# Can we talk about Tivo Picture Qaulity



## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

I'm starting this thread to try to get the attention of Tivo_Ted and anyone else at Tivo that can help with this. I feel like Tivo owners are probably likely to be AV enthusiasts that care greatly about things such as Picture quality.

First with Hydra there are still issues with the Native video output, it simply just does not work consistently, this worked under the old UI, it should be a simple fix to make it work the same. An even bigger annoyance to me though is that when selecting the 1080p 24/30 pass through output for apps like Netflix and others, it will make the 1080i OTA or cable channels output at 1080p 30. These should stay at 1080i 60, or output at 1080p 60 if you have the 1080p mode selected. This is how it works under the old UI. There is a noticeable drop off in quality when it changes the output to 1080p 30, everything looks like it has some weird edge enhancement turned on. Even the menus look bad and the system information screen will actually report 480p mode.

Second issue, even when things are working correctly and the Tivo is sending the correct resolution, it is downgrading the picture quality slightly compared to other sources. This affects both Hydra and the old interface and probably every model since the Roamio that I can tell from my testing. I've seen this personally on the Roamio, Roamio OTA, Tivo Mini Gen2 and Mini Vox. They all behave the same which makes me believe it has to be a software issue. The picture quality downgrade is not huge, but it is definitely noticeable if you have a big enough TV that is properly calibrated. It is not as noticeable on my 65" Plasma TV but the difference in quality is much greater when I compare devices on my 120" projection screen. The easiest way to see it is comparing a high quality source like Netflix between the Tivo and another device and playing the same video and switching back and forth. At the same resolution, the Tivo, no matter what model looks worse each time in that comparison. There is slightly less detail overall and things look very flat like the video is slightly blurred and dark areas seem to have more noise, the color doesnt' seem to pop quite as much as well. I've even went as far as pulling an OTA HD recording off of my Tivo with KMTTG and then playing back the very same recording via Kodi on my Fire TV. The Fire TV hands down looks better. The quality difference is probably not enough of a difference for most people to notice or complain but if you care about video quality and getting the most of our your HDTV or UHD TV you will want this fixed. You might think you are getting the best image possible now but you are not. There have been posts about this in the past but it doesn't look like it went anywhere. Here are just a few threads.

Soft Picture Quality even with video passthrough enabled

Very soft picture quality on TiVo Bolt

Picture Quality not that great with Tivo Bolt

Anyone else seeing the same thing and want this fixed? I have a feeling I'll be moving back to DirecTV eventually if its not eventually addressed, especially when I make the jump to upgrade my TV's and projector to 4K.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

On your first item, I noticed in January. Comcast/Xfinity and or channels broadcasting in 720p not 1080i, best way to upscale with PC..?

As for PQ, my cable feed is moving channels around and adding more stuff to the mux. Quality is bad from the source.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> On your first item, I noticed in January. Comcast/Xfinity and or channels broadcasting in 720p not 1080i, best way to upscale with PC..?
> 
> As for PQ, my cable feed is moving channels around and adding more stuff to the mux. Quality is bad from the source.


I've found the downgrade in quality that the Tivo is displaying for OTA stations to be much harder to spot than a 1080P video from Netflix or Amazon simply because most OTA stations are squeezing their bitrate these days with all the sub channels anyway. But I was able to test that by pulling a recording with KMTTG and playing it back with the FireTV and see it there as well. I think its definitely downgrading the picture slightly on any source unfortunately.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

BBHughes said:


> I've found the downgrade in quality that the Tivo is displaying for OTA stations to be much harder to spot than a 1080P video from Netflix or Amazon simply because most OTA stations are squeezing their bitrate these days with all the sub channels anyway. But I was able to test that by pulling a recording with KMTTG and playing it back with the FireTV and see it there as well. I think its definitely downgrading the picture slightly on any source unfortunately.


I understand. My "go to" test is to play the trailer from the movie "Fury" on Amazon. If it looks good (1080/p24) and has DD+, it passes. Outdoor clips make the best test since they are usually very "busy". A few years ago, when Colbert took over The Late Show, the picture was fantastic. My CBS feed had no sub-channels and it was sending at over 16Mbps. Those were the good old days.


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> On your first item, I noticed in January. Comcast/Xfinity and or channels broadcasting in 720p not 1080i, best way to upscale with PC..?
> 
> As for PQ, my cable feed is moving channels around and adding more stuff to the mux. Quality is bad from the source.


I've noticed the difference in picture quality that you speak of. I've discussed it in other threads as well and since it is hard to notice, most people think I'm crazy. Regardless of content, playing that same content (Netflix, Amazon, a recorded show from kmttg) on a different device (ps4, Roku, shield, etc) yields a sharper, clearer picture. I've always thought that the picture coming from any of my TiVo boxes had an ever so slight haze that softened the picture just enough to be noticeable. The higher the resolution of the display that you're using, the easier it is to notice what I'm trying to describe.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

I noticed this same issue of *slightly* inferior HD picture quality on my Roamio OTA, watching on a 55" TV. I don't think it has anything to do with firmware or software that TiVo can update; my guess is that it's something inherent to the video decoder chips that TiVo uses.

It's hard to describe what I saw...it was like there was a faint sort of noise in the video, full of very short horizontal lines as opposed to individual pixel noise. If I compared a local OTA HD channel through the TiVo versus through the TV's internal tuner, the TiVo just didn't look *quite* as crisp and clean. But the difference was pretty subtle and it took me a good while after getting the TiVo before I noticed it.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> I noticed this same issue of *slightly* inferior HD picture quality on my Roamio OTA, watching on a 55" TV. I don't think it has anything to do with firmware or software that TiVo can update; my guess is that it's something inherent to the video decoder chips that TiVo uses.
> 
> It's hard to describe what I saw...it was like there was a faint sort of noise in the video, full of very short horizontal lines as opposed to individual pixel noise. If I compared a local OTA HD channel through the TiVo versus through the TV's internal tuner, the TiVo just didn't look *quite* as crisp and clean. But the difference was pretty subtle and it took me a good while after getting the TiVo before I noticed it.


Wow, yes the horizontal line noise! That's exactly what I see but it hard to describe, and you can see it in darker areas more I think. I really think it would have to be a software issue because I see the same thing personally with the Roamio, Mini V2 and the new Mini Vox. I've also seen some complaints about picture quality from some Bolt owners as well. All those use different Broadcom chips as far as I know.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

There are two different process streams in play here...

1) Recordings from OTA or cable: These are recorded exactly as received, bit for bit. Tivos have not had any encoders in them since the first Tivo HD. Any PQ issues there are from the source, not the DVR.

2) OTT streaming content: When comparing, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Rokus and most other streamers only output in 60fps at either 1080p or 720p. TiVos will output at native resolution and frame rate (i.e. most films are displayed at 1080p24, TV content at 1080p60 if your TV supoorts it, 1080p30 otherwise). Because of that, I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't paid much attention to pull-down processing. So, make sure your TiVo is sending through the signal as it is received.

IMHO, Rokus have terrible black levels, way higher than the standard black in any common colorspace. We prefer to watch film original content on the TiVo just to see it at 24fps, which is sharper than when the frame rate is converted by the TiVo, and for the better blacks (particularly on Netflix). In addition, the apps themselves (which are supplied by the providers, not TiVo, and are poorly supported by the providers) are far more likely to make a difference than the hardware.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

BBHughes said:


> Wow, yes the horizontal line noise! That's exactly what I see but it hard to describe, and you can see it in darker areas more I think. I really think it would have to be a software issue because I see the same thing personally with the Roamio, Mini V2 and the new Mini Vox. I've also seen some complaints about picture quality from some Bolt owners as well. All those use different Broadcom chips as far as I know.


