# The Amazing Race 11/1



## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

Newsflash: Dutch people aren't yodelers.

I love when they go to NL. It's fun to see places I've been.

I wish I knew how long Ericka took to count the bells.

ETA: Wow. First quitters ever. Just wow. Why not take a chance on a nonelim or time penalty and hope for an airport equalizer?

deb


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

debtoine said:


> Newsflash: Dutch people aren't yodelers.
> 
> I love when they go to NL. It's fun to see places I've been.
> 
> ...


I don't think it mattered. There was no chance of them ever finishing either. They couldn't ring the bell and the wind was directly opposite them at the golf. You could see they were freezing too so what was the point?

I hated them originally but i came to actually like the girls by the end. I think the challenges were really unfair and gave them no real chance. I also don't get what the ring the bell thing had to do with the dance, it was like that was added arbitrarily to make it harder.

I don't hate any of the teams left but Erika is working my last nerve. I like Brian but she has become the flo of this year.

Amusingly on the elimination station web site, they had a contest to row the weird round boats in Vietnam Someone in the segment said they should use them in the show. Clearly not fans as they did several years ago.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

OMG, it's back!



Spoiler



The damn hay bales that eliminated the uber cute girls Lena and Cristy from season 6.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I hated them originally but i came to actually like the girls by the end. I think the challenges were really unfair and gave them no real chance.


I was actually rooting for them. They seemed to always be enjoying themselves. We never saw them get upset with each other. They were just fun to watch.

Both the tasks had a physical nature to them. I give them all the credit in the world for attempting to ring that bell over 70 times until they apparently had blisters on their hands. I have to echo the question on what the point of the bell was. Every male rang it on the first attempt and it really added no downtime for those teams.

And while the golf was not as physical it obviously was not easy hitting it into the wind. And yes you could see them shivering at the end because of how cold they were. The wind seemed pretty strong at that point and you could see from the camera that it was raining.

I am rooting for the brothers now. They seem to be the best bet. I still like Brian (I think it is) but agree that Erika has turned me off that team.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

They shoulda hit the bell the way they were hitting the balls.


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## Neenahboy (Apr 8, 2004)

I was astounded that the poker players didn't opt for a time penalty after returning to the bell for the second time and failing. Not that I was too broken up about seeing them fail miserably, though.

LOVED watching Brian and Ericka struggle, and I was surprised they got a time penalty for the bikes as opposed to being forced to go back and do that part over. Seemed like the pit stop was close enough to make them do that.

I've really liked watching Gary and Matt's relationship evolve, and right now they're my first choice.


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## mike_k (Sep 20, 2005)

debtoine said:


> I wish I knew how long Ericka took to count the bells.


When Ericka was whining on their long walk, she mentioned that she had spent two hours on the stairs (in her explanation on why her feet undoubtedly must hurt more than his). If it really was two hours it's hard to believe that they made up all that time.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I don't think it mattered. There was no chance of them ever finishing either. They couldn't ring the bell and the wind was directly opposite them at the golf. You could see they were freezing too so what was the point?


They could of just skipped the bell and went straight to the dancing right? Then they would take a penalty at the pit stop and hopefully it would have been short enough to beat team Zebra. I'm not 100% sure of the rules, but I think that would work.


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

I was really hoping for Ericka to be gone (sorry, Brian). She spent most of the leg trying to ensure that Brian knew that any pain he claimed to have was NOTHING compared to her vastly superior pain. "Don't tell me you hurt...I hurt MORE!"

Yipes. She's been close to the wheels coming off before, but this was nuts.

I like 'em and all, but I'm glad someone other than Meghan and Ch...ch....SHANE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! won the leg.

I like this bunch, in general. I could live with just about any team winning except for Brian and Ericka, and that's her fault, Flo of 2009.

I did feel sorry for Poker Girls. Not my favorite team, but they could easily have joined Ericka in Whine Land, and did not. They just kept trying, and trying, and bald snarking to the other detour, then trying, and trying... they were close on a couple of the bell rings, but you can't keep trying 71 times in one detour and 16 times in another, and keep going back and forth, and again, and expect to stay in the race.

I'm glad they have apparently a healthy relationship, and that they weren't blaming each other for losing.

I'm also glad their only "rich b---h" moment in this leg was when they helpfully pointed out that "the other kids" weren't used to fine luxury automobiles.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Maybe they were going to take the time penalty but were told it didn't matter so they just quit, I don't know. I don't know how much time they spent going back and forth between the two tasks but yeah, if they had just cut their losses right away maybe the time penalty wouldn't have been enough to give them the boot.


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

Oh, and I love the Netherlands. Really, really want to visit it some day. (And yes, Deb, I'll ask Toine for pointers if I do, or you. )

The bells reminded me of what's called the "interval signal" for the Dutch shortwave external radio service, Radio Netherlands. I used to listen to that station regularly as a boy...in English, of course, they had a very good and popular English feed to North America.

