# 16K HR10-250 Users Affected by 6.x Upgrade



## jhrain (Dec 19, 2006)

After countless hours of talking to a friend at DirecTV, he's told me that DirecTV knows now that there are more than 16,000 HR10-250 users impacted by the recent 6.3a/b upgrade. That number will most likely go up as they move soem remaining 3.1 users directly to 6.3b. 6.3b finishes rolling out on 1/15/07.

DirecTV Tech Support has notified their developers who are not giving them any sort of feedback. No one knows if DirecTV will actually try to fix this issue.

DirecTV's answer is to send affected users an HR20-700s and then deal with the poor customer satisfaction that comes from those users trying to learn this new pos. I am one of thos unlucky victims. I hate the HR20 (so far). I want my TIVO back and if I thought there was a class action suit somewhere in this I would persue it.

One point my friend made.. if many of the 16,000 users would pick up the phone and talk to 2nd level tech support it would go a long way to getting DirecTV to take action. So far, most people are reluctant to deal with that hassle.


----------



## austinsho (Oct 21, 2001)

Can your friend confirm that reverting to 3.1.5 will completely fix the issue?


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

What exactly does 'affected' mean? Isn't every single owner of an HR10 affected since Fox (and others I've heard some reports of..) audio dropouts affect all units. I would think the great majority of users watch something on Fox. (Okay, not 100%)

I'm just wondering where that 16K number is from. Is that supposed to be the whole outstanding universe of HR10s or some subset, and, if so, how and why?

As for reverting to 3.1.5f, it was fine for years for most, except for slowness and no folders. Why wouldn't it work? Many have stayed there, not wanting 6.3x.

Heck, if 6.3b causes more issues, I'm going back to 3.1.5f. I can't stand the audio dropouts and reboots while in the middle of a show are not acceptable.


----------



## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

leesweet said:


> What exactly does 'affected' mean? Isn't every single owner of an HR10 affected since Fox (and others I've heard some reports of..) audio dropouts affect all units. I would think the great majority of users watch something on Fox. (Okay, not 100%)
> 
> I'm just wondering where that 16K number is from. Is that supposed to be the whole outstanding universe of HR10s or some subset, and, if so, how and why?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't know what "affected" means either. I was definitely affected by the audio dropout issue of 6.3a, and reverted to 3.1.5f because of it. On the other hand, I have been running 6.3b for a number of days now, and haven't had a single problem...so if there are issues with 6.3b, they haven't affected me (yet...fingers crossed).


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The OP makes no sense to me either.

However, I've hit a very strange bug, starting Friday -- I got a bunch of truncated recordings. No errors, no warnings, no visible dropouts on the intact portions; they just stopped early. I was even watching a prerecorded program when it happened once, on both tuners; I'd seen nothing wrong while I'd been watching. I've never seen anything like this before. I'm not assuming that means it's related to 6.3b, though.

The audio dropouts are fixed by 6.3b, as noted elsewhere.


----------



## sk33t3r (Jul 9, 2003)

austinsho said:


> Can your friend confirm that reverting to 3.1.5 will completely fix the issue?


Im still at 3.1.5f and have no problems what so ever.


----------



## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

"I want my TIVO back and if I thought there was a class action suit somewhere in this I would persue it."

How about a class action suit for forcing a large number of DirecTV Tivo customers to go to an in-house solution requiring a two year lease agreement, ending the relationship with Tivo, only to renew a contract to avoid a possible patent infringment suit, and finally tampering with downloaded schedule information and software updates to push the last remaining Tivo customers towards the in-house solution which has proven over time to have required at least another three to six months of additional beta testing before releasing to the general public. Now if that doesn't get you thinking about a class action suit - nothing will.

Now having said all that....my HR10 is on 6.3a and working beautifully. <knocking wood>

Bonanza


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> The OP makes no sense to me either.
> 
> However, I've hit a very strange bug, starting Friday -- I got a bunch of truncated recordings. No errors, no warnings, no visible dropouts on the intact portions; they just stopped early. I was even watching a prerecorded program when it happened once, on both tuners; I'd seen nothing wrong while I'd been watching. I've never seen anything like this before. I'm not assuming that means it's related to 6.3b, though.
> 
> The audio dropouts are fixed by 6.3b, as noted elsewhere.


What's weird is that I had some of this when I first got 6.3a, back when. Then it went away. No idea if there's a connection or not as you say. I had about a dozen truncated shows, I had shows where the recorded time length didn't match the green bar didn't match the actual playable length.

All evaporated. The only problem I have now with 'a' is the audio and an occasional reboot.

Go figure. Without parallel universes (or another identically set up machine on 3.1.5..  ) you can't prove anything.

I'd still like to know WTF the facts in the OP were.


----------



## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

jhrain said:


> One point my friend made.. if many of the 16,000 users would pick up the phone and talk to 2nd level tech support it would go a long way to getting DirecTV to take action. So far, most people are reluctant to deal with that hassle.


Well the sad thing here is SO many of us don't even bother anymore. With the standard reply from D* of "Gee, we've never heard of this problem before..." or the last time I called i was basically told.."yes we know of it and there is no sw fix planned to correct it" - so basically they told me so what deal with it.

I know they cannot fix a problem without customers communicating with them about the problem, but with the piss poor customer support they offer, it's become pointless to even pick up the phone. So what, we call and complain and then are offered free whatever for 3-6 months and they string us along with no real solution.

