# What is in the future for DirecTV HD TiVo?



## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

Hi All,

I am sure people have talked about this before, but anyone heard any more news? The last thing I heard was in August when tivo and D* are "sort of" getting back together.

I really want to get HD, but I don't want to give up my tivo or D*. I got a series 2 right now. Any insiders know if Tivo is making a new box that will work with MPEG-4 for D*?

Or maybe if they are working on software that would work with the new HD receivers from D*.

Thanks guys.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

There's been absolutely nothing in the way of any indication anything is happening except some continued basic support for the older receivers. Consider DirecTV's MPEG-4 and Ka-band dead to TiVo.


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## thundermustard (Jul 22, 2004)

gymbo731 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am sure people have talked about this before, but anyone heard any more news? The last thing I heard was in August when tivo and D* are "sort of" getting back together.
> 
> ...


When you call them to complain about the lack of a TiVO, they always dangle that "we are working on it" line.
If they signed a contract today I would imagine it would be 18 months minimum for the product to ship. And they aren't signing any contract soon.
This was the biggest mistake D* has made IMO. It has caused me to cancel after 7 years of service.
I tried the HR21 after a promise of a 15 day trial before my two year commitment kicked in. On the 6th day I called to deactivate this horrible excuse of a DVR and was told I had only 3 days. After explaining I was assured I had 15 days they said I was out of luck.
I hated this thing so bad I cancelled right then and there screw the cancellation fee.
Do not let D* rope you into that piece of junk. Stick with the HR10-250 till they no longer support it, if there is no TiVO then, cancel.
I have an SD TiVO and HD TiVO on the way. Comcast is coming Friday.
Cost me a ton of money compared to sticking with the D* HD DVR but life is too short for clunky menus, a device that records channels you don't even have (with their "wishlist"), and even records the same show twice (once in SD, once in HD, even though the SD channel isn't in my guide).
God that thing sucks.

htttp://www.luv2globetrot.com/Peru


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

thundermustard said:


> When you call them to complain about the lack of a TiVO, they always dangle that "we are working on it" line.
> If they signed a contract today I would imagine it would be 18 months minimum for the product to ship. And they aren't signing any contract soon.
> This was the biggest mistake D* has made IMO. It has caused me to cancel after 7 years of service.
> I tried the HR21 after a promise of a 15 day trial before my two year commitment kicked in. On the 6th day I called to deactivate this horrible excuse of a DVR and was told I had only 3 days. After explaining I was assured I had 15 days they said I was out of luck.
> ...


I just can't imagine choosing hardware over content. I've had a few problems with the HR20 but certainly no more than I had with the HR10. The interface took some getting used to but I now prefer it to Tivo. DirecTv certainly has issues but is superior to any of the half dozen cable providers I've had over the last 25 years. I don't live in a Verizon territory so FIOS is not an option.
AT&T Uverse is a possibility but I've heard many bad things about it as well.
There is no perfect solution.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

"I just can't imagine choosing hardware over content."

I don't really see it as choosing hardware over content. Rather, it's the management of content that is key for me. And I do not for a minute think that DTV will have a sustained lead when it comes to content. DTV represents a single pipe now that the HR21 lacks OTA. In contrast, standalone TiVo's have OTA and broadband pipes in addition to cable. I think standalone cable TiVo's will not lack for content.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

narrod said:


> I just can't imagine choosing hardware over content. I've had a few problems with the HR20 but certainly no more than I had with the HR10. The interface took some getting used to but I now prefer it to Tivo.


Well that's exactly what I did....when DTV couldn't give me (IMO) a decent deal on upgrading from the HR10-250, that's when I decided to bolt to FiOS and THD with Cable Cards. We've had TiVos for 7+years now (longer than my kids!), getting used to a new interface would be a royal PITA.

Outlay of $$ not that bad given I owned all my DTV TiVos and have the 250, an R10, two HDVR2s and a GXCEBOT S1 all up on eBay right now and bids on nearly all (+ an expanded HDVR2 to sell once we finish watching shows off of it). My S2 was free ($100 with $100 gift card at AMZN), and two HDTs were $254 ea. I'll make at least the cost of one of those back by selling the DTiVo equipment, and even with TiVo monthly fees, my FiOS bundle will be a buck or two cheaper each month than what I was paying to DTV with the HD package for 6 or so HD channels. $250 net outlay for true TiVo interface, plus decent (and growing) HD lineup was worth it to me. YMMV, of course.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Malone was supposed to take over Directv from Murdoch last August; now it's practically December and still no word. The one hope of an HDtivo that gets all the new HD channels is that Malone is not averse to making some kind of deal with Tivo(as Murdoch obviously was). Since it would be in both of their interests to reach an agreement it is a realistic hope. No matter how long it takes for the new box to reach market(I've seen estimates of 4 months to 2 years) the current HDtivo would still get 10 HD channels until then(even if an agreement wasn't reached). It should become clear, one way or another, by next summer.


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## vobguy (May 21, 2004)

Sadly I don't have any other option but Dish network  

Of course the fact that DirecTV doesn't have HD locals for my area, and their new HR21 doesn't have an OTA tuner, leaves me wondering whether I should even bother upgrading away from my Tivo since I won't be getting any better picture on most shows that I watch. 

If DirecTV had a current TIVO HD model, I would be easily able to overlook the missing HD locals. But without the HD locals, I am not sure I am quite ready to give up my TIVO just yet - not that I want to give it up.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> Well that's exactly what I did....when DTV couldn't give me (IMO) a decent deal on upgrading from the HR10-250, that's when I decided to bolt to FiOS and THD with Cable Cards. We've had TiVos for 7+years now (longer than my kids!), getting used to a new interface would be a royal PITA.
> 
> Outlay of $$ not that bad given I owned all my DTV TiVos and have the 250, an R10, two HDVR2s and a GXCEBOT S1 all up on eBay right now and bids on nearly all (+ an expanded HDVR2 to sell once we finish watching shows off of it). My S2 was free ($100 with $100 gift card at AMZN), and two HDTs were $254 ea. I'll make at least the cost of one of those back by selling the DTiVo equipment, and even with TiVo monthly fees, my FiOS bundle will be a buck or two cheaper each month than what I was paying to DTV with the HD package for 6 or so HD channels. $250 net outlay for true TiVo interface, plus decent (and growing) HD lineup was worth it to me. YMMV, of course.


Makes perfect sense to me. If a provider doesn't provide what you want you
should cancel the service and go somewhere else. Certainly more productive than endlessly venting about all their shortcomings but still paying them every month. I'm been with DirecTv for eight years and will drop them immediately if they don't meet my needs and a termination fee would not stop me from doing so.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

narrod said:


> I just can't imagine choosing hardware over content...


Doing that would be irrational, but it is still the first natural reaction most Tivo owners have to losing Tivo. I don't see myself or anyone choosing hardware over content, but then it is still a compelling argument for not going where there's more content. I think content rules, for instance if those 100 channels actually had one program in HD that I wanted and couldn't get, then I'd have a real problem, because to get the content upgrade you need a hardware downgrade.

