# Fall 2006 Pricing Changes - FAQ



## TiVoPony

Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:

TiVo Pricing Q&A
November 10, 2006


Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers. 

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees? 
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans. 

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion. 

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.

Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
A. While your existing second box is grandfathered at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
A.	This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
A.	Weve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.


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## Gai-jin

TiVoPony said:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.

The only good news I see is the quoted above, but the caveat listed concerns me still.


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## Einselen

TiVoPony said:


> Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:
> 
> TiVo Pricing Q&A
> November 10, 2006
> 
> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Thanks Pony, but I am really confused still.

I bought a box from retail maybe three weeks ago and did prepay for 3 years. When the three years are up will I be paying monthly at the fee associated with the three year commitment or will I be bumped up to the fee associated with the one year commitment. My terms said I would go up to then then one year rate but this FAQ says differently. Same with the terms on buying from Tivo or buying from retail. It seems to favor if you buy form Tivo then you get the then rate associated with term length you signed up where retail you get bumped up to the more expensive 1 year rate.

Esentially this is what was going through my mind when I bought my Tivo. Prepay 3 years, at end remember to call in and get $12.95/month for 1 yr then montly at $12.95. Now I am just confused as you can from the paragraph above.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.
> 
> The only good news I see is the quoted above, but the caveat listed concerns me still.


Yeah I wonder how that will all work out. Seems as though you need to call in at or near the end of your 1 yr and talk to the CSR or even Sup and say here is what Pony said could happen, will it happen. Then if they give it to you, yay you! If not then you gotta decide what you wanna do in extending contract or what. At that point might as well get a new box too.


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## Lazlo123

Einselen said:


> Thanks Pony, but I am really confused still.
> 
> I bought a box from retail maybe three weeks ago and did prepay for 3 years. When the three years are up will I be paying monthly at the fee associated with the three year commitment or will I be bumped up to the fee associated with the one year commitment. My terms said I would go up to then then one year rate but this FAQ says differently. Same with the terms on buying from Tivo or buying from retail. It seems to favor if you buy form Tivo then you get the then rate associated with term length you signed up where retail you get bumped up to the more expensive 1 year rate.
> 
> Esentially this is what was going through my mind when I bought my Tivo. Prepay 3 years, at end remember to call in and get $12.95/month for 1 yr then montly at $12.95. Now I am just confused as you can from the paragraph above.


Yes, if i may add, if Tivo wanted to create alignment in the pricing with Retail, why are the terms different at the end of your commitment for a service only plan or a bundled plan?


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## Einselen

Pony

Also it was not mentioned what happend with the MSD rate after the MSD committment. Assuming form the FAQ you would be paying monlthy the rate you just ended at however again with the terms from the website it seems that only applies to Tivo's bundled packages.

I hope this makes sense, it is hard to explain.

P.S. - Mods, can we make this a sticky please


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## timckelley

Bundled vs nonbundled, MSD vs nonMSD, prepay vs monthly, lifetime, lifetime transfers, retail vs from TiVO inc, 1 yr vs 2 yrs vs 3 yrs, ... this is all so confusing. 

My mother-in-law would definitely be scared off by all this complexity, no matter how good a deal it is.

However, I guess I can see you can't make it totally simple either. You said there's been an interest in prepaying, so that's why you offered that option, and it does sound like there's a discount for prepaying.


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## nirisahn

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


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## Gai-jin

nirisahn said:


> Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


Local phone service -- once you're in a plan, you're grandfathered into it until you change it. Shouldn't everything work that way?


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## Einselen

timckelley said:


> You said there's been an interest in prepaying, so that's why you offered that option, and it does sound like there's a discount for prepaying.


There is a discount for new customers. Existing customers get better rate with MSD. Could you imagine a prepay MSD rate?


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## aindik

Gai-jin said:


> Local phone service -- once you're in a plan, you're grandfathered into it until you change it. Shouldn't everything work that way?


Cell phone service is the same. Once your contract expires, you're in month-to-month at the same price you've been paying for the same number of minutes. They have the right to change it on you (that's what month to month means, it's not just freedom for you but freedom for them too), but generally they don't.


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## rainwater

It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.


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## Billy66

Sweet, another increase in price and some serious complication to the process as TiVo struggles to shift the burden of acquisition cost from their marketing department to the consumer. Every other effort to recoup acquisition has failed. I hope this brings the revenue and profits needed. That's the only upside I can see in it.

Billy


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## Einselen

rainwater said:


> It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.


Why did you buy them bundled? Couldn't you have gotten them cheaper by putting them in your account with MSD from the start? (Sorry off topic, if you want you can reply to me in PM)


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## bpurcell

TiVoPony said:


> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


So is this for both retail and direct purchased Tivos? I thought other posts had mentioned that retail Tivos would pay the 1-yr price after the contract, regardless of which year commitment they made. Is that now incorrect?


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## timckelley

rainwater said:


> It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.


When the year is up, couldn't you sign on for a 3 year MSD contract, and then only pay $6.95 per month per TiVo?


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## aridon

So I have my boxes now and am grandfathered. That means when I upgrade I'll need to take a finger in the ass to keep Tivo? Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box? Make me pay the contract breaking fee?

Sorry but your marketing department is nuts. Have them refer to the first rule of marketing a product. KISS.


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## rainwater

timckelley said:


> When the year is up, couldn't you sign on for a 3 year MSD contract, and then only pay $6.95 per month per TiVo?


Because I wouldn't commit to that much for a S2 DT. I will be upgrading to an S3, and having to have 2 or 3 commitments for 3 years is ridiculous. When I was told after one year, 2 of my boxes would be $6.95 with a one-year commitment, and now I am being forced to pay more than double that, then I get a little upset.


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## rainwater

Einselen said:


> Why did you buy them bundled? Couldn't you have gotten them cheaper by putting them in your account with MSD from the start? (Sorry off topic, if you want you can reply to me in PM)


Because they offered good bundled deals that didn't require much upfront costs (no rebate hassles). But now I see it was just a way to screw their customers. If I would of known, I would of paid more upfront and been grandfathered in on the MSD. But now I am just being forced to get rid of the extra boxes.


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## jfh3

rainwater said:


> It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.


Not according to the FAQ:

"The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."

If I understand Pony correctly, you would still be eligible for the $6.95 MSD rate on the existing DT boxes that you own.

After reading the plans and the FAQ, this doesn't seem as bad or complicated as many seem to think.

However, I wish there was another way that might be easier to "hook" a new customer that may not know when they first sign up if they will want the service for longer than a year. Maybe if there was some way you could switch to a longer term contract at the reduced rates before the initial 1-year commitment was up.
Then everybody wins.


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## Einselen

aridon said:


> Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box?


Previosuly the service agreement was tied to the account and not box so if you did 3 yrs perpaid you can trasfer two years and get a S3 if wanted, I doubt that has changed.


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## aindik

aridon said:


> Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box? Make me pay the contract breaking fee?


Perhaps this should be added to the FAQ, but the general consensus appears to be that, with a 3 year agreement, all you're agreeing to is to pay monthly service for three years. On any TiVo box, not necessarily on that box. You can replace your box with a new box at any time (but you have to pay full retail for the box).

After the three years is up, you can go month to month at the same monthly rate that another person can get signing a three year deal at that time, and you will apparently pay the current "three year deal" price for as long as you maintain service, but you can cancel at any time. I wonder if THAT month to month plan is transferrable to another box bought at retail.


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## Einselen

jfh3 said:


> However, I wish there was another way that might be easier to "hook" a new customer that may not know when they first sign up if they will want the service for longer than a year.


Tivo does have the 30 day trial. Within that time they can change plans, maybe the trial should be a bit longer? Is 30 days enough to get one hooked and wanting to do more?

Also selling Tivo should be easy. Most users don't see why Tivo is more then their cable DVR and/or don't want the longer contract. Again with Tivo's 30 days you can get them hooked then. If you are selling it to a friend or family member tell them that if they don't like it then you will help them send it back.


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## zalusky

In the next 3 years I see possible dramatic changes in the landscape as the digital transition accelerates. OTA will disappear unless you get some sort converter and then will have more boxes in the loop.

Cable may/may not but most likely will go all digital where they can and that will require the cable box in the way.

I see the S3 or the Cable/Tivo box becoming much more the preferred choice over S2 boxes as time advances. This was not tru in the last 5 years when you could hook to an antenna or plug straight into the cable outlet. 

All this takes me to the conclusion that prepaying 3 years ons a S2 is a mistake. Maybe two but not three.

Now if they treated it more like satellite where they simply said you have to subscribe to Tivo for three years and if you switch the hardware big deal, I would feel a lot better.


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## Billy66

jfh3 said:


> After reading the plans and the FAQ, this doesn't seem as bad or complicated as many seem to think.


Imagine the dweebs at Best Buy explaining this to your mother. They will screw it up constantly and consumers will be confused as hell. At that point they aren't even sure what tiVo is let alone being able to understand the service plans. the BB folks don't know crap about either, so that should be quite entertaining.


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## rainwater

jfh3 said:


> Not according to the FAQ:
> 
> "The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."


Well, I think that is just a completely false statement because if you read below:



> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Those 2 statements do not match up.


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## Einselen

aindik said:


> You can replace your box with a new box at any time (but you have to pay full retail for the box).


Asusming the rebate terms will stay the same, which most likely they will. For the S3 currently that is not an issue, but projecting forward a year or two, who knows, not even Tivo at this point of time.


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## aindik

zalusky said:


> Now if they treated it more like satellite where they simply said you have to subscribe to Tivo for three years and if you switch the hardware big deal, I would feel a lot better.


That's not in this FAQ, but that's the way I've read posts around here.

Of course, you have to buy the new hardware at full retail price.


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## ajwees41

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees? 
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans. 

Wrong

The price of the S2DT went up $29.

ajwees41


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## jgickler

Pony, please clearify this situation.

I own 4 tivos, one month 2 month @ 6.95, 2 lifetime, and one DT which I bought a bundled package for 1 year prepaid.

When the 1 year prepaid expires, what will be my rate? 

From what I have read elsewhere, it would default to the current rate for the term I agreed to, in this case a 1 year. In the past it was also said that to get the MSD, I would need to commit to at least an additional contract.

So for this unit, are my choices:

1. Pay $19.95 of month to month no commitment

2. Pay $6.95 with a 3 year commitment

3. Pay 13.95 with a 1 year commitment

4. Get a cable company DVR.

The option I was expecting was a Pay $6.95 for a additional 1 year commitment, and the FAQ indicates a $12.95 price which would indicate I would loose the MSD discount if I go month to month with no commitment.


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## 1283

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.


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## timckelley

rainwater said:


> Those 2 statements do not match up.


Good catch.


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## aindik

c3 said:


> TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.


Heh. You would think "What happens if I want to replace my current TiVo DVR with a new TiVo DVR in the middle of my contract" would qualify as a "Frequently Asked Question." It certainly seems like it is.


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## rainwater

c3 said:


> TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.


I think that has been the case for a while. However, it doesn't matter to me, because I can't justify signing up two of my DT units for another 3 years just to keep the $6.95 rate I was promised when I got my bundled units.


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## Einselen

ajwees41 said:


> Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
> A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.
> 
> Wrong
> 
> The price of the S2DT went up $29.
> 
> ajwees41


That it did, but then also the subscription price went down (not for 1 yr, but still). So if you bought a DT before the price change and did 2 or 3 years you would be paying more then if you buy a DT now and do 2 or 3 years.


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## aindik

rainwater said:


> I think that has been the case for a while.


It couldn't be longer than since the introduction of bundled pricing. How long ago was that?

Before that the only options were month to month and lifetime. Lifetime was clearly not transferrable to new hardware, and month to month didn't matter - you could switch boxes whenever you wanted because you didn't have a commitment.


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## jgickler

c3 said:


> TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.


I don't really see how this is an issue. In fact, it almost seems worse.

Lets say I bought a Tivo a year ago, bought it with 1 year prepaid. After 1 year, I start paying 6.95, but no warranty. It dies, I just buy a new one and get rebates, bundled pricing whatever.

Now if I buy that same Tivo today, and after the 1 year I agree to a 3 year contract to get the lowest monthly rate. If it dies after that 1 year commitment, I have to buy a replacement Tivo at full retail price or pay the termination fee, because rebates, bundled pricing etc is only good for new service activations.


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## Billy66

> It couldn't be longer than since the introduction of bundled pricing. How long ago was that?


Not that long. Less than a year I think.


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## ajwees41

Einselen said:


> That it did, but then also the subscription price went down (not for 1 yr, but still). So if you bought a DT before the price change and did 2 or 3 years you would be paying more then if you buy a DT now and do 2 or 3 years.


The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model.

I am just stating that in the S2DT case the cost went up.

What if you can't afford to prepay to get the lower rate?

ajwees41


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## rainwater

It will now cost me $168 more per year under the new terms. Can someone please explain to me how this is cheaper? I would love to know how paying $84 more per year per box is cheaper for me. It must be some new math.


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## KoG

TiVoPony said:


> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Pony,

Does this apply to service only plans? If I buy a 3 year bundle, at the end of the 3 years (and assuming the rates haven't changed) I would then start paying $12.95 month to month. I understand that but what if I got a Tivo from a friend/family and bought a 3 year service only plan? At the end of that 3 years, the current terms and conditions seems to say that I will be switched to a $19.95 month to month rate. Am I reading this right? Thanks.


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## DrewTivo

TiVoPony said:


> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate _on a month to month basis_ once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.



> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


This sounds quite reasonable and should address those concerns. While I worry about the "reserve the right", can I reasonably expect the price never to increase? No. The only concern it causes me is that 12.95 is not the "current applicable monthly fee for a one year commitment" so that at some point, when they raise all prices, there may not be a $12.95 rate to increase 1 or 2 dollars.


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## rainwater

DrewTivo said:


> Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate _on a month to month basis_ once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.


Where are you reading that? It seems to me if you are paying $19.95/month you will continue paying that at a month-to-month basis.


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## Gai-jin

DrewTivo said:


> Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate _on a month to month basis_ once your three year commitment is up.


2 issues -- this still doesn't clarify if it's correct for service only subscriptions, since the terms on the site are different for the 2 sub types.

Also, this means that someone on a 1 year 12.95 package can expect the price to go up to 19.95 at the end of that one year. Or just as bad, go to $13.95 if the box then qualifies for MSD.


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## Phantom Gremlin

nirisahn said:


> Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


Others have already responded, but I want to "pile on" because I think you're flat out wrong and I want to make that clear.

I signed on with Verizon for cellular service in around 1998 for a $20/month plan. *I AM STILL ON THAT PLAN!!!* Despite the fact that I got a new phone from them (at a discounted price) a few years ago for making a new 2 year commitment *AT THE OLD PRICE and UNDER THE OLD TERMS.* They have even *ADDED* features to my old plan. I now have "Unlimited IN Calling" which didn't exist when I first signed up.

Imagine that, a giant phone company that is far less willing to screw over their existing customers than TiVo is.


----------



## jgickler

DrewTivo said:


> Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate _on a month to month basis_ once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.
> 
> This sounds quite reasonable and should address those concerns. While I worry about the "reserve the right", can I reasonably expect the price never to increase? No. The only concern it causes me is that 12.95 is not the "current applicable monthly fee for a one year commitment" so that at some point, when they raise all prices, there may not be a $12.95 rate to increase 1 or 2 dollars.


And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.


----------



## lessd

TiVo should set up a gift program for people to give a gift of a TiVo and not have to be concerned about what happens three years from now. The giver would pay TiVo $299 and get a TiVo that he could give to someone and they could put it into their account without giving TiVo a credit card. At the end of three years TiVo could send out a letter explaining the options that the owner has. 
TiVo is missing a big opportunity if they don't set up some sort of gift program that has a single cost for the giver and no cost or credit card requirement for the receiver as nobody wants to give a gift with strings attached.

That my 2 cents


----------



## Einselen

jgickler said:


> And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.


That box as long as credit card info is kept accurate, etc. will only be $6.95/month per Pony's post:



Pony from FAQ said:


> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.


The only thing is you still can not cancel that subscription until after the 1 yr due to the committment.


----------



## jgickler

Einselen said:


> That box as long as credit card info is kept accurate, etc. will only be $6.95/month per Pony's post:
> 
> The only thing is you still can not cancel that subscription until after the 1 yr due to the committment.


That is not what it says. It says if your are currently a month to month subscriber, your price will not change.

I am talking about a prepaid 1 year subscription that would qualify for MSD AFTER the 1 year period. This is not addressed by the FAQ, and where it may be addressed there is contradictary information.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

TiVoPony said:


> Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:
> 
> TiVo Pricing Q&A
> November 10, 2006
> 
> Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
> A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.
> 
> Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
> A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.
> 
> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.
> 
> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.
> 
> Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
> A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.
> 
> Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
> A. While your existing second box is grandfathered at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
> A.	This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
> A.	Weve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.


I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram.


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## timckelley

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram.


I personally think a Visio diagram is a very nice idea. I think I would be a lot less confused if we had one. And people keep bringing up special situations they think aren't addressed, and those could easily be added to Visio. Plus it should be easy enough to prevent contradictions within Visio.


----------



## 1283

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram.


I think we need to avoiding quoting long messages.


----------



## rodalpho

They've already got _us_ in their pocket, heck we're posting on TCF, we're the hardcore enthusiasts. It's interesting how they try to spin this as a good thing for consumers by making the new pricing plan as confusing as possible. Personally, I don't feel purposefully confusing your customers is good or ethical marketing, but I guess we'll see if this flies.

Cellphones certainly get away with it. But of course EVERYBODY hates their cellphone provider.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Pony,

You addressed earlier that those you have done the VIP Lifetime transfer would be eligible for the $6.95 MSD rate after the 1yr pre-pay.

This is well and good for the S3 I already own.

What if I was to by another via the TCF store today (and did the VIP lifetime xfer)? Would the same apply to the S2 that would be getting the 1yr pre-paid?

Thanks,


----------



## Einselen

jgickler said:


> That is not what it says. It says if your are currently a month to month subscriber, your price will not change.
> 
> I am talking about a prepaid 1 year subscription that would qualify for MSD AFTER the 1 year period. This is not addressed by the FAQ, and where it may be addressed there is contradictary information.


We might be talking about different things here.

I am talking about say a month ago I got another Tivo and added it to my account at $6.95/month. At that time I had to do a one year committment with it. After one year my rate on that box will still be $6.95/month.

Now relooking at your post you stated one year prepay MSD. Well there is no such thing as one year prepaid MSD so I am guessing you prepaid for a box for 1 yr and now looking what will happen with that box. If this is the case then correct it is not covered by the FAQ.


----------



## DrewTivo

rainwater said:


> Where are you reading that? It seems to me if you are paying $19.95/month you will continue paying that at a month-to-month basis.


I got it from this:



> if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time.


I probably wasn't clear in my post--I meant that you get the $12.95 rate--on a month to month basis--after your three-year commitment. That is better than having to enter into _another_ three year committment to keep the lowest rate. Instead, you can go month-to-month at that point.

Believe me, I much preferred the old plans. All I was pointing out is that it's not quite as bad in this regard as it originally appeared.


----------



## DrewTivo

jgickler said:


> And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.


This strikes me as an odd case. It means you overpaid for the MSD machine on the prepay, because you were paying as if there were no MSD. Presumably, however, most people didn't do that, and instead applied the prepaid to the new machine, and put and old one, with no commitment, on MSD at $6.95, and will continue to get that price.



> Also, this means that someone on a 1 year 12.95 package can expect the price to go up to 19.95 at the end of that one year.


Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?


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## MediaLivingRoom

TiVo management is not intouch with its client base, like TiVoPony and alike... I know TiVoPony has a new position with in TiVo, but it looks like TiVo Management is killing the spirit of the front line people to interact with this community. TiVoPony and others were always there for its users. Now it's sad that TiVo management messed with a good thing.


----------



## Gai-jin

DrewTivo said:


> Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?


You can still today buy a 1 year 12.95/mo commitment with refurb hardware from tivo's website.


----------



## nirisahn

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Others have already responded, but I want to "pile on" because I think you're flat out wrong and I want to make that clear.
> 
> I signed on with Verizon for cellular service in around 1998 for a $20/month plan. *I AM STILL ON THAT PLAN!!!* Despite the fact that I got a new phone from them (at a discounted price) a few years ago for making a new 2 year commitment *AT THE OLD PRICE and UNDER THE OLD TERMS.* They have even *ADDED* features to my old plan. I now have "Unlimited IN Calling" which didn't exist when I first signed up.
> 
> Imagine that, a giant phone company that is far less willing to screw over their existing customers than TiVo is.


Are you paying the same for cable or satellite (whichever you have) as you did 8 years ago? Probably not. Has your landline bill stayed the same? Mine hasn't. Even though I'm mistaken about cell phones, I stand by my original premise. Prices go up. That's life. If you don't like the price, don't buy the service. The supplier will eventually get the message. With more alternatives to Tivo coming down the pike every day, they're either going to find a way to stay competitive, or they're going to go out of business. The market will decide. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.


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## E94Allen

I am wondering if someone choose 1 yrs $19.95 and few months later relized cannot afford it anymore and want to switch to 2 years or 3 years instead?


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## MediaLivingRoom

E94Allen said:


> I am wondering if someone choose 1 yrs $19.95 and few months later relized cannot afford it anymore and want to switch to 2 years or 3 years instead?


Maybe a new contract with a new start date.


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## Gai-jin

nirisahn said:


> Are you paying the same for cable or satellite (whichever you have) as you did 8 years ago? Probably not. Has your landline bill stayed the same? Mine hasn't. Even though I'm mistaken about cell phones, I stand by my original premise. Prices go up. That's life. If you don't like the price, don't buy the service. The supplier will eventually get the message. With more alternatives to Tivo coming down the pike every day, they're either going to find a way to stay competitive, or they're going to go out of business. The market will decide. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.


Does your cable bill generally go up 54% (effectively) overnight?


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## rainwater

DrewTivo said:


> I probably wasn't clear in my post--I meant that you get the $12.95 rate--on a month to month basis--after your three-year commitment.


Yeah, but people that paid much more on 1 and 2 year commitments shouldn't be penalized for it by having to keep a much higher rate after the contract is over.


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## Gai-jin

rainwater said:


> Yeah, but people that paid much more on 1 and 2 year commitments shouldn't be penalized for it by having to keep a much higher rate after the contract is over.


Agreed. At the end of your contract is where the ripoff begins. In that case, anyway.


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## jeffk

Let me first begin by saying I have been in LOVE with my tivo for about 4 years, and have recommended tivo to many of my friends. I cannot do this any more, based soley on the pricing of service. It was always a hard sell, on the service, but with it going up so dramatically [without a multi year commitment], I am hearing from all my friends with tivo, and cannot blame them, that this is ridiculous, and how can tivo survive with these new prices. Now, on to the multi year discounts, yes, discounts are ok, but raising the prices so you can offer discounts is not, everyone already hates contracts, and this is what you have introduced. I don't understand why you introduced contracts, tivo loyalty is high, there is very little churn, and well contracts, and lock ins are always meant to keep people, lock them in so they won't leave, this is not needed here, so in reality the price is 19.95 a month, because most people will not commit for 3 years up front.

Your logic is also flawed for this, you say it was done to get the boxes cheaper to the customer, and state the example of one year of service, plus the box being cheaper now, while this may be true for series 2 purchases, its is entirely bad news for series 3 purchases. I myself wanted to purchase a series 3, and a coworker was all about purchasing a series 3 as well, but once he saw the new plans, he says there is noway he is buyign a series 3, it's just way too much upfront cost, and I agree. I myself am doubting the purchase of a series 3 currently all because of these price changes.

I love you tivo, and couldn't live without my tivo, but with these pricing changes, I might have to look elsewhere for a HD DVR. While I personally can [not everyone has the luxury], transfer my lifetime to a series 3 machine, I just think with these new pricing schemes tivo is in for a world of hurt, and trouble, and question if $500 for lifetime is really worht it, because I don't see people goign for tivo with such a high out of pocket cost. The sole reason many people i know havn't gotten tivo is because of the service fee, and now it is increased. It seems with hdtv dvr's being thrown at consumers through cable companies [though they REALLY SUCK], for people withotu an experience with tivo, its hard to justify the 19.95 a month or to commit for 3 years.

Just my opinion. I still love tivo, and hope I am wrong. But I really am on the fence about the series 3 now, and know a few peopel alone at work who have changed their mind 100% about getting a tivo3 now [faithful tivo subscribers too].

Thanks,

Jeff


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## ChuckyBox

After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.

(Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)


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## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.
> 
> (Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)


I'm glad I got rid of my TiVos 6 months ago, so I can see very clear what was explained in a FAQ. Basically the new model gives you free or near free hardware in exchange for a contract. Contracts are cheaper if duration is longer. After your contract expires you are free to get any kind of promo deal for a new hardware or if you want to pay and get new hardware during a contract term you can do it too. Very similar to cell phone model. Don't see anything wrong with that. The only way it hurts old customers is that it somewhat devaluated value of the hardware (I have 2 TiVos sitting in a closet that I was going to give away, but now I'll just put them at a curb). Hope this new model works for TiVo because everything else they tried so far didn't.


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.
> 
> (Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)


Chucky, I understand you are a tivo fan, and blinded by your enthusiasm for a great product. I can't hold your 'fanboi' status against you, we all are, or we wouldn't be here on forums dedicated to the product. However, it seems you're a little more blind than the rest of us.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you're one of the only people defending tivo, among a board full of tivo 'fanboi's' ? Perhaps it's not everyone else who's wrong?


----------



## xdroccax

DrewTivo said:


> This strikes me as an odd case. It means you overpaid for the MSD machine on the prepay, because you were paying as if there were no MSD. Presumably, however, most people didn't do that, and instead applied the prepaid to the new machine, and put and old one, with no commitment, on MSD at $6.95, and will continue to get that price.


This is not an odd case. I'm in the same situation and if I've read correctly, rainwater's in the same boat. I have a S2 ST Lifetime, and the MAIN reason I bought the 1yr prepay S2 DT bundle was because it was cheaper then paying full price for the DT and get the MSD $6.95 price right away. I was also told at the time of purchase AND activation that once the 1yr prepay was up, I COULD begin the $6.95 MSD pricing because my ST Lifetime qualified the DT.



DrewTivo said:


> Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?


I think your statement hit it on the nail for a lot of folks.

On a side note, I believe FAQ address NEW customers very clearly. It however does not address those with existing and prepay bundles.


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## Phantom Gremlin

jeffk said:


> Let me first begin by saying I have been in LOVE with my tivo for about 4 years, and have recommended tivo to many of my friends. I cannot do this any more, based soley on the pricing of service. It was always a hard sell, on the service, but with it going up so dramatically [without a multi year commitment], I am hearing from all my friends with tivo, and cannot blame them, that this is ridiculous, and how can tivo survive with these new prices.


The above has been said before, but it's worth repeating. Over and over and over and over and over until TiVo starts to understand how badly they've screwed up. Or until they go down the drain. Whichever comes first.

I also have been an evangelist in the past, and have convinced quite a few people to sign up. But now I don't want to understand the subtleties of the plans, I don't want to understand the subtleties of the pricing. I don't want to understand the long term implications of the various time durations of commitment. I don't want to understand the value proposition (or lack thereof).

I'm sure I COULD understand it if I wanted to, but I DON'T WANT TO. It's too complicated. As if TiVo the DVR wasn't complicated enough in and of itself (to the average TV viewer).

Fortunately I have 4 active DirecTiVos and so am mostly unaffected by this debacle. I was hoping to buy an S3 just for HD, but that's a totally different debacle.


----------



## mattack

Phantom Gremlin said:


> As if TiVo the DVR wasn't complicated enough in and of itself (to the average TV viewer).


Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?

Don't compare it to a VCR -- I can _almost_ see how someone would consider one of those complicated.

But *especially* if someone is willing to live with the Tivo mindset (set season pass, be happy with shows being deleted when it gets full), it couldn't be much simpler... and the elegant/simple UI is exactly what a lot of us like about it.

(Don't get me wrong -- I'd LOVE a lot more _optional_ tweakability, and would pay for it. But because I can't get that, that's one reason I got a non-Tivo hard drive/DVD-recorder to use ALONG with my Tivos, which provides a lot of the functionality that's missing.. [but also is not as reliable])


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> Doesn't it seem odd to you that you're one of the only people defending tivo, among a board full of tivo 'fanboi's' ? Perhaps it's not everyone else who's wrong?


Actually, given the number of people who participate in these fora, I take the lack of general outrage as a sign that most people get it and realize that the changes are no big deal and don't even affect most of us. Compared to the outrage over the price of the S3 and all the prognostications of TiVo doom over that (despite the fact that by all appearances the S3 continues to sell well), this is positively mild. There are a few people who seem to have lost the ability to take in new information and apply it, but that is, I guess, to be expected any time anything changes.

But let's take a stroll down memory lane, shall we?



Pony said:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


Which some clever person quoted and then responded:



clever person said:


> So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.


Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?

Then there was this:



rainwater quoting jfh3 quoting the FAQ said:


> Not according to the FAQ:
> 
> "The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."


To which rainwater responded: 


> Well, I think that is just a completely false statement because if you read below:





rainwater quoting from the FAQ said:


> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.





rainwater again said:


> Those 2 statements do not match up.


No, they don't. Because one is about existing customers with existing hardware, a group of which rainwater is a member, and the second applies to new purchases under the new plan, a group of which rainwater is not yet a member.

I could go on, but there is gin, a nice Italian dinner with wine, and a TiVo with some unwatched meerkats all waiting for me at home.


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## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Hope this new model works for TiVo because everything else they tried so far didn't.


I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that I've agreed with two of your posts recently. Are you setting me up? Is the TiVo-paranoia starting to affect me?

But, yes, I think this is TiVo's last, best hope to drive standalone subscriptions. They've got new hardware, they've got distribution, they've got new marketing in place, it is the holiday season -- if they can't make this work, it may just not be possible to push SA subs beyond 2 million or so.

Now, what was I saying about that gin...


----------



## rainwater

ChuckyBox said:


> Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?


Actually, just one box alone is going to cost me $84 more per year now. I have several TiVos on the $19.95 bundle deal because I was told that once it was over I could switch them to $12.95 and $6.95/month respectively. Now that is not the case. In order to get $12.95/month on just one of the boxes I have to now commit to 3 years. That is ridiculous that the only way to stay on a $12.95 plan is to have already been on one before. So buy paying them more per month I am being told I have to continue paying that because I didn't buy the boxes at retail. Thats a great way to screw your customers by making promises that they aren't going to keep according to this faq.


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## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?


Of course, had you been clever enough to actually read my post quoting pony, you would have noted the quoted portion was the only portion I did not find objecitonable. But then, you'd actually have to read the post to get that.


----------



## Bernie33

I have a Series 2 DT. Have a new HDTV. So I can now buy a S3DT for $800 + $12.95/mo with a three year, prepaid commitment. Or I can use the dual tuner HD DVR from the cable company for $9.95/month with no commitment, and no upfront charges, nothing to buy and they service the unit. All this before the telephone company is in a position to announce their competitive offering in this area yet so we don't know know how that will impact prices. 

There is absolutely no doubt that the Tivo user interface is much, much nicer. But from a cost comparison point of view, there is no comparison. If I buy a S3DT I start out at least $800 behind and get further behind every single month for ever.

What is wrong with this picture?


----------



## MungoJerrie

rainwater said:


> Actually, just one box alone is going to cost me $84 more per year now. I have several TiVos on the $19.95 bundle deal because I was told that once it was over I could switch them to $12.95 and $6.95/month respectively. Now that is not the case. In order to get $12.95/month on just one of the boxes I have to now commit to 3 years. That is ridiculous that the only way to stay on a $12.95 plan is to have already been on one before. So buy paying them more per month I am being told I have to continue paying that because I didn't buy the boxes at retail. Thats a great way to screw your customers by making promises that they aren't going to keep according to this faq.


You are exactly right about that. Before these price changes, the common understanding was that when your 12-month commitment expired, you could go to $12.95/mo. So by "reserving their right to change price/terms without prior notice" they've pulled that rug out from under everyone. I can understand tivo's need to push longer commitments by enticing with lower monthly rates, but MSD has always been a flat $6.95/mo and at that rate I was willing to put a tivo in nearly every room of my house. By changing MSD to a $6 "discount" from your current monthly rate, that is where they have made owning more tivos less attractive and that is a big mistake...because frankly I think MRV is tivo's killer app.


----------



## 1283

Bernie33 said:


> What is wrong with this picture?


Having to pay Comcast $70/month for their DVR is what's wrong.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> Having to pay Comcast $70/month for their DVR is what's wrong.


Wow, I've never heard of a cable company charging as much as tivo's monthly fee. You sure you didn't piss somebody off at comcast?


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

mattack said:


> Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?


Sorry. I can see how my remark was misleading.

TiVo is *easy to use*. My young children have no problems scrolling to recorded programs they want to view. They have no problems setting season passes. Etc.

TiVo is *complicated to explain* to Joe Sixpack, the average adult TV viewer, whose only frame of reference is the VCR.

Even when most adults see TiVo demonstrated they still don't understand the advantages. They have to use it for a while before they "grok" it. I've been one of many people that have criticized TiVo's poor marketing. But, in their defense, it's probably just a very tough product to market well. Word of mouth is probably one of the most effective ways.

Now add the pricing lunacy on top of that and things are very complicated indeed.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that I've agreed with two of your posts recently. Are you setting me up? Is the TiVo-paranoia starting to affect me?


Happens to the best of us. I'm finding your latest posts more balanced and reasonable too.  But seriously, I don't understand these "I love TiVo but do not want to commit for 3 years posts". I understand people who are "fanboys" or "tivangelists" (I was one myself years ago). I understand people who find alternative DVRs to be of better value. I understand people who say that S3 is way overpriced compare to competitions. But for a life of me I don't understand why people who honestly believe that TiVo has the best DVR available are so ticked off by minor price and/or commitment increase. When my favorite channel went from Dish to DirecTV I had to sub to a new provider, get new hardware and extra sub cost just to get the same programming that I had before. Did I like it? Of course not. But the bottom line was - I wanted this programming and it is worth it to me to have my house look like NASA center with all these satellite antennas (I had to keep Dish because my second favorite channel is still on Dish only). I don't get it - either you believe that TiVo is the best or you don't. If you do, then pay for it. If you don't, then move on to somebody else. There are plenty of cheaper and (in my opinion) better alternatives. TiVo has been losing money and market share for 7 years now. They can't do it forever. What good it would do to you TiVo "lovers" if they go out of business? And if you are open minded and didn't pledge allegiance to TiVo, why do you care?


----------



## Einselen

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Even when most adults see TiVo demonstrated they still don't understand the advantages. They have to use it for a while before they "grok" it. I've been one of many people that have criticized TiVo's poor marketing. But, in their defense, it's probably just a very tough product to market well. Word of mouth is probably one of the most effective ways.


Way back in the day wasn't TiVo in Best Buy as an in store display? I am sure Best Buy employees were mistrained and confused people on it so explains why no more, or am I just thinking of some other DVR product?


----------



## tbeckner

Bernie33 said:


> What is wrong with this picture?


Everything!

I was going to reactivate my SVR-2000 and buy a DT, but when I went to reactivate a few days ago I was shocked. The SVR-2000 will not be reactivated, but used as a digitial VCR like it has been since 2003 when I bought my first of five DirecTiVos; and of course I will not purchase the DT.

Boy, am I glad that I have five DirecTiVos all hacked for MRV, download/uploads, and longer Live TV buffers. The charges for four of those DirecTiVos from DirecTV are lower than the cost of just one SA TiVo with a one year contract.

All I can say is that the TiVo folks are out of their minds. :down: :down:


----------



## kido

Please note.

If you are already paying for digital cable, then, yes, the cable dvr is an excellent deal. Much cheaper than any of TiVo's plans (except the 3 year pre pay bundle). Please, immediately call your cable company and sign up as fast as possible.

Everyone else who is subscribed to only standard cable and are happy with your current lineup and don't need or want HDTV, a S2 TiVo will save you money if the difference in price between your current package and digital cable plus dvr rental is greater than $19.95 per month.

*Real world example for SDTV via Comcast Chicago*

_comcast *least* expensive package for DVR service_
Digital Classic $59.48
DVR $9.99
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$69.47 per month

_comcast *most* expensive package for TiVo_
Standard Cable $49.49
Worst possible deal from TIVO (S2DT 1 yr bundle) $19.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$69.44 per month

_comcast *least* expensive package for TiVo_
Standard Cable $49.49
Best deal from TIVO (3 yr pre pay) $8.31
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$57.80 per month

Look at that. Worst case scenario and TiVo's cheaper by 3 cents per month.  If I go for the 3 year pre-pay option, I pay $57.80 per month, a savings of $11.67 per month or $420.12 over 3 years. Plus, I own the S2DT TiVo.

Let's look at HDTV.

If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.

A $799 S3 allows you to watch these HDTV digital signals; however, to map those HDTV digital stations to their analog equivalents, you need a couple of CableCards from your cable company, which you can lease for around $1.50 per month.

*Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago*

_comcast *least* expensive package for HD DVR service_
Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
HDTV $5.00
DVR $9.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$74.47 per month

_comcast *least* expensive package with TiVo_
Standard Cable $49.49
2 cable cards $1.50
best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$59.30 per month

So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.

Wait, there's more.

Let's say I only care about the major networks and I live in an area which receives OTA signals. I can use the tuners on the S3 plus an antenna to get local channels in HDTV for $8.31 per month, which saves $66.16 per month over cable DVR, which makes the break even point just over 1 year.

So, cable dvr is $70 per month at a minimum with digital cable. If you have channels you want that are only available on digital cable, then the cable company has pretty made up your mind for you. Just be sure you really need digital cable to get the channels you are interested in.

If you only want access to standard cable, a S2 is a much better deal.

Interested in HDTV for local channels and other popular cable stations? A S3 will pay for itself over digital cable dvr in about 4 years, probably less.

Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.

Oh, and the savings with TiVo only increase with multiple DVRs.


----------



## larrs

kido said:


> Let's look at HDTV.
> 
> If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Wrong, oh wrong.
> 
> 1. In almost all cases, the only HDTV you can get by only getting basic cable is the local channels. ESPN, TNT, etc. are always scrambled.
> 
> 2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable (the above channels are still scrambled even if the would).
> 
> 3. And lastly, even if you skip the cable cards and opt to just get the locals in HD, Tivo cannot map them for you without #2 because the Tvio doesn't know what frequency the cable company has them on in the system (and many cable companies move them around).


----------



## larrs

Bernie33 said:


> I have a Series 2 DT. Have a new HDTV. So I can now buy a S3DT for $800 + $12.95/mo with a three year, prepaid commitment. Or I can use the dual tuner HD DVR from the cable company for $9.95/month with no commitment, and no upfront charges, nothing to buy and they service the unit. All this before the telephone company is in a position to announce their competitive offering in this area yet so we don't know know how that will impact prices.
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that the Tivo user interface is much, much nicer. But from a cost comparison point of view, there is no comparison. If I buy a S3DT I start out at least $800 behind and get further behind every single month for ever.
> 
> What is wrong with this picture?


It appears to me that it is at least in a way. It makes getting the Tivo service via your cable company's box simple, and cheaper.


----------



## 1283

larrs said:


> 2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable.


Comcast does, two for $1.50 in my area.


----------



## Einselen

I was thinking that maybe should have an option to disable TTG and that would help you save monthly on your boxes. This was a feature that Tivo was thinking about charging for. The thing is this would have to be across every Tivo on the account and I am not sure if it would or would not include MRV.

Personally that is what really sold me on Tivo. Right now I have Tivo at school which has a movie channel and in the past few weeks I have had the Tivo I have recorded, transfered and burned a number of movies. Also I can not count the number of movies on TV I have done the same. Movies on TV isn't all that great, but strip out the commercials and you got yourself a nice DVD, something I would easily pay a few bucks to own. I also have burned to DVD a few shows and specials like David Blaine, etc.

I wouldn't mind having TTG as an option, as long as it is something I don't have to pay for and already have it included and it would just be a savings. Thoughts, comments?


----------



## 1283

Another cost comparison example. I've had Comcast limited basic for the past 13 years. Not interested in other channels, but I do want HD.

Comcast DVR: $70/month ($15 limited basic, $35 expanded basic, $10 digital classic, $10 DVR)

with TiVo S3: $16.50/month ($15 limited basic, $1.50 CableCards)

I can take the difference of $53.50/month to spend on TiVo. S3 from TCS $680 + S1 lifetime from eBay $300 + VIP transfer $199 = $1179. $1179 / $53.50 = 22 months. Let's just say two years. At the end of two years, I have a S3 with lifetime worth many hundreds of dollars.

If I do want to have all of the available non-premium HD channels, I can add $10 for digital classic. $1179 / $43.50 = 27 months. I had this for a few weeks after getting the S3, but I canceled it because I spent too much time watching re-runs on TNTHD.


----------



## Einselen

For cost comparison I wanted a DVR for my dorm room. For me to get it through the cable company I would have to upgrade my cable at $12/month (was $7 last year) to digital which would get me the music stations and 7 additional channels, all of which I have little use for and then $6/month for the DVR. That is $18/month this year or last year would have been $13/month.

I got a great deal on my Tivo, $50 + tax OTD, $150 Tivo MIR, $30 CompUSA Rebate and then 3 years of service for $299. That comes out to about $179 or $4.97/month. I know this was rare and odd for the deal, but still was my situation. Even without the great deal still better to go with Tivo I believe even with the new pricing plans. Why? You get waht you pay for. Enough said on that for now.

Now in 7 months or so I will be out working etc. I am guessing I will have basic basic cable. The most basic I can get. If I did that with cable company I would have no DVR. Also because I own the Tivo box I can modify it and upgrade the drive. So my plan is hopefully take some holiday money, buy a larger drive, bake and replace and in the Spring Semester start collecting TV shows. That way even with basic basic cable I will have things I will want to watch. I will also be able to if I want not have cable for a little bit if start up costs for apt, etc. is too much.

Another great thing about Tivo is if you move, the box comes with you. Can't say that about your cable DVR (unless you are mocing within the service area). So all these shows I am collecting on my Tivo, even if I don't upgrade, I will still be able to watch without losing. Meaning when I do move and wait for the cable guy to show up and activate my cable at least I will still have TV. Ahh that is nice. Might confuse the cable guy at first too, lol.

I am not agreeing with the new pricing. Heck we all hate uncertainty and to get the rates we could have last week we have to commit to 3 years which sucks, but good news is the service is tied to the account. Sure you will probably lose the rebate option (if there is one) but for me I won't be getting HD anytime soon and when I do I don't think I will care too much about $150 rebate (I could be wrong) for the S3. The new pricing plan does hurt my wallet some, but I think because I have seen what Tivo can do and what other DVRs can (or mostly can not) I think the extra cost and/or commitment is worth it.

Love it or hate it if you are a huge Tivo fan this won't make you dump all your Tivos, you may cut back, but not by much. Just my 2.5 cents.


----------



## Einselen

I also think Tivo enthusist (like most on this forum) will reject the price change more then the average consumer. Most consumers don't know the term, the ins and outs, the pricing, etc. like those here. Sure they will notice a change, but because they don't know all that there was before they won't be as upset. Also besides the one little discrepency with the terms buying online from Tivo and buying from retail now match up. It is a whole lot confusing for the consumers to purchase. Again the new plan also is preventing people from going to get a new box and service every year for $83.40. I wonder how much that was costing Tivo. Overall I trust Tivo and the bean counters looked at all the numbers and did all the lovely business calculations I am learning and trying to remember and found out the Expected Value of these new plans are higher then the Expected Value of the old plans. Sure Tivo has not done well at all with making money, but look at Amazon. Also Tivo has not failed yet and Tivo is still setting themselves apart from competators (MRV, TTG, TivoCast, HME, etc.). If Tivo had just kept the S1 as the main line of product they would have been sunk years ago, but they are being inventive and as long as they do that then surviving should not be too tough.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

c3 said:


> TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.


Would you please tell me how you know this? Do you have a link to the official policy on TiVo's site?


----------



## 1283

DCIFRTHS said:


> Would you please tell me how you know this? Do you have a link to the official policy on TiVo's site?


TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723

Q. Can I transfer an existing monthly service-only contract or bundled service contract to new hardware? Suppose I get a box from retail or my cousin or eBay and want to switch service. Or I buy a shiny new Series3?

A. Yes. We call this a "Service Number Change" in Manage My Account and you can handle this transaction yourself at any time by going to http://www.tivo.com/manage/

This option is available today on monthly service-only contracts, and will still be available for all plans (except Product Lifetime) once the new pricing options go into effect.

Note that the old unit will no longer have service, which means it probably will have limited or no function.

Note also that the balance of your service commitment is unchanged, and transfers to the new hardware as well.

Suppose, for example, you purchase a bundled service package with an 80-hour Series2 DVR and a three year commitment at $16.95 per month. After 17 months you want to switch your service to a new Series3. You can do that. You'll purchase the new Series3 at retail, use Manage My Account to change your TiVo Service Number on your contract, and now your Series3 is activated at $16.95 per month, with 19 months left on your service commitment. Your Series2 unit will no longer have service.

Note that your Series3 unit would probably NOT be eligible for any rebate (if applicable), since our rebates typically require a new service activation.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

c3 said:


> TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723 ...


Cool. I didn't read in any of Pony's posts where he said this is changing, so hopefully it remains in effect.

I don't have a problem committing for a year. It's a two year commitment that I have trouble with, but I _might_ go for it as long as I can swap out the box. I like to upgrade my hardware...frequently


----------



## Bill McNeal

What is unfortunate is that Pony justified monthly fee increases by lowering up-front costs for the box, however this does not apply to S3 buyers. We appear to be most adversely impacted by this change.


----------



## Bill McNeal

kido said:


> *Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago*
> 
> _comcast *least* expensive package for HD DVR service_
> Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
> HDTV $5.00
> DVR $9.99
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> $74.47 per month
> 
> _comcast *least* expensive package with TiVo_
> Standard Cable $49.49
> 2 cable cards $1.50
> best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> $59.30 per month
> 
> So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.


Real world examples like this are very helpful. Can we use Comcast's standard cable to receive HDTV for both Comcast's DVR and TiVo? That would reduce the monthly savings by $10 for Comcast customers.


----------



## bidger

larrs said:


> 2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable.





c3 said:


> Comcast does, two for $1.50 in my area.


Time-Warner doesn't.


----------



## Dajad

Since TiVo doesn't ship products to Canada but still supports and accepts subscriptions from Canada, if we purchase a TiVo from a third party such as Weaknees, does Tivo recover the costs or give us some kind of rebate to get the same net net TiVo box prices as U.S. customers? Or do we still have to pay the same old unit costs and the new higher subscription rates?

...Dale


----------



## kido

Bill McNeal said:


> What is unfortunate is that Pony justified monthly fee increases by lowering up-front costs for the box, however this does not apply to S3 buyers. We appear to be most adversely impacted by this change.


but wouldn't S3 owners be the most likely to commit to a 3 year plan? Who would buy an S3 to only use for a year or two?


----------



## PhillyGuy

kido said:


> Let's look at HDTV.
> 
> If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.
> 
> A $799 S3 allows you to watch these HDTV digital signals; however, to map those HDTV digital stations to their analog equivalents, you need a couple of CableCards from your cable company, which you can lease for around $1.50 per month.
> 
> *Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago*
> 
> _comcast *least* expensive package for HD DVR service_
> Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
> HDTV $5.00
> DVR $9.99
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> $74.47 per month
> 
> _comcast *least* expensive package with TiVo_
> Standard Cable $49.49
> 2 cable cards $1.50
> best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> $59.30 per month
> 
> So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.
> 
> Wait, there's more.
> 
> Let's say I only care about the major networks and I live in an area which receives OTA signals. I can use the tuners on the S3 plus an antenna to get local channels in HDTV for $8.31 per month, which saves $66.16 per month over cable DVR, which makes the break even point just over 1 year.
> 
> So, cable dvr is $70 per month at a minimum with digital cable. If you have channels you want that are only available on digital cable, then the cable company has pretty made up your mind for you. Just be sure you really need digital cable to get the channels you are interested in.
> 
> If you only want access to standard cable, a S2 is a much better deal.
> 
> Interested in HDTV for local channels and other popular cable stations? A S3 will pay for itself over digital cable dvr in about 4 years, probably less.
> 
> Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.
> 
> Oh, and the savings with TiVo only increase with multiple DVRs.


I think you are stretching it a little bit. Your example may be true for Comcast Chicago, but in a majority of places, you do not get any digital channels (other than local stations) with a standard analog package. If you want to receive ESPN-HD or any of the premium digital channels, you have to upgrade to the digital package and some times they even charge you an HDTV fee. Some places don't even give out cable cards if you have a standard package. Then you can't use Tivo guide data for the HD channels. Also picture quality tends to be worse as well with analog service.


----------



## PhillyGuy

Bill McNeal said:


> Real world examples like this are very helpful.  Can we use Comcast's standard cable to receive HDTV for both Comcast's DVR and TiVo? That would reduce the monthly savings by $10 for Comcast customers.


Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.


----------



## Gai-jin

kido said:


> Please note.
> 
> If you are already paying for digital cable, then, yes, the cable dvr is an excellent deal. Much cheaper than any of TiVo's plans (except the 3 year pre pay bundle). Please, immediately call your cable company and sign up as fast as possible.
> <snip>
> Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.


Yeah, um, I'm going to have to disagree.

With my local cable co -- Basic cable $40 ish a month. Digital box and DVR, with Starz & Encore, plus right now HBO free for a year, $15. Total $55. Want HD? Add another $5. *$60 total *

With S2 Tivo -- $40 for cable, $20 for Tivo. long term contract required. No premium channels included. *$60 total*

With S3 Tivo -- $40 for cable. $2 for cable card. $2 for second cable card. $20 for tivo. Total $64. Then add another $800 for equipment, & the required long term contract. Let's say a tivo has an average lifespan of 4 years. $800/48=16.66/mo. Total cost *$80.66*

Which looks like the better deal?


----------



## Gai-jin

samo said:


> minor price and/or commitment increase.


Let's see, take your pick between a *54% price increase*, effectively overnight, or a *200%* increase in commitment length. Which do you consider minor? Would you mind if your phone, cable, electric, rent, car payment, and other bills went up 54% overnight?

Personally, I won't sign a 3 year commitment to anything. I do 1 year at most with a cell phone provider. I sign a year lease when I move into an apartment. No contract required for my cable, internet, home phone, or most anything else.

Pick any other company for this example. You've been a customer for 4 or more years. You spend 2-3 times the minimum for their services. You pay your bill on the same day every month. You stop in and talk to them one day (maybe to add more service...), and they say _"We don't trust you to stay with us, so we want you to sign a contract that you'll continue to be our customer and pay on time for the next 3 years, or else we're going to *raise your price 54%.*"_

What would you do?


----------



## jtlytle

I was hoping they will bring back Lifetime service plan!


----------



## dianebrat

mattack said:


> Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?


I was stunned to find one of those people was my mom...

I gave it to her with lifetime 2 years ago for Mothers Day.
We spent 1.5 years with her trying to get used to it, in the end she said "take it away"

She now has a Motorola DVR from the cable company and it seems to work for her.
In a year of talking to her it became more and more clear that the added features annoyed her, she wanted it to work like a VCR with clear rules, and simple short menus to do things.

We had to turn off suggestions because she said "they get in the way, I don't want them"

She wanted "always record Stargate SG-1, repeat or new" then complained when it recorded the 9 bazillion showings a week.

So yup.. there are some folks that Tivo isn't right for.

Diane


----------



## Bill McNeal

PhillyGuy said:


> Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.


Thanks for the info. Comcast has a $5/month HDTV STB for encrypted HD channels which kido included in his S3 example. Can an S3 with cableCARDs receive encrypted HD channels, eliminating the need for the HDTV STB?


----------



## Bill McNeal

kido said:


> but wouldn't S3 owners be the most likely to commit to a 3 year plan? Who would buy an S3 to only use for a year or two?


For S3 owners, the pricing changes do result in a longer commitment to get the same pricing as before. It is always nice to have the flexibility as needed.

If TiVo is subsidizing the cost of the boxes through higher monthly service fees/longer contracts, S3 buyers shouldn't be left out in the cold.


----------



## rainwater

TiVoPony said:


> The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios.


Like people who bought the bundle deal who were told it would qualify for MSD are now going to be charged more than double the $6.95 price that was promised us? I would say that is a large number of people considering that is how TiVo has been pushing the bundled deals for the last year. Service just for two of my bundled boxes alone is going to cost me $168 more per year. I'm sorry, but I feel as though I have been suckered by TiVo on this one.


----------



## bmgoodman

kido said:


> _comcast *most* expensive package for TiVo_
> Standard Cable $49.49
> Worst possible deal from TIVO (S2DT 1 yr bundle) $19.95
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> $69.44 per month
> 
> _comcast *least* expensive package for TiVo_
> Standard Cable $49.49
> Best deal from TIVO (3 yr pre pay) $8.31
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> $57.80 per month
> 
> Look at that. Worst case scenario and TiVo's cheaper by 3 cents per month.  If I go for the 3 year pre-pay option, I pay $57.80 per month, a savings of $11.67 per month or $420.12 over 3 years. Plus, I own the S2DT TiVo.


I believe "worst case" should include "Tivo unit fails 13 months into 3 year commitment." Then do your math again. Compare to Comcast who will just swap out your cable box/dvr.


----------



## ChuckyBox

rainwater said:


> Like people who bought the bundle deal who were told it would qualify for MSD are now going to be charged more than double the $6.95 price that was promised us? I would say that is a large number of people considering that is how TiVo has been pushing the bundled deals for the last year. Service just for two of my bundled boxes alone is going to cost me $168 more per year. I'm sorry, but I feel as though I have been suckered by TiVo on this one.


How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.


----------



## rainwater

ChuckyBox said:


> How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.


Actually, the FAQ explicitly says when the contract is up, you will continue at the current rate plan for the number of years you originally signed up for.

What else do I have to go on? Nothing on the TiVo website and nothing on the FAQ says otherwise. I'm sorry I choose not to believe some magic fairy is coming to save me.


----------



## PhillyGuy

Bill McNeal said:


> Thanks for the info. Comcast has a $5/month HDTV STB for encrypted HD channels which kido did not include in his S3 example. Can an S3 with cableCARDs receive encrypted HD channels, eliminating the need for the HDTV STB?


Yes, S3 is a replacement for cable set-top box. However, you would still need to pay for the cable cards.


----------



## mportuesi

samo said:


> But for a life of me I don't understand why people who honestly believe that TiVo has the best DVR available are so ticked off by minor price and/or commitment increase.


This has already been covered in the forums, so I'm not sure how you overlooked it.

Many people don't want to commit to three years of service on a Series 2 box.

There are three major transitions happening in the television industry:

- from analog to digital
- from SD to HD
- from broadcast to internet download

Guess where the Series 2 sits on that technology curve. Series 2 only supports that last item (downloadable content), and with it's sucky network performance it only does that weakly.

I'm actively phasing out analog/SD video equipment in my home. When my old SD TV dies, I'm not going to replace it with another SD set. Likewise, I'm not going to commit to three years of service on a unit that may not be useful to me for that much time. Technology simply moves too quickly.


----------



## Einselen

mportuesi said:


> Likewise, I'm not going to commit to three years of service on a unit that may not be useful to me for that much time. Technology simply moves too quickly.


Again commitment is tied to the account not the unit.


----------



## mfogarty5

rainwater said:


> Actually, the FAQ explicitly says when the contract is up, you will continue at the current rate plan for the number of years you originally signed up for.
> 
> What else do I have to go on? Nothing on the TiVo website and nothing on the FAQ says otherwise. I'm sorry I choose not to believe some magic fairy is coming to save me.


It says it right here.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. *Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month.* TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


----------



## Einselen

mfogarty5 said:


> It says it right here.
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. *Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month.* TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


Rainwater however wanting to take those boxes and put them to MSD. Granted at least rain does not have to commit for a year and so $13.95/month so that service at $12.95 isn't too bad but still when rainwater bought the box when they did they thought they would be able to get MSD for $6.95/month after without the now 3 year committment.

One thing to note from this is a valuable lesson. If it is not in the specific terms of your contract don't always assume it will be there when you get out of your contract.


----------



## rainwater

mfogarty5 said:


> It says it right here.
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. *Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month.* TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


I'm on a bundle plan, not the 1 year commitment program. That quote seems to indicate people who already pay $12.95 get to keep that rate. I am not paying that rate. Also, it doesn't account for MSD.


----------



## mportuesi

Einselen said:


> Again commitment is tied to the account not the unit.


I may not even want to buy another Tivo three years from now. I went through a lot of consideration before committing to a Series 3 upgrade.


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.


You must really enjoy imagining what people write, rather than reading the posts, eh?

No where in the faq does it say that if you're on a 1 year 12.95 contract now (or any other contract), your rate will be 6.95 after the contract for msd elegible boxes. Previously, even if you were on a contract at a higher rate, you could do a new 1 year contract after the end of your current contract (which was still a ripoff, but that's old news) and get the 6.95 rate from that point forwards.


----------



## Einselen

mportuesi said:


> I may not even want to buy another Tivo three years from now. I went through a lot of consideration before committing to a Series 3 upgrade.


Not saying anything on you wanting to upgrade with the 3 years, it just seemed like you were talking about how SD is going out and you would not want to commit to a 3 yr SD unit when HD will possibly be the norm by then. Many people are confused thinking that the service is tied to the box, I was like that earlier this week as I forgot about the post from Stephen saying it is to the account and can be transfered to another box. Just making sure to stress the service can be transfered from box to box.


----------



## HDTiVo

Would someone be kind enough to PM me when TiVo finishes this Beta test of the FAQ?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## zalusky

So the question is do you want to commit to Tivo for 3 years as a service and the reasons why some people might feel ambivalent:
1) Tivo and Comcast will come out with a joint box shortly. Will the subscription be with comcast or will it be with Tivo.
2) ATT, Verizon, Dish, and Dtv will all be advancing their products or could even possibly have deals with Tivo as things change. Again will the subscription with these providers be through them or directly with Tivo.
3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.

3 years from now, heck even 1 year from now may be VERY different. Why do you think Tivo ends the lifetime deal for S3 on Dec 31 because they dont want people thinking about the Comcast box or what Apple and Microsoft may be providing.

When vendors keep their roadmaps secret, consumers cant help be cautious when contracts try to lock them into multi-year deals.

For all its issues one nice thing about Comcast is there is no contract vs all its competitors.


----------



## Einselen

zalusky said:


> 3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.


First of all Apple's iTV is a different market then DVRs. Secondly, I personally do not see iTV doing much at this point of time. $299 to transfer shows you must pay for from iTunes to your TV? Shows that cost $1.99 an episode and then on top of that you have to have storage space to host all these. I sure hope the $299 price tag includes somewhat of a storage system.

Was gonna do some calculations, but forget that for now.


----------



## larrs

bidger said:


> Time-Warner doesn't.


I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.


----------



## HDTiVo

jtlytle said:


> I was hoping they will bring back Lifetime service plan!


Who the hell would commit to an analog box for _that _ long?


----------



## Gai-jin

larrs said:


> I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.


From speaking with a friend who works at the cable company, I'm given to understand a cablecard ready tv should be able to get HD locals without a cablecard or box, since those channels are broadcast without encryption. Cable channels and premium channels are of course encrypted and require the cablecard to decrypt.


----------



## classicsat

zalusky said:


> So the question is do you want to commit to Tivo for 3 years as a service and the reasons why some people might feel ambivalent:
> 1) Tivo and Comcast will come out with a joint box shortly. Will the subscription be with comcast or will it be with Tivo.
> 2) ATT, Verizon, Dish, and Dtv will all be advancing their products or could even possibly have deals with Tivo as things change. Again will the subscription with these providers be through them or directly with Tivo.


For #1, it will be subbed through Comcast (as the DirecTV DVR TiVos are subbed through DirecTV).

For #2, if it is on "their" hardware, it will be through them. If it is useing a Standalone Series 2 or Series 3, the provider will likely be what amounts to an agent for TiVo Inc (like a cell phone MVNO).



> 3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.


TiVo is working on the TiVocast service. The big break will be at least one major studio/network deal, and a solution to the bandwidth problem.



> Why do you think Tivo ends the lifetime deal for S3 on Dec 31


As a carrot for Lifetime holders.


> because they dont want people thinking about the Comcast box or what Apple and Microsoft may be providing.


Nothing to do with it.


----------



## classicsat

Pony said:


> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.


What is considered "customer owned"? 
I am guessing A: One that has been privately purchased (not officially), or B: One that was officially purchased, and any commitments fulfilled in either case.

What is considered "new"?
I am guessing any box originally purchased on or after Nov 4,2006, from an offical vendor.

Official: purchased new/refurb/open box from tivo.com or partner B&M/online retailer

Correct me of I am wrong on either count.


----------



## Einselen

classicsat said:


> Am I correct in assuming all standalone DVRs originally purchased before Nov 4, 2006 can be subbed (as a new account, or added to an existing account) on the old simple $12.95/$6.95 MSD, and the new plan applies only to new DVRs purchased on or after Nov 4, 2006?


How would Tivo know when you purchased it?


----------



## 1283

larrs said:


> I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.


The local HD channels are included as part of limited basic. CableCards are required for TiVo to get programming data for those digital channels. $1.50/month for two cards, no questions asked.


----------



## Einselen

classicsat said:


> What is considered "customer owned"?
> I am guessing A: One that has been privately purchased (IE, not new/refurbished from TiVo.com, or one of TiVo's retail or online partners), or B: One that was purchased new/refurb/open box from tivo.com or partner B&M/online retailer, and any commitments fulfilled in either case.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming all standalone DVRs originally purchased before Nov 4, 2006 can be subbed (as a new account, or added to an existing account) on the old simple $12.95/$6.95 MSD, and the new plan applies only to new DVRs purchased on or after Nov 4, 2006?
> 
> Or does TiVo have a different definition of "new" which would change this?


Also I think you are looking into it too much. A new MSD activation would include a box that was bundled with service for say the 155.40 or 83.40 deals that was going on not too long ago. Tivo said they most likely would honor $12.95 month to month on the box after the committment, but if you wanted to add it in now as MSD it would require a contract as that would be "new". I think that is what is being discussed as new box vs. old box.


----------



## 1283

PhillyGuy said:


> Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.


If I want *ALL* of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> How would Tivo know when you purchased it?


Well, they could trust their customers and take your word for it, but I think this new pricing/contract fiasco shows they don't trust the customers. So, I suppose you'd have to fax/email a receipt.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> this new pricing/contract fiasco shows they don't trust the customers.


Why do you think Tivo does not trust the customers?


----------



## Gai-jin

Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?


I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.

Besides those with bundles that were going to get MSD after the bundles expired many current customers are not being pushed into a contract. Pony already said nothing is changing and I am sure for almost 98% of the customer base (that is leaving about 90,000 which I still think is too large of a number) they are not being forced into contracts. Also you don't have to do a 3 yr contract if you do not wish, sure the rates go up but what does not have some effect of inflation? Very few things that is.

Now with the contract thing you will bring up MSD and to get the MSD we had in Oct have to do 3 yr contract, well that is not being pushed into it, you still have a choice, that is called price increase. Again, it happens. Don't like it, go somewhere else.


----------



## mportuesi

Einselen said:


> Not saying anything on you wanting to upgrade with the 3 years, it just seemed like you were talking about how SD is going out and you would not want to commit to a 3 yr SD unit when HD will possibly be the norm by then. Many people are confused thinking that the service is tied to the box, I was like that earlier this week as I forgot about the post from Stephen saying it is to the account and can be transfered to another box. Just making sure to stress the service can be transfered from box to box.


Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.

A secondary, lesser objection is committing to Tivo over the long term, given the increasing number of options for obtaining programming over the next few years.

I've already "committed" to Tivo anew by getting a series 3 with the Lifetime VIP, which is not unlike a prepaid service plan. I decided that HD content via cable was viable for at least the amount of time it would take for me to get to the breakeven point, so the S3 was worth it. But the S3 is a high-end product and not really an option for most Tivo newbies at this time.


----------



## Einselen

mportuesi said:


> Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.
> 
> A secondary, lesser objection is committing to Tivo over the long term, given the increasing number of options for obtaining programming over the next few years.


Totally can see your view. The thing that has hurt Tivo in this is people's fear to commitment. We as humans do not like committing when we don't know what can be coming up in the futured. However, lots of business plans are about committments, cell phones, internet service, sometimes rent, etc. or else you pay a premium for having no committment.

I do have to say the good thing with the pricing plan again is aligning (for the most part) buying from retail and buying form Tivo.com. Now instead of having 20 million plans there are 3 based on time and then from there 2 based on prepay or monthly for a total of 6.

