# Game of Thrones S5E04 "Sons of the Harpy" 05/03/2015



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I thought the season has been building to something decent, but this wasn't decent...it was F'ing amazing. We're on the verge of 4 wars

Stannis vs the Bolton's (prelude to Stannis vs Kings Landing)
King Tommen vs The Sparrows
Daenerys vs The Sons of the Harpy
Jamie vs Ellaria (potentially a prelude to Lannisters vs Martels)

Nice to see that even now in season 5 we're still continuing to get some more backstory...specifically Lyanna and Rhaegar (love that look on Littlefingers face, like..."yeah....'kidnapped'(wink wink)". Then we also had a tiny glimpse more backstory with Stannis making a comment about Jon's mother not being a whore.

So I'm a little unsure. Greyworm and Barristan Selmy took some pretty good hits there. Has either of them survived? It looked like Greyworm's was a knife to the chest. He may be a goner. Selmy looked like he took a sword to the calf, but I think it appeared Greyworm saved him before the throat was slit, so I think he may live. Though if he's dead, I think that certainly sets the stage for Jorah to return to Dany's side (hate to see Selmy go, though...I really like him)

Loved Jamie suddenly discovering (on accident) he can use his iron hand as an asset. That, and that "that one should be slow enough for you" comment.

I'm sure there's a ton more to say. That episode was like information overload. I can't even remember everything that went on.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I think Selmy is a goner. That exchange he had with Dany was too foretelling.

The introduction of the Sand Snakes bothered me a little. Seemed forced.

And I loved the new Staniss with his Princess. I was hoping he hold her back.

Speaking of Stannis...his witch really (almost) got Jon to forget his vows!


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

LordKronos said:


> I thought the season has been building to something decent, but this wasn't decent...it was F'ing amazing. We're on the verge of 4 wars
> 
> Stannis vs the Bolton's (prelude to Stannis vs Kings Landing)
> 
> ...


Grey worm took a dagger in the ribs under the arm and Selmy took one to the chest. I think grey mike make it but Selmy is a goner.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I think Selmy is a goner. That exchange he had with Dany was too foretelling.


Somehow I didn't absorb most of that convesation the first time. I just rewatched that one part. I'm not sure I saw it the same way as you. Though I guess I missed that as another bit of backstory in this episode. And it sort of follows up the conversation of Rhaegar supposedly kidnapping Lyanna with the idea that Rhaegar was actually a very kind, generous person...probably not the sort that might be up for a kidnapping.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Selmy took one to the chest.


Oh crap. I guess I saw that, but I was so on the edge of my seat for the nearly(?)-slit throat that it didn't sink in. Though that sort of takes all the drama away from Greyworm saving him just before his throat is slit. Oh yeah....he didn't die that way....but I he still died. Kind of odd.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stark said:


> I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.


I thought that at first, but then it occurred to me that I think the whole thing before was that she had to use the bloodline of a king for the magic (which is why she went after Gendry).


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

My only complaint is that the Unsullied, for being such feared fighters, really sucked. Instead of fighting like an organized military unit, they fought like street fighters, and they got beaten by a force not even twice their size. 

Barristan Selmy, an old man, unarmored, gave a better showing than all but Grey Worm. 

For all we hear about how awesome the Unsullied are as fighters, they were just bad in this. No use of the Phalanx manuever (which they've shown previously), no working in teams, no taking advantage of the narrow space to control the battle. There were enough of them in there that they could have formed a line and blocked the width of the alley. But no, they break formation and fight like street urchins. Pathetic.

The myth of the mighty Unsullied took quite a hit here.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Speaking of Stannis...his witch really (almost) got Jon to forget his vows!


Had she used Ygritte's line sooner, she would have succeeded. But she knew that. Now Jon is intrigued and she'll have him soon enough.



stark said:


> I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.


I don't think there's any strategic purpose to her visit to Jon. I just think she was horny.



Ereth said:


> My only complaint is that the Unsullied, for being such feared fighters, really sucked. Instead of fighting like an organized military unit, they fought like street fighters, and they got beaten by a force not even twice their size.
> 
> Barristan Selmy, an old man, unarmored, gave a better showing than all but Grey Worm.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. When I saw it was 8-10 Unsullied against 20-25 Sons of the Harpy, I thought the Unsullied would quickly take them out.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Once Tyrion figured out that his captor was Jorah, who used to be an informant for Varys, why didn't Tyrion tell Jorah that he was traveling with Varys and that the three of them would all be better off approaching Dany together?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think there's any strategic purpose to her visit to Jon. I just think she was horny.


I doubt that. I think everything she does has a purpose. Probably she was trying to get Jon to break his vows and then get him to give up the Black and go with Stannis to Winterfell.

Also, it is not certain that Jon has no king's blood. They even hinted in this episode that his parentage may be other than what it has been formerly assumed to be.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Once Tyrion figured out that his captor was Jorah, who used to be an informant for Varys, why didn't Tyrion tell Jorah that he was traveling with Varys and that the three of them would all be better off approaching Dany together?


Huh? Daenerys exiled Mormont for spying on her, and you suggest he approach her with his former spymaster and say can't we all be friends?

Or did you mean that Tyrion could betray Varys to Mormont and Daenerys so that Daenerys can have her revenge on Varys?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Huh? Daenerys exiled Mormont for spying on her, and you suggest he approach her with his former spymaster and say can't we all be friends?
> 
> Or did you mean that Tyrion could betray Varys to Mormont and Daenerys so that Daenerys can have her revenge on Varys?


Varys is already on his way to offer his services and his loyalty to Daenyerys because Varys has secretly been supporting her all along, but it may take a bit of convincing to get Dany to see that. Tyrion just pointed out to Jorah why Dany may not welcome him back with open arms. Basically, none of the three of them would be immediately welcomed by Dany, but I think their chances would improve if they all showed up together with a unified story.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Varys is already on his way to offer his services and his loyalty to Daenyerys because Varys has secretly been supporting her all along, but it may take *a bit* of convincing to get Dany to see that.


Master of understatement.

It would take a lot more than "a bit" of convincing to get Mormont to take his former spymaster to see Daenerys. Tyrion was smart not to mention it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Totally agree. When I saw it was 8-10 Unsullied against 20-25 Sons of the Harpy, I thought the Unsullied would quickly take them out.


It appeared to me like they gave chase into an ambush and were taken by surprise. That's a powerful advantage to the Sons of the Harpy.

Daeny may also not be enforcing the sort of discipline that the unsullied's former slavers did. Maybe their skills have begun to atrophy.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Dany's gonna be pissssssssed


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Somehow I didn't absorb most of that convesation the first time. I just rewatched that one part. I'm not sure I saw it the same way as you. Though I guess I missed that as another bit of backstory in this episode. And it sort of follows up the conversation of Rhaegar supposedly kidnapping Lyanna with the idea that Rhaegar was actually a very kind, generous person...probably not the sort that might be up for a kidnapping.


