# Tivo admits they are wrong but still hold firm



## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...20-problem-laurence-20100620,0,7754995.column

Story showed up on the Chicago Tribune Problem Solvers. Another reason Tivo rather deal with bad PR rather than issue a refund. Instead they state their system will only allow them to go back 6 months.

Another customer lost.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Why was Tivo wrong? He transferred his lifetime service to a new box. The deal at the time was, you had to call and cancel the service on the old box (after 1 year of free service) or start getting billed $12.95/month.

Yeah it was stupid the way Tivo offered this deal. (Having to cancel in a year or start paying.) But that is the way it worked.

If his old box was really dead then he was not eligible to transfer his lifetime service to begin with. Tivo cut him a break.



> hen his TiVo box broke in 2006. *The way Laurence remembers it,* he called the company's customer service line and asked if he could transfer his lifetime service agreement to a new TiVo. A customer service agent told him no.
> 
> A year later, a $12.95 charge began appearing each month on his American Express bill.
> 
> *The Chicago resident thought he was being charged for service on his new TiVo. That wasn't the case.*


Exactly what did he think happened? Did he think his knew box was just free? I don't get it. Didn't he pay the $199 transfer fee? Or didn't he notice that on his AE bill either?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

This isn't so black and white against TiVo as you imply.

Is it reasonable to allow yourself to be charged for a service that you aren't using for years then demand a refund? The service was made available whether you used it or not. If you don't want it, you should cancel it. You have a responsibility to exercise some "due diligence" about charges you see coming to you each month.

Aw heck, he looks so nice there with his dog ... give him the refund.  I'm amazed the newspaper couldn't find a serious case of consumer mistreatment to fill their columns.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Sounds like the guy knew what deal he was getting and forgot what would happen when his free year of service was up.
A red flag should have been raised as soon as that first charge appeared on his credit card.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Let's face it fatlard. We all know what a TiVo-hating, Moxi-lover you are! That's why your post gets no sympathy here.  (Well, that plus the facts of the case.)


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

I seems like this guy though he was going month to month on his new TIVO since he was told he couldn't transfer the lifetime service from the old TIVO. Why does he want the monthly chages refunded? He should be entitled to a refund of the $199 lifetime transfer fee and continue month to month.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Let's call it absolutely LOUSY TiVo service. TiVo knows, and clearly advertises, that a TiVO box that doesn't connect to the service is a paperweight. It's trivial for TiVo to let the customer know that the box is a brick, and if they don't get a response to deactivate the box and discontinue charging a bill.

TiVo has done this time and time again. They KNOW they're ripping customers off and seem to be satisfied sitting behind their lawyers. Screwing customers is not what TiVo should be about. 

Just because the legal agreements say they can do this does not make it right.

Tivo, you're wrong. Do the right thing and give the customer a full refund. And apologize for screwing him him in the first place.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

ewilts said:


> Let's call it absolutely LOUSY TiVo service. TiVo knows, and clearly advertises, that a TiVO box that doesn't connect to the service is a paperweight. It's trivial for TiVo to let the customer know that the box is a brick, and if they don't get a response to deactivate the box and discontinue charging a bill.


Nonsense. TiVo is not a babysitting service and shouldn't be expected to watch over anyone. People need to be responsible for themselves rather than finding someone else to blame for the problems that they caused for themselves.

The bonehead crying victim in the article should shut up and and accept that the lesson he should be learning only cost him about $340 that was spread out over time rather than one lump sum.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

It would be nice to get the whole story from the complainer. He remembers it the way he wants to. Tivo was very clear on this promotion that the lifetime would transfer to the new box for $199 and the old box would get 1 year of free service. Then after the year.... the service on the old box would be the normal rate per month.

I had this same deal. I put a reminder on my PC and when the year was up... I canceled service on the old box. It was simple... I just followed the rules and did what I was supposed to. If he wanted to avoid this situation then he could have just followed the rules.

It's sad that people think that if they complain loud enough that they can make companies do whatever they want to avoid bad PR. This guy should be ashamed of himself. Broken Tivo? You have to be kidding... Tivo would not have let him transfer the box on the promotion if it were broken (the box had to be able to call in). 

I do commend Tivo for trying to help the guy out by giving him new products to enjoy with his new Tivo and for offering him 6 months of cash. Both of which he is not entitled to.

Edit: @fatlard Where did it say that Tivo was admitting to being wrong? You really should not put false titles up here like that. I think a mod should edit it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dlfl said:


> Let's face it fatlard.


Jeez, just because he's hopelessly wrong is no reason to call him names!

Oh, wait...never mind.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Also, I'll bet this guy sold that old box just like so many people did back then. And then he forgot all about it... thought it was some other persons problem. Think again buddy.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ewilts said:


> Let's call it absolutely LOUSY TiVo service. TiVo knows, and clearly advertises, that a TiVO box that doesn't connect to the service is a paperweight. It's trivial for TiVo to let the customer know that the box is a brick, and if they don't get a response to deactivate the box and discontinue charging a bill.
> .......


The software, computer and administrative resources for TiVo to do this may be relatively trivial but not zero. Perhaps it would cost $0.25 per month per customer, who knows? I suspect if you polled most customers whether they want to pay that much more on their subscriptions for this protection the answer would be overwhelmingly "no". I suppose it could be offered as an extra cost option for those interested but I wouldn't blame TiVo for not wanting to bother with this additional complication for such a minor thing.

If you don't want the [milk | ice cream | Netflix | insurance | telephone | TiVo] delivered, then cancel it. Don't expect to come along years later and ask for a refund because you didn't use the [milk | ice cream | Netflix | insurance | telephone | TiVo].


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

The rational thing to do would be to look at your frigging credit card bill every once in a while.

_
"Give me the three years back," he said. "Just give me the $12.95 I was paying as an overage for those years and then I'm happy. That's what I think would be the rational thing to do. They just don't seem to want to do it." _


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I like how the article sort of implies that "lifetime service" meant for his lifetime.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

magnus said:


> Broken Tivo? You have to be kidding... Tivo would not have let him transfer the box on the promotion if it were broken (the box had to be able to call in).


Unless they made a mistake or an exception for him and did it anyway. Was it a transfer of LIFETIME service or a transfer of lifetime SERVICE?

Tivo could have also known that the old box wasn't dialing in, and suspended service on it automatically six months after he called in. Tivo would then stop charging him. Then Tivo could refund six months of service, and all would be well.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> .........Tivo could have also known that the old box wasn't dialing in, and suspended service on it automatically six months after he called in. Tivo would then stop charging him. Then Tivo could refund six months of service, and all would be well.


You must have missed posts 7 and 12.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

magnus said:


> The rational thing to do would be to look at your frigging credit card bill every once in a while.
> 
> _
> "Give me the three years back," he said. "Just give me the $12.95 I was paying as an overage for those years and then I'm happy. That's what I think would be the rational thing to do. They just don't seem to want to do it." _


TiVo should have done a slightly different promo of 12 months free and then the box stops working unless you call and reup for service on it. However magazines found out long ago you get more subscriptions by just assuming people still want the subscription.

That said - TiVo clearly indicated the promo details to those who do things rationally. at the end of 12 free months the old box reverts to monthly at whatever monthly rate applies. The box can be canceled at any time with no termination penalty. A rational person would have called in and asked TiVo what the charge was and then canceled and likely gotten a credit for the month or two. Bear in mind that the guy had 2 boxes - one that worked and he had paid 199$ to transfer lifetime, and one that did not work. Clearly the 12.95 was not on top of the lifetime sub so it was clearly for the broken box. An irrational person lets such a charge slide for 2 years and then finally starts complaining that he should not have been paying it. Frankly I would not have wanted to embarrass myself publicly by admitting to the ineptness he admitted to.

So Fatlard - just how was TiVo wrong in any of this?


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

There are 2 problems here. First, the guy was an idiot for paying that bill for so long, not knowing what it was. Second, nothing should autobill without advanced notice and an explanation of what it is for (not saying this didn't happen, but clearly the guy was clueless). A lot can happen in a year, you could die, end up in the hospital, etc. They should be required to get some confirmation prior to autobilling a year later.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So Fatlard - just how was TiVo wrong in any of this?


That's easy. Tivo was charging him for a service he wasn't using. No automated phone calls or postcards or letters inquiring why the old Tivo wasn't dialing in. No automatic suspension of service for the old box. This isn't babysitting. Tivo knew he wasn't using the service, yet they were charging him anyway. It's borderline illegal.

