# Game of Thrones "The Wars to Come" S05E01 OAD: 4/12/15



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

When I saw Charles Dance's name on the credits, I said "wait a minute?!" After all that last cross-bow shot wasn't really a killer-shot. So I started to think...

Anyway, pretty good start. Didn't think they would mention the Dany/Tyrion meeting in the 1st episode. Neither did I think Mance would be a goner so soon. 

Is Jon Snow in a heap of trouble for what he did? It certainly buys him a lot of respect from Mance's men.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

No Arya? no good premiere.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

You know nothing, Jon Snow.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I d idnt think it was terribly strong as far as got eps go, but I'm happy to have it back


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

After seeing Mad Men, glad to see a show with some story. Welcome back GoT!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Yeahbut the story was dark. I didn't need to see a man being burned alive, but maybe there will be a few more once Dany's dragons are allowed to fly again.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> Yeahbut the story was dark. I didn't need to see a man being burned alive, but maybe there will be a few more once Dany's dragons are allowed to fly again.


If they don't go through how excruciating it is, then the Jon Snow arrow doesn't have as much impact. It still would have gotten the point across but not with the same effect.

This just seemed like they were announcing the fighters and Michael Buffer yelling "Let's get ready to RUMBLE!" Hopefully the fight starts out with a flurry of good punches and an immediate knockdown.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

gossamer88 said:


> When I saw Charles Dance's name on the credits, I said "wait a minute?!" After all that last cross-bow shot wasn't really a killer-shot. So I started to think...


Just because an actor is present does not mean their character is still alive. People can have flashbacks or dreams with the actor in them.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Just because an actor is present does not mean their character is still alive. People can have flashbacks or dreams with the actor in them.


I kind of felt bad for him though. I can imagine the day on set..."Hey Charles! Glad to have you back. Lay there and don't move." I am sure he was thinking "well at least Jamie and Cersei didn't have sex on my body".


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> I kind of felt bad for him though. I can imagine the day on set..."Hey Charles! Glad to have you back. Lay there and don't move." I am sure he was thinking "well at least Jamie and Cersei didn't have sex on my body".


I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was filmed with last season...


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I can get the first four episodes already - someone leaked the first six so far. I think I will pass and wait for HBO air them. 

The story always starts slow and builds. It was a decent start and I am already looking forward to next week. Still not buying the "new guy" as Daenerys love interest. He seems like such a poor fit for the role.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

nickels said:


> I can get the first four episodes already - someone leaked the first six so far. I think I will pass and wait for HBO air them.
> 
> The story always starts slow and builds. It was a decent start and I am already looking forward to next week. Still not buying the "new guy" as Daenerys love interest. He seems like such a poor fit for the role.


Yeah I saw that. This is a huge "water cooler" show here at work and being ahead would just feel wrong.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

A couple of points I noticed in the opening credits:
Winterfell is no longer burning, but the Bolton sigil has replaced the Stark one.

The Dreadfort was absent, as was Braavos (although I'm guessing the latter will show up when Aria gets there)

The Aerie makes a comeback, but its "Clockwork version" is based on the original (season 1) version, not the later one.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I am sure he was thinking "well at least Jamie and Cersei didn't have sex on my body".


Who else besides me expected it when she told all the people outside to wait and walked in to find Jamie there.

I was very relieved when they didn't.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I noticed the schedule is 10 weeks straight. In other words, it is airing even on Memorial Day weekend.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I love every conversation between Tyrion and Varys...

something along the lines of "I killed my father and my lover"

"well, I never said you were perfect"

GoT is back. All is right with the world.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

tiassa said:


> A couple of points I noticed in the opening credits:
> Winterfell is no longer burning, but the Bolton sigil has replaced the Stark one.
> 
> The Dreadfort was absent, as was Braavos (although I'm guessing the latter will show up when Aria gets there)
> ...


I saw Pentos and Mehreen (sp?) in the credits. I was going to ask if this was a change and if they've been changing over time.

I always thought the clockwork opening credits were very cool visually, but I've been too impatient to watch them for years....


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I love every conversation between Tyrion and Varys...
> 
> something along the lines of "I killed my father and my lover"
> 
> ...


