# Game of Thrones: Season FIVE & (all) Book Discussion ** spoilers **



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I've created a new thread to discuss the events of Season 5 and how they compare to the storyline from the books. As book-readers know, the many various plotlines of books 4 and 5 take place simultaneously, so the events in the show this season will be drawn from both books. As such, spoilers from *all* books are in play here.

As per the general agreement reached previously, the individual TV episode threads are off-limits to book discussion.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

/subscribe


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Part of my issue with GoT book threads are I need to go re-read the books as it's been so long since the initial read! My one hope is that do the Arya storyline well, I really like her character growth in the book.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> Part of my issue with GoT book threads are I need to go re-read the books as it's been so long since the initial read! My one hope is that do the Arya storyline well, I really like her character growth in the book.


That's part of what I *like* about these book threads. It's been so long since I've read them, I often don't remember much of a specific storyline, and how it differs from the TV series, until it gets brought up here.

In this week's Entertainment Weekly GoT double issue, they ("TPTB") talked about how they are diverging more and more from the books. In an effort to tell a better TV story, they are taking more liberties as time passes. If you are a GoT fan (and would you be reading this thread if you _weren't_), you should pick up this magazine. LOTS of great info and behind the scenes.

Spoilers, but not really spoilers, but some people get picky...


Spoiler



The entire "Iron Islands" story is being dropped. Not in the TV show at all. And there are some deaths coming that haven't happened in the books. They are being specifically vague as to whether they don't die at all in the books, or die in books 6/7. Plus of course everyone knows by now, that Dani & the Imp meet up this season, and that hasn't happened yet in the books.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I think Arya will get alot of storytime this season. Her faceless training in the books was one of my most favorite parts.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> As such, spoilers from *all* books are in play here.


Just so I know whether to avoid the thread, are you allowing spoilers from book 6 which already has some released material?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DavidJL said:


> Just so I know whether to avoid the thread, are you allowing spoilers from book 6 which already has some released material?


If I had a vote, I would vote No. Officially released books only.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I would say officially released books only.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

There is released material from book 6?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> There is released material from book 6?


Yeah, Martin (or his publisher?) released some chapters online that were originally written for Book 5 but were held back for 6.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jakerock said:


> There is released material from book 6?


I remember reading the pre-released chapter, and then thinking "I know less now than before I read this". His chapters can be an exercise in futility. Taken as a whole (ie, a book), yeah they're something unique. But a chapter on its lonesome can be... less than fulfilling. Like looking at a single puzzle piece and having no idea what the puzzle is supposed to be.

But hey, what do we know?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

astrohip said:


> That's part of what I *like* about these book threads. It's been so long since I've read them, I often don't remember much of a specific storyline, and how it differs from the TV series, until it gets brought up here.
> 
> In this week's Entertainment Weekly GoT double issue, they ("TPTB") talked about how they are diverging more and more from the books. In an effort to tell a better TV story, they are taking more liberties as time passes. If you are a GoT fan (and would you be reading this thread if you _weren't_), you should pick up this magazine. LOTS of great info and behind the scenes.
> 
> ...


Similar spoiler



Spoiler



I was searching for casting news yesterday and was surprised to find that they didn't cast Arianne. I guess this has been known since last Summer, but I hadn't looked into it until now.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Martin has just released a new chapter from Sansa's POV - website is swamped so taking a while to load


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

It was worthless. Silly filler.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> Martin has just released a new chapter from Sansa's POV - website is swamped so taking a while to load


I think maybe it would be better to leave out similar items from this thread, with Sansa it's no big deal as we'd expect to see POV from her, but other characters, just knowing they have a POV in book six could give something away.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DavidJL said:


> I think maybe it would be better to leave out similar items from this thread, with Sansa it's no big deal as we'd expect to see POV from her, but other characters, just knowing they have a POV in book six could give something away.


 oh give me a break. Just delete your subscription to this thread now.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> oh give me a break. Just delete your subscription to this thread now.


I nicely suggested that future posts similar to what he posted would be better left out of the thread.

You should try to read the posts earlier in the thread that discussed whether info from book 6 belongs here. If you have trouble with that try calling 1-800-abc-defg.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DavidJL said:


> I nicely suggested that future posts similar to what he posted would be better left out of the thread.
> 
> You should try to read the posts earlier in the thread that discussed whether info from book 6 belongs here. If you have trouble with that try calling 1-800-abc-defg.


I can't stand when people whine about things that are not even close to spoilers. Just because a particular character has a POV in the next book does not mean it's a spoiler. It's not like GRRM is releasing POV chapters from Ned Stark.

If you want NO information whatsoever from anything in the GoT universe, then you seriously need to reconsider whether you want to be in this thread.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I can't stand when people whine about things that are not even close to spoilers. Just because a particular character has a POV in the next book does not mean it's a spoiler. It's not like GRRM is releasing POV chapters from Ned Stark.
> 
> If you want NO information whatsoever from anything in the GoT universe, then you seriously need to reconsider whether you want to be in this thread.


Hey, while normally I would agree with you, if you have not read the books you would be unaware that one person ends book five on a very sour note, so sour that knowing if that person has POV chapter means that the person in question survived the situation.

For the book readers that don't want to be spoiled about that, it would be a very big deal.

Book 6 info should be spoilered.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Hey, while normally I would agree with you, if you have not read the books you would be unaware that one person ends book five on a very sour note, so sour that knowing if that person has POV chapter means that the person in question survived the situation.
> 
> For the book readers that don't want to be spoiled about that, it would be a very big deal.
> 
> Book 6 info should be spoilered.


Why would you be in this thread if you hadn't read the books? I said nothing about the content of the chapter. I'm not spoilering any chapter titles or POVs. I think it's dumb to think that that could spoil anything.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Oh, and there's no way that they are going to release a chapter from Jon Snow's perspective before the book is released for that very reason. They are only going to release chapters that have no impact on the over all story.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Book 6 info should be spoilered.


That makes perfect sense to me.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Here you go:



Spoiler



Book 6 info


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> If you want NO information whatsoever from anything in the GoT universe, then you seriously need to reconsider whether you want to be in this thread.


If you were capable of scrolling up to the first few posts of the thread you'd see we discussed this in advance. We want to discuss the GoT universe, but not book 6. Here, I'll save you the trouble of scrolling.



DavidJL said:


> Just so I know whether to avoid the thread, are you allowing spoilers from book 6 which already has some released material?





heySkippy said:


> If I had a vote, I would vote No. Officially released books only.





DreadPirateRob said:


> I would say officially released books only.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

DavidJL said:


> I think maybe it would be better to leave out similar items from this thread, with Sansa it's no big deal as we'd expect to see POV from her, but other characters, just knowing they have a POV in book six could give something away.





DavidTigerFan said:


> I can't stand when people whine about things that are not even close to spoilers. Just because a particular character has a POV in the next book does not mean it's a spoiler. It's not like GRRM is releasing POV chapters from Ned Stark.


Try reading my post again, maybe try it slowly. That is about the most politely placed concern for potential future spoilers you're ever gonna see. No demands, complaints or even requests to spoilerize that post. Just a gentle suggestion that a similar post about a different chapter might give something away in the future. If anyone is whining it's you.

Shaun nick pointed out one concern, there are at least 2 other characters that we'd like to find out their "similar" future when we read book 6. If you need to express your thoughts on book 6 like your brilliant editorial on the Sansa chapter why not start a thread on book 6. It's not too tough, I'm sure we could help you with it if needed.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DavidJL said:


> Try reading my post again, maybe try it slowly. That is about the most politely placed concern for potential future spoilers you're ever gonna see. No demands, complaints or even requests to spoilerize that post. Just a gentle suggestion that a similar post about a different chapter might give something away in the future. If anyone is whining it's you. Shaun nick pointed out one concern, there are at least 2 other characters that we'd like to find out their "similar" future when we read book 6. If you need to express your thoughts on book 6 like your brilliant editorial on the Sansa chapter why not start a thread on book 6. It's not too tough, I'm sure we could help you with it if needed.


 I have read it and I still think the idea that a chapter title is a spoiler is stupid. You can complain all you want, but it's not. Regardless, the publishers would never be so stupid as to release a chapter early that told us that Jon snow lives or gave away any other thing. That's why the chapters that have been released have been boring. Oops, did I spoil that too?


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I would say officially released books only.


Since you are the OP, why not just PM the mods and have them change the thread title to be Books 1-5 discussion only?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

No matter how polite it was, I was not happy to see that we set up this thread for those of us up to date on both, and on the first page we are still discussing spoilers. I thought that was the whole point of this thread--to avoid the need for the S word.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> No matter how polite it was, I was not happy to see that we set up this thread for those of us up to date on both, and on the first page we are still discussing spoilers. I thought that was the whole point of this thread--to avoid the need for the S word.


You must be new here...


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> No matter how polite it was, I was not happy to see that we set up this thread for those of us up to date on both, and on the first page we are still discussing spoilers. I thought that was the whole point of this thread--to avoid the need for the S word.


I think if you look at post 1 and post 8 the OP made it clear that by all books he intended books 1-5. Some people are now saying that book 6 is likely to be officially released in late 2016.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> No matter how polite it was, I was not happy to see that we set up this thread for those of us up to date on both, and on the first page we are still discussing spoilers. I thought that was the whole point of this thread--to avoid the need for the S word.





DavidJL said:


> I think if you look at post 1 and post 8 the OP made it clear that by all books he intended books 1-5. Some people are now saying that book 6 is likely to be officially released in late 2016.


And if you notice, I said no content from book 6 should be posted, but DavidJL thinks that the titles that have been released by GRRM are spoilers. I don't, and that's why we are where we are.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Oh, and there's no way that they are going to release a chapter from Jon Snow's perspective before the book is released for that very reason. They are only going to release chapters that have no impact on the over all story.





DavidTigerFan said:


> It was worthless. Silly filler.





DavidTigerFan said:


> And if you notice, I said no content from book 6 should be posted, but DavidJL thinks that the titles that have been released by GRRM are spoilers. I don't, and that's why we are where we are.


Ah, very enlightening, so you would like the thread to cover just books 1-5

except chapter titles from book 6 are ok.

except if the chapter title is Jon or ? or ? or some other title you alone deem too descriptive

The details of what happens in book 6 chapters are off limits

except your expert opinion of whether its filler or not

well that just makes perfect umm, well that makes umm, LMAO


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just finally got around to watching the Talking Dead show for the season finale of Walking Dead. And I was thinking how awesome it would be if they would do a Talking Thrones show. :up:


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DavidJL said:


> Some people are now saying that book 6 is likely to be officially released in late 2016.


How would some people have any clue about that? That's 18 months away. He doesn't make any sort of predictable progress on his GoT books (he writes other stuff and releases it faster). So predicting GoT book releases that far ahead is pure speculation and annoying. (Because I wish he'd write the books for goodness sake. So it's just a reminder that I'm never going to get to finish this dang series.  )


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

jakerock said:


> How would some people have any clue about that? That's 18 months away. He doesn't make any sort of predictable progress on his GoT books (he writes other stuff and releases it faster). So predicting GoT book releases that far ahead is pure speculation and annoying. (Because I wish he'd write the books for goodness sake. So it's just a reminder that I'm never going to get to finish this dang series.  )


Ya, I believe GRRM made some statement lately related to how he is not involved in the TV series as much in order to get book 6 done and based on that statement and general book release schedules late 2016 was estimated. Forgive me, but the full story was getting a little spoilery so that's as far as I went, I primarily mentioned it to emphasize that 6 was still to be released.

I empathize with you, with all the cliffhangers its hard to wait, I'm rereading book 4 now while waiting. I just hope he gets certain storylines to us before the TV series tells us that those storylines are of no importance.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

jakerock said:


> How would some people have any clue about that? That's 18 months away. He doesn't make any sort of predictable progress on his GoT books (he writes other stuff and releases it faster). So predicting GoT book releases that far ahead is pure speculation and annoying. (Because I wish he'd write the books for goodness sake. So it's just a reminder that I'm never going to get to finish this dang series.  )


I believe he said that he wanted book 6 out before season 6 started. Whether that actually happens or not is anyone's guess.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Please note I'm not disagreeing with anyone here about the release dates. I'm just expressing my annoyance at GRRM for not actually getting it done. I don't trust that he can deliver it either. Or I guess I should say I don't trust that he will deliver it. I think he could if he just did the work.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

If you are like me and can't wait for next week, check out this Sesame Street "Game of Thrones" parody:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/06/sesame-street-game-thrones

My favorite line:


Spoiler



You choked, Jeoffry!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> And if you notice, I said no content from book 6 should be posted, but DavidJL thinks that the titles that have been released by GRRM are spoilers. I don't, and that's why we are where we are.


