# YATT (Yet Another Terrabyte Tivo)



## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Here is my take on getting maximum capacity out the the Series 3 while the external eSATA port remains unactivated. Basically, an external hardware (driverless) RAID device is connected to the internal SATA port in lieu of the stock drive. Antecedents to this effort include lightrunner who first demonstrated proof of concept after extensive testing and greg_burns who found the first cost effective compatible RAID system. Others contributed valuable information including JamieP (size limitations) and folks such as C3 and bodshal among others who made suggestive remarks. My own early failure with a promising RAID 5 system also had a motivating influence if nothing else.

There were a few conditions that had to be met. First, it should not cost more than the TiVo itself. Second, it needed to be quiet and designed for the living room not the server room. Lightrunner's Sans Digital is around $1400 barebones and not particularly quiet, so, although in the desirable fault-tolerant RAID 5 configuration, was not a likely candidate. greg_burns' Thecus N2050 was in the price sweet spot but had not been tested in a 1 TB configuration and was RAID 0 (not fault-tolerant). Additionally, there were some drive compatibility and cooling issues that needed to be addressed.

I had already purchased WD 500 GB Raid Edition (WD5000YS) drives but they were not on the compatibility list for the Thecus N2050. On a vendor's customer comments section there was a comment that the WD5000YS drives were compatible with the Thecus. Other comments regarding poor thermal control design of the enclosure I figured I could address myself as needed.

So, I ordered the Thecus N2050, though imperfect, because of its demonstrated compatibility. It is an eSATA device so it required an eSATA to SATA cable. The electrical signals are very similar on the two interfaces so as long as one keeps to the maximum SATA cable length (1 meter) there should not be compatibility problems.










I first needed to create a route for the eSATA/SATA cable as shown above so the case on the S3 could be closed.










A small blade hack saw designed for a reciprocating saw worked perfectly










by just holding it with my fingers and cutting out one of the vent holes on the base of the S3. Note the error of the first lateral cut (too narrow to pass cable connector). Just cut in the other direction as shown instead so that the opening is wide enough to accommodate the passage of the SATA connector. It is a good idea to tie down the cable at the passage point so that no mechanical stress is placed on the S3 SATA port socket if the cable is inadvertantly tugged.










Although the fan on the Thecus N2050 is quiet it is not very robust. It is the kind of fan used on PC video cards that self-destruct after about a year. I replaced the stock 40mm fan with a 60mm one that actually draws almost half as much power as the original, is just as quiet, and pushes more CFM of air.

Additionally, I drilled two rows of 1/8" holes on the front underside of the enclosure and added rubber feet to keep the unit off whatever surface it is on. There is a shocking lack of ventilation openings in the enclosure (just some paper thin vent slits on the front face). Since it is plastic there is no heat-sink effect and there have been several reports of overheating. One could proably get by with using the stock fan with just the added vent holes but I already had the fan and controller and with hot knife and Dremel tool in hand I cannot leave well enough alone. That option is definitely not for the faint of heart. 










Due to space considerations the fan needed to be mounted externally.










I also added a  Zalman FanMate 2 rheostat control with knob accessible from the outside of the enclosure. Although there is a monitor line on the fan connector there is thankfully no alarm on the Thecus when just changing the RPM. It probably just looks for complete failure. I use a Raytek thermometer to periodically check the surface temperature of the drives and tweak the fan speed vs. noise equation so that the drives are never more than the equivalent of a high fever in a carbon based life form.

Before installing, I set the acoustic management mode of the drives to quiet seeks using the Hitachi Feature Tool  (you can also use Linux hdparm).

The installation of the drives and the initialization of the Thecus was uneventful. The initialization was so uneventful that my heart sank because I thought it did not work. There is no drive activity, contrary to what the manual states. Instead, the initialization for RAID 0 is instantaneous. I then used the Bumwine procedure for copying and expanding my virgin drive.

Finally, the flashing LEDs on the face of the Thecus are blindingly bright so I slid in front of the LEDs inside the enclosure a strip of two thicknesses of regular white paper to attenuate the brightness. Yes, the S3 constantly records, even when in standby.

The fan and controller I had in my parts box but would cost about $15 if one wanted that option (for fearless DIYers only).

Thecus N2050 $149
SATA/eSATA Cable $19
WD5000YS [email protected]$173 $346
_____________________
Total $514​









*Read it and weep!*

_____________________
Series 3 *TiVo* (1 Terabyte RAID) and Series 2 DirecTiVo (240GB)


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Awesome!!!!!

I wonder how man S3's are named "S3" (mine is too).


