# TiVo at CES 2010



## Globular (Jun 9, 2004)

Just starting a thread to discuss TiVo's offerings (if any) at CES 2010. Please post any links to articles here.

So far I've found Dave Zatz's brief mention of TiVo at CES at http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-01/ces-2010-day-0-summary/

-Matt


----------



## Globular (Jun 9, 2004)

Dave also speculated earlier that we won't see much from TiVo at CES this year; http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-11/whats-next-for-tivo/


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Hoping to hear at least SOMETHING about the TiVo Premiere...


----------



## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Hoping for _something_ about Direct TV Tivo. Otherwise I might finally realize it ain't ever gonna happen...


----------



## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

I'm just hoping to hear *_anything*_ that has TiVo's name associated to it. I've checked periodically today at the CNET website with their frequent daily updates of what is going on at the CES 2010. So far, nadda...

http://ces.cnet.com/?tag=hdr


----------



## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

My understanding is that the show floor is still not open yet, so the news coming out today is from press releases/conferences. Tivo is listed in the exhibitor directory at the CES web site, so they will have something on the show floor. It remains to be seen if it is anything interesting. I really think they need to do something to show some innovation and generate interest.


----------



## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

I read the same thing, that the show floor really isn't open until tomorrow (I think)? I was being extra hopeful I suppose, trying to wish them into letting something be seen today! You're right, they definitely need to do something to get some good buzz going.


----------



## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

dig_duggler said:


> Hoping for _something_ about Direct TV Tivo. Otherwise I might finally realize it ain't ever gonna happen...


Pretty sure that they've already announced that there isn't going to be an announcement.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Many times, the hardware owner does the announcing. For example, the DirecTivo is technically a DTV product, so it may very well be up to DTV to announce, display, and demo the product, if they choose to, whenever they choose to. Ditto for the Best Buy box, etc. Tivo is a glorified OEM supplier in these cases.

I can't help but think the conveniently timed Premiere leak and the new wireless adapter patent will result in SOMETHING on the show floor, though.


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

They have to have something to show. Otherwise why spend the money to get a booth.

According to http://tivo.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=19 TiVo will have three speaking engagements tomorrow and one today.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

cowboydren said:


> Pretty sure that they've already announced that there isn't going to be an announcement.


So, they made an announcement?


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

lvthunder said:


> They have to have something to show. Otherwise why spend the money to get a booth.


That's not quite how it works for every exhibitor. They brief press and investors, talk to current and potential partners, etc. There's lots of companies that don't announce a specific product here. And their space isn't really a booth. It's more a meeting area with rooms for more meetings. My briefing will be held under a NDA, so I doubt we'll have any big box announcements this week. Which is OK, we don't want them lost in the noise.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

If TiVo has nothing to show I might as well make the move to a Moxi now. I've been holding off pending any announcements from TiVo but if they're not going to announce anything at CES of all places why wait any longer? It doesn't look like the TiVo Premier is going to bring much to the table. Of course that is speculation but without an official announcement speculation is all we have. Way to go TiVo.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Which is OK, we don't want them lost in the noise.


With the Moxi 3-tuner/streaming unit already on the market and other neat new devices popping up at CES, they might do that on their own without something significant to share.  Hope they show something useful.


----------



## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

lvthunder said:


> They have to have something to show. Otherwise why spend the money to get a booth.


If they weren't there, everyone would assume them left for dead.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

davezatz said:


> That's not quite how it works for every exhibitor. They brief press and investors, talk to current and potential partners, etc. There's lots of companies that don't announce a specific product here. And their space isn't really a booth. It's more a meeting area with rooms for more meetings. My briefing will be held under a NDA, so I doubt we'll have any big box announcements this week. Which is OK, we don't want them lost in the noise.


I'm not sure why you've concluded that. It may be true, but TiVo has an awful lot of box announcements to make this year. You've got the Best Buy box, the RCN box, the DirecTiVo box, the general Series 4 box, and the Comcast hardware box, all of which I would expect announcements for eventually this year. I can see them wanting a NDA to discuss some of them, but why does that preclude them announcing others at CES?


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> I can see them wanting a NDA to discuss some of them, but why does that preclude them announcing others at CES?


Dave has covered lots of CES shows and likely has a feel for any vendor intentions by now. Also if you do have something to say about new products the vendor would certainly want to schedule a time in advance and make sure as many folks as possible are in attendance, so Dave would have an invite to a public PR event if that was the case.

I am as mystified as the next person why TiVo is not talking publicly during the blitz of CES and all gadget eyes looking for news.


----------



## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

Behold! The name of TiVo has been mentioned at CES 2010! Here is a link to a news article I read a few minutes ago on MSNBC...

*TiVo Unveils First Annual "Battle of the Consumer Electronics Brands at CES" Scorecard *
Winning & Losing CE Brands Determined by Overall TV Ad Performance -- What Gets Avoided and What Gets Watched; Winning Brands Include Best Buy, LG, Verizon Wireless, Sony, Palm, Canon

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34746214

Apparently, this was the message that they were to deliver last night, as mentioned earlier by _lvthunder_. Granted, this isn't exactly the way most of us want to hear about anything TiVo-related to come out of CES 2010, but at least their name has now been invoked!  This may not interest many, but I thought I would share.


----------



## McCarron (Jun 6, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I can't help but think the conveniently timed Premiere leak and the new wireless adapter patent will result in SOMETHING on the show floor, though.


That's what I'm assuming too, surprised to not see something official yet but appears they have a few talks today.

I think the timing was probably inconvenient to them, and probably undid some marketing push they were going to do. I can say TiVo didn't have me leak the info, trust me on that. Did they mean to toss the wrong CableCard instructions into the boxes? Probably not, I bet hundreds of those went out before someone noticed. Surprised no one else said they got one also though.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

That will get TiVo more subscribers! There's nothing the average consumer wants more than to have their every move monitored and recorded for sales purposes. That's way better than announcing better performing hardware, triple tuners, etc. Good grief. What a wasted opportunity. In the meantime you have all these other companies announcing competitive products at CES. Apple may be able to get away with holding their own press events but not TiVo. TiVo does not have that kind of draw. That "Battle of the Consumer Electronics Bands" looks like an advertisement for Best Buy who TiVo recently started a partnership with.


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

That talk yesterday was given by Tara Maitra, VP, GM, Content Services and Advertising Sales. So what do you expect from a Content Services and Advertising Sales person. The VP of product marketing is up today.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

My best guess is that consumers who are looking to CES to announce the next product they would want to buy are essentially setting themselves up for disappointment, and perhaps even engaging in a bit of mental masturbation. It is an industry trade show, not a shopping mall. The audience aren't consumers, but rather the folks who influence what consumers will buy: principally the media, and buyers for retailers. Consumers do tend to think that it is always "all about them" but the reality is quite a bit different.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Rogers was just on CNBC. Mentioned partnerships like those with Best Buy in passing, but primary message was about the advertising data.


----------



## flaminiom (Dec 27, 2008)

bicker said:


> My best guess is that consumers who are looking to CES to announce the next product they would want to buy are essentially setting themselves up for disappointment, and perhaps even engaging in a bit of mental masturbation. It is an industry trade show, not a shopping mall. The audience aren't consumers, but rather the folks who influence what consumers will buy: principally the media, and buyers for retailers. Consumers do tend to think that it is always "all about them" but the reality is quite a bit different.


Well, it's the Consumer Electronics Show, so it obviously has interest for consumers. It's the biggest exposition of consumer gear of the year.

You may or may not go shopping at a trade show, but CES is definitely for showing off your latest/greatest wares to the world. If Tivo doesn't announce something it's not because it's the wrong venue.


----------



## paulnelson20 (Oct 18, 2007)

Unless TiVo pulls the trigger on something big before March 31st, (ie: HD interface, more than two tuners) I'll be canning them and going with Ceton's new PC card. http://www.cetoncorp.com/buy.php $399 upfront w/no monthly fees other than a cablecard(which I'm already paying for anyways) It'll pay for itself in no time.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> My best guess is that consumers who are looking to CES to announce the next product they would want to buy are essentially setting themselves up for disappointment,


actually it lets me have some visibility, as a consumer, into what the coming trends are and whether there are possible features I might find value in waiting for versus purchasing what is in the retail store right now. Wireless charging and WiFi picture frames are 2 items I looked for specific info on so I can see where current products are versus what they will evolve to in the next 12 months.

Also pricing trends can be derived from this - with new products in a line announced at CES I can expect a downward trend in pricing on current models. So savvy consumers can benefit from the info from the show just as much as wholesale buyers and industry players.

Now as far as TiVo it self goes, they may well have good reasons to keep quiet during CES that have nothing to do with lack of product or fear of being drowned out. It could be as simple as the current stock levels of TiVo DVRs at Best Buys.


----------



## dave13077 (Jan 11, 2009)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Rogers was just on CNBC. Mentioned partnerships like those with Best Buy in passing, but primary message was about the advertising data.


I saw the interview also. You are correct all he wanted to talk about was the ad data. One person tried to get him to talk a little about the hardware partnership with Best Buy and he said something to the effect of "I want to talk about ad data and you are trying to get me to talk about hardware" and went right back to talking about "pimping" out our viewing habits.......Great, they should be paying me.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Not trying to hijack the thread in anyway, but there is a Vokcano by Monsoon (see link http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/arti...o_slingbox_roku_remote_control_functionality/ and below)

How different or comparable do you think this will really be to TiVo, present and future?

""Volcano Combines TiVo, Slingbox, Roku, Remote Control Functionality

January 7th, 2010 at 11:39 AM - News by Brad Cook

LAS VEGAS  Monsoon Multimedia has introduced at this weeks Consumer Electronics Show (CES) Volcano, a device that combines the DVR capabilities of TiVo, the streaming abilities of Slingbox (and Monsoons comparable device, HAVA), the Internet video serving of Roku, and various remote control functionality. Volcano works with Mac, PC, and several smartphones, including iPhone, Android, BlackBerry, Symbian, and Windows Mobile.

Available in regular or Pro versions with 4GB of flash memory or a 250GB hard drive, respectively, Volcano lets users schedule TV recordings remotely and transfer content to their smartphones, either via a 3G cellular network or an 802.11n Wi-Fi connection. Live programming can also be viewed remotely.

Volcano connects to the analog output of a set-top box and uses a 150kbps uplink speed, as well as H.264 video compression technology developed by Monsoon. Volcano also allows users to surf the web and watch YouTube videos or other online content on their TVs.

Monsoon said that Volcano will be available in March for US$199 for the regular version and $299 for the Pro edition. A lifetime or term-based subscription will also be needed; details were not provided. Monsoon does not have a Volcano page on its web site yet.


----------



## David Ortiz (Jul 8, 2002)

davezatz said:


> That's not quite how it works for every exhibitor. They brief press and investors, talk to current and potential partners, etc. There's lots of companies that don't announce a specific product here. And their space isn't really a booth. It's more a meeting area with rooms for more meetings. My briefing will be held under a NDA, so I doubt we'll have any big box announcements this week. Which is OK, we don't want them lost in the noise.


It is just a meeting area. There was nothing on display, but I did get one of those cool plush TiVo dolls.


----------



## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Still no hardware news from Tivo, so I'm not expecting any.

On the bright side, if Tivo is meeting with press people like davezatz under NDA, then that basically confirms that Tivo does have something new coming but they just don't want to make it public yet. We just have to be patient a bit longer.

(Dave, I think you're lucky that Tivo is still willing to share sensitive info with you after the "unhurried pace" incident.)


----------



## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

David Ortiz said:


> ... but I did get one of those cool plush TiVo dolls.


Is he still 4:3 with a CRT bump on the back, or have they made him into a wide screen? A new version of the Tivo doll would be news-worthy.


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is my take on Tivo's 2010 offering.

We spy on the people that own our hardware so we can use it to our benefit.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

A company in business to make money? Who'da thunkit?


----------



## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

This is crazy. I can understand TiVo not wanting to "show their hand" to the competition. I can also understand not wanting to get lost in the shuffle of the CES, and worry about something else cool or some other company stealing their thunder. If they want to hold out as long as is humanly possible to announce something, that is their right to do so. Perhaps like was mentioned in another post, they are waiting for their partners (Best Buy, DirecTV, Comcast, etc) to make some kind of announcement. I really don't even expect some grand showcase like those that some of the bigger companies are doing.

What I don't understand is why TiVo hasn't (at least, not yet) done something to at least get people talking about them. I mean, something other than telling the world they used their data to determine that TiVo users think Best Buy, Verizon, etc. have the best advertisements.  One of the little plush doll giveaways is all fine and good, but if they want to get people excited and talking about TiVo again, they need to do something that makes a little more of a mark, in my opinion. Unless, they aren't as worried about such things as most of us here want them to be. They could even keep it super small and simple, something like having the CES folks turn out the lights in part of the show area for like 10 seconds, and show the TiVo Guy on the wall a-la the Bat Signal, while playing the little "blpp-blpp" sound in the background. They wouldn't have to say a word or show a thing beyond that, and I would be satisfied, because at least at that point, they would have made their prescence known.

I'm certainly starting to lose faith in them. I didn't even get my little TiVo Guy Christmas ornament on the tree this year for that very reason.  The CES isn't over yet of course, but I am getting less and less optimistic of hearing something from them.


----------



## theoryzero (Jan 7, 2010)

I put up an OTA antenna last week. I am looking for an easy to use DVR solution for my wife (and from what I've experienced with HTPC, that isn't it). She's stubborn on learning new tech and TiVo seems like the safest bet since she can for the most part use our current cable box/DVR.

Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.

I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

TiVo has only a press room again, in N202,


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

theoryzero said:


> I put up an OTA antenna last week. I am looking for an easy to use DVR solution for my wife (and from what I've experienced with HTPC, that isn't it). She's stubborn on learning new tech and TiVo seems like the safest bet since she can for the most part use our current cable box/DVR.
> 
> Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.
> 
> I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


If you ask me for OTA only TiVo is the only way to go. Just because they didn't announce any new hardware at CES doesn't mean much. They have already made announcements that they are making boxes for Directv and Best Buy. They are just probably a little further away then we would like. What you don't hear around here is how many people are using TiVo and are perfectly happy about it. Does it really matter that a menu isn't in HD as long as you can read it? As for sluggish operation I don't find it nearly as sluggish as my Directv box.

As for the lifetime subscription I would get one. But I'm the kind of person that doesn't like monthly fees. One shot and done is what I like. You also have to think about how long you are going to keep the box. I enjoyed my Series 1 box for years after the Series 2 box came out.


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

donnoh said:


> Here is my take on Tivo's 2010 offering.
> 
> We spy on the people that own our hardware so we can use it to our benefit.


Is it really spying when they tell you what they are doing? Plus they give you a chance to opt-out.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think they learned their lesson from the S3. They showed it off at CES in January and then, do to unforeseen circumstances, weren't able to actually release it until September. It probably hurt their sales during the waiting period.

With the TiVoHD they did it Apple style... They announced it when it was actually ready to be sold. I'm guessing that any new hardware they're working on will be released in the same fashion.

Dan


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

There was also that S2 OTA only HD Tivo they showed for a couple years and never released.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I think they learned their lesson from the S3. They showed it off at CES in January and then, do to unforeseen circumstances, weren't able to actually release it until September. It probably hurt their sales during the waiting period.
> 
> With the TiVoHD they did it Apple style... They announced it when it was actually ready to be sold. I'm guessing that any new hardware they're working on will be released in the same fashion.
> 
> Dan


I concur. Why rush to announce a product that (maybe) isn't ready yet?


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The Premiere must be awfully close to being ready, though, if the CableCard instruction sheets for it are not only printed, but lying around in piles next to the TiVo HD's.

But clearly, Rogers thinks of advertisers as his customers, and thinks of customers as his product. :down::down::down:


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> The Premiere must be awfully close to being ready, though, if the CableCard instruction sheets for it are not only printed, but lying around in piles next to the TiVo HD's.
> 
> But clearly, Rogers thinks of advertisers as his customers, and thinks of customers as his product. :down::down::down:


I agree the Premeire must be pretty close.

As for Rogers he has three sets of clients because he sells three different products. First is the stand alone TiVo box and service. His customers there are us. He also has software for sale. His clients there is Comcast and Directv. His third product is this add data. His client there is all the content providers and advertisers. So he is talking publicly about the third one today.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

flaminiom said:


> Well, it's the Consumer Electronics Show


Yes, it is the Consumer-Electronics Show, not the Consumer Electronics-Show.

It's a show _about_ consumer electronics, *not *a show _for _consumers about electronics.



flaminiom said:


> so it obviously has interest for consumers.


No, you've got it backwards: Consumers have interest for it.



flaminiom said:


> It's the biggest exposition of consumer gear of the year.


And I'm sure that some consumers *want *it to be structured around their personal desires for information and insights.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> actually it lets me have some visibility, as a consumer, into what the coming trends are and whether there are possible features I might find value in waiting for versus purchasing what is in the retail store right now.


But your attitude is completely different. You don't place categorical expectations on suppliers (like some other folks would). Rather you look at the show from the standpoint of what neat info might you be able to glean. You look at the show a Zero-plus, where other folks are going into it expecting specific suppliers to provide specific info.


----------



## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Tivo's CES announcement of better user tracking sounds 'bout right to me, I had that or new interactive ads during pause, etc..

Wish it had been new hardware, HD menus, or something nice, but it never is. Oh well... I guess next year, unless next year they announce live ad embedding into recorded tv shows or something great like that.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> A company in business to make money? Who'da thunkit?


