# Roamio mini with 2 mini's need help making moca connection (OTA user)



## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Hello. I am hoping someone can help me. I am trying to make a moca connection to allow me to use my mini's off my base Roamio. Let me describe my setup:

My roof mounted antennas are coupled together using a special combiner and go to a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp in my attic that then splits that signal to 3 TV sets (2 of those are where I want to use the mini's; the Roamio is on the other TV). My cable internet coaxial line runs into the very rear of the basement (it is the only place the internet coax enters the home). My Roamio is also on a television in this same room. My router and modem are also in this room.

I have been under the impression that I would need 1 moca adapter and this splitter to make it work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Right now, I have the Moca adapter at the front of the basement with the Roamio. I an ethernet cord connected from the Moca adapter to my router. I also have an ethernet cord connected from my Roamio to the same router. Where I am confused is how to connect the coaxial feed coming from behind the Roamio TV to allow for the Moca connection and how to properly utilize the splitter. If someone could please outline where I need to make the connections to with that coaxial line I would greatly appreciate it.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

You're going to need 2 MoCA adapters, 1 at your router and 1 at the Roamio. 

Use a 2-way splitter to split the internet coax cable coming into your basement. 

One out port of that 2-way splitter will go to the coax in port on the first MoCA adapter, then from the coax out port on the MoCA adapter to your cable modem, then by ethernet from your cable modem to your router, then by ethernet from your router back to that same MoCA adapter.

Use the other out port on the 2-way splitter to connect by coax to a second MoCA adapter sitting at your Roamio, then connect the MoCA adapter to the Roamio with an ethernet cable.

Use another 2-way splitter and split the coax coming in to the Roamio from your antenna and connect the MoCA adapter at the Roamio to one of the out ports on the 2-way splitter with a coax cable. The other out port connects by coax to your Roamio.

You should also get a POE MoCA filter and install it on the internet coax coming into the basement before the splitter.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Are you certain I need two adapters? Over at the AVS forum, they suggest I only need one (see post #1044; my username there is Warner2Bruce):

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...ws-simultaneously-3tb-storage-streams-35.html

I am only asking because I seem to keep getting conflicting information from different sources.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> Are you certain I need two adapters? Over at the AVS forum, they suggest I only need one (see post #1044; my username there is Warner2Bruce):
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...ws-simultaneously-3tb-storage-streams-35.html


Are the coax runs to the rooms that the Minis are located in connected to the coax drop from the cable company that you get your internet from? If they are connected, then I think you can just connect the Roamio to your router via ethernet and get away with a single MoCA adapter at the router. But if they aren't (and from your description it didn't sound to me like they are) then I think you are going to have to have 2 adapters and have it set up the way I described above.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> You're going to need 2 MoCA adapters, 1 at your router and 1 at the Roamio.
> 
> Use another 2-way splitter and split the coax coming in to the Roamio from your antenna and connect the MoCA adapter at the Roamio to one of the out ports on the 2-way splitter with a coax cable. The other out port connects by coax to your Roamio.
> 
> You should also get a POE MoCA filter and install it on the internet coax coming into the basement before the splitter.


I am little confused on the part where I would use another splitter. Would the coax coming in from the wall connect to the "in" on the splitter? Then what?

Also, does amazon or anyone else sell besides tivo sell a poe filter?

Would this poe filter work since I am OTA: http://www.amazon.com/Filter-MoCA-Cable-Coaxial-Networking/dp/B00DC8IEE6/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Are the coax runs to the rooms that the Minis are located in connected to the coax drop from the cable company that you get your internet from? If they are connected, then I think you can just connect the Roamio to your router via ethernet and get away with a single MoCA adapter at the router. But if they aren't (and from your description it didn't sound to me like they are) then I think you are going to have to have 2 adapters and have it set up the way I described above.


No the mini's are not connected to the same coax from the internet cable company. They are separate. I'm wondering if trying this Powerline adapter might be easier: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ILFFS6/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Someone over at AVS said it works when outlets aren't on the same side of the breaker.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Ok, I'll give this a shot. Based on your descriptions, the basement TV and OTA coax is at the "front" of the basement and the internet coax is at the "back" of the basement with the router. You've run Ethernet from the Roamio to the router. You've got the MoCA adapter hooked up at TV with Ethernet to the router. Is all that correct?

If so, you should just need to run the OTA coax to the "In" on the MoCA adapter and then run a piece of coax from the MoCA "out" terminal to the Roamio coax in. You shouldn't need the splitter in this situation. Then just connect the minis to the OTA coax in the respective rooms and set the network connection to use MoCA.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> No the mini's are not connected to the same coax from the internet cable company. They are separate. I'm wondering if trying this Powerline adapter might be easier: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ILFFS6/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
> 
> Someone over at AVS said it works when outlets aren't on the same side of the breaker.


If I understand your setup, you should be fine with the MoCA setup. It sounds like your 3 TVs are connected to the antenna coaxial cable. This is good. You Channel Master distribution amp should allow the MoCA to broadcast to both of your Minis.

As a quick test - assuming your moca adapter has both a coaxial in and out connector - disconnect the antenna coaxial from your Roamio and connect it to the IN connector on the MoCA adapter, then reconnect your Roamio to the MoCA adapters coaxial out. This would put your MoCA adapter inline to Roamio, and since your MoCA adapter is already connected to your router, your minis now should be all set to connect to your host dvr..

If you don't have an MoCA adapter with in and out connectors, then add your splitter before the Roamio, and connect your Roamio to one output and your MoCA adapter to another output on the splitter.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> I am little confused on the part where I would use another splitter. Would the coax coming in from the wall connect to the "in" on the splitter? Then what?
> 
> Also, does amazon or anyone else sell besides tivo sell a poe filter?
> 
> Would this poe filter work since I am OTA: http://www.amazon.com/Filter-MoCA-Cable-Coaxial-Networking/dp/B00DC8IEE6/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t


You should not need a POE filter since your MoCA bridge is on your antennas coax, not your internet providers cable.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Okay, so just ignore my first post. I think I confused myself and made it way more complicated than it needed to be. I think it should work with one MoCA adapter. This is what I get for not drawing myself a diagram and thinking it through better first. So, I drew a diagram.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tatergator1 said:


> Ok, I'll give this a shot. Based on your descriptions, the basement TV and OTA coax is at the "front" of the basement and the internet coax is at the "back" of the basement with the router. You've run Ethernet from the Roamio to the router. You've got the MoCA adapter hooked up at TV with Ethernet to the router. Is all that correct?
> 
> If so, you should just need to run the OTA coax to the "In" on the MoCA adapter and then run a piece of coax from the MoCA "out" terminal to the Roamio coax in. You shouldn't need the splitter in this situation. Then just connect the minis to the OTA coax in the respective rooms and set the network connection to use MoCA.


Yes you are correct about the description of the location of the basement TV with the Roamio and the location of the OTA coax at the "front" of the room and the location of the internet coax and router being at the "back" of the room.

I also ran the OTA coax to the "In" on the Moca adapter, then a piece of coax from the Moca "out" to the Roamio coax in. I had one Mini connected to the OTA coax in a different room and the "coaxial" light of the moca adapter does not come on.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> If I understand your setup, you should be fine with the MoCA setup. It sounds like your 3 TVs are connected to the antenna coaxial cable. This is good. You Channel Master distribution amp should allow the MoCA to broadcast to both of your Minis.
> 
> As a quick test - assuming your moca adapter has both a coaxial in and out connector - disconnect the antenna coaxial from your Roamio and connect it to the IN connector on the MoCA adapter, then reconnect your Roamio to the MoCA adapters coaxial out. This would put your MoCA adapter inline to Roamio, and since your MoCA adapter is already connected to your router, your minis now should be all set to connect to your host dvr..
> 
> If you don't have an MoCA adapter with in and out connectors, then add your splitter before the Roamio, and connect your Roamio to one output and your MoCA adapter to another output on the splitter.


 I think this is the same thing tater described. I am using this moca adapter: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008C1JC4O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Okay, so just ignore my first post. I think I confused myself and made it way more complicated than it needed to be. I think it should work with one MoCA adapter. This is what I get for not drawing myself a diagram and thinking it through better first. So, I drew a diagram.


If I am correct, isn't your drawing showing what the user tater described. I had the OTA coax coming from my wall connected to the in port of the moca adapter. Then a piece of coax from the "out" of the moca adapter to the coax input of the Roamio. I connected an ethernet cord from the moca adapter to the router. I connected another ethernet cord from the base Roamio to the same router. I only tried connected the OTA coax from one room is in to one Mini, but the "coax" light on the Moca adapter never lit up to green like the ethernet and power lights.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Could this distribution amp I am using to split my antenna signal to 3 TV's be causing the problem: http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...411870785&sr=1-1&keywords=channel+master+3414

I called Channel Master on Friday and they told me it was Moca compatible.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

would this amp work better http://www.pctstore.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=PCTMABF14P


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mulliganman said:


> Could this distribution amp I am using to split my antenna signal to 3 TV's be causing the problem: http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...411870785&sr=1-1&keywords=channel+master+3414
> 
> I called Channel Master on Friday and they told me it was Moca compatible.


But will it work at the MoCA frequencies the TiVos use? MoCA can cover a wide range of frequencies. But the lowest MoCA channel that the TiVos use is channel 15. Which is 1150Mhz. Everything else the TiVos use is a higher frequency.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> But will it work at the MoCA frequencies the TiVos use? MoCA can cover a wide range of frequencies. But the lowest MoCA channel that the TiVos use is channel 15. Which is 1150Mhz. Everything else the TiVos use is a higher frequency.


How can we find out what will work?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> How can we find out what will work?


By trying it.

For what it's worth I am using a drop amp very similar to the one you are using, specifically, this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005P12QME/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and I haven't had any problems with it working with my MoCA network. If you are worried the amp is causing problems, as a test, you could try temporarily replacing your powered amp with an unpowered splitter to see if that changes your MoCA signal levels.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> By trying it.


LOL! So I should just buy and return hoping something might work?


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Here is a list from PCT of what they list as their MOCA amplifiers: http://pctcorporate.com/real-time-dox/hfc-networks/amplifiers.html


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> Here is a list from PCT of what they list as their MOCA amplifiers: http://pctcorporate.com/real-time-dox/hfc-networks/amplifiers.html


I could be wrong, but I think the only difference between their "MoCA amps" and the rest is just that the MoCA ones have a POE filter built in. In your case, that wouldn't really make a difference, since you are using yours with an antenna rather than cable.

(p.s. I added to my last post after you had responded)


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I could be wrong, but I think the only difference between their "MoCA amps" and the rest is just that the MoCA ones have a POE filter built in. In your case, that wouldn't really make a difference, since you are using yours with an antenna rather than cable.
> 
> (p.s. I added to my last post after you had responded)


Good to know. I saw you added to it. I will try swapping the Channel Master amp for a regular splitter and see if it changes anything. If it does I wonder if putting an amp first then splitter would make a difference? Is your Moca setup like mine?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> Here is a list from PCT of what they list as their MOCA amplifiers: http://pctcorporate.com/real-time-dox/hfc-networks/amplifiers.html


This document, and the embedded links explain everything, down to the most finite level, and also include marketing speak, dumbed-down, so the network engineers can present "why they need this", to those who have to sign-off, but wouldn't know the diagrams from some form of "modern art".

I take it I just have a natural understanding of what the schematics and diagrams portray, and others don't, or there would be no questions?

I took a trial-run at seeing if anybody would jump-in on something I usually would be right on top of. I almost lost hope, that anybody was going to go further than "keep trying things until you find something that works" advice.

Everything you need to know is right in this document. If you don't understand a term, look it up. I wasn't born with all this pre-programmed.

Most of the simple solutions are as simple as an amp with a single input, a single output, a PoE filter placed on the OUT/forward-channel side of the amp, then a splitter. It may look like many splitters, because that's what's done inside of splitters with more than two OUT ports. They split splits.

Most of the recent help that has been a success has involved drop amps that only have a single IN and single OUT (not counting a coax port for amp power only), where the PoE is placed between the OUT port of the amp, and the first splitter. Many of these fancy amps are just cramming everything involved in the simple solution I just described, inside of one device.

They portray use of non-consolidated devices as "adding points of failure". But, I'd rather have a splitter go bad, that isn't inside an amp. Easy to diagnose and replace.

Unless you know what is going on inside a multi-output amp, and understand it, I think you should stick with amps with a single amplified OUT port, put the PoE filter there, add a splitter after it, and enjoy the MoCA.

If you find you need something not amplified, you can always put a splitter ahead of the amp, and connect that device there. I think that keeping things visible, and changeable to what you need, without having to swap in a whole different everything-in-one amp, is the new right approach for those who don't understand the schematics.

If you understand the schematics, you'd know exactly which amp you need, already, with the only doubt being "Will this all-in-one amp still work for me, if I change something later?" Sometimes a change could force you to change the whole integrated device to another model. If you stick with a simple amp, PoE filter, and some splitters, you can change things that can't be changed in these integration-centric amps. If the PoE filter, amp, or a splitter fails, you can replace just that part.

I'm not sure how I feel right now... I've been trying to drill it into people that MoCA can NOT be allowed to be processed by an amp (or an "equalizer", which is simply a very weak amp), but needs to bypass the amp, or sidestep it. Everything I've been fighting over has just been laid-out, proving any MoCA getting inside an amp, is a bad thing, should cause problems, generally not even work, and/or barely work, if it somehow does work.