MPEG decoding is a solved problem...I would bet that the microcode is nearly identical across the chips used by TiVo, Roku, Arris and everyone else. If you are seeing noise in the output it is more likely to be defective components than something in the design.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

I would agree with you that it should be a simple issue and there should be no problems in theory. But I can see it with my own eyes across several different models of Tivo's compared to all manner of devices including Amazon Fire TV's 1 & 2, Roku, Xbox One, and PS4. Both on apps like Netflix and playing OTA recordings, in which the OTA recordings were compared by playing them through kodi or plex on those other devices after extracting with KMTGG.

Check out this thread from 2015 where the Roamio and Mini were found to be inverting information on the screen for 1080i output and Tivo Margaret got involved to get it fixed. This could very well be a similar issue that was never resolved.

Do all Roamio and Mini have defective 1080i HDMI output?

Even on that thread after the OP found the problem he reported to now be resolved he had this to say:

"I had some extra time today to capture longer video sequences from the Mini and S3. I would now say that they are 90% equivalent. The S3 still has the edge overall. *Even without the bug, the Roamio and Mini look slightly softer on fine details in some scenes.* If anyone is interested, I can post some pics but you probably won't even notice it unless you're using a very large projection screen."

Well I'm the guy with the large projection screen that has had lasik and I can see that softer picture lol.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> Rokus and most other streamers only output in 60fps at either 1080p or 720p


My new Roku Ultra now does 1080/p24 and looks as good as my TiVo. Or my TiVo looks as good as my Roku. 

I only have a 1080p Sony which does 24fps without special stuff.


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## jwort93 (Dec 18, 2015)

Thanks for bringing this up again, @BBHughes I loved my TiVo, but the horizontal line noise that @NashGuy mentioned is exactly what I was experiencing with all of my TiVo units (2 different TiVo Bolts, and a TiVo Mini). I don't doubt that some people can't notice it, or that it doesn't bother them, but the fact that I experienced it with all 3 of my TiVo units, with multiple different TVs from different brands even, both when they were plugged directly into a TV or run through a receiver, and no matter if the TiVo box was upscaling the signal itself to 4k, or outputting resolution direct, makes me 100% confident that this is an inherent flaw in either the TiVo software or the hardware they are using. Exporting OTA recordings from the TiVo and playing them back through a different device, showed that this noise was not present on the recording itself, and confirmed in my mind that it was an issue with the TiVo box.

I never really noticed it much whenever I had a 1080p TV, but as soon as I upgraded to 4k TVs, I noticed it right away, and it ended up bothering me so much that I left the TiVo platform altogether. For a short while, I decided to rent a box straight from Spectrum, and that had vastly improved picture quality (IMO) over my TiVo units, none of the horizontal line noise was present whatsoever, but I just hated the experience of the box, so I ended up leaving cable altogether for streaming services, and purchasing shows via iTunes. If TiVo could figure out what is causing this noise to be present on their boxes, and fix it, I would absolutely switch back, as I still miss the experience TiVo provided, but I couldn't justify the terrible (IMO) picture quality they they resulted in.

@TiVo_Ted Has anyone else reported this issue, or have you noticed it yourself? I really wish I could come back, but until this is fixed, I'm afraid I just can't justify it.


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## stuart628 (Jul 5, 2006)

Man I thought it was just me, When setting up the tivo on my projector (Sony HW40es projected onto a 100" elite screen) it was noticeably softer then the spectrum box I just took down! I have a mini I am using and thought maybe bringing the mini vox down would help. But yes Picture is very soft. only noticed on projector screen, its not terrible, but it is pretty soft... I have 720p,and 1080p passthrough checked as my resolutions.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jwort93 said:


> For a short while, I decided to rent a box straight from Spectrum, and that had vastly improved picture quality (IMO) over my TiVo units, none of the horizontal line noise was present whatsoever, but I just hated the experience of the box, so I ended up leaving cable altogether for streaming services, and purchasing shows via iTunes. If TiVo could figure out what is causing this noise to be present on their boxes, and fix it, I would absolutely switch back, as I still miss the experience TiVo provided, but I couldn't justify the terrible (IMO) picture quality they they resulted in.


Just an option to consider: I'm on the beta version of DirecTV Now on an Apple TV 4K (they'll give you a unit free if you prepay 3 months of service @ $35/mo) and I'm pretty darn impressed with the HD picture quality. I'd say that, on average, it rivals that of DirecTV satellite. I've even seen folks who currently have both DTV satellite and DTV Now post on forums that they believe the latter looks a little better! Now, the regular app does not yet have cloud DVR although it is available in the beta app, which has a pretty slick UI, complete with lots of free on-demand too. They're getting the bugs ironed out and it's shaping up to be a really nice option for linear pay TV. The new version of the app is supposed to exit beta some time this spring.


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## jwort93 (Dec 18, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Just an option to consider: I'm on the beta version of DirecTV Now on an Apple TV 4K (they'll give you a unit free if you prepay 3 months of service @ $35/mo) and I'm pretty darn impressed with the HD picture quality. I'd say that, on average, it rivals that of DirecTV satellite. I've even seen folks who currently have both DTV satellite and DTV Now post on forums that they believe the latter looks a little better! Now, the regular app does not yet have cloud DVR although it is available in the beta app, which has a pretty slick UI, complete with lots of free on-demand too. They're getting the bugs ironed out and it's shaping up to be a really nice option for linear pay TV. The new version of the app is supposed to exit beta some time this spring.


Haha, I'm in the same beta. I too am extremely impressed by the stream quality in the beta app. Using the developer mode with my Apple TV 4K, the streams seem to be about 8-10mbps, and native 1080i tv channels are now being streamed at 1080i instead of downscaled to 720p, like they had been. Having never actually used normal DirecTV, I can without a doubt say it looks sooo much better than the Spectrum service I had before, but I have a feeling it does edge out the satellite service too. I only wish for two things with DTV Now: that they can get the stream latency down to less time for live events, they are usually about 30 seconds to a minute behind a regular cable/satellite feed. The other is that they can hopefully get 5.1 audio for all the channels. I've seen them testing it occasionally with some channels in the beta, so I'm hoping that rolls out to the rest of the channels soon.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jwort93 said:


> Using the developer mode with my Apple TV 4K, the streams seem to be about 8-10mbps, and native 1080i tv channels are now being streamed at 1080i instead of downscaled to 720p, like they had been.


Yeah. Well, actually, the 1080i channels are being streamed at 1080p (since retail streaming devices cannot natively handle interlaced video very well). And keep in mind that the bitrate you're seeing of 8-10 Mbps is in HEVC h.265 (not AVC h.264 like traditional cable and satellite systems use, or MPEG-2 like OTA TV uses) -- at least I *think* that's the codec that AT&T is using for all the streams to Apple TV.



jwort93 said:


> I only wish for two things with DTV Now: that they can get the stream latency down to less time for live events, they are usually about 30 seconds to a minute behind a regular cable/satellite feed. The other is that they can hopefully get 5.1 audio for all the channels. I've seen them testing it occasionally with some channels in the beta, so I'm hoping that rolls out to the rest of the channels soon.


Hmm, I wouldn't hold your breath on the latency (although that doesn't really bother me). As for 5.1 surround sound, yeah, I'd say it's coming for all channels that offer it since they've sporadically tested it in the beta. This new cloud-based OTT platform -- which is first powering the DTVN beta but will eventually power all AT&T TV services -- will support 4K HDR this year, so I have to think that 5.1 is a no-brainer. Heck, I imagine it will eventually support Dolby Atmos audio too, given that DTV satellite already does.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

You guys are killing me with the Directv now talk. I may just have to jump on board if the quality is that good. If just wish my cable provider didn't have the low data caps that they do. At 400GB per month, streaming lots of HD eats that up quickly.

I did manage to capture a screenshot of the first problem I reported of how the Tivo is incorrectly making the change from 1080i 60fps to 1080p 30fps and is butchering the picture quality in the process. If I uncheck the 1080p 24/25fps pass-through and leave 1080p 60fps checked text looks like the picture on the left. With the 24/25fps checked it actually outputs 1080i channels at 1080p 30fps and it looks like on the right. Notice how that text is noticeably more blurry. And I want to leave that setting checked to get the smoothest playback with Netflix and other apps.









