# Game of Thrones "Winter Is Coming" 4/17/11 *spoilers*



## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Pretty good. Can't believe they crammed in so much in the first episode. I'm interested to see how people who haven't read the books liked it. Especially the final scene.

Opening credits were great, I loved seeing things like the Godswood come to life. The changes, weren't too bad, a lot of them were basically "can't do 10 minutes of inner monologue to explain things."


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

I liked it, and haven't read the books. I thought the end scene was pretty well foreshawdowed and sets up the conflict for the series quite well. Had a hard time remembering the characters' names, that will come with time I guess


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

w00t!


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Needs more nudity.


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## 6079 Smith W (Oct 2, 2000)

Never read the books, and I'm liking what I've seen so far.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> Had a hard time remembering the characters' names, that will come with time I guess


SO THIS!

I am starting to piece together who is who and their relationships to each other but it is TOUGH.

Without spoilering anything...

Is my assumption that the CURRENT KING reign is under attack from the blonde freaks with their savage army? (Who I assume are descendants of the previous regime) Can someone answer that without giving anything away if this is off point.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> I liked it, and haven't read the books. I thought the end scene was pretty well foreshawdowed and sets up the conflict for the series quite well. Had a hard time remembering the characters' names, that will come with time I guess


I have not read the books, and I enjoyed it.

Something that helped me was having the family trees up on my laptop while I watched. I had the HBO guide up, and was able to look at the different families, and figure out who everyone was.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The opening scenes with the White Walkers was great.

Man, that blonde girl who married the barbarian was smokin'. I want one of those for Christmas.

I kinda knew that Bran was going to fall off the wall. I just didn't think it would be done so callously.

Did anybody else use closed captioning? I tried it because I knew the names and references would be difficult to figure out since I'm unfamiliar with the books. The cc was crap. Whole sentences were either missing or garbled. I gave up after a couple of minutes. The last couple of shows I've watched on HBO have had really crappy closed captioning.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

NatasNJ said:


> SO THIS!
> 
> I am starting to piece together who is who and their relationships to each other but it is TOUGH.
> 
> ...


Your assumption is mostly correct. The current King, Robert, took the throne from the blond freak (Viserys)'s father, King Aerys Targaryen. The blond freaks are in exile across the Narrow sea.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

NatasNJ said:


> SO THIS!
> 
> I am starting to piece together who is who and their relationships to each other but it is TOUGH.
> 
> ...


The current king and Ned Stark (as well as many others) usurped the crown from the blonde freaks father. The blonde freak son is entering his sister in a marriage contract with the savage army's leader so that he can have an army to go reclaim his father's crown. Because of the infodumps, I'll be happy to try to do more of these explanations for people, cause I bet a lot of that can be confusing without a lot of inner monologue.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

One helpful bit of info is that each House has a symbol (sigil?) and that helps keep them straight too. The Starks sigil is the Direwolf, which was mentioned. As the King rode into Winterfell, you saw his flag and sigil, the Stag. The Queen's family are the Lannisters, who have the Lion for their sigil, and so on. Viserys mentioned 'waking the dragon' to his sister, and that is the sigil for their house.

That's why dragon eggs were a good gift from their friend Illyiro.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Here is a link to the Viewer's Guide. No spoilers, but it helped me a lot. 

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Aniketos said:


> The current king and Ned Stark (as well as many others) usurped the crown from the blonde freaks father. The blonde freak son is entering his sister in a marriage contract with the savage army's leader so that he can have an army to go reclaim his father's crown. Because of the infodumps, I'll be happy to try to do more of these explanations for people, cause I bet a lot of that can be confusing without a lot of inner monologue.


The hard part is answering any questions without giving anything away from future episodes, because I wouldn't want to spoil anything. So anything I answer will only really have info from up to the most recent episode.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

billypritchard said:


> The hard part is answering any questions without giving anything away from future episodes, because I wouldn't want to spoil anything. So anything I answer will only really have info from up to the most recent episode.


Agreed, I've had some practice since I've gotten three people into the books in the past few months, obviously it's easier in the books because they get more info so there's less questions and more discussions. But at least with the shows I can say, ok this is the absolute most info they show know, as opposed to the books, when I get a random text from a friend and have to reply back, "ok so where are you in the story right now?"


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Lori said:


> Here is a link to the Viewer's Guide. No spoilers, but it helped me a lot.
> 
> http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/


thanks! this helps a lot


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Oh, and the final scene? Literally sat there with my mouth open for about 30 seconds.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Lori said:


> Oh, and the final scene? Literally sat there with my mouth open for about 30 seconds.


I know! Doggy Style? That's not how it was in the book! 

Seriously, wasn't that awesome? There really wasn't any other scene for the 1st episode to end on. It was perfect.

How cute are those wolf cubs?


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Haven't read the books, and really looking forward to the rest of this. So Glad I kept HBO, was on the fence about cancelling it.


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Lori said:


> Oh, and the final scene? Literally sat there with my mouth open for about 30 seconds.


In the books, Bran Stark, also over heard a conversation between the siblings Jaime & (Queen) Cersei Lannister. It wasnt needed I suppose -but- the incestual relationship is shocking enough.

Wish they would of mentioned all the wolves names.

Introduced the Starks. Rob, Jon Snow (bastard), Sansa & Arya but not lil Rickon Stark.

Loved that King Robert went immediately down to see the memorial of Lyanna Stark (Neds sister) just like in the book.

All in all ... it follows the book quite well. Surprisingly well. I am pleased!

"The things I do for love!"


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

I liked it. But man there was a lot of nudity!


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Incognito said:


> In the books, Bran Stark, also over heard a conversation between the siblings Jaime & (Queen) Cersei Lannister. It wasnt needed I suppose -but- the incestual relationship is shocking enough.
> 
> Wish they would of mentioned all the wolves names.
> 
> ...


Rickon was there-when Bran was practicing Archery and then later when they were gathered for Roberts arrival.


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## Roommate (Apr 23, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> Rickon was there-when Bran was practicing Archery and then later when they were gathered for Roberts arrival.


Yeah. I didn't notice him right away because in the book he is only 3, they made him a few years older for the show.

I was very happy with the episode and how faithful it is to the book (so far). It was easy to follow, but I was nervous it wouldn't be for someone who hasn't read the book. Sounds like those in this thread didn't have too much trouble. I hope this series sticks around!


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Roommate said:


> Yeah. I didn't notice him right away because in the book he is only 3, they made him a few years older for the show.
> 
> I was very happy with the episode and how faithful it is to the book (so far). It was easy to follow, but I was nervous it wouldn't be for someone who hasn't read the book. Sounds like those in this thread didn't have too much trouble. I hope this series sticks around!


Yeah i saw him but didnt ever hear his name mentioned.

I hate Viserys Targaryen already. (again) lol


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

whitson77 said:


> I liked it. But man there was a lot of nudity!


And it was of the all female variety too.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> And it was of the all female variety too.


If they had followed the books, both Ned and Catelyn would have been naked in that scene where they get the letter from her sister, Lysa. With the old guy in the room no less!


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Looks like I will be starting another set of books. I read the first book that "True Blood" was based after season 1 of TB. Went on to read all of the books in the series and have already bought the next book in the series on my Nook since it is due out the first part of May.

I just finished reading "Pillars of the Earth" and "World Without End" after watching the Starz series. Also read all the books in the Dexter series and wonder when a new one will come out.

