# Documenting my Bolt Experiences...



## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*02/12/2018* - Original Post edited for semi-brevity and reorganization._ (Click on any image to open high resolution version in a new tab/window.)_
********************
This thread documents the modifications and upgrades I have made/will make to improve overall performance/capability and maximize the functional lifetime of my TiVO Bolt 500GB.

Thanks to _ALL_ who came before and upon whose shoulders I am standing. 

*BoltPrime**:*
*Tivo Bolt 500GB (white)
Date of Manufacture: 11 September 2017
Current Software: 21.7.2.RC12 (-USC-11-849)*​
*THERMAL CONCERNS:* In my opinion, the stock machine has serious thermal management issues.

*ODT (as delivered):* 73° C

This temperature reading shocked me. Isolating BoltPrime completely from external heat sources reduced the temp perhaps by a degree. Initially, I was not controlling for tuners in use, recording, transfers, et al.

Disassembled the unit to take some measurements and begin analysis of the thermal design. Left top covers off as a temporary measure to keep temps down. Here are initial cover-off temps:

*Stable 1 Tuner in use Temp: *54° C
*Stable 4 Tuner in use Temp: *55° C
*Stable 4 Tuner in use and streaming NETFLIX: *55° C

Ordered some materials to improve stock chassis thermal performance:

Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, 50mm x 50mm x 10mm fan
4-pin MOLEX TX4 Extension Cables, 5 each

It appears the stock 15mm fan's headroom is so restrictive that it seriously hampers the already quite limited airflow rate. BoltPrime's 2-pin power supply circuit appears to be acoustically "quiet", but I am still going power the fan from the 4-pin HDD header 12 vdc rail to maximize fan speed/flow. I considered hunting up higher flow fans, but have reconsidered for now.

The prime heat generators in the device are the processor and cable card, but the shielded devices (tuner, et al) near the coax jack generate some heat as well and/or conduct heat from the inadequately cooled CableCard. The chassis engineers' thermal design intent is clear; it was simply, I suspect, compromised by higher priorities (production cost, size, et al). Ultimately, I do not think that I can adequately address the thermal management shortcomings without adding additional airflow. Such is not happening without additional ventilation and/or fan(s).

Consequently, I have purchased 2 additional "dead" Bolts to use for backup (BoltBack) and spare parts (BoltDonor). I can/will hack on the additional cases, keeping the original chassis unmodified.

====================

*02/04/2017 - Thermal Management Update:
*
On a lark, I moved the fan from its place and simply set it on top of the heatsink, blowing down. Here are the results:

*1 Tuner:* 40° C
*4 Tuners + Netflix:* 41° C

An additional 14° C reduction vs. case removed, w/ no forced air.
A full 32° C (44%+) reduction over the "as delivered" configuration by a) blowing a little air over heatsink, and b) providing a larger delta temp between heatsink and surrounding air.



*02/12/2018* - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:

At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 54° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 67° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 62° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 60° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 56° C

TODO: control for CableCard cover removed vs installed.

CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.
LSFI = LS as above with addition of fan exhaust isolator. (aka: . See images/dimensions.
"Sustained transfer" = Recordings being written TO the device under test (DUT) from another device.
_Note: All temperatures after "At Idle, OE Fan" are with 3TB Toshiba drive w/possible additional heat._

The following images illustrate "Left Side elevated" (LS), fan isolator prototype, and "Left Side elevated with Fan Isolator (LSFI), and Vertical.




====================

*Voltage Probing:* Here are the voltage readings from selected locations. The red numbers in the following image correlate with the measurements below.

*Vacant 4-pin header adjacent to the SATA header:
Pin 1:* 3.55 vdc
*Pin 2:* 0.00 vdc
*Pin 3:* 4.76 vdc
*Pin 4:* 5.09 vdc
*
Fan Header:
Pin 1:* 12.21 vdc
*Pin 2:* 0.00 vdc

*HDD Power Header:
Pin 1:* 0.00 vdc
*Pin 2:* 5.10 vdc
*Pin 3:* 0.00 vdc
*Pin 4:* 12.21 vdc

All voltages appeared rock steady on the VOM. I do not have a frequency counter or scope capable to look for switching activity on the 2-pin header power supply circuit.



====================

*Wireless Network Adapter/Antennas:* BoltPrime is physically connected to the network with wired Ethernet, so I decided to function test the system without the WiFi adapter installed.

*02/04/2018* - Removed the Wireless Network Adapter and set it on top of the HDD to test. Rebooted the Bolt and cannot find any indication that it knows the adapter is missing. The card, antennas, and routing clips could be removed form the chassis. Set a static IP address.

*02/06/2018* - Unintended consequences... Bluetooth functions are integrated on the WiFi adapter. Remove it and you lose RF remote capabilities to include VOX. Ultimately, I plan to put BoltPrime in a closet, thus I need to maintain the RF functions.

*02/10/2018* - Considering purchasing a Roamio VOX remote with Bluetooth dongle. Should work, and if it does, I can remove the WiFi adapter. I've become concerned that the BoltPrime's WiFi adapter, even not being used, is interfering with my router's WiFi some 12 inches away and may be vulnerable to attack since I have no way to monitor or control it.

====================

I will continue to post back to this thread with updates as I proceed.

Love this stuff...


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*BoltBack Related Work:*

*Installation of Internal 4TB Seagate Drive:*

*02/10/2018* - OK, with the backup Bolt (BoltBack) up and running, I moved on to replacing the disk drive to increase the storage capacity and frankly just for the practice using the tools and procedures.

Pretty uneventful really...

1) Removed 500GB drive with antenna wire clips left in place.
2) Removed SATA/PWR connector from OE drive and put it in place on the Seagate 4TB drive. (no mount bracket yet)
3) Plugged HDD pwr and data cables in and set disk drive in place next to motherboard.
4) Booted BoltBack up to "Country Screen".
5) Pulled power plug from back of unit.
6) Attached 4TB drive to laptop using USB connector and wire mentioned in Post #75 above.
7) Ran mfsr.exe with right-click, "Run as Administrator", and reformatted the drive.
8) USB ejected and disconnected drive when it was finished.
9) Installed Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 in place of OEM fan, connected temporarily to OEM 2-pin header.
10) Mounted drive in bracket, put SATA interface back on it, installed and re-assembled BolBack fully, sans screws. (Left those out to aid disassembly later until all finished).

Booted machine up, completed Guided Setup, and machine is working perfectly with 640 HD hour capacity advertised.

*NOTE:* I "prepared" the drive using the "B" option of the DISKPART procedure in Post #75 above prior to first installation. Not required, but I've decided this will be part of my standard procedure prior to placing ANY drive into TiVo service to remove drive condition from troubleshooting consideration if a problem arises. Alternatively, I may begin using WD's DLD if it works successfully in my testing.

====================

*Thermal Management:*

*02/10/2018* - Fan on OE 2-pin power header has dropped idle temperature of the box from 54° C to 49° C fully assembled. Will post back once the materials arrive to build the inline tap for the 4-pin, HDD power header.

*02/11/2018* - This will be updated in a piecemeal fashion as I accomplish other tasks.

At Idle, OE Fan (NCC): 54° C
At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 60° C
At Idle, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 49° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 56° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (NCC): 58° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 59° C

* CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
* LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Reserved for future use #2


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Reserved for future use #3


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

Just checked my Bolt +, ODT is 72.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

UCLABB said:


> Just checked my Bolt +, ODT is 72.


Yep... that just seems way too high to maintain a healthy machine in the long term.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the max temp for the processor is much past 80° C.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

UCLABB said:


> Just checked my Bolt +, ODT is 72.


Wow! Is there a blanket on top? 

Some things come to mind. Is the sensor poorly located? Is the software that read the sensor buggy? Is the software that displays the temperature buggy? And so on.

Even a Mini without a fan never gets above 55C. That's consistent on a V1, V2 and V3.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Did you search this? My recollection is the temperature sensor on a bolt in in a different location than older units, thus the differentiation.

Your opinion on temperatures does not mean it is out of design temps.

High Temperature on Bolt+


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow! 70* is awesome...if it was Fahrenheit!

-KP


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Wow! Is there a blanket on top?
> 
> Some things come to mind. Is the sensor poorly located? Is the software that read the sensor buggy? Is the software that displays the temperature buggy? And so on.
> 
> Even a Mini without a fan never gets above 55C. That's consistent on a V1, V2 and V3.


Joe...

It is my unferstanding that the newer Bolt has an "on die" temp sensor, meaning INSIDE the processor case. This is similar to most computer processors made in the last 15-20 years.

The ODT that I am quoting is from the TiVo software on the Bolt from the third screen of Menu--> Help--> Account & System Info--> System Information

Alternatively the New TiVo Mini I just got terms the temp, "MBT" which typically means "motherboard temperature".

Mine is 68° C right now streaming Amazon.... resting is in the high 50s. No telling for sure where the sensor is in the mini, since it is a fanless design with little interior flow.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

jrtroo said:


> Did you search this? My recollection is the temperature sensor on a bolt in in a different location than older units, thus the differentiation.
> 
> Your opinion on temperatures does not mean it is out of design temps.
> 
> High Temperature on Bolt+


Hi! 

I'm not making comparisons. I'm simply reacting to:

1) The seemingly excessive on die temperature.

2) The 18° C delta in on die temperature between a stock boxed BOLT and with the case stripped off.

High ODT can reduce service life of the processor, and the higher resulting interior temps can negatively affect performance and service life of other components.

The high temp delta points to serious thermal design compromises in the design.... which frankly are evident from a cursory inspection.

It is clear that they did the best they could within the constraints placed upon them.... engineering is a war of compromises.

But thermal management got the short end of the stick this time.

You can bend the laws of physics, but you cannot break them. 

My list of engineering concerns does not prioritize looks.... My #1 priority behind performance is longevity. One of the best ways to increase longevity is to keep temperatures as low as possible within the limits of other constraints.... chiefly money.

Enjoy your Sunday! 
-Clay

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Joe...
> It is my unferstanding that the newer Bolt has an "on die" temp sensor, meaning INSIDE the processor case. This is similar to most computer processors made in the last 15-20 years.
> The ODT that I am quoting is from the TiVo software on the Bolt from the third screen of Menu--> Help--> System&Information
> Alternatively the New TiVo Mini I just got terms the temp, "MBT" which typically means "motherboard temperature".
> ...


With 20.7.4.RC18, the System Information item has changed to "MBT: Internal Temperature:" (same with Hydra) which is still vague. True, things are different on a Bolt. I'd like to add one other item to longevity: reduce temperature changes. I'd be happy with any temperature if it is stable. I get a 4C swing daily since the room temperature can vary from 68F to 74F on any day. Standby has a minimal effect.

One other observation. While watching live TV or a recording a program or two I can't see an internal temperature change. But file transfers do seem to cause a slight warm up.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

JoeKustra said:


> With 20.7.4.RC18, the System Information item has changed to "MBT: Internal Temperature:" (same with Hydra) which is still vague.


I'm not seeing that (21.7.2.RC12).
I see ODT (and I'm at 58 to 60 whenever I check)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Tony_T said:


> I'm not seeing that (21.7.2.RC12).
> I see ODT (and I'm at 58 to 60 whenever I check)


I guess Bolts are... different. 

It is kind of weird that the same software version looks different on different hardware platforms.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> With 20.7.4.RC18, the System Information item has changed to "MBT: Internal Temperature:" (same with Hydra) which is still vague. True, things are different on a Bolt. I'd like to add one other item to longevity: reduce temperature changes. I'd be happy with any temperature if it is stable. I get a 4C swing daily since the room temperature can vary from 68F to 74F on any day. Standby has a minimal effect.
> 
> One other observation. While watching live TV or a recording a program or two I can't see an internal temperature change. But file transfers do seem to cause a slight warm up.


Interesting.... When did you get that version? Both my Bolt and mini are on 21.7.2.RC12 (different extensions). Bolt has ODT and mini has MBT.

MBT does cast some murkiness about where the temp sensor is located, but on the Bolt at least, I will proceed with the idea that it is on the BCM7449S die versus a themistor chip on the motherboard until I get concrete proof to the contrary.

Yes, reducing thermal swings is a close cousin to keeping temps low. Thermal cycling CAN shorten lifespans, but I don't think you have anything to worry about with a 4° C swing. In my experience, it requires a much larger swing and/or a higher frequency of cycling to appreciably shorten lifespan, all other things being equal. But added to excessively high component temps, it just adds insult to injury.

Yes, # of tuners and streaming made little difference in my measurements either.... the spread I observed could have largely been due to the HVAC in the house being on or off, or other factors, or a combination of factors.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Tony_T said:


> I'm not seeing that (21.7.2.RC12).
> I see ODT (and I'm at 58 to 60 whenever I check)


Is that box stock? Do you know the ambient temp around the device? Is it in the path of your HVAC vent or other airflow? What is the build date for your machine? DO you have a pin heatsink or a finned heatsink on your main processor? I'm trying to pin down the wide variances in temp from machine to machine.



JoeKustra said:


> I guess Bolts are... different.
> 
> It is kind of weird that the same software version looks different on different hardware platforms.


It is weird isn't it. My Bolt and Mini are on the same software base, but the extensions are quite different.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> It is weird isn't it. My Bolt and Mini are on the same software base, but the extensions are quite different.


As for software versions, everything after the RC number is hardware (TSN) specific. The last three digits are always your first three digits of your TSN, but the other digits can vary. I've seen "USA", "USC" and the TSN.

BTW, that 20.7.4.RC18 is the classic UI. It's the same for a Mini (all versions), on a Roamio, Bolt and a Premiere. It does look different on all three platforms. Also, to see all software versions for classic UI see -> https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information just scroll down.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> As for software versions, everything after the RC number is hardware (TSN) specific. The last three digits are always your first three digits of your TSN, but the other digits can vary. I've seen "USA", "USC" and the TSN.
> 
> BTW, that 20.7.4.RC18 is the classic UI. It's the same for a Mini (all versions), on a Roamio, Bolt and a Premiere. It does look different on all three platforms. Also, to see all software versions for classic UI see -> https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Software-Version-Information just scroll down.


