# Is Dec 15th ... the HD dark day?



## sgmorton (Jun 13, 2002)

So I got the call from D* last night your HD equipment is old and blah blah...

I called the number back to see what my options are. The rep told me she would replace my unit for free but could not promise a certain model on the replacement. She then went on to tell me how I was missing out on some 35 channels of HD that I would be getting if I upgraded. I also confirmed this reset the 2 year agreement.

I asked her if the new box would be a Tivo based unit.(knowing the answer of course) She replied with it's just like the Tivo you have now. I told her oh good I only want Tivo branded software... at that point she started to backtrack and confessed it was not Tivo. I told her never mind then as I only wanted a Tivo box. She said that's fine your programming will stop working on Dec 15th. I made sure she was only talking about the HD programming which she was. I told how disappointed I was and that if I could not get HD and Tivo from D* that this would be the end of their 13 year subscription with me. She noted my account. 

So is Dec 15th the day I/we go to OTA only? and what are the prospects of getting 2 D* HD non DVR units and wiring them to SA - S3 HD model? I can;t seem to find anywhere on the net talking about this.

I guess my FIOS can't get here fast enough...


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

If you can get FiOS with a TiVo S3 or TiVo HD, then you already have the best option that exists. The bandwidth of FiOS broadband, the PQ is reported to be awesome, and all the features of a standalone TiVo S3 or HD... DirecTV has nothing to counter with in my opinion. I wouldn't be able to cancel DTV fast enough if I had FiOS in my area.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

The message I got said I would lose current HD channels "eventually". I'd be surprised if that means December. What's the rush?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

No


sgmorton said:


> So is Dec 15th the day I/we go to OTA only?


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## sgmorton (Jun 13, 2002)

FIOS was scheduled for October in my area but it's not here yet... tick tock... hopefully it will come before they cut off the HD content.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Unless DirecTV can provide me with ALL networks in HD by Dec 15 then I'd almost be okay with that. To reiterate my situation. I have the four major nets in HD because of waivers. Locally I can get, somewhat sporatically, ABC, CBS, Fox and PBS via OTA. No NBC or The CW. 

So I doubt DirecTV will shut off ALL HD on 12/15, unless they are only talking about their MPEG2 channels and all subscribers have updated that want to be updated.


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## sgmorton (Jun 13, 2002)

Maybe I was not clear... I am only talking about the MPEG2 HD channels going dark on Dec 15.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

sgmorton said:


> Maybe I was not clear... I am only talking about the MPEG2 HD channels going dark on Dec 15.


DirecTV CSRs are not known for providing accurate information.

We heard from other sources (can't remember where right now) that the MPEG-2 HD will be around for up to two more years.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Okay, but the DNS network channels (80-89) are also MPEG2.


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## michael1248 (Feb 14, 2002)

Fios?


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

There's absolutely no way they're going to be turning off MPEG2 HD channels 5 weeks from now ...not gonna happen IMO.

Think of all the HR10 and H10 owners who would need to be contacted ...and swapped ...or technically, their commitment with D* would pretty much be void.

When D* is nearing the turnoff, they'll want to contact all remaining owners of older equipment while giving them the opportunity to upgrade well in advance of the turnoff date. 

Letting people know in plenty of time not only benefits the customers, but benefits D* as well, and they won't let that opportunity pass without doing so.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Not gonna happen. Apart from anything else, it's mid-season for the football and D* will run MPEG2 feeds - as promised- for the rest of the season at least.

As for the OPs comment about getting HD receivers and S3s, this won't work either. The S3 (and the new TiVo HD) are both cable & OTA only. They don't have the capability to receive satellite broadcasts.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Sir_winealot said:


> Think of all the HR10 and H10 owners who would need to be contacted ...and swapped ...or technically, their commitment with D* would pretty much be void.


I don't know how many H10's are active but I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade. They only sold a few hundred thousand HR10's to start with and many have been swapped out for HR20's already.

I wouldn't put it past them to see the benefit of offering to swap the rest and turning off the mpeg2 HD streams. The sooner they do the sooner they can reclaim all that bandwith on the older sat's for SD channels.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

I think there's a few things going on.

First, I wouldn't expect all or even much of the current MPEG2 programming to go dark on 12/15. As noted, too many customers to contact, and too much equipment to swap out between now and then if they go down that road.

Second, some changes are coming on or about 12/15 which will impact customers that currently get the HD channels and in effect customers that are getting the current HD pack will be missing channels that they used to get as a few channels are going to be moved into another tier that adds $5.00 per month to customer's bills.

Somewhere over the next 3 - 6 months I imagine some of the channels that are moved to that extra tier will likely get moved from MPEG2 to MPEG4 slowly but surely reducing the amount of MPEG2 content that is available.

As is, once the 3 channels that are moving to the new tier move, a fair number of subscribers that only have the MPEG2 equipment may opt not to pay for the new content and might even drop existing HD content as they will, in effect, be paying the same price for about half the number of channels, or paying $5.00 more but only getting the same number of channels they already get while others (with MPEG4 equipment) get at least 3 additional channels for that same $5.00 per month. If that happens the problem starts taking care of itself really as the demand for, and reasons to keep the MPEG2 channels (i.e., numbers of subscribers that need 'em) start dwindling.

Eventually the MPEG2 channels will go dark so that DirecTV can make room for more content (either SD channels or more MPEG4 channels), but unless we see many more people saying they've gotten the news, I wouldn't count on it happening too quickly.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't know how many H10's are active but I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade. They only sold a few hundred thousand HR10's to start with and many have been swapped out for HR20's already.
> 
> I wouldn't put it past them to see the benefit of offering to swap the rest and turning off the mpeg2 HD streams. The sooner they do the sooner they can reclaim all that bandwith on the older sat's for SD channels.


Keep in mind it's not just HR10 users, but also H10 users (users of the non-DVR HD receivers, which I think are H10 boxes, but I could be wrong).


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

The only thing happening on December 15th is that is the day the new HD Extra Pack starts. So if you want channels like HDNet, HDNet Movies and Universal HD (along with MPEG4 only like MHD, MGM HD and Simthsonian HD) then you'll need to pay $5 for that extra pack. If you don't get the Extra pack then those channels are no longer available to you.

So impact for those without MPEG4 equipment...after Dec 15th if you don't pay the $5 for the HD Extra then you'll only get ESPN, ESPN2 and TNT in HD with the HD Access fee.

Impact for those with MPEG4 equipment...if you don't pay then you lose the above mentioned channels but you'll still get the 70+ other HD channels. 

All the details and more are on DBSTalk.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Not gonna happen. Apart from anything else, it's mid-season for the football and D* will run MPEG2 feeds - as promised- for the rest of the season at least.
> 
> As for the OPs comment about getting HD receivers and S3s, this won't work either. The S3 (and the new TiVo HD) are both cable & OTA only. They don't have the capability to receive satellite broadcasts.


And don't have inputs from either HDMI or Component to accept the hi-def output from a DirecTV hi-def receiver.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

> Second, some changes are coming on or about 12/15 which will impact customers that currently get the HD channels and in effect customers that are getting the current HD pack will be missing channels that they used to get as a few channels are going to be moved into another tier that adds $5.00 per month to customer's bills.Somewhere over the next 3 - 6 months I imagine some of the channels that are moved to that extra tier will likely get moved from MPEG2 to MPEG4 slowly but surely reducing the amount of MPEG2 content that is available.


so people who are paying for and receiving their hd channels (9.99/mo) are suddenly going to wake up in a month, notice that theyre missing several channels and be made to pay extra to get them back?

i have a hard time believing even dtv is that much of a scumbag corporation to pull that kind of bs.

this might be true for new hd subscribers, but to remove (a portion of) the current hd pack (which is total bullsh*t for the $$ to begin with) so that they can extort more money away from their highest paying/best customers (hd watchers generally pay more) would be an assinine move that would alienate customers.

i think theres some confusion as to how this is really gonna work, and who its gonna affect.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

It's true for current subscribers too, and notices about it have been sent out. I suppose the way they see it is that they've gone from 10 HD channels to 70+ and the price goes up by $5.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

yeah, but im talkin about those who only have h10s and hr10s. i can understand this affecting those of us with hr20s, but my mom (who only has an hr10) is gonna get hit with this?

if thats the case, it aint right and ill switch her to fios before paying dtv another penny.


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## Generic (Dec 27, 2005)

michael1248 said:


> Fios?


Fios is Verizon's fiber optic internet and television service that they are currently rolling out to many parts of it's service area. If you don't live in Verizon's service area, then it will not be available to you.

http://www.verizonfios.com


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Absolutely not correct. *Legacy hardware customers* (H10, HR10) will continue to get EXACTLY what they have now for the forseeable future at no additional cost. No loss of channels, no additional fees. I even posted the name of new legacy HD tier a while back in one of these threads. Ask DORIS, she'll tell you. You MAY need to call D* to get them back because they will probably screw up the tier conversion but they are absolutely NOT going to remove the 3 of only 7 current channels H10,HR10 people get on 12/15 then charge them $5 to get them back UNLESS you have the HR20,21,H20,21 that is getting all the new HD channels. That would e totally insane on their part.

Edit: Here is the new tier info: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5616641&&#post5616641



bonscott87 said:


> The only thing happening on December 15th is that is the day the new HD Extra Pack starts. So if you want channels like HDNet, HDNet Movies and Universal HD (along with MPEG4 only like MHD, MGM HD and Simthsonian HD) then you'll need to pay $5 for that extra pack. If you don't get the Extra pack then those channels are no longer available to you.
> 
> So impact for those without MPEG4 equipment...after Dec 15th if you don't pay the $5 for the HD Extra then you'll only get ESPN, ESPN2 and TNT in HD with the HD Access fee.
> 
> ...