And the thought of Tyrion and Varys having a conversation with Dany is edge of the seat stuff.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mwhip said:


> And the thought of Tyrion and Varys having a conversation with Dany is edge of the seat stuff.


Definitely, and you'd have to wonder how much Dany would trust Tyrion, being a Lannister and all.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Will he be Hand of the Queen?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tlc said:


> Will he be Hand of the Queen?


Jamie can be the left hand for Tommen 

Does anyone know if the GoT on Facebook page is available?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Definitely, and you'd have to wonder how much Dany would trust Tyrion, being a Lannister and all.


Not only, but didn't Varys have a hand in getting the intel from Jorah and the sending of the poisoned wine assassin? Maybe the assassin was just working for King Robert.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

tiassa said:


> A couple of points I noticed in the opening credits:
> Winterfell is no longer burning, but the Bolton sigil has replaced the Stark one.
> 
> The Dreadfort was absent, as was Braavos (although I'm guessing the latter will show up when Aria gets there)
> ...


What about about poor Reek?


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Definitely, and you'd have to wonder how much Dany would trust Tyrion, being a Lannister and all.


The idea of those two working together is great, but yes, it is hard to see Dany trusting Tyrion.

She needs to find the "How to Train Your Dragon" kid.



MikeAndrews said:


> What about about poor Reek?


Please, no.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

tlc said:


> I always thought the clockwork opening credits were very cool visually, but I've been too impatient to watch them for years....


This is the only show whose credits I watch, start to finish, every episode. I would guess this same statement could be said by many, many people.



Steveknj said:


> Definitely, and you'd have to wonder how much Dany would trust Tyrion, being a Lannister and all.


Killing his father will help his street cred with her.



MikeAndrews said:


> What about about poor Reek?


Will no one think of the Reek?

WAG, next episode we get Reek, Arya and and any other story lines not covered this week.


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## jtonra (Oct 19, 2001)

What was the story with Sansa and Littlefinger. Where were they when we saw the scene with the kids practicing sword fighting? I totally missed what was going on there.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen? That guy is to take care of him and train him. Good luck!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

jtonra said:


> What was the story with Sansa and Littlefinger. Where were they when we saw the scene with the kids practicing sword fighting? I totally missed what was going on there.





SoBelle0 said:


> Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen? That guy is to take care of him and train him. Good luck!


And the caravan passes within the sight of Brienne, who is supposed to be looking for Sansa.

Does Littlefinger know that Sansa is married? 

Speaking of, what is Littlefinger's claim to the Airie now that Mom is dead? Little brat Robin is lord, unless LF thinks he'll bump off the kid...Oh. Wait. Is Sansa supposed to marry Robin?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

jtonra said:


> What was the story with Sansa and Littlefinger. Where were they when we saw the scene with the kids practicing sword fighting? I totally missed what was going on there.





SoBelle0 said:


> Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen? That guy is to take care of him and train him. Good luck!


The guy they left Robin with is Yohn Royce, a Lord of the Vale. Last season he was there when Sansa came clean about who she really is.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

How exactly does Tyrion get tailor made clothes wherever he is? Does he order from dwarfwarehouse.com?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

SoBelle0 said:


> Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen? That guy is to take care of him and train him. Good luck!


Isn't Robin their only hold on the Eirie? I would think they would want to keep him alive and safe with them.



MikeAndrews said:


> How exactly does Tyrion get tailor made clothes wherever he is? Does he order from dwarfwarehouse.com?


He probably gets his clothes the same way everyone else does--you either make them yourself if you're poor or hire someone to make them for you if you're a Lannister. I don't suppose they brought any of that Lannister gold with them.....


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> How exactly does Tyrion get tailor made clothes wherever he is? Does he order from dwarfwarehouse.com?


From a tailor?


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen?


 I kind of doubt it, but you never know. Meereen is where Dany is, and that's not only across the sea from Westeros (not a huge sea but not nothin') but also more than halfway across Essos (the other continent) which is huge compared to Westeros. Also, they were headed the wrong way (but I suppose they could have been going around to a seaport or something).

But I have no idea where they are going, really.



stellie93 said:


> Isn't Robin their only hold on the Eirie? I would think they would want to keep him alive and safe with them.


