# Series 3 Tivo To Go Update with new Cable Card rules?



## NCRobino (Jul 6, 2005)

Hey guys, 

Just wondering if anyone can update me as to the TivoToGo status for the S3? 

I know that the cable card ruling just finally passed and the rules are lightening up for competition to come into the game. 

Will this affect Tivo's ability to start up the Tivo To Go feature for the S3 anytime soon?

If not, does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can get recordings (non HD or HD) off the Tivo to the computer and back to the Tivo in the meantime??

Thanks!
Rob


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Nothing changed for the S3.

The rules just say that new cable company boxes have to have cable cards too. Since none of them do anything like TTG, that isn't effected.

As far as we know, we're still on track for some form of MRV/TTG this year.


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## LCD1080 (Dec 13, 2006)

NCRobino said:


> ...does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can get recordings (non HD or HD) off the Tivo to the computer and back to the Tivo in the meantime?


I can use the "Save to VCR" function to store my S3's non-HD recordings onto my Sony computer which has a built in TV tuner and Gigapocket video recording software. I would think you could do that with any computer that has a TV tuner card and software.


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## NCRobino (Jul 6, 2005)

Does that require hard wiring to the output on the tivo or can it be done through the netork at all?

Thanks

Rob


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

That approach requires relies on a video stream; it doesn't go via the network. I use an S-Video cable, please RCA cables for right-and-left audio.


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## LCD1080 (Dec 13, 2006)

NCRobino said:


> Does that require hard wiring to the output on the tivo or can it be done through the network at all?


It's hard wiring. I connect a cable with RCA plugs to the A/V outputs of S3 and the A/V inputs on my computer.


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## ronnieko (Oct 28, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Nothing changed for the S3.
> 
> The rules just say that new cable company boxes have to have cable cards too. Since none of them do anything like TTG, that isn't effected.
> 
> As far as we know, we're still on track for some form of MRV/TTG this year.


Does anyone know if there is a possibility of them NEVER allowing MRV/TTG on the S3?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo has mentioned casually to some of the regulars that if CableLabs denies them access to TTG then they plan to release it in a limited form which will allow it to work with OTA and analog channels, but not digital cable channels. This is a less then ideal solution, but it would be better then nothing.

Dan


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

What Dan said.

Something that will be unclear to some readers is just how many channels they think are digital are actually analog. Chances are, if your local cable company has a large number of channels in analog and also in digital, that they will not duplicate the channel as a digital signal. Sure- it will have a different number, but it's still analog. My cable provider is Time Warner, and where I live, about 90% of the channels in the non premium tiers are still analog. So in my case, enabling "Just" analog will be almost identical to full enabling of TTG/MRV. For others it will mean less. Your mileage will definately vary- many major metropolitan areas are nearly all digital but you can check if all you have is a cable Set top Box. (Does anyone know if there is a possibility of them NEVER allowing MRV/TTG on the S3?[/QUOTE]]for Motorola boxes here for Scientific Atlanta boxes here). If you have an S3, there is an easier way to spot check as you will see in the same thread.

Anyhow- Dan's response is the authoritative response, but I composed a response last night but neglected to send it. For what it's worth-


ronnieko said:


> Does anyone know if there is a possibility of them NEVER allowing MRV/TTG on the S3?


Not supporting TTG or MRV on the S3? That's about as likely as Apple deciding to stop supporting the Mac OS and shipping computers with Windows instead.

I'd be stunned if by year end they don't have TTG, and MRV working for all analog and OTA including HD, as well as HD and SD TivoBack.

There might be bonuses that would be really really cool on top of that- like TivoBack support of MPEG4- effectively allowing you to store a thousand movies on a 2TB S3. The cool thing would be to use the PC to compress shows on the S3- eg. have it take any Keep until I delete, move it over to the PC- compress it to MPEG4, then replace the original. It would effectively triple or quadruple the hard drive capacity of the S3.

Maybe not in the first rev, but Tivo will do it because the machine can support it. It is inevitable that the prices of 1TB drives will come down and when they do, the universe changes because everyone will have these ginormous libraries on the S3. This will take video consumption patterns to a whole new level. For one, HBO, Showtime, PPV and VOD will become increasingly irrelevant to viewers who have larger choice of shows they care about available on their S3. The nail in the premium tier coffin is that the S3 shows are free.

But yeah- you say- that only works for analog. Well- No, because if cablelabs digs in their heals you know what Tivo could do? Functionally, if the S3 could record from an STB via an analog connection, it would be ok to TTG and MRV it. But the S3 doesn't need a digital STB. The S3 has it's own decoder and already produces an analog signal. So as silly as it sounds, an new rev of the S3 could simply take the analog output of the decoders, send it into the encoder for an analog channel and voila- you have a stream of data that you can TTG/MRV- including SD versions of HD shows. Everything that doesn't have copy flags. Note that this could be done at TTG/MRV time. The downside is that this would require the use of the decoder that is normally used for playing so this admittedly unlikely scenario, so maybe they put an analog input on the back of the S3 along with some IR blasters and call it a day.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Justin Thyme said:


> What Dan said.
> 
> Something that will be unclear to some readers is just how many channels they think are digital are actually analog. Chances are, if your local cable company has a large number of channels in analog and also in digital, that they will not duplicate the channel as a digital signal. Sure- it will have a different number, but it's still analog. My cable provider is Time Warner, and where I live, about 90% of the channels in the non premium tiers are still analog. So in my case, enabling "Just" analog will be almost identical to full enabling of TTG/MRV. For others it will mean less. Your mileage will definately vary- many major metropolitan areas are nearly all digital but you can check if all you have is a cable Set top Box. (for Motorola boxes here for Scientific Atlanta boxes here). If you have an S3, there is an easier way to spot check as you will see in the same thread.
> 
> ...


Comcast in Hartford sends all channels out in digital simulcast when using the Cable Cards, you have no choice, I have noway to change the quality setting on any channel because of this.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> they will not duplicate the channel as a digital signal.


I'd be very surprised if there are still cable companies (at least amongst the large MSOs) not doing full ADS at this point, at least if they're using Motorola. If they're not already, they may not begin for a while, though, since the window for getting the DCT700 all digital sub-$100 type boxes out there has closed.

Every channel I receive on my S3 is digital, since they have the CableCARDs set to use the digital versions, just like their own boxes. It's good for me, too, since their encoders are far better than the ones in the S3. Their bitrate on the ADS channels is between half and two thirds of what the S3 uses for a similar quality, which is somewhere between high and best. The resolution is the same for almost all of the channels, too. Their encoders are really top notch.

I somehow doubt I would be so happy about it if their encoders were of poor quality or they were compressing to the point of seriously degrading the picture quality.

Of course, it doesn't really matter anyway, since my hard drive would hold plenty of SD even with the S3 set to best.


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## cokyq (Jan 21, 2007)

I think for those of us not using Cable Cards, just good old OTA signals, the TIVO should detect this and turn on TTG! 

No Cablecard copyright issues here!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

cokyq said:


> I think for those of us not using Cable Cards, just good old OTA signals, the TIVO should detect this and turn on TTG! No Cablecard copyright issues here!


That's exactly what they've said they are working on.

Sadly, there isn't a magic wand to wave and make this happen.


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

wierdo said:


> I'd be very surprised if there are still cable companies (at least amongst the large MSOs) not doing full ADS at this point, at least if they're using Motorola. If they're not already, they may not begin for a while, though, since the window for getting the DCT700 all digital sub-$100 type boxes out there has closed.


Time Warner in multiple locations (including my service in Raleigh NC) is doing ADS but they force all Cable Card owners to the Analog version instead the Digital version on any station that is simulcast. Their stated reason is that they will be going SDV on the digital version of many of those channels and they didn't want to give us digital and then take it back when they go SDV.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> Time Warner in multiple locations (including my service in Raleigh NC) is doing ADS but they force all Cable Card owners to the Analog version instead the Digital version on any station that is simulcast. Their stated reason is that they will be going SDV on the digital version of many of those channels and they didn't want to give us digital and then take it back when they go SDV.


