# Tivo Premiere - No Cable Card? Just Analog?



## woodrufs

Hello,
I am just curious if the Tivo would allow me to run a coaxial directly from my wall into it and pick up stations? At my apartment for school it is our only option. Will the Tivo still pick up all the program guide information that way? Or will it only pick up that information with a Cablecard? Is there an option on the Tivo where I can plug in my zip code and then it will download my program guide information through the internet? 

I am so confused... On their website it has an option where I can plug in my zip and it pulls the guide information... 

Any ideas?

Thanks.


----------



## t1voproof

It will work with analog cable (no box). Guided setup has that option.


----------



## MICHAELSD

If you have a HDTV, buy a HD-capable over-the-air antenna. You'll get a few HD channels, which is far superior to none over analog.


----------



## wmcbrine

The guide information is always delivered by TiVo over the Internet (or phone line, if you wanna be old school), regardless of your service type or the presence or absence of a CableCard. The guide data that cable companies supply to their digital set-top boxes is not used by the TiVo, nor does it use OTA PSIP guide data.

Analog cable and digital and analog OTA will work fine without a CableCard, with full guide data. You can have both inputs working at once, too, so that you can get HD OTA and basic analog cable together, and they've seamlessly integrated. But digital cable channels need a CableCard to be useful.

The CableCard is used for decryption and mapping of digital cable channels, not for guide data.


----------



## RonH

Good ol' Google, delivered me right to the thread and answer I was looking for.

A few years back I bought (later returned) a Series 3 because I wanted to record OTA. Trouble was, unless I had a cable card, there was no way to map the scanned OTA channels to the guide. It's been 2 years since I was here but I remember discussions about that. The only solution was to get a cable card - which I did not want to do.

It sounds like this Premier unit along with just my attic antenna will give me full program guide functionality to record SD/HD OTA. Your basic HD DVR with all the internet stuff thrown in for fun. Is this true?

*update*

Further reading has refreshed my memory, it was Clear QAM that I could not record from, due to the lack of program guide data. Apparently this is still the case. But, 2 years ago I didn't have an attic antenna delivering local HD stations. Now that I have that, the Premier would at least give me an HD DVR to record locals.


----------



## Arcady

You never needed a cablecard to get OTA programming or guide data. A cablecard is only needed with digital cable.


----------



## crxssi

RonH said:


> Further reading has refreshed my memory, it was Clear QAM that I could not record from, due to the lack of program guide data. Apparently this is still the case. But, 2 years ago I didn't have an attic antenna delivering local HD stations. Now that I have that, the Premier would at least give me an HD DVR to record locals.


And nowadays there are fewer and fewer clear QAM left on any cable stations, with the exception of locals, which can be obtained free from an antenna.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Is there an option to tell it you want the Qam channels? Mine did a scan and found 300+ channels but did not find any of the hd networks that the Qam tuner in my tv found.


----------



## aaronwt

I WANT MORE said:


> Is there an option to tell it you want the Qam channels? Mine did a scan and found 300+ channels but did not find any of the hd networks that the Qam tuner in my tv found.


You need a cable card for digital cable with TiVo.


----------



## I WANT MORE

aaronwt said:


> You need a cable card for digital cable with TiVo.


Thanks. Have one coming on Wed. Just hope I can get the free hd networks. I use cable as a backup. I have D* as my primary provider. :up:


----------



## WebHobbit

I still think in the coming next couple of years we will see CATV companies drop all analog channels to make room for more digital/HD. Then everyone will be tied to their STB or a cable carded TiVo.


----------



## JimboG

WebHobbit said:


> I still think in the coming next couple of years we will see CATV companies drop all analog channels to make room for more digital/HD. Then everyone will be tied to their STB or a cable carded TiVo.


Quite true.

On a typical cable system, analog channels take up 70-80% of available bandwidth. This is a tremendously inefficient use of bandwidth just to ensure that granny can watch game shows and daytime television without the need for a set top box. For each analog channel, you could get 2 channels of MPEG-2 HD programming with no additional compression added. You also could get a few more channels of near-HD programming if you used MPEG-4, statistical multiplexing, switched digital video, or the variety of other tricks available to a bit-stingy cable operator.

Sure, granny might not want a set top box, but what are her alternatives? The satellite companies require a set top box. U-Verse and Fios require a set top box. Tivo and the digital TV convertor boxes are set top boxes. Granny's only choices are to use the integrated digital TV tuner in her new flat panel TV with an over the air antenna or with clear QAM.


----------



## crxssi

JimboG said:


> Granny's only choices are to use the integrated digital TV tuner in her new flat panel TV with an over the air antenna or with clear QAM.


Clear QAM will be about as rare as analog by then.


----------



## RonH

I WANT MORE said:


> I use cable as a backup. I have D* as my primary provider. :up:


Same here. Others are right, not much on clear QAM here other than the locals. That's what I wanted to record 2 years ago on the Series 3. Now that I have the amplified antenna in the attic, I'm set.

Although $900 is kind of pricey for a DVR to record locals. Granted I want the big hard drive and I'm not using the full potential of the box. But then I paid as much for a VCR more than once in my day


----------



## crxssi

RonH said:


> Although $900 is kind of pricey for a DVR to record locals


Yeah, so it is a good thing the TiVo Premiere is only around $200!
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD65216...DBM2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1288499068&sr=8-4


----------



## I WANT MORE

aaronwt said:


> You need a cable card for digital cable with TiVo.





I WANT MORE said:


> Is there an option to tell it you want the Qam channels? Mine did a scan and found 300+ channels but did not find any of the hd networks that the Qam tuner in my tv found.


So I got my cable card installed. When I try to do a channel scan it tells me that there is not need to do a scan, the cable card has set up the channels. The Qam channels are not there. How do I scan for them?