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

Just a thought - would it be possible to route the SATA connector on the main board to the eSATA connector on the back of the S3? You obviously wouldn't want to do that if you had to damage anything (in case you wanted to go back to its intended use), but it might be a way to use this type of drive temporarily until they actually turn on the eSATA connector. I'm guessing it's not possible (or somebody would have done it by now), but I thought I'd bring it up anyways because I am interested in the answer.

p.s. very nice job on your upgrade!!


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Wow. Just Wow. Awesome.


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## missiontortilla (Sep 26, 2006)

How come your software version is not updated? There is an 8.0.1b


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Great work. Wish I had the time.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

missiontortilla said:


> How come your software version is not updated? There is an 8.0.1b


He said he used his virgin drive image. It will update given time.

Great job!

I don't recall myself, but can you use Hitachi Feature Tool or hdparm while they are in the Thecus? Or did you have to do that first?

What temps are you seeing? I'm guessing around 40C? Much cooler than my 52C!


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I'd be real careful with the reciprocating saw that it doesn't throw metal shards around the motherboard. You can get a nibbler at RadioShack for like $5.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Some followup:

The S3 eSATA port is surface mounted so can't be used as an alternative.

The screen shot was from right after the disk copy so reflects the stock software version. It subsequently updated to "B" on its next network connection to TiVo.

The surface temp of the metal part of the drives is no more than 40C.

Changing the drive parameters does not work at the level of the virtual drive presented by the RAID device. To change the seek loudness setting the software has to see the individual drives. 

I was aware of the potential problem of metal shards but in actuality the blade was so fine that it was more like dust that was created on the pullstroke (slowly, by hand) so mainly fell on the ground but to be extra careful I had a vacum cleaner on and near the cutting area sucking up all metal remains. The nibbler I have would not fit.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Nice job! As much as I want more storage, I really don't want to cut up my S3. So far I'm still surviving with the stock 250GB by watching the shows as fast as I can.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

It will be interesting if we see some software upgrades in the file system area. For example, a 4096 sector size (Increasing address space eightfold per logical volume), or support for more than 2 logical volumes.

Of course, then you'd have a search problem with all the shows. At least that's what I found when I simulated high capacity Tivos last year. A linear alphabetized list of 1300 movies just didn't cut it.

I'd be interested in any comments from folks who experienced a qualtitative shift. 

I did and have commented on it. I just wonder what other folks are experiencing when they have over a thousand shows available.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

1TB eSATA. Aluminum case, but you don't get to choose your own drives.

$470 new: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...B-External-Hard-Drive-?sku=240158&src=3WFRWXX

$385 refurbished: http://www.powermax.com/product/Factory_Refurbished_LaCie_HD_1TB_Two_Big_SATAii/d-rl-301081ur.html


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

That is a huge price drop from when I looked at the Lacie just a month ago. That might be a workable alternative if it can be verified that it is bootable. Note that the Macworld review says the following
"...few non-LaCie cards can mount the drive; enclosure can become very hot."​
Actually, if it is aluminum as you say then it is good that the case itself gets hot (that means it is sinking the heat from the drives). But the review also says it is "somewhat loud" (as has been my experience with Lacie enclosures). Quietness in a home theater application needs to be a key specification.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

It's been about three weeks since the last post in this thread. Wondering if anyone had any further thoughts about the LaCie drive mentioned above. Also wondering if jlib would be willing to update us on his experience with the setup since first posting. The LaCie setup, if it would work, looks like the easiest and cheapest way to go, especially since it can be had brand-new (not refurb) for that same $385 (http://www.pricescan.com/items/item178811.asp).


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

This is all very cool stuff, but when you can put a 750 inside, it just doesn't seem worth the trouble. I might think about it if/when there is a 2 TB solution that costs less than $500.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

brossow, the one you linked is 500GB total, not 1TB. As for Thecus vs. LaCie, I don't see any reason why LaCie would not work. However, you would not know what drives are supplied with the package.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

wackymann said:


> This is all very cool stuff, but when you can put a 750 inside, it just doesn't seem worth the trouble. I might think about it if/when there is a 2 TB solution that costs less than $500.


There is a 1TB limit. 2TB less than $500 is a loooong time away.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

wackymann said:


> This is all very cool stuff, but when you can put a 750 inside, it just doesn't seem worth the trouble. I might think about it if/when there is a 2 TB solution that costs less than $500.