TW makes no sense. Generally speaking, the channels on the analog tiers are the most widely viewed, thus provide almost no benefit from SDV. Additionally, each QAM can hold 12 SD channels with high quality, so it's not like they're gaining much, even when they put special interest channels on SDV.

I really think that to a large degree cable companies are doing SDV to screw 3rd party devices more than anything. There's no need to switch SD.

In Tulsa, Cox could have a net gain of 55 QAMs just by eliminating analog entirely. That's enough for at least 100 HD channels, and still have enough room to add around 60 new SD channels.

SDV is only really useful for cable companies who have neglected making needed capex in the last 10 or 15 years and are still on 550MHz or less plants. I was reading the other day that some systems are going to be upgrading to 1200MHz or more in the near future.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> That's exactly what they've said they are working on.
> 
> Sadly, there isn't a magic wand to wave and make this happen.


While everyone thinks CableLabs is holding TTG and MRV back, I think TiVo has a lot of technical issues to work out. For instance, it isn't clear if the encryption used for TTG in the S2 will even work on digital recordings (afaik, TTG encryption only works on mpeg-2 files). Also, it would probably require a lot of different new cases TiVos will have to handle when doing MRV from S3 <> S2 since it's not clear if you could transfer HD to a S2 box.


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

wierdo said:


> TW makes no sense. Generally speaking, the channels on the analog tiers are the most widely viewed, thus provide almost no benefit from SDV. Additionally, each QAM can hold 12 SD channels with high quality, so it's not like they're gaining much, even when they put special interest channels on SDV.


I made that very point to their VP of Engineering for the Region. His response was that I was thinking of SDV as being too static of an allocation. They are basing their decisions on actual data from the Columbia SC roll out of SDV and looking at channel usage per node over time. He stated that the SDV definition may be/will be different by node and may change over time. He even used the example that a channel that may be SDV today may go to fixed channel tomorrow and then back to SDV the following day (for a big season finale or the olympics).

He also said they are bound by some local carriage and local municipal licensing agreements to keep most of those lower tier channels available on analog until they make their switch over to all digital. So, this was their workaround to make the best use of their bandwidth until they can get rid of analog entirely. No timeframe was mentioned for that but I got the impression that it wasn't near term.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

rainwater said:


> While everyone thinks CableLabs is holding TTG and MRV back, I think TiVo has a lot of technical issues to work out. For instance, it isn't clear if the encryption used for TTG in the S2 will even work on digital recordings (afaik, TTG encryption only works on mpeg-2 files). Also, it would probably require a lot of different new cases TiVos will have to handle when doing MRV from S3 <> S2 since it's not clear if you could transfer HD to a S2 box.


I'm sure there are issues (flagging S3 HD needing to get flagged as no good on an SD is one example) but to my knowledge all cable content today is MPEG2 so the TTG encryption will be fine for now even if it's MPEG2 only. Some have made noise about moving to MPEG4 or other newer codecs but I dont think I've read of anyplace that TODAY has anything but MPEG2 content on it's system.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wierdo said:


> ... Generally speaking, the channels on the analog tiers are the most widely viewed, thus provide almost no benefit from SDV. Additionally, each QAM can hold 12 SD channels with high quality, so it's not like they're gaining much, even when they put special interest channels on SDV......


I figured it out once by looking at the ratings and besides the broadcast networks there's only a handfull on channels with any kind of large share (ESPN, Disney, and maybe a few others)- so if a provider has 60 analog channels probably half of them could get put on SDV and might make sense.

Comcast is talking about using SDV to have 400 HD offerings by year end and 800 by end of 2008. Likely much of that is PPV and VOD and the like, but point is SDV looks to be a significant force in the future. (and hopefully tivo works out a deal so the S3's can handle it at some point....)

Once you have everyone SDV ready why not put everything SDV. Sure some channels will have the same assignment for years (like "dynamic" DHCP addresses for cable modems in some places)- once you hit critical mass there's really no stopping the mess- and as you point out it's not a downside that it looks out competitive boxes.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> I made that very point to their VP of Engineering for the Region. His response was that I was thinking of SDV as being too static of an allocation. They are basing their decisions on actual data from the Columbia SC roll out of SDV and looking at channel usage per node over time. He stated that the SDV definition may be/will be different by node and may change over time. He even used the example that a channel that may be SDV today may go to fixed channel tomorrow and then back to SDV the following day (for a big season finale or the olympics).
> 
> He also said they are bound by some local carriage and local municipal licensing agreements to keep most of those lower tier channels available on analog until they make their switch over to all digital. So, this was their workaround to make the best use of their bandwidth until they can get rid of analog entirely. No timeframe was mentioned for that but I got the impression that it wasn't near term.


I think any discussion about the analog channels should include the fact the FCC is pushing cable to all digital. There is the sticky issue of all of the analog cable ready TVs not connected via a cable box (including 2 in my house). The FCC mandates a broadcast tier, but (I don't think) a basic cable tier. The broadcast tier is easy to go all digital. CNN, Weather Channel, shopping channels, and lot of SD stuff are going HD. I'd be pleasantly surprised at municipal licensing agreements that discuss digital vs analog.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> Comcast is talking about using SDV to have 400 HD offerings by year end and 800 by end of 2008. Likely much of that is PPV and VOD and the like, but point is SDV looks to be a significant force in the future. (and hopefully tivo works out a deal so the S3's can handle it at some point....)


Comcast is talking out of their behind even more than DirecTV. Perhaps they're being disingenuous enough to count each individual HD VOD program as a separate HD channel.

For the next year or so, there's no need whatsoever for more capacity than about 100 HD channels, as there won't even be 100 HD channels by that time. 20 QAMs would likely be enough for HD VOD in most situations, anyway, so freeing up 50 channels would be plenty. Instead they act like monopolists and start using a technology that third parties cannot contractually use, no matter how much effort they are willing to put into making it work.

Competitive pressures are not behind SDV, pointless monopolism is. They're doing it out of habit, not because they'll actually _gain_ anything. That's what ticks me off the most.

What's worse is that once they go all digital, which they all will (save some small single system operators or perhaps some SuddenLink markets) within 4 or 5 years, they'll be wasting maintenance dollars on a completely unneeded technology (or throwing it away to save money). That would be fine, except that we're the ones paying for it. I somehow doubt they're going to reduce executive pay or take less profit rather than raising rates to cover the extra expense.

I'd be OK with it if it weren't completely pointless.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

vstone said:


> I think any discussion about the analog channels should include the fact the FCC is pushing cable to all digital. There is the sticky issue of all of the analog cable ready TVs not connected via a cable box (including 2 in my house). The FCC mandates a broadcast tier, but (I don't think) a basic cable tier. The broadcast tier is easy to go all digital. CNN, Weather Channel, shopping channels, and lot of SD stuff are going HD. I'd be pleasantly surprised at municipal licensing agreements that discuss digital vs analog.


The FCC is not pushing all digital on the cable plant.

ajwees41


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

ajwees41 said:


> The FCC is not pushing all digital on the cable plant.
> 
> ajwees41


Not directly, but they are (were?) making it somewhat to the cable company's advantage to go all digital.

There's certainly no requirement that they do so as there is with OTA, however.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

ajwees41 said:


> The FCC is not pushing all digital on the cable plant.
> 
> ajwees41


The FCC recently granted waivers for the new cable box regulations to many cable systems based on the fact that they had plans in place to go all digital in the near future. The carrot, not the stick approach.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Also, in a recent proposal, the FCC would grant waivers from a proposed new rule that would require providing analog versions of local digital channels after February 2009 -- waivers to cable systems that voluntarily went *all*-digital.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Others have made my case for me. Thanx!

