# Dealing with the 6.3 Reboot/Freeze Issue



## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

Okay, here's what I've experienced, and learned from reading this forum extensively over the past few weeks: 

1) Ever since the release of 6.3a, my HR-10 has been unstable. We had audio dropouts, but more annoying were the reboots. We hoped for a quick fix with 6.3b. 

2) 6.3b came along, maybe it fixed the audio dropouts (I haven't watched enough TV to notice, with the holidays here), but it DEFINITELY didn't fix the freeze/reboot issues, in fact it might be worse. 

3) We did a Clear & Delete Program Data and our system was stable for about 2-3 days. No evidence of reboots, we thought we were so smart and home free. But after about 3 days we started having reboots and freezes again, and now it's a daily problem. 

4) It's highly unlikely that this is a hard disk problem; our drive is relatively new, and shows no other signs of problems that one would expect with a dying drive. More importantly, so many other people are experiencing reboots and freezes with 6.3 a/b that it would just be too much of a coincidence. I'm not willing to spend $$ on a new drive only to have the same crappy software running on it. 

5) If I call DTV, I am most likely to have someone tell me that my drive is failing and after spending several hours on the phone I might convince them to give me a "free" HR-20, which based on what I've read, isn't any better and is possibly worse. That sounds like a lousy option. 

6) The only people on this forum reporting a real fix for this problem are those who set their machines back to the 3.1.5f software, using IC or whatever. I would do this if it were easy (please don't tell me how easy it is -- my home computer setup would inevitably make this much more complicated than it needs to be), or if I could send my box off somewhere and have them do it, but I am uncomfortable opening the TiVo box and taking out the drive, much less putting new software on it. I'm not a computer idiot, but I'm just not comfortable with this -- anyone want to come to my house and do it for me? 

So...what are my options? I could quit DTV and Tivo altogether, but I do prefer DTV to Dish or Comcast (NFL stuff). The alternatives seem vastly inferior. 

This is so frustrating. I think DTV should be all over this problem, and send us a new software release, but I'm not holding my breath. Are there too few of us to make a difference? I realize that these forums are mostly full of people reporting problems, and maybe those of us with reboots/freezes are the minority, but I doubt it. I bet there are a lot of people with HR-10s who have no idea why their TiVo is rebooting but don't come to this forum. 

I also think there should be an option to return to 3.1.5f without having to open your box and hook it up to a computer. I'd gladly live without folders to not have constant reboots. 

The only silver lining is that it's rerun season, and we haven't lost or missed anything important. YET. But that's all going to change soon, and I want a solution. 

Anyone have any advice for this frustrated Tivo addict? Is there anyone on here who has a good idea of what's causing the problem and how we can possibly work around it? If the C&D Program Data seemed to be a temporary respite from it, maybe I should be doing that every night? But then I'm faced with having to reenter my shows to record (incl Season Passes) every day, which means I lose the main benefit of Tivo and have something much closer to a VCR. 

Help!


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

I started a thread about this issue here ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333276

I am trying to contact my technical resources at DirecTV and will hopefully get more information about what the heck is going on.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanks...I read your thread, and am heartened to see that you are trying to contact some people. 

This is so frustrating.


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

litzdog911 said:


> I started a thread about this issue here ....
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333276
> 
> I am trying to contact my technical resources at DirecTV and will hopefully get more information about what the heck is going on.


Good to hear that someone is looking into it... it's really frustrating to think that I have zero options if I want a stable HD DVR at this point, with the exception of taking out the hard drive and using a PC to revert to an old version of software.

Yes, the HR20 is unstable, imho, at this point. The HR10 was at least stable, which is the most important thing. It's too bad something in 6.3 has caused these problems to start surfacing.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

What's really difficult to understand is, since we are basically dealing with a very "closed" system here (ie: it's not like a PC, which can have an infinite variety of hardware and software), why does this problem not affect every single HR10 that is running 6.3x software? I have one machine running 6.3a, and one running 6.3b, and neither one has frozen or rebooted -- at least not while I was watching. I'm not suggesting that *I* did anything to cause this wonderful behavior, because I didn't -- I'm just really wondering why so many units would have problems, while others cruise along as though nothing ever happened. 

Could there be differences in these machines that we don't know about? Different firmware or different chip manufacturers? There's got to be a reason for this. I wish I knew the answer ...


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

videojanitor said:


> Could there be differences in these machines that we don't know about? Different firmware or different chip manufacturers? There's got to be a reason for this. I wish I knew the answer ...


I agree, this is interesting, that it doesn't affect everyone who has a Hughes box. Is the software just exposing some flaw in the hardware or firmware, and that hardware/firmware isn't the same in every box?

