# Tuning Adapter No Longer Needed on Charter All Digital Cable?



## musicfanatic76 (Sep 15, 2014)

SHORT VERSION: We thought we had an issue with our tuning adapter (TA), as we lost some channels after Charter in our area went 100% digital. During a visit from Charter, the channels came in (along with all our other channels) when the TA was either not locked in or completely disconnected from the Tivo, but we lost them when connected and locked in. I'm speculating that with a new software update from Tivo and a 100% digital signal from Charter, we don't need the tuning adapter anymore! One less thing to worry about! 

LONG VERSION: We have been victims of a number of tuning adapter (and some cable card) nightmares with Charter over the last few years. The most recent one was generated when Charter went 100% digital in our area. The letter we got saying that they were going all digital and that we would need cable boxes for our other TVs (great.:down indicated that the switch would happen the week before we went on vacation. 

The digital conversion happened and while our TA stayed locked in, we lost a bunch of channels. We repeated the guided set up to get all the channels in the right place, since some moved, but even after doing that, we were missing about 16 channels, including some key ones (Bravo! Food Network!). Since Charter is unable to schedule tech visits more than 10 days in advance (really?) we had to wait until after vacation to schedule a visit. 

So the guy comes today and he's a 3rd party contractor, not one of the three techs in our area who we are on a first name basis with. Great. He does the usual stuff - checks the line outside, the splitters, etc. He announces that the channels are now coming in after he replaced some splitters and shortened a cable. I check the channels and they aren't coming in. 

He resets the tuning adapter, and while the TA is trying to lock in (going from blinking to solid green light on the front), the channels are coming in. The TA locks in, and channels stop coming in. He tries a new TA. Same thing happens. We bypass the TA and channels are coming in fine. He calls his dispatch/central support and they know nothing about not needing a TA any more. I get on chat with Tivo and they don't know anything, but say "if the channels are working without a TA, then you should be fine." I'm able to record and play back and all is good! 

While trying to search why this might be, I come across an article about "TiVo Crafts 'Embedded' Switched Digital Video Tech" (I am new to the forum, so I can't post a link, but search for the article title to find it) which makes me wonder if our Tivo Premiere has software that basically replaces the TA, but it didn't matter until the signal changed to 100% digital, or if the 100% digital signal is responsible for eliminating the need for the TA. 

Either way, I'm happy, since we have our channels and we don't have the &*%$ tuning adapter any more. It just seems that no one knows why.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Let me ask you a question are you using the passthrough port on the back of the TA to connect the cable to your TiVo? If so that's likely the issue. I have a friend who's an installer for Charter and he says that the loss on that port is like 10db. A 2 way splitter is only 3db. Try putting a 2 way splitter in there instead and running on leg to the TA and the other to the TiVo. I bet you have better luck getting all the channels that way.

Then again if the TA does not effect any of the channels you subscribe to then might as well leave it disconnected. I ran a test on mine a while back after we went 100% digital and there were only 3 HD channels, none of which I cared about, that required the TA. I left my connected though because you never know when they might move a channel you do watch over to SDV.


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

This exact same thing has happened to me in the Madison, WI area. I've had multiple techs out, the works. We lose 20+ HD stations if the TAs are plugged in but only lose one channel anyone cares about (Disney Junior HD) if they aren't plugged in right now. We left one TA plugged in downstairs just in case, but unplugged the TAs on the two main TiVos.

I'll be happy if we're done with these accursed things, even though they worked fine until the all digital switch. Too many splitters and power cords at every TV. And I'm pretty sure Charter's CEO is quoted as wanting to eliminate switched digital video, which suggests this trend should continue.

That being said, I'm missing channels I'm paying for, and they haven't been able to fix it. One of these days, I should contact billing...


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

We have Charter here in N. NV and it went 'all-digital' in February. Still have the tuning adapters, but then I haven't tried it without them. I would LOVE to have one less thing plugged in, that's for sure! 

When I first got my Premieres and the Charter guy came to my house to hook me up I was surprised with this 'tuning adapter' thing. I just thought he had to bring CableCARDs for each one and I was dealing with a lot less cables.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

sharkster said:


> We have Charter here in N. NV and it went 'all-digital' in February. Still have the tuning adapters, but then I haven't tried it without them. I would LOVE to have one less thing plugged in, that's for sure!
> 
> When I first got my Premieres and the Charter guy came to my house to hook me up I was surprised with this 'tuning adapter' thing. I just thought he had to bring CableCARDs for each one and I was dealing with a lot less cables.


Where in N. NV? I'm in Carson City and we went all digital last Oct/Nov IIRC.

I disconnected my TA once and flipped through the HD stations and only lost 3 channels, all sports channels IIRC, none of which I cared about. Not sure if it affected any of the SD stations as I have them all disabled.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Where in N. NV? I'm in Carson City and we went all digital last Oct/Nov IIRC.
> 
> I disconnected my TA once and flipped through the HD stations and only lost 3 channels, all sports channels IIRC, none of which I cared about. Not sure if it affected any of the SD stations as I have them all disabled.