Personally I am ready to bail. As soon as the S3 price drops, I'm walkin'.


----------



## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Bonanzaair said:


> "I want my TIVO back and if I thought there was a class action suit somewhere in this I would persue it."
> 
> How about a class action suit for forcing a large number of DirecTV Tivo customers to go to an in-house solution requiring a two year lease agreement, ending the relationship with Tivo, only to renew a contract to avoid a possible patent infringment suit, and finally tampering with downloaded schedule information and software updates to push the last remaining Tivo customers towards the in-house solution which has proven over time to have required at least another three to six months of additional beta testing before releasing to the general public. Now if that doesn't get you thinking about a class action suit - nothing will.
> 
> ...


Class action suit? Based on what damages? Has anyone experienced some dreadful financial impact? Does DirecTV have an obligation to see that a model they made will run perfectly in perpetuity? Seems that the warranty was a year.

If you don't like DirecTV products or services, then leave! That's your remedy.

There isn't a legal solution for every one of life's little hicoughs, in spite of what you and ambulance-chasing store front lawyers will have you belive.


----------



## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> Seems that the warranty was a year.


Yeah, well if they make us sign up for a two year contract, I certainly expect them to have a working hw platform during that contract period. Otherwise I will consider the contract void and take my business elsewhere.

I agree that there is no basis for a CALS, but they have totally screwed the pooch on the 6.3A/B release. Time to take a walk IMO.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rmassey said:


> Yeah, well if they make us sign up for a two year contract, I certainly expect them to have a working hw platform during that contract period. Otherwise I will consider the contract void and take my business elsewhere.
> 
> I agree that there is no basis for a CALS, but they have totally screwed the pooch on the 6.3A/B release. Time to take a walk IMO.


Define "working". My DVR works reliably 99% of the time, but suffers the occasional hiccoughs, just like my car, home heating system, refrigerator, dish washer, etc. I don't consider suing Honda or Kenmore or whoever else makes my products, or cutting and running, just because of an occasional blip.


----------



## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

'Working" (to me) is 99% of the time no random reboots, no short recordings, not audio drop outs.

I've been fairly unaffected with only one or two reboots and the Fox audio dropouts, bot others have been less fortunate IMO. Heck some poor guy is reporting reboots every 20-30 mins after receiving 6.3b. IMO, that's an unacceptable level of service. YMMV.

BTW, I'm not up for suing D*, my option would be to just cancel service and go elsewhere.


----------



## Packageman (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok I Give 

How do you revert to 3.1 ( last version before 6.3 upgrades) I would not want an H20 . I get all my local stations over the air in HD and from whay I have read here that feature is turned off for now in an H20 not to mention all the other issues. 

I switched from Dish because the DVR they had, had issues that they would not admit to. I was spending more time on tech support than watching TV. 

So I can deal with a slow guide. Now how do I go back to the future.


----------



## Bonanzaair (Aug 26, 2006)

Shingingbeagle - "Ignore 'em, m'dear. They're beneath your dignity." W.C. Fields

You would have been better off following your own line. I know I am. - Thank-you!

Bonanza


----------



## sk33t3r (Jul 9, 2003)

Packageman said:


> Ok I Give
> 
> How do you revert to 3.1 ( last version before 6.3 upgrades) I would not want an H20 . I get all my local stations over the air in HD and from whay I have read here that feature is turned off for now in an H20 not to mention all the other issues.
> 
> ...


The easiest way to get back to 3.1.5f is to get the instant cake iso from dvrupgrade, you could use this with zipper if you wanted to, but this will get you back to 3.1.5f


----------



## scott blair (Apr 14, 2003)

Remember, DTV pushed new software on to everyones boxes with pretty hideous defects that have impacted usability.

The users did not choose or opt-in to get the software. DTV chose to put it on everyones boxes. That's all fine, but when the result of that creates what many people consider less than usable condition and then DTV only offers a remedy of a new box with a 2-year committment and LEASE status....then yes, it does create the perfect opportunity for a Class Action Suit.

I'm not a big fan of them myself. But with DTV's operations and policies of late...especially with unknowingly converting people to leases when they shouldn't I consider DTV prime for a major Class Action. I have certainly seen them over issues that are trivial in comparison.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

If you do decide to file a class action suit against DirecTV... be sure to include TiVo, Inc. in the suit.

As they are the ones that write the software for the HR10-250.

Not DirecTV... they have no access to the code. They use a "thrid" party (aka TiVo) for the software.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

scott blair said:


> Remember, DTV pushed new software on to everyones boxes with pretty hideous defects that have impacted usability.
> 
> The users did not choose or opt-in to get the software. DTV chose to put it on everyones boxes. That's all fine, but when the result of that creates what many people consider less than usable condition and then DTV only offers a remedy of a new box with a 2-year committment and LEASE status....then yes, it does create the perfect opportunity for a Class Action Suit.


DirecTV controls the service you receive, and it's in the terms of the agreement you accepted when you continued to use their service that you may receive software updates from time to time.

I seem to recall loose talk of class action suits against DirecTV when all the HR10 users were stuck on 3.1 for so long after folders were rolled out to non-HD units, with the reason being that a subset of the user base was being deprived for no good reason.

I guess the bottom line is everyone should DirecTV, whether they send updates or not ...



