# Doctor Who: Last Christmas - 12/25/2014 - Spoilers (obviously)



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Hmmm, Alien meets Inception meets total silliness and butts heads with Nick Frost.

Cheap production values, too.

Can you tell I wasn't impressed?


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I loved it. Thought it was fantastic and the best of a great season.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I liked it too. I liked the silliness for its own sake, and I like that it had an in-story explanation.

And I'm glad that they were faking us out with Clara leaving at the end of the regular season. I think there were flashes of good chemistry between them, and hopefully the second season of Doctor Scot will have a better sense of what they have to work with than the first, which frankly floundered a lot.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

I'm ambivalent.

On the good side:
- I thought they rescued the ostensibly ludicrous story concept of "the Doctor meets Santa" and actually crafted a fairly reasonable in-story explanation. 
- I thought that for the first time in a long time, the Doctor and Clara had decent chemistry together.

On the bad side:
- I thought pacing was uneven. There were definitely moments that seemed to exist only to pad out the episode length. 
- As one specific example... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I didn't see a need for the entire "Clara is old" segment at all. It seemed to be just an excuse to get Jenna in some really, really bad aging makeup.
- I didn't like that the episode seemed to crib some ideas from other sources, like _Inception_ and _Alien_. (Granted, the latter could be considered an homage, since they made reference to it in story.)
- I thought there was far too abrupt a 'reset button' for Clara, going from being still heartbroken over Danny, to being eager to jump right back into the TARDIS and go traveling with the Doctor at the end. It didn't seem a natural evolution of her feelings at all.


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

It was mostly predictable silliness - but it was still fun, and I enjoyed it.

I think when it comes right down to it, we've all seen too much sci-fi to have not 'seen that before'. I've not seen Inception, but it immediately reminded me of two episodes of Farscape and other similar sequences from other shows/movies - especially as soon as the first person could not explain their mission. And the headcrabs were right out of Half-Life, even if they were really facehuggers from Alien. And never being sure when you've truly waking up, requiring multiple levels of waking up, (requires those extra scenes), all been done beforec...

For a Christmas episode, it's all forgivable... Sure, it wasn't The Day of the Doctor, but it was still enjoyable.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought it was very enjoyable and very well done. I could always nit pick here and there but over all, I liked this Christmas episode a lot.

I wish they could add Shona as a companion next season. She'd be fun.

When the Doctor yelled "Yippee ki yay" my inner John McClane supplied the next word.

I watched it early this morning with headphones on through my AV receiver so as not to disturb others. The background music and sounds are very loud compared to the foreground dialogue, drowning it out at times. Really annoying. I'll try watching it later using the tv's speakers to see if it's the same.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LoadStar said:


> - As one specific example... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I didn't see a need for the entire "Clara is old" segment at all.


I suspect it was just a slap-in-the-face to the Daily Mirror's annual "rumors" that The Doctor/The Companion would be leaving after the current season (which they apparently do routinely so that when somebody actually DOES leave they can claim to have known about it before anybody else). For some reason, the DM was a lot more insistent this year about Clara. Perhaps because the BBC "let" them find out about that scene?


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

What a weird perspective  Annual rumor ? This story was pretty strong across the board and never denied plus the Mirror was the first to report she was staying.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Now that Clara has appeared to leave by choice a couple of times they can't really go to that well again. This tends to suggest a more traumatic or less 'by choice' departure.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> I loved it. Thought it was fantastic and the best of a great season.


I agree!

Scott


----------



## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

I thought it was OK and I even read the Entertainment Weekly recap to make sure I didn't miss anything.

So these face hugging Dream Crabs attached themselves to some random people, including Clara, and everything else was part of a dream within a dream until they ultimately really wake up. OK, fine. But what remains unanswered is where did these things come from in the first place and what is being done to stop them. It seems like the answer is NOTHING. But that is definitely out of character for Dr Who who has always done everything he can to save mankind. Yet here, other than saving some people and Clara, he has left a potentially devastating parasite remain loose on the Earth. That kind of left me not liking this story overall.

Comments?

Gerry


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Maybe the facehuggers play a part in a longer story arc next season? Maybe The Doctor has yet to have his big battle with them.


