# PlayLater - TiVo You Need To Do This!!



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

As I have an HTPC attached to my receiver/TV I decided to test out MediaMall's PlayLater software.

*TIVO PAY ATTENTION you need to be providing us with this feature.*

While this software is less than perfect, it shows exactly what TiVo needs to be doing to stand out in the streaming media world.

This software gives you the ability to capture streams from many sources such as hulu, Netflix, SyFy etc. to be viewed latter. This would be a natural for TiVo and give them a one up on other devices.

While those with great Internet connections may not see the advantage (other than being able to skip Hulu's advertisements) for many of us using streaming at peak times is tentative and having the shows on your hard drive is much more of a sure thing.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Downloading content via the internet. Very innovative.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out since they will more than likely get sued.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> This software gives you the ability to capture streams from many sources such as hulu, Netflix, SyFy etc. to be viewed latter.


I'm sure Hulu would just love this and would continue to leave the Hulu+ Tivo app active while users fast forward through Hulu commercials.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

smbaker said:


> I'm sure Hulu would just love this and would continue to leave the Hulu+ Tivo app active while users fast forward through Hulu commercials.


Screw Hulu - if the ignorant content producers would realize that if they gave their customers a reasonable way to get to their content that there is a significant chunk of them that would gladly pay for commercial free content. Or double the monthly Hulu for ad-free - I'll pay it!

Again, like DVRs, this software isn't the problem, but a symptom of the real fundamental problem...


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

Only one major problem with this - it will not schedule recordings. Records only current running programs, which makes it useless as far as I'm concerned.

Email from Playlater.

I am happy to assist you today...It is not possible to record a program 
that is not scheduled to air live until the following day...I see from 
your logs you were trying to record an ESPN3 video...When you select a 
video to record via PlayLater, PlayOn starts transcoding the video 
immediately...If the video doesn't exist yet(which in this case it does 
not) then there is no video for PlayOn to retrieve and an error message 
will be returned.

For a live ESPN3 video you would actually have to select the video after 
it has started.

Thank you for contacting PlayOn support!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> As I have an HTPC attached to my receiver/TV I decided to test out MediaMall's PlayLater software.
> 
> *TIVO PAY ATTENTION you need to be providing us with this feature.*
> 
> ...


TiVo can't afford to go against any media co.s or cable co.s Small co.s can try and if they stay small may get away with it, but TiVo can't do this type of thing, if they could they would have told cable labs *screw it *a long time ago, and not copy protect any programs. Some people may be willing to pay for ad free programs, HBO, etc. are providers that use that model with success, I have no idea if Hulu plus would be succefull with such an ad free model.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen - Tivo won't touch this with a ten-foot pole, they are too busy sucking up to the content providers and the cableCos.


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## aridon (Aug 31, 2006)

The only way you will see this happening is via a hack or other nefarious method. hulu and netflix will terminate your account and likely sue any company that pushes this to market.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aridon said:


> The only way you will see this happening is via a hack or other nefarious method. hulu and netflix will terminate your account and likely sue any company that pushes this to market.


Funny it works as advertised on my HTPC no hacking, no nefarious method just download and use the currently free (monthly subscription fee coming soon) PlayLater software. I am not saying they will not get sued but it seems like they would have done a little legal research before spending the money to develop the software. It will be interesting to see if they do run into any legal issues. I can not really see paying for the service, I don't have Netflix and will be dropping Hulu+ when the free trial runs out. But if I were going to be using streaming allot I would want something like this.

Thanks,


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Funny it works as advertised on my HTPC no hacking, no nefarious method just download and use the currently free (monthly subscription fee coming soon) PlayLater software


That's because comparatively few people are doing it. If it were to become mainstream, with a company such as Tivo, that's when the problems would become evident.



docno said:


> Screw Hulu - if the ignorant content producers would realize that if they gave their customers a reasonable way to get to their content that there is a significant chunk of them that would gladly pay for commercial free content. Or double the monthly Hulu for ad-free - I'll pay it!


If one wants to argue that Hulu should offer commercial-free service, then that's a separate issue. I personally wouldn't pay money for Hulu+ due to the commercials. I'm already doing that (paying to receive commercials) with comcast. I don't need to repeat the same with Hulu.

I fully agree that offering a commercial-free pay service is the way for Hulu to go. But, they don't. Unlike the traditional networks, Hulu does control the chain of distribution, all the way down into the app the runs on your device.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> Funny it works as advertised on my HTPC no hacking, no nefarious method just download and use the currently free (monthly subscription fee coming soon) PlayLater software. I am not saying they will not get sued but it seems like they would have done a little legal research before spending the money to develop the software. It will be interesting to see if they do run into any legal issues. I can not really see paying for the service, I don't have Netflix and will be dropping Hulu+ when the free trial runs out. But if I were going to be using streaming allot I would want something like this.
> 
> Thanks,


Can you put the downloads into the TiVo Desktop "My TiVo Recordings" directory and copy them to a TiVo to watch them on a television instead of a computer?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

unitron said:


> Can you put the downloads into the TiVo Desktop "My TiVo Recordings" directory and copy them to a TiVo to watch them on a television instead of a computer?


I do not believe so. My HTPC is attached to the same receiver that my TiVos are so I have not messed with moving recordings around but part of the reason "Play Later" claims it is legal to record the streams is that the software locks the records down with DRM. So I am assuming there is no way to play them on anything but the device they are recorded on without some kind of hack.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo can't do this because it's illegal and they would get sued out of existence.

