# Series 3 lock-up problems



## jscozz

I have had my Series 3 since they came out... never a problem. Plain vanilla stock unit... no mods except adding an external eSATA a couple months ago. Just yesterday it started acting funny... slow operation. Rebooted once. Now when I power cycle it, it goes through the entire start-up... through "just a few more minutes"... does teh THX logo... then the Tivo animation... then comes to the orange screen... the menu takes about 20 more seconds to show up. Once it does, the remote and rfromt panel controls do not do anything. First item "Now playing" is highlighted but nothing I do has any effect... no remote or front panel buttons. It also appears that the background smoke animation is moving slow and jumpy.

Any suggetsions on what I can do to fix this?


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## drcos

Try the kickstart 57 to force a HDD check would be my attempted remedy. Your TiVo should reboot and give you the GSOD saying it is checking a serious drive error. Supposedly it will take between ten minutes and three hours, but the last time I did it, it was under ten minutes (and did not appear to solve my lockup problem, but that's another thread.

Just do a search for kickstart 57 (or 58), as opposed to Questions 67 and 68 (showing my age).


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## bizzy

I am seeing this exact same problem. To add some data, *the problem goes away as soon as I disconnect the cable TV line*. I have an OTA antenna also and the unit operates fine watching OTA ATSC. As soon as the cable TV gets connected, the unit gets slower and less responsive over 2 or 3 minutes until it freezes- and watchdog reboots several minutes later.

I've never even attached an ESATA drive to my S3, and this just started in the last day or two. What happened?

I'm a comcast customer in SF with two motorola cablecards. My S3 is running 8.3.1-01-2-648

UPDATE: I tried the 'kickstart 57', it had no effect, same crashes.


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## bizzy

Well, I just made the TiVo crash the exact same way with both tuners on OTA ATSC HD programming. I've been on hold for 30 minutes now waiting to talk to TiVo tech support. At this rate, they'll be going home for the day before I get to talk to someone. 

*UPDATE:* A combination of any two HD channels (cable/OTA) will wedge the unit. Pulling the coax to bring the unit down to a single stream will make the tivo un-freeze.


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## bizzy

I described the problem to TiVo support, and they agreed that it was probably a hardware problem. They're cross shipping me a replacement. Well, they accidentally tried to ship me a DT S2, but thats another story.. 

As a workaround, I popped out cablecard 2, and repeated guided setup as 1 cablecard, no OTA. The box seems to be behaving OK now.


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## Revolutionary

Had the same problem a couple months ago (also a couple of months after adding a eSATA drive). Mine eventually got magnificently f'ed up and Tivo promptly did a cost-free advance ship replacement even though I was way outside the 30-day "free replacement" window -- which suggests to me that it is a somewhat common problem.


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## jscozz

Well... I think jumping to the conclusion that it is a hardware problem is just an easy way for a Tivo support tech to get rid of the issue. I don't think it is any kind of hardware failure. I think it is clearly a software problem. And I am VERY disappointed that after spending over $600 plus subscription I am now hit with this kind of problem.

More details about my lock up:
1) The Tivo reboots itself frequently. Getting all the way to the Tivo menu with the background animating (choppy) and no menu appears.
2) An the occasion when it does reboot successfully, video has frequent sound drops outs and pixelation.

**** Removing 1 of the two cable cards does not change anything (either one). Removing BOTH cable cards completely fixes the problem! No more reboots. Perfect playback. External eSata still connected and running fine! Of course, I do not get certain channels now and no HD... but the Tivo works FINE!

So... anyone else have similar issues where just removing the cable cards (and leaving the cable connected) solved the problem?

If I call Tivo support will they have any info for me or will they want me to send it back and ship me a new one (losing TONS of shows on my external 750GB drive that my wife and I have not watched yet).


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## yunlin12

Why do you think it's a software issue? If all of the sudden Tivo stopped working, without any software change (I assume since you didn't mention any), does that sounds like a software problem? If you remove the cable cards, then the Tivo works fine, it sounds like a cable card related problem to me. Did your cable cards get new firmware?


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## jscozz

I have no way of knowing whether the Tivo or Cable cards got software updates... unless I logged all the info of what revision each was at before. I don;t think there are any accessible logs on the Tivo for these updates.

Does anyone know whether any minor updates of Tivo software or Comcast motorola cable card firmware updates have been issues recently?

In addition, depending on the bug, it may or may not be related to an update... it could have manifested based on some other condition.


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## richsadams

jscozz said:


> I have no way of knowing whether the Tivo or Cable cards got software updates... unless I logged all the info of what revision each was at before. I don;t think there are any accessible logs on the Tivo for these updates.
> 
> Does anyone know whether any minor updates of Tivo software or Comcast motorola cable card firmware updates have been issues recently?
> 
> In addition, depending on the bug, it may or may not be related to an update... it could have manifested based on some other condition.


I'd contact Comcast and have them re-hit your cards and/or replace them...sounds like they are the root of all evil for you.


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## jscozz

I have spent the last week removing stiff to make sure it is unrelated to the problems I am seeing. USB NIC, then expansion eSATA drive... down to old bare bones TIVO S3... and I still get pixelation, then lockup then reboot a few times a day. Seems to only occur on HD channels. Switch to SD channel and all is fine.

TIVO thinks it is HW problem... and will swap it out for refurb unit... I think something is hosed up in software or data on disk. But I don't see an overwhelming number of people on here with the same issue... so I have to hope that it is not cable card or Comcast related and go for the Tivo swap out.

No one knows of any Comcast change about a month ago that may be causing this, right? It just seems that when viewing a HD channel, the Tivo is eating up a lot of cpu cycles on something... eveyrthing gets sluggis after about 20-30 minutes... then menus start sticking on screen... remote commands may take 20-30 seconds to execute... etc. Then locks hard, then reboots.

Any last advice before I do the swap out?

Jeff


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## richsadams

jscozz said:


> I have spent the last week removing stiff to make sure it is unrelated to the problems I am seeing. USB NIC, then expansion eSATA drive... down to old bare bones TIVO S3... and I still get pixelation, then lockup then reboot a few times a day. Seems to only occur on HD channels. Switch to SD channel and all is fine.
> 
> TIVO thinks it is HW problem... and will swap it out for refurb unit... I think something is hosed up in software or data on disk. But I don't see an overwhelming number of people on here with the same issue... so I have to hope that it is not cable card or Comcast related and go for the Tivo swap out.
> 
> No one knows of any Comcast change about a month ago that may be causing this, right? It just seems that when viewing a HD channel, the Tivo is eating up a lot of cpu cycles on something... eveyrthing gets sluggis after about 20-30 minutes... then menus start sticking on screen... remote commands may take 20-30 seconds to execute... etc. Then locks hard, then reboots.
> 
> Any last advice before I do the swap out?
> 
> Jeff


I'm on TiVo's side this time...sounds like a hardware issue if it's only happening on HD programming. Remember hardware includes the HDD. There is a huge difference in processing HD Vs SD data...so yes, it does impact the CPU and everything else in a box that's working normally...and can be fatal if theres a flaw.

Comcast doesn't usually do things nation-wide, at least at the same moment. So I have no idea what they may be doing in your area (wherever that might be) but if something were up we'd probably see a lot more activity here.

Hope all goes well. :up:


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## murrays

Bumping this thread since my S3 is showing the same symptoms as listed above.

I think I'll be on the line with customer support soon 

-murray


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## JRJr

I'm not on the forum often, but I see I'm not the first person to experience this lockup problem. Last night, watched a recorded program, deleted it while something else was recording. I'd already noticed that the NOW PLAYING screen was uncharacteristically slow in displaying my recorded shows.

When I came back to watch something else a while later, no response either via remote nor on the unit itself.

I don't have cable, just an OTA antenna, and digital stations only. I've had this S3 since last November more or less, without any issues. I'd considered adding an eSata drive, but at this point don't have any need for that. My unit is as it came out of the box.

I've tried rebooting about 5 times (I'm an optimist), and I get to an empty screen with an image of lightbulbs and nothing else, as described by others here.

I haven't tried removing the coax antenna cable before rebooting. Does anyone have any suggestions before I spend what appears to be a long time waiting for tech support? Thanks.


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## richsadams

JRJr said:


> I'm not on the forum often, but I see I'm not the first person to experience this lockup problem. Last night, watched a recorded program, deleted it while something else was recording. I'd already noticed that the NOW PLAYING screen was uncharacteristically slow in displaying my recorded shows.
> 
> When I came back to watch something else a while later, no response either via remote nor on the unit itself.
> 
> I don't have cable, just an OTA antenna, and digital stations only. I've had this S3 since last November more or less, without any issues. I'd considered adding an eSata drive, but at this point don't have any need for that. My unit is as it came out of the box.
> 
> I've tried rebooting about 5 times (I'm an optimist), and I get to an empty screen with an image of lightbulbs and nothing else, as described by others here.
> 
> I haven't tried removing the coax antenna cable before rebooting. Does anyone have any suggestions before I spend what appears to be a long time waiting for tech support? Thanks.


That doesn't sound good...and really frustrating.  Points to a HDD problem.

You could give the old standby "Kickstart 57" a try. That will cause TiVo to run its built-in diagnostic program. It's worked for some. You could disconnect your antenna before trying it, but I'm not sure that would make any difference either way.

*Kickstart 57:*

1. Unplug TiVo and wait 15 seconds.
2. Plug TiVo in, get the TiVo remote and aim it at TiVo.
3. Press and hold the pause button until the orange light comes back on by itself.
4. Release the pause button and immediately type in the numbers 5 and 7 on the remote (you have about 10 seconds to do this step).
5. TiVo will reboot and the GSOD screen will come on saying TiVo has encountered a serious error. It will then run the disk management tool which can take from 10 minutes to 3 hours to complete. During this time it will look for and correct configuration problems as well as isolating any bad sectors on the hard drive so they can no longer be used.
6. TiVo will automatically reboot again and hopefully things will return to normal. (Programs that used any bad sectors may be lost.)

If that doesnt work you may want to contact TiVo and see what they suggest. You might want to get an exchange unit or look into replacing your hard drive (very easy to do).

Best of luck!


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## jtreid

I, too, had similar problems several months ago. I have an ESATA FAP750GB. I attributed the freeze/reboots to some power drops/brown-outs that occurred over about a week. Terrible storms. I saw the exact problems you all are seeing. I finally went and bought me a UPS. Over the next weeks or so, whenever I saw tivo slow down in respose time or get sluggish in the menus, I would force a restart. This happened maybe three times. Since then, I've not seen any of these symptoms. Tivo may appear sluggish at times accessing the Tivo Home menu, but once it's there, the response time is normal. I think that's true of tivo in general. 

I've got to imagine that even as robust as linux is, that writing to a HDD during a power drop can create corruption. I figured that tivo must have finally rewritten that portion of the disk or hasn't hit it again.


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## murrays

Ran the "Kickstart 57"...no joy 

I confirmed that the problem goes away when I unplugged the cable and then reappeared after I tuned to a antenna HD channel. I also pulled the cable cards and again no issue unless I tune to an HD channel.

It's pretty obvious to me it's not the CC's.

-murray


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## richsadams

murrays said:


> Ran the "Kickstart 57"...no joy
> 
> I confirmed that the problem goes away when I unplugged the cable and then reappeared after I tuned to a antenna HD channel. I also pulled the cable cards and again no issue unless I tune to an HD channel.
> 
> It's pretty obvious to me it's not the CC's.
> 
> -murray


Bummer! 

I'm almost certain that I read something similar in another thread...about there being a problem when the cable is connected, and not otherwise, etc. but I'll be darned if I can find it. If memory serves the OP had to have the cable company come out and it had something to do with the signal strength being _too _ strong...but that they were able to resolve it.

Keep us posted!


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## musictoo

At least I have my sanity back after reading this thread. My S3 is about 10 months old, standard pixelation issues but no serious issues. Added an M1 + DB35 750gig a month ago and within 2 weeks I had lost every channel on both tuners. Had to pull and reinstall both cards and go through guided setup to get them back. This has happened about every 10-12 days since then. The last time it happened I called support and they wanted me to get new cable cards. I have a 3rd SA card in my Sony TV that has no issues whatsoever. By accident I was digging through the CC part of the setup menu and flipped through the ID page and the other pages and when I got out, the channels came back without having to pull the cards. And to top all that off I've had my first lockups and spontaneous reboots this weekend. Too much of a coincidence with the eSata install for me... FWIW, it's been plugged into a UPS since day one.


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## Revolutionary

More and more of these stories are coalescing, and the common threads seem to be Series 3 + ESATA drive. Maybe there is a reason that this feature isn't supported yet? My first S3 got seriously cooked, and exhibited all of the same symptoms (pixelation/playback pauses, stalls, random reboots, freezes on the Home and Now Playing screens, loss of channel lists (and I don't have cablecards)).

Can I be sure? No. But I also haven't plugged my ESATA drive up to my warranty replacement box, either, and I won't until Tivo activates the feature and sells a warrantied drive.


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## murrays

Revolutionary said:


> More and more of these stories are coalescing, and the common threads seem to be Series 3 + ESATA drive. Maybe there is a reason that this feature isn't supported yet? My first S3 got seriously cooked, and exhibited all of the same symptoms (pixelation/playback pauses, stalls, random reboots, freezes on the Home and Now Playing screens, loss of channel lists (and I don't have cablecards)).
> 
> Can I be sure? No. But I also haven't plugged my ESATA drive up to my warranty replacement box, either, and I won't until Tivo activates the feature and sells a warrantied drive.


No external drive on my S3 so perhaps I'm an outlier 

-murray


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## drcos

I had some random lockups, once on live TV, but several times with recorded HD content (typically HBO-HD). This was with a Maxtor 500GB inside (copied the original drive a few days after I got it).
Replaced the Maxtor with a WD, and seems better, although Sunday (9/2) at 5:00 I noticed my TiVo clock said 1:15...turned on the TV and the screen was froze, pressed LiveTV and the TiVo restarted (and has been OK since).
Not only does the WD drive seem to perform better, it's quieter (thanks to Acoustic Management).


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## richsadams

Revolutionary said:


> More and more of these stories are coalescing, and the common threads seem to be Series 3 + ESATA drive. Maybe there is a reason that this feature isn't supported yet? My first S3 got seriously cooked, and exhibited all of the same symptoms (pixelation/playback pauses, stalls, random reboots, freezes on the Home and Now Playing screens, loss of channel lists (and I don't have cablecards)).
> 
> Can I be sure? No. But I also haven't plugged my ESATA drive up to my warranty replacement box, either, and I won't until Tivo activates the feature and sells a warrantied drive.


Although eSATA drives are an easy target we need to take into consideration that a majority of the symptoms listed on this thread have been reported long before the eSATA hack was found about four months ago. That doesn't mean that an external drive couldn't have exacerbated a problem, but S3's (as well as THD's more recently) have exhibited these kinds of errors all along. And as others have posted on this and other threads, by folks that have never had an eSATA drive connected...so I'd be careful about confusing the two.

There's more in-depth discussion about eSATA drives and what to look out for on the Series3 eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion thread. Even among the problems posted there many have found that their difficulties ended up having nothing to do with the eSATA drive, but with their TiVo box itself (software updates, cables, HDMI, HDD failure etc.) The eSATA drive install happened coincidental to other issues appearing as they will and have been with TiVo's in normal use.

In fact the OP states:



> Removing BOTH cable cards completely fixes the problem! No more reboots. Perfect playback. External eSata still connected and running fine!


 That would indicate something clearly other than an eSATA drive problem.

The eSATA expansion has given some people grief, but the various polls suggest that theyve been working for the majority. Its certainly one thing to eliminate during a proper diagnosis, but again the symptoms posted by the OP and subsequently have been around for a while.


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## hunts

I would also like to add that one of my S3 boxes are turned sluggish. My main S3 box with the MX-1 + DB35 HD is running like a champ with 2 cablecards. My second S3 box with NO cable cards + No eSATA has slowed down. The only difference that I can see is the internal temp range for the second box is usually 48 degC which the box reports as normal. Does my 2nd box have a hardware issue that needs to be swapped out?


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## vsbdtv

I've experienced this problem twice now. Tivo did a swapout on my original S3 and the problem disappeared with the new machine. No problems for about five months, and then a couple of days ago - same problem. (kept the original Moto CCs)

My S3 doesn't have eSata - just the stock internal drive. And I've tried all combinations of cable cards to no avail. I had Comcast "hit" the cards - also to no effect. 

Tivo thinks I should get Comcast to replace the cable cards. Comcast is saying the cards are working fine. 

The symptoms are similar to those reported by others here. Within seconds of connecting the cable, the box becomes very slow and eventually non-responsive to commands. Making lots of commands with the remote will eventually cause the box to reboot. Unplug the cable input, and everything returns to normal within a dozen seconds. 

My latest attempt at solving this thing was to remove CC 2 and re-run guided setup. It's working perfectly in that mode now. If that holds for a day or two, then I'll try to re-add CC 2 and run setup again. 

It's been a while since I originally hit this problem. But my vague recollection is that the problem followed a lineup change @ comcast. There have been a couple of minor lineup changes preceeding the latest incident. 

When I first hit this problem, it seemed like a h/w issue - probably a bad disk drive. But I checked the first drive, and it didn't seem to have any errors on it. Now, I'm thinking s/w issue. It seems something is eating too much CPU on the Tivo. And because the problem occurs in the cable card "test channels" modes and in other circumstances where there shouldn't be live recording going on, I reluctant to believe it's a disk issue. Sans the cable connection, it's possible to replay previously recorded programs with no issue.


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## richsadams

hunts said:


> I would also like to add that one of my S3 boxes are turned sluggish. My main S3 box with the MX-1 + DB35 HD is running like a champ with 2 cablecards. My second S3 box with NO cable cards + No eSATA has slowed down. The only difference that I can see is the internal temp range for the second box is usually 48 degC which the box reports as normal. Does my 2nd box have a hardware issue that needs to be swapped out?


The internal temp of 48c is well within the normal range. Curious...are you using HDMI or component connections? If HDMI you might want to try component to see if it makes any difference.

You probably have tried a hard reboot, but if not, try unplugging TiVo for 15 seconds or so and plugging it back in. Might be worth running Guided Setup again as well.

On a whim you might also try reducing the number of SP's (season passes) and WL's (wish lists) as well as removing everything from the Recently Deleted folder (it's a pain but may make a difference). Heavy HD programming, SP's, WL's and left-over RD's have been listed as a cause for TiVo getting pretty sluggish. I've read reports where 100+ listings in any of these categories can cause some response times to slow. A reboot after cleaning things up may help.

Let us know how it goes.


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## richsadams

vsbdtv said:


> I've experienced this problem twice now. Tivo did a swapout on my original S3 and the problem disappeared with the new machine. No problems for about five months, and then a couple of days ago - same problem. (kept the original Moto CCs)
> 
> My S3 doesn't have eSata - just the stock internal drive. And I've tried all combinations of cable cards to no avail. I had Comcast "hit" the cards - also to no effect.
> 
> Tivo thinks I should get Comcast to replace the cable cards. Comcast is saying the cards are working fine.
> 
> The symptoms are similar to those reported by others here. Within seconds of connecting the cable, the box becomes very slow and eventually non-responsive to commands. Making lots of commands with the remote will eventually cause the box to reboot. Unplug the cable input, and everything returns to normal within a dozen seconds.
> 
> My latest attempt at solving this thing was to remove CC 2 and re-run guided setup. It's working perfectly in that mode now. If that holds for a day or two, then I'll try to re-add CC 2 and run setup again.
> 
> It's been a while since I originally hit this problem. But my vague recollection is that the problem followed a lineup change @ comcast. There have been a couple of minor lineup changes preceeding the latest incident.
> 
> When I first hit this problem, it seemed like a h/w issue - probably a bad disk drive. But I checked the first drive, and it didn't seem to have any errors on it. Now, I'm thinking s/w issue. It seems something is eating too much CPU on the Tivo. And because the problem occurs in the cable card "test channels" modes and in other circumstances where there shouldn't be live recording going on, I reluctant to believe it's a disk issue. Sans the cable connection, it's possible to replay previously recorded programs with no issue.


That really smells like a cable card/signal problem, particularly if it goes away when one of the cable cards or the connection to your cable service is removed. One or both cards may need to be re-hit or replaced.

We've gone around and around with Comcast on signal issues. The last time it took four truck rolls before they sent someone out that knew what he was doing. He had everything sorted in less than 20 minutes. Keep the pressure on.

FYI, TiVo is actually _always _ recording...buffering two channels at all times.


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## JRJr

Well, I tried the Kickstart 57 last night (thanks Rich for your post on how to do this) but unfortunately it didn't work. After about the 4th time, it never even made it past the THX announcement, as it sputtered along.

I then called TIVO, got through to an agent immediately (!) and am now awaiting my swapout. They're also paying for shipping both directions. The tech guy said he's seeing about 3 or 4 of these every couple of months. I was impressed by how cooperative he was, and that I didn't get any sort of run-around at all.

As I decided against and eSata expansion drive a while back, and since I don't have cable at all, there must be something else, or perhaps in addition to, that is causing this problem.

Obviously TIVO is well aware of it, with their efficient swap mechanism in place. Let's hope the next one lasts longer than 10 months.


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## richsadams

JRJr said:


> Well, I tried the Kickstart 57 last night (thanks Rich for your post on how to do this) but unfortunately it didn't work. After about the 4th time, it never even made it past the THX announcement, as it sputtered along.
> 
> I then called TIVO, got through to an agent immediately (!) and am now awaiting my swapout. They're also paying for shipping both directions. The tech guy said he's seeing about 3 or 4 of these every couple of months. I was impressed by how cooperative he was, and that I didn't get any sort of run-around at all.
> 
> As I decided against and eSata expansion drive a while back, and since I don't have cable at all, there must be something else, or perhaps in addition to, that is causing this problem.
> 
> Obviously TIVO is well aware of it, with their efficient swap mechanism in place. Let's hope the next one lasts longer than 10 months.


Yep, sounds like the HDD was on its last legs. That happens. So it's good news for the most part. Being without TiVo for a few days and losing your programs is no fun.  That TiVos covering shipping and swapping it out long after the warranty period has expired is great! :up:

I've read a few posts about some bad experiences with TiVo CSR's, and I've only talked to them a couple of times, but each time has been very pleasant. I think it has a lot to do with your attitude going in.

You'll have TiVo back up and running in no time now.


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## hunts

richsadams said:


> The internal temp of 48c is well within the normal range. Curious...are you using HDMI or component connections? If HDMI you might want to try component to see if it makes any difference.
> 
> You probably have tried a hard reboot, but if not, try unplugging TiVo for 15 seconds or so and plugging it back in. Might be worth running Guided Setup again as well.
> 
> On a whim you might also try reducing the number of SP's (season passes) and WL's (wish lists) as well as removing everything from the Recently Deleted folder (it's a pain but may make a difference). Heavy HD programming, SP's, WL's and left-over RD's have been listed as a cause for TiVo getting pretty sluggish. I've read reports where 100+ listings in any of these categories can cause some response times to slow. A reboot after cleaning things up may help.
> 
> Let us know how it goes.


I havn't had much time to mess around with the 2nd box, but it is hooked up using composite out. I do not have many season passes or WL setup. I did permanetly remove some shows from the deleted folder. I will try to do a cold reboot versus the restart DVR feature on the device.


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## peterxy

I have a stock series 3 with no modifications, new 11/06, started having all the symptoms mentioned above in this thread about a week ago and I don't have any HD programming recorded on the unit. It freezes, reboots randomly, stutters on playback and live TV, grey screens on certain channels, now playing list takes 2 minutes to populate etc. Called Tivo, went from CSR to tech support and was told it was a "rare" type of incident for them to hear about. I was told it was a software issue and they asked me to accept 90 free service while I await an update that may or may not come in that timeframe!!! THey claim they have zero knowledge of when updates go out. If things got worse they might do a swap but they would prefer to avoid it (so would I considering the 200 programs I have saved to the unit) They also *****ed about the non-Tivo USB network adapter I have installed (removed it and reset many times to no avail). I have to say as this is the third Tivo I have purchased, I was generally please with the two series 2s I own. But this is ridiculous. If they know it is an issue why fart around with the 90 day service credit and not go straight to a swap? I don't want to wait 3 months for a fix that may not come.


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## vsbdtv

After having Comcast come out to check my cable signal, I'm not quite what to make of my problem. Comcast says the signal is fine. Additionally, I've plugged the cable outlet directly into my XBR3 set (which has a built-in QAM tuner w/o tuner card), and all channels lock in w/ zero errors. The S/N on every channel was about 35db, and the AGC ranged from about 30% - 35% depending on the channel. 

I've alternatively tested w/o each of the cablecards in the system, and the failure still occurs. However, I've found that if I leave the tuners tuned either to an unreachable antenna channel or to one of the SD cable channels, there is no problem. My issue only starts when one or more tuners is tuned to an HD channel, which here ranges from 755 to 899. Of course, those are just the logical channels. The physical channels are somewhat spread out. 

The problem occurs whether in live TV mode or when using the channel -> signal strength modes. (which I understood from the menus would temporarily disable live recording). Tivo reports a signal strength of around 95-97.


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## murrays

Update on my situation:

To rule out the cable cards, I disconnected the cable/cards and reran the guided setup with antenna only. Same issue, tuning to an HD feed causes the S3 to slow down, pixelate and become unresponsive to the remote. 

I called TiVo and they were polite and helpful. In the end, they suggested I send the unit back to them and they would send me another unit for a $50 labor charge. 

I then called Repair Master where I had purchased an extended warranty. They said the TiVo was covered under the manufacturer's warranty for 12 months. I went back and forth with them pointing out that TiVo's website, my manual and even my original Repair Master contract indicated 3 months labor, 1 year parts for the manufacturer's warranty. I have to wait until the end of the week to get a response from them  

Has anyone else dealt with Repair Master extended warranties? I'm somewhat concerned that I wasted my money with them or they will insist that I return the unit to them for repair.

-murray


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## brouwer

I know that everyone wants to point to signal strength, cable cards, and hard drives, but I am having the same problems with the unit (only started two weeks ago - put into service 03/07). I have run the unit without cable cards (no problems). I replaced the cable cards - which is harder than Chinese arithmetic with the "helpful" cable company CSRs (same problem). Signal is not a problem. Why would the basic functionality of the unit slow down or reboot when there is a low signal unless there is some flawed programming within the Tivo software?

I have come to the conclusion that this is definitely a software resourcing issue. My box slows down, the spotlights in the back move in a staggered fashion or freeze. The box becomes unresponsive and requires a reboot. I believe that the indexing function is taking up too much memory resources on the box and that a memory leak in one of the modules may be at the root of the problem. Just wiped the box and did a fresh install today - maybe this would help. 

What would be helpful is a simple linux resource utilization screen in the diagnostic menu to show the health of the box. Nothing fancy, just something we can understand rather than looking to GUI voodoo and functionality freezes to see if there is a problem.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Tivo either give us users a way to revert to 8.1 or come out with a software update soon. Fall TV season is just starting.

Update: Apparently it appears that the slowdown is whenever one of my tuners is on an HD channel. Been operating the unit on one cable card for the past two days and the only time I get lockups and reboots is when I am on an HD signal. Doesn't make a difference if I am watching it live or if I am watching recorded content and the tuner switches channels. Box reads 97+ signal and my Comcast DVR (a backup unit because my series 3 hasn't exactly been reliable) performs just fine. 

What baffles me is that the whole series3 functionality is tied to cable cards and signal. You would think that the GUI, storage functions, etc. etc. would function independently. I can handle dropouts in recorded content, but to have the box slow down and just stop functioning based on a good or bad signal is unacceptable. Shoddy programming. Give me the facility to choose my code revision. I feel like I'm a commercial product guinea pig at this point.


----------



## bown

Glad to know that the recent lockups aren't just me.

My S3 has been working fine since Nov of last year. I upgraded with the popular FAP750 esata drive months ago with no problems.

Within the last 2 or 3 weeks I have seen several reboots. Normally I just go to use the tivo and notice that the 30 sec skip needs to be reset.

One time however I actually caught it in the process of dying. The GUI was SLOOOWWWW. One channel that was being recorded at the time had a frozen picture. Tuning to other channels was extremely slow, if it worked at all. Just after the show stopped recording at the correct time, the tivo rebooted. It came back with the GSOD, but only took about 10 minutes to reboot again and all was well.

Doing some quick searches here on the GSOD, I figured that I had gotten to a part of the esata drive that perhaps had corrupted sectors or something like that, since hard drive problems seem to be the most likely cause of the green screens.

Whatever the cause, hopefully the next software update will fix this issue.


----------



## brouwer

Tivo Customer Service gets no communications from the engineering department. I have been experiencing engineering level issues for the past few weeks. I even had tech support "Ruben" tell me today that I have exhausted all diagnostics with my system. I am now down to the $50 for a replacement unit or wait for a software upgrade question. Someone should make the call over there to revert back to an older software version and do a push. They need to fix QA and their engineering/tech support communications. How bout a little email support while you're at it. No escalation path is not a good thing. No wonder Comcast is tippy-toeing around a Tivo rollout systemwide.


----------



## richsadams

brouwer said:


> Tivo Customer Service gets no communications from the engineering department. I have been experiencing engineering level issues for the past few weeks. I even had tech support "Ruben" tell me today that I have exhausted all diagnostics with my system. I am now down to the $50 for a replacement unit or wait for a software upgrade question. Someone should make the call over there to revert back to an older software version and do a push. They need to fix QA and their engineering/tech support communications. How bout a little email support while you're at it. No escalation path is not a good thing. No wonder Comcast is tippy-toeing around a Tivo rollout systemwide.


  That's a frustrating position to be in. However I'm not sure the cause and effect has been established on an S3-wide basis. There are a number of complaints on this thread, but obviously most units are working with the current firmware. Additionally there are a number of "historic" threads from people that incurred similar problems when v8.1 was released that were actually "cured" in the v8.3x release.

That certainly doesn't help your situation but I wouldnt expect TiVo to roll thousands of S3's back to a previous FW release...which AFAIK would be a first. Let's hope they make the delivery of the next version a priority...and that it fixes what's ailing your system.


----------



## peterxy

If vendors begin receiving these Series 3 units back maybe Tivo will begin to feel the heat and get busy with a fix. Anyone who purchased their Series 3 at Costco online can return no charge at any local Costco store or they will pay return shipping if necessary. And shipping on a replacement unit is only $16-17. With a $200 rebate the unit winds up costing only $399 for a 300 hr unit and it will be a NEW unit not refurbished.


----------



## richsadams

peterxy said:


> If vendors begin receiving these Series 3 units back maybe Tivo will begin to feel the heat and get busy with a fix. Anyone who purchased their Series 3 at Costco online can return no charge at any local Costco store or they will pay return shipping if necessary. And shipping on a replacement unit is only $16-17. With a $200 rebate the unit winds up costing only $399 for a 300 hr unit and it will be a NEW unit not refurbished.


The $200 rebate only applies to new, not existing accounts. (Of course you can add _another _ TiVo S3 to an existing account and get the rebate.)

The fall software update (v9.1x) is already being tested and that may (or may not) take care of the issues some S3 owners are seeing. Lets hope so.


----------



## fenster

> I know that everyone wants to point to signal strength, cable cards, and hard drives, but I am having the same problems with the unit (only started two weeks ago - put into service 03/07). I have run the unit without cable cards (no problems). I replaced the cable cards - which is harder than Chinese arithmetic with the "helpful" cable company CSRs (same problem). Signal is not a problem. Why would the basic functionality of the unit slow down or reboot when there is a low signal unless there is some flawed programming within the Tivo software?
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that this is definitely a software resourcing issue. My box slows down, the spotlights in the back move in a staggered fashion or freeze. The box becomes unresponsive and requires a reboot. I believe that the indexing function is taking up too much memory resources on the box and that a memory leak in one of the modules may be at the root of the problem. Just wiped the box and did a fresh install today - maybe this would help.


Its funny how more posts have come in over the past 60 days... what changed? Not my hardware... I have Cox as cable (not Comcast) and no eSATA or mods. My stock S3 has been great with 2 cable cards since January. Then about 3 weeks ago it has become unusable (takes minutes to get through menu items, picture locks up, etc - same stuff reported here)... This leads me to support the software issue side of the house. Now using these threads as information I will go home and see if I can get it working again


----------



## richsadams

fenster said:


> Its funny how more posts have come in over the past 60 days... what changed? Not my hardware... I have Cox as cable (not Comcast) and no eSATA or mods. My stock S3 has been great with 2 cable cards since January. Then about 3 weeks ago it has become unusable (takes minutes to get through menu items, picture locks up, etc - same stuff reported here)... This leads me to support the software issue side of the house. Now using these threads as information I will go home and see if I can get it working again


Sorry to hear of the problems. Hopefully they'll get resolved. Since there have been no software changes over the past 60 days and you've only seen these symptoms in the last three weeks I'd be more inclined to say you're experiencing a local, probably hardware problem.

Your specific symptoms have been around for as long as TiVo's have been around and everything you've mentioned points to HDD trouble. It's possible that there are signal or CC glitches, but what you've described; "_takes minutes to get through menu items, picture locks up, etc_" are classic indicators of a hard drive with bad sectors, bad read/write heads or both.

Just to eliminate a hard drive problem you may want to try running TiVos diagnostic program, Kickstart 57 to see if that might clear things up. It may or may not but I wouldnt expect any software upgrade to cure the things that youve described.

Anyway, hope things work out and keep us posted! :up:


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## candacemitchell

I am just another victim of the TiVo Series 3 freeze up. Here is my rundown:

I began having uses several weeks ago with my Series 3 tiVo rebooting several times and freezing up as well. I thought it was the cable cards since according to TiVo these are the devil... After several different connection attempts I called the Time Warner Cable guy in to test the signal. The line in had a weighed in at 24. This is plenty "hot" to run both my Series 2 and Series 3 TiVos (by the way the Series 2 is working great). So I took out the cable cards, disconnected the cable, and cleared all the infomration off the Series 3 and begain the restart process. The TiVo fired up, downloaded the current infomration and I began adding my favorites back in. I think attempted to connect the cable. Immediately the TiVo began to skip and finally freeze up. I can disconnect the cable and it eventually goes back to normal operation. With no cable cards and good network connection, the cable is the only source of error. Is there something in the Tuner that is causing the Series 3 to "foul" up? I don't understand how it can be hardware when there is no command running when the video freezes! 

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!


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## skweak2

I've been experiencing the exact same issue w/ my stock S3. Bought it back in 11/06 it has been working great until 4 weeks ago when it would have slow response to the remote and freeze up on the red flashing light background. I had Comcast Sacramento come out and replace the CC and rewire my cable from the driveway to the house. Still didn't work so I disconnected the S3 for a couple of days and reconnected and then it worked great for a week. Then the freezing happened again - same symptoms as in this thread - only locks up when HD channels are accessed, take the CC out and the S3 works great w/ the saved shows. As a result I thought it was the CC, but after reading this thread I'm not sure. I'm going to have the Comcast tech talk w/ the TiVo tech and see if this can be resolved


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## murrays

Here's an update:

First the issue, S3 would pixelate and freeze, but only when I would tune to an HD channel. I could get the S3 to unfreeze by unplugging the incoming cable. I could watch any of the previously recorded programs in both HD and SD as well as watch live SD programs, but as soon as I tuned to an HD show, it would almost immediately start acting up (including OTA HD).

I called TiVo after making sure the issue occurred on OTA HD without the CCs plugged in. After troubleshooting they indicated I could send it back to them and replace it for $50.

Then I went round and round with my RepairMaster extended warranty. Bottom line, it took me two weeks to get the "contract" straightened out and they agreed to cover the $50 fee.

I should be getting my S3 back in another week or two.

-murray


----------



## richsadams

murrays said:


> Here's an update:
> 
> First the issue, S3 would pixelate and freeze, but only when I would tune to an HD channel. I could get the S3 to unfreeze by unplugging the incoming cable. I could watch any of the previously recorded programs in both HD and SD as well as watch live SD programs, but as soon as I tuned to an HD show, it would almost immediately start acting up (including OTA HD).
> 
> I called TiVo after making sure the issue occurred on OTA HD without the CCs plugged in. After troubleshooting they indicated I could send it back to them and replace it for $50.
> 
> Then I went round and round with my RepairMaster extended warranty. Bottom line, it took me two weeks to get the "contract" straightened out and they agreed to cover the $50 fee.
> 
> I should be getting my S3 back in another week or two.
> 
> -murray


Sheesh! What a hassle!  Thanks for keeping us posted...let us know if the new box plays nice. :up:


----------



## anfab

Series 3 reliability appears to be pretty bad - at least to me. I am on my third one since last September. The first one had lockup problems related to HDMI problems (according to technical support) and was replaced in October 2006. Second one died this September with HDD problems after exhibiting the slowness, pixellation, and lockup problems described above. Various troubleshooting options (removing cable cards, not connecting via HDMI, innumerable reboots, etc.) gave temporary relief, but problem always came back. Technical support indicated HDD problems and replaced for $49 plus $10 to ship old one back.

Meanwhile my Series 1 (Philips - 1 30G drive) has chugged along for 7 years without problem and no HW changes.

3 in one year is not a good track record! It's great when it's working, but reliability really needs to improve. If the disk drives are really this bad, then TiVo should really put some features in to error correct or at least allow recovery of initial image without having to go through the inconvenience and time of getting tech support to recognize the problem, and then the expense of swapping/shipping, and the inconvenience of reentering season passes (etc.) and losing saved programs.

I don't know if this is standard in the Community forum (I haven't found it - not that this implies it's not there), but a sticky post on how to make a backup image of a series 3 and how to restore it would be nice. Would be great if this could be done through the eSATA port.

John


----------



## PeterDC

Well add my voice to those complaining. I have had Tivo since 2001, and the only problem I have ever had is with the S3 I have now. It was working perfectly (wiht the usual audio dropouts, so more normally than perfectly) until about two weeks ago. Then it all slowed down. Menus were slooooow to fill, then response time to the remote grew, it rebooted itself first occasionally, and now frequently.

I don't know what to make of this. It is as it was out of the box. I don't have HD, so it is not tuned to any HD channels.

Does this seem like an HDD problem? Tivo HD customer service "expert" Mark told me to (I am not making this up) try not using the extension cord! Any idea what I should tell customer service when I call them again? Surely they are aware of this problem. Will Tivo replace this box? With a new one? Why won't this happen again if they do?

Peter


----------



## kirk1701

Might as well add my voice here as well, I started two threads one was answered and then the problem got worse so I added to that thread but no reply then no reply to the new thread but here's where it belongs:

First I have a 30 to 45 second freeze up in the line up menu when I go to search for shows, tonight I don't know WTF happened, we were watching a recorded show in the now playing list and two shows started recording at 8 PM. It was just a few minutes after 8 and we started to watch another show that was already recorded and all hell broke loose, I could access all the menus but no video, no live TV nor tell if the shows that were scheduled to record at 8 were actually recording. 

I played with it a little while and then the colorful background just went grey and the menu looked like freakin DOS!!!

OK, at this point I knew it needed to reboot but the red lights on the front looked like they were recording so figured Id wait till 10 because I had two more shows also recording from 9  10 PM. 

I rebooted it at 10 and it came back up fine, all 4 shows from the 8 til 9 and the 9 til 10 time slots were all recorded and saved but we still wasted the whole evening because we couldnt access anything.


----------



## richsadams

kirk1701 said:


> Might as well add my voice here as well, I started two threads one was answered and then the problem got worse so I added to that thread but no reply then no reply to the new thread but here's where it belongs:
> 
> First I have a 30 to 45 second freeze up in the line up menu when I go to search for shows, tonight I don't know WTF happened, we were watching a recorded show in the now playing list and two shows started recording at 8 PM. It was just a few minutes after 8 and we started to watch another show that was already recorded and all hell broke loose, I could access all the menus but no video, no live TV nor tell if the shows that were scheduled to record at 8 were actually recording.
> 
> I played with it a little while and then the colorful background just went grey and the menu looked like freakin DOS!!!
> 
> OK, at this point I knew it needed to reboot but the red lights on the front looked like they were recording so figured Id wait till 10 because I had two more shows also recording from 9  10 PM.
> 
> I rebooted it at 10 and it came back up fine, all 4 shows from the 8 til 9 and the 9 til 10 time slots were all recorded and saved but we still wasted the whole evening because we couldnt access anything.


IMO it sounds like data corruption. If everything continues to be good I'd leave it alone.

However if you encounter these problems again you might need TiVo to do some soul searching. Usually I'd recommend trying Kickstart 57 which runs TiVo's diagnostic program mfs check - similar to "check disk". However since you're seeing problems with the menus it may be that the firmware has been corrupted (rare but can happen with power surges, storms, etc.). That may be remedied by running "Kickstart 58". That will run mfs check as well as mfs cleanup and reinstall TiVo's software to the alternate partition. It will then boot from the newly downloaded firmware and run the diagnostic program.

*Kickstart 58:*

1. Go to TiVo Central
2. Select Messages & Setup
3. Select System Reset
4. Select Restart Receiver
5. Press Thumbs Down three times
6. Press Enter
7. While the system is restarting, during the initial screen, press and hold the PAUSE button until only the yellow front panel light illuminates.
8. As soon as the yellow lights come on, press "5" then "8" on the remote.
9. Put the remote down and wait. The system will proceed to the "Almost There..." screen for a moment and then jump to a new screen, "TiVo is installing new software from the TiVo service".
10. TiVo will reboot and the GSOD screen will come on saying TiVo has encountered a serious error. It will then run the disk management tool which can take from 10 minutes to 3 hours to complete. During this time it will look for and correct configuration problems as well as isolating any bad sectors on the hard drive so they can no longer be used.
6. TiVo will automatically reboot again and hopefully things will return to normal. (Programs that used any bad sectors may be lost.)​If that doesnt work you may want to contact TiVo and see what they suggest. You could get an exchange unit or look into replacing your hard drive (very easy to do).

Keep us posted!


----------



## richsadams

PeterDC said:


> Well add my voice to those complaining. I have had Tivo since 2001, and the only problem I have ever had is with the S3 I have now. It was working perfectly (with the usual audio dropouts, so more normally than perfectly) until about two weeks ago. Then it all slowed down. Menus were slooooow to fill, then response time to the remote grew, it rebooted itself first occasionally, and now frequently.
> 
> I don't know what to make of this. It is as it was out of the box. I don't have HD, so it is not tuned to any HD channels.
> 
> Does this seem like an HDD problem? Tivo HD customer service "expert" Mark told me to (I am not making this up) try not using the extension cord! Any idea what I should tell customer service when I call them again? Surely they are aware of this problem. Will Tivo replace this box? With a new one? Why won't this happen again if they do?
> 
> Peter


It does sound like it might be a HDD problem. Assuming you've rebooted it already (uplug Tivo, wait 10 - 15 seconds and plug it back in)?

You might want to run TiVo diagnostics program by using Kickstart 57. If the symptoms persist a call to TiVo is in order. Tell them exactly what you're seeing. They may have some other ideas or offer to replace it. Often you have to pay about $50 to exchange yours for a refurb unit (same warranty as new).

Why won't it happen again? It might...there are no guarantees in life. Odds are it won't, but HDD's do wear out and TiVo S3's do a LOT more work than our old S2's and S1's which were pretty much bullet proof. IMHO us "TiVo Oldies" are a bit spoiled by TiVo's past performance. The more complicated and high-tech things get, the more opportunities for problems...just the way it is.


----------



## AbMagFab

Funny how people with recurring problems, even after hardware replacement, continue to blame the hardware instead of something else (likely signal or environmental related).

With so many people who have great S3's working reliably, it's clearly not a systemic problem. So if it's systemic to you, it's probably not the Tivo.

Problem solving is a learned skill...


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## mulscully

Heat related? is the S3 in a cabnet? is it vented enough?
I know this sounds stupid, but....


----------



## kirk1701

richsadams said:


> IMO it sounds like data corruption. If everything continues to be good I'd leave it alone.
> 
> However if you encounter these problems again you might need TiVo to do some soul searching. Usually I'd recommend trying Kickstart 57 which runs TiVo's diagnostic program mfs check - similar to "check disk". However since you're seeing problems with the menus it may be that the firmware has been corrupted (rare but can happen with power surges, storms, etc.). That may be remedied by running "Kickstart 58". That will run mfs check as well as mfs cleanup and reinstall TiVo's software to the alternate partition. It will then boot from the newly downloaded firmware and run the diagnostic program.
> 
> *Kickstart 58:*
> 
> 1. Go to TiVo Central
> 2. Select Messages & Setup
> 3. Select System Reset
> 4. Select Restart Receiver
> 5. Press Thumbs Down three times
> 6. Press Enter
> 7. While the system is restarting, during the initial screen, press and hold the PAUSE button until only the yellow front panel light illuminates.
> 8. As soon as the yellow lights come on, press "5" then "8" on the remote.
> 9. Put the remote down and wait. The system will proceed to the "Almost There..." screen for a moment and then jump to a new screen, "TiVo is installing new software from the TiVo service".
> 10. TiVo will reboot and the GSOD screen will come on saying TiVo has encountered a serious error. It will then run the disk management tool which can take from 10 minutes to 3 hours to complete. During this time it will look for and correct configuration problems as well as isolating any bad sectors on the hard drive so they can no longer be used.
> 6. TiVo will automatically reboot again and hopefully things will return to normal. (Programs that used any bad sectors may be lost.)​If that doesnt work you may want to contact TiVo and see what they suggest. You could get an exchange unit or look into replacing your hard drive (very easy to do).
> 
> Keep us posted!


Just got off the phone with support richsadams

Was transfered to HD engineering????? Figured it was 2 level support but anyhow

He had me eject the cablecards and try the menu again to see if it froze, it did.

After telling him about the system freezing last night he said the same thing about a file being corrupted, he just didn't say firmware but I figured thats what he was refering to.

Anyhow, the Tivo HD is only a week old and they are sending a new one out to replace it, holding $317 on my CreditCard till they receive this one.

I'll let you all know what happens when I get the new one.

Now, I have about 9 shows to watch on the one I'm sending back to watch before the new one arrives 

I have an excuse to watch more TV then normal


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## richsadams

kirk1701 said:


> Just got off the phone with support richsadams
> 
> Was transfered to HD engineering????? Figured it was 2 level support but anyhow
> 
> He had me eject the cablecards and try the menu again to see if it froze, it did.
> 
> After telling him about the system freezing last night he said the same thing about a file being corrupted, he just didn't say firmware but I figured thats what he was refering to.
> 
> Anyhow, the Tivo HD is only a week old and they are sending a new one out to replace it, holding $317 on my CreditCard till they receive this one.
> 
> I'll let you all know what happens when I get the new one.
> 
> Now, I have about 9 shows to watch on the one I'm sending back to watch before the new one arrives
> 
> I have an excuse to watch more TV then normal


Oh...didn't realize that it was a new TiVo HD! Well, by all means...you deserve a new one right away...and at no expense to you. Don't stay up too late cramming all of the viewing in!


----------



## richsadams

AbMagFab said:


> Funny how people with recurring problems, even after hardware replacement, continue to blame the hardware instead of something else (likely signal or environmental related).
> 
> With so many people who have great S3's working reliably, it's clearly not a systemic problem. So if it's systemic to you, it's probably not the Tivo.
> 
> Problem solving is a learned skill...


Yep, couldn't agree more. :up: With thousands of boxes out there, there's bound to be some with problems but for the most part I'd wager that it's usually something more local.

What's really frustrating is how often cableco techs tell people that their signal is "perfect" and it must be TiVo when in reality they have no vested interest in dealing with equipment that they don't sell or understand and just want to get to the next job or coffee break. Can't blame people for thinking that something's wrong with TiVo in those circumstances.

We had to hammer Comcast when we had macroblocking/pixilation problems a while back. It took four truck rolls before they sent someone that figured out that there was something wrong at the "head end" and after about 20 minutes outside, everything was perfect. You live and learn.


----------



## bown

Has anyone has this problem fixed by the 9.1 software update?


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## fenster

> Its funny how more posts have come in over the past 60 days... what changed? Not my hardware... I have Cox as cable (not Comcast) and no eSATA or mods. My stock S3 has been great with 2 cable cards since January. Then about 3 weeks ago it has become unusable (takes minutes to get through menu items, picture locks up, etc - same stuff reported here)... This leads me to support the software issue side of the house. Now using these threads as information I will go home and see if I can get it working again


Follow up to my previous post. Well unfortunately mine was a Hard Drive issue. I bought my S3 in Jan of this year. 9 months later this issue that started 4 weeks ago is gone as I replaced the hard drive with a the same WD model drive and all is working again. Sad that after spending $700 dollars 9 months ago, I had to spend another $200 (bought a 2 year replacement warranty).


----------



## bgreen

bown said:


> Has anyone has this problem fixed by the 9.1 software update?


My Series 3 was purchased in January 2007. I added an eSATA drive in August. About 2 weeks ago, I experienced my first lockup. The unit did not respond to the remote, etc. and then a reboot going through a GSOD. This has occured 4-5 times that I am aware of over the last few weeks. I received 9.1 yesterday night and we had a lockup this evening.

Seems like the consensus is that there was maybe a bad batch of hard drives or at least very similar MTBFs. If that is really the case, a unit swap seems like a sledge hammer approah to a hard drive problem. Can anyone confirm that hard drive replacements in existing units are resolving this issue?


----------



## JPShinn

Same problem here . . . .


----------



## PeterDC

This may not be a systemwide problem, but it is clearly not something "local," in the sense of unique to each case.

My slowness and rebooting problem culminated in complete freeze up on a single screen. I rebooted while I was on the phone with the third "HD Specialist" I had had the pleasure to speak with, only this one was both a decent person and relatively skilled. Immediately upon reboot, the Tivo main menu was incredibly slow to fill. The "spotlights" in the background moved slowly and incrementally, and it took over two minutes for the Tivo to respond to a command from the remote. (When it did, the "live" program froze almost immediately, then moved jerkily and episodically.)

This persuaded the tech that it was not a cablecard problem, but a problem with the Tivo. He thought a hard drive problem. That kind of slowness smacks to me of memory bleed of some kind -- maybe from a new version of the software? This was running 8.3. Some of you who are more technically inclined can perhaps diagnose the problem from what I have described.

So, since he was nice also, as I said, he agreed to send me a new box -- that is what I asked for -- free of charge and to pay for shipping. It's now here, and hooked up, and fine (and running software v.8.1).

So my question is: Where there a batch of Tivos with bad hard drives? My old one was manufactured in Nov. 2006. Has that problem been solved? Is there a problem with the current system software? Perhaps one that is only implicated by certain configurations at individual's homes? Will my new Tivo break? Will a software update break it?

Peter


----------



## kirk1701

OK, got the new replacement hooked up wednesday night and no cablecards till this morning (Friday). However, grey screens already before this morning with just analog channels and had to reboot last night, plus again this morning while the tech came to install the cablecards which was a little embarrasing.  

I'm going to give it another day, expecting things to get worse but really don't expect to get a third replacement.

Oh, and also noticing pixelation which I didn't have as much before as I do now but wasn't looking for it either till I read about it here too.


----------



## trackzero

Revolutionary said:


> More and more of these stories are coalescing, and the common threads seem to be Series 3 + ESATA drive. Maybe there is a reason that this feature isn't supported yet? My first S3 got seriously cooked, and exhibited all of the same symptoms (pixelation/playback pauses, stalls, random reboots, freezes on the Home and Now Playing screens, loss of channel lists (and I don't have cablecards)).
> 
> Can I be sure? No. But I also haven't plugged my ESATA drive up to my warranty replacement box, either, and I won't until Tivo activates the feature and sells a warrantied drive.


Mine's doing the same pauses, picking back up when I disconnect the signal...Been doing it a few weeks, just did the 9.1 update to no avail...Doing the delete & reformat thing now. Of note, I have never connected an external drive...I'm using a TiVo wireless adapter, I've done nothing to potentially compromise the warranty...


----------



## alyssa

After I hooked up my eSATA drive I noticed a few reboots of my S3. I didn't think much off it unitl this past few weeks. 
While I was away on Vaka my S3 crashed & hung. After divorcing my eSATA drive I called tech support. 

I was asked to pop the cards, not take them out of the Tivo, just pop the buttons. When the stuttering/hanging continued while the cards were poped the tech said a swap was needed. They charged me $49 because it was "after 90 days & before 1 year". 

My eSATA drive is reconnected to the New S3 Tivo with 9.1 & life is good again.


----------



## murrays

Update:

I received the replacement S3 and all is well again (not quite in time for the new season, but I'll take it).

FWIW, I never had an external drive connected so there's at least one data point of issues without an eSATA drive.

-murray


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## kirk1701

So, anyone recomend my trying a third swap?

I'm still in the 30 days its brand new? What should I tell them when I call?


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## phecksel

kirk1701 said:


> So, anyone recomend my trying a third swap?
> 
> I'm still in the 30 days its brand new? What should I tell them when I call?


you're scaring me, I'm waiting for my 2nd one  And mines only a few days old


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## kirk1701

phecksel said:


> you're scaring me, I'm waiting for my 2nd one  And mines only a few days old


Welcome to the dark side my friend.

Plus, make matters worse my series 2 has screwed up I think. 

But thats off topis here and another story.


----------



## ThePennyDropped

kirk1701 said:


> So, anyone recomend my trying a third swap?
> 
> I'm still in the 30 days its brand new? What should I tell them when I call?


Well, my question is whether the TiVos they send you are really new or refurbished. If they really do have a significant percentage of units with hard drive problems, are they truly replacing the harddrives before sending them out as refurb units? If not, that could be why you're having trouble with your replacement unit.

After about 3 months of perfect behavior, my S3 started freezing and rebooting. The TiVo tech support person believes it to be a harddrive failure, and my replacement is on the way. I'm a little concerned that they'll just be sending me a different unit with a bad hard disk, and I'm wondering if it's possible that's what happened to you.

Anyway, I don't see what you have to lose by trying another swap, other than the cost of having the cable company out to your house again. Because when the S3 is working well, it's really an amazing device.

--Debbie


----------



## kirk1701

ThePennyDropped said:


> Well, my question is whether the TiVos they send you are really new or refurbished. If they really do have a significant percentage of units with hard drive problems, are they truly replacing the harddrives before sending them out as refurb units? If not, that could be why you're having trouble with your replacement unit.
> 
> After about 3 months of perfect behavior, my S3 started freezing and rebooting. The TiVo tech support person believes it to be a harddrive failure, and my replacement is on the way. I'm a little concerned that they'll just be sending me a different unit with a bad hard disk, and I'm wondering if it's possible that's what happened to you.
> 
> Anyway, I don't see what you have to lose by trying another swap, other than the cost of having the cable company out to your house again. Because when the S3 is working well, it's really an amazing device.
> 
> --Debbie


We'll, think I'll try it again but looking online I can get the series 3 THX with a network adapter for only $150 more then the tivoHD :up:

So I'm fixing to call Tivo and maybe because of my troubles they can give me a better deal 

I'll keep yu's updated.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Clearly, something is amiss. My tivo has been getting slower for the last two days and it has just rebooted twice in one hour. It's not limited to my machine, my mothers has done this twice in the last three days as well. What's new? Yep a new service update. Till now the units have both been dead reliable. I hope it fixes itself. After the second reboot, the unit appears to be basically useless. The remote has no real effect and when it finally makes the menu appear, they show up one line at a time .....


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Make that three times now.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

And now it plays back slowly with delays.... And the menus are messed up. I'm not sure what to try. KS57 ot KS58?


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

richsadams said:


> That doesn't sound good...and really frustrating.  Points to a HDD problem.
> 
> You could give the old standby "Kickstart 57" a try. That will cause TiVo to run its built-in diagnostic program. It's worked for some. You could disconnect your antenna before trying it, but I'm not sure that would make any difference either way.
> 
> *Kickstart 57:*
> 
> 1. Unplug TiVo and wait 15 seconds.
> 2. Plug TiVo in, get the TiVo remote and aim it at TiVo.
> 3. Press and hold the pause button until the orange light comes back on by itself.
> 4. Release the pause button and immediately type in the numbers 5 and 7 on the remote (you have about 10 seconds to do this step).
> 5. TiVo will reboot and the GSOD screen will come on saying TiVo has encountered a serious error. It will then run the disk management tool which can take from 10 minutes to 3 hours to complete. During this time it will look for and correct configuration problems as well as isolating any bad sectors on the hard drive so they can no longer be used.
> 6. TiVo will automatically reboot again and hopefully things will return to normal. (Programs that used any bad sectors may be lost.)
> 
> If that doesnt work you may want to contact TiVo and see what they suggest. You might want to get an exchange unit or look into replacing your hard drive (very easy to do).
> 
> Best of luck!


I can't seem to get this to work. As soon as I plug in the unit, the blue and orange buttons come on along with the tivo icon and the two record lights. I have the pause button pressed but it never does anything. How long do I need to hold it. The last time I kept holding it but it just went right on through to the almost there screen which is where it is now.

Well, it finally got back to the menu but now it doesn't respond at all.

Even the background video of the lights plays back with a stutter in the playback where it just stops, then starts back up. Just before it rebooted the last time, the playback of the video started to do that as well.

I'm not a happy camper. BTW, while I was trying this message it just rebooted for the 4th time in the last 2 hours.

And after waiting 15 minutes on hold it rang once and then it hung up on me. Tivo is firing on all cylinders today.


----------



## alyssa

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I can't seem to get this to work. As soon as I plug in the unit, the blue and orange buttons come on along with the tivo icon and the two record lights. I have the pause button pressed but it never does anything. How long do I need to hold it. The last time I kept holding it but it just went right on through to the almost there screen which is where it is now.


When I did it a week ago due to a similar problem I unpluged, waited, repluged, then
4 lights came on- I pressed & held the pause until *only the orange light was on* then press 5 7. The tivo cycled through everything till the very end & the gsod appeared.


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## IJustLikeTivo

alyssa said:


> When I did it a week ago due to a similar problem I unpluged, waited, repluged, then
> 4 lights came on- I pressed & held the pause until *only the orange light was on* then press 5 7. The tivo cycled through everything till the very end & the gsod appeared.


OK, since the unit is otherwise dead, I tried once more. I waited what seemed like forever for the orange light to go on, then pressed the 5 and 7 and many moons later it finally gave me the GSOD. I'll check in the morning and see what happens.

Edited to add: Finished and still screwed up. I'll be sending it back for exchange as planned. I was hoping to get it back long enough to tide me over till the replacement shows up.


----------



## Laurence5905

I've considered myself lucky so far, that I've not had any of these problems I've been reading about. Even my Comcast dual-cable-card setup has never had a single glitch.

HOWEVER, since the new software update, my TiVo has had ALL of these problems -- pixellation, not responding to the remote immediately (if at all), random re-starts, etc., etc...

The previous release of the software is on the alternate boot partition, right? How do I force my TiVo (a completely un-modified Series 3, with no eSATA drive or anything) to boot from the alternate boot partition? Is there a kick-start command for that?

Thanks in advance,
Laurence MacNeill
Mableton, Georgia, USA


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## peterxy

Last contact with Tivo support (weeks ago when all the above documented issues began) revolved around promise from them that all S3 issues would be resolved with the pending service update. Well guess what? Someone forgot to tell the service update people to build in a fix. Service update is out, problems are unchanged. S3 is an ever increasing disaster and we users are idiots for jumping around like lab monkeys. This monkey is declaring the experiment over. No thank you for refurbed unit that more than likely will replicate the hemmorrhage (per anecdotes to date) while Tivo tries to buy more time. An honest declaration of the scope, cause and timetable for resolution would have served the company well.

I want convenience and pleasure in exchange for my money not a project and headaches (to say nothing about the insult to my intelligence).


----------



## kirk1701

peterxy said:


> Last contact with Tivo support (weeks ago when all the above documented issues began) revolved around promise from them that all S3 issues would be resolved with the pending service update. Well guess what? Someone forgot to tell the service update people to build in a fix. Service update is out, problems are unchanged. S3 is an ever increasing disaster and we users are idiots for jumping around like lab monkeys. This monkey is declaring the experiment over. No thank you for refurbed unit that more than likely will replicate the hemmorrhage (per anecdotes to date) while Tivo tries to buy more time. An honest declaration of the scope, cause and timetable for resolution would have served the company well.
> 
> I want convenience and pleasure in exchange for my money not a project and headaches (to say nothing about the insult to my intelligence).


Actually, think I'm starting to find out my problems are also related to "refurbed units" 

Both the TivoHD's I have went through are refurbs and I was not aware they were till the customer service agent brought it to my attention. So, I'm now sending the second one back, looking for a new and not refubed series 3 TMX not HD


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## IJustLikeTivo

Oddly, my unit spontaneously fixed itself long enough for me to watch most of the shows it recorded last week then started to screw up again. I was nice to the lackey I spoke to when I got my RMA on Sat but this clearly seems like software not hardware. It's just too much of a coincidence that hardware that has been deal reliable suddenly starts acting up right after the update and not just on one machine but both of the units I deal with.

I'm at my wits end. I still have D* and I'm almost ready to upgrade my satellites and play with their POS DVR. It has to be more reliable right now than my series 3.


----------



## richsadams

Laurence5905 said:


> The previous release of the software is on the alternate boot partition, right? How do I force my TiVo (a completely un-modified Series 3, with no eSATA drive or anything) to boot from the alternate boot partition? Is there a kick-start command for that?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Laurence MacNeill
> Mableton, Georgia, USA


Unfortunately there isn't a KS or other way to roll TiVo back to a previous version.


----------



## richsadams

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I can't seem to get this to work. As soon as I plug in the unit, the blue and orange buttons come on along with the tivo icon and the two record lights. I have the pause button pressed but it never does anything. How long do I need to hold it. The last time I kept holding it but it just went right on through to the almost there screen which is where it is now.
> 
> Well, it finally got back to the menu but now it doesn't respond at all.
> 
> Even the background video of the lights plays back with a stutter in the playback where it just stops, then starts back up. Just before it rebooted the last time, the playback of the video started to do that as well.
> 
> I'm not a happy camper. BTW, while I was trying this message it just rebooted for the 4th time in the last 2 hours.
> 
> And after waiting 15 minutes on hold it rang once and then it hung up on me. Tivo is firing on all cylinders today.


Very frustrating indeed.  Based on how long you've been around the forum you probably have already concluded that all of the symptoms point to configuration corruption or a failing HDD. That it happened in concurrence with a software upgrade may or may not be a coincidence.

If KS57 didn't get TiVo to go into diagnostic mode I suspect that there's more to it than the upgrade version as well...it's possible that the upgrade was corrupted on download. You could try KS58 (same procedure as KS57 but press 5 and 8 instead) which will run the diagnostics as well as download the firmware again. That is if you can get it to respond to the boot up procedure properly (good batteries in the remote?).

Hope things work out and keep us posted!


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## IJustLikeTivo

richsadams said:


> Very frustrating indeed.  Based on how long you've been around the forum you probably have already concluded that all of the symptoms point to configuration corruption or a failing HDD. That it happened in concurrence with a software upgrade may or may not be a coincidence.
> 
> If KS57 didn't get TiVo to go into diagnostic mode I suspect that there's more to it than the upgrade version as well...it's possible that the upgrade was corrupted on download. You could try KS58 (same procedure as KS57 but press 5 and 8 instead) which will run the diagnostics as well as download the firmware again. That is if you can get it to respond to the boot up procedure properly (good batteries in the remote?).
> 
> Hope things work out and keep us posted!


I finally got the KS57 to work. Originally, I was just as bad as before. I left to play golf with my boss and when I got home it was fine for about 5 hours then it went into sloooooowwwww mode again. I haven't checked today to see what it's doing.

I might try the full on KS58 just in case.


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## Laurence5905

richsadams said:


> Unfortunately there isn't a KS or other way to roll TiVo back to a previous version.


Hmmm... I thought maybe there was a way to force it to boot off the alternate partition... Guess I was wrong... (Or maybe it only applied to my Series 1 TiVo, which is the only one I ever did any "hacking" on.)

At any rate -- I've noticed that as long as I don't record any HD cable channels, everything's fine. If either tuner is receiving an HD channel, the TiVo behaves like it has an old 386DX 25MHz CPU in there... And if both tuners are receiving HD channels, I have to unplug the cable in order to get it to respond to me at all... So, obviously, there's some bug in the new software that causes it to use all of its CPU cycles when it's receiving HD signals. So if anyone from TiVo is paying attention, that's where the problem is!

(FYI: I don't have an OTA HD Antenna, so I cannot test OTA HD recording -- the only HD recording I can do is thru my cable, which utilizes the cable-cards, of course. But before the new software "upgrade," everything was just fine, despite the problems that other folks were having with their Comcast cable-card-equipped S3 TiVos. This is the first time I've had any problems at all -- I was, until now, quite satisfied with my S3 TiVo's recording and playback performance.)


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## wdwms

Laurence5905 said:


> At any rate -- I've noticed that as long as I don't record any HD cable channels, everything's fine. If either tuner is receiving an HD channel, the TiVo behaves like it has an old 386DX 25MHz CPU in there... And if both tuners are receiving HD channels, I have to unplug the cable in order to get it to respond to me at all... So, obviously, there's some bug in the new software that causes it to use all of its CPU cycles when it's receiving HD signals. So if anyone from TiVo is paying attention, that's where the problem is!


Identical to the problem I was having. My replacement S3 is on the UPS truck and will be delivered today. They've already move my lifetime sub to the new unit.

Here is how my issue progressed a day or two between each progression
1. All working fine
2. Issue surfaced when both tuners were tuned to HD
3. Issue surfaced when only 1 tuner was tuned to hd and one to sd
** I then removed 2nd cable card **
4. Issue continued when the 1 tuner was tuned to hd
5. Infrequent "blips" in SD content

Leads me to believe this is a hardware issue... possibly the hard drive. The problem got worse and worse as things went on. I don't think anything else in the system would go downhill that way. For instance, if the CC tuner went bad, thats it, it would go bad. But not become a gradual degredation in performance.

What "could" be happening is that through usage/updates/etc. different areas of the HD's with errors are becoming more frequently used or being used for the first time. Additionally if the software update changed the way the live tv or record buffers are physically written to on the disk, or added enough data to pust the buffers to a different spot on the disk, and these areas of the disk are bad, well then the problem would surface. Granted disk write locations are usually at a lower level. However this would mean a batch of bad hard drives. Or possibly hard drives that were never tuned properly with correct IO settings for Tivo.

Additionally certain HD channels had the probelm surfacing faster than others. For instance, a PBS cooking show recorded the entire 30 minutes, however after about 5 minutes into the show the recording jumps all over the place, skips around, etc. Another HD show was recorded but the Tivo gave up after 5 minutes; and thats all that is recorded is 5 minutes. Leads me to believe that bit-rate is the factor.

I'm not so sure the 9.1 software is truely at fault at this point.. We'll have to see how my replacement box turns out and how Tivo responds to other individuals issues.

-t


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## IJustLikeTivo

That sounds like my issue more or less.

I tried the KS58 and that did nothing. The new unit is in Baltimore but typical of TiVo lately, the sent me the shipping link along with the tracking web site at DHL. Which would be great except that the tracking number is for UPS.... ;-)


----------



## kirk1701

IJustLikeTivo said:


> That sounds like my issue more or less.
> 
> I tried the KS58 and that did nothing. The new unit is in Baltimore but typical of TiVo lately, the sent me the shipping link along with the tracking web site at DHL. Which would be great except that the tracking number is for UPS.... ;-)


Check your e-mail again, thats a form letter sent out with BOTH links to UPS and DHL and also tells you if the tracking # starts with letters its UPS and if it starts with numbers its DHL


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

Oh, this just keeps getting better. 

I just got an email letting me know that a charge for $799 has been put on my CC. Now, the current tivo.com price for a new boxed series 3 with all accessories is $599, how in the blue blazes can they justify a charge of 799 for a refurb unit with no accessories?

They are getting perilously close to losing a customer. First they told me I wouldn't be charged UNLESS I failed to return the Unit in 60 days. I was not told it was a reburb and I certainly can't begin to accept the price.


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## IJustLikeTivo

kirk1701 said:


> Check your e-mail again, thats a form letter sent out with BOTH links to UPS and DHL and also tells you if the tracking # starts with letters its UPS and if it starts with numbers its DHL


Amazingly, I can really read. The email I got is not that same letter you refer to. The on I got has ONLY the DHL link along with the UPS tracking number but it doesn't say it is UPS. It just says it was shipped via ground with that number and that I can track it on DHL .com using that number.


----------



## ThePennyDropped

My replacement S3 arrived yesterday. I went to plug it in last night, and it died within two minutes, with an obvious electrical problem. Don't they test these refurb units before they ship them out?  

So I called and got an RMA and shipped it back to them today. The replacement for my replacement hasn't shipped yet, but between the shipping fees and the fee for Comcast to come out, this problem is starting to cost some real money.

I really hope my next replacement S3 is healthy.

--Debbie


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## wdwms

S3 replacement just arrived.. Doing the guided setup right now... 

Differences:
1. OLED is deeper orange
2. Manuf date is August '07 versus Oct '06 on my old one
3. Seems speedier
4. Cable card "clear to exit" box has graduated colors, the old one did not have this.

Will report in after I get the CC's setup

-t


----------



## richsadams

Laurence5905 said:


> Hmmm... I thought maybe there was a way to force it to boot off the alternate partition... Guess I was wrong... (Or maybe it only applied to my Series 1 TiVo, which is the only one I ever did any "hacking" on.)
> 
> At any rate -- I've noticed that as long as I don't record any HD cable channels, everything's fine. If either tuner is receiving an HD channel, the TiVo behaves like it has an old 386DX 25MHz CPU in there... And if both tuners are receiving HD channels, I have to unplug the cable in order to get it to respond to me at all... So, obviously, there's some bug in the new software that causes it to use all of its CPU cycles when it's receiving HD signals. So if anyone from TiVo is paying attention, that's where the problem is!
> 
> (FYI: I don't have an OTA HD Antenna, so I cannot test OTA HD recording -- the only HD recording I can do is thru my cable, which utilizes the cable-cards, of course. But before the new software "upgrade," everything was just fine, despite the problems that other folks were having with their Comcast cable-card-equipped S3 TiVos. This is the first time I've had any problems at all -- I was, until now, quite satisfied with my S3 TiVo's recording and playback performance.)


IIRC the symptom you describe, TiVo activity slowing/stopping but improving once the cable is disconnected, has been reported off and on for a long time, even before v8.3x was pushed out. It's obviously a signal processing issue...might be with TiVo, might be with your signal.

That's not to say that the latest upgrade didn't trigger the problem for you and others, but it's not a _new_ problem. So I'm almost certain that it's not a "v9.1 bug" and that there's hope but I'm not sure what the remedy is (never paid attention to the posts about it never having had the problem). I know searching the forum is difficult at best but you might try that. It might also be worth starting a new thread noting exactly what you described here; TiVo slows or stops while connected to coax cable but works fine when I disconnect my cable. (I'd keep it at that or replies will stray into other territory.) Im pretty sure theres an answer out there.

You might try running Guided Setup again to reset the incoming signal configuration.

*Guided Setup*

1. TiVo Central
2. Messages and Settings
3. Settings
4. Restart or Reset TiVo
5. Repeat Guided Setup​You could also have a look at my post on another thread for some suggestions. If that doesn't work hopefully some others will have some ideas and of course a call to TiVo would be in order.

Hope things get better and keep us posted!


----------



## wdwms

richsadams said:


> IIRC the symptom you describe, TiVo activity slowing/stopping but improving once the cable is disconnected, has been reported off and on for a long time, even before v8.3x was pushed out. It's obviously a signal processing issue...might be with TiVo, might be with your signal.
> 
> You might try running Guided Setup again to reset the incoming signal configuration.
> 
> *Guided Setup*
> 
> 1. TiVo Central
> 2. Messages and Settings
> 3. Settings
> 4. Restart or Reset TiVo
> 5. Repeat Guided Setup​You could also have a look at my post on another thread for some suggestions. If that doesn't work hopefully some others will have some ideas and of course a call to TiVo would be in order.
> 
> Hope things get better and keep us posted!


FYI, on mine that had the issue I did Kickstart 57, 58, repeat guided setup with and without cable cards, with 1 CC, with 2 CC.

Nothing helped... This is a hardware issue, as you pointed out, it is not new and has been around for some time.

My replacement arriveed 45 min ago and its updating at the moment.. all looks good so far.


----------



## wdwms

Update... Comcast is coming today to "fix" the cablecards. They can't get their act together and figure out what "re-pairing the CC" means.. I'm getting the Waiting for CP Auth, which means the card is activated but not authorized.. In a nutshell I can see all channels except those with the CCI flag set to 0. They insist on a truck roll...

Differences:
1. OLED is deeper orange
2. Manuf date is August '07 versus Oct '06 on my old one
3. Faster
4. IR target location moved


Aside from that the replacement Tivo now has 8.3 and is much faster than the previous box. Also the IR target is in a different location. I have IR house system that has an emitter that is stuck via sticky tape to the shelf tivo sits on. I put the new tivo in the exact same spot as the original; however I had to move the IR emitter over a good 2 inches to the right for it to work. This may support the fact that there are some other hardware changes between these manufacture dates.

Other than that the HD channels and such are working fine, no issues at all with this replacement box.


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

wdwms said:


> Update... Comcast is coming today to "fix" the cablecards. They can't get their act together and figure out what "re-pairing the CC" means.. I'm getting the Waiting for CP Auth, which means the card is activated but not authorized.. In a nutshell I can see all channels except those with the CCI flag set to 0. They insist on a truck roll...


I'm not clear why that has to happen. I thought once the card new how to work, it would work in any machine. Am I going to have to call Comcrap to get my Tivo working after I install the replacement? Geeze, what a pain in the A$$ that will be. They're useless.


----------



## wdwms

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I'm not clear why that has to happen. I thought once the card new how to work, it would work in any machine. Am I going to have to call Comcrap to get my Tivo working after I install the replacement? Geeze, what a pain in the A$$ that will be. They're useless.


It will work for any channels that are not copy protected; and can be moved from host ID to host id.. HOWEVER, the CP Auth validation that needs to occur is only valid for one host ID. Removing the cards or moving them to another host breaks this validation pairing and any channels with copy protection can not be viewed. Comcast hasn't figured this out yet.

I know what needs to be done: host ID/CC# needs to be un-paired from my account (there are 3 pieces that get "paired": Host ID, CC# and account). Then they need to be re-paired; inserted in Tivo, a hit sent and all should work.

What will happen is that Comcast will tell me "They are already paired", ignoring the fact that you have to un-pair for this to work. They've already told me this before, so they'll say it again when the tech gets here. Then they'll put in new cards, re-pair them with the host ID, and what do you know! the Tivo will work! yes because its a new pairing! DUH! if they just un-paired and re-paired the original cards they could have saved a truck roll. Instead they insist that once paired, always paired.. NOPE.... Tivo Tech confirmed this with me last night as well..

-t


----------



## IJustLikeTivo

wdwms said:


> It will work for any channels that are not copy protected; and can be moved from host ID to host id.. HOWEVER, the CP Auth validation that needs to occur is only valid for one host ID. Removing the cards or moving them to another host breaks this validation pairing and any channels with copy protection can not be viewed. Comcast hasn't figured this out yet.
> 
> I know what needs to be done: host ID/CC# needs to be un-paired from my account (there are 3 pieces that get "paired": Host ID, CC# and account). Then they need to be re-paired; inserted in Tivo, a hit sent and all should work.
> 
> What will happen is that Comcast will tell me "They are already paired", ignoring the fact that you have to un-pair for this to work. They've already told me this before, so they'll say it again when the tech gets here. Then they'll put in new cards, re-pair them with the host ID, and what do you know! the Tivo will work! yes because its a new pairing! DUH! if they just un-paired and re-paired the original cards they could have saved a truck roll. Instead they insist that once paired, always paired.. NOPE.... Tivo Tech confirmed this with me last night as well..
> 
> -t


Ok, that's the piece that was missing. I didn't know the Card cared what unit it was in.

Thanks


----------



## wdwms

Success! After a 2 hour Comcast Tech visit, who did no more than dial 2 phone numbers and watch me run the calls. And after dialing in Tivo via conference call to tell Comcast that the cards were not paired, and after listening to the Comcast CSR on the phone in the background asking questions....

After all that, I have a working S3 again... woohoo! Even now have 2 multi-stream CCs..

-t


----------



## alyssa

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Ok, that's the piece that was missing. I didn't know the Card cared what unit it was in.
> 
> Thanks


I had a hard time with my first CC install back in dec of 06. I just did another install & it was down right painless. I was amazed, within a 1/2 hour I was running the guided setup.


----------



## richsadams

wdwms said:


> Success! After a 2 hour Comcast Tech visit, who did no more than dial 2 phone numbers and watch me run the calls. And after dialing in Tivo via conference call to tell Comcast that the cards were not paired, and after listening to the Comcast CSR on the phone in the background asking questions....
> 
> After all that, I have a working S3 again... woohoo! Even now have 2 multi-stream CCs..
> 
> -t


And the crowd goes wild! :up: :up:


----------



## dtivotom

There have been a bunch of reports of shows not being recorded because one card stops working. I have done some experiments with my S3 Tivo to get the problem to repeat.

It seems that if you have 2 shows that are going to start at the same time and they both use cable cards (digital or HD) and at least one or both of your tuners are using the standard cable tuner before the recording, you will blow one of your cards when the tivo tries to tune two cable cards at the same time.

Manual recordings do not blow the cards. It has to be two season passes or selected recordings due to start at the same time. Also if the tuner does not have to change stations to record, your cards will be ok.