Even if you think the FCC isn't pushing digital (overtly or covertly), the other issues there stand.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ajwees41 said:


> The FCC is not pushing all digital on the cable plant.
> 
> ajwees41


they are nudging and they offering exemptions for the July1 cablecard rules for any provider that offered to go all digital before for the analog broadcast cut off date.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm sure there are issues (flagging S3 HD needing to get flagged as no good on an SD is one example) but to my knowledge all cable content today is MPEG2 so the TTG encryption will be fine for now even if it's MPEG2 only. Some have made noise about moving to MPEG4 or other newer codecs but I dont think I've read of anyplace that TODAY has anything but MPEG2 content on it's system.


But since its a CableLabs approved feature, wouldn't it have to work with ANY content that could be provided? If so, that is going to require an update to the encryption currently being used.


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

I doubt you are going to find any cable company switching to MPEG4 in the near future. 

AFIK, MPEG4 requires a separate CODEC chip, since no current cable boxes have a powerful enough processor or enough memory to handle it via software. 

If a cable company wanted to switch to only MPEG4, they would need to replace all their currently deployed cable boxes with new ones.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

BruceShultes said:


> I doubt you are going to find any cable company switching to MPEG4 in the near future.
> 
> AFIK, MPEG4 requires a separate CODEC chip, since no current cable boxes have a powerful enough processor or enough memory to handle it via software.
> 
> If a cable company wanted to switch to only MPEG4, they would need to replace all their currently deployed cable boxes with new ones.


SA just released a cablecard version of the 8300HD. Maybe they replaced the codec chip with one that will handle MPEG4. I'm not sure that its likely, but its possible. And since cable companies are making everyone share the cost for new cablecard cable boxes (actually the CFR may require it, for other reasons. I'd have to look at it again) they could have us pay to upgrade their boxes' MPEG chip for capabilities that aren't yet even available to us. At some point they move the MPEG2 only boxes to SD or basic tier service and replace them with MPEG4 boxes for HD customers. I don't think we should underestimate the combined planning of the cable plant manufacturers and cable plant owners to evade the FCC and to find ways to take our money.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

the only cable boxes that I've heard of that have (will have) mpeg4 chips are the panasonic OCAP DVR's that comcast ordered like 2 ces' ago but no one has seen or heard of since. So maybe next year or so they will start to trickle out.

So maybe somehow mpeg4 is linked to OCAP? Cablecard boxes can't do it but OCAP can?

I need to re-read the regs again but I believe Vstone is correct that cable is not permitted to profit OR subsidize equipment costs. I believe they can profit or subsidize individual equipment but their entire equipment budget should operate at break even. Since most places rent plain stb's that were bought and paid for 5 years ago for 2 bucks a month and then only charge 5-10 a month for HD DVR's it seems there is some leeway for sure in individual boxes but in the end I believe they need to break even as a whole for equipment.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'd love to read that regulation, if it exists.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Actually I believe it says that the "equipment basket" can make a "reasonable profit." There is some wording in there about the average cost for a specific type of equipment. I take this to say that costs for the old SA8300HD must be averaged in with the cost of the new cablecard version of the SA8300HD to arrive at the customer charge for the SA8300HD series.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Now THAT sounds plausible. I couldn't imagine that the regulation prohibited profit.


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## ronnieko (Oct 28, 2004)

rainwater said:


> While everyone thinks CableLabs is holding TTG and MRV back, I think TiVo has a lot of technical issues to work out. For instance, it isn't clear if the encryption used for TTG in the S2 will even work on digital recordings (afaik, TTG encryption only works on mpeg-2 files). Also, it would probably require a lot of different new cases TiVos will have to handle when doing MRV from S3 <> S2 since it's not clear if you could transfer HD to a S2 box.


I called Tivo, and heard an explanation I never heard before. She said they will never do TTG and MRV on the S3 because they don't want law suits from people who PC's got ruined, from the large size HiDef programing going onto PC's with small Hard drives...
I said, I thought it was issues with Cable Labs, she said no.

I told her I got a lot of info from the TiVo forums, and she said they really don't know much on there, LOL...


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Cablecard and MPEG4 are separate entities. Satellite is doing MPEG4 fine without OCAP.

I think TTG and MRV can very well work with "digital " content, it is just that Cablelabs simply doesn't like the fact that TiVo copies rather than streams content.

As PCs get bigger and powerful, with and with large HDDs being rather cheap, that CSR is full of it. The only thing is it would take longer to transfer an HD recording.


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## drcos (Jul 20, 2001)

ronnieko said:


> I told her I got a lot of info from the TiVo forums, and she said they really don't know much on there, LOL...


I myself have suspected this for some time  
I have had several PC problems when attempting to download large errr, 'art' movie files.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

vstone said:


> Actually I believe it says that the "equipment basket" can make a "reasonable profit." There is some wording in there about the average cost for a specific type of equipment. I take this to say that costs for the old SA8300HD must be averaged in with the cost of the new cablecard version of the SA8300HD to arrive at the customer charge for the SA8300HD series.


might say that. I'd have to reread. But they certainly can't gouge and they can't use the basket as a loss leader.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

TiVolunteer said:


> Time Warner in multiple locations (including my service in Raleigh NC) is doing ADS but they force all Cable Card owners to the Analog version instead the Digital version on any station that is simulcast. Their stated reason is that they will be going SDV on the digital version of many of those channels and they didn't want to give us digital and then take it back when they go SDV.


More like they are lazy to update the channel mapping so the digital versions are shown while the stations migrated to SDV are switched to analog.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has mentioned casually to some of the regulars that if CableLabs denies them access to TTG then they plan to release it in a limited form which will allow it to work with OTA and analog channels, but not digital cable channels. This is a less then ideal solution, but it would be better then nothing.
> 
> Dan


It's pretty much useless anyway. TTG and MRV, that is. Especially if you have TW as your cable provider. TW in virtually all markets is imposing a 0x02 copy protection flag on EVERY single channel, thus essentially making TTG and MRV useless.

You're better off buying a Series 2 DT so you can at least do MRV and TTG with the analog channels (or digital with a STB). But with a S3 or TivoHD, 0x02 is the kiss of death when they implement it on every channel. Even if they do properly do 0x00 for the locals, that still buys you what, 5-6 channels at most?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> It's pretty much useless anyway. TTG and MRV, that is. Especially if you have TW as your cable provider. TW in virtually all markets is imposing a 0x02 copy protection flag on EVERY single channel, thus essentially making TTG and MRV useless.


If you literally mean on the OTA channels too, that is an FCC violation, and you should complain.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

m_jonis said:


> It's pretty much useless anyway. TTG and MRV, that is. Especially if you have TW as your cable provider. TW in virtually all markets is imposing a 0x02 copy protection flag on EVERY single channel, thus essentially making TTG and MRV useless.
> 
> You're better off buying a Series 2 DT so you can at least do MRV and TTG with the analog channels (or digital with a STB). But with a S3 or TivoHD, 0x02 is the kiss of death when they implement it on every channel. Even if they do properly do 0x00 for the locals, that still buys you what, 5-6 channels at most?


No problem with Time Warner here. I only use analog cable, though. Not a single show I've ever tried has ever been restricted/protected.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

m_jonis said:


> It's pretty much useless anyway. TTG and MRV, that is. Especially if you have TW as your cable provider. TW in virtually all markets is imposing a 0x02 copy protection flag on EVERY single channel, thus essentially making TTG and MRV useless.


Haven't run into that issue on Time-Warner Southern California.


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> No problem with Time Warner here. I only use analog cable, though. Not a single show I've ever tried has ever been restricted/protected.


AFAIK Time Warner has no means to restrict analog from MRV (however, I'm sure they would if they could). The CCI is only applicable on digital.