Chapter titles can be spoilers, at least of a sort.

Since some characters have "nicknames", or false names, just a change from whichever was used as the title of their most recent previous POV would reveal information. And has.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> No matter how polite it was, I was not happy to see that we set up this thread for those of us up to date on both, and on the first page we are still discussing spoilers. I thought that was the whole point of this thread--to avoid the need for the S word.


The problem, at least where the books are concerned, is how to define "up-to-date".

If you've read all 5 of the books released so far, *and* the chapters beyond those which have been released, are you "upper-to-date"?


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## abovethesink (Aug 26, 2013)

The chapter title debate is illogical. If you have read book five, you know who is alive. GRRM is not suddenly going to drop a chapter for someone left with an ambiguous fate like Jon or someone who was dead. The fact that Sansa has a chapter in book six is not s spoiler.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

It's been a while since I read book 5, but I remember thinking that it didn't leave much doubt that John is dead. It's just because it's GOT and we think there are bigger plans for John and we want him alive and we know GRRM....that there's any question. Or am I remembering wrong. (I hope)


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> It's been a while since I read book 5, but I remember thinking that it didn't leave much doubt that John is dead. It's just because it's GOT and we think there are bigger plans for John and we want him alive and we know GRRM....that there's any question. Or am I remembering wrong. (I hope)


I think you've got it right.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

If he's dead then how can he and Dany go on to rule Westeros? Unless you are thinking some sort of Prince Stoneheart scenario? Hmmm-- bet he could handle those dragons....


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> It's been a while since I read book 5, but I remember thinking that it didn't leave much doubt that John is dead. It's just because it's GOT and we think there are bigger plans for John and we want him alive and we know GRRM....that there's any question. Or am I remembering wrong. (I hope)


It seemed pretty clear to me that Jon died. But there is ample precedent in the story for people dying and then being up and about afterwards.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

john4200 said:


> It seemed pretty clear to me that Jon died. But there is ample precedent in the story for people dying and then being up and about afterwards.


It wasn't clear at all, imo. He survived 3 arrows from Ygritte and the way it has the light going out from Jon's POV is not uncommon in the books and doesn't mean that he's actually dead.

Also, GMM has indicated as much 


magazine said:


> ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
> GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he's dead, do you?


Also, Melisandre has visions of Jon beyond the scene

Also, GMM has ghosts (Catelyn Stark anyone?)

Also, others have been brought back to life (edit: had to look up the name I forgot - Berric Dondarrion - and Melisandre has the same power with the Lord of Light so could bring Jon back perhaps)

Also, he's one of my favorite characters so... oh shoot, that would mean that he might be dead 

So lessee, he was cut on the neck from Wick (but not too bad), then in the gut by Bowen (dagger) seemed deep/bad, then between the shoulder blades (dagger) seemed bad, then a fourth knife in an unknown place and he felt cold (never a good thing)...

Just re-read that scene and I still hate it!!


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Mellisandra is a Red priestess. Dondarrion brought that other guy back numerous times. John will be back.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Examples of how sample chapter titles could be spoilers would almost certainly be spoilers, so whoever's got the whip hand around here should rule sample chapters allowed or sample chapters, their titles, and the horses they rode in on disallowed.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Holy crap, if it comes from beyond book 5, it belongs in spoilers. End of line. How is that difficult?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Holy crap, if it comes from beyond book 5, it belongs in spoilers. End of line. How is that difficult?


Because that's not what the thread title says.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Yeah, I'm in this thread b/c it's all talk of all books being allowed. Book 6 has bits released already so those are fair game, imo. Once Book 6 is released, that should be part of this thread as well, since it's an "all books" thread. 

How is that difficult?


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm caught up! I started the books at the end of last season due to withdrawal symptoms, just finished this morning. I'm a "book person" now!

I'm wondering what they'll save for Episode 9 this season. Maybe the scenes from the fighting pits?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because that's not what the thread title says.


Yes and no. The new chapters aren't in a book (yet)!


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Can someone help me square TV vs book?

Does Jon dying happen in the books yet? I can't remember.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Can someone help me square TV vs book?
> 
> Does Jon dying happen in the books yet? I can't remember.


Yes toward the end of book 5. Third to the last chapter I believe.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Demandred said:


> Yes toward the end of book 5. Third to the last chapter I believe.


again, not *confirmed* dead in the books


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> again, not *confirmed* dead in the books


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DavidTigerFan said:


>


hey, i gotta hold out hope. Jon and Arya are two of my fav characters


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

pjenkins said:


> hey, i gotta hold out hope. Jon and Arya are two of my fav characters


Same. I think the majority of the fans have those two as favorites. I think this is how it's gonna play out:

Dany gets her head out of her ass with Tyrion's help and mounts an army to cross the narrow sea to take back the seven kingdoms. When she does she finds Stannis fighting the white walkers with Jon snow. Somehow she defeats/joins with stannis and they defeat the WW using her dragons. She then marches from the north to beat the snot out of the Lannisters with Tyrion's help.

All along, Arya has become a faceless man and starts going down her list, ending up on Cersei.

Not sure how the story plays out in the capital. I've started losing interest in the religious zealot guy takin gover.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I would hope Dany isn't so quick to embrace Tyrion or ally with Stannis since they represent the families that destroyed her family and took the throne.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> I would hope Dany isn't so quick to embrace Tyrion or ally with Stannis since they represent the families that destroyed her family and took the throne.


I think Tyrion will win her over with his hate for his own family. I mean, he did kill his father. Plus, I think with time, she will recognize how good of a strategist he is. He'd make an excellent Hand.

Stannis, I don't know. I doubt he'd accept her since he's been mad with power, but him having melisandre is the wild card. She could desert him when she sees that Dany has dragons (I mean, she worships fire and all that), but I think he's gonna end up dead somehow.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Show of hands, who here really thinks Jon will be dead at the start of book 6?

And I don't mean he is back alive like Berric. I mean just survives the attack.

:raises hand:


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Show of hands, who here really thinks Jon will be dead at the start of book 6?
> 
> And I don't mean he is back alive like Berric. I mean just survives the attack.
> 
> :raises hand:


I don't think he survives. I think Melisandre brings him back


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I don't think he survives. I think Melisandre brings him back


Agreed. The people stabbing him know would know that the one thing worse than killing your commander is almost killing your commander.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

We're not expecting this thread to handle each new episode discussion for Season 5, are we?


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

getreal said:


> We're not expecting this thread to handle each new episode discussion for Season 5, are we?


Specific episode discussion? No. There will be separate threads for each episode. However, discussion of the books (even how they compare to what happened in the episode) is forbidden in episode threads.

This thread will be to discuss the shows in context to the books (what was the same, what was different, and what is new)


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> hey, i gotta hold out hope. Jon and Arya are two of my fav characters


Jon and Arya are great, but Tyrion is my favorite. And I already went several days thinking he was dead when he fell in the river. 

I say Jon is alive, and I hope he's not crazy or evil.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

John is alive. I just saw him at a dinner party:


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

jakerock said:


> john is alive. I just saw him at a dinner party:


spoilers!


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> spoilers!


Sorry I forgot about where he talks about his mother.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

stellie93 said:


> Jon and Arya are great, but Tyrion is my favorite. And I already went several days thinking he was dead when he fell in the river.
> 
> I say Jon is alive, and I hope he's not crazy or evil.


Agreed, love Tyrion. I wish in the tv show they'd have found a way to do his deformed face better though, a small scar just doesn't do it justice.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Holy Westeros this is funny: http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/see-the-got-deaths.html


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

One thing I think I will enjoy is how quickly the showrunners are moving the Varys/Tyrion/Danaerys story. In the books, we spend chapter after chapter (which means a gazillion words) just dancing to get the players in the same part of the world.

Here, in one scene, Varys lays out the entire machinations of what he's been doing for 20 years. And has already talked about putting the three of them together, to plot.

I really enjoyed the books, but am thrilled to see how much more succinctly the showrunners are handling it.

I vote YES for action.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I am wondering why they are drawing out Jon Snow's election as Lord Commander. In the books that happened at the very end of Book 3 and well before they killed "Mance".


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

TriBruin said:


> I am wondering why they are drawing out Jon Snow's election as Lord Commander. In the books that happened at the very end of Book 3 and well before they killed "Mance".


They probably want to squeeze as much time out of Kit Harrington as possible before Jon dies.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> They probably want to squeeze as much time out of Kit Harrington as possible before Jon dies.


If dead is dead. Which is never a given in GoT!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I am wondering why they are drawing out Jon Snow's election as Lord Commander. In the books that happened at the very end of Book 3 and well before they killed "Mance".


I don't think non-book readers are ready yet. They don't see the election between the other two as a big deal yet, and they certainly aren't aware of You Know Nothing winning as the dark horse candidate. They need to do a little more plot prep work to get ready for that. Which can be one good scene, as fast as they work.

Plus, the arrow mercy killing of Mance was necessary to setup YKN as a moral hero.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

S5E01 clearly implicated Cersei for arranging Robert's hunting accident. I don't remember that from the books, did it happen?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

dtivouser said:


> S5E01 clearly implicated Cersei for arranging Robert's hunting accident. I don't remember that from the books, did it happen?


yep.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

dtivouser said:


> S5E01 clearly implicated Cersei for arranging Robert's hunting accident. I don't remember that from the books, did it happen?


Pretty sure Cersei admits as much to Ned in the garden.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think I'm going to watch the episodes as they show up and then re-watch when they actually air. So far I've seen 1 and 2 and I can't remember which was which. I don't want to get into spoiler trouble. 

Confused about the death of Mance--wasn't he still alive in the books? Was he "burned" there? 

Can't think who YKN is


----------



## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

stellie93 said:


> Can't think who YKN is


"You Know Nothing" Jon Snow


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I think I'm going to watch the episodes as they show up and then re-watch when they actually air. So far I've seen 1 and 2 and I can't remember which was which. I don't want to get into spoiler trouble.
> 
> Confused about the death of Mance--wasn't he still alive in the books? Was he "burned" there?
> 
> Can't think who YKN is


Mance was alive and smuggled off somewhere. Here's a great article on why the show kills him off:

Vanity Fair article



> A very similar scene takes place in the George R.R. Martin's books including the roasting and the arrow. But on the page, it's one of Rayder's lieutenants, Rattleshirt (Edward Dogliani), who dies. Melisandre glamours Rattleshirt to look like Mance and Mance to look like Rattleshirt and Jon, not knowing Mance is dead, starts training with Mance in disguise. We know there's no glamouring going on here because Rattleshirt hasn't been seen on the show since Season 3. And while it's possible they could swap Rattleshirt out for a different character (I'm looking at you, Tormund), I believe Mance died for real tonight.


I especially agree with this part:



> Martin's fourth and and fifth novels could have used a lot of editing. That's essentially what Weiss and Benioff are doing here. They've obviously gotten rid of the whole plot with Mance Rayder's baby (so, apparently, that book story line doesn't pay off in a significant way)


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Where the hell was Sansa and Littlefinger heading? They stay at the Erie in the books. I always thought Littlefinger was going to form an army up there, but if he's gone from the Aerie in the show, that plot must not matter.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Where are they on the show? I remember a big deal about them coming down the mountain in the books, but I don't remember where they went after that. 

When episode 1 started, I wondered If I had the wrong show. Couldn't figure out who any of those people were.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Where the hell was Sansa and Littlefinger heading? They stay at the Erie in the books. I always thought Littlefinger was going to form an army up there, but if he's gone from the Aerie in the show, that plot must not matter.


Possible that the show may be using Sansa in place of Jeyne Poole and they're heading to Winterfell.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Possible that the show may be using Sansa in place of Jeyne Poole and they're heading to Winterfell.


But Jeyne impersonated Arya. All the winterfell people would recognize Sansa


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> But Jeyne impersonated Arya. All the winterfell people would recognize Sansa


Right, and Sansa will just be Sansa and marry Ramsay.

Just a guess.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> Right, and Sansa will just be Sansa and marry Ramsay.
> 
> Just a guess.


But then Sansa would have the claim to Winterfell. They impersonated Arya because they wanted a Stark that wouldn't fight the boltons for control.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Goodnight Westeros


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Wow, several changes from the books in the season premier. The show will be spoiling the books for real in coming weeks.


----------



## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Wow, several changes from the books in the season premier. The show will be spoiling the books for real in coming weeks.