DirecTivo was a golden era. Vastly superior hardware and PQ connected to content rivaling all competitors. Oh how the times have changed.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> Doing that would be irrational, but it is still the first natural reaction most Tivo owners have to losing Tivo. I don't see myself or anyone choosing hardware over content, but then it is still a compelling argument for not going where there's more content. I think content rules, for instance if those 100 channels actually had one program in HD that I wanted and couldn't get, then I'd have a real problem, because to get the content upgrade you need a hardware downgrade.
> 
> DirecTivo was a golden era. Vastly superior hardware and PQ connected to content rivaling all competitors. Oh how the times have changed.


Since you don't have any interest in the new HD content there is no hardware issue for you. The HR10 will work for a long time. I agree the golden era is over. For me it is because of the constantly declining picture quality I've seen over the past 8 years and not the hardware choices.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> Doing that would be irrational, but it is still the first natural reaction most Tivo owners have to losing Tivo. I don't see myself or anyone choosing hardware over content, but then it is still a compelling argument for not going where there's more content. I think content rules, for instance if those 100 channels actually had one program in HD that I wanted and couldn't get, then I'd have a real problem, because to get the content upgrade you need a hardware downgrade.
> 
> DirecTivo was a golden era. Vastly superior hardware and PQ connected to content rivaling all competitors. Oh how the times have changed.


I'm so spoiled and addicted by those 100 HD channels that I no longer watch any non HD channels. It's like when color TV's first came out. Everyone's different but I could never give them up for Tivo. I wish I didn't have to but that's life.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> I'm so spoiled and addicted by those 100 HD channels that I no longer watch any non HD channels. It's like when color TV's first came out. Everyone's different but I could never give them up for Tivo. I wish I didn't have to but that's life.


Inherently you're still watching a lot of non-HD content, though.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Inherently you're still watching a lot of non-HD content, though.


Agreed. There should really be a disclaimer that denotes the difference between HD channels and HD programming.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

20TIL6 said:


> Agreed. There should really be a disclaimer that denotes the difference between HD channels and HD programming.


I agree but it is up to the various channels. This is one issue that should not be blamed on DirecTv.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

This is a great compilation of the HD channels available on DirecTV

http://www.digitalcaffeine.com/hd/


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

narrod said:


> I agree but it is up to the various channels. This is one issue that should not be blamed on DirecTv.


You gotta start somewhere, and it's probably better to have the HD delivery system ready for the HD programming than to have HD programming but no delivery system.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

I just need mine to get me through football season and bye bye. It has started rebooting once a week or so and not in the mood to replace the 3rd set of drives since purchase. Yea, it runs on a UPS and sits out in cool air too.

Currently have FIOS and DTV. LOVE FIOS. Only gripe was that Sundance wasn't a basic channel and had to spend another 12 bucks, but that also landed me a Showtime and a ton of other movie channels. If there are DTV-like compression artifacts, I can't see them on a new 60" Elite Kuro. No worries about weather either.

DTV will dry up and blow away in all but the most rural areas the day they lose NFL Sunday Ticket. I'll be ending a 7 year relationship too. FIOS is going to crush them just as fast as they can lay fiber.

I went with 2 S3s. Wow, the "real TIVO" interface is even better than the legacy crap on DTV. Networked devices that can swap programming and download from Amazon, etc? Holy crap, these guys are amazing !!
Of course, that legacy crap still crushes the FIOS and other cable DVR box interfaces.

I have noticed a very disturbing trend with the growth expansion of DVRs. Tivo has become the "Kleenex" of DVRs. People that have never seen a TIVO interface, let alone own one, refer to their DVR as a TIVO. I've even had officemates insist that they had a cable system provided Tivo.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

It's not just DTV. All of cable and Sat are doing this. Their commercials offer the largest quantity of expensive automobiles, but they have only yet to provide the highway.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

20TIL6 said:


> "I just can't imagine choosing hardware over content."
> 
> I don't really see it as choosing hardware over content. Rather, it's the management of content that is key for me. And I do not for a minute think that DTV will have a sustained lead when it comes to content. DTV represents a single pipe now that the HR21 lacks OTA. In contrast, standalone TiVo's have OTA and broadband pipes in addition to cable. I think standalone cable TiVo's will not lack for content.


I have no reasonable option for OTA and my cable company does not offer any HD content. I would say content is by far more important to me than hardware. Luckily I find my HR20 to be as good and in some ways better than the HR10 so I got both hardware and content with DirecTV. I just wish the HR20 had DLBs otherwise I am very happy.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> You gotta start somewhere, and it's probably better to have the HD delivery system ready for the HD programming than to have HD programming but no delivery system.


I think you are over estimating how much of the content is SD. With that many HD channels I can always find something to watch that is HD. And the HD movie channels sure look a lot better than the same movie on an SD channel.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> I think you are over estimating how much of the content is SD. With that many HD channels I can always find something to watch that is HD. And the HD movie channels sure look a lot better than the same movie on an SD channel.


Finding something on in HD to watch and finding something you want to watch that's in HD are different.


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## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

narrod said:


> Since you don't have any interest in the new HD content there is no hardware issue for you. The HR10 will work for a long time. I agree the golden era is over. For me it is because of the constantly declining picture quality I've seen over the past 8 years and not the hardware choices.


I heard that the HR10 will not work because D* is changing everything over to MPEG4. Can't the HR10 only see the HD channels if they are MPEG2?

Also, does anyone know if there are any differences in quality of the picture between those two compressions? I am just wondering.


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## incog-neato (Sep 18, 2007)

The HR10 will continue to work on the few HD MPEG2 channels that currently exist. Those 7 or so channels should be around for at least an other year, after that it's anyone's guess. The HR10 will also always be good for for standard (non-hd channel) programming as well as OTA reception. All the new stuff requires Mpeg4 new equipment.

Picture quality differences are in the eye of the beholder. Just like people swear HDMI produces a better picture then Component or putting premium gas in your car that just needs regular makes it run better or that 12 gauge monster cable for 50c a foot makes speakers sound better the generic 12 gauge cable for 4c a foot.



gymbo731 said:


> I heard that the HR10 will not work because D* is changing everything over to MPEG4. Can't the HR10 only see the HD channels if they are MPEG2?
> 
> Also, does anyone know if there are any differences in quality of the picture between those two compressions? I am just wondering.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I don't think the analogy you make for HDMI vs. component is valid. Over short distances, with good quality cables, there may be minimal difference, though with component the picture undergoes digital to analog to digital conversions that it doesn't with HDMI. Quality of implementation matters.

For my setup, HDMI is much better than component, but my TV is 24 feet of cable away from the source, so component suffers a lot.


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

stevel said:


> I don't think the analogy you make for HDMI vs. component is valid. Over short distances, with good quality cables, there may be minimal difference, though with component the picture undergoes digital to analog to digital conversions that it doesn't with HDMI. Quality of implementation matters.
> 
> For my setup, HDMI is much better than component, but my TV is 24 feet of cable away from the source, so component suffers a lot.


