# Just a Rant - GRRRrrrr



## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

I've been a TiVo owner a long time... longer than most. I had one of the first original TiVo Series 1 units to hit the market (and the darn thing is still running like a champ - mom now has it). 

I'm a huge fan. LOVE TiVo. Have turned many-a-friend and family member on to it... turning them into equal TiVo addicts. 

A few years back I bought a 16:9 HD-ready TV... and have become increasingly frustrated.

I do NOT want to go to my satellite company's DVR (Dish Network)... I have one already (on another TV in the house) and it sucks! It is NOT TiVo!

I have a long list of things TiVo has done right... but my list of things they've done wrong is growing.

...HDTV support for more than just specific providers with specific boxes. It doesn't help me that Direct TV has a limited TiVo box (I won't switch satellite companies, and have to pay and arm and a leg for a box that I lose features with!).

...limited Mac Support. I have multiples PCs in this house with Macs and Windows machines and would love it if I could get TivoToGo recording onto my iPod video more easily! And NO, I don't want to put iTunes on my Windows machines. And YES, I'd like to be able to enjoy TTG programs on my Mac!

...bad marketing! TiVo should be rocking the market with a DVR that is so much better than anything out there (IMO). How can it be that I still meet people who don't know what TiVo is after so many years?

...did I mention HDTV support? How many years before I can buy a stand-alone TiVo box that will support HD? I'm a die-hard TiVo fan for years now... am I going to have to give up my TiVo and move away from giving their company business because I get tired of waiting to take advantage of the nice HD Television I bought??? 

Maybe it's a technical issue I don't understand, but let me tell you, if they can make HDTV-ready televisions, I don't understand the holdup in making HDTV-ready TiVo boxes!!

Please TiVo Bigwigs... I beg you... come up with an HDTV solution. Sell your licensing or whatever to Dish Network or whoever will buy it. Get on the ball with HD! Yeah, transferring to my new iPod video would be nice and all, but have a fully functional, HDTV TiVo box in my entertainment rack is really what I've been waiting for!!!

Really, I say this all with love... LOL... can you feel it?

Come on guys!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

you need to read this forum more often


look in my sig for the anouncement on dual tuner HD TiVo in 2006.
Mac support has been posted here by TiVo employees slated for mid 2006.

You may reply you have heard it all before but if you read this forum once a week you would see that this stuff is coming. Keep an eye on CES announcements from TiVo. that starts up Jan. 5th


PS - of course how this fits into Dish network is something you will have to puzzle over a bit. The HD dual tuner is greatly simplified in design and lower in cost becasue the FCC has mandated cable cards to allow 3rd parties easy access to the digital signal on cable access.

Sat providers have no such mandate at this time and you will have to figure a way to get from Dish proprietary box HD to TiVo HD or else switch to cable


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

I need to read the forum more often to hear "wait some more, really, it's coming"... ? That's pretty funny Zeo. Would be a lot different if you told me I need to read the forum more because there were options already available... but hey, what do I know, right? Come on now... I don't need to read more often just to hear I'm still sh*t out of luck.

Does ATSC include Satelitte providers? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.
And I'm not interested in going back to my rip-off cable company who charges WAY too much money for inferior service (thank-you-very-much)  -- Matter of fact, as soon as FOIS is available in my area for internet access, I'll kiss my cable company goodbye for good. My brother-in-law just switched over, so it's coming.

There's really no excuse for the lag with some of this stuff. HD has been available for quite a while now, and getting increasingly popular. You can't sell TiVo boxes to people who are already taking advantage of HDTV if you don't have one compatible with it -- and that's just a dumb business move... LOTS of customers out the window for good because they ended up with their lame cable/satellite company's box.

And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales. Any idea how long it just took me to do the conversion the "hard way"... too long to be convenient enough to use often for a lousy 1-hour show. 

I make these arguments because I LOVE my TiVo... not because I hate it. Think about it... if you can't keep your fans on board, how are you going to sell to a new audience, or fight against your proponents?

You can't. You lose.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I hate to break it to you but even when that new HD unit comes out in a few months it still aint gona work with Dish. It's going to be a CableCARD unit that will record HD from either cable or OTA ATSC signals. It will NOT have generic inputs like the current SD TiVos do today. In fact such a device is impossible! HDTV is broadcast as a pure digital signal. The only way to record it is to capture that signal in it's original digital format. Since Dish uses a propritary system for broadcasting their digital stream and does not allow 3rd parties to develop recievers there is no way TiVo will ever be able to produce a HD DVR that works with Dish. So if you insist on sticking with Dish then your only option for recording HD is to get one of their crappy, non-TiVo, DVRs.

Now if you're willing to be a little more flexible then you have some options. One of them, available right now, is to switch to DirecTV. The other is to switch to cable in 4-6 months and get one of the new CableCARD units. (TiVo is also working with Comcast to put TiVo software on their leased DVRs)

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> I need to read the forum more often to hear "wait some more, really, it's coming"... ? That's pretty funny Zeo. Would be a lot different if you told me I need to read the forum more because there were options already available... but hey, what do I know, right? Come on now... I don't need to read more often just to hear I'm still sh*t out of luck.


 well if you want to rant about things that have been specifically slated for next year than have fun with that. TiVo has never before said a standalone HD unit was going to be released. This time they have said it will be out in 2006. But rant instead of read and then poke fun at me for telling you the scoop, have fun with that.


> Does ATSC include Satelitte providers? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.And I'm not interested in going back to my rip-off cable company who charges WAY too much money for inferior service (thank-you-very-much)  -- Matter of fact, as soon as FOIS is available in my area for internet access, I'll kiss my cable company goodbye for good. My brother-in-law just switched over, so it's coming.


 then I suggest you write to DISH network about using TiVo software. really how do you expect TiVo to make an HD box for a closed proprietary receiver. If you are going to stick with Dish you have to go with their HD DVR.


> There's really no excuse for the lag with some of this stuff. HD has been available for quite a while now, and getting increasingly popular. You can't sell TiVo boxes to people who are already taking advantage of HDTV if you don't have one compatible with it -- and that's just a dumb business move... LOTS of customers out the window for good because they ended up with their lame cable/satellite company's box.


 as noted above the sat and cable providers are not exactly opening up their systems for TiVo. The sat providers have pretty much shown they are sticking with their own closed proprietary receivers and DVRs. The main reason TiVo can finally think HD for cable is because the FCC mandated a standard open access for cable in the form of the cable card.

you are better served to start rants aimed at DISH and the FCC.


> And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales. Any idea how long it just took me to do the conversion the "hard way"... too long to be convenient enough to use often for a lousy 1-hour show.
> 
> I make these arguments because I LOVE my TiVo... not because I hate it. Think about it... if you can't keep your fans on board, how are you going to sell to a new audience, or fight against your proponents?
> 
> You can't. You lose.


many here do not understand what happened on Mac support, myself included. But "ride the coat tails[sic] of Apple" To where? There are certainly a lot of Mac users who bought into TiVo early on but I doubt the lack of Mac support made a noticeable dent in the bottom line for SD TiVos. Looks like TiVo will time things right by getting Mac support back in time for the HD boxes. since the correct quote by Jobs is "This is the year of HD *editing*" If TiVo can provide HD content to a Mac and support the best resolution possible on the iPod video (both very likely in 2006) then TiVo will be miles ahead of any other DVR unless Apple anounces its own HD DVR at CES, which I think unlikely. I think they will continue with a mini that can organize and play all kinds of media and download it easily from iTunes for a price. and oh yah, we have some recording software we may do some more work on after we finish making iTunes the prominent store for video.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Dan,

If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not.
And DirectTV is no answer for the reason I stated. Hasn't anything to do with being flexible. I'm not willing to pay 3 times as much for a box with less features (DTV is a LIMITED TiVo box, not a full featured one). Lets also not forget that DTV is going to stop supporting/offering TiVo pretty soon.

And Zeo, I was trying to be good natured about it above.

Your scoop isn't any scoop. It's something I've heard for a LONG time... yeah yeah, it's coming. Doesn't change the fact that some of these are things that should have already been available.

It's not just Dish Network... it's a LOT of other companies, and maybe that's because TiVo already missed the boat. Remember how Steve Jobs originally missed the same boat (the one Bill Gates jumped on)? I don't know what happened with TiVo or why, but apparently everyone else thinks they can make and offer a better DVR/PVR now, and while us TiVo users already know the deal, that isn't going to keep TiVo in business. DirectTV is jumping ship too. My local cable company offers their own DVR already... and if Dish Network, DirectTV and my local cable company (who I already said I despised) can't offer me a TiVo compatible system (or vice versa), what choice will I have but to jump ship if I really want to take advantage of HDTV?

And while you say I shouldn't rant about TiVo but at Dish and the FCC how do you know I'm not? Besides the point anyway, if TiVo is going to stay in business they are going to have to survive the switch-over to HDTV... they aren't going to do it because the FCC mandates it. Maybe it's a battle they can't win, I have no idea... and if that's the case, well it's just sad.

No, lack of Mac users don't make a "dent" -- but now that the iPod video is available, and a larger percentage of those people will be mac users (with mac sales up quite a bit), they are closing their own doors on themselves... and not opening themselves up to lots of NEW business that could be there. These are the kind of sales pitches in board meetings that help make a company grow. "Hey, Dish Network guys, we have this idea that instead of you going with archos we team up to provide a kick-a*s DVR that also had the ability to dump to the already widely used iPod (not some lame whoever heard-of-Archos system) ... and we'll have it ready to go the same day the iPod video hits the streets."