What I meant was that they had a conversation that shows how close they've become. So as to make his death a bigger impact on her.



DevdogAZ said:


> Had she used Ygritte's line sooner, she would have succeeded. But she knew that. Now Jon is intrigued and she'll have him soon enough.


If anything that spooked him.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I thought that at first, but then it occurred to me that I think the whole thing before was that she had to use the bloodline of a king for the magic (which is why she went after Gendry).


The "bloodline of a king" magic that she used Gendry for was the spell to kill Rob, Joffrey and Walder Frey. The shadow creature was created by her having sex with Stannis.

You could argue that it only worked because Stannis has the bloodline of a king, but they never specifically said that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stark said:


> I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.





LordKronos said:


> I thought that at first, but then it occurred to me that I think the whole thing before was that she had to use the bloodline of a king for the magic (which is why she went after Gendry).


I think she absolutely was trying to create another baby shadow, she even said so ("hinted so" would be more accurate). Now I'm more convinced than ever that Jon is Raegar and Lyanna's son. Especially with the new hint from Stannis.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tywin was right on the money when he told Cersei that she is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. In fact, she is as dumb as a pile of rocks if she thinks she can control the High Sparrow and his army. I give it a couple of months and she and Tommen will be in a cell right next to Loras.

Question: So Papa Tyrell is going to meet an unfortunate "accident" on his way to Braavos (at the hands of Slynt). That much is certain. With Loras in prison, who is next in line for house Tyrell?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> (potentially a prelude to Lannisters vs Martels)


I followed everything but this. Why the Martels? They're not the one who have Marcella, are they?


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## chronatog7 (Aug 26, 2004)

So Jon Snow = Targaryen


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I followed everything but this. Why the Martels? They're not the one who have Marcella, are they?


Cersei is about to kill Papa Martell (sorry, don't know his name) and put Loras in jail.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> My only complaint is that the Unsullied, for being such feared fighters, really sucked. Instead of fighting like an organized military unit, they fought like street fighters, and they got beaten by a force not even twice their size.
> 
> Barristan Selmy, an old man, unarmored, gave a better showing than all but Grey Worm.
> 
> ...


Totally agree here. Even the location of the ambush favored the Unsullied as the walls should have helped keep the Harpies in a funnel and not swarm with their superior numbers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Question: So Papa Tyrell is going to meet an unfortunate "accident" on his way to Braavos (at the hands of Slynt).


That would be quite a trick, since he'd have to come back from the dead, put his head back on, and travel several thousand miles to do it!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That would be quite a trick, since he'd have to come back from the dead, put his head back on, and travel several thousand miles to do it!


those darn names...what is the King's guard's name? he's on Arya's list and is headed for Bravoos


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Cersei is about to kill Papa Martell (sorry, don't know his name) and put Loras in jail.


Ah, OK. I thought it was related to Jamie's rescue mission.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I followed everything but this. Why the Martels? They're not the one who have Marcella, are they?





Anubys said:


> Cersei is about to kill Papa Martell (sorry, don't know his name) and put Loras in jail.


quoting instead of editing...

I'm not getting the names right today...Cersei is going to kill papa Tyrell, not papa Martell.

The Martells are the people of Dorne, right?

And the King's guard's name...is it Meryn or something like that?

I think I need to get more sleep!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Ah, OK. I thought it was related to Jamie's rescue mission.


ha ha...I should have refreshed before posting...see my post above. I think the original post you replied to had the names wrong.

And I compounded it by doing the same!

So, Dorne/Martells willl start a war with the Lannister because the Sands Amazon Women will make sure of it (and Jamie doesn't help).

Tyrells will start a war because of what Cersei is doing to them

Stannis is already at war.

High Sparrow is spreading his power and influence

And there is always Danny


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dany is about to get a huge infusion of top-level advisors in Varys and Tyrion (and even the return of Jorah). Will she be smart enough to accept them?


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Everyone needs to back away from the thread and have another cup of coffee.

OK, so the Martels ARE the ones who have Marcella. I was confusing Martel/Tyrell.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Dany is about to get a huge infusion of top-level advisors in Varys and Tyrion (and even the return of Jorah). Will she be smart enough to accept them?


I bet there will be some wacky hijinks before she does.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> quoting instead of editing...
> 
> I'm not getting the names right today...Cersei is going to kill papa Tyrell, not papa Martell.
> 
> ...


Yes...Tyrell's are the family from Highgarden (Margaery and Loras's family name). The Martell's are from Dorne (Oberyn and Doran's family name).

And the kings guard is Meryn Trant.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> I bet there will be done wacky hijinks before she does.


LOL...yep...you need some coffee


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Can someone remind me who the Harpy's are and why they are fighting in those silly gold masks?

I thought - sorry I don't know his name - Queen Margery's brother being captured was - - - dumb. He's in the middle of practicing sword fighting - presumably with friends - and they don't fight back nor does he lift up his sword to defend himself?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Cainebj said:


> Can someone remind me who the Harpy's are and why they are fighting in those silly gold masks?


They are the former masters of Mereen who are rebelling against Dany because they want things back to the way they were.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> ha ha...I should have refreshed before posting...see my post above. I think the original post you replied to had the names wrong.
> 
> And I compounded it by doing the same!
> 
> ...


Yeah, so the Lannister downfall is going to be fairly swift, since this seems to be all coming to a head at the same time. I'm not sure how large this Sparrows thing is, but it looks like it will be able to cause them some fair amount of internal issues. So at the same time the Sparrows are chipping away at them from the inside and causing internal confusion, they'll have Dorne, Highgarden, and Stannis (presumably with The North supporting him) all hitting them around the same time. They'll be WAY worse off than they were last time when it was just Stannis and Rob they had to worry about, and the only reason they survived that time was because, in that battle, Highgarden came to their rescue...not as their enemy.

Cercie and Tywin really botched the whole thing up. It's all unravelling because of their hatred for Tyrion.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Yes...Tyrell's are the family from Highgarden (Margaery and Loras's family name). The Martell's are from Dorne (Oberyn and Doran's family name).


Westeros is like everyplace else...southerners are hard to tell apart. 


Anubys said:


> They are the former masters of Mereen who are rebelling against Dany because they want things back to the way they were.


Or more likely, people who work for the masters, and maybe even some slaves (like the gladiators) who miss the good old days. I doubt the masters themselves are that martially adept!


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think she absolutely was trying to create another baby shadow, she even said so ("hinted so" would be more accurate). Now I'm more convinced than ever that Jon is Raegar and Lyanna's son. Especially with the new hint from Stannis.


I thought she was looking to create another shadow monster too since she slept with Stannis but only took Gendry's blood when he was held prisoner. There certainly seems to be more to Jon Snow than meets the eye, and I thought it never made sense that an honorable man like Ned Stark would have fathered a bastard child.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

My prediction is that Ser Selmy is going to die but that Grey Worm willl survive and be nursed to health by Dany's interpreter (forget her name).