----------



## DVC California (Jun 4, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> When the Doctor yelled "Yippee ki yay" my inner John McClane supplied the next word.


Lol, yes and Malcolm Tucker would work too!


----------



## Linnemir (Apr 7, 2009)

He is rapidly taking Pertwee's place as my overall favorite! I just wish they would give him better scripts to work with. 

And I had a 'sniffle' moment at one point when he looked at Clara with such love and caring, but not a bit of romance! It rather reminded me of Pertwee and Jo, sentimentalist that I am!


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

probably my favorite episode of the season


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Linnemir said:


> He is rapidly taking Pertwee's place as my overall favorite! I just wish they would give him better scripts to work with.


After watching this last night, I decided that Capaldi has pushed Tom Baker out of the #1 slot despite the many awful scripts he's been given so far.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Cheap production values, too.


This must be your first experience with Doctor Who.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

My brain cannot wrap itself around time travel stories. So if he didn't get back to dig her out of the cocoon for 62 years, when did she live the life she talked about? Or was that all the dream? (I know that was still dream, but I mean when he thought he really had waited 62 years)

And if he had waited 62 years, could he then go back 40 years and do it then, or is that impossible since she didn't remember it happening? 

And why could he not tell that she was hideously old? Or was that just the "you'll always be beautiful to me" thing that you men try to tell?


----------



## supasta (May 6, 2006)

I enjoyed it quite a bit. Capaldi is growing on me (Smith being my favorite).


----------



## Jagman_sl (Mar 14, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> My brain cannot wrap itself around time travel stories. So if he didn't get back to dig her out of the cocoon for 62 years, when did she live the life she talked about? Or was that all the dream? (I know that was still dream, but I mean when he thought he really had waited 62 years)
> 
> And if he had waited 62 years, could he then go back 40 years and do it then, or is that impossible since she didn't remember it happening?
> 
> And why could he not tell that she was hideously old? Or was that just the "you'll always be beautiful to me" thing that you men try to tell?


The Doctor stated that everybody would be returned to their proper place and time, and then explained something about how the dream was timeless and could cross the years. So the assumption was that she lived that long life before the thing ever attacked her.

Of course, that may also have been completely undone by showing us that they were both still dreaming anyway, so who knows what really happened?

As for not being able to tell she was old, I think it was a combination of him wanting to be kind to his old friend, but also his inability to see her as more than just a companion. There were several instances this season where he was clearly oblivious to how Clara looked.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

stellie93 said:


> My brain cannot wrap itself around time travel stories. So if he didn't get back to dig her out of the cocoon for 62 years, when did she live the life she talked about? Or was that all the dream? (I know that was still dream, but I mean when he thought he really had waited 62 years)
> 
> And if he had waited 62 years, could he then go back 40 years and do it then, or is that impossible since she didn't remember it happening?
> 
> And why could he not tell that she was hideously old? Or was that just the "you'll always be beautiful to me" thing that you men try to tell?


She lived those 62 years, then got face-hugged; a few minutes later in realtime, after the dream-state events, she woke up, the face-hugger died and she met the Doctor for the final time. It was explained that the face-huggers weren't time-bound.

Or at least that would have been the story if Ms. Coleman hadn't changed her mind and come back to the show (or whatever really happened).


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I enjoyed it for the most part. And like the Doctor I kicked myself for not seeing the obvious "mistakes" in the plot.



LoadStar said:


> - I thought there was far too abrupt a 'reset button' for Clara, going from being still heartbroken over Danny, to being eager to jump right back into the TARDIS and go traveling with the Doctor at the end. It didn't seem a natural evolution of her feelings at all.


I was worried that they were going to reset back to before Danny died, saying all that happened in a dream. I'm glad they didn't go that route.


----------



## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

I am relatively new to the world of Doctor Who. For the past year I have been catching up since the reboot in 2005 on Netflix, but at the same time I have watching the current season. 

At first I was perplexed at the choice of actor for the current Doctor, but after this most recent season, I go back and watch the older episodes (right now I am on the episodes with David Tennant as The Doctor) and I have a hard time accepting these other actors as The Doctor, because now Peter Capaldi to me is the epitome of who The Doctor should be. 

