# Does Tivo have any competitors?



## Gifted1

Are there any other companies out there that sell DVR units? And this is excluding cable companies that lease you a DVR unit. 

I know when I did some research a few months ago, I couldn't find any except for one that I think Sony sold years ago and they no longer sell.

What else is out there besides Tivo?


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## replaytv

You can buy a used ReplayTV DVR, but they are hard to use, not HD, and not supported. Some of them to have auto commercial skip though.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-MDR-513H-F7-320GB-DVR-and-DVD-Recorder/14291489

Is a a current model sold sometimes at Walmart. Used ones are sold on eBay too.

There are others that manufacture DVRs but none that compare at all to the TiVo. I have used many of the others and love TiVo. I don't work for TiVo. They wouldn't hire me.

You dn't tell how you are going to the use the DVR so I can't give you more particular info.


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## LoadStar

There are definitely other OTA DVRs, but I don't know of any CableCard DVRs on the market other than TiVo.

Edit: set-top cablecard DVRs, that is. Of course there are CableCard tuners for computers, and you could use them in conjunction with a compatible DVR software. (Thanks for the reminder, dlfl.)


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## dlfl

And if you use a tuner card in your PC, you will still need a CableCARD and possibly a Tuning Adapter to tune your digital cable channels.


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## mr.unnatural

There are about a half dozen models of cablecard tuners that can be used with a PC running Windows Media Center. WMC turns your PC into a full fledged DVR with many of the same capabilities as a Tivo and then some. The best part is that there are no monthly or lifetime Tivo fees to pay. Guide data is free as long as Microsoft decides to provide it. Even then there are third party guide data providers that offer it for a reasonable fee.

Any PC running Windows 7 or Windows 8 can use a cablecard tuner from Ceton, Hauppauge, or SiliconDust. WMC comes with every version of Windows 7 except Home Basic. You must have Windows 8 Pro in order to use WMC and it's only available as an add-on for $10 from Microsoft. Both versions are essentially identical.

A cablecard tuner allows you to view and record any channel you're subscribed to from your provider. They work on any digital cable system as well as Verizon FIOS. The only caveat is that you can't order PPV through your PC, although you can order it over the phone, and you don't have access to Video On Demand. Other than that it works like any cableco DVR or Tivo.

You can use media extenders to watch live or recorded TV from the main HTPC (Home Theater PC) in any room in the house via a home network. You can upgrade the PC to add as many tuners of any type (ATSC for OTA broadcasts, in-the-clear QAM, or encrypted cable) just by installing the drivers, adding the tuner, and rerunning WMC setup. There are an unlimited number of options you can install in a HTPC so it's much more versatile than any standard DVR. You can also control it using a WMC remote with a plug-in USB IR receiver.


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## Dan203

Windows Media Center development has been discontinued by Microsoft. It will continue to get guide data updates for the foreseeable future, but it's a dead product as far as enhancements and updates.

Which means TiVo is currently the only retail CableCARD DVR on the market being actively developed. I honestly wish there was more competition because I think it would push TiVo to make their product better.


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## atmuscarella

If you are looking for a New Stand Alone HD DVR Appliance, that you buy/own yourself (as apposed to rent from your pay TV provider) you have the following options:


Cable & FIOS: TiVo
AT&T U-verse: None
Dish Network: None
Direct TV: None
Over the Air (OTA): TiVo
Home Theater PCs can also be used for Cable & OTA but I don't think anyone is building appliance like devices anymore so you have to setup your own (which is easy) and there were some other discontinued OTA models that you might still find out there like the CM7400.

So as you can see there isn't much choice, you can rent from your provider, setup a Home Theater PC, or buy a TiVo and that is about it.


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## yokito

atmuscarella said:


> ..
> Home Theater PCs can also be used for Cable & OTA but I don't think anyone is building appliance like devices anymore so you have to setup your own (which is easy) and there were some other discontinued OTA models that you might still find out there like the CM7400.
> 
> So as you can see there isn't much choice, you can rent from your provider, setup a Home Theater PC, or buy a TiVo and that is about it.


The last whole house solution that was pc based and easy to install was bought by google - SageTV - in June 2011 and buried in their Kansas fiber project.


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## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> Windows Media Center development has been discontinued by Microsoft. It will continue to get guide data updates for the foreseeable future, but it's a dead product as far as enhancements and updates.
> 
> Which means TiVo is currently the only retail CableCARD DVR on the market being actively developed. I honestly wish there was more competition because I think it would push TiVo to make their product better.


WMC development may have been halted, but it will still be supported as long as Windows 7 and 8 are supported, at least with regard to updates and fixes. How long Microsoft will continue to provide guide data is anybody's guess, but I suspect it will be available as long as MS supports Windows 8, which should be approximately for another decade based on past history.

FWIW, Tivo has done very little in the area of DVR development beyond what currently exists, AFAIK. They've mostly added a lot of bells and whistles to the platform in the form of Netflix apps and such. I believe they did add more feastures to the search function a while back, mostly in the area of internet TV.

Unless something drastically changes in how TV is delivered to our homes, the DVR features in WMC should serve us well for quite some time. Aftermarket companies like Ceton, Hauppauge, and SiliconDust must believe that WMC will be around for a while or else they wouldn't still be coming out with new cablecard products. Ceton recently released their 6-tuner model and SiliconDust is supposed to be introducing a 4-tuner version of their HDHomeRun Prime sometime soon. They wouldn't be doing this if there was no market for them.

I'm not exactly sure what would be required to make Tivo a better product other than making the service more affordable. Adding more tuners was a step in the right direction. Adding a more powerful CPU with more memory couldn't hurt as well as a faster NIC. Other than that, it does what it's supposed to do. Personally, I think they would be better served if they got rid of some of the extra bells and whistles they've added.

A lot of people complain that Tivop needs to be better. Problem is, they don't specify what needs to be improved to make it so. A DVR is a DVR, plain and simple. A Tivo performs as a DVR quite well, but so does a WMC HTPC and most cableco DVRs. Each product serves a different niche crowd as they offer additional benefits (or not so much in the case of a cableco DVR other than access to PPV and VOD).

Other companies have tried to introduce cablecard DVRs and have failed. Moxi was the most promising device, but not that many people knew about it. Lack of advertising kills more products than anything else, IMHO. Tivo mostly has no competition because nobody is aware of any.



atmuscarella said:


> Home Theater PCs can also be used for Cable & OTA but I don't think anyone is building appliance like devices anymore so you have to setup your own (which is easy) and there were some other discontinued OTA models that you might still find out there like the CM7400.
> 
> So as you can see there isn't much choice, you can rent from your provider, setup a Home Theater PC, or buy a TiVo and that is about it.


Any PC with Windows 7 or Windows 8 Pro can be set up to behave as an appliance. I realize a lot of people would dispute this, but it is entirely true, at least most of the time. I've got three HTPCs that I use on a regular basis that do not require any maintenance or tweaking other than installing the monthly Windows updates. The wife uses one of them daily and my primary HTPC is used from the time I walk in the door at night until I go to bed.

I won't pretend that PCs don't have their issues, but most of them function just fine as long as you don't screw with them too much. I'm sure most of you use PCs on a daily basis at work so consider how long they function without problems. HTPCs work just as well, if not better, as long as you leave them alone.

FWIW, I'd wager that Tivos will fail as often as any HTPC given that they mostly contain a lot of the same components and are used under identical circumstances. If anything, PC components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. Tivo builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?


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## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC development may have been halted, but it will still be supported as long as Windows 7 and 8 are supported, at least with regard to updates and fixes. How long Microsoft will continue to provide guide data is anybody's guess, but I suspect it will be available as long as MS supports Windows 8, which should be approximately for another decade based on past history.
> 
> FWIW, Tivo has done very little in the area of DVR development beyond what currently exists, AFAIK. They've mostly added a lot of bells and whistles to the platform in the form of Netflix apps and such. I believe they did add more feastures to the search function a while back, mostly in the area of internet TV.
> 
> Unless something drastically changes in how TV is delivered to our homes, the DVR features in WMC should serve us well for quite some time. Aftermarket companies like Ceton, Hauppauge, and SiliconDust must believe that WMC will be around for a while or else they wouldn't still be coming out with new cablecard products. Ceton recently released their 6-tuner model and SiliconDust is supposed to be introducing a 4-tuner version of their HDHomeRun Prime sometime soon. They wouldn't be doing this if there was no market for them.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what would be required to make Tivo a better product other than making the service more affordable. Adding more tuners was a step in the right direction. Adding a more powerful CPU with more memory couldn't hurt as well as a faster NIC. Other than that, it does what it's supposed to do. Personally, I think they would be better served if they got rid of some of the extra bells and whistles they've added.
> 
> A lot of people complain that Tivop needs to be better. Problem is, they don't specify what needs to be improved to make it so. A DVR is a DVR, plain and simple. A Tivo performs as a DVR quite well, but so does a WMC HTPC and most cableco DVRs. Each product serves a different niche crowd as they offer additional benefits (or not so much in the case of a cableco DVR other than access to PPV and VOD).
> 
> Other companies have tried to introduce cablecard DVRs and have failed. Moxi was the most promising device, but not that many people knew about it. Lack of advertising kills more products than anything else, IMHO. Tivo mostly has no competition because nobody is aware of any.
> 
> Any PC with Windows 7 or Windows 8 Pro can be set up to behave as an appliance. I realize a lot of people would dispute this, but it is entirely true, at least most of the time. I've got three HTPCs that I use on a regular basis that do not require any maintenance or tweaking other than installing the monthly Windows updates. The wife uses one of them daily and my primary HTPC is used from the time I walk in the door at night until I go to bed.
> 
> I won't pretend that PCs don't have their issues, but most of them function just fine as long as you don't screw with them too much. I'm sure most of you use PCs on a daily basis at work so consider how long they function without problems. HTPCs work just as well, if not better, as long as you leave them alone.
> 
> FWIW, I'd wager that Tivos will fail as often as any HTPC given that they mostly contain a lot of the same components and are used under identical circumstances. If anything, PC components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. Tivo builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?


Running a 100 to 200 watt PC as a DVR (a new TiVo uses about 25 watts)will work, but has its own problems as people who have tried it will tell you. This is a DVR solution for very few people.


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## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC development may have been halted, but it will still be supported as long as Windows 7 and 8 are supported, at least with regard to updates and fixes.


They will not be updating or fixing MCE ever again. The entire development team was dissolved. So if there are any bugs now they will be there forever. Guide data will likely continue for at least a few more years, but there are no guarantees. They could decide at any moment it's too expensive and cut it off.

MCE is a big part of our business, so I wish this weren't true, but it is. Between the killing of MCE, the proliferation of DRM and this new trend towards killing off CableCARD in favor of proprietary downloadable solutions, the DVR market here in the US is looking pretty bleak. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Roamio was TiVo's last retail DVR.


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## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> They will not be updating or fixing MCE ever again. The entire development team was dissolved. So if there are any bugs now they will be there forever. Guide data will likely continue for at least a few more years, but there are no guarantees. They could decide at any moment it's too expensive and cut it off.
> 
> MCE is a big part of our business, so I wish this weren't true, but it is. Between the killing of MCE, the proliferation of DRM and this new trend towards killing off CableCARD in favor of proprietary downloadable solutions, the DVR market here in the US is looking pretty bleak. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Roamio was TiVo's last retail DVR.


I misspoke about support being provided for WMC. I meant to imply that Microsoft would probably be providing guide data for as long as Windows 7 and 8 are still supported. You are correct in that there will be no further development or bug fixes ever again for WMC unless Microsoft decides to resurrect the division, which is pretty much never going to happen. As long as guide data is available, I'll keep using my HTPC as a DVR. If and when it comes to an end I'll probably look into third party solutions to acquire guide data.

I haven't seen any statistics regarding streaming services vs. DVR use or disc rentals. I suspect that streaming won't impact DVR use as much as it does movie rentals on optical disc. Services like Hulu Plus do have a following, but many of us still like to record our own shows for playback with the ability to skip commercials. The younger generations seem to favor convenience over quality, which is quite a shame for the rest of us. I'd hate to see a consumer market driven by sheer impatience, but I fear that's where we're heading.



lessd said:


> Running a 100 to 200 watt PC as a DVR (a new TiVo uses about 25 watts)will work, but has its own problems as people who have tried it will tell you. This is a DVR solution for very few people.


Yes, people have tried to tell me and I've responded with an opposing view that tends to fall on deaf ears. To each his own. The reason that it is a DVR solution for few people is because they have preconceived notions and fears about using a PC as a DVR. I'd counter with the fact that there are far more people using HTPCs than you realize, but I can't back it up with actual numbers. Based on the various production runs of each type of Ceton tuner alone I'd guess that it's easily in the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of units sold. That's a lot of units for a niche product.

The thread title asked if Tivo had any competitors so I responded with a very viable one. Granted, HTPCs are mostly a niche product, but a competitor to Tivo nonetheless. In fact, there are a lot of HTPC users that used to own Tivos and made the switch, same as me. Conversely, there are some HTPC users that decided it wasn't for them and went back to using a Tivo instead. Defferent strokes is all it is.

FYI, there are lots of PC components that can be used to build a very low power PC. I've got a Kill-O-Watt meter connected to my HTPC and the last time I checked it was using only about 85 watts under full load. The PC has a full ATX motherboard with an Intel i3-2105 CPU, 8GB DDR3 RAM, a Radeon HD7770 graphics card, a BD-ROM drive, 120GB SSD for the OS, a 1.5TB WD AV drive for recording, two Ceton InfiniTV4's, two Hauppauge WINTV-HVR-2250 dual ATSC tuners, an Intel gigabit NIC, a Corsair 550-watt PSU, and a Noctua NH-C12P low profile CPU cooler. Considering the capability of this PC, it would easily compare to three quad tuner Tivos with the added capability of being able to record from both OTA and digital cable as well as features a Tivo simply does not have. Power consumption is probably going to be fairly close by comparison.


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## astrohip

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, I'd wager that Tivos will fail as often as any HTPC given that they mostly contain a lot of the same components and are used under identical circumstances. If anything, PC components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. Tivo builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?


I think this is an unfair statement. You could take your two statements and flip TiVo with PC, and the result would be the same. They're both built to do what they do, and unless one is buying some specific heavy-duty product, they are built to meet whatever demands the manuf thinks they need to be.

Plus, AFAIK, TiVos are known as workhorses, and often last far longer than their intended (or even useful...talking to you, my old S2) life.

Version 1:
If anything, PC components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. Tivo builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?

Version 2:
If anything, TiVo components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. PCs builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?


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## yokito

Ceton failed spectacularly with their echo extender and the Q didn't even make it to market. Hauppauge is in trouble. There are no good extenders for WMC.

I agree, though, that WMC will probably function for another 10 years or so which is a very long time in terms of PVR solutions - but as a whole house solution WMC has never been a good choice.


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## Dan203

The Q died because MS decided to discontinue MCE right before they went to market. It actually was a surprise to Ceton and screwed them over on a product they spent a lot of time and money developing.


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## Curt

SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime.


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## slowbiscuit

lessd said:


> Running a 100 to 200 watt PC as a DVR (a new TiVo uses about 25 watts)will work,


I guess you've never heard of the Intel NUC, which runs at less than 20 watts in a 4"x4"x2" chassis. Even with tuners and drive you're talking less than 30 watts.

Don't misrepresent the power usage of a modern PC to make a point, it's actually way less than Tivo now when you also factor in that an HTPC can sleep.


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## slowbiscuit

Dan203 said:


> The Q died because MS decided to discontinue MCE right before they went to market. It actually was a surprise to Ceton and screwed them over on a product they spent a lot of time and money developing.


But it didn't make a lot of sense to me and others at TGB that Ceton didn't want to continue with WMC7 Embedded, MS has committed to license and support it for many years to come.

There was something else going on with that product, IMO they took a look at the potential market and profit for the price they would need to charge and couldn't make the numbers work.


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## dlfl

Curt said:


> SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime.


Really? The thread topic is DVR competition for Tivo DVR. The 'R' in DVR stands for *recorder*. How many GB of recording capacity does the HDHomeRunPrime provide? (None as far as I can tell on their web page, which describes the device as a "digital cable TV *tuner*".)


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## mr.unnatural

astrohip said:


> Version 2:
> If anything, TiVo components are more robust because they're designed for specific performance at a target price point and you can install whatever suits your needs. PCs builds boxes as cheap as they can get away with and still function. Which box do you think is going to be more reliable?


If you're talking about a turnkey PC then I'd be inclined to agree with you. The comparison to build quality vs. a Tivo would then be spot on. However, I build my own so I can pick and choose better quality components than either pre-built configuration can offer. The result is not only a better performing machine but one that will likely last longer due to higher quality components. My HTPCs have been running absolutely trouble free for up to five years and counting. I've only had one maintenance issue with a HTPC in all that time and it was due to a failed Intel motherboard. I got a brand new one as a replacement under the 3-year warranty. Tivo would have given me something refurbished under their pathetic warranty.

I just looked at the Tivo website and I noticed that they now offer two and three-year extended warranties, but I didn't see what the cost was. Chances are you're just going to get the same refurbished unit they would have given you under the normal warranty, but at a slight discount. I'll have to check this out further and see what they want for the extended warranties.


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## mr.unnatural

yokito said:


> Ceton failed spectacularly with their echo extender and the Q didn't even make it to market. Hauppauge is in trouble. There are no good extenders for WMC.
> 
> I agree, though, that WMC will probably function for another 10 years or so which is a very long time in terms of PVR solutions - but as a whole house solution WMC has never been a good choice.


I'm no fan of extenders due to their inherent nature. The SageTV extenders were supposed to be far and above anything available for WMC, but unfortunately they're no longer in production and SageTV was bought out by Google and buried in a closet. The irony is that a patch was developed to allow the Ceton tuners to work with SageTV for unflagged content. I was just starting to evaluate it when Google pulled the rug out from all SageTV users. I couldn't have bought a SageTV license even if I wanted to. There's nothiong more frustrating than having some big company buy out a smaller one and quash a great product just to eliminate any potential competition.

Aside from SageTV, WMC was just about the only option for a whole house solution, good or bad. Extenders work reasonably well for playback of recorded and live TV. I just don't like the lag time with the remote commands and constant network issues. I used to get network errors all the time on my extenders and the network would always test fine when I ran the network tuner app. It just got too frustrating to deal with.

Ceton got screwed by Microsoft on all fronts. The Echo won't work with Windows 8 and the Q never saw the light of day.


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## lessd

slowbiscuit said:


> I guess you've never heard of the Intel NUC, which runs at less than 20 watts in a 4"x4"x2" chassis. Even with tuners and drive you're talking less than 30 watts.
> 
> Don't misrepresent the power usage of a modern PC to make a point, it's actually way less than Tivo now when you also factor in that an HTPC can sleep.


Your correct, so one would need more than the average knowledge to put together or even know about Intel NUC, this is a alterative to TiVo maybe, but not directly competition to TiVo as I doubt TiVo has lost a large number of sales to this or any PC solution, BUT I know that TiVo main competition is the cable co itself, ATT and Comcast X1 (just to name the ones available to me) do get most of my friends, not just because of cost or better hardware, but they love the on-sight service at no extra cost, if Comcast correctly charges a TiVo customer a cable card with all tax adds about $9/ month to ones cable bill, and the cable co has deals for multi room DRV viewing.