Hey Dan! I'm in West Reno (lived in Carson & grad from high school there, though - in the WAY WAY past. ha).

Anyway, that is very interesting. I haven't tried eliminating the TA yet. I'm always afraid that, if I don't leave well enough alone, something bad will happen.

The all-digital schedule here started in early Feb this year and ran through the month, from what I've seen. They did it in sections. Somebody I knew brought me her letter (wanted to know what it meant, as she is 100% technology inept) and her conversion date was two weeks after the one in my letter. IIRC, mine was Feb 16.

Hope it's not too smoky there! Man, having asthma, I'm dying here.  Hope they get that fire under control and keep that man in jail.


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## Rick Auricchio (Feb 7, 2002)

I just noticed that my Premiere (with the latest update) didn't show the TA connected. So I unplugged it and things look fine.

Here's a question: There are lots of channels in my channel list that I don't receive, based on my Charter "TV Select HD" package. But the Wish List shows things on lots of those unavailable channels (which I've unchecked in the Tivo Channel List). Is there any way to get that to stop happening? (It just began with the latest update)

Do I need to re-run Guided Setup?


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

If you do repeat GS, I recommend doing so using zip 00000 & Tiny TiVo as your provider, using installer express setup. Let indexing and GC finish (in DVR Diags), then put the correct info back in, again using installer express setup.

Press enter on the 2nd screen of GS to get the express option.

I would disconnect the TA for the Tiny TiVo setup, along with any coax to the TiVo (unless you need the MoCA to have internet access).

As my signature line says right now: "Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!" I've made this my signature, because this advice has helped so many, even those without MoCA.


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## Rick Auricchio (Feb 7, 2002)

I removed the TA last night; all my channels work. My area (California central coast) went all-digital on 29 July of this year.

Wishlist search never showed programs on the unavailable channels when we switched to digital---it only started with the current software update.

I'll first try re-creating the wish list entry. If that doesn't do the trick, I may run GS again.


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## XIBM (Mar 9, 2013)

I took my TA off and compared the channels. Most channels were there immediately including the silver package but there were a couple of differences. Some more showed up after a while (maybe the CC updated). I think the difference is at Charter and the TA channel maps are not in sink with the CC maps. I think channel changes are a bit faster without the TA.


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## Tobashadow (Nov 11, 2006)

Channel changes are faster without it here but there is some channels that require it but it's less than a dozen. What I did was use a splitter before the TA and run a direct feed to the tivo but leave the TA with a feed and the USB. That way if needed the channel will be there but I still get the fast response.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Tobashadow said:


> Channel changes are faster without it here but there is some channels that require it but it's less than a dozen. What I did was use a splitter before the TA and run a direct feed to the tivo but leave the TA with a feed and the USB. That way if needed the channel will be there but I still get the fast response.


I am not disagreeing, or trying to say anything you are saying is wrong. I just would like to add some data points. You are not the only one to see results like this, MoCA being used, or not.

Since the OUT port of the TA doesn't control anything, other than being an "equalized" (minor amplification) passing of what's going into the IN, any differences in "response time" would indicate the signal might be too high without the splitter knocking off -3.5dB, plus eliminating the (max) 1.0dB amplification, which attempts to make the IN and OUT signal equalized, without the loss of a true pass-through (passive) device.

The other thing known (but not by all), is that the quality the equalizer inside existing TAs is "not so great", plus may top-out at 860MHz (rated top-end), plus any MoCA getting in tends to do one of two things, often both:

1. The MoCA is completely blocked by the amp/EQ, since amplifiers/equalizers can't let MoCA through, unless equipped specifically with an internal filter and bypass to pass the MoCA, unaltered/unamplified (and TAs are not designed/made this way).

2. The MoCA will cause the TA to malfunction, or otherwise not operate correctly, due to it not being able to cope with the frequencies, as well as the very high power level they operate at. Any device lacking a built-in filter, but fed MoCA, may malfunction, or operate sub-optimally.

What is not the case, is that any tuning is applied to what comes out of the OUT of the TA. If working as designed, without any noted issues afflicting things, what goes into the IN (5-860MHz) should always equal what's coming out the OUT. The exception not covered by the rest of this, is that without power, or if turned off, the OUT port will stop letting a signal through.


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## XIBM (Mar 9, 2013)

I think the increase in speed comes from the Tivo not having to send and receive stuff on the USB from the TA, it apparently now gets channel maps from the CC. For instance when the TA is set up it always lights up a red signal indicating it is talking to the Tivo when you press any button on the remote. 

When Charter sent out the all digital boxes I attached one to the TA out as I did not have a splitter available. Charter could not complete a "hit" to that box as it could not send the acknowledgment back to Charter. I thought I had a defective box as my second unit upstairs worked fine. A truck roll brought a splitter to put the digital box directly to the cable and it started working as designed.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

@XIBM: I'll admit my hands-on experience is limited to Cisco/SA equipment, especially TAs.

Since you have Motorola, I can't be 100% sure. But, I still believe that once a TA's USB connection is established, and everything is configured & working properly, the TA takes over ALL mapping duties, SDV or not. It's been my understanding, and I've seen it all around the forum, that it is NOT a matter of the TA only doing SDV, and the cablecard still doing the rest.