I just had another idea. What if instead of prepaying for Tivo service you prepay to record so many hours of shows? Almost like prepaid cell phones and using certain number of minutes. The only problem with that is you will get shows recorded you already seen and thus delete right away using up an hour or so and then also you would have to have some small fee for having the guide data, etc. I know it is wacky, but I am thinking outside the box here. Just having a brain dump moment.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.
> 
> Besides those with bundles that were going to get MSD after the bundles expired many current customers are not being pushed into a contract. Pony already said nothing is changing and I am sure for almost 98% of the customer base (that is leaving about 90,000 which I still think is too large of a number) they are not being forced into contracts. Also you don't have to do a 3 yr contract if you do not wish, sure the rates go up but what does not have some effect of inflation? Very few things that is.
> 
> Now with the contract thing you will bring up MSD and to get the MSD we had in Oct have to do 3 yr contract, well that is not being pushed into it, you still have a choice, that is called price increase. Again, it happens. Don't like it, go somewhere else.


And yet, rather than offering some benefit to customers who sign up for another contract, they penalize them. Just less so than customers who don't sign up for another contract.

We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.

As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight? That's what's happening here. Yes, it doesn't affect existing customers today. But it does tomorrow when you want a new box, or when your contract runs out, or... and it will hit you overnight, and without warning for most customers. I've got a lifetime box, and another box with MSD already. I was considering getting a DT tivo with my rewards points and subbing it. This pricing change made the decision for me, and I chose a digital camera instead. I won't be adding another tivo because of these outrageous new prices/contracts.

And yes, to me, it's absolutely a trust issue. It's saying, you've been our customer for years, but we don't trust you to stay, so we're going to penalize you in an extreme fashion if you don't sign a new contract to stay with us.

It's also a trust issue in the other direction. We were told one thing when we signed up for contracts a few days, weeks, or months ago. Now suddenly it's changed. I just lost a lot of trust in tivo.

Personally, I see that as a way to lose customers, not gain. But it's tivo's business, and tivo's call.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.


Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms? I believe the terms said when the contract runs out you go month to month based on the then monthly rate of a 1 year agreement. So today that would be $19.95/month. Now when you signed up they had another pricing plan of $6.95 a month if you sign up for 1 yr and meet certain conditions (you know the MSD conditions, no need to type them). When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions? If so get yourself a lawyer you got a possible breach of contract on your hands. If not (which is the case) then what you did is you ASSUMED that the 1 yr $6.95 rate would still be available when your 1 year is up. I prepaid 3 yrs for my Tivo just recently, I hoped that option would still be available after 3 yrs, but I did not expect it to be. Same should hold true if you sign up for 1 yr, 6 months, 1 month, 1 week, or even 3 hours. Unless it is written in the contract don't expect that offer to be available to you once you are out of your contract. Until the offer is accepted it can be retracted by the offerer.


----------



## rainwater

Einselen said:


> When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions?


I was told by TiVo customer service that once my first bundle box contract runs out, I could switch it to $6.95 and once my second box term is over, I could switch it to $12.95 both with new one-year contracts.

If you are saying I shouldn't be upset because they have to right to change their terms, I would respectively disagree when I have been misled this whole time.


----------



## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight?


Well, it looks like my cable bill will be increased by 33% ($15 -> $20) in the very near future. Do you think Comcast will prepare a FAQ?


----------



## lessd

Einselen said:


> Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms? I believe the terms said when the contract runs out you go month to month based on the then monthly rate of a 1 year agreement. So today that would be $19.95/month. Now when you signed up they had another pricing plan of $6.95 a month if you sign up for 1 yr and meet certain conditions (you know the MSD conditions, no need to type them). When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions? If so get yourself a lawyer you got a possible breach of contract on your hands. If not (which is the case) then what you did is you ASSUMED that the 1 yr $6.95 rate would still be available when your 1 year is up. I prepaid 3 yrs for my Tivo just recently, I hoped that option would still be available after 3 yrs, but I did not expect it to be. Same should hold true if you sign up for 1 yr, 6 months, 1 month, 1 week, or even 3 hours. Unless it is written in the contract don't expect that offer to be available to you once you are out of your contract. Until the offer is accepted it can be retracted by the offerer.


You people are making this too complicated..after your contract is up you go month to month at the rate of your former contract so if you have a 3 year MSD contract at $6.95/month, at the end on 3 years you would stay at $6.95/month no contract. This $6.95/month would only change if say new 3 year MSD contract were at say $8.95/month, then you would go at $8.95/month. This appears to be a hard concept to grasp. Also you can change hardware at any time in the contract without any penalty (you could not do that with the old Lifetime Service), so if TiVo produces a Series 4 in two years you could get it and put it on your existing contract (the TiVo you take off would no longer have service unless you purchased another contract).


----------



## cherry ghost

c3 said:


> If I want *ALL* of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.


That is different than my area. In order to get Digital Classic here, you must subscribe to Standard Cable which includes Basic and Extended Basic.


----------



## 1283

cherry ghost said:


> That is different than my area. In order to get Digital Classic here, you must subscribe to Standard Cable which includes Basic and Extended Basic.


Are you talking about Comcast? Yes, policies may be different in different areas. When I called Comcast to ask if I could add digital classic to limited basic, I was told yes. When I went to the local Comcast office, I was told no. Then I called Comcast again, and I had no problem adding it without expanded basic.


----------



## DrewTivo

Einselen said:


> How would Tivo know when you purchased it?


When activated? Or when activated minus a few days (say 14 days)? And if you bought it from Tivo, they will know.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> Well, it looks like my cable bill will be increased by 33% ($15 -> $20) in the very near future. Do you think Comcast will prepare a FAQ?


No, but I bet they won't add varying prices depending on what length contract you sign up for, or what date you started, or whatever. As a matter of fact, I don't think they'll lock you into a contract at all. A simple price increase shouldn't require a faq. A price increase + total revamp of how the terms on which service is made available, that can be a bit more confusing.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms?


Well, here's one quote from Stephen:



> # Here's what happens after your commitment period is over: If you do nothing, you will continue to be billed each month at the same rate as your original contract. For example, suppose you buy the bundle with $19.95 for a one year commitment. After twelve months, by default, you'll continue to be billed $19.95 per month. Or, if you purchase the bundle with $469 prepaid (which includes 3 years of service), after 36 months you will start being billed $16.95 per month. Once the commitment period is up, you can cancel at any time.
> # Once the commitment is up, you can call us and switch to the service-only monthly or prepay pricing option of your choice (see the next section). For example, you can call and switch to a $12.95 per month service-only plan (with a 12-month commitment).


This is related to the 12.95 rate, not the 6.95, but it's the same issue. And I believe it was later clarified to include both, though I didn't dig far enough into the thread to locate any specific quote.

I understand that they have the right to change their terms. However, I fully expect them to honor their obligation under the terms I signed up under, which includes the official clarification of said terms by tivo employees. Perhaps they can get away with it legally. That doesn't mean I like it, or that it's the 'right' thing to do.


----------



## cherry ghost

c3 said:


> Are you talking about Comcast? Yes, policies may be different in different areas. When I called Comcast to ask if I could add digital classic to limited basic, I was told yes. When I went to the local Comcast office, I was told no. Then I called Comcast again, and I had no problem adding it without expanded basic.


Yes, Comcast. I've tried your way and they won't do it here. Do you get ESPN HD but not SD? Also, we have a different pricing structure. Here, Basic is $27 and Extended is $23.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> You must really enjoy imagining what people write, rather than reading the posts, eh?


You too, apparently:


ChuckyBox said:


> Deal with it.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> No, but I bet they won't add varying prices depending on what length contract you sign up for, or what date you started, or whatever.


No, Charter just raises my rates by some outrageous amount every single year. And then I call in to cancel some services and they miraculously find a package deal that gives me everything I was getting before for just a few dollars more. Then the next year, we do our little dance all over again. I can't imagine the rates paid by people who don't call in (which is most people, I assume). But year after year, my rates keep creeping up. (Unlike TiVo, which I can still get for $12.95 per month, or even $8.30 per month if I prepay, and that now includes a new box.)

I'm beginning to think Charter doesn't have my best interests at heart. Where's the love? Where's the trust?


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> No, Charter just raises my rates by some outrageous amount every single year. And then I call in to cancel some services and they miraculously find a package deal that gives me everything I was getting before for just a few dollars more. Then the next year, we do our little dance all over again. I can't imagine the rates paid by people who don't call in (which is most people, I assume). But year after year, my rates keep creeping up. (Unlike TiVo, which I can still get for $12.95 per month, or even $8.30 per month if I prepay, and that now includes a new box.)
> 
> I'm beginning to think Charter doesn't have my best interests at heart. Where's the love? Where's the trust?


When's the last time charter said 'We'll not raise your rates quite so high if you sign up for a multi year contract with termination fees roughly equal to a years service'


----------



## ChuckyBox

mportuesi said:


> Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.


If you don't want to go the full 3 years, the 2-year plan looks pretty good. It's $14.95/month, which is $2 per month more than the old service-only rate, but it includes a new box. So you can think of it as just renting the box. You could also put up $70 and get a DT box. There is still going to be tons of SD content for the next two years, so you're really not risking much.



> I've already "committed" to Tivo anew by getting a series 3 with the Lifetime VIP, which is not unlike a prepaid service plan. I decided that HD content via cable was viable for at least the amount of time it would take for me to get to the breakeven point, so the S3 was worth it.


This isn't much of a commitment since the S3 with lifetime will have excellent resale value for many years. In terms of breakeven, you're probably already there (or will be once the VIP offer ends).


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## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> When's the last time charter said 'We'll not raise your rates quite so high if you sign up for a multi year contract with termination fees roughly equal to a years service'


I wish they would.


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## dstoffa

ChuckyBox said:


> But year after year, my rates keep creeping up.


Do your cableTV rates increase with the rate of inflation? Or are the rates going up at a faster pace? Are they giving you more each time they go up (even if it's channels you would NEVER watch?)

When I think of the rate of inflation to be about 3 percent a year, a buck or two increase doesn't seem outrageous.

-Doug


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## classicsat

Gai-jin said:


> Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?


Nobody is "pushing" contracts, especially on existing customers that have fulfilled commitments and are paying month-to-month. The contracts are only for new cusomers and new hardware.



> We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.


The only thing that changed is what the MSD rate is, and the clause that they have the right to revert (new) month-to-month just off a 2 or 3 year "contract" to the one year rate.



> As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight? That's what's happening here. Yes, it doesn't affect existing customers today. But it does tomorrow when you want a new box, or when your contract runs out, or..
> 
> 
> 
> When you add a box, yes or replace a Lifetime, yes.
> You can always (for the foreseeable future anyways) buy a retail box full priced, and just replace an existing box, without having to renew a contrc on it.
Click to expand...


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## mnw2000

I am a Tivo fan.

The requirements for a 3-year commitment with a $200 early termination fee makes no sense. My cable company has no such commitment requirement on either my service or my DVR. No one wants a $200 early termination fee over thier heads when they have no idea what the future holds. 

Here are some reasons that one may need to end the Tivo service:

1) A Tivo user moves to location which Tivo does not support. (They do exist!)
2) A Tivo user switches to a service that Tivo does not support. (Verizon FIOS?)
3) A Tivo user decides to move in to a location which already has DVR service.
4) A Tivo user decides that they want HD support without a $800 product fee.
5) A Tivo user wants true dual std. cable tuner support. (Tivo supports one cable, one OVA.)
6) A multiple Tivo user doesn't need all the Tivo units they have. (Kids go to college, etc.)

I am sure that are many more reasons for a Tivo user to want to end their service. For this reason, and not the monthly cost, Tivo new pricing makes will scare people away.

As long as I am not required to make a commitment and maintain my current pricing, I will stay with Tivo. However, if I get a email requiring me to make a 3 year commitment to maintain my pricing, I will be moving to a Time Warner DVR or a future Verizon FIOS DVR.

Marc
-------
40 Hour Series 2 (Under 1-year package program)
80 Hour Series 2 (Month-to-Month additional unit)


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## ChuckyBox

dstoffa said:


> Do your cableTV rates increase with the rate of inflation? Or are the rates going up at a faster pace? Are they giving you more each time they go up (even if it's channels you would NEVER watch?)


That would take a lot of digging to answer since I've been with them for quite a few years and have added and subtracted things from time to time. And they have rejiggered the packages and what's in them (they love to spread popular channels into as many "tiers" as they can) so many times that you'd probably need a Ph.D. in relativistic statistical accounting to figure it out.

But the initial jump that gets my attention is about $20 to $30, and I get it down to about $5 to $10. Sometimes that will include something new (like a jump in my internet download speed -- another thing they like to change a lot), but I'll usually lose it in the next round to keep the price down.



> When I think of the rate of inflation to be about 3 percent a year, a buck or two increase doesn't seem outrageous.


Sure, but if TiVo did it, look out...


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## Einselen

lessd said:


> You people are making this too complicated..after your contract is up you go month to month at the rate of your former contract so if you have a 3 year MSD contract at $6.95/month, at the end on 3 years you would stay at $6.95/month no contract. This $6.95/month would only change if say new 3 year MSD contract were at say $8.95/month, then you would go at $8.95/month. This appears to be a hard concept to grasp. Also you can change hardware at any time in the contract without any penalty (you could not do that with the old Lifetime Service), so if TiVo produces a Series 4 in two years you could get it and put it on your existing contract (the TiVo you take off would no longer have service unless you purchased another contract).


Les in no way was I refering to that part of the contract. I was mearly discussing how individuals purchased bundles and at the end of the year were expecting to get the $6.95 rate.

However, since we are talking about what the rate goes to, until Tivo says so my 3 year unit when expires I will expect to jump the monthly rate of a 1 year service agreement. Why? That is what my terms said and until Tivo themselves tell me yes it will go to the monthly fee of the 3 year contract then I will take that, but it doesn't matter for me right now because I still have 2 years and 10 months or so on that Tivo.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> Well, here's one quote from Stephen:
> 
> _Quote from Stephen_
> 
> This is related to the 12.95 rate, not the 6.95, but it's the same issue. And I believe it was later clarified to include both, though I didn't dig far enough into the thread to locate any specific quote.
> 
> I understand that they have the right to change their terms. However, I fully expect them to honor their obligation under the terms I signed up under, which includes the official clarification of said terms by tivo employees. Perhaps they can get away with it legally. That doesn't mean I like it, or that it's the 'right' thing to do.


So you are going off clarification of what the then pricing scheme is and saying you should now be bound to it? Legally I think we all agree no. In good business practice you probably should. Does Tivo have to do anything though? No. However what I would recommend doing besides *****ing on here on how much you hate the new plan is to casually call up Tivo, ask politely for a supervisor, explain your situation, explain what Stephen said on the forums if you like, explain how you understand pricing changes, but you were under the belief that once that boxed expires you would be able to get that rate. Do not under any circumstance get boiling angry. You can get somewhat disgruntled and upset, but don't overdo it or the supervisor will do nothing for you. Now do this today (Well tomorrow probably would be better) regardless of when your box's years is up. Why? Later down the road I doubt they will be so helpful. They will tell you pricing plan has been up for X amount of months, yada yada yada. Regardless of the status get a case number. Why a case number if denied? So that way if Tivo does come back and say they will honor it you have a case number already to refer back to. Now once you do that report back and if you are denied then we can go lynch the monster who came up with the pricing change.


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## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> So you are going off clarification of what the then pricing scheme is and saying you should now be bound to it? Legally I think we all agree no. In good business practice you probably should. Does Tivo have to do anything though? No.


Sounds about like what I said. Legally, they can get away with it. Is it the right thing to do? Not a chance. When one of their head people puts in writing the way things will work, they should honor that.

Either way, I don't need to call tivo. I have 1 unit with lifetime, 1 unit on MSD, and 1 unit I decided not to buy/add just because of this new pricing.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> Either way, I don't need to call tivo. I have 1 unit with lifetime, 1 unit on MSD, and 1 unit I decided not to buy/add just because of this new pricing.


I thought you also had the same issue as Rainwater with a box you purchased under a deal and at the end of the year was planning on taking that over to MSD at the $6.95 rate. Well then my advice goes to rainwater and others in that boat.

AS far as you go then you have two options and I think you already decided what you would like to do.

1) Accept the new price scheme
2) Don't and not buy anymore Tivos.

All the whining, complaining, repeating of arguments is not going to change Tivo's pricing plan. They know you are upset, but the bean counters have more info then any of us can have or will have and they crunched the numbers and the expected value of this price plan is greater then the old price plans. I think Chucky said it best in one of his post.


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## 1283

mnw2000 said:


> My cable company has no such commitment requirement on either my service or my DVR.


Correct, but Comcast charges $70/month to get their DVR.


----------



## Gene S

I haven't seen this question come up yet. What if you want to sell/give a S2 box to someone else, how much will the service cost for the new owner?

Currently I have one S3(lifetime), and two single tuner S2's(one lifetime, one monthly @ 6.95). I am not under any contract. Both S2's were bought retail, the S3 through Tivo.com and I transferred the lifetime from an old S1 to the S3.

Since I got the S3, I don't need one of my S2's. I was going to give my S2, that I pay monthly on, to my parents. They already have a single tuner S2 that is lifetimed.

Before the new pricing they would just pay $6.95 a month. What would they have to pay now?

Pony's FAQ doesn't answer this, but reading the MSD terms from Tivo.com it looks like they can only pay $6.95 a month if they agree to a 3 year contract.

This new pricing is great for brand new customers. But because of previous pricing options, it leaves too many questions for existing customers. A company that requires a customer to spend an hour reading fine print to figure out how much said product costs, is doing something wrong.


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## ChuckyBox

Einselen said:


> I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.


Some history:

The original 1-year service commitment was purely to reduce the churn from people who would sign up for the service for a short time and then cancel. This is the worst kind of customer that any subscription business can have, so even if you slow sales because of the requirement, you're usually better off.

But when the company (under the new CEO) discovered that a major impediment to closing a sale with a customer was the idea that people had to pay for the box _and_ the monthly service, they researched other ways of structuring the deals. They claim to have had very good success with plans like the current bundles, whereby a customer could get a box and service for a monthly payment only, or a single upfront payment.

But those plans had a much higher subscriber acquisition cost (SAC) than earlier plans (which were already fairly high SAC), and TiVo had to make sure they recovered their investment in the customer. So in came the service commitment at various rates and lengths. They've tweaked them a bit since the original bundled plans came out, but the requirement is the same: stick around long enough to pay for your box.

But this led to another problem: retail and online pricing were different from one another, giving TiVo no real way to advertise their product in a broad, national campaign because the online prices and the retail prices (and the subscriptions that went with them) were all over the place.

TiVo has been struggling to grow for years -- they've been losing money from day 1, and they simply need more standalone subscribers to get to break-even. The company doesn't even need more money from each sub, just having more subs is enough. Now they believe they've found a way -- the price of the hardware has come down enough that they can offer plans at the current price points and not have to charge an upfront fee for the basic box.

So they have to bring the retailers in line with the more successful pricing model, even if it means still using the rebates, so that they can advertise nationally and uniformly and get a lot of new subscribers.

Does TiVo _want_ to raise your rates? Hell yes. If they could get and extra $3/month out of their 1.5 million subscriptions, they'd be in the black and growth would be the only issue facing the company. But they know they can't do that. They've got a nice, content, low-churn pool of subscribers, and the last thing in the world they want to do is stir that up.

So they're going to leave most everybody alone. Customers will pay the new rates for new stuff, otherwise they probably won't even know anything has changed. Some customers, like zeo and rain, are in an in-between situation. If TiVo were perfect, those customers would roll seamlessly into the $6.95 MSD rate they were expecting. But TiVo is far from perfect and our friends are probably going to have to call and explain that they've paid for their hardware and they want the favorable rate without having the longest commitment. And they'll probably get it because it will cost TiVo a lot more to replace them than it will to give them a rate that they're already giving other customers (i.e., a rate that the company makes a profit from).

Anyway, the point here is that the commitments are about recovering SAC, not so much about predictability of income.


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## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> AS far as you go then you have two options and I think you already decided what you would like to do.
> 
> 1) Accept the new price scheme
> 2) Don't and not buy anymore Tivos.


This isn't necesarilly about buying new tivo's. It's about existing multiple tivo homes.

Either way, this pricing scandal has already lost tivo 1 sub from me, as I was about to order a DT for my home as a 3rd box. Now I won't be. I'm sure many others here have come to the same decision. As your option 2 suggests, I think tivo will lose a lot of subs because of this, and even more in customer goodwill.


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## Einselen

ChuckyBox said:


> Anyway, the point here is that the commitments are about recovering SAC, not so much about predictability of income.


Well said, better then what I could do, clearly as you have read all my posts, lol


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## Einselen

ChuckyBox said:


> But TiVo is far from perfect and our friends are probably going to have to call and explain that they've paid for their hardware and they want the favorable rate without having the longest commitment. And they'll probably get it because it will cost TiVo a lot more to replace them than it will to give them a rate that they're already giving other customers (i.e., a rate that the company makes a profit from).


I believe this is true too. The cost of keeping a customer is cheaper then aquiring a new customer to take their place. Unfortunatly Best Buy does not understand that (I got a beef with Best Buy and it just felt good taking a jab at them right now, haha).

As a former employee of Blockbuster we were always told if the customer is complaining about "late fees" (we Blockbuster employees, like to call them extending viewing fees) then to take them off. If the price was too much that we felt uncomfotable then offer to take half the fees off, if they insist say that is the best you can do, but have them talk to the manager and bring the manager over right away. Why? That $15, $20, $25 late fee does suck losing that income (as a huge amount of BB income was through those fees) however keeping that customer happy and coming back in the long run covered it. Also I was told by my store manager that if a manager did not help out the customer and the customer complained to the ditrict manager that customer not only got the late fees removed but also got a gift card. Of course there were a few instances where no matter what we would not take off the fee, that happened to those who abused the sytem or complained every single time, but for the most part our job as CSR is to make the customer happy and if by waiving that fee then so be it.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> This isn't necesarilly about buying new tivo's. It's about existing multiple tivo homes.
> 
> Either way, this pricing scandal has already lost tivo 1 sub from me, as I was about to order a DT for my home as a 3rd box. Now I won't be. I'm sure many others here have come to the same decision. As your option 2 suggests, I think tivo will lose a lot of subs because of this, and even more in customer goodwill.


Don't you have to buy a new Tivo to add another Tivo into your home?

As I said I think us Tivoians that are on here feel more, what is the word, I guess putoff by the new plan versus the average consumer. The reason is we know what was before and the ins and outs of everything. Do I agree with the new pricing plan? Not really. Was I intially pissed when I read about? Hell yeah. Have I learned to step back and accept it. Yes. You may not be in the same boat as me. You may never be in the same boat as me. Unfortunatly I am sure there is a good number that agree with you and will now "vow" to never buy another Tivo, but I am sure Tivo has expected that and calculated that into the costs. To me I see no other viable alternative. Now maybe I will in 6 months, 1 yr, 3 yrs, 10 yrs but until then I still see Tivo as a fair price (even with the longer committments). If I am in the market for another DVR of course I will start with Tivo. Again though that can change just like the prices of any good that you don't have a contract on.


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## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> Don't you have to buy a new Tivo to add another Tivo into your home?


Yes, or no. I have an extra unsubbed S2 sitting at home not being used right now, so I could just resub it. Not that I intend to. I was going to give it away to someone who would use it.

For me, I was about to order the DT from tivo rewards. Literally ready to push the button this week. Till I saw this new pricing.

So I guess, technically, that means I can personally account for 2 new subs tivo just lost because of this new pricing.


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## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> So I guess, technically, that means I can personally account for 2 new subs tivo just lost because of this new pricing.


Glad I helped you with the count there.


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## dswallow

Pony...

First... I'd suggest on your web pages where you show the prepaid plan options to show what that amount prepaid represents per-month just so it's easy for someone shopping to compare. Right now one has to pull out a calculator. I see it on some of your pages, but specifically, it's these pages where the monthly amount isn't shown:

http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series2180hrDTDVR
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR

Second... It's unclear what you mean by "then-applicable monthly rate" in the TiVo package details page (http://www.tivo.com/0.4.offerdetail.pkg.asp?terms=allMO), it'd be better to be clearer about that.

Third... Nowhere on any pages one might browse looking to buy equipment that I've seen is there mention of multi service discount prices, or if there are any at all for multiple units. The only link I found was on the package details page I mentioned above. That ought to be more clearly shown everywhere price is talked about, even if it's just a link in fine print at the bottom.

I've been around a while here, but always as a DirecTV subscriber, so I've never had to deal with the fee structure that non-DirecTV TiVo users deal with, but obviously I get to read about it a lot and I've always tried to stay up on it so I can make suggestions to friends and answer questions as well.

Now, I have little good to say about all the changes at DirecTV lately. I find their attitude and roadmap for the future to be about as abysmal as I've always considered cable companies and cell phone companies to be; nobody anymore seems to believe they can hold on to a customer by any means other than forcing it upon them by contract in the form of hiding equipment costs in monthly fees and/or termination fees.

I honestly don't know what I'd do if I wasn't already set with my DirecTV HR10-250's. I certainly have no love for cable companies to begin with, but seeing TiVo repeatedly move bit by bit into the same attitude problems as cable has always had and DirecTV has been learning to have, I doubt I'd buy one; I'd certainly look at and try out every alternative first. My initial opinion is that I find the new TiVo pricing options pretty bad compared to what they used to be. If I'd never know how things used to be, would they look similarly bad? I can't say. But it's looking just like cell phone companies... they don't trust they'll keep a customer any way but by locking them in by contract and with high termination fees to break that contract early.

At the very least, if your termination fee was prorated for the remaining term, it'd at least be possible to believe that it represented some contribution on TiVo's part towards the cost of the hardware. But that it's just $200 if terminated on day 32 and $200 on day 532, then it's just a tactic to lock a subscriber in. It just feels dirty. Like cell phone companies, and like DirecTV... you'll get away with it for awhile, but you're not making friends with the policy, either.

Frankly, I think things are now overly complex. 6 different service options, up-front fees on boxes; complexities of multiple unit service discounts; termination fees. What a mess. You used to be able to buy a box for a set price. The equipment price was one thing and the service price was another. And they were separate, not hiding costs for each other. Maybe there's a bigger market for your new way, but that pricing model is one that I associate with some slimy business practices out there. Anyway, good luck with it.


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## zalusky

You can get many of the TV shows free with ads or though Itunes without ads or though DVDs at the end of the season now.

I have to believe this will accelerate and eventually include HD.

Tivo and the Satellite companies have to be afraid of this and are going for contracts to reduce churn and lock you in so you dont change on some whim. For example your favorite show being available through an easier vehicle and you dont have to subscribe to the whole smorgasboard of channels.

The cable companies are pushing triple play in an attempt to lock you into some set of products you wont need. In fact in 5 to ten years all you will really need is the broadband connection as you most likely will be able to video and phone over IP.

Lets see in just 1 year where we will be with Vista offering built in media center and Apple working their way into the living room as well.

I have no insider knowledge of anything but if Apple or even Microsoft released a plasma/LCD with built in wireless you would be able to watch streaming and purchased shows in a simple plugin fashion. At first it may be just Itunes stuff but Apple has a relationship with Google who has tremendous bandwidth and they could do the streaming part and boom your ready to watch just the shows you want and not have to buy everything.

Now Tivo is attempting to the same with Tivocast - Great. The question is whether they can survive the competition. Perhaps they will become part of the competition.


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## DCIFRTHS

Hmm. I wonder how may posts will accumulate before / if Pony replies.


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## Lazlo123

I could be wrong... but I always thought FAQ's were meant to answer questions... no create more... I'm new to the area, as you can see by my number of posts... Most FAQ's i've read of other companies are very direct, clear, and to the point. I'm not even a Tivo subscriber yet and as one who likes to look at the FAQ's before purchasing.. I have to admit, I am disappointed.. but i'll hang around and see how things go, it's still early.


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## samo

dswallow said:


> At the very least, if your termination fee was prorated for the remaining term, it'd at least be possible to believe that it represented some contribution on TiVo's part towards the cost of the hardware. But that it's just $200 if terminated on day 32 and $200 on day 532, then it's just a tactic to lock a subscriber in. It just feels dirty. Like cell phone companies, and like DirecTV... you'll get away with it for awhile, but you're not making friends with the policy, either.


Although I agree with most of your post and personally don't have any plans to go back to SA TiVos, to be fair to Tivo they do prorate termination fees.
Look at new contract agreement.

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp


> An early termination fee of the lesser of $200.00 or the amount owed on the remaining term of your monthly TiVo Package commitment will be charged to you if your monthly TiVo Package is cancelled prior to the end of your commitment, except as permitted under TiVo's 30 day Money Back Guarantee.


Also DirecTV does not charge you termination fee if you return equipment. Not even all of the equipment - just IRDs and DVRs (you keep antennas, switches and cables). Since newest deals are all lease, you return equipment that didn't cost you money (except for HR20 that cost $200 to get).


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## dswallow

samo said:


> Although I agree with most of your post and personally don't have any plans to go back to SA TiVos, to be fair to Tivo they do prorate termination fees.
> Look at new contract agreement.
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp


No they don't. That's not a proration being described; that's just saying if the monthly fees you'd owe for the remainder of your term total less than the $200 then that's all you'd have to pay. A proration would spread the termination fee across the entire term of the agreement such that you'd only have to pay the portion for the remainder of your term. For instance, if you had a 24 month agreement and a $200 termination fee, $200/24 is what you'd pay for each month remaining on your agreement if you terminated it early.

DirecTV prorates their early termination fee. TiVo doesn't, just like most cell phone companies have been doing though Verizon recently changed their policy: http://www.entrepreneur.com/technology/managingtechnology/article167630.html

We believe dissatisfaction with flat early termination fees is tarnishing the entire industry, announced CEO Denny Strigl in a Verizon press release. No kidding.


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## dswallow

samo said:


> Also DirecTV does not charge you termination fee if you return equipment. Not even all of the equipment - just IRDs and DVRs (you keep antennas, switches and cables). Since newest deals are all lease, you return equipment that didn't cost you money (except for HR20 that cost $200 to get).


Under the new lease terms, you always must return your equipment... at least the receivers and remotes (the dish and multiswitches stay). AND you face paying an early termination fee, too. The option to return the equipment in lieu of paying any (prorated) early termination fee no longer exists for those people with leased equipment.


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## samo

dswallow said:


> Under the new lease terms, you always must return your equipment... at least the receivers and remotes (the dish and multiswitches stay). AND you face paying an early termination fee, too. The option to return the equipment in lieu of paying any (prorated) early termination fee no longer exists for those people with leased equipment.


You are right. My bad. I wasn't up to speed on lease terms. When I signed up the deal was that you purchase hardware for free (after rebate) and you can cancel for free if you return hardware. Apparently they changed the terms.


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## Gai-jin

dswallow said:


> DirecTV prorates their early termination fee. TiVo doesn't, just like most cell phone companies have been doing though Verizon recently changed their policy: http://www.entrepreneur.com/technology/managingtechnology/article167630.html
> 
> We believe dissatisfaction with flat early termination fees is tarnishing the entire industry, announced CEO Denny Strigl in a Verizon press release. No kidding.


I don't know about others, but cingular pro-rates the fee in many states. I had always figured it was because the laws in those states require it, I don't know why else they would flat fee in some areas and pro rate in others.


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## HDTiVo

Lazlo123 said:


> I'm new to the area, as you can see by my number of posts... Most FAQ's i've read of other companies are very direct, clear, and to the point.


They don't get any newbier around here than that.

Welcome to the TiVo*f*usion!


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## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> Actually, given the number of people who participate in these fora, I take the lack of general outrage as a sign that most people get it and realize that the changes are no big deal and don't even affect most of us. Compared to the outrage over the price of the S3 and all the prognostications of TiVo doom over that (despite the fact that by all appearances the S3 continues to sell well), this is positively mild. There are a few people who seem to have lost the ability to take in new information and apply it, but that is, I guess, to be expected any time anything changes.


Absolutely. There have been a lot of blow-ups recently, but from where I'm sitting, the 7.3/7.3.1 situation and this price increase situation are "normal" -- there will ALWAYS be people who will complain about ANYTHING. The S3 situation was UNIQUE -- it was distinctly different from the S2 introduction, and I think indicated that there was a serious mistake made, though I'm not willing to speculate what that mistake was.


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## bmgoodman

Here's my wild speculation:

Tivo screws up with the release of 7.3.x software. Lots of complaints. Lots of people going month-to-month call to cancel service. (Some may have been given price breaks to retain.) Tivo loses some money in the debacle. So, imagine the Tivo braintrust trying to figure out how to keep this from happening again. Well, they could either ensure that future updates are more satisfactory to more users or they can attempt to lock people in for extended periods so that future bad releases don't automatically result in the loss of customers. It gives them time to fix things while knowing that current customers won't drop like flies. 

So, we know which option they chose.

End of wild speculation.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> Absolutely. There have been a lot of blow-ups recently, but from where I'm sitting, the 7.3/7.3.1 situation and this price increase situation are "normal" -- there will ALWAYS be people who will complain about ANYTHING. The S3 situation was UNIQUE -- it was distinctly different from the S2 introduction, and I think indicated that there was a serious mistake made, though I'm not willing to speculate what that mistake was.


And you don't believe this new pricing scheme is a mistake on tivo's part?


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Sweet. Go away for a while, and it's always fun to come back here and see what latest move Tivo has shot itself in the foot with.  

When I first got my tivo last year, I was all proud, telling everyone I knew I about it. Now, I'm embarrassed to mention it. I sure as hell can't recommend it to anyone anymore.

Now, it's simply a question of who'll survive longer, my S2, or Tivo the company.

My money's on the hardware. :down:


----------



## smark

I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> And you don't believe this new pricing scheme is a mistake on tivo's part?


I don't like the new pricing scheme, but I'm not sure it is a "mistake" (while I am pretty confident that there was a mistake made with the S3 introduction). The pricing change is not that different from other pricing changes I've seen other companies employ. It isn't especially unusual or objectionable. Whether the customers they'd lose would be worth more or less than the customers they'd retain longer is an open question, a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.


----------



## Billy66

bicker said:


> ... a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.


You've been around here long enough Bicker. You've seen this marketing department bleed all of the AOL money away etc. Honestly, what makes you think that TiVo has "appropriate" research data? That's a serious question, not just a jab. That research would be a marketing function and marketing is NOT what TiVo does best....or well.


----------



## bicker

I appreciate what you're saying, but at least they're trying. Believing a customer's utterly data-less gut-feel (even if it is your own) would tend to have even *worse *results. So in a nutshell, while they may not be getting it right, they're more likely to be getting closer to the mark than Gai-jin, for example, unless he's working for a competitor and has told us about that. Members of the general public are, as a group, notorious whiners about pricing, and so I'd give voiced opinion absolutely no credibility. It all comes down to what customers actually *do* -- NOT what they say they'll do.


----------



## Billy66

Agreed Bicker. They haven't done well, but it's surely better than we can do from our chairs.


----------



## HDTiVo

Billy66 said:


> You've been around here long enough Bicker. You've seen this marketing department bleed all of the AOL money away etc. Honestly, what makes you think that TiVo has "appropriate" research data? That's a serious question, not just a jab. That research would be a marketing function and marketing is NOT what TiVo does best....or well.


Amen.



bicker said:


> ... a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.


How would you rate the opinion of someone with over 20 years experience analyzing business strategies particularly in the technology arena?

*TiVo is doubling down on a terrible strategy*. Baring a miracle, the result is going to be either plummeting subscriptions or massive acquisition costs which will never be recouped.

I'd take back the last CEO - he who's name I shall not mention.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> I don't like the new pricing scheme, but I'm not sure it is a "mistake" (while I am sure that there was a mistake made with the S3 introduction). <snip> And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.


So how is it that you can be so certain of one mistake, yet declare that I can't know whether another issue was a mistake or not?

As for my gut feeling vs. market research, can you show me said market research? Until you can prove it, I don't know it exists. Meanwhile, I can personally confirm 2 subscriptions TiVo has lost because of this change. That's not gut feeling, that's fact. My gut feeling, on the other hand, is that I'm not the only sub they're losing over this.


----------



## jlb

TiVoPony said:


> commitments and prepaid plans.
> 
> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. *New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.*


Sorry if this is a smeek (I really didn't want to read the whole thing)......

But this statement opens up another point of confusion.........Previously, my understanding was that if I took one of my current boxes out of service, and then later reactivated it, that it would be subject to the new pricing/committment terms.

However, this statement in the FAQ contradicts this. My box would not be a new purchase, it would be a reactivation, or, a _new activation_. According to the FAQ, then, I would expect my reactivated box to be $6.95/month with no committment.

If this is true, then it makes it easy for me to consider replacing my 2 STS2 boxes with a new DTS2.....as I could then add one of the others back down the road if I felt I wanted the third tuner.


----------



## timckelley

Has there been any update to the FAQ presented at the time of this thread's OP? It sounds there needs to be.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

timckelley said:


> Has there been any update to the FAQ presented at the time of this thread's OP? It sounds there needs to be.


Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!


----------



## Einselen

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!


I have to agree with the aboves posts. They need a FAQ 2.0. The FAQ helped some, but there are still a lot of gray area cases and there are lots of old users holding out right now to sort it out before taking nay actions.

Pony... where are you?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!


Well that is exactly the kind of hidden overhead TiVo wants to end with these committment periods. You are certainly free to use the TiVo as you see fit adn I can think of many legitimate reasons to have a TiVo off for 6 months - summer home; only use it during major events like Baseball playoffs or Olympics etc... but for TiVo there is the added bookkeeping overhead of DVRs being turned on or off as they just keep going month to month. The 1 year committment was enough to chop out that expense to TiVo though. The new plans in total suggest that the 1 year contract is doing OK by TiVo inc's analysis and they saw the risk of switching all plans over to one unified structure as worth the risk.

Note though MediaLivingRoom that I am fully aware that this imapcts you as paying more cost for something you do not use regularly and of course no one likes to pay more cost. TiVo is working with a larger number set that just one or even some subscribers though - and that may be the main gripe in all this. People that have been with TiVo for 4 or more years felt at first like TiVo looked out for every single subscriber and of course the numbers were smaller adn TiVo did indeed need to cling to every *single* subscription. They never made a profit doing this though and now times have changed and TiVo policy is round the whole subscription base and what will make a profit - not just what will keep every single subscriber


----------



## Ereth

c3 said:


> If I want *ALL* of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.


I wish Comcasts pricing was consistent! I'm paying $20 extra for EACH cablecard, and the digital classic would add another $40 or so to my bill.


----------



## BobCamp1

I think Tivo is trying to figure out (or reexamining) all the gray areas from the previous FAQ.
This DOES hurt existing customers -- those who wanted to add new boxes or add old boxes back to their subscription. I don't think Tivo realized the impact that this would have on them. 

People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology. It is simply changing too fast now and there are too many unknowns. That is why Consumer Reports magazine is advising people to rent a box from month-to-month for now.


----------



## timckelley

BobCamp1 said:


> People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology. It is simply changing too fast now and there are too many unknowns. That is why Consumer Reports magazine is advising people to rent a box from month-to-month for now.


contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way?


----------



## 1283

BobCamp1 said:


> People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology.


But lifetime service was so popular that TiVo had to discontinue it. Lifetimed units was doing quite well on eBay even when TiVo was still offering lifetime service.


----------



## Gai-jin

timckelley said:


> contract not tied to box.
> 
> contract tied to service.
> 
> Has this been mentioned yet, by the way?


Great, so when (if) dish, dtv, or my local cable co come out with a great new box that has more features than any tivo on the market, can I use tivo's service with it?

Hmm... so, even not tied to the box, it's still severely limiting my options.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

ZeoTiVo said:


> Well that is exactly the kind of hidden overhead TiVo wants to end with these committment periods. You are certainly free to use the TiVo as you see fit adn I can think of many legitimate reasons to have a TiVo off for 6 months - summer home; only use it during major events like Baseball playoffs or Olympics etc... but for TiVo there is the added bookkeeping overhead of DVRs being turned on or off as they just keep going month to month. The 1 year committment was enough to chop out that expense to TiVo though. The new plans in total suggest that the 1 year contract is doing OK by TiVo inc's analysis and they saw the risk of switching all plans over to one unified structure as worth the risk.
> 
> Note though MediaLivingRoom that I am fully aware that this imapcts you as paying more cost for something you do not use regularly and of course no one likes to pay more cost. TiVo is working with a larger number set that just one or even some subscribers though - and that may be the main gripe in all this. People that have been with TiVo for 4 or more years felt at first like TiVo looked out for every single subscriber and of course the numbers were smaller adn TiVo did indeed need to cling to every *single* subscription. They never made a profit doing this though and now times have changed and TiVo policy is round the whole subscription base and what will make a profit - not just what will keep every single subscriber


Maybe they should only have a reconnect $2.00 fee to cover that cost AND leave the same MSD if it's on the same Account and Same TSN.

At comcast, anyone can turn in and cancel a DVR, they just charge a Change fee of a few bucks.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> But lifetime service was so popular that TiVo had to discontinue it. Lifetimed units was doing quite well on eBay even when TiVo was still offering lifetime service.


Lifetime service makes sense and != long term contract.

In most people's minds, lifetime makes the tivo more like a vcr or other consumer electronics device, where you pay the price for the equipment, and it just works, no service fee's required.

Most people don't like monthly fee's, and don't see why you would pay one for a digital vcr (read: TiVo). This combined with an inherent dislike for being locked into a situation, with no option of changing or discontinuing the service all together, adds up to the fact that people who saw lifetime as a good investment will see a minimum service term on tivo as something to run from.


----------



## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> Hmm... so, even not tied to the box, it's still severely limiting my options.


TiVo limiting your options to TiVo boxes. What a great concept!


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> TiVo limiting your options to TiVo boxes. What a great concept!


I certainly can't blame them for wanting me to stay with tivo. I'm just pointing out that the 'contract is on service, not on box' argument doesn't really mean much.


----------



## zalusky

timckelley said:


> contract not tied to box.
> 
> contract tied to service.
> 
> Has this been mentioned yet, by the way?


Yes but I am assuming it means if you have 4 boxes, you have to keep 4 boxes.

But what if the kids go away or you decide to use slingbox as a gateway to of the displays.

What if a server comes out that can serve multiple displays similar to the ATT Uverse solution.

It changes the business model and you might not want to maintain all 4 connections.

With DTV you can disconnect a mirror'd receiver without penalty. You just need to maintain the base service.

Is that true here?


----------



## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> I certainly can't blame them for wanting me to stay with tivo. I'm just pointing out that the 'contract is on service, not on box' argument doesn't really mean much.


It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.


----------



## tbeckner

BobCamp1 said:


> This DOES hurt existing customers -- those who wanted to add new boxes or add old boxes back to their subscription. I don't think Tivo realized the impact that this would have on them.


 *I agree!*

I was going to reactivate my SVR-2000 and add a DT to my cable feed, but when I went to do that on November 4th I was surprised by the new pricing, which IMHO is clear out of sight; remember I was originally on the $9.95 plan in 2000.

I have put my SD SA TiVo/cable plans on an indefinite hold and I am reconsidering any possible future move to a Series 3 and HD on cable. I will now likely plan to expand my DirecTiVo SD recording capacity and DirecTV channels selections and drop cable, and as far as HD is concerned, the HR10-250 is starting to look like a reasonable selection.

If I had five SA TiVos (1 Regular, 4 Multi) on a one year contract, the monthly cost would be prohibitive; even a three year contract would be somewhat unreasonable, because five DirecTiVos only cost me $25.95 per month, but that is really only $5.99 more per month, because the other $19.96 would be charged for DirecTV receivers.

_So, FIVE DUAL-TUNER TIVOs actually only cost me $5.99 per month with NO CONTRACT. What a DEAL!_


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.


I don't think that's the concern of most people here. I think the concern is not wanting to commit to any one solution for a period of years. So, in one very limited way, your argument has merit. However, it is being tossed around here as the solution to many issues which it doesn't begin to address.


----------



## bicker

HDTiVo said:


> How would you rate the opinion of someone with over 20 years experience analyzing business strategies particularly in the technology arena?


You mean someone like me? Pretty low. Gut-feel cannot hold a candle to management based on facts.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> So how is it that you can be so certain of one mistake, yet declare that I can't know whether another issue was a mistake or not?


I can't be -- I exaggerated my level of certainty about the S3 situation. (I'm mature enough to admit it. Are you mature enough to admit your earlier exaggeration?)



> As for my gut feeling vs. market research, can you show me said market research?


No. And neither can you. Face it. You're just blowing smoke. You have as much right to blow smoke as anyone else, but at least be honest about what you're doing.


----------



## bubba1972

I did the VIP lifetime transfer to a new S3. I now have the Tivo provided prepaid year on the old S2. Does anyone know what monthly rate Tivo equates that free year at?

What will my options be at the end of the year to get the $6.95 MSD service rate on it? It obviously isn't a new box since I have had it for 4 years. Will I have to commit to a 3yr contract to get the cheaper rate that I was expecting to get at for month to month with no commitment?


----------



## dswallow

Researched "facts" ignore many things.

Such as perhaps the new pricing scheme, alone, results in more people willing to try the unit, but combined with the bad word of mouth from the existing subscriber base from the markedly higher pricing structure on new units, might be a net negative.


----------



## 1283

Oh, BTW, I heard a TiVo radio ad last Saturday, 1st time in a looong time. The emphasis was "free TiVo".


----------



## ZeoTiVo

c3 said:


> Oh, BTW, I heard a TiVo radio ad last Saturday, 1st time in a looong time. The emphasis was "free TiVo".


at the end of the day it boils down to getting by Christmas cheaply adn just paying monthly. So Free box and just subscribe to our service with cool extra features adn free updates to add more. That is indeed the strategy but the pricing itself puts the whole thing on more of a premium footing especially as most people talk about the 1 year price and see multiple years as just a tradeoff discount. So if I was new to TiVo I would be thinking 19.95 a month - oh well for some extra upfront cash I can at least get anotehr tuner in the box.


----------



## borderline

timckelley said:


> contract not tied to box.
> 
> contract tied to service.
> 
> Has this been mentioned yet, by the way?





c3 said:


> It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.


Yes, it has been mentioned numerous times that the contract is not tied to the box. So if you don't mind losing out on ~$200 in rebates you can purchase new hardware and transfer the service to it. Not much of a benefit since the early termination fee is at most $200.

And yes, I know there is currently no rebate available for the Series 3. But it seems to me that that is likely to change once TiVo has given a chance for all the early adopters to purchase at full price.


----------



## Pab Sungenis

Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"

People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.

I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.


----------



## Gai-jin

Pab Sungenis said:


> Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.
> 
> Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"
> 
> People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.
> 
> I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.


I'm not sure what you missed, but your numbers are all wrong.

If you buy a unit purchased retail, or a previously owned box on the shortest commitment term of 1 year, you pay 19.95, or 13.95 for msd rate. Same price as if you were getting the box subsidized in the monthly rate.


----------



## smark

smark said:


> I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.


.


----------



## Gai-jin

Smark -- I haven't looked at bb's site, but perhaps that's with a 2 year contract?


----------



## Einselen

smark said:


> I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.


It is best buy, they are conveying incorrect information, what else is new? Sure you can get $14.95/month if you sign up for two year agreement. Makes me wonder if Best Buy is dumb or if they get incentive to sign people up for two years.


----------



## ChuckyBox

bicker said:


> I can't be -- I exaggerated my level of certainty about the S3 situation. (I'm mature enough to admit it. Are you mature enough to admit your earlier exaggeration?)


I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.



> No. And neither can you. Face it. You're just blowing smoke. You have as much right to blow smoke as anyone else, but at least be honest about what you're doing.


TiVo is certainly not going to show anyone the research, but the CEO has mentioned doing it, and the improved conversion rate that it produced, so it likely exists. And there were posts here and there by people who had spotted some of the test marketing of bundled plans last year around this time (or maybe a bit later). So it would be hard to deny that the research was conducted. And since the change to bundled plans online was not trival to execute, there must have been some motivation for it in terms of positive response. And now, after several months of using the bundled pricing online, they were motivated to go through an even bigger change to bring it to retail, again suggesting that it has been working for them. So, even though we can't produce it, I think denying that it exists is the unreasonable position.

On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.


----------



## ChuckyBox

dswallow said:


> Researched "facts" ignore many things.
> 
> Such as perhaps the new pricing scheme, alone, results in more people willing to try the unit, but combined with the bad word of mouth from the existing subscriber base from the markedly higher pricing structure on new units, might be a net negative.


It is hard to imagine a scenario in which that wasn't taken into account. And while we rant and rave about it, and some bloggers blog about it, the vast majority of the TiVo subscriber base is totally unaware of it, because it doesn't affect them, and won't unless they go to buy another unit and see the new pricing.


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> contract not tied to box.
> 
> contract tied to service.
> 
> Has this been mentioned yet, by the way?


How many times do we have to read the same idiotic statement from you?

Sacrifice $150, $180, $220 in rebate. Can't buy a bundle unit that way. Can buy unsubsidized expensive S3, BFD.

You've read the above retorts many times from many people, but you continue to post the same nonsense.



P.S. Your sig could use an update.


----------



## HDTiVo

Gai-jin said:


> Smark -- I haven't looked at bb's site, but perhaps that's with a 2 year contract?


BB is just F'd up as usual.


----------



## HDTiVo

Pab Sungenis said:


> Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.
> 
> Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"
> 
> People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.
> 
> I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.


I *honestly believe * I need to get back into the hot tub and forget I read this.


----------



## HDTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.


And there's a couple folks around here who know that they're in bed with a pig when they wake up next to one.



ChuckyBox said:


> I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.


Oh, then bicker's wrong about everything. There was not that much wrong with the $800-.01 introductory price.


----------



## 1283

HDTiVo said:


> I *honestly believe * I need to get back into the hot tub


Yes, please do.


----------



## samo

> How many times do we have to read the same idiotic statement from you?
> 
> Sacrifice $150, $180, $220 in rebate. Can't buy a bundle unit that way. Can buy unsubsidized expensive S3, BFD.
> 
> You've read the above retorts many times from many people, but you continue to post the same nonsense.


As far as being idiotic or nonsense your post fits better than timckelly's. Present pricing options are very clear. 
1. Free or near free hardware (after rebate) - higher monthly price/longer commitment
2. Unsubsidized hardware - keep your present plan.
You want a third option - free hardware and low sub price/short commitment. That sound moronic to me. Who's going to pay for it? TiVo did it for a while, but can not afford it anymore. Who else is going to pick the tab and why? What is wrong in paying for your DVR out of your own pocket?


----------



## Gai-jin

samo said:


> You want a third option - free hardware and low sub price/short commitment. That sound moronic to me. Who's going to pay for it? TiVo did it for a while, but can not afford it anymore. Who else is going to pick the tab and why? What is wrong in paying for your DVR out of your own pocket?


Nobody's asking for free hardware and no commitment. I want no commitment, or very low commitment, on hardware I already own outright.

Give people a choice:
Buy a box at retail, and decline the rebate. You get a short term commitment and 12.95/mo rate.

Buy box at retail, accept the rebate, current plans apply.

The decline rebate situation would also apply to any used equipment.


----------



## tbeckner

Pab Sungenis said:


> The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.
> 
> I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.


NO! NO! NO!

The rate for an existing box is EXACTLY THE SAME, a one year contract is $19.95 per month. I know that because I verified it online on my account, when I went to reactivate my SVR-2000 on November 4th, see the list enclosed below which is copied directly from the web site on the Select Your Payment Plan page for my old SVR-2000 reactivation, which is where I stopped.

_*So much misinformation!*_

Monthly Options:

$19.95 / The TiVo Service Only 1 Year, Monthly 
$14.95 / The TiVo Service Only 2 Year, Monthly 
$12.95 / The TiVo Service Only 3 Year, Monthly

Prepay Options:

$199.00 / Service Only, 1 Year, Prepay 
$299.00 / Service Only, 2 Year, Prepay 
$299.00 / Service Only, 3 Year, Prepay


----------



## tbeckner

ChuckyBox said:


> It is hard to imagine a scenario in which that wasn't taken into account. And while we rant and rave about it, and some bloggers blog about it, the vast majority of the TiVo subscriber base is totally unaware of it, because it doesn't affect them, and won't unless they go to buy another unit and see the new pricing.


Or try to reactivate an old unit.

I when to reactivate my old SVR-2000 which I originally activated in 2000 and deactivated in 2004 after I bought my DirecTiVos, but stopped when I reached the activation screen and found the new one year rate of $19.95.

IMHO the craziest thing TiVo has ever done, especially since the SVR-2000 cost about $500 and was activated almost FOUR years, the subscription should not have jumped to pay for the hardware, which was paid for in the purchase cost and previous monthly subscription.


----------



## dswallow

The primary complaint is that there's no price difference between getting a free, new TiVo unit and reactivating a TiVo unit you already own or buy on the used market.

So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.


----------



## ChuckyBox

tbeckner said:


> IMHO the craziest thing TiVo has ever done, especially since the SVR-2000 cost about $500 and was activated almost FOUR years, the subscription should not have jumped to pay for the hardware, which was paid for in the purchase cost and previous monthly subscription.


We'll see how it all works out eventually, but I would like them to offer lower pricing on "unencumbered" (i.e., SAC-recovered) boxes. If they can make money charging $12.95/month on a three-year sub (or $6.95 on three-year MSD) that includes a box, surely they can make money on a 1-year sub at that price where the box's owner is known to have fulfilled his rebate or bundle obligation.

My guess is they got this program out for the holiday selling season -- because it focuses on new hardware and new subscribers, and tries to leave existing subscribers alone, which covers probably 99% of the cases they have to worry about -- but they'll realize quickly that having people throw away hardware (that they would otherwise resubscribe) just because they can get new hardware for free for the same price is wasteful and not economically sound.

But what do I know? Maybe they have another agenda.


----------



## ChuckyBox

dswallow said:


> The primary complaint is that there's no price difference between getting a free, new TiVo unit and reactivating a TiVo unit you already own or buy on the used market.
> 
> So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.


Just what I was saying in my previous post that I was writing while you were posting this. Makes no sense, unless they are trying to get people to swap out old hardware. I can't see any reason for that (nor does the company really have the money for it -- they need subscribers, and (at this point anyway) nothing the new hardware does vs. the old hardware generates any money that would justify forcing such a swap). Which makes me think we might eventually see some kind of "resubscribe" option.


----------



## ashu

Yeah, the expectation to re-up and sweeten the pot (from TiVo's) with owned, cost-recovered old units is unreasonable.

Forced phasing out and obsoleting of aging hardware is one thing, but they went a smidgen too far!

Hopefully the outcry will convince them to self-correct ... fingers corssed!


----------



## dstoffa

dswallow said:


> So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.


The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.

Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!


----------



## Einselen

dstoffa said:


> The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.
> 
> Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!


It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.


----------



## dswallow

Einselen said:


> It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.


They had free TiVo units that could be obtained and added to existing accounts before? Prior to this most recent pricing change I thought the "free" units couldn't qualify for service only until the commitment period agreed to up front was over (i.e.; there were package prices including hardware that were separate from other hardware you could buy at retail and just pay service on).


----------



## samo

> We'll see how it all works out eventually, but I would like them to offer lower pricing on "unencumbered" (i.e., SAC-recovered) boxes. If they can make money charging $12.95/month on a three-year sub (or $6.95 on three-year MSD) that includes a box, surely they can make money on a 1-year sub at that price where the box's owner is known to have fulfilled his rebate or bundle obligation.


I'm almost willing to bet that people who will call to re-activate old boxes will get some kind of deal. It is not a secret that people who called to cancel a sub quite often get $6.95/month deal as an incentive not to cancel. When I called to cancel my 2 SA units, I could have a deal that probably nobody on this board was offered. After about half an hour on the phone (guy was so nice I didn't have guts to cut him short) TiVo CSR told me that because I'm one of the first 10,000 TiVo customers, I can have both of my units for $6.95/month. I was flattered, but had to tell him "no deal" - I really don't have any use for SA Tivos. So I'm sure that on case by case basis TiVo will accommodate unusual situations.


----------



## Einselen

dswallow said:


> They had free TiVo units that could be obtained and added to existing accounts before? Prior to this most recent pricing change I thought the "free" units couldn't qualify for service only until the commitment period agreed to up front was over (i.e.; there were package prices including hardware that were separate from other hardware you could buy at retail and just pay service on).


You could find some good deals if you wanted to in order to get the Tivos at those lower prices. It wasn't standard and simple, but not too complex to find either.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.


How do you figure? If you bought a bundle before, you didn't get msd rate. If you bought retail, the rebate didn't cover full cost of the tivo.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> How do you figure? If you bought a bundle before, you didn't get msd rate. If you bought retail, the rebate didn't cover full cost of the tivo.


There have been multiple offers in which there was a retailer rebate (compusa, circuit city, best buy) which did make the box FAR. There have also been multiple offers where you could buy a 80 hr ST for $83.40 for one year of service. Both I have seen for awhile more so the first, but then within the past 3 months or even longer the second.


----------



## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> Nobody's asking for free hardware and no commitment. I want no commitment, or very low commitment, on hardware I already own outright.
> 
> Give people a choice:
> Buy a box at retail, and decline the rebate. You get a short term commitment and 12.95/mo rate.
> 
> Buy box at retail, accept the rebate, current plans apply.
> 
> The decline rebate situation would also apply to any used equipment.


I actually agree with everything you said there.  That's one hole that TiVo needs to patch.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> I actually agree with everything you said there.  That's one hole that TiVo needs to patch.


 

Seriously, if there was an option to re-activate an existing box* without being forced to help subsidize someone else's free tivo, I'd be much less upset about these new plans.

*This would have to include a way to purchase a new box outright w/o rebate, or received through tivo rewards.

(As it stands, the value of 25000 tivo rewards points is exactly $69.99, or the difference between a free S2 tivo and a S2DT tivo when buying the bundle.)


----------



## bicker

dswallow said:


> Researched "facts" ignore many things.


Anything is possible. However, the main advantage of facts is that they tend to help folks make better decisions, by comparison to decisions made by guessing.


----------



## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.


It wasn't what I had in mind, actually, but it is a great example, and in reality it must have been a mistake, based on nothing other than TiVo's acknowledgement that it was a mistake.



> TiVo is certainly not going to show anyone the research, but the CEO has mentioned doing it, and the improved conversion rate that it produced, so it likely exists. And there were posts here and there by people who had spotted some of the test marketing of bundled plans last year around this time (or maybe a bit later). So it would be hard to deny that the research was conducted. And since the change to bundled plans online was not trival to execute, there must have been some motivation for it in terms of positive response. And now, after several months of using the bundled pricing online, they were motivated to go through an even bigger change to bring it to retail, again suggesting that it has been working for them. So, even though we can't produce it, I think denying that it exists is the unreasonable position. *On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.*


Absolutely. Very well said!


----------



## timckelley

dstoffa said:


> The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.
> 
> Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!


The exception being, of course, us lifetimers who have incentive to hold on to our lifetime boxes.


----------



## HDTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> but they'll realize quickly that having people throw away hardware (that they would otherwise resubscribe) just because they can get new hardware for free for the same price is wasteful and not economically sound....
> 
> Which makes me think we might eventually see some kind of "resubscribe" option.


Maybe they'll get around to thinking about that sometime after they perfect the FAQ.


----------



## tbeckner

samo said:


> I'm almost willing to bet that people who will call to re-activate old boxes will get some kind of deal.


Just tried that, NO DEAL, TiVo refuses to give us LONG TIME SUPPORTERS a deal on old already paid back boxes.

I called and the Customer Support Rep would not make any deal except the standard $19.95 per month ONE YEAR COMMITTMENT. I told her that I couldn't commit to anything longer than a year on an almost SEVEN year old box, the SVR-2000, and that $19.95 per month was highway robbery.

I thought that I would give it a try, but no dice.

Funny thing, that is $12.95 per month that they aren't getting to pay the bills, VERY STUPID! I bought the SVR-2000 in May 2000 for $500-$600, started service on May 23, 2000 and continued service until January 2004 (I cancelled service after buying three DirecTiVos (HDVR2).).

A phrase comes to my mind: *"cut off your nose to spite your face"* :down:


----------



## Thos19

Okay...Just to clarify:

I own:

one Series 2 Tivo with lifetime
one Series 1 Tivo with no subscription, never activated, only used for manual recordings

If I decide today that I want to use MSD for the Series 1 Tivo, am I eligible for the $6.95 rate with no commitment requirement, or does the new 1-2-3 year pricing structure apply?

Thanks,

Thos.


----------



## samo

tbeckner said:


> Just tried that, NO DEAL, TiVo refuses to give us LONG TIME SUPPORTERS a deal on old already paid back boxes.
> 
> I called and the Customer Support Rep would not make any deal except the standard $19.95 per month ONE YEAR COMMITTMENT. I told her that I couldn't commit to anything longer than a year on an almost SEVEN year old box, the SVR-2000, and that $19.95 per month was highway robbery.


That is more disturbing than a pricing structure itself. This is a 180 degree reversal from un-written policy from just 7-8 months ago. This means that TiVo gave up on developing loyal customers and went after one-time "get what you can" deals. Very strong sign of major shift in company direction. Generally these type of shifts are characteristics of the company going under. Hope this is not a case, but just about every dot.com had similar shift before going belly up.


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## timckelley

Uh oh.... TiVo is on it's way out.


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## Billy66

It's just as likely that they haven't worked out a solid retention strategy to keep Tbeckner's $12.95. I hope they're smart enough to do it eventually even if they aren't wise enough to have it in place on day one.

I, for one, think they'll figure out a way to get as many people to pay their new price as they can, and that there will be special discounts or opportunitites to "stay with Tivo for less"

Obviously, given Tivo's track record in marketing endeavors, nobody should be surprised that they've neglected that aspect to this point.


----------



## parzec

Yep - this is the beginning of the end for Tivo and I never thought I would say it. Screwing long time users with full price paid for boxes is a huge mistake. Price point of 19.95 is a deal breaker for most, I think but only time will tell. While the prices of all other technologies drop over time, tivo decides to increase? Hopefully, tivo will lose enough money to cause a reversal of the policy before they sink completely and fire the MBA moron who suggested this change. Anyway, who in good concience can recommend tivo to a friend - or even worse give one as a "gift" given all the strings tied to subs? I personally am boycotting Tivo until the policies change. Just scratched the s3 from my Christmas list and spreading the word not to buy tivo....sad but true.


----------



## dbenrosen

As for price increases, Internet service from the cable company was $29.99 when I first got it. A year later it was increased to $39.99 and the year after that to $49.99, but with a $5 monthly rebate because I had a certain level of cable TV.

Recently they moved two stations from the analog service to digital. I lost two stations, one of which my wife watched, or I had the option of getting a STB to get the station at an additional cost of $7/month. Essentially the cable company increased my service for TV by 10%. And the additional box came with some scam charge of $1.50 for additional outlet.

This is just a sample of large price increases.


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## 1283

parzec said:


> While the prices of all other technologies drop over time, tivo decides to increase?


Hardware cost goes down. Service cost goes up. My Comcast bill will go up by 33% in the near future.


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## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> That is more disturbing than a pricing structure itself. This is a 180 degree reversal from un-written policy from just 7-8 months ago. This means that TiVo gave up on developing loyal customers and went after one-time "get what you can" deals. Very strong sign of major shift in company direction. Generally these type of shifts are characteristics of the company going under. Hope this is not a case, but just about every dot.com had similar shift before going belly up.


Whoa there, sport. I think we've all agreed that TiVo's CSRs (like all CSRs) range from knowledgable and helpful to complete f'ing moron robots. I doubt they speak The One True Policy this early in the game (especially because I doubt the policy has been cast in stone yet).

Besides, a guy in the other pricing thread reported getting the $6.95 MSD rate without much problem.


----------



## ChuckyBox

parzec said:


> Just scratched the s3 from my Christmas list...


Bummer for you. The S3 is a pretty sweet box. For under a grand you can get the box and three years service. But I guess if a few bucks a month is that big a deal to you, you probably aren't in that market. Still, if somebody is going to give it to you for Christmas...


----------



## sean-of-w

*I wish I didn't have to have to post this message.*

I've been proclaiming the TiVoey goodness for about a year now, and these pricing changes mean the end of that. I'm posting this message in hopes that the powers-that-be at TiVo see it and understand the consequences of their choices.

I own a 40-hour Series 2 TiVo box. I bought it in January 2006, and bought a year's prepaid subscription for it. From my perspective, the renewal price for the subscription, coming up in January, was reasonably justified by the quality of the service. Comcast's DVRs were passable, but TiVo is simple, friendly, powerful, and flexible. My girlfriend and I have been quite happy with it, and it's a miserable thought to have to go back to live TV after it. I've extolled the virtues of TiVoness to anyone who would listen.