 He should be pretty safe with Royce. Probably safer to leave him in the Vale rather than take him and have a complete lack of any Arryn's in the Vale for an extended period.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tlc said:


> I saw Pentos and Mehreen (sp?) in the credits. I was going to ask if this was a change and if they've been changing over time.
> 
> I always thought the clockwork opening credits were very cool visually, but I've been too impatient to watch them for years....


The opening title sequence is almost "steampunk" style, since you mentioned "clockwork".


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> This is the only show whose credits I watch, start to finish, every episode.


Me too, exactly. Love the music.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> Looked like they were leaving Robin with someone else and are heading off to ?Mereen? That guy is to take care of him and train him. Good luck!


I noticed her hair is now dark. Are they (she and littlefinger) trying to disguise her identity?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm ready for the "If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook" blog.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Cercei must have gotten hit with an ugly stick a couple times as she grew up. Her younger self in the opening flashback was much prettier.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I think the actress is quite attractive IRL (with dark hair, etc)


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

I feel like Stannis made a HUGE mistake.

How is he going to get the wildlings to fight for him now?
Not only did he kill Mance, which will not make them love him ... Mance was the only leader to come along and unite all these disparate northern tribes toward a common goal. Their alliance is doomed to fall apart now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Stannis has always placed principle (as he sees it) ahead of common sense, or even sanity.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Why wouldn't young Cercei be hand in hand with her _loving_ twin brother Jamie?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Why wouldn't young Cercei be hand in hand with her _loving_ twin brother Jamie?


At that age he would usually be in armor swinging a sword somewhere.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I noticed her hair is now dark. Are they (she and littlefinger) trying to disguise her identity?


I thought she is trying to look as much like her mother as she can.



ClutchBrake said:


> I'm ready for the "If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook" blog.


YES! where is it?! I need it!



heySkippy said:


> At that age he would usually be in armor swinging a sword somewhere.


Um...at that age, he would be naked somewhere trying to stick his sword in anything that moved!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Um...at that age, he would be naked somewhere trying to stick his sword in anything that moved!


At 9 yrs old?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> At 9 yrs old?


I thought she was 14 or 15


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Just checked. 10 yrs old.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Marco said:


> I feel like Stannis made a HUGE mistake.
> 
> How is he going to get the wildlings to fight for him now?
> Not only did he kill Mance, which will not make them love him ... Mance was the only leader to come along and unite all these disparate northern tribes toward a common goal. Their alliance is doomed to fall apart now.


Maybe Jon has some favor with them, especially since Mance seemed to respect him some. Sparing Mance from the pain of execution, especially against Stanis' order, probably helps a little bit in that territory. I'm not sure that's much to go on, but my guess is that Jon somehow convinces them to fight for Stannis.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> Maybe Jon has some favor with them, especially since Mance seemed to respect him some. Sparing Mance from the pain of execution, especially against Stanis' order, probably helps a little bit in that territory. I'm not sure that's much to go on, but my guess is that Jon somehow convinces them to fight for Stannis.


My guess (that I don't actually believe) is that Stannis sentences John to death for defying him and the wildlings revolt.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Just checked. 10 yrs old.


Aha! so not 9!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

In the "previously on", I was a bit surprised that they bothered to show a scene with Lancel Lannister, as I didn't think he was really very important. Even more surprised that they gave him a scene in this otherwise busy episode. I guess it sort of wraps up the question of Robert's death in Season 1 a little bit, but there's got to be more to it than that. I'm not sure what this "Sparrows" thing is. The only thing I can make of, since they brought up Roberts death and the talk about redemption, is that he's somehow going to expose Cercei for her involvement.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I noticed her hair is now dark. Are they (she and littlefinger) trying to disguise her identity?


 IIRC at the end of last season when she decided to stop being a fainting flower and decided to start taking more control, she colored her hair black and started to dress in a much more adult fashion.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Wow, 8 million "live" viewers

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/b...-season-premiere-draws-8-million-viewers.html


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Um...at that age, he would be naked somewhere trying to stick his sword in anything that moved!


I don't remember Jaime and Cersei's relative ages but I do remember Jaime telling Catelyn (IIRC) that Cersei was the only one he'd been with.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Just checked. 10 yrs old.


And 10 in Game of Thrones Land is something like 28 to us.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I don't remember Jaime and Cersei's relative ages but I do remember Jaime telling Catelyn (IIRC) that Cersei was the only one he'd been with.