I have moved my Network season passes to the OTA tuner. If I record OTA 6.1 at the same time as 720 HBO, my cards are fine. If I record two cable card shows at the same time (start time that is) It will blow card 1.

Rebooting is a temp fix for the card, but that only lasts until you record two cable card shows starting at the same time.

Can someone get this info to the Tivo Programmers?

Thanks
Dtivotom


----------



## peterxy

richsadams said:


> And the crowd goes wild! :up: :up:


Have we really sunk this low as S3 owners that we CHEER the temporary cessation of an owner's frustration.

As of tonight the word from Tivo level 2 tech support regarding the numerous S3 units experiencing slow-down and freeze-up and re-boots when units are connected to cable: "it is a known SOFTWARE issue and engineering is working on a patch". No need to search these forums for such answers. Save the time to unwind from the pleasure and convenience brought to you by your Tivo S3 and the attentive manufacturer.


----------



## richsadams

peterxy said:


> Have we really sunk this low as S3 owners that we CHEER the temporary cessation of an owner's frustration.


Nah, it's just that most of us who have been here for years have our priorities straight (read: it's just TV FGS!) as well as a sick sense of humor. 

Want proof? Some of us also own Windows based computers.  Go figure.


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## alyssa

richsadams said:


> Want proof? Some of us also own Windows based computers.  Go figure.


Hey, I resemble that remark 

signed 
vista user


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## IJustLikeTivo

peterxy said:


> Have we really sunk this low as S3 owners that we CHEER the temporary cessation of an owner's frustration.
> 
> As of tonight the word from Tivo level 2 tech support regarding the numerous S3 units experiencing slow-down and freeze-up and re-boots when units are connected to cable: "it is a known SOFTWARE issue and engineering is working on a patch". No need to search these forums for such answers. Save the time to unwind from the pleasure and convenience brought to you by your Tivo S3 and the attentive manufacturer.


Yeah right. They sure denied that to hell and back when I was on the phone with the vaunted level 2 tech on Sunday.


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## bizzy

thats odd, i had this problem a couple of months ago and they shipped me a refurb.


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## malhotra365

Had my tivo for 24 days (according to tivo), the interface is intermittantly slow and that has been a problem since I purchased it. It updated on 10/3 to the new software and since then it has a problem rebooting. It has only occured during two instances. Once while it was simultaneously recording "dirty sexy money" and "life" on Wednesday nights, and when recording "ugly betty" (for my wife) and "earl/office" on Thursday nights. So last night it was recording "ugly betty" and "earl" and it rebooted twice while I was watching a previously recorded "big shots". I finally got pissed and called TiVo.

The "HD specialist" (all above shows were HD) told me they are aware of this problem and it is usually either the network adapter (she said either a third party or even the proprietary tivo adapter) or cable cards. So I know have my network adapter unplugged and am doing a trial to see if the prob reoccurs.

1) My first issue is they can't expect me to only plug in my network adapter every two weeks, that is just riduculous. I pay money for convenience and for the product to work as stated.

2)None of this addresses how slow the unit is functioning. It takes approx 15 seconds to populate the screen when I go to the "Now Playing" screen.

3) I'm tired of my shows being in three fragments for two reboots and missing approx 10 mins (two five min blocks while rebooting) in the middle.

My configuration is as follows:
S3 HD tivo
two cable cards (one single and one multi)
component hookup (ps3 is using the hdmi slot)
comcast

I guess I'll give it up to 90days for them to release a software/firmware update and hopefully solve this. Otherwise it goes back and I'll just wait......I sure wish I would've kept those green cable card slot protectors!!


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## IJustLikeTivo

OK, this is weird.

I got the refurb last night. I ran guided set up, removed the CC from the old one, installed them and without pairing, they worked. I'm assuming that at some point they'll stop working when it gets a signal but I didn't expect it to work at all.


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## wdwms

IJustLikeTivo said:


> OK, this is weird.
> 
> I got the refurb last night. I ran guided set up, removed the CC from the old one, installed them and without pairing, they worked. I'm assuming that at some point they'll stop working when it gets a signal but I didn't expect it to work at all.


That is normal, you can move CC between devices once they are setup. HOWEVER once you move them the pairing for channels w/the copy protect flag set will NOT be tuned.

Here those channels are USA, TBS, TBS HD, Encore, Flix, etc... So go through everyone of your channels to see if you get a box pop up on the screen after about 1-3 seconds of video on the channel.

You probably have "Waiting for CP Auth" if it is a SA card in the diag screen. This means the pairing for CopyProtection (CP) authorization is not set up. This is the validation stage of a CC setup. and your cable provider can re-do this (took me 6 CSRs, a tech visit, Tivo on the phone and a village idiot to accomplish this feat 3 days ago)

-t


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## AbMagFab

wdwms said:


> That is normal, you can move CC between devices once they are setup. HOWEVER once you move them the pairing for channels w/the copy protect flag set will NOT be tuned.
> 
> Here those channels are USA, TBS, TBS HD, Encore, Flix, etc... So go through everyone of your channels to see if you get a box pop up on the screen after about 1-3 seconds of video on the channel.
> 
> You probably have "Waiting for CP Auth" if it is a SA card in the diag screen. This means the pairing for CopyProtection (CP) authorization is not set up. This is the validation stage of a CC setup. and your cable provider can re-do this (took me 6 CSRs, a tech visit, Tivo on the phone and a village idiot to accomplish this feat 3 days ago)
> 
> -t


Not entirely true, it really depends on your provider and the area you live in.

For example, I had Comcast before, and they didn't actually pair anything. I could move my CC's around from box to box, and they always worked.

FIOS (at least in my area) is the same. Move them around, no problems. Yes, the pairing information changes, and if they ever decide to enforce that, anything I've moved will need to be re-authed, but for now, it's not a problem to move them around.

The above poster might be in the same situation, and might never see a problem.


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## DVRz

We are having a bit of a frustrating time.

We had a Series 2 TiVo that stopped working when it got the Fall Update. It would not get past "Almost Done". After attempting to run Kickstart 57, it now loops endlessly. It gets to "Almost Done", then the GSOD, then restarts itself, over and over.

Because our unit is 4 years old and we wanted HD, we decided to replace it rather than repair it. We purchased a TiVo Branded Series 3 HD model from Amazon. When it arrived this week, we hooked it up, only to discover that it, too, hangs at "Almost Done". For hours.

I tried running Kickstart 57 on it, but it doesn't do what the instructions say it should. When it is powered on a single green light appears. About 1-1.5 minutes in, a yellow and red light appear horizontally alongside the green one for a few seconds. The red and yellow lights go away and the green light stays steady. Shortly after this it switches to the "Almost Done" screen and stays there forever, with a steady green light.

No amount of holding the Pause button will trigger a lone yellow light to appear. We tried pushing 57 after the brief red/yellow flash, but that didn't work.

So I've gotten an RMA to return the HD unit and it will be shipped out tomorrow, unless someone here has any other suggestions for getting the unit to boot. We have not completed guided setup since it won't ever go past "Almost Done". No idea what version of the software it shipped with.


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## richsadams

DVRz said:


> We are having a bit of a frustrating time.
> 
> We had a Series 2 TiVo that stopped working when it got the Fall Update. It would not get past "Almost Done". After attempting to run Kickstart 57, it now loops endlessly. It gets to "Almost Done", then the GSOD, then restarts itself, over and over.
> 
> Because our unit is 4 years old and we wanted HD, we decided to replace it rather than repair it. We purchased a TiVo Branded Series 3 HD model from Amazon. When it arrived this week, we hooked it up, only to discover that it, too, hangs at "Almost Done". For hours.
> 
> I tried running Kickstart 57 on it, but it doesn't do what the instructions say it should. When it is powered on a single green light appears. About 1-1.5 minutes in, a yellow and red light appear horizontally alongside the green one for a few seconds. The red and yellow lights go away and the green light stays steady. Shortly after this it switches to the "Almost Done" screen and stays there forever, with a steady green light.
> 
> No amount of holding the Pause button will trigger a lone yellow light to appear. We tried pushing 57 after the brief red/yellow flash, but that didn't work.
> 
> So I've gotten an RMA to return the HD unit and it will be shipped out tomorrow, unless someone here has any other suggestions for getting the unit to boot. We have not completed guided setup since it won't ever go past "Almost Done". No idea what version of the software it shipped with.


Just to be sure, it sounds like you have what's known here as a TiVo HD unit, pictured here. Not to be confused with a the original TiVo Series 3, pictured here.

You should not have to run any kickstart programs on a brand new TiVo...ever. It could be a coincidence and you just received a defective new TiVo, but if you're experiencing the same issues with your old series 2 and your new TiVo HD there may be other problems. Have you tried booting either one up while it is disconnected from your cable source...by removing or not attaching the coax cable? If it boots up properly there may be a local issue with your cable provider. It may sound crazy, but you could also try plugging TiVo into a different electrical outlet. There are occassions where wiring has caused problems as well. (Hopefully you're using a quality surge protector strip or better yet, a UPS or uninterruptable power supply.)

Let us know how you get on with your new TiVo replacement.

P.S. For anyone interested, the far left light (pictured here) is the KS/command light on the TiVo HD. When that light is briefly illuminated after rebooting TiVo the kickstart command should work.


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## DVRz

Yeah we have tried all of the above. It is plugged into a UPS surge protector.

With the tv cable connected and not connected; with the network cable connected and not connected; and on two different televisions in two different rooms. We finally called TiVo support and they said it was DOA. Either it is for sure dead, or the CS rep just didn't know how or want to troubleshoot it any further. And I am wholly unwilling to crack the case on a brand new unit and void my opportunity to exchange it for one that works, so power cycling it and trying it in different locations is the extent of my effort.

Your screenshot is our model. It's never gotten so far in booting for us to see any lights but the green light on the far left hand side. VERY briefly about 1 minute in, while still on the "Powering Up" screen, a yellow light to the left of the green light and a single red light blink quickly on and back off simultaneously. Shortly afterward the "Almost Done" screen appears and the Tivo seems to stop doing anything at all beyond that. The lefthand green light stays steady for as many hours as the box is allowed to sit.

I'm going to try it one more time this afternoon before I drop it off at UPS, but I don't expect the behavior to be any different, I guess.


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## AbMagFab

Possibl coincidence, but sure smells liks something environmental.

And UPS has a battery, not just surge suppression.


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## DVRz

AbMagFab said:


> Possibl coincidence, but sure smells liks something environmental.
> 
> And UPS has a battery, not just surge suppression.


Umm yes I am aware of it. ;-)

Short of carrying it to another residence to test it, there's nothing else we can try. Two different televisions in two different rooms on two different electrical circuits using two different sets of cables to connect to said televisions, testing with and without network hooked up, and with and without tv cable hooked up, all yield the same result, on the TiVo HD. Again the TiVo CS said it was definitely dead, because even if there were some signal issue on the cable it should have booted without that.

As for the old series 2, it's four years old next month and it has been heavily used by our family since it was purchased. The night it died, it started doing "freeze frames" and stuttering while we were watching a recorded program (it was recording something else at the time as well). After a few minutes it shut down and has never been able to reboot. This was two days after it received and installed the fall update. The symptoms fit perfectly with hard drive failure.

The S2 pretty much reached its life expectancy for that hard drive, and based on the numerous postings here and elsewhere on the web, we aren't the only ones who had hard disks die when this fall update was pushed out. The disk failure issue sounds fairly widespread. So no I don't think it's coincidence that both units are messed up... we also aren't the only ones posting here that got dead HD units out of boxes, either.  It happens. Amazon did not do a very good job packing it, either. It was in a large box with almost no padding so I am sure it got bounced around a lot.


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## richsadams

DVRz said:


> Yeah we have tried all of the above. It is plugged into a UPS surge protector.
> 
> With the tv cable connected and not connected; with the network cable connected and not connected; and on two different televisions in two different rooms. We finally called TiVo support and they said it was DOA. Either it is for sure dead, or the CS rep just didn't know how or want to troubleshoot it any further. And I am wholly unwilling to crack the case on a brand new unit and void my opportunity to exchange it for one that works, so power cycling it and trying it in different locations is the extent of my effort.
> 
> Your screenshot is our model. It's never gotten so far in booting for us to see any lights but the green light on the far left hand side. VERY briefly about 1 minute in, while still on the "Powering Up" screen, a yellow light to the left of the green light and a single red light blink quickly on and back off simultaneously. Shortly afterward the "Almost Done" screen appears and the Tivo seems to stop doing anything at all beyond that. The lefthand green light stays steady for as many hours as the box is allowed to sit.
> 
> I'm going to try it one more time this afternoon before I drop it off at UPS, but I don't expect the behavior to be any different, I guess.


Yep, sounds like you've done all of the homework you can. Sorry to hear that you had to go through all of that...very aggravating. 

Hopefully the replacement will fire up seamlessly and you'll be back in business. Let us know how it goes. :up:


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## turbovr6

Hope I am in the right post. I have a Tivo HD in which I assume is on the Series 3 Architecture. I used to have the vanishing video issue but now the Tivo just Locks up. Only happens when I press Live TV or flip through the channels. Specs are as follows:

OTA only signal on all channels are 95+
Sharp Aquos TV HDMI Native Mode
Weaknees 1 TB Hitachi Cinamastar Drive
9.1 software

When I say Lock up, it really crashes. Remote indicator light does not blink nor can I ping the unit.


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## Lmuggs

Laurence5905 said:


> Hmmm... I thought maybe there was a way to force it to boot off the alternate partition... Guess I was wrong... (Or maybe it only applied to my Series 1 TiVo, which is the only one I ever did any "hacking" on.)
> 
> At any rate -- I've noticed that as long as I don't record any HD cable channels, everything's fine. If either tuner is receiving an HD channel, the TiVo behaves like it has an old 386DX 25MHz CPU in there... And if both tuners are receiving HD channels, I have to unplug the cable in order to get it to respond to me at all... So, obviously, there's some bug in the new software that causes it to use all of its CPU cycles when it's receiving HD signals. So if anyone from TiVo is paying attention, that's where the problem is!
> 
> (FYI: I don't have an OTA HD Antenna, so I cannot test OTA HD recording -- the only HD recording I can do is thru my cable, which utilizes the cable-cards, of course. But before the new software "upgrade," everything was just fine, despite the problems that other folks were having with their Comcast cable-card-equipped S3 TiVos. This is the first time I've had any problems at all -- I was, until now, quite satisfied with my S3 TiVo's recording and playback performance.)


What you describe here is exactly what I am experiencing. Seems like it happened after the last update also. Prior to that everything was great for close to 4 months (ever since I've had the S3). With so many people having the same issues, It just seems very hard to believe that it is hardware related or a bad drive. I know about the new partition with bad sectors issue, but this just seems highly coincidental that after the last update a lot of people are having this issue. 
As soon as I unplug my cable the menus are responsive again. When recording HD on both tuners things start to slow down and get choppy. If I tune to 2 analog channels everything is very fast etc. Then there are the reboots.... ugh.

I loved the S3 before and this is really starting to make me angry. Replacing the unit with a refurb is not the answer here.

Have you or anyone else reading this gotten any farther with Tivo on this?


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## Lmuggs

So I just got off the phone with TiVo and they are putting me on the list for a priority software update to 9.2. He said it would take 5-7 business days to appear. Hopefully that clears it up. If not then I'll do the swap out for a refurb unit. I'm hesitant to do that first becasue I just want to rule out the software first. 

I do think it's pretty crappy that they charge a $49.99 fee to do this and the unit is not even 4 months old. Don't most standard warranties run one year from the manufacturer? 

Fingers crossed on the new software update.


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## alyssa

I just had my S3 replaced due to to the HD failing and was charged $49.99 too. My unit is 10 months old. 
I just tried to reference my tivo manual's warranty page but it seems to be missing----as in pages 124-129 didn't make it into my manual.  

Regardless, the warranty is the standard, 90 Days Free Labor/One Year Parts Exchange. I looked at the $50 bucks as a bench fee.


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## Lmuggs

Ok. I successfully received the 9.2 update and that did not fix this issue by any means. I still don't want to get a refurbished replacement just yet and am considering using the money that I would spend on that to upgrade the HD in the S3.

Does anyone think that if I put a new HD in there the issues might go away (I'm assuming that there are errors on the drive now)? If not then it could be other hardware issues and I'll have no choice but to get the replacement. I just thought I would see if anyone had an opinion on this thought.

Thanks


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## Lmuggs

Ok, so I decided to install a 500GB Seagate DB35 and everything looks good so far. No lockups when tuned to HD channels and the menus are fast again. Let's hope it stays that way! The HD I replaced was only in use for just over 4 months. I wonder if UPS jostled the box around enough to cause damage to the original drive...

Anyhow.... as much as I didn't want to believe it was the drive, so far thats what it looks like it was.

Lmuggs


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## runtimelogic

Lmuggs said:


> Ok, so I decided to install a 500GB Seagate DB35 and everything looks good so far. No lockups when tuned to HD channels and the menus are fast again. Let's hope it stays that way! The HD I replaced was only in use for just over 4 months. I wonder if UPS jostled the box around enough to cause damage to the original drive...
> 
> Anyhow.... as much as I didn't want to believe it was the drive, so far thats what it looks like it was.
> 
> Lmuggs


Hi Lmuggs and all,

I've been having the same issue that you and at least 10 other people on this thread were having. I have a stock Series 3 with an early manufacture date and it was working flawlessly for the last 11 months. No eSata drive, no wireless adapter. A few days ago started to have the issues with menus being slow to respond or not responding at all, rebooting intermittently, and having choppy playback of signals on HD stations. I ran all 4 kickstart options (the re-download one turns out not to work and this has been indicated elsewhere on the forums I now know) and it had absolutely no effect. Unplugging the coax cable resolves the issues within a matter of seconds and recorded shows can be played back without issue.

One interesting thing to point out that I'm not sure that others explicitly stated is that HD shows that were recorded before the problem started occurring look fine on playback but shows that recorded after the problem began occurring are choppy / blocky. This indicates to me that the issue likely doesn't have to do with low level drive issues but instead problems with loading data into / flushing data from the buffer that the TiVo uses to buffer the live feed.

I understand that a valid argument against that is that the drive could have defects that are well constrained to a few sectors and those could be the ones to which disk buffering for live TV is occurring. In my past experience with drive failures where an operating system is being loaded off the drive, though, disk issues were always accompanied with some obvious issues with the OS (EX. menus not having the correct text, wrong or corrupted visual assets, or in more severe cases catastrophic system crashes or failure to boot at all). Because the unit operates flawlessly as soon as I remove the coax cable providing the live signal and exhibits none of these symptoms I have to say that this doesn't seem like a drive failure to me.

That's great that your replacement of the drive fixed the issue for you. I wonder if the problem has to do with a corruption of the system software that can occur in certain situations that effects the units ability to properly buffer large amounts of data. In replacing your drive with a new drive with a clean image of the system software that would have fixed that issue. Is everything still working well for you since the drive replacement?

How did you go about getting the TiVo software on the new drive? I haven't done that before and would be interested to know the best way to do so. It would be interesting to re-image my drive which is what most people seem to be implicating as the point of failure for this problem and see if that fixes it before replacing with a new drive. Has anyone tried that yet and can report back on your experience?

Great forums. Glad to be a new member of the community and thanks in advance for any help.


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## richsadams

runtimelogic said:


> Unplugging the coax cable resolves the issues within a matter of seconds and recorded shows can be played back without issue.


 Welcome to the forum!

I snipped the rest of your post as that one sentence is more than likely the key to your problems. If you can disconnect your coax cable and TiVo acts normally there are only a couple of possibilities.

One that has been reported many times is that the signal is being over driven, under driven or corrupted in some way. The usual list of suspects are the cable cards and/or incoming signal. A power interruption (surge/spike, blackout, etc.) can cause cable cards to have problems or they can fail on their own. They may need to be re-hit or one or both may need to be replaced.

A change to your incoming signal strength, particularly an overdriven signal can cause the same symptoms.

Lastly but usually unlikely is that TiVo's processor(s) are no longer able to process the signal.

The good news is that based on your post, it's not likely hard drive failure.

There are several threads on the subject, but one recent contribution is a good place to start and the #2 post outlines attenuation of a signal that's too "hot" (which IMO is what you're seeing):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5712377#post5712377

The thread discusses FIOS, but would be applicable to any signal issue.

The best bet is to measure your incoming signal as recommended on the thread and then deal with it accordingly. Your first step will probably be to contact your cable company and have them check everything out. Something has changed regarding your signal and you'll need to have them rectify it. Be armed with your specs and information as they will invariably say that your signal is fine when it's not.

Best of luck and keep us posted!


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## runtimelogic

Update: I've been testing the UI deadlock issues further and found that certain HD channels cause this problem while others do not. For example, HD programming on the local digital channels (the bottom of the 100 range for Comcast in Redmond, WA) can all be watched with no problem (at least for a few minutes, the duration of my test), while ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater and others show playback issues and the corresponding UI deadlock.

Further testing shows that in general HD channels that work without problems are broadcasting shows in 720p or below and the ones that cause immediate failure are broadcasting in 1080i (or better? I don't have a 1080p screen). I did find a couple programs that were broadcast in 1080i that didn't cause the problem. Perhaps these shows were using a lesser frame rate 1080i/25 instead of 1080i/30, or somehow their data rate was slower? This is definitely outside my area of knowledge so just speculation really, but it sure seems like shows with high data rates are causing the problem.


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## runtimelogic

Thanks Rich,

I'm looking into that now and I appreciate the link and suggestions.

What I don't understand is why the signal being too hot would cause the TiVo UI to lock up. In other words, if it turns out that this is the cause of the problem, I still think the Series 3 TiVo software has a bug that needs to be addressed: when the TiVo fails to process a digital signal coming in to it properly, it shouldn't allows all the processor resources to be consumed in an attempt to process this corrupt signal.

The results of my testing on signal strength / SNR using the diagnostics screen will be posted shortly.


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## runtimelogic

I'm seeing a Signal Strength of 90-100, a SNR of 34-36, and though I didn't see any RS Uncorrected the first time I went into the Diagnostics screen, I'm now seeing about 600 on one tuner and 700 on the other, but that is just from pulling the coax during the test below.

On Discovery HD Theater which is one known channel that consistently locks up the UI, I was able to tune to it and quickly get to the diagnostics screen, but never saw the RS Uncorrected increment while on the screen (it stayed at 0). When I tried the leave the diagnostics screen the UI had locked up and I had to pull the coax to get it to come back to life. I never did see a RS Uncorrected number like the FIOS pixellation thread mentions, nor see it update while in the Diagnostics screen.

I'm going to stop my testing for the night but will check back in the morning to figure out if I really should be contacting Comcast or TiVo about this. Maybe I'll see if I can pick up some coax attenuators locally first and get the SNR number in the range that fixes the FIOS pixellation problem and see if that fixes things.


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## richsadams

runtimelogic said:


> I'm seeing a Signal Strength of 90-100, a SNR of 34-36, and though I didn't see any RS Uncorrected the first time I went into the Diagnostics screen, I'm now seeing about 600 on one tuner and 700 on the other, but that is just from pulling the coax during the test below.
> 
> On Discovery HD Theater which is one known channel that consistently locks up the UI, I was able to tune to it and quickly get to the diagnostics screen, but never saw the RS Uncorrected increment while on the screen (it stayed at 0). When I tried the leave the diagnostics screen the UI had locked up and I had to pull the coax to get it to come back to life. I never did see a RS Uncorrected number like the FIOS pixellation thread mentions, nor see it update while in the Diagnostics screen.


Try not to over think this too much...it really won't get you anywhere. There are only a few things you can do personally to address this. If it turns out that it is TiVo your only option is to exchange it. Generally TiVo will do that with a $49 exchange fee.

You can call TiVo but my first call would be to the cableco and that's probably what TiVo will tell you to do. In a worst case situation they will agree to do a three-way call (you, your cableco and TiVo) to sort things out.

If you're experiencing severe problems on only some frequencies, HD in particular and if all things are equal in your household (no changes to your setup), it's much more likely that your signal has changed. I think you mentioned that you have SA cable cards? They are notorious for being problematic. (See many other threads here.)

If the signal is too strong you could try introducing a splitter (capping the unused leg) to attenuate the signal as a test. You might also want to try running a brand new, good quality RG6 coax cable from the outlet directly to TiVo to ensure that the signal is clean as well. Coax, in particular the fittings, can go bad but I dont think thats the issue here.

IIRC the specs to give the cableco tech should be somewhere around these numbers: Signal -10 to +10 dBmV but according to TiVo it should be even tighter, +3 - +6 dBmV. SNR of 31-32. (Your reading of 34 to 36 is on the highest end of the scale.) The cableco tech should be able to check that the incoming signal is within those tolerances and if not, add an attenuator or booster as needed. Once everything else is okay, RS Corrected and Uncorrected numbers should generally be 0 on both tuners.

We had problems with Comcast earlier this year as well. Three truck rolls and each tech (all different) said everything was "perfect"...often connecting one of their own DVR's and saying "See? The picture's great. Must be your TiVo." We knew it wasn't and on the fourth truck roll the tech left for about 20 minutes to work on the "head end"(?) and when he came back everything was indeed perfect. He said someone had made some "changes there" and that he fixed it. Hopefully you won't have to go through that.

Again, IMO if you've had a consistently good reception the problem is not with the TiVo, it's with the signal getting to the TiVo. Of course, YMMV.

I'm not an expert in this field and can only tell you what I and others here have experienced over the years and hope that it helps (or at least doesnt make things worse). I'll step back now and perhaps some other folks will chime in as well.


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## Lmuggs

Runtimelogic, sorry to hear you are experiencing problems with your S3. My Tivo has been working great since I replaced the drive (over a month now). I used weak knees boot disk to transfer the contents of my original drive to the replacement. It was surprisingly easy.

I thought my signal was too hot or corrupt also like Richsadams suggests. I did not want to believe it could be the drive. I called Comcast and they said everything was fine, had techs come out and bad mouth Tivo and say it must be an issue with my unit. They tested the line and did nothing to help. It took forever to get my cable cards paired correctly and authorized. I got lucky and was transferred to someone at Comcast that actually knew what they were talking about and admitted there was a difference between authorized and enabled by CP. 

So, I decided that because I eventually wanted a larger drive anyways and instead of paying $49 for a refurbished unit from Tivo, I would use that money towards the price of the new HD. If it didn't work then I could always use that drive in my PC. I'm glad it worked, I was truly at my wits end on this deal. BTW I got the drive online for about $150. It is designed for use in DVR units.

Hope you get it figured out. Good luck.


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## richsadams

Lmuggs said:


> Runtimelogic, sorry to hear you are experiencing problems with your S3. My Tivo has been working great since I replaced the drive (over a month now). I used weak knees boot disk to transfer the contents of my original drive to the replacement. It was surprisingly easy.
> 
> I thought my signal was too hot or corrupt also like Richsadams suggests. I did not want to believe it could be the drive. I called Comcast and they said everything was fine, had techs come out and bad mouth Tivo and say it must be an issue with my unit. They tested the line and did nothing to help. It took forever to get my cable cards paired correctly and authorized. I got lucky and was transferred to someone at Comcast that actually knew what they were talking about and admitted there was a difference between authorized and enabled by CP.
> 
> So, I decided that because I eventually wanted a larger drive anyways and instead of paying $49 for a refurbished unit from Tivo, I would use that money towards the price of the new HD. If it didn't work then I could always use that drive in my PC. I'm glad it worked, I was truly at my wits end on this deal. BTW I got the drive online for about $150.  It is designed for use in DVR units.
> 
> Hope you get it figured out. Good luck.


Good feedback. :up: Glad to hear that replacing your HDD solved the problems.

Based on *runtimelogic's *posts I'm still leaning toward a signal issue. Generally a HDD problem will manifest itself across the board. Since he's primarily reporting that things are fine w/o the coax attached and secondarily that he's seeing issues with particular channels/frequencies, it seems like there must be something up with his cable cards or the incoming signal overall. But you never know.

Enjoy your "new" TiVo!


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## bizzy

Without the cable attached, the tivo isn't writing two buffers to disk. Timeouts on those IO operations are what I believe caused my S3 to behave in a very similar way. Diagnosis was complicated for the first few hours because the problem was intermittent, but it eventually became consistent. Any IO operations would cause the UI to lock up as they were retried over and over (BTW sweet coding there, tivo)


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## richsadams

bizzy said:


> Without the cable attached, the tivo isn't writing two buffers to disk. Timeouts on those IO operations are what I believe caused my S3 to behave in a very similar way. Diagnosis was complicated for the first few hours because the problem was intermittent, but it eventually became consistent. Any IO operations would cause the UI to lock up as they were retried over and over (BTW sweet coding there, tivo)


Very good point. What did you do to remedy the problem? Or did you have to replace your S3?


----------



## bizzy

I had Tivo send me a replacement S3, since the dying one was still in its one-year warranty. Not much I could do about it aside from replacing the hard disk myself, either way I'd lose all my programs and season passes- I figured that I'd might as well let them deal with it.


----------



## richsadams

bizzy said:


> I had Tivo send me a replacement S3, since the dying one was still in its one-year warranty. Not much I could do about it aside from replacing the hard disk myself, either way I'd lose all my programs and season passes- I figured that I'd might as well let them deal with it.


Got it. Glad to hear things are better now. :up:


----------



## murrays

bizzy said:


> I had Tivo send me a replacement S3, since the dying one was still in its one-year warranty. Not much I could do about it aside from replacing the hard disk myself, either way I'd lose all my programs and season passes- I figured that I'd might as well let them deal with it.


My experience is buried earlier in the thread, but I'll mention here that I had very similar issues and got a replacement from TiVo that's been working fine since.

I suggest doing your own trouble shooting with and without cable cards, over the antenna, etc. This will speed things along when you give TiVo a call.

-murray


----------



## markens

Another data point: My S3 (which had been working flawlessly since I got it in April) suddenly developed the UI slowdown problem a week or two ago. After reading this thread I verified that it happened whenever either tuner was tuned to a digital channel with 780p or 1080i content. And, like others, removing the signal source caused the TiVo to resume normal function within 2-3 seconds. All symptoms were 100&#37; repeatable.

I do not use cable cards, so that was not a factor. HD content is from both OTA and clear-QAM cable, with same lockup scenario on both.

A call to support resulted in them shipping an exchange for the $49 fee. The very helpful CSR told me that this problem is known to happen "randomly." So hopefully they will be able to diagnose the underlying problem as they get more samples to examine.

The replacement is a refurb (manufactured 10/10/07) and everything is working correctly again. Yay! Total time from call to TiVo until replacement was installed and set up: 3 days. And one of those was a Sunday. So while I'm not particularly happy about the $49 fee since it seems to be a known problem, I am satisfied with the prompt resolution.


----------



## koensayr

Interesting. I was in DC on a business trip this past week. It seems that while I was away my TivoHD locked up causing me to miss several episodes of Cane, and such. In fact it seems to have missed my whole week since it was locked up.

Why is TiVO charging $49 for a replacement if its under warrenty? This sort of stuff happened with my S2 unit to. I guess when you buy a 'vo you figure you are going to be sending it back before it all works correctly.

Anyway, does anybody know if there is a firmware update for this? Or is this a hardware related issue?

Is the general advise then to either a) replace the unit or b) just upgrade the disk?

It seems if its an I/O issue, it could be the code, or the HDD controller. I'd be interested in a more detailed reasoning for the problem.

bizzy's and richsadams thoughts have perked my interesting... Though really I just want a working unit.


----------



## richsadams

koensayr said:


> Interesting. I was in DC on a business trip this past week. It seems that while I was away my TivoHD locked up causing me to miss several episodes of Cane, and such. In fact it seems to have missed my whole week since it was locked up.
> 
> Why is TiVO charging $49 for a replacement if its under warrenty? This sort of stuff happened with my S2 unit to. I guess when you buy a 'vo you figure you are going to be sending it back before it all works correctly.
> 
> Anyway, does anybody know if there is a firmware update for this? Or is this a hardware related issue?
> 
> Is the general advise then to either a) replace the unit or b) just upgrade the disk?
> 
> It seems if its an I/O issue, it could be the code, or the HDD controller. I'd be interested in a more detailed reasoning for the problem.
> 
> bizzy's and richsadams thoughts have perked my interesting... Though really I just want a working unit.


Sorry to hear that you're having trouble with your TiVo...very aggravating.

TiVo's are warranted for 90 day parts and labor and one year parts. After 90 days the $49 exchange fee is for labor and shipping. There are many reports on the forum of TiVo exchanging units two and three years old and older.

From the TiVo Warranty page:



> For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (including applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (including applicable taxes, if any).


IIRC we've had at least eight TiVo's over about eight years and have never had to replace any (or anything in them) due to a failure. With regard to HDD's they would average the industry standard for serviceability, although I'm sure the statistics would lean more toward server than home PC use as they run 24/7 in TiVo.

Software updates are released periodically. The most recent for the Series3 and TiVo HD is v9.2a which was distributed last month and early this month.

There are a number of things that can cause the problem you've described. It could be TiVo or a local issue (power interruption, surge, cableco, etc.) Without details your best bet is to contact TiVo Support, open a ticket and see what they recommend.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## eelton

I bought my S3 TiVo 355 days ago, so I suppose I need to decide what to do before the warranty runs out.

After 11 months of trouble-free operation, I've suddenly developed frequent spontaneous reboots, episodes of marked pixellation, and slow menus. I have an external Seagate DB35 500 GB drive, which I've been using for about six months. 

I'm not excited about losing all my recordings and starting over. Is there any way to distinguish a problem with the internal drive from an external drive issue? I downloaded Seagate's diagnostic utility to run on my external drive, although I haven't done it yet. Has anyone found disk utilities useful?

Also, have people who have received replacement TiVos been copying the contents from their old drive to the new? (I haven't done that since my series 1, but I assume it's still feasible with MFS Tools and the dd command, right?)


----------



## eelton

Well, for what it's worth, my external drive passed the tests. So, I think this is an internal drive problem. (I suspect the reason people see improvement when disconnecting the cable input is that the drive is less "taxed" by not having to record. That's in keeping with a greater problem when tuned to two HD stations, since the data transfer rate is greater.)

Now the question is whether to pay $49 for a replacement refurbished TiVo and have to to through setting everything up again, or just buying a new 250GB drive and copying everything over.


----------



## ccrider2

I have a stock unit, no ESATA, OTA only, using an HDMI connection.
I occasionally have to reboot (pull the cord) my S3 after powering-on my Sony SXRD. The Tivo just locks up, all I get on screen is black, today it was dark green. The remote doesn't function, the clock stops...dead! This started after I got the update that includes the external storage option. Before that, for about a month since I first bought it, it worked fine. I neglected to call Tivo about the problem, because I thought it cleared up for about 2 weeks, after I turned on the Sony's I-link power "standby option". But today it did it again. I don't know what I-link might have to do with HDMI, but it seemed to fix the lock-up problem. Or at least I thought it did! Now it's just occasionally locking up, instead of everyday, as it first did after the latest update.

Any ideas? 

Has anyone, having this problem, noticed that this seems to only happen after a service connection has been made without the TV turned ON? Or am I just seeing things? When it happens, it only happens when I first turn on the set for the day, and there has been a service connection through-out the night.

Also; what is a "VCM connection"? They happen every 2-3 hours. While the service connections take place every 26-30 hours.

Thanks Much!
Chris


----------



## eelton

Lmuggs said:


> Ok, so I decided to install a 500GB Seagate DB35 and everything looks good so far. No lockups when tuned to HD channels and the menus are fast again. Let's hope it stays that way! The HD I replaced was only in use for just over 4 months. I wonder if UPS jostled the box around enough to cause damage to the original drive...
> 
> Anyhow.... as much as I didn't want to believe it was the drive, so far thats what it looks like it was.
> 
> Lmuggs


I decided to replace my drive as well, as I'm pretty convinced it's a hard drive problem (having had drives fail on more than one past TiVo). To me, it seemed to be too much of a hassle to pay $49 for a refurb unit, lose all my settings, and probably have to have a visit by the cable guy to get the cablecards working in the new unit.

Since I don't know which drive (internal or external) is failing, I'll start with just the new [internal] drive. If that works OK, maybe I'll add the external drive back into the mix.


----------



## runtimelogic

Hi Rich and all,

Just wanted to update this thread on where my issue stands. Since last posting I pursued troubleshooting for signal issues (IE. a signal that is too "hot" and is overdriving the Series 3), but at this point I'm pretty well convinced that is not the problem.

- Obtained an assortment of inline coax attenuators and followed the directions from the other thread that was linked on FiOS signal issues, and saw no change in the lock-up behavior.

- Had Comcast out to test my signal and CableCards and they said everything was operating normally.



> Without the cable attached, the tivo isn't writing two buffers to disk. Timeouts on those IO operations are what I believe caused my S3 to behave in a very similar way.


This is a great point bizzy, and the failure does seem to exist somewhere in the process of receiving the signal, processing it digitally, or buffering it to disk. It sounds like Lmuggs was having the same problem and a new hard drive resolved it. I kind of wonder if it's not that these drives are failing in the traditional "bad-sectors", "crashed read/write heads" way, because I'm not seeing any anomalies aside from problems with high data rates. Rather, some kind of data bus / filesystem software timeout issue that only manifests with certain models of OEM drives may be the cause. In that scenario, the problem could have been introduced by TiVo in the 9.2a software update, which is around the time my problems began.

I know you said not to overthink things Rich, but this is an intriguing problem to me as a software engineer, and I'm just kind of enjoying the challenge of trying to diagnose this problem for TiVo since the feedback from their techs seems to indicate they just think this happens "randomly" which is another way to say they haven't figured it out yet.

Of course, the fact that it sounds like I'll be exchanging my otherwise functional unit and have to pay $50 is pretty inconvenient and not so enjoyable. Time to go call TiVo and get the exchange process started. I'd really LIKE to change out the drive myself since the added capacity would be nice and I'd like to see if that fixes things, but on the off chance that this is a problem with the data bus hardware itself, I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone at the expense of not really knowing if it was a problem that could have been resolved with a drive replacement.


----------



## runtimelogic

I talked to TiVo tech support and the tech said he thinks it is either a failure of the cable cards or a problem with the DVR unit itself. I asked him if he agreed that it was unlikely that both cable cards would fail simultaneously and he sort of agreed but still recommended I have Comcast replace them since it would be best to rule that out, but he said they could swap the unit if that's what I wanted.

I really don't think it's the cable cards but I can't be certain of course (though Comcast did indicate they were operating normally when they came out a couple days ago). I'd rather not waste any more time before getting the replacement unit shipped so I was thinking about just going ahead with that. Should I just go ahead and do the swap? What do you guys think?


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## murrays

runtimelogic said:


> I talked to TiVo tech support and the tech said he thinks it is either a failure of the cable cards or a problem with the DVR unit itself. I asked him if he agreed that it was unlikely that both cable cards would fail simultaneously and he sort of agreed but still recommended I have Comcast replace them since it would be best to rule that out, but he said they could swap the unit if that's what I wanted.
> 
> I really don't think it's the cable cards but I can't be certain of course (though Comcast did indicate they were operating normally when they came out a couple days ago). I'd rather not waste any more time before getting the replacement unit shipped so I was thinking about just going ahead with that. Should I just go ahead and do the swap? What do you guys think?


Try taking the cable cards out, stick up some rabbit ears and see if the issue occurs with OTA HD channels. It'll save you a lot of unnecessary hassle with the cable co changing cards.

-murray


----------



## richsadams

ccrider2 said:


> I have a stock unit, no ESATA, OTA only, using an HDMI connection.
> I occasionally have to reboot (pull the cord) my S3 after powering-on my Sony SXRD. The Tivo just locks up, all I get on screen is black, today it was dark green. The remote doesn't function, the clock stops...dead! This started after I got the update that includes the external storage option. Before that, for about a month since I first bought it, it worked fine. I neglected to call Tivo about the problem, because I thought it cleared up for about 2 weeks, after I turned on the Sony's I-link power "standby option". But today it did it again. I don't know what I-link might have to do with HDMI, but it seemed to fix the lock-up problem. Or at least I thought it did! Now it's just occasionally locking up, instead of everyday, as it first did after the latest update.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Has anyone, having this problem, noticed that this seems to only happen after a service connection has been made without the TV turned ON? Or am I just seeing things? When it happens, it only happens when I first turn on the set for the day, and there has been a service connection through-out the night.
> 
> Also; what is a "VCM connection"? They happen every 2-3 hours. While the service connections take place every 26-30 hours.
> 
> Thanks Much!
> Chris


If you want to spend some time searching the forum you'll find all sorts of posts about Sony TV's and TiVo not playing nice for various reasons.

Generally a quick fix is to switch from HDMI (thus avoiding the HDCP handshake) to Component (YPbPr) video and optical (TOSlink) audio through your receiver if you can or composite audio to your Sony.

Others have had success with a new, quality (but not overly expensive) HDMI cable.

There's something about some Sony TV's (possibly their firmware, connections, HDCP handshake, etc.) that gives TiVo fits so you're not alone.

Hope that helps, but do a bit of searching and you'll find more.


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## richsadams

runtimelogic said:


> Of course, the fact that it sounds like I'll be exchanging my otherwise functional unit and have to pay $50 is pretty inconvenient and not so enjoyable. Time to go call TiVo and get the exchange process started. I'd really LIKE to change out the drive myself since the added capacity would be nice and I'd like to see if that fixes things, but on the off chance that this is a problem with the data bus hardware itself, I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone at the expense of not really knowing if it was a problem that could have been resolved with a drive replacement.


That's probably a good way to go...replace the box, then you can still upgrade the drive once you're certain everything is okay. :up:


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## ccrider2

richsadams said:


> If you want to spend some time searching the forum you'll find all sorts of posts about Sony TV's and TiVo not playing nice for various reasons.


Yea, I've seen a few, but none that exhibit my intermittent unit lock-up. Perhaps they are also having a random lock-up problem, but just not expressing that they are. Or I've missed something.... Boolean searches don't seem to work right on the forum, or I'm not doing something right.



richsadams said:


> Generally a quick fix is to switch from HDMI (thus avoiding the HDCP handshake) to Component (YPbPr) video and optical (TOSlink) audio through your receiver if you can or composite audio to your Sony.


I only have one composite input free...hate to move my DVD player to it to free-up a component input. Besides I've read somewhere that this doesn't fix the problem either. I guess I could try that as a temporary connection, to see if it's an HDMI problem or not. Maybe it will work in my case.



richsadams said:


> Others have had success with a new, quality (but not overly expensive) HDMI cable.


I'm using the HDMI cable that came with the Tivo. Can you recommend a cable (brand and model #) that has helped others? I guess I could always use a spare, if it don't help.



richsadams said:


> There's something about some Sony TV's (possibly their firmware, connections, HDCP handshake, etc.) that gives TiVo fits so you're not alone.


It's just strange... I never had a problem for the first 5 weeks of ownership...just after the 9.2a update. I hope Tivo will fix this problem. What's a person supposed to do? Buy new TV hardware every time they update their firmware.

Thank You For Your Time,

Chris


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## runtimelogic

murrays said:


> Try taking the cable cards out, stick up some rabbit ears and see if the issue occurs with OTA HD channels. It'll save you a lot of unnecessary hassle with the cable co changing cards.
> 
> -murray


Good idea. I did this and can still repro the problem. I'm calling TiVo in the morning to start the cross-ship of a replacement unit.


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## richsadams

ccrider2 said:


> Yea, I've seen a few, but none that exhibit my intermittent unit lock-up. Perhaps they are also having a random lock-up problem, but just not expressing that they are. Or I've missed something.... Boolean searches don't seem to work right on the forum, or I'm not doing something right.
> 
> I only have one composite input free...hate to move my DVD player to it to free-up a component input. Besides I've read somewhere that this doesn't fix the problem either. I guess I could try that as a temporary connection, to see if it's an HDMI problem or not. Maybe it will work in my case.
> 
> I'm using the HDMI cable that came with the Tivo. Can you recommend a cable (brand and model #) that has helped others? I guess I could always use a spare, if it don't help.
> 
> It's just strange... I never had a problem for the first 5 weeks of ownership...just after the 9.2a update. I hope Tivo will fix this problem. What's a person supposed to do? Buy new TV hardware every time they update their firmware.
> 
> Thank You for Your Time,
> 
> Chris


Hi Chirs. When you say composite do you mean component? Composite connections are the basic RCA red/white/yellow. Component connections are the red/blue/green (video only). Trying the component connection may fix things.

IIRC there have been more than a couple of reports of TiVo supplied HDMI cables not working well...but it's been a few months since I saw a complaint.

A good HDMI cable like this one should work fine.


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## ccrider2

richsadams said:


> Hi Chirs. When you say composite do you mean component? Composite connections are the basic RCA red/white/yellow. Component connections are the red/blue/green (video only). Trying the component connection may fix things.


No, what I mean to say....I would hate to remove my DVD player in order to use the TiVo on component. The DVD is an older model...no HDMI connector. Only component, S-Video or composite are on the DVD player.



richsadams said:


> IIRC there have been more than a couple of reports of TiVo supplied HDMI cables not working well...but it's been a few months since I saw a complaint.
> 
> A good HDMI cable like this one should work fine.


Thank's for the info...I'll give that cable a try.

Chris


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## krwilkins

I&#8217;ve had the same lock-up problem and my S3 is frozen on the Tivo screen with Now Playing highlighted.

I tried rebooting, Kickstart 57, and unplugging the coax cable, none of that worked or changed the lock-up in any way.

I popped out both cable cards and rebooted. This brought me to a cable card screen showing both slots empty, and I now have control of the Tivo again. In fact, I can go to my recorded shows and play them. I put the cable cards back in and rebooted, the lock-up problem returned.

Is there something I can do on the cable card menu to get back up and running? Do I need to call Comcast? I&#8217;ve been avoiding that if there is any way at all for me to fix this.

Thanks for any advice you can offer. I love my Tivo and we miss each other.

Ken


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## jcflys

Well add another one to the list. I have had the exact same issues as everyone else is reporting with S3 HD and cable cards. My number one card works fine, but number two cause all the major lock ups and freezes. I had to get the Tivo replaced and they charged me the 49 fee. After reading this board, I called and complained letting them know about this thread in which there are 6 pages of people having the exact same issue and that this was not a specific problem to my box, but to an entire sub-section on the S3. The guy agreed with me and my 49 was refunded.


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## richsadams

krwilkins said:


> Ive had the same lock-up problem and my S3 is frozen on the Tivo screen with Now Playing highlighted.
> 
> I tried rebooting, Kickstart 57, and unplugging the coax cable, none of that worked or changed the lock-up in any way.
> 
> I popped out both cable cards and rebooted. This brought me to a cable card screen showing both slots empty, and I now have control of the Tivo again. In fact, I can go to my recorded shows and play them. I put the cable cards back in and rebooted, the lock-up problem returned.
> 
> Is there something I can do on the cable card menu to get back up and running? Do I need to call Comcast? Ive been avoiding that if there is any way at all for me to fix this.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer. I love my Tivo and we miss each other.
> 
> Ken


Sounds very much like your cable cards tanked for some reason. Power failures, surges, etc. can cause them problems, but if Comcast was working in your area they could have fouled things up as well.

Give Comcast a call and ask them to bring new cable cards. Ask them if they can bring several just in case.


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## eelton

jcflys said:


> My number one card works fine, but number two cause all the major lock ups and freezes.





richsadams said:


> Sounds very much like your cable cards tanked for some reason.


Or it's that removing the cable cards removes the need to record HD streams, so that the capabilities of a failing hard drive aren't exceeded.

I find that when I tune both tuners to SD channels, things function fine. If I tune one tuner to HD, I eventually get lockups and reboots. If I tune both to HD, that happens almost immediately.

My replacement drive arrived yesterday. I'm transferring my recordings that I want to save over to my desktop. I'll replace the drive tomorrow or Saturday and I'll report whether that fixes the problem.


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## eelton

Well, I can now report success with replacing my hard drive.

I had the 250GB OEM internal drive and a 500GB external eSATA drive. I first tried divorcing the external drive, thinking that may have been the problem. The result was extremely choppy performance--even the background animations weren't displaying properly, and the TiVo quickly rebooted.

I then replaced the internal drive with a new 750GB WD drive ($149 shipped from Newegg). Everything is now working as it should. I tried the "stress test" of tuning both tuners to HD channels and playing back a program, and it worked perfectly.

So, at least in my case, the issue was a failing internal hard drive. I think chasing after cable card issues and signal strength issues is going to be fruitless. This is in keeping with my past experiences, which tell me that when a TiVo stops working, it's almost always a hard drive problem.


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## runtimelogic

Just to update on my situation, I received a replacement Series 3 unit and swapped it out for my old unit on the 25th, moving the same cable cards from the old unit to the new. It's working fine and I can tune to two HD channels now without any UI slowdown or lockup problems.

I did notice that the replacement unit supplied by TiVo is only patched to software version 8.0, which I found a little strange. I'd like to make sure this is patched to the latest version (9.2a I believe) and make sure everything is behaving properly before I send back the old unit. Do I have to call TiVo to have them put me on a priority list for updates or something?

The other thing that was kind of annoying with how they managed this process is that as soon as they started the swap, they deactivated service on my old unit and activated the new one, which they hadn't event shipped out yet. I got the sense that this caused the old unit to stop getting updated programming information, and that I may have missed a few shows during the week+ it took to get the replacement unit. The other problem with this is that I wanted to use my TiVoToGo software to copy any shows to my computer before swapping in the new Series 3 unit, but this software can no longer see a deactivated unit. I tried calling TiVo to see if they could temporarily reactivate the old unit until I returned it to them, and after some haggling they said they could activate it using a 5 day temporary activation. After forcing a connection and rebooting I was able to see that the status changed to "internal testing" or something like that, but it made no difference in my ability to see the unit and copy files via TiVoToGo, so I just decided to watch as many shows as I possibly could and just gave up on viewing the rest.


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## richsadams

runtimelogic said:


> Just to update on my situation, I received a replacement Series 3 unit and swapped it out for my old unit on the 25th, moving the same cable cards from the old unit to the new. It's working fine and I can tune to two HD channels now without any UI slowdown or lockup problems.
> 
> I did notice that the replacement unit supplied by TiVo is only patched to software version 8.0, which I found a little strange. I'd like to make sure this is patched to the latest version (9.2a I believe) and make sure everything is behaving properly before I send back the old unit. Do I have to call TiVo to have them put me on a priority list for updates or something?
> 
> The other thing that was kind of annoying with how they managed this process is that as soon as they started the swap, they deactivated service on my old unit and activated the new one, which they hadn't event shipped out yet. I got the sense that this caused the old unit to stop getting updated programming information, and that I may have missed a few shows during the week+ it took to get the replacement unit. The other problem with this is that I wanted to use my TiVoToGo software to copy any shows to my computer before swapping in the new Series 3 unit, but this software can no longer see a deactivated unit. I tried calling TiVo to see if they could temporarily reactivate the old unit until I returned it to them, and after some haggling they said they could activate it using a 5 day temporary activation. After forcing a connection and rebooting I was able to see that the status changed to "internal testing" or something like that, but it made no difference in my ability to see the unit and copy files via TiVoToGo, so I just decided to watch as many shows as I possibly could and just gave up on viewing the rest.


Glad to hear things are back to normal now. :up:

TiVo will automatically download the latest software and install it overnight. If you want to force a connection you can in the Phone and Network Settings menu. It may take 24 to 48 hours as it runs the setup as a priority to get all of your channel listings first. Once the upgrade has downloaded TiVo will install it at 2 a.m. your time or you can reboot it and it will install it immediately.

It doesn't seem right that they deactivated your old box right away...you should have been able to use it until the new one arrived and just switched the TSN when you were ready. 

Anyway, enjoy!


----------



## markens

runtimelogic said:


> The other thing that was kind of annoying with how they managed this process is that as soon as they started the swap, they deactivated service on my old unit and activated the new one, which they hadn't event shipped out yet.


This happened to me, too. I imagine they do this for swaps since most of the time the unit being returned is dead, and this makes it easier for the customer to bring up the replacement.

Like you, I was not done transferring programs I wanted to save to my PC. I called customer support and asked to have my account changed back to the old service number so I could continue to use it until the replacement arrived. They did this immediately, and I was able to continue using TTG within 20-30 minutes. Once the replacement arrived and I was ready to switch over to it, I was able to update the service number myself online back to the new unit (in "Manage My Account") and then run guided setup. All worked fine.


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## acc10x

two nights ago i started experiencing the same probs people described in this thread with my S3, which is only 10 months old. came online and found this thread (thankfully!), disconnected the coax and voila! fast as lightning. plug the coax back in, and when i wind up with both tuners on HD channels things get choppy then freeze; menu may/not load, and then very sluggishly, and sometimes not completely. box randomly reboots itself.

undid the coax, tried kickstart 57, same issues. called tivo support yesterday and walked through popping out the cable cards -- same issues. told the rep about this thread and how a number of other people had been experience the exact same issue for the past few months, and _he_ said he'd heard of a couple of similar issues. agreed that it is probably hardware or software related, and not cable related, but agreed to get a replacement set of cable cards to be sure, and if that didn't work we'd swap the box (with him agreeing to wave the $49 fee because i mentioned this thread).

this morning went to the local comcast office and got a pair of replacement cards. came home, phoned comcast up to re-pair. same problems.

rang tivo up, mentioned the case number and some "supervisor" named jared wanted to walk through the same steps the previous rep had, not being convinced that it was a tivo box issue. this went round for a few minutes with me being agitated that i was asking to jump through the same hoops whose results were already known. then jared wanted the serial numbers of the new cable cards, suggesting that it was a cable card issue and not tivo related, with some golly gee spiel about how cable cards were new technology that no one really had a grasp of (thanks for the vote of confidence in your product tivo/jared!). i asked him what difference that would make considering i no longer had the cable cards that were originally in the box (having replaced them this morning), and that writing down only the new cards' s/n's didn't seem like a very logical troubleshooting step.

things went around for awhile longer, and i was getting miffed to the point of almost shouting at his inanity in wanting to keep walking the same circles. i finally told him that i wasn't calling to troubleshoot my box, but was following up from the first call, where it was determined it was a tivo issue, and wanted to replace my box -- again referencing this thread and the fact the the first rep had heard of similar issues, and again saying that while i couldn't definitely say if it was hardware or software it definitely wasn't the cable or cable cards and was something with the box itself. (btw, i also have an S2 and that has had zero issues during this.)

jared got the return rolling, agreed (again) to waive the $49 fee, said that they would have to charge a credit card for "retail" value of the tivo until they received my box, and then said that _i_ would have to pay for return shipping. the "retail" charge was $799 -- which is outrageous considering that even on tivo's site an S3 is listed retail at $599. and i absolutely could not believe they wanted me to pay to ship _their_ defective product back. "we're meeting you halfway with the shipping," the rep said. "no, _i'm_ being stuck meeting _you_ halfway with the shipping in order to send _your_ defective product back!"

UNBELIEVABLE.

the phone call ended with jared saying "thanks for choosing tivo" and me wondering what there is to be thankful about regarding this experience.

apologies for venting at length -- i'm still fresh from the phone call. i've been a tivo enthusiast for a number of years, and when their products work it's a beautiful world. but i wanted to point out to any tivo employees reading this that you have an established issue here. quit yanking your paying customers around over it when it happens to them and/or otherwise blame things that aren't at fault (as far as we know). charging $200 over the real "retail" price for a swap is very, _very_ poor customer service; as is forcing the customer to pay for return shipping to ship _your_ defective product back to you. you're not meeting me halfway -- i have no choice, and as a result i'm meeting you halfway.

and all this still doesn't guarantee that the replacement box won't start misbehaving as well. joy.


----------



## richsadams

Just as an FYI for anyone else, the Kickstart diagnostics are only designed to address hard drive issues. If TiVo is running fine w/o cable cards and/or a coax connection it is a cable card, cable or TiVo hardware issue and the KS procedures will not be beneficial.


----------



## acc10x

richsadams said:


> Just as an FYI for anyone else, the Kickstart diagnostics are only designed to address hard drive issues. If TiVo is running fine w/o cable cards and/or a coax connection it is a cable card, cable or TiVo hardware issue and the KS procedures will not be beneficial.


i figured as much but thought there would be no harm in turning that stone over.

also, my S3 runs fine with the cable cards in -- it's just when the coax is connected and both tuners are on HD channels. digital channels fine, but HD appears to be the culprit that sets this off.

checking the tuner diagnostics, each one has over 97% signal and 35-36 snr.


----------



## richsadams

acc10x said:


> i figured as much but thought there would be no harm in turning that stone over.
> 
> also, my S3 runs fine with the cable cards in -- it's just when the coax is connected. i guess the reverse of that is true as well. basically, when i'm not getting HD channels on both tuners (either through manual tuning, or w/o cable cards or coax hooked up) is when the problems occur.
> 
> checking the tuner diagnostics, each one has over 97% signal and 35-36 snr.


Frustrating situation. There's a possibility that your signal is too hot...cableco's seem to think that more is better. IIRC the recommend signal strength should be -10 to +10 dBmV with a SNR of 31-32. The signal strength would have to be measured by the cableco tech who should be putting a device on the line at the TiVo connection point to measure the signal. I know when the SNR goes over 35 on ours (particularly with the local NBC HD station) I get some tiling/macroblocking periodically. I haven't tried the attenuation that seems to work for others. Did you try adding any attenuators? More on this thread and a link to a pack of attenuators here.

Also, we have Motorola cable cards which seem to do much better than the Scientific Atlanta CC's. TiVo's sensitivity/processing of incoming signals is certainly delicate.


----------



## bluelinex

I have been having slow down & lock up problems on & off for about 3 to 4 weeks now & after paying a good amount of cash for this service I'm starting to think it may not be worth the money. I love TIVO when it's working right but for $600+ I have the right to expect it to work right ALL THE TIME!!
Try puting the TIVO in stand by mode when not in use. So far the slow down & lock up problems have not returned when I do this, but knowing how bugy this thing is that may change at any time. Instead of having a stand alone box TIVO & the cable companies should build a box together.


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## acc10x

richsadams said:


> Frustrating situation. There's a possibility that your signal is too hot...cableco's seem to think that more is better. IIRC the recommend signal strength should be -10 to +10 dBmV with a SNR of 31-32. The signal strength would have to be measured by the cableco tech who should be putting a device on the line at the TiVo connection point to measure the signal. I know when the SNR goes over 35 on ours (particularly with the local NBC HD station) I get some tiling/macroblocking periodically. I haven't tried the attenuation that seems to work for others. Did you try adding any attenuators? More on this thread and a link to a pack of attenuators here.
> 
> Also, we have Motorola cable cards which seem to do much better than the Scientific Atlanta CC's. TiVo's sensitivity/processing of incoming signals is certainly delicate.


i saw the attenuator link when i first read the thread and my plan is to order a pack, which should hopefully arrive about the same time as the replacement tivo. good to know ~32 is the sweet spot!

all my cable cards to date have been motorola s-cards with the earth/globe (think it's blue) on the top.

also, had to edit my last post 'cause it didn't make sense (at least to me). problem seems to exclusively happen when both tuners are on HD channels. digital and analog channels are fine, but when both are on HD digital: kaboom. not just the picture freezing up, but the menu, response to remote buttons... everything.

worried that replacement the unit won't fix things, as it appears to be something either software or hardware related that is also happening to others, but i really didn't have much recourse as nothing else worked (sans having yet to try the attenuators). right now i have the coax unplugged and i'm recording non-hd shows on my S2 and mrv'ing them to the s3 (as that's got the better a/v and seating setup). really. sucks.


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## mdobbins

I had constant rebooting and freezing of my Series 3 TiVo beginning mid-January. I tried multiple things (including the attenuators), and the only way to stop the behavior was to pull the cable feed.

I replaced the internal hard disk this past weekend and my TiVo is back to normal behavior. I reattached my eSATA expansion drive and I'm back to 165 hours of HD goodness  !


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## bizzy

I think that this is the first confirmation that the problem is in fact a failing hard drive.


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## richsadams

bizzy said:


> I think that this is the first confirmation that the problem is in fact a failing hard drive.


At least in this case. There are so many variables and an equal number of "fixes" to go with them. The process of elimination can be very frustrating, but rewarding when a solution is discovered. :up:


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## bizzy

Well, this seems to be the first fix that doesn't involve replacing the S3 

I always did suspect that the problem was the Tivo blocking on IO that the disk kept retrying, since it was failing.


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## mdobbins

bizzy said:


> Well, this seems to be the first fix that doesn't involve replacing the S3
> 
> I always did suspect that the problem was the Tivo blocking on IO that the disk kept retrying, since it was failing.


That was my reasoning also - the macroblocking / pixellation I observed when I had the cable feed attached was either an IO problem or a bad HD tuner.

As I stated in the random rebooting thread:

For me, it has been 6 days of glitch-free operation with the replaced internal hard disk. I did copy the old drive to the new drive using WinMFS Beta Build 8- OS and all. My TiVo with new hard disk is running version 9.2a of the software since that was the version on my old internal hard disk. Prior to using WinMFS and doing the swap, however, I transferred all of my recordings to a hard drive attached to my PC using TiVo Desktop and I did a "Clear and Delete" of the original hard disk. I had to add all of my season passes back manually after the switch because of the "Clear and Delete", but it was a small price to pay for me to have a working, usable, non-pixellating, non-rebooting, HD channel viewable TiVo Series 3 again!

FWIW, I replaced the internal WD 250Gb drive with a Seagate 250Gb drive I found on eBay for $40 shipped. My eSATA expansion is a 2x750Gb RAID box, so I didn't really need to go "big" drive internally. I was trying to keep the repair cost as low as possible since my unit has been in use more than a year - and "She Who Must Be Obeyed" decreed that cost was a factor!


----------



## bizzy

Fascinating. Did you have any problems with the original disk when doing the TTG transfers or copying the OS to your replacement?


----------



## mdobbins

bizzy said:


> Fascinating. Did you have any problems with the original disk when doing the TTG transfers or copying the OS to your replacement?


Nope. I did the transfer (84Gb of data) without the cable feed attached and that took quite awhile over my powerline network - but I didn't encounter any hiccups, glitches, etc. The OS copy (SATA --> SATA) literally took less than 5 minutes and probably more like 2-3 minutes (I wasn't timing it).


----------



## acc10x

acc10x said:


> two nights ago i started experiencing the same probs people described in this thread with my S3, which is only 10 months old. came online and found this thread (thankfully!), disconnected the coax and voila! fast as lightning. plug the coax back in, and when i wind up with both tuners on HD channels things get choppy then freeze; menu may/not load, and then very sluggishly, and sometimes not completely. box randomly reboots itself.
> 
> undid the coax, tried kickstart 57, same issues. called tivo support yesterday and walked through popping out the cable cards -- same issues. told the rep about this thread and how a number of other people had been experience the exact same issue for the past few months, and _he_ said he'd heard of a couple of similar issues. agreed that it is probably hardware or software related, and not cable related, but agreed to get a replacement set of cable cards to be sure, and if that didn't work we'd swap the box (with him agreeing to wave the $49 fee because i mentioned this thread).
> 
> this morning went to the local comcast office and got a pair of replacement cards. came home, phoned comcast up to re-pair. same problems.
> 
> rang tivo up, mentioned the case number and some "supervisor" named jared wanted to walk through the same steps the previous rep had, not being convinced that it was a tivo box issue. this went round for a few minutes with me being agitated that i was asking to jump through the same hoops whose results were already known. then jared wanted the serial numbers of the new cable cards, suggesting that it was a cable card issue and not tivo related, with some golly gee spiel about how cable cards were new technology that no one really had a grasp of (thanks for the vote of confidence in your product tivo/jared!). i asked him what difference that would make considering i no longer had the cable cards that were originally in the box (having replaced them this morning), and that writing down only the new cards' s/n's didn't seem like a very logical troubleshooting step.
> 
> things went around for awhile longer, and i was getting miffed to the point of almost shouting at his inanity in wanting to keep walking the same circles. i finally told him that i wasn't calling to troubleshoot my box, but was following up from the first call, where it was determined it was a tivo issue, and wanted to replace my box -- again referencing this thread and the fact the the first rep had heard of similar issues, and again saying that while i couldn't definitely say if it was hardware or software it definitely wasn't the cable or cable cards and was something with the box itself. (btw, i also have an S2 and that has had zero issues during this.)
> 
> jared got the return rolling, agreed (again) to waive the $49 fee, said that they would have to charge a credit card for "retail" value of the tivo until they received my box, and then said that _i_ would have to pay for return shipping. the "retail" charge was $799 -- which is outrageous considering that even on tivo's site an S3 is listed retail at $599. and i absolutely could not believe they wanted me to pay to ship _their_ defective product back. "we're meeting you halfway with the shipping," the rep said. "no, _i'm_ being stuck meeting _you_ halfway with the shipping in order to send _your_ defective product back!"
> 
> UNBELIEVABLE.
> 
> the phone call ended with jared saying "thanks for choosing tivo" and me wondering what there is to be thankful about regarding this experience.
> 
> apologies for venting at length -- i'm still fresh from the phone call. i've been a tivo enthusiast for a number of years, and when their products work it's a beautiful world. but i wanted to point out to any tivo employees reading this that you have an established issue here. quit yanking your paying customers around over it when it happens to them and/or otherwise blame things that aren't at fault (as far as we know). charging $200 over the real "retail" price for a swap is very, _very_ poor customer service; as is forcing the customer to pay for return shipping to ship _your_ defective product back to you. you're not meeting me halfway -- i have no choice, and as a result i'm meeting you halfway.
> 
> and all this still doesn't guarantee that the replacement box won't start misbehaving as well. joy.


i finally received my replacement S3 yesterday, after tivo mistakenly but down the p.o. box i use for the billing addy of my credit card they put the $700 hold on as the shipping address even though the tech i spoke with confirmed the shipping address was my house addy before hanging up. GRRR! (not to mention that UPS, realizing they had a p.o. box addy, tried to deliver it to a previous address of mine!)

after getting that finally sorted the box arrived. switched the activation over to the new box and rang up comcast seattle to re-pair the cable cards. the lady i spoke to was very nice but after hearing someone whispering in her ear over the phone she proceded to tell me that comcast would have to charge me an add'l $6/month "additional digital outlet fee" for the tivo box. "no, you aren't," i said. "i have comcast stb as part of my account, and according to your rate card i get one cable card free of charge and the second at $1.50/month. you're confusing the add'l outlet as me having an add'l stb box, which i don't. cable is coming in through one outlet: period." this went around for several minutes and, honestly, i don't know how folks who aren't very much in the know about how things should be working, billed, etc., get through all this, but i finally convinced her to first finish pairing the cards and then we could talk more about the add'l charge she wanted to tack on.

so we spend 20min verifying that both cards work, during the time i go on at legnth to detail my S3 story. after it was all done she appeared to forget about trying to charge me the add'l outlet fee, which is what i hoped would happen, asked if there was anything else to which i quickly replied NOPE! and we both hung up.

watching the replaced box last night there doesn't (yet) seem to be any more issues with HD channels freezing things and up/or otherwise forcing reboots. which is good... and hopefully is the end of things. knock on wood, salt over shoulder, prayers to any listening gods.

(also posting this over on this thread.)


----------



## accobra

I just finished reading this thread. I really have to say every time I have a question this forum has addressed it. My Series 3 started stuttering/pixilation on HD channels over the weekend. I have had it for 13 months. After reading this forum and have Time Warner come check the cable line I came to the conclusion I too seem to have a hard drive that is failing. So I went out and bought a new Western Digital 500 Gig drive and used WinMFS to copy the core TiVo OS (no recordings) from the existing drive to the new drive. Sure enough it fixed the problem. Thanks you everyone!


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## AshmiNYC

Am reading all the posts here about lockups and rebooting S3 Tivos, and am wondering if someone knows if you can run one without having the Coax cable plugged in. I'm having the exact same problem that everyone is describing (sans external Hard Drive), and it seems to still exist with my replacement box. Had Time Warner here on Saturday, and after 8 cards failed to fix the problem, they said it was the box. Fortunately, Tivo replaced it for me without cost ($800 deposit till old box goes back) but already tonight I saw a hint of it again on the new box. If the box is new, I'm guessing it could be that the signal is too strong for the Tivo, and want to take out the coax. Thoughts?


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## richsadams

accobra said:


> I just finished reading this thread. I really have to say every time I have a question this forum has addressed it. My Series 3 started stuttering/pixilation on HD channels over the weekend. I have had it for 13 months. After reading this forum and have Time Warner come check the cable line I came to the conclusion I too seem to have a hard drive that is failing. So I went out and bought a new Western Digital 500 Gig drive and used WinMFS to copy the core TiVo OS (no recordings) from the existing drive to the new drive. Sure enough it fixed the problem. Thanks you everyone!


Sweet! :up:


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## richsadams

AshmiNYC said:


> Am reading all the posts here about lockups and rebooting S3 Tivos, and am wondering if someone knows if you can run one without having the Coax cable plugged in. I'm having the exact same problem that everyone is describing (sans external Hard Drive), and it seems to still exist with my replacement box. Had Time Warner here on Saturday, and after 8 cards failed to fix the problem, they said it was the box. Fortunately, Tivo replaced it for me without cost ($800 deposit till old box goes back) but already tonight I saw a hint of it again on the new box. If the box is new, I'm guessing it could be that the signal is too strong for the Tivo, and want to take out the coax. Thoughts?


I'm not sure what you mean by "taking out the coax".  If it runs fine without the coax cable attached you're probably right, the signal may be too strong. Often times cableco's will simply continue to boost the signal to try and fix things. Too strong a signal is as bad as too weak a signal for TiVo.

This thread was started regarding FIOS signal strength which is often too hot and how to remedy it with attenuators. You might have a read and invest in some attenuators (IIRC a package of a dozen costs less than $10).

If you mean can you disconnect your TW coax cable and attach an external antenna, yes, that will work. You'd need to run guided setup again is all. If that's not what you mean, let us know.


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## scsiguy72

My Tivo HD is sometimes also locking up, but it seems like a software problem to me and this unit is less than a week old.

I have a standard unhacked HD using only the OTA input (No cable cards, or cable)

As I was watching a program recording in HD I was about 15 minutes behind the buffer and a promo came on that gave me the option to press thumbs up if I wanted to record. I hit thumbs up and the screen went black. Then it started to play very jumpy with no sound. I rewound the recording to an area I had already seen and it wouldn't play either.

I ended up cycling the power and it took about 5 minutes to reboot. When it came back up I was able to go back to the show that was recording and it had continued to record while the unit was locked.


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## richsadams

scsiguy72 said:


> My Tivo HD is sometimes also locking up, but it seems like a software problem to me and this unit is less than a week old.
> 
> I have a standard unhacked HD using only the OTA input (No cable cards, or cable)
> 
> As I was watching a program recording in HD I was about 15 minutes behind the buffer and a promo came on that gave me the option to press thumbs up if I wanted to record. I hit thumbs up and the screen went black. Then it started to play very jumpy with no sound. I rewound the recording to an area I had already seen and it wouldn't play either.
> 
> I ended up cycling the power and it took about 5 minutes to reboot. When it came back up I was able to go back to the show that was recording and it had continued to record while the unit was locked.


Based on your post that's not normal behavior and you may have a buggy TiVo (HDD problem). Put it through its paces...make it work for its keep. If it acts up again in any way within the 30 day free replacement warranty, I'd call TiVo for a replacement. If they give you any grief just tell them that you'd like to cancel the service then. You should have a new TiVo in no time.


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## scsiguy72

richsadams said:


> Based on your post that's not normal behavior and you may have a buggy TiVo (HDD problem). Put it through its paces...make it work for its keep. If it acts up again in any way within the 30 day free replacement warranty, I'd call TiVo for a replacement. If they give you any grief just tell them that you'd like to cancel the service then. You should have a new TiVo in no time.


Thanks for the info. One other thing I noticed was I now have a new menu item for Amazon Unbox. I was browseing the menus and man, were they slow!

I would click page down and maybe 20 seconds later the page would advance. Of course I was clicking a few times and it would advance 3 or 4 pages because I clicked a few times before it responded.


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## richsadams

scsiguy72 said:


> Thanks for the info. One other thing I noticed was I now have a new menu item for Amazon Unbox. I was browseing the menus and man, were they slow!
> 
> I would click page down and maybe 20 seconds later the page would advance. Of course I was clicking a few times and it would advance 3 or 4 pages because I clicked a few times before it responded.


Amazon Unbox is a broadband supported feature. When you're using the Unbox menus the info is coming in over your home network so a lot depends on how fast your broadband connection is at that moment and how fast your network responds. Plus it can also depend on how much demand is being put on their servers and your distance from them. (I believe Amazon's servers are in Seattle.)

When I look at Unbox I've seen the menus zoom along, but other times crawl. Sometimes if I back out of the menu and then go back in things speed up, but it's the luck of the draw with regard to the Internet I'm afraid.


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## acc10x

AshmiNYC said:


> Am reading all the posts here about lockups and rebooting S3 Tivos, and am wondering if someone knows if you can run one without having the Coax cable plugged in. I'm having the exact same problem that everyone is describing (sans external Hard Drive), and it seems to still exist with my replacement box. Had Time Warner here on Saturday, and after 8 cards failed to fix the problem, they said it was the box. Fortunately, Tivo replaced it for me without cost ($800 deposit till old box goes back) but already tonight I saw a hint of it again on the new box. If the box is new, I'm guessing it could be that the signal is too strong for the Tivo, and want to take out the coax. Thoughts?


when i started having problems on my original s3 while waiting for the refurb'd replacement s3, and then with the replacement while waiting for the HD i ordered to arrive, i unplugged the coax so i could kill the cable signal and then i went through and deleted any upcoming hi-def shows i had scheduled and then went into the channels screen on the tivo and unticked any hi-def channels i had. i did all that to prevent switching to a hi-def for whatever reason. i then plugged the coax back in.

removing all hi-def channels allowed my s3 to run flawlessly for the week it took each time to get the replacement box/drive.

in fact, i'm fairly certain i could've left it set up that way without running any hi-def channels and continued on using my original s3 indefinitely. but what's the point in having a s3 if you can't watch hi-def, right?


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## richsadams

acc10x said:


> But what's the point in having a s3 if you can't watch hi-def, right?


Exactly. :up: The HD signal does seem to be the issue more often than not. Hopefully that can get resolved for everyone...soon!


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## AshmiNYC

Thanks so much for all the info. Am on my second S3 box and its worse than the broken one so it appears to be an issue outside the TiVo units. Had an interesting chat with a rep who told me some more things to check. First is that when cable co. installs cards, the pair have to match - 2 single or 2 multi stream. Also said to check power surges and recommended getting a UPS and lastly to check my wireless network adapter as they tend to fail and cause issues as well. Back to the drawing board.

UPDATE: Time Warner Cable came for the second time in a week and installed new cable cards. Authorization went smoothly, the tech installer seemed knowledge and so did the authorizing technician on the phone. The installer showed me his notes and his previous job was for the exact same problem. Nearly 3 hours later the customer agreed to let him close the job and note it as unresolved. 

Within 5 minutes of getting the cards authorized, the problem returned again. I've now done everything I can think of to fix it. Restart, Reset, card swapping, running without network adapter, moving the plug to a wall outlet, and Kickstart 57, 58 and 52. It now seems to me that the new 9.2a update has compatibility issues with my cable cards (Scientific Atlanta). In less than 2 weeks, I've gone through 2 visits from TWC, 2 boxes, and the only time anything runs is when no cable cards are in the box. I've settled with getting an HD DVR from TWC until the TiVo problem is fixed. I'm stuck paying the monthly fee because of how the boxes are sold and trying to maneuver some recording out of it on the most basic cable channel lineup ever, which doesn't even include Fox 5. Having had a Tivo since 2003, this is such a huge disappointment. I'd love to sell my box on eBay and be done with them, but my conscience won't let me dump my junk on someone else. So, for now I'll wait for an update and try again.


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## AshmiNYC

Thanks for the reply. After 10 days of trying, my Tivo is in worse shape. Got a new box, another visit from TWC and not only is the same issue happening, but this box doesn't even work without the cable cards installed. Its frozen with the top left red light on. Am calling TIVO again, but have moved to a TWC DVR in the meantime. Its odd to me that two separate units are having the exact same problem. My last tech installer told me he had just come from another place that was having similar issues and after three hours the customer told him he could go. Am at a total loss as how something that worked flawlessly for nearly six months just dies like that...in 2 boxes? This feels like a TIVO software issue but, I just don't know anymore.


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## *hoosierdaddy*

My cable company (WOW) is focusing on EMM count in Cable Card setup. They are (wait for it...) suggesting that a reboot every night will solve issue since their cable cards are "rebooted" every night at 2 AM which I doubt.

I am pretty fed up with the whole mess.


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## richsadams

AshmiNYC said:


> Thanks for the reply. After 10 days of trying, my Tivo is in worse shape. Got a new box, another visit from TWC and not only is the same issue happening, but this box doesn't even work without the cable cards installed. Its frozen with the top left red light on. Am calling TIVO again, but have moved to a TWC DVR in the meantime. Its odd to me that two separate units are having the exact same problem. My last tech installer told me he had just come from another place that was having similar issues and after three hours the customer told him he could go. Am at a total loss as how something that worked flawlessly for nearly six months just dies like that...in 2 boxes? This feels like a TIVO software issue but, I just don't know anymore.


How aggravating. I agree, having the exact same issue on two boxes (plus another TiVo having the same problem in your area) would lead me to believe something local changed rather than w/TiVo. In addition your new TiVo would almost certainly have come w/v8.1x software installed, not the latest (v9.2a). Hmmmm.