I will wade through the Matt Smith years to get more of the back story, and I watched the last Christmas special, but I am really looking forward to the next season.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DeDondeEs said:


> I am relatively new to the world of Doctor Who. For the past year I have been catching up since the reboot in 2005 on Netflix, but at the same time I have watching the current season.
> 
> At first I was perplexed at the choice of actor for the current Doctor, but after this most recent season, I go back and watch the older episodes (right now I am on the episodes with David Tennant as The Doctor) and I have a hard time accepting these other actors as The Doctor, because now Peter Capaldi to me is the epitome of who The Doctor should be.
> 
> I will wade through the Matt Smith years to get more of the back story, and I watched the last Christmas special, but I am really looking forward to the next season.


It's been said that your first Doctor is your favorite Doctor. I first watched Doctor Who on Saturday afternoons on PBS on a 19" black & white tv while I was in college. Tom Baker will always be "The" Doctor to me. Jon Pertwee ranks 2nd. I prefer the old school middle aged, cranky Doctors to the recent young, emotional Doctors.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

LoadStar said:


> - As one specific example... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I didn't see a need for the entire "Clara is old" segment at all. It seemed to be just an excuse to get Jenna in some really, really bad aging makeup.


That was the catalyst for them both to finally decide to travel together again. It made them realize the regrets they would have if they didn't. Up until then, they had each resolved to not travel together for the other's sake ("I lied about Danny being alive so you'd go to Gallifrey", "I lied about Gallifrey so you'd stay with Danny", "I sold my hair for this chain", " I sold my watch for this brush" )


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

"You have a horror movie called _Alien_?! That's very offensive; no wonder you're getting invaded all the time."


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> It's been said that your first Doctor is your favorite Doctor.


I started with the relaunch, so my first doctor was Chris Eccleston, but David Tennant is by far and away my favorite doctor, and likely will always be.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> "You have a horror movie called _Alien_?! That's very offensive; no wonder you're getting invaded all the time."


You noticed that line too?


----------



## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

That was the best line in the episode!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And the second-best thing about it is it's so funny, it lets them off the hook for ripping off the Alien face-huggers. (Now, there's a lantern on that hook.)

(The best thing about it is Capaldi's delivery.)


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> I started with the relaunch, so my first doctor was Chris Eccleston, but David Tennant is by far and away my favorite doctor, and likely will always be.


Same here (at least so far).

Scott


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

scandia101 said:


> This must be your first experience with Doctor Who.


Really? My first Doctor was Hartnell, but the first one I really remember is Troughton. I'm English, remember?

My comment was referring to the reboot rather than the whole thing and I thought it was lacking.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

All the reboot doctors are my favorite doctors


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> - I thought there was far too abrupt a 'reset button' for Clara, going from being still heartbroken over Danny, to being eager to jump right back into the TARDIS and go traveling with the Doctor at the end. It didn't seem a natural evolution of her feelings at all.


I agree with you 90% of the way.

But don't forget what Clara said when she didn't realise the Cyberman she was talking to was Danny.

###
Clara: But how do I know so much about [the Doctor]?

Cyberman [Dannny]: You are his associate.

Clara: No, I'm not. I'm not his associate. I'm his best friend.
Right now, his best friend, anywhere in the universe.
Have you got any sort of Cyber-Internet in there because, really, you should look it up.
Look up what happens to you, if you harm me.

Cyberman [Danny]: Where is the Doctor?

Clara: What, you think I would give up the Doctor? Don't be daft.
I would never, ever, give up the Doctor. Because he is my best friend, too.
He is the closest person to me in this whole world.
He is the man I will always forgive, always trust,
He is the one man I would never, ever lie to.
###

No wonder soldier Danny suicided on the battlefield after that revelation was dropped on him.

(and the reason why the Doctor lied about finding Galifrey was so she would stay with Danny instead of travelling through all of time and all of space him)


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

LoadStar said:


> I started with the relaunch, so my first doctor was Chris Eccleston, but David Tennant is by far and away my favorite doctor, and likely will always be.


This. I liked Eccleston and Matt Smith grew on me, but Tennant IS the Doctor.


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

pgogborn said:


> I agree with you 90% of the way.
> 
> But don't forget what Clara said when she didn't realise the Cyberman she was talking to was Danny.
> 
> ...


