# Things that Moxi has that TiVoi DVR should pick up and do



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

While Moxi still has a lot of new product kinks to work out and has new developments occurring daily and that is being discussed in another thread -- I thought a clear thread on the things that Moxi is doing that TiVo should pick up on and get into the series 3 and beyond would be a helpful thread

so here is my list from what I have read

- User interface in HD. (TiVo beta search is a good start but...)

- true pass-through (720p is output as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, etc)

- adjustable Skip 30 seconds, 1 min, etc.

- Online scheduling with real time conflict resolution
- You can delete recordings from online

ETA-
- I forgot about Hulu and other PC services via PlayOn support

- I bet TiVo could sell a lot of boxes if they did a monthly pay for lifetime deal.
($9 a month for MSd and 12$ a month 1st timers for 36 months )

oops - you can do this one on TiVo already
- LED on the front can be turned off.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

of that list only online real time scheduling is something I really want, as well as online SP handling.

As far as the LEDs, I can turn all of them off on the THD.


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

Update their tired GUI already.

Make it so you can do pretty much anything while still watching something like Moxi!

I also like the ticker feature for the weather, news, etc.

I'm seriously considering ordering a Moxi to try.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> - true pass-through (720p is output as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, etc)


Isn't that what setting the video output to "native" does?

My only real wish for TiVo right now is Hulu.


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## urwathrtz (Jan 18, 2008)

Hulu would be a sweet addition to TiVo. Still I wish there was a way to talk directly to your TiVo over the internets.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> While Moxi still has a lot of new product kinks to work out and has new developments occurring daily and that is being discussed in another thread -- I thought a clear thread on the things that Moxi is doing that TiVo should pick up on and get into the series 3 and beyond would be a helpful thread
> 
> so here is my list from what I have read


*Moxi Advantages*


Being a newer product, the hardware is based on newer technology (i.e. faster DVR CPU)

In of itself, this means little. But Moxi developers have more CPU cycles and memory bandwidth to work with when adding new features.

16:9 HD menus (as opposed to a 4:3 menus on a 16:9 HD background)

The Moxi UI has crisper, sharper text and graphics in the menus. In some cases, it takes advantage of the 16:9 aspect ratio to show more information on the screen.

No advertising whatsoever in the UI.

 *Fast* guide scrolling / scanning.

1.5 hour HD buffer *per tuner* (compared to 30 minutes for TiVo)

Can record *three* cable channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner is connected.

Moxi is looking into the possibility of supporting triple-tuner functionality on digital channels using the WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner.

Clear QAM channel mapping through a web interface to fully support HD locals on cable -- with program information-- *without* the need for a CableCard.

DLNA 1.0 client support allows access to music. photos, and videos on computers, network attached storage, mobile phones, and other devices *without* proprietary software.

Moxi includes a free license to "PlayOn" DLNA software for Windows, which allows you to watch Netflix, Hulu, CBS, YouTube, CNN, and ESPN Internet feeds through the Moxi;

Windows 7 has DLNA server functionality built-in, so you'll be able to right-click on a music or video file on your Windows 7 PC, select "Play to Moxi" from the pop-up menu, and that music or video file will begin playing on the Moxi.

Moxi is currently working to add DLNA 2.0 capability with DTCP-IP encryption. This will allow the Moxi to stream recordings throughout the home to other DLNA 2.0 compliant devices that support DTCP-IP encryption.

Conflict management allows you to choose which of the two conflicting programs you would like to skip. You aren't limited to skipping the lower priority program.

Storage expansion works with any external eSATA drive up to *2.0TB*, not just the My DVR Expander (500GB, 1TB).

External drives can be added and removed at will to archive recordings; recordings are not split across internal and external drives, so recordings are not lost when a drive is removed.

Adjustable duration on skip button (30 seconds, 3 minutes, etc).

Ability to display a small guide at bottom of the screen.

Picture window on every menu screen that shows the current liveTV channel and/or current recording.

On-screen widgets for weather, sports scores, stock quotes, etc, updated in real time.

Online scheduling with real time conflict resolution.

You can edit / delete recordings online.

Includes backlit remote (included with TivoHD XL, but a $50 option on TivoHD)

*Moxi Disadvantages*


$799 @ Amazon.com with lifetime service and 500GB drive; there is no option to purchase for less with monthly or yearly fees

No ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is *cable only*;

No support for SDV channels on cable _-- Moxi expects to add that capability this summer_;

No built-in support for analog channels; customers must request a free USB device to add a *single* analog tuner to the box;

Cannot download or transfer recordings to a computer; cannot view DVR recordings on a computer;

No support for multi-room viewing;

Later this year, Moxi plans to add multi-room viewing between Moxi DVRs and MoxiMate extenders. Unlike the current implementation of MRV on the TiVo, there will be *no restrictions* on what recordings can be streamed from one room to another, thanks to the use of DTCP-IP encryption.

No wishlists or comparable functionality (can't record based on search);

You cannot setup a single recording to record all new games with your favorite team, regardless of date, time, and channel. You cannot create a single recording to record all new pilots and season premieres. You cannot create a single recording for all new HD movies in a particular genre. You cannot create a recording for a future program not yet listed in the guide, whenever and wherever it shows.

No overlap protection, so 1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that can result in missed recordings;

Many networks run their programs 1-2 minutes past the hour, and this creates conflicts with programs on other networks. TiVo clips off 1-2 minutes from the lowest-priority conflicting program so it still gets recorded, whereas Moxi cancels the recording for the conflicting program.

Does not keep a record of recorded programs to prevent re-recording the same programs after they are deleted from the DVR;

Does not remember the position on the inactive tuner. You can't pause one tuner, switch to a different tuner, and then resume where you left off; the inactive tuner always switches to liveTV;

Lacks "traditional" grid-based program guide.

Moxi's guide is similar to the default "TiVo-style" guide in that it only shows upcoming programs for the currently selected channel. Moxi presents this information in much more graphical way, with quick access to content filters, but they actually show less upcoming program information on the screen (three upcoming timeslots, compared to *eight* timeslots on TiVo).
There is no option to use a traditional grid-based guide instead, as you can on the TiVo.

No manual recording screen. You can only create recordings from the program guide or by selecting a search result.

When you stop or finish a recording, the Moxi always displays a liveTV window, even when that is a recording-in-progress (such as a sporting event); there is no way to exit a recording without seeing the liveTV window;

If the user is recording a sports event to watch later, or to watch on a delay to skip commercials, the viewing experience is "spoiled" because the user sees the score before they've started to watch the recording. This behavior is detrimental to sports viewing, but sporting events aren't the only programs affected; key plot developments in movies and series may be revealed before the user has the opportunity to watch the recording. That is not the desired behavior -- it acts as a built-in spoiler.
When you finish watching a recorded program, the liveTV video window should always default to whatever channel is not recording. If two programs are recording, then display a black video window with a message, "Two recordings in progress. Press the LiveTV button to display the picture." If Moxi wishes to preserve the existing behavior for some users, then it should add this as an option in global settings.

No option to use a phone line for guide downloads; a network connection is required, using a direct run of ethernet cable, a wireless bridge, a powerline adapter, or a MoCA adapter.

Has only one CableCard slot, so a M-CARD is *required* for both tuners to function with digital cable. If your cable provider doesn't have M-CARDs available, then you won't get dual-tuner functionality.

No support for Netflix's HD; only supports Netflix SD, and only does so when a Windows PC is on and running the PlayOn software;

No support for Amazon Unbox's HDTV VOD service with series and movies downloads in 1080p24 with DD5.1 ($4.99 per HD movie, $2.99 per HD episode).

Auto-correction on FF / REW not as accurate as TiVo (subjective)

Moxi assumes that the user has faster reflexes, so it provides less auto-correction than TiVo.

Interface not as intuitive (subjective)


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

Yup - I'd like a longer buffer (30 min seems archaic when I have 88 hours of HD storage)
Also, the only thing I miss from my comcast box was the ability to watch TV while flipping through the menus...


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## johnny99 (Nov 10, 2008)

Tivo needs some good competition and a lot of the Moxi features sound interesting. DLNA and Hulu would be nice features for Tivo and they could probably give them to us with a firmware update.


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## mrro82 (Mar 30, 2008)

A ticker would be a huge bonus. Also, someone mentioned it already, but being able to do anything without being kicked back to the home screen. I like to be able to see what's on my now playing list without having to wait for a commercial to check it. Also, to be able to plug in almost an EHDD. Moxi wins on that front. I used to have a Moxi with Charter and when they upgraded the software and allowed that it was great.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

What is the ticker for? Screen crawls bug me enough, a constant ticker would be distracting to me.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... ...
> 
> - true pass-through (720p is output as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, etc)
> 
> ...


I thought native did the pass through- or do you mean we dont yet have 1080p24fps?

adjustable skip would be cool.

online scheduling in real time shouldn't be a big deal at all now that you mention it- isn't beta search already basically running on a tivo server but programming the boxes remotely in real time? If so just do the same thing on the tivo web server.

I'd one up remote real time scheduling and delete - do it from the web but also do it from another tivo in your house. Since the tivo search is doing it remotely already- why couldn't they use that as a basis to control other boxes in the house? They'd just have to put in a mechanism to pick which tivo you want to control. and then toss in remote delete. And presto-chango life is grand.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mrro82 said:


> ... I like to be able to see what's on my now playing list without having to wait for a commercial to check it. ....


why wait for a commerical? press pause. Go do what you want. Then return and hit play. Whenever the commercial comes up use ff or skip. It's just like you checked the NPL from the commerical but on your time. anytime.

but doesn't fix your want to have menues and tv.

Personally if they do the menu with PIP I'd prefer a way to disable it- make it an option.

I guess I could pause or learn to ignore it. But I'm always turning the tv on in the middle of it recording something. I just go to the NPL and pick a show (maybe even the one recording) to start from the beginning. I dont want to turn the tv on and wind up watching the middle of something.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

In my opinion the layout of the Moxi remote is superior:

- larger buttons, especially the transport controls.

- Select/OK button is in the middle of the directional controls

- Tivo/Moxi button is lower and more accessible

Here's a picture:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-04/moxi-hd-dvr-in-the-flesh/moxi-hd-dvr8/


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

spocko said:


> In my opinion the layout of the Moxi remote is superior:
> 
> - larger buttons, especially the transport controls.
> 
> ...


S3/lighted remote has the select button in the middle too if i recall (mine are in the drawer as i'm using harmony remotes)


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

jlb said:


> Isn't that what setting the video output to "native" does?


Am wondering the same thing after his comment.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Yes, native already passes through content as is. Though as of 11.0, it now stretches 480i/p content to 16x9 for some reason (HDMI only).

DLNA would be very useful as it is an industry standard (as opposed to HMO). It would allow streaming of music, photos and video off of NAS devices that support DLNA. It would also allow MRV to work with protected video content since the content would streamed, not copied.

Also I'd personally love to be able to see my To Do list on time, which I guess equates to real time conflict management.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

morac said:


> Yes, native already passes through content as is. Though as of 11.0, it now stretches 480i/p content to 16x9 for some reason (HDMI only).


That's an individual setting for you to make on your Tivo. Hit the "window" button to tell the Tivo if you want it full, pillared, or zoomed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

morac said:


> Yes, native already passes through content as is. Though as of 11.0, it now stretches 480i/p content to 16x9 for some reason (HDMI only).


yes - it has gotten better


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> That's an individual setting for you to make on your Tivo. Hit the "window" button to tell the Tivo if you want it full, pillared, or zoomed.


Hitting the "window" button doesn't change the output format for 480i/p content. The video is still output at 480 16x9 as reported by my TV. All the aspect button does is squash the stretched video approximately back to 4x3. So the TiVo takes a 4x3 video, stretches horizontally it to 16x9 and then squashes it back to 4x3 (it does differ slightly from the original 4x3 image).

The above process causes a number of problems with my TV:

 It interferes with my TV's ability to display the part of the video normally hidden by overscan. 
 The "zoom" feature on my TV is a lot better than the "zoom" feature on the TiVo, as the later cuts off part of the picture for letterbox content. 
 When I use the picture-in-picture feature on my TV, the TiVo's "window" is a rectangle for SD content since my TV thinks it's a wide-screen. This results in the actual video being smaller than it would be (a rectangle takes up more room than a square).
 The needless squashing and stretching degrades the image quality of SD video.
To me this one of the most annoying changes in 11.0. It's not any different that those HD channels that stretch SD content. I haven't been able to determine if it was done on purpose or not, but I've been told that the functionality will not be changed.

To get around this I turned off my TV's detection of an anamorphic signal on the input my TiVo is connected to and forced my TV to "normal" mode. This let's me use the TiVo and TV like I did pre-11.0 (except for PiP).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

morac said:


> Hitting the "window" button doesn't change the output format for 480i/p content. The video is still output at 480 16x9 as reported by my TV. All the aspect button does is squash the stretched video approximately back to 4x3. So the TiVo takes a 4x3 video, stretches horizontally it to 16x9 and then squashes it back to 4x3 (it does differ slightly from the original 4x3 image).
> 
> The above process causes a number of problems with my TV:
> 
> ...


If your TV thinks 480i material is 16x9, you have another problem. Pretty sure there is no 480i 16x9 specification over HDMI.

I know my VP is fine with it, and does what it's supposed to do (with the Tivo set to Full).


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## BrightestBear (Mar 4, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> why wait for a commerical? press pause. Go do what you want. Then return and hit play. Whenever the commercial comes up use ff or skip. It's just like you checked the NPL from the commerical but on your time. anytime.


I suspect the poster was saying s/he wants to go straight to the NPL rather than the home screen (which contains an ad at the bottom), then to the NPL.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

_Something I hadn't seen before..._

Moxi FAQ #26:


> Good news. The MOXI HD DVR was architected with the whole home in mind. At the recent Consumer Electronics Show, we showed our multi-room client product, but haven't announced the release date or price and will do that very soon. When we introduce this product, all the capabilities of the MOXI HD DVR can be accessed in other rooms including the recordings. No time consuming transfers as with TiVo. Recordings would be streamed over your home networks for instant access. *If you wanted to get started today though, you could also buy a second MOXI HD DVR and the two will work together in the same manner. *


If true, and this is supported today, then it sounds like Moxi has a superior multi-room implementation that is not subject to the same [copyright] restrictions as MRV with digital cable on the TivoHD and TiVo Series3.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> If your TV thinks 480i material is 16x9, you have another problem. Pretty sure there is no 480i 16x9 specification over HDMI.


Actually there is. It's called Anamorphic Wide screen. There's a flag that gets set when a device is outputting a 480i/p signal that it wants displayed at 16x9. When a TV capable of detecting this flag detects the flag, the TV will automatically switch to wide screen (16x9) mode. This is how wide screen TV's know to play wide screen (Anamorphic or Enhanced For 16x9 Televisions) DVDs in wide screen mode.

As of 11.0, the TiVo always sets the "anamorphic flag" for 480i/p content when the TiVo's "TV Aspect Ratio" setting is set to "16:9 Widescreen". At least it does for HDMI. As I said, I disabled the setting on my TV that automatic switches to wide screen upon detection of this flag to get around this.

If TiVo properly used the flag, then wide screen Netflix videos would display in wide screen and pan and scan videos would display normally. Users wouldn't even need to use the "aspect" button since the aspect would be set automatically.

In any case, this has nothing to do with possible feature requests from TiVo, so I'm not going to talk about this in the thread any more.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> _
> If true, and this is supported today, then it sounds like Moxi has a superior multi-room implementation that is not subject to the same [copyright] restrictions as MRV with digital cable on the TivoHD and TiVo Series3._


_

We already know the Series 3 TiVos are capable of receiving and playing streaming video so I don't see why this functionality could not be added to the S3. It probably wouldn't be all that difficult to do since from the sending TiVo's perspective there is no difference between copying and streaming.

It should be as simple as allowing "copying" of copy protected videos to another TiVo, but having the receiving TiVo "stream" instead "saving". Then make the necessary changes to state the video will be streamed instead of copied.

Actually one would think TiVo would be allowed to do a normal copy and use the delete after 90 minute flag to get around the copy protected MRV issue. I'm not sure why that isn't allowed._


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> If your TV thinks 480i material is 16x9, you have another problem. Pretty sure there is no 480i 16x9 specification over HDMI.
> 
> I know my VP is fine with it, and does what it's supposed to do (with the Tivo set to Full).


The bug was introduced in 11.0 afaik. It isn't a issue with a particular model of television.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> S3/lighted remote has the select button in the middle too if i recall (mine are in the drawer as i'm using harmony remotes)


Yes. 









The Moxi box itself looks very nice - better than the current generic looking TiVos - but their remote looks like a $10 replacement remote.


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

Langree said:


> What is the ticker for? Screen crawls bug me enough, a constant ticker would be distracting to me.


you can just turn it on when you want to...it can show your local weather forecast, stocks, news


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> Moxi Advantages
> 
> 
> Hardware is based on newer technology (Broadcom BCM740x)
> ...


Reading all that, my reaction is:

- The Moxi advantages are nice, but not critical
- Most of the Moxi disadvantages are *critical*


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I like some of the new features (esp the larger buffers), but almost any of the below would be a deal killer; added up makes it a no-go at this time.


bkdtv said:


> Moxi Disadvantages
> 
> [*] no ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is *cable only*
> 
> ...


I have 50+ WL. Would hate to lose them. And I switch between tuners all the time (pause, flip, play, pause, flip--repeat); forgetting my paused spot would render it useless.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> [*] Can record three channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner is connected. Moxi is looking into the possibility of supporting triple-tuner functionality on digital channels.


Oh, only one analog channel? Darn, I thought that that tuner gave dual analog recording..


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mattack said:


> Oh, only one analog channel? Darn, I thought that that tuner gave dual analog recording..


Yes, just one.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Nice summary bkdtv. In keeping with the title of this thread, here are my top picks from the "advantages" list for TiVo to pick up and do.

- Larger and/or user-adjustable buffers

- DLNA support

- Better online scheduling with real time conflict resolution

- Ability to edit/delete recordings online

- 16:9 UI. Not very important since I think Tivo's UI is intuitive and functional, but sometimes the stretching bugs me from an aesthetic standpoint.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Just got this reply from Moxi on the status of MRV:



> Apologies that our FAQ wasn't clear and we will fix that. We plan to introduce multi-room HD DVR functionality *this year*; soon you will be able to use your Moxi for multi-room viewing. While your Moxi HD DVR does not yet have the multi-room functionality, the great news is that when we release this new product, the corresponding software upgrade to your main DVR will occur automatically and at no cost! No time consumer transfers as with the competitive product. Recordings would be streamed over your home networks for instant access.
> 
> If you wanted to get started today though, you could also buy a second Moxi HD DVR - one for each room - and when we introduce the multi-room software upgrade, the two Moxi's will work together in the same manner to be able to share content between one another, or with "Moxi Mates" when we introduce them. Content recorded, even premium copy-protected shows will be able to be streamed from the Moxi HD DVR to another Moxi HD DVR or Moxi Mate with complete transport control to pause, rewind and fast-forward.


Their emphasis, not mine.