:up:


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lvthunder said:


> If you ask me for OTA only TiVo is the only way to go. Just because they didn't announce any new hardware at CES doesn't mean much. They have already made announcements that they are making boxes for Directv and Best Buy. They are just probably a little further away then we would like. What you don't hear around here is how many people are using TiVo and are perfectly happy about it. Does it really matter that a menu isn't in HD as long as you can read it? As for sluggish operation I don't find it nearly as sluggish as my Directv box.


On the other hand I would say look at Windows 7 options if you have a Windows 7 PC or are looking to upgrade soon. With the various OTA tuners you can have up to 4 tuners, there are no recurring fees, and with a 360 you can add MRV functionality without waiting for transfers.

I don't think personally I could justify the cost of a lifetime Tivo HD for only OTA.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

The CES show isn't over yet.  And do not make such a big deal about whether or not TiVo makes an announcement - There are larger companies (ahem... Apple...) who do not even bother using it as a platform and who do a rather good job of getting the message (And then product) out. It is coming, soon enough.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> I concur. Why rush to announce a product that (maybe) isn't ready yet?


To keep people waiting for their own product instead of pushing them over to their competitors?


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Kablemodem said:


> A company in business to make money? Who'da thunkit?


They won't be making much money without something to bring in new customers!


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

They still have the TiVo HD and TiVo HD XL to bring in new customers.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

theoryzero said:


> Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.
> 
> I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


I've got two Series 3 with lifetime on them. There used to be a time I would recommend TiVo. No longer. The interface is sluggish and buggy. It's SD resolution stretched to fit an HD screen. Features that people tout as the core of the TiVo experience don't even work correctly. I have found that it often records repeats (clearly marked as such) even though you specifically tell it not to.

There are alternatives out there with many more being announced this week at CES.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

theoryzero said:


> Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.
> 
> I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


The HD is buggy and in some markets it's appallingly bad if you have older units in service alongside the newer ones. If you aren't going to do loads of research about how TiVo operates in your area I'd say don't get one. If you will be relying on Cable Card, don't get one. If you need only one or only use OTA, you'll be happy with it.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

spocko said:


> Is he still 4:3 with a CRT bump on the back, or have they made him into a wide screen? A new version of the Tivo doll would be news-worthy.


The ones from the TiVo store are. The resident teen TiVo fan got the 19" for Christmas.

TiVo guy is gonna look funny in 16:9...and he'd have to make the ears digital.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> I've got two Series 3 with lifetime on them. There used to be a time I would recommend TiVo. No longer. The interface is sluggish and buggy. It's SD resolution stretched to fit an HD screen. Features that people tout as the core of the TiVo experience don't even work correctly. I have found that it often records repeats (clearly marked as such) even though you specifically tell it not to.
> 
> There are alternatives out there with many more being announced this week at CES.





Stormspace said:


> The HD is buggy and in some markets it's appallingly bad if you have older units in service alongside the newer ones. If you aren't going to do loads of research about how TiVo operates in your area I'd say don't get one. If you will be relying on Cable Card, don't get one. If you need only one or only use OTA, you'll be happy with it.


I would have to say that TiVo is not for you then. You should get rid of your units (they still have value on eBay), and purchase or lease the alternative.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

daveak said:


> The CES show isn't over yet.  And do not make such a big deal about whether or not TiVo makes an announcement - There are larger companies (ahem... Apple...) who do not even bother using it as a platform and who do a rather good job of getting the message (And then product) out. It is coming, soon enough.


If TiVo was large enough that they had their very own expo, then I would agree that CES wouldn't be that big a deal, but since there isn't a TiVoCon, CES is probably the best place for hardware announcements.

Most of the products announced at CES (such as 3D TVs) aren't coming out until much later in 2010.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> I would have to say that TiVo is not for you then. You should get rid of your units (they still have value on eBay), and purchase or lease the alternative.


I'm stuck until the contract runs out, but I'm looking.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm going to be free to wonder around the floor on Friday afternoon and most of Saturday

I didn't see Tivo at Digital Experience or ShowStoppers but I did see Slacker at ShowStoppers tonight so that was cool 

Anyone know who from TiVo is at the booth? 
I got a few pics of TWO huge inflatable tivo things outside!!! I'll upload them when I get home, forgot my camera cord


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

According to people over at DBStalk, Tivo is only open to those with appointments. They didn't say who was there though. They will supposedly give you a plush doll if you ask though.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> According to people over at DBStalk, Tivo is only open to those with appointments. They didn't say who was there though. They will supposedly give you a plush doll if you ask though.


ehh I'll swing by if I'm near then, but I won't go out of my way. I do have a press/analyst badge, so I go to more places and such, but if it's just apoint. then no worries.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

theoryzero said:


> I put up an OTA antenna last week. I am looking for an easy to use DVR solution for my wife (and from what I've experienced with HTPC, that isn't it). She's stubborn on learning new tech and TiVo seems like the safest bet since she can for the most part use our current cable box/DVR.
> 
> Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.
> 
> I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


Get a TiVo. You'll be happy you did. People have questioned the value of LT for a decade now. I'm on my eight year with my Series 2, let's just say it's been worth it.  Even if TiVo goes under as a company, I'm pretty sure that guide data will continue.

I've been very happy with my Series 3. Sure, menus should be in HD and it's weird and embarrassing that they're not, really... but in the grand scheme of things, big whoop.

I agree about the uncertainty about upcoming models. Would be nice to know if something new is coming out.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

MickeS said:


> I've been very happy with my Series 3. Sure, menus should be in HD and it's weird and embarrassing that they're not, really... but in the grand scheme of things, big whoop.


Precisely. I haven't noticed the SD interface preventing me from doing anything I want to, and I really didn't buy TiVos so I could sit there and stare at the menus. And apart from having to scroll more often in the "Now Playing" list (or "To Do" list, or ...) it's really not that big an issue.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> According to people over at DBStalk, Tivo is only open to those with appointments. They didn't say who was there though. They will supposedly give you a plush doll if you ask though.


ahhh just pulled up my maps I got today there and found Tivo, they are ONLY listed in the meeting rooms, so yeah no real booth for show.

But weird there are two HUGE inflatable Tivo things outside the buildings then


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> ... but in the grand scheme of things, big whoop.


This is a really critical point. Way too often, especially online, what you see regarding a product or service is over-the-top ridiculous in terms of placing way too much significance on relatively insignificant concerns, and a lot of folks often look at the world from the standpoint of all the negative things that they can detect (or fabricate), instead of looking at the world as a blank slate onto which you add the positive things that are there to be enjoyed. 



MickeS said:


> I agree about the uncertainty about upcoming models. *Would be nice *to know if something new is coming out.


Yes, definitely, and exactly so: It "would be nice" -- it would be yet-another positive thing. Instead, though, some folks choose to look at the lack of information as something negative instead of just neutral, which is what it really is.


----------



## Hcour (Dec 24, 2007)

theoryzero said:


> I put up an OTA antenna last week. I am looking for an easy to use DVR solution for my wife (and from what I've experienced with HTPC, that isn't it). She's stubborn on learning new tech and TiVo seems like the safest bet since she can for the most part use our current cable box/DVR.
> 
> Then I come to these forums and read about how the current HD model is such a dinosaur with no HD menus and sluggish operation, they are losing subscribers left and right, and no new tech announced in a long long time.
> 
> I was hoping for some information on a new box after reading about the TiVo Premiere manual leak, but disappointed to not hear anything from this company this week besides making money from patent infringement lawsuits and how they analyze their customers viewing habits of commercials. It makes me wonder if I decide to get the HD unit, is it smart to pay for a lifetime subscription? What happens if the company no longer exists in two years? Just a few thoughts from a prospective customer who knew nothing about TiVo until a week ago.


Well, I'm no Tivo expert, but I dropped TWC a few months ago, went OTA and bought my first TivoHD and I think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread (besides my Popcorn Hour, that is). With a 1TB hd I installed using easy-as-pie instructions from this board and connected to my computer where I can transfer even more content to my new 1.5TB hd, I've got all the storage space I'll ever need. I couldn't care less about an HD interface and the current one doesn't seem sluggish to me, at least not the NPL, which is what I use mostly. Streaming Netflix on my big screen is the cat's pajamas, basically free for me since I had an account already. I'm saving a chunk of change going OTA and Tivo and I'm very pleased with it. It's about a 100 times more reliable than my TWC SA DVR.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> According to people over at DBStalk, Tivo is only open to those with appointments. They didn't say who was there though. They will supposedly give you a plush doll if you ask though.


It's been that way for years.

But every time I've stopped by they've let you come in a say hi...


----------



## theoryzero (Jan 7, 2010)

Hcour said:


> Well, I'm no Tivo expert, but I dropped TWC a few months ago, went OTA and bought my first TivoHD and I think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread (besides my Popcorn Hour, that is). With a 1TB hd I installed using easy-as-pie instructions from this board and connected to my computer where I can transfer even more content to my new 1.5TB hd, I've got all the storage space I'll ever need. I couldn't care less about an HD interface and the current one doesn't seem sluggish to me, at least not the NPL, which is what I use mostly. Streaming Netflix on my big screen is the cat's pajamas, basically free for me since I had an account already. I'm saving a chunk of change going OTA and Tivo and I'm very pleased with it. It's about a 100 times more reliable than my TWC SA DVR.


Well your experience seems the same as what I am looking forward to. We still have the cable hooked up because we are using the DVR from Mediacom. As soon as I get a DVR solution that can stream Netflix we'll be cancelling.

Maybe I should get it over with and just order the Tivo HD so that they can announce the Tivo Premier in a little over 30 days after it's arrival (that's my usual luck!).


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> The HD is buggy and in some markets it's appallingly bad if you have older units in service alongside the newer ones.


The HD is not buggy, period. Yes, it has a couple of outstanding issues for a small minority, but it's been a rock-solid box for me and for many others here. You should try the Comcast DVR - that is the definition of 'buggy'.

Nor do I find the interface 'sluggish', as some have averred. But I don't run 200 season passes on mine, nor do I bother with most of the slow HME apps like Tivo Search. I just use it to record and watch TV, and it performs admirably at that task.


----------



## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

lvthunder said:


> There was also that S2 OTA only HD Tivo they showed for a couple years and never released.


IIRC, that was a feeler demo/proof of concept for manufacturers (which said no.) TiVo had no intent to manufacture that unit themselves.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> The HD is not buggy, period. Yes, it has a couple of outstanding issues for a small minority, but it's been a rock-solid box for me and for many others here. You should try the Comcast DVR - that is the definition of 'buggy'.


The three issues most widely reported...


Basic cable customers without a CableCard periodically lose their analog channels with a gray screen.

This issue is specific to analog channels. On the vast majority of systems, all analog channels are replaced with digital counterparts after installing a CableCard (and/or SDV adapter), thereby eliminating this issue.

 *Cisco* SDV tuning adapters periodically reset in some areas, causing the loss of all channels until the user restarts the TA and/or TiVo.

 MRV does not work with cable providers that set the "copy one generation" flag on all digital channels (many Brighthouse, Cox, and TWC systems).

The second issue is a serious problem for many Brighthouse, Cox, and TWC customers, but it isn't TiVo specific and affects Moxi and Windows7 CableCard setups in the same way. A head-end configuration issue causes the tuning adapter resets regardless of the connected hardware.

The third issue is a concern, but there's not much TiVo can do with the current hardware if it lacks the performance needed for reliable HD streaming. That said, no cable company DVRs (excluding U-Verse, FiOS) offer any sort of multi-room capability AFAIK.


----------



## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

theoryzero said:


> Well your experience seems the same as what I am looking forward to. We still have the cable hooked up because we are using the DVR from Mediacom. As soon as I get a DVR solution that can stream Netflix we'll be cancelling.
> 
> Maybe I should get it over with and just order the Tivo HD so that they can announce the Tivo Premier in a little over 30 days after it's arrival (that's my usual luck!).


Good idea, some will be very pleased if your order causes the release of the premiere product... 

I am OTA and stream Netflix on an original (refurbished) Series 3. There are a couple moments a year when I miss ESPN, but I save quite a bit of money doing it this way. And the money you save can be banked to improve you home theater experience! So in a way, maybe I am not saving that much money...

And for cable shows... if you can wait just a little, there are so many ways to get the show you want. Even paying for a show or movie through Amazon a few times a month is cheaper than paying for cable and sat.


----------



## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm with daveak on this one. I just went OTA a week ago (I first went from digital to basic cable and experienced the audio dropouts and gray screens as well) and am saving $80 a month. I'm getting all the network channels OTA except ABC (which is way out of range since I'm too far north of Denver, apparently) but the couple shows I watched on there are on ABC's website. Streaming Netflix is the coolest thing ever and I have more TV now than I can ever watch. 

Seriously, get one!


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> The three issues most widely reported...
> 
> 
> Basic cable customers without a CableCard periodically lose their analog channels with a gray screen.
> ...


A 4th issue also regularly reported is a highly-intermittent 100% system lockup during, or shortly after, Netflix playback. This requires a power-cycle to get the TiVo usable again. I'm in the group of people who experience this. Thankfully I am not in the group that could be impacted by issues 1-3 (I'm Comcast Basic with no analog and no SDV).


----------



## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

If the new Directivo HD was coming out in the next 6 months they would have said something at the CES. Especially to slow down the steady loss of DirecTivo customers. I've been checking here daily for the past year. Guess I'll check back in a few months.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> The three issues most widely reported...
> 
> 
> Basic cable customers without a CableCard periodically lose their analog channels with a gray screen.
> ...


Your small print notwithstanding the gray screen IS an issue with cable cards on MANY cable systems. I realize you probably tire of me complaining but I don't really care. Having such a show-stopping (literally) bug without fixing it for more than a year is a disgrace.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Cudahy said:


> If the new Directivo HD was coming out in the next 6 months they would have said something at the CES. Especially to slow down the steady loss of DirecTivo customers. I've been checking here daily for the past year. Guess I'll check back in a few months.


I don't agree.

Contractual agreements likely prevent TiVo from disclosing anything before DirecTV is ready. It is not in DirecTV's interest for customers to "hold out" for the TiVo software.

Remember the new DirecTiVo software runs on upcoming DirecTV hardware, not TiVo hardware. I don't think you're going to see or hear anything specific about the DirecTiVo software until the DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware actually ships.


----------



## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> Contractual agreements likely prevent TiVo from disclosing anything before DirecTV is ready. It is not in DirecTV's interest for customers to "hold out" for the TiVo software.
> Remember the new DirecTiVo software runs on upcoming DirecTV hardware, not TiVo hardware. I don't think you're going to see or hear anything specific about the DirecTiVo software until the DirecTV's next-generation DVR hardware actually ships.


Whatever. If there are any more drops in HD programming for the DirecTivo before the new one is out, I will cut my subscription to the minimum and record OTA material. Waited long enough.


----------



## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

What's the deal? The equipment TiVo has out handles 90% of what a DVR customer wants to do: record a scheduled event, via: manually, reoccurring, or as a suggested viewing recording. It does so in HD (if the program is in HD, if it is a tuned HD channel, if it is via cable or OTA with a suitable antenna, and if the unit is an HD capable unit/series 3 type). It can possibly record two programs simultaneously. What it doesn't do is work with satelite service. People who've shelled out for their equipment and paid for a lifetime plan want to recoup their investment before looking for the next generation of technology. People are so quick to want to abandon TiVo in favor of pie in the sky promises from firms that aren't well established. I say stick to what you know, like, and trust. Give TiVo a chance to bring out what it wants when it wants to. There can't be a new machine annually. This is not a car business. Let's not bury the firm because it won't live up to our anticipations or expectations. Let's give it the support and recommendations to others it deserves. Yes, I'm sticking with TiVo. I won't change to anything else unless TiVo goes out of business (hopefully not), or, unless it no longer works as intended. There will likely always be some new fangled technology around the corner. If it is not a fad and becomes the new mainstay, then TiVo may very well be in the position to incorporate it in a future model, even if having to pay royalties to whoever owns the patent on it.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

fasTLane said:


> Whatever. If there are any more drops in HD programming for the DirecTivo before the new one is out, I will cut my subscription to the minimum and record OTA material. Waited long enough.


Keep punishing yourself. Go down to network trash only while millions of HR2X users are enjoying 100+ HD channels (soon to be 200+ with DirecTV12 satellite already on orbit and being tested)


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

SpiritualPoet said:


> What's the deal? The equipment TiVo has out handles 90% of what a DVR customer wants to do: record a scheduled event, via: manually, reoccurring, or as a suggested viewing recording. It does so in HD (if the program is in HD, if it is a tuned HD channel, if it is via cable or OTA with a suitable antenna, and if the unit is an HD capable unit/series 3 type). It can possibly record two programs simultaneously. What it doesn't do is work with satelite service. People who've shelled out for their equipment and paid for a lifetime plan want to recoup their investment before looking for the next generation of technology. People are so quick to want to abandon TiVo in favor of pie in the sky promises from firms that aren't well established. I say stick to what you know, like, and trust. Give TiVo a chance to bring out what it wants when it wants to. There can't be a new machine annually. This is not a car business. Let's not bury the firm because it won't live up to our anticipations or expectations. Let's give it the support and recommendations to others it deserves. Yes, I'm sticking with TiVo. I won't change to anything else unless TiVo goes out of business (hopefully not), or, unless it no longer works as intended. There will likely always be some new fangled technology around the corner. If it is not a fad and becomes the new mainstay, then TiVo may very well be in the position to incorporate it in a future model, even if having to pay royalties to whoever owns the patent on it.