Cersei is older.

By several minutes.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

madscientist said:


> IIRC at the end of last season when she decided to stop being a fainting flower and decided to start taking more control, she colored her hair black and started to dress in a much more adult fashion.


She was trying to look like her mother, knowing full well how it would affect Littlefinger.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

rob helmerichs said:


> cersei is older.
> 
> By several minutes.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

astrohip said:


> This is the only show whose credits I watch, start to finish, every episode. I would guess this same statement could be said by many, many people.


Count me in that group. I like watching to see which locations get shown because it's usually an indication for what stories we'll see during the episode.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

The "If Game of Thrones happened entirely on Facebook" blog for this episode isn't up yet, but here's a funny picture recap to tide you over:



http://imgur.com/IlWT6


Warning: NSFW language and maybe a picture or two.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> In the "previously on", I was a bit surprised that they bothered to show a scene with Lancel Lannister, as I didn't think he was really very important. Even more surprised that they gave him a scene in this otherwise busy episode. I guess it sort of wraps up the question of Robert's death in Season 1 a little bit, but there's got to be more to it than that. I'm not sure what this "Sparrows" thing is. The only thing I can make of, since they brought up Roberts death and the talk about redemption, is that he's somehow going to expose Cercei for her involvement.


Based on his ragged clothing and talk of "The Seven" Lancel looked like he had taken a vow of poverty and joined some religious cult. I would imagine they were setting up that he's a threat to Cersei because he knows some of the bad things she's done.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

sbourgeo said:


> Based on his ragged clothing and talk of "The Seven" Lancel looked like he had taken a vow of poverty and joined some religious cult. I would imagine they were setting up that he's a threat to Cersei because he knows some of the bad things she's done.


I don't remember "the seven"...I just remember them mentioning "sparrows". It clearly seemed like some religious thing. But Lancel's father said something like "they wouldn't have dared come here when Tywin was still alive" so it sounded like maybe something more extreme than that, so yeah...cult may be more accurate.

Oh, I just went and looked up the closed captions for the episode. It was "I've found peace in the light of the Seven." I think that was just a reference to the 7 gods that most of westeros worships (as opposed to the old gods worshiped in the north, or the fire god worshiped by stannis/mellisandra)


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I guess it sort of wraps up the question of Robert's death in Season 1 a little bit, but there's got to be more to it than that. I'm not sure what this "Sparrows" thing is.


Spoiler relative to casting announcements from last year:



Spoiler



Jonathon Pryce has been cast as the "High Sparrow", the leader of a more "fanatical" sect of the religion of "The Seven"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> In the "previously on", I was a bit surprised that they bothered to show a scene with Lancel Lannister, as I didn't think he was really very important. Even more surprised that they gave him a scene in this otherwise busy episode. I guess it sort of wraps up the question of Robert's death in Season 1 a little bit, but there's got to be more to it than that. I'm not sure what this "Sparrows" thing is. The only thing I can make of, since they brought up Roberts death and the talk about redemption, is that he's somehow going to expose Cercei for her involvement.


I get the feeling that religous extremism is going to be a theme this year. First with the people who cut the Unsullied guy's throat and then with Lancel's group of fanatics.

Add to it Stannis and Mellissandre...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Maybe Jon has some favor with them, especially since Mance seemed to respect him some. Sparing Mance from the pain of execution, especially against Stanis' order, probably helps a little bit in that territory. I'm not sure that's much to go on, but my guess is that Jon somehow convinces them to fight for Stannis.


I know nothing (of what is to come, didn't read the books), so I'm speculating the Jon Snow will end up leading the wildlings. Whether it's as an ally of Stannis or enemy, not sure yet, but I'm guessing it might wind up the latter.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Steveknj said:


> I know nothing (of what is to come, didn't read the books), so I'm speculating the Jon Snow will end up leading the wildlings. Whether it's as an ally of Stannis or enemy, not sure yet, but I'm guessing it might wind up the latter.


I did read the books, but it appears that is irrelevant isn't it as Weiss and Benioff are going their own directions? I could see how Jon is treated in the books not happening in the TV show, they are already divergent on a number of key areas already...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I did read the books, but it appears that is irrelevant isn't it as Weiss and Benioff are going their own directions? I could see how Jon is treated in the books not happening in the TV show, they are already divergent on a number of key areas already...