For now at least, MRV remains a TiVo advantage.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

For all of you discussing Native output, aspect ratios, the Window button and HDMI please read this thread

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=415737 (it gets better later on)

There is a long standing bug that breaks a basic but very important part of the TiVo which has NOT BEEN FIXED and it makes me want to rip my hair out.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> *Moxi Advantages*
> 
> Hardware is based on newer technology (Broadcom BCM740x)


Newer in no way implies better. What additional features are implemented or how is real-world performance improved with the newer chipset? I'm not sayng it isn't, as I really don't know, but unless the implementation takes advantage of the potential features, a newer chipset is no advantage. #1 corollary to this notion: does the Moxi have a 1000BaseT port?



bkdtv said:


> 16:9 HD interface (as opposed to a 4:3 interface on a 16:9 HD background)


'Couldn't possibly care less unless the interface reduces or eliminates graphics altogether and increases text density. If it shows 20 programs *WITH SYNOPSES* at once or more in its equivalent of the NPL, then it's a winner, although even 9 would admittedly be better than the TiVo. Otherwise, HD menus are just a waste of drive space.



bkdtv said:


> 3.0 hour HD buffer (1.5 hour HD buffer *per tuner*)


Since I've never used the buffer and never will, this is a particularly underwhelming advantage. Since I can't see how it comes without a space penalty, I vote this a disadvantage, and zero would be better. User configurable to zero would be OK.



bkdtv said:


> Multi-room viewing between Moxi DVRs, with no restrictions. There are no restrictions on the ability to stream recordings from one room to another. *Update: Not yet supported. Planned for later this year.*


'So it's not an advantage.



bkdtv said:


> Can record three channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner is connected.


Nothing is free, including the WinTV-HR-1950. One way or the other, the consumer pays for it. More to the point, however, is free or not, why would anyone want to record analog if one has digital sources, or even if one doesn't? 'Definitely not an advantage in my book. If I were a Moxi owner, rather than get the "free" adapter, I would demand Moxi refund me the money for the adapter I didn't get.



bkdtv said:


> Moxi is looking into the possibility of supporting triple-tuner functionality on digital channels.


"Looking into" is not an advantage.



bkdtv said:


> QAM channel mapping through an online (web) interface to fully support HD locals on cable -- with program information-- *without* the need for a CableCard;


Not only is this not an advantage, it is potentially a really bad idea.



bkdtv said:


> DLNA 1.0 client support allows access to music. photos, and videos on computers, network attached storage, mobile phones, and other devices *without* proprietary software.


The Tivo does not require proprietary software. HMO and HME are published standards, in the public domain, I think. True, it's not DLNA, but it's not proprietary. Nonetheless, DLNA is an advantage, so score one for Moxi.



bkdtv said:


> Includes a free license to "PlayOn" DLNA software for Windows, which allows you to watch Netflix, Hulu, CBS, YouTube, CNN, and ESPN Internet feeds through the Moxi;


'And requires one to use Windows. No thanks. I have enough aggravation in my life without having to deal with another Windows app.



bkdtv said:


> Moxi is working to add DLNA 2.0 capability with DTCP-IP encryption. This will allow the Moxi to stream recordings throughout the home to other DLNA 2.0 compliant devices that support DTCP-IP encryption;


"Working on" is not an advantage.



bkdtv said:


> Conflict management allows you to choose which two of the conflicting programs you would like to skip; you aren't limited to skipping the lower priority program


OK, score a big one for Moxi.



bkdtv said:


> Adjustable duration on skip button (30 seconds, 1 minute, 3 minutes, etc)


Hmmm. In my book, that's a pretty tiny whistle. I don't bother with the 30 second skip, so I doubt I would bother with a programmable skip. Still, small thoiugh it may be, I must admit it is an advantage.



bkdtv said:


> Works with any external drive, not just the My DVR Expander


So do all S3 TiVos, right out of the box. For that matter so do all TiVo HDs, with a trivial amount of effort. I call, "No significant advantage."



bkdtv said:


> External drives can be added and removed at will to archive recordings


In my estimation, this isone of those things that rather sounds nice, but I think it would be even more trouble than changing tapes in a VCR. I happily gave up swapping media long ago. With 2 Terabyte drives on the shelves right now, I fail to see this as a real advantage. I positively shudder at the thought of having 5 or 6 drives sitting on the shelf, each loaded with 300 or 400 videos, and trying to find which one holds the video one wants. One would have to have some unbelievably tiny handwriting to fit 400 titles on a label that will fit on a hard drive. Keeping the labels updated would be a full time nightmare. 'No thanks. I'll definitely stick with a network server.



bkdtv said:


> recordings are not split across internal and external drives, and recordings are not lost when a drive is removed


So how does one know which programs are going to sit on the shelf with the removed hard drive?



bkdtv said:


> Can display small guide at bottom of screen


Since I never under any circumstances use a guide and do not recommend any one else does, either, I'm disinclined to consider this an advantage. Nonetheless, since some people inexplicably to me want a guide, I suppose this must be considered an advantage. The advantages are getting smaller and smaller, though.



bkdtv said:


> Picture window in menus and program guide shows current liveTV channel and/or current recording


I truy fail to see how this would be useful. Who cares what's recording when one is doing something else? Of course, since I persoanally rarely do anything else but watch programs, this seems truly absurd, but even if I did, I can't see how this would be desirable.



bkdtv said:


> On-screen widgets for weather, sports scores, stock quotes, etc, updated in real time


These are freely available for the TiVo, or at least most of them. Galleon certainly supports a terrific weather app, as well as RSS feeds. In all, there were 15 significant Galleon plug-ins when I last checked, and there are liable to be more now. I'm very hard pressed to call this an advantage for Moxi. Depending upon implementation, Moxi may be at a disadvantage in this respect.



bkdtv said:


> Online scheduling with real time conflict resolution


I would have to see it in operation before I would be willing to call this an advantage. The fact the user wuld actually have to interact with the feature marks points off, but if the implementation is really fast, convenient, and effective with minimal user interaction, then I'll give this one to Moxi. TiVo's online scheduling is horrible.



bkdtv said:


> You can edit / delete recordings online


By "edit" do you mean edit the schedule? Trying to edit the programs online would be a real mess, and an agonizingly slow one, at that. Of course TiVopWebPlus has allowed one to do this for years, but it requires a hacked TiVo. If the implementation is good, then Moxi picks up a few points.



bkdtv said:


> *Moxi Disadvantages*
> 
> $799 @ Amazon.com with lifetime service and 500GB drive; there is no option to purchase for less with monthly or yearly fees


A wider variety of choice is usually an advantage, yes. Still, I am actually disinclined to take off very much for this disadvanage.



bkdtv said:


> no ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is *cable only*


Personally, at least, I'm even less inclined to take off many points for this.



bkdtv said:


> [*] no support for SDV channels _-- Moxi expects to add that capability this summer_


That one's very significant, and growing more so by the day.



bkdtv said:


> no built-in support for analog channels; customers must request a free USB device to add a *single* analog tuner to the box


I don't see this as a real disadvantage, at all.



bkdtv said:


> no ability to download recordings to a computer


-100,000,000 points! Deal breaker supreme. Any DVR not capable of transferring to and from a PC / server is all but useless. I would have no use at all for 2 of my 3 TiVos if they could not interface with the server, and the 3rd TiVo would be crippled in the extreme.



bkdtv said:


> no wishlists or comparable functionality (can't record based on search)


Another mega deal breaker! One of the most important features of the TiVo is the ability to set a wishlist. I have dozens of recently released movies in wishlists which will automatically record when they are released on a premium channel, perhaps a year or even two from now.

Missing these two extremely critical features makes the Moxi not much more than a VCR on steroids.



bkdtv said:


> no overlap protection (1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that result in missed recordings)


Ooh! That's bad. 'Not quite a deal breaker, but bad, bad, bad. I wanted to jump up and down when TiVo introduced this a couple of years ago. I would hardly be thrilled to give it up.



bkdtv said:


> doesn't keep a record of recorded programs to prevent recording the same episode again after it is deleted from the DVR


That's certainly annoying. It's not the worst thing on Earth, but it's enough to offset many of the formerly earned advantage points. If the massive deal breakers hadn't already wiped them out, that is.



bkdtv said:


> doesn't remember position on inactive tuner; you can't pause one tuner, switch to a different tuner, and then resume where you left off; the inactive tuner always switches to liveTV


Well, that's fine by me. 'No need to beat a dead horse over something about which I really don't care, I suppose.



bkdtv said:


> no support for Netflix HD; only supports Netflix SD, and only does so when a Windows PC is on and running the PlayOn software


Yeah, that's a disadvantage.

The rest are quite minor, if you ask me. Compared to the overwhelming disadvantages above, they are downright insignificant.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

spocko said:


> Nice summary bkdtv. In keeping with the title of this thread, here are my top picks from the "advantages" list for TiVo to pick up and do.
> 
> - Larger and/or user-adjustable buffers


I vote, "Absolutely not!" for larger buffers. I'll vote, "Definitely yes" fore user adjustable, particularly if the user can shut them off entirely. (In practical terms, there has to be some buffer, but 30 seconds is plenty). I'll take an extra hour or two of saved recordings any day.


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Newer in no way implies better. What additional features are implemented or how is real-world performance improved with the newer chipset? I'm not sayng it isn't, as I really don't know, but unless the implementation takes advantage of the potential features, a newer chipset is no advantage. #1 corollary to this notion: does the Moxi have a 1000BaseT port?
> 
> 'Couldn't possibly care less unless the interface reduces or eliminates graphics altogether and increases text density. If it shows 20 programs *WITH SYNOPSES* at once or more in its equivalent of the NPL, then it's a winner, although even 9 would admittedly be better than the TiVo. Otherwise, HD menus are just a waste of drive space.
> 
> ...


the fan boy has spoken


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> So do all S3 TiVos, right out of the box. For that matter so do all TiVo HDs, with a trivial amount of effort. I call, "No significant advantage."


S3s were never supposed to support any external drive. That was only done because the back door to enable external drive support was found before it could be locked down.

Based on your statement from this same post, "I have enough aggravation in my life without having to deal with another Windows app", I'm surprised you would even call adding a non-supported external drive to a TiVo HD trivial. I don't call having to remove the internal drive from a TiVo HD, hooking both it and the new external drive up to a Windows PC (with eSATA interfaces) a "trivial amount of effort".

So I would score this as a Moxy point.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

lrhorer said:


> I'll vote, "Definitely yes" fore user adjustable, particularly if the user can shut them off entirely. (In practical terms, there has to be some buffer, but 30 seconds is plenty).


Hmm, I'd guess that this opinion is shared by few people. With little or no buffer, you'd have little or no ability pause and rewind live TV. To each his own though. I guess that's why user-adjustble buffer size would be ideal.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

xboard07 said:


> the fan boy has spoken


Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread. Can you please at least avoid such huge quotes when you have nothing to add?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Can record three channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner is connected.
> 
> No built-in support for analog channels; customers must request a free USB device to add a *single* analog tuner to the box
> 
> No ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is *cable only*


The free dongle provides analog cable reception and works well. Don't buy Moxi without getting one. Moxi's approach covers analog cable differently than TiVo; it trades having one fewer tuner for the capability of recording three programs simultaneously.

As an unheralded bonus Moxi's analog dongle can be used to provide standard-def semi-manual recordings of cable Premium channels without a CableCARD when connected to a digital cable STB or semi-manual recordings of digital OTA channels when connected to a Coupon eligible OTA Converter. Semi-manual because Moxi can be set to record any channel 24/7 or any time bloc desired. Both Comcast's DCT 2000 STB and this Coupon eligible Converter provide auto-tuning for VCRs.
http://www.dtvboxanswers.com/zinwellzat970a.html



> Works with any external drive, not just the My DVR Expander
> 
> External drives can be added and removed at will to archive recordings; recordings are not split across internal and external drives, and recordings are not lost when a drive is removed
> 
> $799 @ Amazon.com with lifetime service and 500GB drive; there is no option to purchase for less with monthly or yearly fees


Unlimited storage at a competitive price!



> No overlap protection (1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that result in missed recordings)


Overlap protection must be provided manually with padding which can shorten a recording in 1 min. steps up to 5 min.



> Adjustable duration on skip button (30 seconds, 1 minute, 3 minutes, etc)


Unfortunately no 1 min. skip. Skip is adjustable to 30 secs. (default), 3 min., 5 min., or 15 min. But _Back_ and _Next_ buttons already skip 15 min. in either direction.



> Picture window in menus and program guide shows current liveTV channel and/or current recording
> 
> Doesn't remember position on inactive tuner; you can't pause one tuner, switch to a different tuner, and then resume where you left off; the inactive tuner always switches to liveTV
> 
> When you press the STOP button on a recording, Moxi displays a liveTV window, even if that is a recording-in-progress (such as a sporting event); there is no way to exit a recording without seeing the liveTV window


Moxi has a design philosophy very different from TiVo, regardless of specific operational similarities shared by both DVRs. Moxi essentially works like a traditional cable DVR on steroids. Its focus is toward live programming with trick play, relatively long recording buffers and showing either live or recorded programs continuously unless a user intentionally pauses the playing program when going into menus. It supports two ongoing recording buffers (and/or three simultaneous recordings) but always reverts to the present when switching tuners. Hardcore TiVo fanmen and women probably won't be drawn to Moxi.



> Auto-correction on FF/REW not as accurate as TiVo (subjective)
> 
> Interface not as intuitive (subjective)


Definitely subjective! I disagree about auto-correction but agree about GUI. First couple of days were a GUI daze with Moxi, but after short steep learning curve it's OK. Still like ReplayTV's best! TiVo's auto-correction is overkill for me; Moxi's is closer. I also like Moxi inserting a play mode when cycling through the speeds.



> No option to use a phone line for guide downloads; requires a wired connection using a direct run of ethernet cable, a wireless bridge, a powerline adapter, or a MoCA adapter


Moxi can only be used with Broadband; probably keeps costs and complexity to a minimum.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> I vote, "Absolutely not!" for larger buffers. I'll vote, "Definitely yes" for user adjustable, particularly if the user can shut them off entirely. (In practical terms, there has to be some buffer, but 30 seconds is plenty). I'll take an extra hour or two of saved recordings any day.


Many total timeshifters have no use for a recording buffer. Moxi does offer unlimited storage from standard DVR grade eSATA HDDs so buffer length is less critcal. I vote 'definitely yes' for user adjustable buffers.

Moxi's buffer appears to average about 3-4 hours for either digital or analog standard-def and 1.5 to 2 hours for high-def. Since I'm not a total timeshifter, that's fine. It appears that the EPG's program duration info influences Moxi's buffer length but that's just my guess at this point.

Moxi's buffer is dropped in time increments, unlike TiVo's smoothly advancing buffer's beginning.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> *Moxi Advantages*
> 
> [*]16:9 HD interface (as opposed to a 4:3 interface on a 16:9 HD background)
> 
> [*] Storage expansion works with any external drive, not just the My DVR Expander.


I'm in no rush to see a 16:9 HD interface on Tivo. Think of all the extra screen real estate to sell to advertisers. Yuk.

There's a very good reason why Tivo does not support any external drive. It's called containing your support costs. I support Tivo's model here as long as their solution is reasonably priced.


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## Philtho (Feb 10, 2006)

Tivo needs the equivalent of the "Moxi mate" .. Basically its a small little box that you hook up to a TV in some other room and you basically can watch content off your main Moxi in some other room. It has no hard drive, no DVR capabailities, it just lets you view and access your main Tivo independently. 

I so want this for my bedroom. Then I can watch all my TV shows while im trying to fall asleep off the main Tivo in the living room. No extra subscription fees or anything. Just a small purchase for a tiny interface box.

Right now to do this, you need to buy a second Tivo, a second subscription, and use the multiroom feature. This is archaic, expensive, and a bit noisy. (Since the DVR has a hard drive, and fans)


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

xboard07 said:


> the fan boy has spoken


You beat me to it. I do like my TiVo, but I am not blinded by it.

I want a second DVR, and would seriously consider the Moxi but the 2 show stoppers for the Moxi are:

Not OTA
No MRV support for my TiVo. I want a 2nd TiVo to be able to send recordings to my bedroom and I do not plan to toss my current TiVo.

Another huge factor is that I can get a 2nd TiVo with lifetime for $500. The Moxi is $800


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

morac said:


> Anamorphic Wide screen. There's a flag that gets set when a device is outputting a 480i/p signal that it wants displayed at 16x9. When a TV capable of detecting this flag detects the flag, the TV will automatically switch to wide screen (16x9) mode. This is how wide screen TV's know to play wide screen (Anamorphic or Enhanced For 16x9 Televisions) DVDs in wide screen mode.
> 
> As of 11.0, the TiVo always sets the "anamorphic flag" for 480i/p content when the TiVo's "TV Aspect Ratio" setting is set to "16:9 Widescreen". At least it does for HDMI. As I said, I disabled the setting on my TV that automatic switches to wide screen upon detection of this flag to get around this.
> 
> ...


I'll briefly bring this back only to state that when sending a hi-def sourced signal from TiVo or Sony's hi-def DVR to a DVD recorder I can get it to record in anamorphic full screen, while a DVD recorded from a high-def signal from Moxi or Comcast's DVR must be zoomed thus losing resolution.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Just got this reply from Moxi on the status of MRV:
> 
> Apologies that our FAQ wasnt clear and we will fix that. We plan to introduce multi-room HD DVR functionality *this year*; soon you will be able to use your Moxi for multi-room viewing. While your Moxi HD DVR does not yet have the multi-room functionality, the great news is that when we release this new product, the corresponding software upgrade to your main DVR will occur automatically and at no cost! No time consumer transfers as with the competitive product. Recordings would be streamed over your home networks for instant access.
> 
> ...


I didn't think that two Moxi's can MRV yet; thanks for the update.

OT, but so many of TiVo'd shows are copy protected that TiVo's MRV is less useful than it could/should be.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

fallingwater said:


> OT, but so many of TiVo'd shows are copy protected that TiVo's MRV is less useful than it could/should be.


I think that is a product of where you live. Because there isn't a single show on my TiVo that cannot be transferred using MRV, aside from content downloaded by the TiVo.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Wow. I'm impressed. They are serious about this aren't they? One big drawback I'm seeing, is that the software for displaying photos and home movies is "Windows" only. I know that doesn't affect everyone, but a lot of us here have Macs.

Also, what do they mean it will record two digital and one "analog channel"? Aren't all channels now "Digital" due to that digital transition act thing that is going around or is that something else? 

Being able to record 3 digital channels at once, is a MAJOR advantage to the Moxi. If TiVo could do that I'd be in heaven. I have four tuners and I still hit conflicts from time to time. 6 would probably solve that for me. The good news is, if Moxi does it, that means TiVo probably will too. Eventually... Hopefully...


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I think that is a product of where you live. Because there isn't a single show on my TiVo that cannot be transferred using MRV, aside from content downloaded by the TiVo.


It's mostly anything you record on HBO, SHOWTIME, etc. Most of that content has a copy flag and won't transfer. Even some of the series are Copy Protected. Pretty pointless as far as I'm concerned. :down:

Side question: Does the Moxi delete PPV's that have the "Delete after 90 minutes" copy protection flag? I HATE that feature on my S3 TiVo box. PPV's must be watched "live" or TiVo will delete them without being watched after 90 minutes. It's the only reason I still have a Comcast DVR. Because it doesn't have that "feature".


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

bareyb said:


> Wow. I'm impressed. They are serious about this aren't they?