----------



## socrplyr

I WANT MORE said:


> So I got my cable card installed. When I try to do a channel scan it tells me that there is not need to do a scan, the cable card has set up the channels. The Qam channels are not there. How do I scan for them?


If your cablecard is set up right, they are there. They are just mapped to the cable channel number. Just look at your cable company's digital lineup.


----------



## I WANT MORE

socrplyr said:


> If your cablecard is set up right, they are there. They are just mapped to the cable channel number. Just look at your cable company's digital lineup.


Thanks again.


----------



## tbliss1435

Purchased a tivo premier 150 hours recording time AND i love it. i'm so happy. i no longer suscribe to cable and just bring in my local channels with a flat panel antennae. 
hd menu is AWESOME. i find the tivo software easy to use. 
- was worth the $$$.


----------



## Smiley88

I was reading the FCC requires that households be able to receive Digital channels.That's one thing the Cable companies aren't allowed to have a monopoly over.Let me say I am new to this site.I had to let go of Direct tv.Oh how I miss the DVR,It was so reliable.
I am looking into a Tivo as a replacement.I am settled on the Tivo Premier.I would love to go Analog.I read I could use the internet connection for the Tivo Premier.
I know I will need a roof antenna.An indoor Antenna doesn't pick up the signals in my surroundings.I like the way the Tivo sounds.


----------



## gamo62

woodrufs said:


> Hello,
> I am just curious if the Tivo would allow me to run a coaxial directly from my wall into it and pick up stations? At my apartment for school it is our only option. Will the Tivo still pick up all the program guide information that way? Or will it only pick up that information with a Cablecard? Is there an option on the Tivo where I can plug in my zip code and then it will download my program guide information through the internet?
> 
> I am so confused... On their website it has an option where I can plug in my zip and it pulls the guide information...
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks.


As long as it is the Premiere /XL and NOT the XL4/Elite. The latter two have 4 Digital Tuners, and no OTA tuner.


----------



## agredon

RonH said:


> Same here. Others are right, not much on clear QAM here other than the locals. That's what I wanted to record 2 years ago on the Series 3. Now that I have the amplified antenna in the attic, I'm set.
> 
> Although $900 is kind of pricey for a DVR to record locals. Granted I want the big hard drive and I'm not using the full potential of the box. But then I paid as much for a VCR more than once in my day


I get locals, C-SPAN, and one or two shopping channels...that's it. Comcast encrypts everything else.


----------



## jcthorne

gamo62 said:


> As long as it is the Premiere /XL and NOT the XL4/Elite. The latter two have 4 Digital Tuners, and no OTA tuner.


The XL4 and Elite have 4 Digital Cable tuners and no OTA.

The Premiere has 2 OTA tuners for both analog and digital. and 2 CATV, analog and digital.

Almost all OTA tv is now digital. CATV is still mixed but the XL4 and Elite only tune the digital versions.


----------



## jrmstr33

Any update on the QAM situation along with S3 and Premiere units? I have some rooms in my house that don't get good antenna reception and would love the guide data if at all possible. For now, I've been using the manual record feature. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## mattack

No.. you need a cable card regardless..


----------



## wmcbrine

Recently, some people have found that an unsubscribed CableCard off eBay (maybe not even from Fios originally) is sufficient for mapping the clear QAMs. But I can't personally vouch for this.


----------



## Bigg

So the OP was asking about a college dorm type of system. At my school, like many others, they still use a primarily analog system, with a few locals and RSNs in Clear QAM HD. They can't do ESPN, as ESPN is ridiculous about copy protection and won't let them Clear QAM it. It's a pure one-way system. There's no need for internet or telephone, since those are separate systems, and they don't have STB's, so there's no return path there. It's something like a 550mhz or 650mhz system, but they can push like 80+ analogs, since there's almost nothing else on there (a coupe of QAM's for HD locals).

In a situation like this, TiVo wouldn't be able to map with Clear QAM locals/RSNs, although it would be able to record the analog channels.


----------



## Boneless

wmcbrine said:


> Recently, some people have found that an unsubscribed CableCard off eBay (maybe not even from Fios originally) is sufficient for mapping the clear QAMs. But I can't personally vouch for this.


Sorry to revive a dead thread, but which forum or search can I find more about this? I have clear QAM interestingly enough through my cable coax and can map it on my tivo3 with the analog stations. Since the analogs have guide data I've been using it to make manual recordings off the QAM HD channels. Would love to make the data available on the tivo for those if possible.


----------



## wmcbrine

wmcbrine said:


> Recently, some people have found that an unsubscribed CableCard off eBay (maybe not even from Fios originally) is sufficient for mapping the clear QAMs. But I can't personally vouch for this.


I now *can* personally vouch for this. Thanks to a reminder from someone here -- which I can't find now; my apologies -- I ordered a card off eBay for my old Series 3. ($2.99, including shipping! Less than a month's rent on a CableCard through Fios.) It works.

Also, a single card is sufficient for mapping clear QAMs for both tuners, even on an OLED Series 3. _However_, the guided setup process decides between single-tuner and dual-tuner mode based on how many cards are present. So, you need two cards for a proper setup, but can then remove one. (I've ordered a second card.) If you can skip guided setup (because, unlike me, you never re-ran it to select OTA-only mode after returning your old rented cards), then one card should be enough.

This looks like a real answer to the perennial requests for clear QAM support that we see here. I'd bet that it will work for later models as well, but I haven't tested that. It's just too bad that we didn't find out about it sooner.


----------



## Dan203

If you run GS with no card I think it has an options for "I will get cards later" which should allow you to set it up with both tuners without needing a second card.