Magazines are open-ended. You don't know if the recipient reads the magazines or not. Plus, most of the time the renewal isn't automatic. Actually it's the opposite, they usually send you all kinds of letters and they even attached a special "final issue" cover in big red letters, urging you to renew.

And you can't assume the Tivo CS rep. told him exactly what the deal was. We all know about CS roulette.

Did the guy screw up? Sure. Did Tivo take advantage of him? Yes.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

fatlard said:


> http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...20-problem-laurence-20100620,0,7754995.column
> 
> Story showed up on the Chicago Tribune Problem Solvers. Another reason Tivo rather deal with bad PR rather than issue a refund. Instead they state their system will only allow them to go back 6 months.
> 
> Another customer lost.


So TiVo has to pay for the gross ignorance of a customer?


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> That's easy. Tivo was charging him for a service he wasn't using. No automated phone calls or postcards or letters inquiring why the old Tivo wasn't dialing in. No automatic suspension of service for the old box. This isn't babysitting. Tivo knew he wasn't using the service, yet they were charging him anyway. It's borderline illegal.
> 
> Magazines are open-ended. You don't know if the recipient reads the magazines or not. Plus, most of the time the renewal isn't automatic. Actually it's the opposite, they usually send you all kinds of letters and they even attached a special "final issue" cover in big red letters, urging you to renew.
> 
> ...


By your statement he can not read. It shows up on your bank statement every month. You are responsible to read your bank statement not tivo.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

And it's not like the servers at TiVo monitor all the TSNs and sound an alarm when a unit doesn't call in.
Only after knowing about the problem can TiVo go back and look at logs to see the DVR status.
It took this guy *two* years for him to bring it up to TiVo.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?

For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


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## buddhawood (Oct 9, 2000)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


Well said!


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

If I got billed for a TiVo that was no longer in use, I'd know in the first month. Unlike the guy in the article, I read my credit card statements. TiVo did nothing wrong here, and I think they went beyond what they needed to do by refunding the six months. If I stop reading a magazine, they don't give me my money back. It's the customer's job to cancel a service they aren't using.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


:up:


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I agree 1000% with this. The guy is a moron for even bringing it up. It's as if he thinks that he was somehow wronged but all he had to do was follow the rules.



ZeoTiVo said:


> An irrational person lets such a charge slide for 2 years and then finally starts complaining that he should not have been paying it. Frankly I would not have wanted to embarrass myself publicly by admitting to the ineptness he admitted to.
> 
> So Fatlard - just how was TiVo wrong in any of this?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


Well you already know what I think (see post 12). My guess matched your reality pretty closely!


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I like the analogy because it's simply...well.... logical.



TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


One big difference though, when my anual membership is up, the gym membership services calls me and asks me if I want to renew.

Again, this guy was clueless to let it go on as long as he did and I think the best he should have expected to get back was the 6 months he got. At the same time, I don't think anything should autobill after a YEAR without some notificiation explaining what it is for and some form of acknowledgement from the customer.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

killzone said:


> One big difference though, when my anual membership is up, the gym membership services calls me and asks me if I want to renew.


I pay for the gym monthly by auto debit so the analogy holds.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?
> 
> For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.


TiVo should reimburse you for the months you don't use your gym membership.


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

Kablemodem said:


> TiVo should reimburse you for the months you don't use your gym membership.


:up:


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

petew said:


> I pay for the gym monthly by auto debit so the analogy holds.


Monthly is different than getting a bill out of the blue a YEAR later. I would hope I could remember from month to month, what I am being billed for, but to receive an auto debit a year later...

Your forgetting, he might have been billed monthly, but those bills didn't start until a year after he transfered his service. That is long enough that you wouldn't necessarilly remember what it is for. Especially if you have pages of charges on your statement.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

killzone said:


> Monthly is different than getting a bill out of the blue a YEAR later. I would hope I could remember from month to month, what I am being billed for, but to receive an auto debit a year later...


I think if it takes you more than six months to figure out you're paying TiVo every month on your credit card bill, you pretty much get what's coming to you...


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think if it takes you more than six months to figure out you're paying TiVo every month on your credit card bill, you pretty much get what's coming to you...


Agreed. But if you recall, he thought it was a legitimate charge. It wasn't until he called Tivo (which he should have done right away) that he realized what it was for. There should at least be an option to opt out (at the beginning) of the autobilling that occurs a year later and instead get a bill 30 days in advance of when it's due. If it's an autobill, most people are not going to remember to call and cancel a few days in advance.

Is there an option to decline the 1 year of free service?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

killzone said:


> Agreed. But if you recall, he thought it was a legitimate charge. It wasn't until he called Tivo (which he should have done right away) that he realized what it was for. There should at least be an option to opt out (at the beginning) of the autobilling that occurs a year later and instead get a bill 30 days in advance of when it's due. If it's an autobill, most people are not going to remember to call and cancel a few days in advance.
> 
> Is there an option to decline the 1 year of free service?


This is why normal people do something to remember to call. You write yourself a note on a calendar, put a reminder on the PC. Bottom line there is no excuse for not remembering. The tools are there to make sure you contact TiVo to cancel.

I have two monthly boxes that end this Summer. I have it marked on my physical calendar, and my digital calendar. FOr me to call. I will cancel the Premiere XL so I won't get any more monthly charges, and for the Premiere, I just need to set it up for Lifetime service so it automatically switches to lifetime when the monthly runs out.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

The guy paid $199 to transfer service to the new box and then thought the $12.95 was for the new box too?

He's an idiot who wasn't paying attention to his expenses.

And since the old box was broken and disconnected, he shouldn't have intended to wait a YEAR to call to cancel, he should have called immediately. TiVo's offer to give him free service on that box was pointless.

The guy got charged $199 and $12.95 right away and had no clue why, or didn't notice, or was too lazy to inquire.

Then he was too lazy or didn't understand to cancel the old box right away.

And then he forgot to cancel within the first 12 months and got charged.

Every part of this is his fault. And they have him 6mo back and some free swag, more than they should have done.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

killzone said:


> Agreed. But if you recall, he thought it was a legitimate charge. It wasn't until he called Tivo (which he should have done right away) that he realized what it was for.


he had one working box with lifetime on it - so the above would be his moron part.


> There should at least be an option to opt out (at the beginning) of the autobilling that occurs a year later and instead get a bill 30 days in advance of when it's due. If it's an autobill, most people are not going to remember to call and cancel a few days in advance.
> 
> Is there an option to decline the 1 year of free service?


no advance notice but people have called and said they did not want the service or did not have the box anymore etc. and the service was stopped and a credit issued for the 1 or 2 months of service. since we are talking a minor amount of money on the charge I find that process just fine and would rather TiVo spend its resources elsewhere.

Now as to the 1 year free service - that was a big miss to not give folks a way to opt out of the free year and then autobill. I recall several posts on folks trying to not take that option sicne they KNEW they were mothballing the unit. That was TiVo trying to keep subs active at the cost of things like this.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

It is not the responsibility of TiVo to verify that your unit is working and connecting to the TiVo service.

If people were not so stupid (yes this customer was an idiot) when it comes to their credit card bills then things like this would not happen. How long does it really take to look at your credit card receipt and verify that the charges on it are correct. My wife and I use credit cards for nearly everything and pay them off when the bill comes. Each month we keep our receipts and verify the bills, it takes maybe 15 minutes for all of the cards.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JTYoung1 said:


> It is not the responsibility of TiVo to verify that your unit is working and connecting to the TiVo service.
> 
> If people were not so stupid (yes this customer was an idiot) when it comes to their credit card bills then things like this would not happen. How long does it really take to look at your credit card receipt and verify that the charges on it are correct. My wife and I use credit cards for nearly everything and pay them off when the bill comes. Each month we keep our receipts and verify the bills, it takes maybe 15 minutes for all of the cards.


I look on Quicken as charges come in but i missed a $9.99 charge that started coming in each month for some travel bull, 13 months later i asked my wife about it, she had no idea, called the co and they quickly gave me credit for all 13 months. Many people don't give careful examination to small charges on their CC, they just keep paying them, some co.s make money on this known oversight. I don't know if the ethics of co. doing this is off base, making money by just counting on a % of people not checking small charges.
I get about 100 charges a month now that grocery stores take CC and we charge all other purchases that we can. (good reward programs on my CC). Hard to examine all, but it is my fault if I let a incorrect charge stay on my account.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Kablemodem said:


> TiVo should reimburse you for the months you don't use your gym membership.