But then you get into all the hollywood guys who get their panties in a bunch about the prospect of people downloading their stuff for free cause they watched it on TV... *sigh*

HD on an iPod (at this point) is pointless. The year of HD Editing refers to the home film-editing market, widely available HD camcorders, and iMovie HD, Final Cut HD, etc. People getting HD onto their 3" iPod screen doesnt' matter. Mac Support does, whether it's HD or not.

And YES, maybe you should read more, because there are already lots of rumors about a Mac PVR/DVR, and Mac home entertainment systems -- "Described as a version of the Mac Mini, Apple is reportedly looking to deliver unique DVR capabilities in the Intel-based devices next year. (dec 2, 2005)"


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ps. another quote for ya...

"We have all heard the rumors of an Intel-base Mac Mini being released in January. ThinkSecret has more information supporting that fact, as well as the possibliity that the new Mactel Mini will be re-introduced as a digital hub for the home.

The new project is codenamed Kaleidescope and includes Front Row 2.0 and a Tivo-like recording application." (Forever Geek)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> ps. another quote for ya...
> 
> "We have all heard the rumors of an Intel-base Mac Mini being released in January. ThinkSecret has more information supporting that fact, as well as the possibliity that the new Mactel Mini will be re-introduced as a digital hub for the home.
> 
> The new project is codenamed Kaleidescope and includes Front Row 2.0 and a Tivo-like recording application." (Forever Geek)


yes that was talked about a while back and is what I was referring to in talking about the mini really being more of a media player and front end to iTunes. "TiVo like" was used generously. The Apple software for recording shows is just not very advanced yet, It does not seem to be Apple's focus for the mini. I only used scopp in the broad sense of giving the info. My DVR info mainly comes from this forum and I have no illusions of being the first to say any of this.

And if you want to overlook what Dan and I both said that TiVo can not provide an HD DVR for a closed receiver such as Dish than have fun with your rant. The simple fact is that until the FCC tells the sat companies to open up their system ala cable card or Dish decides to work a deal with TiVo which is very doubtful - you will be stuck with the DVR Dish decides to provide with whatever features they have or can be hacked. Does it have firewire?

Cable Card is only now getting traction. So there was a very large technical hurdle to overcome and for the Sat providers it looks like the FCC mandating access is the only way you will get your wish of a Stand Alone HD TiVo for sat..


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

I think many of us are just looking for a HDTV SA2 unit that works with any tv provider we choose. We all love our tivos and hate to be limited to any provider because they support Tivo. D* was the choice for many of us because they supported tivo and offered us great units like the hr10-250. Now the winds have changed and comcast customers are about to get a great deal. I have mediacom and am very interested in the CC tivo but I've already made a large investment with D*. So many of us would like to have a HDTV SA2 unit that works with whoever and whenever we want. 

I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales.


TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.

When I read your rant, I expected to see that this was posted way back, since most of the stuff you're complaining about has been announced as coming out this year.


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## nyjklein (Aug 8, 2002)

generalpatton71 said:


> I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?


For several thousand dollars, yes!

That's the whole point. HD Digital is completely different than SD analog. While it was relatively easy and inexpensive to produce the hardware needed to process and record an analog TV signal, it would be REALLY expensive and difficult to do the same with the UNCOMPRESSED digital outputs that are fed out of the component or DVI/HDMI connections. All consumer level HD DVRs need access to the compressed digital signal (ATSC for broadcast, QAM for most cable systems and some MPEG2 or MPEG4 for satellite). Other than the broadcast stuff, the only way a DVR can get access to the other compressed streams (often encrypted) is with the cooperation of the providers. CableCard tries to help with this for cable systems but still needs the cable providers to be compliant and provide and support the cablecards. Satellite providers have no similar technology on the horizon (or mandated) so the only way to get at their stuff is for them to effectively "build it".


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes that was talked about a while back and is what I was referring to in talking about the mini really being more of a media player and front end to iTunes. "TiVo like" was used generously. The Apple software for recording shows is just not very advanced yet, It does not seem to be Apple's focus for the mini. I only used scopp in the broad sense of giving the info. My DVR info mainly comes from this forum and I have no illusions of being the first to say any of this.


You said apple was unlikely to get into the PVR/DVR market. You're just wrong. And since it's not out yet, you might want to hold of criticizing it. Let's see which comes out first. TiVo HD and iPod support (across both platforms), or Apples Mac Mini home media center.



ZeoTiVo said:


> And if you want to overlook what Dan and I both said that TiVo can not provide an HD DVR for a closed receiver such as Dish than have fun with your rant. The simple fact is that until the FCC tells the sat companies to open up their system ala cable card or Dish decides to work a deal with TiVo which is very doubtful - you will be stuck with the DVR Dish decides to provide with whatever features they have or can be hacked. Does it have firewire?


YOU are overlooking the facts. I do not have HDTV +TiVo options where I live. I'm not going to buy a box limited in features. Dish Network doesn't offer it. Neither does my cable company. And I hear NO plans for any of that to become reality in the near future. I have the ability to listen, maybe you do not.

And until whoever, whether FCC or someone else, decides to do something about the current state of affairs, TiVo sales will continue to drop and TiVo will lose loyal customers -- and guess who loses? ALL of us.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Cable Card is only now getting traction. So there was a very large technical hurdle to overcome and for the Sat providers it looks like the FCC mandating access is the only way you will get your wish of a Stand Alone HD TiVo for sat..


And that's exactly what my rant is about. It's all taken so darn long that I don't even know if TiVo will be able to survive -- don't kid yourself... whether the FCC mandates it or not, MOST people will just get the DVR available for free or lease through their cable/satellite company. Unless TiVo really starts to sell itself as so different from what's out there already (now that YEARS have gone by), we are all going to end up giving up our TiVos... and that's exactly what I don't want to happen!



generalpatton71 said:


> I think many of us are just looking for a HDTV SA2 unit that works with any tv provider we choose. We all love our tivos and hate to be limited to any provider because they support Tivo. D* was the choice for many of us because they supported tivo and offered us great units like the hr10-250. Now the winds have changed and comcast customers are about to get a great deal. I have mediacom and am very interested in the CC tivo but I've already made a large investment with D*. So many of us would like to have a HDTV SA2 unit that works with whoever and whenever we want.
> 
> I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?


Generalpatton you are exactly right. Maybe there are technical hurdles to jump over, but nothing is uncrackable. The more popular HDTV gets, the more TiVo (and other DVR systems, DVD-R systems, etc.) are going to have to figure out a way to support it.



MickeS said:


> TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.


This is just wrong thinking. Whether Apply owns 4% or 50% of the home PC market is besides the point... they DO own a very high percentage of the portable media player market, and TiVo should have been working on rolling out support for it the day it hit the streets... and in order to NOT piss off the company you're trying to support, and as a good business practice, you make sure you roll out support for both platforms simultaneously. Why would you cut out ANY of the market, especially when right now you need all the sales you can get?? Mac sales are up, and iPod sales are through the roof, so why WOULDN'T TiVo care about it? They should.



MickeS said:


> When I read your rant, I expected to see that this was posted way back, since most of the stuff you're complaining about has been announced as coming out this year.


But still not available. I have been exploring the HD support thing for a LONG time. At one point I almost made the jump to DirectTV... but that's no choice either. If I did make that jump the iPod argument goes right out the window since the DTV box offers no TTG support at all. $600 for a limited TiVo is no option at all... and now DTV is jumping ship anyway.



nyjklein said:


> For several thousand dollars, yes!
> 
> That's the whole point. HD Digital is completely different than SD analog. While it was relatively easy and inexpensive to produce the hardware needed to process and record an analog TV signal, it would be REALLY expensive and difficult to do the same with the UNCOMPRESSED digital outputs that are fed out of the component or DVI/HDMI connections. All consumer level HD DVRs need access to the compressed digital signal (ATSC for broadcast, QAM for most cable systems and some MPEG2 or MPEG4 for satellite). Other than the broadcast stuff, the only way a DVR can get access to the other compressed streams (often encrypted) is with the cooperation of the providers. CableCard tries to help with this for cable systems but still needs the cable providers to be compliant and provide and support the cablecards. Satellite providers have no similar technology on the horizon (or mandated) so the only way to get at their stuff is for them to effectively "build it".


So I guess it comes down to just praying -- LOL. These are the type of technicals I know less about and the big problem NOW is that a lot of the providers are offering their own psuedo-TiVos. TiVo is going to need to do SOMETHING to stay in the game, but the more I read and hear about, the less it seems likely. If a die-hard like me is going to have no real choice but to look elsewhere, the average consumer is certainly going to look elsewhere.

I just had a conversation a few weeks ago with my Boss... a big IT guy. He wanted me to tell him all what TiVo could do for him. As much as I promo'd the unit hard, explained all the benefits, in the end without HD support he had to choose to go with our local cable company's DVR.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> If a die-hard like me.


You are hardly a die hard. You can use DirecTv tivos and have all the video fidelity you want. You can add a second SA unit and transfer all the stuff you want via TTG to a video iPod or whatever. If you don't want to buy an extra unit, then mod the HD unit and transfer using well known tools. Plus you get HD quality mpegs- better than TTG. If you are concerned about what you do after the HD unit dies, then you can buy the CC HD Tivo. 


TiVoPhish said:


> (I won't switch satellite companies, and have to pay and arm and a leg for a box that I lose features with!).


 Well. You wouldn't lose features with such an approach, and at $289 for an HD Tivo  (AR), it seems to me you are a die hard so long as you are not inconvenienced.

There are already Apple solutions. They all cost a bundle, and they are not able to connect to the Satellite Carrier Networks either, so I don't understand the point. It's not that Tivo dropped the ball- no other vendor can do what you are requesting. When Apple comes out with a unit that folks can buy for $50, then that will be significant. But that really isn't Apple's style, is it? When apple comes out with a video transfer policy that is as liberal as Tivo's, that will be very interesting- especially considering Apple wants to sell video content on iTMS.

