# Game of Thrones 8/27/17 "The Dragon and the Wolf"



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm glad to see I was right that Arya was playing Littlefinger, and not the other way around. I'm a little surprised that Bran and Sam pooled their knowledge this quickly (or that Sam even realized he had his part of the puzzle).

I'm also a little surprised that the rift between Cersei and Jamie happened this soon. But I'm not surprised that Cersei being sane was just a ruse.

Things are really moving fast!


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I guess Arya has a new face to add to her collection.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I thought for sure we were gonna get Cleglane Bowl, but alas...

So, dragon glass is more effective against the ordinary unwashed undead than plain steel. That's interesting.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't normally cheer when watching tv, but when Sansa said, "Lord Baelish", I cheered.


I guess we now know why Sam ignored Gilly when she was talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, he had already transcribed that book. It was old news to him.

Was that the same actor who played Viserys as Rhaegar?


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Too fast! I also was relieved when shown that Arya and Sansa were working together. Whew. Would there be any use to having LF's face now?

Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing. 

Dang!! That dragon made short work of the wall. Way too fast!
If Tormund is dead I am going to be so mad.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm glad to see I was right that Arya was playing Littlefinger, and not the other way around. I'm a little surprised that Bran and Sam pooled their knowledge this quickly (or that Sam even realized he had his part of the puzzle).
> 
> I'm also a little surprised that the rift between Cersei and Jamie happened this soon. But I'm not surprised that Cersei being sane was just a ruse.
> 
> Things are really moving fast!


Looks like Sam knew what Gilly was talking about. He didn't think it was important until Bran gave him the rest of the info. He'd better be able to put things together quickly if he is going to be the Grand Maester.

The Sansa/Arya plan to trap Baelish was great. Sansa learns slowly but she learns. Wonder if Arya will use his face next season.

Oh. And wow. The wall came tumblin down. Lookedore like ice than fire.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

It's going to be way too long before the next season starts. Seems like there's a lot to wrap up in only six episodes.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

The only reason I could see Arya using Littlefinger's face would be if she set up a meeting with Cersei as a ruse that Littlefinger was going to doublecross the Starks and used the meeting to kill her. The only problem is that it was a very public death, so it's unlikely that word won't get back to Cersei.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I didn't expect Littlefinger to die.

The ending was much more predictable though. Still cool to watch, but predictable.


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

So I guess that dragon was breathing magic.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

And baby makes three. Targaryens. Banging a fellow Targaryan is what's going to make it happen.

I think it was the same actor playing Rhaegar. That made my skin crawl.

Now that there are two dragons and two (adult) Targaryans I suppose that she's will ride who. Jon will get to ride the dragon named after his father.

Also that big talk about having two fathers takes on extra meaning. Jon is a Stark and a Targaryen like Theon is a Greyjoy and a Stark.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Did anyone else think of Peggy Hill during Theon's fight?



Spoiler


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

I had to laugh when Bronn and Poderick went off for a drink together before the meeting. I guess that's one way to keep Bronn and Cersei from being on the set together. They must really hate each other.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I was excited, and disappointed. They checked a few things off of the list, but there were some slow spots, too. When they rerun this I wonder if they'll cut it down to 60 minutes, or leave it at 80.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

He hit Theon in the one place that wouldn't hurt him!

Loved it when Sansa and Arya revealed their plan. The look on Littlefinger's face was priceless!

And there I thought Euron was going to be the only sensible one. They can't cross water? Fine, I'm going home. Y'all have fun!

Varys thought Littlefinger wanted to be king of the ashes. He's got nothing on Cersai.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Man! Baelish's death came way too quickly. Obviously Bran told Sansa and Arya everything they needed to know. But it would have been cool, as a flashback, them getting the information on Little Finger.

I too think that was the same actor who played Viserys. And it was confusing seeing Tyrion's reaction. I guess he thinks that Jon would have more influence?


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Harry Lloyd played Viserys.
Wilf Scolding played Rhaegar.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It looked more like they were wearing the same wig that that they were the same person.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Looke more like ice than fire.


I thought it was ice at first, but clearly it was blue fire. Blue is the hottest color of fire. The whole "burn down a the ice wall" thing seemed like a plot hole for anyone who's watched mythbusters (a little 2 foot cube of ice stood up to a flamethrower for like 45 minutes and as I recall it was barely melted). But mythbusters never got to debunk blue fire vs ice, so I guess we're still good 

Very good episode, and unlike last week I think we were fairly solid in the writing this week. Cersei was indeed smart enough to figure out that one of the dragons was dead. But of course she's deluded. Not sure what she expects to do once everyone in the north is killed by the white walkers. I mean, I guess she could (as a variation of what someone here suggested last week) put together the largest engineering effort since the construction of the wall and instead dig a giant moat across the neck and hope it doesn't freeze over or that the white walkers don't discover rafts.

Glad to see the hard-to-swallow sansa vs arya was not actually true. Though I must admit I'm pretty sad to see littlefinger dead. Since season 1, there's been a small part of me hoping that "king of the ashes" thing played out. But despite GRRM repeatedly killing all of those characters we love, I figured we'd never get an ending that brutal. But I guess it was Littlefingers time to go. He worked all that time to get himself an army, but he seemed to have sort of backed himself in a corner without a whole lot of room to grow. His character has stagnated.

I loved the whole overlay effect of "yeah, they're doing 'it'....by the way, they're brother and sister, you know"  It was almost like a comedy moment. Odd that Bran had seen so many things but he missed out on that one small part.

So what's up with Jamie. Is he really riding off by himself? No armies (and scorpions) to take with him? Strange, in that I'm not sure what he'll do to help (other than warn them about Cersei's real plan). But at least glad he made it out of there alive. I really believed there for a moment that Cersei was crazy enough to kill him.

The whole Euron thing was perhaps the one odd part. They had that all pretty well planned out considering they had no idea there was going to be a wight in Kings Landing. Maybe the plan was supposed to be that Cersei agrees to the truce and Euron just says "What??? F this BS, I'm outta here" and when he saw the wight he just improvised.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I loved Bran saying Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie. 

This episode was almost 90min and it felt rushed, weird!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

By the way, did anyone streaming it via HBO Now have the stream go to utter crap about 40-45 minutes into it (while littlefinger and sansa were discussing Arya)? It just started pausing for 10 seconds, playing for another 10 seconds and then pausing again. After living with that for about 3 minutes I was glad I had a torrent download already complete and switched to that.


----------



## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

I watched it on HBO Go and the stream was perfectly fine.

Also, Dany finally got a few inches of Snow.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I loved Bran saying Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie.


True, but at the same time he was sitting right there while Littlefinger was accused of using a lie to start the whole war between Starks and Lannisters, when it fact it really WAS the Lannisters to blame for pushing Bran from the tower. Though maybe the fall was so traumatic that he had lost all memory of it, even despite his 3ER abilities.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I mean, I guess she could (as a variation of what someone here suggested last week) put together the largest engineering effort since the construction of the wall and instead dig a giant moat across the neck and hope it doesn't freeze over or that the white walkers don't discover rafts.


Or dragons. Was it the NK on the Dragon, or the horse?

Why not fly right to KL with your new dragon and start converting some of that million in the south?


----------



## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I loved the whole overlay effect of "yeah, they're doing 'it'....by the way, they're brother and sister, you know"


Nope. She's his aunt.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stamasd said:


> Also, Dany finally got a few inches of Snow.


So did Kings Landing, though I'm not sure why one reminded me of the other. But since I guess I'm doing word association..."a few inches" reminds me of Dany saying he's small, and speaking of small, I loved Theon getting kneed in the nuts repeatedly to no effect. Don't all the Iron Born know what happened to him? I could have sworn that was common knowledge, so that guy should have known better. Maybe he forgot for a split second but you'd think after the first hit he'd be like "oh yeah".


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Great episode. They hit every plot they needed to, and set us up for the final season. The snow in King's Landing was... unexpected.



pendragn said:


> I was excited, and disappointed. They checked a few things off of the list, but there were some slow spots, too. When they rerun this I wonder if they'll cut it down to 60 minutes, or leave it at 80.


What?!? Why would they cut one second from this?


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> True, but at the same time he was sitting right there while Littlefinger was accused of using a lie to start the whole war between Starks and Lannisters, when it fact it really WAS the Lannisters to blame for pushing Bran from the tower. Though maybe the fall was so traumatic that he had lost all memory of it, even despite his 3ER abilities.


Maybe he's thankful. Otherwise he would have never become the "3ER".


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Or dragons. Was it the NK on the Dragon, or the horse?
> 
> Why not fly right to KL with your new dragon and start converting some of that million in the south?


Well, she couldn't exactly see that coming. I don't think she knows how it all works yet and that stealing a dragon is a possibility (unless Qyburn is familiar with the details of the legends).

And as for the night king, I'm not sure he even knows about kings landing. Unless he had a sit down conversation with Craster or absorbs the memories of the wights, or has his own 3ER-like abilities (which is possibles as some suggested he knew he was going to get the dragon there which is why he setup that ambush and then just waited) I don't think he knows what to expect south of the wall, does he? Kings Landing has only existed since Aegon's Conquest, and the white walkers haven't been south of the wall for 8000(?) years.



stamasd said:


> Nope. She's his aunt.


Uhhh, I knew that. Not sure what got into me there, but still....same effect.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Not exactly a long, drawn out trial for LF!

I do wonder about Jaime. He's riding North to join that fight by himself because he promised? Leaving Bronn as the only likeable character on Cersei's side? If he would switch too....

Jaime _could_ tell them that the Lannister's aren't coming _and_ about Euron's ruse. But maybe helping the fight in the North doesn't extend to giving away the latter.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> True, but at the same time he was sitting right there while Littlefinger was accused of using a lie to start the whole war between Starks and Lannisters, when it fact it really WAS the Lannisters to blame for pushing Bran from the tower. Though maybe the fall was so traumatic that he had lost all memory of it, even despite his 3ER abilities.


But Robert wouldn't have been there had Jon Arryn not died, nor would he have asked Ned to be his Hand. So while Jaime pushing Bran from the tower led to Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, and things escalating from there, Petyr set all of that in motion by convincing Lysa to poison her husband.

Speaking of Lysa, the lords of the Vale seemed to accept Sansa's admission of lying to them about her death rather well. Petyr might have killed her, but Sansa lied about it to them. I guess she could have defended herself to them by saying she was scared.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Although I guess technically it was just Lord Royce there, and he was probably too happy to have Petyr "I think he deserves one more chance" Baelish out of the way to worry about Sansa having lied to him.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Is it just me or do those Iron Island guys change allegiance at the drop of a hat, or what?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is it just me or do those Iron Island guys change allegiance at the drop of a hat, or what?


More like a drop of a leader. Seems they follow whoever wins a fight.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> By the way, did anyone streaming it via HBO Now have the stream go to utter crap about 40-45 minutes into it (while littlefinger and sansa were discussing Arya)? It just started pausing for 10 seconds, playing for another 10 seconds and then pausing again. After living with that for about 3 minutes I was glad I had a torrent download already complete and switched to that.


I started late so it happened to me during the wight reveal. It also delayed my start.


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

So, zombie dragons breathe lasers like Godzilla. Who knew?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

teknikel said:


> I started late so it happened to me during the wight reveal. It also delayed my start.


I found a story about it to confirm it was widespread.
Game of Thrones season 7 finale: HBO Go crashes


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Wow


----------



## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Robin said:


> And baby makes three. Targaryens. Banging a fellow Targaryan is what's going to make it happen.
> 
> I think it was the same actor playing Rhaegar. That made my skin crawl.
> 
> ...


So does that make Daenerys Jon's Aunt??


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> Too fast! I also was relieved when shown that Arya and Sansa were working together. Whew. Would there be any use to having LF's face now?
> 
> Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing.
> 
> ...


Has a "major" character died off screen in GOT? Doesn't seem like a thing they do.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

You would think that after seeing undead horses, bears, giants, who knows what, that somebody might have thought that an undead dragon was a possibility.

Not sure what they could do about it, and now they'll know, but still.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Has a "major" character died off screen in GOT? Doesn't seem like a thing they do.


Yeah, I just assumed that in the season premiere we'll see him crawling out from the rubble...


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Kamakzie said:


> So does that make Daenerys Jon's Aunt??


Yes. Jons father is Dani' s brother.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Yes. Jons father is Dani' s brother.


They've made a huge mistake.

Nah, it's GOT

-smak-


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

smak said:


> Has a "major" character died off screen in GOT? Doesn't seem like a thing they do.


Stannis. Many people were questioning whether or not Brienne had actually killed him.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

The next season is going to start with the cold open of Cersei receiving the following message:


> Dear Cersei,
> 
> Please forgive me for having made fun of your relationship with Jaime. I mean, he's your brother, so it's still worse. But now I understand. I understand.
> 
> ...


[Dunnn Dunnn Dun Dun Dunnn Dunnn....]


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Targaryens have been marrying brother to sister as long as they can remember. No biggie. Except for the insanity every now and again.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Much better episode (though still not as good as past seasons). Bronn really should have gone with Jaime.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

smak said:


> Has a "major" character died off screen in GOT? Doesn't seem like a thing they do.
> 
> -smak-


I don't see any way Tormund and Beric could have survived. The Wall was 800 feet tall and they were at the top when it went crashing down.


----------



## leswar (Apr 14, 2005)

getbak said:


> Was that the same actor who played Viserys as Rhaegar?


My question too.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

leswar said:


> My question too.


Already answered.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't see any way Tormund and Beric could have survived. The Wall was 800 feet tall and they were at the top when it went crashing down.


The way I saw it,Tormund didn't go down the stairs...he seemed to run along the top of the wall westward and made it to just past where the ice crumbled. But at that point I was so in awe of what was going on, I forgot Beric was with him, so not sure what happened to him...was he the guy that didn't quite make it off the crumbling ice and fell?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The main reason I think Tormund somehow survived (aside from us not seeing him die) is that I don't think they're done with the character...

Beric, maybe, maybe not. But not Tormund!


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

tlc said:


> Jaime _could_ tell them that the Lannister's aren't coming _and_ about Euron's ruse. But maybe helping the fight in the North doesn't extend to giving away the latter.


Jaimie _is_ an idiot. How does he believe Euron leaving was a setup? Cersie had no knowledge of the white walker 'til it was presented to her.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Littlefinger, in Scooby Doo voice: "Huh?"

Since they have to compress so many plot lines in so few episodes, GoT has essentially become LoTR now. I'm not complaining. There'll be a lot more of action scenes next season.

Dany has two dragons left. One for her and one for Jon. I predict a two against one dragon battle between Dany, Jon and the Night King.

Did anybody else think "Aw, man. Not Theon!" when the previouslies showed him. I don't really care about Yara either at this point of the story.

Maybe Ser Gregor will actually do something next season.

I thought Sansa was being an idiot. I'm glad she wasn't. So what happens to the Nights Of The Vale now?


----------



## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I found a story about it to confirm it was widespread.
> Game of Thrones season 7 finale: HBO Go crashes


Didn't crash for me.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> I found a story about it to confirm it was widespread.
> Game of Thrones season 7 finale: HBO Go crashes


I had a ton of problems and ended up watching about an hour later.



cbrrider said:


> Targaryens have been marrying brother to sister as long as they can remember. No biggie. Except for the insanity every now and again.


As long as they can't/don't make any babies, it's all good, right?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I had problems with the broadcast during the meeting. I rebooted my router and when it came back up, it was working perfectly again through the rest of the episode. I guess that was just coincidence.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

No chance that Dani won't get pregnant, IMO.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

tlc said:


> I had a ton of problems and ended up watching about an hour later.
> 
> As long as they can't/don't make any babies, it's all good, right?


Cersi and Dany can set up a play date with their new babies, while they plan how to get them married.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Dany should have incinerated Cersei 20 seconds after she landed.

Tormund's not dead. He still has to get busy with Brienne.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I think the pregnancy for Cersai is fake. She purposely made Tyrion think she was pregnant. She knew she was losing Jaime and was doing whatever she could to try and bind him to her. In the end, his honor meant more to him than she did. Finally.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I would think it would be consistent to his character that Littlefinger would have a backup plan in case the attempt to split the sisters failed. Like a piece of information to bargain for his freedom.

"I loved you. I am Lord of the Vale" on his knees seemed a little weak for him.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> No chance that Dani won't get pregnant, IMO.


Yeah, last week Tyrion brought up succession, this week Jon pointed out the witch could be wrong, and then they did the deed. I think their kid ends up on the throne.

I still think Tyrion could be Targarian as well.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Yeah, last week Tyrion brought up succession, this week Jon pointed out the witch could be wrong, and then they did the deed. I think their kid ends up on the throne.
> 
> I still think Tyrion could be Targarian as well.


I think we may flash forward toward the end of the final season with Jon/Dany's son (I am just assuming a son, not sure why) on the thrown. I get the feeling that Jon, Dany, Cersie and maybe Jamie will die before the series ends (and I'm betting Arya as Littlefinger initially ends up killing her as last on her list).

The Dragon's blue fire was way cool. Initially I thought it was ice, but didn't think ice could destroy the all, had to be fire.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Excellent. 

I'm pretty tough on this show but this episode was fabulous.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Oh, but I do question Theon being at the big meet in Kings Landing. Why was he brought along?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Cersie will die giving birth to a dwarf.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> I would think it would be consistent to his character that Littlefinger would have a backup plan in case the attempt to split the sisters failed. Like a piece of information to bargain for his freedom.
> 
> "I loved you. I am Lord of the Vale" on his knees seemed a little weak for him.


I think he just vastly overestimated himself with regard to Arya and Sansa. He didn't think a backup plan was necessary because he's so AWESOME and they're just dumb girls.


SullyND said:


> I still think Tyrion could be Targarian as well.


That has always struck me as a theory grounded more in fanfic than in the show (or books). They've really done nothing whatsoever to set it up (cf. Jon Snow, where they've spent the entire series setting up what paid off last night).


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing.


Two theories I read about for this. One is in the original outline that GRRM sent to publishers for the book series where believe it or not, Jon was supposed to fall in love with Arya and Tyrion was as well. So the theory is, that rather than Arya it was changed to Dany and with that Tyrion's love is for Dany as well. He's done things like send Jorah from Mareen because he was in love with Dany, and sent her other lover in Mareen who's name escapes me away as well.

The other theory is that she's just TOO important and Tyrion is trying to keep her eye on the ball, and these love interests are distracting her from what she needs to do.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


Maybe it's just not in Sansa to do the actual killing. I don't remember, was Littlefinger on Arya's list? if so, maybe that was the reason.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Family said:


> "I loved you. I am Lord of the Vale" on his knees seemed a little weak for him.


On one hand, it would've been nice to see him accept his fate without begging. He knew what playing the Game usually means. On the other hand, he's not supposed to be a strong character.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Maybe it's just not in Sansa to do the actual killing. I don't remember, was Littlefinger on Arya's list? if so, maybe that was the reason.


If he wasn't before, he was as soon as she heard about him betraying Ned.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

TampaThunder said:


> Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


Agreed. That was the one thing that really bugged me.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ClutchBrake said:


> Agreed. That was the one thing that really bugged me.


That didn't bug me at all. It seemed perfectly in character for both Sansa and Arya.

Sansa's trying, but she's no Ned Stark...not by a long shot. I doubt she ever paid much attention when Ned was instructing the boys on how to be a good lord. And Arya, well, she's a sociopathic killing machine.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> He hit Theon in the one place that wouldn't hurt him!


That was one of the very few and minor issues for me. If someone kicked me as hard as they can in my arm, it would really hurt. And I don't have any testicles in my arm!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> The main reason I think Tormund somehow survived (aside from us not seeing him die) is that I don't think they're done with the character...
> 
> Beric, maybe, maybe not. But not Tormund!


Beric must still have a role to play. So far, he has done nothing to merit being revived 6 times that anyone else wouldn't have done.



SullyND said:


> I still think Tyrion could be Targarian as well.


As Rob pointed out, they have not shown a single thing to indicate any possibility that this is true. This theory is nothing but wishful thinking with no basis in fact whatsoever. It's like me hoping I'd win the lottery but without buying or getting a ticket by any means.



TampaThunder said:


> Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


As others have said, Sansa is incapable of doing something like that. I doubt she can even hold a sword properly. She is a lady.

One big problem: why did Bran initially say Jon's last name should be Sand? He knew who the mother and father were; and neither of them was from Dorne. Raegar's wife was from Dorne; but she didn't give birth to Jon. Can someone explain to be what I missed?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

SoBelle0 said:


> Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing.


I don't think it was jealousy. He might be worried that Daenerys will do something stupid because of her feelings for Jon. That was the main reason she went north to save them, and ended up losing a dragon.

It's also possible that he at least suspects, if not knows, that Cersei is double-crossing them, but is holding back that information because of his concern for his family. He feels guilty about the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen, and doesn't want the same fate for another of Jaime and Cersei's children.

Cersei called Jaime "the stupidest Lannister". But why would she think that Tyrion hadn't also fallen for her ruse? Why not instead say, "You are as stupid as your brother"? Does she either know or suspect that Tyrion is aware of her betrayal?

