# Game of Thrones - "The Old Gods and New" - S2E6 - 5/06/12 ***spoilers***



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Now the Kahleesi is down to one Dothraki and one knight with no dragons.

Tyrion slapped the King!

"We have never had a king that is cruel AND an idiot!" Yeah, executing all of your subjects will really make them love you.

Breinne is _only_ 6 foot 3. How do they make her tower so much over everybody? She's gotta be wearing elevator heels.

Methinks Jon Snow needed to sheath his second sword.

Was that the Mountain that Arya has offed?

I think Littlefinger IDd Arya and decided to hold that info for his own devious purposes.


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## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Jon Snow had a most unique meet-cute.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I know someone that will be VERY happy to have another KingSlap!

I also loved the bit about "cruel and an idiot".

There was genuine concern in my house that Sansa was going to be raped, glad that didn't happen.

The wildling grinding on Jon Snow was hilarious.

I agree that Lord Baelish is on to Arya.

How about the "Winterfell Wildling"? Why was she so loyal to Bran? She really took one for the team


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm sad, I was expecting photoshop girl to be in here giddy.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

netringer said:


> Was that the Mountain that Arya has offed?


No it was the guy who accidentally sent the Lannisters' troop movement info to a Stark bannerman.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Goeffry's clue server is beyond needing a reboot. It is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch!
I thought it was a dirty rock he was hit with, the reality was even better!
I think that Arya knows that Baelish knows who she is, and that was part of her reason for running (that and she got a location for her brother). 
The "Winterfell Wilding" was a good counterpoint to Theon Greyjoy, both were enemies taken in by the Starks and treated with respect, with differing results.


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

zordude said:


> I know someone that will be VERY happy to have another KingSlap!
> 
> The wildling grinding on Jon Snow was hilarious.


You guys have to understand the part with John Snow. 
She is a "Wildling". She's a wild thing he can't tame. Half hand
had a discussion with him explaining this. As you can see...
he didn't learn a thing. =) 
"You can't tame a wild thing."


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm sad, I was expecting photoshop girl to be in here giddy.


Joffrey got slapped! Joffrey got slapped! <happy dance> Tyrion is my king. 
And a pile of poo slapped him across the face. That's double awesomeness!

So wow. So much happened. Watched on the plane just now. So much of the show is dark that I was having issues seeing with the sun coming in the windows. I'll have to watch again to be sure I got it all.

Now Theon has joined my die list. Cannot wait for Robb to get his revenge. Tell me he does! Mommy is always right Robb!

I hope Ghost shows up to help Jon. He best be thinking with the right head or that wildling will get him killed and we cannot have that. I didn't realize he had chased her that far to the point he's lost now.

That massacre was brutal to watch. I really felt for poor Sansa. I thought she was getting raped too. So glad that didn't happen. Dog to the rescue was fantastic though. Love that he calls her little bird.

Oh no! Dany lost her dragons. How did she think they would be safe? I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened before now with as small as her "army" is.

I also agree that Littlefinger ID'd her.

More later when I watch again.

Oh and did I mention..... JOFFREY GOT SLAPPED!!


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

Hah just read something on another review I had to share... made me laugh.

RE: Jon and Ygritti
"..hopefully what happens north of the wall, stays north of the wall."

Made me giggle.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

If I were Theon, every time a woman hit on me I'd ask, "You're not my sister, are you?"

Then again, if Theon were the type to do that, he would be just a little likable...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Demandred said:


> No it was the guy who accidentally sent the Lannisters' troop movement info to a Stark bannerman.


Did he accidentally send it to the wrong house? Since it just happened to go to the Starks, I was wondering if Arya could have somehow influenced it. Not sure how, so probably not, but it popped into my head.

I think there's absolutely no question Littlefinger recognized her. Why else would he leave a note for anyone but her. He would have just told Tywin or whoever directly. So it was clearly a note left for her. Was anyone able to read it? All I saw was something about "ten thousand" men and "Robb".

Loved the scene between Theon and Bran. It showed how powerless Theon was (at first). Almost like he was negotiating his seige of Winterfell. But I was surprised he could bring himself to do the dirtywork and not be buddy-buddy with everyone there.

So Robb is going to retake Winterfell with a few hundred men, not knowing that Theon was calling for an additional 500 men. Wonder who will get there first. It least it doesn't matter SO much since the kids are out. So much for there always being a Stark in Winterfell.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Demandred said:


> No it was the guy who accidentally sent the Lannisters' troop movement info to a Stark bannerman.


Ser Amory Lorch, who also is the Lannister guy who took them prisoner at the holdfast where Yoren died.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Took a better look at the note. Best I can get is:

Marching ten thousance west (3 words I can't read)
the tooth. Estimate to reach you by weeks end. (2 words...I think "Scouts report")
Robb Stark moving troops south by coast. Alert (Serr.... can't make out the rest of the word, or next 2 words)
turn east at Silverhill.

So was that left by Littlefinger for Arya? Doesn't sound like something he'd leave her, but don't know why he'd leave it in a note for Tywin either. Looking back, it seems there were some papers there before Littlefinger even showed up. I don't see that particular one, but I know it was underneath some others.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I thought it was interesting and I might be on to something that Jon Snow's Wildling prisoner is so pretty with great teeth. I have yet to see one like that. 

Also I was going to call it last week and I was close but I have not read the books and not sure what happens but I thought somehow the Hound was going to be the one to get Sansa out of King's Landing. My theory is when Margery shows up to be Joffrey's Queen it would be the Hound getting Sansa to safety. I was not expecting him to save her from an angry crowd. 

I agree Baelish knows that is Arya because that is what Baelish does is be observant. He just does not know how he will use this knowledge to his benefit. 

One more thing...there is something weird between Brann being able to have his dreams come true and Denarys having the same. Not sure what the connection is but I think there is some connection.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The note wasn't intended for Arya...it was troop movement orders from Tywin to one of his men in the field.

But yes, Littlefinger must have recognized her. It was well-done that she was completely invisible to him (being a servant) until she messed up by spilling on him, and thus attracting his attention. After that, he kept staring at her, which would make no sense if he thought she was just a random servant girl who spilled on him. Either he knows who she is, or he knows her from somewhere and is trying to place her (and given what a smooth operator he is I would guess the latter; if he knew she was Arya he wouldn't have kept staring).


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The note wasn't intended for Arya...it was troop movement orders from Tywin to one of his men in the field.
> 
> But yes, Littlefinger must have recognized her. It was well-done that she was completely invisible to him (being a servant) until she messed up by spilling on him, and thus attracting his attention. After that, he kept staring at her, which would make no sense if he thought she was just a random servant girl who spilled on him. Either he knows who she is,* or he knows her from somewhere and is trying to place her *(and given what a smooth operator he is I would guess the latter; if he knew she was Arya he wouldn't have kept staring).