Here are a couple of articles that seem to disagree with your HDMI vs. component statement.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi.htm
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/dvihdmicomponent.htm

I run component nearly 70 feet with no problems. I have an HDMI run of 30 feet that required me to purchase a new generation 2 cable to get it to even work at all. The first two HDMI generation 1 cables would not sync at 30 feet.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I was an enthusiastic early buyer when the HDtivo 10-250 first came out. As time has gone on I see the difference in picture quality as very erratic. On most of the channels that I watch that are still SD the picture quality has improved to the point that sometimes we forget to switch to HD. It looks more & more like just a moderately improved picture quality. Also more programs are masked in SD so we can zoom to full screen with an HDtv. If that continues I'll be even less inclined to choose between Directv & Tivo when the 9 HD channels do start to leave.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

bpratt said:


> Here are a couple of articles that seem to disagree with your HDMI vs. component statement.


Actually, they do agree. "Quality of implementation matters". My HDMI cable is a good quality one and I have not had any troubles with it. My component cable is apparently not so good. I get ghosting and color noise with the component cables (both are from the same manufacturer, and no, not Monster.)

Theoretically, HDMI ought to be better. But it isn't always. I'm reminded of some early laserdisc players that added an S-Video output. A naive user would thing that S-Video was always better than composite, but for LD players that isn't so due to the way that LD encodes video.

What I take exception to is those who claim that composite is always better than HDMI. And vice-versa. Poor early HDMI implementations added to the confusion.


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## W3SYT (Jan 7, 2001)

Actually I prefer the new ones now. And I have Verizon Fios service installed. Their HD channel offerings cannot equal Directv (in quantity at least.).


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

incog-neato said:


> The HR10 will continue to work on the few HD MPEG2 channels that currently exist. Those 7 or so channels should be around for at least an other year, after that it's anyone's guess.


I would be surprised if the Mpeg-2 HD channels still existed in September of 2008. DirecTV has already said they will show HD NFLST games in Mpeg-4 next season so I imagine by then all HD channels will be MPeg-4. DirecTV has already started offereing free upgrades to people with HR10s. In fact I just got a voicemail the other day offering me a free upgrade despite the fact that I upgraded over a year ago and just use my old HR10 for SD now.


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## old7 (Aug 7, 2002)

Even after the MPEG2 national channels have been converted to MPEG4 I will be using my HD DirecTiVos to record OTA HD. A fairly large percentage of the shows that I record are available OTA. I might even use them to record a couple of SD programs. My HR10-250s will be of use for a few more years.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

old7 said:


> Even after the MPEG2 national channels have been converted to MPEG4 I will be using my HD DirecTiVos to record OTA HD. A fairly large percentage of the shows that I record are available OTA. I might even use them to record a couple of SD programs. My HR10-250s will be of use for a few more years.


I agree, I still use my HR10 for SD it just replaced my R10 since it had the much bigger HDD. I don't foresee replacing it for a long time in that capacity.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

gymbo731 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am sure people have talked about this before, but anyone heard any more news?...


Here is the latest news. Since the breakup between DIRECTV and TiVo in 2006, TiVo has lost 367,000 subscribers while DIRECTV has added 878,000 subscribers.

See TiVo's Quarterly Report from 11/28/07:

http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-07-254939

Summary of DIRECTV and TiVo results:


```
DIRECTV     07 Q3    07 Q2    07 Q1    06 Q4    06 Q3    06 Q2
Net adds      240      128      235      275      165      125
Tot Subs   16,556   16,316   16,188   15,953   15,678   15,513
 
TiVo Subs   1,712    1,708    1,727    1,726    1,625    1,572
DirecTiVo   2,355    2,489    2,615    2,718    2,809    2,846
DTiVo Adds   -134     -126     -103      -91      -37      -29
Total Subs  4,067    4,197    4,342    4,444    4,434    4,418
Total Adds   -130     -145     -102       10       16        1
```
TiVo posted a net loss of 130,000 subscribers for the quarter as DIRECTV posted a net gain of 240,000 subscribers.

Motley Fool notes in their article yesterday TiVo Tanked:

_"It's been six long months since* TiVo *__made history with its first, and so far only, profitable quarter. that TiVo has had one profitable quarter since."_

Note that DIRECTV did not announce the launch of the new HD channels until October 14, 2007, 14 days after Q3 ended. The results of the launch of the new HD channels will not be reflected until next quarters results.

TiVo annoounced today that TiVo is now working on a PC version.

- Craig


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Looks to me like there's still 2.3 million DirecTV subscribers that prefer having their DirecTV DVR w/TiVo receiver(s) around. That says quite a lot considering how long it's been since DirecTV has offered the TiVo-based receiver to subscribers.

It'll be interesting to see the Comcast numbers once deployment is nationwide.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Looks to me like there's still 2.3 million DirecTV subscribers that prefer having their DirecTV DVR w/TiVo receiver(s) around. That says quite a lot considering how long it's been since DirecTV has offered the TiVo-based receiver to subscribers.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see the Comcast numbers once deployment is nationwide.


I think all it says is 2.3 million people have SD DTivo's and probably don't even know yet that Directv has dropped Tivo. Until their DTivo breaks or they upgrade to HD what reason do they have to stop service on a working dvr they've already paid for?


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> I think all it says is 2.3 million people have SD DTivo's and probably don't even know yet that Directv has dropped Tivo. Until their DTivo breaks or they upgrade to HD what reason do they have to stop service on a working dvr they've already paid for?


why, to upgrade to the latest and greatest of course! word on the street is that the r15 is a smokin unit.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

rickmeoff said:


> why, to upgrade to the latest and greatest of course! word on the street is that the r15 is a smokin unit.


Wow they smoke too. I haven't heard that one yet. I did have a compaq computer years ago that did that once. It was king of funny watching the screen saver run while smoke was pouring out of every hole in the box.


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## scottjf8 (Nov 11, 2001)

Come over to the dark side


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## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

milominderbinder said:


> Here is the latest news. Since the breakup between DIRECTV and TiVo in 2006, TiVo has lost 367,000 subscribers while DIRECTV has added 878,000 subscribers.
> 
> See TiVo's Quarterly Report from 11/28/07:
> 
> ...


Where did you get that announcment from? What will the PC version of a tivo do?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

See here.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion(that I can find)on this forum about Tivo's big victory over the Dish yesterday that resulted in tivos stock share jumping 25&#37;. I'm wondering if this could play any part in Tivo-Directv discussions.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Cudahy said:


> I'm wondering if this could play any part in Tivo-Directv discussions.


Highly doubtfull...


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

People are really good about following to the 'no stock talk' rule. But I bet many who visit here have an interest in investment. But to your comment, yes, 25% in a single day is amazing.