Poor struggling TiVo? Ridiculous! Take it out of the BP $20B.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

If this guy was told that he could not transfer the lifetime service because his original tivo was broken, and that's the official policy, then the $199 transfer charge was not authorized. Obviously this guy thought he was going month to month on the new tivo, but then he was never billed the monthly charge for a year.

Tivo should either let him stick with the monthly plan he thought he had and refund the $199 transfer fee, or let him stay with the transfer plan they provided. He's much better off with the transfer plan because he still gets some money refunded and he has no more monthly charges.


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## PillowPants (Jun 8, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Poor struggling TiVo? Ridiculous! Take it out of the BP $20B.


BP should reimburse tivo for reimbursing that guy his gym membership money


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

magnus said:


> I like the analogy because it's simply...well.... logical.


There is nothing logical about comparing something a person has to actually physically put thought and effort into doing (going to the gym) with something that happens automatically without any thought or effort (A Tivo doing it's thing). As with most analogies, it's just bad.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> I have two monthly boxes that end this Summer. I have it marked on my physical calendar, and my digital calendar. FOr me to call. I will cancel the Premiere XL so I won't get any more monthly charges, and for the Premiere, I just need to set it up for Lifetime service so it automatically switches to lifetime when the monthly runs out.


Why wait to cancel or change the subscriptions?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

I really can't believe that any adult with even a minimum of common sense would believe that the OP or anyone else, shouldn't be held accountable for their own negligence.


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> I really can't believe that any adult with even a minimum of common sense would believe that the OP or anyone else, shouldn't be held accountable for their own negligence.


I think it's agreed that he was a moron for missing it as long as he did. I'm just surprised that more people don't think it's a scam that Tivo forces you to take "free" liftime on a box that you are most likely trashing or giving away, and will autobill a year later if you forget to call and cancel (which I'm sure happens more often than people remember to cancel).


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

What are you talking about "free" lifetime??? You did not have to keep the free year at all... they would have let you cancel it right then. It was simple just DON'T take the free year.

In fact, even if his S1 was broken then he could have changed the TSN to a S2 (hell even another S3 if he had wanted to) and used it. So, even if his S1 was broken the whole time... that's really not an excuse.



killzone said:


> I think it's agreed that he was a moron for missing it as long as he did. I'm just surprised that more people don't think it's a scam that Tivo forces you to take "free" liftime on a box that you are most likely trashing or giving away, and will autobill a year later if you forget to call and cancel (which I'm sure happens more often than people remember to cancel).


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> ...Obviously this guy thought he was going month to month on the new tivo, but then he was never billed the monthly charge for a year...


So why didn't the guy make a fuss when he wasn't charged that first year? Do you think he was snickering to himself, thinking he got one over on TiVo with getting "free" service for a year on the new box? IMO, TiVo should have refunded him nothing.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I believe there should/could be a TiVo Msg sent, for accounts on a yearly renewal. If that would be built into the processing of an account it would be seamless

This might cost TiVo some reimbursed gym fees, or what have you.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> think it's agreed that he was a moron for missing it as long as he did. I'm just surprised that more people don't think it's a scam that Tivo forces you to take "free" liftime on a box that you are most likely trashing or giving away, and will autobill a year later if you forget to call and cancel (which I'm sure happens more often than people remember to cancel).


Some people are not morons, they just have too many small charges on their credit card statements to check them one by one every month. I'm doing business with about a dozen companies and have over thousand transactions on some of my credit cards each month. It is not practical for me to spend a lot of time to check if I have erroneous bill for $10-15 if it comes from the company I'm doing business with. I normally scan my statements for the companies names I don't recognize and big ticket items. That does not make it right for companies I'm doing business with to rip me off and charge me for goods or services I haven't received. 
What TiVo is doing is not new. It has been done by Columbia records, Times books and all kinds of book clubs for years. "Get 12 records for a penny and we will ship you selection of the month automatically unless you send us post card that you don't want it". Same principle, certain percentage of people will forget to cancel and will pay the bill for something they don't want.
Legal? Yes. Sleazy scam? Of course.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

samo said:


> ...........
> What TiVo is doing is not new. It has been done by Columbia records, Times books and all kinds of book clubs for years. "Get 12 records for a penny and we will ship you selection of the month automatically unless you send us post card that you don't want it". Same principle, certain percentage of people will forget to cancel and will pay the bill for something they don't want.
> Legal? Yes. Sleazy scam? Of course.


So you think "There oughta be a law..." ? If not.... what solution would you propose to stop these "scams"? Please don't answer that you propose people/companies be more ethical -- that's not a practical choice.

I'm against more laws. We already have too many laws (and resulting bureacracies to implement them) trying to protect people from the consequences of their lack of due diligence. The overhead of these laws makes everything go slower and cost more and, worst of all, they aren't effective anyway. Latest example: gulf oil spill, which should not have happened if the MMS (now renamed) did their job.

So what -- other than "buyer beware" -- is the solution?

BTW, lumping TiVo in with Columbia Records and Time Books just doesn't feel right to me, although I can't explain why.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I never had a problem with Colombia records over thirty years ago. And today it's even easier to deal with these things.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dlfl said:


> BTW, lumping TiVo in with Columbia Records and Time Books just doesn't feel right to me, although I can't explain why.


Columbia records was trainable. All you had to do was not return the monthly notices a few times and then refuse the packages. If you refused the package the post office shipped it back to the sender and Columbia records could not bill you. It took about 2X and they put you in the special group that did not have to return monthly notices and only got shipments when they actually ordered them.

As for TiVo and this auto bill issue well I generally hate auto bill stuff but if it is legit it sure is convenient. If TiVo was trying to scam people or actually trying to provide a helpful service is up for debate. My take is people should learn to manage their money which includes monitoring charge cards and bank statements.

Thanks


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Some people are not morons, they just have too many small charges on their credit card statements to check them one by one every month.


from linked article


> A year later, a $12.95 charge began appearing each month on his American Express bill.
> 
> The Chicago resident thought he was being charged for service on his new TiVo. That wasn't the case.


 as I said - he had two boxes - one was broken and not being used and the other had the lifetime transferred to it for 199$.
So *he clearly knew the charge was happening and he only had one working box and that had lifetime on it*. You tell me what you would do with such facts ready to hand. You know it would jump out at you that TiVo is indeed a company that should NOT be showing up on your credit card. So if the answer is "not call and let the charge continue" then you get what you deserve 2 or 3 years later.

The only thing I would like to have seen done differently is that TiVo gave folks a way to do the 199$ lifetime transfer and also be able to decline the 1 year free service if they so indicated.
Some people managed to decline that year of free service but they had to really get insistent and hold firm usually through a couple of CSR folks they got passed to.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Columbia records was trainable. All you had to do was not return the monthly notices a few times and then refuse the packages. If you refused the package the post office shipped it back to the sender and Columbia records could not bill you. It took about 2X and they put you in the special group that did not have to return monthly notices and only got shipments when they actually ordered them.


All you had to do, once you fulfillment your agreement, you could call them and tell them and get put in the special group. I haven't looked to see if they have such a category for the DVD club.



> As for TiVo and this auto bill issue well I generally hate auto bill stuff but if it is legit it sure is convenient. If TiVo was trying to scam people or actually trying to provide a helpful service is up for debate. My take is people should learn to manage their money which includes monitoring charge cards and bank statements.
> 
> Thanks


I prefer the auto-bill to credit card. It is super convenient. I do sit and check records every week or so. When your credit card gets billed, you have so much more power than if they charge a debit card / checking account.


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

magnus said:


> What are you talking about "free" lifetime??? You did not have to keep the free year at all... they would have let you cancel it right then. It was simple just DON'T take the free year.
> 
> In fact, even if his S1 was broken then he could have changed the TSN to a S2 (hell even another S3 if he had wanted to) and used it. So, even if his S1 was broken the whole time... that's really not an excuse.


So there was an option to opt out? Yes or No? Someone said there was no option to opt out.

If that's the case, then either he really is a moron, or the CSR did not explain things to him correctly (about the free 1 year and the autobill that would occurr after).

Again, autobill is nice for monthly bills, but for things that come a year later it's designed to "get" people who forget or don't notice, and let it go for a while before they correct it.