Note: picture taken using Mini Vox with video playing, not paused.

I wish I could capture a comparison of the second issue but that is way more subtle, but definitely there and I'm glad other people are confirming what I see so hopefully Tivo will take note and fix it.


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## bjstick (Jan 30, 2018)

I have the exact same issue. I came from a Windows Media Center setup using the HD4000 GPU and I immediately noticed it. Just look at the menus in apps like Netflix, Plex, HBO Go, and Amazon... they are all fuzzy. Like others have said, this is more noticable on my LG OLED 65" than my 8 year old Sony 46". I've begrudgingly accepted it for the time being but I'm hoping it can be fixed.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> My new Roku Ultra now does 1080/p24 and looks as good as my TiVo. Or my TiVo looks as good as my Roku.
> 
> I only have a 1080p Sony which does 24fps without special stuff.


True...I forgot that the 4K capable series of Rokus do 24fps.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

BBHughes said:


> You guys are killing me with the Directv now talk. I may just have to jump on board if the quality is that good. If just wish my cable provider didn't have the low data caps that they do. At 400GB per month, streaming lots of HD eats that up quickly.
> 
> I did manage to capture a screenshot of the first problem I reported of how the Tivo is incorrectly making the change from 1080i 60fps to 1080p 30fps and is butchering the picture quality in the process. If I uncheck the 1080p 24/25fps pass-through and leave 1080p 60fps checked text looks like the picture on the left. With the 24/25fps checked it actually outputs 1080i channels at 1080p 30fps and it looks like on the right. Notice how that text is noticeably more blurry. And I want to leave that setting checked to get the smoothest playback with Netflix and other apps.
> 
> ...


The thing to keep in mind is that no matter what the input, the image on your TV is always the same resolution and field rate. If you have a 1080p TV, the display resolution is always 1080x1920. Likewise for a 4K it is double that in each dimension. Field rate is always what the set supports (one of 30, 60, 120 or 240 fields per second, depending on TV and settings). Anything else that comes in has to be converted to that resolution and field rate. All the various settings in your TiVo does is determine who does the conversion: the TiVo or the TV. Not surprisingly, different devices do the conversions better and some are worse. In my experience, I find TiVo's are somewhere in the middle of the pack - about equal to Rokus overall, although TiVo is better at somethings and the Roku better at others.

In the case of the example images given, the input is 1080i/60, which can only be converted to 1080p/30 since that is all the frames there are. Going to 1080p/60 means simple displaying each frame in two successive fields. If your TV's panel resolution is 1080p/60 (the standard for most "full-HD" TVs, although many now support higher field rates and frame interpolation) then what your images show is that the TiVo is doing a BETTER job of converting 1080p/30 to 1080p/60 than the TV. What you are seeing is ALWAYS 1080p/60...it is just a matter of what the TV gets, and how it converts it for display.

If you have a higher end TV it may well do better conversions than TiVo, and you should pass through everything. In some cases, the TiVo will be better. YMMV.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

That particular picture was taken from my DLP Projector, but I could have taken the same picture from any of my TV's and it would have looked about the same. My point was the Tivo does a horrible job of converting 1080i/60 to 1080p/30, it's not the TV doing it. It also never made that conversion before Hydra. Before Hydra if you had any 1080P settings enabled it would convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60 not 1080p/30. And because of this bug you cannot get native output in all situations without toggling the 1080p/24 passthrough checkbox on or off depending on what you are watching. Also its not true that all TV's display the same field rate depending on what is input. My DLP projector actually changes the speed of the colorwheel and dlp chip depending on if its receiving 24, 25,30 or 60 fps. You can actually hear it spinning up or down when switching and the color goes funny for a second or so until it completely syncs the speed. My Plasma can also display 24p at 48hz while other plasmas can use 72hz for 24p content. At the end of the day I just want to see the picture get to the TV with as little alteration as possible without having to go into the settings and change them every time and that just doesn't seem to be happening right now. I think we've also got enough people that have replied now that also see the overall softness the Tivo is producing even when its working normally and not making that conversion to admit that's also an issue.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

BBHughes said:


> That particular picture was taken from my DLP Projector, but I could have taken the same picture from any of my TV's and it would have looked about the same. My point was the Tivo does a horrible job of converting 1080i/60 to 1080p/30, it's not the TV doing it. It also never made that conversion before Hydra. Before Hydra if you had any 1080P settings enabled it would convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60 not 1080p/30. And because of this bug you cannot get native output in all situations without toggling the 1080p/24 passthrough checkbox on or off depending on what you are watching. Also its not true that all TV's display the same field rate depending on what is input. My DLP projector actually changes the speed of the colorwheel and dlp chip depending on if its receiving 24, 25,30 or 60 fps. You can actually hear it spinning up or down when switching and the color goes funny for a second or so until it completely syncs the speed. My Plasma can also display 24p at 48hz while other plasmas can use 72hz for 24p content. At the end of the day I just want to see the picture get to the TV with as little alteration as possible without having to go into the settings and change them every time and that just doesn't seem to be happening right now. I think we've also got enough people that have replied now that also see the overall softness the Tivo is producing even when its working normally and not making that conversion to admit that's also an issue.


I said "panel" - meaning a flat panel display. Some DLP systems are different, particularly one old enough to have a color wheel (although, the issues with color wheels are far worse). We have a DLP set as well (although it is a Samsung with 3 LEDs instead of a wheel) and it changes the display field rate. This is not an option for plasma, LCD or OLED panels.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

We'll just have to agree to disagree lol. Like I said my plasma can also change refresh rates for 24p content, it actually switches it to 48hz from 60hz for that and a lot of plasma's do 72hz instead to lessen the flickering that 48hz can cause when viewing 24p content. You might be right though for LCD and OLED displays those probably do have one fixed refresh rate. Also, while DLP technology is long gone for rear projection TV's, it is alive and well for front projection and almost all of them still use color wheels. My projector is only two years old, and new models are being released all the time that work the same way, the newest ones from this year even do 4k and hdr, and yes they have color wheels.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

I made one more comparison, this time on a completely different LCD TV and using a mini v2 vs the mini vox and projector I used for the first pic. It exhibits the same picture degradation switching a 1080i OTA signal to 1080p30. And that's what you get it you select the 1080p pass through in the display settings which is the only way to get 1080p for OTT apps on the mini v2.

Notice that you can actually see the thin blue stripe outlining the big stripe on the original 1080i version much clearer than what that looks like on the 1080p30 converted version. If viewing on a phone you might have to zoom in a bit to see the line isn't smooth but very jagged looking.










The tivo should not be doing this. If such degradation is too little for some people to notice or be bothered by, it doesn't mean it isn't happening and they shouldn't fix it.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

That is a well known problem in Broadcom video processors. They invert the interlaced field sequence so what should be:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

Plays back as:

2 1 4 3 6 5 8 7 0 9

This would effect any Broadcom processor that supports more than 4 streams. This applies to TiVo, but also to DirecTV and Arris (at minimum).


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

Diana Collins said:


> That is a well known problem in Broadcom video processors. They invert the interlaced field sequence so what should be:
> 
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 
> ...


Yeah that might very well explain what's causing this particular issue in the pictures I posted. I actually linked to a post about that issue earlier and it was seemingly resolved at the time of the original post but perhaps it has came back again when it's doing the conversion to 1080p30. It does it right though if you can get it to output 1080p60 by disabling the 24/25/30 1080p passthrough that's why I think they should just go back to doing that way all the time for 1080i like it did pre-hydra. So maybe that one is explainable and hopefully fixable, but I still think even when working normally the picture is definitely softer compared to other devices with the same content. No explanation for that one yet but it's definitely there if you look hard enough.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I'm not disputing what you are seeing and reporting, just questioning that it has anything to do with MPEG decoding. That is all digital data and so can't make it "soft" - that would mean they are altering the data at the pixel level. It is far more likely to be happening way later in the process, most likely at the HDMI interface where the data is remodulated onto the carrier wave. The problem is that if I'm right, there is little that can be done to fix it since it is beyond the reach of any code, it would be in the HDMI interface hardware.