This seems more likely, because I can't imagine Littlefinger actually recognizing her and letting her slip out of his fingers. She's too valuable a commodity for him not to want to grab and control.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

This episode really drove home how willing the tv producers are to do things differently from the books. I think only the riot in Kings Landing was nearly 100% book accurate. The rest took some small or large divergences. They are doing a great job because I still get engrossed and love where they are taking some of the stories.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

billypritchard said:


> This seems more likely, because I can't imagine Littlefinger actually recognizing her and letting her slip out of his fingers. She's too valuable a commodity for him not to want to grab and control.


On the other hand, what could he have done without tipping Tywin off and thus losing his advantage?

I don't think he knows who she is (yet), but if he did he would wait until he had her alone to play his hand.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The note wasn't intended for Arya...it was troop movement orders from Tywin to one of his men in the field.


Oh, outgoing mail. OK, and here I am thinking it was incoming, intended for Tywin.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Oh, outgoing mail. OK, and here I am thinking it was incoming, intended for Tywin.


It could have been incoming. But either way, it had nothing to do with Littlefinger, who has nothing to do with troop movements.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Double slap! Once with poo, once by Tyrion! That made this ep by itself!

I also was in full agreement with that wildling girl when she called Jon Snow an idiot.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Where was Ser Jorah in all of this? Is he out trying to find Dany some ships? I'll eat my hat if that was him stealing the dragons at the end. I'm thinking somehow the spice trader guy was involved. He seemed mighty interested in the dragons earlier, and he conveniently kept Dany waiting extra long while the dragons were being taken.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Loved the scene between Theon and Bran. It showed how powerless Theon was (at first). Almost like he was negotiating his seige of Winterfell. But I was surprised he could bring himself to do the dirtywork and not be buddy-buddy with everyone there.


Didn't Ned Stark say something in the first episode or two about not ordering something you wouldn't be willing to do yourself? (Before he executed the watch guy who'd run from the wall)

Theon being willing to do it himself _should_ have come across as a point of strength. But he screwed it up by being mildly indecisive about doing it after being prompted and then by making such a mess of the actual execution. Hacking a neck apart is hardly the clean quick execution that might have rebounded that whole mess slightly to his favor.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

zordude said:


> ...How about the "Winterfell Wildling"? Why was she so loyal to Bran? She really took one for the team


I was thinking that for a savage that begged to become an indentured servant she has unusually good hygiene not to mention her neatly trimmed hoo-hoo.



mwhip said:


> I thought it was interesting and I might be on to something that Jon Snow's Wildling prisoner is so pretty with great teeth. ...


Funny! Same thing. I noticed the teeth, too. Wildings also have great dental care.

The Stark men have a real weakness with killing women warriors.

I should ask why the night's watch feels the need to wipe out those guys. You could see it like "I Am Legend" where the wildings are just trying to survive and get along and these guys dressed in black keep attacking them.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> This episode really drove home how willing the tv producers are to do things differently from the books. I think only the riot in Kings Landing was nearly 100% book accurate. The rest took some small or large divergences. They are doing a great job because I still get engrossed and love where they are taking some of the stories.


Hey, hey, hey. None of that talk. Remember, we got ran off last week to the other thread.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> This episode really drove home how willing the tv producers are to do things differently from the books. I think only the riot in Kings Landing was nearly 100% book accurate. The rest took some small or large divergences. They are doing a great job because I still get engrossed and love where they are taking some of the stories.


This is why I'm not going to read the books until the HBO series is finished. I want to see _this _story. I'll read the other story later.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Hey, hey, hey. None of that talk. Remember, we got ran off last week to the other thread.


I know I know. I am taking pains not say what exactly is different!


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## steverm2 (May 10, 2005)

Joffrey with cow pie on his face and getting slapped by tyrion was just great.cant wait to see what happens to the little dick next.didnt really think Theon was all that evil till last nite.He really sucks at it though,so far.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

steverm2 said:


> didnt really think Theon was all that evil till last nite.He really sucks at it though,so far.


He certainly doesn't swing a sword like Ned Stark or Illyn Payne. The beheading was brutal. In the ew.com recap I loved this quote:


> Rodrik said he wished he never taught Theon how to use a sword. I'm betting he now wishes he taught Theon how to use a sword better.


The first ten minutes was great and again, I thought the hour flew by. I'll probably rewatch tonight to see what I missed the first time.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Put me down in the: The note is unrelated to Littlefinger, camp. It was just one of many papers there and she noticed it had her brother's name in it.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Littlefinger would be betraying Joffrey and Cersei if he told Tywin about Arya, no?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

markb said:


> Littlefinger would be betraying Joffrey and Cersei if he told Tywin about Arya, no?


I don't think Littlefinger cares who he betrays. If he recognized Arya then he is only keeping it a secret because it will benefit him in some way.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Rickvz said:


> I don't think Littlefinger cares who he betrays. If he recognized Arya then he is only keeping it a secret because it will benefit him in some way.


I agree he's in it for himself, but that means staying alive first. Betraying Joffrey and Cersei isn't necessarily a good way to stay alive.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

markb said:


> I agree he's in it for himself, but that means staying alive first. Betraying Joffrey and Cersei isn't necessarily a good way to stay alive.


Although betraying them to the man who is their boss in fact if not on the org chart could be an excellent way to stay alive (remember that both Cersei and Joffrey fear Tywin enough to accept Tyrion, whom they both loathe, as Hand, even though Joffrey could easily have Tyrion executed and appoint his favorite horse as Hand, and even though Tywin is hundreds of miles away).


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Where was Ser Jorah in all of this? Is he out trying to find Dany some ships? I'll eat my hat if that was him stealing the dragons at the end. I'm thinking somehow the spice trader guy was involved. He seemed mighty interested in the dragons earlier, and he conveniently kept Dany waiting extra long while the dragons were being taken.


I think it was that warlock dude. He is trying to get Dany to come to them.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

mwhip said:


> I thought it was interesting and I might be on to something that Jon Snow's Wildling prisoner is so pretty with great teeth. I have yet to see one like that.


She must be a member of the Starz/Spartacus dental plan....


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Archangel00 said:


> She must be a member of the Starz/Spartacus dental plan....


There was no money in the makeup budget for Billy Bob teeth.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rickvz said:


> I don't think Littlefinger cares who he betrays. If he recognized Arya then he is only keeping it a secret because it will benefit him in some way.