> I'm not a big fan of them myself. But with DTV's operations and policies of late...especially with unknowingly converting people to leases when they shouldn't I consider DTV prime for a major Class Action. I have certainly seen them over issues that are trivial in comparison.


This is news to me that DirecTV "unknowingly converted" people from owned receivers to leased receivers. I have four owned and know that if I went to Best Buy today and picked up a new receiver, or called DirecTV to order a new one, that the new one would be leased but my others would remain owned. There were some hiccoughs when the lease program first rolled out, but it mostly took one phone call for receivers to be properly categorized. Worthy of a suit? Not.


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> If you do decide to file a class action suit against DirecTV... be sure to include TiVo, Inc. in the suit.
> 
> As they are the ones that write the software for the HR10-250.
> 
> Not DirecTV... they have no access to the code. They use a "thrid" party (aka TiVo) for the software.


LOL...and the tennis match continues.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> LOL...and the tennis match continues.


 Just throwing it out there, for those that are intrested in going that route... so they can have all their facts up front, before writing some good sized checks to the lawyers that benefit from the Class Actions..


----------



## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Just throwing it out there, for those that are intrested in going that route... so they can have all their facts up front, before writing some good sized checks to the lawyers that benefit from the Class Actions..


Ed (  ), had you responded in any other way I would have been disappointed! You're like a D* offensive lineman.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> Ed (  ), had you responded in any other way I would have been disappointed! You're like a D* offensive lineman.


I need to search and find the first person that called me Ed... Because for what ever reason it has stuck. It's Earl.. 

Anyway..


----------



## GreyGhost00 (Mar 11, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> I need to search and find the first person that called me Ed... Because for what ever reason it has stuck. It's Earl..


----------



## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> Seems that the warranty was a year.


Unless of course you have the protection plan.


----------



## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

D* wants to get rid of all the HR10's, but they don't have enough of the 20's to swap out all of the hr10's at once. What better way to swap them out slowly than to selectively put bugs into "X" amount of HR10's at a time, and force these subscribers to reluctantly take D* offer to replace them with the 20"s. A very sinister way to eliminate everyones beloved TiVo HR10's. After they force the average "Joe subscriber" to take the replacement, they will only have the TiVo hackers to contend with, and that will be when they will announce that the sun is setting on the Mpeg 2 stream, and force the rest of us to downgrade (they think upgrade) or go to another provider.
Its too bad that TiVo can't offer Dish a HD TiVo powered DVR. If they did, I'm sure that there wound be a mass exodus from D* to Dish.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

1 - DirecTV doesn't want to get "rid" of all the HR10's... they want to move to MPEG-4 for their HD content... which requires them to replace ALL of their HD based receivers that are not either the HR20 or the H20. That includes all of their NON-DVR based HD receivers.

And they are replacing those at their cost. As for the HR10-250, when the times comes you will be given the option to replace yoru HR10...... you will be offered an opportunity to keep it, to use it as an OTA and DirecTV SD DTivo.

2 - TiVo, Inc. writes the software for the HR10-250... So if you think, that DirecTV asked TiVo to introduce "X" bugs into the system, and TiVo, Inc. agreed to that.......


If DirecTV "wanted" to get rid of all the TiVo powerd units, they could do it very easily. They could announce a sunset date for the product, and be done with it.
But they haven't done that, I highly doubt they ever will.... As they still allow the hardware from 10 years ago to be activated.


----------



## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

What DirecTV could have done was a better job testing the 6.3 update. They clearly took a back seat on that one.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

gquiring said:


> What DirecTV could have done was a better job testing the 6.3 update. They clearly took a back seat on that one.


Yes, they probably could have... but so could have TiVo, Inc.

But "who" gets the blame... DirecTV does, as after all it is "their" product.
And people wonder why they wanted to get away from third party vendors.


----------



## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

1. D* could have contracted TiVo to developed a TiVo based Mpeg4 receiver, and not caused such a controversy. They were working on the S3, and could have had it adapted it for D*.If it was a mater of the the licence fee that is paid to TiVo, they could have passed it on to the subscribers. I wouldn't have minded paying the $1-2 a month to keep my TiVo alive. 

2. Then why do some people have no trouble with 6.3x while others are reporting these troubles? And don't call it "hard drive failures". I find it very hard to believe that everyones hard drive developed selective failures for the same problem all at once. 

3. If D* announced that they were cutting off the Mpeg 2 next month, there would be such an outcry that people would be looking into a class action suit. 
You can never kill a frog by throwing it into boiling water as it will jump out. But if you put it into cold water and turn up the heat, the frog will sit there and die. 
The HR10 owners are sitting in the pot of water, and it is getting warmer every day. 

I think that it is very nieve to think that corporations don't sit back and think how to manipulate the public by any means to go in the direction that they want them to.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

1) They could have, but didn't.... For what ever reasons. DirecTV opted to not go that route, after all... TiVo, Inc. is just a third party vendor. DirecTV opted to build their own. Your right, they could have passed it on to the customer... They could have also, allowed TiVo to go back to the original "model" of a TiVo with DirecTV, where TiVo was responsible for the receiver, and it just received a signal... but as we all know... What ever relationship that was there, is no more... blame who ever you want, but it takes two to tango.

2) Why do some people have issues with the HR20, and other's don't. (yes, I did say HR20). These are complex system here. Designed to be as "slimline" as possible. So, unless every singe user out there, installs the hacks so we can see the dump logs... your guess isas good as the next one as to "why" one HR10-250 fails, and another identical configuration doesn't.