I think the main reason Tyrion pushed for the meeting was in the hope that uniting everyone against the White Walkers would keep at least Jaime from being killed, if not also Cersei. When Cersei initially rejected their offer, he went to plead with her because of his caring for their family. And then when he found out she was pregnant, perhaps it was he that convinced Cersei to tell Daenerys what she wanted to hear in order to get her armies away from King's Landing.

He might not know about Euron, so perhaps he thinks that even if Cersei doesn't follow through with her promise, she won't be much of a threat. And that could be how he is justifying the withholding of information to himself. But he might still be feeling guilty about it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anyone else think "Poor Photoshopgirl" when LittleFinger was killed?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> One big problem: why did Bran initially say Jon's last name should be Sand? He knew who the mother and father were; and neither of them was from Dorne. Raegar's wife was from Dorne; but she didn't give birth to Jon. Can someone explain to be what I missed?


Because Jon was a bastard (as far as Bran knew at the moment) born in Dorne. I don't think parentage matters so much as location when it comes to bastard surnames.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Oh, but I do question Theon being at the big meet in Kings Landing. Why was he brought along?


With Yara gone, Theon was in charge of the Ironborn "fleet" (you know, all 1 or 2 ships), which is one of Dany's allies.



uncdrew said:


> Cersie will die giving birth to a dwarf.


And as the icing on the cake, she dies giving birth (but she needs to live just long enough to see the baby and know it's a dwarf).



tlc said:


> If he wasn't before, he was as soon as she heard about him betraying Ned.


Every time Arya has found a new person to add to the list, she recites the list and then appends the new name. It would have been a nice touch if she had done that just before slitting his throat.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> That didn't bug me at all. It seemed perfectly in character for both Sansa and Arya.


And I think it was no coincidence that they purposely had them flat out saying that, in contrast to all the other Starks reciting Ned's line.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Another theory about Tyrions' concerns.....

We don't know how Tyrion got Cersei to "agree" with the alliance, but one reason may be to bring up the line of succession. If they all are able to fend off the White Walkers, they may agree to allow Cersei's child to rule after Dany, since Dany cannot supposedly have children.

This plan may be out of window, once he realized that Dany will probably share her throne with Jon Snow (aka, Aegon Targaryen).


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

tlc said:


> On one hand, it would've been nice to see him accept his fate without begging. He knew what playing the Game usually means. On the other hand, he's not supposed to be a strong character.


To me, this was totally in character for Littlefinger. He has always reminded me of the bully that thinks he is in control (and usually is.) But, when he was unmasked and knew his fate was sealed, he curled up like a baby and begged for mercy.

I loved that the head of the Knights of the Vale just looked at him like, "Are you kidding me? You want me to save you?"


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anyone else notice Qyburn's reaction to see the Wight? He almost had a gleam in eye as if he was thinking "man, I got to get me one of these! Imaging what I can make now."


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Jaimie _is_ an idiot. How does he believe Euron leaving was a setup? Cersie had no knowledge of the white walker 'til it was presented to her.


I think she knew that Daenerys and Company were at least convinced enough of some kind of threat to be willing to have the meeting in the first place.

Even if they didn't have the wight, and Cersei didn't believe them, Euron could have said, "I have seen enough of the world to be convinced that the threat could be real. And I'm not staying around to find out who is right."

Cersei needed an excuse for Euron to leave, and also assurances that her armies wouldn't be attacked until he got back. Since it was Daenerys who was pushing for the truce, I think she felt her plan would work out regardless of what exactly happened in the meeting.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Excellent.
> 
> I'm pretty tough on this show but this episode was fabulous.


Hmm. I'm usually in agreement with you but not on this one. I thought for such a long finale it was pretty weak. Nearly all of the big moments/reveals have been telegraphed all season, so there was very little suspense or drama.

As others have said, the whole Euron ploy was flimsy. I suppose he was going to make up any excuse to "flee" to Pyke (head to Essos) - but what if there was no wight? What if Jon had said "yes, they can swim....in fact they have a fully functioning skeleton Navy."
Dany had all of her enemies in a contained area and would not have laid waste to Kings Landing or harmed the civilian population, and she didn't just _Draecarys_?
I am curious what Sandor meant when he told Gregor "you've always known what's coming for you."
Both of Cersei's brothers dared her to commit Fratricide via the Mountain. I admit I was a little concerned that Jamie was going to come to an end - so kudos to them on that.
Littlefinger's fall was so anti-climactic. More than anyone, he's been the one manipulating the game pieces from the very beginning. He essentially started the War of the Five Kings with his treachery. He has certainly hinted that he knew the truth about Rhaegar & Lyanna, so he might have even played a part in starting Robert's Rebellion under false pretense. Purple Wedding? Yep. For him to get outwitted by dumdum Sansa...?
I did enjoy Theon's redemption, though as someone else said I don't think Yara is that important to most of the audience
Bran and Sam scene fell flat since R+L=J has been long since confirmed, and the "hints" since last season have been so heavy handed it felt like they were trying to shock the audience with what is now common knowledge
They've had how long since the events of "Beyond the Wall" and Eastwatch has done nothing to shore up defenses? Obviously they weren't expecting an ice dragon but why did Tormund look so surprised when the army of the dead showed up? No moat, or trench of fire, dragonglass minefield, etc? They were a lot more ready for Mance Rayder at Castle Black.
I'm thinking Tyrion had that look because he's either worried about losing influence to Jon (he already has, somewhat) and doesn't think Jon capable of the right legacy, or (and this would be a big twist) Cersei flipped him back to the Lannister side, and he's in on the false pledge of support.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I am very curious how Danyers is going to take the news that Jon (Aegon) is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. She has been working for years to take Westeros and rule, but she has always based her claim on her being the only living Targaryn decedent of the Mad King. But, now Jon is going to be reveled to be the rightful heir. I don't see he just stepping aside and saying "Ok, you are king." Also, how will Jon react as he has never wanted to rule. I suspect he is somewhat glad to bend the knee to Dany and allow her to rule.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't see any way Tormund and Beric could have survived. The Wall was 800 feet tall and they were at the top when it went crashing down.


Only part of the wall went, they essentially ripped it up but there was a large gape that fell and the rest for miles probably still stood (for now).



Family said:


> I would think it would be consistent to his character that Littlefinger would have a backup plan in case the attempt to split the sisters failed. Like a piece of information to bargain for his freedom.
> 
> "I loved you. I am Lord of the Vale" on his knees seemed a little weak for him.


It was weak for him. He's a smart man that plays every scenario in his head remember? This IMO was bad writing. I'm not saying he didn't do the things accused or perhaps deserved to die but he's also for whatever the reason saved Sansa as much as he has hurt her. They'd all be dead right now if he hadn't gotten the Vale to march in and save Jon and co. Just saying. He's a snake but this thing with Sansa/Arya was far faaaaaaaaaaaaar more stupid than the Baelish they've shown us for 6 previous seasons. Disappointing death.



TampaThunder said:


> Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


She couldn't do it. Even if she could swing a sword she couldn't do it. Did you see the tears in her eyes as she passed the sentence? She cared for him too in her own warped way.



Anubys said:


> Anyone else think "Poor Photoshopgirl" when LittleFinger was killed?


At least someone thought of me!!!!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> I am very curious how Danyers is going to take the news that Jon (Aegon) is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. She has been working for years to take Westeros and rule, but she has always based her claim on her being the only living Targaryn decedent of the Mad King. But, now Jon is going to be reveled to be the rightful heir. I don't see he just stepping aside and saying "Ok, you are king." Also, how will Jon react as he has never wanted to rule. I suspect he is somewhat glad to bend the knee to Dany and allow her to rule.


My theory for some time has been that he agrees to recognize her as Queen, and she agrees to let the North remain (relatively) independent. That way, they both basically get what they want.

(And then they both die in winning the Great War, and Tyrion becomes king. )


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That has always struck me as a theory grounded more in fanfic than in the show (or books). They've really done nothing whatsoever to set it up (cf. Jon Snow, where they've spent the entire series setting up what paid off last night).


I agree, but to be fair, I think speculation about Tyrion being a Targaryen was to fill what I'll call a dragon rider void. If one dragon is for Dany and the other for Jon, who would ride the third? At least through the first four books in the series, nobody fit the bill so Tyrion was as good of a guess as any. Obviously, now that we have a zombie dragon, there's no need to guess about a third rider.

On another note, I'm still convinced that rather than a reference to both Dany and Jon, Jon alone is the song of ice and fire to whom the series title refers.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he just vastly overestimated himself with regard to Arya and Sansa. He didn't think a backup plan was necessary because he's so AWESOME and they're just dumb girls.


Also, as Sansa pointed out, I think he truly was in love with her. She knew what he wanted, to rule the Seven Kingdoms with her at his side, and that was his weakness. On the flip side, he thought he knew what Sansa wanted: power. And he attempted to use that knowledge to manipulate her. But because he didn't know what she truly valued, family, he underestimated her ability to manipulate him. She beat him at his own game.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> .
> 
> At least someone thought of me!!!!!!


I thought the exact same thing, I'm surprised I had to read through 5 pages until you posted.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

MacThor said:


> I am curious what Sandor meant when he told Gregor "you've always known what's coming for you."


I think he was saying, I'm going to kill you and you know it. This is why you tried to kill me as a kid putting my face in a fire. I am your Achilles heel. Cleganebowl 2019 confirmed.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he just vastly overestimated himself with regard to Arya and Sansa. He didn't think a backup plan was necessary because he's so AWESOME and they're just dumb girls.


Not to steal a line from Scooby-Doo, but he was right about that until Bran came along and could see everything. That's tough to plan for.



Anubys said:


> One big problem: why did Bran initially say Jon's last name should be Sand? He knew who the mother and father were; and neither of them was from Dorne. Raegar's wife was from Dorne; but she didn't give birth to Jon. Can someone explain to be what I missed?


Like others have said, I think the bastard surname seems to come from _where_ the bastard is born, not _to whom_. Bran said as much, "Bastards in Dorne are called Sand." It's odd, I agree, but they explained it.


MacThor said:


> As others have said, the whole Euron ploy was flimsy. I suppose he was going to make up any excuse to "flee" to Pyke (head to Essos) - but what if there was no wight? What if Jon had said "yes, they can swim....in fact they have a fully functioning skeleton Navy."


I think Euron's exit was planned, but maybe the reason for it was not. I think Cersei had the whole thing laid out, but was smart enough to know she might not know what the triggers would be. I think she planned on a couple of things, once she realized that she was in over her head, she needed Euron to go get the sellswords. She wouldn't have known for sure exactly what put her over that line though. Second, she needed to get mad, leave, and be brought back in order to get more credibility. So while she couldn't have known that Jon wasn't going to agree to her terms, she was planning at some point to get mad and stomp away. That's how I took it.


MacThor said:


> Sandor meant when he told Gregor "you've always known what's coming for you."


Foreshadowing for Clegane Bowl, poor and simple. 


MacThor said:


> I did enjoy Theon's redemption, though as someone else said I don't think Yara is that important to most of the audience


I did not like it. It was so out of character for Theon and it seemed like it was trying too hard for the Hollywood ending for him.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> As others have said, Sansa is incapable of doing something like that. I doubt she can even hold a sword properly.


Man, if you thought Theon was a poor executioner, just think what Sansa would be like.



MacThor said:


> Bran and Sam scene fell flat since R+L=J has been long since confirmed, and the "hints" since last season have been so heavy handed it felt like they were trying to shock the audience with what is now common knowledge


Yes, it's all been pretty well laid out, but there are viewers who don't read the forums and don't think that deeply into things. So I'm sure there were a few clueless people whose jaws dropped last night. They had to just get it out of the way for their sake.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he just vastly overestimated himself with regard to Arya and Sansa. He didn't think a backup plan was necessary because he's so AWESOME and they're just dumb girls.


That goes against his 'expect the worst." I know he was referring to people's motives, but in this case the motives were based on the truth, so to be in character he would have to be better prepared.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

3D said:


> I agree, but to be fair, I think speculation about Tyrion being a Targaryen was to fill what I'll call a dragon rider void. If one dragon is for Dany and the other for Jon, who would ride the third? At least through the first four books in the series, nobody fit the bill so Tyrion was as good of a guess as any. Obviously, now that we have a zombie dragon, there's no need to guess about a third rider.
> 
> On another note, I'm still convinced that rather than a reference to both Dany and Jon, Jon alone is the song of ice and fire to whom the series title refers.


I am always a little cautious here because, the books (and more importantly people who have way more time than I do to analyze this) have some very not-so-subtle hints that re-enforce this theory. But, how much of these hints have been shown in the show. For me, what I am posting is not proof, but I feel they are enough of clues that the Tyrion is a Dragon theory is plausible.



Spoiler



The biggest clue is that Tywin has always said that Tyrion is "not my son." On the surface, that comes across as Tywin just being his usual d*ck self and not wanting to recognize that a dwarf could be his son.

But, it is also called out that the Mad King had a big crush on Tywin's wife several times. It is not a stretch to believe that the Mad King had an affair/raped Tywin's wife/Tyrion's mother and that resulted in Tyrion's conception. Tywin, being proud, would not want that to become public knowledge.

I also like the poetry that Dany, Jon, and Tyrion's moms all died in Childbirth.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> Not to steal a line from Scooby-Doo, but he was right about that until Bran came along and could see everything. That's tough to plan for.


I don't think he was ever right. Arya played him like a fiddle (letting him see her following him when she could have used another face to do it; letting him think he tricked her into "finding" the letter). Bran gave them what they needed to kill him, but I don't think they ever fell for his plan. They just let him think so.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TampaThunder said:


> Very glad they finally put the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger storyline to rest. As soon as I saw Bran sitting next to Sansa I sort of figured he had told her everything and that it was all a set up. Only niggle I had is it wasn't Sansa that killed Baelish. Ned Stark executing the deserting Night's Watchman in S1 E1, Robb Stark offing Lord Karstark, Jon Snow and Janos Slynt and then later Alliser Thorne, etc. - they've always made a point that "the man that passes the sentence should swing the sword". But here we get Arya saying to Sansa, "You passed the sentence, I'm just the executioner". Just seemed a little off to me.


They're little girls -- still figuring it out.

Plus could you imagine Sansa trying to kill someone? I'm not sure she could get it right.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Thoughts on the episode other than Baelish 

I was happy to see the moments with Jon and Theon and him forgiving Theon. Dude ****ed up massively but IMO he's more than paid his dues for that and has tried to make amends and do the right thing now. His fight with the Ironborn ******* was great too. I'm glad he's going after Yara!

Jon and Dany, we saw it coming but it didn't make it less yuck for me. I have a feeling they aren't going to believe or care that it's true because they aren't going to stop unless one of them dies. 

Why didn't Cercei kill Tyrion? I get why she didn't Jaime but she loathes Tyrion, always has. That really made no sense to me. Not that I wanted her to but what was her motivation behind not doing it when he was goading her? I swear for a second I really thought she gave the order for Jaime to be murdered. I'm glad that didn't happen. 

The wall makes no sense to me. I thought we were told it was more than just the ice that held things up. I thought it was magic that stopped the dead from crossing. Are we to believe that's changed now because of the dragon? I mean I guess the egg becoming a real dragon could be classified as magic but I thought it was more about Dany than the dragon itself. Just a bit on the fence on my feelings on this. Tormund isn't dead. Beric may be, I'll have to watch again but I thought both of them made it to the part that didn't come down. 

LOVED the scenes with Bronn/Tyrion/Podric and Brienne and Jaime. I missed those interactions more than I realized. 

Also the Hound is always good for some laughs. I love his "F off" to everyone all the time.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Why didn't Cercei kill Tyrion? I get why she didn't Jaime but she loathes Tyrion, always has. That really made no sense to me. Not that I wanted her to but what was her motivation behind not doing it when he was goading her? I swear for a second I really thought she gave the order for Jaime to be murdered. I'm glad that didn't happen.


Because she needed to make the deal in order for her evil plan to proceed. You could see her grinding her teeth during that scene, but in the end it was more evil for her to let him live than to kill him, so of course she had to let him live!


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

We saw that the wight Jon and Dany brough to King's Landing had no trouble moving around and being a nuisance. If the Wights can get around fine in that Southern Sun, then why do the Others only attack during winter? Maybe The White Walkers can't take the heat, I'm not sure.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> We saw that the wight Jon and Dany brough to King's Landing had no trouble moving around and being a nuisance. If the Wights can get around fine in that Southern Sun, then why do the Others only attack during winter? Maybe The White Walkers can't take the heat, I'm not sure.


Or maybe if they'd just let him be, he would have rotted away?

Although it was cold enough to snow...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JFriday said:


> I thought the exact same thing, I'm surprised I had to read through 5 pages until you posted.


Sorry! The show ended much later than usual and I get up for work at 3:30am so I had to get right to sleep and then got sidetracked by actual work this morning like how dare they.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because she needed to make the deal in order for her evil plan to proceed. You could see her grinding her teeth during that scene, but in the end it was more evil for her to let him live than to kill him, so of course she had to let him live!


I suppose she's smart enough to realize that if she killed him then Dany and dragon co would have just roasted them all right there. Otherwise, it didn't make sense to me.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe if they'd just let him be, he would have rotted away?
> 
> Although it was cold enough to snow...


I read on a wiki somewhere that wights continue to rot after they're reanimated, so that might be it.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Didn't Sansa unleash the hounds on Ramsay? She may not be able to coolly slit someone's throat like Arya but she can kill.

So Theon gets the living poop kicked out of him but ends up winning the fight because the other guy couldn't fathom kneeing someone in the personal area not hurting? Did Theon hit him with a rock or did the other guy just have a glass jaw?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Didn't Sansa unleash the hounds on Ramsay? She may not be able to coolly slit someone's throat like Arya but she can kill.


She ordered the hounds to be unleashed, much like ordering Littkefinger's execution.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I suppose she's smart enough to realize that if she killed him then Dany and dragon co would have just roasted them all right there. Otherwise, it didn't make sense to me.


But her plan was to let Dany and Jon think they had a deal, then raise her armies behind their backs and strike while they were distracted in the North. Since Tyrion was there to "convince" her to do what she was planning to do all along, had she killed him, she would have killed her own plan. You could see she was torn; once she revealed to us what she was really up to, we could understand why. She really really REALLY wanted to kill him, but she couldn't without tossing out her plan to rule all of Westeros.

I suspect if you watch that scene again with that in mind, it will play out quite differently...


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Didn't Sansa unleash the hounds on Ramsay? She may not be able to coolly slit someone's throat like Arya but she can kill.
> 
> So Theon gets the living poop kicked out of him but ends up winning the fight because the other guy couldn't fathom kneeing someone in the personal area not hurting? Did Theon hit him with a rock or did the other guy just have a glass jaw?


I believe he used a rock to bash the guy's head in.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

pendragn said:


> Like others have said, I think the bastard surname seems to come from _where_ the bastard is born, not _to whom_. Bran said as much, "Bastards in Dorne are called Sand." It's odd, I agree, but they explained it.


Yes, that's how they explained it. But IIRC Ned's "cover story" for Jon was never that Jon was born in the North. He came back with a bastard son from a war that was fought in the Riverlands and points south. So his bastard name should have been Jon Waters or Jonny Storm. 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think he was ever right. Arya played him like a fiddle (letting him see her following him when she could have used another face to do it; letting him think he tricked her into "finding" the letter). Bran gave them what they needed to kill him, but I don't think they ever fell for his plan. They just let him think so.


Then why the scene last week in Arya's chambers? Why act out so much tension between the sisters when Baelish wasn't present to witness it?



photoshopgrl said:


> Why didn't Cercei kill Tyrion? I get why she didn't Jaime but she loathes Tyrion, always has. That really made no sense to me. Not that I wanted her to but what was her motivation behind not doing it when he was goading her?


The Unsullied, Dothraki, two dragons etc. at the gates of Kings Landing. That would have been a quick end to her reign, and probably her unborn heir.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That has always struck me as a theory grounded more in fanfic than in the show (or books). They've really done nothing whatsoever to set it up (cf. Jon Snow, where they've spent the entire series setting up what paid off last night).


Can't talk for anyone else (I don't read about GoT elsewhere) but my reasoning is that, like Jon and Dany, Tyrion's Mom died after childbirth. Am I misremembering that about Danys mom?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

SullyND said:


> Can't talk for anyone else (I don't read about GoT elsewhere) but my reasoning is that, like Jon and Dany, Tyrion's Mom died after childbirth. Am I misremembering that about Danys mom?


Yes one of the things always thrown in his face is that his mother died in childbirth.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Jon and Dany will work it out. Dany wants the Iron Throne, Jon does not. If anything, he'll reluctantly agree to be her heir and she'll let him be King of the North (kind of like Prince of Wales).

And in yet another amalgamation of plot threads from the books, Jon's half brother, the real Aegon Targaryen, is alive and besieging the Baratheon stronghold of Storm's End. Jon's real name in the books is still unknown. Not that it matters, but it just made me wonder why they gave him that particular name when they could have given him any other Targaryen first name. In any case, I suspect his reaction when he finds out will be, "Foke that. I'm Jon Snow."