I don't think they will steer the TV series in a different heading than GRRM intends. They will take their own path, and it will certainly be more direct, and there will be characters and plots that have significant variances. But to say the books are irrelevant puts too great a spin on the showrunners version of GoT.

I agree with your intent that we can no longer say "well in the books...", but I don't think we can say this is a series no longer based on his books. Or more properly, this is _still _a series based on his books.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

astrohip said:


> I don't think they will steer the TV series in a different heading than GRRM intends. They will take their own path, and it will certainly be more direct, and there will be characters and plots that have significant variances. But to say the books are irrelevant puts too great a spin on the showrunners version of GoT.
> 
> I agree with your intent that we can no longer say "well in the books...", but I don't think we can say this is a series no longer based on his books. Or more properly, this is _still _a series based on his books.


Maybe "irrelevant" was a badly chosen word, how about "aligned with" instead?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> Maybe "irrelevant" was a badly chosen word, how about "aligned with" instead?


I'll allow it.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I'm beginning to think I need to rewatch last season. I'm completely confused on the whole Sansa-Littlefinger thing. And I don't remember Sansa getting married.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> I'm beginning to think I need to rewatch last season. I'm completely confused on the whole Sansa-Littlefinger thing. And I don't remember Sansa getting married.


Sansa got married to Tyrion. Littlefinger helped her escape Kings Landing and took her to the Eyrie, where he was Lord of the Vale since he was married to Lysa.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I'd forgotten about that. But now that I read what you've written, I'm starting to remember some of the scenes between Sansa and Tyrion. Thanks for the memory boost.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nirisahn said:


> I'm beginning to think I need to rewatch last season. I'm completely confused on the whole Sansa-Littlefinger thing. And I don't remember Sansa getting married.


Sansa and Tyrion got married in season 3. So watching season 4 won't help with that part!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> I'd forgotten about that. But now that I read what you've written, I'm starting to remember some of the scenes between Sansa and Tyrion. Thanks for the memory boost.


Tyrion was forced to marry Sansa, but he felt she was too young and knew she didn't want to be married to him, so he treated her with respect and didn't force himself on her. This caused Shae to become jealous and Shae betrayed Tyrion, started sleeping with Tywin, and eventually lied in her testimony against Tyrion, resulting in him being sentenced to death.

Tyrion spent pretty much all of S4 locked in the dungeon, but when he was set free by Jaime, he snuck into Tywin's room and killed both Shae and Tywin before escaping Westeros with the help of Varys.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

To be fair, we don't know when Shae started sleeping with Tywin. We can assume that it happened after Tyrion called her a whore (being mean so she can leave) and put her on the next boat out of town.

All we know is that she was in his bed when Tyrion "escaped" and went to see his father.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

What never made sense is Tywin having Tyrion marry Sansa "to put the clans together" when Sansa's family is the Starks which by that time were pretty much wiped out with no estate.

Then Littlefinger conspired with Pycelle and Tywin and the Tyrells to poison Jeffy and pin it on Sansa & Tyrion. Then Littlefinger arranges to spirit Sansa away to the Aerie and make moves on her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> What never made sense is Tywin having Tyrion marry Sansa "to put the clans together" when Sansa's family is the Starks which by that time were pretty much wiped out with no estate.


No estate? the Starks had Winterfell. Sansa's children would have been first heirs. Tyrion would run the North in their names until they came of age. He killed Rob and then made sure the next heirs would be Lannisters.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Thinking a bit more about Cersei's flashback...have we had ANY flashbacks in previous seasons? Now that I think of it, I can't recall any. What was the significance of it? We already knew all the stuff about the children and about her marrying the queen. The part about her being replaced



> But I will be queen?
> 
> Oh, yes. You'll be queen. For a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.


When I first watched it, I didn't catch the whole thing and thought it was referring to Ned's sister Lyanna, whom Robert loved more. Now I realize "then" doesn't make sense since Robert actually loved Lyanna first. Is it referring to Margaery? They're sort of angling that way, especially with her comments about "Perhaps" when Loras mentions she'll be left in Kings Landing with Cersei. Perhaps Margeary has (or will get) some useful info from Lansel.

