# No 5.1 for Hulu, Sling and maybe others? Android TV



## Consultant (Dec 30, 2020)

I bought both the Chromecast With Google TV and the TV Stream 4K. A little beside the point but I'll first mention I like the live streaming guide on the Tivo better because it integrates Sling, Pluto, Locast, etc. 

What really made me relegate the CCWGTV to the bedroom where I just use the TV speakers is on my newer Yamaha receiver I noticed on Hulu, Sling, and YouTube TV (when I was testing it) the CCGWGT was sending the Yamaha 2-channel audio which the Yamaha then spoofs it as 5.1 using DTS Neo or Dolby (Fake) Surround mode. I also found the TS4K did this unless I went into settings and manually turned on all the surround modes and rebooted. Then the Yamaha would show a Dolby Digital + signal for Hulu, Sling and YouTube TV. After a while though I noticed that my center channel speaker wasn't being used for the dialog on any of those three apps.

So I think by manually turning on the surround modes I actually faked myself out and just trusted I was getting a true 5.1 signal due to the Dolby Digital + on the Yamaha display! And therefore the TS4K is no different than the CCWGTV. Hulu, Sling, and YouTube TV when running on the Android TV O/S - at least on those two devices, don't appear to be sending a discrete 5.1 digital surround audio signal from those apps. Netflix, HBOMax, Amazon Prime, Showtime, no problem there, I get REAL 5.1 Dolby Digital + Surround including Atmos when available.

I saw maybe one or two other mentions of this on older threads about the center channel not being used and I'm wondering how many TS4K users like me, using Hulu, Sling or YouTubeTV may have not noticed their receiver is actually outputting wither "fake" surround from a 2-channel source and not true 5.1 surround or even they are seeing Dolby Digital on their receiver have not noticed the Dialog doesn't come out the center speaker?

So it seems the solution is to turn the Surround mode back to auto, and then the Android TV apps that currently don't support 5.1 (Hulu, Sling, and YouTube TV) you'll at least get simulated surround with dialogue coming out the center.

I feel like I'm going crazy with all this. I could have sworn testing Star Trek Beyond on Hulu with the Dolby Digital + showing, I was getting rear sound but I rechecked it and nope. Only stereo. Only get rear sound if in DTS Neo Cinema mode. Can anyone else confirm my conclusions are correct that there's no 5.1 output for these combinations of apps and devices?


----------



## lparsons21 (Feb 17, 2015)

Hulu does DD5.1 for some, but not all of their on demand stuff.
The only live streaming service that does DD5.1 on their live channels is AT&T TV. All the rest just do stereo.


----------



## gor88 (Jan 3, 2008)

Actually, what your Yamaha receiver might be doing is decoding analog Dolby Pro-Logic Surround (the predecessor to Dolby Digital 5.1, also known as AC-3) embedded within the stereo channels. This format was referred to in theaters many, many moons ago as "Dolby Stereo", with movie posters containing that particular Dolby logo. This isn't really a fake surround in the sense of being synthesized by the receiver, but a 4.0 (Left, Right, Center and Rear-with both rear speakers putting out the same sound) version of surround that the production team of the programming in question encoded in much the same way as is done for newer Dolby Digital formats. The only prerequisite to decode a program encoded in Dolby Pro-Logic is to receive the distinct left and right stereo channels. Pro Logic was my surround mode from 1995-2002, when I promoted to Dolby Digital 5.1 after switching to satellite and to get the best surround out of DVDs.

For more information, you can Google "Dolby Pro Logic wiki" and read the wikipedia article about it. I'd post the link, but some sites complain about Fair Usage regulations.

That would explain why you hear dialog properly coming from the Center channel and proper Rear sound effects from the rear channels in the Dolby Surround mode.

Note that the above only applies if your receiver is using the Dolby Pro Logic surround mode. If your receiver is using the Dolby Pro Logic II (simulated 5.1) or IIx (simulated 7.1) or IIz (simulated 7.1 Height or 9.1) modes, that IS fake enhanced surround synthesized by the receiver. These modes do look for and use the embedded Pro-Logic information, but employ synthesizing that information to create the additional channels not included in the source Pro Logic encoding.