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yes one of the things always thrown in his face is that his mother died in childbirth.


Yeah, he even mentioned it last night, but I was asking about Dany.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That didn't bug me at all. It seemed perfectly in character for both Sansa and Arya.
> 
> Sansa's trying, but she's no Ned Stark...not by a long shot. I doubt she ever paid much attention when Ned was instructing the boys on how to be a good lord. And Arya, well, she's a sociopathic killing machine.


Yeah, I see it as a further example of them supporting each other as a family. Sansa is good at statecraft, but she's still a bit of a wilting flower when it comes to personally committing violence (even with Ramsay, she had the dogs to commit the physical act for her). Meanwhile, Arya would never make a good lady (and maybe not even a good lord), and she knows it, but she's more than happy to get her hands dirty. The two of them together make for one complete ruler. And because it's still "all in the family", the execution was still at least somewhat in keeping with their Northern traditions.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

SullyND said:


> Yeah, he even mentioned it last night, but I was asking about Dany.


Oh sorry! Reading at work so slightly distracted. I don't think she died during but shortly after Dany was born. Unsure of the cause but I'm sure someone here knows.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> And in yet another amalgamation of plot threads from the books, Jon's half brother, the real Aegon Targaryen, is alive and besieging the Baratheon stronghold of Storm's End. Jon's real name in the books is still unknown. Not that it matters, but it just made me wonder *why they gave him that particular name when they could have given him any other Targaryen first name.* In any case, I suspect his reaction when he finds out will be, "Foke that. I'm Jon Snow."


I think you answered your own question, they combined the two characters. Just like they combined Gendry and Edric Storm from the books. They have to tighten a few things up.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Yes, that's how they explained it. But IIRC Ned's "cover story" for Jon was never that Jon was born in the North. He came back with a bastard son from a war that was fought in the Riverlands and points south. So his bastard name should have been Jon Waters or Jonny Storm.


The cover story doesn't matter. We know he was born in Dorne. So does Bran. That means he would be Sand.



MacThor said:


> Then why the scene last week in Arya's chambers? Why act out so much tension between the sisters when Baelish wasn't present to witness it?


Littlefinger probably had "Little Birds" that listen everywhere and they did it for them.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But her plan was to let Dany and Jon think they had a deal, then raise her armies behind their backs and strike while they were distracted in the North.


Strike what? An empty Dragonstone? If the whole army is in the north, what else is there really to attack?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ct1 said:


> Strike what? An empty Dragonstone? If the whole army is in the north, what else is there really to attack?


All the people in the South who turned against her. This would be her chance to re-consolidate her power, so she's ready for whoever wins the Great War.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> The cover story doesn't matter. We know he was born in Dorne. So does Bran. That means he would be Sand.


I wasn't talking about the name Bran gave him. I was talking about the name Ned gave him.

If we accept that Westerosi name their bastards based on where they are born, then as far as Bran knew he was Jon Sand, born in Dorne.
But then Ned should have named him something other than "Snow" when he was a baby, as he was obviously not born in the North.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> The wall makes no sense to me. I thought we were told it was more than just the ice that held things up. I thought it was magic that stopped the dead from crossing. Are we to believe that's changed now because of the dragon? I mean I guess the egg becoming a real dragon could be classified as magic but I thought it was more about Dany than the dragon itself. Just a bit on the fence on my feelings on this. Tormund isn't dead. Beric may be, I'll have to watch again but I thought both of them made it to the part that didn't come down.


Well, a dead dragon breathing blue fire and flying with holes in its wings is magic, too. So magic vs magic.

In the last scene with Tormund, Beric was still beside him. And they were watching the wall collapse several feet from them, so the theory that they ran West is probably good.

Also, after Jon and Dany got busy, there's a scene with Tyrion in the hallway. I think it looked like more than concern for Dany making a mistake. I think he is in love, too.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Yes, that's how they explained it. But IIRC Ned's "cover story" for Jon was never that Jon was born in the North. He came back with a bastard son from a war that was fought in the Riverlands and points south. So his bastard name should have been Jon Waters or Jonny Storm.


I did some reading on this. It seems not completely consistent. From this Wiki page:


> Bastard surnames are dependent on *the region a child was born in, i.e. where the mother is from, not where the father is from.* For example, a noble lord from the Stormlands could father one bastard child in the Vale, and another in the Riverlands, but neither would use the surname "Storm": the first bastard would use the surname "Stone", and the second would use the surname "Rivers." It is extremely unusual for a bastard to know who his nobleman father is, but not his mother. Therefore Jon Snow's situation is additionally unusual, not just because he actually lives with his nobleman father, but because he wasn't even born in the North. Eddard Stark brought him back to Winterfell as an infant after fighting in the south during Robert's Rebellion, but refused to say who his mother was or where she came from. As a result of the mystery surrounding his mother's identity, Jon ended up using the surname "Snow" by default.


So if the mother is from the North, then it's Snow, but what what if she's in Dorne when she gives birth? Very confusing.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> When Cersei initially rejected their offer, he went to plead with her because of his caring for their family. And then when he found out she was pregnant, perhaps it was he that convinced Cersei to tell Daenerys what she wanted to hear in order to get her armies away from King's Landing.
> 
> He might not know about Euron, so perhaps he thinks that even if Cersei doesn't follow through with her promise, she won't be much of a threat. And that could be how he is justifying the withholding of information to himself. But he might still be feeling guilty about it.


I like this.

1. Tyrion was very insistent on going to Cersei alone
2. Last we saw Tyrion with Cersei in her quarters they were not even close to being on the same page
3. Cersei just showed up and was all-of-a-sudden on Team Dragon. Wha?
4. Tyrion did just lecture Jon Sand about "Can't you just lie once in a while for the greater good?"


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Strike what? An empty Dragonstone? If the whole army is in the north, what else is there really to attack?


They mentioned it several times. If Dany marches north with her army then when she comes back she has to reconquer what she's already conquered. Though from what we've seen, I'm unsure what exactly she's conquered other then Casterly Rock.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

MacThor said:


> I wasn't talking about the name Bran gave him. I was talking about the name Ned gave him.
> 
> If we accept that Westerosi name their bastards based on where they are born, then as far as Bran knew he was Jon Sand, born in Dorne.
> But then Ned should have named him something other than "Snow" when he was a baby, as he was obviously not born in the North.


That wiki page sheds more light on that. Normally bastards are named after their mother's region, not their father's. But since Ned would never say who the mother was, Jon couldn't be named after her. He got "Snow" by default since he knew who his father was, and he was from up north.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Meh.

The wall coming down felt cheap to me. I expected it, but I was at least expecting some Bran or Sam "omg that's how the wall can be brought down" moment and not this. 

It felt like 2/3 of this episode was devoted to the meeting which only ever existed so that the reunion fan service could be dialed to 11. 

So we are to assume that Cersei knew there would be a second conversation after she storms out for no real reason during the meeting, or what?!

Theon is going to take 8 guys to fight an entire fleet?

Too much off screen happenings in order to have a surprise and pay off a whole season of pointless little finger plot. How much screen time was put into that plot?

Overall a disappointing end to the season. At least the prior episodes with their stupid plot points and teleportation (of which there was more here) had some moments that felt earned by 6 seasons of build up. Most of this episode didn't.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> That wiki page sheds more light on that. Normally bastards are named after their mother's region, not their father's. But since Ned would never say who the mother was, Jon couldn't be named after her. He got "Snow" by default since he knew who his father was, and he was from up north.


Or to put it another way, Ned lacked the imagination to make up a story about where Jon was from. Which is perfectly within character for him.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> I am very curious how Danyers is going to take the news that Jon (Aegon) is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. She has been working for years to take Westeros and rule, but she has always based her claim on her being the only living Targaryn decedent of the Mad King. But, now Jon is going to be reveled to be the rightful heir. I don't see he just stepping aside and saying "Ok, you are king." Also, how will Jon react as he has never wanted to rule. I suspect he is somewhat glad to bend the knee to Dany and allow her to rule.


Well she'll go from being the Queen (without a King) to being the Queen (with a King).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> The cover story doesn't matter. We know he was born in Dorne. So does Bran. That means he would be Sand.
> 
> Littlefinger probably had "Little Birds" that listen everywhere and they did it for them.


agree about the show for LF's birds...

disagree about the Sand name. He got the Snow name because his father was from the North. We KNOW he wasn't born in the north. So the naming is based on lineage, not birth location.

Edited to add: I really should read all the posts before posting!

Oh, I keep forgetting to post: I'm now changing my vote to the Mountain killing Cersei instead of Jaime!


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or to put it another way, Ned lacked the imagination to make up a story about where Jon was from. Which is perfectly within character for him.


Totally. And the less you lie, the easier it is to keep to the story. Now I want to back and watch Season 1 and see how it lines up with where were are now.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

That works for me - Ned refused to give any hint as to a fake mother, so "Snow" was another part of the cover story. He and Howland Reed transported a baby from one end of the continent to the other, so they probably decided just to call him "Jon" until they got back.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

getbak said:


> I don't normally cheer when watching tv, but when Sansa said, "Lord Baelish", I cheered.


Me too, although it was as much about the writers not being idiots as anything else. There was still a chance that they would play out the feuding sisters storyline, regardless of how little sense it made for the characters. I'm glad they didn't disappoint us there.



> I guess we now know why Sam ignored Gilly when she was talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, he had already transcribed that book. It was old news to him.


One thing about them hitting the fast-forward button on the story: it allows plenty of room for retconning extrapolation to explain bits that don't quite make sense on the surface. In this case, I couldn't figure out how Sam knew it was Lyanna Stark, since Gilly never mentioned that name, and Sam dropped everything and left before without reading that passage himself. But if he had _already_ "read" it while transcribing, then a lot of things fall into place ...possibly including his real reason for leaving the Citadel.

(retcon speculation: ) He probably didn't fully pay attention to what he was transcribing, since the goal was merely to copy the words, and because the subject matter of that book was particularly mind-numbing. But when Gilly mentioned it, he recalled the full passage suddenly realized what it meant. That's why he suddenly dropped everything and left the Citadel; he didn't just want to help in some general way, but rather he had a very important matter to discuss with Jon.

I'm not sure why he wouldn't at least tell Gilly about it, but maybe he was worried about word getting out, with unknown consequences? (I imagine a place that deals in knowledge/information would have at least a few "ears" willing to trade on what they might overhear.)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Irony alert: Jon remained a virgin because he was terrified of having sex with a sister or even his mother. The only woman he had slept with was a wilding who could never be related to him. Out of millions of women, his choice of lovers for the second woman he sleeps with was not a good one.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Also, as Sansa pointed out, I think he truly was in love with her. She knew what he wanted, to rule the Seven Kingdoms with her at his side, and that was his weakness. On the flip side, he thought he knew what Sansa wanted: power. And he attempted to use that knowledge to manipulate her. But because he didn't know what she truly valued, family, he underestimated her ability to manipulate him. She beat him at his own game.


I may be more gullible than most, but didn't y'all have a slight fear that Littlefinger was successfully turning Sansa against Arya?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dcheesi said:


> Me too, although it was as much about the writers not being idiots as anything else. There was still a chance that they would play out the feuding sisters storyline, regardless of how little sense it made for the characters. I'm glad they didn't disappoint us there.
> 
> One thing about them hitting the fast-forward button on the story: it allows plenty of room for retconning extrapolation to explain bits that don't quite make sense on the surface. In this case, I couldn't figure out how Sam knew it was Lyanna Stark, since Gilly never mentioned that name, and Sam dropped everything and left before without reading that passage himself. But if he had _already_ "read" it while transcribing, then a lot of things fall into place ...possibly including his real reason for leaving the Citadel.
> 
> ...


But why was that news important? Sam didn't know that Jon was Lyanna's child or that Lyanna even died in childbirth. There was nothing linking Jon to the couple. All he knew was that his Aunt wasn't really raped by Raegar but instead married to him. Interesting news, certainly, but only became critical information once Bran told him about Jon being their baby.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I swear for a second I really thought she gave the order for Jaime to be murdered. I'm glad that didn't happen.


Me too.

Jaime said "Give the order!" or some such.

Then she nodded to the Mountain.

I thought he was a dead man.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Irony alert: Jon remained a virgin because he was terrified of having sex with a sister or even his mother. The only woman he had slept with was a wilding who could never be related to him. Out of millions of women, his choice of lovers for the second woman he sleeps with was not a good one.


I thought his reasoning was that he didn't want to accidentally make a child that would be raised a bastard like he was raised?


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> But why was that news important? Sam didn't know that Jon was Lyanna's child or that Lyanna even died in childbirth. There was nothing linking Jon to the couple. All he knew was that his Aunt wasn't really raped by Raegar but instead married to him. Interesting news, certainly, but only became critical information once Bran told him about Jon being their baby.


Actually, knowing that Lyanna was married to Raegar (as Bran pointed out) means that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie. That is a huge. Even if Jon was not a Targaryan, it would mean that Dany had a much more legit claim to the Thorne. She can say "See my family was smeared and overthrown for no reason. Back me instead of the B&tch wife of the Unsurper Robert."


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Me too.
> 
> Jaime said "Give the order!" or some such.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm not sure why he isn't.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Oh, I keep forgetting to post: I'm now changing my vote to the Mountain killing Cersei instead of Jaime!


Probably because she keeps teasing him by acting like he's going to get to skewer folks, only to leave him with his sword out and nothing to do.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But her plan was to let Dany and Jon think they had a deal, then raise her armies behind their backs and *strike *while they were distracted in the North. Since Tyrion was there to "convince" her to do what she was planning to do all along, had she killed him, she would have killed her own plan. You could see she was torn; once she revealed to us what she was really up to, we could understand why. She really really REALLY wanted to kill him, but she couldn't without tossing out her plan to rule all of Westeros.
> 
> I suspect if you watch that scene again with that in mind, it will play out quite differently...


Strike where, exactly?

Dany doesn't really have lands or people (other than troops). I doubt she cares much if they occupy Dragonstone. Lannisters already sacked Highgarden. Does Cersie want to go after Dorne?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Question..... I'm not sure if this can or cannot be answered, but did Robert know his rebellion was based on a lie or did he truly in his heart think his sister had been kidnapped and raped and held against her will?


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I may be more gullible than most, but didn't y'all have a slight fear that Littlefinger was successfully turning Sansa against Arya?


Yes, in the sense that I thought that the writers might have been that dumb. Not in the sense that it ever made sense for the characters themselves.



Anubys said:


> But why was that news important? Sam didn't know that Jon was Lyanna's child or that Lyanna even died in childbirth. There was nothing linking Jon to the couple. All he knew was that his Aunt wasn't really raped by Raegar but instead married to him. Interesting news, certainly, but only became critical information once Bran told him about Jon being their baby.


Another reason why Sam might not have paid attention to it the first time. But he's pretty quick on the uptake, ol' Sam is, and the second time around he could very well have connected the dots on his own (as did many viewers/readers, before we even saw the flashback to Bran's father at the tower).


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Question..... I'm not sure if this can or cannot be answered, but did Robert know his rebellion was based on a lie or did he truly in his heart think his sister had been kidnapped and raped and held against her will?


Lyanna was Robert's betrothed, and Ned's sister. I think it's pretty clear that Ned had no idea it was consensual until he was inside that tower. And if Robert had any inkling or doubt about it, that might have just enraged him further.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Question..... I'm not sure if this can or cannot be answered, but did Robert know his rebellion was based on a lie or did he truly in his heart think his sister had been kidnapped and raped and held against her will?


I don't think we've seen anything to suggest he didn't completely believe it. He was in love with Lyanna, so he might have been a bit blinded by that.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> The Dragon's blue fire was way cool. Initially I thought it was ice, but didn't think ice could destroy the all, had to be fire.


I had trouble seeing it as fire in the traditional sense as nothing actually caught fire. There was a lot of wood but none of it caught fire unless I missed it (I was looking for it).


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Lyanna was Robert's betrothed, and Ned's sister. I think it's pretty clear that Ned had no idea it was consensual until he was inside that tower. And if Robert had any inkling or doubt about it, that might have just enraged him further.


Duh! I knew that. Brain burp. But, I guess the question stands. And your answer makes a lot of sense either way.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he just vastly overestimated himself with regard to Arya and Sansa. He didn't think a backup plan was necessary because he's so AWESOME and they're just dumb girls.
> That has always struck me as a theory grounded more in fanfic than in the show (or books). They've really done nothing whatsoever to set it up (cf. Jon Snow, where they've spent the entire series setting up what paid off last night).


The only sign was that he was able to pet a dragon. But maybe the dragon just felt good about him because he is a dwarf.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


I thought that 3 or 4 times.

I even tried to calculate how much harder (or more) a dragon would have to flap its wings to account for the air going through those holes.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


I thought the same thing, but I doubt it will figure into the story.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> The only sign was that he was able to pet a dragon. But maybe the dragon just felt good about him because he is a dwarf.


Or because he was setting him free?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I thought that 3 or 4 times.
> 
> I even tried to calculate how much harder (or more) a dragon would have to flap its wings to account for the air going through those holes.


1.7 times harder is the answer.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> 1.7 times harder is the answer.


Nerd.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think she knew that Daenerys and Company were at least convinced enough of some kind of threat to be willing to have the meeting in the first place.
> 
> Even if they didn't have the wight, and Cersei didn't believe them, Euron could have said, "I have seen enough of the world to be convinced that the threat could be real. And I'm not staying around to find out who is right."
> 
> Cersei needed an excuse for Euron to leave, and also assurances that her armies wouldn't be attacked until he got back. Since it was Daenerys who was pushing for the truce, I think she felt her plan would work out regardless of what exactly happened in the meeting.


Where do you get the idea that they told her WHY they were meeting. She seemed to not know at all. I truly think that either she contacted Euron after he left or she is bluffing.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Question..... I'm not sure if this can or cannot be answered, but did Robert know his rebellion was based on a lie or did he truly in his heart think his sister had been kidnapped and raped and held against her will?


Yes, everyone thought Lyanna was kidnapped. That's why Ned's father went to King's Landing to demand her release. After Ned's father and brother were killed by the Mad King, Robert (who was betrothed to Lyanna), Ned, and Jon Arryn (who raised Ned and Robert at the Eyrie) raised their Armies in rebellion against the Targaryens (Ned's marriage to Cat and Arryn's marriage to Lysa were arranged to bring the Tullys into the fight on their side as well).

If people would have known that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, Robert still would have been mad about her breaking their marriage pact, but it likely wouldn't have led to war.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


Hmm, so the question is 'how much does an inherently magical creature have to work to fly, now that it's unnaturally animated by a different form of magic?' Yeah, I don't think I'll be dusting off the slide-rule for that one 

[ETA: but I did think about that when I was watching  ]


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Didn't Sansa unleash the hounds on Ramsay? She may not be able to coolly slit someone's throat like Arya but she can kill.


Arya is the equivalent of the hounds.



cheesesteak said:


> So Theon gets the living poop kicked out of him but ends up winning the fight because the other guy couldn't fathom kneeing someone in the personal area not hurting? Did Theon hit him with a rock or did the other guy just have a glass jaw?


By now, we know the Iron Born are not the brightest.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


The wings are just used to control direction. It's the helium burning inside the dragon that generates lift.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Yes, that's how they explained it. But IIRC Ned's "cover story" for Jon was never that Jon was born in the North. He came back with a bastard son from a war that was fought in the Riverlands and points south. So his bastard name should have been Jon Waters or Jonny Storm.


Actually, they didn't say it was where they were born, but to whom. Bran said, "Dornish bastards are called Sand." That implies to me that a bastard born to a Dornish person anywhere would still be Sand. Although, there is still a disconnect because why would Bran think Jon was born to a Dornish person when he knows who the parents are. I'm not sure what a Targaryen bastard would be named. Either way, it makes sense for Ned to cover with a new name of Snow.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> Actually, they didn't say it was where they were born, but to whom. Bran said, "Dornish bastards are called Sand." That implies to me that a bastard born to a Dornish person anywhere would still be Sand.


That could be interpreted either way, though. "Bastards born to Dornish people" or "Bastards born in Dorne."


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Robert's Rebellion really started when Jon Arryn refused to kill Ned and Robert, who were at the Eyrie, for the Mad King. This was after the Mad King had killed Ned's father and older brother. But yes, Ned's brother went to the Red Keep based on the lie. Even if someone had said "Stop the madness - Lyanna wasn't really kidnapped" it was probably too late.

There is no reason to believe Ned, Robert or Jon Arryn knew the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna until Ned found out at the tower of Joy.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Theon is going to take 8 guys to fight an entire fleet?


No, he is going to save his sister. Sort of like how four beings snuck into the DeathStar and saved a Princess.

Once he has his sister, then they can work on taking out their uncle (they don't have to defeat the armada, just take care of Euron).


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

by the way, where the heck is ghost???


