# TheVerge TiVo OTA Review



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Well, the verge did a TiVo Roamio OTA review and Chris wasn't very complimentary of the entire TiVo ecosystem... Even though he says he still uses a TiVo, I get the feeling he would rather just throw it into the garbage! 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/25/6066731/tivo-roamio-ota-review

CNET isn't as negative

http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-roamio-ota/


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

LOL check out the comments in the review, no one gets the Tivo business model. This has been true of almost every Tivo review in like, forever. And it's Tivo's fault for not explaining the deal because everyone thinks the monthly fee is just for guide data.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL check out the comments in the review, no one gets the Tivo business model. This has been true of almost every Tivo review in like, forever. And it's Tivo's fault for not explaining the deal because everyone thinks the monthly fee is just for guide data.


There is no explanation for why the fee should continue to be ~$15/mo once the hardware is paid for and profited on.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

bradleys said:


> Well, the verge did a TiVo Roamio OTA review and Chris wasn't very complimentary of the entire TiVo ecosystem... Even though he says he still uses a TiVo, I get the feeling he would rather just throw it into the garbage!


review is a bit ridiculous.

I mean under "Bad Stuff" he lists

"Booting takes forever"............ as if you're turning the thing off everytime you are done watching tv for the night.

"UI isn't 100% HD" ........as if you really have to visit SD menus often once you are setup.

and then says it "should be smaller" as if there are so many devices with tuners and hard drives in them that are so much smaller.

He doesn't rail much on the $15/mo fee which is easily the worst part of the Roamio OTA package. And should received much more attention than the other cons which are minor in comparison.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Very poor review in my opinion. What on earth is he talking about , "booting takes forever"...????? And it should be smaller, it has a hard drive in it, for $50 what does this moron want, and SSD. This is a terrible review by someone that obviously has an axe to grind for some reason. I guess I am an exception to the rule, but I don't think that $15 a month is going to break my budget. Couple of trips to Starbucks in a month cost me more than that, and I watch quite a bit of TV.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

trip1eX said:


> There is no explanation for why the fee should continue to be ~$15/mo once the hardware is paid for and profited on.


How much profit do you think there is in a $50 Tivo machine with 4 tuners, a power supply, processor, and 500 GB harddrive? It's like inkjet printers, they give the printer away so they can sell you the ink cartridges. They are giving this OTA unit away to get the $15 a month subscription.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

You guys need to stop defending TiVo so much.

The TiVo UI not being completely HD is indefensible and extremely disappointing, it's been 4 1/2 years already.
The extended boot times are annoying, but are not really an issue. It is still ridiculous in 2014 for a device to require that much bloat.
$15/month + a fee for the mini IS excessive. I don't care for the argument that the Cable company is more expensive, since when is THAT a model to be followed.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Philmatic said:


> $15/month + a fee for the mini IS excessive. I don't care for the argument that the Cable company is more expensive, since when is THAT a model to be followed.


If TiVo were making obscene profits like the cable companies, I would agree with you. But that isn't the case at all.


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## swarto112 (Sep 10, 2012)

I like the idea but Ive got a Tivo HD that I use for OTA. A Premiere 4XL lifetime collecting dust with the Stream and Mini. I have a Hulu Plus sub always so dropping $500 to refresh what I already got...cant really get into it.


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## 59er (Mar 27, 2008)

My non-DVR cable box takes about 3 times as long to boot as my TiVo does.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

59er said:


> My non-DVR cable box takes about 3 times as long to boot as my TiVo does.


+1. I remember the old TWC cable boxes I had before I upgraded to TiVo last year. Those monstrosities would take up to 20 minutes to boot up and used more electricity than my refrigerator. It was a pain in the ass too since it seemed like they were always freezing up if I tried to change channels too quickly. I suppose I should be thankful for TWC's crappy equipment though. If it hadn't been so unbearably bad, I never would have started looking for alternatives and never would have switched to TiVo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Captainbob said:


> How much profit do you think there is in a $50 Tivo machine with 4 tuners, a power supply, processor, and 500 GB harddrive? It's like inkjet printers, they give the printer away so they can sell you the ink cartridges. They are giving this OTA unit away to get the $15 a month subscription.


Um I said charge the $15/month until they make a decent return on the hardware and then reduce the rate to reflect what you're then paying for which is updates and guide data. Well aware that $50 is a subsidized price. I'm really just saying the subsidy fee should be a separate line item from the Tivo service fee. And once paid off the total monthly fee should be reduced.