This kind of talk does not belong on the internet. Take it someplace else, buddy.


----------



## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

samo said:


> Keep punishing yourself. Go down to network trash only while millions of HR2X users are enjoying 100+ HD channels (soon to be 200+ with DirecTV12 satellite already on orbit and being tested)


Don't make me laugh.


----------



## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

Personally, I'm waiting for the next generation. I've learned by owning a 3-tuner box (Dish 722) that in order to be happy with something else, I need four tuners just for recording OTA events. Yes, I actually missed out on recording some shows that I wanted to watch this year because I didn't have enough tuners for local TV. I'm also unwilling to deal with two boxes, two timer lists, and two Now Playing lists, which means that TiVo doesn't have anything for me...yet.

As it stands, the TiVo HD is a four-year-old platform, and it's going to take a major refresh on all fronts (Hardware, Software, and User Interface) for me to spend $750 over the course of the next four years to be worth it. I'm NOT saying it can't happen, I actually believe it WILL happen. Broadcom's 4-tuner+MOCA System-on-chip is perfect for a proper Series-4 TiVo that does everything I want it to do. But will it happen before I spend that same money on a WMC/U-Verse solution? CES2010 has not been promising for TiVo.


----------



## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

Kablemodem said:


> This kind of talk does not belong on the internet. Take it someplace else, buddy.


Sorry, I missed your sarcasm the first time I read the post...



samo said:


> Keep punishing yourself. Go down to network trash only while millions of HR2X users are enjoying 100+ HD channels (soon to be 200+ with DirecTV12 satellite already on orbit and being tested)


Network trash? I think you mean broadcast network trash. If I got your drift right, go back and look at the Emmy's for the last few years. Against over 300 cable networks, the "trash" to which you refer took over a third of the awards. In the other two-thirds, almost all of that is available on DVD, even unscripted shows like those from Discovery networks. OTA+Netflix makes a lot of sense to a lot of people right now, and TiVo is making that happen pretty nicely. Why should I continue to pay $60-90 per month for a dish or a wire, when well over half of my prime-time entertainment comes down my antenna feed?

Once somebody finally gets the hardware and the software and the UI right, Dish is getting my boot, for sure.


----------



## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> What's the deal? The equipment TiVo has out handles 90% of what a DVR customer wants to do: record a scheduled event, via: manually, reoccurring, or as a suggested viewing recording. It does so in HD (if the program is in HD, if it is a tuned HD channel, if it is via cable or OTA with a suitable antenna, and if the unit is an HD capable unit/series 3 type). It can possibly record two programs simultaneously. What it doesn't do is work with satelite service. People who've shelled out for their equipment and paid for a lifetime plan want to recoup their investment before looking for the next generation of technology. People are so quick to want to abandon TiVo in favor of pie in the sky promises from firms that aren't well established. I say stick to what you know, like, and trust. Give TiVo a chance to bring out what it wants when it wants to. There can't be a new machine annually. This is not a car business. Let's not bury the firm because it won't live up to our anticipations or expectations. Let's give it the support and recommendations to others it deserves. Yes, I'm sticking with TiVo. I won't change to anything else unless TiVo goes out of business (hopefully not), or, unless it no longer works as intended. There will likely always be some new fangled technology around the corner. If it is not a fad and becomes the new mainstay, then TiVo may very well be in the position to incorporate it in a future model, even if having to pay royalties to whoever owns the patent on it.


There can't be a new machine annually? I bought both of my S3's on September 12th, 2006 (Launch day), provided they would announce something at this year's CES for release in Fall of this year, that would bring the Series 3's lifespan to 4 years (2006 - 2010), matching the lifespans of the Series 2 (2002 - 2006) and surpassing the lifespan of the Series 1 (1999 - 2002).

We're not asking for much, when your flagship device requires the use of dongles to maintain it's fully intended functionality, and cable companies have you beat hands down in functionality, you have an issue.

Series 4 should include a minimum of 4 QAM tuners, support MoCA, SDV and/or Tru2Way out of the box. Extra points if they include 4 OTA tuners. To keep costs down they should probably create three models, one with only OTA tuners, one with only QAM, ($300 max each), or a super unit for $500 that has them both. All models should be able to record 4 programs simultaneously.

TiVo used to be on the forefront of innovation, the current state of us BEGGING them to let us spend our money on them is disappointing to say the least. They can make all the video deals they want, but the hardware HAS to be refreshed in order to support those services well and to increase the possibility of new contracts (Hulu, Vevo, IPTV)


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Philmatic said:


> Series 4 should include a minimum of 4 QAM tuners, support MoCA, SDV and/or Tru2Way out of the box. Extra points if they include 4 OTA tuners.


 tru2way is the only means to provide SDV support without the tuning adapter, and some providers with SDV still don't have tru2way software available. The ability to run tru2way software doesn't do any good unless the cable company offers it.



Philmatic said:


> To keep costs down they should probably create three models, one with only OTA tuners, one with only QAM, ($300 max each), or a super unit for $500 that has them both. All models should be able to record 4 programs simultaneously.


To keep costs down, TiVo needs to concentrate on a single design, not multiple designs.



Philmatic said:


> TiVo used to be on the forefront of innovation, the current state of us BEGGING them to let us spend our money on them is disappointing to say the least. They can make all the video deals they want, but the hardware HAS to be refreshed in order to support those services well and to increase the possibility of new contracts (Hulu, Vevo, IPTV)


 The SoCs with the performance necessary to handle the TiVo software, tru2way software, and Internet services, all at the same time, and in a responsive fashion, are very new.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

daveak said:


> ""Volcano Combines TiVo, Slingbox, Roku, Remote Control Functionality
> ....
> Volcano connects to the analog output of a set-top box and uses a 150kbps uplink speed, as


Uhh, that would have been interesting, like 10 years ago. Not even a tuner internally for analog channels, or more realistically, handling CableCards? That's ridiculous.


----------



## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Kablemodem said:


> This kind of talk does not belong on the internet. Take it someplace else, buddy.


LOL! Very funny. 

But I agree with the referenced post by SpiritualPoet. I think some people here need to lighten up a bit. Sure we'd all like to see Tivo introduce something newer and better, and I can understand disappointment about the lack of any new product info, but let's keep things in perspective. The Tivo S3/HD still do the job they were designed and advertised to do, and except for the few known issues already noted in this thread, they do that job very well. No other DVR solution on the market offers all the same capabilities, and each of the alternatives has it's own problems and limitations.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

spocko said:


> LOL! Very funny.
> 
> But I agree with the referenced post by SpiritualPoet. I think some people here need to lighten up a bit. Sure we'd all like to see Tivo introduce something newer and better, and I can understand disappointment about the lack of any new product info, but let's keep things in perspective. The Tivo S3/HD still do the job they were designed and advertised to do, and except for the few known issues already noted in this thread, they do that job very well. No other DVR solution on the market offers all the same capabilities, and each of the alternatives has it's own problems and limitations.


I think the problem is that Tivo hasn't done anything really hardware wise to make it feel like you are buying something current. If every year they had slightly increased storage, I think that would go a lot to stem the feeling like they aren't doing anything hardware wise. They might only be up to a 500gb or 640 gb drive, but it would still feel like forward momentum versus still with the 160gb.

As someone who will be buying/renting at least 2 DVRs for family members in the next 90 days or so Tivo is on my radar of course but they have fallen from definitely to maybe. All the people I am shopping for have Fios which is supposed to at least go to 320gb in the coming months so that may be the option until a hardware refresh or series 4. They also have new Windows 7 machines and one household has a 360 so that may be the option. At the same time I may just give them mine and go with Windows 7 100%.

While I don't necessarily look to CES to make my plans, it does give me more of an idea what to expect in the coming months.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

spocko said:


> (Dave, I think you're lucky that Tivo is still willing to share sensitive info with you after the "unhurried pace" incident.)


We have a symbiotic relationship, and generally very cordial. Sometimes poop happens, and hopefully we can learn from it and move on.

My meeting is tomorrow AM. So I can still tell you what we all probably assume - there's two boxes in works. The retail Premiere and the DirecTV TiVo. As I speculated back in November on ZNF, and continue to speculate now, they don't want to be overshadowed and they're not ready to ship. I can respect both of those points. Over the last few months, I've heard plenty of whispers from multiple directions and have a good idea on the retail front what's coming generally speaking. But there are plenty of gaps to be filled in and probably a few surprises. Someone I know who spoke with them already gave me a big thumbs up as we passed in the convention center earlier today. So I'm hoping for the best... TiVo invests tens of millions each year in R&D, so I'm ready to see some of those developments.  And we'll talk about them publicly when the time is right. Hopefully it won't be much longer.


----------



## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

Makes sense Dave, thanks for the update.


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> If every year they had slightly increased storage, I think that would go a lot to stem the feeling like they aren't doing anything hardware wise. They might only be up to a 500gb or 640 gb drive, but it would still feel like forward momentum versus still with the 160gb.


Why does that matter? Are you going to replace your TiVo because the newest model has slightly more storage? Both of my S3s already have 1TB. The only thing I am waiting for is the new DirecTiVo. It'll be ready when it's ready.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Kablemodem said:


> Why does that matter? Are you going to replace your TiVo because the newest model has slightly more storage? Both of my S3s already have 1TB. The only thing I am waiting for is the new DirecTiVo. It'll be ready when it's ready.


I wouldn't because I have lifetime with 2 upgraded. I tried to do the third but gave up due to all the issues with new WD drives. Those people who don't have lifetime and aren't comfortable upgrading their units might though. It might also attract people who have cable DVRs since now the base Tivo HD has more recording space than the average DVR. It might also get people talking about Tivo again.

It becomes harder and harder to recommend a Tivo that is 3-4 years old with nothing changed. Also the longer without refreshes the more it feels like a new model is around the corner so I might as well hold off. The only reason I even bought the Tivo HD was the clearance prices at Sears. If it wasn't for that, I probably would have just kept DTV with the SD Dtivos waiting for a series 4 or the new Dtivos.

I can't remember the last time I recommended a Tivo. It was probably back when Directv was still selling the series 2.


----------



## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

Kablemodem said:


> This kind of talk does not belong on the internet. Take it someplace else, buddy.


SO funny... some needed lightness in the discussion!

Everyone is being very tough on TiVo, but that's good! Most people understand that there's no perfect alternative, or even near-perfect... otherwise, we wouldn't be posting here... we'd be on XYZCommunity.com!

And in a perfect world, each person could mix-and-match features from the many different DVR and streaming alternatives to meet their personal needs. ...Not that that couldn't happen, but it's not likely anytime soon.

This type of discussion (which I'm sure TiVo keeps an eye on) and direct consumer feedback to TiVo puts appropriate pressure on our favorite DVR brand to keep developing and innovating, although it's never as fast or as inexpensive as we'd like! 

Personally, I think the Premiere hardware looks interesting, and clearly it's designed to lower hardware costs by eliminating jacks that are least in demand. Hopefully the savings goes to a new chipset / processor to increase performance, which is needed and would be appreciated by everyone from professional critics to consumers.

But what I'm really waiting for (and where the big development $$ and therefore product price/value goes) is the new software and content features... I wouldn't change the basic, best-in-class UI (I know some would like something new and jazzier, but you gotta admit, it's what most people have loved most about TiVo!).

But who knows what functionality and content features could be in store, thanks to all the feedback TiVo gets from us... Get ready, it looks like it'll be here soon!


----------



## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Haha.. Hotel security is at your door! Looks like Tivo was either booted from CES or ordered to pay up. Good 4 CES and Vegas! Looks like Tivo's customers aren't the only ones getting pissed off at some of Tivo's shenanigans.

http://www.dailytech.com/CES+Kicks+...Out+Business+in+Hotel+Suites/article17354.htm


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> This kind of talk does not belong on the internet. Take it someplace else, buddy.


Hahahahaha.... But what I really found funny is thinking about whether everyone in the thread understood the joke. I wonder how many people really believe that reasonable perspectives really don't belong online. It sure does seem like some...


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> Haha.. Hotel security is at your door! Looks like Tivo was either booted from CES or ordered to pay up. Good 4 CES and Vegas! Looks like Tivo's customers aren't the only ones getting pissed off at some of Tivo's shenanigans.
> 
> http://www.dailytech.com/CES+Kicks+...Out+Business+in+Hotel+Suites/article17354.htm


What makes you say that? There is no mention of TiVo in that article at all.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

fasTLane said:


> Whatever. If there are any more drops in HD programming for the DirecTivo before the new one is out, I will cut my subscription to the minimum and record OTA material. Waited long enough.


But, hey, at least DirecTV charges you the full HD programming fee as if you were getting the 100 HD channels. That's why I left years ago. You must have the patience of Job.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Two things:

1) TiVo was more than 10 years ahead of everybody so they had a bit of time buffer (heh!) to give them some slack.

2) TiVo better get closer to the "just works *now* STB, or

3) Apple will do it for them. If Apple puts a reasonable UI, a tuner and a scheduler in the AppleTV, it could very well be (sorry) the TiVo killer. Apple has a whole lot more market and mind share than TiVo.

I love them both, but TiVo IS behind the curve now.

I am sick, sick sick, of everthing being nice, sorta works, but almost. For now mainly the fricking copy flag is stupidly keeping me from real MRV. (I know. Not TiVo's fault.) I'd also need HD to SD conversion but I could do that through pyTiVo and kmttg.

I can't do VOD from Comcast but I can live with that - *except* I'M PAYING FOR IT.

If I had to deal with SRV that would set off the detonator.


----------



## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Shouldn't the thread title end with a couple of question marks? 


*** TiVo at CES 2010 ?????? ****


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bschuler2007 said:


> Haha.. Hotel security is at your door! Looks like Tivo was either booted from CES or ordered to pay up. Good 4 CES and Vegas!


What are you talking about? TiVo's reserved the same area _in the convention center_ that they have for years. The difference this time is that entrance is by invite only.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

davezatz said:


> What are you talking about?...


It seems this user has that effect on people: People's responses to bschuler2007. 

My ignore list has been increased by one because of this.


----------



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

spocko said:


> (Dave, I think you're lucky that Tivo is still willing to share sensitive info with you after the "unhurried pace" incident.)


unhurried pace incident? What was that about?


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> The three issues most widely reported...
> 
> 
> Basic cable customers without a CableCard periodically lose their analog channels with a gray screen.
> ...


I agree, but I was specifically talking about bugs. (2) and (3) are not Tivo issues although they could work around both (perhaps). That only leaves the analog bug and the now-rare Netflix lockup, which we agree only affects a small minority.

So the conclusion is the same, it's not a buggy DVR as asserted.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

spocko said:


> (Dave, I think you're lucky that Tivo is still willing to share sensitive info with you after the "unhurried pace" incident.)


Yeah, I was surprised by that too.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BlackBetty said:


> unhurried pace incident? What was that about?


http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7457944


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Someone I know who spoke with them already gave me a big thumbs up as we passed in the convention center earlier today.


So... thumbs up, wink, or nod?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=186505&site=cdn

Nice article on the status of tru2way thus far.

It sounds like things are moving along, but it will be much more interesting in the second half of the year. I'm thinking at this point it wouldn't be prudent for Tivo to release any "really new" S4-grade hardware that isn't tru2way compatible given the relatively short timelines discussed in the article.

Methinks Tivo will wait for the fall to launch. But if not, hopefully they'll make sure it is appropriately software/firmware upgradable to avoid any compatibility snafus this time around.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> I agree, but I was specifically talking about bugs. (2) and (3) are not Tivo issues although they could work around both (perhaps). That only leaves the analog bug and the now-rare Netflix lockup, which we agree only affects a small minority.
> 
> So the conclusion is the same, it's not a buggy DVR as asserted.


You call a device that can't reliably perform it's *PRIMARY* function (recording digital *and analog* television) not buggy? I beg to differ.


----------



## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It sounds like things are moving along, but it will be much more interesting in the second half of the year. I'm thinking at this point it wouldn't be prudent for Tivo to release any "really new" S4-grade hardware that isn't tru2way compatible given the relatively short timelines discussed in the article.


Why would TiVo be concerned with t2w compatibility, other than VOD content? Most of what t2w does would make your $400-600 TiVo as worthless as the cable company DVR; it uses the cable co EPG and puts a cable co skin on whatever the host hardware happens to be (be it STB or the TV itself).

Indications elsewhere, like the FCC's recent and practically shameless admission that CableCard is a failure, and the lack of support for future CableLabs products (has anyone at CES announced a t2w TV yet? anyone?) seem to point to CableCard dying a slow, DRM'ed death. It seems more prudent to me for the big cable players to integrate their catalogs to the TiVo interface than the other way around. Though prudence isn't what cable cos are known for...

http://hd.engadget.com/search/?q=tru2way
http://hd.engadget.com/search/?q=cablecard


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

The Entropic booth is showing a next-generation, DirecTV multi-room DVR at CES. It has "three or more satellite tuners" and streams both liveTV and recordings to "multiple clients" simultaneously using the existing coax in the home (MoCA), without the need for wired or wireless ethernet. It appears to be based on the BCM7420.

_How about them apples?_


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I think the key there is "next generation". As in, it will probably never come to market.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I think the key there is "next generation". As in, it will probably never come to market.


Well, it is running a version of the current DirecTV DVR software. The purpose of the display is to demo RVU, which DirecTV said it would support in early 2010.



