# Can it stream? (End the CCI byte crap)?



## dcbarry (May 21, 2002)

Cant find anything in the official specs so far. Seems like the horse power is there, and with all the other capabilities, it would be stupid if it could not.

If the CCI byte is still an issue with this, Rogers needs backhand to the head.

Yeah, I'm bitter. 

d.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

No it can't stream, so CCI wows still in affect -- Dave Zatz asked them at CES.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

bdraw said:


> No it can't stream, so CCI wows still in affect -- Dave Zatz asked them at CES.


I believe the hardware is capable. It remains to be seen if they'll change their method. I sure hope they do.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

TiVo's have had the capability to stream for quite a while. Getting them to stream would be a fairly easy task.

However.... You ever wonder why they haven't done so in all this time if programming it would be so easy, & current TiVo's can in fact hanlde it?

Han't anyone ever wondered that just maybe, yes just maybe that their is something else going behind the scenes that is preventing us from having true streaming enabled?

Don't think I have ever seen anyone mention that concept before.

TGC


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> TiVo's have had the capability to stream for quite a while. Getting them to stream would be a fairly easy task.
> 
> However.... You ever wonder why they haven't done so in all this time if programming it would be so easy, & current TiVo's can in fact hanlde it?
> 
> ...


could be there's something else. But it might also be they stopped making significant changes on the s3 platform before the CCI bit got really out of hand when SDV and the move to all digital started happening widely.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

TexasGrillChef said:


> TiVo's have had the capability to stream for quite a while. Getting them to stream would be a fairly easy task.
> 
> However.... You ever wonder why they haven't done so in all this time if programming it would be so easy, & current TiVo's can in fact hanlde it?
> 
> ...


Verizon FIOS DVRs stream, so there's no business reason why this can't be done. And it completely avoids the CCI issues, and the whole MRV issues.

TTG would still have issues, but that's something else entirely. And if they supported streaming to mobile devices when away from home, TTG becomes half-way obsolete (archiving being the other half).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

The apparent lack of streaming functionality is a bummer. I just hope it will be implemented later. It would solve a lot of issues.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The DirecTV DVRs also stream. Same hardware foundation as the Series 3.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Verizon FIOS DVRs stream,


As does Windows Media center, since XP MCE 2005 in fact.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

stevel said:


> The DirecTV DVRs also stream. Same hardware foundation as the Series 3.





Raj said:


> As does Windows Media center, since XP MCE 2005 in fact.


Neither of those are subject to cable-card restrictions, so the business question has no relevance.

The issue is really about the CCI byte, which is cable-card specific (I'm pretty sure), and streaming. The only example I know of is the Verizion FiOS DVRs, but their might be others.


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## HazelW (Dec 6, 2007)

AbMagFab said:


> Neither of those are subject to cable-card restrictions, so the business question has no relevance.
> 
> The issue is really about the CCI byte, which is cable-card specific (I'm pretty sure), and streaming. The only example I know of is the Verizion FiOS DVRs, but their might be others.


Moxi can stream and it uses cablecards.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Neither of those are subject to cable-card restrictions, so the business question has no relevance.
> 
> The issue is really about the CCI byte, which is cable-card specific (I'm pretty sure), and streaming. The only example I know of is the Verizion FiOS DVRs, but their might be others.


Wrong.

I use Media Center with CableCARDs. Media Center has had CableCARD support since Windows Vista, and with Windows 7 they are now allowing you to add them to almost any PC that has a HDCP compliant video card.

You can stream to extenders such as the XBOX 360. Even copy protected shows are streamable. What you can't do is play shows on another PC that weren't marked copy freely when they were recorded. But you can copy shows that were marked copy freely (0x00). I do it all the time.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Raj said:


> As does Windows Media center, *since XP MCE 2005 in fact*.





Raj said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I use Media Center with CableCARDs. *Media Center has had CableCARD support since Windows Vista*, and with Windows 7 they are now allowing you to add them to almost any PC that has a HDCP compliant video card.
> 
> You can stream to extenders such as the XBOX 360. Even copy protected shows are streamable. What you can't do is play shows on another PC that weren't marked copy freely when they were recorded. But you can copy shows that were marked copy freely (0x00). I do it all the time.


That's clearly not what you originally meant, since cable cards support was not in MCE XP 2005 (per your own statement later). You were definitely referring to the general streaming capability, which is independent of the CCI.

And, if you are indeed running MCE with CCs, then you're like the one person who has a pre-configured Windows Media Center PC with cable cards.

Anyway, your original response about Media Center says "since XP MCE 2005" which doesn't support cable cards, and it doesn't say you're using cable cards, and it's like a 99.9% safe assumption that someone with WMC/MCE isn't using cable cards.

Your clarification for the niche-niche-niche group using MCE with cable cards is appreciated.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> Then you're like the one person who has a pre-configured Windows Media Center PC with cable cards.


I'm not. HP didn't offer CableCARD when my PC was purchased. They only offered a ClearQAM tuner.



> As of today, I'm pretty sure you can't buy a cable-card "card" for a PC (and have it work without hacking, if anything), you have to buy one with the special mobo. It's coming soon, but not here yet.