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Don't worry, they won't, see post above.


rickmeoff said:


> yeah, but im talkin about those who only have h10s and hr10s. i can understand this affecting those of us with hr20s, but my mom (who only has an hr10) is gonna get hit with this?
> 
> if thats the case, it aint right and ill switch her to fios before paying dtv another penny.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

incog-neato said:


> Don't worry, they won't, see post above.


i didnt think this was the case and that some folks were obviously misinformed:



bonscott87 said:


> So impact for those without MPEG4 equipment...after Dec 15th if you don't pay the $5 for the HD Extra then you'll only get ESPN, ESPN2 and TNT in HD with the HD Access fee.


which qualifies the above quote as being completely inaccurate. thanks for clarifying incog-neato.


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## garywj (May 3, 2005)

I have had FIOS TV for almost a year. The FIOS team don't view themselves as a cable company as a result the don't adhere to any of the agrements between the Industry and the FCC. I. IE.. they don't support FireWire. They came out with a new guide system a few months ago and it is a mess. They left out several functions and those that are there don't work well. They talk all the time about their bandwidth and they will compete with everyone when it comes to HD channels but D* now has 77 nation wide channels and FIOS added A&EHD to give us 23.
They keep raising the prices on hardware and services. I think the Verizon HQ is not happy with the revanew picture for FIOS TV and they are slowing things down.


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## sgmorton (Jun 13, 2002)

So with FIOS can you get a cable card? So I could do the S3?

..and for everyone else thanks a ton for clearing this up, I know that I am missing out on some HD content by sticking with Tivo but I really really really like the Tivo ... so far nothing I see is going to make me switch over to a non-Tivo unit. Now if I could only get it phone in on Vonage I'd be golden...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Theoretically, yes, with FiOS TV you can get a CableCARD and use an S3 or TiVoHD. Some people have better luck with this than others.

I'll never get FiOS TV even though I have FiOS broadband, as Verizon is selling off their network in New Hampshire to Fairpoint Communications which states that it has no intention of expanding the fiber optic service.


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## pmturcotte (May 7, 2001)

garywj said:


> I have had FIOS TV for almost a year. The FIOS team don't view themselves as a cable company as a result the don't adhere to any of the agrements between the Industry and the FCC. I. IE.. they don't support FireWire. They came out with a new guide system a few months ago and it is a mess. They left out several functions and those that are there don't work well. They talk all the time about their bandwidth and they will compete with everyone when it comes to HD channels but D* now has 77 nation wide channels and FIOS added A&EHD to give us 23.
> They keep raising the prices on hardware and services. I think the Verizon HQ is not happy with the revanew picture for FIOS TV and they are slowing things down.


I dont know if this gives the full story but apparently Verizon announced this week they will be at 70 HD channels by Spring and 150 by next Fall.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/150-FiOS-HD-Channels-in-2008-89020?nocomment=1


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> The only thing happening on December 15th is that is the day the new HD Extra Pack starts. So if you want channels like HDNet, HDNet Movies and Universal HD (along with MPEG4 only like MHD, MGM HD and Simthsonian HD) then you'll need to pay $5 for that extra pack. If you don't get the Extra pack then those channels are no longer available to you.


HDNet may not go into the premium tier until the lawsuit they just filed against D* is disposed of. I don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. /steve


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> so people who are paying for and receiving their hd channels (9.99/mo) are suddenly going to wake up in a month, notice that theyre missing several channels and be made to pay extra to get them back?
> 
> i have a hard time believing even dtv is that much of a scumbag corporation to pull that kind of bs.
> 
> ...


Well, there is nothing sudden about it. DirecTV has mailed full color borchure to people over the past few weeks that explain the package changes. Outside a few that didn't get the mailing for whatever reason should be well informed of the coming changes in packages. The new "HD Extra" pack started a couple months ago actually and we are all in a free "preview" mode for it until December 15th.

By the way, this has been discussed for a couple months over on DBSTalk. Nothing new and you can find pages and pages of discussion there if you want more info or just want to get your blood pressure up. 

I personally don't know if I'll pay the $5 or not. I do like HDNet but other then hockey I could live without it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> Absolutely not correct. *Legacy hardware customers* (H10, HR10) will continue to get EXACTLY what they have now for the forseeable future at no additional cost. No loss of channels, no additional fees. I even posted the name of new legacy HD tier a while back in one of these threads. Ask DORIS, she'll tell you. You MAY need to call D* to get them back because they will probably screw up the tier conversion but they are absolutely NOT going to remove the 3 of only 7 current channels H10,HR10 people get on 12/15 then charge them $5 to get them back UNLESS you have the HR20,21,H20,21 that is getting all the new HD channels. That would e totally insane on their part.
> 
> Edit: Here is the new tier info: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5616641&&#post5616641


Sorry, I haven't seen this posted anywhere and actually the only proof of it is just that you yourself posted it. I'm not saying you're wrong but no marketing material nor posts on DBSTalk I've seen explains this for legacy customers (doesn't mean I'm not wrong either obviously). Would be great if true.

I only posted what we have seen publically on what the new package entails. If internally it will be different, that hasn't been communicated officialy anywhere I have seen. Again, sorry if I missed the press release or small print on the borchure they emailed out or on the web site.


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## poppagene (Dec 29, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't know how many H10's are active but I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade.


The H10 is not the only Mpeg2 non standalone HD DirecTV receiver -- there are many different models and brands.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

How many people are going to be willing to pay $5 for three channels that don't have any new movies or programs? 
We'll still be getting 9 HD channels - the 4 networks, HBO, Showtime, ESPN, ESPn2 & TNT.
At some point next year we should know if there's going to be an upgrade to the HDtivo or whether we definitely have to choose between the two.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Cudahy said:


> How many people are going to be willing to pay $5 for three channels that don't have any new movies or programs?
> We'll still be getting 9 HD channels - the 4 networks, HBO, Showtime, ESPN, ESPn2 & TNT.
> At some point next year we should know if there's going to be an upgrade to the HDtivo or whether we definitely have to choose between the two.


Would not bet on that long, depends on when the lease on the transponders expire


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

It came off of DORIS. You won't find it on their website or in any brochures. Obviously I can't screen print it due to restrictions or give you my logon. The fact that it isn't on DBSTalk doesn't make it untrue. As Ripley once said "Believe it ..... or NOT.  Maybe we have a TiVo Community Exclusive here!

Aside from all that, it would be plain dumba** stupid of D* to take away 3 of the only 7 HD channels legacy receiver users get and then charge them $5 to get them back.



bonscott87 said:


> Sorry, I haven't seen this posted anywhere and actually the only proof of it is just that you yourself posted it. I'm not saying you're wrong but no marketing material nor posts on DBSTalk I've seen explains this for legacy customers (doesn't mean I'm not wrong either obviously). Would be great if true.
> 
> I only posted what we have seen publically on what the new package entails. If internally it will be different, that hasn't been communicated officialy anywhere I have seen. Again, sorry if I missed the press release or small print on the borchure they emailed out or on the web site.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> Aside from all that, it would be plain dumba** stupid of D* to take away 3 of the only 7 HD channels legacy receiver users get and then charge them $5 to get them back.


Amen to that! :up:


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

incog-neato said:


> Aside from all that, it would be plain dumba** stupid of D* to take away 3 of the only 7 HD channels legacy receiver users get and then charge them $5 to get them back.


Why?

It would just force the issue that people will have to convert... or move along to another carrier.

The former being what they want to push, so they can completely shutdown the MPEG-2 feeds (which they are going to do, and have to do).

The latter... is something they know is going to happen for part of the population.

While I don't think 12/15 is the "HD Dark Date"... and they may very well continue to grandfather legacy users for a limited period of time.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

People high up the chain at D* said they will keep status quo on the "basic 7" for the forseeable future. And no, there are no links, or pdf files.

"Or move along to another carrier" - LOL, there's a great marketing program. I can see the TV ads now. " DirecTV ... if you don't like us ... leave" 

Besides, we were mainly talking about D* NOT charging $5 extra for the XtraPack to legacy only customers. As far as when they switch over, everyone can argue that forever. It certainly won't be for at least a year for the "basic 7".



ebonovic said:


> Why?
> 
> It would just force the issue that people will have to convert... or move along to another carrier.
> 
> ...


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

incog-neato said:


> Aside from all that, it would be plain dumba** stupid of D* to take away 3 of the only 7 HD channels legacy receiver users get and then charge them $5 to get them back.





ebonovic said:


> Why?


gee, kinda self explanatory, dontcha think?

there are people who want to remain with their hr10s as long as possible rather than get involved with that non-intuitive ui mess of the hr20. my 78 year old mother being one of them.

although its ok fro me, setting her up with an hr20 would be like asking her to land an f-16 on an aircraft carrier.

and to penalize people like her just so they can get another $5 for almost half of their already meager offer would pretty much take the cake in greed, and be the height of stupid.

i can understand it for the new load of channels, but not for mpeg2 viewers.

if they wanna get people upgraded, doing it by nickel and diming them isnt something they want to be associated with: it would only serve to piss people off and would be a real 'backdoor' play.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> It came off of DORIS.


