# Longer Buffer



## awax (Apr 15, 2004)

Does anyone know if TiVo ever plans to have a buffer longer than 30 minutes? The HR24 I had from DTV had something like 90 minutes. Heck, even the Series 2 DVR40 I had years ago could be "adjusted" to 90 minutes with no issues.


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## gantt (Jul 22, 2008)

I ask for this whenever I see someone from TiVo. My ancient Comcast Pace DVR had a 2 hour buffer. I've never understood why TiVo doesn't make theirs longer, or at least give the user the option.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I also don't understand the need for the longer buffer. The only reason would be if you sit down and decide to watch something that is in the buffer. But typically you should be recording that content anyway so there really isn't a need. I know in my use over the last eleven years it would be a very extremely rare situation for me to do this.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> I also don't understand the need for the longer buffer. The only reason would be if you sit down and decide to watch something that is in the buffer. But typically you should be recording that content anyway so there really isn't a need. I know in my use over the last eleven years it would be a very extremely rare situation for me to do this.


Agreed. If you are going to buffer for that long, you might as well record it.

The longer buffer was better when the storage space was smaller


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

Depends on one's viewing habits. With my old DVR I would get up from the TV and go eat lunch or dinner and then come back and rewind to where I was. Or, I could pause the DVR and come back within an hour and continue watching. Just seems easier than going through the steps of recording and then finding it and getting back to where you were. I guess I'll have to adapt!



aaronwt said:


> I also don't understand the need for the longer buffer. The only reason would be if you sit down and decide to watch something that is in the buffer. But typically you should be recording that content anyway so there really isn't a need. I know in my use over the last eleven years it would be a very extremely rare situation for me to do this.


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## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

UCLABB said:


> Depends on one's viewing habits. With my old DVR I would get up from the TV and go eat lunch or dinner and then come back and rewind to where I was. Or, I could pause the DVR and come back within an hour and continue watching. Just seems easier than going through the steps of recording and then finding it and getting back to where you were. I guess I'll have to adapt!


I agree, I often pause the video and go on a walk to the store thats right near me.

I know I can hit record...but when you have a two hour buffer you could watch 6 hours of commercial free TV (if your getting 15 minutes worth of commercials each hour). With a 30 minute buffer you can only watch 1:30 minutes of commercial free TV.

When I was 13...god I feel old. I would pause on the Disney channel (they had only 10 minutes of commercials per hour) you could watch there channel all afternoon if you just let it buffer for two hours. That was with a Series 2 DVR.

I can also see why its irrelevant with the amount of storage a XL4 can have (480 hours personally) - I can't believe I still have full seasons of shows that started in september.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

UCLABB said:


> Depends on one's viewing habits. With my old DVR I would get up from the TV and go eat lunch or dinner and then come back and rewind to where I was. Or, I could pause the DVR and come back within an hour and continue watching. Just seems easier than going through the steps of recording and then finding it and getting back to where you were. I guess I'll have to adapt!


Anything I might even consider watching I hit the record button. Just hit record and pause the program. You won't lose your spot. And the TiVo can stay paused for as long as you want. Hours, days, weeks, etc.


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## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> Anything I might even consider watching I hit the record button. Just hit record and pause the program. You won't lose your spot. And the TiVo can stay paused for as long as you want. Hours, days, weeks, etc.


What if you want to watch more than just the current show on that channel? Its a hassel to hit record on the next 4 shows in the lineup if you just want to hit pause and go get your chore done.

Before I had a XL4 I used the extra tuner(s) to go to a channel I wanted to watch and would let it buffer up while I watch another program on live TV. Its because I didn't want to record the show, just watch TV without commercials.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

rhettf said:


> What if you want to watch more than just the current show on that channel? Its a hassel to hit record on the next 4 shows in the lineup if you just want to hit pause and go get your chore done.
> 
> Before I had a XL4 I used the extra tuner(s) to go to a channel I wanted to watch and would let it buffer up while I watch another program on live TV. Its because I didn't want to record the show, just watch TV without commercials.


I go to the guide and hit record. If there is ANYTHING I might be interested in, even if I'm sitting in front of the TV watching it, I ALWAYS record it. You never know if you will get interrupted, or how long you might be away. Or if you even want to continue watching it that day or ever. If it's recorded, it's there to watch later whenever you want. And if you never watch it you can delete it or let the TiVo delete it automatically.

Heck, you can even accidentally hit a channel number and you would then lose your buffer(if not recording) when it changes to the new channel.(Unless the new channel happens to be already on one of the other tuners)


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

I really need a 90 minute buffer, i dont always check the guide when my wife and i leave the house, and quite often my wife will turn on the tv and will see a movie on the lifetime movie network that may of started an hour earlier that she wants to watch,so i always have to check the guide to see if they are showing it again.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.

You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


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## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.
> 
> You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


This has happened to us many times.


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## gantt (Jul 22, 2008)

I watch mostly news, and at unpredictable times. If there's a breaking story, I want to be able to go back in time more than 30 minutes. I shouldn't have to set up a Season Pass for every cable news show around the clock in order to do this.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

I don't have a need for a longer buffer, for the most part, but I wonder if they could create a choice in the settings. Let you set your box for 30min, 60min, or 90min. It's probably not as easy as it sounds, though.

For me, I just set something to record if I'm not able to do a 'semi-live' with any given show/s. It seems like lengthening the buffer would just decrease the amount of available space, no? I could be wrong.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.
> 
> You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


That's a good point. One good thing about cable channels (I watch VERY little on network channels, outside of sitcoms and I have SPs for all the ones I like) is that there are usually additional airings.

When I have this happen I just search for another airing. But, sometimes I've not found one so it w/b kind of nice to have the choice to still pick it up in the middle.


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## gantt (Jul 22, 2008)

sharkster said:


> It seems like lengthening the buffer would just decrease the amount of available space, no? I could be wrong.


Seems like it. A Premiere XL4 is quoted at 300 hours of HD recording. A 2 hour buffer would be less than 1% of that. I think I'd live.


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## awsnyde (May 11, 2007)

gantt said:


> Seems like it. A Premiere XL4 is quoted at 300 hours of HD recording. A 2 hour buffer would be less than 1% of that. I think I'd live.


Not that the percentage would be that much different--rounded up to 3%, in fact--but an XL4 would have a 2-hour buffer on each tuner, making a total of 8 hours we couldn't use for recordings. That said, if it were a user-selectable option I think it would be a good idea.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

Good point, but having just a regular Premiere I only have the 320 hour hard drive. With HD channels I find that it's about 1% per half hour. so multiplied out times two tuners (in my case) a two hour buffer is 8% total. 

Still not that much I suppose but I think the only way I'd want this to increase would be to have a setting choice with increments. I have a LOT of SPs, especially on my living room box, and sometimes I'm maxed out already with the combination of what is in 'my shows' and what is in 'to do'.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

UCLABB said:


> Depends on one's viewing habits. With my old DVR I would get up from the TV and go eat lunch or dinner and then come back and rewind to where I was. Or, I could pause the DVR and come back within an hour and continue watching. Just seems easier than going through the steps of recording and then finding it and getting back to where you were. I guess I'll have to adapt!


Easy solution: don't watch live TV. I haven't watched a "live" program in 12 years. There is absolutely no advantage to watching "live" TV, but there are quite a few disadvantages. If you have properly set up your TiVo, and there is something interesting on, the TiVo will record it. If it isn't interesting, why watch it?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

awsnyde said:


> Not that the percentage would be that much different--rounded up to 3%, in fact--but an XL4 would have a 2-hour buffer on each tuner, making a total of 8 hours we couldn't use for recordings. That said, if it were a user-selectable option I think it would be a good idea.


I vote for an option to disable it. If the same option also allows one to increase the size of the buffer, I wouldn't complain.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.
> 
> You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


That's not a case for a buffer option. That is a case for the user to properly set up his TiVo. If it is a show in which you might be interested, then if the TiVo is properly configured, it will already be recording the show.

Note also the odds of such an event are vanishingly small. Out of perhaps 200 - 500 channels, the odds the two (four in the case of the elite) tuners being "inactive" but tuned to one of the top two most interesting programs out of the 200 or so available channels is typically less than 1%.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.
> 
> You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


I use the TiVO search and end up finding it on netflix or somewhere else. Or the TiVO is already recording the show. Since I enabled suggesstions on both my Elites, they are typically each recording four shows when I look at them. And I find the bulk of the suggestions it records are HD shows I would want to watch. Even the numerous Lifetime movies it records from suggestions.


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## dboff01 (Feb 5, 2012)

rhettf said:


> When I was 13...god I feel old. I would pause on the Disney channel ...


If the technology to pause live TV existed when you were 13, you are the opposite of old.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Note also the odds of such an event are vanishingly small. Out of perhaps 200 - 500 channels, the odds the two (four in the case of the elite) tuners being "inactive" but tuned to one of the top two most interesting programs out of the 200 or so available channels is typically less than 1%.


For me, it's zero. I plan ahead, admittedly, a bit OCD. 
Your 1% is incorrect. The tuners are not on random channels, they are on the last channel watched or recorded. And (not me) I'm sure someone turns the TV on (lifetime was an example one poster offered) with a channel with a show that grabs one's interest. This request is not at the top of my own wish list but I can see a case for it. That's all. To make my wife happy. Happy flows downstream....
By the way, this would seem a very minor SW update, the TiVo SW writers need to flip a few bytes and let them flow.


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## sneagle (Jun 12, 2002)

I agree that a longer buffer would be useful. User adjustable (within reason) is probably best. 

And I watch live TV all the time. I watch the news in the AM but do not record. I channel flip in bed at night for 15-30 min before I go to bed. 

Bottom line...different users watch TV differently. TiVo allows that!


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## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

rhettf said:


> When I was 13...god I feel old. I would pause on the Disney channel ...QUOTE]
> 
> When I was 13 there was no Disney channel and there was no pausing TV. You couldn't even record anything. now THAT's old!


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

My graduation gift from my parents was a Sony Betamax 

I remember searching for blank videotapes and comparing the prices and trying to find out what was the best brand. Then VHS came along and I had a hard time budging over to that format. I never dreamed one day I would have a house full of Tivo's and all those tapes would be sitting in a landfill somewhere 

I've always wished there was an option for a longer buffer on Tivo. With the size of hard drives now it wouldnt make such a big difference. Sometimes when I turn the TV on theres something on the news that I would like to be able to go back farther but cant.

I have noticed however, if the buffer on a Premiere is at around 40 - 45 minutes you can hit record and it will save all the way back to when the show began. I just noticed that recently. There must be a buffer to the buffer.


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## gantt (Jul 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> That's not a case for a buffer option. That is a case for the user to properly set up his TiVo. If it is a show in which you might be interested, then if the TiVo is properly configured, it will already be recording the show.
> 
> Note also the odds of such an event are vanishingly small. Out of perhaps 200 - 500 channels, the odds the two (four in the case of the elite) tuners being "inactive" but tuned to one of the top two most interesting programs out of the 200 or so available channels is typically less than 1%.