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## mr.unnatural

The Intel NUC, as well as the Gigabyte Brix, is a very small form factor PC that can be geared towards HTPC use. Due to its small size, it cannot accommodate anything but a mSATA drive, which tend to be a bit scarce, small in size, and not exactly cheap. They are energy efficient and can handle up to an Intel CORE i7 CPU, depending on the model. Intel is introducing a new model with a slightly larger case that can accommodate a 2.5" drive so that's good news. There's also word that a Celeron edition selling at around $139 will also be introduced.

There are no other internal expansion slots so if you plan to use it as a DVR you'll need an external tuner, either networked or USB, and an external drive for storage. I see them mostly for use as a satellite HTPC and not a primary HTPC, but they're certainly capable of being one.


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## Balzer

Gifted1 said:


> Are there any other companies out there that sell DVR units? And this is excluding cable companies that lease you a DVR unit.
> 
> I know when I did some research a few months ago, I couldn't find any except for one that I think Sony sold years ago and they no longer sell.
> 
> What else is out there besides Tivo?


I saw something called Simple TV, although I wouldn't consider it a legitimate competitor to TiVo.

It's a single tuner, and works only with antenna. No cable/satellite. It actually doesn't connect to your TV either. Apparently it's just for streaming to wireless devices. Although their website says it streams to Roku, so should be able to get on the TV through that.

Also, you have to supply your own external hard drive.

But I see that it does have remote streaming..

Oh, and premier service is $60/year, or $150/lifetime.

www.simple.tv


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## Balzer

Balzer said:


> Oh, and premier service is $60/year, or $150/lifetime.
> 
> www.simple.tv


Hmmm.. I also found that the yearly or lifetime service is tied to the user, not the box, so you could have as many boxes as you want for that cost..


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## slowbiscuit

Single tuner and OTA only (now that clear QAM is mostly going away), plus you have to supply your own storage, for $300 all in? On the flip side it does offer mpeg4 transcoding like Tivo, but still, single tuner for what they want to charge?

Not much of a competitor IMO unless you're seriously cash-strapped, a Roamio Basic with or without the Stream would be way better than this.


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## Curt

dlfl said:


> Really? The thread topic is DVR competition for Tivo DVR. The 'R' in DVR stands for *recorder*. How many GB of recording capacity does the HDHomeRunPrime provide? (None as far as I can tell on their web page, which describes the device as a "digital cable TV *tuner*".)


Settle down keyboard commando. No built-in storage, but it can be used with external equipment as a DVR. Unfortunately there's no direct competition to TiVo, which stopped innovating in 2010.


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## yokito

Curt said:


> Settle down keyboard commando. No built-in storage, but it can be used with external equipment as a DVR. Unfortunately there's no direct competition to TiVo, which stopped innovating in 2010.


Not that I have followed TiVo much after 2005 when I sold my first TiVo - just wondering about the Stream and the Mini - those have been around since 2010?


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## Dan203

The Stream was released last September and the Mini wasn't released until this March. They also released the new Roamio line in August.


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## cosmicvoid

I am OTA only, no cable available in my area.

My first DVR was the Sony DHG series, but when Rovi pulled the plug on TVGOS last year, that became a boat anchor.

So I put together a HTPC with Win7 WMC and 2 SiliconDust HDHomeRun ATSC dual tuners. Having 9TB of storage was nice. But living in the boonies, the OTA signals from Seattle are not excellent, and I found that the HDHomeRun tuners were not good at handling multi-path signals, so I had to look for an alternative.

Just in time to discover the Roamio, whose ATSC tuners do a fine job of locking to multi-path signals. This is the first Tivo product that came close to offering what I need.

A bit OT for this topic, I guess, but for me the problem is finding a DVR that has ATSC tuners, which are becomming uncommon; so the 4 tuner Roamio is a welcome find. So for me, the only two contenders are Tivo and HTPC (if I could get satisfactory tuners). But the WMC software is annoying and prone to crashing (task manager to the rescue a couple times a week), so even though its free, its still a hassle.


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## mr.unnatural

The V-Box Cat's Eye ATSC tuners were excellent at dealing with multi-path interference. They were available in both USB and PCI versions. You can probably still find them on ebay once in a while dirt cheap.

I've got several of each I'm no longer using if you're interested. Drop me a PM.


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## atmuscarella

cosmicvoid said:


> I am OTA only, no cable available in my area.
> 
> My first DVR was the Sony DHG series, but when Rovi pulled the plug on TVGOS last year, that became a boat anchor.
> 
> So I put together a HTPC with Win7 WMC and 2 SiliconDust HDHomeRun ATSC dual tuners. Having 9TB of storage was nice. But living in the boonies, the OTA signals from Seattle are not excellent, and I found that the HDHomeRun tuners were not good at handling multi-path signals, so I had to look for an alternative.
> 
> Just in time to discover the Roamio, whose ATSC tuners do a fine job of locking to multi-path signals. This is the first Tivo product that came close to offering what I need.
> 
> A bit OT for this topic, I guess, but for me the problem is finding a DVR that has ATSC tuners, which are becomming uncommon; so the 4 tuner Roamio is a welcome find. So for me, the only two contenders are Tivo and HTPC (if I could get satisfactory tuners). But the WMC software is annoying and prone to crashing (task manager to the rescue a couple times a week), so even though its free, its still a hassle.


Same experience here, my Roamio does a much better job with OTA multi-path reception issue than my HTPC with HDHomeRun tuners. Hopefully SilconDust will update the tuners in the OTA HDHomeRun (and maybe go to a 4 tuner unit), just for reference the HDHomeRun Tuners are about the same as the tuners in my Premiere.


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## Curt

yokito said:


> Not that I have followed TiVo much after 2005 when I sold my first TiVo - just wondering about the Stream and the Mini - those have been around since 2010?


No, but neither of them are innovative.


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## Scyber

Samsungs new cablecard supporting cable box will be an interesting test to the market:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/17/netflix-confirmed-samsung-smart-cable-box/

While I realize it isn't a DVR, if it is successful samsung may decide to make a DVR (or since it has USB, possibly even a software update will work). In addition, if successful other manufacturers may be more willing to enter the market.


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## slowbiscuit

Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.


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## dlfl

Scyber said:


> Samsungs new cablecard supporting cable box will be an interesting test to the market:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/17/netflix-confirmed-samsung-smart-cable-box/
> 
> While I realize it isn't a DVR, if it is successful samsung may decide to make a DVR (or since it has USB, possibly even a software update will work). In addition, if successful other manufacturers may be more willing to enter the market.


Samsung already makes a DVR that is furnished by Time Warner Cable.


slowbiscuit said:


> Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.


Amen. A pox on CableCARD and especially on Tuning Adapters.


----------



## mr.unnatural

slowbiscuit said:


> Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.


That's fine for on-demand and streamed content, but how will that work with hundreds of available channels? Aside from overloading the available bandwidth, it will also put a huge damper on channel surfing, which a lot of people still do. Going to an IP-only based solution will likely mean long waits between switching channels which simply won't sit well with a lot of customers. It will also mean highly compressed content to cram it into the limited bandwidth when trying to feed every household simultaneously.

Frankly, I don't think the current technology can handle it, but then I'm no expert on the subject. I have no problem sticking with what's currently available for a multitude of reasons.

The one question I have is whether the content would be streamed live or would it be available as VOD? Live streaming would probably require some sort of tuning adapter to keep bandwidth requirements reasonable.


----------



## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> That's fine for on-demand and streamed content, but how will that work with hundreds of available channels? Aside from overloading the available bandwidth, it will also put a huge damper on channel surfing, which a lot of people still do. Going to an IP-only based solution will likely mean long waits between switching channels which simply won't sit well with a lot of customers. It will also mean highly compressed content to cram it into the limited bandwidth when trying to feed every household simultaneously.
> 
> Frankly, I don't think the current technology can handle it, but then I'm no expert on the subject. I have no problem sticking with what's currently available for a multitude of reasons.
> 
> The one question I have is whether the content would be streamed live or would it be available as VOD? Live streaming would probably require some sort of tuning adapter to keep bandwidth requirements reasonable.


This is how SDV works now, so it wouldn't be any worse then what most people are already seeing. The switch to H.264 will create a bigger delay then switching to IP as the compression used for H.264 means there are less safe entry points for the decoder which means it has to wait longer before it can actually start displaying video.


----------



## dianebrat

I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents


----------



## lessd

dianebrat said:


> I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents


Good point as TiVo has no serious retail competition; except the renting of a cable co.s own DVR. You can't go into say Best Buy and purchase any DVR except one made by TiVo. That is the only real answer to the OP question.


----------



## Loach

I've posted this before in another thread, but thought it might be worthwhile posting here as well. Here's what TiVo says about their retail competition in their most recent annual report with the SEC on Form 10-K:



> *Competition*
> 
> We believe that the principal competitive factors in the advanced television market, which includes DVRs and other broadband enabled consumer electronic devices, are brand recognition and awareness, functionality, ease of use, content availability, and pricing. We currently see two primary categories of competitors for the TiVo-Owned channel: DVRs offered by satellite, cable, and telecommunications operators and advanced television products and DVRs offered by consumer electronics and software companies.
> 
> *Competition in the TiVo-Owned Subscription Business.* Our retail products compete in the United States against services sold directly by cable, telecommunications, and satellite operators. These products typically combine pay television reception with DVR functionality; most of these products include multiple tuners, high definition recording, and in some cases multi-room viewing capability. Some of these products are offered at lower prices but in many cases are bundled with other services provided by the operator and the price for the DVR and DVR service may not be apparent to the consumer. In addition, these products are usually professionally installed and may appeal to consumers who do not pro-actively select a DVR service. Additionally, many U.S. cable operators are currently deploying Video on Demand technology, which over time could serve as a substitute to our retail products. We are aware of at least one U.S. cable operator, Cablevision, Inc., which is deploying remote storage-based DVR products. To the extent that cable operators offer regular television programming as part of their server-based VOD offerings and DVR technology, consumers may prefer not to acquire an independent set-top based DVR through retail channels.
> 
> Our retail products also compete against products with on-demand internet-enabled services offered by consumer electronics companies including:
> 
> Personal computers: Microsoft based PCs and Apple products (among others) enable a variety of entertainment features and services which offer alternatives to traditional DVR services, primarily via internet delivery of content.
> 
> Broadband capable devices and game consoles: We are seeing a proliferation of broadband enabled devices, such as connected televisions, smartphones, single purpose broadband set-top boxes, tablets, and gaming consoles that offer broadband delivered content. Though these devices do not offer the breadth of the TiVo service, they do offer alternative ways to access internet-delivered video content through devices that many consumers may seek to acquire for other purposes. For example, many consumer electronics companies have television or DVD products that are internet enabled and others have built dedicated devices for accessing video over the internet such as AppleTV, Roku, and GoogleTV. Similarly, companies such as Sony and Microsoft have now enabled the digital delivery of video programming over the internet to their game consoles.


They go on to describe their competition within their MSO and Media Services (advertising) business, but I didn't think that was really relevant to this thread. I do find it interesting that they don't really mention computers in the context of HTPCs, but rather just in the context of internet content delivery.


----------



## Dan203

So even in TiVo's eyes their only competition is from DVRs offered by MSOs and devices that offer alternatives to DVRs via streaming services. Honestly with the uncertainty surrounding the future of CableCARDs and whatever may come next I can't imagine anyone else joining the fray. Maybe Ceton is still working on some standalone device that uses custom DVR software rather then MCE, but it's hard to imagine they'd be able to create a DVR product from the ground up that would be able to compete with TiVo straight out of the gate.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement. It's hard enough for a new company to start up without having to deal with lawsuits right out of the gate. Couple that with the costs of getting CableLabs certification and you're in the red before you even get started. Only the cable and satellite providers with the money to back it can venture into this area. Microsoft has money to burn so it's not surprising they gave it a shot.



dianebrat said:


> I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents


That's pretty much how 95% of the threads go in public forums. The OP posts a topic or question and then stops participating once they get the answer they were seeking. Keeping a thread on topic for the entirety of the discussion is more of the exception than the rule. The initial topic just opens the door to more discussion of related issues.


----------



## HerronScott

mr.unnatural said:


> I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement. It's hard enough for a new company to start up without having to deal with lawsuits right out of the gate. Couple that with the costs of getting CableLabs certification and you're in the red before you even get started. Only the cable and satellite providers with the money to back it can venture into this area. Microsoft has money to burn so it's not surprising they gave it a shot.


What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.

Scott


----------



## Dan203

HerronScott said:


> What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.
> 
> Scott


They might have eventually, but Moxi went under before TiVo won the suit against Dish. TiVo sued Dish first, after they won that they started suing everyone else. Most of them settled or made deals, so we didn't hear a lot about them beyond Dish.


----------



## mr.unnatural

HerronScott said:


> What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.
> 
> Scott


What Dan said. Moxi had a very short lifespan and quickly disappeared from sight so Tivo never needed to sue them. I'm sure they did their homework before introducing a DVR that might have copyright issues, but it didn't help them much in the grand scheme of things.

Tivo has become a household name associated with DVRs in general, sort of like Kleenex or Xerox and their respective products. Products with different names tend to get overlooked in favor of one that's more familiar.


----------



## mattack

mr.unnatural said:


> I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement.


What does *copyright* infringement have to do with anything?

I presume you mean *patent* infringement, and Tivo has various valid patents, so it's right that they can sue and win when other companies use them without paying.


----------



## mr.unnatural

mattack said:


> What does *copyright* infringement have to do with anything?
> 
> I presume you mean *patent* infringement, and Tivo has various valid patents, so it's right that they can sue and win when other companies use them without paying.


Yes, exactly. I meant patent infringement.


----------



## Gifted1

Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/simple-tv-second-gen-hands-on/

It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.


----------



## unitron

Gifted1 said:


> Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/simple-tv-second-gen-hands-on/
> 
> It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.


Apparently the first gen could handle OTA and unencrypted (i.e., no cable card) digital cable, but this article doesn't show us the back where the inputs are and doesn't specifically mention cable one way or the other.


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## atmuscarella

Really not a stand alone OTA DVR. I believe like the first one you need your own hard drive and another device to view video on a screen.

This article has a picture of the back

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-35205_7-57601497-10391741/simple.tv-partners-with-silicondust-new-hardware-2.0-software-update-on-the-way/​


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## slowbiscuit

Gifted1 said:


> Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/simple-tv-second-gen-hands-on/
> 
> It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.


It's not a Tivo competitor since it's OTA-only, and it's not a good alternative for a variety of reasons.


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## Dan203

The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.


----------



## shwru980r

Dan203 said:


> The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.


Won't the cable companies need at least one compatible third party set top box to satisfy the level-playing field provisions?


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## aadam101

Years ago you used to constantly hear people on TV shows and movies saying they "Tivo'd it". Now everyone says they "DVR'd it". It's sad. Tivo was on their way to being a household name and instead they were replaced by a generic term and generic products.


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## Dan203

The waiver Charter got said that if they could get at least one retail device on the market using their system then they could stop offering CableCARDs. There is not guarantee that one device will be a TiVo or even a DVR. And while they are required to make the scheme open and implementable by 3rd parties there is nothing that requires other cable companies to use the same scheme. So this sets a precedent where every cable system could have it's own scheme and as long as they have one retail device available they can drop support for CableCARDs reverting us to a system where hardware mobility is essentially dead. They will be required to continue servicing CableCARDs that were already deployed, but 5 years from now who knows. The entire retail DVR business could be completely dead.


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## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.


I'd be surprised if Microsoft doesn't support MCE for at least as long as they support Windows 8 since they offer it as an add-on for Win 8. MS tends to support an OS for approximately ten years on average after the OS is initially launched so chances are MCE will be around at least until 2022. By then I wouldn't be surprised if most cable systems are supplanted entirely by streaming services.


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## Dan203

That's not true. Vista's support ended in 2012 even though it was released in 2007. So it only had a 5 year run. XP is a special case where they extended support because of backlash over Vista an business users not wanting to upgrade. Win8 is scheduled for support to end in 2018, and service pack support ends in 2016, so MS could potentially kill MCE on either of those dates.

And even if it does last until 2022 there will never be another bug fix or feature. The only thing you're guaranteed is guide data. Plus if the thing I mentioned above with Charter actually happens then the PC as a DVR will be dead for good because there is no way MS will get certified for whatever these new technologies turn out to be.


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## mr.unnatural

I wasn't aware that they stopped supporting Vista. That seems like an extremely short lifespan for an OS release, although I suspect Vista wasn't as popular as MS would have hoped, which may account for the lack of support. Win 7 got a much higher level of acceptance so maybe it will get extended a while longer. 

I am surprised that MS has already announced that support will end for Win 8 in 2018. That doesn't give their customers much incentive to upgrade if they know they'll only get 4 or 5 years out of it. Win 8 isn't exactly flying off the shelves in stores so perhaps MS is viewing this as the next Vista and just intends to cut their losses and move on. 

It seems like every other OS that MS released over the past 15 years or so got a rather lukewarm welcome. Windows ME, Vista, and now Win 8 never seemed to tweak the public's interest as much as Win 98 (2nd edition), Win 2K, XP, and Win 7. People aren't all that interested in upgrading their OS every couple of years. I think most people upgrade when they have to or when they purchase a new PC with a newer OS. I only upgraded to Win 7 because it was the only way I could add cablecard tuner support to my HTPC. My PC at work still uses XP, although the company is gradually upgrading everyone to Win 7.

FWIW, MCE will never die. Just because MS stops supporting it doesn't mean it can't be used indefinitely. It just means that there will be no further updates or releases. Even if MS stops providing guide data there are third party providers that can fill the gap. I know people that are still using Win 98. Any OS can be useful for as long as there is hardware available that can use it.


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## Sixto

Hi All.

Haven't posted here in 7 years.

Been a devote DirecTV customer.

Roamio Plus arrived Friday, for FiOS.

Testing underway ...

Very impressed so far, especially with the capability of the App.


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## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, MCE will never die. Just because MS stops supporting it doesn't mean it can't be used indefinitely. It just means that there will be no further updates or releases. Even if MS stops providing guide data there are third party providers that can fill the gap. I know people that are still using Win 98. Any OS can be useful for as long as there is hardware available that can use it.


Like I said with the possibility that CableCARDs could be going away in the next few years that may not be true. If the industry shifts to some new technology MS would need to recertify MCE for the new technology. Since MCE is discontinued that's unlikely, and because the certification process is so expensive it's unlikely a 3rd party will pop up to fill the void. I'm sure PC based DVRs for OTA will remain for the long term, but for cable their days are likely numbered.


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## mr.unnatural

I wouldn't expect MCE to be recertified for any new technology since it's no longer supported. I'll be curious to see what happens on the cablecard front if that technology is going away. People with existing cablecard devices aren't going to be very happy if their provider suddenly tells them their hardware will no longer work on their system. I'd suspect that existing cablecard users will still be able to keep their cablecards while any new customers will have to use the newer technology for getting their TV signals.