Yeah, the cable companies are giving their DVRs away for free in hopes they can kill the Tivo phenomenon. The weakness in their strategy is that they have no lock in on those users. No barrier to exit means that if folks want a real DVR, they can upgrade to a CC Tivo, get all the TTG connectivity and HME features. And the cost of the Tivo unit is negligible when you consider their high resale value.

So your rant really seems a bit more of a whine to me.

If you want to advocate a hypothetical Apple device over existing Tivo solutions, if you want to recite the Tivo Death Watch refrain be my guest, but "die hard" "Tivo junkie"? Please.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> You are hardly a die hard. You can use DirecTv tivos and have all the video fidelity you want. You can add a second SA unit and transfer all the stuff you want via TTG to a video iPod or whatever. If you don't want to buy an extra unit, then mod the HD unit and transfer using well known tools. Plus you get HD quality mpegs- better than TTG. If you are concerned about what you do after the HD unit dies, then you can buy the CC HD Tivo.
> Well. You wouldn't lose features with such an approach, and at $289 for an HD Tivo  (AR), it seems to me you are a die hard so long as you are not inconvenienced.


I said I was a die-hard fan, not a die-hard rich woman with the ambition to hack my TiVo... which of course goes back to my rant about what TiVo is providing to us vs. what we have to do ourselves (with hacks and add-on programs -- did you see the part where I mentioned how long it took to transfer a 1-hour show to my iPod video?) and hacks, additional software and hardware is hardly a good business strategy for the masses.

And $289 isn't the price... That is AFTER a $200 mail-in rebate. So you're asking me to lay out $489 for a 30 hour TiVo box that will never get automatic software updates or be able to do TTG out of the box?... plus whatever it costs me to switch from Dish Network to DirectTV (equipment, setup, etc.).

I'll admit it may in SMALL PART be a convenience issue, but there's a helluva lot more to it than that.



Justin Thyme said:


> There are already Apple solutions. They all cost a bundle, and they are not able to connect to the Satellite Carrier Networks either, so I don't understand the point. It's not that Tivo dropped the ball- no other vendor can do what you are requesting.


But there ARE DVRs that will do the job, just not as well... what sets TiVo apart? Nothing... because it can't do the HD part. So all you get is a set of trade-offs you have to decide upon. OBVIOUSLY up to now TiVo has been more important to me than HD... but that isn't going to be forever because after years of waiting for a solution I still don't have one with TiVo.



Justin Thyme said:


> When Apple comes out with a unit that folks can buy for $50, then that will be significant. But that really isn't Apple's style, is it? When apple comes out with a video transfer policy that is as liberal as Tivo's, that will be very interesting- especially considering Apple wants to sell video content on iTMS.


Apple already came out with an affordable computer solution (not their typical way-too-much money home pc)... I bought two of them this year (one for my daughter, one for my brother). Their video transfer policy so far is pretty liberal since there's stuff for free and stuff for pay... and it's only just begun. When it can connect to my TV and record, we'll see what happens. Ever use iTunes and an iPod? It couldn't be easier... and YES, I can record all my own music into it FOR FREE, play it and get it on my iPod. TiVo couldn't be easier for what IT does... but TiVo could take a marketing lesson from what Apple has done in recent times.



Justin Thyme said:


> Yeah, the cable companies are giving their DVRs away for free in hopes they can kill the Tivo phenomenon.


and slowly succeeding.



Justin Thyme said:


> The weakness in their strategy is that they have no lock in on those users. No barrier to exit means that if folks want a real DVR, they can upgrade to a CC Tivo, get all the TTG connectivity and HME features. And the cost of the Tivo unit is negligible when you consider their high resale value.


Wait one second. First off there is not CC TiVo yet.. just a lot of talk about there being one soon... and we have NO idea what wide-spread availability will be like.... nor even the cost at this point. We don't know if it will have TTG features yet do we (though it's a safe assumption it will, I agree). There is a HUGE exit barrier.... MOST consumers don't want to dismantle their home media center to add a TiVo if their DVR is doing the job already (and they haven't been sufficiently "sold" on why they need a TiVo). I still have relatives who argue their VCR does the job! If they get a box for FREE or very low monthly cost from their cable provider, trust me, they won't spend the money on TiVo unless you can convince them the features are that much better... and that's not an easy sell (and guess what, TiVo isn't doing a great job at selling itself as it is).



Justin Thyme said:


> So your rant really seems a bit more of a whine to me.


Maybe so, but completely justified. How long would you like me to hang my hopes on the fact that TiVo will actually have a solution for me? I don't live in a comcast area. I don't want to lose features or have less recording space. For two years now I've wanted to enjoy HDTV, and even more so in the last year as many more channels are broadcasting in HD. How long is long enough to wait? That's not a question as much as me wondering outloud, because I keep waiting... I really AM holding out for a solution because I LOVE MY TIVO.



Justin Thyme said:


> If you want to advocate a hypothetical Apple device over existing Tivo solutions, if you want to recite the Tivo Death Watch refrain be my guest, but "die hard" "Tivo junkie"? Please.


Wasn't the point of the thread. Someone who replied brought up that Apple wasn't going to make a DVR and pretty much accused me of not reading enough and knowing what I was talking about. Guess what? Apple IS going to explore that market. Whether it's as good as TiVo or offers an HD solution is an unknown, and I'm not an advocate or naysayer about it. Time will tell.

I need not prove to you my TiVo junkie status... I've probably had a box longer than you knew they existed, so PLEASE yourself. Just because I won't jump through hoops to do the job TiVo itself should be doing doesn't mean I don't LOVE my TiVo, and hope they offer a real HD solution and Mac/iPod TTG support -- because there's enough of us that it's worth doing... and they NEED the business.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> IAnd $289 isn't the price... That is AFTER a $200 mail-in rebate. So you're asking me to lay out $489 for a 30 hour TiVo box that will never get automatic software updates or be able to do TTG out of the box?... plus whatever it costs me to switch from Dish Network to DirectTV (equipment, setup, etc.).


It still costs your $289. You just don't want to be inconvenienced with rebates.

You can add a standalone Tivo and get all the TTG connectivity you want to your video ipod.

Done. You could have done this "years ago" when you got your HDTV. So what's the problem?

As for apple?


TiVoPhish said:


> Ever use iTunes and an iPod? It couldn't be easier.


No. I think $1.99 is too much to pay for video I can get for free with my Tivo.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TivoPhish wrote:


> And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales.


and then



> > Originally Posted by MickeS
> > TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.
> 
> 
> This is just wrong thinking. Whether Apply owns 4% or 50% of the home PC market is besides the point... they DO own a very high percentage of the portable media player market, and TiVo should have been working on rolling out support for it the day it hit the streets...


What IS your point exactly? You said that TiVo would have sold more units if they had Mac support, I pointed out that since the Mac market is miniscule, they wouldn't have. Then you counter that by saying that it doesn't matter how many Macs there are (?) but that you were talking about the portable media market.

Why did you even bring up Macs in the first place then, since they have little to do with the portable media market (my iPod works fine with my PC, just like I suspect it is for most people who have an iPod)?

but then you say 


> Why would you cut out ANY of the market, especially when right now you need all the sales you can get?? Mac sales are up, and iPod sales are through the roof, so why WOULDN'T TiVo care about it? They should.


Uh... so DOES it matter how many Macs there are, or doesn't it? You apparently believe it does... and then that it doesn't... and then that it does.

Maybe you should figure out what you believe, and then write something that makes sense.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> It still costs your $289. You just don't want to be inconvenienced with rebates.
> 
> You can add a standalone Tivo and get all the TTG connectivity you want to your video ipod.
> 
> ...


Repeat yourself all you want. Where is this magical TiVo HD unit I'm going to buy that isn't going to limit my features (OUT OF THE BOX) and allow me to use TTG without hacking it? I'm not going to layout $489 for a limited TiVo box with a smaller harddrive and no software updates.

Rebates mean you pay the money upfront and wait 8 weeks to get the money back... HOPEFULLY. Any idea how rebate companies work? They get incentives NOT to approve your rebate, so you jump through hoops with about a 50% chance you'll ever get the money back. It COSTS $489, and than hopefully, you'd get the $200 back. I'd also never buy the box through ebay to count on a rebate. Considering how limited the box is, I also don't think it's worth even the $289. For a box that lacks network support, software updates and TTG, I might as well go to any old DVR at the point and sacrifice TiVo's excellent interface for HD capability (hence the dilema). ... AND soon enough, DirectTV will not be supporting TiVo at all.

Guess what dude? Your video ISN'T free... you pay your cable company or satellite company for it (unless you're gonna tell me you have your TiVo hooked up to an antenna, which I doubt). And there's LOTS of "free" Video to be had with your iPod... free video podcasts for example... any DVD I own can go on my iPod... anything I can record with TiVo can go on my iPod ... but right now it's not so easy or time-efficient. TiVo is already promising iPod support, so why you so anti-apple? They obviously aren't. My gripe is that it's not YET available, and they've been promising Mac computer support for a long time. They are essentially sending customers out the doors into the arms of other companies.

Don't kid yourself... if Apple comes out with a kick-ass DVR with a built-in iPod dock (which is what the rumors point to), lots of iPod owners (and there's LOTS of them) are going to choose THAT over TiVo. And THAT my friend, is bad for TiVo, and all of us.

And if it supports HD, I'll be taking a hard look too. I don't care if it's Apple, Sony or Sam's DVR Company. I can only wait so long while TiVo is stuck in development.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Hey hey. Simmer down. $289 is $289. It's too much trouble for you to fill out forms. I understand.