Extensions: That's what I figured. Thanks for the confirmation and additional specifics.

Ohhhhh.... I just noticed the major revision on the version number you posted. Doh!
Thanks for the link!


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

My On Die Temperature is 60 C. My Bolt is out in the open and isn't over or under anything. It seems a little low to me.

First, the ODT is only accurate to within +/- 5 C.

Second, normally the on die temperature runs very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very hot. Did I mention how hot it is? It's really f***ing hot. Really hot. Really, really hot. You will not believe how hot it is. Even now, as I say this, you're thinking, "but it shouldn't be THAT hot." So once again I will say it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very hot.

How hot? Anything under 100 C is definitely fine, most modern CPUs and FPGAs (or hybrids thereof) can go up to 110-120 C and be perfectly happy. As a result, 75 C feels like winter to it. 

There are two signs that something may actually be wrong:

1. On startup, the fan runs at maximum speed. After it is finished booting, it should slow down. If it continues to run at max. speed the entire time, there is a problem.

2. The hard drive temp. should not go above 55 C. It is the only reason the Bolt has a fan at all. The only real way to measure that is to use a thermocouple attached to the hard drive case. The unofficial way to measure it is to touch it for 5.0 seconds. Did you get a first degree burn or worse that required medical treatment? If not, it's cool enough.

And last, it is physically impossible for a 2-pin fan header to implement PWM. It is linear voltage regulation, done poorly so that the Bolt is a lot noisier than it should be.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Just finished testing the removal of the Wireless Adapter Card and posted the edit to Post #1.

Success! The Bolt exhibits no error or indication that the card is removed, though the machine remained connected to the wired network. Will remove the components and store them with the original case when I do the fan replacement and case bottom replacement.

I'm also shopping for the neoprene rubber with PSA both sides (in various thicknesses) that TiVo uses to attach the antenna to the fan and prop up the end of the heatsink, and attackes the other two antenna mounts to the case bottom. Already have the double-sided tape used to attach the 2 antennas to their mounting brackets.

NOTE: Of course, you also lose the RF Remote and have IR Remote only.

Click on the image for a full resolution version in a new window.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Just finished testing the removal of the Wireless Adapter Card and posted the edit to Post #1.
> Success! The Bolt exhibits no error or indication that the card is removed, though the machine remained connected to the wired network. Will remove the components and store them with the original case when I do the fan replacement and case bottom replacement.


I'm curious. What error do you receive when you disconnect the Ethernet cable? On my TiVo it switches to WiFi. When I plug it back in, it switches back.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Is that box stock? Do you know the ambient temp around the device? Is it in the path of your HVAC vent or other airflow? What is the build date for your machine? DO you have a pin heatsink or a finned heatsink on your main processor? I'm trying to pin down the wide variances in temp from machine to machine.
> 
> It is weird isn't it. My Bolt and Mini are on the same software base, but the extensions are quite different.


White Bolt I got in Nov.
I installed a larger HD.
Bolt in in a cabinet that is ventilated with a fan.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

BobCamp1 said:


> My On Die Temperature is 60 C. My Bolt is out in the open and isn't over or under anything. It seems a little low to me.
> 
> First, the ODT is only accurate to within +/- 5 C.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Bob! I really appreciate the additional information. I'm going to reply down here rather than inline as it tends to get messy. 

60° C is a lot lower than mine for sure. Assuming your +/-5° C tolerance was maxed out on both ends.... You -5° C and me +5° C = 65° C --> 68° C. Still a 3° C difference.
What is your date of manufacture on your box? Does it have a finned heat-sink or a cross-cut finned heat-sink (pins)?

Do you have a reference for the +/-5° C tolerance you quoted? Not doubting, but I'd like to read the source as I can't seem to find the datasheet for the BCM7449S.

I know some processor cores can run core temps to and north of 100° C. That doesn't really make much difference to me. 75° C isn't "winter", simply more tolerable. Less hot is virtually always better for performance and longevity in the world of processors. Additionally, all that retained heat has to go somewhere, so it raises the temp of other components, traces, et al. Most non-military components have a max temp of around 85° C. "Milspec" often runs 125° C.

Fan Speed: I've not noticed much speed change in my fan between boot-up and stable operation. For there to be a speed change on a fan, typically some controller must change it, typically either by varying the voltage below (in this case) 12 vdc and above the turn-off voltage, OR via some sort of PWM routine. So you are saying it is being done by voltage variation and not PWM? That the noise folks are hearing from the fan circuit is a noisy regulator? Could be... I don't know.... yet.

Hard Disk Dirve: Yes, the hard disk drive has to be kept within a certain temp range too, and for sure below a certain rated temp. The hotter a drive gets, the shorter its life will be all other things being equal. Please cite your source for the 55° C temp spec you quote. Is that for the TiVo chosen OEM drives? Because not all drives have the same environmental restrictions. I may well unpack all my old temp testing equipment and grab some temps from the hard drive case top, circuit board, and motor hub. Probably not, since I will ultimately probably wind up putting a large enterprise level 3.5" in and external enclosure with good cooling and a proper power supply with at least 50% headroom.

PWM: No way to do PWM on a 2 pin fan? Hmmmm.... True, there is no dedicated tach signal from the fan on a 2-pin fan, but you CAN ABSOLUTELY control a 2-pin fan speed using PWM. You simply don't use the fan speed as your feedback loop data provider.

Method 1: Use standard PWM/switching to controll the on/off duty cycle of the fan power supply. Use the ODT or other temperature as the monitored value in the control loop for the power supply. Lots of ways to build the loop and set the speed curve, but essentially as the ODT increases, the fan speed increases up to the point where duty cycle reaches 100% (no switching).

Method 2: (Much less likely) Circuitry in the fan creates a square wave AC signal that is injected onto one of the power leads. The signal is picked up at the header and fed to the control loop of the PWM switching supply. The AC signal rides the same conductor as the DC signal.... same way DC is injected onto an antenna feed-line to power a device at/near the antenna feed-point.

Either way, it is most probable that the fan speed is being controlled by varying the duty cycle of the 12 vdc supply rather than varying the voltage amplitude. I will try to verify this for sure the next time I have the device on the bench.

Have a great Super Bowl Sunday, if football is your thing! 

*______________
Clay Autery
More, Better, Faster...*


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm curious. What error do you receive when you disconnect the Ethernet cable? On my TiVo it switches to WiFi. When I plug it back in, it switches back.


Good question.... When I went to confirm where you turned off Wirless in the software, I found nothing, but remembered where I had definitely seen references to "Wireless" in the Settings sub-menus. With the card out, there is no mention of wireless ANYWHERE that I can find in the settings.

So.... when "She who must be obeyed" is not watching next time, I'll shut her down and put the card back in to see how it behaves with removal and insertion of the Ethernet cable.

I just removed the Ethernet cable while in operation and there are no pop up errors. In the Network Status Screen it had not updated to not connected; still showed the last good information. Running the diag tests of course failed.



Tony_T said:


> White Bolt I got in Nov.
> I installed a larger HD.
> Bolt in in a cabinet that is ventilated with a fan.


Remember what the heat-sink looked like? Like mine in the picture above, or with continuous fins.
Could you look on the bottom label and report back the Manufacture Date? Thanks!


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Good question.... When I went to confirm where you turned off Wirless in the software, I found nothing, but remembered where I had definitely seen references to "Wireless" in the Settings sub-menus. With the card out, there is no mention of wireless ANYWHERE that I can find in the settings.
> So.... when "She who must be obeyed" is not watching next time, I'll shut her down and put the card back in to see how it behaves with removal and insertion of the Ethernet cable.
> I just removed the Ethernet cable while in operation and there are no pop up errors. In the Network Status Screen it had not updated to not connected; still showed the last good information. Running the diag tests of course failed


Thanks for checking. It's normal for nothing to happen when the network fails. That is until it's needed. Then things cascade with usually a Cxxx error, loss of Search and WTWN becoming grayed out and those thumbnails of programs changing to generic blocks of color. If you are watching the Network Settings screen, you can watch it switch between Ethernet and wireless. If I unplug my Ethernet cable it take a few seconds to switch to wireless, probably since it's already configured. You can't configure a wireless connection while Ethernet is connected. In a sense, you can't really choose from a menu.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*Thermal Management Update:
*
Just for grins, I unsecured the fan from its place and simply set it on top of the heatsink, blowing down. here are the results:

1 Tuner: 40° C
4 Tuners and Streaming Netflix: 41° C

Another reduction of 14° C vs. case removed, no forced air.
A full 32° C (44%+) reduction over the "as delivered" configuration by simply allowing a cheap little 50x15mm fan to blow a little air over the heat-sink!

(Click on image for full resolution version in a new window/tab)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> *Thermal Management Update:*
> Just for grins, I unsecured the fan from its place and simply set it on top of the heatsink, blowing down. here are the results:
> 1 Tuner: 40 C
> 4 Tuners and Streaming Netflix: 41 C
> ...


That's amazing.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> That's amazing.


Yep... It is amazing what you can do... sometimes with little to no expense. I JUST won an AS IS Bolt on eBay. Time to get serious about it. 

By the way....

*QUESTION: Has anyone taken the heat-sink off a Bolt to inspect the thermal interface material?*

Is it thermal interface tape, TSA/PSA both sides? Or a thermal interface pad? Or a paste?
Unless the thermal interface compound is already Arctic Silver, and I am sure it isn't, then I will be replacing what is there with Arctic Silver.
And I will be replacing the spring-loaded, snap-in, heatsink fasteners with a removable/repeatable solution.


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## LarryAtHome (Feb 18, 2008)

How is your cable connection. I found mine to heat up and be quite warm. I installed a fan connected to the USB connector that sits on top of the case and blows over the cable connection. Does the connector heat up just due to the amount of heat the processor gives off or is it a source of heat as well? The USB connection runs the fan at a lower voltage than it is rated for and it spins slower and quieter, but creates enough air movement to keep the connector cool.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Yep... It is amazing what you can do... sometimes with little to no expense. I JUST won an AS IS Bolt on eBay


Won? As in free? 
As is? As in broken?


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

LarryAtHome said:


> How is your cable connection. I found mine to heat up and be quite warm. I installed a fan connected to the USB connector that sits on top of the case and blows over the cable connection. Does the connector heat up just due to the amount of heat the processor gives off or is it a source of heat as well? The USB connection runs the fan at a lower voltage than it is rated for and it spins slower and quieter, but creates enough air movement to keep the connector cool.


Prior to shucking the case tops, the F-connector (Cable/OTA IN) would get REALLY hot. You COULD keep your fingers on it, but you certainly didn't WANT to do so.

Now, it's still noticeably warm, but not hot.

I do not know (yet) why it gets so hot. I suspect that something under that shield is generating some heat. I also think that the cable card and to a lesser extent the processor contribute to heating up the connector via conductive coupling, et al. The F-connector (male/jack) acts a little bit like a heatsink/heat "pipe".

You could drain some heat out of the case by fitting a heatsink onto the jack, or pressed onto the cable connector.... like a copper/aluminum spinner nut. Would act as a sink and a way to ease spinning the connector on/off.



Tony_T said:


> Won? As in free?
> As is? As in broken?


AS IS, as in "Store Return, operational status unknown, no returns. Maybe it will work, maybe not. I only bought it to cannibalize the case, so I can hack on it.  I'm hoping to find another one soon. Perhaps between the parts remaining from the two devices, I can piece together one functional machine and sell it to cover the acquisition costs (at least in part).

Not as many dead Bolts available as one might think. Someone is collecting them.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

BobCamp1 said:


> My On Die Temperature is 60 C. My Bolt is out in the open and isn't over or under anything. It seems a little low to me.
> 
> First, the ODT is only accurate to within +/- 5 C.
> 
> ...


Thanks, the OP had me a little worried. Sounds like my 72 is fine.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

UCLABB said:


> Thanks, the OP had me a little worried. Sounds like my 72 is fine.


It was not my intent to "worry" anyone.

I am simply documenting my observations, reasoning, and actions (planned and executed) as regards putting my TiVo in shape to serve my needs for the maximum amount of time possible.

I never said that 73° C was out of spec. And if you don't plan on using your Bolt for more than a couple of years, you'll likely be fine. I am looking to go 3+ years. The box will eventually be tucked away in a closet converted to equipment/wiring closet.

I don't want to have to think about it or worry that my "lifetime" service agreement will suffer an esrly termination due to heat, et al.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

UCLABB said:


> Just checked my Bolt +, ODT is 72.


My Bolts only get near that temp if I stream content to a device. Since it has to convert everything to h.264. Even with the stock fan this was the case. But with the Black silent fan my Bolts are around 57C to 59C when in use.

I've typically run my Bolts on wire shelf. Or you can raise it up a centimeter above a solid shelf. Either way the temps get lowered.

I've owned seven Bolts now and they all behaved similarly. Although there was a few degree variance between some of them


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*Mounting Foams and Fasteners:
*
Spent several hours researching and hunting for various foam densities and thicknesses with PSA applied to both sides in an attempt to find easily acquired replacements for the following:

1) Wireless antenna to case fan mount
2) 2 x Wireless antenna brackets to case
3) Heatsink leveling prop.

Had very little success, so I've decided to make what is needed from raw materials. Ordered some 1/16" samples from one company, and then some 3/16" foam and 0.003" double-sided permanent bonding tape from another.

I chose what I think is slightly under the durometer for the antenna to fan mount because I am looking to find a more compressible foam for the heatsink prop. More about that below.
Sort of like "Adjusting Fire" in artillery, I am using this purchase as a spotting round. I will order lower or higher Shore A values as needed to fit the application (stock and/or upgraded). The intent is to replicate the stock part as closely as possible for returning a modified machine to stock trim.

Additionally, I want to make a custom part for the heatsink prop. The stock part is too thin, which is causing the heatsink to tilt (run-out of 1/32" over the length of the heasink). Assuming there is a conformable thermal pad between the sink and the processor in stock trim, that "tilting" is (sort of) acceptable. But heatsinks should sit level on the devices upon which they are primarily mounted for minimum interface thickness and best thermal transfer.