This is like the cellphone companies were doing and still do. They hide the cellphone subsidy into your monthly payment and then continue charge you that rate whether you upgrade 2 years from now or not.

But now the cellphone companies have budged a bit and they will separate out the subsidy for the phone. I think all the major guys might do that now. I know at least a few do. It's a separate contract essentially if you choose that option. And once your phone is paid off, the monthly subsidy charge disappears.

I realize Tivo wants everyone to keep paying as much as possible per month. But this isn't 2004 any longer. The general public is wiser to what they're paying for. And the internet provides many streaming options which show how over priced some of the cable fees are.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think they should lower the monthly fee and extend the commitment period instead. Lower the monthly fee to $10 and extend the commitment to 2 years. (with early termination fees) The current price/term only guarantees them $230 for each box. ($50 + $15/mo for 1 year) My purposed plan would guarantee them $290 and would be more appealing to customers.

They had a deal a while back where you could get service on a Raomio Basic for $10/mo if you were OTA only. Makes sense to continue it for an OTA only DVR.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My biggest peeve with this new box is the lack of Mini support. Why would they artificially remove that? Seems silly to me.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> My biggest peeve with this new box is the lack of Mini support. Why would they artificially remove that? Seems silly to me.


It is baffling to me as well. All they did was remove the CableCard slot and the QAM tuner, so the box is perfectly capable of working with a Mini. I also don't really understand why there is no lifetime service option.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

No lifetime is a business decision. They elected to make the box cheaper in favor of a monthly fee. But removing Mini support makes no sense. Maybe it'll only be that way initially until they make whatever change they plan to make to the Mini pricing/fee structure. (there is a rumor about this on ZNF)


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> No lifetime is a business decision. They elected to make the box cheaper in favor of a monthly fee.


I always thought that TiVo priced lifetime service so as to be indifferent on whether a customer chooses monthly or lifetime. So why would TiVo care if people would rather buy the OTA with lifetime rather than monthly?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

The Verge is for the psueduo tech savy, CNET a little more mainstream but they both talk down to people. Anyone who goes with their reviews without questioning deserves their fate.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> Well, the verge did a TiVo Roamio OTA review and Chris wasn't very complimentary of the entire TiVo ecosystem... Even though he says he still uses a TiVo, I get the feeling he would rather just throw it into the garbage!
> 
> http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/25/6066731/tivo-roamio-ota-review
> 
> ...


I don't understand how they compare some of these products. To make it more equal footing they need to compare the price of four tuners with TiVo to the price of four tuners with the other devices. But they only seem to compare it to two tuners with the other devices. Which makes it seem like they cost much less than they actually would to get four tuners for recording.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Philmatic said:


> You guys need to stop defending TiVo so much.
> 
> The TiVo UI not being completely HD is indefensible and extremely disappointing, it's been 4 1/2 years already.
> The extended boot times are annoying, but are not really an issue. It is still ridiculous in 2014 for a device to require that much bloat.
> $15/month + a fee for the mini IS excessive. I don't care for the argument that the Cable company is more expensive, since when is THAT a model to be followed.


If the OTA Roamio is like the Roamio BAsic, boot times are pretty quick compared to the Roamio Pro.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I think they should lower the monthly fee and extend the commitment period instead. Lower the monthly fee to $10 and extend the commitment to 2 years. (with early termination fees) The current price/term only guarantees them $230 for each box. ($50 + $15/mo for 1 year) My purposed plan would guarantee them $290 and would be more appealing to customers.
> 
> They had a deal a while back where you could get service on a Raomio Basic for $10/mo if you were OTA only. Makes sense to continue it for an OTA only DVR.


Or keep it $15 a month for the first year, then have it drop to $10 a month after that.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> My biggest peeve with this new box is the lack of Mini support. Why would they artificially remove that? Seems silly to me.


Yes it pretty much makes it worthless to anyone that has more than one TV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I always thought that TiVo priced lifetime service so as to be indifferent on whether a customer chooses monthly or lifetime. So why would TiVo care if people would rather buy the OTA with lifetime rather than monthly?


IIRC they amortize lifetime over 3 years, then it rolls off their books. So $15/mo forever means more money.

There was once a few years back where they eliminated the lifetime option completely. The best you could get was 3 years prepaid for $399. They were still honoring lifetime gift cards and people were selling them for $700+ on eBay.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> IIRC they amortize lifetime over 3 years, then it rolls off their books. So $15/mo forever means more money.


And I guess they figure the shelf life of a OTA TiVo is probably longer than a cable TiVo (who knows how long cablecard will be around or if iptv takes over).


