# Streaming to Additional Ancillary Devices Coming Soon?



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

TiVo filed a waiver request with the FCC today which contained a few surprising revelations.



> Consumers today can purchase retail TiVo DVRs and ancillary devices that support iOS and Android products, as well as TVs (using the TiVo Mini), and that soon will support additional ancillary devices that are popular with consumers.





> Expansion of this solution to additional devices in the home is on TiVos future product roadmap.





> TiVos solution transports all content from a set-top box to consumer IP devices, including game players and Smart TVs (with a TiVo Mini adapter).


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Good to see you around more again Sam.  Nice find.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Good to see you around more again Sam.  Nice find.


I never left! 

For TiVo to disclose this in a filing, it must be close.


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## consumedsoul (Jan 13, 2013)

sbiller said:


> TiVo filed a waiver request with the FCC today which contained a few surprising revelations.


Nice. Streaming everywhere! (fingers crossed)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Tivo demoed an early Roku presentation at CES last year, I think it is good for the ecosystem. I suspect it will not be as smooth or feature rich as a Mini, but great for secondary TV's in the home.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-01/tivo-coming-roku/


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

The DirecTV client for smart TVs (using the RVU protocol which only a few Sony and Samsung TVs yet support) does have some "challenges" when doing trick-play. It is also significantly slower than the native devices. But as Dave points out in the article, it looks more like it will use output from a Stream. That would mean the Stream would have to produce thumbnails to support Roku-style trick play. They say a major Stream software update is coming...this would sure qualify as "major."


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So future roadmap? What does that mean? 2017? 2018?


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> So future roadmap? What does that mean? 2017? 2018?


I suspect it is significantly closer then that. TiVo doesn't generally tip it hand that far out with these types of filings.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

The mention of a 'with a TiVo Mini adapter' is especially interesting to me. That suggests a piece of hardware. Possibly something that allows MPG2 support while still allowing the client device to handle the UI pieces?


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

sbiller said:


> For TiVo to disclose this in a filing, it must be close.


I would disagree based on how long it took (or is taking) to get android support out there. Especially in dealing with the government, you want to go in early and have all your ducks in a row for the fight that will ultimately ensue.

This could also just be a way to put a "placeholder" out there to give them options in the future.

At my old company (semiconductors) we'd get patents on a lot of things that never made it into silicon, just to be sure we had it on paper first.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bradleys said:


> I suspect it is significantly closer then that. TiVo doesn't generally tip it hand that far out with these types of filings.


Then 2016? Like in 2012 when the stream was released and Android support was coming soon. Here it is around two years later and Android Support still isn't out yet.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

There are a lot of examples when TiVo submitted filings and within a few months the product was released. Being ticked at TiVo because Apple and Google cannot agree on a streaming standard is your right, but doesn't necessarily relate to all things TiVo.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Then 2016? Like in 2012 when the stream was released and Android support was coming soon. Here it is around two years later and Android Support still isn't out yet.


I would equate "soon" to this year.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Then 2016? Like in 2012 when the stream was released and Android support was coming soon. Here it is around two years later and Android Support still isn't out yet.


My guess would be 2015. We know there's a major update coming to the Stream in 2015.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

morac said:


> My guess would be 2015. We know there's a major update coming to the Stream in 2015.


Good point. We know that the update is early 2015 for h.264.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Grakthis said:


> The mention of a 'with a TiVo Mini adapter' is especially interesting to me. That suggests a piece of hardware. Possibly something that allows MPG2 support while still allowing the client device to handle the UI pieces?


I think they are referring to the TiVo Mini, not a special adapter.

In most cases the decoder chip in these devices supports MPEG-2 as well as H.264. In some cases it's disabled for licensing reasons, but the hardware is capable of supporting it. So a special adapter just for MPEG-2 decoding doesn't make much sense. I'm betting that was just a poor choice of wording.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-09/tivo-to-support-popular-consumer-devices/


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Let's just get streaming working for Android, MPEG-4 streaming support, and get rid of the OOH proxy server first and go from there.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I think they are referring to the TiVo Mini, not a special adapter.
> 
> In most cases the decoder chip in these devices supports MPEG-2 as well as H.264. In some cases it's disabled for licensing reasons, but the hardware is capable of supporting it. So a special adapter just for MPEG-2 decoding doesn't make much sense. I'm betting that was just a poor choice of wording.