But how soon are they actually to be wed? I was thinking they were waiting for Tommen to age a bit more, in which case Stannis may roll through first, so the prophecy may be referring to Mellisandra.

It could also refer to Daenerys, but I think she's still a season or two from showing up in Westeros, and I think the placement of it as the season opening scene means it's something we're going to see this season.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> What never made sense is Tywin having Tyrion marry Sansa "to put the clans together" when Sansa's family is the Starks which by that time were pretty much wiped out with no estate.
> 
> Then Littlefinger *conspired with Pycelle and Tywin* and the Tyrells to poison Jeffy and pin it on Sansa & Tyrion. Then Littlefinger arranges to spirit Sansa away to the Aerie and make moves on her.


Huh?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> No estate? the Starks had Winterfell. Sansa's children would have been first heirs. Tyrion would run the North in their names until they came of age. He killed Rob and then made sure the next heirs would be Lannisters.


Winterfell was burned down by Theon Greyjoy and taken by Roose Bolton.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

sbourgeo said:


> Based on his ragged clothing and talk of "The Seven" Lancel looked like he had taken a vow of poverty and joined some religious cult. I would imagine they were setting up that he's a threat to Cersei because he knows some of the bad things she's done.





LordKronos said:


> I don't remember "the seven"...I just remember them mentioning "sparrows". It clearly seemed like some religious thing. But Lancel's father said something like "they wouldn't have dared come here when Tywin was still alive" so it sounded like maybe something more extreme than that, so yeah...cult may be more accurate.
> 
> Oh, I just went and looked up the closed captions for the episode. It was "I've found peace in the light of the Seven." I think that was just a reference to the 7 gods that most of westeros worships (as opposed to the old gods worshiped in the north, or the fire god worshiped by stannis/mellisandra)


Yes, "The Seven" are the "new gods" referenced in the oft-heard Westerosi phrase "the old gods and the new". Based on Lancel's appearance and dialogue, we can probably assume that the Sparrows appear to be a fundamentalist sect (i.e. cult) of worshippers of the Seven.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Huh?


Pycelle said his stock of the poison had been stolen. Tywin was too ready to condemn Tyrion. He wanted Jeffy gone because he was getting out of control.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> What never made sense is Tywin having Tyrion marry Sansa "to put the clans together" when Sansa's family is the Starks which by that time were pretty much wiped out with no estate.
> 
> Then Littlefinger conspired with Pycelle and Tywin and the Tyrells to poison Jeffy and pin it on Sansa & Tyrion. Then Littlefinger arranges to spirit Sansa away to the Aerie and make moves on her.


Sansa is considered the true heir to the north (based on most people's belief that Bran and Rickon are dead). That's why Tywin had them marry. Same reason for marrying Loras...the Tyrell's command that largest (or second largest...I don't remember the analysis of the numbers we did back in season 2 or 3) army. Essentially, those 2 marriages gives the Lannisters family ties to the vast majority of Westeros (Pyke islands and Dorne being the 2 exceptions).

As for the 2nd part of your statment, I think that is very inaccurate. I don't recall Pycelle having anything to do with it, and I'm almost positive Tywin wasn't in on it, despite him having almost every reason to want to have done it.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Pycelle said his stock of the poison had been stolen. Tywin was too ready to condemn Tyrion. He wanted Jeffy gone because he was getting out of control.


Everyone lied their but off in that "trial". Shae did. Even Varys turned on Tyrion when he thought it was politically necessary. Plus Pycell and Tyrion have a bit of a feud, after Tyrion had him locked up back in season 2.

As for Tywin, he never gave a crap about Tyrion and was more than happy to take any opportunity to blame it on him. I don't think any framing was necessary there. And yes, Tywin had the total motivation to want Joffrey gone, but I'm sure he knew it would be too dangerous to conspire with the Tyrells to do so. He was already concerned a bit about the Tyrells' power. I don't think he'd want to risk conspiring regicide with them.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> And yes, Tywin had the total motivation to want Joffrey gone, but I'm sure he knew it would be too dangerous to conspire with the Tyrells to do so. He was already concerned a bit about the Tyrells' power. I don't think he'd want to risk conspiring regicide with them.


I suspect, no matter how evil Joffrey became, the ony way Tywin would ever move against him would be if he believed the stories about his children's incest.