Here's about what it sounded like in the mid-70's, and you'll see what I mean.

http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/hol-z-radio_netherlands_rvd_c1975.m3u


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Inundated said:


> I'm also glad their only "rich b---h" moment in this leg was when they helpfully pointed out that "the other kids" weren't used to fine luxury automobiles.


So what was holding Brian back from starting the car. Didn't he have the keyfob on him?


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

Ment said:


> So what was holding Brian back from starting the car. Didn't he have the keyfob on him?


I'll have to go back and look at the recording, but it was something like that...one of the locals pointed it out to him...


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## tem (Oct 6, 2003)

>I wish I knew how long Ericka took to count the bells.

they said it took 2 hrs.

I thought it was unfair to have what amounted to two physical tasks. Having to ring that bell had nothing to do w/ the dancing and seemed very difficult for females to complete. But, for Maria to make such lame attempts only to get it 12 inches off the platform was really pathetic.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

tem said:


> >I wish I knew how long Ericka took to count the bells.
> 
> they said it took 2 hrs.
> 
> I thought it was unfair to have what amounted to two physical tasks. Having to ring that bell had nothing to do w/ the dancing and seemed very difficult for females to complete. But, for Maria to make such lame attempts only to get it 12 inches off the platform was really pathetic.


I wonder how much that sledge weighed?


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

debtoine said:


> ETA: Wow. First quitters ever. Just wow. Why not take a chance on a nonelim or time penalty and hope for an airport equalizer





Neenahboy said:


> I was astounded that the poker players didn't opt for a time penalty after returning to the bell for the second time and failing. Not that I was too broken up about seeing them fail miserably, though.


According to Tiffany, they did take the penalty and it was a 24 hour penalty. They didn't quit the race they quit the detour. They'd spent 3 hours on the detour up to that point.

http://www.tiffanymichelle.com/Tiffany_Michelle/Blog/Entries/2009/11/1_Amazing_Race_-_Amsterdam.html


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

Why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why do people not read the instructions? And read them again, mid challenge to be sure they aren't screwing up! 

Erika can get annoying, but I think she's a far cry from Flo. At least Erika apologizes from time to time and does participate in challenges. Brian was wonderful at helping her to calm down.

I really felt sorry for Tiffany and Maria. I think, with the right partner, Tiffany could have won, but Maria was such a drain and did the minimum. Could there have been a more half-hearted effort to ring the bell? I agree that it was a mistake to include the bell-ringing part of the challenge. I'm thinking the producers didn't imagine it would be that difficult.

Fun to see the Netherlands. Makes me want to go there. Seemed like an unfortunate windy day until I though - duh! - windmills . . . because it's windy there a lot.

I suppose, if MIka and Canaan had made it through last week, they would have been out this week: fear of water and fear of bell-ringing, dancing and herring. She's probably never ridden a bike either.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Maui said:


> According to Tiffany, they did take the penalty and it was a 24 hour penalty. They didn't quit the race they quit the detour. They'd spent 3 hours on the detour up to that point.
> 
> http://www.tiffanymichelle.com/Tiffany_Michelle/Blog/Entries/2009/11/1_Amazing_Race_-_Amsterdam.html


They got the severe penalty though because they quit the detour altogether. That was stupid. If they had just skipped the bell and mallet thing, and went on to the dancing, the penalty likely would be much less severe.

Brian and Erica skipped the bicycle ride part of the clue and only got a half an hour penalty. I have no idea what the girl's penalty would have been, but if the girls only got a half an hour too and had done it early enough (like maybe the second time), it might have made a difference.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

I didn't like the girls initially either, but did come around- they were tryers.
One more reason to study past seasons if you ever go on this show- in the heat of the moment I'm not at all surprised that they didn't consider skipping a step and taking a penalty. It wouldn't occur to a lot of people.



> I wonder how much that sledge weighed?


I have to wonder, as Maria seemed particularly unable to figure out how to use it.
Our heaviest maul is (I think) 12 lbs. and I (female) can swing it fairly well- it's all in the technique. She was trying to man handle it and didn't use gravity to help herself at all.

Now I certainly couldn't do it 20 times in a row with a 12 pounder- probably not even 10 good ones before my arms went jelly- so you'd have to make it count the first couple of times. But I doubt that one weighed more than 6-8 lbs which I can swing easily and really hard- and I'm old. Not sure what was up with Maria, but she sure never chopped wood before.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

how come that one team (come in second, I think) didn't get a penalty for having BOTH players do the bell counting?


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

Anubys said:


> how come that one team (come in second, I think) didn't get a penalty for having BOTH players do the bell counting?


that was two teams working together.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

If I got the first bell count wrong, I would have tried to count the levers in front of the carillon player.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

what was to stop her from going back every 5 seconds with a new number?

just start from 45 and keep adding 1 until he says "yes"...