You didn't explain why you refused to get an SA Tivo, if you are such a tivo junkie, and want to have the TTG features.

You didn't explain why you didn't get HD DirecTivo "years ago" when you got your HDTV, even though HD is such a bit deal to you.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

> What IS your point exactly? You said that TiVo would have sold more units if they had Mac support, I pointed out that since the Mac market is miniscule, they wouldn't have. Then you counter that by saying that it doesn't matter how many Macs there are (?) but that you were talking about the portable media market.


The iPod market is NOT miniscule, and because of the iPods success the Mac home PC market is growing. Ignoring the Apple platform is bad for business, and for making friends at Apple to team up for TiVo/iPod super-support... which would be GREAT for TiVo sales.



> Why did you even bring up Macs in the first place then, since they have little to do with the portable media market (my iPod works fine with my PC, just like I suspect it is for most people who have an iPod)?


Because it's one of those areas where TiVo has been making promises and hasn't yet come through... and it's been a LONG time. There's good reason to develop TTG for the Mac, but it doesn't happen. Now the iPod Video has hit the street and iTunes business is up up up. Where is TiVo, still promising iPod and Apple support. Not smart business.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Hey hey. Simmer down. $289 is $289. It's too much trouble for you to fill out forms. I understand.


Hey Justin, you're being an... cough cough cough.
Laying out $489 is still $489 out of my pocket today. What part of that don't you understand?



Justin Thyme said:


> You didn't explain why you refused to get an SA Tivo, if you are such a tivo junkie, and want to have the TTG features.


You didn't pay attention to the fact I already HAVE a SA TiVO and use TTG features. Doesn't much solve the HD dilema does it??? Certainly doesn't make the process very easy, user friendly or marketable to the masses does it (for say, use with an iPod)? I certainly don't use it as often as I would if it was much less time-consuming and effecient.



Justin Thyme said:


> You didn't explain why you didn't get HD DirecTivo "years ago" when you got your HDTV, even though HD is such a bit deal to you.


Uh yeah, I did explain it... you just weren't listening. Because the box is limited and too much money for what it is. How many times must *I* repeat myself for you to hear it???? You complain that Apple's DVR might be too much money (comparing it to a $50 TiVo) but then want me to lay out $489, spending $289 when I get the rebate money back, for a box that has less features. And you certainly aren't addressing the fact that DirectTV is going to stop supporting TiVo, or the fact that it would cost money for me to switch over to another provider.

What's going to happen with the mpeg-4 stream from DTV starts and lots of shows can't even be viewed through that expensive, limited DTV TiVo box?

My rant is valid. You don't agree. Fine.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

You did not explain why it is so difficult to use DirecTv with an SA Tivo to get your TTG features. Use HD Tivo to get your HD to your set. Simple.

But filling out rebate forms is complex.

I understand.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Ignoring the Apple platform is bad for business


Do you have any shred of evidence of this? Mind you, iPod compatibility has little to do with a Mac version of Tivo Desktop.



> because of the iPods success the Mac home PC market is growing


Yeah, it grew a lot, something like from 3.7% to 4.0% IIRC... hardly numbers that keep TiVo folks up at night worrying about losing money to Mac users who don't buy TiVo because there is no TiVo Desktop.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin, explain this setup you're talking about. You're talking about me having two TiVos connected to one TV... Explain exactly how it will be if I record at HD program and want to use it in TTG (without hacking the box)? Explain how this is all going to work when the mpeg-4 stream starts rendering at least some of my programming through DTV/Tivo unplayable? Please explain why I should buy two TiVos to do the job that one SHOULD do? And why should I invest in equipment that is just about obsolete since DTV is phasing TiVo out... and why I should spend money on a box that lacks features or upgradability? I suppose I'm going to have to hook it back up to a phone line too for programming info? Gotta pay twice for service now too, eh? 

I know, I know, it's easier for you to just accuse me of being an idiot even though you can't seem to understand that laying out $489 still means laying out $489, and rebate companies are in it NOT to approve them. I can fill out forms, but I only do it when I buy equipment that is actually worth buying. Yes, I must just be stupid for thinking TiVo could be making so much more money and be a much more successful company if they played their cards right and actually followed through on their promises. Yup, I guess I'm just an idiot for wanting one TiVo box to do what it should, rather than having to rig up two boxes and hack them to get them to perform. Yeah yeah, I'm just dumb for not going to the lack-of-features DirectTV route at a higher cost.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Rebates I guess are too much for some tivo junkies.

The setup would be:

Two Cable runs to your TV. One goes to the $289 HD Tivo. The other goes to a DirecTv set top box. The output of the set top box goes to the $50 Standalone Tivo, or use one that you (supposedly for the sake of argument) already own. The output of the HDTivo and the SA Tivo go to your TV, or go to a switcher box if your TV can't handle multiple inputs.

Looks like you would be out $289. 

Choose the theoretical Apple DVR, and you will be out much much more than that my friend, and it also is not going to record HDTV at all for anything less than thousands, as noted earlier.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Do you have any shred of evidence of this? Mind you, iPod compatibility has little to do with a Mac version of Tivo Desktop.


Wanna be friends with Apple? Support Apple computers. Period. It's not a hard concept to understand. iPod is made by Apple.



MickeS said:


> Yeah, it grew a lot, something like from 3.7% to 4.0% IIRC... hardly numbers that keep TiVo folks up at night worrying about losing money to Mac users who don't buy TiVo because there is no TiVo Desktop.


Apple Hot Pick for 2006, Winner in 2005

The hottest stocks of 2005

meanwhile...

TiVo Outlook Hurt By Lack Of 2006 Catalyst

No, any smart company wouldn't want a part of THAT. Come on dude, with iPod video hitting the shelves and expected to SOAR, why WOULDN'T TiVo want to time compatibility with both iPod and Apple computer properly?

But now, with Apple (and lots of other companies) making and developing their own DVRs, I'm very afraid for TiVo if they don't get in the game... and quickly.

"As Apple works to make its computers digital multimedia hubs, the book-sized Mac mini introduced in early 2005 is predicted to get features that will make it fit more comfortably in a living room. Add an iPod dock or a TV tuner, for instance, and it could serve as a homes music hub and a TiVo-like digital video recorder."
http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=130000034SP0


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Hey, it's actually $289.37 including the stamp to send in the mail-in rebate. Keep your numbers straight, Justin!

TiVoPhish, tell me how stock prices for Apple would affect TiVo sales? I already told you that I know that Mac sales grew (percentagewise the growth was great... in terms of market share, barely a blip on the radar), and that iPod sales are flourishing. I'm just asking you to point to ANY shred of evidence that this would translate into increased sales of TiVo units if they developed a Mac version of TiVo Desktop. I agree they SHOULD, just to be nice to the existing customer base... but I doubt that it'll increase sales. Please, do tell how you came to the conclusion that TiVo's sales would have been boosted had they had TiVo Desktop for Mac. Those links you posted have zero to do with that.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Rebates I guess are too much for some tivo junkies.
> 
> The setup would be:
> 
> ...


Still didn't answer some of my questions though, did you? You wanna be a smart-ass, but don't actually want to be helpful. You just want to be "right".

How am I getting HD Tivo content to TTG? (without hacks)
Am I paying for service for two TiVo's now?
Am I hooking my expensive low-featured DTV Tivo to the phone line again?
What about the mpeg-4 streams? You think $289 (or $489) for a box is worth it when it's days are numbered?

And for ALL THAT, why should I buy a TiVo HD DVR over leasing one from a satellite or cable company? In your setup I could easily substitute expensive HD DTV TiVo #2 for any HD DVR. The HD TiVo is already not capable of networking, HME or TTG, so I might as well give up season passes and wishlists for something that's not actually obsolete, and will be able to play mpeg-4 streams.

If I wanted such a convoluted setup with two TiVos/DVRs hooked up to one TV, with me paying more service fees, with no ability to network the HD DVR or use TTG with that box, don't you think it would already be set up? You actually think consumers would buy this crap?

That's been my point all along.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Hey, it's actually $289.37 including the stamp to send in the mail-in rebate. Keep your numbers straight, Justin!
> 
> TiVoPhish, tell me how stock prices for Apple would affect TiVo sales? I already told you that I know that Mac sales grew (percentagewise the growth was great... in terms of market share, barely a blip on the radar), and that iPod sales are flourishing. I'm just asking you to point to ANY shred of evidence that this would translate into increased sales of TiVo units if they developed a Mac version of TiVo Desktop. I agree they SHOULD, just to be nice to the existing customer base... but I doubt that it'll increase sales. Please, do tell how you came to the conclusion that TiVo's sales would have been boosted had they had TiVo Desktop for Mac. Those links you posted have zero to do with that.


Consumer confidence.

and more importantly, because APPLE would like it, and maybe APPLE would (or would have, I think that opportunity is probably over now) say "hey, these TiVo guys are on the ball, supporting our products, so lets get them in on the game"... okay, a little optimistic on my part, but it's better than the "f-apple" attitude they've taken instead (or at least appear to). You don't think taking advantage of the popularity of the iPod and playing nice with the company who makes the iPod is good for business?

You don't think my daughter would have liked a TiVo for x-mas if she could easily use her iPod video with it? "Hey Apple, TiVo guys here, we want to put a built-in iPod doc onto our next TiVo units... lets talk".... what is better in this scenario, that they are already supporting Mac or not?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> and more importantly, because APPLE would like it, and maybe APPLE would (or would have, I think that opportunity is probably over now) say "hey, these TiVo guys are on the ball, supporting our products, so lets get them in on the game"... okay, a little optimistic on my part, but it's better than the "f-apple" attitude they've taken instead (or at least appear to).