Until the live streaming services actually adopt use of DD 5.1 or DD+, the best you can hope for is your receiver to decode the embedded Pro Logic information.


----------



## Eddie501 (Jun 4, 2004)

I have found a solution, at least for Hulu. If you cast to the built in Chromecast from your phone or tablet, it will play true 5.1 on either device. And you can still use the remotes to pause, etc. The other two don't deliver 5.1 so you'll have to fake it, no matter what device you use.

This bugs me quite a bit about these Android streamers. I don't know why apps functions so differently across devices.


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Sling does not do 5.1 period.


----------



## Consultant (Dec 30, 2020)

Doesn't AT&T now have to be sideloaded because it's not in the Android TV Play Store? That was the case when I tried it 5 months ago and it didn't work very well.


----------



## StreamerUser (Jan 24, 2021)

Consultant said:


> I bought both the Chromecast With Google TV and the TV Stream 4K. A little beside the point but I'll first mention I like the live streaming guide on the Tivo better because it integrates Sling, Pluto, Locast, etc.
> 
> What really made me relegate the CCWGTV to the bedroom where I just use the TV speakers is on my newer Yamaha receiver I noticed on Hulu, Sling, and YouTube TV (when I was testing it) the CCGWGT was sending the Yamaha 2-channel audio which the Yamaha then spoofs it as 5.1 using DTS Neo or Dolby (Fake) Surround mode. I also found the TS4K did this unless I went into settings and manually turned on all the surround modes and rebooted. Then the Yamaha would show a Dolby Digital + signal for Hulu, Sling and YouTube TV. After a while though I noticed that my center channel speaker wasn't being used for the dialog on any of those three apps.
> 
> ...


Some services (e.g. NetFlix/Prime/Hulu/Disney+) exclusively use DD+ (EAC3) for multichannel/5.1 output.

Other services/apps (e.g. Apple TV, HBO Max, Paramount+, The Roku Channel) either have both DD+/DD (depending on user/device config) or are DD-only.

Furthermore, 5.1 output is device/platform dependent for Hulu (and other streaming services/apps for that matter) - not all platforms/devices are 5.1-enabled: e.g. for Android TV-based streamers, the Nvidia Shield was 5.1-enabled about a week ago, though the TS4K and the GCCWGTV are not.

And of course, for 5.1-enabled Hulu platforms, not all output is 5.1 - it has to have a 5.1 tag in the details for the movie/show (Hulu Originals are a good test to check 4K/5.1 support).

Also keep in mind the TS4K's Dolby decoder is not fully enabled/is broken - once the Decoder is in transcode mode (DD+ to DD) it applies it universally to all content without providing DD+ support to apps, such that the DD+-only apps are outputting PCM 2.0 in a DD5.1 format, etc.

FYI, This is also true for Hulu's 4K support - While Roku and Fire TV are 4K/5.1 enabled, none of the Android TV devices are.

Hulu 5.1 info: Hulu Help

Hulu 4K info: Hulu Help


----------



## Consultant (Dec 30, 2020)

Thank you @StreamerUser for the full details. I may just end up keeping my new Nvidia Shield then and not return it to Amazon. Currently YouTube TV is broke on the TS4K for live TV, the video freezes. The TS4K is very random on whether it puts my receiver into DD+ or 2-channel Virtual Surround on 2-channel sources. It seems once it goes into DD+ it stays there and the problem is, then there is no center channel and listening to the news with a silent center channel is odd. My Yamaha Receiver does a good job of converting 2-channel to virtual surround (I used Neo 6 Cinema mode) so I am now using the CCWGTV for my main viewer and relegated the TS4K to the bedroom. But now I think I'll use the Shield in the main room and the CCWGTV for the bedroom since I only watch live TV at night in the bedroom and YouTube TV Live streams are broken on the TS4K.

I'm a long time A/V Enthusiast, but geez this stuff is also so in flux no matter what device/service you are considering. Roku dumping YouTube TV App then Google giving them the finger and letting users get to it through the regular YouTube app is yet just another story in the latest stream of issues with device+service combinations. It's like the Wild West or something out there.