Do you really honestly think, they introduced some "random" code to specifically target systems? And again, TiVo, Inc.. writes that software... so they would have had to be willing to do that as well. 

3) They have already announced it... it is no secret that they are shutting off the MPEG-2 stream. And there has been an outcry over it. They just haven't set a date. Hence the reason they have announced (and have already started), replacing the MPEG-2 only systems.

No different then when they moved from MPEG-1 (or what ever version it was), to the MPEG-2 version they have today... 10+ years ago.

No different then what the Cable Companies are doing with their "analog" versions on their cable offereings... they are pulling content from the analog, to the digital... no different.


But if you have a better technological solution, to the bandwith issues for HD content... please... we are all ears. I am pretty sure DirecTV would rather not spend the Billions to put up the new SATs, and the millions it is going to cost them to swap out the receivers for free.


----------



## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

Earl, 
I have always enjoy reading your posts, and value your opinions. 
Yes there are good and bad things about both platforms. 
I do understand that D* needed to go to Mpeg4 in order to offer more channels. 
D* missed such a good opportunity to improve and upgrade TiVo to the D*S3 platform by switching to brand X DVR to save a $. I don't think that TiVo development cost would be an issue as TiVo would stand to make alot of $$ selling the upgrade box to all of us. 
It was D* arrogance that drove them to create a box that they thought that there subscribers would welcome with open arms. 
D* can make all of the software upgrades to the HR20 that they want, but it will never be a TiVo. 
D* could contract TiVo to port their platform to run on the HR20, but that has a .01% chance of ever happening.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Thank you, I appriciate it.

As with most third party relationship, the "service looker" is the the final decider. So you are right... with all the facts and issues out there, DirecTV did make the final decision to go the way they did. And it most certainly had to do with $. DirecTV wanted to pay $x for the services, but TiVo wanted $y... and they never came to an agreement.

It is no different then any other 3rd party relationship. Just my company right now, is now looking for a 3rd party company to provide us with a new Point of Sale offering. We have talked to mulitple vendors, but no vendor wants to provide what we want, for the price we want it at..... So what has gone on... they are still looking for other vendors... If they don't find someone, they are going to consider hiring staff and writting it internally.

DirecTV is not the first, and most certainly will not be the last to opt to go with an internal solution, rather then a third party solution. Be it good or bad.

And TiVo might not have made a dime of the sale of the box, all depends on what the agreement would have been. DirecTV has pretty much taken the same route as most of the other major carriers out there have done.... We are offereing "our" boxes... and that's it. Even the information about the Comcast offering, raises an eyebrow or two. Why try to stuff the TiVo platform, into a 3yrd old piece of hardware? Why not just offer a new updated hardware set... 

You are right, they can update the HR20 as much they want... it will never be a TiVo... It was never intended to be a clone of the TiVo. It is a DVR. Be it good or bad. It is what it is. 

Sure, DirecTV could contract TiVo to get some software version to run inside the HR20 hardware. But it is closer to .000000000000000001% chance that it will ever happen.


----------



## dbuchthal (Dec 25, 2001)

sk33t3r said:


> The easiest way to get back to 3.1.5f is to get the instant cake iso from dvrupgrade, you could use this with zipper if you wanted to, but this will get you back to 3.1.5f


It's been a long time since I've hacked my TiVos, and I haven't been paying attention to InstantCake, although it seems to be getting a lot of praise on the forums. Can i use IC to revert my machine to 3.1.5f without losing my SP list and current shows? Can I use IC to upgrade to a larger HD, again without losing my existing data?  Can I simultaneously add network support -- if I'm going to hack the darn box, I might as well hack it all the way...


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> I need to search and find the first person that called me Ed... Because for what ever reason it has stuck. It's Earl..
> 
> Anyway..


I always have to fight the urge to add an extra "e" on your name. Earle .... Earle .... Earle ... 

Why can't we just let you be?!


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

leesweet said:


> What exactly does 'affected' mean? Isn't every single owner of an HR10 affected since Fox (and others I've heard some reports of..) audio dropouts affect all units...
> 
> I'm just wondering where that 16K number is from. Is that supposed to be the whole outstanding universe of HR10s or some subset...


I may be jumping to a conclusion, but the 16K number sounds like the number of HR10s that got up revved to 6.3/a before Tivo brought the rollout to a a screeching halt after realizing their up rev was skunked. Most HR10's never got to 6.3/a. The universe of HR10-s has been conservatively estimated as between 750K and 2 mil.

FOX programming is affected more than others because the nature of the dropouts is based on buffer overflow on broadcasts including 5.1 audio. Virtually all FOX affils pass 5.1 on all network shows, unless they are upconverted from SD for later broadcast. Unless you are in a top market, most non-FOX affils do not pass 5.1, even in prime. Folks in those markets then quite understandably only see the problem on FOX programming. Ironically, it's "no good deed goes unpunished" for FOX.


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Er, okay. So, no one except the top DMAs have this issue? I dunno. Back when there was a monster thread at AVS about the splicer upgrades for the Fox stations (I assume that's part/all of what you mean, since the splicer is always mentioned as the culprit in the audio dropouts... correct me if I'm wrong here...), a *lot* (all?) of the DMAs were converted. Not the top 10/20/50, etc.