True enough - but that last quote is especially relevant because at the end of that episode, Clara *did* lie to the Doctor, meaning her relationship with the Doctor had radically changed.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LoadStar said:


> I started with the relaunch, so my first doctor was Chris Eccleston, but David Tennant is by far and away my favorite doctor, and likely will always be.





sushikitten said:


> This. I liked Eccleston and Matt Smith grew on me, but Tennant IS the Doctor.


Me too. :up:


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the second-best thing about it is it's so funny, it lets them off the hook for ripping off the Alien face-huggers. (Now, there's a lantern on that hook.)
> 
> (The best thing about it is Capaldi's delivery.)


As soon as the redshirt said "face-huggers" I practically screamed "hang that lantern!!"


----------



## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> probably my favorite episode of the season


Me too, but the bar on this season is a really low standard. 



scandia101 said:


> After watching this last night, I decided that Capaldi has pushed Tom Baker out of the #1 slot despite the many awful scripts he's been given so far.


I'll confess freely that I'm a New Whovian. I had seen the show off and on during the Baker and Davison years, and picked up enough bits of lore that I knew a lot about the universe, but I didn't start watching regularly until the reboot.

However -- I have to give Baker credit. At the end of The Day of the Doctor, when we hear his voice off-screen, I got chills. It shows what a lightweight Smith really is, compared to an actor who has a voice and knows what to do with it. So while I may not be able to say that Baker is *the* Doctor, I certainly understand why those fans would like him best.



cheesesteak said:


> It's been said that your first Doctor is your favorite Doctor. I first watched Doctor Who on Saturday afternoons on PBS on a 19" black & white tv while I was in college. Tom Baker will always be "The" Doctor to me. Jon Pertwee ranks 2nd. I prefer the old school middle aged, cranky Doctors to the recent young, emotional Doctors.





LoadStar said:


> I started with the relaunch, so my first doctor was Chris Eccleston, but David Tennant is by far and away my favorite doctor, and likely will always be.


I suppose if I had to pick a 'first doctor' it would be Eccleston. I had difficulty at first when David came in, but he grew to be my favorite.

Until John Hurt showed up.

I guess I have to say that Tennant is still my favorite, but many of my favorite "Doctor moments" in The Day of the Doctor" belong to Hurt.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Really? My first Doctor was Hartnell, but the first one I really remember is Troughton. I'm English, remember?
> 
> My comment was referring to the reboot rather than the whole thing and I thought it was lacking.


Really? No, it's called sarcasm. it's what you get when you complain about something after 51 years of accepting it.

You are absolutely right that it's production values were lacking. But That could be said about every single episode produced since 2005 and complaining about it after 9 years is rather pointless.

51 years of low production values. They better step up their game or the show will never last.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Production values are pretty high for BBC


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

scandia101 said:


> You are absolutely right that it's production values were lacking. But That could be said about every single episode produced since 2005 and complaining about it after 9 years is rather pointless.


I disagree that the production values are low. They clearly were very often during the original run... I doubt many would disagree. They also have been on occasion since it came back, but to say "every single episode produced since 2005" has low production values is ludicrous.

I actually think that the instances of bad production values are the rare exception, not the rule, during the run of relaunch episodes.


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I enjoyed it very much though it will need another watch.

Less complaining of cheap production values please


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

I thought it was the best episode this season, and the only one I'm likely to re-watch. (And Pertwee and Baker were my Doctors. Of the new breed, Tennant wins hands down, with Eccleston in 2nd, and Smith will end up in last place forever, for me. Even behind McCoy. I hated him.)


----------



## LoadStar (Jul 24, 2001)

Definitely the best episode of the worst series of the show (although, technically, is the Christmas episode part of series 8 or series 9 of the relaunch?)


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

eddyj said:


> That was the best line in the episode!


My favorite line was, Santa's:

Doctor: How do you get all the presents in the sleigh?
Santa: Bigger on the inside
Elves: oooooh....


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

For a ridiculous (on the surface) premise, this was a surprisingly excellent episode. The Doctor was excellent as well, and there was actual chemistry between him and Clara. Maybe there is hope going forward after all ...