Little companies can get away with selling software that does stuff like this because they're small and have no real money. If a big company like TiVo did something like this they would get a lawsuit slapped on them almost immediately.

Dan


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo can't do this because it's illegal and they would get sued out of existence.
> 
> Little companies can get away with selling software that does stuff like this because they're small and have no real money. If a big company like TiVo did something like this they would get a lawsuit slapped on them almost immediately.
> 
> Dan


also, of what value on the TiVo is it. The value on a PC would be a laptop where you could watch the video where you have no internet connection like on a trip or at lunch. The TiVo is pretty much in place and not moving. so streaming Netflix now or later is the same thing. if you have some streaming issue then either get that fixed or use an alternative like Amazon UNBOX that does download the movie to be played later.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> also, of what value on the TiVo is it. The value on a PC would be a laptop where you could watch the video where you have no internet connection like on a trip or at lunch. The TiVo is pretty much in place and not moving. so streaming Netflix now or later is the same thing. if you have some streaming issue then either get that fixed or use an alternative like Amazon UNBOX that does download the movie to be played later.


There several values I could see if TiVo could do this without being sued to death.


Allows off peak down loads for homes that maybe streaming to multiple TVs and not have the bandwidth to handle it. It is easy to say "switch" but many of us still have only 1 high speed Internet option you take it or leave it or move. 
Allows you to watch the TV though the TiVo UI not the Netflix, Hulu, etc app.
Allows the user to save programs for latter viewing that maybe rotating out of Hule, Netflix ect.

Thanks,


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm not seeing the advantage, like the OP says. The vast majority of us can watch it streamed. Unless you have a crappy internet connection, I don't see the point.

BTW, Amazon on-demand works exactly like this, downloads the content before you can watch it. It was worthless to me who didn't want to wait an hour to start watching a movie.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

lessd said:


> ...TiVo can't do this type of thing, if they could they would have told cable labs *screw it *a long time ago, and not copy protect any programs.


In that case they wouldn't have been bucking CableLabs; it's a Federal offense--violation of copyright law put in place by the DMCA--to sell (or even give away) any device which ignores a copy protection mechanism. Those copy protection mechanisms weren't put in the CableCARD spec for grins and chuckles--they were put there by government fiat in order to insure the success of the digital transition by keeping content providers happy and willing to transmit perfectly reproducible digital versions of their content into homes over cable.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm not seeing the advantage, like the OP says. The vast majority of us can watch it streamed. Unless you have a crappy internet connection, I don't see the point.
> 
> BTW, Amazon on-demand works exactly like this, downloads the content before you can watch it. It was worthless to me who didn't want to wait an hour to start watching a movie.


There are plenty of download video rental services. Microsoft's Zune Video Marketplace titles can be either stream or download. The advantage of downloading is that you can get the highest quality high bandwidth version of the title even if you don't have the network to support streaming the video at that quality level. You have to wait several hours, but you can get a 10 Mbps HD copy of a film over your 3 Mbps connection.

That wouldn't seem to be the case with this--you can record stuff, but at no higher quality that you can stream it, so if you have a slow connection you can only make crappy slow-connection-quality recordings.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> In that case they wouldn't have been bucking CableLabs; it's a Federal offense--violation of copyright law put in place by the DMCA--to sell (or even give away) any device which ignores a copy protection mechanism.


That is an oversimplification, there are still exceptions allowed for fair use (for example, extracting a clip from a DVD to use it in a nonprofit documentary).

Stripping the DRM from an ebook to hack the bit that prevents read-aloud is even considered a fair use and is exempt. In principle, is that so different from stripping the do-not-copy bit from a protected broadcast that prevents me from watching it in my bedroom?

What someone needs to do, is press the issue to see whether making a "backup copy" of a program which one has legally purchased, is a fair use and is therefore exempt from the DCMA. Similarly, is timeshifting and/or placeshifting of a legally purchased program a fair use?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Similarly, is timeshifting and/or placeshifting of a legally purchased program a fair use?


This doesn't answer your question, and based upon your answer you probably already know this, but...

Timeshifting of content *is* legally protected, via the Sony/Universal "VCR case". However, that is only for timeshifting, and they purposely do not legitimize "librarying" (i.e. recording for keeps). That does not mean it's illegal, just that it hasn't been decided either way.

BTW, I would use something like this too (if it were legal), and I think it WOULD be useful on a Tivo. Trying to 8 second skip back a netflix stream is annoying as heck.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mattack said:


> BTW, I would use something like this too (if it were legal), and I think it WOULD be useful on a Tivo. Trying to 8 second skip back a netflix stream is annoying as heck.


then use Amazon. Also the skipback is actually the one useful interface part of Netflix on TiVo. The Wii has no such option and moving around in the stream is pretty much a hassle


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo can't do this because it's illegal and they would get sued out of existence.


True.

And, given that TiVo can't even get our own YouTube playlists to work properly (which would also give us similar "play later" workflow,) I have no confidence they'd be able to pull anything else remotely similar off. Nearly every other set top box (heck even the iPhone's YouTube app) supports user playlists. TiVo YouTube app has been broken for over two years. No one's minding the store.

Imagine if we had a bookmarklet from the likes of WatchLater. We'd tag an online video, then be able to access that same video on TV via TiVo. If the iPad can do it, I don't see why TiVo couldn't, too.