Of course, there is a reason why progressive scan content is preferred...interlacing introduces subtle registration and motion tracking issues. So a portion of the effect is to be expected when displaying interlaced content.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> I'm not disputing what you are seeing and reporting, just questioning that it has anything to do with MPEG decoding. That is all digital data and so can't make it "soft" - that would mean they are altering the data at the pixel level. It is far more likely to be happening way later in the process, most likely at the HDMI interface where the data is remodulated onto the carrier wave. The problem is that if I'm right, there is little that can be done to fix it since it is beyond the reach of any code, it would be in the HDMI interface hardware.
> 
> Of course, there is a reason why progressive scan content is preferred...interlacing introduces subtle registration and motion tracking issues. So a portion of the effect is to be expected when displaying interlaced content.


The softness he's referring to, as well as the horizontal line noise that I and others have seen, doesn't have anything to do with interlacing/de-interlacing; those issues were present on every video signal that my Roamio output, including native progressive scan.

And just to be clear to anyone skimming through this thread, there are two PQ issues being discussed here:

the softness and noise issue (which, on at least some TiVos, seems to affect all HD (and SD?) video output from all sources, both broadcast and streaming)
poor 1080i60 to 1080p30 conversion (which is a particular problem in Hydra since it wrongly automatically converts 1080i60 to 1080p30, rather than retaining 1080i60 in native form, when the 1080p passthrough output option is checked)
Maybe you're right that the HDMI interface has something to do with either or both issues, although I don't think I buy the idea that the TiVo's internal video decoder -- a Broadcom chip, yes? -- can't be the source of the problem. (Sorry if that's not what you were saying in your first para above.) Different decoders/graphics chips do have different capabilities and process video differently. See this article from a year ago in which Broadcom talks about a new video decoder SoC for cable STBs that, among other things, boasts this feature:

_HD and SD video quality enhancement with per-pixel motion adaptive de-interlacing and picture enhancement processing that removes noise and contouring
_
The chip Broadcom is referencing there isn't used in the Roamio or Bolt but my point is that different video decoder SoCs do make a difference in the quality of the video stream they output. Perhaps if our TiVos had this newer Broadcom SoC rather than the older ones they use, we wouldn't be seeing these PQ issues.


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## bjstick (Jan 30, 2018)

I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention. Does the new Mini VOX use the same video decoder as the Bolt / Bolt VOX?


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> There are two different process streams in play here...
> 
> 1) Recordings from OTA or cable: These are recorded exactly as received, bit for bit. Tivos have not had any encoders in them since the first Tivo HD. Any PQ issues there are from the source, not the DVR.
> 
> ...


I recently replaced a TCL Roku tv and that unit was horrible in shadows and blacks. I didnt realize how bad it was until I got the 55 Samsung 6290. Much better picture in every way and a decent user interface and a full web browser.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bjstick said:


> I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention. Does the new Mini VOX use the same video decoder as the Bolt / Bolt VOX?


Why would it get more attention? There are a lot of variables here, and most people don't care.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

bjstick said:


> I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention. Does the new Mini VOX use the same video decoder as the Bolt / Bolt VOX?


My cable provider has a very low bit rate on HD signals, so it's more of a question of which is making the picture worse.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

powrcow said:


> My cable provider has a very low bit rate on HD signals, so it's more of a question of which is making the picture worse.


I would definitely say that lower bitrates are a much bigger contributor to poor picture quality than the TiVo-specific issues raised above.


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## bjstick (Jan 30, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> I would definitely say that lower bitrates are a much bigger contributor to poor picture quality than the TiVo-specific issues raised above.


I disagree. The picture quality is very noticeable in application menus... it's just softer. Much more so on my UHD 65" OLED than my FHD 46" LED.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

It is probably superior/inferior processing of the output, considering the OP was able to get superior/proper PQ using the same stream via other devices. While there is a limit to how good the PQ will output depending on the era of chip and whatever else, I would not be surprised if this can be fixed by firmware update, especially with the improper frame rate conversion reported only after Hydra--if I've read that part properly. While it could be a hardware problem, most often it is how TiVo--or other companies providing boxes--make choices or compromises in their customization when dealing with the code, and for reasons many of us could ever imagine.

It could easily have been the case that TiVo engineers/techs knew about the first problem, but with pressure to release the boxes by target date, may have decided that because it can't be seen that much unless blown up on very large displays or 100" from a projector, TiVo may have just sent it out anyway instead of fixing the problem and missing the release date. They may have figured they won't even do anything about it even after launch unless enough people complain or report it; then they can take the time and resources to deal with it then, if they are in the mood.

I'm not saying that I know that as a fact, but far more often, especially in the digital domain, the software is where the real power and problems can be, and TiVo S5 isn't using last decades chips in its boxes. It takes time, which is MONEY, to deal with anything on the software level, so TiVo--considering the TiVo box as we know it is a declining business--has incentive to just NOT deal with these 2 problems and MOVE ON to pushing S6: a business decision. I also find TiVo Ted's absence on this thread to offer an explanation of some sort or at least "defend" TiVo S5 boxes and how we are all wrong, to be illuminating. Of course, this forum has TiVo apologists and especially one who ALWAYS does TiVo's "company line" defense of any notion that TiVo and its products are ever the "problem" but rather the ignorance of those reporting the problem is the problem, but, it seems, never TiVo. That adds a layer of distraction.

I can't see the horizontal line or the "softness" because 55" is the largest display I have. Also, all my TiVo's (and other devices) are running through external processors of some kind--very advanced chips, so it might reduce the effect on a display as small as 55" to the point that my NOT great eyes can't see the problems.

However, in the past, I thought many times that when I switched between my S3's and my S5's (in two rooms, both the S3's and S5's share the same display, so I can see differences pretty instantly) the S3's did seem a bit more "clear" or just slightly better "detail." I've noticed this many times, but I just thought it was just some effect in my brain and nothing real. However, now that I've come across this thread, I will take more notice of the difference in PQ between my S3's and S5's.

Thank you to the OP and a really great thread by all (even apologists) to this thread. Very illuminating.

I am willing to bet (a common expression), that TiVo can fix both problems, but probably don't want to, especially since it is all about Bolt and Hydra. I can't blame TiVo Ted for being "mum." He wants to keep his job, and I don't want to see him living in the park.


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## TrueEddie (Mar 3, 2009)

Great thread! I recently moved from a 70" 1080P TV to an 86" 4K TV and the softness has become quite visible. I kept questioning my eyes thinking I must be crazy. But last night I loaded up the Netflix app from the TV and compared it to the TiVO Netflix app, wow what a difference. 

This makes me sad because I've always used the TiVo as the center of my entertainment experience. I use it for broadcast OTA recordings, Netflix/Hulu/Amazon streaming and even use it with Plex. I considered TiVo to be the perfect box as it handled all of my needs. But this picture quality issue isn't just noticeable, but highly distracting. 

I feel like I don't know what to do. You might think I'm being dramatic, but stuff like this bothers me. I've been a TiVo user for almost 10 years, and I don't really want to switch to some other box. But I feel like based on the number of threads discussing this issue it's not going to be addressed any time soon. The improvement in quality when using other devices means I will have to do research and decide if it's worth switching.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

Glad to see there are others that feel the same way as I do. I had to wonder myself if I was just being too picky before starting this thread. But at the same time I'm also somewhat surprised there haven't been more complaints because there are enough people with high quality HDTVs and UHD TVs out there these days that if they really paid any attention they would see the difference too. I love the way my Tivo works otherwise but knowing I'm not quite getting the picture quality I should bugs the heck out of me. I've pretty much switched to only using the Tivo for live and recorded OTA at this point. And even for that I've started researching the alternatives but any alternatives would have other compromises. I think my ideal solution at this point would be for the Tivo to work more like the Tablo does but without modifying the original recording any way, just be a headless box that stores the recordings and has tuners for live TV that I can connect to with any streaming box running the Tivo app. I tried last night to capture some pictures of the overall softness that the Tivo outputs compared to other devices but so far that has eluded me, my cell phone camera just isn't up to snuff to capture that level of detail and some of the difference I see is in the level of noise I'm not sure would show up unless it was captured with a video instead of a still picture.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> It is probably superior/inferior processing of the output, considering the OP was able to get superior/proper PQ using the same stream via other devices. While there is a limit to how good the PQ will output depending on the era of chip and whatever else, I would not be surprised if this can be fixed by firmware update, especially with the improper frame rate conversion reported only after Hydra--if I've read that part properly.