Every decision Apple has made regarding media availabilty indicates that Apple doesn't give a **** about DVR compatibility (unless maybe it's their own DVR, and it can also be used to buy shows from iTMS). They want to sell shows at $1.99 a pop. They couldn't care less about TiVo's "attitude". Do you base your hypothesis on anything resembling reality?



> You don't think my daughter would have liked a TiVo for x-mas if she could easily use her iPod video with it?


Sure. It also happens to be Apple's nightmare scenario. They want to SELL her the shows for $1.99 a pop from iTMS. They don't care about DVRs.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Now you are being silly. If you want free content to your video iPod and be able to record HD shows, that is how you could do it. And the great thing is that such a capability is least expensive if you use a Tivo. You can do it with an MCE or a Mac, but it will cost you well over a thousand.

If you think it is complex, maybe AV equipment is a little beyond you. Hire a professional if you want, or some kid down the street. They will have no trouble with it.

It would cost you $289 and you would get all the features you were asking for.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

You're so quick to jump on the $1.99 thing -- there's also lots of content available for free. And Quicktime (made by apple) allows you to take ANY video and dump direct output for iPod video... yes, ANY video. No hacks, no wacky setups. You click "export" and then "iPod" and the video is now ready for your iPod video. They are offering movie trailers in iPod video formats for direct downloads. There are video podcasts for free. And this is all just the very beginning since the iPod video is brand new.

How great would it be to have thumbs-up features that dump movie trailers and commercials of interest to iPods easily and quickly? How great would it be to have guide info on your iPod and the ability to make "to-do" lists on the go... when you dock it, it transfers all back to the TiVo. TiVo is already seeing pictures and MP3, and there's been talk about supporting AAC.... how does any of this HURT TiVo as a company???

Why wouldn't TiVo want to support that? With or without Apple's cooperation? Much better WITH, which is why, as a business, you support the company (and their operating system) that develops the darn thing. 

You argue as if there's a downside to them opening their doors to more people. Like I said earlier, whether it's 4% or 50% of people who own macs, why WOULDN'T you want that business? That's 4% or 50% MORE than you currently have... and they are IN the position to NEED it.

But nah, f-apple... who cares that their growth is expected to be continue it's upward climb while we fall. We'll take 6 months to support iPod and another year to offer TTG on Mac... who cares.

How is any of what I'm suggesting BAD for business?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Now you are being silly. If you want TivoToGo, that is how you could do it. If you think it is complex, maybe AV equipment is a little beyond you. Hire a professional if you want, or some kid down the street. They will have no trouble with it.
> 
> It would cost you $289 and you would get all the features you were asking for.


Answer the question(s) Justin. How is my HD content getting to my TTG, and while you're at it explain how it's marketable to any consumer since DTV HD TiVo doesn't offer it.

Tell me all you want it's beyond me. MOST consumers aren't going to hire a professional or be sold on two TiVos to get the job done.

Instead of trying to prove me stupid go ahead and assume I am -- because so are MOST consumers of TiVo... hence the reason they make the interface so darn easy. If you think what you are proposing is marketable, it's your type of thinking that will be the downfall of TiVo.

Really, very sad.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Let me guess.

You are really a Mac junkie.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Let me guess.
> 
> You are really a Mac junkie.


Let me guess, you can't answer the question (as I reply to you from my Windows PC).

I have both because I'm an Art Director... and guess what? It's good business to know and support both platforms.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> Answer the question(s) Justin. How is my HD content getting to my TTG....


You want to get HD content to your video iPod? Why? It only displays 480x480. I'm confused.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Answer the question how I get it through TTG, so I can view it wherever I want.

And how about I recorded it in HD because that's the channel it was on and I didn't KNOW where'd I'd want to watch it, but since it's only through one of my TiVos, I had to pick ahead of time whether it would be HD or not... happened to pick HD... now I want it on-the-go.

There were other questions too.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Gee. If you really want that either pay PVR upgrade for a modded Hughes, spend over a thousand and record it over the air with an MCE. Or wait for the CC HD Tivo and spend far less. Tough choice I know.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Gee. If you really want that either pay PVR upgrade for a modded Hughes, spend over a thousand and record it over the air with an MCE. Or wait for the CC HD Tivo and spend far less. Tough choice I know.


Wow, you really are a .... cough cough

How bout just answering the questions, because what you're babbling about now is way off point.

Do I need to repeat that I'm not in a comcast area, or are you too dense to remember that?


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

/scratches out own eyes after reading thread.

It's really pretty simple, TiVoPhish... you'll never get what you want on Dish, unless they announce major policy changes. The only way you'll get a full-featured TiVo that can record HDTV is with the CableCARD TiVo. Whether your cable company supports that or not is another issue; they should, as the FCC has mandated it, but who knows. Whether you want to switch to cable is also another issue... but if you insist on staying with Dish, you can use their HD-DVR or use a standard-def TiVo with all the other features you want. If you go to DirecTV you can use their TiVo to record in Hi-Def, but without all the extra features you like.

Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!

E

(NOTE: I am referring to manufacturer-supported configurations here. If you are up for hacking/modding, more options become available! )


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

To add to the previous poster's succinct treatment, the reason why TTG is not available on DTivos is because Tivo offered, but DirecTv refused. Complain to them. If enough people tell them they want TTG and continued availability of Tivo boxes, maybe they will listen to their customers. Or maybe their customers will turn to Cable and uses of CC Tivos.


TiVoPhish said:


> Wow, you really are a .... cough cough
> 
> How bout just answering the questions, because what you're babbling about now is way off point.
> 
> Do I need to repeat that I'm not in a comcast area, or are you too dense to remember that?


I'm trying to answer your questions. Calm down.

Your local cable provider's noncompliance with FCC regulations directing ALL cable providers to support cablecard has nothing to do with it. (BTW- it's not just comcast's 25 million users, but all six of the major cable carriers were required to be compliant with cablecard 1.0 requirements and they are).

Perhaps you are unaware that the CC Tivo records HD off the air (ATSC). So you don't need to use it with a cable provider to record HD over the air.

But I am not following the drift of your wandering requirements. It is clear you can do what you asked for, it is just that it is too inconvenient for you. If you want HD recordings on your Apple and don't want to get your hands dirty, you can get a modded box from PTVUpgrade. There is a mac application that does the transfer and you wind up with a jim dandy HD program. No hassles with OTA reception, you can record DirecTv's full HD station lineup.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

etsolow said:


> /scratches out own eyes after reading thread.
> 
> It's really pretty simple, TiVoPhish... you'll never get what you want on Dish, unless they announce major policy changes. The only way you'll get a full-featured TiVo that can record HDTV is with the CableCARD TiVo. Whether your cable company supports that or not is another issue; they should, as the FCC has mandated it, but who knows. Whether you want to switch to cable is also another issue... but if you insist on staying with Dish, you can use their HD-DVR or use a standard-def TiVo with all the other features you want. If you go to DirecTV you can use their TiVo to record in Hi-Def, but without all the extra features you like.


So what you are telling me is it isn't inherently a Dish Network problems since DirectTV can't do it all either (and they are dropping TiVo anyway), and currently there are NO cable solutions at all -- something "coming soon" isn't exactly available right now... and who knows how long before it is available... which means there is NO solution, so it has little to do with whether I choose to stay with Dish or not.



etsolow said:


> Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!


I don't entirely blame TiVo, but it IS at least partially their fault for reasons I've stated already, and probably others. No, they aren't entirely to blame. Cablecard promises something that is yet to be available, so in theory it all sounds very nice, but not if only one company support it, or if the companies that do are always "out of stock" on the cards in favor of their own DVR.



etsolow said:


> (NOTE: I am referring to manufacturer-supported configurations here. If you are up for hacking/modding, more options become available! )


Which doesn't do much for TiVos business model since you can't market hacks to anyone but a very select crowd.

You still haven't answered my questions Justin... and have missed the point entirely. Going around in circles with you has proved useless. If you can't get that hacking TiVo just to get features that should be there to begin with is not marketable to the masses you're missing the boat, and hopefully TiVo is not standing on shore with you. I'm not going to spend $289, $489 or $1089 for a box that is crippled and that requires me to "get my hands dirty" to only have it crap out on me when mpeg-4 is the standard DirectTV begins to roll out. The setup you're suggesting is ridiculous, a waste of money AND not just inconvenient, but excessively cumbersome.

Now, a question for SOMEONE willing to answer it...

How is it possible that every TV manufacturer has managed to make an HD-Ready TV, but TiVo cannot do the same. Really, I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way... explain the technology that is different that makes it so hard for TiVo to output something every brand of HD TV can display.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

TiVoPhish said:


> Now, a question for SOMEONE willing to answer it...
> 
> How is it possible that every TV manufacturer has managed to make an HD-Ready TV, but TiVo cannot do the same. Really, I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way... explain the technology that is different that makes it so hard for TiVo to output something every brand of HD TV can display.


I think there is a little truth in the fact that Tivo was probably waiting (vainly) for CC 2.0 with multiple stream support to be ratified. Unless I missed it (not unreasonable) we still don't know of the CC Tivo is CC v1 or CC v2. A standard like cable card is *madatory* for Tivo to be able to work with video sources, since all HD video sources are digital, and usually encrypted. No standards, no access to the digital stream. That's why you won't see new HD receivers for Dish or D* - they don't have to be compatible, they don't want to pay for Tivo and would rather try to make the money directly off of in-house developed hardware. It's why I'm sticking with Comcast instead of getting D* installed at my new house, and also why if the CC Tivo ships and is good I will be getting my parents off of D* and onto cable. Only then will the satellite guys listen 

I also think Tivo was caught asleep at the wheel by the success of the cable co's DVRs -- Tivo arrogantly assumed that since they had such a vastly superior product, no one would EVER want some inferior piece 'o crap that didn't have the mighty Tivo stamp on it! Ha, most people are convenience and $$ oriented - not a good gamble for Tivo, esp. when as you pointed out until recently I *never* saw stand alone commercials for Tivo touting it's virtues. And with the continual devaluing of the rewards program, don't look for the aggressive prostilization they have been getting in the past either  Also, Tivo had CEO, money management and other problems. Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum. All of that is distracting and can stop a good project (like Mac support).