I don't remember the Tyrion storyline from book 4 that well. Was it the same this week? Are we still going to see Prince Aegon or do you think they'll leave that character out and give his plot to Danaerys?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

As I remember it, Tyrion first goes for a boat ride with Aegon, gets captured by Jorah and then enslaved with Penny. And of course in the books, Varys stayed behind in the capital.

Maybe Tyrion and Varys go for a boat ride with Aegon. We'll have to wait and see, but I'll bet the prince from Dorne that gets roasted by the dragon is cut for sure along with Penny & her pets.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Demandred said:


> I don't remember the Tyrion storyline from book 4 that well. Was it the same this week? Are we still going to see Prince Aegon or do you think they'll leave that character out and give his plot to Danaerys?


Yeah I think the stupid plot with Tyrion getting captured by slavers along with Jorah gets cut. At this rate, I'm questioning whether Aegon will even make it in the series. He technically has no claim as Dany is still alive, so I wonder what GRRM has in mind for him in the books.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> At this rate, I'm questioning whether Aegon will even make it in the series. He technically has no claim as Dany is still alive, so I wonder what GRRM has in mind for him in the books.


??? It's the other way around...Daeny has no claim while Aegon is alive. He is the son of the heir of the last Targaryen king.

The only reason she's in the position she's in is because nobody knows he's still alive.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

If Aegon really is Rhaegar's son, and not a fake, why wouldn't he have more claim than Dany? The son of the son of the King comes before the daughter of the King.


ETA: late


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ahh, sorry, I forgot the lineage. I remembered that she was his aunt and thought she had the direct line.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

3 Dragons. 3 Targaeryns. That math seems pretty straightforward.

And seems to support L+R=J.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

heySkippy said:


> As I remember it, Tyrion first goes for a boat ride with Aegon, gets captured by Jorah and then enslaved with Penny. And of course in the books, Varys stayed behind in the capital.
> 
> Maybe Tyrion and Varys go for a boat ride with Aegon. We'll have to wait and see, but I'll bet the prince from Dorne that gets roasted by the dragon is cut for sure along with Penny & her pets.


But we're seeing a lot of Dorne, so maybe he will make an appearance. Always fun to see someone burned by a dragon. I don't remember--did the dragons get free when that happened?

Penny I can do without, unless she has some big mission later on.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Very funny: 




At about the 4 minute mark, Jon nearly spoils a very major potential plot line.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

TriBruin said:


> I am wondering why they are drawing out Jon Snow's election as Lord Commander. In the books that happened at the very end of Book 3 and well before they killed "Mance".


Well, that escalated quickly.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Well, this thread looks like it's quickly becoming obsolete. Lets see if we can track the changes from the books:

Jaime going to Dorne
Jaime enlisting Tyrion's old sellsword. (not sure of name)
Littlefinger and Sansa leaving the eyrie
Brienne finding Sansa and little finger


With Jon getting elected lord commander this early in the season, I'm thinking he'll "die" in the season finale.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Well, this thread looks like it's quickly becoming obsolete. Lets see if we can track the changes from the books:
> 
> Jaime going to Dorne
> Jaime enlisting Tyrion's old sellsword. (not sure of name)
> ...


I think the thread will still be useful. No one wants to hear how it happened in the books, so we can discuss all changes here. Brienne has now found both Arya and Sansa, and both of them have told her to **** off. Pod's right, she should just move on.

One wonders, if Ned Stark was told in a prophecy that going to King's Landing would mean his death, the downfall of House Stark, his five youngest children being spread to the four winds, his eldest child and wife and unborn grandchild brutally murdered, and the nation descending into chaos, if he still would have gone anyway out of his sense of duty and honor.

Somehow, I think he would.


----------



## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Jaime enlisting Tyrion's old sellsword. (not sure of name)


Bronn


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> With Jon getting elected lord commander this early in the season, I'm thinking he'll "die" in the season finale.


So we will be past book 5 next season? Can't wait. Hope you're right. :up:
(also hope you're right about the quotes)

In the other thread, they are emphasizing that the Faceless Men are assassins. I never think of them that way. Is that their main focus?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> In the other thread, they are emphasizing that the Faceless Men are assassins. I never think of them that way. Is that their main focus?


Yes. They are an assassin's guild that charges exorbitant prices. In the first book, during (I believe) Eddard's first meeting of the Small Council, they are discussing whether to hire a faceless man to take out Dany, Littlefinger objects, saying you could hire an army of sellswords for half the price.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I was so focussed on the scene being new from the book that it didn't even occur to me that it might have been nice if Brienne gave Sansa a heads up that her sister was alive and well.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

The Crossroads Inn sure sees a lot of action...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtivouser said:


> The Crossroads Inn sure sees a lot of action...


The owner must have made a deal with the Devil...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> The Crossroads Inn sure sees a lot of action...


Location, location, location.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The owner must have made a deal with the Devil...


:up:


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The owner must have made a deal with the Devil...





jehma said:


> :up:


Or at least a crossroads demon....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Or at least a crossroads demon....


But the crossroads demon is just negotiating on the Devil's behalf...


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Possible that the show may be using Sansa in place of Jeyne Poole and they're heading to Winterfell.





DavidTigerFan said:


> But Jeyne impersonated Arya. All the winterfell people would recognize Sansa





cherry ghost said:


> Right, and Sansa will just be Sansa and marry Ramsay.
> 
> Just a guess.





DavidTigerFan said:


> But then Sansa would have the claim to Winterfell. They impersonated Arya because they wanted a Stark that wouldn't fight the boltons for control.


I wish I had been wrong. I don't like this change at all.


----------



## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> I wish I had been wrong. I don't like this change at all.


I love it. I don't know where Sansa's story is going on the book but I'm happy to see her at least get some screentime.


----------



## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yes. They are an assassin's guild that charges exorbitant prices. In the first book, during (I believe) Eddard's first meeting of the Small Council, they are discussing whether to hire a faceless man to take out Dany, Littlefinger objects, saying you could hire an army of sellswords for half the price.


Your reading comprehension goes to 11! How do remember things like that?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> I wish I had been wrong. I don't like this change at all.


It's too early to comment on the effect of the change, but my gut tells me this is a smart move.

Pure conjecture: GRRM spent a ton of words on the machinations of the Bolton/Winterfell/marriage story lines. Chapter after chapter, and we still have no idea where it leads. He'll probably spend another dozen chapters on it before we finally get to his ultimate goal/point. Which may or may not have anything to do with the endpoint of the series. As a book, this is fine. Readers read, and enjoy the journey.

But for the TV series, not only do the showrunners not have near enough time to follow all this, it ultimately (probably) doesn't matter, and almost certainly only serves to confuse viewers. The TV series has done what seems to be an excellent job of condensing these books into a manageable story, moving stories along much more quickly than the books do. Leaving out gobs of extraneous material makes for a much more watchable show.

Again, we don't know where this plot line leads, so it's hard to say what effect this change will cause. But I got faith. And anything that keeps Sansa in the spotlight is better than the alternative.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> I wish I had been wrong. I don't like this change at all.


Well, this tells me that GRRM has told the show runners that the plan all along is for a stark to be back at winterfell. In the books there's an imposter there, but I'm guessing it will become moot in future story lines because the Boltons will get run out. Most likely with Ramsey getting killed in the show. Either way, the only way the Boltons stay at winterfell would be if Tommen remains king (which we all know isn't going to happen).


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I like the idea that I don't know what is going to happen. 

I did like the part where Theon stepped up and tried to save Jane. I hope they work him into the endgame somewhere. Hopefully Littlefinger plans on saving Sansa somehow-- hopefully before she loses too much skin.  

The relationship between Tommen and his wife is different from the books. There she treated him more like a younger brother if I remember correctly. I like this better. 

Where's Griff? He surely isn't expendable. 

I'm still confused about the House of Black and White. I thought in the books they had people coming there to die--was that what happened to the guy who drank from the fountain. People who were sick or felt guilty about something. I didn't get that they did the assassinations. Is that just another branch? 

I still can't decide if the Red God thing is good guys or bad guys. Maybe the Red Lady has just corrupted what seems to be a good religion everywhere else????


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Sansa going to Winterfell instead of Jeyne Poole tells me that whatever GRRM told the show runners about her story in the books, it's ultimately not important to the overall ending.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> Sansa going to Winterfell instead of Jeyne Poole tells me that whatever GRRM told the show runners about her story in the books, it's ultimately not important to the overall ending.


Not necessarily...just how she gets there. For all we know, Sansa saves the world from Winterfell, but Martin is just dicking around for a few thousand more pages until she gets there.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Have the show watchers been given enough information to make this leap yet? Some folks are saying they believe it now based on last night's show. 

I honestly don't feel like the show has given enough clues yet that this is the case.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Not even close to being enough yet, imo.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm not sure if you mean is there enough information for people to conclude for certain, or enough to speculate on.

Certainly not for the former (not even in the books), and apparently so on the latter.

In the latest episode, there were hints that Jon's mother might not be who she was previously said to be.

If you also speculate that Ned would be too honorable to father a bastard, then you have to ask why Ned would pretend to be Jon's father.

One possible answer is that Jon could be Robert's. But there was a scene early on with Ned and Robert that showed Robert was certainly not Jon's father (at least Robert did not know it, if so).

So what other reason could there be for Ned to pretend to be Jon's father? Well, what if Jon were his sister Lyanna's son? Then Ned might want to hide and protect Jon by pretending he is his son. And if Lyanna is the mother, who might the father be? The latest episode gave a clue to that in Sansa's discussion with Littlefinger -- Lyanna apparently spent time alone with Rhaegar.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> I'm not sure if you mean is there enough information for people to conclude for certain, or enough to speculate on.
> 
> Certainly not for the former (not even in the books), and apparently so on the latter.
> 
> ...


I follow on the logic of why the theory exists.

My question is, has the show ever put an emphasis on Jon's parentage since the few references to it in the first season?

Last night would be the first since the first season, no? For someone, who watches only the show, to make that leap would be especially intuitive since you have to be in the mindset that Ned was not Jon's father, when Ned himself claims him as son on the show and has never indicated otherwise. Lyanna has barely been talked about, and how many show watchers remember the name of Dany's older dead brother that has never been seen on screen?

Not impossible, but it always catches my eye when someone who does not participate in this thread presents information that is too on the nose.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And from a TV-writing perspective, the fact that they're bringing up Rhaegar (as a nicer guy than previously suspected), Lyanna, their relationship, and the suspicious nature of Ned's claim to be Jon's father, all at the same time, lends some support to the theory...


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And from a TV-writing perspective, the fact that they're bringing up Rhaegar (as a nicer guy than previously suspected), Lyanna, their relationship, and the suspicious nature of Ned's claim to be Jon's father, all at the same time, lends some support to the theory...


Agreed.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Last night would be the first since the first season, no? For someone, who watches only the show, to make that leap would be especially intuitive since you have to be in the mindset that Ned was not Jon's father, when Ned himself claims him as son on the show and has never indicated otherwise. Lyanna has barely been talked about, and how many show watchers remember the name of Dany's older dead brother that has never been seen on screen?


You lost me again. Are you asking whether someone might have speculated on it BEFORE the latest episode?

Because AFTER this episode would seem a logical time for people to speculate on it, since the episode cast doubt on Jon's parentage, and the episode had a long scene about Lyanna and Rhaegar.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I think that Ned casting aside his wedding vows and fathering a bastard, standing alone, is so far out of character as to raise questions as to Jon's true lineage. Tying that lineage to Rhaegar, however, requires much more thought and a much more careful examination of the smallest of clues (but clues that were nevertheless present to discerning viewers). Personally, I could not have come to the Rhaegar theory on my own, at least until last night, if I were just a television viewer who didn't read the books. That said, once you accept that Ned is lying, and that he also would not lie without good reason, you're left to ponder what reason would be good enough for Ned to not only tell a lie, but one that no doubt tore his wife's heart out. Protecting his sister's child from Robert, who was continuing to hunt down and murder every Targaryen, would certainly qualify as a worthy reason for Ned to act in ways that such an honorable man would otherwise condemn.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I didn't figure it out even from reading the books--someone had to point me in the right direction.  But I'm a little slow.....

I know they said in the books that Ned emphatically told Jon he is a Stark in blood if not in name. Don't remember that from the show, but if you don't think Ned could be his father, that narrows the list for mother considerably. The second time I read the books, when I actually knew that the tournament at Harrenhal was important, I got it, but since I had already read the theory from someone else, I can't claim credit.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

As Ned was leaving for Kings Landing, in the TV show, he had a similar conversation with Jon Snow, telling him he'd tell him about his mother "when they next had a conversation", and that he definitely had Stark blood and that was all he needed to know.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Ereth said:


> As Ned was leaving for Kings Landing, in the TV show, he had a similar conversation with Jon Snow, telling him he'd tell him about his mother "when they next had a conversation", and that he definitely had Stark blood and that was all he needed to know.