And I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Microsoft freed PCs from the OEM requirement in September of last year. This meant that anyone could buy a CableCARD tuner and pop it in in their PC as long as they were running Windows 7 (Home premium and above).

Also, there was a pretty trivial hack to make your PC accept the CableCARD tuner and for Windows to activate it. The tuners were readily available on eBay. So there were plenty of people running CableCARD even though CableLabs and Microsoft limited it to only OEM PCs.



> The original post about Media Center says "since XP MCE 2005" which I'm pretty sure doesn't support cable cards, and it doesn't say they are using cable cards, and it's like a 99.9% safe assumption that someone with WMC/MCE isn't using cable cards.


You're on a roll with being wrong today. I was addressing the streaming from a hardware perspective, not a DRM perspective. I am absolutely correct in saying that media center had streaming capability since MCE 2005, which it did have.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TexasGrillChef said:


> TiVo's have had the capability to stream for quite a while. Getting them to stream would be a fairly easy task.
> 
> However.... You ever wonder why they haven't done so in all this time if programming it would be so easy, & current TiVo's can in fact hanlde it?
> 
> ...


people with streambaby have had issues trying to stream true HD to series 3. I do not think it can be stated that Series 3 can handle all streaming well like TiVo would need to make it a universal feature.

What would be good enough I think is if they opened up streaming to a Tivo premiere is allowed. So have 2 TiVo Prems then stream away. have an s2 or s3? Then they can stream anything to the TiVo prem.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> The apparent lack of streaming functionality is a bummer. I just hope it will be implemented later. It would solve a lot of issues.


or maybe this. Perhaps they wouldrather focus on launch of hardware first - then pick up projects like this when resources are freed from launch duties.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> Verizon FIOS DVRs stream, so there's no business reason why this can't be done. And it completely avoids the CCI issues, and the whole MRV issues.
> 
> TTG would still have issues, but that's something else entirely. And if they supported streaming to mobile devices when away from home, TTG becomes half-way obsolete (archiving being the other half).


You forget one important point though. Verizon FiOs IS a cable TV supplier. They can have their boxes do just about anything they want. Just like any other cable co. TiVo on the other hand just makes the boxes. TiVo has to conform to certain requirments where as a cable co can have their boxes do just about anything they want. Even other cable co's have started to enable streaming to a limited degree on their own boxes as well. Dish & DirecTV are starting to do the same as well.

Like I said...The S3/HD/HDXL have always had the capability hardware wise to do streaming. It would be fairly easy to add in a future update to our TiVo's as well. But it hasn't been so far.

I am just saying that IMHO there is something else going on behind the scenes that none of us have a clue about.

The real solution that IMHO the majority of people who are complaing about the CCI byte are to lazy to do, is simply writing their congressmen, Senators, FCC, etc... And keep writing them letters/emails every 6 months.

I was lucky enough to get an audiance with a Texas State Senator. I will suffice it to say her staff and her were even unaware of the issue of the CCI byte and how it was affecting us as consumers. However as one of her staff members pointed out, They hand only received maybe a handfull of letters on this issue in the last year. Thus as her staff puts it, probably not that big a deal and not worth doing anything about. Yet.

If we really want to do something about solving this CCI byte problem with cable companies. It will require legislation from our congress &/or FCC.

Even if we do manage to get streaming enabled... Whose to say that the Cable Co industry won't get the rules on CCI flags changed to prevent streaming? The answer to that question is NONE.... So enabling streaming to me is NOT the answer.

TGC


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> You forget one important point though. Verizon FiOs IS a cable TV supplier. They can have their boxes do just about anything they want. Just like any other cable co. TiVo on the other hand just makes the boxes. TiVo has to conform to certain requirments where as a cable co can have their boxes do just about anything they want. Even other cable co's have started to enable streaming to a limited degree on their own boxes as well. Dish & DirecTV are starting to do the same as well.


As I said, Microsoft does streaming with Windows Media Center to extenders including the XBOX 360 and has supported CableCARD since Windows Vista. IIRC, Moxi also does streaming, and of course supports Windows Media Center. I highly doubt that Cablelabs is restricting TiVo since other vendors do it.

What I think might be happening is that their partners may have sweetened their deals with them in exchange for crippling some functionality. Pure speculation of course.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> people with streambaby have had issues trying to stream true HD to series 3. I do not think it can be stated that Series 3 can handle all streaming well like TiVo would need to make it a universal feature.
> 
> What would be good enough I think is if they opened up streaming to a Tivo premiere is allowed. So have 2 TiVo Prems then stream away. have an s2 or s3? Then they can stream anything to the TiVo prem.


IMHO a few tweeks to the S3/HD/HDXL and I bet it could easily handle streaming HD content. Within reason of course. The big thing about HD content is bitrate.

Example. IF I rip a blu-ray movie and convert the VC-1 to H.264 with a bitrate of 10mbps. I can transfer it to my TiVo at realtime or faster. If I encode it at it's full speed native. Sometimes 20-30mpbs. Then no. So if we were talking streaming. It could then handle HD content of about 10mpbs but not of the 20-30mpbs variety.