> Rômulo Pontual, DIRECTV's chief technology officer:
> 
> "We believe both consumers and service providers will embrace consumer electronic equipment with RVU technology because it enables a high quality digital entertainment experience throughout the connected home. We are committed to the RVU technology and are planning to deploy it in media servers and clients beginning early in 2010." [Source]


With RVU, each tunerless client displays the same UI as the DVR, but can view a separate liveTV channel and/or recorded program. A home might have one of these DVRs and two or three tuner-less clients, which may or may not require any fees.


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

I heard that Tivo has a new DVR that users can upgrage to 1TB for free!


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> The Entropic booth is showing a next-generation, DirecTV multi-room DVR at CES. It has "three or more satellite tuners" and streams both liveTV and recordings to "multiple clients" simultaneously using the existing coax in the home (MoCA), without the need for wired or wireless ethernet. It appears to be based on the BCM7420.
> 
> _How about them apples?_


Now this is something I could go for. Of course that would mean going back to Directv which I don't know if I could do.


----------



## SouthPaw42 (Sep 26, 2008)

Well Tivo was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Tivo we now see their sunset days.

Intel demoed the future of setop box at IDF and TIVO hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new Intel boxes and will miss tivo.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/video-intel-tru2way-server-streams-cable-all-over-your-house/


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

SouthPaw42 said:


> Intel demoed the future of setop box at IDF and TIVO hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new Intel boxes and will miss tivo.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/video-intel-tru2way-server-streams-cable-all-over-your-house/


You realize that Intel isn't making those boxes, right? It's just a reference design that cable companies could adopt if they desired. No large MSO has announced plans for such a solution.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

cowboydren said:


> Why would TiVo be concerned with t2w compatibility, other than VOD content? Most of what t2w does would make your $400-600 TiVo as worthless as the cable company DVR; it uses the cable co EPG and puts a cable co skin on whatever the host hardware happens to be (be it STB or the TV itself).


The Tru2Way compatible TiVo was to have two sides, a TiVo interface for all the usual stuff we use it for plus built-in SDV support thanks to Tru2Way and then a Cable Co interface that would only rear it's ugly head when interactive services like VOD were needed. TiVo was moving in this direction back in 2007 when CableLabs agreed to this but it seems that TiVo have since changed their minds as their recent statements suggest they want open standards so they can use their own interface for both sides. That's all fine and dandy but it's already been three years. Are we to wait another three years while they hammer that one out? The cone of silence at CES this year is not exactly filling us with hope.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

SouthPaw42 said:


> Well Tivo was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Tivo we now see their sunset days.
> 
> Intel demoed the future of setop box at IDF and TIVO hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new Intel boxes and will miss tivo.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/video-intel-tru2way-server-streams-cable-all-over-your-house/


 A few factors to keep in mind though:
* Deployment of tru2way to a majority of markets is still a ways off, and with recent FCC sentiment may never really take off.
* Deployment for this was estimated not until 2011, and it's not up to Intel to make the server or client boxes and deploy them.
* You really want to use the crappy cable company UI for your DVR needs?
* Only 3 tuners for whole house.

So far the 4-tuner Ceton Windows MCE solution looks more attractive than this to me for a whole house solution (though it has it's share of issues as well) and will be available Q1 this year.


----------



## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

SouthPaw42 said:


> Well Tivo was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Tivo we now see their sunset days.
> 
> Intel demoed the future of setop box at IDF and TIVO hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new Intel boxes and will miss tivo.


Well Apple was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Apple we now see their sunset days.

Microsoft demoed the future of tablet computer at the keynote and Apple hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new HP/Microsoft boxes and will miss Apple.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I belive that TiVo and Google is be around till the end of time. What do you think?


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Here is a demo of the new RVU Directv whole house DVR that bkdtv was referring to.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/09/a-video-demo-of-rvu-extending-a-directv-dvr-to-another-room/


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

bicker said:


> My best guess is that consumers who are looking to CES to announce the next product they would want to buy are essentially setting themselves up for disappointment, and perhaps even engaging in a bit of mental masturbation. It is an industry trade show, not a shopping mall. The audience aren't consumers, but rather the folks who influence what consumers will buy: principally the media, and buyers for retailers. Consumers do tend to think that it is always "all about them" but the reality is quite a bit different.


Then why did Sony, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, etc. all announce their lineup of new products there? Why did they issue press releases with specs and prices? Who do you think is buying their products? We are! It _is_ all about us. Without us they are bankrupt.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

Brainiac 5 said:


> Well Apple was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Apple we now see their sunset days.
> 
> Microsoft demoed the future of tablet computer at the keynote and Apple hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new HP/Microsoft boxes and will miss Apple.


Except it has been widely reported since before CES on radio, television and print that Apple is announcing their tablet later this month at their own event.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Then why did Sony, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, etc. all announce their lineup of new products there? Why did they issue press releases with specs and prices? Who do you think is buying their products? We are! It _is_ all about us. Without us they are bankrupt.


I hardly think they'll go bankrupt if they don't make product announcements on CES... most people have never heard of it.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

RoyK said:


> You call a device that can't reliably perform it's *PRIMARY* function (recording digital *and analog* television) not buggy? I beg to differ.


Also the inability to transfer shows to a series 2 when SDV programs are in the NPL.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> I agree, but I was specifically talking about bugs. (2) and (3) are not Tivo issues although they could work around both (perhaps). That only leaves the analog bug and the now-rare Netflix lockup, which we agree only affects a small minority.
> 
> So the conclusion is the same, it's not a buggy DVR as asserted.


There is no proof one way or the other that the TiVo isn't causing the TA issues. So until we have that proof both devices could be said to be buggy. Also the cable companies certainly respond to issues with their device(the TA) quickly enough when called. I'd like to see TiVo do the same with their equipment.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> There is no proof one way or the other that the TiVo isn't causing the TA issues. So until we have that proof both devices could be said to be buggy.


I think it's rather unlikely that both Moxi and Windows 7 Media Center exhibit the same bug. Both exhibit the same behavior with the TA resets and loss of all channels. People have switched from TiVo to Moxi to Media Center, only to see the same problem with the same TA.

One problem I haven't seen mentioned on other platforms is the pixelization reported by some on SDV channels. That could be TiVo specific.


----------



## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

SouthPaw42 said:


> Well Tivo was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Tivo we now see their sunset days.
> 
> Intel demoed the future of setop box at IDF and TIVO hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new Intel boxes and will miss tivo.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/video-intel-tru2way-server-streams-cable-all-over-your-house/





Brainiac 5 said:


> Well Apple was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Apple we now see their sunset days.
> 
> Microsoft demoed the future of tablet computer at the keynote and Apple hasn't replied so it is their loss. I welcome the new HP/Microsoft boxes and will miss Apple.





TWinbrook46636 said:


> Except it has been widely reported since before CES on radio, television and print that Apple is announcing their tablet later this month at their own event.


Some REALLY hilarious stuff in this thread!! Thanks for the laughs!


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

From CES


----------



## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Wow those inflatables are great. And yet no public presence by Tivo at the show. As that wacky Vulcan once said. "Fascinating."


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

yeah they were HUGE and right at 2 of the 3 main entrances!!!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

ufo4sale said:


> I belive that TiVo and Google is be around till the end of time. What do you think?


I'd say TiVo would be bought later not sooner. If not for that pesky poison pill.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

TiVoHD was not unveiled at CES. Last big unveil by TiVo at CES was the S3 wasn't it? (and even that was mainly covered by Megazone, no?)


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

SullyND said:


> TiVoHD was not unveiled at CES. Last big unveil by TiVo at CES was the S3 wasn't it? (and even that was mainly covered by Megazone, no?)


It wasn't a 'big unveil'. It was sitting in a closed box in the corner. They didn't have a booth then either. Just investors and media, and a few fans.

I believe the cablecard tivo was at CES for two years in a row before it was released 9 months later...


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

SullyND said:


> TiVoHD was not unveiled at CES. Last big unveil by TiVo at CES was the S3 wasn't it?


The TiVoHD is not "big" - it's simply a lower cost version of the Series 3. TiVo, IMHO, has really only had 3 models for the cable market - the Series 1, the Series 2, and the Series 3. I am not convinced that there will be a Series 4, and I certainly wouldn't purchase it if it came out today even though I've owned the first 3 models. Frankly, if my Series 3 died tomorrow, I'm not sure what I'd replace it with...


----------



## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Except it has been widely reported since before CES on radio, television and print that Apple is announcing their tablet later this month at their own event.


And TiVo will announce their next box whenever they want to.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

ewilts said:


> The TiVoHD is not "big" - it's simply a lower cost version of the Series 3.


Right. And were people really expecting TiVo to unveil something "bigger" than a TiVoHD level update? TiVo is stuck at the whim of the Cable industry - It's not like they could just say screw it, we're releasing a product that works our way, to hell with the cablecos. Tru2way is not ready, if it ever will be. The DirecTV box is likely controlled by DirecTV's leash.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Why have those huge inflatables at the show and NOT make any announcements?
Seems like a waste. Tivo must not be 'hurting' for money as most people seem to think.


----------



## eaayoung (Feb 5, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> I think it's rather unlikely that both Moxi and Windows 7 Media Center exhibit the same bug. Both exhibit the same behavior with the TA resets and loss of all channels. People have switched from TiVo to Moxi to Media Center, only to see the same problem with the same TA.
> 
> One problem I haven't seen mentioned on other platforms is the pixelization reported by some on SDV channels. That could be TiVo specific.


My S3 with a TA has been rock solid since I dumped an external drive. It took a while to finally discover this was my problem, but once I divorced the ext drive, the S3 works great with the TA. No pixalzation for my area which is Bright House of Central FL. I know TW in Carolinas is having a problem with the TA but it may be specific for that cable system.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

RoyK said:


> You call a device that can't reliably perform it's *PRIMARY* function (recording digital *and analog* television) not buggy? I beg to differ.


You beg to differ because it affects you and a small minority of users. That does not make it a buggy device for most.

I agree that it's a bad bug that should've been fixed for good by now, though.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

eaayoung said:


> My S3 with a TA has been rock solid since I dumped an external drive. It took a while to finally discover this was my problem, but once I divorced the ext drive, the S3 works great with the TA. No pixalzation for my area which is Bright House of Central FL. I know TW in Carolinas is having a problem with the TA but it may be specific for that cable system.


The Cisco TAs work perfectly fine on some systems. On other systems they aren't perfect -- they might reset once a month -- but work well for the most part.

The problem is that they don't work well at all on some (many?) systems, and the result on those is frequent TA resets resulting in the regular loss of channels for virtually all CableCard users on those systems. I'm told by TiVo and Moxi that those problems relate to the cable/head-end configuration; some systems have engineers with the competence (and will) to fix these problems while others do not.

If Verizon FiOS isn't available as an alternative, then the cable system may not feel much pressure to investigate and address the issue.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

SouthPaw42 said:


> Well Tivo was nice while it lasted with the CES 2010 coming to a close and no product from Tivo we now see their sunset days.


How silly.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Then why did Sony, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, etc. all announce their lineup of new products there?


Because they were ready to present something to the folks who influence what consumers will buy. (Did you even _read_ the message you replied to? ... or are you just posting detritus because you're frustrated?)


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Adam1115 said:


> I believe the cablecard tivo was at CES for two years in a row before it was released 9 months later...


A cable card TiVo non-working concept box appeared one year under glass then the next year they had the S3. As you say the S3 wasn't actually available until 9 months later. That didn't help TiVo move their S2 inventory and they had to write down a lot of it.

The HD wasn't unveiled at CES. It was mentioned in March at an investors conference in March that TiVo was working on a lower cost model and then it appeared in July. The XL wasn't hinted at all before it appeared.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> You beg to differ because it affects you and a small minority of users. That does not make it a buggy device for most.
> 
> I agree that it's a bad bug that should've been fixed for good by now, though.


Nor does your claim that it affects only a "small minority" of users make that a fact.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I'd encourage anyone who is upset over the lack of announcements at CES or who consideres TiVo to be "buggy" to move on to something else. Please move on as soon as possible. TiVo is never going to please you.


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> A cable card TiVo non-working concept box appeared one year under glass then the next year they had the S3. As you say the S3 wasn't actually available until 9 months later. That didn't help TiVo move their S2 inventory and they had to write down a lot of it.


That's right.. I went to their room for booth of those. I think the year before was a series 2 mocked up as an OTA HD TiVo.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

nrc said:


> I'd encourage anyone who is upset over the lack of announcements at CES or who consideres TiVo to be "buggy" to move on to something else. Please move on as soon as possible. TiVo is never going to please you.


Actually it will take very little for TiVo to please me. All they need to do is fix their bug so that when I sit down to watch a recording I can have a reasonable expectation that the recording will be there and be complete. I don't believe that's an unreasonable thing to expect of a piece of equipment designed and marketed to record television, do you?


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

nrc said:


> I'd encourage anyone who is upset over the lack of announcements at CES or who consideres TiVo to be "buggy" to move on to something else. Please move on as soon as possible. TiVo is never going to please you.


No! I like the humor of people saying TiVo sucks so they're going to DirecTV mostly works or Comcrap DVRs.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> It's been that way for years.
> 
> But every time I've stopped by they've let you come in a say hi...


No, TiVo's meeting room was WAY more closed this time. I've been going to CES for years and in the past they at least had most of the meeting room opened up w/stuff on display and stations (TV and TiVos) and some people on hand to answer questions. I've been able to say hi to folks like TivoPony, TivoShanan, TivoOpsMgr, etc. and at least get past the front desk and no hardware was even visible from the front desk. It was probably behind the walls they setup.

This year, I couldn't even go past the front desk and they told me that it wouldn't be opened for people other than those who have appointments. I did pick up a plush doll though (like in many years past).

Yeah, I saw the huge inflatables outside.  On Saturday, I saw someone passing out Tivo lanyards near one of the inflatables.

MANY years ago, when Tivo and Replay were in their infancy, they both had booths at CES right next to each other. TiVo eventually just went w/meeting rooms only.

As for TiVo HD being "buggy", yes, it's a little buggy but in terms of overall recording reliability, it's been rock solid for the 3.5 months I've had mine so far just as all my other TiVos have been. I have no hesitation in recommending one and would buy the same unit if I had to do it all over. (I'm running w/CableCARD on Verizon FiOS.)


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

David Ortiz said:


> It is just a meeting area. There was nothing on display, but I did get one of those cool plush TiVo dolls.


Well... there were other areas behind the meeting area you saw from the front desk. And better schwag too. Which I'm giving away. :up:


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

RoyK said:


> Actually it will take very little for TiVo to please me. All they need to do is fix their bug so that when I sit down to watch a recording I can have a reasonable expectation that the recording will be there and be complete. I don't believe that's an unreasonable thing to expect of a piece of equipment designed and marketed to record television, do you?


Does TiVo contain bugs? Yes, as does all software. Is it "buggy" as most people would define the term? No.

You're the victim of one specific bug affecting a limited number of users. That doesn't mean that the software is what most people would consider "buggy".

If you think that it's unreasonable that TiVo has not yet resolved this problem you would be better served to move on to something else.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

nrc said:


> Does TiVo contain bugs? Yes, as does all software. Is it "buggy" as most people would define the term? No.
> 
> You're the victim of one specific bug affecting a limited number of users. That doesn't mean that the software is what most people would consider "buggy".
> 
> If you think that it's unreasonable that TiVo has not yet resolved this problem you would be better served to move on to something else.


Are you saying that this defect which keeps this DVR from reliably recording and which YOU SAY affects a limited number of users but which postings on this indicate affect a fair number of them remaining unfixed after over a year is reasonable? That's absurd.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

A lot of us were expecting to see the new TiVo-powered DirecTV HD box at CES. Since we didn't, it is evidently further out than the revised dates given by TiVo and DirecTV.


----------



## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

stevel said:


> A lot of us were expecting to see the new TiVo-powered DirecTV HD box at CES. Since we didn't, it is evidently further out than the revised dates given by TiVo and DirecTV.


I think we can conclude that's possible, but it may also simply be that they didn't want to show it for some reason only TiVo and/or DirecTV know. Certainly seeing it would have given us more information on it's status that the fact that we didn't see it.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Are you saying that this defect which keeps this DVR from reliably recording and which YOU SAY affects a limited number of users but which postings on this indicate affect a fair number of them remaining unfixed after over a year is reasonable? That's absurd.


It _is_ a limited number. Probably a very limited number. 217,488 TCF members make up about 14% of TiVo's 1,537,000 subscribers. I believe that if a subscriber did have the same problem you are experiencing, they would more than likely join TCF to vent their outrage/frustration, or look for some kind of solution, so there would actually be a concentration of people sharing your TiVo problem in TCF. However, I do not believe that all TCF members have this problem, or even half the members have this problem, or even a quarter of the members have this problem. I believe the problem effect a single digit percentage of subscribers, with even that being generous. I can see why this would not be a priority for TiVo. Isn't it possible you just have a dud DVR, and a model with a different manufacture date would solve the issue?


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> It _is_ a limited number. Probably a very limited number. 217,488 TCF members make up about 14% of TiVo's 1,537,000 subscribers. I believe that if a subscriber did have the same problem you are experiencing, they would more than likely join TCF to vent their outrage/frustration, or look for some kind of solution, so there would actually be a concentration of people sharing your TiVo problem in TCF. However, I do not believe that all TCF members have this problem, or even half the members have this problem, or even a quarter of the members have this problem. I believe the problem effect a single digit percentage of subscribers, with even that being generous. I can see why this would not be a priority for TiVo. Isn't it possible you just have a dud DVR, and a model with a different manufacture date would solve the issue?