I came to TiVo's web site today, November 14, 2006, to look at pricing plans, because she and I were considering buying a TiVo box and subscription for her family as a Christmas gift.

*The result of the pricing changes is this:*

We will not be buying a TiVo box and subscription for her family because it's simply too expensive --- the subscription, not the box. We can't justify the cost, especially compared to some of the deals I was seeing for TiVo boxes and service this summer. Yes, the upfront cost is cheaper, but the ongoing costs are just not worth it. Just because we watch TV doesn't mean we're stupid.

Before today, TiVo had me as a customer for life. Not a "lifetime" subscription, mind you, because I wanted the ability to upgrade my box at irregular intervals, but a "for life" customer --- I was looking forward to renewing my TiVo service this coming January, and doing so for successive Januaries pretty much ad infinitum. Now I'm grudgingly accepting that I will renew the TiVo service _this_ January, _but I will probably not do so the year after_ because Comcast keeps sweetening their deals and TiVo keeps souring theirs.

So, congratulations, TiVo. With me, you'll be losing not just a customer but one who has been heavily proselytizing for you, and looking at signing up new customers too. *I hope you like my two hundred bucks this January, because it's very likely to be my parting gift to you.*

These are my two cents. Take 'em or leave 'em as you see fit.


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## timckelley

Ouch!


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## ChuckyBox

sean-of-w said:


> b]I hope you like my two hundred bucks this January, because it's very likely to be my parting gift to you.[/b]


If you were planning to sign up year after year as you claim, why don't you just call them in January and see if they'll give you the $12.95/month price?

As for your in-laws, for $200 you get a box and a year's service, just like before. Then they can decide if they want to keep paying for it and how much. Maybe they'll like it so much they get the three-year prepay deal. Or maybe they'll love it and get an S3. Or maybe they'll hate it and never use it. Or you could come up with $300 and get the box plus three years service (that's just $100 for two additional years of service -- about $4/month).


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## sean-of-w

ChuckyBox said:


> If you were planning to sign up year after year as you claim, why don't you just call them in January and see if they'll give you the $12.95/month price?


Because I shouldn't have to call them and sit on hold and finally argue with a customer "service" representative just to pay the same price I've been paying all along.



ChuckyBox said:


> As for your in-laws, for $200 you get a box and a year's service, just like before. Then they can decide if they want to keep paying for it and how much.


I know them pretty well; they love their TV dramas in the evening. They'd be hooked on the general concept of a DVR, and I can't in good conscience hook them on TiVo, especially considering that they live in a remote area served by a very small cable company that does not have its own DVRs. They'd be stuck with whatever new pricing plans TiVo comes up with. $200 this year? $300 next year? $500 the year after that? How long before they're as unhappy with TiVo's prices as I now am?

Ever since my friend Matt got TiVo about four years ago, I've been telling myself I needed to get the thing, not just to keep up with the Joneses, but because it was obviously making him much happier with his TV viewing. Finally I bit the bullet and got it myself because TiVo had demonstrated themselves to be a good company, trustworthy, solid, and reliable, with good products and a good service. They've built up a lot of trust with me over the past year --- and they lost all of it in an instant today.

I can't in good conscience refer someone I care about to a company I don't trust. Right now I feel severely betrayed, and TiVo is going to have to do a lot of work to make me feel like they actually give a damn about having me as a customer.

(For what it's worth, we're now getting her parents a new vacuum cleaner because their current one is ten thousand years older than sand. It was either that or TiVo, and TiVo had a much higher "cool" factor. But, honestly, they need the vacuum cleaner more.)

The increase in price from $12.95/month to $199/year (=$16.58/month) is an increase of 28%. The increase in price from $12.95/month to $19.95/month is an increase of 54%. Even Comcast hasn't been raising their rates _that_ fast, and they have a solid history of being the single worst offender in the cable industry for rate-raising.


----------



## ChuckyBox

sean-of-w said:


> Because I shouldn't have to call them and sit on hold and finally argue with a customer "service" representative just to pay the same price I've been paying all along.


Wait. If you've been paying $12.95, or the 1-year prepay, you don't have to do anything. You'll just roll over into the $12.95/month automatically. I thought you were on a bundle. My bad.



> I can't in good conscience refer someone I care about to a company I don't trust. Right now I feel severely betrayed, and TiVo is going to have to do a lot of work to make me feel like they actually give a damn about having me as a customer.


You feel betrayed because they raised their prices? Did they promise you that they wouldn't?


----------



## rainwater

ChuckyBox said:


> You feel betrayed because they raised their prices? Did they promise you that they wouldn't?


I was told by TiVo CS when I bought my boxes that once my bundled boxes 1-year contract was up that the prices would switch from $19.95 on both the boxes to $6.95 and $12.95 respectively. However, that doesn't seem to be the case now.


----------



## myf16

ChuckyBox said:


> We'll see how it all works out eventually, but I would like them to offer lower pricing on "unencumbered" (i.e., SAC-recovered) boxes. If they can make money charging $12.95/month on a three-year sub (or $6.95 on three-year MSD) that includes a box, surely they can make money on a 1-year sub at that price where the box's owner is known to have fulfilled his rebate or bundle obligation.


Your logic is sound, but that doesn't mean Tivo will listen.

True story: Early this year I called T-Mobile wanting to add a cell phone to my family plan for an extra $10 per month. A phone that I had bought myself on ebay, a phone that T-Mobile had in no way subsidized. They said sure, but you have to extend your contract 12 months from today. Oh, and of course you'll have to pay the activation fee to cover our costs for adding the phone to our records.

I couldn't believe it, but that's their policy and even the supervisors will not waive it. You have to lock them in for 12 months any time they change anything on your account. (As far as I know, T-Mobile still has this idiotic policy.)

I said "No deal". I resold the extra phone on ebay and went to Cingular a few months later with 2 new subsidized phones. If you're going to lock me in you have to pay me!

These companies play the numbers with aggressive lock-in policies. The only thing that matters is whether enough customers vote with their feet by dropping service. Talk on a forum like this means very little by comparison.


----------



## Einselen

rainwater said:


> I was told by TiVo CS when I bought my boxes that once my bundled boxes 1-year contract was up that the prices would switch from $19.95 on both the boxes to $6.95 and $12.95 respectively. However, that doesn't seem to be the case now.


Are we in a world now in which we have to now say that this condition is now and it could change by tomorrow?


----------



## rainwater

Einselen said:


> Are we in a world now in which we have to now say that this condition is now and it could change by tomorrow?


The problem is they sold a lot of these one year bundled offers based off the fact that we could get a better monthly price on the boxes (and MSD) once the year was up. But then when the contract is over they are basically telling bundled users who contracts are almost over that we are a bunch of suckers.


----------



## timckelley

rainwater said:


> But then when the contract is over they are basically telling bundled users who contracts are almost over that we are a bunch of suckers.


Apparently, from a lot of the testimony here, many of us are.


----------



## Einselen

rainwater said:


> The problem is they sold a lot of these one year bundled offers based off the fact that we could get a better monthly price on the boxes (and MSD) once the year was up. But then when the contract is over they are basically telling bundled users who contracts are almost over that we are a bunch of suckers.


I understand how you feel cheated or suckered however if you buy a 1 yr of service now do you expect after that year is up you will be able to sign up for 3 more years at $12.95/month? (Assume this is your only Tivo and don't plan to get another in the year)

Should Tivo honor the old prices especially for thos in your situation who bought a package to save money and hassle then buying retail and applying the MSD on that box? In good business practice probably. Should you have expected that in one year the price plans would be the same? No not unless it was written in your terms. Have you called up Tivo yet to find out if they will honor those prices? I have yet to read if you have or not from what I can remember, you may have said something and I just missed it.


----------



## sean-of-w

ChuckyBox said:


> Wait. If you've been paying $12.95, or the 1-year prepay, you don't have to do anything. You'll just roll over into the $12.95/month automatically. I thought you were on a bundle. My bad.


Where is this stated? It looks from the TiVo pricing page like once my one-year prepay is up, I'm stuck paying $199 for another one, an increase of $43/year.



ChuckyBox said:


> You feel betrayed because they raised their prices? Did they promise you that they wouldn't?


That's a loaded question: Of course they didn't. But customer loyalty is something that every company strives to grow and maintain; that's the only thing that kept Apple alive during the Bad Years of the late '80s and early '90s. The only thing that can kill customer loyalty is bad business decisions, chief among which is bad customer service. With this decision, TiVo is _choosing_ to alienate its current customer base --- and you can't claim that a company that smart didn't know that would be the outcome. Feelings of betrayal are a natural outcome of alienation.


----------



## Einselen

sean-of-w said:


> Where is this stated? It looks from the TiVo pricing page like once my one-year prepay is up, I'm stuck paying $199 for another one, an increase of $43/year.


Pony stated in the FAQ that they will honor (for now) the $12.95/month price as long as your unit was activated before Nov 4th. I don't remember the exact wording he used, but it is in the very first post.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> I understand how you feel cheated or suckered however if you buy a 1 yr of service now do you expect after that year is up you will be able to sign up for 3 more years at $12.95/month? (Assume this is your only Tivo and don't plan to get another in the year)
> 
> Should Tivo honor the old prices especially for thos in your situation who bought a package to save money and hassle then buying retail and applying the MSD on that box? In good business practice probably. Should you have expected that in one year the price plans would be the same? No not unless it was written in your terms. Have you called up Tivo yet to find out if they will honor those prices? I have yet to read if you have or not from what I can remember, you may have said something and I just missed it.


But it was explained this way here on the forums, when the bundle plans first started. (wasn't that just over a year ago?)

We were told that once our year is up, we could get the msd rate w/ only another 1 year sub, or continue with another 1 year sub at 12.95. And yet, 1 year later, they change the rules. (Before many of the 1 year contracts in question have ended)


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> Pony stated in the FAQ that they will honor (for now) the $12.95/month price as long as your unit was activated before Nov 4th. I don't remember the exact wording he used, but it is in the very first post.


As worded, this only applied to monthly subs, not to prepay.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> As worded, this only applied to monthly subs, not to prepay.


Applies for both



TivoPony said:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


----------



## rainwater

Einselen said:


> Pony stated in the FAQ that they will honor (for now) the $12.95/month price as long as your unit was activated before Nov 4th. I don't remember the exact wording he used, but it is in the very first post.


Pony's statement does not address the prepaid bundles at all. From reading the FAQ, anyone on a bundle is stuck with the new pricing options once the bundle is over.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> But it was explained this way here on the forums, when the bundle plans first started. (wasn't that just over a year ago?)
> 
> We were told that once our year is up, we could get the msd rate w/ only another 1 year sub, or continue with another 1 year sub at 12.95. And yet, 1 year later, they change the rules. (Before many of the 1 year contracts in question have ended)


Again they wre explaining how that current pricing plan worked. I am sure Tivo did not plan at the time to change or not change the pricing options. I am surprised we don't have a huge conspiracy going on that Tivo knew of the price plan changes and therefore setup the old plans to "trap" people.

Again I wask are we living in a world where we have to say after everything that this is how it works today but it could change tomorrow?

I could call up Circuit City and get a price check on an item. If the price changes tomorrow should I complain that I was told that the item was this price yesterday? Now if I call up and I pick it up in the store a hour later that is different, but after some significant time passes things do change.


----------



## Gai-jin

No, but if you say -- sign a 1 year contract today, and 1 year from now you'll have these options, then by gollie those options better be available.


----------



## Gai-jin

Einselen said:


> Applies for both


Odd, I could swear it wasn't originally worded that way.


----------



## Einselen

Gai-jin said:


> No, but if you say -- sign a 1 year contract today, and 1 year from now you'll have these options, then by gollie those options better be available.


I do agree and say Tivo should honor it. Tivo should probably even have a window, maybe 6 months, maybe 9, maybe even a year in which if your subscription ends you can still activate at the old prices (of $12.95/month and/or MSD fo $6.95/month without the 3 yr contract, still though having to commit to 1 yr). If they don't want to do that then do some grandfather clause on the date of activation on the units, I just think a certain from the new pricing would be easier to set and cover everyone (or mostly if they go the 6 or 9 month route) in that special situation. I am not Tivo however so I can't make that happen. It is also still early now so Tivo may have some extra grandfather clause added to the old pricing plans, I mean it worked with the old S1s and worked again during the S3s however I would not hold my breath waiting for it.


----------



## sean-of-w

Einselen said:


> Pony stated in the FAQ that they will honor (for now) the $12.95/month price as long as your unit was activated before Nov 4th. I don't remember the exact wording he used, but it is in the very first post.


I've read his post several times, and as yet, TiVo's official position on this matter seems pretty unclear, and possibly _less_ clear with his posting. Even if my costs _do_ stay at $12.95/month, there's two worries: First, I have to deal with (yet another) monthly charge on my (already-too-long) credit card bill; I'd rather just pay the bloody year in advance and have the simpler bills. And second, given that TiVo reserves the right to discontinue or change the monthly pricing at any point in time, there's no guarantee that I won't pay $12.95 in January and $19.95 in February. And $29.95 in March. And $49.95 in April. I no longer trust TiVo to be honest and open about their pricing policies, and that alone is a good reason to start searching for alternatives, much as I'm loathe to do it.


----------



## Einselen

sean-of-w said:


> I'd rather just pay the bloody year in advance and have the simpler bills.


If that is the case pay the year in advance and get a new box. Right now the price is $199, but that could change right after this post so don't hold me to it.

Better case is to get a new box and prepay for 3 years which at the time of this post comes out to $8.31/month and then if you want to upgrade transfer the service (again most likely you will have to forfeit rebates, but who knows how those terms will change).


----------



## Einselen

sean-of-w said:


> And second, given that TiVo reserves the right to discontinue or change the monthly pricing at any point in time, there's no guarantee that I won't pay $12.95 in January and $19.95 in February. And $29.95 in March. And $49.95 in April.


I believe this is said that come tomorrow Tivo may not honor the $12.95 month to month price. Once you get in it thought you should have it until you change your account or cancel (which technically speaking is a change). I know before that after my cell phone contract was up I would pay month to month at the price I was paying before. Cingular then took over AT&T Wireless (my carrier) and I kept with that still month to month price even though cingular plans were different. I finally upgraded my phone and signed a new contract. I believe the same is here, even saying it is not the case and Tivo can do what you are saying you are paying month to month and can cancel at any time without any penalty.

I would assume the first case is true as Tivo is allowing those with $6.95/month to carry on at that price.


----------



## Gai-jin

Don't think so, when the price went from 9.95 to 12.95, nobody was grandfathered in.


----------



## Budget_HT

Here is my simple understanding based on reading this entire thread and having prior awareness of TiVo's support for existing customers.

After completing the initial contract/bundled rate payments and time frame, Tivo products activated before November 4th qualify for the current month-to-month rates of $12.95 for the first unit on the account and $6.95 for additional units on the same account. The first unit on an account can be a lifetime subscription unit and all others still qualify for the MSD price of $6.95 each. These prices are subject to change in the future. As I see it, this is typical TiVo "price protection" for existing loyal customers.

For units activated November 4th and after, I am not clear on what a month-to-month rate would be, if available.


----------



## Einselen

Einselen said:


> Tivo should probably even have a window, maybe 6 months, maybe 9, maybe even a year in which if your subscription ends you can still activate at the old prices (of $12.95/month and/or MSD fo $6.95/month without the 3 yr contract, still though having to commit to 1 yr).


Yay for quoting myself! I had another idea that Tivo may want to consider. Maybe Tivo should have a "one time use" of if your Tivo box was activated before Nov 4th 2006 (if they want to do a range of like Nov 4th 2003-Nov 4th 2006 to prevent wasy earlier boxes which don't apply then they could) then one time you can call in and get the box activated at the then monthly rate of the longest committment period (as maybe in a year the longer committment may be 4 years, maybe 2 years) with only 1 year contract. After that one year you will then pay month to month at that same rate. It would be almost like the S1 grandfather clause and be easier then this year after idea I had before, and have less confusion with the monthly rate and the longest committment period.


----------



## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> You feel betrayed because they raised their prices? Did they promise you that they wouldn't?


This is really the crux of the issue, and it relates to the cancer of Entitlement Mentality that has swept the nation. Where the [email protected]&# did people get the idea that they're entitled to dictate what services will be offered to them and at what price? What kind of distortion of reality is this? In the mass-market, the service provider specifies the service offering and the price -- the customer specifies acceptance or not. That's the way it has always been, for everything, products and services.


----------



## bicker

sean-of-w said:


> That's a loaded question: Of course they didn't. But customer loyalty is something that every company strives to grow and maintain


You don't want to go there. What do you think "loyalty" means? For business, it means a customer's willingness to pay a premium for your products and services. It doesn't mean a willingness to pay whatever you want to pay. The whole "customer loyalty" thing has been blown apart by the general public's now-maniacal fascination with price over quality. If Company B will give them the same thing for a dime less, the general public will abandon Company A which has been providing them great service for years. If you think that's loyalty, you've got to be smoking something.



> With this decision, TiVo is _choosing_ to alienate its current customer base


Doubtful. Rather, TiVo is choosing to charge more. We don't have the research on which they're basing this decision. Everyone is really just guessing, and it seems to me a lot of people are just guessing based on how the price change makes them *feel* rather than based on any factual evidence of supporting what they're saying.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> No, but if you say -- sign a 1 year contract today, and 1 year from now you'll have these options, then by gollie those options better be available.


If you have it in writing, then you're golden. If you don't, then blame yourself. I suspect that you didn't get someone to guarantee that the prices you were discussing would not change in the interim. Given that, they have the option to either offer your something better, or have you comply with the regular terms.


----------



## Gai-jin

Hmm, in writing, say perhaps the quote from TivoStephen which was posted earlier in the thread, which explained exactly that?


----------



## HDTiVo

Einselen said:


> Should you have expected that in one year the price plans would be the same?


Should TiVo expect that if they raise prices and/or adversely change contract terms some customers - current and potential - will be annoyed, and some of those will stop patronizing?


----------



## HDTiVo

sean-of-w said:


> With this decision, TiVo is _choosing_ to alienate its current customer base --- and you can't claim that a company that smart didn't know that would be the outcome. Feelings of betrayal are a natural outcome of alienation.


That's about right.


----------



## HDTiVo

Gai-jin said:


> But it was explained this way here on the forums, when the bundle plans first started. (wasn't that just over a year ago?)
> 
> We were told that once our year is up, we could get the msd rate w/ only another 1 year sub, or continue with another 1 year sub at 12.95. And yet, 1 year later, they change the rules. (Before many of the 1 year contracts in question have ended)


It takes more thought than it is worth to figure out these answers.

Then again, I don't have a bundle TiVo, only a retail S3 within 30-day to come up with a "strategy" for. Even that is not really worth thinking about, but as I'm a bit of a hobbyist, I might stick with it.

_edit:

P.S. you got an incorrect impression about being promised that prices/terms would not change. That happens alot around here, so don't feel bad, but it is not fair to blame TiVo for that part._


----------



## HDTiVo

Einselen said:


> Yay for quoting myself! I had another idea that Tivo may want to consider. Maybe Tivo should have a "one time use" of if your Tivo box was activated before Nov 4th 2006 (if they want to do a range of like Nov 4th 2003-Nov 4th 2006 to prevent wasy earlier boxes which don't apply then they could) then one time you can call in and get the box activated at the then monthly rate of the longest committment period (as maybe in a year the longer committment may be 4 years, maybe 2 years) with only 1 year contract. After that one year you will then pay month to month at that same rate. It would be almost like the S1 grandfather clause and be easier then this year after idea I had before, and have less confusion with the monthly rate and the longest committment period.


Wouldn't it just be simpler if TiVo told you not to buy their hardware anymore?

This is the simplest price plan TiVo has ever offered me. Buying a new box is simply not on the table. Keeping the old boxes "as is" until they are no longer "as is" or wanted is simple. The S3 I can ship back or just say f*ck it and take my chances - the most complex part of the situation.

If TiVo did the above, they could: 1) not lose 10's of $millions, 2) not blow much of the money they have on hand, 3) fire all the marketers and a bunch of other cretins, and 4) just become a software provider.


----------



## HDTiVo

bicker said:


> You don't want to go there. What do you think "loyalty" means? For business, it means a customer's willingness to pay a premium for your products and services. It doesn't mean a willingness to pay whatever you want to pay. The whole "customer loyalty" thing has been blown apart by the general public's now-maniacal fascination with price over quality. If Company B will give them the same thing for a dime less, the general public will abandon Company A which has been providing them great service for years. If you think that's loyalty, you've got to be smoking something.
> 
> Doubtful. Rather, TiVo is choosing to charge more. We don't have the research on which they're basing this decision. Everyone is really just guessing, and it seems to me a lot of people are just guessing based on how the price change makes them *feel* rather than based on any factual evidence of supporting what they're saying.


Like you say, you are just blowing smoke.

Like I say, you have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## RoyK

bicker said:


> You don't want to go there. What do you think "loyalty" means? For business, it means a customer's willingness to pay a premium for your products and services. It doesn't mean a willingness to pay whatever you want to pay. The whole "customer loyalty" thing has been blown apart by the general public's now-maniacal fascination with price over quality. If Company B will give them the same thing for a dime less, the general public will abandon Company A which has been providing them great service for years. If you think that's loyalty, you've got to be smoking something.


Its called competition. Makes the world go 'round.



bicker said:


> Doubtful. Rather, TiVo is choosing to charge more. We don't have the research on which they're basing this decision. Everyone is really just guessing, and it seems to me a lot of people are just guessing based on how the price change makes them *feel* rather than based on any factual evidence of supporting what they're saying.


Who gives a flip WHY they're raising the prices? Doesn't matter. Only time will show whether this is a good decision on TiVo's part or it isn't.


----------



## rainwater

HDTiVo said:


> P.S. you got an incorrect impression about being promised that prices/terms would not change. That happens alot around here, so don't feel bad, but it is not fair to blame TiVo for that part.


Even when TiVo CS told me personally?


----------



## RoyK

rainwater said:


> Even when TiVo CS told me personally?


Rain you should have been suspicious right then and there given CS's record of getting things wrong or just plain ignorance of the facts.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

TiVoPony said:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


it would seem to me then that my bundled DT would go to 12.95 automatically at the end of the term some time next summer. If I do nothing it satys at 12.95 monthly with no time committment. Since I have a lifetime unit I read this as I need to call in to get the MSD rate and thus would be subject to going with one of the time options and need to go with 3 years of service to get the 6.95. I might be able to talk TiVo into letting me go with just year to get 6.95 since that was the deal when I purchased the bundle but unless I see some specific grandfathered clause on that then it would be an exception they would be giving me.


----------



## MickeS

sean-of-w said:


> They'd be hooked on the general concept of a DVR, and I can't in good conscience hook them on TiVo, especially considering that they live in a remote area served by a very small cable company that does not have its own DVRs. They'd be stuck with whatever new pricing plans TiVo comes up with.


That's probably one of the funniest justifications for someone's cheapness I've ever read.  "I can't buy it for them, because what if they would like it so much they'd want to keep it after the prepaid-period is up?"   

Yeah, do them a favor and don't get them the only DVR that is available to them.... I'm sure they'll thank you in 3 years that they didn't have to suffer through that hard time...


----------



## rainwater

RoyK said:


> Rain you should have been suspicious right then and there given CS's record of getting things wrong or just plain ignorance of the facts.


If TiVo CS made a mistake, that is not my problem.


----------



## HDTiVo

MickeS said:


> That's probably one of the funniest justifications for someone's cheapness I've ever read.  "I can't buy it for them, because what if they would like it so much they'd want to keep it after the prepaid-period is up?"
> 
> Yeah, do them a favor and don't get them the only DVR that is available to them.... I'm sure they'll thank you in 3 years that they didn't have to suffer through that hard time...


I just realized what a perfect Holiday gift TiVo is. Get it for someone and never have to think what to get them again. Every year get them another year of service.

If you lose your relationship with the person, every year you can think about how they are now paying for their own service.


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## HDTiVo

rainwater said:


> Even when TiVo CS told me personally?


Oh, come on. You are smarter than that.


----------



## jgickler

ZeoTiVo said:


> it would seem to me then that my bundled DT would go to 12.95 automatically at the end of the term some time next summer. If I do nothing it satys at 12.95 monthly with no time committment. Since I have a lifetime unit I read this as I need to call in to get the MSD rate and thus would be subject to going with one of the time options and need to go with 3 years of service to get the 6.95. I might be able to talk TiVo into letting me go with just year to get 6.95 since that was the deal when I purchased the bundle but unless I see some specific grandfathered clause on that then it would be an exception they would be giving me.


So if you do nothing, the price goes to $12.95. If you want to switch to a 1 year plan with MSD, it goes up to $13.95?

What I hope is that the FAQ should say after a year it will go to "12.95 or 6.95 for MSD", but that is not what it says.

In fact, the FAQ can be read to say that after a 1 year prepaid commitment is met the rate will be $19.95 ( month to month rate for 1 year), $13.95 ( month to month rate for 1 year MSD), 12.95 (re FAQ quoted above), and it omits the option that was promised by TivoStephen in the last FAQ $6.95 with a one year commitment.

I hope Tivo does the right thing on this ($6.95 with one year commitment for 1 year prepaid bundles that after the commitment period will qualify for MSD), but frankly the language suggests wiggle room, which to me indicates a strong possibility that the policy will change at some point.

This may seem like a very odd situation, but there were several deals where it was advantageous to buy the unit from Tivo with a prepaid 1 year commitment at $12.95, as opposed to buying retail and getting the MSD pricing immediately. The fact that TivoStephen addressed this situation in the previous FAQ tell me that there are many others with the same situation.


----------



## winpitt

HDTiVo said:


> Wouldn't it just be simpler if TiVo told you not to buy their hardware anymore?
> 
> This is the simplest price plan TiVo has ever offered me. Buying a new box is simply not on the table. Keeping the old boxes "as is" until they are no longer "as is" or wanted is simple. The S3 I can ship back or just say f*ck it and take my chances - the most complex part of the situation.
> 
> If TiVo did the above, they could: 1) not lose 10's of $millions, 2) not blow much of the money they have on hand, 3) fire all the marketers and a bunch of other cretins, and 4) just become a software provider.


Have to agree there. To be honest, I just noticed the rate changes. I was traveling out of the country and didn't see the rate change. Month to month with a 1 yr agreement is $19.95? EGADS! Add the CC cost to it and it's ridiculous for me at least!

The early termination for monthly plans is $200 or remaining balance, right?

This is sad. I have been really focused on giving an S3 a shot after testing CC a bit. Since I currently have 3 DVRs, I was looking at an S3 and 2 S2's. While I'd get the TiVo interface back, I'd lose the ability for dual tuner on two digital channels for the two S2s. Now, this price change likely puts out outside what I'm willing to pay. I can't believe I missed the rate change. Since I'm pretty set on leaving the SA8300's, it looks as though DirecTV is going to get my business. Oh well.


----------



## Gene S

Gai-jin said:


> Don't think so, when the price went from 9.95 to 12.95, nobody was grandfathered in.


The difference was back then, the price of the box and the price of the service were separate. People could justify the increased cost of the service because they were rolling out service and software upgrades.


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## myf16

Tivo's new pricing seems to be inspired by the cellular phone model: heavily subsidized hardware and long-term contracts, with every effort made to lock in the customer for the longest possible period.

I believe that this model is mismatched to Tivo. Why? A cellular telephone is only usable if you have cellular service. Without service, about all you can do is call 911. In contrast, a Tivo box is quite functional and valuable as a digital VCR even without Tivo service. 

Tivo can expect a significant fraction of its newly acquired customers to turn off the service and keep the hardware to use as a digital VCR. In fact, if the monthly rate exceeds $10 (multi-system) I'll be one of those customers.


----------



## rainwater

myf16 said:


> Tivo can expect a significant fraction of its newly acquired customers to turn off the service and keep the hardware to use as a digital VCR. .


You can't do that with a S2 or S3.


----------



## dswallow

myf16 said:


> Tivo's new pricing seems to be inspired by the cellular phone model: heavily subsidized hardware and long-term contracts, with every effort made to lock in the customer for the longest possible period.
> 
> I believe that this model is mismatched to Tivo. Why? A cellular telephone is only usable if you have cellular service. Without service, about all you can do is call 911. In contrast, a Tivo box is quite functional and valuable as a digital VCR even without Tivo service.
> 
> Tivo can expect a significant fraction of its newly acquired customers to turn off the service and keep the hardware to use as a digital VCR. In fact, if the monthly rate exceeds $10 (multi-system) I'll be one of those customers.


I thought it's only a subset of the very original series 1 units that could do anything useful without the TiVo service subscription (except for TiVo Basic DVD units).


----------



## maki

Wish my 3 year DT was $12.95/month.


----------



## myf16

dswallow said:


> I thought it's only a subset of the very original series 1 units that could do anything useful without the TiVo service subscription (except for TiVo Basic DVD units).


My mistake then. My other unit is one of those dinosaur S1's.


----------



## Pab Sungenis

Why is everyone so confused? It's very straightforward if you just stop and think.

Basic TiVo service for already purchased units is $12.95 or $13.95, depending on when you bought the unit. MSD is the current monthly rate discounted by $6.00. ($6.95 for pre-November purchases, $7.95 for post-November purchases.)

Those rates are for a minimum one-year commitment. Agreeing to a longer term discounts that rate further.

If you buy a TiVo unit (basic S2) bundled with the service, then the price goes up an extra $6.00, to $19.95 a month for your one year commitment. This is to pay for the box itself. At the end of the year, the TiVo is yours free and clear, and if you continue the service, it's $13.95 a month, or $7.95 a month if you use MSD.

If you want a S2DT, you're charged an upfront cost (depending upon the number of hours), plus the $19.95 a month. At the end of the year, the box is yours and the service goes to $13.95 a month.

If you want an S3, you're charged $799.99 up front, and $13.95 a month for service, or $7.95 with MSD.

Everyone here is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the price of service went up, but if you're NOT buying a TiVo as part of the bundle, it only went up by $1.00 a month.


----------



## Pab Sungenis

tbeckner said:


> NO! NO! NO!
> 
> The rate for an existing box is EXACTLY THE SAME, a one year contract is $19.95 per month.


Then something is wrong, because having just signed up an S3, I'm paying $13.95 a month.


----------



## rainwater

Pab Sungenis said:


> Then something is wrong, because having just signed up an S3, I'm paying $13.95 a month.


Thats the MSD rate for a one year contract.


----------



## rainwater

Pab Sungenis said:


> If you want an S3, you're charged $799.99 up front, and $13.95 a month for service, or $7.95 with MSD.


Where are you getting those numbers?


----------



## 1283

Pab Sungenis said:


> Why is everyone so confused?


You should look at the prices again. With 1-year commitment, it's either $19.95 (not MSD) or $13.95 (MSD).


----------



## rainwater

c3 said:


> You should look at the prices again. With 1-year commitment, it's either $19.95 (not MSD) or $13.95 (MSD).


See, everyone is confused 

Honestly, I think the new terms for new users is fairly straightforward for first time buyers. But, one of the confusing issues is the different levels of MSD. While TiVo may think they are making the overall terms "simpler", the MSD options make it more complicated. I think the biggest issue is how TiVo will handle existing users, though. The FAQ is not clear at all on this.


----------



## samo

Pab Sungenis said:


> Why is everyone so confused? It's very straightforward if you just stop and think.


Your own post is a very good illustration of "why is everyone so confused". You are completely misinterpreting the whole pricing scheme. And you are one who did a "stop and think". Imagine how confused is somebody who didn't?


----------



## ChuckyBox

rainwater said:


> If TiVo CS made a mistake, that is not my problem.


Seems like it is.


----------



## dswallow

rainwater said:


> See, everyone is confused
> 
> Honestly, I think the new terms for new users is fairly straightforward for first time buyers. But, one of the confusing issues is the different levels of MSD. While TiVo may think they are making the overall terms "simpler", the MSD options make it more complicated. I think the biggest issue is how TiVo will handle existing users, though. The FAQ is not clear at all on this.


The MSD discount is really rather simple. You get $6 off per month on units qualifying for the MSD. But that doesn't include the first unit, since that'd be the qualifying unit. So someone activating a pre-owned unit will have to pay $19.95/month with a one year contract; that's the same amount as getting a new unit. So where's the incentive to activate an existing unit; may as well toss perfectly working hardware in the garbage and get a new one. On the other hand a customer might simply object to being forced to pay $7/month more than they have to and decide TiVo doesn't need their business.

There's plenty of other complaints going on since this all does represent both a price increase and change in terms. But the root complaint is that activating pre-owned units has gone up about $7/month, both as the only unit and as an additional unit.

TiVo is obviously staying out of this discussion. Better not to feed it; they're simply not in a defensible position with this move; unless they simply say "too bad; it's our product and service; we set the price." And people don't usually care much for that attitude.


----------



## jeffk

Besides the confusion, my main gripe with this pricign plan is it seems to not take series 3 into consideration. In situations of the series 2 where you are effectivly getting the box for free [or greatly reduced] and paying a higher monthy, i don't agree, but see the argument. But with a series 3, nothign changed, but the prices went up for service, shouldn't the price fo a series 3 of been dropped to offset this, as Pony said he doesn't see much of a difference [because its all compared to series 2]. But series3 was ignored in this pricing decision.


----------



## samo

> TiVo is obviously staying out of this discussion. Better not to feed it; they're simply not in a defensible position with this move; unless they simply say "too bad; it's our product and service; we set the price." And people don't usually care much for that attitude.


Just occurred to me that it could be simple accounting/Wall Street decision. TiVo has a stock of unsold single tuner S2's that hey have to get rid off by March. If they don't, they would have to destroy them and deduct and show it in SEC filings as loss, disclosing number of unsold units in a process. Instead they try to encourage users who overwise would re-activate old units to get a new one for free. This way they can write off losses as customer acquisition cost.


----------



## tbeckner

samo said:


> Your own post is a very good illustration of "why is everyone so confused". You are completely misinterpreting the whole pricing scheme. And you are one who did a "stop and think". Imagine how confused is somebody who didn't?


It is SIMPLE.

I went to reactivate my SVR-2000, which was paid for many years ago by the initial cost and many years of TiVo service subscription.

On the website and on a call to TiVo directly to a CSR, both confirmed the subscription pricing, which is $19.95 per month on a one year contract and NO EXCEPTIONS.

So, in this case TiVo will no get my money and I will continue to use my SVR-2000 as a digital VCR and I will not purchase a DT.

A 54% increase in pricing is almost a larger jump than GASOLINE. And to think that I have been a TiVo supporter for almost seven years and helped sell a few dozen machines, NOT ANYMORE, IMHO this is highway robbery.

I am SAD, very SAD!


----------



## dswallow

tbeckner said:


> A 54% increase in pricing is almost a larger jump than GASOLINE.


It takes a huge amount of fossil fuel to keep those tubes operating that let TiVo provide service data; and to be fair, the price of fuel has gone up considerably.


----------



## bicker

RoyK said:


> Its called competition. Makes the world go 'round.


Companies *used* to compete on more than one variable. Now, due to the purchasing behaviors of the general public, it's all just about money. Anyone expecting anything else have only the general public to blame for their disappointment.



> Who gives a flip WHY they're raising the prices? Doesn't matter. Only time will show whether this is a good decision on TiVo's part or it isn't.


Absolutely, and that's always the case. The point here is that suggesting that it was a bad idea, solely because someone doesn't like it, is silly.


----------



## bicker

rainwater said:


> If TiVo CS made a mistake, that is not my problem.


If you didn't get it in writing, it is.


----------



## BobCamp1

bicker said:


> If you didn't get it in writing, it is.


You're never going to get it in writing. Every service comes with that "we can change anything at anytime" clause. So you don't want people to complain when they buy anything? That's realy helpful advice. 

Here's better advice: file a complaint with the BBB. Tivo's not a member, but currently has a satisfactory rating. People here don't sound satisfied to me.

Even more advice: I usually tape my conversations with CS so I have my own copy, and also ask for names and ID numbers, etc. If CS promised something it is a verbally binding agreement in most states. Or if someone from Tivo posts in an electronic forum (which is why TivoPony and TivoStephen have been silent lately). If you mention this, it's usually is enough to get them to make an exception for you.


----------



## larrs

tbeckner said:


> It is SIMPLE.
> 
> I went to reactivate my SVR-2000, which was paid for many years ago by the initial cost and many years of TiVo service subscription.
> 
> On the website and on a call to TiVo directly to a CSR, both confirmed the subscription pricing, which is $19.95 per month on a one year contract and NO EXCEPTIONS.
> 
> So, in this case TiVo will no get my money and I will continue to use my SVR-2000 as a digital VCR and I will not purchase a DT.
> 
> A 54% increase in pricing is almost a larger jump than GASOLINE. And to think that I have been a TiVo supporter for almost seven years and helped sell a few dozen machines, NOT ANYMORE, IMHO this is highway robbery.
> 
> I am SAD, very SAD!


I have gone through all of the phases of loss on this one, including denial, anger and now- acceptance. All in all, I decided to add another box and just accept the three year commitment. Now that tivo has an HD DVR, I figure I am going to stay a customer. The only reason i could think of leaving is if something else comes out that is that much better, or if I go to a Sat service that would be incomaptable with Tivo.

Bottom line is we'll see if this was a good move or not. With almost any change, it is good for some and not good for others. Those of us with multiple Tivos got the short end of the deal.


----------



## HDTiVo

Pab Sungenis said:


> Why is everyone so confused? It's very straightforward if you just stop and think.
> 
> Basic TiVo service for already purchased units is $12.95 or $13.95, depending on when you bought the unit. MSD is the current monthly rate discounted by $6.00. ($6.95 for pre-November purchases, $7.95 for post-November purchases.)
> 
> Those rates are for a minimum one-year commitment. Agreeing to a longer term discounts that rate further.
> 
> If you buy a TiVo unit (basic S2) bundled with the service, then the price goes up an extra $6.00, to $19.95 a month for your one year commitment. This is to pay for the box itself. At the end of the year, the TiVo is yours free and clear, and if you continue the service, it's $13.95 a month, or $7.95 a month if you use MSD.
> 
> If you want a S2DT, you're charged an upfront cost (depending upon the number of hours), plus the $19.95 a month. At the end of the year, the box is yours and the service goes to $13.95 a month.
> 
> If you want an S3, you're charged $799.99 up front, and $13.95 a month for service, or $7.95 with MSD.
> 
> Everyone here is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the price of service went up, but if you're NOT buying a TiVo as part of the bundle, it only went up by $1.00 a month.


You forgot to indicate sarcasm in the post...

This symbol can help:


----------



## MickeS

Maybe someone should delete Pab Sungenis post so that crackhead pricing info doesn't spread.


----------



## HDTiVo

jeffk said:


> Besides the confusion, my main gripe with this pricign plan is it seems to not take series 3 into consideration. In situations of the series 2 where you are effectivly getting the box for free [or greatly reduced] and paying a higher monthy, i don't agree, but see the argument. But with a series 3, nothign changed, but the prices went up for service, shouldn't the price fo a series 3 of been dropped to offset this, as Pony said he doesn't see much of a difference [because its all compared to series 2]. But series3 was ignored in this pricing decision.


How, convenient. 

The FAQ still largely only answers clearly the questions that were already answered clearly before the FAQ.

For nearly two weeks now, TiVo is doing business with a set of poorly defined terms. The terms on their Web Site are also not fully updated to reflect the changes...last I saw early this week.

TiVo is selling new hardware, renewing contracts, subing old hardware, etal. with much of this unsettled.


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Just occurred to me that it could be simple accounting/Wall Street decision. TiVo has a stock of unsold single tuner S2's that hey have to get rid off by March. If they don't, they would have to destroy them and deduct and show it in SEC filings as loss, disclosing number of unsold units in a process. Instead they try to encourage users who overwise would re-activate old units to get a new one for free. This way they can write off losses as customer acquisition cost.


You are getting a bit warmer.


----------



## HDTiVo

BobCamp1 said:


> Even more advice: I usually tape my conversations with CS so I have my own copy,


I can't believe you don't _TiVo _ your CS conversations. Get with it, man.


----------



## winpitt

BobCamp1 said:


> You're never going to get it in writing. Every service comes with that "we can change anything at anytime" clause. So you don't want people to complain when they buy anything? That's realy helpful advice.
> 
> Here's better advice: file a complaint with the BBB. Tivo's not a member, but currently has a satisfactory rating. People here don't sound satisfied to me.
> 
> Even more advice: I usually tape my conversations with CS so I have my own copy, and also ask for names and ID numbers, etc. If CS promised something it is a verbally binding agreement in most states. Or if someone from Tivo posts in an electronic forum (which is why TivoPony and TivoStephen have been silent lately). If you mention this, it's usually is enough to get them to make an exception for you.


If you are not informing them at the beginning of each conversation with each person you talk to (for example if you get transfered to another rep) you are in violation of federal law. Even if they state up front that the call could be recorded for quality purposes you must still inform them and get consent to record the conversation. For what it's worth.


----------



## bmgoodman

winpitt said:


> If you are not informing them at the beginning of each conversation with each person you talk to (for example if you get transfered to another rep) you are in violation of federal law. Even if they state up front that the call could be recorded for quality purposes you must still inform them and get consent to record the conversation. For what it's worth.


Are you a lawyer? I am not, but I believe you are wrong. My understanding is that 38 states permit taping a phone conversation by either of the two parties, WITHOUT the consent of the other party. See http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ or google it yourself. So tape away, so long as you don't live in California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania or Washington.


----------



## JohnBrowning

So, after 12 pages of whining, I don't recall mention of any businesses that never change their pricing...


----------



## Gai-jin

JohnBrowning said:


> So, after 12 pages of whining, I don't recall mention of any businesses that never change their pricing...


Did you have something to contribute to the thread? Oh, I didn't think so.


----------



## rainwater

JohnBrowning said:


> So, after 12 pages of whining, I don't recall mention of any businesses that never change their pricing...


Did you read any of the posts? A lot of questions about the change in pricing have not been answered yet.


----------



## HDTiVo

JohnBrowning said:


> So, after 12 pages of whining, I don't recall mention of any businesses that never change their pricing...


Yeah, amazingly no one has been that stupid. 

----------------------
The Five & Dime
The 99 Cent Store
The Dollar Store
Penny Candy
----------------------


----------



## timckelley

Jack in the Box: 2 tacos for 99 cents as long as I can remember, and I've been buying them over for over 20 years at that price.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Instead they try to encourage users who overwise would re-activate old units to get a new one for free. This way they can write off losses as customer acquisition cost.


Great thinking. Run up SAC and churn so you don't have to write down inventory. No analysts would notice that.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> Great thinking. Run up SAC and churn so you don't have to write down inventory. No analysts would notice that.


Although you attempted to be sarcastic, you actually came up with a good explanation. Nobody will notice higher SAC and churn in Q4 due to large volume of sales, but huge write down of inventory in Q1 may create a panic.


----------



## MickeS

timckelley said:


> Jack in the Box: 2 tacos for 99 cents as long as I can remember, and I've been buying them over for over 20 years at that price.


In other words, it used to be a complete ripoff!


----------



## bicker

BobCamp1 said:


> You're never going to get it in writing. *Every service comes with that "we can change anything at anytime" clause.* So you don't want people to complain when they buy anything? That's realy helpful advice.


It is, actually, and you've amplified what I've said with what you've said here. People should ensure that their expectations match what they've been promised, not what they desire. That's perhaps the best advice anyone could give, here on the forums, and unfortunately advice which is not given as much as it should be.



> Here's better advice: file a complaint with the BBB.


No, that's worse advice. It won't actually address the problem and it will just foster frustration in the customer. It probably will serve actually no constructive purpose whatsoever.



> Tivo's not a member, but currently has a satisfactory rating. People here don't sound satisfied to me.


People are always pissed off online. It's not a good indicator of how satisfactory anything is in reality.



> Even more advice: I usually tape my conversations with CS so I have my own copy, and also ask for names and ID numbers, etc.


Speak to a lawyer regarding the legality of this, if you plan to do it without warning the CSR beforehand.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> JohnBrowning said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, after 12 pages of whining, I don't recall mention of any businesses that never change their pricing...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you have something to contribute to the thread? Oh, I didn't think so.
Click to expand...

Gosh, what an incredibly self-centered remark!!! JohnBrowning was very adroitly pointing out how no one came up with a single example that would indicate that this price change was outrageously inappropriate, as you and others seemed to be indicating earlier in this thread. Look: Make your points, and let everyone else make theirs. If your points cannot stand up to the rebuttals by others, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> Gosh, what an incredibly self-centered remark!!! JohnBrowning was very adroitly pointing out how no one came up with a single example that would indicate that this price change was outrageously inappropriate, as you and others seemed to be indicating earlier in this thread. Look: Make your points, and let everyone else make theirs. If your points cannot stand up to the rebuttals by others, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.


And yet, he starts with an attack and ends with a one liner. Doesn't seem to be very constructive.

After all, in these 12 pages, there have been MANY good examples of companies that don't raise their prices 54% overnight. There have been MANY good examples of situations which this faq doesn't cover. I wonder if perhaps he hasn't read the 12 pages, and just felt like getting his trolling in for the day?


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Although you attempted to be sarcastic, you actually came up with a good explanation. Nobody will notice higher SAC and churn in Q4 due to large volume of sales, but huge write down of inventory in Q1 may create a panic.


Everyone will notice an increase in churn. It is one of the highlights of TiVo business, and a metric they've actively worked to keep under control.

Let it go. You are publicly accusing TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors. That's probably actionable.


----------



## classicX

winpitt said:


> If you are not informing them at the beginning of each conversation with each person you talk to (for example if you get transfered to another rep) you are in violation of federal law. Even if they state up front that the call could be recorded for quality purposes you must still inform them and get consent to record the conversation. For what it's worth.


Wrong. In my state I don't have to get consent - only one party (me) needs to know that the call is being recorded.

The "one party needs to know" part means that taping other peoples' conversations without them knowing is still illegal.


----------



## MickeS

Gai-jin said:


> And yet, he starts with an attack and ends with a one liner. Doesn't seem to be very constructive.
> 
> After all, in these 12 pages, there have been MANY good examples of companies that don't raise their prices 54% overnight. There have been MANY good examples of situations which this faq doesn't cover. I wonder if perhaps he hasn't read the 12 pages, and just felt like getting his trolling in for the day?


Let it go. You've been whining about this on and on and on and on and on and on and ON for days now. You're pretty much the only one that keeps harping about this. We get it.


----------



## HDTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> Everyone will notice an increase in churn. It is one of the highlights of TiVo business, and a metric they've actively worked to keep under control.
> 
> Let it go. You are publicly accusing TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors. That's probably actionable.


You are such a total Troll.

What are you doing intimidating someone for expressing themselves when they sniff around an area that threatens your vested insterests?

Oh, and "someone" obviously did notice "something" when the new plans were released. :down:


----------



## Gai-jin

MickeS said:


> Let it go. You've been whining about this on and on and on and on and on and on and ON for days now. You're pretty much the only one that keeps harping about this. We get it.


Hmm, odd. I've been fairly quiet these last few days, except to point out the trolls when they pop up.

Fact is, I've made clear why I object to the new pricing. I think nearly everyone here agrees with me. If you don't, so be it. But you don't have to come crying here and trying to belittle others because you disagree.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

well this thread is going well and just chock full of good info and questions about the new pricing


----------



## Gai-jin

Zeo-- I think the issue is that for all the great questions that have been asked here, TiVo has yet to answer. It took them nearly a week to post even this rudimentary faq, and since then, they've been utterly silent on the matter. 

There are lots of good questions and what-ifs in here. There's also my primary complaint, which I'd like to see comment on. (In Short -- There should be a reduced commitment/price structure for users who own 'paid-for' tivo hardware and wish to subscribe or resubscribe it.)

It just seems to me that, with 12 pages in this thread and something like 8 pages in the old thread, it wouldn't hurt to get a couple more 'clarifying' posts from someone at TiVo. I would consider that part of customer service. Unfortunately, that aspect of the business seems to have gone downhill over the years.


----------



## timckelley

Yes, the FAQ definitely needs a 2.0 posted. Then again, as dswallow points out, their position may not be very defensible, and so they might be afraid to post a 2.0 FAQ. But we still need one, though, defensible or not.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

ChuckyBox said:


> You are publicly accusing TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors. That's probably actionable.


That's nonsense.

This forum is more of a "bull session" than anything else. It is random, mostly anonymous, people's personal opinion.

It is my *personal opinion* that the people at TiVo responsible for the latest pricing fiasco are *moronic pinheads.*

Is that actionable?

Edit: Just to follow up on my comments, here is something from Wikipedia. I know that Wikipedia is not in any way authoritative, and I know that random problems debated here are probably too trivial to be in the "public interest", but I think the essence of the libel laws is that people should feel free to discuss issues of importance to them without worrying about yahoos throwing around words like "actionable" when they disagree with what is being said.

_In the various states, whether by case law or actual legislation, there are generally several "privileges" that can get a defamation case dismissed without proceeding to trial. These include the allegedly defamatory statement being one of opinion rather than fact; or being "fair comment and criticism", as it is important to society that everyone be able to comment on matters of public interest._


----------



## SnakeEyes

Well this took an interesting turn.


----------



## ChuckyBox

HDTiVo said:


> You are such a total Troll.


You and Gai-jin need to learn the definition of "troll." Then you need to look in the mirror.



> What are you doing intimidating someone for expressing themselves when they sniff around an area that threatens your vested insterests?


I'm not protecting my "vested insterests [sic]" (as usual, you think you know more than you do), I'm pointing out that there is a difference between expressing opinions and accusing someone of wrongdoing. While there is precedent for companies going after individuals on message boards, I assume TiVo's management have thicker skins than to worry about what is a minor, isolated incident. But that doesn't make it any less inappropriate or distasteful.

I frankly don't understand why you people who hate TiVo so much spend your time on a TiVo board trying to run down the company and the products. (NB: there is a definition of "troll" in that statement.) It makes one wonder if you have some "vested interest" in doing so.



> Oh, and "someone" obviously did notice "something" when the new plans were released.


I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## dswallow

ChuckyBox said:


> I frankly don't understand why you people who hate TiVo so much spend your time on a TiVo board trying to run down the company and the products. (NB: there is a definition of "troll" in that statement.) It makes one wonder if you have some "vested interest" in doing so.


It's usually those who have a passionate love for a product who will criticize moves like this one the most and the loudest; and that's because they believe so much in the product and believe that the decision the company made will hurt that product.

If these pricing moves were announced by Echostar, I wouldn't care much at all; in fact I might even jump for joy since I'd believe they'd cause people to switch from Dish Network to DirecTV. 

I'm sure TiVo's competition and would-be-competition are happy about this latest pricing change, though.


----------



## samo

> I'm pointing out that there is a difference between expressing opinions and accusing someone of wrongdoing.


Wow... Chucky, you are the one who imply that TiVo is doing something wrong. My post actually points out to a possibility that TiVo managers are not a bunch of idiots, but just are doing what is best for shareholders. It is their fiduciary duty to do what is in their power (without breaking any laws) to prevent sharp moves in stock prices. It is a business 101 - do not scare investors if you don't have to. New pricing structure encourages owners of the old un-subbed units to replace them with free new units. How does it increase churn? SAC will not increase substantially because of the profits on S3 in Q4. If TiVo came up with new price structure for the reasons I mentioned in my original post that would be a slick, smart and completely legal move. Every single company that needs to get rid of obsolete inventory is doing similar things. TiVo has been running on hype since the day 1. Nothing wrong with that. It is no different than any other dot.com or biotech. It is acceptable practice. If I wanted to accuse "TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors" I would use something like 2 million broadband enabled units out of 1.5 million sold (Just an example, I could come up with something better if my intent was to badmouth TiVo).


----------



## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> You are publicly accusing TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors. That's probably actionable.


To be fair, it's only actionable if the poster has specific credibility.


----------



## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> This forum is more of a "bull session" than anything else.


More bull than session. It's really just blustering, posturing and other silliness. I think reasonable and rational discussion ended around Page 5. People get very upset when things don't go their way, and that degrades any discussions about those things -- it becomes more about the emotion behind (in this case) having to pay more (whether real or imagined) rather than anything constructive or useful.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> More bull than session. It's really just blustering, posturing and other silliness. I think reasonable and rational discussion ended around Page 5. People get very upset when things don't go their way, and that degrades any discussions about those things -- it becomes more about the emotion behind (in this case) having to pay more (whether real or imagined) rather than anything constructive or useful.


And that's where, rather than constructive discussion, you've got people in here accusing others of whining etc.

Personally, I'd rather have answers to the questions that have been asked.


----------



## classicsat

samo said:


> Every single company that needs to get rid of obsolete inventory is doing similar things.


The older Series 2 DVRs out there are technically just as modern, capability wise, as new boxes, unless there is some hidden feature that only TiVo knows about that would warrant a conversion of the older boxes to new ones.

Also, in mind though, is that currently subbed boxes rates won't change, so if Tivo really wanted to eliminate older Series 2 boxes in favor of newer Series 2 boxes, they would offer some sort of program, or disincentive to keep them in service.

In short, I don't think they mind older Series 2s out there, should have some sort of stick out there to keep or put the older unsubbed Series 2s in service.


----------



## samo

classicsat said:


> The older Series 2 DVRs out there are technically just as modern, capability wise, as new boxes, unless there is some hidden feature that only TiVo knows about that would warrant a conversion of the older boxes to new ones.


Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.


----------



## dswallow

samo said:


> Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.


You know what DT stands for, right? Dual Tuner. 

Though it can't tune UHF channels; the tuner is meant for cable analog channels, though VHF 2-13 use the same frequencies over the air.


----------



## samo

dswallow said:


> You know what DT stands for, right? Dual Tuner.
> 
> Though it can't tune UHF channels; the tuner is meant for cable analog channels, though VHF 2-13 use the same frequencies over the air.


Sure. I wasn't clear. DT does not have OTA tuner, it is cable tuner only so it is exempt from digital tuner requirement.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> Personally, I'd rather have answers to the questions that have been asked.


That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered. Ask Coke or KFC for its secret formula, and you'll get silence, as you should. Asking these questions in this public forum is nothing more than a means to express frustration -- no reasonable person would believe that someone would share proprietary information like that that governs pricing in a public discussion thread. You'd be lucky if you'd even get hints about that sort of thing in a face-to-face discussion.


----------



## rainwater

bicker said:


> That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered.


As a customer I think I have the right to know how much my service will cost. As of I now, it is not clear how much that will be. The FAQ doesn't address existing customers (especially users on bundled deals).


----------



## classicsat

samo said:


> Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.


Then they should offer some clearance deal for just them.

The pricing scheme is not about eliminatng those "obsolete" boxes.


----------



## bicker

rainwater said:


> As a customer I think I have the right to know how much my service will cost.


If you pay for the service today, yes, you do have a right to know how much you must pay for it. You don't have a right to demand to know, definitely, what it will cost if you decide to pay for service tomorrow, or next month, or next year.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Wow... Chucky, you are the one who imply that TiVo is doing something wrong.


I made no such implication. The thing you suggested that TiVo management was doing would be illegal for them to do. It would cost the company money in order to conceal a management mistake.



> New pricing structure encourages owners of the old un-subbed units to replace them with free new units.


How many people with used, unsubbed boxes do you think reactivate those boxes in any given quarter? Given the minimum 1-year service commitment that's been in place for a year now, that number might be a couple of thousand, but I doubt that it would be that high.

Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that there is an excess inventory of S2ST boxes, but there is not a shread of evidence that such a excess exists now, or will exist in March.



> If I wanted to accuse "TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors" I would use something like 2 million broadband enabled units out of 1.5 million sold (Just an example, I could come up with something better if my intent was to badmouth TiVo).


Two million is a reasonable number for units sold. That only 1.5 million are currently subscribed is a consequence of churn, something that new broadband features could help stem.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory.


No destruction of inventory would be necessary. If there are a small number of boxes, they could be held and used for warranty replacements. If the number was larger, TiVo could easily deactivate NTSC OTA capabilities in software and market the box as cable- and satellite-only.


----------



## HDTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> You and Gai-jin need to learn the definition of "troll." Then you need to look in the mirror.
> 
> I'm not protecting my "vested insterests [sic]" (as usual, you think you know more than you do), I'm pointing out that there is a difference between expressing opinions and accusing someone of wrongdoing. While there is precedent for companies going after individuals on message boards, I assume TiVo's management have thicker skins than to worry about what is a minor, isolated incident. But that doesn't make it any less inappropriate or distasteful.
> 
> I frankly don't understand why you people who hate TiVo so much spend your time on a TiVo board trying to run down the company and the products. (NB: there is a definition of "troll" in that statement.) It makes one wonder if you have some "vested interest" in doing so.
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about.


A beautiful example of you being a Troll.


----------



## ChuckyBox

HDTiVo said:


> A beautiful example of you being a Troll.


And still you haven't learned the definition of "troll." A beautiful example of you thinking you know more than you do.


----------



## samo

> How many people with used, unsubbed boxes do you think reactivate those boxes in any given quarter? Given the minimum 1-year service commitment that's been in place for a year now, that number might be a couple of thousand, but I doubt that it would be that high.


You are right on this one. This argument by itself shots my theory down altogether. No need to argue on rest of the speculations.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered. Ask Coke or KFC for its secret formula, and you'll get silence, as you should. Asking these questions in this public forum is nothing more than a means to express frustration -- no reasonable person would believe that someone would share proprietary information like that that governs pricing in a public discussion thread. You'd be lucky if you'd even get hints about that sort of thing in a face-to-face discussion.


Wow, way to throw negativity into the thread while not remotely discussing the topic.

I don't think anyone here is asking for a secret formula. Instead, we want to know, *how does this affect us? What happens in situation A? B? Z?

So far, that hasn't been answered. Instead we have people like yourselves riding in on your high horse and yet contributing nothing to the thread.*


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> I don't think anyone here is asking for a secret formula. Instead, we want to know, *how does this affect us? What happens in situation A? B? Z?
> *


* 
It is entirely reasonable to want more information, and to request it. And many people have done just that. Demanding it and attacking the people who provide it (which we've also seen) is neither reasonable nor productive.

Your sig belies your protestations of simply wanting information: 



Not buying/referring again because of ridiculous new pricing.

Click to expand...

That indicates you're in no way open to whatever additional information TiVo chooses to supply. And that probably explains a lot of the reaction you are getting.

If you really want more information, why don't you do something useful like compiling a list of questions people have about specific situations and present it in a way that someone from TiVo can answer it all in one place. They may not respond, but then at least you'll have something new to be pissed about.*


----------



## Gai-jin

My sig indicates how I feel about the information that has currently been provided. Additional information could lessen my dissatisfaction, though short of a CHANGE in the policy for existing hardware, that's not very likely.

As far as I can tell, this thread already has all the questions people are asking, in one nice handy thread. It also has people going into attack mode at the people asking questions, which I don't understand. It would seem to me that some people here, who are so quick to defend tivo by attacking others, have real issues. Debating the issue is one thing. Attacking others because you stand on an indefensible position is a whole separate issue.


----------



## bicker

Seems to me that you're the one who seem to be unable to maintain a mature demeanor. Chucky and I are participating based on our experiences. I'm surely not "quick to defend TiVo" -- take a look at the 7.3/7.3.1 threads and the S3 Missing Channels threads and you'll see I give TiVo criticism when it is warrented.

If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't read their messages.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> Seems to me that you're the one who seem to be unable to maintain a mature demeanor. Chucky and I are participating based on our experiences. I'm surely not "quick to defend TiVo" -- take a look at the 7.3/7.3.1 threads and the S3 Missing Channels threads and you'll see I give TiVo criticism when it is warrented.
> 
> If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't read their messages.


I've got no problem with good natured debate. It's when you start the attacks and name calling I lose respect for anything else you post.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> As far as I can tell, this thread already has all the questions people are asking, in one nice handy thread.


And no one from TiVo is under any obligation to sift through all this crap to get to the legitimate questions. Their participation here is voluntary, a favor to us, and at the expense of other work they could be doing. They're busy people, going into their busiest season, and they don't likely have a lot of excess time to wade through every thread on this forum to find a few legitimate questions, especially since every time they do some dimwit attacks them or demands more.

If someone took the time to post a FAUQ (Frequently Asked Unanswered Questions), maybe, just maybe, they might get some answers.



> Attacking others because you stand on an indefensible position is a whole separate issue.


You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?


I don't believe I've done anything of the sort. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I generally reference trolls when someone contributes little or nothing to a thread, except to insult or attack another poster.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?


Actually I think that it was HDTiVo who called you troll, I don't think Gai ever did. As for multiple posts rehashing the same questions - it happens here all the time and it is not trolling. I guess the main beef of just about everybody in this thread is a fact that there is no discount on re-sub of existing units. Since you successfully shot down my theory on why TiVo is doing that, there is no reasonable explanation to this paradox. "Take it or leave it" is not an answer that people are expecting.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> I guess the main beef of just about everybody in this thread is a fact that there is no discount on re-sub of existing units. Since you successfully shot down my theory on why TiVo is doing that, there is no reasonable explanation to this paradox. "Take it or leave it" is not an answer that people are expecting.


My position here has been the same -- I think re-subbed units should get the 3-year rate on both single and MSD boxes. I can't see why this would be a problem, but I don't have the data the folks at TiVo have. They may clarify this issue, or they may stick with "take it or leave it." At this point, like I said, I think they are largely focused on the holiday sales, so we may have to wait for an answer.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

That is my one sticking pointg on this change as well. I did a bundle deal with the expectation that at the end of the bundle I would committ to one more year to start paying the 6.95 MSd rate. Now the FAQ is stating I will have to committ to 3 years. An implication in these threads is we may only need to do 1 year as originally thought.

the FAQ 2.0 could clarify such questions and go to Chucky's point of honoring some of the deals as they were when the hardware was bought by the owner. TiVo has the dates and knows when a TiVo is passed to a new account. It would be nice if TiVo only used this new pricing for hardware acquired by someone after the date of the new pricing.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

ChuckyBox said:


> They're busy people


Here's an exclusive inside look at just how busy the people at TiVo are:

http://theory.rockefeller.edu/

Sorry. I can't resist. Whenever anyone tells me just how hard the people at TiVo are working, I can't help but to think of *the Doorknob Principle.*


----------



## ChuckyBox

ZeoTiVo said:


> the FAQ 2.0 could clarify such questions and go to Chucky's point of honoring some of the deals as they were when the hardware was bought by the owner.


Maybe someone other than me can organize a flash mob in the lobby of TiVo HQ and demand a better pricing FAQ.


----------



## tbeckner

ChuckyBox said:


> My position here has been the same -- I think re-subbed units should get the 3-year rate on both single and MSD boxes. I can't see why this would be a problem, but I don't have the data the folks at TiVo have. They may clarify this issue, or they may stick with "take it or leave it." At this point, like I said, I think they are largely focused on the holiday sales, so we may have to wait for an answer.


Dear ChuckyBox,

Based upon the response that I received from the CSR at TiVo that I called late last week; at this time the re-subscription of an existing box (even six+ years old) is a "take it or leave it" and a "what you see is what you get" situation.

There appears to be no wiggle room, so in the case of my SVR-2000 it is a "leave it" situation. I have to assume that they can do without my $12.95 per month, for a box bought in May of 2000 and subscribed for more than three years continuously, first at $9.95 per month and then at $12.95 per month.

And I have a very funny feeling that this situation will NOT change at anytime in the future; in other words we are _*"YELLING INTO GALE FORCE WINDS"*_.


----------



## timckelley

tbeckner said:


> I have to assume that they can do without my $12.95 per month, for a box bought in May of 2000 and subscribed for more than three years continuously, first at $9.95 per month and then at $12.95 per month.


Ouch!


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Actually I think that it was HDTiVo who called you troll,


That's right it was me. Chucky's been trolling here on TiVo's behalf since he joined a year ago. I've gone back and forth several times considering him a troll and ignoring him, and engaging him in intelligent discussion.

I've settled on much of his opinions and commentary, and many of his retorts being just trolling.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> I generally reference trolls when someone contributes little or nothing to a thread, except to insult or attack another poster.


At least two of us feel you're the worst offender in that regard in this thread, regardless of your continued refusal to acknowledge the fact.



samo said:


> "Take it or leave it" is not an answer that people are expecting.


Which is perhaps part of the problem. A very basic tenet of mass-market commercialism is that the supplier offers and the buyer either accepts the offer or rejects the offer. The terms and conditions applicable are always the ones offered at the time money changes hands for the specific term of service the money is intended to cover. There aren't generally other options.


----------



## rainwater

bicker said:


> Which is perhaps part of the problem. A very basic tenet of mass-market commercialism is that the supplier offers and the buyer either accepts the offer or rejects the offer.


Except in the case of current bundle units, its not clear what the offer will be at the end of the contract. Asking for clarification on this issue is not out of line.


