# Is the operative word in "CableCard" Cable?



## jschmidt (Mar 4, 2003)

I was sitting here reading posts about the lease program and wondering about the new TiVo Series 3. One of the main reasons I switched to D* in the first place was so that I could have TiVo and the D* receiver in one box. I was tired of having problems with the cable box controlling the TiVo unreliably through IR. I was also tired of the crappy PQ (we only have Adelphia cable in our area).

So it went that I signed up for D*. It's been a little over a year now and I'm wondering what I will do in the future. I have 2 HD DirectTiVos, 1 SD DirectTiVo, 1 HD receiver, and 1 SD receiver. They are all active and paid for.

I'm interested in the Home Media Center idea, but not sure that the implementation will be good. After being a loyal TiVo user since 1999, it will be hard to switch to some other DVR technology. I really think that D* screwed up when it parted ways with TiVo. I think they underestimate the power of the TiVo brand loyalty.

So to my real question. When the Series 3 TiVos come out, will there be a way to use them with D*? Sure, I understand that I can get a CableCard from Adelphia and use it that way, but that is out of the question. PQ on the non-digital channels sucks and HD channels are limited. Will there be such a thing as a D* CableCard? As I'm writing this question, I think I answered it myself. The signals coming in are totally different. I'm assuming they couldn't do such a thing. But, what about using some sort of control mechanism with the Series 3 to control a D* receiver? Will I also be able to record in HD?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

jschmidt said:


> So to my real question. When the Series 3 TiVos come out, will there be a way to use them with D*? Sure, I understand that I can get a CableCard from Adelphia and use it that way, but that is out of the question. PQ on the non-digital channels sucks and HD channels are limited. Will there be such a thing as a D* CableCard? As I'm writing this question, I think I answered it myself. The signals coming in are totally different. I'm assuming they couldn't do such a thing. But, what about using some sort of control mechanism with the Series 3 to control a D* receiver? Will I also be able to record in HD?


No, CableCard means Cable. They'll also handle ATSC broadcast channels. But they won't be able to work with DirecTV. Yes, the unit supports HD.

In theory if DirecTV comes out with a device to provide support to Windows Media Center systems, TiVo could create software to run on Windows Media Center and provide DirecTV support; I wouldn't go holding my breath for that to happen in real life, though.


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## jschmidt (Mar 4, 2003)

What about using serial or IR control of an external D* receiver? Will Series 3 support that?


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

jschmidt said:


> What about using serial or IR control of an external D* receiver? Will Series 3 support that?


No serial or IR control capabilities at all... either for D* or a cable box.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

A quick search of the Series 3 threads will let you know that they don't have A/V inputs. Just OTA and cable. No need to include IR control since they don't work with other boxes (cable or satellite).

-Robert


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## jschmidt (Mar 4, 2003)

<sigh> That sucks... looks like I will no longer be a TiVo customer. As much as I love it, I just can't go back to the crappy Adelphia cable. That makes my decision easier... guess I'll be looking into the D* DVR options next time around.


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## String (Aug 2, 2005)

Will the series 3 be able to work with Verizon FiOS? That may be a good option for me.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

String said:


> Will the series 3 be able to work with Verizon FiOS? That may be a good option for me.


As long as Verizon provides a CableCard for access to their channels... and I do seem to remember someone in a FIOS area saying it was an option.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

jschmidt said:


> <sigh> That sucks... looks like I will no longer be a TiVo customer. As much as I love it


Unless you have a SA unit, you never really were a TiVo customer. I'm sure TiVo would love to be able to offer a DirecTV compatible Series 3 unit, however DirecTV is a closed system and is not required to be compatible with CableCard, so there is really no way of TiVo doing so.


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## jschmidt (Mar 4, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Unless you have a SA unit, you never really were a TiVo customer. I'm sure TiVo would love to be able to offer a DirecTV compatible Series 3 unit, however DirecTV is a closed system and is not required to be compatible with CableCard, so there is really no way of TiVo doing so.