One exchange stood out ... 
It's an invasion ... Depending on how many dream crabs are on Earth, the human race may very well have seen its last days ... so why are we standing around and arguing, instead of saving Christmas...

Not saving the people, or Earth, etc - but Christmas ... seems an odd comment to make. Of course if it's a dream all bets are off.


----------



## stargazer21 (May 22, 2002)

We had a watch party, and everyone there loved the episode. It brought the funny, scary creatures and the tears. It was one of my favorite Christmas episodes ever. 

But what makes it even better two days later...my sister and brother in law, who definitely are NOT Whovians, decided to come over and watch with everyone, since it sounded like a party anyway. They seemed to enjoy it, but have fought assimilation for so long that I didn't hold much hope. Until today, when my sister started texting me lines from Eleven's era.  . Seems that they enjoyed it enough, that they turned on the marathon today "just for background noise", and by the end of the night were quoting and asking what to watch next. So, thanks to an excellent Christmas ep...they are in assimilation mode.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I enjoyed this episode overall, and agree that it was one of the better Capaldi ones.



LoadStar said:


> As one specific example... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I didn't see a need for the entire "Clara is old" segment at all.


I didn't either.

Although, I wasn't aware of the rumors that Rob mentioned about Jenna leaving. I actually thought it was a fact she was leaving, and assumed it had been at the end of the regular season. Somehow I avoided all the promotions regarding this special (I didn't intentionally seek anything out, but didn't deliberately hide from anything either), and so was surprised to see her in the very first scene.

Then I saw the "Clara is old" scene, and thought, "Oh, she must have been leaving after this episode."

Then the end happened, and I wondered what the point of the previous scene had been.

Just before the ending, another thought I had was that maybe Clara actually was old, and their "second chance" was really just the dream giving them what they had wanted. (Which I suppose maybe was what the tangerine was supposed to indicate.)

And I guess maybe that was the point of that whole sequence, a callback to the Doctor's earlier line that we can never truly know that we aren't dreaming.



Gerryex said:


> So these face hugging Dream Crabs attached themselves to some random people, including Clara, and everything else was part of a dream within a dream until they ultimately really wake up. OK, fine. But what remains unanswered is where did these things come from in the first place and what is being done to stop them. It seems like the answer is NOTHING. But that is definitely out of character for Dr Who who has always done everything he can to save mankind. Yet here, other than saving some people and Clara, he has left a potentially devastating parasite remain loose on the Earth. That kind of left me not liking this story overall.


I didn't get the impression that they were all over Earth. The Doctor got hit by one of the parasites on some other planet, it found out about Clara from the Doctor's memory, and then spread out and grabbed the others.

I got the impression that everyone affected was in the same dream world, so when they all got out, the threat was over. Although I am curious why they went after Clara from the Doctor's memory, but then just picked random people after that.

I suppose an explanation could be that since the Doctor was alone on the planet where he encountered them, they scanned his memory to find another, and found Clara. But once they got to Earth, there were plenty of people, so they just went wherever was convenient.

When the Doctor left abruptly after they all thought they had gotten out of the dream the first time, my first thought was that he didn't care about them because he had figured out that they weren't real.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> Really? No, it's called sarcasm. it's what you get when you complain about something after 51 years of accepting it.


He's English you know? They don't use sarcasm there !!!!



BitbyBlit said:


> Then I saw the "Clara is old" scene, and thought, "Oh, she must have been leaving after this episode."
> 
> Then the end happened, and I wondered what the point of the previous scene had been..


To me it was pretty obvious, and you just answered your own question right there.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

*^ Young Doctor*









*^ Old Doctor *



Jagman_sl said:


> As for not being able to tell she was old, I think it was a combination of him wanting to be kind to his old friend, but also his inability to see her as more than just a companion. There were several instances this season where he was clearly oblivious to how Clara looked.