Huh. I thought there was a decoding issue with boxes like, for example, Amazon's, that would make the streaming experience of a hypothetical "TiVo App" more akin to the stream than a mini? I was thinking the addition of some hardware might enable more mini-like functionality from third party boxes.

Anyways, you may be right, but calling the mini an "adapter" is awkward, don't you think?


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

If there was going to be an MPEG adapter it'd be for MPEG-4 which I believe is backwards compatible with MPEG-2.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I think they are referring to the TiVo Mini, not a special adapter.


I read this to indicate that you will need a TiVo Mini Adapter (a new product) to work in cooperation with Smart TVs to transport content from a TiVo set-top box. The Mini itself already exists, I am thinking more a TiVo Mini USB Dongle - or a TiVo designed shoebox hanging off the back of your TV... 

I suspect the idea is to not have to deal with all the Smart TV app distribution mechanisms as well as providing a common, controllable security mechanism.

In any case I expect the functionality of these products to be less than what the Current Mini provides, more in the line of the TiVo IOS app. The upside is that these products should be a lot cheaper, possibly, dare I say, free.

And that is where I start to think these products bring huge value for TiVo. If you want the full TiVo experience you will need a base unit or a full Mini, if you just want access to your TiVo content then any number of ancillary apps are available. Maybe people will stop saying - "why am I paying a service fee for just guide data" 



> TiVo's solution transports all content from a set-top box to consumer IP devices, including game players and Smart TVs (with a TiVo Mini adapter). Such features and supported consumer devices will only continue to grow, while the number of MPEG2 devices will continue to dwindle and the availability of DLNA-compliant devices is unknown. TiVo also has developed products that transcode from MPEG2 to MPEG4 and has achieved CableLabs approval to securely stream content to consumer-owned devices, including iOS devices


How would I do this if I were TiVo, to create a very compelling ecosystem?

*TiVo Mini*
$200 - No service fee
Requires 4 Tuner or better Premiere or Roamio DVR
Full TiVo experience

*TiVo Mini Dongle*
$70 - No Service fee
Connects to TV's, similar to Google Chromecast
Requires Stream
Stream based functionality

*TiVo Apps*
Free
Roku, Amazon Fire, Apple TV, Xbox One
Requires Stream
Stream based functionality

*TiVo 2 Go*
Free
Browser Based UI
Requires Stream
Stream based functionality
OOH Streaming


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

An MPEG-2 stream could be as high as 20Mbps, which is not great when dealing with a wifi connected adapter. Plus TiVo fired their hardware design team, it's unlikely they've got some new hardware dongle in the works.

A better option for them would be to just make the App/Stream Chromecast aware, then you could just pick a show in the app and cast it to your $35 Chromecast. No need to design their own hardware and the API is open so it should require minimal effort to enable the app. (the Stream side might be more work, but I'm betting they're already doing that work to get Android functioning)

If they do make the App/Stream Chromecast aware then it's going to be a game changer for me. I'd buy a Chromecast for every TV in the house that doesn't have a Mini already.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> An MPEG-2 stream could be as high as 20Mbps, which is not great when dealing with a wifi connected adapter.


I agree, that is why I suggest it would need the TiVo Stream as a feed.



Dan203 said:


> Plus TiVo fired their hardware design team, it's unlikely they've got some new hardware dongle in the works.


I am not buying that at all, they let go a 5 designers, they did not leave the hardware business - this could easily be done in house with contract work or outsourced.



Dan203 said:


> A better option for them would be to just make the App/Stream Chromecast aware, then you could just pick a show in the app and cast it to your $35 Chromecast. No need to design their own hardware and the API is open so it should require minimal effort to enable the app. (the Stream side might be more work, but I'm betting they're already doing that work to get Android functioning)
> 
> If they do make the App/Stream Chromecast aware then it's going to be a game changer for me. I'd buy a Chromecast for every TV in the house that doesn't have a Mini already.