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> I'm not sure why he wouldn't at least tell Gilly about it, but maybe he was worried about word getting out, with unknown consequences? (I imagine a place that deals in knowledge/information would have at least a few "ears" willing to trade on what they might overhear.)


No, no, no. He knew about the wedding. He didn't know Jon Snow was made from the wedding until Bran told him. The wedding meant nothing to succession by itself.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> by the way, where the heck is ghost???


Lonely in the forest, waiting for the dragons to stop eating up all the damn CGI budget.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> by the way, where the heck is ghost???


Probably getting dizzy... "Gotta run Winterfell to be with Jon...oops, wait, gotta run to Dragonstone to be with Jon...oops, wait, gotta run to the Wall to be with Jon...oops, wait, gotta run to Dragonstone to...y'know? Screw Jon!"


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

NorthAlabama said:


> by the way, where the heck is ghost???


At Winterfell, patiently awaiting Jon's return.

A couple of episodes ago, Sansa said something along the lines of "Jon left me in charge. I'm not just going to sit here doing nothing, waiting for his return, like Ghost."


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> No, he is going to save his sister. Sort of like how four beings snuck into the DeathStar and saved a Princess.
> 
> Once he has his sister, then they can work on taking out their uncle (they don't have to defeat the armada, just take care of Euron).


Or how two hobbits snuck into Mordor and saved Mankind.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Or how two hobbits snuck into Mordor and saved Mankind.


So many stories available to choose from.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Not really expecting and answer. Just an interesting observation. Did Cersei not drink the wine that Tyrion poured for her because she's pregnant......or because the last person in the family that he served wine to died a horrible, foaming at the mouth death?


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Not really expecting and answer. Just an interesting observation. Did Cersei not drink the wine that Tyrion poured for her because she's pregnant......or because the last person in the family that he served wine to died a horrible, foaming at the mouth death?


I don't think Cersei would take a glass of water from Tyrion if she were dying of thirst. Or on fire.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Did Cersei not drink the wine that Tyrion poured for her because she's pregnant...


Even with the Maesters' considerable knowledge, I doubt that Westerosi medicine is aware of any connection between alcohol and pregnancy problems.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I wasn't talking about the name Bran gave him. I was talking about the name Ned gave him.
> 
> If we accept that Westerosi name their bastards based on where they are born, then as far as Bran knew he was Jon Sand, born in Dorne.
> But then Ned should have named him something other than "Snow" when he was a baby, as he was obviously not born in the North.


Ned was pretending the kid was his son. Why shouldn't he lie about whether the kid was Sand or Snow? Sand would indicated Jon wasn't his son and Ned was trying to pretend that he was.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

80 Things You Probably Screamed At Your TV During The "Game Of Thrones" Finale


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My theory for some time has been that he agrees to recognize her as Queen, and she agrees to let the North remain (relatively) independent. That way, they both basically get what they want.
> 
> (And then they both die in winning the Great War, and Tyrion becomes king. )


Wouldn't Drogon be the next in line after Dany? (if he dies and the NK chooses not to revive him then Viserion).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

pendragn said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure why he isn't.


Yes this little nod, I swear my heart sank. Then when he left at first I thought the mountain followed him and I was in a slight panic.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> 1.7 times harder is the answer.





Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.





uncdrew said:


> I thought that 3 or 4 times.
> 
> I even tried to calculate how much harder (or more) a dragon would have to flap its wings to account for the air going through those holes.





pendragn said:


> I thought the same thing, but I doubt it will figure into the story.


LOL, you guys are questioning why an imaginary dragon, ridden by an undead man, that was recently brought back from the dead BY MAGIC, on how it can fly with holes in it's wings.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Ned was pretending the kid was his son. Why shouldn't he lie about whether the kid was Sand or Snow? Sand would indicated Jon wasn't his son and Ned was trying to pretend that he was.


Snow is the more obvious lie.

From last night:
Bran: "Jon isn't really my father's son. He's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and my aunt, Lyanna Stark. He was born in a tower in Dorne. His last name isn't really Snow, it's Sand."
Sam: "It's not."
Bran: "Dornish bastards are named Sand."
Sam proceeds to tell Bran about the annulment and marriage.

Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna are Dornish, so why would Jon be a "Dornish bastard" except for location at birth? And if geography determines bastard surnames, then Snow would be too obvious a lie for Ned's, as Ned wasn't in the North at any time Jon could have been conceived.

If bastards are named based on the (known) parent, Jon Snow makes sense - but then Bran's "Jon Sand" statement makes none. He should have said "Jon Fire" (or whatever Targaryen bastards are called).

The most likely answer is "Sand" is sloppy writing but the writers had to have Bran give him a bastard name so that Sam would spill the beans.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

ACoolDude said:


> 80 Things You Probably Screamed At Your TV During The "Game Of Thrones" Finale


28. For someone who isn't Ned Stark's son by blood, he sure does all the same dumb stuff Ned did.

I actually said to myself, "Just like his father", then I remembered Ned wasn't.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> I had trouble seeing it as fire in the traditional sense as nothing actually caught fire. There was a lot of wood but none of it caught fire unless I missed it (I was looking for it).


The dragon wasn't attacking the top of the wall. It was attacking the middle (and on the North side), where there was nothing at all but ice.



ACoolDude said:


> 80 Things You Probably Screamed At Your TV During The "Game Of Thrones" Finale


1 Thing I Actually Screamed At My TV During "Game Of Thrones" Finale
1. WTF HBO? Fix your streaming infrastructure. What, you didn't think this episode was going to be popular????


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

MacThor said:


> Snow is the more obvious lie.
> 
> From last night:
> Bran: "Jon isn't really my father's son. He's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and my aunt, Lyanna Stark. He was born in a tower in Dorne. His last name isn't really Snow, it's Sand."
> ...


good catch, all the pieces were right there, and i should have seen how those dots didn't connect, but guess i was too busy watching to question the writing.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

allan said:


> 28. For someone who isn't Ned Stark's son by blood, he sure does all the same dumb stuff Ned did.
> 
> I actually said to myself, "Just like his father", then I remembered Ned wasn't.


well, he was raised by ned, so some of the stupid was bound to rub off, as well as the good.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> LOL, you guys are questioning why an imaginary dragon, ridden by an undead man, that was recently brought back from the dead BY MAGIC, on how it can fly with holes in it's wings.


So, I guess you don't want to discuss my thoughts on said dragon being able to hover mid air like a hummingbird?     Kidding.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Was I the only one wondering if the dragon was having trouble flying with all those holes in his wings? And doesn't it stand to reason that the more he decomposes it may be his ability to fly will be diminished? I'm probably way over thinking this.


It doesn't seem to impact the horses' ability to walk.



ClutchBrake said:


> Lonely in the forest, waiting for the dragons to stop eating up all the damn CGI budget.


He almost had a shot, then they just had to bust out that polar bear.



BeanMeScot said:


> Ned was pretending the kid was his son. Why shouldn't he lie about whether the kid was Sand or Snow? Sand would indicated Jon wasn't his son and Ned was trying to pretend that he was.


This made me think: Jon torpedoed their whole plan this episode because he was unwilling to tell a lie for the greater good, thinking he was following in his father's footsteps. Ironically Jon's whole life has been a lie started by said father.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> well, he was raised by ned, so some of the stupid was bound to rub off, as well as the good.


They still share DNA. Ned is Jon's uncle


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I loved it. My only gripe was so many predictions/suspicions/guesses turned out to be correct.

I did think the fight on the beach was a little silly especially how fast the rest of the guys all changed sides.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Where do you get the idea that they told her WHY they were meeting. She seemed to not know at all. I truly think that either she contacted Euron after he left or she is bluffing.


Tyrion told Jaime that the real threat was from the Army of the Dead and asked Jaime to speak to Cersei about agreeing to a meeting where Dany & Co. could show proof of the threat from the north to get Cersei to agree to a temporary truce. So of course Cersei knew WHY they were meeting. She may not have believed that Dany & Co. would actually show up with a wight, but she knew that's what they were claiming. She probably thought it was a trick of some kind and was prepared to counter it. But when she saw it was real, then Euron knew to storm off because the Golden Company would now be more important than ever.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

The Direwolves aren't really CGI enhanced, are they? I think they just use standard photography techniques to make them appear larger. But at this point, I'm not sure what they'd add to the story. 

So if the Cersei theories above are correct, it's yet one more example of how Tyrion has been outwitted and outmaneuvered by his siblings. I can't remember the last piece of good advice this Hand has handed out.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Did anyone else think Jon just wordlessly showing up at Dany's door and inviting himself in was a little ridiculous? I mean, they've made googly eyes at each other a couple times, but there has been no reason for either of them to believe that the other was into it. And then for him to just knock on her door and expect she'll invite him into his bed was a little silly. I was really hoping that's not where the story was going, as the story has always been about those characters independent of any love story, so adding the love story out of thin air at the last minute just seems sloppy.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> LOL, you guys are questioning why an imaginary dragon, ridden by an undead man, that was recently brought back from the dead BY MAGIC, on how it can fly with holes in it's wings.


The laws of physics must be maintained!!!


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I like this.
> 
> 1. Tyrion was very insistent on going to Cersei alone
> 2. Last we saw Tyrion with Cersei in her quarters they were not even close to being on the same page
> ...


The problem with Cersei's lie is its very easy to see through. Even if Jamie doesn't tell everyone about it (which I'm sure he will), the fact that none of the Southern armies show up would be a pretty big giveaway that Cersei is lying.

You would think Cersei would come up with a lie that was less easier to see through. All she would have to do is say she agrees to the truce, without committing her troops. That or say she would use her troops to sure up defenses of the southern lands in case the dead won the battle in the north (which wouldn't be that far from the truth).


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

tlc said:


> As long as they can't/don't make any babies, it's all good, right?


At least there's some Stark blood in the mix. Better than the Targaryens normally do!



Family said:


> I would think it would be consistent to his character that Littlefinger would have a backup plan in case the attempt to split the sisters failed. Like a piece of information to bargain for his freedom.
> 
> "I loved you. I am Lord of the Vale" on his knees seemed a little weak for him.


He thought the Knights of the Vale had his back. Oops.

Has there been any talk of birth defects as a results of Targaryens marrying siblings? Or just madness? That's a possible tick in the column for Tyrion being a Targaryen.



LordKronos said:


> Yes, it's all been pretty well laid out, but there are viewers who don't read the forums and don't think that deeply into things. So I'm sure there were a few clueless people whose jaws dropped last night. They had to just get it out of the way for their sake.


Yep. My husband doesn't read anything online about it and I had to break down the relationships for him last night. He's normally quick to pick up on plot points so if he missed it I'm guessing most people who don't follow along online would miss it too.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did anyone else think Jon just wordlessly showing up at Dany's door and inviting himself in was a little ridiculous? I mean, they've made googly eyes at each other a couple times, but there has been no reason for either of them to believe that the other was into it. And then for him to just knock on her door and expect she'll invite him into his bed was a little silly. I was really hoping that's not where the story was going, as the story has always been about those characters independent of any love story, so adding the love story out of thin air at the last minute just seems sloppy.


Kind of like Sansa and Arya plotting off camera, I think we're to assume that Dany and Jon were doing the same.


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> LOL, you guys are questioning why an imaginary dragon, ridden by an undead man, that was recently brought back from the dead BY MAGIC, on how it can fly with holes in it's wings.


Did you miss the whole "where did the night king get chains" thing?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

morac said:


> The problem with Cersei's lie is its very easy to see through. Even if Jamie doesn't tell everyone about it (which I'm sure he will), the fact that none of the Southern armies show up would be a pretty big giveaway that Cersei is lying.
> 
> You would think Cersei would come up with a lie that was less easier to see through. All she would have to do is say she agrees to the truce, without committing her troops. That or say she would use her troops to sure up defenses of the southern lands in case the dead won the battle in the north (which wouldn't be that far from the truth).


True. Cersei is exposed pretty quickly. And then what? Divert some unsullied to Kings Landing? Abandon the northern fight? Send Drogon to deliver a Dracerus to Cersei?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Robin said:


> Yep. My husband doesn't read anything online about it and I had to break down the relationships for him last night. He's normally quick to pick up on plot points so if he missed it I'm guessing most people who don't follow along online would miss it too.


Agreed. I have a good friend who doesn't read the books or message boards, and after the Tower of Joy scene in S6, I had to explain the whole R+L=J thing to him. Then last night, I had to explain it all over again because he still wasn't clear what it all meant.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> I had trouble seeing it as fire in the traditional sense as nothing actually caught fire. There was a lot of wood but none of it caught fire unless I missed it (I was looking for it).


One explanation I read of this was because Blue Fire, being the hottest of fire would just burn everything to ashes immediately. I wouldn't know as I'm no expert. But it sure melted down the wall (or did it? The wall just started breaking apart, you wonder if this was fire melting ice, wouldn't it have caused a flood?) So yeah, I THINK it was fire, but now, not too sure. I don't think it was ice either.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

If Tormund and Beric are still on top of the Wall, just a little further to the west so the portion they are on didn't fall, then that would mean they were able to witness all of the WW and wights stream through the gap and head for Westeros. The final shot of the episode showed hundreds of thousands had already passed through and were well on their way south. That would take many hours (or years at the speed the WWs have been moving in the previous seasons). So if they lived, the show is going to go back in time and show them sitting on the edge of the Wall, with no way to get down unless they run hundreds of miles atop the wall to the next castle? At which point they'll be behind the WW army and won't have any means of getting a warning to Winterfell (unless they run all the way to Castle Black, which would have ravens).


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Hmm. I'm usually in agreement with you but not on this one. I thought for such a long finale it was pretty weak. Nearly all of the big moments/reveals have been telegraphed all season, so there was very little suspense or drama.
> 
> As others have said, the whole Euron ploy was flimsy. I suppose he was going to make up any excuse to "flee" to Pyke (head to Essos) - but what if there was no wight? What if Jon had said "yes, they can swim....in fact they have a fully functioning skeleton Navy."


Presumably he could say "Then I'm taking my fleet home to defend the Iron Islands - they'll just sail right around your stupid slow land-bound armies."

It wouldn't be that hard to plot for Euron to find a plausible excuse to take his toys and go home. If nothing else the final fallback could be for Cersei to humiliate him to provide the excuse if nothing usable came from the other side of the discussions.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> That could be interpreted either way, though. "Bastards born to Dornish people" or "Bastards born in Dorne."


And it's probably fuzzy because the usage would be fuzzy. Though given that most commoners don't seem to move around that much, in practice the difference between a Dornish person and a person living in Dorn likely isn't much.

But I suspect that when a bastard is born the mother make a decision (quite possibly not a fully conscious one) on which name to use based on what community she identifies more with -- the one she's currently living in or the one she came from.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> One explanation I read of this was because Blue Fire, being the hottest of fire would just burn everything to ashes immediately. I wouldn't know as I'm no expert. But it sure melted down the wall (or did it? The wall just started breaking apart, you wonder if this was fire melting ice, wouldn't it have caused a flood?) So yeah, I THINK it was fire, but now, not too sure. I don't think it was ice either.


When something really hot contacts something really cold, it tends to result in an explosion. Here's a video of ice exploding.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes? Sorry for that run-on sentence.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes? Sorry for that run-on sentence.


This would just be awesome


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes? Sorry for that run-on sentence.


Did the White Walkers specifically choose Eastwatch to attack?

I mean with a dragon that can break the wall, they could attack it anywhere. And perhaps best to do it between the fortresses.

Makes me think that the White Walkers might not have a plan and are just walking. Perhaps cheesesteak is onto something that smart humans can lead the march right to Kings Landing with a few attacks and placing some bait.


----------



## jgickler (Apr 7, 2000)

The holes in the wings are offset by the weight loss of the dragon due to it being dead and starting to decompose. So less surface area is needed for the wings.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Did the White Walkers specifically choose Eastwatch to attack?
> 
> I mean with a dragon that can break the wall, they could attack it anywhere. And perhaps best to do it between the fortresses.
> 
> Makes me think that the White Walkers might not have a plan and are just walking. Perhaps cheesesteak is onto something that smart humans can lead the march right to Kings Landing with a few attacks and placing some bait.


I don't know, it sounds like the whole point of the Army of the Dead is to turn all the Living into Dead. I doubt they'll be leaving many Living in their wake...

I think they attacked Eastwatch because it was there...they were already on the coast, and they just lurched south until they hit Wall, which was at Eastwatch.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Did the White Walkers specifically choose Eastwatch to attack?
> 
> I mean with a dragon that can break the wall, they could attack it anywhere. And perhaps best to do it between the fortresses.
> 
> Makes me think that the White Walkers might not have a plan and are just walking. Perhaps cheesesteak is onto something that smart humans can lead the march right to Kings Landing with a few attacks and placing some bait.


They were already heading for Eastwatch and were less than a day's march away when they got the dragon. So at that point, it would have taken significantly more time for them to go inland just to breach the wall where there wasn't a Nights Watch castle, when the presence of a castle didn't make any difference to them.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> The wings are just used to control direction. It's the helium burning inside the dragon that generates lift.


Hydrogen? Unless helium burns magically.



TonyD79 said:


> Once he has his sister, then they can work on taking out their uncle (they don't have to defeat the armada, just take care of Euron).


At which point, we all know the Iron Bound will switch allegiances. But then Team Dany-Jon will have a Navy again...



cheesesteak said:


> I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes? Sorry for that run-on sentence.


Getting an enemy army to go exactly where you want can be challenging.

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." --Moltke


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Yeah. Hmm...

Were they headed to Eastwatch on purpose? Or just kind of following the coast southward?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah. Hmm...
> 
> Were they headed to Eastwatch on purpose? Or just kind of following the coast southward?


They already attacked at Hardhome, which is on the east coast. So it made sense they would just stay along the east coast. Jon also suspected as much, which is why he sent Tormund and the Wildlings to man Eastwatch since it hadn't been manned in years.


----------



## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I think they just use standard photography techniques to make them appear larger.


Zoom?


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

fmowry said:


> Zoom?


or they moozed the humans


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes?


If they did that, I don't think they'd be the Good Guys anymore.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> If they did that, I don't think they'd be the Good Guys anymore.


Tyrion already talked Dany out of razing Kings Landing and ruling over the ashes..


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Drogon needed a couple of steps and had to beat his wings furiously to take flight as they escaped the NK. In this episode, he simply went straight up with one jump like a rocket after he dropped off Dany.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Drogon needed a couple of steps and had to beat his wings furiously to take flight as they escaped the NK. In this episode, he simply went straight up with one jump like a rocket after he dropped off Dany.


No one on his back this time.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

SoBelle0 said:


> Would there be any use to having LF's face now?


I would think LF could gain access to Cercei given the deference he has shown her in the past and the role he played in bringing her family to power.



SoBelle0 said:


> Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing.





tlc said:


> Also, after Jon and Dany got busy, there's a scene with Tyrion in the hallway. I think it looked like more than concern for Dany making a mistake. I think he is in love, too.


I have to rewatch that part again. At first I got the feeling he was withholding something from her - like what was really discussed with Cersei or some secret. It was nice how they left some doubt there.



TonyD79 said:


> Where do you get the idea that they told her WHY they were meeting. She seemed to not know at all. I truly think that either she contacted Euron after he left or she is bluffing.


Bluffing is entirely possible, but it did seem odd that he made a quick exit with so much to gain from Cersei. Whether she is bluffing or not, she needed to seem stronger to make Jaime think her plan would work. If Euron was really worried about the dead, he could have bailed later.



getbak said:


> Yes, everyone thought Lyanna was kidnapped. That's why Ned's father went to King's Landing to demand her release. After Ned's father and brother were killed by the Mad King, Robert (who was betrothed to Lyanna), Ned, and Jon Arryn (who raised Ned and Robert at the Eyrie) raised their Armies in rebellion against the Targaryens (Ned's marriage to Cat and Arryn's marriage to Lysa were arranged to bring the Tullys into the fight on their side as well).
> 
> If people would have known that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, Robert still would have been mad about her breaking their marriage pact, but it likely wouldn't have led to war.


I am trying to recall if it's been hinted that Tywin Lannister had a hand in the deception surrounding the supposed abduction. The Mad King did reject Cersei as a wife for Rhaeger and also took Jaime into the King's guard which meant he gave up his title.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> No one on his back this time.


I'm pretty sure an eagle doesn't fly any slower because there are 5 tics on his back!


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> At which point they'll be behind the WW army and won't have any means of getting a warning to Winterfell (unless they run all the way to Castle Black, which would have ravens).


No worries. Gendry to save the day.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

My stupid writing moment came at the meeting between everyone. Jon says Dany is his queen and he can't pledge to stay in the north. Everyone sighs and thinks "I wish you hadn't said that". OK Dany, if you wish he hadn't said that, why didn't you say: As your queen I am ordering you to stay in the north. Problem solved, episode could be 45 minutes long instead of 90 .


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> My stupid writing moment came at the meeting between everyone. Jon says Dany is his queen and he can't pledge to stay in the north. Everyone sighs and thinks "I wish you hadn't said that". OK Dany, if you wish he hadn't said that, why didn't you say: As your queen I am ordering you to stay in the north. Problem solved, episode could be 45 minutes long instead of 90 .