So am I supposed to know what "DORIS" is? 
I'm still not saying you're wrong but I guess I just don't get it.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

are you serious? youve no idea what doris is, and youre a dtv customer?


wow.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Let me guess: Director Of Retroactively Insulting Subscribers?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> are you serious? youve no idea what doris is, and youre a dtv customer?
> 
> wow.


Been a customer going on 12 years. Never heard of Doris, sorry. I must not be "on the inside" or one of the cool kids on the block.


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## onin24eagle (Feb 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Been a customer going on 12 years. Never heard of Doris, sorry. I must not be "on the inside" or one of the cool kids on the block.


Same here. WTF is Doris?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

LOL! Sorry, if I told you I'd have to kill you.  .... ask your friends on DBSTalk. They must all know who Doris, sorry DORIS, is. If you can't believe what she tells you there is no one else to believe. She loves to be used.


bonscott87 said:


> So am I supposed to know what "DORIS" is?
> I'm still not saying you're wrong but I guess I just don't get it.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Oh, She might also be known as SMS to friends who don't know her so intimately. 


bonscott87 said:


> So am I supposed to know what "DORIS" is?
> I'm still not saying you're wrong but I guess I just don't get it.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

She's got a beak but she's not a chick:


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

I absolutely hate it when somebody throws in acronyms just to make themselves sound smarter. And I always enjoyed the looks on their face, when I would tell a presenter at a meeting - " I liked your presentation, but now please repeat it in English so everybody else can understand what you just said" 
DORIS stands for DIRECTV's Online Reference Information System. You get access to it you are working for DircTV or are a wholesaler. Why couldn't you spell it out for some of us who don't know or don't care to know every acronym in a world?


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> What's the rush?


I don't know that there's really a "rush", but they are paying for the 3 110 transponders. 119 carries a lot of international stations, so I don't think they'll want to shut that down. However, 110 certainly costs them money they don't want to spend.



HiDefGator said:


> I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade. They only sold a few hundred thousand HR10's to start with and many have been swapped out for HR20's already.
> ...
> The sooner they do the sooner they can reclaim all that bandwith on the older sat's for SD channels.


I have an HR10 and they've never offered me anything. I seriously doubt they will add any more SD channels. I also doubt they'll give any bits back to the SD channels they raped to support HD in the first place. Maybe you haven't noticed how bad all the SD channels look vs. years past. They've won awards for the variable field encoding -- the edges of the screen are encoded at a lower bit rate than the center.



rickmeoff said:


> so people who are paying for and receiving their hd channels (9.99/mo) are suddenly going to wake up in a month, notice that theyre missing several channels and be made to pay extra to get them back?


More or less. But that's still not a "price increase" says Directv executives. Even if there is a grandfather clause, I'm certain DTV will screw it up.



bonscott87 said:


> Well, there is nothing sudden about it. DirecTV has mailed full color borchure to people over the past few weeks that explain the package changes.


I've not seen one. But, I never look at my printed bill, so no surprise there.

[BTW, DORIS = "DIRECTV Order Resource Information System" Not many non-employees get to see it. Think _intranet_. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean your CSR will (a) read it, or (b) know what to do with what they've read.]


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Lighten up bro' it was a JOKE ..... 

The other reason was that as soon as you post a comment about D* the attack dogs from the other boards come scampering over asking for proof and links and screenprints and saying you don't know crap because you don't have 27,000 posts or you don't spend your life on here or there (it's particularily flattering when the head attack dogs come to discredit you ).  So that was a little hint that just maybe it doesn't take 340,000 posts to have some useful and current information. 


samo said:


> I absolutely hate it when somebody throws in acronyms just to make themselves sound smarter. And I always enjoyed the looks on their face, when I would tell a presenter at a meeting - " I liked your presentation, but now please repeat it in English so everybody else can understand what you just said"
> DORIS stands for DIRECTV's Online Reference Information System. You get access to it you are working for DircTV or are a wholesaler. Why couldn't you spell it out for some of us who don't know or don't care to know every acronym in a world?


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Ahhhhhmen! Never a truer word has ever been spoken.


cramer said:


> that doesn't necessarily mean your CSR will (a) read it, or (b) know what to do with what they've read.]


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

samo said:


> I absolutely hate it when somebody throws in acronyms just to make themselves sound smarter.


wowee, i always wondered why acronyms existed. now i know its so people can use them so that they 'can sound smarter.'

thanks for clearing that up, and bol.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Been a customer going on 12 years. Never heard of Doris, sorry. I must not be "on the inside" or one of the cool kids on the block.


 dont sell yourself short: ive read many of your posts, and by golly youre definitely one of the cool kids.

i had no idea what 'doris' was either (although, i do now), but i just wanted to make myself 'sound smarter,' while making you feel inferior.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> dont sell yourself short: ive read many of your posts, and by golly youre definitely one of the cool kids.
> 
> i had no idea what 'doris' was either (although, i do now), but i just wanted to make myself 'sound smarter,' while making you feel inferior.


LOL. Don't tell RS4 that I'm part of the cool crowd.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

garywj said:


> I have had FIOS TV for almost a year. The FIOS team don't view themselves as a cable company as a result the don't adhere to any of the agrements between the Industry and the FCC. I. IE.. they don't support FireWire. They came out with a new guide system a few months ago and it is a mess. They left out several functions and those that are there don't work well. They talk all the time about their bandwidth and they will compete with everyone when it comes to HD channels but D* now has 77 nation wide channels and FIOS added A&EHD to give us 23.
> They keep raising the prices on hardware and services. I think the Verizon HQ is not happy with the revanew picture for FIOS TV and they are slowing things down.


it's complex but verizon doesn't consider themselves cable but neither does the government (at times- sometimes yes, sometimes no) and neither does cable. Cable wont allow them to join cablelabs so verizon has to try and make their systems work to industry standards without any help from the evil cable empire.

If you had tivo S3 or Tivo HD units then you would get the tivo guide and the fios guide wouldn't matter. Or did they mess up cablecards when they changed the guide?

Also in their last quarter conference call they announced they expect their fiber investment to break even in 2008. That's way sooner then the analysts thought possible and much much much sooner then anyone else in the industry thought possible- other telcos and cable company's openly mocked verizon for doing fiber to the premises instead of fiber to the neighborhood and said they would NEVER make their money back. That's like 3 years since their commercial roll out- it's not common for new technology to make money in just 3 years- just ask tivo and even DBS. So if anything verizon might just speed up their deployment plans going forward.

One significant pitfall- they apparently have said they plan to go to an IPTV system in a few years instead of their current system that behaves like industry standard cable once it gets to the coax in your home. So it's not clear that cablecard devices and digital cable ready devices will work forever on the verizon system.


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## f0gax (Aug 8, 2002)

20TIL6 said:


> If you can get FiOS with a TiVo S3 or TiVo HD, then you already have the best option that exists. The bandwidth of FiOS broadband, the PQ is reported to be awesome, and all the features of a standalone TiVo S3 or HD... DirecTV has nothing to counter with in my opinion. I wouldn't be able to cancel DTV fast enough if I had FiOS in my area.


Had FiOS installed on Sunday (yes, Sunday) and had the TivoHD tuned a football game on the OTA and the FiOS HD channels, and switched back and forth. I couldn't tell the difference on my 46" Sammy DLP. FWIW.

And the install went so smooth. 2 hours as opposed to their quoted 4-6 hours.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cramer said:


> I don't know that there's really a "rush", but they are paying for the 3 110 transponders. 119 carries a lot of international stations, so I don't think they'll want to shut that down. However, 110 certainly costs them money they don't want to spend.....]


someone else said something about leasing transponders too.

As far as I know directv OWNS all it's transponder licences (well at least on 99,101,103,110, and 119- 72 and the FTA thing they lease or whatever). And they own the birds sitting at those 5 main slots. So there is no real major ongoing cost besides the uplink center for those. They likely do want to chase MPEG2 off those tp's if for nothing else but to put more SD shopping and PPV channels up to make them more money (maybe to add more HD in MPEG4 there or maybe to increase PQ for SD or maybe to add new SD).

119 they own half the transponder licenses so I assume they will service that slot forever.

110 is just 3 tps (might have 110 and 119 backwards)- and DISH owns like the other 30ish ones at that slot. So at some point when directv runs out of half working satellites to plug in the 110 spot they might not want to spend the money for a new sat and launch to fill that space- THEN they might try to make a deal with DISH or someone else. But as long as they have working (even crippled but able to sent 3 TP's) Ku birds floating around up there to service it then there's no reason not to keep using it- as far as I can see. They'd likley rather get locals off 72 becasue at some point they need to give that back to the canucks (maybe 2008 or was it 2009?) and then I'd venture to guess they'd want to get off that FTA slot that they lease for foreign language channels - since that has a lease cost involved.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. Don't tell RS4 that I'm part of the cool crowd.


I guess cool was not the word I was thinking of - more along the lines of trouble maker - as in stirring up the pot  - like the brilliant thread you started in this forum when D* started broadcasting some of the new channels   or those cute little "take it or leave us" jabs that you like to throw around   No, I'd have admit that cool was not at the top of my list


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Not to quote a few of the posts:

1) If you think it is going to be more then a year before they shut-off MPEG-2 SAT... think again. MLB EI will be in MPEG-4, Sunday Ticket will be in MPEG-4... they are going to first shut down DNS that are in MPEG-2... followed by the other channels. 