Since this is an OTA situation, many will be quick to say a PoE filter has no use here. WRONG! You still place it between the amp-out and first split. That keeps the MoCA out of the amp. The thing you DON'T want, is an amplified return path, sending any amplified RFI to your antenna.

I'm still working out the best ways for those who are tethered to cable for internet, but use OTA-only for TV. The possibilities of configurations for this are just endless (that's not a good thing)...

Thank you, mulliganman! The link you provided will be put to good use, as there's no shortage of MoCA problems on TCF, every day of the week, where there tends to often be an amp involved, or somebody is about to get an amp, not realizing what an amp will do to MoCA, if not installed properly (the MoCA spectrum must bypass the amp, or otherwise pass-through, unchanged, by having another path to take).

It appears my advice to put the MoCA PoE filter after the amp, rather than before it, finally has full backing, besides how many people have been helped with such advice. I've always hated powered amps/splitter combos, where what goes on inside isn't clear. You took care of this brand for me! Thank You!

Well, back to my corner for now. I do have things to do, that won't get done if I don't step back away from TCF for a bit.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> This document, and the embedded links explain everything, down to the most finite level, and also include marketing speak, dumbed-down, so the network engineers can present "why they need this", to those who have to sign-off, but wouldn't know the diagrams from some form of "modern art".
> 
> I take it I just have a natural understanding of what the schematics and diagrams portray, and others don't, or there would be no questions?
> 
> ...


O.K. guys an update. Let me recap the setup before what I changed. Action Tec Moca adapter above my Tivo. Coax from my wall to the "in" on the Moca Adapter. Coax from the "out" on the Moca adapter to the coax input on my base Roamio. Ethernet connection from the Moca adapter to my router. Ethernet connection from the Roamio to the same router.

Now for what I changed. My initial lead runs into the attic into this distribution amp now: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=sky38323

from the "out" of the Skywalker amp to the "in" of this splitter: http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=HFS-Series-Broadband-Splitters

Then 3 coax cables connected from the "out" of the Holland splitters to the 3 TV's respectively.

When I made this change, I finally got the "coax" light on the Action Tec Moca adapter to turn solid green. The only trouble is even after going on on the mini and changing the connection type to "moca" and trying to connect it won't connect. I get a connection failed error message with some sort of letter and number combination (I can get it if I need to).

So, my question why I am unable to connect to the mini now that I have the solid green light on the "coax" portion of the Moca adapter?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> O.K. guys an update. Let me recap the setup before what I changed. Action Tec Moca adapter above my Tivo. Coax from my wall to the "in" on the Moca Adapter. Coax from the "out" on the Moca adapter to the coax input on my base Roamio. Ethernet connection from the Moca adapter to my router. Ethernet connection from the Roamio to the same router.
> 
> Now for what I changed. My initial lead runs into the attic into this distribution amp now: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=sky38323
> 
> ...


That Skywalker amp is entirely outdated, and if not for you being OTA, I'd say it has absolutely no place on your RF coax network (especially when using MoCA). For OTA, it should be the first device in the chain from the coax from the antenna.

I don't see a mention of you placing a MoCA PoE filter between the amp and the first demarcation splitter. It needs one, even though you are OTA. Trust me, or don't. You still want a PoE filter blocking MoCA from getting inside the amp, and the output side is where it should be.

*EDIT/ADD: Those splitters are entirely, 100% the wrong splitters. They are DC-power-passing splitters, made for satellite.* Just find some 1GHz, or 1.2GHz, rated ones, with no power passing capabilities. You might be frying your tuners and MoCA devices, right now, if there is any DC present, and those splitters are allowing it to pass.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> That Skywalker amp is entirely outdated, and if not for you being OTA, I'd say it has absolutely no place on your RF coax network (especially when using MoCA). For OTA, it should be the first device in the chain from the coax from the antenna.
> 
> I don't see a mention of you placing a MoCA PoE filter between the amp and the first demarcation splitter. It needs one, even though you are OTA. Trust me, or don't. You still want a PoE filter blocking MoCA from getting inside the amp, and the output side is where it should be.
> 
> *EDIT/ADD: Those splitters are entirely, 100% the wrong splitters. They are DC-power-passing splitters, made for satellite.* Just find some 1GHz, or 1.2GHz, rated ones, with no power passing capabilities. You might be frying your tuners and MoCA devices, right now, if there is any DC present, and those splitters are allowing it to pass.


I have the coax going to that Skywalker amp before the Holland splitter. Where can I find any that I can pick up to switch out. I have this Channel Master amp I can switch out for the skywalker amp: http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...411931546&sr=8-1&keywords=channel+master+3410

Where can I get the splitters than I can run and grab one right now? Can you link to any from Lowes, Walmart, Radio Shack that i can go get?

In the meantime, I am going to connect back to the Channel Master 3414 and take out the Holland splitter until you can help me find the right splitter.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

where is the splitter from your initial post? 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> where is the splitter from your initial post?
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


It is not in use. I tried connecting to the Skywalker, then to that splitter. But, when I was using it I couldn't get the "coax" light on the Action Tec adapter to light up.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

LOL now I can't even get my Roamio to connect to the internet.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> I have the coax going to that Skywalker amp before the Holland splitter. Where can I find any that I can pick up to switch out. I have this Channel Master amp I can switch out for the skywalker amp: http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...411931546&sr=8-1&keywords=channel+master+3410
> 
> Where can I get the splitters than I can run and grab one right now? Can you link to any from Lowes, Walmart, Radio Shack that i can go get?
> 
> In the meantime, I am going to connect back to the Channel Master 3414 and take out the Holland splitter until you can help me find the right splitter.


The Channel-Master-CM-3410-Distribution-Amplifier looks to be a good choice, once a PoE filter is placed on the output port.

Buying splitters locally is hit and miss. Most have gone mail-order, like in this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=519676

The splitters, accepted there, as the best option, for the best price (and can be bough on Amazon: http://www.amt.com/images/products//MCR-B-ME-2E_Data_Sheet.pdf

Home depot has some decent splitters in my area, but they also carry a whole bunch of junk. The decent ones will be priced over $10 more than mail-ordering known good ones.

PCT, as in the same company that makes all these Channel Master, and other reboxed amps on Amazon, surely must be fine for splitters, as well. Just make sure not to exceed 1.2GHz rating (1GHz is all you really need), and they don't pass-power, or otherwise say anything about being made to work with satellite.

The only power-passing you want going on, is if you have to use a power-inserter to backfeed the power to the amp.

Happy hunting. Feel free to post some more listings to peruse. But, I have a lot to do, and can't devote the usual 12hrs/day I often do on TCF right now. If I'm coming across as short and snarky, it's probably because I have literally dozens of things I need to be working on. So, sorry about that, and sorry if it takes a while to get back to you.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

jwbelcher said:


> where is the splitter from your initial post?
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


That's one of the MCR splitters I just recommended!

One thing that might be getting overlooked here, is that every unused coax port on any amp, splitter, or run, needs a 75-ohm terminator placed on it. I see them listed as "frequently purchased with..." every time I look at all the Amazon links that are being posted.

I don't see not using terminators as 100% killing MoCA (usually). But, every unused, unterminated, port will have negative consequences, and will add-up to that, at some point.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> The Channel-Master-CM-3410-Distribution-Amplifier looks to be a good choice, once a PoE filter is placed on the output port.
> 
> Buying splitters locally is hit and miss. Most have gone mail-order, like in this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=519676
> 
> ...


I don't see that MCR splitter on amazon. Am I missing something? Anyone got a link?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> I don't see that MCT splitter on amazon. Am I missing something? Anyone got a link?


According to jwbelcher, you already posted you have one (MCR): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here's the two-port one, listed down below the 4-port one: http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-spl...d_sim_e_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0C2DZZMP141NN7PZ83B4


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> LOL now I can't even get my Roamio to connect to the internet.


Something to consider - your secondary TVs do not need connected to your antenna feed. You could create a MoCA network with your adapter, splitter, and mini runs. The splitter has nothing connected to the "in", the splitter "out" have the minis and the moca adapter connect it. It eliminates the amp from the network and does not require a PoE filter. This is how my Moca is configured. see attached


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

jwbelcher said:


> Something to consider - your secondary TVs do not need connected to your antenna feed. You could create a MoCA network with your adapter, splitter, and mini runs. The splitter has nothing connected to the "in", the splitter "out" have the minis and the moca adapter connect it. It eliminates the amp from the network and does not require a PoE filter. This is how my Moca is configured. see attached


That's one way to do it. The terminator on that unused IN port is critical that it be there, and eliminates PoE filter worries.

As far as MCR & PCT splitters go, as well as Extreme Broadband ones, terminators, filters, amps, and other related items, on Amazon, unless somebody has some serious tracking protection and ad-blocking enabled, it's one-stop shopping on Amazon, if you just scroll down, and then sideways through suggestions.

To state the obvious: It's always best to use splitters with the ports you need, rather than lose signal by having extra ones, which also require terminators. The exception is if the signal from an input/amp is too high, splitters with more ports bring the signal down.

I suggest people with any power-passing splitters just get rid of them, so they don't wind up being forgotten as useless for MoCA, and possibly harmful to non-satellite devices, and accidentally get grabbed later on down the road.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> Something to consider - your secondary TVs do not need connected to your antenna feed. You could create a MoCA network with your adapter, splitter, and mini runs. The splitter has nothing connected to the "in", the splitter "out" have the minis and the moca adapter connect it. It eliminates the amp from the network and does not require a PoE filter. This is how my Moca is configured. see attached


How are you suggesting connecting the other mini's and Action Tec adapter to the splitter in your drawing since they are in separate rooms?

One problem I need to figure out right now is why I can't even connect my Roamio to the network. I have two routers Netgear R7000 flashrouter and an Asus RT-N66U "regular" router. I have the Action Tec Adapter and the Roamio connected to the Asus but when I go into the Tivo menu it won't make a connection. When I swap them to the Netgear flashrouter, my Roamio connects but then a mini I tested on says "gateway not found." Weird.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

jwbelcher said:


> Something to consider - your secondary TVs do not need connected to your antenna feed. You could create a MoCA network with your adapter, splitter, and mini runs. The splitter has nothing connected to the "in", the splitter "out" have the minis and the moca adapter connect it. It eliminates the amp from the network and does not require a PoE filter. This is how my Moca is configured. see attached


Why can't he just connect the output of the moca adapter to the input of the splitter in relation to your diagram?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

jwbelcher said:


> Something to consider - your secondary TVs do not need connected to your antenna feed. You could create a MoCA network with your adapter, splitter, and mini runs. The splitter has nothing connected to the "in", the splitter "out" have the minis and the moca adapter connect it. It eliminates the amp from the network and does not require a PoE filter. This is how my Moca is configured. see attached


Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried just using a two-way splitter to connect your MoCA bridge to IN, and the two Minis on the OUTs? That should work better, due to the MoCa bridge having lowered loss to the OUTs, and the path between the IN-OUTs/OUTs-IN being bidirectional, with no imbalance between the duplex directions, and no isolation to overpower through. That should improve your PHY.

I see some logic in "keeping things balanced", the way you have the port isolation distributed, but only if the MoCA signal was somehow too strong (I have yet to see such a condition).

You could also stick with the 3-way, put the MoCA bridge on IN, terminate the center port, then hook the two Minis on the outer two ports, still seeing improvement (with a balanced splitter).

The question that remains (and matters), is if you are using a balanced or unbalanced 3-way splitter. The balanced ones are -5.5dB per OUT, and the unbalanced ones are -3.5dB, -7dB, -7dB. In that case, I'd terminate the -3.5 port, then use the -7 ports for each Mini, still with improvement, but the improvement gets lesser the further this post goes on, to now. If one of the Minis has a longer run, then it would make sense to place that run on a -3.5 port, to compensate for loss due to length of run (more balancing).

The last config, for an unbalanced 3-way, is to connect the MoCA bridge to the -3.5, then the Minis to the -7 OUTs, still leaving the IN unused and terminated (if there's a reason for doing so).

I'm wondering if you might have things set up the way you do, to let you easily take the terminator off, and bridge coax segments with each other?

EDIT (before even posting): Of course, HarperVision got his short question in on this, before I could post. I'm asking the same question, just being more thorough.

The only time it is important to only use OUT ports, is when the splitter is integrated into an amp (like all amps with multiple OUTs) thus internal, and use of the IN port would take MoCA down, due to how the amp would "brick wall" the MoCA (or have fits trying to cope with it), in 99.98% of cases, where the amp doesn't have an internal MoCA band pass-band, to keep MoCA out of the amp. Of course, even if using an IN-OUT only amp, with an external splitter added, you want that PoE filter between the amp OUT and splitter IN.

I'm posting this to help everybody, see if you have special circumstances (my curiosity), or just assumed you couldn't use the IN port of a splitter for what you are doing.

I'm now attaching your more detailed diagram that you updated, but still leaves the same questions.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=21625&d=1411939302


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> How are you suggesting connecting the other mini's and Action Tec adapter to the splitter in your drawing since they are in separate rooms?