And I don't think he could ever allow himself to believe that...


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Sansa and Tyrion got married in season 3. So watching season 4 won't help with that part!


Season 3? No wonder I didn't remember. Maybe I need to rewatch the whole thing. There are so many players and plotlines that I keep getting confused.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I don't remember any hint that Tywin was complicit in Joffery's assassination. It was the Tyrells with help from Baelish.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

nirisahn said:


> Season 3? No wonder I didn't remember. Maybe I need to rewatch the whole thing. There are so many players and plotlines that I keep getting confused.


Here you go - study up, this wiki is the best:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Episode_Guide


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

nickels said:


> Here you go - study up, this wiki is the best:
> http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Episode_Guide


Bookmarked! Excellent. Thank you. :up:


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

heySkippy said:


> I don't remember any hint that Tywin was complicit in Joffery's assassination. It was the Tyrells with help from Baelish.


That's what I recall as well. No hint of Tywin and I wouldn't believe it either.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Absolutely. Tywin would not be involved in the murder of Joffrey, even though he was as detestable and deplorable a human being as ever walked the halls of the Red Keep.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Is it Sunday yet... Must .. Resist .. Pirated stuff on the interwebs ...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Winterfell was burned down by Theon Greyjoy and taken by Roose Bolton.


Winterfell is just a place. Places can be fixed and rebuilt. Winterfell represents The North; which is HUGE. Bolton was made warden of the North but the true heirs would have been Sansa's children. As usual, Tywin was playing an excellent short game (Bolton) but also a superb long game (Tyrion marrying Sansa).



DreadPirateRob said:


> Absolutely. Tywin would not be involved in the murder of Joffrey, even though he was as detestable and deplorable a human being as ever walked the halls of the Red Keep.


Exactly. Tywin made lemonade out of lemons. He quickly realized Tommen would be easier to manage and he could use Tyrion to get Jamie to go back to Casterly Rock and make little Lannister heirs. He would also get rid of Tyrion by making him a Crow. He didn't kill Joffrey but he sure as heck was going to make the most of the opportunities the murder presented him.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Cross-posted from the book spoilers thread, but there's no spoilers in this video. It is however, very funny:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That is really funny. Loved it!

What was the part when he was behind the chair? I got the Joffrey choking and the Mountain crushing the Viper's skull...but I didn't get the reference when he was hiding behind the chair.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

It was good.


Anubys said:


> What was the part when he was behind the chair?


I don't think it was so much him hiding. With all the butter knives, I think he was just showing the Iron Throne.
I wasn't entirely sure what the little casting a curse motion right after that was referring to. Mellisanra?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Then Littlefinger conspired with Pycelle and Tywin and the Tyrells to poison Jeffy and pin it on Sansa & Tyrion. Then Littlefinger arranges to spirit Sansa away to the Aerie and make moves on her.


No. Littlefinger conspired with Olenna Tyrell, no one else.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> That is really funny. Loved it!
> 
> What was the part when he was behind the chair? I got the Joffrey choking and the Mountain crushing the Viper's skull...but I didn't get the reference when he was hiding behind the chair.





LordKronos said:


> It was good.
> 
> I don't think it was so much him hiding. With all the butter knives, I think he was just showing the Iron Throne.


Yeah, I think he was just showing them what the Iron Throne looked like.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Of course, they interrupted him as he was ready to tell us who he thinks his mother is. But then, he has no idea, so I guess his opinion wouldn't be worth that much.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I have a feeling he doesn't know all that much.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I have a feeling he doesn't know all that much.


I've heard that he knows nothing.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

jakerock said:


> I've heard that he knows nothing.


And what he knows is wrong. His brother didn't get murdered at his own wedding.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

They don't call him You Know Nothing Jon Snow for nothing!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> And what he knows is wrong. His brother didn't get murdered at his own wedding.


Well, it's not like he was there......


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Here is the "If Game of Thrones Took Place Entirely on Facebook" blog entry for this episode:

http://valarbloghulis.someecards.co...e-entirely-on-facebook-the-season-5-premiere/


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Unboxing: Treasonous Dwarf

LOL


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I thought the


Spoiler



Brian Williams


 joke was the best. But there are some really good ones in there!


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