It has never been very clear to me if DTV is impacted one way or the other by the win and/or settlement with DISH. All I remember is that the 3 year support extension between DTV and TiVo was hammered out the very week of the initial ruling against DISH in the lower court. So at one time I guess the two things were related in some way, but I'm not sure now.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

25% of nothing is still nothing. Perhaps if it ever got back up to the $70+ price it once had it might make someone take notice.



dswallow said:


> Looks to me like there's still 2.3 million DirecTV subscribers that prefer having their DirecTV DVR w/TiVo receiver(s) around. That says quite a lot considering how long it's been since DirecTV has offered the TiVo-based receiver to subscribers.


I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  The big HD rollout just started. Up to recently there was no compelling reason for many people to switch. Especially as mentioned above many of these people may be SD customers and have no interest at the moment to switch. Let's see what the numbers look like in 6 months. As soon as I finish watching what I have left recorded on my HR10s, scratch one more sub.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

And even out of that 2.5 Million... That is easily 95% or higher, people with SD DTivos.

And there is very little to any reason to switch off those systems, unless they break. In fact, up till just about two weeks ago... I was still one of the 2.5 million, as I had my R10 still active in my basement. 

I finally got around to deactivating it (because someone was intrested in buying it).

So I wouldn't ready too much into the 2.5 mill mark, other then that is still around $4mil a month of revenue that TiVo gets from DirecTV.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

Who knows what percentage of those 2 1/2 million Directivo customers will want to stick with Tivo when they go to HD? It's possible Directv has actually done research on this.
It's the biggest motivation for Directv to reach an agreement with Tivo. I've yet to read any reason why it wouldn't be in the mutual economic interest of both parties to reach an agreement.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Cudahy said:


> Who knows what percentage of those 2 1/2 million Directivo customers will want to stick with Tivo when they go to HD? It's possible Directv has actually done research on this.
> It's the biggest motivation for Directv to reach an agreement with Tivo. I've yet to read any reason why it wouldn't be in the mutual economic interest of both parties to reach an agreement.


What benefit would it be to DirecTV?

Several Millions of dollars in development of a new system....
Only to have to maintain a system developed by a third party... for a modest amount of the DVR fee, since the major portion of the subscription fee is for the programming.

I haven't seen a quality argument on how it would be an economical interest for DirecTV to have a multiple DVR platform system in their system.

It didn't work the first time (Ultimate TV and TiVo), why would it work in the future?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> It didn't work the first time (Ultimate TV and TiVo), why would it work in the future?


Seemed to work just fine; Microsoft is the one that shut down the Ultimate TV product development. And DirecTV is the one that put a stop to future TiVo-based receiver development. And there apparently are still 2 1/2 million subscribers using TiVo-based DirecTV hardware... a pretty serious chunk of their subscriber base.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Cudahy said:


> I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion(that I can find)on this forum about Tivo's big victory over the Dish yesterday that resulted in tivos stock share jumping 25%. I'm wondering if this could play any part in Tivo-Directv discussions.





ebonovic said:


> Highly doubtfull...


That's foolish. A strong patent position for TiVo will absolutely play a part in any future discussions. I would bet that if TiVo wins their Echostar suit that DTV will be paying TiVo well beyond their current agreement whether or not they offer any new TiVo services. Two years and three months to go.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

dswallow said:


> And there apparently are still 2 1/2 million subscribers using TiVo-based DirecTV hardware... a pretty serious chunk of their subscriber base.


I would not exactly call 2.5m (that is dropping evey day) out of 16.5+m a 'pretty serious chunk'. And if the poll here is any indication, coming from mostly the Tivo die hards (who come to forums like this), about 2/3rd will do the switch or are in the process.

Face it, another Tivo based DirecTV unit is just not going to happen. Perhaps not likely, but at least more believable is DirecTV would just buy out Tivo and then incorporate those patented features into their own box.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> I would not exactly call 2.5m (that is dropping evey day) out of 16.5+m a 'pretty serious chunk'. And if the poll here is any indication, coming from mostly the Tivo die hards (who come to forums like this), about 2/3rd will do the switch or are in the process.
> 
> Face it, another Tivo based DirecTV unit is just not going to happen. Perhaps not likely, but at least more believable is DirecTV would just buy out Tivo and then incorporate those patented features into their own box.


out of those 16.5M, how many have DVR's? We will call that number "X". Now take TiVo's 2.5M and divide that by X. I bet its a "pretty serious chunk".


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> out of those 16.5M, how many have DVR's? We will call that number "X". Now take TiVo's 2.5M and divide that by X. I bet its a "pretty serious chunk".


 You just made the chunk even smaller, not bigger. And as I said above, based on the poll, you can further divide your now smaller chunk by 3 since 2/3 of the folks apear that they will or have switched.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

It would be nice if DirecTV would approach tivo with the same attitude they have with their sports packages. Pay good money for an exclusive deal, and they're the only ones that get an integrated dvr/receiver combo. If the tivo/dish suit means dish will have to shut off their dvrs, it sure seems like it would be a logical move for dish to make a deal on a Tivo combo unit.

wish in one hand, crap in the other.

I'm gonna go wash one of my hands now.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> You just made the chunk even smaller, not bigger. And as I said above, based on the poll, you can further divide your now smaller chunk by 3 since 2/3 of the folks apear that they will or have switched.


She just said it wrong; if you take a count of the number of DirecTV subscribers with any DVR and divide that by the number of subscribers with a DirecTV DVR w/TiVo, that percentage will be larger than it is as a percentage of the total number of subscribers.

They're just numbers; and over time they'll still change. They're just fun to talk about.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

A third of Tivo directv customers want to keep both? Over 800,000 customers don't matter to Directv? Right. 
Tivo just has to approach Directv(when Malone takes over)with an offer that lets them both make money. If this involves an extra couple of dollars a month for Tivo subscribers, no big deal. Tivos big win against Echostar may give them more motivation to seek a deal. 
What the actual cost to Directv is would depend on the parameters of the deal; pure speculation by anyone on this board.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

dswallow said:


> She just said it wrong; if you take a count of the number of DirecTV subscribers with any DVR and divide that by the number of subscribers with a DirecTV DVR w/TiVo, that percentage will be larger than it is as a percentage of the total number of subscribers.


Wow, talk about really fudging the numbers. 

No matter how one manipulates the numbers, the bottom line is the Tivo subs are on the decline, the HR20/HR21 are on the rise as is the total number of DirecTV subscribers. Thus there is zero incentive to bring back a Tivo based model.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> A third of Tivo directv customers want to keep both? Over 800,000 customers don't matter to Directv? Right.


It all depends. How many of those 800k folks 'wanting to keep' would actually dump DirecTV over the lack of Tivo? Talk is cheap, but how many would actually follow through and switch? And even if they all did, it still might be more cost effective for DirecTV to loose them, than have to develop and support a second model.


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## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

Sounds to me that Mark doesn't even like Tivo. Then why is he in this forum? 

I would bet you that most Directv folks that have a dvr with tivo want to keep their tivo. They don't realize the lack of one when they upgrade until its too late.