They have some hard deadlines, on where they MUST get the Locals off the 72 sat, and where do you think they are going to go? 101/110/119

2) How many HR10-250's do you think are out there active right now? It isn't as many as you may want to think, and they know they are going to upset part of that population... but in the end... it is the cost of the transition to new technology

3) There is more then enough precidence (sp?) for continuing to charge a "higher" fee for older technology... Cingular has done it (and still is), charging a $5 fee for those that want to continue with older technology, to force them to either pay more... or move to new technology.

They know people will leave... 
They know people will ask for credits (and some will get them).

But honestly... the fire is going to be lit under the feat of the MPEG-2 holdouts....
Before they go cold turkey on them.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Earl-

Just curious- do you know when they have to get off 72?

Also I think they sold more like TENS of thousands of HR10's as opposed to hundreds of thousands. So I'd agree there will be a relatively small amount as a percentage of D* subs left. Many already moved to the HR20 or got fed up and went back to cable with the Series 3 tivo's. 

At some point they need to draw the line.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> 1) If you think it is going to be more then a year before they shut-off MPEG-2 SAT... think again. MLB EI will be in MPEG-4, Sunday Ticket will be in MPEG-4... they are going to first shut down DNS that are in MPEG-2... followed by the other channels.


Generally, people aren't concerned about the HD sports packages. We know those are moving to MPEG4 next season. The point is, they aren't going to kill all MPEG2 HD next month. Will they all be gone in '08? '09? Only DTV can answer that, and I don't think they have an answer yet. There's also the broadcast agreements that will limit when they can kill all the MPEG2 channels -- as in, they aren't _allowed_ to transcode them to MPEG4; that's why DTV doesn't have a single Voom channel.



> They have some hard deadlines, on where they MUST get the Locals off the 72 sat, and where do you think they are going to go? 101/110/119


99 and 103. Nobody said they have to be SD MPEG2, nor has anyone said everything in the Ka band has to be MPEG4.



> 2) How many HR10-250's do you think are out there active right now?


I'd bet a hell of a lot more than you _think_. But it's still a very small percentage. They never sold very well because they were always insanely expensive and DTV had very little HD content to justify the cost to most people.



> 3) There is more then enough precidence...


NOT from Directv. They have a long history of grandfathering people when channel packages and prices change. The HD Extra Tier is the first time I can recall DTV screwing their existing (HR20/21) customers like that.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

There are a LOT of reasons why DirecTV doesn't have any VOOM Channels.

HBO is converting ALL of their broadcasts to MPEG-4 in Early 2008 (January I think)... do you think DirecTV is going to take the MPEG-4 HBO, and re-encod it to MPEG-2?

I don't think they are killing it in December (that is someone elses claim)... but I don't think it will be too far into 2008... and I would be willing to bet just about anything that it will definetly be in 2008.. .not into 2009.

Universal is still in MPEG-2, but all the other NBC/Universal channels are already in MPEG-4... do you think if there was a clause in the contract, that it was not re-negotiated by now when they worked out the carraige agreements for the new channels.

Same goes for Discovery.

ESPN and ESPN-2, they may fall into that same boat when the ESPN-News becomes available.

HDNet/HDMovies is a different battle that is going on now.

Showtime is already providing feeds to DirecTV, and I bet that was also discussed if there where any restrictions...

So for most of the existing channels, I pretty confident that any restrictions that were there... based on contracts have been resolved... but hey... maybe not. 
-----------

99 and 103... That would require new dish installs for people in those markets...
And per some documents that were leaked out, the "new" installs are to include at least a phase III dish, which would be 101/110/119... And you are correct not everyting in KA is going to be MPEG-4 (Regardless of it's resolution)

2) - I estimate about 125-150 thousand units... given that there were around 250,000 at it's peek... and my estimate of 125,000 is on the high side I think.

3) But over the last two pricing changes, "grandfathering" was short lived or not aplied.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> Earl-
> 
> Just curious- do you know when they have to get off 72?
> 
> ...


IIRC: It is sometime in 2008... but I don't know an exact date.

As for the HR10's... I believe the last stated number, was up in the 250k range.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'd agree complety with 250k HR10's at peak. Sorry I wasn't very clear- english aint my best persuit- LOL

25 tens as opposed to several hundreds of thousands. I guess 2 hundreds of thousands would be accurate- i just didn't speak/type so well...


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Everyone forgets about the hundreds of thousands of NON-DVR plain old hd MPEG2 receivers out there they have to swap out which is a large part of the reason they won't be shutting down mpeg 2 as soon as many people think.


MichaelK said:


> Earl-
> 
> Just curious- do you know when they have to get off 72?
> 
> ...


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

incog-neato said:


> Everyone forgets about the hundreds of thousands of NON-DVR plain old hd MPEG2 receivers out there they have to swap out which is a large part of the reason they won't be shutting down mpeg 2 as soon as many people think.


On the Directv conference call today the CEO said by the end of the year they will have around 500,000 active HD mpeg2 boxes still in use. Most are not DVR's. Apparently that number is dropping fast because those paying for HD want all the HD not just the mpg2 HD. He also said it was in Directv's best interest to delay dropping all mpeg2 HD as long as possible to allow natural attrition to lower that number before they had to swap them out. Of course he didn't say they wouldn't encourage those people to swap by slowly removing all the mpg2 HD channels.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

He also said by early next year the HD DVR would only cost them roughly $140 to manufacture.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Standard Definition LOCAL MARKETS LAUNCH
Effective 11/15/07 DIRECTV will be taking preemptive measures to ensure that the markets listed below will be able to view their future roll-out of local *STANDARD DEFINITION * channels. In order for customers to view their local *STANDARD DEFINITION * channels they must have High-Definition MPEG4 capable equipment.

Specific Markets:
 Bangor, ME
 Harrisonburg, VA
 Dothan, AL
 Odessa-Midland, TX
 Beaumont-Port Arthur, TX
 Butte-Bozeman, MT
 Palm Springs, CA
Hardware Requirements:
 DIRECTV HD receiver (or DVR)
 5-LNB Multi Satellite KaKu Dish


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> He also said it was in Directv's best interest to delay dropping all mpeg2 HD as long as possible to allow natural attrition to lower that number before they had to swap them out. Of course he didn't say they wouldn't encourage those people to swap by slowly removing all the mpg2 HD channels.


Exactly. Which is why IMO ...the longer you wait the better the HR20 deals will get. I know that bonscott will disagree stating that "D* just doesn't care if they lose these people as customers," but they _do_ care, and _do not _ want to lose _any_ customers if they can prevent it.

Right now the HR20 is in demand. Things will slow down, and D* will eventually get to the business of making offers to the H10/HR10 holdouts.

In the mean time AFAIC ...there's absolutely no rush to get rid of my remaining HR10's and get more than 1 HR20. Just not worth it to me.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> Exactly. Which is why IMO ...the longer you wait the better the HR20 deals will get. I know that bonscott will disagree stating that "D* just doesn't care if they lose these people as customers," but they _do_ care, and _do not _ want to lose _any_ customers if they can prevent it.
> 
> Right now the HR20 is in demand. Things will slow down, and D* will eventually get to the business of making offers to the H10/HR10 holdouts.
> 
> In the mean time AFAIC ...there's absolutely no rush to get rid of my remaining HR10's and get more than 1 HR20. Just not worth it to me.


However... even in today's webcast/conference call... the discussed how they are clamp down even more on credits... use more systems and calculations to determine customer viability... and that is going to directly relate to any "deals" you get.

Honestly... they don't care in some cases... if it is going to cost the more to keep them. This is a continuing trend in the last 3 QTR meetings, and one that they even drove home even more in todays.

Honestly... I wouldn't hold your breath on them making "big deals" to hold outs...
They had their early wave of UPGRADE offers a few months back... and they hae allocated a certain amount of funds for more transition boxes.

But don't expect them to bend over backwards to keep ever MPEG-2 legacy customer. It will reach a point of diminishing returns.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Sir_winealot said:


> Exactly. Which is why IMO ...the longer you wait the better the HR20 deals will get. I know that bonscott will disagree stating that "D* just doesn't care if they lose these people as customers," but they _do_ care, and _do not _ want to lose _any_ customers if they can prevent it.
> 
> Right now the HR20 is in demand. Things will slow down, and D* will eventually get to the business of making offers to the H10/HR10 holdouts.
> 
> In the mean time AFAIC ...there's absolutely no rush to get rid of my remaining HR10's and get more than 1 HR20. Just not worth it to me.


How good of a deal are you waiting for? I got 3 HR20's and I paid less than $100 each for them after credits. And others have done better than me.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

No-one has mentioned the extra bandwidth that removing the MPEG2 streams will provide. There is no sense in transmitting the same content in both formats for too long. Something's got to give.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the MPEG2 content disappearing in the near future. The question of the non-DVR upgrades is a comparative non-issue. There is no reason for users not to switch to newer boxes as the interface is far less important to them than the TiVo issue is to many here.

Many of the hold-outs with HR10s have at least one HR20/21 and, although vocal here, I'll bet a lot of them actually don't hate it as much as they make out. I'm not taking sides, I have both, but I'm just sayin'.


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## David Scavo (Dec 14, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't know how many H10's are active but I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade.


I have an HR-10 and I haven't been contacted by DirecTV in any fashion about any HD equipment upgrades.

Still holding out for an MPEG-4 HDTivo


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Unless you reside is specific DMA's (mostly in the LA area) there probably won't be any outbound initiatives made to you. You need to call them (if you want of course). They are only directly contacting customers in specific areas.