I was hoping that YouTube videos would work at the very least, using playlists... but obviously that's just not in the cards. <sigh>


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> then use Amazon. Also the skipback is actually the one useful interface part of Netflix on TiVo. The Wii has no such option and moving around in the stream is pretty much a hassle


Wii has best system for moving around in the stream. DRag that cursor anywhere in the timeline near instantly. PLus it shows enough frames to judge what scene you are in.

Don't think there is a 10 second skip back so Tivo might be better there.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> Wii has best system for moving around in the stream. DRag that cursor anywhere in the timeline near instantly. PLus it shows enough frames to judge what scene you are in.
> 
> Don't think there is a 10 second skip back so Tivo might be better there.


Purely by accident, I found that the Premiere can also navigate to anywhere in a Netflix playback timeline by using the RPC protocol.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> Wii has best system for moving around in the stream. DRag that cursor anywhere in the timeline near instantly. PLus it shows enough frames to judge what scene you are in.
> 
> Don't think there is a 10 second skip back so Tivo might be better there.


oh you can zoom around to anywhere in the playback. The hard part is getting to some specific spot you want.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Gosh. Another feature an HTPC can do that a Tivo can't. Who'd a thunk it? All that and no outrageous monthly fees.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Gosh. Another feature an HTPC can do that a Tivo can't. Who'd a thunk it? All that and no outrageous monthly fees.


I really should go out and plunk 1,000 down on a HTPC and then take the rest of the summer playing with the features

or

I can use that time to watch the shows my TiVo DVR records with rock solid reliability


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah, as much as we razz this company for it's missing features and missteps, I still have yet to see an HTPC that has the same ease-of-use, reliability and pick-up-the-remote-and-start-enjoying-TV'ness as a TiVo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Fofer said:


> Yeah, as much as we razz this company for it's missing features and missteps, I still have yet to see an HTPC that has the same ease-of-use, reliability and pick-up-the-remote-and-start-enjoying-TV'ness as a TiVo.


It's apparent that you haven't seen mine. It's every bit as easy to use as my Tivo. I was a Tivo fanatic for well over a decade until I started using an HTPC for recording. Initially, I used my DirecTivos for DirecTV recordings and the HTPC for my OTA locals. The advantage of having an almost limitless number of tuners in one box was a huge plus. I was using BeyondTV at the time so there was no limit on the tuner count, as with WMC (a limitation that is easily circumvented).

I switched over to FIOS over 3-1/2 years ago and picked up a couple of S3 Tivos to use with it. When the Ceton InfiniTV4 tuners came out I made the switch to WMC and stopped using my Tivos altogether. WMC has all the features I ever used with my Tivos and more. Granted, it may not be for everyone, depending on how you use your Tivo, but a stable, working HTPC is a joy to use (and it's not as hard as you think to get an HTPC working this way). The ability to stream Blu-Ray movies from my server with full HD audio puts it head and shoulders above any other DVR, IMHO.

A Tivo is basically a DVR with a lot of extra bells and whistles that may or may not be attractive to you. Most of them aren't for me. My HTPC has become the perfect all-in-one solution for the way I watch TV. Obviously, YMMV. There are lots of pros and cons for both solutions so it's best to choose what works for you. One of the most attractive features for me is that I will never have to pay any monthly fees for a DVR service and there are no lifetime subscriptions required. A single M-card rental gets me twice the nuimber of digital tuners that any current Tivo model offers.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

What's the total cost of that HTPC? Please include hardware, software, and time spent setting it up. For comparison's sake, I paid about $370 for my TiVo Premiere... and yes, that includes a lifetime subscription. I'm pretty sure I paid about $80 more for the 2TB hard drive upgrade.

I have seen a bunch of very advanced HTPC setups and none of them (even the most expensive) is as easy and "fool proof" as the TiVo Premiere I've been sticking with. The folks showing them off may THINK they're perfect, but when it's demo time they start fumbling and hemming and hawing and making excuses when things don't work correctly or as easily as a TV/DVR should. Sure, it may be easy for them when they're alone, but not so easy when someone else tries to fiddle with it, or some variable has changed. In short... very low "WAF" (Wife Acceptance Factor.)

That being said, I'm not a TV junkie and I rarely, if ever, find the need for more than two tuners. Maybe that's the difference here. My desires and needs are pretty basic. I've also very little interest in making my home theater another tech project to stress over. I just want reliability (and the iPad app is pretty freakin' sweet.) 

Oh well. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. YMMV indeed...


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Gosh. Another feature an HTPC can do that a Tivo can't. Who'd a thunk it? All that and no outrageous monthly fees.


Ahem... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8605042#post8605042


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Fofer said:


> What's the total cost of that HTPC? Please include hardware, software, and time spent setting it up. For comparison's sake, I paid about $370 for my TiVo Premiere... and yes, that includes a lifetime subscription. I'm pretty sure I paid about $80 more for the 2TB hard drive upgrade.
> 
> I have seen a bunch of very advanced HTPC setups and none of them (even the most expensive) is as easy and "fool proof" as the TiVo Premiere I've been sticking with. The folks showing them off may THINK they're perfect, but when it's demo time they start fumbling and hemming and hawing and making excuses when things don't work correctly or as easily as a TV/DVR should. Sure, it may be easy for them when they're alone, but not so easy when someone else tries to fiddle with it, or some variable has changed. In short... very low "WAF" (Wife Acceptance Factor.)
> 
> ...