She doesn't want him to stay in the North; she wants him to SAY he's going to stay in the North but really come fight for her. If she ordered him to stay in the North,k he'd stay in the North, and she'd lose her biggest ally.

I'm not sure why everybody's so down on Jon for this. It's like being down on a puppy for being cute, or being down on sunshine for being warm. Jon's gonna be Jon; what else does anybody expect?!?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know much about Westeros geography but assuming that Jaime tells the Good Guys that Cersei is planning on crossing them, could they just let the undead army pass through the North, straight through to Kings Landing with only a few strategic skirmishes? Sorry for that run-on sentence.





Steveknj said:


> This would just be awesome





uncdrew said:


> Perhaps cheesesteak is onto something that smart humans can lead the march right to Kings Landing with a few attacks and placing some bait.


Smart humans? As in Cersei-empowering-the-faith-miliatant-to-hurt-her-enemies level of smart? Kings landing has 1 million residents...more than the entire north. Only a handful of them (10s of thousands) are equipped to put up a fight. The end result of that would be a HUGE increase in the size of the dead army. So how smart is that exactly?



uncdrew said:


> Makes me think that the White Walkers might not have a plan and are just walking.


Yes, as I said before, the WW have no real idea whats south of the wall. They haven't been down there in thousands of years, so they most likely have no idea what is where. They'll probably just wander. If they happen to bump into some roads, perhaps they might just start following them (or perhaps not...since they probably don't know what a road is either).



DevdogAZ said:


> Tyrion told Jaime that the real threat was from the Army of the Dead and asked Jaime to speak to Cersei about agreeing to a meeting where Dany & Co. could show proof of the threat from the north to get Cersei to agree to a temporary truce.


I'll have to go back and check, but I could swear the meeting was setup before they even came up with the idea of providing proof.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The Direwolves aren't really CGI enhanced, are they?


Yes they are. The directors have even talked about having to choose whether or not to include them because of budget. Ex: Here's why we didn't see Jon Snow's direwolf, Ghost, during 'Battle of the Bastards'


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She doesn't want him to stay in the North; she wants him to SAY he's going to stay in the North but really come fight for her. If she ordered him to stay in the North,k he'd stay in the North, and she'd lose her biggest ally.


Well, she can just later order him to ignore that previous order and return to join the battle. Even if he was like "but I gave my word to Cersei" she could just be like "ok, but if I win I'm gonna be pissed, and if she wins...I'm sure you can trust her to leave YOU alone, right?"


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

LordKronos said:


> Yes, as I said before, the WW have no real idea whats south of the wall. They haven't been down there in thousands of years, so they most likely have no idea what is where. They'll probably just wander. If they happen to bump into some roads, perhaps they might just start following them (or perhaps not...since they probably don't know what a road is either).


They did demonstrate some strategy when they came for Bran after they located him while he was watching them. They could have just kept marching but they wanted to stop him. And they also had ice spears with them to take down a dragon - first time we've seen one of those spears I think. And dragons had first come to Westeros about 300 years ago, well after the last WW were seen. So unless they carry spears just in case there are large flying objects or giants, it seems they could be following some kind of strategy or plan. Unfortunately, they don't talk much.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I figure the spears were to "convert" any large, living animals like polar bears, dragons, giants, etc.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

thefisch said:


> They did demonstrate some strategy when they came for Bran after they located him while he was watching them. They could have just kept marching but they wanted to stop him.


But it was Bran that came to them, and they only knew where he was because they marked him...the magic equivalent of a GPS homing beacon.



thefisch said:


> And they also had ice spears with them to take down a dragon - first time we've seen one of those spears I think.


No, this was discussed before. They were basically the same weapon we saw them use at Hardhome. I even posted some pics in last weeks thread. The javelin variant is probably used by the more important WW's who stay in the back of the battle, and I think someone suggested they probably used javelin's to take out the giants, too.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I'll have to go back and check, but I could swear the meeting was setup before they even came up with the idea of providing proof.


I think it was more like

- we need a truce so we can go fight the NK
- Cersei will never believe us. She will think it's a ruse so we can regroup
- we will have to find a way to prove to her that we're not lying...

On a rewatch now...

The hound is almost as tall as the Mountain, and I believe the mountain is standing on a step. They should've done a better job of making him hover over his little brother.

As someone noted, they absolutely went to great lengths to make sure Bronn and Cersei were never on the set together!

Absolutely love the almost double-take of "wh wh wh what?...what did you just say?" look on LittleFinger's face

We all know that Tyrion is in love with Dany. But are they trying to show us the beginning of him betraying her because he's love-sick?

For once, Jon knew something...It took him forever to figure out why Igrit took him to the hot springs cave but he didn't miss a beat once Dany said she'll ride the boat with him. And the love-making was just that: love-making with passionate kissing. This wasn't fraking, this was the beginning of deep and emotional love; which will pave the way for the Heir and the Queen to find a middle ground.

Also as someone else already noted, loved the absolute reverie of Qryburn as he watched the wight and him simply dying to play with it and discover what is was. I'm surprised he let them kill it.

Yep. It absolutely looked like Cersei asked the Mountain to kill Jaime. Why he didn't take Bronn with him as he left is a mystery to me. But maybe the small conversation between Tyrion and Bronn about paying him double was a setup for Bronn's eventual defection (or working as a spy for him)


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> They already attacked at Hardhome, which is on the east coast. So it made sense they would just stay along the east coast. Jon also suspected as much, which is why he sent Tormund and the Wildlings to man Eastwatch since it hadn't been manned in years.


But after Hardhome didn't they travel far North to go after Bran?

Maybe I'm mixing books and show, but Eastwatch was one of the only castles still manned.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

LordKronos said:


> But it was Bran that came to them, and they only knew where he was because they marked him...the magic equivalent of a GPS homing beacon.


Yes, I agree but then they appeared at the cave after they marked him. Hence the suggestion of strategy. Unless they don't mind detours - no human left behind.

Looks like I missed out on some good discussion last week about what the WW army is up to.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did anyone else think Jon just wordlessly showing up at Dany's door and inviting himself in was a little ridiculous? I mean, they've made googly eyes at each other a couple times, but there has been no reason for either of them to believe that the other was into it. And then for him to just knock on her door and expect she'll invite him into his bed was a little silly. I was really hoping that's not where the story was going, as the story has always been about those characters independent of any love story, so adding the love story out of thin air at the last minute just seems sloppy.


I didn't find that unusual at all. They had setup the attraction/tension pretty obviously over the episodes this season. In fact it was entirely expected. And Jon had just demonstrated his honor and commitment to her.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tomhorsley said:


> My stupid writing moment came at the meeting between everyone. Jon says Dany is his queen and he can't pledge to stay in the north. Everyone sighs and thinks "I wish you hadn't said that". OK Dany, if you wish he hadn't said that, why didn't you say: As your queen I am ordering you to stay in the north. Problem solved, episode could be 45 minutes long instead of 90 .


Cersei already said she wouldn't trust Dany's word. What Dany could have done was release Jon from his oath and then Jon could swear.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> I figure the spears were to "convert" any large, living animals like polar bears, dragons, giants, etc.


The conversion didn't happen until the night king reanimated him.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

So, Brienne and Tormund or Brienne and Jaime?


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did anyone else think Jon just wordlessly showing up at Dany's door and inviting himself in was a little ridiculous? I mean, they've made googly eyes at each other a couple times, but there has been no reason for either of them to believe that the other was into it. And then for him to just knock on her door and expect she'll invite him into his bed was a little silly. I was really hoping that's not where the story was going, as the story has always been about those characters independent of any love story, so adding the love story out of thin air at the last minute just seems sloppy.


They've set it up better than a lot of movies and tv shows do. They've also been setting it up all season.

A few episodes ago, we had Jon tell Davos that he thinks she has a good heart and Davos replied that he's noticed Jon admiring her "heart". Then, I don't remember who it was (Missandei/Tyrion?) said something similar to Dany about Jon.

We also saw Drogon accept Jon's touch a couple of episodes ago, which was unprecedented. Then, they had their hand-holding scene last week and him "bending the knee" (figuratively, at least, since he was lying in bed at the time).

When he said, "I can't serve two queens", it might not have been politically smart, but it definitely made her heart go pitter-pat.

Both last week and this week, she made it clear to him that she couldn't have any children. In a world where so much importance is placed on family legacy, that's basically her saying that them getting together would mean he'd have no kids to grow up to become the next King of the North. His response basically was, I'm willing to try if you are.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

tlc said:


> So, Brienne and Tormund or Brienne and Jaime?


Brienne and the Hound.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tlc said:


> So, Brienne and Tormund or Brienne and Jaime?


Classic love triangle.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Cersei already said she wouldn't trust Dany's word. What Dany could have done was release Jon from his oath and then Jon could swear.


But again, Dany didn't want Jon to sit out the war. She wanted Jon to lie about whether he would sit out the war. If he swore he would sit out the war, then she knows he would...sit out the war.


wprager said:


> Classic love triangle.


Tormund and Jaime?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Just rewatching know and I made the same comment to my son about the height differential between the two Cleganes. But the Mountain was not standing on the platform. He got back up on it after the Hound walked away.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But again, Dany didn't want Jon to sit out the war. She wanted Jon to lie about whether he would sit out the war. If he swore he would sit out the war, then she knows he would...sit out the war.
> 
> Tormund and Jaime?


That's not quite as classic, but sure, why not.


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Tormund and Jaime?


"We have to make do with what we've got."


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Stolen from reddit:


> I blame hot pie for this entire mess. If he had stayed in his kitchen he would of never of met Arya again and she would of gone to kings landing and killed Cersei. No Cersei means no trot up north to grab one of the dead which means no rescue mission, no dead dragon and the wall is still standing.
> 
> Fooking hot pie


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Or how two hobbits snuck into Mordor and saved Mankind.


OK, fine. Only because you lobbed that softball nice and high:










--Carlos "Sean Bean, too" V.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> Classic love triangle.


You say love triangle, I say Threesome, Baby!


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I may be more gullible than most, but didn't y'all have a slight fear that Littlefinger was successfully turning Sansa against Arya?


Yes.

I think we were seeing genuine Sansa reactions until at least through her final conversation with Arya during the previous episode. So I wasn't sure whether or not she had picked up on Arya's hints, and realized how Petyr was attempting to play her, or had instead fallen into his trap.

My interpretation of what went down between Arya and Sansa is that Arya realized that Petyr was up to no good. However, she couldn't go directly to Sansa about it for a few reasons. She wasn't sure who might overhear their conversation; she didn't know how much influence Petyr had over Sansa; and she wasn't sure how good Sansa would be at giving seemingly-genuine responses.

The middle reason was probably Arya's biggest concern. If she approached Sansa directly, then Sansa might not have believed her, and confided in Petyr. Or, potentially even worse, Sansa might have believed her, and confronted Petyr about it. Either case would have ended up with Petyr backing off, covering his tracks, and switching to a different plan.

Could Arya have simply killed him? Yes, but she respected her sister, and wanted her to make that decision. She needed there to be no doubt in Sansa's mind about whose side Petyr was on.

The best way to do that was to make him think he was winning so he would become bolder, and continue to push forward with his attempted manipulation.

So she put herself out as manipulation bait, leading Petyr to plant the message for her to find. Then she staged the first argument with Sansa, out in public, reacting to the message she found in the way she thought Petyr would expect.

As she intended, Petyr took her bait, and stepped in to "console" Sansa, becoming increasingly open about pushing her to seize power. He became comfortable enough that he pretended not to know where Arya had found the message even though Sansa talking to the wrong people could have easily exposed that lie.

The next meeting we see between Arya and Sansa is in private, and that is when she drops some hints that she hopes Sansa will pick up on. As wedgecon pointed out in the previous episode's thread, she was playing the Game of Faces with Sansa.

Arya was still hedging her bets about where Sansa was in her relationship with Petyr, so she didn't feel comfortable being direct with her. But she did describe the Game of Faces to Sansa, and then flipped things around to put herself in the position of the one who was trying to make lies sound like the truth.

She reminded Sansa, as she had before their first argument, that she didn't want to be a Lady. But then she threatened Sansa with the knife, pretending to wonder what it would be like to kill her, and take her place. However, she ended that by turning the knife around, and handing it to Sansa. This was Arya's way of telling her, "No matter how threatening I might seem, you know I would never harm you nor even want to take your place." It was also her way of telling her, "Now it's your turn to play The Game."

Arya hoped that Sansa would see the lies that Petyr was making to sound like the truth, and at the same time plant some of her own.

I'm unclear whether Sansa had put the pieces together before her final private conversation with Petyr or after. I'd like to think that at that point she was playing The Game, luring Petyr into a false sense of security while getting him to expose his ultimate goal. She might have also been giving him once final chance to turn around before she decided to pass judgment.

But it's also possible it wasn't until after that conversation, and she was reflecting on everything that had happpened, that she had the "Wait a minute..." moment.

In any case, Sansa's relationship with her sister led her to realize something that Petyr hadn't anticipated. From his perspective, there was only one struggle. As he told Varys, "Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is." His manipulation of Sansa relied on Arya being jealous of her position, and Sansa being willing to do anything to defend it. But Sansa had grown up with the real Arya, and knew where her heart truly lied. And as much as Arya had changed, she knew deep down that the core of her hadn't. Beyond that, while a younger Sansa might not have cared as much about her family, including her sister specifically, the Sansa who had been separated from her family for so long would rather have lost her position than her sister.

Petyr's philosophy might have been right enough in the royal court of King's Landing to allow him to manipulate those around him into giving him more power. But he underestimated the familial bond of the Starks. And that was his ultimate undoing.

The next time we saw Arya, she had her knife back. I wonder if Sansa returned the knife as a sign that she had finally seen the truth.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think we were seeing genuine Sansa reactions until at least through her final conversation with Arya during the previous episode. So I wasn't sure whether or not she had picked up on Arya's hints, and realized how Petyr was attempting to play her, or had instead fallen into his trap.
> 
> ...


Great post. I was surprised no one had mentioned the dagger - the last time we saw it, Arya handed it to Sansa, and when Arya stepped into the great hall, she had it back.
Arya got Sansa to where she could figure Petyr out for herself.

Petyr sure seemed to favor Tyrion as his scapegoat - first with the dagger, then the Purple Wedding.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Bastardy


Well, not that the internet should be the ultimate arbiter of message board debates, but that works for me. 

If that article is correct, then Jon Snow is a perfectly sensible moniker for Ned to use for the boy.
Jon Sand, on the other hand, makes no sense at all - his parents weren't Dornish, and he wasn't raised there.

It was just sloppy writing. It allowed the Three Eyed Raven to tee up Sam for the story about the secret wedding.
They could have accomplished the same thing by Bran/3ER saying, "He's not my father's bastard, he's Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard" - and it wouldn't have violated the GoT "rules."


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

tomhorsley said:


> My stupid writing moment came at the meeting between everyone. Jon says Dany is his queen and he can't pledge to stay in the north. Everyone sighs and thinks "I wish you hadn't said that". OK Dany, if you wish he hadn't said that, why didn't you say: As your queen I am ordering you to stay in the north. Problem solved, episode could be 45 minutes long instead of 90 .


My impression was that Cersei wanted more than just a standard truce; she wanted Jon to hold off on making any alliances in what she still saw as a three-way war among monarchs. She was assuming that Jon was another fiercely independent King in the North, with ambitions of ruling at least his own kingdom, if not all seven.

Of course she had to know that Jon was sympathetic to Dany's side, given the circumstances of the meeting. But she hoped that he was flexible and personally ambitious enough that she might at least have a chance of persuading him to switch sides later on.



wprager said:


> Just rewatching know and I made the Dave comment to my son about the height differential between the two Cleganes. But the Mountain was not standing on the platform. He got back up on it after the Hound walked away.


Their relative height seemed inconsistent as well; in the wide shots the Mountain was barely taller than the Hound, yet in the over-shoulder shots he seemed to be towering over him. I think they just made a mistake in framing the wide shots, and weren't able to go back and fix it later.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Isn't it ironic that the ultimate battle for Westeros will be waged primarily by armies from outside the 7 Kingdoms?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Where do you get the idea that they told her WHY they were meeting. She seemed to not know at all. I truly think that either she contacted Euron after he left or she is bluffing.


In episode 5, during the scene when Cersei revealed she knew about Jaime's meeting with Tyrion, Jaime told her why they wanted to meet.



DevdogAZ said:


> Agreed. I have a good friend who doesn't read the books or message boards, and after the Tower of Joy scene in S6, I had to explain the whole R+L=J thing to him. Then last night, I had to explain it all over again because he still wasn't clear what it all meant.


I wonder if some people were confused precisely because they were following just enough.

In other words, someone completely missing all hints might have reacted to the scene with, "Woah! Jon is a Targaryen and the true heir to the Iron Throne!" But someone who recognized Jon's true lineage, but didn't think about the legalities of succession might have reacted with, "Wait? Didn't we already know that from last season?"



thefisch said:


> Unfortunately, they don't talk much.


Listening to talkers makes the Night King thirsty.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> My impression was that Cersei wanted more than just a standard truce; she wanted Jon to hold off on making any alliances in what she still saw as a three-way war among monarchs. She was assuming that Jon was another fiercely independent King in the North, with ambitions of ruling at least his own kingdom, if not all seven.
> 
> Of course she had to know that Jon was sympathetic to Dany's side, given the circumstances of the meeting. But she hoped that he was flexible and personally ambitious enough that she might at least have a chance of persuading him to switch sides later on.


I thought it was very clear that she was requiring him to sit out the war between Cersei and Dany that would follow the war between the living and the dead. And while his allies wanted him to lie and say he was willing to do this, he refused to (and I really don't think anybody would have believed him if he had!).


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wonder if some people were confused precisely because they were following just enough.
> 
> In other words, someone completely missing all hints might have reacted to the scene with, "Woah! Jon is a Targaryen and the true heir to the Iron Throne!" But someone who recognized Jon's true lineage, but didn't think about the legalities of succession might have reacted with, "Wait? Didn't we already know that from last season?"


You know what - I was wrong about this. I don't think a "casual" viewer would necessarily know about R+L=J. Come to think of it, I don't believe they ever said on the show who Jon's father was until that scene. We knew his mother was Lyanna, and they dropped plenty of hints. It was a pretty big reveal after all.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, over a period of years they slipped in all the pieces of the puzzle. But I think it took a pretty dedicated viewer (or internet reader!) to put them all together. When the scenes of Jon's birth happened, I suspect most people didn't connect it with the knowledge from Season 1 that Ned's sister had been "abducted" and "raped" by Rhaegar.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> We all know that Tyrion is in love with Dany. But are they trying to show us the beginning of him betraying her because he's love-sick?


We all know? I don't know or believe that he is. I'm not sure anything we've seen would lead us to think he's in love with her, he just wants a better world and believes she's the one to make it happen. And the fact that she's never treated him like a dwarf as 90% of the rest of Westeros has.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, he's very devoted to her, but I've never seen any indication that it's romantic.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Yeah, I agree; I don't think we've been given any reason to think Tyrion is in love with Dany.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Petyr sure seemed to favor Tyrion as his scapegoat - first with the dagger, then the Purple Wedding.


Somehow I don't recall ever hearing the name "Purple Wedding" before.



photoshopgrl said:


> We all know? I don't know or believe that he is. I'm not sure anything we've seen would lead us to think he's in love with her, he just wants a better world and believes she's the one to make it happen.


You know, all along that's what I've thought too. But last week, something about their interaction when she said Jon was "too small" and then the way she sort of consoled him like he had been offended/hurt made me wonder about it.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Somehow I don't recall ever hearing the name "Purple Wedding" before.


Is that what happens when blue-bloods have a Red Wedding?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> You know, all along that's what I've thought too. But last week, something about their interaction when she said Jon was "too small" and then the way she sort of consoled him like he had been offended/hurt made me wonder about it.


I think she just wanted to make sure he wasn't taking the "small" comment personally in a general sense. I still just don't see him being in love but I am really curious what the deal was on the boat at the end with him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> We all know? I don't know or believe that he is. I'm not sure anything we've seen would lead us to think he's in love with her, he just wants a better world and believes she's the one to make it happen. And the fact that she's never treated him like a dwarf as 90% of the rest of Westeros has.


It's a male thing...you wouldn't understand how a guy would love a girl who is completely oblivious to him as anything but a friend 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, he's very devoted to her, but I've never seen any indication that it's romantic.


what's YOUR excuse? 

Tyrion was clearly exhibiting the same emotions that we've seen from Jorah throughout the years, especially as a rival for Dany's affection surfaced. Jorah with the Second Sons' guy (forget his name) and then with Jon...and Tyrion's increasing distress over Dany's infatuation with Jon...his comments by the fire as Dany fretted over Jon being a stupid male hero and putting himself in danger were a clear indication of how he felt (at least, that is how I saw them). Finally, he and Jorah's reaction as Dany announced that she will sail with Jon...