I'm just saying you could disconnect the amp from splitter. The downside is you'll need another outlet in your home to bridge the coax with Ethernet. Most folks only have 1 outlet per room so its not convenient. My splitter is in a On-Q panel with Ethernet access, so my Moca bridge lives there and is disconnected from my cable tv. I've updated the diagram attached


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried just using a two-way splitter to connect your MoCA bridge to IN, and the two Minis on the OUTs? That should work better, due to the MoCa bridge having lowered loss to the OUTs, and the path between the IN-OUTs/OUTs-IN being bidirectional, with no imbalance between the duplex directions, and no isolation to overpower through. That should improve your PHY. I see some logic in "keeping things balanced", the way you have the port isolation distributed, but only if the MoCA signal was somehow too strong (I have yet to see such a condition). * You could also stick with the 3-way, put the MoCA bridge on IN, terminate the center port, then hook the two Minis on the outer two ports, still seeing improvement (with a balanced splitter). *The question that remains (and matters), if if you are using a balanced or unbalanced 3-way splitter. The balanced ones are -5.5dB per OUT, and the unbalanced ones are -3.5dB, -7dB, -7dB. In that case, I'd terminate the -3.5 port, then use the -7 ports for each Mini, still with improvement, but the improvement gets lesser the further this post goes on, to now. If one of the Minis has a longer run, then it would make sense to place that run on a -3.5 port, to compensate for loss due to length of run (more balancing). The last config, for an unbalanced 3-way, is to connect the MoCA bridge to the -3.5, then the Minis to the -7 OUTs, still leaving the IN unused an unterminated. I'm wondering if you might have things set up the way you do, to let you easily take the terminator off, and bridge coax segments with each other? *EDIT (before even posting): Of course, HarperVision got his short question in on this, before I could post. I'm asking the same question, just being more thorough. * The only time it is important to only use OUT ports, is when the splitter is integrated into an amp (like all amps with multiple OUTs) thus internal, and use of the IN port would take MoCA down, due to how the amp would "brick wall" the MoCA (or have fits trying to cope with it), in 99.98% of cases, where the amp doesn't have an internal MoCA band pass-band, to keep MoCA out of the amp. Of course, even if using an IN-OUT only amp, with an external splitter added, you want that PoE filter between the amp OUT and splitter IN.


 I guess some of us have a life outside of TCF? Great suggestions though guys!


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

HarperVision said:


> I guess some of us have a life outside of TCF? Great suggestions though guys!


My "things piling up that need to be done" life is really catching up.

Please lay off any further personal insults & general hostility (you know what I'm talking about), and we can get along just fine.

Most of my life outside TCF is directly related to how I know what I know, when I participate on TCF. Love it, or hate it. But, please, let's just call a truce, and get back to how things used to be. I need all the TCF Amigos I can get.

Some days I just want to walk away, and have come close. But, here I am, trying to help, rather than getting my 3rd Roamio back online, after all that hard drive testing I've been doing for months, just to be able to back up what I report on the matter, in the near future.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

HarperVision said:


> Why can't he just connect the output of the moca adapter to the input of the splitter in relation to your diagram?


I had read on TCF somewhere to avoid the IN and while troubleshooting some other issues, I moved it to an OUT port. I later found my issue was unrelated.



nooneuknow said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried just using a two-way splitter to connect your MoCA bridge to IN, and the two Minis on the OUTs? That should work better, due to the MoCa bridge having lowered loss to the OUTs, and the path between the IN-OUTs/OUTs-IN being bidirectional, with no imbalance between the duplex directions, and no isolation to overpower through. That should improve your PHY.
> I'm posting this to help everybody, see if you have special circumstances (my curiosity), or just assumed you couldn't use the IN port of a splitter for what you are doing.
> 
> I'm now attaching your more detailed diagram that you updated, but still leaves the same questions.
> ...


Yea, I wish it were more logic behind it, like you've laid out. It was simpler to explain as just disconnecting from the input source. I don't have anything that would contradict using the IN rather than hanging off an OUT. Also, if mulliganman issues were due to his amp, perhaps it would resolve his issue by remove it from the equation.



HarperVision said:


> I guess some of us have a life outside of TCF? Great suggestions though guys!


Yea, we really should!


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

jwbelcher said:


> I had read on TCF somewhere to avoid the IN and while troubleshooting some other issues, I moved it to an OUT port. I later found my issue was unrelated.
> 
> Yea, I wish it were more logic behind it, like you've laid out. It was simpler to explain as just disconnecting from the input source. I don't have anything that would contradict using the IN rather than hanging off an OUT. *Also, if mulliganman issues were due to his amp, perhaps it would resolve his issue by remove it from the equation.*
> 
> Yea, we really should!


You could make a great contribution to my shared knowledge base by trying the two-way and using the IN port. But, most importantly, it would only be helpful if you took notes on before & after PHY and any other noted changes, making sure to give things time to settle-in, then share your notes.

The troubleshooting you speak of sounds perfectly reasonable/logical. But, if unrelated to the problem you were troubleshooting, I recommend using a 2-way and putting the MoCA bridge to the IN port.

I agree 100% with the part I placed in bold, and underlined. Get things up without any amps first, take notes, try adding in an amp, if truly necessary, and take notes. Post the notes, and TCF just became a better place.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> You could make a great contribution to my shared knowledge base by trying the two-way and using the IN port. But, most importantly, it would only be helpful if you took notes on before & after PHY and any other noted changes, making sure to give things time to settle-in, then share your notes.
> 
> The troubleshooting you speak of sounds perfectly reasonable/logical. But, if unrelated to the problem you were troubleshooting, I recommend using a 2-way and putting the MoCA bridge to the IN port.
> 
> I agree 100% with the part I placed in bold, and underlined. Get things up without any amps first, take notes, try adding in an amp, if truly necessary, and take notes. Post the notes, and TCF just became a better place.


I actually am using an 8-way splitter for my MoCA network. Each having a direct run to the room with the Mini. My plan was to have the Moca on the IN and 8 Minis hanging off. The issue I found was random C501 errors on the Minis when 8 were connected to the same host. I'm now down to 7 minis and the bridge on the OUT port. However, I wouldn't mind putting it back on the IN and posting back here the before and after.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> My "things piling up that need to be done" life is really catching up. Please lay off any further personal insults & general hostility (you know what I'm talking about), and we can get along just fine. Most of my life outside TCF is directly related to how I know what I know, when I participate on TCF. Love it, or hate it. But, please, let's just call a truce, and get back to how things used to be. ..........


You seemed to be the one to have fired the first salvo......



nooneuknow said:


> ....... *EDIT (before even posting): Of course, HarperVision got his short question in on this, before I could post. I'm asking the same question, just being more thorough. * ........


.....but I'm game if you stop the snide remarks? Just because I'm way too busy in my personal and professional life to post War & Peace sized replies as you do doesn't mean I shouldn't contribute what I can, right?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

HarperVision said:


> You seemed to be the one to have fired the first salvo......
> .....but I'm game if you stop the snide remarks? Just because I'm way too busy in my personal and professional life to post War & Peace sized replies as you do doesn't mean I shouldn't contribute what I can, right?


Assigning blame might come across as childish to many. Accusing me of snide remarks in the quoted post is absolutely false.

You also just insulted me, again, implying I don't have a personal life.

Infractions are issued for matters like "Insulted Other Member(s)". I feel insulted. There was no blame implied in my post, nor was there any malicious intent. I simply was trying to maintain the flow of the thread, since you got your quick post in, before my long, thought-out, post was posted (and preview message shows when other posts have come in).

Please just coexist in peace, or let me know if we should mutually ignore each other.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Should any of the things I did including the wrong splitter caused any reception problems. My Roamio is showing significant decreased signal strength on all channels and I even lost a couple. When checking signal strength it doesn't even turn green. My internet has gone completely wacky too. i had to find a free wifi spot to post.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Assigning blame might come across as childish to many. Accusing me of snide remarks in the quoted post is absolutely false. You also just insulted me, again, implying I don't have a personal life. Infractions are issued for matters like "Insulted Other Member(s)". I feel insulted. There was no blame implied in my post, nor was there any malicious intent. I simply was trying to maintain the flow of the thread, since you got your quick post in, before my long, thought-out, post was posted (and preview message shows when other posts have come in). Please just coexist in peace, or let me know if we should mutually ignore each other.


No insult intended, just putting it into perspective.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> Should any of the things I did including the wrong splitter caused any reception problems. My Roamio is showing significant decreased signal strength on all channels and I even lost a couple. When checking signal strength it doesn't even turn green. My internet has gone completely wacky too. i had to find a free wifi spot to post.


If any of the amps had active power-passing ports, or a DC injector was used, with the incorrect satellite splitters with DC-pass through capability, resulting in DC power being injected into places it didn't belong (essentially everything except the amp itself) any or all devices connected, if DC power was injected, may have been damaged.

Do you have any way to substitute a signal, to verify if you got the worst-case scenario, like a set of amplified rabbit ears, to substitute a signal source, to test each device's tuner/demodulator?

Do you have any devices that you know were never possibly subjected to DC power injection, to test the signal source you were using?

It's time to do process of elimination, via substitution, and eliminating possibilities, as well as hoping it's not as dire as I fear.

This is exactly why I tell those who use satellite equipment for CATV or OTA, that they shouldn't use satellite actives/passives, like DTV splitters, as they always have a minimum of one DC-pass through port, and I say it is bad-practice to recommend such equipment to others...

This is one of those cases where I'd much rather be wrong, when it comes to what I think may have happened.

If you have not already done a hard power-pull reboot of everything, that's the first step, to hopefully proving my suspicions wrong. Good luck.

Sorry that I held-off joining the party...


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> If any of the amps had active power-passing ports, or a DC injector was used, with the incorrect satellite splitters with DC-pass through capability, resulting in DC power being injected into places it didn't belong (essentially everything except the amp itself) any or all devices connected, if DC power was injected, may have been damaged.
> 
> Do you have any way to substitute a signal, to verify if you got the worst-case scenario, like a set of amplified rabbit ears, to substitute a signal source, to test each device's tuner/demodulator?
> 
> ...


I don't have any rabbit ears. Instead of plugging my tv coax into the Roamio as it was while trying to get things figured out, I plugged into a Channel Master DVR+ and lost the same stations on it. I also tried plugging directly into the coax input on the TV and have lost the same channels. I am using this http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer general hookup Info.pdf (with DC pass even though there is no amplifier at the antennas) to combine my Antennas Direct 91 XG antenna with an Antennas Direct C2V antenna. It's the channels off the 91XG that I've lost.

Does any of that tell us anything?


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

It doesn't sounds like your Tivo got fried since your other equipment is behaving similarly.

Is everything back exactly as it was?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Sounds like either the signal combiner or the 91XG antenna went bad to me. Is it amplified (the 91XG)? Have you checked the coax from the 91XG to make sure it's still connected properly and something didn't sever it?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

jwbelcher said:


> I actually am using an 8-way splitter for my MoCA network. Each having a direct run to the room with the Mini. My plan was to have the Moca on the IN and 8 Minis hanging off. The issue I found was random C501 errors on the Minis when 8 were connected to the same host. I'm now down to 7 minis and the bridge on the OUT port. However, I wouldn't mind putting it back on the IN and posting back here the before and after.


An 8-port splitter is essentially 4 two-ways, fed by 2 two-ways, fed by 1 two-way. That's a 10.5 to 11.5dB (5-1002MHz) loss from the IN port, to any one of the OUT ports.

There's an increased port-to-port isolation for the MoCA to have to punch through, in multiple layers, if feeding the "pyramid" of splits using an OUT port. 22-36dB isolation (5-1002MHz).

Using the IN port should make a great deal of difference, due to the topology eliminating much of the isolation, and only dealing with insertion & return loss.

Of course the stated numbers are 5-1002MHz, so they'll be higher at MoCA spectrum, but the MoCA will have higher power than the 5-1002 band, so it's a balancing-act.

Where it could get tricky, is when you have, say 8 MoCA devices, on the OUT ports, and they need to cross-talk, traversing all those port isolations. From where I stand (more like sit, with a headache), there's no advantage to using an OUT port for the MoCA bridge, and the downside just gets greater, with every increase in output ports, on the splitter.

Now you are armed, and dangerous. It's time to set you loose on your setup, and see how the change in topology works.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> I don't have any rabbit ears. Instead of plugging my tv coax into the Roamio as it was while trying to get things figured out, I plugged into a Channel Master DVR+ and lost the same stations on it. I also tried plugging directly into the coax input on the TV and have lost the same channels. I am using this http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer general hookup Info.pdf (with DC pass even though there is no amplifier at the antennas) to combine my Antennas Direct 91 XG antenna with an Antennas Direct C2V antenna. It's the channels off the 91XG that I've lost.
> 
> Does any of that tell us anything?


As others have said, it sounds like something on the antenna side of things, where my level of expertise drops off a cliff.

Looking at the AC7 PDF, and what I could quickly find on the 91XG, it sounds like something might have required power injected, and lost it during the changes you made, or if no power is required, the damage I feared went the direction of the TiVo, and such, may have injected the other direction. Those power injectors are often directional, where you have three ports, the power enters one, exits another, but doesn't pass through the other nipple. Some can pass injected power through both ports. Then, any splitters or diplexers on that side of things, may actually require that DC pass-through to some things, and perhaps not others.

On the bright side, it does seem to be on the antenna side of of combining/splitting. On the dark side, I don't have time to take a crash-course on being an expert on the antenna-specific equipment. Sorry...

Let me know when you have that side of things ironed-out.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> Sounds like either the signal combiner or the 91XG antenna went bad to me. Is it amplified (the 91XG)? Have you checked the coax from the 91XG to make sure it's still connected properly and something didn't sever it?