Dany and the interpreter will finally find out what's under there!


Totally changing topics, I always get a chuckle when I see Bolton's fat wife. What a piece of work that guy is!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Cainebj said:


> I thought - sorry I don't know his name - Queen Margery's brother being captured was - - - dumb. He's in the middle of practicing sword fighting - presumably with friends - and they don't fight back nor does he lift up his sword to defend himself?


That's Loray Tyrell, and hes, her sister. And although he's a fairly good knight, I'm not sure he an his training partner could take on that many. Then again...he's armored, they aren't as far as I recall...and they appear to him to be a bunch of random thugs, rather than appearing to be the queen-mother's soldiers, so he shouldn't even get the impression that his nobility should give him any safety if he surrenders.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Totally changing topics, I always get a chuckle when I see Bolton's fat wife.


cha-ching$$$$


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Did everyone notice that Cersei did receive the response from Littlefinger and that the response is what precipitated the raid on his whorehouse?

Littlefinger says he is going to King's Landing. So that is another war starting against the Lannisters (though one not fought with soldiers).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Did everyone notice that Cersei did receive the response from Littlefinger and that the response is what precipitated the raid on his whorehouse?
> 
> Littlefinger says he is going to King's Landing. So that is another war starting against the Lannisters (though one not fought with soldiers).


Initially, that's what I thought....it was revenge for Littlefinger's reply. I thought he was the [evil, vile, or whatever the word she used was] man she was referring to, but then it turned out to be Loras. I think Littlefinger's brothel just turned out to be collateral damage. Sick the Sparrons on perverted Loras and thats open game for them to go after all the perverts.

At this point, I don't think Cersei suspects anything about littlefinger. If she did, I think Littlefinger would know it and would be smart enough to stay away.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Robin said:


> I followed everything but this. Why the Martels? They're not the one who have Marcella, are they?


Yes, the Martell family rules Dorne and have Mrycella.

Oberyn, who fought the mountain, was Oberyn Martell, and the younger brother of Doran Martell, ruler of Dorne.

Myrcella is promised to be married to Trystan Martell, Doran's son.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Robin said:


> Ah, OK. I thought it was related to Jamie's rescue mission.


He means Cersei sent Meryn Trant with Mace Tyrell. The Tyrells and Martells hate each other. Not related.

Jaime's mission is to the Martells.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> quoting instead of editing...
> 
> I'm not getting the names right today...Cersei is going to kill papa Tyrell, not papa Martell.
> 
> ...


Or what he said.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Yeah, so the Lannister downfall is going to be fairly swift, since this seems to be all coming to a head at the same time. I'm not sure how large this Sparrows thing is, but it looks like it will be able to cause them some fair amount of internal issues. So at the same time the Sparrows are chipping away at them from the inside and causing internal confusion, they'll have Dorne, Highgarden, and Stannis (presumably with The North supporting him) all hitting them around the same time. They'll be WAY worse off than they were last time when it was just Stannis and Rob they had to worry about, and the only reason they survived that time was because, in that battle, Highgarden came to their rescue...not as their enemy.
> 
> Cercie and Tywin really botched the whole thing up. It's all unravelling because of their hatred for Tyrion.


My thought is that these Sparrows are sort of the Fundamentalists of today. Their purging of Littlefinger's brothel and taking Loras for being Gay and so forth. If they get power by doing away with the Lannisters, are they going to start a religious fundamentalist regime?

And my other thought on this possibility. Could the Tyrells be working with the High Sparrow on this to seize control? Think about their role in getting rid of Joffrey. Now they have Tyrell as a queen with a very weak child king and Cersie's power almost completely diminished and Jamie out of the picture for awhile. This would be a perfect time for them to strike.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Ereth said:


> My only complaint is that the Unsullied, for being such feared fighters, really sucked. Instead of fighting like an organized military unit, they fought like street fighters, and they got beaten by a force not even twice their size.
> 
> Barristan Selmy, an old man, unarmored, gave a better showing than all but Grey Worm.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, usually Benioff & Weiss get this right and here they got it so very wrong it took me out of the storyline last night. Having the Unsullied get caught in bad situations (like at the brothel) makes sense, even having them get killed by the Harpy is plausible, but not like it was shown with such a small group of non-soldiers against them. It was said earlier that the Unsullied were easily worth tens of other fighters, historically 3000 Unsullied defeated 20,000 Dothraki defending Qohor! Yet barely outnumbered by non-soldiers they were defeated in closed quarters? Please.

Other than that it was another solid episode, really enjoying how they are handling Jon Snow and Stanis and think that how they are positioning Sansa is very interested and better than the books (so far).


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

All this discussion of Dorne, and the various wars that are coming, and nobody remembers the scene where we learn that Dorne was the only country that was not defeated by the Targaeryns and their dragons? I know, they didn't put that line in the "Previously on" portion of the show, but it strikes me that we've been told that because it's going to be important some day. Chekovs gun and all that.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I thought that at first, but then it occurred to me that I think the whole thing before was that she had to use the bloodline of a king for the magic (which is why she went after Gendry).


Which doesn't necessarily preclude Jon.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> All this discussion of Dorne, and the various wars that are coming, and nobody remembers the scene where we learn that Dorne was the only country that was not defeated by the Targaeryns and their dragons? I know, they didn't put that line in the "Previously on" portion of the show, but it strikes me that we've been told that because it's going to be important some day. Chekovs gun and all that.


I do remember that from quite a while ago, I'm just not sure that it's immediately relevant to anything we learned from this episode.

Edit:
but as far as the wars coming, I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so Stannis and Dorne could become allies...as long as Dorne agrees not to stand in the way of Stannis being The One True King™. If they could get over that, then (assuming Dany gets her dragons back under control) perhaps Dorne can help Stannis fend off Dany later on.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> All this discussion of Dorne, and the various wars that are coming, and nobody remembers the scene where we learn that Dorne was the only country that was not defeated by the Targaeryns and their dragons? I know, they didn't put that line in the "Previously on" portion of the show, but it strikes me that we've been told that because it's going to be important some day. Chekovs gun and all that.


I will rewatch tonight...when was this mentioned?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I will rewatch tonight...when was this mentioned?


Not in this episode. Much earlier in the series.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I will rewatch tonight...when was this mentioned?


Season 4, episode 3. In a conversation between Tywin and Oberyn, where he asks Oberyn to be one of the judges at Tyrion's trial.

Edit:
heres a video (warning...NSFW...the video starts in Littlefingers brothel)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Sorry. I misunderstood Ereth's post. I thought he meant it was mentioned again during this episode and I didn't recall that conversation. My fault for reading quickly!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Yeah, sorry, no, it wasn't in this weeks episode, and not particularly relevant to it, but it seemed people were discussing possible match ups for future wars, and since Dorne and Danaerys were both being discussed, thought I would remind people of that particular quirk. 