The improper frame rate conversion problem in Hydra is almost certainly a software issue that TiVo could correct. As for the more fundamental issue of soft and noisy video processing, I couldn't say. I do know that it never seemed to get worse or better over the three years that I had a Roamio OTA as TiVo updated the software on that box. My assumption is that the problem lies at a very low level, if not in the hardware (SoC, HDMI port, etc.), then in the system firmware or the core of the TiVo OS. But I freely admit that I'm not a developer, so what do I know?



Series3Sub said:


> It takes time, which is MONEY, to deal with anything on the software level, so TiVo--considering the TiVo box as we know it is a declining business--has incentive to just NOT deal with these 2 problems and MOVE ON to pushing S6: a business decision. I also find TiVo Ted's absence on this thread to offer an explanation of some sort or at least "defend" TiVo S5 boxes and how we are all wrong, to be illuminating.


Good points.



Series3Sub said:


> I can't see the horizontal line or the "softness" because 55" is the largest display I have. Also, all my TiVo's (and other devices) are running through external processors of some kind--very advanced chips, so it might reduce the effect on a display as small as 55" to the point that my NOT great eyes can't see the problems.


I could see those issues on two different 55" TVs, a 1080p LCD and a UHD OLED. But in neither case was the TiVo signal being fed through external processors, just maybe passing through the HDMI ports on a non-upscaling AV receiver.

I do want to point out again that, while I could see the issue, I believe that it's subtle enough that the vast majority of TiVo users would never notice. I have learned, from watching TV with friends and family of all ages over the years, that I'm way more critical of picture quality than most folks. Problems like compression artifacts, which mainly come from how the content distributor encodes their video rather than how the TiVo (or other device) plays it, are a much bigger issue to me than TiVo's slightly soft and noisy video processing.

I can specifically recall once turning off a 1080p show streaming through the Amazon app built into my LG UHD TV and resuming watching it in the Amazon app in the Roamio because it looked better on the Roamio due to fewer compression artifacts! My assumption is that Amazon had (overly aggressively) encoded that video in HEVC h.265 to send to the TV app but had encoded it in the older AVC h.264 to send to the Roamio app.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

BBHughes said:


> Glad to see there are others that feel the same way as I do. I had to wonder myself if I was just being too picky before starting this thread. But at the same time I'm also somewhat surprised there haven't been more complaints because there are enough people with high quality HDTVs and UHD TVs out there these days that if they really paid any attention they would see the difference too.


Here's my problem. I agree with you. I have a small (40") 1080p Sony. My cable feed doesn't alter what it gets. Two years ago my CBS feed came from a station with no sub-channels. I was getting over 16Mbps. Then they added two sub-channels. The bit rate dropped to 12Mbps. A few months ago they added two more sub-channels. Now my bit rate is down to just over 10Mbps. So as much as I like a nice picture, I can't see how my TiVo is going to make things better since they are not the reason my quality has dropped. As for streaming, everything I like to watch has been 2ch stereo and most still have commercials. My cable feed has caps too. Who knows what the future will bring? I'll wait and watch.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BBHughes said:


> I love the way my Tivo works otherwise but knowing I'm not quite getting the picture quality I should bugs the heck out of me. I've pretty much switched to only using the Tivo for live and recorded OTA at this point. And even for that I've started researching the alternatives but any alternatives would have other compromises. I think my ideal solution at this point would be for the Tivo to work more like the Tablo does but without modifying the original recording any way, just be a headless box that stores the recordings and has tuners for live TV that I can connect to with any streaming box running the Tivo app.


Well, I've tried a few different things since moving on from a TiVo Roamio OTA, so I could probably help you out. Feel free to start a new thread ("Alternatives to TiVo for OTA TV" or some such) or send me a PM. Right now, I'm using an Apple TV 4K as my main viewing device and I have an HDHomeRun network OTA tuner which I use with MythTV (free open source DVR server software) on my Mac for recording and storing shows, which I can then play back on the Apple TV 4K. I also own a Tablo, so can answer questions about that. I've also tried Plex DVR. And then there are some other OTA DVR options for use with various Android TV streamers; I know about those options but haven't tried them myself.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

Thanks NashGuy. I actually took the advice of you and some others mentioned earlier about DirecTV Now and got the free Apple TV4k for paying for 3 months to try it out. I don't even have the beta but I'm pretty impressed with the picture quality. The 720P for live TV looks pretty good. I watch a lot of CW shows, and while DirecTV now doesn't have my local CW network, they do have the CW shows on-demand in 1080P with 5.1 sound. They look and sound way better than my local CW channel through the Tivo, its not even a fair comparison. The CW app doesn't even have that, its 720P with stereo sound. I just have to put up with a few commercials which is a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. I also wanted to bump this back up to see if anyone else might be able to comment on the issues I reported. So far I don't think we've caught the attention of anyone at Tivo either through this thread or direct message, or if I have it's not something they care to comment on.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Problems like compression artifacts, which mainly come from how the content distributor encodes their video rather than how the TiVo (or other device) plays it, are a much bigger issue to me than TiVo's slightly soft and noisy video processing.


Exactly, especially if you are on Comcast with their 720p mpeg4 downres conversion. Tivo is the least of the issues here.


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## alexb (Jan 4, 2003)

BBHughes said:


> Thanks NashGuy. I actually took the advice of you and some others mentioned earlier about DirecTV Now and got the free Apple TV4k for paying for 3 months to try it out. I don't even have the beta but I'm pretty impressed with the picture quality. The 720P for live TV looks pretty good. I watch a lot of CW shows, and while DirecTV now doesn't have my local CW network, they do have the CW shows on-demand in 1080P with 5.1 sound. They look and sound way better than my local CW channel through the Tivo, its not even a fair comparison. The CW app doesn't even have that, its 720P with stereo sound. I just have to put up with a few commercials which is a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. I also wanted to bump this back up to see if anyone else might be able to comment on the issues I reported. So far I don't think we've caught the attention of anyone at Tivo either through this thread or direct message, or if I have it's not something they care to comment on.


Thanks for the update, i am not sure how using an apple TV is good or even relevant comparison. The only way to show if there is a soft issue that is purely is a tivo issue is to have a different make of tuner using the same signal (either a 3rd party OTA tuner to compare against an OTA TiVo OR a 3rd party cable tuner to compare to a cable tuner tivo).

I have done this using a hdhomreun - in terms of soft images in video content they were identical - it was the source feed from comcast which was the cause.
With the tivo mini (not vox mini) plugged in i don't see softness in the UI - the exact opposite actually as the font looks scratch and wiry as it is not using any aliasing on the font edges.

I have 110" 4K laser projector, happy to do more tests if it will help as i can compare at scale.


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## Slopokdave (Oct 29, 2017)

I thought I was crazy, it's nice to see I'm not. 

I moved from a 55" Samsung to a 65" Sony 4K on March 3rd. I've noticed Xfinity cable on my Tivo looks considerably woese as of late. I'm not sure if I just didn't notice it before or if the jump in size amplified it?

Sony 930E has one of the better upscaling engines too, but can't make crap look good when your source is crap.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

alexb said:


> Thanks for the update, i am not sure how using an apple TV is good or even relevant comparison. The only way to show if there is a soft issue that is purely is a tivo issue is to have a different make of tuner using the same signal.