I'm not sure what the laws regarding cablecard use stipulate, but I'm pretty sure that if you have a cablecard device that you want to use then the provider still has to support it. Any new technology will probably have to allow for cablecard use well after the new technology is implemented. Otherwise, I can see lawsuits galore against the cablecos, with Tivo at the forefront.

Things could get very interesting.


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## slowbiscuit

Cablecard won't be going away for a long time because it's embedded in millions of cable STBs now. Support for third-party devices is what you have to worry about with the FCC's incomprehensible Charter decision.

This will hopefully be a moot point if the FCC enforces the requirement that cable come up with an IP access standard by end of next year, which could enable Tivo and others to ditch cards (and hopefully attract new entrants, lack of competition being the biggest issue with Tivo today). Last I saw Verizon and others were working on it.


----------



## heyted

Gifted1 said:


> What else is out there besides Tivo?


Another option, in some cases, for those that like to tinker is a HTPC running MythTV and other open source software. This is not an option for those people that have cable with the channels not flagged "copy freely". Fortunately for me, Comcast has all nonpremium channels currently marked "copy freely" except one in my area. The exception is MoviePlex, but I can stream MoviePlex movies from the Comcast web site, so it is ok. I canceled all of my premium channels many months ago, and I use Netflix.

You can purchase complete HTPC hardware with no operating system, or you can put together your own HTPC. To save money, I recently used a TiVo Premiere case and hard drive to put together my HTPC. I am not the first person to do this -- do a search for MythVo. There are no mandatory service fees. I used to not like the idea of using a computer as a dvr, but I have been happy with it so far.


















I purchased another TiVo Premiere a couple months ago, and I sold the wireless adapter, power supply and remote that came with it. Here is the cost break down with the total prices shown including shipping:

Tivo = 40 purchased - (7.53+8.03+26.85 sold) = -$2.41
Hauppauge WinTV-DCR-2650 Dual Tuner Digital CableCARD Receiver = $114.95 (I could have paid less)
ZOTAC Mini-ITX Motherboard D2550ITXS-B-U = $167.99
4GB Crucial DDR3 2 2GB Memory Modules CT25664BF1339 = $37.68 (I could have just purchased 2 GB)
Total = $318.21

The Atom processor in the motherboard listed above is a good choice because of its energy efficiency. The processor can easily handle the load thanks to the NVIDIA GeForce GT 610 that plays friendly with Linux with full hardware acceleration. I have Mythbuntu installed and the award-winning XBMC media player.

A warning if others want to try this:
I originally carefully drilled many holes in a circular pattern above the fan. After testing it, the assembly went from nearly silent to sounding like multiple untuned whistles. The alternative worked out well -- I cut out the sheet metal and glued on black foam to protect the fan. It runs very quiet.


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## mr.unnatural

I've got a mini-ITX setup with an AMD E350 as a satellite HTPC in the spare bedroom. It was painfully slow until I recently installed an SSD for the OS drive. I'm not all that crazy about the mini-ITX platform because you only get a single PCI-e slot and they tend to cost more than either a micro-ATX or full-sized ATX setup. Cases are way overpriced as well. It seems like the smaller you get, the more it costs, with fewer expansion options available. I'd actually prefer an Intel NUC or a Gigabyte Brix to a mini-ITX platform for a satellite system. They can be used with more powerful CPUs for better performance (i.e., faster menus, etc.). It's not a good choice for DVR use unless you can set it up with networked storage to hold the recordings. There are several different network tuner options available.


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## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> I've got a mini-ITX setup with an AMD E350 as a satellite HTPC in the spare bedroom. It was painfully slow until I recently installed an SSD for the OS drive. I'm not all that crazy about the mini-ITX platform because you only get a single PCI-e slot and they tend to cost more than either a micro-ATX or full-sized ATX setup. Cases are way overpriced as well. It seems like the smaller you get, the more it costs, with fewer expansion options available. I'd actually prefer an Intel NUC or a Gigabyte Brix to a mini-ITX platform for a satellite system. They can be used with more powerful CPUs for better performance (i.e., faster menus, etc.). It's not a good choice for DVR use unless you can set it up with networked storage to hold the recordings. There are several different network tuner options available.


This thread has turned into *"is there any other way to get a DVR function besides TiVo (or a DVR from a cable co)?"* that has little to do with the OP original question as DIY DVRs are not competitors of TiVo any more than your a competitor of local plumbers because you fixed a faucet in your own home.


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## Dan203

The OPs question has been answered. The answer is No.


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## slowbiscuit

And that's a sad but true answer.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> The OPs question has been answered. The answer is No.


Yes I gave a detailed answer in Post #7 and hear we are at Post 69, I guess we just like to ramble on .


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## cherry ghost

Dan203 said:


> The OPs question has been answered. The answer is No.


Lock the thread


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE

I know this isn't what the OP was asking but I got a fee DVR from TWC for 1 year, and even for free, what a piece of crap that is.


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## dlfl

Dan203 said:


> The OPs question has been answered. The answer is No.





atmuscarella said:


> Yes I gave a detailed answer in Post #7 and hear we are at Post 69, I guess we just like to ramble on .





cherry ghost said:


> Lock the thread


Same ole, same ole -- why pick on this thread?


----------



## mr.unnatural

Like most threads, once the original topic has been satisfied, the thread tends to diverge into other (somewhat) related topics. Whether the thread gets locked or not is entirely up to the mods. Since it hasn't devolved into a pissing contest or something derrogatory to other members, I see no reason to lock it. If the current topic is of no interest to you then why not simply ignore it? It will eventually die of its own accord.


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## dlfl

mr.unnatural said:


> Like most threads, once the original topic has been satisfied, the thread tends to diverge into other (somewhat) related topics. Whether the thread gets locked or not is entirely up to the mods. Since it hasn't devolved into a pissing contest or something derrogatory to other members, I see no reason to lock it. If the current topic is of no interest to you then why not simply ignore it? It will eventually die of its own accord.


Or even if the original topic has *not* been "satisfied"!

Hint for those unhappy with thread: Thread Tools ... Ignore this thread


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## cherry ghost

dlfl said:


> Same ole, same ole -- why pick on this thread?


My point was that if a mod is going to make a statement like that, then he should lock the thread


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## unitron

cherry ghost said:


> Lock the thread


Just when we're getting pictures of hotrodded S4 cases?

The fun's only beginning!


----------



## mr.unnatural

lessd said:


> This thread has turned into *"is there any other way to get a DVR function besides TiVo (or a DVR from a cable co)?"* that has little to do with the OP original question as DIY DVRs are not competitors of TiVo any more than your a competitor of local plumbers because you fixed a faucet in your own home.


Based on that statement, if I fix my own faucet, then I'm taking potential work away from a local plumber. That sounds like competition to me. 

On a similar note, I used to own a multitude of Tivos going back to the original HDR-112 SA Tivo up to the S3 digital cable models. I started going the DIY route with a HTPC and several OTA tuners when I had DirecTV and they were just making the switch to their non-Tivo HD DVR. I dumped DirecTV and switched to FIOS just so I could continue using Tivos.

When the InfiniTV4 came out, I stopped using Tivos altogether. Had it not been for cablecard tuners for PCs I'd still be using Tivos today. When one product supplants another, it becomes a competitor to the original product, regardless of whether it's a niche product or one that's commercially available.

There are actually quite a few turnkey HTPCs available and there used to be a lot more. Now, HTPCs aren't going to take away a significant market share from Tivo, but it does dip into their customer base. That's enough to qualify it as a competitor, even though it may target a slightly different market than Tivo. I don't think there's any specific percentage of market share that signifies whether or not one product is competition for another. If a product provides a similar function, then it's a competitor, plain and simple. Just because some people don't see it that way doesn't make it any less of a fact.

From the OP's original post:



Gifted1 said:


> Are there any other companies out there that sell DVR units?


A HTPC configured as a DVR definitely falls under this category. Here's just one example:

http://assassinhtpc.com/

So the answer to the OP's original question is Yes, there are other companies that sell DVR units.


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## Dan203

cherry ghost said:


> My point was that if a mod is going to make a statement like that, then he should lock the thread


I think my statement was misinterpreted. I meant the OPs question was answered so there is no harm in derailing the thread to talk about MCE, or whatever. Threads have a tendency to evolve over time. It's part of the fun of this forum. As long as the OPs question was answered I see no harm in leaving it open to go in whatever direction you guys want.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> Based on that statement, if I fix my own faucet, then I'm taking potential work away from a local plumber. That sounds like competition to me.


Assuming your not a license plumber people are not going to hire you to do plumbing for them so your not competition to any plumber, as mowing your own lawn does not make you a competitor to landscapers. I and most of the people on this forum change their own light bulbs, are they competition to electricians??


----------



## alansh

mr.unnatural said:


> I wasn't aware that they stopped supporting Vista. That seems like an extremely short lifespan for an OS release, although I suspect Vista wasn't as popular as MS would have hoped, which may account for the lack of support. Win 7 got a much higher level of acceptance so maybe it will get extended a while longer.
> 
> I am surprised that MS has already announced that support will end for Win 8 in 2018. That doesn't give their customers much incentive to upgrade if they know they'll only get 4 or 5 years out of it. Win 8 isn't exactly flying off the shelves in stores so perhaps MS is viewing this as the next Vista and just intends to cut their losses and move on.


There are two dates to keep in mind: the end of regular support, and the end of extended support.

The main difference is that extended support does not offer non-security bugfixes. However, by the time the OS gets that far pretty much all of the non-security bugs that they're going to fix have been.

So for most people, the end of extended support is the real drop dead date. After that date, you may be vulnerable to newly discovered security bugs. If you're willing to take the risk, though, you can keep using them. I expect XP to carry on for quite a while still.

The end of extended support:
XP SP3: 4/8/2014
Vista SP2: 4/11/2017
Win7 SP1: 1/14/2020
Win8.1: 1/10/2023 (however, a later service pack will extend that date)

The only real gotcha would be if they discontinued the program guide, or started charging for it. They reserve the right to do that, with a 30 day notice, but a 3rd party could provide the data. There's no other "kill switch" that I'm aware of in Media Center.


----------



## mr.unnatural

lessd said:


> Assuming your not a license plumber people are not going to hire you to do plumbing for them so your not competition to any plumber, as mowing your own lawn does not make you a competitor to landscapers. I and most of the people on this forum change their own light bulbs, are they competition to electricians??


I wasn't offering my services, just pointing out that by doing it myself I would potentially be taking work away from someone that does it for a living. As for changing light bulbs, I don't know of anyone that would call an electrician to perform that task unless it was an extreme situation. I do all of my own electrical, plumbing, and carpentry work as well as my own auto maintenance and repairs. I wouldn't charge for my services, mainly because I barely have the time to do it for myself let alone anyone else. I do, on occasion, perform such tasks for family and friends if they're in a bind. I've talked my mother-in-law out of calling a plumber on several occasions and fixed the problem myself (and no, I'm not a licensed contractor of any kind).

The point is, those that can, do. Those that can't call a plumber. 



alansh said:


> So for most people, the end of extended support is the real drop dead date. After that date, you may be vulnerable to newly discovered security bugs. If you're willing to take the risk, though, you can keep using them. I expect XP to carry on for quite a while still.


The risk would be minimal beyond that point since most hackers would most likely not be wasting their time on older operating systems and would be concentrating on what's current. The number of people using XP beyond it's supported life will be far less than users or more recent versions of Windows. Hackers and virus developers go after whatever OS has the most users for maximum effect. That's the only reason Mac users aren't affected by viruses. There just aren't enough of them to make it worthwhile going after.



> The only real gotcha would be if they discontinued the program guide, or started charging for it. They reserve the right to do that, with a 30 day notice, but a 3rd party could provide the data. There's no other "kill switch" that I'm aware of in Media Center.


The lack of free program guide data can definitely be an issue, but there are third party providers that will give you the data for a modest subscription fee. It would involve some tweaking in Media Center or whatever front end you're using, but it can be done.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> I wasn't offering my services, just pointing out that by doing it myself I would potentially be taking work away from someone that does it for a living. As for changing light bulbs, I don't know of anyone that would call an electrician to perform that task unless it was an extreme situation. I do all of my own electrical, plumbing, and carpentry work as well as my own auto maintenance and repairs. I wouldn't charge for my services, mainly because I barely have the time to do it for myself let alone anyone else. I do, on occasion, perform such tasks for family and friends if they're in a bind. I've talked my mother-in-law out of calling a plumber on several occasions and fixed the problem myself (and no, I'm not a licensed contractor of any kind).


One that takes potential work from someone is not normally called a competitor, if I need a electrician I may ask my friends if they know of a good one or look on the web for an electrician, if I get say five names they are competitors of each other, not someone like you who (if I did not know) I would never call. The consumer that wants a TV DVR can only purchase a TiVo, or rent a DVR from their cable co, if all this person has only OTA than TiVo is the only off the shelf option that makes sense, except for a few DIY people. When I fix something in my home I don't think of myself as a competitor to anybody as I would not do this work for money (or free) for someone I did not know. I help friends and family all the time with say putting in a new wall switch etc. but that not a competitor to anybody.


----------



## tivoyahoo

Samsung's recent product launch and acquisition of Boxee combined with their consumer products position could make them a player:

http://avproductreviews.com/samsung-smart-media-player-gx-sm530cf/
"Samsungs acquiring of Boxee could mean that they will offer a cloud DVR service at some point."
"Nothing has been announced as of yet for a cloud DVR service"

more links re the $138 street price GX-SM530CF cable card box / media streamer:

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/blu-ray-dvd/GX-SM530CF/XAA
Parts : 36 months, Labor : 36 months plus 3 extra months if you register online

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1498949/samsung-gx-sm530cf-cablecard-tuner-and-media-streamer
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1495453/samsung-smart-media-player

from http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/samsung-gx-sm530cf/4505-6739_7-35830635.html
"A Time Warner Cable spokeswoman said her company is working with Samsung to make on-demand content available along with live programming."

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-GX-SM530CF-Streaming-Player-Built-In/product-reviews/B00EYO241Q/

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Samsung-GX-SM530CF-Smart-Media-Set-Top-Box/32478996

http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php...sm530cf-cable-box-and-streaming-media-player/


----------



## waterchange

mr.unnatural said:


> A HTPC configured as a DVR definitely falls under this category. Here's just one example:
> 
> http://assassinhtpc.com/
> 
> So the answer to the OP's original question is Yes, there are other companies that sell DVR units.


Wow, those prices sorta makes a TiVo (+ lifetime) seem like a bargain.


----------



## mr.unnatural

waterchange said:


> Wow, those prices sorta makes a TiVo (+ lifetime) seem like a bargain.


The basic hardware may be pricey, but you can add features and additional hardware, like more tuners, which brings the overall cost down to where it becomes competitive with Tivo. There are no fees attached with an HTPC for guide data or feature activation, as with a Tivo, so that needs to be factored into the cost. Assassin also provides support for what he sells. I haven't actually looked at his price list, but his HTPCs get a lot of good feedback from customers from what I've heard. He's a regular contributor over at the Home Theater PC section of the AVS Forums and is quite knowledgeable. I've built several HTPCs based on his recommended components and I haven't been disappointed.

These are products for people that would like to venture into HTPCs but don't feel comfortable building their own. It's similar to people here that would rather use Weaknees or other service for upgrading a Tivo drive rather than doing it themselves.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> The basic hardware may be pricey, but you can add features and additional hardware, like more tuners, which brings the overall cost down to where it becomes competitive with Tivo. There are no fees attached with an HTPC for guide data or feature activation, as with a Tivo, so that needs to be factored into the cost. Assassin also provides support for what he sells. I haven't actually looked at his price list, but his HTPCs get a lot of good feedback from customers from what I've heard. He's a regular contributor over at the Home Theater PC section of the AVS Forums and is quite knowledgeable. I've built several HTPCs based on his recommended components and I haven't been disappointed.
> 
> These are products for people that would like to venture into HTPCs but don't feel comfortable building their own. It's similar to people here that would rather use Weaknees or other service for upgrading a Tivo drive rather than doing it themselves.


A cloud DVR would never be as responsive as your own DVR and commercial skip could be disable as it is now with OD from ABC and FOX.


----------



## mr.unnatural

lessd said:


> A cloud DVR would never be as responsive as your own DVR and commercial skip could be disable as it is now with OD from ABC and FOX.


OK, you lost me. Where did this come from?


----------



## Dan203

I think he quoted the wrong post. Someone above mentioned Samsung bought Boxee which offered a cloud DVR.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> I think he quoted the wrong post. Someone above mentioned Samsung bought Boxee which offered a cloud DVR.


Your correct that was what I was referring to.


----------



## mr.unnatural

lessd said:


> Your correct that was what I was referring to.


Thanks for the clarification. I thought I was having a 60's flashback or something. 

Anyway, I agree about the cloud DVR. I can't address the commercial skip issue as it currently works fine on my HTPC using the ShowAnalyzer Suite. If commercial skip did disappear, there's always the 30-second skip function that's available on any WMC remote. I generally use commercial skipping for recorded shows and the 30-second skip when watching NFL games being recorded but currently in progress. Every commercial break is exactly 2 minutes long during the game and 2-1/2 minutes for the 2-minute warning break. 4 or 5 quick presses of the Skip button and I'm back to the game.


----------



## Dan203

With a cloud based DVR they would have complete control. They could disable commercial skipping just like they do on a lot of websites with VOD abilities.

A few weeks ago I missed the last couple minutes of The Walking Dead because of a glitch on my TiVo. So I went to AMC.com to watch it. All I needed was the last 2 minutes. It would not let me skip the commercial breaks. And the commercial breaks were just as frequent and just as long as they are on real TV. So I had to wait for 4-5 commercial breaks, 3+ minutes long each, just to watch the last 2 minutes of the show. It was agonizing.


----------



## Bigg

lessd said:


> Running a 100 to 200 watt PC as a DVR (a new TiVo uses about 25 watts)will work, but has its own problems as people who have tried it will tell you. This is a DVR solution for very few people.


This particular problem is only if you're running hardware that's ill-suited for HTPC use. I built an HTPC with a 35W processor and a high-efficiency PSU that uses far less than 100 watts.

That being said, MCE is a disaster. The UI is terrible, it makes no sense, it's hard to use, and it doesn't have the features that TiVo does. Even though it's great in theory, I learned, after dropping about $1k on an MCE machine, that it completely sucks for a DVR. It was also unreliable, and would have random errors and crashes for no apparent reason on what was otherwise a brand new, clean machine. I still have the machine for playing back media, but it doesn't have a CableCard anymore.

Especially with TiVo moving to 6 tuners and having the Mini to create a true whole-home DVR system, MCE has nothing going for it at this point. It's dead. I wish it wasn't, as with some serious development and a far better UI, it could be a really amazing and powerful DVR system, but it just didn't have enough market appeal.

DirecTV is the biggest competitor to TiVo since they have a really neat whole-home DVR system, and since they don't support TiVo like cable and FIOS.



Curt said:


> Unfortunately there's no direct competition to TiVo, which stopped innovating in 2010.