Interesting thought on just going with Chromecast integration. Since this is just conjecture it is just as good as my WAG! 

One thing, I sure hope people do not think they are going to get full mini functionality in these ancillary applications - I suspect they will be highly disappointed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is some speculation that TiVo had to add MPEG-Dash support to the Stream for the Android app to work. If that's true then adding Chromecast support would be almost trivial. The Chromecast API is open and it supports MPEG-Dash out of the box. It's basically as simple as passing a URL over to the Chromecast.

Another fun idea is that with Dash support we could also stream to a browser on a PC. Most modern browsers have Dash support built in, so if the stream supports a basic URL format we can likely figure it out and stream the same thing to a PC browser.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> There is some speculation that TiVo had to add MPEG-Dash support to the Stream for the Android app to work. If that's true then adding Chromecast support would be almost trivial. The Chromecast API is open and it supports MPEG-Dash out of the box. It's basically as simple as passing a URL over to the Chromecast.
> 
> ................


So then 12 months to add Chromecast support?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Probably.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> If they do make the App/Stream Chromecast aware then it's going to be a game changer for me. I'd buy a Chromecast for every TV in the house that doesn't have a Mini already.


Which is probably exactly what TiVo _doesn't_ want when they could be making money off you with the Mini and it's subscription.


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## ilovedvrs (Oct 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> So then 12 months to add Chromecast support?


In 12 months from now I plan to have the new Google TVs with Chromecast functions built in... Tivo is losing the race..


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

JWhites said:


> Which is probably exactly what TiVo _doesn't_ want when they could be making money off you with the Mini and it's subscription.


Rumor has it that the Mini subscription is going away...

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-08/tivo-to-drop-mini-service-fees/


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bradleys said:


> There are a lot of examples when TiVo submitted filings and within a few months the product was released. Being ticked at TiVo because Apple and Google cannot agree on a streaming standard is your right, but doesn't necessarily relate to all things TiVo.


Man, you're a real Tivo apologist here. We'll all have to disagree with you on why Android streaming is so late, because none of us know the real deal.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ilovedvrs said:


> In 12 months from now I plan to have the new Google TVs with Chromecast functions built in... Tivo is losing the race..


I still have a bad taste from the previous Google TVs. Those were terrible.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> Another fun idea is that with Dash support we could also stream to a browser on a PC. Most modern browsers have Dash support built in, so if the stream supports a basic URL format we can likely figure it out and stream the same thing to a PC browser.


Yes please. This has been requested since the beginning of the Tivo Stream rollout. Everyone has a browser which would open up Tivo's usefulness to near 100% of people. Every computer you have could potentially access the content. Then it wouldn't matter if the Android was crap. You could just stream via Chrome browser and be done with it.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

With a house full of apple TVs for airplay (music) I'd be real happy to see an apple TV with a tivo app, making it a mini.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

I wonder how fast the 12 client limit would fill up. Also let's not forget the three client consecutive stream limit per DVR.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Austin Bike said:


> With a house full of apple TVs for airplay (music) I'd be real happy to see an apple TV with a tivo app, making it a mini.


I have made this point several times, but I think it is an important consideration.

I do not think the intention of these ancillary apps is to duplicate the functionality of the Mini, I think they would more target the functionality of what is currently seen on the IOS and Android Apps.

That might be a minor point, but I think it is important. The Mini extends the full TiVo experience with Live TV and all the app integration. The IOS / Android apps are not targeted to live TV and when you exclude the "remote control" functionality - they are really just designed to access current content.

Remember, the Mini is directly communicating with the parent TiVo, we assume these ancillary apps will be communicating with the TiVo Stream with the associated functionality.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

JWhites said:


> I wonder how fast the 12 client limit would fill up. Also let's not forget the three client consecutive stream limit per DVR.


Considering I've only ever streamed from 2 devices and the client number currently shows 5, probably not long. Anyone knows what happens when the limit is hit?


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

morac said:


> Considering I've only ever streamed from 2 devices and the client number currently shows 5, probably not long. Anyone knows what happens when the limit is hit?


From what I've read around this forum a message would pop up saying the limit was reached and gives the option to reset the count but on a 30 day rotation.


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