It seems the bottom line is, even if you don't need the gaming and more advanced capabilities of the Shield, if you can afford it, it's the one that is going to have the least issues no matter what services you are using. Apple TV would be a consideration but I live in the Google Ecosystem. I don't see a huge advantage at this point to the Google TV interface over the Tivo/Nvidia Android TV interface but I expect Google will force all TV and streaming dongle makers to switch to it over time.


----------



## StreamerUser (Jan 24, 2021)

Consultant said:


> Thank you @StreamerUser for the full details. I may just end up keeping my new Nvidia Shield then and not return it to Amazon. Currently YouTube TV is broke on the TS4K for live TV, the video freezes. The TS4K is very random on whether it puts my receiver into DD+ or 2-channel Virtual Surround on 2-channel sources. It seems once it goes into DD+ it stays there and the problem is, then there is no center channel and listening to the news with a silent center channel is odd. My Yamaha Receiver does a good job of converting 2-channel to virtual surround (I used Neo 6 Cinema mode) so I am now using the CCWGTV for my main viewer and relegated the TS4K to the bedroom. But now I think I'll use the Shield in the main room and the CCWGTV for the bedroom since I only watch live TV at night in the bedroom and YouTube TV Live streams are broken on the TS4K.
> 
> I'm a long time A/V Enthusiast, but geez this stuff is also so in flux no matter what device/service you are considering. Roku dumping YouTube TV App then Google giving them the finger and letting users get to it through the regular YouTube app is yet just another story in the latest stream of issues with device+service combinations. It's like the Wild West or something out there.
> 
> It seems the bottom line is, even if you don't need the gaming and more advanced capabilities of the Shield, if you can afford it, it's the one that is going to have the least issues no matter what services you are using. Apple TV would be a consideration but I live in the Google Ecosystem. I don't see a huge advantage at this point to the Google TV interface over the Tivo/Nvidia Android TV interface but I expect Google will force all TV and streaming dongle makers to switch to it over time.


FYI, Roku hasnt dumped the YT TV app - they just made it unavailable for new user downloads/installs (its actually technically still in the Roku Channel Store, much like the Spectrum app). Its still available for accounts that already had/have it installed, and Google is even updating the YT TV app (there was a major platform update today for both YT/YTTV, for 4K/HDR-capable Roku models).

I recommend keeping the Shield (and all of your streaming devices) as part of a multiplatform streaming strategy (for app carriage/compatibility/functionality/usability differences, e.g. YTTV, or Hulu).

However, that being said, the Shields have their own set of issues, especially as relates to app updates: they are among the last of platforms (even for Android TV) to get updates/fixes, especially as it relates to 4K/HDR/5.1/Atmos, and some of their apps will never get HDR support (YT), and the platform has no HLG support at all, and they tend to have more issues related to missing 5.1 audio overall.

Some of it is very much in flux (Hulu added 5.1 support to the Shield a week ago), other aspects are very slow to change (Hulu hasnt added a 4K platform for over a year and a half) - keeping track of all the device+firmware versions+app versions as it relates to 4K/HDR10/DV/DD+5.1/DD5.1/Atmos/etc support is a forever ongoing task (you either have to be paid or very motivated/enthusiastic to keep track of it all).

Unified consistent interfaces across model ranges/lines/platforms is what they are all going for, Roku/Amazon/Google/etc included - hard to avoid that without more technically extreme measures.


----------



## Consultant (Dec 30, 2020)

@StreamerUser Thanks for the additional details. I've now more fully tested the Shield. There's more settings on the Shield includin the touted AI 4K Upscaling. I've seen the demos of it on YouTube in Demo mode and was not impressed. Seems more like a gimmick to me than actually providing a very significant enhancement to the picture quality. What do you think? Where's the demo between 1080, AI Upscale, and actual 4K? THAT would be interesting to see.