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## mistaketv

I posted a while back. This is the update:

Even though (from reading the posts here) I wasn't convinced that it would do me any good, I called TiVo about my S3 rebooting and losing video issues. The rep sent me a "new" S3 unit at no cost. Despite all the paperwork indicating that it is new, it looks like a refurb to me.

The very first HD program I try to record on the new box (when it was running v8.1) triggers a random reboot mid-show. I reinstalled the CableCards and repeated guided setup and waited for the software update. It functioned normally for a while. Then it started the no-tuner gray-screen thing where it would appear to be recording something but would not actually be getting a signal. Rebooting would make the tuners work for a while.

I took out the CCs, repeated guided setup without them, reinserted them, and repeated guided setup again. CC1 will show both HD and SD channels. CC2 will show either only HD channels or none. If I leave them both in, eventually TiVo will tune either HD channels only or SD channels only, but never both. I removed the CCs a couple of days ago and left them out. Everything seems to be fine when HD is out of the equation (except, of course, picture quality).

I called my cable co. (Mediacom) to have them install new CCs. (Of course first they have to try sending a "hit" to reset my CCs, which does exactly nothing, even after removing/reinserting/repeating guided setup multiple time.) For some reason, they insist on sending a tech; they won't let me swap the cards at the office. So now I have a service call scheduled for Saturday where I may or may not get new CCs. I am not at all confident that it will resolve the problem. I am so sick of dealing with this, and I don't see an end in sight.

Can anyone recommend how I should proceed? What should I do before the cable guy comes? I'm at a loss for how to best resolve this.

Oh, and I forgot: Even in SD-only operation, I get a "Searching for Signal on Cable In" message every time I change channels, but only on the second tuner. When it eventually gets the signal, the video is choppy. I have to change the channel and try again, at which point it's okay. Yet another reason I fear that all the new CableCards in the world are not going to do any good.


----------



## richsadams

mistaketv said:


> I posted a while back. This is the update:
> 
> Even though (from reading the posts here) I wasn't convinced that it would do me any good, I called TiVo about my S3 rebooting and losing video issues. The rep sent me a "new" S3 unit at no cost. Despite all the paperwork indicating that it is new, it looks like a refurb to me.
> 
> The very first HD program I try to record on the new box (when it was running v8.1) triggers a random reboot mid-show. I reinstalled the CableCards and repeated guided setup and waited for the software update. It functioned normally for a while. Then it started the no-tuner gray-screen thing where it would appear to be recording something but would not actually be getting a signal. Rebooting would make the tuners work for a while.
> 
> I took out the CCs, repeated guided setup without them, reinserted them, and repeated guided setup again. CC1 will show both HD and SD channels. CC2 will show either only HD channels or none. If I leave them both in, eventually TiVo will tune either HD channels only or SD channels only, but never both. I removed the CCs a couple of days ago and left them out. Everything seems to be fine when HD is out of the equation (except, of course, picture quality).
> 
> I called my cable co. (Mediacom) to have them install new CCs. (Of course first they have to try sending a "hit" to reset my CCs, which does exactly nothing, even after removing/reinserting/repeating guided setup multiple time.) For some reason, they insist on sending a tech; they won't let me swap the cards at the office. So now I have a service call scheduled for Saturday where I may or may not get new CCs. I am not at all confident that it will resolve the problem. I am so sick of dealing with this, and I don't see an end in sight.
> 
> Can anyone recommend how I should proceed? What should I do before the cable guy comes? I'm at a loss for how to best resolve this.
> 
> Oh, and I forgot: Even in SD-only operation, I get a "Searching for Signal on Cable In" message every time I change channels, but only on the second tuner. When it eventually gets the signal, the video is choppy. I have to change the channel and try again, at which point it's okay. Yet another reason I fear that all the new CableCards in the world are not going to do any good.


Yet another aggravating story.  IMHO it sounds like cable card and/or signal issues. Again the odds of two TiVo's (mis)behaving the exact same way are small. And the fact that things run smoothly w/o the cable cards also point in that direction.

There are numerous posts here and elsewhere detailing how many cable cards some people have had to go through to get ones that worked...IIRC one OP said that the tech went through a dozen! Scientific Atlanta cards seem to be the worst offenders.

The last time we had a tech out he said that he "hoped" that the cards he brought would work. He said he had to go through four of them on his last stop before he found ones that did. He showed me a pile of them in his front seat saying that it wasn't unusual for him to have to return that many in a week because they were "screwed up". I asked him what they do with them and he said he didn't know...that maybe they threw them back in the box for the next guy to use. 

I guess the key is not to accept that the cable cards are working and make sure the tech keeps replacing them until they do. Hopefully he will bring more than a couple with him.

Best of luck. :up:


----------



## *hoosierdaddy*

Two new cable cards, another $49 truck roll fee, same issue.


----------



## acc10x

after replacing the refurb'd box with a drive from weaknees (because it too gave me the same problems as my original box) i'm approx two weaks out with no hi-def issues, reboots, etc. :up:

knock on wood, salt over shoulders, prayers to any listening gods.

given that, my vote still goes towards it being a hard drive issue. too many folks with different service providers, card manufacturers, etc., for it to be isolated to a particular card, vendor, or cable provider. and even if it's not, i still wish tivo would publicly acknowledge the issue and say they're working on resolving it with all parties.


----------



## MungoJerrie

acc10x said:


> after replacing the refurb'd box with a drive from weaknees (because it too gave me the same problems as my original box) i'm approx two weaks out with no hi-def issues, reboots, etc.


Curious what make/model drive did you get and was it pre-imaged or did you DIY?


----------



## acc10x

MungoJerrie said:


> Curious what make/model drive did you get and was it pre-imaged or did you DIY?


purchased a 500gb seagate db35 pre-imaged drive from weaknees. initially thought about going the DIY route, but really wanted to spend as little time as possible and just swap the f***er out and get up and running in as short of time as possible. so for me it was worth the extra $ to go that route.

the stock drive was a western digital, but i don't know what model off-hand.

still knocking on wood and am a little paranoid about shouting hurrah too loudly for fear of jinxing things.


----------



## mag249

I am so confused. So I have the same locking, reboot, stuttering, etc as everyone else. I pull the coax and it works fine. Menu quick, can watch everything on the now playing list etc. 

Can anyone explain the basics to me as to the relationship to coax in and problems?

I assume it would need to be one of the following:

1) Cable signal stength-Too high? What is too high? Too low? What reading is too low?
2) Cable card issue-Should I have the cable provider ping me again? Any other potential things I should look for?
3) Hard drive-I did kickstart 57 and 58. No issues came up with the diagnostic. Why do people think this is a hard drive issue? I would gladly pay Weaknees for a new drive, but don't want to spend money needlessly.

I also have a HD Tivo and it seems to be working fine so I can always transfer shows which is fine for the short term, but I would like to find a fix as soon as I can.

Thanks for any help that can be given.

MAG


----------



## willier9

acc10x said:


> when i started having problems on my original s3 while waiting for the refurb'd replacement s3, and then with the replacement while waiting for the HD i ordered to arrive, i unplugged the coax so i could kill the cable signal and then i went through and deleted any upcoming hi-def shows i had scheduled and then went into the channels screen on the tivo and unticked any hi-def channels i had. i did all that to prevent switching to a hi-def for whatever reason. i then plugged the coax back in.
> 
> removing all hi-def channels allowed my s3 to run flawlessly for the week it took each time to get the replacement box/drive.
> 
> in fact, i'm fairly certain i could've left it set up that way without running any hi-def channels and continued on using my original s3 indefinitely. but what's the point in having a s3 if you can't watch hi-def, right?


I've had the same problem for a few weeks. At first, it was just lagging menus and buttons. Then it went to partial recordings on HD channels, then on all channels, and finally stuttering even on live TV. Everything previously recorded would play just fine, once I sat through 30 seconds of waiting for menus to load. I have only SD on coax and an HD OTA antenna. I unplugged the antenna and all the problems went away. I did a complete clear & delete, replugged the antenna - same problems. I've had this box since November '06, so replacing it would be $149 for me. I'll just record from the coax for now and see if 9.3 fixes the problem. I'm not paying all that money for the same thing to happen again.


----------



## richsadams

willier9 said:


> I've had the same problem for a few weeks. At first, it was just lagging menus and buttons. Then it went to partial recordings on HD channels, then on all channels, and finally stuttering even on live TV. Everything previously recorded would play just fine, once I sat through 30 seconds of waiting for menus to load. I have only SD on coax and an HD OTA antenna. I unplugged the antenna and all the problems went away. I did a complete clear & delete, replugged the antenna - same problems. I've had this box since November '06, so replacing it would be $149 for me. I'll just record from the coax for now and see if 9.3 fixes the problem. I'm not paying all that money for the same thing to happen again.


That sounds more like I/O issues...HD requiring higher data throughput and TiVo unable to correct for errors. Unfortunately a software upgrade probably won't address that. Let us know how it goes, but IMHO you're looking at a replacement.


----------



## richsadams

mag249 said:


> I am so confused. So I have the same locking, reboot, stuttering, etc as everyone else. I pull the coax and it works fine. Menu quick, can watch everything on the now playing list etc.
> 
> Can anyone explain the basics to me as to the relationship to coax in and problems?
> 
> I assume it would need to be one of the following:
> 
> 1) Cable signal stength-Too high? What is too high? Too low? What reading is too low?
> 2) Cable card issue-Should I have the cable provider ping me again? Any other potential things I should look for?
> 3) Hard drive-I did kickstart 57 and 58. No issues came up with the diagnostic. Why do people think this is a hard drive issue? I would gladly pay Weaknees for a new drive, but don't want to spend money needlessly.
> 
> I also have a HD Tivo and it seems to be working fine so I can always transfer shows which is fine for the short term, but I would like to find a fix as soon as I can.
> 
> Thanks for any help that can be given.
> 
> MAG


Sorry, I didn't see your post earlier. But I see by your post on another thread that you've replaced your hard drive and everything is fine again. :up:


----------



## xwordprof

Hi Rich:

Been reading thru this thread and thought I would add my experience.

For now (more about that in a sec) I have 2 TiVo HD's bought in Feb., M-CC's, Comcast service. (Provisioning the CC's took 3 hours , not b/c of the tech who was competent, but finding a back office staffer to get it right). 

I've had numerous partial recordings and some auto reboots on both boxes since purchasing them. Last nite I had one HD reboot twice in the middle of live TV. Your outstanding instructions about the kickstarts helped me get going again but the problems persist.

My coax setup is one line into a splitter + amp and I read SNR of about 35 on the more problematic box. So I'm thinking I need some attentuators. I am switching over to Verizon FiOS tomorrow (yes, another CC experience, I am a glutton for punishment . . .) and hoping the tech will have some with him. I didn't try doing it on my own for that reason.

I think even if I try keeping signal strength down, there will still be problems. I tend to share your view that we are being used as software beta testers and I'm not happy about it. I'll keep you updated after this next install.


----------



## jdccroad

After reading some of the comments and issues some are having I figured I would add a few of my experiences. I have 2 TiVo HD's with MS CC's Comcast service.

Same random reboot, partial recordings, unresponsive menu's, so I swapped out one of the units, exact same results, so I don't think it's a bad part.

So here is what I know, and this lines up with some of the other posts about antenna or cable being connected/disconnected.

When my TiVo is on SD channels on both tuners everything is fine.
When my TiVo is on one SD channel and on one HD channel the menu's slow down slightly.
When my TiVo is on HD channels on both tuners the menu crawls, remote commands are sluggish. Fast forward/rewind & play are slow to react or do not react. I can still watch shows with 2 HD's recording as long as it is one of the shows that is recording. No ff/rw/pause through commercials.

Here is the killer, 2 HD's recording and trying to play other HD content from your now playing selection.

Guaranteed reboot (cause of partial recordings). Pausing a HD recording while 2 HD shows are recording.

Here is the issue (at least in my head)
SD content is written to the hard drive at around 1.6gb or less (depending on recording quality) an hour or 26mb/minute.
HD content is written to the hard drive at up to 4.6gb an hour or 81mb/minute.
Two HD channels selected could be writing 162mb/minute.
Two HD channels recording & HD content playing 243mb/minute.


Now I don't know where the data bottle neck is in my HD TiVo, is it the processor, memory, hard drive, etc, but I do know it's not my cable card. The issue is definitely load based. 

Here is how I survive until a fix is found. 
1. Only have one tuner on HD content at a time. 
2. If you do record 2 HD programs at once, don't try to watch them until they are done recording. Then go into live tv and set both tuners to SD channels, before watching.
3. Stagger your HD recordings to reduce the workload. If you record a lot of content (that's why you own a TiVo) like I do. I decided that not all shows had to be recorded in HD if they aired at the same time as another show that I had to see in HD.

I would like to hear if any one else is making due by managing the workload.


----------



## richsadams

xwordprof said:


> Hi Rich:
> 
> Been reading thru this thread and thought I would add my experience.
> 
> For now (more about that in a sec) I have 2 TiVo HD's bought in Feb., M-CC's, Comcast service. (Provisioning the CC's took 3 hours , not b/c of the tech who was competent, but finding a back office staffer to get it right).
> 
> I've had numerous partial recordings and some auto reboots on both boxes since purchasing them. Last nite I had one HD reboot twice in the middle of live TV. Your outstanding instructions about the kickstarts helped me get going again but the problems persist.
> 
> My coax setup is one line into a splitter + amp and I read SNR of about 35 on the more problematic box. So I'm thinking I need some attentuators. I am switching over to Verizon FiOS tomorrow (yes, another CC experience, I am a glutton for punishment . . .) and hoping the tech will have some with him. I didn't try doing it on my own for that reason.
> 
> I think even if I try keeping signal strength down, there will still be problems. I tend to share your view that we are being used as software beta testers and I'm not happy about it. I'll keep you updated after this next install.


It'll be interesting to learn how Verizon handles things.

I noted that you have an amp after your splitter. I'm assuming this is to boost the signal to at least one of your boxes? Rather than adding attenuation I'd try removing the amp.

I have one splitter feeding two boxes, one immediately after the wall (Series3) and one upstairs (TiVo HD). The SNR on the first box runs fairly hot, 36 to 38 with a signal strength of 100 on almost all channels. It does experience some macroblocking/pixelization once in a while and when I've checked the SNR it has been hot; 37+. I've considered attenuating that box but it's so infrequent that I haven't been annoyed enough to do it yet.

However on the second floor box the SNR runs in the "sweet spot" of about 31 to 32 with the signal strength as low as 60 with the average being about 75. That worried me initially of course and I thought I'd need to add an amp or run new coax, etc. But it's been that way for over three months now and the PQ and audio have been fine, no problems at all.

Bottom line is that (as long as RS corrected and uncorrected errors are low to zero), it's been my experience that TiVo doesn't require a very hot signal to deliver good PQ...in fact as most folks have experienced here a signal that's too hot can have a very negative impact. So I'd see how things go without the amp and once you have FIOS only attenuate as needed.

Thanks for the info and keep us posted! :up:


----------



## richsadams

jdccroad said:


> After reading some of the comments and issues some are having I figured I would add a few of my experiences. I have 2 TiVo HD's with MS CC's Comcast service.
> 
> Same random reboot, partial recordings, unresponsive menu's, so I swapped out one of the units, exact same results, so I don't think it's a bad part.
> 
> So here is what I know, and this lines up with some of the other posts about antenna or cable being connected/disconnected.
> 
> When my TiVo is on SD channels on both tuners everything is fine.
> When my TiVo is on one SD channel and on one HD channel the menu's slow down slightly.
> When my TiVo is on HD channels on both tuners the menu crawls, remote commands are sluggish. Fast forward/rewind & play are slow to react or do not react. I can still watch shows with 2 HD's recording as long as it is one of the shows that is recording. No ff/rw/pause through commercials.
> 
> Here is the killer, 2 HD's recording and trying to play other HD content from your now playing selection.
> 
> Guaranteed reboot (cause of partial recordings). Pausing a HD recording while 2 HD shows are recording.
> 
> Here is the issue (at least in my head)
> SD content is written to the hard drive at around 1.6gb or less (depending on recording quality) an hour or 26mb/minute.
> HD content is written to the hard drive at up to 4.6gb an hour or 81mb/minute.
> Two HD channels selected could be writing 162mb/minute.
> Two HD channels recording & HD content playing 243mb/minute.
> 
> Now I don't know where the data bottle neck is in my HD TiVo, is it the processor, memory, hard drive, etc, but I do know it's not my cable card. The issue is definitely load based.
> 
> Here is how I survive until a fix is found.
> 1. Only have one tuner on HD content at a time.
> 2. If you do record 2 HD programs at once, don't try to watch them until they are done recording. Then go into live tv and set both tuners to SD channels, before watching.
> 3. Stagger your HD recordings to reduce the workload. If you record a lot of content (that's why you own a TiVo) like I do. I decided that not all shows had to be recorded in HD if they aired at the same time as another show that I had to see in HD.
> 
> I would like to hear if any one else is making due by managing the workload.


Sounds like you've developed a good work around. :up:

I've also experienced slow downs when in "heavy HD use". I've noticed that when our Series3 is recording two HD programs while we're watching a third that during FF it skips frames completely, causing a momentary "freeze frame" effect. I've also noticed the menu slow-down when two HD programs are recording. However I've never experienced a reboot on either our Series3 or TiVo HD under any circumstances.

IIRC a post from TiVoJerry (TiVo Engineer) said that v9.3 will speed up the menus (among other things). Initial reports from people that now have it have mentioned that everything seems much "snappier". That's probably good news for what we're seeing but the upgrade is only going to Series2's at the moment.

I still think that cable cards can play a direct roll however. When v8.x was introduced last year people with TiVo HD's had all sorts of issues, particularly those with Scientific Atlanta (SA) cable cards. People with Motorola cable cards didn't seem to be affected, at least as much. (That's what we have and we never saw any problems.) TiVo released a second upgrade within a month or so and that made huge strides towards fixing the original issues with the SA cards.

If the signal from the CC's isn't within TiVo's tolerances it appears that there are I/O errors that it can't resolve; worst case causing reboots, etc. So I think it's a combination of the cable cards, signal and TiVo being able to process everything. Although it contradicts a little of what I've said earlier, I'd like to think that v9.3x will address this but we'll have to wait and see.

If you continue to experience reboots after the upgrade (or even before), I'd insist that TiVo replace your box(es) though. That's not normal and you shouldn't have to be dealing with a work around or miss any HD programming.


----------



## xwordprof

richsadams said:


> It'll be interesting to learn how Verizon handles things.


I'm afraid, to put it mildly. I've read the FiOS-CC threads, printed out everything, crossing fingers. The install has many moving parts beyond the TiVO end & I suspect getting 6 S-cards in is going to take forever.



richsadams said:


> I noted that you have an amp after your splitter. I'm assuming this is to boost the signal to at least one of your boxes? Rather than adding attenuation I'd try removing the amp.


I have one splitter feeding eight rooms. Comcast's signal strength on the digital channels was an issue & they "solved" it by boosting signal with the amp (before the splitter). So, what was a "fix" for Comcast appears to be a negative for THD. I'll print out your #'s from last post for reference. Thanks.


----------



## richsadams

I wouldn't get too worked up over FIOS. I know there are a number of posts on this forum by people having problems, but I've also seen quite a few that think FIOS is the best things since sliced bread...or TiVo! 

I try to always keep in mind that people that find there way here have troubles of some nature, TiVo or otherwise, and are looking for help (or just want to complain ). Of course a majority of people are quite happy with their TiVo's and have no idea this forum even exists.

So think positive and have a cold beer ready for the poor Verizon guy when he's done.


----------



## willier9

willier9 said:


> I've had the same problem for a few weeks. At first, it was just lagging menus and buttons. Then it went to partial recordings on HD channels, then on all channels, and finally stuttering even on live TV. Everything previously recorded would play just fine, once I sat through 30 seconds of waiting for menus to load. I have only SD on coax and an HD OTA antenna. I unplugged the antenna and all the problems went away. I did a complete clear & delete, replugged the antenna - same problems. I've had this box since November '06, so replacing it would be $149 for me. I'll just record from the coax for now and see if 9.3 fixes the problem. I'm not paying all that money for the same thing to happen again.


As of tonight, the problem also exists with the SD coax signal, which leaves me with an expensive jukebox (the TiVo Desktop access still works). At certain times I can hear the HDD from across the room. The kickstarts did not help. Luck of the draw, I suppose. This one fails in 16 months, but my Series 2 has been going since mid 2001. I'm either going to send it back in or change the hard drive myself. We'll see how I feel in the morning.


----------



## xwordprof

richsadams said:


> have a cold beer ready for the poor Verizon guy when he's done.


definitely was on the checklist . . . most of my neighbors have thrown in 3 squares while they were at it! . . .

you may get an "in progress" report . . . of course if you do that means my network is up and running and I am halfway home. thanks, rich.


----------



## cliffdunaway

jdccroad said:


> After reading some of the comments and issues some are having I figured I would add a few of my experiences. I have 2 TiVo HD's with MS CC's Comcast service.
> 
> Same random reboot, partial recordings, unresponsive menu's, so I swapped out one of the units, exact same results, so I don't think it's a bad part.
> 
> So here is what I know, and this lines up with some of the other posts about antenna or cable being connected/disconnected.
> 
> When my TiVo is on SD channels on both tuners everything is fine.
> When my TiVo is on one SD channel and on one HD channel the menu's slow down slightly.
> When my TiVo is on HD channels on both tuners the menu crawls, remote commands are sluggish. Fast forward/rewind & play are slow to react or do not react. I can still watch shows with 2 HD's recording as long as it is one of the shows that is recording. No ff/rw/pause through commercials.
> 
> Here is the killer, 2 HD's recording and trying to play other HD content from your now playing selection.
> 
> Guaranteed reboot (cause of partial recordings). Pausing a HD recording while 2 HD shows are recording.
> 
> Here is the issue (at least in my head)
> SD content is written to the hard drive at around 1.6gb or less (depending on recording quality) an hour or 26mb/minute.
> HD content is written to the hard drive at up to 4.6gb an hour or 81mb/minute.
> Two HD channels selected could be writing 162mb/minute.
> Two HD channels recording & HD content playing 243mb/minute.
> 
> Now I don't know where the data bottle neck is in my HD TiVo, is it the processor, memory, hard drive, etc, but I do know it's not my cable card. The issue is definitely load based.
> 
> Here is how I survive until a fix is found.
> 1. Only have one tuner on HD content at a time.
> 2. If you do record 2 HD programs at once, don't try to watch them until they are done recording. Then go into live tv and set both tuners to SD channels, before watching.
> 3. Stagger your HD recordings to reduce the workload. If you record a lot of content (that's why you own a TiVo) like I do. I decided that not all shows had to be recorded in HD if they aired at the same time as another show that I had to see in HD.
> 
> I would like to hear if any one else is making due by managing the workload.


I have the same problem, except mine is worse. If I even tune to 2 digital channels, my TivoHD reboots within 5 - 15 minutes.

My workaround is this:
Most of the programs I record are from the major networks, all of which broadcast over the air in HD here in Richmond. So I hooked up a pair of rabbit ears, re-ran setup to find both antenna and cable channels, and changed my network recordings to OTA HD channels (6-1, 12-1, 35-1, etc.). Works like a charm, absolutely no slowdown, freezing, or rebooting for the last week.

I would think this points strongly to the problem being the Comcast cablecard?


----------



## xwordprof

The VZ tech was at my house for 15 hours yesterday. That is no misprint: he left just before midnite. Obviously he went well above and beyond! He hadn't seen many TiVos before but had pretty good CC experience and was extremely helpful in the clutch. 

On the +ve side I do now have what I believe to be 3 THDs with 2 functioning S-Cards in each, and to be fair, much of that 15 hours was the other FiOS stuff. With a few delays along the way, we didn't get to the THDs and CC's until 6 pm. The tech scared the pee out of me by calling at 9 am, before coming over, and saying he only had 2 CC's ("not 3") and what was I going to do, run 2 coax connections to each box???  But to his enormous credit he scared up the remaining cards on the spot and quickly caught on that it was 2 CCs, 1 box. As many have reported in various CC threads (and perhaps I should bump some of this there), VZ techs come with what they need for pairing configured on their laptops and it helps a ton. We'd have been SOL if we'd had to call a real live human being as the Comcast tech had done. In fact there was some real drama involved. The tech told me at 9:45 pm, when we had no cards that worked, that he had to leave by midnight because his computer would freeze him out and reset for another work day. Of course I was hoping it wouldn't take that long, and when it nearly almost did, we were on our last try when I got all of the FiOS channels with minutes to spare. :up: 

On the -ve side the pairing of CC's was frustrating, difficult and a process of repeated experimentation, even with the mountain of documentation from fine forum folk & experience with Comcast before this. What finally worked -- and again I am repeating the experiences of others -- was a "cold init" on all 6 cards + complete guided setup again, including doing this on 2 cards that "supposedly" had previously worked. I noted repeatedly that the tech's software showed all 6 cards as initialized and validated. That is no guarantee that the full channel lineup is there, nor that you can see it on a THD. I'll go into that further in the VZ-CC thread. I wish I'd kept some screen shots but I'll do my best. 

After the tech left we tried some transfers and resetting Season Passes etc. just to see if navigating around the menus has improved. I have to say I did not have much patience for this at 1 am. Obviously I do not know if the partial recording/lockup issues etc. will persist until we have a few days' experience to report. Speed looks better overall, but I have changed so much that I am not sure what is responsible for that. I did notice that I still have 9.2a on all 3 boxes, so Rich is right about the rollout to THDs coming later (and that I have not benefited from whatever upgrades to speed will be in 9.3x). I went from a wireless network, with 2 THDs wirelessly networked to each other, to a wired Ethernet network, and the first few between-room transfers appeared to be substantially quicker. 

Thanks to all, especially you Rich, for the encouragement. We'll see what happens next.


----------



## JimWall

Here is a summary of my issues which may provide insight for others.

I have two series 3 Tivos. One with 2 Hitachi Terabyte HDs and one with 2 WD Terabyte HDs. Both external drives used same model of esata enclosure. 
After many months of working fine after the last Tivo software update the one with the Hitachi drives started rebooting. Temporarily removing the cable signal solved the continous rebooting for a couple weeks. Changing turners to SD channels worked for while with cable attached. Eventually nothing worked and detaching the external storage using a copy of the A drive on a new WD Terabyte HD solved the problems. It has been working for over a month with no problems.

The other Tivo with 2 WD terabyte drives had NO problems. They sit next to each other off the same splitter. Both use SA cable cards.

This tells me it is a either a HD issue and/or when the Hitach drives have an issue with the TIVO esata controller/device driver. And does not handle errors properly. Neither of the Hitachi drives had any errors when I tested them on two different PCs.

If this is so then I hope to next TIVO software update has improved disk controller drivers.

Also the Tivo with no problems with 2 WD Terabyte HDs did have some random skipping with the original drive. When I upgraded to the WD Terabyte HDs I got some errors doing the backup. After several tries I got a good backup. I had to do a DD Rescue to copy to the new drive. Spinrite found a bad spot at 52% done on the original drive which took many days for spinrite to fix. Probably because Tivo was dropped during shipping. Rest of drive was perfect.
I also noticed my two PCs sometimes aren't able to connect to the Hitachi at the highest speed every time. TIVO with 2 HD streams definitely needs drives/controller working at top speed. Difference between a 3 hour full test verses 4 days.
I did try an external raid array I got cheap because it was an old esata 1.5 GBs. It would work for a few minutes and then reboot. I am certain it was because 1.5 GBs is not enough bandwidth and after hanging for X seconds the TIVO reboots automatically.

Heat can be an issue. The Hitachi 1 TB HDs run a lot hotter than the WD.

I have also noticed that these hudge drives are quite sensitive. They take more than a few seconds to spin down and moving them before hand causes problems. This happened after copying from original drive and removing it too quickly. TIVO had a lot of pausing problems. I recopied and waited much longer before moving it to the TIVO and it has worked perfectly.


----------



## richsadams

xwordprof said:


> The VZ tech was at my house for 15 hours yesterday. That is no misprint: he left just before midnite. Obviously he went well above and beyond! He hadn't seen many TiVos before but had pretty good CC experience and was extremely helpful in the clutch.<snip>


 Yeow!  That _has _to be a record! I can't imagine one of our Comcast techs staying longer than a couple of hours. They're contractors paid by the job and all.

Excellent write up. :up: I've saved it for future reference. Based on earlier posts I know others have gone through a lot of that but the details will be very valuable in the future. If not for others...for me if/when FIOS ever comes to my neighborhood! 

I'd give your TiVo's a few days to get up to speed. They will each have to fully download and re-index all of the programming information. That's known to slow them down for a good 24 to 72 hours and if you have a lot of HD SP's and/or WL's it seems they take the most amount of time to fully configure.

Thanks again for the great info and let us know how things go...especially how your HD PQ looks compared to Comcast.


----------



## richsadams

JimWall said:


> Here is a summary of my issues which may provide insight for others.
> 
> I have two series 3 Tivos. One with 2 Hitachi Terabyte HDs and one with 2 WD Terabyte HDs. <snip>


Excellent info as well. :up:

After numerous, similar posts I agree that I/O error correction is certainly an issue, particularly when writing HD data. As some are seeing it with OEM drives and others with upgraded drives, my suspicion is that it's more to do with TiVo's ability to handle errors as you suggest, not so much the drives themselves. However PC drives may exacerbate the problem as their error correction settings are higher than DVR dedicated drives. (Although I'm not seeing any issues I kind of wish I'd waited to install one of the newer WD AP GP DVR drives instead of the early PC model that came out last September.) I wonder if the WD drives simply have a lower error threshold making them a little more suitable for DVR use but not as good for high demand PC's or servers? Plus add SA cable cards (which are known to be problematic) into the mix and the error factor continues to climb.

I've also found hard drives that passed a "quick test" ultimately failed on extended read/write/read tests. And you're right, heat has always been an issue with hard drives and data corruption. Small power fluctuations can cause data corruption as well and the larger the drives get the more opportunity for failure points. The power delivered to our home is fairy steady and I have all of our TiVo's on APC UPS blocks and haven't had any issues. However I'd be inclined to put them on power conditioners if I started seeing problems.

All good information...thanks for that and keep us posted.


----------



## xwordprof

richsadams said:


> Based on earlier posts I know others have gone through a lot of that but the details will be very valuable in the future. If not for others...for me if/when FIOS ever comes to my neighborhood!


 I was very fortunate to have had (a) the ability to look over the tech's shoulder & work with him in his software apps, and (b) a treasure trove of info from here before going in.

Today I have a stereo installer coming to do the rest of my stuff with me. After that, I'll try to grunt out a much longer version of my experience for reference for others.


----------



## madneon

Needless to say I am having the same problem anyway I just got off of the phone with the most argumentative call center person I have ever talked to ( basically stating that it has to be the CC's ) anyway we did the kickstart 57 ( the only one that actually works on these boxes according to him. and it did its thing in about 20 mins I am currently turned to 2 HD channels but it usually crashes when it's A. tuned to 2 HD channels for a while or B. recording 2 hd channels while I watch a prerecorded HD show well see.......Oh yeah he ended the conversation stating TIVO has no new units and it will be months b4 new ones arrive.....


----------



## madneon

Well the problem still exists it seems like its best for everyone to just record one show at a time until a update comes out.


----------



## richsadams

madneon said:


> Needless to say I am having the same problem anyway I just got off of the phone with the most argumentative call center person I have ever talked to ( basically stating that it has to be the CC's ) anyway we did the kickstart 57 ( the only one that actually works on these boxes according to him. and it did its thing in about 20 mins I am currently turned to 2 HD channels but it usually crashes when it's A. tuned to 2 HD channels for a while or B. recording 2 hd channels while I watch a prerecorded HD show well see.......Oh yeah he ended the conversation stating TIVO has no new units and it will be months b4 new ones arrive.....





madneon said:


> Well the problem still exists it seems like its best for everyone to just record one show at a time until a update comes out.


That's interesting and sounds frustrating. Since a number of people have talked about different problems here, can you tell us what you're running into exactly? Does your TiVo reboot when (and only when) you're recording two HD programs and watching a third? Or are there other instances? Or is it something else completely?

KS57 runs fsfix which basically locates and isolates damaged sectors on TiVo's hard drive...nothing to do with cable cards. So if it is a cable card issue that wouldn't have helped. That it took 20 minutes or so to run would indicate that there were some problems that TiVo cleaned up or at least tried to clean up.

Have you ruled out cable cards by having them replaced? What brand of cable cards do you have?

An upgrade may or may not address what you're seeing. A little more info would be helpful.


----------



## madneon

Ok I have taken out CC number 2 and I am re-doing the setup I will see what happens after that. If I get the same symptoms ( I.E menu slow down) I will remove CC 1. And Rerun the setup and if it does not happen I will replace the CC's. Also I did notice last night if I removed the Coax input everything did return back to normal speed as far as accessing menus and such....go figure. Oh yeah I have Motorola mediacipher cards.


----------



## madneon

Well here's a little update with 1 cable card installed ( after running the guided setup) all is well the tivo acts normal. So I reinstalled the second and re-ran the guided setup I couldnt even get past the now playing list b4 the unit slowed down to a crawl it did finally make it to live tv but only after a long while. SO I called the Charter who wanted to "send a hit" but they finally agreed to send someone out because only a qualified tech can push the little black button on the rear of my tivo to swap the card......


----------



## richsadams

madneon said:


> Well here's a little update with 1 cable card installed ( after running the guided setup) all is well the tivo acts normal. So I reinstalled the second and re-ran the guided setup I couldnt even get past the now playing list b4 the unit slowed down to a crawl it did finally make it to live tv but only after a long while. SO I called the Charter who wanted to "send a hit" but they finally agreed to send someone out because only a qualified tech can push the little black button on the rear of my tivo to swap the card......


Thanks for the update. Cable cards can cause all sorts of issues. The technology is still "new" in some respects. If TiVo runs normally after you disconnect your coax that would indicate input/output error correction problems which can be a signal or hard drive issue. Noting that you had menu slow downs which were resolved by disconnecting the coax (plus the fact that KS57 took more than a few minutes to run) had me leaning toward a drive issue. But it looks like your hard work is paying off and pointing toward a failing cable card (they do that sometimes).

Some have had success by simply having their cable cards initialized/"re-hit" while others have had to have the cable card's firmware updated and others still have had to have them replaced. There are more than a few posts over the past year or so indicating that some techs have gone through as many as a dozen cards before they found one or two that actually worked.

Can you detail which card you pulled when you removed it? Slot "0" or slot "1"? It may have relevance to the problem.

Having Moto cable cards is in your favor. Scientific Atlanta cards have a poor performance record...mostly resolved by TiVo upgrades to date, but still seem to have more complaints.

Hopefully fixing or replacing your cable cards will solve your problems. Let us know how it goes! :up:


----------



## madneon

I removed slot 1 I was not sure if having the card re-hit would solve my slow down problems I might actually have them try that after I get off work....will update.


Well all was well unit the wifie tuned to a HD channel got screen freeze and now its in a reboot loop I am taking out both cards at this time....the problem seems to be when the tivo tunes to a hd channel it freaks out... HELP!!!!!


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## madneon

Well I finally broke down and called the CS they are sending out another tivo thats number 3 folks....


----------



## richsadams

madneon said:


> Well I finally broke down and called the CS they are sending out another tivo thats number 3 folks....


How frustrating! Is everything else equal with all three units...lived in the same place, same cableco, etc., etc.? Seems almost impossible that you'd have three units go bad. Fingers crossed the next one will live on for many, many years!


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## madneon

Yes this will be my third tivo from them, and I am still at the same base, Ok I am really not trying to jinx myself but I swapped the coax line to the tivo and its currently recording two HD channels and I am watching a prerecorded HD show I got about 2 shots of vodka left if it crashes I will post......

One quick note after swapping the cable line the signal strength went from 77's on both cards to 85-100 on both cards could this have been the problem ( oh yeah I did just get off of the phone with charter ) they claimed the signal might be the problem...could they have given me more power or was it the coax line or am I just crazy and the tivo is still busted will update......


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## richsadams

madneon said:


> Yes this will be my third tivo from them, and I am still at the same base, Ok I am really not trying to jinx myself but I swapped the coax line to the tivo and its currently recording two HD channels and I am watching a prerecorded HD show I got about 2 shots of vodka left if it crashes I will post......
> 
> One quick note after swapping the cable line the signal strength went from 77's on both cards to 85-100 on both cards could this have been the problem ( oh yeah I did just get off of the phone with charter ) they claimed the signal might be the problem...could they have given me more power or was it the coax line or am I just crazy and the tivo is still busted will update......


It certainly could be a signal issue. Sounds like they may have boosted it. If it was weak and there were a number of errors that TiVo couldn't correct, that may have been the issue. Hard to tell though with so many variables. I still feel that the odds are against all of your TiVo's being bad and that it may be something local. Even a bad coax cable can ruin things.

Fingers crossed things smooth out now. Russian Vodka?


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## madneon

Actually it was Russian vodka (aka the water of life) all is good so far :up:


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## madneon

So the cable guy just left ( he actually just brought a single M-card) but he disconnected the coax line to test the sig lvl and when he reconnected the line the tivo did its (slow menu, pixel, not responding to the remote thing) requiring a reboot I am just wondering if that might be part of the problem ( if you disconnect a running tivo's cable input while its busy ( buffering or what ever ) that requires that coax line) when you reconnected it the tivo freaks out....hummm.


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## richsadams

madneon said:


> So the cable guy just left ( he actually just brought a single M-card) but he disconnected the coax line to test the sig lvl and when he reconnected the line the tivo did its (slow menu, pixel, not responding to the remote thing) requiring a reboot I am just wondering if that might be part of the problem ( if you disconnect a running tivo's cable input while its busy ( buffering or what ever ) that requires that coax line) when you reconnected it the tivo freaks out....hummm.


That is a hmmmm. TiVo is always recording/buffering two channels but it shouldn't flip out if the coax is disconnected and reconnected.

One thing I didn't ask about was the connection to your A/V system. Are you using HDMI by any chance? If so, can you try using a component (YPbPr) connection? HDMI isn't likely to cause the menu issues, but it has been known to be problematic particularly with Sony TV's and some Toshibas. The HDCP "handshake" is two-way and can throw things out of whack on occasion.

Overall if the coax is causing a reboot when it's removed and reconnected, it still sounds like a signal issue to me though.


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## NSX

I too had the same problem as described in this thread, until tonight.

My TiVo Series 3 would come crawling to it's knees when 2 HD streams are tuned on both tuners. If I unplug the coaxial cable from the back of the TiVo, the TiVo ran fine. If two SD steams were tuned, the TiVo would run fine. If one HD and one SD streams were tuned, things were fine. It would just come crawling to a halt when 2 HD streams were tuned. I have two S-Cards from Cox Cable San Diego. My TiVo Series 3 was completely unmodified and had an Ethernet/wired connection.

Because I felt like this was a "bandwidth" issue with the HD, I went ahead and ordered a 1TB Hitachi CinemaStar. I received it this afternoon and put it in tonight. I am happy to report that this fixed the problem. I've tested it by tuning to 2 HD channels and played back a HD recording all at the same time and things are butter smooth.

Now I can finally add more HD Season Passes!

YMMV, HTH!


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## acc10x

over a month on since replacing the original western digital drive in my refurb'd s3, which was locking up and which replaced my original s3 because it was locking up, with a weaknees seagate 500gb tivo formatted drive and ZERO problems to report.

i've put away the salt over shoulder, knocking on wood, and prayers to any listening gods kits, and am officially doing the happy dance! (and also hope that by acknowledging this i haven't vexed myself.)


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## rcr2

Agreed. Saying the problem is a cable card issue is burying their head in the sand.

MAYBE there were cablecard issues to begin - and still are in regards to cable companies not knowing how to properly authorize things. BUT all these units people are talking baout have been in service WITH cablecards for a while, then suddenly start having problems.

Most noticeably with HD channels first, then it slowly migrates to the regular channels. there has to be some kind of trigger event - either a capacity level being breached or something like that related to HDD access I/O and/or read/write.

All the side fixes - removing a cable card, etc, can easily be explained in that it reduces the demands on the HDD in some way temporarily.

Wish someone from TiVo would see this and get a clue.


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## *hoosierdaddy*

9.3 upgrade did nothing to fix issues with Tivo HD, FWIW


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## richsadams

*hoosierdaddy* said:


> 9.3 upgrade did nothing to fix issues with Tivo HD, FWIW


None of the issues you've been posting were supposed to be fixed by the latest software upgrade.

See my answer to your other post for some suggestions for your situation, particularly regarding your eSATA drive.


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## Sadara

Tonight I started experiencing the same problems as everyone else in this thread. I am in the middle of the Kickstart 57, but am beginning to think that the hard drive has issues. After what appears the third reboot, it's back to the green screen.


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## tigger pounce

I seem to be having the same problem with my unit. The Tivo just pauses when it's playing live tv. I can fast forward a bit and hit play, then it'll play again for a while before pausing. It seems to be recording fine, but I can't watch live tv. It started doing this last weekend. It's a series 3, with a motorola m card, comcast (in chicago), problem seems to be with HD and non HD programming. Is the solution just to call tivo and get a new unit, or could it be a cable card problem. Either way, it was fine for the last 3 months, and the problem just popped up. I miss my old series 2.


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## smashtheqube

I am also having this issue with my S3 now. I noticed it self-rebooting the other day and the menus were very slow afterward. Kickstart 57 didn't help so I'm trying 58 now.

EDIT: Now I don't even get a video-signal half the time after it finishes booting up. This sucks. Definitely a hardware issue... or CableCARDS... who knows.


----------



## thezonie

Well my S3 (Original HDD, Cox Phoenix, 2 cable cards) decided to go belly up today as well.

It started this afternoon while we were watching an HD recorded show, when the screen went green. I unplugged and plugged back in the power, and the TiVo didn't come back to life at all. All I heard was the hard drive spinning up, the fan came on, but no video or audio out, no lights in the front, no back-lit buttons, unresponsive to remote and font-panel buttons.

I noticed that the TiVo was rather hot (I had recently gotten a new receiver with vents on the top, and that was where the TiVo had spent the last week or so sitting upon). I turned off the receiver, disconnected the TiVo, and let it sit for a while (about 20-30 minutes). I hooked everything back up, and when it started up, it booted up, but I was getting the colorful static that some others have been getting. (It was connected via HDMI through the receiver, and then into the TV.)

After reading through recent posts, I disconnected the HDMI and used to component connections to connect it to the receiver. After plugging it back in it got as far as the "Ready. Set. TiVo." message on the front panel, and no video. It was locked up, and unresponsive to the remote or any buttons pushed on the front panel.

After trying a number of things, it still won't completely boot up. I've disconnected the coax, removed the CableCARDs, and connected it directly to another TV via component video and analog audio. If I unplug it, wait 15 seconds, and plug it back in, I can hear the HDD spin up, see the fan going, but no video or audio, and no front panel activity or back-lit buttons. If I wait 5-10 minutes before plugging it back in, The TiVo icon and lights show up on the front panel, and I get the "TiVo is starting up..." and "Just a few more minutes" screens before the front panel goes black (although the buttons remain back-lit) and the screen goes dark.

Any suggestions? I am going to let it sit unplugged overnight and see what happens in the morning. If it's still having issues, I guess I'm going to have to call TiVo. 

*UPDATE:* Started a Kickstart 57, got the GSOD, left the room for a couple of minutes, came back, and the TiVo front panel is blank (with back-lit buttons) and the screen is black. I am assuming something failed shortly after starting the Kickstart 57. Now I don't know if I should unplug it or not.


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## Sadara

Update for me as well: Did the Kickstart 57 and I swear it went through that and rebooted to the green screen saying it's doing something about 20 times before I left it and went to bed. Woke up to it not getting to the green screen at all, but continually rebooting. I'm doing a kickstart 58 now.


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## Sadara

Well, nevermind I'm back to the green screen, that was fast!


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## thezonie

More evidence it may be a heat issue: I did end up unplugging it after the screen went dark, and I let it sit for about an hour and a half. When I plugged it back in it started up and went to the GSOD. After sitting there for about 5-10 minutes, it rebooted and eventually came up to a screen saying that the CableCARD configuration had changed (which it had, because I had removed both of them). As I went to get the remote to get out of that menu, there was a faint "click" or "ping" from the TiVo and the screen went black. The clock on the front panel remained, but I didn't leave it alone long enough to see if it was actually keeping time or frozen itself. The unit was unresponsive to remote and front-panel buttons. I'll plug it in this morning to see what happens.


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## Sadara

I'm about to unplug it and leave it, as soon as I'm done posting this. It's in the reboot cycle again, no more green screens, just the "almost there" and then reboots again.

Heat could be an issue, based on where it's located in the cabinet. I'll let it cool down see what happens.

I have about a month left on my Tivo "contract" year for this Series 3 Tivo. I may just switch to one of the sat guys to get more HD, and since the Series 3 can't be used with Sat, I may just pitch it. I'm going to give this a good go at fixing it, but I don't know that I care enough to call Tivo and get a replacement.


----------



## challinan

Had the same problem & spent a few hours trying to repair with cable cards, etc. I replaced the HD & all is well...in my case, it was the beginning signs a drive failure.


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## thezonie

*Update:* Now I don't think it's a heat issue. This morning I plugged it in after letting it sit overnight. It got to where the "Ready. Set. TiVo." was on the front panel when the audio made a brief strange "scrambled digital" noise and the screen went blank. I have taken off the case and given it a good shot with the air duster, and now it's back to where it was before: The longer I wait between unplugging and plugging it back in, the further along in the boot process it gets.

Maybe the motherboard is fried or the hdd is dying/dead?


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## thezonie

Well, talked to a CSR this morning who didn't have any ideas beyond what I'd already tried, so a replacement unit is on the way for $49.


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## Sadara

We have an extra sata drive sitting around here, we're going to try replacing the hard drive tonight before we bother with calling Tivo for a replacement.


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## smashtheqube

smashtheqube said:


> I am also having this issue with my S3 now. I noticed it self-rebooting the other day and the menus were very slow afterward. Kickstart 57 didn't help so I'm trying 58 now.
> 
> EDIT: Now I don't even get a video-signal half the time after it finishes booting up. This sucks. Definitely a hardware issue... or CableCARDS... who knows.


I called Tivo today and they had me do the following...
Take out the cable cards, reboot the box. It seemed okay until I searched for a show and then it locked up after I selected it. Then they said unplug the coaxial cable and reboot it, then plug it back it. It'd already frozen before I could do anything.

So, they said I'd have to wait for a patch come out. Yippie... oh well, at least I don't *need* my TV. hehe


----------



## Sadara

Well, last night we decided to replace the hard drive, went through all the motions. Whatever is wrong with the original drive is software, has to be. We copied the problem to the new drive, which is NEW and shouldn't be going bad.

At this point we would like to get our hands on a clean set of software to put on the new drive. But, I have no earthly idea if this is possible or not, without having to purchase an upgrade drive from Weaknees.

We're trying to decide from two options, buy another Series 3 Tivo, use the drive from it to copy everything over to the old Series 3 Tivo with the new drive. Or just order a new upgrade drive. We do want another HD Tivo.

Still trying to decide.


----------



## cliffdunaway

Sadara said:


> Well, last night we decided to replace the hard drive, went through all the motions. Whatever is wrong with the original drive is software, has to be. We copied the problem to the new drive, which is NEW and shouldn't be going bad.
> 
> At this point we would like to get our hands on a clean set of software to put on the new drive. But, I have no earthly idea if this is possible or not, without having to purchase an upgrade drive from Weaknees.
> 
> We're trying to decide from two options, buy another Series 3 Tivo, use the drive from it to copy everything over to the old Series 3 Tivo with the new drive. Or just order a new upgrade drive. We do want another HD Tivo.
> 
> Still trying to decide.


Sadara, what exactly is the problem yo are having?

My unit was slowing down, black screen, and constantly rebooting when I was tuned to cable HD channels, but was fine on over-the-air HD and cable analog.


----------



## Sadara

cliffdunaway said:


> Sadara, what exactly is the problem yo are having?
> 
> My unit was slowing down, black screen, and constantly rebooting when I was tuned to cable HD channels, but was fine on over-the-air HD and cable analog.


I'm in a reboot loop now. Originally it started out as a screen freeze and pixilation, then reboot. Would be fine after reboot for about 20 minutes, then screen freeze, pixilation and reboot again. I did a kickstart 57, which did not resolve the problem. Instead I get the green screen (I think that is what everyone refers to as the GSOD, green screen of death?) Now it just loops through a reboot getting to that green screen and then reboots again.

We replaced the drive, using the knoppix tools to assist with the process. But all it did was copy over to the new drive whatever problem existed on the old drive.

We want to get another Series 3 Tivo anyway, so I was thinking if we got a new one we could copy the contents of it's drive to the new drive we want to have in the old Series 3 Tivo.


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## smashtheqube

Sadara said:


> We replaced the drive, using the knoppix tools to assist with the process. But all it did was copy over to the new drive whatever problem existed on the old drive.


Yeah it's not a failed drive, I talked to Tivo support.
This is a bug in their software and they are releasing a patch ASAP.


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## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> We want to get another Series 3 Tivo anyway, so I was thinking if we got a new one we could copy the contents of it's drive to the new drive we want to have in the old Series 3 Tivo.


You cannot copy recordings to a new Tivo. The only Tivo that can play back the recordings are the one that recorded them. They are encrypted using a crypto chip.



smashtheqube said:


> Yeah it's not a failed drive, I talked to Tivo support.
> This is a bug in their software and they are releasing a patch ASAP.


I don't believe you can say that with certainty unless you start with a fresh image (a la InstantCake). IC currently does not have an image for the TivoHD, only the S3.


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## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> We're trying to decide from two options, buy another Series 3 Tivo, use the drive from it to copy everything over to the old Series 3 Tivo with the new drive. Or just order a new upgrade drive. We do want another HD Tivo.
> 
> Still trying to decide.


You could get a new Tivo and backup the image using WinMFS (or use the old knoppix disc method with a dd copy). Then restore the WinMFS backup to another same model Tivo (S3 to S3, TivoHD to TivoHD, but not S3 to TivoHD). You just can't do a full copy an expect the recordings to work. I believe you will have to do a Clear & Delete Everything for it to even function correctly.

InstantCake will get you the image w/o needing to buy antoher box, just not for the TivoHD. I am not sure where you can get a TivoHD image at currently.


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## Sadara

greg_burns, I have an S3, not an HD Tivo. Thank you for the link to InstantCake and filling in some gaps in info there. I read something some where about not being able to use OEM drives, which is what my 500 GB drive is. But, I'll give it another go with this drive, see what happens.

Thanks a bunch!!


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> greg_burns, I have an S3, not an HD Tivo. Thank you for the link to InstantCake and filling in some gaps in info there. I read something some where about not being able to use OEM drives, which is what my 500 GB drive is. But, I'll give it another go with this drive, see what happens.
> 
> Thanks a bunch!!


The only OEM drives (and now retail) that is problematic is the newer WD green drives, specifically the 1TB WD10EACS. The problem may include smaller sizes as well of those WD green ones.

This 1TB WD drive (WD AV-GP) is known to work in both S3 and TivoHD as the internal drive.

This thread has all the gory details.


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## snitm

smashtheqube said:


> Yeah it's not a failed drive, I talked to Tivo support.
> This is a bug in their software and they are releasing a patch ASAP.


Tivo contacted me last night regarding the coax lockup problem. They didn't have any news on a patch. They requested run the kickstart 54 to perform the SMART hard drive tests and report back with the results.

All tests passed except the "extended test" which failed with "fail 7". The CSR didn't know how to interpret that failure code but said Tivo engineering would.

So at least for my case I do have some doubt that the internal drive is working 100%. Have others with this coax lockup problem been recently asked by Tivo to do a kickstart 54 too? What were your results?


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## smashtheqube

snitm said:


> So at least for my case I do have some doubt that the internal drive is working 100%. Have others with this coax lockup problem been recently asked by Tivo to do a kickstart 54 too? What were your results?


I haven't been contacted, I'm a little annoyed but not really. Sh*t happens... I don't *need* my TV but the Tivo has been unplugged for like a week now so I'm a little bummed at most.


----------



## madneon

The funny thing is this thread is 8 months old and my most recent S3 tivo has had the *EXACT*same problem as the OP. Several software updates since then also, ( and still the same problem) could it be a combo of buggy software and Western Digital drives??
I (as well as a few others) have since changed the drives and put on a good copy of tivo software and the problem seems to go away....hummmm


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## kirkfrey

I was contacted by support last week and asked to run the 54 test - failed 7. when I called back to report the results they said it was a bad drive and are shipping a new box out. Sounds like I should prepare the wife for it to happen all over again. I hope not but...


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## madneon

kirkfrey said:


> I was contacted by support last week and asked to run the 54 test - failed 7. when I called back to report the results they said it was a bad drive and are shipping a new box out. Sounds like I should prepare the wife for it to happen all over again. I hope not but...


Trust me I know your pain this is my 3rd S3 and it took enough just to get the wife calmed down about the first 2 dying on me so far this one ( with the new drive) is hangin in there but I still call home from work to see if its still working just to be safe. good luck with the "new" one.


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## NSX

madneon said:


> I (as well as a few others) have since changed the drives and put on a good copy of tivo software and the problem seems to go away....hummmm


When I changed my drive, I copied the TiVo software from the original Western Digital that I removed from the box that was causing problems. The problem disappeared. So it was definitely a hard drive issue and not a TiVo software problem. I kept all my shows, settings, CableCard info, etc. and just transferred it on to my new drive!

I hate Western Digital drives with a passion. I've had 4 hard drives crashes in my lifetime. All of them have been Western Digital.

YMMV


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## snitm

kirkfrey said:


> I was contacted by support last week and asked to run the 54 test - failed 7. when I called back to report the results they said it was a bad drive and are shipping a new box out. Sounds like I should prepare the wife for it to happen all over again. I hope not but...


Interestingly the Tivo CSR manager I've been dealing with does _not_ want to replace my S3 yet even though Kickstart 54 failed with "fail 7".

I asked: if it were the harddrive how is it that I can stream an HD recording off my TivoHD to my S3 and watch it realtime without _any_ problems?

He agreed that the verdict is very much out on what the problem is.. said it may very well be the S3 hardware going bad (that is other than harddrive, e.g. the tuner).. given the only issue is when the coax is connected.


----------



## richsadams

snitm said:


> Interestingly the Tivo CSR manager I've been dealing with does _not_ want to replace my S3 yet even though Kickstart 54 failed with "fail 7".
> 
> I asked: if it were the harddrive how is it that I can stream an HD recording off my TivoHD to my S3 and watch it realtime without _any_ problems?
> 
> He agreed that the verdict is very much out on what the problem is.. said it may very well be the S3 hardware going bad (that is other than harddrive, e.g. the tuner).. given the only issue is when the coax is connected.


My money is on the hard drive. Any takers?


----------



## Sadara

Well, I put the 250 GB drive back in my Tivo and ran the Kickstart 54, did not fail, everything I tested passed. I'm still getting the green screen of death. That InstaCake thing someone suggest didn't do a thing for my situation. As far as I can tell the software doesn't really work.


----------



## richsadams

Sadara said:


> Well, I put the 250 GB drive back in my Tivo and ran the Kickstart 54, did not fail, everything I tested passed. I'm still getting the green screen of death. That InstaCake thing someone suggest didn't do a thing for my situation. As far as I can tell the software doesn't really work.


Unfortunately KS54 is only able to run TiVo's diagnostics and won't necessarily find every problem a hard drive can experience. If you really want to find out if there is a drive problem you'll need to pull it, connect it to a PC and run a full-blown diagnostic program from one of the manufacturers (Hitachi, WD, etc.) or a program like SpinRite. An in-depth test (full disk read/write/read) will likely reveal the problem.

Instant Cake won't fix a bad hard drive, it will only place a fresh TiVo image that will work for the specified model (any except TiVo HD). If the drive is problematic, it will continue to fail.

If you're still getting the GSOD it means that TiVo is encountering data corruption which it cannot resolve. A new hard drive is in order. Since you have IC, you should be able to image the new drive and be back in business in no time.


----------



## Sadara

The problem with IC is that I have a working 500GB Seagate Sata drive and IC seems to be unable to recognize the drive. It will only recognize IDE drives. I was either sent the wrong software from DVRUpgrade or the software simply doesn't work with Sata drives.

I'll give it another try in the morning, it's way too late and I'm not thinking straight now.


----------



## richsadams

Sadara said:


> The problem with IC is that I have a working 500GB Seagate Sata drive and IC seems to be unable to recognize the drive. It will only recognize IDE drives. I was either sent the wrong software from DVRUpgrade or the software simply doesn't work with Sata drives.
> 
> I'll give it another try in the morning, it's way too late and I'm not thinking straight now.


Ah ha! It does sound like you have the wrong version of IC. (I believe you have a Series3?). If so, contact them for another download. Their customer service is quite good.

If that's the case, you may be able to re-image your existing drive with the correct version of IC. :up:

Sleep tight!


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> The problem with IC is that I have a working 500GB Seagate Sata drive and IC seems to be unable to recognize the drive. It will only recognize IDE drives. I was either sent the wrong software from DVRUpgrade or the software simply doesn't work with Sata drives.
> 
> I'll give it another try in the morning, it's way too late and I'm not thinking straight now.


Instant Cake for the S3... the Sata drivers on the Linux distro does not detect every type of Sata chipset (AHCI) apparently. There is a thread here that says that is the reason tech support has given for why you cannot download the S3 image, you must have it snail mailed. Their logic: most people will need to buy the IDE->Sata adapter too.

Others have posted success using the IC disc with their Sata systems w/o using an adapter. So obviously YMMV.


----------



## snitm

richsadams said:


> My money is on the hard drive. Any takers?


I'm not convinced it isn't the harddrive but if it is I think we've all got a serious problem. It says to me that the S3 is extremely fragile when it comes to harddrive tolerances.

As I said before: if it were the harddrive how is it that I can stream an HD recording off my TivoHD to my S3 and watch it realtime without _any_ problems?

I can't see the coax magically pushing the harddrive harder than streaming off the TivoHD and watching while streaming.

But I may humor you and make my S3's 1TB eSATA drive the internal drive in the near future. I'm not convinced that is worthwhile though as I'll lose capacity and open a can of worms if/when I do need a replacement S3 from Tivo (put the old drive back in, etc).


----------



## greg_burns

snitm said:


> I'm not convinced it isn't the harddrive but if it is I think we've all got a serious problem. It says to me that the S3 is extremely fragile when it comes to harddrive tolerances.


How is it more fragile the same drive being in a PC? Neither would function very well if it had issues.

Why don't you hook to a PC and check it? Very simple and then you would know.


----------



## richsadams

snitm said:


> I'm not convinced it isn't the harddrive but if it is I think we've all got a serious problem. It says to me that the S3 is extremely fragile when it comes to harddrive tolerances.
> 
> As I said before: if it were the harddrive how is it that I can stream an HD recording off my TivoHD to my S3 and watch it realtime without _any_ problems?
> 
> I can't see the coax magically pushing the harddrive harder than streaming off the TivoHD and watching while streaming.
> 
> But I may humor you and make my S3's 1TB eSATA drive the internal drive in the near future. I'm not convinced that is worthwhile though as I'll lose capacity and open a can of worms if/when I do need a replacement S3 from Tivo (put the old drive back in, etc).


It's certain that some people are having problems, but seeing as there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of Series3's in the wild, the numbers of complaints about hard drive failure here are probably no higher than the norm for anything employing a hard drive. I've had one HDD failure in about eight TiVo's and many more in less computers. That doesn't help your situation though.

Quite a number of people have resolved their problems by replacing their hard drives. Based on their stories and many others, your observation about TiVo's processing abilities being fragile is an understatement IMHO.

The MRV question is a good one. Although it isn't actually "streaming" (TiVo buffers it like any other data) the information isn't delivered via cable card or even an OTA/coax method, so it sounds more like an I/O processing problem that TiVo's hard drive cannot handle. Again, my money is still on the hard drive.

On a side note...I missed that you have an eSATA drive attached. Have you replaced your eSATA cable with one of the recommended ones? (Section III, #26) Or have you tried running your TiVo w/o your eSATA drive attached? Just curious if there's any connection with the issues you're seeing.

I can highly recommend installing your 1TB eSATA drive internally (exactly what I did about six months ago). If you find you need more real estate you can always add a new eSATA drive later. (Although if you upgrade the internal drive it will take a little more effort because it can't be done by plug and pray...but marrying a new drive to it with WinMFS is really a no-brainer.) Plus if you ever want to return TiVo to its makers (and if you've decided not to do that now) you can simply pop the old drive back in and as long as you don't leave your torx screwdriver inside, TiVo will be none the wiser.


----------



## snitm

greg_burns said:


> How is it more fragile the same drive being in a PC? Neither would function very well if it had issues.
> 
> Why don't you hook to a PC and check it? Very simple and then you would know.


I'm saying Tivo's software implementation is possibly flawed; and Tivo's own unwillingness to replace my S3 at this point speaks to them acknowledging that possibility. Now that said, I have no idea how Tivo's software would enable the harddrive to be fine for some sustained heavy IO (e.g. transferring HD programs via MRV and watching simultaneously) yet when connecting the coax the Tivo just up and dies.

Is there some sort of heartbeat that Tivo writes to the disk only when the coax is connected and that region of the disk is bad? Only Tivo knows their software well enough to answer that but something is clearly fragile about Tivo.

But I agree, if the drive truly has issues it is no different to connect it to a PC to see as much. Which utility do you recommend to test the drive with my PC? A WD utility? Or SpinRite? Or what?


----------



## snitm

richsadams said:


> It's certain that some people are having problems, but seeing as there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of Series3's in the wild, the numbers of complaints about hard drive failure here are probably no higher than the norm for anything employing a hard drive. I've had one HDD failure in about eight TiVo's and many more in less computers. That doesn't help your situation though.
> 
> Quite a number of people have resolved their problems by replacing their hard drives. Based on their stories and many others, your observation about TiVo's processing abilities being fragile is an understatement IMHO.
> 
> The MRV question is a good one. Although it isn't actually "streaming" (TiVo buffers it like any other data) the information isn't delivered via cable card or even an OTA/coax method, so it sounds more like an I/O processing problem that TiVo's hard drive cannot handle. Again, my money is still on the hard drive.
> 
> On a side note...I missed that you have an eSATA drive attached. Have you replaced your eSATA cable with one of the recommended ones? (Section III, #26) Or have you tried running your TiVo w/o your eSATA drive attached? Just curious if there's any connection with the issues you're seeing.
> 
> I can highly recommend installing your 1TB eSATA drive internally (exactly what I did about six months ago). If you find you need more real estate you can always add a new eSATA drive later. (Although if you upgrade the internal drive it will take a little more effort because it can't be done by plug and pray...but marrying a new drive to it with WinMFS is really a no-brainer.) Plus if you ever want to return TiVo to its makers (and if you've decided not to do that now) you can simply pop the old drive back in and as long as you don't leave your torx screwdriver inside, TiVo will be none the wiser.


I understand that with MRV it isn't using coax, cablecard, etc. But it is actively writing to the harddisk. Yes, when I'm simultaneously watching the buffer as it is transfered from my TivoHD to the S3 I could very easily be reading the data directly out of the Linux buffer cache. So if the network is fast enough (which it is), and the S3 has enough memory to buffer the writes, and I'm actively reading the pages that the tivo is also writing... it could all "magically" work out that I'm blind to harddrive problems.

But the nature of the lockup when the coax is connected is instantaneous extreme unresponsiveness. Almost like Linux is getting way too many interrupts. These interrupts can't be generated by the harddrive (and/or disk controller) or I'd see some sign of them with my MRV use-case. It really does feel like a tuner anomaly but time will tell...

As for your question on my eSATA cable.. Yes, I've upgraded it to a shielded eSATA cable that is on the approved list.

Given that I'm gradually watching and/or transferring all shows that were saved on my S3 in preparation for (possibly) sending the S3 back to Tivo I'll first try to take steps to fix the issue. Be it with my 1TB drive and/or test if simply removing the eSATA drive (divorcing the drive) helps at all.

Thanks for your continued insights.


----------



## greg_burns

snitm said:


> Which utility do you recommend to test the drive with my PC? A WD utility? Or SpinRite? Or what?


SpinRite would be ideal, but it costs $90. 

A free choice that I use is Hitachi Drive Fitness test. Although WD test is just fine too.

If you make a bootable CD pray it has the drivers you need for your mobo to see your Sata drives. May run into same problem as IC did. I believe you can run the WD from within Windows, but then you risk dorking your Tivo drive's bootpage.

I had a problem with my external eSata drive. I don't know if the cable was loose or not. But I divorced and added it straight back (after testing it to be certain) and haven't had a problem since. Probably was loose cable, or maybe something was just gummed up.

The reason I believe that is because of the days went I was upsizing my S3 drive using knoppix method. Something about the cablecards would cause horrible pixelation, that would go away if I reimaged a second time. Made no sense. The software is definately fragile in that sense. But I can't imagine how somebody would write software to deal with a failing harddrive. (Maybe I don't have a good enough imagination).


----------



## rethinking

Stop with all these fixes! My HD Series 3 stopped working right after the 9.3 update. I have nothing fancy hooked up, no external hd only the hdmi to the television. Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none! Not from the guys trying to sell you Tivo extras and not from Tivo. Tivo admits (kinda) that it's a software problem. But they have no estimate on the fix and start to get slightly annoyed if you keep calling them to ask about it. We're just supposed to wait until they can solve it. A few days, maybe a few months. Meanwhile, I have a very expensive Tivo HD that won't watch or record any hd, so that means my big expensive tv cannot watch any hd programming. How do they get away with this?


----------



## greg_burns

rethinking said:


> Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none!


----------



## Sadara

I feel doomed. We got the sata/ide adapter, managed to get our 500 gb drive setup and in the Tivo, got most of the configuration done, minus the need to talk to cox about redoing the cards. The problem now is that when we got 99&#37; of the way done with the configurationm, the THX screen comes up and then it freezes. So, tomorrow we're going to InstantCake the 250GB drive.

I'm wondering if I should have just warrantied the Tivo to begin with. This is a PITA.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> I feel doomed. We got the sata/ide adapter, managed to get our 500 gb drive setup and in the Tivo, got most of the configuration done, minus the need to talk to cox about redoing the cards. The problem now is that when we got 99% of the way done with the configurationm, the THX screen comes up and then it freezes. So, tomorrow we're going to InstantCake the 250GB drive.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should have just warrantied the Tivo to begin with. This is a PITA.


Have you ran any diagnostics on either drive yet?

Western Digital Data Lifeguard Diagnostics

Hitachi Drive Fitness Tool


----------



## Sadara

greg_burns said:


> Have you ran any diagnostics on either drive yet?


Well I've run every diagnostic that I could on the 250GB, which has the GSOD issue.

I haven't done any diagnostics on the 500GB drive yet. I fear running the kickstart 57, since that's what ultimately started the GSOD on the 250 GB drive. I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> Well I've run every diagnostic that I could on the 250GB, which has the GSOD issue.
> 
> I haven't done any diagnostics on the 500GB drive yet. I fear running the kickstart 57, since that's what ultimately started the GSOD on the 250 GB drive. I'm open to suggestions.


I am not talking about Tivo diagnostic Kickstarts. Put the drive in your PC again and run Western Digital burn in on the 500GB. (See the links in my last post)

Hitachi has an advance test you can run as well. I don't know if it has a read/write test or not.

Edit: it appears the Hitachi does not have a destructive write test, just an advancded read test. WD has both. You can run the Write Zeros to the drive to really test it out. (Obviously you will have to reimagre afterwards.) Presumably, if it couldn't write to the drive it would notify you as such.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> The problem now is that when we got 99% of the way done with the configurationm, the THX screen comes up and then it freezes.


You may want to try ejecting the cable cards (don't swap them!). See if it will boot the whole way and let it settle down before reinserting them.


----------



## Sadara

greg_burns said:


> You may want to try ejecting the cable cards (don't swap them!). See if it will boot the whole way and let it settle down before reinserting them.


I did do that and it does come up, I could get in to the messages and settings, etc. Something interesting and probably a dumb question, the tivo service number is showing up as "not available 0000000000000", how do I tell Tivo what it's service number is suppose to be or will it figure it out eventually on it's own?

I'm calling cox in the morning to get the cable cards paired again (that'll be fun) and we're going to get the eSata drive connected as well. Which that should also be a fun process considering what we'll have to do since we upgraded the internal drive.


----------



## richsadams

rethinking said:


> Stop with all these fixes! My HD Series 3 stopped working right after the 9.3 update. I have nothing fancy hooked up, no external hd only the hdmi to the television. Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none! Not from the guys trying to sell you Tivo extras and not from Tivo. Tivo admits (kinda) that it's a software problem. But they have no estimate on the fix and start to get slightly annoyed if you keep calling them to ask about it. We're just supposed to wait until they can solve it. A few days, maybe a few months. Meanwhile, I have a very expensive Tivo HD that won't watch or record any hd, so that means my big expensive tv cannot watch any hd programming. How do they get away with this?


Welcome to the forum. Sorry you're having problems and it's too bad that you feel so helpless. A lot of us understand the frustration caused by a CE product of any nature doesn't do what it's supposed to do.

If you care to review the posts on this forum you'd see that historically every time an upgrade is released there have been a flurry of reports of TiVo's not working properly. Often times a simple reboot cures the issue, sometimes it takes a bit more including replacing hard drives that were borderline or replacing the whole unit...sometimes something in between. The fixes that you'd care not to hear about have resolved all but a few hardcore failures over the years. Like it or not, those are the facts.

If you'd like to live w/o TiVo and hope that another update or software patch of some nature may fix it you may be in the dark for a long, long time but that's certainly your choice. Are any of the issues we run into now and then fair, right or acceptable? Most often the answer is absolutely not, but that's for another thread...particularly if you just want to complain which is pretty easy for anyone to do.

Being proactive is what most of the members are about here and a lot of good people have helped a lot of others out. The support and advice on this forum is free...you get what you pay for and you're free to take it...or leave it.


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## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> Something interesting and probably a dumb question, the tivo service number is showing up as "not available 0000000000000", how do I tell Tivo what it's service number is suppose to be or will it figure it out eventually on it's own?


It used to be after running IC you were suppose to immediately do a Clear & Delete Everything. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Seems to me if you do that, then Tivo Magic won't occur (where you SPs return).

I can't find release notes for the S3 version of IC. I would play it safe and do that C&DE before messing with those cards.

I would hold off on the external drive for awhile until you are satisfied things are working correctly.

Once you get your cards repaired, do a yourself a favor and backup your setting using WinMFS.


----------



## Sadara

greg_burns said:


> It used to be after running IC you were suppose to immediately do a Clear & Delete Everything. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Seems to me if you do that, then Tivo Magic won't occur (where you SPs return).
> 
> I can't find release notes for the S3 version of IC. I would play it safe and do that C&DE before messing with those cards.
> 
> I would hold off on the external drive for awhile until you are satisfied things are working correctly.
> 
> Once you get your cards repaired, do a yourself a favor and backup your setting using WinMFS.


The 500 GB drive is what is in the Tivo now, it's a fresh drive, nothing was retained from the old drive so there shouldn't be any SPs to recover. I find with doing a Clear and Delete everything, I'm not sure how to do that exactly.

The tech is coming out Saturday to repair the cards.

The hack we tried to force the Tivo to recognize the eSata drive with the internal drive upgraded didn't seem to work so I'm off to do more research on that.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> The 500 GB drive is what is in the Tivo now, it's a fresh drive, nothing was retained from the old drive so there shouldn't be any SPs to recover. I find with doing a Clear and Delete everything, I'm not sure how to do that exactly.
> 
> The tech is coming out Saturday to repair the cards.
> 
> The hack we tried to force the Tivo to recognize the eSata drive with the internal drive upgraded didn't seem to work so I'm off to do more research on that.


I understand it is a fresh drive. But your SPs are stored on Tivo servers and can be "magically" restored if you put a fresh drive in a box with same the TSN. (See the link I posted above). Only, TivoPony says this won't happen if you do a Clear & Delete Everything from the menu. You do that from the Menu you go to restart the Tivo.

Messages & Settings->Reset or Restart Tivo->Clear & delete everything

I would play it safe and just do the C&DE and sacrifice the SPs.

A C&DE would not be necessary if this was a restore from your own backup, but it is not. It was from IC image. I swear I've read that C&DE is no longer necessary with IC, but I can't find that note anywhere.


----------



## r'dog

I've read these threads and still don't understand what to do.
i have 2 series 3 tivo units. one works fine, the other started locking up last week. after doing the usual re-boots with a tivo tech on the phone, tivo did a box swap and sent me a refurbished series 3. I tried setting that up last night and got the welcome screen and then a blank screen. after tivo csr's tried to start the unit again, basically following the unplug for 15 seconds and try again method, they said the 2nd unit was bad and are now sending me another replacement unit.

both boxes have 2 cablecards and did work before last week, and since one still works, i assume it's hardware and not software related. i am on cablevision on LI. 
the lock up/freeze,pixelation, slowness has only happened on the one unit and it continued to freeze and reboot even without the cablecards installed, leaving me to believe it's not a cable card issue, but either a tivo hardware/software issue, or as stated in a previous post, possibly an issue with getting too strong a signal? if that was the case though, the other unit should also be experiencing problems and it's not. I can always unplug the cable amplifier that cablevision installed, but i doubt that's the issue.

so i'm just checking in so when i get my new/refurbished series 3 tomorrow and try it i have a plan in case it get's stuck too.


----------



## richsadams

r'dog said:


> I've read these threads and still don't understand what to do.
> i have 2 series 3 tivo units. one works fine, the other started locking up last week. after doing the usual re-boots with a tivo tech on the phone, tivo did a box swap and sent me a refurbished series 3. I tried setting that up last night and got the welcome screen and then a blank screen. after tivo csr's tried to start the unit again, basically following the unplug for 15 seconds and try again method, they said the 2nd unit was bad and are now sending me another replacement unit.
> 
> both boxes have 2 cablecards and did work before last week, and since one still works, i assume it's hardware and not software related. i am on cablevision on LI.
> the lock up/freeze,pixelation, slowness has only happened on the one unit and it continued to freeze and reboot even without the cablecards installed, leaving me to believe it's not a cable card issue, but either a tivo hardware/software issue, or as stated in a previous post, possibly an issue with getting too strong a signal? if that was the case though, the other unit should also be experiencing problems and it's not. I can always unplug the cable amplifier that cablevision installed, but i doubt that's the issue.
> 
> so i'm just checking in so when i get my new/refurbished series 3 tomorrow and try it i have a plan in case it get's stuck too.


As you've read, TiVo's processing is very sensitive signal-wise. I'd certainly remove any amps, spitters, etc. from the mix (add a brand new, quality coax from the wall if possible) and see if the box in question begins preforming properly. If so, reintroduce any peripherals until you narrow down the culprit (if any).

Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## greg_burns

r'dog said:


> i have 2 series 3 tivo units. one works fine, the other started locking up last week.


Why don't you swap positions in your home with each other. That would do aware with a signal issue question wouldn't it?


----------



## rethinking

Wow, that's a welcome? Geez, I was only suggesting, based on my personal experience, that if your Tivo is freezing or rebooting since the 9.3 update that you contact Tivo and find out first if it might be a software problem. If you run diagnostic tests on your own, theyll only want you to do it again. Ive heard replacing hard drives or complete Tivos doesnt solve this problem. This seems to be a pretty wide spread problem and I keep seeing more and more posts about it. Which may suggest they are still sending out the flawed updates. They might want to rethink their policy of updating software without asking. Whoops, sorry I guess that doesnt belong in this thread.
It cant hurt to find out from them first if your problem is software. If it is, the more people who report it maybe the quicker the fix. I was told they really have no time estimate for the fix. Try complaining, its easy.


----------



## r'dog

greg_burns said:


> Why don't you swap positions in your home with each other. That would do aware with a signal issue question wouldn't it?


that is a great idea. clearly i should have thought about that. when i get the new box, i'll install it where the existing one is. i'll keep you posted on monday when i get the new unit.


----------



## greg_burns

rethinking said:


> Wow, that's a welcome? Geez, I was only suggesting, based on my personal experience, that if your Tivo is freezing or rebooting since the 9.3 update that you contact Tivo and find out first if it might be a software problem.


You've just dismissed the hundreds of threads in your first post where people replace their drive (or simply reimage) and it fixes their problem. Yeah, it takes work on your part, but what else you gonna do? Sit on your hands and wait for 9.4?



rethinking said:


> If you run diagnostic tests on your own, they'll only want you to do it again.


If the Tivo KickStarts aren't helping, move to the HD manufacturer's diagnostics. It may very well be a failing drive. No CSR is ever going to suggest you pull drive and hook it up to your PC for testing. But that is what you are going to need to do to truly test it.



rethinking said:


> I've heard replacing hard drives or complete Tivos doesn't solve this problem.
> .


You have a link to a thread where somebody replaced their drive and it didn't solve their lockup issues? I don't really recall any myself. I am being serious.

Tivo seems to love to send out refurbished Tivos as replacements. And as evidenced in this forum, some of those are no better than the one it is meant to replace. :down:



rethinking said:


> This seems to be a pretty wide spread problem and I keep seeing more and more posts about it. Which may suggest they are still sending out the flawed updates. They might want to rethink their policy of updating software without asking. Whoops, sorry I guess that doesn't belong in this thread.
> It can't hurt to find out from them first if your problem is software. If it is, the more people who report it maybe the quicker the fix. I was told they really have no time estimate for the fix.