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

samo said:


> Some people are not morons, they just have too many small charges on their credit card statements to check them one by one every month. I'm doing business with about a dozen companies and have over thousand transactions on some of my credit cards each month. It is not practical for me to spend a lot of time to check if I have erroneous bill for $10-15 if it comes from the company I'm doing business with. I normally scan my statements for the companies names I don't recognize and big ticket items. That does not make it right for companies I'm doing business with to rip me off and charge me for goods or services I haven't received.
> What TiVo is doing is not new. It has been done by Columbia records, Times books and all kinds of book clubs for years. "Get 12 records for a penny and we will ship you selection of the month automatically unless you send us post card that you don't want it". Same principle, certain percentage of people will forget to cancel and will pay the bill for something they don't want.
> Legal? Yes. Sleazy scam? Of course.


I'm not saying everyone that misses such a thing is a moron. I certainly have pages and pages on my CC bill too. But to miss it for as long as he did (over 2 years), that is plainly his fault.

The grey area is where some people are saying he should get a full refund since they billed him for a service they never provided. While others say, they provided the service, he just didn't use it. The biggest issue is really how long he let it go before trying to get the refund. While I think Tivo is wrong in how they do this stuff, I still think asking for 2+ years of a refund is a bit much (they did give him 6 months back afterall).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

killzone said:


> But to miss it for as long as he did (over 2 years), that is plainly his fault.


thats the part that had me call moron - he knew the charge was happening from when it started, he just decided it was legit and let it go.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> So why didn't the guy make a fuss when he wasn't charged that first year? Do you think he was snickering to himself, thinking he got one over on TiVo with getting "free" service for a year on the new box?


Yes



orangeboy said:


> IMO, TiVo should have refunded him nothing.


The guy claims he was told that he could not transfer lifetime service from a nonfuctioning TIVO and that is indeed the policy. Tivo billed him $199 to transfer the service. That charge was clearly not authorized. The acutual TIVO policy supports what this guy is claiming.

I think he came out ahead on the deal even if he doesn't get all his monthly payments refunded. Maybe on that basis, Tivo doesn't feel obligated to refund.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

At the time, several people on this forum were allowed to move lifetime to a Series3 box with the $199 fee and the free year of service on the old box. This is not unusual at all.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I agree the customer is always responsible for ensuring what is being billed on their CC is correct.

My only question is, was 12.95 the appropriate monthly price? Shouldn't this have been the MSD price?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Arcady said:


> At the time, several people on this forum were allowed to move lifetime to a Series3 box with the $199 fee and the free year of service on the old box. This is not unusual at all.


more than just several people on this forum - it was a deal that TiVo was making to all TiVo subscribers for moving to the S3.



jrtroo said:


> My only question is, was 12.95 the appropriate monthly price? Shouldn't this have been the MSD price?


since he had not actively subscribed and made a year or more commitment he would not get the MSD price - 12.95 was the default month to month price.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> I agree the customer is always responsible for ensuring what is being billed on their CC is correct.
> 
> My only question is, was 12.95 the appropriate monthly price? Shouldn't this have been the MSD price?


That was actually a big beef of MANY users, myself included, I took advantage of the S3 lifetime transfer, and then the first of the THD lifetime transfers under the mistaken thought that lifetime would not be offered again, back then it's what we all thought.

Indeed the first month after the 12 free months BOTH units billed at $12.95 even though I should have gotten the $6.95 rate, it was very annoying and took a call to customer support to get fixed. However I actually look at my credit card statements unlike the guy in the article.

Diane


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

Practical or not, it is still your responsibility to make sure the charges on your statement are charges that should be there. It doesn't matter if you have 10 or 10,000 charges.

Just last night we checked our bill and I had a charge for a S2 I canceled in May when I replaced it with a HDXL, what messed it up apparently was the fact that I changed the credit card on my bill during the same phone call. It took 1 phone call to straighten out the problem and they are issuing the credit. 
Between the 3-4 credit cards we regularly use we have a few hundred charges to go through to make sure they are correct, but we do it to make sure that we aren't paying for something we didn't want or get. 
Also if we had to write checks for everything we'd probably spend more time writing checks and balancing the checkbook.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Well, clearly almost all the posters in this thread believe in individual responsibility, rather than "society must protect me from myself". If only that were true of Americans in general, or of posters in the "whiner" threads on these forums.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Indeed the first month after the 12 free months BOTH units billed at $12.95 even though I should have gotten the $6.95 rate, it was very annoying and took a call to customer support to get fixed.


Like I said this also was not broken. TiVo clearly stated in the transfer agreement that the unit would start billing at the applicable month to month rate after the year was up. That _month to month_ rate is the regular monthly rate, not the MSD rate no matter how many boxes you have in service. So the phone call you made told them you agreed to a year or more of service and any early termination fees if you stopped service. Agreeing to a term of service is a specific part of gettinng MSD rate.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There's a legitimate discussion/argument to be had on this topic, but isn't it past time the trollish title of this thread, which is a flat-out lie, is changed?


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There's a legitimate discussion/argument to be had on this topic, but isn't it past time the trollish title of this thread, which is a flat-out lie, is changed?


You expect the OP, fatlard, to actually be truthful in is posts? He is a Moxi suck up and nothing more. IMO he should have been banned from this board some time ago for posting his Moxi crap on boards here that he had no business posting it on.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

JTYoung1 said:


> You expect the OP, fatlard, to actually be truthful in is posts? He is a Moxi suck up and nothing more. IMO he should have been banned from this board some time ago for posting his Moxi crap on boards here that he had no business posting it on.


I think a discussion of other model DVRs is appropriate.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> I think a discussion of other model DVRs is appropriate.


_Discussion_ is fine.

fatlard's posts were essentially spam and created a back and forth that took any thread he posted in off topic.

--edit--

And now we're doing it in this thread, too! Arrgh!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> I think a discussion of other model DVRs is appropriate.


Fatlard is not interested in discussion of other DVR brands and his posts have little to do with furthering legitimate discussion. Of course if you call him what he is then.......................
this forum is just going to the dogs faster each day


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm not saying TiVo is 'wrong' in these situations, what they are doing is consistent with policy and perfectly legal.

But it is stupid. They can easily verify if the tivo in question hasn't dialed in for a year. If they KNOW that the person hasn't USED the service they are charging for, a good company would just refund the customer.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm not saying TiVo is 'wrong' in these situations, what they are doing is consistent with policy and perfectly legal.
> 
> But it is stupid. They can easily verify if the tivo in question hasn't dialed in for a year. If they KNOW that the person hasn't USED the service they are charging for, a good company would just refund the customer.


If a customer wants to pay for the service, why would a company refund the money if a customer doesn't use them? The customer chose to pay them and chose not to use the service.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm not saying TiVo is 'wrong' in these situations, what they are doing is consistent with policy and perfectly legal.
> 
> But it is stupid. They can easily verify if the tivo in question hasn't dialed in for a year. If they KNOW that the person hasn't USED the service they are charging for, a good company would just refund the customer.


Even if it hadn't dialed in, an active sub still allows for MRV use. A person could be using the second unit simply for that.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Even if it hadn't dialed in, an active sub still allows for MRV use. A person could be using the second unit simply for that.


I thought there was a cut off for how long the TiVo would keep working without connecting to confirm it was still subscribed.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> I thought there was a cut off for how long the TiVo would keep working without connecting to confirm it was still subscribed.


You are correct, it's less than about 35 days.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> If a customer wants to pay for the service, why would a company refund the money if a customer doesn't use them? The customer chose to pay them and chose not to use the service.


Becuase, obviously, in this situation the customer didn't intend to pay for a service and not use it.

The customer didin't choose to pay them, the customer screwed up and didn't understand the contract. Or maybe didn't remember a YEAR LATER to cancel. (I mean who likes auto-renewing contracts anyway...?)

The customer didn't receive the service they were paying for, so it didn't cost TiVo anything except a bunch of bad publicity. I get it, TiVo is "RIGHT", but so what? Refunding the customers money would also have been the right thing to do if you care about how you do business....


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm not saying TiVo is 'wrong' in these situations, what they are doing is consistent with policy and perfectly legal.
> 
> But it is stupid. They can easily verify if the tivo in question hasn't dialed in for a year. If they KNOW that the person hasn't USED the service they are charging for, a good company would just refund the customer.