So, I am not only trying to replicate the stock part for return to stock trim, I am planning a heatsink installation "kit" to retrofit my device.

Kit contents (performance):
- Heatsink shim (oversized) - To allow installation compression bringing the sink precisely flat on processor to minimize thermal interface material thickness required
- Mounting hardware - Specialized hardware allowing for repeated removal and reassembly and adjustable heatsink leveling on processor.
- Arctic Silver thermal interface compound - to replace what I assume is a thermal interface pad. I may research and find a Bergquist or other pad to replicate the stock part for returning to stock trim.

Hard drives, cables, spare Bolt, and lots of other parts are en route for other aspects of this project.

Y'all have a great day!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> *Mounting Foams and Fasteners:
> *
> Spent several hours researching and hunting for various foam densities and thicknesses with PSA applied to both sides in an attempt to find easily acquired replacements for the following:
> 
> ...


For foam mounts replacements, I usually use Command Strips


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Tony_T said:


> For foam mounts replacements, I usually use Command Strips


Yep, those things are awesome for lots of things. Especially if you aren't looking to make it look "stock".  AND, they are generally cleanly removable. But largely, I am trying to replicate the OEM parts in function/appearance. Except for the heatsink.... there, I am looking for a precision fit for performance reasons.

With regard to the little foam piece propping up the front of the heatsink, the STOCK part is not thick enough. Ideally, it needs to be slightly taller than the top of the processor with respect to the motherboard, so that when the sink is fixed to the motherboard that it compresses some under the spring tension and is closer to level. To do it this way, you have to watch the density closely so that you don't stress the motherboard, etc. For "stock" appearance, it needs to be 1/8" nominal with PSA both sides and very firm.

A better solution is to use spring-loaded, threaded fasteners at each corner of the heatsink and use a depth mic or caliper to set the heights above motherboard evenly and at the right height at the 4 corners. I would also add foam inserts around the fasteners at least on the 2 forward corners under the heatsink that require compression to prevent tilting.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*WOW!!!* Sometimes, I wonder if I'm entering some kind of early onset dementia of some sort.

I don't use the VOX functions on my Bolt much, if at all, but yesterday, I noticed that it wasn't working.... So I reset the remote and tried to re-pair it... It would not re-pair....
<much fiddling, head scratching, and an intervening sleep cycle pass>

Hmmmmm.... cannot use TiVo button + D to switch to RF mode... only works in IR mode....

*DOH!*

Wireless card is NOT just an Ethernet card.... It also contains the RF functions (BlueTooth).

Power off, reinsert card, power on.... Remote pairs first try.

Geeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz! :blush:


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Power off, reinsert card, power on.... Remote pairs first try.
> Geeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz! :blush:


Law of unintended consequences hits again.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Law of unintended consequences hits again.


Yup! LOL! Frequently....


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*Bigger Drive!!!*

References:
*Tivo Bolt with Esata cable added*
*Latest Software Update Broke my Hard eSATA Drive Hack on Bolt
*
Gotta have a bigger drive, and can't get away with repeatedly toasting the recordings and OnePass settings. So, I am gathering up the parts.

1) Have a second (and third) Bolt 500GZB on the way that I hope to be able to cobble together a second working Bolt AND swap cases with my main Bolt for case hacking purposes.

2) Have one of the TOSH 2.5" drives and the 4TB Seagate 2.5" on the way, along with external enclosure, cables, et al.

3) Will put a second Bolt on month-to-month service as a place to backup recordings (as much as possible) and OnePass settings

4) Ultimately, I anticipate ending up with the largest 3.5" (desktop/server) HDD in a properly powered/cooled external enclosure mated to the Bolt using a SATA to SATA cable.

*QUESTION: Has anyone used a WD Gold drive?* As of now, I plan to learn on the Tosh and Seagate drives, but plan to use a WD Gold in 8TB for the final external drive.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> but plan to use a WD Gold in 8TB for the final *external* drive.


I was with you until you said external. Please reconsider. I have 5TB of reliable TiVo storage. It takes three TiVo boxes. But it's never failed. Even with a cable extension, I wish you would look at alternatives.

For me, TiVo boxes are like potato chips.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> I was with you until you said external. Please reconsider. I have 5TB of reliable TiVo storage. It takes three TiVo boxes. But it's never failed. Even with a cable extension, I wish you would look at alternatives.
> 
> For me, TiVo boxes are like potato chips.


I don't want to PAY for two additional TiVo boxes just to use their drives... Just activating the second one until I can get my (semi-)permanent solution finished up.

*Why do you object to an external drive? * As far as the Bolt will be concerned, it will be an "internal" drive. ONE continuous cable from Bolt Motherboard to HDD.
It will be an enterprise level 3.5" drive in a properly cooled and properly powered chassis, so it should last at least as long as the little blues in the OEM config.

(As I say, I am going to LEARN while using the Toshiba 3TB and the Seagate 4TB drives I already have on the way. I may discover that I don't need or want to worry about a 6 or 8TB drive.)

*Do you have an opinion on using WD's Enterprise level drives in the TiVo?* They're rated for 2 million plus hours MTBF, and up to 550TB data per year....

I am initially going to hack up one of the EXTRA Bolt cases I bought (on what I suspect are toasted Bolts) to house MY device, allow me to perfect handling a SATA drive external to the case, AND a proper thermal management design. Ultimately, I will likely take the guts of my system, the big (capacity and size) drive, and a proper 12 vdc power supply and integrate them into a single chassis of my own design and construction/modification.

(Note: I use linear supplies exclusively to keep the RFI level low in and around my property for amateur radio purposes. When I started, there were over 75 switch-mode power supplies in the house. I have reduced that number to something under 30 now.)


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

JoeKustra said:


> I was with you until you said external. Please reconsider. I have 5TB of reliable TiVo storage. It takes three TiVo boxes. But it's never failed. Even with a cable extension, I wish you would look at alternatives.
> 
> For me, TiVo boxes are like potato chips.


I think he wants to have the normally internal drive sit outside the case hence he talks about sata to sata. That way he can use a large 3.5" drive.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

UCLABB said:


> I think he wants to have the normally internal drive sit outside the case hence he talks about sata to sata. That way he can use a large 3.5" drive.


*PRECISELY! * Not to mention, I can properly power and cool the drive to maximize its lifespan.

While initially kludging it all up with a hacked up spare Bolt case and the Rosewill eSATA enclosure, if I get it all working successfully, I will either modify an off-the-shelf chassis or build a new one from scratch to house the Bolt guts , new hard drive, and a nice 12vdc linear power supply.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> *PRECISELY! * Not to mention, I can properly power and cool the drive to maximize its lifespan.
> While initially kludging it all up with a hacked up spare Bolt case and the Rosewill eSATA enclosure, if I get it all working successfully, I will either modify an off-the-shelf chassis or build a new one from scratch to house the Bolt guts , new hard drive, and a nice 12vdc linear power supply.


Sounds like you have a plan.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Use standard WD Reds. The Red Pro and the Gold drives are 7200RPM, which generate more heat and vibration that you don't need if you build a new all-internal chassis.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

ggieseke said:


> Use standard WD Reds. The Red Pro and the Gold drives are 7200RPM, which generate more heat and vibration that you don't need if you build a new all-internal chassis.


I realize the Golds are 7200 and that spindle speed is not necessary. I was looking at their AWR of 550TB. Heat I'm not worried about. Been designing thermal solutions for decades. I've kept 10k Barracudas near ambient before.

But the noise could be an issue. I've learned to appreciate low noise/vibration. I can suspend the drive from Sorbothane dampers.... but...

The Reds are quite a bit cheaper.... and the pair in my NAS have held up well.

I'm assuming there aren't enough folks using 3.5" Reds externally to know how they hold up over time.

Some things to consider... thank you!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

They should work as well as the green. All my Green and Red WD drives, I have in use, have been running for many years with no issues.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I've been busy at work.

I was going to suggest placing the fan over the heat sink, but you were clever enough to do it on your own and the and of course the ODT went way down. That's actually how we design some of our embedded products -- put a tiny fan over that heat sink and you're good to go. You don't even really need any ventilation holes. But we use SD cards and flash memory instead of hard drives.

The max. 55 C temp. for a hard drive is universal. Actually, it used to be 50 C, then 55 C, now modern models will even go up to 60 C. It's just a lubrication issue -- it starts to break down at high temperatures.

External enclosures are notoriously unreliable. The hard drives inside them are fine, but the electronics in the box are really cheap. Plus Tivo doesn't support them anymore.

By definition, PWM fan control is when two pins provide a constant +12 V and a third is a 25 kHz square wave telling the fan how fast to spin. The fan has circuitry in it that determines the duty cycle of the PWM signal and the fan adjusts its own speed accordingly. If there are only two pins, it cannot be PWM.

The Tivo fan control is done poorly because it makes more noise than it should. Some people simply use the +5 VDC pin on the USB port and find it's quiet yet provides enough power to spin the fan up. Others also upgrade the fan. If the fan noise isn't bothersome, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

BobCamp1 said:


> If there are only two pins, it cannot be PWM.
> The Tivo fan control is done poorly because it makes more noise than it should. Some people simply use the +5 VDC pin on the USB port and find it's quiet yet provides enough power to spin the fan up. Others also upgrade the fan. If the fan noise isn't bothersome, I wouldn't worry about it.


Since the TiVo's fan has two wires, it is running full speed all the time? But you said there is some control of the fan. I'm confused.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> They should work as well as the green. All my Green and Red WD drives, I have in use, have been running for many years with no issues.


Thanks! Are those Reds and Greens you are referring to being used in TiVo machines or other DVRs?


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

BobCamp1 said:


> Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I've been busy at work.
> 
> I was going to suggest placing the fan over the heat sink, but you were clever enough to do it on your own and the and of course the ODT went way down. That's actually how we design some of our embedded products -- put a tiny fan over that heat sink and you're good to go. You don't even really need any ventilation holes. But we use SD cards and flash memory instead of hard drives.
> 
> ...


No problem at all Bob! I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me. 

Yep, moving the fan over the processor was kind of a no-brainer once I decided to leave the case tops off until I could put together a better solution. The trick solutions would be a large SSD instead of a mechanical, but I don't have stacks of cash to burn on this. 

Thank you! Gotcha on the HDD temp max. I didn't realize that it was pretty much universal, though since you mentioned it, I HAVE been paying attention to the temp ranges on all the HDD specsheets I've read. Yep (at least) the enterprise/datacenter level drives are showing 60° C for the most part.... WD Gold anyway. I figured it was a lubrication limit for the most part. I remember when we were super-cooling systems many years ago, that we had to make sure we didn't get the drives too cold, either. 

Regarding External Enclosures: I understand TiVo doesn't support the eSATA externals, or any of what I am doing/gonna do either. I am simply relocating the internal drive external to the case for now... 1) Thermal concerns, and 2) can't shoe-horn a 3.5" drive in the OEM chassis. 

I'm gonna hack the case on the spare Bolt that arrived today as a temporary solution for and external fan over the processor blowing in and allow the existing case venting to serve as outlets (maybe partial close of existing fan grate to balance flow and insure cable card sees some air). I'll also hack a hole for the long SATA cable I have en route so I can move the hard drive to the temporary external enclosure (Rosewill). Using that external enclosure once I decide on a larger 3.5" drive to use as the FINAL drive.... and it will be a direct SATA to SATA affair, no inline connections or adapters inline. In the meantime, I'll be "practicing" with the 3TB Tosh and 4TB Seagate I already received. Not doing ANY hard drive swapping until I get a second TiVo up and running w/ monthly service to preserve recordings and OnePass stuff my wife is accumulating. Spouse Acceptance Factor (SAF) is always a concern, you know. 

Ultimately, I will either modify an off-the-shelf chassis or build one from scratch to house the TiVo electronics, the HDD, and (maybe) the power supply(ies). There's a lot of testing and design between here and there. I realize that little to none of this is required, but I enjoy the work and this unit will eventually be shut away in a wiring/equipment closet, and I want it to be bullet proof.... and I want this little box to run for a minimum of 3 years.

PWM: Thanks... I'm pretty familiar with how standard PWM fan control works. I'm not arguing with you... at all. I was simply pointing out that there are other ways of implementing PWM to control the power supply duty cycle of a fan, thereby controlling the fans speed.  And I agree with you that whatever method TiVo is using to control fan speed, they have done so at least in some batches with a noisy circuit. I'm fortunate, I guess, in that I cannot detect any noise associated with the powering of the fan. The fan itself is barely audible. Once I integrate the lot into my chassis and thermal design, it will be a moot point as it will be 1) silent, and 2) relocated to a location remote from the listening position. 

Have a great day!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Since the TiVo's fan has two wires, it is running full speed all the time? But you said there is some control of the fan. I'm confused.


No they aren't running full speed. Like other TiVos, when they initially boot up the fan is at full speed. But then The speed is lowered so it's much quieter. It is extremely loud when the fan is running at full speed.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*NOT A Variable Speed Fan in MY TiVo Bolt!?!?*

====================*

Added 02/11/2018* - Answer? Still don't know, for sure. Yes, I ran the test below, but I MISSED the much higher speed during cold boot-up. The fan CLEARLY runs at a higher speed when the machine is first plugged in. I am awaiting arrival of some pre-made cables from China for another purpose. I will use some of the spares to make an inline tap for the 2-pin header.

This will make it easier to run a boot-up test while monitoring the fan voltage. This voltage measurement and logic should better answer the fan speed control method question.

Then, I will run ANOTHER in operation test where I monitor the voltage and fan speed while I artificially raise it to temps higher than 82° C (as high as I can stand it, or until the high speed switch kicks in.... whichever comes first.)

=====================

Alrighty then..... I have verified that the OEM fan in MY particular TiVo Bolt is almost positively NOT a variable speed fan. 02/11/2018 - NOT SO FAST! Read above!!!

Here is how I tested:

1) At "rest" or 39-40° C, I observed and measured the fan:
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

2) Using a heat gun and the System Information Screen, I slowly heated the processor heatsink and motherboard overall until the ODT was 82° C.
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

Could not discern either by ear or using the SPL meter any discernible difference in fan noise level.
The voltage on the header was a rock steady 12.21 (+/- 0.03vdc) during the entire run.