A Tivo CSR will say *anything* at all they think you want to hear. Until TivoJerry or another Tivo employees that visits this forum, comes here and tells us their is a software problem with 9.3 I won't believe it.



rethinking said:


> Try complaining, it's easy.


And not very effective at fixing your Tivo. 

Oh, BTW, welcome to TCF!


----------



## hmm52

Not that my one S3's behavior has any statistical significance, but I've observed less freezing and rebooting in recent weeks, not more. It was only at a rate of 2-3 times per week or so previously. Since 9.3 update I haven't seen GSOD once - something that appeared uncomfortably often in first 2 months of use. Component cables used with primary TV; HDMI through switch with secondary TV; cablecards; Seagate eSATA. Probably jinxed myself......

Is there actually a faster upper Delaware?


----------



## greg_burns

hmm52 said:


> Is there actually a faster upper Delaware?


Anything above the canal (i.e. Wilmington, etc.) would fall in that category.


----------



## richsadams

rethinking said:


> Wow, that's a welcome? Geez, I was only suggesting, based on my personal experience, that if your Tivo is freezing or rebooting since the 9.3 update that you contact Tivo and find out first if it might be a software problem. <snip>


Only "suggesting a call to TiVo"? Um...your words...


rethinking said:


> Stop with all these fixes! My HD Series 3 stopped working right after the 9.3 update. I have nothing fancy hooked up, no external hd only the hdmi to the television. Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none! <snip>


Welcomes are usually a bit more cordial when folks avoid jumping into the middle of the conversation and start giving advice about something based on little knowledge other than their singular experience and a lot of second-guessing. I could just as easily say that everyone here is crazy. All of my TiVo's are working perfectly fine after receiving their updates (which they are). That would be just as nonsensical.

Folks here have been dealing with various TiVo problems for years. The current issue you're seeing is nothing new. Unfortunately problems have reared their ugly heads before and they no doubt will again. Things happen when upgrades happen...to some people. It's not "wide spread" or the end of the world.

Agreed, calling TiVo is a good idea. But Greg's right, with so many variables no CSR will be able to resolve all problems. Once the call is made some will wait and see what happens, hoping for the best. Others will try some of the "fixes" that actually do work and they will be enjoying their TiVo once again.

Welcome and keep us posted on how you successfully resolve whatever ails your TiVo!


----------



## ZechTech

hmm52 said:


> Not that my one S3's behavior has any statistical significance, but I've observed less freezing and rebooting in recent weeks, not more. It was only at a rate of 2-3 times per week or so previously. Since 9.3 update I haven't seen GSOD once - something that appeared uncomfortably often in first 2 months of use. ...


Same observation here too. Instead of several reboots per day (since I got it end of Jan) I haven't seen one in about a week. I've got 9.3a-01-2-648, the only other thing I changed was setting the video output format to 1080i Fixed from Native. Every time it rebooted it would reset the output format to 480i, but after setting it to 1080i Fixed it wouldn't change it. That was about a week ago too.

I've started to watch HD on both tuners and play back HD with out any slow downs or reboots. Hope it stays that way...


----------



## Sadara

Well, whatever was wrong with the 250GB drive, the problem is gone now. We've IC'ed the 250GB Drive and stuck it in the S3 Tivo. Did the clear and delete everything and we also did the Kickstart 62 for our non-Western Digital external drive. Since the software is still 8.0 it added it just fine. Cox will be here on Saturday morning to add the cable cards.

Now I'm crossing my fingers that the screen freeze and pixilation problem doesn't happen again.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> Well, whatever was wrong with the 250GB drive, the problem is gone now. We've IC'ed the 250GB Drive and stuck it in the S3 Tivo. Did the clear and delete everything and we also did the Kickstart 62 for our non-Western Digital external drive. Since the software is still 8.0 it added it just fine. Cox will be here on Saturday morning to add the cable cards.
> 
> Now I'm crossing my fingers that the screen freeze and pixilation problem doesn't happen again.


Force some updates and get that puppy up to 9.3 before Cox comes. See if it still works.

Did you run the WD (or Hitachi) diagnostics on the original 250GB? A reimage may just be masking an underlying problem.


----------



## rethinking

Whoa, did that guy just dissect my post? This is exactly why more people dont participate in these forums. I thought this was a help forum. I was just trying to pass along some information that might have helped anyone whose Tivo may have stopped working properly (lock up, freezing or rebooting) after the recent 9.3 software update. As an average Tivo user, with limited knowledge of all things Tivo and based solely on my own personal experience with a Series 3 HD Tivo, I thought it might help to let people know that, in my case at least, it was a software problem that they were aware of at Tivo and were working to fix. 
Hows that? I didnt claim it solved everyones problem, I wasnt dismissing all the fixes in this thread and I certainly didnt realize I was intruding in the middle of an ongoing discussion. This seemed to be the best category to post under at the time. (Again, that thread thing.) I think Ill just find a kinder, gentler forum that encourages input, even from folks with limited knowledge, singular experiences and a lot of second guessing.


----------



## greg_burns

rethinking said:


> Whoa, did that guy just dissect my post? This is exactly why more people don't participate in these forums. I thought this was a help forum.


And I am trying to help you. This is a help forum. You post something, people reply. You don't have to like what they say. If you disagree with something, say so!


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## Sadara

greg_burns said:


> Force some updates and get that puppy up to 9.3 before Cox comes. See if it still works.
> 
> Did you run the WD (or Hitachi) diagnostics on the original 250GB? A reimage may just be masking an underlying problem.


I honestly cannot help but wonder if I took a software problem with 9.3 and made it worse. We did do diagnostics on the drive and it's fine. I'm forcing updates now, we'll see how it goes.


----------



## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> I honestly cannot help but wonder if I took a software problem with 9.3 and made it worse. We did do diagnostics on the drive and it's fine. I'm forcing updates now, we'll see how it goes.


By diagnostics you mean the manufacturer's, not just Kickstarts, right??


----------



## richsadams

rethinking said:


> As an average Tivo user, with limited knowledge of all things Tivo and based solely on my own personal experience with a Series 3 HD Tivo, I thought it might help to let people know that, in my case at least, it was a software problem that they were aware of at Tivo and were working to fix.<snip>


That's probably what you should have said in the first place...that you were told by a TiVo CSR that they thought that you had a software problem and that others should call TiVo as well. That would have been helpful. But in your very first post here you began giving advice as in "_Stop with all these fixes!_" and "_Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none!_" That was your advice and others here including me took issue with it.

Advising people about what to do or not do is a little more dicey. Having knowledge about the subject matter isn't required nor is thick skin but you do risk getting your feelings hurt when someone replies to your posts, pointing out where you may have gone wrong. (It's happened to me more times than I care to remember!). That's the nature of an ongoing discussion which is what forums are all about.

There are well over four million active TiVo subscriptions. Thousands of "TiVo people" have found their way here based on their common interest; generally more than 1,000 will be on line here at any one time. It's clear that many people do and have been participating for years whether they have problems or just want to shoot the breeze. It's really a very good place to share information and get help when needed.

So, again...welcome. I for one would be more than happy to hear how things are going and what worked for you with regard to getting your TiVo back in the pink. :up:


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## Sadara

greg_burns said:


> By diagnostics you mean the manufacturer's, not just Kickstarts, right??


Yes!

By the way, it's up to 9.3a and so far so good. Of course, I haven't recorded anything with it yet. We'll see how it goes when I do that!


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## greg_burns

Sadara said:


> Yes!


----------



## richsadams

Sadara said:


> By the way, it's up to 9.3a and so far so good. Of course, I haven't recorded anything with it yet. We'll see how it goes when I do that!


Ours are on 9.3a as well but a few reports of 9.3c are filtering in...no idea what the difference(s) might be.

Glad to hear things are back to normal! :up:


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> Ours are on 9.3a as well but a few reports of 9.3c are filtering in...no idea what the difference(s) might be.


AFAIK, 9.3c is for S2s w/ the antenna setup problem...
www.tivo.com/priority


> There is a new service update available for Series2 customers using antenna as a signal source. Software version 9.3c is currently rolling out to Series2 customers currently using antenna as a signal source.


TivoJerry post


----------



## Gremal

I'm weighing in with my observations as well. I just received a new (refurbished) replacement for my first Series 3. Like many here, I had problems that can be described as hanging, pausing and system shutdown/restart that eventually progressed to make HDTV impossible to watch. The problems then became increasingly worse on standard definition broadcasts (I'm using antenna only, no cards) until the Series 3 was totally worthless. Could not recognize any channels or even display the proper time.

It seems obvious to me this is not a hardware problem. This is a software/firmware problem that Tivo and its engineers are not taking seriously. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the software/firmware is responding to massive amounts of data streaming in from HDTV broadcasts by telling the hard drive to partition itself into increasingly small sectors that eventually crash the system. At first, the symptoms are hanging or system restart or pixellation. It progresses to the point that the Tivo becomes worthless.

I hope 9.3c fixes the problem, but frankly 9.2 to 9.3 did nothing to help it. :down:

This is very troubling to me because last night my new (refurbished) unit showed the very beginnings of these symptoms that I know from experience deteriorate until my Tivo becomes a glorified doorstop. Guess I should get on the phone to customer support now and try to be proactive.


----------



## greg_burns

Gremal said:


> It seems obvious to me this is not a hardware problem. This is a software/firmware problem that Tivo and its engineers are not taking seriously. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the software/firmware is responding to massive amounts of data streaming in from HDTV broadcasts by telling the hard drive to partition itself into increasingly small sectors that eventually crash the system. At first, the symptoms are hanging or system restart or pixellation. It progresses to the point that the Tivo becomes worthless.


I don't own a TivoHD, just an S3 so I can only speak from my personal experience. But I've been running my S3 from almost release day back in 2006 on the original drive (plus an eSata drive) with *no* issues.

YMMV of course.

As you are probably aware  I am not of the opinion it is a software problem. If it is, there must be some other environmental issue at play.


----------



## Gremal

greg_burns said:


> I don't own a TivoHD, just an S3 so I can only speak from my personal experience. But I've been running my S3 from almost release day back in 2006 on the original drive (plus an eSata drive) with *no* issues.


HD requires a much larger amount of data streaming onto the drive, constantly. As I said, even after I was unable to watch or record HD, I had some luck watching SD content. It requires much less of the hard drive.



> As you are probably aware  I am not of the opinion it is a software problem. If it is, there must be some other environmental issue at play.


Hardware issues are best exemplified by a lightbulb. One day you'll turn it on and it works. The next day it won't work. That's what happens when hard drives fail, for example. Of course, the hard drive is eventually failing on these series 3s, but the reason they are failing is clearly software/firmware-related. Although I do agree there are other issues at play, such as HDMI or perhaps a virus. That is precisely why Tivo engineers need to pay close attention to these symptoms, or we will never have a cure and Tivo will just be in the business of refurbishing our systems with new drives, which will then be rendered worthless and the cycle will repeat.

I was delighted a couple weeks ago when one low-level customer support guy I got on the phone told me it was pointless for Tivo to send a new unit because the same thing could happen to it. I was supposed to talk to an engineer, but no one ever got in touch with me until my S3 was destroyed, and then exactly what I and the customer support person predicted has now come to pass.


----------



## greg_burns

Gremal said:


> HD requires a much larger amount of data streaming onto the drive, constantly. As I said, even after I was unable to watch or record HD, I had some luck watching SD content. It requires much less of the hard drive.


Edit: which side of this are you arguing anyways? Sounds like you are saying it is harddrive problem, not software... 

All I record is HD...

Recording 2 HD streams and playing back a third is not very taxing to a modern harddrive.



> Hardware issues are best exemplified by a lightbulb. One day you'll turn it on and it works. The next day it won't work. That's what happens when hard drives fail, for example.


Harddrives can stop working (dead lightbulb), or can develop bad sectors (resulting in weird lockups, pixelation, etc.).

Virus? Are you serious? 

People seem to believe everyone with a series 3/TivoHD running 9.3 is having problems. That clearly is not the case.


----------



## Gremal

greg_burns said:


> All I record is HD...


Oh, I misinterpreted your "I don't own a TivoHD" statement to mean you weren't using your Tivo for HDTV.



> Recording 2 HD streams and playing back a third is not very taxing to a modern harddrive.


It's a heckuva lot of data, but yeah, read, write and seek speeds should allow it...unless there is a problem which there clearly is.



> Virus? Are you serious?


Dead serious. Why do you think a virus is out of the question. Viruses have been known to kill hard drives before, and with the Tivo always hooked up to the network, the possibility exists.



> People seem to believe everyone with a series 3/TivoHD running 9.3 is having problems. That clearly is not the case.


I'm glad your Series 3 is working and hope it continues to, but you cannot imagine the problems my Tivo has caused me. I have spent hours trouble-shooting. I have swapped out hard-to-reach cables that required moving really heavy gear. I have missed my favorite shows and sports games for weeks. I have spent a lot of work time and free time on the phone with Tivo support. Time I will never get back or get reimbursed for.

I and others most definitely are experiencing problems and if Tivo stands behind its products, the problem should be fixed. Doesn't matter if it's every customer with a Series 3 or one customer with a Series 3. Customer support is customer support, and right now, it's not happening.

Tivo even charged me full price for my refurbished unit--more than I paid for my original unit. And I will not be reimbursed until my dead unit is received at their Texas warehouse, supposedly. That kind of treatment just added insult to injury. They even wanted me to pay for shipping, but I talked sense to the rep.


----------



## greg_burns

Gremal said:


> Dead serious. Why do you think a virus is out of the question. Viruses have been known to kill hard drives before, and with the Tivo always hooked up to the network, the possibility exists.


Obviously, nothing is out of the realm of possibility. But Tivo is a closed system. This has been discussed before, and the consensus is it is extremely unlikely.



Gremal said:


> It's a heckuva lot of data, but yeah, read, write and seek speeds should allow it...unless there is a problem which there clearly is.


A problem, sure. But the problem (possibly) is because of a bad drive (or a bad image, or bad something else). A properly working harddrive has no problem keeping up.



Gremal said:


> I'm glad your Series 3 is working and hope it continues to, but you cannot imagine the problems my Tivo has caused me. I have spent hours trouble-shooting. I have swapped out hard-to-reach cables that required moving really heavy gear.


I do sympathize. But we all are running the *same software *on the same hardware (platform relative of course). If yours doesn't work, then something is wrong and it needs fixed. If you don't want to attempt to try repairing it yourself, then returning it for repair is your only option you've left yourself.



> I and others most definitely are experiencing problems and if Tivo stands behind its products, the problem should be fixed. Doesn't matter if it's every customer with a Series 3 or one customer with a Series 3. Customer support is customer support, and right now, it's not happening.


What other than replacing your system with working hardware would you have them do? I would be great if they could push a fresh image down to see if that helps, but they can't.


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## Sadara

Gremal, I can completely understand what you are talking about. I've already refurbished a Tivo before, they charged me full price PLUS $50, when I got the broken Tivo send back, they refunded the full price and I was still out $50 out of my pocket. Really lacks customer service in my opinion. This experience is why I went through all the hoops I felt I needed to in order to "fix" my Tivo myself. Ultimately a CD I ordered allowed me to write the Tivo software to the Drive again. So far, things are running good on it, in the morning I'll get the cable cards configured again.

I also believe that this problem is not a hardware problem. I believe it's software and I agree that a virus isn't totally out of the question.


----------



## Scopeman

Sadara said:


> I also believe that this problem is not a hardware problem. I believe it's software....


I've just gotten a second fee refund from the Tivo support phone line. They required a manager's approval because, according the to CSR, so many people have been calling and asking for the fee back as a result of the problems with rebooting and pixelation, etc.

This tells me two things:

1. They have a widespread issue
2. They are sensitive to the revenue loss associated with a lot of people calling and asking for refunds of their fees.

Here is the call to action:

CALL TIVO SUPPORT @ 877-367-8486, ask for your monthly fees back due to problems with 9.3. Don't take no for an answer. Tell your friends with s#s to call also.

Heck - even if you DO NOT have the issue, please call and take the free $. You benefit (free money), I benefit (Tivo pays more attention to the issue) and in the long run, we all may benefit if they see a more closely corrlated relationship between their errors and quality control problems and their revenue stream.


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## snitm

Scopeman said:


> Here is the call to action:
> 
> CALL TIVO SUPPORT @ 877-367-8486, ask for your monthly fees back due to problems with 9.3. Don't take no for an answer. Tell your friends with s#s to call also.
> 
> Heck - even if you DO NOT have the issue, please call and take the free $. You benefit (free money), I benefit (Tivo pays more attention to the issue) and in the long run, we all may benefit if they see a more closely corrlated relationship between their errors and quality control problems and their revenue stream.


I have no problem with Tivo customers wanting a credit for service they've not received but to call for people without problems to call and say that they do, that's retarded.

Spoken like a real spinelessly opportunistic jacka$$.

Yes let's make Tivo hurt unnecessarily so so that we really don't have an alternative to the cableco's DVR. As someone who has had an inopperable S3 for over a month because of this coax-connected-makes-the-tivo-die issue I can easily say there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with the inconvenience of Tivo's current S3 woes.

I'm electing to _attempt_ to fix the issue myself by testing my drive(s) and reimaging as needed; saves me the $50 fee for a refurb.


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## bobquin

snitm said:


> I have no problem with Tivo customers wanting a credit for service they've not received but to call for people without problems to call and say that they do, that's retarded.
> 
> Spoken like a real spinelessly opportunistic jacka$$.
> 
> Yes let's make Tivo hurt unnecessarily so so that we really don't have an alternative to the cableco's DVR. As someone who has had an inopperable S3 for over a month because of this coax-connected-makes-the-tivo-die issue I can easily say there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with the inconvenience of Tivo's current S3 woes.
> 
> I'm electing to _attempt_ to fix the issue myself by testing my drive(s) and reimaging as needed; saves me the $50 fee for a refurb.


+1....beautifully put.


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## Sadara

snitm said:


> I have no problem with Tivo customers wanting a credit for service they've not received but to call for people without problems to call and say that they do, that's retarded.
> 
> Spoken like a real spinelessly opportunistic jacka$$.
> 
> Yes let's make Tivo hurt unnecessarily so so that we really don't have an alternative to the cableco's DVR. As someone who has had an inopperable S3 for over a month because of this coax-connected-makes-the-tivo-die issue I can easily say there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with the inconvenience of Tivo's current S3 woes.
> 
> I'm electing to _attempt_ to fix the issue myself by testing my drive(s) and reimaging as needed; saves me the $50 fee for a refurb.


+1

As much as I could probably call Tivo and get my fee back, I am not going to make that call.

I've done the work I needed to in order to get my Tivo back to what I hope is working order. I won't know this for certain until after Cox visits tomorrow to setup the cable cards all over again. I even managed to get 30 of my 68 season passes back without my need to do anything.

While I do think this is a fairly widespread problem, I do not see the benefit of sticking it to Tivo. They are by far the very best DVR option on the market.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I have seen more people post for the first time in this forum specifically because of the problems they are having with their Tivo. I wonder how many people are having this problem but wouldn't have a clue about this forum or posting here.


----------



## lrhorer

Gremal said:


> Dead serious. Why do you think a virus is out of the question. Viruses have been known to kill hard drives before, and with the Tivo always hooked up to the network, the possibility exists.


It seems you know little of viruses and nothing of TiVos.

1. How many viruses do you know of which can attack Linux systems? The number is minuscule.

2. The fact the TiVo is attached to the internet is not relevant. It has a built in firewall, and the number of ports on which it listens is very limited. More importantly, the only port on which it ever downloads anything is a secure port connected to TiVo, Inc.

3. The TiVo's root partition is read-only. Even if something attempted to download itself to the root partition, it wouldn't work. The boot partition isn't even mounted. It's been a while since I looked at the boot partitions, so I could be misremembering, but I don't think the boot partitions even can be mounted.

4. Even if the code were downloaded to /var, it would never be executed. The TiVo doesn't execute code from its downloads or from /var. The closest thing to this is an upgrade, which is accomplished via implementing slices from code already running on the TiVo, not by executing downloaded code. Unless the virus is already existing in the running code, there's no way to load and execute a virus from an external source.

5. The TiVo kernel checks for alien software at boot time and removes it from the box if it finds it. The chain of trust prevents the TiVo from even booting unless the kernel is valid.

Between the fact the box is running Linux, the fact it is firewalled, and the existence of the chain of trust, having a virus enter the box is to all intents and purposes a practical impossibility. This isn't a laptop running Windows.


----------



## richsadams

Gremal said:


> Hardware issues are best exemplified by a lightbulb. One day you'll turn it on and it works. The next day it won't work. That's what happens when hard drives fail, for example.


I've been sitting back watching some of the back-and-forth with your posts and I might agree with some of what you've posted but your HDD/light bulb analogy sent me over the edge.  Hard drive failure can take place over an extended period of time as sectors/blocks become corrupted or initially damaged sectors begin being written to, read/write heads deteriorate, borderline circuit board connections start eroding, etc. I/O data error correction can mitigate some of the issues but not always and after a period of time the drive can eventually fail. That is specifically why many issues (slow-downs, non-response, freezing, etc.) escalate over time. A failing hard drive can cause exactly what you and others are reporting. That's not to say that HDD issues are the only problem of course.



Gremal said:


> Of course, the hard drive is eventually failing on these series 3s, but the reason they are failing is clearly software/firmware-related.


Again, there is no evidence to support such a statement. Although software and/or firmware can be problematic in a number of ways, it cannot cause a hard drive to fail. Period. Based on that eventually all TiVo's would fail and clearly tens of thousands of them including all of ours have been working without a problem since day one (heading for two-years for our Series3) using the very same software, OS, firmware, chipsets, etc., etc. as everyone else is using.

The amount of stress placed on TiVo hard drives is minuscule by comparison to what enterprise servers demand 24/7. TiVo's ability to process data may be called into question, but their operating systems and programs do not have the ability to cause a hard drive to fail.



Gremal said:


> I was delighted a couple weeks ago when one low-level customer support guy I got on the phone told me it was pointless for Tivo to send a new unit because the same thing could happen to it.


TiVo CSR's, although generally trying to do their best, are legendary for making statements that have no relationship to reality. TiVo customer service suffers the same revolving door problems that other companies do so don't give what they're telling you much weight.

Making blanket statements about technical issues based on little technical knowledge may make some folks feel better about their situation, but they are rarely helpful. We can all sympathize with others that have had or are having problems with their TiVo's. The problems are real and need to be addressed. But be sure you know something about what you're talking about before going off on some tangent that ruins your credibility from the get-go.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> AFAIK, 9.3c is for S2s w/ the antenna setup problem...
> www.tivo.com/priority
> 
> TivoJerry post


Missed that one. So much info...so little time.  Thanks! :up:


----------



## Sadara

Well, this morning I'm not as confident about it being a software problem. One of our cable cards was in need of replacement. We'll see as the day goes along how the Tivo performs, but I am beginning to think that our problems were the result of a bad cable card.


----------



## JcarD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the TIVO scam............

The Series 3 does not work in certain markets due to cablecard/software incompatibility issues. In my experience, the cablecards fail after about 3 weeks. I was losing my service about every 72 hours and unplugging the unit and rebooting will correct the problem a few times before you have to get different cablecards.

I purchased my Series 3 from TCS in Feb 08. I was told that Cox Cable was the problem and I swapped out cablecards 4 times. TIVO then agreed to swap my unit for a "refurbed" unit that they said would work. It failed 4 days after the cablecards were installed. Now after about 30 minutes, the picture begins to pixelate and the eventually freezes.

I called TIVO today and demanded my money back. They cancelled my sub but said that I can not return the unit because it is not the original unit that I purchased and I am outside the 30 day window.

Lesson: If your TIVO HD doesn't work properly right out of the box, return it immediately.


----------



## richsadams

JcarD said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Here's the TIVO scam............
> 
> The Series 3 does not work in certain markets due to cablecard/software incompatibility issues. In my experience, the cablecards fail after about 3 weeks. I was losing my service about every 72 hours and unplugging the unit and rebooting will correct the problem a few times before you have to get different cablecards.
> 
> I purchased my Series 3 from TCS in Feb 08. I was told that Cox Cable was the problem and I swapped out cablecards 4 times. TIVO then agreed to swap my unit for a "refurbed" unit that they said would work. It failed 4 days after the cablecards were installed. Now after about 30 minutes, the picture begins to pixelate and the eventually freezes.
> 
> I called TIVO today and demanded my money back. They cancelled my sub but said that I can not return the unit because it is not the original unit that I purchased and I am outside the 30 day window.
> 
> Lesson: If your TIVO HD doesn't work properly right out of the box, return it immediately.


Ouch! That's a very nasty story. Your TiVo should still work using an antenna which will get you all of your local HD and SD channels but that's obviously not what you were expecting. (Plus of course you need to be within range of your broadcast television tower array.)

Where are you located and what cable service do you have? Do you know what kind of cable cards you have/had?

I wouldn't give up hope completely. It was quite obvious a number months back that cable cards were a serious problem, particularly for TiVo HD's and the cableco's using Scientific Atlanta cable cards. The combination of the two was deadly...macroblocking, freeze-ups, etc. TiVo was able to address almost all of that with a couple of subsequent software releases.

It's obvious though that cable cards continue to be a problem for a number of TiVo owners. But in all fairness if you visit some of the other A/V forums you'll find all sorts of horror stories about cable card problems from people that use them in their televisions and even PC's. It's hard to know who to blame (although the SA cards seem to be Yugo's compared to Motorola CC's.)

Appreciate the feedback, and can only say try not to give up...things may improve. If you don't go the antenna route you can try selling it I suppose. But how aggravating.


----------



## hmm52

JcarD said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Series 3 does not work in certain markets due to cablecard/software incompatibility issues. In my experience, the cablecards fail after about 3 weeks. I was losing my service about every 72 hours and unplugging the unit and rebooting will correct the problem a few times before you have to get different cablecards.
> 
> I purchased my Series 3 from TCS in Feb 08. I was told that Cox Cable was the problem and I swapped out cablecards 4 times. TIVO then agreed to swap my unit for a "refurbed" unit that they said would work. It failed 4 days after the cablecards were installed. Now after about 30 minutes, the picture begins to pixelate and the eventually freezes.
> 
> I called TIVO today and demanded my money back. They cancelled my sub but said that I can not return the unit because it is not the original unit that I purchased and I am outside the 30 day window.
> 
> Lesson: If your TIVO HD doesn't work properly right out of the box, return it immediately.


You certainly had a wretched time of it. It's usually go or no go with cablecards though. I haven't heard of such a miniscule lifespan even for SA cards. With Motorolas, I had 1 out of 4 die after 2.5 years. It doesn't matter to the cards whether you reboot or not; only to the TiVo.

I received 2 refurbs with problems worse than my original TiVo. So I'm glad I did not give it up first in an exchange. Better to have them sit on some money until you're satisfied.

It's unfortunate that you cancelled your subscription before attempting a resolution with management, not just the CSRs. Still worth a try. You're dead in the water otherwise.

I agree that a return to vendor is the prudent choice if you can't get good stable function within first 2-3 weeks - inclusive of cablecard craziness.


----------



## smashtheqube

rethinking said:


> Stop with all these fixes! My HD Series 3 stopped working right after the 9.3 update. I have nothing fancy hooked up, no external hd only the hdmi to the television. Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none! Not from the guys trying to sell you Tivo extras and not from Tivo. Tivo admits (kinda) that it's a software problem. But they have no estimate on the fix and start to get slightly annoyed if you keep calling them to ask about it. We're just supposed to wait until they can solve it. A few days, maybe a few months. Meanwhile, I have a very expensive Tivo HD that won't watch or record any hd, so that means my big expensive tv cannot watch any hd programming. How do they get away with this?


I agree, it's definitely a software issue. They themselves said so and are taking responsibility for it.



richsadams said:


> Ours are on 9.3a as well but a few reports of 9.3c are filtering in...no idea what the difference(s) might be.
> 
> Glad to hear things are back to normal! :up:


That got me excited, but I turned on my Series3 to get my Service Number... I already have 9.3a?? Oh well, didn't solve my issues


----------



## Sadara

I'm knocking on wood as I type this.

We have been just fine all day long. The only issues we've had are signal break up issues, which we get those once in awhile anyway. So far so good.

Just to say it again, two major things changed, the original drive was reimaged with InstantCake and we had to replace a CableCARD. No more screen freezes, no more GSOD.


----------



## jrm01

smashtheqube said:


> I agree, it's definitely a software issue. They themselves said so and are taking responsibility for it.
> 
> That got me excited, but I turned on my Series3 to get my Service Number... I already have 9.3a?? Oh well, didn't solve my issues


I believe that the 9.3c version was only a fix for S2 users with OTA problems.


----------



## richsadams

jrm01 said:


> I believe that the 9.3c version was only a fix for S2 users with OTA problems.


Yep. More here.


----------



## JimWall

I have concluded there are two problems. 
1: Hard drives do fail and the failure usually is not total. Just random sectors going bad. Sometimes it is so bad drive has to be replaced no matter how good the software is.
2: I had two machines with Hitachi 1 TB drives which started having issues after the 9.3 update but not the one with two 1 TB WD retail (first version). Thus issues would have to do with the a combination of the SATA controller and BIOS in TIVO and the linux device driver (software) and how well it handles sector errors and sets the top connection speed to the drive.

My problems went away when I replaced the Hitachi with WD. I want to add the Hitachi back as external drives but not until a device driver update is release the handle this drive better.
But I don't think this issue is unique to TIVO because I have booted the Hitachi 1 TB in two different PCs and the BIOS shows different speeds for SATA. Most important is one was not always to top speed. Sometimes they weren't even UDMA! Without negotiating top UDMA speed there is no way the interface can handle writing two video streams and will pause and/or hang.

The cable cards are SA with no problems except for rare times channels don't descramble and I simply reboot to solve problem. Probably because updates had by sent by TWC but TWC can't reboot TIVO remotely like their Set Top boxes.

Working configuration:
1 TIVO HD (1 M card and 1 TB WD internal)
1 TIVO S3 (2 S cards and 1 TB WD internal)
1 TIVO S3 (2 S cards and 1 TB WD internal and 1 TB WD external)
All cards are Scientic Atlanta so don't blame SA
Location is just north of Cincinnati


----------



## lrhorer

richsadams said:


> I wouldn't give up hope completely. It was quite obvious a number months back that cable cards were a serious problem, particularly for TiVo HD's and the cableco's using Scientific Atlanta cable cards.


TiVo owners are not the only ones who have had problems with their CableCards. In 2005, nine months before the S3 was introduced, I purchased a Mitsibish DLP Widescreen HD TV. The cable company went through 4 CableCards before they found one which would work. When I bought my first S3, I moved the working CableCard over to the S3, but the CATV company had to go through two more before they found one which would work in the TiVo. When I got my second TiVo, they went through six more trying to find a good one. They tried to get the problem off their plate by teling me it was the TiVo, so I insisted they swap the cards around, including trying the TV. Every working card continued to work fine no matter into which slot it was inserted, and every bad card failed no matter where it was inserted. So much for blaming the TiVo.

Note that one of my TiVos (my first S3), did fail about a month and a half after installation. I called TiVo and we walked through the issues, at which point they decided to replace the unit. Note also it did take two calls to TiVo tech support, instead of one, and I did have to hand-hold the techs through the troubleshooting.


----------



## lrhorer

JimWall said:


> Working configuration:
> 1 TIVO HD (1 M card and 1 TB WD internal)
> 1 TIVO S3 (2 S cards and 1 TB WD internal)
> 1 TIVO S3 (2 S cards and 1 TB WD internal and 1 TB WD external)


Wow, that's amazing. You have almost the same setup I do. My first S3 is 1 TB, just like yours, except that it is a 250G stock drive + a 750G Seagate. The 2TB S3 unit has a Hitachi rather than a WD as an external drive, but otherwise the set-ups are the same, including the number of cards in each unit.



JimWall said:


> All cards are Scientic Atlanta so don't blame SA
> Location is just north of Cincinnati


Yes, my personal experience has been that all the SA failures were out-of-box failures. Once they managed to find a working card, it continued to work. My CATV provider had to ultimately go through twelve CableCards to find the five now working in my systems, but none of the 5 working cards has ever been replaced. I ma not experiencing any of the errors reported by others.


----------



## lrhorer

richsadams said:


> I've been sitting back watching some of the back-and-forth with your posts and I might agree with some of what you've posted but your HDD/light bulb analogy sent me over the edge.


Even light bulbs can be intermittent. In fact I replaced an intermittent light bulb in my dining room just a few months ago. I can't count the number of flashlights I have had which occasionally needed a good whack from time to time to get them to turn on or achieve full brightness. In complex systems like the TiVo, hardware gremlins are famous for popping up from time to time.



JimWall said:


> Again, there is no evidence to support such a statement.


Indeed not.


----------



## lrhorer

Sadara said:


> I've already refurbished a Tivo before, they charged me full price PLUS $50, when I got the broken Tivo send back, they refunded the full price and I was still out $50 out of my pocket. Really lacks customer service in my opinion.


Requiring the customer to put up the cost of a new unit for cross shipping is extremely common throughout the entire electronics industry. That they do it at all is a courtesy, not a requirement, and anyone who cross-ships a unit of significant value to a consumer without requiring a deposit is foolish. Otherwise the odds of the consumer simply disappearing with the unit are high. Even discounting out-and-out larceny, without a deposit slow returns are problematical. Heck, it was a month and a half before I was able to return a bad Optoma projector (the 2nd bad one in a row, BTW), and they had $4000 of my money in their pockets. With the first bad projector, they had refused to even cross ship.


----------



## bizzy

Last time I heard, they were charging a deposit of almost twice what a new unit cost, direct from Tivo. That's sleazy enough. But charging a deposit based on the cost of a new unit, while cross-shipping a refurb is just plain wrong.


----------



## smashtheqube

I'm starting to get sick of waiting.


----------



## NSX

JimWall said:


> 2: I had two machines with Hitachi 1 TB drives which started having issues after the 9.3 update but not the one with two 1 TB WD retail (first version). Thus issues would have to do with the a combination of the SATA controller and BIOS in TIVO and the linux device driver (software) and how well it handles sector errors and sets the top connection speed to the drive.
> 
> My problems went away when I replaced the Hitachi with WD.


My 1TB Hitachi handled 9.3 with no issues whatsoever.

My Hitachi is the CinemaStar. If that even makes a difference (vs the Deskstar).


----------



## tharry

I just talked to tech support and the freezing/rebooting issues seems to be a harddrive issue with some s3's. Unplug your cable, then reboot, then plug cable back in and tune to a HD channel. If your s3 freezes when you plug the cable in, then you have the harddrive issue.

They do a swap at no charge. I was told by the tech person that this issue with the swap as a resolution just came accross his desk today.

I also had to talk to a second level person. The first person I talked to did not have a clue. Keep pushing to talk to someone who knows what is going on.


----------



## richsadams

tharry said:


> I just talked to tech support and the freezing/rebooting issues seems to be a harddrive issue with some s3's. Unplug your cable, then reboot, then plug cable back in and tune to a HD channel. If your s3 freezes when you plug the cable in, then you have the harddrive issue.
> 
> They do a swap at no charge. I was told by the tech person that this issue with the swap as a resolution just came accross his desk today.
> 
> I also had to talk to a second level person. The first person I talked to did not have a clue. Keep pushing to talk to someone who knows what is going on.


That's basically what we've been saying all along, although the "free swap" is a new one. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that was able to get a replacement (outside of the 30 day parts/labor warranty) for free.


----------



## datavortex

rethinking said:


> My HD Series 3 stopped working right after the 9.3 update. I have nothing fancy hooked up, no external hd only the hdmi to the television. Don't buy new hard drives or drive yourself crazy with fixes.There is none! <SNIP> Meanwhile, I have a very expensive Tivo HD that won't watch or record any hd, so that means my big expensive tv cannot watch any hd programming.


Quoted for truth.

v9.3 on Series 3 hardware can and does cause reboots among a huge swath of users - period. If you've not experienced this, congratulations, you are a lucky one, for now.

Keep calling, keep reporting. Let's make Tivo feel the outcome of releasing software that kills the S3's. My S3 is a brick right now too - just like so many of you out there. It is a software problem with 9.3/9.3a. If it takes burning through ten replacement units to prove the existence of the bug to the software engineers who either can't or won't fix it, then so be it. As long as I don't have to pay anything for the replacements in order to prove to Tivo that they released buggy software, this is my only recourse.

Call, complain, demand 9.3d. Wash, rinse, repeat. Call early and often.


----------



## richsadams

datavortex said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> v9.3 on Series 3 hardware can and does cause reboots among a huge swath of users - period. If you've not experienced this, congratulations, you are a lucky one, for now.
> 
> Keep calling, keep reporting. Let's make Tivo feel the outcome of releasing software that kills the S3's. My S3 is a brick right now too - just like so many of you out there. It is a software problem with 9.3/9.3a. If it takes burning through ten replacement units to prove the existence of the bug to the software engineers who either can't or won't fix it, then so be it. As long as I don't have to pay anything for the replacements in order to prove to Tivo that they released buggy software, this is my only recourse.
> 
> Call, complain, demand 9.3d. Wash, rinse, repeat. Call early and often.


Sorry to hear that your TiVo isn't doing well...it must be quite frustrating. However your post sounds very familiar to anyone that's been here for a while. I recall reading almost exactly the same things when 9.2x was released, and 9.1x and 8.2x and 7.1x, and...and...

The same issues surface every time theres a release. Something goes wrong, borderline hard drives fail, etc. There's always a flurry of complaints when an upgrade is released but after a while everything gets ironed out and things calm down again. Just because it happens that way does that make it okay? Absolutely not, in my book anyway. It's frustrating and maddening for the folks that it happens to and I can sympathize.

In about eight years we've had as many TiVo's. One failed and was replaced (nothing to do with an upgrade). Otherwise we've never really had an issue before, during or after any release. Since there are over four million TiVo subscriptions including thousands (tens of thousands?) of Series3's I'd wager our experience is the norm, not the exception or a matter of good luck.

Most of the people that find there way here usually have a problem. Granted others that have problems may not find their way here, but the idea that there is a "huge swath" of users having problems has never held water IMHO. A few dozen complaints on this forum or even a few hundred (which there aren't) would constitute a very small percentage of the total boxes in the wild experiencing problems. Again, I can sympathize with anyone that has issues. But hopefully there's some comfort in knowing that this sort of thing has happened before; it's been addressed and life goes on.

Quite a few people (including yours truly) have posted fixes that have worked for some. Unfortunately sometimes nothing works and a replacement is in order. Hang in there...try some of the fixes if you can and see what happens. If nothing works, I agree...you're right, continue let TiVo have an earful!


----------



## datavortex

richsadams said:


> Most of the people that find there way here usually have a problem. Granted others that have problems may not find their way here, but the idea that there is a "huge swath" of users having problems has never held water IMHO. A few dozen complaints on this forum or even a few hundred (which there aren't) would constitute a very small percentage of the total boxes in the wild experiencing problems. Again, I can sympathize with anyone that has issues. But hopefully there's some comfort in knowing that this sort of thing has happened before; it's been addressed and life goes on.


Rich,

I appreciate the optimism and friendliness of your relpy. I do however feel that your reply is somewhat dismissive when it comes to the facts, and fails to address the heart of the issue.

I cannot comment on the full breadth of information I used to form the opinion I posted above. I realize this sounds kinda idiotic and evasive, and for that you have my apologies. I have read the similar posts on the forum, however, and based on the complaints here and elsewhere, the problems cropping up immediately following a minor revision release is a correlation one cannot simply dismiss out of hand. It is less likely that hundreds (thousands?) of hard drives operating under different conditions, from different manufacturers, in different regions all collaborated and chose to fail on the same week, and only in a particular designation of Tivo unit. Additionally, most Tivo (and S3) users will not report their problems in this forum, and suggesting that the sample complaints gathered at this website when taken over the full amount of S3 owners is not a meaningful metric. Taken over the total S3 users that are active on these forums would be more meaningful, but not necessarily reliable.

There is no more plausible suggestion than a software bug, by a wide margin. These are problems reported on a single platform directly following a software release. The progression of symptoms across users and user subsets according to usage patterns is consistent, and not solved by user interaction. I appreciate that symptoms resembling these have appeared in the past, and have been resolved either by user actions, hardware swaps, and previous bugfixes issued by Tivo. This situation calls for the latter. It is my feeling that a unified community clamoring for a patch is the most useful application of effort.


----------



## greg_burns

datavortex said:


> There is no more plausible suggestion than a software bug, by a wide margin.


Drop a fresh image on a working drive and 9.3 works fine. Try it, you'll see for yourself.


----------



## richsadams

datavortex said:


> Rich,
> 
> I appreciate the optimism and friendliness of your relpy. I do however feel that your reply is somewhat dismissive when it comes to the facts, and fails to address the heart of the issue.
> 
> I cannot comment on the full breadth of information I used to form the opinion I posted above. I realize this sounds kinda idiotic and evasive, and for that you have my apologies. I have read the similar posts on the forum, however, and based on the complaints here and elsewhere, the problems cropping up immediately following a minor revision release is a correlation one cannot simply dismiss out of hand. It is less likely that hundreds (thousands?) of hard drives operating under different conditions, from different manufacturers, in different regions all collaborated and chose to fail on the same week, and only in a particular designation of Tivo unit. Additionally, most Tivo (and S3) users will not report their problems in this forum, and suggesting that the sample complaints gathered at this website when taken over the full amount of S3 owners is not a meaningful metric. Taken over the total S3 users that are active on these forums would be more meaningful, but not necessarily reliable.
> 
> There is no more plausible suggestion than a software bug, by a wide margin. These are problems reported on a single platform directly following a software release. The progression of symptoms across users and user subsets according to usage patterns is consistent, and not solved by user interaction. I appreciate that symptoms resembling these have appeared in the past, and have been resolved either by user actions, hardware swaps, and previous bugfixes issued by Tivo. This situation calls for the latter. It is my feeling that a unified community clamoring for a patch is the most useful application of effort.


I understand what you're saying and I agree that thousands of hard drives are not likely failing...nor do I believe that thousands of TiVo's are failing either. I also understand that the most recent upgrade has dealt a number of users a blow and would never discount the associated pain. But based on historical posts as well as current posts I feel safe in saying that the number of TiVo's affected isn't any higher than with previous upgrades (save for one) and consequently not as high as you'd imagine.

If you want to see some real angst, take a spin back through the posts from people that received an upgrade to their TiVo HD's last fall. The complaints were staggering compared to the current 9.3x issues. There was a serious problem associated with TiVo HD's and Scientific Atlanta cable cards at the time and it wasn't pretty. TiVo fixed things fairly fast but of course not quickly enough for anyone dealing with a misbehaving DVR. (SA cable cards still seem to be causing some problems, but most issues have been addressed it seems.)

Believe it or not, the symptoms described in this particular thread not only resemble but are very much identical to those posted in past threads after previous upgrades. Hardware, software, bug or no bug I'm just of the mind that things can clearly seem out of proportion when one sits and reads a thread filled with complaints (most all legit no doubt). Misery loves company and all of that. But the number of complaints here (as well as a few other threads) are no greater than after most upgrades in the past. I also am pretty certain that things will improve. Why you ask? Well, because they always have. 

Best of luck and again...try and hang in there! :up:


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Drop a fresh image on a working drive and 9.3 works fine. Try it, you'll see for yourself.


D'oh! Now you're giving away our secrets!


----------



## NSX

greg_burns said:


> Drop a fresh image on a working drive and 9.3 works fine. Try it, you'll see for yourself.


I agree 100%.

My S3 problem occurred a few days before 9.3 was released. If my problem happened after 9.3, I would at least try another HD before coming to any conclusion that it was the software upgrade that hosed it.

To add another data point and to back up richsadams post, my S2 40 hour died the same way as your S3 did. When a new release came out, it killed it. I tried all the KS methods and nothing worked. I went ahead and replaced the HD with an old TiVo image, forced several connections to get the latest upgrade, and it has been working fine since.

As greg_burns said, try a new hard drive and see for yourself.

YMMV,


----------



## greg_burns

Currently there isn't an InstantCake image for the TivoHD which is a big problem for those w/o a backup.

It is very odd that Tivos seem mostly to die only after an upgrade. There is of course the idea about it now is using the other partition, which supposedly is bad. I don't know if I believe that totally myself, but there is also no denying what works as a fix.


----------



## ZechTech

ZechTech said:


> Same observation here too. Instead of several reboots per day (since I got it end of Jan) I haven't seen one in about a week. I've got 9.3a-01-2-648 ...


Spoke too soon, as others have noted 9.3 has problems too.

Locked up and rebooted right after starting a transfer to PC. After reboot it worked fine. Then a few days later, pressed the Info button and the screen went all blue on HDMI connection, on composite it was a frozen video image, was fine again after it rebooted.

I think its better than 9.2 but still has a lot of problems. Glad I kept my Series 2DT, or I would have gone nuts by now.


----------



## kirkfrey

richsadams said:


> That's basically what we've been saying all along, although the "free swap" is a new one. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that was able to get a replacement (outside of the 30 day parts/labor warranty) for free.


i received my replacement unit late last week. I had to put the deposit down but other than that - it will be refunded - it was free, including return shipping.

So far, this unit is still working and has been upgraded to 9.3a.

A HD issue is possible it happens, we had to replace a series of close to 1000 HD's in our Blade environment due to a known manufacturing defect for that batch that we got. Stuff happens, while I was not overly happy with the "speed" with which it took to get my replacement unit, they did replace it for free...


----------



## JimWall

The link below says the folllowing
Windows XP and 2000 will disable DMA for a device after it encounters certain errors during data transfer operations. If more than six DMA transfer timeouts occur, Windows will turn off DMA and use only PIO mode on that device. In this case, the user cannot turn on DMA for this device. The only way to enable DMA mode is to uninstall and reinstall the device. 
Windows XP and 2000 will also downgrade the Ultra DMA transfer mode after receiving more than six Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Whenever possible, the operating system will step down one UDMA mode at a time (from UDMA mode 4 to UDMA mode 3, and so on).
http://www.hitachigst.com/hddt/know...6d67e65726fb486786256b65005b43eb?OpenDocument

This make we wonder what TIVO does. Maybe TIVO 9.3 started doing something similiar. I have no doubts that TIVO cannot handle writing two streams of HD and maybe even SD video if UDMA is reset down to PIO mode.


----------



## r'dog

after having a freezing, pixelation issue and tivo unable to resolve, the sent me a refurb unit, which didn't boot up. 
finally received the replacement to the replacement, and it seems to be working fine.
for what it's worth, after spending the various hours on the phone with tivo and the guys at cablevision, who seem to be very knowledgeable, i personally have concluded that it's a cable card issue. the cards are either "bad" or need to be reactivated. for some reason of the 4 tivo units i've had, it's always the cards in slot 2 that give me grief. perhaps when the tru2way cards replace the existing cards later this year, it will be better. 
thanks rich and everyone here for the support.


----------



## richsadams

r'dog said:


> after having a freezing, pixelation issue and tivo unable to resolve, the sent me a refurb unit, which didn't boot up.
> finally received the replacement to the replacement, and it seems to be working fine.
> for what it's worth, after spending the various hours on the phone with tivo and the guys at cablevision, who seem to be very knowledgeable, i personally have concluded that it's a cable card issue. the cards are either "bad" or need to be reactivated. for some reason of the 4 tivo units i've had, it's always the cards in slot 2 that give me grief. perhaps when the tru2way cards replace the existing cards later this year, it will be better.
> thanks rich and everyone here for the support.


Glad to hear things are getting back to normal. :up: FWIW it seems like CC's are able to produce any number of problems not only w/TiVo but according to a number of AVS Forum folks, their TV's, PC's, etc. I'm sure as service updates go TiVo is continuing to tweak their software...I doubt if cable card companies are as interested in improving things. 

Enjoy!


----------



## kirkfrey

kirkfrey said:


> i received my replacement unit late last week. I had to put the deposit down but other than that - it will be refunded - it was free, including return shipping.
> 
> So far, this unit is still working and has been upgraded to 9.3a.
> 
> A HD issue is possible it happens, we had to replace a series of close to 1000 HD's in our Blade environment due to a known manufacturing defect for that batch that we got. Stuff happens, while I was not overly happy with the "speed" with which it took to get my replacement unit, they did replace it for free...


So I hexed myself, came home last night and it was doing the same thing... dang it.

EDIT
_____________
so I just got off the phone with support and my second replacement is on the way! LOL


----------



## richsadams

kirkfrey said:


> So I hexed myself, came home last night and it was doing the same thing... dang it.


Grrrrrrr!!!!


----------



## snitm

kirkfrey said:


> So I hexed myself, came home last night and it was doing the same thing... dang it.
> 
> EDIT
> _____________
> so I just got off the phone with support and my second replacement is on the way! LOL


So does Tivo have new S3 replacement units available now (word was they were getting new units sometime in May) or are you still getting a refurb replacement?


----------



## puckettcg

My S3 is doing the same thing that others on this thread are mentioning - but I don't have cable cards. It was working fine a week ago. Sunday it was ridiculously sluggish. Noticed the rebooting issue Tuesday night. Tried unplugging - did the same thing when I plugged it back in. I've left it unplugged since then waiting for the weekend to check the forums on what to do. I don't know about the "upgrades" that went out - but my unit is only six months old, I haven't done anything to other than connect the eSata drive that I ordered from Tivo. I'm going to try the steps listed on this forum - but I am not happy.


----------



## wgw

One of my S3's started pausing, stuttering and flickering a few days ago. It took three restarts in a row, unplugging it each time, before the problem stopped. I went ahead and ran all the kickstarts to check the drive and reinstall the software anyway. Been working fine so far since then.


----------



## billyjoebob99

My Series 3 started freezing up and rebooting just before the 9.3 rolled out. After trying all sorts of fixes I ended up pulling the external drive. The freezing problems stopped and the Seagate diags showed multiple problems on the external drive. 

I got a replacent drive from Seagate and reconnected it after getting 9.3. Over a week now with lots of HD recordings and not a single problem.

I know the idea of pulling the external drive and losing its contents is not a fun thought. I was lucky in that the problem appeared to be a writing problem. I was able to pull the stuff recorded before the problem started with TiVo desktop.


----------



## kirkfrey

The wife had ComCast come out and put in thier DVR until this gets fixed. Its not a TiVo but its better than watching live TV. It is also better than a BROKEN TiVo - TiVo, if you are reading, people might be able to get use to other offerings, if it were me, I'd get this fixed asap!


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## snitm

So I finally got around to testing my S3's harddrive by connecting it to my PC.

I started off using the WD Diagnostic tool under Windows. The SMART test and Extended Test ran successfully (note: these were only read tests). I then decided to simply write all zeros to the drive and then restore my MFS backup. I didn't get very far because I noticed that it was progressing extremely slowly.. projected completion was 106 HOURS!?

So I stopped the write zeros test and rebooted into Linux. I ran some quick tests and it is now painfully clear that my harddrive is completely broken for writes! Using the dd utility I can only get ~650 KB/s on writes!?! Yet on reads I'm getting ~64 MB/s.

I'm a Linux software engineer that works for an enterprise distributed filesystem company. I make a living developing software for enterprise storage systems. I've _never_ seen a harddrive that can read at full speed but perform so horribly slow on writes... that said, I can't believe Tivo installs a WD Caviar drive in the S3; um isn't the S3 supposedly a "professional" product!? I'm highly disappointed in Tivo for skimping on the harddrive but... 

Looks like I'll be putting my 1TB WD GP drive (older model) into my S3 after all.


----------



## greg_burns

Interesting find on how it fails on writes only. Weird.



snitm said:


> Looks like I'll be putting my 1TB WD GP drive (older model) into my S3 after all.


Isn't the older model (WD10EACS) the problem one? (unless you have the very first release).

The newer WD10EVCS is the one that works in the S3 without soft boot problem.


----------



## CallieBrady

Tivo has posted on this issue. They are looking for feedback. Search on tivostephen and you will find some instructions on how to send feedback.


----------



## greg_burns

CallieBrady said:


> Tivo has posted on this issue. They are looking for feedback. Search on tivostephen and you will find some instructions on how to send feedback.


His was in the thread where the video stops and the audio continues. Mostly on TivoHDs.

Same issue? IDK.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6266120#post6266120


----------



## snitm

greg_burns said:


> Interesting find on how it fails on writes only. Weird.
> 
> Isn't the older model (WD10EACS) the problem one? (unless you have the very first release).
> 
> The newer WD10EVCS is the one that works in the S3 without soft boot problem.


Yes, the extremely slow writes but normal reads is quite weird. Seems fairly pathetic to me that Tivo's harddrive diagnostics (via kickstart) never actually perform a write test to the MFS filesystem to check all aspects of the drive's health. I shouldn't have had to connect my drive to my PC for testing to know that writes were horribly slow. The fact that Tivo support has strung me along for well over a month (by not wanting to replace my S3 cause "engineering is looking into the coax lockup issue") is also pathetic.

I really feel for the non-technical S3 owners that are hitting this issue; although Tivo likely just swaps there units out quickly because they don't seed Tivo support with detailed information (aka doubt).

Anyway, as for my drive revision, I have the very first release (32ZJB0) as is detailed here.

I recovered my S3 backup image onto my 32ZJB0 via WinMFS and installed it in my S3 last night. After doing so my S3 is as good as new. No more coax lockup issue.


----------



## greg_burns

snitm said:


> I recovered my S3 backup image onto my 32ZJB0 via WinMFS and installed it in my S3 last night. After doing so my S3 is as good as new. No more coax lockup issue.


I'll be sure to refer to your post in the future for those who's drive past just the "read" tests in WD or Hitachi tools.

I always thought the basic and extended test in WD and Hitachi did write to the drive. I assumed it read the data into memory, wrote it back to disk and attempted to read it back again as verification. Maybe it doesn't actually do that.

I thought the Write Zeros in WD was not so much a test, as just a way to wipe data. (Though I would recommend Boot and Nuke for that)

The Hitachi tool doesn't even have a "write" test specificallly then (if the Basic and Advanced don't do it.)


----------



## richsadams

snitm said:


> I recovered my S3 backup image onto my 32ZJB0 via WinMFS and installed it in my S3 last night. After doing so my S3 is as good as new. No more coax lockup issue.


Congrats on getting things back in working order again. :up: It's interesting how many people swear this is a software issue, yet when folks like you re-image or replace their hard drive the issues disappear. I don't think anyone should have to do that mind you, but...if it works...

I'm a Seagate man from way back and used to detest WD's products almost as much as Maxtor's.  I have to admit that the WD 1TB in our Series 3 has been performing flawlessly for about 7 months now and the WD in our TiVo HD hasn't hiccuped once. (Maybe Maxtor's have improved as well since Seagate purchased them...but I don't think I'll be finding out any time soon. ). In any case, enjoy your "new" TiVo and all of that real estate!


----------



## smashtheqube

I'm ordering a Weaknees kit today, Tivo refused to fix it because I'm an early-adopter and thus out of warranty... they wanted $149 so I was like "eff that" considering the delays of shipping the unit both ways, etc. Forget it.
:down:


----------



## jimbo1mcm

The forum members who have re-imaged their hard drives, and they work.....what image was put on the drive? Was in 9.2 or 9.3? And when the unit calls in and Tivo sees it is 9.2, won't it force an upgrade and the whole cycle starts again? Enlighten me!!!


----------



## NSX

Yes, it will be forced back to the latest version...

But most of us are trying to get this point across: It's not a software issue.

I have three S3's. Only one had the problem. I replaced the HD, it's now fine. The software I replaced it with was even the exact copy from the failing HD. I copied all my Season Passes, Recorded Shows, CableCARD info, settings, etc EVERYTHING from the original HD. So no data loss on my end. snitm's diagnosis of his HD made absolute sense in my case.


----------



## moyekj

So there must be something about a software update that exacerbates a pre-existing hard drive problem? It just seems like too much of a coincidence all these problems coincided with the 9.3a software update.


----------



## greg_burns

moyekj said:


> So there must be something about a software update that exacerbates a pre-existing hard drive problem? It just seems like too much of a coincidence all these problems coincided with the 9.3a software update.


I agree it is strange, but what could it possibly do to cause a drive to fail?


----------



## richsadams

moyekj said:


> So there must be something about a software update that exacerbates a pre-existing hard drive problem? It just seems like too much of a coincidence all these problems coincided with the 9.3a software update.


Bingo! You got it! Don Pardo, tell him what he's won! 

As mentioned time and time again, this sort of thing happens after every update...some updates are more prone to causing troubles than others and it seems 9.3x is one of the tougher ones. But it still remains that after an upgrade some people's hard drives start going south. Re-imaging some resolves the issue but some have to be replaced.

So is it a software issue? Well...yes and no. In the end the software upgrade does in fact work (often correcting earlier problems), it's some of the hard drives that fail for some reason.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> I agree it is strange, but what could it possibly do to cause a drive to fail?


Ahhhh...solve that mystery Grasshopper and you will be well on the way to having your own wing in the TiVo Hall of Fame.


----------



## kirkfrey

Ok, so my second replacement unit is on its way (hopefully) to me. I am assuming at this point that it will have the same issue. I really just want to be past this. What would be the best thing to do if it does fail? Do I put a new drive in it? Do I just keep sending them back? Its really disruptive and the wife is getting (even more) agrivated with each unit. Even the ComCast DVR is (slightly) better than nothing but we aren't smart enough to figure it out and just want a TiVo that works...

thoughts?

I want my TiVo back


----------



## richsadams

kirkfrey said:


> Ok, so my second replacement unit is on its way (hopefully) to me. I am assuming at this point that it will have the same issue. I really just want to be past this. What would be the best thing to do if it does fail? Do I put a new drive in it? Do I just keep sending them back? Its really disruptive and the wife is getting (even more) agrivated with each unit. Even the ComCast DVR is (slightly) better than nothing but we aren't smart enough to figure it out and just want a TiVo that works...
> 
> thoughts?
> 
> I want my TiVo back


I can sympathize. I can't imagine living w/o TiVo. Ours have been champs and I really have a lot of empathy for anyone that's been deprived. (And we went through a number of Comcast POS boxes which adds insult to injury). Hang in there. I'll go out on a limb and wager that your "new" TiVo will work fine. Odds are they replaced the hard drive and based on other posts, may have re-worked the tuners. Although they may not have it completely sorted out, it sounds as if they're making progress. Knock on wood (touching head) it will be a good one. :up:


----------



## smashtheqube

smashtheqube said:


> I'm ordering a Weaknees kit today, Tivo refused to fix it because I'm an early-adopter and thus out of warranty... they wanted $149 so I was like "eff that" considering the delays of shipping the unit both ways, etc. Forget it.
> :down:


New hard-drive arrived yesterday... no more problems.
Sucks I had to pay to maintain a box like this that I paid for 3-years service on... this will be my last Tivo hardware purchase.
:down:


----------



## greg_burns

smashtheqube said:


> New hard-drive arrived yesterday... no more problems.
> Sucks I had to pay to maintain a box like this that I paid for 3-years service on... this will be my last Tivo hardware purchase.
> :down:


You gonna try testing your old drive in a PC? I know I am interested in the result.


----------



## richsadams

smashtheqube said:


> New hard-drive arrived yesterday... no more problems.
> Sucks I had to pay to maintain a box like this that I paid for 3-years service on... this will be my last Tivo hardware purchase.
> :down:


I agree that having to replace your hard drive isn't something that you bargained for. But to be fair, I have one PC that's about three years old and I've replaced the hard drive twice because each one failed.

That said, I also have a Series1 and a Series2 with the original hard drives...but by comparison they are much smaller and do a good deal less duty than the one's in my Series3 and TiVo HD.

I don't think TiVo can be held any more responsible for hard drive failures than the PC manufacturers. They are using the same equipment after all. I'm more disappointed with hard drive manufacturers than anyone else.


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> I don't think TiVo can be held any more responsible for hard drive failures than the PC manufacturers. They are using the same equipment after all. I'm more disappointed with hard drive manufacturers than anyone else.


Don't think his beef with Tivo was that the drive failed. More that he had to repair it on his dime even though he is on a 3-year contract. That does suck!


----------



## bobquin

richsadams said:


> I don't think TiVo can be held any more responsible for hard drive failures than the PC manufacturers. They are using the same equipment after all. I'm more disappointed with hard drive manufacturers than anyone else.


My goodness, your posts around this issue have reeked of fanboyism to no apparent end. The Series 3 TiVo that I paid more than $500 for arrived and was literally unusable for three weeks due to the freezing issue before I packed it up and sent it back for a refund, anxious to be done with TiVo as a whole. Are you REALLY saying that I should be blaming the HD manufacturer instead?


----------



## richsadams

bobquin said:


> <snip>Are you REALLY saying that I should be blaming the HD manufacturer instead?


Well...thanks for paying attention...sort of. My exact statement was "_I don't think TiVo can be held any more responsible for hard drive failures than the PC manufacturers_." By that I meant that the hard drive failure rates are no different for a TiVo than any other computer. My frustration is with the HDD manufacturers that are turning out sub-standard products and selling them to TiVo as well as to me personally...and apparently to you too.

TiVo should stand behind everything in it according to their Terms of Service. TiVo will replace a unit free for the first 30 days or give you a 100% refund (I trust that's what you received), for $49 for a year and according to a number of posts for $149 for quite a while after that. Fair or not, they are abiding by their stated TOS. If TiVo (or any product) I own fails and it's out of warranty I'm not a happy camper, far from it. I might even lash out at people that like the product , but I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to fix it for free and I'd probably do it myself. That's how the world works.

Look, we've had about eight TiVo's in about as many years. All but one (a victim of hard drive failure) performed flawlessly. I've used several other cableco "DVR's" (all of which failed) and built a custom PC based DVR. TiVo is by far and away the best in their field. Am I a fan? Um, yes I absolutely am. I shouldn't be? Please.  Have I complained about TiVo's response to some issues? Yes I have, many, many times...or weren't you paying attention?

Instead of complaining and insulting people have I tried to help others who's TiVo's aren't working properly? Yes, many, many times...often successfully, other times not. You can be part of the solution or...


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Don't think his beef with Tivo was that the drive failed. More that he had to repair it on his dime even though he is on a 3-year contract. That does suck!


Agreed, it does indeed suck.


----------



## lupes

I posted this in another thread but thought it would be good to post it here as well......

A week after 9.3a, my Tivo began to slow down to the unusable stage, then video began to freeze and tapings were bad. Tivo wanted me to return it for a replacement, however, I wanted to test putting in a new drive, which I did with a 320GB WD.

I tested the old 250GB drive from my S3. I used the WD Diagnostics application and performed both the extended test as well as write all 0's. Both tests passed with flying colors.
Here is the report:
Test Option: EXTENDED TEST
Model Number: WDC WD25 00BS-55RPB1
Unit Serial Number: N/A
Firmware Number:
Capacity: 250.06 GB
SMART Status: Not Available
Test Result: PASS
Test Time: 03:27:19, May 17, 2008

Test Option: WRITE ZEROS
Model Number: WDC WD25 00BS-55RPB1
Unit Serial Number: N/A
Firmware Number:
Capacity: 250.06 GB
SMART Status: Not Available
Test Result: COMPLETE
Test Time: 07:29:22, May 17, 2008

Since putting in the new drive seemed to fix things, I decided to restore my saved image (I backed up without recordings to save time) to the old 250GB drive. I restored the image and have been running it for about four hours with no slow down or hesitation, just like putting in a new drive.

Since there seems to be nothing wrong with the old drive, and it runs in Tivo just fine with the backed-up image, I assume this means my issue was not related to hardware.

So now there are arguments against both hardware and software issues. This again leads me to think it may be a very fragmented drive. It could explain the slow-downs and freezing while my hard drive is still good and the 9.3a version of my Tivo OS is also working fine. I also have seen in other threads where some people cleared up HD freezing issues by purging their deleted folder - another nod to fragmentation.

Couple of caveats though. I did not save my Tivo image with recordings. It would be interesting for someone experiencing issues to backup the whole thing, including shows, and restoring to a new drive (would the fragmentation be passed on to the new drive?). Also, I only ran my Tivo on the old 250GB drive for about four hours, it is possible, though I don't think likely, the issues could come back quickly.

Anyways, hope this helps some people out. This gives you an option to not have to buy a new drive:
1) Take the old one out,
2) test it and make sure there are no errors on it,
3) copy your tivo image to a file (now you have a backup!) and
4) restore it back to the same drive.
Its a FREE way to see if you can fix your Tivo yourself.


----------



## AbMagFab

lupes said:


> I posted this in another thread but thought it would be good to post it here as well......
> 
> A week after 9.3a, my Tivo began to slow down to the unusable stage, then video began to freeze and tapings were bad. Tivo wanted me to return it for a replacement, however, I wanted to test putting in a new drive, which I did with a 320GB WD.
> 
> I tested the old 250GB drive from my S3. I used the WD Diagnostics application and performed both the extended test as well as write all 0's. Both tests passed with flying colors.
> Here is the report:
> Test Option: EXTENDED TEST
> Model Number: WDC WD25 00BS-55RPB1
> Unit Serial Number: N/A
> Firmware Number:
> Capacity: 250.06 GB
> SMART Status: Not Available
> Test Result: PASS
> Test Time: 03:27:19, May 17, 2008
> 
> Test Option: WRITE ZEROS
> Model Number: WDC WD25 00BS-55RPB1
> Unit Serial Number: N/A
> Firmware Number:
> Capacity: 250.06 GB
> SMART Status: Not Available
> Test Result: COMPLETE
> Test Time: 07:29:22, May 17, 2008
> 
> Since putting in the new drive seemed to fix things, I decided to restore my saved image (I backed up without recordings to save time) to the old 250GB drive. I restored the image and have been running it for about four hours with no slow down or hesitation, just like putting in a new drive.
> 
> Since there seems to be nothing wrong with the old drive, and it runs in Tivo just fine with the backed-up image, I assume this means my issue was not related to hardware.
> 
> So now there are arguments against both hardware and software issues. This again leads me to think it may be a very fragmented drive. It could explain the slow-downs and freezing while my hard drive is still good and the 9.3a version of my Tivo OS is also working fine. I also have seen in other threads where some people cleared up HD freezing issues by purging their deleted folder - another nod to fragmentation.
> 
> Couple of caveats though. I did not save my Tivo image with recordings. It would be interesting for someone experiencing issues to backup the whole thing, including shows, and restoring to a new drive (would the fragmentation be passed on to the new drive?). Also, I only ran my Tivo on the old 250GB drive for about four hours, it is possible, though I don't think likely, the issues could come back quickly.
> 
> Anyways, hope this helps some people out. This gives you an option to not have to buy a new drive:
> 1) Take the old one out,
> 2) test it and make sure there are no errors on it,
> 3) copy your tivo image to a file (now you have a backup!) and
> 4) restore it back to the same drive.
> Its a FREE way to see if you can fix your Tivo yourself.


It's still most likely a HDD issue. What were the SMART stats? Tests can pass easily, as SMART will mask a problem for quite some time.

By copying the image back, you effectively did a C&DE, which would likely have had the exact same effect had you done that on the original drive at the beginning. So for a while, you likely will be fine, but when you start to hit the bad areas again, the SMART will eventually exceed what it can do, and you'll fully fail.

Most likely scenario, IMO.


----------



## jimbo1mcm

Thanks for taking the time and effort to post your results. We need more stuff like this to get to the bottom of this problem.


----------



## lupes

AbMagFab said:


> It's still most likely a HDD issue. What were the SMART stats? Tests can pass easily, as SMART will mask a problem for quite some time.
> 
> By copying the image back, you effectively did a C&DE, which would likely have had the exact same effect had you done that on the original drive at the beginning. So for a while, you likely will be fine, but when you start to hit the bad areas again, the SMART will eventually exceed what it can do, and you'll fully fail.
> 
> Most likely scenario, IMO.


Will have to wait on the SMART info. I only have a usb connection to my drive and WD's diagnostic will not read SMART through this connection. When I ordered my new drive from newegg forgot it was OEM and no cables. This is my first SATA drive and so can't test it with a desktop. I have one on order from ebay. When it comes in I will check it out.


----------



## richsadams

lupes said:


> Will have to wait on the SMART info. I only have a usb connection to my drive and WD's diagnostic will not read SMART through this connection. When I ordered my new drive from newegg forgot it was OEM and no cables. This is my first SATA drive and so can't test it with a desktop. I have one on order from ebay. When it comes in I will check it out.


If your desktop is fairly recent it should have at least four or more SATA connectors on the mother board. SATA cables are only a couple of dollars. You might also need a 4 pin molex to 15 pin power adapter cable which will allow you to connect your existing power supply lead to your new SATA drive. Again, only a few dollars. Something like these would be what you're looking for:

SATA Cable

Molex to SATA power adatper.

I think you can find them cheaper at a local CE/PC store and you can probably find a "combo" pack.

Just a thought.


----------



## greg_burns

Doesn't the 250GB WD drive that came with S3 have both Molex and SATA power connections? Isn't that the drive he is trying to test for SMART failures?


----------



## bananaman

Add me to the list!

After various bizarre symptoms including a jammed DL.TV TiVoCast download, recorded shows split in two (probably due to reboots), and random freezes and reboots culminating in a permanent reboot loop, I confirmed that my Series 3 internal disk was going south.

I was able to get a WinMFS backup of the internal disk, and am temporarily running with the backup restored to the My DVR. I'm shopping for a new internal disk.

I bought my Series 3 in September 2006 and added a My DVR in December 2007. It has been rock steady until now. It seems to be victim of this outbreak of 9.3-related failures.

Thanks to all the helpful info and things I've learned in these forums I was able to get back up and running in a couple of hours :up:!


----------



## jimbo1mcm

Exactly how did you confirm the analysis that the hard drive was failing? Did you do a similar test to forum poster Lupes? I think we need some really complete analysis to help solve this problem. A new hard drive in 06 should not fail in the beginning of 08.


----------



## bananaman

I didn't run any tests (yet).

I backed up the original drive, then restored it, and all my Series 3 did was reboot loop. I restored the same backup to the My DVR, and my Series 3 came up clean first time, and is still behaving itself after about four hours. In fact it seems more responsive than it has been in a long time.


----------



## greg_burns

bananaman said:


> I restored the same backup to the My DVR, and my Series 3 came up clean first time, and is still behaving itself after about four hours. In fact it seems more responsive that it has been in a long time.


This may be obvious (and I'm just slow), but how did you do that? Did you pull the drive out of the My DVR and now have it as your internal drive.

Or did you just move the eSata cable on the mother board in your TivoHD (can't do that with the S3).

Or something else?


----------



## lupes

richsadams said:


> If your desktop is fairly recent it should have at least four or more SATA connectors on the mother board. SATA cables are only a couple of dollars. You might also need a 4 pin molex to 15 pin power adapter cable which will allow you to connect your existing power supply lead to your new SATA drive. Again, only a few dollars. Something like these would be what you're looking for:
> 
> SATA Cable
> 
> Molex to SATA power adatper.
> 
> I think you can find them cheaper at a local CE/PC store and you can probably find a "combo" pack.
> 
> Just a thought.


I have an old Dell 400SC which has two SATA connectors. Problem is I have never owned a SATA drive to this point and so no SATA cables. When I ordered my new WD drive I forgot OEM drives don't come with the cables. I have 20 IDE cables I've collected over the years, just no SATA cables

I was able to backup and restore the image using a USB hub I got off ebay a while back which has a SATA port. I also "borrowed" the Tivo's SATA cable in order to make the transfer. Problem is, the Tivo SATA cable is not removeable and getting my desktop and tivo close enough to test would be difficult.

I looked around locally for a SATA cable (even asked friends to borrow one) but all we have are big box electronics and computer stores which like to mark up SATA cables 1,000%. So I bought one off ebay last week for $5 (which has the molex to SATA adapter) and will have to wait for it to ship from Hong Kong.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Doesn't the 250GB WD drive that came with S3 have both Molex and SATA power connections? Isn't that the drive he is trying to test for SMART failures?


You're absolutely right...the TiVo drive does have both Molex and SATA power connections. I was just thinking about imaging a new SATA drive. 

So a SATA cable should do the trick.


----------



## richsadams

lupes said:


> I looked around locally for a SATA cable (even asked friends to borrow one) but all we have are big box electronics and computer stores which like to mark up SATA cables 1,000%. So I bought one off ebay last week for $5 (which has the molex to SATA adapter) and will have to wait for it to ship from Hong Kong.


1000%?!  Bast**ds! 

Got it and sounds good. I'd also like to know how the testing goes. TIA. :up:


----------



## richsadams

jimbo1mcm said:


> A new hard drive in 06 should not fail in the beginning of 08.


Agreed, it _shouldn_'t fail. But I've had HDD's fail after 90 days and I have some others here that are pushing to get into Leisure World. You just never know when/how a HDD will fail.


----------



## bananaman

greg_burns said:


> This may be obvious (and I'm just slow), but how did you do that? Did you pull the drive out of the My DVR and now have it as your internal drive.
> 
> Or did you just move the eSata cable on the mother board in your TivoHD (can't do that with the S3).
> 
> Or something else?


The drive is still in the My DVR, connected to the Series 3 motherboard by a data cable with SATA on one end and eSATA on the other. Of course the My DVR drive is powering itself. This was the most expedient way I could think of getting my Series 3 back up.


----------



## greg_burns

bananaman said:


> The drive is still in the My DVR, connected to the Series 3 motherboard by a data cable with SATA on one end and eSATA on the other. Of course the My DVR drive is powering itself. This was the most expedient way I could think of getting my Series 3 back up.


Oh, you have an S3 not a TivoHD? I know all about running an eSata cable from the motherboard out to external drive.

jlib and I were cutting holes in ours cases to do that. 

If you d have a TivoHD, you can just move the sata plug over one on the motherboard and continue to use the eSata port.


----------



## hunts

*sigh*

So I was over for dinner at the in-laws this sunday and they reported that their S3 tivo was having problems. Low and behold, I turned on the TV and the tivo was stuck at the "almost there" screen in funky colors. hard reboot it and the tivo took forever to come to the main screen which was stuck on the red background. Cold reboot again with the same result. I head to tivocommunity to see what is up because I recalled seeing a thread about freezing issues. This tivo shows the exact same symptoms as everyone else. 

So a quick call to tivo and the CSR agrees to a swap even though he himeself doesnt think it is a hardware issue, but a software problem.

So now I am worried about my 2nd S3 tivo because I dont watch it often. My main S3 tivo with the USB drive works fine, but check my 2nd S3 tivo *WITHOUT* a usb drive and its sluggish. I do a reboot and it seems fine for about 2 minutes. Then I notice the video freezing.... All in all, i unplugged the coax connection and the tivo comes back to be usuable. I dont want to replace this tivo if it is just a software problem, but how long do I wait for this?

For my in-laws S3, can I just switch the HDD from the replacement box and drop it in their current S3 and hope everything works? All 3 S3 tivos are using cable cards. 2/3 S3 tivos showing problems.... Not a good % tivo.........


----------



## jimbo1mcm

Tivo Stephen said that this issue only involves Tivo HD's. Sounds like he is wrong. It is affecting Tivo Series 3's also. Let's go Tivo!!!


----------



## greg_burns

hunts said:


> *sigh*
> 
> So I was over for dinner at the in-laws this sunday and they reported that their S3 tivo was having problems. Low and behold, I turned on the TV and the tivo was stuck at the "almost there" screen in funky colors. hard reboot it and the tivo took forever to come to the main screen which was stuck on the red background. Cold reboot again with the same result. I head to tivocommunity to see what is up because I recalled seeing a thread about freezing issues. *This tivo shows the exact same symptoms as everyone else. *


Those are not the symptoms of the people with a TivoHD (not S3) that are having *video *freezing.


----------



## pomerlp

Perhaps I posted in the wrong thread, there are so many about problems with either the S3 or TiVo HD. I posted that I had no problems and then yesterday I was watching some shows that were transfered on to my S3 from either my TiVo HD or my computer. All SD, some analog, some digital there was macroblocking, sound drop offs and this wierd kind of fast forward thing going on. I thought it was something wrong with the transfers.

Then I put a live show on pause for about 5 minutes and it did the same thing when I went back to the show. I rebooted and that fixed it but I'm wondering if anyone has seen this?

I don't believe this is 9.3 update related because why would it take so long to show up? And my TiVo HD is fine (knock on wood).


----------



## bananaman

After three days Series 3 is still running fine with the My DVR connected to the motherboard.

I ran Western Digital diagnostics on the original drive and it passed all tests with flying colors! SMART is good too. I used the Western Digital diagnostics to write zeros to the disk, and restored the backup using WinMFS... and it doesn't work. Still a permanent reboot loop.

The symptoms indicate that there is something about the drive which TiVo software finds is a problem, but diagnostics do not.

So its back to the temporary My DVR solution while I buy a new disk.

I can post the diagnostics results if anyone is interested.



bananaman said:


> Add me to the list!
> 
> After various bizarre symptoms including a jammed DL.TV TiVoCast download, recorded shows split in two (probably due to reboots), and random freezes and reboots culminating in a permanent reboot loop, I confirmed that my Series 3 internal disk was going south.
> 
> I was able to get a WinMFS backup of the internal disk, and am temporarily running with the backup restored to the My DVR. I'm shopping for a new internal disk.
> 
> I bought my Series 3 in September 2006 and added a My DVR in December 2007. It has been rock steady until now. It seems to be victim of this outbreak of 9.3-related failures.
> 
> Thanks to all the helpful info and things I've learned in these forums I was able to get back up and running in a couple of hours :up:!


----------



## greg_burns

bananaman said:


> I ran Western Digital diagnostics on the original drive and it passed all tests with flying colors! SMART is good too. I used the Western Digital diagnostics to write zeros to the disk, and restored the backup using WinMFS... and it doesn't work. Still a permanent reboot loop.