David Scavo said:


> I have an HR-10 and I haven't been contacted by DirecTV in any fashion about any HD equipment upgrades.
> 
> Still holding out for an MPEG-4 HDTivo


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Then you WILL be surprised. 

As for Non-DVR's it's definately an issue as they still will have to replace, sell, swap out maybe a half-million or more non-DVR boxes and setup installs for new dishes. It has nothing to do with an interface, it has a lot to do with all those customers suddenly having no HD programming if they pull it off Ku too quickly or without notification. Their call centers will be flooded. I can speak from experience from the call center side. If service levels drop the sh, er, crap hits the fan. If 5% of those customers start calling wondering where their programming went ... ouch.


TonyTheTiger said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see the MPEG2 content disappearing in the near future. The question of the non-DVR upgrades is a comparative non-issue. There is no reason for users not to switch to newer boxes as the interface is far less important to them than the TiVo issue is to many here..


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

incog-neato said:


> Then you WILL be surprised.
> 
> As for Non-DVR's it's definately an issue as they still will have to replace, sell, swap out maybe a half-million or more non-DVR boxes and setup installs for new dishes. It has nothing to do with an interface, *it has a lot to do with all those customers suddenly having no HD programming if they pull it off Ku too quickly or without notification.* Their call centers will be flooded. I can speak from experience from the call center side. If service levels drop the sh, er, crap hits the fan. If 5% of those customers start calling wondering where their programming went ... ouch.


No-one suggested that they would do this! I'm not talking about overnight or this ridiculous December 15th deadline that's been suggested, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that it'll be before the start of the next NFL season if not earlier.

Just as HR10 owners have been offered free or nearly free upgrades, so will HD receiver owners. In fact, as it's more profitable, I'm sure some may even get lured into the HR20/21 too.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> How good of a deal are you waiting for? I got 3 HR20's and I paid less than $100 each for them after credits. And others have done better than me.


I'm looking for 3 free HR20's to replace my remaining HR10's, a year free of HD service and having 3 months of my mortgage payments covered. 

Personally, _I'm _ not looking for a deal at all as I've got one HR20 now that doesn't get used. But as an HR10/H10 owner I would expect to get swapped out for the price of S&H ...whether that be by credits issued or a straight swap ...would not make a difference.

I have no doubts that this type offer will be available to customers_ near the time of D* turning off mpeg2 HD_, so that they can continue to enjoy their HD programming experience from D*.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Just as HR10 owners have been offered free or nearly free upgrades, so will HD receiver owners. In fact, as it's more profitable, I'm sure some may even get lured into the HR20/21 too.


And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a good many H10/HR10 owners have yet to be offered _anything_ in terms of an upgrade, and aren't even aware that one is available.

I know *I* was never offered a thing, and received nothing from D* in any way-shape-or form.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Exactly. Which is why IMO ...the longer you wait the better the HR20 deals will get. I know that bonscott will disagree stating that "D* just doesn't care if they lose these people as customers," but they _do_ care, and _do not _ want to lose _any_ customers if they can prevent it.
> 
> Right now the HR20 is in demand. Things will slow down, and D* will eventually get to the business of making offers to the H10/HR10 holdouts.
> 
> In the mean time AFAIC ...there's absolutely no rush to get rid of my remaining HR10's and get more than 1 HR20. Just not worth it to me.


No, DirecTV does care...to a point. As Earl mentioned at some point it will cost more to try to get people to switch then it will to just let them go.

They said they have 500,000 MPEG2 HD customers left by years end and dropping fast. All they need to do is get those customers 1 MPEG4 box and since most are non-DVR people that's pretty easy since the H21 is cheap already, free in most installs.

I'd say their strategy is pretty smart. Go the next 6 months or so and let people come to them for upgrades. With all the channels that is already happening quickly. The "best" customers are those with sport subscriptions and those people are already on the fast track to get an MPEG4 box on their own. Extra Innings will only accelerate that. In the meantime they will be contacting customers in LA to get them converted as they *will* shut down LA DNS in MPEG2 quickly (which they wanted to do nearly 2 years ago now). That alone will free up a bunch of bandwidth and give them some more time.

Then when Sunday Ticket next year is in MPEG4 only you can bet many who have "held out" will get a box. So my guess is next fall they will be shutting the MPEG2 HD channels down. But hey, it's just my guess.

Honestly I could care less when they shut down MPEG2 HD. Next year or 5 years from now, just doesn't matter to me.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a good many H10/HR10 owners have yet to be offered _anything_ in terms of an upgrade, and aren't even aware that one is available.
> 
> I know *I* was never offered a thing, and received nothing from D* in any way-shape-or form.


Well, that's a fact. They even said on the conference call that they haven't contacted anyone yet but they would start doing so in the LA market because they want to shut down LA DNS HD in MPEG2 yesterday.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

incog-neato said:


> Everyone forgets about the hundreds of thousands of NON-DVR plain old hd MPEG2 receivers out there they have to swap out which is a large part of the reason they won't be shutting down mpeg 2 as soon as many people think.


I could be off but I beleive they said on their quarterly conference calls that they had 600,000 HD boxes deployed before the mpeg4 came along. I'd have to guess through attrition and the the addition of MPEG4 locals to more than 50% of the populations and the new MPEG4 stuff added that a good portion of the plain mpeg2 HD boxes have been swapped. But still might be 100,000 or 2.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

incog-neato said:


> Everyone forgets about the hundreds of thousands of NON-DVR plain old hd MPEG2 receivers out


and also that hdtivo is also gonna be useful for OTA and SD with a nice big hard drive  so it wont be useless.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> On the Directv conference call today the CEO said by the end of the year they will have around 500,000 active HD mpeg2 boxes still in use. Most are not DVR's. Apparently that number is dropping fast because those paying for HD want all the HD not just the mpg2 HD. He also said it was in Directv's best interest to delay dropping all mpeg2 HD as long as possible to allow natural attrition to lower that number before they had to swap them out. Of course he didn't say they wouldn't encourage those people to swap by slowly removing all the mpg2 HD channels.


wow- I'm shocked more people than that haven;t moved from mpeg2 to mpeg4. maybe my 600,000 starting point was way off...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

incog-neato said:


> Standard Definition LOCAL MARKETS LAUNCH
> Effective 11/15/07 DIRECTV will be taking preemptive measures to ensure that the markets listed below will be able to view their future roll-out of local *STANDARD DEFINITION * channels. In order for customers to view their local *STANDARD DEFINITION * channels they must have High-Definition MPEG4 capable equipment.
> 
> Specific Markets:
> ...


you obviously can ask doris, but i beleive alaska is also mpeg4 SD and maybe even hawaii?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> ...
> 
> Honestly... they don't care in some cases... if it is going to cost the more to keep them. This is a continuing trend in the last 3 QTR meetings, and one that they even drove home even more in todays.
> ....


exactly at some point they figure it's cheaper to get a new customer that spends as much as you then to give you X amount of credits to stay.

So if one has a cow and demands 700 in credits but they figure a new sub spends as much as you but only costs them 600 to steal from cable then you can take a walk.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> He also said by early next year the HD DVR would only cost them roughly $140 to manufacture.


But they'll still charge you $299 "lease upgrade" for harware you still don't own, and $749 to buy it out right. Personally, I think the FCC should stand up and make DTV AND DISH return every penny they stole from subscribers for all these "lease upgrade" fees. Comments like that are cast iron proof they're screwing us.

The people who have standard, non-DVR, receivers shouldn't be much of an impedament to MPEG4 rollout. Those receivers are extremely cheap and simple. If DTV wants to replace my Sony SAT-B2, they're welcome to do so. (of course, it's attached to a 19" tube tv.) However, I'm not paying them _anything_ nor am I signing _any_ contract. The SD receivers are in the sub-$20 range -- I've taken several apart and marveled at how they get all that from a Z80 and TI DSP -- there's a reason "4 room systems" have been free for 5+ years. The HD one's are more expensive, but still much less than my bill every month.

DTV has millions of customers. While they certainly should care about continuing to get our money, there are simply too few HR10's (ever) to be worth the costs or hassle. I doubt even a single email would be sent if 250k HR10 owners canceled at the exact same instant. We aren't even a rounding error in their total revenues. Now if they lost every TIVO owner, that'd show up in SEC filings.  Tivo users tend to be very attached to the tivo interface (understatement of the year.) So I'm not very surprised that a lot of HR10's are still in use. Mine will still be in use long after MPEG2 HD is forgotten.

PS: Ed seems to be forgetting all the mess from the original launch of locals. Many people needed a dual or triple LNB dish to get locals. That all changed when the spot beams were turned on. I remember Charlotte, NC locals being on 110 for a while. So, don't think DTV won't put SD locals on 99 and/or 103. Just don't expect them to switch existing MPEG2 SD locals (via spot beam) to MPEG4. There's about 8m receivers they'd have to replace before they did that.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

cramer said:


> Now if they lost every TIVO owner, that'd show up in SEC filings.  Tivo users tend to be very attached to the tivo interface (understatement of the year.)


Actually as Tivo quoted in their Q2 conference call they are losing 140,000+ DirecTV subs every quarter and growing rapidly. Meanwhile DirecTV is signing up record numbers of subs per quarter. So DirecTV subs with DirecTivo's (all of them, SD and HD) are shrinking fast but either most of those subs aren't leaving or if they are they are being replaced 2 for 1 by new subs. In other words DirecTV isn't concerned about the Tivo users leaving because so far they haven't or they've been easy to replace. Either way their bottom line is better which is all they care about in the end.