TWC Raleigh has marked all digital channels that are not local OTA rebroadcasts as 0x02. So this leaves only analog channels and OTA rebroadcasts as MRV capable. I don't know if they are marking digital simulcast versions of the analog channels as 0x02 because they won't let cable card customers get the digital versions (but that's a whole 'nother thread).

This brings up a question in my mind -- Is TiVo correctly interpreting the CCI byte? Seems like the way that they have interpreted it (i.e. the original recording from the cable stream is the "one generation copy"), it collapses down the "one generation copy" and "copy no further" settings into the same thing. As I read the definitions, it appears to me that "one generation copy permitted" (0x02) was intented to mean you can make one copy of the recording. The "Copy no further" (0x01) was intented to be used once the "one generation copy" had been executed -- that is, the TiVo is supposed to set the "copy no further" flag after it is has been copied once.
Looks to me like we should be able to MRV a 0x02 show at least once.

What am I missing here? Given their interpretation of the CCI byte, how is "one generation copy" any different than "copy no further" ?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TiVolunteer said:


> This brings up a question in my mind -- Is TiVo correctly interpreting the CCI byte?


It isn't an "interpretation" -- it is an implementation. TiVo's implementation is simpler (less expensive to design, implement, test and maintain), and satisfies most of their objectives in that regard, as well as satisfying the law (which is written to protect the copyright holder, not to benefit the user of the content). TiVo chose that implementation rather than spending money on a more comprehensive implementation.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

It seems like someone on this board was trying to talk to some of the engineers at TWC in Raleigh to see if they could do anything about those settings. Did anything ever come of that?


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

mattack said:


> If you literally mean on the OTA channels too, that is an FCC violation, and you should complain.


Yes, OTA channels.

Have complained.

They replied and told me they're "consistent with corporate policy".


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> AFAIK Time Warner has no means to restrict analog from MRV (however, I'm sure they would if they could). The CCI is only applicable on digital.


Sure they do. If you have a cable card, you are bound by the CCI flag.

TW can, is, and does set the flag to 0x02 for analog channels. Not in ALL markets, but if you search here and on the 'net you'll see they do it mostly everywhere.

And they are doing it in Albany, NY

0x02 prohibits me from "transferring" from my S3 to my S2 or TTG.

I've tried and it has a big old red circle through it.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

ncbagwell said:


> It seems like someone on this board was trying to talk to some of the engineers at TWC in Raleigh to see if they could do anything about those settings. Did anything ever come of that?


Yes... I tried. Was told that they were following the requirements of their contracts with program providers. I challenged that but was told that was the way it is and that was that.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> It's pretty much useless anyway. TTG and MRV, that is. Especially if you have TW as your cable provider. TW in virtually all markets is imposing a 0x02 copy protection flag on EVERY single channel, thus essentially making TTG and MRV useless.


No problem with Time Warner in Dallas. Only a few channels are protected.
-- Doug


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> Sure they do. If you have a cable card, you are bound by the CCI flag.
> 
> TW can, is, and does set the flag to 0x02 for analog channels. Not in ALL markets, but if you search here and on the 'net you'll see they do it mostly everywhere.
> 
> ...


Are you sure? I have done a search both here and on the net, and I see no indications of usage of the CCI byte on analog channels. The only posts that I see referring to CCI byte settings on analog channels were made by you. Perhaps you can provide me a link to some other posts. Not trying to be confrontational -- just really didn't find any.

According to TiVo's own webpage, analog copy protection is done via Macrovision (so I stand corrected on that issue). The fields which are the CCI descriptors are listed under the digital section on that page.

When I look at the diagnostics page on all analog channels, the CCI byte shows "N/A" for all analog channels. Are you sure you aren't looking at a digital channel (Analog Digital Simulcast). According to this Time Warner page, they do offer digital simulcast in Albany. However, you could still be getting analog if TWC forces cablecards to analog instead of the simulcast versions (like they do here)


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> Are you sure? I have done a search both here and on the net, and I see no indications of usage of the CCI byte on analog channels. The only posts that I see referring to CCI byte settings on analog channels were made by you. Perhaps you can provide me a link to some other posts. Not trying to be confrontational -- just really didn't find any.
> 
> According to TiVo's own webpage, analog copy protection is done via Macrovision (so I stand corrected on that issue). The fields which are the CCI descriptors are listed under the digital section on that page.
> 
> When I look at the diagnostics page on all analog channels, the CCI byte shows "N/A" for all analog channels. Are you sure you aren't looking at a digital channel (Analog Digital Simulcast). According to this Time Warner page, they do offer digital simulcast in Albany. However, you could still be getting analog if TWC forces cablecards to analog instead of the simulcast versions (like they do here)


Tivo's website doesn't reference the cable card scenario in regards to Macrovision. I believe the macrovision is adhered to by the Series 2 as well as the S3/HD and I believe there have been cases of this flag being sent and affected Series 2 units as well. Anyway, I have an M-stream card and have tuned to every single channel and gone into the diagnostics menu on the Tivo and it clearly shows the CCI byte ax 0x02. These are not digital simulcast channels. There's "three" sets of the local stations here.

Analog:
6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15

digital (non-HD) of the above (sorry, don't know the channel numbers off the top of my head)

digital HD locals:
1806, 1807, 1810, 1811, 1813, and 1815

In NYC TW is CCI byting all the channels EXCEPT the locals. You cannot even use a regular TV in NYC to get channels. You need a STB. (but that's supposedly to prevent pirating of cable service).

Now, are they SUPPOSED to be doing this? No. At least legally they cannot do this for any local broadcast channels for which they have a retransmission agreement. Can they implement the CCI byte for all other channels (including analogs)? Yes. Are they doing it? Yes

I think someone mentioned they've got the same thing in North Carolina, but after complaining, they changed it. Someone else had posted a spreadsheet that listed all the channels and the CCI byte and they were pretty much all set to 0x02 as well.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Tivo's website doesn't reference the cable card scenario in regards to Macrovision. I believe the macrovision is adhered to by the Series 2 as well as the S3/HD and I believe there have been cases of this flag being sent and affected Series 2 units as well. Anyway, I have an M-stream card and have tuned to every single channel and gone into the diagnostics menu on the Tivo and it clearly shows the CCI byte ax 0x02. These are not digital simulcast channels. There's "three" sets of the local stations here.
> 
> Analog:
> 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15
> ...


When you are tuned to an analog channel ... the diagnostics output for that tuner should indicate CCI Flag = N/A as well as Modulation = Analog. If you are seeing something else... its not analog (at least based on the behavior of my S3 and my understanding of how this works)..

Now one thing i HAVE seen is that channels that I KNOW are analog  (at least when I watch them) occasionally show up with a protected recording. Looking at those recordings... they dont show a quality indication and are much smaller than other recordings from the same channel which screams that they were DIGITAL. I am assuming that a cablecard update is occuring and the cablecard is mapping that to the digital simulcast channel at the time of the recording. Perhaps TWC's base mapping indicates digital simulcast and then they later override it or something. Strange.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> When you are tuned to an analog channel ... the diagnostics output for that tuner should indicate CCI Flag = N/A as well as Modulation = Analog. If you are seeing something else... its not analog (at least based on the behavior of my S3 and my understanding of how this works)..
> 
> Now one thing i HAVE seen is that channels that I KNOW are analog  (at least when I watch them) occasionally show up with a protected recording. Looking at those recordings... they dont show a quality indication and are much smaller than other recordings from the same channel which screams that they were DIGITAL. I am assuming that a cablecard update is occuring and the cablecard is mapping that to the digital simulcast channel at the time of the recording. Perhaps TWC's base mapping indicates digital simulcast and then they later override it or something. Strange.


I'll try that out. I say they're analog because supposedly channels 2-78 or something are "analog". Meaning you can hook up the cable line directly to a TV or a Series1/Series2 Tivo and receive those channels. However, the TivoHD (maybe the S3 is different?) shows CCI byte = 0x02. I also have an M-stream card as well. But I'll see what the Modulation shows.