He'll use the secret as another way to make another run at his lifelong love, Catelyn.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Why did Osha have to sleep with Theon? It would have made sense if she was going to slit his throat but if her goal was to sneak them out after he fell asleep then what was the point?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

mwhip said:


> Why did Osha have to sleep with Theon? It would have made sense if she was going to slit his throat but if her goal was to sneak them out after he fell asleep then what was the point?


Maybe she spiked her ... with the milk of the poppy.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Why did Osha have to sleep with Theon? It would have made sense if she was going to slit his throat but if her goal was to sneak them out after he fell asleep then what was the point?


Maybe she thought he was cute and wanted to hit that once before the road. Maybe she knew she would run into a guard outside and wanted to establish that she was with Theon so her little ruse would work.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Mo Ryan's review:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maureen-ryan/game-of-thrones-recap_b_1478642.html?ref=tv








"redheads are awesome."


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> Mo Ryan's review:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maureen-ryan/game-of-thrones-recap_b_1478642.html?ref=tv


Just as a warning, there is a fairly minor (at least in my opinion) unintentional spoiler in the "A few final notes" section at the end of that review (in the last 2 sentences of the 2nd bullet point). I suspect most people wouldn't be too bothered by it, but those that don't want to know ANYTHING might not care to read it.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

billypritchard said:


> This episode really drove home how willing the tv producers are to do things differently from the books. I think only the riot in Kings Landing was nearly 100% book accurate. The rest took some small or large divergences. They are doing a great job because I still get engrossed and love where they are taking some of the stories.


One thing that was different that I did not like


Spoiler



was letting us see right away that Bran and Rickon are safe. I was waiting for everyone here to think they were dead for ages, maybe even into next season, like I did when I read the books. 





netringer said:


> I should ask why the night's watch feels the need to wipe out those guys. You could see it like "I Am Legend" where the wildings are just trying to survive and get along and these guys dressed in black keep attacking them.


That's really a huge crowd of guys who refuse to obey any laws--"free people"--crowding into your land. If they get past the wall and into Winterfell, it would be a mess. Plus food will be in short supply anyway when winter comes.....

I realize the dragons are still pretty small, but they can make fire and are not likely to be happy to leave Dani. I wouldn't want to be the one trying to hold them. 

I thought it was odd that Kat didn't introduce Brienne to Rob. Kind of rude. And he didn't seem to notice her standing there.

Too bad the crowd didn't manage to throw anything heavier than poo at Joffrey. A big rock would have been better.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> He'll use the secret as another way to make another run at his lifelong love, Catelyn.


That's what I'm thinking as well. He has Sansa and now he knows where Arya is. Too bad he lied to Cat before and told her that he already knew where Arya was!



mwhip said:


> Why did Osha have to sleep with Theon? It would have made sense if she was going to slit his throat but if her goal was to sneak them out after he fell asleep then what was the point?


Theon made numerous advances to Osha and almost raped her once (and was saved by the raven-mail guy for the Starks). So coming on to him, putting him to sleep, getting the confidence of his men, etc. was the quickest way to her goal.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> One thing that was different that I did not like
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


No.


Spoiler



It happened the same way in the book (minus Osha sleeping w/Theon and minus the the Cranogs). The kids and wolves make a trail out the gate then double back. Theon searches the woods and never suspects where they went.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I hate Joffrey and loved it when Tyrion pimp slapped him but this is getting a bit ridiculous. Might as well give him a handlebar mustache to twirl as he does dastardly deeds.

Jon Snow isn't the brightest bastard on tv. Either his information retention skills suck or his entire brain is dyslexic since he can't seem to do what he's told. 

Arya was pretty stupid, sneaking around with Tywin's document in her hand. Peasant clothes don't have pockets? Looks like she's not aiming very high with her kill choices. She's my favorite character, though.

To paraphrase Omar from The Wire, Theon needs to get got.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Looks like she's not aiming very high with her kill choices.


Well, this one was self-defense. I bet she's as unhappy about it as you are... 

And the first one was proof-of-concept. So I guess her three wishes boil down to one.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So I guess her three wishes boil down to one.


That's the way it always works.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

tiassa said:


> Goeffry's clue server is beyond needing a reboot. It is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch!
> I thought it was a dirty rock he was hit with, the reality was even better!
> I think that Arya knows that Baelish knows who she is, and that was part of her reason for running (that and she got a location for her brother).
> The "Winterfell Wilding" was a good counterpoint to Theon Greyjoy, both were enemies taken in by the Starks and treated with respect, with differing results.


I think Theon has proven that nature trumps nurture in this world. After Joffrey he is the person i most want to see beheaded.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

marksman said:


> I think Theon has proven that nature trumps nurture in this world. After Joffrey he is the person i most want to see beheaded.


I don't see Theon as an evil person like Joffrey. I see him as a tragic figure who isn't strong enough to break the chains of circumstances that have tied him to a path he clearly does not wish to travel.

Jeez...is there enough strained imagery in my statement above?  

Nevertheless, he clearly wants to do the right thing. But he is vain and weak. So he picks the easy path; or what he thinks is the only path. But he is not in the same league as Joffrey; not by a long shot.

While I do not think Theon will redeem himself; I don't see him past redemption yet.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

He was a hostage not an adopted son. He has no reason to be loyal to the Starks.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> He was a hostage not an adopted son. He has no reason to be loyal to the Starks.


But he does have a very good reason: he loves the Starks. He thinks of Robb as his brother (and all the Starks kids). Yes, he was treated as a son and as an outsider at the same time; which causes conflict within him. But there is no doubt that he loves the Starks.


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## pudding7 (May 13, 2002)

Anubys said:


> But he does have a very good reason: he loves the Starks. He thinks of Robb as his brother (and all the Starks kids). Yes, he was treated as a son and as an outsider at the same time; which causes conflict within him. But there is no doubt that he loves the Starks.


I thought it was pretty telling how the conversation between Theon and Bran went.

Theon: "I've taken your castle."
Bran: "Why?"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

btw: I'm putting my money on The Hound being in love with Sansa.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

marksman said:


> I think Theon has proven that nature trumps nurture in this world. After Joffrey he is the person i most want to see beheaded.


The problem is, beheading Theon wouldn't really be appropriate justice unless he had to endure beheading by Theon...


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Joffrey got slapped! Joffrey got slapped! <happy dance> Tyrion is my king.
> And a pile of poo slapped him across the face. That's double awesomeness!
> 
> So wow. So much happened. Watched on the plane just now. So much of the show is dark that I was having issues seeing with the sun coming in the windows. I'll have to watch again to be sure I got it all.
> ...