This is also true.



mr.unnatural said:


> That's fine for on-demand and streamed content, but how will that work with hundreds of available channels? Aside from overloading the available bandwidth, it will also put a huge damper on channel surfing, which a lot of people still do. Going to an IP-only based solution will likely mean long waits between switching channels which simply won't sit well with a lot of customers. It will also mean highly compressed content to cram it into the limited bandwidth when trying to feed every household simultaneously.


Well actually, U-Verse is IPTV, and has the fastest channel changing times of any major service in the US. Multicast allows it to work with the same (or less) bandwidth than regular cable. The PQ sucks only because AT&T hasn't built out enough bandwidth to the last mile.

Cable will take a long, long time to convert to anything. They, for the most part, aren't even using MPEG-4.

Cloud DVR systems can only work when provided through the MSO, as they require a ton of bandwidth. It's not going to work over the internet for the forseeable future.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> That being said, MCE is a disaster. The UI is terrible, it makes no sense, it's hard to use, and it doesn't have the features that TiVo does. Even though it's great in theory, I learned, after dropping about $1k on an MCE machine, that it completely sucks for a DVR. It was also unreliable, and would have random errors and crashes for no apparent reason on what was otherwise a brand new, clean machine. I still have the machine for playing back media, but it doesn't have a CableCard anymore.
> 
> Especially with TiVo moving to 6 tuners and having the Mini to create a true whole-home DVR system, MCE has nothing going for it at this point. It's dead. I wish it wasn't, as with some serious development and a far better UI, it could be a really amazing and powerful DVR system, but it just didn't have enough market appeal.


We've already been down this road with you before. That's just your opinion and you're welcome to it. However, bashing a program simply because you had an issue getting it set up properly makes you a minority of 1. It also shows just how little tolerance you have for something that doesn't live up to your expectations.

The UI is purely subjective. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard that has such an extreme issue with it. User Interfaces are like remote controls. You can never design one that suits everyone. Clearly, the WMC UI doesn't suit you so let's move past it.

I've built probably at least a dozen or more HTPCs with WMC using various mixes of hardware and software and only had an issue with one of them due to a faulty motherboard. I currently have three HTPCs that run 24/7 and they are 100% reliable and as simple to use as a Tivo for watching and recording TV. My wife, who is about as illiterate with technology as you can possible get, even knows how to use the HTPC in the family room to watch movies from my server and then return to live TV when she is watching the grandkids.

FYI, MCE refers to the special edition of Windows XP with Media Center (i.e., Media Center Edition) that was released in 2005 so try and get with the program. The correct name for the program included with Vista and Windows 7 and currently available as an add-on for Windows 8 is Windows Media Center. If you're going to criticize something, at least know the name of the software you're bashing.


----------



## Dan203

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI, MCE refers to the special edition of Windows XP with Media Center (i.e., Media Center Edition) that was released in 2005 so try and get with the program. The correct name for the program included with Vista and Windows 7 and currently available as an add-on for Windows 8 is Windows Media Center. If you're going to criticize something, at least know the name of the software you're bashing.


To be fair a LOT of people still refer to it as MCE. I see it all the time on our forums and over on TheGreenButton.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Dan203 said:


> To be fair a LOT of people still refer to it as MCE. I see it all the time on our forums and over on TheGreenButton.


They must be friends of Bigg.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> We've already been down this road with you before. That's just your opinion and you're welcome to it. However, bashing a program simply because you had an issue getting it set up properly makes you a minority of 1. It also shows just how little tolerance you have for something that doesn't live up to your expectations.
> 
> The UI is purely subjective. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard that has such an extreme issue with it. User Interfaces are like remote controls. You can never design one that suits everyone. Clearly, the WMC UI doesn't suit you so let's move past it.
> 
> I've built probably at least a dozen or more HTPCs with WMC using various mixes of hardware and software and only had an issue with one of them due to a faulty motherboard. I currently have three HTPCs that run 24/7 and they are 100% reliable and as simple to use as a Tivo for watching and recording TV. My wife, who is about as illiterate with technology as you can possible get, even knows how to use the HTPC in the family room to watch movies from my server and then return to live TV when she is watching the grandkids.
> 
> FYI, MCE refers to the special edition of Windows XP with Media Center (i.e., Media Center Edition) that was released in 2005 so try and get with the program. The correct name for the program included with Vista and Windows 7 and currently available as an add-on for Windows 8 is Windows Media Center. If you're going to criticize something, at least know the name of the software you're bashing.


I'm sorry that I actually expect the interface of something to be better than Comcast's crappy DVR. MCE isn't. TiVo is far and away better.



Dan203 said:


> To be fair a LOT of people still refer to it as MCE. I see it all the time on our forums and over on TheGreenButton.


Yup.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Bigg said:


> That being said, MCE is a disaster. The UI is terrible, it makes no sense, it's hard to use, and it doesn't have the features that TiVo does. Even though it's great in theory, I learned, after dropping about $1k on an MCE machine, that it completely sucks for a DVR. It was also unreliable, and would have random errors and crashes for no apparent reason on what was otherwise a brand new, clean machine. I still have the machine for playing back media, but it doesn't have a CableCard anymore.


For you maybe, but not for plenty other folks that use WMC. It does not suck at all as a DVR in my house, and my wife is the main user (I prefer the Tivo).


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> I'm sorry that I actually expect the interface of something to be better than Comcast's crappy DVR. MCE isn't. TiVo is far and away better.


I have been fortunate enough never to have suffered with a Comcast DVR so I can't comment to the UI. For me, I just want something that works and I'm not hung up on the bells and whistles or pretty menus. If the software does what it's supposed to do and it does it reliably then I'm happy. WMC works perfectly fine for my needs and has been extremely reliable by never missing a recording unless there were forces at work beyond my control (i.e.,.loss of signal or last minute schedule changes).

I seem to recall asking you for details about your setup in a wasted attempt at getting your HTPC to work. I also recall you blowing me off and ignoring any offers for help. All you've done is complain about a setup you couldn't get working and then declaring WMC to be a complete disaster.

I've said numerous times before that HTPCs are basically a niche product geared more towards hobbyists and tinkerers than mainstream consumers. OTOH, anyone with a working Windows 7 PC using the Home Premium version or higher can easily convert it to a HTPC by adding a tuner card. You could also just use it for music or video playback. The line between niche product and consumer appliance has gotten extremely fine over the years when it comes to WMC.

Anyone that can build their own PC can build a reliable working HTPC (seriously, if you can hold a screwdriver and install software you can build one; fixing problems and troubleshooting are something altogether different and best left to more advanced users). Of course, since it's a PC, there's always a chance you'll have some issues with incompatible hardware, flaky drivers, etc. Bigg just had the misfortune of putting together a PC that had problems from the start. He's more of the exception than the rule when it comes to HTPCs. Then again, it's not something I would recommend for your aging parents that aren't tech savvy.


----------



## Bigg

I tried a lot with that HTPC, and at some point, I needed something that works. That's why I have the Premiere XL4 now. Even if it had worked 100% (which is should have in the first place), the interface was a disaster and didn't make any sense.

It was a BRAND NEW, completely clean machine and it had quite a few issues. There is no excuse for that. It has ZERO issues now that I'm not using it as a DVR. Gee, what changed? I'm not using MCE anymore for DVR. Interesting, isn't it?


----------



## mr.unnatural

Every once in a while someone has issues with WMC. I get that. It sucks when it happens and I'm truly sorry that you had problems. There's usually a reason why it occurs and most of the time it can be fixed fairly easily once you've isolated the source of the problem. The thing is, it isn't usually WMC that's the culprit but rather just a bad mixture of hardware, drivers, and/or third party software. The point being, there probably is an excuse for what happened to your PC. You just couldn't figure out what it was and just decided to blame WMC for your woes instead of isolating the real problem.

Case in point - I tried upgrading a MSI motherboard with Windows 7 from XP and it totally flaked out on me. I'd get all sorts of blue screens and other assorted problems. I eventually succombed and bought a different motherboard and installed Win 7 with no further issues. Skip ahead about six months later when I tried reinstalling Win 7 on the same setup. This time it installed with no problems and worked like a champ. I assume that what had changed was that MS released Service Pack 1 for Win 7. I also installed upgraded drivers for all of the hardware. Perrhaps you had also tried installing Win 7 using the early version, which definitely had some issues with WMC and certain combinations of hardware and drivers. SP1 fixed a huge number of issues and made it extremely stable.

I'm no fan of Microsoft or their products, but Windows 7 is the most stable platform they've developed to date (I've only tried Windows 8 briefly and I generally don't care for it. They shouldn't require you to re-learn the interface from scratch, but I digress).

I use WMC on a daily basis with absolutely no issues. I've recorded thousands of hours of programming using WMC without missing a single show. I prefer it over any previous Tivo simply because it allows me to do everything from a single platform and UI. I can watch live or recorded TV, surf the internet, play games, listen to music, or stream movies from my server, as well as a plethora of other tasks. I mostly just watch recorded TV and movies, but you get my drift.


----------



## Bigg

The system was clean except for basic drivers. I can't imagine how bad it would be on a system with a couple years of junk installed...

I installed it after Windows 7 was out for years, and I installed all of the update.

And even if it worked 100%, the interface is still an abomination. Yes, you can do anything on a Windows PC, but the keyboard/mouse interface isn't friendly to use at all. Boxes like Roku do it all so much better with a so much better interface. The only place I do like the HTPC is for playback of video files, as VLC will play back literally anything. Certain types of streaming video sites are also only available through a web browser, so if you can't find them on torrent, there's another use...


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> The system was clean except for basic drivers. I can't imagine how bad it would be on a system with a couple years of junk installed...


Well, most people that build HTPCs use them for a specific purpose, so they are extremely unlikely to contain a lot of "junk." You set it up with the bare minimum software and then you leave it alone. The only things I install are select Windows updates that I screen before installing. I will update drivers on occasion, but most of the time I find it completely unnecessary. If it ain't broke....



> And even if it worked 100%, the interface is still an abomination.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on that and move on. It's simply not worth arguing with someone that's convinced the UI is that bad. Most people don't have any issue with it so you're definitely in the minority here.



> Yes, you can do anything on a Windows PC, but the keyboard/mouse interface isn't friendly to use at all.


There are countless possibilities for using a keyboard, mouse, or remote with a HTPC. I personally control everything from within WMC using a Harmony One remote programmed for a WMC PC. If I need a keyboard or mouse on occasion I use a Lenovo 5902. It's got a complete keyboard, sans function keys, and a trackball pad so it can be used with one hand, although I prefer to use two when typing. It has backlighting so it can be used in the dark plus it has all of the same functions as a standard multimedia keyboard for full transport control of the DVR. I only use it when I'm in the Windows desktop for accessing files and installing updates. The rest of the time it stays in WMC so all I need is a remote to control everything.



> Boxes like Roku do it all so much better with a so much better interface.


They're fine for playback of video files and streaming services, but you can't record with them, which is the one feature I use the most on my HTPC. I've used several media players and, quite frankly, I think the UI on the ones I've tried is vastly inferior to my HTPC and most other consumer devices I've used. I haven't tried a Roku box so it may be better than the others. It may be fine for you, but it's extremely limited for others like me. As to how well they work vs. a HTPC, I'll stack mine up against yours any day of the week. 



> The only place I do like the HTPC is for playback of video files, as VLC will play back literally anything. Certain types of streaming video sites are also only available through a web browser, so if you can't find them on torrent, there's another use...


VLC is a fine media player and I do use it on occasion, but I personally prefer XBMC as it allows me to play Blu-Ray rips in full 1080p mkv format while bitstreaming HD audio in either DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD to my 7.1 surround system. I'm not a big fan of streaming services, mainly because they have to compress the heck out of the original source files to reduce bandwidth. Some also make you sit through commercials with no way to skip past them, which totally defeats the purpose of owning a DVR. I've got such a huge library of movies and stockpiled TV shows that I literally watch everything on demand.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Arguing with him about WMC is like talking to a wall. What Bigg says must be true for everyone because he says it is, and any attempt to show otherwise just results in a big circle of arguments.

Must be a nice fantasy world to live in where your opinion is the only truth.


----------



## cncb

Bigg said:


> Even if it had worked 100% (which is should have in the first place), the interface was a disaster and didn't make any sense.


Having said that I'm a little surprised you can even use a computer and post on this forum. I honestly have never heard of someone not able to "figure out" the WMC interface.


----------



## mr.unnatural

It's really not all that complicated to figure out. There are loads of tutorials on setting up WMC if you get stuck so there's no reason why anyone should ever struggle with it. The average person should be able to figure it out without resorting to a tutorial. In fact, the first thing you're prompted to do when starting Media Center for the first time is to run through guided setup, just like a Tivo, so I would at least expect some level of familiarity in that regard. Some of the more advanced features may require a little investigation, such as assigning tuner priorities to specific channels. I do that to make sure my main HTPC isn't tying up any of the networked tuners so they're always available to the remote PCs. There are websites that discuss various tips and tricks available to WMC users which a Google search would have easily shown with a little effort.

If anything, Microsoft dumbed down the UI so just about anyone could use it. It's hardly complex and definitely not the disaster that Bigg claims it to be. Apparently they didn't realize it was still beyond Bigg's level of expertise. Once you've set it up, there's little or no reason to access any of the more advanced features. I rarely have to deviate from the main screen except perhaps to manually kickstart the guide data download if I'm trying to schedule something to record that's past the end of the current guide data (it generally goes out to about 12 days, but sometimes less if it hasn't automatically updated recently).


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Well, most people that build HTPCs use them for a specific purpose, so they are extremely unlikely to contain a lot of "junk." You set it up with the bare minimum software and then you leave it alone. The only things I install are select Windows updates that I screen before installing. I will update drivers on occasion, but most of the time I find it completely unnecessary. If it ain't broke....
> 
> We'll just have to agree to disagree on that and move on. It's simply not worth arguing with someone that's convinced the UI is that bad. Most people don't have any issue with it so you're definitely in the minority here.
> 
> There are countless possibilities for using a keyboard, mouse, or remote with a HTPC. I personally control everything from within WMC using a Harmony One remote programmed for a WMC PC. If I need a keyboard or mouse on occasion I use a Lenovo 5902. It's got a complete keyboard, sans function keys, and a trackball pad so it can be used with one hand, although I prefer to use two when typing. It has backlighting so it can be used in the dark plus it has all of the same functions as a standard multimedia keyboard for full transport control of the DVR. I only use it when I'm in the Windows desktop for accessing files and installing updates. The rest of the time it stays in WMC so all I need is a remote to control everything.
> 
> They're fine for playback of video files and streaming services, but you can't record with them, which is the one feature I use the most on my HTPC. I've used several media players and, quite frankly, I think the UI on the ones I've tried is vastly inferior to my HTPC and most other consumer devices I've used. I haven't tried a Roku box so it may be better than the others. It may be fine for you, but it's extremely limited for others like me. As to how well they work vs. a HTPC, I'll stack mine up against yours any day of the week.
> 
> VLC is a fine media player and I do use it on occasion, but I personally prefer XBMC as it allows me to play Blu-Ray rips in full 1080p mkv format while bitstreaming HD audio in either DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD to my 7.1 surround system. I'm not a big fan of streaming services, mainly because they have to compress the heck out of the original source files to reduce bandwidth. Some also make you sit through commercials with no way to skip past them, which totally defeats the purpose of owning a DVR. I've got such a huge library of movies and stockpiled TV shows that I literally watch everything on demand.


Some people use MCE machines for other things as well.

I KNOW it's a bad interface. I was kind of spoiled, having TiVo as my first DVR (Series 2), but still I hoped MCE would be halfway between Comcast and TiVo, that shouldn't be too much to ask!!

Roku is so much better than the PC for most streaming, as the interface is really easy to use, the remote is excellent, and RF. I only resort to the PC when the content providers have locked down streaming so that it can't be streamed to the TV (except for the obvious fact that my HTPC has an HDMI port- who woulda thunkit?), so I have to use Chrome on the HTPC and a regular web interface.

I watch everything except sports on my schedule. The quality of VUDU HDX is visually imperceptible from Blu-Ray, and Amazon looks excellent. I don't like iTunes as much. It's shaper than Amazon, but they do TV shows at 1080p/24 with low bitrates, with not only look weird at 24p, but you get way more artifacts than at Amazon's 720p, where the bitrate isn't that much lower.



cncb said:


> Having said that I'm a little surprised you can even use a computer and post on this forum. I honestly have never heard of someone not able to "figure out" the WMC interface.


I figured it out in like 5 minutes. That doesn't make it any less of a complete PITA to use. It's like a dysfunctional Nokia phone. Click way too many times to do anything, with a UI that makes absolutely no sense.



mr.unnatural said:


> Apparently they didn't realize it was still beyond Bigg's level of expertise.


I'm not an idiot. I got MCE up and running just fine. That doesn't make the interface any less horrible. I've built PCs, upgraded laptops, run VMs, installed ROMs on Android phones, etc, and I've seen my fair share of really crummy products. MCE was one of them. MCE's interface fell short of the Comcast DVR interface. Talk about missing a really, really low bar. TiVo's interface is by far the best I've used, although I've never used the DirecTV HR44.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> I KNOW it's a bad interface.


Well if you KNOW it then it must be true. 

How about we take a vote on it? Everyone that thinks WMC has a bad UI, please raise your hand.

Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

It appears you are the only one with a raised hand. 



Bigg said:


> I'm not an idiot.


Nobody ever said you were, although you've implied it with almost every post. 



> I got MCE up and running just fine.


Really? You seem to be the only one that has a problem getting around the UI and that it is the single most horrible thing in the universe. According to previous posts you indicated you could never get WMC working correctly. Now you're saying that it works fine and your only complaint is the UI? I thought I was the only senile person in the room. 

I guess WMC really isn't idiot-proof after all.


----------



## atmuscarella

Whenever we get into one of these threads where we are talking about "competitors" to TiVo it really boils down to what an individual feels it means to be a "competitor" with TiVo and to some extent what the individual actually believes a TiVo is. 

Personally I would say there are alternatives to a stand alone TiVo DVR however in the stand alone DVR market place I would say TiVo has no competitors. 

To complicate it further what alternatives an individual has also depends on where the individual wishes to get their content from, if the content is SD or HD, and if the individual is willing to look at used equipment. 

I really don't think it is that hard for most people to figure out what their alternatives are based on where their content is coming from.


----------



## mr.unnatural

atmuscarella said:


> I really don't think it is that hard for most people to figure out what their alternatives are based on where their content is coming from.


While I agree in principle with the majority of your post, this part is where I'd have to disagree. I'd have to say that there is a vast number of consumers that have little or no knowledge of what a DVR is or what it does over and above what their provider tells them, not to mention general lack of knowledge of SD vs. HD. While they may be familiar with the name "Tivo," they may not be familar with the features it offers. DVRs in general aren't as widely known as other consumer devices, such as Blu-Ray players or iPhones.

I know that if I asked my 90-year old mother if she would like to have a Tivo I'd get a deer-in-the-headlights look of confusion. In fact, Verizon gave her a HD DVR when she signed up and she was totally unaware that she had it, let alone what to do with it. Once I informed her of what she had she said she didn't need it and opted to get the less expensive HD set top box instead.


----------



## atmuscarella

mr.unnatural said:


> While I agree in principle with the majority of your post, this part is where I'd have to disagree.