I've thought that John Snow was Lyanna Starks' child from Rhaegar. Rhaegar took her to Dorne IIRC after taking her away before Robert could marry her. Although it would be interesting if he were actually not Danny's nephew and instead her older brother, maybe the mad king impregnated Lyanna and commanded Rhaegar to take her to Dorne....


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Not a book reader, but I have a question.

If Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, do we know for sure it was rape? Or did they possibly fall in love with each other?

I'm not sure how much of Lyanna's time with Rhaegar is discussed in the books, if any. 

Second question: Let's say that he is in fact their child. What would motivate Ned to hide that fact? Is it because he thought Robert would kill the child if he thought he was a Targaryen?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Jstkiddn said:


> Not a book reader, but I have a question.
> 
> If Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, do we know for sure it was rape? Or did they possibly fall in love with each other?
> 
> I'm not sure how much of Lyanna's time with Rhaegar is discussed in the books, if any.


We don't know, that part is not flushed out in the books.



Jstkiddn said:


> Second question: Let's say that he is in fact their child. What would motivate Ned to hide that fact? Is it because he thought Robert would kill the child if he thought he was a Targaryen?


That would be my guess, Robert was madly in love with Lyanna and hated the Targaryens so no way he lets John Snow live if that's the case.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Didn't Robert have all Targaryens hunted and killed anyway, regardless of whether Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child? Isn't that why Viserys and Dany were in exile on Essos in the first place?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Not a book reader, but I have a question.
> 
> If Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, do we know for sure it was rape? Or did they possibly fall in love with each other?
> 
> I'm not sure how much of Lyanna's time with Rhaegar is discussed in the books, if any.


Very little is known of what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Thus, either is a distinct possibility.



Jstkiddn said:


> Second question: Let's say that he is in fact their child. What would motivate Ned to hide that fact? Is it because he thought Robert would kill the child if he thought he was a Targaryen?


Yes, but there are other factors. Robert would have had Jon killed had he thought he was a Targaryen, but if Jon is the son of Rhaegar/Lyanna, Robert might have had even more of a vendetta against him, since Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. Further, Ned made an unknown promise to Lyanna on her deathbed. That promise may well have been to hide the child's true identity/parentage.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That promise may well have been to hide the child's true identity/parentage.


And/or to raise him as his own.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

3D said:


> And/or to raise him as his own.


If this wind up being true, then poor Ned! Can you imagine the scorn he took from Catelyn and all the while he's just trying to be a good guy? Being blamed for something he didn't do?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Very little is known of what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Thus, either is a distinct possibility.


If they eloped, that would certainly change things!


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

3D said:


> And/or to raise him as his own.


Yep. I meant to say that as well.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> If this wind up being true, then poor Ned! Can you imagine the scorn he took from Catelyn and all the while he's just trying to be a good guy? Being blamed for something he didn't do?


For a man who apparently placed his honor above all else, it must have been particularly painful. And by all accounts he truly loved Catelyn and was devoted to her, and that placed a schism between them as well.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> If Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, do we know for sure it was rape? Or did they possibly fall in love with each other?


There are several oblique, but no definitive, references to that question. In most of them, it appears that Rhaegar and Lyanna were quite smitten with one another.

Rhaegar is almost always portrayed as a good man, unlike the Mad King, and though Robert struck him down, he was quite a warrior. And he openly embarassed his wife by giving the crown to Lyanna at the festival at Harrenhal, though that story in the book is told to Bran by Meera and Jojen and is even more oblique than usual, being couched almost in code, referring to nobody by name, only by decipherable descriptions ("she-wolf" for instance).

The Tournament at Harrenhal is the key to everything, in my mind, and why it's only referenced obliquely, and never with a full on description. Martin hints, but never says, and intrigues us all the more by doing so.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Ereth said:


> In most of them, it appears that Rhaegar and Lyanna were quite smitten with one another.


I hope so. If he does wind up being their child, I would hate for it to due to a rape. I would hate that for Jon. I want him to be told that his parents loved each other.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> I hope so. If he does wind up being their child, I would hate for it to due to a rape. I would hate that for Jon. I want him to be told that his parents loved each other.


Then again, since GRRM seems to hate everybody...


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> I hope so. If he does wind up being their child, I would hate for it to due to a rape. I would hate that for Jon. I want him to be told that his parents loved each other.


There's only one person alive who might know the truth.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> There's only one person alive who might know the truth.


My brain is toast this afternoon. Who would that person be?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> My brain is toast this afternoon. Who would that person be?


Possibly someone who seems to hate everybody?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Possibly someone who seems to hate everybody?


Well, that was certainly helpful.  

Remember? Toast brain? And there is an awful lot of hate flowing around Westeros. It would be hard to narrow it down to one choice.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> My brain is toast this afternoon. Who would that person be?


Meera and Jojen Reed's father, Howland.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Very little is known of what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Thus, either is a distinct possibility.


The way it is described, I don't see how she didn't go with him voluntarily. If he came up to her in front of everyone and carried her off, surely she could have fought him off until Robert or someone came and saved her. I think the kidnapping thing was just something people said to sooth Robert's ego after he was King. 



DreadPirateRob said:


> For a man who apparently placed his honor above all else, it must have been particularly painful. And by all accounts he truly loved Catelyn and was devoted to her, and that placed a schism between them as well.


I remember it more like they barely knew each other before the war--they hadn't been married very long, and hadn't Cat wanted to marry Ned's brother? I thought that the marriage became a love match later after he came back in spite of Jon.



Ereth said:


> The Tournament at Harrenhal is the key to everything, in my mind, and why it's only referenced obliquely, and never with a full on description. Martin hints, but never says, and intrigues us all the more by doing so.


It would be cool if they went back after the series is over and did a prequel showing the tournament at Harranhal and a brief synopsis of the war that followed. :up:



cherry ghost said:


> Meera and Jojen Reed's father, Howland.


Is he alive?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> The way it is described, I don't see how she didn't go with him voluntarily. If he came up to her in front of everyone and carried her off, surely she could have fought him off until Robert or someone came and saved her.
> 
> Is he alive?


Lyanna running off with or being kidnapped by Rhaegar didn't happen until some time after the tourney at Harrenhal.

Yes


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> The way it is described, I don't see how she didn't go with him voluntarily. If he came up to her in front of everyone and carried her off, surely she could have fought him off until Robert or someone came and saved her. I think the kidnapping thing was just something people said to sooth Robert's ego after he was King.


As cherry ghost points out above, the kidnapping/running away together didn't happen at Harrenhal, but later. But I do think that it is more likely that she was a willing participant, for a few reasons. One, she was a Stark, and was quite formidable (i.e. known as the "she-wolf"), and also was not thrilled about her betrothal to Robert since she knew he wouldn't be faithful to her. And two, Rhaegar doesn't seem the kidnapping/raping type based on what other anecdotal evidence we have from the books (and now the show).



stellie93 said:


> I remember it more like they barely knew each other before the war--they hadn't been married very long, and hadn't Cat wanted to marry Ned's brother? I thought that the marriage became a love match later after he came back in spite of Jon.


You are correct. I should have been more clear - what I meant to convey but did not elaborate further was that the notion that he would have cheated on his new wife so soon after the marriage - whether they barely knew each other or not - as well as the continued presence of Jon at Winterfell throughout the rest of their marriage (which was always a source of tension between them even though they seem to have had probably the "best" marriage that we have seen represented in the entire GoT universe) must have been tough for a man of principle such as Ned to endure quietly.



stellie93 said:


> Is he alive?


As far as we know, yes, but he doesn't leave the swamplands of the Neck. He sent his kids Meera and Jojen to Winterfell announce they were with Robb.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> Not a book reader, but I have a question.
> 
> If Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, do we know for sure it was rape? Or did they possibly fall in love with each other?
> 
> ...


A lot of quotes from the books supporting various theories on Jon's parents.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

You can get a sense of what Rhaegar was like from a few of the quotes in the third theory, as viewed by his friends and enemies.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> A lot of quotes from the books supporting various theories on Jon's parents.
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html
> 
> You can get a sense of what Rhaegar was like from a few of the quotes in the third theory, as viewed by his friends and enemies.


Great info! Thanks for the link. Very interesting.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

My friends and I who have read the books always joke that because they are written so slowly, GRRM actually got this idea from fan forums. Ha!

Now that it's being pushed in the show as well, it seems like it's a real thing. 

Here is the question though. Three dragons. The believed third is not in the show. So who is the third?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

mostman said:


> Here is the question though. Three dragons. The believed third is not in the show. So who is the third?


Yet. Not in the show yet. 

(Unless it's been confirmed that character has been cut out, then I have no idea.)


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yet. Not in the show yet.
> 
> (Unless it's been confirmed that character has been cut out, then I have no idea.)


Nobody was cast. For him or those dudes on the boat with him. But your point stands.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

mostman said:


> My friends and I who have read the books always joke that because they are written so slowly, GRRM actually got this idea from fan forums. Ha!
> 
> Now that it's being pushed in the show as well, it seems like it's a real thing.
> 
> Here is the question though. Three dragons. The believed third is not in the show. So who is the third?


Griff is a red herring.

Look up A+J=T if you want to have your mind ****ed.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Look up A+J=T if you want to have your mind ****ed.


Dumbest theory ever.


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

shaunnick said:


> griff is a red herring.
> 
> Look up a+j=t if you want to have your mind ****ed.


a+j=t?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

whoknows55 said:


> a+j=t?


Aerys+Joanne=Tyrion.

There is some evidence to support Tyrion is a Targaryen. It is a stretch, but it would provide the third dragon if true.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Is this the Mad King and Tywin's wife? Is there any mention of him doing this kind of thing? Like Robert wouldn't be surprising. Usually if a King sleeps around, you hear about it.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

It's just silliness. Ignore it.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Agreed. If there were any truth to it at all, Tywin would have killed Tyrion.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

More than that, Tyrion as written in the books and portrayed in the series is very obviously Tywin's son. More so than Jamie in every respect except stature.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> More than that, Tyrion as written in the books and portrayed in the series is very obviously Tywin's son. More so than Jamie in every respect except stature.


But that goes back to the nature vs. nurture question. Isn't it possible that a dwarf baby that was raised by (and around) Tywin, could end up learning a lot of the leadership skills and political savvy of Tywin, regardless of who the biological father was?

(Not saying I support that other theory. Just saying that most of Tyrion's Tywin-like traits are necessarily because of genetics.)


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Jaime's aunt alludes to Joanne and Aerys getting it on, but she insinuates to Jaime that it is he and Cersei that are the spawn of Aerys, not Tyrion.

Rumors of Tyrion birth mention a scaly tail that was chopped off at Tywin's request. Aerys had a malformed daughter that was born with a scaly tail (she died) and so did Dany's baby.

There are other hints here and there. I think it unlikely just because Tyrion's relationship with his father (Jaime and Cersei, too) are all just too rich for one of them to be a bastard child of Aerys. Plus if R+L=J is true, which is much more likely, it would be silly to have another illegitimate child out there secretly unknown to anyone.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It might be the kind of thing where GRRM had it in mind at the beginning, but as the characters developed abandoned the idea...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It might be the kind of thing where GRRM had it in mind at the beginning, but as the characters developed abandoned the idea...


True, but if Griff's absence from the show means he's a red herring, who else could be the third missing dragon? Not saying I buy the theory, and to tell the truth I had never heard it until this discussion, but I'm not sure why everyone is so dismissive of it.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Another interesting thought is that scene where (?) was telling (?) about the dragon skulls at King's Landing. Didn't they say that the last of the dragons were stunted and no bigger than a dog? Dwarf dragons, perhaps? A possible hint about Tyrion?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Someone made a Google-maps-like GoT map 

http://mashable.com/2015/05/07/westeros-google-maps/


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I just can't understand where the show is going with the King's Landing plotline. It's completely different than the books. For Sansa I can see where GRRM might have gotten her where she is now in the next book or something, but I don't see how the Cersei plotline ever comes back to the book plot at this point. She's done plenty of things the religious would arrest her for but none of them can be proven, and there isn't even anyone to accuse her as far as I can see. Maybe they'll just skip that entire plotline, but what about Margaery? She's actually guilty in the show, whereas she was innocent of the accusation against her in the books.

Most of the rest of the changes I can see how they'll kind of end up where the need to get, but this one stumps me.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

madscientist said:


> I don't see how the Cersei plotline ever comes back to the book plot at this point. She's done plenty of things the religious would arrest her for but none of them can be proven, and there isn't even anyone to accuse her as far as I can see.