Those few that hold on that DirecTV just must bring back Tivo or they are doomed to fail just aren't reading the facts of the situation. If they brought back Tivo then great, happy day. But they certainly don't *have* to do it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> He also said by early next year the HD DVR would only cost them roughly $140 to manufacture.


Actually what he said was that the cost of the HD DVR that is in inventory is still around $430 to $440 each. They hope that by end of first quarter next year to have that down to $250 each.

Conference call transcript: http://seekingalpha.com/article/53310-directv-q3-2007-earnings-call-transcript


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cramer said:


> But they'll still charge you $299 "lease upgrade" for harware you still don't own, and $749 to buy it out right. Personally, I think the FCC should stand up and make DTV AND DISH return every penny they stole from subscribers for all these "lease upgrade" fees. Comments like that are cast iron proof they're screwing us.
> ....


would make one wonder if the NCTA makes another filing to the FCC about how DBS should have to play by the 3rd party tuner rules like cable does....

At some point though that will have to stop as more and more people go HD- they just wont be able to justify it compared to cable. Then again I've been saying that for years now and it hasn't seemed to stop them- so i guess i'm missing something. 

Comcast did say the other day they have more HD subs then DISH and Directv combined so maybe that's the result- but it sure isn't hurting DBS' bottom line.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree with you 100%.

The only call (followed by a USMail and Email) I got from D* was telling me the HR10-250 will have a software upgrade in the first QUARTER (that takes us till the end of March) of 2008 "to increase my viewing enjoyment" and they even named some new features. They never even hinted at upgrading hardware to get the new programming.

That call tells me 2 things:

#1) They aren't rushing to get rid of the legacy users and the 7 mpeg 2 channels (or why would they have wasted the effort & expense to even make that call, and mail the letter and email?). If they were trying was to get everyone to switch post haste they would have just said nothing at all or called to warn us to upgrade now.

#2) They are in no hurry to dump the legacy customers.

However, on the other hand, a simple email FROM ME via the D* website got me 1 of my 3 HR10's upgraded at no charge to an HR21<grrr, wanted a 20>, new dish & 1 yr of HD access. I could have got the other 2 replaced for $50 each but I figure I'll make use of my protection plan when the time is ripe. I stuck the HR21 in my home office connected to my computer monitor and Slingbox just to have one to play with at home.

In most cases, don't expect to be offered anything right now. You'll have to make the effort to contact them. The deals are still there if one takes the initiative.



Sir_winealot said:


> And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a good many H10/HR10 owners have yet to be offered _anything_ in terms of an upgrade, and aren't even aware that one is available.
> 
> I know *I* was never offered a thing, and received nothing from D* in any way-shape-or form.


----------



## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

That came by email.  It just reflects current launches.



MichaelK said:


> you obviously can ask doris, but i beleive alaska is also mpeg4 SD and maybe even hawaii?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually what he said was that the cost of the HD DVR that is in inventory is still around $430 to $440 each. They hope that by end of first quarter next year to have that down to $250 each.
> 
> Conference call transcript: http://seekingalpha.com/article/53310-directv-q3-2007-earnings-call-transcript


It was hard to follow his answers on the phone. Especially with my kids screaming in the background. Hard to believe I heard it that wrong though...


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

cramer said:


> Generally, people aren't concerned about the HD sports packages. We know those are moving to MPEG4 next season. .


Don't think so, at least from the posts over at dbstalk by everyone screaming that their football game was not broadcast in HD, think they are a lot more concerned then what you think.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

sjberra said:


> Don't think so, at least from the posts over at dbstalk by everyone screaming that their football game was not broadcast in HD, think they are a lot more concerned then what you think.


And the multi-dozen page thread about NHL Center Ice in HD.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

As noted in the conference call today.... their current "blitz" of advertising is not just to attact new customers... but also to let their current customers know what is out there on the system.

Which at least at this point.... is directly tied to letting those HD customers know, that there is a lot more out there then what they are getting now.

And then when that person calls, or goes and does research to find out whey they are not getting it... boom... they find out they need new equipment.

They have recently in the LA area, started to call customers that are legacy equipment... as guess what is the first set of MPEG-2 channels to go bye-bye... LA DNS



incog-neato said:


> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> The only call (followed by a USMail and Email) I got from D* was telling me the HR10-250 will have a software upgrade in the first QUARTER (that takes us till the end of March) of 2008 "to increase my viewing enjoyment" and they even named some new features. They never even hinted at upgrading hardware to get the new programming.
> 
> ...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> It was hard to follow his answers on the phone. Especially with my kids screaming in the background. Hard to believe I heard it that wrong though...


Actually we're both right. Farther down in the transcript he talks about the cost of the "standard" HD receiver, non DVR. H20/H21. Those are the numbers you posted.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't know how many H10's are active but I doubt there are many HR10's that they haven't already offered to upgrade. They only sold a few hundred thousand HR10's to start with and many have been swapped out for HR20's already.


I've been offered to upgrade, but I'm not giving up my HR10 for nothing. Oddly I got one last January for free and giving up my HR10 wasn't part of the deal. Now the deals they've offered require surrendering the HR10 to them. I'm not trading a box I own for a rental. I guess I'll see what happens as the actual turn off date nears.


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## Matt L (Aug 13, 2000)

You know the one, and only one, thing that would get an HR20 into my home tomorrow would be to drop the 2 year commitment. I've sub'd D for over 7 years, if they can't trust me with a piece of their equipment, I've always bought my own, then they really don't want my business.

I've read enough about the HR20 to know It's not gonna be my favorite piece of equipment, but I would not be adverse to adding it to the pile of equipment sitting under my TV and paying a mirroring fee. But --- just don't expect me to pay $300 for the privilege to use it, or be tied to you for 2 years, just so you can make more money.


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## dthreet (Jan 18, 2006)

sgmorton said:


> So I got the call from D* last night your HD equipment is old and blah blah...
> 
> I called the number back to see what my options are. The rep told me she would replace my unit for free but could not promise a certain model on the replacement. She then went on to tell me how I was missing out on some 35 channels of HD that I would be getting if I upgraded. I also confirmed this reset the 2 year agreement.
> 
> ...


I think the perosn you spoke with that told you december 15th you would get ota only has no clue what there talking about. December 15th you have to upgrade to the HD extra pack to get most of the older mpeg 2 hd channels. I think its $4.99 extra a month. I think directv is starting to offer people in some markets free upgrade to the HR20 and HR21 that have HR10-250's. I would not cancel directv over some mixed up phone call. Alot of people after they get use to the new dvr like it better. I hated it at first, now I love it. No burps on any of my new hd channels. There is like 75 new hd channels now. Since Video On Demand is National now on the HR20-100 and 700, I am in heaven.


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## dthreet (Jan 18, 2006)

PrimeRisk said:


> I've been offered to upgrade, but I'm not giving up my HR10 for nothing. Oddly I got one last January for free and giving up my HR10 wasn't part of the deal. Now the deals they've offered require surrendering the HR10 to them. I'm not trading a box I own for a rental. I guess I'll see what happens as the actual turn off date nears.


your in luck, they dont want you hr10-250


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## barry728 (Apr 14, 2003)

dthreet said:


> your in luck, they dont want you hr10-250


But they do want my HR10-250 in what they called a swap. I told them no.

I will either wait for a better offer, buy the new dish and HR20 and install it myself and keep my hr10-250 too, or buy a new series 3 Tivo and get cable. If Directv shuts me down in December it will be cable.

Unfortunately Fios is not available.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

Matt L said:


> You know the one, and only one, thing that would get an HR20 into my home tomorrow would be to drop the 2 year commitment. I've sub'd D for over 7 years, if they can't trust me with a piece of their equipment, I've always bought my own, then they really don't want my business.
> 
> I've read enough about the HR20 to know It's not gonna be my favorite piece of equipment, but I would not be adverse to adding it to the pile of equipment sitting under my TV and paying a mirroring fee. But --- just don't expect me to pay $300 for the privilege to use it, or be tied to you for 2 years, just so you can make more money.


You've been with them for seven years. You've always bought your own equipment. They are offering a free upgrade with a 2 year commitment. If you stay it costs you nothing. If you leave you are charged the prorated balance of $12.50 a month for each month short of the commitment. What's the big deal?
How do you lose?


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

barry728 said:


> But they do want my HR10-250 in what they called a swap. I told them no.
> 
> I will either wait for a better offer, buy the new dish and HR20 and install it myself and keep my hr10-250 too, or buy a new series 3 Tivo and get cable. If Directv shuts me down in December it will be cable.
> 
> Unfortunately Fios is not available.


I'll let you in on a little secret. They never take the HR10 with them. They don't want to have to throw it away.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

barry728 said:


> But they do want my HR10-250 in what they called a swap. I told them no.


i bet it's just a new csr that only knows of leases. think about it, if you just started work recently, you have no clue people could own their boxes. I would have asked to speak to a boss and ask why you have to give up something you legally own?

heck tell them to put that in a letter and mail it to you. Bet they wont.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Matt L said:


> You know the one, and only one, thing that would get an HR20 into my home tomorrow would be to drop the 2 year commitment. I've sub'd D for over 7 years, if they can't trust me with a piece of their equipment, I've always bought my own, then they really don't want my business.
> 
> I've read enough about the HR20 to know It's not gonna be my favorite piece of equipment, but I would not be adverse to adding it to the pile of equipment sitting under my TV and paying a mirroring fee. But --- just don't expect me to pay $300 for the privilege to use it, or be tied to you for 2 years, just so you can make more money.


ditto.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

HiDefGator said:


> I'll let you in on a little secret. They never take the HR10 with them. They don't want to have to throw it away.