I know that I for one would pay an extra fee to have a tivo based HD dvr rather than directv's crap. What I think needs to happen is that more and more people need to start contacting directv and tivo and tell them they would be interested in a new HD tivo that works with Directv.

How many of you would like that? Sounds like to me that everyone is just saying its not going to happen. Well its not unless the people stand up and tell them what we want. Maybe you don't want a new unit? Well I for one do, and I think anyone that does should send e-mails and phone calls suggesting to them that they should get back in business together.

This would be the perfect time with Directv under new managment, and Tivo winning the lawsuits for its DVR. I think both companies could benefit.

What say you?


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Mark Lopez said:


> You just made the chunk even smaller, not bigger. And as I said above, based on the poll, you can further divide your now smaller chunk by 3 since 2/3 of the folks apear that they will or have switched.


How in the world do you figure I made the number smaller??? Here let me spell the math out for you below.

1) 16.5M overall Directv users, and 2.5M Directivo users.
2,500,000/16,500,000 = 15%

2) I have no idea how many of those 16.5M Directv users have some form of a DVR. So I will use an assumption of 40% of all users have a DVR.

2,500,000/6,600,000 = 38%

Now please tell me how 38% is smaller than 15%.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

gymbo731 said:


> Sounds to me that Mark doesn't even like Tivo. Then why is he in this forum?


Come on! Get with the program!

Go out there and sell, sell, SELL!!!


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

BlackBetty said:


> How in the world do you figure I made the number smaller??? Here let me spell the math out for you below.
> 
> 1) 16.5M overall Directv users, and 2.5M Directivo users.
> 2,500,000/16,500,000 = 15%
> ...


Certainly 2.5 million DTivo owners are a serious chunk of DTV's current DVR installed base. And they are also a serious chunk of DTV's current total subscriber base. Anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves.

On the other hand, most of those 2.5 million probably don't even know Directv isn't using Tivo anymore. Until they buy an HD TV or their SD DTivo breaks they have no reason to call DTV or anyone else. Only a trivial percentage of DTivo owners ever come to this forum.

I also suspect that a significant chunk of those 2.5 milllion may already have an HR20 and a new 2 year commitment to Directv in addition to their DTivo. I'm a perfect example, I have 3 HR20's, but I also have 1 old SD DTivo still running in the guest room. Since that is an SD TV why would I bother paying to swap it out until it dies?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> How in the world do you figure I made the number smaller??? Here let me spell the math out for you below.
> 
> 1) 16.5M overall Directv users, and 2.5M Directivo users.
> 2,500,000/16,500,000 = 15%
> ...


#2 is flawed. If there are 40% (or whatever number) of DVR users, just what brand are they using if not Tivo or DirecTV's model?  Yes, there are some UTV still there, but probably an insignificant number. So the flaw in your numbers is that the number of Tivo users can not exceed your first number of 2.5M. So subtract those who don't care about Tivo or will switch anyway, and any number has to be smaller than that, not larger


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

gymbo731 said:


> Sounds to me that Mark doesn't even like Tivo. Then why is he in this forum?


I never said I didn't like Tivo. I've had one since 1999 and for a long time was one of their biggest supporters. What I have been saying, is that I'm not so stuck on a brand that I won't try something else. Especially when the new unit does what I need it to. And had Tivo not stagnated years ago, I would probably be more in 'lemming mode' like many here. Oh wow after 7 years, we finally got folders, I'm thrilled. And the latest software version has more bugs than ever. Just look at all of the problem threads.

[tivolemming] Oh, you can work around the bugs, just turn off suggestions and set everything to save until I delete'. And just ignore the shorted recordings, they will show reruns someday[/tivolemming]



gymbo731 said:


> Well its not unless the people stand up and tell them what we want.
> 
> What say you?


Nope. My HR20 is working just fine.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

gymbo731 said:


> Sounds to me that Mark doesn't even like Tivo. Then why is he in this forum?


no, he doesnt like people who state things as fact about the hr20 vs the hr10 without having first hand experience with the unit. big difference, lol.

granted, hes been posting hr20 praise here for many months, and just got his first unit 6 days ago, but we need to overlook that.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> no, he doesnt like people who state things as fact about the hr20 vs the hr10 without having first hand experience with the unit. big difference, lol.


No he doesn't like people who have never touched the unit making false statements when he at least did use the unit (although did not have it in his own house yet). Yes, big difference.



rickmeoff said:


> granted, hes been posting hr20 praise here for many months, and just got his first unit 6 days ago, but we need to overlook that.


Please post a link to any post where I praised the HR20 about a specific function actually working better than the HR10, or any post that said I had one in my possession. On the contrary, I mostly made statements that the HR10 had it's own issues or that the issues that people said about the HR20 were blown out of proportion (that I did know from first hand use). But of course you won't be able to find them, because I never said them.

But go ahead and flame away. At least I admitted, my variance from the poll requirements and why I felt I was still justified to vote. But I wonder how many voted against the HR10 actually have not touched one at all. No one has yet explained all of those HR20 bashers with ~5 posts who came out of the woodwork and voted. I guess we need to overlook that too.


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## rickmeoff (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> But go ahead and flame away. At least I admitted, my variance from the poll requirements and why I felt I was still justified to vote. But I wonder how many voted against the HR10 actually have not touched one at all. No one has yet explained all of those HR20 bashers with ~5 posts who came out of the woodwork and voted. I guess we need to overlook that too.


bottom line:
the poll was for people who -owned- an hr20. you did not, yet you voted in it anyway while bashing others whom you accused of voting without doing the same (owning one). your action was hypocritical, no matter how you try and justify it after the fact.

just being honest.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

rickmeoff said:


> bottom line:
> the poll was for people who -owned- an hr20. you did not, yet you voted in it anyway while bashing others whom you accused of voting without doing the same (owning one). your action was hypocritical, no matter how you try and justify it after the fact.
> 
> just being honest.


Bottom line (again). One does not have to have owned (technically leased) one *to have used it for the required time*. If you can not see the difference between that and not having used one at all, then you fall right into the 'lemming' catagory I use for people with your attitude.

Just being honest.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> #2 is flawed. If there are 40% (or whatever number) of DVR users, just what brand are they using if not Tivo or DirecTV's model?  Yes, there are some UTV still there, but probably an insignificant number. So the flaw in your numbers is that the number of Tivo users can not exceed your first number of 2.5M. So subtract those who don't care about Tivo or will switch anyway, and any number has to be smaller than that, not larger


The first number was those with a TiVo-based DVR.

The second number was meant to include comparison with only those who had a DVR instead of all subscribers. DirecTV's DVR, the TiVo DVR, or even people using some other DVR device via video output and a separate satellite receiver.

The 2.5 million number IS the number of TiVo-based DirecTV DVR users, a subset of the total number of DVR users.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

dswallow said:


> The first number was those with a TiVo-based DVR.
> 
> The second number was meant to include comparison with only those who had a DVR instead of all subscribers. DirecTV's DVR, the TiVo DVR, or even people using some other DVR device via video output and a separate satellite receiver.
> 
> The 2.5 million number IS the number of TiVo-based DirecTV DVR users, a subset of the total number of DVR users.