My statement assumed they new enough to be trying to find out what the alternatives where. But I do agree many people know nothing about DVRs.

I helped some friends move from SD to HD last year (they got a 50" Panasonic Plasma). While both have college degrees and high incomes TV isn't all that import to them. They were still using a VCR a few times a week with analog cable to time shift. It really only took me a few minutes to go through TWC DVRs, TiVo, HTPC, On demand, & streaming video. They still use the VCR for some news type shows and on demand for some HD shows, didn't thing any other option was worth paying for and still get DVDs from Netflix even though the TV is connected to the Internet and has a good Netflix app built in. I honestly couldn't stand watching TV the way they do but it works for them.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I know what you mean. I can't stand the way some people watch TV, but it's clearly not as important to them as it is to me. I can't tolerate watching TV in a motel room unless the TV has been upgraded to a flat screen with available HD channels to watch. I have to bite my tongue when I go to someone's house and they're watching TV at the factory settings. The contrast is cranked to 100 and the colors are oversaturated, but they love it so I keep it to myself.

Let's face it, we're all TV nerds and we love it.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Well if you KNOW it then it must be true.
> 
> Nobody ever said you were, although you've implied it with almost every post.
> 
> Really? You seem to be the only one that has a problem getting around the UI and that it is the single most horrible thing in the universe. According to previous posts you indicated you could never get WMC working correctly. Now you're saying that it works fine and your only complaint is the UI? I thought I was the only senile person in the room.
> 
> I guess WMC really isn't idiot-proof after all.


WMC is a mess. It's one of the few things that I never got to work 100% correctly, although I did use it for a little while. My point is that IF it did work 100%, it would still be a wretched POS because of how bad the UI is.



mr.unnatural said:


> While I agree in principle with the majority of your post, this part is where I'd have to disagree. I'd have to say that there is a vast number of consumers that have little or no knowledge of what a DVR is or what it does over and above what their provider tells them, not to mention general lack of knowledge of SD vs. HD. While they may be familiar with the name "Tivo," they may not be familar with the features it offers. DVRs in general aren't as widely known as other consumer devices, such as Blu-Ray players or iPhones.
> 
> I know that if I asked my 90-year old mother if she would like to have a Tivo I'd get a deer-in-the-headlights look of confusion. In fact, Verizon gave her a HD DVR when she signed up and she was totally unaware that she had it, let alone what to do with it. Once I informed her of what she had she said she didn't need it and opted to get the less expensive HD set top box instead.


As much as I don't want to agree with you, your are spot on in this post. Most people are morons. TiVo has a huge uphill battle to fight because people just accept whatever garbage their cable/FIOS provider gives them without questioning, when they should be look at TiVo.



atmuscarella said:


> My statement assumed they new enough to be trying to find out what the alternatives where. But I do agree many people know nothing about DVRs.
> 
> I helped some friends move from SD to HD last year (they got a 50" Panasonic Plasma). While both have college degrees and high incomes TV isn't all that import to them. They were still using a VCR a few times a week with analog cable to time shift. It really only took me a few minutes to go through TWC DVRs, TiVo, HTPC, On demand, & streaming video. They still use the VCR for some news type shows and on demand for some HD shows, didn't thing any other option was worth paying for and still get DVDs from Netflix even though the TV is connected to the Internet and has a good Netflix app built in. I honestly couldn't stand watching TV the way they do but it works for them.


What amazes me is that people pay for cable, and yet don't have a good setup to actually enjoy it. I think people are getting HD now, and more people are getting DVRs, although a lot of people don't seem to use them very much. The one that gets me is how many people are using the puny little speakers in the TV. It sounds like complete crap compared to even a modest HTIB with an AVR and 5 or 7 discreet channels.


----------



## Bigg

What also amazes me is how many of the hardcore enthusiasts on AVS have the cableco DVRs, or even worse, U-Verse's horrible service. Who would put U-Verse on a $10k+ projector setup? The only reason I can think of is that they don't watch TV and their spouse/kids watch it elsewhere in the house...


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## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> WMC is a mess. It's one of the few things that I never got to work 100% correctly, although I did use it for a little while. My point is that IF it did work 100%, it would still be a wretched POS because of how bad the UI is.





Bigg said:


> I got MCE up and running just fine.


Your credibility wanes with each new post. 



Bigg said:


> As much as I don't want to agree with you, your are spot on in this post. Most people are morons. TiVo has a huge uphill battle to fight because people just accept whatever garbage their cable/FIOS provider gives them without questioning, when they should be look at TiVo.


So now you're insulting my mother? You really are a piece of work (actually, I think you're a piece of something else for that statement, but I'm trying to keep things civil). I never said people were morons nor was it ever my intention to do so. Saying they are just displays how intolerant you are of things you don't agree with.

The point is that everyone has different priorities in life, and watching or recording TV isn't at the top of the list for most people. Most of us here wouldn't use a cableco DVR simply because we want more from a DVR than it can provide. Others use their cableco's DVR because they just want something to record an occasional show and don't care about all the bells and whistles that come with a Tivo.

My brother-in-law is a perfect example. He's a professional musician and is pretty tech savvy. I've tried to steer him towards using a Tivo instead of his Verizon Motorola DVR for years, but he just isn't interested. It does what he needs it to do so he's perfectly content to keep it. He probably wouldn't get any benefit from owning a Tivo so I no longer press the issue. I certainly don't think he's a moron because of it.

We get the fact that you think WMC is a POS. Repeating it only indicates you are desperately trying to convince yourself that this is somehow a fact and not just your opinion, which is all it is. It's starting to be pretty clear who the real moron is here.


----------



## HarperVision

mr.unnatural said:


> They must be friends of Bigg.


At least they're not friends of Carlotta!


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> As much as I don't want to agree with you, your are spot on in this post. Most people are morons. TiVo has a huge uphill battle to fight because people just accept whatever garbage their cable/FIOS provider gives them without questioning, when they should be look at TiVo.
> 
> What amazes me is that people pay for cable, and yet don't have a good setup to actually enjoy it. I think people are getting HD now, and more people are getting DVRs, although a lot of people don't seem to use them very much. The one that gets me is how many people are using the puny little speakers in the TV. It sounds like complete crap compared to even a modest HTIB with an AVR and 5 or 7 discreet channels.


There are *not* many people that are* morons*, just people that have different lives and don't watch much TV and don't spend time looking at all the options when it come to say the DVR, if somebody (a moron I guess) has no place to see and use a TiVo and wants to "TiVo" programs most cable co.s will take care of him, with on sight (free) service, something TiVo can't do. The people that are on this forum are not the average person as most do have a TiVo.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> So now you're insulting my mother? You really are a piece of work (actually, I think you're a piece of something else for that statement, but I'm trying to keep things civil). I never said people were morons nor was it ever my intention to do so. Saying they are just displays how intolerant you are of things you don't agree with.
> 
> The point is that everyone has different priorities in life, and watching or recording TV isn't at the top of the list for most people. Most of us here wouldn't use a cableco DVR simply because we want more from a DVR than it can provide. Others use their cableco's DVR because they just want something to record an occasional show and don't care about all the bells and whistles that come with a Tivo.
> 
> My brother-in-law is a perfect example. He's a professional musician and is pretty tech savvy. I've tried to steer him towards using a Tivo instead of his Verizon Motorola DVR for years, but he just isn't interested. It does what he needs it to do so he's perfectly content to keep it. He probably wouldn't get any benefit from owning a Tivo so I no longer press the issue. I certainly don't think he's a moron because of it.
> 
> We get the fact that you think WMC is a POS. Repeating it only indicates you are desperately trying to convince yourself that this is somehow a fact and not just your opinion, which is all it is. It's starting to be pretty clear who the real moron is here.


TiVo is cheaper and better. The only argument against TiVo would be that it doesn't support VOD in many markets/providers.

It's a clear fact. I've outlined it before it great detail. The UI is bad. Some people will put up with a bad UI for the hardware and software extensibility, but I didn't find that convincing at a time when TiVo was rolling out TiVo Minis that now work with my XL4. The case is ever tougher to make with the Roamio Pro and Minis.



lessd said:


> There are *not* many people that are* morons*, just people that have different lives and don't watch much TV and don't spend time looking at all the options when it come to say the DVR, if somebody (a moron I guess) has no place to see and use a TiVo and wants to "TiVo" programs most cable co.s will take care of him, with on sight (free) service, something TiVo can't do. The people that are on this forum are not the average person as most do have a TiVo.


People who don't at least consider the costs and benefits of all the options are morons. And that's why the cable companies continue to make a ton of money off of DVRs that suck. It's like people who sign a contract with last year's cell phone... another really stupid move. They're saving <10% of it's TCO for something that's far less capable. Although it seems people are wising up to that one, as the iPhone 5c sales suck compared to the 5s.

EDIT: Combine posts


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## yokito

Bigg said:


> .It's a clear fact. I've outlined it before it great detail. The UI is bad. Some people will put up with a bad UI for the hardware and software extensibility, but I didn't find that convincing at a time when TiVo was rolling out TiVo Minis that now work with my XL4. The case is ever tougher to make with the Roamio Pro and Minis.


It's a troll. Stop feeding it.


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## cncb

Bigg said:


> TiVo is cheaper and better.


Sorry to burst your bubble but the Tivo UI is atrocious. It is because I said so. I am one of the leading UI design experts because I've used a few cell phones before and my Grandma says I have an eye for these things.


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## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> TiVo is cheaper and better. The only argument against TiVo would be that it doesn't support VOD in many markets/providers.


Once again, your opinion and nothing more. Comparing a basic 2 or 4-tuner Tivo with lifetime to a HTPC may be slightly cheaper for the Tivo. It's when you go beyond what a basic Tivo offers that a HTPC wins the price war. This comparison has been hashed out numerous times in these forums.

No third party DVR or HTPC will get you VOD from any provider so it's a completely moot point.



> It's a clear fact. I've outlined it before it great detail. The UI is bad. Some people will put up with a bad UI for the hardware and software extensibility, but I didn't find that convincing at a time when TiVo was rolling out TiVo Minis that now work with my XL4. The case is ever tougher to make with the Roamio Pro and Minis.


It's neither clear nor is it a fact. You've ranted about it in great detail, but that's all. Talking about it until you're blue in the face doesn't somehow make it a fact. Face it, everyone doesn't agree with your opinion about the WMC UI (and again, it is nothing more than your opinion and definitely not a fact). If you look back at every post you've placed on this topic in this thread and several others you'd realize that not a single person has ever chimed in to support your claim, yet many have echoed my sentiment. Learn to quit while you're behind.



> People who don't at least consider the costs and benefits of all the options are morons. And that's why the cable companies continue to make a ton of money off of DVRs that suck. It's like people who sign a contract with last year's cell phone... another really stupid move. They're saving <10% of it's TCO for something that's far less capable. Although it seems people are wising up to that one, as the iPhone 5c sales suck compared to the 5s.


Wow, I guess it just plain sucks for anybody that isn't you or at least shares your opinion. Frankly, I'm elated that I don't share your opinion because you're just another self-righteous A-hole that thinks anyone that doesn't agree with you is a moron. I don't think I could live in a world full of Biggs. I guess we can consider ourselves lucky that there's only one of you. 



yokito said:


> It's a troll. Stop feeding it.


What can I say. I'm a compassionate guy. Even trolls gotta eat.


----------



## Bigg

If you had bothered to read my post and the quote, I was referring to TiVo vs. a cable company DVR. TiVo isn't any cheaper than an MCE PC, in fact they are just about the same. The cable company DVR and TiVo are typically the same price around 30-40 months, so if you average out over 4-5 years, TiVo is a lot cheaper.

Well, anyone who claims MCE has an interface that's as good or better than TiVo certainly needs their head examined. And the remote. The peanut is WAY better than crappy MCE remotes.

So people should be blind to the options and not make informed decisions? How can an uninformed decision possibly be better than an informed decision? That's completely illogical.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> If you had bothered to read my post and the quote, I was referring to TiVo vs. a cable company DVR. TiVo isn't any cheaper than an MCE PC, in fact they are just about the same. The cable company DVR and TiVo are typically the same price around 30-40 months, so if you average out over 4-5 years, TiVo is a lot cheaper.


We weren't discussing cableco DVRs since we were talking about WMC in general. Tivo with lifetime will definitely be cheaper than the cableco DVR over the long haul. However, you have to factor in the cost of renting the cablecard since that's included in the DVR rental fee. Just about every provider has different fees for cablecards so you'd have to check with your local provider to make the informed comparison.



> Well, anyone who claims MCE has an interface that's as good or better than TiVo certainly needs their head examined. And the remote. The peanut is WAY better than crappy MCE remotes.


Anyone that claims A is better than B without providing any relevant data or proof is just blowing smoke. You haven't provided a single reference or link to back up any of the claims you've made. You can't provide them because they don't exist. Whether one UI is better than another is purely subjective and just a matter of personal preference.

When designing a UI you have to ask yourself several questions. Does it allow the user a simple and easy to understand interface to access the features he needs? Are all of the necessary features accessible? If so, then the UI has met the design criteria. I've simplified it a bit for my target audience, but I think you can understand what I'm saying. The WMC UI does what it was designed to do. It may not be as pretty as a Tivo UI, but it is functional and easy to navigate. Tivo has modified their UI with each new platform to where I had problems finding some of the menu items I needed. I'm all for improvement, but change just for the sake of change is no improvement at all.



> So people should be blind to the options and not make informed decisions? How can an uninformed decision possibly be better than an informed decision? That's completely illogical.


Making informed decisions based on fact is definitely the way to go. Making decisions based on the ravings of a madman is completely idiotic.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> Making informed decisions based on fact is definitely the way to go. Making decisions based on the ravings of a madman is completely idiotic.


And sometimes some people don't have the time to spend making a decision on the facts, and money is no problem so they may ask a friend or the cable co and not research the facts at all, and they may not be morons at all.


----------



## slowbiscuit

And the circular arguments from troll-feeding continue...


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> We weren't discussing cableco DVRs since we were talking about WMC in general. Tivo with lifetime will definitely be cheaper than the cableco DVR over the long haul. However, you have to factor in the cost of renting the cablecard since that's included in the DVR rental fee. Just about every provider has different fees for cablecards so you'd have to check with your local provider to make the informed comparison.
> 
> Anyone that claims A is better than B without providing any relevant data or proof is just blowing smoke. You haven't provided a single reference or link to back up any of the claims you've made. You can't provide them because they don't exist. Whether one UI is better than another is purely subjective and just a matter of personal preference.
> 
> When designing a UI you have to ask yourself several questions. Does it allow the user a simple and easy to understand interface to access the features he needs? Are all of the necessary features accessible? If so, then the UI has met the design criteria. I've simplified it a bit for my target audience, but I think you can understand what I'm saying. The WMC UI does what it was designed to do. It may not be as pretty as a Tivo UI, but it is functional and easy to navigate. Tivo has modified their UI with each new platform to where I had problems finding some of the menu items I needed. I'm all for improvement, but change just for the sake of change is no improvement at all.
> 
> Making informed decisions based on fact is definitely the way to go. Making decisions based on the ravings of a madman is completely idiotic.


The post I was responding to clearly was talking about CableCo DVRs and how people are too lazy/stupid to look at the alternatives.

The first CableCard is free with the service. If you have more than one CableCard, then that's a factor, but with TiVo Roamio, you only need one.

It's just obvious. The MCE interface doesn't make any sense. It was obviously made by computer programmers who were used to making desktop software and who have no clue how a DVR is supposed to work or how anyone would use it.



lessd said:


> And sometimes some people don't have the time to spend making a decision on the facts, and money is no problem so they may ask a friend or the cable co and not research the facts at all, and they may not be morons at all.


Going to an obviously biased party (the CableCo) is a really dumb way to make a decision about a DVR.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> The post I was responding to clearly was talking about CableCo DVRs and how people are too lazy/stupid to look at the alternatives.


Calling people lazy or stupid just because they don't share the same philosophy as you is just plain arrogant.



> The first CableCard is free with the service. If you have more than one CableCard, then that's a factor, but with TiVo Roamio, you only need one.


The first cablecard is not free with every provider, which you'd know if actually read any pertinent posts here. AFAIK, only Comcast gives you the first card for free, and that's only in certain markets. Verizon charges me for every cablecard they provide. I don't mind because I'll take Verizon over Comcrap any day of the week.



> It's just obvious. The MCE interface doesn't make any sense. It was obviously made by computer programmers who were used to making desktop software and who have no clue how a DVR is supposed to work or how anyone would use it.


Well, let's see. I've been using WMC since Windows 7 came out and I think it works pretty darn well as a DVR. The UI makes perfect sense to me and it just plain works. It's easy to navigate and works reliably well as a DVR, which is all anyone can ask. Obviously, it didn't work for you so we have to listen to you whine incessantly about it. To each his own. You certainly have the right to dislike the WMC UI, but quit trying to sell us BS that it's bad for everyone because we're just not buying it.

Microsoft also designed the UltimateTV DVR for DirecTV and the UI was far superior to a Tivo, IMHO (you'll notice that I stated this as my opinion and not fact ). I also preferred the UI on the ReplayTV to that of a Tivo back in the early days.



> Going to an obviously biased party (the CableCo) is a really dumb way to make a decision about a DVR.


Uninformed people make decisions based on the information they have at hand. Getting a Tivo vs. a cableco DVR may seem like the obvious choice to you because you already know about Tivos. The vast majority of the population doesn't know any better. I'm just amazed at how completely clueless you are about this fact. Just because someone doesn't know everything that you do you call them lazy or stupid. What a really great guy you are. (NOT!!!).

OK mods. I think this thread has gone way beyond the original topic so how about we close it? I've had about all I can stomach from Mr. Bigg. :down::down::down:


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Calling people lazy or stupid just because they don't share the same philosophy as you is just plain arrogant.
> 
> The first cablecard is not free with every provider, which you'd know if actually read any pertinent posts here. AFAIK, only Comcast gives you the first card for free, and that's only in certain markets. Verizon charges me for every cablecard they provide. I don't mind because I'll take Verizon over Comcrap any day of the week.
> 
> Well, let's see. I've been using WMC since Windows 7 came out and I think it works pretty darn well as a DVR. The UI makes perfect sense to me and it just plain works. It's easy to navigate and works reliably well as a DVR, which is all anyone can ask. Obviously, it didn't work for you so we have to listen to you whine incessantly about it. To each his own. You certainly have the right to dislike the WMC UI, but quit trying to sell us BS that it's bad for everyone because we're just not buying it.
> 
> Microsoft also designed the UltimateTV DVR for DirecTV and the UI was far superior to a Tivo, IMHO (you'll notice that I stated this as my opinion and not fact ). I also preferred the UI on the ReplayTV to that of a Tivo back in the early days.
> 
> Uninformed people make decisions based on the information they have at hand. Getting a Tivo vs. a cableco DVR may seem like the obvious choice to you because you already know about Tivos. The vast majority of the population doesn't know any better. I'm just amazed at how completely clueless you are about this fact. Just because someone doesn't know everything that you do you call them lazy or stupid. What a really great guy you are. (NOT!!!).
> 
> OK mods. I think this thread has gone way beyond the original topic so how about we close it? I've had about all I can stomach from Mr. Bigg. :down::down::down:


If they're charging you for the CableCard, then they have to give you a credit if you don't have any equipment- that's the law. If that's the case, the charges will wash out.