While you are most likely correct, I have read several threads where the installer did take it. It would be much better to get it settled well before the installer shows up. Just my opinion though.


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## CosmoKramer (Jan 23, 2007)

Mark Cuban might delay the 15 switch to two tier HD pricing.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6498679.html


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Edited from the conference call:



> Benjamin Swinburne - Morgan Stanley
> 
> Just a quick question on the MPEG-2 upgrades. I might have the number off, but I think you ended last year with about 800,000 of those in the field. Just trying to get a sense of how many have been done and how many are left and what you think timing of that remaining upgrade is?
> 
> ...


 Which sounds like they will still be content with having 300,000 MPEG2 customers remaining at the end of 2008 who they won't be cutting off. From this it looks like 2008 is good for MPEG2 and probably into 2009 with the last quarter million or so with at least the basic 7 or so channels that are now available.

They do fail to note anywhere in their confernce call that even after 60+ software upgrades since last year the box is still not solid. (Run and hide, here come the attack dogs from the other board! )


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> (Run and hide, here come the attack dogs from the other board! )


Not really. At this point nobody is changing anybody else's mind about things. If you don't want the HR20 then go to cable. That simple really. I certainly don't care either way. In the meantime while you decide I'm enjoying lots and lots of HD on a receiver that has given me no problems in the 1+ years I have had it. Just my experience and that's all I can honestly say about it. Everyone needs to make their own decision on what's best for them.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> If you don't want the HR20 then go to cable. That simple really. I certainly don't care either way.


For someone who doesn't care either way ...and as one of 'Team HR20's' premier members ... I can't _imagine_ how much you would've posted if you _did_.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> For someone who doesn't care either way ...and as one of 'Team HR20's' premier members ... I can't _imagine_ how much you would've posted if you _did_.


  Look, the only thing I've ever done is to correct incorrect statements (or FUD) about the HR20. Nothing more. If others go all nuts so be it. Anyway, lets not go down this path again.

Back to the topic of this thread: No, MPEG2 HD channels will not go dark on Dec 15th. End of story.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Where did I say I didn't want an HR20? I do want one (and I have one), but it has to work properly. I have 2 HR10's and 1 HR21 at home for personal use. The HR21 that was installed just recently at my house only because my wife wanted to watch Nip/Tuck in HD. The HR21 isn't bad (except the first and only season pass I created on it that was for Nip/Tuck only recorded 27 minutes of the premier show). I'm not fond of the remote (too many buttons) but have no problem with the interface. It actually can grow on you. I've worked with the HR20 at work since well before it went on sale. 
My comment was that here is a receiver that has had over 60 software upgrades in approximately 15 months (some national and some interim releases) and each one addresses some sort of problem either due to new features that have been added or to fix existing issues. The problem with that is that there are people who have paid for this device and are basically testers for D* while D* addresses it's problems. That's great if that is your hobby and it's what you enjoy doing as I do. However I'm thinking about the tens or hundreds of thousands of people who bought it just to record TV but never signed on knowing they were to be testers. I hear from these people when they have problems. While we here don't mind being testers to improve the product most of THOSE PEOPLE do. 60+ software fixes (virtually 1 every week) has to say something about the stability of the product. The return (swap) rate is way off the "norm" for what it is in the sample I see. Sure, the TiVo product has some issues as well for some people (but it's also been around far longer). If the HR20/21 worked well 98% of the time I'd be satisfied and would use it as my primary recorder (well, if they gave me back my OTA that is and the 14 sub-channels I lost). So far I'm zero for zero on recording 1 show. In 4 years (and what, 10 or so software upgrades?) I have had no problem with the TiVo product other then a hard-drive that died after 3 years but never missed a recording. If it was Microsoft selling this box they would have been crucified in the press long ago. They need to stop adding features and make what they have work.



bonscott87 said:


> Not really. At this point nobody is changing anybody else's mind about things. If you don't want the HR20 then go to cable. That simple really. I certainly don't care either way. In the meantime while you decide I'm enjoying lots and lots of HD on a receiver that has given me no problems in the 1+ years I have had it. Just my experience and that's all I can honestly say about it. Everyone needs to make their own decision on what's best for them.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Good news. It looks like it'll be at least a year and a half before we have to choose between Tivo and Directv; Plenty of time to see if a Malone directed Directv decides to give Directv customers with a Tivo SD or HD a choice enabling them to stay.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> Where did I say I didn't want an HR20? I do want one (and I have one), but it has to work properly. I have 2 HR10's and 1 HR21 at home for personal use. The HR21 that was installed just recently at my house only because my wife wanted to watch Nip/Tuck in HD. The HR21 isn't bad (except the first and only season pass I created on it that was for Nip/Tuck only recorded 27 minutes of the premier show). I'm not fond of the remote (too many buttons) but have no problem with the interface. It actually can grow on you. I've worked with the HR20 at work since well before it went on sale.
> My comment was that here is a receiver that has had over 60 software upgrades in approximately 15 months (some national and some interim releases) and each one addresses some sort of problem either due to new features that have been added or to fix existing issues. The problem with that is that there are people who have paid for this device and are basically testers for D* while D* addresses it's problems. That's great if that is your hobby and it's what you enjoy doing as I do. However I'm thinking about the tens or hundreds of thousands of people who bought it just to record TV but never signed on knowing they were to be testers. I hear from these people when they have problems. While we here don't mind being testers to improve the product most of THOSE PEOPLE do. 60+ software fixes (virtually 1 every week) has to say something about the stability of the product. The return (swap) rate is way off the "norm" for what it is in the sample I see. Sure, the TiVo product has some issues as well for some people (but it's also been around far longer). If the HR20/21 worked well 98% of the time I'd be satisfied and would use it as my primary recorder (well, if they gave me back my OTA that is and the 14 sub-channels I lost). So far I'm zero for zero on recording 1 show. In 4 years (and what, 10 or so software upgrades?) I have had no problem with the TiVo product other then a hard-drive that died after 3 years but never missed a recording. If it was Microsoft selling this box they would have been crucified in the press long ago. They need to stop adding features and make what they have work.


Keep in mind there haven't been that many national releases. The last one was nearly 3 months ago. The weekly "releases" many times are adding new features or trying something out and let people who want to test them bang on them. Most of the CE weekly releases since August have been all about VOD. Yea sure, bug fixes get in there as well but the CE releases are much more then that.

Just wanted to make that clear. If you feel it's unstable simply because of the beta testing program going on, feel free. If you don't think Tivo and Apple and Microsoft have weekly test release too then you'd be wrong. It's just their's aren't in a public forum like DirecTV has chosen to do it. Each way has pros and cons.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

dthreet said:


> your in luck, they dont want you hr10-250


Err...yes they do. The deals they have offered recently REQUIRE that I "trade-in" my HR10-250 or pay $50 - $100 for the privilege to lease their box.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

PrimeRisk said:


> Err...yes they do. The deals they have offered recently REQUIRE that I "trade-in" my HR10-250 or pay $50 - $100 for the privilege to lease their box.


I did three of those same deals. Never once did the installer actually take the HR10 with him.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

I've read the CE releases .. they all usually have some "stability" fixes built in. That means something is "unstable." They rarely specify what these issues are ... just "stability" updates.

VOD .. they need it to compete with cable, and it really won't come close other then the name. They will never have the number and quality of programming. and customers will need ISP connections but it's definately better then NOT having it. So they are torn between "compete with cable" and "make the basic features work right." It seems add the new features first and worry about getting the basic features working at 98% second is the order of preference.

I would give up the HR10 in a hearbeat (and I REALLY want to) if they could get this new box to do what it is supposed to as often as the HR10 did, er, does. I want the new technology and the new programming. I'd prefer the TiVo interface but I'd give that up in a minute if the 20 was stable as the 10 is. RIght now my HR21 sits hooked up to my 24" computer monitor to (try and) record Nip/Tuck in HD. I'd prefer it hooked to my plasma display but until it "works" well enough it will stay in the basement.



bonscott87 said:


> Keep in mind there haven't been that many national releases. The last one was nearly 3 months ago. The weekly "releases" many times are adding new features or trying something out and let people who want to test them bang on them. Most of the CE weekly releases since August have been all about VOD. Yea sure, bug fixes get in there as well but the CE releases are much more then that.
> 
> Just wanted to make that clear. If you feel it's unstable simply because of the beta testing program going on, feel free. If you don't think Tivo and Apple and Microsoft have weekly test release too then you'd be wrong. It's just their's aren't in a public forum like DirecTV has chosen to do it. Each way has pros and cons.


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## XBR (May 17, 2002)

PrimeRisk said:


> Err...yes they do. The deals they have offered recently REQUIRE that I "trade-in" my HR10-250 or pay $50 - $100 for the privilege to lease their box.


I was contacted with the "no commitment" swap deal last week. I let the CSR completely finish her pitch and then declared that the deal-breaker was that they wanted to take my HR10-250 away. I told her that because I bought it, I own it and I was going to run it into the ground--there was no way I was going to let them take it away. She paused and kind of read the part of her notes out loud that said "if the customer insists, the customer may retain their old equipment." I said "I insist" and that I wanted it in writing, so she put it into the "order notes."