She had Lancel Lannister keep Robert constantly drunk (possibly with poisoned wine, I don't remember the details) on his final hunting trip where he was ultimately mortally gored by the boar. After Robert's death and Jaime joining their father on the battlefield, she also began a physical relationship with Lancel.

Now that Lancel is one of the Sparrows, he will almost certainly turn on her and reveal all that he knows about Cersei.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

At some point Loras needs to be seriously injured in order to match the books. Maybe he'll choose trial by combat. 

Margaery, while most likely innocent of all charges in the books, is still awaiting trial by judges of the Faith. Maybe she'll still be found guilty in the books. 

I'm not liking their handling of Dorne. 

They really blew it last week with the depiction of Valyria.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I just can't understand where the show is going with the King's Landing plotline. It's completely different than the books. For Sansa I can see where GRRM might have gotten her where she is now in the next book or something, but I don't see how the Cersei plotline ever comes back to the book plot at this point. She's done plenty of things the religious would arrest her for but none of them can be proven, and there isn't even anyone to accuse her as far as I can see. Maybe they'll just skip that entire plotline, but what about Margaery? She's actually guilty in the show, whereas she was innocent of the accusation against her in the books.
> 
> Most of the rest of the changes I can see how they'll kind of end up where the need to get, but this one stumps me.


Maybe you and I have a different recollection,but I see much similarity between the book and the show with regards to the King's Landing story. Lancel will likely be her accuser. He is a sparrow and had sex with her. previously. And (slight spoiler for the TV show):

It was revealed in the HBO special shown before the season started that


Spoiler



Cersei would be walking naked through King's Landing, so we know she will be arrested.



I don't know how Margarey will be released, but maybe Loras' squire will recant and accuse Cersei of forcing him to testify against Loras and Margarey. (That would be similar to what happened in the books as well.)

It is a little "funny" (not sure that is the right word), but reading the comments in main episode thread about how brutal Sansa's rape scene was, but my first thought was "I am SO glad they didn't follow the book there."


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> Maybe you and I have a different recollection,but I see much similarity between the book and the show with regards to the King's Landing story. Lancel will likely be her accuser. He is a sparrow and had sex with her. previously. And (slight spoiler for the TV show): It was revealed in the HBO special shown before the season started that * SPOILER * I don't know how Margarey will be released, but maybe Loras' squire will recant and accuse Cersei of forcing him to testify against Loras and Margarey. (That would be similar to what happened in the books as well.) It is a little "funny" (not sure that is the right word), but reading the comments in main episode thread about how brutal Sansa's rape scene was, but my first thought was "I am SO glad they didn't follow the book there."


 in regards to the fake arya ?


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> in regards to the fake arya ?


More to that fact that Theon/Reek was forced by Ramsey to participate in the Sex/Rape against "Fake Arya."


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

One thing that we definitely lose in translation from the book to the screen is the ability to follow the line of thought for many of our characters. The biggest example is Cersei. In the book, it is quite amusing how smart she really thinks she is. She comes up with a plan, then congratulates herself on brilliant she is. Also, we can see how she basically convinces herself that her own fantasies are actual true. (She starts out be scheming to falsely accuse Margarey of fornication, but she ends up convinced that the accusations are true by the end.) 

I am not sure that Cersei's stupidity is showing the same on screen. I think she is coming off much more intelligent on screen.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> I am not sure that Cersei's stupidity is showing the same on screen. I think she is coming off much more intelligent on screen.


I don't think so at all. The only difference is, in the book we have Martin constantly telling us "She's not as smart as she thinks she is." Here, we have to figure it out for ourselves. But given her actions that's not much of a challenge, and let's face it...we're pretty smart ourselves.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Ah, I forgot about Lancel... but it's weird to me that if he's going to accuse her, he hasn't done so already. I mean, he's a fanatic: what's he waiting for? Or, maybe he already did accuse her but the sparrows are waiting for some reason. Is it true they haven't cleared Margaery in the books? I can't remember. Since her accuser recanted and they obviously believed him, what's left?

In the TV show she's clearly guilty, which is actually a big change. If the squire does recant I'm sure it will be some machination by Oleanna that does it. Or, maybe she'll just have him killed so he can't testify: with no witnesses can the trial go forward? Or do they just admit the hearsay from the hearing? I guess we'll find out.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

In the books Margaery and her cousins have been released to Randyll Tarly but she's still awaiting trial.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

GRRM comments: http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Someone made an observation yesterday that I had not considered.

In the books, Jon Snow is stabbed, repeatedly, to what appears to be his death.

We all (mostly) assume he's not dead, or that Melisandre will bring him back. We won't know until the next book comes out.

But someone elsewhere commented that if Jon Snow dies, that releases him from his vows to the Nights Watch, which are only until death. If, in fact, R+L=J, and Jon Snow is actually Jon Targaryen, then that would free him up to marry his Aunt Danaerys, and have both Fire (Dany) and Ice (Jon) on the throne at the end of this cycle.

(Yeah, I know, icky, but is it worse than brother and sister marrying, which the Targaryens did for thousands of years?)


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he is fire and ice all by himself.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

True, but it doesn't set up a new Targaryen dynasty that way, does it?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Assuming that Jon is somehow raised from the dead, is he likely to be able to father children?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Assuming that Jon is somehow raised from the dead, is he likely to be able to father children?


A good point, counterbalanced by the fact that Danaerys can't have any children.

So that kind of destroys the whole "dynasty" thing, doesn't it?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I read this item on Vulture.com about a Game of Thrones casting call and what they speculate it might mean for S6. Book readers may find it interesting:

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/got-casting-announcement-winds-of-winter-hints.html


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Ereth said:


> True, but it doesn't set up a new Targaryen dynasty that way, does it?


Jon has to find another half-Targaryen half-Stark to do the dy-nasty with.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

john4200 said:


> If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he is fire and ice all by himself.


This is what I've always thought.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I read this item on Vulture.com about a Game of Thrones casting call and what they speculate it might mean for S6. Book readers may find it interesting:


Very interesting. I have no dread of spoilers at all any more--I've waited so long for the next book, that I'll take any tidbit of info I can find. I enjoyed the seasons when I read the books first better than the other way around, but it looks like I have no choice. It will be cool to have all new plot next season. :up:


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Well that was unexpected. 

I've always wondered why they made such a big deal about Valyrian steel in the books. I guess we have some idea now.

Also Jon was an idiot for not keeping a piece of dragonglass on him.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

A lot of people on Reddit are saying "the TV show just S$$# all over the books and I don't care".


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Holy crap!

The new Tapper Crapper from my giant Note 4


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

wedgecon said:


> A lot of people on Reddit are saying "the TV show just S$$# all over the books and I don't care".


I wasn't sure how I was going to feel when the show finally went a different direction from the books but I like it.

So assuming the wall is enchanted and can stop the walkers, what's to keep them from going around it?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

whoknows55 said:


> So assuming the wall is enchanted and can stop the walkers, what's to keep them from going around it?


We just learned white walkers can't swim. That's the only other way around the wall.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> We just learned white walkers can't swim. That's the only other way around the wall.


I'm not sure we know that. I think that head walker was just making a point to Jon.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

whoknows55 said:


> I'm not sure we know that. I think that head walker was just making a point to Jon.


You don't think he would have killed Jon if he could have?


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> You don't think he would have killed Jon if he could have?


I think there were a few points where they could have fought harder and didn't.

This was a "must win or else" battle for the crows. 
This was a leisurely walk in the park for the white walkers (no put intended).

If they can't cross water it severely limits their power (and therefore their threat to the "south").

I could be entirely wrong, I'm just spit-balling here.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> You don't think he would have killed Jon if he could have?


I'm thinking the head white walker saw Jon thinking he just scored a win by killing a WW, and that one WW showed Jon (and the viewers) what he was really up against. Juxtapose what happened north of the wall to the crap happening in Meereen and King's Landing and you realize how hopeless Jon must feel right now.

Damn politics.

The new Tapper Crapper from my giant Note 4


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

whoknows55 said:


> If they can't cross water it severely limits their power (and therefore their threat to the "south").


The point of The Wall is that it is there to stop the White Walkers (although it has been so long since they were a threat that the Night's Watch seems to think it was there to stop the Wildlings). There would be little point in building a wall if the walkers could just swim around it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

whoknows55 said:


> I'm not sure we know that. I think that head walker was just making a point to Jon.


Before the head guy came on the scene, the zombies were failing to pursue the humans into the water.

And I'd say any point that the zombies made to Jon (which he already knew) was vastly overshadowed by the point Jon made to the Zombie kings ("I can kill you").


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Before the head guy came on the scene, the zombies were failing to pursue the humans into the water.
> 
> And I'd say any point that the zombies made to Jon (which he already knew) was vastly overshadowed by the point Jon made to the Zombie kings ("I can kill you").


Dragon glass and dragon steel. That's all we have.

I do want to go re-read A Game of Thrones just for all of Old Nan's stories. Are they compiled somewhere?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I don't think they can cross water, but they can cross ice. As long as Winter heads south they can head south.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

whoknows55 said:


> I wasn't sure how I was going to feel when the show finally went a different direction from the books but I like it.


Is this a different direction, or just beyond the first five?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> I don't think they can cross water, but they can cross ice. As long as Winter heads south they can head south.


I agree.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Is this a different direction, or just beyond the first five?


I think it's mostly beyond. I think this battle was in the books but no main character was there to give an account of it. I think when the ships got back to The Wall, this was reported. Jon didn't go with the ships, in the books.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

I thought Wights were flammable? The hut with the dragonglass was on fire and they were still all over it.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think it's mostly beyond. I think this battle was in the books but no main character was there to give an account of it. I think when the ships got back to The Wall, this was reported. Jon didn't go with the ships, in the books.


 where in the books was this?


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think it's mostly beyond. I think this battle was in the books but no main character was there to give an account of it. I think when the ships got back to The Wall, this was reported. Jon didn't go with the ships, in the books.





DavidTigerFan said:


> where in the books was this?


_Some_ of this overlaps with what DWD had, but there's a substantial difference. Jon Snow sent Cotter Pyke to Hardhome to rescue wildlings that Mother Mole took there for refuge after Stannis' attack on Mance Rayder. Cotter Pyke got there after losing a bunch of ships and found most of the willdlings dead, others eating the dead, and they were so desperate they attacked Pyke.

For that matter, IIRC, there was a "rescue" of women and children from hardhome as well, but it turned out the rescuers were slavers from Essos. That overlapped with Arya's story.

There was planning of a land ranging to rescue Cotter Pyke's group, but that didn't yet materialize, due to Jon getting attacked by his own men.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

So, should we assume Ollie will be the one to stab/kill Jon upon his return? They are certainly telegraphing him doing something awful soon. That may be season ender too.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I think at this point that is what is going to happen especially without the character from the books, Bowen Marsh, I think, being one of the ones to betray Jon having not appeared on screen yet.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> I think at this point that is what is going to happen especially without the character from the books, Bowen Marsh, I think, being one of the ones to betray Jon having not appeared on screen yet.


What I think is interesting is that we've all been speculating that in the books Melisandre will resurrect Jon since she and Stannis are still at the Wall. Now that the show has had them march off to Winterfell, I'm not sure how Jon is gonna stick around.

Other fan theories were that he wargs into Ghost, but I'm not sure I see that in the show because they haven't really shown him to have that ability.

If GRRM really does kill off Jon Snow, I think I'm done with the series and books. He just hasn't had anything redeeming other than to have Cersei imprisoned.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There's too much unresolved in Jon's story for him to die a permanent death now.

E.g., who exactly he is. And if he's dead, then who he is doesn't matter, so why build it up all these years?


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Stannis is no longer at the Wall, but he left Melisandre behind in the books. Also while resurrection power of the Fire god is used often in the books ( Cat, most prominent) it hasn't been used much in the show. Having Melisandre leave with Stannis was there to remove all ambiguity in Jon Snow's resurrection chances. If he survives, it's on his own misty likely.

Also it occurred to me that the scene before the battle with cold snowy winds coming down the mountain is essentially The Winds of Winter, book 6.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> So, should we assume Ollie will be the one to stab/kill Jon upon his return? They are certainly telegraphing him doing something awful soon. That may be season ender too.


Or it could be the opposite. After Ollie's talk with Sam, perhaps he sees the light. Then when Jon returns to Castle Black, the guy he left in charge (Alliser?) turns on Jon, but Ollie saves the day by arrowing him, just as he did Ygritte.