You are so full of crap. If you want to use MCE and put up with it's crappy interface because you can build a DVR with 16 tuners and 20TB of storage, fine, but just say so.

I've never used UltimateTV, so I don't know what it's interface was like.

A consumer should be informed, and research their options. If they don't know about TiVo, they obviously didn't do that. That, and TiVo advertises on national TV, so it's not like people don't know about them. They're just too lazy to do anything other than accept the garbage that Comcast is ripping them off for.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Rather than go through another long diatribe about why you're full of it, Bigg, I'm going to give you an opportunity to state your case. You claim that the WMC UI is crappy, but you haven't stated what's so crappy about it. Give us a list of everything you find wrong about it and why Tivo's interface is far superior. Otherwise, just shut the hell up and stop bothering the grownups.

Fair enough?


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> Going to an obviously biased party (the CableCo) is a really dumb way to make a decision about a DVR.


God!!, do I have a lot of really dumb friends, but guess what, when one of these dumb friends has any problem with their cable co DVR, guess who they don't call...me, the friends that have TiVos call me, so I want all my friends that want a DVR to get the cable co one as I don't want to have any more free TiVo service calls then I now have.


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## Coffee

They may have competition from pre-existing technology.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/how-to-tech/how-to-build-dvr.htm


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Rather than go through another long diatribe about why you're full of it, Bigg, I'm going to give you an opportunity to state your case. You claim that the WMC UI is crappy, but you haven't stated what's so crappy about it. Give us a list of everything you find wrong about it and why Tivo's interface is far superior. Otherwise, just shut the hell up and stop bothering the grownups.
> 
> Fair enough?


This thread describes it in detail, with far more detail than what I can remember now:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4466


----------



## Bigg

lessd said:


> God!!, do I have a lot of really dumb friends, but guess what, when one of these dumb friends has any problem with their cable co DVR, guess who they don't call...me, the friends that have TiVos call me, so I want all my friends that want a DVR to get the cable co one as I don't want to have any more free TiVo service calls then I now have.


Except TiVo is super easy to use and fix. Unlikely being on the phone for hours with incompetent CSRs from Comcast.



Coffee said:


> They may have competition from pre-existing technology.
> 
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/how-to-tech/how-to-build-dvr.htm


We've already covered MCE, and nothing else fully integrates with CableCard.


----------



## lessd

Bigg said:


> Except TiVo is super easy to use and fix. Unlikely being on the phone for hours with incompetent CSRs from Comcast.


For you and me and most on this forum, but most people in the USA could not fix a TiVo.
Comcast in CT answers the phone fast and has a 2 hour service window if needed.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> This thread describes it in detail, with far more detail than what I can remember now:
> 
> http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4466


I'm reading the thread and so far it's more of the same ranting you posted here.

I don't have a problem with recording repeats, but then I tend to screen my upcoming recording list on a daily basis and weed out extraneous things I don't want out of sheer habit. It never takes me more than a minute or so. If I leave them alone they'll eventually weed themselves out unless the guide data never gets updated for whatever reason. I've found that recordings are scheduled as soon as the preliminary guide data appears. However, the specific information about that particular episode gets filled out much closer to the actual air date so the list tends to get filled with a lot of repeats because there is nothing in the guide data that differentiates the individual episodes initially. This is an issue with Zap2it and not WMC. OTOH, I do see many reruns that do specify in which season they originally aired, although the episode number is missing. I personally use epguides.com to find out the missing episode information if I feel the need. If it's the current season and I've only chosen to record new episodes then the next episode that gets recorded is pretty much guaranteed to be the latest one. The only time I actually need the specific episode number is if I happen to be archiving a series or I'm trying to see how many episodes are left in the current season.

I can't recall if I ever saw season and episode information on any Tivo I've owned so the lack of it never bothered me. Again, this is a Zap2it issue and has nothing to do with WMC. WMC can only display what Zap2it provides. You're pointing the finger at the wrong source.

I have commercial skipping working quite well on my HTPC. It's not 100% perfect, but it works pretty well. I've found several tutorials on setting it up and there's even a way to fine tune it for each individual channel. There's always the 30-second skip available on any WMC remote in case the commercial doesn't get mapped properly.

I have a universal remote (Harmony One) and it works great for controlling my TV, preamp/processor, and HTPC. The Harmony remotes are quite simple to configure for use with a Media Center PC. If you're using more than one remote to control your home theater setup with WMC then you need to go back to the drawing board because it ain't that hard (at least not for the rest of us).

I won't claim that I understood every functional feature of WMC when I first used it, but it wasn't all that hard to figure out. The basic stuff was pretty straightforward, but there are more advanced features that require a bit of training to understand. There are lots of online resources available to help you through the process if you get stuck.

After reading your post I can't say for sure what it was you were expecting from WMC, but clearly you had issues understanding how to use it. That basically boils down to a personal problem in that you just didn't take the time to understand what you were using. I couldn't help but notice that the responses you received at TGB were pretty much the same as what you're getting here. You clearly have no patience for anything that doesn't live up to your unrealistic expectations. I have yet to come across a UI that is 100% intuitive and didn't require any sort of tutorials to learn. I've had to reference the Tivo Users Manual on more than one occasion to find some feature in the menu structure that wasn't intuitively obvious.

FWIW, pointing to another thread that contained your original rant was not what I was looking for. I was hoping you could provide some sort of concrete evidence that backed up your claims about WMC's supposed inferiority to a Tivo. The thing is, we both know you can't because it simply doesn't exist. The only thing you have to back up your claims is your opinion and nothing more.

The bottom line is that you just don't like WMC. We get that. But guess what? Nobody else that has actually learned how to use WMC cares about your opinion because we all know it's a total crock.

We have all considered the source and found it to be lacking. 

Use WMC or don't use WMC, we really don't care. You aren't going to convert anyone based on your opinion, especially the way you've presented it. Just quit *****ing about it and get a life.


----------



## mr.unnatural

lessd said:


> For you and me and most on this forum, but most people in the USA could not fix a TiVo.


Including Tivo.  If your Tivo malfunctions they send you a refurbished unit, which generally consists of a used Tivo platform with a re-certified hard drive. I'd be surprised if Tivo actually repairs any of their own hardware or even contracts anyone else to do it for them. They might swap out a power supply, but I'd be surprised if they even have the capability of repairing a Tivo mainboard. More likely they either swap it out or junk the unit altogether.


----------



## lessd

mr.unnatural said:


> Including Tivo.  If your Tivo malfunctions they send you a refurbished unit, which generally consists of a used Tivo platform with a re-certified hard drive. I'd be surprised if Tivo actually repairs any of their own hardware or even contracts anyone else to do it for them. They might swap out a power supply, but I'd be surprised if they even have the capability of repairing a Tivo mainboard. More likely they either swap it out or junk the unit altogether.


Your correct but most TiVo problems are the hard drive and with the Roamio that very easy to fix for people on this forum, but for the general population, they would just call TiVo for a replacement unit, or call a TiVo friend to replace the hard drive.


----------



## shwru980r

Walmart has this DVR. This caught my eye because it has 428 reviews on the Walmart site and 91% recommend it. It's only one digital tuner and works like a DVR.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-...ith-Bonus-Ematic-HDMI-1080p-Cable-6/26934923#


----------



## mr.unnatural

shwru980r said:


> Walmart has this DVR. This caught my eye because it has 428 reviews on the Walmart site and 91% recommend it. It's only one digital tuner and works like a DVR.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-...ith-Bonus-Ematic-HDMI-1080p-Cable-6/26934923#


Getting high praise from Walmartians doesn't really give me a warm fuzzy about a product. Since it's likely a standard DVD recorder it will only record HD content in 720x480 resolution. I assume that this is an ATSC/QAM tuner as I saw no mention of anything to do with cablecards. The DVD recorder part holds no interest for me, but others may like it. I've completely gotten away from any type of physical storage media and now put everything on my server.

Having only a single tuner in a DVR these days just isn't worthwhile. You can either watch or record live TV, but not both at the same time. Dual tuners is an absolute minimum to be worthy of consideration. Still, I can see where it might be appealing for the occasional recording.


----------



## shwru980r

mr.unnatural said:


> Getting high praise from Walmartians doesn't really give me a warm fuzzy about a product. Since it's likely a standard DVD recorder it will only record HD content in 720x480 resolution. I assume that this is an ATSC/QAM tuner as I saw no mention of anything to do with cablecards. The DVD recorder part holds no interest for me, but others may like it. I've completely gotten away from any type of physical storage media and now put everything on my server.
> 
> Having only a single tuner in a DVR these days just isn't worthwhile. You can either watch or record live TV, but not both at the same time. Dual tuners is an absolute minimum to be worthy of consideration. Still, I can see where it might be appealing for the occasional recording.





mr.unnatural said:


> Getting high praise from Walmartians doesn't really give me a warm fuzzy about a product.


Most people only post to complain. It's unusual to see such a high volume of reviews with such a high positive percentage.



mr.unnatural said:


> Since it's likely a standard DVD recorder it will only record HD content in 720x480 resolution. I assume that this is an ATSC/QAM tuner as I saw no mention of anything to do with cablecards.


Yes, it seems to be a single tuner OTA DVR with VCR type programming with no guide information.



mr.unnatural said:


> The DVD recorder part holds no interest for me, but others may like it. I've completely gotten away from any type of physical storage media and now put everything on my server.


Yes, they should have dropped the DVD to lower the cost. It's too expensive.



mr.unnatural said:


> Having only a single tuner in a DVR these days just isn't worthwhile. You can either watch or record live TV, but not both at the same time. Dual tuners is an absolute minimum to be worthy of consideration. Still, I can see where it might be appealing for the occasional recording.


No. You would be able to watch live programming while recording through your TV's built in digital tuner. So you can record and watch live TV at the same time. So you could have this DVR recording all the time.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm reading the thread and so far it's more of the same ranting you posted here.
> 
> I don't have a problem with recording repeats, but then I tend to screen my upcoming recording list on a daily basis and weed out extraneous things I don't want out of sheer habit. It never takes me more than a minute or so. If I leave them alone they'll eventually weed themselves out unless the guide data never gets updated for whatever reason. I've found that recordings are scheduled as soon as the preliminary guide data appears. However, the specific information about that particular episode gets filled out much closer to the actual air date so the list tends to get filled with a lot of repeats because there is nothing in the guide data that differentiates the individual episodes initially. This is an issue with Zap2it and not WMC. OTOH, I do see many reruns that do specify in which season they originally aired, although the episode number is missing. I personally use epguides.com to find out the missing episode information if I feel the need. If it's the current season and I've only chosen to record new episodes then the next episode that gets recorded is pretty much guaranteed to be the latest one. The only time I actually need the specific episode number is if I happen to be archiving a series or I'm trying to see how many episodes are left in the current season.
> 
> I can't recall if I ever saw season and episode information on any Tivo I've owned so the lack of it never bothered me. Again, this is a Zap2it issue and has nothing to do with WMC. WMC can only display what Zap2it provides. You're pointing the finger at the wrong source.
> 
> I have commercial skipping working quite well on my HTPC. It's not 100% perfect, but it works pretty well. I've found several tutorials on setting it up and there's even a way to fine tune it for each individual channel. There's always the 30-second skip available on any WMC remote in case the commercial doesn't get mapped properly.
> 
> I have a universal remote (Harmony One) and it works great for controlling my TV, preamp/processor, and HTPC. The Harmony remotes are quite simple to configure for use with a Media Center PC. If you're using more than one remote to control your home theater setup with WMC then you need to go back to the drawing board because it ain't that hard (at least not for the rest of us).
> 
> I won't claim that I understood every functional feature of WMC when I first used it, but it wasn't all that hard to figure out. The basic stuff was pretty straightforward, but there are more advanced features that require a bit of training to understand. There are lots of online resources available to help you through the process if you get stuck.
> 
> After reading your post I can't say for sure what it was you were expecting from WMC, but clearly you had issues understanding how to use it. That basically boils down to a personal problem in that you just didn't take the time to understand what you were using. I couldn't help but notice that the responses you received at TGB were pretty much the same as what you're getting here. You clearly have no patience for anything that doesn't live up to your unrealistic expectations. I have yet to come across a UI that is 100% intuitive and didn't require any sort of tutorials to learn. I've had to reference the Tivo Users Manual on more than one occasion to find some feature in the menu structure that wasn't intuitively obvious.
> 
> FWIW, pointing to another thread that contained your original rant was not what I was looking for. I was hoping you could provide some sort of concrete evidence that backed up your claims about WMC's supposed inferiority to a Tivo. The thing is, we both know you can't because it simply doesn't exist. The only thing you have to back up your claims is your opinion and nothing more.
> 
> The bottom line is that you just don't like WMC. We get that. But guess what? Nobody else that has actually learned how to use WMC cares about your opinion because we all know it's a total crock.
> 
> We have all considered the source and found it to be lacking.
> 
> Use WMC or don't use WMC, we really don't care. You aren't going to convert anyone based on your opinion, especially the way you've presented it. Just quit *****ing about it and get a life.


It's not ranting, it's observing and relaying that through writing. Very different from just complaining. The post I linked to was very well written, I obviously put some time into it at the time.

I don't care who isn't providing complete guide data, it reflects very poorly on MCE. TiVo's guide data has gone down hill a bit, but it's nowhere as bad as MCE's.

The commercial skipping software setup was a disaster. It worked intermittently once or twice. I hope that DISH paves the way for DVRs to integrate this functionality, as it would be very useful- if it actually worked.

The Peanut is way better than anything I could find for MCE. The MCE remotes are clunky and don't feel right in the hand, and can't control the AVR and TV. The Peanut can turn everything on and off. I have no interest in a universal remote, each devices comes with a remote that has all of the right buttons for that device, a universal remote will never be as good as the individual remotes.

The interface is idiotic. It makes no sense. I did figure it out after playing with it a bit, but it's definitely not user-intuitive like TiVo.

Unrealistic expectations? What are you talking about? The Comcast DVR offers basic, easy to use functionality that's a lot easier to learn and use than MCE. That's PATHETIC, as that thing is a POS. Is it unrealistic to expect an interface that MAKES SENSE? I'm sorry if I have standards here, but MCE doesn't just have a few little things here and there that aren't as good as TiVo, it's _two orders of magnitude_ not as good as a TiVo.

Some of TiVo's menus don't really make total sense, and they have gotten a lot more convoluted since I started using TiVo on Software version 4, IIRC, on the Series 2, BUT TiVo is still user-intuitive, and MCE really isn't. Anyone can pick up the peanut and nearly instantly know how to use it. That's now more important than ever, since a few months after trying MCE and then moving to TiVo I moved into a house with roommates, and I don't want something that breaks all the time and requires constant support and explanations of how to use it. TiVo is there, it's reliable, it has an excellent interface, and it's 100% user intuitive.

The only way you could even bear using MCE is to lower your expectations significantly from TiVo. There are no two ways about it, MCE's interface is extremely poorly designed, and ill-suited to much of anything. Anyone who is happy with MCE is either willing to put up with garbage software in order to have awesome custom-built hardware, or they've never seen a TiVo and don't know a DVR can be.

I've presented the facts about MCE. You can make ridiculous claims about it, but that's not going to change reality. MCE sucks, and since Microsoft gave up developing it before really finishing it, it's going to suck until it dies. But it's not going to die until at least January, 10, 2023, so it will still be available for those willing to put up with it's awful self for quite a while longer.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I had a response I previously posted but decided to replace because I realized it was a complete waste of time. You have a preconceived notion about WMC that will clearly never change. You also have some preconceived notion that if you ***** about it enough you will miraculously change the minds of everyone that has no issues with WMC into believing that you actually know what you're talking about. Your continued discussions on the matter make it clear to everyone here that it is not the case.

You claim facts but have nothing to show for it but your experience with a single PC setup, and even then your "facts" are nothing more than your personal opinion (and that is an actual fact). This somehow makes you an expert on WMC, at least in your own mind. I have personally configured dozens of WMC PCs that work perfectly fine so I can safely say that I have far more experience than you do when it comes to installing and configuring a WMC PC. I use WMC on a daily basis, as do hundreds, if not thousands, of others, and somehow you know more about it than anyone else. In the grand scheme of things, you are irrelevant. Your futility in using WMC stems from your own inabilities or possibly just bad luck and nothing more. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will find peace. However, I think you are just an angry, bitter person craving attention. There is no other rational explanation for your continued participation in this non-discussion.

Let it go. Nothing will be resolved by further discussion. Continuing this non-debate serves no one.

The bad news is that I fully expect another ***** rebuttal to be posted shortly.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Please stop feeding the troll and this thread will die off.


----------



## CrispyCritter

slowbiscuit said:


> Please stop feeding the troll and this thread will die off.


Why is either one of them a troll???

They are both stubborn and they are both incorrectly arguing from their own personal experience, but the latter applies to most of this forum. Neither is presenting any new convincing evidence in support of their theories. Situation normal for any forum.


----------



## steve614

Yeah, but it's getting old. The same back and forth with nothing new added.

There's no need for it any longer.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Agreed. The entire argument has been ridiculous from the start and I apologize for taking part in it and wasting everyone's time. OTOH, sometimes it's just fun to poke a troll and see what he'll do next. 

Please note that I requested the thread be closed a while ago when it was obviously no longer productive. I admit guilt to prolonging the silliness so I'll stop now.

Now, let's all give thanks for what we have and go stuff our faces with turkey and watch some football. Peace.


----------



## srauly

Meh. I just spotted this thread today (have been thinking about switching back to TiVo after having used WMC for the last couple of years). After reading the first page or two of posts I was excited about replying with my thoughts/experiences, but then I got to the last couple of pages and saw that Bigg thread-crapped all over it. So I shouldn't be keeping this thread alive by replying to it, but I guess I can't help myself.

So, anyway, to answer the original poster's question, TiVo seems to stand alone in terms of an out-of-the-box consumer electronics solution. WMC (Windows Media Center), however, is definitely a viable alternative. I think there are pros/cons to each.

Unlike Bigg, I think the UI for WMC is actually very good. It is a far cry above the standard Comcast DVR UI (though maybe their most recent DVR solution that they're starting to test in some markets is decent. I don't know as I don't have any direct experience with that). Sure, there are a couple of UI things with WMC that when I first switched from my TiVo HD (Series 3) I thought, "Oh, I don't like the way that works...TiVo was better", but there were also aspects to the WMC UI that I thought were superior to how TiVo did things. And the UI was certainly a lot snappier than my TiVo HD (S3) UI (but it sounds like UI responsiveness has been greatly improved with the Roamio line).

One of the things drawing me back to TiVo is the promise of streaming to mobile devices. This was actually one of the reasons I was originally drawn to WMC. At the time, with TiVo, you'd have to first transfer your show *off* of the TiVo and onto a computer (which took time) and then convert the show to a mobile-friendly format (even longer). With WMC, you'd at least skip that first step. Since that time, I've experimented with Plex and other solutions which do a great job of transcoding on-the-fly WMC TV shows, but it only really works (well) on shows that have already completed recording. For shows still-in-progress, it doesn't really work (well). Whereas now (flash-forward nearly 2 years), TiVo with the Stream and Roamio units, can supposedly do exactly that (I'm still curious about how good the picture quality is on this transcoded content viewed on an iPad, etc.).