You got a lifetimed Premiere for $370?

I don't think we can use you as a statistical average for this comparison.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yeah, I got the Premiere (refurb) off Woot.com for $65 (including $5 shipping) and lifetime service was $299. So it really was $364 total.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

unitron said:


> You got a lifetimed Premiere for $370?
> 
> I don't think we can use you as a statistical average for this comparison.


People have picked them up even cheaper, around $249, but you can buy a Lifetime Premiere for about $475 or so on a daily basis.

Most who bought the Woot refurbs were able to get $299 lifetime before the price increase of lifetime but just after TiVo dropped the hardware prices.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Of course now Hauppage just announced on their Facebook page a two tuner cablecard option for $129 and I believe they said it has passed cable labs certification so we should see it in the next few months.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> People have picked them up even cheaper, around $249


Including lifetime service?



innocentfreak said:


> Most who bought the Woot refurbs were able to get $299 lifetime before the price increase of lifetime but just after TiVo dropped the hardware prices.


Yes, my quoted $364 price included the lifetime sub; I got a Woot refurb.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Fofer said:


> Including lifetime service?
> 
> Yes, my quoted $364 price included the lifetime sub; I got a Woot refurb.


Yeah. They grabbed the $50 TiVos from electronics expo during some random sale plus coupon for additional % off and then by calling in to TiVo were able to use the $199 upgrade offer. There was a thread about it on here and not everyone got it but more than a handfull on here and slickdeals got it.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Even today's price of $475 (that you mentioned) compares rather favorably to a "DIY HTPC" that doesn't have nearly the same "reliable set-top-boxness" of a TiVo. 

I certainly see the appeal of building my own flexible "open" box... I'm a tinkerer and hobbyist hacker. I've enjoyed many a project of that ilk. For whatever reason though when it comes to TV watching, I don't want to have to deal with any of that. I just want to veg out on the couch and know that shows I set to record, *did* record, and that I can start watching them with the absolute minimum of fuss.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah I keep toying with adding a HTPC but have yet to find a justifiable reason. Last time I did it I never used it, but that was before CableCARD tuners. 

Now if TiVo supported WTV files it would be a different story.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I was also one of those lucky few who got a Premiere with lifetime for a very low cost ($295 for me). I also built a very low end HTPC after I purchased the Premiere mostly just for something to do over the winter.

The HTPC cost me more than my Premiere with lifetime did and I didn't put any tuners in the HTPC. It is permanently connected via HDMI to my receiver and I use it for streaming and sometimes general Internet stuff. I can not compare it directly to my TiVo as I don't use the HTPC as a normal DVR, but I am using the PlayLater software I mentioned when I started this thread, which is similar to a DVR.

Bottom line is that my TiVos are easier to use for most things. I like using Pandora and downloading various pod casts on my Premiere better than the HTPC. I like Hulu better on the HTPC and of course the HTPC can access more stuff than the TiVo. I also have the boxee box software on the HTPC and like using it like as a boxee box.

I think many people would *not* find the HTPC an acceptable "whole family" device, but I am fine with it. Even if I added tuners to the HTPC and it could completely replace my TiVos I would still pick the TiVos over the HTPC.

Thanks,


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I have both setups in my house and both are acceptable as 'whole family' devices, but Tivos are easier to use, more reliable, and have better quality guide data on a daily basis.

I think now that the Cablecard tuner options have increased for PCs (and cost is going way down), the HTPC is a compelling alternative to more than a couple of Tivos. I think the HTPC is probably a better deal too when you factor in that you only need to rent one card.

Having said that, there have been rumblings/rumors over at AVS and elsewhere that Microsoft's commitment to WMC may be waning to the point that it may not be included in Windows 8. It's certainly not a feature that they've ever tried to sell anyone on, and their decision not to allow PCs to act as extenders to a single recording PC didn't help. Anyone that counts on getting free guide data forever for WMC might be left high and dry if they do discontinue it, but again these are only rumors right now.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> I think the HTPC is probably a better deal too when you factor in that you only need to rent one card.


The only one of 5 HD TiVo models for which you have t orent more than a single CableCARD is the first, TiVo S3. (They intended for it to work with a single card but had to finalize their design before they had shipping CCs to test with and goofed up somehow).


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I was talking about a couple of Tivos or more, not one. There is a 6-tuner Ceton card coming out which would only need one card.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd have to agree with atmuscarella's comment about the acceptability of an HTPC as a whole family device. Then again, it mainly depends on how accepting your family is of new technology. My wife still yells at me when the TV in the bedroom doesn't work because she selected the wrong input accidentally. Trying to teach her to use a media extender was an exercise in futility, even though it's relatively simple to use.

An HTPC can be as simple or as complicated as you make it. The UI for WMC is no more difficult to navigate and use than a Tivo. Setting up recordings is easy and about the same as a Tivo. As a basic DVR, WMC and Tivo are on an even plane, IMHO. Tivo may have a slight edge in some areas, but mostly for features I never use. This seems to be the area where some people balk at the thought of an HTPC because some Tivo features are more important to them. To each his own.