The producers are making this their own story, so they may change the "Jon is Dead" scene.



secondclaw said:


> Also it occurred to me that the scene before the battle with cold snowy winds coming down the mountain is essentially The Winds of Winter, book 6.


Good catch!


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Perhaps the producers are skipping the jon is dead plot because GRRM told them that he doesn't really die and that it was just a way for him to have a cliffhanger ending for DwD.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Perhaps the producers are skipping the jon is dead plot because GRRM told them that he doesn't really die and that it was just a way for him to have a cliffhanger ending for DwD.


Seems likely, imo


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Perhaps the producers are skipping the jon is dead plot because GRRM told them that he doesn't really die and that it was just a way for him to have a cliffhanger ending for DwD.


You got to admit that would be great WTF cliff hanger.

But, thinking back, I don't this show uses season ending cliff hangers. We usually get more of a "where this character is headed next".

For example last season:

Tyrion - In box headed to Bravvos

Arya - Headed to Bravvos

Sansa - Changed her appearance and took more control of her destiny.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I still want to know where Cold Hands fits in with the White Walkers. I kept thinking one of them might be a good guy. Or maybe since they left him out, he's not important.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I still want to know where Cold Hands fits in with the White Walkers. I kept thinking one of them might be a good guy. Or maybe since they left him out, he's not important.


 evidently he doesn't do much since he's not in the show anymore.


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## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

I just want the books now. This is going to be the first season end that I don't know what is happening next.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I have been reading back over the chapter synopses at awoiaf and one thing stood out to me that I believe the show is going to have to take into account.

Right now we have evidence that Rhyllor is real, or at least the magic related to him is real. In the books Melisandre declares that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn and as such wields Lightbringer. Lightbringer is a glowing sword that radiates heat and light. 

So far, there has been no mention of lightbringer in the show, but in the books it describes Stannis's sword as having the light, but not the heat. Insinuating that it's not really Lightbringer and thus Stannis isn't Azor Ahai reborn.

So, where is the plot with the red priests, melisandre, and stannis going?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I have here, in my hands, the Holy Grail, and I give it to you all.

Behold, a cross-referenced chart showing what chapters from the books have been covered in the show, and when.

This is my gift to you. Hope you have a free afternoon or three to read through it.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I have here, in my hands, the Holy Grail, and I give it to you all.
> 
> Behold, a cross-referenced chart showing what chapters from the books have been covered in the show, and when.
> 
> This is my gift to you. Hope you have a free afternoon or three to read through it.


Wow, that is greatness


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

It really shows how, through the first 3 seasons, the show and the book tracked almost directly. And then it all went nutso.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

To be fair, the last 2 books were weird anyway. Half the characters didn't even appear in each book. And they weren't great books. Basically they were doing 1-2 seasons per book and this time they did 2 books in one season. Tells you how meaty the other books were and how not the last two were.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I saw someone tweeting about those charts a couple days ago. Can't remember who it was.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

GRRM is unforgiving of the 'players' making tactical mistakes related to the Game and not doing whatever it takes to win.

Ned tried to do the honorable thing and save Cercei - dead
Rob tried to do something for love instead of duty - dead
Tywin, blinded by hate for his son instead of seeing him for valuable asset - dead.
Now Stannis refused to sacrifice his daughter to win the war - I bet he's not going to make it. The whole point of the sword in the book was to point out that he's not the one. Which of course makes me wonder what Melisanre's point was in pushing him on. She clearly knows the Lightbringer is fake. And I would bet Stannis will be done in by end of this season (don't really want him to though - really like the actor).

Technically Danny has made a number of strategic errors (like losing her advisers) which kinda makes me feel she won't 'win' either.
Cercei not going to make it - her blunders are epic (the Sparrows only the latest one).

Jon so far has made all the right moves, and so has Tyrion. My money's on them (Jon's cliffhanger aside).



DavidTigerFan said:


> I have been reading back over the chapter synopses at awoiaf and one thing stood out to me that I believe the show is going to have to take into account.
> 
> Right now we have evidence that Rhyllor is real, or at least the magic related to him is real. In the books Melisandre declares that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn and as such wields Lightbringer. Lightbringer is a glowing sword that radiates heat and light.
> 
> ...


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Seeing as how tyrion spent a long time sailing a river with griff/aegon targaryan before he even meets Danny in the books, I wonder if we'll ever see aegon in the show


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Seeing as how tyrion spent a long time sailing a river with griff/aegon targaryan before he even meets Danny in the books, I wonder if we'll ever see aegon in the show


I would think he was important as he is the only other living Targaryan so I would think we will meet him.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I would think he was important as he is the only other living Targaryan so I would think we will meet him.


You're assuming he IS a living Targaryan. If in the books he turns out to be an imposter, that might be something the show will excise to keep the story moving.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You're assuming he IS a living Targaryan. If in the books he turns out to be an imposter, that might be something the show will excise to keep the story moving.


One of the things I'm wondering as well, in the books I always got the sense that he wasn't a true Targaryan.

I still think that Jon and Dany team up at some point, don't know why but I'm hoping Jon isn't really dead and that he's actually R+L's kid


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

There is what seems to be a lot of padding in the books (at least the middle volumes), and there seems to be a good reason for that...Martin has said that when he started (back when it was a trilogy!), her intended to have a five-year gap in the story between two books (presumably the original 2 & 3). Then he decided that there were some events that were too important to happen off-screen (off-page?), so he abandoned the time jump and had the five years play out in the books themselves. But that meant there were a lot of characters who were meant to simply pass quietly through those five years, who now had to have something to do. And I think a lot of what we're seeing in the vast middle of the books is Martin coming up with busy-work to keep characters active.

There is a theory that nothing much that is introduced after the second or maybe third book really matters. It could be that Jon's "death" is just a way to explain why nothing much is happening with him for a span.

And that gives the TV show leeway to excise a lot of stuff that is almost literally just taking up space in the books. And of course, they know from their conversations with Martin just what is extraneous and what is essential to the real endgame.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You're assuming he IS a living Targaryan. If in the books he turns out to be an imposter, that might be something the show will excise to keep the story moving.


Agreed.



pjenkins said:


> One of the things I'm wondering as well, in the books I always got the sense that he wasn't a true Targaryan.
> 
> I still think that Jon and Dany team up at some point, don't know why but I'm hoping Jon isn't really dead and that he's actually R+L's kid


There are 3 dragons. It makes sense that there would be 3 Targaryans to be matched with them...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There is a theory that nothing much that is introduced after the second or maybe third book really matters. It could be that Jon's "death" is just a way to explain why nothing much is happening with him for a span.


It's kind of ironic when you think about it. He included padding for certain characters so that he could justify filling in the five year period with stories about new characters and avoid having to publish a book devoid of those original characters. It turns out, he padded so much that he was forced to split the next book in two (AFFC and ADWD), the first of which sidelined the very characters whose stories he did not want to sideline. To add insult to injury, those stories still read like padding. And, for what it's worth, this is coming from someone who actually likes AFFC and ADWD better than most readers.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interview with GRRM, in which he talks about some characters he wished had made the cut from book to TV.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/31/game-thrones-lady-stoneheart



> George R.R Martin points this out first: "My books have a cast of thousands, so for practical reasons they've had to cut or combine many characters," he said.
> 
> In other words, the bestselling Game of Thrones author and TV writer understands and agrees that the HBO series must leave out many of his A Song of Ice and Fire saga characters. Thrones has the most sprawling cast on television and some viewers already struggle to differentiate their Aryas, Ashas and Oshas. So leaving out some characters, and combining others, is necessary.
> 
> Still, it's only natural that there's a few characters Martin would have liked to have seen on the show that did not make it in.


His top five:

Strong Belwas
Jeyne Poole
The two older Tyrell sons (Loras' older brothers), Willas and Garlan


> And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books," Martin points out. "There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn't just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don't exist in the show. I've said from the start I wish we had more hours, but showrunners [David Benioff and Dan Weiss] work 24/7, 12 months a year."


And of course... Lady Stoneheart.


> "Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books," Martin said. "Whether it's sufficient or interesting enough&#8230; I think it is, or I wouldn't have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you."


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Book readers, please refresh my memory before I go spouting off in the episode thread. 

In the books, has it been made clear that Cersie will choose trial by combat and whatever Qyburn is working on will be her champion? Strongly hinted at? Is this just something that I think will happen? I can't remember...


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

heySkippy said:


> Book readers, please refresh my memory before I go spouting off in the episode thread.
> 
> In the books, has it been made clear that Cersie will choose trial by combat and whatever Qyburn is working on will be her champion? Strongly hinted at? Is this just something that I think will happen? I can't remember...


Yes, Robert Strong.


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## Doggie Bear (Jan 16, 2008)

Has there ever been a viewpoint character who "dies" in a chapter told from his/her viewpoint?

For example, in the terrific scene where Quentin Martell tries to free the dragons and gets set ablaze, it appears that he is toast, so to speak. But confirmation of his death comes in a subsequent chapter, for which someone else is the POV character.

As I recall, Jon Snow is left seemingly for dead at the end of a chapter from his POV, but there's no follow-up confirmation.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Wasn't Brienne like that? We experienced her death from her POV but I don't recall ever getting confirmation from another source.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wasn't Brienne like that? We experienced her death from her POV but I don't recall ever getting confirmation from another source.


Huh? I remember nothing like that


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Brienne of Tarth

The undead Catelyn Stark, now leading the brotherhood as "Lady Stoneheart", does not believe Brienne's tale of her search for Sansa and judges her to be a traitor who is serving the Lannisters. Brienne is given the choice of "sword or noose"-to kill Jaime Lannister to prove her loyalty, or to hang. Brienne refuses to choose and is sentenced to hang, along with her companions. As she is being hanged, she sees Podrick Payne choking and dying, and shouts "sword" to save him.[27][28]


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Brienne of Tarth

Brienne is a major POV character in A Feast for Crows. The book ends with her fate in doubt.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

But she appears in DwD in a point chronologically after that


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I didn't recall it being later.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

I thought she was attacked by Rorg(sp?)/the hound/who ever was wearing the bull head helm that seemed to change hands pretty often. Or was that before lady stoneheart and the hanging?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> Brienne of Tarth
> 
> The undead Catelyn Stark, now leading the brotherhood as "Lady Stoneheart", does not believe Brienne's tale of her search for Sansa and judges her to be a traitor who is serving the Lannisters. Brienne is given the choice of "sword or noose"to kill Jaime Lannister to prove her loyalty, or to hang. Brienne refuses to choose and is sentenced to hang, along with her companions. As she is being hanged, she sees Podrick Payne choking and dying, and shouts "sword" to save him.[27][28]





kaszeta said:


> But she appears in DwD in a point chronologically after that





BeanMeScot said:


> I didn't recall it being later.


Her last chapter in AFFC ends with "She screamed a word." "Sword" is assumed by most readers.

She later appears in the last Jamie chapter of ADWD.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

dwatt said:


> I thought she was attacked by Rorg(sp?)/the hound/who ever was wearing the bull head helm that seemed to change hands pretty often. Or was that before lady stoneheart and the hanging?


That was before Stoneheart and the BwoB.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I don't know how to treat this, but considering the audience:



Spoiler



Apparently the death of Shireen was not a show idea. GRRM told the producers that it is going to happen.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06...ont page)&utm_content=4&utm_campaign=Blogroll


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

If you watched the Information video after the show, the Producers talk about it.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

That has other implications too.



Spoiler



That would mean Ramsay lied in his letter to Jon Snow where he said he killed Stannis.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> I don't know how to treat this, but considering the audience:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Benioff is wrong when he says, "From the very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre they were sacrificing people and burning them alive on the beaches of Dragonstone." It was statues of The Seven that were being burned.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'm quite curious what magic Shireen's sacrifice will provide to Stannis.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I'm quite curious what magic Shireen's sacrifice will provide to Stannis.


Probably a LOT, considering what he got out of so little before...


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> That has other implications too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I always assumed that was the case. I was just waiting for the reveal in the next book.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> I guess I always assumed that was the case. I was just waiting for the reveal in the next book.


Yeah, me too. But it's still important.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> I'm quite curious what magic Shireen's sacrifice will provide to Stannis.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Probably a LOT, considering what he got out of so little before...


It should be epic, but I'm concerned that it will be indecisive.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> I'm quite curious what magic Shireen's sacrifice will provide to Stannis.


I don't think it'll be anything more than ending the snow storm and allowing them to march on Winterfell.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Posted it in the latest ep thread, but too good not to post here as well.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Posted it in the latest ep thread, but too good not to post here as well.


Excellent! :up: :up: :up:


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

Doggie Bear said:


> Has there ever been a viewpoint character who "dies" in a chapter told from his/her viewpoint?