The person answering questions for Moxi is surprisingly open in their responses. *Paraphrasing*, since I already deleted the email:



> TiVo is devoting its resources to advertising, while we are devoting our resources to create the best DVR available anywhere.
> 
> We already feel we have the better DVR, but we are working hard to eliminate any last advantages the TiVo may have. Expect DVR functionality to improve significantly over the course of the year.
> 
> This new functionality will be delivered to your DVR automatically and at no cost!


Now, some of this is marketing hyperbole, but one thing seems clear -- TiVo can't sit back with the functionality they've got and expect to remain competitive moving forward.



bareyb said:


> Also, what do they mean it will record two digital and one "analog channel"? Aren't all channels now "Digital" due to that digital transition act thing that is going around or is that something else?


Most cable providers still have analog channels. A minority of cable companies still have analog channels without digital versions.



bareyb said:


> Being able to record 3 digital channels at once, is a MAJOR advantage to the Moxi.


The box itself only has two digital tuners. But to everyone that requests analog support, Moxi provides a WinTV-HVR-1950 USB tuner. This plugs into the USB port on the Moxi.

The WinTV-HVR-1950 actually has analog, QAM, and ATSC tuners, but the current Moxi software only supports it as an analog tuner. But Moxi is looking into the possibility of using the QAM portion of the product to allow recording of a third digital channel.



bareyb said:


> Side question: Does the Moxi delete PPV's that have the "Delete after 90 minutes" copy protection flag? I HATE that feature on my S3 TiVo box. PPV's must be watched "live" or TiVo will delete them without being watched after 90 minutes. It's the only reason I still have a Comcast DVR. Because it doesn't have that "feature".


This is a requirement of the CableLabs' DFAST (CableCard) licensing agreement. Every CE vendor that wants to create a CableCard DVR must adhere to that "delete after 90 minutes" requirement on PPV content flagged as "copy never."

Cable companies can choose to do what they want with their own boxes; they don't have to adhere to these requirements.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

> TiVo is devoting its resources to advertising, while we are devoting our resources to create the best DVR available anywhere.
> 
> We already feel we have the better DVR, but we are working hard to eliminate any last advantages the TiVo may have. Expect DVR functionality to improve significantly over the course of the year.
> 
> This new functionality will be delivered to your DVR automatically and at no cost!


I like their style... They sound hungry. This is the first viable competitor I've seen for TiVo. They have a lot of functionality that TiVo is behind on. If TiVo continues putting more and more Ads on their boxes I'd be seriously tempted to give these guys a try. They still have to work out the MRV feature but it sounds like that's already in the works. Good for them. I wish them well. This bodes well for _all_ DVR users.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

bareyb said:


> It's mostly anything you record on HBO, SHOWTIME, etc. Most of that content has a copy flag and won't transfer. Even some of the series are Copy Protected. Pretty pointless as far as I'm concerned. :down:
> 
> Side question: Does the Moxi delete PPV's that have the "Delete after 90 minutes" copy protection flag? I HATE that feature on my S3 TiVo box. PPV's must be watched "live" or TiVo will delete them without being watched after 90 minutes. It's the only reason I still have a Comcast DVR. Because it doesn't have that "feature".


I'm able to copy movies (using PyTiVo) that were recorded on Showtime, Starz, TMC, and ENCR. I can't speak to HBO, as I do not get that channel.

Reading some of the posts has me considering putting my 2nd TiVo purchase on hold, for a Moxi or a newer TiVo. But, I would only consider a 2nd generation Moxi box that supports OTA. But it's certainly clear that TiVo needs to respond to Moxi's box and they need to do so before Moxi becomes too large.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I'm able to copy movies (using PyTiVo) that were recorded on Showtime, Starz, TMC, and ENCR. I can't speak to HBO, as I do not get that channel.


He was talking about MRV, but PyTiVo is certainly a good work around. I'm guessing if it works on Showtime it probably works on HBO. :up:


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

bareyb said:


> He was talking about MRV, but PyTiVo is certainly a good work around. I'm guessing if it works on Showtime it probably works on HBO. :up:


I thought that PyTiVo respected TiVo's MRV restrictions. I know it tells me that downloaded content is copy protected, even if I downloaded it from my own PC.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

morac said:


> The video is still output at 480 16x9 as reported by my TV. All the aspect button does is squash the stretched video approximately back to 4x3. So the TiVo takes a 4x3 video, stretches horizontally it to 16x9 and then squashes it back to 4x3 (it does differ slightly from the original 4x3 image).


I think the TiVo adds black or grey bars (user-selectable color) to the sides of the 4x3 image and transmits that resultant 16:9 image to the 16:9 TV. Occam's razor - why would the TiVo stretch it and re-squish it?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

bareyb said:


> Also, what do they mean it will record two digital and one "analog channel"? Aren't all channels now "Digital" due to that digital transition act thing that is going around or is that something else?


Analog cable. Moxi doesn't do OTA so the digital transition doesn't affect it.


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## clark_kent (May 6, 2007)

To me, the deal maker/breaker on any new DVR is the number of tuners in a single box. The Moxi features and UI will evolve with time as will TiVo's. BUT, no new Moxi or TiVo for me unless it's got at least 4 tuners.

And, to those that would say "just get another TiVo" my answer is (re-posted from another thread):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7232880#post7232880

That is not a very good (or elegant) solution. Especially for households that have more then one person "running" a TiVo.

I believe a single M-Card is capable of supporting up to 6 simultaneous steams. If that's correct, in theory, you could record up to 6 concurrent programs all at once with a single box and manage all the recordings within that one box. No chuck and jive between 2 boxes and remembering which box manages which recordings.

TiVo should have come out with a 4 tuner box as soon as M-Cards become readily available. Or, at least introduced an option for 4 tuners along with the TiVoHDXL for $799. Moxi could have leap frogged TiVo by coming out the gate with a 4 tuner box and gained a significant "wow" factor. Moxi missed an opportunity to clearly position itself head and shoulder above a TiVo.

With so much programming available, I think there are plenty of customers that would like to be able to record, or time-shift more then just 2 programs at a time and telling those folks to get a "second" box is not the answer, IMHO.

I for one, can only hope to see a 4 tuner TiVo as a Series 4 in the not to distant future. I'm tiered of telling my wife that she can only pick 2 programs at a time. And, I'm tired of not being able to record something that I'd like to record because my wife already pick her 2 programs to record.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bareyb said:


> ...
> 
> Side question: Does the Moxi delete PPV's that have the "Delete after 90 minutes" copy protection flag? I HATE that feature on my S3 TiVo box. PPV's must be watched "live" or TiVo will delete them without being watched after 90 minutes. It's the only reason I still have a Comcast DVR. Because it doesn't have that "feature".


considering cablelabs wont approve the box without that required "feature" and without approval then no soup (cablecards) for you. Yep I'll bet you a decent sum that moxi does that too.

if not yet- give it about 3 days till cablelabs figures it out- laughing.

comcast's DVR doesn't have that becasue like so much cable BS- their own boxes down have to abide by the omnious rules that they impose on 3rd parties.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

clark_kent said:


> To me, the deal maker/breaker on any new DVR is the number of tuners in a single box. The Moxi features and UI will evolve with time as will TiVo's. BUT, no new Moxi or TiVo for me unless it's got at least 4 tuners.
> 
> And, to those that would say "just get another TiVo" my answer is (re-posted from another thread):
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7232880#post7232880
> ...


i beleive the limiting factor has been the "DVR on a chip" brains that broadcomm seems to make for everyone only recently became availible that could handle more than 2 recorded streams at a time.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I thought that PyTiVo respected TiVo's MRV restrictions. I know it tells me that downloaded content is copy protected, even if I downloaded it from my own PC.


I was just going off what he'd said. I have never used PyTiVo. But I plan to.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Analog cable. Moxi doesn't do OTA so the digital transition doesn't affect it.


Ah. Of course. Got it. Thanks.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> S3s were never supposed to support any external drive. That was only done because the back door to enable external drive support was found before it could be locked down.


Absolutely. To the end user, however, it doesn't really matter why it was done, does it? We're not really comparing the relative consumer frendliness of TiVo, Inc and the Moxi parent company, we're comparing the relative features of the end product. Whether those features are incidental, accidental, or by design intent isn't the main focus of the discussion. That said, I'll allow the distinction is worth noting: TiVo didn't do it to be helpful.



morac said:


> Based on your statement from this same post, "I have enough aggravation in my life without having to deal with another Windows app", I'm surprised you would even call adding a non-supported external drive to a TiVo HD trivial.


Oh, yeah, quite trivial. By comparison, I'm fighting a battle right now on my video server which appears to have a front line between the reiserfs file system and the md RAID code in the Kernel. The bug causes the file system to completely shut down for up to 20 minutes during a RAID resync or about 40 seconds during heavy reading or writing activity on an intermittent basis when a file is created on the array. The battle has been going on for 5 months, and now for the next four days the array is going to be down while I delete it, re-work the array, format with an XFS file system, rather than reiserfs, and then copy all 7 TB of videos back on to the array from the backups. Even closer to home, as it were, I've hacked some of my TiVos now several dozen times. While it is easy and takes less than 5 minutes with the appropriate tools in place, it is still vastly more involved than upgrading a TiVo hard drive system, whether by marriage or by replacement.



morac said:


> I don't call having to remove the internal drive from a TiVo HD, hooking both it and the new external drive up to a Windows PC (with eSATA interfaces) a "trivial amount of effort".


'No Windows PC required, and it's certainly less effort than balancing my checkbook or doing my taxes. It's definitely less aggravating. Regardless of anything else, unless it involves actual physical pain, I can't see my way to considering anything which takes less than ten minutes and onlyhas to be done once to be more than trivial. Manually marrying an internal TiVo drive to an external drive takes less than ten leisurely minutes. That is including the time it takes to open the case (the drive doesn't have to be removed, just accessed) and shut it back up again. The actual time spent marrying the drives is literally less than ten seconds. With most modern PCs, it isn't even necessary to shut down and reboot the host PC - the TiVo drive and expansion drive can be hot-plugged if one has enough free SATA ports on the system.



morac said:


> So I would score this as a Moxy point.


I'm not conceding the point. Add to the fact the process is extremely easy the fact it is fun - certainly far more fun that doing taxes or taking out the trash - and then add to that the fact one can take the very prudent (essential if you ask me) additional step* of creating a backup TiVo drive which will allow the user to be back up and running in a matter of minutes in case of a drive failure, and I see no way this is by any means an advantage.

* Admittedly the backup requires more than 3 or 4 minutes, depending upon the scope. Depending on the process one chooses, it can take as much as several hours, but in no case does it need to be baby-sat. One can simply start the process and go away (perhaps to sleep) for a few hours.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

spocko said:


> Hmm, I'd guess that this opinion is shared by few people. With little or no buffer, you'd have little or no ability pause and rewind live TV. To each his own though. I guess that's why user-adjustble buffer size would be ideal.


Well, first of all, it is of course a personal opinion. That is what we are expressing in this forum and this thread in particular. If you want my professional opinion, rather than my personal one, I'll have a different statement to make. Secondly, as this is an informal debate forum, when offering an argument, I'm generally going to offer it in a stark contrast mode. Reality and casual usage may often lie closer to the middle of the road. That said, there's really no advantage whatsoever to watching live TV, as opposed to pre-recorded content, unless of course it's a weather advisory and a tornado is headed one's way. It's quite rare I watch any program less than an hour after it is recorded, and more typically it is about 1 to 4 days later. Occasionally it is more than a year. There are quite a few movies on the server which were recorded more than a year ago, and which I definitely want to at least sample to see how good they are, but haven't had the chance to as of yet. Your last sentence, however, is the important one. Even if one finds the defaults in an object to be acceptable, it is important to have choices. Sometimes it is important because an alternate choice suits one better, but even when not, the fact of having the choice is what is most important. Bringing the conversation back to the point at hand, however, a live buffer serves no advantage to someone who doesn't watch live TV. For that matter, it serves no advantage to someone who does watch live TV except when they are actually watching live TV. The rest of the time it only serves to reduce the available space on the system by the amount of time serviced by the buffers. Of course, on a 300+ hour DVR, one hour or so isn't much, but on a 20 hour DVR, it's pretty significant.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

reneg said:


> I'm in no rush to see a 16:9 HD interface on Tivo. Think of all the extra screen real estate to sell to advertisers. Yuk.


Geez, you're even more pessimistic than I am! I love it. 



reneg said:


> There's a very good reason why Tivo does not support any external drive. It's called containing your support costs. I support Tivo's model here as long as their solution is reasonably priced.


I suspect there are other reasons as well, perhaps even more important ones to Tivo, if not to the end user, but your point is valid. Everyone should also take note at this venture there is a difference between a supported product and an available one. One can employ other drives, it's just TiVo won't support you if you have problems with it. This is a perfectly reasonable attitude if you ask me. Indeed, historically TiVo has been extremely tolerant of hackers and tinkerers, refusing to support them, but otherwise leaving them very much alone. They could have taken a much more aggressive attitude, and some other companies have. They could easily have written code which automatically divorces an external drive if it is not supported, fore example. I don't know what Moxi's attitude might be, but in fact, it was a very helpful TiVo employee who pointed me tgoward this forum, the "other" forum, and 9th Tee Enterprises when I switched from SBC phone service to Vonage and began having problems with my Series I dial-up. He made it very clear TiVo would not be responsible for any problems I might encounter, and that any warranty on my TiVo would be voided (it was expired, anyway), but that there was a hardware hack which would allow the TiVo to use broadband internet service instead of dial-up. What's more, while it was undocumented and not officially supported, there was even code already in place in the Tivo to support the application!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> You beat me to it. I do like my TiVo, but I am not blinded by it.


Neither am I. Indeed, if you will look through my post, there are a number of points where I admit the Moxi has it all over the TiVo. As AbMagFab pointed out, however, some of the positive featuires are "nice" while a number of the negative features are critical. One must weigh not only the number of positive or negative features but also their relative importance. What's more, a number of the so called "features" don't even exist, yet. Calling a feature that doesn't exist - even if it may do so in some indeterminate future - is nonsense. The Moxi will no doubt add features as time goes by, but so will the Tivo. The only reasonable comparison is what TiVo has right now versus what Moxi has right now. What Moxi will have in the future or what TiVo only added recently is irrelevant. Finally, a number of the features which were presented as advantages were anything but.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> I want a second DVR, and would seriously consider the Moxi but the 2 show stoppers for the Moxi are:


I fail to see how when I find there to be show stoppers I am "blinded by it", but when you find them, you aren't. Neither of us are gong to be buying a Moxi any time soon, are we?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> OT, but so many of TiVo'd shows are copy protected that TiVo's MRV is less useful than it could/should be.





jeepguy_1980 said:


> I think that is a product of where you live. Because there isn't a single show on my TiVo that cannot be transferred using MRV, aside from content downloaded by the TiVo.


Well, yeah, it's a product of your CATV provider. Currently Time Warner Cable and Verizon FIOS represent the two ends of the spectrum. TWC protects everything it legally can, while FIOS protects nothing it doesn't have to. 'Look at the two companies historical affiliations as well as the lists of their respective major stockholders, and the reason is obvious. Other companies often fall somewhere in the middle. Regardless, there are ways to avoid it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bareyb said:


> Wow. I'm impressed.


I'm highly underwhelmed. 'Very few important features and quite a few unacceptable ones.


bareyb said:


> They are serious about this aren't they?


I wouldn't know. One would think anyone who is going to sink a few million dollars into a business venture would be serious, but one never knows, I suppose.


bareyb said:


> One big drawback I'm seeing, is that the software for displaying photos and home movies is "Windows" only. I know that doesn't affect everyone, but a lot of us here have Macs.


And approximately as many are running Linux. The fact the TiVo runs under Linux is a plus, although I suspect the Moxi may, as well.



bareyb said:


> Also, what do they mean it will record two digital and one "analog channel"? Aren't all channels now "Digital" due to that digital transition act thing that is going around or is that something else?


No, but most CATV systems now simulcast their analog channels in digital, as well, so an analog tuner is pretty superfluous. Within two years it's going to be useless except as a means of copying material from old media such as tapes and LVDs.



bareyb said:


> Being able to record 3 digital channels at once, is a MAJOR advantage to the Moxi.


I wouldn't consider it major.



bareyb said:


> If TiVo could do that I'd be in heaven. I have four tuners and I still hit conflicts from time to time.


From time to time, yes, and they are usually fairly easy to resolve. I don't consider "from time to time" to be "Major". Going from one to two tuners was closer to being "Major". Going from two to three or four is much less exciting and important. It would be nice to have three or four tuners in a box, but I'm not willing to pay any extra for the privilege.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Well, yeah, it's a product of your CATV provider. Currently Time Warner Cable and Verizon FIOS represent the two ends of the spectrum. TWC protects everything it legally can, while FIOS protects nothing it doesn't have to. 'Look at the two companies historical affiliations as well as the lists of their respective major stockholders, and the reason is obvious. Other companies often fall somewhere in the middle. Regardless, there are ways to avoid it.


what's most frustrating is when the same darn cable company is all over the place.

I have comast every last digital channel SD and HD (except rebroadcast locals) is protected. EVERY LAST one. But the comcast system 45 minutes south of me flags nothing. go figure that out....


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

bareyb said:


> I was just going off what he'd said. I have never used PyTiVo. But I plan to.


It's an excellent program. So is Galleon. Since you mention it, however, one extremely important advantage the Tivo has is a large, well supported base of third party applications like pyTiVo, Galleon, TyTool, TiVoWebPlus, Streambaby, tivodecode, MFS Tools, WinMFS, and a host of others. What 3rd party applications are available for the Moxi?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> what's most frustrating is when the same darn cable company is all over the place.
> 
> I have comast every last digital channel SD and HD (except rebroadcast locals) is protected. EVERY LAST one. But the comcast system 45 minutes south of me flags nothing. go figure that out....


'Give them time. I feel for you. Those of us who are tired of Dealing with giant companies to whom we are just a Database of revenue sources and Dotted "i"s have united in a Common / uniform Forum to counteract the Extraction of our resources.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> I think the TiVo adds black or grey bars (user-selectable color) to the sides of the 4x3 image and transmits that resultant 16:9 image to the 16:9 TV. Occam's razor - why would the TiVo stretch it and re-squish it?


I don't think it should be doing that, which is why I called it a "bug". Especially since it doesn't convert it exactly back to 4x3 (it's off by about 10 or so horizontal pixels).

One could argue that it was purposely done so that the TiVo user could control aspect using the TiVo remote instead of the TV remote, but I don't buy that.



clark_kent said:


> With so much programming available, I think there are plenty of customers that would like to be able to record, or time-shift more then just 2 programs at a time and telling those folks to get a "second" box is not the answer, IMHO.


The downside to having a 4 tuner box as opposed to two 2 tuners boxes is that with 2 boxes, both you and someone else in your household can watch two different shows simultaneously. With one 4 tuner box, you can record 4 programs, but can only watch one at a time.

If TiVo could get inter-box conflict resolution working, then the need for 4 tuners in one box would be greatly reduced.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

too lazy- thanks for the pointer though. I know about the "other" place. 

You think the super friends of reality tv are there too?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

morac said:


> The downside to having a 4 tuner box as opposed to two 2 tuners boxes is that with 2 boxes, both you and someone else in your household can watch two different shows simultaneously. With one 4 tuner box, you can record 4 programs, but can only watch one at a time.
> 
> If TiVo could get inter-box conflict resolution working, then the need for 4 tuners in one box would be greatly reduced.