----------



## JimG19

wmcbrine said:


> I now *can* personally vouch for this. Thanks to a reminder from someone here -- which I can't find now; my apologies -- I ordered a card off eBay for my old Series 3. ($2.99, including shipping! Less than a month's rent on a CableCard through Fios.) It works.
> 
> Also, a single card is sufficient for mapping clear QAMs for both tuners, even on an OLED Series 3. _However_, the guided setup process decides between single-tuner and dual-tuner mode based on how many cards are present. So, you need two cards for a proper setup, but can then remove one. (I've ordered a second card.) If you can skip guided setup (because, unlike me, you never re-ran it to select OTA-only mode after returning your old rented cards), then one card should be enough.
> 
> This looks like a real answer to the perennial requests for clear QAM support that we see here. I'd bet that it will work for later models as well, but I haven't tested that. It's just too bad that we didn't find out about it sooner.


I tried but it seemed to get stuck on acquiring channel information screen. How long did it take to map the channels once you inserted the card?


----------



## philhu

I think McBrine is on FIOS. I am too.

What does this buy you? Does it map the FIOS Clear QAM to the real channels and get you guide data for the Clear QAM?

McBrine, what cards on ebay did you buy? Do you have a listing so I can see what you bought and find similar ones?


----------



## wmcbrine

JimG19 said:


> I tried but it seemed to get stuck on acquiring channel information screen. How long did it take to map the channels once you inserted the card?


Literally no time -- the channels were mapped by the time it took me to check.



philhu said:


> What does this buy you? Does it map the FIOS Clear QAM to the real channels and get you guide data for the Clear QAM?


Yes.

To clarify, you get guide data for all channels -- it's up to you to figure out which ones are in the clear, and edit the channel list accordingly. (For me, that's SD locals and PEGs (1-49), HD locals (500-549), broadcast subchannels (high 400s), and The Weather Channel, SD only (119). I haven't found anything else yet.)



> _McBrine, what cards on ebay did you buy? Do you have a listing so I can see what you bought and find similar ones?_


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-Go...ti-Stream-Cable-Card-Mcard-TIVO-/370904327136

It's the first thing that comes up if I search for "cablecard".


----------



## Dan203

My cable company just started simulcasting and in the process started encrypting everything except the local channel and a few basic cable channels. I know this because my Sister had a TiVo with a CableCARD that we never got properly authorized. Originally it only effected the Premium channels so she didn't really care. A few weeks ago she suddenly lost access to pretty much everything. As expected phone support was no help getting the card properly paired so we had to wait for a tech to come over so he could call into his special line and get it paired properly.


----------



## wmcbrine

I put the second card in, and immediately had two tuners, no new GS required. Now I'm wondering what will happen if I take it out again...


----------



## philhu

wmcbrine said:


> Literally no time -- the channels were mapped by the time it took me to check.
> 
> To clarify, you get guide data for all channels -- it's up to you to figure out which ones are in the clear, and edit the channel list accordingly. (For me, that's SD locals and PEGs (1-49), HD locals (500-549), broadcast subchannels (high 400s), and The Weather Channel, SD only (119). I haven't found anything else yet.)


I just did this. Confirmed on FIOS in my area. I get same channels as WMcBrine as well as WGN America SD channel.


----------



## wmcbrine

philhu said:


> I just did this. Confirmed on FIOS in my area. I get same channels as WMcBrine as well as WGN America SD channel.


I was counting WGN as a local (it's channel 29), although granted, it's not local to me.  Annoying that only the SD is clear.


----------



## Doit2it

wmcbrine said:


> I now *can* personally vouch for this. Thanks to a reminder from someone here -- which I can't find now; my apologies -- I ordered a card off eBay for my old Series 3. ($2.99, including shipping! Less than a month's rent on a CableCard through Fios.) It works.
> 
> Also, a single card is sufficient for mapping clear QAMs for both tuners, even on an OLED Series 3. _However_, the guided setup process decides between single-tuner and dual-tuner mode based on how many cards are present. So, you need two cards for a proper setup, but can then remove one. (I've ordered a second card.) If you can skip guided setup (because, unlike me, you never re-ran it to select OTA-only mode after returning your old rented cards), then one card should be enough.
> 
> This looks like a real answer to the perennial requests for clear QAM support that we see here. I'd bet that it will work for later models as well, but I haven't tested that. It's just too bad that we didn't find out about it sooner.


Will this work for Xfinity also? And would Xfinity notice the card thru their system if you don't call them to set it up? I've already ordered a M card via ebay. I'm only out $5 if it doesn't work. I'd LOVE to have QAM guide data on my old THD that had been banished to the back room. Thanks!


----------



## bradleys

I will be installing an eBay Cable card in my old Premiere this weekend. (FIOS)

I assume it gets more channels then an HD antenna would get me? It is on a tv that doesn't get that much use, I am hoping to use it instead of purchasing another mini.


----------



## wmcbrine

Doit2it said:


> Will this work for Xfinity also?


It should. Just make sure the card you use matches the brand of card that's required in your area (apparently there are incompatibilities between brands). (And no, I can't tell you how to do that. In my case, I just got one that matched the cards I already had.)



> _And would Xfinity notice the card thru their system if you don't call them to set it up?_


No -- the cards don't communicate back to the cable company. Anyway, it's none of their business.



bradleys said:


> I assume it gets more channels then an HD antenna would get me?





wmcbrine said:


> For me, that's SD locals and PEGs (1-49), HD locals (500-549), broadcast subchannels (high 400s), and The Weather Channel, SD only (119)


("SD locals" includes WGN.) Also, at least for me, there's still no guide data for the PEGs. Plus, in my area, I get two markets via antenna, and only one of them via Fios. But, many of the broadcast channels don't come in reliably via antenna, and _do_ via Fios. So it all depends on your situation.


----------



## Bigg

Comcast now encrypts local channels in my area, and I'm making an educated guess that almost everywhere is encrypted, as we are in the last 10-15% of systems to get upgrades.


----------



## Doit2it

wmcbrine said:


> It should. Just make sure the card you use matches the brand of card that's required in your area (apparently there are incompatibilities between brands). (And no, I can't tell you how to do that. In my case, I just got one that matched the cards I already had.)