Or is it possible that some downloads of the software slices were corrupt in some way?

On another note, can you send me one of those non-rebooting DVRs you've got? After all, you have TWO.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

juliedrys said:


> On another note, can you send me one of those non-rebooting DVRs you've got? After all, you have TWO.


Oddly enough, I just sold one of 'em on eBay, so now I only have one -- and I'm keeping it.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

I have also noticed that many reports of the hanging/freezing problems are from the Seattle area. I wonder if it's only affecting certain cities? Perhaps it's related the problems with Guide Data? Who knows. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything from DirecTV.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm not in the Seattle area, and this problem for us started right after 6.3a. 

Also, I think there's a clue in the fact that after we did a Clear & Delete Program Data (not Everything), it didn't freeze or reboot for almost 3 days. What does that tell us?


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Let's hope it's some kind of problem with corrupt guide data and just goes away on its own. The fact that several people have reverted to 3.1.5 or used InstantCake to go re-install 3.15 makes simultaneous collective hard drive failure all that less likely.

It can't even be 6.3x by itself. We all got it at different times, use our Tivos in different ways, and didn't start experiencing the rebooting "en masse" until recently. I, for one, had 6.3a for almost a month with only the audio drop out bug, before I started getting hit with the rebooting issue.

Again, I hope it's guide data because that seems easy to fix. If it requires another software release, we're probably screwed.


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## tvl76 (Oct 5, 2005)

I'm in the Phoenix area. Running 6.3a, only problem I had was the audio drops on FOX. Never had a random reboot. This I know because the 30 sec skip always worked. 

Then last week, after a scheduled phone call the night before, I had the gray "powering up" screen, and could never get it booted up again. I assume my machine tried a reboot to install 6.3b.

Since then I replaced HD. (Weaknees, came with 6.3a) I still get the audio drops, but no reboots. 

Can't *D just re-issue 3.1 software?


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## JonR (May 1, 2004)

I had the same reboots / frozen screens you all have described and I believe the root of the problem lies with the database conversion process from 3.1.5x to 6.3x. In some units I believe during the database conversion process part of the HD became corrupt and is causing the reboots / frozen screens. I also believe the majority of HR10's were completely successful in the database conversion with NO corrupt areas on the HD.

Last week I removed my original WD HD from my HR10 and placed it in a bare bones PC (only HD connected) and booted on a floppy disk, that I downloaded from the WD web site, which contained the WD diagnostic tools. I ran a "Quick Media" test which immediately returned an error about the HD containing errors which required a "Full Media Scan" which I allowed the software to perform. After an hour and a half the software reported it had completely scanned the HD and it had successfully repaired several areas of the HD. I immediately re-ran the "Quick Media" test and after several minutes the software finished and reported NO errors. I put the Tivo drive back into the HR10 and the unit has performed flawlessly ever since.

I'm not saying this is your situation I'm just trying to show you that after the 6.3a update my HD had corrupt areas for whatever reason that caused the HR10 to Freeze / Reboot just like many of you have described above and after I corrected the corrupt areas on the HD everything was worked as it should. It only makes since if it were software related ALL the HR10's would exhibit the Freeze / Reboot problem and as we know there many units operating without issues.

My '2' cents,
John


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## zach (Feb 14, 2004)

I am in St. Louis and am also experiencing similar issues to those reported in the thread. I have 6.3a.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

jcricket said:


> It can't even be 6.3x by itself. We all got it at different times, use our Tivos in different ways, and didn't start experiencing the rebooting "en masse" until recently. I, for one, had 6.3a for almost a month with only the audio drop out bug, before I started getting hit with the rebooting issue.


This rings true with me, too, because we didn't have reboot issues until about a month after we got 6.3a. Of course 6.3b didn't fix them at all.

Reading Jon's comments about how he removed the drive and ran a scandisk program on it made me think this might be the way to go. It's entirely possible that the software download caused some disk errors to manifest themselves.

For you techies: how hard will it be for me to do the following, and would it make sense:

1) Remove the drive from my HR-10 (eek, this part scares me, tell me it's easy!)
2) Put the drive in an external drive enclosure that allows me to connect it to my laptop via USB or whatever. Question: will it boot up like a regular external drive, or do I need some software for this? 
3) Download and run the diagnostic for the drive, hopefully fixing whatever errors it finds. 
4) Reinstall the harddrive into my HR-10 and hopefully be done with reboots and freezes that the errors were causing.

This is something I think I can do. I don't have a stable desktop system to connect the drive, so it makes the most sense to connect to my Win XP laptop using a USB drive enclosure.

Am I missing anything here? It still sounds scary, but maybe worth a shot.