It still wouldn't help me. I already have two TiVo's with two tuners in each. I need two TiVo's with four tuners in each. I like the idea of inter-box conflict resolution though.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> That said, there's really no advantage whatsoever to watching live TV, as opposed to pre-recorded content, unless of course it's a weather advisory and a tornado is headed one's way.


You may have conceded this point later in your post. I can't tell.

But there are a few significant advantages to live TV, and use of the live buffer.

Sports (the buffer is really nice for your own instant replays).
News / Financial news
QVC (which I never use)

And as for the tornado advisories, I find them to be not so useful on broadcast. They often are messing up a show that I'm not watching live and are no longer relevant when I do see them. Tornado advisories would be more useful if they were sent via the TiVo's ethernet connection. Yes, I know that this would require a push feature on the TiVo and that they would still have to be on the live broadcasts for the rest of the world.



lrhorer said:


> I fail to see how when I find there to be show stoppers I am "blinded by it", but when you find them, you aren't. Neither of us are gong to be buying a Moxi any time soon, are we?


Probably not. However, it has me reconsidering the purchase of a 2nd TiVo.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> I think (copy protection) is a product of where you live. Because there isn't a single show on my TiVo that cannot be transferred using MRV, aside from content downloaded by the TiVo.


Glad to hear that! In my area (Comcast NW WA) Premium Channel programs can't be MRV'd.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bareyb said:


> ...what do they mean it will record two digital and one "analog channel"? Aren't all channels now "Digital" due to that digital transition act thing that is going around or is that something else?
> 
> Being able to record 3 digital channels at once, is a MAJOR advantage to the Moxi...


At present Moxi can simultaneously record two digital channels from Moxi's internal tuners plus one analog channel from the analog dongle. Analog is of course standard-def while digital channels can be either hi-def or standard-def.

Regardless of being able to record 3 programs simultaneously Moxi provides only two running buffers at a time from any two of the three sources.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> *Moxi Advantages*
> 
> Storage expansion works with any external drive up to *1.5TB*, not just the My DVR Expander (500GB, 1TB).
> 
> ...





lrhorer said:


> In my estimation, (swappable HDDs) is one of those things that rather sounds nice, but I think it would be even more trouble than changing tapes in a VCR. I happily gave up swapping media long ago. With 2 Terabyte drives on the shelves right now, I fail to see this as a real advantage. I positively shudder at the thought of having 5 or 6 drives sitting on the shelf, each loaded with 300 or 400 videos, and trying to find which one holds the video one wants. One would have to have some unbelievably tiny handwriting to fit 400 titles on a label that will fit on a hard drive. Keeping the labels updated would be a full time nightmare. 'No thanks. I'll definitely stick with a network server.
> 
> Nothing is free, including the WinTV-HR-1950. One way or the other, the consumer pays for it. More to the point, however, is free or not, why would anyone want to record analog if one has digital sources, or even if one doesn't?
> ...
> So how does one know which programs are going to sit on the shelf with the removed hard drive?


The analog dongle is what separates Moxi's standalone DVR from all cable co. DVRs, including Moxis. Much as hi-def TiVos can manually record from standard-def external sources through their analog tuners the standalone Moxi can do the same from the analog dongle. :up::up::up:

Hi-tech oriented TiVo fanmen (and women) like you don't need or care about this capability but less gifted DVR users like me find it useful. I have the dongle connected to a standard-def digital Comcast STB to access Premium programs for casual recording without requiring a CableCARD or paying Comcast's _Additional Outlet Fee_. Comcast's STB can be pre-programmed to change channels to enable VCR recordings.

I mapped Moxi's analog ch. 3 to Comcast's VOD ch. 1 to provide 4 hour recording blocs 24/7 from Moxi's EPG. (Moxi requires that recordings be initiated from its EPG, unlike TiVo's manual recording capability. All Moxi recordings can be manually ended or extended at any time. Moxi's padding ranges from -5 mins. to +90 mins.)

Another possibile dongle connection is to a Coupon eligible OTA STB. I've ordered one which can be pre-programmed to change channels for VCR recordings.

Unlike TiVo's limitations regarding external HDDs, Moxi's system allows unlimited storage from DVR grade eSATA drives. Whether or not a user actually uses multiple drives it's nice to know that all won't be lost if a HDD fails. In its user manual Moxi claims to work with a *2TB* maximum HDD size. :up::up::up:

Although you disparage using external HDDs in favor of a media server, a perfectly reasonable solution, I may find multiple external HDDs the most appropriate storage solution, perhaps reducing significantly the number of DVDs I record. (DVDs still provide the most accessible route to sharing memorable programs.)

I have an extremely simple solution to the question you pose regarding labelling, but it's low tech and beneath your consideration. For me however it requires nothing more than the effort required to label a DVD.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

fallingwater said:


> ...
> 
> Another possibile dongle connection is to a Coupon eligible OTA STB. I've ordered one which can be pre-programmed to change channels for VCR recordings.
> 
> ...


 why bother with a CECB when the tivo (and the moxi?) already have atsc tuners?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> why bother with a CECB when the tivo (and the moxi?) already have atsc tuners?


The Moxi does not have ATSC tuners. The Hauppauge USB tuner used by Moxi to add analog support does technically support ATSC (OTA), but Moxi has no plans to support that feature.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

oh- so it's a workaround for the lack of tuners.

that's interesting- I didn't even think it was possible to buy a QAM tuner chip that didn't also do ATSC. Is it a decession not to include the 2nd physical input on the back of the box?

Is the OTA market that small that one would go through all the time and effort to build a decent DVR and then not spend the extra little bit of effort to make it OTA capable as compared to cable only?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> that's interesting- I didn't even think it was possible to buy a QAM tuner chip that didn't also do ATSC. Is it a decession not to include the 2nd physical input on the back of the box?


In the past, virtually all single-chip demodulators supported both QAM and ATSC.

Now, dual and triple demodulator products are available. These solutions incorporate 2-3 QAM demodulators on a single chip, at the expense of ATSC support. I haven't seen the inside of a Moxi, but it is entirely possible that it uses one of these chips. That would simplify the design and reduce cost.

In the past, there was little reason to forgo ATSC support. Now DVR manufacturers are faced with the choice of a dual-tuner ATSC/QAM DVR or triple/quad-tuner QAM-only DVR, both of which can be built at comparable cost.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

From engadget: upgrade ideas for Tivo, most of which I agree with (and some of which the Moxi arguably has, like the upgraded UI and access to internet streams that Tivo doesn't have via PlayOn). But given the limited hardware, I think a series4 is the only way we'll see most of them, if then.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/ten-years-of-tivo-how-far-we-havent-come


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

morac said:


> S3s were never supposed to support any external drive. That was only done because the back door to enable external drive support was found before it could be locked down.


If they were never supposed to support any external drive, why do they have an eSATA port?
Or do you mean it was for 'future expansion'?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mattack said:


> If they were never supposed to support any external drive, why do they have an eSATA port?
> Or do you mean it was for 'future expansion'?


The S3 was only supposed to support "official" TiVo drives, just like the HD and XL do. See this post for more information.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

No ATSC.... <Sigh>


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

clark_kent said:


> To me, the deal maker/breaker on any new DVR is the number of tuners in a single box.


I suspect you are in the minority. I certainly do not want 4 tuners in a box if it costs more, which it inevitably must. It's not a simple matter of just adding tuners, either. The entire system must be capable of recording more than 80 Mbps without ever skipping a beat while playing back up to 20 Mbps. Add network uploads and downloads, guide data management, and housekeeping operations to the mix and you have a significantly greater system load which must be handled real-time. It's far from trivial.



clark_kent said:


> And, to those that would say "just get another TiVo" my answer is (re-posted from another thread):


What is your answer to those who have little interest in 4 tuners and don't want to be forced to pay the premium for them?



clark_kent said:


> I believe a single M-Card is capable of supporting up to 6 simultaneous steams.


The M-Card is, yes. That doesn't mean the rest of the hardware can handle it.



clark_kent said:


> TiVo should have come out with a 4 tuner box as soon as M-Cards become readily available. Or, at least introduced an option for 4 tuners along with the TiVoHDXL for $799. Moxi could have leap frogged TiVo by coming out the gate with a 4 tuner box and gained a significant "wow" factor. Moxi missed an opportunity to clearly position itself head and shoulder above a TiVo.


You obviously consider this to be an important issue, but that does not mean the average potential DVR purchaser does. I doubt many people are all that impressed by multiple tuners. Obviously, two tuners are a huge improvement over one, but four is not that great of an improvement over 2. I do a huge amount of recording, but it is fairly rare that I get a conflict with two available tuners. When I do, it is usually easily resolved - although TiVo could definitely improve its conflict resolution utilities.



clark_kent said:


> With so much programming available, I think there are plenty of customers that would like to be able to record, or time-shift more then just 2 programs at a time and telling those folks to get a "second" box is not the answer, IMHO.


How many is "plenty"? More importantly, how is it fair to people who don't particularly care about multiple tuners to be forced to pay extra for them? Of course I casn't prove it, but I suspect the number of people who would be induced to purchase a TiVo with 4 tuners but would hold back on buying one with 2 tuners is very small. I suspect there would be more lost sales due to increased price than could be offset by the increase in sales to those fiercely wanting 4 tuners. The profit margin might be thinner still.



clark_kent said:


> I for one, can only hope to see a 4 tuner TiVo as a Series 4 in the not to distant future.


So far, I have seen nothing proposed for the next generation of Tivo which would induce me to buy one. Four tuners definitely would not, and in fact might tend to encourage me even more not to purchase one, given the inevitable increase in cost and possible decrease in reliability.



clark_kent said:


> I'm tiered of telling my wife that she can only pick 2 programs at a time. And, I'm tired of not being able to record something that I'd like to record because my wife already pick her 2 programs to record.


I have no doubt you are. The question is, how many other people are similarly weary, especially to the point of being willing to shell out a big wad of cash for a new TiVo or Moxi?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> If they were never supposed to support any external drive, why do they have an eSATA port?
> Or do you mean it was for 'future expansion'?


By "any" he meant an unrestricted group of drives. The intent was to certify some number of specific drives and allow them to be attached, not the vast majority of drive models.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

clark_kent said:


> To me, the deal maker/breaker on any new DVR is the number of tuners in a single box. The Moxi features and UI will evolve with time as will TiVo's. BUT, no new Moxi or TiVo for me unless it's got at least 4 tuners.


so since Moxi does not have 4 tuners either maybe this should go in a Thread on wanting 4 tuners


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## Tivogre (Jul 12, 2002)

In my opinion, the need for 4 tuners is mitigated if a proper implementation of Cooperative Scheduling is rolled out.

If Box A could realize it had a conflict, poll Box B (C,D,E...) for availability of a tuner at that time, set up the recording on one of THOSE boxes, and then automatically MRV it back to Box A for later viewing and delete it from the box that did the recording, there would be no conflicts, nor need for more tuners in a single box.

To ME, this is ideal. Those who want more tuners can buy as many more boxes as they want. They wouldn't even all have to be connected to TVs.

Just my opinion.

P.S. with 5 Tivo HDs in the house, I'd be in recording Nirvana if they rolled this out!


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so since Moxi does not have 4 tuners either maybe this should go in a Thread on wanting 4 tuners


Moxi has two digital tuners and can record an additional standard-def signal from its included analog dongle. The dongle can provide a viable workaround for casually recording either standard-def Premium cable channels without a CableCARD (in my area Comcast provides a standard-def digital STB at no extra cost) or, used in conjunction with a CECB, standard-def digital OTA signals. Obviously the dongle's not for hi-def purists but, as Rammitinski in a Forum far far away aptly observed, it's 'OK if you're not super picky'.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16358815#post16358815


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> Moxi has two digital tuners and can record an additional standard-def signal from its included analog dongle.


yep but that is not 4 internal tuners as is being discussed and as you point out a dongle from Tivo for a TiVo HD would just be kind of pointless.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> By "any" he meant an unrestricted group of drives. The intent was to certify some number of specific drives and allow them to be attached, not the vast majority of drive models.


Thanks.. I realized that's what he meant after seeing his response.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> too lazy- thanks for the pointer though. I know about the "other" place.


OK. It's an option. For me, it isn't an optional option. Using a simple script I've written for myself (and posted there), it takes me less than 5 minutes after every major software upgrade to maintain the system. I spend more time and effort brushing my teeth in the morning.



MichaelK said:


> You think the super friends of reality tv are there too?


You lost me.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> You may have conceded this point later in your post. I can't tell.


No, definitely not.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> But there are a few significant advantages to live TV, and use of the live buffer.
> 
> Sports (the buffer is really nice for your own instant replays).


I definitely don't concede this point. Recording the sporting event rather than watching it "live" (even if you only time-shift by 15 minutes or so) has extremely significant advantages and offers virtually no disadvantages.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> News / Financial news


I record the news. I almost never watch it live. I see no advantage to watching it "live" or indeed time-shifting it by less than 15 minutes per hour of broadcast time.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> QVC (which I never use)


OK, you found one example where watching live holds a distinct advantage, but it also happens to be one where the 30 minute buffer is almost entirely useless.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> And as for the tornado advisories, I find them to be not so useful on broadcast. They often are messing up a show that I'm not watching live and are no longer relevant when I do see them.


My point was a time-shifted warning that a tornado is on the ground and headed toward my house is useless, but otherwise time-shifting holds very large advantages and almost no disadvantages.



jeepguy_1980 said:


> Probably not. However, it has me reconsidering the purchase of a 2nd TiVo.


That's your prerogative of course, and a well considered one, IMO, regardless of your final decision. The Moxi has far too many disadvantages and far too many really critical ones to induce me to switch, or even to dissuade me from buying another TiVo if I were in the market, however. A year or so from now, if Moxi fixes some of its critical shortfalls and offers better features at a better value than the TiVo, I would be of a different opinion, but it still would not induce me to dump a TiVo in favor of the Moxi. If one of my TiVos fails, however...

...But only if the Moxi has been fixed and offers a better value. Right now it does neither.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Glad to hear that! In my area (Comcast NW WA) Premium Channel programs can't be MRV'd.


Well, there's can't and then there's can't. Here in San Antonio (TWC), no one can, either. It doesn't stop me.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> The analog dongle is what separates Moxi's standalone DVR from all cable co. DVRs, including Moxis. Much as hi-def TiVos can manually record from standard-def external sources through their analog tuners the standalone Moxi can do the same from the analog dongle.


Yeah, but it's like an unlimited charge account at a Goodwill store... that's being shut down.



fallingwater said:


> Hi-tech oriented TiVo fanmen (and women) like you don't need or care about this capability but less gifted DVR users like me find it useful.


My dislike for SD material is only half the point. In less than two years, there will no longer be any analog sources.



fallingwater said:


> I have the dongle connected to a standard-def digital Comcast STB to access Premium programs for casual recording without requiring a CableCARD or paying Comcast's _Additional Outlet Fee_. Comcast's STB can be pre-programmed to change channels to enable VCR recordings.


That's a pretty esoteric implementation. I do use my S1 TiVo to rip from LASER Video Discs and VCR Tapes, and also to provide TiVo screen-shots for fora such as this one, but I would hardly consider that an important feature for a new DVR.



fallingwater said:


> Another possibile dongle connection is to a Coupon eligible OTA STB. I've ordered one which can be pre-programmed to change channels for VCR recordings.


That's even more esoteric.



fallingwater said:


> Unlike TiVo's limitations regarding external HDDs, Moxi's system allows unlimited storage from DVR grade eSATA drives.


I addressed that. It's one of those "gee-whiz!" features that I'm pretty sure will wind up much more of a curse than a blessing.



fallingwater said:


> Whether or not a user actually uses multiple drives it's nice to know that all won't be lost if a HDD fails.


Define "all". If the primary drive on the Moxi fails, then one has lost everything. I don't know if a Moxi with a repaired primary drive can be re-married to a previously married external drive, but I am given to understand the external drive won't work (without re-marriage and a subsequent loss of all recordings) on a different Moxi. Correct me if I am wrong on this point. If the external drive fails, then all but the contents of the primary drive, whihc might not be much, will be lost. That's not that much different from the TiVo, where any recordings made on the primary drive prior to marriage with an external are not lost in the divorce.



fallingwater said:


> In its user manual Moxi claims to work with a *2TB* maximum HDD size. :up::up::up:


The largest officially supported external drive for the TiVo currently is 1T, of course. With a very simple code change to the TiVo, the THD can hypothetically support billions of terabytes of storage. The S3 can only support 2.2T, because its file system is 32 bit. Moxi's may be the same, thus the 2T limit.



fallingwater said:


> Although you disparage using external HDDs in favor of a media server, a perfectly reasonable solution, I may find multiple external HDDs the most appropriate storage solution, perhaps reducing significantly the number of DVDs I record. (DVDs still provide the most accessible route to sharing memorable programs.)


I'm sure you believe that, and you might even be able to make it work for yourself, but for any but the most extraordinary user, trying to keep track of a half dozen or more volumes, each with several hundred videos (several thousand if they were recorded from the analog dongle!!) is going to verge on the totally impossible. I have a great deal of trouble even keeping up with a couple of hundred pieces of software on CDs and DVDs, let alone thousands of videos.



fallingwater said:


> I have an extremely simple solution to the question you pose regarding labelling, but it's low tech and beneath your consideration. For me however it requires nothing more than the effort required to label a DVD.


Low tech or high tech isn't the point. Labeling a DVD only requires a few lines of text. Ten thousand programs - even allowing for the efficiency enabled by using a single name for all the episodes of a series - is still going to take several thousand lines. If the lines are not alphabetized or otherwise categorized (preferably both), then it's going to be all but impossible to find a program in the list. As soon as the user adds or deletes a video, the list needs to be edited. I don't see any way around this that doesn't involve fairly massive organizational resources on the part of the user. Heck, even creating metafiles for my videos and assigning categories is a fairly tedious undertaking, and that is a process which is much easier and less tine consuming than labeling a DVD.

In any case, I much prefer this:


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yep but (two digital tuners and an additional standard-def signal from an analog dongle) is not 4 internal tuners as is being discussed and as you point out a dongle from Tivo for a TiVo HD would just be kind of pointless.


True, but three is more than two, no? 

If a dongle such as Hauppauge's WinTV-HVR-1950 could be used with HDTiVo, utilizing the dongle's full capabilities, it would provide an additional analog and QAM/ATSC tuner on the cheap. While far from pointless, using such a dongle just isn't TiVo's style.
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1950.html


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Recording the sporting event rather than watching it "live" (even if you only time-shift by 15 minutes or so) has extremely significant advantages and offers virtually no disadvantages.


What are they?



> I record the news. I almost never watch it live. I see no advantage to watching it "live" or indeed time-shifting it by less than 15 minutes per hour of broadcast time.
> 
> ...time-shifting holds very large advantages and almost no disadvantages.


What are they?



> The Moxi has far too many disadvantages and far too many really critical ones to induce me to switch, or even to dissuade me from buying another TiVo if I were in the market, however. A year or so from now, if Moxi fixes some of its critical shortfalls and offers better features at a better value than the TiVo, I would be of a different opinion, but it still would not induce me to dump a TiVo in favor of the Moxi. If one of my TiVos fails, however...


I agree. For you Moxi would provide nothing.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

People keep mentioning the monthly fee as an issue, but a TiVo HD with Lifetime is still cheaper than the moxi, no?


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> [Sports] What are they?


Are you serious?