Neither of my antennas have an amp on them. I am only using the distribution amp in the attic. I haven't checked the coax on the 91xg but it seems like it would be awfully odd for that to happen today.... I have put in a message to find out from the station if they are having any issues.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> Neither of my antennas have an amp on them. I am only using the distribution amp in the attic. I haven't checked the coax on the 91xg but it seems like it would be awfully odd for that to happen today.... I have put in a message to find out from the station if they are having any issues.


I've seen critters do strange things to antenna coax! 

Try bypassing the 91 XG antenna around the combiner and run straight to your TiVo or TV and see if you get that channel now. If so it points to the combiner or associated cables you bypassed. I agree with nooneuknow regarding possible damage from the power inserter as well.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> I've seen critters do strange things to antenna coax!
> 
> Try bypassing the 91 XG antenna around the combiner and run straight to your TiVo or TV and see if you get that channel now. If so it points to the combiner or associated cables you bypassed. I agree with nooneuknow regarding possible damage from the power inserter as well.


To be clear, when you refer to power inserter what exactly are you referring to?

Are you thinking the antennas and the AC7 combiner is damaged?

As I was putting things back they were connected to my antenna, after I reattached the Channel Master 3414 to my antenna I noticed my Internet was working properly again. So, I thought I would reconnect the Action Tec Moca adapter. Lo and behold, the Moca was working for me. I have no idea what is different because the first time I tried it with the 3414 it didn't work. Crazy.

As a side note, I noticed with that Moca adapter connected to the Tivo, the channels I am getting are weaker (to the point many don't even get to green when checking signal strength) . My question is does the Moca adapter have the same effect on an OTA signal as the four tuner Roamio does (reducing it because it is splitting that signal to four tuners)? I am going to check later night by directly plugging the coax into the Roamio to see if it makes a difference. Just wondering now. I have a couple of RCA preamps I could add to the antennas if I needed to and it would still work with Moca. I am just trying to figure out what I may need to replace.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> As I was putting things back they were connected to my antenna, *after I reattached the Channel Master 3414 to my antenna I noticed my Internet was working properly again. *


Huh? unless i missed your explanation, there is something you are not telling us (and on AVS). its like pulling teeth. your OTA amp should have nothing to do with your internet setup. they should not be on the same line, they should not be on the same spliter or amp, they have to be completely separate.

you need to stop what you are doing and map out your wiring, draw it correctly and post it.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

ur OTA amp should have nothing to do with your internet setup. they should not be on the same line, they should not be on the same spliter or amp, they have to be completely separate.

you need to stop what you are doing and map out your wiring, draw it correctly and post it.[/QUOTE]

Um Excuse me! Yes I am well aware that the internet coax and Antenna coax are on two separate lines. I have already explainwas trying to get the moca to work yesterday I ran into soems (possaging my antenna combiner or antenna(s). Around the same time aftr I got it up on the Moca adapter y internet was not working. While the was down, I was switching my antenna setupto the way it was before I ttemptedthe Moca. After troubleshooting with my ISP, I got the nternet working. Since I had the internet woking again and had the antenna setu to the way it was before I began messing with the Moca, thought why not connect the Action Te Moca adapter and see if it orked. Low ad behold it did. 
I did not keep any information from anyone. If you are annoye with ny of my posts, feel free to not respond. Just for the record, I have not really posted anything new over at avs since early yesterda Quite rankly, I have found the folks over here much more receptive an willing to help than over at avs.

Right now my attention is on whether or not my antenna equipment may be damaged. Once I get that resolved, I will turn my attention back to how to keep the moca but also make sure any damage doesn't occur again.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> Right now my attention is on whether or not my antenna equipment may be damaged. Once I get that resolved, I will turn my attention back to how to keep the moca but also make sure any damage doesn't occur again.


Yes, you'll have signal loss using the TV out from the moca adapter. You would be better to go direct from your CM amp to your Roamio. Btw, is it possible to pull another cable from your splitter to a location close to your router? That would let you create the moca network without goofing around with your antenna signal. If not, you could try a splitter right before going into the Roamio (one side going to the moca adapter, the other the roamio), that's also going to also cause some degradation, but maybe less.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> Yes, you'll have signal loss using the TV out from the moca adapter. You would be better to go direct from your CM amp to your Roamio. Btw, is it possible to pull another cable from your splitter to a location close to your router? That would let you create the moca network without goofing around with your antenna signal. If not, you could try a splitter right before going into the Roamio (one side going to the moca adapter, the other the roamio), that's also going to also cause some degradation, but maybe less.


Could you clarify for me what exactly you are asking by pulling another cable from the splitter to a location near the router? Thanks.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> To be clear, when you refer to power inserter what exactly are you referring to? Are you thinking the antennas and the AC7 combiner is damaged? As I was putting things back they were connected to my antenna, after I reattached the Channel Master 3414 to my antenna I noticed my Internet was working properly again. So, I thought I would reconnect the Action Tec Moca adapter. Lo and behold, the Moca was working for me. I have no idea what is different because the first time I tried it with the 3414 it didn't work. Crazy. As a side note, I noticed with that Moca adapter connected to the Tivo, the channels I am getting are weaker (to the point many don't even get to green when checking signal strength) . My question is does the Moca adapter have the same effect on an OTA signal as the four tuner Roamio does (reducing it because it is splitting that signal to four tuners)? I am going to check later night by directly plugging the coax into the Roamio to see if it makes a difference. Just wondering now. I have a couple of RCA preamps I could add to the antennas if I needed to and it would still work with Moca. I am just trying to figure out what I may need to replace.


I thought it was established that your antennas were powered and used coaxial power inserters while you were talking to nooneuknow? He mentioned them and how they can induce voltage on the line and if your splitters don't have DC blocking capabilities, it can travel into the F connectors of your devices in the chain like your TiVo, TV, etc. If not, then disregard. That's what I was referring to.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> I thought it was established that your antennas were powered and used coaxial power inserters while you were talking to nooneuknow? He mentioned them and how they can induce voltage on the line and if your splitters don't have DC blocking capabilities, it can travel into the F connectors of your devices in the chain like your TiVo, TV, etc. If not, then disregard. That's what I was referring to.


The antennas I have are the Antennas Direct Clearstream 2V and the Antennas Direct 91XG. There are no preamps in use at the antenna. There is the Tinlee AC7 combiner I linked from post #50 located near the antennas that has DC pass built into it if I should ever need it. The coax from that combiner runs into my attic, where I have the Channel Master 3414 distribution amp (I also have the Skywalker distribution amp I linked to in post #24 and a Channel Master 3410 distribution amp I linked to in post #26 but neither of them are currently in use.

Nooneyouknow did make mention of the Holland splitters from post #24 and post #25 that are DC power passing splitters that said I needed to remove immediately (which I have). The only time I tried them was to follow a single in single out powered port he suggested in post #23. But, again I immediately removed them after he said they were the wrong kind to use.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

HarperVision said:


> I thought it was established that your antennas were powered and used coaxial power inserters while you were talking to nooneuknow? He mentioned them and how they can induce voltage on the line and if your splitters don't have DC blocking capabilities, it can travel into the F connectors of your devices in the chain like your TiVo, TV, etc. If not, then disregard. That's what I was referring to.


As somebody else suggested, it's time to map out (map, not describe) the way this member's network (ethernet, bridges, coax, amps, splitters MoCA, etc.) is set-up. This needs to come from mulliganman.

It's clear the wrong splitters were being used. The distribution topology, and exactly what devices were in use, and where, to begin with, after each change, and what is now being used, is all too muddy to provide clarity, at this point.

I had to sideline myself when it seemed a problem had been isolated to antenna equipment I'm not familiar with. But, I'm still standing-by, hoping the picture gets clearer, and the antenna diplexing/combining equipment issue gets taken care of. Until then, I'm stuck on the sidelines.


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

Aero 1 said:


> you need to stop what you are doing and map out your wiring, draw it correctly and post it.


I think this would be very useful as well.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Right now I am waiting to hear back from the engineers at my local Fox station. That is the main station I lost. I contacted them on their facebook page. They got in touch with the engineers and then passed along that the engineers wanted me to contact them directly. Right now, just waiting to hear back if there are any problems in my area. If not, then we know there is a problem with an antenna and/or possibly the Tinlee AC7 combiner.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> As somebody else suggested, it's time to map out (map, not describe) the way this member's network (ethernet, bridges, coax, amps, splitters MoCA, etc.) is set-up. This needs to come from mulliganman.
> 
> It's clear the wrong splitters were being used. The distribution topology, and exactly what devices were in use, and where, to begin with, after each change, and what is now being used, is all too muddy to provide clarity, at this point.
> 
> I had to sideline myself when it seemed a problem had been isolated to antenna equipment I'm not familiar with. But, I'm still standing-by, hoping the picture gets clearer, and the antenna diplexing/combining equipment issue gets taken care of. Until then, I'm stuck on the sidelines.


I can try to do the map as it is right now when I get home from work this evening.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> Could you clarify for me what exactly you are asking by pulling another cable from the splitter to a location near the router? Thanks.


Instead of having your Roamio and Moca on the same line, you could pull another cable and prevent the signal degradation.

Your CM amp has 4 ports out. You have 1 for your Roamio, 2 for your Minis, which should leave 1 for the Moca bridge. The only trouble is getting another cable pulled down from the attic to a spot where you have an Ethernet port available to create the moca bridge.

NOTE - I'm not recommending using your CM amp for your splitter. I'd rather see you use a dedicated splitter for your moca network.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> I can try to do the map as it is right now when I get home from work this evening.


I've attached a map of my setup.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Still trying to troubleshoot the antenna. After putting everything back minus the Skywalker amp, here are the signal strengths I noticed on the Roamio:

3-1: 40
10-1:45
21-1:42
21-2: 42
21-3:42
27-1: 52
33-1: 57
33-2: 57
49-1: no digital signal 
49-2: no digital signal

Signal strengths remained the same as those listed above after also removing the Moca adapter so that seems to have little affect on the reduced signal strength of my channels.

Now below are the signal strengths I am receiving after everything connected as shown in the attachment.

3-1: 67
10-1: 72
21-1: 72
21-2: 72
21-3: 72
27-1: 72
33-1: 67
33-2: 67
49-1: 32
49-2: 32

It seems odd but that second distribution amp (the Skywalker) is making a huge difference somehow on my signal strength. I think one thing that tells me about the antenna situation is that C2V must be okay because I receive every channel except 49-1 and 49-2 from it. I'm not sure what the 32 signal strength on the 49-1 and 49-2 channels (up from no digital signal detected) is telling me about the 91xg antenna or the Tinlee AC7 combiner.

Even though I'm still trying to troubleshoot the antenna situation, I included the information above because I see it pertinent to a final moca setup. Obviously, a good moca setup in which I have poor or no signal strength is not beneficial.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> I've attached a map of my setup.


Other OTA items I have available to modify my setup if needed:

2 of these preamps: http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Antenna-Pre-Amplifier/14554631

1 of these distribution amps: http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...412047599&sr=8-1&keywords=channel+master+3410

1 of these splitters: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...&qid=1412047650&sr=8-2&keywords=moca+splitter


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> I've attached a map of my setup.


As a straight forward experiment, take one of the Minis to the basement and connect it directly to the Moca adapter running to the Roamio. Disconnect the cable from the CM3414. You won't get OTA TV but you can watch a recorded program using the Mini. If that works, then you you know your Moca adapter, your Mini, and your Roamio are working properly.

Next, add a 2-way splitter to the cable to the Mini and add the CM3414 to the other leg of the splitter. You should get OTA TV on the Roamio and the Mini.

If the Roamio and Mini are working with your Moca adapter, then the CM3414 is suspect. I googled CM3414+Moca and could not find anything useful. You could take your CM3414 to the basement and connect it between your Mini and the Moca adaptor and see if it works without OTA TV.

Presuming you try the above, please report back.

Good luck!


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

kokishin said:


> As a straight forward experiment, take one of the Minis to the basement and connect it directly to the Moca adapter running to the Roamio. Disconnect the cable from the CM3414. You won't get OTA TV but you can watch a recorded program using the Mini. If that works, then you you know your Moca adapter, your Mini, and your Roamio are working properly.
> 
> Next, add a 2-way splitter to the cable to the Mini and add the CM3414 to the other leg of the splitter. You should get OTA TV on the Roamio and the Mini.
> 
> ...


I'm curious why you think the CM3414 is problematic at all? My moca connection is working as it is configured in the attachment (I can consider a modification but probably need to get the antenna problem solved first). Unless you are thinking that is the reason why I am not getting the OTA signal from my 91xg antenna. The C2V has to be working because I am now getting the channels from it just fine.

I've got a new 91XG on the way and am going to bring out a repairman/installer to check the one currently on the roof by bypassing the Tinlee combiner and see if I get stations then. If I do get the stations by bypassing that Tinlee combiner, the Tinlee combiner is likely malfunctioning or bad. If I still get nothing after bypassing, then I suppose I won't know which might not be working until replacing the 91xg antenna with the 91xg I have on order.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

kokishin said:


> As a straight forward experiment, take one of the Minis to the basement and connect it directly to the Moca adapter running to the Roamio. Disconnect the cable from the CM3414. You won't get OTA TV but you can watch a recorded program using the Mini. If that works, then you you know your Moca adapter, your Mini, and your Roamio are working properly.
> 
> Next, add a 2-way splitter to the cable to the Mini and add the CM3414 to the other leg of the splitter. You should get OTA TV on the Roamio and the Mini.
> 
> ...