I think Pate might be an example of this, AFFC 1st chapter, also Varamyr to a lesser extent, ADWD 1st chapter, though both are titled as prologue. Sometimes I think the Varamyr prologue was written in part to make a future Jon chapter easier to take in.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

IIRC, every prologue ends with the death of the viewpoint character.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidJL said:


> I think Pate might be an example of this, AFFC 1st chapter, also Varamyr to a lesser extent, ADWD 1st chapter, though both are titled as prologue. Sometimes I think the Varamyr prologue was written in part to make a future Jon chapter easier to take in.


Is it really a chapter that ends in death? He takes over the wolf and then later on they attack Cold Hands and the kids.

Pate would be though.

I still think Jon lives, and in his own body. I don't see how you translate his transfer in the show.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Now that the show has caught up with and even in some cases passed the events in the books, I'm wondering on how much of what they put in the show will affect the upcoming books. He might have told D&D what he plans to do but that doesn't mean he is going to do it. He may even decide to go in a completely different direction in some cases just so the show doesn't spoil the books. Should be interesting to see, assuming that he even finishes the books.


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## DavidJL (Feb 21, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Is it really a chapter that ends in death? He takes over the wolf and then later on they attack Cold Hands and the kids.
> 
> Pate would be though.
> 
> I still think Jon lives, and in his own body. I don't see how you translate his transfer in the show.


Ya, I was just answering Doggie Bear's question with an example and Varamyr's taking over One Eye was what I meant by "a lesser extent"

3D brings up an interesting point though, Cressen, Chett, and Will(can't remember) might all qualify to some extent.

As far as Jon, ya the TV show changes everything.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Any thoughts on whether GRRM would be able to get Book 6 out prior to the start of S6 next year? From a marketing perspective, that would be ideal for his publisher. If he waits any later than that, and people watch S6 before the book is released, it's likely to have a negative impact on sales.

And then the obvious follow-up: What are the chances he could buckle down and get Book 7 out prior to the release of S7 in spring 2017?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> And then the obvious follow-up: What are the chances he could buckle down and get Book 7 out prior to the release of S7 in spring 2017?


Zero.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I just don't get it. You have ONE job to do, you know how it all comes out in the end, why the eff can't he write? Brandon Sanderson (the guy who took over for Robert Jordan) has written at LEAST five 700+ page books in just the time since ADWD. These are good books too! 

GRRM is quickly becoming my least favorite author. I suspect he's just happy living off the bumb in sales of his books and now wants the show to finish out his story. It will be easy for him to write the books after the show does everything.

That brings up another point...if GRRM tells the show runners that he's going to do X in the books, then he gets a writing and producer credit on the show. But what happens if GRRM uses something from the show in his books. Does he claim ownership of it, or do the writers of the show get credit?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Zero.


This. Last I heard, we were looking 2 years out on book 6.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DavidTigerFan said:


> GRRM is quickly becoming my least favorite author.


Are you sure it is not more of a love/hate relationship? I would think someone's least favorite author would be one where you read maybe one book and then refuse to ever read anything else by that author.

Anyway, I rank Martin above Patrick Rothfuss. At least Martin never claimed that all the books were already written and that he would release his books one per year until the series was complete.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

GRRM doesn't just have one job to do. (I wish that were the case.) He works on a variety of different books as writer, editor etc. He doesn't just work on this series. I am not saying I approve but he's not actually sitting on his butt doing nothing while only this story sits in his head.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Are you sure it is not more of a love/hate relationship? I would think someone's least favorite author would be one where you read maybe one book and then refuse to ever read anything else by that author.
> 
> Anyway, I rank Martin above Patrick Rothfuss. At least Martin never claimed that all the books were already written and that he would release his books one per year until the series was complete.


Yes, because the last two books have been (mostly) horrible. He feels like he needs to invent characters to keep the story going. Almost everyone that has watched this season has said that the showrunners have made great decisions about where to cut out plots and what not. For example:

The entire Iron islands plot has nothing to do with the main story.
Sansa being in the Eyrie. Why is she staying there?
Most of the internal politics of King's Landing.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Yes, because the last two books have been (mostly) horrible. He feels like he needs to invent characters to keep the story going. Almost everyone that has watched this season has said that the showrunners have made great decisions about where to cut out plots and what not.


I agree that books 4 and 5 were not good.

But I still thoroughly enjoyed books 1 to 3, and I hope that Martin manages to write a good ending somewhere in books 6 and 7.

So, as much as I dislike Martin adding filler books in the middle of the series and taking many years to write each book, he is certainly not my least favorite author. If he were, I would not be so anxious to read books 6 and 7!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And let's face it...if he's bruned out, he's not going to write good books. I'd rather wait for better books then have him hack out, well, hackwork right now.

(And I can't help but wonder if the last couple of books were the result of him feeling obligated to write them as much as Martin kinda losing the plot in the vast middle he's let unspool...)


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And let's face it...if he's bruned out, he's not going to write good books. I'd rather wait for better books then have him hack out, well, hackwork right now.


I'd rather wait for quality if a longer wait actually would deliver higher quality. But I am skeptical. In my experience, most of the series books (for any series) that I have seen that take longer than two years are not very good.

Also, I am not sure that Martin's life expectancy is long enough at this point that he can afford to wait very long if he wants to finish the series himself.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

That's why I am so very happy that HBO is doing the series. I don't actually expect the books to ever get completed at this point but I think the showrunners will complete the series. And even if both do finish, I suspect the showrunners will do a better job of it.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I hope he gives up and has another writer come in. Sanderson did a great job with the WoT series. Jordan did the same thing where he introduced plots and characters that had no bearing on the main plot. Sanderson killed those off quickly.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jakerock said:


> GRRM doesn't just have one job to do. (I wish that were the case.) He works on a variety of different books as writer, editor etc. He doesn't just work on this series. I am not saying I approve but he's not actually sitting on his butt doing nothing while only this story sits in his head.


My understanding is that he's cut out a lot of the extra stuff and has (allegedly) been focusing a lot more time on writing Book 6. For example, he didn't write an episode for S5 of the show as he has for each of the previous seasons. And he's seriously cut back on his personal appearances.

My take is that he started to really enjoy all the trappings of the new fame that came with his book series being made into a very popular TV show. But then when the reality started to set in that the show is likely to spoil the ending of the saga that he's spent so much time creating, he suddenly decided to stop messing around and sequester himself to his office and actually write. If that's the case, I don't see any reason why he couldn't get a finished manuscript to the publisher by this fall, which would give them time to edit it and publish it in March 2016 just in time for S6 of the show.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> My take is that he started to really enjoy all the trappings of the new fame that came with his book series being made into a very popular TV show. But then when the reality started to set in that the show is likely to spoil the ending of the saga that he's spent so much time creating, he suddenly decided to stop messing around and sequester himself to his office and actually write.


I doubt that. Remember, he is at the age that most people have retired and just do whatever they want. Apparently, he had wanted to open a movie theater for a long time. And now he has.

I suspect he is just not good at setting realistic goals for himself for his writing (decades ago his writing goals were probably set by someone else, or by necessity to earn a living). He is trying to do too much, and it probably feels like it is too difficult to achieve his goals so he does something else, and then people say they are willing to wait for a better book, and then he revises his goals to be even higher, and then it feels too difficult to achieve them just now, so do something else....


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Is it really a chapter that ends in death? He takes over the wolf and then later on they attack Cold Hands and the kids.
> 
> Pate would be though.
> 
> I still think Jon lives, and in his own body. I don't see how you translate his transfer in the show.


I was thinking about that. I think we all want that.

But George has been pointing out that every time someone is brought back, they aren't the same. It was true for the Lightning Lord, it was true for Lady Stoneheart.

If it's true for Jon, would we like who he comes back as?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> I suspect he is just not good at setting realistic goals for himself for his writing (decades ago his writing goals were probably set by someone else, or by necessity to earn a living).


This was also the first book(s) he wrote that wasn't a self-contained unit. I think he just got in over his head with the plotting...with a novel, you can make it up as you go with a general sense of where you're going, and then go back and re-write. With a series, you're stuck with what you've already published. It doesn't feel like he did a good enough job of planning ahead (hence a trilogy turned into five books turned into seven, and counting)...

If he had it all to do over again, I suspect he would write an outline for the whole thing before he published the first book. But now he's stuck with the situation he's in.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I hope he gives up and has another writer come in. Sanderson did a great job with the WoT series. Jordan did the same thing where he introduced plots and characters that had no bearing on the main plot. Sanderson killed those off quickly.


What is this series? I've seen it referred to in GoT threads, but hesitate to start it since it's always mentioned as sucking in the middle. Is it worth reading? How many books are there?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> What is this series? I've seen it referred to in GoT threads, but hesitate to start it since it's always mentioned as sucking in the middle. Is it worth reading? How many books are there?


Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson
14 books

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Wheel of Time. I've never read it, but that's what WOT refers to.

ETA: john4200 beat me to it with a more detailed answer.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I doubt that. Remember, he is at the age that most people have retired and just do whatever they want. Apparently, he had wanted to open a movie theater for a long time. And now he has.
> 
> I suspect he is just not good at setting realistic goals for himself for his writing (decades ago his writing goals were probably set by someone else, or by necessity to earn a living). *He is trying to do too much*, and it probably feels like it is too difficult to achieve his goals so he does something else, and then people say they are willing to wait for a better book, and then he revises his goals to be even higher, and then it feels too difficult to achieve them just now, so do something else....


From his blog "Not A Blog"...

http://grrm.livejournal.com/429752.html
Entry" "Wars, Woes, Work"
June 10th



> Life is impossibly busy right now. I am wrestling with the Son of Kong (that is, working on THE WINDS OF WINTER), trying to wrap up a final round of edits and revisions on the twenty-third Wild Cards book (HIGH STAKES), developing three new series concepts for HBO and Cinemax, hiring writers and directors for three short low-budget films I am hoping to produce based on some classic SF short stories (more on that in the months to come), making my way through the Hugo Packet to prepare to vote, looking forward to opening JURASSIC WORLD at the Cocteay and to hosting a ten-author special event for the release of Steve Stirling's new "Emberverse" anthology, THE CHANGE. In a week's time, we'll be flying off to Europe for long-planned appearances in Germany (Hamburg) and Sweden (Stockholm), en route to Archipelacon on the island of Aland, where I am to be the Guest of Honor...


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

astrohip said:


> From his blog "Not A Blog"...
> 
> http://grrm.livejournal.com/429752.html
> Entry" "Wars, Woes, Work"
> June 10th


Boo effing hoo. Cut the BS and focus on Winds of Winter. His life is as unfocused as the last books.

I am not sure I even give a crap about 6 and 7 really. HBO is writing the story for me now, and doing a pretty damn good job. I remember reading 4 and 5 and thinking what crap TV they would be. I can't imagine what the editors took out if all that was left in.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> This. Last I heard, we were looking 2 years out on book 6.


So you're talking Winds of Winter in 2017?

At that rate George and I will both be dead before Dream of Spring hits the shelves.

And to do justice to all the plot lines he has going so far, I don't think 7 books will be enough.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, before it was seven it was five, and before it was five it was three, so I'm not holding my breath...


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Well, well, well. Things play out.

Now, does book six come out BEFORE season six, or do we learn these answers on TV with the rest of the people?

C'mon, George. Book readers are counting on you!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Well, well, well. Things play out.
> 
> Now, does book six come out BEFORE season six, or do we learn these answers on TV with the rest of the people?
> 
> C'mon, George. Book readers are counting on you!


They're already in pre-production on S6. So even if GRRM gets B6 to the printers before next season, the show will be in the can.

"And that's how butterflies turn into dragons." -- GRRM


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Yeah, I'm not worried about that. I know they know where it's going.

What I'm interested in is - will *I* be able to buy the book and read it before the series starts up again next April?

Or will this thread no longer serve a purpose as book and TV readers will be equally in new ground?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

From the books, the Dothraki have that retirement village for retired Khaleesi. Do you think Dani will wind up there rather than those Dothraki doing something to her?


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I wonder if Drogon flies after her and the new clan will follow her after that.
So they are setting up Cercei to go medieval on Westeros now that her daughter is dead and she has Mountain back.
Before Melisandre left with Stannis I always though she would be the one to resurrect Jon. When she left, I assumed that maybe Jon had no chance. But, she is back, so I am pretty sure she will have a part to play in all this. I wonder what she really saw in her flames.

Was Marcela's death covered in the book?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> Or will this thread no longer serve a purpose as book and TV readers will be equally in new ground?