My TivoHD has autorecord wishlists for:

- all Washington Capitals games
- all Washington Nationals games
- all Washington Wizards playoff games 
- all Washington Redskins games
- all University of Maryland men's basketball and football
- all NCAA Final Four, Sweet 16, etc basketball
- all NFL playoff football
- NBA finals, NHL Stanley Cup
- BCS Championship, Fiesta Bowl, Sugar Bowl, Cotton Bowl, etc

These sports are automatically recorded whenever they are on and do not conflict with my higher priority series recordings.

I don't have time to watch sports during the week, so I FF through the games to see all the highlights, brief postgame commentary and interviews, etc. I watch the typical weekday game in 5-10 minutes.

On weekends, I watch more of the games, but I do so on a ~1hr time delay to skip commercials. If you start watching a NFL game at 2pm instead of 1pm, you can see every play of the game, minus commercials and the halftime show, in 2hrs instead of 3hrs. You finish watching the game within a few minutes of its end, except you don't waste an hour of your time on commercials and the halftime show.

When you have a DVR, there is no reason to ever see any commercials on programming, imo.



fallingwater said:


> [News] What are they?


News on the cable news networks is repetitive so you'll waste much of your time if you don't have access to FF. Watching news on a delay (or recorded) allows you to skip news segments you have no interest in. Watching recorded or delayed programming also allows you to avoid the now standard 18-22 minutes of commercials per hour.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> People keep mentioning the monthly fee as an issue, but a TiVo HD with Lifetime is still cheaper than the moxi, no?


If you are an existing TiVo subscriber, the 1TB TivoHD XL with lifetime is the same price ($799). If you aren't an existing customer, the 1TB TivoHD XL with lifetime runs $100-$125 more when you buy it from Amazon.com.

The standard TivoHD is significantly less expensive ($200-$250 + $330-$399 for lifetime), but it only has a 160GB drive . You have to upgrade the drive and/or add external storage.

If you read various forums, you'll find that many people still have the original price for the Series3 in their head. You'll see many refer to the TiVo as a $699-$799 box plus fees, because they haven't checked prices in a few years. On its own site, Moxi only compares its 500GB product to the 1TB TivoHD XL, and it compares its own Amazon.com pricing to the TiVo's $599 list price, rather than the $480-$520 price on Amazon.

If you exclude the option of an upgraded TivoHD, then the TiVo and Moxi are comparably priced given the differences in capacity.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> The analog dongle is what separates Moxi's standalone DVR from all cable co. DVRs, including Moxis. Much as hi-def TiVos can manually record from standard-def external sources through their analog tuners the standalone Moxi can do the same from the analog dongle.
> 
> Hi-tech oriented TiVo fanmen (and women) like you don't need or care about this capability but less gifted DVR users like me find it useful. I have the dongle connected to a standard-def digital Comcast STB to access Premium programs for casual recording without requiring a CableCARD or paying Comcast's _Additional Outlet Fee_. Comcast's STB can be pre-programmed to change channels to enable VCR recordings.
> 
> ...





lrhorer said:


> Yeah, but it's like an unlimited charge account at a Goodwill store... that's being shut down.


Interesting you state that. Have you heard of Goodwill's boutique stores, which supposedly are doing a land office business in these slow times?



> My dislike for SD material is only half the point. In less than two years, there will no longer be any analog sources.


Perhaps for you. Here, Comcast will retain Limited Basic Ch.s 2-28 as analog. Canada isn't mandating its digital switch for a couple more years although three Vancouver, BC stations already simulcast digitally. Other than two local stations all OTA TV here is from BC.



> That's a pretty esoteric implementation. I do use my S1 TiVo to rip from LASER Video Discs and VCR Tapes, and also to provide TiVo screen-shots for fora such as this one, but I would hardly consider that an important feature for a new DVR.
> 
> That's even more esoteric.


I agree, but like the old lady said when she pissed in the ocean, every li'l bit helps!



> I addressed that. It's one of those "gee-whiz!" features that I'm pretty sure will wind up much more of a curse than a blessing.


Why? Sounds like a winner to me!



> Define "all". If the primary drive on the Moxi fails, then one has lost everything. I don't know if a Moxi with a repaired primary drive can be re-married to a previously married external drive...


I don't know either. A good question which I'll ask Moxi Support!



> ...I am given to understand the external drive won't work (without re-marriage and a subsequent loss of all recordings) on a different Moxi. Correct me if I am wrong on this point.


You're correct.



> If the external drive fails, then all but the contents of the primary drive, which might not be much, will be lost. That's not that much different from the TiVo, where any recordings made on the primary drive prior to marriage with an external are not lost in the divorce.


Why do you discount 500 GB as not much? Another question I'll ask Moxi Support will be to find out if the internal drive will be utilized until it reaches what percentage of its capacity?



> The largest officially supported external drive for the TiVo currently is 1T, of course. With a very simple code change to the TiVo, the THD can hypothetically support billions of terabytes of storage.


On one external HDD or more than one external HDD?



> I'm sure you believe that, and you might even be able to make it work for yourself, but for any but the most extraordinary user, trying to keep track of a half dozen or more volumes, each with several hundred videos (several thousand if they were recorded from the analog dongle!!) is going to verge on the totally impossible. I have a great deal of trouble even keeping up with a couple of hundred pieces of software on CDs and DVDs, let alone thousands of videos.


I've got several hundred DVDs (just a guess, haven't actually counted) all labelled.



> Low tech or high tech isn't the point. Labeling a DVD only requires a few lines of text. Ten thousand programs - even allowing for the efficiency enabled by using a single name for all the episodes of a series - is still going to take several thousand lines. If the lines are not alphabetized or otherwise categorized (preferably both), then it's going to be all but impossible to find a program in the list. As soon as the user adds or deletes a video, the list needs to be edited. I don't see any way around this that doesn't involve fairly massive organizational resources on the part of the user. Heck, even creating metafiles for my videos and assigning categories is a fairly tedious undertaking, and that is a process which is much easier and less tine consuming than labeling a DVD.


I record a fraction of what I watch and archive a fraction of that. Ten thousand is off by an order of magnitude for me.



> In any case, I much prefer this:


I have no interest in watching TV using a PC. Nice photos!


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Are you serious (about questioning the advantages of watching sports or news timeshifted)?
> 
> My TivoHD has autorecord wishlists for:
> 
> ...


I do NOT enjoy watching TV efficiently! For me doing what you enjoy would be a complete waste. Moxi's relatively long 4 hour+ recording buffers work better for me than setting up autorecord wishlists.

I go back in a buffer several hours sometimes if interested in something particular or other times not at all. Commercials offer an opportunity to go to the kitchen or bathroom instead of fiddling with a remote.

In 2001 I caught the entire Sept. 11 WTC sequence by watching ReplayTV which was on 24/7. On the West Coast the attacks occured around the time I got up but I didn't find out for an hour or so afterward.

Many hardcore TiVo fans posting at TCF have no use for anything but total timeshifting, but others watch a different way. Both ways are right.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> What are they?


In no particular order:

1. Skip over commercials (or at least Fast Forward at high speed).
2. Allow the user to start the program at his liesure, not when it is convenient for the network.
3. If the user expects to be home, but is unavoidably detained, the game is still available.
4. Fast-forward through time-outs, huddles, referee conferences, etc.
5. Save for future viewing, if desired.
6. A sudden failure of the TV won't cause the game to be lost. (A rare, but not impossible occurrance)
6. A sudden, unexpected emergency lasting more than 30 minutes won't cause the game to be lost.

That's just off the top of my head. There are probably others.



fallingwater said:


> What are they?


Excepting 4 and 5, pretty much the same as above.



fallingwater said:


> I agree. For you Moxi would provide nothing.


Well, it would provide what Moxi provides, which isn't nothing. It just isn't enough, some of the discrepancies being unacceptable.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> I do NOT enjoy watching TV efficiently!


That makes no sense whatsoever. Aside from the advantages offered by time-shifting and trick-play, the experience is the same, except much better.



fallingwater said:


> For me doing what you enjoy would be a complete waste. Moxi's relatively long 4 hour+ recording buffers work better for me than setting up autorecord wishlists.


It's not about enjoying setting up Wishlists. It's about not having to waste time doing things ones self, and not being tied to someone else's schedule. This is true whether one speaks of the Tivo, Moxi, or any other DVR.



fallingwater said:


> I go back in a buffer several hours sometimes if interested in something particular or other times not at all.


It still requires that you be there, tied - albeit somewhat loosely - to your chair. More than 90% of what I watch is recorded when I am not anywhere near my house, or else when I am sleeping or busy doing something else. More than 99% of what I watch is recorded more than a day before I watch it. Time-shifting in and of itself is a massive convenience, but in addition to it allowing me to watch what I want, when I want, it allows me not to have to worry about the distinction between "live" and "recorded". I just sit down and watch what's in the NPL. I couldn't care less if it aired starting 15 minutes ago or 15 days ago.



fallingwater said:


> Commercials offer an opportunity to go to the kitchen or bathroom


So you like having the networks decide for you when you can eat and go to the bathroom? Two of the things felons in prison and soldiers in boot camp resent most is being told when to eat and when to go to the bathroom. So do I. I eat when I want, and don't wait for a commercial to relieve myself. Those aspects are easily addressed by a buffer, however. More significantly, I don't get up and eat or relieve my bladder just because there is a commercial. Watching live, I don't really have any choice other than that or watch the stupid commercials - or waste my time and break up my concentration by channel surfing.



fallingwater said:


> instead of fiddling with a remote.


Oh, now that's just silly. It's like saying you prefer to walk ten miles to work because it is too much trouble to find your car keys. What's more, it's... well, not hypocritical, as that has a much harsher and more negative connotation than I mean, but for the life of me I cannot think of a better term. You say hitting <Pause> and <Play> is too much trouble, yet you have no issues at all with endlessly changing channels, searching the guide, and by your own admission hitting FF and RW.



fallingwater said:


> In 2001 I caught the entire Sept. 11 WTC sequence by watching ReplayTV which was on 24/7. On the West Coast the attacks occured around the time I got up but I didn't find out for an hour or so afterward.


And this was a great advantage because the news has never shown another report of the incident since? I was also asleep when it happened, and one of my colleagues called me to let me know. I hung up and went back to sleep. He should have let me sleep.



fallingwater said:


> Many hardcore TiVo fans posting at TCF have no use for anything but total timeshifting, but others watch a different way. Both ways are right.


It's not about right and wrong. It's about not wasting one's time unnecessarily just because one is habit-bound, and not passing up opportunities to enrich ones life - or at least reduce the amount of tedium - because one is uncomfortable with new ways of doing things. Note nothing is ever better just because it is new, but if it is better it is better whether it is new or not. To a certain extent it is also about the fact a small amount of effort up-front can yield vast returns over time. I am not saying you are, but many Americans are lazy and allow laziness to cost them much more effort in the long run. Now, I am extremely lazy, myself, but I realize I would be an idiot if I allowed my laziness to prevent me from making a tiny effort right now (actually, months ago) which would save me very large amounts of tedium, frustration, and wasted time from here on out.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Interesting you state that. Have you heard of Goodwill's boutique stores, which supposedly are doing a land office business in these slow times?


There's one across the street from where I work, and another not far from where I live. I occasionally shop at both. I did not say, "A Goodwill store." I said, "a Goodwill store... that's shutting down." There's a difference, you know. Far more to the original point, while I enjoy shopping at the Goodwill stores, I neither want nor require unlimited credit at one. The whole point of going to a thrift store is to find things one can easily afford. Credit at such an establishment is almost useless - as analog tuners are swiftly becoming. They offer few benefits on a new device.



fallingwater said:


> Perhaps for you. Here, Comcast will retain Limited Basic Ch.s 2-28 as analog.


So they claim, I suppose (I don't know about Comcast, specifically). It is not required of them. In any case, 26 channels is mighty slim pickings.



fallingwater said:


> Canada isn't mandating its digital switch for a couple more years although three Vancouver, BC stations already simulcast digitally. Other than two local stations all OTA TV here is from BC.


Like I said, in the next two years, analog is mostly going away.



fallingwater said:


> I agree, but like the old lady said when she pissed in the ocean, every li'l bit helps!


The point is, there are plenty of analog solutions readily available in existing equipment. It just does not qualify as an important feature of a newly deployed device. It definitely isn't worth paying an extra premium.



fallingwater said:


> Why? Sounds like a winner to me!


I already said it "sounds" good. The reason I think it is far less than a winner is it will be far, far more trouble to maintain and make good use than it might seem at first glance. It's a little like owning a boat or a swimming pool. Both sound like good ideas, and both are indeed fun, but most boat and swimming pool owners find the maintenance hassles and costs to be worth less or only marginally more than the actual enjoyment they wind up deriving from them.



fallingwater said:


> Why do you discount 500 GB as not much?


'Compared to 10T or more. After all, the issue under discussion is "unlimited storage", in this context meaning several 1T or 2T external drives. What's more, I said, "might not be much", not "is not much". Depending upon circumstances, the 500G drive may not be very full. It's probably unlikley it's much more than 75% full, and 60 hours or so of HD programming is not that much.



fallingwater said:


> On one external HDD or more than one external HDD?


Well, since no currently available hard drive has more than 2T of capacity (soon to be 3T), anything more than that must be an array, yes? In the context of your question, does an array count as one HDD or more than one? Like the Moxi, the THD only has one eSATA port, if that's what you are asking. Ignoring the THD's default requirement that the attached drive be an approved device, neither the Moxi nor the TiVo really know or care whether the attached storage is derived from multiple drive units or not.



fallingwater said:


> I've got several hundred DVDs (just a guess, haven't actually counted) all labelled.


So do I, and so are mine but they (the ones containing video, not data DVDs) are all in a DVD jukebox. I have 295 of them. They're easy to count, because they are all in a spreadsheet. It's really the only practical way I have of keeping track of all the programs I have on DVD. I stopped recording video DVDs when I put together the video server. More to the point, my video DVD's contain at most 10 or 12 videos, and once written, the videos are never deleted from or added to any DVD. Writing by hand or having my printer produce a label with 10 or 12 names on it is one thing. Creating a label for a 2T hard drive with perhaps 300 - 500 HD videos or 4000 - 10,000 SD videos is another matter altogether. What's more, programs can be - and no doubt will be - freely added and deleted from the hard drive. Updating a label with 10,000 names on it presents a number of challenges, to say the least.



fallingwater said:


> I record a fraction of what I watch and archive a fraction of that. Ten thousand is off by an order of magnitude for me.


In that case, why are you talking about unlimited storage at all? Apparently it is even less useful for you than for me. It certainly offers you no advantage.



fallingwater said:


> I have no interest in watching TV using a PC.


Unless you consider the TiVo or other media device to be a PC, neither do I. Why do you bring it up?



fallingwater said:


> Nice photos!


Well, thanks, but they aren't photos. They are screen captures.


----------



## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

Put me in the "never watch live" crew. This is the reason I spent so much money on a TiVo. Yes, I think $500 was alot of money. But, I bought it so I could watch what I want when I want. 

The only think I watch live these days is the Tampa Bay Bucs. But, I am probably going to create a wish list this season. I usually pause it when the game starts and come back a little later. It is nice watching the game in half the time. 

My mom thinks I am crazy. when she come to visit and I have no ideas what number a certain channel is on my cable system. My wife seems miffed when I tell here, no, I don't know what night House is on. When I see it on the list it means there is a new one to watch. Then again, she is miffed two days after we watch House that there isn't a new one to watch yet.

I think she takes that "time shifting" think to seriously. It can't "yet" shift to the future. (Yes, I would pay extra for that feature, to watch the PowerBall pick, FTW.)

BOb


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> I do NOT enjoy watching TV efficiently! For me doing what you enjoy would be a complete waste. Moxi's relatively long 4 hour+ recording buffers work better for me than setting up autorecord wishlists.
> 
> I go back in a buffer several hours sometimes if interested in something particular or other times not at all. Commercials offer an opportunity to go to the kitchen or bathroom instead of fiddling with a remote.
> 
> ...





lrhorer said:


> That makes no sense whatsoever. Aside from the advantages offered by time-shifting and trick-play, the experience is the same, except much better.


For you.



> It's not about enjoying setting up Wishlists. It's about not having to waste time doing things ones self, and not being tied to someone else's schedule. This is true whether one speaks of the Tivo, Moxi, or any other DVR.


For you.



> It still requires that you be there, tied - albeit somewhat loosely - to your chair. More than 90% of what I watch is recorded when I am not anywhere near my house, or else when I am sleeping or busy doing something else. More than 99% of what I watch is recorded more than a day before I watch it. Time-shifting in and of itself is a massive convenience, but in addition to it allowing me to watch what I want, when I want, it allows me not to have to worry about the distinction between "live" and "recorded". I just sit down and watch what's in the NPL. I couldn't care less if it aired starting 15 minutes ago or 15 days ago.




Your system obviously works well for you. It describes a 'Canned World' which today's TiVo only nibbles at the edge of. Such a system may become reality within, say, 50 years (or less), wherein all the world's video content would be available on demand in realtime from a relatively small number of huge strategically located secure server farms.



> So you like having the networks decide for you when you can eat and go to the bathroom? Two of the things felons in prison and soldiers in boot camp resent most is being told when to eat and when to go to the bathroom. So do I. I eat when I want, and don't wait for a commercial to relieve myself. Those aspects are easily addressed by a buffer, however.




The 'opportunity' offers a natural break in program content. It's not a command.

Do you ever watch TV programs with others? If so, what do you do then?



> More significantly, I don't get up and eat or relieve my bladder just because there is a commercial.


Neither do I.



> Watching live, I don't really have any choice other than that or watch the stupid commercials - or waste my time and break up my concentration by channel surfing.


I (almost) never channel search.



> Oh, now that's just silly. It's like saying you prefer to walk ten miles to work because it is too much trouble to find your car keys. What's more, it's... well, not hypocritical, as that has a much harsher and more negative connotation than I mean, but for the life of me I cannot think of a better term. You say hitting <Pause> and <Play> is too much trouble, yet you have no issues at all with endlessly changing channels, searching the guide, and by your own admission hitting FF and RW.


When I was a kid high school students had to live 2.5 miles from school to take the bus. So I had to walk two+ miles carrying a full load of books uphill both ways. (Oh the humanity!)

More seriously, years ago I worked at a remote desert location (Charlie Manson country), sometimes during the day, sometimes at night. The housing camp was over two miles from the worksite. Everyone else drove but I enjoyed walking that four+ miles each day as much as anything in this life.

During the summer it typically was 70 and completely still at midnight, with an absolutely clear sky. It was possible to read a newspaper by moonlight. The Milky Way provided enough light on new moon nights so a flashlight wasn't necessary to see the road. (I carried one but never encountered a mountain lion or coyote although coyotes howled routinely.) (I believe it was) on a Sunday afternoon I saw the last train ever to head south from Lone Pine when they removed the remaining freight cars before pulling up the tracks.)

But I digress. I enjoy searching an EPG, never endlessly change channels, and use FF/RW when appropriate (for me).



> And (seeing 911) was a great advantage because the news has never shown another report of the incident since? I was also asleep when it happened, and one of my colleagues called me to let me know. I hung up and went back to sleep. He should have let me sleep.




Thanks to that buffer I saw history as it unfolded. You chose to sleep through it. It's about what's right or wrong for each of us.