Also for a Time Lord a wrinkled face does not mean you are old. Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey

But I am not sure he was oblivious to how she looked during the season. The Doctor lies, and this regeneration is more caustic than most - perhaps he was refusing to indulge her vanity (and as a story point it was being made clear the relationship is not a romantic one) - which is why the act of kindness was especially poignant


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Finn from Misfits made a great elf. And Nick Frost was a good Santa. On the whole, the episode worked for me. It bothered me a bit that at the very end, after they're supposedly awake and boarding the TARDIS in the final scene, they still don't have wounds in the side of their heads, plus we see the tangerine. I get the latter is supposed to be a cute "Santa is really real" nod like all Christmas shows make, but in combination with the former it had me wondering if they're actually awake yet.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> Finn from Misfits made a great elf.


THAT'S where I remember him from! THANK you!!!


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

huh - didn't even recognize him


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Very very disappointing. Still have to go finish it; just couldn't stand it after about 20 minutes and paused it to go watch anything else. This is the most awful season of Doctor Who since the 2005 reboot began. By far. Maybe it's the writing. But while I can see signs that the current Doctor could be good, nothing he's done has really grabbed me this season at all. Bad writing. Bad acting. Whatever. But bad show, for sure.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Maybe already said but the other elf was Strax.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> ...
> I wish they could add Shona as a companion next season. She'd be fun.
> ...


Doctor Who: 10 Reasons Shona McCullough Should Be A New Companion
Is Shona the Magicans Apprentice? >
http://whatculture.com/tv/doctor-who-10-reasons-shona-mccullough-should-be-a-new-companion.php

(personally I think she would have been the new companion of Jenna Coleman hadn't signed a new contract but now she has that is the last we will see of Shona)


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Very very disappointing. Still have to go finish it; just couldn't stand it after about 20 minutes and paused it to go watch anything else. This is the most awful season of Doctor Who since the 2005 reboot began. By far. Maybe it's the writing. But while I can see signs that the current Doctor could be good, nothing he's done has really grabbed me this season at all. Bad writing. Bad acting. Whatever. But bad show, for sure.


If I didn't know better, I would have thought that another poster had hacked your account! 

I agree with you, although I'd pin the problems down to bad writing. I think Capaldi's got the potential to be good, but he doesn't have the material with which to work!



pgogborn said:


> Doctor Who: 10 Reasons Shona McCullough Should Be A New Companion
> Is Shona the Magicans Apprentice? >
> http://whatculture.com/tv/doctor-who-10-reasons-shona-mccullough-should-be-a-new-companion.php
> 
> (personally I think she would have been the new companion of Jenna Coleman hadn't signed a new contract but now she has *that is the last we will see of Shona*)


It's a time travel show. Never say never!


----------



## timr_42 (Oct 14, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Very very disappointing. Still have to go finish it; just couldn't stand it after about 20 minutes and paused it to go watch anything else. This is the most awful season of Doctor Who since the 2005 reboot began. By far. Maybe it's the writing. But while I can see signs that the current Doctor could be good, nothing he's done has really grabbed me this season at all. Bad writing. Bad acting. Whatever. But bad show, for sure.


Actually I got about 30 min in. Was very bored. Was not happy at all. Stopped watching and did something else. Complained to someone who hadn't see it how much i was disappointed.

Finshed the show last night and the second half was pretty good. All in all, I did enjoy the show, but the writing does have to get better.

...and for the record, T Baker was my first doctor, but P Davidson is my favorite.


----------



## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I enjoyed the whole episode. *shrug*

This was definately the best their chemistry has been.

So, was that really Danny with her in the dream? It seemed like it was him because he was independently thinking and all that.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

This has been my favorite so far. Yes, it was silly, but I kind of expect that from a Christmas episode. Love Nick Frost. And the rapport between the Doctor and Clara was the best it's been all season. If Capaldi were to finally get a really quality script, he could turn out to be my favorite reboot doctor.


----------



## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the second-best thing about it is it's so funny, it lets them off the hook for ripping off the Alien face-huggers. (Now, there's a lantern on that hook.)


Did anyone else notice that when they returned one of the other vctims, se was sitting at home with a "ToDo list" that started with:
1. Watch "Alien" DVD
2. Watch "The Thing from Another Planet" DVD

Another cute "self referential" bit!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NJChris said:


> So, was that really Danny with her in the dream? It seemed like it was him because he was independently thinking and all that.


My impression is that was Dream Danny, telling her what she already knew but had trouble admitting to herself.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

NJChris said:


> So, was that really Danny with her in the dream? It seemed like it was him because he was independently thinking and all that.