Right. But I thought the argument that was trying to be made was that there was a larger percentage of people who would want a Tivo even though they don't have/want one. In other words it sounded like the numbers were being inflated to include all DVR owners which does include those who are happy with what they have (non-Tivo). Of course we have no way of knowing how many of those would switch or even want a Tivo if it were to be available. All we do know for certain is the number of current Tivo subscribers, and that it is on the decline and certainly not increasing. One can speculate all they want, but the numbers speak for themselves. The DirecTV bean counters know exactly where it is cost effective to offer a Tivo based unit. And I think that number has already come and gone.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

All we know for sure is that Directv has not yet reached an agreement with Tivo to upgrade the HD10-250 to include the new HD channels on mpeg4. The last official word, last July, was that Directv was negotiating with Tivo on future uprgrades. That we're still waiting for Malone to take over from Murdoch may be part of the reason we haven't heard anything since then.


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## narrod (Nov 23, 2002)

Cudahy said:


> All we know for sure is that Directv has not yet reached an agreement with Tivo to upgrade the HD10-250 to include the new HD channels on mpeg4. The last official word, last July, was that Directv was negotiating with Tivo on future uprgrades. That we're still waiting for Malone to take over from Murdoch may be part of the reason we haven't heard anything since then.


Does anyone actually believe that the 250 will ever be upgraded to support MPEG-4? Who knows what the future holds for DirecTivo HD? As for the 250
and MPEG-4 capability....stick a fork in it. It is done.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Cudahy said:


> All we know for sure is that Directv has not yet reached an agreement with Tivo to upgrade the HD10-250 to include the new HD channels on mpeg4.


Ummm... Never going to happen since the HR10 does not have the hardware to decode the MPEG4 channels. It's either a totally new box or nothing. The only 'upgrades' would be added 'cosmetic' features to the existing box. And I even doubt that will happen, since the HR10 is practically obsolete now.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

narrod said:


> Does anyone actually believe that the 250 will ever be upgraded to support MPEG-4? Who knows what the future holds for DirecTivo HD? As for the 250
> and MPEG-4 capability....stick a fork in it. It is done.


The answer is never. Simply because any upgrade to it to support MPEG-4 will be a replacement, hence it won't be an upgrade.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Cudahy said:


> I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion(that I can find)on this forum about Tivo's big victory over the Dish yesterday that resulted in tivos stock share jumping 25%. I'm wondering if this could play any part in Tivo-Directv discussions.


Yeah, if Tivo sees money out of it, they will be less likely to cut a deal with DirecTV as they won't need them as much.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Cudahy said:


> All we know for sure is that Directv has not yet reached an agreement with Tivo to upgrade the HD10-250 to include the new HD channels on mpeg4. The last official word, last July, was that Directv was negotiating with Tivo on future uprgrades. That we're still waiting for Malone to take over from Murdoch may be part of the reason we haven't heard anything since then.


No, the latest word is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to upgrade the HR10 to do MPEG4 HD on satellites that it cannot physically see.

Also, there was no negogiation. The FACT is that DirecTivos will be updated with some software items that are Tivo things that never got into the DirecTV boxes. That is a done deal. The updates won't be here until next year because the software development and testing takes time.

Any Tivo software doing MPEG4 for DirecTV would have to be on the DirecTV hardware or on new hardware. Either would take years to implement. And would cost quite a bit.

Don't hold your breath.

(I love people who just come on here and ignore technicial realities and just say "well, maybe, there is always hope.")


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> Bottom line (again). One does not have to have owned (technically leased) one *to have used it for the required time*. If you can not see the difference between that and not having used one at all, then you fall right into the 'lemming' catagory I use for people with your attitude.
> 
> Just being honest.


I agree.

"_Messing_" with one (in a store) ....(the post where you mentioned this has disappeared; must've been a glitch of some kind) is _definitely_ the equivalent of "owning/leasing and using an HR20 for a full week ..." and _certainly_ qualifies one to intelligently comment on how the unit performs.

There is a huge difference between "_messing_ with one" and "not having used one at all," since "_messing_ with one" would enable one to set up a _number_ of Series Links and monitor them to ensure they recorded properly, while participating in the numerous downloads and following the depth of their reliability.

Just because he voted in the HR20 owners poll well before he got his HR20, doesn't mean his comments on the unit weren't valid (heck, he even knew about the DLB "workaround ...." probably from _messing_ with the unit). RS4 hadn't even "_messed_" with an HR20, and he commented on it all the time and Mark was cool with that.

I'm with Mark on this one. Sorry, but anyone who believes otherwise really is kind've a lemming.

My opinion.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

The FACT is that no one knows(at least on this board)what or how long it would take. There would have to be complete cooperation between Directv and Tivo but that is a business question. Tivo may or may not offer Directv enough to make it worth their while.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> "_Messing_" with one (in a store) ....(the post where you mentioned this has disappeared; must've been a glitch of some kind) is _definitely_ the equivalent of "owning/leasing and using an HR20 for a full week ..." and _certainly_ qualifies one to intelligently comment on how the unit performs.


The post did not disappear. It's right where it was and unedited unless a mod touched it. And the 'in a store' part was something someone else made up in a later post. Please try to get your facts straight.

I did not get a stop watch out and time each time I used it. But I did spend enough time navigating menus playing/recording etc over several days in different weeks to come to the conclusion that the UI was not bad and quite easy (for someone with half a brain) to figure out. And it only takes about 30 seconds (regardless where you 'mess with one') to see how much faster it is.

I can not comment on long term reliability. Just like with others, some have had problems with the HR10 (as I do on both of mine) and some don't. Some have problems with the HR20 which the one I used did not, and the one I have now does not. But feature - to feature, the HR20 is superior IMO. My opinion was valid when I voted and it has not changed.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Mark Lopez said:


> The post did not disappear. It's right where it was and unedited unless a mod touched it. And the 'in a store' part was something someone else made up in a later post. Please try to get your facts straight.
> 
> I did not get a stop watch out and time each time I used it. But I did spend enough time navigating menus playing/recording etc over several days in different weeks to come to the conclusion that the UI was not bad and quite easy (for someone with half a brain) to figure out. And it only takes about 30 seconds (regardless where you 'mess with one') to see how much faster it is.
> 
> I can not comment on long term reliability. Just like with others, some have had problems with the HR10 (as I do on both of mine) and some don't. Some have problems with the HR20 which the one I used did not, and the one I have now does not. But feature - to feature, the HR20 is superior IMO. My opinion was valid when I voted and it has not changed.


Hey, I'm with you Mark ...I agree ...I'm on your side with this one (as anyone with half a brain would be). I'd guess that the _majority_ who vote in those polls aren't telling the truth.