Constant voltage and no increase in noise level indicates no speed change.

3) Removed VOM and heat source and monitored the visual and audible speed indications while the processor ODT returned to 39° C.
No visual or audible indications of a fan speed reduction during the 43° C temp reduction.

I find it highly unlikely that the first/only setpoint for fan speed increase is ABOVE 82° C.

Comments?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

clay.autery said:


> *NOT A Variable Speed Fan in MY TiVo Bolt!?!?*
> 
> Alrighty then..... I have verified that the OEM fan in MY particular TiVo Bolt is almost positively NOT a variable speed fan.
> 
> ...


I've never heard any change in my fan speed after it slows down during the boot process. But I've also never seen a temp above 71 on the Sys info screen.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Comments?


When I power on my PC (and previous PCs) I often hear the fan hit high speed then go quiet. This substantiates the post by aaronwt. But when I got my OTA Roamio last BF, the fan failed after six weeks. I bought a replacement and installed it. I powered up the TiVo with the cover off. At no time could I hear or observe any change in speed. The new fan has seven blades, the OEM has five. My MBT (it's a Roamio) is always about 37C. I have bought another fan and may replace my other TiVo soon since the MBT is creeping up. Two boxes, same room, same hard drive should be equal. Also the fans are both silent.

Everything about your post seems perfect. All I wish is that with your skill level, I would love it if you used a 'scope rather than a VOM. I'm still bugged about PWM.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

clay.autery said:


> Thanks! Are those Reds and Greens you are referring to being used in TiVo machines or other DVRs?


The AV rated Greens were always TiVo's choice for factory drives. Originally they were the EURS line, which was replaced by the EURX line. WD discontinued the AV Greens altogether recently, and new Bolts are shipping 2.5" Blues. Those NPVZ drives are almost impossible to find.

Most people here have switched to the standard Red NAS drives and I haven't heard of a failure yet.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

ggieseke said:


> The AV rated Greens were always TiVo's choice for factory drives. Originally they were the EURS line, which was replaced by the EURX line. WD discontinued the AV Greens altogether recently, and new Bolts are shipping 2.5" Blues. Those NPVZ drives are almost impossible to find.
> Most people here have switched to the standard Red NAS drives and I haven't heard of a failure yet.


I was very surprised when I bought my Roamio OTA last BF and found it has a WD10EURX WD Green. TiVo must have bought a bunch before they stopped production. That box has a mfg. date of 31 July 2017.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> I've never heard any change in my fan speed after it slows down during the boot process. But I've also never seen a temp above 71 on the Sys info screen.


I will do another test from a cold boot up to verify it doesn't have a fast speed on startup.

I have a quite recent production date. AND I don't have the noisy/buzzing from the motherboard when the fan is powered and blade manually stopped. (AKA: noisy regulator or other component in the pwr circuit).

It is possible that a "fix" was put in place to control for fan/circuit noise by removing the variable speed function and thus accounting for the much higher ODT I observed initially.



JoeKustra said:


> When I power on my PC (and previous PCs) I often hear the fan hit high speed then go quiet. This substantiates the post by aaronwt. But when I got my OTA Roamio last BF, the fan failed after six weeks. I bought a replacement and installed it. I powered up the TiVo with the cover off. At no time could I hear or observe any change in speed. The new fan has seven blades, the OEM has five. My MBT (it's a Roamio) is always about 37C. I have bought another fan and may replace my other TiVo soon since the MBT is creeping up. Two boxes, same room, same hard drive should be equal. Also the fans are both silent.
> 
> Everything about your post seems perfect. All I wish is that with your skill level, I would love it if you used a 'scope rather than a VOM. I'm still bugged about PWM.


That is common... to see high fan speeds right at startup... for various reasons... I've observed it many times. As I said above, I will check the fan speed from a cold boot and see if I can detect a higher speed.

ONE possible reason beyond aging fan for the temps creeping up is a deteriorating thermal interface between the heatsink and processor slug/case. Not uncommon in production applied thermal pads, or the like. A quality replacement interface material from Bergquist or similare may well return to previous temp... or better, fix the retention method to keep the heatsink squarely on the processor and use a quality thermal interface paste like Arctic Silver..... lap the heatsink flat and smooth (3000+ grit, higher the better) and you can get that interface layer to 0.001-0.003" or so.

Yeah, I wish I had a scope and/or a frequency counter that could reliably measure up to 100MHz.
When I retired, I lost access to most of my cool tools. I am still building my own lab. 



ggieseke said:


> The AV rated Greens were always TiVo's choice for factory drives. Originally they were the EURS line, which was replaced by the EURX line. WD discontinued the AV Greens altogether recently, and new Bolts are shipping 2.5" Blues. Those NPVZ drives are almost impossible to find.
> 
> Most people here have switched to the standard Red NAS drives and I haven't heard of a failure yet.


Thanks! I have 3TB Reds in my small/old Synology DS214+ NAS. Never heard an angry peep from them in over 3 years, but they don't see a super high read/write volume.

I'll have to give it some thought.... It's down to money and whether the difference between 28 and 36 dbA seek noise will be an issue.

Thanks all!


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

And the "AS IS" STORE RETURN ITEM. UNTESTED. No return at all." Bolt I bought off eBay is up and running.

I'm sure it was a store return because it was experiencing the dreaded "No Providers for your Zip Code.... Please try a different Zip Code" loop. Here are my details one of the two main threads on this issue:

No providers / channels in given zip code, first-time Guided Setup

FINALLY got it working and activation in progress. So, I can swap the cases out tomorrow and get busy. I'm inclined to put my 4TB Seagate in the backup machine FIRST, so I can copy over the recordings and 1Ps from the OEM 500GB drive. That way I'll only have to do a few updates when it's time to pul the OEM drive and put it up for storage. As I understand it, should I ever need to put the 500GB drive back in after swapping it out, it will get wiped on return to the machine.

Time for sleep!


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

OK.... Backup Box activated "Monthly, with a 1 year commitment".

TiVo said previous owner only had it activated for 3 days, so the 1 yr remains.
I explained that it was essentially a dead box that would have ended up in the garbage had I not brought it back to life from the "No Providers" problem.
They agreed. But they said the system won't allow a code change to "Monthly, WITHOUT commitment". BUT the CSR Supervisor agreed to put a case# and notes on my account to WAIVE ANY FEES associated with changes in service plans to include cancellation before the initial year elapses.

*Yea!* <just in case I need this box for longer than 30 days>


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*TRANSFERRING RECORDINGS:*

OK, used TiVo Online to successfully copy my OnePasses from the Primary (Hydra) Bolt machine to the Backup (20.7.4.RC18) Bolt machine.

But I cannot get any recordings to transfer.... And yes, I set the preferences for both boxes to allow "Video Sharing" (and video downloads for good measure). Reconnected to TiVo service on BOTH machines.

*Questions:*

*1) Do the machines HAVE to have the SAME software version in order to transfer recordings from Bolt to Bolt? If so, can it be Hydra OR 20.7.4.RC18, or does it have to be the old software on both? Or the NEW Hydra on both?

2) Do the machines have to be cold rebooted after the Preferences setting change and TiVo Service reconnection?

3) Any other ideas why I can't transfer my recordings from Bolt to Bolt using TiVo Online?*

I just need this to work! And I want it settled before we acquire too many more recordings!


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> *3) Any other ideas why I can't transfer my recordings from Bolt to Bolt using TiVo Online?*
> I just need this to work! And I want it settled before we acquire too many more recordings!


In SI, the TiVo To Go: should be a,a,a,a.

Since you could transfer the 1P, are the recordings allowed to be transferred? Some cable feeds copy protect non-premium content. Does TiVo Online show both guides and My Shows? No, software is not at fault. I transferred 320GB from my classic UI to my Hydra box and back.

What happens when you try to transfer? Just saying "it doesn't work" is not much to go on.

I keep forgetting this is new for you. Did you hit transfer twice? That box that pops up should just be labeled "Click Transfer to Start".


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> In SI, the TiVo To Go: should be a,a,a,a.
> 
> Since you could transfer the 1P, are the recordings allowed to be transferred? Some cable feeds copy protect non-premium content. Does TiVo Online show both guides and My Shows? No, software is not at fault. I transferred 320GB from my classic UI to my Hydra box and back.
> 
> ...


SI TiVoToGo: a,a,a,a on BOTH machines.

Yes, recordings on Primary (Hydra) are "allowed" to transfer. Have the check box AND I can download them to PC with kmttg. Yes, USA channel disables transfer entirely.

Yes, TiVo Online shows both Guide and My Shows.... and I can switch boxes in the upper right corner "Box: <bolt name>" IAW I can see both Guide and My Shows for BOTH boxes.

So.... you have transferred from Classic to a Hydra AND from a Hydra to a Classic? Bolt? You're on Roamios right? Wonder if it's different for Bolts? Shouldn't be.... although there are differing software extensions for different machines. pyTiVo can't push (or see) either of my Bolts, either. 

Apologize for the ambiguous description of the process I see... I believe I have been following the process to its conclusion.

I can select the recordings. I can select the other TivO Bolt to transfer to...
Hit the Transfer button
Transfer Window pops up....
_
"Your recording(s) are being transferred to Man Cave. You can check the status on the To Do List.
Note: Transferring may take some time. While transfers are in progress, do not delete the original recordings from your My Shows list."
_
Click "Transfer Recordings"

Transfer Window goes away....

Goes back to parent window with video(s) still selected.... and NOTHING else happens.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> So.... you have transferred from Classic to a Hydra AND from a Hydra to a Classic? Bolt? You're on Roamios right? Wonder if it's different for Bolts? Shouldn't be.... although there are differing software extensions for different machines. pyTiVo can't push (or see) either of my Bolts, either.


PyTiVo and other similar TTG programs do not work with Hydra at this time. There have been no other posts indicating TiVo Online fails to transfer when a Bolt is used. But things change. Sorry.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

On the classic TiVo, check two things. First is History. Anything? Next check Network Settings, Network Troubleshooting, Transfer History. Anything there?

On Hydra History is called Recording Activity. There is no ability to see transfer history.

The program should appear in the My Shows of the destination within five seconds. When it works.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> On the classic TiVo, check two things. First is History. Anything? Next check Network Settings, Network Troubleshooting, Transfer History. Anything there?
> 
> On Hydra History is called Recording Activity. There is no ability to see transfer history.
> 
> The program should appear in the My Shows of the destination within five seconds. When it works.


Thanks Joe.... Got it working....

It took 3 cold reboots, with a Tivo Service Reconnect after each.
All downloading as I type!

*Yea! Let the hacking begin!*


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> *Yea! Let the hacking begin!*


Curb your enthusiasm. 

What's the transfer rate? With a basic Roamio I get 93+ Mbps.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Curb your enthusiasm.
> 
> What's the transfer rate? With a basic Roamio I get 93+ Mbps.


Transfers already complete and SWMBO is watching on the main TV, but I'll do another test in a bit.

How/where do you get your transfer rate? (Sorry, I'm not at liberty to hunt for it right now..... 50/50 that I can't check on a Bolt.)


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Transfers already complete and SWMBO is watching on the main TV, but I'll do another test in a bit.
> How/where do you get your transfer rate? (Sorry, I'm not at liberty to hunt for it right now..... 50/50 that I can't check on a Bolt.)


On the classic UI: Network Settings, Network Troubleshooting, Transfer History. It doesn't survive a restart.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> On the classic UI: Network Settings, Network Troubleshooting, Transfer History. It doesn't survive a restart.


337.1 Mbps = 42.1375 MB/s

1Gbps switch on the router.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

clay.autery said:


> 337.1 Mbps = 42.1375 MB/s
> 
> 1Gbps switch on the router.


I've seen transfer rates average 500Mb/s throughput, with 20GB+ size recordings. But to have any chance of getting those speeds, it needs to be in standby with no tuners buffering and no recordings being made..


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> I've seen transfer rates average 500Mb/s throughput, with 20GB+ size recordings. But to have any chance of getting those speeds, it needs to be in standby with no tuners buffering and no recordings being made..


The 337.1 Mbps I quoted was set with both machines online, and 2 or 3 tuners in use... One being watched in LR, one via the Mini, and one recording. I'll do another one sometime when SWMBO is at work or something. 

*[EDIT] 02/09/2018* - Rechecked the transfer with 6 x 30 minute shows, both machines rebooted, no recording tuners, and on standby, mini on standby. Only thing I didn't do is reboot the switch/router and disconnect my laptop.

440.0 Mbps That my OCD self knows that "aaronwt" has done 500 Mbps makes me want to figure out WHY I can't. I hope I can resist the time-suck of such a task.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*Disk Swapping Related**: "Zero Writing a disk/drive to prepare/repair it for use in a TiVo Bolt or other device"*

Hope you find this useful and informative. Please click "Like" if you do so I will know whether to continue investing time in writing these little tutorials. Thanks! 

*WARNING: THIS PROCEDURE WILL DESTROY ALL INFORMATION ON THE SELECTED DRIVE. MISTAKENLY CHOOSING YOUR BOOT DRIVE/PARTITION WILL MAKE YOUR COMPUTER FAIL TO BOOT.*

I've seen references where folks talk about "low-level" formatting disks, zero writing, et al., disks that either have a problem or to prevent possible issues in the TiVo Bolt being able to recognize and format the drive successfully. MOST folks talk about putting the drive into their desktop/tower. A lot of us, even we mostly retired IS/IT types, no longer have anything beyond a laptop (at best). And most laptops won't even accept a 15mm thick 2.5" drive. Here is a solution.

IF you have a Windows (in my case v10) machine or boot option, you can use DISKPART to zero-write (aka: wipe) the drive clean sufficient for TiVo duty. As long as you can connect your drive to your computer via USB (preferably USB3.0+), the following procedure should work. I use the little USB 3.0 circuit card/connector from the Seagate Backup Plus I shucked for its 4TB drive and a longer matching USB 3.0 cable I bought to go with it, though the OEM cable will work.