Very strange. Have you tried the Hitachi Drive Fitness Test disc just to see if it says anything different?


----------



## bananaman

Ran the Hitachi Drive Fitness Test Advanced Test. Passed.


----------



## greg_burns

Wonder if you were to make a new backup from the image running of your eSATA drive and restore it again to the original what would happen.

Very odd.


----------



## lupes

AbMagFab said:


> It's still most likely a HDD issue. What were the SMART stats? Tests can pass easily, as SMART will mask a problem for quite some time.
> 
> By copying the image back, you effectively did a C&DE, which would likely have had the exact same effect had you done that on the original drive at the beginning. So for a while, you likely will be fine, but when you start to hit the bad areas again, the SMART will eventually exceed what it can do, and you'll fully fail.
> 
> Most likely scenario, IMO.


Well it took a while but I finally got around to pulling some of the SMART stats. It appears there are no significant errors? I am no expert at SMART so someone with the knowledge can evaluate this report. I am trying to execute the "long self test" via SMART and see what results I get.

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: WDC WD2500BS-55RPB1
Serial Number: WD-WCANK7489277
Firmware Version: 10.02E01
User Capacity: 250,059,350,016 bytes
Device is: Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is: 7
ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is: Wed May 28 22:35:42 2008 HST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
See vendor-specific Attribute list for marginal Attributes.

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status: (0x82)	Offline data collection activity
was completed without error.
Auto Offline Data Collection: Enabled.
Self-test execution status: ( 0)	The previous self-test routine completed
without error or no self-test has ever
been run.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection: (7680) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities: (0x7b) SMART execute Offline immediate.
Auto Offline data collection on/off support.
Suspend Offline collection upon new
command.
Offline surface scan supported.
Self-test supported.
Conveyance Self-test supported.
Selective Self-test supported.
SMART capabilities: (0x0003)	Saves SMART data before entering
power-saving mode.
Supports SMART auto save timer.
Error logging capability: (0x01)	Error logging supported.
General Purpose Logging supported.
Short self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 2) minutes.
Extended self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 90) minutes.
Conveyance self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 6) minutes.
SCT capabilities: (0x103f)	SCT Status supported.
SCT Feature Control supported.
SCT Data Table supported.

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f 200 200 051 Pre-fail Always - 0
3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0003 191 187 021 Pre-fail Always - 5416
4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always -  41
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 200 200 140 Pre-fail Always - 0
7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f 200 200 051 Pre-fail Always - 0
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 091 091 000 Old_age Always - 6595
10 Spin_Retry_Count 0x0013 100 253 051 Pre-fail Always - 0
11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0012 100 253 051 Old_age Always - 0
12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 35
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 059 041 045 Old_age Always In_the_past 41
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 110 091 000 Old_age Always - 40
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 0
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0012 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0010 200 200 000 Old_age Offline - 0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x003e 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 8
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate 0x0009 200 200 051 Pre-fail Offline - 0

SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
No self-tests have been logged. [To run self-tests, use: smartctl -t]

SMART Selective self-test log data structure revision number 1
SPAN MIN_LBA MAX_LBA CURRENT_TEST_STATUS
1 0 0 Not_testing
2 0 0 Not_testing
3 0 0 Not_testing
4 0 0 Not_testing
5 0 0 Not_testing
Selective self-test flags (0x0):
After scanning selected spans, do NOT read-scan remainder of disk.
If Selective self-test is pending on power-up, resume after 0 minute delay.


----------



## bananaman

lupes, FWIW my original Series 3 drive behaves just like yours: passes WD diagnostics, Hitachi drive fitness test, and SMART shows everything good with no errors. 

Unlike your case, when I used WD diagnostics to write all zeroes, and restored the original TiVo drive image, it did not start working. Yet when I restored the image to a My DVR drive, it worked. In fact I just moved the My DVR drive into the Series 3 (I figure 2X the original storage is enough TV for me!). It's been running smoothly for over a week now.

Seems that there is something with the original drive which diagnostics do not detect but which TiVo software is sensitive to.


----------



## richsadams

bananaman said:


> Seems that there is something with the original drive which diagnostics do not detect but which TiVo software is sensitive to.


That truly seems to be the case at least for some folks that have cleared things up by replacing their hard drive. But I'll be darned if I can figure out what it is other than possibly I/O error correction issues that the OEM drive just cannot handle.


----------



## Phasers

This happened to me. I didn't want to lose my recordings so after extensive research I downloaded the winmfs live boot cd. And attached the old tivo drive + the new drive [750GB ] to my computer and booted from the CD.

I ran dd_resue and copied the old drive to the new drive. I had 124k (Yes, only 124 friggin k) of bad files on the old drive.

Anyways after I copied the drive over, I put the new drive in the tivo. After I ensured it was working, I put it back in the computer, booted up with the bootcd, then ran mfsadd.

Anyways, long story short, I guess it *was the hard drive* that was causing all the problems, as now I have a new HD, *no freezing or rebooing*, and 98 hours of HD recording capacity.

----------------
edit: for those that are having issues, I only have a single drive in my tivo so here are the commands i used.

I first downloaded the mfslive bootcd. link here

then I burned to a CD and turned off computer.

I attached both the old tivo drive and the new tivo drive (via sata) before restarting the computer booting directly from the CD.

chose option 1 for mfslive with graphics. after a moment it took me to a command prompt.

first thing I typed was *cat /proc/partitions* (this then displayed all the hard drives attached to the computer (sda, sdb, sdc, sdd))

By looking at the sizes I could tell which was my windows drive (not needed I could have unplugged it), which was my old tivo series 3(something like 244xxxxxx) and my new drive (750GB, so like 7xxxxxxxx).

In *my case* my old drive was *sdb* and my new drive was *sdc*.

So after verifying which drive was which (IMPORTANT- you don't want to erase the wrong drive) I ran the following command to copy (*case sensitive)*.

*dd_rescue -B 1b -b 2M -A -v /dev/sdb /dev/sdc* (again- sd*b* was first because that (in my case) was the old tivo drive and sd*c* was next because that was my new tivo drive.)

After it finished (about an hour or so to copy the entire drive byte for byte) put it in into the tivo (important part if you are expanding capacity- you MUST put it into the tivo first). After it successfully booted, I took it back out of the tivo and booted from the CD again.

This time, at the command prompt (I had everything plugged in the same location- i.e. sda, sdb, sdc were all the same) I ran the following command to expand my recoridng capacity:

*mfsadd -r 4 -x /dev/sdc* (remember my new tivo drive was in the 'c' location)

This took a whole 3 seconds and told me I had gained 599 SD hours of recording capacity.

So I plugged the NEW drive back into the tivo unit and voila- all my recordings, season passes, settings, etc. carried over. no need to reconfigure cable cards at all. and of course, triple recording capacity.

that's all you need to do. Pretty easy. Aside from the waiting on processes, took about 15 minutes total of my time.

Note: The 'mfsadd' above only works if you are replacing *One* tivo drive with *one* tivo drive. You can't merge two drives into one using this command.


----------



## ccrider2

I've been itching to try an upgrade on my S3. I only have an internal drive. Not many shows recorded, but wish to keep the intro tours, in case I pass the unit on some day. I've tried moving the tours to the PC, but the transfer fails. ?copy protected maybe? I'm doing this more for safety (backup) than for extra space. From reading on this forum, there appears to be 2 software methods to do this, LIVE boot CD and WINmfs.

If I understand what I've read, can I do this with "LIVE boot CD", but not with "WINmfs"..... Am I thinking right?

Based upon your experience; Can someone recommend one over the other?

Thanks For Your Time,

Chris


----------



## krille

Just to add my voice to the chorus...

Replacing my hard drive seems to have solved this problem for me - at least for now; I did this 9 days ago.

I had an eSATA drive attached, so I couldn't find any way to upgrade the internal drive (from 250 to 750 GB), while keeping the existing eSATA drive and retaining my existing recordings. I used MSFLive to do the upgrade - it was quick and painless.

(If you're in the same situation, note that if you do decide to do the upgrade WITHOUT retaining existing recordings, you need to divorce your eSATA drive first. If you upgrade the internal drive without first divorcing, your TiVo will complain about a missing external device at boot time, and trying to divorce it at that point will not work.)

Haven't run any diagnostics on the drive I took out so I don't have anything to add there.

One last note: a TiVo CSR just informed me that the "very recent" Series 3 RMAs are shipping replacement units that have some piece of hardware inside them that differs from previous S3 units, in an attempt to address this issue. He didn't offer any further info, and wouldn't confirm whether this was a different HDD or some other part.

I do hope there isn't some non-HDD hardware defect that's going to surface again. If so, all of us who are replacing our HDDs rather than getting RMA replacement units may just be implementing a temporary fix.

It'd be nice if TiVo would be more forthcoming about what they know about this problem - but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## kirkfrey

For those that have replaced thier drives, has it kept the unit up since then?

I am on the phone now getting exchange unit #4. this time for a different problem, seems that the drive on this one was really dead - it failed three of the first 4 SMART tests with FAIL 7 within a minute.

NOW they are trying to get me to pay $50 since I am out of the first 90 days! Not going to happen. I will throw the box out before I pay them $50 for shipping me a unti with a problem.


----------



## NSX

Yup. It has almost been 3 months since I replaced the terrible OEM Western Digital HD in my S3. My S3 has been running like a champ ever since.


----------



## richsadams

NSX said:


> Yup. It has almost been 3 months since I replaced the terrible OEM Western Digital HD in my S3. My S3 has been running like a champ ever since.


For anyone that's resolved their problems by replacing their TiVo hard drive (and still have it) can you post the full model number? That may help us find out if there is a particular hard drive that is the root of some of these problems. TIA!

It really makes me continue to wonder if this isn't a software _and _ a hardware problem. If some TiVo's have a different OEM drive than others that might explain why some folks are experiencing problems while others are not and why replacing the hard drive seems to cure the issue(s).

Understood that all TiVo's are shipped w/WD HDD's, but our experience with upgrading the internal hard drive on Series3's using the 1TB WD10EACS-*00ZJB0* (which doesn't work) Vs the WD10EACS-*32ZJB0* (which does) is a good example of what appears to be the exact same drive not being, well, the exact same drive. Still very curious.


----------



## bananaman

My original Series 3 drive which went into and unrecoverable reboot loop but passed all diagnostics known to man except the TiVo software, was a WD2500BS-55RPB1 DOM 25 AUG 2006.


----------



## rcr2

I replaced my drive in April and my S3 is chugging along. I'll report when we hit the magic 6-month mark, which is when my original S3 and the replacement S3 both failed.

So, if my replacement hard drive (done with WINmfs) survives past October, I'll be very happy. I'll try to remember to post the drive info from the failed drive later when I get home.


----------



## Duke

I replaced my WD stock drive with one from DVRUpgrades about three weeks ago, to get rid of the never-ending freeze/reboot cycles. So far so good. My original drive was a WD2500BS-55RPB1 manufactured 21Sept2006.

Oddly my Series3 is still on version 9.2 (which came on the replacement drive from DVRUpgrades). I suspect that's because TiVo engineering was 'watching' my original setup for troubleshooting purposes (turning on the flag for additional diagnostics). However given all the uncertainity regarding whether the 9.3a sofware update is or is not responsible for the Series3 THX issues, I'm reluctant to ask them to upgrade me back to 9.3a.

Duke


----------



## NSX

richsadams said:


> For anyone that's resolved their problems by replacing their TiVo hard drive (and still have it) can you post the full model number? That may help us find out if there is a particular hard drive that is the root of some of these problems. TIA!
> 
> It really makes me continue to wonder if this isn't a software _and _ a hardware problem. If some TiVo's have a different OEM drive than others that might explain why some folks are experiencing problems while others are not and why replacing the hard drive seems to cure the issue(s).
> 
> Understood that all TiVo's are shipped w/WD HDD's, but our experience with upgrading the internal hard drive on Series3's using the 1TB WD10EACS-*00ZJB0* (which doesn't work) Vs the WD10EACS-*32ZJB0* (which does) is a good example of what appears to be the exact same drive not being, well, the exact same drive. Still very curious.


Hi Rich

Just my opinion: I think the only way this is a software issue is the lack of a properly functioning recovery or check system to detect/diagnose the failing OEM Western Digital hard drives. But this is not only a TiVo problem. It's obvious that the WD, Maxtor, Hitachi, etc and other diagnostic tools are not 100%. SMART is not 100%.

I have three Series 3 TiVo's. The first two were purchased new at Costco and the 3rd was received new from TiVo.

01/05/2007 - Untouched and still running great. Records nothing but SD.
02/06/2007 - Untouched and still running great. Mixture of SD & HD.
06/??/2007 - The one that failed and has a new HD. Records nothing but HD.

My newest S3 is the one that failed. My first two are still working fine. Maybe my newest one failed because High Def recording is more "stressful" to the hard drive since it writes and reads much more data than a SD show?

Or maybe it's just a normal HDD failure... lots of them. 

We'll see how this Hitachi 1TB handles things.

My OEM WD HDD Info:
WD2500B8-55RPB1
02 OCT 2006


----------



## krille

I've had my replacement drive in for just over 2 weeks, and everything's running without a hitch.

The drive I replaced was model WD2500BS-55RPB1, DOM 25 Aug 2006 (same DOM bananaman posted above).


----------



## britdiver

Well just got my second GSOD right in front of my eyes and it was at the exact second it started to record something. That recording (and channel) were OK but others went gray. Even the channel I was watching froze.


----------



## hunts

I just got off the phone with tech support and complained about the 9.3a freezing issue. The Tech Rep suggested that I wait 1-2 weeks because Tivo is going to roll out a fix for this *known problem*! I am not holding my breath, but its better than switching tivo boxes with them.


----------



## richsadams

Okay, here's a new WAG/speculation on my part which might explain why HD programming causes the most problems and why replacing a hard drive fixes some/all issues. What if hard drive buffer size is the issue?

This is Western Digital's drive coding (dated March 2008). If I'm reading it correctly I was startled to find that the WD2500B8 is a 250GB SATA drive with a 2MB buffer!

I don't think you can buy an off-the-shelf hard drive with less than an 8MB buffer these days, many coming with 16MB and some 32MB buffer capacities. Obviously TiVo didn't require hard drives with more than 2MB buffering at some point and quite a few forum members have said that TiVo doesn't need and can't use hard drives with 8MB+ buffering over the years. However I'm now wondering if it's possible that the hardware including hard drive, cable card, tuners, etc. (not to mention varying signal strength/quality) and v9.3a software with all of the now extensive broadband applications have hit the 2MB "buffer wall" in some cases. Does it follow that a hard drive with a 4MB, 8MB or greater buffer would better handle "today's" higher I/O data?

That could also explain why the various drive diagnostics are "passing" the hard drives as well. The drives may in reality be perfectly fine, but no longer suited to the demands being placed on them...or they may no longer be suited to how the rest of the system is able to handle their output.

That also may be the reason why replacement drives, both those sold by Weaknees, DVRUpgrade and others as well as DIY jobs that forum members have done remedy the situation.

Then is it possible that instead of having to replace hundreds or thousands of hard drives (a very costly proposition) TiVo is busy seeking to address this issue via a software patch?

I know this would be a very simplistic answer to what is likely a more complicated problem, but I thought I'd throw it out there for some of the more seasoned TiVo experts to chew on. Thoughts?


----------



## richsadams

NSX said:


> Hi Rich
> 
> Just my opinion: I think the only way this is a software issue is the lack of a properly functioning recovery or check system to detect/diagnose the failing OEM Western Digital hard drives. But this is not only a TiVo problem. It's obvious that the WD, Maxtor, Hitachi, etc and other diagnostic tools are not 100%. SMART is not 100%.
> 
> I have three Series 3 TiVo's. The first two were purchased new at Costco and the 3rd was received new from TiVo.
> 
> 01/05/2007 - Untouched and still running great. Records nothing but SD.
> 02/06/2007 - Untouched and still running great. Mixture of SD & HD.
> 06/??/2007 - The one that failed and has a new HD. Records nothing but HD.
> 
> My newest S3 is the one that failed. My first two are still working fine. Maybe my newest one failed because High Def recording is more "stressful" to the hard drive since it writes and reads much more data than a SD show?
> 
> Or maybe it's just a normal HDD failure... lots of them.
> 
> We'll see how this Hitachi 1TB handles things.
> 
> My OEM WD HDD Info:
> WD2500B8-55RPB1
> 02 OCT 2006


Hi Conrad. I think we're more-or-less on the same page. (See my post above). It may well be that with the advent of v9.3x TiVo has finally overreached the box's capacity to do what they'd like it to do based on the original architecture. It seems to me that every "new innovation", bell and whistle adds to the demand on the system even if a particular whistle isn't being blown at the moment.

Your three "test models" are a good example of TiVo hitting the wall when it has to handle all HD. Ours is running perfectly on v9.3a...but I've replaced the hard drive. Others with OEM drives are certainly recording all HD and are running fine as well so it's likely a combination of things that can send it over the edge and why TiVo seems to be having such a difficult time resolving this one.

In any case, I certainly do hope they get it right and soon. No one should have to replace their hard drive just to get things back in working order! (Disclaimer...replacing TiVo's hard drive may or may NOT resolve anyone's particular problem. YMMV.)


----------



## mdobbins

richsadams said:


> For anyone that's resolved their problems by replacing their TiVo hard drive (and still have it) can you post the full model number? That may help us find out if there is a particular hard drive that is the root of some of these problems. TIA!


The drive I replaced several months ago is the WD2500BS-55RPB1 with a DOM of 18 Sep 2006.


----------



## richsadams

I forgot to mention that the drive I pulled from our Series3 was also a WD2500BS-55RPB1, DOM 16 Oct 2006. However it was working fine when I replaced it back in October so it never had the "opportunity" to run v9.3.


----------



## bmgoodman

OK, my Series 3 original drive is WD2500BS-55RPB1, DOM 14 OCT 2006. HTH.


----------



## kirkfrey

Ok, so it seems likely that a drive replacement will bring the my next unit that fails (call me an optimist) when I get it will bring it back to life. It will still be a week before I get the new unit and its taken a week or so for it to fail so I'll give them a week more to get the proported fix out the door and if its still failed I'll try replacing the drive.

What are the most successful 1TB drives that people use?


----------



## hmm52

I've posted on the HD pixelation troubleshooting thread about the repetitive lockup - freeze - reboot cycle my S3 got stuck in several days ago. Something I've seen very little of before but it occurred recently on channels which had no tune or heavy tiling/pixelation before a complicating device was removed from antenna setup. An 8db attenuator on cable feed immediately stopped the reboot cycle. After 3 month stretch of very good FiOS signals, they've been bad on many channels during the last week or so. Previously the worst time for VZ signals and pixelation during S3 ownership was in February. Observed then was variation of signal & tiling day to day and hour to hour.

I wanted to test if the S3 fell into the reboot cycle on the local HDs also as it had instantly on secondary problem channels a few days ago. I thought I had waited too long. With attenuation removed, there was no tiling or other problems on any channel except for the local HDs which tiled moderately every 10 seconds or so. Last night I put the tuners on different combinations of locals for a minute or so, more than enough time for freeze/lockups as happened earlier in the week with some non locals. No results.

Today I left the S3 on 2 locals for longer. No RS Uncorrected or tiling observed this morning on any locals [VZ does maintenance after midnight]. After 25 minutes I noticed that one local had suddenly accumulated over 45k RS Uncorrected in a burst, while I was out of the room. Soon after the S3 went into the lockup freeze/reboot/mode, but in slow motion. The video froze first but nothing else. Switching tuners to OK channel, setting recording of bad one, and checking buffer on same were possible before it rebooted, though it didn't allow going backwards into buffer.

It is apparent to me that my S3's recent lockup/reboots are in response to signal errors. Also observed is that signal attenuation prevents this. I will continue to monitor and experiment though I have no control over VZ's signals of course. The interest is in what is immediately observed and repeatable. So far the effect of off signals and remedy by attenuation have been just that. I'd be more confidant with more tests/observations. As my VHO and/or CO clean up the signals, opportunities for testing diminish. Perhaps they can put that off for a few days more.


----------



## hutchinj

Given my S3 is long out of warranty (I bought it at full retail when they first came out) and that I'd like to have more storage capacity anyway, I went ahead and ordered a larger replacement hard drive today. It's coming preconfigured as I just don't have the time, inclination, or know-how to do that myself. I can live with re-entering my settings and the loss of the current recordings. Fortunately we moved most of that off to DVD already. 

My S3's symptoms are the same or similar to what many have stated here... problems first appeared as extremely slow menu response (likely in conjuction with the 9.3a s/w upgrade although I cannot confirm that) which grew steadily worse up to the locked up, perpetual reboot cycle, with neither remote or front panel buttons responding.

This whole experience has been soooo frustrating (not news to others here, I know) as the system used to work just perfectly and life was good in TiVo-land. In fact, my S3 TiVo is the only thing that has kept me from jumping to satellite which has much better HD offerings in my area than ComCast (uggh).

I'm hopeful the new drive will at least buy me some time. Maybe that, in conjunction with an eventual TiVo s/w update, will make things right once again. Hey, I can hope!


----------



## richsadams

kirkfrey said:


> What are the most successful 1TB drives that people use?


Thanks for keeping us updated. :up:

All the info you need on replacing your hard drive can be found on the first post of the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky. Drive recommendations are there (Section III, #27) as well as how to upgrade your internal hard drive (Section III, #30).


----------



## richsadams

hutchinj said:


> Given my S3 is long out of warranty (I bought it at full retail when they first came out) and that I'd like to have more storage capacity anyway, I went ahead and ordered a larger replacement hard drive today.<snip>


Welcome to the forum (although it looks like you've been lurking for a while ).

Best of luck, enjoy the new real estate and let us know how your replacement drive/TiVo performs. :up:


----------



## Duke

hutchinj said:


> ....My S3's symptoms are the same or similar to what many have stated here... problems first appeared as extremely slow menu response (likely in conjuction with the 9.3a s/w upgrade although I cannot confirm that) which grew steadily worse up to the locked up, perpetual reboot cycle, with neither remote or front panel buttons responding.


I'd be interested to know if your preconfigured drive comes with the 9.2 or 9.3 software version; and if it's 9.2, if you run into any trouble once it upgrades itself to 9.3


----------



## richsadams

Duke said:


> I'd be interested to know if your preconfigured drive comes with the 9.2 or 9.3 software version; and if it's 9.2, if you run into any trouble once it upgrades itself to 9.3


That would be good to know as well. FWIW I'll wager it comes with v8.x based on other posts. Others have also recently posted that their pre-configured drives received all of the updates, including v9.3, and that they're working fine. It would be good info though. :up:


----------



## Duke

A few weeks ago I purchased a replacement drive from DVRUpgrades, and it came with 9.2. My software updates are 'frozen' at the moment (for diagnostic purposes), and I prefer to stay at 9.2 until I get a more definitive answer as to the true cause of this problem.

Duke


----------



## greg_burns

DVRUpgrade's InstantCake has been upgraded to 9.2a. That is probably what they are using as their image now.

http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/store...ategory_ID=5&page=prod&type=Model&ModelID=115


> InstantCake for these units is currently shipping with 9.2a of the system software. Once your new drive is installed into your TiVo unit and connected your network (or phone line), it will update to the latest version available from TiVo automatically


----------



## richsadams

Duke said:


> A few weeks ago I purchased a replacement drive from DVRUpgrades, and it came with 9.2. My software updates are 'frozen' at the moment (for diagnostic purposes), and I prefer to stay at 9.2 until I get a more definitive answer as to the true cause of this problem.
> 
> Duke


How did you go about "freezing" your software updates? Are you working w/TiVo? 



greg_burns said:


> DVRUpgrade's InstantCake has been upgraded to 9.2a. That is probably what they are using as their image now.
> 
> http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/store...ategory_ID=5&page=prod&type=Model&ModelID=115


Ah, good to know...and it would be valuable to know if anyone that's installed one of the pre-configured drives sees any issues when upgraded to 9.3x.


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> How did you go about "freezing" your software updates? Are you working w/TiVo?


see this post


----------



## Ilene

I finally gave up and ordered a new hard drive from Weaknees which came today. I really did not want to do this as I am now no longer able to use the external eSata drive I purchased. (I know I can jump through all the hoops listed in the FAQ, but I don't want to). 

I replaced WD2500BS-55RPB1, DOM 26 Aug 2006 with a Seagate 750gb drive. I was worried that I would have to go through the dreaded cableCard reinstall, but I just simply rehooked up the S3, ran the guided set up and so far so good. I am currently on 9.2a-01-2-648 and have 107 HD hours which is 10 more than what I had with the external drive set up. 

So far a quick scan of the channels does not show any pixelation, so right now I am crossing my fingers that it will not return. 
Since everything appears to be working fine, I am praying that if and when I get 9.3 that I won't go into the continuous reboot mode.


----------



## richsadams

Ilene said:


> I replaced WD2500BS-55RPB1, DOM 26 Aug 2006 with a Seagate 750gb drive. <snip> Since everything appears to be working fine, I am praying that if and when I get 9.3 that I won't go into the continuous reboot mode.


Glad to hear the replacement went well. :up: My money says it will still work fine when you receive v9.3x. But then it's all play money here isn't it? Still...if I could I'd bet it will be fine. Please report back either way and TIA.


----------



## ccrider2

richsadams said:


> Thanks for keeping us updated. :up:
> 
> All the info you need on replacing your hard drive can be found on the first post of the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky. Drive recommendations are there (Section III, #27) as well as how to upgrade your internal hard drive (Section III, #30).


Thanks for the heads-up on the drive replacement info. I've been wanting to try this while I have a perfectly good working TiVo S3.

Chris


----------



## Generic

Ilene said:


> I finally gave up and ordered a new hard drive from Weaknees which came today. I really did not want to do this as I am now no longer able to use the external eSata drive I purchased. (I know I can jump through all the hoops listed in the FAQ, but I don't want to).
> 
> So far a quick scan of the channels does not show any pixelation, so right now I am crossing my fingers that it will not return. Since everything appears to be working fine, I am praying that if and when I get 9.3 that I won't go into the continuous reboot mode.


I am very close to getting a new HD for my S3 because I am getting frustrated with the lockups/reboots. I am normally a very easy going guy and don't complain about things like this but it has become really bad. Also, does the HD contribute to the pixelation that I am seeing? I noticed with my Fios STB and I notice it my S3. I can't say there is any difference in the pixation but if a new HD reduces it, then I am all for it. I also want a new HD for the increased storage capacity.


----------



## richsadams

Generic said:


> I am very close to getting a new HD for my S3 because I am getting frustrated with the lockups/reboots. I am normally a very easy going guy and don't complain about things like this but it has become really bad. Also, does the HD contribute to the pixelation that I am seeing? I noticed with my Fios STB and I notice it my S3. I can't say there is any difference in the pixation but if a new HD reduces it, then I am all for it. I also want a new HD for the increased storage capacity.


If you're seeing macroblocking/pixelization with both your Verizon DVR as well as your TiVo it is more likely a signal issue, not your TiVo's hard drive.

This thread is specifically discussing the same issue. Many/most of the people that have posted there have resolved the issue using inline attenuators to address a "hot" (strong) FIOS signal. Have a read and see what you think.

If you're interested in upgrading your Series3's hard drive you can purchase a pre-imaged drive from DVRUpgrade.com or weaknees.com or you can do it yourself. Everything you need to know for a DIY install can be found on the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky, Recommended drives are in Section III, #27 and instructions are in Section III, #30. The same instructions can be found at MFSLive.com.

Best of luck!


----------



## Generic

richsadams said:


> If you're seeing macroblocking/pixelization with both your Verizon DVR as well as your TiVo it is more likely a signal issue, not your TiVo's hard drive.
> 
> This thread is specifically discussing the same issue. Many/most of the people that have posted there have resolved the issue using inline attenuators to address a "hot" (strong) FIOS signal. Have a read and see what you think.
> 
> If you're interested in upgrading your Series3's hard drive you can purchase a pre-imaged drive from DVRUpgrade.com or weaknees.com or you can do it yourself. Everything you need to know for a DIY install can be found on the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky, Recommended drives are in Section III, #27 and instructions are in Section III, #30. The same instructions can be found at MFSLive.com.
> 
> Best of luck!


I decided to order from Weaknees a couple of hours after my last post. I am glad I did since I have had more lockups/reboots. Thanks for the info.


----------



## wvalencia

My HD Tivo is another one that has had a hard drive issue. I too am VERY unhappy with the length of time it is taking to get my replacement. The unit is only 6 months old and now it has to go back. If Tivo has a known problem with a batch of drives, then I would expect them to contact those with the bad units so they could take care of us.

My $.05

Bill


----------



## KLR650Rider

Let me add my problems to the thread.

I called Tivo support telling them about my Series 3 hangs and reboots. It displays the problem in Live TV, recorded shows and any of the Tivo menus. I inform them that when I remove the cable everything works except obviously I don't get any new shows. They have me do the hard drive diags and them determine it must be a cable card issue. 

I contact the cable company and they replace both cable cards and I'm still having the problem.

I call Tivo back and them have me go over the same routine again. unplug the cable, run hard drive diags. This time the guy offers to replace my box for $149. Both times I called Tivo, I ask them if their having any issues with 9.3x software and Series 3 computers. They claim there are no problems.

I get the new box and it runs fine for a couple of days. I notice its still on version 8.x. I then get upgraded to 9.3a and right away it starts hanging and rebooting again.

I call Tivo and this time the guy tells me there is a problem with a small amount of computers but my issue is different. With the cable plugged in, the Tivo menu's should be fine. In my case, the Tivo menus hang. So he thinks its a defective replacement. yup, the day it gets upgraded to 9.3a it got defective.

I waited a couple of weeks to see if I get any new software updates but nothing yet. So, now I'm writing this while I'm on hold with Tivo support.


----------



## Generic

I was hoping installing the new hard drive yesterday from Weaknees would have stopped the lockups/reboots but it seems that is not the case. I sit here with a locked up S3. I am waiting to see if it will reboot on it's own or if I have to plug the power cord. I was recording the news and watching at the same time. The other tuner was recording a SD Tivo suggestion. I missed a story on the news and went to rewind when it locked up on me. It doesn't appear to be rebooting on it's own so it looks like I will have to pull the power cord.

I was really hoping the new HD would have fixed the lockup/reboot problem. Because I am an optimistic person, I am still hoping for that but it doesn't look good at this point.

ETA: I don't know if it makes a difference but after rebooting, I noticed that the recorded part of the news stopped about 2 minutes prior to the actual lock up. I was hoping to see the story on the recorded playback but it only recorded 3 minutes of the news and the S3 had locked up 5 minutes into the program.


----------



## bmgoodman

Generic said:


> I was hoping installing the new hard drive yesterday from Weaknees would have stopped the lockups/reboots but it seems that is not the case. I sit here with a locked up S3.


I replaced my drive a week ago. Last night, I saw the same lockup behavior as I've seen a number of times before. I turned on the TV and Tivo S3. The clock came on, but there was no audio or video. I switched to my S2 and saw that I could navigate into the S3's "Now Playing" list. (This is the frequently the case for me with the lockup/reboot issue, but not always.) I decided that since the S3 was recording something, I would just watch the S2 for a while. Several minutes later, I noticed all the S3's front lights came on; it was rebooting.

I do not see how this is a hard drive issue. (FWIW, I ran WD's Extended Diagnostics on the new drive before I installed it. WD10EVCS.)


----------



## MikeAndrews

I just added 2 M CableCARDs on Comcast to my Series 3 with 9.3a on Monday. Up til now I've used it OTA, and when I moved out of antenna range I set it up for net transfer only. Never had a problem.

It has locked up 3 times where turning on the TV I see a black screen no sound. Only the "command seen" LED on the front panel responds from remote or front panel buttons.

The first two incidents were overnight, like 1AM and 11PM by the To Do list. The last was at 4PM. I've never had a lock-up happen while I was watching.

I did a longer power cycle yesterday as I reported the problem to TiVo support. The tech said there is a new software update due in 1,2, or 3 soon weeks. I guess I need to do the routine power cycle thing in the meantime.  

I also hard deleted to make some space.

The good news was the S3 was working this morning.

I think I'm going to proceed with my plan to add a 1TB external drive. Since mine is stock I know the problem is not due to any mod, and the extra space should only help. What it'll really help is mine telling me it won't have space to make recordings.


----------



## gascantx

My S3 started the freeze / lock-up problem about 4 days ago. It has continually gotten worse. Now it reboots about once an hour and the guide/menu almost never come up when when requested.

I spoke with Tivo Tech Support today for an hour and got the following:
1. Tivo knows about the problem and is working on a software fix
2. Tivo does not know when the fix will be available (the tech indicated weeks not days)

I really complained about having to continue to pay for my monthly service fee since I can't use my Tivo and she credited me one month's service charge.

Being a software engineering, I am amazed at the lack of quality control on a product that is supposed to be a "plug and play" appliance. I seriously doubt I ever buy another Tivo. I am going to investigate building a system using MythTV.

Tivo should really get its act together, fix this ASAP and fire the management team in charge of quality assurance.


----------



## stretch35

I thought this lock up problem was with the TIVOHD ($299 one) not series 3 (THX big bucks one) my TIVO HD has been locking up once a week (just video playback menus fine) with tivo's official esata expansion drive, no cable cards, analog cable and ota hd sources and of course 9.3 My series 3 has audio out on about 1/3rd channels, static on other 3rd of channels, normal audio on last 3rd all mixed around (good audio on channels I never watch)


----------



## stretch35

gascantx said:


> My S3 started the freeze / lock-up problem about
> I really complained about having to continue to pay for my monthly service fee since I can't use my Tivo and she credited me one month's service charge.
> 
> Life time users get zippo for our troubles, I just hope that when tivo gets bought out or dies they send a firmware that allows us to get up manual recordings just like the series one with initial software..remember that you could buy it ,never plug into tivo service to avoid software updates, and you would have been good to go


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## Tom White

Doesn't it seem like this thread, and the one for the TivoHD freezing problems, should be made into a "sticky" thread until it is resolved?


----------



## mrdazzo7

Tom White said:


> Doesn't it seem like this thread, and the one for the TivoHD freezing problems, should be made into a "sticky" thread until it is resolved?


Yes it should be.

I have to say, as solid as Tivo's been in the past, the problems with the S3 are so damn frustrating. First I had the problem with the NDS cablecards (dropped channels practically everyday). I finally got new updated cards from Cablevision about six weeks ago, and since then have not had a single dropped channel or missed recording. So this weekend I'm watching TV when all of a sudden, I get what i see now is this very common freeze/lock-up problem. Everyone else is familiar with it so I won't get into the specifics. What I want to know is, how does something like that happen after 9 months of operation... I don't think I got 9.3 over the weekend, I think I've had it for a while, so what's the problem?

My friends cant understand why on earth I would spend almost $600 on a DVR when they get theirs for free, but I was OK with it because *obviously* Tivo rules compared to cable DVR. But at this point--while my friends are all watching their shows problem free--I'm really starting to wonder what justifies the price tag. I'm already expecting problems when I call Support, seeing as what some others here have reported back. If you're gonna charge so much money for something, build a damn product that works. It's not that crazy of a concept.


----------



## MikeAndrews

My S3 has continued to lock up at least once in a 12 hour period. Only once did it freeze with a frame of video showing.

I'm wondering what we know about the lockups. I've been forcing restarts, thinking it's a memory leak that is more likely with more uptime. I wonder if the lock ups are more likely during scheduled recordings.

I think I'll do the D* DVR SOP and put an X10 module on the power and just cycle it on demand and/or on a timer.

It has consistently missed recordings, of course. I was beginning to think that some shows were cursed and I'd never get them. What am I supposed to do? Watch them in real time? 

It got to the point I was going to the upcoming shows list and manually selecting the same episode 2 or 3 times in hopes that the TiVo will be actually be alive though one of those. 

I'm loving the functionality with TiVo2Go and such while it's working, but it's most important that it actually work for a day. It's a really, really, sad situation.. 

Oh. My 1TB Hitachi Deskstar drive was DOA. Wasted a few hours with that. Nuttin works in dis world.


----------



## SeanTivo

gascantx said:


> My S3 started the freeze / lock-up problem about 4 days ago.


About 6 months ago I was having serious reboot problems. I was starting to keep a log of how often it was happening. About every 2 days the machine would reboot and half of the reboots would generate the Green Screen of Death. Luckily, it always recovered. Then it just stopped happening.

I hadn't had a reboot for 6 months until 3 days ago. Now it's happened 3 times in the last 3 days with 2 GSOD's.

This really is maddening.


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## gascantx

any updates from Tivo on a fix for this problem?

It is driving me nuts!!!


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## kirkfrey

replacement unit #4 just died....

TiVo support:
"I know they are testing a fix now" She was VERY nice, offered to "downgrade" me to an HD unit. I mentioned that I had seen those were having issues as well and I wasnt too interested in swapping one problem for another. She admitted to that and said she had an HD unit that was ok.

She is supposedly getting me into a beta program to test a fix.

I have NO faith that this will be fixed any time soon.


----------



## hiddentrout

gascantx said:


> any updates from Tivo on a fix for this problem?
> 
> It is driving me nuts!!!


There's some power in post count, so I'd encourage (other frustrated S3) owners to continue to sound off on the lack of (reasonable) support on this issue.

<----- proxy for another longtime Tivo owner who plunked down for TWO S3's (at full retail) and has been unable to watch TV until Comcast came out and dropped off one of their DVRs (for free).


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## richsadams

kirkfrey said:


> TiVo support:
> "I know they are testing a fix now" She was VERY nice, offered to "downgrade" me to an HD unit.


Admitting that you have a problem is the first step to recovery. Sigh. At least they're finally owning the issue. Testing is a good sign. Ours are fine, but I certainly can't recommend a product with a potential problem. Let's hope they get 'er done sooner than later.


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## hizhonor

kirkfrey said:


> replacement unit #4 just died....
> 
> TiVo support:
> "I know they are testing a fix now" She was VERY nice, offered to "downgrade" me to an HD unit. I mentioned that I had seen those were having issues as well and I wasnt too interested in swapping one problem for another. She admitted to that and said she had an HD unit that was ok.
> 
> She is supposedly getting me into a beta program to test a fix.
> 
> I have NO faith that this will be fixed any time soon.


If there is indeed a beta fix, I'd be happy to partake. Can't be any worse than what's happening now.


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## jimbo1mcm

Replaced my OEM 250gb WD with a Seagate DB35, 750GB, using MFS tools. I have a Tivo Series 3 with 2 Motorola Cable Cards. I usually keep the playing list clean. I delete when finished, and then permanently delete out of the Deleted folder. I usually just stay on the one cable card. I know I am not using the full capabilites of the unit, ie deleting and not storing movies, but until they get this problem fixed, this seems to be working for me.


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## britdiver

Well it started the restart looping again. Sometimes not even the green power light stayed on. Anyway I have just called Tivo and did an exchange. They agreed that restarts like that sound like more than a software issue. I did the "hold on credit card" to get the new unit shipped asap and they credit me back when they get the old machine back. Net result is $49 + tax.

Interestingly she mentioned the lockup software fix they are working on. Although I mentioned the older lockup problem, she mentioned the new fix that is being worked on. She said it is going out to selected Beta testers right now and hopefully will be released in a few weeks. She even admitted that it was a problem caused by the signal/cablecard and in fact her own personal machine locked up all the time and so she was waiting for this fix too. Very informative customer service.

P.S. Connected my tv via coax and put my cable card in the tv. See if the tv "crashes"!


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## garyriet

I experienced lockups, slow response and reboots for the since June 13th. After reading the forums and basically losing my mind "Oh my GOD what are we going to do the Tivo is broke" we pickup up a Seagate 1TB drive from Best Buy for $180. Tried running WinMFS and it would just stop responding. SO I downloaded MFSLive and tried a backup that way, it failed with a bunch of errors. I then ran dd_rescue it found 8 errors completed and then went to expand it. mfsadd failed with a no header error or something , long night can not remember the exact error message. Booted back into windows and was able to do a truncated backup. Lost all my recordings but saved the wishlists and season passes. Have not had any problems the last 12 hours. SO I would say it is definetly releated to hard drive issues. Is there a way to telnet or ssh into the Series 3? I it be cool to run iostat and sar to get some performance data from the unit. 
Gary


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## Duke

garyriet said:


> .... Is there a way to telnet or ssh into the Series 3? I it be cool to run iostat and sar to get some performance data from the unit. Gary


Try posting this question in the TiVo Upgrade (or Underground) forum:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=8


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## kirkfrey

kirkfrey said:


> replacement unit #4 just died....
> 
> TiVo support:
> "I know they are testing a fix now" She was VERY nice, offered to "downgrade" me to an HD unit. I mentioned that I had seen those were having issues as well and I wasnt too interested in swapping one problem for another. She admitted to that and said she had an HD unit that was ok.
> 
> She is supposedly getting me into a beta program to test a fix.
> 
> I have NO faith that this will be fixed any time soon.


So still no call/email regarding getting me into the beta program. at this point, I NOT surprised in the least...


----------



## hiddentrout

garyriet said:


> I experienced lockups, slow response and reboots for the since June 13th. After reading the forums and basically losing my mind "Oh my GOD what are we going to do the Tivo is broke" we pickup up a Seagate 1TB drive from Best Buy for $180. Tried running WinMFS and it would just stop responding. SO I downloaded MFSLive and tried a backup that way, it failed with a bunch of errors. I then ran dd_rescue it found 8 errors completed and then went to expand it. mfsadd failed with a no header error or something , long night can not remember the exact error message. Booted back into windows and was able to do a truncated backup. Lost all my recordings but saved the wishlists and season passes. Have not had any problems the last 12 hours. SO I would say it is definetly releated to hard drive issues. Is there a way to telnet or ssh into the Series 3? I it be cool to run iostat and sar to get some performance data from the unit.
> Gary


...just to add another data point, I replaced the drive in my S3 this weekend (w/a Seagate 1tb drive) and all the S3 errors (reboots, freeze, lockups, slow menus) have not yet re-emerged.

I guess it still seems odd as heck to have so many folks have S3 HD issues at the same time (particularly given that I've _never_ had a HD problem in any other Tivo unit - ever) but it sure does _look_ like a HD issue.


----------



## gascantx

mrdazzo7 said:


> My friends cant understand why on earth I would spend almost $600 on a DVR when they get theirs for free, but I was OK with it because *obviously* Tivo rules compared to cable DVR. But at this point--while my friends are all watching their shows problem free--I'm really starting to wonder what justifies the price tag. I'm already expecting problems when I call Support, seeing as what some others here have reported back. If you're gonna charge so much money for something, build a damn product that works. It's not that crazy of a concept.


I agree with you 100%!!!


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## Tom White

This had slipped to the third page back. I think it is important to keep it in front of everyone, at least so that new members can easily find they are not alone if they are having this problem.


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## Tazznum1

Add me to the pile. Immediately after Tivo upgraded to the Summer 2008 service pack and finished rebooting at 5:55 am, my tivo is set to record one hd news program and another program on reg. tv channel. Sputter sputter freeze freeze reboot. Reboot. Reboot. 

I have adored Tivo since 2000 and this is my third unit after series 1 and then 2 and now S3 and I feel like the biggest dope spending $700 for the machine in Jan 2007 and then another $200 to transfer my lifetime sub from my series 1 to this. I didn't start using it until July last year but had to buy it to make sure I would have my lifetime on it.

Now I'm on the GSOD ks57. Now it's past a year service and for $900+tax I have a nice doorstop. Maybe $10 a month to go with the cable companys DVR doesn't look so bad.


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## greg_burns

Tazznum1 said:


> Now it's past a year service and for $900+tax I have a nice doorstop.


It's not the end of the world! *All hard drives fail eventually.* There are lots of theories why they seem to go after updates, but it doesn't really matter. Couple things you can try...

#1 Buy a new preimaged drive
#2 Try using WinMFS to copy your settings to a new blank drive
#3 Use InstantCake and reimage your current drive, or a new blank one. 
#4 Send it back to Tivo (or Weaknees, DVRUpgrade, etc) for repair

You make it sounds like you are going to put it out on the curb.


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## Tom White

greg_burns said:


> It's not the end of the world! *All hard drives fail eventually.* There are lots of theories why they seem to go after updates, but it doesn't really matter. Couple things you can try...
> 
> #1 Buy a new preimaged drive
> #2 Try using WinMFS to copy your settings to a new blank drive
> #3 Use InstantCake and reimage your current drive, or a new blank one.
> #4 Send it back to Tivo (or Weaknees, DVRUpgrade, etc) for repair
> 
> You make it sounds like you are going to put it out on the curb.


Ok rolleyes, how do you know it is the hard drive? Are you saying everyone in this thread should suspect their drive?


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## greg_burns

Tom White said:


> Ok rolleyes, how do you know it is the hard drive? Are you saying everyone in this thread should suspect their drive?


Last time I looked this wasn't the known TivoHD freeze thread. In which case, yeah, I would suspect the hard drive first. *Especially if your freezing/reboots starts immediately after an update.*

It is quite possible either the drive is bad (updates install to the alternate previously unused partition) or the update didn't install correctly. Reimaging his current drive with IC will fix the later.

I am not saying it is the drive for sure, just that there are countless reports of replacing/reimaging fixing problems.

The alternative of sending the damn thing back to Tivo is expensive, will loose all settings for sure, and inconvenient.

YMMV


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## Tazznum1

If I wasn't a loyal Tivo lover, I would have done more than put it on the curb. I just ordered a 750gig that was preloaded and is plug and play for it. If I have another issue with it I will never buy another Tivo again and I'll go back to my series 2 until that dies and be fully done with Tivo. 

I adore Tivo, but after seeing this thread, it only makes me more angry that they haven't sent a fix out or understood that 2mb on the disc is way to minimal. Having to deal with the cable company will only exacerbate my issue with the problem.


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## greg_burns

Tazznum1 said:


> If I have another issue with it I will never buy another Tivo again and I'll go back to my series 2 until that dies and be fully done with Tivo.


I wish you luck, but you have to be realistic. Some drives last for years, others... not so much.


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## Ellis Guy

We purchased our Tivo Series 3 in November 2007, and in May 2008, we started having it breaking up, freexing, and in the end rebooting repeatedly. After several hours on the telephone with Tivo, visits from the RCN to test the cable strength, replacing the cablecards and enormous frustration at our inability to watch live TV or record without problems, we asked for a replacement and shipped back our original. Witin ten days the exact same problem started to emerge on the replacement that they sent us. So asking for a replacement, did not fix the problem for us. We have twice called TIVO back to ask for help or information about when they are going to fix the problem, and they have not been able to respond. They even took our phone number and gave us a TIVO case number, and promised to call back the next day, but then did nothing and did not leave a message on our machine. Although we love our TIVO when it works, TIVO has really let us down. 

I am waiting to see someone post any information that the new release 9.4 has improved this terrible locking problem that many many owners are experiencing.


----------



## Tazznum1

greg_burns said:


> I wish you luck, but you have to be realistic. Some drives last for years, others... not so much.


I understand. That's why I just shelled out another $200. I'm giving it the old college try before I it goes to someone that has 10-15 hard drives laying around.


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## Tazznum1

Ellis Guy said:


> We purchased our Tivo Series 3 in November 2007, and in May 2008, we started having it breaking up, freexing, and in the end rebooting repeatedly. After several hours on the telephone with Tivo, visits from the RCN to test the cable strength, replacing the cablecards and enormous frustration at our inability to watch live TV or record without problems, we asked for a replacement and shipped back our original. Witin ten days the exact same problem started to emerge on the replacement that they sent us. So asking for a replacement, did not fix the problem for us. We have twice called TIVO back to ask for help or information about when they are going to fix the problem, and they have not been able to respond. They even took our phone number and gave us a TIVO case number, and promised to call back the next day, but then did nothing and did not leave a message on our machine. Although we love our TIVO when it works, TIVO has really let us down.
> 
> I am waiting to see someone post any information that the new release 9.4 has improved this terrible locking problem that many many owners are experiencing.


Well mine started with those problems immediately after the newest release.


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## Spiff

Crap. My Series3 started this behavior about a week ago. It's gotten worse since the Update I just got today.  This is my only TiVo with CableCards, my 2 TiVo HDs are fine.


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## e30cabrio

My S3 has been locking up for six months, my HD has not. I had enough yesterday and called executive customer service. Their solution was a 40.00 refund towards my monthly service and a promise for a fix "soon"

Nice


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## Duke

Problems such as these, which cause customers to contact their cable providers searching for answers/relief; only to discover that it's some type of hardware/software issue created by TiVo, cannot engender good will with the cable companies.


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## Tazznum1

Or their customers.


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## mrdazzo7

been out of the loop for the last week and was hoping for some movement on this, but it looks like there hasn't been any yet. Gotta say, as time ticks closer to the beginning of the season, I will start getting more and more impatient. It's bad enough my TV is essentially useless now, but i can survive for a bit since I don't watch too much in the summer (although my documentary fix isn't being met right now). But I won't be able to deal with this once the new season starts, way too many things on the schedule. Tivo seriously needs to get their act together. I'm calling today for a service credit since it's now been a full month where it hasn't worked right.


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## Tazznum1

So I guess lifetimer's are just screwed then?


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## richsadams

Now that TiVo has started distribution of the summer upgrade (v9.4x) it will be interesting to see if it resolves some/all of the problems folks here are experiencing.


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## Tazznum1

Or cause others to die, like mine did after the "update."


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## richsadams

As mentioned previously (over many years) there are always some boxes that fail after an upgrade. There's plenty of speculation about the cause but whatever it is most folks have found one of these remedies to work:

TiVo's built-in diagnostic/repair programs called Kickstarts.

Re-imaging the existing hard drive with Instant Cake.

Replacing their hard drive (re-imaging it with WinMFS or Instant Cake) or buying a pre-configured hard drive from Weaknees or DVRUpgrade.

Exchanging the unit through TiVo. Some have had success with a $49 exchange even after the one-year warranty has passed, others haven't. (A lot depends on the attitude of the caller and the CSR I think, YMMV of course.)

Wait for an upgrade to the upgrade that may or may not fix what ails it.

Fair? Reasonable? Not IMHO. But those are the choices. Or one can throw up their hands, give up and kick it to the curb. If you have a lifetime sub, that doesn't seem to be a good idea, but each to their own.


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## loubob57

Don't know if this is the same thing ...

Twice in the last few days my S3 has been in a state where it is outputting no video or audio. The remote makes the LED on the front panel blink but I get no other response to remote clicks (no menus screens). I am able to see the list of recordings in TiVo desktop so the network is working. I power cycle and it works properly again.


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## cliffdunaway

cliffdunaway said:


> I have the same problem, except mine is worse. If I tune to 2 digital channels, my TivoHD usually reboots within 5 - 15 minutes. Especially the major network HD channels, they are the worst
> 
> My workaround is this:
> Most of the programs I record are from the major networks, all of which broadcast over the air in HD here in Richmond. So I hooked up a pair of rabbit ears, re-ran setup to find both antenna and cable channels, and changed my network recordings to OTA HD channels (6-1, 12-1, 35-1, etc.). Works like a charm, absolutely no slowdown, freezing, or rebooting for the last week.


I am happy to report that I received the 9.4 upgrade yesterday, and it appears to have solved my reboot problem! I have tried to "break" it, but my TivoHD has been steady as a rock. :up:

There was a slight problem during the install, as others have reported. The "Powering Up" screen stayed for about 30 minutes, so I unplugged the power cord, reconnected, and then everything was fine.

I think I can retire my rabbit ears now!!!


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## lancepa92

Want to add my voice on this one, so TiVo can continue to see the volume of irritated owners.

I have an S3 unit that just began the freeze and re-boot cycle two days ago (after about a week of slow menu response). I made the mistake of calling TiVo tech support before checking the forum, so I was not aware of this being a persistent issue when I talked to the tech.

Although he was very nice, he gave me no indication that this was a known problem, and ultimately blamed it on the cable cards and said I needed new ones. So, after hassling Time Warner cable to get out here ASAP (which they actually did), I had both cable cards replaced today. And nothing changed. After a few minutes of good behavior, it went right back into the freeze and re-boot cycle.

So, now, not only am I irritated at the fact that my TiVo isn't working, I'm also irritated that TiVo just can't come clean with us all on this one. They are using up all their goodwill with us lifetimers.

I'm on 9.3a and hoping that 9.4 will solve this.... either that, or I'll continue to wish to Steve Jobs that Apple turns Apple TV into a DVR.


----------



## mrdazzo7

cliffdunaway said:


> There was a slight problem during the install, as others have reported. The "Powering Up" screen stayed for about 30 minutes, so I unplugged the power cord, reconnected, and then everything was fine.


Nice... I'm not as lucky. I thought it worked for my S3 as I was navigating the menus with no trouble. The second I tuned to a digital channel, it went crazy, then froze, and eventually rebooted. At least five times. On it's own. I eventually disconnected the coax cable so I could at least watch a recording and it seemed to be OK then (wtf?). Anyway, I'm gonna try some of Rich's methods, maybe the Kickstart will work for me...


----------



## MikeAndrews

loubob57 said:


> Don't know if this is the same thing ...
> 
> Twice in the last few days my S3 has been in a state where it is outputting no video or audio. The remote makes the LED on the front panel blink but I get no other response to remote clicks (no menus screens). I am able to see the list of recordings in TiVo desktop so the network is working. I power cycle and it works properly again.


We have a match! I had that problem, too!  It locked up while the receiver was powered off.

THAT issue is with the HDMI connect. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6460095#post6460095

It's been rock solid since I rerouted the HDMI cable.

So there as at least two of us who have the problem that nobody else has ever had.


----------



## Tazznum1

Anybody besides me have an S3 freeze/reboot that was fine before the 9.4 update?


----------



## bmgoodman

netringer said:


> We have a match! I had that problem, too!  It locked up while the receiver was powered off.
> 
> THAT issue is with the HDMI connect. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6460095#post6460095
> 
> It's been rock solid since I rerouted the HDMI cable.
> 
> So there as at least two of us who have the problem that nobody else has ever had.


I have that problem, too, but my HDMI goes direct to my HDTV. I can still access Now Playing from my computer or remotely from my S2 until several minutes later when the S3 reboots. Note that the S3 comes out of Standby (based on OLED clock turning on), but never displays to the screen. Nor will the S3 go back to standby once this occurs.

I did replace the HD with a new 1 TB WD green drive. The problem has not gone away.


----------



## mrdazzo7

I just gave up. I hooked up my S2 and am putting the S3 to the side before I have a nervous breakdown. I have never spent over $500 on a product only to have it be rendered useless after just NINE months (keep in mind, 3/4 of those nine months were already spent dealing with card issues, but that was my cableco's fault). I Absolutely LOVE the S3, and I don't have a cable box so I'm only getting up to ch. 70 w/ the S2, but at least I can actually _watch tv_ now.

I understand that things happen, but Tivo's postion that it's a hardware failure despite the fact that it's happening to everyone at once is probably the most frustrating thing I've ever experienced with a company. I'm calling tomorrow to get my last two months of service credited, and I'm requesting a replacement box, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay for it.

This sucks because it's such a GREAT product when it works, but what the hell? It was hard enough to justify to my friends why I spent500 bucks and almost 20 a month when the have a DVR that costs $10 a month and that's it. And theirs never fail! Obviously Tivo destroys cable DVR's but let's be realistic, the MAIN component is that it has to work, and my Tivo doesn't.

Huge let down. Sorry, it's late, and I just missed the end of the mets game because of this lock-up problem. I wasn't even watching a digital or encrypted channel. Whatever.


----------



## Spiff

I fixed my freezing/rebooting problem. It was a hard drive issue. I was hesitant, due to all of the speculation here and elsewhere that it was probably software and a new HD wouldn't fix it. But, I ended up buying the 1TB Western Digital WD10000CSRTL found at Fry's for $169 - http://shop3.frys.com/product/5528610

On the first try, I used the instructions found here (using DD to copy the drive and MFSTool to expand it.) When I put the new drive in and started up the TiVo, I had no background screens or THX intro, the CableCards wouldn't get a signal, and the freezing was worse than before.

Then I used the free instructions and files found at http://tivo.upgrade-instructions.com/ (MFSTools all the way.)

If that hadn't worked, my next step was going to be to try InstantCake and put a clean image on it. Thankfully, it didn't get to that point.

I'm not saying it's the hard drive for ALL of you, but in my case, it was definitely the solution. I've had this Series3 since launch, and it has Lifetime. Now I have quadruple the storage and a TiVo that runs perfectly.


----------



## richsadams

Spiff said:


> I fixed my freezing/rebooting problem. It was a hard drive issue. <snip>


Excellent news (and post). :up: Glad to hear things are back to normal...with lots more real estate to boot!


----------



## kirkfrey

anyone that had the reboot when "coax plugged in" problem have it solved by 9.4?? I am hoping that this is the long awaited fix...


----------



## MikeAndrews

loubob57 said:


> Don't know if this is the same thing ...
> 
> Twice in the last few days my S3 has been in a state where it is outputting no video or audio. The remote makes the LED on the front panel blink but I get no other response to remote clicks (no menus screens). I am able to see the list of recordings in TiVo desktop so the network is working. I power cycle and it works properly again.





netringer said:


> We have a match! I had that problem, too!  It locked up while the receiver was powered off.
> 
> THAT issue is with the HDMI connect. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6460095#post6460095
> 
> It's been rock solid since I rerouted the HDMI cable.
> 
> So there as at least two of us who have the problem that nobody else has ever had.





bmgoodman said:


> I have that problem, too, but my HDMI goes direct to my HDTV. I can still access Now Playing from my computer or remotely from my S2 until several minutes later when the S3 reboots. Note that the S3 comes out of Standby (based on OLED clock turning on), but never displays to the screen. Nor will the S3 go back to standby once this occurs.
> 
> I did replace the HD with a new 1 TB WD green drive. The problem has not gone away.


I want to note that this problem in my case was not a matter of just the video output going away. The history in the To-Do list said, "Not recorded because the power was off...." so it was a real dead-as-doornail lockup each time. The only thing that worked during the dead time was the "command received" response LED on the front panel, responding to the remote or panel buttons, with no life otherwsie.


----------



## Bill Dauterive

First time poster, 4 time Tivo buyer. Need help with my S3. I'm on my 3rd S3 box and am about to get a 4th. My first box was pixelating and freezing, so I got a 2nd, but that was not responding to the remote, and my 3rd is freezing and turns the screen purple. I am completely lost and Tivo CS is nice but not helpful. Any ideas other than changing boxes each month? Thanks!


----------



## guppies

jscozz said:


> I have had my Series 3 since they came out... never a problem. Plain vanilla stock unit... no mods except adding an external eSATA a couple months ago. Just yesterday it started acting funny... slow operation. Rebooted once. Now when I power cycle it, it goes through the entire start-up... through "just a few more minutes"... does teh THX logo... then the Tivo animation... then comes to the orange screen... the menu takes about 20 more seconds to show up. Once it does, the remote and rfromt panel controls do not do anything. First item "Now playing" is highlighted but nothing I do has any effect... no remote or front panel buttons. It also appears that the background smoke animation is moving slow and jumpy.
> 
> Any suggetsions on what I can do to fix this?


I have had this start happening as well lately. I wonder if it is something TIVO did?


----------



## deepeddy

Good info that tuning away from HD stations makes a difference. TiVo support told me yesterday that there was a fix in beta and that it would be out in early August. I gotta say, much as I love the product, "We have a fix for a problem that makes your box almost useless and we won't let you try it out for a few more weeks" is not very good customer service.

Unless the beta software has a tendency to erase the hard drive, it can't be any worse than not running it.


----------



## Tazznum1

Are we sure that a patch is in order to fix it or is it the hard drive itself? I replaced my hard drive and now it works again.


----------



## deepeddy

Mine is having the problem even when there is no HD in the mix.

I think I'm going to look into replacing the hard drive. Seems like it's actually less hassle to do it myself than to have TiVo involved, especially since I'm well out of warranty anyway.


----------



## deepeddy

Spiff said:


> Then I used the free instructions and files found at http://tivo.upgrade-instructions.com/ (MFSTools all the way.)


I can't figure out these instructions. Which model is my Series 3? My Service number appears to be 648-... and that isn't in their table.

I'm not buying another drive until I have instructions that I can make sense of.


----------



## richsadams

Tazznum1 said:


> Are we sure that a patch is in order to fix it or is it the hard drive itself? I replaced my hard drive and now it works again.


My WAG is that it could be both a software _and _hardware issue. Whatever happened w/v9.3x it caused some units to have problems...others not. Our S3 has an upgraded drive and has never had a problem. Our THD is stock and it's never had a problem. But, again, it's obvious that others have. My take is that something in the recent software caused an issue that can be resolved with a new hard drive.

A while back I speculated that it had something to do with HDD cache. Stock TiVo hard drives only have 2MB of cache. Most hard drives on today's market have at least 8MB and some as much as 32MB cache. (The WD drive in our S3 has 16MB.) 2MB may have worked in the past, but I always thought that high throughput (particularly Hi Def) could cause issues for HDD's with only 2MB of cache. If v9.3x had an impact on the amount of cache TiVo requires to work properly that may speak to why many people are having problems. It seems like it's a signal processing issue which is affected by both the hardware capabilities as well as software commands, not to mention the quality of the local signal itself. If TiVo engineered v9.4x to get around that somehow (requiring less cache?), it may resolve some of the issues.

Again, I'm not a software or hardware engineer and only know enough to be dangerous.  But that might explain some of the reasons why a number of people are having issues since v9.3x was introduced, why disconnecting the coax helps some or just avoiding Hi Def channels helps others. But it's all speculation on my part.


----------



## RoyK

Intelligent piece of reasoning.


----------



## Beachbum55

Based on my last call with Tivo technical support, they have no confidence that 9.4 will solve the lock-up/freeze/re-boot problem (i.e. re-boot cycle starts when cable is plugged in). As Rich mentioned, 9.3 has hosed some selected S3's...mine being one. 

My choice was to either replace the HD or go with a free exchange under warranty. I shipped my S3 off to Tivo today and hope that I have better luck with the replacement unit.


----------



## Tazznum1

My Tivo S3 died right after the 9.4 update.


----------



## Duke

richsadams said:


> My WAG is that it could be both a software _and _hardware issue....My take is that something in the recent software caused an issue that can be resolved with a new hard drive.
> 
> A while back I speculated that it had something to do with HDD cache. Stock TiVo hard drives only have 2MB of cache. Most hard drives on today's market have at least 8MB and some as much as 32MB cache. (The WD drive in our S3 has 16MB.) 2MB may have worked in the past, but I always thought that high throughput (particularly Hi Def) could cause issues for HDD's with only 2MB of cache. If v9.3x had an impact on the amount of cache TiVo requires to work properly that may speak to why many people are having problems. It seems like it's a signal processing issue which is affected by both the hardware capabilities as well as software commands, not to mention the quality of the local signal itself. If TiVo engineered v9.4x to get around that somehow (requiring less cache?), it may resolve some of the issues....But that might explain some of the reasons why a number of people are having issues since v9.3x was introduced, why disconnecting the coax helps some or just avoiding Hi Def channels helps others. But it's all speculation on my part.


If this truly is the case, then one has to wonder if TiVo is trying to avoid a general recall of their low cache HDD's; at all cost. For those of us who solved the freeze problem by installing a new hard disk, they've already transferred that expense to us. But their support expenses must be mounting, as more and more folks tie up the support lines, send in their S3's for exchange (in some cases multiple times), etc. 9.4 had better work miracles!


----------



## Ziggy86

Duke said:


> If this truly is the case, then one has to wonder if TiVo is trying to avoid a general recall of their low cache HDD's; at all cost. For those of us who solved the freeze problem by installing a new hard disk, they've already transferred that expense to us. But their support expenses must be mounting, as more and more folks tie up the support lines, send in their S3's for exchange (in some cases multiple times), etc. 9.4 had better work miracles!


If this turns out to be a hard drive issue then I hope that Tivo lets us to a self install of a new hard dirve replacement so we do not have to send in our units.

I got rid of my cable boxes for the new Tivo HD with cable cards so if I have to send it in for replacement then I will be without TV for who knows how long


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> A while back I speculated that it had something to do with HDD cache. Stock TiVo hard drives only have 2MB of cache. Most hard drives on today's market have at least 8MB and some as much as 32MB cache. (The WD drive in our S3 has 16MB.) 2MB may have worked in the past, but I always thought that high throughput (particularly Hi Def) could cause issues for HDD's with only 2MB of cache. If v9.3x had an impact on the amount of cache TiVo requires to work properly that may speak to why many people are having problems. It seems like it's a signal processing issue which is affected by both the hardware capabilities as well as software commands, not to mention the quality of the local signal itself. If TiVo engineered v9.4x to get around that somehow (requiring less cache?), it may resolve some of the issues.


But that ignores the fact there are many people whose S3 (not a TivoHD) had no problem whatsoever with 9.3 with the original stock 250GB drive. Like me! (I have just recently upgraded finally to 1TB internal, but ran 9.3 fine for many months.)


----------



## Beachbum55

Ziggy86 said:


> If this turns out to be a hard drive issue then I hope that Tivo lets us to a self install of a new hard dirve replacement so we do not have to send in our units.
> 
> I got rid of my cable boxes for the new Tivo HD with cable cards so if I have to send it in for replacement then I will be without TV for who knows how long


I doubt that Tivo will let people self install the HD replacement. They aren't even fully acknowledging that 9.3 is the problem, so it's likely that people have three options. In warranty swap (~$0 to $50), out of warranty swap (~$175) or replace hard drives.

I'm living with basic cable (no cable box) until my replacement S3 arrives.


----------



## Tazznum1

Why pay $175 to them for a refurb when you can get 750 gig on ebay for $200? (What I did).


----------



## greg_burns

Tazznum1 said:


> Why pay $175 to them for a refurb when you can get 750 gig on ebay for $200? (What I did).


Did you receive it yet? Fix your problem?


----------



## Tazznum1

Yes. Thank you. I had my bf install it on Sunday and it is working perfectly again.:up:


----------



## greg_burns

Tazznum1 said:


> Yes. Thank you. I had my bf install it on Sunday and it is working perfectly again.:up:


Has it updated back to 9.4 yet?


----------



## Beachbum55

Tazznum1 said:


> Why pay $175 to them for a refurb when you can get 750 gig on ebay for $200? (What I did).


Agree 100%...no brainer if you have to pay an out of warranty charge. I paid $0, so I decided to hold off upgrading the drive for now.


----------



## Tazznum1

greg_burns said:


> Has it updated back to 9.4 yet?


Yes, the next day I believe. So far so good.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> But that ignores the fact there are many people whose S3 (not a TivoHD) had no problem whatsoever with 9.3 with the original stock 250GB drive. Like me! (I have just recently upgraded finally to 1TB internal, but ran 9.3 fine for many months.)


Wholeheartedly agree. I didn't mean to infer that the problems were isolated to THD's _or _S3's as it's obvious that many (probably a majority) were/are completely unaffected. Our S3 was never affected by software updates even before I upgraded the internal HDD.

Since v9.3x had no effect on some but affected others negatively points to the only variable I can think of: the signal and how it's processed. If replacing the hard drive resolves the issue the only difference is the hard drive's cache (AFAIK). But again...it's all speculation on my part.

TiVo's wild ride during the initial introduction of the THD and cable cards (particularly Scientific Atlanta's) almost certainly led them down the road of trying to address signal issues with their software. They were pretty successful back then but I'm wondering if we're seeing some of the same problems cropping up with some S3's (and probably THD's) now.

Fingers crossed v9.4x fixes some or all of the problems...but as I've said, that's probably wishful thinking.


----------



## deepeddy

I've concluded that avoiding HD channels makes my system more stable, but not completely. It seems like I have to stay off of HD channels for quite some time (and through multiple reboots) and it starts to stabilize.

I've just made every change I can think of to help the box do less work (video playback in native mode, turn off suggestions, unsubscribe to things I don't watch, record others in SD instead of HD, etc)


----------



## e30cabrio

The bulk of my problem happens on non cablecard channels (USA, MSNBC, Comedy Central) All non HD, all basic cable channels.

I got 9.4 pushed to the S3 and the problem is better but still there.

I was supposed to have a replacement Friday but UPS "misrouted" it.


----------



## lancepa92

Reading all this and just wondering...

Has anyone with an upgraded drive in their S3 still had problems with freeze and lock-up? Or, do upgraded drives always seem to avoid and/or solve the problem?

Seems like I haven't seen a post from anyone who replaced the hard drive and *still* had problems. (Which would leave me to believe that in can be solved or avoided with a hard drive replacement.)

My out of warranty S3 is pretty much locked up all the time now, and I'm contemplating if I should just go ahead and upgrade the drive.


----------



## deepeddy

Yesterday, I removed the antenna coax and today the box was working great and I watched several hours of recorded TV. I then plugged the coax back in and within 30 minutes was the box was freezing and rebooting itself. I removed the coax and it still is behaving poorly. It does seem that removing the coax makes a difference, but it takes a bunch of reboots before it gets better. It's as if there's a background process trying to clean up after whatever's coming in over the coax and that background process is what's causing the problems.

I'm now leaving the OTA coax unplugged and am removing all HD programming from my list until we have a fix.


----------



## mrdazzo7

lancepa92 said:


> Reading all this and just wondering...
> 
> Has anyone with an upgraded drive in their S3 still had problems with freeze and lock-up? Or, do upgraded drives always seem to avoid and/or solve the problem?
> 
> Seems like I haven't seen a post from anyone who replaced the hard drive and *still* had problems. (Which would leave me to believe that in can be solved or avoided with a hard drive replacement.)
> 
> My out of warranty S3 is pretty much locked up all the time now, and I'm contemplating if I should just go ahead and upgrade the drive.


I'm wondering this myself. I've read some people still had problems and others were solved with a drive replacement. At this point, I'm just gonna try that. I posted a video of my problem and people's comments indicate to me that it's HD failure, as opposed to the problem everyone else is having. At this point I'll try anything.


----------



## richsadams

lancepa92 said:


> Reading all this and just wondering...
> 
> Has anyone with an upgraded drive in their S3 still had problems with freeze and lock-up? Or, do upgraded drives always seem to avoid and/or solve the problem?
> 
> Seems like I haven't seen a post from anyone who replaced the hard drive and *still* had problems. (Which would leave me to believe that in can be solved or avoided with a hard drive replacement.)
> 
> My out of warranty S3 is pretty much locked up all the time now, and I'm contemplating if I should just go ahead and upgrade the drive.


IIRC there was one, possibly two posts on other threads that indicated that a TiVo still had problems after replacing the hard drive. I don't recall if they used a fresh image and if not, it's possible that whatever the problem they had was transferred to the new drive if it was fully copied over. However AFAIK no one else has had recurring issues after a hard drive replacement/upgrade. Again, our Series3 didn't have any issues prior to installing the upgraded drive nor has it had any since. Of course, YMMV.


----------



## Generic

richsadams said:


> IIRC there was one, possibly two posts on other threads that indicated that a TiVo still had problems after replacing the hard drive. I don't recall if they used a fresh image and if not, it's possible that whatever the problem they had was transferred to the new drive if it was fully copied over. However AFAIK no one else has had recurring issues after a hard drive replacement/upgrade. Again, our Series3 didn't have any issues prior to installing the upgraded drive nor has it had any since. Of course, YMMV.


I still have the lockup/freeze problem after replacing the HD from Weaknees. I am just waiting on 9.4 hoping that will help or resolve the problem although I don't have high hopes.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6421118#post6421118


----------



## richsadams

Interesting and thanks for that. Did you happen to contact weaknees about it? They are usually very helpful and it would be good to know their take on your particular situation. TIA for any additional info. :up:


----------



## Ziggy86

Generic said:


> I still have the lockup/freeze problem after replacing the HD from Weaknees. I am just waiting on 9.4 hoping that will help or resolve the problem although I don't have high hopes.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6421118#post6421118


Just curious, are you using HDMI cables?


----------



## Beachbum55

Ziggy86 - You also asked about HDMI cables on another thread. What's the issue/connection with the HDMI cables? I used the HDMI cables for a full year with absolutely no freeze-ups, locking or re-boots, until V 9.3 killed my S3.


----------



## Generic

Ziggy86 said:


> Just curious, are you using HDMI cables?


Yes, I am using HDMI cables going to the DVI (with adapter) input of the TV. Most of my lockups/freezes seem to occur in the Tivo Central screens and moving between those screens. It occasionally happens in live TV when I FF/rewind etc.


----------



## richsadams

Beachbum55 said:


> Ziggy86 - You also asked about HDMI cables on another thread. What's the issue/connection with the HDMI cables? I used the HDMI cables for a full year with absolutely no freeze-ups, locking or re-boots, until V 9.3 killed my S3.


There are a number of instances where the HDMI handshake has been the source of trouble resulting in lost audio/video and freeze-ups for TiVo and various HT components (Sony TV's and Onkyo receivers mostly IIRC).

It doesn't sound like your situation is HDMI problem related, but trying component or even composite connections might be worth a try to be sure.


----------



## JimWall

My freezing problem was a little different. I had 1 TB internal and 1 TB external and was working fine with 9.3 for months. The freezing problems people complain about started and got worse. So some kind of error starts and TIVO does not handle it properly and it just gets worse. 
My best guess is dropping ultra DMA I/O speed due to I/O errors and lower speed can't keep up. Either TIVO is doing this or drive is doing this. In Windows the drive has to be reinitialized when this happens to return to the TOP I/O speed. Windows XP SP2 now overrides this behavior and there is a fix to Windows Server so TIVO can be patched also.

Solution was to divorce the external drive and the problems went away. Of course I did a DD copy from old internal to new internal (Hitachi to WD) and did the divorce using the copy on WD. No problems have occurred since. I am waiting for some kind of patch to be released before adding the external 1 TB back. Hopefully before the fall TV season gets into full swing.


----------



## mrdazzo7

3I posted this on my other thread but figured I'd jot it down here as well... I just called Tivo and the girl told me they're fully aware of the Coax-related-to-freeze/reboot issue. The only problem is, she said I'm the first person she's talked to who's gotten 9.4 and STILL has problems... WTF... And since 9.4 is still rolling out, they have no idea when the next update will come. I might do a repair but god help them if it comes back still f'ed up.

Can someone who's actually sent their S3 in for a repair because of this issue report back--was the issue solved upon return?


----------



## shanebowman

THis is my third tivo and have never had any HD issues. It seems odd that everyone wants to blame the HD when all the freeze up issues directly follow an update.


----------



## Beachbum55

mrdazzo7 said:


> 3I posted this on my other thread but figured I'd jot it down here as well... I just called Tivo and the girl told me they're fully aware of the Coax-related-to-freeze/reboot issue. The only problem is, she said I'm the first person she's talked to who's gotten 9.4 and STILL has problems... WTF... And since 9.4 is still rolling out, they have no idea when the next update will come. I might do a repair but god help them if it comes back still f'ed up.
> 
> Can someone who's actually sent their S3 in for a repair because of this issue report back--was the issue solved upon return?


My replacement S3 should arrive late this week, so I'll let you know how it goes. As a stockholder and advocate of Tivo products, this situation is pretty disappointing. They really screwed the pooch with this software debacle.

This reminds me of the early days of Linksys. Once Cisco got a hold of Linksys, I never ran into another problem with my home wireless router. I wish someone big (read Apple) would buy Tivo.


----------



## e30cabrio

I got my replacement today and recorded a few shows on channels that were pixilating in the outgoing S3. There was no pixialtion at all so far.

It does not have cable cards yet Cox is bringing new ones for it tomorrow.

I'll post the results when they are installed.


----------



## oneitchyeye

mrdazzo7 said:


> 3I posted this on my other thread but figured I'd jot it down here as well... I just called Tivo and the girl told me they're fully aware of the Coax-related-to-freeze/reboot issue. The only problem is, she said I'm the first person she's talked to who's gotten 9.4 and STILL has problems... WTF... And since 9.4 is still rolling out, they have no idea when the next update will come. I might do a repair but god help them if it comes back still f'ed up.
> 
> Can someone who's actually sent their S3 in for a repair because of this issue report back--was the issue solved upon return?


So I called tonight to complain about my lockups and reboots with the coax connected. I talked to a supervisor who told me there was no way to push out 9.4 to my S3. I think that is crap. He told me it could be 1-2 weeks before it is rolled out. Right now it is still being released in limited groups and people (though not all) are having great success with it. I told him I was a bit upset having my only HD reciever become a $1000 brick since it is essentially useless rebooting within minutes of being plugged into cable but was told there is nothing he could do to help me. That is horrible, they found a way to update to 9.3a why can't they push out 9.4 do they think it might make my broken S3 "more" broken? I think that is terrible customer support. They need to have a way to push out and roll back upgrades just for situations like this.

So I guess I have 1-2 more weeks of lock ups and reboots. Kinda fun looking at my recorded shows. Did I get the whole show or just 4 mins of it? Who knows. Seems all my HD recorded shows are 2-5 mins long now, good times.


----------



## richsadams

JimWall said:


> My freezing problem was a little different. I had 1 TB internal and 1 TB external and was working fine with 9.3 for months. The freezing problems people complain about started and got worse. So some kind of error starts and TIVO does not handle it properly and it just gets worse.
> My best guess is dropping ultra DMA I/O speed due to I/O errors and lower speed can't keep up. Either TIVO is doing this or drive is doing this. In Windows the drive has to be reinitialized when this happens to return to the TOP I/O speed. Windows XP SP2 now overrides this behavior and there is a fix to Windows Server so TIVO can be patched also.
> 
> Solution was to divorce the external drive and the problems went away. Of course I did a DD copy from old internal to new internal (Hitachi to WD) and did the divorce using the copy on WD. No problems have occurred since. I am waiting for some kind of patch to be released before adding the external 1 TB back. Hopefully before the fall TV season gets into full swing.