I had wondered about the dragons from their birth. I guess I just suspended disbelief that they had some magic security. It seemed to me 99% of the people she met might try to steal them.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I liked Daenerys in the first season, but lately she's been so full of herself, and with the sense of entitlement, she reminds me more and more of her brother. I liked that the spice trader called her on it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I liked Daenerys in the first season, but lately she's been so full of herself, and with the sense of entitlement, she reminds me more and more of her brother. I liked that the spice trader called her on it.


Two of my most common reactions to all this is "I used to like _____, but he's really kind of a dick sometimes," and "I used to hate _____, but he's really not that bad sometimes."

Except Joffrey. Always a dick. Always hate him.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Irredeemable, I think, might be the word you are looking for. Most of the characters have more substance and nuance than we first saw. You learn that people you thought were schmucks are more than that, and not everybody you liked deserves it.

But Joffrey (and some others, to be named later because we haven't seen them yet) seem to be consistent in their schmuckery.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't see Theon as an evil person like Joffrey. I see him as a tragic figure who isn't strong enough to break the chains of circumstances that have tied him to a path he clearly does not wish to travel.
> 
> Jeez...is there enough strained imagery in my statement above?
> 
> ...


I actually feel a bit sorry for Theon. I think he could have been a decent person, but his alienation at the Stark's, and relationship with his father have steered him on a very wrong path.

OTOH, the only time I like Joffrey is when he's getting slapped by someone. Or plastered with cow stuff.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> He was a hostage not an adopted son. He has no reason to be loyal to the Starks.


He doesn't? He was treated kindly, like one of their own. He was never cast down or looked down upon by the Stark family. They treated him as best as they could, to the point that Robb Stark treated him as a brother and his most trusted ally in battle. To the point that he sent him to get ships from his father. Robb trusted that he would return. The Starks didn't do anything to him. The Starks are the most honorable family in the seven kingdoms.



Anubys said:


> But he does have a very good reason: he loves the Starks. He thinks of Robb as his brother (and all the Starks kids). Yes, he was treated as a son and as an outsider at the same time; which causes conflict within him. But there is no doubt that he loves the Starks.


Exactly, else why did he go to Pyke with good intentions? Surely he wanted to be thought of as dutiful and loved by his "adopted" family as well as his real family. "Look at me father! Look at how well I've done! I'm a great warrior and a man!" Unfortunately Theon didn't think of how his father would look at him, nor what would be expected of him. They do things MUCH differently on the Iron Islands.

We find that he is practically rejected by his own family, and it's by they Greyjoys that he's looked down upon. He's looked down upon because of circumstances that were wrought by his father, not him. Theon didn't chose to be sent away.

This is the sad tragedy that is Theon; he has to choose going against those who cared for him and treated him well over his own true family who reject him and treat him unkindly.



pudding7 said:


> I thought it was pretty telling how the conversation between Theon and Bran went.
> 
> Theon: "I've taken your castle."
> Bran: "Why?"


This further proves the point that the Starks treated Theon as a brother. They grew up with him at Winterfell and he was undoubtedly there since Bran can remember. "Why would my veritable brother take the castle? He's welcome here anytime. In fact, he lives here."



allan said:


> I actually feel a bit sorry for Theon. I think he could have been a decent person, but his alienation at the Stark's, and relationship with his father have steered him on a very wrong path.


Me too.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Two of my most common reactions to all this is "I used to like _____, but he's really kind of a dick sometimes," and "I used to hate _____, but he's really not that bad sometimes."
> 
> Except Joffrey. Always a dick. Always hate him.


Heh. The show also helps make the characters more redeemable. Either because the actor is really good, or things changed from the book. _Except Joffrey._


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

Speaking for someone thats read to midway book 4. I'm really disliking the dirrection the show is heading. YES I know that TV shows/Movies are never like the book. But they generaly keep things pretty much on point when they translate them. This episode (without having to spoilerize anything) is starting to go down a path that concerns me. I watched all of season one prior to reading the books. I read after season one was complete. The book/season was almost 1 for 1. I know the crew has stated they won't be following season 2 : book 2 ratio. Which is fine....but for them to change such major points of the book concerns me. Yes I know...the book is the book...and the show is ...the show. But it's suppose to be a translated version of the book, not a different story. Yes that can be adapted to many different things. It just concerns me that they are changing it up just to "Hollywood" things up. IE: The dragons being taken just to create a "OH NO" at the end of the episode is prime example of what bothers me. I hope they don't continue this trend.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

You're hinting at the dragon story being different. Good thing I don't care about that arc at all.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Looking at the differences here:
http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/The_Old_Gods_and_the_New/Book_Spoilers/#Book_to_Screen

The Dany part is the only change to seems significant (at least from what I can tell as someone who hasn't read the books). However, I think the most disappointing change is:



Spoiler



If I understand correctly, we were robbed of the opportunity to see Tyrion kick Joffrey several times


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> You're hinting at the dragon story being different. Good thing I don't care about that arc at all.


I really like this show, but would like it so much better without the mythological elements that seem unnecessary.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

SullyND said:


> I really like this show, but would like it so much better without the mythological elements that seem unnecessary.


Hate to tell you there are only going to be more.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Demandred said:


> No it was the guy who accidentally sent the Lannisters' troop movement info to a Stark bannerman.





billypritchard said:


> Ser Amory Lorch, who also is the Lannister guy who took them prisoner at the holdfast where Yoren died.


Hey! THAT GUY took Needle! Arya needs to run to go pick his bones.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I really liked how that wilding kept teasing Jon Snow. But I could not help but think how awesome Christina Hendricks would have been in that role


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Finally got to watch last night...a few thoughts based on that and the comments here.

I have no doubt that Littlefinger knows it's Arya (or recognizes her as someone he knows). Certainly Arya recognized him, as she was trying to stay in the shadows the whole scene. I guess I was wrong about Tywin knowing who she is though. Littlefinger will use Arya as leverage. Didn't he already promise (to Cat perhaps) that he can get her daughters out of Kings Landing?

Glad Sansa wasn't raped. I hated her haughtiness the first season, but I like her now and feel bad for her. I think the Hound like protecting her. I don't think he loves her as a lover, but more as a protector and father.

I think the guy who wants to marry Dany is the one behind the stealing of the dragons. I think he was playing on her to get her trust, and if he got the dragons by marriage, so be it, but since that wasn't going to work, he did what he had to. He kept hinting that he didn't get to his stature by being a nice guy, and I think this proves it. I think he was in on it with the others though. I think he saw the potential in having those dragons and that's why he insisted they let her in the first place.

It was painful watching Theon botch the execution. You can tell he's not cut out to be a ruler. He's a conflicted soul. On one hand he wants to please his real father and prove his sister wrong about him. On the other hand, he still feels loyalty to the Starks. Unfortunately (for Theon), I think Robb will get the last laugh on Theon in the end.