The whole "conquered all of Westeros with dragons" bit is compelling, with Dany coming back with Dragons. But in the back of my head there's this warning that it didn't work in Dorne before (and they haven't told us why, that I remember).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> The whole "conquered all of Westeros with dragons" bit is compelling, with Dany coming back with Dragons. But in the back of my head there's this warning that it didn't work in Dorne before (and they haven't told us why, that I remember).


No, they haven't told us why. My guess is that Dorne, being right on the water, had access to lots of eels.

(if you kid watches How to Train Your Dragon as much as mine does, you'll get it)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> No, they haven't told us why. My guess is that Dorne, being right on the water, had access to lots of eels.
> 
> (if you kid watches How to Train Your Dragon as much as mine does, you'll get it)


I seem to recall that there was something about the area being full of mountains and deserts with lots of places to hide and raid. Kind of like Afganistan or Yemen are.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I seem to recall that there was something about the area being full of mountains and deserts with lots of places to hide and raid. Kind of like Afganistan or Yemen are.


I took it there was more to it than just the particular geography...something specifically the Dornish knew. That's why Tywin was interested in forging an alliance with them. If the "secret" was just "we have better terrain", then that's not going to help Tywin much (unless it's just the case that Tywin thought there was more to the secret than there really was)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> I took it there was more to it than just the particular geography...something specifically the Dornish knew. That's why Tywin was interested in forging an alliance with them. If the "secret" was just "we have better terrain", then that's not going to help Tywin much (unless it's just the case that Tywin thought there was more to the secret than there really was)


Tywin was more interested in the Tyrells than the Martells, right?

Be that as it may, both are in the south, very rich, have big armies and will have more food than anyone else with WINTER IS COMING 

Edited to add: Lannisters were going broke...he was trying to make alliances with anyone who had money


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm guessing that Cercei will soon learn why you don't give power to a fanatic.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm guessing that Cercei will soon learn why you don't give power to a fanatic.


Yeah, she was lucky Tommen didn't get killed. She put him in harm's way when she told him only the High Sparrow can free Loras.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Yeah, she was lucky Tommen didn't get killed. She put him in harm's way when she told him only the High Sparrow can free Loras.


I was *very* surprised she sent him out there! It seemed out of character. She's a horrible, terrible person, but she does seem to love her children. Didn't someone (Tyrion?) once say that was one of her few redeeming qualities?

Perhaps she didn't realize the danger he was going to encounter? Or did she know him well enough that she knew he would immediately fold and come back home? I bet she wouldn't have tried that with Joffrey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I was *very* surprised she sent him out there! It seemed out of character. She's a horrible, terrible person, but she does seem to love her children. Didn't someone (Tyrion?) once say that was one of her few redeeming qualities?
> 
> Perhaps she didn't realize the danger he was going to encounter? Or did she know him well enough that she knew he would immediately fold and come back home? I bet she wouldn't have tried that with Joffrey.


In her defense, a king should summon anyone he wants to see, not go to them. So maybe she expected him to know that much!

Margery was also an idiot. She should have gently steered him towards the right course of action instead of acting like a fool by storming in and pounting out.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Margery was also an idiot. She should have gently steered him towards the right course of action instead of acting like a fool by storming in and pounting out.


Oh, I very much agree! She was pissed and obviously not thinking clearly. It was very unlike her to lose her composure in that way. She is usually much smarter than that.

Poor Tommen....that entire exchange between he and Margeary and the one between he and Cersei just really showed how much of a little boy he still is and that he is very much out of his league. The two women in his life are going to rip him apart.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Ereth said:


> My only complaint is that the Unsullied, for being such feared fighters, really sucked. Instead of fighting like an organized military unit, they fought like street fighters, and they got beaten by a force not even twice their size.
> 
> Barristan Selmy, an old man, unarmored, gave a better showing than all but Grey Worm.
> 
> ...


Yep. That immediately bothered me as well in the corridor fight.
The Unsullied had to fight _*dumb*_ to lose to that few Harpies in that location. (We have secure flanks and enough men to form shield walls, exploit the superior reach of our spears and protection of our shields, and gut anyone who gets too close. But where's the fun in that. Up close Free-for-all everybody! :down

The other fight, where the 2 Unsullied were caught more out in the open was a much better setup for their quick defeat.

But to be clear, I don't object to the Unsullied losing per-se. In the right situation they're plenty vulnerable. But in _this_ case I'm pretty annoyed with the fight direction and/or the location picked for them to lose at; _because_ it required them to fight particularly stupid.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> In her defense, a king should summon anyone he wants to see, not go to them. So maybe she expected him to know that much!
> 
> Margery was also an idiot. She should have gently steered him towards the right course of action instead of acting like a fool by storming in and pounting out.


She realized that halfway through her tirade and changed course.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> But to be clear, I don't object to the Unsullied losing per-se. In the right situation they're plenty vulnerable. But in _this_ case I'm pretty annoyed with the fight direction and/or the location picked for them to lose at; _because_ it required them to fight particularly stupid.


Agreed wholeheartedly. A good strategy, to align your strengths with their weaknesses, would be an understandable loss and a good scene.

This wasn't that. In fact, it's the opposite of that, as it put the Unsullied in a position of strength, and they still lost.

You could argue they didn't have leadership to command them, but Grey Worm was there. That's his job.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

SO yelled at the TV "what is wrong with you?! You're supposed the ultimate warriors! Where are your balls...oh..uhm sorry that was insensitive..."


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

LOL!!! :up:


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Totally agree with Ereth. I think it was very sloppy of the writers that the Unsullied are only invincible when it's convenient for them to be. :down:


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Agreed, the picking off 1-2 at a time, ok. But the ambush? not believable.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> Agreed, the picking off 1-2 at a time, ok. But the ambush? not believable.


Heck, have then charge into that same hallway and go down in a hail of arrows or crossbow bolts before they can react. _That's_ an ambush.

There are lots of ways to let them lose without them being complete morons. (Ok, arguably chasing a provocation into a trap was itself stupid; but a much more believable level of stupidity)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I can't help but wonder if that scene wasn't the result of a Walking Dead-like disconnect between the writers and director..? As in, the director didn't understand the scene and mis-staged it?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

stark said:


> I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.


I was happy that Jon rejected her, but since you put it that way, I hope he goes through with it. :up:

I can't believe Littlefinger is leaving Sansa there alone. As we said last week, it would be odd if he didn't know what Ramsay is like, but at least he could have warned her to take a knife to bed with her.



stark said:


> The "bloodline of a king" magic that she used Gendry for was the spell to kill Rob, Joffrey and Walder Frey. The shadow creature was created by her having sex with Stannis.


Is Walder Frey dead? I don't remember that.