JT can't answer you on HD because there isn't one right now. Your points about the "HD Solution" not being a solution are perfectly valid and spot on - no TTG or MP4 makes D* a brain-dead choice. Tivo is woefully late with the CC Tivo, I think everyone will pretty much agree on that (well, except for those drunk on kool-aid)

The only thing saving Tivo is most of the cable co DVR's are complete and utter pieces of @%#$. It won't stay that way forever, tho - Moxi actually has a nice set of features and the idea of a central media server with cheap remote end units is a powerful one. If Microsoft ever got MCE stable, I would just go that route and be done with it myself - there are several nice MC extenders out there that will allow me to pull up any content I want on whatever TV I want. I don't see Apple as a Tivo saviour - I think they are rightfully skipping the reliance on Cable/Satillite and going straight for Internet Distribution. I don't want a DVR, I want content, preferably commercial free and high quality. If I can get it for a reasonable price (ITMS isn't there on quality or price yet) then I would happily chuck my Tivo out the window and cancel my cable bill. I'm not saying that Apple couldn't be a factor in the DVR front - Front Row is extendable and there is nothing keeping a company like Elgato from plugging their EyeTV into it.

Anyway, TiVoPhish, other than wanting an HD Tivo for Dish (or DirectTV - blame the FCC, not Tivo) I think your points are perfectly valid. Once the CC Tivo ships (still waiting, guys!) it should finally full-fill all your requests (except for Dish support - nothing Tivo can control).

Don't mind the kool-aid drinkers or the _ad hominem_ attacks - but then again you seem to be handling yourself just fine


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

just to add...

I've been reading a little more about Apple DVRs on the horizon, and there's already hacks available for the Mac that let you turn it into a DVR.... and guess what? Is supports HD. So your statement "I doubt it will support HD" was nothing but an ignorant guess.

There were rumors for a while that Apple and TiVo might partner up, or Apple was interested in buying TiVo -- they were just rumors, but obviously I'm not the only one who thought their collaboration made sense.

Based on looking at Apple's "Front Row", the new iPod Video, the obvious licensing talks Apple is already in with movie studios, record companies and television studios, and the fact that they already have a publicly available SDK that lets you turn your mac into a PVR, seems to me it's not too far off base to guess that a HTPC from them is on the horizon... and one that WILL support HD. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but since it's currently possible to install software that does it, it's at least a wish based in reality.

Am I suggesting everyone run out and buy an Apple? -- not at all, but your constant arguing about how hacking my obsolete expensive DirectTV TiVo box is THE answer, or waiting around for CC TiVo to be released and my Cable Company to comply is well... ridiculous at best.

Let me tell you something... I wouldn't give up my TiVo for a Dish network PVR or for a less functional DirectTV TiVo... but if the interface from Front Row is anything like what Apple plans to offer in a PVR _with_ HD support, I am going to have no choice but to jump ship.

And since I'm ranting...

Ya know, I might have thanked you Justin for forcing me to look a lot of things up today, and finding out that Cablevision (my local cable provider) is "test marketing" a box with TiVo on it... one capable of HDTV. Even their website says so, and that the offer was extended... but guess what happened when I called? They did everything they could not to let me in on the offer, and to push me towards their own DVR, which the sales rep said was "way better than TiVo". So great, they agree to test-market with TiVo to see how people will like it, but then make it really hard to get... you gotta be really pushy. How nice of them.

Then it turns out as I ask many more questions, that he doesn't even know if its an HD-Ready TiVo... because the way the promotion works is they give me an HD DVR cable box and a coupon for a "free" TiVo, which I have to redeem with TiVo themselves... whether I get one with a slot for the cablecard is a mystery until I call them. How WEIRD Is that??? I asked him if he knew and he said yes, they have cable cards for compatible devices, but he had no idea what box TiVo would give me -- he assumed it would be whatever is currently available through their website.

So ya know what, I'll be the guinea pig and see how this all works out. Ultimately, because of their promotion for a year it saves me money on the monthly bills. Next Friday they'll come install my digital cable with 18 HD channels and their own PVR (which they claim so much "better" than TiVo -- but it has no home-network capabilities... "not yet" anyway), but because of their promotion, I'll get another standalone TiVo for free (and I still do have two other non HD TVs in the house) and at a reduced monthly service charge.

Do you see now how incredibly frustrating this all is, and how impossible it is to get the local cable company who not six months ago had a press release partnering them up with TiVo for a "test run" to agree to promo TiVo over their own PVR/DVR?? Do you see why TiVo is in danger here? I don't expect their HD DVR Cable Box to be "so much better" than TiVo, and I still end up with no TTG (or TTG-like) feature... but I'll get to try it out and compare... I know the Dish Network DVR SUCKS ASS (been trying that on one of our non-HD TVs for a year) and I won't be sorry to kiss that one goodbye.

I'll be calling TiVo to see how this whole promotion thing works, and to see which TiVo box I actually will get... somehow, I'm betting it'll be a 40-hour Series 2 without CC slot.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

DocNo said:


> I think it will be sooner than 6 months. Apple has a proven track record with the iPod. The momentum is building.
> 
> 2006 should be an interesting year indeed....





DocNo said:


> ...I still think Apple could give a flip about DVR's - that's not the future. Why try to deal with the hassle of trying to scrape content "off the air", with all the scheduling nightmares and users whining about commercials embedded in the programming when you can just sell the content commercial free on demand with no dependance on screwy networks and fussy cable/satillite companies?
> 
> Yup, the infrastructure isn't there for full resolution HD over the Internet yet, but broadband is gaining each year. And the current iTunes video offerings aren't doing too bad either, and networks seem to be falling over themselves to sign with Apple.
> 
> I know I would rather just download it than deal with scheduling crap for the shows I really like. I would still keep a DVR for "filler" material, but I would love to get all my "A list" stuff direct without commercials already. Not there yet, but give it time....


Why not be honest with everyone Dr. No. Your also are a big fan of the Apple approach of paid video download off the net. I don't have any problem with people advocating their favorite solution, but posing as a "die hard" "Tivo Junkie" who clearly couldn't be bothered to use existing HD solution for the past years to get HD is a little beyond the pale.

As for Apple. $1.99 for downloaded video is ridiculous. This is a solution? This is something to hold our breaths for. Yay! gee! an inexpensive intel based cpu with the grunt to play MP4 downloaded from the net at what? $5.99 a pop for an episode of whatever HD episodes NBC is grinding out? Yay! Here, maybe I should just hand Apple my credit cards and checkbook.

For a few years the Phisher here could have been enjoying recorded HD along with all the free HD video desired on a mac laptop, with all the video they wanted on a really nice portable video player like archos's 16x9 7 inch player. OK, so DirecTv made it somewhat inconvenient by blocking the features on the HD DTivo.

Maybe you two are right. Maybe people can't be botherred with mailing in rebates, who don't care if the solution costs way over a thousand dollars, and if you have to pay $1.99 for low resolution (320x240) content.

Personally, free video with no strings attached sounds a lot better to me.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Thanks for comment Doc... I appreciate a voice of reason in this discussion... (I think we were replying at the same time... hence why it seems like I ignored you... not intended...



DocNo said:


> I think there is a little truth in the fact that Tivo was probably waiting (vainly) for CC 2.0 with multiple stream support to be ratified. Unless I missed it (not unreasonable) we still don't know of the CC Tivo is CC v1 or CC v2. A standard like cable card is *madatory* for Tivo to be able to work with video sources, since all HD video sources are digital, and usually encrypted. No standards, no access to the digital stream. That's why you won't see new HD receivers for Dish or D* - they don't have to be compatible, they don't want to pay for Tivo and would rather try to make the money directly off of in-house developed hardware. It's why I'm sticking with Comcast instead of getting D* installed at my new house, and also why if the CC Tivo ships and is good I will be getting my parents off of D* and onto cable. Only then will the satellite guys listen


Well, now you see in my previous reply, I'm going back to cable... at least for now to be the guinea pig. I'll retain my TiVo and a new free one on my non HD TVs and try out their "better" DVR for a while... but alas, no home-network capabilities on that beast... but we shall see how it goes. With any luck, maybe when the new CC TiVos hit they will be compatible with my cable company's cablecard, which they claim is already available. TiVo is asleep at the wheel here! I'd buy a CC unit today if I could!



DocNo said:


> I also think Tivo was caught asleep at the wheel by the success of the cable co's DVRs -- Tivo arrogantly assumed that since they had such a vastly superior product, no one would EVER want some inferior piece 'o crap that didn't have the mighty Tivo stamp on it! Ha, most people are convenience and $$ oriented - not a good gamble for Tivo, esp. when as you pointed out until recently I *never* saw stand alone commercials for Tivo touting it's virtues.


And the commercials still aren't on enough. I know advertising is expensive, but without getting the word out, without HD support, and with a monthly service fee MOST people don't understand, most people won't make the purchase.



DocNo said:


> And with the continual devaluing of the rewards program, don't look for the aggressive prostilization they have been getting in the past either  Also, Tivo had CEO, money management and other problems. Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum. All of that is distracting and can stop a good project (like Mac support).