Regarding the 2 way splitter, this is the only one I believe I have lying around: http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=HFS-Series-Diode-Steered-Splitters

Is that one alright to use while testing as you suggested?


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> I'm curious why you think the CM3414 is problematic at all? My moca connection is working as it is configured in the attachment (I can consider a modification but probably need to get the antenna problem solved first). Unless you are thinking that is the reason why I am not getting the OTA signal from my 91xg antenna. The C2V has to be working because I am now getting the channels from it just fine. I've got a new 91XG on the way and am going to bring out a repairman/installer to check the one currently on the roof by bypassing the Tinlee combiner and see if I get stations then. If I do get the stations by bypassing that Tinlee combiner, the Tinlee combiner is likely malfunctioning or bad. If I still get nothing after bypassing, then I suppose I won't know which might not be working until replacing the 91xg antenna with the 91xg I have on order.


Geeze..., I missed your post where you clearly stated: _So, I thought I would reconnect the Action Tec Moca adapter. Lo and behold, the Moca was working for me. I have no idea what is different because the first time I tried it with the 3414 it didn't work. Crazy._

Nothing to see here. Carry on.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> I'm curious why you think the CM3414 is problematic at all? My moca connection is working as it is configured in the attachment (I can consider a modification but probably need to get the antenna problem solved first). Unless you are thinking that is the reason why I am not getting the OTA signal from my 91xg antenna. The C2V has to be working because I am now getting the channels from it just fine. I've got a new 91XG on the way and am going to bring out a repairman/installer to check the one currently on the roof by bypassing the Tinlee combiner and see if I get stations then. If I do get the stations by bypassing that Tinlee combiner, the Tinlee combiner is likely malfunctioning or bad. If I still get nothing after bypassing, then I suppose I won't know which might not be working until replacing the 91xg antenna with the 91xg I have on order.


You're on the right track with this approach. Aren't you able to just bypass the tinlee to only the 91XG using a barrel F connector? That would be a quick and easy test.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Count me out.

There's far too much conflicting information.
We are supposed to memorize OP's posts, and every change made. But, OP doesn't seem able to recall his own posts, or ours.
Questions asked, answered, some even confirmed/agreed-upon by more than one member, are being asked again.

Throw in the OTA components, issues with OTA + MoCA, complete with multi-antenna combining/diplexing equipment, and some apparent attitude over the CM3414 amp, and it's just too much. Sorry.

I've contributed as much as I can, equipment-wise, yay or nay votes, and suggestions.

Regardless of how it comes across, I felt it would be polite to say I'm out, and why, than just go silent. I've verified that all the answers and advice I can give, are already present.

There are other threads devoted to MoCA, where there's not much left to ask, that hasn't already been answered.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Count me out.
> 
> There's far too much conflicting information.
> We are supposed to memorize OP's posts, and every change made. But, OP doesn't seem able to recall his own posts, or ours.
> ...


its like pulling teeth. try doing it on two different forums. it took him a while to volunteer that he had the 3414 after a bunch of posts, then it was suggested to him that the amp was the problem, he brushed it off because he says the amp is off limits and doesn't want to go in the attic and swap it, had to be educated on frequencies that the amp doesnt support and he still tells people why are we so hung up on this amp.

like someone said, nothing to see here, move along.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> Count me out.
> 
> There's far too much conflicting information.
> We are supposed to memorize OP's posts, and every change made. But, OP doesn't seem able to recall his own posts, or ours.
> ...


I apologize if you think there is conflicting information. I would also ask you reconsider as you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject. Most of the last couple pages of this thread is a result of trying to troubleshoot from the modification to the setup I made as I was trying to implement your advice of a single in, single out amp followed by a splitter in post #23. In post #24, I outlined how I changed to try to implement your advice only to learn I used the wrong splitter.

As there seemed to be confusion about what the setup was and at yours and other requests, I posted a map in post #63. Any discussion regarding equipment suggestions should operate from that as a base (just knowing that as it is shown in that map Moca is working for me).

Even though the Moca network is working again as shown in the map of post #63 I am willing to consider suggestion changes to that configuration if it is safer and better for my system in the long run. Contrary to Aero's idea, I am not married to the idea of having to use the Channel Master 3414. I am married to the idea of having strong signals from my stations while also utilizing the Moca connection.

Really what is at issue is how to have a strong signal while incorporating any suggestions you or other users have (this explains post # 70 to show how my situation requires strong amplification to have a good signal on the Roamio; if it would help I could post my tvfool report). Ultimately, it all boils down how to mix amp usage with a good, dependable moca setup.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Aero 1 said:


> its like pulling teeth. try doing it on two different forums. it took him a while to volunteer that he had the 3414 after a bunch of posts, then it was suggested to him that the amp was the problem, he brushed it off because he says the amp is off limits and doesn't want to go in the attic and swap it, had to be educated on frequencies that the amp doesnt support and he still tells people why are we so hung up on this amp.
> 
> like someone said, nothing to see here, move along.


I am going try to be an adult here. You are making things out to be much worse than they are or have been. Yes, when I began seeking help with a moca setup i started on the avs forum (my last post in that thread was from 9-28. Exaggerate much????). You gave suggestions which I was trying to verify and understand. I am thankful for your initial suggestion because had it not been for that I would not have ever known I could accomplish a moca network with only one of the Action Tec Moca adapters Tivo uses. Before that and even a time or two after, Tivo support themselves continue to insist that I needed two adapters or other support agents said it wasn't even possible at all. I had given up on the idea of a moca setup using coax because of all the conflicting info and confusion I had. In fact, the tech I brought out was to look at an ethernet solution. When they were at my home, they told me ethernet was not a possibility. I told them about moca and they said it had to be possible. I put them on the phone with tivo support who continued the dance of conflicting information with them for well over an hour before my tech finally got someone to agree that your suggestion about the single adapter setup would work.

Let me speak to the Channel Master 3414 amp comment. As I stated in another post, I am not married to the idea of having to use that. What I am married to is making sure my antenna signal has enough amplication that I have strong enough signals to be able to utilize the moca connection. After all, what good is a moca connection in a Tivo whole home setup if the signal is so low you have picture issues. The Roamio has 4 tuners so it can be a challenge to get a strong enough signal to it especially if you have any stations with low signals in your area.

Now the frequency comment you made has truth to it. I didn't understand the frequency with it. So, I apologize for not being an expert already before coming to seek assistance. If you are annoyed by that, I am sorry. Just don't post if you are not going to be helpful because I don't appreciate your insulting personal attacks.

P.S. You are misusing the "nothing to see here move along" comment that you are referring to. That user was simply saying he hadn't read carefully and his suggestion was all for naught and to continue the path I have set to restoring the signal for Channel 49.1 and 49.2 (Fox).


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> You're on the right track with this approach. Aren't you able to just bypass the tinlee to only the 91XG using a barrel F connector? That would be a quick and easy test.


To anwer your question, I am going to run coax from the 91XG to the "in" of the Skywalker amp shown on the map I provided. That should be a quick way to tell if the antenna is working or not.

Other than possibly changing out that antenna for an exact replica if the one installed fails the outlined test, I only have one change planned to my setup (as shown in the map). Since I am calling out someone anyway I am going to have them move the Tinlee combiner into the attic in front of the amps. I think if I encounter any antenna issues in the future it might make troubleshooting a little easier.

As I alluded to in another couple of posts I made this evening, if everyone still thinks it is wrong in the long run to use the Channel Master 3414 in part of a Moca coax setup (even though it is working right now) I am willing to consider modifications (including splitter changes, POE filters, amps, etc.) But, i would like suggestions addressing how to do so while still taking into consideration the amplication needs of my OTA signals. I outlined in post #70 what happened to my OTA signals on the Roamio when I only used one of the drop amps (we have to remember the base Roamio has 4 tuners).

I do have a couple of these preamplifiers laying around that could be utilized on any of the antennas if need be: http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Antenna-Pre-Amplifier/14554631

Just FYI, the replacement 91XG is set to arrive Wednesday and i have installers coming out to my house late Thursday.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Wow. Sure, these Antenna+MiniOnMoca+CableModem setups can be tricky.

But, I strongly suggest you just follow jwbelcher's last wiring diagram, at least in spirit.

This method provides the best signal quality for each device, and most importantly isolates the performance of each.

After doing that, you'll have 3 types of Coax.
Antenna (TV)
Cable (Modem)
MoCA (LAN/IP/Mini)

The only reservation I have with it is, it wasn't clear whether you're trying to run the TV's tuners separate from the Romio's 4 tuners. In that case, it would have to be modified slightly, but I would still try to run it that way in the diagram first for sanity.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> Wow. Sure, these Antenna+MiniOnMoca+CableModem setups can be tricky.
> 
> But, I strongly suggest you just follow jwbelcher's last wiring diagram, at least in spirit.
> 
> ...


OP (mulliganman), if you want my advice, it's to follow this guy's advice. But, none of the alleged fake/half-measures some have made accusations of.

I'm not saying I believe them, or validating them. I'm just saying that telemark is one of TCF's heroes when it comes to technical matters, and his level of skill exceeds mine. If you do as he says, you'll get there.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> Wow. Sure, these Antenna+MiniOnMoca+CableModem setups can be tricky.
> 
> But, I strongly suggest you just follow jwbelcher's last wiring diagram, at least in spirit.
> 
> ...


Looking back at jwbelcher's diagram, if I understand it correctly is that the Action Tec Moca adapter would no longer be connected directly to the Roamio. Instead, it looks like it is connected directly to a new coax line ran from the splitter and the router. Can I use this splitter in that approach: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And in jwbelcher's approach it looks like there is no direct Tv feed to the mini's anymore. If that setup works I can just play around and see what combination of what you guys are calling drop amps (I am only familiar with the term distribution amp) and/or preamp might provide the strongest tv signal from my two antennas to the Roamio. The only thing not shown in his diagram is the 2nd antenna and the Tinlee combiner which I am going move to the attic. Am I correct in my interpretation of the diagram?

The jwbelcher diagram is dependent upon the ability to run a new line of coaxial cable from the splitter to the Action Tec Moca adaper. If this proves to not be possible to run that new line of coax, is there an alternate configuration that would work well and still allow me to have a strong OTA signal? If someone has an idea about an alternate, could you please provide a map like jwbelcher did. It would help making it easier to understand.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> Looking back at jwbelcher's diagram, if I understand it correctly is that the Action Tec Moca adapter would no longer be connected directly to the Roamio. Instead, it looks like it is connected directly to a new coax line ran from the splitter. Can I use this splitter in that approach: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Correct. The splitter looks like a fine choice as recommended by nooneuknow.



mulliganman said:


> And in jwbelcher's approach it looks like there is no direct Tv feed to the mini's anymore. If that setup works I can just play around and see what combination of what you guys are calling drop amps (I am only familiar with the term distribution amp) and/or preamp might provide the strongest tv signal from my two antennas to the Roamio. The only thing not shown in his diagram is the 2nd antenna and the Tinlee combiner which I am going move to the attic. Am I correct in my interpretation of the diagram?


Yes, correct. The antenna box in my diagram can be considered a composite of two antennas and the combiner. I'm not able to speak to the amps and preamps choices, but it sounds reasonable to try combinations that provide the best result.



mulliganman said:


> The jwbelcher diagram is dependent upon the ability to run a new line of coaxial cable from the splitter to the Action Tec Moca adaper. If this proves to not be possible to run that new line of coax, is there an alternate configuration that would work well and still allow me to have a strong OTA signal? If someone has an idea about an alternate, could you please provide a map like jwbelcher did. It would help making it easier to understand.


Yea, it requires a new line of coax. The main point is to separate the moca and the antenna feeds. I understand the feasibility of running another cable to the basement. I've attached an alternate hookup if you have another TV outlet in your home that's also near to a Ethernet drop. It maybe easier to run cat5 than coax to make this one work.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

mulliganman said:


> Can I use this splitter in that approach: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKT3VY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Yes and No. The frequency is correct. But in this setup, you need fewer MoCA ports. So you would get the 2-way or 3-way version of the splitter you posted, which gives you lower insertion loss.



> If that setup works I can just play around and see what combination of what you guys are calling drop amps (I am only familiar with the term distribution amp) and/or preamp might provide the strongest tv signal from my two antennas to the Roamio.


Yah, probably the biggest advantage in doing this is just that. Just don't blow out your tuner because there's no longer a "distribution" network. It's just a straight run to one box, (which might have a 4 way splitter inside for 4 tuners).



> The jwbelcher diagram is dependent upon the ability to run a new line of coaxial cable from the splitter to the Action Tec Moca adaper.


The MoCA bridge can be anywhere Coax to Attic and Ethernet meet. Another option is running a new Antenna line, which might make sense if it's not actually the right type for the antennas.



> If this proves to not be possible to run that new line of coax, is there an alternate configuration that would work well and still allow me to have a strong OTA signal? If someone has an idea about an alternate, could you please provide a map like jwbelcher did. It would help making it easier to understand.


There is a backup method, but it doesn't provide any advantages besides avoiding that cable. The equipment is special order only, and it's rare enough that no one here will volunteer to advise you on it. (experience from prior threads) So I'll cover it as a last resort option, and/or when the antenna is known to be working just right.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> Correct. The splitter looks like a fine choice as recommended by nooneuknow.
> 
> Yes, correct. The antenna box in my diagram can be considered a composite of two antennas and the combiner. I'm not able to speak to the amps and preamps choices, but it sounds reasonable to try combinations that provide the best result.
> 
> Yea, it requires a new line of coax. The main point is to separate the moca and the antenna feeds. I understand the feasibility of running another cable to the basement. I've attached an alternate hookup if you have another TV outlet in your home that's also near to a Ethernet drop. It maybe easier to run cat5 than coax to make this one work.