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## flynndt (Jan 17, 2008)

I have TWC out of Newburgh NY and I've recently upgraded to S3 and had everything except 2 networks flagged. With my S2 nothing had ever been flagged. I had to go to the level of a supervisor at TW, but after 2 weeks the CCI bytes were changed from 0x02 to 0x00 on all the channels under 26 (which includes the 4 major networks) and the 4 networks in HD. The only channel I like that can I still transfer to PC or MRV is Discovery, which has me furious. On other posts I've seen suggestions that people with this problem complain to the local franchise authority or file an FCC complaint. I've seen posted that broadcast channels shouldn't be flagged, but what exactly are broadcast channels? Is it everything that's not premium (like HBO, Showtime, etc and PPV)? On a Tivo help forum post (http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=10359832) there may be a loophole that I'm pursuing Monday. If you follow the posts to Feb there's a reply about a series of broadcasts called Cable in the Classroom (www.ciconline.org/home), and on the website it specifically states the shows are copyright free for a certain time period (1 to 3 yrs). They are broadcast almost every day on History, Nat'l Geopgraphic, I even saw a show scheluded for HBO Family this weekend. I don't think the cable companies can legally block channels which air these shows. I did speak to the TW supervisor last week about these shows, as I use them often, and she told me I CAN copy them - once to my Tivo. That is not flagging it as copyright free, as it should be. I also agree that putting a show on a device where it can't be taken off is not a copy. My Tivo is a way to make a copy (like a VCR), not a copy. It has limited storage and is not effectively portable. Just my thoughts.


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> Tivo's website doesn't reference the cable card scenario in regards to Macrovision. I believe the macrovision is adhered to by the Series 2 as well as the S3/HD and I believe there have been cases of this flag being sent and affected Series 2 units as well.


I only referenced the Macrovision discussion to correct my previous post saying that I didn't know of anyway that the analog signal could be copy protected by TWC -- the Macrovision setting is clearly a way that could be used and the TiVo would correctly respond to it (but don't tell TWC.  )



m_jonis said:


> Someone else had posted a spreadsheet that listed all the channels and the CCI byte and they were pretty much all set to 0x02 as well.


The only "spreadsheet" I was able to find was this one which clearly says "analog not used". If you have other examples, please post a link. I'm only finding posts from you which claim analog is restricted using the CCI flag.



SCSIRAID said:


> When you are tuned to an analog channel ... the diagnostics output for that tuner should indicate CCI Flag = N/A as well as Modulation = Analog. If you are seeing something else... its not analog (at least based on the behavior of my S3 and my understanding of how this works)..


Agree with SCSI -- I'll bet you see QAM on the modulation instead of analog.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I believe that TW is only required to pass on the CP flag from the content provider, but they are able to increase the protection to 0x02. If they are doing so, I would suggest contacting the local Franchise Authority and see if they can intercede on your behalf.


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## flynndt (Jan 17, 2008)

Just looked at the modulation settings on my TWC channels (using an S3 that has M cards) - it's set to QAC-256 for every channel I checked and flags are all either 0x00 or 0x02 as follows:

Channels 1 - 14 are 0x00
Channel 15 (Discovery) is 0x02
Channels 16 - 24 are 0x00
Channel 25 and higher (except the 4 major networks in HD) are 0x02

I actually had Discovery when I checked a couple days ago and now today it's flagged.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> I only referenced the Macrovision discussion to correct my previous post saying that I didn't know of anyway that the analog signal could be copy protected by TWC -- the Macrovision setting is clearly a way that could be used and the TiVo would correctly respond to it (but don't tell TWC.  )
> 
> The only "spreadsheet" I was able to find was this one which clearly says "analog not used". If you have other examples, please post a link. I'm only finding posts from you which claim analog is restricted using the CCI flag.
> 
> Agree with SCSI -- I'll bet you see QAM on the modulation instead of analog.


Well, you have someone else posting here that a few days ago, all but 2 channels were 0x02 (granted, Newburgh, NY, but that's a diff. TW office than Albany).

It appears that you and I are treating the word "analog" differently. I am referring to analog channels as designated by TW Albany's channel lineup. You are referring to analog as those channels that are transmitted via NTSC as opposed to "analog" channels transmitted via QAM. I believe QAM by its nature is "digital" as opposed to NTSC being "analog".

At least when I use my MythTV box with a QAM tuner, I can only get the digital local HD stations from TW (and their digital SD counterparts). I am not able to receive channels 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15 or any channel other than the digital QAM range. (ie, can't get any channel that TW has designated as "analog" in their lineup such as: channel 20, or 7, or 23, etc.) As those are broadcast via NTSC (at least according to the MythTV folks with the video card I was using).

Although I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the minute a cable card is plugged into the Tivo, it'll show QAM and not NTSC (especially with a single M-card). But I could be wrong on that. Plus, SCSI RAID is using an S3. I seem to remember something about the asymmetrical processing with the S3, but I'm not sure if that's what it was referring to. I don't know if the TivoHD has the same issue, although there's no way I can test "plain cable" since the M-card uses both tuners. If I remove the M-card I believe I'll have to re-run a guided setup as well.

But I'll have to run the diagnostics tomorrow morning. Time for bed now.


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> Well, you have someone else posting here that a few days ago, all but 2 channels were 0x02 (granted, Newburgh, NY, but that's a diff. TW office than Albany).


That same poster says that everything is at QAM-256 which means TW Newburgh is getting digital simulcast versions of those channels.



m_jonis said:


> It appears that you and I are treating the word "analog" differently. I am referring to analog channels as designated by TW Albany's channel lineup. You are referring to analog as those channels that are transmitted via NTSC as opposed to "analog" channels transmitted via QAM. I believe QAM by its nature is "digital" as opposed to NTSC being "analog".


I am referring to the modulation that the TiVo is seeing for that particular channel regardless of what TWC might be calling it in their channel lineup.



m_jonis said:


> Although I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the minute a cable card is plugged into the Tivo, it'll show QAM and not NTSC (especially with a single M-card). But I could be wrong on that.


Yes, are are incorrect on that. I have S3's and a TiVoHD all with CableCards. All of them receive both analog (channels 1-99) and QAM (everything else). The only situation which matches your scenario is if your cable company is doing analog/digital simulcast and they have set their channel mapping to the digital channels. Then you'll see it switch when you insert the Cable Card.



m_jonis said:


> although there's no way I can test "plain cable" since the M-card uses both tuners. If I remove the M-card I believe I'll have to re-run a guided setup as well.
> 
> But I'll have to run the diagnostics tomorrow morning. Time for bed now.


I agree -- No need to pull your M-Card. Not worth it for this conversation. The diagnostics page will tell you everything -- just look for the MODULATION field. Have a good evening.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> That same poster says that everything is at QAM-256 which means TW Newburgh is getting digital simulcast versions of those channels.
> 
> I am referring to the modulation that the TiVo is seeing for that particular channel regardless of what TWC might be calling it in their channel lineup.
> 
> ...


In regards to your S3 and TivoHD. You have Mstream cards in them? The S3 will be a bit diff.

My GUESS (and this is only a guess):

A TivoHD with a M-card basically disables the NTSC tuners, since at that point, both will be paired to the M-card.

A TivoHD with one S-card would probably show "stuff" as NTSC because the other tuner can actually be active.

An S3 with an M-card only functions as an S-card (currently it's incapable of actually using both streams).

I guess the only "way" to find out for sure is to:

a) Use a TivoHD or S3 with TWO S-cards and see if it shows stuff as NTSC
and
b) Find others outside of NY with the above setup to see what TW is doing for the "analog" channels.

Now, I'm not aware that TW in Albany has any "pure" analog stations. And by that I mean:

If you look at their entire channel lineup, every "analog" station also has a "digital" counterpart.