I downloaded the sample of the first book of this series and will read it over the next day or so. I suspect the only decision I will have to make on it is whether to buy the set for my Nook or buy the paperback set (which is about $14 cheaper than the Nook books).


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## drumorgan (Jan 11, 2003)

It's not just the nudity, but the incestuous perversion that is a little bothersome. Is the author crying out for help?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I laughed when I realized the King was the same guy that played the father in CBS's "Still Standing". Also, all the fake blonde stuff is distracting. Looked even like Lena Headley was wearing a wig. Nice to see her again after the Sarah Conner Chonicles.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

whitson77 said:


> I liked it. But man there was a lot of nudity!


i'm all for nudity in my HBO shows, to each their own


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I was nervous too about others liking the HBO series as much as I LOVE those books. So far, very faithful to the book, but I am so close to them it's hard for me to see if the TV version is really GOOD, or only faithful.

The ages of the children have all been bumped up a bit for the series. IIRC, in the book Arya is seven, Bran is nine and Sansa is 11.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

A friend will be having a viewing party for all of us non HBO users. I am glad it follows the books.


Spoiler



The first few books follow the English War of the Roses almost exactly. The dwarf is Richard III


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I never read, or heard of, the books.
I'm in the minority here as I didn't like it after the opening scene. I was bored most of the time, didn't care about any of the characters, and stopped watching before it ended so I didn't see this final scene many are talking about. And I'm not going back to find out either.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

jamesbobo said:


> I never read, or heard of, the books.
> I'm in the minority here as I didn't like it after the opening scene. I was bored most of the time, didn't care about any of the characters, and stopped watching before it ended so I didn't see this final scene many are talking about. And I'm not going back to find out either.


Not surprised. Like the Wire, they throw you in headfirst into the water and unlike the Wire, spend a lot of time info dumping. In the book, its much slower, but still hard to keep track of all the characters. If you don't find them interesting, then this series isn't going to offer much to you.

I've read several reviews that say this is the "worst" one of the first six, just because of the sheer amount of things thrown at the audience. So I'm happy that they'll keep getting better since I thoroughly enjoyed it. HBO is holding on to the numbers until tomorrow, but the fast look at the numbers aren't all that great.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/04/18/no-game-of-thrones-premiere-ratings-until-tuesday/89782


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

if that was the worst of the series, we are in for quite the treat imo!! looking forward to episode 2.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> I'm interested to see how people who haven't read the books liked it. Especially the final scene.
> 
> Opening credits were great, I loved seeing things like the Godswood come to life.


Never read the books, loved the first episode. I had to pay attention to keep everything straight, but it wasn't *that* confusing or difficult.



cheesesteak said:


> Did anybody else use closed captioning? I tried it because I knew the names and references would be difficult to figure out since I'm unfamiliar with the books. The cc was crap. Whole sentences were either missing or garbled. I gave up after a couple of minutes. The last couple of shows I've watched on HBO have had really crappy closed captioning.


I only watch with closed captions. They were spot-on perfect. You need to talk to your cable company, as the trouble is most likely coming from them.



Lori said:


> Here is a link to the Viewer's Guide. No spoilers, but it helped me a lot.
> 
> http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/


I spent about 10 minutes at the HBO site after watching it last night. Helped a lot, made it even more interesting.



billypritchard said:


> How cute are those wolf cubs?


Without having read anything, it doesn't take a genius to figure out those dire wolf cubs will play a role at some point. Especially the runt?


jamesbobo said:


> I never read, or heard of, the books.
> I'm in the minority here as I didn't like it after the opening scene. I was bored most of the time, didn't care about any of the characters, and stopped watching before it ended so I didn't see this final scene many are talking about. And I'm not going back to find out either.


Wow, you *are* in the minority. Unless this type of show and genre isn't your cup of tea, I thought it was fun. Great scenery, story seems to be interesting, some great casting. I knew the first eps would be exposition heavy--only way to introduce the series (call it the "pilot" syndrome). And it should only get better from here.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jamesbobo said:


> I never read, or heard of, the books.
> I'm in the minority here as I didn't like it after the opening scene. I was bored most of the time, didn't care about any of the characters, and stopped watching before it ended so I didn't see this final scene many are talking about. And I'm not going back to find out either.


I tried to put myself in the mind of someone who has not read the books, trying to see which characters might appear as interesting or sympathetic.

I thought Daenerys may have come off as the most sympathetic character, being obviously mistreated by her brother and forced to marry a gruff older man.

Tyrion also seemed intriguing, given first his whoring, but later his comments to Jon Snow, which seemed to have some wisdom.

And Jon Snow, the bastard who wants to go to the Wall, like his Uncle, seemed like someone whose story might be worth following.

Any idea why none of those seemed interesting to you? Was it hard to follow them, because there were so many other characters? Or were they easy enough to follow, but just boring?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, all the fake blonde stuff is distracting. Looked even like Lena Headley was wearing a wig. Nice to see her again after the Sarah Conner Chonicles.


At first I thought the Queen was the doctor from Sons of Anarchy. Those two could play sisters.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

I've also not read the books (nor hadn't even heard of them before this series was announed), but I liked it. Actually liked it much better than I thought I would. I didn't have any problem keeping track of who was who and it kept my attention. I thought they did a good job of introducing everybody to viewers and their relationships with key lines of dialog. Unlike The Borgias on Showtime which just leaves me... "", for the most part.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I didn't find Lena Headey at all that attractive in "300" or "Sarah Connor Chronicles". But as a blonde in GOTT, she's damn fine looking.


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## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Did anybody else use closed captioning? I tried it because I knew the names and references would be difficult to figure out since I'm unfamiliar with the books. The cc was crap. Whole sentences were either missing or garbled. I gave up after a couple of minutes. The last couple of shows I've watched on HBO have had really crappy closed captioning.


The closed captioning (we have Comcast cable) was ridiculously bad. I chuckled because I figured whoever was typing the captions couldn't understand the words either. We ended up turning them off, they were so useless.

Hearing that *astrohip* didn't have any trouble with them makes me hate Comcast even more than I do already.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

dbranco said:


> The closed captioning (we have Comcast cable) was ridiculously bad. I chuckled because I figured whoever was typing the captions couldn't understand the words either. We ended up turning them off, they were so useless.
> 
> Hearing that *astrohip* didn't have any trouble with them makes me hate Comcast even more than I do already.


I wonder if this is a Comcast/HBO thing because the closed captioning works well on every other non-HBO show and movie I watch. It's not like this show is live. Even if the typist sucks they still had lots of time to fix things.

I didn't know that the queen and her lover were twin brother and sister. Yikes! I'm surprised the Parents Teachers Council hasn't condemned this series yet.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Our CC was ridiculous. Half-sentences, even half-words, chopped and mangled, and much of the text was in odd cursive fonts and with strange background colors (purple rather than black etc.) Looked more like garbage than CC. I didn't need it anyway but still...

I didn't have too much trouble following the plot. The only thing I got confused about, embarrassingly enough, was whose bastard Jon Snow was... I somehow didn't get it at first (although I figured it out soon enough). Do we know who his mother is? All the rest seemed pretty clear.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

madscientist said:


> Our CC was ridiculous. Half-sentences, even half-words, chopped and mangled, and much of the text was in odd cursive fonts and with strange background colors (purple rather than black etc.) Looked more like garbage than CC. I didn't need it anyway but still...
> 
> I didn't have too much trouble following the plot. The only thing I got confused about, embarrassingly enough, was whose bastard Jon Snow was... I somehow didn't get it at first (although I figured it out soon enough). *Do we know who his mother is?* All the rest seemed pretty clear.