Just because a program isn't one of the top two or four "most interesting" (per whose definition?) doesn't mean I don't have an interest in viewing it from an earlier point in time. Also, since they fixed the commercial downloading that was present in my S2, the tuners no longer switch to some bizarre channel in the middle of the night - they're typically on channels that I already watch, not tuned randomly across 200-500 channels.

I like a lot of what TiVo does, but you seem to be saying that TiVo's algorithm is so good it can read my mind. Better yet, it can anticipate the contents of a program like a news report where a story may have little or nothing to do with the program's title or generic content description. I'd say you're drinking the Kool-Aid, but I don't think even TiVo is serving that.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

The question originally posted was not "let me tell you why I need a longer buffer, so you can tell my why I don't".

It was...


awax said:


> *Does anyone know if TiVo ever plans to have a buffer longer than 30 minutes? *The HR24 I had from DTV had something like 90 minutes. Heck, even the Series 2 DVR40 I had years ago could be "adjusted" to 90 minutes with no issues.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

MeInDallas said:


> I've always wished there was an option for a longer buffer on Tivo. With the size of hard drives now it wouldnt make such a big difference. Sometimes when I turn the TV on theres something on the news that I would like to be able to go back farther but cant.


I haven't had that many occasions where I wished I had a longer buffer.
I don't think TiVo will ever change it because they want to be able to advertise a set number in the hours of recording capacity.


MeInDallas said:


> I have noticed however, if the buffer on a Premiere is at around 40 - 45 minutes you can hit record and it will save all the way back to when the show began. I just noticed that recently. There must be a buffer to the buffer.


From what I have read, this is because the Tivo records live TV in blocks of a certain memory size that is always longer than 30 minutes. When you hit record, the Tivo saves everything that was in that memory block. 
The amount of extra programming saved depends on the source.
For example, you might only catch an extra 10 minutes with HD, while an SD channel will have the entire recording.


astrohip said:


> The question originally posted was not "let me tell you why I need a longer buffer, so you can tell my why I don't".
> 
> It was...


You must be new here. Welcome to the Tivo Community Forum!


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## awax (Apr 15, 2004)

I agree it should be a configurable setting. At least give me an hour TiVo!


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## DonaldBurns65144 (Jan 11, 2011)

At least one hour. 2 hours better. User select would be okay too.


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## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

How about blank recordable cds were $7 each and you almost always had to do at least 2 burns because of buffer underruns. And my first computer was a commadore 64. Thats old. (born in '49). I would love the option of a longer buffer like on Media Center.



MeInDallas said:


> My graduation gift from my parents was a Sony Betamax
> 
> I remember searching for blank videotapes and comparing the prices and trying to find out what was the best brand. Then VHS came along and I had a hard time budging over to that format. I never dreamed one day I would have a house full of Tivo's and all those tapes would be sitting in a landfill somewhere
> 
> ...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So does anyone use suggestions? With suggestions enabled on the Elites, many times it will put all tuners on the same channel when it's not recording a suggestion for some reason. So for me, the odds of it even being on a channel I want, is extremely slim. After all these years I've only recently started using suggestions. Both boxes had over 100 hours of HD suggestions pretty quickly after I enabled them. Anyway since the box isn't usually on a channel I want, it makes it even less likely that there would be a situation where I would want to take advantage of a longer buffer. It's always been 30 minutes on the TiVos I've used and it's not been an issue. 
Also if they were going to change the buffer length you would think they would have done it by now. But you never know. I doubt its a simple task to make it longer. It would probably have a huge effect on the code to change it and would involve alot of effort to change it.


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## ShayL (Jul 18, 2007)

Ed_Hunt said:


> How about blank recordable cds were $7 each and you almost always had to do at least 2 burns because of buffer underruns. And my first computer was a commadore 64. Thats old. (born in '49). I would love the option of a longer buffer like on Media Center.


The burn errors started the coaster joke. The burners were 1X or 2X so you would spend a lot of time burner before you got the error. My first computer was a Vic 20 which is the predecessor to the Commodore 64. I will never miss the tape drive storage method.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> So does anyone use suggestions?


One amazing thing would be to be able to tell the TiVo who the shows are for. When I enabled suggestions, the TiVo latched onto the fact that my kid (maybe 6 at the time) had a few series recordings, so most suggestions were geared toward her. If shows could be tagged "mom" "dad" "kid1" etc, suggestions might follow into folders for that viewer. Too complex?
The folders would also make viewing easier, I can go right to my folder instead of wading through the shows for the others. With a 4 tuner on the way, that list will get long fast.


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## todd_j_derr (Jun 6, 2000)

+1 astrohip. I'd love a longer buffer, and I'm certainly not going to be persuaded otherwise by claims I'm using my Tivo incorrectly. The last two non-Tivo DVRs I've used have had longer buffers, not to mention my old hacked S1. 90-120 minutes would be great, although if it were up to me I'd just let the buffer take up all the free space on the disk.


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## DonaldBurns65144 (Jan 11, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> So does anyone use suggestions? With suggestions enabled on the Elites, many times it will put all tuners on the same channel when it's not recording a suggestion for some reason. So for me, the odds of it even being on a channel I want, is extremely slim. After all these years I've only recently started using suggestions. Both boxes had over 100 hours of HD suggestions pretty quickly after I enabled them. Anyway since the box isn't usually on a channel I want, it makes it even less likely that there would be a situation where I would want to take advantage of a longer buffer. It's always been 30 minutes on the TiVos I've used and it's not been an issue.
> Also if they were going to change the buffer length you would think they would have done it by now. But you never know. I doubt its a simple task to make it longer. It would probably have a huge effect on the code to change it and would involve alot of effort to change it.


Aaron, Hard drives used to be a lot smaller on earlier Tivo models and larger buffers would have eaten a large percentage of their space. Yes, we use suggestions. But I also use thumbs up and down and so we get very few suggestions. I can't tell you how many times that something unexpected (honey-do's, contractor issues, next door neighbor needing help and etc) had me jump up from a live show and by the time I got back the end of what I was watching was gone because the buffer was 5 or 10 minutes too little. But I can tell you that 99% of time is was for something that wasn't repeated at some later time.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DonaldBurns65144 said:


> Aaron, Hard drives used to be a lot smaller on earlier Tivo models and larger buffers would have eaten a large percentage of their space. Yes, we use suggestions. But I also use thumbs up and down and so we get very few suggestions. I can't tell you how many times that something unexpected (honey-do's, contractor issues, next door neighbor needing help and etc) had me jump up from a live show and by the time I got back the end of what I was watching was gone because the buffer was 5 or 10 minutes too little. But I can tell you that 99% of time is was for something that wasn't repeated at some later time.


That is why in 2002 I started hitting the record key any time I watched something. Prior to that I did the same thing as you. Once I started hitting the record key I never had to worry about missing something.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

gantt said:


> Just because a program isn't one of the top two or four "most interesting" (per whose definition?)


Per your definition. You are the one watching the TiVo.



gantt said:


> doesn't mean I don't have an interest in viewing it from an earlier point in time.


You are missing the point, entirely. First of all, the number four only relates to the Elite. Let's take the number two, instead, since most people do not have an Elite. Of all the channels you receive, at the moment you sit down there will be two that are broadcasting the two most interesting programs of all. They may not in fact be of much interest, but they would be judged by you to be the best. Now, if those two are in fact less interesting than something you have already recorded, then I would wonder why you bother watching either one, but we'll set that aside. The point is, the odds of either of those programs being on a live channel is very small.



gantt said:


> they're typically on channels that I already watch, not tuned randomly across 200-500 channels.


That begs several questions.

1. Why do you watch a "channel". The TiVo makes channel assignments irrelevant. I haven't watched a "channel" in over 12 years. If an interesting program airs, the TiVo records it, continuously compiling several times more interesting programs than I could possibly ever watch. The odds of any active program even being in the top 100 are just about zilch, unless of course the TiVo is recording it.

2. If that program is anything interesting, why isn't the TiVo already recording it?



gantt said:


> I like a lot of what TiVo does, but you seem to be saying that TiVo's algorithm is so good it can read my mind.


Well, it can, of course, or at least it can and does read your recording habits. Add to that your input via the thumbs-up and thumbs-down buttons, and judicious use of wishlists, and the odds of missing an interesting program are pretty small, tuner conflicts aside. (Tuner conflicts don't count, however, because by definition a buffer cannot be active if a tuner conflict is in play.) Certainly the odds of what is on but not being recorded being better than the average of what has been recorded is vanishingly small.



gantt said:


> Better yet, it can anticipate the contents of a program like a news report where a story may have little or nothing to do with the program's title or generic content description.


That is the exception, but OTOH, recording the local and national news every day, or even three times a day is trivial.



gantt said:


> I'd say you're drinking the Kool-Aid, but I don't think even TiVo is serving that.


Nonesense. I like Alfred Hitchcock, so every time one of his films airs, no matter what the channel, it is recorded. Ditto Clint Eastwood, both as director and featuring him as an actor. Anything with Sandra Bullock, Peter O'Toole, Humphrey Bogart, etc. is similarly recorded. Anything whose similarities place it in close proximity to the things I have given a thumbs-up gets recorded. I record the local weather twice a day, and a local news feed once a day. All in all, typically more than 20 hours of programming gets recorded every day, and the odds of any program that happens to be on an inactive tuner being more interesting than even one of these is exceedingly low. That doesn't even take into account SDV channels. Until yesterday, I was on an SDV system, and almost all the programs I recorded were on SDV channels. Thus, once the recording was over, the SDV system would release the stream, so that unless one or both were actively recording, both buffers would almost always be busy.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rhettf said:


> What if you want to watch more than just the current show on that channel? Its a hassel to hit record on the next 4 shows in the lineup if you just want to hit pause and go get your chore done.
> 
> Before I had a XL4 I used the extra tuner(s) to go to a channel I wanted to watch and would let it buffer up while I watch another program on live TV. Its because I didn't want to record the show, just watch TV without commercials.


The question is, "Why ever bring up live TV at all?" It offers no advantages.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DonaldBurns65144 said:


> At least one hour. 2 hours better. User select would be okay too.


Anything more than zero is too much, but anythig more than the current 30 minutes that is not user selectable is unacceptable. Of course, the TiVos I own all have moderately large drives, but one I just got free from the CATV company only has about 48 hours recording capability, which is nowhere nearly enough. Take 2 or 4 hours off that, and it would be even more intolerable. I would wind up missing almost all the programs I recorded, let alone anything that might just happen to be in one of the buffers.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Also if they were going to change the buffer length you would think they would have done it by now. But you never know. I doubt its a simple task to make it longer. It would probably have a huge effect on the code to change it and would involve a lot of effort to change it.