It's so sad right?? TiVo has the superior product (but I advise you to check out Mac's "Front Row" software which I guarantee is going to roll out into home media PCs very soon). I have turned so many people onto TiVo over the years, but I have a harder time convincing people now. The killer is always HD support, or the service fee (when they can get a "no-cost" DVR from their provider).



DocNo said:


> JT can't answer you on HD because there isn't one right now. Your points about the "HD Solution" not being a solution are perfectly valid and spot on - no TTG or MP4 makes D* a brain-dead choice. Tivo is woefully late with the CC Tivo, I think everyone will pretty much agree on that (well, except for those drunk on kool-aid)


And again, how sad. Promises of Mac support going on forever (but no delivery), and I remember reading about the CC TiVos what seems like ions ago. All the "current" news says mid to late 2006. I'm afraid the ship is pulling out of port and TiVo may be dead in the water.

Even *I* am now going to end up with a cable-company DVR, and how it plays out from here will be dependent on what TiVo, Apple and my cable company do in the next year. I'll have my TiVo boxes on my non HD TVs, but those TVs aren't going to last long now.



DocNo said:


> The only thing saving Tivo is most of the cable co DVR's are complete and utter pieces of @%#$.


Agree...



DocNo said:


> It won't stay that way forever, tho - Moxi actually has a nice set of features and the idea of a central media server with cheap remote end units is a powerful one. If Microsoft ever got MCE stable, I would just go that route and be done with it myself - there are several nice MC extenders out there that will allow me to pull up any content I want on whatever TV I want. I don't see Apple as a Tivo saviour - I think they are rightfully skipping the reliance on Cable/Satillite and going straight for Internet Distribution. I don't want a DVR, I want content, preferably commercial free and high quality. If I can get it for a reasonable price (ITMS isn't there on quality or price yet) then I would happily chuck my Tivo out the window and cancel my cable bill. I'm not saying that Apple couldn't be a factor in the DVR front - Front Row is extendable and there is nothing keeping a company like Elgato from plugging their EyeTV into it.


We are on the same wavelength Doc... though I do think Apple is gonna get in the DVR game (see my post above). I was impressed at Front Row... TiVo like and iPod like... which will be appealing to the masses... and they certainly have everyone's attention right now.

You're right that these POS DVRs won't stay peices of sh*t... I'm interested to see what my cable company thinks is "better" than TiVo since they salesman was so pumped to tell me how much better it was (while trying to convince me he didn't have to honor THEIR OWN TiVo promotion, LOL).



DocNo said:


> Anyway, TiVoPhish, other than wanting an HD Tivo for Dish (or DirectTV - blame the FCC, not Tivo) I think your points are perfectly valid. Once the CC Tivo ships (still waiting, guys!) it should finally full-fill all your requests (except for Dish support - nothing Tivo can control).
> 
> Don't mind the kool-aid drinkers or the _ad hominem_ attacks - but then again you seem to be handling yourself just fine


Well, looks like as of next week I won't be a Dish customer anymore anyway. I have to say, I'm sad to give it up... haven't had a day's problem with it. But things change. I just HOPE (and pray and hope some more) that in the long run I'll be able to go back to TiVo in my HD equipped bedroom (unless the cablevision DVR lives up to the salesman's hype, LOL). We'll soon find out.


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## piper (Oct 11, 2004)

etsolow said:


> /scratches out own eyes after reading thread.
> 
> Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!


Couldn't a DVR record HDTV using the analogue component cables that go into the TV or even a digital DVI connection if there is one?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Why not be honest with everyone Dr. No. Your also are a big fan of the Apple approach of paid video download off the net.
> 
> $1.99 for downloaded video is ridiculous. For a few years the Phisher here could have been enjoying recorded HD along with all the tivotogo trimmings, but DirecTv made that somewhat inconvenient by blocking the features on the HD DTivo.
> 
> ...


Now I"m just going to say it. You're an ass.

Via iPod/iTunes there's LOTS OF VIDEO FOR FREE too. But you don't want to hear that.

There's no value in an obsolete Hughes DirectTV box, but you don't want to hear that.

The setup you suggested was RIDICULOUS but you don't want to hear that.

Where did you $1000 price come from, cause I ain't paying $1000 for anything, nor ever suggested I would... you just pulled that right out of your ear didn't you.

Give it up Justin. CC TiVos should have been out already. iPod support should have been out already. Mac support should have been out long ago. Apple or Microsoft or Sony or Cablevision or whoever is going to try to do it better, and may succeed. TiVo has catching up to do, and anyone with half a brain can see that.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

piper said:


> Couldn't a DVR record HDTV using the analogue component cables that go into the TV or even a digital DVI connection if there is one?


As I understand it...

The DVR has to be able to output the signal. Current TiVos can't do that.

The reason, as I get it, is each company (cable and satellite) encrypts their signal differently... the only way to decrypt it with these cable cards that are now mandated by the FCC that TiVo says they'll support in future units.

You could use your TiVo but nothing would be shown in HD, nor record in HD.


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## piper (Oct 11, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> Now I"m just going to say it. You're an ass.
> 
> There's LOT OF VIDEO FOR FREE too. But you don't want to hear that.
> 
> ...


The guy comes across as a bit of a fruitcake (it's great when you catch his posts before he edits out the juicy bits) and it's better just to laugh it off than attempt rational debate. In the unlikely event he ever secures paid employment I'm sure he'll calm down but in the meantime you might want back away before you start getting the PMs because he will never, ever, stop sniping at you (learned from experience).


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

You are right. And every major Consumer electronics manufacturer was wrong not to put out a Cablecard DVR out earlier. Whoops. Wrong. Sony put out a single tuner cablecard last spring for $900 or so. Consumer response was somewhat underwhelming.

You love Tivos, and you love HD but for the last few years you could not have been bothered to move to DirecTv and get an HD DTivo. Now you complain it's too late because of DirecTv's future plans. But I can't talk to you about the certainty that your local cable provider (whoever it is we don't know) will have to provide Cablecard support shortly. The have to by FCC requirement.

Even if your local supplier cannot provide HD, the CC HD TIvo will be able to download and play HD content just as easily as this mythical Apple player will do.

Hey. Tivo Junkie. Be happy. Dr. No was right. The momentum is building. But not for Apple. For Tivo.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> You are right. And every major Consumer electronics manufacturer was wrong not to put out a Cablecard DVR out earlier. Whoops. Wrong. Sony put out a single tuner cablecard last spring for $900 or so. Consumer response was somewhat underwhelming.


See, now you're just making me laugh.
You're going to tell me how other DVRs can't succeed when they ARE prepared (and ready with cablecard support), but somehow TiVo is going to catch up next year and they don't have even 1/2 the marketing power of Sony???

AND they have to fight the DVRs people get FOR FREE from their cable/satellite provider? Come on, use your brain... you must have one rattling around in that head of yours.



Justin Thyme said:


> You love Tivos, and you love HD but for the last few years you could not have been bothered to move to DirecTv and get an HD DTivo.


Cause when it first came out it was $1000.00 -- remember how you said that was SO MUCH money just above?

Then I was holding out for a time for TiVo to catch up.

Then I was trying out Dish Network's PVR (hate it!)

And then word came out (quite a while ago now, when their Tivo DVR was still damn expensive) that DirectTV would stop supporting TiVo and eventually mpeg2.

Got it???



Justin Thyme said:


> Now you complain it's too late because of DirecTv's future plans. But I can't talk to you about the certainty that your local cable provider (whoever it is we don't know) will have to provide Cablecard support shortly. The have to by FCC requirement.


I complain because I'm not going to pay $289 or $489 for an obsolete box, to spend money to switch to another satellite provider. But maybe you should read above as what I AM going to do, because you obviously missed a post. Maybe you should read above about how hard cable companies make it to get TiVo, even when it's built right into their own promotion.



Justin Thyme said:


> Even if your local supplier cannot provide HD, the CC HD TIvo will be able to download and play HD content just as easily as this mythical Apple player will do.


The mythical Apple player already does it. Read above. Again.

Read another reply of mine above. My cable provider (name already mentioned) already has a cablecard ready... but guess who doesn't have a box for it yet?? Yeah, that's right, TiVo.



Justin Thyme said:


> Hey. The momentum is building. But not for Apple.


Oh, you are just so sad. Projections for Apple are high. For TiVo, not so much. It's okay to love your TiVo, it's okay to be a TiVo addict, but not at the cost of common sense dude. Come out of the TiVo-recorded clouds for a bit and take a bite out of reality because if you think Apple isn't building momentum you haven't been paying attention.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

piper said:


> The guy comes across as a bit of a fruitcake (it's great when you catch his posts before he edits out the juicy bits) and it's better just to laugh it off than attempt rational debate. In the unlikely event he ever secures paid employment I'm sure he'll calm down but in the meantime you might want back away before you start getting the PMs because he will never, ever, stop sniping at you (learned from experience).


Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth, you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.

I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth, you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.
> 
> I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?


LOL now that's pretty damn funny!!!! 

Considering you obviously can't read, or even understand what you are reading, and have gone out of YOUR way to be antagonistic and insulting, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black! Bah!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Like I said earlier, whether it's 4% or 50% of people who own macs, why WOULDN'T you want that business? That's 4% or 50% MORE than you currently have... and they are IN the position to NEED it.


Functions don't just appear out of nowhere. TiVo has to prioritize their development efforts. You still haven't made a good case why they should have prioritized development of an application that at the very most could be used by 4% of the computer literate population, and that would have to be provided for free at that, AND which only provides peripheral functionality that TiVo barely advertises in the first place, and that TiVo (through no fault of their own) doesn't even provide to a large portion of their existing customer base anyway (DirecTiVo). Wouldn't it make sense to initially focus the efforts on the other 96% of computer users?