Any advice?


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

juliedrys said:


> 1) Remove the drive from my HR-10 (eek, this part scares me, tell me it's easy!)
> 2) Put the drive in an external drive enclosure that allows me to connect it to my laptop via USB or whatever. Question: will it boot up like a regular external drive, or do I need some software for this?
> 3) Download and run the diagnostic for the drive, hopefully fixing whatever errors it finds.
> 4) Reinstall the harddrive into my HR-10 and hopefully be done with reboots and freezes that the errors were causing.


Taking the drive out is easy -- just need the proper size Torx screwdriver -- unscrew two screws, remove the power and IDE connector and it's out.

The rest of it though, not too sure about that. I've heard that it's unwise to connect a TiVo drive to a machine that's running XP. Apparently XP will write some kind of signature on the drive, thus hosing it. Whenever I have messed with TiVo drives, I've disconnected my XP drive, and either booted to a floppy, a CD, or a plain hard drive that's got DOS and nothing else.

Hopefully someone else will have some clear cut answers for you.


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

You absolutely do NOT want to boot attached to a WinXP machines. There's a utility that can perhaps repair the drive if you do so by accident. From the Weeknees instructions at www.upgrade-instructions.com:


> Booting into Windows 2000 or XP with a TiVo drive connected to your PC will overwrite key information on the TiVo drive. The TiVo drive then won't work in a TiVo. If you do run into this problem, you may be able to fix the drive using software called MakeTiVoBootable.
> Most of the diagnostics I've seen let/want you to put them on a bootable floppy, so then you aren't booting to the XP drive, and don't trash the boot sector on the TiVo drive.


My answer is to have an old POS PC I got from my company's annual sale of obsolete PCs they sell for $100 and use that for all TiVo work.  Then I don't ever mess with any of my live desktops or laptops, and the cables are there ready to go. Of course, you may not have that luxury.


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## temp357 (Feb 18, 2004)

juliedrys said:


> Okay, here's what I've experienced, and learned from reading this forum extensively over the past few weeks:
> 
> I also think there should be an option to return to 3.1.5f without having to open your box and hook it up to a computer. I'd gladly live without folders to not have constant reboots.
> 
> Help!


If you are located in SoCal drop by and I'll downrev your hr10.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

temp357 said:


> If you are located in SoCal drop by and I'll downrev your hr10.


Thanks, appreciate that, but I'm in NorCal.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

Based on the responses to my proposed solution for removing and repairing the drive (thanks everyone), I don't think it's something I want to attempt myself. 

I am going to ask WeaKnees if they can do this diagnostic for me. They should be able to, since it's their drive in my unit. 

Argh.


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## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Oh, well, heck, if it's one you got from WK, they should be able to help you out. I thought it was a home-grown unit.


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## juliedrys (Sep 7, 2004)

leesweet said:


> Oh, well, heck, if it's one you got from WK, they should be able to help you out. I thought it was a home-grown unit.


Well i originally contacted WK about this and they said if it's a software problem they can't help, because they are hardware guys. They suggested I wait for 6.3c. That gave me a good laugh.

But now I'm thinking that it's a software-caused hardware problem, and maybe they can help.


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## temp357 (Feb 18, 2004)

Just tell them you want to downrev your tivo to 3.1.5f. You'll have to send it in and you will lose everything, but worth it if you ask me. And do not plug your phone back in after you get it back. Otherwise the cycle repeats


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## JonR (May 1, 2004)

I will migrate back to a HD that I've used in the recent past that has 3.1.5f installed if 6.3b does not resolve ALL my issues (Audio Drop / Reboots). My question to you Tivo gurus; Is there a way to disable the daily nag screen that tells me to plug in the phone line?

Thanks,
John


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

JonR said:


> I will migrate back to a HD that I've used in the recent past that has 3.1.5f installed if 6.3b does not resolve ALL my issues (Audio Drop / Reboots). My question to you Tivo gurus; Is there a way to disable the daily nag screen that tells me to plug in the phone line?
> 
> Thanks,
> John


Not without installing some hacks (e.g. using Zipper - see "Tivo Underground Forum" here).

I'm thinking of doing the same, by the way. Two "gray screen" freezes just this morning, both times will my HR10 was recording a local station (DirecTV SD feed, not HiDef). I have not yet actually had it reboot itself, only freeze up. I wish it would hurry up and find 6.3b so I could see if that helps, although several thread here with similar issues with 6.3b.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

videojanitor said:


> What's really difficult to understand is, since we are basically dealing with a very "closed" system here (ie: it's not like a PC, which can have an infinite variety of hardware and software), why does this problem not affect every single HR10 that is running 6.3x software?...I'm just really wondering why so many units would have problems, while others cruise along as though nothing ever happened...I wish I knew the answer ...