How easily (can they verify etc.)? Do you know the details of what they would have to do to verify that? If their systems support a CSR pulling that info up on their screen in 30 secs or less, then I would agree with you -- but I strongly suspect it isn't that easy, in which case I disagree -- TiVo shouldn't have to go to any greater effort than that to protect a customer from their own lack of diligence.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

dlfl said:


> How easily (can they verify etc.)? Do you know the details of what they would have to do to verify that? If their systems support a CSR pulling that info up on their screen in 30 secs or less, then I would agree with you -- but I strongly suspect it isn't that easy, in which case I disagree -- TiVo shouldn't have to go to any greater effort than that to protect a customer from their own lack of diligence.


Yes, their tech support can tell the last time the tivo called in...


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> Yes, their tech support can tell the last time the tivo called in...


It still does mean the subscriber wants to cancel the service. I going to cancel my gym. I have not been there in 3 months. They keep a log of who uses the gym every day but they did not cancel my membership because i did use the gym. It was my fault but I thought I might be able to go back but it not the case.
It the subscribers fault it not up to Tivo to babysit you. Just because you have a lot of items on your bill and you do not look at every item, again it not Tivo fault it is your fault. It is your responsibly to make sure you are being billed correct every month.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Yeah, I *wish* I had enough money where I didn't have to scrutinize my credit card bills every month.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> It the subscribers fault it not up to Tivo to babysit you. Just because you have a lot of items on your bill and you do not look at every item, again it not Tivo fault it is your fault. It is your responsibly to make sure you are being billed correct every month.


You can not be at fault and still be flexible enough to make exceptions to your policy. Or, you can not be at fault and make foolish hard line decisions that result in negative press in negative newspaper articles.

It's called common sense, most companies including, apparently, TiVo don't have it. The negative press cost of this is way more than whatever few months of service would've cost, not even counting the original customer they probably lost.

And is it outside of the realm of possibility that a TiVo CSR told him something incorrect?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Yeah, I *wish* I had enough money where I didn't have to scrutinize my credit card bills every month.


Did you even read the article? The guy called tivo when his tivo broke and asked if he could transfer service, they said NO.

He thought he was paying $12.95 for the replaced TiVo. In fact, they transferred the TiVo and left the complimentary 12 months on the BROKEN TIVO.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> You can not be at fault and still be flexible enough to make exceptions to your policy. Or, you can not be at fault and make foolish hard line decisions that result in negative press in negative newspaper articles.
> 
> It's called common sense, most companies including, apparently, TiVo don't have it. The negative press cost of this is way more than whatever few months of service would've cost, not even counting the original customer they probably lost.
> 
> And is it outside of the realm of possibility that a TiVo CSR told him something incorrect?


Yes people are going to read the story and guess what they will go with tivo on this. People who have common sense will realize it the subscribers fault.The was to dumb to read his bank statements. His story is going to make him a jackass.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> Did you even read the article? The guy called tivo when his tivo broke and asked if he could transfer service, they said NO.
> 
> He thought he was paying $12.95 for the replaced TiVo. In fact, they transferred the TiVo and left the complimentary 12 months on the BROKEN TIVO.


Yes, I did read the article. Note what I have bolded in this excerpt.



> *The way Laurence remembers it*, he called the company's customer service line and asked if he could transfer his lifetime service agreement to a new TiVo. A customer service agent told him no.


That's his side of the story and I don't believe it.
I do believe his memory is faulty.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

Ok, as for TiVoStephen's reply, I mostly agree. However, on June 5th, I got the following email from TiVo:

"We've noticed your TiVo DVR hasn't connected to the TiVo service in several months. Are you ready for the TiVo Premiere box?"

This was after I bought the Premeire, and disconnected my Series 3 to get ready to sell it. So that proves TiVo already has the means to notify us when a box hasn't called in.

I am NOT saying they should notifiy a user a box hasn't connected to the mothership, but I am disputing the comment "For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work." If they can notify me that mybox hasn't connected for an upsell, the system is already in place to notify users a given box hasn't connected.

That being said, I'd have been sure to question the charges after ONE month, let alone years!


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I think you had to opt-in to receive an email like that. So, not everyone would get it.



SoBayJake said:


> Ok, as for TiVoStephen's reply, I mostly agree. However, on June 5th, I got the following email from TiVo:
> 
> "We've noticed your TiVo DVR hasn't connected to the TiVo service in several months. Are you ready for the TiVo Premiere box?"
> 
> ...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TiVoStephen said:


> Just curious what folks think here. I pay a fee to a gym every month, but the last time I managed to get into the gym was years ago. The gym "knows" I don't use it (because they scan your card when you enter). Should they notify me that I'm paying for a service I'm not using?


So what if your first gym membership card was lost and they told you that you couldn't transfer it to a new card, so you bought a new gym membership. But later you found out that you now had payed for TWO memberships.

And you explained the mistake to the manager, who could verify that you had only been using the second card, but he refused to work with you on it?


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> So what if your first gym membership card was lost and they told you that you couldn't transfer it to a new card, so you bought a new gym membership. But later you found out that you now had payed for TWO memberships.
> 
> And you explained the mistake to the manager, who could verify that you had only been using the second card, but he refused to work with you on it?


The second membership would show up on your bank statement as did the first. If you looked at your bank statement you could have taken that with the first membership charge statement. Once again it was the subscribers fault for not checking his bank statements.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Your analogy just does not work. The membership for a gym is for a person. You lose your card and they will give you a new one.

Membership on a device is an entirely different thing.



Adam1115 said:


> So what if your first gym membership card was lost and they told you that you couldn't transfer it to a new card, so you bought a new gym membership. But later you found out that you now had payed for TWO memberships.
> 
> And you explained the mistake to the manager, who could verify that you had only been using the second card, but he refused to work with you on it?


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## newskilz (Jul 11, 2008)

magnus said:


> Your analogy just does not work. The membership for a gym is for a person. You lose your card and they will give you a new one.
> 
> Membership on a device is an entirely different thing.


My humble opinion:

I believe the point was that you can have a gym membership, not use it (even for up to a year or more depending on contract), and you will still be billed, with no refunds. He was pinpointing that particular area of the"dispute" the OP is having. My understanding is gym membership use is around 25-50% of actual paying members, the gyms do not mind this. Of course I believe in their contract they say you will be billed monthly regardless of use until you cancel the service. I'm no expert, I don't use a gym. This analogy exclusively for the billing part even though not being used is the same to me. Granted there are a lot of other factors that we are all presuming and or how OP remembers it. It does seem possibly unfair, but again it's how the OP recalls it. I've had no problems with membership, so I guess I can't really say much.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> The second membership would show up on your bank statement as did the first. If you looked at your bank statement you could have taken that with the first membership charge statement. Once again it was the subscribers fault for not checking his bank statements.


The first membership was a lifetime one, it wouldn't show up on his bank statements.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> The first membership was a lifetime one, it wouldn't show up on his bank statements.


Only if he paid by cash then he would have a recept for the membership. If by check or credit card you get a statement. 
This not about membership it about paying by a month. If he looked at his statement 2 years ago it would have stated Tivo $12.95. At that time he could called Tivo and got it taken care of.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> I think you had to opt-in to receive an email like that. So, not everyone would get it.


Opt-in or not, doesn't make a difference. TiVo stated they didn't have a system to do that, but they proved they did.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

SoBayJake said:


> Opt-in or not, doesn't make a difference. TiVo stated they didn't have a[*n automated*] system to do that...


Fixed your post...
Go back and reference post #23.

As for someone getting an e-mail that their Tivo had not called in, that was most likely sales reps probing TSN's and contacting the subscribers for revenue purposes when they found boxes that had not called in.
A manual process.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Fixed your post...
> Go back and reference post #23.
> 
> As for someone getting an e-mail that their Tivo had not called in, that was most likely sales reps probing TSN's and contacting the subscribers for revenue purposes when they found boxes that had not called in.
> A manual process.


I am not disputing the fact that TiVo doesn't have the automated system. I am disputing the complexity of developing such a system.

No way that's a manual process. The query would be something as easy as "if lastConnect < (someDate) do X"

Writing an automated system do send those emails out would be trivial, and they've done it. If they have sales reps sitting there sifting through databases querying random TSNs, it's no wonder they are slow to get anything done.

TiVo claims there's no automated system, that's probably true. But to claim "developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work" seems implausible. I don't even know databases that well, but when a unit connects to the mothership, it already has to identify itself, and the mothership confirms or denies it. All it takes is adding an entry in the database noting the time that TSN connected. Then run the query above. Send an email. Voila.