Yes, I ordered the same Motorola M card I got from Xfinity that is currently in my XL4.



wmcbrine said:


> No -- the cards don't communicate back to the cable company. Anyway, it's none of their business.


Thanks



Bigg said:


> Comcast now encrypts local channels in my area, and I'm making an educated guess that almost everywhere is encrypted, as we are in the last 10-15% of systems to get upgrades.


Currently, without a CC in my TivoHD I receive local analog stations (with Guide date), local digital SD and local digital HD (both without Guide data) via QAM.


----------



## Bigg

Doit2it said:


> Currently, without a CC in my TivoHD I receive local analog stations (with Guide date), local digital SD and local digital HD (both without Guide data) via QAM.


Wow, what back-asswards cable company is that still doing analog?


----------



## JoeKustra

Bigg said:


> Wow, what back-asswards cable company is that still doing analog?


Some LP and school stations are still sending analog OTA. Some cable companies, like mine, have a dozen analog channels and the "locals" in HD for $25/month. My analog dies next week. I still get 140 clear QAM SD/HD channels.


----------



## Boneless

Bigg said:


> Wow, what back-asswards cable company is that still doing analog?


I still pay only for the locals in analog. The tivo QAM tuner gets me digital SD locals and the HD locals though.


----------



## Bigg

I was just wondering what company that is. Comcast and Verizon have long since gone all-digital. The basic channel encryption is stupid, but going all-digital is good since analogs are useless anyways.


----------



## Boneless

Bigg said:


> I was just wondering what company that is. Comcast and Verizon have long since gone all-digital. The basic channel encryption is stupid, but going all-digital is good since analogs are useless anyways.


Oceanic Time Warner in Hawaii


----------



## JoeKustra

Bigg said:


> I was just wondering what company that is. Comcast and Verizon have long since gone all-digital. The basic channel encryption is stupid, but going all-digital is good since analogs are useless anyways.


Service Electric Cablevision. Current clear QAM:
http://www.secv.com/cdocs/qam_mah.pdf
The first "Local Advantage" goes digital next week (two free DTA units). Also not shown are some network channels from Philly.

This is the basic line up, not the $25 limited (plus HD locals).


----------



## Doit2it

I can confirm an unregistered CC works on Xfinity in the Nashville market. I get all the local stations plus WGN, CSPAN, FS1, FSTN, LMN, even XF3D all in High Def with Guide data. I get a few SD stations also including local, GSN, SCI, and some shopping networks.

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Loach

Bigg said:


> Wow, what back-asswards cable company is that still doing analog?


Cox in many markets (including mine) still does analog. I wish they'd get rid of it so I'd be motivated to upgrade the 20" tube TV that's hanging on the wall in my exercise room.


----------



## tivoyahoo

JimG19 said:


> I tried but it seemed to get stuck on acquiring channel information screen. How long did it take to map the channels once you inserted the card?


I ran into the same screen - was stuck there for hours and let it run overnight and never completed. Tried rebooting and still got stuck at same screen. This first attempt was on a liftetime S3 OLED (TCD648), same model tivo and same cable card model that I believe wmcbrine reported success with, but in my case not connected to Fios, but instead Comcast/Xfinity.

But then I stuck the very same Motorola M card (gold tipped version which I've seen reported in these forums as the best choice for comcast use) from ebay into an inactive Tivo HD (TCD652) and it acquired the channel map and guide seamlessly. Ran a fresh guided setup and still didn't run into the "Please Wait...Acquiring Channel Information" screen.

Both S3's tested were running 11.0m so that was not a variable. At first I thought the different result using the same card and same coax connection might have to do with the multistream card support difference between the two S3 variations. In this case I was only inserting one card and the S3 OLED had been configured for dual tuner including OTA. And then I also remembered some posts about the HD having a higher frequency range tuning capability vs. the S3 OLED - wider bandpass. Or maybe it was the S4 series where the capability jumped up to full 1 Ghz vs. 800 mhz cutoff??

So to test that I put the very same card into an inactive Premiere (TCD746320) and got similar result as the S3 OLED - stuck at same point. So even though the Premiere reported "You have successfully updated your cable card decoder configuration" and accepted the ebay m card just fine, it would loop on the "Please Wait...Acquiring Channel Information" and then go to a screen titled "Error Acquiring Channels" with the message "The DVR is unable to acquire channel information from the CableCard." And then it would look back and try again and stick on the "Please Wait...Acquiring Channel Information" screen. Got the same result with software versions 20.3.1 and 20.3.7.1a (pulled the fall update between attempts)

That screen on the Premiere at least shows a progress bar, whereas I believe the S3 OLED would simply show an endlessly spinning circle. However progress would never change - sometimes it would immediately show up the 50% mark as soon as it came on screen, but never move past that. And other times the screen would pop up at 75% completed, but again would just be stuck at that point and then finally fail and loop back to "Error Acquiring Channels". Ran a clear and delete everything (CDE) and same result.

Then slid the same cablecard into an active Premiere 4 (TCD750/20.3.1) that had just been CDE'd, ran fresh GS, and same result as the other Premiere (TCD746) above including showing both the seemingly false 50% and 75% progress bars and endlessly looping / stuck.

So it looks like I was able to repeat Doit2it's success result with xfinity and unregistered card, but only on a specific model. Based on his posts and signature it looks like he too used a Tivo HD (TCD652), but in his case it was lifetimed and in my case the Tivo HD was inactive.

Anyone have any ideas on why the different results between models? or what I might try differently? I used the exact same coax connection each time, so it wasn't a difference of signal level at one outlet vs. another - it was the same outlet/same piece of coax that was connected to all of them. And that outlet has good signal - I want to say green bars: 90 plus readings on the cable signal strength meter.