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I wasn't quite understanding the difficulty of the golf thing. I get that fatigue was a factor the second time through and the wind was blowing, but I don't think the other teams were _that_ much stronger than the girls. Either task only worked if the couple worked as a team, and Maria seemed to be a lousy teammate to have.

WTF is with Team Zebra not being able to figure out how to put an E-Class in drive? Turn on the car, push the brake, push down the gear selector lever.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Inundated said:


> Oh, and I love the Netherlands. Really, really want to visit it some day. (And yes, Deb, I'll ask Toine for pointers if I do, or you. )
> 
> The bells reminded me of what's called the "interval signal" for the Dutch shortwave external radio service, Radio Netherlands. I used to listen to that station regularly as a boy...in English, of course, they had a very good and popular English feed to North America.
> 
> ...


Hey! Another SW enthusiast. RN was one of my favorites too. I loved listening to SW but the interwebs basically killed it for me. My Sony ICF-2010 is quietly gathering dust in the closet.

The preview for next week also brings back great TAR memories.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

I understand not reading the clue and all but shouldn't a penalty be for gaining an unfair advantage? Team Zebra walked the first part of the detour which I am sure made them lose valuable time. On top of that they lose more time with the 30 min penalty for not using a bike. Kind of a sucky penalty in a way. I also wonder if and how they returned the borrowed bikes (which I thought they would get a penalty for).


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

So, two weeks in a row where the teams eliminated themselves by not completing the task. Has that ever happened before? And yes, you could tell the girls had never used a maul, sledgehammer, or axe before. Or maybe even a baseball bat. Choke down and let the weight of the tool work for you.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> They could of just skipped the bell and went straight to the dancing right? Then they would take a penalty at the pit stop and hopefully it would have been short enough to beat team Zebra. I'm not 100% sure of the rules, but I think that would work.


If that were an option I suspect that they would have taken it, they're both very smart women. We have no idea what the options and penalties are for not completing a task voluntarily. I only recall that happening once and they mentioned in advance what the penalty was. That was when Romber decided not to do the meat eating thing and convinced a later couple not to as well.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

BrandonRe said:


> So, two weeks in a row where the teams eliminated themselves by not completing the task. Has that ever happened before? And yes, you could tell the girls had never used a maul, sledgehammer, or axe before. Or maybe even a baseball bat. Choke down and let the weight of the tool work for you.


How many city girls have used something like that?

Assuming they really showed them in order, Tiffany could have done it. She came really close on about the 70th try when she was really learning how to do it but by then she was exhausted. If she had that technique from the start she would have been golden.

BTW, Tiffany reminds me of someone famous but for the life of me, I can't figure out who. Any ideas?


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## KyleLC (Feb 6, 2002)

ElJay said:


> WTF is with Team Zebra not being able to figure out how to put an E-Class in drive? Turn on the car, push the brake, push down the gear selector lever.


I think the problem was that he had the door open. He was doing everything else you mentioned.


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## KyleLC (Feb 6, 2002)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> BTW, Tiffany reminds me of someone famous but for the life of me, I can't figure out who. Any ideas?


Someone mentioned Sandra Bullock in a previous thread. To me she looks like she could be her sister or cousin, but of course not nearly as good looking as Sandra.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> How many city girls have used something like that?


I'm a city boy...first time I tried to split wood with a (what do you call those, anyway?!)...thing like that...it took me a couple of tries then I figured out that you bring it from over your head and let its weight and gravity do all the work...

hell, we've all seen Westerns where the people were doing that kind of work (building rail roads or a fence)...it's not hard to figure out...


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Becca looked at me after Erica missed the count and said "I'd have just started saying numbers in order after that.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

KyleLC said:


> Someone mentioned Sandra Bullock in a previous thread. To me she looks like she could be her sister or cousin, but of course not nearly as good looking as Sandra.


I could see that resemblance but I don't think that's the one I keep missing. It's just out of reach but it's there for sure.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> If that were an option I suspect that they would have taken it, they're both very smart women.


I agree they were smart and I thought their game play up to this point was pretty good. I can understand why they had trouble with both tasks, but the going back and forth was what killed them. They might have done better if they had just doggedly stuck with one of the tasks.


IJustLikeTivo said:


> We have no idea what the options and penalties are for not completing a task voluntarily.


It didn't have to look voluntary. "Oops! I can't believe we just passed right by the bell the second time! How silly are we to forget that?"  Might work, but probably not. 


IJustLikeTivo said:


> I only recall that happening once and they mentioned in advance what the penalty was. That was when Romber decided not to do the meat eating thing and convinced a later couple not to as well.


I think it was a two hour penalty that time wasn't it? Worked for Rob, but it would be too long in this case I think.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I'm glad the poker girls are gone; and I'm glad they got to find out that the brothers were gay before they were eliminated.  