No Stannis story this week.

I think Arya ultimately will use the last of her killings on Tywin. Is she's smart enough, she might realize that killing the head of the snake might be the best way to get her revenge. On the other hand, it COULD make Joffrey (and Cercei) much more powerful.

I wonder how much more of Tyrion Joff and Cercei will take? Remember there were some pretty powerful hands before Tyrion (granted NOT a Lannister). I'm actually surprised they haven't gone whining to Tywin about Tyrion. At some point, I will think they will plot to have Tyrion killed, much like the did with Robert.

I'm also going to wait to read the books. I thought book one and season one were pretty close. I guess that's not the case with book 2. Thus, I don't want to read the books and have it ruin my enjoyment of the show (or vice versa).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Oh, forgot to add about Jon Snow. I kept thinking while he was chasing the wildling girl that he was getting hopelessly lost. Then I kept thinking this could wind up being an "Alive" moment for him, where he eventually kills her and eats her to survive. The spooning was kind of funny (especially since I watched this after watching an episode of Family Guy that was about...spooning). Snow is just so naive. I used to like his character, but I'm not sure if I do much anymore. I think he's going to wind up getting people killed because he doesn't listen. He needed to off her, but didn't.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Looking at the differences here:
> http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/The_Old_Gods_and_the_New/Book_Spoilers/#Book_to_Screen
> 
> The Dany part is the only change to seems significant (at least from what I can tell as someone who hasn't read the books). However, I think the most disappointing change is:
> ...





Spoiler



I consider that a major difference. I want to see those kicks!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Oh, forgot to add about Jon Snow. I kept thinking while he was chasing the wildling girl that he was getting hopelessly lost. Then I kept thinking this could wind up being an "Alive" moment for him, where he eventually kills her and eats her to survive. The spooning was kind of funny (especially since I watched this after watching an episode of Family Guy that was about...spooning). Snow is just so naive. I used to like his character, but I'm not sure if I do much anymore. I think he's going to wind up getting people killed because he doesn't listen. He needed to off her, but didn't.


See, I think Jon Snow might discover that not all Wildlings are the same. We know Osha is not.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> See, I think Jon Snow might discover that not all Wildlings are the same. We know Osha is not.


Possible. But I think Jon Snow is just too impulsive. It was shown a few times already, most notibaly his leaving the Wall to go fight with Robb last year and had to be convinced to come back. I see a scenario where he follows the wildling and wind up putting his cohorts in danger.

But I've been wrong about so much already


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

Zarisa said:


> Speaking for someone thats read to midway book 4. I'm really disliking the dirrection the show is heading. YES I know that TV shows/Movies are never like the book. But they generaly keep things pretty much on point when they translate them. This episode (without having to spoilerize anything) is starting to go down a path that concerns me. I watched all of season one prior to reading the books. I read after season one was complete. The book/season was almost 1 for 1. I know the crew has stated they won't be following season 2 : book 2 ratio. Which is fine....but for them to change such major points of the book concerns me. Yes I know...the book is the book...and the show is ...the show.


You keep saying "you know"... But I'm not sure you truly understand what it involved in an adaptation. (Translation is not a proper term) Adaptations range from very faithful to details, to faithful to themes, and just loosely based. By ANY reasonable metric, GOT has been one of the most faithfully adapted multi-novel books.



Zarisa said:


> But it's suppose to be a translated version of the book, not a different story. Yes that can be adapted to many different things.


A different story??? This kind of exaggeration frankly enrages me. The change of minor character fates, and minor events in the scope of the larger story does NOT(!!!) make it a "different story".



Zarisa said:


> It just concerns me that they are changing it up just to "Hollywood" things up. IE: The dragons being taken just to create a "OH NO" at the end of the episode is prime example of what bothers me. I hope they don't continue this trend.


Dany book discussion...


Spoiler



Most fans agree that the Dany story in book 2 is the weakest part of her journey - and the weakest part of the book. Besides a significant prophetic event, nothing of significance occurs in Qarth. As part of the adaptation they have opted to externalize her struggles into a more explicit character building journey. And there is no reason why the end-game of her Qarth journey will be the same as the book - so it will likely have no long term impact. Also, the lack of threat of someone trying to take her dragons at that point in the story could be argue to be a plot hole.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

For the love of God, let's PLEASE not start another argument over the book versus the show. This is a thread about the show (yes, I understand it's based on the book). We can't possibly go over this in every thread, can we?


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> For the love of God, let's PLEASE not start another argument over the book versus the show. This is a thread about the show (yes, I understand it's based on the book). We can't possibly go over this in every thread, can we?


Love of Old God or New God?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> For the love of God, let's PLEASE not start another argument over the book versus the show. This is a thread about the show (yes, I understand it's based on the book). We can't possibly go over this in every thread, can we?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=486826

Discuss away. Lets talk about the show here, I agree. I know it's hard, but pretend the book doesn't exist


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

fmowry said:


> Love of Old God or New God?


LOL. Joken's Red God seems to like math, I'll go with him!


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

Regarding whether Littlefinger recognized Arya, the official summary has an answer:

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones#...s/2/16-the-old-gods-and-the-new/synopsis.html

I'm not sure if the synopsis is written by someone with inside information or someone who's only watched the show, so it should perhaps not be taken as canon.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

My apologies for responding to book talk here - it won't happen again.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

markb said:


> Regarding whether Littlefinger recognized Arya, the official summary has an answer:
> 
> http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones#...s/2/16-the-old-gods-and-the-new/synopsis.html
> 
> I'm not sure if the synopsis is written by someone with inside information or someone who's only watched the show, so it should perhaps not be taken as canon.


I was going to be in the camp that he doesn't notice her. He kind of looks at her like he's trying to place her but then moves on with discussion with Tywin. I think had he noticed it would have been much clearer for the viewer.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

audioscience said:


> Hate to tell you there are only going to be more.





audioscience said:


> I was going to be in the camp that he doesn't notice her. He kind of looks at her like he's trying to place her but then moves on with discussion with Tywin. I think had he noticed it would have been much clearer for the viewer.


Well we know you have read the book, and you say he didn't notice her, so that ends the suspense right there.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

tiams said:


> Well we know you have read the book, and you say he didn't notice her, so that ends the suspense right there.


Book info, but not a spoiler.



Spoiler



Book readers have no advantage in this. Neither Tywin or Littlefinger are at Harrenhall during Arya's stay there in the book.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

tiams said:


> Well we know you have read the book, and you say he didn't notice her, so that ends the suspense right there.