Now we'll need a special thread for people who want to read the books but don't want spoilers from the TV show...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Melisandre went back to The Wall and she seemed crushed. Did she finally realize that Stannis wasn't the Lord that was fortold by her god? Lord of Light, right?


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## SonicCookie (Oct 28, 2001)

secondclaw said:


> Was Marcela's death covered in the book?


Myrcella is alive in the books, if I remember correctly. She was just injured in an attack.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

SonicCookie said:


> Myrcella is alive in the books, if I remember correctly. She was just injured in an attack.


That was in the beginning of the Dorne parts. My guess is that they just skipped that whole thing and what happened to Myrcella last night is what is going to happen to her in the future in the books.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Melisandre went back to The Wall and she seemed crushed. Did she finally realize that Stannis wasn't the Lord that was foretold by her god? Lord of Light, right?


Or maybe she realized the outcome she guaranteed if he murdered his daughter wasn't going to happen, and didn't want to be around when _he _realized that?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe she realized the outcome she guaranteed if he murdered his daughter wasn't going to happen, and didn't want to be around when _he _realized that?


In real life, that would be true, but this is fantasy. I'm sure that's what Davros is going to think. We have seen proof multiple times that Rhyllor is quite powerful. I think all the predictions were for the Lord of Light and it has already been noted that Stannis wasn't that guy which would mean that there is another Lord of Light coming and he is the one that is supposed to take Winterfell. A raised from the dead Jon, perhaps? He would be released from his vows with the Night's Watch having died. He will be a free agent if she does raise him.

If suspicions are correct, he is also a son of a king and rightful heir of Westeros.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> If suspicions are correct, he is also a son of a king and rightful heir of Westeros.


Although he's only the rightful heir if his parents were married, and since Rhaegar was already married at the time of the "abduction," that seems pretty unlikely...

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, and now we don't have to wait for the books to find out!


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although he's only the rightful heir if his parents were married, and since Rhaegar was already married at the time of the "abduction," that seems pretty unlikely...
> 
> It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, and now we don't have to wait for the books to find out!


Maybe Rhyllor doesn't care if he is a bastard or not.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

On the book, it was very clear that Stannis wasn't the one ( fake Lightbringer). And it was obvious Melisandre knew it. In the show it appears that she was quiet surprised at Stannis' failure. But she knew enough to run away before the slaughter. So I guess, what was the point of her sending Stannis in? It's almost like her god intentionally led him to his death, to remove another competitor. And I guess since there isn't anyone else marching onto Winterfell, it will have to be resurrected Jon and the rescued wildlings.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Or maybe she's just nuts. She has visions and she likes to burn people. Today we'd put her in a psych ward.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Or maybe she's just nuts. She has visions and she likes to burn people. Today we'd put her in a psych ward.


Again, not the real world. This is a world with Dragons and assasins who change faces. She's one of the less crazy people...


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I thought that, but the last few weeks she's seemed less and less sane to me.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> I thought that, but the last few weeks she's seemed less and less sane to me.


She thinks she is with the Lord of Light who is going to win the Iron Throne. She convinces him to kill his own daughter as a sacrifice to the god that will make that possible. Yet something is wrong. Things are happening that shouldn't be. What's happening doesn't match what she sees in the flames. Has Rhyllor forsaken her? You get the drift.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Melisandre's interpretations of what she sees in the flames have always been inaccurate at times and never as accurate as someone like Moqorro.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Are casting spoilers allowed in this thread?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> ... Rhyllor...


Wrong franchise. R'hllor.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

secondclaw said:


> So they are setting up Cercei to go medieval on Westeros now that her daughter is dead and she has Mountain back.


Really? So she has one really big guy--even if he has special powers--I can't see her ever commanding anything in Kings Landing again.


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> Really? So she has one really big guy--even if he has special powers--I can't see her ever commanding anything in Kings Landing again.


Not if she wins trial by combat. Assuming it even comes to that. We also don't know if Mountain can even be killed anymore, so he may be a formidable force by himself.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Are casting spoilers allowed in this thread?


 I'd say yes. Just tag it


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Are casting spoilers allowed in this thread?


I posted a link to an article about S6 casting spoilers back in Post #188.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

secondclaw said:


> Not if she wins trial by combat. Assuming it even comes to that. We also don't know if Mountain can even be killed anymore, so he may be a formidable force by himself.


She may be released, but Tommen has a new Hand now, and she's shown herself to be unfit to rule. I don't see her ever having power again. But then stranger things have happened.....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> She may be released, but Tommen has a new Hand now, and she's shown herself to be unfit to rule. I don't see her ever having power again. But then stranger things have happened.....


I also don't see that changing her behavior or expectations. She's entitled, arrogant, and stupid (but she thinks she's smart). So she'll just keep demanding that she get her way, clueless to the fact that whatever power she had has completely evaporated away (as has that of her family, mostly).

My guess is that little walk of shame didn't teach her humility; it taught her rage.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So, a thought...

Everyone who is resurrected by a priest of the Lord of Light come back changed. Beric Dondarion, and Catelyn Stark. Catelyn Stark was so changed that she ended up with a new name - Lady Stoneheart. 

What if Jon Snow is resurrected and is changed enough that he casts off that name and becomes someone else. And thus all the "Jon Snow really is dead" articles and so on are actually true. 

Gandalf the Gray is dead. Long live Gandalf the White.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I guess Dondarion came back as sort of a good guy. I just don't want Jon to come back evil. 

Maybe he could warg into Ghost and go up north and find Bran. Then he could warg into Hodor. :up:


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Catelyn's body was mutilated and then degraded by soaking in the water for a long time. Apparently the resurrection power of the Lord of Light cannot fix that much damage, so although she came back to life, her appearance and capabilities were degraded.

Dondarrion died and was resurrected multiple times. It seems the degradation gradually increased with each resurrection.

Jon, if resurrected by the Lord of Light, would only need to have the punctures healed and some blood restored. So I would expect him to come back without a lot of changes.

Unless his resurrection is more Targaryen than Lord of Light. Maybe the Nights Watch throw his body on a pyre, toss his sword in, and maybe Melisandre adds some salt. Then, presto, Targaryen magic and Lord of Light magic combine to bring him back, and he grabs his flaming sword and....


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Here's something I found on Vanity Fair that I think helps clear alot of stuff up. Apparently GRRM wants his main characters to age more so that's why he's been adding "filler" to the 4th and 5th books. Many characters that the showrunners have cut most likely have no bearing in the overall story of the books. Specifically, Aegon. He's not mentioned anywhere in the series. In fact, in the books Aegon is still with Varys and Tyrion. Tyrion hasn't even met Dany yet. So because the show has skipped Aegon and gone ahead to put Tyrion with Dany, we can assume that the Aegon in the books is an imposter.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/04/game-of-thrones-no-aegon-young-griff


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

White Walkers aren't so bad. See...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Here's something I found on Vanity Fair that I think helps clear alot of stuff up. Apparently GRRM wants his main characters to age more so that's why he's been adding "filler" to the 4th and 5th books.
> 
> http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/04/game-of-thrones-no-aegon-young-griff


Couldn't he have simply started a book with "Ten years later..."

Off to read that link. Thanks!


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Tommen has a new Hand now,


And he's going to need it with Margaery in jail.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Couldn't he have simply started a book with "Ten years later..." Off to read that link. Thanks!


He wanted to do a five-year time jump between books, to let the kids age. But then he realized that the rest of the stories he'd created for the other characters couldn't just be put on hold. He'd created a sense of urgency in many of the stories, so doing a five-year jump would negate that urgency he'd created in the non-kid story lines.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

I found this comical

http://www.dorkly.com/post/63864/george-rr-martins-open-letter-about-the-deaths-in-game-of-thrones


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

More speculation than a spoiler, but I this interesting and plausible, in a Holy Schitt kind of way.

This New 'Game Of Thrones' Theory On Jon Snow Changes Everything


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> More speculation than a spoiler, but I this interesting and plausible, in a Holy Schitt kind of way.
> 
> This New 'Game Of Thrones' Theory On Jon Snow Changes Everything


But in a story kind of way, completely implausible.

This New Game of Thrones Theory Is Almost Certainly Wrong, But It's Still Fascinating


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)




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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Those 2 really do look alike in that picture, though. And I always wondered why they bothered to mention that Reed was with Ned at that time. Just that he probably knows about Jon, I guess. Or maybe.......


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Best Arrested Dev/GOT shirts available for sale NOW!

http://arrestedwesteros.bigcartel.com/product/a-coat-of-arms


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Saw a reference to this on Connie Willis' blog, but someone at Worldcon made the joke that &#8220;George R.R. Martin isn&#8217;t on Twitter anymore because he killed all 140 characters&#8221; and I find that hilarious.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Knowing the spoiler-phobes here I figured it might be prudent to start conversation back up here.

I have a horrible memory, but lets discuss where we are in the books vs where we are in the show via characters.

Book Tyrion: With the fake Aegon sailing on a river in westeros. How did he leave mereen again?
Book Varys: With Tyrion
Book Arya: Still in Braavos training to be a faceless man.
Book Jon Snow: Dead
Book Hodor: alive with Bran
Book Bran: Still with 3 eyed raven
Book Cersei: I can't remember
Book Jaime: With cersei in Kings landing
Book Dany: Still twiddling her thumbs in Mereen

What other major plots and characters am I missing? Also, do you guys think that since the show is skipping things like Stoneheart, Aegon, and others that they know that GRRM are using those plots as filler?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Book Tyrion: With the fake Aegon sailing on a river in westeros. How did he leave mereen again?
> Book Varys: With Tyrion


Nope. He was last seen joining with Brown Ben Plumm and the Second Sons fighting against Dany, actually.



> Book Arya: Still in Braavos training to be a faceless man.


Yes, although a released chapter of Winds of Winter has a variant of the acting company scene. A bit surprised the show didn't touch on her being a warg.



> Book Jon Snow: Dead
> Book Hodor: alive with Bran
> Book Bran: Still with 3 eyed raven


Yes



> Book Cersei: I can't remember


Still stuck in the Tower in Kings Landing



> Book Jaime: With cersei in Kings landing


Roaming around the Riverlands looking for Sansa. Ran into Brienne who told him he must come right away, since she had found Sansa.



> Book Dany: Still twiddling her thumbs in Mereen


Dany fled on Drogon, and got found by Khal Jhaqo.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Book Varys is back in King's Landing killing Kevan Lannister and Maester Luwin.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> What other major plots and characters am I missing? Also, do you guys think that since the show is skipping things like Stoneheart, Aegon, and others that they know that GRRM are using those plots as filler?


Not always filler... sometimes the showrunners have just combined related plot lines for streamlining (the Jayne Poole subplot with Ramsay Bolton became Sansa actually marrying Ramsay), or Gendry and Edric Storm getting combined into a single character, or a couple of the Martells getting blended together


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> Book Varys is back in King's Landing killing Kevan Lannister and Maester Luwin.


Right, forgot that little detail.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Book Varys is back in King's Landing killing Kevan Lannister and Maester Luwin.


Pycelle


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Have any of you read the released chapters of TWOW? I just read "The forsaken" and it's setting up Euron to be a big plot point. Specifically that he has a full set of Valyrian Steel Armor.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Pycelle


Oops, thanks


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Have any of you read the released chapters of TWOW? I just read "The forsaken" and it's setting up Euron to be a big plot point. Specifically that he has a full set of Valyrian Steel Armor.


That would be interesting. They need to be turning it into swords post haste!


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Have any of you read the released chapters of TWOW? I just read "The forsaken" and it's setting up Euron to be a big plot point. Specifically that he has a full set of Valyrian Steel Armor.





BeanMeScot said:


> That would be interesting. They need to be turning it into swords post haste!


Ooh. Haven't read that yet.

Would Valyrian steel armor be impervious to White Walker swords? Not sure if that's worth melting down or not.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Ooh. Haven't read that yet.
> 
> Would Valyrian steel armor be impervious to White Walker swords? Not sure if that's worth melting down or not.


I bet it would be impervious but since the only way to kill a WW is Dragon Glass or Valerian Steel, it would probably be more valueable as several swords than one set of armor.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Here it is....this is from the chapter GRRM read at some fan event:

https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> I bet it would be impervious but since the only way to kill a WW is Dragon Glass or Valerian Steel, it would probably be more valueable as several swords than one set of armor.


It depends if you're the guy wearing the armor or not.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

True!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So if the guy wearing the Valyrian steel armor goes up against a White Walker without a Valyrian steel sword, you could end up with a White Walker wearing Valyrian steel armor...


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

Can White Walkers turn Dragons?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Uh oh--I hope not.


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