Thank you for taking time to respond! On this new alternate, I'm not seeing how it's different than the first other than coax is running to the "in" of the splitter instead of the "out". Am I overlooking something?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

He was trying to show it does not have to be in the basement. That the MoCA bridge could be in another room that has an unused Coax port..
Then the "long" wire is an ethernet cable instead of a Coax cable.

Another example, is putting the bridge in the attic, and running a Cat5 line between Attic and Basement.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

telemark said:


> He was trying to show it does not have to be in the basement. That the MoCA bridge could be in another room that has an unused Coax port..
> 
> Then the "long" wire is an ethernet cable instead of a Coax cable.
> 
> Another example, is putting the bridge in the attic, and running a Cat5 line between Attic and Basement.


Exactly, I just threw in a picture to help explain what I meant.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> He was trying to show it does not have to be in the basement. That the MoCA bridge could be in another room that has an unused Coax port..
> Then the "long" wire is an ethernet cable instead of a Coax cable.
> 
> Another example, is putting the bridge in the attic, and running a Cat5 line between Attic and Basement.


I see that now the bridge was in a different room. I"m just not sure if it possible to run a Cat5 ethernet line. When I had given up on Moca and called some tech out they told me I couldn't run ethernet into the two rooms where the mini's are now. We'll just have to see I guess.

I know what you saying about being careful to not overdrive the Roamio tuner. First thing will be reestablishing a signal for Fox from the 91XG. If we are able to do that, then I will have my installers look at the setup you and jwbelcher recommend and the alternate. If we get to do that tomorrow, the first setup will be with a single distribution (drop) amp and see what the signal looks like on the Roamio before considering any additional alterations regarding amps. Just having the TV signal sent to one television with the four tuners may make quite a bit of difference instead of sending it to 3 tv's with one of them having four tuners alone. I guess the downside to this is not having the ability to run a TV signal to more than 1 T.V.

The Moca splitter I already have may have to be used (capping the extra port) until I can get this (I'm not sure I can get either to my house by tomorrow around 4 p.m.): http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...&qid=1412179564&sr=8-3&keywords=moca+splitter

or this one: http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-splitter-output-enabling-5-1200MHz/dp/B004JKUMW8/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y

Frankly, I am hoping the first setup will work because I am not hopeful about the ethernet line possibility.

I don't think I saw either jwbelcher or you address this. Do either of the setups you are describing require the use of a POE filter or filters?

Finally, just to be clear there is no scenario where feeding the tv signal into a single input single output amp and then into a Moca splitter that sends everything out of that splitter is a good option (knowing option 1 and the alternate are the preferable methods)?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

If you have MoCA rated splitters on hand but with too many ports, that's fine to use for the MoCA segment. In Antenna setups, the weakest signal is typically always going to be the Antenna signal. Because MoCA is generated locally, the signal is very strong in comparison. Cable modem signal would be inbetween those two.

In jwbelcher's diagram, there's no MoCA filters or any other type of filters needed because the signals never cross. (Are never on the same Coax segment).

The only scenario you want to use a distribution Amp is when you have to/two. That is you're trying to drive more than one TV tuner.

Regarding running a single port amp into a MoCA splitter, typically you'll never want to. The reason is the Antenna signal is the weakest and by sending it through a splitter (even if MoCA friendly) will degrade the Antenna signal but for no benefit. Those two things together are actually what goes into a MoCA friendly distribution amp. Saying this another way, the only time it's beneficial to add the MoCA friendly splitter, is when the Antenna signal is too strong, or at a miminum strong enough to get you all the channels you want. Then you have excess signal you're actually trying to degrade or can afford to lose.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> If you have MoCA rated splitters on hand but with too many ports, that's fine to use for the MoCA segment. In Antenna setups, the weakest signal is typically always going to be the Antenna signal. Because MoCA is generated locally, the signal is very strong in comparison. Cable modem signal would be inbetween those two.
> 
> In jwbelcher's diagram, there's no MoCA filters or any other type of filters needed because the signals never cross. (Are never on the same Coax segment).
> 
> ...


Have you looked at the all-in-one amp mfg materials provided by the OP, where it clearly shows that all their amps are simply a single output amp that goes into a splitter? They also show the ones for MoCA as being like that, but having a PoE filter between the single output of the internal amp, before it goes to the internal splitter.

It sounds like you are stating that the exact same thing, but all integrated together in one form, but all not-integrated together in the other, is OK in one form, but not OK in the other.

Please explain what is wrong about using a single-out amp, plus a splitter, versus the same thing, integrated together. I find the ability to change the splitter, to meet specific needs, or to be able to just replace the splitter, versus replacing the whole amp, appealing.

In some of the many links in this thread, I've seen amps with both passive returns, and ACTIVE, amplified, returns for the 5-42MHz band range. For OTA, no return is necessary, and would be best avoided. The last thing OTA should ever have, is an amplified return path, sending anything that might be in the 5-42MHz range, amplified, to the antennas and the equipment in-line to them, as well as the combiner.

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or you aren't fully thinking some things through on this. I was pushing to eliminate all-in-one amps, and move to single-output, and whatever splitters are needed on those outputs.

As far as a PoE filter goes, while not required, and some claim they are for cable only, if placed between the amp-out and splitter, it should work just like the integrated amps, which have one internally.

I'm not saying "I'm back in". I just had to ask about the logic of claiming an integrated amp/splitter is OK, but the same thing, not integrated-together is going to "degrade" the signal...


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

It might be clearer if I just rephrase what I wrote.



telemark said:


> Regarding running a single port amp into a MoCA splitter, typically you'll never want to.


This should instead say, run the minimal number of ports on the Distribution Amp or Distribution Splitter [to drive the tuners].

OP has a single 4 tuner Roamio to drive. Therefore, he doesn't need a splitter to get signal to 1 port. Just maybe a 1 port amp, since the 1 port splitter doesn't exist and wouldn't do anything if it did.

Regarding the POE filter, it sounds like you didn't look at the wiring diagram or forgot what's different about it.

Not disagreeing with anything you (nooneuknow) posted, but that's for a different wiring, where TV and MoCA signals are on the same wiring. The suggested wiring was a segmented/divided network, where TV and MoCA signals are never on the same wire segment. And the reason that was suggested was to maximize the TV signal since it's OTA and probably the weakest part.

Taking a step back and redescribing the optimization attempt, the MoCA splitter that comes after/builtin to the Distribution Amp is dominated by the number of MoCA devices/Tivo Mini's in the household. But those TivoMini's don't use the Antenna signal, they just want the MoCA signal. So the TV antenna signal was being split to things that aren't listening to it, which is what I meant by it being degraded unnecessarily.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> It might be clearer if I just rephrase what I wrote.
> 
> This should instead say, run the minimal number of ports on the Distribution Amp or Distribution Splitter [to drive the tuners].
> 
> ...


Ok. I wasn't really trying to "come at you" (but do a good job of making it seem that I am). I'm trying to make sure I understand your thoughts and processes going forward. There's only one way to make it so I can possibly help the next member with a similar configuration/distribution.

Just for clarity, can you elaborate on why some PoE filters are being marketed "for cable only", and what one could possibly harm, used in an amplified path (inserted between amp and first splitter)? I get why so many say they "aren't required, thus shouldn't be used". But, much of the equipment that is owned by the OP, regardless of what things are in use, I've seen a lot of references to devices clearly made for use with CATV, but are being used for OTA, or are just dual-purpose.

I had thought about suggesting the single port amp for the attic, no splitter in attic, then splitting in the basement, and distributing from there. Then, allegations that this is being handled in multiple forums came in, along with allegations that OP was refusing to try things, or just claiming they had been tried, to move forward. I reviewed what looked like some resistance to change the cabling topology, and insistence that the 4-port amp wasn't part of the problem, etc. The rest has already been said...

I get the impression that the wiring that exists, will remain the wiring that is used, and the OP is really (somewhat understandably) resistant to using the isolated segment methods others are successfully using. That leaves all this OTA stuff, mixed with CATV stuff, there was even some satellite stuff in use, plus adding MoCA... I want to know what there is to lose by using a PoE filter, other than insertion and return loss, on the OTA signal, which will have been amplified before it would have to pass through the pass-band.

I'm sitting in as a student, who knows the CATV part well, but not the OTA side, so much, especially in this situation.

*ETA: Yes, I missed this new diagram, here* http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=21640&d=1412172295


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> I get the impression that the wiring that exists, will remain the wiring that is used, and the OP is really (somewhat understandably) resistant to using the isolated segment methods others are successfully using.
> 
> *ETA: Yes, I missed this new diagram, here* http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=21640&d=1412172295


Any perceived resistance is and has been because of signal strength concerns. Although I have to admit it seems weird to consider options where each tv isn't actually receiving an OTA signal from the antennas.

My goal is that hopefully option 1 will work. If not, hopefully option #2 will be a possibility. What I am concerned about is being told neither is an option. Then I am not sure what to do. That's really why I asked about the single port amp, splitter combo. Well, that and when I had them here the last time looking into ethernet before they left they had mentioned something about using some kind of high frequency DirectTV splitter in front of the amps I already have in place.

Their first job tomorrow though is troubleshooting to find out if the 91XG or the Tinlee combiner is the culprit for why I am not picking up Fox. After we get the solved and possibly swapping out identical models of the same antenna they are going to move the combiner into the attic ahead of any distribution amps that may be used. If it is the combiner that is bad it'll be much easier for me to swap that out myself if it is in the attic.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> Any perceived resistance is and has been because of signal strength concerns.


Don't sweat it. I'm just letting those more familiar with (semi-complex) OTA+MoCA topology take-over.

Are you not able to drill holes, or is your residence made of materials hard to get through? It may only take one new run of cable to make everything work. But, as I've said before, as have others, sometimes rodents chew on cables, or the elements get to them. Some just degrade with age. Some might work fine with every band of frequencies you had, but are not up to handling the MoCA. Have you verified ALL your coax is RG6, and nothing is RG59 (thinner)? Have you verified you are using coax made for CATV, which tends to have better ratings and shielding than satellite coax, or than old antenna-grade coax?

If you say "I have a drill and am ready, willing, and able to use it, and don't mind pulling cables", I think the TiVo+MoCA part would be easy for me to advise on, leaving only the OTA intricacies to be addressed by the others.

But, I'd prefer to be a student on this (for a change), and I'll mostly be asking questions, if I don't fully understand any aspects of what telemark and jwbelcher come up with.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> Any perceived resistance is and has been because of signal strength concerns. Although I have to admit it seems weird to consider options where each tv isn't actually receiving an OTA signal from the antennas.


But the other TVs aren't receiving OTA signal from the antenna. They're receiving programming from your Roamio. The concept only seems weird because your used to using coax to deliver signal to each TV from the antenna. Here the coax is being to deliver IP over coax rather than Ethernet. The Minis are IP devices and cannot tune the OTA signal even if its on the line.

As far as signal concerns, we're attempting to improve your signal by removing splitters / distribution amps coming off the antennas. I think telemark, nooneuknow, and myself have advocated a single run from your antennas to achieve the best signal strength to your Roamio. If you need an amp, to boost signal, then a drop amp that has only a single IN and single OUT is preferred. Since the Minis can't receive OTA, splitting the signal to send it there could be weakening the signal going to your Roamio.

Its seems strange for the 91XG and/or Tinlee to go bad at the same time that you added MoCA - so that's suspect to me. However, I imagine if you get Fox back after the troubleshooting, you'll leave the setup as-is until you experience issues. I can understand that...


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I wish I could find an official reference for using MoCA with OTA, but everything I find is for Cable or Satellite.

I figure this scenario though is going to come up more and more often, with the OTA Roamio out now and the general Cord Cutters trend.

I've seen 3 rather different wiring methods.
1. Separate segments
2. Diplexers
3. Splitters

The right equipment for one may be different than another, which is why it gets confusing, and it appears there's conflicting advice at times.

But as jwbelcher said, #1 gives the cleanest Antenna signal which is why I suggested start there if at all possible. That and there's very little equipment compatibility issues to worry about.

nooneuknow's extensive experience and testing will become relevant if we get to #3, or repurposed for #2.

The diplexers I'm trying to avoid for now, but in theory can be used when MoCA and Antenna signals have to share a cable run. The insertion loss is less than a splitter but greater than nothing. (Between .8 and 2.5 depending on quality) The brand I would want to recommend are these, because they're the only ones I can find that were certified:
http://www.soontai.com/MoCA-dpx.htm
But I can't actually find someone who sells them. Most people installing diplexers would end up buying (accidentally) Satellite+OTA diplexers which might work fine or be problematic instead. There are so many types with varying characteristics. Which is another reason I want to stay away from that (#2) wiring until there's a reputable brand that's easy to find and it's truly needed.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> I wish I could find an official reference for using MoCA with OTA, but everything I find is for Cable or Satellite.
> 
> I figure this scenario though is going to come up more and more often, with the OTA Roamio out now and the general Cord Cutters trend.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree, with all this. I have a few things to add:

I find it interesting that while there is no shortage of OTA users using MoCA, that the information on doing so (from manufacturers of MoCA-related equipment), is so scarce. I think something that really needs to get addressed, is getting FACTS about what will/won't/might happen if MoCA is allowed to travel the direction of the antenna(s), and all the many reliability factors that may arise, if it's hitting antenna-specific equipment, like preamps, combiners, RF notch inserters (and related hardware for all these things). Even if the setup was a simple antenna (direct into MoCA-present actives/passives), is it correct to just let MoCA egress to it, or is all the advice and statements I've seen around TCF, stating "no PoE filter is needed for OTA, so don't get/install one", just assumptions, possibly creating the next great batch of (innocent) incorrect data/advice, that will create confusion, and cause fighting in perpetuity?