Danny was created by Clara's dreams, the Doctor said she had made him taller.

But the sneering way soldier Danny called the Doctor "sir" was a very accurate recreation of Danny (who gave up his original officer name, Rupert)


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LoadStar said:


> As one specific example... maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I didn't see a need for the entire "Clara is old" segment at all. It seemed to be just an excuse to get Jenna in some really, really bad aging makeup.


Actually, it was the whole point of the episode. Second chances. It was the Doctor's dream that he woke and saved Clara but 62 years later. Because at the time he was not going to see her again. When he DREAMED she was 62 years older and he missed her whole life, he regretted it. Waking up for the final time allowed him to really save her (she was in the dream but in 2014 not 2076) but, more importantly, to share more of her life by asking her to rejoin him. Up until that scene, Clara and the Doctor were going to go their separate ways.

It did bother me at first that Clara asked if she was old. I thought it was still a dream...hers. But then I remembered the dreams were linked. She only existed as an old woman because she was dreaming as well. The crabs didn't get her 62 years later. They got her now. She was 62 years older only in the shared dream.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

timr_42 said:


> ...and for the record, T Baker was my first doctor, but P Davidson is my favorite.


Then you should know that the actor is named Peter Davison, not Davidson.

Just saying...


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I wonder if the ending with Clara as old was the original ending and they modified it after the actress decided to stay on.


----------



## pteronaut (Dec 26, 2009)

But I liked the Tangerine in my sack of presents that my dad Santa left at the foot of my bed every Christmas morning, it was the first thing that I looked for, before ripping open the wrapping paper.


----------



## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Assuming that Dream Danny is the last we'll see of Danny, how do we account for the descendent of Clara and Danny that we met earlier this season as the stranded time traveler? Has the timeline been changed so he (the time traveler) is never born? We met him only because of his link to Clara, so he isn't just some random guy who looks a whole lot like Danny just through sheer coincidence.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Assuming, of course, that Clara's not pregnant...


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Assuming, of course, that Clara's not pregnant...


Or Clara doesn't travel in time and hook up with Danny's Grandfather.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Now that Clara is continuing to travel with the Doctor the line has been changed. 

Moffat lies more than the Doctor but for what it is worth his most recent explanation is:
###
I can think of several explanations, but the obvious one is that Orson comes from another branch of the family. He knows about Dannys heroic sacrifice, because Clara got in touch with the Pink family after the events of Death in Heaven (because you would, wouldnt you?), and told them what he did, and why. And she gave them the little soldier, as a keepsake of a great man and a great soldier  and because she knows the toy soldier has to remain in the Pink family line.

Now all that strikes me as pretty inevitable  thats what would have happened  but Im not saying its right. Nothing is actual till its in the show. 

Knowing how the season would end we were careful in Listen never to define exactly what the connection was.
###

Listening carefully:
###
Clara: Orson do me a favour, take my advice. When you get home, stay away from time travel.
Orson: It runs in the family.
Clara: What? Sorry, what do you mean, "runs in the family"?
Orson: Nothing, it's just... just silly stories. One of my grandparents...Well, great-grandparents
###


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> Now that Clara is continuing to travel with the Doctor the line has been changed.


How so?


----------



## timr_42 (Oct 14, 2001)

Church AV Guy said:


> Then you should know that the actor is named Peter Davison, not Davidson.
> 
> Just saying...


yes i know.

But since I can't spell most of the time....


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> How so?


If Jenna Coleman hadn't signed a new contract Clara being pregnant would have been a satisfactory exit line. Jenna has signed a new contract and the timeline has been changed.

I can't see this incarnation of the Doctor being tolerant of a companion in the TARDIS with morning sickness. Or attentively paying social calls to a ballooning earthbound Clara.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

We just recently had a "pregnant companion on the TARDIS" storyline, with Amy - even though we've got a new companion and a new Doctor, I don't get the feeling that Moffat intends to revisit that well again.


----------



## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

pgogborn said:


> If Jenna Coleman hadn't signed a new contract Clara being pregnant would have been a satisfactory exit line. Jenna has signed a new contract and the timeline has been changed.
> 
> I can't see this incarnation of the Doctor being tolerant of a companion in the TARDIS with morning sickness. Or attentively paying social calls to a ballooning earthbound Clara.