But I did feel sorry for them; even if I thought their technique in both the farmer golf and the bell-ring were pretty pathetic, particularly from Maria. I was actually kind of hoping they would be at the bell-ring for long enough that another team would come along and maybe they would see how to swing the sledge.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

appleye1 said:


> I agree they were smart and I thought their game play up to this point was pretty good. I can understand why they had trouble with both tasks, but the going back and forth was what killed them. They might have done better if they had just doggedly stuck with one of the tasks.
> It didn't have to look voluntary. "Oops! I can't believe we just passed right by the bell the second time! How silly are we to forget that?"  Might work, but probably not.
> I think it was a two hour penalty that time wasn't it? Worked for Rob, but it would be too long in this case I think.


I think it 2 (or 4) hours from when the next team arrived. Romber made it work for them by convincing the next team to also skip the task. They knew they would have a team behind them.

I thought I have heard they have since changed the rules to a more severe time penalty (24 hours is mentioned earlier) to avoid another Romber move.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

appleye1 said:


> I think it was a two hour penalty that time wasn't it? Worked for Rob, but it would be too long in this case I think.


Yep. If they had chosen that immediately, I suspect they would have been fine Erika took over 2 hour on the bells and then they forgot the bikes. There were way more than 2 hour late. But, that assumes you know early that you can't to it. Also, we now find out the penalty was 24 hour which was unsurvivable regardless. Sad.



Spoiler



Hope next weeks recurrence of the hay challenge has a better outcome than last time.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I'm glad the poker girls are gone; and I'm glad they got to find out that the brothers were gay before they were eliminated.
> 
> But I did feel sorry for them; even if I thought their technique in both the farmer golf and the bell-ring were pretty pathetic, particularly from Maria. I was actually kind of hoping they would be at the bell-ring for long enough that another team would come along and maybe they would see how to swing the sledge.


I disliked them originally, but they've played a good came lately and been very nice. I think Maria was generally useless but pleasant and Tiffany really grew to be pretty likable.


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## jneugeba (Jan 20, 2004)

I too thought the bell ringing at a dancing challenge was unfair. I think they were fun to watch and am sad they are gone.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

The eat-meat with Romber challenge had a four-hour penalty for choosing not to finish. IIRC, Rob knew what the penalty was going to be when he decided not to finish as a strategy. At that point, he knew that he only had to convince one other team to also decide not to finish, and that became his task.

I've never been a fan of the poker girls and I'm glad they are gone, but I agree with the comments above that the tasks seemed sort of unfair. Both tasks involved physical strength and that really stacked the deck against any all-female team.

Usually the detour has one challenge that does not require brute strength (endurance maybe), but even with the "easy" task of dancing, they put that stupid bell in there that had nothing to do with the task. That made no sense and was pretty unfair. I don't think I would have had the patience to try 71 times. _71!!_ And Tiffany came pretty close a few times. That must have been so frustrating. I felt bad for them, when they were really hanging in there and trying so hard, until they knew it was pointless.

The time penalties for various infractions seem pretty inconsistent to me. I've seen every season of TAR and I can't anticipate what the penalties are going to be for various things. 30 minutes here, four hours there . . . I hope the racers are given a thorough list of what the penalties are. If the penalty for not ringing the bell was only 30 minutes (like Zebra's not riding bikes penalty), I can't imagine why the poker girls didn't just take that penalty and move on to the dance. I think they would have had plenty of time to stay in the race if they had done that.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Anubys said:


> what was to stop her from going back every 5 seconds with a new number?
> 
> just start from 45 and keep adding 1 until he says "yes"...


I don't see why they couldn't, the girls didn't even count them they guy told her the number.

I have to admit Tiffany Michelle wasn't 1/10 as annoying as she was on WSOP.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

appleye1 said:


> They got the severe penalty though because they quit the detour altogether. That was stupid. If they had just skipped the bell and mallet thing, and went on to the dancing, the penalty likely would be much less severe.
> 
> Brian and Erica skipped the bicycle ride part of the clue and only got a half an hour penalty. I have no idea what the girl's penalty would have been, but if the girls only got a half an hour too and had done it early enough (like maybe the second time), it might have made a difference.


What Brian and Ericka skipped wasn't part of the detour, though, it was simply the means of getting to the detour. I'm guessing that if Tiffany and Maria had actually skipped part of the detour and then danced and ate the herring, the people would have refused to give them the clue because they hadn't completed the detour properly. It really came down to the fact that both options on this detour were wildly skewed against an all-girl team, especially one with two relatively weak girls. They tried hard and I applaud them for not giving up, but they really had no chance.


Cearbhaill said:


> I have to wonder, as Maria seemed particularly unable to figure out how to use it.
> Our heaviest maul is (I think) 12 lbs. and I (female) can swing it fairly well- it's all in the technique. She was trying to man handle it and didn't use gravity to help herself at all.
> 
> Now I certainly couldn't do it 20 times in a row with a 12 pounder- probably not even 10 good ones before my arms went jelly- so you'd have to make it count the first couple of times. But I doubt that one weighed more than 6-8 lbs which I can swing easily and really hard- and I'm old. Not sure what was up with Maria, but she sure never chopped wood before.