No, it's pretty trivial. Those of us with modified TiVos have been able to easily do it forever, now, if we care to.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Anything more than zero is too much, but anything more than the current 30 minutes that is not user selectable is unacceptable.


Unacceptable to you.

Just for once, consider the use of either "IMHO" or "YMMV".

Or not. YMMV.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> For me, it's zero. I plan ahead, admittedly, a bit OCD.


I don't. I let the TiVo handle all that. I just sit down, hit the button to enter the NPL, choose a video, and press <play>



JoeTaxpayer said:


> Your 1% is incorrect. The tuners are not on random channels, they are on the last channel watched or recorded.


That is still a random channel. It may be unlikely that it is the Serbo-Croation Knittting Analysis channel, but it is still not deterministic. There is also a moderate likelihood the TiVo will have found and recorded something interesting on a channel that only occasionally holds anything of interest. Looking at the list of channel sources on my server, there are 91 different channels represented, with many of them only having aired 1 - 10 of the nearly 2000 videos there. Many of the channels which air programs I watch on a more or less regular basis are not represented there, at all.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> And (not me) I'm sure someone turns the TV on (lifetime was an example one poster offered) with a channel with a show that grabs one's interest.


The point is, if it is interesting, then if the Tivo is properly set up, the odds are exceedingly high it will be recording already. Conversely, if it is not recording, then the odds are extremely high it will be of little interest, and certainly of less interest than all the things that have been recorded. If neither of the two are true on any but the very rarest of instances, then the TiVo has not been set up properly.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> This request is not at the top of my own wish list but I can see a case for it. That's all. To make my wife happy. Happy flows downstream....
> By the way, this would seem a very minor SW update, the TiVo SW writers need to flip a few bytes and let them flow.


It is, but then those of us who have their TiVo's properly configured would scream, "Bloody murder!"


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Unacceptable to you.
> 
> Just for once, consider the use of either "IMHO" or "YMMV".
> 
> Or not. YMMV.


It is unacceptable, period. Forcing a really bad idea on everyone just because some fraction of the populace thinks it would be a good idea is unacceptable in an absolute sense. This is triply true when it negatively impacts experienced or talented users in favor of rookies or duffers. Allowing users to set higher values would be OK in an absolute sense albeit silly IMO. Forcing such folly on everyone is unacceptable in every sense.

BTW, I do use the qualifiers you mention above whenever my statements are not based upon either empirical data or strong mathematical analysis. My sister once insisted that it was only my opinion that a mobius strip is an object with only one surface. Despite popular notions, many things are not a matter of opinion.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

todd_j_derr said:


> +1 astrohip. I'd love a longer buffer, and I'm certainly not going to be persuaded otherwise by claims I'm using my Tivo incorrectly.


If you are "using" your TiVo at all, then you are using it sub-optimally. An optimally configured TiVo *WILL* know what you like and *WILL* record it, without your ever turning it on, and rarely ever touching it except to watch one or more programs.



todd_j_derr said:


> The last two non-Tivo DVRs I've used have had longer buffers, not to mention my old hacked S1. 90-120 minutes would be great, although if it were up to me I'd just let the buffer take up all the free space on the disk.


An optimally configured TiVo will almost never have any free space on the disk. I have three TiVos, with a total of more than 5T of storage (plus 18T of network storage, but that is another matter), and all 3 are 100% full. I just got a 4th yesterday, so it is almost empty, but I surely expect its rather small hard drive to be full in a matter of a few days.

I certainly would not be particularly upset if TiVo decided to remove the option to watch "live" TV entirely, although it would not really be a good idea.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> It is unacceptable, period. Forcing a really bad idea on everyone just because some fraction of the populace thinks it would be a good idea is unacceptable in an absolute sense. This is triply true when it negatively impacts experienced or talented users in favor of rookies or duffers. Allowing users to set higher values would be OK in an absolute sense albeit silly IMO. Forcing such folly on everyone is unacceptable in every sense.


Mobius strips aside, I'm able to understand how a feature I have no use for myself is actually desirable to others. IMHO, by adding it as a buried menu item, it can be updated by the user. I've IM'ed everyone and heard back already. Every last one of us agrees not to tell you it's been made available. You'd probably take offense.

The walk in and turn the TV on is one use case, but the step away to answer the phone, or walk the dog is one I'd see as valuable.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Just for once, consider the use of either "IMHO" or "YMMV".


That sparked my curiosity, so I did a handful of searches. Excluding the off-topic areas, I found three pages of posts where I used the term "IMO", twenty-seven posts where I used the phrase "YMMV", eighteen posts where I used the term "IMHO", and four posts where I used the term "IMNSHO".

I think more than 100 posts where I used one of those terms more than amply qualifies as "Just for once."


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## dboff01 (Feb 5, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> This is triply true when it negatively impacts experienced or talented users in favor of rookies or duffers.


This line literally made me laugh out loud.

The words "talented users" were used in regards to operating a TV appliance.

Dear God sir, get over yourself.

P.S. I'm working on developing the symbiotic relationship with my toaster that Irhorer has apparently achieved with his Tivos. Wish me luck.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Mobius strips aside, I'm able to understand how a feature I have no use for myself is actually desirable to others.


It has nothing to do with desirability. It has everything to do with being useful in an optimal setting.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> IMHO, by adding it as a buried menu item, it can be updated by the user.


There is no question of that. The question is, "Why bother". If the option to view live TV were eliminated altogether, then users would be forced to configure their TiVos in an optimal fashion. Catering to habits that allow users to obtain a poor experience from their device is akin to engineering co-dependency.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> I'm IM'ed everyone and heard back already. Every last one of us agrees not to tell you it's been made available. You'd probably take offense.


It's been available for the better part of a decade. It just offers nothing that makes the TiVo easier to use or more powerful.



JoeTaxpayer said:


> The walk in and turn the TV on is one use case, but the step away to answer the phone, or walk the dog is one I'd see as valuable.


That still requires that one be watching "live TV". Very frequently, when I am watching TV, both tuners are already recording. The buffer is then completely irrelevant. Ditto when the TiVo has been inactive on an SDV channel. The rest of the time, going to a live feed is almost always nothing but a major waste of time, so why would I? If nothing is recording, then the odds of there being anything more interesting on than even a small fraction of the things that are recorded is so small it definitely is not worth my time. How many times must I point out that in the vast majority of cases, if there is anything on live TV that would be interesting, it would be recording? Browsing through every single channel (which takes more than an hour) whenever something is not already recording virtually never finds even one interesting program.


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## supersportsfan (Sep 15, 2005)

Oh boy...thats the one thing I have always loved about these forums...after all these years of being here, it has never changed. Someone comes in and gives a suggestion of something they personally would like to see. It isn't long before the TiVo "elitists" roll on through town to tell the individual why they are using the device incorrectly...  Many of those individuals are still crying over the one inch by two inch real-estate space that was lost when the premiere was released with a free space indicator...Oh the humanity!

I have never been a suggestion fan. I don't have a whole lot of time to watch TV, so I can barely keep up with my season pass recordings. I never found that I enjoyed many of the suggestions anyway...but thats just my OPINION...a word that some obviously are not familiar with the meaning of.  

Anyway, I myself would love to see the ABILITY to increase the buffer size. My best example is sports. Occasionally I will walk up to my TV, which is tuned to ESPN after recording PTI every afternoon, and there is a sporting event on (which I might sit down and become interested in.) The commentators might make reference to something that happened say 45 minutes prior. It would be nice to have an hour(+) buffer that would allow me to rewind and see the event that they are talking about. But I guess I am doing it wrong, considering that I wasn't already recording the national spelling bee, which I never dreamed I would watch 

And get rid of live TV? Get outta here! You are probably 1% of TiVo's subscriber base and not even their target "audience" anymore...


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## dboff01 (Feb 5, 2012)

Agreed ... 30 minute buffer is lame, more would be better, as viewing habits for myself are a mix of live and recorded.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dboff01 said:


> This line literally made me laugh out loud.


That says a lot.



dboff01 said:


> The words "talented users" were used in regards to operating a TV appliance.


The statement applies to much more than the TiVo, but it certainly does apply to the TiVo. The sad (not funny) statement above strongly suggests a rather large lack of understanding of what a TiVo is, or what it can do. A complete understanding would take a far greater familiarity with the platforms than I posses, and far more than a mere ten years of study. I come across new capabilities and undiscovered features of the TiVo almost every week.

The TiVo is a Linux based PC which is far, far more powerful not only than the coputers on board the Saturn V rockets which took men to the Moon and back, it is far more powerful than the computers on the ground that filled rooms whose total size was that of a gymnasium. It is far faster, far more flexible, and has vastly more storage space - millions of times more, in fact. It sports many of the very most creative utilities developed over the last 50 years, and devices that had not even a tiny fraction of its capabilities cost many tens of thousands of dollars in the 1960s. It has the ability to scan a database of several thousand programs, comparing them using clever heuristic routines to the programs one has watched and rated along with direct input from the user himself concerning the genre, key words and statements, actors, and directors.

'Fascinated with volcanoes? Create wishlists with keywords for geology, tectonic, lava, magma, pyroclastic, and of course, volcano. 'Like the Fred & Ginger musicals? Create a wishlist for Fred Astaire + Ginger Rogers. 'See a Christmas special you like? Give it two or three thumbs-up. Get creative with the boolean expressions in some otherwise broadly defined wishlists. Bowse the list of upcoming Suggestions, and give thumbs-down on any you don't like. It takes a few weeks to tune really finely, but once done, it requires almost no intervention of any sort from then on.

That said, even the manual processes can be enhanced by a better understanding of how the TiVo works. For example, the "Title" search isn't really a title search, at all. It is an index search, and I almost never use the title search to look for a title. Instead, once every couple of weeks, one may go to Search by Title => HD => Movies => 0 to see a complete list, starting at the top, of all the HD movies broadcast over the next 12 days or so. (It's not the way I do it actually. I use TiVoWebPlus, but then you know how much TWP is only a toaster, right?)



dboff01 said:


> Dear God sir, get over yourself.


It is hardly myself over which I need to come. I can't take any credit for the TiVo, other than those modifications I have created myself and applied to my TiVos. That said, I don't think it is at all unreasonable that an individual who has bothered to learn the intricacies of a powerful and flexible computer system consider himself and other users of a similar competency at least moderately talented and experienced users. Certainly I would credit the judgments of Jaime P, William McBrine, Omikron, Unitron, bkdtv, and the other veteran TiVo users more than someone who has owned a TiVo only a few months, and perhaps has never even had the cover off.