A "stop watch," hehe. Now you're just being funny. Good one.:up:


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> Hey, I'm with you Mark ...I agree ...I'm on your side with this one ....


Then I appologize,. I thought you were being facetious since we rarely agree.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Well, I upgraded to the HR-20 about 6 months ago, and while the box is functional, its not reliable and I am just not a fan of it overall. As for content, that (NFLST + new HD channels) was what convinced me to accept the new box. Well, the NFL season is over for me (as an Eagles fan) and the recent snow and ice storms have somehow knocked out my MPEG4 channels. While I will have a tech come out to re-allign my dish, the idea of bad weather playing havoc with this new band all the time is not thrilling to me.


So, rather than outright cancelling my service, I'll suspend it for as long as they let me and upgrade to the new Tivo HD box sooner rather than later. The content on the new HD channels is VERY VERY limited right now, so I am not missing much. They repeat things over and over and over, or put on quasi-HD shows. Also, with the "dongle" coming as soon as 2nd qtr 2008 (whenever that is), I am confident Comcast will be getting most of these new HD channels that I watch.

Sorry DirecTV, but the combo of the mediocre box, touchy signal strength, and limited new content is going to help me pack my bags.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Signal strength is just a poor installation - I have excellent strength on all the new channels.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Cudahy said:


> The FACT is that no one knows(at least on this board)what or how long it would take. There would have to be complete cooperation between Directv and Tivo but that is a business question. Tivo may or may not offer Directv enough to make it worth their while.


The FACT is NO one period knows how long it will take.
Because even the best of estimates (which I have heard some of), would probably not even be correct.

Did anyone think the COMCAST/TiVo would take almost 3 years to become a reality?


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

stevel said:


> Signal strength is just a poor installation - I have excellent strength on all the new channels.


Agreed... I haven't had a single rain fade issue with the 5 LNB slimline or the new MPEG4 channels.


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## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

Since no one really responded, I'll repost this:

I would bet you that most Directv folks that have a dvr with tivo want to keep their tivo. They don't realize the lack of one when they upgrade until its too late.

I know that I for one would pay an extra fee to have a tivo based HD dvr rather than directv's crap. What I think needs to happen is that more and more people need to start contacting directv and tivo and tell them they would be interested in a new HD tivo that works with Directv.

How many of you would like that? Sounds like to me that everyone is just saying its not going to happen. Well its not unless the people stand up and tell them what we want. Maybe you don't want a new unit? Well I for one do, and I think anyone that does should send e-mails and phone calls suggesting to them that they should get back in business together.

This would be the perfect time with Directv under new managment, and Tivo winning the lawsuits for its DVR. I think both companies could benefit.

What say you?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

gymbo731 said:


> Since no one really responded, I'll repost this:
> 
> I would bet you that most Directv folks that have a dvr with tivo want to keep their tivo.


Maybe no one respnded because it's a bet you would lose.



gymbo731 said:


> I know that I for one would pay an extra fee to have a tivo based HD dvr rather than directv's crap.


In case you have not been keeping up with things, not everyone thinks the HR20 is crap. Actually it seems that more and more of the Tivo die hards here are switching and reporting that it is just fine and many here feel it is even better overall.

BTW, just why do you think it is crap other than not being a Tivo? Be specific please.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Mark Lopez said:


> BTW, just why do you think it is crap other than not being a Tivo? Be specific please.


Maybe because the Tivo did not have to be practically given away to early adopters?


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

gymbo731 said:


> ...
> 
> I would bet you that most Directv folks that have a dvr with tivo want to keep their tivo. They don't realize the lack of one when they upgrade until its too late...
> 
> What say you?


No way. Not a chance. I had many many problems with my HR10s and have had no - not a single - problem with my HR20s in the 5+ months I've owned them. In my opinion, the HR20 is substantially better than the HR10 in both features and function. (I stress that the previous statement is my opinion only - based solely on my own experiences of having owned/leased three HR10's and, now, three HR20's)

Some people do think that many folks would pay for the choice but I don't believe that is true. I'll cite a personal example:

My brother-in-law is very non-technical. Your typical average Joe user. He was quite excited when he got (on my urging) his first DirecTiVo several years ago. When that unit failed, he told me that DirecTV replaced it with the new version of 'TiVo' and was equally excited. I questioned him a bit further since there was no 'new' version of a DirecTiVo and came to find out that he had gotten the R15. We all know what a horrid piece of equipment the R15 was (or maybe even still is. I don't know since I no longer use mine). But he didn't even notice. He thought the thing was perfect. He liked the speed and 'feel' of it better than the TiVo and felt as though he had received a better unit in replacement of his dead DirecTiVo.

Right or wrong, this is more likely the typical scenario in most households than a scenario in which, given the choice, people will fork over more money for something when they probably don't even know the difference.

And, again, that example is one including the disastrous R15. Imagine the same scenario but with the very capable (arguably better than TiVo) HR20.

People on this board tend to forget that we are not the norm. Most people take what they get from their provider and think nothing of it. Look at how many folks have been using cable DVR's without ever considering a TiVo. I don't have any numbers for comparison, but given TiVo's still heavy dependence on DirecTV, at least as far as subscriber numbers go, I'm fairly certain that many more people are using the DVR provided by their cable company than are using any version of a TiVo. That may change slightly over time with the Comcast relationship and with the recently announced 'full two-way capable' Tivo, but for now, I think it is accurate and it goes to show that most people care more about what they are watching than the hardware on which they are watching it.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

I talked with an installer yesterday.

He said that since the new HD channels were announced (October 14th), he has worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day with 2 days off. One day off was Thanksgiving.

He said he knows that DIRECTV has scaled back advertising but wishes they would take it down one more notch.

He said that his company keeps adding installers and trucks but can't keep up. They have gone to three install times a day up from 2 as well. His first install each day is at 6 AM.

- Craig


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

milominderbinder said:


> I talked with an installer yesterday.
> 
> He said that since the new HD channels were announced (October 14th), he has worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day with 2 days off. One day off was Thanksgiving.
> 
> ...


That just doesn't make sense. I know at least a dozen people have posted here that without Tivo Directv would be going out of business. It seems impossible that they could all be so wrong.

And what about all those S3 owners who keep insisting there is nothing on all those HD channels that they want to watch anyway? I can't believe that many people would sign up for HD channels that show nothing but old SD content.

I just don't know who to believe any more.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> That just doesn't make sense. I know at least a dozen people have posted here that without Tivo Directv would be going out of business. It seems impossible that they could all be so wrong.
> 
> And what about all those S3 owners who keep insisting there is nothing on all those HD channels that they want to watch anyway? I can't believe that many people would sign up for HD channels that show nothing but old SD content.
> 
> I just don't know who to believe any more.


Certainly one element can be the typically longer installation time required because of the 5-LNB dish.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Certainly one element can be the typically longer installation time required because of the 5-LNB dish.