If the same cable card can pass on the correct channel map to the Tivo HD, why wouldn't it pass it to the S3 OLED running same software? I didn't try rerunning GS on the S3 OLED and dropping OTA, but perhaps the dual tuner configuration vs. one card inserted had an effect? in other words, running GS for cablecard only, 1 cable card, 1 tuner might yield a different result -thoughts?

Also, I have a roamio base and a pro I could try the card with. I believe I saw a poster report success with clear qam and unpaired card on a roamio, but I would have to search and look to refresh my memory.

Seems like a nice find and negates the need to do manual qam channel mapping / script with prom mod on S3 and copying/duplicating guide data from ota source to the qam equivalent. but it may be too late of course, with the clear qam window barely still open as noted in this thread. and moving toward shutting entirely. but nice for those in locations where the window is still open, or partly open for some channels.


----------



## agredon

wmcbrine said:


> Recently, some people have found that an unsubscribed CableCard off eBay (maybe not even from Fios originally) is sufficient for mapping the clear QAMs. But I can't personally vouch for this.


After my first TiVo Premiere died, I inserted the Cable Card [from the dead one] into the new one and picked up everything but the Premiums (HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Encore, and Starz). I tried to get Comcast to pair it, but never could get it properly paired. I didn't worry too much about it since I rarely watched Premium channels anyways. Unfortunately, where I live now the choices are Brighthouse or Brighthouse (a nice little STRANGLEHOLD they have on this area). Prior to pairing their card, the only channels I could get [of the ones I tested] were Clear QAMs.


----------



## agredon

Bigg said:


> Wow, what back-asswards cable company is that still doing analog?


I bought a new TV on Black Thursday (since its now on Thanksgiving Day instead of Friday). I haven't personally checked any of them, but when I did a channel scan it "Found" believe it or not about 60 ANALOG channels. I was surprised since Comcast [which I had at my previous place] dropped their last [13 or so] analog channels maybe 1-2 years ago. It appears Brighthouse is lagging a little behind. Also, most hotels and some apartments, etc... still use analog. I remember staying at a hotel with a nice 32" Flat Panel HDTV only to find that it received only about 20 channels - ALL HIGHLY PIXELATED ANALOG.


----------



## edpete97

EBay has lots of Motorola MCards. I just buy one of those and plug it in to get my locals I pay for with FiOS? I picked up 2 premieres at Walmart for $49 each but didn't realize I'd need cards just to get my locals. Once I get the cards do I have to pair them with Verizon or just run a setup on the TiVo and I'm good to go? Thanks.


----------



## CoxInPHX

edpete97 said:


> EBay has lots of Motorola MCards. I just buy one of those and plug it in to get my locals I pay for with FiOS? I picked up 2 premieres at Walmart for $49 each but didn't realize I'd need cards just to get my locals. Once I get the cards do I have to pair them with Verizon or just run a setup on the TiVo and I'm good to go? Thanks.


Good luck with those eBay cards 

You need to lease a CableCARD from Verizon, if you expect the Premiere to work correctly. CableCARDs are specific to each provider, and generally are not interchangeable, Verizon will not activate a CableCARD you purchased from eBay.


----------



## wmcbrine

If all you want are the locals, the eBay cards are fine. You can't activate them with Verizon, but you can pick up all the unencrypted channels without activation.

Of course the Premiere also needs a subscription...


----------



## jonnyfive

So if I plug my TV straight into the wall, I get a bunch of channels (I'm assuming this is from the digital tuner in my TV??). However, I can't get my tivo connected because it won't work at all without a cablecard (I don't pay for any cable service, just COX internet). If I get one of the ebay cablecards, will I then be able to tune my tivo to all these same channels as my TV is getting?!


----------



## CoxInPHX

jonnyfive said:


> So if I plug my TV straight into the wall, I get a bunch of channels (I'm assuming this is from the digital tuner in my TV??). However, I can't get my tivo connected because it won't work at all without a cablecard (I don't pay for any cable service, just COX internet). If I get one of the ebay cablecards, will I then be able to tune my tivo to all these same channels as my TV is getting?!


Probably Not. It might depend on where you are located though.
It definitely will not work on a SA/Cisco system, on a Motorola system, you may get some channels that are not flagged Copy Once.

Cox uses Copy Protection extensively, What you are seeing on the TV is the Local HDs in Clear QAM, a bunch of Legacy Analog cable channles (Channels 2-60 ish..) and a few SD Clear QAM channels.


----------



## jonnyfive

CoxInPHX said:


> Probably Not. It might depend on where you are located though.
> It definitely will not work on a SA/Cisco system, on a Motorola system, you may get some channels that are not flagged Copy Once.
> 
> Cox uses Copy Protection extensively, What you are seeing on the TV is the Local HDs in Clear QAM, a bunch of Legacy Analog cable channles (Channels 2-60 ish..) and a few SD Clear QAM channels.


Hmm, bummer. How is it that a 7 year old off-brand TV has the right tuners in it to pick up all these channels, but the Tivo can't be configured to pick them up? I use an HD antenna with the Tivo right now, and I only get like FOX, CBS and PBS. There must be a way for me to plug the coax from the wall into my tivo roamio and get those channels too? You're right though, my tv picks up channels 2-60ish, and then a handful over 1000 which are HD.


----------



## philhu

The reason is that they do not have software in a Tivo to read clear QAM stations on a cable system while your tv does.

I am on FIOS and have an ebay card. It gets all locals in hd, most digital subcarrier stations (like 25-2, etc) and a few others, like WGN-America, weatherchannel, etc.


----------



## JoeKustra

jonnyfive said:


> Hmm, bummer. How is it that a 7 year old off-brand TV has the right tuners in it to pick up all these channels, but the Tivo can't be configured to pick them up? I use an HD antenna with the Tivo right now, and I only get like FOX, CBS and PBS. There must be a way for me to plug the coax from the wall into my tivo roamio and get those channels too? You're right though, my tv picks up channels 2-60ish, and then a handful over 1000 which are HD.