----------



## 1283

The problem is that some people, somehow, feel that TiVo owes them something.


----------



## bicker

rainwater said:


> Except in the case of current bundle units, its not clear what the offer will be at the end of the contract. Asking for clarification on this issue is not out of line.


Asking is definitely not out of line. However, a supplier can both decline to answer, and decline to commit to their answer, and in many cases will do just that.


----------



## timckelley

c3 said:


> The problem is that some people, somehow, feel that TiVo owes them something.


You could argue they owe us a FAQ 2.0, but maybe they really don't even owe us that.


----------



## rainwater

bicker said:


> Asking is definitely not out of line. However, a supplier can both decline to answer, and decline to commit to their answer, and in many cases will do just that.


Decline to tell me how much I will pay for their service?


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> At least two of us feel you're the worst offender in that regard in this thread, regardless of your continued refusal to acknowledge the fact.


Can you please reference posts where I have attacked others, and contributed nothing to the thread? I don't generally resort to personal attacks, so I'm curious which posts you believe were attacking you or someone else.


----------



## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> The problem is that some people, somehow, feel that TiVo owes them something.


Owes? I'm not sure that's the right word. Or maybe it is.

I believe that I am owed the option to subscribe hardware I own without paying for new hardware. Not quite the right word, but I could see how it might be made to fit.

I think including the box subsidy fee in a basic subscription, even if the person has already paid for the box, is just plain wrong. I think it's downright unethical.


----------



## bicker

rainwater said:


> Decline to tell me how much I will pay for their service?


Decline to commit to how much you would pay for their service at some later date -- absolutely. I cannot get Verizon to tell me how much it would cost to have telephone service in 2009, even though I already own my telephones. I cannot get my condominium association or my timeshare to tell me what the maintenance fee will be in 2009, even though in both cases I own the property.

If you were paying them for that service at the time you're asking, then surely they would tell you how much it would cost.



Gai-jin said:


> I believe that I am owed the option to subscribe hardware I own without paying for new hardware.


Please refer to the specific paragraph of the terms and conditions that promise you that.


----------



## Brighton Line

The first month I pay more then $12.95 is when I will cancel and get another 8300 for $9.95 from Cablevison. The $3 is well worth the features of TiVo but not $10 more and I'll get another tuner.
I tape a lot of Digital channels so the dual tuner tivo is not an option. The S3 is not an option as I don't have that type of cash and then the call would be HDTV (2nd one for Bedroom) or an S3 for the living room and I would think a 2nd HDTV before the mega cash for an S3.
So if they raise my current rate I'll be leaving and get a 2nd DVR from cablevision (and I'll tell em I want an HD one to get the bigger drive >G<.


----------



## timckelley

I too would probably not be willing to pay more than $12.95. I have lifetime on both, so I'm not worried, but really if I didn't, I don't actually think I'd quit TiVo over this. If I couldn't get MSD and didn't have lifetime, I'p probably do the 3 year prepay for $299, which works out to $8.31 per month, which is quite a bit less than $12.95.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> Please refer to the specific paragraph of the terms and conditions that promise you that.


I don't believe there is an inclusion in the terms and conditions for that. Hence why tivo has lost 2 subscriptions on my tivo's.

I'm not sure if you're arguing just because you enjoy arguing, or if you actually think it's reasonable to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright. If the latter, it seems you're about the only one who feels that way. If the former, you have my pity.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> I'm not sure if you're arguing just because you enjoy arguing, or if you actually think it's reasonable to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright. If the latter, it seems you're about the only one who feels that way. If the former, you have my pity.


One person's subsidy is another's better deal. Monthly users have been "subsidiziing" lifetime subs for years. Prepay gets a discount, longer terms gets a discount, MSD gets a discount. TiVo just may be taking the position that these are the new rates for the service, and if you want a box to go with it, you can have it. You may like it or not, but there is no right or wrong in what they are doing, it's just whatever policy they want to set. If you don't like it, move on to something else. You have options.


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> One person's subsidy is another's better deal. Monthly users have been "subsidiziing" lifetime subs for years. Prepay gets a discount, longer terms gets a discount, MSD gets a discount. TiVo just may be taking the position that these are the new rates for the service, and if you want a box to go with it, you can have it. You may like it or not, but there is no right or wrong in what they are doing, it's just whatever policy they want to set. If you don't like it, move on to something else. You have options.


Maybe I'm mistaken, Chucky, but didn't you say you agreed there should be another option for those who own their hardware outright? Existing boxes resubbing or such?

If not, I apologize, I guess there's 2 people so far that don't agree with that sentiment.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken, Chucky, but didn't you say you agreed there should be another option for those who own their hardware outright? Existing boxes resubbing or such?


I did indeed. I think there should be. But TiVo didn't ask my opinion, nor do I have access to their subscriber data or their strategic plans. It may be that they feel that offering the plan as it is will boost ARPU enough to offset any negatives. Until they say more, we have to assume that what we see is what we get.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> I don't believe there is an inclusion in the terms and conditions for that.


I.e., not promised, therefore not reasonable to expect.



> ... you actually think it's reasonable to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright.


For leisure items like this, it is reasonable to charge customers whatever the market is willing to pay.



> If the latter, it seems you're about the only one who feels that way. If the former, you have my pity.


In the end, *my *perspective prevails. It's a reflection of the reality of the situation. *You're* the one *complaining *about how things *are*.


----------



## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> You may like it or not, but there is no right or wrong in what they are doing, it's just whatever policy they want to set. If you don't like it, move on to something else.


This is the entirety of the situation, in a nutshell. There is a big difference between what would or wouldn't be better for ME or for YOU, versus what is the reality of the situation.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> I did indeed. I think there should be. But TiVo didn't ask my opinion, nor do I have access to their subscriber data or their strategic plans. It may be that they feel that offering the plan as it is will boost ARPU enough to offset any negatives. Until they say more, we have to assume that what we see is what we get.


Congratulation. You win an award for most concise, to the point and correct statement in the whole thread.


----------



## 1283

bicker said:


> For leisure items like this, it is reasonable to charge customers whatever the market is willing to pay.


Exactly. Supply and demand. If there isn't enough demand with the current pricing structure, TiVo will make more adjustments ..... or go out of business.


----------



## ashu

c3 said:


> Exactly. Supply and demand. If there isn't enough demand with the current pricing structure, TiVo will make more adjustments ..... or go out of business.


In Soviet Russia, the Cable Card pays you ....



Welcome to Capitalism! Long Live the S3


----------



## BrianEWilliams

I have two masters degrees, and this pricing structure confuses me. Good job, TiVo! Hope it works out for you, but it appears unlikely. Once Dell gets their act together and sells a PVR for $399 with no monthly fees, TiVo may be toast.


----------



## 1283

BrianEWilliams said:


> I have two masters degrees, and this pricing structure confuses me.


This sentence has two different meanings.


----------



## timckelley

BrianEWilliams said:


> Once Dell gets their act together and sells a PVR for $399 with no monthly fees, TiVo may be toast.


Is that really going to happen? It sounds intriguing if so. If their user interface is decent it does seem to price TiVo out of the marketplace. The 'no monthly fees' sounds very attractive, not just to me, but I bet to much of the world. I wonder if it'll be easy to add hard drives to it, like it is to TiVos.


----------



## 1283

No monthly fee is the same as lifetime service. Before TiVo discontinued lifetime, we could purchase a unit with lifetime for $399 or less. Financially, that didn't work for TiVo. Replay originally sold all units with lifetime. Look at where Replay is now.


----------



## timckelley

c3 said:


> No monthly fee is the same as lifetime service. Before TiVo discontinued lifetime, we could purchase a unit with lifetime for $399 or less. Financially, that didn't work for TiVo. Replay originally sold all units with lifetime. Look at where Replay is now.


Maybe it didn't financially work for TiVo, but I bet it financially works for us consumers.


----------



## bicker

c3 said:


> Exactly. Supply and demand. If there isn't enough demand with the current pricing structure, TiVo will make more adjustments


Precisely.


c3 said:


> ..... or go out of business.


 There is not necessarily a sufficient market, willing to pay a sufficient premium, to justify every service offering. However, there are other options, other than going out of business, specifically simply not extending that service offering any longer, or increasing the price to address the lack of demand, even though that will further erode demand. (One of the cell phone companies is doing this so they can legitimately claim that they're still offering a way for their customers to continue service, but they are clearly trying to punitively incentivize customers into choosing some other service option.)


----------



## bicker

timckelley said:


> Maybe it didn't financially work for TiVo, but I bet it financially works for us consumers.


Which doesn't really indicate whether it will work out for Dell. Indeed, we do know that two companies that use to sell HD DVRs for sale directly to the public without subscription no longer do so. It sure seems to me a clear indication that the DVR space, at least, isn't profitable enough to service, without a subscription fee, because customers aren't willing to pay the effective value of lifetime service (let's figure $400 as a nice round number) on top of the price for the box, up-front, to cover that.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

I just called Tivo, my sub is up in Feb. I was told it would go to $19.95 a month or I could renew for a year and get it for $16.95 or do 2 or 3 years and get it for the lower rate. I thought I was supposed to get the old rate of $12.95 since I had a previous subscription?


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Ok, now I'm really ticked off. I just found out about this pricing this morning. I was going to get a new Tivo , upgrade my previous box that's not even a year old to lifetime like they said I could do when I BOUGHT the box and pay the MD price for the second box. There's no more lifetime and the new pricing is ridiculous. I just got confirmation from another CS person at Tivo and I am indeed not eligible for the $12.95 monthly rate I've been getting and my rates will increase once my paid sub is up in Feb. So now, I'm so angry at this b.s. that there will be no second Tivo box and I'm debating on if I'm even keeping the original one. The cable company DVR is looking mighty tempting at this point. They should at least grandfather those of us in who had boxes before this price increase. And now I can't even email anyone about this? Who in the world takes their email addresses off of customer service?


----------



## timckelley

I thought there was indeed a grandfather clause. I thought TiVoPony said those of us who already were paying $12.95 at the time of the pricing changes will get grandfathered in at that rate.

Oh, but about buying a second box and getting it for $6.95? The grandfather clause doesn't apply there, and so you need a 3 year contract on that box to get $6.95.


----------



## usnret

OK, I'm old and have maybe become a bit foggy, but I'll be darned if I can figure out where I will stand come next March (and yes, I have read all the forums concerning pricing, and the Tivo web site).
Last March I purchased a DT under the MOPS program. I already had an SD-400 and a Series 2 Tivo. I had the 400 and SD2 networked, the 400 at $12.95 and the SD2 at $6.95. When I hooked up the DT, the 400 also went to $6.95 and the SD2 stayed at $6.95.
Now my problem is: where does the DT stand, monthly cost-wise, in April. Will I have to subscribe to a 1,2 or 3 year plan, or will it just continue at $12.95. All payments are made via my CC.
Any clarification from you folks would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

timckelley said:


> I thought there was indeed a grandfather clause. I thought TiVoPony said those of us who already were paying $12.95 at the time of the pricing changes will get grandfathered in at that rate.
> 
> Not so according to TWO CS reps I talked to, they kindly pointed out the "wording" in the FAQ and since I prepaid for a year, rather than going month to month I am screwed once my prepaid time runs out  . (Which is ludicrous by the way) Thanks a lot Tivo, Great customer service there. I'll be sure and recommend you to all my friends and family who were considering getting the service for Christmas.


----------



## bicker

My understanding is that in order to be "grandfathered" you need to have already been on a month-to-month subscription, not still fulfilling your extended service commitment.


----------



## Einselen

To be grandfathered in you could be month-to-month, under 1 yr contract baying monthly or 1 yr prepaid (such as the MOPS program)



TivoPony said:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


----------



## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> Not so according to TWO CS reps I talked to, they kindly pointed out the "wording" in the FAQ and since I prepaid for a year, rather than going month to month I am screwed once my prepaid time runs out.


Do not mess with the CSR. Ask for a supervisor. Tivo CSRs basically only have to be breathing to be able to work. The supervisors though sometimes not any better do at least usually have more of a clue on what is going on.

Oh and incase you didn't notice I posted the part from the FAQ in a reply just above which shows that prepaid should get the grandfather clause.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Einselen said:


> To be grandfathered in you could be month-to-month, under 1 yr contract baying monthly or 1 yr prepaid (such as the MOPS program)


I pointed that out to the two CS and I was basically told too bad so sad. It's either shell out $20 a month or do another prepay plan that costs more.


----------



## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> I pointed that out to the two CS and I was basically told too bad so sad. It's either shell out $20 a month or do another prepay plan that costs more.


I know you don't want to deal with Tivo and have to call back, but talk to a supervisor. If the supervisor denies you get their name, rep # (if they have one) and a case number. Then I would e-mail Pony (as he is the one who posted the FAQ) and ask him what the heck is going on. Like I said before to be a Tivo CSR you just have to have a pulse (ok I said breathing before, but having a pulse is better)


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Einselen said:


> I know you don't want to deal with Tivo and have to call back, but talk to a supervisor. If the supervisor denies you get their name, rep # (if they have one) and a case number. Then I would e-mail Pony (as he is the one who posted the FAQ) and ask him what the heck is going on. Like I said before to be a Tivo CSR you just have to have a pulse (ok I said breathing before, but having a pulse is better)


 Thanks, I'll try that later. You're right about the Tivo CS. I wasn't overly impressed with the quality service on the other end of the line. I did try to email Pony and he doesn't take emails so I PM'd him. I'm curious to see what he says.


----------



## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> Thanks, I'll try that later. You're right about the Tivo CS. I wasn't overly impressed with the quality service on the other end of the line. I did try to email Pony and he doesn't take emails so I PM'd him. I'm curious to see what he says.


Good luck and I hope for the best. As long as what Pony said is correct I don't see how they can deny you. The only way is if Tivo is inacting the rule that they coudl change the price at anytime, but I think it is way too early for Tivo to be playing that card.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Gai-jin said:


> I'm not sure if you're arguing just because you enjoy arguing, or if you actually think it's reasonable to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright.


I humbly suggest that when a user has chosen a name of 'bicker', that they might just be leaving some clues behind...


----------



## Gai-jin

Fraser+Dief said:


> I humbly suggest that when a user has chosen a name of 'bicker', that they might just be leaving some clues behind...


----------



## ChuckyBox

usnret said:


> OK, I'm old and have maybe become a bit foggy, but I'll be darned if I can figure out where I will stand come next March (and yes, I have read all the forums concerning pricing, and the Tivo web site).
> Last March I purchased a DT under the MOPS program. I already had an SD-400 and a Series 2 Tivo. I had the 400 and SD2 networked, the 400 at $12.95 and the SD2 at $6.95. When I hooked up the DT, the 400 also went to $6.95 and the SD2 stayed at $6.95.
> Now my problem is: where does the DT stand, monthly cost-wise, in April. Will I have to subscribe to a 1,2 or 3 year plan, or will it just continue at $12.95. All payments are made via my CC.
> Any clarification from you folks would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you.


Everything we have been told says that you will continue at the $12.95 rate and the other boxes will stay at $6.95.


----------



## samo

Fraser+Dief said:


> I humbly suggest that when a user has chosen a name of 'bicker', that they might just be leaving some clues behind...


That is not called for. It may not be reasonable or fair "to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright", but that is what TiVo decided to do. And they didn't invent this model either. For years old satellite users had to pay full price for hardware, while new users were getting it for free or near free. Old users indirectly subsidize new users for cell phones as well. Just as unfair as the passenger next seat paying half of what you paid for airline ticket. There are lot of things is this world that are unfair and that is what biker is trying to explain.


----------



## Gai-jin

samo said:


> That is not called for. It may not be reasonable or fair "to include a hardware subsidy fee on all subscriber's accounts, even those who own their hardware outright", but that is what TiVo decided to do. And they didn't invent this model either. For years old satellite users had to pay full price for hardware, while new users were getting it for free or near free. Old users indirectly subsidize new users for cell phones as well. Just as unfair as the passenger next seat paying half of what you paid for airline ticket. There are lot of things is this world that are unfair and that is what biker is trying to explain.


Not called for? He was just pointing out the user's name & how it appeared to be an accurate description...

I don't think anyone here denies that tivo can choose to do this if they want. I think the main issue is that it's treating the core customer base badly. The one sure way to make sure TiVo realizes this is a mistake is to be vocal about it and to cost them subscriptions. As I said above, I can personally vouch for 2 subscriptions that have been lost to tivo. There are others listed in this thread that tivo has lost as well.

I've a friend who I referred to tivo, who literally ordered her tivo the day before all this came down. She's having problems with it. She's getting poor customer service. Normally, I'd step up and help, defending tivo every step of the way. Now that tivo has decided my business isn't important to them anymore, I'm not so sure helping tivo is as important anymore. So who knows, they may lose another subscription, this one due to apathy on my part.

Gai-jin


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Gai-jin said:


> ...I've a friend who I referred to tivo, who literally ordered her tivo the day before all this came down. She's having problems with it. She's getting poor customer service. Normally, I'd step up and help, defending tivo every step of the way. Now that tivo has decided my business isn't important to them anymore, I'm not so sure helping tivo is as important anymore. So who knows, they may lose another subscription, this one due to apathy on my part.
> 
> Gai-jin


While I understand your commitment to changing the current price increases TiVo has rolled out, I question if it is worth standing by, doing nothing, when a friend has a problem that you could probably help fix.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> The one sure way to make sure TiVo realizes this is a mistake is to be vocal about it and to cost them subscriptions.


So that's really what you've been all about? Over zealous *mud-slinging* so your own personal dissatisfaction could potentially have more than the comparatively trivial negative impact on the company's bottom-line that it deserves to have?


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Ok, called and got a case#, but here's the deal. When I bought the Tivo in Feb, I prepaid for a year and it was billed as a gift subscription. They are now saying that "gift subs" do not qualify to be grandfathered in. I am so irritated at this game that Tivo is trying to play so they can charge current customers more money when the time is up. So..for those of you who check your accounts and it says "gift sub" as your method of payment for your prepaid time, expect to pay more when your prepaid time runs out.


----------



## timckelley

Tiggerdrh said:


> Ok, called and got a case#, but here's the deal. When I bought the Tivo in Feb, I prepaid for a year and it was billed as a gift subscription. They are now saying that "gift subs" do not qualify to be grandfathered in. I am so irritated at this game that Tivo is trying to play so they can charge current customers more money when the time is up. So..for those of you who check your accounts and it says "gift sub" as your method of payment for your prepaid time, expect to pay more when your prepaid time runs out.


Well, at the least you could sign up for a 3 year contract and get the $12.95. Or better yet, do another 3-year prepay and get a really low price.

But I can understand if you don't want to be committed for 3 years.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

I'm not sure I want to sign up for a 3 year contract with this company for an s2 box. I don't sign 3 year contracts with my cellphone company, my cable company or any other company I do business with in my life. It's actually a little insulting that in order to get the regular rate I'm now paying they want to get me into such a long contract. I don't know who the marketing genius is that came up with this whole plan, but kudos to them for making what should be a simple process such a freaking mess.


----------



## beady

I currently have a S2 DT at $12.95 month to month that I purchased back in July. I then added an S3 in October which is being billed at $6.95 a month. When the S2 is up I'll probably want to get rid of it. What will happen to my S3? Since it is no longer eligible for the MSD will it go to $12.95 month to month or will I have to go on some sort of commitment plan? Is there anyway I can switch the billing before canceling the S2 so that the S3 is the $12.95 unit and the S2 is the MSD unit?


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## timckelley

beady said:


> Is there anyway I can switch the billing before canceling the S2 so that the S3 is the $12.95 unit and the S2 is the MSD unit?


That's a neat idea. If you do that, then your S3 might wind up being grandfathered. Otherwise, I don't think it will. That sounds worth a shot.


----------



## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> I'm not sure I want to sign up for a 3 year contract with this company for an s2 box.


Just so you know the contract is with the acount and not the box. In two years of the 3 year contract you can upgrade to the S3 and switch service to it. However, if there is a rebate and it is worded like the current rebates are (where it reuqires new activation) then you will forfeit the rebate. On the other hand the S3 currently has no rebate and no one knows if and when it will have one and also what the terms will state.


----------



## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> Ok, called and got a case#, but here's the deal. When I bought the Tivo in Feb, I prepaid for a year and it was billed as a gift subscription. They are now saying that "gift subs" do not qualify to be grandfathered in. I am so irritated at this game that Tivo is trying to play so they can charge current customers more money when the time is up. So..for those of you who check your accounts and it says "gift sub" as your method of payment for your prepaid time, expect to pay more when your prepaid time runs out.


Did you ask for it to be a gift subscription? If you bought it for yourself I am not understanding why it would be a gift subscription.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Ya know, on my account page it says I'm a "monthly" customer, I wonder if they are opening themselves up for a class-action lawsuit from customers like me? If it says I'm signed up for monthly service and my account was created before the grandfather date, why does it matter how my subscription was paid? Why does the fact that it says gift-sub as method of payment disqualify me from getting the reduced rate in the future? Especially when they have my credit card on file and it was paid for by me from my credit card? They show a monthly statement for each month so why am I not considered a canidate for the grandfather clause?


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Einselen said:


> Did you ask for it to be a gift subscription? If you bought it for yourself I am not understanding why it would be a gift subscription.


When I signed up I did everything online. I think the way it worked was I got the instant rebate online if I purchased the subscription with the tivo. I'm not sure why it was billed as a gift sub unless that's just the way the special was going at the time.


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## Einselen

Tiggerdrh said:


> When I signed up I did everything online. I think the way it worked was I got the instant rebate online if I purchased the subscription with the tivo. I'm not sure why it was billed as a gift sub unless that's just the way the special was going at the time.


Did you buy from the regular Tivo.com purchase site or was it a special promotion such as the Retail Accomidation, MOPS, Baseball promos? Depending on how it was purchased it could also have an impact on others.


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## Tiggerdrh

I purchased it straight from Tivo.com


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> So that's really what you've been all about? Over zealous *mud-slinging* so your own personal dissatisfaction could potentially have more than the comparatively trivial negative impact on the company's bottom-line that it deserves to have?


Theerrrrrr's Bicker!

Sorry bicker, no mud slinging here. Tivo screwed up on this one, and I'm just trying to help them see it. As are many of the other posters in this thread. Thus far, it seems you're the only one who doesn't see that the new plan sucks, and that it's treating existing TiVo owners poorly. It's been explained repeatedly, I can't help it if you just don't want to see the problem.


----------



## bicker

I see the problem, but what I see is that the problem is your unfounded expectations that consumers should have control over a supplier. In the mass market, the supplier offers, and the consumer chooses between accept and reject -- the consumer doesn't get to dictate terms that the supplier should be offering.


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## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> Thus far, it seems you're the only one who doesn't see that the new plan sucks, and that it's treating existing TiVo owners poorly.


No, bicker is not the only one. I don't really have problem with the new pricing structure, other than that an unsubsidized unit should have lower monthly rate or shorter contract.


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## Gai-jin

c3 said:


> No, bicker is not the only one. I don't really have problem with the new pricing structure, other than that an unsubsidized unit should have lower monthly rate or shorter contract.


I don't have a problem... other than...

That would indicate a problem.

That is the same problem I have. I don't like the new pricing any which way, but ripping off customers who have already 'paid their dues' so to speak is what I find truly outrageous.


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## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> I see the problem, but what I see is that the problem is your unfounded expectations that consumers should have control over a supplier. In the mass market, the supplier offers, and the consumer chooses between accept and reject -- the consumer doesn't get to dictate terms that the supplier should be offering.


Sure they do. They don't buy when a supplier screws up. The supplier changes, or ends up going bankrupt.

Ideally, there will be enough continued backlash and lost subs as a result of this error that tivo will change.


----------



## 1283

Gai-jin said:


> I don't have a problem... other than...
> 
> That would indicate a problem.


Yes, but not nearly the same as you.

Actually, there was no pricing break before the latest change, either. I could get a 540 box for free after rebate, or sign up with a used box. Same $12.95/$6.95 rate with 1-year contract. It's just now that those rates are available only with 3-year contract.


----------



## bicker

c3 said:


> No, bicker is not the only one. I don't really have problem with the new pricing structure, other than that an unsubsidized unit should have lower monthly rate or shorter contract.


And I haven't said whether I have a problem with the new pricing structure or not. Rather, I've made it clear that whether any one person likes the pricing structure or not has no bearing on whether it is "right" or "fair" or "legit" or "a good idea" etc.


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## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> Sure they do. They don't buy when a supplier screws up. The supplier changes, or ends up going bankrupt.


And that's the appropriate mechanism: If you don't like what's offered, don't buy it. That's your vote.


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## ChuckyBox

Tiggerdrh said:


> Ya know, on my account page it says I'm a "monthly" customer, I wonder if they are opening themselves up for a class-action lawsuit from customers like me?


No, they're not. TiVo can charge whatever they want for their service. If you don't like it, too bad. The company doesn't owe you anything and you are free to take your business elsewhere.


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## Tiggerdrh

Well, I suppose you're right the company doesn't owe me anything, but hey guess what, they've already lost 3 subscriptions from friends of mine who were considering purchasing their systems. Once I explained the new pricing and the semantics they played with my account they were done and wanted no parts of this company. Plus, I've got a whole lot more people to talk to between now and Christmas who were asking me about TiVo. So who's the winner and who's the loser when you treat current customers unfairly?


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## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> Tivo screwed up on this one, and I'm just trying to help them see it.


Sorry if I make any mistakes typing, it's hard to see my monitor through my tears of contrition. How could I have been so wrong about Gai-jin? Here I'd been thinking that he was just having an infantile tantrum about being charged a couple of bucks more per month. But now I find I was totally mistaken -- he's been here selflessly giving his time and energy to this one-man crusade in TiVo's best interest, with nary a thought for himself. I feel so ashamed.

Sniff.


----------



## kido

Tiggerdrh said:


> So who's the winner and who's the loser when you treat current customers unfairly?


it would seem you are the loser.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Tiggerdrh said:


> So who's the winner and who's the loser when you treat current customers unfairly?


I think we'd carry this thread too far astray if we were to engage in even a short discussion of companies that have been quite successful despite (or maybe because of) constantly screwing their customers. But the short answer to your question is that the company usually wins and the customers usually lose.

But what I don't understand about you is why you are borrowing all of this trouble? You've said that you are on a monthly plan, and that commitment runs through February. And yet you're calling CS now, waiting on hold multiple times, posting to the forum and emailing Pony, all in an effort to get TiVo to commit to a level of pricing that you will probably get just by doing nothing. This pricing plan is a couple of weeks old, there are unresolved issues with it, and the CS drones have no knowledge of nor power over what pricing policy will be in effect three months from now, and they literally can't change your plan until your current commitment is up.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to discuss this for purely academic reasons, I'm here for you. But if you are really putting this much energy into what at worst will be a few bucks a month (assuming it ever comes to pass), I just don't understand it. Why don't you wait for something to actually happen, and then get worked up about it?


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> And that's the appropriate mechanism: If you don't like what's offered, don't buy it. That's your vote.


That, and continued vocal opposition to the new plans.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Chucky,

The reason I got worked up in first place was that I was considering getting a second box. I called to see about my plan and when it expired and that's when I was informed by CS drones about the new plan. I was also told I'd be paying $20 a month for my current box under this new plan. I called again to get furthur confirmation and got the same story. So, I came to the forum, read the the FAQ and I posted to the forum because what they told me didn't jive with what Pony posted. Someone suggested I call again to get a case#, I did so and was given the same story with the explanation of why I didn't qualify for the reduced rate. I was also told that it's on my file that if I have any questions to please review the FAQ on the website. What kind of response is that? I was and still am extremely confused about their reasoning. I'm really just trying to get clarification. You're right they can't do anything anyway until my contract expires. 

As for as the lost subs, I was at a dinner party last night and the subject of TiVo came up because someone was really interested in getting a DVR. When I explained what was going on with CS and what I had been told, my friends were kind of shocked. So, yes the new rate doesn't apply to me now, and I don't normally borrow trouble, but it "would" apply to my friends who were considering purchasing this thing and at this point I can't recommend the service. I also don't understand why TiVo would do this right around the holiday season. It makes no sense to me. So I guess maybe you and anyone else can consider "me" a loser but hey that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions. And you're right, I've spent too much energy on this when it doesn't matter right now but this whole process doesn't sit right with me.


----------



## 1283

Tiggerdrh, even before the latest price changes, you would *NOT* get $12.95/month without changing service plan. If you don't do anything at the end of the year, your monthly rate will be the 1-year package rate.


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## Tiggerdrh

C3,

That's why I called in the first place. I wanted to know when my current plan expired and what it would be if I renewed. I had always planned on buying another year, and I was really planning on upgrading to lifetime. LOL. I didn't realize how behind I was on that one. I also originally wanted another box and didn't get that far when the new pricing was explained. She told me I was on month to month and that the new month to month was $20, that's when I freaked and started to research the new policy.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Tiggerdrh said:


> So, yes the new rate doesn't apply to me now, and I don't normally borrow trouble, but it "would" apply to my friends who were considering purchasing this thing and at this point I can't recommend the service.


I don't see how your situation affects your friends. You have multiple TiVos, some under MSD, another under a package of unclear terms. Your friends' situation is that they don't have TiVo and if they want it, the terms are very clear. If you can't recommend those terms, fine, but it sounds like you are not recommending them because of some confusion about what you might be paying three months from now under various scenarios, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.



> I also don't understand why TiVo would do this right around the holiday season. It makes no sense to me.


They are doing it to sell their product. The company found that the old terms were an actual impediment to getting people to try TiVo. So they spent the last year putting together a pricing plan that is more like the cell phone model where the hardware is free (or upgraded hardware can be had for a one-time upfront fee), and the customer commits to a service plan for some period of time. (These plans worked for the cell phone companies -- their growth exploded when they were able to start giving phones away.)

These pricing plans aren't in place to piss off current customers, they are there in an attempt to stimulate sales for a company that has endured years of underwhelming growth. As Pony has said, the intent is to leave current customers' hardware unaffected by the new pricing.


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## RoyK

ChuckyBox said:


> These pricing plans aren't in place to piss off current customers, they are there in an attempt to stimulate sales for a company that has endured years of underwhelming growth.


Maybe so but it seems that they are doing the first and, if the reactions of several of my friends and neighbors is any indication don't stand much of a chance of doing the second.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

Tivo's aren't cellphones. I feel that most people feel they need cellphones, they don't need DVR's. Maybe I'm the only person in this forum who thinks that $17 a month with a one year contract for something that I "own" that is a "supplement" to cable is a bit high. I am a current customer and if the intent is to leave my hardware at the current prices, then something is very wrong with the delivery of the message, because that's not what "I" was told in my particular case.

The point I was trying to make is that yes, the new terms are very clear and once I explained the new terms, my friends thought that was too much money to spend when they can get a DVR through our cable company for much less. That plus my experience with CS was the icing on the cake.

Anyway, we can debate this until the end of time, it doesn't really matter does it? Only time will tell if TiVo's new pricing plan will work for them.


----------



## 1283

Tiggerdrh said:


> The point I was trying to make is that yes, the new terms are very clear and once I explained the new terms, my friends thought that was too much money to spend when they can get a DVR through our cable company for much less.


TiVo does not have the luxury of charging you a lot of money for the content. In my area, I cannot get a Comcast DVR without paying them $70/month, instead of the $16.50 which I'm paying now. In my situation, even spending $700 for the S3 hardware makes a lot of sense.


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## ChuckyBox

RoyK said:


> Maybe so but it seems that they are doing the first and, if the reactions of several of my friends and neighbors is any indication don't stand much of a chance of doing the second.


And those samples amount to what? A few people on this forum complained about it for a few days in what can only be described as a collective yawn by the standards of this crowd. And your friends and neighbors? Let me guess, they were all considering TiVo but when this new pricing that makes it cheaper for them to get a TiVo was announced, they all changed their minds. Right?

Damn that $220 rebate, it's driving customers away in droves.


----------



## ChuckyBox

Tiggerdrh said:


> Anyway, we can debate this until the end of time, it doesn't really matter does it? Only time will tell if TiVo's new pricing plan will work for them.


And yet you keep posting arguments as to why it won't work.


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## dswallow

The new pricing scheme may be great for people with no up-front money. But it's just the opposite for people looking to give a gift. All it does is exacerbate the problem of giving a gift that the recipient has to pay to use. That it's now more complicated, more expensive, and requires making a commitment is just one more reason to give someone pause who's considering giving the gift of TiVo.

There's no easy answer. But over the years TiVo's not really making a lot of progress with the ideas they've chosen to implement, have they?


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## samo

dswallow said:


> The new pricing scheme may be great for people with no up-front money. But it's just the opposite for people looking to give a gift. All it does is exacerbate the problem of giving a gift that the recipient has to pay to use. That it's now more complicated, more expensive, and requires making a commitment is just one more reason to give someone pause who's considering giving the gift of TiVo.
> 
> There's no easy answer. But over the years TiVo's not really making a lot of progress with the ideas they've chosen to implement, have they?


Lets try to recollect.
1. Series 1. Started at $500 + $9.95 /month. Shortly after to compete with Replay $200 lifetime is introduced. Not much in sales department.
2. $100+ mil for name recognition advertisement blitz. TiVo becames a verb but no sales to speak off. Price dropped to about $300, still not much of the sales.
3. Series 2 introduced. Magic mark of $200 is achieved (everybody is convinced that this is a price that people will pay). Still not good enough.
4. Limited trial with Cox. $19.95 a /month - no upfront fees. Never went anywhere.
5. At&T cable deal. $200 upfront + monthly. No dice.
6. Somewhere along a line price of the sub is bumped to $12.95 and lifetime is bumped to $250 then $300. No profits yet.
7. Brilliant idea to reduce churn - 1 year contract. Sales dropped even with near free hardware. Who cares, TiVo sill losing money.
8. Latest and greatest - free TiVo with $19.95/month (wasn't it tried before? I guess it wasn't conclusive trial). It has to work now, because what else can be done? Lifetime units for $600-700? Sorry, doesn't work either.
Guess what? Even a new price structure is not profitable. Bundled price makes it just about break-even. TiVo actually loses money if they sell you TiVo for $199 with 1 year bundle and you do not re-sub. It is a catch 22 situation. They can't charge you more and they can't charge you less. TiVo tried really hard to become software only company - didn't work. They are back in a hardware business with S3 that is profitable (nice change, back to 1999 when series 1 was profitable but didn't sell). 
Doug is right there are no easy answers. If my memory failed me and I made some mistakes in chronology feel free to correct me (I'm not about to make research paper out of it, so everything I wrote is based on my recollection of events). Bottom line still doesn't change - everything TiVo tried so far didn't work.
Lets hope that the latest change is little more than another attempt to hype up quarterly report.


----------



## tbeckner

ChuckyBox said:


> And those samples amount to what? A few people on this forum complained about it for a few days in what can only be described as a collective yawn by the standards of this crowd. And your friends and neighbors? Let me guess, they were all considering TiVo but when this new pricing that makes it cheaper for them to get a TiVo was announced, they all changed their minds. Right?
> 
> Damn that $220 rebate, it's driving customers away in droves.


IMHO, what is driving people away in droves is the $19.95 per month with a one year commitment.

And really who cares about rebates; I am one of many who quit buying items because they have rebates. In fact, most of the large retailers already have plans to eliminate rebates from their pricing, like Best Buy.


----------



## bicker

Tiggerdrh said:


> So who's the winner and who's the loser when you treat current customers unfairly?


You're assuming facts not in evidence. Just because you don't like the pricing changes doesn't make them "unfair". There will always be some customers who will have and hold bad feelings about pricing, but professionals manage their companies affording only appropriate consideration of such outliers (i.e., very little consideration), and instead focus on the purchasing behaviors of the vast majority of their targeted customer base. Without access to the reconaissance that TiVo used to base its pricing decisions, all of us here are at a distinct disadvantage with regard to evaluating the new pricing: TiVo knows what they know, and we feel what we feel -- we only think we know what we think we know.

So given the choice between believing that a company made the best decision for the company based on applying professionalism, expertise and market data, versus believing that they didn't based on the gut feel and emotional reactions of some folks on a discussion board -- gosh -- that's not really a hard choice.  Figure that the pricing changes, unless precipitated more by the imminent catastrophic failure of the company (i.e., a "last ditch effort"), most likely are based on a sound understanding of how customers in general will view the pricing changes, and rest assured therefore that customers in general view the pricing changes as fair and reflective of the value provided by the service. While each of us will make that evaluation for ourselves, what matters to the business is how customers in general will make that evaluation.


----------



## bicker

Gai-jin said:


> That, and continued vocal opposition to the new plans.


To which you'll receive continued rebuttal.


----------



## bicker

Tiggerdrh said:


> Tivo's aren't cellphones. I feel that most people feel they need cellphones, they don't need DVR's.


Hmmm.... hard choice. I think, at this point, I'd sooner live without my cell phone than without my DVR. I use my DVR every day, and use my cell phone maybe once a week.



> Anyway, we can debate this until the end of time, it doesn't really matter does it? Only time will tell if TiVo's new pricing plan will work for them.


Indeed. Efforts to distort the reality are really quite silly. It is what it is, and its effectiveness will become apparent over time.


----------



## bicker

dswallow said:


> There's no easy answer. But over the years TiVo's not really making a lot of progress with the ideas they've chosen to implement, have they?


It's not clear, even, that there is a profitable way to sell DVRs as consumer electronics. There are more brands that have discontinued making DVRs for sale to the American public directly than there are brands currently doing so.


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## DCIFRTHS

bicker said:


> It's not clear, even, that there is a profitable way to sell DVRs as consumer electronics. There are more brands that have discontinued making DVRs for sale to the American public directly than there are brands currently doing so.


...but none of them were TiVos


----------



## bicker

Actually, some of them were.


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## DCIFRTHS

bicker said:


> Actually, some of them were.


I was making an attempt at a joke, but oh well 

Are you referring to rebranded TiVos in your post?


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## bicker

I wasn't specifically, instead thinking mostly of the Sony and LG DVRs, but of course Pioneer used to make TiVos, and now, of course, they don't.


----------



## RoyK

ChuckyBox said:


> Let me guess, they were all considering TiVo but when this new pricing that makes it cheaper for them to get a TiVo was announced, they all changed their minds.


Nope. When they learned that they needed to make a one, two, or three year commitment in order to be allowed to use a product that might be nice to have but they had never used before , had gotten along just fine without up until now, and might be obsoleted before their commitments were up by cheaper and better alternatives they sure did.


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## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Guess what? Even a new price structure is not profitable. Bundled price makes it just about break-even. TiVo actually loses money if they sell you TiVo for $199 with 1 year bundle and you do not re-sub. It is a catch 22 situation. They can't charge you more and they can't charge you less.


There you go again. Rather than just spinning, why don't you put things in perspective? Your pals at Echostar have a SAC of $688 and an ARPU of $62.86, putting them in almost the exact same situation (as are many subscription services). On top of that, the Dish churn is nearly twice what TiVo's is (1.76% vs. 0.9%) on much lower-margin customers.

TiVo's problem isn't that it can't make money on the subscribers it acquires, its problem is that it hasn't been able to acquire enough subscribers to remain viable long-term.


----------



## ChuckyBox

bicker said:


> While each of us will make that evaluation for ourselves, what matters to the business is how customers in general will make that evaluation.


It seems like such an obvious point, and yet it is lost on so many people here who think that their feelings, personal experience, and speculation as to how the marketing could be done better, are somehow a substitute for actual data. But then, I guess there are people who believe in astrology, ancient astronauts, and 100-MPG carburetors, too.

The reality is that we are not the market TiVo is trying to acquire. TiVo successfully marketed to us, but there aren't enough of us. TiVo is trying to cast its net wider and achieve mass distribution. So the fact that the company is offering pricing plans that don't appeal to us is not surprising.

It remains to be seen if the new marketing strategy will work. It is possible that it won't, and it is possible that there simply is no strategy that will sell standalone DVRs to the mass market. But claims that it won't work because someone's friend's aunt found it confusing are as irrational as they are irrelevant.


----------



## Budget_HT

I suspect that TiVo has used focus groups or some other suitable method of understanding new customer reactions to some proposed pricing plans. The long-term viability of TiVo is at stake here and I doubt that they have taken this lightly.

I am still waiting to see some definite examples that contradict what the TiVo representatives on this forum have said about existing owners (prior to the effective date of the pricing change) being qualified for the older month-to-month pricing structure and, for now, the current rates of $12.95 and $6.95 (MSD). They did state that these rates are subject to change in the future.

The examples we have heard about could still come from confused TiVo CSRs who should be challenged when we believe that they have misinterpreted the intent. A conversation with a supervisor about the intent conveyed by the TiVo reps on this board might help. We are all familiar with how "well" corporate policies and practices are communicated to the front-line troops.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> There you go again. Rather than just spinning, why don't you put things in perspective? Your pals at Echostar have a SAC of $688 and an ARPU of $62.86, putting them in almost the exact same situation (as are many subscription services). On top of that, the Dish churn is nearly twice what TiVo's is (1.76% vs. 0.9%) on much lower-margin customers.
> 
> TiVo's problem isn't that it can't make money on the subscribers it acquires, its problem is that it hasn't been able to acquire enough subscribers to remain viable long-term.


And you point is? Didn't I say the same thing? TiVo has to charge $19.95/month to be about break-even with SAC of about $200. Just like everybody else who offers free or near free hardware.If they charge less, they will lose money, if they charge more they will lose market share. Catch 22.


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## juanian

OK -- after pages *and pages* of comments, I'm still not sure what would happen to someone under the following circumstances:

I already have multiple TiVos; if I were to buy a Series2 TiVo with an expired subscription (like from eBay), what would be my monthly subscription cost? (Would it be the same as if I would buy a new TiVo?)


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## Einselen

juanian said:


> I already have multiple TiVos; if I were to buy a Series2 TiVo with an expired subscription (like from eBay), what would be my monthly subscription cost? (Would it be the same as if I would buy a new TiVo?)


Sorta, you will get MSD on it which would be 13.95/month with 1 yr committment, $8.95/month with 2 year committment or 6.95/month with 3 year committment. If you activated on a new account then the prices would be $6/month.


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## juanian

Einselen said:


> Sorta, you will get MSD on it which would be 13.95/month with 1 yr committment, $8.95/month with 2 year committment or 6.95/month with 3 year committment.


OK, that makes sense, but . . .


Einselen said:


> If you activated on a new account then the prices would be $6/month.


. . . I hadn't seen anything like this posted -- $6/mo (or is that supposed to be $6 *more* a month)?!?


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## Einselen

juanian said:


> I hadn't seen anything like this posted -- $6/mo (or is that supposed to be $6 *more* a month)?!?


Yes sorry $6 more a month meaning that 1 year would be 19.95, 2 years 14.95 and 3 years 12.95. Sorry about that missing word of more.


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## Phantom Gremlin

ChuckyBox said:


> It seems like such an obvious point, and yet it is lost on so many people here who think that their feelings, personal experience, and speculation as to how the marketing could be done better, are somehow a substitute for actual data. But then, I guess there are people who believe in astrology, ancient astronauts, and 100-MPG carburetors, too.


You're wrong, because *people do not behave rationally when they think they are being screwed.*

This is a new area of research called neuroeconomics. A quick google turned up a PubMed abstract of research into what is happening:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12805551&dopt=Abstract

_In this game, two players split a sum of money;one player proposes a division and the other can accept or reject this. We scanned players [using MRI] as they responded to fair and unfair proposals. Unfair offers elicited activity in brain areas related to both emotion and cognition. Further, significantly heightened activity in anterior insula for rejected unfair offers suggests an important role for emotions in decision-making._


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## ChuckyBox

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You're wrong, because *people do not behave rationally when they think they are being screwed.*


I've seen that study, but I don't see how it bears on the issue of managing a company based on hard data vs. anecdotal evidence and feelings. If consumers are reacting a certain way, it will show up in the data. People here are assuming that because they or their "friends" have a certain reaction, everyone (or a significant portion of the market) will have that reaction.

There are lots of counterintuitive truths in the world, that's why testing and sales data are so much more important than relying on one's feelings.


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## Gai-jin

But keep in mind that one vocal customer that got screwed can cause many potential customers to turn away.


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## ChuckyBox

Gai-jin said:


> But keep in mind that one vocal customer that got screwed can cause many potential customers to turn away.


On that, we agree.


----------



## HDTiVo

Budget_HT said:


> I suspect that TiVo has used focus groups or some other suitable method of understanding new customer reactions to some proposed pricing plans. The long-term viability of TiVo is at stake here and I doubt that they have taken this lightly.


I doubt TiVo takes it lightly, but I know I take TiVo lightly.



samo said:


> And you point is? Didn't I say the same thing? TiVo has to charge $19.95/month to be about break-even with SAC of about $200. Just like everybody else who offers free or near free hardware.If they charge less, they will lose money, if they charge more they will lose market share. Catch 22.


How much need they charge if SAC is $250? $300?


----------



## samo

HDTiVo said:


> How much need they charge if SAC is $250? $300?


Numbers are in - actual SAC is $287 and it cost TiVo about $30 per year to provide service. So here is your answer. To break-even:
1 year bundle should cost $317, 3 year bundle should cost $377.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

samo said:


> Numbers are in - actual SAC is $287 and it cost TiVo about $30 per year to provide service.


*BINGO!*

Most people understand that it costs relatively little for TiVo to supply them with program guide data. Especially if it's coming over relatively cheap Internet rather than relatively expensive dialup.

So look at the compaints here. People who are already "acquired". They try to re-activate a spare TiVo that's sitting on their shelf. Blammo! That will be $20/mo, please!

And everyone says *WTF?!!??!* I'm not paying that much. I'm your loyal customer. Why do you treat me like ****?


----------



## HDTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> *BINGO!*
> 
> Most people understand that it costs relatively little for TiVo to supply them with program guide data. Especially if it's coming over relatively cheap Internet rather than relatively expensive dialup.
> 
> So look at the compaints here. People who are already "acquired". They try to re-activate a spare TiVo that's sitting on their shelf. Blammo! That will be $20/mo, please!
> 
> And everyone says *WTF?!!??!* I'm not paying that much. I'm your loyal customer. Why do you treat me like ****?


Be careful not to be sensible, you'll go astray.


----------



## BlackBetty

if churn rates are so low, why the heck is TiVo throwing in all these stipulations? I have a family member asking me what the best deal is for a S2 DT TiVo and I have no idea how to answer her. 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr commitments, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, monthly payments. COME ON TIVO!!!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!! 

Are you trying to scare away potential customers? If so, its working.


----------



## 1283

BlackBetty said:


> 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr commitments, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, monthly payments.


That's simple. 3-year prepay.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

IMHO It doesn't make sense to do a 3 year prepay. You have no idea what the cable companies are going to roll out in the next two years or given the latest headlines how TiVo will even be faring financially. I can see one year prepay, maybe 2 year committment, but if there's no lifetime option I see no sense in signing up for a 3 year contract. I wouldn't even sign that with my cellphone company and I've been with them for 4 years now.


----------



## dswallow

Tiggerdrh said:


> IMHO It doesn't make sense to do a 3 year prepay. You have no idea what the cable companies are going to roll out in the next two years or given the latest headlines how TiVo will even be faring financially. I can see one year prepay, maybe 2 year committment, but if there's no lifetime option I see no sense in signing up for a 3 year contract. I wouldn't even sign that with my cellphone company and I've been with them for 4 years now.


When the pricing differences are as out of whack as TiVo's currently are, a 3-year prepay makes financial sense simply because of the price differences with lesser commitments or prepay periods.

If a 3-year prepay costs less than 16 months of monthly service on 1-year commitments, you need to completely put the 2-year term out of your mind and think in terms of a payoff in only 16 months.


----------



## samo

dswallow said:


> When the pricing differences are as out of whack as TiVo's currently are, a 3-year prepay makes financial sense simply because of the price differences with lesser commitments or prepay periods.
> 
> If a 3-year prepay costs less than 16 months of monthly service on 1-year commitments, you need to completely put the 2-year term out of your mind and think in terms of a payoff in only 16 months.


Or you can think in terms that $300 will buy you disposable DVR that will work for up to 3 years.


----------



## HDTiVo

Did someone forget 3yr prepay is the same price as 2yr prepay?


----------



## dswallow

HDTiVo said:


> Did someone forget 3yr prepay is the same price as 2yr prepay?


While that's true right now, it will be slightly higher at some point in the future, probably post-holiday season. Right now TiVo just wants to up their balance sheet by being able to show higher numbers 3 years out.


----------



## Tiggerdrh

I'm still not sure 3 years makes any sense. It's cheaper in the long run, but say you go with that plan on a current box (for me s2)..My box would be 4 years old at that point and I'm quite sure I'd want to upgrade before the end of that time period. I could transfer the service to another box, but then I probably wouldn't get any rebates on a new box.


----------



## HDTiVo

dswallow said:


> While that's true right now, it will be slightly higher at some point in the future, probably post-holiday season. Right now TiVo just wants to up their balance sheet by being able to show higher numbers 3 years out.


But will 2yr come down or 3yr go up, or some other permutation? 

TiVo needs the 3yr cash because they are bleeding like crazy despite the fact that they said everything was just fine 6 months ago, followed by a stock offering 3 months later. 

They want cash on the balance sheet and to say 'hey, we've got all these 3yr commits' while claiming their value is higher than before, without commiting to a NPV number or showing how they are more valuable than the increase in SAC it took to get them. :down:


----------



## dswallow

HDTiVo said:


> But will 2yr come down or 3yr go up, or some other permutation?


If you look closely at TiVo's site (well, it doesn't need to be too close, it's pretty much everywhere pricing is mentioned, like http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR) you'll see 3-year is going to be $349.


----------



## HDTiVo

dswallow said:


> If you look closely at TiVo's site (well, it doesn't need to be too close, it's pretty much everywhere pricing is mentioned, like http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR) you'll see 3-year is going to be $349.


Yes, I know about that, but my actual point is I have no idea what they might really do...and I doubt they have decided either. After all, they are using their most important selling season to experiment with pricing and figure out what to do next year. Does that sound like a company that knows what it is doing or has piles of research data to support their decisions?


----------



## BobCamp1

samo said:


> Or you can think in terms that $300 will buy you disposable DVR that will work for up to 3 years.


My video camera is $300. It's not disposable. If you think $300 is disposable, the next you want to dispose of it just send it to me instead.

Or you can think in terms that on top of $700 for an S3, you find out later that you have to pay an additional $300 for service, and even more three years from now. And then you find out that "service" does not include a full three-year warranty. And that the box is not fully compatible with your cable service, and may even be less so in the future.

Tivo's problem isn't their pricing scheme, or that they had two rate hikes in the past 12 months. Tivo is simply in a market where there is no money to be made. If they couldn't make money when there was no competition, how are they going to make money now?

And if they need the cash so bad, they should settle the Echostar lawsuit already!


----------



## bicker

BobCamp1 said:


> Tivo's problem isn't their pricing scheme, or that they had two rate hikes in the past 12 months. Tivo is simply in a market where there is no money to be made. If they couldn't make money when there was no competition, how are they going to make money now?


You're absolultely on-target.


----------



## HDTiVo

bicker said:


> You're absolultely on-target.


I thought you didn't know anything about anything? How can you know that? You have no research or models or real world tests to tell you that. You cannot know that because you are not TiVo - which is all knowing. 

Blowing smoke?


----------



## beady

beady said:


> I currently have a S2 DT at $12.95 month to month that I purchased back in July. I then added an S3 in October which is being billed at $6.95 a month. When the S2 is up I'll probably want to get rid of it. What will happen to my S3? Since it is no longer eligible for the MSD will it go to $12.95 month to month or will I have to go on some sort of commitment plan? Is there anyway I can switch the billing before canceling the S2 so that the S3 is the $12.95 unit and the S2 is the MSD unit?


I spoke to a TIVO CSR and they said they can't just switch the billing because it would involve canceling the account that is still within the commitment period. He did say that if I purchase another Series 3 before the DT expires I can transfer the $12.95 a month price to the new box. We'll see if that is true?

Are the MSD boxes considered a year commitment or are they month to month? I wonder if I can transfer the $12.95 to the Series 3 and then just cancel the DT. It's pretty sad when your subscription to your TV recording service is so complicated.


----------



## timckelley

beady said:


> It's pretty sad when your subscription to your TV recording service is so complicated.


That's what I think.


----------



## bicker

HDTiVo said:


> I thought you didn't know anything about anything?


I don't remember exactly but what I probably said was that you didn't know anything about anything. Regardless, BobCamp1's message was well-written, and indicated a clear understanding of the situation, without falling back on what he necessarily wanted to be true.


----------



## HDTiVo

bicker said:


> I don't remember exactly but what I probably said was that you didn't know anything about anything. Regardless, BobCamp1's message was well-written, and indicated a clear understanding of the situation, without falling back on what he necessarily wanted to be true.


I think you said or implied that based on the fact that _you _ know nothing, I must _therefore _ know nothing.

At least when you say you know nothing and are just blowing smoke you are honest. Today you are full of crap.


----------



## samo

HDTiVo said:


> I think you said or implied that based on the fact that _you _ know nothing, I must _therefore _ know nothing.
> 
> At least when you say you know nothing and are just blowing smoke you are honest. Today you are full of crap.


Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.
The question was two-fold "Can money be made in SA DVR market? " and "Can TiVo make money in SA DVR market?". The answer to both is conditional yes - if Tivo was owned by individual who cared about business. Even last quarter could have been profitable if waste was eliminated. For example $4 mils out of $11 mils loss was stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago. To contrast that - Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable. $10 mils for sales and marketing considering lousy performance is ridiculous. I would cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years. I would shave at least 40% of administrative cost and R&D cost. All these new features that TiVo is developing are made to create hype for next quarterly report, but do not help bottom line at all. Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas. Again, this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures. It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years. And I don't know what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth. TiVo never had large churn rate. There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more.


----------



## ChuckyBox

> Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable.


Holding Charlie Ergen out as a paragon of corporate virtue is like praising a rattlesnake for not eating its own children. The man is arguably one of the most unethical businessmen, if not human beings, in our society. That you seem to admire him depresses me and makes me seriously question your judgment and personal values.

As for your other comments, I agree with some, disagree with others, but don't want to argue about any of them. Mostly because we've already covered most of that ground.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> Holding Charlie Ergen out as a paragon of corporate virtue is like praising a rattlesnake for not eating its own children. The man is arguably one of the most unethical businessmen, if not human beings, in our society. That you seem to admire him depresses me and makes me seriously question your judgment and personal values.


Yes, I have to admit, I do admire self-made billionaires. And I wish I had what it takes to become one. I do not have any respect for WASP boys club CEO's who's only purpose is to steal money from the company that they are paid to run. Perfect example of that is HP. After Hewlett and Packard died the company and company spirit were essentially destroyed by greedy bastards on the board of directors.


----------



## ashu

Hey, samo, check these out. Very underrated, but they certainly enhance readability.

It took me a while to find your post praising Charlie after reading Chucky's opinion and the quoted subsection. Just a simple observation. You make (some) good points, but they're lost within that sea of characters that most people tend to gloss over, like I did!


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.


If that is so, then where's the rest of your post coming from?


----------



## samo

HDTiVo said:


> If that is so, then where's the rest of your post coming from?


Numbers from SEC filings. (Paragraph)

The rest from the experience gambling on stock market for last 10 years, observation of dot.com type companies behavior, and most importantly from the fact that I had nothing better to do at a time I composed that post.( Paragraph)

Just like now when I'm composing the answer.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> Yes, I have to admit, I do admire self-made billionaires. And I wish I had what it takes to become one.


Saddam Hussein achieved it through torture, murder, and genocide. Maybe you could try that route. I mean, money's the only thing, right?


----------



## samo

So to who you going to compare Charlie next? Hitler? Stalin? Chucky you are smarter than that. Certainly none of the super rich people is a saint. They wouldn't be rich if they were angels. They would be living paycheck to paycheck just like you do. All I know that people like Charlie could not accumulate 3 orders of magnitude more than I am by being stupid. To me it is enough to admire their accomplishments. And yes, I'm not Mother Teresa myself.


----------



## bicker

There starts another philosophical argument: Shouldn't there be laws requiring transparency in all monetary transactions? If there were, nothing could take place "under the table", there couldn't be any hidden deals or misappropriation without visibility, etc.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> So to who you going to compare Charlie next? Hitler? Stalin?


I assume you mean to invoke Godwin's law here, and I wll certainly give you that (though my comparison is not to Charlie, but to your expressed moral standards). But this requires me to introduce *Chucky's Corollary to Godwin's Law:*



> _Reductio ad absurdum_ often requires Nazis.


That aside, I don't expect the super rich to be saints any more than I expect any human to be a saint (including, ironically, the saints). But I don't believe that stealing from those weaker than oneself or those unable to defend their property because of your power to abuse the legal system is a legitmate path to wealth. Just as I don't believe murder, torture, or genocide are, though they are certanly immoral to different degrees. I realize this position probably puts me in the minority in our "anything for a buck" culture, but I can live with that.



> All I know that people like Charlie could not accumulate 3 orders of magnitude more than I am by being stupid.


You are equating "not stupid" with "unethical." That path leads to the justification of any action whatsoever.



> To me it is enough to admire their accomplishments.


I know it is. Regardless of how they reached those accomplishments. And that brings us right back to Saddam Hussein.


----------



## ChuckyBox

bicker said:


> There starts another philosophical argument: Shouldn't there be laws requiring transparency in all monetary transactions? If there were, nothing could take place "under the table", there couldn't be any hidden deals or misappropriation without visibility, etc.


Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Numbers from SEC filings. (Paragraph)
> 
> The rest from the experience gambling on stock market for last 10 years, observation of dot.com type companies behavior, and most importantly from the fact that I had nothing better to do at a time I composed that post.( Paragraph)
> 
> Just like now when I'm composing the answer.


So the SEC fillings include statements like:

_"stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago"

"cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years"

"Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas"

"this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures"

"It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years"

"what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth"

"There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more"_

I am just commenting on the absurd inconsistency of the same person writing that and saying "_Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company._" and calling me childish in the same context.

As far as your analysis, its in the ballpark, but not on the money. 

Nice to know you have some experience. Maybe somebody else does too. 



> Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.
> The question was two-fold "Can money be made in SA DVR market? " and "Can TiVo make money in SA DVR market?". The answer to both is conditional yes - if Tivo was owned by individual who cared about business. Even last quarter could have been profitable if waste was eliminated. For example $4 mils out of $11 mils loss was stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago. To contrast that - Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable. $10 mils for sales and marketing considering lousy performance is ridiculous. I would cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years. I would shave at least 40% of administrative cost and R&D cost. All these new features that TiVo is developing are made to create hype for next quarterly report, but do not help bottom line at all. Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas. Again, this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures. It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years. And I don't know what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth. TiVo never had large churn rate. There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more.


----------



## Gai-jin

ChuckyBox said:


> Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.


Good to see this thread has stayed on topic...


----------



## samo

HDTiVo said:


> I am just commenting on the absurd inconsistency of the same person writing that and saying "_Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company._" and calling me childish in the same context.


Apology for childish, didn't mean to offend you. But if you read SEC fillings (like 8K 4/4/2006 about bonuses to executives), look at numbers on financial statements, and connect the dots between timing of announcements and sale of securities by board of directors, you couldn't help but to notice that TiVo executives may not have the best interest of the company in mind when they make their decisions.


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Apology for childish, didn't mean to offend you. But if you read SEC fillings (like 8K 4/4/2006 about bonuses to executives), look at numbers on financial statements, and connect the dots between timing of announcements and sale of securities by board of directors, you couldn't help but to notice that TiVo executives may not have the best interest of the company in mind when they make their decisions.


OK


----------



## STTF

ChuckyBox said:


> Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.


Yes, and the system can handle some privileged information provided that there is an incentive not to defraud or abuse it - including criminal liability if necessary.


----------



## Justin Thyme

It's a matter of perspective I suppose. If folks really don't like the new plans tivo can go back to the old way. I don't have much besides anecdotal evidence that indicates this imbroglio about rates means nothing to the folks I run into that don't have Tivos. They didn't have any history or expectations and just look at it different. I tried to get myself into the mental space and yeah, I had to buy a new Tivo and thought about it.

Anyhow, our family has gotten rather ginormous and unwieldy with third cousins sleeping on the couch and what not so we have outgrown our house/ fleeing the relatives camped out at our old house so I had to look at buying some new Tivos. I was a little annoyed about how many choices there are in the new fee structure but to get it in perspective, I looked at the cost per month and that is what folks pay for text messaging. I know some folks are addicted to texting, but jeez, any kind of volume of text you have to pay $10 or $20 per month per phone for it. But $12.95 is off the charts exhorbitant for Video services? 

Well what the heck. Ok, say I go into economy mode. I had earthlink broadband installed at the new dacha. That comes in on the local cable company wire so now lo and behold I've got 80 analog channels on a dual tuner. I ask around and everyone has got a story to they know their "neighbor" gets analog cable for free. Ok so I could have paid $70 for the Dual Tuner after rebate at BestBuy. Not exactly a huge deal for anyone at Christmas. 

I can transfer plans so I sign up for 3 years and so even if I change it to some better box in the future I'm not out any money, and I am paying what was it- $8.95 per month? I think that's what it was because it is the multiple unit whatever the heck the acronym was. 

Seems like it's pretty darn worth it to me. Would I want a Cableco DVR? Well even if I knew nothing about about the two the answer would have to be No. For the local company DVR, it would cost me $11 extra for digital plus $9.95 for the box. $21 plus a bunch of piddly access charges etc. That is a better deal? 

The Filipino lady at the service station looked at my Tivo credit card and she double taked and said the family was thinking about getting one for Christmas. I told her the normal deal about how it changes the way you think about TV, and she grooved and her eyes were sparkling about something- I dunno- maybe she was thinking about not missing any of ther favorite soaps. Whatever. So she was off in this fairy land and she asks about how much it costs and I told her I was going to do the 3 year thing monthly thing for $8.95* and she like drew back- like wow that's a long time. Then something funny happened. 

I said- well you could pay $19.95 a month and the plan would be only a year. And the wierdest thing- she was back to all smiles after that. It's like I told her there is a Santa after all.

So I dunno- it's not the way I think about money and commitments, but I just see that different folks are comfortable with things that make no sense to me.



*Actually I should have told her it would have been $12.95 for her because she would not be on the Multiple whatever thingamajig- but with her thinking it was $8.95 she still saw red.


----------



## 1283

Justin Thyme said:


> I can transfer plans so I sign up for 3 years and so even if I change it to some better box in the future I'm not out any money, and I am paying what was it- $8.95 per month? I think that's what it was because it is the multiple unit whatever the heck the acronym was.


Anybody can get 3 years for $299. That's not the MSD (multi service discount) rate, which is $6.95/month with 3-year contract.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Yeah. I was unaware of the pay up front for 3, get one year free thing. Big numbers scared the crap out of her anyway, so that would probably been as bad as my talk of low monthly but commitment for 3. 

Anyway- don't know where $8.95 came from- the 2 year rate got stuck in my head I guess. I just can't keep bean counter stuff in my head very long. I do remember what !F666G does on an Apple ][ does though, and I suppose that's much less relevant than the Tivo blizzard of numbers that resemble batting averages or something. Ok Ok. So really I am paying $6.95 per month on that DT. Anyhow, I told her wrong but the point was that over half the price and the long commitment totally freaked her. 

My guess was that since she didn't know about whether or not all this stuff she had heard about Tivo was true, she didn't want to sign up for a long hitch. That's not so surprising I suppose. 

It was her reaction to the $19.95- I thought sure that was going to make her feel worse. I thought $20 was a pretty big hill, but maybe folks just look at it as an amount that is in the discretionary range. 

Kind of the Starbucks thing about $5 coffee I guess. I was saying to folks in Seattle- who but the coffeehouse college student crowd is going to pay that kind of money- especially when they are making $10 per hour. How will starbucks ever make any real money- and it's not like competitors can't just copy exactly what they are doing. My friends response was, Yeah but look at the customers. They love it. Well ok. But it seemed like a silly pitch to me. 

Anyway, service station attendant is a different kind of Tivo user. That's not from the typical wierd hodge podge of quirky folks that have shown up here in the past- the latest and greatest biggest and best/ linux anarchist/ Mac user-elegant thing/ technology talk in hex enthusiast/ scrounge for the best deal/ Mod it a la Tootime kind of typical customer. Maybe we are dinosaurs. Well, I suppose that is ok. I can answer questions about codecs for those that are having a hard time play converting free video off the net for play on their non HD Tivos.


----------



## HDTiVo

Why didn't you take the TiVoes with you when you moved out? That would have cleaned up the refugee situation.


----------



## bicker

Justin Thyme said:


> It's a matter of perspective I suppose. If folks really don't like the new plans tivo can go back to the old way.