Sending me an email that my box hasn't connected, and upselling me? That's exactly what I would call intrusive! Not as intrusive as popping up a message on another TiVo on my account (which wouldn't work for people with just one TiVo that is no longer connecting), but the challenge is by no means daunting.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

caddyroger said:


> Only if he paid by cash then he would have a recept for the membership. If by check or credit card you get a statement.
> This not about membership it about paying by a month. If he looked at his statement 2 years ago it would have stated Tivo $12.95. At that time he could called Tivo and got it taken care of.


The guy in the article KNEW he was paying tivo, he was misinformed what he was paying FOR.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> The guy in the article KNEW he was paying tivo, he was misinformed what he was paying FOR.


*You got it*, the rest of this thread is just speculation as to what TiVo should or should not do, TiVo monthly bills (except Lifetime service) and people have to deal with that, 1 2 or 3 year prepaid people all have the same problem if they want to stop the service at the end of the prepaid time. This is the way TiVo does their guide service, don't like it go Lifetime or don't go with TiVo. (Or have Congress pass more laws to protect people that can't manage their money in a safe way, how about a law making it illegal to have any loss on any stock or home you purchase.)


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

And in order for you to receive anything automated.... you would have to opt-in. Get the problem yet????



SoBayJake said:


> I am not disputing the fact that TiVo doesn't have the automated system. I am disputing the complexity of developing such a system.
> 
> No way that's a manual process. The query would be something as easy as "if lastConnect < (someDate) do X"
> 
> ...


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> And in order for you to receive anything automated.... you would have to opt-in. Get the problem yet????


Actually, per Tivo.com ( http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68 ) your argument falls apart. It explicitly states:

"The TiVo DVR collects information from its users, including Anonymous Viewing Information, Diagnostic Information, Commerce Information, and Service Information which is used to keep your TiVo functioning properly.

TiVo does NOT collect or access any Personally Identifiable Viewing Information from your TiVo DVR, UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY GIVE PRIOR CONSENT."

So opt-in or opt-out, they still collect diagnostic and commerce information. Only viewing information is covered via opt-in/out.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

But they won't send you an email like that UNLESS you opt-in.... and so my point is made.

How would they tell you that your Tivo has not connected in X days UNLESS you have given them prior consent by opting in??? On top of that... if you did opt-in... when would you want Tivo to email you??? Every 5 days???

_From Tivo_
Hey dipsh**, you're paying for service but you have not been connecting to Tivo. Please call us so we can make sure that you're okay with paying for service that you MIGHT not be using. If you do not contact us within the next 5 days we will terminate your service because we have not heard from you and we think you MIGHT not want to keep it. BTW, if you are on vacation and forgot to tell us that you might have turned off your Tivo and it won't be connecting then we're sorry if you come home to find that your service has been disconnected. We're sorry but these measures are necessary because some people in the past have been too stupid to keep up with their own bills.

I'm sure that Tivo would word it better but I think you can get the gist. There is not a good way to cover this scenario and you're just grasping at straws here.



SoBayJake said:


> Actually, per Tivo.com ( http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/68 ) your argument falls apart. It explicitly states:
> 
> "The TiVo DVR collects information from its users, including Anonymous Viewing Information, Diagnostic Information, Commerce Information, and Service Information which is used to keep your TiVo functioning properly.
> 
> ...


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> But they won't send you an email like that UNLESS you opt-in.... and so my point is made.


Where does it say that on that page? Opt-in is limited to Personally Identifiable Viewing Information. That's it. By your logic, if your credit card is declined, they can't send you an email if you haven't opted-in.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

magnus said:


> But they won't send you an email like that UNLESS you opt-in.... and so my point is made.


That wasn't even _really_ the point, the original argument was that TiVo CSR's didn't have access to this sort of information, and that giving them this information would be very dificult.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

That was the point... how the heck did you guys not get it? They might be able to do it but under what circumstances? And how often would you receive said email??? Every day?? Every 2 hours??? Every 5 minutes??

How many days would have to pass (where your Tivo did not connect) before you would get this message? 30 days? 5 days? 1 day??

There is more to it than.... it can be done. There is how can it be done without disrupting people who actually pay attention to what is going on in their lives.

So, yes.... you would have to opt-in to something like this because I am sure that there are people (like me) that would not want an email about this every day just because I am out of town.

Then there is the fact that Tivo likely does not have anything that would keep track of who was sent what and when. I guess if Tivo were to provide this service there would be the problem of some jerkweed saying that they never got the email and that it's all Tivo's fault.

In an IT shop, it's not like they are just waiting for someone to come up with a stupid idea to work on. Believe it or not they might actually be working on some of the important items that we want.... like DLNA, multi-room scheduling and more.

I for one, do not want Tivo to work on something like this because there are on a handful of people that are stupid enough to not keep up with their bills. I think that the money could be better spent on other things for the IT department to do.

I'm very surprised that you guys are not seeing the logic of this.



Adam1115 said:


> That wasn't even _really_ the point, the original argument was that TiVo CSR's didn't have access to this sort of information, and that giving them this information would be very dificult.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SoBayJake said:


> All it takes is adding an entry in the database noting the time that TSN connected. Then run the query above. Send an email. Voila.


TiVo actually keeps two distinctly separate sets of info. One has the TSN and specific account info on account type and active or not - logs from the DVRs are sent to this set of data and that is how they can sell anonymous info on viewing habits.

The other has the persons identifying info, email and credit card info, etc. along with TSNs of TiVo DVRs on that account.

since the first one is used every time a DVR calls in TiVo has a wall separating it from the other one with personal identity info. Your last "simple" step of sending that email would mean a connection would have to be made between the two sets of info and that is not something TiVo does lightly as they want to work the data as anonymous, and in good security processes, that means protecting the personal ID info from internal employees that do not need to access it as well. TiVo is not facing a technical hurdle here but a security hurdle.

Folks will just have to be personally accountable for what they the person are being billed for.

PS - I do get emails when my Credit Card is about to expire as that info would be self contained in the set of data that identifies me and my account.



Adam1115 said:


> That wasn't even _really_ the point, the original argument was that TiVo CSR's didn't have access to this sort of information, and that giving them this information would be very dificult.


and this goes the other way in those 2 sets of info  The CSR can get into the personal ID info as that is their job to do so and they should be able to tell you what is being billed or not. BUT, they can likely not say when the last time a particular TSN called in unless it has been deactivated by some other process and thus not allowed to call in.

in all of this people are missing the easy answer by the way. All the guy had to do when he noticed the 12.95 charge was go online - look at his account and the TSNs on the DVRs he had. That would have easily told him what TiVo was charging for. It still would have taken a call to fix the snafu but *he could easily see what is going on billing wise with about 5 minutes of time and no effort.*


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Opting-in has jack to do with your credit card. It has to do with your service and what information they keep track of. It also has to do with emails about promotions, etc...



SoBayJake said:


> Where does it say that on that page? Opt-in is limited to Personally Identifiable Viewing Information. That's it. By your logic, if your credit card is declined, they can't send you an email if you haven't opted-in.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

magnus said:


> Opting-in has jack to do with your credit card. It has to do with your service and what information they keep track of. It also has to do with emails about promotions, etc...


total guess on my part but maybe opting in - lets them fill in name and email address and maybe some demographics if you give them that in the 'anonymous' database that is called into. So that would solve the issue of having an email address but only for folks who opted in. Bad business to only tell some folks and not others.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> Opting-in has jack to do with your credit card. It has to do with your service and what information they keep track of. It also has to do with emails about promotions, etc...


Did you even read anything at the link I posted? Opting-in has to deal with PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE VIEWING INFORMATION. That's it. Connection history, diagnostic information, etc. is still tracked, collected, logged, etc. Opt-in doesn't mean "you can send me emails" or anything of the sort.



ZeoTiVo said:


> since the first one is used every time a DVR calls in TiVo has a wall separating it from the other one with personal identity info. Your last "simple" step of sending that email would mean a connection would have to be made between the two sets of info and that is not something TiVo does lightly as they want to work the data as anonymous, and in good security processes, that means protecting the personal ID info from internal employees that do not need to access it as well. TiVo is not facing a technical hurdle here but a security hurdle.


Fine, but they already made that connection to send me an upsell. The connection exists. The connection has existed for a long time, since you can get information sent to you via Gold Star advertisements. They already have a way of connecting the two.

And go back to my first post on the subject:


SoBayJake said:


> I am NOT saying they should notifiy a user a box hasn't connected to the mothership.... That being said, I'd have been sure to question the charges after ONE month, let alone years!