Some people need more storage space than others. Between my two S2 TiVos I've got more than 500 hours of recorded programming I need to catch up on. And that's at low-quality SD. I'm never going to equal that in HD storage space, but I'd like to come closer than 32 hours or even the 100 hours I'd get with a 750GB drive (which are VERY expensive right now and have reported noise issues). Plus with an external solution like that above you'd get 1/3 again more space with a 1TB solution at a lower price than the 750GB drive. Plus you could likely use the external solution PLUS an internal drive when/if the eSATA port is enabled by TiVo.

I definitely see it as worth the trouble, but that's just me.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

c3 said:


> brossow, the one you linked is 500GB total, not 1TB. As for Thecus vs. LaCie, I don't see any reason why LaCie would not work. However, you would not know what drives are supplied with the package.


D'oh! I overlooked that entirely.  Then the Thecus solution is probably the way to go -- slightly higher total cost but the security of knowing what's inside.


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## phototrek (Mar 20, 2005)

LaCie drives suck reliability wise. On our project we had literally dozens of them and they all die sooner or later, usually sooner, mainly due to heat stroke. Switched to other brands and never had any problems since. So the question in my mind is not if a LaCie would work, but for how long


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

brossow said:


> Plus you could likely use the external solution PLUS an internal drive when/if the eSATA port is enabled by TiVo.


That has been my thinking all along. Of course, it will require a reformat... 

Just ordered a pair of WD5000YS for my Thecus.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> Just ordered a pair of WD5000YS for my Thecus.


Good deal! I just ordered a pair of those drives as well, plus a Thecus.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

I finally got Cable Cards installed so I have been distracted.  So far the external Thecus with dual WD5000YS drives has been reliable and uneventul. Original drive was never booted so I did the CC install with the Thecus and therefore did not experience strange CC problems some have reported upon upgrading drive after CC installation.

Drive temp never rises above 40C. Noise (my pet peeve) seems insignificant. I did put a third piece of paper inside over the LEDs because drive activity is constant and flashing LEDs became tiresome (standby only turns off video output not the recording of the buffer as I used to think).

When greg_burns first discovered the compatibility of the Thecus, the Seagate 750 was not a viable alternative because it was the model without acoustic management. New model is quieter. Still, the extra 250GB is worth the extra trouble for me.

I did change the fan again because the one I put in was just one I had lying around but the ballbearings were a little noisy. If someone were to replace the fan I would recommend either a bushing model or a mag bearing one. I am not really even sure replacing the fan is necessary (I just did not like the look of the stock fan, I never actually tried it) but the extra cooling holes absolutely are (according to all reading I have done). Other than that, it is as if it is not there (the way it should be).

I have my DirecTiVo, the S3, and the Thecus all powered through a UPS wired to an Adcom power conditioner so I should be safe this winter.

There are some programming bugs that may limit capacity beyond 1TB for the time being so I do not imagine using the eSATA port for even more capacity if it ever gets activated (and it does not seem like that is going to happen anytime soon).

The only thing I will miss when I turn off Directv is the bicoastal DNS of all the networks I had grandfathered from long ago. It makes recording conflict resolution so much easier.

That is about it. I am extremely pleased with the S3 and I can recommend the Thecus as a compatible solution to get 1TB capacity (131 HD hours).


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to getting my stuff and doing the upgrade. Right now I'm just so darn cautious about what I record in HD for fear of bumping something else I haven't had a chance to watch, a fear that really kinda defeats the purpose of having an HD TiVo.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jlib said:


> I finally got Cable Cards installed so I have been distracted.  So far the external Thecus with dual WD5000YS drives has been reliable and uneventul. Original drive was never booted so I did the CC install with the Thecus and therefore did not experience strange CC problems some have reported upon upgrading drive after CC installation.


Comcast is finally coming back tomorrow to reactivate my CableCards (I've been distracted as well. ) I would recommend against jlib's approach here. I plan on having my original Tivo drive installed during activation and then clone it to my Thecus. That way I can put my original 250GB away knowing it has whatever magic identifier on it that I need so that if I need to reimage any drive in the future I can w/o loosing CableCard activation. Remember, you can't reimage from an already expanded drive(s).



jlib said:


> There are some programming bugs that may limit capacity beyond 1TB for the time being so I do not imagine using the eSATA port for even more capacity if it ever gets activated (and it does not seem like that is going to happen anytime soon).


I thought the 1TB limit was for a single drive. I assumed that eSATA would give us 1TB limit internal SATA port + some yet unknown extra amount on the eSATA port.