Answer based on this episode? No.

Answer based on the book series?


Spoiler



No. There are several theories.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> Answer based on this episode? No.
> 
> Answer based on the book series?
> 
> ...


It's spelled out on the HBO web site that shows a family tree. I highly recommend the site for those having problems figuring out how every one is related in all the families.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I didn't realize they were brother and sister as well.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Barmat said:


> It's spelled out on the HBO web site that shows a family tree. I highly recommend the site for those having problems figuring out how every one is related in all the families.


Book spoilers



Spoiler



Interesting that they went with her. One of the biggest mysteries of the books is who is his mother. In the books, two people are mentioned by many different characters so it's up in the air (Wylla is one of them.) The fan community has come up with at least a third one as well. George R.R Martin has said that we will find out who the mother is by the conclusion of the story, so it's assumed that we don't definitely know who she is. One thing you learn quickly in this series is that you don't believe something until you see it, characters lie or unwittingly spread false rumors. One of the interesting things of the book being POV is watching something happen, then hearing how the events have changed due to rumor embellishment from people that never saw it happen in another POV chapter.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

(book spoilers removed by request)


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Renewed for season 2: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...grossed-4-2-million-on-hbo-sunday-night/89922


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> Renewed for season 2: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...grossed-4-2-million-on-hbo-sunday-night/89922


First, I'm (pleasantly) surprised how strong the numbers were--4.2 million. I had heard some early (and disappointing) results that said something around 2.5 million. Maybe they added all three airings together.

Second, there was no way this isn't renewed. And quickly. HBO wants to keep the viewers, and any doubt about a second season could possibly have led to viewer defections. A quick renewal sends a message that they are in it for the long haul, and so should the viewers.

Plus, just like "Rome", HBO spent a ton of money on this, and a 2nd season amortizes those costs over more episodes. All in all, renewal was a no-brainer.

Still good to hear though!


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I have a hunch that the identity of Jon Snow's mother will be of major importance as the new books are released. Even if the name on the HBO website is correct, we don't know that much about her.

My theory: (major spoiler for those who haven't read the books)



Spoiler



Daenerys will be needing a husband during/after she retakes her kingdom. Most likely it will be a Stark. With Robb no longer around (we think...), Brandon/Rickard are possibilities, but are a bit young for Dany. Jon Snow is a very heroic and sympathetic character thusfar, so he would be perfect. I suspect his mother is of some great lineage and will be a surprise. After all, would Ned EVER sleep with just anyone?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Our CC was ridiculous. Half-sentences, even half-words, chopped and mangled, and much of the text was in odd cursive fonts and with strange background colors (purple rather than black etc.) Looked more like garbage than CC.


That's really odd. For me to have no problems (Comcast Houston), and other Comcast subscribers to have major difficulties.

I did have some problems with Camelot this past Friday (Starz?). About the first 15 minutes, the captions were 15-20 seconds EARLY. I would see the captions, and then attempt to remember the gist when that scene finally played out. Harder than it sounds. I recorded a couple later showings, as sometimes it's the first showing that has CC problems, and later they get cleared up. Nope. Every showing had problems. (I just thought of something, and this may work for y'all with GoT CC problems: I may try to record it on one of the SD sister-channels. Maybe it's only the HD broadcast that has CC problems?)


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I too have had lots of CC probs with Comcast. Some shows are perfect, others are useless. I didn't use it with GOTT.

Those of you who have the garbled CC: Did you use a TiVO? If so, did you try (if possible) the Comcast boxes (DVR or not)?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Daenerys will be needing a husband during/after she retakes her kingdom. Most likely it will be a Stark. With Robb no longer around (we think...), Brandon/Rickard are possibilities, but are a bit young for Dany. Jon Snow is a very heroic and sympathetic character thusfar, so he would be perfect. I suspect his mother is of some great lineage and will be a surprise. After all, would Ned EVER sleep with just anyone?


This isn't really the place, but....



Spoiler



Jon has taken the black. I don't think he would set it aside.

Not to mention


Spoiler



Jon's mother is of great lineage: Lyanna Stark. His father is also of great lineage: Rhaegar Targaryen. This I believe.


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Its always hard to track who's who when they are all in one place. Pretty soon everyone will split-up and head to separate locations. They will all have their own stories to follow. Then it will be a lot easier to track who's who. 

Including, all the new characters we havent met yet.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Lori said:


> Oh, and the final scene? Literally sat there with my mouth open for about 30 seconds.


Just wait.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> This isn't really the place, but....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All good theories, and nobody knows for sure, but:



Spoiler



Jon has already deserted the night's watch. He may not have completely forsaken the black, but these are extraordinary times. And after all, finding out his true lineage would change things.

Also - I don't think we know who Jon's mother is. There has been third party speculation, but it has been left purposely vague. A real mystery. Stay tuned. 



btw, I think this is the proper place for this, as long as we use spoilers.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> First, I'm (pleasantly) surprised how strong the numbers were--4.2 million. I had heard some early (and disappointing) results that said something around 2.5 million. Maybe they added all three airings together.


More info... from TVLine and Michael Ausiello:



> Sundays opener averaged a so-so 2.2 million viewers  or less than half of the 4.8 million that turned out for Boardwalk Empires debut last fall. But when you factor in the 2 million viewers that caught one of the two encore telecasts on Sunday Games cumulative viewer tally jumps to a much healthier 4.2 million. Its also worth noting that three years ago True Blood bowed to a deadly 1.44 million viewers only to evolve into a monster hit for HBO.


Some interesting ratings info, esp the growth in True Blood ratings:
[sorry for the poor C&P formatting]


> Show Date 18-49 Viewers
> 
> Boardwalk Empire S1 Premiere 9/19/2010 2.0 4.81
> Boardwalk Empire S1 Finale 12/5/2010 1.3 3.29
> ...


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

It will be interesting to see how GOTT does in future showings. Besides the sterling reviews, it seems word of mouth is very high.

Don't forget HBO is competing with a couple other current "dungeons and dragons" type genre series on Showtime and Starz. Odd they all come out the same time. The other two have been rather boring or blase. Maybe more will tune in when they hear GOTT is a lot better than the other two.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Why does everyone keep abbreviating it GOTT, isn't it just Game of Thrones?


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Rickvz said:


> Looks like I will be starting another set of books. I read the first book that "True Blood" was based after season 1 of TB. Went on to read all of the books in the series and have already bought the next book in the series on my Nook since it is due out the first part of May.


Careful, if Martin continues at his current trend we'll never see the end of the book series.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> Don't forget HBO is competing with a couple other current "dungeons and dragons" type genre series on Showtime and Starz.


Crap, what am I missing on Showtime?!?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

For those of you who were left speechless at the end of the episode - hang in there. You haven't seen a THING yet. It only gets better from here.

Watching this made me want to reread the books again. I love them so much. You could probably read the entire series over 5 times in the span it takes Martin to finish a single book


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## Roommate (Apr 23, 2003)

mostman said:


> Watching this made me want to reread the books again. I love them so much. You could probably read the entire series over 5 times in the span it takes Martin to finish a single book


I'm actually doing just that... in anticipation of the tv series and the actual, finally announced release date for the next book (July 12th!) I started rereading them. Only about 2/3 of the way through book one but hoping to finish them up just in time for A Dance With Dragons. It's been years since I read them, I'm shocked by how much I forgot. So much going on in these books.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Same with me. The books are so deep and complex it's easy to forget the details and nuances. Which is good - rereading them is almost as nice as reading them the first time.