OTOH, I don't recall seeing you explain at length to people how to build a video server for the TiVo, how to modify it to obtain better performance and access to a wider range of applications for the TiVo, or writing and publicly offering scripts and tutorials for the platform. Indeed, I only see 11 posts from you, total. Now, there is nothing wrong with being a rookie (well, nothing one can help, anyway), but with a join date of February of this year, I have to wonder how long you have owned a TiVo or how many of its myriad features you have investigated, at all?



dboff01 said:


> P.S. I'm working on developing the symbiotic relationship with my toaster that Irhorer has apparently achieved with his Tivos. Wish me luck.


I am going to refrain from going into delighted detail how dangerous an intimate relationship with a toaster would be for you, and only mention fleetingly that my handle is not Irhorer. I submit if you were at all familiar with the underlying technology of the TiVo, however, then you would be very unlikely to make such a mistake.

It is also one thing to be enamored of artifacts that appeal only to a rookie when one is ones' self a rookie, but it is quite another to dismiss with derision the ruminances, right or wrong, of someone who is experienced. Please do us all a favor and state your opinions - backed by whatever level of expertise you may have, but leave the nasty sarcasm at home.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

supersportsfan said:


> It isn't long before the TiVo "elitists" roll on through town to tell the individual why they are using the device incorrectly...


For some unfathomable reason, some people are offended by the notion that there is a set of methods and procedures that produce a peak of efficiency, and that there is somehow some sort of value in wasting time because it is tied to a bad habit. "It is the way I like / know / am used to doing it" is the worst possible reason for maintaining or implementing a system feature, second only to "it's new and the old way hasn't changed in a long time".



supersportsfan said:


> Many of those individuals are still crying over the one inch by two inch real-estate space that was lost when the premiere was released with a free space indicator...Oh the humanity!


It is not the amount of screen space used by the indicator (although any unnecessary use of screen real-estate is not acceptable). It is the fact its existence encourages users to waste their time, and time is a precious commodity. Looked at one way, it is a form of theft, or at least, as I said, co-dependence. All of my TiVos have always had the ability to measure free space. I never, ever implement or use those capabilities, but guess what? My TiVos do a far, far better job of achieving the results which those who cried for the space meter get now they have it, and it doesn't require hours - or even milliseconds - of my own time to achieve them. Why ask for something that will allow the user to spend countless hours of tedious time to accomplish an inferior job of what the TiVo does far better without any input from the user?



supersportsfan said:


> I have never been a suggestion fan. I don't have a whole lot of time to watch TV, so I can barely keep up with my season pass recordings.


I have rather few season passes, but that's not really the point.



supersportsfan said:


> I never found that I enjoyed many of the suggestions anyway...but thats just my OPINION...a word that some obviously are not familiar with the meaning of.


And how many times did you apply a thumbs-down to any of those suggestions you did not like? Did you even give a single one a thumbs-down? How often did you give a program you were watching a thumbs-up, or perhaps more rarely a thumbs-down? It is a matter of fact - not opinion, but *FACT* - that the percentage of less desirable suggestions will diminish rapidly as one applies thumbs-down to undesirable content. It will never tend to diminish much, if at all, if one never applies the thumbs-down.



supersportsfan said:


> Anyway, I myself would love to see the ABILITY to increase the buffer size. My best example is sports.


I never watch any sports, and indeed I should not be burdened with the cost of buying ESPN so that you can watch sports, but that is also another matter.



supersportsfan said:


> But I guess I am doing it wrong, considering that I wasn't already recording the national spelling bee, which I never dreamed I would watch


Once again, you completely miss the point. If *YOU* are recording anything, then you are not only wasting your time, you are getting a poor result from it.

Nothing is perfect, certainly not the TiVo, but the odds the TiVo would recognize the spelling bee was something you might like to watch are many times greater than the odds of your just happening to come across it, or even being able to select it. No matter what one does, with several thousand programs airing each and every week, one is inevitably going to miss a significant number of programs they might like to watch, even if they get recorded, but surely if they do not. Configuring the TiVo properly, allowing it to do its job, and keeping one's bloody hands off the remote will by a very wide margin maximize the number of interesting programs one may view in the limited time one has to view them. It is a bit like sorting a mountain of coins of various denominations and nationalities. To be sure, a human being can do it, and if one is obsessed about the outcome one can take on the job ones' self, but a machine can do the job much, much faster and far, far more accurately.

Is it possible you might miss that spelling bee using properly automated methods? Absolutely. The point is, however, while you might (or perhaps not) miss that spelling bee, depending upon the buffer to catch anything will inevitably miss many hundreds or perhaps thousands of programs over a period of many years that employing automated methods will not miss, and the time not wasted on manual processes will allow one to watch many, many more. On the one side we have one program that did not get missed. On the other we have hundreds. Exactly how is the former better? Because it wears out more batteries?



supersportsfan said:


> And get rid of live TV? Get outta here! You are probably 1% of TiVo's subscriber base and not even their target "audience" anymore...


Once again, I am not suggesting it should happen, but it would improve both the quality (by your own judgement, not mine) and number of the programs you watch while diminishing the amount of time you waste fiddling with the remote, waste being defined as "not watching an interesting program".

Answer me this, however. Changing the buffer size requires a trivial change to the source code and a modification of literally only a handful of bytes in the binary. So why has TiVo left the buffer at 30 minutes? There are actually a couple of reasons, but one of them is the TiVo engineers realize, as do I, that it is a waste of drive space for no significant gain in system performance.


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## lonewoolf47 (Nov 16, 2001)

supersportsfan said:


> Oh boy...thats the one thing I have always loved about these forums...after all these years of being here, it has never changed. Someone comes in and gives a suggestion of something they personally would like to see. It isn't long before the TiVo "elitists" roll on through town to tell the individual why they are using the device incorrectly...  Many of those individuals are still crying over the one inch by two inch real-estate space that was lost when the premiere was released with a free space indicator...Oh the humanity!
> 
> I have never been a suggestion fan. I don't have a whole lot of time to watch TV, so I can barely keep up with my season pass recordings. I never found that I enjoyed many of the suggestions anyway...but thats just my OPINION...a word that some obviously are not familiar with the meaning of.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. I can't count the times that i've turned the tv on and there was a movie or just a tv program that I didn't know would be on. There are just too many channels to keep track of. This day and age a 30 minute buffer is just not enough. I had Directv DVR's and I loved their 90 minute buffers.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

supersportsfan said:


> I have never been a suggestion fan. I don't have a whole lot of time to watch TV, so I can barely keep up with my season pass recordings. I never found that I enjoyed many of the suggestions anyway...but that's just my OPINION...a word that some obviously are not familiar with the meaning of.
> 
> Anyway, I myself would love to see the ABILITY to increase the buffer size. My best example is sports.


@supersportsfan People have their own situations. To me, it sounds more convoluted to tell you you should be recording your sport event, or that TiVo should know to record it, than it does to just know that the buffer is running. I love my TiVos, but I have no goal to use their features to the nth degree. Season passes are great, but like you, I killed the suggestions, never found one that I wanted to watch. The wish list is fine, but one can live a full and happy life not have one wish programmed.

@lrhorer - I've tinkered with my TiVos. Swapped out drives, imaged new ones, etc. Encoded Video off the TiVo to view on an iPad, and encoded video to send to TiVo from ripped DVDs or home movies. That doesn't make my feature wants/don't cares any better or worse than the new TiVo users. I hope TiVo adds this option, and then I'll explain to my wife why it should exist, that its very nature offends some people.

By the way, I saw your last response to supersportsfan. I tried the thumbs down to help the suggestions get better. I even thumbs downed every kid show that had a season pass, hoping that would stop suggestions from recording more kid shows. When that didn't work, I stopped.

It seems that there are three groups here. Those who want the option, those who might never use it, but understand its value, and you. Hmm. You're an engineer, why does a hundred bytes on a TB+ drive bother you?


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> You're an engineer, why does a hundred bytes on a TB+ drive bother you?


HD requires several gigabytes per hour of video, but it's still a drop in the bucket with TB drives. And I can't imagine how anybody could seriously object to making buffer space a user choice, which should be easy enough for TiVo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> No, it's pretty trivial. Those of us with modified TiVos have been able to easily do it forever, now, if we care to.


If it's a trivial matter then there must be some reason why they have never offered a user adjustable buffer.

Any idea why? I have no idea.


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## supersportsfan (Sep 15, 2005)

I feel like I am reliving fahrenheit 451 all over again...

Thinking is not allowed! The machine must chose what to watch for you!



> I never watch any sports, and indeed I should not be burdened with the cost of buying ESPN so that you can watch sports, but that is also another matter.


That statement alone sums it up for me...

The bottom line is, one of the most amazing things about human life is, we all are different...have our own thoughts and opinions...and do things our own way. And THAT is the beauty of devices having settings and options so that we may use them how we each see fit. *To each his own.*

Alas, I will continue to use my TiVo the way that I have for nearly 10 years and will continue enjoying it, and continue to believe that it is the best investment that I have ever made...even if I am using it at such a low efficiency level...so don't lose too much sleep, because I never intend to use it as "hardcorely" as you. My loss I guess?...


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## DonaldBurns65144 (Jan 11, 2011)

supersportsfan said:


> I feel like I am reliving fahrenheit 451 all over again...
> 
> Thinking is not allowed! The machine must chose what to watch for you!
> 
> ...




Or maybe it would okay if we had a slightly larger buffer. Oh no, I just came out of the closet and told the world that I'm a newbie or less than experienced master of Tivo, just a person that has had a Tivo for about 10 years or so and never let it rule my viewing. I wonder how "experienced users" ever add to their viewing interests if they never watch live TV? Most of the programs we like end up going the way of the dodo after a few years and we seek new shows to watch. Suggestions seem to try want me to watch some crud about vampires or cooking shows about the best way to eat a snake. Plus I'm not prepared or willing to allow a box to take over my life to the point that I can't walk away for more than 30 minutes. There's many times that I've turn on the TV only to catch the end of something that started 34 minutes earlier and the missing 4 minutes is critical to the whole plot. Would have nice to see those missing few minutes. If I was more experienced (read spent a good part of my whole life programming my Tivo) then I guess I won't have to worry I'd be watching Big Brother's program list of suggestions (eat more snake) and could be safe within a cocoon of Tivo fed to me programs. Or in my case more of my wife's Hallmark or Lifetime movies. EEK!!!


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## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> It is unacceptable, period. Forcing a really bad idea on everyone just because some fraction of the populace thinks it would be a good idea is unacceptable in an absolute sense. This is triply true when it negatively impacts experienced or talented users in favor of rookies or duffers. Allowing users to set higher values would be OK in an absolute sense albeit silly IMO. Forcing such folly on everyone is unacceptable in every sense.
> 
> BTW, I do use the qualifiers you mention above whenever my statements are not based upon either empirical data or strong mathematical analysis. My sister once insisted that it was only my opinion that a mobius strip is an object with only one surface. Despite popular notions, many things are not a matter of opinion.