OK, so let's say that 5% have this problem. That's 76,850 users that aren't happy. If TiVo is comfortable with pissing off 76,850 users, I guess that's their call to make, but at $12.95 per month per subscriber, that's nearly $12M in lost revenue annually of all of them leave. If only 10% of the users find the problem serious enough, that's still over a million bucks that TiVo is leaving on the table.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ewilts said:


> OK, so let's say that 5% have this problem. That's 76,850 users that aren't happy. If TiVo is comfortable with pissing off 76,850 users, I guess that's their call to make, but at $12.95 per month per subscriber, that's nearly $12M in lost revenue annually of all of them leave. If only 10% of the users find the problem serious enough, that's still over a million bucks that TiVo is leaving on the table.


I'm just saying there are bigger issues that effect a lot more subscribers that they are probably (or should be) working on. MRV "streaming" for one to get past the CCI byte issues that many more complain about, more than those with analog cable issues.

I've been holding my tongue until now because I know this has nothing to do with TiVo at CES.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> It _is_ a limited number. Probably a very limited number. 217,488 TCF members make up about 14% of TiVo's 1,537,000 subscribers. I believe that if a subscriber did have the same problem you are experiencing, they would more than likely join TCF to vent their outrage/frustration, or look for some kind of solution, so there would actually be a concentration of people sharing your TiVo problem in TCF. However, I do not believe that all TCF members have this problem, or even half the members have this problem, or even a quarter of the members have this problem. I believe the problem effect a single digit percentage of subscribers, with even that being generous. I can see why this would not be a priority for TiVo. Isn't it possible you just have a dud DVR, and a model with a different manufacture date would solve the issue?


Would be highly coincidental that both my neighbor (who bought his TiVoHD months after I did) and I both have duds that just happen to have the identical problem.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Would be highly coincidental that both my neighbor (who bought his TiVoHD months after I did) and I both have duds that just happen to have the identical problem.


How about taking your TiVo to a friend's house that has a different provider to see if it exhibits the same behavior?


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> How about taking your TiVo to a friend's house that has a different provider to see if it exhibits the same behavior?


How about TiVo fixes the bug so that my TiVoHD can pick up analog cable the way all my tvs can, my 3 S2s can, my vcrs can and the tuners in my media center PC can.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> How about TiVo fixes the bug so that my TiVoHD can pick up analog cable the way all my tvs can, my 3 S2s can, my vcrs can and the tuners in my media center PC can.


My point was maybe it's not the TiVo, but your provider.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> My point was maybe it's not the TiVo, but your provider.


Sure. Sure. Not even you believes that. Only the TiVoHD has the problem and its something wrong with the provider? Give me a break.


----------



## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

nrc said:


> If you think that it's unreasonable that TiVo has not yet resolved this problem you would be better served to move on to something else.


It appears you and TiVo have a lot in common. Suggesting people move on from their investment/service commitment just because they are unhappy with TiVo's lack of timely fixes for a number of issues is irresponsible; as is TiVo for not addressing them.

It is called supporting a product and service you have charged for and continue to charge for. In this regard, TiVo is as poor at this as any company I have witnessed in modern times. It seems clear TiVo spends little percentage of the service fees subscribers continue to pay for on improving the software that delivers that service.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Is Tivo buggy? Kinda. Things have cropped up and Tivo has been pretty slow if not thus far unresponsive to repair many of them. At best, it's showing its age. One fix creates another bug. One feature creates a handful more. They're not keeping up with themselves.

The excuse of bugs affecting too few people to be worth fixing is silly. Tivo's a niche product as it is. 1.5 million users, less than a grand total of 400K CableCards in circulation. That means a darn good bunch of people are still S2 and S3/HD analog users.

And when you happen to be in the "minority" experiencing SEVERAL of these alleged "to few to matter" bugs, being casually dismissed is no consolation.

Of course, it's forum users (not Tivo) using that language, and they're only guessing with no authority on the subject. Rather, Tivo says nothing other than an occasional limp acknowledgment. The lack of action while still somehow spending $60 million/year in R&D suggests they're more interested in keeping their faces looking forward for the next box they can sell us instead of timely fixing many of the problems they created.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Sure. Sure. Not even you believes that. Only the TiVoHD has the problem and its something wrong with the provider? Give me a break.


It's a lot better of an explanation for those with analog cable that don't have this problem! Yes?


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> It's a lot better of an explanation for those with analog cable that don't have this problem! Yes?


No. Besides TiVo has acknowledged the bug so stop blowing smoke.


----------



## jobey (Nov 18, 2002)

RoyK said:


> No. Besides TiVo has acknowledged the bug so stop blowing smoke.


Not making excuses for TiVo here, as if its a known bug it needs to be fixed. However, I've heard that MANY (most?) of cable providers are totally switching to digital over the next couple of years, and discontinuing the analog signal altogether.

If its a low percentage of people who are experiencing the analog bug, maybe they are having a hard time duplicating it in-house to fix it (I'm just guessing here, as I don't know the history of your problem)?

As a software developer, I know how bug fixing is a priority, but some fairly rare bugs are just too damn hard to fix taking into account time and resources (and the ability to actually duplicate the bug).


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> It is called supporting a product and service you have charged for and continue to charge for. In this regard, TiVo is as poor at this as any company I have witnessed in modern times. It seems clear TiVo spends little percentage of the service fees subscribers continue to pay for on improving the software that delivers that service.


the flip side of this still exists as well - if TiVo has a hard time replicating the problem then no amount of money is going to get a fix. Throwing a lot of money at this could be highly irresponsible of TiVo inc. unless TiVo inc. saw that they were loosing a lot of money because of the problem.
On the flip side I have a variety of TiVo DVRs that continue to record shows with 99.99999% reliability and I have better wishlist functionality and better features for getting other content. I think TiVo is looking forward and doing a good job with that. I still contend that the analog problem is not a widespread issue and I base that on the reaction from TiVo.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

solutionsetc said:


> It appears you and TiVo have a lot in common. Suggesting people move on from their investment/service commitment just because they are unhappy with TiVo's lack of timely fixes for a number of issues is irresponsible; as is TiVo for not addressing them.


I believe that TiVo makes an good effort to fix problems in a reasonable time frame. Are they always successful? No, but no software company dealing with this many variables with the resources available to TiVo will be.

People are welcome to complain if they're not happy about TiVo's service. But those who really believe that TiVo is "buggy", unresponsive to customer needs, or that their technology is hopelessly outdated because they didn't make an announcement at CES would really be better served to find another solution as soon as possible.

Note, as a I said in my original comment, "as soon as possible". I didn't suggest that anyone should have to eat a commitment or take a huge loss.

Either TiVo is doing just fine on those fronts and losing a few squeaky wheels won't make any difference or TiVo needs to get the message and voting with your feet is going to be the only way to deliver it.

"Irresponsible?" Irresponsible would be suggesting that anyone should stick with TiVo even though they're dissatisfied.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> No. Besides TiVo has acknowledged the bug so stop blowing smoke.


Then how exactly do YOU explain those that have analog cable and don't exhibit the problem?


----------



## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Then how exactly do YOU explain those that have analog cable and don't exhibit the problem?


Software bugs frequently don't affect everyone. Even under very similar conditions. One (or even thousands) of working DVR's doesn't mean the bug doesn't exist.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> Software bugs frequently don't affect everyone. Even under very similar conditions. One (or even thousands) of working DVR's doesn't mean the bug doesn't exist.


I absolutely do not doubt there is a bug in the way TiVo handles certain analog signals. I believe RoyK. However, I do not believe that it effects every TiVo HD unit, as RoyK likes to believe. What bothers me is when RoyK states that new users will experience the same problem when there is nothing to back it up. Yes, RoyK and his neighbor has a problem. To me, that sounds pretty localized given they probably have the same provider. So yes, it may be true that every new user in RoyK's neighborhood will have that problem.

Of course there are others that have the same problem, but it is not known what the root of that problem is. Perhaps the provider has a non-standard way of distributing an analog signal that the TiVo doesn't account for, hence "the bug". Who's to say that another provider does does adhere to standards, and the TiVo works fine?


----------



## Amiga (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm sick and tired of Countdown (and other programs) being recorded twice on the same day.

Dig TiVo, but getting the vibe they are in this to hawk our data 24/7. FYI, I _have_ opted out of their crap. Windows 7 Media Center is looking more and more attractive with the new CableCARD tuners introduced at CES and Lifextender to deal with the commercials.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Amiga said:


> I'm sick and tired of Countdown (and other programs) being recorded twice on the same day.


Have you tried the tupper method? The alternative is to create a repeating manual recording to restrict it to a single timeslot.

Windows Media Center uses the same Tribune guide data, and is even worse when it comes to recording duplicates of programs with bad guide data. Windows Media Center makes it easier to limit recording to a single timeslot, thereby eliminating the daily duplicates, but you should be able to achieve the same result on TiVo with a repeating manual recording.


----------



## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

We have the grey screen on analog problem.



> I believe that TiVo makes an good effort to fix problems in a reasonable time frame.


 Only on problems they care about. They never did fix the S1 DST bug (well SA, it was fixed for the DTiVos which makes the SA situation even more annoying). The S3 grey screen bug is over a year old.


----------



## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

ADent said:


> Only on problems they care about. They never did fix the S1 DST bug (well SA, it was fixed for the DTiVos which makes the SA situation even more annoying).


Uh, yes they did. I no longer regularly use my S1, and as I recall there is some problem with the displayed times for a few weeks, but it will correctly record the programs you intend.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

a68oliver said:


> Uh, yes they did. I no longer regularly use my S1, and as I recall there is some problem with the displayed times for a few weeks, but it will correctly record the programs you intend.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.


If I understand correctly the S1 DST problem was fixed by a user. TiVo merely distributed the fix.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> I absolutely do not doubt there is a bug in the way TiVo handles certain analog signals. I believe RoyK. However, I do not believe that it effects every TiVo HD unit, as RoyK likes to believe. What bothers me is when RoyK states that new users will experience the same problem when there is nothing to back it up. Yes, RoyK and his neighbor has a problem. To me, that sounds pretty localized given they probably have the same provider. So yes, it may be true that every new user in RoyK's neighborhood will have that problem.
> 
> Of course there are others that have the same problem, but it is not known what the root of that problem is. Perhaps the provider has a non-standard way of distributing an analog signal that the TiVo doesn't account for, hence "the bug". Who's to say that another provider does does adhere to standards, and the TiVo works fine?


What part of "Tivo has acknowledged the bug" don't you understand? Prior to the last software "update" there were no issues with gray screens that I know of.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

nrc said:


> ...
> 
> Either TiVo is doing just fine on those fronts and losing a few squeaky wheels won't make any difference or TiVo needs to get the message and voting with your feet is going to be the only way to deliver it....


Lets see. How many subscriptions has TiVo lost over the last two years?


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

How many subscriptions would TiVo have lost if the bug wasn't there? For all we know, probably just about the same number.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> orangeboy said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely do not doubt there is a bug in the way TiVo handles certain analog signals. I believe RoyK...
> ...


Huh?


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> How many subscriptions would TiVo have lost if the bug wasn't there? For all we know, probably just about the same number.


In other words you have no idea.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Jesus man, give it a rest. What percentage of Tivo HD users with Cablecard still record analog? The answer is, probably not many, for exactly the reason bkdtv mentioned - their system has already converted them to all digital (including mine, long ago, even though we haven't gone through the full Comcast migration).

And of that small percentage, what percentage has the bug? Who knows, but it's not everyone.

Again, it is a bad bug that they should fix, but that does NOT make the device as a whole, for all users, 'buggy'.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> In other words you have no idea.


Nor do you.

Who might have some better idea?

Oh yeah... TiVo Marketing.

Imagine that.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> Nor do you.
> 
> Who might have some better idea?
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct. And it would be in the best interest of TiVo Marketing to admit that the company is losing subscribers because of poor support wouldn't it? No, they wouldn't lie about something like that would they? No motive at all to do something like that.


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jesus man, give it a rest. What percentage of Tivo HD users with Cablecard still record analog? The answer is, probably not many, for exactly the reason bkdtv mentioned - their system has already converted them to all digital (including mine, long ago, even though we haven't gone through the full Comcast migration).


Not all systems that converted dropped analog. If I pulled the CableCARDs out of my TiVo today, I'd have analog signals instead of digital. I'd actually have MORE channels than I get through the CableCARDs since my basic Comcast subscription doesn't include things like ESPN but the analog signal is still being delivered.



> Again, it is a bad bug that they should fix, but that does NOT make the device as a whole, for all users, 'buggy'.


I saw the total system lockup again yesterday while attempting to watch a show on Netflix. In the time it took the S3 to boot, I went downstairs, grabbed my Roku player, hooked it up, and started watching the movie.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of R&D money that TiVo is spending is not on hardware or user-facing software but figuring out how to sell and place more obnoxious ads on our screens and sell information what we're doing. The S3 is a dead platform to us - nothing is getting fixed and the only changes we're seeing is more friggin' ads.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

@Roy How incredibly inane.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

RoyK said:


> What part of "Tivo has acknowledged the bug" don't you understand? Prior to the last software "update" there were no issues with gray screens that I know of.


As I've been saying to you for months (in appropriate threads, as opposed to threads like these that you insert yourself into), but you've been ignoring, it sounds like a TiVo bug triggered by something in your (and my) particular signals. My guess is that it is in the low-level signal code that TiVo had to alter for the FIOS signal solution, which came out later in the same round of updates. It might be a bug in TiVo's software, it might be a bug in the Broadcomm chip now being triggered by the changed TiVo code.

You've got 300,000 people running on identical hardware with identical software, and probably less than 10,000 people have the bug. (You can quibble about the figures, but it makes no difference to the argument.) There has to be something prompting the problem on your TiVo and not on other people's TiVos who can record analog signals fine.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> ....
> 
> Again, it is a bad bug that they should fix, but that does NOT make the device as a whole, for all users, 'buggy'.


Never said it did.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> .....
> 
> You've got 300,000 people running on identical hardware with identical software, and probably less than 10,000 people have the bug. (You can quibble about the figures, but it makes no difference to the argument.) There has to be something prompting the problem on your TiVo and not on other people's TiVos who can record analog signals fine.


And your point is what? That, assuming you are correct, I should just shut up and accept the fact that the TiVoHD that I shelled out for sometimes shows gray screens and loses recordings on the same system that as far as I know no other piece of television equipment has the slightest problem with?

Sorry. I won't do that.


----------



## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

What does the past two pages of discussion have to do with TiVo at CES? It appears this thread has gone completely off topic from the stated title. If you want to talk about TiVo bugs, please take it to a new thread or one of the many existing ones out there. Please leave this one for discussion of TiVo's announcements (or lack of accouncements) at CES.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

RoyK said:


> Lets see. How many subscriptions has TiVo lost over the last two years?


Not enough, evidently.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

StuffOfInterest said:


> What does the past two pages of discussion have to do with TiVo at CES? It appears this thread has gone completely off topic from the stated title. If you want to talk about TiVo bugs, please take it to a new thread or one of the many existing ones out there. Please leave this one for discussion of TiVo's announcements (or lack of accouncements) at CES.


I agree. Lets get back to all the interesting stuff that TiVo has done at CES. Where were we? Oh, yeah, they blew up a couple of balloons and put them by the entrances.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

RoyK said:


> And your point is what? That, assuming you are correct, I should just shut up and accept the fact that the TiVoHD that I shelled out for sometimes shows gray screens and loses recordings on the same system that as far as I know no other piece of television equipment has the slightest problem with?
> 
> Sorry. I won't do that.


The point is that you have been WRONG several times in this thread. You are attacking people who are correcting you only on the things that you are wrong about.

Nobody has denied there is a TiVo bug. Nobody has said you should just shut up about the bug.

But when you falsely complain that anybody who gets analog will have the bug, you're going to get corrected because you are wrong about that. And when you falsely claim that there's no way it can be caused by a bad signal from your provider, you're going to get corrected about that because you are wrong.

I understand you want attention, but to falsely claim the problem is much bigger than it is just makes you look foolish and detracts from your very legitimate basic complaint.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

what RoyK thought said:


> Absolutely correct. And it would be in *MY* best interest *for* TiVo Marketing to admit that the company is losing subscribers because of poor support wouldn't it? No, they wouldn't lie about something like that would they? No motive at all to do something like that.


I think it more likely your thought process went along the lines of the two words I changed in your post denoted in bold above


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I agree. Lets get back to all the interesting stuff that TiVo has done at CES. Where were we? Oh, yeah, they blew up a couple of balloons and put them by the entrances.


And this excuses your rude posting style that continually disrupts the forum and threads with way off topic posts how? 
You do more damage to your cause by acting like a troll who has to resort to desperate measures to make some point, than if instead you acted maturely and knew you had made your point in the proper threads that were on the topic of your problems with your TiVo.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> But when you falsely complain that anybody who gets analog will have the bug, you're going to get corrected because you are wrong about that. And when you falsely claim that there's no way it can be caused by a bad signal from your provider, you're going to get corrected about that because you are wrong.


Care to point out where I said that everybody who gets analog will be bothered by the bug? I don't believe I ever said that. Nor did I ever say that there's no way that it can be caused by a bad signal from my provider.

What I did say is that MANY who get analog are affected by the bug and AFAIK no other television device has a bit of problem with the signal that my provider, er, provides.