Is it possible this too, is also part of the issue?

But without querying other TW customers (apparently Newburgh is the same way), I guess we won't know.

Just a theory on my part.

But I did check every "analog" channel and they all show QAM-256 with an M-card in a TivoHD.

However, only about 5 of the "analog" stations are what I would call digital simulcast (TW apparently calls Digital Simulcast, SDV channels). But I don't know if the terminology they're using is correct.

I interpreted digital simulcast to mean that you had two of the same stations (ie, Disney Channel) broadcast as both "analog" and "digital", but the channel mapping only really sent like one "channel". (ie, tune to channel 34 and it really points to the digital version which is 110). Or vice versa.

I'm basing this on a post from another TW Albany customer who lost channels with an S-card on a TV.

They either get the digital versions, or the analog versions, but not both. The few channels that are SDV they get neither analog nor digital.
Supposedly it's because TW Head-end has setup the channels as "digital" simulcast (vs. analog simulcast?)

The rest of us with cable cards (regardless of type or whether with Tivo) cannot receive the "analog" stations whose digital counterpart is SDV.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> In regards to your S3 and TivoHD. You have Mstream cards in them? The S3 will be a bit diff.
> 
> My GUESS (and this is only a guess):
> 
> ...


Digital Simulcast is totally different than SDV. Digital Simulcast means that the 'analog tier' channels (which are receivable via typical NTSC TV's) also have a QAM Digital copy of the content which are receivable via a QAM tuner. This lets cable compete with SAT's claim of 100% Ditigal. The Digital Simulcast copies are typically encrypted and require either a cablebox or cablecard in order to view them. When digital simulcast made its debut a year or so ago, it still had these QAM copies as fixed liner content. SDV can come into play and let these QAM copies be allocated as required just as it can with the 'digital tier' channels and save some bandwidth.

Without a cablecard, channels <100 are assumed to be 'fixed' frequencies. WIth a cablecard, channel mapping is provided BY the cablecard. This channel mapping overrides the fixed mapping and the channel numbers become 'virtual'. I.E. without a cablecard, channel 42 is 331.250Mhz and it will be that very same frequency on every TV or TiVo without cablecard. With a cablecard, channel 42 becomes virtual.... if the cableco doesnt allow cablecards to access digital simulcast (like here in Raleigh) the mapping will be to 331.250 Mhz with modulation type ANALOG. Here in Raleigh, if you go to a cable box, you will find that channel 42 maps to 765 Mhz PID 001 with modulation type QAM.

Its all about the remapping done by the cablecard.

You said....
But I did check every "analog" channel and they all show QAM-256 with an M-card in a TivoHD.

It would be more accurate and less confusing if you changed the word "analog" to "analog tier" since these channels are being received by you as digital. Your cableco gives you access to the Digital Simulcast where mine does not (you lucky dog).


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> Digital Simulcast is totally different than SDV. Digital Simulcast means that the 'analog tier' channels (which are receivable via typical NTSC TV's) also have a QAM Digital copy of the content which are receivable via a QAM tuner. This lets cable compete with SAT's claim of 100% Ditigal. The Digital Simulcast copies are typically encrypted and require either a cablebox or cablecard in order to view them. When digital simulcast made its debut a year or so ago, it still had these QAM copies as fixed liner content. SDV can come into play and let these QAM copies be allocated as required just as it can with the 'digital tier' channels and save some bandwidth.
> 
> Without a cablecard, channels <100 are assumed to be 'fixed' frequencies. WIth a cablecard, channel mapping is provided BY the cablecard. This channel mapping overrides the fixed mapping and the channel numbers become 'virtual'. I.E. without a cablecard, channel 42 is 331.250Mhz and it will be that very same frequency on every TV or TiVo without cablecard. With a cablecard, channel 42 becomes virtual.... if the cableco doesnt allow cablecards to access digital simulcast (like here in Raleigh) the mapping will be to 331.250 Mhz with modulation type ANALOG. Here in Raleigh, if you go to a cable box, you will find that channel 42 maps to 765 Mhz PID 001 with modulation type QAM.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I wouldn't count it so lucky as ever since TW did that change to "digital simulcast" about 5 weeks ago, we lost 40 channels that we can longer receive on cable card.

Until TW gets its act together and allows the cable card to receive the actual analog frequencies.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Thanks for the info. I wouldn't count it so lucky as ever since TW did that change to "digital simulcast" about 5 weeks ago, we lost 40 channels that we can longer receive on cable card.
> 
> Until TW gets its act together and allows the cable card to receive the actual analog frequencies.


Sounds like they may have changed to Digital Simulcast and SDV at the same time... OR they just have their cablecard channel mapping all messed up. What leads you to conclude they have enabled SDV?


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

m_jonis said:


> In regards to your S3 and TivoHD. You have Mstream cards in them? The S3 will be a bit diff.
> 
> My GUESS (and this is only a guess):
> 
> A TivoHD with a M-card basically disables the NTSC tuners, since at that point, both will be paired to the M-card.


My S3's and my TiVoHD have S-Cards (2 each) in them. You are incorrect about the TiVoHD with an M-Card -- it doesn't disable anything. It is strictly a function of the channel map that TWC sends the card.



m_jonis said:


> a) Use a TivoHD or S3 with TWO S-cards and see if it shows stuff as NTSC
> and
> b) Find others outside of NY with the above setup to see what TW is doing for the "analog" channels.


You have described my set up (TW, outside NY, TWO S-cards) -- and we are getting analog for all channels 1-99



m_jonis said:


> But I did check every "analog" channel and they all show QAM-256 with an M-card in a TivoHD.


As predicted. Just means that, as SCSI says, your TWC provides you with the digital version of those channels. Back to the original question, that is how they are setting the CCI bits for those channels.

As for losing those 40 channels, it sounds to me like they moved them to SDV. Until the Tuning Resolver comes out, your situation is one that we all fear. Your situation is EXACTLY the scenario that the Time Warner Regional VP of Engineering told me they were trying to avoid. That is why they have kept us on "true analog" instead of giving us the digital mapping.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> Sounds like they may have changed to Digital Simulcast and SDV at the same time... OR they just have their cablecard channel mapping all messed up. What leads you to conclude they have enabled SDV?


Because they sent out a letter stating the 18 new HD channels they added are SDV.

We also got a list from them about which (about 97 channels now) are SDV as well.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

TiVolunteer said:


> My S3's and my TiVoHD have S-Cards (2 each) in them. You are incorrect about the TiVoHD with an M-Card -- it doesn't disable anything. It is strictly a function of the channel map that TWC sends the card.
> 
> You have described my set up (TW, outside NY, TWO S-cards) -- and we are getting analog for all channels 1-99
> 
> ...


Yes, that about sums it up.

Thanks for assisting. It's nice to know now that those of us with cable card are stuck at digital simulcast only now.

Although I think they're still violating FCC regs by setting the digital (non HD) locals to 0x02, since they are local broadcast stations and they do have a retransmission agreement with those stations.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Because they sent out a letter stating the 18 new HD channels they added are SDV.
> 
> We also got a list from them about which (about 97 channels now) are SDV as well.


Sounds like a good conclusion!!!!!


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

SCSIRAID said:


> Yes... I tried. Was told that they were following the requirements of their contracts with program providers. I challenged that but was told that was the way it is and that was that.


Yikes. Well, that just plain sucks. Thanks for trying SCSIRAID.

I don't suppose those contracts are public information, are they? Would be interested to see if it really addressed it or if TWC is using that as a crutch.