Use the Windows "Disk Management" console to identify the "drive number" of the drive with which you want to work, and most importantly your BOOT DRIVE NUMBER, so you can make danged sure you do NOTHING to modify it AT ALL.

There is a "fork" in the following procedure that I choose in order to have a "progress indication" to know approximately how much longer before this LONG process completes.

*1)* Search for "cmd". Right Click on the entry in the list and Choose "Run as Administrator", or otherwise open an "elevated privileges" Command Prompt, to include logging in as Administrator (not recommended for security reasons).

*2)* Type *DISKPART*, at the command prompt. When you see the "DISKPART>" prompt, proceed to next step.

*3)* Type *LIST DISK* (In MY case, 2 drives.... Disk 0 (WINDOWS BOOT), Drive 1 (drive I want to work on)

*4)* Type *SELECT DISK "x"* ("Disk x is now the selected disk." Replace "x", to match the disk number of the disk/drive with which you need to work)

*5)* Type *LIST DISK* (Optional verification step. There will be an "*" in front of the "selected" disk. If it is NOT the disk you want it to be, fix it!!! <--- WARNING)

*6)* FORK: (Two ways to go here depending on whether you need to see a progress indicator. It takes about an hour per 320GB of Windows calculated drive size)

====================
*6(a)(1)* Type *CLEAN ALL* (This will initiate an ALL sector wipe of the hard drive with NO PROGRESS INDICATOR. When "DISKPART>" prompt reappears, proceed.

*6(a)(2)* Type *LIST DISK* (If the "Size" and "Free" numbers are equal, you are ready to "USB eject" the disk, and put it in your TiVo. Example: "Disk 1 Online 2794 GB 2794 GB")
====================
Second option gives you a progress indication to completion but requires additional steps. This is the method I choose to use.
====================
*6(b)(1)* Type *CLEAN* (INIT/BOOT section wipe. Will complete very quickly. (Optionally Type LIST DISK to verify "Size" and "Free" are same size.)

*6(b)(2)* Type *CREATE PART PRIMARY* (Creates a primary partition on selected drive. (Optional: LIST DISK, LIST PART, or LIST VOL to verify partition created AND the "*" is marking the disk/part/volume selected. IF it is NOT, use SELECT DISK "x" to get back on the right disk. IF you follow directions, all these scary warnings will be moot!)

*6(b)(3)* Type *FORMAT FS=NTFS* (FS=NTFS is optional, but I use it anyway. The default is 99.99% likely to be NTFS, and windows is smart enough to pick a GPT capable filesystem. If you want to know about how long it is going to take to finish, divide the reported "Size" in one of the LIST DISK commands by 320GB/hr to get the approximate number of hours to format. In my case it is 2794GB/320GB/hr = 8.73125 hours. This will initiate a FULL format where ALL sectors are zero written. Do NOT use the "QUICK" option. When "DISKPART>" prompt reappears, proceed.)

*6(b)(4)* Type *LIST DISK* (Optional verification step. There will be an "*" in front of the "selected" disk. If it is NOT the disk you want it to be, fix it!!! <--- WARNING)

*6(b)(5)* Type *CLEAN* (This executes a quick wipe of the INIT/BOOT sectors on your freshly fully zero-writen HDD.

*6(b)(6)* Type *LIST DISK* (If the "Size" and "Free" numbers are equal, you are ready to "USB eject" the disk, and put it in your TiVo. Example: "Disk 1 Online 2794 GB 2794 GB")

*7)* Type *EXIT* to exit DISKPART to return to the Command Prompt.

*8)* Type *EXIT* to exit the Command Prompt window. (Or Red "X" the window, but I consider that a bad habit.)

*NOTE 1:* IF in DISKPART you ever see your object (DISK, VOLUME, VOLUME) listed as "offline", issue the "ONLINE" command from the "DISKPART>" prompt and verify its return to "online" status prior to working on the object.

*NOTE 2:* IF you are fastidious about following directions/procedures, you can omit the "optional" steps and pair this procedure down. I don't happen to think it is worth the minimal time savings when I am futzing about with a tool that can WIPE MY BOOT DRIVE CLEAN IN FIVE SECONDS!!! Your decision. I will be triple careful!!!

*Have a great day! *


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

I like to use the write zeros test in WD's Data Lifeguard Diagnostics. It's a lot easier than diskpart and you can see the serial number of the drive.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

ggieseke said:


> I like to use the write zeros test in WD's Data Lifeguard Diagnostics. It's a lot easier than diskpart and you can see the serial number of the drive.


Well, there you go. Never occurred to me that the WD DLD wasn't vendor specific. Running it on a Tosh drive right now.
At least I got a DISKPART review and some command line time. Sometimes I wax nostalgic for the command line days. 

Thanks!


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*Backup Bolt Hard Disk Drive Replacement*

OK, with the backup Bolt (BoltBack) up and running, I moved on to replacing the disk drive to increase the storage capacity and frankly just for the practice using the tools and procedures.

Pretty uneventful really...

1) Removed 500GB drive with antenna wire clips left in place.
2) Removed SATA/PWR connector from OEM drive and put it in place on the Seagate 4TB drive. (no mount bracket yet)
3) Plugged HDD pwr and data cables in and set disk drive in place next to motherboard.
4) Booted BoltBack up to "Country Screen".
5) Pulled power plug from back of unit.
6) Attached 4TB drive to laptop using USB connector and wire mentioned in Post #75 above.
7) Ran mfsr.exe with right-click, "Run as Administrator", and reformatted the drive.
8) USB ejected and disconnected drive when it was finished.
9) Installed Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 in place of OEM fan, connected temporarily to OEM 2-pin header.
10) Mounted drive in bracket, put SATA interface back on it, installed and re-assembled BolBack fully, sans screws. (Left those out to aid disassembly later until all finished).

Booted machine up, completed Guided Setup, and machine is working perfectly with 640 HD hour capacity advertised.

Fan on OE 2-pin power header has dropped idle temperature of the box from 54° C to 49° C fully assembled. Will post back once the materials arrive to build the inline tap to power the fan from the HDD 4-pin header's 12vdc rail.

*NOTE:* I "prepared" the drive using the "B" option of the DISKPART procedure in Post #75 above prior to first installation. Not required, but I've decided this will be part of my standard procedure prior to placing ANY drive into TiVo service to remove drive condition from troubleshooting consideration if a problem arises. Alternatively, I may begin using WD's DLD if it works successfully in my testing.

Posting this at the top of the thread in one of the "reserved" posts.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*WiFi Adapter Related:*

Considering trying out one of the Roamio version VOX remotes that come with the Bluetooth dongle. If it works, I can remove the wireless card and antennas, and still have VOX capability. I'm becoming concerned that the Bolt's WiFi adapter, even not being used is interfering with my Router's WiFi some 12 inches away and may be vulnerable to attack since I have no way to monitor or control it.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Thanks! Are those Reds and Greens you are referring to being used in TiVo machines or other DVRs?


In my unRAID server, I have six WD 3TB GREEN drives, six WD 4TB GREEN Drives three WD 5TB GREEN drives, and four WD 8TB RED drives. I disabled parking on all the GREEN drives as soon as I got them. I only switched from to RED because the newer BLUE drives do not allow parking to be disabled. The 3TB drives have been continuously operational for more than five years and only one has failed. None of the other drives have failed.

I have a 2TB WD GREEN drive with parking disabled in my TiVo Premiere and it has been running solid for three years.

I would go with regular RED drives if I were buying now. In fact, I just put an 8TB RED in my Roamio last week.

The BOLT has a 4TB 2.5" WD BLUE WD40NPZZ in it. This is the second one as the first failed at just over 2500 hours. I thought that parking could not be disabled on the WD40NPZZ, but it turns out that it can so on this second drive I did not make the same mistake and I have disabled parking. Hopefully it holds up, but I have more confidence in the 3.5" drives be they GREEN or RED (or early BLUE with parking disableable).

craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

I have the same concerns as you with cooling on the BOLT however I am even more concerned with the hard drive health than SoC ODT. I think it's getting very hot in that case and that may be what lead to the first hard drive failure. I really want an internal hard drive just to keep everything neat and together. I'm probably going to cut a hole and mount a second 120mm fan right above the heat sink to push a lot more air through. I'll probably make some holes on each side of the case too to allow the air to flow through more freely.

We'll see, I'm in the early stages of planning. Right now the case cover stays off until I come up with something.

If you wind up with extra case parts let me know because I'd be interested in buying them.

Kind regards,
craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> I would go with regular RED drives if I were buying now. In fact, I just put an 8TB RED in my Roamio last week.
> 
> The BOLT has a 4TB 2.5" WD BLUE WD40NPZZ in it. This is the second one as the first failed at just over 2500 hours. I thought that parking could not be disabled on the WD40NPZZ, but it turns out that it can so on this second drive I did not make the same mistake and I have disabled parking. Hopefully it holds up, but I have more confidence in the 3.5" drives be they GREEN or RED (or early BLUE with parking disableable).
> 
> craigr


I will likely do 3.5" Reds in external enclosures temporarily and then incorporate them into a different, better chassis with a proper thermal control design.

I've read all the discussions about PMR vs SMR and all that, and I am sure that is one factor, but I believe the head parking issue AND thermal cycling from power cycles, and mechanical wear from spin-up/spin-down are equally or in sum, more important in the lifespan calculations.



CIR-Engineering said:


> I have the same concerns as you with cooling on the BOLT however I am even more concerned with the hard drive health than SoC ODT. I think it's getting very hot in that case and that may be what lead to the first hard drive failure. I really want an internal hard drive just to keep everything neat and together. I'm probably going to cut a hole and mount a second 120mm fan right above the heat sink to push a lot more air through. I'll probably make some holes on each side of the case too to allow the air to flow through more freely.
> 
> We'll see, I'm in the early stages of planning. Right now the case cover stays off until I come up with something.
> 
> ...


Yup, case tops stay off for now except for a few more tests I need to complete. Processor temperature is a concern for me solely from the desire to maximize the time I can keep this particular TSN/MAC functional to maximize the value of the lifetime service agreement.

Yes, thermal control of the disk drive is important too. Just because the drive has a 60C max doesn't mean you should run it anywhere NEAR that temp.
I will likely subdivide the disk drive area from the motherboard area in order to isolate the drive for thermal control. Additionally, I intend to mount the drive on isolation dampers to reduce for vibration reasons. Proper dampers convert the vibration to heat which a) stops them from re-transmitting back into the device, and b) lowers acoustic transmissions into the chassis and/or out of the chassis.

Not sure if I'll have extra chassis parts, but if I do, I'll let you know.

In fact, I need some Bolt screws right now.... the short and a couple long screws for plastic. The BackBolt was assembled almost entirely with machine screws (from the factory.... no sign at all of it ever having been opened to include inspecting the thread marks in the screw bosses)

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Yup, case tops stay off for now except for a few more tests I need to complete. Processor temperature is a concern for me solely from the desire to maximize the time I can keep this particular TSN/MAC functional to maximize the value of the lifetime service agreement.


Yup, same here. I want my lifetime service to be worth it. I don't care if the SoC is rated to withstand running at 1,000 degrees C. The chips are not designed to last forever and the cooler they are run the longer they will last. We learned that in Electrical Engineering 101; etched chips are designed to last about five years. In practice they typically last longer, but cooler run chips last MUCH longer.

Who knows, with ATSC 3.0 this all may be a moot point. But, my gut tells me that I will have plenty of use for my ATSC TiVo's for at least another five years or more. I think ATSC 3.0 will take a long time to catch on if it ever does. People don't feel like upgrading all their hardware and network affiliates don't want to spend millions to do it again when they just upgraded less than 15 years ago. IMHO ATSC 3.0 stations will be few and far between.

craigr


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## bootman_head_fi (Aug 3, 2008)

The bolt really needs to be in a standard case vs the fancy curved case it is in now.
Marketing vs engineering usually results in increased hardware churn.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

bootman_head_fi said:


> The bolt really needs to be in a standard case vs the fancy curved case it is in now.
> Marketing vs engineering usually results in increased hardware churn.


Yes, it should.

IMO, the curved case was MORE to make it the top device in a stack of devices in situations where it doesn't have its own perch/shelf, than it was to provide airflow under the case. Taller bumps on a standard box-type chassis would have insured clearance for airflow. In fact, the weird under-chassis space encourages an air-flow short circuit where hot air exiting the fan grill is piped back into the case via the (insufficient open area) intake vents. The ABS case has insufficient material or rigidity to have supported any appreciable weight had it been molded in standard dimensions.

Additionally, in their zeal to make it tiny (and save materials), the internal volume is woefully insufficient for thermal flow, proper sized heatsink, et al.

After analyzing it just a bit more, I believe I could write up a prioritized bullet list of engineering factors. Near the top would be "Minimize cost of production." Somewhere, some ways down the list would be "Thermal design minimally sufficient for x% of total sold to NOT fail due to high heat until the warranty expires." I'm guessing durability, customer convenience, flexibility, and many more cool things weren't even on the list.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*BoltBack Thermal Management:*

*02/10/2018* - Fan on OE 2-pin power header has dropped idle temperature of the box from 54° C to 49° C fully assembled. Will post back once the materials arrive to build the inline tap for the 4-pin, HDD power header.

*02/11/2018* - This will be updated in a piecemeal fashion as I accomplish other tasks.

At Idle, OE Fan (NCC): 54° C
At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 60° C
At Idle, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 49° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 56° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (NCC): 58° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 59° C

* CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
* LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.

====================

*Variable Fan Speed on 2-pin Header..... redux.*

*Added 02/11/2018* - Answer? Still don't know, for sure. Yes, I ran the test below, but I MISSED the much higher speed during cold boot-up. The fan CLEARLY runs at a higher speed when the machine is first plugged in. I am awaiting arrival of some pre-made cables from China for another purpose. I will use some of the spares to make an inline tap for the 2-pin header.

This will make it easier to run a boot-up test while monitoring the fan voltage. This voltage measurement and logic should better answer the fan speed control method question.