HTPC cost vs. a Tivo all depends on what you put into it. A new Premiere with lifetime can run you anywhare from about $300-600 if I have my numbers right. A basic HTPC can be had for as low as $350-500. Toss in a Ceton InfiniTV4 for another $300 and you've got the same power as two S3/HD/Premiere Tivos. The area where an HTPC has a clearcut cost advantage is when you start adding more tuners. You can buy an InfiniTV4 for less than the cost of lifetime service on a single Tivo. Now that both SiliconDust and Hauppauge have added their own cablecard tuners into the mix, there are now lots of choices for configuring an HTPC for digital cable or FIOS.

HTPCs based on a min-ITX platform can have an extremely small form factor and can be built to be quieter than a Tivo. Intel has a new Media Series mini-ITX motherboard (DH61AG) that looks like a great HTPC candidate when used with one of their new Sandy Bridge CPUs. It's got onboard HD audio and video via HDMI with low power consumption.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'd have to agree with atmuscarella's comment about the acceptability of an HTPC as a whole family device. Then again, it mainly depends on how accepting your family is of new technology. My wife still yells at me when the TV in the bedroom doesn't work because she selected the wrong input accidentally. Trying to teach her to use a media extender was an exercise in futility, even though it's relatively simple to use.


and there is the rub for me. I have finally gotten my family used to there being different inputs on the TV but even at that they really do not pay attention to watching something from the buffer versus the recording from the drive and so on. Also the TiVo is just there when they go to the input. If it is down, I get the call. I really have no desire to get called into the room because the PC or extender is not doing what "they expect". Or worse yet get to sit down at 8 or 9PM with the family to watch a show and find a dark screen on the TV.

It would be on Microsoft or Google or whomever is presenting the DVR software to make that experience easier and frankly Microsoft is like Apple and shows no desire to really pursue the DVR market. Google is, as always, unclear on what they intend to do likely because they just move along in whatever direction seems best at the time. TiVo is the only company with a real focus on standalone DVRs


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm not sure how much easier you want it to be. Once you've got Media Center set up, which simply involves going through an interactive list of options similar to a Tivo, it plain works. When it comes right down to it, an HTPC is really no different than a Tivo for DVR functionality. They're both computers that store recorded videos on a hard drive. The main difference is that one uses Linux and the other uses Windows.

The interface that the user sees is nothing more than an interactive menu system that you navigate using a remote. The only noticeable difference your family will see will be the lack of the Tivo noises when you hit the remote. WMC has it's own sound effects that aren't all that much different.

Windows 7 is the most stable platform Microsoft has ever developed. The key is not to update it with everything that comes down the pike. If the drivers work, leave it alone. The only thing you should do as far as updates are the critical updates that Microsoft recommends. I like to have Win 7 download the updates and then I pick and choose the ones I want installed.

I know that it's difficult to get family members to embrace anything they deem as alien to them so I'm not suggesting that an HTPC should replace a Tivo for the rest of the household. I've tried that experiment too many times to want deal with the fallout. My lifetime S3 Tivo is now retired to the family room to act as the HD tuner for my 42" Sony display monitor. The wife feels comfortable with it so that's where it will reside. The HTPC is my toy to use and I couldn't be happier.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Back to the original subject, well, sort of.....

Has anyone use Playlater or other download manager type software to store a copy of a netflix, hulu or amazon prime stream for later viewing or even conversion to tivo?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've tried that experiment too many times to want deal with the fallout. My lifetime S3 Tivo is now retired to the family room to act as the HD tuner for my 42" Sony display monitor. The wife feels comfortable with it so that's where it will reside. The HTPC is my toy to use and I couldn't be happier.


My very point, save that I am not looking for an HTPC toy


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> The only thing you should do as far as updates are the critical updates that Microsoft recommends. I like to have Win 7 download the updates and then I pick and choose the ones I want installed.


I like to use a set top box that doesn't ever have any "critical updates" or even put me in the position of having to decide which update to skip and which to accept/install. That sounds like more work and maintenance to me. I want an appliance, not another computer. I have plenty of those and don't want to rely on one for leisurely TV enjoyment.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> Back to the original subject, well, sort of.....
> 
> Has anyone use Playlater or other download manager type software to store a copy of a netflix, hulu or amazon prime stream for later viewing or even conversion to tivo?


I have been using PlayLater for recording from Hulu. It seems to work just fine, the easiest way to use it is to add stuff to your Hulu Queue that you want to record. PlayLater brings up your Hulu Queue and it is just a few clicks to record whatever you want.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Fofer said:


> I like to use a set top box that doesn't ever have any "critical updates" or even put me in the position of having to decide which update to skip and which to accept/install. That sounds like more work and maintenance to me. I want an appliance, not another computer. I have plenty of those and don't want to rely on one for leisurely TV enjoyment.


Well, I could set up my HTPC to take whatever updates come along automatically, just like a Tivo does. The only problem I see with a Tivo in this area is that you're forced to take whatever updates they send to your DVR.

As with any Windows PC, Tivo updates can sometimes cause more problems than they fix so whether you want to admit it or not, you're still using a PC with limited functionality. In fact, a Tivo is basically a computer that runs a media center-type of frontend with access to numerous apps like NetFlix and Hulu as well as many others. With a properly configured HTPC, it behaves just like a Tivo and can be completely trouble-free. My HTPC is an appliance just like a Tivo, only with far more flexibility. It sounds more like you've had bad experiences with PCs and are just reluctant to test the waters. I never thought I'd use one either until I gave it a try. Windows 7 Media Center is the best thing to come along in quite a while and it's rock steady.