If the ability to view live TV on your mobile device isn't important to you, I would definitely give WMC a serious look, with one more caveat. It's not a consumer electronics, "take it out of the box and plug it in" experience. You should be fairly technical and actually enjoy tinkering a bit. If that describes you, then by all means look into WMC. I would personally recommend looking into a refurbished Apple Mac Mini with HDHomeRun PRIME as a starting point, hardware-wise. Then, add Windows 7 w/Media Center. Total cost under $700. If you don't care about having a smallish system, you can spend even less by finding another capable PC (maybe you already own one?) or an older Mac Mini. I would recommend getting something with a decently capable CPU so that you can run Plex to do transcoding on-the-fly for mobile devices of pre-recorded TV shows as well as your movie collection. FWIW, I don't personally use a Mac Mini (I have a refurb HP tower w/Intel i7 that I paid about $500 for), but I think the Mac Mini is a beautiful piece of hardware, with lots of built in features, and is competitively priced to any other small PC you'd put together yourself. Plus, if/when you want to switch to something else, it will have a decent resale value.

As I mentioned, I'm looking at the TiVo Roamio line right now. The biggest reason, quite frankly, is because I'm a tech geek and it's been a couple of good years with WMC now, but I'd kind of like to try something new/different, just for a change of pace. I do have very fond memories of TiVo and am interested/excited about the streaming possibilities. I'll add that my WMC computer is showing signs of failure. I'm sure I could resolve that entirely by reformatting/reinstalling Windows 7 (and I might not even need to do anything that drastic). So, that's an added factor, especially since my wife won't be very happy with me if my WMC server bites the dust while I'm out of town on work.

I will agree with Bigg that the TiVo peanut remote was/is a wonderful thing, and I do miss it. But in today's world, can the TiVo be your one and only device? I have an Apple TV, too, and would still need my nettop PC (running XBMC w/PleXBMC) to play my movie rips, so I pretty much have to trade the TiVo remote for a multi-device remote like one of my Logitech Harmony remotes. As great of a design as the TiVo remote is, if it can only control one thing and I have to put it down and pick up a different remote for a different use, then it's a faulty overall solution.


----------



## dlfl

srauly said:


> Meh. I just spotted this thread today (have been thinking about switching back to TiVo after having used WMC for the last couple of years). After reading the first page or two of posts I was excited about replying with my thoughts/experiences, but then I got to the last couple of pages and saw that Bigg thread-crapped all over it. So I shouldn't be keeping this thread alive by replying to it, but I guess I can't help myself.
> 
> So, anyway, to answer the original poster's question, TiVo seems to stand alone in terms of an out-of-the-box consumer electronics solution. WMC (Windows Media Center), however, is definitely a viable alternative. I think there are pros/cons to each.
> 
> Unlike Bigg, I think the UI for WMC is actually very good. It is a far cry above the standard Comcast DVR UI (though maybe their most recent DVR solution that they're starting to test in some markets is decent. I don't know as I don't have any direct experience with that). Sure, there are a couple of UI things with WMC that when I first switched from my TiVo HD (Series 3) I thought, "Oh, I don't like the way that works...TiVo was better", but there were also aspects to the WMC UI that I thought were superior to how TiVo did things. And the UI was certainly a lot snappier than my TiVo HD (S3) UI (but it sounds like UI responsiveness has been greatly improved with the Roamio line).
> 
> One of the things drawing me back to TiVo is the promise of streaming to mobile devices. This was actually one of the reasons I was originally drawn to WMC. At the time, with TiVo, you'd have to first transfer your show *off* of the TiVo and onto a computer (which took time) and then convert the show to a mobile-friendly format (even longer). With WMC, you'd at least skip that first step. Since that time, I've experimented with Plex and other solutions which do a great job of transcoding on-the-fly WMC TV shows, but it only really works (well) on shows that have already completed recording. For shows still-in-progress, it doesn't really work (well). Whereas now (flash-forward nearly 2 years), TiVo with the Stream and Roamio units, can supposedly do exactly that (I'm still curious about how good the picture quality is on this transcoded content viewed on an iPad, etc.).
> 
> If the ability to view live TV on your mobile device isn't important to you, I would definitely give WMC a serious look, with one more caveat. It's not a consumer electronics, "take it out of the box and plug it in" experience. You should be fairly technical and actually enjoy tinkering a bit. If that describes you, then by all means look into WMC. I would personally recommend looking into a refurbished Apple Mac Mini with HDHomeRun PRIME as a starting point, hardware-wise. Then, add Windows 7 w/Media Center. Total cost under $700. If you don't care about having a smallish system, you can spend even less by finding another capable PC (maybe you already own one?) or an older Mac Mini. I would recommend getting something with a decently capable CPU so that you can run Plex to do transcoding on-the-fly for mobile devices of pre-recorded TV shows as well as your movie collection. FWIW, I don't personally use a Mac Mini (I have a refurb HP tower w/Intel i7 that I paid about $500 for), but I think the Mac Mini is a beautiful piece of hardware, with lots of built in features, and is competitively priced to any other small PC you'd put together yourself. Plus, if/when you want to switch to something else, it will have a decent resale value.
> 
> As I mentioned, I'm looking at the TiVo Roamio line right now. The biggest reason, quite frankly, is because I'm a tech geek and it's been a couple of good years with WMC now, but I'd kind of like to try something new/different, just for a change of pace. I do have very fond memories of TiVo and am interested/excited about the streaming possibilities. I'll add that my WMC computer is showing signs of failure. I'm sure I could resolve that entirely by reformatting/reinstalling Windows 7 (and I might not even need to do anything that drastic). So, that's an added factor, especially since my wife won't be very happy with me if my WMC server bites the dust while I'm out of town on work.
> 
> I will agree with Bigg that the TiVo peanut remote was/is a wonderful thing, and I do miss it. But in today's world, can the TiVo be your one and only device? I have an Apple TV, too, and would still need my nettop PC (running XBMC w/PleXBMC) to play my movie rips, so I pretty much have to trade the TiVo remote for a multi-device remote like one of my Logitech Harmony remotes. As great of a design as the TiVo remote is, if it can only control one thing and I have to put it down and pick up a different remote for a different use, then it's a faulty overall solution.


Zzzzz .... zzzzzz. Probably some good info in that verbose treatise if I hadn't dozed off a third of the way through.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I'm curious as to why you'd recommend a Mac mini. I assume you'd have to install Parallels in order to run Windows 7 and Media Center. Macs aren't really the platform of choice for HTPCs. There are countless choices for PC platforms that will work well as a HTPC that are less expensive.

I agree about the Tivo peanut. I understand why so many people love it due to the ergonomic design. Sadly, it is far too limited for controlling multiple components in a home theater system so many of us have to look elsewhere for an all-in-one solution. I think the Harmony remotes are favored more than any other remote for home theater use, but there are other choices as well.


----------



## srauly

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm curious as to why you'd recommend a Mac mini. I assume you'd have to install Parallels in order to run Windows 7 and Media Center. Macs aren't really the platform of choice for HTPCs. There are countless choices for PC platforms that will work well as a HTPC that are less expensive.


You don't need to spend extra on Parallels. If your intention is to use it as a dedicated Windows Media Center server, you just use the built-in Bootcamp capability to install Windows on a separate hard disk partition.

I think the Mac Mini compares favorably to those custom Assassin builds, or a NUC. A NUC, for example, doesn't come with RAM or a hard drive. And like the Mac Mini, you'll need to supply Windows yourself. So once you add all of those pieces in, you're not really saving much money. The Mac Mini even has built-in IR (though, to be honest, I'm not certain how easy it is to make use of that on the Windows side). The base model 2012 Mac Mini will you give you an Intel i5 (yes, it's a notebook version of the i5, but it's probably still faster than the CPU you'll get with a NUC), 4GB of RAM, 500GB hard drive, gigabit ethernet, and HDMI out. $600 new, and cheaper as a refurb. You'll also get Bluetooth and 802.11n, though those features won't do much for you as a Windows Media Center server.

How much money are you going to save if you build your own NUC? $100? And with the Mac Mini, if/when you decide to replace it in the future, you'll get a lot more for it on the used market.

Now, if small size, low power consumption, and a sexy case are not important to you, I would recommend looking for a deal on a refurb / open box HP mini-tower. That's the route I've gone in the past (and what I'm using now). I scored my refurb HP tower with i7 (full desktop version of the i7) for about $500 over a year ago. It came with a 1.5TB drive, HDMI, 8GB of RAM, and a Blu-ray drive. It also came with a dedicated graphics card, but I actually pulled it out to save some watts/heat and with the thought that I might resell it to save a few more bucks, but I never got around to doing that, so it's just sitting in a cabinet somewhere.


----------



## Curt

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm curious as to why you'd recommend a Mac mini. I assume you'd have to install Parallels in order to run Windows 7 and Media Center. Macs aren't really the platform of choice for HTPCs. There are countless choices for PC platforms that will work well as a HTPC that are less expensive.


I'd venture to say because of the small form factor, built-in HDMI and IR. The way I read it is he'd do a native install of Windows (Boot Camp). It's a nice looking device that can be left out to be seen.

I use a Mac mini myself, but not as a HTPC. I use it as my media hub with Apple TVs deployed for content consumption. I looked into extending its functions for live TV recording and streaming but went with TiVo because that had SWMBO approval for ease of use.


----------



## mr.unnatural

If you're looking for something in a small form factor, check out the latest Intel NUC Haswell models, the Gigabyte BRIX, or even the slightly older Intel Sandy Bridge models. These little boxes pack a lot of punch and are only about 4-1/2" x 4-1/2" x 1-1/2" in size. There's virtually no internal space for any type of expansion and you need to use a mSATA SSD with laptop DIMMs. There is a half-size mini-PCI-e slot if you want to add a wireless adapter, but most of them also have a gigabit Lan port, HDMI, and several USB2 or USB3 ports. You'd have to install the OS via an external optical drive or USB flash drive. I'm seriously thinking about getting one to replace my aging Dell Zino HD, but it will probably have to wait until after Christmas.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> I had a response I previously posted but decided to replace because I realized it was a complete waste of time. You have a preconceived notion about WMC that will clearly never change. You also have some preconceived notion that if you ***** about it enough you will miraculously change the minds of everyone that has no issues with WMC into believing that you actually know what you're talking about. Your continued discussions on the matter make it clear to everyone here that it is not the case.
> 
> You claim facts but have nothing to show for it but your experience with a single PC setup, and even then your "facts" are nothing more than your personal opinion (and that is an actual fact). This somehow makes you an expert on WMC, at least in your own mind. I have personally configured dozens of WMC PCs that work perfectly fine so I can safely say that I have far more experience than you do when it comes to installing and configuring a WMC PC. I use WMC on a daily basis, as do hundreds, if not thousands, of others, and somehow you know more about it than anyone else. In the grand scheme of things, you are irrelevant. Your futility in using WMC stems from your own inabilities or possibly just bad luck and nothing more. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will find peace. However, I think you are just an angry, bitter person craving attention. There is no other rational explanation for your continued participation in this non-discussion.
> 
> Let it go. Nothing will be resolved by further discussion. Continuing this non-debate serves no one.
> 
> The bad news is that I fully expect another ***** rebuttal to be posted shortly.


I *had* a preconceived notion that MCE was this amazing product that could do what a TiVo could, but with cheaper, faster, bigger, PC hardware. I *actually* used it, and learned what a disaster it is _in the real world_.



srauly said:


> Meh. I just spotted this thread today (have been thinking about switching back to TiVo after having used WMC for the last couple of years). After reading the first page or two of posts I was excited about replying with my thoughts/experiences, but then I got to the last couple of pages and saw that Bigg thread-crapped all over it. So I shouldn't be keeping this thread alive by replying to it, but I guess I can't help myself.
> 
> So, anyway, to answer the original poster's question, TiVo seems to stand alone in terms of an out-of-the-box consumer electronics solution. WMC (Windows Media Center), however, is definitely a viable alternative. I think there are pros/cons to each.
> 
> Unlike Bigg, I think the UI for WMC is actually very good. It is a far cry above the standard Comcast DVR UI (though maybe their most recent DVR solution that they're starting to test in some markets is decent. I don't know as I don't have any direct experience with that). Sure, there are a couple of UI things with WMC that when I first switched from my TiVo HD (Series 3) I thought, "Oh, I don't like the way that works...TiVo was better", but there were also aspects to the WMC UI that I thought were superior to how TiVo did things. And the UI was certainly a lot snappier than my TiVo HD (S3) UI (but it sounds like UI responsiveness has been greatly improved with the Roamio line).
> 
> One of the things drawing me back to TiVo is the promise of streaming to mobile devices. This was actually one of the reasons I was originally drawn to WMC. At the time, with TiVo, you'd have to first transfer your show *off* of the TiVo and onto a computer (which took time) and then convert the show to a mobile-friendly format (even longer). With WMC, you'd at least skip that first step. Since that time, I've experimented with Plex and other solutions which do a great job of transcoding on-the-fly WMC TV shows, but it only really works (well) on shows that have already completed recording. For shows still-in-progress, it doesn't really work (well). Whereas now (flash-forward nearly 2 years), TiVo with the Stream and Roamio units, can supposedly do exactly that (I'm still curious about how good the picture quality is on this transcoded content viewed on an iPad, etc.).
> 
> If the ability to view live TV on your mobile device isn't important to you, I would definitely give WMC a serious look, with one more caveat. It's not a consumer electronics, "take it out of the box and plug it in" experience. You should be fairly technical and actually enjoy tinkering a bit. If that describes you, then by all means look into WMC. I would personally recommend looking into a refurbished Apple Mac Mini with HDHomeRun PRIME as a starting point, hardware-wise. Then, add Windows 7 w/Media Center. Total cost under $700. If you don't care about having a smallish system, you can spend even less by finding another capable PC (maybe you already own one?) or an older Mac Mini. I would recommend getting something with a decently capable CPU so that you can run Plex to do transcoding on-the-fly for mobile devices of pre-recorded TV shows as well as your movie collection. FWIW, I don't personally use a Mac Mini (I have a refurb HP tower w/Intel i7 that I paid about $500 for), but I think the Mac Mini is a beautiful piece of hardware, with lots of built in features, and is competitively priced to any other small PC you'd put together yourself. Plus, if/when you want to switch to something else, it will have a decent resale value.
> 
> As I mentioned, I'm looking at the TiVo Roamio line right now. The biggest reason, quite frankly, is because I'm a tech geek and it's been a couple of good years with WMC now, but I'd kind of like to try something new/different, just for a change of pace. I do have very fond memories of TiVo and am interested/excited about the streaming possibilities. I'll add that my WMC computer is showing signs of failure. I'm sure I could resolve that entirely by reformatting/reinstalling Windows 7 (and I might not even need to do anything that drastic). So, that's an added factor, especially since my wife won't be very happy with me if my WMC server bites the dust while I'm out of town on work.
> 
> I will agree with Bigg that the TiVo peanut remote was/is a wonderful thing, and I do miss it. But in today's world, can the TiVo be your one and only device? I have an Apple TV, too, and would still need my nettop PC (running XBMC w/PleXBMC) to play my movie rips, so I pretty much have to trade the TiVo remote for a multi-device remote like one of my Logitech Harmony remotes. As great of a design as the TiVo remote is, if it can only control one thing and I have to put it down and pick up a different remote for a different use, then it's a faulty overall solution.


I don't know what you're smoking, but MCE's interface misses some of the most basic elements of a DVR interface, which even the old battleship boxes on Comcast can do correctly (albeit with few tuners, tiny hard drives, and no multi-room).

It's true that MCE had better responsiveness for years, but what good is the responsiveness in an interface that makes no sense in the first place? TiVo's sluggish interface at least makes sense. And now with the Roamios, you can have your cake and eat it too.

You absolutely need multiple devices. I have a TiVo, Roku, Apple TV, BD player, VCR, HTPC, AVR, DVDO EDGE, Wii, GCN, N64, and XBOX. That doesn't mean you need a universal remote though. Just use the remote for each device. And since the TV normally will be on the input for TiVo, you can use the Peanut to turn the TV and AVR on and off normally. And also, while you're watching TV, the peanut can handle the AVR's volume, so it's pretty friendly to use. The best solution is the original OEM remote for each device. I have about 10, I just use the right one for the right job.

The idea of building an HTPC for DVR functions is great in theory, the problem is, it needs some halfway decent software to make it a reality, and right now, and for the foreseeable future, there is no decent software available that's fully CableCard compatible. So TiVo it is.


----------



## srauly

You're probably the only person I've ever heard of who has actually used the WMC user interface for an extended time and found it to be an awful or confusing. And reading through this thread and the one you linked to, it seems to be more of the same from you: You frequently make definitive statements that the WMC UI is awful but provide little to no examples/specifics.

You did list one UI frustration that I agree with: The lack of a simple list view for all of your shows. Instead, everything is tiled to some degree. I don't agree with you that it's "confusing" to use, but do agree that it's inefficient to use. Unfortunately, those of us who prefer a list view seem to be in the minority these days, as just about everyone is using a tiled view now. Netflix, Apple TV, and many more. You have to move left/right/up/down to get to what you want.

Kudos to XBMC for giving you the choice of several different types of views.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Funny, I thought I heard a noise. Nah, it just turned out to be more static.


----------



## mr.unnatural

srauly said:


> You did list one UI frustration that I agree with: The lack of a simple list view for all of your shows.


You can most definitely display your recordings as a list in WMC. Select a show in the recorded tv screen and press the Info button on your remote. Scroll down the displayed list of options and select "View List." You can then select how you want the list displayed by selecting on of the options across the top of the screen. If you want to revert back to the large icons then do the same thing, but select "View Large" from the option list.


----------



## srauly

mr.unnatural said:


> You can most definitely display your recordings as a list in WMC. Select a show in the recorded tv screen and press the Info button on your remote. Scroll down the displayed list of options and select "View List." You can then select how you want the list displayed by selecting on of the options across the top of the screen. If you want to revert back to the large icons then do the same thing, but select "View Large" from the option list.


The "View List" mode is how I have mine permanently set. But it's poorly named, because it's not a single vertical list. It's a 5x2 grid (5 rows, 2 columns visible on screen). The "View Large" mode is a single row mode where you scroll right/left only.

What I (and presumably Biggs) prefer is a single-column list where you only scroll up/down. In the XBMC software, for instance, they refer to that as "list mode". And I think that's how the TiVo's "My Shows" screen works.


----------



## mr.unnatural

I would also prefer a vertical scrolling list, but obviously the developers had other notions. I find it to be an extremely minor annoyance at best and certainly nothing to make WMC flame-worthy. I tend to try and keep up with my recorded shows so the list never gets above five or six columns of recordings, keeping navigation rather simple. I generally list the shows in chronological order in which they were recorded so I usually view the oldest first.


----------



## srauly

mr.unnatural said:


> I find it to be an extremely minor annoyance at best and certainly nothing to make WMC flame-worthy.


I don't disagree with you on that.