They needed to put one hand way up the handle and slide it down as the sledge hammer fell, rather than trying to get all the leverage from having both hands at the bottom of the handle. That was their problem.



Spoiler



I can't believe they're returning to the site of one of the most unfair eliminations in TAR history. They never should have had a challenge like that in the first place, let alone doing it a second time.


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## Andrew_S (Nov 12, 2001)

Magnolia88 said:


> they put that stupid bell in there that had nothing to do with the task. That made no sense and was pretty unfair.


Did the herring have any association with the dancing? Did swimming across a canal have anything to do with golfing? There was nothing "unfair" with ringing the bell. If it was a traditional dutch activity then it fit the task just fine.


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## zaknafein (Jul 17, 2001)

No one's mentioned yet that Sam/Dan (can't recall which told the girls the number of the bells!

I couldn't believe it. Why would you do that?


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Andrew_S said:


> Did the herring have any association with the dancing? Did swimming across a canal have anything to do with golfing? There was nothing "unfair" with ringing the bell if it was a traditional dutch activity.


But those tasks don't require _strength_. Pure brute strength. When one detour involves strength, the other one usually does not, so an all-girl team can actually have a chance to complete that one.

Y'all can talk all you want about leverage and technique, but I'm a girl and I don't think I would have had a chance in hell with that bell either. I don't think I would have had the patience to try it 71 times either. And the golf didn't sound so hard, but every girl who did it struggled to hit it hard and far enough. It seemed absolutely beyond what they were physically capable of doing (especially given the wind and cold).


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I don't think the bell thing was unfair - with the proper technique (as mentioned above in DevDog's post) they would have rang it no problem. Tiffany was almost able to do it without even swinging correctly.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

zaknafein said:


> No one's mentioned yet that Sam/Dan (can't recall which told the girls the number of the bells!
> 
> I couldn't believe it. Why would you do that?


They said why. They were helping the team they knew they could beat if it ever came down to that.


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## FireMen2003 (Apr 1, 2004)

KyleLC said:


> I think the problem was that he had the door open. He was doing everything else you mentioned.


the door was still open when the gentleman was their with his son.

I believe, the trick is, you have to push the inward or the button on the end then down...


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## Andrew_S (Nov 12, 2001)

Why did the girls not check into Elimination Station? Too long a flight from The Netherlands? The eliminated teams don't speak very highly of the girls.


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

Andrew_S said:


> Did the herring have any association with the dancing? Did swimming across a canal have anything to do with golfing? There was nothing "unfair" with ringing the bell. If it was a traditional dutch activity then it fit the task just fine.


According to Toine, who is from the Netherlands, while all the things they did are Dutch things, they're not normally done together. Yes, there's a farmers dance. Do they eat herring right after? Probably. The Dutch eat herring all the time. Do they ring the bell before dancing? Maybe.

This task took place at a braderie, which is a mini street fair. We didn't see the whole area around the place, but Toine was pretty convinced by what he did see that they must also have had other street fair type attractions that weren't shown. He said anything is possible at a braderie, so the challenge was set up that way, even though in normal experiences, Dutch people typically don't do them all at once.

As for the farmer's golf, that's not a longstanding Dutch game. It was created in 1999 by a Dutch farmer. Toine had never seen it, since he's been in the States since 1995. It's not unusual for farmers to cross over the canals to get to their fields. Do they always swim it? Not likely.

deb


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## Zephyr (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm guessing that the poker girls were in some kind of severe state of exhaustion when they made the decision to quit. I could appreciate that "quitting" made for the only remedy out of that cold, soaking wet mess. I too thought "unfair" at first but really most of the others faced some severe hardships with those tasks so all in all, fair race! And did you ever think the Trotters would count the bells, learn the dance, and down the fish? Not I.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I don't understand why every leg is starting >12 hours than when they arrived. I liked it when they left in the middle of the night sometimes. Also, are they required to use certain airlines? Dubai>Amsterdam is about a 8 hour flight, but why couldn't they connect in say Paris or another large hub? I just looked on travelocity and there was a flight leaving at 3pm that got in the night before everyone.


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## YCantAngieRead (Nov 5, 2003)

I really see why my brother loved the Netherlands so much. It's really a colorful and beautiful place.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

Maui said:


> They said why. They were helping the team they knew they could beat if it ever came down to that.


That was their explanation in the voice over, but if you listen to them "live" the guy that gave them the number seemed kind of surprised that he did it rather like "I wasn't thinking at the time".

Now, why have a 24 hour penalty if you can't apply it? What's the point if you're just going to inform the team "you have a 24 hour penalty and we believe there's no way you'll make it up so you're eliminated." If there's a 24 hour penalty, then let them at least try. I realize the logistics of that would be a nightmare but don't create a 24 hours penalty if you can't actually use it.