Maybe not. Maybe the old was wasn't working -- so badly -- that either this way works, or there isn't any reason to continue.


----------



## iceman

Justin Thyme said:


> My guess was that since she didn't know about whether or not all this stuff she had heard about Tivo was true, she didn't want to sign up for a long hitch. That's not so surprising I suppose.


Should have told her about the 30 day Money Back Guarantee!


----------



## Justin Thyme

HDTiVo said:


> Why didn't you take the TiVoes with you when you moved out? That would have cleaned up the refugee situation.


 They love their Tivos and will pay or do anything to keep them.

The following comments not directed to you HD- that is indirectly my response to those who clearly do not believe in the potential of third party DVRs such as Tivo. Such assessments are fundamentally unprovable so what's the point. Someone either shares the vision and does something about it or they don't. No way could I prove to my bosses in the late 70s that microcomputers were revolutionairy tools for a corporation. They said they would ask the IBM rep what they thought. Needless to say, I left that company and worked in the microcomputer field. I was "throwing my career away", and these were nickel and dime garage operations that weren't making any money etc. and if they ever did hit on something then IBM would just crush them anyway.

I have run into that sort of skepticism endlessly in my career. It's an old story. Naval air power makes Battleships obsolete. "No it aren't", "yes they are", "no they can't", "yes they can". They are made of paper, not steel and so on and so forth.

Pointless trying to prove the unprovable. Status quo arguments generally win, so go right ahead. Do the sensible thing.


----------



## volswagn

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!


That is exactly the situation I found myself in tonight. Dropped Tivo in the bedroom and instead tried the Cablevision DVR for a year or so at $14.95 a month. Returned it a few weeks ago and went to restart my S2 140-hour tonight. Found the new pricing.

Decided I'll be doing all my recording in the living room from now on. This sucks.


----------



## iceman

volswagn said:


> That is exactly the situation I found myself in tonight.


Well, not _exactly_. You could face the _same_ fee structure if you were willing to commit for 3 years... and even if you only committed for 1 year, you'd still pay a dollar less a month than you were paying for the CableVision DVR...

Of course, you could try to argue with TiVo that you should get the old rate, based on TivoPony's post, although I don't think that's been interpreted that way:


TivoPony said:


> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.


----------



## volswagn

iceman said:


> Well, not _exactly_. You could face the _same_ fee structure if you were willing to commit for 3 years... and even if you only committed for 1 year, you'd still pay a dollar less a month than you were paying for the CableVision DVR...
> 
> Of course, you could try to argue with TiVo that you should get the old rate, based on TivoPony's post, although I don't think that's been interpreted that way:


#1) Yearly committment is a dealbreaker. The only company that I deal with right now that makes me commit to a year of service is my cellphone company. I have been with them for seven years now, and I know that the technology is not likely to change that much year-to-year for what I use it for (just telephone calls). I have no idea what technology I'll want in six month's time.

#2) As for the old rate, I find it interesting that TivoPony hasn't responded to this or any question here so many responses later... What if we DO own the equipment already?


----------



## ChuckyBox

volswagn said:


> #1) Yearly committment is a dealbreaker.


Then you won't be getting TiVo service. To initiate or reactivate service you are required to commit to a minimum 1-year contract. That has been the policy for more than a year now.

Based on what you've said, you're going to have to find a non-TiVo solution to your DVR needs. Sorry.


----------



## volswagn

ChuckyBox said:


> Then you won't be getting TiVo service. To initiate or reactivate service you are required to commit to a minimum 1-year contract. That has been the policy for more than a year now.
> 
> Based on what you've said, you're going to have to find a non-TiVo solution to your DVR needs. Sorry.


Guess it's finally time to make my own MythTV or Slipstream box. I've got some hardware laying around that I'm not using. I can't wait to see what happens to Tivo. In looking around for alternatives I've been reading quite a few PVR blogs in the last 24 hours. Can't believe how many people are irritated at the new pricing. Inevitably someone comes along and makes a 2-page post trying to explain how the new pricing scheme is actually BETTER and SIMPLER than the old one.

Folks, if it takes you two pages to rebutt gut reactions to your new pricing scheme, something is wrong... So long, Tivo...


----------



## bicker

There actually is no way to know how many people are actually "irritated at the new pricing." The Internet is like those passenger-side rear-view mirrors -- though in the case of the Internet it is more like "Objects appear bigger than they really are." I suspect that they did hurt themselves with this pricing, but (1) that's a guess and no one's guess here on TFC is worth more than a used piece of chewing gum, and (2) they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else.


----------



## ashu

volswagn said:


> Guess it's finally time to make my own MythTV or Slipstream box.


Good luck with that. Even for admitted/self-professed tech geks, that proves to be way more work than it's worth. I watch and delete shows, perhaps if I felt a dire need to archive HD quality stuff I might reconsider it ... but not until encrypted channels can be tuned on a PC


----------



## volswagn

ashu said:


> Good luck with that. Even for admitted/self-professed tech geks, that proves to be way more work than it's worth. I watch and delete shows, perhaps if I felt a dire need to archive HD quality stuff I might reconsider it ... but not until encrypted channels can be tuned on a PC


I'm down to basic cable anyway. I just want basic recording capability. Nothing fancy. That's why I'm amazed that Tivo won't take my money. I'm willing to give them $20 a month as long as they won't stick me to a contract, but they don't want it.

I just checked their latest SEC filing and I see they're still bleeding millions. Never turned a profit. I wonder why? With asinine stunts like this, it's easy to see. Imagine that. They're a household name and they can't turn a profit.

Latest filing also says that this latest pricing scheme will be reviewed in the next quarter to see how successful it was and that things might be adjusted. I have a feeling they're going to have to.

Their new subscription enrollment was also down in the third quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago. Not a good sign. Combined with these latest moves, I wonder how this quarter will go? The holidays will probably help, but I can't wait to see how this year compares to fourth quarter last year.


----------



## volswagn

bicker said:


> I suspect that they did hurt themselves with this pricing, but (1) that's a guess and no one's guess here on TFC is worth more than a used piece of chewing gum, and (2) they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else.


We won't have to guess. Let's check back in with each other after the 2006 4th quarter filing comes out and see how it compares to last year at this time, eh?

No need to guess at all. I could eat crow at that time, but for some reason I don't think so...


----------



## dswallow

volswagn said:


> We won't have to guess. Let's check back in with each other after the 2006 4th quarter filing comes out and see how it compares to last year at this time, eh?
> 
> No need to guess at all. I could eat crow at that time, but for some reason I don't think so...


It's not unheard of for corporate executives to manipulate things to paint rosy pictures to investors while the business is actually crumbling.

Think of WorldCom. Or Enron. Or any of thousands of other companies that are small enough not to get national attention when they fall apart.


----------



## bicker

Unfortunately, there is no way to "know" for sure, because we cannot go back and run reality the other way, and see how things worked out. As I indicated, "they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else." If that is the case, then they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't -- a no-win situation. That's actually my "most likely scenario." I don't believe there is a sufficiently profitable market for customer-owned DVRs in the United States.


----------



## ChuckyBox

volswagn said:


> I just checked their latest SEC filing and I see they're still bleeding millions. Never turned a profit. I wonder why? With asinine stunts like this, it's easy to see. Imagine that. They're a household name and they can't turn a profit.


That didn't take long. Bullwinkle strikes again. I'd like to say I am surprised, but that would be lying.



> Their new subscription enrollment was also down in the third quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago.


Wrong. New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. _Net_ subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base. If you need a lesson in holding back the tide of churn, have a look at DirecTV's or Echostar's net versus gross adds.



> The holidays will probably help, but I can't wait to see how this year compares to fourth quarter last year.


They've said that gross subscription additions will be less. Not only because of the subscription price increase, but because of a general hardware price increase (40% on their front-line SKU). But this was a deliberate, conscious choice the company has made -- apparently to garner "higher-value" subscribers. It is unclear what internal metrics they used to make this decision (though it is likely something to do with the churn rate of subs acquired at different price points), but it is pretty clear that whatever they found has caused them to reject what Wall Streets wants to see (higher subscription growth) in favor of another value metric.


----------



## volswagn

ChuckyBox said:


> New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. _Net_ subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base.


I stand corrected.



> They've said that gross subscription additions will be less. Not only because of the subscription price increase, but because of a general hardware price increase (40% on their front-line SKU). But this was a deliberate, conscious choice the company has made -- apparently to garner "higher-value" subscribers. It is unclear what internal metrics they used to make this decision (though it is likely something to do with the churn rate of subs acquired at different price points), but it is pretty clear that whatever they found has caused them to reject what Wall Streets wants to see (higher subscription growth) in favor of another value metric.


Volkswagen made a deliberate, conscious choice to garner "higher-value" customers when it introduced the Phaeton. Not three years later, that model was cancelled in the US and VW started offering a new "Rabbit" for the first time in over two decades.

Good luck, Tivo. I'd like to know what your stockholders think of you turning away customers like myself who would like to give you $20 a month (but don't want a commitment).

As I said, I'm eagerly awaiting their Q4 2006 announcement.


----------



## ChuckyBox

volswagn said:


> Volkswagen made a deliberate, conscious choice to garner "higher-value" customers when it introduced the Phaeton.


So did Toyota when it introduced Lexus. How did that work out?


----------



## volswagn

ChuckyBox said:


> So did Toyota when it introduced Lexus. How did that work out?


Different brand entirely. VW was trying to bring ITS OWN brand upscale with disasterous results.

If that's what Tivo is really trying to do with it's own product (and its own brand name), we'll see how it works out.

The obvious key to Tivo's future success with attempts to "move upscale" will be its add-on offerings like the Kids thing (whatever it is -- they didn't have it when I was a subscriber) and the ability to forward movies to family, partnerships with networks for downloadable content and things like that. If they can offer these as "get the real Tivo because it can do these things that your cable company's DVR can't," then they might be able to do it. These are the things I can see "upscale customers" spending for. People like me who are happy to just record & watch regular TV shows and who don't need the extras (I download shows off USENET when I miss them with the cable company's DVR), won't buy into it.

From the ads I've seen, they aren't really pushing these... They're just saying if it ain't Tivo, it ain't Tivo.

But what do I know. I'm not a marketing exec. We should just trust them I guess.


----------



## HDTiVo

I see the TiVo Troll has returned.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> Wrong. New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. _Net_ subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base. If you need a lesson in holding back the tide of churn, have a look at DirecTV's or Echostar's net versus gross adds.


Actually REAL churn rate for TiVo went down from last year (probably due to mandatory 1 year commitment that was introduced about a year ago). Here the calculations for REAL churn (accounting for the fact that lifetimers don't cancel the service).
Q32006 total subs 1625, 45% lifetime/55% recurring 894K recurring / 731K life
Q22006 total subs 1572, 47% lifetime/53% recurring 833K recurring /738K life
Number of lifetimes is down by 7K so churn for lifetime subs is 0.3% (or 4% per year)
That makes recurring subs loss 41K and churn rate of 1.53% (or 18% per year) on recurring subs.
If you compare this number with a same time a year ago:
Q32005 total subs 1308K, 51% recurring or 667K
Q22005 total subs 1253K, 51% recurring or 639K
With 37K subs loss churn rate same time last year was 1.85% (or 22% per year)
Interestingly enough, churn rate for DirecTiVo in Q32006 was only 0.44%.
It seems to be a strong correlation between monthly sub charge and churn rates.
PS. Chucky, feel free to tear apart my numbers as you always do.


----------



## ChuckyBox

samo said:


> PS. Chucky, feel free to tear apart my numbers as you always do.


Well, only because you asked nicely...

Actually, I think what you are trying to do is a valid approach. I don't think it pertains to the point I was making, which was a gross vs. net argument, but I agree that there is a difference between the lifetime and recurring subs' churn rates.

I think the main problem with your analysis is that the "% of TiVo-Owned Cumulative Subscriptions paying recurring fees" number from TiVo is given in full percentage points against a large number (total subscriptions), and then you apply it to a small number (churn). 55% means: 54.5% <= X < 55.5% (assuming TiVo doesn't use another rounding convention). When applied to ~1.6 million, that percentage point range means a range of 16,000 out of the 48,000 total churn (a somewhat rounded number itself).

If you run this range through your calculation, it gives numbers from 1.17% to 1.80% for recurring sub churn. I think we will be able to get closer to the real number eventually, but it might take a couple more quarters before we can narrow the error bars.

Also, I'm not sure how you got 1.85% for last year's churn since TiVo was still adding lifetime subs back then. Did you use the lifetime churn percentage you got for the most recent quarter and apply it to last year, assuming that it hasn't changed much?

A final nitpick: to calculate churn in a manner that is consistent with the way TiVo does it, you should use the average subs per quarter, not the end-of-quarter cumulative number.


----------



## samo

ChuckyBox said:


> Also, I'm not sure how you got 1.85% for last year's churn since TiVo was still adding lifetime subs back then. Did you use the lifetime churn percentage you got for the most recent quarter and apply it to last year, assuming that it hasn't changed much?


Actually I just ignored lifetimes (mistake on my part). Using your suggestion and assuming that lifetime churn percentage is a same as last quarter makes churn rate for the last year almost a same (1.55%) as this year. Here goes my conclusion that churn is down.  You are also absolutely right about round-off error. So for practical purpose there is no evidence of either positive or negative effect of mandatory commitment.


----------



## 1283

How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?


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## dswallow

c3 said:


> How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?


Creatively. 

I believe it's been said that lifetime units need to connect to TiVo periodically in order for the unit to remain on TiVo's records as an active unit and thus qualifying the account for multi-service discounts on any other units owned. Maybe those that don't maintain that communication and are dropped are what TiVo considers "churn." Ostensibly it's to account for units that die and can no longer function, since lifetime is associated with the unit.


----------



## ChuckyBox

c3 said:


> How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?





TiVo's FY2006 10-K said:


> We offer a product lifetime subscription for general sale, under which consumers could purchase a subscription that is valid for the lifetime of a particular DVR. We have announced our intention to eliminate the product lifetime service option. We count these as subscriptions until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the four-year period we use to recognize lifetime subscription revenues ends, and (ii) the related DVR has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six-month period. Lifetime subscriptions past the four-year mark which have not called into the TiVo service for six-months are not counted in this total.


.


----------



## Adam1115

I'm trying to figure out how much it's going to cost to get a second TiVo, but apparently that is a very complicated question!! From this thread:



TiVoPony said:


> Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
> A.	This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.


But from tivo, http://www.tivo.com/2.9.9.asp#7



> Are TiVo Packages eligible for a Multi-Service Discount?
> As of March 13, 2006, TiVo Package purchases are not eligible for our Multi-Service Discount. If you have a box that you purchased either through tivo.com prior to March 13, 2006 or in a retail store location, AND it is on the same account as up to 4 other TiVo boxes in your network, you are eligible for Multi-Service Discount for that box. See full terms and conditions for the Multi-Service Discount for more information.


So what, do I need to buy one off ebay to pay $6.95/mo? Is there a discount for MSD on the prepaid plans? If I prepay for 3 years is it still $299? HELP!


----------



## Einselen

Adam1115 said:


> So what, do I need to buy one off ebay to pay $6.95/mo? Is there a discount for MSD on the prepaid plans? If I prepay for 3 years is it still $299? HELP!


To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.

There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.

Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.


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## ChuckyBox

Einselen said:


> To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com.


If the OP is paying monthly on his current box, he can also get any of the tivo.com bundled box/plans, and his existing box will drop to the MSD rate.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

Don't worry, the good news is that eventually this pricing fiasco will make an excellent Harvard Business School case study on how *not* to market a product.


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## Einselen

ChuckyBox said:


> If the OP is paying monthly on his current box, he can also get any of the tivo.com bundled box/plans, and his existing box will drop to the MSD rate.


I missed that bit of info, sorry I confused you. Chucky is right. Thanks for catching that. I should have a rule that I am unable to post on the forums until I have been awake for at least 1 hour.


----------



## Adam1115

Einselen said:


> To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.
> 
> There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.
> 
> Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.


Ugh! Why doesn't this faq from TiVo mention this? It makes no distinction!

Anyway, I have a Series3 with the $299 3 year prepaid plan. So I guess I'm screwed.

You mean to tell me I have to manage a credit card to pay $6.95 a month? There is NO WAY to prepay it? How ANNOYING! Never heard of a company not letting you PREPAY, how ridiculous! (Or, to be more correct, charges you EXTRA to prepay.)

Anyway TiVoPony could correct the faq? It is misleading as it makes no distinction as to a TiVo.com box and a box purchased elsewhere!!


----------



## Einselen

Adam1115 said:


> Ugh! Why doesn't this faq from TiVo mention this? It makes no distinction!
> 
> Anyway, I have a Series3 with the $299 3 year prepaid plan. So I guess I'm screwed.
> 
> You mean to tell me I have to manage a credit card to pay $6.95 a month? There is NO WAY to prepay it?


The F.A.Q. says it you just add a box to your account not box and service (which is what ordering from Tivo.com is). I can see though where you can get confused.

Now in regards to "managing" a credit card don't you also have to manage a credit card to do prepaid? I know it is one time to manage at the start of the prepay and pay it off, but at the end of 3 years you will have to "manage the card" or do another prepaid option. Are you saying you don't use a credit card for purchases? I would never be able to not do that, but more power to you. Not to mention I think you should at least have one credit card with a small amount of credit on it that you use maybe just for gas and groceries and pay off each month. It helps your credit score.


----------



## timckelley

Adam1115 said:


> Anyway TiVoPony could correct the faq?


Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.


----------



## Adam1115

Einselen said:


> The F.A.Q. says it you just add a box to your account not box and service (which is what ordering from Tivo.com is). I can see though where you can get confused.
> 
> Now in regards to "managing" a credit card don't you also have to manage a credit card to do prepaid? I know it is one time to manage at the start of the prepay and pay it off, but at the end of 3 years you will have to "manage the card" or do another prepaid option. Are you saying you don't use a credit card for purchases? I would never be able to not do that, but more power to you. Not to mention I think you should at least have one credit card with a small amount of credit on it that you use maybe just for gas and groceries and pay off each month. It helps your credit score.


I'm not saying I CAN'T manage it, I just prefer to pay it once, get a discount for doing so (like I did on the series3), pay it off and be done with it.

Sure, I agree that it sucks that I have to go through it again in 3 years, but they don't offer lifetime, so that's the only choice.

A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.


----------



## 1283

Adam1115 said:


> they don't offer lifetime, so that's the only choice.


They do. Just buy lifetime on eBay for $300 or less, and pay $199 for the VIP offer.



Adam1115 said:


> A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.


You don't use the credit card for anything else?


----------



## ChuckyBox

Adam1115 said:


> A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.


Look into online banking with automated bill pay. I have a card whose entire purpose is to pay recurring payments. The bill goes to the bank, the bank pays it on the due date with no intervention by me. When I'm paying my other bills, I glance at it to make sure it is what it should be. Try it, you'll like it.


----------



## ChuckyBox

timckelley said:


> Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.


He's pitching a new glo-remote in another thread.


----------



## Adam1115

c3 said:


> They do. Just buy lifetime on eBay for $300 or less, and pay $199 for the VIP offer.
> 
> You don't use the credit card for anything else?


Well, I hadn't planned on a whole discussion about my bills, but the gist of it is:

1) Sometimes I use my credit cards for other things, sometimes I don't. USUALLY, I don't have other charges, no. I only use credit cards for bigger purchases. Gas, and other day to day stuff is not on credit cards, so many months I don't. Honestly I don't like to use credit cards at all, but dislike debit cards worse due to it being tied to my checking account.

2) If it's the only option, or the best way to go, I'll suck it up and do the monthly charge to the credit card. It's not THAT big of a deal, I do it for Packet 8, it just isn't my preference to do it this way.

3) Part of the reason I don't like it is that I don't like giving someone the authority to charge reoccurring charges to companies. It's fine when everything goes smooth, but when there are billing problems it can be a disaster. (You dispute a charge , then they charge you again the next month. I got into a big mess with an ISP that refused to stop billing my card. I finally had to cancel the card, then you have to go straighten out these other companies that charge your credit card monthly with a new number.)

It's not THAT big of a deal, its just something I'd rather not do. Since it appears its the only way to go, thats fine, I just wanted to get my head around it since the faqs are confusing. It was nice that I could prepay for the 3 year service for $299, I was kind of hoping their was an equivalent to that for MSD.


----------



## Adam1115

Einselen said:


> To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.
> 
> There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.
> 
> Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.


Ok! Another question, Best Buy has an add for a Series 2 for free, after mail in rebate. Do you qualify for the mail in rebate and a $6.95/mo 3 year plan??


----------



## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> Ok! Another question, Best Buy has an add for a Series 2 for free, after mail in rebate. Do you qualify for the mail in rebate and a $6.95/mo 3 year plan??


Yes.

Well... as long as you don't buy it from Best Buy's subtract.


----------



## kunalseth

rply to


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.


He's probably taking it easy until January when his department goes to work on some new way to sell TiVoes. 

What poor Adam is running into is TiVo not bothering to update their March '06 info and reconcile it with the latest story, amongst other things.


----------



## timckelley

By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answers, which doesn't bode well.  It makes it seem like the answers are not going to be good.


----------



## dswallow

timckelley said:


> By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answeres, which doesn't bode well.  It makes it seem like the answers are not going to be good.


Especially when in other threads they'll pop up sometimes within minutes or hours of a post with a response.

But hey, at least we can whine about it someplace.


----------



## bicker

timckelley said:


> By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answers


Or that they simply don't think that answering the questions in this type of venue will be productive and beneficial.


----------



## timckelley

bicker said:


> Or that they simply don't think that answering the questions in this type of venue will be productive and beneficial.


Anybody here know which venue they're answering the questions in? I'd be interested to go read the latest FAQ.


----------



## ChuckyBox

timckelley said:


> Anybody here know which venue they're answering the questions in? I'd be interested to go read the latest FAQ.


I think it is pretty clear that the issues raised here are fairly minor and most of the commentary came from a small number of individuals in fairly specific situations. The vast majority of existing subscribers are unaffected by the changes.

Eventually we will get the answers we crave, if not via direct statements of policy, then through empirical evidence.


----------



## sactoroy

dswallow said:


> Yes.
> 
> Well... as long as you don't buy it from Best Buy's subtract.


I'm not sure what you mean by subtract but BB has a coupon for 12% off with a Reward Zone membership and Tivo hardware is allowed. I've got a S2 with a lifetime subscription. The BB price is $219.99 less 12% = $193.59. So you would make $26.41 before tax. However, I am a bit confused with the MSD. To get the $6.95/mo price for this new box, I have to sign up for a 3 year plan? Is the 3 year plan a prepaid amount, that is, I pay $250 up front for the 3 years or am I just charged $6.95/mo for three years?


----------



## Adam1115

Yea, I just gave up and bought one on ebay...


----------



## dswallow

sactoroy said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by subtract but BB has a coupon for 12% off with a Reward Zone membership and Tivo hardware is allowed. I've got a S2 with a lifetime subscription. The BB price is $219.99 less 12% = $193.59. So you would make $26.41 before tax. However, I am a bit confused with the MSD. To get the $6.95/mo price for this new box, I have to sign up for a 3 year plan? Is the 3 year plan a prepaid amount, that is, I pay $250 up front for the 3 years or am I just charged $6.95/mo for three years?


"subtract" was just a little joke about the "add" in the post I replied to when "ad" was what was intended.

The MSD plan is only good for monthly service; you can't use any of the prepaid options and get any more discount. You just need to commit for 3 years to get the $12.95-$6.00/month MSD rate; you'll pay it monthly. The 3-year prepaid price works out to $8.30/month.


----------



## sactoroy

dswallow said:


> "subtract" was just a little joke about the "add" in the post I replied to when "ad" was what was intended.
> 
> The MSD plan is only good for monthly service; you can't use any of the prepaid options and get any more discount. You just need to commit for 3 years to get the $12.95-$6.00/month MSD rate; you'll pay it monthly. The 3-year prepaid price works out to $8.30/month.


Thanks! Just the answer I was looking for before adding another box.


----------



## mcouture

I currently have 2 Time Warner Cable DVRs which I hate, but I only pay $5.95/month each. 

To replace these DVRs, I'd have to pay Tivo, $69.99 per box(after rebate) plus $19.95/month for the first plus $12.95/month for the second box.....holy cow!

PLUS, one of the TW DVR boxes is a HD DVR.....Tivo's answer is $799 + service!


----------



## catcard

Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this! I currently still have my Phillips Series 1 for which I pay 12.95 per month (no fancy extras that the S2 & S3 have). I love my Tivo service - I can't imagine having to go back to watching live TV again! If I was told I had to pay $24.95 a month for my service so that the company does not go out of business, that would be fine with me. Tivo MUST figure out how to get to a profit making situation - I can fully understand that - why is this so hard to understand? 

An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?

Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!


----------



## Gai-jin

catcard said:


> An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?
> 
> Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!


Perhaps you're what's considered wealthy? Your bottom line seems to be different than most. I'm not willing to pay double the current pricing. I'd pay the $6 or so a month that my cable company charges for their dvr.

As for the ETF, your cell phone service has an ETF because the subsidise the phone. You can get service without a long term contract, and with no ETF, by buying the phone for full price or bringing your own phone. Tivo, on the other hand, offers no such exemption.

I'm surprised that tivo has the flat ETF... I know many states require the cell phone companies to pro-rate the etf, I would have expected such requirements to apply to any such long term service contract.


----------



## Adam1115

catcard said:


> Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this! I currently still have my Phillips Series 1 for which I pay 12.95 per month (no fancy extras that the S2 & S3 have). I love my Tivo service - I can't imagine having to go back to watching live TV again! If I was told I had to pay $24.95 a month for my service so that the company does not go out of business, that would be fine with me. Tivo MUST figure out how to get to a profit making situation - I can fully understand that - why is this so hard to understand?
> 
> An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?
> 
> Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!


Well I'm sure most people agree that TiVo provides a valuable service. It's nice that you can afford to pay whatever, that's great!

If the service is so awesome for you, why didn't you buy lifetime for you series1? Sounds like you've paid out close a grand in service fees for which you could have paid $199 for lifetime! Sounds like this forum is full of people that watch what they are paying a little more carefullly then just shelling out cash without looking for other deals.

Also, a lot of the complaining is not about the fees themselves, but the fact that something simple has been made complicated.

If you buy a TiVo, you now have to decide between three different price plans. This is three times more complex than the single $12.95 plan they had before.

If you buy a TiVo from their website you don't qualify for the multiple box discount, regardless of conflicting information posted by TiVo employees in this thread. Not a big deal if your a person that would pay $800 extra in service fees when they could've bought $199 lifetime, I guess.. Some of the logic was that they are giving the boxes away for free on tivo.com, yet the retail stores are doing free after rebate. TiVo's rebate process is NOT consumer friendly.

3)


----------



## mcouture

I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.

However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.

$1800+ in startup costs
$71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)

...and I'm whining? Who wouldn't at these prices. If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.

Lower pricing should bring more people should bring more service contracts and eventually more $$$ and profits should follow. Raising prices rarely does any good long-term.


----------



## ashu

Why do people insist on posting WORST POSSIBLE CASE prices as well as subscription costs?

If you're going to invest that much in TiVos, you'll find better deals and commit for longer. 

And the (SD) boxes are CHEAPER than your suggested cheaper prices.

And, and ...

Your math is so seriously flawed, even I don't have the patience to correct it


----------



## dswallow

mcouture said:


> I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.
> 
> However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.
> 
> $1800+ in startup costs
> $71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)


You have that wrong; if you buy them from TiVo there's no discount for multiple units on the same account, at least not until you get past the initial commitment period. Well, except for the Series3 units... maybe through TiVo, and definitely from other retailers (and it's basically the same price from either source).

So technically that's $19.95 x 3 per month plus $13.95 * 2 per month, or $87.75/month for a 1 year commitment. After the first year (the original commitment period), you'd be able to utilize the multi-service discount on 4 of them

If you make a 3 year commitment on all the units, that'd make it $12.95 * 3 per month plus $6.95 * 2 per month, or $52.75/month.

If you prepaid for 3 years, you'd need to come up with $1,495, but it would be about like paying just $8.305 x 5 per month, or $41.53/month. Though it'd be cheaper to just prepay for the 3 SD units and go month-to-month with the 3-year commitment on the Series3 units since the discounted $6.95/month is less than the effective monthly cost of the 3-year prepay. So that'd be only $897 up front plus $6.95 x 2 per month, or $13.90/month, together that's about the same as paying $38.82/month.

You could buy 2 of them retail, and get a rebate covering most of the unit cost, then those would qualify for the multiservice discount. You can't do it with more than 2 though since the rebate is limited to 2 per household.

Now wasn't that simple and easy to understand? We all need to thank TiVo for simplifying this whole thing. Imagine what it'd have been like before!


----------



## Einselen

dswallow said:


> We all need to thank TiVo for simplifying this whole thing. Imagine what it'd have been like before!


Scary enough that was simplified more then what would have been the cases on the old plan. Also the reason why this becomes so complex is because we are dealing with 5 different Tivos so we do this price and then do monthly on the entire 5 together and this and that. Still though I don't even want to think about what hte old plan would have churned out.


----------



## bicker

catcard said:


> Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this!


You're perhaps the type of customer that TiVo is aiming to make their typical customer, and indeed that had better come to pass or they had better just close up shop and go home now. There are a lot of people who want TiVo, or have TiVo and want to continue using TiVo, who perhaps are not as able to afford what they want, and therefore are frustrated at the conflict between the value they desire and the price of securing that value. That's what most likely accounts for the whining you referred to.


----------



## ChuckyBox

mcouture said:


> ...and I'm whining?


Yes.



> Who wouldn't at these prices.


Someone who recognizes that if they don't like the price of the product they are under no obligation to buy it.



> If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
> The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.


It's interesting that your proposed pricing has nothing to do with the costs or market realities with which the company has to contend, only what you think you should pay. Did I say "interesting?" I meant "ridiculous."


----------



## mcouture

ChuckyBox,

Correct, I am whining. I'm whining because I have a need and I am willing to buy but I have no idea how to go about getting the "best deal".

My "proposed pricing" was just an example. You're right, I have no idea of their costs for the equipment. It was an example and nothing more. Ridiculous, not really.

I am "someone who recognizes that if they don't like the price" I don't have to buy. 

I'm willing to pay "a premium" to get rid of my rented DVR equipment and go with a Tivo. However the premium is (in my opinion) way out of line. AND I am (potential) buyer who "can' afford it...if I want.


----------



## mcouture

So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service. 

Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.


----------



## Adam1115

mcouture said:


> I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.
> 
> However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.
> 
> $1800+ in startup costs
> $71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)
> 
> ...and I'm whining? Who wouldn't at these prices. If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
> The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.
> 
> Lower pricing should bring more people should bring more service contracts and eventually more $$$ and profits should follow. Raising prices rarely does any good long-term.


Well, yea, I guess if you make every possible wrong decision and refuse to use any common sense, you could pay that much.

But if you are smart, and know how to shop online, you'd pay $679 per TiVo, *2 = $1358. You can get SD-TiVo's for about $25 used, the first one would be free new (after rebate) from Best Buy. Now we're at $1358 + $50, so $1408.

Monthly fees are $299 for 3 years on your two TiVo's, that's $8.31/mo, and $6.95 for the remaining 3. That's $37.47 a month.

So $1408 in startup costs and $37.47 a month.

And honestly, I don't believe that you currently have 2 HD DVR's and 3 SD DVR's from your cable company. Most cable companies give you crap if you want more than one! Even comcast charges you $9.99 for a dvr and $5 per outlet...


----------



## ChuckyBox

mcouture said:


> So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service.
> 
> Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.


Box 1: $19.95/month or $199 upfront
Box 2: $13.95/month

If you already have other TiVos, at least one of which is a full price box (any of lifetime, monthly, pre-paid, or bundled), both boxes would be $13.95/month.


----------



## Adam1115

mcouture said:


> So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service.
> 
> Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.


First, I think you will only qualify for one rebate. Maybe get a Single tuner version off of ebay to save some...

If you commit to 1 year, you'll pay $19.95 a month for the first one ($239.40) and $13.95/mo for the second. ($167.40)

Which would be stupid.

Pay the extra $60 and you have THREE YEARS of service on the first one, second one will be $6.95 a month for 3 years.

Total 3 year cost for both- $549.20

Total 3 year cost on the one year plan- $1,220.40 (or, $406.80 per year. It's only $142.40 more to get THREE TIMES the service!)

Honestly though, this is way too confusing. They should simply do away with the one year two year nonsense. Make it a three year contract, and have ONE plan for monthly and ONE plan for prepaid, give a discount for MSD, and that's it.


----------



## mcouture

Thanks ChuckyBox.

Adam1115, I currently have 1 HD-DVR and 1 SD-DVR and pay $5.95/month each for the service. 
They do charge me $7.95/month each for the box rental, but that wouldn't change if I went with Tivo as I would have to get their set-top-box and they charge $7.95 for each of these anyway.


----------



## megazone

I thought I'd toss in the before & after comparison tables.


----------



## mcouture

Oh darn, I just re-read your response Adam1115 and if I get the 3-year service I can get the second one for $6.95 per month!?!

I read BestBuy's rebate and I can get up-to two Tivos on the rebate,, so I can get 2 Series2 2-tuner for $69/each. 

So how would this work, I would have to commit to 3-years on both at $299 to get the best deal right?

So $600 for service for both for 3 years....equalling ~$16/month for service right?


----------



## ChuckyBox

mcouture said:


> Oh darn, I just re-read your response Adam1115 and if I get the 3-year service I can get the second one for $6.95 per month!?!
> 
> I read BestBuy's rebate and I can get up-to two Tivos on the rebate,, so I can get 2 Series2 2-tuner for $69/each.
> 
> So how would this work, I would have to commit to 3-years on both at $299 to get the best deal right?
> 
> So $600 for service for both for 3 years....equalling ~$16/month for service right?


No, if you commit for three years, you can get box 1 at $12.95/month or $299 upfront ($8.31 per month) and box 2 for $6.95 per month. So either $19.90 per month or $15.26 per month, depending on how you want to pay.


----------



## mcouture

Ok, got it..maybe. 

I have a need for more features and stability than TimeWarner's DVR can give me, so at $19.90/month vs $12/month(TW)... I'm willing to try....even at a 3-year commitment.

If it works out (and the Series3 gets cheaper) then I'll dive into Tivo HD.....

Thanks for putting up with me...... you're a lively bunch!


----------



## ashu

Just get two S3s NOW, add CableCards, dump ALL your cable company boxes ... and live happily ever after 

Remember to taste the KoolAid - it's awesome!


----------



## 1283

Something is wrong here: The cost of S3 with prepaid service (1, 2, or 3 years) is the same as S3 with service + absolutely free 540 box without service.


----------



## HDTiVo

c3 said:


> Something is wrong here: The cost of S3 with prepaid service (1, 2, or 3 years) is the same as S3 with service + absolutely free 540 box without service.


Huh?


----------



## 1283

HDTiVo said:


> Huh?


Pick one. Same cost.

1. S3 box, prepaid service for one unit.
2. S3 box, 540 box, prepaid service for one unit.

"S3 box" can be substituted with any fully paid unit. "Prepaid service" can be substituted with any monthly service without MSD.


----------



## ashu

c3 said:


> Pick one. Same cost.
> 
> 1. S3 box, prepaid service for one unit.
> 2. S3 box, 540 box, prepaid service for one unit.
> 
> "S3 box" can be substituted with any fully paid unit. "Prepaid service" can be substituted with any monthly service without MSD.


Huh?

Are you saying the sub cost for an S3 or S2 box are identical? I'm completely lost. Use small numbers, a large font and big, simple diagrams in your next attempt to explain this


----------



## HDTiVo

ashu said:


> Huh?
> 
> Are you saying the sub cost for an S3 or S2 box are identical? I'm completely lost. Use small numbers, a large font and big, simple diagrams in your next attempt to explain this


Jeez, I thought it was my medication.


----------



## 1283

Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.

Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.

Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?


----------



## ashu

c3 said:


> Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.
> 
> Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.
> 
> Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?


And then there was light.

So?

Current 540 purchases with 3 year contracts lead to potential 540 doorstop situation at the end of the 3 year contract. This way, you make it an instant doorstop.

I doubt enough people will do this to make TiVo feel the pain*. But then again, this COULD explain the SHOCKING glut of brand new, unopened 540 boxes on craigslist! Of course, those folks want anything from $60 through $150 for these units! 

*Compare to the Costco return policy. There are loosely substantiated rumore it will go away due to excessive abuse. I imagine TiVo is at least one half as smart as Costco and will do the same


----------



## ashu

HDTiVo said:


> Jeez, I thought it was my medication.


Did you not read the warning label? It causes massive, selective convenient (mis)interpretation in 1080P threads!


----------



## samo

c3 said:


> Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.
> 
> Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.
> 
> Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?


Nice scam. I wonder if TiVo marketing geniuses will use it as a reason to disallow sub transfers in a next iteration of price list.


----------



## HDTiVo

ashu said:


> And then there was light.
> 
> So?
> 
> Current 540 purchases with 3 year contracts lead to potential 540 doorstop situation at the end of the 3 year contract. This way, you make it an instant doorstop.
> 
> I doubt enough people will do this to make TiVo feel the pain*. But then again, this COULD explain the SHOCKING glut of brand new, unopened 540 boxes on craigslist! Of course, those folks want anything from $60 through $150 for these units!
> 
> *Compare to the Costco return policy. There are loosely substantiated rumore it will go away due to excessive abuse. I imagine TiVo is at least one half as smart as Costco and will do the same


So that means if I bought a 540 on a 3 yr plan for example, and the 540 explodes, I can get a replacement 540 for $60 instead of going through TiVo for a replacement for whatever they charge. And TiVo gets zip for that replacement 540.

Let's say just the HD fails. I can get a replacement box w/ working HD for $60 ($0 for TiVo) and have the original box as a backup needing only a working HD.


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Nice scam. I wonder if TiVo marketing geniuses will use it as a reason to disallow sub transfers in a next iteration of price list.


Leaks in the **** keep springing.


----------



## 1283

This problem is another way of saying: "Why use an unsubsidized/fully-paid box when I can get a new box for free". The problem can be solved by giving an incentive (lower sub fee or shorter commitment) for bring-your-own-box plan.


----------



## bicker

Either you're willing to pay what the seller is willing to sell for, or you're not. As Chucky said, you're under no obligation to pay a price you don't like. Similarly, the seller is under no obligation to sell at a price they don't like. That's the nature of the mass-market. Complaining ("whining") is a bit pointless -- the strongest and most convincing way to complain is to not make the purchase. Money talks. No harm, no foul, no reason to demonize anyone or anything. It's just business.


----------



## Adam1115

bicker said:


> Either you're willing to pay what the seller is willing to sell for, or you're not. As Chucky said, you're under no obligation to pay a price you don't like. Similarly, the seller is under no obligation to sell at a price they don't like. That's the nature of the mass-market. Complaining ("whining") is a bit pointless -- the strongest and most convincing way to complain is to not make the purchase. Money talks. No harm, no foul, no reason to demonize anyone or anything. It's just business.


The complaining isn't about the price, its about trying to figure what the price IS!


----------



## iceman

The same principle applies though .


----------



## bicker

I disagree. I think the vast majority of the messages in this thread really are about the price itself.


----------



## Gai-jin

bicker said:


> I disagree. I think the vast majority of the messages in this thread really are about the price itself.


Of course, then there are the posts that are just here to bicker, without any real contribution to the thread.


----------



## bicker

Then, of course, are the personal attacks. I forgot about those.


----------



## timckelley

We've got an assortment of things going on here.


----------



## HDTiVo

Gai-jin said:


> Of course, then there are the posts that are just here to bicker, without any real contribution to the thread.


Its such a waste of time and energy dealing with those people and a disservice to folks looking for info.

But that's the world.


----------



## bicker

timckelley said:


> We've got an assortment of things going on here.


We sure do.


----------



## MichaelK

been busy for a bit and lost track.

Can someone tell me what happens to MSD IF I have a lifetime box and 2 boxes already on MSD at $6.95. I know if nothing changes it stays the same- but what if I want to ADD another s3? I see I can get a $6 discount off the monthly rate so if I could somehow prepay the 3 year rate I could get it to be 6.95. But it's not clear to me that they made a way for me to prepay a box with MSD? So would I need to go month to month with the new box and therfore bay 19.95- 6 = 13.95/month for an additional box?

Is there a way to prepay for multiple boxes yet?


----------



## 1283

If you want the MSD rate, you have to pay monthly. For $6.95, you have to commit to 3 years of service.


----------



## MichaelK

c3 said:


> If you want the MSD rate, you have to pay monthly. For $6.95, you have to commit to 3 years of service.


As I thought.

That's messed up.

I have no problem prepaying for 3 years- but at least allow it.

I could buy a new box, open another account and pay a buck less a month then the 13.95 adding a box would see to get me by adding it to my account. But then if they ever get MRV working for s3's i'd be out of luck.


----------



## 1283

I have no idea what you're talking about. You want to open up another account to pay *more*?


----------



## MichaelK

Nope I'm trying to pay the least amount.

I currently have lifetime on one box and 2 boxes with MSD at 6.95.

If I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong- since it makes no sense to me under my current understanding)

1) If I add another box with MSD- I have to pay month to month which currently is 19.95 and I will get a 6 dollar discount for MSD for a monthly cost of 13.95. Since I can NOT prepay for the new MSD box and have to use month to month at the then current price of 19.95.

2) if I COULD (which isn't allowed) prepay msd then I could get the 3 year prepay at 12.95 a month minus the 6 dollar savings and get it at the current 6.95 a box.

3) If i open a new account and prepay for 3 years then the monthly cost is 12.95 

So am I not understanding 1, 2, and 3 above?

Since 2 appears impoossible it looks like 3 is a dollar less then #1

LIGHBULB moment below? *************

OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?


----------



## dswallow

MichaelK said:


> OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?


The multi-service discount only applies to monthly payments, not to any prepaid rates. So the only way to get the $6.95 rate is to commit to 3 years of service on the unit and pay monthly the $12.95 less the $6.00 discount. Prepaying for 3 years would be $299 or about $8.31 a month. The best price comes from paying monthly when the multi-service discount applies.


----------



## 1283

These are the MSD rates:

1-year: $19.95 - $6 = $13.95
2-year: $14.95 - $6 = $8.95
3-year: $12.95 - $6 = $6.95


----------



## ChuckyBox

MichaelK said:


> OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?


Since no one will answer you directly: Yes, that is what he is saying.

You just have to sign up for 3 years. You will pay $6.95/month. But you pay that every month, rather than prepaying.


----------



## MichaelK

ChuckyBox said:


> Since no one will answer you directly: Yes, that is what he is saying.
> 
> You just have to sign up for 3 years. You will pay $6.95/month. But you pay that every month, rather than prepaying.


thanks!

Well then- that's not so bad at all. Frankly it's even better for my wallet to take 3 years to pay it.


----------



## kupe

Wow- this is what I get for being away from the Tivo Forums for a couple months! 

Okay- here's my question. We currently have a S2 ST with lifetime service. We have a second S2 ST on the $6.95/month MSD. This week we bought a new S2 DT, not yet activated. It sounds like if and when I activate the new unit, I will get a $6/month MSD discount. But what I'm not clear on is what "base rate" is used when the qualifying subscription is a Lifetime unit. In other words, $6/month off which rate?

And here's the scary part. I really only need 2 Tivos. I was thinking of transferring the Lifetime to the new S2 DT and selling one of the S2 ST units. It sounds to me like all heck will break loose with my contract when I do that though. I'm trying to figure out what my new rates would be, but I'm stumped!

I even considered that it might be best to leave the ST Lifetime unit assigned as it is and just stick it in the attic since that's the one I'd be replacing with the DT. But then I read that a Lifetime unit has to "phone home" at least once every six months to act as the qualifying unit for MSD. 

And add to the equation that any rebates I'd get on the new DT are forefeited if the unit is activated as a Transfer and not an Additional Activation.

Thoughts anyone on doing the least damage to my longstanding account? 

Thanks!

Kupe


----------



## dswallow

kupe said:


> Wow- this is what I get for being away from the Tivo Forums for a couple months!
> 
> Okay- here's my question. We currently have a S2 ST with lifetime service. We have a second S2 ST on the $6.95/month MSD. This week we bought a new S2 DT, not yet activated. It sounds like if and when I activate the new unit, I will get a $6/month MSD discount. But what I'm not clear on is what "base rate" is used when the qualifying subscription is a Lifetime unit. In other words, $6/month off which rate?
> 
> And here's the scary part. I really only need 2 Tivos. I was thinking of transferring the Lifetime to the new S2 DT and selling one of the S2 ST units. It sounds to me like all heck will break loose with my contract when I do that though. I'm trying to figure out what my new rates would be, but I'm stumped!
> 
> I even considered that it might be best to leave the ST Lifetime unit assigned as it is and just stick it in the attic since that's the one I'd be replacing with the DT. But then I read that a Lifetime unit has to "phone home" at least once every six months to act as the qualifying unit for MSD.
> 
> And add to the equation that any rebates I'd get on the new DT are forefeited if the unit is activated as a Transfer and not an Additional Activation.
> 
> Thoughts anyone on doing the least damage to my longstanding account?


Unless you have a series 1 with lifetime that still qualifies for a one-time transfer, you cannot transfer lifetime to a Series 2 DT unit, only to a Series 3 unit, and even then only for units bought on or before 12/31/2006.

If you bought your Series 2 DT unit from a retailer, it could be a multi-service discount unit, which saves you $6 off the monthly rate for service; you'll need to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and will pay the respective rate less $6/month. If you use a prepaid plan, there;s no multi-service discount. If you bought the unit from TiVo.com, it doesn't qualify for a multi-service discount until after the initial commitment period.


----------



## 1283

Other than special circumstances and promotions, you cannot transfer lifetime.

MSD rate is based on the length of commitment. Take the regular monthly rate and subtract $6. For example, to get the MSD $6.95/month, you have to commit to 3 years of service.


----------



## kupe

c3 said:


> Other than special circumstances and promotions, you cannot transfer lifetime.


Hey guys-

I'm looking at this page:
http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=5BE89763-9AF4-4C17-853C-5DD1B7E36952

It says:
You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:
You activated the DVR less than 30 days ago. 
The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer. 
The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number.

If any of these conditions apply, you can transfer Product Lifetime Service through Manage My Account (following the instructions above), or by contacting Customer Support.

It doesnt' say anything about S1 or S2 or S3 units. It seems I would qualify under the first item: Unit activated in the past 30 days (I'm assuming they are talking about the new unit, not the old one. Or not?)

Kupe


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## timckelley

kupe said:


> (I'm assuming they are talking about the new unit, not the old one. Or not?)
> 
> Kupe


I bet they're talking about the old unit, but somebody else will confirm this I'm sure. If what you say were true, there wouldn't be nearly as much complaining going on around here.

I just read your link though, and it does sound ambiguous. In fact, if I were a newbie that didn't know better, I'd say that the 'DVR' is in fact refering to the new one, since the new one is the 'DVR' last referenced with the word 'DVR' that was used in that article. Since I suspect they meant the old one and not the new one, I really think they need to clarify the wording on that link. (IOW, they need to reword it much more clearly than it's currently worded.) I can see how people could be misled.


----------



## kupe

timckelley said:


> I bet they're talking about the old unit, but somebody else will confirm this I'm sure. If what you say were true, there wouldn't be nearly as much complaining going on around here.


Tim-

It certainly isn't clear in the way it is written, but alas I'm afraid you are right. My lifetime service won't transfer.

I really am inclined to just return the new S2 DT. It sounds like messing up the status quo of my existing contract with its Lifetime S2 and the grandfathered $6.95/month S2 just isn't worth it. Man, I sure hope Tivo didn't bet the house on this new pricing.

Kupe


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## timckelley

How about you just stop using your current monthly S2 and replace it with the new DT S2. Your monthly cost would be the same as it is now (one lifetime + one monthly) (assuming you sign up for 3 years on the DT S2.)


----------



## ah577

Hopefully someone is able to help me, because I am very confused tonight. I currently have two Series2 boxes that I have had for the last three years. I pay 12.95/6.95 each month on the boxes. I have not paid much attention to the new prices until tonight because they have not had anything to do with me at this point.

Tonight I was looking into buying a Dual Tuner box to REPLACE one of the single tuner boxes and saw the packages offered on tivo.com. I also saw that Amazon has the dual tuner with the rebate available (and I have an amazon gift certificate so that would be a good deal for me)

My question is this: If I buy from Amazon, do I still have to purchase one of the contracts or can I activate it and continue to pay 12.95/6.95 like I am currently paying. The person I spoke to at tivo seemed as confused about the price structure as I was and when I mentioned buying through amazon told me that they are only available at tivo.com??!!?? That is when I knew I would get better information here.

Sorry for the long post. I have looked all through this thread but did not find the answer and the FAQ did not seem to answer this.


----------



## MichaelK

you can keep paying 12.95/6.95

You will need to agree to keep the new box active for 3 years though.


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## Einselen

ah577 said:


> My question is this: If I buy from Amazon, do I still have to purchase one of the contracts or can I activate it and continue to pay 12.95/6.95 like I am currently paying. The person I spoke to at tivo seemed as confused about the price structure as I was and when I mentioned buying through amazon told me that they are only available at tivo.com??!!?? That is when I knew I would get better information here.


You can either get a new contract on the box or you can forfeit the rebate ($180) and have the service from one of your current boxes be transfered to the new box.

I know you said you have an Amazon gift certificate but you may want to use that for something else (need Tivo wireless adapters?) and purchase the DT from Tivo, get a 3 year prepaid on it (making it essentially 8.31/month) and dropping your 12.95 box to 6.95/month.


----------



## ah577

Einselen said:


> I know you said you have an Amazon gift certificate but you may want to use that for something else (need Tivo wireless adapters?) and purchase the DT from Tivo, get a 3 year prepaid on it (making it essentially 8.31/month) and dropping your 12.95 box to 6.95/month.


I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)


----------



## timckelley

ah577 said:


> I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)


I think so. It sounds like he's saying the new DT could be your qualifying box allowing the other box to be $6.95. Plus the DT would only cost $8.31 per month, and IIUC, the DT would be free (no up-front cost).


----------



## ChuckyBox

ah577 said:


> I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)


The boxes you get through the bundles at tivo.com are "qualifying" boxes for MSD, but they themselves are not "eligible" for MSD. It does not matter if you pay monthly or prepay.

So go ahead and get the new box any way you want (online or retail), because your other box(es) will continue at the MSD rate.

On your new box you can choose any of the payment plans you want. If you pick the 3-year prepay, that comes to only $8.31 per month, so you'll actually end up paying less than you are now (though you could also do this for your current $12.95/month box).


----------



## Einselen

ah577 said:


> I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)


Sorry I forgot about replacing. After thinking about it if you have have enough money upfront I would buy the box from amazon, apply your gift certificate, mail in the rebate and for service I would do 3 yrs prepaid. You will then essentially be paying $8.31/month on the the new DT and $6.95/month on whatever old box you keep.


----------



## timckelley

Einselen said:


> Sorry I forgot about replacing. After thinking about it if you have have enough money upfront I would buy the box from amazon, apply your gift certificate, mail in the rebate and for service I would do 3 yrs prepaid. You will then essentially be paying $8.31/month on the the new DT and $6.95/month on whatever old box you keep.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.


----------



## GoHokies!

timckelley said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.


70 bucks. The single tuner is free.


----------



## dswallow

timckelley said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.


It's the same price from tivo.com as the after-rebate cost from a retailer, but going through Amazon lets him use his Amazon gift certificate. Considering the extra amount of money required up front to buy the unit from a retailer and the likely extended delay in receiving a rebate, I'd suggest using the gift certificate for something else and get the TiVo from tivo.com.


----------



## ah577

Thanks for all the responses, they have been a big help.



dswallow said:


> It's the same price from tivo.com as the after-rebate cost from a retailer, but going through Amazon lets him use his Amazon gift certificate.


Right now the tivo website is listing the dual tuner as $70.00 and Amazon has it on sale at $50.00 after rebate. That is another reason I was thinking of going through amazon for the purchase.


----------



## Sandlapper

This thread made my head hurt.


----------



## timckelley

Sandlapper said:


> This thread made my head hurt.


Perhaps that wouldn't have happened if TiVo had made a simpler pricing structure.


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## 1283

timckelley said:


> a simpler pricing structure.


like a simpler income tax code?


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## timckelley

c3 said:


> like a simpler income tax code?


That would also be a welcome relief.


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## JohnnyO

I'm one of the DirecTivo users who is unhappy DTV's new DVRs are nonTivo units, so I'm investigating my options.

Comcast is the local cable provider. I get my high-speed Internet from them, and before 2002, when I switched to DTV, got my TV through them.

It seems that for the channels I want, I would need the following:
Digital Silver with HBO for $80.99/mo
HD Service for $5.00/mo
Cablecards (2) for $1.50/month

I currently have two DirectTV Series 2 boxes. I'm thinking of getting one Series 3 Tivo, and one a Dual Tuner Series 2(unless the hassles of trying to actually record from the DT box drives me to a second Series 3).

If I understand correctly, my Tivo S3 purchase options are in the $600-$800 range, and the dual tuner Series 2 is about $50 after rebate.

Now -- the big question -- monthly fees. From the Tivo Web site it seems the cheapest way to go is the three year pre-paid (for the two-year price) of $600.00 ($8.33/month * two subs)

That monthly fee (which would be $16.67, I think) just "feels" high after paying $5.99/month DVR Service fee plus $4.99/month second receiver fee to DirecTV.

Anyway -- I'm just trying to understand my options. I figure I'll take a few months to digest things before pulling the HD trigger to start the ball rolling.

Thanks,

John


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## dswallow

John, you could put the first unit on a 3-year prepaid plan for roughly $8.31 a month, then all other units would qualify for the multi-service discount which would make them $6.95/month each with a 3-year commitment. The only "catch" is you need to buy everything but the first unit from a local retailer rather than tivo.com, but since you want at least one series 3, that's no big deal since the local retailer prices on the series 3 are better than tivo.com anyway.

Not only is that cheaper, but it doesn't require money up front on anything but the first unit.


----------



## JohnnyO

dswallow said:


> Not only is that cheaper, but it doesn't require money up front on anything but the first unit.


Thanks Doug!


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## Phantom Gremlin

Sandlapper said:


> This thread made my head hurt.


I grew up in the '60s. I finally figured out what this pricing fiasco reminds me of. (from wikipedia):

_The rules are intentionally very complex. Each player gets six cards, except for the player on the dealer's right, who gets seven. The second card is turned up, except on Tuesdays. Kirk dealt the henchman two jacks, which are a "half-fizzbin." When the henchman said he needs another jack, Kirk warned that a third jack is a "shralk" and is grounds for disqualification. With two jacks, one wants a king and a deuce, except at night, when one wants a queen and a four.

At this point, Kirk dealt a third jack, but to keep the ruse going, he ignored the disqualification rule he had just made up. He explained that, had a king been dealt instead of a jack, the player would get another card, except when it's dark, in which case he'd have to give it back. The top hand is a "royal fizzbin," but the odds of getting one are "astronomical": when Kirk asked Spock what the odds are, Spock truthfully replied that he had never computed them.

Kirk called the last card a "kronk" and then purposely dealt a card such that it fell on the floor. As the henchman being taught reached down, Kirk delivered a blow to his neck, and Spock nerve-pinched the other guard, allowing the three to escape._

Don't we all wish we could escape from this pricing lunacy? I find it quite interesting that TivoPony himself has escaped from the thread!


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## TiVo Troll

Phantom Gremlin said:


> ...I finally figured out what this pricing fiasco reminds me of...
> 
> Don't we all wish we could escape from this pricing lunacy? I find it quite interesting that TivoPony himself has escaped from the thread!


TiVo has one of the most convoluted pricing policies of any consumer product.

If you want a TV "service" which couples a DVR with a search engine for totally automated time-delayed TV watching, by all means buy it!

But if a DVR with just an onscreen program guide fulfills your needs, cable company TV recorders are MUCH cheaper and require no service commitments or maintenance worries of any kind. Comcast just increased the monthly rent for its dual tuner hi-def recorder by $2 to $11.95 monthly. It's CHEAP!

(BTW, Comcast's box ain't bad and even has a (less ambitious than TiVo's) search engine. Their MS based dual tuner hi-def recorder is very different from TiVo's Series 3 but both are fun to use. One costs $12.00 a month and the other $1200 (with "cheap" Lifetime TiVo Service, which will soon become unavailable.)

TiVo Inc. hasn't been able to turn a profit since its 1997 founding and now TiVo is the only remaining standalone DVR. TiVo's pricing is way too convoluted and may now be too high to succeed as a standalone.


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## 1283

TiVo Troll said:


> But if a DVR with just an onscreen program guide fulfills your needs, cable company TV recorders are MUCH cheaper and require no service commitments or maintenance worries of any kind. Comcast just increased the monthly rent for its dual tuner hi-def recorder by $2 to $11.95 monthly. It's CHEAP!


I don't call $76/month cheap. That's how much I would have to pay Comcast to get the DVR. With S3, I pay Comcast just $17/month for limited basic and CableCards.


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## bicker

I'm confused... why would you need CableCARDs for limited basic?


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## 1283

bicker said:


> I'm confused... why would you need CableCARDs for limited basic?


for TiVo guide data of local digital (HD and SD) channels


----------



## bicker

Yes, of course.


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## DonWidmore

nirisahn said:


> Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


My long distance bills are probably 1/10th of what they were 10 years ago. My internet service costs were $50 for two dial up accounts (including the cost of the second line) in 1994 and they're $50 for a wifi network in 2006. I certainly hope that Tivo will lower their prices in 3 years and I expect if they don't or don't increase the service options they're going to have trouble cracking a larger market.

Don


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## TiVo Troll

c3 said:


> I don't call $76/month cheap. That's how much I would have to pay Comcast to get the DVR. With S3, I pay Comcast just $17/month for limited basic and CableCards.


You're absolutely right.

How much does Comcast charge you for CableCards and how much was the installation?

I paid $16 for each of two installs and nothing for the CableCards, although Comcast's new ratechart says they'll charge $1.50 extra for dual TiVoCards.

Actually Comcast is probably the cheapest provider for the level of service we have ($80.24 for Digital Silver + 11.95 for the DCT6412). We get 4 digital outlets at no charge, 2 cable boxes (one the 6412 DVR) for $11.95, and 3 CableCards (for the S3 and a Sony single tuner HD DVR) for (as yet) no extra charge.

After the recent rate increase I checked Dish and was shocked at their price for approximately the same level of service.

Yeah, I probably should just settle in with a good set of rabbit ears!


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## 1283

TiVo Troll said:


> How much does Comcast charge you for CableCards and how much was the installation?


2 CableCards for $1.50/month (included in my $17/month figure). Installation was about $16.


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## retnuh47591

I have been reading this thread and switching back to TiVo's site for 45 minutes and still can't figure out what exactly the best thing for me to do is. Maybe you smart folks can tell me. I currently have an 80 hour (retail) single tuner box with monthly on it with a contract that ends in February. It looks like I should be able to stay on the $12.95 a month I am paying now with no trouble after the contract runs out. I have been thinking about getting a 180 hour DT unit though and was counting on the MSD to keep my other box. With that out the window and without the means or the want to prepay for a long time, I am not sure what to do. It looks like I can get a DT box at full retail and not be eligible for a rebate but can sub it to replace my current box and keep paying $12.95. 
Or I could keep both boxes, but what would be the cost for the single tuner one after adding my DT? No MSD probably so that doesn't make sense. But I would get the rebate on the new box this way. Would it be better to buy from TiVo or retail? 
I am pretty confused about all this and disappointed that it looks like the MSD I was thinking of when I bought the original box is gone.
I forgot to add that I am already paying $80 a month for Charter cable and two digital boxes.
Thanks for any help!

Hunter


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## 1283

MSD is still $6.95/month, with 3-year contract.


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## dswallow

retnuh47591 said:


> I have been reading this thread and switching back to TiVo's site for 45 minutes and still can't figure out what exactly the best thing for me to do is. Maybe you smart folks can tell me. I currently have an 80 hour (retail) single tuner box with monthly on it with a contract that ends in February. It looks like I should be able to stay on the $12.95 a month I am paying now with no trouble after the contract runs out. I have been thinking about getting a 180 hour DT unit though and was counting on the MSD to keep my other box. With that out the window and without the means or the want to prepay for a long time, I am not sure what to do. It looks like I can get a DT box at full retail and not be eligible for a rebate but can sub it to replace my current box and keep paying $12.95.
> Or I could keep both boxes, but what would be the cost for the single tuner one after adding my DT? No MSD probably so that doesn't make sense. But I would get the rebate on the new box this way. Would it be better to buy from TiVo or retail?
> I am pretty confused about all this and disappointed that it looks like the MSD I was thinking of when I bought the original box is gone.
> I forgot to add that I am already paying $80 a month for Charter cable and two digital boxes.


Your current unit is a qualifying unit for the multi-service discount. It's also grandfathered in that you can continue to pay the monthly rate of $12.95 for service unless and until you make any change affecting billing of this receiver on your account.

If you buy a unit at retail, you ARE ELIGIBLE for the rebate. And the unit IS ELIGIBLE for the multi-service discount. You would of course have to fork over the purchase price and wait a month or two for the rebate.

The multi-service discount only applies to monthly paid plans, not prepaid plans. So as long as you're willing to make a 3-year commitment, you can get the $6.95/month rate, billed monthly, for the new receiver. So you'd continue paying $12.95/mo on your existing unit and pay $6.95/mo on your new unit, or a total of $19.90/month. You'd have to come up with about $260 up front, but you'd get $180 of it back as a rebate in a few months.

If you want to buy the unit from tivo.com, you have to buy it as part of a package. That means either buying a prepaid plan, or paying monthly a rate dependant upon the length of your commitment. Neither method is eligible for the multi-service discount. But the unit purchased this way can be a qualifying unit for the multiservice discount.

So you could buy the 180-hour dual tuner unit from TiVo.com and either a prepaid plan at $199 for 1 year or $299 for 3 years, or commit to monthly paymentzs of $19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/mo for 2 years or $12.95/mo for 3 years. Your existing unit would then be eligible for the multi-unit discount. You could, as an example, prepay for 3 years at $299 and pay tivo.com the $69 for a 180-hour dual tuner unit, then commit to 3 years of service on your existing unit, under the multi-service discount. You'd be paying $368 up front and $6.95/month for 3 years and would have 3 years of service on both units. Effectively this is like $69 up front plus $8.31+$6.95 or $15.26/month.


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## ChuckyBox

Since you don't want to prepay for service (if I understand you correctly), your best option is to get your new box from tivo.com -- it will be $69. If you commit for three years, you'll pay $12.95/month, or a bit more for shorter commitments. Your current box will drop to $6.95 automatically at the end of the commitment term, and remain on month to month service.

Doing it this way lets you drop the older, single-tuner box if you decide you don't need it anymore.


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## retnuh47591

Ok, that is better than what I thought, although TiVo.com says it would be $169 instead of $69 for the 180 hour DT box. You guys have explained it a lot clearer than what I had figured out and how TiVo had explained it, especially the MSD. Kinda funny that an intelligent, tech savvy person (IMHO) like me has to go to a separate forum and have people who are not associated with TiVo, other than they love it, explain it so that he can understand it!
Do I need to do this before my current contract runs out or does it make any difference? Looks like the monthly subscribers have come out on top of the new changes. That seems backwards but I'll take it.
Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out.


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## ChuckyBox

You are right, it is $169 for the 180 hour box -- I was thinking about the 80-hour box.

The MSD situation has gotten more complicated, that is for sure. It is because it combines people with old plans and new plans, either of which is fairly simple on its own.

It shouldn't matter when you do it. When the contract expires, you should go month-to-month at the $12.95 rate, and if you add an "MSD qualifying" box (i.e., any box on which you are paying the full (i.e., non-MSD) subscription price), the $12.95 on your old box should drop to $6.95. So if you do it right away, you might have a month or two of overlap where you are paying full price on both boxes.


----------



## arkitect75

Ok, I have been reading the forums tonight (guess I should have started yesterday). I've been debating upgrading my cable and Tivo. My current setup is:


Sony HD TV
Comcast BASIC Cable ($12.95.month)
TiVo Series 2 single tuner ($12.95/month, one year commitment just ended)

I was trying to determine if I should go to digital cable or not (I've ultimately decided that I don't need to pay $60+/month for digital). The wife and I decided to "swap" out our single tuner for an 80 hr dual tuner. I also had a 12% off coupon @ Best Buy that was ending and decided to use it on the DT. Before I bought the DT, I called Tivo Customer Support to ask if I could buy the DT box and get the rebate, as well as transfer the service to the DT box (to keep me at $12.95/month). The rep told me that all would be good, so I got up today and ventured out to Best Buy, bought the DT box, came home and called to activate/transfer. As you can guess, they told me that I can have one or the other. 
I've had my first TiVo for a little more than a year and I'm already wanting to upgrade, so based on that premise, I do not want to sign up for a long term commitment (the 3 yr @ $12.95). I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.
I haven't taken the DT out of the box yet, and I'm still contemplating returning it. As of now though, I'm leaning towards transferring the account to keep my $12.95 fee, and paying $120 for the DT (I had gift cards from the holidays).