This is totally 100% a matter of opinion. As long as it is an option.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Despite popular notions, many things are not a matter of opinion.


You are correct, many things are not a matter of opinion. But in this case, it is.

For example, on my DirecTV DVR (I have both Comcast cable/TiVos and DirecTV), the buffer is 1.5 hours. If there was some empirical evidence that a buffer that long caused harm to person or property, or led to a shorter DVR life, or caused a ripple in the space-time continuum, they would NOT have allowed it. But they did. And TiVo choose 30 minutes, for their own reasons (which probably made sense 10 years ago).

So one company chooses .5 and the other chooses 1.5. Why? They had differing opinions on this particular option, and they each chose a different path. Opinions with no right or wrong, just a choice.

Aside: My guess is the 30 minute buffers are coded so deep into the TiVo software that it's not worth the time or expense to change it. This is not a mission-critical problem, so they leave it alone. .02


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

My guess is that initially, 30 minutes was used to balance advertised recording space with the ability to pause live TV to use the "facilities". I imagine back in the day (and this behavior still remains) that users were primarily thinking VCR and not DVR.

Today, we have lots of people apparently moving over from other DVR products to Tivo. Those other products had other features, many of which were designed to keep users happy while they often missed things they should have recorded (my comcast trial unit missed most everything!). It is therefore a bigger leap of faith in TiVo for those moving from a known DVR to Tivo than those jumping straight to a TiVo from just a cablebox.

With HD, TiVo is still balancing advertised capacity with the buffer. Ignoring the more nitch units, XL/Elite/Upgraded drives, this balance remains with the base unit.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm actually very surprised TiVo has kept the 30 minute buffer. 30 minutes might have been a lot back when a TiVo could only record 14 hours worth of video, but today it's really too small. 

Personally I think it should be 60 minutes. Granted with 2 or 4 tuners, the buffer is technically 60 or 120 minutes so increasing the buffer size to 60 minutes would require 2 or 4 hours of buffer space, but if someone doesn't have an extra hour or two worth of free space on their TiVo, then it might be time to buy another one.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

morac said:


> Personally I think it should be 60 minutes. Granted with 2 or 4 tuners, the buffer is technically 60 or 120 minutes so increasing the buffer size to 60 minutes would require 2 or 4 hours of buffer space, but if someone doesn't have an extra hour or two worth of free space on their TiVo, then it might be time to buy another one.


My Premiere has 1.5TB, 238HD hours. So the 2TB is 317.
I don't know if TiVo guys are looking at this, and don't know how deeply embedded such code is. Seems the variable option would be great. Let the menu option go up to 4 hours in 30 min increments. 
Those who don't want or need it, for whatever reason, can leave it.


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## ShayL (Jul 18, 2007)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> My Premiere has 1.5TB, 238HD hours. So the 2TB is 317.
> I don't know if TiVo guys are looking at this, and don't know how deeply embedded such code is. Seems the variable option would be great. Let the menu option go up to 4 hours in 30 min increments.
> Those who don't want or need it, for whatever reason, can leave it.


My sentiments exactly.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> You are correct, many things are not a matter of opinion. But in this case, it is.


No, it isn't. One one side you have the user catching a comparative handful of programs while missing hundreds for recording and having less time to watch the ones the TiVo does catch. On the other side you have the TiVo missing some of that handful of programs but catching the rest along with the hundreds that the other method missed and having the time to watch considerably more of them overall. 'Not a single opinion involved anywhere. Nothing but pure, hard, cold mathematics.



astrohip said:


> For example, on my DirecTV DVR (I have both Comcast cable/TiVos and DirecTV), the buffer is 1.5 hours. If there was some empirical evidence that a buffer that long caused harm to person or property, or led to a shorter DVR life, or caused a ripple in the space-time continuum, they would NOT have allowed it. But they did.


In large measure because on the DirecTV DVR, the buffer is necessary. The DirecTV is missing or has severely attenuated the most of the most powerful automation features enjoyed by the TiVo.



astrohip said:


> And TiVo choose 30 minutes, for their own reasons (which probably made sense 10 years ago).


With the vastly expanded number of channels today, it makes even more sense.



astrohip said:


> So one company chooses .5 and the other chooses 1.5. Why? They had differing opinions on this particular option, and they each chose a different path. Opinions with no right or wrong, just a choice.


Nonsense. These are *ENGINEERS* of which you are speaking. We don't employ opinions whenever possible. We calculate. Sometimes we have to roll the dice, and sometimes we have to make subjective decisions, but those are very rare, except when developers create user interfaces. On the Tivo, the buffers are largely superfluous, and without them the system (which includes the user) is more effective and efficient. On most other DVRs, failing to have a significant buffer results in potentially missing a distressingly large fraction of programs, especially back in the days when there were only a comparative handful of channels available. Today, as I already mentioned, the probability space is much, much larger, so the specific applicability of the buffer is far lower than it was 10 years ago. The point is, the probability is a calculation - and a very simple one, actually - not an opinion.



astrohip said:


> Aside: My guess is the 30 minute buffers are coded so deep into the TiVo software that it's not worth the time or expense to change it. This is not a mission-critical problem, so they leave it alone. .02


Your guess is wrong. The bufferhack utility has been available for many years, and all it does is make a few simple changes to the MFS file system to allocate more or less space to the buffer areas. It was developed circa 2002.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Ed_Hunt said:


> This is totally 100% a matter of opinion. As long as it is an option.


It is in no way a matter of opinion, any more than it is a matter of opinion that a man with $10,000 in the bank has more money than one with $10 in the bank. It is a matter of choice (again, not opinion) in which bank one decides to actually keep ones' money, but the size of the accounts is in absoluetly no way a matter of opinion. Neither is it a matter of opinion that choosing not to watch live TV at all will result in being able to watch more programs and missing fewer recordings. It is FACT; calculable, observable, and demonstrable. Choosing to waste ones' time and to miss a large number of great programs is entirely one's own decision, but it is not based upon opinion.

Nothing about any of this subject has anything to do with opinions, any more than the fact 2 x 2 = 4 or the fact the maximum obtainable throughput of a standard 802.11g network is 54 Mbps, or the fact a mobius strip only has one surface.


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## Ed_Hunt (Jan 2, 2004)

"Nonsense. These are ENGINEERS of which you are speaking. We don't employ opinions whenever possible. We calculate. Sometimes we have to roll the dice, and sometimes we have to make subjective decisions, but those are very rare, except when developers create user interfaces. On the Tivo, the buffers are largely superfluous, and without them the system (which includes the user) is more effective and efficient. On most other DVRs, failing to have a significant buffer results in potentially missing a distressingly large fraction of programs, especially back in the days when there were only a comparative handful of channels available. Today, as I already mentioned, the probability space is much, much larger, so the specific applicability of the buffer is far lower than it was 10 years ago. The point is, the probability is a calculation - and a very simple one, actually - not an opinion."

Your Train just went off the track. I know many Engineers and they all have opinions about everything.
There are Math calculations involved in everything not the least is opinions. You can write an equation to suit anything you want to prove. We are expressing opinions as to do we want more buffer or not. There doesn't need to be any equation involved in do I want 30 minutes or more than 30 minutes as an option. No math involved only opinions as to do I want it. As far as being more efficient without buffers, no one is looking for more efficient, just more buffer space, talk about over thinking a simple subject, you really have way too much time on your hands. I understand you want everyone to read your posts and say wow is he ever smart. It ain't working partner. You are either talking over peoples heads or, and this is closer to the truth, just putting out a lot of white noise.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DonaldBurns65144 said:


> Or maybe it would okay if we had a slightly larger buffer. Oh no, I just came out of the closet and told the world that I'm a newbie or less than experienced master of Tivo, just a person that has had a Tivo for about 10 years or so and never let it rule my viewing.


Neither do I, not in the least. I let it rule the recording, which is what it is extremely good at doing. I rule the viewing, and don't waste my time getting in the way of the recording.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> I wonder how "experienced users" ever add to their viewing interests if they never watch live TV?


Thumbs-up and wishlists, primarily, although once again, the *TIVO* does most of that. You are petulantly ignoring the fact I categorically stated I have never watched "live TV", not once, since I got a TiVo back in late 1999, yet my TiVos (four of them, now) faithfully record hundreds of programs a week. Some of them are even TV series. Not only was it possible to do so, it was far easier and took less of my time than slogging through more than 14,000 programs a week to find some I like.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> Most of the programs we like end up going the way of the dodo after a few years and we seek new shows to watch.


First of all, that statement presumes the user watches nothing but TV series. I watch rather few series, which means the TiVo (not me) has to search for new and different programs every day, not every few years. It does so with great facility and without bothering me very much.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> Suggestions seem to try want me to watch some crud about vampires or cooking shows about the best way to eat a snake.


Thumbs-down. 'Takes about half a second.

I had a six year old living with me for a few months, so on one of the TiVos, I seeded the Suggestions with a couple of cartoons and some thumbs-up. Within 3 or 4 days, the TiVo was recording dozens of cartoons every day without me ever selecting a single one. Of course, that did not automatically stop when he left, but a few thumbs-down and after a few days the flood shut off. Now that TiVo almost never suggests a children's cartoon.

Oh, and just FYI, my family and I frequently eat snakes. Their flesh is delicate and delicious, and here in South Texas they are plentiful. My sister killed a rattlesnake in her yard yesterday. She gave it to my brother, and he and his family will probably eat it next week.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> Plus I'm not prepared or willing to allow a box to take over my life to the point that I can't walk away for more than 30 minutes.


Don't ever watch live TV, and you can walk away for hours, days, or even weeks (if you have a large enough hard drive) withouit missing anything. What is this obsession with Live TV? It offers nothing that can't be had more easily and effectively via other means.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> There's many times that I've turn on the TV only to catch the end of something that started 34 minutes earlier and the missing 4 minutes is critical to the whole plot. Would have nice to see those missing few minutes.


What is hard to understand about the fact if the TiVo is properly configured, it would already have been recording, and you would not have missed it, even if the beginning were 8 hours ago?



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> If I was more experienced (read spent a good part of my whole life programming my Tivo)


Try reading what I write. When I get a new TiVo, I spend about two hours setting it up, creating wishists, etc. Then over a period of about six weeks I spend a few minutes every time I sit down to fine tune its training. After that, I rarely ever do anything but press <Play>, and occasionally offer a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down. Once every two weeks, one one of my TiVos I do browse quickly through the list of HD movies offered over the next 12 days or so (typically about 5000 movie titles with about 30,000 showings) to see if there are a handful the TiVo has missed. Whenever a new movie comes out in the theaters I want to catch, I create a wishlist for it on one of the TiVos. That's it.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> then I guess I won't have to worry I'd be watching Big Brother's program list of suggestions (eat more snake)


Don't be moronic. The TiVo is nothing even remotely like Big Brother. It is closer to being Kato from the Green Hornet. A faithful servant and valet who can be given very broad and non-specific instructions that he then turns into luxurious offerings for the master.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> and could be safe within a cocoon of Tivo fed to me programs. Or in my case more of my wife's Hallmark or Lifetime movies. EEK!!!