Windows updates are sent out only a few times a month so it's not like I'm doing constant maintenance on my PC. I'm not forced into taking any updates I don't want and I can install them at my leisure. I always have Media Center up and running so the only time I see anything regarding updates is when I exit Media Center and go to my Windows desktop, which isn't all that often.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

IIRC, $20/year gets you guide data licensed to your whole household (not just one computer) from Schedules Direct.

A lot of ReplayTV owners plan to use the above for guide data (using WinRS to serve) after 7/31.



slowbiscuit said:


> Anyone that counts on getting free guide data forever for WMC might be left high and dry if they do discontinue it, but again these are only rumors right now.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> As with any Windows PC, Tivo updates can sometimes cause more problems than they fix so whether you want to admit it or not, you're still using a PC with limited functionality.


You gloss over the most important point. A TiVo is a known hardware and installed software configuration, so it's a lot easier to test updates before releasing them. And while I've rarely had issues with Windows updates, I have had several over the years caused by third-party device drivers, anti-virus packages, browser plug-ins and the like. Meanwhile, in all my years with TiVo (since my DirecTiVo SA-T60) I've only tripped over one problem with a TiVo software update. And even that didn't prevent my TiVo from working as a DVR; it was a problem with losing MAKs.

I know other people have had problems with things like season passes failing to record episodes, but I never had that problem myself.

Not that TiVo scheduling is without faults; it still takes orders of magnitude too long to update the "To Do" list after modifying the season pass list, and interactions with changes like that and manually removing episodes from the list could be greatly improved. It's too easy to end up with episodes being dropped, and while I can understand what is going wrong that's no excuse for poor programming in the first place.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> You gloss over the most important point. A TiVo is a known hardware and installed software configuration, so it's a lot easier to test updates before releasing them.


That may be true, but it's the very reason why I also don't own a Mac. The reason Macs are so stable is because you have no choices for configuring a Mac once you've bought it. You get a fixed configuration with the drivers (i.e. known as kernel extensions to Mac users) they give you, period. If you want to change the configuration you have to buy a different Mac.

One of the main reasons I stuck with Tivos for so many years is because the hacking community found ways to modify the Tivo OS to allow for extra features to be added. Last time I checked, this was not the case for the Premiere. Tivo incorporates more stringent security measures with each new hardware platform they introduce, making it more difficult to hack them with every new model. Perhaps it's pressure from the studios to prevent circumvention of anti-copying measures and prevent illegal distribution of copyrighted programming, but it has all but eliminated the very reason for owning a Tivo in my case.

With an HTPC, you can configure it anyway you like, but there are potential issues with incompatible drivers and such. That's the price you pay for flexibility. One I'll gladly pay for the freedom and flexibility it gives me. FWIW, there's absolutely no compelling reason why you ever need to allow your PC to accept and install updates if you don't want it to.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

elprice7345 said:


> Nice setup!


Nice spammer!


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## backell (Jul 18, 2011)

What the heck is an HTPC?


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

backell said:


> What the heck is an HTPC?


Home Theater Personal Computer.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

backell said:


> What the heck is an HTPC?


It's a PC with a frontend app that provides a means to view and listen to a variety of multimedia formats, such as DVR recording, watching videos of various formats, live TV, digital photo galleries, digital music, and lots of others. Windows 7 has the Media Center feature included in all versions of Win 7 except Home Basic. It has built-in DVR software that allows your PC to work like a Tivo with the addition of a tuner. There are various types of tuners available for recording and viewing OTA (Over-the-Air) channels (ATSC and NTSC), clear QAM (unscrambled digital cable) and digital cable or FIOS channels with the use of a cablecard. You can view all sorts of video formats like wmv (Windows 7 recorded format), mkv, avi, mpg, DVDs and Blu-Rays and many others. Some formats require the installation of one or more codecs, but the Shark007 codec pack contains just about everything you'll need for the complete multimedia experience.

Third party apps like Cyberlink's PowerDVD or Arcsoft's Total Media Theater allow you to play Blu-Ray discs from an internal drive, from a ripped Blu-Ray folder, or from an iso file that automatically mounts in a virtual drive and begins playback when I select the title for viewing. I can stream Blu-Rays stored on my server to my HTPC by simply clicking on the movie title. I am able to watch them in full 1080p with the HD audio soundtracks.

There are several apps that let you catalog your movies and DVDs and pull in cover art and descriptions so you can browse them from within Media Center. I can access all of my recorded shows, movies, and any other type of multimedia files without ever having to exit Media Center. Recording TV shows is very similar to using a Tivo. You can do searches and set up season passes and wishlists, similar to a Tivo. I also have an app that automatically scans my recorded shows and maps the commercials. I can have it automatically skip the commercials for seamless playback or I can skip right past the commercial break with the single push of a button on my remote. I can also watch NetFlix and other forms of internet TV in Media Center.

The nice thing about an HTPC is that you can customize it to your heart's content. There are lots of apps and tweaks you can install to do just about anything you want.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Plediewcect said:


> Hello I need peaceful inhouse job and I looked at all the sites more times than I'd care to recall and sent off hundreds of resumes. However, i have not been able to find a single good response to my resumes. If anyone knows about any particular place that provides inhouse job search advice, please reply me with the location details. I will be thankful to you for your early response.