While I doubt the MoCA is going to get "broadcasted" far by an antenna, letting the MoCA get there is egress. Also, I would imaging that in a tightly-spaced residential neighborhood setting, a bunch of neighbors could interfere with each-other. Throw in a setting, where it's apartments, and there may be a "community" antenna, shared by many tenants, doesn't this beg a way to stop egress of MoCA from each apartment?

Seeing how some PoE filters are now being labelled as for Cable TV only, I wonder if we might start seeing more MoCA-related equipment labeled in the same way. Perhaps this plays a small part in why base-Roamios, plus the Roamio OTA, don't include internal MoCA. Maybe the FCC would not approve them, if they had it built in, and those who add MoCA via adapters are exploiting (my speculation) that the FCC dropped the ball on, not foreseeing the adapters being used in OTA settings.

Like I inquired, other than concerns about insertion & return loss, how could a PoE filter only work for CATV, or why would it only be labeled as such? Unless using one attenuates the pass-bands, which are suitable ranges for both CATV & OTA, what makes it use-specific? It's still based on 75-ohm impedance, and should have roughly the same loss as inserting anything at all. Even a grounding block has insertion and return loss. Even a coax surge protector likely has equal, likely greater, loss.

I speculate there will be an increase in added labels stating "for cable TV only" on MoCA products getting FCC approval after the "MoCA works with OTA, too" cat got out of the bag, and speculate the FCC is playing catch-up, after overlooking that people would use MoCA with OTA.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

nooneuknow said:


> Maybe the FCC would not approve them, if they had it built in, and those who add MoCA via adapters are exploiting (my speculation) that the FCC dropped the ball on, not foreseeing the adapters being used in OTA settings.


Now that you mention it, that might be a important observation. I don't see how the FCC could approve them (built in to OTA devices) if everyone's hooking it up to an antenna, then by default it may be causing interference of airwaves.

I've seen enough mixed signals (pun intended) from the MoCA Alliance and Entropic on this subject that I think it's fair to ask an official at this point.

Slightly entertaining training video from:
Entropic: 



Tivo: 




Edit:
The ChannelMaster Ethernet-Coax-Bridges clearly shows Antenna compatibility in it's example uses.
Specifications
Frequency Range
MoCA 1125MHz - 1525MHz (D Band)
TV Port 5MHz - 864MHz


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> Now that you mention it, that might be a important observation. I don't see how the FCC could approve them (built in to OTA devices) if everyone's hooking it up to an antenna, then by default it may be causing interference of airwaves.
> 
> I've seen enough mixed signals (pun intended) from the MoCA Alliance and Entropic on this subject that I think it's fair to ask an official at this point.
> 
> ...


Is the edit meant to say something I'm not seeing? Like, because the product exists, it must be FCC approved, nullifying the matter? Or, is this just meant as proof that at least one specific product exists for the void I observed?

We both don't see the FCC being OK with letting MoCA egress to an antenna. But, if this product has some form of filter, isolating the MoCA from egressing, then the FCC should be fine with it. If this is the case, the specifics of the filter used need to be discovered, and any differences it has from the ones recently adding "Cable TV only labels". The 864MHz "TV-port" is interesting, making me wonder what the isolation specs are (both in-band and above).

I wonder if the next shoe to drop, after existing products having "Cable TV only" stickers added, will be requiring a separate product line for OTA+MoCA devices, or alternatively, requiring including a filter for each application, and clear instructions that the one for the application needs to be installed.

I have my doubts that the Actiontec adapters most are using with OTA-capable TiVos were intended/approved for use without any filter, especially when the egress isn't contained to closed RF networks, but instead resulting in people using them with OTA and no filter...

I'm even more convinced now, than ever, that most OTA TiVo users, using the Actiontec adapters with OTA, without any filter, are using the products "off label", and the now universally-accepted gospel of "don't use a filter, it's not necessary", may be something the FCC would not agree with.

Please let us know what else you find. I'm actually playing "catch-up" with things I must do, or suffer consequences, completely outside my TCF life. But, some do overlap, and will help later on (mostly in other topic areas).


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Just updating. Wasn't sure if my tech was going to keep the appointment because of very stormy weather today. I brought back the same tech I had before who had told me that trying to establish moca purely through the ethernet approach was not going to work.

Discovered the 91XG antenna was still good as when we bypassed the Tinlee combiner we got a decent enough signal to get a picture. So, we now know the Tinlee combiner got damaged somehow. To me it is still kind of weird how that combiner being damaged could still pass signals from the other antenna. 

Also through that process we determined two drop/distribution amps provide the strongest signal to the Roamio. When he was here it was with the Channel Master 3414 and the Skywalker amp. For my own curiosity I tried Skywalker to Channel Master 3410 with a single output to the Roamio in the basement to see how the signal would be. I wanted to know because that combination would seem to satisfy one portion of jwbelcher option #1 (a single output to the Roamio). There is no distinguishable signal strength differences no matter which two amp combinations are used. To me, that seems to be a good thing as it seems to fit with the Roamio portion of jwbelcher option #1. 

We didn't get to the moca aspect because of the weather and time issues, but did discuss it a little. He noticed that there is another coax outlet also in the basement not far from the TV. It looks to be something Direct TV or Dish Network put in to get a feed to a tv in the room. On the outside of the house the coax looks like it goes around the back of the house to some sort of complicated satellite tv splitter with multiple ports. I think one of those ports runs into my attic and may be a coax unconnected to anything that is labeled "to outside feed". What I am wondering is do you guys think if I connected coax to the extra coax outlet, then to the Action Tec Moca adapter. Plus, then used a splitter like jwbelcher outlined in option #1 with "outside feed coax", Mini #1 and Mini #2 connected would that work to satisfy what he is suggesting.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

It definitely sounds possible. I'm sure the other two guys will weigh in if there's any concern on the type of cabling or connections used if it was satellite (not able to chime in there). However, I've found a wire trace like this one helpful to identify the right cable when up in the attic (and avoiding those undesirable return visits).

I'm curious, how was the signal with the Skywalker amp by itself? Was the second amp necessary to get a reliable signal?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Would you be able to post a photo of the "Satellite splitter" or can you reach it to just change it out with something else?



nooneuknow said:


> Or, is this just meant as proof that at least one specific product exists for the void I observed?


Ya, at least one company thinks it's Antenna friendly. It's rare enough that every example helps.

I looked through 3 companies manuals and spec sheets, countless industry install guides, and that's about the only reference I came across.



> I wonder if the next shoe to drop, after existing products having "Cable TV only" stickers added, will be requiring a separate product line for OTA+MoCA devices, or alternatively, requiring including a filter for each application, and clear instructions that the one for the application needs to be installed.


One of the FCC certification did say if you use outside the instructions, it's not authorized, but none of the instructions even mention what's beyond the wall jacks.

I don't see there being an OTA product line. Entropic targets 3 markets: Cable, Satellite, and Telco. 
Either OTA is allowed to be included in Cable or it's offlabel, but they don't seem to care about the market at all.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> Would you be able to post a photo of the "Satellite splitter" or can you reach it to just change it out with something else?


I can reach it to change it, but I am hesitant to change it out without having someone take a look because apparently I already made a $150 mistake on the Tinlee combiner.

Would it be better to upload a photo with an IPAD or a photo from a regular camera? I guess I am wondering about size requirements. Its still raining and dark so i will try to take one in the morning and upload it then.

I did take a look right now. It says Direc TV splitter MSPLIT4R1-01 2-2150 MHz

Also other writing that i noticed in it is it says WNC in the top left corner then SWS14-R3 under that. Toward the middle it says DC Powerpass. The splitter has 1 input and 4 outputs.

Assuming what I described satisfies the requirements of the 1st option, I am trying to think of what would be connected to the "out" of the Action Tech adapter?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

mulliganman said:


> Would it be better to upload a photo with an IPAD or a photo from a regular camera? I guess I am wondering about size requirements.
> 
> Assuming what I described satisfies the requirements of the 1st option, I am trying to think of what would be connected to the "out" of the Action Tech adapter?


Can't say. What I do is take 2 photos with each camera, once with flash, and once without. Then I post whatever is the clearest once I can see them on the computer.

Some Actiontec Ethernet adapters have 1 coax and some have 2 coax.

For the 2 coax, the extra port is meant for "TV" equipment in the same location. It's optional though, just for convenience. If you don't have a "TV" in that spot and a mixed MoCA+TV signal, it just goes unused.


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## jwbelcher (Nov 13, 2007)

mulliganman said:


> I can reach it to change it, but I am hesitant to change it out without having someone take a look because apparently I already made a $150 mistake on the Tinlee combiner.
> 
> Would it be better to upload a photo with an IPAD or a photo from a regular camera? I guess I am wondering about size requirements. Its still raining and dark so i will try to take one in the morning and upload it then.
> 
> ...


I would recommend you know what is exactly on that coax segment before reusing it for a standalone moca network. In my opinion, you'd want a single run from the basement to the attic, bypassing the satellite splitter, and putting a 2-way splitter in your attic for the minis. Like telemark said, your TV out on the moca adapter goes unused, there's no TV signal on the line coming out.

Edit - when by-passing, I mean using a coupler to bypass the dtv splitter to creatie a single line going to the attic.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

mulliganman said:


> I did take a look right now. It says Direc TV splitter MSPLIT4R1-01 2-2150 MHz
> 
> Also other writing that i noticed in it is it says WNC in the top left corner then SWS14-R3 under that. Toward the middle it says DC Powerpass. The splitter has 1 input and 4 outputs.


Don't need the photo then. That's plenty descriptive.
Looking up the model number it's the splitter part of a DirecTV switching system.

I would just borrow (disconnect) one line going between the basement to the attic from the DirecTV splitter, to connect it to a 2 or 3 port MoCA splitter and the 2 rooms you're putting the Mini's in.

I don't know which is better: 
A) to get a 2-way, Mini's on the Out and Actiontec on the IN. Or
B) a 3-way using just the OUT's and then put a reflecting POE filter on the IN.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> Don't need the photo then. That's plenty descriptive.
> Looking up the model number it's the splitter part of a DirecTV switching system.
> 
> I would just borrow (disconnect) one line going between the basement to the attic from the DirecTV splitter, to connect it to a 2 or 3 port Holland/MoCA splitter and the 2 rooms you're putting the Mini's in.
> ...


Agree on no-go for the DTV splitter - don't use

Don't forget, his Holland 2-ways are satellite splitters with DC pass-through, and all of those should be put out of reach, and not brought back in.

I vote for config "A"

If config "A" doesn't work, try config "B". But, "A" should be better.
But, no splitters used should have the DC-pass, so I think all that leaves is a 4 way that he has from PCT.

3-ways come in balanced and unbalanced, so how to use them depends on what you have on hand. Unbalanced has one OUT with -3.5dB less loss, than the other two OUTs. If using an OUT for bridge, use the -3.5dB port.

If no PoE filter is on-hand, just terminate all ports not used for connections.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Ya, sorry, mixed up the brands.

Someone picked out this brand before:
http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-splitter-output-enabling-5-1200MHz/dp/B004JKUMW8/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y

Now I have a question. Why does the splitter range say up to 1200 when Band D is 1125MHz - 1525MHz ? That's only enough coverage to get 1 channel of 8.

Edit: I remember now that's been answered before. So I guess the question would just be, if buying a splitter from scratch is a 1500 better than a 1200.

Like these:
http://www.hometech.com/hts/products/video/splitters/rf/hl-ghsprom.html?item=HL-GHS2PROM


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> Ya, sorry, mixed up the brands.
> 
> Someone picked out this brand before:
> http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-splitter-output-enabling-5-1200MHz/dp/B004JKUMW8/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y
> ...


Yeah, those 1200MHz MCR splitters have been vetted by me, and tested by others around TCF. That's the specification of splitter that exceeds what the equipment we are working with could ever need, period.

As you inserted (that you understand how MoCA jumps isolation, using the power of the signal), MoCA can push the 1125-1525 through even good quality 860MHz splitters. Some might find they get a small improvement by upgrading to 1GHz, but going to 1.2GHz is unlikely to add much more than what the act of replacing an old splitter with a new one of the same specs might yield. I've pretty much drawn the line in the sand at the 1.2GHz ones (I say anything more than 1200MHz rating isn't going to improve anything for our TiVo purposes).

*Those other ones* market like as if they are going to perform better, but MoCA hasn't even evolved enough to benefit. I guess I can't say a hard "no" to these, since the price is right. But, look at the added loss to the two way, an extra -0.4dB per port. That's really going to start adding up to major loss on the Cable TV frequencies, which is what that number represents. Most of the time, as a splitter boosts the top-end spec, the bottom-end starts suffering more loss.

An "8-way splitter" is four 2-ways, fed by 2-two-ways, fed by one 2-way.