Bell-ringing, unfair. Women simply don't have upper body strength. We have leg strength. I wonder how much the "golf" balls weighed?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

The bell ringing isn't about strength. It's about physics. Yes, a man can simply swing it down in one swoop and do it, but if any of you have actually seen someone swing an axe, you'd know how to do it.

Here's a youtube on how to do it:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

wendiness1 said:


> That was their explanation in the voice over, but if you listen to them "live" the guy that gave them the number seemed kind of surprised that he did it rather like "I wasn't thinking at the time".
> 
> Now, why have a 24 hour penalty if you can't apply it? What's the point if you're just going to inform the team "you have a 24 hour penalty and we believe there's no way you'll make it up so you're eliminated." If there's a 24 hour penalty, then let them at least try. I realize the logistics of that would be a nightmare but don't create a 24 hours penalty if you can't actually use it.
> 
> Bell-ringing, unfair. Women simply don't have upper body strength. We have leg strength. I wonder how much the "golf" balls weighed?


the golf balls were blown rather easily by the wind...so I doubt they weighed much...

I also don't understand a 24 hour penalty...


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I don't understand why every leg is starting >12 hours than when they arrived. I liked it when they left in the middle of the night sometimes. Also, are they required to use certain airlines? Dubai>Amsterdam is about a 8 hour flight, but why couldn't they connect in say Paris or another large hub? I just looked on travelocity and there was a flight leaving at 3pm that got in the night before everyone.


I said the same thing to Toine. In the past, if they're required to be on a specific airline or on one of 2 or 3 specific flights, we hear it in a voice over or even when a team reads their clue. That didn't happen this time and all teams seems content to wait it out until their flight, so they must've known something the viewers didn't.

deb


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I did hear someone at the Dubai airport say they needed a *nonstop* flight to Amsterdam. Maybe that was how the producers forced an equalizer.


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## mike_k (Sep 20, 2005)

zaknafein said:


> No one's mentioned yet that Sam/Dan (can't recall which told the girls the number of the bells!
> 
> I couldn't believe it. Why would you do that?


The girls helped them with the gold weighing task last week. If it wasn't for their help I don't think the math challenged boys would have ever come up with the right answer.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

wendiness1 said:


> Now, why have a 24 hour penalty if you can't apply it? What's the point if you're just going to inform the team "you have a 24 hour penalty and we believe there's no way you'll make it up so you're eliminated." If there's a 24 hour penalty, then let them at least try. I realize the logistics of that would be a nightmare but don't create a 24 hours penalty if you can't actually use it.


I think there were circumstances involved with the girls. I believe that they had their health in mind.

Phil actually went to the field where they were instead of them going to Phil. That makes me believe that they were still attempting to finish even after Erika and Brian checked in following their penalty. Tiffany mentioned in the 
link I posted earlier that EMTs on set had to check them out during the second golfing stint and made Tiffany wear the long sleeve garment she had on at the end. She was apparently shaking incontrollably and they were concerned about hypothermia.

I have a feeling based on all of that they might have gone preemptively to Tiffany and Maria and said "No matter what happens, whether you finish the detour or not, you have been eliminated. What do you want to do?"


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

zaknafein said:


> No one's mentioned yet that Sam/Dan (can't recall which told the girls the number of the bells!
> 
> I couldn't believe it. Why would you do that?


They'd rather compete against them than either the all guy teams. When they did that they were in front of both the trotters and the father son teams. If that allowed on of those to lose it was a good move.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

pdhenry said:


> I did hear someone at the Dubai airport say they needed a *nonstop* flight to Amsterdam. Maybe that was how the producers forced an equalizer.


I noticed the same thing and commented to my wife that they asked for the wrong thing there. They wanted the flight that got them to Amsterdam the earliest. There has to be something in the rules or the clues that we don't know that makes them take flights like this.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

debtoine said:


> I said the same thing to Toine. In the past, if they're required to be on a specific airline or on one of 2 or 3 specific flights, we hear it in a voice over or even when a team reads their clue. That didn't happen this time and all teams seems content to wait it out until their flight, so they must've known something the viewers didn't.
> 
> deb


I assume this was a 24 hour stop as there was no use in making it shorter. All flight TO Europe from Asia leave near midnight to arrive in Europe in the morning. If they left at 1 in the morning from the pit stop, they would miss that days flights and have to wait nearly 24 hours. Why not let them sleep in when you can? I'm sure the crew welcomed the extra rest as well.



BrandonRe said:


> I noticed the same thing and commented to my wife that they asked for the wrong thing there. They wanted the flight that got them to Amsterdam the earliest. There has to be something in the rules or the clues that we don't know that makes them take flights like this.