If this is untrue for Motorola equipment, I'd sure like to know.


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## Tobashadow (Nov 11, 2006)

With it on a splitter the tivo is using the usb to tell the TA what to do but the cable card has a direct line bypassing the TA. 

This makes it so the only thing the TA does is request the SDV channel appear on your local hub. Since not every channel is SDV, if the channel is already on your local hub the cable card handles it like you didn't have a TA in the way.

Both of mine are motorola and I can see a marked difference between the two boxes, one with it on a separate line and one using the pass thru. My setup is using a 4way splitter at the head end with two separate lines to each box location so the signal is the same on all four.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Tobashadow said:


> With it on a splitter the tivo is using the usb to tell the TA what to do but the cable card has a direct line bypassing the TA.
> 
> This makes it so the only thing the TA does is request the SDV channel appear on your local hub. Since not every channel is SDV, if the channel is already on your local hub the cable card handles it like you didn't have a TA in the way.
> 
> Both of mine are motorola and I can see a marked difference between the two boxes, one with it on a separate line and one using the pass thru. My setup is using a 4way splitter at the head end with two separate lines to each box location so the signal is the same on all four.


That truly is odd, and goes against everything I've ever experienced, or seen posted. I read all equipment threads, and all provider threads, not just what I have and what I use.

Even if using the IN-OUT inline coax TA connection method, the TA doesn't "tune" what is coming out of the OUT port (that I'm aware of, unless it applies here). Whatever spectrum is going to IN, should be coming out of OUT (up to at least 860MHz).

I'll file this under "possible exception to the rules", for future reference. But, I always advise against using the inline coax method for TAs, MoCA or not, anyway. This allows being able to pull the power to Cisco TAs, without mattering that the OUT port would go dead, since the equalizing amplifier doesn't have a bypass for power loss events. By not using it, I can pull TA power and the cablecard will resume control of mapping/tuning what isn't SDV (takes about 5 minutes). Then, upon restoring power, there's no interruption as the TA boots, establishes the USB link, then the TA takes over both linear and SDV.

It sounds like some Motorola TAs must only snag the SDV control. I used to (a long while back) think it worked that way with My Cisco TAs, only to see it posted otherwise on here, then verified for myself that all the mapping and tuning requests were being processed by the TA, so long as powered, and the USB link was connected, regardless of inline or splitter method.

What model(s) and other specifics might I want to take note of on this?


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## XIBM (Mar 9, 2013)

I believe when the TA is powered, connected and sinked it provides all the channel mapping for frequency used to the Tivo. If a requested channel is not up on SDV the TA sends a request to the head end to provide the channel and tells the Tivo to put up a "channel available soon" message, when the head end provides the channel and frequency used, the TA gives the info to Tivo which checks the CC for authorization (this may happen first) and if authorized displays the channel.

With no TA the CC provides the channel mapping but it does not change as no SDV. The CC also provides authorization.


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

Tobashadow said:


> With it on a splitter the tivo is using the usb to tell the TA what to do but the cable card has a direct line bypassing the TA.
> 
> This makes it so the only thing the TA does is request the SDV channel appear on your local hub. Since not every channel is SDV, if the channel is already on your local hub the cable card handles it like you didn't have a TA in the way.
> 
> Both of mine are motorola and I can see a marked difference between the two boxes, one with it on a separate line and one using the pass thru. My setup is using a 4way splitter at the head end with two separate lines to each box location so the signal is the same on all four.


With the acknowledgment that your individual performance is better split vs. unsplit, I have to say that's it's decidedly not true that the "split" option results in the CC handling the mapping. Ever since the all-digital switch in Madison, I've been having problems with the tuning adapters (to the tune of 3 truck rolls and eventually just unplugging them and accepting the loss of a couple of channels) because they have been blocking out channels we do, in fact, receive. Unplug the TA by your favorite method (entirely, or just by pulling the USB out) and the CC mapping immediately brings those channels back. We've always had splitters in the mix for this purpose, at Charter's recommendation. This is all Motorola equipment.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

FrodoB said:


> With the acknowledgment that your individual performance is better split vs. unsplit, I have to say that's it's decidedly not true that the "split" option results in the CC handling the mapping. Ever since the all-digital switch in Madison, I've been having problems with the tuning adapters (to the tune of 3 truck rolls and eventually just unplugging them and accepting the loss of a couple of channels) because they have been blocking out channels we do, in fact, receive. Unplug the TA by your favorite method (entirely, or just by pulling the USB out) and the CC mapping immediately brings those channels back. We've always had splitters in the mix for this purpose, at Charter's recommendation. This is all Motorola equipment.


I think you nailed it. The Motorola TAs are likely just messing up the signals, which should be coming though, in a manner not requiring the splitter method. But, that's just not the way TAs with coax OUT ports ended-up, regardless of brand. A few will swear by the coax OUT port being the cure-all for TA ailments, or say it works well for them. The majority seem to wind up on here getting told to try the splitter method, and then things get better. Some TAs don't have coax OUT ports. Too bad they all weren't made like that, IMO.


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