# Tivo alternatives



## Jetspeedz (Dec 20, 2014)

Maybe not the right audience, but I'm sure I'm not the only frustrated customer by tivo's antics and buggy software releases. 

What other Tivo alternatives are there if any besides using the cable companies provided DVR units?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

A few, but you need to verify they accept cable cards -> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hdtv-recorders/


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## Jetspeedz (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks a lot Joe looking at that thread now.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

I've tried just about all the alternatives. Tivo is still the least of all evils. If you're not willing to go with a cloud DVR OTT service like PS Vue, DirecTV NOW, Youtube TV, etc., then you really have no other option beside cobbling together an already obsolete Windows Media Center system. All other alternatives are far worse. The first time you hook up an old DVD/HDD recorder and schedule your recordings VCR timer style, synchronize playback and watch the results in glorious SD, you'll be happy to have your buggy Tivo back. Silicon Dust COULD give Tivo a run for their money if they had the will, but they don't. Best you can do with their DVR software is record unprotected content.

I'm going to try to replace some of my Tivos with Channel Master Stream+. It's OTA only, but since it runs Android TV, all my streaming services are more tightly integrated. Tivo can't run DirecTV NOW (or any other OTT service for that matter), but Stream+ can run them all AND give me a subscription free DVR and dual OTA tuners.

I recommend you hold your nose and keep what you've got.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

If there was a replacement for TiVo that was not the cable co DVR we would have talked about it many times, TiVo retail is a real small part of the TiVo business, as of now, most people who are or want to be cable co. customers who never had a TiVo would almost never go out and purchase a TiVo today, most of us who use TiVo today started many years ago, and don't want to give TiVo up. As an example I have a Comcast triple play package that cost me $159/month + a lot of other fees that if I want cable I can't do anything about, a new cable card Bolt Plus with lifetime costs about $900 or so, and for that investment I save $2.50/month, so the ROI is nothing to brag about, how many people would invest $900 to get back $30/year. If you home is big and you use many Minis the return is much better, the best is for 6 rooms with each having a HDTV, 1 Bolt Plus and 5 Minis costing you about $1600 with a return of about $600 per year, a very good ROI.


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## Jetspeedz (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks for the info guys


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## bjstick (Jan 30, 2018)

Windows Media Center is the only real alternative.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

Saw this at the last couple of CEDIA shows. If you have a few thousand dollars it's killer. Automated commercial skip, ability to *record* streamed programming, uses a cable card. Has mini clients. Etc. Watch the video.

The New Home Media Experience


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## fredi (Apr 1, 2017)

Now why can't TiVo *record* streamed programming? It's the next big thing


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I don't care how much it costs, *shut up and take my money*!

Seriously, I wonder how they resolve the DRM issues. They are ripping Blu Rays, skipping commercials and saving cable streams; all of those things have been roadblocks before and have either been forbidden or required serious compromises. I eagerly await developments.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

fredi said:


> Now why can't TiVo *record* streamed programming? It's the next big thing


Because it is legally and technically protected content that can't have its content stream extracted and recorded.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

fredi said:


> Now why can't TiVo *record* streamed programming? It's the next big thing


The simple answer is because the streaming services will not allow it.

With QAM cable (and OTA) TiVo develops & is in control of the UI and therefor the video signal. With streaming services the streaming service develops the app and retains control of the apps UI and the video signal. The only reason TiVo can control the UI and therefor the video signal with QAM cable is because of cable cards which were a result of a Government mandate. There is no such Government mandate for streaming services or IPTV cable providers or Satellite cable providers, so TiVo has no way to do anything with those services and is the reason why many streaming services are missing from TiVos.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

DigitalDawn said:


> Saw this at the last couple of CEDIA shows. If you have a few thousand dollars it's killer. Automated commercial skip, ability to *record* streamed programming, uses a cable card. Has mini clients. Etc. Watch the video.
> 
> The New Home Media Experience


Just vaporware at the moment. But I will be watching for all the lawsuits!

I am very interested in what app platform this is using... They do not say what streaming services they have partnerships with. I am almost wondering if they are trying to use desktop version with a skin over the top?

Netflix, hulu, et al with LOVE THAT!