Yep, I did that multiple times with the same OTA feed split between my TV's internal tuner and a Roamio OTA. Picture always looked a little sharper and cleaner via the TV tuner. Same difference when streaming the same HD show via the Netflix app in the Roamio vs. any other streaming device.


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## alexb (Jan 4, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Yep, I did that multiple times with the same OTA feed split between my TV's internal tuner and a Roamio OTA. Picture always looked a little sharper and cleaner via the TV tuner. Same difference when streaming the same HD show via the Netflix app in the Roamio vs. any other streaming device.


Thanks, I have bolt, maybe there is a difference between them?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

One thing I've noticed about the picture quality on the Bolt is it's a bit more clinical than previous Tivo's, it's a bit cooler looking, not as warm. But it's also more truthful, you notice little things with OTA brodcasts I didn't see with the Premiere, and short of live sports many other programs have issues it's just easier to see them now. Also with streaming masters may be edge enhanced and will lack the depth seen with OTA broadcasts. 
Your recordings are only as good as your source material, and all sources are flawed.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I hate to say it, but my simple test indicates that the processing is different on my TV. I feed my Roamio and my TV with the same cable line, except for the last three feet. I have one clear QAM SD channel. I can switch inputs with just one button press on the TV's remote. My TV has a non-professional calibration (I did it). When I switch my cable feed's clear channel between the virtual channel from the Roamio and the tuner's QAM channel, both 480i, the TV is clearer. Not a lot clearer, but it is very easy to notice. I don't know a way to calibrate the tuner supplied content as I can with a calibration disk from my Blu-ray. Perhaps someone can test their OTA TiVo vs the OTA feed to their TV and observe any difference. I wish I could test 1080i, but my cable company does support that until my next free weekend of a premium channel.


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> I hate to say it, but my simple test indicates that the processing is different on my TV. I feed my Roamio and my TV with the same cable line, except for the last three feet. I have one clear QAM SD channel. I can switch inputs with just one button press on the TV's remote. My TV has a non-professional calibration (I did it). When I switch my cable feed's clear channel between the virtual channel from the Roamio and the tuner's QAM channel, both 480i, the TV is clearer. Not a lot clearer, but it is very easy to notice. I don't know a way to calibrate the tuner supplied content as I can with a calibration disk from my Blu-ray. Perhaps someone can test their OTA TiVo vs the OTA feed to their TV and observe any difference. I wish I could test 1080i, but my cable company does support that until my next free weekend of a premium channel.


Remember, it's not just a function of the quality of the cable company signal vs OTA. Cable signal quality may exacerbate the problem, but would still exist even if signals were not compressed. This is because the problem persists when comparing Netflix/Hulu/Amazon/etc. via TiVo against using any literally any other device to stream those same streming services. You will notice the softness still exists when streaming on TiVo compared to other any other device. Whatever this problem is, it's completely limited to something in the TiVo.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

thompsr2 said:


> Remember, it's not just a function of the quality of the cable company signal vs OTA. Cable signal quality may exacerbate the problem, but would still exist even if signals were not compressed. This is because the problem persists when comparing Netflix/Hulu/Amazon/etc. via TiVo against using any literally any other device to stream those same streming services. You will notice the softness still exists when streaming on TiVo compared to other any other device. Whatever this problem is, it's completely limited to something in the TiVo.


Let me be sure. Are you saying that streaming Amazon on a TiVo is lower quality than streaming with another device? So anything that comes out of a TiVo is worse? BTW, my cable feed doesn't compress anything. My content is unchanged from the source. Sadly some of those sources, like broadcast stations, have reduced their quality below the level of basic cable like ESPN or USA.

When I compare the 1080p24 output of my Roku Ultra with the same 1080p24 of my TiVo for the same content, I can't detect any difference. But the test is not as clear cut as just a one button switch.


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## jwort93 (Dec 18, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Let me be sure. Are you saying that streaming Amazon on a TiVo is lower quality than streaming with another device? So anything that comes out of a TiVo is worse? BTW, my cable feed doesn't compress anything. My content is unchanged from the source. Sadly some of those sources, like broadcast stations, have reduced their quality below the level of basic cable like ESPN or USA.
> 
> When I compare the 1080p24 output of my Roku Ultra with the same 1080p24 of my TiVo for the same content, I can't detect any difference. But the test is not as clear cut as just a one button switch.


I've definitely noticed that everything, no matter the source, whether it be Hulu, Netflix, or my Cable, looked worse when output via the TiVo, whether I had all the video output resolutions turned on in the TiVo, so it was outputting source direct, or not. There was a noticeable softness and horizontal line noise visible on the picture. As I previously mentioned, this only really became noticeable after I switched to 4k TVs, but I noticed it on both my Vizio P-series, and my LG B6 OLED, so it's not a problem with specific model TVs. Others have experienced the same. This was with the TiVo plugged directly into the TV, with no components in between.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

jwort93 said:


> I've definitely noticed that everything, no matter the source, whether it be Hulu, Netflix, or my Cable, looked worse when output via the TiVo, whether I had all the video output resolutions turned on in the TiVo, so it was outputting source direct, or not. There was a noticeable softness and horizontal line noise visible on the picture. As I previously mentioned, this only really became noticeable after I switched to 4k TVs, but I noticed it on both my Vizio P-series, and my LG B6 OLED, so it's not a problem with specific model TVs. Others have experienced the same. This was with the TiVo plugged directly into the TV, with no components in between.


I hope that someday there will be a method to get quantitative with a qualitative observation. I wish I had better tools also, like the way gamers can get lag measurements. Someday.


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> I hope that someday there will be a method to get quantitative with a qualitative observation. I wish I had better tools also, like the way gamers can get lag measurements. Someday.


A frame grabber might do the trick. I don't have one, so I can't be sure.


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Let me be sure. Are you saying that streaming Amazon on a TiVo is lower quality than streaming with another device? So anything that comes out of a TiVo is worse? BTW, my cable feed doesn't compress anything. My content is unchanged from the source. Sadly some of those sources, like broadcast stations, have reduced their quality below the level of basic cable like ESPN or USA.
> 
> When I compare the 1080p24 output of my Roku Ultra with the same 1080p24 of my TiVo for the same content, I can't detect any difference. But the test is not as clear cut as just a one button switch.


Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Regardless of watching cable TV, OTA, or streaming services, the picture coming out of the TiVo is effected by this 'softness'. I'm viewing on a 55" 4k OLED (Roamio) and a 42" 4k LCD in the bedroom. Both exhibit the soft picture. Before and after Hydra.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

thompsr2 said:


> A frame grabber might do the trick. I don't have one, so I can't be sure.


In a job long long ago, I used an o'scope to view data on an internet cable. But without the TiVo's schematic it would be a lot of guess work.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Years ago I compared TiVo's (native) image to a couple of computer based DVRs and found it very close perhaps lacking slightly in contrast. However I think it's very difficult to compare apples to apples... I upgraded to a larger display and the same resolution looks worse. Of course it will. TiVo looks worse with SD content. Set TiVo to native resolution and let the TV (or receiver) do the scaling. Based on your settings TiVo may be scaling various resolutions to another before going to the TV where often it gets scaled again.

Streaming often one device supports different resolutions than another and I know for a fact TiVo's (Roamio) 2k image isn't going to equal the 4K image my TV receives natively (via its Apps). The video image is based on several factors and I don't think you can qualify "TiVo's Picture Quality" without defining what path you are going down to display it.

I tried DirecTV Now a while back via the Apple TV 4K and overall was impressed with its image. Often more detailed than TiVo. However at the same time various local channels were missing, at times I would see pixel breakup, buffering and less frequently the channel would freeze or I couldn't tune to it. Not to mention nothing like auto-skip or other endless features. Bottom line the locals (as others have pointed out) have destroyed their own image to the point what damage TiVo may be doing is barely relevant and I have never found TiVo worthwhile as a streamer to begin with...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Charles R said:


> Bottom line the locals (as others have pointed out) have destroyed their own image to the point what damage TiVo may be doing is barely relevant and I have never found TiVo worthwhile as a streamer to begin with...