Then, I will run ANOTHER in operation test where I monitor the voltage and fan speed while I artificially raise it to temps higher than 82° C (as high as I can stand it, or until the high speed switch kicks in.... whichever comes first.)


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

Hey clay,

Have you taken the heat sink off any of your BOLT's yet? If so, was it a thermal pad or thermal past you found? If you haven't yet I would like it if you'd take the heat sink off your junk BOLT because I really want to know. If it's a pad I'm probaly not going to change anything, but if it's past I will definitely level the heat sink and replace the paste.

I just took the heat sink off my junk Roamio and was rather surprised to find paste. However, the Roamio also has a metal inner case that doubles as a second heat sink with a heat transfer pad attached to the PCB directly under the Broadcom. So it's cooled from above and below.

I'd like to know your findings.

craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> Hey clay,
> 
> Have you taken the heat sink off any of your BOLT's yet? If so, was it a thermal pad or thermal past you found? If you haven't yet I would like it if you'd take the heat sink off your junk BOLT because I really want to know. If it's a pad I'm probaly not going to change anything, but if it's past I will definitely level the heat sink and replace the paste.
> 
> ...


Nope, haven't taken it off yet, but from what I can tell with my mag glasses and a really bright light, it is some kind of phase change pad like these from Bergquist:

Phase Change Pads

They can be machine applied, and they are temperature activated, actually flowing at a set temp... The idea is that you thermal cycle the process/pad/sink sandwich at the right temp, typically ABOVE the normal op temp. Keep it there for a certain time, the pad flows and bonds the sink to the processor (thermally, not really mechanically). The springs in the pin fasteners put a minimal clamping pressure on the bond. Then you operate it below the flow temp and there ya go.

I don't have a "junk" Bolt yet. I have BoltBack running as a backup with a 4TB drive in it and am also using it for testing purposes.... That's where all those temps in Post #86/#2 came from.

I AM going to remove the heatsinks though. I just dropped an order for custom hardware for mounting the heatsinks with higher spring tension, and another setup that will be semi-rigid. I won't be replacing the pad with another pad, even the top-shelf Bergquist stuff I have here UNLESS the processor top is not true or has some massive run-out. I will be using Arctic Silver in the thinnest layer possible after I lap the heatsink mounting pedestal flat and smooth. Hence the custom hardware. Those spring-loaded nylon push pins are not intended to be removed and replaced.... you can get away with it maybe 6-12 times if you are careful... maybe more.

If you remove your heatsink and it is a pad, and you want to continue with a pad, it will need to be replaced. And if you do that, it'd be better to just go with AS5 or similar.

Yep, I've never seen a Roamio up close, but from your description, it is clear that it was much better built at least from a thermal design perspective.

I will keep you updated!


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*BoltPrime Hard Disk Drive Replacement*

*02/11/2018* - Installed the 3TB Toshiba drive in BoltPrime today using essentially the same procedure used on BoltBack on Saturday.

The only issue that arose was that the CableCard issues returned. Same 8 channels as the first time. Spent an hour on phone with Suddenlink. Verified that we agree on the Cable Card numbers. They sent the re-pair signal several times with various combinations of TiVo reconnects, cold reboots, et al. No joy. They are rolling a truck for the 3rd time... supposedly with a replacement CableCard.

*Hardware Order Submitted*

Researched and submitted an order today for a complete complement of Bolt fasteners to include the plastic and metal self-tappers, the machine screws for the WiFi card retention, and the machine screws for the CableCard bracket/slot.

Additionally, I calculated the specifications and submitted an order for heatsink mounting hardware in anticipation of replacing the assumed phase change pad with proper silver-based thermal interface compound.


----------



## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*BoltPrime Thermal Observations:*  Had a truck roll from Suddenlink again. The CableCard mysteriously lost the same 8 channels it had a problem with originally. So, I decided to put the case tops on and make some thermal observations with the replacement fan installed.

*DATA* - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:

At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 54° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 67° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 62° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 60° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 56° C

CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.
LSFI = LS as above with addition of fan exhaust isolator. (aka: . See images/dimensions.
"Sustained transfer" = Recordings being written TO the device under test (DUT) from another device.
_Note: All temperatures after "At Idle, OE Fan" are with 3TB Toshiba drive in place of the stock WD 500GB drive.
_
The following images illustrate "Left Side elevated" (LS), fan isolator prototype, and "Left Side elevated with Fan Isolator (LSFI), and Vertical.




*ASSERTIONS/ASSUMPTIONS* - As expected, the data here, combined with the BoltBack temperature observations, support the following:

*a)* The chassis "legs" are too short. On the right end of the case, half the vents leading to the case interior and CableCard bay are heavily obstructed. All of the limited inlet venting could benefit from being elevated to some degree.

*b)* The stock 15mm tall fan combined with the short interior height combines to reduce the headroom over the fan to such a point as to drastically reduce it ability to exhaust hot air from the chassis. The increased headroom over the 10mm tall fan clearly improves the exhaust flow.

*c)* An air-flow short circuit exists under the chassis. The curve under-chassis space inhibits rather than assists airflow. Air exhausting from the fan appears to be constrained under the chassis and actually feeds back into the intake vents.

*d)* Elevating the left side until the internal fan is parallel to the ground reduces observed ODT. This reduction is most likely due to a partial correction of the airflow short-circuit combined with improved interior conductive airflow. Increasing angles appear to further improve the disconnection between exhaust and intake (see e below) and encourage further increases in convective airflow interior to the case. Placing the chassis vertical resulted in an additional 5° C ODT temperature reduction, the lowest idle and loaded temps for any position thus far. NOTE: Simply elevating the left side helps, but insuring the right end inlets have a clear "view" of the exterior air supply also helps. (See right end in images below)

*e)* Further remedies for the airflow short-circuit lower the ODT temperature. In horizontally oriented positions, adding a barrier that walls off the higher temperature exhaust from the inlet vents that also serves as the elevating method assisted in reducing the ODT. Not a bunch, but it serves to prove that keeping the inlet air supply as cool as possible is important.

*f)* The configuration above is probably 90%+ of the maximum performance that can be achieved in stock trim.

*Bottom Line:* To achieve idle temps much lower than 59° C, we must a) get more heat out of the chassis, put more cool air into the chassis, increase airflow over the heat generators, especially the processor heatsink.

Potential TODO List:

1) Build a second fan isolation/elevation prototype.
2) Add ducted/forced air inlet to the prototype in #1
3) Test #2 with internal fan removed
4) Modify prototype to add a bigger fan to "vacuum" air OUT of the exhaust section.
5) Other stuff as it occurs to me... Some things will be tested on BoltBack for proof of concept prior to use on BoltPrime.

I'm hungry!


----------



## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

Clay, you're a bigger geek than me! LOL,


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

justen_m said:


> Clay, you're a bigger geek than me! LOL,


LOL! Could be, could be... Love this stuff! Haven't done much of it in decades, but it's fun.

Ever lapped a heatsink or a processor flat? :laughing:


----------



## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Nope, haven't taken it off yet, but from what I can tell with my mag glasses and a really bright light, it is some kind of phase change pad like these from Bergquist:
> 
> Phase Change Pads
> 
> ...


Please do keep us updated.

That said, I suspect that the heat transfer between the Broadcom SoC and heat sink is adequate based on two simple findings:

1) Just removing the cover lowers the ODT temp dramatically.
2) _*Putting a fan on the heat sink proved to lower the ODT temp even more and also dramatically.*_

If heat transfer was an issue between the Broadcom and heat sink I don't think opening the case, or especially adding a fan over the heat sink, would have such a large decrease in ODT temperature.

I am eager to see what you find when you replace the thermal pad with Arctic Silver 5 and level the heat sink. However, my hypothesis is that there will not be much change.

Also, I'm not making this guess in ignorance. Though I do not practice it, I have a 25 year old degree in mechanical engineering degree on heat and mass transfer. If you were able to put a thermal probe right under the heat sink next to the Broadcom and compare that with the ODT that would tell us something. A large temperature differential between the ODT and the hottest part of the heat sink would indicate a problem. A smaller temperature difference would obviously indicate the heat transfer is adequate.

Happy hunting,
craigr


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

clay.autery said:


> LOL! Could be, could be... Love this stuff! Haven't done much of it in decades, but it's fun.
> 
> Ever lapped a heatsink or a processor flat? :laughing:


Sorry, no not that big of a geek.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> Please do keep us updated.
> I am eager to see what you find when you replace the thermal pad with Arctic Silver 5 and level the heat sink. However, my hypothesis is that there will not be much change.
> 
> Also, I'm not making this guess in ignorance. Though I do not practice it, I have a 25 year old degree in mechanical engineering degree on heat and mass transfer. If you were able to put a thermal probe right under the heat sink next to the Broadcom and compare that with the ODT that would tell us something. A large temperature differential between the ODT and the hottest part of the heat sink would indicate a problem. A smaller temperature difference would obviously indicate the heat transfer is adequate.
> ...


Some 18 years ago when I was developing the original AS, we went through great expense and effort to accurately determine the best conditions under which the product would perform, application procedures, etc, etc ad nauseum. We used thermal probes, data acquisition hardware/software, all kinds of fixtures with sensors, and the like. We did conclusively prove that it was the best formulation on the market at the time if preparation and application were done properly.

The physics are not trivial of course. And you are correct in assuming that in general, optimizing the thermal junction between a heatsink and a processor (or SoC) is well down the list of things to do for improving thermal performance. But when you've done everything else and those last few degrees are needed, it can be a game maker/breaker.

In an ideal world, the thermal interface would be infinitesimally thin because the mating surfaces were so flat and so smooth that they met each other at 100% contact. Real world never gets there. but properly done, you can with little investment get to 0.001". I've actually made it to sub 1/1000th of an inch before. At these super thin layers is where the original AS stood out, because it could conform. Most thermal compounds have particle size variations such that the interface thickness is a function of compound particles holding the gap open in highly prepared interfaces. AS used really consistently sized and specially manufactured silver particles that would naturally WANT to lay out in a nice layer, fill in microscopic valleys, and minimize carrier "pooling". The carrier has poor thermal transfer qualities compared to the silver.

Somehow, I managed to NOT get out of California with any of that lab equipment... long story.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> *Thermal Management Update:
> *
> Just for grins, I unsecured the fan from its place and simply set it on top of the heatsink, blowing down. here are the results:
> 
> ...





clay.autery said:


> Some 18 years ago when I was developing the original AS, we went through great expense and effort to accurately determine the best conditions under which the product would perform, application procedures, etc, etc ad nauseum. We used thermal probes, data acquisition hardware/software, all kinds of fixtures with sensors, and the like. We did conclusively prove that it was the best formulation on the market at the time if preparation and application were done properly.
> 
> The physics are not trivial of course. And you are correct in assuming that in general, optimizing the thermal junction between a heatsink and a processor (or SoC) is well down the list of things to do for improving thermal performance. But when you've done everything else and those last few degrees are needed, it can be a game maker/breaker.
> 
> ...


No doubt that AS and proper leveling will allow easier heat transfer between the Broadcom and heat sink. I'm just saying that your experiments have proven simply removing the case and plopping a fan on the heat sink lowered the ODT 32 degrees C to a comfortable 41 degree C operating temperature. IMHO running the chip that cool is a plenty fine improvement without the trouble of chasing a few more degrees. I think the BOLT will outlast its usefulness with the SoC at 41 degrees C before the SoC fails ;-)

craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> No doubt that AS and proper leveling will allow easier heat transfer between the Broadcom and heat sink. I'm just saying that your experiments have proven simply removing the case and plopping a fan on the heat sink lowered the ODT 32 degrees C to a comfortable 41 degree C operating temperature. IMHO running the chip that cool is a plenty fine improvement without the trouble of chasing a few more degrees. I think the BOLT will outlast its usefulness with the SoC at 41 degrees C before the SoC fails ;-)
> 
> craigr


Quite likely, but stopping now wouldn't be any fun at all! And I already have the replacement heatsink hardware on the way. 
And as much as I dig the open chassis look, it's not a viable long-term solution. Although, I might consider clear sides and top for the new chassis. 

Check this out.... Propped BoltPrime up vertically a couple of hours ago. Right this minute, the ODT is down to 52° C. It's 0049 hrs, and the thermostat has been set at 65° F since 2200 hrs, so I suspect the temp is a bit lower than it was a few hours ago. In fact, the temp on the front of the Rosewill eSATA box with the 1 TB drive in it is exactly 2 degrees cooler than average. So I will normalize the vertical temp to 54° C. That is still a FULL 5° C reduction over the "Left Side elevated, Fan Exhaust Isolated" (LSFI) pictured in Post #90 and #1 above. I'm a little surprised.

The vertical position does concern me a little, primarily for the disk drive. I'm wondering what the drive temp is right now. Reckon the temp is higher than when the case sits flat or in the LS/LSFI positions? Additionally, you think having the disk drive motor almost on its side has any longevity implications regarding lubrication retention?

*NOTE: BoltPrime is my ALL-IN device that runs 73° C in stock trim with no mods and sitting horizontally.*


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Wait... you put your TiVo on top of your (high) heat producing AVR? That already seems a recipe for disaster - no amount of built in cooling can help if the device is soaked in hot ambient air from your receiver.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Worf said:


> Wait... you put your TiVo on top of your (high) heat producing AVR? That already seems a recipe for disaster - no amount of built in cooling can help if the device is soaked in hot ambient air from your receiver.


I thought VERY same exact thing when I saw the initial ODT measurement of 73° C. Here's what I said in Post #1 of this thread:

_POST #1: "This temperature reading shocked me. Isolating BoltPrime completely from external heat sources reduced the temp perhaps by a degree..."_

I temporarily set the machine up in a completely different place with no heat producers anywhere close. It MIGHT have made a one degree difference. So I moved it back out of convenience. ALL temperature readings in this thread are from that position atop my Samsumg Blu-Ray Player, which sits between BoltPrime and the Onkyo A/V Receiver. Apparently, it isn't having as much impact as one might expect, the ambient airflow is sufficient to reduce its impact to </= 1° C. OR, maybe the BlueRay Player (OFF 90%+) with its aluminum chassis is deflecting/absorbing most of the heat coming up from the AVR. Note that in the pictures the AVR vents beneath BoltPrime's right side vents are covered with CD/DVD sleeves to deflect the AVR exhaust. Additionally, the temps recorded in this thread are based on revised positions that keep BoltPrime wholly on top of the Blu-Ray Player.