The S2 currently have dual 750GB upgrade kits available. I take that to mean the 1TB limit applies to a single drive solution only.  
http://www.weaknees.com/details2/rd750tv40.php


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## jackholexxxx (Feb 6, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> The S2 currently have dual 750GB upgrade kits available. I take that to mean the 1TB limit applies to a single drive solution only.


But if you notice the total recording time quoted (1300 hrs) is the same as installing two 500gb drives. I have been meaning to ask them about this.


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

c3 said:


> There is a 1TB limit. 2TB less than $500 is a loooong time away.


Probably less than 2 years...


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

jackholexxxx said:


> But if you notice the total recording time quoted (1300 hrs) is the same as installing two 500gb drives. I have been meaning to ask them about this.


Of course. The purpose of using a box like Thecus is to combine the capacities of multiple drives and present a single virtual drive to the host. There is no single 1TB drive on the market at this time.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

wackymann said:


> Probably less than 2 years...


..... which is a long time. Seagate is the only one with 750GB drive now. Without competition, I don't think the price will drop as fast as before.


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## jackholexxxx (Feb 6, 2004)

c3 said:


> Of course. The purpose of using a box like Thecus is to combine the capacities of multiple drives and present a single virtual drive to the host. There is no single 1TB drive on the market at this time.


Agreed, but my point was about the S2 drive upgrades and whether it could address more than 1TB. Weeknees lists the recording times of the dual 500GB drive upgrade as being the same as the dual 750GB upgrade option.

So does this mean it can only address 1TB and get 1300hrs? Or is the recording time listed for the dual 750GB option a misprint? This is what I wanted to ask them.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

jackholexxxx said:


> Agreed, but my point was about the S2 drive upgrades and whether it could address more than 1TB. Weeknees lists the recording times of the dual 500GB drive upgrade as being the same as the dual 750GB upgrade option.
> 
> So does this mean it can only address 1TB and get 1300hrs? Or is the recording time listed for the dual 750GB option a misprint? This is what I wanted to ask them.


Good question.

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-series2-tcd240040.php


> Replace your drive(s) with 1300 Hours* - Dual 500gb Drives
> 
> Replace your drive(s) with 1300 Hours* - Dual 750gb Drives


I just sent weaknees an email about it.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> I just sent weaknees an email about it.


They responded that it was a typo. The dual 750s is 1800 hours.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

Thought I'd add my "Terrabyte TiVo" to the list here. Upgraded using the Bumwine method, a Thecus N2050 external RAID enclosure, two 500GB Western Digital drives, and an eSATA to SATA cable. Worked like a charm! I'll post details in a new thread when I get some more time. In the meantime, there are quite a few pictures here taken throughout the upgrade process that may be of interest to someone: http://ambroserossow.com/gallery2/v/Brent/TiVoStuff/


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Welcome to the club! Mine is already filled up. Grrr...

Can you please check the temperature of the drives (just by feeling if you don't have a thermometer) after being in the encloser for a while? I am convinced the enclosure needs more vent holes but I never used mine with the stock fan and I am curious if it is adequate for the WD drives.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

jlib said:


> Welcome to the club! Mine is already filled up. Grrr...
> 
> Can you please check the temperature of the drives (just by feeling if you don't have a thermometer) after being in the encloser for a while? I am convinced the enclosure needs more vent holes but I never used mine with the stock fan and I am curious if it is adequate for the WD drives.


I'm a health inspector -- tomorrow (if I remember) I'll bring home my infrared and thermocouple and get a couple temps.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Great job


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

Finally got my drive back from Newegg. Doing the copy now.

This time round I just yanked the daughtercard out of the Thecus that hosts the LED's. No more freak'n light show.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

greg_burns said:


> This time round I just yanked the daughtercard out of the Thecus that hosts the LED's. No more freak'n light show.


I'm gonna have to do that next time the opportunity arises. I put a piece of 3x5 notecard in front of the lights and they're still clearly visible. The blue power light is the worst, however.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

jlib said:


> Welcome to the club! Mine is already filled up. Grrr...
> 
> Can you please check the temperature of the drives (just by feeling if you don't have a thermometer) after being in the encloser for a while? I am convinced the enclosure needs more vent holes but I never used mine with the stock fan and I am curious if it is adequate for the WD drives.


Finally remembered to bring my temp measuring devices home. Surface temp on the outside of the Thecus is 102°; surface temp on the internal drives is 126°, well below the 140° maximum operating temp specified by WD.

The only thing I did with the case to alter it from factory configuration is to pull out the plastic plug above where the E-SATA cable plugs in on the back. I have no idea if that makes any difference in temp, but I'm almost wondering if I should put it back in and thus force airflow completely over the drives instead of allowing it to escape out the back rather than through the front vents. Thoughts? I think I'm going to try it.