Well, I'm not really sure, but I do know for certain that posting in a thread about video archiving software for Home Theater PC's, in a sub-forum about TiVo set-top boxes, in a community forum dedicated to discussion about this particular brand of DVR, is probably the _least_ best place on the Internet to post, looking for an "in-house attorney job."

Seriously, dude. How did you get here? Are you reading the words surrounding the text entry box where you're typing? If not, that might have something to do with your poor return rate.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> In that case they wouldn't have been bucking CableLabs; it's a Federal offense--violation of copyright law put in place by the DMCA--to sell (or even give away) any device which ignores a copy protection mechanism. Those copy protection mechanisms weren't put in the CableCARD spec for grins and chuckles--they were put there by government fiat in order to insure the success of the digital transition by keeping content providers happy and willing to transmit perfectly reproducible digital versions of their content into homes over cable.


Not sure that accurately presents things. The FCC attempted to regulate the broadcast flag to "ensure the succes of the digital broadcast transition" and was slapped down by the courts. As far as I understand broadcast TV is still allowed to add the flag to their content but no one is required to pay any attention to it.

Anyway cable labs and the people that license content to cable all have their own license agreements and violating those would likely be illegal.

And i think breaking encrytption is illegal by dmca under certain conditions. But blowing off flag bits seems not to be illegal.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Honestly, I'd avoid this company like the plague. For me, they set up an 'auto-renewing' subscription and their website wouldn't allow me to cancel. They have no phone number for support.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> And i think breaking encrytption is illegal by dmca under certain conditions. But blowing off flag bits seems not to be illegal.


There's no "blowing off a flag" involved here. Copy One Generation content is provided by the cable company on the line encrypted with a proprietary system. CableCARDs decrypt it and re-encrypt with a standard system called DFAST to pass it back across its interface to the host (TiVo). In accordance with licensing restrictions that TiVo and all other CableCARD implementing OEMs have to sign in order to implement CableCARD and use DFAST to decrypt content received from CableCARDs, they can only handle that decrypted content in certain explicitly permitted ways. (You can read the DFAST license agreement here).

But you're right--it wouldn't so much be a violation of the DMCA, but a violation of their DFAST and CableCARD licenses which could (would) result in termination of those licenses and the inability to manufacture any more CableCARD devices.

But there are other "flags", like CGMS-A and Macrovision Colorstripe, which recording devices are required to pay attention to; I don't think that any DVD recorder on the market in the US will ignore those mechanism and I'm fairly certain that ignoring them is a violation of the DMCA. (One of the things that the DFAST license requires is the application of an approved analog protection mechanism to output of protected content over analog connections. I wonder if computer video capture cards are required to pay attention to those flags?).

The Broadcast Flag was kind of a special case, since the FCC was widely overstepping its bounds by trying to require that even computer hardwae pay attention to these flags; they were slapped down by the courts.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

PlayLater is still around, I purchased a lifetime license. I couldn't conclude the software is illegal, the concept of timeshifting should pertain to internet TV received in your home so if no digital copy protection is being circumvented, nothing illegal should be happening is my guess. Of course that doesn't mean the sites can't take measures to prevent the software from working which would make it worthless but life is full of chances. I like the software really well, it works the way I hoped it would work and it is simple to use. 

The only value comes from downloading programming that will not be available for viewing long and programming to be viewed when no internet connection is available, to take with you on a laptop primarily. I don't have Netflix or Hulu Plus or Amazon Prime or any other monthly pay service to know if it works, if it does, recording a few thousand shows and cancel the subscription for a few years might be an option. I have been using it with Hulu, Comedy Central, The Food Network and a few others. I did test it with Amazon Instant Video and it worked but I don't care to use it with that service, I can just download those programs to a TiVo, much better option.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Gosh. Another feature an HTPC can do that a Tivo can't. Who'd a thunk it? All that and no outrageous monthly fees.


It's not useful for an HTPC. The only time it's useful for an HTPC is if you record something off of netflix, for example, that's going away and don't want to watch it till later. Otherwise, why not just stream the movie? Why download it?

Playlater is used for installing on a laptop and then recording the video then taking the laptop with you.

I thought the same thing you did... but without decoding the video and otherwise altering it, you can't copy it to a mobile device. It's stuck on the device where you install playlater.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> It's not useful for an HTPC. The only time it's useful for an HTPC is if you record something off of netflix, for example, that's going away and don't want to watch it till later. Otherwise, why not just stream the movie? Why download it?
> 
> Playlater is used for installing on a laptop and then recording the video then taking the laptop with you.
> 
> I thought the same thing you did... but without decoding the video and otherwise altering it, you can't copy it to a mobile device. It's stuck on the device where you install playlater.