Same problem. Regardless of whether you stop or not. For scheduling as I noted above, most flights leave late at night. When the flights arrive in Europe the people often need to meet other flights so flights from the west ( US, Canada, SA ) and east ( Japan, China, India ) all arrive to facilitate that exchange. Same as we do here.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> I assume this was a 24 hour stop as there was no use in making it shorter. All flight TO Europe from Asia leave near midnight to arrive in Europe in the morning. If they left at 1 in the morning from the pit stop, they would miss that days flights and have to wait nearly 24 hours. Why not let them sleep in when you can? I'm sure the crew welcomed the extra rest as well.
> 
> Same problem. Regardless of whether you stop or not. For scheduling as I noted above, most flights leave late at night. When the flights arrive in Europe the people often need to meet other flights so flights from the west ( US, Canada, SA ) and east ( Japan, China, India ) all arrive to facilitate that exchange. Same as we do here.


I'm not sure I'm following you. The rest time was over. They had to wait for hours in the airport for the flight they were all on. The specific question they asked was for the next non-stop flight to Amsterdam. My argument is that they need to ask for the flight which would get them to Amsterdam the earliest. Could be the same flight, but could very well be different when you are talking about hours of waiting in the airport for the outbound flight.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Magnolia88 said:


> I've never been a fan of the poker girls and I'm glad they are gone, but I agree with the comments above that the tasks seemed sort of unfair. Both tasks involved physical strength and that really stacked the deck against any all-female team.
> 
> The time penalties for various infractions seem pretty inconsistent to me. I've seen every season of TAR and I can't anticipate what the penalties are going to be for various things. 30 minutes here, four hours there . . . I hope the racers are given a thorough list of what the penalties are. If the penalty for not ringing the bell was only 30 minutes (like Zebra's not riding bikes penalty), I can't imagine why the poker girls didn't just take that penalty and move on to the dance. I think they would have had plenty of time to stay in the race if they had done that.


On the surface both tasks could seem physical but I actually think both of them were not physical at all just different teqniques. As others pointed out if you swing the mallet properly you don't have to have much strength at all, the weight of the mallet itself does the work for you. Also in the Farmer's golf physical strength was actually playing against a number of the teams as they would get lift on the ball which then was easily blown by the wind. It was probably better to hit lower shallower shots then to try to put a significant amount of power behind the ball and watch it curve significantly.

In regards to the time penalties the reason they may seem so different is because of different legs of the races. I am sure the producers come up with a list of penalties and times before hand for each leg to be fair but it is on a number of factors such as location from one task to another (or the pit stop) etc. Like others said it may have been that if the bell was skipped before the dancing the poker girls may have not been able to even start learning the dance or may be told to go back and ring the bell before receving the next clue, they also may have been issued a time penalty. Also the producers don't want to print out a list of time penalties because I am sure they want the contestants to attempt all the tasks (rather then thinking they have at least a 30 min lead and the task will take 10 min so might as well just skip it and get the 30 min penalty) as well as in this ep team Zebra would then have another reminder (besides the clue) to use bikes.



IJustLikeTivo said:


> I assume this was a 24 hour stop as there was no use in making it shorter. All flight TO Europe from Asia leave near midnight to arrive in Europe in the morning. If they left at 1 in the morning from the pit stop, they would miss that days flights and have to wait nearly 24 hours. Why not let them sleep in when you can? I'm sure the crew welcomed the extra rest as well.


The reason I am sure they don't want the teams sleeping in when they can or having them "rest" at the airport is because it creates more drama which in turn could lead to better TV. People are tired, cranky, etc. and so then they start to ave a shorter fuse and you get great clips like the ox being broken.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I just reread Tiffany's blog post again and came across this



Tiffany Michelle said:


> Between the dinger and golf challenge we spent over THREE HOURS attempting both challenges, in soaking wet clothing, in stormy, windy, freezing weather giving our best efforts between the two! You could tell on TV but the hammer for the dinner was over 40lobs!


I have a feeling that last sentence is probably "You couldn't tell on TV but the hammer for the dinger was over 40lbs"

That may be an exaggeration but if it is true I definitely see why they may have had some troubles.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

BrandonRe said:


> I'm not sure I'm following you. The rest time was over. They had to wait for hours in the airport for the flight they were all on. The specific question they asked was for the next non-stop flight to Amsterdam. My argument is that they need to ask for the flight which would get them to Amsterdam the earliest. Could be the same flight, but could very well be different when you are talking about hours of waiting in the airport for the outbound flight.


My point is this. Leaving from Dubai to Amsterdam, all flights to Europe will leave at or just after midnight. I did a quick search on United.

These are the flights from Dubai to Skipol.

1:50am 9:20am FRA 10h30m UA8747-UA9147 343/733	Info 
1:50am 10:15am FRA 11h25m UA8747-UA9161 343/735	Info

Here is Frankfurt

1:50am 5:50am 7h00m UA8747 343	Info

In this case, all flights on United go via Frankfurt which matches their route maps. Interestingly, I tried to search travelocity and it says you can't go from AHU to AMS.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> My point is this. Leaving from Dubai to Amsterdam, all flights to Europe will leave at or just after midnight. I did a quick search on United.
> 
> These are the flights from Dubai to Skipol.
> 
> ...