Shaunnick said:


> He means Cersei sent Meryn Trant with Mace Tyrell. The Tyrells and Martells hate each other. Not related.
> 
> Jaime's mission is to the Martells.


It seems like the Martels hate everybody. They used to get along with the Targarians, but then Rhaegar skipped out on the queen--kidnapping or not--and now they hate them too.



Ereth said:


> All this discussion of Dorne, and the various wars that are coming, and nobody remembers the scene where we learn that Dorne was the only country that was not defeated by the Targaeryns and their dragons? I know, they didn't put that line in the "Previously on" portion of the show, but it strikes me that we've been told that because it's going to be important some day. Chekovs gun and all that.


The Martels and Targarians intermarried--I think the first time the Targarians married anyone but themselves--did they hold off the dragons, or just cave and make a deal? The King seems like he would be good at surrender. 

I wonder if it occurred to Cersei that her new allies would think Tommen was a bastard? Probably not....


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Yep. That immediately bothered me as well in the corridor fight.
> The Unsullied had to fight _*dumb*_ to lose to that few Harpies in that location. (We have secure flanks and enough men to form shield walls, exploit the superior reach of our spears and protection of our shields, and gut anyone who gets too close. But where's the fun in that. Up close Free-for-all everybody! :down


I was bothered by it too, but I don't think they had secure flanks - there were SOHs on both sides of the outnumbered group of Unsullied, because they ran into an ambush. So they couldn't do a proper Phalanx, where the shields are stacked on top of each other against a foe on one side of the line.

But still, with their spears and shields, they should have been able to form up into a circle - or more accurately, a two-sided wall - and make it very difficult for the SOH to get in close enough to use their short swords.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Yep. That immediately bothered me as well in the corridor fight.
> The Unsullied had to fight _*dumb*_ to lose to that few Harpies in that location. (We have secure flanks and enough men to form shield walls, exploit the superior reach of our spears and protection of our shields, and gut anyone who gets too close. But where's the fun in that. Up close Free-for-all everybody! :down
> 
> The other fight, where the 2 Unsullied were caught more out in the open was a much better setup for their quick defeat.
> ...


Essentially this means that the writing and the directing for this scene was poorly done. Not having read the books, it's hard for me to know the original intent.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I think she absolutely was trying to create another baby shadow, she even said so ("hinted so" would be more accurate). Now I'm more convinced than ever that Jon is Raegar and Lyanna's son. Especially with the new hint from Stannis.


Remind me who is Raegar? Ser said he was Dany's brother but it's her father, the mad king?

Which are the sand people? The Dorne guys that Bronn killed or the women that Oberyn's sister is hanging with?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Is Walder Frey dead? I don't remember that.


It wasn't Walder Frey (who holds the Twins but isn't really contending for King) but rather Theon Greyjoys father, Balon Greyjoy, he of Greyjoys Rebellion, who had broken away to declare the Iron Islands independent again once Robert Baratheon died.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MikeAndrews said:


> Remind me who is Raegar? Ser said he was Dany's brother but it's her father, the mad king?
> 
> Which are the sand people? The Dorne guys that Bronn killed or the women that Oberyn's sister is hanging with?


Rhaegar is Dany and Viserys' older brother.

Sand is Dorne's version on bastard surnames. Snow is for northern bastards. Other regions have different surnames.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Remind me who is Raegar? Ser said he was Dany's brother but it's her father, the mad king?
> 
> Which are the sand people? The Dorne guys that Bronn killed or the women that Oberyn's sister is hanging with?





gossamer88 said:


> Rhaegar is Dany and Viserys' older brother.
> 
> Sand is Dorne's version on bastard surnames. Snow is for northern bastards. Other regions have different surnames.


The Mad King was Aerys.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Is Walder Frey dead? I don't remember that.


Well, two things. First, Melisandre cast the spell not on Walder Frey, but on Balon Greyjoy. That said, the other two people (Rob and Joffrey) both ended up dead, so I guess it's up to you to decide if they died because of her spell, or if it was just coincidence. If because of her spell, then perhaps Balon is dead too. I don't think we've seen him since the season 3 finale, when he got Theon's favorite toy in a box.

As for Walder, I don't think we've seen him since the same episode, but unlike Balon, I don't think we have any reason at all to suspect he may be dead.

Edit: ah, that figures...I take a break to eat dinner in the middle of composing my post and someone beats me to it.



> The Martels and Targarians intermarried--I think the first time the Targarians married anyone but themselves--did they hold off the dragons, or just cave and make a deal? The King seems like he would be good at surrender.


I've only got a vague recollection of this, and it may not even be from the show (I'm not a book reader, but I've seen a few "history of house X" video's on youtube, or it could have been from HBOs viewers guide), so:



Spoiler



If i remember correctly, the holding off of the dragons occurred several hundred years prior, during Aegon the Conquerer's conquest and subsequent rein. I believe that would have predated any Targaryen-Martel marriage


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

I did like the Jamie / Bronn sequences this episode, especially the conversations related to Jamie's daught.. err niece and Cersei...  Bronn knows and Jamie knows he knows, but continues to not admit anything related to it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if it occurred to Cersei that her new allies would think Tommen was a bastard? Probably not....


It wasn't the Faith Militant calling Tommen a bastard, it was the peasant townsfolk.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> It wasn't the Faith Militant calling Tommen a bastard, it was the peasant townsfolk.


Yes, I wanted to discuss that scene. Did we know that the talk of incest had reached the common folk? Was Joffrey ever confronted in such a way? I do not remember. I also wondered if Tommen had heard the whisperings before or if this was his first inkling of the rumors? I'd love to see him ask his mother about it.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Jstkiddn said:


> Yes, I wanted to discuss that scene. Did we know that the talk of incest had reached the common folk? Was Joffrey ever confronted in such a way? I do not remember. I also wondered if Tommen had heard the whisperings before or if this was his first inkling of the rumors? I'd love to see him ask his mother about it.


It has reached the common folk, yes. I highly doubt Tommen has heard anything, he's so naive.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Are there only three Sand Snakes? For some reason, I thought I had heard/read that there were a lot more.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Are there only three Sand Snakes? For some reason, I thought I had heard/read that there were a lot more.


Probably not for discussion in this thread, but your question can probably be answered by googling "sand snakes" and reading the wiki page regarding them.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I'm not allowed to answer this question


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Are there only three Sand Snakes? For some reason, I thought I had heard/read that there were a lot more.


Those 3 are the primary ones and the only ones relevant to the story.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Anubys said:


> They are the former masters of Mereen who are rebelling against Dany because they want things back to the way they were.


That's what I thought but they seem to be pretty young and fit to be masters.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I can't help but wonder if that scene wasn't the result of a Walking Dead-like disconnect between the writers and director..? As in, the director didn't understand the scene and mis-staged it?