I owned 3 SA TiVos over the years. One Series 1, Two Series 2. Last year, I changed to DTiVos when changing to D*.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

The new vaporware Tivo has 6 tuners...2 NTSC, 2 ATSC, 2 CC. So the only thing it will _not_ handle is sat. But, does the new Tivo have a baseband video input, either HD or SD? If so, you could theoretically Tivo the output of a sat receiver that way.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> The new vaporware Tivo has 6 tuners...2 NTSC, 2 ATSC, 2 CC. So the only thing it will _not_ handle is sat. But, does the new Tivo have a baseband video input, either HD or SD? If so, you could theoretically Tivo the output of a sat receiver that way.


No NTSC tuners/no MPEG encoder; so no analog video input of any kind. ATSC or CC only.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

String said:


> Will the series 3 be able to work with Verizon FiOS? That may be a good option for me.


Yes, they have to comply with the same regulations that Cable companies comply with. FIOS looks like regular cable in your house (they even use the Motorola 6412 DVR today, which isn't cable card, but is cable).


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## Generic (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is a link about Fios and cablecard 2.0. It is only rumor at this point.

http://www.longhornxp.net/Verizon.html


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

If the proposed SA HDTivos have an HDMI input, then it could theoretically support satellite input couldn't it?


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

DeDondeEs said:


> If the proposed SA HDTivos have an HDMI input, then it could theoretically support satellite input couldn't it?


Unfortunately, no HDMI input; output only:

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-back-closeup-2.JPG

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-back-closeup-1.JPG


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

dswallow said:


> No NTSC tuners/no MPEG encoder; so no analog video input of any kind. ATSC or CC only.


Well then you and I must be talking about 2 different beasts. The new Tivo that I saw described definitely had NTSC tuners, implying an encoder.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> No NTSC tuners


CableLabs currently requires (via licensing) all CableCard products to contain an NTSC tuner.

Although, it's certainly possible (though unlikely) that could change before Tivo introduces their product.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Well then you and I must be talking about 2 different beasts. The new Tivo that I saw described definitely had NTSC tuners, implying an encoder.


The one shown at CES 2006:


























No video inputs.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Generic said:


> Here is a link about Fios and cablecard 2.0. It is only rumor at this point.


I wouldn't take the 2.0 and VOD and other two-way support by "years end or early 2007" seriously ...

However, replacing the ONT with one with a built in NIM would make alot of sense on how Verizon would support CableCard (even 1.0 / one-way) ...

BTW, here is a link to Verizon's comments filed with the FCC that they have developed a CableCard compatible with the current one-way CableCard products and Fios TV:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518171130

Although, no details on exactly when they will support / deploy it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> CableLabs currently requires (via licensing) all CableCard products to contain an NTSC tuner.
> 
> Although, it's certainly possible (though unlikely) that could change before Tivo introduces their product.


Perhaps that just means support for analog cable built into the CableCard so that the device it's plugged in can tune it... standalone video input wouldn't be possible then... only via the CableCard.

That still seems extreme... to have an MPEG2 encoder in the CableCard itself.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

dswallow said:


> No video inputs.


Both the Antenna and Cable in can, and do, support NTSC.



dswallow said:


> Perhaps that just means support for analog cable built into the CableCard so that the device it's plugged in can tune it... standalone video input wouldn't be possible then... only via the CableCard.
> 
> That still seems extreme... to have an MPEG2 encoder in the CableCard itself.


The CableCard is not a tuner, nor does it (The card) contain an MPEG2 encoder.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

SullyND said:


> Both the Antenna and Cable in can, and do, support NTSC.


If that's the case, it's a shame they couldn't have provided composite and/or s-video inputs directly.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Perhaps that just means support for analog cable built into the CableCard so that the device it's plugged in can tune it... standalone video input wouldn't be possible then... only via the CableCard.


It means that the CC Tivo would have to be able to tune to an NTSC channel via the RF (Cable In) input, and output the video via (at the very least) the composite outputs. The CC Tivo would have to have an NTSC tuner.

It does not mean the CC Tivo would _have_ to have an MPEG encoder ... although if it didn't you could only watch NTSC / analog channels live and couldn't record them ...


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

If the requirement is for NTSC tuners, that would certainly explain why the 3 has NTSC tuners, which seemed to me sort of a silly inclusion in a box that is designed primarily for other more lofty uses. But as dt_dc points out, it might depend upon whether there is a requirement for those tuners to be available to the Tivo functions at all, and there well may be a loophole there and thus no encoder.