You may get the correct answer in the Roamio thread.


----------



## tatergator1

jonnyfive said:


> Hmm, bummer. How is it that a 7 year old off-brand TV has the right tuners in it to pick up all these channels, but the Tivo can't be configured to pick them up? I use an HD antenna with the Tivo right now, and I only get like FOX, CBS and PBS. There must be a way for me to plug the coax from the wall into my tivo roamio and get those channels too? You're right though, my tv picks up channels 2-60ish, and then a handful over 1000 which are HD.


Because channels 2-60 are likely still broadcast in Analog on your system. The Roamio does not support Analog, which has been around for decades and is a dying technology.

Besides, admitting that you only subscribe to Cox internet, but are watching the analog and unencrypted HD channels presents it's own problem, but I'm not going to say anything more on that.


----------



## philhu

tatergator1 said:


> Besides, admitting that you only subscribe to Cox internet, but are watching the analog and unencrypted HD channels presents it's own problem, but I'm not going to say anything more on that.


 White elephant in the room time.....Baaaa-zinga!


----------



## jonnyfive

tatergator1 said:


> Because channels 2-60 are likely still broadcast in Analog on your system. The Roamio does not support Analog, which has been around for decades and is a dying technology.
> 
> Besides, admitting that you only subscribe to Cox internet, but are watching the analog and unencrypted HD channels presents it's own problem, but I'm not going to say anything more on that.


What problem? Cox offers free basic TV with high-speed internet. How is it I'm doing something wrong? I don't know enough about the analog, digital, clear QAM channels to know which ones are which and if a handful of them are supposed to not be coming through - so even if that were the case, again, how is this my fault? I'm supposed to know that I'm not supposed to tune to channel 26 - that's bad - but channel 27, oh that's ok!


----------



## CoxInPHX

jonnyfive said:


> *What problem? Cox offers free basic TV with high-speed internet.* How is it I'm doing something wrong? I don't know enough about the analog, digital, clear QAM channels to know which ones are which and if a handful of them are supposed to not be coming through - so even if that were the case, again, how is this my fault? I'm supposed to know that I'm not supposed to tune to channel 26 - that's bad - but channel 27, oh that's ok!


No, they Do Not, Basic TV is not provided free with Internet, you are not entitled to any TV channels if you do not at least pay for Starter TV.

Cox does not aggressively place filters on the line if you cancel TV service, But it does happen, if a Tech is working in the neighborhood, and happens to check the service associated with each account.

If you are a new customer and only sign-up for Internet, Cox would probably place a filter during install.


----------



## Bigg

CoxInPHX said:


> No, they Do Not, Basic TV is not provided free with Internet, you are not entitled to any TV channels if you do not at least pay for Starter TV.
> 
> Cox does not aggressively place filters on the line if you cancel TV service, But it does happen, if a Tech is working in the neighborhood, and happens to check the service associated with each account.
> 
> If you are a new customer and only sign-up for Internet, Cox would probably place a filter during install.


It really is Cox's fault though for running a weird partially antiquated and partially high-tech kludge of technology instead of just doing things the right way and killing off analog. Comcast doesn't filter anything anymore, as it's all digital, and all encrypted. There is no way to just plug in and steal Comcast cable anymore (short of sharing service with another unit or something unauthorized like that).


----------



## jonnyfive

I'm actually a brand new customer who did order just the internet in a new house I moved into. So, why this filter isn't there, I don't know. I was under the assumption that in this whole move to digital, that the basic network channels would still be aired free of charge - just as they always were in the old days before cable( which I thought the definition of is the extra channels like ESPN, Disney, HBO, etc, which is why people pay).


----------



## CoxInPHX

Bigg said:


> It really is Cox's fault though for running a weird partially antiquated and partially high-tech kludge of technology instead of just doing things the right way and killing off analog. Comcast doesn't filter anything anymore, as it's all digital, and all encrypted. There is no way to just plug in and steal Comcast cable anymore (short of sharing service with another unit or something unauthorized like that).


Cox is hardly a kludge of a system, It probably is the most homogeneous, uniform and more advanced MSO in the country, and the only one that has all 1GHz plants, all FTTN, and 1GHz HFC to the home, the only one that is extensively using MPEG4/H.264, Has deployed tru2way in all markets, using DOCSIS instead of OOB for their own newer equipment. Has 8 channel DOCSIS 3 bonding in most markets. Has announced and begun working on Gigabit Internet in Phoenix.

Just because Cox has chosen to still provide many Analog versions of channels to it's customers, hardly means they are deficient in any technology. Analog is simply an added benefit to the many who still have and use older TV's. Cox does not have any Analog only channels, everything is duplicated in Digital.

The decision to keep Analog, with no definitive time-frame to discontinue its use, has resulted in the extensive use of SDV for mainly all SD channels beyond the Expanded Tier, and some lesser watched HD channels. For the most part Cox has deployed SDV very reliably and efficiently, I have no complaints regarding the reliable use of SDV.


----------



## CoxInPHX

jonnyfive said:


> I'm actually a brand new customer who did order just the internet in a new house I moved into. So, why this filter isn't there, I don't know. I was under the assumption that in this whole move to digital, that the basic network channels would still be aired free of charge - just as they always were in the old days before cable( which I thought the definition of is the extra channels like ESPN, Disney, HBO, etc, which is why people pay).


Count your blessings, You lucked out. But that could change at any time.

I am not one of those folks that would reprimand you for accessing what is readily available on the cable. If the provider did not block it, I see it as fair game. Others may call it some version of theft of service, or at the very least unethical.


----------



## wmcbrine

jonnyfive said:


> I was under the assumption that in this whole move to digital, that the basic network channels would still be aired free of charge - just as they always were in the old days before cable


They are, of course, aired for free just as they always were -- via antenna. They are not, and have never been, delivered for free via cable.