While the AVR IS certainly a consideration, it is not at the top of the list.... yet. At some point, I will likely add a boxed riser between the AVR and components above with the "bottom panel" lifted on the diagonal as a baffle to direct the exhaust air to the rear away from other components.

Good thinking though!!!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I still have a 15mm, 4TB drive running in my Bolt. It has been running since October 2015. Although I did have another 4TB drive die last fall. But the drives did go through multiple Bolts. But since I got lifetime Bolts last year, I don't plan on getting any more. My previous two Bolts were on yearly. And the first two were from the eBay scam. Which I still have sitting in a closet for spare parts.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> I still have a 15mm, 4TB drive running in my Bolt. It has been running since October 2015. Although I did have another 4TB drive die last fall. But the drives did go through multiple Bolts. But since I got lifetime Bolts last year, I don't plan on getting any more. My previous two Bolts were on yearly. And the first two were from the eBay scam. Which I still have sitting in a closet for spare parts.


*Thanks.... have you ever had the drives oriented on their sides or vertically for a sustained period?*

I wasn't around for the "eBay Scam".... hot/stolen devices?

BoltPrime is an "All In"/Lifetime Bolt. BoltBack is a monthly, so far. I can't decide if I will keep BoltBack for a year or not.
I've upgraded BOTH with 3TB Toshiba and 4TB WD drives respectively, and have the original drives stored away should they be needed.

BoltBack and BoltDonor were purchased on eBay as "Parts Only" machines, both from July 2016 manufacture. They were returned to the store because they got caught in the database switchover and say they can't find Cable Providers for ANY zip code. I got one fixed. I will get the other fixed too.... eventually. I will likely resell one or both at some point. I was going to hack the case on one of the extras, but may not now that I have decided to simply go for a new or off-the-shelf chassis design to house BoltPrime and the 8TB WD Red drive.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

clay.autery said:


> Quite likely, but stopping now wouldn't be any fun at all! And I already have the replacement heatsink hardware on the way.
> And as much as I dig the open chassis look, it's not a viable long-term solution. Although, I might consider clear sides and top for the new chassis.
> 
> Check this out.... Propped BoltPrime up vertically a couple of hours ago. Right this minute, the ODT is down to 52° C. It's 0049 hrs, and the thermostat has been set at 65° F since 2200 hrs, so I suspect the temp is a bit lower than it was a few hours ago. In fact, the temp on the front of the Rosewill eSATA box with the 1 TB drive in it is exactly 2 degrees cooler than average. So I will normalize the vertical temp to 54° C. That is still a FULL 5° C reduction over the "Left Side elevated, Fan Exhaust Isolated" (LSFI) pictured in Post #90 and #1 above. I'm a little surprised.
> ...


I might do that. Because my shelf is cramped, my Bolt's left edge sits on top of my TA so the Bolt sits at about a 20 degree angle. So I might just set it on it's edge.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

UCLABB said:


> I might do that. Because my shelf is cramped, my Bolt's left edge sits on top of my TA so the Bolt sits at about a 20 degree angle. So I might just set it on it's edge.


I'm already drawing up a pedestal that will prevent tip-overs. Don't want to go around jarring those disk dirves and skipping those heads across platters. 
Should be able to print it on a 3D printer.

There's a commercial wall mount out there, but it does not appear to space the device away from the wall enough and the bottom cleat appears to block a bunch of the inlet venting. I'm still going to pull the covers off and leave it open. That is still the lowest temp for me, and until I was able to compare HDD temps between horizontal (LSFI positions) and vertical, I wouldn't be comfortable doing it long term. It might help the processor stay at 52-54, but put the HDD much hotter/near limits. Not likely, but I hate unknowns.

May go dig up one of my 4 fan controllers and use the thermistors to test it out...


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

aaronwt said:


> I still have a 15mm, 4TB drive running in my Bolt. It has been running since October 2015. Although I did have another 4TB drive die last fall. But the drives did go through multiple Bolts. But since I got lifetime Bolts last year, I don't plan on getting any more. My previous two Bolts were on yearly. And the first two were from the eBay scam. Which I still have sitting in a closet for spare parts.


Want to sell me one?

craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> Quite likely, but stopping now wouldn't be any fun at all! And I already have the replacement heatsink hardware on the way.
> And as much as I dig the open chassis look, it's not a viable long-term solution. Although, I might consider clear sides and top for the new chassis.


Wish I had some more free time for fun ;-). Which is why in this part of the project I will live vicariously through you and await your findings!

craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> Wish I had some more free time for fun ;-). Which is why in this part of the project I will live vicariously through you and await your findings!
> 
> craigr


LOL! I whole-heartedly understand and have been in your position before.

I am actually thinking about skipping the whole "hacking on the Bolt case" part.... Where I...

1) Hack a hole in the back of a case for a SATA cable pass-through. Rather, I think I'll simply hack up the Rosewill for the direct SATA connection and them plug it into the motherboard with case tops off. IF I can resurrect BoltDonor from the "No Provider...... your Zip Code" graveyard, I will sell it and make a little money.
2) When I'm done with the 8TB upgrade, I can sell BoltBack for a little bit extra since it won't have any remaining obligation on it.
3) Alternatively, I can sell the smaller 3TB Tosh and 4TB WD drives separately or perhaps as upgrades to the Bolt sales...

I'm pairing down the project at this point to focus on a few things:

1) Designing a 3D printable pedestal for the stock Bolt case to sit vertically, and perhaps a printable, vertical wall-mount that spaces it away from the wall a tad, and keeps the vents free.
2) Packaging up full sets of Bolt fasteners to recover some of my investment. Had to buy a BUNCH to get what I needed. I now own a pile of every stock fastener in the box.
3) Do the work/testing and finalize the removable heatsink mounting kit hardware, write the docs, and package up all the extras I have to recover some investment.
4) While the above is happening, be working on the designing a new or retrofitting an off-the-shelf chassis. I'd design a printed one, but I think I want it to be metal.

But tonight...... I need to get BoltDonor to download the 20.7.4.RC18 software so I can get it through Guided Setup!!!


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

clay.autery said:


> At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 49° C
> At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 61° C
> At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 56° C


I'd love to see a picture of how you dealt with the extra cable on the XS-2 fan. I ended up positioning it on top of the drive but had to lose the 2 plastic clips routing the WiFi cable to the fan (well the hard drive thickness also played a part there) and still had some issues getting that section of the end case not to bulge.

Scott


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

CIR-Engineering said:


> Want to sell me one?
> 
> craigr


I've already used them for spare parts. They aren't completely whole any more.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I'd love to see a picture of how you dealt with the extra cable on the XS-2 fan. I ended up positioning it on top of the drive but had to lose the 2 plastic clips routing the WiFi cable to the fan (well the hard drive thickness also played a part there) and still had some issues getting that section of the end case not to bulge.
> 
> Scott


I put a zip tie on the extra slack on my XS-2 fan. There was some open space that I tucked it into.

Also the newer enclosures have a channel, under the hard drive, to route the wifi cable. My original Bolts did not have this channel. But the ones I got from the lifetime transfer did. So there was no need to use the plastic clips since I could route the wire through the channel.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

HerronScott said:


> I'd love to see a picture of how you dealt with the extra cable on the XS-2 fan. I ended up positioning it on top of the drive but had to lose the 2 plastic clips routing the WiFi cable to the fan (well the hard drive thickness also played a part there) and still had some issues getting that section of the end case not to bulge.
> 
> Scott


I'll try to remember to snap a photo of it today when I take the tops off again. But basically what I did is this:

1) Fan is oriented with wire to frame entrance to the front immediately adjacent to the HDD connectors.
2) Make sure the cable has no twists in it at all, just a smooth loop. Plug in.
3) Hold the loop down flat over the HDD while you put the large top on. Try to allow the motherboard side of the loop to proceed to the front of the motherboard, going around the two alignment tabs on the top and then back out over the HDD.
4) Now just carefully feed the cable back into the case from the front part of the loop and tuck it as best you can.
5) Put second top on being sure it doesn't foul a clip.
Basically, keep it out of the way and stuff it on after big top is on and hope you don't further restrict the flow too much. 

I will shorten the cable appropriately and remove the braided sleeve when I get the materials to make the 4-pin header tap.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> I put a zip tie on the extra slack on my XS-2 fan. There was some open space that I tucked it into.
> 
> Also the newer enclosures have a channel, under the hard drive, to route the wifi cable. My original Bolts did not have this channel. But the ones I got from the lifetime transfer did. So there was no need to use the plastic clips since I could route the wire through the channel.


Yep, mine too.... I haven't paid a lot of attention to this since I don't plan to keep the HDD or WiFi/BLE adapter in the case in the long-term. But I'll look at it today maybe.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I put a zip tie on the extra slack on my XS-2 fan. There was some open space that I tucked it into.
> 
> Also the newer enclosures have a channel, under the hard drive, to route the wifi cable. My original Bolts did not have this channel. But the ones I got from the lifetime transfer did. So there was no need to use the plastic clips since I could route the wire through the channel.


I had tried a zip tie (I think based on your post) but it added to the bulk. Can't recall if I kept it or not now.

I need to pull the drive and run wdidle3 on it now that I know it works on the Blue 2TB drive so I'll check for the channel (mine was part of the lifetime transfer deal as well). I wasn't too concerned about not having the clips since the cable naturally stays roughly in place.

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

clay.autery said:


> 1) Fan is oriented with wire to frame entrance to the front immediately adjacent to the HDD connectors.
> 2) Make sure the cable has no twists in it at all, just a smooth loop. Plug in.
> 3) Hold the loop down flat over the HDD while you put the large top on. Try to allow the motherboard side of the loop to proceed to the front of the motherboard, going around the two alignment tabs on the top and then back out over the HDD.
> 4) Now just carefully feed the cable back into the case from the front part of the loop and tuck it as best you can.
> ...


Thanks, I'll compare this when I take it apart to do the wdidle3. I seem to recall that my fan cable is not oriented on the front toward the HDD connectors (I thought there was some interference that way versus out the right side).

Scott


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I had tried a zip tie (I think based on your post) but it added to the bulk. Can't recall if I kept it or not now.
> 
> I need to pull the drive and run wdidle3 on it now that I know it works on the Blue 2TB drive so I'll check for the channel (mine was part of the lifetime transfer deal as well). I wasn't too concerned about not having the clips since the cable naturally stays roughly in place.
> 
> Scott


I used one of the tiny zip ties, that are very short and narrow. And with a tiny head so it didn't stick out from the bundle of wire.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

HerronScott said:


> I had tried a zip tie (I think based on your post) but it added to the bulk. Can't recall if I kept it or not now.
> 
> I need to pull the drive and run wdidle3 on it now that I know it works on the Blue 2TB drive so I'll check for the channel (mine was part of the lifetime transfer deal as well). I wasn't too concerned about not having the clips since the cable naturally stays roughly in place.
> 
> Scott


What BLUE drive do you have? If it was made in 2016 wdidle3 may or may not work. If it was made 2017 or newer it most likely will not work. Western Digital took away the ability for wdidle3 to change parking on their 3.5" drives around mid 2016. However, I am not positive they did this on their 2.5" drives as well.

WD did this a few months after they dropped their GREEN branding and made the BLUE drives into GREEN's. The new BLUE drives are identical in every way to the old GREEN drives including factory firmware and their settings. The only thing different is that they made it so we couldn't change the parking time anymore. Really there is no physical difference between RED, GREEN, or BLUE, just the firmware's are set differently. The GREEN's have been dropped, the BLUE's are now GREEN's with parking permanently set at 8 seconds, and the RED's are the same drive with parking set to 5 minutes and TLER enabled.

I had an argument with WD on their forum about this and they deny it, but I am positive the only reason they stopped wdidle3 from working anymore is because RED / GREEN / BLUE are all exactly the same hardware, and WD just doesn't want people to be able to buy BLUE / GREEN drives to run in a NAS or other application that needs higher head parking times. The BLUE / GREEN cost half as much and disabling parking basically made them into RED's. I hate corporate marketing and greed like this. I see no reason why a person shouldn't be able to buy a BLUE drive and then do what they want with it. WD says it was designed specifically for it's application... blablabla...

Who knows, I haven't worked with enough 2.5" BLUE drives to know, but maybe wdidle3 still works on all 2.5" drives. WD claims it has not worked on any drive for more than 10 years, but I had been using it on all their drives until they disabled it mid 2016. They say I am wrong, but I have litterally changed parking times on hundreds of drives pre-2017.

craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

I attached wdidle3 2.0.0.1 to this post. It's impossible to find and WD will not admit it even exists. It works on some newer drives. On some newer drives it can read the parking, but can't change the setting. On many new drives it can't even read the timer though.

Best,
craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> I attached wdidle3 2.0.0.1 to this post. It's impossible to find and WD will not admit it even exists. It works on some newer drives. On some newer drives it can read the parking, but can't change the setting. On many new drives it can't even read the timer though.
> 
> Best,
> craigr


Thank you, sir! I really appreciate it!


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

*BoltDonor is Alive!*

My second parts machine is now fully functional on v20.7.4.RC18

I made a more complete post here:

No providers / channels in given zip code, first-time Guided Setup

Bottom Line: I had to activate the machine with TiVO to get the latest software.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

CIR-Engineering said:


> What BLUE drive do you have? If it was made in 2016 wdidle3 may or may not work. If it was made 2017 or newer it most likely will not work. Western Digital took away the ability for wdidle3 to change parking on their 3.5" drives around mid 2016. However, I am not positive they did this on their 2.5" drives as well.


It's the WD20NPVZ. Unfortunately, I'm not sure of the manufacturer date (it was purchased in November 2017) from Seatech through Amazon.