BTW, I've never re-read any books until Song of Ice and Fire.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Crap, what am I missing on Showtime?!?


http://www.sho.com/site/borgias/home.sho

A broad definition to call this "dungeons and dragons" or "sword and sorcery", but still a period piece with castles/knights and lots of political intrigue and sex.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Off topic - but, wow - I just realized (not sure why I didn't before) that I've been a member here for over 10 years. Wow. Too bad I always post in Now Playing, which seems to not increment your post count


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> http://www.sho.com/site/borgias/home.sho
> 
> A broad definition to call this "dungeons and dragons" or "sword and sorcery", but still a period piece with castles/knights and lots of political intrigue and sex.


I'd say Borgias is Dungeons & Dragons in the same way Law & Order is.

Glad I didn't miss anything!


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd say Borgias is Dungeons & Dragons in the same way Law & Order is.
> 
> Glad I didn't miss anything!


Really? I never watch Law & Order. They have dungeons?

You didn't miss anything. From what I saw of "Borgias" put me to sleep. GOT is way more intriguing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> Really? I never watch Law & Order. They have dungeons?


Well, duh. You think they just kill everybody they arrest? 

And I do watch The Borgias (which I enjoy, although nowhere near as much as Game of Thrones). I just thought from your earlier post that there was a dungeons and dragons type show on Showtime that I was missing. Glad to hear that's not the case.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

hapdrastic said:


> Why does everyone keep abbreviating it GOTT, isn't it just Game of Thrones?


I always abbreviate it AGOT (The book anyways, since the show doesn't have the "A"), don't know where the extra T is coming from.

A minor quibble, Arya's bulleye, especially right after Ned says, "And which one of you were expert marksman at 10?" Well apparently your nine year old daughter is without training  I know though, that they have to shorthand her tomboyness.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Guys, please stop talking about the books in the TV show thread. The spoiler tags don't always work right on mobile devices. Plus it seems like you guys are having a conversation outside of everyone here. Go to the book thread in HH if you want to talk about the book.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Guys, please stop talking about the books in the TV show thread. The spoiler tags don't always work right on mobile devices. Plus it seems like you guys are having a conversation outside of everyone here. Go to the book thread in HH if you want to talk about the book.


Duly noted, works on my iphone, but not everyone has one, I'll edit my comments.

EDIT: Link to a new thread I started for book/tv show talk. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8481594#post8481594


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

astrohip said:


> That's really odd. For me to have no problems (Comcast Houston), and other Comcast subscribers to have major difficulties.





dandrewk said:


> I too have had lots of CC probs with Comcast. Some shows are perfect, others are useless. I didn't use it with GOTT.
> 
> Those of you who have the garbled CC: Did you use a TiVO? If so, did you try (if possible) the Comcast boxes (DVR or not)?


I guess I should have made clear: I have RCN, not Comcast. Most shows are fine with CC but others are a mess, like this. I only use CC for shows I watch on my own since I watch those later after the rest of the family is asleep, so I'm not sure how often this happens. I didn't try the RCN box; it's useless and I have to swap lots of wires etc. to use it. I only have it for the very rare situation where I want RCN VOD and I'm willing to watch in SD


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> A minor quibble, Arya's bulleye, especially right after Ned says, "And which one of you were expert marksman at 10?" Well apparently your nine year old daughter is without training  I know though, that they have to shorthand her tomboyness.


I interpreted that single scene as showing us exactly the type of girl she is, without going through a lot of exposition/character development. The fact that she could do that tells us unequivocally that she's a tomboy and she's obviously spent a lot of time (apparently more or less in secret) in unladylike pursuits.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

HBO renews for a second season. Will this be "A Clash of Kings" or a continuation of "Game of Thrones"?

I'd always assumed these 10 episodes would finish the first book. If season two is COK, then I'd guess they would need more than 10 episodes, as the later books get longer with more "stuff" happening.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

dandrewk said:


> HBO renews for a second season. Will this be "A Clash of Kings" or a continuation of "Game of Thrones"?
> 
> I'd always assumed these 10 episodes would finish the first book. If season two is COK, then I'd guess they would need more than 10 episodes, as the later books get longer with more "stuff" happening.


Still called Game of Thrones, but second season will be a Clash of Kings. Depending on how well it continues to do, they could get more episodes (a must, I know they already would have rather had 12 episodes instead of 10) They've mentioned that they might need to expand Storm of Swords into a much longer season, perhaps two seasons. And that Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons would be merged together to be two seasons, but have the events working with each other instead of parallel since expecting half the cast to sit out a whole season wouldn't work.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

George RR Martin's hope is that Storm of Swords will be two seasons, and Feast and Dance will be recombined and split into three seasons. He thinks that in addition to giving the story enough room to breathe on the screen, it will also give him the time to finish the series ahead of the show. 

Good luck with that, George!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

WTH, Rob? How is anybody supposed to recognize you with that new avatar?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> WTH, Rob? How is anybody supposed to recognize you with that new avatar?


I have a firm policy of changing my avatar every ten years, whether it needs it or not.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a firm policy of changing my avatar every ten years, whether it needs it or not.


At the rate you're going, here's your next one.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Let me start by saying that the wife and I are huge SF/Fantasy readers (as in I have over 2K books in this genre on my bookshelves). But neither of us had read this series.

We watched this, thinking we would get HBO if it was good. At the end, we both had the same reaction. It was OK, but not something either of us cared about enough to continue watching (much less pay for HBO just for this).

I might try the books, but we have been hesitant in the past to start a series when it was not clear the author was ever going to finish it. Although with this resurgence, there is hope now.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

eddyj said:


> Let me start by saying that the wife and I are huge SF/Fantasy readers (as in I have over 2K books in this genre on my bookshelves). But neither of us had read this series.
> 
> We watched this, thinking we would get HBO if it was good. At the end, we both had the same reaction. It was OK, but not something either of us cared about enough to continue watching (much less pay for HBO just for this).
> 
> I might try the books, but we have been hesitant in the past to start a series when it was not clear the author was ever going to finish it. Although with this resurgence, there is hope now.


My one friend is an AVID GoT fan and based on everything he has read about the series on HBO he claims that episodes 3-6 are the best episodes by far. So if you were going to give this series a fair shot I would suggest getting through at least 3-4 episodes. If you don't like it by then surely it isn't your thing.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm a sci-fi fan but hadn't read the book(s) and found the series premier to be pretty good. Now I'm wondering if I should read the first book before I watch the rest of the season.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

SurvivorFan said:


> I'm a sci-fi fan but hadn't read the book(s) and found the series premier to be pretty good. Now I'm wondering if I should read the first book before I watch the rest of the season.


The books are so good. If you are a fan of fantasy, even in passing - you owe it to yourself to read them. I would probably advise you to go ahead and read the first book. Its probably better to have the book (which will be more detailed) spoil the show than the other way around.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mostman said:


> The books are so good. If you are a fan of fantasy, even in passing - you owe it to yourself to read them.


And I think even if you are NOT a fan of fantasy. Because I'm not...I'm more a straight-forward science fiction guy. But I love these books.

(Martin also wrote a couple of magnificent horror novels back in the day... Armageddon Rag and Fevre Dream....that were also not typical of their genre. He tends to have a very fresh take on what can be very stale and worked-over genres.)