But "tuner" implies both demodulation to baseband, as well as some sort of access to that baseband signal. Without baseband NTSC A/V outputs (which I frankly didn't expect either), where else could that signal go in a useful manner, other than to an encoder allowing it to be available to the Tivo engine?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Well, think of it this way. When designing the DirecTV HD TiVo, TiVo knew what the inputs would be. If I lived in Chicago, or Orlando, it didn't matter, I'd be using DirecTV. With CableCard I could be on Comcast, or Cox, or Adelpha, or TW, or Mom & Pop, etc. My source may not be entirely digital, nor HD, in fact, there is a chance that the vast majority of my signal may be analog SD cable. Could TiVo really expect to sell a Series 3 that would not be able to record all of my programming? Do you think many would accept having a Series 2 as well as a 3? With CableCard taking care of the conversion / encryption issue there is no logical reason to assume someone would use a STB as well with the Series3, or at least that enough people would want to do that to legitimise the need other inputs (Which could only be SD anyway) and IR blaster.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

jschmidt said:


> <sigh> That sucks... looks like I will no longer be a TiVo customer. As much as I love it, I just can't go back to the crappy Adelphia cable. That makes my decision easier... guess I'll be looking into the D* DVR options next time around.


crappy adelphia cable wont exist in a few months. You'll either have time warner or comcast. Both typically can give Directv a run for the money- obviously depenind on market, packages, and a ton of other specifics...


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jschmidt said:


> So to my real question. When the Series 3 TiVos come out, will there be a way to use them with D*? Sure, I understand that I can get a CableCard from Adelphia and use it that way, but that is out of the question. PQ on the non-digital channels sucks and HD channels are limited.


One thing not directly mentioned in followups.. Your OTA HD channels will also be available over the cable. I believe this is called QAM? In other threads, people have confirmed that the S3 will handle HD over cable.. (and these are NOT encrypted, so you don't need a cablecard if you don't have premium channels.)

But from the other threads, lifetime service is going away, which is a shame IMHO.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

TyroneShoes said:


> But "tuner" implies both demodulation to baseband, as well as some sort of access to that baseband signal. Without baseband NTSC A/V outputs (which I frankly didn't expect either), where else could that signal go in a useful manner, other than to an encoder allowing it to be available to the Tivo engine?


Output via composite, component, SVideo, and / or HDMI. The video has to either be displayed (by a TV) or able to be output (other devices) ... but it doesn't have to be baseband RF output.

Note, I am _not_ saying the S3 won't have encoders. I'm just saying that technically, CableLabs doesn't require them. CableLabs does (currently) require an NTSC tuner. After all, they (CableLabs) doesn't want to put a 'Digital Cable Ready' sticker on a product that can't tune all those analog cable channels most cable companies still have. CableLabs does not require all additional functionality of a product to be available for all channels. If someone wants to make a product that only records even numbered channels and doesn't record odd numbered channels ... that's fine with CableLabs (as long as the product can display or output analog NTSC and digital QAM MPEG2 channels). Hard to imagine the product selling ... but again, that's fine with CableLabs. CableLabs wants to make sure you get the box home and plug it in ... you can see your channels. Additional functionality (MPEG encoders) ... that's up to the manufacturers to include (or not) as they wish.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Oh ... and for the record.

My understanding is that the demo at CES included 2 ATSC tuners and 2 encoders ... which is also the most likely current plan.

However, at some point in the future ... when more cable companies have implemented ADS (analog digital simulcast) I wouldn't be too shocked to see CableLabs drop the NTSC requirement ... and if enough cable companies go ADS I wouldn't be shocked to see S3s without NTSC tuners or encoders in order to reduce the price.

Cable companies are all moving to ADS ... the only question for everyone (cable, CE companies, Tivo, etc.) is when. Makes planning rather difficult ...


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## kas25 (Mar 10, 2003)

What is the anticipated timing for the Tivo Series 3 vs the Directv HD DVR which would have home media capabilities? I heard Series 3 is summer 2006. Not sure about Directv's.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

well directv's box is already way behind schedule. The last officail word for the nbew directv mpeg4 dvr was second half of the year. Than figure there is some time to enable any non-core features. It seems clear to me that TIVo series 3 is a better bet in this race.


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