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

Thanks, great article. Just finished upgrading my S3 to 1TB Thecus as well.

I'm going to try laying a 60mm x 15mm fan with Vantec vibration dampeners in the bottom of the case or to the side of the drives to see if it will move enough air around the drives without drilling holes in the case. Removing the plug above the eSata connector as mentioned might allow it to push/pull enough air. My Craftsmen multimeter gave me a reading of 117F after 30 minutes with the case unmodified. The drives felt very very hot at this temperature which can't be good for longetivity. Drive temp is around 101F with the cover removed which is where I think it should be. I'll see how it goes when the parts arrive next week and take more temperature measurements.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

wgw said:


> Thanks, great article. Just finished upgrading my S3 to 1TB Thecus as well.


Welcome to the Terabyte Tivo club!

It feels almost like a blast from the past to hear of another success. In the historical context of the time of the original post, this method was really the only practical way to get quiet, high-capacity storage capability into the S3. Even the Seagate DB35 750GB drive was then not available yet. But now with the aggressively priced Hitachi DeskStar 1TB drive and soon its CinemaStar sibling, this method is now long of tooth if not obsolete, especially since the eSATA port has now been successfully accessed (although I still prefer the reliability of upgrading the internal drive to maximum capacity first). That being said, this is still a workable solution but mainly if one already has some smaller drives lying around.

I do want to report back at how trouble free and robust this whole project has performed in the last six months, though. I have not had a single glitch with performance or reliability this whole time. I would not have done anything differently with hindsight. It really makes the S3 experience much better, especially coming from the world of upgraded S2s where 131 hours would not be particularly profound. Having lived with it for half a year it now seems like the minimal amount of storage the S3 should have!

According to Brossow earlier, 117F (47C) is on the scale of acceptable temperatures (for WD drives, 140F max) but it is significantly higher than what I am recording. My temperature readings have never gone above 40C (that is just over 100F) on the drive surface with the fan I installed detuned to just below the threshold of audibility. I never used the Thecus in its stock setup so I never had a baseline for comparison. Adding a fan internally will be of minimal value because it will just create turbulence inside but not perform much in the way of cooling without connecting the fan to the outside world to exhaust heat. And even then you would need appropriate venting to allow replacement air. Even with just the stock fan it was visually apparent to me that the venting was inadequate. I think minimally you should first try drilling some inconspicuous holes across the bottom near the front . The Thecus would then need to be raised slightly off whatever surface it rests on. That will increase the volume of air transferred significantly. Any venting in the rear will short-circuit the front to rear cooling path so I don't thing that is a good idea.

Anyway, good luck. There were a handful of users that also did this project so if you encounter any problems we should probably be able to offer suggestions. But like I said, I have not had nor heard of any problems with this setup.


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

I'm really glad to hear you have not had problems with this setup. I was hoping that was the case.

I chose this method because it still seemed like the best method for a budget minded upgrade given the current price of 1TB drives. And you're right, I already had 1 500GB drive so only had to buy one more. Plus I considered it to be the best option to allow for upgrading to 2TB using the eSata port in the future based on the reported success of the "Method 2" beta upgrade reports from Spike.

You are no doubt correct about the turbulence and venting problem with an internal fan but I wanted to try it anyway. My back up plan was to drill holes in the bottom front, add some rubber feet to raise it up, and attach a 40mm to 60mm fan adapter to the back of the case. I've seen the fan adapter for only $4. It looked like your attached 60mm fan was blocking the INIT port and possibly the USB ports so I thought the adapter would allow for the addition of the larger fan without blocking these ports. You can find the adpater by googling "40mm to 60mm fan adapter"

I'm a real believer in keeping drive temperatures as close to 100F as possible despite acceptable operating temperatures reported by the manufacuturers. Many many years ago I lost drive after drive before I realized that heat was the enemy and that computer manufacturers did not provide sufficient ventilation or fans in the cases to cool the drives. Now I never install a hard drive without a fan blowing directly across the drive. I figure every degree above 100 will shorten the drive life a little bit more. Running a drive in an enclosure without a good fan blowing across it is like running an engine without coolant. Eventually it will lock up.