Tyrion wasn't just worried about someone having Dany's ear. He acted like a guy who "knew" she would never consider him that way but then is crushed when he actually sees that he is correct (the death of a cynic and a realist's hope; hope that he knew was stupid).


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Somehow I don't recall ever hearing the name "Purple Wedding" before.


Sorry - Joffrey's murder at his wedding reception.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Tyrion's the Hand of the Queen, and he didn't say a word at that meeting about the journey North. All of the advice came from Jorah and Jon (er, Aegon) - two of the four men Tyrion listed as having fallen in love with her.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> It's a male thing...you wouldn't understand how a guy would love a girl who is completely oblivious to him as anything but a friend


Well maybe I haven't seen it from a male perspective but I have had it happen to me several times over my life so I like to think I could spot it happening at this point, especially as a third party observer. Maybe not but for now, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. 

(PS I don't see him and Jorah acting at all similar. Jorah I knew immediately he was in love way before the show gave us solid clues)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think it was as much of a surprise to Tyrion as it was to us as viewers. But I also think they laid the clues that I mentioned carefully.

Tyrion reacted with some hostility and was defensive at every mention of Jon and every furtive glance or nod between them. He saw what was happening and didn't like it, but didn't know why he didn't like it. Then when he saw him at her door and going in, it hit him like an 18-wheeler.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But again, Dany didn't want Jon to sit out the war. She wanted Jon to lie about whether he would sit out the war. If he swore he would sit out the war, then she knows he would...sit out the war.


Meanwhile, she lost any help from Cersei she would've gotten. If Cersei double crossed her on the fight in the north, then Jon's pledge to sit out becomes null and void. Dany has two dragons, the Unsullied and the Dothraki. Jon's army isn't going to tilt the fray. Cripes, all Dany has to do is take out Cersei and the war is over.

Dany really is not much of a strategist, is she?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Well, not that the internet should be the ultimate arbiter of message board debates, but that works for me.
> 
> If that article is correct, then Jon Snow is a perfectly sensible moniker for Ned to use for the boy.
> Jon Sand, on the other hand, makes no sense at all - his parents weren't Dornish, and he wasn't raised there.
> ...


Is it sloppy writing if Bran just got the rules wrong? Come on. This is nitpicking at its worst. Maybe Samwell should have corrected his bastard naming understanding first THEN told him he wasn't a bastard.

Why would anyone assume that every character is infallible and never just makes a mistake?

Do you really think that your lines are better or less sloppy?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I think it was as much of a surprise to Tyrion as it was to us as viewers. But I also think they laid the clues that I mentioned carefully.
> 
> Tyrion reacted with some hostility and was defensive at every mention of Jon and every furtive glance or nod between them. He saw what was happening and didn't like it, but didn't know why he didn't like it. Then when he saw him at her door and going in, it hit him like an 18-wheeler.


You may be right but it is equally possible at this point that he was concerned about how such a bedroom alliance would affect the political alliances.

I have seen nothing that says Tyrion is in love with Dany yet we have seen it with others consistently. The "sudden realization" theory would not be in character with Tyrion who is always analyzing his and others motives. It would be a twist that does not fit the story.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well maybe I haven't seen it from a male perspective...


I think Anubys is right. It IS a male thing.

Assuming that any relationship between a man and a woman must be romantic and/or sexual, that is.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MacThor said:


> They could have accomplished the same thing by Bran/3ER saying, "He's not my father's bastard, he's Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard" - and it wouldn't have violated the GoT "rules."


Or the slightly snappier version: "He's not my father's bastard, he's my aunt's". But yes, that would have avoided the "Sands" and still laid up the "no, they were secretly married" revelation.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cbrrider said:


> No worries. Gendry to save the day.


They need to have the Gendry Triathalon:

1. Row boating
2. Distance snow running
3. Hammer toss


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Sorry - Joffrey's murder at his wedding reception.


I'm not sure why _this_ was the post that triggered this thought, but I hope we get a scene next season where Tyrion and Sansa end up in the same room. That could be an interesting conversation. Are they technically still married?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Smart humans? As in Cersei-empowering-the-faith-miliatant-to-hurt-her-enemies level of smart? Kings landing has 1 million residents...more than the entire north. Only a handful of them (10s of thousands) are equipped to put up a fight. The end result of that would be a HUGE increase in the size of the dead army. So how smart is that exactly?


Team DanJon knows something Team Cersei doesn't know. Kill a White Walker and everybody he turned "dies". If they could somehow evacuate strategic parts of the North and funnel the walking dead army towards Kings Landing and let them have their way with Team Cercei, killing some White Walkers afterwards would greatly reduce the number of Team Cersei wights they'd gained. Jon and Sam seem to go through White Walkers like a knife through butter. Probably not the greatest plan in the world but it would be revenge for Cersei double crossing them. (I know she only crossed them but double cross sounds more treacherous.) As to what happens next, that's why I'm not a general.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Smart humans? As in Cersei-empowering-the-faith-miliatant-to-hurt-her-enemies level of smart? Kings landing has 1 million residents...more than the entire north. Only a handful of them (10s of thousands) are equipped to put up a fight. The end result of that would be a HUGE increase in the size of the dead army. So how smart is that exactly?


If the White Walkers are coming South, diverting them to your enemy is smarter than just sitting there and letting them kill you first.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think Anubys is right. It IS a male thing.
> 
> Assuming that any relationship between a man and a woman must be romantic and/or sexual, that is.


Yeah, there was a movie about this very thing a while ago - _When Jon Met Dany._



Jonathan_S said:


> I'm not sure why _this_ was the post that triggered this thought, but I hope we get a scene next season where Tyrion and Sansa end up in the same room. That could be an interesting conversation. Are they technically still married?


There was discussion about this prior to the Bolton wedding that the marriage hadn't been consummated so was null and void. And Tyrion and Jon talked about the lack of a consummation as they were walking up the stairs at Dragonstone.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tlc said:


> So, Brienne and Tormund or Brienne and Jaime?


Does she want a mate? She seems to fly solo. If she wanted a partner, would it be a man or woman? Do we know much about her preferences?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Damn you Hot Pie!!!!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> You may be right but it is equally possible at this point that he was concerned about how such a bedroom alliance would affect the political alliances.
> 
> I have seen nothing that says Tyrion is in love with Dany yet we have seen it with others consistently. The "sudden realization" theory would not be in character with Tyrion who is always analyzing his and others motives. It would be a twist that does not fit the story.


I am not buying the "Tyrion is in love with Dany" argument. IMHO, there has been nothing on the show that hints to that. (Glances and eye looks can be taken multiple ways.) My interpretation of that scene falls under two scenarios:

1) Tyrion has realized that he is being replaced as Dany's main consul and is not happy about. He probably also doesn't believe Jon would be a great "Right-Hand man" to Dany. 
2) Tyrion made a deal with Cersei and knows that he has betrayed the one person in his life who has treated him with respect and honor.

Personally, I am going with option 2. The cut from Tyrion and Cersei negotiating in private to them returning to the Dragon Pit was too abrupt. There is a 2nd half to that scene we were not privy too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> If the White Walkers are coming South, diverting them to your enemy is smarter than just sitting there and letting them kill you first.


Killing them is better still. And gives you seven kingdoms to rule after it's all over, as opposed to seven former kingdoms filled with corpses.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Killing them is better still. And gives you seven kingdoms to rule after it's all over, as opposed to seven former kingdoms filled with corpses.


Agreed.

I'm just not sure "killing them" is a viable strategy yet.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

And has no one mentioned Jon Snow's butt. :up:


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Does she want a mate? She seems to fly solo. If she wanted a partner, would it be a man or woman? Do we know much about her preferences?


We know she loved Renly. We haven't seen evidence that she has preferences to preclude that, unless we're just judging by the fact that she's a strong knight in a culture where women aren't typically that way.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tlc said:


> So, Brienne and Tormund or Brienne and Jaime?


I would prefer her with Tormund but I think she would definitely prefer Jaime.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> And has no one mentioned Jon Snow's butt. :up:


It was nice, butt I was too busy cringing over the incest to really want to keep watching to see some arse.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> It was nice, butt I was too busy cringing over the incest to really want to keep watching to see some arse.


Jon's got aunts in his pants.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Dany wouldn't send the WWs to KL. That was the whole point of the reason Dany hasn't attacked KL. She could and take it over easily but she would kill a huge percentage of the population who would be destined to become her subjects. Not a good way to win friends.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Jon's got aunts in his pants.





Spoiler


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

I don't understand how the first scene of the episode connects to the rest. In the first scene the unsullied are outside a castle (Highgarden?), Jamie and Bronn readying for battle (the aforementioned c*ck discussion), and the Dothraki horde come in on the horses much to Jamie and Bronn's dismay.

Second scene: Ship with Tyriorn, Dany, Jon, Hound, etc approaching King's Landing

Third scene: Cersei talking with Qyburn and Jamie.

What happened to the battle?? Is that a prologue type of thing set in the future to be shown again for the second half of season 7? Color me confused.

tta


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Jon's got aunts in his pants.


This joke doesn't work in New England (or Westeros.)


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

tivotvaddict said:


> I don't understand how the first scene of the episode connects to the rest. In the first scene the unsullied are outside a castle (Highgarden?), Jamie and Bronn readying for battle (the aforementioned c*ck discussion), and the Dothraki horde come in on the horses much to Jamie and Bronn's dismay.
> 
> Second scene: Ship with Tyriorn, Dany, Jon, Hound, etc approaching King's Landing
> 
> ...


There was no battle. The Unsullied and Dothraki were gathering outside Kings Landing.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Tyrion is not in love with Dany!

'Game of Thrones' Finale Director: No 'Romantic Jealousy' in Tyrion's Reaction to Jon and Dany's Boat Sex


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Killing them is better still. And gives you seven kingdoms to rule after it's all over, as opposed to seven former kingdoms filled with corpses.


And then you've got to kill all the damn corpses.

Can a white walker raise any corpse even if they weren't nearby when they died? And for how long after death?
It might be even more dangerous that we realize to let them into the South where people aren't routinely burned after death. Having everybody who died in even just the last few years claw their way out of every graveyard a white walker passed by would swell their army's ranks in very alarming ways...


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

An extremely wordy explanation: Ask the Maester: Why Is Jon the Heir to the Iron Throne?

Towards the bottom of that article is a pretty good explanation why everybody can't just mosey over into Essos.

Book readers probably know this stuff.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Tyrion is not in love with Dany!
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' Finale Director: No 'Romantic Jealousy' in Tyrion's Reaction to Jon and Dany's Boat Sex


 this is not me gloating


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JoeyJoJo said:


> There was no battle. The Unsullied and Dothraki were gathering outside Kings Landing.


Which was Dany's way of putting pressure on Cersei to agree to the proposed truce.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

JoeyJoJo said:


> There was no battle. The Unsullied and Dothraki were gathering outside Kings Landing.


ohhhh! ::Face palm:: In case the truce meeting went wrong..... D'oh! thanks 

tta


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JoeyJoJo said:


> There was no battle. The Unsullied and Dothraki were gathering outside Kings Landing.


Yep. In case things go sour.

So Bronn gets River Run. That right? Or was he being silly and just picking his own Castle since one isn't being picked for him?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Yeah, that's why Cersai was telling Jaime that she knows Dany has lost a dragon. Dany was displaying all her might at Kings Landing to help broker the peace.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> this is not me gloating


you're so silly. Of course I'm right and the director is wrong. How is THAT not clear to you?!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> this is not me gloating


Well don't not gloat too much. The directors don't always know much more than we do. Just read through that article and see how much he's clearly speculating about stuff he's not sure about.

And don't forget...it was a director (though not the same one as this article) who told us that Jamie didn't rape Cersei because it was "consensual by the end"


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Why you gotta spoil my victory here?


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Man, the comments on this are at 16 pages already! One thing I picked up on is that Bran can go and look at what he wants to see: he has control over his visions. I used to be under the impression that they just came to him.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I guess Tyrion's look was more of concern about how this will impact the Game of Thrones than jealousy of Jon.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Man, the comments on this are at 16 pages already! One thing I picked up on is that Bran can go and look at what he wants to see: he has control over his visions. I used to be under the impression that they just came to him.


He definately has control. It's interesting to know that he isn't omniscient though. Until he focused on finding that memory, he didn't know about it. He had access to it but had to look for it to discover it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> this is not me gloating


 and this is you gloating.

Completely different, totes obvs!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> He definately has control. It's interesting to know that he isn't omniscient though. Until he focused on finding that memory, he didn't know about it. He had access to it but had to look for it to discover it.


Which makes it interesting that he knew the "chaos is a ladder" line from a random conversation between Littlefinger and Varys. I wonder why he chose to view that moment.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Which makes it interesting that he knew the "chaos is a ladder" line from a random conversation between Littlefinger and Varys. I wonder why he chose to view that moment.


I think he's been progressing in his ability to control his Three Eyed Raven powers.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm hoping as he grows he can become the 4-eyed raven.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I'm hoping as he grows he can become the 4-eyed raven.


Do they have optometrists in Westeros?


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do they have optometrists in Westeros?


At the Citadel! We saw at least one Maester using glasses


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

photoshopgrl said:


> It was nice, butt I was too busy cringing over the incest to really want to keep watching to see some arse.


Better hope there is not a Targaryen spinoff - it would be full of incest. Gotta to keep the bloodline pure. At least they are not twins!



BeanMeScot said:


> Dany wouldn't send the WWs to KL. That was the whole point of the reason Dany hasn't attacked KL. She could and take it over easily but she would kill a huge percentage of the population who would be destined to become her subjects. Not a good way to win friends.


I agree, plus all this talk of sending or controlling the path of the WW and undead army  if the wall didn't work, what else will.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Jon's got aunts in his pants.


And Dany probably had some Aegon her face.

--Carlos V.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> He definately has control. It's interesting to know that he isn't omniscient though. Until he focused on finding that memory, he didn't know about it. He had access to it but had to look for it to discover it.


I tend to think of that as being 'weakly omniscient'. You can know anything you think to investigate but you're limited by time, imagination, and interest in what you'll actually know.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> I tend to think of that as being 'weakly omniscient'. You can know anything you think to investigate but you're limited by time, imagination, and interest in what you'll actually know.


And I suspect he scrutinized the time period with his father as the Hand quite extensively so he would know who the enemies are and all the details of the multitude of conspiracies at that time...


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)




----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> d I suspect he scrutinized the time period with his father as the Hand quite extensively so he would know who the enemies are and all the details of the multitude of conspiracies at that time


Correct, but the "chaos is a ladder" conversation came from season 3. I skimmed through the episode trying to see what happened immediately before that scene (thinking that he might have gone back to see something he was interested in and then just stuck around), but that looks to be Littlefingers' and Varys' only scene in that episode so who knows what was going on right before that. There doesn't appear to be anything eventful, and I doubt he has the time to see every random thing every person does.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> I guess Tyrion's look was more of concern about how this will impact the Game of Thrones than jealousy of Jon.


Or perhaps he's jealous of Daenerys.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

thefisch said:


> I would think LF could gain access to Cercei given the deference he has shown her in the past and the role he played in bringing her family to power.


Assuming she didn't first hear about his death... which happened in public...


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Or perhaps he's jealous of Daenerys.


 Tyrion has never even been slightly gay.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Tyrion has never even been slightly gay.


I've never been even slightly gay but when I saw Jon Snow's/Sand's/Aegon Targaryen's butt I wavered.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BeanMeScot said:


> Tyrion has never even been slightly gay.


Quite the opposite


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

TampaThunder said:


> I've never been even slightly gay but when I saw Jon Snow's/Sand's/Aegon Targaryen's butt I wavered.






photoshopgrl said:


> Quite the opposite


Exactly


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

She was lying on the Sand, rolled over, and was covered with a blanket of Snow.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MacThor said:


> She was lying on the Sand, rolled over, and was covered with a blanket of Snow.


Well, no. The whole point was she was lying on the Targaryen, rolled over, and was covered with a blanket of Targaryen.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Aiden Gillen talks about _that scene_ on GOT.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

wmcbrine said:


> Assuming she didn't first hear about his death... which happened in public...


That would make a chilling twist if Cercei lets her get close as LF only to spoil the trap.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> And in yet another amalgamation of plot threads from the books, Jon's half brother, the real Aegon Targaryen, is alive and besieging the Baratheon stronghold of Storm's End. Jon's real name in the books is still unknown. Not that it matters, but it just made me wonder why they gave him that particular name when they could have given him any other Targaryen first name. In any case, I suspect his reaction when he finds out will be, "Foke that. I'm Jon Snow."


I'm not entirely sure, but I think the original Aegon was already dead (supposedly in the books, for realsies on the show) when Jon was born...it's possible Lyanna recycled the name in tribute?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

thefisch said:


> I agree, plus all this talk of sending or controlling the path of the WW and undead army  if the wall didn't work, what else will.


Man, y'all ever watch movies or TV?

You egg them on, get them to follow you. Then you trap them via natural resources. You lead them to a cliff and flood the return path Or you lead them into a pit or something. Or you lead them to a narrow passage and slip through.

Get some wild fire and some dragons and torch the bejeebus out of them once they're stuck.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

uncdrew said:


> Man, y'all ever watch movies or TV?
> 
> You egg them on, get them to follow you. Then you trap them via natural resources. You lead them to a cliff and flood the return path Or you lead them into a pit or something. Or you lead them to a narrow passage and slip through.
> 
> Get some wild fire and some dragons and torch the bejeebus out of them once they're stuck.


That comment was in response to sending the undead army to KL, not about battle strategy. While it would be interesting to see someone outsmart them in battle (that will come I expect), but so far it seems like one of those 'we can only beat them if we work together' moments. Or maybe Egon will appear and tell them it's alright to cross the streams.


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> I was surprised no one had mentioned the dagger - the last time we saw it, Arya handed it to Sansa, and when Arya stepped into the great hall, she had it back.


She (Sansa) probably just left the dagger on the table. It was Arya's room after all.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Aiden Gillen talks about _that scene_ on GOT.


In light of a conversation we had in one of the previous threads about the logistics of filming, I found this quote interesting:


> *When did you find out that your character was going to die?*
> It was about a month before we started shooting this season. Just before the scripts were released. It was in the usual way. They give you a call when you don't usually get a call. The two of them were there [D.B. Weiss and David Benioff]. Same story for everybody else. *It was one of the earlier scenes that we shot.* Having died earlier on - it sounds so strange to say it that way - it kind of freed you up a bit.


He said Baelish's death scene was one of the earlier ones shot for this season. Jeremy Podeswa directed Episodes 1 and 7 of this season. So it seems that Podeswa filmed his Ep 1 and Ep 7 Winterfell scenes together, which is why Baelish's death scene was probably shot long before much of his other scenes from episodes 2-6 of this season.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

JYoung said:


> Aiden Gillen talks about _that scene_ on GOT.


I enjoyed this and I agree he definitely showed real vulnerable emotion. Made me sad. And yes, he was a villain and yes he was always going to die. But I quite enjoyed his devious sneaky villainy. There are villains you root for their death like Joffrey, Ramsay, Cercei but I never did for Petyr. He was so clever up until this season. I guess you can say he did this to himself but I think it was just not great writing on his character. I feel he wouldn't have underestimated these people after seeing Bran could see things and hearing Arya was a faceless man. (shrug)


> *Were those crocodile tears or real tears for him?*
> I don't think Baelish does crocodile tears. I don't think Baelish likes to shed tears, certainly not in front of people. Throughout the seasons, I've tried to show something that we haven't seen before in successive seasons &#8230; warmth or a bit more of a human side or coldness. But one thing we haven't seen is real vulnerability or weakness. If we saw some emotion, I don't really think it was sentimental. I think it was involuntary: Your time is up.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I loved the part when he asks Sansa to talk to her alone. He thinks he can talk his way out of any predicament. It was so absolutely within character to make that request. Other than the "who? what? where?" shock at the beginning, that was my favorite part of the scene.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> He definately has control. It's interesting to know that he isn't omniscient though. Until he focused on finding that memory, he didn't know about it. He had access to it but had to look for it to discover it.


That's how Google works. You have to have some idea of what you want to see. Otherwise, it is just a jumble of stuff.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, no. The whole point was she was lying on the Targaryen, rolled over, and was covered with a blanket of Targaryen.


Eeewwww.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> That's how Google works. You have to have some idea of what you want to see. Otherwise, it is just a jumble of stuff.


And that explains it. Sometimes you google, other times you just browse wikipedia and go where it takes you.

"I want to learn more about dad"...opens wikipedia to Eddard Stark...scrolls to "Death" section..."hmmm, Petyr Baelish"...clicks link...scrolls to memorable quotes section..."chaos is a ladder"


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Crazy theory time:

The first WW was somehow created by Bran(warging, green-seeing, whatever) and now all the WW and their wights can be killed by simply killing Bran. As Bran is one of the least liked characters, it's a win-win.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> Why was Tyrion sulking outside the room with Dany and Jon? He wouldn't be surprised. I didn't get the impression he would be jealous. Confusing.