Well, I read the books and I thought for sure that he noticed her. I don't recall at all what happened in the book and wouldn't be surprised if the original poster was in the same boat. Remember, we're talking about five nearly 1,000 page detail oriented books that are brimming with plot. All but the most astute book readers (or those who have read the books more than once) are going to be somewhat hazy on all but the most major of plot points (particularly those who read the books well before the series began).

I certainly understand the concern of those who haven't read the books that the thread not become overrun with spoilerized book discussion and have refrained from offering many comments because of this. But try not to drive yourself crazy with detective work comparing multiple posts to infer a spoiler that very likely isn't there.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

What heySkippy said. The show is taking some pretty big diversions from the book as of late and more than a few of the events with Arya aren't in the book. The scene with Littlefinger is one of them so I don't know whether or not he recognizes her. It's my _opinion_ and belief that he does not. We'll see.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> For the love of God, let's PLEASE not start another argument over the book versus the show. This is a thread about the show (yes, I understand it's based on the book). We can't possibly go over this in every thread, can we?


For the love of god, who made these rules up? They aren't forum rules as far as I know, and as far as I know, no moderator has ever stepped in and put a stop to it. So who made this official decree that, despite not breaking any of the rules of the forum, that discussion can't be here?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'd be curious to know out of all the people who read and post here regularly, how many have read book 2 and how many haven't. Someone should do a poll.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> For the love of god, who made these rules up? They aren't forum rules as far as I know, and as far as I know, no moderator has ever stepped in and put a stop to it. So who made this official decree that, despite not breaking any of the rules of the forum, that discussion can't be here?


A few people have taken it upon themselves to say that the spoilers are annoying and indirectly infer information they do not want to know. I respected the complaints by going to the book thread, but I am like you.

I feel like -----------> 



stellie93 said:


> I'd be curious to know out of all the people who read and post here regularly, how many have read book 2 and how many haven't. Someone should do a poll.


I have read through book three, so have knowledge of events through that book.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> For the love of god, who made these rules up? They aren't forum rules as far as I know, and as far as I know, no moderator has ever stepped in and put a stop to it. So who made this official decree that, despite not breaking any of the rules of the forum, that discussion can't be here?


I'm not saying it's against the rules, I'm just saying we have had this discussion over, and over, and over. How many times are we going to go over the same fraking thing?

if you want to have a discussion about the rules, the book versus the show, whether you should do it or not, who likes the spoilers and who hates them...etc. JUST READ THE THREAD FOR THE PREVIOUS EPISODE or any thread for any previous episode. We have had ALL these discussions already. A million times over.

I'm happy to discuss it in PM so we don't bore everyone else to tears about the same damn thing. AGAIN.

For the record: I think Littlefinger saw and recognized Arya. I can't imagine him not knowing what she looks like the second he sees her; and I'm pretty sure he saw her. I do applaud the director for making sure it's fuzzy and up for debate, though.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> For the love of god, who made these rules up? They aren't forum rules as far as I know, and as far as I know, no moderator has ever stepped in and put a stop to it. So who made this official decree that, despite not breaking any of the rules of the forum, that discussion can't be here?


The posters sort of did.

The rules for posting never had to deal with this sort of show. So they can't address it unless modified.

How about just being respectful in our choices. Is that so hard?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm not saying it's against the rules, I'm just saying we have had this discussion over, and over, and over. How many times are we going to go over the same fraking thing?


Well, we weren't having this discussion until you started it. And you stated it like it's a foregone conclusion that book discussion has to be in the other thread. And yes, I have read previous discussions. I've read every thread from every episode. I don't know where this decree came from. Every time, I've seen a bunch of arguing that it shouldn't be here, and I've seen a bunch of arguing that there's no reason it needs to leave. At one point it seemed more people were saying "just don't read the emails or read the forum on your broken mobile web browser". Now at this point you are acting like everyone should know it's the opposite.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I like to see discussion about the current episode and how it relates to the book. But as someone who hasn't read the book, I wouldn't dare set foot in a thread designated specifically for book readers as that's just asking for major spoilers. At least here, people keep it relevent to the current episode and are pretty discrete about any actual spoilers.

And no, I'm not taking it to PMs. You didn't keep your "book talk not welcome" post in PMs. Why should you express your opinion loudly and I have to be quiet so as to not distrub anyone?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> The posters sort of did.
> 
> The rules for posting never had to deal with this sort of show. So they can't address it unless modified.
> 
> How about just being respectful in our choices. Is that so hard?


What do you mean, being respectful in our choices? You mean I should be respectful of your choice in what I'm welcome to discuss here? You can't just choose for everyone. I like having these discussion here, and I choose to have them in this thread. Please be respectful of my choice. See how that works?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> What do you mean, being respectful in our choices? You mean I should be respectful of your choice in what I'm welcome to discuss here? You can't just choose for everyone. I like having these discussion here, and I choose to have them in this thread. Please be respectful of my choice. See how that works?


These threads are about an episode of a TV show. Discussion of the books have -zero- place here. Really, what does it have to do with this show? The show is what the show is. Let's discuss it to our heart's desire. But how do the books enter into this? Discussing how they differ, or what happened in the books has no relevance to these threads, which are a *discussion of a TV show.*

If you want to discuss the books, do it in the threads that say "book discussion".

Seriously, why is this even an issue?

PS: I've read up to Book Two. I plan on reading each book before each season, because... well, I like to have read the books when I watch TV/movies based on books. But I don't feel any overwhelming need to discuss those books. But you might. So find that thread and talk away.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

And hey, it's not just me. Here's a verbatim quote from Alan Sepinwall's blog...



> And finally, my attempt to keep these comments free of book spoilers has been mostly successful, but some people just don't seem to get it, or care. Once again, let me remind you of the spoiler policy as it relates to this show: we are here to TALK ABOUT THE TV SHOW AS A TV SHOW, AND NOT AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. If you want to talk about things from the books that haven't yet appeared on the show  whether they are plot points, characters we haven't met yet, still-to-be-explained motivation, etc.  please do so in the message board topic I set up for this episode. I don't care how clever or oblique you think you're being: NO BOOK DISCUSSION IN THE COMMENTS. PERIOD. Anything even vaguely over the line gets deleted, and if anyone notices a comment before I do, feel free to email me.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

astrohip said:


> And hey, it's not just me. Here's a verbatim quote from Alan Sepinwall's blog...


Who is Alan Sepinwall, and what do the rules of his blog have to do with this forum? So if I create my own blog with some rules, does that mean my rules apply to this forum too? I'm not really sure what your point is.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

astrohip said:


> These threads are about an episode of a TV show. Discussion of the books have -zero- place here. Really, what does it have to do with this show? The show is what the show is. Let's discuss it to our heart's desire. But how do the books enter into this? Discussing how they differ, or what happened in the books has no relevance to these threads, which are a *discussion of a TV show.*


The book has no relevance? I've learn a hell of a lot about this series by book readers posting about things that weren't in the show.