Any other suggestions?

thanks ahead of time


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## ChuckyBox

arkitect75 said:


> I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.


TiVo has raised their prices for people who are unwilling to commit for a term long enough for the company to recoup their investment in the hardware. Is that what you are upset about?

You are just finishing a year of service on one discounted box, and now you are looking to get an $180 discount on a new box. A year at $12.95 is only $155. How do you expect TiVo to keep doing that for you every year? They need to know they are going to get their money back. Without a longer commitment or higher payments, the company loses money on customers like you. And hardware is only part of the expense -- it costs them money to provide the service, pay credit card fees, run the company, etc.

You have more options that most people -- you can get discounted hardware and pick a service plan that fits your needs, or you can forgo the hardware discount and keep paying $12.95 on a month-to-month basis.


----------



## dswallow

arkitect75 said:


> Ok, I have been reading the forums tonight (guess I should have started yesterday). I've been debating upgrading my cable and Tivo. My current setup is:
> 
> 
> Sony HD TV
> Comcast BASIC Cable ($12.95.month)
> TiVo Series 2 single tuner ($12.95/month, one year commitment just ended)
> 
> I was trying to determine if I should go to digital cable or not (I've ultimately decided that I don't need to pay $60+/month for digital). The wife and I decided to "swap" out our single tuner for an 80 hr dual tuner. I also had a 12% off coupon @ Best Buy that was ending and decided to use it on the DT. Before I bought the DT, I called Tivo Customer Support to ask if I could buy the DT box and get the rebate, as well as transfer the service to the DT box (to keep me at $12.95/month). The rep told me that all would be good, so I got up today and ventured out to Best Buy, bought the DT box, came home and called to activate/transfer. As you can guess, they told me that I can have one or the other.
> I've had my first TiVo for a little more than a year and I'm already wanting to upgrade, so based on that premise, I do not want to sign up for a long term commitment (the 3 yr @ $12.95). I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.
> I haven't taken the DT out of the box yet, and I'm still contemplating returning it. As of now though, I'm leaning towards transferring the account to keep my $12.95 fee, and paying $120 for the DT (I had gift cards from the holidays).
> 
> Any other suggestions?
> 
> thanks ahead of time


I agree with everything you say.

But if you crunch the numbers, pay the $299 for 3 years of service. Don't think of it as a 3 year commitment. Do it like this: $299/$12.95 = 23.08. Think of it as a free year after effectively paying $12.95 a month for almost 2 years. Or do it like this: $299/$19.95 = 14.98. Think of it as a free 1 1/2 years after $19.95 for 1 1/2 years. And the bonus is your existing unit could be kept on your account and would drop to $6.95/month.

If coming up with $299 up front just isn't possible for you, get the rebate on the unit and add the unit to your account with a 3-year commitment but keep your existing unit at $12.95/month. The new unit will qualify for the multi-unit discount and with a 3-year commitment that'll be just $6.95 per month. So you'll be paying $19.90/month total for both receivers.


----------



## arkitect75

ChuckyBox said:


> TiVo has raised their prices for people who are unwilling to commit for a term long enough for the company to recoup their investment in the hardware. Is that what you are upset about?
> 
> You are just finishing a year of service on one discounted box, and now you are looking to get an $180 discount on a new box. A year at $12.95 is only $155. How do you expect TiVo to keep doing that for you every year? They need to know they are going to get their money back. Without a longer commitment or higher payments, the company loses money on customers like you. And hardware is only part of the expense -- it costs them money to provide the service, pay credit card fees, run the company, etc.
> 
> You have more options that most people -- you can get discounted hardware and pick a service plan that fits your needs, or you can forgo the hardware discount and keep paying $12.95 on a month-to-month basis.


We all know that these boxes are pretty cheap to MASS PRODUCE. 
Phone companies survive by getting NEW customers in all the time, and allowing established ones to get various benefits of staying around. 
BTW, are you getting kickbacks from TiVo? Do you work for them? If I go for the 3 yr commitment, do you get a better bonus? Seriously, as a USER you'd think that you'd be on the side of the consumer, rather than trying to back the corporation.

good luck to you Mr. Ramsay


----------



## DonWidmore

dswallow said:


> I agree with everything you say.
> 
> But if you crunch the numbers, pay the $299 for 3 years of service. Don't think of it as a 3 year commitment. Do it like this: $299/$12.95 = 23.08. Think of it as a free year after effectively paying $12.95 a month for almost 2 years. Or do it like this: $299/$19.95 = 14.98. Think of it as a free 1 1/2 years after $19.95 for 1 1/2 years. And the bonus is your existing unit could be kept on your account and would drop to $6.95/month.
> 
> If coming up with $299 up front just isn't possible for you, get the rebate on the unit and add the unit to your account with a 3-year commitment but keep your existing unit at $12.95/month. The new unit will qualify for the multi-unit discount and with a 3-year commitment that'll be just $6.95 per month. So you'll be paying $19.90/month total for both receivers.


I looked at it as my 180 hour unit and a 3 year committment = $468 divided by 36 months = $13 per month exactly. It would have been $10.25 per month ($368) with the smaller box.

I happened to drop two dvds off my netflix subscription, which just about equalled $13 per month, so there you go. I miss 8 movies, but get to watch the late night shows again.

Don


----------



## ChuckyBox

arkitect75 said:


> We all know that these boxes are pretty cheap to MASS PRODUCE.


We may all "know" that, but some of us have actually looked at TiVo's financial statements. The subscriber acquisition cost this year is about $260. It costs around $2/month to provide the service, so on a $12.95 sub, it takes about 24 months just to break even.



> Seriously, as a USER you'd think that you'd be on the side of the consumer, rather than trying to back the corporation.


I'm on the side of reality. TiVo wouldn't have made these policies (which, no doubt, cost them customers) without a business case for doing so. And we, the consumers, don't benefit from TiVo going out of business because of bad management.



> good luck to you Mr. Ramsay


There is no need to insult me like that.


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## bicker

ChuckyBox said:


> I'm on the side of reality.


This is really an important point. There is a lot of discussion about what people want and what people feel and what people hope for, but reality is what really matters.


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## bmgoodman

ChuckyBox said:


> The subscriber acquisition cost this year is about $260.


Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?

It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.


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## killzone

bmgoodman said:


> Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?
> 
> It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.


Not to mention the cost should be much, much lower when dealing with an existing customer that is either buying an additional product or is swapping hardware.


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## CrispyCritter

bmgoodman said:


> Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?


A large portion of the $260 is the hardware subsidy present on all models except the S3. It seems to cost TiVo about $160 to make and deliver an S2 (single tuner, bottom of the line). That's based on looking at costs of hardware sales in the quarterly reports over a number of years. TiVos are produced in low volume (compared to most consumer electronics you buy) and contain custom chips and hardware. They're expensive to make.


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## Stormspace

CrispyCritter said:


> A large portion of the $260 is the hardware subsidy present on all models except the S3. It seems to cost TiVo about $160 to make and deliver an S2 (single tuner, bottom of the line). That's based on looking at costs of hardware sales in the quarterly reports over a number of years. TiVos are produced in low volume (compared to most consumer electronics you buy) and contain custom chips and hardware. They're expensive to make.


There should be a break on pricing if the user is supplying his own hardware though, since TiVo isn't subsidizing anything.


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## ashu

Swapping hardware would likely not be a ' customer acquisition' anyway.

And not all people (including former, current or wannabe customers) of ANY brand have to like ALL advertising by said brand. Duh.


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## CrispyCritter

Stormspace said:


> There should be a break on pricing if the user is supplying his own hardware though, since TiVo isn't subsidizing anything.


Yes, I agree the current scheme is not fair to hooking up used TiVos when compared with new TiVos. But the current policy seems to be aimed at getting as many brand new subscribers as possible, and most of them will want to go the new Tivo route.


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## ChuckyBox

bmgoodman said:


> Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?


Yes, though TV commercials are a fairly small fraction of the total. In Q3 SAC was $287 to acquire each of 101K new subscriptions, or about $29 million total. Of that, about $10 million was sales and marketing expense and the rest was loss on hardware, rebates, and other channel sales incentives. The sales and marketing expense includes all fixed costs, personnel, overhead, and options expense, and never drops much below $7 million, so very little of it is likely directed at commercials (though the number will be higher in Q4).

The uselessness or usefulness of the ads needs to be judged on the response the ads generate, not on how we (who have already been converted) feel about them. In any event, TV commercials are not a big contributer to SAC.



> It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.


As with most businesses of this type, the idea is that most of the costs do not scale in direct proportion to total subscribers. But one wonders how efficiently the sales and marketing expense is being used. One can also wonder about R&D and G&A expenses, too, as they seem to rise and gobble up any margin the company generates.


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## ChuckyBox

killzone said:


> Not to mention the cost should be much, much lower when dealing with an existing customer that is either buying an additional product or is swapping hardware.


It is lower, but since hardware subsidy and fixed marketing costs are the lion's share of SAC, the cost of adding a box to an existing sub is not going to be "much, much lower" than adding a new sub.

From the last conference call it sounds like TiVo is looking to change that equation by reducing the hardware subsidy and advertising more.


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## SnakeEyes

I want to buy another S2 but a future S3 purchase is hindering that. I don't want to pay 19.95 a month and I don't want to be locked into a contract for longer to get a cheaper price when I will have turn around and agree to another contract for the S3.


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## 1283

SnakeEyes said:


> I want to buy another S2 but a future S3 purchase is hindering that. I don't want to pay 19.95 a month and I don't want to be locked into a contract for longer to get a cheaper price when I will have turn around and agree to another contract for the S3.


Commitment is for the service, not for the box. You can get a S2 now with 3-year prepay for $299. When you get the S3 later, just change the service to the S3.


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## SnakeEyes

I just asked TiVo customer service and was told it's tied to the box and would have to get another plan for the S3.


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## 1283

The TiVo CSR is *wrong*.


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## SnakeEyes

I just called back and spoke to another rep who said flat out "the plan is tied to the box", regardless of prepay or monthly. These are people in sales.


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## 1283

Another ignorant CSR. I'm 100% sure about this. Multiple TiVo employees (TiVoStephen and TiVoJerry, I think) have confirmed it. There is even a "change service number" function in Manage Your Account, so you don't need to deal with another ignorant CSR.


----------



## dswallow

The plan is tied to the box if you bought the box from TiVo.com because they only sell package deals. If you bought your unit retail (or bought an S3 where there's no package deal), you should be able to move the plan around at will (though probably not to a unit you buy as part of a future package deal).


----------



## SnakeEyes

So if I buy through tivo.com then I am unable to transfer the plan to a S3 later but if I buy it at a store then I can transfer?


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## timckelley

Regardless of whether or not somebody thinks these new rules are simple to understand, just scanning through the Coffee House threads and seeing how many people are confused by the rules, and are still left confused even after talking to the CSRs (in some cases, multiple CSRs, and still confusion remains), I have to say something is wrong with the design of these rules.

I wonder how bombarded the CSRs are as a result of the complexities we're now dealing with. Surely it didn't have to be this complicated.


----------



## 1283

SnakeEyes said:


> So if I buy through tivo.com then I am unable to transfer the plan to a S3 later but if I buy it at a store then I can transfer?


You can buy the S2 from tivo.com or anywhere else. The S3 will have to be purchased from a place other than tivo.com because tivo.com only sells packages. Package just means a box and a service contract. It does not mean the service is tied to the box (other than lifetime, of course).


----------



## dswallow

c3 said:


> You can buy the S2 from tivo.com or anywhere else. The S3 will have to be purchased from a place other than tivo.com because tivo.com only sells packages.


You have S2 and S3 confused.


----------



## 1283

dswallow said:


> You have S2 and S3 confused.


No, I have not. Why?


----------



## juanian

Here's my question - how may people out there get a TiVo, but decide not to keep it? It must be "high", if TiVo decided to go with this complicated pricing scheme to ensure that a purchased TiVo keeps getting used.


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## iceman

I don't get it! 
How could that be? How could anyone get a TiVo and NOT keep it?


----------



## Chew

My tale is just as confusing as the price changes. I hope you can follow so I can find an answer.  

First off, I have a Lifetime Box in addition to the below second or third box information, so Multi-Service is applying. I know everybody is also thinking "transfer the Lifetime"...sorry, no.  

January 16, 2006 I upgraded from TiVo Basic on my Toshiba DVD Recorder to Full at $6.95/month. About three months ago, I picked up a Series 2 and transferred service to that box (leaving the Recorder back to Basic). I got a Series 3 about 4-6 weeks ago and again transferred the service from the Series 2 to the Series 3 (had I known I was getting a Series 3, I would've never gotten the 2). All the monthly charges have been $6.95.

This month I got charged $12.95 (no doubt because it's been a full year).

I'm sorry, I haven't read all 24 pages. But, I did read the TiVo terms and I'm even more confused. Do I need to call to sign-up for a 3 year commitment to bring that price down again? Because a box without a MSD at 3 years would be $4.64/month cheaper.

From what I read, the MSD reduces the monthly rate by $6, so I thought $13.95 would be the price on a monthly contract.


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## 1283

Your Series3 should have stayed at $6.95/month. Are both the lifetime unit and the S3 still calling home (TiVo) from the same location? Is the lifetime unit even calling home at all?


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## enthalpy

c3 said:


> TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723
> 
> Q. Can I transfer an existing monthly service-only contract or bundled service contract to new hardware? Suppose I get a box from retail or my cousin or eBay and want to switch service. Or I buy a shiny new Series3?
> 
> A. Yes. We call this a "Service Number Change" in Manage My Account and you can handle this transaction yourself at any time by going to http://www.tivo.com/manage/


Ahhh
Thanks c3. I read and read and read through these postings and I think I understand. What I wan to do is buy an S3, deactivate my 2 year old S2, using the same monthly fee ($12.95) and without buying a bundle. From several of your posts, and reading tivossteven, I think that is what I can do.

tivo.com sure doesn't help. All they say at 
https://www3.tivo.com/tivo-mma/dvrchange.do
is this:

quote
You can change your TiVo Service Number online if either of these situations apply: 
- You activated your DVR and then exchanged it through your retailer or through the manufacturer and now need to update the TiVo Service Number on your account
- You need to correct the TiVo Service Number that you initially activated
endquote

Well that's not what I'm doing, I haven't exactly exchanged it. I just want to swap the service to the new S3.

I guess I'll try a tivo CSR and see what they say.


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## enthalpy

dswallow said:


> You have S2 and S3 confused.


No, he doesn't. He just happens to be saying tivo.com only sells packages, tivo + yearly service. You can buy a box only at retail, or you can buy a box + service at tivo.com


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## 1283

enthalpy said:


> What I wan to do is buy an S3, deactivate my 2 year old S2, using the same monthly fee ($12.95) and without buying a bundle.


That's very simple, especially that there is no rebate for the S3. Just buy the S3 from a place other than tivo.com and change the TSN online yourself. Your S2 will be deactivated, and the S3 will take over the service at the same monthly rate.


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## cheesybear

This sucks. The pricing structure used to be simple, and the addition of service committments is just BS. The service committment is the main reason why I don't have a cell phone.

I've got an extra Tivo box, that I don't use. My mother in law wanted to try tivo, so I was going to give it to her. I assumed $12.95/mo with no commitment... but now that's no longer so. She's basically paying for a new box, even though I'm giving her my old one. The 30 day trial period isn't good enough, it'll take her longer than that to get the hang of it, and she'd forget to call before the time is up anyway, and then be locked into a contract, where she would have to pay a termination fee, even though I gave her the box in the first place? Sounds like B.S. to me... and $20 a month is not a good deal for month to month service....

I don't mind shelling out some cash for a new box, and then paying a subscription, but this business of bundling the cost of the box, with the monthly fee, and requiring a service commitment is make it hard for me to convince my friends that this is a good deal.


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## bicker

I think I said this earlier in the thread: There might not be an intersection between pricing that is acceptable to the business and pricing that is acceptable to customers. That's life.


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## timckelley

bicker said:


> I think I said this earlier in the thread: There might not be an intersection between pricing that is acceptable to the business and pricing that is acceptable to customers. That's life.


In that situation, TiVo Corp is done for.


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## bicker

Ayup.


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## retnuh47591

I have been searching around and have not seen what will happen to the rebate after the 2/17 deadline. Will it go away? I am contemplating buying a DT box but would like to just pay the $12.95 a month with a year contract like my ST box now. I am afraid though of missing out on the deal by not buying before the 17th. Anyone know?

Thanks,

Hunter


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## 1283

Rebate amount will drop after 2/17. The only deal for $12.95/1-year contract is through the refurbished DT web special, which is not valid for the rebate anyway.


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## retnuh47591

Oh, I thought the new ones were going to go down to $12.95/ 1 year contract too. I really don't want to lock in for 3 years as my job may or may not be here after this year depending on how our elections go. Looks like I have a decision to make.


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## michael new

So this thread is getting way too long,my question is probably answered but I couldn't find it.

I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?

Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?


----------



## 1283

michael new said:


> I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?


Depends on the length of commitment. MSD rate is $6 less than the regular monthly rate.



michael new said:


> Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?


Yes. The rebate amount will decrease on 2/18.


----------



## michael new

c3 said:


> Depends on the length of commitment. MSD rate is $6 less than the regular monthly rate.
> 
> Yes. The rebate amount will decrease on 2/18.


What do you mean length of commitment?

What do you mean decrease. Id be buying the new Tivo in March.


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## 1283

Go to www.tivo.com to look at the regular monthly price plans.

Rebate will drop from the current $180 to $150, if I remember correctly.


----------



## dswallow

michael new said:


> So this thread is getting way too long,my question is probably answered but I couldn't find it.
> 
> I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?
> 
> Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?


1) To qualify for the MSD pricing, which is the least expensive, you have to buy the unit from a retailer, not from tivo.com. Tivo.com only sells package bundles.

2) Series 2 DT units you buy from a retailer are eligible for a rebate (though the specific amount apparently is being reduced in the near future, as others mentioned).

3) The MSD pricing is only applicable to monthly payment plans, not to prepaid plans. You have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and as long as you meet MSD requirements, you receive a $6 per month discount from the regular rates ($19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/month for 2 years, $12.95/month for 3 years). So that'd be $13.95/mo for 1 year, $8.95/mo for 2 years or $6.95/mo for 3 years.


----------



## timckelley

dswallow said:


> 3) The MSD pricing is only applicable to monthly payment plans, not to prepaid plans. You have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and as long as you meet MSD requirements, you receive a $6 per month discount from the regular rates ($19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/month for 2 years, $12.95/month for 3 years). So that'd be $13.95/mo for 1 year, $8.95/mo for 2 years or $6.95/mo for 3 years.


And I think the lowest monthly rate you can pay under the prepaid plan, IIRC, is $299 for 3 years. So if you want the least $/month, it's best to sign up for 3 years, MSD, *not* prepaid, and get your service for $6.95/month.


----------



## michael new

so what if I give my Tivo to a relative paying I beleive 12.99 and transfer the service to the new Tivo it will be 6.99 right?

And 6.99 for her?

Actually I just looked at her account and this is what it says The TiVo Service Only 3 Year, Monthly .


----------



## shippy

Sorry if this has already been asked, but what about this:

I have two S2 (single-tuner) TiVos. If I decide to replace one of them with a new S3 TiVo, will I continue to get my $12.95/mo for one and $6.95 for the other? Is the only way to guarantee the $12.95/mo on the S3 to get the 3 year package? I kinda got the impression that it would be possible to just transfer my $12.95/mo to the new TiVo since I'm not adding a new TiVo, just replacing one, but I wasn't sure how it works.

Thanks.


----------



## ashu

That's my understanding as well - you'd have to call in and request a 'replacement', immediately deactivating the S2 unit and activating the S3.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

ashu said:


> That's my understanding as well - you'd have to call in and request a 'replacement', immediately deactivating the S2 unit and activating the S3.


Or do the switch online at tivo.com


----------



## Jett

I have 2 TiVo's now, a 40 gig S2 and an 80gig Pioneer 810 with burner.
Went to re-activate 3rd box (another 40 gig S2)

Find out i have to pay $10 a month for that one.

I was willing to pay the $6.95 but not be forced into a 3 year commitment for an analog DVR that will be either outdated or dead by then.

TiVo, what are you thinking?

You have lost $84 a year income from me and possibly more if i decide to drop the other 2 and get something else. (Cable company's DVR is reasonable here)

Yeah, i know $84 a year is nothing but if more people like me don't enroll for the same reasons that i didn't enroll it WILL add up to alot of lost revenue for you.

I am truly dissapointed in you for the first time ever.

I have been a TiVo believer for years but now my enthusiasm is waning.


----------



## 1283

Jett said:


> I was willing to pay the $6.95 but not be forced into a 3 year commitment for an analog DVR that will be either outdated or dead by then.


3-year commitment is for the TiVo service, not any hardware. You can get a S3 next day/month/year and continue with the same service.


----------



## AFP1

TiVoPony said:


> Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:
> 
> TiVo Pricing Q&A
> November 10, 2006
> 
> Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
> A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.
> 
> Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
> A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.
> 
> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.
> 
> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.
> 
> Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
> A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.
> 
> Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
> A. While your existing second box is grandfathered at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
> A.	This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
> A.	Weve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Tivo is Rediculous! ( *And No, not just their useless Service Dept!)
I cannot believe that each time I look at the Tivo Website, all the Prices are different! They change Prices more than some change their Underware! It is Crazy!! I receintly purchased a 2nd Unit, an S2 DT Unit. ( I already have a Mostly-Working Humax/ Burner, *another 2 Yr. Life Expectancy Unit!) The Day before, the DT was Priced New at $39.95 with a Service Plan. I called to Order the S2 DT the very next Day, and it was then $30.00 Higher in Price! *Almost Double the Cost in less than 12 Hours!! *Now, the same thing is $99.00! ***BUT, *It was $39.00 just a couple of Months ago, *$69.00 for the past 2 Months, **AND***$39.00 Again just **Yesterday, and now Today it's *$99.00 ***AGAIN, all in just a couple Months, even Days!! A $60.00 Increase in 1 Day! C'Mon!! Almost 3 Times the Price others have Paid for the same thing?? That would make me extremely aggravated! I am Mad enough that I Paid $69.00!! You should have Honored the Price I saw the Day before. I always do with my Company if we change Prices!
Also, are you reducing the Subscription Rates for People who are already Paying Higher Subscription Prices? If not, if I was 1 of those people, I would dump your Service, and let you take me to Court for the Penalty Fee!! (You would never bother! Just Court Fee's will cost you more than the Penalty. We have our own Attorney. )
**Just get it together, and stop doing Business like the Rookies I deal with daily! 
At least they have an excuse, they know nothing!! *What's your excuse??
I have been involved in Sales Marketing for Over 30 Years, I even own the Company, and never have seen any Company do things like you! **Keep it up and you won't last very long! 
*Yea Big Deal, they lowered a couple of Subscription Prices!! They are only making it up with the Machine Increases. *Be careful Tivo, if people ever add up what they actually spend each Month on TV alone, if you raise Subscription Prices anymore, you will lose Business! Plus all the conflict with MSD's, your driving people nuts! Why do we need to Pay for Multi-Service anyway?? Cable, Phone and Satelite does not charge more. Why You?? No other Utility charges more if you have a larger Home, or more Rooms etc., why Tivo?? (Because you get away with it!)
It costs you no more to Supply Service to 10 Units in a Home as only 1! You only bothered to Network things to make things cheaper for your Company! But being you are the only Ball Game in Town, you get away with it! Hopefully in a Year or 2, More Competition will come about, & then you will see things change for the better! 
*Just Think About It. A Person with Basic Cable Pays approx. $55.00 a Month for the Cable, a Min. of $13.00 for Tivo, plus a percentage of the DSL Fee if you want to be precise! So they are basically spending almost $100.00 a Month right now! **And that is just for Basic Cable Service! Add more Programming, and you can hit $200.00 a Month easilly! 
Increase your Prices much, and Tivo will be the 1st to go! Watching TV is getting very expensive. Many people can easilly live W/O Tivo, but only get about 3 Stations if they have no Cable! And what good is Tivo W/O Cable?
You may not realize it, but you are creating more Bad Will than anything with all these Price changes! I'm sorry, but I have never seen any Product More than Double in Price overnight! I had nothing Bad I would ever even bother to write about you, until you Ripped me Off with the Price of my last Purchase! 
For A lousey $30.00, you not only lost me as a Customer in the future, but you know I won't have many good things to say about your Company and it's proceedures from now on! Rebates should be issued to all who have Purchased any Unit and Sub. for More than the Lowest Price you Advertise, if Purchased within the last 3 Months. That would only be Fair to the people Paying more!
If I reduce Prices, *ALL Clients are Reduced!
*Plus, then you go and Sell that silly, Way Overpriced S3, anywhere from $599.00 to $900.00! It all depends on When you look at the Pricing! *Even the Time matters! Do you change Prices every Day, depending on how Yesterday went?? OR, Is it by the Hour? It's not worth anywhere near either Price above, as all that is different is the Tuner and a larger H/D. The HD Tuner can be Purchased seperately for Under $100.00! That Unit should Sell for No more than $299.00, and you would still Earn a nice Profit! But that's the only Unit you Profit a lot on, so I know you will continue to play your Games until more Competition comes around! Right now, you are Profiting a Ton on that Unit, and a lot of people Paid $900.00 for a $599 Unit! ( **Todays Price! Have a look. )
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having Tivo as much as the next Guy. But this is all getting Very Shady and Expensive! And as far as I am concerned, I would never purchase an S3 until the Price is realistic. And all else I have is ready to go for it! But I would never Pay $900.00 for a little better picture on a few Channels.
When they hit the 150 HD Channel Mark as promised, maybe I will then reconsider things, *IF the Price is reduced, **A LOT!! It's not worth $900 for just a few channels, and you probably only watch no more than 1/2 that are available to you! Cable only has about 9 Total! And Satelite is fading away because of all it's problems, so you could lose HD Channels there as well. Plus, Never Pay in Advance! That is the stupidest thing you could ever do!! You never use your own Money if not necessary, as all they do with it is Invest it, and Profit even more on you!
Also, with things changing so much, Who knows what will be around in 3 Years? It may make their Service Agreement Obsolete and Non-Binding. 
The Value of the Dollar will be less in 3 Years, so they Invest all they can get now to Earn even more! Invest it yourself and keep your Money! Maybe even Profit from it like they do if you know how! Better yet, Stop Buying the S3!!
That will make them reduce the Price like nothing else will!!

**TIVO, Start acting like Pros! For a large Company, you Run the Operation like an Internet Newbie! (Are you sure your not Based in a Bedroom somewhere??)


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## AFP1

nirisahn said:


> Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


 I totally agree with Most Businesses, but not totally in this instance. Sure, most Companies raise Prices every now and then. But with Tivo, the Prices are changed almost Daily! Watch the Pricing on Both the Units as well as the Subscriptions. 
I have actually seen the Prices change on the same Day once!
All that creates is Bad Feelings for the people Paying more!
Actually, Just Yesterday the 80 Hr. DT was Selling for *Only $39.00 with a Service Plan, (Just like all other Units)! But now Today, the same Unit is now $99.00! *And it was $69.00 Last Week. Are the people who Paid more being Refunded the difference on both the Units and Subs?? It should be illegal to charge different people different Prices, especially when a Higher Price is Charged to a person who just Bought his the Week before, than the Guy who has been Paying more $$ for the last Year! Kind of like Prejudice!! Prices normally go up. Tivo goes Up and Down so often, I first thought it was a YoYo Company!
But really, they more than Doubled the Unit Price overnight! Other Companies never play with Pricing like they do. They all know it only gets people annoyed if they Paid more just Yesterday, and the Price is much lower Today! Yes, most Stores may do that a couple of times a Year, but not Weekly like Tivo!!
You also need to remember that Tivo is on the Bottom of the "TV Viewing Food Chain"! Sure, we all love them at their current Price, but how would you feel if they raised the Subscription Prices by 5 Times Tomorrow? How about 3
Times?? 
I know that Tivo would be the 1st thing to go! Anyone can live W/O Tivo, but in most areas of the Country, W/O Cable, you only get about 3 Channels. I live near Miami, and only get a couple of Channels clearly using an Antenna. So which do you feel will be done away with 1st to save Money? 
Realistically, *W/O Cable, what good is a Tivo?
Maybe a Price Increase of a Dollar or Two after a couple of Years will go unnoticed, but if they keep playing with Prices like they are now, confusing many people as they go, they will only lose Business! Then just add a couple of competitive Companies, and Tivo will really then need to Tow the Line!
TV Today is a neccessity, as is Cable/Satelite for most viewers. But Tivo is only an Add On, Extra, Nice Toy etc, but are not necessary to Entertain yourself. 
*But for right now, they have you just where they want you, and taking full advantage of every current Subscriber!! Take a close look at the S3. At times, it is being Sold for as much as $899! Anyone that would spend $900 for just a couple of HD Channels is Crazy! **No, Stupid! Maybe when the 150 HD Channel Promise ever gets here, I might purchase an S3, But **Only If the Price is no more than $350!! At $350, Tivo will still Profit a Ton!
All Businesses are created to Profit, but not to Rip People Off!
But, That's what you get when you live in a 1 Horse/Tivo Town!!

**BTW- My Home Phone, Cable, Rent, Cell Phone, Water and even Electric has not gone up in the last 3 Years, as far back as I can see in my Records. So that kind of does away with ALL Companies creating "Regular Increases!" *Except for Tivo!


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## Phantom Gremlin

AFP1, I hope you feel better. Tivocommunity has also been a great place for me to complain about TiVo.

But it really doesn't matter. TiVo has demonstrated time and time again that the behaviors you complain about are just their standard way of doing business. Those behaviors won't change until the top management is replaced or the company goes out of business.

*THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!*

Every time I read one of these complaints (and there have been very many recently) I'm astonished at how TiVo has been able to take the great amount of goodwill they have built up over the years and totally destroy it. To many people TiVo is now *worse* than their local cable company, and that's saying a lot!


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## MsUnderstood

Wow this new pricing plan is crazy!

I have 2 tivos, one with a lifetime and one with mtm @ 6.95.

I called TIVO and first begged that my lifetime be transferred to my new S3 (I know deadline is passed but I was hoping). The guy says no.

Then I say okay lets activate. He tells me I need to sign up for a 3 year commitment for the 6.95 price. I say but my other tivo is month to month for 6.95 and I want that deal.

Oh no he explains, you have to sign up for 3 years. Meanwhile, I click on the website and I could sign up a brand new account for a 3 year commitment prepaid at $299 AND get a year free --so that would be 4 years for $299. *calculator please* for a price of $6.23 / month.

SO a brand new account prepaid for 4 years would cost me $299 but a 3rd tivo in my house will cost me $333 (which actually is a bit misleading because to get that 4th year I'd have to sign up for 6 years for a total of $500.4).

What kind of crazy pricing is this?


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## 1283

No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years.


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## MsUnderstood

c3 said:


> No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years.


Ah okay, so 2 years or 3 years for 299...that is a little more logical (but their website is misleading on that).

Still moving from the old tivo days to the new corporate "sign your life over" is a bit unnerving.


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## ashu

Are you sure that the 4th year is free? I'm amazed there ahsn't been a thread about this - that is an AWESOME deal for 299!


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## timckelley

ashu said:


> Are you sure that the 4th year is free? I'm amazed there ahsn't been a thread about this - that is an AWESOME deal for 299!





c3 said:


> No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years.


.


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## HDTiVo

The 4th year *you  * are free, provided you don't continue the service.


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## ashu

timckelley said:


> .


Funny.

Delayed refresh on a thread page, and responding before checking for further responses in the interim will do that. But pointing it out leads to even more comedic situations like this - with 3 posts dealing with my repost. Joy!



HDTiVo said:


> The 4th year *you  * are free, provided you don't continue the service.


Troll


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## bicker

AFP1 said:


> **TIVO, Start acting like Pros! For a large Company, you Run the Operation like an Internet Newbie! (Are you sure your not Based in a Bedroom somewhere??)


I don't know where you got the idea that TiVo was a large company. TiVo is very firmly a *SMALL* company -- not even a medium-sized business.... just "small".


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## stevereis

I searched the thread for this but did not find an answer (or didn't hit upon the right search terms)...

I transferred my lifetime service from an S2 to an S3 in October 2006 and also got a free year on the S2 as part of the deal. I assumed when the year was up that my S2 would revert to monthly $6.95/mo MSD pricing. I see from the Manage My Account page that my S2 is shown as 1-year, prepay.

Does anyone know or have a guess as to what happens when the year is up. Will I still get $6.95/mo, month-to-month or will I need to re-up for a service contract 1,2,3 years?


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## PrimeRisk

nirisahn said:


> Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


Funny thing, guaranteed pricing is actually the focus of one of Qwest's offerings now. They are offering "price for life" guarantees on DSL products. If you give them a 2 year commitment, they guarantee they won't raise the price....ever.

I am so very glad that I am with D* and the remaining SA TiVos I have are Lifetime. It is very unlikely that I'll ever buy another SA TiVo because I can't get lifetime and I'm unwilling to commit to 3 years of service to get a reasonable price on service. If I could still get $6.95/month service on month to month associated with my lifetime units, it might be a go, but not otherwise.

I'm planning on sticking with D*, my existing TiVos and the HR-20. The HR-20 DVR isn't TiVo, but it is free to me and a S3 would run me roughly $1000 for the next 3 years (purchase plus service).

I hope this new business model works out for TiVo.


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## PrimeRisk

stevereis said:


> I searched the thread for this but did not find an answer (or didn't hit upon the right search terms)...
> 
> I transferred my lifetime service from an S2 to an S3 in October 2006 and also got a free year on the S2 as part of the deal. I assumed when the year was up that my S2 would revert to monthly $6.95/mo MSD pricing. I see from the Manage My Account page that my S2 is shown as 1-year, prepay.
> 
> Does anyone know or have a guess as to what happens when the year is up. Will I still get $6.95/mo, month-to-month or will I need to re-up for a service contract 1,2,3 years?


When I looked into the lifetime transfer offer I asked the question and it would be based on the commitment level. The MSD pricing is no longer $6.95, it is a $6 discount off of regular. So if you commit to:

1 year you get $6 off of $19.95 = $13.95/month
2 years you get $6 off of $14.95 = $8.95/month
3 years and you get $6 off $12.95 = $6.95/month
0 years and you get a lovely tin box to prop open your door with

This is killing the value of the S2 TiVos... I'm buying NIB 40 hour TiVos off of Craig's list for $30 (max). I offer $15 for unsubbed boxes. I'm parting them out. I'm getting ~$15 for the remote, $15 for the cable set, $20 for the powersupply, and $20 for the HDD with an image that matches your box. As a package you can't sell the darn things, but people always need parts for their broken lifetime boxes.


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## rdrrepair

PrimeRisk said:


> ...It is very unlikely that I'll ever buy another SA TiVo because I can't get lifetime and I'm unwilling to commit to 3 years of service to get a reasonable price on service. If I could still get $6.95/month service on month to month associated with my lifetime units, it might be a go, but not otherwise.


You are thinking the same thing I am. If they had MRV enabled I would have gone for another S3.

It's funny, when I got my first box (Sony SVR2000) I had a hard time justifying a lifetime purchase. Now, I wouldn't dream of one without lifetime.


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## ginaf20697

My poor Tivo **** the pit today after we lost power and I'm totally torn on what to do. I would love a new unit but the price for service just kills me when the old one has lifetime. I'm still debating on whether I should just get an upgrade kit plus I'm going through Tivo withdrawal


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## 1283

ginaf20697 said:


> My poor Tivo **** the pit today after we lost power


Don't run any device with hard drive without UPS.


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## ginaf20697

Huh? UPS? I did manage to finally kick it back to life but it's 5 years old so I really need to start looking to upgrade in one way or the other


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## PrimeRisk

ginaf20697 said:


> Huh? UPS? I did manage to finally kick it back to life but it's 5 years old so I really need to start looking to upgrade in one way or the other


An uninterruptible power supply (UPS) is a very good idea to run computer equipment on. Computer hard drives (the heart of your TiVo) don't do very well with the power bouncing up and down.


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## ginaf20697

Oh OK thanks


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## juanian

You can usually find a UPS on sale for about $30-$40 that should work for a TiVo. (I would suggest that you not plug a TV or other heavy electricity item into the battery backup part, unless it is a higher-power UPS). 

CompUSA currently has the "APC Back-UPS ES UPS, 350VA, 200watts" on sale for $30 (if you still have a CompUSA in your area). APC is a good brand, and this unit has some battery-backed up outlets, and some outlets that only provide surge protection. BE SURE to plug your TV (and cable box, if you have one) into the surge-protection side. Otherwise, a large voltage spike in he AC can flow through the unprotected device into the protected device through the coax. 

I keep an eye out for a good sale on UPS boxes; I have them all through the house (at nearly every TV or other piece of important equipment). I have normal things like computers plugged into a UPS, but I also have things like my phone answering machine, standalone DVD Recorders, cable modem, ethernet routers, and of course the video game console plugged into a UPS. (No need to worry about a momentary power glitch making a coaster out of a DVD being burned, or the loss of whatever in-progress game you are in.) These devices use much less power thana computer, so they don't need a UPS that has a large battery. (A UPS that will keep a computer going for 10 minutes will probably keep these low-power devices going for a half-hour or mote.) Just don't plug a TV (or laser printer) into a UPS, unless the UPS has a very large capacity battery. 

Some of the UPS's that I have can also protect coax and phone/ethernet. Many of the medium-priced UPS can do this (cost is closer to $50-70, or cheaper on sale). 

One anecdote I have: Someone had their computers plugged into a surge suppressor (as they should), but didn't protect the phone line. A storm blew a tree down into the power lines, putting a sizeable voltage onto the phone line. Since the phone line wasn't protected, it blew out all of the phones, and took out the modem in the computer that the phone line was plugged into. In addition, the phone line running to the computer was under a throw rug on the floor; the bottom of the throw rug was scorched where the phone line had been!


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## ashu

DO NOT run coax through surge protectors and/or UPSes - massive signal losses usually occur and you start to wonder why you don't receive channels, or why there is so much digtial loss


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## juanian

ashu said:


> DO NOT run coax through surge protectors and/or UPSes - massive signal losses usually occur and you start to wonder why you don't receive channels, or why there is so much digtial loss


True -- there was a "detectable" signal loss going thru the surge protector, but I don't recall how many dBs it was. I think it was less than an average splitter, but I don't have my notes to verify how much. But, unless you have a weak signal to begin with, IMHO it should not make that much of a diffference, and the protection it provides is worth it.


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## TiVo Troll

PrimeRisk said:


> When I looked into the lifetime transfer offer I asked the question and it would be based on the commitment level. The MSD pricing is no longer $6.95, it is a $6 discount off of regular. So if you commit to:
> 
> 1 year you get $6 off of $19.95 = $13.95/month
> 2 years you get $6 off of $14.95 = $8.95/month
> 3 years and you get $6 off $12.95 = $6.95/month
> 0 years and you get a lovely tin box to prop open your door with
> 
> This is killing the value of the S2 TiVos... I'm buying NIB 40 hour TiVos off of Craig's list for $30 (max). I offer $15 for unsubbed boxes. I'm parting them out. I'm getting ~$15 for the remote, $15 for the cable set, $20 for the powersupply, and $20 for the HDD with an image that matches your box. As a package you can't sell the darn things, but people always need parts for their broken lifetime boxes.


If PrimeRisk or another TiVo Forum member can use two "240" Series 2's, I need to rid of them (for free). One has a 40GB HD the other 80GB.

Shipping is $25. (for both) and, if you want it, 4 month's of remaining pre-paid service on the 40GB for $20. (Otherwise I'll cancel the service, now paid through Sept.)

What's "wrong" with these TiVos?

Both have whiny hard drives; the 80GB drive is noisier than the 40GB. Neither HD has given any other evidence of failure besides being noisy.

Two remotes are included; one a Thompson UK silver Series 1 model; the other a Series 2 remote which is missing the TiVo button.

No cables other than the power cords, or manuals.

That's it!


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## ashu

Perfect for an upgrader to turn around on ebay! Heck, have them send you a cut


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## roperdan

So long, TiVo...

TiVo, for you and me it's been a good run, but our time together is over... This new pricing is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I have a series 2 box with a 1 year prepaid plan, and it expired 3 months ago. When I finally called to renew I was told I would have to buy another 1, 2, or 3 year plan or pay 19.95/month to keep the service. Are you crazy? What a total lack of commitment to your current customers. 

The bottom line is that TiVo used to have a better product than competing Cable company DVRs but that time is over. The cable company DVRs now have the bugs worked out and offer better services such as ON DEMAND programing for between $9.99 to $12.99 per month and they do it IN HIGH DEFINITION and with duel tuners--WITH NO UP FRONT COST, and no yearly contract you have to sign. It seems obvious to me that the reason TiVo is now pushing these contracts is so they will hook the customer for a multiyear commitment before they realize they can get a better product from their cable company for MUCH CHEAPER. 

Bad move TiVo, you should be undercutting the cable companies with cheaper prices to stay in the market, not raising your prices. 

I'm not the only one that feels this way. Read the article titled "So Long, TiVo" in the May 8, 2007 issue of PC Magazine to get Sascha Segan's opinion.

Owner of a series 2 TiVo which is now collecting dust on a shelf in my basement while I watch High Def DVR TV from my Motorola DVR from Comcast.


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## Adam1115

I reject the notion that the cable co dvr is 'free'.

Yes, I paid $675 for my Series3, and another $299 for 3 years of service. But I pay $14.99 for basic cable (and then get a $10 discount from my cable modem...) So for $4.99 I'm getting about 20-25 cable channels. Maybe I'm missing a couple of channels, but their cable channels, not that big of a deal.

I pay another $19.99 for HBO on Dish Network. Total cable bill is $24.99 a month with HBO. I'm recording all of my local channels in full HD glory...

How much is a "free" dvr? Well, I have to not only subscribe to "Extended Basic", but DIGITAL cable. That's $60.94/month. Want a DVR? $11.95/mo. Want HD? $5/mo. Now we're at $77.89. Oh woops, forgot HBO, another $20/mo.. $97.89/mo plus taxes and fees. And you're calling that FREE?? My Series 3 WITH SERVICE will be paid off in under a year compared to that.

You're paying that much for cable and are worried about plopping down $299 for 3 years of tivo? It's like $6/mo prepaid...


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## aindik

Adam1115 said:


> I reject the notion that the cable co dvr is 'free'.
> 
> Yes, I paid $675 for my Series3, and another $299 for 3 years of service. But I pay $14.99 for basic cable (and then get a $10 discount from my cable modem...) So for $4.99 I'm getting about 20-25 cable channels. Maybe I'm missing a couple of channels, but their cable channels, not that big of a deal.
> 
> I pay another $19.99 for HBO on Dish Network. Total cable bill is $24.99 a month with HBO. I'm recording all of my local channels in full HD glory...
> 
> How much is a "free" dvr? Well, I have to not only subscribe to "Extended Basic", but DIGITAL cable. That's $60.94/month. Want a DVR? $11.95/mo. Want HD? $5/mo. Now we're at $77.89. Oh woops, forgot HBO, another $20/mo.. $97.89/mo plus taxes and fees. And you're calling that FREE?? My Series 3 WITH SERVICE will be paid off in under a year compared to that.
> 
> You're paying that much for cable and are worried about plopping down $299 for 3 years of tivo? It's like $6/mo prepaid...


Do you watch sports? Because, with that package, you don't get ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, TNT-HD, Versus-HD or INHD with their occasional NBA-TV games.

Many people subscribe to Digital Cable anyway. Not everyone who does it does it just for the DVR.


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## Adam1115

aindik said:


> Do you watch sports? Because, with that package, you don't get ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, TNT-HD, Versus-HD or INHD with their occasional NBA-TV games.
> 
> Many people subscribe to Digital Cable anyway. Not everyone who does it does it just for the DVR.


I used to have all of that and directv, and while I would love ESPN-HD, and NFL-HD, I could care less about the rest of your list. It is not worth paying an extra $75 a month for two channels...!

I get MOST sports I want through OTA HD. It is frustrating to not get ESPN in HD when that special game is on and not on broadcast, but that isn't too often. But SEVENTY FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH, no way.


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## Brighton Line

I'm paying Dolans $99 a month for one DVR in that fee is $5 to have premium channels on the second STB.
My living room has a HDTV but the bedroom is still ye olde CRT with an old Humax 80 hour. Cablevison does not charge for HD channels (they get the $5 for the 2nd box premium channels).

I need a new TV in the bedroom, What am I to do? 
I do not have $600 for Series 3 and $600 for a HDTV and $300 for service, what do I save with Tivo?
I loose the 2nd box fee of $6.03 and remote fee of $0.22 plus the $3.00 for cable card so I'm paying $3.25 less a month to Dolans.
What am I saving?
I'll buy an HDTV, pay another $9.95 for a 2nd DVR a month. I already a have two external ESATA drives so I'm ahead of the game and sell my HUMAX on Ebay (hehe).

I love Tivo and the ease of use but I can't afford TIVO/HD and once you go HD you ain't going back IMHO.


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## 1283

Brighton Line said:


> I'm paying Dolans $99 a month for one DVR ..... but I can't afford TIVO/HD


I pay Comcast $17/month and have multiple TiVos.


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## Judremy

OK, here is the situation:

I have a lifetime membership on a Toshiba DVD player/Tivo since 11/2004.

I have 1 tivo box on MSD at $6.95 since sometime last year.

I also bought a box last year (with one year pre-paid for and settled on 11/2/2006).

My question is what will I have to pay to keep the third box active after 11/2007? Will it be $6.95 since my main box is lifetime or will it be $12.95? It was bought BEFORE the 11/10 price raise and from my understanding of the first post, any boxes bought before 11/10 can continue at the normal $12.95 which under the MSD is $6.00 less so it would be $6.95. Am I right?


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## CrispyCritter

Judremy said:


> My question is what will I have to pay to keep the third box active after 11/2007? Will it be $6.95 since my main box is lifetime or will it be $12.95? It was bought BEFORE the 11/10 price raise and from my understanding of the first post, any boxes bought before 11/10 can continue at the normal $12.95 which under the MSD is $6.00 less so it would be $6.95. Am I right?


No. The first post specifically reserves the right of TiVo to charge you at the current 1 year rate, which is more than $12.95 - $6 rate.

What they will actually charge you, I don't know. They've never said. You can always get the $6.95 rate with a 3 year commitment, and given your situation I wouldn't be afraid to do so. I would guess the chances of you ditching TiVo completely in the next 3 years to be small, and the 3 year commitment is transferable to other TiVos.


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## Judremy

I was referring more to this part from the first post:


> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


Since I bought and paid for my pre-paid Tivo on 11/1 and it was settled on 11/2 then I would assume this would include me.


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## CrispyCritter

Judremy said:


> Since I bought and paid for my pre-paid Tivo on 11/1 and it was settled on 11/2 then I would assume this would include me.


Yes, that includes you. Please re-read the last sentence of the paragraph you quoted, and the first sentence of my initial reply to you. We don't know what TiVo has decided to do; they certainly did not commit to a $6.95 rate for you, which is what you asked. We don't know; TiVo needs to clarify this.


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## rem

i have an s3 on lifetime (transferred from from a 540) and a dt which i purchased on a 1-year prepay in may of 2006. since i purchased this before the fall 2006 pricing change, shouldn't i be getting the lower monthly rate of $6.95? they are charging me $10.95 because the then monthly rate on the 1-year plan is equivalent to $16.95/month.

i understand how the new pricing policy works, but those who purchased and activated prior to the new pricing policy should be subject to the old pricing of $12.95/month when the commitment ends and they fall back to the month-to-month plan.

do i have a valid argument here?


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## AFP1

TiVoPony said:


> Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:
> 
> TiVo Pricing Q&A
> November 10, 2006
> 
> Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
> A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.
> 
> Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
> A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.
> 
> Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
> A. The new pricing doesnt affect any of our current customers rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.
> 
> Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
> A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.
> 
> Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
> A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.
> 
> Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
> A. While your existing second box is grandfathered at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
> A.	This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.
> 
> Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
> A.	Weve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.


 ***Keep Playing Games Tivo!!
I am sure that you are aware that other Companies are now creating their own Systems that are similar, but more Advanced and less expensive to Purchase and Subscribe??
If you keep playing Games with Pricing, you are only getting Old Customers mad because they have been with you for Years, but now Pay More than a Newbie does for the Units!!
It's not like you have made a change because of a Cost of Living Increase, or for any other Legitimate reason. You change your Prices almost Weekly! The last Unit I Purchased a few Months ago, cost me $30.00 **MORE, because I decided to wait until Morning to Order!! A lousey 10 Hour difference cost me $30!! You should have Honored the old price from the Day before, but I have never seen Tivo do anything that actually rewards their Old Customers who put them in, and keep them in Business..... *For now anyway!!
**When the New Companies start popping up, I am sure you will lose many Customers!


----------



## 1283

AFP1 said:


> The last Unit I Purchased a few Months ago, cost me $30.00 **MORE, because I decided to wait until Morning to Order!! A lousey 10 Hour difference cost me $30!! You should have Honored the old price from the Day before


Which planet are you from?


----------



## kenrlz2

It took over a month but I finally have the cancellation numbers for both of my tivo's. It's great that Tivo has changed there price to get new customers, but what about those of us that paid premium prices for equipment and now are asked to pay inflated monthly charges. It's great that with a contract I can get the Tivo service for 12.95 plus 6.95 for second box. Brighthouse cable offers HD DVR for 6.95 per month with no contract. Tivo customer service offered twice to give me lower pricing if I would keep the service and then overcharged me both times. Pricing seems to be going up and quality of service is going down.


----------



## Adam1115

Are you guys canceling your $100/mo cable every year when they raise rates to cover their 'free dvr's'??


----------



## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> Are you guys canceling your $100/mo cable every year when they raise rates to cover their 'free dvr's'??


Since both satellite services started doing the same thing every year, it just doesn't matter much anymore.


----------



## kenrlz2

Adam1115 said:


> Are you guys canceling your $100/mo cable every year when they raise rates to cover their 'free dvr's'??


Not quite the same thing. I already have to pay the cable bill, Tivo doesn't supply any programming. I've been a tivo customer for over 2 years and now they offer lower prices to new customers and they will send them better equipment than I have paid for. Is it out of loyalty that I should sign a contract with tivo and pay twice as much for standard definition? Tivo's the one that has raised thier prices to give away dvr's.


----------



## Adam1115

kenrlz2 said:


> Not quite the same thing. I already have to pay the cable bill, Tivo doesn't supply any programming.


  When did cable company's start FORCING people to have cable!?!?


----------



## kenrlz2

Adam1115 said:


> When did cable company's start FORCING people to have cable!?!?


Sorry, my mistake. I could tivo my favorite shows using rabbit ears and ignore the static. Point is that while I have been a huge tivo fan since I purchased my first one in 2004, the cable companies are now offering a much more affordable alternative without the contract. Why should I pay Tivo 16.95 when I a can pay the cable company 6.95? How many people reading this post and paying Tivo a monthly charge are not subscribing to some form of cable or satelite?


----------



## 1283

If you're already paying a lot of money to the cable company, then yes, the cable DVR is likely to be a lower cost solution. As for me, Comcast wants to charge me additional $60/month for their DVR.


----------



## dswallow

kenrlz2 said:


> Sorry, my mistake. I could tivo my favorite shows using rabbit ears and ignore the static. Point is that while I have been a huge tivo fan since I purchased my first one in 2004, the cable companies are now offering a much more affordable alternative without the contract. Why should I pay Tivo 16.95 when I a can pay the cable company 6.95? How many people reading this post and paying Tivo a monthly charge are not subscribing to some form of cable or satelite?


If I didn't have a need for internet service, I could conceivably get along without cable with my Series 3, since maybe 90% of everything I watch is OTA in digital/HD anyway, so I don't gain anything with cable for it.

But with the package deal for internet and phone service, and just generally liking having options of the non-broadcast channels, I subscribe anyway.


----------



## brian1269

Adam1115 said:


> I reject the notion that the cable co dvr is 'free'.
> 
> Yes, I paid $675 for my Series3, and another $299 for 3 years of service. But I pay $14.99 for basic cable (and then get a $10 discount from my cable modem...) So for $4.99 I'm getting about 20-25 cable channels. Maybe I'm missing a couple of channels, but their cable channels, not that big of a deal.
> 
> I pay another $19.99 for HBO on Dish Network. Total cable bill is $24.99 a month with HBO. I'm recording all of my local channels in full HD glory...
> 
> How much is a "free" dvr? Well, I have to not only subscribe to "Extended Basic", but DIGITAL cable. That's $60.94/month. Want a DVR? $11.95/mo. Want HD? $5/mo. Now we're at $77.89. Oh woops, forgot HBO, another $20/mo.. $97.89/mo plus taxes and fees. And you're calling that FREE?? My Series 3 WITH SERVICE will be paid off in under a year compared to that.
> 
> You're paying that much for cable and are worried about plopping down $299 for 3 years of tivo? It's like $6/mo prepaid...


Why do you keep equating a cable bill to TiVo raising their rates on exisiting customers and the overpriced HD hardware? The two have nothing to do with each other. It sounds like you don't care about having many channels, but for everyone else that wants all the channels, it is going to cost around $100 a month whether you have cable or a dish.

Yes of course cable DVR boxes are not free, and as a longtime TiVo customer, they are not as good as TiVo. But they certainly are a lot cheaper now for HD.

Let's do the math.

Let's use your 3-year plan. Charter charges $11.99 per month for their DVR service. 36 months * $11.99 = $431.64.
$799.99 Series 3 TiVo + $299 for 3 years service = $1098.99 (plus tax), all up front.

You can get the TiVo a little cheaper at Weaknees, but still quite a difference. The good thing is that you own the TiVo, but after 3 years who knows how obsolete it will be, and you can trade in your cable company DVR for a better one if available.

Instead of keeping its loyal customers, it is driving them off with these ridiculous pricing changes. I bought a Series 2DT package a little over a year ago and the prepaid just ran out. According to the first post in this thread, I should be charged from month to month at the rate my plan was for ($12.95). But guess what, I just checked my credit card statement and I am being charged $16.95. Nice.

I predict this kind of crap is going to hurt TiVo badly. There have been rumors for years that they have been on the verge of going under. I can see why now. And after reading through the forum, I see there are many people that have a problem with these new policies.

If I had unlimited funds and just didn't care, I would certainly stay with TiVo and get a 100-hour Series 3 from Weaknees. I love the interface and love many of the features. But most people don't have unlimited funds.

So I guess I'm going to go check out the cable company's HD DVR tomorrow .


----------



## bicker

dswallow said:


> Since both satellite services started doing the same thing every year, it just doesn't matter much anymore.


Precisely: It's a matter of value, and value is determined by how much the market is willing to pay. Any company that routine charges substantially less than customers are willing to pay is denying its fiduciary responsibility to its owners.


----------



## Adam1115

kenrlz2 said:


> Sorry, my mistake. I could tivo my favorite shows using rabbit ears and ignore the static. Point is that while I have been a huge tivo fan since I purchased my first one in 2004, the cable companies are now offering a much more affordable alternative without the contract. Why should I pay Tivo 16.95 when I a can pay the cable company 6.95? How many people reading this post and paying Tivo a monthly charge are not subscribing to some form of cable or satelite?


My 'rabbit ears' bring me a crystal clear 1080i picture with DD 5.1 surround sound...



brian1269 said:


> Why do you keep equating a cable bill to TiVo raising their rates on exisiting customers and the overpriced HD hardware? The two have nothing to do with each other. It sounds like you don't care about having many channels, but for everyone else that wants all the channels, it is going to cost around $100 a month whether you have cable or a dish.
> 
> Yes of course cable DVR boxes are not free, and as a longtime TiVo customer, they are not as good as TiVo. But they certainly are a lot cheaper now for HD..


Exactly why you say, to point out that Cable DVR's are NOT free!!



brian1269 said:


> Let's do the math.
> 
> Let's use your 3-year plan. Charter charges $11.99 per month for their DVR service. 36 months * $11.99 = $431.64.
> $799.99 Series 3 TiVo + $299 for 3 years service = $1098.99 (plus tax), all up front.
> 
> You can get the TiVo a little cheaper at Weaknees, but still quite a difference. The good thing is that you own the TiVo, but after 3 years who knows how obsolete it will be, and you can trade in your cable company DVR for a better one if available.


No, your math is wrong. I paid $679 right here on this forum last year. (The price is now $599.) I prepaid for 3 years, $299, so I have about a grand into it.

But I can't get a DVR from comcast for $11.99 a month! I have to pay an additional $60/mo for digital cable first. That makes it more like $800 for the FIRST YEAR!! That doesn't include HD. My Series3 will be paid for in year one. It can be as obsolete as it wants after that...



brian1269 said:


> Instead of keeping its loyal customers, it is driving them off with these ridiculous pricing changes. I bought a Series 2DT package a little over a year ago and the prepaid just ran out. According to the first post in this thread, I should be charged from month to month at the rate my plan was for ($12.95). But guess what, I just checked my credit card statement and I am being charged $16.95. Nice.
> 
> I predict this kind of crap is going to hurt TiVo badly. There have been rumors for years that they have been on the verge of going under. I can see why now. And after reading through the forum, I see there are many people that have a problem with these new policies.
> 
> If I had unlimited funds and just didn't care, I would certainly stay with TiVo and get a 100-hour Series 3 from Weaknees. I love the interface and love many of the features. But most people don't have unlimited funds.
> 
> So I guess I'm going to go check out the cable company's HD DVR tomorrow .


The prices haven't gone up 1 cent! The COMMITMENT has gone up.


----------



## kenrlz2

Why does this keep getting completely off topic? The topic is Tivo pricing. I personally have cable and watch premium channels. I don't want to invest $800 for a HD DVR when I can rent one for $6.95 a month and trade it in when a newer better one comes out in a year. I can see why someone would be so defensive however, considering you'll never get anything close to you investment back out it. Tivo also kept promising me discounts and then charging me the full 16.95 rather than just cancelling the account the first time I asked them, it seems that they are getting a little bit desperate.


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## Adam1115

Well, since I can't seem to convince you guys that TiVo IS a good deal..

Get cable dvr's, then upgrade to the ComcasTiVo software.


----------



## timckelley

Adam1115 said:


> Well, since I can't seem to convince you guys that TiVo IS a good deal..


It's been a good deal for me:

One life time sub that was started 4 years ago, and another lifetime sub that was started 2 1/2 years ago, each for $299.

So far my average monthly cost per TiVo has been approximately $7.67 per month, and it continues to drop as I get more use out of my lifetime subs. 

A year from now I project that average cost (retroactive to the beginning) to be only $5.86 per month, so it contues to drop at fair pace. 

(Edit: I may need to redo my figures above, as my second TiVo was lifetimed just before they did away with the lifetime option - I had it unsubbed before that. Was that only 1 1/2 years ago, or 2 1/2 years? The first sub has definitely been in force for 4 years though.)


----------



## brian1269

Adam1115 said:


> Well, since I can't seem to convince you guys that TiVo IS a good deal..
> 
> Get cable dvr's, then upgrade to the ComcasTiVo software.


TiVo is a decent deal, especially since it's the best. The problem I have is that I have a series 2DT right now, and it's obsolete because it can't record HD. I want to go with TiVo, but it's going to cost me so much. A 60-hour box (who can live with just 32 hours) costs $1049 at Weaknees. Even if I just went with the 32- hour, it's still $600. That's a lot to pay for something that will probably be half the price in a year or so.
I wish the damn cable companies would use TiVo units. lol


----------



## TiVo Troll

kenrlz2 said:


> Not quite the same thing. I already have to pay the cable bill, Tivo doesn't supply any programming. I've been a tivo customer for over 2 years and now they offer lower prices to new customers and they will send them better equipment than I have paid for. Is it out of loyalty that I should sign a contract with tivo and pay twice as much for standard definition? Tivo's the one that has raised thier prices to give away dvr's.


Ah, c'mon now; TiVo is MUCH cheaper than getting cable service with cable hi-def DVR service!

Instead of spending around a hundred bucks a month for a cable package, just get a TiVo S3 without cable.


----------



## 1283

brian1269 said:


> A 60-hour box (who can live with just 32 hours) costs $1049 at Weaknees. Even if I just went with the 32- hour, it's still $600.


You can get a 500GB drive (65 hours) for <$150.


----------



## samo

TiVo Troll said:


> Ah, c'mon now; TiVo is MUCH cheaper than getting cable service with cable hi-def DVR service!
> 
> Instead of spending around a hundred bucks a month for a cable package, just get a TiVo S3 without cable.


It would be even cheaper if you just listen to the radio.


----------



## dswallow

samo said:


> It would be even cheaper if you just listen to the radio.


Since you wouldn't have TiVo functionality with a radio, you may as well just watch OTA TV live.


----------



## TiVo Troll

samo said:


> It would be even cheaper if you just listen to the radio.


Hey c'mon, send a test pattern to the S3 along with the radio feed. Just close your eyes and it's better than hi-def, limited only by your imagination!


----------



## samo

dswallow said:


> Since you wouldn't have TiVo functionality with a radio, you may as well just watch OTA TV live.


But radio is much cheaper than TV set. For under $50 you can have MP3/FM radio recorder that allows you to record hours of radio for the playback later with no monthly fee.


----------



## bicker

kenrlz2 said:


> Why does this keep getting completely off topic?


Because people get frustrated that they cannot have an unrebutted soap-box. Yes, we're talking about pricing. Pricing isn't right or wrong, like some people are trying to make it out to be, at least not for the reasons they're trying to use as foundation for their arguments.


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## rschmars

I had a 2nd TiVo for which I was being charged $6.95 a month. I replaced it with a series 2 DT which came with 1 year of service. Now that the year is up they are charging me $10.95 a month for the 2nd TiVo. Not sure why with $6 off for a 2nd TiVo that would make it $16.95 a month normally which I don't see in any plan.


----------



## classicsat

rschmars said:


> I had a 2nd TiVo for which I was being charged $6.95 a month. I replaced it with a series 2 DT which came with 1 year of service. Now that the year is up they are charging me $10.95 a month for the 2nd TiVo. Not sure why with $6 off for a 2nd TiVo that would make it $16.95 a month normally which I don't see in any plan.


$16.95 is the montly full sub price for a year, which the box reverted to when the prepay ran out, less $6.00=$10.95. To get less, you need to commit to 3 years.


----------



## 1283

rschmars said:


> Not sure why with $6 off for a 2nd TiVo that would make it $16.95 a month normally which I don't see in any plan.


The current 1-year rate is $19.95/month, but it was $16.95 for a period of time before 5/1.


----------



## rschmars

classicsat said:


> $16.95 is the montly full sub price for a year, which the box reverted to when the prepay ran out, less $6.00=$10.95. To get less, you need to commit to 3 years.


So does that mean if I sign up for a 3 year monthly play normally $12.95 a month, I will get it for $6.95 a month for my 2nd TiVo?
Or if I get the 3 year prepaid plan for $299 for 3 years = $8.30 a month would I get it for $2.30 a month or $82.80 (doubt that very much).


----------



## CrispyCritter

rschmars said:


> So does that mean if I sign up for a 3 year monthly play normally $12.95 a month, I will get it for $6.95 a month for my 2nd TiVo?


Yes. (What they are currently charging you shows that they already think your first TiVo qualifies you for the MSD discount).

Note that the 3 year commitment is for the TiVo service plan, not this particular 2nd TiVo. It can be transferred to another TiVo at a later date.


----------



## 1283

c3 said:


> The current 1-year rate is $19.95/month, but it was $16.95 for a period of time before 5/1.


What's going on with Tivo's frequent price changes? It's $16.95 again.


----------



## Einselen

c3 said:


> What's going on with Tivo's frequent price changes? It's $16.95 again.


Prepaid for 1 year is also $179 now, reduced from $199.


----------



## Dajad

rschmars said:


> So does that mean if I sign up for a 3 year monthly play normally $12.95 a month, I will get it for $6.95 a month for my 2nd TiVo?
> Or if I get the 3 year prepaid plan for $299 for 3 years = $8.30 a month would I get it for $2.30 a month or $82.80 (doubt that very much).