> It's not about right and wrong. It's about not wasting one's time unnecessarily just because one is habit-bound, and not passing up opportunities to enrich ones life - or at least reduce the amount of tedium - because one is uncomfortable with new ways of doing things. Note nothing is ever better just because it is new, but if it is better it is better whether it is new or not. To a certain extent it is also about the fact a small amount of effort up-front can yield vast returns over time. I am not saying you are, but many Americans are lazy and allow laziness to cost them much more effort in the long run. Now, I am extremely lazy, myself, but I realize I would be an idiot if I allowed my laziness to prevent me from making a tiny effort right now (actually, months ago) which would save me very large amounts of tedium, frustration, and wasted time from here on out.


It's about what's right or wrong for each individual person. Hurry up, waste time! Or not.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> But I digress. I enjoy searching an EPG, never endlessly change channels, and use FF/RW when appropriate (for me).


You have series recordings for many of your favorite episodic series, correct? Yet you do not do the same thing for news, sports, and other programs? I guess I just don't see the logic in that.

Why do you value the ability to timeshift for some of your programs and not others? If you are going to watch news and sports live with commercials, then why not watch your episodic series the same way?

I totally understand browsing liveTV if you don't have any programs on your DVR to watch and/or want to find new shows to record. But when you already have a preference for a program (be it news, a sporting event, or whatever), I just don't see a logical reason for not recording it.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> Interesting you state that. Have you heard of Goodwill's boutique stores, which supposedly are doing a land office business in these slow times?
> 
> Perhaps for you. Here, Comcast will retain Limited Basic Ch.s 2-28 as analog. Canada isn't mandating its digital switch for a couple more years although three Vancouver, BC stations already simulcast digitally. Other than two local stations all OTA TV here is from BC.
> 
> ...





lrhorer said:


> There's one across the street from where I work, and another not far from where I live. I occasionally shop at both. I did not say, "A Goodwill store." I said, "a Goodwill store... that's shutting down." There's a difference, you know. Far more to the original point, while I enjoy shopping at the Goodwill stores, I neither want nor require unlimited credit at one. The whole point of going to a thrift store is to find things one can easily afford. Credit at such an establishment is almost useless - as analog tuners are swiftly becoming. They offer few benefits on a new device.


True, with the exceptions noted.



> So they claim, I suppose (I don't know about Comcast, specifically). It is not required of them. In any case, 26 channels is mighty slim pickings.


More than 50% of the programs I watch are available from Limited Basic analog service. I don't pay our cable bill but if I did Limited Basic and HBO would fill the bill!



> Like I said, in the next two years, analog is mostly going away.
> 
> The point is, there are plenty of analog solutions readily available in existing equipment. It just does not qualify as an important feature of a newly deployed device. It definitely isn't worth paying an extra premium.




Moxi provides its dongle and TiVo provides its NTSC tuners at no extra charge. The primary benefit to me of an analog input is the capability to record from external sources. When DVRs no longer record from external sources I won't buy them. I've got many DVRs now; more than half not being used. I've spent $1800 ($2100?) on TiVo Service. (Video recording is a hobby I enjoy more than watching TV! )



> I already said it "sounds" good. The reason I think it is far less than a winner is it will be far, far more trouble to maintain and make good use than it might seem at first glance. It's a little like owning a boat or a swimming pool. Both sound like good ideas, and both are indeed fun, but most boat and swimming pool owners find the maintenance hassles and costs to be worth less or only marginally more than the actual enjoyment they wind up deriving from them.


TiVo's present sytem for adding an external HDD is crippled regardless of whether a user wishes to exchange HDDs. I'd install a larger (preconfigured) internal HDD rather than plug-in a TiVo approved external HDD. However I'd plug-in an external HDD to Moxi.



> 'Compared to 10T or more. After all, the issue under discussion is "unlimited storage", in this context meaning several 1T or 2T external drives. What's more, I said, "might not be much", not "is not much". Depending upon circumstances, the 500G drive may not be very full. It's probably unlikley it's much more than 75% full, and 60 hours or so of HD programming is not that much.
> 
> Well, since no currently available hard drive has more than 2T of capacity (soon to be 3T), anything more than that must be an array, yes? In the context of your question, does an array count as one HDD or more than one? Like the Moxi, the THD only has one eSATA port, if that's what you are asking. Ignoring the THD's default requirement that the attached drive be an approved device, neither the Moxi nor the TiVo really know or care whether the attached storage is derived from multiple drive units or not.


An array is a bunch, no? If one fails do the others still work fine? Also, why wouldn't an internal HDD be close to full before files are sent to external HDDs?



> So do I, and so are mine but they (the ones containing video, not data DVDs) are all in a DVD jukebox. I have 295 of them. They're easy to count, because they are all in a spreadsheet. It's really the only practical way I have of keeping track of all the programs I have on DVD. I stopped recording video DVDs when I put together the video server. More to the point, my video DVD's contain at most 10 or 12 videos, and once written, the videos are never deleted from or added to any DVD. Writing by hand or having my printer produce a label with 10 or 12 names on it is one thing. Creating a label for a 2T hard drive with perhaps 300 - 500 HD videos or 4000 - 10,000 SD videos is another matter altogether. What's more, programs can be - and no doubt will be - freely added and deleted from the hard drive. Updating a label with 10,000 names on it presents a number of challenges, to say the least.


Another area where our preferences diverge. The last thing I want is a jukebox for DVDs.

I use finalized DVD±Rs so no changes are possible. Titles can be deleted from a HDD, but of course don't have to be; whatever is most appropriate.



> In that case, why are you talking about unlimited storage at all? Apparently it is even less useful for you than for me. It certainly offers you no advantage.


Multiple exchangeable HDDs provide unlimited storage regardless of how much of it is used.



> Unless you consider the TiVo or other media device to be a PC, neither do I. Why do you bring it up?


The images you presented were from a TiVo screen? If so what does the PC in the header mean? What is a RAID server? That's why I brought it up.



> Well, thanks, but they aren't photos. They are screen captures.


Nice images! My error.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> You have series recordings for many of your favorite episodic series, correct? Yet you do not do the same thing for news, sports, and other programs? I guess I just don't see the logic in that.
> 
> Why do you value the ability to timeshift for some of your programs and not others? If you are going to watch news and sports live with commercials, then why not watch your episodic series the same way?
> 
> I totally understand browsing liveTV if you don't have any programs on your DVR to watch and/or want to find new shows to record. But when you already have a preference for a program (be it news, a sporting event, or whatever), I just don't see a logical reason for not recording it.


Sports and news are dynamic, constantly changing. Professional sports have always been, and now a majority of news shows on outlets like *Fox*, *MSNBC*, and *CNN* have become 'infotainment' of the moment and deserve to be casually watched live with a buffer (or ignored).

I could schedule _Meet the Press_, _Face the Nation_, and _This Week_ but watching (or listening to) them live is a Sunday pleasure for me. (What do you think I've been doing while writing these TCF posts?) BTW, I don't need hi-def for these talking head shows, even when a interviewee is worth listening to. But a few days from now something else will be news. 

BTW, I browse an EPG, not the channels themselves.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> For you.


That's utter nonsense. The data on the hard drive is precisely the same, no matter when it is viewed. Injecting a spurious subjective element is just foolishness. A prepared meal can go stale and must be eaten in fairly short order, or it diminishes in quality. Video content doesn't degrade with age.



fallingwater said:


> For you.


Again, there's no subjective element, here, in the context of my statement. Outside that context may be another matter, but automation by definition allows the beneficiary to free himself of duties with which he would otherwise be bound.



fallingwater said:


> Your system obviously works well for you. It describes a 'Canned World' which today's TiVo only nibbles at the edge of.


That's the point. A person sitting at a screen, laboriously sifting through literally tens of thousands of programs in the program schedule is "nibbling at the edge" of the available content. The Tivo can and does gulp the entire mass down whole, spitting out the guts, bones, and gristle, leaving only prime cuts for the viewer to peruse at his own liesure.



fallingwater said:


> Such a system may become reality within, say, 50 years (or less)


Nonsense! I am describing in exact detail the system I possess, right now. The TiVos are the heart of that system.



fallingwater said:


> wherein all the world's video content would be available on demand in realtime from a relatively small number of huge strategically located secure server farms.


What in heck are you tallking about? Most of the world's video content is pure garbage. I neither want nor require access to the bulk of it. Fortunately, the TiVo can filter out most of the junk, so I only have to select from a pile of much higher quality and lower volume.



fallingwater said:


> The 'opportunity' offers a natural break in program content. It's not a command.


In effect, yes, it is. More to the point, ideally there should be zero breaks - absolutely none - in the content.



fallingwater said:


> Do you ever watch TV programs with others?


Of course I do. Frequently.



fallingwater said:


> If so, what do you do then?


Well, it depends on who it is. If it's family, we decide whose turn it is to pick the programs for the evening. If it is friends, they get to choose. I have a list of my DVDs on a spreadsheet, and the TiVo has its programs sorted as you see. All totaled, there are several thousand programs from which to choose, so we choose one. The list is growing by typically 5 or 6 programs per day.



fallingwater said:


> More seriously, years ago I worked at a remote desert location (Charlie Manson country), sometimes during the day, sometimes at night. The housing camp was over two miles from the worksite. Everyone else drove but I enjoyed walking that four+ miles each day as much as anything in this life.


That's a completely different thing. You said you didn't want to "fiddle with the remote", not that you enjoyed going to the bathroom. Taking a walk because one enjoys the walk is a very different matter from taking a walk because one is too lazy to look for one's keys.



fallingwater said:


> But I digress. I enjoy searching an EPG


You've got to be kidding me, or else IMO you need to start watching some more interesting programs. Searching the EPG is the recreational viewing equivalent of wading chest deep in raw sewage.



fallingwater said:


> Thanks to that buffer I saw history as it unfolded.


You say that as if it offered you some advantage. It didn't. It was just as important 4 hours, 4 days, or 4 years later as it was that day. Indeed, in many aspects more so, because one of the fundamental truths about history is the importance of any event can only be accurately gauged against the ruler of time. What seems important in the moment often turns out to be relatively trivial, and what seems insignificant often gains in importance over time.



fallingwater said:


> It's about what's right or wrong for each individual person. Hurry up, waste time! Or not.


No, it's about not allowing personal biases and familiar habits to prevent one from embracing new and differnt ways of doing things that will in turn help one not to waste the most valuable peronal resource any of us possess: time.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Sports and news are dynamic, constantly changing.


No, they aren't. Once a game is played, it is played. What happens two years from now won't change who won Superbowl VI. Although personally I would never watch (for entertainment) something which cannot be enjoyed again, and again, and again, I can marginally understand how one might wish to watch something - such as a sports program - they would not care to watch a second time, but unless you are so bored with what you are watching that you have to inject a purely inconsequential time element to give it any interest at all, if the viewer has not seen the program, then it is just as good (or bad) 30 years from now as today, and delaying watching a game (or whatever) by a few hours or days in no way changes it.



fallingwater said:


> I could schedule _Meet the Press_, _Face the Nation_, and _This Week_ but watching (or listening to) them live is a Sunday pleasure for me.


No offense intended, but someone has sold you a bill of goods, and you've bought it hook, line and sinker. Of course, you are free to buy whatever bill of goods you like, but in the mean time you might consider what Ralph Waldo Emmerson had to say about consistency.



fallingwater said:


> (What do you think I've been doing while writing these TCF posts?)


'Clearly watching something too boring to capture your attention. For myself, I not only have much better things to do but also have access to far too great a wealth of highly captivating material - courtesy of my TiVos - to justify ever watching anything which did not engross me utterly and completely.



fallingwater said:


> BTW, I don't need hi-def for these talking head shows, even when a interviewee is worth listening to.


True enough, but in this vein the TV can be used for much more than just entertainment, and I would perhaps make the distinction between entertainment TV and documenatry TV, but the main point is, the TiVo can and will filter both types of programing for me to eliminate less interesting examples of both.



fallingwater said:


> But a few days from now something else will be news.


Again, that's nonsense. Despite its name, news is not news because it is new. It is news because it is relevant. I of course watched the videos of 9/11, but I also watched an analysis four years later of exactly how and why the towers fell. The latter are far more important, because they may potentially save lives. It's too late for the victims of 9/11.



fallingwater said:


> BTW, I browse an EPG, not the channels themselves.


I browse neither as both are a complete waste of time, and the TiVo is far beter at selecting shows than I could ever be, given the relative importance of my time and the TiVo's.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Moxi provides its dongle and TiVo provides its NTSC tuners at no extra charge.


That depends on what you mean by "no extra charge". They load the cost of the devices with the cost of delivering the extra tuners. I would much rather have a less expensive device and give up the tuners, which i never use.



fallingwater said:


> TiVo's present sytem for adding an external HDD is crippled regardless of whether a user wishes to exchange HDDs. I'd install a larger (preconfigured) internal HDD rather than plug-in a TiVo approved external HDD. However I'd plug-in an external HDD to Moxi.


By definition, the term "crippled" denotes something with a functional impairment. The Tivo's system is not functionally impaired in this respect. It is a stretch beyond reason to suggest a system is crippled merely because it cannot be used in an impractical way. There are other limitations of the TiVo's storage system of which I am less than impressed, but this aspect is not really a matter for major criticism.



fallingwater said:


> An array is a bunch, no? If one fails do the others still work fine?


It depends on the array. (The other drives being functional does not necessarily mean the array is intact.) Mirrored arrays and RAID 5 or RAID 6 arrays can survive the loss of some specific number of drives without data loss. Beyond that, a drive failure results in the loss of all data. RAID 0 arrays, linear arrays, and JBOD volumes will lose all data if one disk in the array is lost. An LVM array may be able to retain the information on the good drives losing only the information on the bad drive if the LVM array is not striped. An unstriped LVM array has terrible performance, though.



fallingwater said:


> Also, why wouldn't an internal HDD be close to full before files are sent to external HDDs?


In genral there are many reasons. Striped volumes enjoy greater efficiency, greater throughput, lower latency, less CPU overhead, and less loss of space than linear arrays, RAID 5 /6 arrays, or JBOD volumes.



fallingwater said:


> Another area where our preferences diverge. The last thing I want is a jukebox for DVDs.


So now you're telling me you not only enjoy squinting endlessly at unending lists of names of uninteresting programs, but you also enjoy trying to find a specific DVD in a big stack of DVDs? That's not to mention the fingerprints and scratches inevitably suffered by DVDs which are handled by hand. Of course I must admit to being quite lazy, but I also enjoy being able to change the DVD from my recliner.



fallingwater said:


> I use finalized DVD±Rs so no changes are possible.


That's the whole point. Once a DVD is finalized, it can be labeled, and the contents will never change. Thus, the label never needs to changed either.



fallingwater said:


> Titles can be deleted from a HDD, but of course don't have to be; whatever is most appropriate.


Again, that's the whole point. Whenever a change does occur, for whatever reason, the label must be updated, and we are talking about a label that we may infer holds a couple of hundred titles, at least. We may infer this, because if the label does not specify several hundred titles, then the disk does not have several hundred titles. If the disk does not have several hundred programs, then it is not full, and if it is not full, then there is no reason to remove it and attach another, now is there?



fallingwater said:


> Multiple exchangeable HDDs provide unlimited storage regardless of how much of it is used.


Again, no offense, but that has got to be one of the most illogical, most internally inconsistent statements I have ever seen. Assuming you simply had a momentary lapse of translational coherence between what you were thinking and what you typed, the fact is keeping track of multiple swappable hard drives will very quickly and pretty much inevitably turn into a nightmare.



fallingwater said:


> The images you presented were from a TiVo screen?


Yes. You don't recognize the TiVo NPL?



fallingwater said:


> If so what does the PC in the header mean?


It means the programs are on an external PC, in this case a Linux based RAID Server running pyTivo. I think the TiVo identifies all shares from HMO based servers (including TiVo Desktop) with the "PC:" prefix. It certainly does for both Galleon and pyTivo.



fallingwater said:


> What is a RAID server?


Redundant Array of Independent Disks. A server is a machine whihc offers its resources to other machines. A file server makes its hard drive system available for other computers.



fallingwater said:


> Nice images!


Thanks. The TiVos did all the work, other than posting the images to my website.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> Put me in the "never watch live" crew. This is the reason I spent so much money on a TiVo. Yes, I think $500 was alot of money. But, I bought it so I could watch what I want when I want.


Exactly. Of course, there are a good many other extremely important features offered by the TiVo, and another individual might consider some other aspect to be even more important, but disregarding the feature is effectively gutting the DVR. It's like buying a Hummer and only driving it to the grocery store and back.



pilotbob said:


> It is nice watching the game in half the time.


It's more than just nice. First of all, it makes the experience far, far more intense. Secondly, if one watches 2 games a week and saves on average 30 minutes per game - a very conservative estimate - in the course of a year, that's 52 hours not wasted watching commercials, time-outs, and other distractions. In 40 years of watching, that's nearly three months of one's life wasted watching things one doesn't want to watch just during sporting events alone. I don't know about anyone else, but the last thing I want to do is effectively shorten my life by 3 months.



pilotbob said:


> My mom thinks I am crazy. when she come to visit and I have no ideas what number a certain channel is on my cable system. My wife seems miffed when I tell here, no, I don't know what night House is on. When I see it on the list it means there is a new one to watch.


Yet keeping track of such trivia requires a very significant amount of personal resources, to no advantageous end whatsoever. Finding one such bit of information may indeed only take 5 minutes or less, but habitually following a dozen or more programs and periodically searching for others causes it to add up in an astounding hurry.



pilotbob said:


> Then again, she is miffed two days after we watch House that there isn't a new one to watch yet.


Yeah, I don't think the engineers at TiVo have come up with anything to help her, there.



pilotbob said:


> I think she takes that "time shifting" think to seriously.


Well, if you're going to bother to wish for something, make it a lulu, I suppose.



pilotbob said:


> It can't "yet" shift to the future.


I just want my Thumbs-down button to be attached via highg voltage link to the 'nads of the moron who created any show when I give it three thumbs down. There would be some mighty sore studio execs hobbling around.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

To intelligently discuss in this TCF venue the issues you advocate, a different format is necessary. Interposing your reactions (almost) sentence by sentence when you disagree may keep you amused (focused?) but makes for an unintelligible dialogue when others read the exchange. (IOW, coherent replies to your posts become almost unintelligble when read in the context that TCF provides.)

I'd suggest one of two ways to keep this exchange coherent; either short posts which interpolate, or longer posts which don't.