Interesting and logical speculation...thanks. :up: Were you able to test the eSATA drive/cable/enclosure to be sure it wasn't simply an expansion drive issue? IIRC others had the same symptoms and it turned out to be a bad drive (or cable or enclosure).

I don't think I'd have the patience to wait and see if the eSATA drive caused the issues or not...I'd hook it up again just to see. But that's me...zero patience.


----------



## richsadams

oneitchyeye said:


> They need to have a way to push out and roll back upgrades just for situations like this.


 There have been a number of posts over the years that said that TiVo was able to push an upgrade to a specific box. However, that was _after _the initial trial period (that v9.4x is currently in) so hang in there. Once the switch is thrown I'd call them back and insist that your TiVo receive it.

With regard to software "rollbacks", it's never happened and right, wrong or otherwise, my money says it never will.


----------



## JimWall

richsadams said:


> Interesting and logical speculation...thanks. :up: Were you able to test the eSATA drive/cable/enclosure to be sure it wasn't simply an expansion drive issue? IIRC others had the same symptoms and it turned out to be a bad drive (or cable or enclosure).
> 
> I don't think I'd have the patience to wait and see if the eSATA drive caused the issues or not...I'd hook it up again just to see. But that's me...zero patience.


I tried different cables and even got a cable to go directly to drive bypassing the enclosure's connector. It made no difference. 
Also put drive in two different PCs and got different UDMA speeds in BIOS. That got me digging and found the info on Windows. Maybe there is something to TIVO certifying drives. You are OK if drives are working fine but once errors start your TIVO starts a death march. Either TIVO has extra code to handle certified drives or certified drives have gone through more QA.


----------



## deepeddy

I am now dding my original drive onto a new drive. If I stop posting here, that means changing the drive solve the problem.


----------



## mrdazzo7

So I just called Tivo for the 5th time and the rep told me the 9.4 I got back on 7/15 was the BETA version (probably pushed after I called originally), and that the 9.4 official release is going out starting today, that will specificlaly address teh freeze/reboot issue. She mentioned that I can't force the update, it has to download during it's regular call overnight, and that everything should be ok by tomorrow. 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I would love for this fiasco to finally be over without me having to shell out any money or send my unit in for a repair. I guess I'll report back in the morning.


----------



## vazquezj324

GL MRdazzo! We are all in anticpation of your results!


----------



## Tazznum1

Good luck!


My S3 died (stuttering, stammering, freezing, jumping then rebooting) 5 minutes after the 9.4 update. Coincidence? Don't know. I finally replaced the HD and so far so good.


----------



## deepeddy

Interesting...I got a number of IO errors reading from the original drive. We'll see how this looks when I put the new drive in the system.


----------



## richsadams

Tazznum1 said:


> Good luck!
> 
> My S3 died (stuttering, stammering, freezing, jumping then rebooting) 5 minutes after the 9.4 update. Coincidence? Don't know. I finally replaced the HD and so far so good.


Sorry to hear that the latest upgrade did a number on you. But glad to hear that things are back to normal after replacing the hard drive. Is it on v9.4x yet?

Upgrades have crippled or even killed some TiVo's over the years...some upgrades have done more "damage" than others. There's plenty of speculation as to why, but it's safe to say that any number of posts will show up after they flip the switch on v9.4x (today?). The good news is that a hard reboot (unplug TiVo and plug it back in) can resolve many/most of the problems. Others are more serious and require a little more work but for a few others an upgrade can push the OEM hard drive over the edge and only a replacement can make things right again. Fingers crossed this latest upgrade will do more good than harm.

TIA to everyone keeping us updated on their situation. :up:


----------



## richsadams

JimWall said:


> I tried different cables and even got a cable to go directly to drive bypassing the enclosure's connector. It made no difference.
> Also put drive in two different PCs and got different UDMA speeds in BIOS. That got me digging and found the info on Windows. Maybe there is something to TIVO certifying drives. You are OK if drives are working fine but once errors start your TIVO starts a death march. Either TIVO has extra code to handle certified drives or certified drives have gone through more QA.


Hmmm...still interesting. TiVo HD's certainly have the code to recognize the approved eSATA drive via the model number. I'm not so sure Series3's have the same "action code" (for lack of a better term) although they also recognize drives by the model number. Based on more than a year's worth of posts on the eSATA FAQ thread, AFAIK there isn't any evidence that Series3's react one way or another to one drive or another other than they have a system failure when an eSATA drive doesn't behave properly.

More often than not problems boil down to the cable (but you've checked that) the enclosure (bridge/chip issues usually) or the drive itself. There are a number of posts where the OP even ran a basic diagnostic on the problem drive and came up with a clean bill of health, yet when they did a deep test (read/write all 0's across the drive/read) some problems came to light. Still others found no problems, yet things were fine when they installed a replacement drive. 

Agreed in any case that TiVo is very, very sensitive to even minor glitches when it comes to hard drives. Thanks for the data point!


----------



## deepeddy

The new drive wouldn't boot successfully. I'm trying to DD it again.


----------



## deepeddy

mmm....dd gave the exact same IO errors again...mine may be IO errors on the internal drive.


----------



## deepeddy

am doing the dd again with conv=noerror. I hadn't realized that it was bailing when it hit the first errors. This is taking FOR EVER! I can't believe that if there are IO errors on a drive in a TiVo that we can't tell


----------



## e30cabrio

I got the cable cards and have no lockups. I was happy, then I read the esata possibility which I have not hooked up yet as there are still programs on the old unit that I can't transfer and want to watch.

As far as targeting specific units for update both my outgoing & new units were pushed the 9.4 upgrade, the outgoing to try to resolve it and the new one as I wanted the functionality.


----------



## shanebowman

gotta love Tivo, three months beyond the one year with obvious issues for their hardware and I am graced with a $79 RMA fee instead of a $149 fee plus shipping to get a refurb with a 30 day warranty. Great $700 investment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't even get a kiss!


----------



## Beachbum55

My old S3 landed in Ft. Worth today, so I'm hoping I get my refurb unit on Friday or Monday. My S3 was less than a month out of warranty. They started at $149, then $79, but I pushed for and got $0...and they paid all freight.

Man, life without HD and Tivo sucks!


----------



## bareyb

Hi Gang. I think I may be in the same boat as some of you. My S3 has started to get sluggish, and that is followed by a lock up and reboot. It's happenend three times in the last 12 hours. I do have an old school eSata expanded drive (not the TiVo approved model but the same one Rich uses here). 

My questions. 

1. If I get a new TiVo, does Comcast have to come back out there to install the cable cards again?

2. Can I simply pull out my hard drive, send it somewhere, get it cloned exactly, and then pop it back in and it's all fixed? If so, where would be the best place to send it?


----------



## Beachbum55

bareyb said:


> Hi Gang. I think I may be in the same boat as some of you. My S3 has started to get sluggish, and that is followed by a lock up and reboot. It's happenend three times in the last 12 hours. I do have an old school eSata expanded drive (not the TiVo approved model but the same one Rich uses here).
> 
> My questions.
> 
> 1. If I get a new TiVo, does Comcast have to come back out there to install the cable cards again?
> 
> 2. Can I simply pull out my hard drive, send it somewhere, get it cloned exactly, and then pop it back in and it's all fixed? If so, where would be the best place to send it?


I pulled my Comcast cards prior to sending the box back to Tivo and made a note as to the position of the card. It's my understanding (I'll be testing the theory soon) that reinstalling the cards and bringing the refurb unit back-up won't require a visit by Comcast.

Not sure on your question regarding the drive. If the drive is crapping out or has been corrupted, you may not want or be able to clone it.


----------



## JimWall

My understanding is that each time a Cablecard is inserted into a TIVO a new unique host ID is created. The cable company must be told the new host ID. They may even have to redo the entire setup process for your account. Unforturnately some require a truck roll to perform this simple task.


----------



## Duke

I had to get Brighthouse Networks to roll a truck to reinitialize my cable cards when I replaced my hard drive. The replacement drive came from DVRUpgrades, and it solved the freeze/reboot problem I was having after the 9.3 update. 

Some folks have reported on the forums that they were lucky enough to have their existing cards work with their new drives. If you get a replacement TiVo, for sure you'll have to reinitialize the cable cards.

YMMV.


----------



## e30cabrio

My update is pretty grim. I spent hours setting up the replacement unit. (you know guided setup, service updates, inputting all the season passes etc)

Went to bed and in the morning awoke to all of the front panel lights on and the first of the powering up screens.

I waited 10 minutes and there was no change so I unplugged & plunged it in and same thing. 

I had to pull the cable cards, call Cox who's surly cs drone insisted on sending a tech, luckily one benefit of all my troubles is I have my area's team lead's card & cel so I called him and they initialized the cards for me.

Now I get to do it again today (assuming UPS doesn't mess up again and not deliver)


----------



## Tazznum1

I didn't have to get the cable cards wrapped back into the system. Over 1 1/2 weeks and no issues with the cable cards with the new HD. :up:  My tivo was updated with 9.4 the next day the new HD was installed. So far so good.


----------



## Beachbum55

I received my refurb S3 from Tivo yesterday. I wrote down the SN for both cable cards and plugged the cards back in (same slots as my original S3) and powered the puppy up. I went thorugh the guided set-up and everything seems to be working so far. No need to call Comcast as both cards seem to be fully operational and all of my channels work.

The only weird thing, is that the box came with V 8.04xxx. It hasn't updated to 9.4 yet and I don't see the option to connect to my S3 to my other TV box. 

One step at a time. Just getting all my settings in order and trying to bring some order back to my Tivo world.


----------



## richsadams

bareyb said:


> Hi Gang. I think I may be in the same boat as some of you. My S3 has started to get sluggish, and that is followed by a lock up and reboot. It's happenend three times in the last 12 hours. I do have an old school eSata expanded drive (not the TiVo approved model but the same one Rich uses here).
> 
> My questions.
> 
> 1. If I get a new TiVo, does Comcast have to come back out there to install the cable cards again?
> 
> 2. Can I simply pull out my hard drive, send it somewhere, get it cloned exactly, and then pop it back in and it's all fixed? If so, where would be the best place to send it?


Hey Bary, long time no see...which until now is a good thing I guess. 

Here's my take...

1. Maybe. As noted above and IIRC others have had success DIY and others not...perhaps it's the luck of the draw. If you do opt for a new TiVo I'd try running guided setup with your existing cards and say a prayer all the while planning on a truck roll. In fact, I think I'd schedule a truck roll since it'll probably be a few days before you'd see them anyway and then cancel it if all goes well.

2. Before doing anything, just for the heck of it, I'd run the TiVo diagnostics/Kickstarts #57 and if that doesn't do it, #58. If that still doesn't do it I'd pull the drive, connect it to your PC and run a regular program like WD's Lifeguard Diagnostic. If there's a problem...problem solved. If not, you could use Instant Cake to re-image it (or a new drive) which is much cheaper than getting anyone else to do anything or buying a pre-imaged drive. (If you replace the drive you _will _have to have your cableco pay a visit to redo your cable cards.)

I wouldn't discount the eSATA drive, cable or enclosure either. You could try replacing the cable with the recommended SIIG Serial ATA external cable for less than $10. I'd also test that drive. Worst case, before kicking your current internal drive to the curb or replacing it, I'd properly divorce the eSATA drive to see if things return to normal. You'll lose most or all of your recordings, but at least you'd know which drive to blame.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!


----------



## bareyb

Hey Rich. Yeah, it's been all but perfect for several months. I forced a reboot the other day and at least for now, it seems to be back to normal. It even got the update 9.4 last night, rebooted, and all seems well today. I'm hoping it was just an anomaly but if it gives me any more trouble I will definitely follow the steps you outlined. Thanks Rich!


----------



## richsadams

Cool. Bad TiVo...BAD TiVo.  Let's hope it behaves itself from now on!


----------



## moonscape

loved 9.4, for the first 12 hours that is.

got my first lock-up problem right after 9.4 on my 2 month (?) old, stock, series 3. had sound, black screen, would go to tivo central. did a hard reboot and crossing my fingers.


----------



## mrdazzo7

mrdazzo7 said:


> So I just called Tivo for the 5th time and the rep told me the 9.4 I got back on 7/15 was the BETA version (probably pushed after I called originally), and that the 9.4 official release is going out starting today, that will specificlaly address teh freeze/reboot issue. She mentioned that I can't force the update, it has to download during it's regular call overnight, and that everything should be ok by tomorrow.
> 
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I would love for this fiasco to finally be over without me having to shell out any money or send my unit in for a repair. I guess I'll report back in the morning.


Just to update, I received the full version of 9.4 today and it threw my S3 into a reboot loop until i eventually unplugged the coax, and it booted up fine. As of right now, the problems are still 100% in effect. I swear to god I'm about one week away from getting cablevisions' DVR. I hate it, but CHRIST, at least it works! Tivo should seriously be ashamed of themselves at this point--way to create a product that turns useless after a software UPGRADE.


----------



## richsadams

mrdazzo7 said:


> Just to update, I received the full version of 9.4 today and it threw my S3 into a reboot loop until i eventually unplugged the coax, and it booted up fine. As of right now, the problems are still 100% in effect. I swear to god I'm about one week away from getting cablevisions' DVR. I hate it, but CHRIST, at least it works! Tivo should seriously be ashamed of themselves at this point--way to create a product that turns useless after a software UPGRADE.


Sorry to hear that you're still having issues with your TiVo. Looks like you have a couple of options. Did you already try having your cableco check everything out and replace the cable cards? Some here have gotten things straightened out that way. It's a pain of course and not always a remedy, but might be worth a try.

You can certainly kick it to the curb, but if it were me I'd be back on the phone with TiVo getting a replacement. IIRC you've had it for less than a year so it should fall under the $49 labor replacement charge. (Some folks have been able to press them for a free exchange.) Could the replacement have problems? There's no guarantees in life but odds are that it won't.

I don't know how computer savvy you are but if you're willing to pull the TiVo hard drive and connect it to a PC you could try re-imaging it using Instant Cake which has worked for some (but not all).

Then you have the option of replacing the TiVo hard drive completely, either using WinMFS or IC to image a fresh (larger?) drive or buying a pre-imaged drive from DVRUpgrade or Weaknees. That's worked for quite a few people. (AFAIK for everyone but I may have missed a post or two along the line.)

Historically upgrades have caused some TiVo's to go crazy and some to die. There's plenty of speculation as to why, but whatever the cause, it's frustrating and it appears that you've been a TiVo user for a while now. Going to a cableco DVR would be painful if it's anything like the one's we had for a short time. Is it fair that TiVo's like ours have been working fine over the years and yours isn't? Or that you might have to spend some more money to get it working again? Of course not and you have a lot of folks sympathy here including mine. However unfortunately other than making it clear to TiVo that you're really unhappy, there aren't a lot of other choices.

Best of luck and hope things work out!


----------



## mrdazzo7

I just called Tivo and put in for an exchange, as the rep agreed that it's a hard drive problem. I did the advance exchange and she put in next-day delivery so I should have it by Monday/Tuesday. I'd rather pay the $49 fee then try to install a new drive myself, since I'm a little slow when it comes to that stuff. I'll just get an eSata down the line if I need more space. 

So, here's to hoping the new box works because I don't know if my nerves can handle this for much longer. Plus we're teetering a little too close to the new season. All I can say is, thank god this happened in the summer. 

Wish me luck...


----------



## richsadams

mrdazzo7 said:


> I just called Tivo and put in for an exchange, as the rep agreed that it's a hard drive problem. <snip>
> 
> Wish me luck...


Okay, we're all pulling for you!  Keep us posted. :up:


----------



## Beachbum55

I received the 9.4 update on my refurb S3 on Friday night. The only immediate issue that I noticed, was that the S3 didn't see my Pioneer Tivo box (but the Pioneer could see the S3). I restarted the S3 and all is well. Keeping my fingers crossed and knocking on wood that the S3 is stable...for now.


----------



## mickeymammoth

Oh no! My series 3 is exhibiting the dreaded slow menus/rebooting problem that is resolved by unplugging the coax. Am I right that this is a hard drive issue? I tried the 57 thingy, and that didn't help. I'm well out of warranty. Do I have to buy a new hard drive? Should I bother calling Tivo tech support?

Background: About 2 weeks ago, pre-9.4 update, I noticed I wasn't getting an HD signal for one of my shows. It came back later that night. Then a week ago, post 9.4, all my HD channels stopped coming in. I called Comcast, and the tech support person was clueless, so they sent out a tech. He didn't do anything other than call headquarters and have them resend a signal or something. Then all the HD channels came back. Until tonight. Was taping an HD show, and kablooey. Rebooted a jillion times; did the 57 thingy, no joy. Unplugged the cable, watched some shows, plugged it back in and it was OK. But for how long?

Any advice is welcome. I guess if I have to get a new hard drive or tivo, at least I can watch my shows on the old tivo by unplugging the cable...


----------



## rcr2

If you get a replacement unit on exchange from TiVo you WILL have to have a visit from Comcast to re-synch your cards.

If you replace your drive using WinMFS yourself, you will NOT have to have a visit, as your cablecard settings will be preserved. Don't be scared. I was very nervous doing the operation, but it turned out to be very easy.

If you get a replacement drive from Weakness, I'm not sure. I think you may have to have a re-synch, but have no experience with that.


----------



## mickeymammoth

I guess I'll look into getting a new drive. Would hate to have to wait for Comcast to come out. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Beachbum55

rcr2 said:


> If you get a replacement unit on exchange from TiVo you WILL have to have a visit from Comcast to re-synch your cards.


I got a refurb S3 from Tivo and installed the cards and it worked out of the box. NO Comcast visit was required. Sounds like it's hit or miss.


----------



## lancepa92

Got the 9.4 update earlier this week on my stock Series3 - with high hopes.

Seemed fine for the first day, and I was even able to re-install my cable cards and get my digital and HD channels back.

Last night, it froze again - just like with 9.3. However, I was able to un-freeze by disconnecting the coax. Immediately, the menus were moving fast again, and recorded programs were accessible and playable.

Does this mean a hard drive replacement?


----------



## greg_burns

lancepa92 said:


> Does this mean a hard drive replacement?


Probably so... By "hardware issue", I assume he means bad drive.


TiVoJerry said:


> Sorry to say but that symptom was determined to be a hardware issue. We brought in several units and confirmed.
> 
> Disconnecting the RF input was just a red herring. Without a live feed, the disk had much less work to do and would appear to function "normally".


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Probably so... By "hardware issue", I assume he means bad drive.


I still think it has something to do with the minuscule 2MB of cache that the OEM TiVo hard drives have. Other than that, I can't imagine what the difference is between a stock TiVo hard drive and one you can buy off the shelf...which AFAIK takes care of the coax connection/freeze/reboot problem.

Can't blame TiVo for not wanting to recall all of their boxes to replace the hard drive though...particularly since it only affects some boxes. But what a pain for the owners!


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> Can't blame TiVo for not wanting to recall all of their boxes to replace the hard drive though...particularly since it only affects some boxes. But what a pain for the owners!


Whoa. I never read that from TivoJerry statement. I thought he was saying the ones they tested showing the issue simply had a defective drive. Nothing more. I don't think he was implying all of their drives were defective.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Whoa. I never read that from TivoJerry statement. I thought he was saying the ones they tested showing the issue simply had a defective drive. Nothing more. I don't think he was implying all of their drives were defective.


True enough, although he wasn't specific, only saying that it was a "hardware issue". I don't think that (most) of the drives are actually "defective" either. It seems to me that v9.3x had some sort of change that put a higher demand on the system, requiring more than the OEM hard drives could handle, at least for quite a few boxes.

IIRC many folks pulled and tested their OEM drives and they (the hard drives ) passed even the most stringent diagnostics, but they went ahead and replaced them and the problem coax/freeze issue disappeared. In my mind that says that it's a combination of the O/S software _and _the hardware, not that the OEM hard drives were actually failing.

That TiVo was able to resolve at least some of the issues with v9.4 tells me that they went back and modified the code which in turn caused a change in the I/O data stream which in effect allows the OEM drives to function properly again.

That non-scientific way of thinking led me to the conclusion that the reason upgraded drives worked while OEM drives didn't boiled down to the on-board cache differences (2MB for OEM's Vs 8MB to 32MB) for replacement drives.

All speculation and WAG's on my part however.


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> IIRC many folks pulled and tested their OEM drives and they (the hard drives ) passed even the most stringent diagnostics, but they went ahead and replaced them and the problem coax/freeze issue disappeared. In my mind that says that it's a combination of the O/S software _and _the hardware, not that the OEM hard drives were actually failing.


Yeah, but I would guess most used the opportunity to upgrade their drive. How many just reimaged the originally drive (since it passed muster) to see if is was just corrupted software? (How it got corrupted who knows, but it is just a computer afterall.) If the drive passes all tests, there is no reason it shouldn't live again with a fresh image.

Mabe *MickS* will try just that to satisfy our (my? ) curiosity.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6561467#post6561467


----------



## dennisdawg

Add one more to ther lock ups and reboots gang. Was working on Sunday. Went on a short trip, came back Wednsday and it doesn't work, just like in this thread. So, I guess I need to buy a hard drive? Is that the general thing?

Says it is on 9.4.


----------



## dennisdawg

. . . and Kickstart 57 leads to GSOD over and over, one S3 dead.


----------



## Carlos_E

My S3 is doing the same thing. Locking up and rebooting. I also have 9.4.

What are my options for repair? I called customer service and they're telling me I have to send my Tivo S3 back to them. Find a box to ship it in, pay for shipping, and pay $149 since I'm out of the 90 warranty. She also said when I send it back I *may* receive a Tivo HD instead since they're no longer selling the Tivo S3. I said to her why would I want an inferior DVR with less hours of recording time than the one I paid for? She didn't respond. Just silence. 

What are my options?


----------



## greg_burns

Carlos_E said:


> What are my options?


Buy InstantCake and reimage your current drive.
or
Buy a new bare drive and use WinMFS to copy current drive to it (preserving settings)

if that fails...

Buy a new bare drive and InstantCake.
or
Buy a preformatted drive from DVR Upgrade or Weaknees.


----------



## richsadams

Carlos_E said:


> My S3 is doing the same thing. Locking up and rebooting. I also have 9.4. <snip>
> 
> What are my options?


I'd echo Greg's post above as it does sound like the hard drive is failing (plus I'd keep the S3 and not risk getting a THD). But just for kicks (forgive the pun) you might want to try running TiVo's diagnostic programs called "kickstarts". It's worked for some, but not always.

Replacing your hard drive is a fairly easy process if you're comfortable connecting a hard drive to a PC. All of the info you need can be found on this post (Section III, #30) and/or at mfslive.org. Or as Greg mentioned, you also have the option of buying a pre-imaged drive from DVRUpgrade.com or weaknees.com but they are considerably more expensive than doing it yourself either using winMFS or Instant Cake . The silver lining to all of this is that you can significantly increase your TiVo's recording time if you opt to replace the hard drive with a larger model! :up:

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


----------



## alyssa

To everyone considering using WinMFS but worried, it's dead on easy with simple to follow instructions. The first internal upgrade I did to my S2 resulted in multiple GSOD's & repeated calls to Weeknees. Yeah, I even used a preformated drive from them- Needless to say I was a n00b.
Granted I've learned a bit since then but the WinMFS is wicked user friendly.

And the really nice part is a bigger HD.


----------



## dennisdawg

richsadams said:


> I'd echo Greg's post above as it does sound like the hard drive is failing (plus I'd keep the S3 and not risk getting a THD). But just for kicks (forgive the pun) you might want to try running TiVo's diagnostic programs called "kickstarts". It's worked for some, but not always.


Or that can kill your S3, as it did mine. Prior to running kickstart 57, I was at least able to use it to watch what was there and if the cable was not connected, it ran fine. After kickstart 57 the GSOD boot loop is all I have!

I am going to order a new hard drive and see what I can fix, but this might be my last TiVo thing. I have been using Tivo for years, had them break, fixed them, but this situation is just dumb, if it is 9.3/.4 related as it seems to be.

Tivo should not force updates. I should be able to pick.

So, it'll be a week or longer before the damn thing works again and even then, that is maybe!


----------



## greg_burns

dennisdawg said:


> Or that can kill your S3, as it did mine. Prior to running kickstart 57, I was at least able to use it to watch what was there and if the cable was not connected, it ran fine. After kickstart 57 the GSOD boot loop is all I have!
> 
> I am going to order a new hard drive and see what I can fix, but this might be my last TiVo thing. I have been using Tivo for years, had them break, fixed them, but this situation is just dumb, if it is 9.3/.4 related as it seems to be.
> 
> Tivo should not force updates. I should be able to pick.
> 
> So, it'll be a week or longer before the damn thing works again and even then, that is maybe!


You should test your drive for errors using a manufacturer's disc (Hitachi Fitness Test is a good one) before buying a new one. If it is the disk, you can't blame the upgrade. But other's HDs tested fine, yet the upgrade still broke them. Go figure.

If the drive is fine you could download and reimage with InstantCake and have a working Tivo again tonight.


----------



## richsadams

dennisdawg said:


> Or that can kill your S3, as it did mine. Prior to running kickstart 57, I was at least able to use it to watch what was there and if the cable was not connected, it ran fine. After kickstart 57 the GSOD boot loop is all I have!
> <snip>


Sorry to hear that your TiVo is not doing well. However MFS assert and/or fsfix (the built-in TiVo "kickstart" programs) cannot "kill" anything, they are simply diagnostic and repair programs. If one of these programs starts automatically it indicates that something is wrong. If there is corrupted data they can often remedy the situation. If there are bad hard drive sectors, faulty read/write heads, etc. there's nothing anyone or anything can do about it.

As often mentioned over the years, upgrades can cause marginal hard drives to go over the edge. Additional demands from upgraded software can do the same. It's unfortunate but a fact of computer life.

Greg's advice is good, try re-imaging the drive using IC before kicking it to the curb. If that doesn't work you can pick up a new (larger) drive, use IC for a fresh image and more than likely be back in business.

Best of luck! :up:


----------



## dennisdawg

richsadams said:


> Sorry to hear that your TiVo is not doing well. However MFS assert and/or fsfix (the built-in TiVo "kickstart" programs) cannot "kill" anything, they are simply diagnostic and repair programs. If one of these programs starts automatically it indicates that something is wrong. If there is corrupted data they can often remedy the situation. If there are bad hard drive sectors, faulty read/write heads, etc. there's nothing anyone or anything can do about it.


As presented, it did not happen automatically. The S3 was locking upon and stalling. It would run just fine without the cable connected, same symptoms as many have presented, but it worked, no errors.

I ran kickstart 57, which of course brings up a GSOD as part of its process. But, after that, all I get is the looping GSOD, so though my S3 was obviously ailing, running kickstart 57 did provide the final blow, killing it.



richsadams said:


> As often mentioned over the years, upgrades can cause marginal hard drives to go over the edge. Additional demands from upgraded software can do the same. It's unfortunate but a fact of computer life.


It is not often that electronic components such as hard drives, which are made up of numerous discreet components all of which can fail, fail in mass with the same symptoms, marginal or not. As a software engineer and one involved in support for computer based products for decades Id say that, when you have numerous units that all fail the same way after a software upgrade, then developers and those doing verification and validation missed some hardware configuration present in the population when writing their plans and selecting units for test.



richsadams said:


> Greg's advice is good, try re-imaging the drive using IC before kicking it to the curb. If that doesn't work you can pick up a new (larger) drive, use IC for a fresh image and more than likely be back in business.


I did not say I was kicking it to the curb. And, if indeed the problems is a hardware failure causing it to be marginal as youve proposed as the problem, then, since hardware does not usually change to a less marginal state, keeping the drive would likely be a waste of time. So, Ill replace the drive and deal with it . . . and if that doesnt work, then off to the recycling center for Tivo and thatll be the lest TiVo I will have bought.

That said, and having watched TiVo break Tivo in the past, and getting tired of having to fix such things, I figure that TiVo as we know it is just an interim step and other technology and vendors will soon eclipse them. TiVo is becoming too much trouble and too expensive to fix, just so as to be able to watch TV.

I have been loyal but feel that is about to end.


----------



## greg_burns

dennisdawg said:


> It is not often that electronic components such as hard drives, which are made up of numerous discreet components all of which can fail, fail in mass with the same symptoms, "marginal" or not. As a software engineer and one involved in support for computer based products for decades I'd say that, when you have numerous units that all fail the same way after a software upgrade, then developers and those doing verification and validation missed some hardware configuration present in the population when writing their plans and selecting units for test.


*
The upgrade can not cause a drive to fail.* Either your drive is bad and dying, or it is fine and just needs reimaged. I am not saying the upgrade cannot hose your Tivo. Obviously, it can and has. But the software, as written, runs fine on a working drive (assuming it got installed completely and correctly).

All the people having the same symptoms is simply because they are all running the same Tivo software. Apparently, sluggishness/reboots, but works fine with cable disconnected are common to all Tivos because of how the software is accessing the drive. *If your drive is going bad, you will probably see those same symptoms that everyone else does.*

IMO, the only verification and validation missed was testing how the software functions (or doesn't) on a defective drive. 



> I have been loyal but feel that is about to end.


Drives die. That is no reason to forgo having Tivo.


----------



## dennisdawg

greg_burns said:


> *
> The upgrade can not cause a drive to fail.* Either your drive is bad and dying, or it is fine and just needs reimaged. I am not saying the upgrade


Though you feel by placing your text in bold it will have more value or truth, it is important not to delink the software upgrades and the failures at this point. Too many people are experiencing it.

Youve no evidence at all that any drive failed or was marginal, only that many are apparently not compatible with the current software.

I did not say the Hard Drive failed, but that my S3 is now dead.

To determine if everyone is having a hard drive failure and the same hard drive failure and the upgrade is just exacerbating that, then youd need to be able to present failure data, and a lot of it.



greg_burns said:


> All the people having the same symptoms is simply because they are all running the same Tivo software. Apparently, sluggishness/reboots, but works fine with cable disconnected are common to all Tivos because of how the software is accessing the drive. *If your drive is going bad, you will probably see those same symptoms that everyone else does.*


I am not sure where you are going with this. The fact that so many are S3s failing in the same way at the same time, with the same software updates, does not indicate a hardware failure on its own. No one has presented and failure analysis data.

It may indicate an incompatibility, software to hardware.

Again, youd need a pile of hard drives and then youd need to test them all and draw a conclusion from that.



greg_burns said:


> IMO, the only verification and validation missed was testing how the software functions (or doesn't) on a defective drive.


Did you read the verification and validation procedures? I do not think so. So there may not have even been such plans!

So on what can we draw conclusions, about verification and validation?

All there is to look at is that so many fielded units failed the same way, at the same time, indicates that units similar to those fielded were not a large part of the testing group. Normally one tries to test multiples of all configurations.

It happens. I have written verification and validation plan that missed things but, not something so obvious.



greg_burns said:


> Drives die. That is no reason to forgo having Tivo.


S3s do not die en mass, all the same way, at the same time after a software upgrade by coincidence. And, my S3 is not that old, and not my fist Tivo and not the first time Tivo has shoved bad software down the pipe to my units.

If my drive is bad then that is sad, because it is very young! If their units and software are unreliable, then theyve taken my money for a bad product and then do not deserve my money in the future!

Such failure cost a lot of cash, more than enough reason to give up on TiVo, and as it is, and as presented, unless tiVo clean up a lot and finds some new technology, it will have some serious competitors ready to jump! I look forward to what theyll bring.


----------



## Tom White

greg_burns said:


> Buy InstantCake and reimage your current drive.
> or
> Buy a new bare drive and use WinMFS to copy current drive to it (preserving settings)
> 
> if that fails...
> 
> Buy a new bare drive and InstantCake.
> or
> Buy a preformatted drive from DVR Upgrade or Weaknees.


Sounds like a lot of spending for something that is likely a Tivo problem. I've got a hard time thinking hard drives are everyone's problems.


----------



## dennisdawg

greg_burns said:


> You should test your drive for errors using a manufacturer's disc (Hitachi Fitness Test is a good one) before buying a new one. If it is the disk, you can't blame the upgrade. But other's HDs tested fine, yet the upgrade still broke them. Go figure.


Yeah, I could test it now but, the odds are that the drive will pass and is simply not compatible with the current software. So, it I have to open it up and spend time on it, I may as well have a drive for it ready to go. They key is limited time.



greg_burns said:


> If the drive is fine you could download and reimage with InstantCake and have a working Tivo again tonight.


I will do that when I have the new drive. I have zero time right now anyway. Sunday or next week I will have some time and have a drive for it then and all that. Should be quick and if not, then it'll look good getting crushed at the recycler.


----------



## dennisdawg

Tom White said:


> Sounds like a lot of spending for something that is likely a Tivo problem. I've got a hard time thinking hard drives are everyone's problems.


It can be that some drives are simply not compatible with the software as it is, and the hard drives are not failing, it is just that they cannot function in that environment, or as in the case of mine, that environment may have caused data issues on it. If the configurations that are failing were not part of the unites tested prior to release of the software, TiVo would not know about the problem until it occurred on customer sites.

Very unfortunate but it indicated a lot about Tivos quality program. If theyre reading, that one area where they need to look.


----------



## greg_burns

dennisdawg said:


> Did you read the verification and validation procedures? I do not think so. So there may not have even been such plans!.


It was meant in jest. Who is going to test their software on a bad drive???



Tom White said:


> Sounds like a lot of spending for something that is likely a Tivo problem. I've got a hard time thinking hard drives are everyone's problems.


Reads these threads. Replace your drive your Tivo works again running the exact same 9.4 software. (Or reimage your same drive, and it works. Provided the drive is healthy.)

It is not the software. It may be the drive, or the software may have gotten corrupted on a healthy disk. But it is not the software as written.



dennisdawg said:


> Yeah, I could test it now but, the odds are that the drive will pass and is simply not compatible with the current software.


"Not compatible with the current software." How can the drive not be compatible with the software. I've heard the small cache theories, but don't buy them. It is a hard drive. It worked with every version prior to this one. What could they possibly have written in software to make it incompatible? Seriously?



dennisdawg said:


> So, it I have to open it up and spend time on it, I may as well have a drive for it ready to go. They key is limited time.


Oh I agree. It would be nice if Tivos didn't use Hard Drives. But they do. I have yet to see a manufacturer make a hard drive that will not fail.

Either you accept that and fix your Tivo (knowing it *will * eventually happen again). Or you ditch Tivo and go with your cable provider. (Who will replace your DVR for free when it eventually fails as well.)


----------



## greg_burns

dennisdawg said:


> S3s do not die en mass, all the same way, at the same time after a software upgrade by coincidence. And, my S3 is not that old, and not my fist Tivo and not the first time Tivo has shoved bad software down the pipe to my units.


Ah, but they do! Every update we see this. The whole A/B partition thing. The OS is now running on a new part of the drive that it hasn't used since the last update. blah blah blah


----------



## richsadams

The "en mass" argument arises every time an upgrade is implemented but I'll go ahead and beat the equine corpse just a little more. There are over four-million TiVo subscriptions. Granted not all are S3's or THD's but a dozen, two dozen, a hundred complaints on this forum do not constitute massive failure of this version of the software or the previous or the dozens before that IMO. Understood that not everyone finds their way here, but unless you believe that the actual TiVo employees that monitor and post here are out and out lying, it's not a wide-spread, huge numbers of TiVo's are failing issue. If you believe that they are lying to us all, well, there's nothing more to say.

Bottom line is that like all computers, some TiVo's will have problems, some will die. Over about six or seven years and as many TiVo's one of ours failed...the hard drive died. End of our story, but I can sympathize with those that are experiencing problems. As Greg points out though, many/most TiVo's are happily working away, oblivious to the massive failure theory.

That said, if the coax can be disconnected and TiVo runs fine and if the hard drive can be re-imaged or replaced and TiVo runs fine with the coax reconnected...there is a relationship between the two. My 2MB of cache in the OEM hard drive is not enough theory falls by the wayside if re-imaging an OEM drive can correct the problem. Unless of course the OEM drive fails later when it tries to write to the original bad sectors and so there goes that theory, sort of. Plus I'm not clear about how many folks have simply re-imaged their OEM drives and resolved the issue. More often than not the posts say that the OP's have replaced their hard drives with new, larger models (with larger on-board cache  ).

In any case, I agree that there is a correlation between software upgrades and the hard drive's ability to function correctly. A number of people that had the same issues with v9.3x have said that everything is fine since they received v9.4. Did software correct the problem and/or will it arise again on the next download? 

I simply keep coming back to the fact that if the hard drive is replaced using IC or WinMFS, the coax/freeze/reboot issue goes away. Arguments about how fair that is, why that is, or if someone should be hung by their thumbs aside, it works. IMHO there will be no one reason/silver bullet as to why it is what it is because there are so many variables. It is what it is. Poor horse.


----------



## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> Plus I'm not clear about how many folks have simply re-imaged their OEM drives and resolved the issue. More often than not the posts say that the OP's have replaced their hard drives with new, larger models (with larger on-board cache  ).


Here's at least one... 



MickeS said:


> I used InstantCake 9.2 on the original Series 3 drive, the one that was in the TiVo when it went into a reboot loop after being updated to version 9.4.
> 
> This time everything went fine. 9.4 installed like normal. And as mentioned, no drive errors were found by the diagnostic programs.
> 
> So at least in MY case, the update did not go wrong because of any issue with the hard drive, it went wrong for some other reason.


----------



## richsadams

dennisdawg said:


> It can be that some drives are simply not compatible with the software as it is, and the hard drives are not failing, it is just that they cannot function in that environment, or as in the case of mine, that environment may have caused data issues on it. <snip>


 Agreed! That is an argument I made many pages ago. Thanks for supporting my "Tiny cache" theory.  However, based on a large number of responses all of the TiVo's have the exact same WD drive right down to the extended model number. So why then do some fail and most others run w/o any problems on the exact same O/S version? Other factors? I'd think so, but haven't run into anyone with proof as such.

Okay, I'll move aside to enjoy the fireworks now.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> Here's at least one...


Oh, that's right. Point taken. :up: I just wonder if things will go south once again if/when bad sectors are encountered, if that's what caused the problem in the first place.


----------



## dennisdawg

greg_burns said:


> It was meant in jest. Who is going to test their software on a bad drive???


I never said the drives were bad but rather that one of the hardware configurations, the one that is failing, was likely not tested and now it is showing up.



greg_burns said:


> Reads these threads. Replace your drive your Tivo works again running the exact same 9.4 software. (Or reimage your same drive, and it works. Provided the drive is healthy.)


It is not exactly the same because the hardware has changed. The way the software deals with that is therefore different.



greg_burns said:


> It is not the software. It may be the drive, or the software may have gotten corrupted on a healthy disk. But it is not the software as written.


Incorrect assumption. It is easy to write software that causes problems for itself on specific hardware while functioning fine other hardware that seems similar.



greg_burns said:


> "Not compatible with the current software." How can the drive not be compatible with the software. I've heard the small cache theories, but don't buy them. It is a hard drive.


Read the threads about external drives, where some work and some are problematic. One example. Not all drives are the same.



greg_burns said:


> It worked with every version prior to this one. What could they possibly have written in software to make it incompatible? Seriously?


Yes, in fact in the business in which I work it is why we control the PC that runs the software, selling it and the software together, software preinstalled (kinda like how TiVo does it but our PCs control laboratory instruments). Whenever anything changes with the vendor PC, we validate again. When we change the software, we test on the previous hardware versions if it will be offered on them.



greg_burns said:


> Oh I agree. It would be nice if Tivos didn't use Hard Drives. But they do. I have yet to see a manufacturer make a hard drive that will not fail.


In ever said anything about building them without Hard Drives and no one has proven that the S3s that have failed, have bad hard drives.

There is a compatibility issue, obviously, but what that is has not been proven here.



greg_burns said:


> Either you accept that and fix your Tivo (knowing it *will * eventually happen again). Or you ditch Tivo and go with your cable provider. (Who will replace your DVR for free when it eventually fails as well.)


Or another choice as it becomes available or maybe already is. Television is not so important to us that were that emotionally invested to where there are only the two choices youve presented.

Spending money like this on TiVo is an issue.


----------



## dennisdawg

richsadams said:


> The "en mass" argument arises every time an upgrade is implemented but I'll go ahead and beat the equine corpse just a little more. There are
> over four-million TiVo subscriptions. Granted not all are S3's or THD's but a dozen, two dozen, a hundred complaints on this forum do not constitute massive failure of this


If all 4 million users were on this forum, then 100 complaints would mean little statistically but to those 100 it would matter a lot!

But the 4 million are not here. How many are and are not on here, and how many are failing I do not know, but that problem is repeating in that sample is significant.



richsadams said:


> version of the software or the previous or the dozens before that IMO. Understood that not everyone finds their way here, but unless you believe that the actual TiVo employees that monitor and post here are out and out lying, it's not a wide-spread, huge numbers of TiVo's are failing issue. If you believe that they are lying to us all, well, there's nothing more to say.


I do not know if anyone it lying or not. If it is widespread would they report that here?



richsadams said:


> Bottom line is that like all computers, some TiVo's will have problems, some will die.
> Over about six or seven years and as many TiVo's one of ours failed...the hard drive died.


Over the time I have used my TiVos, each has broken. This one the soonest after purchase. Each was fixed (Navy trained in electronics, software developer by trade no problem) or replaced. But it is too much time and money to spend on TV, dealing with TiVo.



richsadams said:


> That said, if the coax can be disconnected and TiVo runs fine and if the hard drive can be re-imaged or replaced and TiVo runs fine with the coax reconnected...there is a relationship between the two. My 2MB of cache in the OEM hard drive is not enough theory falls by the wayside if re-imaging an OEM drive can correct the problem. Unless


I do not know. Testing over all has not been done or the data not presented by those that tested.

For me, I am hedging the bet by getting a new drive. I do not have time to try all the other options and see if they work.



richsadams said:


> In any case, I agree that there is a correlation between software upgrades and the hard drive's ability to function correctly. A number of people that had the same issues with v9.3x have said that everything is fine since they received v9.4. Did software correct the problem and/or will it arise again on the next download?


I do not know. I do not know how long or what the true failure mode is. TiVo might now. I think testing properly would have yielded the information prior to release.



richsadams said:


> I simply keep coming back to the fact that if the hard drive is replaced using IC or WinMFS, the coax/freeze/reboot issue goes away. Arguments about how fair that is, why that is, or if someone should be hung by their thumbs aside, it works. IMHO there will be no one reason/silver bullet as to why it is what it is because there are so many variables. It is what it is. Poor horse.


We as customers shouldnt need to even think about it. TiVo should and let customers know what is going on. They also should not shove these upgrades out on to equipment they do not own, and in the process ruin it.


----------



## richsadams

Well, not having the time to cut and paste innumerable quotes I'll just add that these kinds of arguments and complaints have been posted before, many times, year after year. Right, wrong or otherwise they may help, they may not, I have no idea. That they continue to appear leads me to believe that they might not. Arguing about things may make some folks feel better, but I'm not so sure it does much more than that.

So it boils down to the old "part of the problem" or "part of the solution". A number of people here attempt to provide assistance to those that are having trouble...often when they themselves aren't. Hopefully that's actually helpful and that some owners have picked up a few pointers and that their TiVo's are back in service sooner than later. 

'Nuff said and best of luck! :up:


----------



## greg_burns

I am not sure where you are going. All the original S3s still run the exact same model WD drive. The hardware has not changed. 

They are not writing device drivers for harddrives AFAIK. They are writing C programs that run inside of the Linux OS. You shouldn't need to worry about the harddrive inside.



dennisdawg said:


> In ever said anything about building them without Hard Drives and no one has proven that the S3s that have failed, have bad hard drives.


Sure they have. They tested their drives. Takes about 10 minutes to do.


----------



## JimWall

What would really help clear up diagnosing whether a problem is a hard drive issue to for TIVO to have a HD stats screen where it keeps CRC stats reported by the SATA device driver. It could provide running total, % CRC fixed and not fixed to aid determining if the issues are HD related.
Even better would be a menu option to reimage itself and fix/map bad the problem sectors. Hire Gibson (spinrite) to do the code.
It may take a day or more for people with 2 TB space but would be worth it.


----------



## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> I am not sure where you are going. All the original S3s still run the exact same model WD drive. The hardware has not changed.
> They are not writing device drivers for harddrives AFAIK. They are writing C programs that run inside of the Linux OS. You shouldn't need to worry about the harddrive inside.


Correct. As you and I have both pointed out, the OEM hard drives are indeed all the same. And I think you'd agree that the software that controls I/O and other demands on the system does change. So if the hardware is static and the software changes and some boxes fail while most don't, then the uncontrollable variable is the signal input and subsequent output (or lack thereof).

The massive (and I don't use that term lightly  ) cable card issues and eventual resolution TiVo experienced with the initial launch of the THD last year is evidence that the software and third party hardware directly affects TiVo's ability to deal with I/O data. They fixed the problems with a software revision. In addition some folks are only having problems with HD. If they stick with SD programming things are fine. Again, increased data I/O seems to be causing some TiVo's to lose it. Replacing the HDD resolves it.

I'm falling on the side of the theory/argument that various versions of the software are disabling some boxes because of the demands; that it comes down to a signal issue (CC's or OTA). That's why I keep coming back to the OEM drive minuscule cache concept because AFAIK that's the only effective change being made when an OEM HDD is replaced with a newer one (with more cache) which more often than not cures the coax/freeze/reboot issue with v9.3x and v9.4.

That's not to say that hard drives aren't failing and that it materializes more often after a software upgrade...there's no arguing that. But I just don't believe that _all_ of the complaints are due to HDD failure.

As far as testing I don't envy TiVo's R&D dept. Trying to recreate every configuration known to man would be close to impossible. Not only are there impossible to calculate numbers of in-house A/V configurations cabling and equipment manufacturers, a quick look at the AVS forum clearly shows that the broadcast and cable industry is dependent on an enormous variety of equipment, both new and ancient, to deliver a signals to the wall outlet. I think TiVo probably does its level best to meet a goal of 100% perfection, but for anyone that's replaced their A/V set-up and/or moved from one city to another, the differences in what happens outside of the TiVo box (and their control) can be mind boggling.

Again, speculation and WAG's, but the only things that makes sense to me.


----------



## richsadams

JimWall said:


> What would really help clear up diagnosing whether a problem is a hard drive issue to for TIVO to have a HD stats screen where it keeps CRC stats reported by the SATA device driver. It could provide running total, % CRC fixed and not fixed to aid determining if the issues are HD related.
> Even better would be a menu option to reimage itself and fix/map bad the problem sectors. Hire Gibson (spinrite) to do the code.
> It may take a day or more for people with 2 TB space but would be worth it.


I like it! :up:


----------



## Clentz

richsadams said:


> I like it! :up:


I ran Spinrite on my 1TB CinemaStar drive before I installed it external. I later moved it internal (S3). So far OK Note: I run Spinrite on everything I want reliability from.
Carl


----------



## dennisdawg

greg_burns said:


> I am not sure where you are going. All the original S3s still run the exact same model WD drive. The hardware has not changed.


Nothing is exactly the same. One would need the hard drives (and like the whole unit) to determine what is failing, what is different and why. I do not think youve access to that, nor do I. however, that similar failures are occurring after a software change indicates a lot, about the failure and the quality plan at Tivo.

Seldom is it as simple. There are times when weve tested (and we do a a lot of that) and found nothing wrong, but once fielded, the software fails in what seems like a random distribution, but in the same mode. Keep in mind that we, like TiVo sell the PC fully loaded with the software and then upgrade from time to time, so to the layman it would seem like the hardware is all exactly the same with the exact same OS and software.

Every time we missed something in testing, the hardware had changed in some way, or the OS and for all of those wed made an error by not taking it into account, either by ignorance or bad luck.

Such occurrences are very, very, very, rare in our business. They have to be. But when they occur, we jump, we have to. We do slow roll outs to test, test and test, over and over to avoid problems.

And our updates are optional and can be rolled back for most of the instruments.



greg_burns said:


> They are not writing device drivers for harddrives AFAIK. They are writing C programs that run inside of the Linux OS. You shouldn't need to worry about the harddrive inside.


Actually you ("you" as in Developers) do, differences in hardware of any kind can impact software and both impact the OS, and each other. It is not as simple as youd like it to be (based on how youre presenting).



greg_burns said:


> Sure they have. They tested their drives. Takes about 10 minutes to do.


That is not true. To test software on a specific platform takes considerable time and attention to detail. To track and test all the variations adds even more. In fact there are whole sections of development that are devoted to testing and targeting it correctly.


----------



## greg_burns

dennisdawg said:


> ...and no one has proven that the S3s that have failed, have bad hard drives.





dennisdawg said:


> That is not true. To test software on a specific platform takes considerable time and attention to detail. To track and test all the variations adds even more. In fact there are whole sections of development that are devoted to testing and targeting it correctly.


I was commenting on your statement that nobody has proved the problem was a failed drive. I was trying to say that LOTS of people with problems have tested their drives and, yes, found them to have bad sectors. My comment was not regarding testing the Tivo software. Just their own personal drives.

This whole discussion about validation and testing the hardware and Tivo software would be moot *if* you discover your drive is defective. All drives fail.


----------



## dennisdawg

richsadams said:


> As you and I have both pointed out, the OEM hard drives are indeed all the same. And I think you'd agree that the software that controls I/O and other demands on the system does change. So if the hardware is static and the software changes and some boxes fail while most don't, then the uncontrollable variable is the signal input and subsequent output (or lack thereof).


I think it is an assumption that the hardware is static. Those assumptions is where things can go wrong in investigations.

The drives themselves (and the whole unit really) would need to be carefully examined, as would documentation from the vendor.

As to the sameness of hardware, let me offer this . . .If I sit you down to make 100 milkshakes with all the same ice-cream and milk, eggs and sugar, and everything, no matter how hard you tired, all 100 would have subtle (and not so subtle) differences. The tolerances for each ingredient and your mixing of them, would all impact the resultant shakes. For example, the ice-cream vendor might have run out of vanilla and had to buy some from a different vendor causing a slight change, carton to carton in the ice-cream . . . you can see where that is going . . . and it is just an example, not a disciption of what is going on here . . . that we really do not know.

That same is true in electronics. Sometimes one knows of these changes, sometimes not, but in most cases with proper audits, testing and documentation, the risk and occurrence of such issues can be minimized, but vigilance is key.

In that TiVo, might not be aware of the change, and would be exonerated in the testing end  they simply didnt know, but that is speculation. That issues come up somewhat often, indicates a quality issue, meaning their quality system (how they ensure quality) is likely flawed.



richsadams said:


> I'm falling on the side of the theory/argument that various versions of the software are disabling some boxes because of the demands; that it comes down to a signal issue (CC's or OTA). That's why I keep coming back to the OEM drive minuscule cache concept because AFAIK that's the only effective change being made when an OEM HDD is replaced with a newer one (with more cache) which more often than not cures the coax/freeze/reboot issue with v9.3x and v9.4.


One of the possibilities to be sure but there are a lot of possibilities.



richsadams said:


> That's not to say that hard drives aren't failing and that it materializes more often after a software upgrade...there's no arguing that. But I just don't believe that _all_ of the complaints are due to HDD failure.


I to have doubts that most (is any) are hardware failures (that are presenting this same failure mode as in this thread). To me, it looks like a compatibility issue and that would be proven with data to which we as customers do not have access or perhaps the time to gather.



richsadams said:


> As far as testing I don't envy TiVo's R&D dept. Trying to recreate every configuration known to man would be close to impossible. Not only are there impossible to


It is their job. They get paid for it.

For the people out here having to deal with their error(s), there is no real compensation, and in fact many have sto spend a considerable sum to get back to when the box is useful, so that can continue to pa TiVo to use it.

I do not feel sort for them at all.

And, I do not see where they feel sorry for me, the guy who comes home to find TiVo dying after their update.


----------



## dennisdawg

greg_burns said:


> I was commenting on your statement that nobody has proved the problem was a failed drive. I was trying to say that LOTS of people with problems have tested their drives and, yes, found them to have bad sectors. My comment was not regarding testing the Tivo software. Just their own personal drives.


Lots is not a statistical value, and therefore is not the kind of data on which one can make a conclusion.

Testing a hard drive outside the overall environment in which it is to function does not ensure it can function in that environment.

Bad example again. if I test your ability to swim in a pool and you prove you can swim, it does not mean if I bring you to the ocean, youll not drown whilst swimming. When you do, and I look at other swimmers I have in the pool, I might consider changing how I test them before I bring them to the ocean.

Again, an example simple used to make a point.



greg_burns said:


> This whole discussion about validation and testing the hardware and Tivo software would be moot *if* you discover your drive is defective. All drives fail.


Actually you are incorrect. First, my one drive, regardless of it could not pass a diagnostic test today, is not indicative of all hard drives in all S3 Tivos that have where the S3 has failed in this way. If is were to fail the check, it not does it prove that the failure today was the problem that caused the original issue with the unit (it only might have). One just does not know. One needs more data. One needs many S3s to test.

Also, if you have a population of units, and some of them fail in the same way at about the same time, then that opens the door to having not tested or been vigilant enough in auditing and documentation to have found that problem before it was released. That is a problem in itself!

You see, when failures occur, it is not just an effort to correct them, but also, in a proper development process, one where the quality system is examined to determine how the problem slipped out the door. Then corrections are made to ensure better quality for the customer.


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## Carlos_E

Well, I'm not sure what happened or what change but in frustration I left my S3 unplugged for the past 2 days because it wasn't working. I plugged it in this afternoon for one last try and it's working fine. No drop outs, no lag, no rebooting. I'll see how it works for the next few days before I order a new drive. *Fingers crossed!*


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## richsadams

Clentz said:


> I ran Spinrite on my 1TB CinemaStar drive before I installed it external. I later moved it internal (S3). So far OK Note: I run Spinrite on everything I want reliability from.
> Carl


Always sound advice! :up:


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## Tom White

dennisdawg - 

I just want to take a moment to thank you for your input in this thread.

You seem quite open to the idea that the cause of the problems could be, beyond what others will accept as possible. I've stated before that I just can't fathom all these problems being failed hard drives, and I still hold to that.

Your comparison to other home electronics is dead on. A person could buy a Denon or Onkyo receiver, and deciding that they really liked it, go buy another (of the same model) for a relative. Does being the same model mean that every small part inside the receiver is the same? No. Perhaps the supplier of the smallest resistor has changed where they buy those resistors. They may look the same, and be within the same specs, but are different. One may have greater reliability than the other over a period of time.

In all truth, that small change may make no noticable difference in the receivers. The point being, while they appear to be identical twins, they are not.

Let me add that a full 15% of those responding to the "did your S3 quit working after the 9.4 update" (or whatever the proper title is) thread say that this did happen to them. Regardless of the cause, that is far too high a failure rate.

Some would say that a poll such as this is not valid, that these are people who sought out this forum because of the problem they were having. That is simply not true. There are long time Tivo fans in that thread, as well. Much like a sports forum, many people come here because they are a fan, not just because they have a problem with the way their "team" is playing.

Anyway, thanks once again for your input.

Tom


----------



## richsadams

Carlos_E said:


> Well, I'm not sure what happened or what change but in frustration I left my S3 unplugged for the past 2 days because it wasn't working. I plugged it in this afternoon for one last try and it's working fine. No drop outs, no lag, no rebooting. I'll see how it works for the next few days before I order a new drive. *Fingers crossed!*


Interesting. Can you clarify "Wasn't working"? TIA.


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## richsadams

I guess we can all go around and around about the why TiVo freezes, reboots, etc. when the coax is connected but when it's disconnected things are fine and why it happens to some after an upgrade but not to others or most. However I still come back to the fact that once the hard drive is replaced (or in at least one case the OEM drive is re-imaged) TiVo works normally again. I still don't think it's all because of failed hard drives.

BTW, I went back a ways and found the same issue popping up around the introduction of v8.1 so it's been more than a year that this phenomenon has presented. This thread from April '07 is one example. IIRC there have been at least four "revisions" and upgrades since then but the problem persists for some. Based on posts here it seems to have peaked with v9.3x, but there are still some having issues after v9.4 was introduced. It's very frustrating no matter what the cause or who or what is to blame.


----------



## Tom White

richsadams said:


> I guess we can all go around and around about the why TiVo freezes, reboots, etc. when the coax is connected but when it's disconnected things are fine and why it happens to some after an upgrade but not to others or most. However I still come back to the fact that once the hard drive is replaced (or in at least one case the OEM drive is re-imaged) TiVo works normally again. I still don't think it's all because of failed hard drives.
> 
> BTW, I went back a ways and found the same issue popping up around the introduction of v8.1 so it's been more than a year that this phenomenon has presented. This thread from April '07 is one example. IIRC there have been at least four "revisions" and upgrades since then but the problem persists for some. Based on posts here it seems to have peaked with v9.3x, but there are still some having issues after v9.4 was introduced. It's very frustrating no matter what the cause or who or what is to blame.


Could complications to the software/hardware, as Tivo has added features, be partially to blame? I never use the download capabilities of Tivo, but I have to think the added capabilities has made life more complex for these things.

I would pay a nice price for a Tivo HD that just allowed me to record TV programs (HD & SD), and had an on screen TV guide, and did nothing else, if it resulted in a more stable unit. Sort of a "back-to-the-basics" original purpose sort of box.

Frankly, if one of the DVD recorders (with a hard drive) had an on screen TV guide, I'd buy one. Unfortunately, I don't think there is one.


----------



## richsadams

Tom White said:


> Could complications to the software/hardware, as Tivo has added features, be partially to blame? I never use the download capabilities of Tivo, but I have to think the added capabilities has made life more complex for these things.


IMO? Absolutely. More system demand equals more fail points to my thinking. Even if those features are not being accessed at the time, there's simply more code to deal with and more chances something will not work properly.

Could more than 2MB of HDD cache be the key to resolving things? Okay, okay, I'll give it a rest.


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## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> Based on posts here it seems to have peaked with v9.3x, but there are still some having issues after v9.4 was introduced. It's very frustrating no matter what the cause or who or what is to blame.


My theory... very few were willing to pay the $700 for an S3. When the TivoHD came out sales skyrocketed. With the increase in TivoHD users naturally comes an increase of forum traffic of people having problems.


----------



## Tom White

greg_burns said:


> My theory... very few were willing to pay the $700 for an S3. When the TivoHD came out sales skyrocketed. *With the increase in TivoHD users naturally comes an increase of forum traffic of people having problems.*


Yes, but 15% (per the thread I referred to earlier) is quite a large number. That is almost 1 out of 6. Think about if a car company released a model that 1 out of 6 failed to run on a regular basis. That model car would be gone from the marketplace quickly. Kind of like getting a Yugo, when you thought you were getting a ____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite car).

Tivo should not be as worried about the people reporting problems here, as they they should worry about the "silent complainer". Those who have a bad experience, and instead of telling Tivo (or posting here), they simply tell all their friends. Friends who might have otherwise become Tivo customers.


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## richsadams

greg_burns said:


> My theory... very few were willing to pay the $700 for an S3. When the TivoHD came out sales skyrocketed. With the increase in TivoHD users naturally comes an increase of forum traffic of people having problems.


True enough. But from what I see on the various threads, the "complaints" since v9.4 was introduced are quite a bit less than when v9.3x hit the streets so that's a step in the right direction IMHO.

BTW...congrats on hitting 6,000 posts!   Over the years your input has been very positive and almost always helpful to a lot of people including me...much appreciated.


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## greg_burns

richsadams said:


> True enough. But from what I see on the various threads, the "complaints" since v9.4 are quite a bit less than when v9.3x was introduced so that's a step in the right direction IMHO.


Yeah, but 9.4 fixed a known issue (video freeze, with continued audio) with the TivoHDs that 9.3 introduced. There was a lot of posts because of that. This thread, on the other hand, is just about lock-up/reboots on either TivoHD or S3.



richsadams said:


> BTW...congrats on hitting 6,000 posts!   Over the years your input has been very positive and almost always helpful to a lot of people including me...much appreciated.


 Time for me to get a life!


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## lumper

what ever....either tivo sends us all boxes that work or they go down. People buy a tv and it works flawlessly for ten plus years. Nobody buys a polaroid LCD tv they are junk. Tivo is sending me a fifth s3 - you guys wast your time trying to figure it out - I am a level two tech's worst nightmare. I call tech support and don't hang up until the problem is fixed or a new box is on the way. TIVO GETTING IN BED WITH CABLE WAS A HUGE MISTAKE. My s2 worked flawlessly for years. Im glad I don't own stock. The worst part is- I love Tivo- so I pray they get their act together.


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## matrix1977

I'm experiencing the same problems. Do you think I would be better off just upgrading the HD? Has that fixed the problem for most of you?


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## alp44

jscozz said:


> Well... I think jumping to the conclusion that it is a hardware problem is just an easy way for a Tivo support tech to get rid of the issue. I don't think it is any kind of hardware failure. I think it is clearly a software problem. And I am VERY disappointed that after spending over $600 plus subscription I am now hit with this kind of problem.
> 
> More details about my lock up:
> 1) The Tivo reboots itself frequently. Getting all the way to the Tivo menu with the background animating (choppy) and no menu appears.
> 2) An the occasion when it does reboot successfully, video has frequent sound drops outs and pixelation.
> 
> **** Removing 1 of the two cable cards does not change anything (either one). Removing BOTH cable cards completely fixes the problem! No more reboots. Perfect playback. External eSata still connected and running fine! Of course, I do not get certain channels now and no HD... but the Tivo works FINE!
> 
> So... anyone else have similar issues where just removing the cable cards (and leaving the cable connected) solved the problem?
> 
> If I call Tivo support will they have any info for me or will they want me to send it back and ship me a new one (losing TONS of shows on my external 750GB drive that my wife and I have not watched yet).


This is going to seem weird, and I don't know if the info will help, but when I got my DiVo (TimeWarners Dual Tuner HD DVR) I had many problems with their boxes. I replaced it 3 times, and finally was told by a tech that TW has been having many problems with these new boxes since the Fed Gov is requiring them to use cable cards in their own boxes! You won't see then, but they are there. Since I also have a Series3 Tivo w/a HD Extender, I;m wondering if the cablecard technology is creating problems for "all" dvrs. That's how cable companies are able to use dual tuners, the same way Tivo's DT Boxes. Maybe that is something to look at.

Good luck!
a


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## Attack

matrix1977 said:


> I'm experiencing the same problems. Do you think I would be better off just upgrading the HD? Has that fixed the problem for most of you?


It fixed the issue for me. I bought a 750GB Seagate Barracuda ES.2 ST3750330NS and used WinMFS 9.2 to get the TiVo software copied to the new drive.


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## JimWall

matrix1977 said:


> I'm experiencing the same problems. Do you think I would be better off just upgrading the HD? Has that fixed the problem for most of you?


My problems went away with new hard drive. Doing away with HD recording dramatically reduces the work the hard drive has to do. Tivo is always recording two shows and HD shows require far more I/O. I do think TIVO should handle issues with HD better and provide a screen showing I/O errors and even successfull I/Os that were corrected using the CRC checksum.


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## Generic

I probably should have done this along time ago but I would either forget or be lazy about posting. With my S3 getting the 9.4 update, it fixed the freezing/rebooting problems. It now works perfectly. I didn't want to whine about it not working and then not say anything when it was working correctly.


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## richsadams

Generic said:


> I probably should have done this along time ago but I would either forget or be lazy about posting. With my S3 getting the 9.4 update, it fixed the freezing/rebooting problems. It now works perfectly. I didn't want to whine about it not working and then not say anything when it was working correctly.


Great news and thanks for the post! :up:


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## richsadams

JimWall said:


> I do think TIVO should handle issues with HD better and provide a screen showing I/O errors and even successfull I/Os that were corrected using the CRC checksum.


+1 :up:


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## KLR650Rider

Well, I think Ive given up on Tivo fixing my Series 3 HD. I just noticed its been about three months since I first started having problems. Theyve replaced my system a few times and the new one works for a couple of days on version 8.x until 9.3 gets pushed out. 

The last time I spoke with support they mentioned that they are aware of the problem and are working on a fix. The tech told me that 9.4 was the summer upgrade and wasnt supposed to fix the freezes, hangs and reboots.

The tech also said she would request that I be put on the beta list to test the patch but advised against it since the beta patch may make things worse. I told her politely that my machine is unusable as is so it couldnt get any worse. 

I missed taping the Olympics and I dont plan on missing any of the new TV shows coming out so Im getting rid of my Tivo and switching to Cox DVR. 

Good luck to the rest of you and I hope you get your systems working again.


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## Kylenol

When I'm transferring shows sometimes, it automatically reboots and the shows say "This transfer is not making progress" and it becomes "Unavailable". It reboots it self many times but it doesn't get past the "Starting Up..." phase. I tried re-plugging and unplugging My DVR Expander but I still get the same results. The only solution that I found was to divorce it from TiVO and then marry it back; but that results in a loss of many of my programs. Is there any that can help me?


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## Kurthi

I have been reading this thread and here is my problem.

My S3 had been having pixelation problems on the non HD channels for the last 6 months. I didn't really care since I watched HD only. With the election coming up and my wife wanting to see shows on USA which we have no HD for, the pixelation now beacme a HUGE issue. Also I began to see more pixelation and volume drops on the HD channels in recent weeks.

I had Comcast do a truck roll to replace the CC. This clueless tech messed with my S3 for an hour before I got home to tell him what he needed to do.
About 2 hours after he left and replaced both CC, my S3 started the reboots, non response to commands, and slow menu responses that others in here have had.

I have 9.4 software, but the tivo works fine when I have only CC1 installed. Putting CC 2 in starts all the above issues.

Does this seem to point to a bad Hard Drive, a bad CC, or a bad tuner. I am having Comcast out again this Wednesday to replace the cards again. I bought this S3 on day 1 of the inital release, and after the shipping fiasco with that purchase, and very leary of dealing with TiVo shipping and repair. I would go with a new Hard Drive, but am afraid of what I may do to further harm this unit.

I am at a loss as to what to do. any suggestions?


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## ren_z

I just got off the phone with CS. All the above symptoms (slow response, no response, blank menus, reboots, etc.) They told me I have a "hardware failure" but couldn't tell me what had failed. For $150 they offered to replace my S3. Before I shell out the bux, I'm going to try removing the second cable card and will see if this helps at all.


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## cogx

My S3 was ordered the first day it was available to order and has worked great since the day I hooked it up. All the updates installed properly and I had never had lockup problems or reboots, version 9.4 has been working as expected. My indoor (powered) antenna has been pulling in my 5 OTA HD channels perfectly from the same position for two years and I have analog cable (*no* cable cards). 
DVR life was all good, for two years, no complaints. 

Well... starting this past Thursday, things started to get really sluggish. Two OTA HD channels were recording and I was watching one of them and I got through it, but one time when I wanted to rewind a little bit, it sort of locked up for about 4 seconds. That was odd. Well, I watched a couple other recorded shows after that and it seemed ok.

Unfortunately, the next day, well, everything went downhill. The same problems people talk about all over this site, I basically couldn't get the TiVo to work properly, until I disconnected my antenna and cable inputs. I've tried the kickstart 57 a few times, but it hasn't helped. I ran the kickstart 54 tests and it never came back with any HDD failure codes; all tests pass. 

With cable TV disconnected, I've found that two 1080i OTA channels tuned on both tuners will lock it up. Sometimes I've been able to have a 720p channel and 1080i channel work at the same time, but eventually it will lock things up.

Having been in IT support for over ten years, my inclination is the HDD is bad, despite what the kickstart 54 tests are saying. However, my testing sure makes it seem like there is a problem with one or both of the tuners. Even when I put the S3 into standby, with the OTA and cable cables connected, I'm able to connect to the S3 and download all of the recorded shows to my PC. So, it *only* locks up when the tuners are active. 

Temperature has never been a problem, it has always said the internal temp has been normal and again I have not changed anything about my configuration in two years.

So, I guess I call in and pay $150 to get a refurb unit? Something just doesn't smell right about this simply being a HDD problem. I downloaded all my content to my PC yesterday and this morning I deleted all shows and cleared out all delete programs, so I started fresh this morning for football, but once again, trying to record both the CBS and Fox games in HD has locked my S3 up.


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## greg_burns

cogx said:


> Having been in IT support for over ten years, my inclination is the HDD is bad, despite what the kickstart 54 tests are saying.


Hook your drive up to a PC and run the Western Digital or Hitachi diagnsotics on it. That may reveal a problem the KS are not.


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## cogx

greg_burns said:


> Hook your drive up to a PC and run the Western Digital or Hitachi diagnsotics on it. That may reveal a problem the KS are not.


So, just to be sure, the $150 reburb replacement is valid, even if I open up my S3 and mess around with the drive?


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## richsadams

cogx said:


> So, just to be sure, the $150 reburb replacement is valid, even if I open up my S3 and mess around with the drive?


Well...yes and no. Your unit is past it's normal parts and labor warranty. TiVo is replacing it with a refurb for $149 based on your complaint. Telling them that you opened it up, pulled the drive and tested it will not sit well with them and may cause them to cancel the offer. They have no way of knowing that you opened it up unless you leave some sort of evidence...so don't eat crackers while the cover is off. 

It does indeed sound like a HDD issue. However if you're comfortable with opening your TiVo, doing an R&R of the HDD to test it and all, if it were me I'd simply replace the drive. You could upgrade to a 1TB HDD, use winMFS to image it or buy Instant Cake for $20 and probably still be ahead (and have a LOT more recording space).

Again, it does sound like a HDD problem, but before doing anything else I would contact your cableco and have them check your signal. It's remotely possible that something has gone wrong with your cable cards or the incoming signal, etc.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## JimWall

I agree the prime suspect is the HDD. 
Passing diagnostics in TIVO or in a PC don't seem to be relavent. You can replace HDD and if problem is not gone then return HDD. I had problems with a HDD which passed all kinds of diagnostics but problems went away with new HDD. I recently reformatted the bad HDD and now using it in a newer TIVO with no problems. 
If HDD passes all tests ten I go back the theory that TIVO device driver software or HDD detects excessive CRC errors and deliberately slows down the SATA speed thinking that is the issue but then it is too slow for video. Don't believe me? Windows Server has a patch for this exact behavior. With TIVO reformatting the good drive gets the SATA interface back up to normal speed for a particular drive. Remember when tuner is dispaying a LIVE show it is really recording the show to the HDD and you are viewing the show from the HDD buffer.


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## AdmiralTivo

I had the same issues with locking up, reboots, etc. Removing the cable input stopped the reboot cycle, and keeping both tuners on SD channels kept the system going for a little while anyway. Eventually my S3 would reboot even when tuned onto an SD channel.

I took the plunge and replaced the HD with a Seagate DB35 500Gb drive, and everything's been fine since.


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## richsadams

JimWall said:


> I go back the theory that TIVO device driver software or HDD detects excessive CRC errors and deliberately slows down the SATA speed thinking that is the issue but then it is too slow for video.


Now that's an interesting and plausible theory. I've always leaned toward I/O error processing or simple data overload being an issue and began to blame it on the miniscule 2MB's of cache TiVo's OEM drives employ. Replacing the HDD with a newer model that has 8+MB's of cache seemed to cure the problem. Since it doesn't seem to be a software issue (everyone is using the same version) I'm still coming down on the side of a hard drive problem. I'm not a hard drive guru so I'm wondering (with all things being equal) does the firmware adjust for CRC or any other errors? If so, how would we explain why TiVo replacements work using the same HDD model (based on posts by some that have popped open their replacements)?


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## cogx

Sunday night I re-ran the kickstart 54 tests again and this time the "extended test" failed at 55 minutes (it is suppose to run for 90 minutes), with a "Fail (read element)". I then let it run the "overnight test: seek/read, random locations", well, overnight, and when I checked it Monday morning, it also said "Test Failed: I/O error reading from disk".
So, it passes the shorter tests, but not the extended or overnight tests.

It also can't even record analog cable now either, so it definitely went from working perfectly as of Thursday early evening and then by Monday evening I just had to unplug it, as it rebooted itself out of the blue again and is now finally unusable.

Now, I started thinking about the DTV transition, as I do know a few people who don't have cable or sat, and what they are going to do for recording, now that the old VCR is really a dead technology (although if they buy the DTVPal model like I tell them, they can at least match-up their recordings and their VCRs should still work). 
Don't get me wrong, I love TiVo, even despite the crazy amount of money I spent on an S3 that only worked for 2 years and now has died on me, but the hardware and subscription costs are not for everyone's (most people's) budget. HDDs are just one of those components that CE companies clearly should want to avoid putting in their products. I would hope that some future year that TiVo will be using SSD *AND* they really need to make a way for it to be trivial for the customer to replace the drive and have it format and re-load the software to the new drive, like a PS3 or a NMT. We should be able to swap in drives at any time, without concern over warranties and such.


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## richsadams

cogx said:


> Sunday night I re-ran the kickstart 54 tests again and this time the "extended test" failed at 55 minutes <snip>


Sorry to hear that your hard drive failed. Agreed that two years is too short for what some of us "early adopters" paid for Series3's and that we should be able to easily swap drives out. The very same could be said for computers. Heck my iMac makes it close to impossible to replace the hard drive so TiVo's are a cake walk by comparison.

But hard drive failure is part and parcel of the computer age. With TiVo running and writing data (high volumes when it comes to HD) 24/7 it doesn't surprise me too much when a drive fails. Fortunately some companies like Seagate are now warranting their drives for five years. It doesn't ease the pain of having to replace them, but it's better than the more common one-year warranty a lot of them have.

In any case, TiVo isn't for everyone and like computers (because that's what they are) they will have problems. Hope you'll stay in the fold, but understood if you don't...life's too short to worry about some things.  Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## cliffdunaway

richsadams said:


> But hard drive failure is part and parcel of the computer age.


Rich, I don't know if this has been addressed before - I wonder how many of the dead/dying Tivos were protected by a good UPS? Maybe I have been lucky, but since my first PC in 1985 and my first Tivo in 2000, I have never had a hard drive failure. That includes at least 10 PCs and 4 Tivos. And they have all been plugged into a decent UPS. And on the Tivo, the coax is also filtered.

The only hardware problem I ever had was a Series 1 Tivo modem failure, which was a well-known issue.

Just curious. Like I said, maybe I have been lucky.


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## richsadams

cliffdunaway said:


> Rich, I don't know if this has been addressed before - I wonder how many of the dead/dying Tivos were protected by a good UPS? Maybe I have been lucky, but since my first PC in 1985 and my first Tivo in 2000, I have never had a hard drive failure. That includes at least 10 PCs and 4 Tivos. And they have all been plugged into a decent UPS. And on the Tivo, the coax is also filtered.
> 
> The only hardware problem I ever had was a Series 1 Tivo modem failure, which was a well-known issue.
> 
> Just curious. Like I said, maybe I have been lucky.


The subject of UPS/battery backups comes up now and then, but probably not often enough. We're almost in the same boat. Of the seven or eight TiVo's I've had in as many years, only one (an early Series2) suffered from hard drive failure.

A UPS is an absolute must. That cannot be emphasized enough. Nothing will do more damage to a hard drive than a nasty power spike. And you're right...that may have caused a number of hard drive failures without the owner's even being aware of it. A typical surge protector isn't sensitive enough to protect computer equipment.

We have a UPS for every TiVo, computer, etc. I've been using this APC model UPS on each TiVo for quite a while now with zero problems.

Good advice for anyone...if you don't have a UPS for your TiVo...get one! :up:


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## cogx

Not to get too far off topic, but in my division there are two of us that support a few servers and around 475 Windows PCs (and a handful of Macs). We just looked it up and we've had to replace 9 hard drives thus far in 2008 (with 3 of those just in the past two months). We can't afford to buy a UPS for all of these, but the servers obviously have them and some of PCs do. I can say that we have shaky power in two of our buildings and we've had several power supplies and even three motherboards go bad, but the hard drives in those computers were not the ones that failed (yet). I've also had hard drives go bad in the systems with a UPS, workstations or servers. In other words, we've never seen any correlation over the years between power spikes and sags and hard drive failures. In years past, we used to have a much higher percentage of HDD failures. Heck, back in the mid-90's, I was replacing a hard drive every two weeks and we had less than half the computers we have now. Google came out with an interesting research paper a while back, about their hard drive failure analytics.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I have all of my home theater equipment running into a HTS1000 surge protector that is plugged into an APC Line-R 1200. I'm not an electrical engineer or omnipotent, but I find it hard to believe I could have prevented my S3's hard drive from going bad.


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## richsadams

cogx said:


> Anyway, for what it's worth, I have all of my home theater equipment running into a HTS1000 surge protector that is plugged into an APC Line-R 1200. I'm not an electrical engineer or omnipotent, but I find it hard to believe I could have prevented my S3's hard drive from going bad.


Fully agree...hard drives go bad for numerous reasons, most of which have nothing to do with the end user. The good news is that (according to an article at tomshardware.com which I can't find for the life of me) hard drive failure rates have improved a great deal in the past few years. Of course that doesn't help when it happens to you.


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## cogx

So, to beat this dead horse a little bit more, even though it appeared that I indeed had a bad drive, once I tried the extended drive tests using the kickstart 54 menus, I took the drive out and hooked it up to my computer. I used the same Dell diag boot CD I use all the time for work and it did the same thing, the seek test worked until around 60&#37; and then it came back with an error:
Error code: 0f00:0232
Timeout waiting for IRQ

When I tried to ignore the error and continue the test, my PC completely locked up at that point, much like my S3 would eventually reboot itself.