> You're so quick to jump on the $1.99 thing -- there's also lots of content available for free.


None of the free iTMS video content has any kind of value other than as a curiosity, or as a marketing tool (previews, one-off shows, podcasts, music videos). Maybe that will change, but I highly doubt it. Like I said, none of Apple's actions so far indicate any willingness to create an easy system for people to get premium content for free.

Maybe you should direct your anger more towards Apple's lack of a DVR than TiVo's lack of Apple supprt.



> And Quicktime (made by apple) allows you to take ANY video and dump direct output for iPod video... yes, ANY video. No hacks, no wacky setups. You click "export" and then "iPod" and the video is now ready for your iPod video.


Sounds similar to the sync function in WMP10 which is used by several brands of portable video players. What's your point? That even Apple realizes that they can't charge people for everything? If so, you're correct.

By the way, I seem to recall that the problem is that Apple is using some kind of proprietary mpeg-2 codec that they won't allow TiVo to use, so TiVo have to write their own. Can't back that claim up though, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was.

I can rip CDs with iTunes too. That doesn't take away from the fact that everything in the iTunes system, including video, is set up to primarily support a pay-per-download model, and that integration of a third-party DVR would undermine this model.



> how does any of this HURT TiVo as a company???


Of course it doesn't hurt them, if they had nothing else on their plate. They're coming out with iPod and PSP support IIRC (announced fairly recently), they've got the HD stuff, CableCard stuff they're working on... I just don't see how it makes sense busineswise to focus limited resources on developing applications for a niche-market (and remember, many Mac users own a PC too!), before they've added other products that will directly affect their sales.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

DocNo said:


> Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum.


Huh? What's your source on that? I don't think that's true at all. I don't have the actual stats, but my impression is that TiVo employees tend to stay employees far longer than average for a high tech company, and the forum folks are proof of that:

Here are the employees at TiVo who have posted on the forum at least once (from http://www.tivofaq.com/index.html?http://www.tivofaq.com/ForumTips.html#emps):

TiVoPony has been at TiVo for eight years, since the founding.
TiVoDataGuy has been at TiVo for over seven years.
I've been at TiVo for nearly seven years.
TiVoStore has been at TiVo for nearly six years.
TiVoJerry has been at TiVo for at least five years, maybe six now.
TiVoJason (talked in IRC chat about HMO, appeared on Weekend Warriors) has been at TiVo for six years.
TiVoShanan has been at TiVo for about three or four years.
TiVoLiz (posted a few times about rebates) has been at TiVo for three years.
TiVoDaniel (also posted about rebates a couple of times) has been at TiVo for two years.

All of the above are still employees.

TiVolutionary/TiVoRichard left for reasons of his own almost three years ago now. He had worked at TiVo for about four years.

TiVoKatya left after three years for reasons of her own. That was also about three or four years ago.

TiVoBill left a few months ago after working here over five years, mostly because of a startup opportunity that saved him having to drive for nearly an hour each way every day.

None of the above three departures fell in the time period you're talking about.

Cite your source, DocNo, because that's an ugly rumor to start.

--S.


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## piper (Oct 11, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth, you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.
> 
> I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?


LOL - I rest my case.

Is this the thread where you cringe makingly accused me of being a liar (plus all the other things sadly edited out of existence)?

The thread where you also attempted to convince me that my own home movies are obviously 'copy protected'?

The thread where you lost the plot so badly you had to edit EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts to remove all the insults and misrepresentations and outright psychotic outbursts?

Also, you need to do a bit more googling on cable download speeds before you drag up comments like the one above before I am forced to rev up the ridicule machine all over again.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

piper and Justin Thyme, maybe you could take your irrelevant fight to the sandbox.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Okey dokey. Sand is fun.


TiVoPhish said:


> See, now you're just making me laugh.
> You're going to tell me how other DVRs can't succeed when they ARE prepared (and ready with cablecard support), but somehow TiVo is going to catch up next year and they don't have even 1/2 the marketing power of Sony???.


 I get it. This is really a discussion about Tivo's business model versus that of Sony, or Apple, or Comcast, and how their model is going to make mincemeat of Tivo's model. Is that the discussion you want to have? Because you are mistaken in your conclusions.

You can't have it both ways. If Tivo was stupid for not coming out with more HD support early, then everyone was.

But Tivo did have an HD solution. I guess you were not enough of an HD or Tivo Junkie to want it enough. Now you don't want to jump for an HD DirecTivo. Fine. Buy an MCE or an Apple Mini. Pay about a thousand bucks.

But neither will allow you to record HD off Dish.

Things sure were getting quiet during the holidays. There was so little excitement like these joyous and well reasoned posts. WHy am I not surprized we have a sudden surge of FUD posters a week before CES?

Let the games begin!


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Functions don't just appear out of nowhere. TiVo has to prioritize their development efforts. You still haven't made a good case why they should have prioritized development of an application that at the very most could be used by 4% of the computer literate population, and that would have to be provided for free at that, AND which only provides peripheral functionality that TiVo barely advertises in the first place, and that TiVo (through no fault of their own) doesn't even provide to a large portion of their existing customer base anyway (DirecTiVo). Wouldn't it make sense to initially focus the efforts on the other 96% of computer users?


With all the times that's gone by, I'd hardly call it a priority... and never said they should have made it a priority... but rolling it out EVENTUALLY would have AT LEAST been nice.... especially when they learned of the iPod video (which chances are, they knew well ahead of the general public).

Considering the buzz Apple has created, I'd want to be ahead of the curve... not behind.



MickeS said:


> None of the free iTMS video content has any kind of value other than as a curiosity, or as a marketing tool (previews, one-off shows, podcasts, music videos). Maybe that will change, but I highly doubt it. Like I said, none of Apple's actions so far indicate any willingness to create an easy system for people to get premium content for free.


Maybe not to you, but I've found quite a few things of value for free. So has my daughter. Putting my own video on there has been a breeze (had that done in the first few hours of getting it home). I also know this is only in it's infancy since it all just started. I expect they'll be a lot more pay and free stuff available as time goes on.



MickeS said:


> Maybe you should direct your anger more towards Apple's lack of a DVR than TiVo's lack of Apple supprt.


Not angry, frustrated... there's a difference.
Read above, Apple got a DVR in the works quite obviously (and available for those willing to explore the SDK realm).

And since this is a TiVo forum, and my rant was about TiVo, why would I rant about Apple. It could easily be Sony or Microsoft I'm talking about instead. But since Apple is the one right now really grabbing on to the media market, doesn't it just make SENSE for TiVo to provide that support? They are GOING TO... it's the fact that they are slow to deliver I have a problem with because it's BAD FOR THEM (which trickles down to being BAD FOR US).



MickeS said:


> Sounds similar to the sync function in WMP10 which is used by several brands of portable video players. What's your point? That even Apple realizes that they can't charge people for everything? If so, you're correct.


Not sure what you're driving at... but complaining about how $1.99 for video is too expensive and not recognizing lots of free content available isn't a fair argument to make.... THAT was my point.



MickeS said:


> By the way, I seem to recall that the problem is that Apple is using some kind of proprietary mpeg-2 codec that they won't allow TiVo to use, so TiVo have to write their own. Can't back that claim up though, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was.


Quicktime will take ANY video and convert it for iPod quickly, painlessly and easy. Isn't it the .tivo format that is proprietary???



MickeS said:


> I can rip DVDs with iTunes too. That doesn't take away from the fact that everything in the iTunes system, including video, is set up to primarily support a pay-per-download model.


And they've been successful at it -- so what's your point? That Apple knows how to make money and TiVo doesn't? It adds VALUE to TiVo to support the VERY popular iPod, so why are you even arguing about this?

How ANYONE here can deny the buzz Apple has created, even if you hate them, is beyond me. Do you want TiVo to stay in business and success the way Apple has, or flounder because you and Justin are die-hard fans that are content to hack but could give a rat's ass about the average consumer??

TiVo was SET UP with the average consumer in mind -- not geeks like you and me and Justin. If geeks were going to make them success, they'd be doing a lot better... but they have NOT supported the average consumer and to deny ANY user, even the lowly 4% of Mac people (and that number is projected to grow) and the however many million iPod users is ridiculous. How can you make a logical argument about doing so?



MickeS said:


> Of course it doesn't hurt them, if they had nothing else on their plate. They're coming out with iPod and PSP support IIRC (announced fairly recently), they've got the HD stuff, CableCard stuff they're working on... I just don't see how it makes sense busineswise to focus limited resources on developing applications for a niche-market (and remember, many Mac users own a PC too!), before they've added other products that will directly affect their sales.


I never said to focus limited resources on developing apps for niche markets. Leave Justin to that since he's ready to have me set up multiple TiVos to one TV and hack them to death. I'm suggesting GOOD BUSINESS which is making iPod and HD Support a huge priority, and iPod support includes making the Apple people happy... not just consumers, but the corporation. Promising support for a year and never delivering isn't a good way to do business for ANY company... and I have no confidence iPod support is coming soon when they promised Mac support so long ago, and HD support what seems like ages ago (and projections are for mid to late 2006).


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## piper (Oct 11, 2004)

MickeS said:


> piper and Justin Thyme, maybe you could take your irrelevant fight to the sandbox.


No thanks, he's not a very friendly (or stable) person - wait till he starts making threats and you'll see what I mean. I'll just drop out of the thread instead.

Talking to him honestly gives me the worrrying "I'm dealing with a nutter" feeling and thank GOD I don't live in the same town as him is all I can say.

Assuming I don't live in the same town as him.


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