And keeping your wife happy is a bad thing? You must like sleeping on the sofa. Your point is valid to a certain extent, though. An individual TiVo does not handle multiple viewing content preferences all that well. This mostly means the recorded programs will be a large mix of all the preferences, meaning there will likely be a lot of programs you don't like, as well as a lot your wife does not like, but you do, and a bit more in the way of ones neither of you like. It's called a marriage, and it wasn't TiVo's idea for you to get married. Separate his and her TiVos (and kid's TiVos) are one possible solution. It is true as in the famous words of one TiVo owner, "Between my like of war films and the Military Channel and my wife's love of fashion shows and musicals, my TiVo is convinced I am a gay Nazi."

Just BTW, I happen to like a number of the movies on Hallmark, and the TiVo has recorded 8 of them that were good enough to archive without my telling it to. I'm willing to bet, despite the snotty remark, that over a period of some years there are a handful on that channel that you would like very much, but your limited methods of handling the TiVo mean it is unlikely you will ever see them.

I have programs recorded from 91 different channels that I deem special enough to keep on the server so they can be watched again and again, plus another 40 channels represented on the TiVos, and all but maybe 20 or so of the more than 2000 total programs are pretty terrific. From how many channels do your TiVos have programming you like? How many are available for you to watch immediately and in full when you sit down? You can treat your TiVo like it is nothing but a VCR with a lot of storage if you choose, but it is far, far more than that, and investigating the difference, rather than uttering fatuous platitudes will inevitably result in a far greater viewing experience.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Ed_Hunt said:


> Your Train just went off the track. I know many Engineers and they all have opinions about everything.


Of course we do. We are, after all, human, and even we do not have access to every fact in the universe. When we go to design something, however, we try as much as physically possible to leave our opinions out of the design except when it comes to aesthetics.



Ed_Hunt said:


> We are expressing opinions as to do we want more buffer or not.


That is not an opinion. It is a choice, or if you like a personal preference. Such need not necessarily involve either opinions or facts, or indeed any cognitive facility. Often they just involve habits. Few smokers these days fail to realize they would be much better off not smoking, or that smoking costs them a great deal of money. It is a habit, nothing more or less.



Ed_Hunt said:


> There doesn't need to be any equation involved in do I want 30 minutes or more than 30 minutes as an option.


Again, it doesn't involve any opinion, either, just a preference. That preference, however, can be predicated upon nothing more than what one is used to doing, or it can be predicated upon what will produce the best result. Which method produces the most efficient and effective result is not a matter of opinion. It can be measured and predicted. What someone likes (e.g.wants) is nothing but a matter of familiarity, and preferences can and will change with time. Few people, for example, like beer or wine the first time they try them. They are called "acquired tastes", but the fact is, all taste and all likes and wants are acquired. It is foolish to allow them to impact the quality of one's life, even for something as trivial as watching TV.



Ed_Hunt said:


> No math involved only opinions as to do I want it.


Which does nothing to justify an engineer's investing his time and effort to produce a demonstrably inferior platform, and once again, it is not an opinion. It is a fact you want it and a fact I realize it is not a good idea.



Ed_Hunt said:


> As far as being more efficient without buffers, no one is looking for more efficient, just more buffer space


Then they are being very foolish. Owning a device and using it in a way that produces a result no one would desire is not in any way wise, no matter how comfortable one might feel with the old way of doing it. Again, look at the stats I posted above: more than 2000 programs from more than 130 different channels without my doing so much as picking up the remote. What's more, that list is composed of titles I consider to be almost all in the top 5% of programs created over the last 80 years.



Ed_Hunt said:


> talk about over thinking a simple subject


It doesn't require much thought, and yes it is quite simple: "live" TV is a waste of time and effort. Many of the responses in this thread, however, are the result of no thinking whatsoever, but are instead nothing but emotional responses. Sarcasm, enmity, derision, mockery, and of course desire are all in obvious evidence, but precious little thought.



Ed_Hunt said:


> you really have way too much time on your hands.


Part of the reason I have more time is I don't waste it selecting programs to record or in watching live TV. As it happens, it has been 4 days since I had a chance to sit and watch anything. Exactly what good was the buffer during that entire time? Few people, if any watch as much as 8 hours a day, so that means for even the most avid "live" TV watcher, the buffer does nothing at all but waste space at least 67% of the day.



Ed_Hunt said:


> I understand you want everyone to read your posts and say wow is he ever smart.


No. What I want, or rather don't want, is to see the TiVo development taking the perfectly vomitous direction it threatens to take. I look at the Premier, and I want to gag. Your preferences don't affect just you. They affect me, as well.



Ed_Hunt said:


> It ain't working partner. You are either talking over peoples heads or, and this is closer to the truth, just putting out a lot of white noise.


Yet it is amazing, isn't it, that the engineers at TiVo appear to agree with me, at least for the time being. While we are on the subject of opinions, however, that statement of yours *IS* an opinion, but like almost all opinions (including mine), it is really of no consequence. If you want to impress me (although I suspect you may not care), then offer facts, figures, calculations, and confirmed observations, not opinions.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> That is not an opinion. It is a choice, or if you like a personal preference. Such need not necessarily involve either opinions or facts, or indeed any cognitive facility. Often they just involve habits. Few smokers these days fail to realize they would be much better off not smoking, or that smoking costs them a great deal of money. It is a habit, nothing more or less.


That's not a good analogy. Biting your nails is a habit. Cigarettes, or more specifically nicotine, is a proven addictive substance. Calling smoking "a habit, nothing more or less" is being naive. Equating learning to use the TiVo software "correctly" (i.e. your way) with trying to battle addiction is insulting on a number of levels.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Wow. Just wow.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

astrohip said:


> Wow. Just wow.


I know, huh? I was about to set this thread to 'ignore' but the tangents are getting more remarkable.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> ...
> What is this obsession with Live TV? It offers nothing that can't be had more easily and effectively via other means.
> What is hard to understand about the fact if the TiVo is properly configured, it would already have been recording, and you would not have missed it, even if the beginning were 8 hours ago?
> ...


This "if the TiVo is properly configured, it would already have been recording" is not always true. Here's a simple example - not something far-fetched, but something that actually happened to me many times, and no doubt will happen again:


There are sport shows that last several hours (think grand slam tennis or olympics coverage). In the guide each one may be a 5 or 6 hour show.
Such coverage is frequently composed of mostly independent pieces (think several tennis matches, some of which are of a lot more interest than others), but frequently it is unclear as to when or if an interesting match will be shown.
I did make an auto-recording wishlist, which did capture the event. However, there is a tuner conflict with the last hour of the coverage, so it is not being recorded. I'd like to see the first 4 or 5 hours, though; I'd probably fast forward through it until I see an interesting match going on.
Tivo does not (to the best of my knowledge) have a way to specify that I want to record as much of a show as possible; it will record all of the show or none of it (except for the 5 minute clipping).
I do not want to set up a whole bunch of manual recordings; that is a hassle, and a continuing one at that (i.e I'd have to keep checking for conflicts and keep creating manual recordings).
I happen to sit by the TV, and I am curious as to who's playing tennis or whatever, so I'll know if I'll be interested in watching more (the conflict is two hours away). So, I tune in - not very hard to do at all, as there are very few channels that could be showing a particular event, so I can find it in the guide right away. Furthermore, maybe it is already on this channel as it was recording previous "episode" of the coverage (very likely for me, as typically such coverage is being shown several times a day, so in the evening it is still on the channel it was recording in the morning; I do not record suggestions to mess with this). Something interesting is going on, and I decide to watch it for a while. If TV was already on that channel (which, again, is fairly high probability for me), I would likely want to rewind a bit from the buffer; and a bit more than 30 minutes of the buffer would come handy. Also, hitting record here does not help due to conflict, I'd have to set a manual recording instead, which I do not feel like

Please don't tell me that had I set Tivo properly this would not have happened, that I do not really want to watch the sport event and should watch something already recorded instead, or that I should change show priorities. Sometimes I feel like watching sports, and sometimes I feel like checking out on an event that is happening. The only thing that would help is a way to allow partial recordings; if that were possible, I would probably watch live TV close to never.


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## DonaldBurns65144 (Jan 11, 2011)

I really don't see why buffer size is any of your concern. You seem happy with your Tivo units. Fine. Feel free to go off and enjoy your hundreds of recorded programs. I'm happy for you. Meanwhile, please let the rest of us discuss what we'd like to have in this imperfect world that the rest of us live in. Maybe we could even have a buffer that varies depending upon each person's personal choice? Discussion and differing opinions are still is allowed, I hope. 

I for one would like a buffer longer than 30 minutes.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DonaldBurns65144 said:


> I for one would like a buffer longer than 30 minutes.


You are wrong. Plain, out-right wrong. You are desiring to use your TiVo in a way that the TiVo engineers never imagined. In fact, they hoped and prayed no one would ever want to misuse their device (their device, not yours) in the way you are attempting. I would guess if their bosses would allow it, they would rather buy it back from you than see you propose such an outlandish, despicable use of their device.

Want proof? Here it is...



lrhorer said:


> Then they are being very foolish. Owning a device and using it in a way that produces a result no one would desire is not in any way wise, no matter how comfortable one might feel with the old way of doing it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Amusing thread.



DonaldBurns65144 said:


> I really don't see why buffer size is any of your concern.


Really?

You want TiVo to spend time and resources on a feature that some people think is irrelevant. We all know that TiVo has limited time and resources so if they spend it on rewriting their code to give you longer/adjustable buffers we know something else gets delayed or not done at all. So yes your desire does effect everyone.

But it is clear there is a subset of TiVo users that would like longer/adjustable buffers. My advise is, if this is important to you contact TiVo and tell them. If enough people do that it may move up on (or be added to) TiVo's to do list.

But honestly you probably will get more bang for you time by just learning how to utilize your TiVo's current features to minimize watching "live" TV and thus not need any buffer.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

Wow, tough room! I don't see why some people can't wish for choices that would work better for THEM with THEIR equipment. I'm fine with the 30 minutes, for the most part, but I certainly don't see a reason to begrudge others their needs. 

I wouldn't want a forced increase of buffer time, but choices are always good.


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## jasew (Jun 12, 2012)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> There's a use case for a buffer option, no reason it can't be set for 4 hours.
> 
> You walk in, turn on the TV. A show you weren't recording is 2 hours long and you just came in during the last 15 minutes. This is one time that buffer would come in handy.


Same here. There's been a few times when my wife turns the TV on and sees an interesting special on. She'll hit record, but if the show started more than a half-hour prior, then the Tivo can't get all of that show even though the tuner has been on that station the whole time.