Oddly, it makes me feel better that I know for sure the drive was indeed bad, even though it isn't presenting itself with the same symptoms a failed drive does in a PC. The fact that it still passes the short SMART tests makes me think there is a type-of-usage failure here, that DVR HDDs fail in a completely different way from drives used in a PC. 

Anyway, I put in a WD5000AVVS and used InstantCake and finally it now seems to be working again. This new drive is louder, though. Somewhere on this site I read someone say the same thing about the 1TB variant of this drive and that they used the Hitachi Feature tool to change the acoustic level, so I suppose I'll try that. I did check the acoustic level on the original, bad drive, and interestingly it was set to 254, not 128, and yet I could barely hear the thing compared to the new drive. Oh well, it's still not disruptive either way, just as long as it keeps WORKING!


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## richsadams

cogx said:


> So, to beat this dead horse a little bit more, even though it appeared that I indeed had a bad drive, once I tried the extended drive tests using the kickstart 54 menus, I took the drive out and hooked it up to my computer. I used the same Dell diag boot CD I use all the time for work and it did the same thing, the seek test worked until around 60% and then it came back with an error:
> Error code: 0f00:0232
> Timeout waiting for IRQ <snip>


Thanks much for the info...much appreciated! :up:

There are more and more folks here finding out that the "short" diagnostics (be they TiVo's or even the manufacturer's) often don't catch the problem which seems to be much deeper...if that makes sense.

In any case, glad to hear that you're up and running again!


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## fareal

Add me to the list here.. my TiVo S3 is working ok right now, but recently it has been rebooting every now and then and it has given me the GSOD a few times. The TiVo S3 is only 16 months old. I added a WD My DVR Expander approximately 3 months ago. I first started seeing this problem only a couple of weeks ago. I hope it doesn't get worse, but after reading a couple pages of this thread, I think it will get worse.

I only have an OTA antenna connected.


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## BrianL-WA

I have two Tivo HD units, each with the Tivo co-branded eSATA My DVR Expanders, both running v9.4 software. I have had both units since Tivo launched the HD, and added the Expanders the same day when Tivo first started selling them.

On or around October 1st 2008 (or as early as mid-August), i noticed that certain HD recordings were being cut short, pixelizing, stuttering, rebooting, slow menu responses, etc. Then, over the past 3 weeks, I noticed all these bad effects happening anytime either tuner is on an HD channel--consistent with the symtoms reported on this thread even back to 2007, but also on other threads.

Tivo tech support had me remove the network connection and take out the cable cards (i have Comcast, and each Tivo had 1 M-Stream card by Motorola). Everything worked fine for a consistent 5+ days. The original programs that were cut short remained truncated, but other more recent recordings that were playing back corrupted now played fine. Putting the cable cards back, OR simply tuning to *any* HD channel caused all problems to start back.

Comcast and Tivo believe the problem is with the cable cards. However:

How could BOTH Tivo's experience essentially the same problems at exactly the same time?
After 5 (five) truck rolls and swapping of 6 M-Stream and 4 S-Stream cards on BOTH Tivo's, new cable cards do NOT fix the problem.
I know and understand (being a CS grad myself) the HDD issues that Rich and others have raised, but i have a very difficult time believing this would be the sole cause given 2 different DVRs. It points to a conflict between the v9.4 software (dont know when Tivo launched it) and perhaps some decoding/firmware updates to the Cablecards? Or perhaps just v9.4?

Either way--can someone suggest some options I can consider? I've not yet executed the Kickstart option Tivo suggests is next as i'm trying to backup both Tivo recordings to my home PC using Tivo Desktop Plus first. I'd even purchase new HDDs just on a whim if someone could point to software like InstantCake but that would also copy over the existing programs from the original HDD(+eSATA expander) to the new HDD.

Please help! Both Tivo's are down!:down:
thanks,
Brian


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## richsadams

BrianL-WA said:


> On or around October 1st 2008 (or as early as mid-August), i noticed that certain HD recordings were being cut short, pixelizing, stuttering, rebooting, slow menu responses, etc. Then, over the past 3 weeks, I noticed all these bad effects happening anytime either tuner is on an HD channel--consistent with the symtoms reported on this thread even back to 2007, but also on other threads.


If both of your TiVo's began experiencing the exact same problem on the exact same day and knowing that there were no changes to your TiVo's (software or hardware) and the fact that if you remove your cable cards things return to normal, I'd say it's not your hard drive or cable cards. I'd also say that it's clear that it isn't your new cable cards either if you're seeing the same issues (with the remote but unlikely possibilty of a cable card firmware update that no one at Comcast is aware of).

Baring any other changes that you haven't posted IMO the only common denominator is the incoming signal itself. It's not unheard of or uncommon for the cable signal to change due to something happening "upstream" either intentional or by accident.

We experienced a similar problem (with Comcast) a couple of years ago where the tech swapped out cable cards, checked everything in our house, etc. and declared that it was a TiVo problem. After not one, not two but three more truck rolls the third tech checked the signal coming in from the street and found that something was wrong at the "head end" somewhere in another part of our neighborhood. After a half hour he came back to let us know that someone had made a mistake with the wiring and it was now corrected. He was right and there have been zero problems since then.

That's not to say that something like that is your specific problem, but I'd pressure Comcast until they can prove the incoming signal hasn't been changed and is pristine. And don't let them try put you off by connecting one of their POS DVR's to declare that everything is okay because their equipment works.

So I agree with you that the odds of both of your TiVo's failing at the same moment without anything happening to them are very unlikely.

You could try running the Kickstarts on one of the units to see if it makes any difference, but I don't believe it probably will. (The KS procedure shouldn't affect any existing recordings.) One other option would be to properly divorce the eSATA drive from one of your TiVo's to see if it makes any difference, but again, I doubt if it will. If you're close enough to the broadcast towers you could try removing your coax and cable cards, connecting an antenna (running Guided Setup) and recording some HD programming to verify that your TiVo's are able to do so. If they don't experience any problems my money is on a Comcast problem.

Best of luck and let us know what you find out. :up:


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## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> I'd even purchase new HDDs just on a whim if someone could point to software like InstantCake but that would also copy over the existing programs from the original HDD(+eSATA expander) to the new HDD.





richsadams said:


> If they don't experience any problems my money is on a Comcast problem.


While I'd agree it sounds like a Comcast issue, i would be way too frustrated to do nothing but hope they will fix it when there were things I could try myself.

If it were me I would use WinMFS to copy just one of your TivoHD's to a new larger HDD. I would not worry about the expander for now. Just set the original drive and the expander aside for awhile. Let it run on the new drive for a week or so and see if the problem persists.

If it doesn't fix anything, you can put back in the original drive and expander back in and wait on Comcast to fix things. Do the upgrade again later when things are working and after you have all your shows transfered to a PC you want to keep.

If it DID fix it, then you would have to determine if it was the original drive or the expander which was the problem. I am not really sure if it possible to upgrade the internal and keep your external without a divorce/remarry. (I didn't have much luck when I tried.)


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## BrianL-WA

Rich, Greg-
Thanks for the more detailed replies. Some additional info: while i said both Tivo's exhibited the problem at the same time, it was at least during the same week--given i'm noticing this on recorded programs from the same week back in Sept.

A couple of thoughts/questions:

I'm going to buy a new (third) Tivo HD today, place the cable cards into it, and see if i get the same issue. If not, can we agree its a Tivo (HW or SW) issue?
On using WinMFS to copy the OEM HDD to a new, larger HDD, some questions: upon divorce of the eSATA extender, are there still complete programs stored on the original HDD that will copy over? Can you point me to a link on instructions using WinMFS to do this, and minimum PC requirements? (i have an old Win98 machine that i think will work, but not sure)
In installing the new HDD after using WinMFS to copy the original HDD, if i dont also connect the eSATA extender wont Tivo automatically erase all the programming just copied over? (because it doesnt see the married eSTA drive?)
On the new HDD, i've seen recommendations on the Seagate Barracuda ES.2 line and also the Seagate DB35 line--any experience with either and/or recommendations? both seem higher-end and more fit for Tivo than the OEM from what i've read.
Other thoughts/suggestions i might try?


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## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> 1. I'm going to buy a new (third) Tivo HD today, place the cable cards into it, and see if i get the same issue. If not, can we agree its a Tivo (HW or SW) issue?


If you do that won't you be stuck with the other two non-working ones?  (And possibly a third if it is a cable issue.)



BrianL-WA said:


> 2. On using WinMFS to copy the OEM HDD to a new, larger HDD, some questions: upon divorce of the eSATA extender, are there still complete programs stored on the original HDD that will copy over? Can you point me to a link on instructions using WinMFS to do this, and minimum PC requirements? (i have an old Win98 machine that i think will work, but not sure)


Now that I think about it, you would probably be better off doing a truncated backup/restore and just loose your recordings on the new drive (for the test). The only recordings that would come over anyways would be the ones made prior to attaching the eSata drive. And if you try and preserve recordings it is going to make you have the eSata drive hooked up to your PC in additional to the OEM drive. Messy.

http://www.mfslive.org/

WinMFS requires XP (or Vista). There is MFSLive which is a bootable Linux cd that you could use instead. (Slightly tricker, but not hard). There is an online tool that will tell you the correct commands to type.

Also you need a newer PC with internal Sata ports.



BrianL-WA said:


> 3. In installing the new HDD after using WinMFS to copy the original HDD, if i dont also connect the eSATA extender wont Tivo automatically erase all the programming just copied over? (because it doesnt see the married eSTA drive?)


Yes and no. There is a way to copy the main drive to a new one and keep the eSata. But I wouldn't do that for your test since you want to be running on a new drive w/o the eSata attached.



BrianL-WA said:


> 4. On the new HDD, i've seen recommendations on the Seagate Barracuda ES.2 line and also the Seagate DB35 line--any experience with either and/or recommendations? both seem higher-end and more fit for Tivo than the OEM from what i've read.


Heard good things about the DB35. Not familiar with the ES.2.

I personally like the WD green drives. Since you have TivoHD's you can use the WD10EACS. Nice cheap, drive 1B.


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## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> Other thoughts/suggestions i might try?


Might just offload the recordings from one Tivo to your PC via Tivo2Go and just divorce its eSata and see where that gets you.


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## chellyaz

Gentle people,
I too have a Series 3, that I've had from the earliest of days, trouble free until very recently. I am now having a number of performance problems since my 9.4 software update. My Tivo is not, however, rebooting, or locking up. The biggest problem I am having is that my Tivo stops responding to the remote after 3-4 clicks of any button in quick succession. I have to wait about 1-10 seconds, before it comes back, and then I get another 3-4 clicks, until it stops responding again. 

When the Tivo stops responding to the remote, I don't get a yellow light response from the Tivo, basically no response at all. But the Tivo does respond to the front panel buttons. I do not have IR interference, as I don't have any remotes in the room other than my Tivo remote. If I press any button at a slow rate (1-2 seconds between remote commands), I don't experience any problems.

During this time, if the last button press is the Guide, the entry refesh listings are drawn on the screen very slowly. Any other time they are quite fast (what I've come to expect from my Tivo).

What this suggests to me, is a sloppy interrupt service routine in 9.4. Poor performing interrupt service routines can cause all the problems I've read about since the 9.4 update, and can by themselves cause disk corruption.
Others have reported poor remote behavior with the new 9.4 update. Any chance to reload an earlier version of the software to see if I get my remote back?

Carter


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## richsadams

chellyaz said:


> What this suggests to me, is a sloppy interrupt service routine in 9.4. Poor performing interrupt service routines can cause all the problems I've read about since the 9.4 update, and can by themselves cause disk corruption.
> Others have reported poor remote behavior with the new 9.4 update. Any chance to reload an earlier version of the software to see if I get my remote back?
> 
> Carter


Sorry to hear that you're having trouble with your TiVo. I'm sure that you did, but have you tried rebooting TiVo (unplug it, wait 10 to 15 seconds and plug it back in) to see if things clear up? Many times that's all it takes.

Quick question: if you unplug your coax cable and/or remove your cable cards, does your TiVo run normally? If it does the details below may or may not apply...just let us know.

To answer your question, unfortunately no, there is no way to "roll back" your TiVo to an earlier software version. Based on the symptoms you've outlined that wouldn't make any difference anyway IMHO.

Most of the remote command problems end up being a bad remote control...even just low batteries. If something like this were wide-spread there would be a lot more posts on the forum like yours since everyone has been running v9.4 for several months now. Remote command problems have been around as long as TiVo...AFAIK there are no more or less complaints since v9.4 was released.

If TiVo were only not responding to your remote, I'd say replace the remote (and I trust you have replaced the batteries). However the slow screens, etc. probably point to a corrupted or failing hard drive. As mentioned you could try running TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts. If that doesn't cure things you'll likely need to replace the hard drive.

Instant Cake might be another option, but again, if the hard drive is failing, that wouldn't help...at least for long.

You can get a replacement TiVo DVR from TiVo for $149 since it's outside of it's one-year labor warranty. Or you could replace the hard drive (with a larger one) yourself if you're up for it. All of the information you need can be found on the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky thread (Section III, #30).

Other folks here may have some more ideas.

Let us know how it goes!


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## ccrider2

chellyaz said:


> Gentle people,
> I too have a Series 3, that I've had from the earliest of days, trouble free until very recently. I am now having a number of performance problems since my 9.4 software update. My Tivo is not, however, rebooting, or locking up. The biggest problem I am having is that my Tivo stops responding to the remote after 3-4 clicks of any button in quick succession. I have to wait about 1-10 seconds, before it comes back, and then I get another 3-4 clicks, until it stops responding again.
> 
> When the Tivo stops responding to the remote, I don't get a yellow light response from the Tivo, basically no response at all. But the Tivo does respond to the front panel buttons. I do not have IR interference, as I don't have any remotes in the room other than my Tivo remote. If I press any button at a slow rate (1-2 seconds between remote commands), I don't experience any problems.
> 
> During this time, if the last button press is the Guide, the entry refesh listings are drawn on the screen very slowly. Any other time they are quite fast (what I've come to expect from my Tivo).
> 
> What this suggests to me, is a sloppy interrupt service routine in 9.4. Poor performing interrupt service routines can cause all the problems I've read about since the 9.4 update, and can by themselves cause disk corruption.
> Others have reported poor remote behavior with the new 9.4 update. Any chance to reload an earlier version of the software to see if I get my remote back?
> 
> Carter


I think Rich is right.

Try changing the batteries. Mine does the same thing when they get weak. I noticed this because the "glow" wouldn't always work or would turn off quickly. The Glow Remotes seem to eat up batteries. YMMV

Hope it works,
Chris


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## richsadams

ccrider2 said:


> I think Rich is right.


  Be afraid, be very afraid.


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## ccrider2

richsadams said:


> Be afraid, be very afraid.


Hey..... Credit-where-credit do. :up:

Chris


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## 1dusted1

I have had the same problems with my series 3 freezing, restarting and generally responding sluggishly for the last few months - Tivo customer service just informed me that they are aware that the 9.4 update triggered a hardware problem in these units which cannot be fixed without returning the unit - I am forced to pay the $150 + tax (+ return shipping on the broken unit) for a new unit - I made the case that, since it was their software update (which was forced upon me through the normal use of their service) which caused this defect, they should be responsible for any resulting hardware issues and therefor replace the unit for free - they were unsympathetic to this argument and told me that there was no way that they would replace my unit for free. I am looking into legal remedies - if anyone else out there has had the same problem please contact me regarding a potential class-action suit.


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## richsadams

1dusted1 said:


> I am looking into legal remedies - if anyone else out there has had the same problem please contact me regarding a potential class-action suit.


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## greg_burns

1dusted1 said:


> Tivo customer service just informed me that they are aware that the 9.4 update triggered a hardware problem in these units


wrong

The software update did not cause your harddrive to fail, it just revealed an existing problem with it. (Tivo updates alternate installing between two parittions on your drive.) End result is your Tivo is no longer working. Yeah, that is true, but it is not technically the software update's fault. YOUR DRIVE IS GOING BAD AND IS OUT OF WARRANTY. Those are the facts.



1dusted1 said:


> ...which cannot be fixed without returning the unit


wrong again

This thread might shed some light on what your other options are.


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## cogx

As someone who just went through this ordeal, my biggest gripe is that with HDD warranties being 3 to 5 years and given the known fact that a significant number of HDDs out of any large group of units will fail, for the premium cost we paid for the S3, TiVo should be offering to replace the failed HDDs in those units for much *LESS* than $150. OEM 250GB hard drives sell now for $50. What exactly is costing TiVo so much that they need an extra $100 to get these units working again? At most, they should be charging $99, which is what I had been told they used to do, but at some point they raised the cost. 

In truth, TiVo should have designed their HD unit hardware to allow for supported end-user HDD replacement, given that it is a common and *EXPECTED* failure point. It would be like car manufacturers building their cars in such a way that tires or brakes or batteries could not be replaced, but instead one had to trade their car in and get a completely different car (and of course, each time, having to pay even more money out of pocket to be able to keep driving). 

I'm all for TiVo making money, I definitely don't want to see them go under. I paid the premium price for the S3 the day it came out and for two years I had absolutely no regrets at all. However, with more and more people having their S3 HDDs failing every week, seeing TiVo raking in another $150 per unit is making me sour on them somewhat.

I truly hope they design their next-gen hardware with supported end-user HDD replacement in mind. Some units will of course experience mainboard failures, sure, but the *overwhelming* number of DVR failures are going to be due to HDD failures and as a CE device that should be taken into account when designing the product.


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## IJustLikeTivo

richsadams said:


> The subject of UPS/battery backups comes up now and then, but probably not often enough. We're almost in the same boat. Of the seven or eight TiVo's I've had in as many years, only one (an early Series2) suffered from hard drive failure.
> 
> A UPS is an absolute must. That cannot be emphasized enough. Nothing will do more damage to a hard drive than a nasty power spike. And you're right...that may have caused a number of hard drive failures without the owner's even being aware of it. A typical surge protector isn't sensitive enough to protect computer equipment.
> 
> We have a UPS for every TiVo, computer, etc. I've been using this APC model UPS on each TiVo for quite a while now with zero problems.
> 
> Good advice for anyone...if you don't have a UPS for your TiVo...get one! :up:


UPS and HDD protection is anecdotal at best. Just like saying that my purple elephant protection is working cause I've never seen one.

I've had my Tivo on a UPS since day one and I've had two HDD failures. Aside from the nuisance, TiVo replaced both for free. My mother also had one failure and I also have her on a UPS.

I think the HDD failures should be covered. Given the price point and the cost of replacement the $150 they are charging is too much. If mine fails again and they try to charge me, I'll just call DVRUpgrade and let them send me a new larger drive for less money per GB.


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## richsadams

IJustLikeTivo said:


> UPS and HDD protection is anecdotal at best. Just like saying that my purple elephant protection is working cause I've never seen one.
> 
> I've had my Tivo on a UPS since day one and I've had two HDD failures. Aside from the nuisance, TiVo replaced both for free. My mother also had one failure and I also have her on a UPS.
> 
> I think the HDD failures should be covered. Given the price point and the cost of replacement the $150 they are charging is too much. If mine fails again and they try to charge me, I'll just call DVRUpgrade and let them send me a new larger drive for less money per GB.


My post to the OP was a specific answer to a UPS question. Perhaps you missed my other post where I said the same thing?

DVRUpgrade does a great job but if you're comfortable with an R&R of the TiVo hard drive and you can connect a hard drive to a computer you also have the option of a DIY upgrade for far less (per GB) using winMFS.


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## JimWall

I had a discussion with TIVO support a couple years ago. He said they have done workarounds in thier code so they don't break "the do it yourself" HDD expansions out there. I told them they could make a lot of money doing HDD expansions themselves. Plus if a customer needs more space then that is a great customer whom you are making happy. Just good business policy. They will brag about TIVO to everyone! He said there was a lot of debate but they decided not to. 
Also it would make sense for TIVO to come out with their own WinMFS utility to make it easier and ensure it doesn't break anything. 
I think the $150 for replacing a HDD is mostly labor plus a way to discourage customers from overusing the service. 
When I cancelled my service on a series 2 I was offered a refurbished Tivo HD for $199. Only $50 more than the HDD replacement cost!


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## BrianL-WA

Rich, Greg, all--

I wanted to post a follow-up to the issues i posted last week. Many thanks to the input from those who replied to my post. Here's the quick update:


Purchased a new Tivo HD and put it adjacent to one of the two Tivo HD already owned that are exhibiting these problems. Did not update the firmware or allow the new Tivo HD to connect to the network. S/W version is 8.1.7c
Put the existing CableCard into the new Tivo HD
Worked flawlessly on all HD stations
Allowed the new Tivo HD to update its S/W (to 9.4b-1-2-652). [note the "b" designation--Tivo tech support doesnt know what this is, as my other 2 Tivo HDs are just 9.4-1-2-652).
Still, all HD channels work flawlessly.
Cable strength and quality is at/near 100%
Tivo TechSupport's recommendation is that I divorice one of the WD eSATA extenders and see if that fixes the problem. They believe the problem is either (i) internal HDD failure, or (ii) eSATA drive failure.

How could both of my Tivo HD's units with eSATA fail around the same week? i'm still of the belief that something with the new 9.4 s/w plus 'filled' Tivo HD + eSATA hardware is to blame. Any thoughts?

I've not yet swapped internal drives with a new drive, used WinMFS, etc... since i'd prefer to narrow down the cause of the problem before losing all my programming and going through more expense/hassle.

Appreciate your insights.
-Brian


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## ThePennyDropped

I've lost count of how many S3's TiVo has had to replace for me. My current replacement seems to have a failing hard drive. (My first and third were bad hard drives, another had electrical problems, another had audio problems... I think there might even have been one more somewhere along the way.)

My latest replacement started acting funny a couple nights ago -- the menu background would be there, but it'd take a long time for any options to appear, response to the remote was slow, etc. The problem seemed to clear up for a full day, but now its in a pattern of rebooting again and again.

I've read the page about the kickstart diagnostics, Kickstart 57, Kickstart 58 and Kickstart 52, but I've also seen some references to Kickstart 54 here.

Do any of you know the order in which the 4 kickstarts should be used? (The link most people here have referenced doesn't mention kickstart 54, which is why I'm asking.)

Thanks for any advice you can offer.


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## hunts

Does anyone think that Tivo is sending out refurb S3 *WITH* refurbed HDD? That would only explain the massive poor quality of the S3 Tivo's with bad HDD.


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## ThePennyDropped

hunts said:


> Does anyone think that Tivo is sending out refurb S3 *WITH* refurbed HDD? That would only explain the massive poor quality of the S3 Tivo's with bad HDD.


I'm pretty sure of it, since the units they've sent me as replacements (if they're not DOA) only last a few months at most before I see problems that I attribute to HDD failure.

(My DOA units did not have HDD problems.)


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## richsadams

ThePennyDropped said:


> Do any of you know the order in which the 4 kickstarts should be used? (The link most people here have referenced doesn't mention kickstart 54, which is why I'm asking.)
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer.


The order doesn't really matter as each does something different (or in addition to). If I put them in some sort of order it would be 57, 58, 52, 54.

That said it does sound like a failing hard drive. Besides the kickstarts, the only other thing I would try is to disconnect the coax and/or remove the cable cards to see if things clear up.


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## ThePennyDropped

richsadams said:


> The order doesn't really matter as each does something different (or in addition to). If I put them in some sort of order it would be 57, 58, 52, 54.
> 
> That said it does sound like a failing hard drive. Besides the kickstarts, the only other thing I would try is to disconnect the coax and/or remove the cable cards to see if things clear up.


Thanks for the advice. I tried Kickstart 57 about 4 hours ago, and the Tivo seems to be working fine for now. (It was previously rebooting every 10 - 20 minutes or so.)

Is this most likely just a temporary fix, or is there a reasonable chance that the Kickstart 57 will prevent the TiVo from using the bad section of the HDD (assuming that's what the problem truly is)?


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## richsadams

ThePennyDropped said:


> Thanks for the advice. I tried Kickstart 57 about 4 hours ago, and the Tivo seems to be working fine for now. (It was previously rebooting every 10 - 20 minutes or so.)
> 
> Is this most likely just a temporary fix, or is there a reasonable chance that the Kickstart 57 will prevent the TiVo from using the bad section of the HDD (assuming that's what the problem truly is)?


There's a good chance that things will be fine going forward. Bad sectors (bad sector, BAD SECTOR!  ) crop up on hard disks periodically. Some computer systems (and even on-board firmware) are able to overcome them automagically but AFAIK TiVo doesn't have that capability. However after running KS 57 and/or KS58 they should be isolated so that they will never, ever be used again.

It could have also been a simple case of data corruption which was corrected. Power surges/outages, etc. can cause those sorts of things. It should probably go without saying, but TiVo (and truly all other CE components) should be on _quality _  surge protectors at minimum, a power conditioner or uninterruptible power supply (UPS) to prevent future problems. All of our TiVo's have their own UPS.


----------



## ThePennyDropped

Thanks, Rich. It is on a UPS, but one that it shares with other equipment. Maybe I'll invest in one just for it. Assuming it survives the next few days, that is.


----------



## ThePennyDropped

*sigh*. It was a temporary reprieve. By the time the S3 was trying to record prime time shows in HD (as opposed to daytime kiddie shows in SD) it started rebooting. I'm so sick of this.

Has anyone had any success in getting TiVo to replace a failed S3 with a new unit instead of a refurb? I'm really getting sick of paying Comcast for a truck roll every time I lose an S3. (They won't let me install the cable cards and call in the data despite the fact that I'm the one showing the technicians how to do it each time.)


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## bareyb

Hi gang. My S3 has been very sluggish (almost unresponsive) and lots of troubles so I divorced my external drive and now all I get are constant reboots and the dreaded GSOD. 

I have been trying to do searches but there are simply too many posts with similar info in them. So to sum up, my kids are PISSED! 

1. I can't get the kickstarts to do anything. I always get the GSOD. Does this sound like a bad hard drive?

2. If I replace the hard drive, will I need a truck roll to pair the cards again?

3. Is there any difference in reliablity with the 1 TB drives versus the 750 Gig models they sell at DVR UPgrade?

4. Anything else I should know before buying a new drive?

Any help greatly appreciated.


----------



## hunts

bareyb said:


> 1. I can't get the kickstarts to do anything. I always get the GSOD. Does this sound like a bad hard drive?
> *Most likely*
> 2. If I replace the hard drive, will I need a truck roll to pair the cards again?
> *No*
> 3. Is there any difference in reliablity with the 1 TB drives versus the 750 Gig models they sell at DVR UPgrade?
> *I don't think so*
> 4. Anything else I should know before buying a new drive?
> *The extra space is really nice!*


Answers above


----------



## bareyb

hunts said:


> Answers above


Thanks hunts. The drive was indeed bad. Once I removed the external drive The TiVo wouldn't boot at all. I installed the new drive yesterday and everything works great except (or course) the part Comcast is responsible for. I spent two hours on the phone trying to get cable card number 2 to work. No joy. The guy told me to take both my cards to Comcast and get a single "Multi-stream Card". Then I have to call them back and hope the new card works. 

The odd thing is, I'm not that upset. I know they'll get it going sooner or later. I'm just relieved my beloved S3 isn't dead. I'm actually considering doing a drive expansion in my other TiVo only using the MFSTools and making a "clone" of my TiVo hard drive. I am told if you make a clone the cable cards won't be affected. So I'm looking into that. In the mean time it's off to the Comcast office to see if they will give me an "M" card over the counter.


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## greg_burns

bareyb said:


> I'm actually considering doing a drive expansion in my other TiVo only using the MFSTools and making a "clone" of my TiVo hard drive. I am told if you make a clone the cable cards won't be affected.


A truncated backup (settings only no recordings) using WinMFS will capture cable card pairing info.


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## bareyb

greg_burns said:


> A truncated backup (settings only no recordings) using WinMFS will capture cable card pairing info.


You know? I really think I may give this a try! 

I wish they had a version of the MFS type tools for the Macintosh as I don't have a PC. However... There IS a PC over there on my Wife's desk I might be able to "borrow" for a bit... 

Either way, I need some type of cable to hook it up to the PC. The USB adapter would be the easiest. If I want to hook up "internally" inside my wifes' PC what cable do you use for that?


----------



## greg_burns

bareyb said:


> Either way, I need some type of cable to hook it up to the PC. The USB adapter would be the easiest. If I want to hook up "internally" inside my wifes' PC what cable do you use for that?


To use USB, you would have to have the drive in external enclosure. Internal hookup will be using a sata cable. If your wife's PC doesn't have sata, you would have to get an IDE to sata adapter I guess.


----------



## bareyb

greg_burns said:


> To use USB, you would have to have the drive in external enclosure. Internal hookup will be using a sata cable. If your wife's PC doesn't have sata, you would have to get an IDE to sata adapter I guess.


I happen to have an extra MX-1 Enclosure on my desk... 

Amazon has the "Deskstar" 1TB drives but not the Cinemastar. Otherwise I'd order it right now...


----------



## BOMOON

Hi Everyone,

My S3 has been experiencing lockups and restarts since I installed one of the Western Digital external HDDs that I bought from DVRUpgrade. Sometime recently the software was also upgraded to 9.4-01-2-648. Unfortunately I don't know if that coincides with the installation of the HDD or not, so there are at least two variables here.

It usually happens when I'm recording a program that I'm also watching. The A/V will freeze and nothing I do with the remote will get it going again. If I tune up or down a few channels, those work OK. But when I tune back to the channel that froze, I get a blank gray screen.

If I go into the Menu | Now Playing List and try to play the recorded program from the beginning, I get a message like "The DVR could not record this program because of a low or no signal".

I will then get that same message if I try to play any other recorded program that I know played successfully in the past. 

The S3 always restarts itself sometime soon after I start doing the above things. Exactly when it does that varies. Then, after it's finished the restart, the program that was being recorded begins to record again. The S3 seems to be operating normally. In the Now Playing List, the programs previously recorded once again play without problems. However, the previously recorded section of the program being recorded prior to the reset is gone. When I click on that program, I see that it has started from where the S3 finished its reboot sequence.

From that point on, everything runs normally until the next lockup, a day or two later while I'm recording and watching a program. The program/channel I'm watching when this happens also varies. Whatever this is, it's not limited to a certain program, channel, or time of day.

Oh yeah, my cable service is Comcast. I have two of their SA cards in the S3.

I'm not sure how to proceed with this. I've seen a lot of references to the "54" test et al but don't know which one(s) to run if any, or if there's something else I should try. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks to all for your time reading this,


----------



## richsadams

bareyb said:


> The guy told me to take both my cards to Comcast and get a single "Multi-stream Card". Then I have to call them back and hope the new card works. <snip>


Happened to notice what the Comcast folks told you (surprised Greg didn't  ) about just getting one "M" card. If you have a Series3 (not a TiVo HD), you will still need two cable cards, "M" or "S".


----------



## ThePennyDropped

Does your local Comcast service let you do the pairing for your cablecards yourself? Mine doesn't. So if you are going to swap out the cablecards, you should check with Comcast first to be sure you won't need a truck roll to do that.


----------



## gbm

I've been lurking/reading these posts for awhile. I've been experiencing the problems others have described above but the system has always recovered.

Common Symptoms -- Solutions:

*Problem*: Sluggish menus eventually leading to a system that will not respond to the remote. During this time, it might appear that recently recorded programs are empty (zero minutes of recording).
*Solution*: Unplug the unit, on restart I get a GSOD for less than 10 mins followed by a reboot. After the reboot, operation is smooth and the programs that appeared to be empty are available, fully recorded, an operate smoothly. If I notice this progression and do a soft reboot before a lockup, there is no GSOD and the machine will again work 'normally'.

*Problem*: Frozen screen when turning on the TiVo (yes I know it's always on  ) I suspect that this situation occurs when the system progresses from being sluggish (as above) but unattended and it eventually progresses to a frozen image on the screen. In this case, the screen is frozen but recordings are still being correctly made.
*Solution*: Same as above.

*Problem*: Pixellation, sound dropouts, video weirdness (for very short bursts, less than a second, video might appear to be moving at a fast-forward speed). This can occur in a show I'm watching, and, interestingly, pixellation can occur even in the menus.
*Solution*: In the latest example, we watched a show -- HD -- for an hour with these problems. After the program was finished, I rebooted the TiVo and everything returned to 'normal'.

To me, this points to something in the software/hardware/firmware and not the hard drive, but I suppose that if the HD cache is overloaded this could also be an explanation.

*Ongoing solution*: Even if there have been no problems for a few days, I'll do a software reboot. I know this may or may not have an effect, but the problems seem to occur less often. I'll do this about once a week.

*My system*: S3 with Antec enclosure holding a 1TB WD drive. I've had the S3 since about a month after it was released and the 1TB drive since its release shortly after that.

This thread, by its nature, probably is encompassing several different problems -- HD failure and some possible software/hardware issues, but hopefully this post will be of help to some.

George


----------



## bareyb

richsadams said:


> Happened to notice what the Comcast folks told you (surprised Greg didn't  ) about just getting one "M" card. If you have a Series3 (not a TiVo HD), you will still need two cable cards, "M" or "S".





ThePennyDropped said:


> Does your local Comcast service let you do the pairing for your cablecards yourself? Mine doesn't. So if you are going to swap out the cablecards, you should check with Comcast first to be sure you won't need a truck roll to do that.


Yeah. Believe it or not, the counter person at Comcast had a flyer with big bold letters saying "Series 3 TiVo's need TWO cards". So they gave me two and we got them working in about 20 minutes. The problem was they had duplicate "Host Id numbers" on both Cablecard slots so we probably didn't need the new card afterall...

Is there any difference between the old S cards and these new M cards in terms of reliability and performance? Maybe I'll put a set in TiVo 1. I still get some weird hiccups on that one.


----------



## hearncl

I bought my TiVo HD in Aug. 2007. In October 2007 I added a WD "My DVR Expander" external drive. The TiVo HD is connected both to cable (Comcast) and antenna, and does not have cable cards installed. (I also have an older Series 3 with Weaknees 750 GB upgrade, and have had no problems with it.)

A couple of days ago the TiVo HD started freezing, becoming unresponsive to the remote, and spontaneously rebooting. This happens when watching live TV or recorded programs. I've tried Kickstarts 57 and 58, after which the HD appears normal but soon goes back into the freeze/reboot mode.

From reading this forum it sounds like I probably have a hard drive problem. But how do I tell whether it's the internal or external drive? Is my only option to disconnect the external drive and reboot, to see if the TiVo HD works normally without the external drive? I know this would lose all my recordings.

If I disconnect the external drive and the problem persists, it seems like it would indicate a problem with either the internal drive or the electronics. I suppose my next step would be to contact TiVo about a refurbished unit.

Am I missing any obvious diagnostic steps?

(I do have some recordings on the TiVo HD that I'd hate to lose. I'm presently trying to transfer some of these to the S3, which has plenty of room, but the freeze/reboot problem keeps interfering.)


----------



## bareyb

hearncl said:


> I bought my TiVo HD in Aug. 2007. In October 2007 I added a WD "My DVR Expander" external drive. The TiVo HD is connected both to cable (Comcast) and antenna, and does not have cable cards installed. (I also have an older Series 3 with Weaknees 750 GB upgrade, and have had no problems with it.)
> 
> A couple of days ago the TiVo HD started freezing, becoming unresponsive to the remote, and spontaneously rebooting. This happens when watching live TV or recorded programs. I've tried Kickstarts 57 and 58, after which the HD appears normal but soon goes back into the freeze/reboot mode.
> 
> From reading this forum it sounds like I probably have a hard drive problem. But how do I tell whether it's the internal or external drive? Is my only option to disconnect the external drive and reboot, to see if the TiVo HD works normally without the external drive? I know this would lose all my recordings.
> 
> If I disconnect the external drive and the problem persists, it seems like it would indicate a problem with either the internal drive or the electronics. I suppose my next step would be to contact TiVo about a refurbished unit.
> 
> Am I missing any obvious diagnostic steps?
> 
> (I do have some recordings on the TiVo HD that I'd hate to lose. I'm presently trying to transfer some of these to the S3, which has plenty of room, but the freeze/reboot problem keeps interfering.)


Hopefully it's just the External drive. I had the exact same symptoms and when I removed the external drive and rebooted my Series 3 was dead as a door nail (whatever that means  ) and so I had to conclude my problem was with my internal drive.

I was left with the option of getting a refurb for $150.00 or getting a new larger drive. I went for the larger drive. I paid 300 bucks for a 1 TB for the luxury of having it preconfigured for TiVo, but upon doing some research it looks like it would have been easy enough to do the job myself for about $170 bucks. I plan on upgrading my working TiVo (am I nuts?) to the new 1 TB drive myself using "WINMFS". It looks pretty easy. All you have to do is put the drives in an external case or get a USB to SATA adapter. There's a great FAQ on upgrading internal drives on this forum that walks you through it step by step.

There are some Kickstart codes you can try, but they didn't do anything for me. Beyond that, if you can get a new drive and get your old one to work for about ten minutes you can copy over JUST your Season Passes and other settings to a new drive and be up and running again with a lot more capacity and no external drive sitting on top of your unit. Once you make a backup of your SP's and other settings you can burn that to a CD and use it to format other drives in the future if you ever need a new one.

The only downside is upgrading your internal drive voids your warranty with TiVo. Mine was two years old so I didn't have a warranty anyway. I figure by the time the electronics go bad there will probably be something newer and faster that I'll want to get. The other option is to get a refurb of course, and just hook up your external drive to it and you'll be back where you are now. Which wouldn't be so bad either.


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## greg_burns

hearncl said:


> If I disconnect the external drive and the problem persists, it seems like it would indicate a problem with either the internal drive or the electronics. I suppose my next step would be to contact TiVo about a refurbished unit.


If it continues with the external removed it is most likely the internal drive. Since it is out of warranty (right?) I would take this as an opportunity to upgrade the internal. Paying $150 for an out-of-warranty repair would not even be on my radar.

The odds that it is something other than one of drives is very small. If, by chance, the replacement drive doesn't fix it, you can always use that investment in a refurb.


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## greg_burns

bareyb said:


> The other option is to get a refurb of course, and just hook up your external drive to it and you'll be back where you are now. Which wouldn't be so bad either.


Just to be clear, you would still loose ALL your recordings.


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## bareyb

greg_burns said:


> If it continues with the external removed it is most likely the internal drive. Since it is out of warranty (right?) I would take this as an opportunity to upgrade the internal. Paying $150 for an out-of-warranty repair would not even be on my radar.
> 
> The odds that it is something other than one of drives is very small. If, by chance, the replacement drive doesn't fix it, you can always use that investment in a refurb.


I agree. There's little reason to buy a refurb unless you are SURE the problem is other than the HDD.

*Pro's to Upgrading:*
More storage capacity
No external drive case (cuts your chance of a future HDD failure in half)
Cheaper
You will have a "backup" on CD of all your Season Passes and Settings for any future HDD problems. Good peace of mind.

*Cons to upgrading:*
Voids Warranty
Tivo won't provide support

*if it turns out NOT to be the internal Hard drive you can always put the old drive BACK in and then get a refurb unit from TiVo. They have no way of knowing you ever took it out if you never call in with the new drive installed. You'll have the larger drive as a backup drive or you can simply install it when you get the new box.


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## greg_burns

Rich just posted a great deal for a TivoHD (not original S3) internal 1GB for $99...



richsadams said:


> For anyone wanting to upgrade their TiVo HD or add an eSATA to their TiVo HD or Series3, Newegg has the bare WD 1TB WD10EACS SATA hard drive for $99.99 w/free shipping at the moment...
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136151&Tpk=22-136-151
> 
> Note that this drive will NOT work as an internal upgrade for the TiVo Series3. For more info on this, other drives and upgrade options refer to the first post on this sticky.


----------



## hearncl

hearncl said:


> I bought my TiVo HD in Aug. 2007. In October 2007 I added a WD "My DVR Expander" external drive. The TiVo HD is connected both to cable (Comcast) and antenna, and does not have cable cards installed. (I also have an older Series 3 with Weaknees 750 GB upgrade, and have had no problems with it.)
> 
> {Clipped--see #687 above}
> 
> If I disconnect the external drive and the problem persists, it seems like it would indicate a problem with either the internal drive or the electronics. I suppose my next step would be to contact TiVo about a refurbished unit.


I disconnected the external drive. On rebooting, I got the warning screen about missing external drive, did the 3 thumbs down and clear, but the TiVo wouldn't reboot and seemed to go dead. So I suppose the problem is not the external drive.

Question: I still have the 250 GB internal drive removed from my S3 when I upgraded it with a 750 GB drive from Weaknees. As a diagnostic step, could I remove the internal drive from the TiVo HD and replace it with the one removed from my S3, to see if the unit will boot up? The drive was removed almost two years ago, so has an obsolete operating system as well as the Season Passes from the S3 at the time it was removed. If I do this, is there any incompatibility between the S3 and the THD that would keep the old S3 drive from working in the THD?

If I can confirm that the problem is the internal drive, I think I'll do as bareyb suggested and upgrade to a larger drive, rather than getting a refurb unit.


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## greg_burns

hearncl said:


> Question: I still have the 250 GB internal drive removed from my S3 when I upgraded it with a 750 GB drive from Weaknees. As a diagnostic step, could I remove the internal drive from the TiVo HD and replace it with the one removed from my S3, to see if the unit will boot up? The drive was removed almost two years ago, so has an obsolete operating system as well as the Season Passes from the S3 at the time it was removed. If I do this, is there any incompatibility between the S3 and the THD that would keep the old S3 drive from working in the THD?


No, you don't want to try that. An S3 drive will not work in a TivoHD or vice versa.


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## BrianL-WA

Still pursuing my saga of determining why both my TivoHDs started acting up around the same day...oddly, i'm having the same issue as the poster before about not being able to divorice my eSATA drive--Tivo just reboots with the same screen on how to divorce the drive; so now i'm back to keeping them paired and running Kickstart 57,58 then try 52. Any other suggestions?

Additional Questions:

How can i use winMFS to copy all the programming from a (160GB WD internal (original tivo hdd) + 500GB WD Tivo Extender) to a new 1TB WD internal drive?
Can i do this using a laptop (only other PC i have that is running windows XP/vista) using the USB ports with an appropriate external SATA<->USB connector + power?
Is there any reason/advantages to using Instant Cake over winMFS for what i need to do to replace these 2 drives with the single internal (new) hdd?
thanks again! 
Brian


----------



## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> Still pursuing my saga of determining why both my TivoHDs started acting up around the same day...oddly, i'm having the same issue as the poster before about not being able to divorice my eSATA drive--Tivo just reboots with the same screen on how to divorce the drive; so now i'm back to keeping them paired and running Kickstart 57,58 then try 52. Any other suggestions?
> 
> Additional Questions:
> 
> How can i use winMFS to copy all the programming from a (160GB WD internal (original tivo hdd) + 500GB WD Tivo Extender) to a new 1TB WD internal drive?
> Can i do this using a laptop (only other PC i have that is running windows XP/vista) using the USB ports with an appropriate external SATA<->USB connector + power?
> Is there any reason/advantages to using Instant Cake over winMFS for what i need to do to replace these 2 drives with the single internal (new) hdd?
> thanks again!
> Brian


I don't know if you can recombine them into one drive. My gut says no.

If your image is screwed up, and it kinda sounds like it is, you may have to use Instant Cake to start over. Will the external SATA<->USB connector be recognized by the Linux distro used by IC? Don't know the answer to that either.

The advantage of using WinMFS over IC is you don't loose your settings. Sounds like your recordings are a goner either way.


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## bareyb

BrianL-WA said:


> Still pursuing my saga of determining why both my TivoHDs started acting up around the same day...oddly, i'm having the same issue as the poster before about not being able to divorice my eSATA drive--Tivo just reboots with the same screen on how to divorce the drive; so now i'm back to keeping them paired and running Kickstart 57,58 then try 52. Any other suggestions?
> 
> Additional Questions:
> 
> How can i use winMFS to copy all the programming from a (160GB WD internal (original tivo hdd) + 500GB WD Tivo Extender) to a new 1TB WD internal drive?
> Can i do this using a laptop (only other PC i have that is running windows XP/vista) using the USB ports with an appropriate external SATA<->USB connector + power?
> Is there any reason/advantages to using Instant Cake over winMFS for what i need to do to replace these 2 drives with the single internal (new) hdd?
> thanks again!
> Brian


According to the FAQ you can't combine two drive together on one drive. At least not yet. Maybe you can transfer all the shows you want to keep onto your other TIVo using MRV? Then you can use WINMFS to copy over just your setting and season passes to a new larger single drive (internal) and move everything back onto it from your other TiVo once you're done.

As I understand it, Instant Cake only puts the TiVo software on your new drive, and doesn't copy over settings and season passes from your current drive. FWIW, I've looked at both softwares and after seeing the screenshots I wouldn't bother with Instant Cake. WINMFS has a better interface (GUI), does more and it's FREE.


----------



## tigo219

Hi all, I've been reading this thread trying to find answers, but I thought maybe if I just describe my situation, someone might be able to offer some insight.

My S3 TiVo with two Scientific Atlanta cable cards from TWC in NYC started slowing up about a week and a half ago. A couple of days ago the tivo just started completely freezing, no channels would change and even the tivo menus would not function correctly. I did the kickstarts, but they have had no affect. I read on this thread that removing the coax and/or one of the cable cards would help, which it actually did, but I still can't use it with both cards installed.

So I called Tivo yesterday, explained the situation and they recommended to have the Cable Company hit the cards again, and if that doesn't work to replace the cards. It seems when the cable co. hit the cards again, that knocked out most of my channels except for the "basic" local channel in both SD and HD, and the second card STILL doesn't work at all. So I have two new cards coming.

My concern is what to do if the new cards still produce no new result. Does anyone have any words of wisdom to pass on? Will this just fix itsself? I have a feeling somehow my cable company messed up something with a recent upgrade to our HD channels (they added some new channels in HD like Cartoon Network and FX).

Please help! I just would like to try and understand what my options are.


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## richsadams

tigo219 said:


> Hi all, I've been reading this thread trying to find answers, but I thought maybe if I just describe my situation, someone might be able to offer some insight. <snip>


If things cleared up when you removed the coax and if the new cable cards are installed properly and things don't improve it's most likely that the hard drive is causing the issue and will need to be replaced. That's worked for quite a few people on this and a several other threads. There are a number of theories as to why replacing the hard drive works (I have my own...the OEM drive's 2MB of cache is not enough) but whatever it is, that will probably resolve it.

There are a couple of ways to go. Replace the drive yourself. It's not hard and a visit to the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky thread is in order. Even though it started out as an eSATA drive thread, it has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section III, #30 covers internal upgrades.

You could buy a pre-imaged hard drive from a company like DVRUpgrade (one of the sponsors of this forum and very good to deal with).

You also have the option of exchanging your TiVo. If it's less than one year old the labor warranty exchange is $49. If it's older TiVo will usually offer a $149 replacement/exchange.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## BrianL-WA

If anyone can find a solution for my prior post about combining two drives into a new, larger HDD please do let me know! What about if i tried to copy programming from juse the original OEM HDD and not the eSATA WD Extender? or, are tivo files spawned across both drives and hence its unlikely to get a good copy? 


Does winMFS do everything IC does? In other words, does winMFS also create a clean new Tivo image as well as copy over my old preferences, setting, etc?
In what scenario is IC better than winMFS?
Before I embark, can anyone confirm that IC or winMFS work with SATA drives attached via USB?
Thank you all again!
Brian


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## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> If anyone can find a solution for my prior post about combining two drives into a new, larger HDD please do let me know! What about if i tried to copy programming from juse the original OEM HDD and not the eSATA WD Extender? or, are tivo files spawned across both drives and hence its unlikely to get a good copy?
> 
> 
> Does winMFS do everything IC does? In other words, does winMFS also create a clean new Tivo image as well as copy over my old preferences, setting, etc?
> In what scenario is IC better than winMFS?
> Before I embark, can anyone confirm that IC or winMFS work with SATA drives attached via USB?
> Thank you all again!
> Brian


I believe the theory is that the files a spawned across both drives. I think your safest approach is to MRV to another Tivo or Tivo2Go to a PC.

WinMFS does NOT create a clean new Tivo image. It copies your current one over, which, if everything is running good, should be just fine. But if you are having issues currently, then IC is your next stop. Try WinMFS first though since it is free.

I've read that people have used WinMFS with Sata USB adapters. Not sure about IC.


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## tigo219

Thanks for the quick response Rich!

I just discovered that while I'm getting only a few channels, one of the is CineMax and I don't even subscribe to that channel. So I think this really might be something to do with TimeWarner. Its really good to understand my options for sure! I'll keep you posted after I get the new cable cards. Fingers Crossed!

T.


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## richsadams

tigo219 said:


> I just discovered that while I'm getting only a few channels, one of the is CineMax and I don't even subscribe to that channel. So I think this really might be something to do with TimeWarner. Its really good to understand my options for sure! I'll keep you posted after I get the new cable cards. Fingers Crossed! T.


It is possible then that the cable cards are the issue. SA cable cards were notoriously problematic with TiVo HD's when they first came out and seem to have more complaints than Motorola cable cards. I've also read about cable card firmware updates causing things to go south as well.

Best of luck!


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## JimWall

I unplugged the coax antenna input while the other end was still plugged into the TIVO. Result was immediate freeze of the show I was watching (which as also still being recorded off the OTHER cable input). Then I could not view recorded shows. I got an error about encryption instead. The S3 then rebooted itself and got the GSOD. After about 20 minutes it rebooted and all seems OK except the show I was watching and recording at the same time was gone. Recorded shows also played back fine.
I speculate that a static charge went through the cable into the TIVO and temporarily zapped the cable cards. Thus the error about encryption. I was lucky TIVO was able to repair the filesystem on reboot.
This makes me wonder how many people have issues with TIVO due to any kind of spike coming through the coax.


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## richsadams

JimWall said:


> I unplugged the coax antenna input while the other end was still plugged into the TIVO. Result was immediate freeze of the show I was watching <snip>
> This makes me wonder how many people have issues with TIVO due to any kind of spike coming through the coax.


Good point! I always take for granted that folks will unplug their TiVo's before disconnecting (or connecting) cables of any sort.

Sounds like yours suffered some minor data corruption (possibly due to the HDCP being interrupted) that was fixed by TiVo's own diagnostic program (MFS assert) so all should be well going forward.

Any issues with cable cards are generally permanent (not self-repairing) so I wouldn't worry about them.

Static electricity can be problematic for any computer of course, but AFAIK no one here has reported any "spikes" coming through the coax although some surge protectors and UPS units have a coax in/out to prevent such things. Use of that option is generally NOT recommended due to the signal degradation, but of course YMMV.

So note to others in the future...be sure to unplug your TiVo before connecting or disconnecting input/output cables, coax, etc.!


----------



## thewebgal

richsadams said:


> That said, if the coax can be disconnected and TiVo runs fine and if the hard drive can be re-imaged or replaced and TiVo runs fine with the coax reconnected...there is a relationship between the two. My 2MB of cache in the OEM hard drive is not enough theory falls by the wayside if re-imaging an OEM drive can correct the problem. Unless of course the OEM drive fails later when it tries to write to the original bad sectors and so there goes that theory, sort of. Plus I'm not clear about how many folks have simply re-imaged their OEM drives and resolved the issue. More often than not the posts say that the OP's have replaced their hard drives with new, larger models (with larger on-board cache  ).
> 
> In any case, I agree that there is a correlation between software upgrades and the hard drive's ability to function correctly. A number of people that had the same issues with v9.3x have said that everything is fine since they received v9.4. Did software correct the problem and/or will it arise again on the next download?
> 
> I simply keep coming back to the fact that if the hard drive is replaced using IC or WinMFS, the coax/freeze/reboot issue goes away. Arguments about how fair that is, why that is, or if someone should be hung by their thumbs aside, it works. IMHO there will be no one reason/silver bullet as to why it is what it is because there are so many variables. It is what it is. Poor horse.


Hmmm - I have a TIVOHD and I'm getting a hanging, jumpy image from time to time - seems like one of my two tuners locks up more frequently.

i have a replacement (upgrade drive) I installed in Feb 2008 using WinMFS

Seagate ST3750840SCE - 750gb 7200rpm Sata300 (This Is A Ce Drive)


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## tigo219

Update:

Time Warner came out today to replace the cable cards, and the result is the same. Almost immediately after the 2nd card is installed, the whole thing locks up. They even installed Multi-stream cards, but still no dice. 

So they left, and I managed to get the one card solution working. TiVo is sending me a new box since it's still within warranty. They think the problem is with slot 2 not the hard drive. Reading through some these postings I'm concerned that this is a hard drive issue and it may happen again.

Would adding an external HD help prevent this issue from re-occurring?


----------



## richsadams

tigo219 said:


> Would adding an external HD help prevent this issue from re-occurring?


Not likely. It does sound like a faulty tuner. If it happens with your new box, then I'd be more inclined to think that it's a cable card issue. Per a number of posts over the years here, techs can go through a half-dozen or more cable cards before they get one that works. Scientific Atlanta (SA) cable cards seem to be the worst...Motorola cards seem to have far less trouble.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## richsadams

thewebgal said:


> Hmmm - I have a TIVOHD and I'm getting a hanging, jumpy image from time to time - seems like one of my two tuners locks up more frequently.
> 
> i have a replacement (upgrade drive) I installed in Feb 2008 using WinMFS
> 
> Seagate ST3750840SCE - 750gb 7200rpm Sata300 (This Is A Ce Drive)


Hmmm...also sounds more like a signal issue if it's images and not menus, etc.


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## hearncl

hearncl said:


> I bought my TiVo HD in Aug. 2007. In October 2007 I added a WD "My DVR Expander" external drive. The TiVo HD is connected both to cable (Comcast) and antenna, and does not have cable cards installed. (I also have an older Series 3 with Weaknees 750 GB upgrade, and have had no problems with it.)
> 
> A couple of days ago the TiVo HD started freezing, becoming unresponsive to the remote, and spontaneously rebooting...<snip>


Just an update on this. I removed the DVR Expander and the TiVo wouldn't boot, indicating a possible problem with the internal drive. I replaced it with a 750 GB upgrade and the TiVo HD works perfectly now. (I removed the hard drive from the Expander and reformatted it for use with my Mac.)

Thanks for your help everyone. This forum was invaluable.


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## richsadams

hearncl said:


> Just an update on this. I removed the DVR Expander and the TiVo wouldn't boot, indicating a possible problem with the internal drive. I replaced it with a 750 GB upgrade and the TiVo HD works perfectly now. (I removed the hard drive from the Expander and reformatted it for use with my Mac.)
> 
> Thanks for your help everyone. This forum was invaluable.


Well done and thanks for letting us know. A lot of times people seem to resolve things but never come back to tell the tale (or maybe they don't come back because they received bad advice...hmmm.  )

Enjoy! :up:


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## BrianL-WA

All,
I wanted to report back from the problems i am having on my 2 Tivo HDs that are exhibiting lockups, freezing of menus, reboots, etc... all in ONLY the situation the Tivo's go to any HD channel.


Tivo #1: Steps taken: disconnected the eSATA drive, and replaced the OEM drive with a 1TB Seagate ES.2 with InstantCake. Tivo has been working flawlessly since. I tried to "divorce" the eSATA drive before replacing the OEM HDD, but when i did that the internal drive must have crashed hard--winMFS couldnt even detect it as a Tivo Drive and hence why i had to use Instant Cake to build the new drive from scratch. I'm in the SLOW process of copying 300+GB of shows back to this rebuilt Tivo [btw--does anyhow have a link to where folks have done stats on expected file transfer times to<->from tivo's? the max i've been able to achieve is about 56MB/min, but sometimes as slow as 25MB/min...need that gigabit card, Tivo!]

Tivo #2: I havent begun a similar repair. However, i want to keep the eSATA drive i have and just replace the OEM HDD. I know posters in the past have referred me to the Official eSATA Drvie Expansion in 9.2 FAQ, and i found the reference below but i would be grateful is someone could actually reply back with the *specific* commans in MFSLive to do this?
*18. Can I upgrade the built-in hard drive with a larger model without affecting my eSATA drive?*
You can do that with the MFSLive bootCD if you are still using the original, factory-installed TiVo drive. You cannot do this if the internal drive was previously upgraded. Note this capability is not yet supported in WinMFS, but it could be added in a future version. _Credit to spike2k5 for this answer_.​Lastly, does anyone have a guess on when the feature for winMFS is coming to combine a smaller HDD with an eSATA drive back into one, larger internal HDD?

Thanks again,
Brian


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## greg_burns

BrianL-WA said:


> I'm in the SLOW process of copying 300+GB of shows back to this rebuilt Tivo [btw--does anyhow have a link to where folks have done stats on expected file transfer times to<->from tivo's? the max i've been able to achieve is about 56MB/min, but sometimes as slow as 25MB/min...need that gigabit card, Tivo!]


A Tivo's network speeds are processor bottlenecked. Not sure a gigabit card would help. What you can do it PAUSE a recording, or tune to a channel you don't get. That will reduce the processor load which improves performance for other things (like networking).



BrianL-WA said:


> [*]Tivo #2: I havent begun a similar repair. However, i want to keep the eSATA drive i have and just replace the OEM HDD. I know posters in the past have referred me to the Official eSATA Drvie Expansion in 9.2 FAQ, and i found the reference below but i would be grateful is someone could actually reply back with the *specific* commans in MFSLive to do this?


Haven't done it myself, but can't you just use the command given using the ICG...
MFSLive Linux Boot CD ICG


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## BrianL-WA

Can someone post what the actual parameters would be for using the MFSLive ICG for the scenario above? ([original 160GB OEM HDD + WD 500GB eSata => new 1T HDD + WD 500 eSATA] to keep 100% of the programming as it exists today?

Thanks!
Brian


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## greg_burns

I would assume you would set up the parameters like so, but for the TivoHD (TCD652160) it is a no go.



> Tivo HD uses eSATA for 2nd drive. Currenlty, eSATA drive is not support.


Change it to a S3 (TCD648250B) and it works.


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## BrianL-WA

If you take out the Drive B in Step 2: "Your New Drive Setup" you get the following command line...but not sure this would work. Further, since there would only be 3 physical drives connected to the computer (SATA1 = OEM HDD, 160GB; SATA2 = WD eSATA 500GB extender; SATA3 = new 1TB HDD), would Drive B be set to the same physical drive? (ie, SATA2)

Your command:

backup -qTao - /dev/sda /dev/sdb | restore -s 128 -zpi - /dev/sdc

restore -r 4 is optional with MFSLive Linux Boot CD 1.3 or higher. Previous version w/ restore -r 2 for partition greater than 274GB bug has been fixed with MFSLive Linux Boot CD 1.3 or higher.

Series 3 uses Serial ATA (SATA) drive!
You will need MFSLive Linux Boot CD 1.3 or higher for this model./span>​Help & confused ...does anyone know to reach spike2k5 since it sounds like he is credited in the FAQ on this topic...

-Brian


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## darklyte

I apologize for this being a little long but I really need some help and thought the details would shed some light on what is going on with my Tivo. After having gone through a lot of steps and most of the troubleshooting suggested so far in this thread I could use some feedback or suggestions. 

I have a stock Series 3 tivo with 2 cable cards that is 2+ years old and started acting up about 2 weeks ago, and it is getting progressively worse. I've read all the pages on this thread and suspected the hard drive so already in the process of getting a replacement, but some of the newer issues make me wonder if it is not a cable card or other Tivo hardware issue.

1. The Tivo started to become sluggish and freeze, not responding to the remote and would reboot. This initially occurred when the Tivo was trying to record an HD show on both tuners.

2. The Tivo would then work fine if I only watched live HD on one tuner, but if I watched live HD shows on both tuners it would consistently lock up and reboot. To get out of the cycle of freezing and rebooting, I would have to remove the cable cards and change the channels to non-HD and then put the cards back in.

3. With the cable cards removed, I could (and still can) watch recorded shows including hd shows.

4. Reinserting both cards and any live HD shows would again start to freeze the machine regardless of whether I was watching a show or not. If I was in Tivo central the interface became jumpy and would freeze.

5. Two calls and troubleshooting with a Tivo CSR whose best advice was that it was a cable card issue as far as he could tell so get Time Warner in, and if that did not work I could send it back and get a replacement for $150.

6. Time Warner cable reps spent 4 hours (literally) trying to fix the issue, they replaced all the cable wire in my apartment, tested the signal, pinged the cards, etc. everything EXCEPT replacing the cards because they didn't bring any with them. Issue was not resolved and they suggested Tivo was the problem.

7. I tried Kickstart 57, 58 and 54, none of which had any impact or produced any error messages that I saw.

8. A week later I am running on only one cable card because 2 freezes the system. Watching any HD content on the one cable card will start the Tivo to slow down and freeze if I leave it on for more than a few seconds. 

9. The newest problem is that I have now lost most of my channels, I get basic channels and a few cable but many basic cable channels such as MTV, VH1, Toon, Comedy Central, etc. do not come in, just a black screen. 

10. Tuning into one of the channels that are not working will occassionally get an error message saying to call Time Warner to activate the card. Also got the error message "Failed to Load 'pod:///utils/PhoneHome.htm"

Up until #8 I was pretty positive a new internal HD would fix the issue, now I am wondering if it is a cable card issue or even worse, some larger scale Tivo hardware issue. I am confused that both cable cards now produce the same issues/errors, could both happen to go bad and have the same issues at the same time (i have swapped them both into slot 1 and they produce the same results)?

Another complicating factor is that I can't take time off to wait for Time Warner again, and they do not have any appointments on the next 2 weekends when I am available, meaning I could have a almost-non-working Tivo, plus no reception on most of my channels for at least 2 weeks so I am trying to figure out what is the best approach to getting this fixed ASAP and whether the feeling is if it is cable cards, hard drive or a bad tivo that needs to be replaced? If I wait for Time Warner for 2 weeks and I its not the cards, I have to get an new machine from TiVo which means I am out of luck until at least the 3rd week of December so getting really frustrated and would appreciate any advice on how to proceed.

Thanks in advance,
-Joe


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## richsadams

darklyte said:


> I apologize for this being a little long snip>


Based on your description, particularly 1 through 4, odds are it is the hard drive. However, if you can get your hands on two new cable cards before your new drive arrives I'd give that a shot. Cable cards can and do go bad. Cable card firmware upgrades can cause issues. New ones can be bad. Scientific Atlanta (SA) cable cards have a pretty long history of being problematic for forum members. Many cableco techs would just as soon blame TiVo as anything else; they have no vested interest in TiVo since they have their own DVR's, although it sounds like yours took some time to try and straighten things out. Why they didn't bring new cable cards with them is a mystery though. Sometimes if you press them and threaten to cancel their service (particularly for something else like FIOS) they'll magically come up with an opening in their schedule. Or there are the rare cable companies that will let you pick up cards from their office and install them yourself. It only requires slipping them in and calling in a couple of numbers easily found on the screen (instructions here).

That said, I'd still wager it's a failing hard drive. You didn't mention what kind of drive you're getting or your method of replacement (DIY or pre-imaged?). Ideally you're installing a larger drive.

If the new drive doesn't do it get new cable cards installed.

Good luck. Let us know what you end up doing to get things back in shape.


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## BrianL-WA

Darklyte,
I, like many on this thread, have nearly identical issues--while this may in fact turn out to be a massive defect of the Series 3 productline from Tivo, i have fixed one tivo exhibiting the same issues with a new HDD and in the process of fixing the second. Simple tests: i bought a new tivo HD and put in the suspected "defective cable cards" and everything worked fine--dont waste your cable providers time or yours away from work. Second test: the HDD when i took it out was dead--card-level diagnostics werent even reading the disk. Tivo may have purchased a (rather large) batch of bad WD AV-series OEM drives is my guess...

Good luck!
Brian


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## darklyte

Thanks Rich and Brian for the feedback. I have had a Tivo starting with a series one since '99 and this is the first time I have had such a major issue. I did have a HD go bad on a series 2 but that was obvious as it started clicking and then it would never get past the boot screen.

Until this week I was pretty sure it was the hard drive also as many other had seemed to have success with replacing it after similar issues. But when I stopped getting channels, combined with the cable card errors (on both cards) I started to get concerned that something else was amiss. 

I purchased the 1TB Western Digital WD10EVCS drive and am going to try and get that installed and see whether that clears up the issues or not.


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## richsadams

darklyte said:


> I purchased the 1TB Western Digital WD10EVCS drive and am going to try and get that installed and see whether that clears up the issues or not.


Sounds good. Let us know how it goes.


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## darklyte

The new hard drive fixed most of my initial issues. I can now watch Live HD shows on both cable cards at the same time without freezing or rebooting.

Unfortunately, I have yet to resolve the latest issues regarding the loss of channels. I still am not receiving most cable channels. Wondering if this is the improbable case of the hard drive and both cable cards going bad at the same time?


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## richsadams

darklyte said:


> The new hard drive fixed most of my initial issues. I can now watch Live HD shows on both cable cards at the same time without freezing or rebooting.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have yet to resolve the latest issues regarding the loss of channels. I still am not receiving most cable channels. Wondering if this is the improbable case of the hard drive and both cable cards going bad at the same time?


Good to hear things are working again...well done!

Now I'm wondering if your cable cards caused enough file corruption that your OEM hard drive wasn't able to recover. I'd certainly have your cable folks out to replace them ASAP.

I still wonder if my theory about the OEM drive's miniscule 2MB of cache is still to blame for I/O issues that a new drive with a larger cache is able to cope with. 

Thanks very much for reporting back. :up:


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## darklyte

Your theory on the small cache of the OEM drives makes sense. I can pretty much pinpoint the beginning of my problems when I forced a connection to download program data, minutes before my Tivo started recording 2 season pass high definition shows at the same time. This might have overwhelmed the I/O abilities of the drive (somehow in my case the cable cards appear to be a compounding issue) and pushed it over the edge to fail.. _either that or Gordan Ramsay hurt Tivo's feelings..._ About 5 minutes into the shows it began to freeze and it rebooted itself 3 or 4 times during that hour and was never the same since.

I have had my Series 3 since they came out and am a power user with a lot of season passes etc. I would expect this issue to really grow as the machines age while HD content and new features push the drives to their limits.

I find it annoying to be asked to pay $150 to replace a failed 250GB drive when I can get a 1TB drive easily installed for less. Does their $150 include S&H both ways? I accept some charge, but find this unreasonable, particularly considering how fast it is to do.

I am pretty tech savvy but was definitely apprehensive about opening up the machine. *For anyone reading this who is considering the drive upgrade*, it is extremely easy to do and the drive is easily accessed and removed/replaced in the machine. The software and the step by step guides available in this forum make it a piece of cake. I was really surprised at how quick and easy it was to do. If you know what a SATA Hard Drive is, and can install software on your computer, you can handle the upgrade.


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## bareyb

richsadams said:


> I still wonder if my theory about the OEM drive's miniscule 2MB of cache is still to blame for I/O issues that a new drive with a larger cache is able to cope with.


I think you are dead on about the small buffer. I just replaced the stock drive in one of my Series 3's that was "working perfectly" and has been for a couple of years. It's always had some glitches, especially when recording two shows at once. I had come to accept that as being a problem due to Comcast's poor signal.

I replaced the original drive in "TiVo 2" with a Hitachi Drive with a 32 meg buffer and began to notice immediately how problem free the recordings had all become. The menus also drew WAY faster (almost instantly for 4 pages of items) and there didn't seem to be any glitches in the video. No momentary dropouts. One show that seemed to be particularly bad was "Dancing with the Stars" on ABC. So I recorded the same show on both TiVo's. One with the new Hitachi Drive and one with the stock WD drive. Well guess what? Glitches on the stock drive unit and not a single hiccup on the TiVo with the new drive.

I must admit, I got a little jealous of the speed of the new drive on the kids TiVo and wanted to put one in my own S3. I ended up buying another Hitachi Drive and installed it last week using WINMFS. Now "TiVo 1" is completely glitch free. I recorded the "Dancing with the Stars" Finale last night on both TiVos and neither TiVo had a glitch. More importantly, when I replay last weeks show from the _new_ Hard Drive it is also glitch free. So whatever problems that were there are gone now.

Does this prove anything? Not really, but it does seem to lend some credence to the idea that many of the little problems we are seeing might be related to the stock WD drives they used in the Series 3's. My gut feeling (and I agree with Rich on this) is that the buffer on them is simply too small. Replacing the stock drive is a cheap and fun project and if it doesn't work out, you can always put the stock drive back in. Of course, if it works, you will be in 1 TB heaven. With Spikes new windows based software and BKDTV's fabulous FAQ anyone who is even slightly tech savvy can do this. We all owe these guys a huge debt of gratitude. This is beyond cool.  :up:


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## madneon

BareyB I hear ya I went through the "send back the S3 tivo game" twice b4 I figured ( with the help of the folks here) that it was the WD hard drives I finally replaced my WD drive with a seagate 500GB 7200RPM *SATA DVR Drive ST3500830SCE* I just finished installing the same drive in my New HD tivo I am now convinced that its the OEM WD drives that come stock in these things I mean I got my replacement S3 this year and the Manuf. date of the OEM drive was Jul 06.....what was the drive up to those 2 years...apparently alot it died on me within 7 days of getting my 3rd replacement s3 tivo..


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## darklyte

My Tivo is finally back up and running after managing to get a canceled appointment slot at the last minute. After 3+ hours wasting time in my apt, Time-Warner finally admitted that both cards were bad and replaced them. Don't know why both times they showed up they refused to even consider the cards as bad, despite obvious card error messages. 

Looks as though both the cable cards and hard drive began failing at the same time. I wonder if the cable cards had something to do with the HD going bad? or vice-versa? Seems too much of a coincidence that hardware would fail at the same time for unrelated reasons.


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## bareyb

darklyte said:


> Looks as though both the cable cards and hard drive began failing at the same time. I wonder if the cable cards had something to do with the HD going bad? or vice-versa? Seems too much of a coincidence that hardware would fail at the same time for unrelated reasons.


My money is on the hard drive causing problems with the cards or at least made it appear the cards were faulty when they were probably fine. I think a lot of good cards have gone back to the cable company as defective when in fact the problems were being caused by the people pairing the cards or TiVo's with failing hard drives or some other malfunction in the installation. I'd bet once you get your drive replaced you'd be able to put back in the same cards and they'd work fine.


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## TheGrossman

Hello everyone.
This is my first post so please bear with me. I too have been having problems with my S3 for the last few weeks. It started with constant reboots, which have lessened to some extent, but pixellation and lockup problems continue. I thought that it might be the cable cards so I tried removing one, then the other, but problems remained. Problems are much worse on HD channels that SD channels. I've since removed both cable cards and hooked the Tivo up to an antenna and still have problems, especially with HD channels. I've tried kickstart 54 and it passed all tests on the original hard drive, but got "no support" on the external drive (Seagate 750GB DB35 drive and Antec MX-1 case with recommended cable) as expected. Kickstart 57 didn't seem to do anything and kickstart 52 didn't also. It was working a little bit better this morning, but has started to lockup and reboot again. Anyway here's my question. My original drive is much older than my external drive and after reading through many posts on this forum I'd like to try and replace it first, using WinMFS to copy everything over to a new drive (if there aren't too many bad sectors). I realize that if I upgrade the original hard drive I won't be able to use it with my current external drive without starting over. But what is considered to be an upgrade? Is a new Seagate 250GB drive an upgrade because it is a different brand than the original drive and has a larger cache or is it okay because it is the same 250GB size as the original? It's getting hard to find the original drive with it's 2MB cache. I realize that this might not work anyway, but at least I could then try instant cake on the new 250 GB Seagate drive and try out the Tivo without the external drive to see if everything works okay. Then I could add the external drive (assuming that Tivo recognizes the new drive as not being upgraded) and if the Tivo then starts acting up then it's obviously the external drive that's causing the problems, which is still under warranty. Any other ideas?
Thanks much for any and all help than you can supply!!


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## greg_burns

TheGrossman said:


> Anyway here's my question. My original drive is much older than my external drive and after reading through many posts on this forum I'd like to try and replace it first, using WinMFS to copy everything over to a new drive (if there aren't too many bad sectors). I realize that if I upgrade the original hard drive I won't be able to use it with my current external drive without starting over.


I didn't have any luck myself upgrading my internal to 1TB and keeping my 500GB external using WinMFS. (Although, I was under the impression it was suppose to work using WinMFS...) Looking in the FAQ it says it is doable using MFSLive bootCD though.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784
Section III #18
*Can I upgrade the built-in hard drive with a larger model without affecting my eSATA drive?*

_You can do that with the MFSLive bootCD if you are still using the original, factory-installed TiVo drive. You cannot do this if the internal drive was previously upgraded. Note this capability is not yet supported in WinMFS, but it could be added in a future version. Credit to spike2k5 for this answer._


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## BrianL-WA

Greg,
I too am wanting (needing really!) to migrate my 2nd Tivo HD that is OEM + 500GB WD Expander to a new 1TB drive...I followed up with Spike on that FAQ #18 and here is the reply i received--unfortunately, i've not been able to get some questions clarified if this is the actual command line to merge both drives onto the new 1TB drive or not? Anyone familiar with the Lunix command line to know the expected outcome from this?

_Attach original internal, eSATA drive, new 1TB drive to a PC.
Boot up w/ mfslive linux cd

backup -qTao - /dev/sda /dev/sdb | restore -s 128 -r 4 -zi - /dev/sdc

where /dev/sda is your internal drive, /dev/sdb is eSATA, /dev/sdc is your new 1 TB drive.

after that if you want to expand the rest of 1TB,
hook up your 1TB drive to WinMFS,

Wnmfs->tools->mfsadd

That should expand your 1TB fully.​_


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## greg_burns

Looks like it should merge the two drives into one to me. Want to be very careful that you have the sda, sdb and sdc pointing to the proper drives. 

If you have the drive letters right, you have nothing to loose since you will boot up with just the 1TB only. You can always go back if it doesn't work for some reason.


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## drillerboy

I use my Tivo 3 with an over the air antenna and added a 1TB external hard drive awhile back and all was well until recently I started having the same problem I read about here with the Tivo responding to the remote a couple three times and then you would have to wait a bit and maybe you could get one or two responses, then it would lock up again for awhile.

Someone suggested changing the batteries on the remote. Ha Ha. Well that was the problem, I never would have guessed it, and I thought I was a sophisticated user and aspiring hacker of electronic devices. 

A million thanks to someone; this has been driving us nuts.


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## rreznikoff

richsadams said:


> I'd contact Comcast and have them re-hit your cards and/or replace them...sounds like they are the root of all evil for you.


I have a Series 3 HDTV DVR and I recently started having the same problem. It boots repeatedly before completely finishing the last reboot. I can't get to the Main Menu. The machine is 4 months old and Tivo support is sending a refurb unit and charging $49.00. If I could cure the problem before the replacement unit arrives, I'll refuse to accept the replacement and hopefully save the $49.00 fee, I have tried fixes 57, 58, and 52. I am using a dual cable card from Charter Cable. Do you think they can reset the cable card to cure the problem? Anything else?


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## richsadams

rreznikoff said:


> I am using a dual cable card from Charter Cable. Do you think they can reset the cable card to cure the problem? Anything else?


To see if it makes a difference, disconnect the coax cable and try a hard reboot (unplug TiVo, wait about 10 seconds and then plug it back in). If it starts up fine it could be the cable card, tuner or it could be a hard drive issue.

You can certainly call your cable company and ask them to reinitialize your cable card. It may or may not fix the problem. If it doesn't I'd go ahead and accept the new unit.

Best of luck!


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## rreznikoff

After unplugging the cable and doing a hard boot, it cured the problem of rebooting.

I had previously contacted TIVO, searched this forum, contacted support at Charter, and nowhere did I find the answer that you provided.

My sincerest thanks!


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## richsadams

rreznikoff said:


> After unplugging the cable and doing a hard boot, it cured the problem of rebooting.
> 
> I had previously contacted TIVO, searched this forum, contacted support at Charter, and nowhere did I find the answer that you provided.
> 
> My sincerest thanks!


Hey...we're here to help! Donations to your local ASPCA are reward enough.  Glad to hear things are good in TiVoLand again. :up:


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## tigo219

Hey there-

After a long wait, exchanging the box, getting TWC to come out and re-authorize the cable cards, my series 3 seems to be A-OK (knock on wood). Just in time to watch NetFlix movies on it!

Thanks for the information again.

-Tim



richsadams said:


> Not likely. It does sound like a faulty tuner. If it happens with your new box, then I'd be more inclined to think that it's a cable card issue. Per a number of posts over the years here, techs can go through a half-dozen or more cable cards before they get one that works. Scientific Atlanta (SA) cable cards seem to be the worst...Motorola cards seem to have far less trouble.
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## richsadams

tigo219 said:


> Hey there-
> 
> After a long wait, exchanging the box, getting TWC to come out and re-authorize the cable cards, my series 3 seems to be A-OK (knock on wood). Just in time to watch NetFlix movies on it!
> 
> Thanks for the information again.
> 
> -Tim


Woo hoo! :up:


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## BrianL-WA

I've followed Spike's instructions from my prior posting a few weeks back to use mfslive linux CD to run 'backup' to transfer the recordings from my (failing) original Tivo HD 160GB HDD + attached 500GB eSATA drive to a new 1TB HDD and then use WinMFS to expand the rest of the 1TB.

_backup -qTao - /dev/sda /dev/sdb | restore -s 128 -r 4 -zi - /dev/sdc​_However, when i start the Tivo HD it tells me that an unknown external device is attached and wants to 'divorce' this drive to continue. I do the thumbs-down 3x and then restart, but each time the Tivo prompts me to do this.