CrispyCritter said:


> I understand you want attention, but to falsely claim the problem is much bigger than it is just makes you look foolish and detracts from your very legitimate basic complaint.


I don't want attention. I want the PROBLEM to receive attention. So far TiVo seems to be ignoring it.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Woohoo, TiVo balloons!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> What I did say is that MANY who get analog are affected by the bug


 if you really wanted to help then start trying to get a handle on the real number instead of throwing out adjectives like many.


> I don't want attention. I want the PROBLEM to receive attention. So far TiVo seems to be ignoring it.


again you make a point that you have no idea has any basis in fact. TiVo is not speaking publicly about the problem. That is all you know.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> And this excuses your rude posting style that continually disrupts the forum and threads with way off topic posts how?
> You do more damage to your cause by acting like a troll who has to resort to desperate measures to make some point, than if instead you acted maturely and knew you had made your point in the proper threads that were on the topic of your problems with your TiVo.


I think you'll find that my initial posting on this thread was in response to a post by bktv among a group of posts already discussing bugs on the TiVoHD and most if not all of my other posts were responses to posts by others.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

davezatz said:


> Well... there were other areas behind the meeting area you saw from the front desk. And better schwag too. Which I'm giving away. :up:


Someone on dbstalk states that they had nothing to show in the rooms. Not clear if they got into the inner enclave or not.



> Now the bad news - they had nothing to show, nothing on display (other than general Tivo marketing materials, and promo items.
> 
> Nothing - no hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

RoyK said:


> I agree. Lets get back to all the interesting stuff that TiVo has done at CES. Where were we? Oh, yeah, they blew up a couple of balloons and put them by the entrances.


It's like when stores set up those search lights in the parking lot for a grand opening only TiVo set them up in the middle of a cornfield instead.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Your small print notwithstanding the gray screen IS an issue with cable cards on MANY cable systems. I realize you probably tire of me complaining but I don't really care. Having such a show-stopping (literally) bug without fixing it for more than a year is a disgrace.





RoyK said:


> I think you'll find that my initial posting on this thread was in response to a post by bktv among a group of posts already discussing bugs on the TiVoHD and most if not all of my other posts were responses to posts by others.


You are correct in how you entered the thread but perhaps if you had posted accurately in that first post it would have helped the noise level considerably. Also your statement in this first post that you know people tire of you complaining but you just don't care is precisely what I was speaking about. Your first post here confirms you are being deliberately rude and disruptive to get your complaint heard. 
Your frustration is more than legit but I for one do not think the ends justify the means you employ here.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

RoyK said:


> Care to point out where I said that everybody who gets analog will be bothered by the bug? I don't believe I ever said that. Nor did I ever say that there's no way that it can be caused by a bad signal from my provider.


For the bad provider signal, this post here in which you state


> Sure. Sure. Not even you believes that. Only the TiVoHD has the problem and its something wrong with the provider? Give me a break.


For the implication that all analog users have the problem, this post.

Continuing on with your statement here:


RoyK said:


> I don't want attention. I want the PROBLEM to receive attention. So far TiVo seems to be ignoring it.


Then I think that much less of you, Roy, that you believe in order to get TiVo's attention you have to annoy the rest of us by posting in inappropriate threads. There are other much more direct ways to get TiVo's attention, including doing your complaining in TiVo's forums. I had thought your constant complaints here were aimed at us, not TiVo.


----------



## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

RoyK said:


> If I understand correctly the S1 DST problem was fixed by a user. TiVo merely distributed the fix.


Yes, that is correct. However, I believe it takes some active effort from Tivo semi-annually to push the fix at the correct time of year.

It counts as a fix for me.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> For the bad provider signal, this post here in which you state...


And I stand by that. Let me say it again - If televisions don't have the problem with my provider's signal, if VCRs don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if S3 TiVos don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if the tuners in my Media Center PC don't have a problem with my provider's signal --- if no other device that I know of has a problem with my provider's signal but my TiVoHD *does* have a problem then I maintain the problem lies within the TiVoHD!

I agree that there may be something about my provider's signal that the TiVoHD can't handle gracefully but everything else in the world DOES.



CrispyCritter said:


> For the implication that all analog users have the problem, this post.


Read it again. I said only users who want to record analog have the problem -- I did not say (or imply) that ALL users who want to record analog are having a problem. Users who do not want to record analog do not have the problem.



CrispyCritter said:


> Continuing on with your statement here:
> 
> Then I think that much less of you, Roy, that you believe in order to get TiVo's attention you have to annoy the rest of us by posting in inappropriate threads. There are other much more direct ways to get TiVo's attention, including doing your complaining in TiVo's forums. I had thought your constant complaints here were aimed at us, not TiVo.


You thought wrong except I'm tired of those who minimize the problem or pooh-pooh it as trivial because they don't happen to be bothered by it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> And I stand by that. Let me say it again - If televisions don't have the problem with my provider's signal, if VCRs don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if S3 TiVos don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if the tuners in my Media Center PC don't have a problem with my provider's signal --- if no other device that I know of has a problem with my provider's signal but my TiVoHD *does* have a problem then I maintain the problem lies within the TiVoHD!


could you not just simply state that it is a combo of the signal and the TiVo HD. Also that not all TiVo HDs recording analog see this problem.


----------



## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the flip side of this still exists as well - if TiVo has a hard time replicating the problem then no amount of money is going to get a fix. I still contend that the analog problem is not a widespread issue and I base that on the reaction from TiVo.


Possibly, but I was not referring to the analog issue. The issues I had in mind are long standing, and easily reproducible (at least they are here).



nrc said:


> I believe that TiVo makes an good effort to fix problems in a reasonable time frame. Are they always successful? No, but no software company dealing with this many variables with the resources available to TiVo will be.
> 
> People are welcome to complain if they're not happy about TiVo's service. But those who really believe that TiVo is "buggy", unresponsive to customer needs, or that their technology is hopelessly outdated because they didn't make an announcement at CES would really be better served to find another solution as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


What I think is irresponsible is sticking your head in the sand just because you don't experience the issues, proclaiming "all is well" and suggesting people move on. TiVo has lost and continues to lose many subscribers. That is not a positive stat for anyone but the cable and dish providers. My experience has always been that the squeaky wheel is most likely the one to get lubricated, yet you seem to feel it is better to just remove the wheel, and that silence (and the lack of voiced dissatisfaction) is golden. OK maybe not irresponsible, but remarkably short-sighted. Remove enough wheels and all you have left is a giant paper-weight.

I am not a TiVo hater; nor do I consider myself remarkably dissatisfied. But I AM less than satisfied that every time I transfer two different shows in a row it transfers the same show twice. I am less than satisfied the desktop software needs to be rebooted just about every time I have a need to use it. I am less than satisfied TiVo Search is still way too buggy. And I am less than satisfied that the TiVo interface has been stagnant and essential obsolete for years (lists with 4 inch tall letters showing only a few characters of a show or movie title); but I won't go in to other feature based functionality that has been missing for years as this thread seems to have become mostly focused on bugs.



StuffOfInterest said:


> What does the past two pages of discussion have to do with TiVo at CES? It appears this thread has gone completely off topic from the stated title. If you want to talk about TiVo bugs, please take it to a new thread or one of the many existing ones out there. Please leave this one for discussion of TiVo's announcements (or lack of accouncements) at CES.


Very well, but understand it is difficult to avoid rebutting rebuttal. (c;

To me it seems TiVo wants to do what they can to remain in the market's eye, but with little compelling reasons of late to do so. They appear to be going into that mode (leverage, leverage, leverage) that many companies do when they have either run out of innovation, or the resources and expertise to implement it. Hence the big balloons and the marketing data-speak, as well as their CEO's interviews skirting all questions about hardware. I am hopeful that TiVo has some really big plans, but that the timing is just not right. But with that said, it is hard for me to imagine anyone seeing this years presence at CES in a positive light.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> could you not just simply state that it is a combo of the signal and the TiVo HD. Also that not all TiVo HDs recording analog see this problem.


Didn't I just say that? I just want to put the emphasis where it belongs - that AFAIK no device with the exception of the TiVoHD has any problem whatsoever with my cable company's signal.

Ergo the TiVoHD is incapable of handling analog television at least as well as everything else.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

I figure there won't be any announcements until after January 17th, because that's when my three-year service for my S3's is up. I've tentatively signed up for Lifetime at that time, but was hoping to learn something from CES to let me know if that was the right call. So of course that didn't happen.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

RoyK said:


> And I stand by that. Let me say it again - If televisions don't have the problem with my provider's signal, if VCRs don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if S3 TiVos don't have a problem with my provider's signal, if the tuners in my Media Center PC don't have a problem with my provider's signal --- if no other device that I know of has a problem with my provider's signal but my TiVoHD *does* have a problem then I maintain the problem lies within the TiVoHD!
> 
> I agree that there may be something about my provider's signal that the TiVoHD can't handle gracefully but everything else in the world DOES.


IMO, you're 0 for 2 here, Roy. You're both dodging the issue AND contradicting yourself.

I'll break it apart and make it simpler for you: Do you agree that your statement that I linked to says that the problem is not caused by a bad signal from your provider?

Now for the second part as to whether it's possible that the TiVoHD can't handle a bad signal that other things can (but the signal is still bad): Of course it is, and as a long-time reader of TiVoCommunity you should know very well that it happens often. A couple of examples, one current, one old and well-known:
1. SCSIRAID's current investigation where he shows that HDTiVo pixelation on SDV channels for some TWC franchises is due to shows entering and leaving the bundle of shows at a head-end due to TA activity (no pixelation on other equipment).
2. The old TiVo Desktop partial transfer bug, where a "glitch" in the recorded signal interrupts the transfer of a show to the PC, even though the show plays with only a small glitch on the TV, and can often be transferred to other TiVos without problem.



RoyK said:


> Read it again. I said only users who want to record analog have the problem -- I did not say (or imply) that ALL users who want to record analog are having a problem. Users who do not want to record analog do not have the problem.


Sorry, Roy, in English discourse you assume the speaker is trying to convey information, rather than a tautology (that the analog channel bug affects those recording analog channels). If you don't want readers to assume you're trying to convey information, then let us know. (But you have many more problems with your inaccuracies in that case). The implication is there, IMO.



RoyK said:


> You thought wrong except I'm tired of those who minimize the problem or pooh-pooh it as trivial because they don't happen to be bothered by it.


And who might that be, Roy, surely not me, given I've stated how it has affected me several times to you?


----------



## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

And the thread has devolved into arguments... Great.

What happened to the CES coverage?


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I believe that topic was covered completely. From what I recall, TiVo was there, had some pretty good visibility at the entries, had some private meeting areas which were impossible to get into without invitation, and made no public announcements of significance. Regarding the devolvement, I guess some of that stemmed from some folks expressing frustration that they didn't get inside insights that they felt that they were somehow entitled to, and/or TiVo was somehow morally obligated to provide.

Does that pretty-much cover it?


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> IMO, you're 0 for 2 here, Roy. You're both dodging the issue AND contradicting yourself.
> 
> I'll break it apart and make it simpler for you: Do you agree that your statement that I linked to says that the problem is not caused by a bad signal from your provider?


No I do not agree that there is anything 'bad' about the signal. I have no idea -- nor the measuring equipment to determine -- whether or not the signal is within specification.. Nothing else, however, has the slightest problem with it,



CrispyCritter said:


> Now for the second part as to whether it's possible that the TiVoHD can't handle a bad signal that other things can (but the signal is still bad): Of course it is, and as a long-time reader of TiVoCommunity you should know very well that it happens often. A couple of examples, one current, one old and well-known:
> 1. SCSIRAID's current investigation where he shows that HDTiVo pixelation on SDV channels for some TWC franchises is due to shows entering and leaving the bundle of shows at a head-end due to TA activity (no pixelation on other equipment).
> 2. The old TiVo Desktop partial transfer bug, where a "glitch" in the recorded signal interrupts the transfer of a show to the PC, even though the show plays with only a small glitch on the TV, and can often be transferred to other TiVos without problem.


Both of which illustrate that other equipment handles real-life situations better than the TiVoHD. Why?



CrispyCritter said:


> Sorry, Roy, in English discourse you assume the speaker is trying to convey information, rather than a tautology (that the analog channel bug affects those recording analog channels). If you don't want readers to assume you're trying to convey information, then let us know. (But you have many more problems with your inaccuracies in that case). The implication is there, IMO.


You are entitled to your opinion.


CrispyCritter said:


> And who might that be, Roy, surely not me, given I've stated how it has affected me several times to you?


No. Not you.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

djwilso said:


> And the thread has devolved into arguments... Great.
> 
> What happened to the CES coverage?


It ended yesterday.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So where is the BestBuy TiVo? when will that be for sale?

Oh and no problems with my nine boxes, not even when I had comast on one box for 6 months in 2008/2009.


----------



## Brainiac 5 (Aug 25, 2003)

bicker said:


> Does that pretty-much cover it?


Yes.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

RoyK said:


> No I do not agree that there is anything 'bad' about the signal. I have no idea -- nor the measuring equipment to determine -- whether or not the signal is within specification.. Nothing else, however, has the slightest problem with it,


Note that once again, you did not answer my question.

If you're not willing to admit you're wrong, even when it is this flagrant, then it's clear to me that you're not interested at all in reasonable discourse or to convey information. I will in the future not aim comments at you, but at your audience who you are misleading.

(Also note, I am not objecting to your statement here, but to your earlier linked statement, which you then denied making.)


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

RoyK said:


> No I do not agree that there is anything 'bad' about the signal. I have no idea -- nor the measuring equipment to determine -- whether or not the signal is within specification.. Nothing else, however, has the slightest problem with it


IMHO all of your complaints are legit. It doesn't matter how many people have a same problem you do, or how many people don't have a problem at all. YOU have a problem and it by itself makes your complaints legit.
But unfortunately, the only real solution to your problem is what *nrc* suggested - walk away from HD Tivo. If you have lifetime on it - sell it on e-bay. If you are monthly - call TiVo and tell them that you want to cancel because the bug they admitted to has not been fixed.
There isn't anything you can do short of that. TiVo is not likely to fix a bug that only affects small percentage of users and you will not get anywhere complaining on this board because people on this board who don't have the same problem as you do will have no sympathy for you. If anything, they would prefer TiVo to spend money fixing problems they have or to develop new hardware or software.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> I figure there won't be any announcements until after January 17th, because that's when my three-year service for my S3's is up. I've tentatively signed up for Lifetime at that time, but was hoping to learn something from CES to let me know if that was the right call. So of course that didn't happen.


I don't remember the current service plans - is there a month-to-month option? My S3 3-year service is up in June... hoping for some news by then, but I was planning on going month to month otherwise until some info is released about the TiVo Premiere.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I believe that topic was covered completely. From what I recall, TiVo was there, had some pretty good visibility at the entries, had some private meeting areas which were impossible to get into without invitation, and made no public announcements of significance. Regarding the devolvement, I guess some of that stemmed from some folks expressing frustration that they didn't get inside insights that they felt that they were somehow entitled to, and/or TiVo was somehow morally obligated to provide.
> 
> Does that pretty-much cover it?


You forgot that all this meant the end of TiVo


----------



## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

Given the recent "Tivo Premiere" accidental instruction sheet slip-up, I would guess that Tivo is very closed to being ready to ship a new box. However, I wouldn't expect them to announce it until at least February. I know a number of people who bought TivoHD's as Christmas presents (either for themselves or for family members), and I suspect a lot of Tivo's sales happen during the December holiday season. Since Tivo offers a 30-day money-back guarantee, they would probably get a large number of returns if they announced a new product at CES.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

samo said:


> IMHO all of your complaints are legit. It doesn't matter how many people have a same problem you do, or how many people don't have a problem at all. YOU have a problem and it by itself makes your complaints legit.
> But unfortunately, the only real solution to your problem is what *nrc* suggested - walk away from HD Tivo. If you have lifetime on it - sell it on e-bay. If you are monthly - call TiVo and tell them that you want to cancel because the bug they admitted to has not been fixed.
> There isn't anything you can do short of that. TiVo is not likely to fix a bug that only affects small percentage of users and you will not get anywhere complaining on this board because people on this board who don't have the same problem as you do will have no sympathy for you. If anything, they would prefer TiVo to spend money fixing problems they have or to develop new hardware or software.


I do have another solution which, thankfully, I have the resources to use. I back up all the analog recordings that I really care about on one of my S2 boxes or my media center PC. It's pathetic that this is necessary, however, but it is.

As for TiVo not fixing the bug, all I can say is when they fix it I'll stop posting complaints about it (providing that they don't, as they are prone to do, break something else in the process).


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> So where is the BestBuy TiVo? when will that be for sale?


We don't know. The only people who might are the few who were allowed to sign NDAs and get entrance into TiVo's private, behind the curtain, tour/presentation.

TiVo didn't announce anything publicly; nothing on the BestBuy TiVo, nothing on the TiVo Premiere (from this thread: [thread=440096]Series 4 to be called "Tivo Premiere"?[/thread]), nothing on the new DirecTV/TiVo; nothing.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

djwilso said:


> What happened to the CES coverage?





orangeboy said:


> It ended yesterday.




Yup, nothing to talk about until Dave spills his guts, so we might as well keep speculating and complaining to pass the time.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> ...
> 
> TiVo didn't announce anything publicly; nothing on the BestBuy TiVo, nothing on the TiVo Premiere (from this thread: [thread=440096]Series 4 to be called "Tivo Premiere"?[/thread]), nothing on the new DirecTV/TiVo; nothing.