Not to bomb this thread with talk about another show - or to reveal any spoilers about The Walking Dead in a non-Walking Dead thread - but what Walking Dead-like disconnect are you talking about?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cainebj said:


> Not to bomb this thread with talk about another show - or to reveal any spoilers about The Walking Dead in a non-Walking Dead thread - but what Walking Dead-like disconnect are you talking about?


Walking Dead often has scenes where there seems to be a disconnect between the writers and the production team...e.g, two people are standing face-to-face in an open field, and a zombie sneaks up on them. As if somewhere in the chain from the writer to the location scout to the director, what had to happen got lost so they ended up in a place where what happens doesn't really make sense.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

A few observations after rewatching:



Cainebj said:


> I thought - sorry I don't know his name - Queen Margery's brother being captured was - - - dumb. He's in the middle of practicing sword fighting - presumably with friends - and they don't fight back nor does he lift up his sword to defend himself?


Actually, by the time the approach him, he's already handed his sword and shield over to someone else. The surround him quickly before he even realizes what's going on.



stark said:


> I'm guessing that the Red Witch was trying to use Jon to create another shadow monster to kill the Boltons like the Stannis shadow monster killed Remly.


As she was seducing him, Melisandre talked about "the power to create life, the power to create light, the power to cast shadows".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Remind me who is Raegar? Ser said he was Dany's brother but it's her father, the mad king?
> 
> Which are the sand people? The Dorne guys that Bronn killed or the women that Oberyn's sister is hanging with?


Others have answered but let me give you a complete answer (I have not read the books!).

Raegar is the son of the mad king. He was married to Elia Martell, sister of Oberyn (the one who the Mountain crushed in the fight for Tyrion's life) and also sister to insertnamehere! the leader of the house of Dorne. Oberyn's lover is the one who met the 3 hot girls (2 of which seem to be her daughters). They are called sand because they are all bastards from Dorne. All 3 girls are daughters of Oberyn. If Oberyn had sons, we have not heard about them or seen them. He seems to have had only daughters!

Raegar had the hots for Lyanna, sister of Ned Stark and who Robert Baratheon was going to marry and who Robert was madly in love with. Legend has it that Raegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her, sparking Robert and Ned to rise up against the mad king and overthrow the Targarians. At the end of this battle, the Mountain (on orders from the Lannisters, who fought with Robert and Ned) killed all of Illia's kids (Vasery and Dany, Raegar's little brother and sister were the only ones to escape) and raped her.

Now for my own spin on things:

Littlefinger's expressions when he talked with Sansa (as well as Selmy's story to Dany about Raegar) lead me to believe that there is more to the story. Maybe Raegar didn't kidnap Lyanna after all. Maybe the kidnapping story is a history re-write. I've theorized that Jon Snow is the product of the "rape", if it was indeed a rape. If true, then Raegar didn't rape and kill Lyanna since she would have had to live at least another 9 months to give birth to Jon. Ned protected Jon from everyone's wrath by claiming jon as his own son.

Maybe Ellia is the one who killed Lyanna as a revenge, not Raegar, and started the whole war!


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Lyanna might still be alive


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

One of the Sand Snakes was pretty hot.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> One of the Sand Snakes was pretty hot.


I thought 2 of them were too "soft". The one with the spear certainly looked tough.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I thought 2 of them were too "soft". The one with the spear certainly looked tough.


The one with the spear looked like she could beat up Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao at the same time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> One of the Sand Snakes was pretty hot.





cheesesteak said:


> The one with the spear looked like she could beat up Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao at the same time.


I'm assuming that's the one you thought was pretty hot, right? NTTAWWT!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I thought 2 of them were too "soft". The one with the spear certainly looked tough.


She was the Whale Rider!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> and also sister to *insertnamehere*! the leader of the house of Dorne.


Doran. No, that's not a typo...it's Prince Doran Martell from Dorne. Being phonetically nearly identical probably makes it confusing.



> Oberyn's lover


She's referred to as his "paramour", and her name is Ellaria Sand



> They are called sand because they are all bastards from Dorne. All 3 girls are daughters of Oberyn. If Oberyn had sons, we have not heard about them or seen them. He seems to have had only daughters!


I seem to recall Oberyn saying he had a lot of bastards, but I don't know if that's correct or if I'm just confusing it with him mentioning that Dorne has thousands of Sands.



> At the end of this battle, the Mountain (on orders from the Lannisters, who fought with Robert and Ned) killed all of Illia's kids (Vasery and Dany, Raegar's little brother and sister were the only ones to escape) and raped her.


Then he smasher he head in, like this 



> If true, then Raegar didn't rape and kill Lyanna since she would have had to live at least another 9 months to give birth to Jon.


I don't believe it is claimed that he killed her. I took it as they believe he kidnapped her and kept her as his hostage wife. I don't believe any specific claim has been mentioned about how exactly she died.



> Ned protected Jon from everyone's wrath by claiming jon as his own son.


To be specific, I don't think it was EVERYONE's wrath. I think it was just Robert that wanted everyone with Targaryen blood killed.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Lyanna might still be alive


Unless Ned is lying, I doubt it. Season 1 Episiode 1, Robert said ned "did you have to bury her in a place like this?"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The second time I watch the show is always much more enjoyable, as I'm not stressed about missing anything. Big lump in my throat at the scene between Stannis and Shirin. I wonder what Mellisandre's plans are for Shirin because the stage is now set for a big FU from Stannis if she wants her blood.

Question: Did Mellisandre actually...ahem...ride Gandry? IOW, did she take his virginity? I ask because I wonder if a virgin with a King's blood is worth more (she can do more with) than a non-virgin (who seem to be good for making Shadow babies). It also explains it when she asked Jon if he were a virgin.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Unless Ned is lying, I doubt it. Season 1 Episiode 1, Robert said ned "did you have to bury her in a place like this?"


Speaking of which...where is Ned's head? Littlefinger gave it to Kat but she never made it back to Winterfell. Do we know what happened to it?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm assuming that's the one you thought was pretty hot, right? NTTAWWT!


Second picture down. The woman on the right, holding the knife. That's the hot one.

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-recap-s05-ep04/


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Speaking of which...where is Ned's head? Littlefinger gave it to Kat but she never made it back to Winterfell. Do we know what happened to it?


I've never heard/seen that. What season/episode did that take place?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I seem to recall Oberyn saying he had a lot of bastards, but I don't know if that's correct or if I'm just confusing it with him mentioning that Dorne has thousands of Sands.


Oberyn told Cersei that he has eight daughters.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I've never heard/seen that. What season/episode did that take place?


Season 2 Ep. 4 (I googled it...remember the scene, but not when it was) It was at Renly Baratheon's camp.