PlayOn/PlayLater can stream to a variety of devices on the same network, e.g Roku, Google TV. However when streaming that way the only player controls you have are pause, stop and play (no skip, fast-forward or seek). That makes it next to useless IMHO. (I'm currently free-trialing it.)
I was watching a 2 hr recording and it froze at 1.5 hours. The only choice is to restart and watch the entire recording -- forget it! PlayOn support confirmed that seeking and fast-forward are not available when streaming to another device. When you play back on the same machine that made the PlayLater recording you get all the trick play controls. Their explanation is it's because of the transcoding that is involved. I don't believe that is an insurmountable issue, although I'm sure it would take more coding effort. In fact I believe Stream Baby Stream solves this exact same issue. Anyway, as you say, it looks useful primarily for a laptop to take recordings on trips.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

dlfl said:


> PlayOn/PlayLater can stream to a variety of devices on the same network, e.g Roku, Google TV. However when streaming that way the only player controls you have are pause, stop and play (no skip, fast-forward or seek). That makes it next to useless IMHO. (I'm currently free-trialing it.)
> I was watching a 2 hr recording and it froze at 1.5 hours. The only choice is to restart and watch the entire recording -- forget it! PlayOn support confirmed that seeking and fast-forward are not available when streaming to another device. When you play back on the same machine that made the PlayLater recording you get all the trick play controls. Their explanation is it's because of the transcoding that is involved. I don't believe that is an insurmountable issue, although I'm sure it would take more coding effort. In fact I believe Stream Baby Stream solves this exact same issue. Anyway, as you say, it looks useful primarily for a laptop to take recordings on trips.


Since the computer has to be running anyway to use it, I just connected the computer to the HD display and use PlayLater that way most often. There just aren't any single box solutions that do everything I need but the TiVo/Google TV/PS3/PC seems to cover everything so I have a 4 box solution. Accessing PlayLater with Google TV or the PS3 requires being careful, just hit pause and play, nothing else. PlayLater works well enough for the other rooms to make it much better than next to useless in my opinion.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

dlfl said:


> PlayOn/PlayLater can stream to a variety of devices on the same network, e.g Roku, Google TV.


Yes. But there's no advantage to PlayLater vs PlayOn when doing this. It's virtually the same to the end device.



> However when streaming that way the only player controls you have are pause, stop and play (no skip, fast-forward or seek). That makes it next to useless IMHO. (I'm currently free-trialing it.)


Not true. PlayOn features fast forward and rewind. PlayLater does not due to the encoding.



> I was watching a 2 hr recording and it froze at 1.5 hours. The only choice is to restart and watch the entire recording -- forget it! PlayOn support confirmed that seeking and fast-forward are not available when streaming to another device. When you play back on the same machine that made the PlayLater recording you get all the trick play controls. Their explanation is it's because of the transcoding that is involved. I don't believe that is an insurmountable issue, although I'm sure it would take more coding effort. In fact I believe Stream Baby Stream solves this exact same issue. Anyway, as you say, it looks useful primarily for a laptop to take recordings on trips.


Right. But it's important to keep in mind, the limits you describe are for PlayLater NOT for PLayOn.

I've been a loyal user of PlayOn for almost 3 years now and PlayLater for only a few months.

PlayOn is a great product. PlayLater is really meh. It's just lacking the portability it needs to have unless you install it on a laptop.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Since the computer has to be running anyway to use it, I just connected the computer to the HD display and use PlayLater that way most often. There just aren't any single box solutions that do everything I need but the TiVo/Google TV/PS3/PC seems to cover everything so I have a 4 box solution. Accessing PlayLater with Google TV or the PS3 requires being careful, just hit pause and play, nothing else. PlayLater works well enough for the other rooms to make it much better than next to useless in my opinion.


Again, what benefit does PlayLater give you over PlayOn in those situations?

PlayOn seems strictly better unless your internet is awful and you can't stream.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> Again, what benefit does PlayLater give you over PlayOn in those situations?
> 
> PlayOn seems strictly better unless your internet is awful and you can't stream.


Several things come to mind for me.

1. Record to laptop for times away from Wi-Fi.

2. Record programs that won't be available to stream for long and watch later.

3. Watch recorded programs when bandwidth is needed for something else, one example would be someone else in the house is streaming Vudu HDX.

4. PlayLater works as well as PlayOn streaming when used with the same computer running PlayOn/PlayLater. My girlfriend can just pick a program from many on the my recordings list instead of sorting through the PlayOn channels trying to find something. I have already recorded Chopped, Cupcake Wars, etc. for her so she has one list for everything. When I was installing this "crap we don't need", I didn't think I would ever hear the end of it but I made sure to show her how useful it is after installed and she loves it, very easy for her to use. It is even better than I thought it would be. We already have a house full of stuff she either can't use or didn't want, this product and TiVo are things she uses.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> .....Not true. PlayOn features fast forward and rewind. PlayLater does not due to the encoding.
> .......
> Right. But it's important to keep in mind, the limits you describe are for PlayLater NOT for PLayOn.
> ..........


I just re-tested using PlayOn streaming to Google TV on my Revue. The "Fast-Forward" is a joke IMO. You have to hit it once then wait a second or two to get a 30 second skip. Holding the button down does nothing. This is practically useless if you need to jump to say the one hour point in a two hour video. This holds true whether viewing internet content or local media files. PlayLater was not involved in these tests.

My PC is an i7-860 (Quad core) at 2.8 MHz with 8 GB RAM and the connection is hardwired 100 Mbps Ethernet. Everything rates "Max" in PlayOn setup. When I use Windows MC to stream local video files to the DLNA client in the Revue I get not only fast forward but random seek.

Maybe this works better with a different client, e.g., the Roku box ??


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I am not aware of any server client setups that do time search of internet streaming. I don't have Roku but I do have a PlayOn supported client, a PS3, and although it appears to be able to move forward at various increments, 30 seconds to 5 minutes, it doesn't work for me.

PlayLater works fine for time search if used with the computer running PlayLater but I can't go to a client in the house and do time search or skip forward, at least not by any method I have found. I suspect PlayLater will be used primarily with the computer it is installed on for me.


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