> If you want to discuss the books, do it in the threads that say "book discussion".


Because there's no rule saying I have to, and I see no reason I should go there. Going to a thread where the expectation is that everyone HAS read the book is just asking for spoilers to be posted right out in the open without spoiler tags.



> Seriously, why is this even an issue?


That's what I'm wondering. Why is this an issue?



> But I don't feel any overwhelming need to discuss those books. But you might. So find that thread and talk away.


No thanks, I'm more comfortable here.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> PS: I've read up to Book Two. I plan on reading each book before each season, because... well, I like to have read the books when I watch TV/movies based on books. But I don't feel any overwhelming need to discuss those books. But you might. So find that thread and talk away.


I've thought about doing that but I started watching the series and it is so well done, I've decided to read after. I didn't start watching until just before season 2 so I haven't read the first book yet. I'm going to read during the long downtime between seasons.


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## Mishkin (Apr 20, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Who is Alan Sepinwall, and what do the rules of his blog have to do with this forum? So if I create my own blog with some rules, does that mean my rules apply to this forum too? I'm not really sure what your point is.


Agree most wholeheartedly. In fact, I have a link to a blog that concurs.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> The book has no relevance? I've learn a hell of a lot about this series by book readers posting about things that weren't in the show.


Too bad you can't follow the show without the books. The shows have been quite clear.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Book info, but not a spoiler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Tywin is there, but has no contact with Arya


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## Uther (Dec 21, 2001)

Just put everybody who talks about the books here on ignore. Everybody will be happier.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

This is all my fault, and I'm sorry.

I don't care about people who read the book talking about it (it seems strange, since this is a thread about a show, but I respect their right to do so). I don't care if they put things in spoilers. I even learn a few things from people who give BACKGROUND info (which was very helpful in season 1).

What I complained about is the argument about "should we do this?" "is this allowed"...which is exactly what I started AGAIN, by my rant/plea (I thought I was pleading not to start, some people might consider it a rant).

My point is that we've discussed this. We all have differing views. People who read the book want to post. Some of us like it, some of us hate it, some are indifferent. So let's not argue about it. Let's everybody do what they will do ANYWAY  and let's just put spoiler stuff in spoiler text.

I did NOT want to know that the dragons being taken away was not in the books. That information should have gone to the other thread.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

While it's not in the rules, I just think it's just the respectful thing to do. Many of us here watch the show, but want to read the books too. To me, and this is my opinion, discussing the books here can ruin my enjoyment of the books. In fact, the fun part of reading the books AFTER the seeing the show is finding out how they differ. Reading about it here is just as much a spoiler as revealing what will happen in the next episode. That's why there's another thread for it. Just have a little respect for those of us he either haven't read the book yet and want to, or, and maybe even worse, are in the middle of the book and don't want to have it ruined for them. And this is even MORE an issue since it's been stated that there are some serious deviations from the book.

But I'm sure you won't see it my way.

And for Uther, who says block everyone, yeah, right, it's really hard to block someone AFTER they gave away a plot point form the book. I don't have a crystal ball to know who's going to post book stuff.

And I noticed that most of the people who say that it should be ok to post book stuff are relative newcomers to here (or don't post a lot). I think those of us who come regularly understand that there are written rules, but also UNWRITTEN ones that we all respect.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> And I noticed that most of the people who say that it should be ok to post book stuff are relative newcomers to here (or don't post a lot). I think those of us who come regularly understand that there are written rules, but also UNWRITTEN ones that we all respect.


Lurkers understand the rules. Don't hate because of low post counts.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Did I seriously just waste time on my vacation reading two pages of yet another book vs non book BS in this thread? For the love of Jeff people. Your spend more time arguing this point than talking about either. It's F'ing ridiculous! 

IMO I stand by my opinion that Littlefinger recognized her. I see him as someone that not much gets past and he'll save that info until it serves his interest (or pocket) to reveal.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Did I seriously just waste time on my vacation reading two pages of yet another book vs non book BS in this thread? For the love of Jeff people. Your spend more time arguing this point than talking about either. It's F'ing ridiculous!
> 
> IMO I stand by my opinion that Littlefinger recognized her. I see him as someone that not much gets past and he'll save that info until it serves his interest (or pocket) to reveal.


If you are on vacation, what are you doing HERE? 

Yeah, I know, we keep harping on it and nothing changes, but there's always some new voice that comes in and starts it all over again.

And I agree with your assessment.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think people simply HOPE that LittleFinger didn't recognize Arya (because we all love her and want her safe). But if you put your feelings aside and think of it logically, Arya lived at King's Landing for a few months. LittleFinger should recognize her instantly; this is the Hand of the King's daughter, after all.

Saying he wouldn't recognize her would be the same as saying Cersei or Joffrey wouldn't recognize her.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

It is very hard as a book reader to make comments in this thread. If it's that big a deal to everyone, then maybe we should do two different threads, book and non-book.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> It is very hard as a book reader to make comments in this thread. If it's that big a deal to everyone, then maybe we should do two different threads, book and non-book.


We do:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=486826


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Okay, I'm out of this thread then. Later!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

OK, lets discuss the show.

The Lannisters have quite a situation here. According to the rules of the land (both written and unwritten) their house has no real claim to the throne. But they've decided they want to rule anyway, and they just want everyone else to go along with their rule. So here they are, getting attacked left and right by Robb Stark saying "you have no right to rule...you have no more claim to the throne than any of us."

So Joffrey is just sitting here on his throne thinking "I just want to rule my lands in peace. For the love of the old gods and the new, can't you just take your little fights about who is King somewhere else? Westeros is my Kingdom. If you want to fight over who is king, go do it over in Essos. There's plenty of land their for your little wars".

But Robb is just like "I want to stay here. I'll be glad to end these wars if you'll just let us coexist. If you don't like what goes on in the North, then just ignore any of the ravens from the north."

But Joffrey is like "please, I've already been hit by a cowpie. I don't want your ravens pooping on me too."

So how do they solve this? With a beheading? The last time Joffrey tried to solve his problem with a beheading, it just got him into an even bigger mess.

Meanwhile, Dany is over in the paradise of Qarth, trying to enjoy a break from all the fighting, and now she's like "holy crap, who just took my dragons".

This show is so exciting. Can't wait to see what happens next.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> OK, lets discuss the show.
> 
> The Lannisters have quite a situation here. According to the rules of the land (both written and unwritten) their house has no real claim to the throne. But they've decided they want to rule anyway, and they just want everyone else to go along with their rule. So here they are, getting attacked left and right by Robb Stark saying "you have no right to rule...you have no more claim to the throne than any of us."
> 
> ...