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Just bought the book on Kindle based on the recommendation ITT. Hope it's good!


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

madscientist said:


> I guess I should have made clear: I have RCN, not Comcast. Most shows are fine with CC but others are a mess, like this. I only use CC for shows I watch on my own since I watch those later after the rest of the family is asleep, so I'm not sure how often this happens. I didn't try the RCN box; it's useless and I have to swap lots of wires etc. to use it. I only have it for the very rare situation where I want RCN VOD and I'm willing to watch in SD


Looks like it was an RCN/HBO issue. I just checked my recording and yeah, the CC's were really frelled.

Checked my SD RCN cable box (connected to the SD TV in the workout room) and the CC's were better, but not perfect.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

Next book is being released in July. (In time for Worldcon.)


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Guys, please stop talking about the books in the TV show thread. The spoiler tags don't always work right on mobile devices. Plus it seems like you guys are having a conversation outside of everyone here. Go to the book thread in HH if you want to talk about the book.


Previous comments have been removed.

I see where you are coming from, but with a work that has been adapted from a book to a scripted version, talking about how the work was adapted or how the actor's portrayal differs from the source material is talking about the show, not just the book.

But if that discussion is not welcome here, I guess I won't be posting very much.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

sieglinde said:


> Next book is being released in July. (In time for Worldcon.)


Please bear in mind that in the same blog post where GRRM talked about the release date, he said that he hasn't finished yet.

The publisher has already jumped the gun by announcing a release date twice before (the second time resulting in the debacle that is _A Feast for Crows_).

The publisher, may they burn in hell, can announce release dates all they want. I'm not going to get worked up about a new book until I've heard GRRM say that he has turned in a manuscript.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

mostman said:


> The books are so good. If you are a fan of fantasy, even in passing - you owe it to yourself to read them. I would probably advise you to go ahead and read the first book. Its probably better to have the book (which will be more detailed) spoil the show than the other way around.


I'd never heard of this series, but seeing all the buzz here got me to buy the Kindle book last night. Haven't had time to start reading yet.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Regarding the comments about the books - I'm fine with discussion of the differences between the book and the show but I'd prefer not to read discussion about future books and plotlines that will be on the show later this season.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Lori said:


> Oh, and the final scene? Literally sat there with my mouth open for about 30 seconds.


Me, too!!!

I was blown away! I thought this premier was fantastic!
I've not read the books, and hadn't even considered it before - but, now I'm well more than intrigued. Looking forward to the rest of the season. :up:


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

murgatroyd said:


> I see where you are coming from, but with a work that has been adapted from a book to a scripted version, talking about how the work was adapted or how the actor's portrayal differs from the source material is talking about the show, not just the book.


This is an issue that has been addressed by the online TV critics. In general, they seem to be ok with general book talk as it relates to the episode we're discussing. For example, how you pictured a character versus the actor they picked. Or how scene "X" was written in the book, versus the way they portrayed it on screen. But nothing that would be a spoiler from future episodes. If in doubt, spoilerize.

I would think we would be ok with these general guidelines here, too.

BTW, here is Alan & Mo's comments on this subject:



Alan said:


> NOTE: Because I haven't read the books, and because I imagine (unless the show is an utter ratings disaster only appealing to the die-hard GRRM fans) more viewers than not will be in my boat, we're going to take the same approach to discussing this show as we have to "The Walking Dead" and many other adaptations. I don't inherently object to discussion of the books, but I also don't want detailed (or really any) plot discussion. (There are plenty of fansites where you can do that at length.) In my weekly episode reviews, we're not going to discuss anything from the books that takes place after the events depicted in that particular episode (and while I know Benioff and Weiss have moved a few pieces around, we're still going to stick to the general timeline). So you can talk about, say, the direwolf cubs after they appear in the pilot, but don't say anything about what they're going to wind up doing in later episodes until we get to those episodes. Got it?





Maureen said:


>  Please, please don't mention any spoilers about what happens in subsequent episodes. No talking about what happens in the books beyond the story lines we saw here.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

mostman said:


> The books are so good. If you are a fan of fantasy, even in passing - you owe it to yourself to read them. I would probably advise you to go ahead and read the first book. Its probably better to have the book (which will be more detailed) spoil the show than the other way around.


I totally agree. The books were quite exciting to read, so much so that I kept a piece of paper nearby to prevent myself from skipping down to the bottom of the page during intense scenes. That type of experience can never be duplicated watching video. Discovering the plot progression is much more exciting reading the book.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Who are Alan and Mo?


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## ahartman (Dec 28, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Who are Alan and Mo?


Sepinwall and Ryan, respectively (I assume). TV critics.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

mostman said:


> The books are so good. If you are a fan of fantasy, even in passing - you owe it to yourself to read them. I would probably advise you to go ahead and read the first book. Its probably better to have the book (which will be more detailed) spoil the show than the other way around.


I started reading the books and was enjoying myself. The time between books really turned me off though, I don't want to get stuck with another "Wheel of Time" situation. If he ever finishes the story I will start reading again from the beginning.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

murgatroyd said:


> Previous comments have been removed.
> 
> I see where you are coming from, but with a work that has been adapted from a book to a scripted version, talking about how the work was adapted or how the actor's portrayal differs from the source material is talking about the show, not just the book.
> 
> But if that discussion is not welcome here, I guess I won't be posting very much.


I have no problem with that Jan. My problem was all the people talking about future events that happen in the book, but putting them in spoiler tags. I understand that's what the spoiler tag is for, but whole conversations were taking place and distracting from the actual talk about the episode.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Demandred said:


> Regarding the comments about the books - I'm fine with discussion of the differences between the book and the show but I'd prefer not to read discussion about future books and plotlines that will be on the show later this season.


Ditto


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

madscientist said:


> I interpreted that single scene as showing us exactly the type of girl she is, without going through a lot of exposition/character development. The fact that she could do that tells us unequivocally that she's a tomboy and she's obviously spent a lot of time (apparently more or less in secret) in unladylike pursuits.


Between the scene with the arrow and the scene when the king arrived when she was running around with a helmet on, I got that tomboy vibe.

Potential spoiler regarding info from IMBD:


Spoiler



The kid who plays Bran is listed as appearing in 9 episodes, more than anyone else. Isn't he the kid who got pushed from the tower window at teh end of this episode?


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## firerose818 (Jul 21, 2003)

Fleegle said:


> Between the scene with the arrow and the scene when the king arrived when she was running around with a helmet on, I got that tomboy vibe.
> 
> Potential spoiler regarding info from IMBD:
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yes, that is the same kid.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I have no problem with that Jan. My problem was all the people talking about future events that happen in the book, but putting them in spoiler tags. I understand that's what the spoiler tag is for, but whole conversations were taking place and distracting from the actual talk about the episode.


Oh, sure, but if I talk about an event in the book which is concurrent with the episode thread I'm in, but they've changed something, then how do I discuss that without spoiling the books for someone if I can't use spoiler tags?

The logical conclusion is, we'll have to have two threads for every episode, one for the people who have only seen the show which talks only about the show, and one which talks about both book and show, for those who have read the books and are watching the show, or have done one form or the other and don't care if the other form is spoiled.

It's awkward. Sucks that the spoiler tags don't work reliably on mobile devices.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

pmyers said:


> I didn't realize they were brother and sister as well.


My co-worker and I watched it through our lunch hour. He was VERY bored and I was actually quite interested.