> _(which I thought the definition of is the extra channels like ESPN, Disney, HBO, etc, which is why people pay)._


Those are actually a late addition. Originally, cable TV was Community Antenna TV -- you just shared an antenna with others in the community. And you paid for it.


----------



## nooneuknow

CoxInPHX said:


> No, they Do Not, Basic TV is not provided free with Internet, you are not entitled to any TV channels if you do not at least pay for Starter TV.
> 
> Cox does not aggressively place filters on the line if you cancel TV service, But it does happen, if a Tech is working in the neighborhood, and happens to check the service associated with each account.
> 
> If you are a new customer and only sign-up for Internet, Cox would probably place a filter during install.


They are VERY aggressive about it here. They even went around replacing all the cable modem service-only traps that had yellow tape bands on them with ones with black tape bands (color coding for easy ID). They replaced them all due to "a couple TV channels making it through". They routinely come around checking they are still installed, and not removed by the customer, or anybody else. If they disappear too many times, that customer gets their lateral pulled clear out of the tube.


----------



## L David Matheny

CoxInPHX said:


> Count your blessings, You lucked out. But that could change at any time.
> 
> I am not one of those folks that would reprimand you for accessing what is readily available on the cable. If the provider did not block it, I see it as fair game. Others may call it some version of theft of service, or at the very least unethical.


I agree. If the local newspaper tosses a copy onto your porch every day, would you feel obligated to discard it without reading anything just because you never ordered or paid for a subscription? Or would you assume that they know what they're doing and must have their reasons? I guess you could ask the neighbors if the paper is being tossed onto the wrong porch.


----------



## aaronwt

I would throw that newspaper right in the trash. You would need to pay me to go back to reading a newspaper. I stopped reading them in the early 2000's.


----------



## JoeKustra

CoxInPHX said:


> Count your blessings, You lucked out. But that could change at any time.
> 
> I am not one of those folks that would reprimand you for accessing what is readily available on the cable. If the provider did not block it, I see it as fair game. Others may call it some version of theft of service, or at the very least unethical.


My cable company made you buy the lowest tier TV ($(20) if you bought their internet service (5 up 1 down) for $20. This would allow locals in HD. Last month they dropped the TV requirement and raised the internet only price to $50. I don't know how much TV still comes through.


----------



## lpwcomp

philhu said:


> The reason is that they do not have software in a Tivo to read clear QAM stations on a cable system while your tv does.


This is incorrect. A Premiere is perfectly cable of finding and tuning to clear QAM channels w/o a CableCARD. You just can't get guide data for them. It is in no way either a s/w or h/w limitation.



philhu said:


> I am on FIOS and have an ebay card. It gets all locals in hd, most digital subcarrier stations (like 25-2, etc) and a few others, like WGN-America, weatherchannel, etc.


Not an option for me. Comcast is encrypting _*everything*_.


----------



## jonnyfive

I might be more confused than when I entered this forum. Geesh. I appreciate all the responses though. Oh well. I'll mess around with my Roamio, if I can get it to work with any channels coming in through my house wiring, cool, if not, I don't really care as I didn't buy it for that "cable" anyway.


----------



## Bigg

CoxInPHX said:


> Cox is hardly a kludge of a system, It probably is the most homogeneous, uniform and more advanced MSO in the country, and the only one that has all 1GHz plants, all FTTN, and 1GHz HFC to the home, the only one that is extensively using MPEG4/H.264, Has deployed tru2way in all markets, using DOCSIS instead of OOB for their own newer equipment. Has 8 channel DOCSIS 3 bonding in most markets. Has announced and begun working on Gigabit Internet in Phoenix.
> 
> Just because Cox has chosen to still provide many Analog versions of channels to it's customers, hardly means they are deficient in any technology. Analog is simply an added benefit to the many who still have and use older TV's. Cox does not have any Analog only channels, everything is duplicated in Digital.
> 
> The decision to keep Analog, with no definitive time-frame to discontinue its use, has resulted in the extensive use of SDV for mainly all SD channels beyond the Expanded Tier, and some lesser watched HD channels. For the most part Cox has deployed SDV very reliably and efficiently, I have no complaints regarding the reliable use of SDV.


Some of that is far superior to what other MSOs are doing. However, 1ghz is problematic and unreliable, and the only reason that they need to go above 860mhz is because they are squandering so much bandwidth with worthless and useless analog. Comcast got rid of analog, so they don't need SDV. They probably should do MPEG-4 for capacity and quality, but without analog, there really isn't a scenario where they need the kludge that is SDV. You can deliver 100mbps+ internet and ~200 HD's today on an 860mhz system without SDV just by killing analog and using MPEG-4.

There is no need to directly support old TV's that should have been sent to the recycler years ago. For the people who refuse to let go of obsolete technology, Comcast has DTAs, and those work better than having analog on the cable plant, since they generate a fresh, clean, strong analog signal 6 wire feet from the TV, with no analog degradation happening along the way.

Analog is not a feature, it is just a plain waste of precious bandwidth.

Some of those things are unique to Cox, but almost every cable provider is FTTN, that's how HFC works, and many are running at 860mhz. 1ghz is a good idea for future proofing, in case more DOCSIS channels are needed or something, but for now, 860mhz is about as far as you can reliably go, and even then, sometimes it's a bit flakier than 650mhz was.

I hate Comcast because they won't upgrade our system from 650mhz to 860mhz, so we're missing a lot of channels, although they could just as easily get us what the 860mhz systems have be moving HD to MPEG-4.


----------



## dsonny

Like the OP, I live on a university campus. Our cable service is provided by Charter, and they provide the signal for all channels via clear unencrypted QAM. I can see the channels by plugging the coax directly into my TV. When I attach my Roamio, I can see the channels after I do a manual channel scan. However, the channels I see have a "-1" after the number (e.g. 773-1). The problem is that the program guide shows the program info for only the number without the "-1" (e.g. 773, not 773-1) so I can't schedule recordings or anything like that.