But even so... My argument is saying streaming isn't because of hardware/software issues. That it is something else that is going on. Something else that is preventing it from happening. IMHO if it was simply something hardware related then it would be a closed moot point. TiVo users would just move on & wait for something better. Like the S4's.

Even so. I still say streaming isn't the answer. Soon enough the Cable co's will lock down streaming as well wtih a updated CCI Flags. The FCC might even change them as well. You never know. You might say it won't ever happen. But are you willing to put money on it? I'm not.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Raj said:


> As I said, Microsoft does streaming with Windows Media Center to extenders including the XBOX 360 and has supported CableCARD since Windows Vista. IIRC, Moxi also does streaming, and of course supports Windows Media Center. I highly doubt that Cablelabs is restricting TiVo since other vendors do it.
> 
> What I think might be happening is that their partners may have sweetened their deals with them in exchange for crippling some functionality. Pure speculation of course.


Never said what could be the reason as to why TiVo doesn't allow streaming. Never said that it was because of restrictions by Cablelabs or anyone else.

I was just saying that maybe, just maybe the reasoning behind it is something we haven't even considered yet. Maybe as you said, somewhere along the line TiVo knows something we don't, maybe somewhere along the line TiVo had their "palms greased" (If you know what I mean). We just don't know. TiVo as far as I know has never made a public statement about this issue.

TGC


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## rtmoore4 (May 12, 2005)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Even if we do manage to get streaming enabled... Whose to say that the Cable Co industry won't get the rules on CCI flags changed to prevent streaming? The answer to that question is NONE.... So enabling streaming to me is NOT the answer.
> 
> TGC


You're exactly right. The answer is to bypass the heavy-handed tactics of big cable and go directly to the content owners themselves. Pay them more than cable offers for their specific content and serve it up via Internet download instead of cable recording. Become the MSO.

Everyone complains about the BS delays, technical and procedural roadblocks the cablecos throw up in TiVo's path. Even TiVo is filing with the FCC these days. Why not do something about it that doesn't require either the courts or the government to make the big, bad bully stop? Solve the problem with innovation and technology. Give the consumer what he wants, pay the content owners more money, and tell big cable to take a long walk off a short pier.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

rtmoore4 said:


> You're exactly right. The answer is to bypass the heavy-handed tactics of big cable and go directly to the content owners themselves.


Won't happen. Period.

Besides, who owns your internet connection? That's right, "big cable" does. Even the phone companies are becoming "big cable" because that's where the money is.

You have to also remember who owns the cable companies - Time Warner (is/was owned by AOL Time Warner), Cablevision (Owns a few sports networks), Comcast (now looking to own NBC). DirecTV was partly owned by Newscorp and is now partly owned by Liberty media. It's called vertical integration, and you can be sure that they're going to protect their business interests.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Even so. I still say streaming isn't the answer. Soon enough the Cable co's will lock down streaming as well wtih a updated CCI Flags. The FCC might even change them as well. You never know. You might say it won't ever happen. But are you willing to put money on it? I'm not.
> 
> TGC


Unlikely. The restrictions have been getting looser, not tighter. DIY Media Centers are now officially blessed by CableLabs and CableLabs is now certifying network capable tuners (HDHomeRun CableCARD tuner and Ceton MOCUR). And from what I understand, SiliconDust asked them to loosen the rules and they (CableLabs) obliged.

Besides, the "new" FCC is already scowling at the cable companies "failure" to support CableCARD. Do you really think Genachowski will be happy if the cable companies screw it up anymore? Unlikely. They have to play nice.


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## Augeas (Apr 14, 2002)

I thought cable boxes streamed over the coax connection? In my experience uncompressed HD streaming is very troublesome over the IP network (very very flaky over wireless), I had all kinds of issues with Roku, Xbox, Media Center... I think that the Tivo would have to transcode to a lower bitrate to stream reliably.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Augeas said:


> I thought cable boxes streamed over the coax connection?


Cable ondemand isn't "streamed" per se. It is broadcast over QAMs just like your other cable channels are, in the clear too. Your box sends a signal to the headend which then sends the video downstream to your local node on a particular QAM and your cable box tunes to it. That's why you can sometimes see what your neighbors are watching ondemand if you have a TV with a Clear QAM tuner.

FiOS uses a different method and actually streams to their boxes over IP. It uses the coax connection but uses MoCA. That's why you need the actiontec router if you want FiOS ondemand.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

HazelW said:


> Moxi can stream and it uses cablecards.


Moxi can stream live TV as well as recorded shows.

They are not subject to the restriction of CC1 because they use DTCP/IP

_Under this specification, digital content can be shared securely between devices in a users home but not shared with third-parties outside the home network. Using an authentication scheme, DTCP-IP allows the user to designate devices in the home network as trusted destinations that can transfer data back and forth, but DTCP-IP will not allow the content to be transmitted over the Internet to be shared outside of the home network._

So yes you can get full un-encumbered streaming to the Moxi Mates.


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