Because the shows in question tends to be non-repeating specials, we discover them spontaneously. It's not as if I can set up a wish list for that.

For the situations we run into, a 1-hour buffer wold cover most of them.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

atmuscarella said:


> You want TiVo to spend time and resources on a feature that some people think is irrelevant. We all know that TiVo has limited time and resources so if they spend it on rewriting their code to give you longer/adjustable buffers we know something else gets delayed or not done at all. So yes your desire does effect everyone.


Unless TiVo's programmers bungled the design originally, increasing the length of the buffers should require only a few hours of some programmer's time. It should be just a matter of changing something (a data constant one would hope) that specifies how long video data takes to age out and be deallocated. Making this a user option would require menu programming, which would take more work, but even that shouldn't be too difficult.


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## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> The question is, "Why ever bring up live TV at all?" It offers no advantages.


Because I watch so much TV that everything I have recorded I already watched at the moment.

There are only two times of the year when I use live TV:

At the end of the fall season before the summer seasons starts.

At the end of the summer season before the new fall season starts.

Sometimes I don't know what I want to watch and need to explore live TV for something new, granted the second I find something I hit record and come back 15 minutes later.

I really only watch live TV if I am waiting for another show to record enough for me to skip commercials.

The Advantages = Finding a show TiVo didn't recommend to me. Especially helpful if you start watching a new genera. Like when I started getting in shows like Ancient Aliens.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I have my shows picked out before the fall season starts . I watch the trailers and then setup some SPs to watch. Of course I delete most of them.


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## supersportsfan (Sep 15, 2005)

PedjaR said:


> This "if the TiVo is properly configured, it would already have been recording" is not always true. Here's a simple example - not something far-fetched, but something that actually happened to me many times, and no doubt will happen again:
> 
> 
> There are sport shows that last several hours (think grand slam tennis or olympics coverage). In the guide each one may be a 5 or 6 hour show.
> ...


You are missing the point here. He doesn't watch nor care sports. POINT NULL AND VOID.


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## brian1269 (Jul 24, 2003)

What I don't understand is why there are people on this forum who always are against any kind of change, even if it could be done in a way that wouldn't affect them.

OK, so you don't think you would need a longer buffer. You claim you always record anything you might be interested in watching. That's great. But TiVo could very easily make it an option where the user could select, for example, none, 30 min, 1 hour or 2 hours. Very simple thing to do and would make many users very happy.

All of you that don't think a buffer longer than 30 minutes, or one doesn't reset every time the tuner is changed to another channel, would be useful, can keep it exactly like it is. For those of us who would like options, we would get to use it like we wish.

Now maybe I am off base. Maybe there is a crucial reason that would kill the performance of the unit as to why TiVo does not allow a longer buffer. I have yet to hear anything like that though. If someone can enlighten me, I would love to hear from you.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Maybe they do plan on enabling a longer buffer option? But on the "to do" list it's right below converting all the screens to HD.
Maybe it will be an option on an S5 box?


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## brian1269 (Jul 24, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Maybe they do plan on enabling a longer buffer option? But on the "to do" list it's right below converting all the screens to HD.
> Maybe it will be an option on an S5 box?


I think quite a few users have been asking for this for many years. Like I said, it's a very simple to implement.

And please don't talk about an S5, I just got a Premiere Elite. lol


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Just because someone says it is easy to implement does not make it easy to implement. My guess is that if it were so easy, it would already be in the queue.

This kind of change is a detail, especially considering how long it has been in place. While I, and others, understand how some use the buffer (especially those coming from other DVRs), many of us prefer that TiVo utilize their limited resources to address some of the basics and more important features before adding such a specialty item. 

I don't have any issue with anyone wanting this. But I would want TiVo to work on other things first.


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## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

I think people say "easy" because were asking to increase the level of a current feature not ad a new one from scratch. 

I would love to know what would needs to actually happen to increase the size. There is probably a very good simple reason to why the limit it to 30 minutes, hard drive lifespan might play into it for all I know. 

I am just speculating mind you, as a web developer I completely understand how something trivial may sound easy but really it requires upgrading 5 core system components.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

Just to set lrhorer off again, it seems to me that those who are green (i.e. trying to save every last bit of energy usage) would like a zero buffer option or something like that.
A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.


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## Ky_Shag (Jan 26, 2012)

> A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.


Thats what i want


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sharkster said:


> Wow, tough room! I don't see why some people can't wish for choices that would work better for THEM with THEIR equipment. I'm fine with the 30 minutes, for the most part, but I certainly don't see a reason to begrudge others their needs.
> 
> I wouldn't want a forced increase of buffer time, but choices are always good.


No one is claiming that choices are a bad idea.

No one is begrudging anyone anything.

The point that is being missed is that the inevitable result of using live buffers is taking a longer time to watch less TV. One can say or believe one wants something, but when that thing inevitably results in uinintended consequences, then no matter what one believes, one doesn't actually want what one thinks one wants.

Let me cut to the chase, however, and be done with it. Opinions, analyses, wants and desire are all irrelevant to the original question at hand.

Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:

1. Continue to moan and complain and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

2. Suffer in silence and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

3. Abandon the Tivo.

4. Investigate the things others of us have suggested and maybe - just maybe - find the buffer is neither as necessary or as desirable as one originally believed. Then, if in the long run it turns out not to be true, one can always revisit number 1, 2, or 3.

In the mean time, those of us who have taken the small amount of mental effort required by #4 are very happy with what we have. How many of you on the other side of the fence are happy with #1 or #3?


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## todd_j_derr (Jun 6, 2000)

Thank you! I had no idea that despite using 5 different models of DVRs over the past 13 years, I was but an idiotic "duffer", as you say. Why, just look at my meager post count! I guess I must not be as dumb as that person with 11 posts you pointed out earlier, but I'm still like 100 times dumber than you. Well, I'm not sure about that - numbers are not my strong suit. BTW, I have had people call me an "engineer" but in real life I just write code and I've never even driven a train so I'm at a complete loss to explain that one. (?)

So, can I please hire you to come to my house and set up my Tivos properly so I never have to be stuck watching sub-optimal TV again? If you could teach me the secret of how to be so absolutely sure about my way of thinking that I know for certain that it applies to every other living person, I'd gladly pay extra.

Thanks again!


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Just to set lrhorer off again, it seems to me that those who are green (i.e. trying to save every last bit of energy usage) would like a zero buffer option or something like that.
> A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.


Well, it's probable that spinning a drive up and down that often is bad for the drive. And isn't it "greener" to have the drive last longer than to save a miniscule amount of power? Plus, a net connected TiVo checks in fairly often with the mother ship. OTOH, even if the drive were still spinning, it might save a little wear and tear on the head actuator mechanism if weren't recording. I think this is exactly what the old DTiVos did when placed in "standby".


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## MC Hammer (Jul 29, 2011)

lpwcomp said:


> Well, it's probable that spinning a drive up and down that often is bad for the drive. And isn't it "greener" to have the drive last longer than to save a miniscule amount of power? Plus, a net connected TiVo checks in fairly often with the mother ship. OTOH, even if the drive were still spinning, it might save a little wear and tear on the head actuator mechanism if weren't recording. I think this is exactly what the old DTiVos did when placed in "standby".


What do you mean? The drive never stops spinning so long as the box is connected to power.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

MC Hammer said:


> What do you mean? The drive never stops spinning so long as the box is connected to power.


He was replying to my "feature suggestion" that one option for the TiVo Software team is for a "green" mode that powers down when not in use. (I haven't measured my Premiers' power draw yet)
If one records and watches 2 hr a day, the TiVo would be running 24 hours but used for 4. So whatever the power draw is now, it would be close to 1/6 in that mode.

As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.

I counter with the wear on all components inside the TiVo. Electronics lifetime is related as well to the number of hours they are in use, and processors in particular run hotter when in full use than in the low power (idle, sleep,snooze,doze, whatever) modes. So it's an exercise for the reader to understand the tradeoffs.

Easier to replace drive than most anything on the mother board. (IMHO)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.
> 
> I counter with the wear on all components inside the TiVo. Electronics lifetime is related as well to the number of hours they are in use, and processors in particular run hotter when in full use than in the low power (idle, sleep,snooze,doze, whatever) modes. So it's an exercise for the reader to understand the tradeoffs.
> 
> Easier to replace drive than most anything on the mother board. (IMHO)


As is often the case, people seize on one part of a post and ignore the rest.

I will counter with:

1. that I also pointed out that:
a. if the intent is to be "green", replacing the hard drive more often is wasting more resources than you save.
b. a net connected TiVo would have to wake up quite often to contact the mother ship

2. a TiVo mb rarely fails.

3. While the drive is the most easily replaced component, it is also the one most likely to fail anyway.

I will also add that if you put all of the tuners on channels you don't receive, it probably stops recording, thus emulating the behavior of the old DTiVos.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> As is often the case, people seize on one part of a post and ignore the rest.


Sorry. Really. Yes, I focused on the tradeoff I saw. Your points are well taken, regardless of each and every point, my proposal has flaws.

There are government regulations (overseas, I know for sure) that non-used systems (say a clock radio that's off) can only draw so much power. I starting with the premiss that the buffering TiVo would take more power than the lowest mode one can imagine.

My 'often the case' wasn't sarcasm, by the way. You pointed out something I hadn't considered, and it would be pretty bad to have drives failing at 10X the rate due to an attempt to save power. Obviously the other points need addressing as well. No green TiVo for me today.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> My 'often the case' wasn't sarcasm, by the way. You pointed out something I hadn't considered, and it would be pretty bad to have drives failing at 10X the rate due to an attempt to save power. Obviously the other points need addressing as well. No green TiVo for me today.


Sorry if I seemed a bit sensitive. I've been dealing with other posters in other threads who do exactly what I was complaining about.

Actually, the main reason for my post was to avoid making one (that I actually composed) that was an indirect response to a certain other poster on this thread who shall remain nameless. I decided to take my own advice and ignore him.


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## porges (Feb 28, 2001)

OK, who let Sheldon get a TiVo?


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> Sorry if I seemed a bit sensitive.


Understood. Appreciate the note.



lpwcomp said:


> I decided to take my own advice and ignore him.


I'm with you. And I'm open to ideas, even those that prove mine to be a 'fail.' For example - I request my TiVo to record a show remotely, and get an email within an hour on average that that TiVo acknowledged the request. If it can't phone home frequently, this fast feature fails. Now, that's bad, but we probably agree reducing MTBF on the drives kills my idea even faster. Good to talk to you.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

porges said:


> OK, who let Sheldon get a TiVo?


"Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur."


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> He was replying to my "feature suggestion" that one option for the TiVo Software team is for a "green" mode that powers down when not in use. (I haven't measured my Premiers' power draw yet)
> If one records and watches 2 hr a day, the TiVo would be running 24 hours but used for 4. So whatever the power draw is now, it would be close to 1/6 in that mode.
> 
> As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.
> ...