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> There was once a few years back where they eliminated the lifetime option completely. The best you could get was 3 years prepaid for $399. They were still honoring lifetime gift cards and people were selling them for $700+ on eBay.


I wonder if its not their plan to eliminate the lifetime option on future units? That to me would be a turnoff to me, its bad enough I have to pay for cable cards from the cable company but to pay for a monthly subscription too?

The only reason I haven't gotten a Mini is the payback to break even between renting a cable card vs using a mini was over 4 years! The product is dead or close to dead by then.

-TL


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> IIRC they amortize lifetime over 3 years, then it rolls off their books. So $15/mo forever means more money.
> 
> There was once a few years back where they eliminated the lifetime option completely. The best you could get was 3 years prepaid for $399. They were still honoring lifetime gift cards and people were selling them for $700+ on eBay.


I entered the Tivo universe during this period. It was 3yrs, $300. At about month 34, Tivo emailed me to offer $99 lifetime, specifically citing the fact that lifetime wasn't available when I bought as a reason for the offer.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Time_Lord said:


> The only reason I haven't gotten a Mini is the payback to break even between renting a cable card vs using a mini was over 4 years! The product is dead or close to dead by then.


Payback period on the Mini varies greatly depending on circumstances. If you are on Comcast and they are charging you a $10/month outlet fee, or if you are currently renting a cable box for a second TV for $12/month, a Mini is a much more attractive option.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> IIRC they amortize lifetime over 3 years, then it rolls off their books. So $15/mo forever means more money.


I think someone mentioned in another thread recently that TiVo has raised the amortization period for lifetime to 5.5 years. Regardless, I still have to believe that TiVo prices lifetime service at a point where they consider that revenue stream to be equal to what they would expect to receive from someone paying monthly service.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm not so sure. Lifetime units tend to have a long lifespan. There are still a bunch of people using lifetime S3 units and those were released in 2006. I think the main reason they still offer lifetime is because having all these old units still in service helps them keep their subscriber numbers up. I still think financially it's a loss for them.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I'm not so sure. Lifetime units tend to have a long lifespan. There are still a bunch of people using lifetime S3 units and those were released in 2006. I think the main reason they still offer lifetime is because having all these old units still in service helps them keep their subscriber numbers up. I still think financially it's a loss for them.


True, but the question is does the average TiVo customer paying monthly keep their service on the same box going for more than 3 years. I'm sure there are people who buy a box w/monthly service and canel after a year or 2. And TiVo seems to come out with new hardware roughly every 3 years or so, so I would expect a lot of monthly subscribers to upgrade to the newer box more often than the lifetime subscribers. And if lifetime really is a loss for them financially, that begs the question of why they don't just raise the price of lifetime service to where they would break even with expected monthly service revenue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> IIRC they amortize lifetime over 3 years, then it rolls off their books. So $15/mo forever means more money.
> 
> There was once a few years back where they eliminated the lifetime option completely. The best you could get was 3 years prepaid for $399. They were still honoring lifetime gift cards and people were selling them for $700+ on eBay.


Three years prepaid was $299 back then. I had the three Series 3 boxes I bought in 2006 on that plan.

I got lifetime on them at the end of that three years but MSD lifetime was only $299 back then too. But I think I ended up paying $200 for lifetime on those boxes. I had upgraded them to 5 platter, 1TB drives in 2007. I sold one and gave the other two to my GF when the Premiere launched. So they are still working fine 7.5 years after putting the 1TB, 5 platter drives in them. And then running basically 24/7/365 all that time. And considering how hot those drives run, I am certainly surprised there have never been any issues with those Series 3 TiVos. But they have been rock solid so far.


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## Time_Lord (Jun 4, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> ...that begs the question of why they don't just raise the price of lifetime service to where they would break even with expected monthly service revenue.


What makes you so sure it isn't already? You aren't considering the value of the $$, a $100 today maybe worth $125 in 3 years, remember there is a cost associated with borrowing or lending money. Same reason car manufactures provide a cash back of X dollars OR a low interest rate, based upon their calculations its the same cost over the life of the loan.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Time_Lord said:


> What makes you so sure it isn't already? You aren't considering the value of the $$, a $100 today maybe worth $125 in 3 years, remember there is a cost associated with borrowing or lending money. Same reason car manufactures provide a cash back of X dollars OR a low interest rate, based upon their calculations its the same cost over the life of the loan.