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> That was the point... how the heck did you guys not get it? They might be able to do it but under what circumstances? And how often would you receive said email??? Every day?? Every 2 hours??? Every 5 minutes??
> 
> How many days would have to pass (where your Tivo did not connect) before you would get this message? 30 days? 5 days? 1 day??
> ...
> I'm very surprised that you guys are not seeing the logic of this.


Yes, let's have TiVo send us an email every 5 minutes for a device that connects about once a day. Everything under that umbrella is covered by a database parameters.

Actually, I haven't seen any logic yet. I have researched the tivo site for opt-in settings, and still has nothing to do with email communication. There is a line about "provided, however, that we will still send you communications TiVo deems important regarding your TiVo Service. " I'd say this fall under that category.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and this goes the other way in those 2 sets of info  The CSR can get into the personal ID info as that is their job to do so and they should be able to tell you what is being billed or not. *BUT, they can likely not say when the last time a particular TSN called in* unless it has been deactivated by some other process and thus not allowed to call in.


bolded the part in my post you should have read 


SoBayJake said:


> Did you even read anything at the link I posted?
> ...
> 
> Fine, but they already made that connection to send me an upsell. The connection exists. The connection has existed for a long time, since you can get information sent to you via Gold Star advertisements. They already have a way of connecting the two.


this does not show any connection on when the DVR called in exists between the two sets of data. You have an S2 on your account and they send an upsell to S3 - there is no need to know if the DVR called in or not - just that it has a paid up to date subscription.

Gold stars are you the user asking for specific info and they warn that 3rd parties may know your info as a result. Simple fact is some people do not opt in and do not want their personal info known save to complete the specific transaction. TiVo like any company interested in looking good on the personal info front does not make a connection between the two without specific consent provided.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> bolded the part in my post you should have read
> 
> this does not show any connection on when the DVR called in exists between the two sets of data. You have an S2 on your account and they send an upsell to S3 - there is no need to know if the DVR called in or not - just that it has a paid up to date subscription.
> 
> Gold stars are you the user asking for specific info and they warn that 3rd parties may know your info as a result. Simple fact is some people do not opt in and do not want their personal info known save to complete the specific transaction. TiVo like any company interested in looking good on the personal info front does not make a connection between the two without specific consent provided.


The upsell was SPECIFICALLY because my S3 hadn't called in recently. The email said "We've noticed your TiVo DVR hasn't connected to the TiVo service in several months. Are you ready for the TiVo Premiere box?"

TiVo most certainly knows when a box last called in. The email they sent proves that.

Going back and look at the privacy policy, Opt-in or out does NOT, NOT, NOT, cover something like that, that I have found. If that is incorrect, please show me where. TiVo will still send you info it deems necessary/prudent.

AGAIN...I NEVER EVER said TiVo should do this. EVER. I disputed how difficult it would be.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

The difficulty would be in getting your customers to agree what is not obtrusive to them. I'm still not sure how often you think an email like this should automatically be generated and if Tivo should mark each time that it would be sent.... not to mention... if they should be liable if the email gets to the intended recipient. There are just too many factors involved for it to be "easy".

Yes, you did opt-in by providing your email for them to send promotional information. You in essence asked for the email about the promotions. And as stated before... this is likely a manual process to do for the salesman.

Reference http://www.tivo.com/ bottom left of page... Get TiVo emails. That is where YOU specifically would have opted-in for emails like this.



SoBayJake said:


> AGAIN...I NEVER EVER said TiVo should do this. EVER. I disputed how difficult it would be.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

magnus said:


> The difficulty would be in getting your customers to agree what is not obtrusive to them. I'm still not sure how often you think an email like this should automatically be generated and if Tivo should mark each time that it would be sent.... not to mention... if they should be liable if the email gets to the intended recipient. There are just too many factors involved for it to be "easy".
> 
> Yes, you did opt-in by providing your email for them to send promotional information. You in essence asked for the email about the promotions. And as stated before... this is likely a manual process to do for the salesman.
> 
> Reference http://www.tivo.com/ bottom left of page... Get TiVo emails. That is where YOU specifically would have opted-in for emails like this.


No, I did not. They emailed me because I have an account with service. Not because I signed up for promotions (which anyone can do). Your attempt at facts is still wrong.

AGAIN..TiVo reserves the right to email you about service issues. I think "you realize you are paying for a box that isn't working" falls under that.

You are STILL claiming your "opt-out" choise prevents something that DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. So guess what? You won't get emails like that! Yes, the email I got was marketing, so you won't get that. Most likely, YOU would STILL get an email that your box hasn't connected IF SUCH A SYSTEM EXISTED. Anyone that gets mad about AN email from a company that says "you are paying for something you don't use...is this correct?" needs to reevaluate his look on the world.

It's not even worth my time rebutting the opt-in/opt-out arguments, since I'm using the TiVo website for facts, and that's obviously not stacking up against made-up arguments. So I give up.


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## T1V0 (Jun 14, 2006)

nothing else going on in the world?


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

WTF do you think I am making up???? They have an opt-in for this type of email and you did opt-in for it (you must have forgot that you did).

I'm not sure where you have "FACTS" in your argument either. You're saying that because they collect anonymous data that they are somehow supposed to be able to send you a message like this??? IS that what you are trying to argue?

How exactly do you think they are going to send out a message like this???? I've asked several times and you don't seem to be addressing that. How many times a day??? How often??? Can a person opt-out of this email because they are on vacation??? Is this going to be configurable for each user? So, that I can tell Tivo to remind me every X days? Will Tivo be liable for my not getting an email because their system missed me for some reason or because the email provider was down?

Don't you really think that Tivo has better things to do than babysit the stupid???

Edit: I think you are making this email up anyway because I have a box that has not connected for 2 months and Tivo has not sent me anything about my box not connecting. I know that I have opted-in for everything. So, really not sure why this would be unless this is a manual process and they have not got to my name yet.



SoBayJake said:


> No, I did not. They emailed me because I have an account with service. Not because I signed up for promotions (which anyone can do). Your attempt at facts is still wrong.
> 
> AGAIN..TiVo reserves the right to email you about service issues. I think "you realize you are paying for a box that isn't working" falls under that.
> 
> ...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

magnus said:


> How exactly do you think they are going to send out a message like this???? I've asked several times and you don't seem to be addressing that. How many times a day??? How often??? Can a person opt-out of this email because they are on vacation??? Is this going to be configurable for each user? So, that I can tell Tivo to remind me every X days? Will Tivo be liable for my not getting an email because their system missed me for some reason or because the email provider was down?


It helps if you actually read the messages before you start replying.



SoBayJake said:


> *I am NOT saying they should notifiy a user a box hasn't connected to the mothership*, but I am disputing the comment "For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work." If they can notify me that mybox hasn't connected for an upsell, the system is already in place to notify users a given box hasn't connected.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

I had an entire post written, but decided when things devolve into name calling and cursing, best to just ignore it. The story has changed, the thread went off topic, and I've been called a liar. Bravo!


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

ok, story changed? where? called you a name? where?

And I suppose that you are saying that it is okay to say that TiVoStephen is a liar!?! Bravo to you too.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Then what was the point? They still don't have an automated system that does this.



Adam1115 said:


> It helps if you actually read the messages before you start replying.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Let's try to get back on topic. We all know that TiVo can do no wrong, but we also know that TiVo disables lifetime unit if it doesn't call the mothership in 6 months. I have no idea how they do it, but why couldn't they use the same method to disable monthly unit after 6 months and stop billing the customer for the unit that doesn't call for the guide data?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

samo said:


> We all know that TiVo can do no wrong


Yes, we all know that you believe that. Yeah; sure you do.

Your posts are interpreted in the appropriate context.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

samo said:


> ...we also know that TiVo disables lifetime unit *MSD* if it *the qualifying unit* doesn't call the mothership in 6 months...


There. I fixed your post.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

magnus said:


> The difficulty would be in getting your customers to agree what is not obtrusive to them.


the people that opted in have their personal info connected to TSN activity, those that have not opted in - do not.
That simple statement means that TiVo can not provide the heads up to all folks equally and to make a system that would be able to notify all users equally is what would take the work described prior. For someone who has not opted in then the email notices would likely be seen as obtrusive.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> Let's try to get back on topic. We all know that TiVo can do no wrong, but we also know that TiVo disables lifetime unit if it doesn't call the mothership in 6 months. I have no idea how they do it, but why couldn't they use the same method to disable monthly unit after 6 months and stop billing the customer for the unit that doesn't call for the guide data?