Anyway, thanks again for this great upgrade idea. I searched high and low for other Raid 1/5 enclosures but couldn't find any more reasonably priced options. It seems like all the enclusures they make these days are strictly NAS or use port multipliers which is incompatible. I don't think this Thecus upgrade will be obsolete until someone makes a comparable Raid/eSata box with better cooling for the same price.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

The adapter idea is great. My main purpose in upgrading the fan was to allow a more durable and robust fan to be used. I wasn't really looking for a larger fan (I actually even slow the fan down for acoustic considerations) it is just that 60mm seems to be the threshold for well built fans. The default fan is a piece of junk. I wanted to not have to revisit this in a year when the fan starts wailing and failing. Since I put high-end drives in it I figured I ought to upgrade the fan a bit for reliability concerns.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Aaargh - now that this thread has been dredged from the depths of 2006, I am in the "internal or external upgrade" quandary again!

Best Buy has the 750GB external Seagate drive in an aluminium enclosure with a 5-year warranty available for $200 this week, and I have a 12% off coupon - making it 180ish after tax! Of course, I'd have to buy an eSATAII cable at Best buy's ripoff prices because I can't possibly wait a few days for one (!), but it's still an incredibly cheap/easy way to use the Kickstart 62 (Un)Support to make my always-full S3 a 1TB S3.

But I also know I could drive 20 miles and buy a Thecus enclosure and Vantec fan!

Aargh!


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

I'm loving my Antec MX-1 enclosure. I currently only have a WD 500GB drive in it, but it is dead quiet compared to what the Thecus was (with the default fan setup and two drives spinning).

With the 1GB (per "drive") limit for Tivo, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go with the Thecus, IMO. (Unless, perhaps, you already have a pair of 500GB drives).


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

greg_burns said:


> I'm loving my Antec MX-1 enclosure. I currently only have a WD 500GB drive in it, but it is dead quiet compared to what the Thecus was (with the default fan setup and two drives spinning).
> 
> With the 1GB (per "drive") limit for Tivo, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go with the Thecus, IMO. (Unless, perhaps, you already have a pair of 500GB drives).


Yes, if data security is not a concern, I would agree that the MX-1 is an excellent choice paired with a 1TB drive. But I guess I didn't mention that my upgrade plan includes switching to Raid 1 for security when the price of 1TB drives drops. For raid backup, the Thecus is the only reasonably priced option I could find. I want to make sure I never lose all my settings and recordings again. And since I will eventually upgrade to 2TB, that's a hell of lot of recordings to lose if a drive fails. A small amount of noise from the fan or drives is also of no concern to me. The drives are quiet with AAM enabled, and I can't hear the Thecus unless the room is dead quiet with the air conditioner, stereo and TV turned off. And even then, the very slight hum is a welcome and happy reminder that the Tivo is doing it's job.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

So, you ultimately want a total of four 1 TB drives in two RAID 1 (mirrored) enclosures for a total of 2TB (assuming we will eventually be able to externally upgrade an internal upgrade easily)? I originally was trying to get a RAID 5 going hence I understand the desire for redundancy. I think it will be a while for the drive prices to drop and currently you would be paying ~$1500. I guess only you can determine when a sweet spot is reached in the price. You do have a point, though, about the bigger the drive the more painful the loss. But a modern-day sage might add "its only TV, afterall."


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

Yep, that about sums it up. It may take 6-12 months for the sweet spot price to arrive unless a raid 5 box appears for $250 or less. I was originally looking for a raid 5 box as well due to the low cost of 500GB drives. On the other hand, one might justify the expense assuming that you will be using the S3 for 10-15 years years or more. Averaging the cost over the long term usage would make the initial expense reasonable. It is almost guaranteed that both the internal and external drives will fail within 4-7 years of continuous usage because the Tivo "never" stops writing to the drives. Unfortunately, it is unknown whether or not the Thecus would detect drive failure before actual data corruption occurs on both drives, thereby rendering the mirror backup un-useable. But I don't mind being a test case just for the sake of seeing what will happen. I'll call you in 5 years and let you know how it's going. HaHa.

By the way, If anyone has experience concerning the likelihood of corruption occurring on a raid mirror drive, I would love to hear your input.


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

I received the 40mm to 60mm fan adapter and used it to attach a 60mm fan to the box. I was able to attach it to the box using the same screws holding the original 40mm fan. It's working great and is keeping the drives a cool 97F without drilling extra vent holes in the case. But I can see why you would want to lower the RPMs with a Zalman. My 60mm fan is 4000rpm and is louder than the 2700rpm 80mm fan I had temporarily set inside the open case for extra cooling. Lowering the rpm would probably also necessitate the extra vent holes to obtain the same degree of cooling. But so as not to void the warranty just yet, I think I'll stick with my current config for now. If anyone wants to increase cooling without voiding the warranty, I highly recommend the fan adapter, but you will probably want to get the Zalman as well to lower the rpm a bit.