An Elite/XL4 draws around 22 watts. A two tuner Premiere draws arourd 24 watts.

Sent from my HTC ReZound


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

aaronwt said:


> An Elite/XL4 draws around 22 watts. A two tuner Premiere draws around 24 watts.
> 
> Sent from my HTC ReZound


22W = $28.91/yr at 15 cents the KWH. Hardly worth going after the $20/yr one 'might' squeeze out. That's amazing since I'm looking at a series 2 single tuner showing 23W. I guess that's almost $30/yr in favor of the 4 tuner over 2 2 tuner models. Plus outlet fees, yada yada.

This concludes my stupid green tangent. Thanks to all who participated.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Such a long thread over something that has little value. I'd hate to see TiVo waste time on this. However, they eventually caved on the FSI so it wouldn't surprise me. 

I guess if such a feature has to be forced down everyone then at the very least make it configurable. I don't want to waste my hard drive space with needed size that would need to accompany the larger buffers.


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## poofy (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes Tivo, I want longer buffer. Please make it 90 minutes or at least 60 minutes.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:
> 
> 1. Continue to moan and complain and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.
> 
> ...


5. Hack their TiVo to enable the longer buffer. Far more of a pain that it used to be, but I _think_ it's still possible (may require a hardware prom modification)


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> 5. Hack their TiVo to enable the longer buffer. Far more of a pain that it used to be, but I _think_ it's still possible (may require a hardware prom modification)


AFAIK there is no hardware modification for the Premiere that would allow for hacks.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

poofy said:


> Yes Tivo, I want longer buffer. Please make it 90 minutes or at least 60 minutes.


If TiVo spent money doing that how many new subs would TiVo get?, would people rush out and purchase a new TiVo now, because it has a bigger buffer? I know a subset of experienced TiVo users may like a longer buffer, it would not be a negative if it did come about, but most TiVo users (not on this form) don't use much of the extra stuff TiVo now has, they just record and watch, many just have one TiVo so MRS or MRV itself has no meaning for them. 
Someone should do a poll about how many TiVo users use anything extra beyond MRV and MRS, such a You-tube (I have used it three times) Pictures from my computer to my TiVo (I have used it once) music (I never used that from my TiVo), purchase movie tickets (never for me) and i could go on and on. I sure some people use these features many times, but what % of users do that.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

lessd said:


> Someone should do a poll about how many TiVo users use anything extra beyond MRV and MRS, such a You-tube (I have used it three times) Pictures from my computer to my TiVo (I have used it once) music (I never used that from my TiVo), purchase movie tickets (never for me) and i could go on and on. I sure some people use these features many times, but what % of users do that.


You are right. Probably a small fraction.
I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> You are right. Probably a small fraction.
> I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.


I think many of us on this forum have allot more "stuff" attached to our TVs than the typical household, so using our TiVo's for anything other than a DVR really isn't necessary.

I do stream Pandora from my TiVo but I actually have 3 TiVos and 5 other devices (Roku, Netgear NeoTV, Logitech Revue, Panasonic Blu-Ray Player, & a HTPC) attached to my Receiver that can stream Pandora plus the receiver itself can also stream Pandora.

Honestly if TiVo didn't do anything other than be a good DVR I wouldn't notice.


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## freerule (Jun 23, 2012)

lrhorer said:


> Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:
> 
> 1. Continue to moan...
> 2. Suffer in silence...
> ...


There is at least one other easy option if a user can live with 480i. Send the output of the TiVo to an old ReplayTV with its disc sized buffer. But for most, why bother?


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> You are right. Probably a small fraction.
> I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.


I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.

As far as wanting a longer buffer, I would definitely like that. I do not use Suggestions and never have as I feel like it's a waste of time dealing with loads of shows I'll never, ever watch, and absolutely does not mean that I am using my TiVo *less efficiently* than those that do (to suggest such a thing is both arrogant and incorrect). So, my TiVo Elite is not recording a good deal of the time, and there have been many occasions where I'd like to back up and watch what happens to be on.

That happened just today. My wife and I got home from a movie and Olympic diving was on NBC. It sure would have been cool to be able to back up to the beginning of that rather than only 30 minutes.

To whoever feels that I should have taken the time to plan ahead and record this instead of just running into it on Live TV, I invite you to remain silent on the matter. 

Oh, and I'm also an engineer. So there is that. I don't feel that my profession entitles me to elevate my opinions above those of others. What a pathetic joke.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

djwilso said:


> I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.
> 
> As far as wanting a longer buffer, I would definitely like that. I do not use Suggestions and never have as I feel like it's a waste of time dealing with loads of shows I'll never, ever watch, and absolutely does not mean that I am using my TiVo less efficiently than those that do (to suggest such a thing is both arrogant and incorrect). So, my TiVo Elite is not recording a good deal of the time, and there have been many occasions where I'd like to back up and watch what happens to be on.
> 
> ...


Actually since there is the ability to plan better then I'd say that this feature could wait for several others that would add real value to get more subscribers. An integrated NPL and network scheduling have much greater possibility for doing this than adding more to the buffer. I really want to see that list they had for mom, dad, etc.... When the premiere came out. There are so many great things they could do besides just adding to the buffer but hopefully they are asking through TiVo advisors before deciding that it should be high on the list.


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

I agree that increasing the buffer should never come before all the other requests.

And TiVo should definitely work on preventing the box from rebooting at the first sign of lost Internet connection or bad cable signal WAY before thinking about buffers.

I'm really waiting for the IP box to come out. I'd really like to retire my Series 3 depending on the IP box's capabilities.


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## dboff01 (Feb 5, 2012)

djwilso said:


> Oh, and I'm also an engineer. So there is that. I don't feel that my profession entitles me to elevate my opinions above those of others. What a pathetic joke.


As am I, the fellow with a lowly 13 posts on the Tivo forum. However, I did appreciate the education on the wonderful and magical technology behind the Tivo. 

I too have never cared for the Suggestions feature and have always disabled it both on my Series 2 and now on my Premiere. Regarding the 30 minute buffer, it is too short on occasion, as you noted. Whether Tivo ever changes is not really a big deal, just a suggestion on a forum, not really worth arguing about one way or another.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

djwilso said:


> I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.


Very cool. In both senses.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

Yes, I know, if I wanted to see "Face the Nation" I should have recorded "Face The Nation."
But anyway, at 11:20, i happened to turn on the TV, to watch a show I did record, and this happened to be on. It's an hour show, 10:30 to 11:30. 
I hit record, and the "my shows" told me I had the first 50 minutes all set. 
I don't use suggestions. This seems to tell me this TiVo is running a longer buffer.


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## DonaldBurns65144 (Jan 11, 2011)

Many channels have incorrect guide listings. There's been many times that I've turned on the TV and found a program that was not listed, but of interest, and advanced beyond the 30 minute buffer limit. Since the program is incorrectly listed there's no guaranty that it will be correct at some later time/date. A larger buffer would allow viewing from the beginning.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Yes, I know, if I wanted to see "Face the Nation" I should have recorded "Face The Nation."
> But anyway, at 11:20, i happened to turn on the TV, to watch a show I did record, and this happened to be on. It's an hour show, 10:30 to 11:30.
> I hit record, and the "my shows" told me I had the first 50 minutes all set.
> I don't use suggestions. This seems to tell me this TiVo is running a longer buffer.


As noted earlier (ref. post #30), the Tivo actually allocates more than 30 minutes of content to memory for Live TV. TiVo is 'playing it safe' that no matter how the video is encoded, they will always have a 30 minute Live TV buffer.
The sooner you hit Record on Live TV, the better chance you have of capturing more content.


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## brian1269 (Jul 24, 2003)

magnus said:


> Such a long thread over something that has little value. I'd hate to see TiVo waste time on this. However, they eventually caved on the FSI so it wouldn't surprise me.
> 
> I guess if such a feature has to be forced down everyone then at the very least make it configurable. I don't want to waste my hard drive space with needed size that would need to accompany the larger buffers.


Maybe useless to you, but obviously not to many others. We should have a choice. Some of us have larger hard drives than others and would love to have a larger buffer. And yes, it should be configurable so you can have a choice between no buffer at all (for you apparently) to 90 minutes or two hours for the one or two of us that would like one.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

brian1269 said:


> Maybe useless to you, but obviously not to many others. We should have a choice. Some of us have larger hard drives than others and would love to have a larger buffer. And yes, it should be configurable so you can have a choice between no buffer at all (for you apparently) to 90 minutes or two hours for the one or two of us that would like one.


Yep, when you compare it to other features that TiVo should/could work on... Then yes it's pretty useless to change this feature (configurable or otherwise).


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## brian1269 (Jul 24, 2003)

magnus said:


> Yep, when you compare it to other features that TiVo should/could work on... Then yes it's pretty useless to change this feature (configurable or otherwise).


Absolutely no reason they can't do it along with other pressing issues, which I agree are more important. But it's a line of code. Right now it tells it to record 30 minutes. It could very easily be changed to either an hour (the length of the majority shows on TV) or add a few more lines of code to make it configurable. This is not a matter or resources, it is just a matter of whether they want to do it or not. And no, I'm not a programmer, but I but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Or maybe I just consulted with some programmers I know and asked just how difficult it would be to make a change like this.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

brian1269 said:


> But it's a line of code. Right now it tells it to record 30 minutes. It could very easily be changed to either an hour (the length of the majority shows on TV) or add a few more lines of code to make it configurable. This is not a matter or resources, it is just a matter of whether they want to do it or not.


Oh, so you know the ins and outs of the TiVo software?
The people in the underground forum could use a guy like you. 



brian1269 said:


> Or maybe I just consulted with some programmers I know and asked just how difficult it would be to make a change like this.


Do they also know the ins and outs of the TiVo software?
I doubt it.
Of course, I'm not a programmer so I may not know what I'm talking about.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Of course a few changes or additions in a few lines of code won't have any effect on anything else.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

brian1269 said:


> Absolutely no reason they can't do it along with other pressing issues, which I agree are more important. But it's a line of code. Right now it tells it to record 30 minutes. It could very easily be changed to either an hour (the length of the majority shows on TV) or add a few more lines of code to make it configurable. This is not a matter or resources, it is just a matter of whether they want to do it or not. And no, I'm not a programmer, but I but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Or maybe I just consulted with some programmers I know and asked just how difficult it would be to make a change like this.


Among things most often said in a problem analysis meeting: "But I only changed one line (of code)!".


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I love it. It's just one line of code. It should only take you like less than 5 minutes to change.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

magnus said:


> I love it. It's just one line of code. It should only take you like less than 5 minutes to change.


I think 1 line of code is considered about 3 man hours of work at my job, but then we actually test our code.


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