Maybe he at least sub-consciously knows Jon's true parentage and is actually thrilled since he knows how well incestuous relationships work.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

LordKronos said:


> And that explains it. Sometimes you google, other times you just browse wikipedia and go where it takes you.
> 
> "I want to learn more about dad"...opens wikipedia to Eddard Stark...scrolls to "Death" section..."hmmm, Petyr Baelish"...clicks link...scrolls to memorable quotes section..."chaos is a ladder"


Nowadays they could have just checked LF's social media feeds. Surprised there isn't more fake news on the show. And why don't ravens deliver spam or junk mail.



wprager said:


> Crazy theory time:
> 
> The first WW was somehow created by Bran(warging, green-seeing, whatever) and now all the WW and their wights can be killed by simply killing Bran. As Bran is one of the least liked characters, it's a win-win.


 Sounds more like a wish than a theory. It seems that Bran will be very important in the final season, making him more of a target anyway.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Totally off topic. We probably will never see Cersei give birth (either she dies, loses the baby, was never pregnant in the first place or the whole world will end before then) but if we did, how great would it be if she gave birth to a dwarf? As mean as she's been to Tyrion all his life, a bit of karma like that would make me so happy.  Yes, I'm a bad person.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> That's how Google works. You have to have some idea of what you want to see. Otherwise, it is just a jumble of stuff.


Yeah, and once he accidentally happened on some pR0n, he probably lost days down that rabbit hole...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> Yeah, and once he accidentally happened on some pR0n, he probably lost days down that rabbit hole...


"Accidentally."


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Totally off topic. We probably will never see Cersei give birth (either she dies, loses the baby, was never pregnant in the first place or the whole world will end before then) but if we did, how great would it be if she gave birth to a dwarf? As mean as she's been to Tyrion all his life, a bit of karma like that would make me so happy.  Yes, I'm a bad person.


Someone (I think on facebook) was saying that true karma would actually be Cersei dying from complications after birthing a dwarf (like her mother did).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "Accidentally."


I still love the joke in Ted 2 "Did you mean Black C..."


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "Accidentally."


Only the first time. He didn't understand his power yet.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

The witch already told Cersie she was only having three kids. So, whatever is going we already know there will be no baby. Everything else in the prophesy was true. Here is hoping that what was left out from the books will also come true...


Spoiler: spoiler



She is going to die by being strangled by her little brother (Jamie or Tyrion).


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I read the books, but there's so many details I've forgotten.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> I read the books, but there's so many details I've forgotten.


I thought they were well beyond what has been published.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wprager said:


> Crazy theory time: The first WW was somehow created by Bran(warging, green-seeing, whatever)


Yes, that is crazy, as we already saw how the first WW was created (and why).



thefisch said:


> Nowadays they could have just checked LF's social media feeds. Surprised there isn't more fake news on the show. And why don't ravens deliver spam or junk mail.


Fake news? Like "Lyanna was kidnapped", "Ned tried to steal the throne", or "Tyrion killed Joffrey"? And as far as raven spam and junk mail...didn't you see the "winter is here" junk mail flock released from Old Town, or Jon's "you've been chosen for an all expense paid trip to help me retake winterfell" spam?



Jonathan_S said:


> Someone (I think on facebook) was saying that true karma would actually be Cersei dying from complications after birthing a dwarf (like her mother did).


No, that was me (though I'm sure someone on facebook somewhere probably said it too)
Game of Thrones 8/27/17 "The Dragon and the Wolf"


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

lpwcomp said:


> I thought they were well beyond what has been published.


Generally, yes. Although several things happened in the book that are yet to happen. And many side events that will probably never happen in the show. And almost uncountably many minor differences.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> The witch already told Cersie she was only having three kids. So, whatever is going we already know there will be no baby. Everything else in the prophesy was true.


I already pointed out the prophesy as proof a few weeks back, but someone else remembered what I had forgot...she had a 4th kid with Robert (I believe this was before Joffrey). Cersei told Catelyn about it in season 1 episode 2, while Bran was in his coma.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

LordKronos said:


> Fake news? Like "Lyanna was kidnapped", "Ned tried to steal the throne", or "Tyrion killed Joffrey"? And as far as raven spam and junk mail...didn't you see the "winter is here" junk mail flock released from Old Town, or Jon's "you've been chosen for an all expense paid trip to help me retake winterfell" spam?


We need more of it!


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> I thought they were well beyond what has been published.


Yes, they are. But being reminded of the prophecy in the spoiler makes me think of all the detail from the books that I've forgotten. There's so much that didn't make the show.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> No, that was me (though I'm sure someone on facebook somewhere probably said it too)
> Game of Thrones 8/27/17 "The Dragon and the Wolf"


Oops! GMTA? I've skipped around this thread quite a bit and have left several pages unread.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Game of Thrones: Cut Scene Would've Explained Finale's Littlefinger Twist


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not entirely sure, but I think the original Aegon was already dead (supposedly in the books, for realsies on the show) when Jon was born...it's possible Lyanna recycled the name in tribute?


In the books the real Aegon allegedly was saved by Varys and raised by Jon Connington. The character who believes he is Aegon was last seen besieging Storm's End.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Game of Thrones: Cut Scene Would've Explained Finale's Littlefinger Twist


That would have helped explain what happened, but it also would have diminished the dramatic tension as Arya walked into the Great Hall and we all thought Sansa was going to sentence her to die. Knowing that Sansa had already talked to Bran would have meant Sansa knew the truth and there was nothing to worry about.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> In the books the real Aegon allegedly was saved by Varys and raised by Jon Connington. The character who believes he is Aegon was last seen besieging Storm's End.


Right, but he was believed to be dead, so it would make sense for Jon to be named Aegon in his honor.


----------



## Haps (Nov 30, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Snow is the more obvious lie.
> 
> From last night:
> Bran: "Jon isn't really my father's son. He's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and my aunt, Lyanna Stark. He was born in a tower in Dorne. His last name isn't really Snow, it's Sand."
> ...


The one thing I couldn't understand. Hadn't Bran been telling EVERYONE that he's the three eyed raven and he sees everything that has happened and is happening(or something to that effect). So shouldn't Bran have known the whole story about Jon. Why did it take a piece from Sam to put it together?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Haps said:


> The one thing I couldn't understand. Hadn't Bran been telling EVERYONE that he's the three eyed raven and he sees everything that has happened and is happening(or something to that effect). So shouldn't Bran have known the whole story about Jon. Why did it take a piece from Sam to put it together?


First of all nobody else seems to know what he's talking about when he says he's the Three-Eyed Raven. Even Sam, who would be the most likely to know, was completely baffled by that remark.

Second, it seems that Bran has the ability to see anything and everything, but it doesn't all just automatically stream into his brain. He has to actively choose what stuff he's going to see. So until his conversation with Sam, he had no reason to question whether Jon was the result of a rape or a legitimate marriage.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Right, but he was believed to be dead, so it would make sense for Jon to be named Aegon in his honor.


Why would Lyanna want to honor Aegon, the child of a different woman with Rhaegar with whom his marriage was annulled? I'm fine with Jon being who he is, but giving him Aegon's name (was the real Aegon dead or alive at the time, anyway?) seems a little hokey.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> Why would Lyanna want to honor Aegon, the child of a different woman with Rhaegar with whom his marriage was annulled? I'm fine with Jon being who he is, but giving him Aegon's name (was the real Aegon dead or alive at the time, anyway?) seems a little hokey.


It is not at all unusual (in our world, anyway, which Westeros's royalty is based on) for a royal's son to be named after an already dead son.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

hefe said:


> Why would Lyanna want to honor Aegon, the child of a different woman with Rhaegar with whom his marriage was annulled? I'm fine with Jon being who he is, but giving him Aegon's name (was the real Aegon dead or alive at the time, anyway?) seems a little hokey.


There are lot of Aegons in the lineage, I think 4 or 5 have been king before. Strange that that is the same name as the son, but it was likely done to make sure there was a living Aegon as the son was dead (hence her request for Ned to keep Aegon/Jon secret or Robert would have him killed).


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It is not at all unusual (in our world, anyway, which Westeros's royalty is based on) for a royal's son to be named after an already dead son.


Was he already dead at that time? I'm not sure when in the rebellion she gave birth. Why give a name that would have to be kept secret to keep him alive?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hefe said:


> Was he already dead at that time? I'm not sure when in the rebellion she gave birth. Why give a name that would have to be kept secret to keep him alive?


His name was going to have to be kept secret no matter what name she gave him, because he was a Targaryen and Robert Baratheon was trying to kill them all.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

hefe said:


> Yeah, and once he accidentally happened on some pR0n, he probably lost days down that rabbit hole...


Of course, that is how just about every healthy American male would use being the Three Eyed Raven.

Wonder if he was watching Aegon/Jon and Dany.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> His name was going to have to be kept secret no matter what name she gave him, because he was a Targaryen and Robert Baratheon was trying to kill them all.


True, but I still think that choice is a stretch. I'd rather even have it be Rhaegar after his father.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Of course, that is how just about every healthy American male would use being the Three Eyed Raven.
> 
> Wonder if he was watching Aegon/Jon and Dany.


Three eyed and one handed raven.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

hefe said:


> Was he already dead at that time? I'm not sure when in the rebellion she gave birth. Why give a name that would have to be kept secret to keep him alive?


I think the Tower of Joy event was after Kings Landing was taken so the first son was dead.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Game of Thrones: Cut Scene Would've Explained Finale's Littlefinger Twist


Don't need it. We can figure out how things happened without it being telegraphed.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

hefe said:


> Three eyed and one handed raven.


I thought we all knew which eye was the third one.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

hefe said:


> Three eyed and one handed raven.


That's the joke I was looking for....


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> First of all nobody else seems to know what he's talking about when he says he's the Three-Eyed Raven. Even Sam, who would be the most likely to know, was completely baffled by that remark.
> 
> Second, it seems that Bran has the ability to see anything and everything, but it doesn't all just automatically stream into his brain. He has to actively choose what stuff he's going to see. So until his conversation with Sam, he had no reason to question whether Jon was the result of a rape or a legitimate marriage.


Yup. That is why I used the Google analogy. Just because you have access to all the data doesn't mean you are aware of all the data. Even as he gets better at it, he will not necessarily be able to piece things together unless he goes looking for the common threads. Or stumbles on them.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Haps said:


> The one thing I couldn't understand. Hadn't Bran been telling EVERYONE that he's the three eyed raven and he sees everything that has happened and is happening(or something to that effect). So shouldn't Bran have known the whole story about Jon. Why did it take a piece from Sam to put it together?


It seems to be that he _can_ see anything that happened, but he has to spend time and focus actually watching it. Presumably he wanted to know who Jon's mother was and so viewed Jon birth and caught his Aunt telling his Father who Jon's father was (surprise, Bran previously probably had no reason to investigate whether Eddard told the truth about being Jon's father)

But then he _assumed_ that Rhaegar was still married to his original wife - so he didn't spend the time to skip back through Rhaegar's life and potentially stumble over the annulment and marriage ceremony. (But once Sam dropped his info Bran was knew to look and was immediately able to confirm it)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> His name was going to have to be kept secret no matter what name she gave him, because he was a Targaryen and Robert Baratheon was trying to kill them all.


I was starting to think he was a Foreman.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

hefe said:


> Three eyed and one handed raven.


Stop, or you'll go blind!


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't know about 3 eyed ravens, but I think there must be a 3 eyed grackle down in Pompano Beach, FL. I went by Publix at lunch today, and there were more of them in the parking lot than ravens at the wall (and they didn't seem to be any more afraid of humans than the ravens were).


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Meaningful or are people making a big deal out of nothing?


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Folks certainly spent a lot of time analyzing the blood pattern around Jon Snow's body after that finale, so they must have wanted to give them something to do during the gap between seasons.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Behind the scenes of the season finale


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

So, speculating about the ramifications of the Night King having a dragon... He can now fly pretty much anywhere at any time, and create new White Walker armies. The forces going north to fight the dead don't realize this yet, so they think the war will be fought ONLY in the North.


----------



## stamasd (Jun 26, 2002)

tlc said:


> Hydrogen? Unless helium burns magically.


It's well known that dragons concentrate helium-3 which can "burn" by performing nuclear fusion to itself and create lots and lots of heat.

3He + 3He → 4He + 2 p+ 12.86 MeV


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, no. The whole point was she was lying on the Targaryen, rolled over, and was covered with a blanket of Targaryen.


Jon really was prepared. This was in his pocket.








But they were so caught up in the moment, that he forgot, and now they have an announcement to make.










Meanwhile, back at the wall.










--Carlos V.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stamasd said:


> It's well known that dragons concentrate helium-3 which can "burn" by performing nuclear fusion to itself and create lots and lots of heat.
> 
> 3He + 3He → 4He + 2 p+ 12.86 MeV


All the women next to the Khal: It is known.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The Night King Is the Most Boring Villain in 'Game of Thrones'


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> So, speculating about the ramifications of the Night King having a dragon... He can now fly pretty much anywhere at any time, and create new White Walker armies. The forces going north to fight the dead don't realize this yet, so they think the war will be fought ONLY in the North.


I don't know that the NK can survive in warm weather. A winter storm always follows him and he is only gathering strength as not just Winter coming, but possibly the longest winter in history. There may be a connection (certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence) between him and Winter.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I don't know that the NK can survive in warm weather. A winter storm always follows him and he is only gathering strength as not just Winter coming, but possibly the longest winter in history. There may be a connection (certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence) between him and Winter.


Good point, but then again, we saw snow falling at King's Landing. So he may very well be able to fly all the way there, bringing a cold front with him that brings more winter weather, and wreak havoc by spawning more wights/walkers.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> The Night King Is the Most Boring Villain in 'Game of Thrones'


Night supremacist? LOL!


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I don't know that the NK can survive in warm weather. A winter storm always follows him and he is only gathering strength as not just Winter coming, but possibly the longest winter in history. There may be a connection (certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence) between him and Winter.


I was talking to a buddy about this yesterday. We know the wight was fine at King's Landing. The temperature there didn't seem to bother him. We also know that the Night King and winter go hand in hand, but are we assuming a causation that isn't there? I've always assumed that the Night King can only go where it's cold, so he follows Winter. When Winter comes, it lets him go farther south. But was if the causation is the other way around? What if Winter follows the Night King? He can go wherever he wants, and when he goes there it gets cold? Admittedly I haven't done any further investigation on it.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I don't know that the NK can survive in warm weather. A winter storm always follows him and he is only gathering strength as not just Winter coming, but possibly the longest winter in history. There may be a connection (certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence) between him and Winter.





BrettStah said:


> Good point, but then again, we saw snow falling at King's Landing. So he may very well be able to fly all the way there, bringing a cold front with him that brings more winter weather, and wreak havoc by spawning more wights/walkers.


That's the whole reason we have the White Walkers and the Night King right now. Because Winter has come and it's a bad one. It's going to be the worst one in thousands of years and that's what the WWs have to wait for. The WWs can't survive in summer, period. They only try to come past the Wall when a bad winter has taken hold south of the Wall. The reason The Wall was put up is because this became known and understood at some point that the WWs would come South during a long winter. It was known they couldn't cross water so a Wall was created with magic at The Neck (which was the narrowest part between the seas) to stop them from being able to come south. But it's been long enough that the WWs have become myths and legends and people forgot that they really existed so it no longer seemed important to man The Wall and maintain it. The reason the Stark Motto is Winter is Coming is because they are the farthest North and would get hit by WWs first so they took it upon themselves to always be prepared for the winter, even though they had also forgotten what that really meant.

Do recall that it started snowing in King's Landing during this episode. So it's quite cold for KL. That allowed the Wight to survive to be shown. He probably would have died had he stayed there too long or winter not come quickly enough since it wasn't as cold as where they grabbed him. He wouldn't have been there at all without being forced.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> I was talking to a buddy about this yesterday. We know the wight was fine at King's Landing. The temperature there didn't seem to bother him. We also know that the Night King and winter go hand in hand, but are we assuming a causation that isn't there? I've always assumed that the Night King can only go where it's cold, so he follows Winter. When Winter comes, it lets him go farther south. But was if the causation is the other way around? What if Winter follows the Night King? He can go wherever he wants, and when he goes there it gets cold? Admittedly I haven't done any further investigation on it.


Doesn't seem that way to me...I think you were right the first time. Winter was coming to the North long before the Night King showed up...


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It's been thousands of years since there was a really bad winter. I believe that's actually why the dragons got smaller and then died out. They were part of the natural system to stop and contain the WWs but hadn't been needed in so long they actually died out. It's no coincedence that the first dragons born in thousands of years were born at this time. They were born to do what they had always been born to do, fight the WWs. Their fire creates Dragon Glass which is one of the few things that will kill a WW. Their fire breath will do the same. Their fire is also used to create Valerian Steel which will also kill WWs. They are essential to the survival of the humans in this world.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> It's been thousands of years since there was a really bad winter. I believe that's actually why the dragons got smaller and then died out. They were part of the natural system to stop and contain the WWs but hadn't been needed in so long they actually died out. It's no coincedence that the first dragons born in thousands of years were born at this time. They were born to do what they had always been born to do, fight the WWs. Their fire creates Dragon Glass which is one of the few things that will kill a WW. Their fire breath will do the same. Their fire is also used to create Valerian Steel which will also kill WWs. They are essential to the survival of the humans in this world.


We may be arguing semantics but all winters are bad, the only difference this time is that this winter will last a historically long time. But we have heard many of the older people describe the winters they have endured; even at KL and further south. So the "badness" isn't how cold it gets, but how long this one will last. Of course, you may be able to survive a 3-year winter but not a 4-year one, I understand that. But maybe the length of time is the critical element the NK needs to conquer the entire planet before he has to retreat back to the north.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Doesn't seem that way to me...I think you were right the first time. Winter was coming to the North long before the Night King showed up...


My guess is it's a bit of both. The Night King can call up winter storms in his immediate vicinity, since he's deeply tied to Winter magic. But he had to wait for a long winter to come before a) his minions could survive in the South while outside of his immediate influence, and b) his Winter powers were strong enough to animate dragons, 'burn' down the Wall, etc.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> It's been thousands of years since there was a really bad winter. I believe that's actually why the dragons got smaller and then died out.


According to the show, the dragons got smaller and died out because they were kept in captivity (we saw the entrance to their pen at the summit meeting)...


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> According to the show, the dragons got smaller and died out because they were kept in captivity (we saw the entrance to their pen at the summit meeting)...


IIRC, even the Targaryan invasion of Westeros was part of a refugee diaspora caused by the catastrophic fall of Old Valyria. So maybe their dragon/Fire magic was already on the wane at that point, and the captivity just hastened an already inevitable degeneration?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> According to the show, the dragons got smaller and died out because they were kept in captivity (we saw the entrance to their pen at the summit meeting)...


Also, according to the show, dragons never existed and neither do WWs. Not from our point of view, obviously, but theirs. They don't really know what happened. Only that the dragons got smaller and then died out. They speculate that captivity caused them to get smaller and die out. The last dragon died hundreds of years ago. But they have no idea there is a connection between winter and WWs and dragons. Because WWs and dragons don't even exist.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> We may be arguing semantics but all winters are bad, the only difference this time is that this winter will last a historically long time. But we have heard many of the older people describe the winters they have endured; even at KL and further south. So the "badness" isn't how cold it gets, but how long this one will last. Of course, you may be able to survive a 3-year winter but not a 4-year one, I understand that. But maybe the length of time is the critical element the NK needs to conquer the entire planet before he has to retreat back to the north.


I agree it is the length and the amount of land that is covered by the winter that impacts the WWs most. But also The Wall has been in place for a very long time, as well, and was well manned and maintained for a long time. So even during more recent bad winters, the WWs were kept at bay because they were behind the wall. This is going to be a long winter and the last WW invasion was so long ago, people don't believe in them anymore and they allowed The Wall to fall into disrepair and stopped manning it as well. That's the combination that's causing the problem this time.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> Crazy theory time:
> 
> The first WW was somehow created by Bran(warging, green-seeing, whatever) and now all the WW and their wights can be killed by simply killing Bran. As Bran is one of the least liked characters, it's a win-win.


Hell, it's worth a try.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Someone (I think on facebook) was saying that true karma would actually be Cersei dying from complications after birthing a dwarf (like her mother did).


I think uncdrew said that.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> Three eyed and one handed raven.


Good thing he's a three-eyed raven in case he goes blind perhaps it takes 50% longer...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Didn't the NK take a slow, deliberate walk through the fire just before launching the javelin? Kinda goes counter to the theory that they need the cold.

That said, I don't understand why Jon didn't tell Danny to "dracarys" the NK, or why she didn't figure out to try that on her own. Especially after he killed Viserion.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

wprager said:


> That said, I don't understand why Jon didn't tell Danny to "dracarys" the NK, or why she didn't figure out to try that on her own. Especially after he killed Viserion.


If i saw someone walk through a wall of fire without concern, I don't know that i'd be in a rush to try and set him on fire.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> If i saw someone walk through a wall of fire without concern, I don't know that i'd be in a rush to try and set him on fire.