- It rips DVD's and stores them to the DVR
- It has a mini system that they suggest will work outside the home
- Commercial Skipping while still recording content

This was supposed to be ready last year and it has been delayed. So, of course of a few questions - fist of all, do they have cable labs certification?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Re: Modulus...


ej42137 said:


> I wonder how they resolve the DRM issues. They are ripping Blu Rays, skipping commercials and saving cable streams; all of those things have been roadblocks before and have either been forbidden or required serious compromises. I eagerly await developments.


No tweets since early September. Tough to imagine them/it surviving legal challenges, let alone getting over the tech hurdles.

Re: SiliconDust...


mdavej said:


> Silicon Dust COULD give Tivo a run for their money if they had the will, but they don't. Best you can do with their DVR software is record unprotected content.


Recording protected content has been on the to-do for ages. Are they having too much difficulty with just getting DVR features generally working, sapping resources, or is protected content just too difficult?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

bradleys said:


> It also doesn't have a distributed viewing strategy like the Mini.


It's supposed to:

*Share Your Media*
Use our Modulus Mini unit to enjoy your content in any room in the house - even at a college dorm room or vacation home​


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

I watched the Modulus video on their site. Interesting box but I have to say that, to me, it already feels kinda outdated. For one, with its ingestion and storage of content from physical discs. Are there that many home theater geeks out there willing to shell out big bucks for this kind of box who haven't already embraced something like a Plex Media Server to store their ripped DVDs, CDs, etc? And the box apparently uses CableCARD (per post 8 above), a technology that is slowly fading away (an issue we've discussed to death here on multiple threads). Yes, Modulus offers some popular streaming apps (and even "remembers your login info for each service" -- gosh!) but I wonder how great the streaming experience is on this box versus, say, an Apple TV 4K or Nvidia Shield TV. The only innovation, I imagine, that Modulus is really bringing to the table regarding streaming is the supposed option to record those streams from Netflix, Hulu, etc. (which are already available on-demand, so why do I need to deal with the hassle of recording them?). And I would certainly expect that those streaming services would sue this little start-up into the ground if this product ever sees the light of day.

So, yeah, to me Modulus looks like something that could've been big if it had launched back in 2010-12. But now it looks like it's aiming at an outdated mark. Caavo, to me, seems like a solution more in tune with where things are right now.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Jetspeedz said:


> Maybe not the right audience, but I'm sure I'm not the only frustrated customer by tivo's antics and buggy software releases.
> 
> What other Tivo alternatives are there if any besides using the cable companies provided DVR units?


What Tivo do you have? I'm happy with my Roamio with what I guess they call gen 3 software.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> The simple answer is because the streaming services will not allow it.
> 
> With QAM cable (and OTA) TiVo develops & is in control of the UI and therefor the video signal. With streaming services the streaming service develops the app and retains control of the apps UI and the video signal. The only reason TiVo can control the UI and therefor the video signal with QAM cable is because of cable cards which were a result of a Government mandate. There is no such Government mandate for streaming services or IPTV cable providers or Satellite cable providers, so TiVo has no way to do anything with those services and is the reason why many streaming services are missing from TiVos.


I know that I don't understand the engineering. Having said that:

But the streaming video signal needs to exit the TiVo box on the way to the TV, right? When it gets to that point, why can't a TiVo (or other) box intercept and re-route the signal and make a U.S. Supreme Court Sony Betamax copyright exception fair use personal copy?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I know that I don't understand the engineering. Having said that:
> 
> But the streaming video signal needs to exit the TiVo box on the way to the TV, right? When it gets to that point, why can't a TiVo (or other) box intercept and re-route the signal and make a U.S. Supreme Court Sony Betamax copyright exception fair use personal copy?


Well, if the signal is exiting the box via HDMI, doesn't the HDCP copyright protection feature built into HDMI prevent that from happening? Now, if the signal were exiting the box via component video rather than HDMI, then maybe.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Well, if the signal is exiting the box via HDMI, doesn't the HDCP copyright protection feature built into HDMI prevent that from happening? Now, if the signal were exiting the box via component video rather than HDMI, then maybe.