I've pretty much given up on the Raid 1 option at this point due to cost and the fact that I just bought a second S3. I started looking at dual drive esata enclosures into which I could place both the internal and external drives. That way I will not have to remove the cover from the Tivo ever again should the drive need servicing. A nice dual drive hot swap enclosure would be great for quick access to both drives but I couldn't decide on what to get. Then I realized that I could save some money and make my own external eSata box using old parts I already have laying about the house. All it will take is an ATX case, power supply, one or two case fans, and some sata drive cables. All of which I already have. My only expense will be a 4 port sata to esata pass through PCI bracket for $20. A motherboard is not even be required. The power supply can be forced to stay on at all times by splicing the proper wires on the power connector that is normally connected to the motherboard. The whole unit can be turned on and off using the switch on the power supply. This will also ensure it turns back on after a power outage. There should even be room to set the Thecus in the bottom of the case to keep it out of the way until I can afford to fill up the box with 1TB drives and completly replace the Thecus. If it works out, I'll eventually have 4 1TB drives inside the same case connected to the internal and external ports of both Tivo's. If I can find a digital camera to borrow I'll post pictures and a how-to.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

All of your ideas sound good and perfectly doable. Someone else mentioned they had both drives outboard in an enclosure. That fan must be way loud if it is spinning that fast, though. It must be intended as an overclocker's CPU fan. Though 97F is an incredibly low temperature for a hard drive you don't necessarily want to anthropomorphize about what is an acceptable temperature. I ended up with 40C (around 104F I think) as my stable temperature because that was the sweet spot for sound attenuation. 

That 40C temperature would be very uncomfortable for me but of no concern to the drive electronics. I could have dropped the temperature even lower but it would not in anyway improve the longevity of the drive and would cause too much noise pollution. 

I guess you just have to find a balance that works for you. Also, trying to draw more air through the system than it was engineered for could make it louder (air hissing through the vent slits) without significantly adding to the air throughput.


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

Most of the 60mm fans I saw were high rpm and low CFM compared to 80mm fans. I figured it was just the nature of 60mm fans that they run them at higher rpm to get a decent CFM. I think you're right about the fan being a CPU fan. That's no doubt why no screws would fit it and I used small zip ties to mount the fan. The zip ties worked perfect by the way. Now that you mention it, most 60mm fans are probably used for CPU's. I just looked at Newegg and saw that the only fan with low rpm and high cfm was the SilenX brand. You can tell from the pictures that they re-engineered the fan blade to get maximum surface area and cfm from a smaller fan and they run at only 2000 rpm. That's definitely the fan to get for this application but they are not cheap.


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

Finished building my homemade esata case and it's working great. I used your Zalman idea and connected one Zalman to both case fans using a Y power splitter. I set the Zalman to the lowest rpm setting. The only fan I can hear is the power supply fan and it's pretty quiet. The Hitachi 1TB hard drive temp is 83F but there is only one drive in the case at the moment.

I went a step further and installed a second eSata port in the back of the Tivo above the cable cards. I didn't like the idea of dangling a cable out the bottom of the case and since I had to cut the box either way I installed the second port. Looks almost professional. Now I can add or replace both the internal and external hard drives for both Tivo's by sliding another drive in the external tower case (hidden behind the entertainment center) and connect it to the Tivo with a eSata cable. I call it my Tivo Media Center.

Here is the cable I used to add the second esata port to the tivo.
http://www.cooldrives.com/essaii3gbexp.html

I detached the cables from the PCI bracket and used the bracket as a template to cut the case with a drill and a nibbler. That nibbler is great little tool. Then I connected one end of the cable to the tivo motherboard and the other end to the back of the tivo case.

And here is the bracket I put in the tower case.
http://www.cooldrives.com/intoexes4pop.html

Still don't have a camera so I can't take pictures.

Oh, by the way, the Silenx fan did not have enough force to pull air through the Thecus box so I voided the warranty on that box to and drilled holes in the bottom. I think the 4000 rpm fan with a Zalman attached to lower the rpm just a bit still worked better.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

FWIW, my terabyte TiVo died today. Haven't been able to track down the exact problem yet -- something with the external drive setup, as replacing it with the original drive allows it to boot. With the Thecus attached, it only shows the orange "Powering up" screen. I'm extremely bummed as I have entire seasons of two shows on it that I wanted to watch (plus everything else). May post more in a separate thread as I troubleshoot.