What you say is another Moffat lie (if it is an actual quote from him), is just him explaining how Orson Pink's full history doesn't need to actually be known for the events in "Listen" to be true and accurate in a world where Danny died before he and Clara could have a child.

They wouldn't have been vague about Orson if the timeline was possibly going to be changed because of Coleman's status with the show. The could have been very specific about him being Clara's and Danny's descendant and could just say the timeline changed, so that never happened. Instead, we were given a vague story that makes sense even if an original plan to show Orson's family tree never came to fruition.

I'm not necessarily saying that you're wrong about the timeline. I don't know and I don't care if it has been changed or not. What i'm saying is that none of your arguments for the timeline being changed have any merit.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

"The Doctor Lies" has become so boring. It's not even new, everyone lies. "Moffat Lies" is upcoming fast on being just as boring.


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> "The Doctor Lies" has become so boring. It's not even new, everyone lies. "Moffat Lies" is upcoming fast on being just as boring.


"Everyone lies" is not the same as "Rule One" according to River Song, Amy Pond and the Doctor (not the Master, Davros or other hostile witness):

River Song "Rule one: the Doctor lies" (The Big Bang)
River: "Rule one?" Amy: "The Doctor lies" (The Wedding of River Song)
The Doctor "Rule one: the Doctor lies" (Let's Kill Hitler)

Moffat says stuff such as:
"I lie repeatedly and continually. It's by far the best way of communicating".
Which maybe boring, but is also a health warning as to how Moffat operates.


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

The thing about Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey is...


...Moffat can make it up as he goes along!


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

The "Doctor Lies" was a plot point for a while but now it's boring to take everything he says and say "The Doctor lies". Every show runner of every story based show lies under your own definition.

Yawn !!!


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> The "Doctor Lies" *was a plot point for a while*, but now it's boring to take everything he says and say "The Doctor lies". Every show runner of every story based show lies under your own definition.
> 
> Yawn !!!


When I was a child one of the reasons why I loved Old Who was because the Doctor lied. In no other children's TV show that I knew of did adult's lie without there being a sanctimonious plot response.

The actor who plays Clara in a Q&A about the series that has just concluded said.
It's a theme throughout the series - lying and why we lie, lying to protect someone you love. It's this web of lies that she gets herself tangled it >
http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/extras/jenna-coleman-qa-claras-web-lies/


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

pgogborn said:


> Doctor Who: 10 Reasons Shona McCullough Should Be A New Companion
> Is Shona the Magicans Apprentice? >
> http://whatculture.com/tv/doctor-who-10-reasons-shona-mccullough-should-be-a-new-companion.php
> 
> (personally I think she would have been the new companion of Jenna Coleman hadn't signed a new contract but now she has that is the last we will see of Shona)


I do like her dance move, and I do think she could be a good companion.

Unfortunately, fan favorite guest stars do not usually make it to companion-status. These things are planned out way ahead by the producers and writers.. I think the only one they elevated was Donna.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

For the next companion, I'd love to see Carey Mulligan (Sally Sparrow.)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> For the next companion, I'd love to see Carey Mulligan (Sally Sparrow.)


I suspect she's too busy these days getting nominated for Academy Awards to be a television sidekick...


----------



## lambertman (Dec 21, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect she's too busy these days getting nominated for Academy Awards to be a television sidekick...


But the BBC could pay her thousand of pounds!


----------



## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

dtle said:


> Unfortunately, fan favorite guest stars do not usually make it to companion-status. These things are planned out way ahead by the producers and writers.. I think the only one they elevated was Donna.


Your know your Who.

Two things intrigued me. One basic requirement for a companion is to have what it takes go step through the door between safety and monster land - and that was Shona's big scene. Another requirement is to do it without a gun and Shona was the only polar base person not to use a gun.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect she's too busy these days getting nominated for Academy Awards to be a television sidekick...


See, I have no idea that she's done anything since Doctor Who.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Shona McCullough was in the really great movie Pride that I watched this last weekend. Highly recommended.


----------