Please help! How do i force a 'divorce' on my tivo so i can begin using the new drive? (hopefully with all the original programming).

Thanks,
Brian


----------



## raulbenavides

I had the same problem develop: bulletproof series 3 with no probs for 2 years and 2 months (original HD, pure OTA antenna) then started freezing during programming,and last night the worst: reboot, progress through THX, TIvo guy screen, freeze on menu... then reboot, and repeat.

I thought it was a hard drive issue, of course, like a good TIVO user, and not software, but I unplugged the antenna and immediately the TIVO worked like new!!!!! Able to watch all recorded content, podcasts, and amazon.com downloads, menus speedy, nothing at to suggest any residual hardware probs.

However, plugin the antenna and start watching HD, and freezes happen. It even lasts on SD programming for awhile, but start recording, and it slows down tremendously. 

Reasonable deduction: recent software "upgrades" are so buggy that they freeze the system even with routine ATSC decoding and recording, or analog to digital translation for recording.


----------



## greg_burns

raulbenavides said:


> Reasonable deduction: recent software "upgrades" are so buggy that they freeze the system even with routine ATSC decoding and recording, or analog to digital translation for recording.


If you can watch previous recorded program, then perhaps that portion of the disk is ok. When you plug in cable or antenna it has something to record and it may be trying to use a portion of the disk that is having problems.

TivoJerry posted  something very similar to this theory awhile back.


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## richsadams

raulbenavides said:


> Reasonable deduction: recent software "upgrades" are so buggy that they freeze the system even with routine ATSC decoding and recording, or analog to digital translation for recording.


Sorry to hear that you're having problems...very frustrating. I have to agree with Greg, it's probably a hard drive issue. TiVo hard drives are subject to I/O data issues when writing to problematic areas (bad sectors). Simply being able to operate TiVo normally and watch existing recordings really has nothing to do with data being processed by other parts of the hard drive when an antenna or cable feed are attached.

If the recent software upgrade were the problem, it would be a problem for everyone and clearly it is not. As stated many times in many places now and over the past many years, software upgrades invariably reveal hard drive problems for some folks. Hard drives fail...just a fact of life. Since TiVo HDD's are running 24/7 and Series3's, TiVo HD's, etc. are processing a large amount of data (HD programming, broadband downloads, etc.) it's not surprising that their lifespan is cut a bit short (short of the 3 year warranty WD HDD's have on their bare drives in any case.)

You could try running Kickstart 54 to determine if there are problems with the drive as well as KS57 and/or KS58 to see if TiVo can rectify things on it's own. Or you could pull the drive and run a regular diagnostic program such as WD's Lifeguard.

The issue you're seeing is not uncommon and is more than likely a failing hard drive though. You could have TiVo replace the box for $149. Or you could buy a pre-imaged drive from DVRUpgrade and pop it in.

If you're up for a DIY fix, a visit to the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky thread is in order. Even though it started out as an eSATA drive thread, it has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section III, #30 covers internal upgrades.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


----------



## raulbenavides

greg_burns said:


> If you can watch previous recorded program, then perhaps that portion of the disk is ok. When you plug in cable or antenna it has something to record and it may be trying to use a portion of the disk that is having problems.
> 
> TivoJerry posted  something very similar to this theory awhile back.


I would agree with that if not for the fact that during this time, all my TivoCast podcasts (CNET, NY TIMES) have downloaded to the hard drive without a hitch (I should have mentioned that!) during the exact same time the LIve TV recordings were failing.

I have told amazon to send two to three hours of programming to my TIVO, if there are any bad sectors, it should show up while watching those shows (damn, that means I have to watch that SI Swimsuit issue special all over again, curse you TIVO). I will also run the various kickstarts, and if it reports an issue I will gladly replace the HD.

I'll report back later, to be honest I'm surprised my 4 or 5 (?) year old series 2 HD hasn't kicked it. However, even with the workload, this is a pretty early death for any modern HD, but not unheard of.

I've replaced bad memory and HD's plenty of times in computers, however my problem is: A) I'm not going to give TIVO 150 bucks to randomly troubleshoot a possible bad HD without kickstart absolutely saying "it's fried" B) in computers, I periodically reformat my HD's upon slowdowns to allow the computer to map and isolate bad sectors, and reload your OS fresh and fast. I have literally never had to "ditch" a faltering HD after this process. TIVO gives you no (vendor supported/legal) equivalent. The problem is that HD's ONLY with some BAD sectors are not "replaced", as you know, to me that's just a line to part you with $150, you just force the OS to MAP and avoid those bad sectors.

Now, you can DIY of course, but then it is not 'vendor supported' and that's a quick 'we can't help' you from the CS phone line later down the line with a legitimate issue they should rectify.

If you are a registered owner, you should have access to a free disk image or be able to cheaply purchase a formatting utility to place on a USB stick. (I know everyone agrees with that, I just thought I'd point that out!)


----------



## greg_burns

raulbenavides said:


> I will also run the various kickstarts, and if it reports an issue I will gladly replace the HD.


If you have access to a PC, I would suggest running the WD or Hitachi (your choice) diagnostics on the drive as well. I just have more faith in those tests than the built in Tivo ones. Just my opinion.

I've never ran across a drive that failed those diagnostics (and I've seen many in PCs/laptops) that could be fixed by a simple reformatting. Not saying you can't, but usually one it starts failing its all downhill from there.


----------



## greg_burns

raulbenavides said:


> B) in computers, I periodically reformat my HD's upon slowdowns to allow the computer to map and isolate bad sectors, and reload your OS fresh and fast. I have literally never had to "ditch" a faltering HD after this process.


That sounds more like software bit rot than a HD problem. What tests did you do to determine you actually had bad sectors on those slow computers?


----------



## raulbenavides

I don't want to sound like I am dismissing that the hard drive could be bad in ways even Kickstarting could miss.

I appreciate any comments add, as I know everyone is just trying to be helpful b/c we all LOVE TIVO!

I'm just frustrated because on a computer is goes like this:

"damn I hope the HD isn't bad, computers damn slow"

reformat drive
IF better: reinstall your backup, lost only time


if: still slow
use software to diagnose HD troubles.
If corrects, re-reinstall OS. 
May have to ditch your backup if also corrupted, but still FREE, lost only tme

IF HD still bad: "Dammit, HD is dead, but I know it's not salvagable"
proceed to BB, purchase new, bigger, faster HD.

--

With TIVO, it goes like this:

"why is my TIVO slow?"
CS rep: "well, probably your hard drive, send us 150 and we'll replace it"
"how do I trouble shoot do make sure I don't have replace a part"
CSR: "Send it to us, we'll replace the hard drive"


----------



## raulbenavides

greg_burns said:


> That sounds more like software bit rot than a HD problem. What tests did you do to determine you actually had bad sectors on those slow computers?


Sure, I'll admit that spontaneous corruption could have occurred and been the majority of the problem. I used to purchase diagnostic progs, but these days, I'm a little minimalist, (and cheap!) If I have trouble with a HD (the last was lock up at boot, corruptions of new and old written data, etc, etc.) I purchase a new, much bigger HD, reformat the old one, move all the contents to the new hard drive, and use the old HD as a scratch drive, for media/downloads/etc/ so it gets use but not mission critical, and monitor it for failures. To this day, i've only removed HD's because they were just to damn small to justify.

Could there not have been any bad sectors, sure, but, correct me if I'm wrong, the modern formatting process maps and blocks BAD sectors as preventative maintenance.

That's what I'd like to perform as at the least a troubleshoot step.


----------



## raulbenavides

greg_burns said:


> If you have access to a PC, I would suggest running the WD or Hitachi (your choice) diagnostics on the drive as well. I just have more faith in those tests than the built in Tivo ones. Just my opinion.
> 
> I've never ran across a drive that failed those diagnostics (and I've seen many in PCs/laptops) that could be fixed by a simple reformatting. Not saying you can't, but usually one it starts failing its all downhill from there.


Oh, I *completely* agree. Any major problems with the platter and you have to replace. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I felt you can fix *those* with a reformatting.

I was only referring to isolated bad sectors that can be mapped and avoided. I have not used many utilities in awhile but not too long ago programs could graphically display good sectors with lets say green and red for bad sectors it indentified and I guess "closed off" for lack of better words.

Are things different now (I'm actually asking)

As that's good advice, I'll run the diagnostics from my PC.


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## richsadams

raulbenavides said:


> I was only referring to isolated bad sectors that can be mapped and avoided. I have not used many utilities in awhile but not too long ago programs could graphically display good sectors with lets say green and red for bad sectors it indentified and I guess "closed off" for lack of better words.
> 
> Are things different now (I'm actually asking)
> 
> As that's good advice, I'll run the diagnostics from my PC.


KS57 and KS58 are designed to isolate bad sectors and remap the drive. They aren't fool proof by any means though.

The Hitachi and WD diagnostics will give you good graphical details. The only "pro" diagnostic program that I know of is SpinRite. They specifically claim to be able to "repair" TiVo hard drives. But at $89, why waste the money? An equal replacement HDD costs less and for a little more you can go up to 1TB.

I understand the desire to make what you have work, but to me it's an easy choice. If I'm going to take the time to pull a drive and mess around with connecting it to a PC, run diagnostics, etc., etc. I might as well save some time and worrying if it will fail later and just put a new one back in. New HDD's (w/quadruple the recording space) aren't that expensive, they will usually solve all the issues you're seeing (and more) and once installed you've basically got a new TiVo. But that's just me. 

If by the off chance that it is something else, the choices are narrowed to returning it to TiVo for an exchange or buying a new one.

Let us know how you get on.


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## raulbenavides

richsadams said:


> I understand the desire to make what you have work, but to me it's an easy choice. If I'm going to take the time to pull a drive and mess around with connecting it to a PC, run diagnostics, etc., etc. I might as well save some time and worrying if it will fail later and just put a new one back in. New HDD's (w/quadruple the recording space) aren't that expensive, they will usually solve all the issues you're seeing (and more) and once installed you've basically got a new TiVo. But that's just me.


I will probably have to replace HD as a troubleshooting step.

BUT, my original drive is now corrupted with bad sectors, so I don't have a source drive. What sources do I have for obtaining Series 3 HD disk images to format a new drive with

ACTUALLY, I'd like to try reformatting the original drive with a good master as a last ditch troubleshooting effort, so a good master would be excellent.

BTW, I tried rebooting and holding pause to initiate kickstart 57:

plug in S3, hold pause on remote.

series 3 shows powering on, all colored lights on.
then screen blank, and only orange light on for about 1-2 seconds as I frantically press 5 then 7 on remote, but no GSOD, just normal boot sequence, retried several times

What am I doing wrong?

Yours frantically


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## richsadams

raulbenavides said:


> I will probably have to replace HD as a troubleshooting step.
> 
> BUT, my original drive is now corrupted with bad sectors, so I don't have a source drive. What sources do I have for obtaining Series 3 HD disk images to format a new drive with
> 
> ACTUALLY, I'd like to try reformatting the original drive with a good master as a last ditch troubleshooting effort, so a good master would be excellent.
> 
> BTW, I tried rebooting and holding pause to initiate kickstart 57:
> 
> plug in S3, hold pause on remote.
> 
> series 3 shows powering on, all colored lights on.
> then screen blank, and only orange light on for about 1-2 seconds as I frantically press 5 then 7 on remote, but no GSOD, just normal boot sequence, retried several times
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Yours frantically


You can get a fresh copy of the image with Instant Cake. You could use it on the OEM and/or a new HDD. The only downside of using IC as opposed to the OEM drive's image is that you'll need to have your cableco re-hit your cable cards and run Guided Setup, set up Season Passes, etc.

Regarding KS57, after rebooting hold the pause button until all of the front lights come on and then just the yellow light stays on, let go of the pause button and then press the numbers 5 and then 7 on the remote. You have about 10 seconds to do that. You actually only need to push pause and then enter 5-7 when the yellow light is on and the Welcome...powering up screen shows. But that happens fairly quickly so holding down the pause button from the time you plug TiVo back in is the best way to do it. That said, if the boot partition is corrupted it may or may not work.

Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## aloelel

I just ordered a 750gig last few weeks that was preloaded and is plug and play for it. If I have another issue with it I will never buy another Tivo again and I'll go back to my series 2 until that dies and be fully done with Tivo. 

I love Tivo, but after seeing this thread, it only makes me more angry that they haven't sent a fix out or understood that 2mb on the disc is way to minimal...


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## JimWall

Unfortunately the I/O needed to write 2 HD shows to the HDD is far greater than the I/O rate for downloading anything throught the internet. So it can still be a HDD problem but not a bad sector problem. In the past I have wondered if the I/O error rate on part of the drive triggers the SATA interface to drop down to a lower speed which cannot handle the I/O needed to record video. So TIVO times out and reboots. Tivo software does not have a way to force it back to the highest speed. Windows XP had this problem and addressed it with XP SP2. I have replaced a 1 TB TIVO drive with same problems you are having and new drive solved the problems. Then I reformatted the "bad" drive in windows to get the interface reset to fastest and then used it successfully to upgrade a different TIVO HD.


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## raulbenavides

I have an amazon account for downloads of tv shows, etc. With a new drive, will I have any troubles linking that amazon.com account to the S3 again?


Jim, greg, and rich: After personal experience and my new education, I have to agree buggy software updates are likely not the culprit, and that its the hardware. Just not hardware 'failure' per se, but poor choices at the OEM level HD wise (the buffer theory just feels right!), in addition to software that is not robust enough to handle errors (as Jim pointed out with a (possibly) analogous error in windows fixed in SP2). 

I'm probably going to format and instantcake the oem to (hopefully) get a cheap instant "ah hah!" and get HD back that night, then regardless soon get a new drive with a nice fat buffer. Either way I'll gain a TB of storage in the process!:up:

I'll post back to add to the little 'knowledge base' we have going here!


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## Sprk Jonz

I'm having the same issues as described. Crashing, freezing, reboots, drag, etc. I've gone back and forth between Tivo support, Tivo cable card support and my cable company for multiple cards. No luck.

It seemed that the issue was isolated when I was able to use just an OTA antenna or basic cable. As soon as I added a 2nd source for tuning my Tivo Series 3 freaked out. I've had Tivo tell me I had to send the unit in and pay $150 for a new one. I had Tivo say it was definitely the cards. I performed a kickstart 57 and things seem to be a little better...

Now I'm stuck with cable cards that won't authorize (DVR diagnostics says 'general tuning error'). Time Warner is coming on Wednesday (what else would you do with your vacation time?).

Long story short: My Tivo is 100% stable with crappy cable cards or any other source. If I watch recorded content or if I stick with SD channels, all is peachy. The only time things go to hell is when I change to live HD programming. Therefore, I think Jim's I/O rate theory is the best idea for what is happening. I don't think it's the tuner, nor the drive itself. I hope Tivo is reading and considering this as a solution. I'm disillusioned to say the least. One software update, so many people impacted by the same issues, and still no 'official' solution?

I'm 2 days away from sending my box in and paying $150 for a refurb. If it's the drive, the tuner, whatever, I'm covered with "new" equipment. But if it's cards it will be for nothing. If it's a drive setting, I will have wasted time and money. 

I appreciate all of the dialogue - please keep it coming and let me know if anyone else has some great ideas for troubleshooting or if anyone wholeheartedly believes I should just send it in now. Also, are there any opinions on my timing of card troubleshooting with the cable company before or after getting the refurb?


----------



## richsadams

JimWall said:


> Unfortunately the I/O needed to write 2 HD shows to the HDD is far greater than the I/O rate for downloading anything throught the internet. So it can still be a HDD problem but not a bad sector problem. In the past I have wondered if the I/O error rate on part of the drive triggers the SATA interface to drop down to a lower speed which cannot handle the I/O needed to record video. So TIVO times out and reboots. Tivo software does not have a way to force it back to the highest speed. Windows XP had this problem and addressed it with XP SP2. I have replaced a 1 TB TIVO drive with same problems you are having and new drive solved the problems. Then I reformatted the "bad" drive in windows to get the interface reset to fastest and then used it successfully to upgrade a different TIVO HD.


That's an interesting theory and not unreasonable. Since most issues are almost always addressed by replacing the OEM hard drive with anything that had more than the OEM's miniscule 2MB's of cache, I postulated the inadequate buffer theory a few upgrades ago.

It does seem that if it is an I/O error/speed issue that the same thing would happen after replacing the HDD though and that doesn't seem to be the case. But I'm open to anything that makes sense.


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## cogx

Sprk Jonz said:


> I'm 2 days away from sending my box in and paying $150 for a refurb. If it's the drive, the tuner, whatever, I'm covered with "new" equipment. But if it's cards it will be for nothing. If it's a drive setting, I will have wasted time and money.
> 
> I appreciate all of the dialogue - please keep it coming and let me know if anyone else has some great ideas for troubleshooting or if anyone wholeheartedly believes I should just send it in now. Also, are there any opinions on my timing of card troubleshooting with the cable company before or after getting the refurb?


I posted a couple months ago about my ordeal with my S3 that one day was working perfectly and then the next it was freezing up for a few seconds at a time and by the next day it was all but unusable, unless I disconnected the OTA antenna and the cable feed (no cable cards). I was able to watch all my record shows and/or download them to my PC with TiVo Desktop, with no input source connected, but as soon as I would connect either OTA or cable, the freezing started up again.

Doing the quick HDD tests didn't report drive errors, but doing the kickstart 54 "extended test" overnight gave me "Fail (read element)" at 55%. When I finally decided to try to replace the drive, rather than send in for a refurb, I put the original TiVo HDD in a Dell system and ran the full diagnostics and the full sector test gave me back an "Error code: 0F00:0232 - Timeout waiting for IRQ" error at 60% (when I tried to restart the test, my entire PC locked up so that I had to do a forced hard reboot). I decided at that point, it had to be the HDD as the source of the problem.

I replaced the drive with a WD AV-GP 500GB model WD5000AVVS, first using the Hitachi Feature Tool boot CD to set the AAM value to 128, and all has been well thus far.


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## raulbenavides

cogx said:


> I replaced the drive with a WD AV-GP 500GB model WD5000AVVS, first using the Hitachi Feature Tool boot CD to set the AAM value to 128, and all has been well thus far.


What is this feature that is available on Hitachi drives, and should I favor those drives when considering purchase?


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## Sprk Jonz

cogx said:


> Doing the quick HDD tests didn't report drive errors, but doing the kickstart 54 "extended test" overnight gave me "Fail (read element)" at 55%.


Thanks, COGX. I ran the kickstart 54 SMART tests and it failed on the extended test as well (Fail 7). I think I'm in the same boat you were in.

It seems so odd that so many other people are having this same problem after the update. It's also strange that I can still watch all content on my Tivo, record standard def, and watch content via Netflix without any issues. However, I can't argue with the disc error, can I?

Although I like to play with PCs and can swap a drive easily, I think I'll be sending my Series 3 out for a refurb - in the interest of time and for future Tivo support.


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## richsadams

raulbenavides said:


> What is this feature that is available on Hitachi drives, and should I favor those drives when considering purchase?


The Hitachi Feature Tool is a small computer utility software program that will do a number of things for most any brand of hard drive except Seagate.

The reason folks use it here is to adjust the automatic acoustic management (AAM) on non-DVR dedicated hard drives. Most hard drives are made for regular computer use and can be somewhat noisy. By adjusting the acoustic management (specifically "seek acoustics") to a lower number the drive will be a bit quieter when working inside of TiVo. Typically a normal hard drive may have the AAM set to 260 or 280 but can usually be adjusted down to about 128.

DVR dedicated hard drives such as Western Digital's AV/GP series (WD10EVCS for expample) are already "acoustically tuned" for quietness and need no further acoustic adjustments.

Seagate drives do not allow acoustic adjustments. However their DB35 line of hard drives are designed for DVR use and are very quiet.

More information can be found on the Official eSATA Drive Expansion: FAQ + Discussion sticky thread. Even though it started out as an eSATA drive thread, it has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section III, #30 covers internal upgrades.


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## richsadams

Sprk Jonz said:


> It seems so odd that so many other people are having this same problem after the update. It's also strange that I can still watch all content on my Tivo, record standard def, and watch content via Netflix without any issues. However, I can't argue with the disc error, can I?


Again, it's not at all odd or strange for some folks to experience hard drive problems after a software update. Until there is an attempt to write data to the part of the drive that has problems everything will run fine. Once data is written to that area, the problem will be apparent.

TiVo software is written to two separate boot partitions on the hard drive with one being current and the other being available for the next update. When an update is issued it is written to the available partition which is made current or "swapped". When the update is written to a section of the drive that has bad sectors or causes the drive to begin writing to an area that has bad sectors the problem becomes evident.

Being able to watch existing recordings only indicates that the respective data is written to a fully functional part of the drive.

Historically every TiVo software update has drawn complaints about hard drive problems and failures. v11.0 is no different and based on posts on the TCF, this one is about average.


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## jwest03

I purchased a Series 3 HD TiVo around early October. This was my third TiVo for my house, the other two are Series 2. I have not had a single problem with the other two (both are Toshiba). My Series 3 has been nothing but problematic since I got it. I have scoured the internet for what's causing my problems and how to fix it, but nothing has worked so far. Here are the problems I have...

1. The unit will randomly reboot. It doesn't matter if the unit is on or in standby (I can always tell it occurred overnight if both tuners are set to the same channel the next morning). The unit could go a week before a random reboot or it could happen three times a day. It has nothing to do with watching HD channels, I went a week without watching or recording anything in HD and it still rebooted 4 times that week.

2. The unit will occasionally lock up / freeze after changing the channel, pulling up the guide, or hitting the TiVo button. Sometimes it will stay frozen for 2 minutes and then be fine, other times I have to physically unplug the system.

3. The unit will display a black screen for all channels. If I try to rewind the program, the black screen will stay there and the time bar will stay at the current (real life) time. If I skip back to the start of the program, it works normally until a random time, at which point the screen freezes. I can jump to the start of the program again or jump to the end of the program (where the black screen returns). When this occurs, any and every channel I tune to experiences this same problem, while previously recorded shows do not. This problem eventually works itself out, causes a reboot to occur (if I keep fiddling with it), or I force a reboot through the menu.

4. The unit will freeze while fast forwarding near the end of a program. For a 60 minute show, I can't use Fast Forward x2 or x3 after the 45 minute mark, or else the TiVo will freeze (either at the end of the show or after I hit play). Sometimes this will freeze the whole unit and I'll have to force a reboot, other times it forces a reboot on its own.

I have run KS57, 58, and 52 (in that order) to see if that would help. They showed no errors to the hard drive and they did not remedy the problem. I experienced no problems for the first few days, then the unit had back to back reboots within a 4 hour time frame.

Even out of the box, this unit suffered these problems, even before I installed any cable cards. But, I wanted to double check. I have two Scientific Atlanta cable cards (which are actually the 10th and 13th cards that were installed) through Time Warner. I read online these may be faulty, so I completely removed them and re-ran Guided Setup. Once again, the problem seemed better for a few days, but then the system started rebooting and freezing again. This, in my mind, ruled out that the cable cards were faulty, seeing as how problems persisted whether they were installed or not AND they showed no other cable card problems (loss of channels and such).

I called TiVo support after I ran all my "tests" and did my due diligence. TiVo passed the buck onto the cable cards, which I explained had no bearing on the problem. I suggested a hard drive problem, they suggested the Kickstarts, which I already ran a few times. Outside of shipping them the unit to fix/replace (which I refuse to do after a terrible TiVo / Humax experience with a faulty unit... I have ZERO faith in TiVo fixing anything, which usually just means shipping a refurbished unit back to me with seemingly no quality checks), they had no other suggestions.

My question to everyone on this forum... What is wrong with my TiVo? Could it be a power supply problem causing random reboots? Could it be an overheating problem (the unit is well ventilated but perhaps something inside is faulty) causing random lock ups? Could the hard drive be bad (perhaps the 2MB buffer is to blame)?

I'm personally leading to a hard drive problem (as that's what seems to be the most common suggestion to fix problems on this board). But if I'm about to void my warranty (as crappy as it is to begin with) and spend a couple hundred dollars, I want to exhaust every other possibility first. Thanks in advance for the help =D.


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## richsadams

jwest03 said:


> My question to everyone on this forum... What is wrong with my TiVo? Could it be a power supply problem causing random reboots? Could it be an overheating problem (the unit is well ventilated but perhaps something inside is faulty) causing random lock ups? Could the hard drive be bad (perhaps the 2MB buffer is to blame)?


Welcome to the forum...sorry it's under such aggravating circumstances.

All of the symptoms you've described would lead me to believe that your TiVo has had a faulty hard drive since day one. I would have returned it immediately. But since you've had it for a while you might as well fix it by upgrading it with a new hard drive. If you're comfortable connecting a hard drive to a computer a DIY 1TB hard drive upgrade would run you maybe $115 and an hour on a Saturday afternoon.

A visit to the Official eSATA Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ sticky thread is in order. It has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section V covers internal upgrades. The process is very simple.

Or you could purchase a pre-imaged hard drive from one of the third-party vendors like DVRUPgrade.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## cogx

jwest03 said:


> I have run KS57, 58, and 52 (in that order) to see if that would help. They showed no errors to the hard drive and they did not remedy the problem. I experienced no problems for the first few days, then the unit had back to back reboots within a 4 hour time frame.


It is almost certainly a bad hard drive, but you should still run the KS 54 "extended test" (90 minutes) and if that doesn't return an error, run the "overnight test: seek/read, random locations" and see what error comes up.
I would be shocked if you get through both of those tests without a hard drive error.


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## jwest03

cogx said:


> It is almost certainly a bad hard drive, but you should still run the KS 54 "extended test" (90 minutes) and if that doesn't return an error, run the "overnight test: seek/read, random locations" and see what error comes up.
> I would be shocked if you get through both of those tests without a hard drive error.


I ran every option on KS54, including extended and overnight tests, and everything "passed." But, I believe I read something somewhere that said TiVo's built in disk checker isn't that great and a bad hard drive can pass its tests and still be faulty. But, correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I am experiencing a new problem, which I will call TiVo aobut tomorrow... I was watching Two and a Half Men on a 3 minute delay and my TiVo went "dead." It was completely unresponsive, no image or sound, and my green "on" light is blinking. I removed the power cord and it's going through the boot up sequence now.

Has anyone ever experienced this? Does a blinking green light indicate anything? I can't find any clarification of it in any of my TiVo manuals. Like I said, I'll call TiVo tomorrow to see what it means. Hopefully it means the hard drive is bad and I'll just drop a new one in.

EDIT: I have found some information on the blinking green light (on this forum specifically). It doesn't look good. Rich, you posted in some of the other topics about the blinking green light... Have you heard anything about whether it is tuner or hard drive related? You mentioned something saying it could be either of those, just wondering if you've had any follow ups. I don't have time to read all the posts, just thought I'd ask about it directly.


----------



## richsadams

jwest03 said:


> I ran every option on KS54, including extended and overnight tests, and everything "passed." But, I believe I read something somewhere that said TiVo's built in disk checker isn't that great and a bad hard drive can pass its tests and still be faulty. But, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, there are more than a few posts indicating that a hard drive "passed" TiVo's diagnostics, but failed more thorough (extended read/write/read) tests with a PC.

A blinking green light usually means that TiVo cannot process any commands (no surprise). Possible data corruption from which TiVo cannot recover, motherboard issues, tuner, etc. Again, sounds like hard drive failure as things rarely get better with time and almost always get worse.

However having said that...it may or may not be the hard drive. Two ways to go. One would be to replace the hard drive and see how it goes. You'd likely need to use Instant Cake to image a new drive now. The other option would be to return it to TiVo for a replacement. Since you purchased it in October it's still under the parts warranty...$49 for a replacement.

How did the reboot go? If it will no longer power up properly I think I'd get it replaced. You can always upgrade later if you'd like, but things have gotten a bit more worrisome now and replacing the hard drive may not fix it.


----------



## cogx

jwest03 said:


> I ran every option on KS54, including extended and overnight tests, and everything "passed." But, I believe I read something somewhere that said TiVo's built in disk checker isn't that great and a bad hard drive can pass its tests and still be faulty. But, correct me if I'm wrong.


In my only experience, the KS 54 tests did give me failure codes, so I was confident that a replacement drive would fix the problem, which it did. In your case, I just don't know.


----------



## bmgoodman

jwest03 said:


> Has anyone ever experienced this? Does a blinking green light indicate anything? I can't find any clarification of it in any of my TiVo manuals. Like I said, I'll call TiVo tomorrow to see what it means. Hopefully it means the hard drive is bad and I'll just drop a new one in.


I usually assume any flaky Tivo behavior is caused by a failing hard drive and replace it. In nearly 9 years, this method was clearly wrong once. (In that case, I replaced the HD, then the power supply, and finally the whole Tivo.) So I would probably recommend you go for a HD replacement if you're comfortable doing so. You have little to lose, I suspect.


----------



## jwest03

I have some good news. WK-Jeff, over at the WeaKnees forum suggested running the Western Digital hard drive diagnostic tool. After spending a day and a half trying to find a friend with a SATA bay open and/or looking for a cheap SATA to USB adaptor, I was finally able to run the WD diagnostic tool on my TiVo hard drive. An hour and a half into the extended test (with an hour remaining), the test stopped because it found too many bad sectors. Hurray! It definitely is/was a hard drive problem and hopefully nothing else.

I plan to purchase a 1TB replacement drive tomorrow, online. But before I do, I have two quick questions. Are there anymore possible things that could be the cause of my problem, perhaps in tandem with hard drive failure? I would like to exhaust all possible tests before I start "fixing" things.

My other question... I plan to load the replacement drive myself. Do you suggest Instant Cake or is WinMFS simple enough? Basically, does the simplicity/straight forward use of Instant Cake outweigh the free WinMFS?


----------



## bareyb

jwest03 said:


> My other question... I plan to load the replacement drive myself. Do you suggest Instant Cake or is WinMFS simple enough? Basically, does the simplicity/straight forward use of Instant Cake outweigh the free WinMFS?


WinMFS is the way to go. It's fully documented in the first page of this thread and it's easier to use than anything else out there.


----------



## richsadams

bareyb said:


> WinMFS is the way to go. It's fully documented in the first page of this thread and it's easier to use than anything else out there.


I agree, with the caveat that the image on the original drive may be corrupted and you may end up having to use Instant Cake.

Odds are very strong that it's just a failed drive and that's it so you're safe in putting a new hard drive in IMHO.

The plus of using your original drive and winMFS (besides it being free) is that all of your settings (cable card info, season passes, etc.) will be saved to your new drive. For reasons you can imagine I'd avoid trying to save the existing recordings though. Basically it just means connecting your original drive to a PC, saving the image, connecting your new drive to the PC and copying the image to it and you're done. There are a few more steps of course, but if you follow the directions carefully, it couldn't be made more simple. We're talking about 10 minutes tops plus the time it takes to open the box and R&R the drive...maybe an hour, probably less but take your time. Pop the new drive in and you're on your way.

With IC you're guaranteed a pristine image but you'd have to have your cableco "re-pair" your cable cards and that might mean a truck roll. Not a big deal, but a little more to do is all.

Best of luck and happy upgrading.


----------



## jason_fox

Sorry to have to add yet another problem to this thread. 

Just got my TivoHD a few days ago, along with a 1TB pre-formatted drive. With the stock HD, everything seems fine. With the upgrade HD, I get the random restarts and freezes. The guy I bought the HD from (Tivo Pro on eBay) immediately sent me a new drive. Well, the new drive seemed peachy for a few hours, but then everything started going to pot again. Put the stock HD back in to see if it would have the same issues, but it's going strong after about 8 hours. Seems unlikely that two HDs in a row would be bad when the vendor has had only one bad HD ever. 

Any ideas?


----------



## jason_fox

Never mind. Tivo started locking up/resetting with stock drive, too. Time to send this thing back.


----------



## lob

So here is my problem - very similar to the rest. Let me give you the run down as i'm truly out of ideas..

Ive had my series 3 four about 14 months - never so much as had a problem until 2 weeks ago - then i got freezing/choppy recordings etc.. managed to repair for a while using KS codes.. but eventually i got a looping GSOD.

So thanks to the info on this forum i pulled out the HD and ran western diagnostics etc on it... it did indeed have bad sectors etc. So - i went over to weakness and got myself a new drive. I fitted it last week. All was well for about the first 24 hours. Then i got a new problem.

The Tivo randomly reboots. But this time everytime it reset it would get locked up on the "welcome" page..and all 4 leds would be on. This would happen at least 3 or 4 times a day. Thinking weakness had did me wrong i pulled their new drive out to run diags-it was clean. 

So that pointed me towards cable cards. (Even tho they've been good for over a year). Did a clear and delete everything - called cable company (who are now A LOTTTT better at understanding what "cable cards" are vs in 2007!) - got them to unpair then re-pair the cards. Got me through another 24 hours or so - reboots came back. So.... got 2 brand new cable cards..clear and delete everything... repeat setup..ok for a while...reboots came back

Today i did a KS code to force the GSOD screen just to try again-it only lasted like 2 minutes! (probably because theres nothing left on the drive now). So brand new hard drive - 4 different cable cards... tivo still reboots daily then gets stuck on welcome screen (wouldnt even be so bad if it rebooted and continued recording!). Oh ..Ive also tried removing all hd and premium channels from setup thinking it was a toxic channel. But-even when i leave both cards on a "safe channel" - it still reventually reboots and freezes. 

So as you can imagine i am VERY frustrated - at a total dead end with both cable company (who insist its the tivo) - and tivo (who obviously insist its still the cards) - as you can imagine i'm not happy about being over $900+ in the hole on parts etc to have no hd and no dvr! (i forgot how bad watching live tv is). Because i dont want to fork out for another series 3 so soon (only 14 months old!) I cant bear the thought of resorting to the horrid cable company dvr... this is absolutely infuriating - can anyone think of anything i havent tried?? 

Any help greatly appreciated..


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## kbtivo

Hi,

I have Comast HD (2 M Cablecards) in my S3 (not HD). I have had similar issues to many listed here. One thing I found is if I "removed" all of the HD channels (OTA and cable) - via channel selection under settings, the problems were much reduced. I performed an over night disk test. The next morning the result showed an "I/O error".

Tivo is replacing my 3 year old S3 for ~ $90.00, they discounted the $149 they normally charge. I have lifetime on the unit and at this reduced rate I couldn't justify replacing the HD myself (which I am fully capable of doing).

I'm curious if anyone else has tried "removing" the HD OTA and cable channels? And if so what the results were.

Ken


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## dougbl

We get this if accidentally punching in a Comcast on-demand channel. I have eliminated these channels from the 'my favorites' so we don't accidentially scroll thru them. We'll see if this helps. Not sure what else to do.


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## jwest03

An update for me...

I ordered a 1TB WD hard drive, ran the WD Diagnostic on the new hard drive to check for any bad sectors (it passed all tests), used Instant Cake to install the OS, and installed the hard drive earlier this week. I gave it a few days to see if the problem persisted, so far so good. However, tonight I'm watching TV and guess what? Screen freezes/hangs for about 3 seconds, then the TiVo starts to reboot. So much for the problem being fixed...

If a brand new hard drive, which passed a full diagnostic, still encounters the same problems the old hard drive did, I don't know what to do from here. I'm so pissed off right now, I want to just get rid of this box and never buy another TiVo that was manufactured after 2005. Any suggestions on what the problem still could be and if it's fixable outside of TiVo sending me a piece of trash replacement unit? I plan on calling TiVo on Monday and paying whatever fee it is to get a refurbished unit sent to me.

Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions are welcomed.


P.S. Is there a chance the Instant Cake installation was bad? I don't have cable cards re-installed yet, so they aren't causing the problem either.


----------



## jwest03

Contacted TiVo today, got a new (read: refurbished) unit on the way.

On a different note... Instant Cake was a giant waste of money. Yeah, sure it was simple to install a new image on my new hard drive, but I'm experiencing quite a few functionality issues. I contacted the maker's of Instant Cake, but they have yet to respond. Some issues I'm having are...

1. My TiVo can no longer group programs in my Now Playing list. I can turn the option on and off, but nothing happens.

2. I no longer have closed caption. I can no longer turn CC off/on in the quick menu, it forces me to go to the full menu (defeating the purpose of CC when you can't make out a small little phrase or sentence). And, when I turn CC on in the full menu, closed caption still does not show up.

3. I no longer have the 1 day skip forward / skip back functionality when viewing the guide (activated by pressing the skip forward or quick back buttons).

4. Whenever I go from a menu to a program (whether live or previously recorded), or vice versa, I get a visual glitch / static for a second. Not really anything of importance, but quite annoying and irritating.

These are just some of the problems I'm experiencing with the actual operating system that Instant Cake is responsible for. I even ran an emergency re-install through Kickstart to try to resolve the problems. So far, nothing has worked.

I just hope the TiVo unit has a perfect hard drive image I can pull off it, so I can avoid using Instant Cake again. I honestly cannot recommend Instant Cake to anyone, unless their original hard drive image is corrupt. Seriously, what a waste of 20 dollars. No offense to anyone that suggested Instant Cake, had it worked flawlessly (as it probably did for the people that suggested it), I wouldn't be so disappointed.


----------



## DougJohnson

jwest03 said:


> Contacted TiVo today, got a new (read: refurbished) unit on the way.
> 
> On a different note... Instant Cake was a giant waste of money. Yeah, sure it was simple to install a new image on my new hard drive, but I'm experiencing quite a few functionality issues.


I believe the Instant Cake image is of an early release of the TiVo software. If you load it on, boot the TiVo, and force an update, the TiVo will download the current software. No more functionality issues. -- Doug


----------



## greg_burns

Nothing wrong with IC. Like the above poster said, IC is just an early release of the software 8.x I bet. (Look in your system menu). Yeah, just force some updates, and it will be up to 9.4 in no time.



jwest03 said:


> 1. My TiVo can no longer group programs in my Now Playing list. I can turn the option on and off, but nothing happens.


This sounds to me like you transferred some shows to your PC and now transferred them back... This is a known issue. Let me dig up the link.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=328588


----------



## DougJohnson

greg_burns said:


> Nothing wrong with IC. Like the above poster said, IC is just an early release of the software 8.x I bet. (Look in your system menu). Yeah, just force some updates, and it will be up to 9.4 in no time.


Just one update will take you all the way to the current release. TiVo doesn't make you touch all the bases in between. My son-in-law just went through it with his Tivo HD. You do want to make a backup once you've got the system up to date and cable cards reinstalled. It will save you having to go through it again when the new hard drive quits.  -- Doug


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## greg_burns

DougJohnson said:


> Just one update will take you all the way to the current release. TiVo doesn't make you touch all the bases in between.


True. What I meant was you have to force a couple of connections. The latest update won't download on first connect. It will download on the second (or maybe third) connection.


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## richsadams

jwest03 said:


> On a different note... Instant Cake was a giant waste of money.


Agree with the others here. All of the "issues" you had are not with IC but with the software version your TiVo is running. Each of those features were added after the current IC image was created. The folks at DVRUpgrade do an outstanding job and will likely respond themselves, but just an FYI in the meantime.

TiVo's first priority on a new drive (or newly imaged drive) is to download guide data. The first will be for two days and then more with each contact until a full two weeks have been downloaded. It will also begin indexing all of the data causing it to run slower than normal for a while. Eventually it will download and install the latest software.

You can try to force an upgrade by going to Messages & Settings->Settings->Phone & Network->Connect now. Try that a few times. Once the download has completed you may see "Pending restart" listed in the "Last Status" line on the Phone & Network Screen or on the System Information screen. TiVo will automatically install the upgrade at 2 a.m. your time or you can reboot it (either by using the menu restart or unplug it, wait 10 seconds and plug it back in) and it will update immediately.

Enjoy!


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## Finney

I'm on my third series 3 Tivo now and it's doing the samething the first one did, which is lock up and go to a gray screen. The 2nd one wouldn't even stay unlocked long enough to get the guided setup done.

Meanwhile my old series 2 just keeps working and working.

The series 3 has me so feed up if I lived close to the Tivo home office I would have thrown it through their corporate headquarters front window.


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## rbpett

I bought the S3 6+ months ago - WD e-sata drive at the same time (500Gb). 2 Cablecards installed from FIOS, no problems. Only recently my Tivo has been stuttering (last month or so) at intermittent times on HD channels. I know for a fact it's not FIOS, because I also have a cablecard plugged directly into my TV. So when TIVO acts up, I change over to the TV and there is no stuttering. I had all 3 cablecards installed on the same day. Disappointing that all was wonderful, but now it's miserable a few months later. Bummer that no one seems to know the answer either.
Not a heat issue - Tivo is well ventilated and stays cool. 

Oh one more note - the stuttering never happens on playbacks of shows, just live TV.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER

rbpett said:


> I bought the S3 6+ months ago - WD e-sata drive at the same time (500Gb). 2 Cablecards installed from FIOS, no problems. Only recently my Tivo has been stuttering (last month or so) at intermittent times on HD channels. I know for a fact it's not FIOS, because I also have a cablecard plugged directly into my TV. So when TIVO acts up, I change over to the TV and there is no stuttering. I had all 3 cablecards installed on the same day. Disappointing that all was wonderful, but now it's miserable a few months later. Bummer that no one seems to know the answer either.
> Not a heat issue - Tivo is well ventilated and stays cool.
> 
> Oh one more note - the stuttering never happens on playbacks of shows, just live TV.


This could be related to the fact that the FiOS signal coming in can be a little 'hot'.
There's a thread dealing with this issue specifically, and how to fix it on the S3 with a filter between the cable and the S3.


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## rbpett

SC0TLANDF0REVER said:


> This could be related to the fact that the FiOS signal coming in can be a little 'hot'.
> There's a thread dealing with this issue specifically, and how to fix it on the S3 with a filter between the cable and the S3.


Do you have the link to the thread?
Thanks


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## richsadams

rbpett said:


> Do you have the link to the thread?
> Thanks


FIOS TV pixellation fix - attenuate to SNR 31


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## eghayes

Please help!!!

I'm on my 3rd Tivo series 3 HD box in a month and I have read all of these threads. I get the same response from Tivo, which is "send your box back to us and we'll send you another one". I have only OTA signals, no cable cards. I unplug the coax and the Tivo unlocks itself instantly. 

I've finally decided to get Verizon Fios but think I will wait since I've seen all of these issues. If it doesn't work with free TV, it surely won't work w/ Fios. They are supposed to install it on Friday June 5th.

BTW, I've tried all of the kickstart functions and nothing helps.


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## scsiguy72

eghayes said:


> Please help!!!
> 
> I'm on my 3rd Tivo series 3 HD box in a month and I have read all of these threads. I get the same response from Tivo, which is "send your box back to us and we'll send you another one". I have only OTA signals, no cable cards. I unplug the coax and the Tivo unlocks itself instantly.
> 
> I've finally decided to get Verizon Fios but think I will wait since I've seen all of these issues. If it doesn't work with free TV, it surely won't work w/ Fios. They are supposed to install it on Friday June 5th.
> 
> BTW, I've tried all of the kickstart functions and nothing helps.


If you have had 3 boxes all do the same thing, I just don't think it has anything to do with the Tivo Unit.

I have an HD and run OTA only and I love the set-up. Easy and other than a few problems when I first hooked things up, it has been working perfectly.

Only two things I can think of:

If it works fine after you remove the Coax cable, that makes me think the signal from the cable is the problem. Could you cut off the F-connectors on both Ends and put on new ones to see if they are shorted somehow?

Do you have a splitter in the run? Maybe that is causing a short. If so strip everything out that you can and try just the basic set-up, and then add the splitter or whatever until you find the problem.


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## eghayes

THANK YOU scsiguy72!!! I troubleshot all paths and found a bad connector. I actually had two bad connectors. I had this Tivo on another connection, which had all of the issues to begin with. I moved it to another location last night and ended up with the same issues again. I just find it strange that it worked for so long and then started to have issues. Either way, it works now and I greatly appreciate the advice.


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## scsiguy72

Glad it worked for you. Sometimes you just get lucky


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## Ramma2

Posting my issue in case others are having the same troubles and are looking to troubleshoot:

Symptoms: Came home to the Tivo showing the Tivo guy on the front display and all 4 lights were lit. Tivo unresponsive. Pulled power to reboot, saw welcome screen, then progressed to a blank grey screen and froze again. All 4 lights on the front of the unit lit.

Diagnosis: Pulled hard drive, 250GB Western Digital, manufacture date of 16 Oct 2006. Connected to my PC with a SATA to USB device, the drive failed the initial WinDLG test right away and was not recognized by WinMFS. Connected drive internally with SATA and power. Ran WinDLG again, passed SMART test. Ran full test, drive failed with bad sectors. WinMFS recognizes drive as a Tivo drive. 

Status: Purchased a 640GB 16MB cache Western Digital for 60$. Doing a WinMFS MFSCopy, working OK thus far. I hope that it is able to work through the bad sectors. Will update status as it changes.


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## eghayes

Well, I thought my problem was resolved with the F-connector fix, but I'm back where I started. I ran a Kickstart 54 and the Extended test yielded a Failed 7 code. Everything I've read says to ship it back because the drive is bad. After reading all of these threads, I'm guessing Tivo has a bad batch of drives and I just happed to get three in a row or all Series 3 HD DVRs are all bad.


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## ccrider2

Please excuse my post here. For some reason I quit getting email notices....just trying to Jump-start them.


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## JPWahl

I had lockup problems with my series3 HD unit and it turned out to be some old filters that comcast had installed in the box on my house. It also started after a tivo update, so I believe it was combo of things happening at the same time.


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## jconta

I'm having the (apparently usual) litany of issues with my S3: freezing / rebooting / etc.
I did a KS54 and everything came back normal. I've got 2 Comcast cable cards which have been in there about a month and everything seemed fine until a few days ago.

Before shelling out for a Weakness/DVRUpgrade drive, can anyone confirm that buying and installing one of these aftermarket replacements (with a larger cache) solved the issues?
And any thoughts on Weaknees vs. DVRUpgrade (yes, I know they're both forum sponsors)? If my home computer wasn't a POS, I'd do it myself but it is and I have no patience at this point to fight with it.

TIA,

JC


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## tivoupgrade

jconta said:


> I'm having the (apparently usual) litany of issues with my S3: freezing / rebooting / etc.
> I did a KS54 and everything came back normal. I've got 2 Comcast cable cards which have been in there about a month and everything seemed fine until a few days ago.
> 
> Before shelling out for a Weakness/DVRUpgrade drive, can anyone confirm that buying and installing one of these aftermarket replacements (with a larger cache) solved the issues?
> And any thoughts on Weaknees vs. DVRUpgrade (yes, I know they're both forum sponsors)? If my home computer wasn't a POS, I'd do it myself but it is and I have no patience at this point to fight with it.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> JC


JC -

One thing you might consider doing is running the manufacturer's diagnostics on your existing drive (they are available for free at the western digital web site) to see if there is a problem with it. Even with a relatively crappy home PC, running diagnostics on a drive isn't too difficult (as long as it has a SATA adapter in it, of course).

If the drive passes the basic and advanced diags, then its unlikely a replacement drive will solve the problem. If there is a problem with it, then one may very well solve the problem. Please see the article linked in my signature for more detail, if you are interested in looking into that.

Also, FWIW, Weaknees is not a sponsor/advertiser here, nor have they been for some time.

Lou


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## bananaman

Like a lot of posters in this thread, my original drive passed every test known to man, except for running the TiVo software. A replacement drive fixed the problem, still running great after over a year.


tivoupgrade said:


> If the drive passes the basic and advanced diags, then its unlikely a replacement drive will solve the problem.


----------



## dlfl

tivoupgrade said:


> JC -
> One thing you might consider doing is running the manufacturer's diagnostics on your existing drive (they are available for free at the western digital web site) to see if there is a problem with it. Even with a relatively crappy home PC, running diagnostics on a drive isn't too difficult (as long as it has a SATA adapter in it, of course).
> ..........


You can also do it even if your PC has no SATA adapter, using a USB-to-SATA adapter, e.g., Vantec from Amazon at $24 . I just ran the extended test on a 1 TB drive. It took almost 10 hrs. but it works. But the USB port must be 2.0.


----------



## jconta

bananaman said:


> Like a lot of posters in this thread, my original drive passed every test known to man, except for running the TiVo software. A replacement drive fixed the problem, still running great after over a year.


That's one of my concerns - my desktop does not support SATA so I'd need an adapter cable, then to go through all that and find that the drive is fine...

My bigger concern is that its an "upgraded" Tivo software issue (far too many people having the same problem all at the same time in my mind) and without a decent sized cache, a new drive won't fix it either.
Neither DVRUpgrade nor Weaknees specify exactly what type of drive your getting beyond the size, nor the cache specs.
I know the cache size issue is a hypothesis, but it seems to fit from what little I know.

Thanks for the input everyone.


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## richsadams

jconta said:


> My bigger concern is that its an "upgraded" Tivo software issue (far too many people having the same problem all at the same time in my mind) and without a decent sized cache, a new drive won't fix it either.


Quite the contrary, by comparison to previous upgrades, very few people are having any issues if one were to go by posts on this forum. FWIW thousands of TiVo's (including ours) are working just fine and in fact even better for us FIOS users since the latest upgrade (v11.0d) was released.



jconta said:


> Neither DVRUpgrade nor Weaknees specify exactly what type of drive your getting beyond the size, nor the cache specs. I know the cache size issue is a hypothesis, but it seems to fit from what little I know.


I think I'm the "author" of the OEM drive cache theory and a few (probably intoxicated) types have jumped on board.  TiVo OEM drives have 2MB cache. The replacement/upgrade drives the third party companies are using have a minimum of 8MB of cache. Whether a drive employing a larger cache has anything to do with resolving the issues some folks are experiencing is certainly debatable.

One thing that's really hard to argue with is the fact that almost without exception, those that have replaced their hard drives are no longer experiencing any problems. YMMV of course.


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## ZakJ

I am currently dealing with this same problem. My symptoms are:
1) Pixelation and sound dropout on HD channels
2) Extremely slow menu response (clears up immediately if I disconnect the cable or pull out cable cards)
3) Self rebooting

I had the cable company out today and they made it worse! Prior to today I had maybe 2 self reboots in the 3 years I've had the box. I had 3 reboots today after the installer "fixed" it. He found that some of the connectors had some exposed insulation so he replaced them. He also replaced a splitter. His initial measurement of the signal was a -7 (on a scale of -10 to +10, Im not sure what exactly he was measuring). After the "fix" it was at -3. He said the closer to 0 the better.

The Tivo diagnostics showed SNR of 35 and signal strength of 95, which Tivo tech support said was ok. But it also showed non-zero for RS corrected/uncorrected. The Tivo froze up on the diagnostic screen and rebooted itself.

While he was waiting for the Tivo to reboot, the tech checked on my cable modem. He saw the same RS corrected/uncorrected issues there. He was able to check some of my neighbors and saw they were also experiencing this problem. He is sending out another tech to analyze the signal outside of my house.

When I spoke to Tivo tech support, one guy suggested the signal may be too strong and I should install an attenuator. This is making more sense now that the cable tech made the signal stronger and the problem is getting worse.

Has anyone solved this problem by installing attenuators?


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## dlfl

95 is well inside the optimum range of signal strength (80 - 99) according to TiVo support documents. Is it constant for all channels?


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## ZakJ

It is when I look at it. Unfortunately, when the picture is all messed up and I try to get to the Diagnostic screen, the TiVo reboots itself.

So far, the only way I can reliably watch live HD TV is if one cable card is tuned to a SD channel.

I am still trying to get the cable company to fix whatever the problem is. In the mean time, I'm going to try an attenuator.



dlfl said:


> 95 is well inside the optimum range of signal strength (80 - 99) according to TiVo support documents. Is it constant for all channels?


----------



## JimWall

Tivo is always writing to disk both channels. And you are doing additional I/O watching one of the channels or watching one that is already recorded. Since one needs to be SD and it has problems with both being HD then I think you have a disk drive problem. It cannot handle the higher I/O requirements of 2 HD channels writing to disk at the same time.
I suggest you replace the drive and get one with more cache and more space.


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## Thess

Hi there. New S3 owner. 

My config:

TiVoHD (not XL), about 3 weeks old, upgraded this past weekend to 1TB drive via full backup and restore/expand method from factory drive. Replacement drive is a Seagate which is *not* on the recommended list (full disclosure)
1 multi cablecard
Tuning adapter

Since the drive upgrade this past weekend, Tivo has exhibited the following behavior 3 times in 24 hours:

1) Watch TV (usually Live tv as I recall, not playback). Hit pause and walk away. 

2) Come back 20 min or more later, discover TiVo will not respond to remote commands. Screen is usually blank or what looks like a swirled partial frame of video (nothing obvious). Yellow remote light does not light up. 

3) Drive activity can still be heard

4) Responds to front Format button

Have waited up to about 20 minutes past this point and it never seems to come back, have to yank the power.

It's not a remote control issue (have tried factory remote and Harmony remote). 

I've skimmed the beginning and ends of this thread and a few others. Does this sound like a potential issue with the new (admittedly non-rec'd) drive? I'm going to try pulling the cable next time based on some reports here. Complicating matters (maybe?) is that I also moved the location of the TiVo at the same time to a diff. outlet in the house.

I don't think this ever happened once prior to the drive upgrade, but we'd only had it a few weeks.

(Does TiVo refuse all warranty support, as per the FAQ, once drive is replaced? I did know this was a possibility and I am forewarned, just wondering what the reality is.)


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## richsadams

Thess said:


> Hi there. New S3 owner.
> 
> My config:
> 
> TiVoHD (not XL), about 3 weeks old, upgraded this past weekend to 1TB drive via full backup and restore/expand method from factory drive. Replacement drive is a Seagate which is *not* on the recommended list (full disclosure)
> 1 multi cablecard
> Tuning adapter <snip>


Sorry to hear that your new TiVo is having trouble. It does sound like a drive issue (although there are a couple of other things that it could be).

I wouldn't worry too much about the drive you're using being recommended or not. Drives that are not recommended generally do not boot up at all or go into a reboot cycle. If it worked (at all) it should continue to work normally. In other words, a drive will either work or it won't.

My advice would be to slip the original drive back in and use it for a week or so to see if the issue manifests itself again. In the meantime I'd run a drive diagnostic on your new drive to see if it has any problems. Seagate has a good drive diagnostic program you can download for free. If it fails (usually due to bad sectors...these things happen) you can return it to the retailer or get an RMA from Seagate for a new one. If it passes an extended test (full read/write/read - takes about 12 hours) I'd then use your original drive to re-image it again. Put it back in TiVo and see how things go.

TiVo is aware of upgraded drives via the logs they keep (from data TiVo sends to the mother ship). However IIRC there are only two posts in the past couple of years wherein TiVo refused to replace a defective unit while it was under warranty because of that. Generally speaking if TiVo is failing with the original drive installed (or reinstalled) you can exchange it for a replacement. Many folks here have done just that without any problems. (Of course they didn't mention the upgrade to the CSR.)

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## bkdtv

Thess said:


> Hi there. New S3 owner.
> 
> My config:
> 
> TiVoHD (not XL), about 3 weeks old, upgraded this past weekend to 1TB drive via full backup and restore/expand method from factory drive. Replacement drive is a Seagate which is *not* on the recommended list (full disclosure)
> 1 multi cablecard
> Tuning adapter


I too would recommend you reinstall the original drive to see if the behavior continues. If it doesn't, then you should look into a different drive replacement, preferably a recommended model.

The Seagate drive could be defective. If your TiVo is placed in an enclosed cabinet, some Seagate 7200rpm drives can also overheat in the TiVo (or cause the TiVo to overheat), causing problems much like you describe.


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## Thess

Thanks very much for the detailed response, and the tip on the Seagate utility. It was a new drive so it is probably worth spending the diagnostic time on if this continues.

I can't quite find any other posts reporting the same lockup behavior as mine (remote doesn't work but drive keeps crunching/Format button works), but I'm still digging through past posts.

Edited to add: to *bkdtv*, thanks also. This is indeed a 7200 RPM drive that is not known for coolness/quietness (don't have the exact model at hand), and my ent center is not the best ever for airflow (could be a lot worse and I don't crowd the tivo, but still). I had access to a couple of these drives for free, or I'd have just bought a rec'd one. Honestly, I've been half expecting a problem. We'll see how it goes.


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## kas25

My Tivo Series 3 which i've had for several years with a DVR expander is now frozen on the powering up screen. Tried several power pulls, unplugged the expander, etc. No luck. Two reds lights on the far left and lots of others in the middle. I have Verizon Fios, in case that matters. No freeze ups to date so this was out of the blue. Any suggestions?


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## richsadams

Thess said:


> Edited to add: to *bkdtv*, thanks also. This is indeed a 7200 RPM drive that is not known for coolness/quietness (don't have the exact model at hand), and my ent center is not the best ever for airflow (could be a lot worse and I don't crowd the tivo, but still). I had access to a couple of these drives for free, or I'd have just bought a rec'd one. Honestly, I've been half expecting a problem. We'll see how it goes.


When it's running you can check TiVo's temperature on the System Information screen (scroll down until you see the temp reading). If it's running higher than 55c it could be problematic as bkdtv points out. ("Normal" is somewhere between 40c and 48c or so for 5400 RPM drives.) Modern drives can run as high as 70c w/o failing but high temps mean a shorter lifespan and other associated problems.

Keep us posted!


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## richsadams

kas25 said:


> My Tivo Series 3 which i've had for several years with a DVR expander is now frozen on the powering up screen. Tried several power pulls, unplugged the expander, etc. No luck. Two reds lights on the far left and lots of others in the middle. I have Verizon Fios, in case that matters. No freeze ups to date so this was out of the blue. Any suggestions?


If TiVo is stuck on the "Welcome! Powering up" screen it means that the motherboard cannot communicate with the hard drive. Usually that means a failed hard drive.

When you say you unplugged the eSATA drive, do you mean you properly divorced it or did you just unplug the SATA cable and/or power cycle it? If you divorced it and it still won't boot up, the internal drive is most likely dead. If you didn't divorce it you should do that to determine if it's the WD My DVR Expander causing problems.

If you can post a few more details it might help to resolve the problem. Whatever the case, it's probably a good time to upgrade the internal hard drive to 1TB and get rid of the expansion drive. It's a fairly simple and inexpensive (<$100) DIY process...takes about an hour. More info on that can be found by clicking on the link below my sig.


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## kas25

richsadams said:


> If TiVo is stuck on the "Welcome! Powering up" screen it means that the motherboard cannot communicate with the hard drive. Usually that means a failed hard drive.
> 
> When you say you unplugged the eSATA drive, do you mean you properly divorced it or did you just unplug the SATA cable and/or power cycle it? If you divorced it and it still won't boot up, the internal drive is most likely dead. If you didn't divorce it you should do that to determine if it's the WD My DVR Expander causing problems.
> 
> If you can post a few more details it might help to resolve the problem. Whatever the case, it's probably a good time to upgrade the internal hard drive to 1TB and get rid of the expansion drive. It's a fairly simple and inexpensive (<$100) DIY process...takes about an hour. More info on that can be found by clicking on the link below my sig.


Thanks for the help. I just unplugged it as I asume divorcing it requires being able to go somewhere in the set up screen. I can't get past the power up screen so i assume divorcing is out of the question?


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## richsadams

kas25 said:


> Thanks for the help. I just unplugged it as I asume divorcing it requires being able to go somewhere in the set up screen. I can't get past the power up screen so i assume divorcing is out of the question?


If you haven't already, I would dsiconnect the eSATA drive completely and see if TiVo will boot up. If it does, there's obviously a problem with the eSATA drive (cable, enclosure, hard drive, etc.).

If you've already completely disconnected the expansion drive from TiVo and it still won't boot up, then it looks like the internal hard drive has failed. Again you have the option of replacing it yourself or buying a pre-imaged drive from a third party such as DVRUpgrade.com.

Let us know how it goes and best of luck.


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## rocko

kas25 said:


> Thanks for the help. I just unplugged it as I asume divorcing it requires being able to go somewhere in the set up screen. I can't get past the power up screen so i assume divorcing is out of the question?


If you've disconnected the external drive and can't get past the "powering up" screen then I'd say your internal drive is borked. Time for a 1TB replacement, either pre-loaded or bare plus a copy of Instant Cake and bake it yourself.


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## Thess

Update on my freezing issue a few posts back: I went ahead and ordered a recommended WD drive. But I can avoid the freezing for now (or at least experienced none last night) as long as I hit the TiVo button (to go to the main menu) rather than leaving playback paused if I'm walking away for any length of time. Weird.

I meant to check the system temperature last night but got distracted by a shiny object or something. It happens.

Edited to add: well, heck. I'm starting to wonder if this is my actual problem (remote interference):

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=433960

It would explain why 1) it happens after pausing and the screen goes dark, 2) why the tivo appears to be alive and just ignoring remote commands.

My TiVo is pretty close to my Samsung LCD.


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## kas25

rocko said:


> If you've disconnected the external drive and can't get past the "powering up" screen then I'd say your internal drive is borked. Time for a 1TB replacement, either pre-loaded or bare plus a copy of Instant Cake and bake it yourself.


I am not really comfortable replacing a hard drive myself. I assume i could just buy a new Tivo HD and use the dvr expander which i already have? One other thing I noted when I power up is a clicking noise? Is that the failed hard drive sound? Thanks.


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## richsadams

kas25 said:


> I am not really comfortable replacing a hard drive myself. I assume i could just buy a new Tivo HD and use the dvr expander which i already have? One other thing I noted when I power up is a clicking noise? Is that the failed hard drive sound? Thanks.


Hard drives normally make "clicking noises" during seek, record, etc. (some louder than others) but they are random. A repeated clicking sound is likely a hard drive failure. Have a listen to these noises...

http://datacent.com/hard_drive_sounds.php

Replacing a hard drive sounds complicated but it's really quite simple. Have a read of the Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ, particularly Section V, #18a. It takes me about 20 minutes to upgrade a hard drive now and most of that time is just spent on turning screws. Understood if you're not up for that, but you can also buy a fully imaged drive from a third party like DVRUpgrade.com and pop it in.

Here's a YouTube video showing how to replace the hard drive in a TiVo Series3, but the method is identical with a TiVo HD.






A new TiVo should work fine with your WD My DVR Expander of course.


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## richsadams

Thess said:


> Update on my freezing issue a few posts back: I went ahead and ordered a recommended WD drive. But I can avoid the freezing for now (or at least experienced none last night) as long as I hit the TiVo button (to go to the main menu) rather than leaving playback paused if I'm walking away for any length of time. Weird.
> 
> I meant to check the system temperature last night but got distracted by a shiny object or something. It happens.
> 
> Edited to add: well, heck. I'm starting to wonder if this is my actual problem (remote interference):
> 
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=433960
> 
> It would explain why 1) it happens after pausing and the screen goes dark, 2) why the tivo appears to be alive and just ignoring remote commands.
> 
> My TiVo is pretty close to my Samsung LCD.


Hmmm...anything is possible. Did you try any of the recommended resolutions?


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## Thess

richsadams said:


> Hmmm...anything is possible. Did you try any of the recommended resolutions?


Nah, have been stuck at work since the forum discovery. Will definitely report back, though.

I will likely replace the drive regardless (my confidence in the Seagate was never great for a variety of reasons) but tonight I'll be actively trying to reproduce the lockup and see if I can prove/disprove the interference theory.

God, no wonder my husband thinks I'm nuts.


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## richsadams

Thess said:


> God, no wonder my husband thinks I'm nuts.


 There's a fine line between insanity and genius. I always error on the genius side.


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## stretch35

with tivo verified 500g attached to tivo hd (original drive). freezes fails to boot beyond first power up screen, can't use any off the kickstarts. swapped esata cords no help.. when I reluctantly divorced external drive I was able to boot to normal ops , ran ks54 all testing separately followed with smart which ran for hours till I just unplugged it.. no errors ever showed up on internal drive.. reattached external same problem as before. so $195 500g external drive dies after 17 months. WD web site seems to have diagnostics tool only for windows (I'm mac) any ideas? on trouble shooting this or is it just a paper weight now.? at least I had moved most of the stuff to my mac with another wd drive external. but not really sure how to move it back.(diff thread ) Ironically I had just ordered a 1tb for my series 3 price only$129 so I didn't want to go the antec/ build your own ext drive route. Does it make any diff orientation of unit.. mine have always been set up like book


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## richsadams

Sorry to hear about your eSATA drive failing...if it helps, you're not alone. It's possible the actual hard drive inside your WD My DVR Expander is still good and can be saved. Check my post answering a similar question:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7486621#post7486621

BTW, orientation doesn't have any effect on eSATA drives. Ventilation does however have an effect on hard drive life. Good ventilation is a must for TiVo eSATA drives w/o built-in fans since they run 24/7.


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## stretch35

thanks for links mine just sat upright and not enclosed. don't really have any was of checking drive with my mac yet although I may just try esata to usb stick it in mac and see what shows up (although if it is enclosure still won't work) haven't seen the mx-1 for under $50-70


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## Thess

(Naturally I have been 100&#37; unable to cause my TiVo to freeze/replicate the problem ever since clicking the Submit button on a replacement drive order. I have the new drive now, too, and am stubbornly waiting to see if I can get another lockup. I *have* had minor remote dropouts again, so I'm still wondering about that interference issue.)


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## richsadams

Thess said:


> (Naturally I have been 100% unable to cause my TiVo to freeze/replicate the problem ever since clicking the Submit button on a replacement drive order. I have the new drive now, too, and am stubbornly waiting to see if I can get another lockup. I *have* had minor remote dropouts again, so I'm still wondering about that interference issue.)


Hmmm...sounds a bit more like a SATA cable issue?  Although it may be a case of bad sectors on the hard drive platter(s) and TiVo just hasn't tried to write data to those areas again. Hard to say.

Hope it all works out in any case.


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## richsadams

stretch35 said:


> thanks for links mine just sat upright and not enclosed. don't really have any was of checking drive with my mac yet although I may just try esata to usb stick it in mac and see what shows up (although if it is enclosure still won't work) haven't seen the mx-1 for under $50-70


Not sure how to test things w/Mac. I keep a PC I built for these kinds of things, but there must be a way with a Mac though. Let us know if you have any success and how you did it.

I've seen MX-1's come down to about $25 now and then, but you're right, nothing like that right now. $51 from Amazon w/free shipping seems to be the best deal at the moment. (Easiest return policy at least.)


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## acvthree

After 3 years of nearly flawless operation, my Tivo Series 3 has hung and rebooted several times in the last few weeks. My Tivo has an after market, weeknees, 750G hard drive. From everything I've read, this is almost always due to HD failure and, with the 1T drives under $100, I was thinking about just changing it out. The problem is that the hang and reboot occurred while watching streaming netflix tonight. Does that even involve the hard drive?

Al


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## richsadams

acvthree said:


> A The problem is that the hang and reboot occurred while watching streaming netflix tonight. Does that even involve the hard drive?


Sorry to hear things aren't working so well with your Series3. Everything involves the hard drive. That's why downloaded material doesn't start immediately and why you can pause and rewind it once it does. While you're watching Netflix (high data throughput, especially if it's HD), TiVo is also still busy recording two cable card streams (also high data I/O if it's HD) plus handling periodic updates, etc. If it's going to start showing signs of problems, that's when it will happen.

You could try running TiVo's built-in diagnostic programs called Kickstarts to see if anything can be resolved:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823

Otherwise, everything you need to know about a DIY upgrade can be found on the Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ.


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## synfinatic

So every week or so, my S3 starts slowing down, becoming less responsive to the remote, hanging and finally crashes. During the reboot, I get the GSoD. This has been going on for a few months now. Wife is getting less and less impressed.

Normally I would just upgrade/replace the internal drive, but we have a WD MyDVR (500MB) expander... so how do I figure out which drive is the culprit? Once I figure out what drive is causing the problem, what's the best way to replace it while saving our shows?

Thanks!


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## richsadams

synfinatic said:


> Normally I would just upgrade/replace the internal drive, but we have a WD MyDVR (500MB) expander... so how do I figure out which drive is the culprit? Once I figure out what drive is causing the problem, what's the best way to replace it while saving our shows?
> 
> Thanks!


See my post here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7529055#post7529055

It refers to the same problem someone is having with their TiVo HD but would apply to a Series3 as well.


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## acvthree

richsadams said:


> Sorry to hear things aren't working so well with your Series3. Everything involves the hard drive. That's why downloaded material doesn't start immediately and why you can pause and rewind it once it does. While you're watching Netflix (high data throughput, especially if it's HD), TiVo is also still busy recording two cable card streams (also high data I/O if it's HD) plus handling periodic updates, etc. If it's going to start showing signs of problems, that's when it will happen.
> 
> You could try running TiVo's built-in diagnostic programs called Kickstarts to see if anything can be resolved:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823
> 
> Otherwise, everything you need to know about a DIY upgrade can be found on the Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ.


Well, I got the "Tivo has detected a serious problem" screen. I suppose in three hours I'll have the results.

Al


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## richsadams

acvthree said:


> Well, I got the "Tivo has detected a serious problem" screen. I suppose in three hours I'll have the results.
> 
> Al


The GSOD indicates that TiVo needed to run mfs assert to correct some data corruption and possibly isolate some bad sectors on a hard drive. If it takes a long time...three hours would be a very long time, it means that there are probably some serious problems which TiVo may or may not be able to resolve. When the program is finished TiVo will reboot.

If it starts acting up again it's time to try some of the other solutions mentioned in my earlier post. But ideally things will be good again!

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## synfinatic

richsadams said:


> See my post here:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7529055#post7529055
> 
> It refers to the same problem someone is having with their TiVo HD but would apply to a Series3 as well.


Thanks for the info... sounds though like I'm going to loose most/all my shows though no matter what drive is bad? There's no way to copy the old drive data to a new one and have it married to the other drive?


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## richsadams

synfinatic said:


> There's no way to copy the old drive data to a new one and have it married to the other drive?


Unless you're familiar with Unix/Linux and willing to work with some complicated coding (more at the MFSlive.org forum) about the only option for saving non-copy protected recordings (created after connecting the eSATA drive) is to transfer them via TiVo Desktop (or another thrid-party program) to your computer.

Again per my other post, if it turns out to be that your WD My DVR Expander is bad (KS54 diagnostic) it may be that the enclosure is the problem, not the hard drive itself. If that's the case you can try removing the hard drive from the enclosure and placing it in a new one.

Best of luck!


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## synfinatic

richsadams said:


> Unless you're familiar with Unix/Linux and willing to work with some complicated coding (more at the MFSlive.org forum) about the only option for saving non-copy protected recordings (created after connecting the eSATA drive) is to transfer them via TiVo Desktop (or another thrid-party program) to your computer.
> 
> Again per my other post, if it turns out to be that your WD My DVR Expander is bad (KS54 diagnostic) it may be that the enclosure is the problem, not the hard drive itself. If that's the case you can try removing the hard drive from the enclosure and placing it in a new one.
> 
> Best of luck!


Considering I've been know to hack the Linux kernel on a few occasions, I might just be up to it.  I'll check out the mfslive forums. Thanks!


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## acvthree

richsadams said:


> The GSOD indicates that TiVo needed to run mfs assert to correct some data corruption and possibly isolate some bad sectors on a hard drive. If it takes a long time...three hours would be a very long time, it means that there are probably some serious problems which TiVo may or may not be able to resolve. When the program is finished TiVo will reboot.
> 
> If it starts acting up again it's time to try some of the other solutions mentioned in my earlier post. But ideally things will be good again!
> 
> Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


It didn't take very long at all. Maybe 10-15 minutes. So far, so good.

Al


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## richsadams

acvthree said:


> It didn't take very long at all. Maybe 10-15 minutes. So far, so good.


That's a very good sign Al. :up:


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## retired_guy

My S3, which has a 750GB upgrade, after three good years, went into a reboot loop after a power failure. It always failed whenever I went to live TV and the remote would not be recognized during live TV as well as failing on all connections back to TiVo. I tried all the usual things with no success and was about to replace the drive when I got the urge to make one last set of tries.

1. I deleted all recordings which looked weird; the last recording was triple recorded. Didn't fix the problem.
2. I tried to go online, hoping the updates would fix the problem. It failed to complee on two tries; didn't help.
3. I then did a restart in the delete all the duplicates and todos mode. Didn't help.
4. I then did a guide replacement. Wonders of wonders, it seems to have fixed the problems. I had one glitch while watching live, but as compared to before, I was able to get the box to recognize my remote and things have worked perfectly since. (My first try to connect to TiVo during the restart failed but succeeded when I click "retry".)
5. Due to the actions I'd taken, my season passes didn't show any episodes coming; so I replaced them one by one with new season passes and that caused everything to schedule back in. 

Obviously, some problems which appear to be hardware may actually be temporary problems caused by broken links or bad data stored as the result of a power or other glitches and can be fixed by trying richsadams's suggested techniques or the things I've tried above. Good luck.


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## richsadams

retired_guy said:


> My S3, which has a 750GB upgrade, after three good years, went into a reboot loop after a power failure. It always failed whenever I went to live TV and the remote would not be recognized during live TV as well as failing on all connections back to TiVo. I tried all the usual things with no success and was about to replace the drive when I got the urge to make one last set of tries.
> 
> <snip>


All good info. :up: I guess my concern though would be that it may have been more than data corruption causing the problem after the power failure. I've heard of folks doing a "C&DE" (clear and delete everything) and having some success until TiVo tried to write data to the damaged portion of the drive again.

I didn't mean to put something in the back of your mind, but going forward if you have any recordings that you just can't live without, transferring them to your computer might be some good preventative medicine. Hopefully things are back to normal though and life will continue to be good.

BTW, a good UPS like this one will almost certainly prevent power failures from corrupting or even bricking a TiVo. Very cheap insurance.


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## retired_guy

I already have a UPS for our bedroom TiVo; this past experience inspired me to order another one for the family room. Should arrive soon. I think almost anyone with a TiVo with lifetime support, particularly with a large upgraded disk, should get one.

By the way, I'd had a lot of power-up problems with a 1TB Samsung disk I'd installed in our bedroom HD. I'd posted some time ago about it in another thread. However, once I installed the UPS, the power-up problems completely went away. Apparently the power supply which TiVo uses is very sensitive to slightly out of spec power so that when the UPS clipped the voltage level back to exactly 120V as well as straightening up the signal, the drive problems went away. 

I know I may have a bad sector which may appear again, although since it was the power failure which triggered the problem, I think it's more likely that the problem was data oriented. Keeping the fingers crossed on this one. Note that the clear and delete didn't fix the problem by itself but rather required a follow-up guided setup for the problem to go away.


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## mgulko

richsadams said:


> That doesn't sound good...and really frustrating.  Points to a HDD problem.
> 
> You could give the old standby "Kickstart 57" a try. That will cause TiVo to run its built-in diagnostic program. It's worked for some. You could disconnect your antenna before trying it, but I'm not sure that would make any difference either way.
> 
> *Kickstart 57:*
> 
> 1. Unplug TiVo and wait 15 seconds.
> 2. Plug TiVo in, get the TiVo remote and aim it at TiVo.
> 3. Press and hold the pause button until the orange light comes back on by itself.
> 4. Release the pause button and immediately type in the numbers 5 and 7 on the remote (you have about 10 seconds to do this step).
> 5. TiVo will reboot and the GSOD screen will come on saying TiVo has encountered a serious error. It will then run the disk management tool which can take from 10 minutes to 3 hours to complete. During this time it will look for and correct configuration problems as well as isolating any bad sectors on the hard drive so they can no longer be used.
> 6. TiVo will automatically reboot again and hopefully things will return to normal. (Programs that used any bad sectors may be lost.)
> 
> If that doesnt work you may want to contact TiVo and see what they suggest. You might want to get an exchange unit or look into replacing your hard drive (very easy to do).
> 
> Best of luck!


Hi Rich,

I tried getting the GSOD on my HD XL unit but have not been able to. Do you know how to get the diagnostic program to run on that machine? Thanks!


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## richsadams

mgulko said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> I tried getting the GSOD on my HD XL unit but have not been able to. Do you know how to get the diagnostic program to run on that machine? Thanks!


I haven't had any experience with the HDXL. I don't know why the same Kickstarts that work with all of the TiVo's (ever made, more or less) wouldn't work with an HDXL but you never know.

What is your TiVo doing?


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## mgulko

richsadams said:


> I haven't had any experience with the HDXL. I don't know why the same Kickstarts that work with all of the TiVo's (ever made, more or less) wouldn't work with an HDXL but you never know.
> 
> What is your TiVo doing?


Every once in a while, it restarts itself. Sometimes it gets hung up, either at the starting up screen or at the almost there screen. I then unplug it and wait and it usually starts. Bought it in May 09 and have an external drive attached, and hours upon hours of programs which I hate to lose. All HD so I can't transfer them to my other TiVo because that is only SD. I tried the kickstart instructions but the lights are not the same and it didn't seem to work.


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## richsadams

mgulko said:


> Every once in a while, it restarts itself. Sometimes it gets hung up, either at the starting up screen or at the almost there screen. I then unplug it and wait and it usually starts. Bought it in May 09 and have an external drive attached, and hours upon hours of programs which I hate to lose. All HD so I can't transfer them to my other TiVo because that is only SD. I tried the kickstart instructions but the lights are not the same and it didn't seem to work.


Based on numerous posts here and elsewhere and the symptoms you've outlined the odds are that your external drive is causing trouble. Have a look at my post to a similar question and see if that helps...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7553444#post7553444

With regard to the Kickstart method, IIRC others with HDXL's have been successful getting them to run. Have a further read here and be sure you're following the instructions _exactly_...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823


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