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## brossow (Jan 25, 2004)

Finally tracked the problem down to a defective drive. One of the two WD5000YS drives crapped out, apparently. Tried the firmware upgrade and it went fine on one but failed on the other. WD diagnostics failed with a "still busy timeout" error on the bad drive. Sending it back for warranty replacement, but in the meantime I've picked up a pair of non-WD replacement drives and will be going the external route with the stock drive returned to internal. Now I just have to get back the entire last season of "Lost" and "The Sopranos" that are now gone. :-(


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Oh, man! Really sorry to hear about that. That is the one serious shortcoming of RAID 0. My original RAID attempt was a three drive RAID 5 which failed to boot with the S3. That would have been ideal from a reliability standpoint had it worked. So, the Thecus RAID 0 was just an expediency to get to 1TB a year ago even with no redundancy because it was known to work. I finally just wanted to get up and running. 

Fortunately, I have not had any problems with the same WD Caviar RE2 500GB drives you were using. I think if I had a failure I would just go with a single internal 1TB drive now. Prices should be coming down as 4 of the 5 major manufacturers will have 1TB drives out this month. Oddly, I am more concerned about having to get my Cable Cards re-initialized in such a case than the actual loss of saved programs. I never even booted my preserved original drive let alone setting up the cable cards with it so I would have to start from scratch. Again, sorry for your loss. I hope you get back up and running soon.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

jlib said:


> Oddly, I am more concerned about having to get my Cable Cards re-initialized in such a case than the actual loss of saved programs.


You may want to create a backup with WinMFS, which is supposed to backup the CableCard data as well.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

It seems easier to just put a Terabyte drive in the TiVo internally and not have to worry about having an external drive mirrored to the internal drive. I picked up a couple of Hitachi 1 Terabyte drives fro around $270. Pretty good considering I paid around $300 each for several 250GB drives years ago. And prices are going to keep coming down. I expect to have Terabyte drives in all my TiVos by the end of 2008.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> It seems easier to just put a Terabyte drive in the TiVo internally and not have to worry about having an external drive mirrored to the internal drive. I picked up a couple of Hitachi 1 Terabyte drives fro around $270. Pretty good considering I paid around $300 each for several 250GB drives years ago. And prices are going to keep coming down. I expect to have Terabyte drives in all my TiVos by the end of 2008.


HDD prices are all only relevant to when the were purchased. I recall paying ~$400 for 40MB drive back around '90 (maybe it was '89). Give it another 10yrs and we'll be talking 40TB drives for $200

CCourtney


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> It seems easier to just put a Terabyte drive in the TiVo internally and not have to worry about having an external drive mirrored to the internal drive.


Did you mean married instead of mirrored, as in using the eSATA port? If so, I agree with you that putting one big drive internally is the way to go. It is much easier than many think and you are free from the cabling problems and quirky and hard to diagnose compatibility problems of the eSATA kludge.

The few people who have RAID setups here echo back to the time a year ago when there were no 1TB drives and no quiet 750GB drives avalailable. It was just a cheap and expedient way to get to 1TB on the internal SATA long before its time. Unfortunately, as Brossow discovered, a drive failure on a RAID 0 brings the whole thing tumbling down. Fortunately, there have been no other reports. In my experience drive failure is just a crapshoot. Having a single internal drive reduces statistical risk and should be the current preferred upgrade method.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

c3 said:


> You may want to create a backup with WinMFS, which is supposed to backup the CableCard data as well.


Thanks much! I had not even though of that. If I just do a bare bones backup it won't take up too much space.


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

wgw said:


> By the way, If anyone has experience concerning the likelihood of corruption occurring on a raid mirror drive, I would love to hear your input.


so, there are two types of data corruption to worry about: ones where the drive yields a read error (refuses to give you the data); and one where the drive gives you data other than what you thought you stored (silent data corruption).

Typical raid 1 (mirror) setups cope with the former (by reading from the other disk in this case) but not the latter (because they have no indication the data isn't what was expected). Silent data corruption is a tougher nut to crack because corruption can also happen while the data is on the way to and from the disk, and sometimes the raid controller itself is the source of the corruption.

I'm told by those who care about enterprise storage systems that raid-5 is becoming increasingly problematic -- the probability that you'll hit a bad sector on a working drive while reconstructing a failed disk has gotten unacceptably high as disk sizes have increases, so there's generally a push towards raid-6, triple mirroring, and other schemes which can cope with multiple failures when you really can't tolerate the loss of a single bit.

Have I scared you yet?

Fortunately, the tivo is solving a problem which is on the whole significantly more tolerant of minor data corruption than, say, database systems....


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