If we can't agree on a format change, I'll just choose from your posts individual paragraphs that I find interesting, that, IMHO, deserve a response and focus on them one at a time. I won't reply chronologically but rather will select particular issues in the order that I'm interested in them. Anything else would be an almost complete waste of time, both mine and other forum members, IMHO. YMMV!



fallingwater said:


> For you.
> 
> For you.
> 
> ...





lrhorer said:


> That's utter nonsense. The data on the hard drive is precisely the same, no matter when it is viewed. Injecting a spurious subjective element is just foolishness. A prepared meal can go stale and must be eaten in fairly short order, or it diminishes in quality. Video content doesn't degrade with age.
> 
> Again, there's no subjective element, here, in the context of my statement. Outside that context may be another matter, but automation by definition allows the beneficiary to free himself of duties with which he would otherwise be bound.
> 
> ...





fallingwater said:


> ]Sports and news are dynamic, constantly changing. Professional sports have always been, and now a majority of news shows on outlets like *Fox*, *MSNBC*, and *CNN* have become 'infotainment' of the moment and deserve to be casually watched live with a buffer (or ignored).
> 
> I could schedule _Meet the Press_, _Face the Nation_, and _This Week_ but watching (or listening to) them live is a Sunday pleasure for me. (What do you think I've been doing while writing these TCF posts?) BTW, I don't need hi-def for these talking head shows, even when a interviewee is worth listening to. But a few days from now something else will be news.
> 
> BTW, I browse an EPG, not the channels themselves.





lrhorer said:


> fallingwater said:
> 
> 
> > Sports and news are dynamic, constantly changing.
> ...





lrhorer said:


> That depends on what you mean by "no extra charge". They load the cost of the devices with the cost of delivering the extra tuners. I would much rather have a less expensive device and give up the tuners, which i never use.
> 
> By definition, the term "crippled" denotes something with a functional impairment. The Tivo's system is not functionally impaired in this respect. It is a stretch beyond reason to suggest a system is crippled merely because it cannot be used in an impractical way. There are other limitations of the TiVo's storage system of which I am less than impressed, but this aspect is not really a matter for major criticism.
> 
> ...


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> ...it's about not allowing personal biases and familiar habits to prevent one from embracing new and differnt ways of doing things that will in turn help one not to waste the most valuable peronal resource any of us possess: time.


Which apparently doesn't bother you at TCF. 

..Cuckoo..!


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> fallingwater:
> Multiple exchangeable HDDs provide unlimited storage regardless of how much of it is used.
> 
> *Again, no offense, but that has got to be one of the most illogical, most internally inconsistent statements I have ever seen. Assuming you simply had a momentary lapse of translational coherence between what you were thinking and what you typed, the fact is keeping track of multiple swappable hard drives will very quickly and pretty much inevitably turn into a nightmare.*


For you. But the statement is true.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> ...the programs are on an external PC, in this case a Linux based RAID Server running pyTivo. I think the TiVo identifies all shares from HMO based servers (including TiVo Desktop) with the "PC:" prefix. It certainly does for both Galleon and pyTivo.


Which is exactly what I don't want to mix with TV viewing, as stated here: 'I have no interest in watching TV using a PC.'
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7247912#post7247912


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> Fallingwater: Also, why wouldn't an internal HDD be close to full before files are sent to external HDDs?
> 
> In genral there are many reasons. Striped volumes enjoy greater efficiency, greater throughput, lower latency, less CPU overhead, and less loss of space than linear arrays, RAID 5 /6 arrays, or JBOD volumes.


With regard to Moxi; 'Another question I'll ask Moxi Support will be to find out if the internal drive will be utilized until it reaches what percentage of its capacity?'
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7247912#post7247912

And yes, the quoted sentence's syntax is poor!


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> ...delaying watching a game (or whatever) by a few hours or days in no way changes it.


Doesn't change the game, but it sure changes my appreciation of it. Ask Schrödinger's cat. I don't watch sports events delayed unless researching a play or crash or whatever. YMMV.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Exactly. Of course, there are a good many other extremely important features offered by the TiVo, and another individual might consider some other aspect to be even more important, but disregarding the feature is effectively gutting the DVR. It's like buying a Hummer and only driving it to the grocery store and back.


Kind of like buying a DVR and then never using trick play on Live TV.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> Which is exactly what I don't want to mix with TV viewing, as stated here: 'I have no interest in watching TV using a PC.'
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7247912#post7247912


I think you are still not getting this functionality. I use it as well.

basically you setup files on a PC. For me I rip DVDs to a 1 TB drive in my PC organized by folders I create.
Install PyTiVo and point it to those files/folders on the PC.

then in now playing menu on the TiVo, at the bottom, you will see the the top most folder and can drill down into it to see a list of folders and any video files in those folders.
Select one and it copies top the TiVo and you watch it like any other show, even while still copying over.

You still use the The TiVo for playback and view the movie with the TV. You can say you want no PC involved at all and that is the individual's choice but you lose out on functionality that really adds to the TiVo experience. My family, including my 10 year old daughter, find this feature via the TiVo interface very easy to use and it works for any TiVo at any TV in the house.

We await Moxi and DLNA to see how they will implement such a feature but currently TiVo has the plus on this one.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think you are still not getting this functionality. I use it as well.
> 
> basically you setup files on a PC. For me I rip DVDs to a 1 TB drive in my PC organized by folders I create.
> Install PyTiVo and point it to those files/folders on the PC.
> ...


*Youtube:* Viewing Computer videos on TiVo (HD, 9min)

I didn't demonstrate DVD playback above, but it's no different.



ZeoTiVo said:


> We await Moxi and DLNA to see how they will implement such a feature but currently TiVo has the plus on this one.


Moxi already supports DLNA, although I have yet to see any reports on how well it works or what formats are natively supported.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think you are still not getting this functionality. I use it as well.
> 
> basically you setup files on a PC. For me I rip DVDs to a 1 TB drive in my PC organized by folders I create.
> Install PyTiVo and point it to those files/folders on the PC.
> ...


PyTiVo does offer 'the plus', thanks to its developer: http://pytivo.armooo.net/

For you and perhaps the majority of posters here at TCF it's a significant and valuable feature. For me it's not. The question might best be paraphrased; 'How will it play in Peoria'; i.e. how much does it influence prospective TiVo buyers? In that regard, why didn't TiVo develop an improved TiVo Desktop themselves instead of letting a third party do so? Perhaps in TiVo's opinion it wouldn't develop enough revenue to offset its cost?

Y'know despite his condescendingly pompous posting style L R Horer occasionally states something worth taking note of such as; 'One of the most important features of the TiVo is the ability to set a wishlist.' 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7231208#post7231208

Wishlists are another TiVo feature which I never use, but Rocky(?) Horer's (sorry, couldn't resist!) point is well taken; TiVo's Wishlists are a very powerful feature if a viewer doesn't care when a program becomes available. In comparison Moxi only offers what's available from EPG data at the time a search is performed.

Personally, when I seek a program that's currently not available I use Google and other sources (such as IMDB or allmovie) to research if it's available by other means or media than from videos or downloads potentially available from TiVo. Amazing what I've found that way, and how quickly I was in possession of it! Watching TV 'my way' means just that, more akin to George Gobel than Joseph Goebbels.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Awhile ago L R Horer and I got 'into it' regarding storage. A short portion of the exchange is quoted below. L R Horer is quite properly hi-tech; I'm not. His RAID server technique is a fine solution for him and other high-tech TiVo fans.

At the time I was enamored by the low-tech concept of using multiple interchangeable HDDs for storage instead of recording to DVDs. However, I've just come across what appears to be a credible article about HDD storage which states that:

_'Magnetic signals recorded on a hard disk are designed to be refreshed periodically. If your hard disks stay on, this happens automatically. However, if you store your projects to a removable hard drive, then store that hard drive on a shelf, unattached to a computer, those magnetic signals will fade over time... essentially, evaporating.'_

The info presented may be a worst case scenario but the concept of long term storage on stashed away HDDs no longer appears viable without fiddling with them:

http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_hard_disk_warning.html
http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_refreshing_hard_disk_storage.html

In truth there are opposing views regarding DVD longevity:
http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_compatibility.htm
_'Preliminary results with a few samples show wide variation between different products, with some surviving over 2500 hours, and others failing after 500 to 1000 hours.'_

http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/contents.html
_'Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more.'_

My low-tech long-term storage will continue to use DVDs.

TiVo's system for adding external storage may be less elegant than Moxi's, but since interchangeable HDD's don't appear to offer a viable long-term storage solution, in reality TiVo's external HDD system is at least adequate.

---


fallingwater said:


> ...Unlike TiVo's limitations regarding external HDDs, Moxi's system allows unlimited storage from DVR grade eSATA drives. Whether or not a user actually uses multiple drives it's nice to know that all won't be lost if a HDD fails. In its user manual Moxi claims to work with a *2TB* maximum HDD size. :up::up::up:
> 
> Although you disparage using external HDDs in favor of a media server, a perfectly reasonable solution, I may find multiple external HDDs the most appropriate storage solution, perhaps reducing significantly the number of DVDs I record. (DVDs still provide the most accessible route to sharing memorable programs.)
> 
> I have an extremely simple solution to the question you pose regarding labelling, but it's low tech and beneath your consideration. For me however it requires nothing more than the effort required to label a DVD.





lrhorer said:


> ...(Multiple interchangeable HDDs is) one of those "gee-whiz!" features that I'm pretty sure will wind up much more of a curse than a blessing.
> 
> ...for any but the most extraordinary user, trying to keep track of a half dozen or more volumes, each with several hundred videos (several thousand if they were recorded from the analog dongle!!) is going to verge on the totally impossible. I have a great deal of trouble even keeping up with a couple of hundred pieces of software on CDs and DVDs, let alone thousands of videos...





lrhorer said:


> ...The reason I think (multiple interchangeable HDDs) is far less than a winner is it will be far, far more trouble to maintain and make good use than it might seem at first glance...
> 
> ...the issue under discussion is "unlimited storage", in this context meaning several 1T or 2T external drives...
> 
> (My DVDs)...are all in a DVD jukebox. I have 295 of them. They're easy to count, because they are all in a spreadsheet. It's really the only practical way I have of keeping track of all the programs I have on DVD. I stopped recording video DVDs when I put together the video server. More to the point, my video DVD's contain at most 10 or 12 videos, and once written, the videos are never deleted from or added to any DVD. Writing by hand or having my printer produce a label with 10 or 12 names on it is one thing. Creating a label for a 2T hard drive with perhaps 300 - 500 HD videos or 4000 - 10,000 SD videos is another matter altogether. What's more, programs can be - and no doubt will be - freely added and deleted from the hard drive. Updating a label with 10,000 names on it presents a number of challenges, to say the least.





lrhorer said:


> ...Mirrored arrays and RAID 5 or RAID 6 arrays can survive the loss of some specific number of drives without data loss. Beyond that, a drive failure results in the loss of all data. RAID 0 arrays, linear arrays, and JBOD volumes will lose all data if one disk in the array is lost. An LVM array may be able to retain the information on the good drives losing only the information on the bad drive if the LVM array is not striped. An unstriped LVM array has terrible performance, though.
> 
> ...Striped volumes enjoy greater efficiency, greater throughput, lower latency, less CPU overhead, and less loss of space than linear arrays, RAID 5 /6 arrays, or JBOD volumes.
> 
> ...you not only enjoy squinting endlessly at unending lists of names of uninteresting programs, but you also enjoy trying to find a specific DVD in a big stack of DVDs? That's not to mention the fingerprints and scratches inevitably suffered by DVDs which are handled by hand. Of course I must admit to being quite lazy, but I also enjoy being able to change the DVD from my recliner.





fallingwater said:


> Multiple exchangeable HDDs provide unlimited storage regardless of how much of it is used.





lrhorer said:


> *...no offense, but that has got to be one of the most illogical, most internally inconsistent statements I have ever seen. Assuming you simply had a momentary lapse of translational coherence between what you were thinking and what you typed, the fact is keeping track of multiple swappable hard drives will very quickly and pretty much inevitably turn into a nightmare.*




(L R certainly knows how to be scathing, eh!)



> ...the programs are on an external PC, in this case a Linux based RAID Server running pyTivo. I think the TiVo identifies all shares from HMO based servers (including TiVo Desktop) with the "PC:" prefix. It certainly does for both Galleon and pyTivo.
> 
> Redundant Array of Independent Disks. A server is a machine whihc offers its resources to other machines. A file server makes its hard drive system available for other computers.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> _'Magnetic signals recorded on a hard disk are designed to be refreshed periodically. If your hard disks stay on, this happens automatically. However, if you store your projects to a removable hard drive, then store that hard drive on a shelf, unattached to a computer, those magnetic signals will fade over time... essentially, evaporating.'_
> 
> The info presented may be a worst case scenario but the concept of long term storage on stashed away HDDs no longer appears viable without fiddling with them:


I would question this. Yes, drives will degrade over time, but not in a less than 2 years. I've had floppy discs and zip drives (which are lot more suscetible to this), last over 20 years without being used.

Personally I have external hard drives a few years old which still work fine. I do hook them to a computer every now and then, but I don't do a full disk scan.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

fallingwater said:


> http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/contents.html
> _'Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more.'_


Frankly, I think those numbers are pipe dream. Maybe with the best possible media under the best possible conditions you can reach those numbers for some media. There's plenty of actual experience out there that shows that in practical reality optical media can become unreadable in a matter of just a few years.


----------



## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

You're right. Here's an interesting post from a techie DVD guy which illustrates your point that DVDs can become unreliable:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11248531#post11248531

Still, DVD storage seems more reliable by several orders of magnitude than attempting to store large numbers of programs on loose HDDs just laying around. At least if a DVD fails it only contains a ±two hour program.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your posting. in a few days I'm going to have all 3 major DVRs(The DirecTV HD DVR(HR23-700), The HD Tivo, And the Moxi) with me. 

I like many of the advantages Moxi, but one I do have a question about one(If any Moxi users are still here). 

In bkdtvs post # 17 You can edit / delete recordings online.

What editing can you do online? I know this was asked before but no one answered.

Thanks.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

I'm here but can't answer your question because I don't use that feature.

I just replied to bkdtvs post # 17, as he asked *here*, and see that you also did in the post that followed, using a different Forum nick.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16859884#post16859884



bfdtv said:


> Originally at the end of the linked post: If anyone else has something to add to this please post.
> 
> 1.5 hour HD buffer per tuner (compared to 30 minutes for TiVo)


Moxis buffer is 1.5 hours per tuner *minimum* and can exceed 3 hours per tuner.



> No overlap protection, so 1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that can result in missed recordings. Many networks run their programs 1-2 minutes past the hour, and this creates conflicts with programs on other networks. TiVo clips off 1-2 minutes from the lowest-priority conflicting program so it still gets recorded, whereas Moxi cancels the recording for the conflicting program.


Moxi's _Recording Options_, can be set to shorten a recording's length up to 5 mins. or lengthen it up to 90 mins. when scheduling a recording (or afterward.)



> If the user is recording a sports event to watch later, or to watch on a delay to skip commercials, the viewing experience is "spoiled" because the user sees the score before they've started to watch the recording. This behavior is detrimental to sports viewing, but sporting events aren't the only programs affected; key plot developments in movies and series may be revealed before the user has the opportunity to watch the recording. That is not the desired behavior, as it acts as a built-in spoiler.
> When you finish watching a recorded program, the liveTV video window should always default to whatever channel is not recording. If two programs are recording, then display a black video window with a message, "Two recordings in progress. Press the LiveTV button to display the picture." If Moxi wishes to preserve the existing behavior for some users, then it should add this as an option in global settings.


When a recording is over Moxi displays the last still frame of the recording and no longer buffers that channel.



> Interface not as intuitive (subjective)
> 
> Auto-correction on FF / REW not as accurate as TiVo (subjective)
> 
> Moxi assumes that the user has faster reflexes, so it provides less auto-correction than TiVo.


These 'subjective' posts can be phrased in reverse and be just as truthful. My take on them is that:

TiVo's interface IS more intuitive than Moxi, but Moxi is amazing at how it automatically makes order out of seeming chaos; just by repeatedly pressing the Moxi button you're back where you started no matter where you've been!

TiVo's autocorrection is a real drag to use; it's so exaggerated at faster speeds it's annoying. Moxi's is undercorrected a small amount and isn't nearly as annoying.

When changing from FF to RW or vice versa Moxi is much more intuitive to me than TiVo's using the reverse direction button to slow down the speed in the original direction.



bfdtv said:


> If you want to narrow it down, then it would be:
> Moxi provides more features and options for liveTV viewing, and tends to be better for those who still watch a significant percentage of liveTV. TiVo provides more features and options for recording, and tends to be better those that watch mostly recorded programming.





fallingwater said:


> ...In short, TiVo is better than Moxi for watching (almost) everything timeshifted, while Moxi is better than TiVo for routinely watching a mix of live and timeshifted programming, as I do...


I have both Moxi and S3 TiVo and use both without CableCARDS as well as another S3 used *with* CC's.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Moxis buffer is 1.5 hours per tuner *minimum* and can exceed 3 hours per tuner.


I know you've said it can exceed three hours per tuner on SD/analog channels, but can it do that on HD channels too?

TiVo's buffer when saving [as a recording] is also up around ~45 minutes, even though you can only pause/rewind 30 minutes per tuner.

Regardless, I'll clarify the post to note that Moxi can offer more.



fallingwater said:


> Moxi's _Recording Options_, can be set to shorten a recording's length up to 5 mins. or lengthen it up to 90 mins. when scheduling a recording (or afterward.)


This doesn't have much utility, imo. Programs vary in duration from week to week. Are you really going to go through and adjust recordings every week so they aren't canceled due to a one minute overlap? Or are you going to cut the ending off a program every week when it is unnecessary?



fallingwater said:


> When a recording is over Moxi displays the last still frame of the recording and no longer buffers that channel.


But what happens when you exit the recording or hit the Moxi menu to find another recording?



fallingwater said:


> TiVo's autocorrection is a real drag to use; it's so exaggerated at faster speeds it's annoying. Moxi's is undercorrected a small amount and isn't nearly as annoying.


I think I'll remove that one since opinion seems more varied.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> PyTiVo does offer 'the plus', thanks to its developer: http://pytivo.armooo.net/
> 
> For you and perhaps the majority of posters here at TCF it's a significant and valuable feature. For me it's not. The question might best be paraphrased; 'How will it play in Peoria'; i.e. how much does it influence prospective TiVo buyers? In that regard, why didn't TiVo develop an improved TiVo Desktop themselves instead of letting a third party do so? Perhaps in TiVo's opinion it wouldn't develop enough revenue to offset its cost?
> 
> ...


well free TiVo desktop would do the same for me - just that it looks a little clunkier and also TiVo desktop is designed to do more and has PC resource leaks and issues as a result. pyTiVo is also free and incredibly easy to install now so that offsets any advantage in Moxi currently.

now if TiVo would just naturally see Windows Media centers and be able to pull over video without the end user installing anything else - that would put it more in the average users realm.

Of course we all want a simple streaming source that has the depth of media that keeps us from doing a search to find it elsewhere. TiVo seems closest on that with direct Netflix streaming.

as for wishlists - I find them highly valued for sports. (eg setup to find your favorite team home or away and no concern about what channel they might be on.) and also for getting that one show missing from a series. I also have a rolling folder of 25 movies via wishlist that let us catch all the first 5 harry Potter movies recently.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> I know you've said (Moxi's recording buffer) can exceed three hours per tuner on SD/analog channels, but can it do that on HD channels too?


Moxi's recording buffer length appears to be related the scheduled duration of a program in the EPG. There doesn't appear to be a significant difference between dongle analog buffers (except that I've mapped the dongle to VOD ch. 1 which employs 4 hr. programming blocks) and standard-def, and hi-def QAM. 3+ hours is on average how long a buffer gets, but Moxi's buffer is like no other; the beginnin moves forward in steps, unlike TiVo's. A 3+ hour buffer turns into a 1½ hour buffer instantaneously!



> TiVo's buffer when saving [as a recording] is also up around ~45 minutes, even though you can only pause/rewind 30 minutes per tuner.


Compared with TiVo's buffer there's, 'er, no comparison.

But a recording buffer is only important for viewers who watch live or buffered TV. More than one diehard timeshifting Forum poster has proposed that TiVo eliminate its recording buffer completely.