OK, so from the answers so far and after re-reading TiVoPony's original post I still don't know how much someone would pay for a 2nd TiVo if they are willing to pay 3 years up-front. Can someone answer this specific question:

I own an S3 already fully subbed. I buy a new S2 dual-tuner unit. I want to prepay the subscription fee for the second unit for three years (presumably this is the best deal). How much is my one-time payment for three years of service for the 2nd TiVo in the household?

Thanks.

...Dale


----------



## 1283

Dajad said:


> I own an S3 already fully subbed.


What does "fully subbed" mean?

The only 3-year prepay available is $299. It doesn't matter if it's the 1st/2nd/3rd unit. The lowest monthly is $6.95 with 3-year MSD, but there is no prepay option.


----------



## Dajad

OK, in answer to my own question, it appears that pre-paid account holders don't qualify for the multi-room discount:

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.4.asp

Argh!!!!

...Dale


----------



## Dajad

c3 said:


> What does "fully subbed" mean?
> 
> The only 3-year prepay available is $299. It doesn't matter if it's the 1st/2nd/3rd unit. The lowest monthly is $6.95 with 3-year MSD, but there is no prepay option.


Thanks C3:

Fully subbed means Lifetime sub. But in casually reading the fine print you get no discount on a second unit unless you are a monthly payer (ie: prepaid users don't get a multi-room discount option) AND it seems the discount is only available if you activate the 2nd unit within 180 days from the first unit activation.

So, I'm SOL on two basis! I gather I'd have to pay the full three year paid-up fee for my second unit when I am willing to pay up-front - meaning us up front payers get no discount if we want a second unit!

Every time I read about the new payment plans it seems I find a new way that TiVo is screwing those of us that want upfront/and/or lifetime payment options. I will NEVER pay a monthly fee!

...Dale


----------



## 1283

Dajad said:


> it seems the discount is only available if you activate the 2nd unit within 180 days from the first unit activation.


No, that is not what it means. The lifetime unit must phone home every 180 days to be considered an active unit. You cannot have a dead lifetime unit (or put one in storage for a year) and receive MSD discount on another unit.


----------



## Dajad

OK, interesting ... thanks .... but, you still can ONLY have a multi-room discount IF the second unit is on a monthly payment plan??? Quoting from the terms:

"Only monthly service-only TiVo service or TiVo Plus service subscriptions are eligible to receive the MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT. TiVo Package, Annual, Prepaid, and Product Lifetime Subscriptions are not eligible to receive the MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT"​
You can't get a discount if you prepay for 3 years on the 2nd unit? So, if I agreed to pay monthly (which I refuse to do) my total for three years would be $6.95 x 36 = $250.20. But, if I pay them up-front cash for three years, which is presumably a benefit to them, I must pay $299.00 How does this make sense?

Why won't they TAKE my money up-front for the same service. They'd rather have the administrative overhead of having to collect each month? They'd rather have the possibility of delinquent accounts. You'd think they'd want to incentivize up-front payments, or at least bring them to parity.

Argh!!! What a complicated policy.


----------



## CrispyCritter

Dajad said:


> You can't get a discount if you prepay for 3 years on the 2nd unit? So, if I agreed to pay monthly (which I refuse to do) my total for three years would be $6.95 x 36 = $250.20. But, if I pay them up-front cash for three years, which is presumably a benefit to them, I must pay $299.00 How does this make sense?
> Argh!!! What a complicated policy.


And if you paid them, say, $200 for a MSD 3 year prepaid plan, and then you got rid of your other unit, that would end up less complicated??? What would happen then?

MSD does not interact well with their present plans; I'm just glad they've decided to keep it, so far.


----------



## Dajad

What the heck does it matter if I have another unit or not. I paid a lifetime subscription for the other unit. They are not getting a penny of subscription revenue out of me on the other unit no matter what!? I don't get your point.

The context of this silliness is that you can't get a multi-room discount when you pre-pay. If you've PRE-PAID, Crispy Critter, you've pre-paid, whether you ditch the other unit or not. Heck if you pre-paid for the other unit and ditch it under your scenario, then its even more to TiVo's benefit, they got that pre-paid funding for the other unit as well and you aren't using there resources any more to download guide data for that other unit.

I understand that if you HAVEN'T prepaid and you are paying monthly on unit 1, that your abiltiy to get a discount for Unit 2 is contingent on your continuing to pay for a unit 1 subscription. But that's not the scenario I paint. Under my scenario TiVo gets all their money up front for BOTH units - whether you use them or not! The best of all worlds for TiVo.

...Dale


----------



## samo

Dajad said:


> What the heck does it matter if I have another unit or not. I paid a lifetime subscription for the other unit. They are not getting a penny of subscription revenue out of me on the other unit no matter what!? I don't get your point.
> 
> The context of this silliness is that you can't get a multi-room discount when you pre-pay. If you've PRE-PAID, Crispy Critter, you've pre-paid, whether you ditch the other unit or not. Heck if you pre-paid for the other unit and ditch it under your scenario, then its even more to TiVo's benefit, they got that pre-paid funding for the other unit as well and you aren't using there resources any more to download guide data for that other unit.
> 
> I understand that if you HAVEN'T prepaid and you are paying monthly on unit 1, that your abiltiy to get a discount for Unit 2 is contingent on your continuing to pay for a unit 1 subscription. But that's not the scenario I paint. Under my scenario TiVo gets all their money up front for BOTH units - whether you use them or not! The best of all worlds for TiVo.
> 
> ...Dale


Dale your biggest problem is that you are trying to use common sense. There is no logic or common sense in a new TiVo pricing plan. It is a convoluted disaster dreamed up by the same people who are in charge of marketing campaigns.


----------



## HDTiVo

samo said:


> Dale your biggest problem is that you are trying to use common sense. There is no logic or common sense in a new TiVo pricing plan. It is a convoluted disaster dreamed up by the same people who are in charge of marketing campaigns.


But the new marketing campaign is so awesome it will make everyone lose their senses and buy TiVoes by the handful.


----------



## samo

HDTiVo said:


> But the new marketing campaign is so awesome it will make everyone lose their senses and buy TiVoes by the handful.


Oh yes! Great job. Antennas on a head of the old lady are certain to convince my mother to buy TiVo.


----------



## 1283

Dajad said:


> What the heck does it matter if I have another unit or not. I paid a lifetime subscription for the other unit. They are not getting a penny of subscription revenue out of me on the other unit no matter what!? I don't get your point.


If your lifetime unit dies, then you no longer qualify for the MSD rate.


----------



## samo

c3 said:


> If your lifetime unit dies, then you no longer qualify for the MSD rate.


And this is exactly TiVo "wisdom" that Dale doesn't understand. Why should TiVo care if his PREPAID unit die?


----------



## rdrrepair

samo said:


> And this is exactly TiVo "wisdom" that Dale doesn't understand. Why should TiVo care if his PREPAID unit die?


I have 5 Lifetimes & a 1yr sub transfer. Does that mean I shouldn't qualify? I get Dales point, he thinks that because he paid the "Lifetime Fee" that he should qualify for the MSD. I think he's right... Pre-paying for 3 years should be an option, but sadly, this turns into a slippery slope.

He could go out and sell his "Lifetime Unit" on Ebay or sell the MSD unit on Ebay and make more money. How can anybody be sure that I don't let my Mom sign up under the MSD deal? She lives in the same town and uses the same lineup.

When they did the "Lifetime Transfer" for the new S3 I jumped on it. I also asked, at that time, if they would take an additional $100.00 and make my $199.00 for, what they called "same price as one year of service for the old box" and allow me to get 3 yrs for the "3yrs for $299.00 service plan" The CSR said sure, but after trying to force it thru she contacted someone higher up who said no. Hey, I tried... 

It is a convoluted policy. It has many trap doors as the following 27 pages show. Is it cheaper for them to "Give away hardware and cheap plans"? Or, is it cheaper to keep a current customer happy with their older equipment and better plans?

I think TiVo should try to give a break to anyone who owns 3+ year old equipment from the same household, that is in "good standings". Everyone agrees that TiVo looses money on the boxes and that the break even point is around 3yrs. Why do they keep going thru the same "money loosing cycle"?


----------



## CrispyCritter

Dajad said:


> I understand that if you HAVEN'T prepaid and you are paying monthly on unit 1, that your abiltiy to get a discount for Unit 2 is contingent on your continuing to pay for a unit 1 subscription. But that's not the scenario I paint. Under my scenario TiVo gets all their money up front for BOTH units - whether you use them or not! The best of all worlds for TiVo.


The point is not that your scenario would not be reasonably fair for all concerned, it's that you are complaining about the complexity of the current rules once MSD is involved, but you want TiVo to add even more special rules to cover your special case.

You want to increase the complexity: "You can prepay the MSD at this rate, but only if the qualifying unit is a lifetime unit." You're ignoring the games that people will play to *unfairly* reduce their rate. I can see people "buying" a lifetime TiVo for a day so that they can then prepay their second TiVo. They then "sell" the TiVo back to the original owner. What kind of conditions, and even more verbiage, will have to be added to the agreement?

You also are ignoring the fact that prepaying limits TiVo's ability to ever raise rates. They are very careful in their current agreements to make sure that MSD users will be automatically be immediately affected by any raise in the base monthly rate. Again, being fair to TiVo in this area would add another bunch of complexity to any agreement.

MSD does not interact well with the contract plans (and subsidized units) as it is - the agreements and pricing are complex because they need to be. Adding prepaid MSD is only going to increase the complexity substantially.


----------



## Adam1115

Dajad said:


> You can't get a discount if you prepay for 3 years on the 2nd unit? So, if I agreed to pay monthly (which I refuse to do) my total for three years would be $6.95 x 36 = $250.20. But, if I pay them up-front cash for three years, which is presumably a benefit to them, I must pay $299.00 How does this make sense?


+1

I hate this too. I have to maintain and track a credit card for $6.95 a month. THEN, I have to PAY the credit card company $6.95 from my checking account.

What a huge hassle. If you could prepay $249 or whatever I would be there in a heartbeat.


----------



## HDTiVo

I understand why MSD has always been monthly because you have to maintain a qualifying unit, though I suppose they might find a way to charge an additional pre-pay amount for the remaining term if the Q-unit is gone, turning your MSD unit into the Q-unit. Similar to how they raise your monthly rate $6 on the MSD unit if the Q-unit disappears. But that's more theory than practice.

What is really annoying is the lack of ability to buy an MSD unit from TiVo. There is no practical excuse for that, only TiVo's desire to minimize MSD customers.


----------



## Adam1115

HDTiVo said:


> I understand why MSD has always been monthly because you have to maintain a qualifying unit, though I suppose they might find a way to charge an additional pre-pay amount for the remaining term if the Q-unit is gone, turning your MSD unit into the Q-unit. Similar to how they raise your monthly rate $6 on the MSD unit if the Q-unit disappears. But that's more theory than practice.
> 
> What is really annoying is the lack of ability to buy an MSD unit from TiVo. There is no practical excuse for that, only TiVo's desire to minimize MSD customers.


That makes no sense.

If you buy a Lifetime service OR bought three years pre-pay, there is no reason that they couldn't sell you the prepaid MSD at the SAME TIME. They KNOW I'm going to keep my series 3 for 3 years, because I PAID for 3 years!


----------



## aindik

Adam1115 said:


> That makes no sense.
> 
> If you buy a Lifetime service OR bought three years pre-pay, there is no reason that they couldn't sell you the prepaid MSD at the SAME TIME. They KNOW I'm going to keep my series 3 for 3 years, because I PAID for 3 years!


They know somebody is going to keep the series 3 for three years. They don't know it's you.


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## 1283

aindik said:


> They know somebody is going to keep the series 3 for three years. They don't know it's you.


Correct. Also, if the full-priced 3-year prepay unit is cancelled within the first 30 days, what should happen to the MSD prepay unit?


----------



## 1283

Adam1115 said:


> I hate this too. I have to maintain and track a credit card for $6.95 a month. THEN, I have to PAY the credit card company $6.95 from my checking account.


Don't you have other credit card expenses?


----------



## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> I hate this too. I have to maintain and track a credit card for $6.95 a month. THEN, I have to PAY the credit card company $6.95 from my checking account.


If you'd use that Visa debit card on your checking account, you wouldn't face these ridiculous problems.


----------



## Adam1115

aindik said:


> They know somebody is going to keep the series 3 for three years. They don't know it's you.


It's not that complicated. So make it non-refundable, if I buy MSD at the same time as 3 year pre-pay it isn't transferable, or I just lose the MSD service.

They could do SOMETHING..... The current situation is ridiculous. Even if I wanted to prepay at $6.95/month for a year, I can't. I would have to pay $199 for the privilege of not having to worry about paying for a year. Every other company has prepay options.



c3 said:


> Don't you have other credit card expenses?


Nope. Only if I happen to buy something online. I hate using credit cards...



dswallow said:


> If you'd use that Visa debit card on your checking account, you wouldn't face these ridiculous problems.


Brilliant... use my CHECK card on the Internet. That way when someone steals the number, they can drain my entire bank account bouncing all of my checks. Sorry, I don't use a debit card. I prefer the safety of a credit card and their dispute processes.


----------



## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> Brilliant... use my CHECK card on the Internet. That way when someone steals the number, they can drain my entire bank account bouncing all of my checks. Sorry, I don't use a debit card. I prefer the safety of a credit card and their dispute processes.


You could probably solve more than half your complaints if you sought treatment for the paranoid delusions first.


----------



## 1283

Adam1115 said:


> It's not that complicated. So make it non-refundable, if I buy MSD at the same time as 3 year pre-pay it isn't transferable, or I just lose the MSD service.


So you want to add *more* conditions to TiVo's money back, prepay, and MSD policies?



Adam1115 said:


> Nope. Only if I happen to buy something online. I hate using credit cards...


I charge as much as I can to get 1.5%-6% rebates. The *free money* can be used for ..... TiVo subscription fees.


----------



## lastdeadcat

In reading all the different scenarios above, I don't see one exactly like mine. Yesterday, I happened to run across a S2 540 Tivo in a thrift store for $15. I bought it on the chance that it might have something interesting, like lifetime sub, at least a paid up sub or an upgraded hard drive. I found none of that, but it did boot up fine with the latest software versions and the subscription had been cancelled lest than a month ago. If was 40 hour model.

I have two S2 240 tivos, 80-hour and 40-hour units. They are on a wired network and work flawlessly. I am think on adding this 40- unit to the mix. I am trying to find out what it will now cost to activate it. My existing units are on straight month to month costing $12.95 and $6.95 respectively. I believe if I subscribe the new unit, then it must have a contract from 1 to 3 years. 

I am thinking that with a 1-year contract the month to month amount is $19.95 and with a 3-year contract the amount will be $12.95. The new contract would then become the qualifing unit for MSD and the other two would then be $6.95 each a month.

With a 1-year contract the total monthly cost would be $33.85. (19.95+2x6.95)
with a 3-year contract the total monthly cost would be $26.85. (12.95=2x6.95)

Have I figured right?


----------



## CrispyCritter

lastdeadcat said:


> With a 1-year contract the total monthly cost would be $33.85. (19.95+2x6.95)
> with a 3-year contract the total monthly cost would be $26.85. (12.95=2x6.95)
> Have I figured right?


TiVo has reduced the 1-year contract back down to $16.95 (but listed as a sale price now - they also put the 1 year contract on sale for $179). So your first option is now down to $30.85.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

dswallow said:


> You could probably solve more than half your complaints if you sought treatment for the paranoid delusions first.


Emoticon or not, I can't let this one go by.

The FTC estimates that up to 9 million Americans have their identities stolen every year. Even if the actual number is 1/10 of that ...

_... you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?_

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/idtheft/consumers/about-identity-theft.html


----------



## Adam1115

dswallow said:


> You could probably solve more than half your complaints if you sought treatment for the paranoid delusions first.


Paranoid delusions?? I've HAD my cc number stolen before. It takes WEEKS for the credit card company to issue a credit. With a credit card it's not your money. With a debit card, you're out your whole pay check until everything gets sorted out. This actually happened to a friend of mine.

That's not even getting into the authorization problem. One time I bought something with a debit card and instead of just charging me the $500, they put an authorization for $1500, THEN charged $500. The authorization stuck for DAYS... Why is not wanting to give Internet vendors access to my checking account a paranoid delusion??


----------



## Dajad

I too have had my credit card stolen twice had to deal with identity theft. That's not why I want a pre-paid option though.

All the objections here and the, "oh my gosh", complexity arguements are silly. There is nothing complex at all about what I propose. Indeed, the current MSD is MORE complicated, as this thread can attest, because of how they do it than if it was available to pre-paying customers as well. 

All the "risks" of someone selling their first unit on e-bay apply equally to the other plans where the MSD plan is available. If someone did that, they'd be in breach of their agreement - period! TiVo knows the IP address my TiVo's dial home from. If either unit uses a different IP address (or phone number for those still on dial-up), then TiVo knows I'm in breach - just as they do with anyone else abusing the MSD under the other plans where MSD is applicable. 

It's simply a revenue maximization decision TiVo's management made to optimize revenue. Well, they are loosing revenue from me as a result. I don't so much begrudge them the right to make their business decisions as much as I'm angered by TiVoPony et al. attempting to sell me on the idea (in the initial posts in this thread and elsewhere) that the new plan is a net positive for most users. Bumpkuss! 

I never thought I'd seriously consider the trashy PVRs provided by my cable provider until TiVo changed its pricing policy last year. I was able to grandfather my lifetime with my new S3 (which I paid dearly for) but I'll likely never buy another TiVo again in light of the current pricing model. I REFUSE to add yet another monthly payment to my credit card for what amounts to nothing more than guide data - something Microsoft, cable companies and others routinely make available for free to purchasers of their PVRs and/or PVR software. 

And, to top it off, 7 months after launch TiVo STILL isn't providing me with ATSC guide data in Toronto - something that already exists in their system - the Buffalo ATSC data is EXACTLY the same as the Toronto data (we share the same spectrum) - yet TiVo and Tribune haven't figured a way to feed that data into my guide data stream. Ugh!

...Dale


----------



## 1283

If you people really want to prepay for MSD, just get a gift card. A $300 card would last 43 months.


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## Phantom Gremlin

Phantom Gremlin said:


> The FTC estimates that up to 9 million Americans have their identities stolen every year.


Replying to my own post, how tacky.

Maybe Scott Adams reads TiVo Community. But this strip was probably prepared weeks ago:

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070515.html


----------



## CrispyCritter

Dajad said:


> All the objections here and the, "oh my gosh", complexity arguements are silly. There is nothing complex at all about what I propose. Indeed, the current MSD is MORE complicated, as this thread can attest, because of how they do it than if it was available to pre-paying customers as well.
> 
> All the "risks" of someone selling their first unit on e-bay apply equally to the other plans where the MSD plan is available. If someone did that, they'd be in breach of their agreement - period! TiVo knows the IP address my TiVo's dial home from. If either unit uses a different IP address (or phone number for those still on dial-up), then TiVo knows I'm in breach - just as they do with anyone else abusing the MSD under the other plans where MSD is applicable.


Dale, you're normally quite reasonable, but I think you're way off base on this one. The changes in the agreement would be large.

Your cases here are not comparable at all. What happens in the event of a confirmed breach (eg transfer of qualifying unit to someone else)? In the one case, they will automatically increase the rate of *future* payments by $6 (and TiVo will eat the cost of the current month increase). In the other, they have to take pre-paid money that there was an agreement as to what it was to be used for (service until June 2009 for example), and use it for something else instead (service until August 2008, say). That's theft, unless both parties have explicitly agreed in advance as to what will happen, and what will trigger it happening. I can easily see a doubling in size of the MSD agreement, and increased disputes between TiVo and customers as they argue about some event that may have happened a year in the past.


----------



## CrispyCritter

Adam1115 said:


> It's not that complicated. So make it non-refundable, if I buy MSD at the same time as 3 year pre-pay it isn't transferable, or I just lose the MSD service.


It's not that simple. What does TiVo do when you have a qualifying unit, for which you're paying $12.95 monthly, that breaks, and you decide to stop service on it? Stop service on your MSD unit as well? I would certainly object to that!

All of this has to be spelled out in advance.


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## rdrrepair

Would you be willing to pay a one time fee of $250.00 for 3yrs of service? It can be done if you own a qualifying unit. Put on your dancing shoes...

Go to this site  and buy two gift cards. One for $200.00 and one for $50.00. You now own a $250 credit with TiVo. You have only made "The One Payment" that you want to take the hit on.

Contact TiVo and tell them you're signing up for 3yrs of service and you wish to take advantage of the $6.95 plan for 3yrs. Tell them to charge the gift cards for the time frame of 3yrs. $6.95 x 36months = $250.20 ...

What about the .20? You can either pay them the .20 with a credit card or ask them to waive it. Either way you will get the 36 months and when the time ticks down to 36 months you can renew again for any Pre-Payed amount or time and roll it over to be a .40 debt.

That is the cheapest prepay plan for 3yrs you can buy! You just saved $49.80  and TiVo got their money. Everyone is happy and you don't have to leave TiVo. 

Ps. I own the patent on this. You may use it but you must tell others I was the originator of the 3yrs for $250.00 deal 

The only thing that would be simpler would be if TiVo offered a $250.20 giftcard. Who says you can't put lipstick on a pig? 

Idea stolen


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## Dajad

rdrrepair,

You are brilliant! If that works, that would solve my problem ... why TiVo won't just let me pay them to do the same thing in light of that possibility I just don't get.

Now, I wonder if they will sell a gift card to a Canadian. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a no go! They won't ship me a unit to Canada even though they now sell the TiVo service in Canada. They wouldn't even sell me a replacement Peanut when my original peanut died. But that's a subject for another thread: )



CrispyCritter said:


> Dale, you're normally quite reasonable, but I think you're way off base on this one. The changes in the agreement would be large.
> 
> Your cases here are not comparable at all. What happens in the event of a confirmed breach (eg transfer of qualifying unit to someone else)? In the one case, they will automatically increase the rate of *future* payments by $6 (and TiVo will eat the cost of the current month increase). In the other, they have to take pre-paid money that there was an agreement as to what it was to be used for (service until June 2009 for example), and use it for something else instead (service until August 2008, say). That's theft, unless both parties have explicitly agreed in advance as to what will happen, and what will trigger it happening. I can easily see a doubling in size of the MSD agreement, and increased disputes between TiVo and customers as they argue about some event that may have happened a year in the past.


Balls to that Crispy! In the event of breach, there is already agreement as to what happens when a customer breaches. The same result as when anyone breaches. TiVo shuts down service to BOTH units and keeps the money. It's that easy!!!

...Dale


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## rdrrepair

Dajad said:


> rdrrepair,
> 
> You are brilliant!


Dale, can I use that in my signature profile? 

Anyway, If they won't sell you a card then send me a check, let it clear and I'll buy you one at a Circuit City, Best Buy or TiVo.com


----------



## Adam1115

c3 said:


> If you people really want to prepay for MSD, just get a gift card. A $300 card would last 43 months.


Excellent! This completely solves my problem.

I don't even need 3 years, as I would only pre-pay for that long to get a bigger discount.

But I like it.. buy a hundred bucks and let it ride until it runs out...


----------



## CrispyCritter

Dajad said:


> Balls to that Crispy! In the event of breach, there is already agreement as to what happens when a customer breaches. The same result as when anyone breaches. TiVo shuts down service to BOTH units and keeps the money. It's that easy!!!


Baloney! Please tell me where that is indicated in the current contract language. Answer: it isn't in there yet; it would have to be added. Yes, if there's a legal finding of breach of contract, *then* TiVo *might* get to keep the money. But they can't arbitrarily declare breach of contract themselves based upon criteria not spelled out and just appropriate the money without going through some sort of legal procedure with the user, unless it's in the contract that they can. And it's not there yet.

You wouldn't want that to be the contract either. Again, the scenario of a monthly user paying $12.95 for a qualifying unit that breaks down right after prepaying for 3 years. You're saying it's fair to the user that they immediately lose all service and the 3-year prepay? I certainly hope you don't regard that as fair!


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## classicsat

CrispyCritter said:


> It's not that simple. What does TiVo do when you have a qualifying unit, for which you're paying $12.95 monthly, that breaks, and you decide to stop service on it? Stop service on your MSD unit as well? I would certainly object to that!
> 
> All of this has to be spelled out in advance.


Would a credit "point" system be any simpler? You buy a bunch of points up-front, and the various bundle/service/msd plans deduct a certain amont of points from your "pool" of points. If you drop the main service box, one of the MSD boxes would start pulling the equivalent of $6.00 of points more from the pool.

Or, as TiVo has it, simply no prepay for MSD.


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## 1283

rdrrepair said:


> Go to this site  and buy two gift cards. One for $200.00 and one for $50.00. You now own a $250 credit with TiVo.


As far as I know, only one gift card can be used per activation.


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## HDTiVo

dswallow said:


> You could probably solve more than half your complaints if you sought treatment for the paranoid delusions first.


The problem is getting past the CIA agents on the way into the clinic.


----------



## HDTiVo

CrispyCritter said:


> TiVo has reduced the 1-year contract back down to $16.95 (but listed as a sale price now - they also put the 1 year contract on sale for $179). So your first option is now down to $30.85.


Wow, they couldn't hold the $19.95 for 2 weeks.


----------



## Dajad

CrispyCritter said:


> Baloney! Please tell me where that is indicated in the current contract language. Answer: it isn't in there yet; it would have to be added. Yes, if there's a legal finding of breach of contract, *then* TiVo *might* get to keep the money. But they can't arbitrarily declare breach of contract themselves based upon criteria not spelled out and just appropriate the money without going through some sort of legal procedure with the user, unless it's in the contract that they can. And it's not there yet.
> 
> You wouldn't want that to be the contract either. Again, the scenario of a monthly user paying $12.95 for a qualifying unit that breaks down right after prepaying for 3 years. You're saying it's fair to the user that they immediately lose all service and the 3-year prepay? I certainly hope you don't regard that as fair!


Dig Deeper Crispy ... the MRD document is not the only document/Contract. TiVo's general terms of service, incorporated into that document by reference, would permit TiVo to terminate the service on the customer's breach. And, yes, I would want that in the contract. The new fees don't run with the life of the unit, as the old fees do, so the prepaids can be transferred to a new unit if the first one breaks - these units have warranties too. And, I'll remind you, if the unit was out of warranty, the lifetime service (a prepaid service) terminated with the death of a TiVo. This is all internally consistent.

...Dale


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## CrispyCritter

Dajad said:


> Dig Deeper Crispy ... the MRD document is not the only document/Contract. TiVo's general terms of service, incorporated into that document by reference, would permit TiVo to terminate the service on the customer's breach. And, yes, I would want that in the contract. The new fees don't run with the life of the unit, as the old fees do, so the prepaids can be transferred to a new unit if the first one breaks - these units have warranties too. And, I'll remind you, if the unit was out of warranty, the lifetime service (a prepaid service) terminated with the death of a TiVo. This is all internally consistent.


I'm not debating whether TiVo can eventually get the user declared in breach of contract and get to keep some portion of the prepayment. They can. But that's a legal procedure that they have to go through, which will include notification of the user, chance for the user to respond, and adjudication of damages. When a contract is breached, the injured party does not get to determine the consequences for the breach.

In this particular case, I would be very surprised if TiVo could keep all the prepayment. My understanding is the laws of California would require pro-rating of some sort.

Breach of contract is not the big stick you seem to think it is. For instance, TiVo could not now get away with stopping service to all lifetime TiVos that have been disk upgraded, despite the fact that the owners are in breach of contract.

There is nothing in the current contract that says that TiVo gets to keep all the prepayment, and breach of contract does not give them that right to exercise arbitrarily. They need more language in the contract to handle MSD prepayments.


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## rdrrepair

c3 said:


> As far as I know, only one gift card can be used per activation.


You're not following the logic. The logic is the Holy Grail of the 3 yr plan. People want a discount for the 3yrs with a pre-pay option. Pre-pay 250 for the 2 cards and tell them you want to be on a 3yr plan. Use the 50.00 up first and then tell them to put the 200.00 on the next gift card. The magic is in the amount.

250.20 is a 36 month "Pre-pay plan". By telling yourself that the pre-pay plan is 250.20 for 3yrs you "have your cake and eat it too". The person makes his one credit card payment for the reduced rate of 250.00 and he gets 3 yrs of service.

It doesn't matter when or how you use the card - you bought 3yrs pre-paid with the credit card - you will use the gift card.

If this is too much to follow then buy the 300.00 card and tell them you want to be on the 3yr plan. At the end of 3yrs you would have paid them on $250.20 from the 3.00 card.

It's the same for all those people out there who set the alarm clock 10 minutes early so they are never late for work. The time is wrong-they get there on time. This is a way for anyone who want to only pay once and still get the discount of a multi-year discount of 6.95 per month.

Me saying 3yrs for $250.20 is the same thing as telling someone to buy a gift card for 300.00 and put yourself on the 3yr plan. After 3yrs you will keep getting money taken off of your card until it's depleted. You still only paid 250.20 for 3yrs.

If you don't want the 6.95 charge every month then just buy the giftcards and tell them your going to pay for 3yrs per month with the gift cards. Very simple for everyone.


----------



## TiVo Troll

Adam1115 said:


> The current situation is ridiculous.


Perhaps, but TiVo has chosen it, even though all us geniuses are woikin' like hell to give 'em deez poifect solutions.
---
TiVo's does have a policy to repair dead Lifetimed units for $150 for an original HD, even when the failed HD is an upgraded large one.
---
I'd like to see Lifetime Service available at whatever price TiVo needs to equal term-service revenue when averaged out. I'd also like to see a Lifetime Service transfer option for a price akin to the S3 VIP deal, but available for any TiVo.

Lifetime Service availability would be a sales asset for TiVo, even if few users chose it at the offered selling price. The price for Lifetime would automatically illustrate the value of pay-as-you-go TiVo service, and would be the direct opposite of cable company pricing which basically only rents service.


----------



## 1283

rdrrepair said:


> You're not following the logic. The logic is the Holy Grail of the 3 yr plan. People want a discount for the 3yrs with a pre-pay option. Pre-pay 250 for the 2 cards and tell them you want to be on a 3yr plan. Use the 50.00 up first and then tell them to put the 200.00 on the next gift card. The magic is in the amount.


A gift card can be used only at the time of new activation, and only one card can be used. How do you apply two cards to the same subscription?

From the FAQ:


> *Can I use more than one TiVo service gift card to pay for TiVo service on a single box?*
> No. You can only use one TiVo service gift card per new TiVo service activation.
> 
> *I already have TiVo service. Can I use a TiVo service gift card toward my current monthly service subscription?*
> No. TiVo service gift cards can only be used to activate NEW TiVo service-only plans. TiVo service gift cards cannot be used as a credit for an existing TiVo service account.


----------



## Adam1115

c3 said:


> A gift card can be used only at the time of new activation, and only one card can be used. How do you apply two cards to the same subscription?
> 
> From the FAQ:


Isn't activating a second tivo a new subscription??


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## 1283

Adam1115 said:


> Isn't activating a second tivo a new subscription??


Yes. rdrrepair was talking about getting two gift cards totalling $250. I'm saying that cannot be done. Pick *one card* for prepay.


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## dswallow

So a TiVo gift card isn't really a good gift to give someone who already has a TiVo... unless they're wanting another TiVo.

OK.


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## 1283

Keep in mind that some packages at www.tivo.com come with gift card (MSD available), and some are available as pre-activated only (no MSD).


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## 1283

dswallow said:


> So a TiVo gift card isn't really a good gift to give someone who already has a TiVo... unless they're wanting another TiVo.


or able to cancel without early termination fee.


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## rdrrepair

c3 said:


> Yes. rdrrepair was talking about getting two gift cards totalling $250. I'm saying that cannot be done. Pick *one card* for prepay.


Now that I see you can only use 1 card at a time then the best plan out there is 300.00 gift card with a MSD for anyone who doesn't want to have a reoccurring charge every month on their charge card. I was trying to point out to people that you really don't need to have your charge card on file with TiVo or have a reoccurring charge every month.

$250.20 seems to be what everyone is hanging their hat on. It made "cents" to use 2 cards to get to 250.00 and to tell the truth I thought you could use them both... So, now that you know you can't, just pre-pay the 300.00 for 43 months (3yrs - 7 months) and when the plan runs out you will have a 1.15 credit.

Riddle me this friends... If, you're on the 3yr plan months 37-43 should be charge out at the 6.95 rate... or, will it be the current 3yr rate per month in 3yrs? Hmm... still, you'll get the magic 3yrs for 250.20

Now, if you do sell your other box or give this one away or Ebay it, you will loose the cheaper 6.95 rate and it'll go up to the non MSD rate.

* I don't want a 6.95 charge on my credit card every month.
* I want to just pay 250.20 and be done with it.
* I'll leave TiVo if I can't pre-pay for 3 yrs.

Once you point out the 300.00 gift card and tell them to pre-pay then all of the above complaints fall flat.


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## juanian

Here's a question: What happens if the cash on a gift card runs out (or if a normal credit card is refused)? Do you get a TiVo message saying that your payment source needs updating, or is your service just cut off?

I, too, think the gift card idea is a good way to handle the monthly payment for those who don't normally have monthly charges/payments on a credit card. (One of my credit cards is from my credit union, and the card balance is automatically paid each month at the end of the billing cycle (from another account), so I don't even need to send a check to pay my card.)


----------



## 1283

rdrrepair said:


> I was trying to point out to people that you really don't need to have your charge card on file with TiVo or have a reoccurring charge every month.


You still need to have a credit/debit card on file.



rdrrepair said:


> Riddle me this friends... If, you're on the 3yr plan months 37-43 should be charge out at the 6.95 rate... or, will it be the current 3yr rate per month in 3yrs?


Based on the following description and applying the $6 discount, I think it's $6.95 *or lower*. I believe the "whichever is the lower rate" portion was added recently.



> For those TiVo Service Only Payment Plans purchased after 11/4/06, after the end of your monthly or prepaid commitment period, as applicable, TiVo will continue to charge you on a monthly basis at the current rate that you are paying (excluding promotional rates), or at the then applicable-rate for one (1), two (2), or three (3) year monthly TiVo Service based on whether your original commitment period was for one (1), two (2), or three (3) years, *whichever is the lower rate*.


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## rdrrepair

c3 said:


> Based on the following description and applying the $6 discount, I think it's $6.95 *or lower*. I believe the "whichever is the lower rate" portion was added recently.


Just wait until everyone that took advantage of the 199 lifetime transfers starts getting billed the current 1 yr rate -6.00 at the end of the year.

I asked TiVo to cancel my subscription at the end of the one year. I was told that I would have to cancel that at the end of the year myself. Looks like wiggle room for TiVo to get more per month from anyone not keeping track or is behind in their credit card statement.


----------



## CrispyCritter

c3 said:


> Based on the following description and applying the $6 discount, I think it's $6.95 *or lower*. I believe the "whichever is the lower rate" portion was added recently.


Good catch, I think you're right. But I don't think it will get anybody a rate under $6.95. I think it's designed for all those people who got packages with a 1-year commitment at $12.95. A strict interpretation of the previous language would imply that once the year is up, the base rate would change to $19.95, which would be a shock! I suspect TiVo got questions from folks and clarified.


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## KurtisFish

Keep Tivo prices the same!


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## Dajad

rdrrepair said:


> Now that I see you can only use 1 card at a time then the best plan out there is 300.00 gift card with a MSD for anyone who doesn't want to have a reoccurring charge every month on their charge card. I was trying to point out to people that you really don't need to have your charge card on file with TiVo or have a reoccurring charge every month.
> 
> $250.20 seems to be what everyone is hanging their hat on. It made "cents" to use 2 cards to get to 250.00 and to tell the truth I thought you could use them both... So, now that you know you can't, just pre-pay the 300.00 for 43 months (3yrs - 7 months) and when the plan runs out you will have a 1.15 credit.
> 
> Riddle me this friends... If, you're on the 3yr plan months 37-43 should be charge out at the 6.95 rate... or, will it be the current 3yr rate per month in 3yrs? Hmm... still, you'll get the magic 3yrs for 250.20
> 
> Now, if you do sell your other box or give this one away or Ebay it, you will loose the cheaper 6.95 rate and it'll go up to the non MSD rate.
> 
> * I don't want a 6.95 charge on my credit card every month.
> * I want to just pay 250.20 and be done with it.
> * I'll leave TiVo if I can't pre-pay for 3 yrs.
> 
> Once you point out the 300.00 gift card and tell them to pre-pay then all of the above complaints fall flat.


Thanks Rdrepair for all the hard work and thinking. But, after the $300 runs out, because these cards can ONLY be used on initial activiation, I'd be back having to pay $6.95 a month again because I couldn't buy and use another gift card then. Ugh!!!

For now, I've chosen to do the eSata Expansion on my S3. I would still like to get an S2 so I have something to reliably record my digital TV channels (in Canada I cannot use cablecards). But, I'll keep using my old S1 in manual mode for that for now I guess.

...Dale


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## 1283

Dajad said:


> after the $300 runs out, because these cards can ONLY be used on initial activiation, I'd be back having to pay $6.95 a month again because I couldn't buy and use another gift card then.


Cancel and re-subscribe, but I don't think you need to plan >3 years ahead.


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## Dajad

I don't see how that is possible as a resubscription is NOT an initial setup of a new unit - which is, what I recall, required to use the gift cards.


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## 1283

Dajad said:


> I don't see how that is possible as a resubscription is NOT an initial setup of a new unit - which is, what I recall, required to use the gift cards.


After a subscription is canceled, you can sign up again as a new subscription with gift card.


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## juanian

Maybe I missed something, but couldn't you buy a 'generic' gift card (like a Visa gift card), then use *that* card as the credit card on file for the 6.95 payment? (Just remember to get a new gift card when the first one runs out!) Wouldn't a generic gift card work just as well as an actual credit card? Of course, the gift card would need to work as a credit card (and not as a debit card, which would require a PIN number).

Now, some gift cards charge a fee when they are bought, but I'm sure that some can be purchased without a $3-$5 fee if you look around.


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## AFP1

Einselen said:


> Yeah I wonder how that will all work out. Seems as though you need to call in at or near the end of your 1 yr and talk to the CSR or even Sup and say here is what Pony said could happen, will it happen. Then if they give it to you, yay you! If not then you gotta decide what you wanna do in extending contract or what. At that point might as well get a new box too.


It seems like this Post keeps being deleted for some reason?? Maybe because it may make people think?? It can never be found seperately, so I will try replying with it!

One thing I have noticed in all the Posts I have read Regarding "Prepaying for 3 Years", is that nowhere have I seen where anyone has made any comment regarding "Basic Business Concepts/Practices", which are the real reasons Tivo even offers Prepay to begin with! 
Actually, Tivo would rather we all Pay upfront, and the reasons why they even offer it, are Not because it only makes Bookeeping a little easier! It is only because they will Profit more in the long run, just like all large Companies! 
One of the Major reasons are that inevitable Competition will most probably arrive on the scene soon! And in almost all Competitive situations, Competition always brings with it Price reductions, only because any/all Companies competing will do anything they initially can to steal Market Share!! You see it with other items every Day! Especially if Funded well, a Company may even Lose Money to steal people at first!
Plus, The way Tivo changes their pricing up and down on both Units and Subscriptions, (on what almost seems to be a Weekly basis!), a Year or 2 from now the prices just might be less in trying to keep Customers, *even without any competition as the cost of just watching TV alone for an average Family or Person is becomming a Major Monthly Expense! It is just too easy today to order PPV, or Unbox Movies! Just press the Button if Bored! Plus the Kids love it!
The Price has to stay the same or go down. It cannot go much higher, or nobody will purchase it. 
And Forgetting the Price of an HDTV + an HD DVR itself to take full advantage of what you are Paying for, Between just Cable/Satelite prices, Upgrades which most have, if Prepaid a Monthly % of 3 Yr. Tivo Charges, a percentage of your DSL payments if Networked, (Biz wise, and your Budget is like a Business, You must consider a portion of your DSL Charge as being a "TV Related Expense," as most people probably will use their DSL more for Tivo than they do for their Computer and/or other items like Verizon Phones etc.) Then add on even just a few PPV charges, plus Rent or Purchase just a few Movies and/or Shows with "Unbox" per Month, Then it now really becomes quite costly, and I feel they will then need to start either cutting out extra's, or get rid of Tivo completely if the Prices go much higher! And for some people, as in my case, the only reason I even have a Home Phone is because of Tivo! That is another unnecessary expense for them and myself. I can do just fine with my Cell Phone and Wi Fi for the Computer if not for Tivo! OK, my situation does not apply everywhere. 
But we already see a Family of 4 receiving yet another Bill each Month that totals a Min of $100.00 just for their TV alone with only basic services! But in reality, by most probably adding some/all of what is listed above, it will probably be closer to $200.00+ a Month, and with the Economy the way it is, people already need to cut expenses, and what goes first? Forms of Entertainment, A Basically unnecessary added expense. Hey, they will not shut down their A/C or Heat as a Trade Off! That is more of a necessity than a leisure item. 
Here is just another Very Minor item I'll mention, The US Dollar most likely will also most likely be worth less in value 3 Years from now, just as it was worth more in value 3 Years ago, and the 3 before that! And Gov't Cost of Living percentages given out really are not near what your Increase actually is. Just look as Gas and Food alone for an example. Gas alone would easilly cover the small 3% increase they report Yearly alone! *But that is only a Perk compared to the other main reasons they like to be paid upfront. 
Also, they know that once you prepay, you are then locked into both Tivo as your Providor, plus you already paid for those 3 Yrs on Contract! You can't change Companies if/when they come out or you will lose your Money as per their TOS. 
And just hypothetically speaking, what if with competition, Tivo ended up "Going Out of Biz" for either Competition or the Economys sake?? You have already Paid, and you know there will/can be no Rebates, as they will surely File Bankruptcy and being your Money is not sitting in an Escrow Account, we would just lose our remaining prepaid Money!! That risk is especially high at this time, when every Man, Woman and Child in America averages out to being $8,000.00 in Debt! We also could be in another major War tomorrow! Throw in Iran and S. Korea, and our Economy will be terrible!
Also, by Paying by the Month on their 3 Yr. Plan, if you instead took that $299 and placed it into just a simple 5% CD that is *Compounded Daily, instead of saving $166.20, (the actual difference listed by prepaying), you are now really saving less than $100.00 over those 3 Yrs, not $166.20 as the numbers read! (The Equation used to figure the exact Compounded Interest I don't have, as the Teller I spoke with didn't have it.) So technically you will almost come out the same either way, but you need not lay out your Money 3 Years in advance! And Finally the best of Tivos available options, Tivo as a Company if they are like most others, actually want you to prepay so they can Invest the available Money, (Just how Banks and many other Companies can Earn a large portion of their overall Profits) So if Invested smartly, they then will Profit a lot more! Plus they will never get just a 5% Basic Interest Rate, considering the Amount they are able to Invest in Stocks, Bonds etc. Millions of $$ get better % Rates than Thousands, like we may have, even when placed in safe investments!
Summing up, OK, yes, you "may" save a bit of money initially, but if you invested that $299.00 instead, maybe you would Profit!! But instead you are laying out your Money in advance, and taking the risk that things may remain the same. But just look at the initial S3 price compared to now! It's about 30% less, and now has 2 Tuners!
Now I know I will now get Tons of arguements, but that is "Basic Business Practice 101" Face it or not! So "I will not reply only to argue senselessly". *Numbers don't give opinions, only Facts!
Just Think about it! You can always Trade Up, but you cannot go back down!


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> It seems like this Post keeps being deleted for some reason?? Maybe because it may make people think?? It can never be found seperately, so I will try replying with it!


You mean this post? or perhaps this post? The only thing it makes me think is that your search skills are as bad as your composition skills. Seriously, stop spamming this thing, and for crying out loud, learn how to break up paragraphs.


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## AFP1

Dajad said:


> I don't see how that is possible as a resubscription is NOT an initial setup of a new unit - which is, what I recall, required to use the gift cards.


Unfortunately, Tivo never spelled out All the Rules about Gift Cards when they introduced them! Basically, they were intended to be used as "Gifts to others" to gain new customers. Not to play games with already created Subscriptions. But they never explained that completely. They probably figured we would all just understand, and not even think to try and save with them already being a Member.


----------



## AFP1

Martin Tupper said:


> You mean this post? or perhaps this post? The only thing it makes me think is that your search skills are as bad as your composition skills. Seriously, stop spamming this thing, and for crying out loud, learn how to break up paragraphs.


First, I am not Spamming, as I am sorry I could not find them!
Secondly, I do use paragraphs, but this system places everything on the left side when published. You may not notice because all you give are 1 line answers, or mainly I should say comments.


----------



## AFP1

You mean this post? or perhaps this post ? The only thing it makes me think is that your search skills are as bad as your composition skills. Seriously, stop spamming this thing, and for crying out loud, learn how to break up paragraphs.


Learn yourself!! See what I am talking about?? So, don't talk about my Composition skills, as I am sure I can write circles around you!!
"and for crying out loud, learn how to break up paragraphs." *Should be another sentence!


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> First, I am not Spamming, as I am sorry I could not find them!
> Secondly, I do use paragraphs, but this system places everything on the left side when published. You may not notice because all you give are 1 line answers, or mainly I should say comments.


It is not difficult to crack the secret of separating paragraphs.


Spoiler



Just hit the "Enter" key twice.



See.

As far as my comments/answers are concerned, what can I say? Brevity is the soul of wit.


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> Learn yourself!! See what I am talking about?? So, don't talk about my Composition skills, as I am sure I can write circles around you!!
> "and for crying out loud, learn how to break up paragraphs." *Should be another sentence!


Begin a sentence with "and"?? Philistine!!


----------



## AFP1

Dajad said:


> I don't see how that is possible as a resubscription is NOT an initial setup of a new unit - which is, what I recall, required to use the gift cards.


 The main problem here, is everyone is trying to play games with something they really understand what the purpose is for to begin with! Gaining New Customers! A Gift Card is suppossed to be given to someone as a Gift. Not to help you save upon Re-Subbing! That should be another completely different matter brought up to Tivo for review.
That is a topic that has always annoyed me. New Members always get better Deals than people that have paid for Years! Cable/Sat. is the same. Cable costs me $55 a Month W/Tax, let's say about $48.00 W/O. But New Customers can get the same for $30.00 Mo. for a whole Year now I think, as of the last commercial I saw anyway. (Maybe that was for DSL??) 
But in either case, they get better numbers to pay than we do!

(PS- 3 Paragraphs used here, to Wise Guy Marty!! Now they will be shoved left as all others upon Publishing!)


----------



## AFP1

Martin Tupper said:


> Begin a sentence with "and"?? Philistine!!


 Whoa!
"Philistine" Such a big Word for a "4th Grayde Gradiatte"! Is that your "Word of the Day"?? Funny, but you look nothing like an English Major! And, it was not I who started that Sentence with "and", it was you!! It was a quote from you as well!! You being a Philistine would be a step up!!


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## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> *Numbers don't give opinions, only Facts!


Numbers can create opinions...
the number of times it appears and the number of unformatted paragraphs and number of run on sentences form my opinion of that post


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## AFP1

Loud-Mouthed Schnook
A Man who really knows himself!!


----------



## Joules1111

I never thought a thread on the "Fall 2006 Pricing Changes" would get this fun.


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> Whoa!
> "Philistine" Such a big Word for a "4th Grayde Gradiatte"! Is that your "Word of the Day"?? And, it was not I who started that Sentence with "and", it was you!! It was a quote as well!! Philistine!


As your quote clearly shows, I didn't start a sentence with the word "and". I formed a compound sentence by using the word "and" as a conjunction. Students looking for more information on this technique are encouraged to read more on the subject here.

By the way, what's the deal with the random capitalization?


----------



## AFP1

ZeoTiVo said:


> Numbers can create opinions...
> the number of times it appears and the number of unformatted paragraphs and number of run on sentences form my opinion of that post


And your last comment has proven my opinion of you as a person in general!
The problem is if Zeo cannot find something to argue about in the Post, he tries any other way to try to make a person look like a fool. Talk about Formatting a Sentence? Just read the short 2 lines you wrote above. You don't even use capital letters, comma's, periods etc.! Not to mention "Run on sentences!

ZEOQUOTE: 
"Numbers can create opinions...
the number of times it appears and the number of unformatted paragraphs and number of run on sentences form my opinion of that post"
Zeo


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## AFP1

Martin Tupper said:


> As your quote clearly shows, I didn't start a sentence with the word "and". I formed a compound sentence by using the word "and" as a conjunction. Students looking for more information on this technique are encouraged to read more on the subject here.
> 
> By the way, what's the deal with the random capitalization?


This is not English 101 Marty,Zeo or whoever Posted this, which you are badly in need of! Random Caps are just a habit I have that makes a point more obvious, the same way they do it in all Advertisments in Newspapers etc. I have been in Advertising for a long time, and it has helped tremendously over the Years. It is even taught that way when taking any Class on Advertising! Now, I will place you on "ignore", as nothing you have to say means anything but a waste of my time reading it. 
*AND now, you have learned something new! But you will forget it in 2 mins. anyway!


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> And your last comment has proven my opinion of you as a person in general!


Actually I just agree with Martin Tupper that posting the same post in multiple places in just not helpful to the forum. Further, writing the post in a style that makes it unbearable to read also does not help your efforts to progress the discussion of a topic. Lastly, your continued personal insults that are juvenile in nature and a clear violation of forum rules clearly marks you as someone who brings the entire forum down instead of being seen as a productive contributor.

the word for the day is "[email protected]", you should do a search on it.


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## AFP1

ZeoTiVo said:


> Actually I just agree with Martin Tupper that posting the same post in multiple places in just not helpful to the forum. Further, writing the post in a style that makes it unbearable to read also does not help your efforts to progress the discussion of a topic. Lastly, your continued personal insults that are juvenile in nature and a clear violation of forum rules clearly marks you as someone who brings the entire forum down instead of being seen as a productive contributor.
> 
> the word for the day is "[email protected]", you should do a search on it.


I have NEVER insulted anyone who didn't insult me first. You should know that especially Zeo, as you are the one that does it most often! But I shall see no more!!
IGGY Time!


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> The main problem here, is everyone is trying to play games with something they really understand what the purpose is for to begin with! Gaining *n*ew *c*ustomers! A *g*ift *c*ard is suppossed to be given to someone as a *g*ift. Not to help you save upon *r*e-*s*ubbing! That should be another completely different matter brought up to Tivo for review.
> 
> That is a topic that has always annoyed me. New *m*embers always get better *d*eals than people that have paid for years! Cable/Sat. is the same. Cable costs me $55 a *m*onth *w* /*t*ax, let's say about $48.00 *w/o*. But *n*ew *c*ustomers can get the same for $30.00 *m*o. for a whole *y*ear now I think, as of the last commercial I saw anyway. (Maybe that was for DSL??)
> 
> But in either case, they get better numbers to pay than we do!
> 
> (PS- 3 Paragraphs used here, to Wise Guy Marty!! Now they will be shoved left as all others upon Publishing!)


Fixed your post.

All kidding aside, separating your paragraphs and following standards regarding capitalization would make your posts more readable. Many readers will simply not take the effort to wade through it to find out if you've made any worthwhile points.


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## bicker

That's true. I skip of them now, as a matter of course.


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## AFP1

"Actually I just agree with Martin Tupper that posting the same post in multiple places in just not helpful to the forum."

I totally agree, and basically apologized because I could not find them! You would have seen that if you read that Post completely! But that's the problem, you only read what you can twist!!


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## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> Whoa!
> "Philistine" Such a big Word for a "4th Grayde Gradiatte"! Is that your "Word of the Day"?? Funny, but you look nothing like an English Major! And, it was not I who started that Sentence with "and", it was you!! It was a quote from you as well!! You being a Philistine would be a step up!!


this is the reply post to Martin I reported.


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## timckelley

AFP1 has threadcrapped all over this thread (and not mention that many of his grammatical corrections were incorrect).


----------



## AFP1

Martin Tupper said:


> Fixed your post.
> 
> All kidding aside, separating your paragraphs and following standards regarding capitalization would make your posts more readable. Many readers will simply not take the effort to wade through it to find out if you've made any worthwhile points.


 Please, Teach me ways other than what have earned me a nice living for Years! I am so sorry it messes with your Mind, but last time I was in School, a Noun, (People, Places or Things) are to be capitalized, and most of my Capitalized Words are Nouns. I admit some are not, but placed there by habit to make a point Clearer! 
I am not saying it is proper English, but who in America speaks proper English?
How many speak English period? You have made remarks numerous times Re: Paragraphs, which are there, but impossible to print here! They shove everything up against the left side as you can see in your own Posts! And who really cares?
If I answer a question, that is all they care about! Not just sit here bickering each Day over nonsense.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> "Actually I just agree with Martin Tupper that posting the same post in multiple places in just not helpful to the forum."
> 
> I totally agree, and basically apologized because I could not find them! You would have seen that if you read that Post completely! But that's the problem, you only read what you can twist!!


so why not start with a reply like this instead of one in which you decide I am trying to make you look like a fool. I have no intention of *making* you look like a fool. I just think it would be better if your opinions on the thread topic were clear to read without all the personal junk getting in the way.

Basically the process is to comment on the post and its contents. You can completely disagree and indeed be sarcastic and rip the post apart but keep the personal insults like "4th grade graduate" out of it. That way, in theory, you should still be on track as to the original thread topic instead of having veered way off topic like we have in these last few posts.

I do this for the continued diversity of the forum, but frankly if you continue posting the way you have been then you will just end up killing threads off instead of getting any of your opinions or information across to others.


----------



## AFP1

ZeoTiVo said:


> this is the reply post to Martin I reported.


Than I apologize to Martin!! Where the quote came from was not clear.


----------



## Joules1111

AFP1 said:


> Please, Teach me ways other than what have earned me a nice living for Years! I am so sorry it messes with your Mind, but last time I was in School, a Noun, (People, Places or Things) are to be capitalized, and most of my Capitalized Words are Nouns. I admit some are not, but placed there by habit to make a point Clearer!


Proper nouns are capitalized, not just any old noun. I'm a mass communications major, and at NO time in any of my advertising classes did they say we were allowed to randomly capitalize. It might be different in an advertising campaign, but then this isn't an advertising campaign.


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> Please, Teach me ways other than what have earned me a nice living for Years! I am so sorry it messes with your Mind, but last time I was in School, a Noun, (People, Places or Things) are to be capitalized, and most of my Capitalized Words are Nouns. I admit some are not, but placed there by habit to make a point Clearer!


I believe you are thinking of _proper _nouns. You aren't supposed to capitalize _all _nouns.

Kudos for your lucrative advertising career. This, however isn't an advertisement. It's an online forum. The gimmicks you use to catch someones eye in a print ad actually make your points _less_ clear in your posts here.



AFP1 said:


> I am not saying it is proper English, but who in America speaks proper English?
> How many speak English period? You have made remarks numerous times Re: Paragraphs, which are there, but impossible to print here! They shove everything up against the left side as you can see in your own Posts! And who really cares?
> If I answer a question, that is all they care about! Not just sit here bickering each Day over nonsense.


I'm not merely nitpicking. We all misspell the occasional word, or forget a comma every now and then. However, your unique style of posting makes it less likely that your posts will be read by others. It is actually detracting from your message, not clarifying it.

Your are correct that you cannot indent paragraphs. So why not use block paragraphs? When you get to the end of a paragraph, hit "Enter" twice. That is what everyone else seems to be doing.


----------



## AFP1

ZEOQUOTE: "I do this for the continued diversity of the forum"


Nah Zeo, You do what you do, only because you are you! As stated, you most probably didn't even understand the Post (If read completely) when it comes down to Basic Business. So instead, you decided to try and make fun of Grammer, when you have no clue about it yourself. Plus it really makes no difference here. If I were to pick apart every Post like that, I would be here all Day! But I don't, only because it makes no difference if I get a needed answer or not! I am not here to belittle others for small items. 
** PARAGRAPH **
I may debate items I may disagree with, but not in the way things were spelled, capped, paragraphed etc. That means nothing to the end gain if you get a correct answer. In other Words, "The means are justified by the ends" 
PARAGRAPH
The End!


----------



## Martin Tupper

AFP1 said:


> Than I apologize to Martin!! Where the quote came from was not clear.


The fact that you capitalized that correctly shows me that you really mean it <sniffle>

Although you did use "Than" where you should have used "Then".


----------



## jlb

Joules1111 said:


> I never thought a thread on the "Fall 2006 Pricing Changes" would get this fun.


Agreed. Maybe we should lock this thread......It's value related to the original intent is diminishing rapidly.....


----------



## bicker

No. Maybe "we" should delete the stupidity, going back a page or two, and then have this very useful thread remain (perhaps then locked, since it is getting a bit hold) as a useful resource for future reference.


----------



## AFP1

Martin Tupper said:


> I believe you are thinking of _proper _nouns. You aren't supposed to capitalize _all _nouns.
> 
> Kudos for your lucrative advertising career. This, however isn't an advertisement. It's an online forum. The gimmicks you use to catch someones eye in an print ad actually make your points _less_ clear in your posts here.
> 
> I'm not merely nitpicking. We all misspell the occasional word, or forget a comma every now and then. However, your unique style of posting makes it less likely that your posts will be read by others. It is actually detracting from your message, not clarifying it.
> 
> Your are correct that you cannot indent paragraphs. So why not use block paragraphs? When you get to the end of a paragraph, hit "Enter" twice. That is what everyone else seems to be doing.


Sorry, but I didn't realize "That's what everyone else seems to be doing" nor do I normally just follow the crowd on everything like most anyway! That is why I have always been successful in Business. I did the opposite of my competitors. They did things for 20 Yrs. THEIR way, but MY way turned out better, as I learned about Marketing first. I didn't just open a Store, and follow all others like they all did. But all this makes no difference here. As stated, it's only a habit I have because of what I do mostly. Sorry, and I admit it's wrong used here!

But I also feel that all of this is totally unnecessary! *Especially here. This is Tivo Talk, **Not English 101! And I don't just write 1 liners like most. So if you cannot understand it, I feel something else is wrong besides what's mentioned. But that is not the real reason here. "Zeo" has just loved to pick apart every Post I and others have made. So this time, being he had no idea what I was talking about, and not due to the grammar, he decided like many other times to pick apart something else in the Post.
That is all. But it really makes no difference. I have read horribly written Posts, but can still understand what they are saying. I am sure you had no problem as well if you read my Post. But Zeo, that's another subject!! Maybe even Universe!


----------



## Martin Tupper

I've said my peace. If you wish to discuss it further, PM me.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> "Zeo" has just loved to pick apart every Post I and others have made. So this time, being he had no idea what I was talking about, and not due to the grammar, he decided like many other times to pick apart something else in the Post.


I have not read nor do I intend to read the post but others have expresed a desire for the thread to get back on track so I think my point has been clearly made as well.

ETA - ok, so I had to go back and look at this post of AFP1's the flap was about. So sue me for being human and not taking his personal insults lying down


----------



## AFP1

Joules1111 said:


> Proper nouns are capitalized, not just any old noun. I'm a mass communications major, and at NO time in any of my advertising classes did they say we were allowed to randomly capitalize. It might be different in an advertising campaign, but then this isn't an advertising campaign.


Thank You, Again!

But I think the point has been made, explained, and apologized for a few times already. So, I feel no need to continue this as if it were Tivo price increases, new units etc.


----------



## AFP1

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have not read nor do I intend to read the post but others have expresed a desire for the thread to get back on track so I think my point has been clearly made as well.


Yes Zeo, you are correct! Yet another useless point has been clearly made!
So get over it!!


----------



## AFP1

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have not read nor do I intend to read the post but others have expresed a desire for the thread to get back on track so I think my point has been clearly made as well.


Yes Zeo, Just as my point relating to your ignorance has also been clearly made!
How can you even comment if you never read the Post? Or, did you really mean to say you didn't "understand the Business end of prepaying??


----------



## Joules1111

AFP1 said:


> Thank You, Again!
> 
> But I think the point has been made, explained, and apologized for a few times already. So, I feel no need to continue this as if it were Tivo price increases, new units etc.


Could you just put the people on ignore like you said you would so we could get on with this already?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

AFP1 said:


> Also, by Paying by the Month on their 3 Yr. Plan, if you instead took that $299 and placed it into just a simple 5% CD that is *Compounded Daily, instead of saving $166.20, (the actual difference listed by prepaying), you are now really saving less than $100.00 over those 3 Yrs, not $166.20 as the numbers read! (The Equation used to figure the exact Compounded Interest I don't have, as the Teller I spoke with didn't have it.) So technically you will almost come out the same either way,


So I went to a web site  and asked for a daily compounded interest for 299 over 3 years and got
Daily compounding: 5.127% $347.38 
so you would make 48.38$ assuming you had another source of money you paid the monthly amount for the TiVo subscription with and left all the money in the account. At a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62. You would need a daily compound interest of 16% in order to break even on a 299$ prepay assuming you pay 12.95 a month otherwise.

so bottom line going with the 5% opportunity cost
if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal. I do not forsee the monthly sub on the first TiVo going below 9.65 in the next 3 years unless advertising or some other revenue really picks up for TiVo.


----------



## Einselen

ZeoTiVo said:


> So I went to a web site  and asked for a daily compounded interest for 299 over 3 years and got
> Daily compounding: 5.127% $347.38
> so you would make 48.38$ assuming you had another source of money you paid the monthly amount for the TiVo subscription with and left all the money in the account. At a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be 167.20 minus 48.38 or $116.62. You would need a daily compound interest of 16% in order to break even on a 299$ prepay assuming you pay 12.95 a month otherwise.
> 
> so bottom line going with the 5% opportunity cost
> if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal.


Ahhh yes AFP back with his fuzzy math. I agree with Zeo on the 347.38 amount, I used a Financial calculator (HP 10BII) to calculate this. I am not understanding though Zeo your second part of how you got the net loss of 167.20.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Einselen said:


> Ahhh yes AFP back with his fuzzy math. I agree with Zeo on the 347.38 amount, I used a Financial calculator (HP 10BII) to calculate this. I am not understanding though Zeo your second part of how you got the net loss of 167.20.


sorry. added parens to make it clearer



Zeo said:


> a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62.


----------



## Missmaxx

ZeoTiVo said:


> So I went to a web site  and asked for a daily compounded interest for 299 over 3 years and got
> Daily compounding: 5.127% $347.38
> so you would make 48.38$ assuming you had another source of money you paid the monthly amount for the TiVo subscription with and left all the money in the account. At a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62. You would need a daily compound interest of 16% in order to break even on a 299$ prepay assuming you pay 12.95 a month otherwise.
> 
> so bottom line going with the 5% opportunity cost
> if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal. I do not forsee the monthly sub on the first TiVo going below 9.65 in the next 3 years unless advertising or some other revenue really picks up for TiVo.


Where do you get Daily Compounding figures of $48.38 in Total income on $300 over 3 Yrs? If you were only paid basic Points @ 5 points Interest per Year, forgetting compounded Interest, you would still end up with $45.00. You are saying by compounding Daily, you only Earn another $2 and change over 3 Yrs?? Something is wrong with your Figure. Plus the main point of the Article was why they want you to prepay. If you are happy comming out maybe just a few Bucks ahead right now, all while they Profit on your Money, that is your choice!

Also, other factors were mentioned. Mainly like what if they reduce prices due to competition, which is right around the corner? That was a very good point. Satelitte has kept Cable from raising prices and themselves competing. Tivo has played with prices many times on their own already! The value of the Dollar today compared to 3 Yrs from now will be less as well. I didn't read the whole thing, but there is a lot of reasons to think first. As he said, you can always go up but cannot go down..


----------



## Missmaxx

Einselen said:


> Ahhh yes AFP back with his fuzzy math. I agree with Zeo on the 347.38 amount, I used a Financial calculator (HP 10BII) to calculate this. I am not understanding though Zeo your second part of how you got the net loss of 167.20.


I am very happy and impressed that you used a Financial calculator, Model (HP 10BII) But you could have used the Calculator on your Computer just as easilly.

One point I have is if buying a new s3, you have to lay out $900.00 if paid in advance. Many of us are Retired on fixed incomes, and although I can afford $12.95mo, I cannot afford to lay out another $300.00 on top of the $600.00 I can hardly afford to start with. Heck, I'll just buy the s2dt.


----------



## Missmaxx

Originally Posted by Zeo
a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62.


ZeoTiVo said:


> sorry. added parens to make it clearer


Or, $3.24 per Month, about 31 Cents per Day as your figures state, either right or wrong. For that, I think I will take my chances and pay monthly, while the other people Vacation in the Carribean with their savings. If any are left.


----------



## Missmaxx

nirisahn said:


> Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


You are correct in many ways. Only here, other items come into play such as Competition. But mainly I would say if it gets much higher in price, people will simply not subscribe, as 1 person noted, TV is getting to be a big expense.