And if I saw somebody kill one of my three dragons, I don't know if I'd be in a rush to send the others after him...


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

wprager said:


> Didn't the NK take a slow, deliberate walk through the fire just before launching the javelin? Kinda goes counter to the theory that they need the cold.
> 
> That said, I don't understand why Jon didn't tell Danny to "dracarys" the NK, or why she didn't figure out to try that on her own. Especially after he killed Viserion.


Seemed more like he put out the flames as he walked, which fits with the idea that he's got some serious Winter-magic mojo that can counter fire & heat to some extent.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Didn't the NK take a slow, deliberate walk through the fire just before launching the javelin? Kinda goes counter to the theory that they need the cold.
> 
> That said, I don't understand why Jon didn't tell Danny to "dracarys" the NK,


Because they still needed a conflict to fill up seven more episodes.


wprager said:


> or why she didn't figure out to try that on her own. Especially after he killed Viserion.


She just saw this guy launch a javelin at a flying dragon and knock it out of the sky. Why would she then want to take her most precious dragon and get even closer to this guy?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Their fire creates Dragon Glass...Their fire is also used to create Valerian Steel


Is this from the book? I'm not a book reader but know quite a few book fact, but these 2 I did not know. Certainly one could presume that the name "dragonglass" meant it was created by dragons, but I don't remember that being specifically mentioned.



wprager said:


> Didn't the NK take a slow, deliberate walk through the fire just before launching the javelin?


Did he do that last week? I don't recall, but I do know for certain that when they went after Bran (when Hodor died), the children had created a ring of fire blocking the entrance, and when the WW walked up to it, the fire just sort of parted to let them walk through.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

wprager said:


> Crazy theory time:
> 
> The first WW was somehow created by Bran(warging, green-seeing, whatever) and now all the WW and their wights can be killed by simply killing Bran. As Bran is one of the least liked characters, it's a win-win.


I've recently read a theory that seems to be gaining some traction that Bran is the Night King (by traction I just mean more people are starting to read it, not that it's truth is any more likely). The picture a couple of pages back showing the white walkers in a dire wolf formation lends additional credence to the theory.

It does seem that Bran's storyline can only really be justified if he plays a huge role in the endgame beyond just someone having the ability to see the future and the past. They could have created much simpler plot contraptions to give the characters the information Bran possesses without going to all the trouble of showing Bran's journey to becoming the three-eyed raven.

I don't think your theory is mere wishful thinking, but altogether possible. If Bran is the Night King or somehow responsible for the white walkers and needs to die in order to save Westeros, it would be poetic, and very like GRM, for Jon, as King in the North, to be the one who needs to execute Bran. This harkens back to the lesson Ned gave about the ruler in the north taking on the responsibility of carrying out the execution himself, no matter how difficult. A lesson he gave to his boys about fifteen minutes into the series.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> Night supremacist? LOL!


Wight Supremacist


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

3D said:


> ...It does seem that Bran's storyline can only really be justified if he plays a huge role in the endgame beyond just someone having the ability to see the future and the past....


I'm pretty sure he can only see past and present; I don't think he can see the future.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Is this from the book? I'm not a book reader but know quite a few book fact, but these 2 I did not know. Certainly one could presume that the name "dragonglass" meant it was created by dragons, but I don't remember that being specifically mentioned.


I think the origin of Dragon Glass is my own speculation. Although the name, itself, links it to Dragons. I thought this was true from the time it was first mentioned when the Black were at the Fist of Man. In the same way that lightening striking sand creates Flugarite glass, I think that Dragon fire, striking sand or something similar, creates Dragon Glass. Dragonstone was the Targaryan ancestral home and therefore home to dragons and it is also home to Dragon Glass, as we found out this season. It all seems to link together in a logical way (if you can apply logic to dragons and magic. )

I'm pretty sure they have mentioned that Valyrian steel was forged with spells and dragonfire. Certainly in the books and maybe in the show.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I don't believe they ever talk about dragonglass being made by anything specific or magical, even in the books. But it is also referred to as obsidian.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And if I saw somebody kill one of my three dragons, I don't know if I'd be in a rush to send the others after him...





DevdogAZ said:


> Because they still needed a conflict to fill up seven more episodes.
> 
> She just saw this guy launch a javelin at a flying dragon and knock it out of the sky. Why would she then want to take her most precious dragon and get even closer to this guy?


Drogon was just ubering on the ground at this point in time, taking on passengers, looking menacing. Dany was waiting for Jon to finish being a hero and "fall back" .

It would have taken Drogon a couple seconds to turn his neck and dracarys the NK to kingdom come, or at least try. Yet he stayed there for much longer than that.

Also, after the second javelin missed, the NK did not have another handy. Dragons can corner pretty well. Could have gone back for a quick strike.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Drogon was just ubering on the ground at this point in time, taking on passengers, looking menacing. Dany was waiting for Jon to finish being a hero and "fall back" .
> 
> It would have taken Drogon a couple seconds to turn his neck and dracarys the NK to kingdom come, or at least try. Yet he stayed there for much longer than that.
> 
> Also, after the second javelin missed, the NK did not have another handy. Dragons can corner pretty well. Could have gone back for a quick strike.


1. The NK was a lot further away than the distance Drogon's flames could have reached.
2. See my first reason: The conflict with the WWs has been building for seven seasons. It would have been entirely anticlimactic and unsatisfying to have it end so easily by just having a dragon breathe fire in the direction of the Night King. They need the NK to be a serious threat throughout S8 to maintain the drama.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Also, after the second javelin missed, the NK did not have another handy. Dragons can corner pretty well. Could have gone back for a quick strike.


But for all Dany knew, he could have had a quiver full of them. It would have been insane for her to risk half her Air Force after she'd just lost 1/3 of it without knowing what she was up against...


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

hefe said:


> I don't believe they ever talk about dragonglass being made by anything specific or magical, even in the books. But it is also referred to as obsidian.


The books depict Old Valyria as a place full of magical fire, and implied that the dragons were as much a product of that fire-magic as they were a source of it. I can't recall if volcanoes were specifically mentioned, but my interpretation was always that the true source of the magic was from instense volcanic activity in that region. Meanwhile, IRL obsidian is a type a glass produced by volcanic activity. Thus, my assumption was that "dragonglass" was related to actual dragons more by association and shared magic rather than by one creating the other.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Dawghows said:


> I'm pretty sure he can only see past and present; I don't think he can see the future.


Fair enough, but the point still stands. In fact, it would be even easier to come up with plot devices to give characters information about the past if that were Bran's only role in the overall story.


----------



## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But for all Dany knew, he could have had a quiver full of them. It would have been insane for her to risk half her Air Force after she'd just lost 1/3 of it without knowing what she was up against...


That's a rather odd way of phrasing it. It wasn't a "military asset (1/3 of her Air Force)" she'd just lost, it was one of her *children.*


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

3D said:


> Fair enough, but the point still stands. In fact, it would be even easier to come up with plot devices to give characters information about the past if that were Bran's only role in the overall story.


Have you ever heard of George RR Martin? Does he ever do anything the easy or quick way?  (not saying you aren't right about Bran having a role at the end)


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> It was known they couldn't cross water so a Wall was created with magic at The Neck (which was the narrowest part between the seas) to stop them from being able to come south.


There's a second magical wall at the Neck?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Whatever that piece is called where The Wall goes across. I was thinking it was The Neck but that's farther south.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> There's a second magical wall at the Neck?


Kind of. Apparently the swamps are so bad that everyone has to go through moat cailin. Not sure if the swamp is so bad that it is literally impassible, or just inconvenient.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

People !!!. He's the NIGHT king, not the ICE king. Attack him in the day and he's toast.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> It's been thousands of years since there was a really bad winter. I believe that's actually why the dragons got smaller and then died out. They were part of the natural system to stop and contain the WWs but hadn't been needed in so long they actually died out. It's no coincedence that the first dragons born in thousands of years were born at this time. They were born to do what they had always been born to do, fight the WWs. Their fire creates Dragon Glass which is one of the few things that will kill a WW. Their fire breath will do the same. Their fire is also used to create Valerian Steel which will also kill WWs. They are essential to the survival of the humans in this world.


The White Walkers were defeated and driven north somewhere between 6 and 8 thousand years ago (that's when the Wall was built to keep them out). They were defeated by Azor Ahai with his flaming sword, Lightbringer.

I don't believe there were dragons in Westeros until the Targaryens arrived about 400 years ago (that's why they were able to conquer Westeros so easily). In fact, according to this: Dragons, they weren't even discovered in Valyria until 5000 years ago. The Wall was as much as 3000 years old by that time.

It is odd that Dragon glass and Valyrian steel are the two things known to kill White Walkers if dragons were unknown and Valyria hadn't been founded yet when the war against the White Walkers took place. It seems that the Children of the Forest had access to obsidian before dragons were even known to exist.

As far as we've been told on the show (and in the books), there has never been an encounter between the White Walkers and dragons until the battle this season.



BeanMeScot said:


> Also, according to the show, dragons never existed and neither do WWs. Not from our point of view, obviously, but theirs. They don't really know what happened. Only that the dragons got smaller and then died out. They speculate that captivity caused them to get smaller and die out. The last dragon died hundreds of years ago. But they have no idea there is a connection between winter and WWs and dragons. Because WWs and dragons don't even exist.


That's not really true. The final dragons died out about 150 years before the series starts. Until Robert became king, there were dragon skulls lining the walls of the throne room in King's Landing. Everyone knows dragons existed, they're just believed to be extinct. Even if someone has never seen a dragon skull, there are plenty of stories about the various Targaryen dragons. The Dragon Pit itself is evidence that they existed at one time.

The stories of the White Walkers predate written history. They've been passed down through stories told around the campfire and to scare young children. It's easy to dismiss them as folklore and fairy tales, especially since so much of their story (raising the dead to fight the living) is unbelievable in a world without magic.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

So 8000+ years of civilization (with magic, no less) and they are still riding horses and relying on old guys wearing chain instead of "just googling" it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> So 8000+ years of civilization (with magic, no less) and they are still riding horses and relying on old guys wearing chain instead of "just googling" it.


Well, we had nothing more than horses until about 100 years ago...and we've had civilizations for at least that many years...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

It's Friday!!! Two short days until the next episode! So exciting!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not going to tell him. YOU tell him!


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

getbak said:


> I don't believe there were dragons in Westeros until the Targaryens arrived about 400 years ago (that's why they were able to conquer Westeros so easily). In fact, according to this: Dragons, they weren't even discovered in Valyria until 5000 years ago. The Wall was as much as 3000 years old by that time.


Actually, it says that dragons were first tamed _harnessed _500 years ago. It doesn't say anything about when they were first 'discovered', nor what their natural (wild) range was prior to that.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> It's Friday!!! Two short days until the next episode! So exciting!!!


HBO's really back on top of things. I haven't read ANYTHING about any spoilers or leaks for this week's episode. Not even an episode name. They're really keeping a lid on this one....should be quite a surprise.


----------



## thefisch (Jul 25, 2015)

LordKronos said:


> HBO's really back on top of things. I haven't read ANYTHING about any spoilers or leaks for this week's episode. Not even an episode name. They're really keeping a lid on this one....should be quite a surprise.


You didn't see the trailer were some guy in a members only jacket enters the bedroom where Jon and Dany are.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

getbak said:


> That's not really true. The final dragons died out about 150 years before the series starts. Until Robert became king, there were dragon skulls lining the walls of the throne room in King's Landing. Everyone knows dragons existed, they're just believed to be extinct. Even if someone has never seen a dragon skull, there are plenty of stories about the various Targaryen dragons. The Dragon Pit itself is evidence that they existed at one time.


They knew dragons existed in Kings Landing. Outside of that city, they were unknown. They were legend to people like those in Winterfell and other far off cities.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

thefisch said:


> You didn't see the trailer were some guy in a members only jacket enters the bedroom where Jon and Dany are.


I saw that, but then it cut to black so I figured they just made a mistake and pulled the plug on the feed.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)




----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Thanks for posting. That was really well done.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Kind of. Apparently the swamps are so bad that everyone has to go through moat cailin. Not sure if the swamp is so bad that it is literally impassible, or just inconvenient.


By the time the army of the dead makes it down there it might not mater. Swamps should be a lot more passable once they're frozen solid.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

dcheesi said:


> Actually, it says that dragons were first tamed _harnessed _500 years ago. It doesn't say anything about when they were first 'discovered', nor what their natural (wild) range was prior to that.


Billiards was invented by the ancient Venetians, and it gained popularity after a group of Benedictine Monks invented felt.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Thanks for posting. That was really well done.


You're welcome!


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Sandor to Gregor: "That's not how it ends for you, brother. You know who's coming for you. You've always known."

Theory: Sandor sees things in the flames. What if Gregor did when they were kids and pushed Sandor in the flames out of fear? Gregor *saw* what's coming for him.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tlc said:


> Sandor to Gregor: "That's not how it ends for you, brother. You know who's coming for you. You've always known."
> 
> Theory: Sandor sees things in the flames. What if Gregor did when they were kids and pushed Sandor in the flames out of fear? Gregor *saw* what's coming for him.


Why? Why does everything have to be so complicated?

They have always hated each other (or, at least, Sandor has always hated his big brother). Sandor is telling his big brother that he hates him and that he will finally pay him back. Why can't it be that simple?

Sandor was shocked when he saw the stuff about the wall in the flames. If it wasn't his first time seeing things in the fire, they gave zero indication of it.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Correct, but the "chaos is a ladder" conversation came from season 3. I skimmed through the episode trying to see what happened immediately before that scene (thinking that he might have gone back to see something he was interested in and then just stuck around), but that looks to be Littlefingers' and Varys' only scene in that episode so who knows what was going on right before that. There doesn't appear to be anything eventful, and I doubt he has the time to see every random thing every person does.


That scene was the only one we as viewers saw, but it's possible Petyr had similar conversations with others. Or maybe he just thought about it a lot, and that thought stood out when he first entered the room with Bran, causing him to pick up on the phrase.

I don't know if Bran can read people's thoughts, but being able to warg into people does involve some kind of telepathy.



tlc said:


> Wight Supremacist


"Wolves will not erase us! Wolves will not erase us!"



Dawghows said:


> I'm pretty sure he can only see past and present; I don't think he can see the future.


He can't freely view events in the future like he can in the past or present. But we know Jojen had visions of the future. And the previous Three-Eyed Raven knew that Bran was meant to replace him. Plus, Ned heard Bran call out to him and Hodor was directly affected by Bran. Without knowing it, they had glimpses into the future.

So I think Bran does have some perception of the future, but it's a lot more vague.



JohnB1000 said:


> People !!!. He's the NIGHT king, not the ICE king. Attack him in the day and he's toast.


This seems like a job for Dayman:








BeanMeScot said:


> They knew dragons existed in Kings Landing. Outside of that city, they were unknown. They were legend to people like those in Winterfell and other far off cities.


They might have been legend in the sense that only stories of them remained. But nobody (at least nobody educated) thought the stories weren't real.

For example, when Tywin and Arya were at Harrenhal discussing how Aegon (the Conqueror) was able to defeat a supposedly impenetrable fortress with his dragons, they were discussing it as history, not as fable. Arya even brought up Aegon's sisters who were riding the other two dragons when Tywin didn't mention them.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

So ... just a few more months, eh?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I have to say I'm honestly shocked at how many people are actively "shipping" Jon and Dany. Some of them are even really defensive about it. I get that they are both popular characters and pretty people but I N C E S T. I can't get on board with that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Although by Targaryen standards, they're barely related..


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Why? Why does everything have to be so complicated?
> 
> They have always hated each other (or, at least, Sandor has always hated his big brother). Sandor is telling his big brother that he hates him and that he will finally pay him back. Why can't it be that simple?
> 
> Sandor was shocked when he saw the stuff about the wall in the flames. If it wasn't his first time seeing things in the fire, they gave zero indication of it.


He's been afraid of fire his whole life. He probably hasn't spent time looking into fires until now.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

What's stranger is the notion that because Sandor saw something in the flames on that one very specific occasion (he was literally having a religious experience), Gregor also saw something in the flames decades earlier...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I have to say I'm honestly shocked at how many people are actively "shipping" Jon and Dany. Some of them are even really defensive about it. I get that they are both popular characters and pretty people but I N C E S T. I can't get on board with that.


Never heard that term before (shipping a couple)...

but note that cousins marrying is not considered incest in many (most?) cultures...incest is limited to siblings (and parents, of course!).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Never heard that term before (shipping a couple)...
> 
> but note that cousins marrying is not considered incest in many (most?) cultures...incest is limited to siblings (and parents, of course!).


But they aren't cousins. She's his aunt. Her brother is his father.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> But they aren't cousins. She's his aunt. Her brother is his father.


Right. Dany's kids (if any) would be Jon Snow's cousins. And (assuming a non-related father) they'd have half the Targarian DNA than Dany does. Aunt is significantly closer genetically than cousin.

Wikipedia's article on Coefficient of relationship agrees. Its table ranks Aunt/nephew at 25% while cousin/cousin is 12.5%. (And Cercei and Jamie, as full siblings would hit 50%)


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> HBO's really back on top of things. I haven't read ANYTHING about any spoilers or leaks for this week's episode. Not even an episode name. They're really keeping a lid on this one....should be quite a surprise.


After watching last night's episode, I now know why. Absolutely nothing happened in it to move the story forward. I won't post any spoilers here, but to those who haven't watched it, you might as well skip it. In fact, I think HBO was hoping that most people would. It was so bad that I am going to boycott episodes 9 and 10. There weren't any time consistency issues, however, so it at least had that going for it.

Back to this episode, I came across an entertaining Game of Thrones web comic. You can read the whole set starting here, but my favorite is the one for this episode.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

wprager said:


> So ... just a few more months, eh?


Yeah like... 22


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

zordude said:


> Yeah like... 22


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Plus, Dany's parents (Jon's grandparents) were brother & sister. They're pretty well inbred at this point.

It seems incest isn't quite as frowned upon in this world.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> They knew dragons existed in Kings Landing. Outside of that city, they were unknown. They were legend to people like those in Winterfell and other far off cities.


Why do you say that? The Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Crownlands. All of the great houses date back to the days of dragons, and the maesters throughout the realm surely spoke of them as _history_, not legend.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Why do you say that? The Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Crownlands. All of the great houses date back to the days of dragons, and the maesters throughout the realm surely spoke of them as _history_, not legend.


White Walkers are also history. But they are treated as legend.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Dragons were history. White walkers were folklore.


----------



## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Why do you say that? The Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms, not just the Crownlands. All of the great houses date back to the days of dragons, and the maesters throughout the realm surely spoke of them as _history_, not legend.


Known history. Harenhall was courtesy of the dragons. The submission of the Vale and the North also due to dragons.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

There was a scene in the first season between Ned and Robert where Robert was showing Ned around and showing him the dragon skulls and even Ned was saying that he wasn't quite sure he believed they existed prior to seeing those skulls. And Ned would have been far more educated than the average citizen of Westeros.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MacThor said:


> Plus, Dany's parents (Jon's grandparents) were brother & sister. They're pretty well inbred at this point.
> 
> It seems incest isn't quite as frowned upon in this world.


I wouldn't say that. 
"Is she the one with the dragons or the one that f*#ks her brother".


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I wouldn't say that.
> "Is she the one with the dragons or the one that f*#ks her brother".


Stated by the character who brags about f*#king a bear.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

MacThor said:


> Plus, Dany's parents (Jon's grandparents) were brother & sister. They're pretty well inbred at this point.
> 
> It seems incest isn't quite as frowned upon in this world.


Parent/child was almost universally frowned upon but cousins or aunts/nephews or uncles/nieces has been quite common in *this* world not that long ago. Mainly among the Royals, of course.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

MacThor said:


> Stated by the character who brags about f*#king a bear.


A she-bear of no relation to him. Plus it could have been one of the Mormont women (I wonder if Tormond could be Lyanna Mormont's father).


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

wprager said:


> Parent/child was almost universally frowned upon but cousins or aunts/nephews or uncles/nieces has been quite common in *this* world not that long ago. Mainly among the Royals, of course.


... and throughout the bible.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wprager said:


> Parent/child was almost universally frowned upon but cousins or aunts/nephews or uncles/nieces has been quite common in *this* world not that long ago. Mainly among the Royals, of course.


Not so...Up until a few decades ago, cousins were fixed up from birth in arranged marriages in Egypt...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

A woman I know married her uncle--they went to some Caribbean country to make it "legal." But they were beyond childbearing years.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

When to start your Game of Thrones rewatch


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> When to start your Game of Thrones rewatch


The fact that this article exists says a lot about us as a society.

The fact that I'm poring over it says a lot about me.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> When to start your Game of Thrones rewatch


My wife and I started are rewatch a few months ago. We have been averaging about 3-5 episodes a week (more during the holidays) and are nearly done with season 6 now. I suggested to my wife that we slow down and she wouldn't hear of it. Assuming we finish soon, we will probably end up watching the last few episodes again, right before April.


----------