Tivo has read up on the Osborne Effect, just like Steve Jobs who was there at the time.


----------



## VonBrick (Jul 31, 2007)

Wow. All this talk of bugs in a device that hasn't received what I would consider a major update in years and is being completely surrounded by competing products. I think there are much bigger issues with TiVo than two year old bugs.

We've made the switch to a Win7 Media Center PC with HDHomeRun and love it. The XBOX is an Extender with the best/fastest Netflix interface I've seen. Now with 1080p downloads from XBOX Live, I mean, really? As recently as last night, a friend saw the MC interface and said (quoting now): "What the Hell is that and how do I get it?"

I still pay the monthly charge to TiVo on one HD unit, but it's just backup for us. We've moved on.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

netringer said:


> Tivo has read up on the Osborne Effect, just like Steve Jobs who was there at the time.


I'd assume that's why everything is under wraps.

Certainly TiVo tried to place their last couple of product annoucements (TiVo HD, TiVo HD XL) as close to release as possible. IIRC the TiVo HD got some mention/hints in the invester calls but the HD XL wasn't really leaked until it started showing up in retailer's inventory systems.

Of course, if NotVeryWitty's guess of Febuary was correct, I expect we'd have seen some of those same retailer inventory system leaks by now. So I suspect anything TiVo might have is a bit further out than that. But I'd love to be proved wrong


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

VonBrick said:


> As recently as last night, a friend saw the MC interface and said (quoting now): "What the Hell is that and how do I get it?"


Were you sre to tell him that the Nice UI would not include channels that were encrypted or on SDV. That he would need a 600$ card from Ceton when that comes out to do so and would of course still need to get the cable company to come and install those items.

I can agree that that the HD and graphic s intensive UIs are really shiny and that TiVo is a decide plain Jane in that regard - just make sure you give all the facts behind that shiny interface as well.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I don't remember the current service plans - is there a month-to-month option?


Yes. They put you on month-to-month automatically at the end of your commitment, unless you tell them otherwise.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bicker said:


> I believe that topic was covered completely. From what I recall, TiVo was there, had some pretty good visibility at the entries, had some private meeting areas which were impossible to get into without invitation, and made no public announcements of significance. Regarding the devolvement, I guess some of that stemmed from some folks expressing frustration that they didn't get inside insights that they felt that they were somehow entitled to, and/or TiVo was somehow morally obligated to provide.
> 
> Does that pretty-much cover it?


Oh your forgot to mention Media Center, and Moxi, and all the other planned DVRs planned to release this year. If you mean moral obligation, meaning Tivo should stay in business, then i guess peoples expectations are right. I wont be buying another Tivo.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> Oh your forgot to mention Media Center, and Moxi, and all the other planned DVRs planned to release this year. If you mean moral obligation, meaning Tivo should stay in business, then i guess peoples expectations are right. I wont be buying another Tivo.


I don't see a connection with your reply to what you quoted


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> I don't see a connection with your reply to what you quoted


Exactly, this is about TIVO at CES. Not Moxi at CES or MCE at CES.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

steve614 said:


> Exactly, this is about TIVO at CES. Not Moxi at CES or MCE at CES.


And how Tivo flatlined again.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> I wont be buying another Tivo.


I think, in your case, that's a *big *win for TiVo.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> I don't see a connection with your reply to what you quoted


Because anything Tivo releases , has already been released by other manufacturers.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Were you sre to tell him that the Nice UI would not include channels that were encrypted or on SDV. That he would need a 600$ card from Ceton when that comes out to do so and would of course still need to get the cable company to come and install those items.
> 
> I can agree that that the HD and graphic s intensive UIs are really shiny and that TiVo is a decide plain Jane in that regard - just make sure you give all the facts behind that shiny interface as well.


Not sure where you got $600 from since they announced the card at $399 MSRP for the quad tuner and expect it to be available by March 31st. Amazon is the first vendor they have announced and Ace Computers had a PC at CES with two cards for 8 tuners that they expect to sell for less than $2000 or the price of 4 Tivo HDs with lifetime.

Also with the Ceton card encrypted channels and SDV would be supported. Of course for the SDV you would need the free tuning adapters.

As far as getting them installed, I don't see why it would be any different than getting a cable card installed in a Tivo.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> Not sure where you got $600 from since they announced the card at $399 MSRP for the quad tuner and expect it to be available by March 31st.


 my mistake on the price, thanks for correcting.

Note - I said they would need the card *to get* the encrypted channels and SDV - though it is unclear how SDV dongles will work in conjunction with each other to get more than 2 tuners enabled for SDV.

And yes of course - the same guy from cable company would come to install on either platform. 

My post was all about don't let the shiny UI give you the feeling it will all be easy sailing and it is more than just buying the PC at best buy and plugging it in, same as for TiVo if you want cable cards in it.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I was excited about the 4-tuner Ceton as well, and $400 I think is a very reasonable initial price. However the biggest problem with MCE solution is lack of affordable extenders. I would not consider Xbox360s affordable or quiet extenders. If you want to have an "official" xbox solution then you are looking at around $200 per extender and if you want netflix streaming then another $40/year or so for Live Gold subscription. Plus on top of all that you need a decent desktop PC that can handle the load.
Then of course are the limitations of MCE software itself (no advanced wishlists) and having to deal with MSFT updates, etc.
I'll still keep an eye on it but I hardly see MCE + 4-tuner Ceton as real competition to TiVo for the mass market - Moxi fits that bill better though it too has lots of issues.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...though it is unclear how SDV dongles will work in conjunction with each other to get more than 2 tuners enabled for SDV..


 That's only an issue for Cisco TAs. The Motorola TAs can handle up to 6 streams, so only 1 Mcard + 1 TA needed on Motorola systems.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

VonBrick said:


> Wow. All this talk of bugs in a device that hasn't received what I would consider a major update in years and is being completely surrounded by competing products. I think there are much bigger issues with TiVo than two year old bugs.
> 
> We've made the switch to a Win7 Media Center PC with HDHomeRun and love it. The XBOX is an Extender with the best/fastest Netflix interface I've seen. Now with 1080p downloads from XBOX Live, I mean, really? As recently as last night, a friend saw the MC interface and said (quoting now): "What the Hell is that and how do I get it?"
> 
> I still pay the monthly charge to TiVo on one HD unit, but it's just backup for us. We've moved on.


I've been using Win7 Media Center PC with dual Hauppage analog/digital tuners for several months now. I agree, it's super. About the only negative thing I can say about it is that the text on the interface is a bit small on my 46" TV for my old eyes to read easily from my recliner across the room. We've especially enjoyed the Internet TV feature.

Nice, also, to be able to sit fire up Media Center at my PC (in my room) and watch the recordings on the Den's Media Center just as if I was sitting in the den -- no extender required. Even deleting them when I'm finished if I like.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> my mistake on the price, thanks for correcting.
> 
> Note - I said they would need the card *to get* the encrypted channels and SDV - though it is unclear how SDV dongles will work in conjunction with each other to get more than 2 tuners enabled for SDV.
> 
> ...


No worries. I must have misread your post since I took it to mean even with the card you couldn't do SDV and encrypted channels thinking you were talking about shows marked as copy protected.

Actually they have tested the SDVs and they can either be piggybacked on each other or you connect them to individual USB ports. I believe the one tester active on the greenbutton has 3 of them since he has the 6 tuner card for testing purposes and has had no issues with them. I haven't kept up on that part of it though since no need with Fios.


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

moyekj said:


> However the biggest problem with MCE solution is lack of affordable extenders. I would not consider Xbox360s affordable or quiet extenders. If you want to have an "official" xbox solution then you are looking at around $200 per extender and if you want netflix streaming then another $40/year or so for Live Gold subscription. Plus on top of all that you need a decent desktop PC that can handle the load.
> Then of course are the limitations of MCE software itself (no advanced wishlists) and having to deal with MSFT updates, etc.
> I'll still keep an eye on it but I hardly see MCE + 4-tuner Ceton as real competition to TiVo for the mass market - Moxi fits that bill better though it too has lots of issues.


Engadget HD seems to think which they have been wrong of course in the past that we may see new extenders in the next 9 months or so. The original extenders didn't start to roll out till about 9 months later after the launch of Vista.

I would also expect some are sitting by to see how well the Ceton card and other devices sell. If it is received well I could see them releasing new extenders or developing newer versions of devices like WDTV which also work as an extender.

I think the same thing could also be said about the WHS being widely accepted and look how well those have taken off with just about every company offering some version. If the WHS2 offers tuner support, I could easily see companies like HP offering media servers with built in tuners off the shelf.

Either way this year will be interesting. I just wish Tivo was included in that which so far doesn't appear to be the case. If Tivo announced a server model with 4+ tuners preferably 6 and streaming support, I think Ceton would be a second choice for me.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jesus man, give it a rest. What percentage of Tivo HD users with Cablecard still record analog?


I would record analog *if I could*. That is, I'd use analog for the stations I get in analog, and the cablecard for the rest.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

bicker said:


> Regarding the devolvement, I guess some of that stemmed from some folks expressing frustration that they didn't get inside insights that they felt that they were somehow entitled to, and/or TiVo was somehow morally obligated to provide.


Morally obligated? 

How about those that feel TiVo can do no wrong and take it personally when someone dares claim otherwise?


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

djwilso said:


> What happened to the CES coverage?


There wasn't anything announced at CES so there is nothing to cover. CES is over so might as well close this thread.


----------



## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> It wasn't a 'big unveil'. It was sitting in a closed box in the corner. They didn't have a booth then either. Just investors and media, and a few fans.


Not true. TiVo has always had the suite, same as this year. While not technically a 'booth' on the show floor, until this year it was open to any attendees and had many demos and products exhibited. And the Series3 was DEFINITELY not "sitting in a closed box in the corner"! They had a working box connected to a TV in a faux living room setup, and another box sitting out for photos. See my post from CES 2006, and the follow-up photo post. (Yes, some of the facts in the post are wrong - some due to confusion on my part at the time, others due to simple communication errors when I was talking to TiVo.)



> I believe the cablecard tivo was at CES for two years in a row before it was released 9 months later...


An early prototype CableCARD box was shown, under glass, at CES2005. But CableCARD really didn't get any traction until mid-2006, so the Series3 came out while things were still just getting rolling. The year before that, CES2004, TiVo had shown a reference OTA-only HD DVR, which was available if any partner wanted to build it - no one did, unsurprisingly.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> How about those that feel TiVo can do no wrong and take it personally when someone dares claim otherwise?


I haven't met any such people. The difference you seem to miss is that difference between reasonable expectations (such as my expectation that TiVo's CableCARD implementation should have been more robustly designed, or that TiVo's eSATA drive implementation shouldn't fail as often as it has -- use the frakking Search if you want to read-up on my criticisms along those lines), and *unreasonable expectations* (such as the expectation by some folks in this thread that they are owned information for which they have *no* frakking entitlement).


----------



## jmace57 (Nov 30, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> So... thumbs up, wink, or nod?


SAY NO MORE!

(is she a goer, eh...a goer? nudge, nudge, wink, wink)


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

bicker said:


> I haven't met any such people.


LOL, they are all over this forum actually. These are the same people who jump all over DirecTV's DVR for any little bug ready to bury it while at the same time when Tivo have a bug it's immediately glossed over as "not a big deal" or "doesn't effect anyone" as seen in this very thread.

Can't have it both ways and be viewed with any integrity.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I probably have most of those folks on Ignore. 

The point, though, is that the accusation was made in this thread, apparently in reaction to messages posted in this thread, and in that context, it was just a childish rant, and rightfully responded-to as such.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

CEA (which runs CES) apparently got vendors kicked out of suites if they were showing products in the suites rather than paying for show floor booths.


----------



## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> LOL, they are all over this forum actually. These are the same people who jump all over DirecTV's DVR for any little bug ready to bury it while at the same time when Tivo have a bug it's immediately glossed over as "not a big deal" or "doesn't effect anyone" as seen in this very thread.
> 
> Can't have it both ways and be viewed with any integrity.


Really? Can you please name such people who are "all over this forum" ? (Bonuses if they appear in this thread.)

I haven't seen such people either, and if they are all over this forum, you would think I would have.


----------



## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> I would record analog *if I could*. That is, I'd use analog for the stations I get in analog, and the cablecard for the rest.


Why? Since the digital transition every stations output is digital, recording the Analog signal is Digital -> analog -> Digital. Why not record the digital and view the program exactly as it was transmitted to you instead of a lower quality copy.


----------



## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

petew said:


> Why? Since the digital transition every stations output is digital, recording the Analog signal is Digital -> analog -> Digital.


You're funny. Absolutely NOTHING mandated that the digital transition do anything at all to the cable company offerings. It ONLY affected over-the-air broadcasts. Cable companies can pretty do much whatever they want as long although I do believe that they must deliver the locals in at least an analog format or provide tuning adapters to those that need them.



> Why not record the digital and view the program exactly as it was transmitted to you instead of a lower quality copy.


I don't know about the original poster, who may be receiving only the analog broadcasts, but with my basic Comcast subscription, I get the digitals only for a select set of stations. The rest of them (e.g ESPN, TNT, USA, etc.) I get as analog. My CableCARDs don't even see these stations but my TV does. If I pulled my CableCARDs I'd be able to receive these on my TiVo too.
When I originally had a more expensive Comcast subscription, I had all of the stations in digital format.

You also need to recognize that for some customers, they can receive a weaker analog signal or NO digital signal at all - digital simply does not have the coverage that analog has. Digital is great for those of us that can get it - it's a slap upside the head for a lot of others.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

stevel said:


> CEA (which runs CES) apparently got vendors kicked out of suites if they were showing products in the suites rather than paying for show floor booths.


Really?!?! That's a first. I didn't know there was such a rule. If so, many vendors have been violating this for a long time.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

cwerdna said:


> Really?!?! That's a first. I didn't know there was such a rule. If so, many vendors have been violating this for a long time.


http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=17354


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

stevel said:


> CEA (which runs CES) apparently got vendors kicked out of suites if they were showing products in the suites rather than paying for show floor booths.


crazy!!!

all the meetings I had with companies that had a lot of products to show us were in hotel suites, maybe a lot cheaper that way too 

Man, one day I went from the Riviera, to MGM Grand to Bellagio to 4 seasons then to CES then Encore!!!

uhh that was a long day!


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MikeMar said:


> crazy!!!
> 
> all the meetings I had with companies that had a lot of products to show us were in hotel suites, maybe a lot cheaper that way too
> 
> ...


Apparently it was only in the Hotel that was hosting CES where the event holders had influence.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah, just looked back at my calendar, it seems like I had a meeting in every hotel BUT the Vanician (where there was CES stuff as you say)


----------



## Exige240 (Nov 26, 2009)

I know this is probably not the right place for this, but being a possible Ces fall out related question, I'll ask.

I purchased 2 tivo Hd boxes on black Friday for 199 each. I toyed around with whether I should open them or not for almost a month. I found a faq thread on this forum which said there's a 7 day trial with the Tivo's and if we didn't like them we could just return them. I opened and set them up to find I needed the cable cards(which I knew originally but somehow forgot since they were in the boxes for over a month and opening them was like a kid with a new toy at x-mas). I went to my local Cox cable to pick up some cable cards and get them going since my 7 day trial was now ticking down. Cox argued with me on how Tivo's don't require cable cards and I just needed to swap my cox dvr's for regular hd boxes which would feed the Tivo's. LOL I argued with the guy for 15 mins and finally made him take one of the Motorola boxes out from behind the counter so I could show him where their own boxes had M cards in them. 
Once convinced he told me that a tech needed to come out and set them up.(not sure why as I knew more then them from 1 night of reading on this forum) 

My question is, should I keep both boxes setup and now pay to have them activated at a 1 year rate, or just keep 1 of them for now and return the other, just in case a new version is released in a month or 2? (keeping in mind that I only paid 199.00 each for them in the first place)
Does anyone know if there's a new"upgraded" box in the works for sure or is it all speculation?
I also bought 2 wireless cards at the same time but got raped at 69.99 each, so I'll defiantly be returning them to BB with the 1 box. Amazon has them for 40.00 so I'll grab them there. (unless someone knows a cheaper place)

Again, I know this is in the wrong place, but only have a few days left to be able to return these if needed. Catching up on all this Tivo stuff is tough, this forum would take years to go through.lol
Thanks in advance for your opinions! Flame suit on.lol


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> crazy!!!
> 
> all the meetings I had with companies that had a lot of products to show us were in hotel suites, maybe a lot cheaper that way too
> 
> ...


When the CES was in Chicago, before the McCormick place annex was built, they used to OFFICIALLY have demos in the suites in the adjacent hotel for high end audio like Mark Levinson in particular. I spotted Henry Kloss hisself once. 

The locations were in the show directory.


----------



## shady (May 31, 2002)

Exige240 said:


> My question is, should I keep both boxes setup and now pay to have them activated at a 1 year rate, or just keep 1 of them for now and return the other, just in case a new version is released in a month or 2? (keeping in mind that I only paid 199.00 each for them in the first place)
> Does anyone know if there's a new"upgraded" box in the works for sure or is it all speculation? .....


Welcome to the forum

Speculation is all we have at the moment. If you read some of the newer threads in this forum, you probably know as much as anyone.

Here are some things to consider.

Once taking Tax into account, your $199 "deal" at bestbuy is probably equivalent to what Amazon is selling them for ($219)

Did you already get your cablecards installed? As your cable company doesn't allow for new self installs, will you have to pay again if they come out to install new equipment?