And basic cable. I used to get USA at 16Mbps and now it's 12.57Mbps. But my point, in which I agree with the OP is:
Local information channel:
1) clear QAM to TV tuner
2) Roamio with cable card to HDMI input
3) Different Roamio without cable card to same HDMI input
Sorry, but number 1 looks better. Not by much and no change of the 480i content was done. It's not a very scientific test. Number 2 and 3 use the same cables and everything is on the same RG-6 line. Also, I'm not comparing the color, brightness, or black levels. Just comparing the text.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

JoeKustra said:


> 1) clear QAM to TV tuner
> 2) Roamio with cable card to HDMI input
> 3) Different Roamio without cable card to same HDMI input
> Sorry, but number 1 looks better.


What is TiVo's output set to? 480i? or something else. If it's something else then TiVo is scaling the image (based on the setting and based on native resolution of the TV the TV might be further scaling it) and it really isn't a test of image quality... rather scaling. If TiVo is outputting 480i and both input settings are the same (such as sharpness) then you would be comparing the actual image (itself).

The only apples to apples is display settings the same for each input and both receiving native resolution. If TiVo is set to 1080p output you would be comparing TiVo scaling to the TV's... change TiVo to native (if that setting is working or 480i) and let the TV do the scaling... if you prefer it.

In practice I can't address the issue as I refuse to watch anything 480i... sorry.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Charles R said:


> What is TiVo's output set to? 480i? or something else. If it's something else then TiVo is scaling the image (based on the setting and based on native resolution of the TV the TV might be further scaling it) and it really isn't a test of image quality... rather scaling. If TiVo is outputting 480i and both input settings are the same (such as sharpness) then you would be comparing the actual image (itself).
> The only apples to apples is display settings the same for each input and both receiving native resolution. If TiVo is set to 1080p output you would be comparing TiVo scaling to the TV's... change TiVo to native (if that setting is working or 480i) and let the TV do the scaling... if you prefer it.
> In practice I can't address the issue as I refuse to watch anything 480i... sorry.


Usually my output is set to 1080i, 1080p (pass through). For this test I enabled 480i.

My TV will always display whatever it gets in 1080p. But 480i isn't bad compared to vsb.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

And let us not forget that live tv on Tivo is actually pulled off the hard drive buffer, we should throw another cable company dvr into the test also for comparison. DVR's are doing a lot more to a signal then just a live feed.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

The points you guys are raising are all logical but none of them made any difference in my experience. The picture quality issues I saw -- most notably, the faint noise that looked like tiny shifting horizon lines or dashes everywhere -- was present in everything the TiVo output, regardless of the original video resolution, whether or not it was upscaled, or whether or not the video signal had been saved to the hard drive (since it happened with streaming videos from Netflix, etc. too). This noise and softness was like a fingerprint that the TiVo imprinted on all video it output. After I first noticed it, it became a tell-tale sign that I could use to determine (without otherwise knowing) whether the TV (first a 55" 1080p Samsung LCD, then a 55" 4K LG OLED) was currently displaying content from the TiVo or from another device.


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## bjstick (Jan 30, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> The points you guys are raising are all logical but none of them made any difference in my experience. The picture quality issues I saw -- most notably, the faint noise that looked like tiny shifting horizon lines or dashes everywhere -- was present in everything the TiVo output, regardless of the original video resolution, whether or not it was upscaled, or whether or not the video signal had been saved to the hard drive (since it happened with streaming videos from Netflix, etc. too). This noise and softness was like a fingerprint that the TiVo imprinted on all video it output. After I first noticed it, it became a tell-tale sign that I could use to determine (without otherwise knowing) whether the TV (first a 55" 1080p Samsung LCD, then a 55" 4K LG OLED) was currently displaying content from the TiVo or from another device.


NashGuy is correct. This isn't a matter of perception or opinion.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

bjstick said:


> NashGuy is correct. This isn't a matter of perception or opinion.


I agree. I hesitate to say it but the description makes me thing something is wrong. Bad cable, bad TiVo, bad...

The description: "faint noise that looked like tiny shifting horizon lines or dashes everywhere" is not a perception problem.

It's what happens when a post doesn't fit the thread title and people (like me) assume it does.


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

Nashguy totally nails this issue and I'm afraid most people just don't understand because they are not sensitive enough to see it or have a big enough TV that is properly calibrated to see it. The bottom line is the Tivo video output is noticeably inferior playing back the exact same content than other devices I have tested at the exact same resolution. That might be OTA, files playing via Plex, Netflix, or Amazon. Everything!


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

BBHughes said:


> Nashguy totally nails this issue and I'm afraid most people just don't understand because they are not sensitive enough to see it or have a big enough TV that is properly calibrated to see it. The bottom line is the Tivo video output is noticeably inferior playing back the exact same content than other devices I have tested at the exact same resolution. That might be OTA, files playing via Plex, Netflix, or Amazon. Everything!


100% Agree


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## BBHughes (Dec 26, 2006)

Well, the newest 21.7.2.RC19 does nothing for the 1080p/30 issue on 1080i channels when the 1080p pass through option is enabled. Man that one at least seems like it should be such an easy fix as that problem was just introduced with Hydra.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BBHughes said:


> I made one more comparison, this time on a completely different LCD TV and using a mini v2 vs the mini vox and projector I used for the first pic. It exhibits the same picture degradation switching a 1080i OTA signal to 1080p30. And that's what you get it you select the 1080p pass through in the display settings which is the only way to get 1080p for OTT apps on the mini v2.
> 
> Notice that you can actually see the thin blue stripe outlining the big stripe on the original 1080i version much clearer than what that looks like on the 1080p30 converted version. If viewing on a phone you might have to zoom in a bit to see the line isn't smooth but very jagged looking.
> 
> ...


yes. It also looks like ass with a news/stock crawler. It should be outputting 1080P60 like just about every other device does with 1080i content. Just like pre-Hydra did as well. Which is why I do not have 1080P24/30 or 2160P24/30 selected for an output with Hydra. Since it will send 1080P30 or 2160P30 with 1080i content instead of the 1080P60 or 2160P60 it should be sending if it had native resolution output working properly.

So until things get fixed with the resolution output i'm just using 1080i and 720P as output options. Since I have dozens of other devices anyway for watching the streaming apps.


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## lisabranam (Apr 5, 2018)

Tivo Roamio Pro is hands down the best DVR out there. I get lots of storage for my favorite shows and movies. Tivo is also the best match to my Charter Cable.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

lisabranam said:


> Tivo Roamio Pro is hands down the best DVR out there. I get lots of storage for my favorite shows and movies. Tivo is also the best match to my Charter Cable.


You're awesome! I didn't know that


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> yes. It also looks like ass with a news/stock crawler. It should be outputting 1080P60 like just about every other device does with 1080i content. Just like pre-Hydra did as well. Which is why I do not have 1080P24/30 or 2160P24/30 selected for an output with Hydra. Since it will send 1080P30 or 2160P30 with 1080i content instead of the 1080P60 or 2160P60 it should be sending if it had native resolution output working properly.
> 
> So until things get fixed with the resolution output i'm just using 1080i and 720P as output options. Since I have dozens of other devices anyway for watching the streaming apps.


Well, whether TiVo should output 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 from 1080i/60 source is largely a matter of opinion. The fact is that converting from interlace to progressive will cut the frame rate to 30 fps, so a 1080p/60 output from a 1080i/60 source, would just repeat every frame twice.

However, that's not the more fundamental problem - they shouldn't be introducing noise, nor should they be processing fields out of order. It is a known issue, and solutions exist to fix it (DirecTV had the exact same problem with the original Genie DVR, and they fixed it).