He figured out that they were siblings and I had no idea. LOL


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

murgatroyd said:


> Oh, sure, but if I talk about an event in the book which is concurrent with the episode thread I'm in, but they've changed something, then how do I discuss that without spoiling the books for someone if I can't use spoiler tags?
> 
> The logical conclusion is, we'll have to have two threads for every episode, one for the people who have only seen the show which talks only about the show, and one which talks about both book and show, for those who have read the books and are watching the show, or have done one form or the other and don't care if the other form is spoiled.
> 
> It's awkward. Sucks that the spoiler tags don't work reliably on mobile devices.


I tried making a happy hour one for book/show and had one other person come in and make a post. So I guess that didn't garner enough interest.


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

I would recommend re-watching the episode ... they're are things said and shown that I missed from whether a sneeze, dog distraction, or people. 

Even better second time around.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

Downloaded the book yesterday. In for a penny, in for a pound.


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## supham (Jan 15, 2003)

Does anyone know far into the books the first series goes? Will it be one series per book? I'm thinking of starting the books but I do not want the series to outpace my reading...

Or is this just a bad idea.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm guessing I'm in the minority here due to my overall position on the book+show. I thought the first book was mediocre at best - definitely overrated. It just was not that enthralling or interesting. I am a fan of the genre in general and found this to be just another random fantasy novel. I never bothered with the subsequent novels. The pacing was off in large sections of the novel, and the writing style was fairly flat. Part of it may be that I had just finished with a Gene Wolfe series and no one really holds a candle to Wolfe, but I don't think that entirely explains my reaction. I've been looking forward to the show nonetheless because a show that closely followed this middling fantasy novel would still be a lot better than most of what we have ever seen in the fantasy genre on tv or in movies.

I thought the first episode of the show was very good. The cinematography and sets were breathtaking. Many characters who were boring in the novel felt more vibrant in the show. One thing they did well is handling the romance novel-esque porn scenes that are prevalent in the novel and in the fantasy genre in general. They did not seem as prolonged or celebratory as they felt in the novel at times when such was not appropriate for the tone.

I thought they did an excellent job of using editing to give clues about how the stories were intertwined. My wife has never read the novel and was able to follow the story. And she liked it quite a bit as well.

Overall I was very impressed with the show.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The first season is the first book. They may break up future books into multiple seasons...the books get pretty long as the series progresses.

George RR Martin's hope is that Book 3 will be two seasons, and that Books 4 & 5 (which were original one book) would be recombined, and then split into three seasons.

I think it's better to spoil the series by reading the books than to spoil the books by watching the series. The books are much richer, deeper, and more complicated.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I liked the first episode enough to want to read the book, or listen to the audiobook. I have some Audible credits that have gone unused or awhile, so I used one for A Game of Thrones last night and started it on the way to work. So far, the writing is a little plodding, but I'm only about a half hour into a 34 hour audiobook. Exposition can be bard to get through at times. 

I think having a little character knowledge from the first episode of the series is helping a lot at this point. 

This frost season is what, 10 episodes? Have they announced the number of episodes for Season 2?


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Fleegle said:


> I liked the first episode enough to want to read the book, or listen to the audiobook. I have some Audible credits that have gone unused or awhile, so I used one for A Game of Thrones last night and started it on the way to work. So far, the writing is a little plodding, but I'm only about a half hour into a 34 hour audiobook. Exposition can be bard to get through at times.


Ive read these books a few times and when I heard about Game Thrones on HBO - I decided to listen to the audiobooks instead. Roy Dotrice, who coincidently plays Grand Maester Pycelle in the TV show, does a great job reading the audio books.

He does not read for Feast of Crows (a lot of people hope he will) but John Lee or Ted Stoddard have. (i like Lee)


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Incognito said:


> Roy Dotrice, who coincidently plays Grand Maester Pycelle in the TV show, does a great job reading the audio books.


He actually had to drop out of that role for health reasons. Normally, I prefer my audiobooks to have different actors play different roles, as opposed to one reader doing voices, but I think he does the best job of it, although listening to the sex scenes with him doing both voices was cringe worthy. (I blame Martin for 80% of it though, since he writes sex scenes like a virgin writing fan fiction)


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Aniketos said:


> He actually had to drop out of that role for health reasons. )


Oh I didn't know that. Too bad.



Aniketos said:


> Normally, I prefer my audiobooks to have different actors play different roles, as opposed to one reader doing voices, but I think he does the best job of it, although listening to the sex scenes with him doing both voices was cringe worthy. (I blame Martin for 80% of it though, since he writes sex scenes like a virgin writing fan fiction)


Hilarious! I agree with Dotrice reading those parts. -cringe-
I liked the way The Wheel of Time book are handled - with Kate Reading doing the female POV, Michael Kramer reading the male POV.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Dotrice and Lee are two of my favorite audiobook readers. I'm listening to The Dreaming Void right now, with Lee reading.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I had no idea what this show was, but when I saw the thread go to 4 pages, I checked it out. Also had no idea there were books. It was a little confusing, although I thought it was made clear that the cute guy was the Queen's brother. I don't have many names, but it's starting to make sense. Overall, it was pretty good.

In the beginning when they saw the white walkers (?) I was getting a zombie vibe, but then after that it was all just royal intrigue. Are we getting back to some supernatural stuff?



murgatroyd said:


> It's awkward. Sucks that the spoiler tags don't work reliably on mobile devices.


How big of a problem is this? Couldn't people just stay away from this particular thread on their mobile? I like some inside knowledge from people who have read the books.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> In the beginning when they saw the white walkers (?) I was getting a zombie vibe, but then after that it was all just royal intrigue. Are we getting back to some supernatural stuff?





Spoiler



Hint: The subtitle of series and the slogan of House Stark: "Winter is coming."


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Hint: The subtitle of series and the slogan of House Stark: "Winter is coming."


Having read the series a couple times, I have to say that your hint doesn't in any way actually answer the question.



Spoiler



Winter comes every couple decades. The white walkers, not quite so often.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Having read the series a couple times, I have to say that your hint doesn't in any way actually answer the question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



No, winter does not come every couple of decades. The seasons are highly irregular, the only pattern being that a long summer portends a long winter. The story takes place near the end of an exceptionally long summer.

Thus, "winter is coming" is ominous. The white walkers cannot exist in a warm climate, so a long, hard winter favors them. Even more ominous is their sudden reappearance after centuries.

"Song of Ice and Fire" - Ice (white walkers) and the only thing that can "kill" them - fire (dragons). I think we see the importance of Dany exists beyond whatever ancestral rights to the throne may be.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

eddyj said:


> Let me start by saying that the wife and I are huge SF/Fantasy readers (as in I have over 2K books in this genre on my bookshelves). But neither of us had read this series.
> 
> We watched this, thinking we would get HBO if it was good. At the end, we both had the same reaction. It was OK, but not something either of us cared about enough to continue watching (much less pay for HBO just for this).
> 
> I might try the books, but we have been hesitant in the past to start a series when it was not clear the author was ever going to finish it. Although with this resurgence, there is hope now.


Your first paragraph describes me exactly. While my subscription to HBO is not at risk one way or the other the "let's see how many people we can eviscerate" sub-genre isn't exactly my cup of tea. I almost stopped watching before the end but there was nothing that pulled me away from watching. I'll at least give the second episode a chance.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I just watched the first episode with my husband and we both really enjoyed it. We had never read the books. I kept pausing it and saying things like, "So, okay, they are brother and sister and she is married to the King." It helped to stop and just go over stuff. Some things were confusing because we were trying to figure them out without enough information. For example, when the red-haired wife went to Ned with the note about the King's Hand dying, he asked how her sister was and we got the impression that her sister was the queen. It took a while to figure out that her sister was the widow of the dead guy...well, until they said it explicity. Also, when the King arrived we thought that he might be Ned's brother. That was clarified by the conversation in the tomb when discussing the sister and joining their families by marrying the children.