It really doesn't seem like the install is longer for a 5 LNB vs. a 3 LNB.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

HiDefGator said:


> That just doesn't make sense. I know at least a dozen people have posted here that without Tivo Directv would be going out of business. It seems impossible that they could all be so wrong.
> 
> And what about all those S3 owners who keep insisting there is nothing on all those HD channels that they want to watch anyway? I can't believe that many people would sign up for HD channels that show nothing but old SD content.
> 
> I just don't know who to believe any more.


I dont know about DirecTv going out of business without TiVo. I think that it is a fact that the installs are out 2 or 3 weeks in many areas and it will get worse once the holidays are over. There is a reason for that, it only makes sense that Directv would want the install done as quickly as possible so they can start the revenue stream. My neighbor had service installed last week after a 4 week wait. 4 WEEKS!! And his wife is a stay at home mom. There was no issues with having to coordinate to have someone home. Obviously markets will vary but I think that this story and Craigs story are true in more areas than not.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

No problems in this neighborhood. Havent seen a single DTV soul in months. That should ease their burden.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> What I have been saying, is that I'm not so stuck on a brand that I won't try something else.


Ok, so instead you're stuck OFF a brand. Hooray for you!



Mark Lopez said:


> Especially when the new unit does what I need it to. And had Tivo not stagnated years ago, I would probably be more in 'lemming mode' like many here. Oh wow after 7 years, we finally got folders, I'm thrilled.


You mean the fact that DirecTV tivos do not suffer from feature creep? I think that one can be filed under "pro" sooner than "con". My DirecTV tivos have neither gained nor lost any features since I've owned them.

What I'm failing to understand here is what can be more "lemming" than the "newer bigger faster updatedverstion moremoremore" mentality?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

CrashHD said:


> You mean the fact that DirecTV tivos do not suffer from feature creep? I think that one can be filed under "pro" sooner than "con". My DirecTV tivos have neither gained nor lost any features since I've owned them.
> 
> What I'm failing to understand here is what can be more "lemming" than the "newer bigger faster updatedverstion moremoremore" mentality?


I suppose you still listen to an 8 track player while running Win 3.1. 

I don't need every wiz bang new feature out there, but there are some things we have asked for since day one like folders (only took 7 years), free space indicator, caller ID (without a hack), an easy way to turn on/off CC and others. Heck my 10 old VHS could do half of that.

So if you want to call stagnation or 'feature creep' a pro, fine, enjoy watching your few HD channels on your trusty old Tivo (while you still can).

Oh, and as for not loosing features, many here lost the ability to reliably record shows after the latest 'downgrade' called 6.3e.


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Certainly one element can be the typically longer installation time required because of the 5-LNB dish.


I installed my own AT9 dish and it took no longer (and possible less time) than the 3 LNB unit. It was even easier because of the fine tuning adjusment screws and not having to 'guestimate' how much the dish would move when you tighten up the bolts on the old dish.


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## gymbo731 (May 8, 2004)

I was right, and you all were wrong!!!! hahahahahaha 

Can't wait for that new directv tivo!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Did you really need to use a nine month old thread to say that when you could have used any number of more recent ones.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

> Mark Lopez said:
> 
> 
> > Face it, another Tivo based DirecTV unit is just not going to happen.
> ...





JimSpence said:


> Did you really need to use a nine month old thread to say that when you could have used any number of more recent ones.


I don't know.

I found it interesting in a nostalgic sense.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

fasTLane said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I found it interesting in a nostalgic sense.


Yea - I find it enjoyable. I think Jim feels he must be the moderator He seems to enjoy telling folks their posts belong elsewhere, or shouldn't be asked again, etc

What difference does it make how many times a question has been asked or an opinion been offered? This is a forum for discussing all things Tivo, so I say bring it on!! It's not like there are tons of pages in here anyway, and even if there were, just ignore the ones you aren't interested in


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Certainly one element can be the typically longer installation time required because of the 5-LNB dish.


This has to be understood in context. The new dish is aligned technically exactly the same way the old dish is, which is to align 110 and 119 (and only one polarity of each) and to _ignore 103, 99, and 101 completely._ The theory is that if you align properly to 110 and 119, everything else falls in line, because the relationships between exactly where the 5 sats are in physical location to each other never change materially from one subscriber location to the other, meaning the antenna can be built as one-size-fits-all, which it is.

That means you can align to 110 and 119 and walk away, regardless of whether the dish sees 99 and 103 (as does the Slimline) or not (as does the Phase III). Most installers can't even see the Ka sats because their legacy SLMs aren't built for it. I'm not even sure there is a commercial Ka SLM available to them in a reasonable price range, which is OK because as long as DTV continues to use at least two Ku sats in their arc they don't need it and would not find a reason to use it.

The difference is in how _precisely _you align, and that is the ONLY difference. This means that the time it takes to properly align a Phase III is really no different than the time it takes to align a Slimline, assuming each is precisely aligned.

Of course if you only do a quick and dirty alignment (sadly the norm rather than the exception), you can align a Phase III quicker, because it will tolerate misalignment to Ku that a Slimline won't to Ka. This is why "dithering" is highly suggested, but then that has always been highly suggested for precise alignment.

Bottom line, if the installers are doing their job (and that's a huge "if") it should never take longer to align a Slimline or AT9, nor is it technically different in approach.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

BTW, you're replying to a ~10-month-old post.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

dswallow said:


> BTW, you're replying to a ~10-month-old post.


BTW, the facts haven't changed in that time, your post is still on record (or I could not have easily responded to it with a mere button-press), I don't actually care how old it is if additional material I might add is still relevant, I am the ONLY one who decides when and what I respond to, and I'm not impressed one way or the other that you might have some sort of passive-aggressive problem with any of that.

Cut me a break. Whether I respond today or 10 months ago doesn't really matter if the thread is the latest one in the forum receiving posts, now does it?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> BTW, the facts haven't changed in that time, your post is still on record (or I could not have easily responded to it with a mere button-press), I don't actually care how old it is if additional material I might add is still relevant, I am the ONLY one who decides when and what I respond to, and I'm not impressed one way or the other that you might have some sort of passive-aggressive problem with any of that.
> 
> Cut me a break. Whether I respond today or 10 months ago doesn't really matter if the thread is the latest one in the forum receiving posts, now does it?


Jeez. I was just saying you perhaps forgot a little context.

Back then, installers weren't that familiar with the 5-LNB dish installation. It took longer for them to get it right. Simple.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Yea - I find it enjoyable. I think Jim feels he must be the moderator He seems to enjoy telling folks their posts belong elsewhere, or shouldn't be asked again, etc
> 
> What difference does it make how many times a question has been asked or an opinion been offered? This is a forum for discussing all things Tivo, so I say bring it on!! It's not like there are tons of pages in here anyway, and even if there were, just ignore the ones you aren't interested in


Hmm seem to remember someone else saying the same thing recently



RS4 said:


> For someone who says they 'detest' the Tivo interface, you sure seem to spend a lot of time here. I would suggest you look at other forums - perhaps you would find folks more to your line of thinking


So where is the difference?


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