The other interesting setting is the ability to turn on 2-channel PCM 5.1 Upscaling. The produces a very different sound than the Neo 6, Neural X, or Dolby Surround upscaling my mid-range Yamaha receiver does. I had to go back and forth with it all night with different programs to make a final decision to use it or not. As mentioned before the TS4K will get locked into DD+ mode and at that point my receiver (and I imagine others) wil output 2-channel stereo because it's receiving a digital surround signal in 5.1 but with only the left and right having any content so it won't upscale it because it recognizes it as a digitial 5.1 signal. The Yamaha virtual surround modes really emphasize the center channel with most content whereas the Shield 5.1 Upscale, it pushes a lot more of the dialog and high frequencies to the left and right making the center have less sound and a little muffled and also I get more low frequency coming out the sub. For programming with live music performances, at first I thought it sounder better, at least "fuller" but it was just a little too bass heavy whereas the Yamaha's virtual surround sounded cleaner/crisper more well balanced but not as "wide" as Nvidias upscaling. Interestingly for Hulu content like Star Trek Beyond, my receiver flashes between DD+ and Virtual Surround Neo6 and the sound sounds like the normal Neo 6 virtual surround and it does not make a difference if I turn the Shield upscaling on or not. So not sure if that title is 5.1 and there's just no indication of it on the Hulu info?

Overall I thought it best to leave the Shield 2 channel upscaling off as I think Yamaha has more "intelligent" software for producing virtual surround than Nvidia's upscaling feature. Without that feature turned on and not being impressed by the 4K upscaling, I'm struggling to find a reason to keep the much more expensive Shield as the CCWGTV is performing just fine and in the future if I stick with the Android TV platform I believe all the dongles and smart TVs will move to the Google TV interface as I have less sophisticated users in the household so providing a consistent interface over time is preferable as opposed to keep switching devices/interfaces on them. Also short comments about the Shield "having it's own issues" sort of took the wind out of my sails on my enthusiasm for paying the extra money to have that 'fancier' device. I ruled out getting a Roku as I want to stay within the Google Ecosystem as I'm an Android user with Google Home Devices and don't see any huge compelling reason to switch to a completely different SmartTV ecosystem. Although the Roku is very user friendly in my reading and experience previously with it. My parents in their mid 70's find it very usable for them.

I can still use the TS4K in the bedroom to watch recorded YouTube TV until they fix the video lockup bug as it doesn't seem to happen on the library content playback.

The jury hasn't reached a final verdict yet and which I believe is sort of the case you're making in that these devices can "leapfrog" each other on which one is currently the best as far as least bugs and most feature support. You said Shield just added 5.1 capability to Hulu. Can you confirm a title on Hulu that will demonstrate it has it. I browsed through a few titles and couldn't find any with the 5.1 designation.

Although in my opinion Google is primarily a search/advertising/email service provider, I think their future devices and updates should be more and more compelling similar to how their Pixel phones started out not very impressive but have grown to be top contenders, especially for the price point. It just takes them a while to get their crap together when they enter a new market space. Unfortunately I think the Tivo brand name has slid, affecting new device adoption and the revenues from them which has limited Tivo's resources to be a top contender for best Smart TV device going forward. Most all the new TVs I guess will have GoogleTV as the fixed or optional interface and will not be striking partnerships with Tivo.


----------



## StreamerUser (Jan 24, 2021)

The shields "AI Upscaling" is useless to me, i'd disable it completely if i could (I prefer my TV to do the upscaling, if any), though virtually no streamer allows per-content resolution passthrough.

I'd recommend disabling the Shields 2.0<5.1 "stereo upmix" and using your AVRs as well (its better).

Its hard to justify the Shield, unless you do a lot of local streaming (PC/NAS/DLNA/UPNP/etc) and need lossless audio passthrough output, especially considering all its limitations relative to much cheaper devices.

5.1 content has a 5.1 tag on it when you look at the details (and/or 4K, for 4K-enabled platforms); any of the Hulu Originals should work fine.

If you don't see the 5.1 tag on any content, its likely it doesnt detect DD+ support: enable "Dolby audio processing" if you have a DD-only legacy AVR.


----------