Using these to try and boost MoCA beyond it's own limitations should yield no gain in MoCA, and might require adding an amp, to boost the CATV or OTA spectrum, if enough of these splitters are used in the distribution topology. Now, factor in that return channels for Cable Modems, Tuning Adapters, and such, all use the 5-42MHz band. You might now require an amplified return path as well.

These might be great for some future MoCA revision. But, when we are talking about TiVo Roamios w/MoCA & TiVo Minis, which aren't even at current MoCA spec, it's nothing but overkill, even for the current Actiontec adapters.

It's sad how MoCA started out as "made to work with what you have" (within reason), and now has every mfg of passives/actives perverting it, like you need to have MoCA-enabled splitters, and MoCA-enabled coax, and MoCA-enabled bumper stickers... They (not the actual MoCA people) have taken a good thing, and perverted it, to the point that nobody is going to buy a splitter that doesn't market itself as Moca-super-turbo-fantastic...


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

I've attached an image of the Direct TV splitter and what's connected to it.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

mulliganman said:


> I've attached an image of the Direct TV splitter and what's connected to it.


I can see the photo attachment of the Direct TV splitter doesn't show the writing and everything close up. If more detail is needed, let me know. I can take a new one but it will have to be this evening after I get home from work.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

It's good enough. There's plenty of pictures of it on Google from the model number.

I was going to say you disconnect one wire that goes from/to where you want, but that looks like it's on the outside of the house? So does the network go between the attic and basement in some fashion? Ideally with 1 wire, but 2 might Ok.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> It's good enough. There's plenty of pictures of it on Google from the model number.
> 
> I was going to say you disconnect one wire that goes from/to where you want, but that looks like it's on the outside of the house? So does the network go between the attic and basement in some fashion? Ideally with 1 wire, but 2 might Ok.


Yes it is on the outside of the house. From where the new coaxial port is in the basement it wraps around the back of the house to somewhere on that Direct TV splitter. An output from that splitter looks like it goes straight up into the attic (which I believe to be labeled "to outside feed" that is currently not connected to anything).


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

So you would just trace a wire from the basement and another one from the attic.

Then connect those two together with a Coupler. Sometimes called F or Coax Coupler.

fixed: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-uhFvvt...211-Double-Female-F-type-Coaxial-Coupler.html

You can either eye where the cables go or if it's not obvious, the technicians would have an electronic cable tracer / tester. I manage to get by without a tracer, but they're way faster.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

telemark said:


> So you would just trace a wire from the basement and another one from the attic.
> 
> Then connect those two together with a Coupler. Sometimes called F or Coax Coupler.
> 
> ...


That link doesn't work. I grabbed this one, pretty much randomly: http://www.amazon.com/10pcs-Frequency-Barrel-Connectors-Couplers/dp/B0037JB75S

It's made by PPC (known industry brand), and the 3GHz "rating", is insurance it will not cause issues with signal reflection, a condition that cheap, low-quality, couplers tend to introduce.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> Don't need the photo then. That's plenty descriptive.
> Looking up the model number it's the splitter part of a DirecTV switching system.
> 
> I would just borrow (disconnect) one line going between the basement to the attic from the DirecTV splitter, to connect it to a 2 or 3 port MoCA splitter and the 2 rooms you're putting the Mini's in.
> ...


Is it possible to get a modified drawing of what you are suggesting?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't have the software handy, but the diagram hasn't really changed from the last one jwbelcher made, here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=21640&d=1412172295
Just the Red cable in the diagram will be 1 or 2 of the prior satellite cable(s) instead of new run coax.

Here's the changes for the outside part, which becomes the Red cable.

```
Before:

        |
 _______|______
|              |
 --|--|--|--|--
   |     |
   /     \
Attic     Basement


After:
      Unknown (Don't care)
        |
 _______|______
|              |
 --|--|--|--|--
      |     |
      |     \ 
      \      Unknown   
       Unknown


    ____ Coupler ____
   |                 |
   /                 \
Attic              Basement
```


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Just to be clear, nobody is advocating using/re-use any of the D*/satellite splitters for anything, nor any of the ones with DC power pass-through, correct? Even that main DirecTV splitter has at least one DC-passing port, and really shouldn't be used for any role here, that I can see.

I've noticed the DC-passing/satellite splitters tend to keep creeping their way back into the picture in this thread. Like the ones referred to as "Holland", but the only "Holland" ones the OP gave pictures of are DC-passing satellite splitters.

I really do suggest finding a box, and placing every satellite splitter with DC-passing capability inside it, labelling it "Satellite w/DC passthrough ONLY", and putting it on a shelf somewhere, so there can be no risk of putting the nixed components back into play for this use.

Perhaps it would be a good time to take inventory of what is left to work with, once that is done, and see if anything is missing.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

nooneuknow said:


> Just to be clear, nobody is advocating using/re-use any of the D*/satellite splitters for anything, nor any of the ones with DC power pass-through, correct?


Correct.

The only satellite thing that might get re-used is the actual Coax.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> Just to be clear, nobody is advocating using/re-use any of the D*/satellite splitters for anything, nor any of the ones with DC power pass-through, correct? Even that main DirecTV splitter has at least one DC-passing port, and really shouldn't be used for any role here, that I can see. I've noticed the DC-passing/satellite splitters tend to keep creeping their way back into the picture in this thread. Like the ones referred to as "Holland", but the only "Holland" ones the OP gave pictures of are DC-passing satellite splitters. I really do suggest finding a box, and placing every satellite splitter with DC-passing capability inside it, labelling it "Satellite w/DC passthrough ONLY", and putting it on a shelf somewhere, so there can be no risk of putting the nixed components back into play for this use. Perhaps it would be a good time to take inventory of what is left to work with, once that is done, and see if anything is missing.


I just put a DC Blocker barrel on them and I'm golden!


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

nooneuknow said:


> Agree on no-go for the DTV splitter - don't use
> 
> Don't forget, his Holland 2-ways are satellite splitters with DC pass-through, and all of those should be put out of reach, and not brought back in.
> 
> ...


So would this (that I already have) be better for connecting the moca in the attic: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...d_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0B4Y4WR9MKGXB1R7HNB9

or this one: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...d_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=13MX4MY9KA2QDAPHFP68


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

HarperVision said:


> I just put a DC Blocker barrel on them and I'm golden!


I prefer not to add-in more connections, as each one adds insertion and return loss, and technically adds two more points of failure. DC-blocking adapters exist, but who knows how high frequency, high power MoCA signals are going to react to the added circuitry in the splitter, as well as the added circuitry in the blocking device. You can buy the right splitter for the job, often for the same price, or less, than buying add-ons to use the wrong one.

I'll take this opportunity to voice my disgust, for the millionth time, over how every passive component that isn't old stock, is getting "MoCA-enabling", "MoCA-enhancing", or MoCA-super-turbo-nitro-burning-supersonic-____, added to the label. MoCA just isn't at a level, even at latest revision draft levels, to require (or even benefit at all from) any of the alleged enabling/enhancing features.

The only thing that keeps me from going nuclear over it, is that if you shop-around, you don't have to pay more to get one with a label that says MoCA-whatever. At the same time, it likely is causing people who don't know better, to swap out splitters they have, to buy ones that say MoCA-whatever on the label.

I'm beginning to wonder if the actual players that make up what MoCA stands for, are getting kickbacks for allowing spiting of the good name that MoCA had, as a technology that worked with what you already had, in a typical coax-wired modern home.

Bit of a tangent there, but I hope you'll just let me have it.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> So would this (that I already have) be better for connecting the moca in the attic: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...d_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0B4Y4WR9MKGXB1R7HNB9
> 
> or this one: http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...d_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=13MX4MY9KA2QDAPHFP68


My advice, in a big-picture way of looking at things: Get yourself to the point where you have at least one of each, of basic splitters, starting with a couple two-ways, a balanced three-way, an unbalanced three way, and a four-way, plus make sure you have some some terminators on-hand, as well as a few short RG-6 patch cables, and those barrels for connecting cable ends together.

I'm backing telemark and jwbelcher on how you should connect it all together. You are the one who knows what you have, and what you don't. I tend to advise to have more than what you think you will need. If you feel that it's excessively costly, shop around for better deals, perhaps on some old-stock splitters, before all the suppliers jumped on selling splitters that were already "MoCA-enabling", but were not labeled as such. Even good-quality 860MHz splitters from 5 years ago tend to work just fine for most MoCA installs. Although, if buying splitters due to lack of having non-satellite equipment ones around, like your case, spending a dollar more for 1.2GHz ones, marketed as MoCA-whatever, might help future-proof things for you.

Your primary problem with the stuff you have around, is much of it was made for satellite TV use. If you had the same things, except decent CATV grade, or good OTA-grade, even if 5 years old, I'd say to try what you have, before shopping for other stuff. I have so many dozens of good splitters, in nearly every number and type of port, if you were my neighbor, I'd just fill you a box and restock the next time I see a Cox truck around.

I'm pretty busy now, and will be for a while. So, my input will be minimal, and sporadic, rather than extensive and quick. I'm very confident that using what's already contributed in this thread, the others will get you going. They can send me a PM if they get stuck on something, and want my input.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

jwbelcher said:


> It definitely sounds possible. I'm sure the other two guys will weigh in if there's any concern on the type of cabling or connections used if it was satellite (not able to chime in there). However, I've found a wire trace like this one helpful to identify the right cable when up in the attic (and avoiding those undesirable return visits).
> 
> I'm curious, how was the signal with the Skywalker amp by itself? Was the second amp necessary to get a reliable signal?


Somehow I missed this post. To answer your question, the signal with just the Skywalker amp by itself left most channels "yellow" on the Tivo signal strength meter. I thought about seeing what would happen with the RCA preamplifier in use but the installer thought I am pushing the limits on amplification already.

Thank you for the link to the wire tracer. Not to sound stupid, but how exactly does it work? I was trying to trace the wires physically the other day but had some trouble figuring out where they went. Would regular 75 ohm terminators work for that Direct TV splitter (if I disconnect a couple to make the moca connection we want)?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

On Splitters, you can use the 3way you linked but technically you're suppose to add a POE filter to that. Or just get a 2way.

You can get 2-ways almost anywhere locally.



> Thank you for the link to the wire tracer. Not to sound stupid, but how exactly does it work? I was trying to trace the wires physically the other day but had some trouble figuring out where they went.


A few youtube videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sperry+LAN+Tracker+Wire+Tracer



> Would regular 75 ohm terminators work for that Direct TV splitter (if I disconnect a couple to make the moca connection we want)?


If you don't have DirecTV in use, you can just leave it alone and forget about.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> On Splitters, you can use the 3way you linked but technically you're suppose to add a POE filter to that. Or just get a 2way.
> 
> You can get 2-ways almost anywhere locally.
> 
> ...


I'll watch that video. I am little unclear about the Moca splitter. I thought I had to have a 3 out Moca splitter based on the diagram option #1. I was about to order this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKSIY2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2E65I5CQT64X1

along with these terminators: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AAN76Y/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2GTW9AGN806R2

and these connectors: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037JB75S/ref=gno_cart_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A380AQVAFE6T5Y

If I do use the Moca splitter I already have where would the POE filter go? And would this one work: http://www.amazon.com/Filter-MoCA-C...TF8&qid=1412535429&sr=1-1&keywords=poe+filter

Thanks for clarifying about the Direct TV splitter. I am strictly OTA so Direct TV is not in use.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

If you have to order the 3-way, just get the 2-way instead:
http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-splitter-output-enabling-5-1200MHz/dp/B004JKUMW8/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y
You don't need a filter or terminators, in that case.

I'm unable to comment on the splitter you already have, because I'm not sure which one you already have.

You likely need 1 coupler. It's hard to say for sure until you trace the wires to the DirecTV splitter.
Almost every big local store carries couplers as well. Amazon is cheaper and gives you 10, but don't know how long that takes to ship.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

telemark said:


> If you have to order the 3-way, just get the 2-way instead:
> http://www.amazon.com/Broadband-splitter-output-enabling-5-1200MHz/dp/B004JKUMW8/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y
> You don't need a filter or terminators, in that case.
> 
> ...


This is what I already http://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Broa...d_sim_e_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=09YWY099GT6DC9SJ5R3J


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

You can try that 4 way splitter first if it's more convenient. It'll probably still work fine.


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

Can anyone confirm that these different listings for the couplers are the same: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Coaxial-...616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2341e0a890

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037JB75S/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A380AQVAFE6T5Y

I was leaning toward the ebay listing if they are the same because they may get here to me sooner.


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

ebay couplers look fine to me.


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## Neilwltr (Mar 8, 2011)

mulliganman said:


> Hello. I am hoping someone can help me. I am trying to make a moca connection to allow me to use my mini's off my base Roamio. Let me describe my setup:
> 
> My roof mounted antennas are coupled together using a special combiner and go to a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp in my attic that then splits that signal to 3 TV sets (2 of those are where I want to use the mini's; the Roamio is on the other TV). My cable internet coaxial line runs into the very rear of the basement (it is the only place the internet coax enters the home). My Roamio is also on a television in this same room. My router and modem are also in this room.
> 
> ...


BEST BET IS TO RUN CAT 5 FROM THE ROUTER TO EACH MINI - PLUG THE ROAMIO TO YOUR ROUTER TOO...DONE


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## mulliganman (Mar 29, 2014)

thanks to all who contributed. Got things setup and working.


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