I really don't think only WDC/NY/LA, etc. are the victims here. Or am I totally off base? 

Also, I've seen a *lot* of posts where it was said *all* Fox programming (SD/HD) exhibits the audio dropout behavior (and I as reported above somewhere, I experienced even worse than normal dropouts on an SD Seinfeld Suggestion recording than on an OTA House HD!).

So, thus, I still submit most users are affected, and it includes all 6.3 and 6.3a users.


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> 1 - DirecTV doesn't want to get "rid" of all the HR10's... they want to move to MPEG-4 for their HD content... which requires them to replace ALL of their HD based receivers that are not either the HR20 or the H20. That includes all of their NON-DVR based HD receivers.
> 
> And they are replacing those at their cost. As for the HR10-250, when the times comes you will be given the option to replace yoru HR10...... you will be offered an opportunity to keep it, to use it as an OTA and DirecTV SD DTivo.


Earl, can you clarify this? Do you mean that the 'their cost' for the HR10->HR20 automatic replacement (perhaps you can keep it, perhaps you can swing it now, not important...) is a ways down the road?

Any idea if that's second half 2007? 2008? What?

I *know* most here don't want to hear about this, but we do need to know the actual policy of D* on the upgrade procedure at any time, and I don't mind getting and playing with a free HR20 and keeping my (bought and owned (at $900 each, dang it!  ) HR10s at the same time. I sure don't want to lay out more cash than I need to, and $0 sounds about right, seeing as I have so far gotten zilch from D* for the HR10s, 3 R15s, and a 5x8 MS. 

Thanks!


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> If you do decide to file a class action suit against DirecTV... be sure to include TiVo, Inc. in the suit.
> 
> As they are the ones that write the software for the HR10-250.
> 
> Not DirecTV... they have no access to the code. They use a "thrid" party (aka TiVo) for the software.


Can you provide me a list of who makes every single part inside a directv receiver, and also who makes the dish, who makes the lnb, who makes the power cord, who made the satellite, who launched the satellite etc...

That way, i'm in perfect position to file a class action suit against whatever goes wrong with my setup.

-smak-


----------



## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

leesweet said:


> Also, I've seen a *lot* of posts where it was said *all* Fox programming (SD/HD) exhibits the audio dropout behavior (and I as reported above somewhere, I experienced even worse than normal dropouts on an SD Seinfeld Suggestion recording than on an OTA House HD!).


That's true, at least in my experiments. The dropouts affected all programming on the FOX station, no matter if they were in network or local programs. And while in local programming, my FOX station doesn't send 5.1 -- just plain 'old DD 2.0. Plenty of dropouts to be had -- and it also affected their subchannel as well.

What I found is that if we took the splicer out of the signal path, the dropouts went away. Never did figure out why that was, but it was 100% repeatable ...


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

Thanks for the confirm! I knew there was a Fox insider who did that!


----------



## fatdad1 (Sep 17, 2006)

Earl, 

I want to thank you for your help in trying to give a reasonable point of view. You know for months we all begged for folders speed, folders speed. 3.1 was just plugging along. (me to.) Every so often we beat up Earl for his optimism. I think people complained to D* so much about not having these things, they feared they would loose business without upgrading the Hr-10's. To do it so late on the life cycle, it makes no other sense to me, We are the highest paying customers they have. I have two HR-10's one on 3.1 one on 6.3B. Both IC'ed. Logs off on 6.3B (you know why). I have read this forum for years and only recently joined so don't beat me up. It seems Tivo is leaving all sat equipment behind for cable. I am retired, but spent 30 years in equipment in sales and service and I have lost business because I couldn't afford for win the bid, but why Tivo fail to get either of the sat companies I can't explain. They are raising they prices from what I see and the S3 won't work anything, but cable. If anyone is suspect, maybe there are some sour grapes about D* going elsewhere for it's DVR's. I like Tivo's interface, but I know we will all evently go to MPEG4. I live in the boonies of Missouri. No cable! Well that is my post for the next few months. Thanks to all for the info and help, it has made an old man very happy and I have mashed my cheeks for hours playing with this stuff. Sure enjoy this hobby,, Goodnight........


----------



## temp357 (Feb 18, 2004)

You guys are making me dizzy.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

smak said:


> Can you provide me a list of who makes every single part inside a directv receiver, and also who makes the dish, who makes the lnb, who makes the power cord, who made the satellite, who launched the satellite etc...
> 
> That way, i'm in perfect position to file a class action suit against whatever goes wrong with my setup.
> 
> -smak-


Ahh... don't forget your TV Vendor, your Power Company, the company that made the cables, the batteries in your remote, the entertainment system, your HVAC company for not providing the proper cooling, ect.....


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

fatdad1 said:


> ...
> It seems Tivo is leaving all sat equipment behind for cable. ....but why Tivo fail to get either of the sat companies I can't explain. ...


Thanks fatdad1 for your comments...

But in fairness to TiVo, Inc... they didn't "leave" sat equipment behind.
They had no choice... As they are a third party vendor with respects to their software platform.

On their hardware side, they need the authorization (and assistance), from the two main SAT companies in order to offer a product. And both of them opted to go at it with their own solutions.

Cable and FIOS, and more specifically the "cable-card" method was really the only choice they had left, with OTA (both analog and digital), just not a big enough market.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I always have to fight the urge to add an extra "e" on your name. Earle .... Earle .... Earle ...
> 
> Why can't we just let you be?!