But isn't Joffrey a Baratheon, not a Lannister? He is king because he inherited the throne from his "father". So isn't the throne considered to be held by a Baratheon? Or is it considered Lannister because his mother is queen regent?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Yes, Joff is a Baratheon and his throne derives from Robert. If some real proof were to appear that he is a bastard from incest, his claim to the throne vanishes and his mother becomes less than nothing.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

tiams said:


> But isn't Joffrey a Baratheon, not a Lannister? He is king because he inherited the throne from his "father". So isn't the throne considered to be held by a Baratheon? Or is it considered Lannister because his mother is queen regent?


He's a Baratheon in name only. His bloodlines are just Lannister as he's a product of Ceirce and Jamie. Since that secret is essentially out, that means he has no claim.

To me, there are two who have a true claim. Stannis (as Ned Stark said) as brother of Robert, and Danys, as the linear heir to the throne through the Targaryans. But Dany lost her claim by her father losing the war with Robert. She'd have to win it back via conquest.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Dany lost her claim by not having a penis. Women don't stand in line for the throne in Westeros (with the exception of Dorne) period. There has never been a woman sitting on the Iron Throne and it would be quite a departure if one did.

That's not to say she can't and won't conquer Westeros and change things, but the way it stands, she has no claim.


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## aRKade (May 22, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> He's a Baratheon in name only. His bloodlines are just Lannister as he's a product of Ceirce and Jamie. Since that secret is essentially out, that means he has no claim.
> 
> To me, there are two who have a true claim. Stannis (as Ned Stark said) as brother of Robert, and Danys, as the linear heir to the throne through the Targaryans. But Dany lost her claim by her father losing the war with Robert. She'd have to win it back via conquest.


So far publicly there has only been an _accusation_ that Joffrey is a bastard. Stannis is making his claim to the throne using that accusation but has no proof. Besides us TV watchers the only people who know the truth are the ones in power (or are dead). They certainly aren't going to make that information public. So as far as the public really knows Joffrey is the king with the true claim.

I'd say it is similar to the accusation that President Obama isn't an American. No one has shown any real proof but the accusation has been made. Difference of course is that this accusation is not true.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

aRKade said:


> Besides us TV watchers the only people who know the truth are the ones in power (or are dead). They certainly aren't going to make that information public. So as far as the public really knows Joffrey is the king with the true claim.


Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate? I thought the story had spread pretty far. After all, if Stannis wants to use it to claim the throne, he needs the people to know why his claim is just and be behind him.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate? I thought the story had spread pretty far. After all, if Stannis wants to use it to claim the throne, he needs the people to know why his claim is just and be behind him.


I could be wrong in my memory of what happened, but I thought Ned's proof had gotten to Stannis.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate?


Yes. Someone from the crowd yelled "he's a bastard"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I could be wrong in my memory of what happened, but I thought Ned's proof had gotten to Stannis.


Well...

even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.

Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate? I thought the story had spread pretty far. After all, if Stannis wants to use it to claim the throne, he needs the people to know why his claim is just and be behind him.





Steveknj said:


> I could be wrong in my memory of what happened, but I thought Ned's proof had gotten to Stannis.


In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Well...
> 
> even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.
> 
> Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!


Ned also had Cersei's confession after he confronted her with the truth.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.


That's what I thought. And that's the reason why Stannis believes he should be King.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Ned also had Cersei's confession after he confronted her with the truth.


...a conversation that Cersei surely denies ever having taken place


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Also Cersei as much as admitted it to Ned, Ned may have included that in the raven he sent to Stannis. Also even if Stannis didn't believe Ned's raven, I think his suspicions might have been raised by Cersei and Goffrey's subsequent actions (Beheading Ned, killing of he bastards). 
Also since Stannis wants to be king, he is probably more inclined to believe facts (or theories) that support the idea, kind of like the "Birthers" who refuse to believe Obama was born in Hawaii.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.


Not 'zactly. Ned wrote the document by hand and handed it to one of his men as a courier and said, "Put this in Lord Stanis's hand. Do not hand it to his man..."

As we saw Raven Express can be tapped with an arrow.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> ...a conversation that Cersei surely denies ever having taken place


Right. Is there any true way to prove Joffrey isn't a Baratheon other than getting a confession from Cersei or Jamie? It's not as if they can run DNA. And hell even those two cannot be 100% certain unless she was only sleeping with Jamie and obviously that isn't the case or Robert would have known.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

netringer said:


> Not 'zactly. Ned wrote the document by hand and handed it to one of his men as a courier and said, "Put this in Lord Stanis's hand. Do not hand it to his man..."
> 
> As we saw Raven Express can be tapped with an arrow.


Stannis specifically mentions later that Ned intended for him to be the heir, it was based off of the letter.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markb said:


> I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.


:up::up::up::up:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Right. Is there any true way to prove Joffrey isn't a Baratheon other than getting a confession from Cersei or Jamie? It's not as if they can run DNA. And hell even those two cannot be 100% certain unless she was only sleeping with Jamie and obviously that isn't the case or Robert would have known.


Agreed. Would Cersei herself even know for sure?! (I know I'm repeating what you just said, I just felt it deserved to be repeated!)


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Agreed. Would Cersei herself even know for sure?! (I know I'm repeating what you just said, I just felt it deserved to be repeated!)


If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.


oh yeah...I remember that now. Thanks!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TriBruin said:


> If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.


So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.


Well, like any other marriage, sex drops off (sigh) as the years go on. Especially in this one, I assume they did it enough at the beginning (don't forget the dark-haired boy who died as an infant) and then tailed off as time passed.

So he visited her every once in a while to do his duty (and probably to spite her and her family) and have more heirs. She let him visit at enough intervals to keep him from knowing the truth in case Jaime got her pregnant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.


Remember, he was always very drunk. All she would have to do the next morning is swoon over how awesome he was and he'd believe her.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Plus he screwed around. A lot.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Remember, he was always very drunk. All she would have to do the next morning is swoon over how awesome he was and he'd believe her.


That really works? Who knew!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

markb said:


> I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.


Better yet, let's make his queen be Janice Soprano. They'd be made for each other and that would be fun to watch.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well...
> 
> even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.
> 
> Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!


Wonder how genetics works in this land. It would have been more convincing if all the Baratheons were blonde and the little bastard (both literally and figuratively) were dark haired.

Not unheard of for a dark haired man and a blonde woman to have a fair haired child. Blonde hair is recessive but could run in the Baratheon genetics.


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