In any Company like this at the start they sell a lot. It was the best gimmick to come along in a while now! But eventually, Sales will peter down as people have them or decide they don't use them as much as they thought they would. Or as mentioned, the comming of competition may cause a dip?? This is relatively new, and I have read where other companies are working on better systems.


----------



## Missmaxx

ZeoTiVo said:


> So I went to a web site  and asked for a daily compounded interest for 299 over 3 years and got
> Daily compounding: 5.127% $347.38
> so you would make 48.38$ assuming you had another source of money you paid the monthly amount for the TiVo subscription with and left all the money in the account. At a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62. You would need a daily compound interest of 16% in order to break even on a 299$ prepay assuming you pay 12.95 a month otherwise.
> 
> so bottom line going with the 5% opportunity cost
> if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal. I do not forsee the monthly sub on the first TiVo going below 9.65 in the next 3 years unless advertising or some other revenue really picks up for TiVo.


So your best option is to give Tivo $300.00 in advance, Lock yourself into using them for 3 Years, and hope things stay the same or go up. Just remember how many jumped from buildings in 1929 when they invested in advance thinking the same way. Any Basic Business course will tell you to always try to use others Money, never your own, just in the event of a problem. And in this instance, there are a few items that could be problematic. But that is why there are Apples and Oranges. Everyone likes different things, whether you think they are right or wrong.


----------



## Missmaxx

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have not read nor do I intend to read the post but others have expresed a desire for the thread to get back on track so I think my point has been clearly made as well.
> 
> ETA - ok, so I had to go back and look at this post of AFP1's the flap was about. So sue me for being human and not taking his personal insults lying down


Sorry, but I read this about 3,4 days a week, and each time I see arguments, it is you Zeo who normally starts them. Plus you never give up. You just keep it going and going like the Energizer Rabbit.


----------



## bicker

I think everyone who's been here more than a little while would confirm that Zeo and I don't see eye-to-eye on much -- so when we agree on something, as in this case, you can pretty-well rest-assured that there is something to what he's saying. I agree with you about Zeo's penchant for starting things, but THIS time he's in the right.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Missmaxx said:


> Where do you get Daily Compounding figures of $48.38 in Total income on $300 over 3 Yrs? If you were only paid basic Points @ 5 points Interest per Year, forgetting compounded Interest, you would still end up with $45.00. You are saying by compounding Daily, you only Earn another $2 and change over 3 Yrs?? Something is wrong with your Figure.


 well I posted the link to the web site I used for my numbers so others could compare. I also went to a few other sites and entered the same scenario and got the same data to within a dollar. 


> Plus the main point of the Article was why they want you to prepay. If you are happy comming out maybe just a few Bucks ahead right now, all while they Profit on your Money, that is your choice!


 of course there are many factors each person must weigh in their own decision. Notice I said
"if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal"
I did not say it was everybodies best option but just providing an accurate monthly amount to help anyone make their decision. As you pointed out some may not have 299$ upfront but would have 12.95 a month to spend. For myself, I paid monthly on my first TiVo for 4 or 5 months to make sure I liked the product before spending the 299$ on lifetime for it. I can well understand someone being leery of locking in for 3 years right off the bat. I just provided the financial numbers in my post to keep it concise and clear.



> Also, other factors were mentioned. Mainly like what if they reduce prices due to competition, which is right around the corner? That was a very good point. Satelitte has kept Cable from raising prices and themselves competing. Tivo has played with prices many times on their own already! The value of the Dollar today compared to 3 Yrs from now will be less as well. I didn't read the whole thing, but there is a lot of reasons to think first. As he said, you can always go up but cannot go down..


just what competition is right around the corner. The standalone DVR market is very hard to make a profit in and will take many, many years to finally reach that point. TiVo was started out of a passion for the innovative technology. Any new company would find MUCH better ROI in many other places. Also to this point competition is already here in the form of easy to lease cable or sat providers DVRs. Once you have the digital tier their leased box is significantly less expensive month to month. If TiVo could lower the monthly cost they would have already done so. Like I said in my first post, I see only increased revenue from other sources such as advertising that would allow TiVo to lower their prices. So take all the thoughts expressed in this thread and make your own decision. TiVo provides both options and indeed rates for a 1,2 or 3 year contract because everyone has different factors in their decision process. It is not I that is saying that prepay is right or wrong, black or white. I just crunched some numbers for some accurate data to add to any other factors a person might have.


----------



## Missmaxx

"Could you just put the people on ignore like you said you would so we could get on with this already?"


Yes, I already have, right after I disappeared yesterday when enough was enough! I am tired of making other Posts look like they came from someone else today. You see, Zeo has had me placed in "Detention" for 3 Days by complaining about HIS Posts actually. Like that could ever stop me! Zeo, you should have known better! Zeo should read over his own Posts. He is the person that always starts the problems. Now he runs to "Mommy" and complains, just as expected from a Kid like him that has the need to be noticed. Now he can report this one! But I can only have another I/D Tomorrow, if I even feel it necessary!! 

I am not here to argue like others may be. I either ask a question, or try to help answering. I don't need this crap from some Kid who knows nothing if you read his posts! He even had to go out and get exact figures on what was written about prepay. If read, it said "you may save a few Bucks now, but in the long run you may lose". And I gave a few credible and some most probable reasons as to why. Period. I am going with a reduction in prices a Year or 2 from now! Especially when Sales start falling due to either Competition and/or saturation. Then who comes out ahead?? You will get no Rebate, as this price now is what you Signed Up for! 

That is how I look at the whole picture with Tivo. The entire system is too unstable at this time, as is the Economy. Whether you agree or not is your own option as stated. But saving $3 a Month right now is no big deal when I need to lay out 3 Yrs worth of Money in advance! Do we do this with any other Companies like Phone, Electric, Cable etc? I know I don't even have the option. 
Let's just consider it as "Gambling Insurance" at the least. *How's that?


----------



## Martin Tupper

ZeoTiVo said:


> So I went to a web site  and asked for a daily compounded interest for 299 over 3 years and got
> Daily compounding: 5.127% $347.38
> so you would make 48.38$ *assuming you had another source of money you paid the monthly amount for the TiVo subscription with and left all the money in the account*. At a 12.95 per month subscription your net loss would be (167.20 minus 48.38) or $116.62. You would need a daily compound interest of 16% in order to break even on a 299$ prepay assuming you pay 12.95 a month otherwise.
> 
> so bottom line going with the 5% opportunity cost
> if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal. I do not forsee the monthly sub on the first TiVo going below 9.65 in the next 3 years unless advertising or some other revenue really picks up for TiVo.


That assumption is where the comparison falls apart. An apt comparison would be between paying $299 up front, or taking that $299 and putting it in an interest bearing money market account, and withdrawing $12.99/mo. Assuming the average month is 30.4375 days long (365.25/12): 
The compounded 5% interest on the $299.00 balance the first month would be $1.25.
The compounded 5% interest on the $287.26 ($299.00 + $1.25 - $12.99) balance the second month would be $1.20.
The compounded 5% interest on the $275.47 ($287.26 + $1.20 - $12.99) balance the third month would be $1.15.
And so on.
In a nutshell, over the 25 month period that you would run a positive balance, you would earn a grand total of $16.02 in interest. You would make 36 payments of $12.99 to TiVo totaling $467.64. So in the end, your service would cost $152.62 (467.64 - $16.02 - $299.00) more, or 51% more, than if you had prepaid.

ETA: This assumes you pay TiVo service at the end of the month. Paying at the beginning of the month would make the interest earned a little worse.


----------



## Joules1111

Missmaxx said:


> Yes, I already have, right after I disappeared yesterday when enough was enough! I am tired of making other Posts look like they came from someone else today. You see, Zeo has had me placed in "Detention" for 3 Days by complaining about HIS Posts actually. Like that could ever stop me! Zeo, you should have known better! Zeo should read over his own Posts. He is the person that always starts the problems. Now he runs to "Mommy" and complains, just as expected from a Kid like him that has the need to be noticed. Now he can report this one! But I can only have another I/D Tomorrow, if I even feel it necessary!!


So, from what you just said above, and the fact that you share the style of randomly capitalizing nouns, is it safe to assume that this is AFP1 posting under a different user name? The birth month and location are also the same.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Martin Tupper said:


> That assumption is where the comparison falls apart. An apt comparison would be between paying $299 up front, or taking that $299 and putting it in an interest bearing money market account, and withdrawing $12.99/mo. .


I agree Martin. Thanks for doing the math for including the monthly withdrawals for subscription payment.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Joules1111 said:


> So, from what you just said above, and the fact that you share the style of randomly capitalizing nouns, is it safe to assume that this is AFP1 posting under a different user name?


seems that way to me as well. This is moving faster than Jericho during its mid season lull


----------



## Missmaxx

ZeoTiVo said:


> well I posted the link to the web site I used for my numbers so others could compare. I also went to a few other sites and entered the same scenario and got the same data to within a dollar.
> of course there are many factors each person must weigh in their own decision. Notice I said
> "if you would pay 9.65 a month or more if you did not prepay then using the prepay will be a break-even or better deal"
> I did not say it was everybodies best option but just providing an accurate monthly amount to help anyone make their decision. As you pointed out some may not have 299$ upfront but would have 12.95 a month to spend. For myself, I paid monthly on my first TiVo for 4 or 5 months to make sure I liked the product before spending the 299$ on lifetime for it. I can well understand someone being leery of locking in for 3 years right off the bat. I just provided the financial numbers in my post to keep it concise and clear.
> 
> just what competition is right around the corner. The standalone DVR market is very hard to make a profit in and will take many, many years to finally reach that point. TiVo was started out of a passion for the innovative technology. Any new company would find MUCH better ROI in many other places. Also to this point competition is already here in the form of easy to lease cable or sat providers DVRs. Once you have the digital tier their leased box is significantly less expensive month to month. If TiVo could lower the monthly cost they would have already done so. Like I said in my first post, I see only increased revenue from other sources such as advertising that would allow TiVo to lower their prices. So take all the thoughts expressed in this thread and make your own decision. TiVo provides both options and indeed rates for a 1,2 or 3 year contract because everyone has different factors in their decision process. It is not I that is saying that prepay is right or wrong, black or white. I just crunched some numbers for some accurate data to add to any other factors a person might have.


You could have made the same quote before Satelite came out! But it did. Both Companies seem to be doing well. I am sure Cable has taken a big hit, as almost every satelite customer came from Cable! Same would happen here. 
Right now, Sony, Phillips, Matsu****a and Hitachi Electronics are all looking at this now, and the only thing holding them up is they want no Hard Drive! They want to use something similar to a Memory Stick to Record with. That alone would be a great advance in all Recording/\Computing. Less moving Parts mean less problems. If we could keep the info on memory, it cannot mess up, or even have the need to Call In each Day. They could Program Guides a Year in advance if wanted. Plus it would eliminate any Patent issues that may arise. If they build a better or even different machine, Patents don't count!


----------



## Joules1111

ZeoTiVo said:


> seems that way to me as well. This is moving faster than Jericho during its mid season lull


So, he/she puts people on ignore, then uses another account to by-pass the ignore. Was account #1 (AFPI) given a temp ban? Seems like account #2 (Missmax) is clearly in violation of the rules here.


> 11. Use of Multiple UserIDs is not Permitted  You have signed up with a user id, and that is the only one that should be registered. Having multiple userids will result in all userids being banned.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=127146


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## ZeoTiVo

Joules1111 said:


> So, he/she puts people on ignore, then uses another account to by-pass the ignore. Was account #1 (AFPI) given a temp ban? Seems like account #2 (Missmax) is clearly in violation of the rules here.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=127146


and is indeed AFP as a view homepage of missmax is
http://www.afpmarketing.com/

which oddly enough has been disabled, hmm.........


----------



## Joules1111

ZeoTiVo said:


> and is indeed AFP as a view homepage of missmax is
> http://www.afpmarketing.com/
> 
> which oddly enough has been disabled, hmm.........


You are a much better detective than I am. I totally missed the homepage.


----------



## moxie1617

Both AFP1 and Missmaxx have the same Yahoo IM address. Sounds like someone should be banned for life.


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## ZeoTiVo

Joules1111 said:


> You are a much better detective than I am. I totally missed the homepage.


its the energizer bunny in me  So Hopefully IP address banning is being explained to our troll now and this thread can get back on topic.


----------



## timckelley

He has already admitted he's AFP1. He said he created the second ID, and that he's ready to create a 3rd if need be.

He's also admitted that AFP1 is currently enjoying a 3 day temp ban.


----------



## Martin Tupper

Missmaxx said:


> If we could keep the info on memory, it cannot mess up, or even have the need to Call In each Day. They could Program Guides a Year in advance if wanted. Plus it would eliminate any Patent issues that may arise. If they build a better or even different machine, Patents don't count!



Solid state memory _can_ "mess up".
The hard drive is not the reason that TiVos call in regularly
There isn't program data available to be loaded a year in advance.
Even if there was, managing 12 months of data would cause an unnecessary drain on TiVo's resources
"Better" machines can still infringe on the core technologies on which TiVo holds the patents
Similarly, "different" designs must be _substantially_ different to avoid patent infringement.


----------



## Mike Lang

Get back on topic...


----------



## Bigg

Oy vey...

Haven't looked at TiVo stuff for a long while, but this is an outrage. When I got my Series 2 240 it was $550. Period. No monthly fees, no complex pricing, no pre-paying, it was just $550 ($250 for the 80 Hour 240, $300 for lifetime sub).

TiVo is dead. You can't make something this complicated and expect people to pay any attention. Plus, TiVo hasn't kept up with the technology in terms of a truly networked, centralized DVR, or a software based DVR. If I get another DVR, I am getting SageTV running on Windows 2000, as TiVo has just completely blown it. I love my TiVo, but I shouldn't have to put up with this garbage if I want another one. If I want networked DVRs, I will have to scrap my TiVo and move to a Windows-based system.

I can understand that they have costs, so maybe they could have a REASONABLE fee, like $29.99/ year. I can see that this model is subsidizing the hardware with fees, which is the same BS model that the cell phone comapnies use. They can get away with it, as there are only two good cell phone companies in the US and they both rip you off, but TiVo can't, as it has real competition.

The "average" user will just get a cable DVR that is $X/mo, with no up front at all plus service and support from the local cableco, and the geeks like me will build a low-power Windows-based system with a few TB of storage that runs SageTV, MythTV, or BeyondTV. These software DVR systems are getting better every minute, and they offer great networking and the like, and have no monthly fees.


----------



## dswallow

Bigg said:


> and the geeks like me will build a low-power Windows-based system with a few TB of storage that runs SageTV, MythTV, or BeyondTV. These software DVR systems are getting better every minute, and they offer great networking and the like, and have no monthly fees.


I used to say that until I finally got around to actually trying them out and trying to make use of them as my DVR. They're unreliable junk. Dependant on a ridiculously complex installation and configuration process, and with a myriad of hardware and driver combinations, doomed to no 2 systems ever behaving alike.

TiVo is usable out of the box, and it simply works. And it works simply.


----------



## 1283

Bigg said:


> The "average" user will just get a cable DVR that is $X/mo


X=60 for me. No, thank you.


----------



## Bigg

c3 said:


> X=60 for me. No, thank you.


They are usually about $12/mo, the same as TiVo. How is one $60/mo???


----------



## Bigg

dswallow said:


> I used to say that until I finally got around to actually trying them out and trying to make use of them as my DVR. They're unreliable junk. Dependant on a ridiculously complex installation and configuration process, and with a myriad of hardware and driver combinations, doomed to no 2 systems ever behaving alike.
> 
> TiVo is usable out of the box, and it simply works. And it works simply.


There are a lot of guys who use SageTV day in and day out. It is just so flexible, and the files are just MPEG2s, so no fooling with decryption. Sure, you have to install them, but thats not a big deal, once you get it up and going, you have a whole house SD and OTA HD system that can be accessed from any computer or HTPC. And, they are very stable, as they can run on Windows 2000, which usually does 6 month- 1 year uptimes, probably limited in most cases by how long the power company can keep the power on, a problem that TiVo obviously shares in a grid-connected house.

If I ever get another DVR (the stuff on TV now is so bad, I might just recycle the TV and be done with it) it will definitely be a Sage box. There just isn't anything else that can do what a software DVR can.


----------



## 1283

Bigg said:


> They are usually about $12/mo, the same as TiVo. How is one $60/mo???


Comcast forces me to pay additional $48 for contents I don't watch before letting me rent a DVR for another $12.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> There are a lot of guys who use SageTV day in and day out. It is just so flexible, and the files are just MPEG2s, so no fooling with decryption. Sure, you have to install them, but thats not a big deal,.


 What proof do you have of that. You say that is what you will do next, so I assume you have not actually gotten a sage box up and running for any length of time.

anyhow back on topic - it sounds like you are ranting because TiVo did away with lifetime. Now adays you can get a S2DT for 50$ and do a 299$ prepay for 3 years of service. so for 350$ you get an extra tuner and no payments. By the end of that their will probably be an option to get the same deal but add in HD via cable or OTA. TiVo could not keep offering lifetime due to financial realities just like you say in your post. Do you think a cell phone company or TiVo can really survive by just selling hardware?


----------



## Bigg

If you would have to pay $48 for stuff you don't want, then what video do you have to feed TiVo now?

No, I don't have a Sage box at the moment. The 240 Series 2 has lifetime, so it will continue to run for quite some time, but I certainly won't buy another TiVo.

As I said before, they could charge a reasonable yearly fee, like $30.

The reason they cannot make money off of hardware right now, is that they are selling it way too cheap. The cell phone companies to the same thing, and then charge you for it three times over in extra monthly fees that are built in to the plan cost to cover hardware.

If TiVo went back to selling the hardware at a profit, with a very low yearly cost to provide the service, they would be a lot better off. I heard that they also have a cost of $2.50/mo per box, I should think they they could cut that way down if they dumped the whole modem thing, and used the internet exclusively. Mine gets its updates over the net, why did I have to pay the same as dome dufus who didn't bother to hook up a NIC, and uses a phone line, which costs TiVo a ton more? The PC DVR boxes only get them over the net, and the service is totally free.


----------



## 1283

Bigg said:


> If you would have to pay $48 for stuff you don't want, then what video do you have to feed TiVo now?


~$15 limited basic + $1.50 for CableCards, which includes the local HD channels.


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## Bigg

You have a TiVo to record the local channels? And that makes sense how?


----------



## dswallow

Bigg said:


> You have a TiVo to record the local channels? And that makes sense how?


There must be some subtext in that question I'm completely missing. If you don't understand why someone might want to use a TiVo unit to record local channels, I'm not really sure you know where you are.


----------



## 1283

Bigg said:


> You have a TiVo to record the local channels? And that makes sense how?


Are you sure you're from Location: Earth?

Those of use who buy TiVos to record the major network channels must be really really stupid.


----------



## moxie1617

Bigg said:


> You have a TiVo to record the local channels? And that makes sense how?


Wow, I should have consulted with you before I bought my Tivo. I really feel stupid now.


----------



## bicker

Bigg said:


> The reason they cannot make money off of hardware right now, is that they are selling it way too cheap.


And they sell hardware so cheaply because that's the only way the American public is willing to buy it. Just dig a little deeper, and you get a little closer to the actual truth.



Bigg said:


> If TiVo went back to selling the hardware at a profit, with a very low yearly cost to provide the service, they would be a lot better off.


I know you wish that were true, and I appreciate your frustration with the fact that it is not the case. However, I just keep in mind that the folks making these decisions almost surely know more about what's the best decision for their company than random folks on the Internet do.  They don't deliberately sub-optimize their operations just to piss you off. 



Bigg said:


> I heard that they also have a cost of $2.50/mo per box, I should think they they could cut that way down if they dumped the whole modem thing, and used the internet exclusively.


That reflects a very substantial disconnect with reality, as they have obligations to those who purchased boxes which promised program guide information via telephone.



Bigg said:


> Mine gets its updates over the net, why did I have to pay the same as dome dufus who didn't bother to hook up a NIC, and uses a phone line, which costs TiVo a ton more?


Because you will (using "you" to refer to a general class of people, not you specifically).


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

bicker said:


> That reflects a very substantial disconnect with reality, as they have obligations to those who purchased boxes which promised program guide information via telephone.


Well, here's a radical thought. How about charging *different* prices for telephone access vs IP access? And what if TiVos were smart enough to download program information from each other? That way only one box in a household would need to access the server. How about a discount for that?

I know it's completely crazy to suggest a pricing scheme somehow based on the cost of providing the service. After all, such a scheme would be antithetical to the convoluted and irrational pricing scheme that exists now.

I'll just use my situation as an example. I have four active DirecTivos. The cost to me is something like $20 or $25 per month. (TiVo service plus three mirroring fees). To have four active S3 boxes would cost me about $68 per month just for the TiVo fees. That's F***ing insane and that's a big reason why I haven't even bought one S3, let alone four.

And I don't even want to debate if the $68 per month number is accurate. The fact that this thread is 940 items long shows how crazy the pricing is. So, 4 * $17 (1 year plan) = $68. I don't have the hours of free time to figure out where to buy which TiVo and what plan duration to sign up for to reduce that number.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Well, here's a radical thought. How about charging *different* prices for telephone access vs IP access? And what if TiVos were smart enough to download program information from each other? That way only one box in a household would need to access the server. How about a discount for that?
> 
> I know it's completely crazy to suggest a pricing scheme somehow based on the cost of providing the service. After all, such a scheme would be antithetical to the convoluted and irrational pricing scheme that exists now.
> 
> I'll just use my situation as an example. I have four active DirecTivos. The cost to me is something like $20 or $25 per month. (TiVo service plus three mirroring fees). To have four active S3 boxes would cost me about $68 per month just for the TiVo fees. That's F***ing insane and that's a big reason why I haven't even bought one S3, let alone four.
> 
> And I don't even want to debate if the $68 per month number is accurate. The fact that this thread is 940 items long shows how crazy the pricing is. So, 4 * $17 (1 year plan) = $68. I don't have the hours of free time to figure out where to buy which TiVo and what plan duration to sign up for to reduce that number.


umm buy them anywhere and agree to 3 years, that is all. Glad I could save you a lot of hours. 12.95 + (6.95*3) = 33.80.

I wont go into the fact that you pay a lot more than just 25$ to DirectTV so they can include things like DVR at a "cheaper rate" as that might get too convoluted.

also I would like to point out the irony that you say split up the pricing structure even more by dividing dial up vs broadband and then go on as to how convoluted the pricing structure already appears to you.


----------



## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Well, here's a radical thought. How about charging *different* prices for telephone access vs IP access?


How much extra revenue will they earn adding that complication to their pricing?



Phantom Gremlin said:


> And what if TiVos were smart enough to download program information from each other? That way only one box in a household would need to access the server. How about a discount for that?


How much extra revenue will they earn adding that complication to their pricing?



Phantom Gremlin said:


> I know it's completely crazy to suggest a pricing scheme somehow based on the cost of providing the service.


You seem to be saying that with sarcasm, but you shouldn't. Pricing ideally is based on VALUE, not cost. If a company is basing its pricing on its costs then they're already operating from a losing position. Look at the legacy air carriers for a great example of this. No. Pricing is supposed to be based on value, and it is in the supplier's best interest to do what they can to enhance not only the offering to increase its actual value, but also do what they can to increase the perceived value of the offering as it is.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> After all, such a scheme would be antithetical to the convoluted and irrational pricing scheme that exists now.


"Convoluted" because you don't understand it? And any aspect of irrationality is strictly the fault of the fact that the subscribers are human beings and humans often make irrational purchasing decisions. The suppliers, like TiVo, then to be very rational, very logical, very analytical and very methodical. Confusion and flakiness are almost always just a reflection of customers.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'll just use my situation as an example.


Don't. There is no reason to believe that you're any where near indicative of the mass-market that TiVo is trying to serve. Also, you cannot be objective in your analytical evaluations of your own behavior. Even psychiatrists have their own psychiatrists.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> To have four active S3 boxes would cost me about $68 per month just for the TiVo fees.


No, it wouldn't. You don't understand the pricing that you're complaining about. So not only is your logic faulty, but you're basing your argument on an uninformed perspective.


----------



## Bigg

wow, guess there are some TCF people who are a little too much in love with TiVo to get one to record local channels. Thats pretty scary, especially considering everything on the networks is on bittorrent anyways, you could just get it that way. Heck, I even get some network TV off of bittorrent, as its easier than TTG and decryption.

bicker,

TiVo is charging twice with the paying up front and in the long term way. Anyone other than the cable company needs to have a low yearly cost. The cablecos can get away with it because they offer integration with their services that you can't get from anyone else (HD recording of encrypted channels, VOD, PPV, etc.), AND they don't charge anything up front for anything. TiVo is a rip-off in comparison.

They are trying to milk their customers for too much money, and I won't put up with it. TiVo is never getting another $ from me. My TiVo will probably keep going for a long time, but I am NEVER going to buy another one.

Sadly, its true that some people are too darn lazy to hook their TiVo up to their home network, so maybe TiVo should incentivize them by charging $30/year for guide data over broadband, and $200/ year over a modem. That will get people off of their ***es to plug a USB wifi adapter into their TiVo, and if people don't at least it will pay for the costs of supporting dial-up. And, new boxes should be shipped without a modem, to cure that little issue. Eventually, however, they should just cut off the lazy ***es until they pop in the USB adapter for connection over the net.

Sad but true that I have to pay the same as that lazy *** who didn't connect his up to his network. Oh well, I have already paid for it, and will continue to get service for nothing for the next decade or so (with a few HD replacements in there). If I upgrade to Sage, I am sure someone I know wants the box, since it has lifetime.

Phantom Gremlin,

I should have read the posts before typing. Guess great minds think alike!

If boxes dl'ed off each other, TiVo would still have to licence the data, which I *think* is most of the cost on broadband. That is still a good idea.

Great point about the cost of a gazillion units.

ZeoTiVo,

He would pay the same for D* whether he had the DTiVos or not, other than the $5/mo per DTiVo, so that built in cost doesn't matter.

As for the pricing scheme, they need to make it ONE price for dial-up, say $240/ year, and ONE price for broadband, say $24/ year. That would effectively be one price, as everyone with a brain would get the wifi adapter (or ethernet if they have it available), or just plug a DT right in, and hook up to a LAN to save the money. Right now there is no incentive to go with the network over the phone line, other than ease of setup and quick downloads.

bicker,

A LOT, as it is much cheaper to do it over BB.

I consider myself to be very intelligent, and it would take me a while to wade through the messy pricing. There are like a bzaillion different prices, and contracts and all of that crap. What happened to just having a monthly fee? Crikes. Not that I really care, anyways, as I am not getting another TiVo.

Even at $35/mo thats absurd for one person to pay $35/mo. Just ridiculous. This stuff should be free, like on the computer side, where you buy the software up front, and after that, the service is FREE.


----------



## Bigg

The new pricing is just asinine. With a three year contract, I could get the same monthly price that I could get before with no contract, OR I could pay the same $299 that once got me lifetime to get 3 years? STUPID. The boxes will lose their value at three years, as they are so expensive to keep going, whereas my box with Lifetime will keep its value until it dies, as it is able to continue running effectively for nothing.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> ZeoTiVo,
> 
> He would pay the same for D* whether he had the DTiVos or not, other than the $5/mo per DTiVo, so that built in cost doesn't matter.
> 
> As for the pricing scheme, they need to make it ONE price for dial-up, say $240/ year, and ONE price for broadband, say $24/ year. That would effectively be one price, as everyone with a brain would get the wifi adapter (or ethernet if they have it available), or just plug a DT right in, and hook up to a LAN to save the money. Right now there is no incentive to go with the network over the phone line, other than ease of setup and quick downloads.
> .


So because DirectTV is spreading the cost of DVRs out over every subscriber it is not matter. Sorry but you can not just straight up compare the two costs without taking into account the business model of the content providers.

a large part of the 2.50 cent cost for TiVo is the actuial guide data they get from Tribune media. Sure the phone lines are an added cost TiVo would love to do away with but they contract it out to a 3rd party dial up provider already. Keeping the phone subscriptions at the current price makes TiVo money and there is no reason for them to suddenly drop 25% of their subscription base with some outrageous price change.
Also TiVo would not make a profit on 24$ a year. BAsically your plan would land mamagement in court if they tried it and trashed the company.

I am taking you way less seriously then I first did. As i just showed above , Your posts are just getting more out there all the time.


----------



## bicker

Bigg said:


> TiVo is charging twice with the paying up front and in the long term way.


That's perfectly normal, appropriate and correct. Ostensibly, the up-front charge covers a good portion of the value of the hardware device (which generally isn't a profit-generating venture, which is why TiVo has no current consumer-facing competitors for HD DVRs), while the monthly charge principally covers the value of the service and is therefor the principal contributor to profit -- remember that profit is a primary objective of the corporation.



Bigg said:


> Anyone other than the cable company needs to have a low yearly cost.


Not necessarily. However, I won't completely disagree with you: I've said several times that *there may not be a sufficiently profitable business model for a consumer-focused HD DVR.* TiVo is doing the best it can, but even the best possible may not be good enough, in the end. We consumers may simply be too cheap to foster that kind of business model.



Bigg said:


> They are trying to milk their customers for too much money


No. They're trying to build a profitable business model. The alternative is to give up the whole HD DVR market to the cable companies. All the work that so many people have done to force the cable companies to open up their networks will be worthless if there isn't anyone out there able to profitably sell the requisite hardware.



Bigg said:


> and I won't put up with it.


That's a remarkably childish way of wording what you're probably trying to say. What I understand is that you don't find the offerings of sufficient value with regard to the price. That's your prerogative as a consumer. Some people thought the TiVo S3 was worth $800 + the cost of service, some feel it is $400 + the cost of service, and some feel it isn't even worth that. The current price-point for a device that has no monthly service charge is about $1100 (down from $1500 last year). Eventually, all these prices will decrease, but rest assured that the up-front price for a device that doesn't have a monthly service commitment will be higher than the same device would cost if it did have a monthly service commitment. The balance between the up-front price and the monthly fee is a variable that will change over time, based not on your own personal preference, but rather based on the inclinations of the general public. As frustrating as it may be, it is a mark of maturity to recognize that our own personal preferences are subservient to that of the general public, with regard to what mass-market suppliers offer us.


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## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> , as it is able to continue running effectively for nothing.


Yah TiVo needs more boxes like that on their subscription list 

sure from the consumer side I loved lifetime. But TiVo inc is in business and that means they do things that keeps more revenue coming in, not less.


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## Bigg

In court? WTF? They wouldn't trash the company. What they are doing now with a absurd pricing IS trashing the company. Say $30/year then, at their cost. So that they would make money off of the boxes, not in ripping people off. And, the price of the box should include like 4 years service or something, $30/year after that. And the new boxes shouldn't have a modem in them.

The point is not to drop that 25%, its to give them incentive to get with the program and get a wifi adapter for their TiVo.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> In court? WTF? They wouldn't trash the company. What they are doing now with a absurd pricing IS trashing the company. Say $30/year then, at their cost. So that they would make money off of the boxes, not in ripping people off. And, the price of the box should include like 4 years service or something, $30/year after that. And the new boxes shouldn't have a modem in them.
> 
> The point is not to drop that 25%, its to give them incentive to get with the program and get a wifi adapter for their TiVo.


it is somewhere in the ballpark of 50% SA boxes that are using the modem. So you are saying that is TiVo announced that starting next billing period the cost was 240$ vs the 155.40 a year at 12.95 rate That they would not face massive cancellations of service?

Add in the fact that they at the same time suddenly drastically reduced the other subscriptions so the half that stayed ending up paying far less than the 155.40 or even 68 dollars for an MSD sub, thus making a large loss on the next quarter a certain thing, then stakeholders in the company would be be going to court to stop such a horribly thought out plan.

anyway, this is adding no value to the thread at all - have fun with it.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin

ZeoTiVo said:


> also I would like to point out the irony that you say split up the pricing structure even more by dividing dial up vs broadband and then go on as to how convoluted the pricing structure already appears to you.


There's no irony, because I would *drastically simplify* the overall pricing. Something like this, a cross between "cost based" pricing and "value" pricing (in general terms):

$10/mo 1st TiVo in household
$5/mo each additional TiVo in household
$1/mo discount for each TiVo connected by broadband

*PEOPLE NEED PRICING THEY CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND and THAT THEY CAN EASILY EVANGELIZE TO OTHERS.*

I wouldn't bring back lifetime because that's a business model that TiVo has decided it can't accept.

I probably wouldn't require a commitment at all (but I concede that selling a subsidized box becomes difficult without one).

I definitely wouldn't have the absurd situation of requiring a new commitment on an old box being brought back into service. That just alienates people. The product is good enough that there's no need for a lock in.

This business of 1 year vs 2 years vs 3 years commitments is also ridiculous. It's much too confusing to the average person.

I'd also drop the 1 year vs 2 years vs 3 years pre-pay. I'd have only a 1 year pre-pay with perhaps a 15% discount off the month-to-month rate. Even that causes a lot of complexity, because what happens if the TiVo breaks during the pre-pay period?


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## 1283

Bigg said:


> wow, guess there are some TCF people who are a little too much in love with TiVo to get one to record local channels. Thats pretty scary, especially considering everything on the networks is on bittorrent anyways, you could just get it that way.


This is pure garbage.


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## ZeoTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> There's no irony, because I would *drastically simplify* the overall pricing. Something like this, a cross between "cost based" pricing and "value" pricing (in general terms):
> 
> $10/mo 1st TiVo in household
> $5/mo each additional TiVo in household
> $1/mo discount for each TiVo connected by broadband
> 
> *PEOPLE NEED PRICING THEY CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND and THAT THEY CAN EASILY EVANGELIZE TO OTHERS.*


Ok the idea of going back to simpler plan appeals to me. It at least saves lots of quizzical posts here  I think I would leave the rates as is for phone ;line connected and announce the new prices for broadband connection only. That way the phone line crowd would cry foul (of course) but really not have a big gripe since things stay the same. I do think though that if tiVo could lower sub pricing then they already would have so this may be all a pipe dream. :0


> I wouldn't bring back lifetime because that's a business model that TiVo has decided it can't accept.
> 
> I probably wouldn't require a commitment at all (but I concede that selling a subsidized box becomes difficult without one).
> 
> I definitely wouldn't have the absurd situation of requiring a new commitment on an old box being brought back into service. That just alienates people. The product is good enough that there's no need for a lock in.
> 
> This business of 1 year vs 2 years vs 3 years commitments is also ridiculous. It's much too confusing to the average person.
> 
> I'd also drop the 1 year vs 2 years vs 3 years pre-pay. I'd have only a 1 year pre-pay with perhaps a 15% discount off the month-to-month rate. Even that causes a lot of complexity, because what happens if the TiVo breaks during the pre-pay period?


I also think the 1,2 or 3 year committment raises the most questions. I wish instead that on new activations they simnply said month to month is being raised to x dollars. Want to get the usual pricing? Then committ to 2 years of service.
And prepaying each year will save you x percent. They most likely still would have hit that average sub price of 10$ they spoke of in the earnings call but with a lot less hassle. Make it specific that the higher cost is due to month to month.
PS - sorry but they need to make the old boxes of little value so that people will drop them in favor of newer models. That means no break for resubbing an old box.


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## bicker

I think your suggestion isn't revenue neutral, a necessary condition. The three-year commitment is essential to be able to offer the most affordable options, which is a must given the circumstances. I guarantee that we'd see MORE complaints if the only choices were $17 for month-to-month and $299 for three years. I bet they'd deny it now, but I suspect that the same folks complaining about "all these different choices" would be the first to express their frustration over only have two options to choose from. Each of the available options appeal to specific target groups, and removing any of them may very well frustrate a number of potential customers.


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## ZeoTiVo

bicker said:


> I think your suggestion isn't revenue neutral, a necessary condition. The three-year commitment is essential to be able to offer the most affordable options, which is a must given the circumstances. I guarantee that we'd see MORE complaints if the only choices were $17 for month-to-month and $299 for three years. I bet they'd deny it now, but I suspect that the same folks complaining about "all these different choices" would be the first to express their frustration over only have two options to choose from. Each of the available options appeal to specific target groups, and removing any of them may very well frustrate a number of potential customers.


That is why I went with a penalty, so to speak, for month to month and the regular pricing if you commit to 2 years. I think a 2 year spot would sell some more subs vs 3 year. And sure keep the 299 prepay for 3 years - if fits that really only 2 years of commitment and the 3rd year is just free.
I quoted around Gremlin's idea of lower rates, but also said if TiVo could lower rates they would do so right away already.
I do think it would pay TiVo back to get more broadband users on the rolls and thus some kickback for going broadband would be welcome by users nad perhpas neutral for TiVo


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## bicker

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think a 2 year spot would sell some more subs vs 3 year.


Perhaps not enough more to make up for the lost revenue that would stem from "two and out" situations.



ZeoTiVo said:


> And sure keep the 299 prepay for 3 years - if fits that really only 2 years of commitment and the 3rd year is just free.


I think the whole two year commitment thing is a red herring. They want the three year, so they craft pricing to push customers to that option. I suppose they could just get rid of the two year option completely. I could buy into that idea.


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## Phantom Gremlin

bicker said:


> Perhaps not enough more to make up for the lost revenue that would stem from "two and out" situations.


I don't understand. Seriously. Once someone has used a TiVo for two years, why would they want to drop it or switch to anything else?

I could see people switching to a cable DVR if it were cheaper, but it wouldn't be. After two years the TiVo hardware is a "sunk cost" and if TiVo keeps the monthly rates competitive with cable DVR rates, then why switch?

That's why I think TiVo is making a mistake asking for long commitments. Many people, rationally or irrationally, want to avoid them, but those same people "cohabitate" for decades.


----------



## HDTiVo

Bigg said:


> The new pricing is just asinine.


It isn't new. its around 15 months old and TiVo keeps makin' it more more asinine.

But I guess the increasingly poor financial and subscriber results just have people totally convinced that TiVo knows what it is doing and everything it is doing is optimal, and somewhere there is an actual intelligent thought behind this devastation of the stand alone business.

Any knowledgeable person would have realised immediately in March of '06 that TiVo completely blew it and would fall flat on its face. And any such person would know that every move since has made it worse and worse.


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## HDTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I wouldn't bring back lifetime because that's a business model that TiVo has decided it can't accept.


Why give any credence to what TiVo "has decided it can accept?"

Look, I concluded several months ago that TiVo has no serious intention of staying in the stand alone business and all this is alot of transitional [email protected] on the way out; not that it even makes any sense as an exit strategy.


----------



## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I don't understand. Seriously. Once someone has used a TiVo for two years, why would they want to drop it or switch to anything else?


Technology changes. Personal financial situations. Promotional offers attracting the customer to another offering. And so on... The fact is that the cost of customer acquisition is substantial, and pushing that cost out to once-every-three-years is a major contributor to profitability in many consumer-facing industries.


----------



## bicker

HDTiVo said:


> But I guess the increasingly poor financial and subscriber results just have people totally convinced that TiVo knows what it is doing and everything it is doing is optimal, and somewhere there is an actual intelligent thought behind this devastation of the stand alone business.


What an incredibly myopic view! Why not consider how much worse shape TiVo would be in if they didn't make the changes they made? You didn't consider that things could have gotten worse, did you?  You really have no hard information or intelligence regarding what would or would not be good for a company like TiVo. You just know that you don't like what they are offering, or how they're offering it.



HDTiVo said:


> Any knowledgeable person would have realised immediately in March of '06 that TiVo completely blew it and would fall flat on its face.


And knowledgeable person would acknowledge that unless they spend their days working as an recognized marketing professional in this specific field, they really have no idea what they're talking about in this regard.


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## Martin Tupper

Bigg said:


> wow, guess there are some TCF people who are a little too much in love with TiVo to get one to record local channels. Thats pretty scary, especially considering everything on the networks is on bittorrent anyways, you could just get it that way. Heck, I even get some network TV off of bittorrent, as its easier than TTG and decryption.


What is so scary about recording the local channels? I have a Series 3 that's only connected OTA. It's great.

As far as bit torrents go, you can download cable shows too. The problem is that unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material is illegal, whether its network or cable programming. But yes you are correct. Stealing is usually cheaper than obtaining something legally.


----------



## Bigg

To push people to using the internet, not phone lines is not to get rid of them, but to get them to get off their lazy ***es and plug a wifi adapter into TiVo.

They need to start selling new boxes at a legitimate profit so that they can make money without ripping off people in the monthly fees forever.

Phantom, good explanation.

Also, why is TiVo paying $2.00/mo per bo for guide data when Sage and Myth and BeyondTV and Microsoft are all getting it for free?

Pure garbage? How about a half-serious joke about this forum and TiVo. Seriously though, why bother with TiVo for the networks, when everything they do is on bittorrent?

Lowering for internet subs would be a great idea. They could also, in order to make back the $$$ on the subsidized boxes, they could continue with the commitment time on the existing TiVos, then move them to the new pricing if they were on the 'net, and then new boxes wouldn't have a modem, so they wouldn't be eligible for phone line pricing/ plans. The DT with ethernet is a bit of a step forward, though. That saves about $50 on the little ethernet adapter doohickey.

They need to keep the existing boxes out there. Why make people get a new box when their box is perfectly good, and they can just keep raking in the monthly subs on that old box?

Hey, the old way was just fine. They could have just split it to $9.99/mo or $399 lifetime to make it make more financial sense. That way, the payback would be closer to four years than two.

People would drop TiVo after two years for SageTV, MythTV, or BeyondTV. Because they are better. And don't rip you off every month.

I call it "new" because my TiVo was bought before this pricing. There is no way I would buy another with this absurd pricing. I would hit up Newegg for a grand worth of parts before I would wade through the quagmire of TiVo pricing. Before it was very simple, just pay $300, and thats that. Now its like WTF???

I would actually be interested to see if TiVo has been able to keep afloat by ripping off and scaring away customers, and not innovating in their core business. TiVo should stop with the hardware garbage, and license their front end to SageTV, BeyondTV, or Microsoft. Really, they would be licensing the peanut, which would make those solutions absolutely perfect. 

Lifetime is the way to keep customers. 

Do they still do the multi-service-discount? So could you use a lifetime box as the main unit, and then put other ones on at $7/mo?

Its not stealing. Its on the airwaves for free, so it is certainly my moral/ ethical right to copy and redistribute it as I want. Probably not legal, but whatever.


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## ZeoTiVo

Bigg said:


> People would drop TiVo after two years for SageTV, MythTV, or BeyondTV. Because they are better. And don't rip you off every month.


so do you have that number of people using SageTv or MythTV yet. No need to be precise just round it off to the nearest 500,000 

PS yes MSD is of course still in effect and 300/7 = 43 months which makes lifetime pretty unattractive to me on a unit that qualifies for MSD


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## Martin Tupper

Bigg said:


> Its not stealing. Its on the airwaves for free, so it is certainly my moral/ ethical right to copy and redistribute it as I want. *Probably not legal*, but whatever.


There's no "probably" about it. It isn't legal.

You are allowed "fair use" of the programs that you receive from the networks. You are allowed to "timeshift". You are NOT allowed to distribute them nor are you allowed to make illegal copies from someone else.


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## HDTiVo

bicker said:


> What an incredibly myopic view! Why not consider how much worse shape TiVo would be in if they didn't make the changes they made? You didn't consider that things could have gotten worse, did you?  You really have no hard information or intelligence regarding what would or would not be good for a company like TiVo. You just know that you don't like what they are offering, or how they're offering it.





bicker said:


> And knowledgeable person would acknowledge that unless they spend their days working as an recognized marketing professional in this specific field, they really have no idea what they're talking about in this regard.


The 'you must work in the job day to day to have any insight' argument is totally wrong.

It is plainly obvious (in advance of results) that TiVo's approach is damaging to its business. Post results, exactly what I said would happen has happend, consistently with each move they've made.

You have absolutely no evidence that what TiVo is doing is the anything close to the best they could do. You just say it. The results completely bear out the opposite.

Everything TiVo has said about what would result has been wrong, while everything I have said has been repeatedly right.

Example: TiVo said its marketing plan would generate a large increase in sales (sub acq rates) and increase efficiency (reduce sub acq costs.) I said it would reduce subs acq rates and increase costs. Result: TiVo completely wrong; HDTiVo right.

Example: TiVo said they had a significant opportunity in the analog cable market which might get them more subs. I said nothing of signifcance would come of that. Result: TiVo wrong, HDTiVo right.

Example: TiVo thought it could market the S3 at the prices and times they tried (esp. last XMAS.) I said TiVo would have poor sales and miss the market. Result: TiVo missed the market; TiVo wrong, HDTiVo right.

Example: TiVo thought it could boost subs signifcantly with XMAS '06 ad campaign spend. I said ads would do nothing. Result: It was so bad it looked like the ads even drove AWAY sales  ; $ wasted; TiVo very wrong, HDTiVo closer to right (but too optimistic!!!)

Example: TiVo gives up offering any guidance on sub acq starting 1Q08. 1Q08 subs horrible - even worse than the low end of my 60-80K prediction. Result: TiVo continues to demonstrate wrong strategy and has lost significant control of business. HDTiVo gets more right (but still way too optimistic!!!!  )

So, unfortunately, I do have some knowledge and insight into this subject, and it is better than TiVo's.


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## betamax

I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I'm disappointed with one aspect of the new pricing. I had an old Sony SVR-2000 sitting in the garage. I was going to sell it on e-bay, but never got around to it and now it isn't worth much. I thought I'd put it in the kids room. TiVo wants me to commit to at least a year on an old box. I can understand the commitment period on a new box to help recover the cost of the box. But this is an old machine. Who knows how long this machine will last? If it does die, I probably won't replace it.

I wanted to pay the $6.95/mo for the extra box, but with these commitment periods on an old box, the kids can watch what is already recorded on it.


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## ZeoTiVo

betamax said:


> I wanted to pay the $6.95/mo for the extra box, but with these commitment periods on an old box, the kids can watch what is already recorded on it.


I hear what you are saying. Oddly enough I think TiVo would rather people buy a new box than use the old ones and force TiVo to keep having to deal with them. I know in this case TiVo lost a sale but that little bit of MSD revenue is probably not enough to keep having to support the older box unless they can book it at 3 years.


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## HDTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> Oddly enough I think TiVo would rather people buy a new box than use the old ones and force TiVo to keep having to deal with them. I know in this case TiVo lost a sale but that little bit of MSD revenue is probably not enough to keep having to support the older box unless they can book it at 3 years.


It is a clear and obvious example of TiVo not knowing what it is doing. It leaves two options:

1. Don't get the customer and lose that money. (I know Zeo you somehow got it in your head long ago that there are some serious cost/benefit issues in the potential turnover, but it is a small fraction of what you think and almost irrelevent.)

2. Lose a large number of dollars selling the customer a new unit and then sign him up at the same price you could have for the old unit, thus never recovering the hardware loss.

The idea of not having to deal with old boxes is not even a possibility. They are out there anyway, and the expense TiVo is going through to speed their demise, if that is the intent, is ridiculous. Not to mention the complete irrationality of TiVo's attitude that they are a service business and prefer not to be in the hardware business but as a _necessary evil _ while forcing themselves to be _more _ in the hardware business by this policy.


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## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> (I know Zeo you somehow got it in your head long ago that there are some serious cost/benefit issues in the potential turnover, but it is a small fraction of what you think and almost irrelevant.).


true , neither of us know what kind of cost is involved for TiVo, but what other reason do they have for the policy? You claim incompetence but it would have to be really silly incompetence to just lay down a policy with no reason.
I speculate the reason is they want to reduce having to book a few months at a time churn and make sure any new activation is for at least a year and thus stabilize any associated costs and apply them over an acceptable time frame.

My speculation seems more reasonable to me then just deciding it is gross incompetence.

ETA - yes Adam115 remined me of the other reason to move people to newer hardware


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## Adam1115

HDTiVo said:


> 2. Lose a large number of dollars selling the customer a new unit and then sign him up at the same price you could have for the old unit, thus never recovering the hardware loss.


It's not necessarily a large number of dollars.

Moving from a Series1 to a Series2 allows them to sell you Amazon Unbox movie downloads, inject fast forward commercials and end of show ads, etc.


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## HDTiVo

Adam1115 said:


> It's not necessarily a large number of dollars.
> 
> Moving from a Series1 to a Series2 allows them to sell you Amazon Unbox movie downloads, inject fast forward commercials and end of show ads, etc.


So far, TiVo gets zero $s from Unbox downloads and the ads don't pay the freight of the hardware loss - remember the ad revenue is embedded in the subscription revenue, so if the whole doesn't pay the freight the pieces don't either.

Zeo - they're nuts, they're just plain nuts. I can't say it any plainer than that. Their thinking is so screwed up; there is little logical or rational about it. Its hard to even make sense when criticizing it because it so nuts.

That's right, I don't know those turnover costs, but if they aren't small in the range I figure then TiVo is again incompetent in managing the cost. If they are turning away profitable business to make churn numbers look good, that's just bad business and Wall Street gibberish. But maybe TiVo is better off just flushing their operating business down the tubes while floating pipe dreams and stock from time to time. Maybe that really is the *optimal business plan*.


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## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> So far, TiVo gets zero $s from Unbox downloads and the ads don't pay the freight of the hardware loss - remember the ad revenue is embedded in the subscription revenue, so if the whole doesn't pay the freight the pieces don't either.


 once TiVo works out the code to order directly from your TiVo then TiVo inc. does get a share of the revenue they bring Unbox's way. I imagine that will be sooner vs later but that of course assumes sanity among the TiVo employees 



> Zeo - they're nuts, they're just plain nuts. I can't say it any plainer than that. Their thinking is so screwed up; there is little logical or rational about it. Its hard to even make sense when criticizing it because it so nuts.


well how can I debate that without access to psychiatric evaluations of the TiVo staff. So I will just not debate it any more.


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## HDTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> once TiVo works out the code to order directly from your TiVo then TiVo inc. does get a share of the revenue they bring Unbox's way. I imagine that will be sooner vs later but that of course assumes sanity among the TiVo employees


That gets to another level of the discussion. These ad and download business lines depend on large numbers of subscribers. They are non-linear (greater than) functions of subscriber base. The biggest problem with the whole pricing thing (on topic-ish  ) is the strangling of the sub growth as it relates to these other potentially lucrative business lines.



> well how can I debate that without access to psychiatric evaluations of the TiVo staff. So I will just not debate it any more.


OK.


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## bicker

HDTiVo said:


> The 'you must work in the job day to day to have any insight' argument is totally wrong.


No, not really. There is a vast distinction between what amateurs without data know and what professionals with data know.



HDTiVo said:


> It is plainly obvious (in advance of results) that TiVo's approach is damaging to its business.


Your statement is vacuous. It doesn't establish a baseline -- damaging as compared to what? You have no idea what circumstances surround the pricing decisions they're making. What you want is irrelevant -- that's the only thing that is clear.



HDTiVo said:


> You have absolutely no evidence that what TiVo is doing is the anything close to the best they could do.


I haven't said anything of the sort. All I've said is that you don't have any evidence that what TiVo is doing isn't the best they could do. The criticisms of TiVo came first -- I didn't object to them before they were voiced!   



HDTiVo said:


> The results completely bear out the opposite.


The opposite of what? You're hiding behind innuendo and vague characterizations, in a vain attempt to defend your baseless attacks.



HDTiVo said:


> So, unfortunately, I do have some knowledge and insight into this subject, and it is better than TiVo's.


I believe you're sadly misguided.


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## Phantom Gremlin

ZeoTiVo said:


> I speculate the reason is they want to reduce having to book a few months at a time churn and make sure any new activation is for at least a year and thus stabilize any associated costs and apply them over an acceptable time frame.
> 
> My speculation seems more reasonable to me then just deciding it is gross incompetence.


Okay, then why can't TiVo charge a $25 "re-activation fee" instead of demanding a commitment? The fee would cover the cost of having Sanjay over in Bangalore interact with the subscriber and type in a few fields into an online form.

My speculation leans to gross incompetence on TiVo's part. 

EDIT: My DSL recently went out for a day so I took the opportunity to sign up for a cable modem from Comcast. *NO COMMITMENT REQUIRED!* How do they recover their cost? Simple: the self-install kit cost me $30. That covered their up-front costs of the Comcast clerk handing me the cable modem and then typing in a few fields into a computer form. If a commitment was required I would have been MUCH LESS LIKELY to try the service.


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## ZeoTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Okay, then why can't TiVo charge a $25 "re-activation fee" instead of demanding a commitment? The fee would cover the cost of having Sanjay over in Bangalore interact with the subscriber and type in a few fields into an online form.
> 
> My speculation leans to gross incompetence on TiVo's part.


why is charging 25$ that you never get back a better thing than agreeing to a length of time and then just paying for the service?


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## Phantom Gremlin

ZeoTiVo said:


> why is charging 25$ that you never get back a better thing than agreeing to a length of time and then just paying for the service?


Two reasons:

1) the $25 is closer to the actual cost of re-activating my account and/or adding a new unit to my account.

2) I mentally understand up-front that the $25 is a sunk cost. If I sign up for a commitment and then the old TiVo breaks, I still have to keep paying for service. So, do I then try to fix a 7 year old box? Do I just pay every month while getting nothing of value in return? That way leads to anger ...


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## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> ZeoTiVo said:
> 
> 
> 
> why is charging 25$ that you never get back a better thing than agreeing to a length of time and then just paying for the service?
> 
> 
> 
> 1) the $25 is closer to the actual cost of re-activating my account and/or adding a new unit to my account.
Click to expand...

Ideally, cost has nothing to do with pricing. Pricing should reflect value, not cost. Not your personal assessment of value, but rather a more objective assessment of value, as measured by what customers-in-general are willing to pay.



Phantom Gremlin said:


> 2) I mentally understand up-front that the $25 is a sunk cost. If I sign up for a commitment and then the old TiVo breaks, I still have to keep paying for service. So, do I then try to fix a 7 year old box? Do I just pay every month while getting nothing of value in return? That way leads to anger ...


Dr. Melfi probably has an opening now...


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## HDTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 1) the $25 is closer to the actual cost of re-activating my account and/or adding a new unit to my account.
> 
> 2) I mentally understand up-front that the $25 is a sunk cost. If I sign up for a commitment and then the old TiVo breaks, I still have to keep paying for service. So, do I then try to fix a 7 year old box? Do I just pay every month while getting nothing of value in return? That way leads to anger ...


That's the right way to look at something like this.

One of TiVo's problems is they have such a poor understanding of how one markets to actual human beings.


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## Phantom Gremlin

bicker said:


> Ideally, cost has nothing to do with pricing. Pricing should reflect value, not cost.


You're absolutely right, in an "ideal" sense. But I'm an engineer and have a lot of difficulty embracing that point of view.


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## HDTiVo

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You're absolutely right, in an "ideal" sense. But I'm an engineer and have a lot of difficulty embracing that point of view.


But wouldn't it be nice if once in a while the objective of pricing would be to maximize profits in the competitive environment you face?


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## bicker

Phantom Gremlin said:


> You're absolutely right, in an "ideal" sense. But I'm an engineer and have a lot of difficulty embracing that point of view.


I'm an engineer too, but have had to work with customers a great deal, in both pre-sales and post-sales scenarios, and you quickly learn in such cases the importance of *value*.


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## atmuscarella

Somehow I missed this thread - guess I will add my 2 cents.

First I will state what seems obvious to me but hasn't been mentioned (at least in the last few pages). *Satellite and Cable Company DVRs are loss leaders*. Satellite companies are the worst offenders does anyone really think Dish is going to recoup the cost of a VIP622 HD DVR at $0 upfront and $6 per month?

If the FCC really wanted to open up the STB/DVR market then along with requiring open cable card standards they would also have to mandate that satellite/cable companies not subsidize the cost of their STBs or DVRs, through their subscription costs. Is this likely to happen? In my opinion No.

So TiVo has to sell their DVRs on better service and/or features because unless they are magicians they will have to charge more than the cable or satellite services do.

Thanks,


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## Royal2000H

I'm sorry but what were the old rates?
I'm fairly new to tivo and have only seen the "new" rates.


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## timckelley

Royal2000H said:


> I'm sorry but what were the old rates?
> I'm fairly new to tivo and have only seen the "new" rates.


When I bought my TiVos a few years ago, the deal was:

$299 for lifetime, or $12.99 per month, with no commitment needed - can quit anytime with no penalty. Later, they added a multi-unit discount, and said your second TiVo can be had for $6.99 per month, again with no contract and no committment.

It went downhill since then.


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## killer77

how do i choose the free dvd i want


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## nocturne1

Sorry if this was covered earlier, but is this part of the FAQ no longer valid?

---------------------

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.
-------------------------

I have a box that was bought October 2006 with pre-payed 1 year. Now they just upped my price to $16.95, and claimed the only way for it to be lower is to go with a multi year plan....


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## TerpBE

Isn't MOST of the FAQ no longer valid? Can we get a Fall 2007 pricing FAQ?


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## Slainte

Well, color me surprised. Guess I should have been paying more attention.

I have 3 Tivos, all monthly. The first was activated in June of 04, and is billed at $12.95/mo., the second and third are $6.95 because of the multiroom discount.

I just picked up another Tivo, only to find out that this one will cost $9.95/month with a year committment, that's the current multiroom discount. Sorry, but service on an incremental Tivo is not worth 30&#37; more than the other two boxes I've already got.

So, decision made. The new box is going back. Instead of getting an additional $6.95/mo more from me, they'll get $0 additional dollars. That's certainly an interesting customer retention program. Hope it works out for them.


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## dswallow

Slainte said:


> Well, color me surprised. Guess I should have been paying more attention.
> 
> I have 3 Tivos, all monthly. The first was activated in June of 04, and is billed at $12.95/mo., the second and third are $6.95 because of the multiroom discount.
> 
> I just picked up another Tivo, only to find out that this one will cost $9.95/month with a year committment, that's the current multiroom discount. Sorry, but service on an incremental Tivo is not worth 30% more than the other two boxes I've already got.
> 
> So, decision made. The new box is going back. Instead of getting an additional $6.95/mo more from me, they'll get $0 additional dollars. That's certainly an interesting customer retention program. Hope it works out for them.


You can also prepay 1 year for $99... that makes it $8.25/month.

You could also swap out one of your older units for the new one and retain the current pricing for it... useful if you're replacing a single tuner with a dual tuner or HD model.


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## bicker

Slainte said:


> So, decision made. The new box is going back. Instead of getting an additional $6.95/mo more from me, they'll get $0 additional dollars. That's certainly an interesting customer retention program. Hope it works out for them.


It sure might work out for them. Figure that a good percentage of folks will go ahead and pay the higher price, or make a longer commitment, as Doug alluded to, and so just consider for each one that that extra $3 each is gravy. Then, consider that a certain percentage (perhaps the entirety) of that $6.95 just covers cost. So which is better, making cost on X+Y subscribers, or making cost+gravy on X subscribers? The latter, of course. Now I've simplified it a bit, but even with the details added back in I bet the principle holds, and that TiVo figured this all out and made their decision based on the entirety of the scenario.


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## dstoffa

Slainte said:


> I have 3 Tivos, all monthly. The first was activated in June of 04, and is billed at $12.95/mo., the second and third are $6.95 because of the multiroom discount.
> 
> I just picked up another Tivo, only to find out that this one will cost $9.95/month with a year committment, that's the current multiroom discount. Sorry, but service on an incremental Tivo is not worth 30% more than the other two boxes I've already got.
> 
> So, decision made. The new box is going back. Instead of getting an additional $6.95/mo more from me, they'll get $0 additional dollars. That's certainly an interesting customer retention program. Hope it works out for them.


Since you are an existing customer, couldn't you simply add LIFETIME to your new box?


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## HeatherA

nocturne1 said:


> Sorry if this was covered earlier, but is this part of the FAQ no longer valid?
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
> A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.
> -------------------------
> 
> I have a box that was bought October 2006 with pre-payed 1 year. Now they just upped my price to $16.95, and claimed the only way for it to be lower is to go with a multi year plan....


I'm in the same boat. I've just been too lazy to call and complain and figured it'd be useless to do so. I started paying $16.95 in September when my 1 year ended.

In 2000 when I bought my first TiVo I sang it's praises to the rooftops. In 2008 I urge people not to buy them but to try their cable company box instead. They don't understand the pricing and commitment with TiVo when their cable companies are offering "the same thing" for much less.

I've definitely gone from a true love situation to a love/hate situation.


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## Beerg0d

Nothing more than a scam !!!!


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## h00ligan

what i don't understand is - they raise the rates and increase the ads/'partnerships' - seems a bit like double dipping, no?


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## bicker

Their fiduciary obligations require them to do whatever is in the best financial interests of their owners. That means, at times, seeking revenues from however many sources there might be, not just one.


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## Chickendog

So i got another T.V. the other day. I now have 3 T.V.'s in the house. I got out and old Tivo that i canceled long ago. Series 2 with one tuner. Not a bad backup box. I connected both tivo's to all 3 T.V.s plus a direct cable connection and a DVD. I got this Tivo out because I was gonna go ahead and pay the 6.95 a month and have 2 tivo's going for 3 T.V.'s. 

Right now im paying 10.95 for 1 tivo. I call them and they tell me if i want to activate the second tivo its going to cost me 12.95 for the main tivo and 10.95 for the second tivo. So instead of paying 10.95 + 6.95 (18 a month) for 2 tivo's I would be paying 12.95 + 10.95 (24 a month). Whats the deal tivo. Why do we need to complicate these matters. I wount be activating my second tivo. I will be looking into MythTV and Snapstream media. Reward new customers, punish loyal customers. 

Thanks
6 year customer


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## classicsat

MSD is simply now $9.95. it seems that you need a current monthly or prepay/contract price on your other box to get that.


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## DrewTivo

classicsat said:


> MSD is simply now $9.95. it seems that you need a current monthly or prepay/contract price on your other box to get that.


Jeez, that's like a cell company. It's one thing to raise the price on new contracts, but to force you to "upgrade" your old one as well? Seems pretty tight.


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## ZeoTiVo

DrewTivo said:


> Jeez, that's like a cell company. It's one thing to raise the price on new contracts, but to force you to "upgrade" your old one as well? Seems pretty tight.


he had cancelled his old contract and thus he was indeed starting a new contract. He did not mention how he came to 10.95 a month on the one he had but that was not meeting the qualification for a full subscription.

I have 3 month to month 6.95 subs that have stayed active and TiVo honors them to this day. on one It ran on a box I did not use for 4 months and then transferred very nicely to a DT. I knew if I cancelled it I would not get it back for the added DT.


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## kcatty

I have been with TiVo since 2006. I am now month to month, paying $16.95. I am noticing that rates are now $9.95 for month/month and only $99 annually. 

If I were to agree to re-up a contract, would TiVo allow me onto one of these plans without purchasing a new box?


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## socrplyr

kcatty said:


> I have been with TiVo since 2006. I am now month to month, paying $16.95. I am noticing that rates are now $9.95 for month/month and only $99 annually.
> 
> If I were to agree to re-up a contract, would TiVo allow me onto one of these plans without purchasing a new box?


If you go month to month your fee should be $12.95/$9.95 per month, $129/$99 for one year, $299 for 3 years, or $399/$299 for lifetime of the box. The first number is for if you don't have another Tivo on the account that qualifies you for the multi-service discount (MSD).
How many Tivos do you have? and what are the rates on all of them?


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## kcatty

socrplyr said:


> If you go month to month your fee should be $12.95/$9.95 per month, $129/$99 for one year, $299 for 3 years, or $399/$299 for lifetime of the box. The first number is for if you don't have another Tivo on the account that qualifies you for the multi-service discount (MSD).
> How many Tivos do you have? and what are the rates on all of them?


Thanks for your reply!

I just have one TiVo and the rate is $16.95, which was the rate when I signed up. I must have looked at the rates when logged in from my account, which would be why the $9.95/mo and $99 annual rates were showing.

Regardless, if I call would they lower my rate to $12.95? I'd be willing to execute a 1 year agreement in exchange....


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## rainwater

kcatty said:


> Regardless, if I call would they lower my rate to $12.95? I'd be willing to execute a 1 year agreement in exchange....


You can do this online with the new website. Just log into your account and look at "Schedule a future plan" next to your TiVo. You can do another "monthly" plan at $12.95 if you want. It will just require another contract for one year.


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## 1283

Might as well prepay a year for $129, since you have to commit a year anyway.


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## BrianEWilliams

c3 said:


> This sentence has two different meanings.


This sentence has one meaning.


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## 1283

BrianEWilliams said:


> This sentence has one meaning.


How meaningful is it to respond to a message dated 11/22/2006 ?


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## ZeoTiVo

c3 said:


> How meaningful is it to respond to a message dated 11/22/2006 ?


as meaningful as my responding to your query with how meaningful is it to reply to an old post.

basically 3 posts with no meaning at all


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