From the wiki page:



Spoiler



Baelish then meets with Catelyn Stark, who is still furious at his betrayal of her husband to his death. Baelish first tries to kindle a romance with her, saying that now they are both free, it may be that they can be together. Catelyn simply draws a dagger and demands that he stop speaking. Discouraged, he moves on to present Tyrion's offer that the Lannisters want to make a prisoner exchange with the Starks: if they release Jaime Lannister, Queen Cersei will release both Sansa Stark and Arya Stark (Baelish lies about the Lannisters having Arya). Catelyn insists that Robb would never allow the exchange, but Littlefinger tries to manipulate her love for her imprisoned daughters. As a show of good faith from Tyrion, Baelish brings forward a pair of Silent Sisters carrying a box containing the remains of Ned Stark. Deeply grieving, Catelyn tells Petyr to get out. She looks at the bones with pain, but then shuts the box with a look of resolve on her face.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Another little detail from Littlefinger's story to Sansa: Raegar beat Barristan in that duel where Raegar makes the play for Lyanna in front of Ellia.

Did Barristan let his prince win or was Raegar even better than the legendary Barristan?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Speaking of which...where is Ned's head? Littlefinger gave it to Kat but she never made it back to Winterfell. Do we know what happened to it?


Who knows. in season 2, Theon took Winterfell in episode 6. Cat returned to Rob's camp in episode 7, I believe and I don't recall her making any side stops on the way back from visiting Renly. Rob/Cat learned about Theon/Winterfell in episode 8.

As Cat was intending to return to Winterfell to care for Bran and Rickon, she probably didn't send the remains off to Winterfell ahead of her. Once she learned Theon took it, she probably didn't send anyone to take the remains back there without her. Most likely places are, either she left the remains in riverrun during the funeral, she kept the remains with her until The Red Wedding and they are in The Twins, or she gave him a burial in some undisclosed/random location.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Another little detail from Littlefinger's story to Sansa: Raegar beat Barristan in that duel where Raegar makes the play for Lyanna in front of Ellia.
> 
> Did Barristan let his prince win or was Raegar even better than the legendary Barristan?


Third option...Raegar's mare was in heat


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Second picture down. The woman on the right, holding the knife. That's the hot one.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-recap-s05-ep04/


"
Obara tells the story of the first time she met Oberyn: When he came to take his bastard daughter away to court, her mother wept, saying she was too young. "My father pointed to the spear and then to my mother's tears," she says, launching her weapon at the head of the snitching boat captain. "I made my choice long ago." SPEARS BEFORE TEARS, friends. Somebody embroider that on a pillow."

I'd love to see that up on etsy.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> Season 2 Ep. 4 (I googled it...remember the scene, but not when it was) It was at Renly Baratheon's camp.
> 
> From the wiki page:
> 
> ...


Seems to be it was just the body, no head. His head was on display for all to see in the Red Keep.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Seems to be it was just the body, no head. His head was on display for all to see in the Red Keep.


Heads only last so long before they decay. At some point they'd have to take it down. No idea when that would be.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Another little detail from Littlefinger's story to Sansa: Raegar beat Barristan in that duel where Raegar makes the play for Lyanna in front of Ellia.
> 
> Did Barristan let his prince win or was Raegar even better than the legendary Barristan?


Barristan did not let Rhaegar win, I don't think. He wanted to win for his own reasons (which are too spoilery for this thread), and has expressed regret that by not winning he inadvertently set in motion the chain of events that led to Robert's Rebellion and Rhaegar's death.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Speaking of which...where is Ned's head? Littlefinger gave it to Kat but she never made it back to Winterfell. Do we know what happened to it?


Probably at Riverrun. Catelyn made it back that far before heading off to her brother's wedding.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Question: Did Mellisandre actually...ahem...ride Gandry? IOW, did she take his virginity? I ask because I wonder if a virgin with a King's blood is worth more (she can do more with) than a non-virgin (who seem to be good for making Shadow babies). It also explains it when she asked Jon if he were a virgin.


I thought that she did.

Which begs a question, Mellisandre serves the Lord of Light and backs Stannis as King.
(And if you recognize Robert's reign as legitimate, Stannis is the true King by succession.)

The priestess Tyrion and Varys saw in Volantis (which I first heard as "Atlantis") seemed to serve the Lord of Light as well but was saying that Daenerys was the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.
(Which is true if you don't recognize Robert's reign as legitimate.)

Is there some intra-religious conflict brewing or does Mellisandre have her own agenda?

Interesting that Jaime wants to kill Tyrion because he killed Tywin.
I got the impression that Jaime didn't like Tywin much either and certainly he knows how badly Tywin treated Tyrion and/or suspects how completely he framed Tyrion.

Is it that Jaime found Tyrion's actions completely dishonorable?


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

JYoung said:


> Interesting that Jaime wants to kill Tyrion because he killed Tywin.
> I got the impression that Jaime didn't like Tywin much either and certainly he knows how badly Tywin treated Tyrion and/or suspects how completely he framed Tyrion.
> 
> Is it that Jaime found Tyrion's actions completely dishonorable?


Ah that was one of the more interesting parts of the episode for me. It will be interesting to see how it really plays out because Jaime has always loved and protected Tyrion.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

brianp6621 said:


> Ah that was one of the more interesting parts of the episode for me. It will be interesting to see how it really plays out because Jaime has always loved and protected Tyrion.


And helped him escape. He never thought Tyrion would kill Tywin so that had to come not only as a shock, but the realization that he enabled it to happen.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Interesting that Jaime wants to kill Tyrion because he killed Tywin. I got the impression that Jaime didn't like Tywin much either and certainly he knows how badly Tywin treated Tyrion and/or suspects how completely he framed Tyrion.
> 
> Is it that Jaime found Tyrion's actions completely dishonorable?


I don't think it has nearly as much to do with losing Tywin as it does with how his inadvertent participation in Tywin's murder has damaged his relationship with Cercei. The only reason he's currently risking his life in Dorne trying to rescue Myrcella is to try and get back in Cercei's good graces.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I was bothered by it too, but I don't think they had secure flanks - there were SOHs on both sides of the outnumbered group of Unsullied, because they ran into an ambush. So they couldn't do a proper Phalanx, where the shields are stacked on top of each other against a foe on one side of the line.
> 
> But still, with their spears and shields, they should have been able to form up into a circle - or more accurately, a two-sided wall - and make it very difficult for the SOH to get in close enough to use their short swords.


I was envisioning your "two sided wall", it looked like the corridor was enough that that two shield walls, facing in opposite directions, would have each stretched across the width of the corridor. 
In that formation their flanks are secured by the walls of the corridor.

It wouldn't be a proper phalanx, and they didn't have enough Unsullied to do that and have any additional rows, but it's a heck of a lot better than a random close range melee when your weapons are optimized for medium range formation fighting.

But trying a 2 sided wall in an open field, without the walls to keep people from coming at the flanks, leaves the narrow ends quite vulnerable. You'd have to attempt to pull off a square, and doing that with that few people and no 2nd line of spearmen, leaves the corners kind of exposed.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> I was envisioning your "two sided wall", it looked like the corridor was enough that that two shield walls, facing in opposite directions, would have each stretched across the width of the corridor.
> In that formation their flanks are secured by the walls of the corridor.
> 
> It wouldn't be a proper phalanx, and they didn't have enough Unsullied to do that and have any additional rows, but it's a heck of a lot better than a random close range melee when your weapons are optimized for medium range formation fighting.