We were also very confused by the dire wolf cub adoption scene. One guy said that there are 5 cubs--one for each (enter last name here) child. At that point my husband said, so the two girls must be their sisters. But then there was another cub...the runty one. I thought maybe one brother was going to get two cubs and that sort of ruined the argument of 5 cubs, 5 children. It was only in the scene with the dwarf that the one boy being a bastard was made clear.

Who killed Ned's sister...the one that the King loved? They mentioned a family name, and I think it was the blonde people, but it might have been the barbarian clan.

Anyway, I really liked it, but I like loooong stories with lots of complicated characters. I think the show looks great and don't mind at all a lot of steamy sex mixed in.

Oh, and the young boy isn't actually going to be dead is he? That would be really sad. Maybe he somehow broke his fall?


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Tracy said:


> Who killed Ned's sister...the one that the King loved? They mentioned a family name, and I think it was the blonde people, but it might have been the barbarian clan.


Lyanna died of natural causes. At least, that's the story so far. She was Robert's fiance.

But then, Jon Arryn (the dead "Hand") also supposedly died of natural causes.
Or not.



Tracy said:


> Anyway, I really liked it, but I like loooong stories with lots of complicated characters. I think the show looks great and don't mind at all a lot of steamy sex mixed in.


You'd love the books. They go much deeper. All are told in 3rd person limited, with the PoV switching among several characters with new chapters. It gives a unique insight into the characters motivations and nuances. Martin is a gifted author and gives his characters very unique voices. Even the "evil" ones gain a bit of sympathy.



Tracy said:


> Oh, and the young boy isn't actually going to be dead is he? That would be really sad. Maybe he somehow broke his fall?


Stay tuned.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Tracy said:


> We were also very confused by the dire wolf cub adoption scene. One guy said that there are 5 cubs--one for each (enter last name here) child. At that point my husband said, so the two girls must be their sisters. But then there was another cub...the runty one. I thought maybe one brother was going to get two cubs and that sort of ruined the argument of 5 cubs, 5 children. It was only in the scene with the dwarf that the one boy being a bastard was made clear.


There are 5 Stark children (legitimate), plus one bastard, Jon Snow. There were 5 normal cubs, and then Jon found the albino cub, so a total of 6 cubs.

The five Stark children are Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya.

http://sweeteyesluthien.deviantart.com/art/ASoIaF-Direwolves-91482939


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> No, winter does not come every couple of decades. The seasons are highly irregular, the only pattern being that a long summer portends a long winter. The story takes place near the end of an exceptionally long summer.





Spoiler



Right, and that exceptionally long summer was only about 9 years. So my "every couple decades" was actually an overestimation.

The stark motto of "winter is coming" is a reminder that every summer, even exceptionally long ones come to an end.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> Lyanna died of natural causes. At least, that's the story so far. She was Robert's fiance.


Really? That is so not the impression I got from the show. There was the scene at Lyanna's tomb. The King (Robert?) said something like, "She should be with me!" and then "I kill him every night in my dreams." And then Ned said something like, "The (insert family name here)s are all gone now" and then the King said, "Not all of them...." and then we go to a scene with the blonde people.

It really sounded like some guy had killed or caused Lyanna's death and the King wanted revenge.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> You'd love the books. They go much deeper. All are told in 3rd person limited, with the PoV switching among several characters with new chapters. It gives a unique insight into the characters motivations and nuances. Martin is a gifted author and gives his characters very unique voices. Even the "evil" ones gain a bit of sympathy.


I think this will be my summer reading. Although maybe it would be better to wait until the show is over and then start. Hmmm. 10 episodes in this season? That would have it be pretty much over by the time my main reading vacation starts in mid June. I wonder how much I can get through in three weeks by the lake.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Tracy said:


> Really? That is so not the impression I got from the show. There was the scene at Lyanna's tomb. The King (Robert?) said something like, "She should be with me!" and then "I kill him every night in my dreams." And then Ned said something like, "The (insert family name here)s are all gone now" and then the King said, "Not all of them...." and then we go to a scene with the blonde people.
> 
> It really sounded like some guy had killed or caused Lyanna's death and the King wanted revenge.


He was referring to the Targaryens, the former ruling party that Ned mistakenly thought had been extinguished during Robert's rebellion. Specifically, mad King Aerys, the father of Viserys and Daenerys.

It's never really revealed how Lyanna died, but Robert blamed House Targaryen. The rebellion was precipitated when Aerys' son and heir apparent, Rhaegar, kidnapped Lyanna to prevent her from marrying Robert. Lyanna's brother Brandon (Ned's older brother and heir to lordship of Winterfell) then went to King's Landing and demanded Rhaegar to come out so he could duel him. Aery's then had Brandon arrested for treason and demanded that Brandon's father, Lord Rickard, come to King's Landing for a trial by duel. Instead, he had Rickard, Brandon and most of his best men killed.

Ned and Robert were still with Jon Arryn (the now-deceased Hand) in his fortress at the Vale. When Aery's demanded he send them to King's Landing to be executed, he instead rose up in rebellion. After the rebellion, Ned rode to Dorne (another of the seven kingdoms) to rescue Lyanna. But too late, as she was already dying from unknown causes. Robert blamed Rhaegar for her death.

Get all that? 

An excellent Wiki site for all Ice and Fire: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Tracy said:


> I think this will be my summer reading. Although maybe it would be better to wait until the show is over and then start. Hmmm. 10 episodes in this season? That would have it be pretty much over by the time my main reading vacation starts in mid June. I wonder how much I can get through in three weeks by the lake.


Depends on how fast you can read. You won't want to put them down, and Books 2 and 3 are more fast paced with numerous twists and turns.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> Get all that?
> 
> An excellent Wiki site for all Ice and Fire: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page


Got it! Kind of. Thanks for taking the time to explain things. I will check out the wiki.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So all this stuff--Robert becoming king through this rebellion--happened before the show starts? Is this a first book that they are skipping over, or do they just flash back to the past a lot? Thanks for the links. It's all making more sense now. I guess I'm in for the duration--I'm taking notes. (Yes, I'm old and my memory's shot)


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> So all this stuff--Robert becoming king through this rebellion--happened before the show starts? Is this a first book that they are skipping over, or do they just flash back to the past a lot? Thanks for the links. It's all making more sense now. I guess I'm in for the duration--I'm taking notes. (Yes, I'm old and my memory's shot)


It happened 15 years before the first book in the books. Id say 18 in the show (Robb is consummated right before Ned goes off to war, and he comes back from the war with Jon so the aging of the children affect the timeline). There are many characters that are referenced in the books that have been long dead because of the war and events leading up to the war. Especially the Targaryens.

Edit: I recommend a website www.towerofthehand.com, you can set a "scope" EG read a clash of kings have seen the first episode and it will hide info you aren't supposed to know about people and places. Not everything has scope (specifically footnotes comments and such) but they warn you if the page doesn't have it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Is this a first book that they are skipping over, or do they just flash back to the past a lot?


They don't flash back at all, they just talk about the past.