You guys can call me what ever you want, just don't call me late for dinner...


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

leesweet said:


> Earl, can you clarify this? Do you mean that the 'their cost' for the HR10->HR20 automatic replacement (perhaps you can keep it, perhaps you can swing it now, not important...) is a ways down the road?
> 
> Any idea if that's second half 2007? 2008? What?
> 
> ...


For the last 6 weeks, there was a shortage of HR20's. But it appears now they are back up to "fair" stock levels. Previously those that had HR10's where getting the HR20's sub $100, some just for the cost of shipping ($20 or so).

The vast majority of those people have been able to KEEP their HR10's as well.

As for the "forced" swap out... yes... eventually, anyone that still has an HR10 that has not gotten some sort of "deal" towards and MPEG-4 compatible piece of equipment, will have an opportunity to have their HR10 "swapped".
But there are no details on what that exact offer will be.

Right now, the deals are fairly consistant, but not 100% accross all customers.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Earl, I agree with mos tof what you are saying. However, I have 2 minor nits to pick. 

1. Taking away a receiver that someone bought and owns and replacing it with something that is leased is not exactly the same same as replacing it free of charge. The cutomer is losing something that has value (maybe it is only worth the $50 that the 250 gig drive is worth, but that is stuill something) and getting a receiver that they do not own.

2. The change from Mpeg2 to 4 is not like the previous change (which was from a DirecTv or whatever it was called then modified 'Mpeg 1.5' to Mpeg 2) because the previous change was via a software update. No receviers were replaced or made obsolete in the upgrade.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

For #1) That is why I think in the vast majority of cases so far... the owner of the HR10 still gets to keep their equipment.

I really wish DirecTV would have done this "lease" thing differently... at least not call it a lease, as it really isn't. 

For #2) Yes, it is different... because at least at that time, they knew they would be changing to MPEG"2" and it was designed in. IIRC, there was at least one model RCA that had to be replaced (As I had one of them), because it just didn't like the software update.

And that was when those receivers where $600 a pop. (Yes I know the HR10 was $1k, as I am still paying finance charges on it  )


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

So, if I call for an HR20, I will get one free?  I may try that today. Know I'm semi-pushing my luck, but what the heck, and I've not got *one* discount/freebie from D* on 3.5 years and I've got $2500 of D* equipment.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

leesweet said:


> So, if I call for an HR20, I will get one free?  I may try that today. Know I'm semi-pushing my luck, but what the heck, and I've not got *one* discount/freebie from D* on 3.5 years and I've got $2500 of D* equipment.


Very possible.
One of my friends just got one for the $19.95 shipping price, just this past week.


----------



## leesweet (Mar 13, 2004)

That's my goal... well, $0 is my goal; details: I have $2400 of D*equipment (with no freebies): 2 HR10s (purchased), MS, and 3 R15 (leased, but I still paid for them...  ).


----------



## jeffshoaf (May 21, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Cable and FIOS, and more specifically the "cable-card" method was really the only choice they had left, with OTA (both analog and digital), just not a big enough market.


I've often wondered why neither of the satellite companies are offering a cable-card receiver, or, if size is an issue, a receiver with a cable-card "extension" that would plug into a cable-card slot and interface with a TV that way...


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Very possible.
> One of my friends just got one for the $19.95 shipping price, just this past week.


Well, that is not so bad then. When the time comes that stuff I want is Mpeg 4, I might just have to go the dual receiver route and keep the HR10-250s for locals and get a couple of HR20-700s for sat based stuff. It will certainly expand my recording ability.

Now, if only there were a way to have a server with several tuners and a terabyte of storage in one place and have multiple boxes that could use it...


----------



## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Lee L said:


> Now, if only there were a way to have a server with several tuners and a terabyte of storage in one place and have multiple boxes that could use it...


It would seem smart for multiple Tivos (or multiple HR20s) to use something like Bonjour (nee' Rendezvous) to discover the other "like" DVRs on the network and then "mesh" together. Rather than have one massive server, just have each dual-tuner DVR capable of working "together". 4 DVRS = 8 tuners and 1 TB of space without upgrading.

So if you try to record something that's already scheduled to record elsewhere, you'd get a message "This program is already scheduled to record and will be available over the network. Do you still want to record it locally?"

If you try to record something and there's a conflict, it would check to see if there's available tuners on another DVR and report back with "There's a conflict, but we can set this up to record on another DVR on the network. Record this program elsewhere?"

Or something like that.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> Ahh... don't forget your TV Vendor, your Power Company, the company that made the cables, the batteries in your remote, the entertainment system, your HVAC company for not providing the proper cooling, ect.....


It's about as real an idea as suing the company's whose software is embedded on a consumer electronics device! What's next, suing Symbian if my cell phone dies? 

-smak-


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

jcricket said:


> It would seem smart for multiple Tivos (or multiple HR20s) to use something like Bonjour (nee' Rendezvous) to discover the other "like" DVRs on the network and then "mesh" together. Rather than have one massive server, just have each dual-tuner DVR capable of working "together". 4 DVRS = 8 tuners and 1 TB of space without upgrading.
> 
> So if you try to record something that's already scheduled to record elsewhere, you'd get a message "This program is already scheduled to record and will be available over the network. Do you still want to record it locally?"
> 
> ...