----------



## Bigg

srauly said:


> You're probably the only person I've ever heard of who has actually used the WMC user interface for an extended time and found it to be an awful or confusing. And reading through this thread and the one you linked to, it seems to be more of the same from you: You frequently make definitive statements that the WMC UI is awful but provide little to no examples/specifics.
> 
> You did list one UI frustration that I agree with: The lack of a simple list view for all of your shows. Instead, everything is tiled to some degree. I don't agree with you that it's "confusing" to use, but do agree that it's inefficient to use. Unfortunately, those of us who prefer a list view seem to be in the minority these days, as just about everyone is using a tiled view now. Netflix, Apple TV, and many more. You have to move left/right/up/down to get to what you want.
> 
> Kudos to XBMC for giving you the choice of several different types of views.


I went into many specifics. Like the lack of a list view, the byzantine settings menu (ok TiVo's settings menu needs help, but it's still worlds better than MCE's), the fact that the DVR functionality is only one menu item among many in the main menu filled with other garbage, lack of SxxEyy episode numbering, etc. It's just a mess every way around.



srauly said:


> The "View List" mode is how I have mine permanently set. But it's poorly named, because it's not a single vertical list. It's a 5x2 grid (5 rows, 2 columns visible on screen). The "View Large" mode is a single row mode where you scroll right/left only.
> 
> What I (and presumably Biggs) prefer is a single-column list where you only scroll up/down. In the XBMC software, for instance, they refer to that as "list mode". And I think that's how the TiVo's "My Shows" screen works.


Exactly. It isn't a list. And it gives you very little feedback as to where the beginning and end of it is. It's very visually appealing, but falls apart if you have more than a dozen or two shows. I can't even imagine it with close to a terabyte of stuff like my TiVo currently has on it!

Yeah, the NPL (or "My Shows" as they call it now) is just a straight up linear list by date, with folders based on the newest show in the folder, and since you can channel up/down to move through it, even on a laggy box, you can move through the whole thing with ease.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> Exactly. It isn't a list. And it gives you very little feedback as to where the beginning and end of it is.


Considering you can order the list either by date recorded, alphabetically by title, or by original air date, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where it begins at a quick glance. It also shows exactly where the program is in the list in the lower right corner when the show title is highlighted (i.e., 1|27, etc.). That's more feedback than the recording list in a Tivo provides, IIRC. Like I said, it's a minor annoyance at best. I've gotten used to it so I pay it no mind.


----------



## dadrepus

Has anybody mention Homeworks? Is is a converter for old tvs but also has a tuner and PVR features you can use for ANY TV. And with updated software works with unencrypted cable as well as over the air HD channels. It had hdmi out as well. A Tvguide type info is also offered. NO fees. Also allows you to rename channels, block channels. Pretty cheap device. Good reviews on Amazon as well.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Careful, don't let Bigg see the reviews posted in that link. One of them said the UI wasn't intuitive so you'd just be asking for trouble if he got hold of one. 

I had not heard of the Homeworx device, but it does look intriguing, especially considering the price. I just downloaded the users manual so I plan on looking through it as soon as I can get a chance.

The first questions that come to mind are:

Can any USB drive be used for recording (i.e., standard HD in a USB enclosure, USB flash drive, ao any other typre of USB storage device)?

What format does it record?

What kind of software does it use for playback (i.e., is it supplied or require a third party app)?


----------



## srauly

dadrepus said:


> Has anybody mention Homeworks?


There are some user photos of the UI on Amazon and it looks absolutely horrid.


----------



## mr.unnatural

srauly said:


> There are some user photos of the UI on Amazon and it looks absolutely horrid.


Most of these third party niche products are built cheap and the designers don't invest a lot of time and effort in the UI. As long as it does what they want and it can be produced at a set price, that's all that matters.


----------



## Bigg

mr.unnatural said:


> Considering you can order the list either by date recorded, alphabetically by title, or by original air date, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where it begins at a quick glance. It also shows exactly where the program is in the list in the lower right corner when the show title is highlighted (i.e., 1|27, etc.). That's more feedback than the recording list in a Tivo provides, IIRC. Like I said, it's a minor annoyance at best. I've gotten used to it so I pay it no mind.


Still far more difficult to use, especially when flipping through stuff fast.


----------



## mr.unnatural

Bigg said:


> Still far more difficult to use, especially when flipping through stuff fast.


I don't find it difficult at all, but I use it every day so I'm used to it. Considering your limited exposure to WMC, it's amazing that you've become such an expert on its use. I've been using it ever since the introduction of the Ceton InfiniTV 4. I got my InfiniTV 4 in the first production run back in August of 2010, which means I've been using WMC in Windows 7 for over three years straight. How many days or weeks did you actually use it before you decided it was the worst thing ever?

I don't make any claims that it's the best DVR software out there, but if you want to use a cablecard for recording and watching digital TV, it's the only software available, with but a few exceptions. If your provider transmits all channels in the clear (i.e., not flagged as copy once), then there are one or two other options. However, using them generally requires a higher level of technical expertise than the average user can muster.

Considering everything that WMC offers plus the ability to tweak it and upgrade it to your heart's content, whatever little quirks you find objectionable pale in comparison to the benefits I get from it. In other words, the pros greatly outweigh the cons, and most of the cons you complain about aren't even on most people's radar.

I've tried Windows 8 very briefly and my first impression was that the UI is absolutely horrible. It's not at all intuitive, especially for long time users of previous versions of Windows. Rather than go into a long rant about it, suffice it to say that over the long haul, Windows 8 has been getting a lot of positive feedback from users, as well as it's share of complaints. The 8.1 release is supposed to have a lot of fixes for things people complained about in the initial release.

The point is, just because I personally don't care for Windows 8, I don't complain about it and voice my opinion to the point where I go out of my way to condemn it as the worst OS ever. The fact that so many others like it tells me that it must have some merit. I just haven't taken the time to explore it more deeply. The UI is different and will require a learning curve to get used to it, just like going from a Tivo to WMC. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different.

BTW, how are you all enjoying the ads on your Tivo? I don't have to deal with any of that crap.


----------



## PalmTrees

Gifted1 said:


> Are there any other companies out there that sell DVR units? And this is excluding cable companies that lease you a DVR unit.
> 
> I know when I did some research a few months ago, I couldn't find any except for one that I think Sony sold years ago and they no longer sell.
> 
> What else is out there besides Tivo?


I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but...

I'm surprised at how few mentions there have been of all of the alternate pre-built / commercial set-top box / PVR devices. Yeah, some of them have poor UIs and EPGs, and choice of ATSC OTA or QAM, but they will offer many of the OP's implied feature requests (although with no CableCard support for most).

Check out the AVSForum thread on "2014 list of consumer available DVR's".

The models include: "BriteView BV-980H / Zinwell ZAT-980H, Channel Master CM 7x00 / DTVPal, Digital Stream / RCA DPH1000R, DVICO TViX M6620N, ePVision PHD-VRX/2, iView-3500STB & the similar Homeworx HW-150PVR and another 4-6 versions under different names using the MStar SoC, Magnavox/Funai TB745H/F7 & similar Philips HDR5710/F7 & 5750".


----------



## PalmTrees

PalmTrees said:


> I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but...
> 
> I'm surprised at how few mentions there have been of all of the alternate pre-built / commercial set-top box / PVR devices. Yeah, some of them have poor UIs and EPGs, and choice of ATSC OTA or QAM, but they will offer many of the OP's implied feature requests (although with no CableCard support for most).
> 
> Check out the AVSForum thread on "2014 list of consumer available DVR's".
> 
> The models include: "BriteView BV-980H / Zinwell ZAT-980H, Channel Master CM 7x00 / DTVPal, Digital Stream / RCA DPH1000R, DVICO TViX M6620N, ePVision PHD-VRX/2, iView-3500STB & the similar Homeworx HW-150PVR and another 4-6 versions under different names using the MStar SoC, Magnavox/Funai TB745H/F7 & similar Philips HDR5710/F7 & 5750".


Oh, and I forgot to mention --

There are also a new bunch of small, prebuilt Android boxes coming out that include an ATSC / QAM tuner and HDMI out with audio passthru. Many of these can grab good, no-cost EPG information from the Internet instead of OTA PSIP. They can also use XBMC apps for Amazon Prime Instant, Netflix, and Hulu.

These Android devices include the Jynxbox Android HD, the Arctic MC001-XBMC (sold out but may be more in the future), and the Geniatech ATV1220.

Within a few years, Android and XBMC on these devices may be solid enough to offer some competition that's stable enough for the average American consumer.


----------



## Dan203

Clear QAM is going away, so unless you're content with the half dozen OTA channels you can get you'd need a DVR that supports CableCARD. As it is right now the only options are TiVo and Media Center with one of the 2-3 CableCARD compatible tuner cards.

Since the OP specifically mentions not wanting to lease a DVR from the cable company I assumed he needed cable compatibility, so none of the options you mentioned would really work.


----------



## tivohaydon

Bigg said:


> Exactly. It isn't a list. And it gives you very little feedback as to where the beginning and end of it is. It's very visually appealing, but falls apart if you have more than a dozen or two shows. I can't even imagine it with close to a terabyte of stuff like my TiVo currently has on it!


I agree the built in WMCE list is terrible. RecordedTVHD makes this completely bearable and organizes things quite well. You get nice auto-season grouping for TV series, full screen background art and a lot more.

Works with many programs recorded. Right now it looks like I'm using about 10TB of my 15TB available. 1324 programs recorded.


----------



## PalmTrees

Dan203 said:


> Clear QAM is going away, so unless you're content with the half dozen OTA channels you can get you'd need a DVR that supports CableCARD. As it is right now the only options are TiVo and Media Center with one of the 2-3 CableCARD compatible tuner cards.
> 
> Since the OP specifically mentions not wanting to lease a DVR from the cable company I assumed he needed cable compatibility, so none of the options you mentioned would really work.


?

OP has already said a couple times on other threads that he doesn't pay for cable TV, he just uses the Clear QAM channels that never got filtered/trapped on his line:



> I don't have a subscription with Time Warner but I can plug the cable wire in from the wall to my TV and get all the OTA channels with no problem. But once I plug it into my Tivo, I only get about 6 channels versus the 20+ that I get with plugging it into my TV.





> I don't subscribe to cable. I do get regular channels though Time Warner though. My building has it set up where all I have to do is plug


So given that his Time Warner area still has clear QAM, any of those STBs/PVRs in the list -- including the Android boxes with tuner -- that do Clear QAM tuning would be great for him.

If you're talking about cable subscribers in general -- then yes, the STB/PVRs in my posts above will lose their usefulness (except for OTA antenna tuning purposes) within a couple years.

However -- given this exact reason that Clear QAM is going away, we may see a number of these STB/PVR makers that currently offer Clear QAM tuning adding a CableCARD slot to their units. They know that if they want to keep their small potential customer base, which is looking for $60 or $160 alternatives to TiVo and rented cable boxes, that the CableCARD slot addition will be necessary.

Prices are falling rapidly on equipment that has CableCARD slots currently, like the Ceton and HDHR models. We're likely to see cheap versions from Chinese fab shops on AliExpress within a short time frame -- including as add-on CableCARD tuners for Android boxes. As demand grows due to loss of Clear QAM, supply will catch up -- Chinese entrepreneurs will make sure of that.


----------



## Dan203

I hadn't read any of his posts in other treads, just this one. His first post made it sound like he was looking for an alternative to a cable DVR so I assumed he was looking for something that worked with cable.

As for your comment about other companies jumping in on the CableCARD market I'm not so sure. There is a LOT of uncertainty in this market. MS stopped all development of Media Center so companies making tuners for HTPCs are going to be in trouble unless another alternative comes along. Unfortunately the process for getting CableCARD certified is very difficult, and expensive, and requires protection at the OS level which is why MCE was the only option. On top of that the recent decision by the FCC to allow Charter to start working on a new downloadable security model puts a lot of uncertainty on the future of CableCARDs in general. TiVo is already invested, so they'll stick around, but other companies might look at this and decide it's not worth the risk to invest in. 

But my point still stands.... If you want a cable compatible DVR today your only options are TiVo and MCE, and MCE is on it's way out so unless someone else joins the fray TiVo is going to be the last man standing.


----------



## HarperVision

I think if Samsung's Cablecard tuner is successful then they'll offer a multi tuner DVR version. Maybe even the current one will be updated to include that feature by attaching an external hard drive.


----------



## mr.unnatural

tivohaydon said:


> I agree the built in WMCE list is terrible. RecordedTVHD makes this completely bearable and organizes things quite well. You get nice auto-season grouping for TV series, full screen background art and a lot more.
> 
> Works with many programs recorded. Right now it looks like I'm using about 10TB of my 15TB available. 1324 programs recorded.


I tried it when it was first introduced and it's a great little app for the WMC recording list. I stopped using it because I prefer the actual list instead of the large poster art. I don't keep that many shows in my Recorded TV folder as I tend to watch them and then delete them so there is no need for me to keep things organized in that manner. It was actually less confusing to use the simple list.

That's one of the best features of WMC. If you don't like the way something looks, there is probably a third party app, patch, or hack that will modify WMC to your liking.

If I want to keep anything I will archive it on my 26TB unRAID server. I used to archive a lot of TV series until I woke up and realized that I'll probably never watch any of them again. I'm currently using about 21TB out of the 26TB available. Most of the files are ripped Blu-Rays and DVDs with a few TV series that I have archived or downloaded. I will never live long enough to watch all of the movies I have collected over the years.


----------



## videobruce

Gifted1 said:


> Are there any other companies out there that sell DVR units? And this is excluding cable companies that lease you a DVR unit.
> I know when I did some research a few months ago, I couldn't find any except for one that I think Sony sold years ago and they no longer sell.
> What else is out there besides Tivo?


The closest choices are the new Channel master DVR+ and the revised ePVision VRX2.
Both have enhanced Guides, it's included with the CM, but optional with the VRX2. Both have fallbacks to PSIP programming from each OTA station. *Unlike TiVo, you are not forced to pay for a Guide to allow full functionality. * 
(You do have to add your own HDD)

Below are links for the attached list;

Bright View/Zinwell BV 980H;
http://www.brite-view.com/980h.php
http://www.amazon.com/brite-View-BV-980H-Digital-Supported-Shifting/dp/B004XIB9UA
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337412/briteview-bv-980h-zinwell-zat-980h-thread

Channel Master CM 7000 / DTVPal;
http://www.channelmaster.com/Channel_Master_TV_s/304.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-7000PAL-Digital-Recorder/product-reviews/B0033TJPJW
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360146/channel-master-tv-cm-7400-hd-dvr-ota-clear-qam-internet-content

Channel Master CM 7400 / Entone Amulet 458 (w/ fan);
http://www.channelmaster.com/Channel_Master_TV_s/304.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM7400-Internet-Compatible/dp/B0065EQ45U
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360146/channel-master-tv-cm-7400-hd-dvr-ota-clear-qam-internet-content
http://henrybowman.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/review-channelmaster-cm7400-ota-dvr/
http://www.entone.com/products/amulet
http://antennalogic.ecrater.com/p/17040669/entone-dvr-dual-tuner-for-antenna

Channel Master DVR+;
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/DVR_p/cm-7500gb16.htm?Click=32508#
http://support.channelmaster.com/hc/en-us/sections/200089355-CM-7500GB16
http://support.channelmaster.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/200074529/DVR_Plus_Users_Guide.pdf
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/channel-master-dvr/4505-6463_7-35833139.html
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481183/channel-master-dvr-owners-thread

Digital Stream/RCA DPH1000R (couldn't find any importers website);
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/827600-REG/RCA_DPH1000R_DPH_1000R_HDTV_Recorder.html
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns...ting-the-cord-with-digital-streams-hd-dvr.php
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Stream-DPH1000R-Recorder-Tuner/dp/B007FEEO3S/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1402738/rca-dph-1000r-hdtv-recorder

DVICO TViX M6620N
http://www.tvix.co.kr/ENG/products/PVRM6620N.aspx
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/tvixM6620NP.asp
http://www.amazon.com/M-6620N-Wirel...CLUDED/dp/B002WVJILC/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1195962/official-dvico-tvix-m6620n-hd-atsc-qam-tuner-topic

ePVision PHD VRX/VRX2;
http://www.epvision.com/HDTVSTB/phdvrxmain.htm
http://www.amazon.com/1080p-Digital-Recorder-Receiver-Center/dp/B008RHTXLA/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414002/epvision-phd-vrx-owners-thread

Funai made Magnavox TB745H/F7/Philips HDR5710 & 50/F7;
http://www.usa.philips.com/c/blu-ray-dvd/5000-series-hdr5750_f7/prd/en/
http://download.p4c.philips.com/files/h/hdr5750_f7/hdr5750_f7_dfu_aen.pdf
http://www.twice.com/articletype/news/pf-adds-philips-hdr-pair/109046
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1498196/m...7-and-hdr5750-f7-hd-recorders-wi-fi-streamers
http://www.amazon.com/review/B00G03...AW8E6S380#R3BBJAW8E6S380.2115.Helpful.Reviews
(nothing on the Maggy web site as of this date)

iView-3500STB/3500STBIII;
http://iviewus.com/product_detail.php?id=267&pid=154&parentId=1
http://iviewus.com/admin/file_upload/20130128163411file.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/iView-3500STB...iewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465875/iview-3500stb-dvr-tuner-owners-thread

Mediasonic Homeworx HW-150PVR;
http://www.mediasonic.ca/product.php?id=1365123671
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CXAE92K

Moxi;
http://www.moxi.com/us/moxi_dvr.html
http://www.amazon.com/Moxi-2-Tuner-...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1095015/moxi-hd-dvr
For the record, this will be of interest (link from Bryan_CoxPHX);
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-02/arris-to-cease-retail-moxi-dvr-service/

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## heyted

mr.unnatural said:


> I've got a mini-ITX setup with an AMD E350 as a satellite HTPC in the spare bedroom. It was painfully slow until I recently installed an SSD for the OS drive. I'm not all that crazy about the mini-ITX platform because you only get a single PCI-e slot and they tend to cost more than either a micro-ATX or full-sized ATX setup. Cases are way overpriced as well.


Using a TiVo as a case can help with the case price. Mine was less than zero dollars after I sold some of the other Premiere components. Granted it takes time, and it is larger than regular cases.



mr.unnatural said:


> I'd actually prefer an Intel NUC or a Gigabyte Brix to a mini-ITX platform for a satellite system. They can be used with more powerful CPUs for better performance (i.e., faster menus, etc.). It's not a good choice for DVR use unless you can set it up with networked storage to hold the recordings. There are several different network tuner options available.


I agree it is not the best choice for performance, and it is of course sower than a NUC with a Core i3 or i5 processor, but I have found it to be quite adequate without network storage. It is using a hard disc from a TiVo Premiere for booting and storing content. I am using it as a combined frontend and backend. People can judge for themselves from the video below if the performance is adequate.


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## mr.unnatural

Wow. What did you use to cut the hole in the top, a can opener? I hope you've had your tetanus shot.  Other than that, nice job. :up:

I had thoughts of re-purposing one of my old DTivos as a small form factor PC using my mini-ITX platform. I ended up replacing the mini-ITX unit with an Intel NUC


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