Ah, and so it's the HDMI cable and standard and, presumably, patent protection for that? But couldn't this be done just upstream of that (really what I was getting at)? Of course, I'm wrong, but I just don't follow.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> Ah, and so it's the HDMI cable and standard and, presumably, patent protection for that? But couldn't this be done just upstream of that (really what I was getting at)? Of course, I'm wrong, but I just don't follow.


Well, if the recording of the stream is happening INSIDE the box that has the app from Netflix/Hulu/etc., then wouldn't the app provider just yank their app from said box? I'm sure they have contracts in place that preclude device makers/OS platforms from allowing that kind of behavior with their apps. There's probably also some kind of DRM software (e.g. Widevine) that the app providers require to be present in the box which would preclude recording the stream.

The exception seems to be streams delivered not through dedicated apps but through web sites in a third-party browser. I believe that's how PlayOn (an "SVR" or streaming video recorder) works.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Well, if the recording of the stream is happening INSIDE the box that has the app from Netflix/Hulu/etc., then wouldn't the app provider just yank their app from said box? I'm sure they have contracts in place that preclude device makers/OS platforms from allowing that kind of behavior with their apps. There's probably also some kind of DRM software (e.g. Widevine) that the app providers require to be present in the box which would preclude recording the stream.
> 
> The exception seems to be streams delivered not through dedicated apps but through web sites in a third-party browser. I believe that's how PlayOn (an "SVR" or streaming video recorder) works.


My guess is that this device has layered an application on top of a linux desktop OS like Ubuntu. Simply an environment that allows them to use a full desktop browser - that way they can avoid needing to get an app developed and certified by the content providers.

They could then use an RSS feed from the service provider to reference the streaming services content into their own presentation. Once the user selects a video to watch, they launch it on a browser playing in the background and use a video capture scheme to simply buffer it into their own player. And for future proofing, this could be done MSO IP apps as well.

It would be awesome way of consolidating content and will majorly piss off content providers...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Looking at the legality of a similar software services like Playon I am convinced this is the kind of scheme they are using:

_PlayOn Cloud lets you record and download videos from streaming services to your iPhone
The streaming service providers' terms of service explicitly prohibit this behavior. For example, Netflix says that by using its service, you agree not to archive, download, reproduce, or distribute its videos. Hulu makes it clear that you should not use "any device, software, internet site, web-based service or other means" to do the same.

The others follow suit, with similar language.

That being said, recording the streams is technically possible, and copyright law has left some wiggle room for services like PlayOn to exist.

The way the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) puts it, breaking or circumventing copy protection mechanisms is what's illegal. And PlayOn hasn't been circumventing DRM or accessing the encrypted stream - it uses screen capturing technology instead. This keeps it on the legal side by following the letter of the law, if not the spirit._

I would expect to see them sued, but it is an interesting approach and could be very seamless. But the risk is that you will pay a lot of money for the device and the service providers will cancel your account for breaking TOS. (Assuming they can detect you are using this platform)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

bradleys said:


> My guess is that this device has layered an application on top of a linux desktop OS like Ubuntu. Simply an environment that allows them to use a full desktop browser - that way they can avoid needing to get an app developed and certified by the content providers.


Yep, I think you're right. Of course, Netflix doesn't provide their best streams (4K and HDR) to web browsers other than Microsoft Edge (which runs on Windows PCs with built-in DRM, I think), so top-quality video would be a no-go. And any web browser they support on Linux (Chrome, Firefox, Opera) tops out at only 720p for Netflix. So, no thanks.

Netflix system requirements for HTML5 Player and Silverlight


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

There were a number of things I noticed not mentioned (or I missed) in the one video I watched, including 4K, mobile access and multi-user support (i.e. user profiles).

Oh well, we'll know soon enough, per the product page:

_*Modulus will be available in April 2018.*_​


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I could be very cool - eliminating the DRM hurdle by screen capturing could allow them to keep everything under a single UI. No bouncing around, no launching other apps.

That said, I would be a little hesitant to throw out big money on something that stands on a legal knife edge. It wouldn't be the first company to be sued out of existence by content owners! If they stay small and under the radar, they can likely survive. If they get popular, I wouldn't expect them to be around very long.