I have units grandfathered for 6.95 on month to month. It would be in TiVo Inc.'s interest to cancel those if a unit did not call in but I would be rather upset.

Also what if the scenario is a person with the disposable income and a summer house - they might have the unit off for 8 months out of the year and only use it for 4 months. Sending an email is one thing, canceling units without authorization is quite another.

again in all of this - this is not a zero sum thing for TiVo. There is the expense AND opportunity cost of what else the person could be doing that adds to the bottom line. THe guy knew about the bill, could have taken 5 minutes online to see what the charge is for and called TiVo to get the service stopped and likely a credit for the couple months if he had acted when he saw the charge.

Instead we have seem to have decided that TiVo somehow has to be the one accountable for figuring out which TiVo DVRs people do want service and thus be charged on. I for one do not think TiVo needs to try and figure that out for folks but instead do what they can to help out folks who take personal accountability and call in. They gave the guy 6 months credit.

bottom line if the guy had called in within the first 6 months of seeing the charge this would be a non-issue and thus this is simply and solely an issue of some guy who did not take personal responsibility for his accounts and then wants to cry foul cause the big mean company did not hold his hand in the first place.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

SoBayJake said:


> Ok, as for TiVoStephen's reply, I mostly agree. However, on June 5th, I got the following email from TiVo:
> 
> "We've noticed your TiVo DVR hasn't connected to the TiVo service in several months. Are you ready for the TiVo Premiere box?"
> 
> ...


Pulling and verifying the e-mail addresses for that e-mail was a manual and time-intensive one-time process. It was certainly not automated.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

SoBayJake said:


> I am not disputing the fact that TiVo doesn't have the automated system. I am disputing the complexity of developing such a system.
> 
> No way that's a manual process. The query would be something as easy as "if lastConnect < (someDate) do X"
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you don't believe me but you're talking without knowledge of how our systems work. The first hole in your theory is that you're assuming the information is all in the same database. It's not.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TiVoStephen said:


> I'm sorry you don't believe me but you're talking without knowledge of how our systems work. The first hole in your theory is that you're assuming the information is all in the same database. It's not.


You're kind of digging a hole with that statement. If TiVo has an older and inefficient system in which all subscribers have not been put into the same database (or for which there are filters and connectors between DBs) then it is surely costing them money to maintain disparate systems and making maintenance and marketing to those users very pricey.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

SoBayJake said:


> ...I don't even know databases that well, ...


You should have stopped right there, because all you can do is make assumptions.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> You're kind of digging a hole with that statement. If TiVo has an older and inefficient system in which all subscribers have not been put into the same database (or for which there are filters and connectors between DBs) then it is surely costing them money to maintain disparate systems and making maintenance and marketing to those users very pricey.


actually you are digging the hole on not having read through this thread.

the information on specific DVR activity is 
separated 
from the data on specific people and their account info (email, credit card, which TSN *numbers* are in their account

it has nothing to do with old systems and everything to do with protecting the identity and viewing habits of individual account holders. See some of my previous posts in this thread on the subject


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

TiVoStephen said:


> .........For the record, we have no automated system that notifies us which units are not making connections to the service, and developing an accurate, non-intrusive notification system would be a significant amount of work.





dlfl said:


> How easily (can they verify etc.)? Do you know the details of what they would have to do to verify that? If their systems support a CSR pulling that info up on their screen in 30 secs or less, then I would agree with you.......





Adam1115 said:


> Yes, their tech support can tell the last time the tivo called in...


So (TiVoStephen) can you verify that TiVo tech support can pull up the info about the last time a box connected, easily and quickly?

If so, wouldn't it have been reasonable to grant a refund based on the unused service time? Not saying legally required, or even ethically required, just a reasonable and fair thing to do? Good will for TiVo. And I still say the customer had the primary responsibility to protect his own interests.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> actually you are digging the hole on not having read through this thread.
> 
> the information on specific DVR activity is
> separated
> ...


You are correct, I have not reviewed the entire thread. However, the statement that pulling account data as described was a time consuming 'special' task speaks volumes... regardless of how many systems they have this should not be a difficult task.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

dlfl said:


> So (TiVoStephen) can you verify that TiVo tech support can pull up the info about the last time a box connected, easily and quickly


Yes, our support personnel can access information about an individual unit for troubleshooting purposes.

I'm not familiar with the facts of this individual case. I am trying to defend our general policy about having a limitation for the number of months of service that can be refunded, as happened in this case.

I think most people in the thread agree with that general principal, actually. I can't talk about the facts of individual cases, but we do make exceptions in the name of good will.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Agreed, and that's exactly my point. Even though I have opted-in... I am not sure that I would want this email or want Tivo to spend the time necessary to implement it.



ZeoTiVo said:


> the people that opted in have their personal info connected to TSN activity, those that have not opted in - do not.
> That simple statement means that TiVo can not provide the heads up to all folks equally and to make a system that would be able to notify all users equally is what would take the work described prior. For someone who has not opted in then the email notices would likely be seen as obtrusive.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> You are correct, I have not reviewed the entire thread. However, the statement that pulling account data as described was a time consuming 'special' task speaks volumes... regardless of how many systems they have this should not be a difficult task.


it would technically not be hard - the hard part is the security needed when connecting the two sets of info that exist separately to ensure that viewing habits of some specific account owner can not be easily determined.

However we have another thread on someone saying TiVo called them just a month after their older TiVo was unplugged to see if they wanted to upgrade. TiVoStephen can you respond to this? Does such a program exist and will it be ongoing?


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

One-time program.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoStephen said:


> One-time program.


thanks for the info.
I infer from this that it is the same manual process of getting some data on dial ins and then a human being looking up the account/contact info and making the connection to the customer.

I am still in the camp that to have that expense for simple billing purposes is not needed since the person can find all billing info on line in 5 minutes and should have personal responsibility to not get charged for what they do not want/use. Of course the marketing program could also let people know they are getting billed as a plus.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

In short, this would be an exercise to spend money to make less money, a no go for having a positive IRR to Ok a project.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

In this case the person claims they were told by tivo that they could not transfer lifetime service to the new tivo because the old tivo was broken. So their expectation should have been to have this monthly charge all along. Tivo transferred the lifetime service anyway and probably billed $199. 

If Tivo was informed that the old unit was broken, then this person should get a full refund of the monthly charges. It's not reasonable to expect a customer to check for charges to a unit that was reported broken to tivo in the first place.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> In this case the person claims they were told by tivo that they could not transfer lifetime service to the new tivo because the old tivo was broken. So their expectation should have been to have this monthly charge all along. Tivo transferred the lifetime service anyway and probably billed $199.


the charge did not start for a year after they did the lifetime transfer thing. The 199$ was charged to the same account. So either the person thought they were getting a free year of service or just blew off verifying what the 12.95 was about.

again a 5 minute look at their account on TiVo.com would have told them the whole story. This is still about being personally accountable for what people are billing you for.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the charge did not start for a year after they did the lifetime transfer thing. The 199$ was charged to the same account. So either the person thought they were getting a free year of service or just blew off verifying what the 12.95 was about.
> 
> again a 5 minute look at their account on TiVo.com would have told them the whole story. This is still about being personally accountable for what people are billing you for.


This. Come on, a $12.95 charge for a couple years on your credit card bill and you never bother to dispute it or apparently even question it.

You know, when I got my first TiVo a year and a half ago (refurbished original S3) it was dead out of the box. I sent it back and waited to get another one and paid for service for a couple of weeks when I did not have a functioning TiVo in my house. Maybe I should demand credit from Tivo 1.5 years later. They should have known I did not have a functioning box in the house and they continued to charge me and I was not smart enough to figure it out on my own.  I never even worried about it.

Certainly if I had a non-functioning box for a few years I would have called them at some point , but I never would have expected them to reimburse me for the time I just let it go. I would think their only obligation would be to cancel service when the customer asks for it to be canceled. I do understand the argument of an auto-cancel or something happening after six months of a unit not calling in (doesn't that do something to your lifetime?), but if no policy is in place in the service agreement.....

Kind of like the gym membership example. I paid once at a gym for a while without going (like 6-7 months) and then called and canceled membership there. I did not ask or expect a refund for the paid months I did not use. Same thing with service agreements at the corporate level I have administered over the years - no refunds or credit for unused services.


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