I think it probably is, and I agree with your point about the time value of money. I was merely posing a hypothetical based on another poster's contention that it isn't.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Payback period on the Mini varies greatly depending on circumstances. If you are on Comcast and they are charging you a $10/month outlet fee, or if you are currently renting a cable box for a second TV for $12/month, a Mini is a much more attractive option.


This....right now I have two TiVos -- a lifetimed HD and a monthly XL4. Our third TV is on a cable box that we pay nothing for. If our cableco starts charging us for it (a real possibility after a two-year promotional package ends this Dec), then I'd explore a Mini. Last night was only the second time in 20 months I can remember all four tuners being used on my XL4, so I'd have no problem dedicating a tuner to the Mini...


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I've often said that the time to start being wary of TiVo, as a company, is if they discontinue lifetime service (not including the past incident).

While I don't see the lack of it on this product being meaningful (yet), it has raised my TiVo threat level a notch, to where I'll be keeping a closer eye on things TiVo says and does.

Since I feel I already have what I need, and already got lifetime service, it only makes me wonder what happens if the day comes that TiVo "shuts its doors", and/or is bought by another company.

There is more to lifetime service than how long you can keep the TiVo with the lifetime TSN alive. If TiVo lasts at least 3 more years, as a company, as they are, and my units still have resale value, I'll be more than happy with that.

If I were just now considering buying a Roamio (other than OTA-only model), I might have a "wait and see where this goes" attitude, rather than buying now, and going straight to lifetime service...

If I had any interest in this product, I'd definitely "wait and see where this goes", before buying-in.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Ridiculous overthinking about this, as usual. Tivo service is not going anywhere, whether you buy lifetime or monthly, and whether they stay independent or are bought out.

The sky is falling crowd has been saying this kind of junk about Tivo for years.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Ridiculous overthinking about this, as usual. Tivo service is not going anywhere, whether you buy lifetime or monthly, and whether they stay independent or are bought out.
> 
> The sky is falling crowd has been saying this kind of junk about Tivo for years.


Companies much bigger than Tivo have disappeared or been bought out over night especially in the tech industry, so I wouldn't bet the farm on it not happening.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

CNET says it works with the mini, is that wrong?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Doh said:


> CNET says it works with the mini, is that wrong?


Yes, that is wrong


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Captainbob said:


> Companies much bigger than Tivo have disappeared or been bought out over night especially in the tech industry, so I wouldn't bet the farm on it not happening.


Not betting the farm, just making observation based on Tivo's history. You could make a case that once they burn through their patent settlements and licensing that they could be in trouble, but that's some years off.

And that really has nothing to do with service being provided, btw. ReplayTV quit selling DVRs years ago and are still providing service (as D&M Holdings). Same with Arris and the Moxi after they bought out Digeo. Both of these are just a fraction of Tivo's userbase.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL check out the comments in the review, no one gets the Tivo business model. This has been true of almost every Tivo review in like, forever. And it's Tivo's fault for not explaining the deal because everyone thinks the monthly fee is just for guide data.


And are Series 2 and 3 owners who pay the monthly rate get for the money? They get nothing except the guide metadata. Those boxes are all legacy and still have a monthly charge or Lifetime.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Captainbob said:


> Very poor review in my opinion. What on earth is he talking about , "booting takes forever"...????? And it should be smaller, it has a hard drive in it, for $50 what does this moron want, and SSD. This is a terrible review by someone that obviously has an axe to grind for some reason. I guess I am an exception to the rule, but I don't think that $15 a month is going to break my budget. Couple of trips to Starbucks in a month cost me more than that, and I watch quite a bit of TV.


It's just that the cord cutter would rather spend their $15 at Starbucks rather than for the privilege of recording "FREE TV." So, those folks will get the adequate Channel Master DVR+ with good guide meta data, still updating the software with more to come, but all with NO MONTHLY FEE. Now they can DVR OTA and have Starbucks, too. TiVo's pricing model for the OTA is just bad. They would be better off charging the same as the DVR+, but with no monthly fee, and then they have a compelling product. Channel Master has had a pricing model with providing guides and updates with no monthly fee for years with its previous and now best DVR they have ever done. TiVO can, too, with the OTA product.


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## Captainbob (Sep 1, 2014)

Series3Sub said:


> It's just that the cord cutter would rather spend their $15 at Starbucks rather than for the privilege of recording "FREE TV." So, those folks will get the adequate Channel Master DVR+ with good guide meta data, still updating the software with more to come, but all with NO MONTHLY FEE. Now they can DVR OTA and have Starbucks, too. TiVo's pricing model for the OTA is just bad. They would be better off charging the same as the DVR+, but with no monthly fee, and then they have a compelling product. Channel Master has had a pricing model with providing guides and updates with no monthly fee for years with its previous and now best DVR they have ever done. TiVO can, too, with the OTA product.