Scott


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## Doc Holiday (Dec 31, 2016)

> *DATA* - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:
> 
> At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
> At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
> At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C


I have had my Bolt, Speedy, sitting on a single fan variable speed laptop cooler at min speed for the last 14 months (Lepa Lepad V17 - discontinued). I also have the noiseblocker fan installed. Keeps ODT in the low to mid 50's and the skin temperature of the case is ever so slightly warmish to the hand.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Doc Holiday said:


> I have had my Bolt, Speedy, sitting on a single fan variable speed laptop cooler at min speed for the last 14 months (Lepa Lepad V17 - discontinued). I also have the noiseblocker fan installed. Keeps ODT in the low to mid 50's and the skin temperature of the case is ever so slightly warmish to the hand.


And what was your Idle, OE Fan, not cooler temp?
Idle, Noiseblocker Fan, temp?

Without knowing where you started, it's hard to appreciate where you got to. 

I'm looking at getting my ODT well into the low 40s from the stock 73 C. Putting a laptop cooler under BoltPrime isn't going to get there, nor will it address the drive temp, and the 8TB 3.5" drive will not fit in the stock chassis. I'm going to need a new chassis.

Glad it's working for you though!


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> And what was your Idle, OE Fan, not cooler temp?
> Idle, Noiseblocker Fan, temp?
> 
> Without knowing where you started, it's hard to appreciate where you got to.
> ...


clay I followed your lead last night and removed the stock fan and just put it on top of the Broadcom heat sink. ODT temp went down to 41 degrees C, just as in your experiment.

I really want a junk BOLT so that I can try hacking the case. I want to cut a hole and put a 100mm or 120mm fan on the outside right over the heat sink. I then want to provide exhaust vents on the sides of the bolt and hack the case internals tp provide some better cooling for the hard drive.

If you're going to replace the whole case, would you be interested in selling your original case? I have an extended warranty on my lifetime BOLT and don't want to hack up the original case (three years total).

What would be really awesome for me would be to find a junk BOLT VOX or BOLT+ with the black case. I'd love to be done with this stupid white case. If anyone sees a junk BOLT for sale on their local craigs list please PM me. I can't find one for a reasonable price at all. Been watching eBay like a hawk, but haven't found any ;-(

craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

Also a tip for if you have to remove and replace the case on a BOLT multiple times...

Don't screw the case down and just put the one hard drive mount screw in place that does not hold the case down. That way you don't have to remove the cover over the hard drive with the clips from the case (it just comes off with the case). IOW the case comes off without removing any screws or removing the cover over the hard drive ;-)

craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

Just a stray thought... I wish TiVo made a higher end BOLT with a real NICE case. I would pay more for it. While I’m wishing, I would like it to do OTA and cable at the same time, or at least have the option for either. The last nicely finished box that met my criteria was the two tuner Premiere which I own, but two tuners isn’t enough for a single DVR anymore.... sigh.

craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> I really want a junk BOLT so that I can try hacking the case. I want to cut a hole and put a 100mm or 120mm fan on the outside right over the heat sink. I then want to provide exhaust vents on the sides of the bolt and hack the case internals tp provide some better cooling for the hard drive.
> 
> If you're going to replace the whole case, would you be interested in selling your original case? I have an extended warranty on my lifetime BOLT and don't want to hack up the original case (three years total).


The two Bolts I bought were for junk purposes, about $50 each, but since I have reclaimed them both, I won't hack on them. I was going to do the 120mm fan on top and modified exhaust venting, et al, but I'm probably not going to do that now. I need to house the Bolt guts and an 8TB, 3.5" drive in the same box... not to mention some kind of power supply to feed them both.

Either way, I'm not going to have a spare case. My original case has to go in a box for potential warranty return for 36 months along with the original HDD. And I need to sell BoltDonor to recoup some funds. Need to sell BoltBack, too, but not going to do that until I know I don't need a place to backup to and restore from.



CIR-Engineering said:


> Also a tip for if you have to remove and replace the case on a BOLT multiple times...
> 
> Don't screw the case down and just put the one hard drive mount screw in place that does not hold the case down. That way you don't have to remove the cover over the hard drive with the clips from the case (it just comes off with the case). IOW the case comes off without removing any screws or removing the cover over the hard drive ;-)


Yeah, I've not been putting the screws back in cases from the second time I opened one up. And now, I have both Bolts Prime and Back open topped.



CIR-Engineering said:


> Just a stray thought... I wish TiVo made a higher end BOLT with a real NICE case. I would pay more for it. While I'm wishing, I would like it to do OTA and cable at the same time, or at least have the option for either. The last nicely finished box that met my criteria was the two tuner Premiere which I own, but two tuners isn't enough for a single DVR anymore.... sigh.


Yep.... 6 tuners. At a minimum, both Cable and OTA setups/guides stored on disk and available on reboot. Ideally, there would be a software switch available that could hot-switch one to the other. It IS doable... I suspect they simply don't think they can justify the production costs... The 4-tuner Bolt Cable/OTA was a step in the right direction and what finally got me to come aboard.

At this point, I am considering putting BoltBack on and annual plan, and trying to upgrade to a second LifeTime at some point at a discount.... Then run one bolt each on Cable and OTA.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

clay.autery said:


> At this point, I am considering putting BoltBack on and annual plan, and trying to upgrade to a second LifeTime at some point at a discount.... Then run one bolt each on Cable and OTA.


Yeah, right now I have a BOLT lifetime (primary TiVo) for OTA and a Roamio OTA with a cable card installed (it's also running OTA right now too). But, I bought the Roamio because when I switch back to Comcast for internet it's always cheaper on promo with TV included and usually comes with HBO or Cinemax. Kind of funny that I run the Roamio OTA with the intention to use it with cable ;-)

craigr


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

CIR-Engineering said:


> Yeah, right now I have a BOLT lifetime (primary TiVo) for OTA and a Roamio OTA with a cable card installed (it's also running OTA right now too). But, I bought the Roamio because when I switch back to Comcast for internet it's always cheaper on promo with TV included and usually comes with HBO or Cinemax. Kind of funny that I run the Roamio OTA with the intention to use it with cable ;-)


Yeah, I'm within a few dollars of the Suddenlink Promo price right now, but don't have the free 12 month HBO/Showtime yet.... I've dropped my monthly bill by about $65 so far, but when I get a paper bill to work from I am going for the last few dollars, free cable card, and 12 months free HBO/Showtime, or I am gonna cancel cable.

Told them if they jack with me, I'll dump them altogether.


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## Doc Holiday (Dec 31, 2016)

clay.autery said:


> And what was your Idle, OE Fan, not cooler temp?
> Idle, Noiseblocker Fan, temp?
> 
> Without knowing where you started, it's hard to appreciate where you got to.
> ...


My initial temps were very inline with what you have measured. Stock was 73C under load. The Noiseblocker brought that down 8-9C, and the laptop cooler brought it down another 9-10C.

Sitting the Bolt on a laptop cooler does address the drive temp as the case temperature of the Bolt is greatly reduced. I didn't put a thermocouple in the case, but my well calibrated palm would estimate a similar reduction in case temperature, which would directly translate to a lower drive temp.

I had an idea for vast improvement in cooling but never got around to implementing it. The basic idea is to remove the tiny fan in the bolt and duct the laptop cooler to the stock fan location. You could effectively route the airflow from a 12 cm fan through the case without cutting or modifying it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Doc Holiday said:


> My initial temps were very inline with what you have measured. Stock was 73C under load. The Noiseblocker brought that down 8-9C, and the laptop cooler brought it down another 9-10C.
> 
> Sitting the Bolt on a laptop cooler does address the drive temp as the case temperature of the Bolt is greatly reduced. I didn't put a thermocouple in the case, but my well calibrated palm would estimate a similar reduction in case temperature, which would directly translate to a lower drive temp.
> 
> I had an idea for vast improvement in cooling but never got around to implementing it. The basic idea is to remove the tiny fan in the bolt and duct the laptop cooler to the stock fan location. You could effectively route the airflow from a 12 cm fan through the case without cutting or modifying it.


Isn't that a bit excessive?


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> Isn't that a bit excessive?


To whom are you speaking and about what specifically?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

clay.autery said:


> To whom are you speaking and about what specifically?


The post above my post.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Going back to series 2, I have bought Tivos. watched shows and erased them; occasionally keeping something (breaking bad finale) (UCONNChampionships) . never opened a Box, never had an issue except for a Roamio original straight from Tivo. I appreciate if you have the skills and the motivation...rip open those boxes!! I just dont get it. I've never dug inside my receiver which is going on year 4. hasnt been turned off the whole while except for moving and power disruptions. No judging..enjoy yourselves. Is it worth all the time, money and effort?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

"Knowledge is Power"


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

Just got this case on eBay for $25 shipped:

Replacement TiVo BOLT System 4K DVR Media Player / Streamer NO Drive Or Acc | eBay

I should be able to sell the cable card socket back on eBay for more than that 

Let the mods begin.

And Clay, what did you find after using AS5 and leveling the heat sink?

Best,
craigr


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

Well Clay, I am not worried at all about doing anything with heat sink compound ;-) Here is what I did to get consistent ODT below 30 degrees C.

LINK: My Awesome BOLT Cooling Mods ;-)

Best,
craigr


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## darklyte (Sep 17, 2003)

clay.autery said:


> I was going to hack the case on one of the extras, but may not now that I have decided to simply go for a new or off-the-shelf chassis design to house BoltPrime and the 8TB WD Red drive.


@clay.autery Have you had any luck tracking down a good off-the-shelf case for the Bolt guts?

I just got a Bolt and am surprised how crappy the case design and hot to the touch it is so, actively searching for an off the shelf mod. A few cases I've come across so far on Amazon that seem like they could be a fit are:

1. M350 Universal Mini-ITX PC enclosure - $44

2. CUK Axiom TS Small Form Factor LED Mini ITX - $60

3. Silverstone Tek Aluminum Top Cover/Steel Body Thin Mini-ITX Media Center - $65

Just some thoughts, I have to open up the Bolt to see what the guts look like and figure out PSU compatibility.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

Nope... I gave up. I mounted a 120mm Noctua fan on top of the case, and cut the back panel to accommodate the custom right-angle SATA to straight SATA cable I am using to run to the external 8GB HHD enclosure. I've got too many other projects competing for my time.

I took the original HDD and fan and stored it in the original box/case in the attic should I ever need to do a warranty exchange (bought a 3 year warranty).

Working great and runs super cool.... mid 30s. If I would go back and put in some additional (properly located) exhaust holes, it'd drop by a bunch more.

ALL THREE of the cases you linked to have definite possibilities! Be sure to post back with your completed Mini-ITX solution!!!



darklyte said:


> @clay.autery Have you had any luck tracking down a good off-the-shelf case for the Bolt guts?
> 
> I just got a Bolt and am surprised how crappy the case design and hot to the touch it is so, actively searching for an off the shelf mod. A few cases I've come across so far on Amazon that seem like they could be a fit are:
> 
> ...


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

darklyte said:


> @clay.autery
> Just some thoughts, I have to open up the Bolt to see what the guts look like and figure out PSU compatibility.


Shine a light on the case top or sides, you can see right inside it. At least the black case is translucent.


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## darklyte (Sep 17, 2003)

Resist said:


> Shine a light on the case top or sides, you can see right inside it. At least the black case is translucent.


Good tip, thanks! I wouldn't have guessed to try that, though I'm not surprised the case is so cheap you can see through it! :laughing:

My old S3 is built like a tank and still running 10+ years. Between the bad engineering/design of the Bolt case and hydra software I'm regretting my upgrade from that S3. (I did roll back the UI)

It does look potentially easy to just drop everything into a new case that would have better cooling options and support a 3.5" HD. There may be some alignment issues to sort out and dealing with the IR receiver but I don't think it would be too challenging.


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## darklyte (Sep 17, 2003)

clay.autery said:


> Nope... I gave up. I mounted a 120mm Noctua fan on top of the case, and cut the back panel to accommodate the custom right-angle SATA to straight SATA cable I am using to run to the external 8GB HHD enclosure. I've got too many other projects competing for my time.


Looks like there is an empty 4-pin header on the MB, did you power up the new 120MM Noctua fan directly from that? 
CIR-Engineering did an additional custom mod for powering the fan and was curious how you addressed that.


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## clay.autery (Feb 3, 2018)

darklyte said:


> Looks like there is an empty 4-pin header on the MB, did you power up the new 120MM Noctua fan directly from that?
> CIR-Engineering did an additional custom mod for powering the fan and was curious how you addressed that.


No, I didn't use that vacant 4-pin header. I'm not sure what it is intended for, but when I checked it with my volt meter, I could not find a 12vdc supply pin...

Instead, I bought some some pre-made 4-pin Male to Female extension harnesses... The original idea was to hack two of them together into a Y-cable to power both the HDD and the 120mm Noctua fan from the HDD header on the TiVo motherboard. That header has +5 and +12 vdc and 2 grounds.... albeit non-standard pinout, so you have to meter them and make sure you make the connections correctly.

However, since I am using an external enclosure for my 8GB drive and it has its own power supply, I simply swapped the pins around on ONE extension harness and used it to plug the fan in without modifying either the TiVo or the fan harness. Works great.... Note: I inserted one of the supplied speed attenuators supplied by Noctua to reduce the RPM on the fan to reduce the noise. The fan is quieter and still gives me the temps mentioned above.

IF I go back and either put it in a Mini-ITX case or modify the donor case to iimprove airflow (reduce back-pressure), I may switch to the other attenuator (to raise the speed) or remove it altogether. I believe the noise I am hearing at full speed is echoing back out of the intake due to back-pressure on the fan. If the pressure is reduced, I think the noise will be reduced as well.


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## darklyte (Sep 17, 2003)

Thanks, great info that's going to help me a lot.

Yeah, I am still researching a new enclosure and what might work, I measured the Bolt Vox motherboard and its approximately 190MM x 155MM which I don't think is standard and presents challenges from the start in mounting since it wont align with Mini-ITX, plus it needs to be a little higher off the bottom due to the cable card. 

In the meantime drilling some holes in the bolt case and attaching a fan seems easier/cheaper. Sounds like that is where you ended up as well.


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