Right. That's what I was envisioning as well because of the relatively confined space they were in. As you pointed out, that wouldn't work very well in a larger area, where you would have to retreat into a circle, which is not ideal. Having only shield and spear, they are not super well-equipped for close quarter combat.

One thing I hadn't really considered until I read this week's Ask The Maester column on Grantland is that there are probably a fair amount of unemployed pit fighters in the SOH ranks right now, which kinda/sorta explains their ability to successfully pull of the ambush. Pit fighters would have plenty of experience in close quarter formation-less melee fighting, and that, combined with the ambush and that the Unsullied were relatively ill-equipped for that type of combat, makes it slightly more plausible.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> One thing I hadn't really considered until I read this week's Ask The Maester column on Grantland is that there are probably a fair amount of unemployed pit fighters in the SOH ranks right now, which kinda/sorta explains their ability to successfully pull of the ambush. Pit fighters would have plenty of experience in close quarter formation-less melee fighting, and that, combined with the ambush and that the Unsullied were relatively ill-equipped for that type of combat, makes it slightly more plausible.


Yeah, that was my point earlier...


Rob Helmerichs said:


> Anubys said:
> 
> 
> > They are the former masters of Mereen who are rebelling against Dany because they want things back to the way they were.
> ...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> And helped him escape. He never thought Tyrion would kill Tywin so that had to come not only as a shock, but the realization that he enabled it to happen.





DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think it has nearly as much to do with losing Tywin as it does with how his inadvertent participation in Tywin's murder has damaged his relationship with Cercei. The only reason he's currently risking his life in Dorne trying to rescue Myrcella is to try and get back in Cercei's good graces.


Probably more the damage it caused his relationship with Cercei.
I don't think that Jaime was a huge fan of Tywin's and I suspect that part of the reason he joined the King's Guard was to flip Tywin the bird. (Or do they say "flip the dragon" in Westeros?)

Certainly Jaime loved Tyrion (but not like he loved his sister) and felt like he was caught between that and the hatred Tywin and Cercei felt for Tyrion's "role" in his mother's death.

Also, Jaime probably doesn't know about the Lannister gold mines drying up and how precarious things are for House Lannister.
Without Tywin to hold things together (as Baelish pointed out), it's up to Cercei to do it and I'm not sure she's up to it.

As it stands, she's likely to completely piss off House Tyrell if she isn't careful.

Ironically, Tyrion may be the only Lannister left who has the savvy to get House Lannister out of this mess.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think it has nearly as much to do with losing Tywin as it does with how his inadvertent participation in Tywin's murder has damaged his relationship with Cercei. The only reason he's currently risking his life in Dorne trying to rescue Myrcella is to try and get back in Cercei's good graces.


Also, while Jamie has no desire to rule, he realizes that his Dad was good at it and Cercei is not. The kingdom is crumbling around them and he's responsible.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that was my point earlier...


Yeah, but I have to agree with Ereth's good points with the way that whole fight was staged, the Unsullied should have whupped them.

I too, found it a tad distracting, story wise.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Yeah, but I have to agree with Ereth's good points with the way that whole fight was staged, the Unsullied should have whupped them.


Oh, absolutely...as I said earlier, Walking Dead syndrome. The fact that it was studly ex-slaves rather than fat old men shouldn't have made much difference against the Unsullied, at least as they'd been presented previously.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

brianp6621 said:


> Ah that was one of the more interesting parts of the episode for me. It will be interesting to see how it really plays out because Jaime has always loved and protected Tyrion.


All 3 children were desperate for their father's love and approval. They worshiped Tywin even if they hated him. I thought Jaime's reaction to Tyrion killing their father perfectly within character.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> ...Interesting that Jaime wants to kill Tyrion because he killed Tywin.
> I got the impression that Jaime didn't like Tywin much either and certainly he knows how badly Tywin treated Tyrion and/or suspects how completely he framed Tyrion.
> 
> Is it that Jaime found Tyrion's actions completely dishonorable?





pjenkins said:


> And helped him escape. He never thought Tyrion would kill Tywin so that had to come not only as a shock, but the realization that he enabled it to happen.





JYoung said:


> Probably more the damage it caused his relationship with Cercei.
> I don't think that Jaime was a huge fan of Tywin's and I suspect that part of the reason he joined the King's Guard was to flip Tywin the bird. (Or do they say "flip the dragon" in Westeros?)
> 
> Certainly Jaime loved Tyrion (but not like he loved his sister) and felt like he was caught between that and the hatred Tywin and Cercei felt for Tyrion's "role" in his mother's death.
> ...


The nerve of that Tyrion, killing the very father who was happily waiting for his unwanted son to be executed.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

This week's....
*
If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook  Season 5, Episode 4*

http://valarbloghulis.someecards.co...lace-entirely-on-facebook-season-5-episode-4/


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Did Jaime lie when he said it was Verys that let Tyrion escape? If so, did he not also lie when he said he would kill Tyrion for killing his father?


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Both Jaimie and Varys helped Tyrion. IMO, he is lying about killing Tyrion to protect himself.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

teknikel said:


> Did Jaime lie when he said it was Verys that let Tyrion escape? If so, did he not also lie when he said he would kill Tyrion for killing his father?


It's the concept of never admitting to a crime or divulging a secret. This is why he is going to save his niece. It doesn't Matter what people think they know, he will never openly admit to things with anyone. Not even Tyrion was trusted.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

astrohip said:


> This week's....
> *
> If Game of Thrones took place entirely on Facebook - Season 5, Episode 4*
> 
> http://valarbloghulis.someecards.co...lace-entirely-on-facebook-season-5-episode-4/


Crowdfund the Night's Watch on KnightStarter :up::up:

Love the internet baby memes "Lost Hand - Got out of grave duty"!


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

MikeAndrews said:


> The nerve of that Tyrion, killing the very father who was happily waiting for his unwanted son to be executed.


Maybe it was killing him while he was on the pot that Jaime found dishonorable.

I think that Jaime is mostly an honorable person. His one flaw is his _very_ unhealthy relationship with his sister.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Maybe it was killing him while he was on the pot that Jaime found dishonorable.


I've got to admit, that was a crappy way to go.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

allan said:


> I've got to admit, that was a crappy way to go.


Tywin said it stinks.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tyrion just wanted to ac-commode-ate his dad...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

To assist him with a crossbow movement.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Tyrion just wanted to ac-commode-ate his dad...





DUDE_NJX said:


> To assist him with a crossbow movement.


Ouch. 

Y'all are really reaching for them now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Y'all are really reaching for them now.


 I don't get it...


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