Based on everything I've read here, I leased a cablecard from Charter, plugged it in, got it paired through tech support, but then got stuck at the "Acquiring channel info" screen, with the status bar stuck at 50%. I eventually get an error. Do I need to rerun GS or is there something else going on? Tech support is also saying I need a tuning adapter, but do I need that with a clear QAM signal?


----------



## JoeKustra

dsonny said:


> Like the OP, I live on a university campus. Our cable service is provided by Charter, and they provide the signal for all channels via clear unencrypted QAM. I can see the channels by plugging the coax directly into my TV. When I attach my Roamio, I can see the channels after I do a manual channel scan. However, the channels I see have a "-1" after the number (e.g. 773-1). The problem is that the program guide shows the program info for only the number without the "-1" (e.g. 773, not 773-1) so I can't schedule recordings or anything like that.
> 
> Based on everything I've read here, I leased a cablecard from Charter, plugged it in, got it paired through tech support, but then got stuck at the "Acquiring channel info" screen, with the status bar stuck at 50%. I eventually get an error. Do I need to rerun GS or is there something else going on? Tech support is also saying I need a tuning adapter, but do I need that with a clear QAM signal?


I feel you do not need a tuning adapter. I hope they leased you a Motorola Multistream Card (M-Card). A cable card will convert the -1 type channels to whole numbers. It does not affect the frequency or "clear QAM" in that it's no longer relevant.

Others have reported hangups during a scan. Perhaps they can help. And it can't hurt to rerun the GS. Search the thread. Without a cable card the channels on your TV should be the same as the Roamio without the cable card.


----------



## tuvoc55

I know that this is an old thread but I wanted to see if anyone is still able to use a cable card from eBay with fios to get the channel mapping to work for guide data on QAM channels. I just tried this with a premiere and it is getting stuck at 89% getting the channel information. The card that i purchased seems to be the same one that fios uses based on other posts - Motorola M-Card 514517-017-00. Thanks in advance to anyone that can help.


----------



## tuvoc55

i also just called verizon to ask about getting a new cablecard and the rep said that they just doubled the price to $10 per month. i think i will be sticking with my antenna for now even though i can't get everything that i can get via qam which i was hoping to ve able to get with guide data with a card from ebay. given this price increase it sounds like they are really trying to get everyone off the cablecards.


----------



## pl1

tuvoc55 said:


> i also just called verizon to ask about getting a new cablecard and the rep said that they just doubled the price to $10 per month. i think i will be sticking with my antenna for now even though i can't get everything that i can get via qam which i was hoping to ve able to get with guide data with a card from ebay. given this price increase it sounds like they are really trying to get everyone off the cablecards.


That would suck! Let's hope it's wrong. I can't find it anywhere else searching. Are you still trying to hook up your own purchased cableCARD? Or does it not work?


----------



## tuvoc55

pl1 said:


> That would suck! Let's hope it's wrong. I can't find it anywhere else searching. Are you still trying to hook up your own purchased cableCARD? Or does it not work?


No luck using a cable card from ebay. An agent from fios on the web page and one on the phone today both said that the cost of a cable card has doubled and the rep on the phone said that they also raised the price on tuning adapters. I was hoping to be able to get the card from ebay to pull in the channel map data but no luck. I was also going to get a cable card today until I found out about the increased cost. With my antenna the uhf channels are good, it is vhf that are tricky sometimes.


----------



## pl1

tuvoc55 said:


> No luck using a cable card from ebay. An agent from fios on the web page and one on the phone today both said that the cost of a cable card has doubled and the rep on the phone said that they also raised the price on tuning adapters. I was hoping to be able to get the card from ebay to pull in the channel map data but no luck. I was also going to get a cable card today until I found out about the increased cost. With my antenna the uhf channels are good, it is vhf that are tricky sometimes.


Well, hopefully they grandfather the $5/mo I'm paying. So far they are still grandfathering the Mix & Match 1.0 I'm on which has increased $14. I prefer Fios with TiVo over streaming.


----------



## tuvoc55

pl1 said:


> Well, hopefully they grandfather the $5/mo I'm paying. So far they are still grandfathering the Mix & Match 1.0 I'm on which has increased $14. I prefer Fios with TiVo over streaming.


Keep a close eye on your bill. I am on the extreme package from years ago and it just went up by $10 this month. It would have been nice to get Tivo going with QAM with guide data but it does not look like that is going to happen for me without a subscribed cablecard.


----------



## aaronwt

I hope mine doesn't go up. I signed a new two year contract in December 2021. For Gigabit Internet, Custom TV, and home phone service. RIght now, after taxes, fees, and one cable card I only pay around $104 each month.

I guess this will be another thing that pushes me further away from cable TV. When my current contract runs out, in December 2023, I might finally be dumping my FiOS TV. I considered it last year until they offered me the new two year deal for only $2 more than I had been paying. Without the deal my price would have gone up $8 or $10.

EDIT: I guess my price isn't $104. It was supposed to be but I just looked and my last few bills have only been $101.46. No idea why it's lower than it was supposed to be.


----------



## pl1

tuvoc55 said:


> Keep a close eye on your bill. I am on the extreme package from years ago and it just went up by $10 this month. It would have been nice to get Tivo going with QAM with guide data but it does not look like that is going to happen for me without a subscribed cablecard.


It looks like it only affects new customers (or customers who change their quantities). I know that does not help "you", unfortunately, but at least current customers survive the price increase.





CableCARD cost doubling? - Verizon FiOS TV | DSLReports Forums


Forum discussion: Per this post, two Verizon reps said that the price of cableCARDs doubled. https://www.tivocommunity.com/threads/tivo-premiere-no-cable-card-just-analog.456819/post-12534781quote:An agent from fios on the web page and




www.dslreports.com


----------