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## F1Shoey (Sep 2, 2018)

BBHughes said:


> You guys are killing me with the Directv now talk. I may just have to jump on board if the quality is that good. If just wish my cable provider didn't have the low data caps that they do. At 400GB per month, streaming lots of HD eats that up quickly.
> 
> I did manage to capture a screenshot of the first problem I reported of how the Tivo is incorrectly making the change from 1080i 60fps to 1080p 30fps and is butchering the picture quality in the process. If I uncheck the 1080p 24/25fps pass-through and leave 1080p 60fps checked text looks like the picture on the left. With the 24/25fps checked it actually outputs 1080i channels at 1080p 30fps and it looks like on the right. Notice how that text is noticeably more blurry. And I want to leave that setting checked to get the smoothest playback with Netflix and other apps.


So BBHughes, why don't you leave it at 1080p 60fps?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Well, whether TiVo should output 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 from 1080i/60 source is largely a matter of opinion. The fact is that converting from interlace to progressive will cut the frame rate to 30 fps, so a 1080p/60 output from a 1080i/60 source, would just repeat every frame twice.
> 
> However, that's not the more fundamental problem - they shouldn't be introducing noise, nor should they be processing fields out of order. It is a known issue, and solutions exist to fix it (DirecTV had the exact same problem with the original Genie DVR, and they fixed it).


I think the issue was fixed s while ago. I've been using 1080P60 output without any issues for months now.


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## TexasDVR (Feb 20, 2013)

Very pleased with picture quality here. Have an old Panasonic Plasma 800U series, and the automatic TiVo thing selected 1080p60. Picture seems a tad better than the old Premiere. I have no idea what it would do on one of the new fancy pants 4K TV's


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## bellbm (Dec 16, 2003)

So what are the best settings on the bolt? I have an LG OLED tv. Should I set to auto? Or something else? I played around with it last night, and couldn't really tell any difference between the different settings.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

bellbm said:


> So what are the best settings on the bolt? I have an LG OLED tv. Should I set to auto? Or something else? I played around with it last night, and couldn't really tell any difference between the different settings.


Please let me explain "Auto".








Look to the right. When Auto is selected, the resolution used by your TV will be shown under "Auto for your TV includes:". For my Roamio with TE3, it shows 1080i. The same TV with TE4 shows 1080p. I dislike the HDMI delay when switching resolutions, so I just select 1080i. For streaming video from the internet the "(pass-through)" is used. You can not check only the (pass-through).


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## man cave (Nov 15, 2014)

I have the same TV. I use pass through on my 2017 denon and auto on my tivo bolt. works great.


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## Drpepr (Aug 5, 2018)

Since I got TiVo about a month ago (Roamio Plus and A92s) I’ve been telling myself that the picture quality is the same as my cable box. It’s been working up until today. NFL football is just not the same. Mainly when watching the plays from the cameras over the field. The clarity is not there.
Does any have any thoughts/experience with this? Thanks


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

I


bellbm said:


> So what are the best settings on the bolt? I have an LG OLED tv. Should I set to auto? Or something else? I played around with it last night, and couldn't really tell any difference between the different settings.


I selected auto for my LG OLED and the picture wasn't as good as OTA connected right to the TV.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

cldlhd said:


> I
> I selected auto for my LG OLED and the picture wasn't as good as OTA connected right to the TV.


Do you remember what was the preferred resolution for Auto?







It's on the right side.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Do you remember what was the preferred resolution for Auto?
> View attachment 37159
> 
> It's on the right side.


I believe it was 1080p/60fs and it said something regarding 2160 when the content was there. I had the Bolt connected through my Yamaha aventage receiver but it's 4k capable and all my HDMI cables are high speed so I don't think it's an issue. In hindsight I could have tried unplugging the HDMI cable from the receiver and connected the Bolt directly but I doubt that's the issue.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> Yep, I did that multiple times with the same OTA feed split between my TV's internal tuner and a Roamio OTA. Picture always looked a little sharper and cleaner via the TV tuner. Same difference when streaming the same HD show via the Netflix app in the Roamio vs. any other streaming device.


I'll admit I didn't spend a lot of time messing around with the Tivos output settings as I only had the Bolt OTA a day but when I connected the line from the antenna to a splitter with one line going to my TV (LG oled 4k) and the other to the Bolt the TV had a clearly better picture.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> 1) Recordings from OTA or cable: These are recorded exactly as received, bit for bit. Tivos have not had any encoders in them since the first Tivo HD. Any PQ issues there are from the source, not the DVR.


Technically the Premiere 2-tuner has encoders, but few people have analog cable anymore to actually use them, so they're mostly unused.

That being said, I haven't had VQ issues, and I'm extremely picky and vocal about VQ, as many on here know about my many complaints about Comcast's crap-tacular over-compressed mess of 720p. That being said, I haven't done side by side comparisons, and I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo's VQ isn't quite as good as other tuners, or that their video processing isn't as good as that built into a TV.

When I had a 1080p TV with my Premiere XL4, I had a DVDO EDGE doing the video processing to convert everything to 1080p. I later got a 4k TV, and was still using the EDGE, so I would switch it to 720p output to watch basketball so that I didn't have 720p>1080p>2160p going on, but I later found out that having the DVDO EDGE do the processing to feed the 4k TV 1080p made it look better, even with the extra conversion and not having an exact 3:1 scaling in the tv from 720p to 2160p. Go figure.

I don't use the video processor anymore, although I suppose I could hook it up if I wanted to process OTA a bit more, as it is made for MPEG-2 processing, and OTA is MPEG-2.

I have not done side by side comparisons with my TV's built-in tuner, as I just don't really care, as I don't watch OTA live, and when I first had my Roamio OTA, I was using that tuner for a couple of analog cable TV channels that they didn't have digitally, so my Premiere XL4 didn't get them, in particular ESPNNews, which would have basketball games that ran over occasionally.

Overall, as a VQ snob, I have found TiVo's VQ to be very good, but I'm also using OTA now, so I have a reasonably good quality source. I don't doubt that it doesn't have the best decoder, however.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

My provider has a message channel in HD. It is also sent via clear QAM. It runs the same bit rate as most of my other basic cable channels: 12Mbps. I can view it on my TV and from my TiVo. With one button press I can switch. I see no difference. But I'm old and it's just 1080i.


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## jbragg1989 (May 24, 2020)

Just got my Bolt hooked up to my LG B6. Thought I was nuts at the level of softness I was seeing from a Netflix 4K stream of Better Call Saul I was playing back via the Bolt. It being a show with many low light scenes I figured some of the detail was lost there. But the problem appears to go beyond those source limitations as many have expressed in this thread. Even the Netflix on screen menus were a dimmer greyish color that lacked the sharp edges that are a clear indicator of a good 4k signal.

I was hoping the Bolt could be a solution for 4K & DD+ / Atmos playback. Back to the 4K Fire Stick I go (which frustratingly doesn't support Atmos via its Netflix app). My B6 also doesn't accept Dolby Vision at 4K 60fps (only 24/30fps) and the Fire Stick doesn't have a 4K non 60fps option.

I'm left having to compromise with using a combination of the B6 Netflix app (perfect 4K 30 fps / Dolby Vision & DD only via ARC), the 4K Fire Stick (4k HDR10/SDR & DD+), and my LG 4K Blu-ray player which forces 4K Dolby Vision 24fps on all content so is only good for DV movies. Does have Atmos output though.

Oh and I have to manually reset the 4K Fire Stick on every boot to output 4K 60fps because it forgets and resets itself to auto. When left on auto, the Netflix app never outputs beyond 1080p to my B6 because the B6 is communicating it can't to DV @60fps!

What a cluster****!

Shame of me for believing that a TiVo box could ever be an full featured OTA and streaming hub. I should have learned the lesson the first time with my Roamio OTA.

All that said, the Bolt is a sleek box on my entertainment stand and honestly doing a competent job at recording and playing OTA will be worth the $268 I paid for my new 1tb OTA Bolt with Lifetime service.

Rant over. 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Another user that figures out you don't use Tivo apps.


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