Me too, but even more than that I wish TIVO knew the answer, and knew how to fix it. If it were not a thorny issue, we probably would have seen a fix many weeks ago, tho, or maybe there would not have been a problem in the first place.

But I don't think there's much mystery why it appears to affect some boxes and not others. Like every microprocessor-based system with complicated system software, there are always constant imperfections in how the software runs. But they have (usually) a high threshold of visibility, or consumer impact. It is rare when the threshold for a reboot or a buffer overflow is reached, and identical machines doing identical tasks will even react slightly differently under the same exact circumstances. Under 6.3/a, the threshold seems to be breached significantly more often than under 3.1, but that could still mean that some folks just won't ever see the problem, or will perceive it to have the same occurence as under 3.1. Also, what any two people try to record can be quite different, and can either contribute to or help avoid the potential for a problem.

Tivo doesn't just run perfectly and then decide to spontaneously reboot for no reason, just like a kid with the flu doesn't feel perfect all day and then suddenly barf on your shoes for no reason. That sort of event (for Tivo) is usually the culmination of problems with ongoing processes that are not typically apparent to the user until things get to a crisis point. More typically, the system develops soft problems that don't really affect things much and seem pretty invisible up to that point.

So, it could very well be that all 6.3/a boxes are constantly running less well than they did under 3.1, but that the problems are for the most part the unseen 7/8ths of the iceberg. What the user sees is not the whole story.


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## mgoddard1 (Jun 2, 2004)

While I was watching a recorded show and nothing else was being recorded my tivo spontaneously rebooted. This has happened at least 3 times since I've had 6.3b. This time I dug into the logs and found this in tverr:

Dec 28 04:50:48 (none) Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore[29001]: Tmk Fatal Error: Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore <29001>: unexpected signal 11
Dec 28 04:50:48 (none) Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore[29001]: Tmk Fatal Error: Thread died due to signal 11
Dec 28 04:50:48 (none) Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore[29001]: Invoking rule 834: rebooting system

A more complete log is attached to this post.

So what I can tell from this log is that a some sort of cached guide view database is created occasionally and the code that handles this (DbGuideViewCacheChore) went off into the weeds. For those of you who have 6.3b and can see their logs has anybody else seen this particular reason for a reboot?


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## addictsw (Mar 20, 2005)

litzdog911 said:


> I have also noticed that many reports of the hanging/freezing problems are from the Seattle area. I wonder if it's only affecting certain cities? Perhaps it's related the problems with Guide Data? Who knows. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything from DirecTV.


Seattle area customer here who just started getting freezes (I've had audio dropouts for a long time now) around five days ago or so.


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## RexB (Apr 25, 2004)

> I have also noticed that many reports of the hanging/freezing problems are from the Seattle area. I wonder if it's only affecting certain cities? Perhaps it's related the problems with Guide Data? Who knows. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything from DirecTV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same here - I live near Seattle and v6.3a worked well for two months (had to check my log for the date) before the resets and lockups happened for three days a week ago. Unplugged the HR10-250 and plugged it back in, and no resets or lockups for 3.5 days now. KOW.

I haven't had any probs with the guide, although it is sometimes slow and balky.

Inconsistently strange and random problems are tough to diagnose. I hope there is coming good news from D*TV/TiVo, if you hear anything litzdog911.


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## JonR (May 1, 2004)

A week ago I removed my Tivo HD and ran a low level utility that indicated there were media errors which it repaired. I re-installed the drive back into the Tivo and have been running with NO problems until last night. I was watching a recorded show when I pressed the left arrow key to exit the program and the unit instantaneously rebooted. So much on my theroy it was HD related unless the HD has developed more errors which I'm not going to check until I receive 6.3b which I have NOT. I have a 3.1.5f HD waiting in the wings but I wanted to give 6.3b a try before replacing as most people are NOT having a problem with 6.3b.

Is 6.3b still rolling out? and if so why does my unit not update?

Thanks,
John


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## clueless2 (Jun 24, 2004)

mgoddard1 said:


> While I was watching a recorded show and nothing else was being recorded my tivo spontaneously rebooted. This has happened at least 3 times since I've had 6.3b. This time I dug into the logs and found this in tverr:
> 
> Dec 28 04:50:48 (none) Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore[29001]: Tmk Fatal Error: Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore <29001>: unexpected signal 11
> Dec 28 04:50:48 (none) Activity DbGuideViewCacheChore[29001]: Tmk Fatal Error: Thread died due to signal 11
> ...


Anyone have a contact at DirecTV that they could send this log file to?


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