Being able to win the isn't the question, being able to sustain multiple law suits is the issue for a company like this.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> There were a number of things I noticed not mentioned (or I missed) in the one video I watched, including 4K, mobile access and multi-user support (i.e. user profiles).
> 
> Oh well, we'll know soon enough, per the product page:
> 
> _*Modulus will be available in April 2018.*_​


Oh, yes, any day now.


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

bradleys said:


> I could be very cool - eliminating the DRM hurdle by screen capturing could allow them to keep everything under a single UI. No bouncing around, no launching other apps.


This is what I would love to see. Let TiVo handle the search/discovery/playlists (OnePass and My Shows), authenticate us onto the OTT provider, and have the provider stream the bits of the TV episode or movie directly to TiVo's native video window. I don't ever want to browse Amazon, Netflix, and Hulu via their apps - I just want the content. Even if the apps were spectacular and loaded instantly, I still don't really want to use them.

This will never happen - for both technical and business/competitive reasons. (And the roadblocks would primarily be on the OTT provider side, on both fronts. I'm sure TiVo would implement this if they were allowed to.)


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mrizzo80 said:


> This is what I would love to see. Let TiVo handle the search/discovery/playlists (OnePass and My Shows), authenticate us onto the OTT provider, and have the provider stream the bits of the TV episode or movie directly to TiVo's native video window. I don't ever want to browse Amazon, Netflix, and Hulu via their apps - I just want the content. Even if the apps were spectacular and loaded instantly, I still don't really want to use them.
> 
> This will never happen - for both technical and business/competitive reasons. (And the roadblocks would primarily be on the OTT provider side, on both fronts. I'm sure TiVo would implement this if they were allowed to.)


Technically it isn't that big of a lift - but it is against the terms of service for the content providers. They would flip their lids


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mrizzo80 said:


> This is what I would love to see. Let TiVo handle the search/discovery/playlists (OnePass and My Shows), authenticate us onto the OTT provider, and have the provider stream the bits of the TV episode or movie directly to TiVo's native video window.


TiVo should be putting a LOT more focus on doing this with their mobile app, moving away from strict focus on their DVRs and abstracting the app -- or an enhanced version of it -- in order to leverage their data and make it available to anyone who creates an account, free or price TBD. TiVo hardware not required.

Additional benefits could be personalized presentation of DVR content (show lists, watch progress, etc.); PLEX data integration; personalized app credentials and integrated, unified watch lists; and smart remote integration to facilitate playback.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> Recording protected content has been on the to-do for ages. Are they having too much difficulty with just getting DVR features generally working, sapping resources, or is protected content just too difficult?


The CEO has basically said they're too terrified to do it. If they get the encryption wrong and someone cracks it, they could get fined hundreds of millions of dollars, far more than their small company is worth. So don't look for that happening anytime soon, if at all.


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## DoninDEN (May 16, 2016)

Any new updates to this? I’m finding I can no longer watch shows on Amazon because I receive the Problem Occurred message. I like TiVo, but it’s no good if it wont work.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

DoninDEN said:


> Any new updates to this? I'm finding I can no longer watch shows on Amazon because I receive the Problem Occurred message. I like TiVo, but it's no good if it wont work.


If that was Prime I will gladly try to duplicate the problem if you specify the content. TE3 or TE4?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> If that was Prime I will gladly try to duplicate the problem if you specify the content. TE3 or TE4?


And on what hardware?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

DoninDEN said:


> Any new updates to this? I'm finding I can no longer watch shows on Amazon because I receive the Problem Occurred message. I like TiVo, but it's no good if it wont work.


So you want a Tivo alternative that can play Amazon? That's easy. Literally everything else can do that. Why not hang on to Tivo for its DVR capabilities and use a far superior streaming device for streaming?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> And on what hardware?


Roamio & Mini.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mdavej said:


> So you want a Tivo alternative that can play Amazon? That's easy. Literally everything else can do that. *Why not hang on to Tivo for its DVR capabilities and use a far superior streaming device for streaming?*


Doesn't that seem to be an often recommendation here? (Albeit, and perhaps especially for those with lesser streaming needs, a TiVo box may be sufficient.)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Roamio & Mini.


Heh, sorry, should've directed that reply towards Denver.


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