A couple of days later, I contacted the local installer to confirm that they had visibility to the "notes." They did indeed have visibility to them, but they were confused because the "deal line item" is described as a "swap." I told them that unless they wanted to waste a trip, they'd better be prepared to leave my HR10-250. And so they did--I got a new HR21-700, slimline dish, an additional coax for the HR10 OTA, a new multiswitch and no commitment at no charge. I dropped one of my SAT-T60's to avoid an additional receiver charge. Come Dec 15th, I'll pay for the HD Extra Pack, but I'll also be dropping my other SAT-T60 at the same time.


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## mattbooty (Dec 28, 2002)

When they finally do remove the MPEG2 stations, will there be (are there now) east and west coast HD networks in MPEG4 that those of us with waivers will still be able to get?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mattbooty said:


> When they finally do remove the MPEG2 stations, will there be (are there now) east and west coast HD networks in MPEG4 that those of us with waivers will still be able to get?


Yes there will be, but you will almost certainly will have to re-apply for your waivers.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

incog-neato said:


> I've read the CE releases .. they all usually have some "stability" fixes built in. That means something is "unstable." They rarely specify what these issues are ... just "stability" updates...


So is it somehow a bad thing that they are continually working toward a more stable system? I'm glad they're continuing to work on it. I don't see anything like that for the HR10 and it sure could use it...


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

Yup, OK. You're right.


badmonkey said:


> So is it somehow a bad thing that they are continually working toward a more stable system? I'm glad they're continuing to work on it. I don't see anything like that for the HR10 and it sure could use it...


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

incog-neato said:


> Yup, OK. You're right.


:up:LOL.

Why even bother....


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

badmonkey said:


> I don't see anything like that for the HR10 and it sure could use it...


Correct. Directv isn't paying Tivo, Inc. to work on the DTivo codebase; therefore, nothing changes. Even if tivo completely rewrote the entire thing, Directv won't let them put it on any system.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

incog-neato said:


> Yup, OK. You're right.


So you're saying the HR10 has no problems? I'm not against the HR10. I was merely stating that the HR10 could use some 'stability' improvements. It's turned into an unreliable, unstable piece of equipment. In my case, it is much more unreliable than the HR20. And they're still improving the HR20!


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> :up:LOL.
> 
> Why even bother....


What does this even mean? Someone can't make a point that shows the HR10 is not the infallible, perfect device?

And you guys over here wonder why people often resort to calling you names... I guess your screen name says it all...


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

cramer said:


> Correct. Directv isn't paying Tivo, Inc. to work on the DTivo codebase; therefore, nothing changes. Even if tivo completely rewrote the entire thing, Directv won't let them put it on any system.


That's a good point. I suppose DirecTV would have to contract them to work on the issues. That said, the point still remains the the HR10 isn't without issues and is not, nor ever was, a perfect device. At least in the case of the HR20 (regardless of the reason why), the issues are being addressed and, as I said in an earlier post, the HR20 is already more reliable in my case.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

No, I'm saying: Yup, OK, you're right.


badmonkey said:


> So you're saying the HR10 has no problems? I'm not against the HR10. I was merely stating that the HR10 could use some 'stability' improvements. It's turned into an unreliable, unstable piece of equipment. In my case, it is much more unreliable than the HR20. And they're still improving the HR20!


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

badmonkey said:


> What does this even mean? Someone can't make a point that shows the HR10 is not the infallible, perfect device?
> 
> And you guys over here wonder why people often resort to calling you names... I guess your screen name says it all...


Hey ...good one. You sure told me.:up:


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## mattbooty (Dec 28, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Yes there will be, but you will almost certainly will have to re-apply for your waivers.


That actually upsets me more than having to switch from Tivo to a new box. I just applied for waivers a year ago but now because DirecTV wants to change their technology I have to go through all that again and most likely lose access to a network I already have waivers to for 2 months or so while my local affiliate processes the waiver and DirecTV turns the station back on for me?

I've actually tried to stay neutral on the whole directv DVR thing even though I'm a diehard Tivo fan because I haven't actually used the new box yet, but then something like this comes along and it really seems like DirecTV is just trying to make things as difficult as possible for customers. What is the point of forcing us to do this other than to cause problems for the customers who have waivers? I understand that there probably aren't many of us, but it actually seems like in this case they are going out of their way to make it more difficult.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

badmonkey said:


> ...
> 
> And you guys over here wonder why people often resort to calling you names... I guess your screen name says it all...


um... his screen name has wine in it, not whine


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mattbooty said:


> That actually upsets me more than having to switch from Tivo to a new box. I just applied for waivers a year ago but now because DirecTV wants to change their technology I have to go through all that again and most likely lose access to a network I already have waivers to for 2 months or so while my local affiliate processes the waiver and DirecTV turns the station back on for me?
> 
> I've actually tried to stay neutral on the whole directv DVR thing even though I'm a diehard Tivo fan because I haven't actually used the new box yet, but then something like this comes along and it really seems like DirecTV is just trying to make things as difficult as possible for customers. What is the point of forcing us to do this other than to cause problems for the customers who have waivers? I understand that there probably aren't many of us, but it actually seems like in this case they are going out of their way to make it more difficult.


Waivers are out of control of DirecTV... it is your affiliates that revoke/approve the waivers.

With new contracts with affiliates, that voids the waivers. 
If DirecTV wanted to... they could just flip them on, however the rules and regulations from the FCC and "enforced" by the affiliates... make that impossible to do.

So while it is possible that they could "blanket" re-apply... Affiliates are revoking waivers more and more now adays, and dening waviers more often now then approving them.

It is possible (and I know from at least one station engineer that I have talked to), some affiliates will not accept a "blanket" waiver, or waivers in bulk and each have to be individually filed or they will not accept it for their review.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

cramer said:


> Correct. Directv isn't paying Tivo, Inc. to work on the DTivo codebase; therefore, nothing changes. Even if tivo completely rewrote the entire thing, Directv won't let them put it on any system.


So that update that everyone is supposed to receive in January/February '08... TiVo inc is doing that for free?


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## mattbooty (Dec 28, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Waivers are out of control of DirecTV... it is your affiliates that revoke/approve the waivers.
> 
> With new contracts with affiliates, that voids the waivers.
> If DirecTV wanted to... they could just flip them on, however the rules and regulations from the FCC and "enforced" by the affiliates... make that impossible to do.
> ...


If they have a new contract with the affiliates, though, wouldn't that require you to reapply regardless of whether you are on an MPEG2 or MPEG4 station (meaning re-application would need to happen as soon as the new contracts were worked out, not when I personally decide to start using an MPEG4 station)? If the distant affiliate is the same, and your local affiliate is the same, I don't see how the compression in which the station is broadcast to you should have anything to do with waivers being re-evaluated.

Besides, a waiver gives me a right to the HD and SD network feed, what about all the people who only use the SD network feed, are you saying that when direcTV switches to the MPEG4 HD station that these people will all need to re-apply for waivers even though the change does not affect them as well? If the issue is with affiliate contracts then they would also have to. Then this becomes a much larger issue than just the new HD station.

And if they are only forcing HD users to re-apply for waivers, then it wouldn't appear to be an FCC regulation anymore, it is a DirecTV decision. FCC and affiliates do not care what channel I get the distant station from (meanings its on channel 83 vs channel 1582 but its still NBC from New York), or what compression algorithm DirecTV uses to beam it to me, all they care about is that I am authorized to recieve that distant station by the local affiliate FROM DIRECTV. Of course if I changed providers I would need to re-apply.... although, I don't believe the letter I have from my local NBC that I sent to DirecTV actually even specifies DirecTV, so if I suddenly switched to Dish, I may be able to just fax them my letter and it would cover me for any provider, I may not need to get a NEW letter from local NBC.

Let me add that if directv decided "hey when we switch to MPEG4 we'll start using the Boston NBC feed instead of New York for our Distant Network feed", then yes FCC would possibly require new waivers (although I'm still not 100% on that becuase again, my local NBC doesn't care where I get my distant feed from when they give me a waiver to receive it). But I doubt that is the case and if it is I would assume they would change it for the SD stations also, therefore causing a huge waiver problem for all DirecTV customers.


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## trausch (Jan 8, 2004)

Cudahy said:


> The message I got said I would lose current HD channels "eventually". I'd be surprised if that means December. What's the rush?


When Direct TV says they will EVENTUALLY have lots of HD content they mean in two to three years.

When Direct TV says they will EVENTUALLY stop transmitting HD in MPEG2 to your HR10-250 they mean next week.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

trausch said:


> When Direct TV says they will EVENTUALLY have lots of HD content they mean in two to three years.
> 
> When Direct TV says they will EVENTUALLY stop transmitting HD in MPEG2 to your HR10-250 they mean next week.


Well considering that they first stated back at the end of 2004/early 2005 that they will be converting all MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4...

That is still in the two-three year time frame... just because it is now getting to the end, don't think that this is an "all of a sudden" change of plans


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

badmonkey said:


> So you're saying the HR10 has no problems? I'm not against the HR10. I was merely stating that the HR10 could use some 'stability' improvements. It's turned into an unreliable, unstable piece of equipment. In my case, it is much more unreliable than the HR20. And they're still improving the HR20!


Don't tell the tivo nuts this. The HR10 is is perfect man. Did you not know this?

The Hr20 is evil in their world.

I have more issues with the HR10 than the HR20. My HR20 had been basically perfect. But that must mean as I am part of "Team HR20" D* send me a special Hr20 that is magical and caused my HR10 to crap out a few times to get me to the dark side!  

I guess he can speak the forbidden words now....


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