Does the current TiVo do everything you want it to do?


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Exige240 said:


> I know this is probably not the right place for this, but being a possible Ces fall out related question, I'll ask. ... should I keep both boxes setup and now pay to have them activated at a 1 year rate, or just keep 1 of them for now and return the other, just in case a new version is released in a month or 2? (keeping in mind that I only paid 199.00 each for them in the first place)
> Does anyone know if there's a new"upgraded" box in the works for sure or is it all speculation?


I have no insider info, but there is speculation that Tivo has something coming.
One member of this forum got a TivoHD, and there was an insert inside the box which gave instructions on how to install a cable card in the "Tivo Premier".
So, if you were to take my suggestion, I'd say to return one unit and use the other to make sure you like it. Then do a wait and see for the new unit.
My $.02.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ewilts said:


> You're funny. Absolutely NOTHING mandated that the digital transition do anything at all to the cable company offerings. It ONLY affected over-the-air broadcasts. Cable companies can pretty do much whatever they want as long although I do believe that they must deliver the locals in at least an analog format or provide tuning adapters to those that need them.
> 
> I don't know about the original poster, who may be receiving only the analog broadcasts, but with my basic Comcast subscription, I get the digitals only for a select set of stations. The rest of them (e.g ESPN, TNT, USA, etc.) I get as analog. My CableCARDs don't even see these stations but my TV does. If I pulled my CableCARDs I'd be able to receive these on my TiVo too.
> When I originally had a more expensive Comcast subscription, I had all of the stations in digital format.
> ...


I thought the point was that all the broadcasters are sending a digital signal now. So even if the cable company has an analog channel. They are taking a digital signal and converting it to analog. Then the DVR is taking the analog signal and converting it back to digital.
So just avoid any conversion and record the digital signal. At least that's what I thought was the point.

For me, I'll stick with my TiVos. I was recording HD broadcasts with my PC back in 2001 and moved on from PC based recordings. I currently have no desire to go back to PC based recordings but you never know.
Although my ideal box would handle everything. I would love for my new media players to be able to play the encypted TiVo files and just have one box to access everythign with a TiVo interface.


----------



## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

ufo4sale said:


> I belive that TiVo and Google is be around till the end of time. What do you think?


DIfference is only one of them is really making any money.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

petew said:


> Why? Since the digital transition every stations output is digital, recording the Analog signal is Digital -> analog -> Digital. Why not record the digital and view the program exactly as it was transmitted to you instead of a lower quality copy.


Because, I (sometimes) *want* a lower quality copy. I admittedly am recording *some* things on my Tivo with cablecards because of the better quality picture [ignoring artifacts, which do sometimes happen and IMHO digital artifacts are way worse than analog artifacts].. But for *most* of the things I record, I would gladly prefer the less space used over the (usually) better picture.

I record practically everything (in analog) in Basic quality. Tivo Basic recordings seem to be about half as big as the lowest quality digital recordings. I have a mostly full 1 TB drive on my *analog only* S3.. The TivoHD (which has the cablecards) has the stock drive for now. Yes, I can/should upgrade my TivoHD's drive..

and I admit I am thinking strongly about getting cablecards for the S3 too (looks like it might be just $1.70/month, since I'd move the 2 S cards from my TivoHD and get an M card for the TivoHD).. But I still would like the *option* of recording analog.

I realize it'll never happen, and is fairly low on my list of things with Tivo that should be fixed. (Don't get me wrong, Tivo is in the top few electronic devices I've ever owned, I still think there are a million things that could be better.) Heck, even if it tuned it in analog, and then digitized THAT as Tivo Basic, I'd get the better picture AND disk savings, both.


----------



## Exige240 (Nov 26, 2009)

shady said:


> Welcome to the forum
> 
> Speculation is all we have at the moment. If you read some of the newer threads in this forum, you probably know as much as anyone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the replies guy's.
To answer your questions. Yes Cox came out and we did the cable card installs on both boxes, they are both up and running now and on the 7 day trial. I was lucky though and they only charged me the install charge for 1 card which was like 45.00. They said they were technically supposed to charge me 90.00 for both. The tech also installed an amp since my house has the line split several times and I was concerned that I might end up with signal issues. He spent like 3-4 hrs here testing every outlet.

I have 1 day left before the Tivos lock up and I'll have to pay for the subscriptions. If I were to return 1 of the boxes I would probably keep the cable card out of it and pay the couple dollars a month rental on it. That way I can install it into the new box when and if it comes out. I'm sure they will want someone to come out again but I might be able to just call the tech line and get them to just activate it if I do the self install. I know all the info they will be looking for since I helped the tech setup these 2 now. They use the excuse that they don't stock the cable cards at the retail store and only the techs carry them because of the difficulty installing them, I'll already have one and will explain to the tech line that I can give him all the needed info. 
Well I at least hope so. I guess we will have to see. The good thing here is that I wanted them to take back one of my cox dvrs and leave me a standard Hd cable box so we can still get the on demand stuff, well since my dvr is the older Motorola DCT-6412 III they were able to just turn off the dvr function with a flash from the hub, so now I can just call and have them enable it for me again and not lose a dvr during the waiting period.
Thanks for the advice guys. I hope I can still return it since BB has extended return time for stuff bought on Black Friday.


----------



## cfan63 (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks for all the good info>


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Exige240 said:


> I would probably keep the cable card out of it and pay the couple dollars a month rental on it. That way I can install it into the new box when and if it comes out. I'm sure they will want someone to come out again but I might be able to just call the tech line and get them to just activate it if I do the self install.


I would do the same. Just don't volunteer any information. As far as you're concerned, the cable card quit working. They don't need to know why, that's their problem to figure out. It's up to them to get it working again.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

stevel said:


> http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=17354


Weird. In the recent past, the high end audio demos were at the Alexis Park suites. We're talking brands like Mark Levinson and Meridian. You can't properly demo audio equipment very well on the noisy show floor anyway. (I only went to this part of the show once myself.)

They then moved to the Venetian. This stuff was even mentioned in the official show maps and directories.


----------



## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> Really? Can you please name such people who are "all over this forum" ? (Bonuses if they appear in this thread.)
> 
> I haven't seen such people either, and if they are all over this forum, you would think I would have.


One needs to only look at the DirecTivo forums the past couple years to find them and some have posted in this very thread. It's kinda funny actually. But anyway...


----------



## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

ewilts said:


> You're funny. Absolutely NOTHING mandated that the digital transition do anything at all to the cable company offerings.


No. But most if not all the contemporary TV output will originate from Digital sources. Even if the cable co coverts it to Analog for retransmission.



ewilts said:


> I don't know about the original poster, who may be receiving only the analog broadcasts, but with my basic Comcast subscription, I get the digitals only for a select set of stations. The rest of them (e.g ESPN, TNT, USA, etc.) I get as analog.


If Comcast in your area moves the way Comcast Bay Area did you'll lose all but analog versions of broadcast chanels soon enough.



mattack said:


> Because, I (sometimes) *want* a lower quality copy.


Valid reason. Though IMHO by using the tools such as pyTivo you could record in Digital, transcode to mp4 and push back a much smaller copy with better quality than the Tivo Basic analog recording.


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

petew said:


> N
> Valid reason. Though IMHO by using the tools such as pyTivo you could record in Digital, transcode to mp4 and push back a much smaller copy with better quality than the Tivo Basic analog recording.


That's too much work.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

lvthunder said:


> That's too much work.


Was that intended as sarcasm? I've got kmttg and pyTivo installed, and they both run without any intervention on my part. I enjoy commercial free viewing because of these two apps. If it was sarcasm, it's a hard thing to pull off in written word.


----------



## lvthunder (Apr 4, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Was that intended as sarcasm? I've got kmttg and pyTivo installed, and they both run without any intervention on my part. I enjoy commercial free viewing because of these two apps. If it was sarcasm, it's a hard thing to pull off in written word.


No it's not intended to be sarcasm. How hard was it to get all that up and running? Would the average person be able to do it?


----------



## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

lvthunder said:


> Would the average person be able to do it?


no

it requires super-human abilities and an endless supply of candy bars


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Da Goon said:


> no
> 
> it requires super-human abilities and an endless supply of candy bars


In today's economy you can hire the human and feed him candy bars.


----------



## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

netringer said:


> In today's economy you can hire the human and feed him candy bars.


excellent point! I've been wasting my super-human abilities for far too long...


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

lvthunder said:


> No it's not intended to be sarcasm. How hard was it to get all that up and running? Would the average person be able to do it?


kmttg is pretty straight forward. Getting (to) the latest "mcbrine" version isn't very pleasant, however. I would say TiVo Desktop Plus "auto transfer" would be an easier to setup alternative to pyTivo, but TD+ (I believe) would transcode the mp4 into mpeg2, defeating the purpose. pyTivo would push it "as-is".


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think there is a big difference between 'the average geek' and 'the average person'.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I think there is a big difference between 'the average geek' and 'the average person'.


Geeks make a bigger % of the population now that enough cool gadgets are out but there is the new dividing line. Doing cool things with firefox and facebook is one thing writing the bookmarklets to do those cool things is another level altogether.

Somewhere in the middle is setting up things to move video files around and get smooth transfers and playback.
The avergae geek can set that up, the average person would need more handholding on such a task versus finding cool ways to add to firefox.

BTW - this is why the average geek thinks HTPC on win7 with cable card tuners is the up and coming thing while the average person is not even considering using a PC to 'record' shows.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Geeks make a bigger % of the population now that enough cool gadgets are out but there is the new dividing line. Doing cool things with firefox and facebook is one thing writing the bookmarklets to do those cool things is another level altogether.
> 
> Somewhere in the middle is setting up things to move video files around and get smooth transfers and playback.
> The avergae geek can set that up, the average person would need more handholding on such a task versus finding cool ways to add to firefox.
> ...


Until they start offering it off-the-shelf. Adding a tuner card to an OTC PC with Win7 is something the AVERAGE 15 year old can do in 20 minutes or less. I find it impossible to believe that you won't be seeing the things at BBuy and Walmart before very long. Tuner cards included along with monitors & printers.


----------



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

RoyK said:


> Until they start offering it off-the-shelf. Adding a tuner card to an OTC PC with Win7 is something the AVERAGE 15 year old can do in 20 minutes or less. I find it impossible to believe that you won't be seeing the things at BBuy and Walmart before very long. Tuner cards included along with monitors & printers.


I agree. Also there will a few people designing there own dvr's. All you need is a shelf case, and your set.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Until they start offering it off-the-shelf. Adding a tuner card to an OTC PC with Win7 is something the AVERAGE 15 year old can do in 20 minutes or less. I find it impossible to believe that you won't be seeing the things at BBuy and Walmart before very long. Tuner cards included along with monitors & printers.





Videodrome said:


> I agree. Also there will a few people designing there own dvr's. All you need is a shelf case, and your set.


all the above already happens. The only new thing is Win 7 and Cable Cards. While that is significant to the average geek - The hassles of SDV and no PPV/VOD remain.

The average person barely considers buying a TiVo, getting a PC to record with wont be any closer in their mind.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Until they start offering it off-the-shelf. Adding a tuner card to an OTC PC with Win7 is something the AVERAGE 15 year old can do in 20 minutes or less. I find it impossible to believe that you won't be seeing the things at BBuy and Walmart before very long. Tuner cards included along with monitors & printers.


The average 15-year old is a lot more sophisticated than the average 30-40 year old. The number of 15-year olds with hundreds of dollars to spend on a new HTPC and Ceton card is insignificant.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> all the above already happens. The only new thing is Win 7 and Cable Cards. While that is significant to the average geek - The hassles of SDV and no PPV/VOD remain.
> 
> The average person barely considers buying a TiVo, getting a PC to record with wont be any closer in their mind.


I agree. The PCs will still have to compete with the cable company offerings, and they will lose most of the time.

However, the battle between TiVo and PC solutions will no doubt intensify, for the remaining (and probably shrinking) market share.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I agree. The PCs will still have to compete with the cable company offerings, and they will lose most of the time.
> 
> However, the battle between TiVo and PC solutions will no doubt intensify, for the remaining (and probably shrinking) market share.


It is the first device that for a decent price can simply hook up to your cable and a simple call to the cable company to agree to terms to activate decryption on it is all that is needed which will win.
All others best market to the geeks niche.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> The average 15-year old is a lot more sophisticated than the average 30-40 year old. The number of 15-year olds with hundreds of dollars to spend on a new HTPC and Ceton card is insignificant.


I believe I said off the shelf, didn't I? The point is to produce a DVR today does not require electrical and software developers. It only requires the capability of packaging a standard PC in a case that looks decent in a media center and adding an off-the-shelf tuner card. Microsoft did the software, the hardware is mass produced. And it all works well. Very well indeed.


----------



## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> It is the first device that for a decent price can simply hook up to your cable and a simple call to the cable company to agree to terms to activate decryption on it is all that is needed which will win.


This device already exists and already won the market by the huge margin - it is called cable company DVR. With most cable companies you can pick up DVR at no cost and simply hook it up. Anything at retail that cost money upfront even if it will be simple to plug-in and activate is reserved for the niche market.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

RoyK said:


> I believe I said off the shelf, didn't I? The point is to produce a DVR today does not require electrical and software developers. It only requires the capability of packaging a standard PC in a case that looks decent in a media center and adding an off-the-shelf tuner card. Microsoft did the software, the hardware is mass produced. And it all works well. Very well indeed.


Just because you can make a Computer into a DVR does not make it a good solution for most people, the power to a computer is from 3 to 5 times that of the TiVo-HD, and if you want to use the computer for say sending some E-Mail when your wife is watching a TV show off the computer...well you get the idea.


----------



## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lessd said:


> Just because you can make a Computer into a DVR does not make it a good solution for most people, the power to a computer is from 3 to 5 times that of the TiVo-HD, and if you want to use the computer for say sending some E-Mail when your wife is watching a TV show off the computer...well you get the idea.


Actually, I have the facts - since I have one. The computer goes to standby when it's not being used and wakes to record. That reduces the average power consumption.

What? You send email on your TiVO? We don't send it on our media center PC either -- but we could. And surf the web. And watch Netflix without the hassels and select what to watch, and watch Internet TV on CBS and PBS and watch movies on Vudu and Hulu and.....espn.com sports and .....


----------



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lessd said:


> Just because you can make a Computer into a DVR does not make it a good solution for most people, the power to a computer is from 3 to 5 times that of the TiVo-HD, and if you want to use the computer for say sending some E-Mail when your wife is watching a TV show off the computer...well you get the idea.


Actually I play games on my PC all the time while it is recording or my roommate is watching something via the 360 extender.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

RoyK said:


> What? You send email on your TiVO? We don't send it on our media center PC either -- but we could. And surf the web. And watch Netflix without the hassels and select what to watch, and watch Internet TV on CBS and PBS and watch movies on Vudu and Hulu and.....espn.com sports and .....


 On Netflix note that for PC streaming "HD" streams are not supported, so the quality of streams are significantly inferior to what you can get to non-PC devices such as TiVo, xbox, PS3, Blu-Ray player, etc. I know this because there are some cases when Netflix/TiVo fails and I have to resort to using a PC instead and the quality totally blows in comparison...
This is actually one of the down sides I see in contemplating switch to MCE (in addition to lack of advanced wishlists and lack of affordable extenders). I know you can use xbox360 for Netflix streaming, but that requires Live Gold subscription for ~ $40/year which sucks...


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

petew said:


> If Comcast in your area moves the way Comcast Bay Area did you'll lose all but analog versions of broadcast chanels soon enough.
> 
> Valid reason. Though IMHO by using the tools such as pyTivo you could record in Digital, transcode to mp4 and push back a much smaller copy with better quality than the Tivo Basic analog recording.


I'm in the Bay Area, and I have *slightly* more than just broadcast channels in analog. Discovery is still in analog for example.

BTW, do all of those tools run *on a Mac*? (Boot Camp doesn't count.)


----------



## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

mattack said:


> I'm in the Bay Area, and I have *slightly* more than just broadcast channels in analog. Discovery is still in analog for example.
> 
> BTW, do all of those tools run *on a Mac*? (Boot Camp doesn't count.)


pyTivo and kmttg both do. Those are all you need to do what petew was suggesting(digital to pc to mp4 to tivo). I haven't kept up with the absolute latest developments, but it's all mostly (if not entirely) automated too.


----------



## Sandi Shores (Sep 11, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Was that intended as sarcasm? I've got kmttg and pyTivo installed, and they both run without any intervention on my part. I enjoy commercial free viewing because of these two apps. If it was sarcasm, it's a hard thing to pull off in written word.


You make it sound so easy, I don't find it to be so effortless.

Easier to just record analog, but then you get the grey screen bug.

It's annoying and frustrating to say the least, if I want to record in analog I should be able to without having my TiVo go into a grey coma.

I don't mind bugs, I expect them in almost everything, I even beta test some things because I am good at finding bugs, but they should be fixed promptly, not tossed to the wayside because it only affects a *few* people.

A bug is a bug is a bug, fix it.


----------



## Gavroche (May 27, 2007)

mattack said:


> I'm in the Bay Area, and I have *slightly* more than just broadcast channels in analog. Discovery is still in analog for example.
> 
> BTW, do all of those tools run *on a Mac*? (Boot Camp doesn't count.)


Uhmm yeah... Bay Area too... Discovery is basically the only one. Woo-hoo! My series 2 Single Tuner without cable box now gets about ten actual channels.


----------