> (Padding from -5 mins. to + 1½ hours) doesn't have much utility, imo. Programs vary in duration from week to week. Are you really going to go through and adjust recordings every week so they aren't canceled due to a one minute overlap? Or are you going to cut the ending off a program every week when it is unnecessary?


It depends; after all there are 3 tuners, 2 digital, 1 analog, to record from at the same time. Seems like a more theoretical than practical objection, IMHO.



> ...what happens when you exit the recording or hit the Moxi menu to find another recording?


That damned frozen image remains UNLESS you select another channel or jump to the other buffered channel. When I first saw this behavior I thought it was a glitch and filed a trouble ticket. I got an email from Moxi's unusually attentive tech support that that's the way the program is written, to which I replied that that's OK, but the frozen frame really doesn't present Moxi at its best.

Still it's Moxi's DVR; I've learned from electronics companies, including TiVo, that you 'take it the way they make it or just forsake it!'


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> It depends; after all there are 3 tuners, 2 digital, 1 analog, to record from at the same time. Seems like a more theoretical than practical objection, IMHO.


FiOS has no analog channels, and a growing number of Comcast systems only offer the local and public interest channels in analog. That's the direction cable is heading.

During the spring and fall television seasons, I see several overlaps per month in the 1-3 minute range. I'm not one who does DVR maintenance -- I just turn on the TV and expect my shows to be there without any effort -- so those are shows I would miss on the Moxi.

If Moxi is able to update their software to use the QAM capability on the external Hauppauge USB tuner, and provide seamless network scheduling across local HD channels on CableCard and ClearQAM, then that would be a significant improvement.



fallingwater said:


> That damned frozen image remains UNLESS you select another channel or jump to the other buffered channel. When I first saw this behavior I thought it was a glitch and filed a trouble ticket. I got an email from Moxi's unusually attentive tech support that that's the way the program is written, to which I replied that that's OK, but the frozen frame really doesn't present Moxi at its best.


That's good to know. I wonder why Engadget and others complained about the Moxi kicking them into liveTV after a recording? Was this behavior changed in a software update?

I suppose the Moxi still has the "always displays liveTV" issue when you turn it on, however. There's no way to eliminate / avoid the liveTV window when you turn on the TV, correct?


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

fallingwater said:


> PyTiVo does offer 'the plus', thanks to its developer: http://pytivo.armooo.net/
> 
> For you and perhaps the majority of posters here at TCF it's a significant and valuable feature. For me it's not. The question might best be paraphrased; 'How will it play in Peoria'; i.e. how much does it influence prospective TiVo buyers? In that regard, why didn't TiVo develop an improved TiVo Desktop themselves instead of letting a third party do so? Perhaps in TiVo's opinion it wouldn't develop enough revenue to offset its cost?
> 
> ...





ZeoTiVo said:


> well free TiVo desktop would do the same for me - just that it looks a little clunkier and also TiVo desktop is designed to do more and has PC resource leaks and issues as a result. pyTiVo is also free and incredibly easy to install now so that offsets any advantage in Moxi currently.
> 
> now if TiVo would just naturally see Windows Media centers and be able to pull over video without the end user installing anything else - that would put it more in the average users realm.
> 
> ...


Took you awhile to reply to that post, no?

All that stuff, including Wishlists, is great, but I just need a recording machine that can play an entire recording before the spring runs down. TiVo's got the sturdiest springs of any of 'em!

Basically TiVo would play well in Peoria without all the fancy stuff. Problem is that TiVo apparently can't post a profit, even from a newfangled all-electric machine!

Y'know that ain't fair; mebbe' they oughta' sue somebody!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

fallingwater said:


> I got an email from Moxi's unusually attentive tech support


Easy to be attentive when you only have 200 customers. The hardest part is breaking away from a rousing game of Mindsweeper when you get the email notification.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> FiOS has no analog channels, and a growing number of Comcast systems only offer the local and public interest channels in analog. That's the direction cable is heading.


True, and like you state; _'If Moxi is able to update their software to use the QAM capability on the external Hauppauge USB tuner, and provide seamless network scheduling across local HD channels on CableCard and ClearQAM, then that would be a significant improvement.'_

In the meantime FIOS isn't available here yet, but Comcast is switching to Extended Basic via QAM only. Still that leaves 27 analog Limited Basic channels including 8, at least quasi, 'networks' where I live. (PBS is an example of a 'quasi network'.) (Y'know one of the unique things about Canadian commercial TV is that, on occasion, their networks air a program before the US air date.)



> During the spring and fall television seasons, I see several overlaps per month in the 1-3 minute range. I'm not one who does DVR maintenance -- I just turn on the TV and expect my shows to be there without any effort -- so those are shows I would miss on the Moxi.


Obviously then you shouldn't consider buying Moxi. I have different expectations from TV than you. Moxi fits them more closely than TiVo, but TiVo is fine.



> (Moxi's behavior after a recording is completed is) good to know. I wonder why Engadget and others complained about the Moxi kicking them into liveTV after a recording? Was this behavior changed in a software update?


Perhaps Engadget is referring to the other buffered channel. I don't know about software changes but was surprised to see the frozen frame. I don't think it was there at first. But at first Moxi was running 10 hour recording buffers.



> I suppose the Moxi still has the "always displays liveTV" issue when you turn it on, however. There's no way to eliminate / avoid the liveTV window when you turn on the TV, correct?


Why do you fret so? The solution is so easy I put it into the header ↑


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Langree said:


> Easy to be attentive when you only have 200 customers. The hardest part is breaking away from a rousing game of Mindsweeper when you get the email notification.


Did you post that from a hyperbolic chamber? 

Remember when TiVo had exceptional tech/customer support?


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## oldsyd (Apr 6, 2009)

> Clear QAM channel mapping through a web interface to fully support HD locals on cable -- with program information-- without the need for a CableCard.


Amen to that.

My local cable company is slowly migrating away from any analog cable signals and slowly forcing everyone to rent digital boxes or rent CableCards in order to map clear QAM channels.

On one hand, it does make sense to drop analog channels to make way for QAM digital, but requiring people to continue to rent more crud from them is pure evil.

I purchased a TiVo HD with a lifetime subscription JUST SO I COULD STOP RENTING EQUIPMENT. I don't care if it is $2 or $1 or whatever, I don't want to rent equipment from ANYONE.

So, when my cable company finally kills the basic cable package and kills all the analog channels, then I will be forced to Ebay my TiVo and purchase a MOXI.

If MOXI can map clear QAM, then Tivo can figure it out too. Even if TiVo is too lazy to update the software for this, AT LEAST allow me to manually map the channels and maintain the list.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Moxi has SDV support and a 16:9 widescreen guide coming in 2-3 weeks. The guide shows 2.5 hours of information, or one hour more than TiVo.

More information and pre-release screenshots shown below:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16938546#post16938546


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

oldsyd said:


> So, when my cable company finally kills the basic cable package and kills all the analog channels, then I will be forced to Ebay my TiVo and purchase a MOXI.


Moxi only allows you to manually remap information from the analog channel to the digital version. For now, Moxi does not allow you remap guide information to digital-only channels.

If your cable company won't allow you to get a CableCard with basic cable service, you might consider upgrading temporarily, and then retain the CableCard after you revert to basic cable service. You'd be hit with a monthly charge for the CableCard, but then you'd get digital versions of all your basic cable channels with program information.

Over time, more and more channels will be moved to the digital tier, and many will be encrypted, so you will need a CableCard eventually if you want much more than locals.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

oldsyd said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> My local cable company is slowly migrating away from any analog cable signals and slowly forcing everyone to rent digital boxes or rent CableCards in order to map clear QAM channels.
> 
> If MOXI can map clear QAM, then Tivo can figure it out too. Even if TiVo is too lazy to update the software for this, AT LEAST allow me to manually map the channels and maintain the list.


If your local cable co is Comcast, you're going to end up with almost nothing except locals in clear QAM anyway, so the Moxi buys you nothing. It's just a matter of time before they encrypt the expanded basic SD channels after the migration. And for HD, you don't get anything but the locals in the clear anyway.


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## oldsyd (Apr 6, 2009)

I have over 80 clear QAM channels now with Mediacom basic cable.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Moxi has SDV support and a 16:9 widescreen (grid) guide coming in 2-3 weeks. The guide shows 2.5 hours of information, or one hour more than TiVo.
> 
> More information and pre-release screenshots shown below:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16938546#post16938546





bkdtv said:


> Moxi only allows you to manually remap information from the analog channel to the digital version. For now, Moxi does not allow you remap guide information to digital-only channels.
> 
> If your cable company won't allow you to get a CableCard with basic cable service, you might consider upgrading temporarily, and then retain the CableCard after you revert to basic cable service. You'd be hit with a monthly charge for the CableCard, but then you'd get digital versions of all your basic cable channels with program information.
> 
> Over time, more and more channels will be moved to the digital tier, and many will be encrypted, so you will need a CableCard eventually if you want much more than locals.





slowbiscuit said:


> If your local cable co is Comcast, you're going to end up with almost nothing except locals in clear QAM anyway, so the Moxi buys you nothing. It's just a matter of time before they encrypt the expanded basic SD channels after the migration. And for HD, you don't get anything but the locals in the clear anyway.


Moxi provides competition for TiVo and both TiVo and Moxi users benefit from such competition.

Moxi's grid guide looks encouraging. Moxi's grid won't provide the functionality of ReplayTV's EPG, my favorite, no matter what it looks like, but it's interesting that _itgeek_ compares Moxi's grid style to ReplayTV's EPG, which he doesn't like:

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16938263#post16938263
'I don't like grid guides so it doesn't turn my crank. Sort of reminds me of the old ReplayTV guide. Basic looking but functional.'

Here's how I supply Moxi/TiVo/Comcast to a DVD recorder and then to ReplayTVs in systems in two rooms. As a hi-def source used in conjunction with a DVD recorder, Moxi is more cumbersome to use than TiVo:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16927764#post16927764
'My standard set-up these days, in two rooms, is a standard-def cable STB, or a Moxi used without CableCARDS, or an S3 Tivo used without CableCARDS. The latter two can be watched live or from their buffers in hi-def (however Moxi outputs only standard-def when providing a signal to a DVD recorder) but are also connected to an HDD DVD recorder with recording buffer, which is in turn connected to a RTV 4XXX for its EPG, _Bypass_ feature, and backup 12 hour+ recording buffer.

Only the hi-def DVRs are relatively expensive. Any component in a signal chain can be switched to a monitor and watched in hi-def or standard-def as available.'

It's too soon to speculate on what Moxi may or not provide regarding programming info for unscrambled QAM mapping or to what degree cable co's will scramble Extended Basic QAM channels. Here's an interesting thread which discusses the issue. Notice how FUD and fact are both represented.
 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22753607-DTA-Sony-XBR-TV-and-DTA


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

oldsyd said:


> I purchased a TiVo HD with a lifetime subscription JUST SO I COULD STOP RENTING EQUIPMENT. I don't care if it is $2 or $1 or whatever, I don't want to rent equipment from ANYONE.
> 
> So, when my cable company finally kills the basic cable package and kills all the analog channels, then I will be forced to Ebay my TiVo and purchase a MOXI.
> 
> If MOXI can map clear QAM, then Tivo can figure it out too. Even if TiVo is too lazy to update the software for this, AT LEAST allow me to manually map the channels and maintain the list.


Technically, I believe you may be able to buy cablecards from your cable company, but it's VERY expensive.

While I don't like the requirement to have cablecards either, to be fair, doesn't the documentation/box with your TivoHD say that it may require equipment from the cable company?

With bktv's recent addition about moxi, apparently they aren't any better currently regarding digital only channels..


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Moxi only allows you to manually remap information from the analog channel to the digital version. For now, Moxi does not allow you remap guide information to digital-only channels.


I'm currently in the process of rescanning my line-up and will post again, probably tomorrow, when the rescan has completed and I have time to remap any changes.

AFAIK, Moxi allows any channel to be manually mapped to any other channel, so at this point I disagree with your quoted statement.

As you know there are three kinds of QAM channel numbers, a cable co's designated channel number; e.g. Comcast's ch. 105 for KING-DT Seattle; the actual channel number a station occupies on a cable system, such as Comcast's ch. 85-2 for KING-DT; and a virtual, PSIP generated, channel number such as ch. 5.1 for KING-DT.

KING-TV Seattle also is available on another set of channel numbers for its standard-def version which display the same EPG info. (KING-TV is Comcast's designated channel 5 in both digital and analog versions, doesn't employ a PSIP virtual channel, and occupies actual QAM channel 79-4.)

Extended Basic channels use Comcast's designated channel number plus both actual and virtual channel numbers. CNN's numbers are Comcast ch. 44, actual ch. 116-7 and virtual ch. 116-3. (Go figure!)

Therefore using cable co's designated channel line-ups, Moxi can easily provide EPG data for a line-up's actual and/or virtual QAM channels. Moxi (or TiVo, Sony, or any QAM tuner) may use either an actual or virtual ch. number to tune a given station, but never both.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> I'm currently in the process of rescanning my line-up and will post again, probably tomorrow, when the rescan has completed and I have time to remap any changes.
> 
> AFAIK, Moxi allows any channel to be manually mapped to any other channel, so at this point I disagree with your quoted statement.


Perhaps this changed since release and my information is outdated? I'm fairly certain there were some former Sony DVR users that complained they could no longer remap every channel, but only those that had analog versions.

As a test, can you remap the information for Discovery Theater HD to another channel?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> In genral there are many reasons. Striped volumes enjoy greater efficiency, greater throughput, lower latency, less CPU overhead, and less loss of space than linear arrays, RAID 5 /6 arrays, or JBOD volumes.


RAID 5/6 is always striped, with 1/2 parity disks, and so enjoy the same greater throughput and lower latency. Not sure if you just mis-typed or something.


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> RAID 5/6 is always striped, with 1/2 parity disks, and so enjoy the same greater throughput and lower latency. Not sure if you just mis-typed or something.


I think his wording was inexact, but I believe his intention was to convey that to get those features in RAID 5 or 6 that you sacrifice space.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> RAID 5/6 is always striped, with 1/2 parity disks, and so enjoy the same greater throughput and lower latency. Not sure if you just mis-typed or something.


RAID 5 can be slow in writing but very quick in reading data.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> If your local cable co is Comcast, you're going to end up with almost nothing except locals in clear QAM anyway, so the Moxi buys you nothing. It's just a matter of time before they encrypt the expanded basic SD channels after the migration. And for HD, you don't get anything but the locals in the clear anyway.


It's my understanding that this may not be the case. In order for Comcast to utilize the Digital Tuning Adapters that they are deploying for their Basic customers, they have to leave the channels unencrypted and CableCard-equipped STBs are not cost-effective for customers with cheaper plans.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

fyodor said:


> It's my understanding that this may not be the case. In order for Comcast to utilize the Digital Tuning Adapters that they are deploying for their Basic customers, they have to leave the channels unencrypted and CableCard-equipped STBs are not cost-effective for customers with cheaper plans.


The DTA's can decrypt channels, but they are currently not allowed to do so because of the integration ban which states that integrated decryption (without CableCards) is prohibited. Comcast has petitioned the FCC for a waiver for the DTA. Most expect the FCC to grant the waiver, since they already granted a waiver for a similar box.

Assuming the waiver is granted, Comcast will re-enable encryption and the channels will become unavailable without a DTA, cable set top box or CableCard device.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

morac said:


> The DTA's can decrypt channels, but they are currently not allowed to do so because of the integration ban which states that integrated decryption (without CableCards) is prohibited. Comcast has petitioned the FCC for a waiver for the DTA. Most expect the FCC to grant the waiver, since they already granted a waiver for a similar box.
> 
> Assuming the waiver is granted, Comcast will re-enable encryption and the channels will become unavailable without a DTA, cable set top box or CableCard device.


thanks - i hadn't seen that anywhere.

Looks like there's going to be a showdown over the DTA's-
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=179127&site=cdn

also of note is that the similar waiver was (according to the PR from the company- evolution broadband) was NOT cable system specific but rather their box was granted a waiver on any system. Previously i know that the FCC offered cable company's waivers under certain conditions- but i think this is hte first that says Device X is allowed anywhere.

looks like it's over johny for clear qam...


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

FrodoB said:


> I think his wording was inexact, but I believe his intention was to convey that to get those features in RAID 5 or 6 that you sacrifice space.


But you gain redundancy, and the ability to have 1-2 disk failures with no data loss.

That's waaaaay better than the WHS/JBOD sillyness...


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> But you gain redundancy, and the ability to have 1-2 disk failures with no data loss.
> 
> That's waaaaay better than the WHS/JBOD sillyness...


Yeah, I know. Considering lrhorer runs RAID 5 (or maybe 6) setups for most of his storage arrays, I'm pretty sure he knows that too. 

(On the other hand, if Nvidia releases a buggy driver that causes your array to corrupt like happened to me a couple of years back, no amount of hardware redundancy helps....)


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Perhaps this changed since release and my information is outdated? I'm fairly certain there were some former Sony DVR users that complained they could no longer remap every channel, but only those that had analog versions.
> 
> As a test, can you remap the information for Discovery Theater HD to another channel?


Moxi does include Discovery Theater HD EPG data in its list of channels available at this location for mapping to any viewable channel, analog or QAM, but as it's a scrambled QAM channel info for Discovery HD Theater isn't usable.

Sony's TVGOS is a completely different animal. In many ways it's more versatile than other EPGs because its listings aren't limited to a single location but are regional or go even farther afield. However while Discovery's hi-def simulcast is listed in TVGOS' channel line-up, Discovery Theatre HD is not.

IMHO, Limited or Extended Basic QAM channels that are likely to be scrambled are hi-def channels. The FCC doesn't require carriage of OTA simulcasts in hi-def. Standard-def Extended Basic channels accessed by a DTA may or may not eventually be scrambled but, IMHO if they are it won't be soon.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

fallingwater said:


> Moxi does include Discovery Theater HD EPG data in its list of channels available at this location for mapping to any viewable channel, analog or QAM, but as it's a scrambled QAM channel info for Discovery HD Theater isn't usable.


Thanks, good to know that is no longer an issue. I'll update my posts.


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## ericlhyman (May 19, 2001)

Are there any significant differences in picture quality and audio quality between the Moxi, Tivo HD, and Tivo HD-XL?

How does the information in the program guide on the show episodes compare between Moxi and Tivo?

Are there any limitations with Verizon Fios and the Moxi or Tivo, including VOD?

Does the Moxi require 1 or 2 or 3 FIOS cable cards and which type and how does this compare to the Tivo HD and HD-XL?


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## ericlhyman (May 19, 2001)

When you add an external drive to the Moxi do you have simultaneous access to the original hard drive and the external drive? What about with the Tivo HD and HD-XL?

Does the Tivo HD and HD-XL provide access to Netflix HD?


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

ericlhyman said:


> When you add an external drive to the Moxi do you have simultaneous access to the original hard drive and the external drive? What about with the Tivo HD and HD-XL?
> 
> Does the Tivo HD and HD-XL provide access to Netflix HD?


They both handle external drives the same way. When you plug in an external drive it acts as an add on not a replacement to the main Hard Drive.

Yes, The Tivo HD and HD-XL provide access to Netflix HD.

The only Differences in both units is Moxi can add up to a 6TB external drive, when Tivo can add only 1TB(With HD-XL that would be a total of 2TB of internal and external drives).


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