I was mostly busting on the vaporware DirecTV product that was supposed to be out by now that would allow that, but I agree having them be able to talk would be great as well and would also give you some fault tolerance since all of your eggs would not be in one basket.


----------



## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> And people wonder why they wanted to get away from third party vendors.


Just curious...

Isn't NDS also considered as a third party vendor? Even before the News Corp.'s sale of DirecTV, NDS was a separate company from DirecTV, wasn't it? After the ownership (or controlling share) change of DirecTV, it certainly will be.

It's not like Echostar who actually builds their DVR solutions within the company.

Hong.


----------



## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

BTW, I think the QA problem we are seeing is more likely a result of the current situation between DirecTV and TiVo where there is no more a future product deal between them. Unless a new contract is made (which I somehow doubt at this point), HR10-250 is a hot potato for both of them.

Hong.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

hongcho said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Isn't NDS also considered as a third party vendor? Even before the News Corp.'s sale of DirecTV, NDS was a separate company from DirecTV, wasn't it? After the ownership (or controlling share) change of DirecTV, it certainly will be.
> 
> ...


IIRC, even Echostar uses a middleware product, that they got from else where. Key word there is Middleware... They do write most of the system.

The HR20 is done by DirecTV employees. Yes, using some components from "third party" vendors. But the core programming of the system is done by DirecTV employees.

The HR20 is not build by NDS employees.


----------



## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

leesweet said:


> Er, okay. So, no one except the top DMAs have this issue? I dunno. Back when there was a monster thread at AVS about the splicer upgrades for the Fox stations (I assume that's part/all of what you mean, since the splicer is always mentioned as the culprit in the audio dropouts... correct me if I'm wrong here...), a *lot* (all?) of the DMAs were converted. Not the top 10/20/50, etc.
> 
> I really don't think only WDC/NY/LA, etc. are the victims here. Or am I totally off base?
> 
> ...


 It sounds like you didn't understand at all what I said, but maybe I just didn't 'splain it properly .

The likelihood of a network affil, other than FOX, having the issue is tied in part to their likelihood of having 5.1 reinsertion equipment. The SMALLER the market, the less likely they will have it, and so the less likely they will then see the problem under 6.3/a. LARGER markets are more likely to have the problem on channels other than FOX, assuming the problem happens primarily when 5.1 audio is available.

And the problem may be present without 5.1 audio. All DT audio is AC-3, which is technically nearly identical in some cases and exactly identical in others to DD, so even upconverted SD with 2.0 audio is still using the same framework. But it seems to have buffer overload issues less than 5.1 audio, which makes sense since there is less data involved.

The Terayon splicer used at all FOX affils is, as the name implies, a bit stream splicer, which implies that it is not a switch. This means that what is presented to the exciter is a conglomerate of what is present at the various inputs, not simply "either or". During local insertion there still may be data from FOX's ASI stream present. The splicer must look at all inputs simultaneously in order to choreograph a clean "switch", which is technically not a switch, but PID filtering on the fly.

There have been a number of cases where the splicer presented various decoding problems regardless of what streams were output. And while the splicer is supposed to "bypass" the local station completely when not in local mode, that actually never happens, because there must be local identifiers for Nielsen purposes muxed in at all times. It may also be that the nature of the Teryaon splicer aggravates the problem in 6.3/a, even in local modes.

IOW, just the fact that the DT signal is coming from a FOX station or other station with a Terayon splicer might be enough to make the problem more prevalent, regardless of 5.1 content.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

That makes sense because I see it often on WRAL which is CBS, but they do lots of their own HD content.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> The universe of HR10-s has been conservatively estimated as between 750K and 2 mil.


Where do you get that?


----------



## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> Where do you get that?


Exactly 

D*'s own conference calls put the number of HD subs at around 1M and we know every one doesn't have an HR10.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

herdfan said:


> Exactly
> 
> D*'s own conference calls put the number of HD subs at around 1M and we know every one doesn't have an HR10.


THIS subscriber (me) has TWO HR10s, so I'm ONE subscriber with TWO boxes.

The OP was talking about 16k *users*, but later conversaton turned to how many *boxes* were affected.

Kind of hard to know how many HR10s were affected unless we know hard numbers from DirecTV with breakdowns of their HD boxes (DVR versus non-DVR) and then you'd need to know of the HD DVRs which were HR10 and which were the HR20...


----------



## mluntz (Jul 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> And they are replacing those at their cost. As for the HR10-250, when the times comes you will be given the option to replace yoru HR10...... you will be offered an opportunity to keep it, to use it as an OTA and DirecTV SD DTivo.


So does this mean that if I am patient and wait for all the MPEG4 to be fired up, D* will offer to replace my equipment for free?


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mluntz said:


> So does this mean that if I am patient and wait for all the MPEG4 to be fired up, D* will offer to replace my equipment for free?


Most likely, yes... or for the cost of shipping.


----------



## Baldodome (Jan 12, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Most likely, yes... or for the cost of shipping.


But, I will not be able to use the new receiver to get OTA? I get all my local HD OTA?

What good will a new receiver do me, if I cannot get local HD channels like I do now?


----------



## scott blair (Apr 14, 2003)

Baldodome said:


> But, I will not be able to use the new receiver to get OTA? I get all my local HD OTA?
> 
> What good will a new receiver do me, if I cannot get local HD channels like I do now?