A friend of mine has the Channel Master unit, and I took a look at it, and didn't care for it compared to the Tivo. I didn't like the remote, the fact that you had to buy a hard drive and Wifi adapter which I need, to make it work. The schedule information that he has, doesn't seem to be as complete as the Tivo info, but the biggest complaint I had with it, was the tuner sensitivity which didn't seem to be anywhere near what it is on my Tivo for OTA signals. He lives 2 miles closer to the city than I do, and gets fewer channels on his CM box than I get, like 14 compared to my 27. It can't be his location, because he gets more channels using the tuner in his TV then he gets on the CM DVR. To me, that's not a bargain, to pay around $400 total for something with inferior performance.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Series3Sub said:


> And are Series 2 and 3 owners who pay the monthly rate get for the money? They get nothing except the guide metadata. Those boxes are all legacy and still have a monthly charge or Lifetime.


I'm not saying monthly is a good deal long-term, we all know it's not. Simply saying that these folks don't understand that the box is cheap BECAUSE the monthly fee subsidizes the cost, just like with phones. These maroons think the box should be $50 all-in with no service cost.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

Bottom line is that there is no reason why the OTA Roamio should be more expensive after 4 years than the existing Roamio, and Tivo should be embarrassed to offer a less capable but more expensive machine, even if the upfront cost is lower.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

They're not targeting the folks that post here (well, most of them). They're targeting the uninformed consumer.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> No lifetime is a business decision. They elected to make the box cheaper in favor of a monthly fee. But removing Mini support makes no sense. Maybe it'll only be that way initially until they make whatever change they plan to make to the Mini pricing/fee structure. (there is a rumor about this on ZNF)


Lifetime is what keeps me as a customer. It makes the boxes a decent resale value. If TiVo for some reason did away with the lifetime option for Series 6 whenever that shows up, I'd probably skip it and stay with my Series 5 boxes which have lifetime.

Speaking of lifetime, anyone know of anyone still using a Series 1 with lifetime?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I have a broken S2 with lifetime sitting in my closet. I tried replacing the HDD, but that wasn't it. Assume it's a broken power supply but never bothered to try and fix it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> There is no explanation for why the fee should continue to be ~$15/mo once the hardware is paid for and profited on.


Pay lifetime (of the box). Problem solved.. No fee.

People really don't get it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I have a broken S2 with lifetime sitting in my closet. I tried replacing the HDD, but that wasn't it. Assume it's a broken power supply but never bothered to try and fix it.


I have an I subbed S2 laying around - pay shipping and it is yours...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bradleys said:


> I have an I subbed S2 laying around - pay shipping and it is yours...


Would need to be the same model. This one is one of the original TCD140060 models, with the USB 1.1 ports.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I have at least 1 540 unit, a couple of S2DT units and 3 TiVo HD units all without service sitting in the same closet.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I have at least 1 540 unit, *a couple of S2DT units* and 3 TiVo HD units all without service sitting in the same closet.


I have an old R2 unit with a hologram projector, only used once for showing some whiny princess begging for help from an old geriatric knight and a snot nosed boy who can't keep his head out of the clouds. Please PM me if interested.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

Why get rid of sub fees on the mini but require them on this device? (let alone why disable mini features on this device)


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Doh said:


> Why get rid of sub fees on the mini but require them on this device? (let alone why disable mini features on this device)


The TiVo Roamio OTA is a DVR. The TiVo Mini is just a client interface box that allows local streaming of content from a TiVo DVR to a remote TV set. The Mini doesn't record any programming, and it doesn't need a guide because it can just remotely display the guide resident in the TiVo DVR. Many of us never understood the thinking that led TiVo to charge a subscription fee for it in the first place. There should come a day when a TiVo DVR can stream to any TV using standard circuitry built into the TV without the need for any interface box. And the TiVo Roamio OTA should work with a Mini, but may not if some reports are to be believed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo should support DLNA CVP-2. It has a spec for displaying a remote UI on any device using HTML5 and supports protected content in both MPEG-2 and H.264 formats. It should start being built into TVs soon and then you could TiVo watch on any DLNA capable TV. Also the Mini itself could be designed to be a much simpler DLNA client device rather then requiring a full blown version of the software.


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