I can't imagine that each local Time Warner franchise would have seperate contracts from the ones in other cities. It's got to be a corporate wide thing. So, somebody is wrong here. Either other cities aren't setting the flags properly or Raleigh is over-doing it.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

ncbagwell said:


> Yikes. Well, that just plain sucks. Thanks for trying SCSIRAID.
> 
> I don't suppose those contracts are public information, are they? Would be interested to see if it really addressed it or if TWC is using that as a crutch.
> 
> I can't imagine that each local Time Warner franchise would have seperate contracts from the ones in other cities. It's got to be a corporate wide thing. So, somebody is wrong here. Either other cities aren't setting the flags properly or Raleigh is over-doing it.


I think they were BSing me.... Its probably a 'policy' they have chosen and dont want to even consider anything else no matter what.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> I think they were BSing me.... Its probably a 'policy' they have chosen and dont want to even consider anything else no matter what.


I can almost guarantee that.

I seem to remember seeing something either here or on AVS or somewhere where someone actually got email confirmation from HGTV or Food or something stating that they were NOT instructing TW to implement copyright restrictions.

Not sure what legal good it would do unless you had lots of money or got a lawyer for a class action lawsuit.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

DougJohnson said:


> No problem with Time Warner in Dallas. Only a few channels are protected.
> -- Doug


Are you joking? Nearly every digital and HD channel is now 0x02 in DFW, except the locals.

Here's a quick list on my Tivo:

All protected:

hdnet, hdnet movies, national geographic, hd theater, science channel, discovery health, history international, universal hd

Unprotected:

tnthd, mtv (analog), oxygen (analog), tcm (analog), history (analog), speed (analog), usa (analog), discovery (analog)

The only programs I can MRV or TTG come from analogs, locals, and tnthd. TWC is going crazy with the copy protection.

TTYL
David


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

DaveDFW said:


> Are you joking? Nearly every digital and HD channel is now 0x02 in DFW, except the locals.
> 
> Here's a quick list on my Tivo:
> 
> ...


File a complaint with the FCC. Maybe if enough of us do they'll do something (ha).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

That complaint really needs to be directed at your Members of Congress, not the FCC. The laws and the regulations explicitly permit what Dave is experiencing, therefore you can conclude that that permission is deliberate. So what is necessary, to make things change, is to convince your Members of Congress to sponsor legislation to change the law, or to apply pressure on regulators to change regulations, to satisfy your preferences in regard to this issue. 

Good luck.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I guess my point is that the FCC regulation seems to indicate that it's up to the copyright holder (NOT TW) to set the copyright restriction flag. So I would argue that unless TW has "proof" that the copyright holder is, indeed requesting is (ala, HBO or SHO) that possibly the FCC can change/enforce something.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

bicker said:


> That complaint really needs to be directed at your Members of Congress, not the FCC. The laws and the regulations explicitly permit what Dave is experiencing, therefore you can conclude that that permission is deliberate.


I know that what they're doing probably is legal, but that doesn't mean that it's not also really annoying and absolutely ineffective in protecting copyrights.

Do they really think I'm going to burn DVDs of "Seconds from Disaster" (one show that is always "protected"), and make a fortune selling black-market copies? Am I going to flood the peer sharing networks with my precious illicit booty?

All I want to do is perhaps watch it in a different room than it was recorded.

But dealing with the first-line TWC support is infuriating. I brought up the blanket use of 0x02, and was given a separate phone number to call, for my special issue. The phone number sent me to Roadrunner internet support. This kind of ineptitude is exactly what I expect from TWC.

How hard is it to actually talk to someone at TWC who knows their product?

TTYL
David


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> I guess my point is that the FCC regulation seems to indicate that it's up to the copyright holder (NOT TW) to set the copyright restriction flag.


However, that is not the case. The regulations allow for either to call for the application of the copyright flag, on their own volition.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think, sometimes, some folks forget how they "pay" for the programming they watch on most channels. Your cable fee provides you access, but not much more. Essentially, you pay for the programming you watch by watching commercials, commercials that are timely (not from six months ago when you recorded the program onto DVD or moved it to a central server using TiVo Desktop). Therefore, a service provider has the legal right if they so choose, and perhaps the motivation if they decide to, to take steps to ensure that each time you watch a show you "pay" *that *price for doing so. They cannot close the door completely; you could just leave the program on your DVR for all time. However, if you choose not to do that, you open yourself up to them applying the controls they have available to them, to foster their objectives as I've outlined them.

And for those channels where your fee is paying for both access and the programming, the motivation is even higher for the service provider and network, to ensure that you are motivated to pay their price for the program each time you wish to watch it, according to the same limitations.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I still don&#8217;t understand why the cable middle man would want to get involved. By deciding what to set as copy protected and what not to set they accept liability. Apparently they can set their headend to just pass on whatever signal the original source has encoded so if HGTV (or whoever) set it that way then it would come across that way. If not then it wouldn&#8217;t. 

From a liability standpoint, I&#8217;d leave it up to the content owners and just pass their flags.

In certain circumstances right now the cable company&#8217;s are violating the intent of the program providers. Cable in the classroom is a great example.

My cable company marks EVERY digital channel except locals as 0x02. Which makes any cable in the classroom program on a digital channel worthless for a teacher with a tivo to actually offload and bring it to their school to show their students. I thought this was basically just an SD issue but the other day my wife taped an HD special about Barock Obama on AEHD (or maybe biography HD). It had some sort of cable in the classroom type exemption screen broadcast at the beginning that you could tape and disseminate it to a degree. It&#8217;s pretty annoying of my local cable provider to block that ability. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s illegal or against any regulations but it sure seems immoral for the local cable provider to block the ability to disseminate information about a person who has 1 one in 3 chance of being the next president.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I still dont understand why the cable middle man would want to get involved.
> ...
> 
> From a liability standpoint, Id leave it up to the content owners and just pass their flags.


They get involved because they are required by law and by the contracts they signed with the content providers.

They are leaving it up to the providers ...the providers are saying, "please permanently set the flag as 0x02 for every single show, just in case we missed one on our end."

It will be interesting to see if FIOS does any better. Their HD MRV is scheduled to be released sometime this year.

Welcome to the digital age. Guilty until proven innocent...who are we kidding? You're all guilty content-stealing scum! Especially the kids!!!


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## TiVolunteer (Jul 10, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> They are leaving it up to the providers ...the providers are saying, "please permanently set the flag as 0x02 for every single show, just in case we missed one on our end."


What you are saying may be true for some of the content providers, but not true for all of them. And Time Warner seems to be ignoring the ones that DON'T want 0x02 on their channels.

For instance, Mark Cuban (owner of HDNet and HDNet Movies) has made his position very clear on DRM  and has stated that HDNet and HDNet Movies should not be set to 0x02 (link1),

ZP: Your thoughts on D.R.M, consumers hate it. Companies love it.
Do you believe consumers have the right to do what they wish with
products they have legally purchased?

Mark: They can do whatever they please with it. We don't put DRM on any HDNet
content at all. It's a waste of time and money. 
reference link .​
Yet, TWC marks them as 0x02 along with everything else.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

bicker said:


> I think, sometimes, some folks forget how they "pay" for the programming they watch on most channels. Your cable fee provides you access, but not much more. Essentially, you pay for the programming you watch by watching commercials, commercials that are timely (not from six months ago when you recorded the program onto DVD or moved it to a central server using TiVo Desktop). Therefore, a service provider has the legal right if they so choose, and perhaps the motivation if they decide to, to take steps to ensure that each time you watch a show you "pay" *that *price for doing so. They cannot close the door completely; you could just leave the program on your DVR for all time. However, if you choose not to do that, you open yourself up to them applying the controls they have available to them, to foster their objectives as I've outlined them.
> 
> And for those channels where your fee is paying for both access and the programming, the motivation is even higher for the service provider and network, to ensure that you are motivated to pay their price for the program each time you wish to watch it, according to the same limitations.