That's one thing I like about the series...the universe doesn't start on Page One; their world has a rich past that is as important to their present as our past is to our present.

And Martin is good at making the talk about the past natural...i.e., they do it when it comes up, not because the author wants to dump some exposition on us.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I rewatched the first ep with all my new info and it made a lot more sense. A couple questions. Is the wall something people live behind or on? Is it just like a fortress manned by warriors or a whole kingdom?

Also I didn't see much about the really nasty warrior people (the Dothraki ?) who the evil Targaryen guy married his sister to. What kingdom are they or are they just soldiers for hire?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I rewatched the first ep with all my new info and it made a lot more sense. A couple questions. Is the wall something people live behind or on? Is it just like a fortress manned by warriors or a whole kingdom?
> 
> Also I didn't see much about the really nasty warrior people (the Dothraki ?) who the evil Targaryen guy married his sister to. What kingdom are they or are they just soldiers for hire?


The Wall is a wall, with several castles built into it. It is defended by the Nights Watch. Hundreds of years ago, it was far more populated, but their numbers have dwindled and the amount of upkeep has suffered. Really when we refer to the wall, we refer to Castle Black, as it's the only castle we get a pov from.

The dothraki are tribal nomadic warriors, think Mongols. They are not part of a kingdom. They live across the narrow sea, along with the free cities (think Italian city states.) Westeros, the continent is one kingdom, but used to be seven kingdoms (before the Targaryens conquered the kingdoms hundreds of years ago) and sometimes it is still refered to as such (Europe)


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> He was referring to the Targaryens, the former ruling party that Ned mistakenly thought had been extinguished during Robert's rebellion. Specifically, mad King Aerys, the father of Viserys and Daenerys.
> 
> [much snipped]


Your post goes way beyond the bounds of what should be outside spoiler tags, since none of what I snipped was covered in the show.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Your post goes way beyond the bounds of what should be outside spoiler tags, since none of what I snipped was covered in the show.


Perhaps you should read the title of this thread more carefully. And besides, the post was all back story.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> Perhaps you should read the title of this thread more carefully. And besides, the post was all back story.


I understand the title of this thread. I do not think that you do.

This thread is for the episode of the tv show "Winter Is Coming" which aired on 4/17/11, and spoilers for *that episode* may be in this thread without spoiler tags. Any discussion of plot that has not been covered in *that episode* or previous episodes of the show (of which there are none, since this is the first episode) should be in spoiler tags. This would include back story from the book, that has not yet been covered in the TV show.

The "*spoilers*" in the thread title does not indicate that it may contain untagged spoilers from the book or other sources.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> I understand the title of this thread. I do not think that you do.
> 
> This thread is for the episode of the tv show "Winter Is Coming" which aired on 4/17/11, and spoilers for *that episode* may be in this thread without spoiler tags. Any discussion of plot that has not been covered in *that episode* or previous episodes of the show (of which there are none, since this is the first episode) should be in spoiler tags. This would include back story from the book, that has not yet been covered in the TV show.
> 
> The "*spoilers*" in the thread title does not indicate that it may contain untagged spoilers from the book or other sources.


There will never be a more appropriate place for this:


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Maybe this will help:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=271608



> Official Episode Threads:
> When starting a discussion about a specific show episode, please put the air date and name of the program (and title if you know it) in the subject line. (ie: Lost, "Man of Science, Man of Faith," 11/16.)
> 
> This will be the "official" thread for that week, and anything within that thread may contain spoilers for that show. It is also okay to mention a plot point from any previous episode. If you are not caught up on this show, and do not wish to read spoilers, do not open this thread.
> ...


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

I think the problem with spoilers is that people have read all the books. That is why I feel OK reading this though I don't get HBO and haven't watched the show. I am just not posting any details myself.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Sorry....it was my fault. I shouldn't have been asking questions that were clearly beyond the bounds of the current episode. I will just look up the info elsewhere.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

There's a new app for the series/books. http://appshopper.com/reference/game-of-thrones-companion 99 cents, for iPod Touch and iPad.

"Simply browse through characters, houses, maps, and more to refresh your memory before reading "A Dance with Dragons" or watching the HBO series (April 17, 2011). With all of the characters arranged in a Contacts-like interface, you can explore the most loved and most obscure characters in the realm. Dig deeper and read about the major houses, their histories and castles. Pinch-and-zoom your way across Westoros from the Winterfell to King's Landing to Dorne in the South."

One cool feature is a spoilers slider.

"Next update will allow you to adjust spoilers by where you are in the HBO or book series"

All of this is obviously available online but the app is nice to have and worth 99 cents IMHO.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

dandrewk said:


> There will never be a more appropriate place for this:


There is a thread in Happy Hour that is a more appropriate place to discuss spoilers from the book without spoiler tags.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

hummingbird_206 said:


> There is a thread in Happy Hour that is a more appropriate place to discuss spoilers from the book without spoiler tags.


Yes I know.

But filling in back story that is either not covered in the book and most likely will never be enumerated in the HBO series is not what I would call a "spoiler", especially in a thread that is titled "spoilers".

Most of the info in my post was gleaned from various websites.

That's the last I will say on this off topic subject.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm late to the party but I just watched this episode yesterday. It was fantastic. I'm hooked. Better than Camelot or the Borgias. 

I have not read the books. 

I thought it was clear that the queen and the guy (I'm bad with names) were brother and sister (I think they called each other that!), it wasn't clear that they were twins. I also thought Ned's sister in law was the queen, not Ayres' wife. I also thought it was strange that Ned wasn't allowed to see the note (he certainly could have read it THEN thrown it in the fire!).

the imp was very sympathetic. I suspect he will turn out to be evil, but so far, that's not the case.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Enjoyed the first episode. Wondering why there isn't a thread for episode 2 yet. Also, I'm wondering where this thread in HH is that talks about the books. I looked but did not find.

I tried to read the first book but wasn't able to get into it. Then I tried the audiobook version (free trial on Audible) and couldn't stand the person doing the reading. Despite the fact that I have probably 5000 pages of books on my kindle, I am considering getting Game of Thrones on it as it is much easier to carry around a kindle than a four inch thick dead tree version.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> Enjoyed the first episode. Wondering why there isn't a thread for episode 2 yet. Also, I'm wondering where this thread in HH is that talks about the books. I looked but did not find.
> 
> I tried to read the first book but wasn't able to get into it. Then I tried the audiobook version (free trial on Audible) and couldn't stand the person doing the reading. Despite the fact that I have probably 5000 pages of books on my kindle, I am considering getting Game of Thrones on it as it is much easier to carry around a kindle than a four inch thick dead tree version.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468391 It hasn't gotten a lot of views, so it tends to fall off quickly. Also, if you haven't read the books, I wouldn't recommend going there. If it picks up steam, it's assuming you've read all four of the books.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ten years ago today...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I sat down to watch some of the Conan O'Brien special that is on HBO Max with interviews with the cast. I think it was filmed just after the show ended, and was only available on the full series boxed set previously. It's really interest. And wow, has Sophie Turner grown up to be a beauty. They showed how they looked at the beginning of the series and how they looked at the end. very stark (pun intended) contrast. They also brought back the actors who played Robert and Ned which is fun (Sean Bean plays the villain in Snowpiercer, so it was interesting remembering him as a "good" guy.) Will have to finish this at some point this week.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

hapdrastic said:


> Careful, if Martin continues at his current trend we'll never see the end of the book series.


Ain't that the truth!


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