You have to get your local HD channels in the highly compressed reduced quality over the Sat instead.


----------



## Baldodome (Jan 12, 2003)

scott blair said:


> You have to get your local HD channels in the highly compressed reduced quality over the Sat instead.


GREAT! I love what I have now.....Sometimes I just wish they would leave well enough alone.

But, will they be offered in all local markets, or will I be forced to only view a regional station (ie.NYC, LA, etc.....)?

I get Buffalo OTA now. We're not exactlly a large city.


----------



## weaver (Feb 27, 2004)

Baldodome said:


> But, I will not be able to use the new receiver to get OTA? I get all my local HD OTA?
> 
> What good will a new receiver do me, if I cannot get local HD channels like I do now?


The HR20 receives OTA channels.


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Baldodome said:


> But, I will not be able to use the new receiver to get OTA? I get all my local HD OTA?
> 
> What good will a new receiver do me, if I cannot get local HD channels like I do now?


As Weaver said.

The OTA has been enabled on the HR20 for nearly a month now.


----------



## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> As Weaver said.
> 
> The OTA has been enabled on the HR20 for nearly a month now.


And it works quite well, actually. The box may have other issues at this point, but it has a good ATSC tuner.


----------



## iwantmyhdmitv (Sep 24, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> As Weaver said.
> 
> The OTA has been enabled on the HR20 for nearly a month now.


Hi Earl,

Hey, why is 2006 "a year to forget" ?


----------



## Baldodome (Jan 12, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> As Weaver said.
> 
> The OTA has been enabled on the HR20 for nearly a month now.


Great, thanks guys. Last I had heard, there was no OTA on it. Been away from forum for awhile.

I Guess this whole upcoming change will not be as painful as I thought.


----------



## Scott Corbett (May 29, 2003)

Does the HR20 still buffer only one tuner?


----------



## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Scott Corbett said:


> Does the HR20 still buffer only one tuner?


Yes


----------



## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

iwantmyhdmitv said:


> Hi Earl,
> 
> Hey, why is 2006 "a year to forget" ?


Just to answer the question... (and thank you to those that PMed iwantmyhdmitv)
My father (55) passed away very very suddenly in '06... I had a major medical scare (8 weeks later), and my mother had one about 2 months ago... So let's just say, as good as '06 was... I would rather forget it...


----------



## jaycozer (Jan 15, 2007)

I bought(supposedly not leased) the hr10-250 about six months ago and am just ready to buy my first hd tv at Costco. Just been used for sd viewing and recording. When I called directv to upgrade to HD service they told me a new 5lnb they would install would not work with my receiver. They said they would charge me 99 for new 5lnb and new hr20 with a new 2 year contract. I could keep the hr10 to use in another room. I told them I only had one TV and they said they would take the hr10 away. I'll have to fight that own/lease situation with them somehow, I guess. 

If I don't upgrade to their 5lnd option for local HD can I use a 3lnb for their hd content, buy and run a local OTA antena to hr10 and still utilize my my preferred Tivo service. Would this affect recording HD content on local or sat hd channels. I am not clear on how MPEG 4 and MPEG 2 would affect what I want now or in near future:

I want to keep the hr10 I already paid for, watch sd and hd(local or otherwise), and record regularly as I have always done with the great Tivo service I have used for several years.

Confused in San Diego!


----------



## perilous (Apr 2, 2001)

jaycozer said:


> I bought(supposedly not leased) the hr10-250 about six months ago and am just ready to buy my first hd tv at Costco. Just been used for sd viewing and recording. When I called directv to upgrade to HD service they told me a new 5lnb they would install would not work with my receiver. They said they would charge me 99 for new 5lnb and new hr20 with a new 2 year contract. I could keep the hr10 to use in another room. I told them I only had one TV and they said they would take the hr10 away. I'll have to fight that own/lease situation with them somehow, I guess.
> 
> If I don't upgrade to their 5lnd option for local HD can I use a 3lnb for their hd content, buy and run a local OTA antena to hr10 and still utilize my my preferred Tivo service. Would this affect recording HD content on local or sat hd channels. I am not clear on how MPEG 4 and MPEG 2 would affect what I want now or in near future:
> 
> ...


No disrespect, but what does your post have to do with this thread?????


----------



## thepackfan (May 21, 2003)

Add an antenna and your good to go until mpeg4. You could always get the hr20 and sell your hr10 , I think you'd get a couple hundred on this forum or ebay.


----------



## jaycozer (Jan 15, 2007)

Apologies to everyone if I posted in a wrong thread. 

I grew tired of searching and trying to read through so much and I noticed this thread seemed to have a lot about hr10-250.

Thanks for the current suggestion!


----------



## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

rmassey said:


> Yeah, well if they make us sign up for a two year contract, I certainly expect them to have a working hw platform during that contract period. Otherwise I will consider the contract void and take my business elsewhere.
> 
> I agree that there is no basis for a CALS, but they have totally screwed the pooch on the 6.3A/B release. Time to take a walk IMO.


Since you are leaving Directv. I will buy your HR10-250.


----------



## Texceo (Mar 11, 2003)

gquiring said:


> What DirecTV could have done was a better job testing the 6.3 update. They clearly took a back seat on that one.


Since we are all throwing out conspiracy therories. Maybe Tivo sent out this deffective update to get Directv users mad and to switch to the S3 unit!


----------



## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

That's It!


----------