I don't completely buy this argument. There have been reports here of some cable companies even setting CCI=0x03 flags accidently on some non-PPV/VOD channels. While of course that affects Tivo users, with their own DVR there are apparently no time restrictions for recordings on such channels. If/when they roll out their own multi room solution I would bet there will be no compliance/restrictions related to CCI flags for moving content around. Finally there have been reported cases of blanket CCI=0x02 settings which were able to get reversed because the cable company was inadvertently setting the flags. I chalk it up to ignorance/incompetence for most cases like that, not a deliberate attempt to impose restrictions on users.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

These are all of the Cable Networks that provide programming for Cable in the Classroom:

http://www.ciconline.org/networks

A&E 
ABC FAMILY 
ACCU WEATHER 
AFRICA CHANNEL 
AMC 
AMERICAN LIFE TV NETWORK 
ANIMAL PLANET 
BET 
BIOGRAPHY 
BLUE HIGHWAYS 
BRAVO 
C-SPAN CLASSROOM 
CNBC 
CNN STUDENT NEWS 
DISCOVERY COMMUNICATIONS, INC. 
DISCOVERY HEALTH 
DISNEY CHANNEL 
ESPN 
ESPN CLASSIC 
ESPN2 
FOOD NETWORK 
FOX SPORTS NET 
G4TV 
GAME SHOW NETWORK 
HALLMARK CHANNEL 
HBO 
HISTORY CHANNEL 
HISTORY INTERNATIONAL 
HITN-TV 
HOME & GARDEN (HGTV) 
LIFETIME ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES 
MSNBC 
MTV 
MUN2 
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL 
NICKELODEON 
NOGGIN/THE-N 
OVATION 
OXYGEN 
PENTAGON CHANNEL 
SCIFI CHANNEL 
SHOWTIME 
SI TV 
SPORTSMAN CHANNEL 
STARZ KIDS & FAMILY 
THE LEARNING CHANNEL 
THE WEATHER CHANNEL 
TRAVEL CHANNEL 
TRUTV 
TV ONE 
USA NETWORK 
VH1 
WOMENS ENTERTAINMENT

Nearly every one of these is set to 0x02 in the Raleigh, NC market.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

And here is the contact information listed for Time Warner Cable (I am guessing this is a TWC corporate contact):

http://www.ciconline.org/cablecompanies

TIME WARNER CABLE
290 Harbor Drive
Stamford, CT 06902
http://www.timewarnercable.com

Contact:
Bonnie Hathaway
VP, Public Affairs
One Time Warner Center
North Tower, 17th Floor, #339
New York, NY 10019
212.364.8204 (phone)
212.364.8252 (fax)
[email protected]

Education Initiatives:
Time Warner Cable is a local business with a commitment to serve the communities where we operate. That commitment is clearly seen in our efforts to support teachers by providing cable and high-speed Internet connections to schools at no charge, by conducting workshops to help teachers better utilize these free resources and to recognize the work of teachers who use those resources to create exciting and impactful learning experiences for their students.

Featured Initiatives:
Annual national educational initiatives include Time Warner Cable's National Teacher Awards and "The Common Good" competition sponsored by Time Warner Cable and C-SPAN to promote the importance of public service.

URL for Education Resources: http://www.timewarnercable.com/corporate/aboutus/education.html


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> They get involved because they are required by law and by the contracts they signed with the content providers.
> 
> They are leaving it up to the providers ...the providers are saying, "please permanently set the flag as 0x02 for every single show, just in case we missed one on our end."
> 
> ...


the content providers can set the flags from the original point and then every system downstream would have the intended flag.

anectdotal evidence shows that there is no such thing occuring since it varies by company and even by system.

since it varies by system on the same company it seems clear it is not contract based either.

my humble opinion is some head end engineer at the "bad" systems thinks he's doing the right thing and setting it.

do you seriously think the networks that back cable in the classroom intend to defeat the whole purpose of cable in the classroom ? Why even have it?


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

bicker said:


> However, that is not the case. The regulations allow for either to call for the application of the copyright flag, on their own volition.


Thanks.

Although I think they can't set them on local broadcasts, and I'm not sure about "cable in the classroom".

Plus I wonder what if the actual content provider (ie, HDNET) states explicitly to NOT use it?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

m_jonis said:


> Although I think they can't set them on local broadcasts,


That's correct.



m_jonis said:


> and I'm not sure about "cable in the classroom".


There is nothing specific.



m_jonis said:


> Plus I wonder what if the actual content provider (ie, HDNET) states explicitly to NOT use it?


They would have to say so in the contract.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> the content providers can set the flags from the original point and then every system downstream would have the intended flag.
> 
> anectdotal evidence shows that there is no such thing occuring since it varies by company and even by system.
> 
> ...


It's easier for them to control it at a few points than it is to tell 1,000 different shows to set it on their end. I bet you some of these channels don't even have the expertise to set it on their end.

As far as discrepancies throughout the country, there are different contracts for each system. Also, the head end engineer could be doing something bad by NOT setting it, too. Or he could be doing something lazy if the majority of channels request it and he doesn't want to bother sorting through the mess. If you think he is in error, challenge him on it. IMHO, I think it's new territory so there are plenty of screw-ups. But this is the future.

HBO and Cinemax are part of in cable in the classroom? I know they want it set to 0x02 for home users. Does the school get a special Cablecard or special rights set on their CableCard so that HBO isn't protected? Then it would work as long as the show was recorded at the school. A teacher shouldn't be transferring a show from his house to the school (or vice-versa). That's a no-no.

As far as cable in the classroom, yes, I think that will eventually stop. Students have to learn what bad citizens they and their teachers are for trying to copy any material for any reason. Even though all of this protection is pointless. Tell them to just get Netflix instead.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> It's easier for them to control it at a few points than it is to tell 1,000 different shows to set it on their end. I bet you some of these channels don't even have the expertise to set it on their end.
> 
> As far as discrepancies throughout the country, there are different contracts for each system. Also, the head end engineer could be doing something bad by NOT setting it, too. Or he could be doing something lazy if the majority of channels request it and he doesn't want to bother sorting through the mess. If you think he is in error, challenge him on it. IMHO, I think it's new territory so there are plenty of screw-ups. But this is the future.
> ...


by that logic (and I completely agree)-
it is much easier for the couple hundred cable CHANNELS ran but just a score of company's to set the flags on their end then disseminating that info to tens of thousands of head ends and hope the engineers there set it correctly. There is no reason HBO couldn't stick the flag in the stream before they uplink it in the first place. Since that is NOT happening with even one channel it seems clear the channels and have no such blanket stipulations in theri contracts with providers. WHy would they even leave such a thing to a contract when they can set the bits on their end and be done with it. One HBO engineer setting the bit for their 15 channels instead of thousands of head end engineers having to have the expertise to do it right acrross tens or maybe hundred of thousands of instances.



BobCamp1 said:


> ...
> HBO and Cinemax are part of in cable in the classroom? I know they want it set to 0x02 for home users. Does the school get a special Cablecard or special rights set on their CableCard so that HBO isn't protected? Then it would work as long as the show was recorded at the school. A teacher shouldn't be transferring a show from his house to the school (or vice-versa). That's a no-no.
> 
> As far as cable in the classroom, yes, I think that will eventually stop. Students have to learn what bad citizens they and their teachers are for trying to copy any material for any reason. Even though all of this protection is pointless. Tell them to just get Netflix instead.


HBO and all are not part of cable in the calssrooom but if you read above there are scores of channels that are (usually like discovery and A&E and the other "learning" type channels) and they frequenctly get the 0x02 treatment from some over zealoous engineer at the headend (so obviously there arent contracts from all those channels telling them to do it).

I think there is no such thing as a magic cable card to defeat the whole system. If such a thing existed or was even possible they would be availioble on ebay by now.

I also dont think you will see cable in the classroom stop. (I think you are kidding)- because I think its either required as part of some cable public service requirement- or a response by cable to a threat of a mandated public service requirement. So if they stop it then the FCC might force something on ALL the cable channels.


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