I don't think abu dhabi was an option...why are you limiting yourself to united? From travelocity:


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## jneugeba (Jan 20, 2004)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> My point is this. Leaving from Dubai to Amsterdam, all flights to Europe will leave at or just after midnight. I did a quick search on United.
> 
> These are the flights from Dubai to Skipol.
> 
> ...


This is partly correct, but not totally. DXB is Dubai's airport code, which is a much larger airport than AUH, which is Abu Dhabi. While most flights going to Europe leave DXB after midnight, there are plenty throughout the day. I have a feeling the clue said it had to be a non-stop flight.


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## cheerdude (Feb 27, 2001)

AHU ? That's Al Hoceima, Morocco ... unless I'm missing something.


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## Ment (Mar 27, 2008)

Maui said:


> I have a feeling that last sentence is probably "You couldn't tell on TV but the hammer for the dinger was over 40lbs"
> 
> That may be an exaggeration but if it is true I definitely see why they may have had some troubles.


Definitely exaggerated, even a large sledgehammer is around ~20-25lbs and that looked like a standard sized head. No doubt it felt like 40lbs after they swung it incorrectly the 70th time.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cheerdude said:


> AHU ? That's Al Hoceima, Morocco ... unless I'm missing something.


Abu dhabi, UAE.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

The girls screwed up by going back to the bell the second time. Once they did it the first time, they had to be smart enough to realize they had no chance to do it, and with every attempt it became less and less likely. Once they got the golf they should have stuck with it and they would have finished it. The going back and forth killed them. The golf was not an impossible task for them, getting past the bell was. Going back and forth made everything impossible.


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## Marc (Jun 26, 1999)

I was surprised about a couple of things from this week's episode.

First, and this isn't new, it appears that they may have completely abandoned the concept of a predetermined, fixed-time for the pit stops. Phil's voice-over hasn't bothered to mention the time at which the teams arrived, and they're obviously leaving during the same part of the day that they arrived (arrived during daytime, left during daytime). It might be assumed that it's a 24-hour (or multiple of) pit stop, but they aren't saying that. All we know is that they aren't using the 12-hour pit stops they had been.

The other was that I was surprised that they didn't include the formality of the Philimination. I was expecting Phil to say "I'm sorry, but you've been eliminated from the race," but they seemed to let that pass by the team's own admission that they were going to be eliminated.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

marksman said:


> The girls screwed up by going back to the bell the second time. Once they did it the first time, they had to be smart enough to realize they had no chance to do it, and with every attempt it became less and less likely. Once they got the golf they should have stuck with it and they would have finished it. The going back and forth killed them. The golf was not an impossible task for them, getting past the bell was. Going back and forth made everything impossible.


yet their best attempt was one in the 70's attempted range - so close. They should have kept trying as they were just a little off of hitting the bell.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

The producers probably needed a bunch up on this leg because there was probably a limited window to do the dance task as well as not wanting the golf task to be done in the dark. So they told them they had to take a direct flight, knowing that the only one was at midnight.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

Maui said:


> I give them all the credit in the world for attempting to ring that bell over 70 times until they apparently had blisters on their hands.


I don't.  How can you possibly try and ring the bell that many times and not attempt to figure out what technique it possibly can be that you're not doing correctly? A couple times the non-useless one got pretty close, but most of the time she wasn't putting any momentum in it, barely lifting the hammer over her head, etc, and the other one barely just let the hammer drop out of her hands onto it.

All that being said, I could not believe that they didn't just skip it and take the penalty for not doing it. Judging by the 30 min penalty the zebra team got for not riding the bikes, they'd probably have made it with time to spare.

Edit: Oops, I smeeked.  I didn't see that the penalty for skipping the bell was 24 hours. I still think they suck at figuring out how to swing a hammer, though.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

No, the penalty for skipping the entire detour was 24 hours. I Imagine skipping the bell would be less. However it happened, I think this goes to show that only the teams that can think outside the box have any chance of making it. Of course I would have loved to see the previously eliminated team try to swim across that channel.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Well, the previously eliminated team had brought their floaties/water wings so there might not have been an issue. Did the teams that rang the bell have to go swimming also? I don't remember it well enough.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> Did the teams that rang the bell have to go swimming also? I don't remember it well enough.


No. The swimming went with the golf. The bell-ringing went with the dancing.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Sirius Black said:


> Well, the previously eliminated team had brought their floaties/water wings so there might not have been an issue. Did the teams that rang the bell have to go swimming also? I don't remember it well enough.


Also the poker girls did have life jackets but it looked like others opted not to wear/use them.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wendiness1 said:


> Now, why have a 24 hour penalty if you can't apply it? What's the point if you're just going to inform the team "you have a 24 hour penalty and we believe there's no way you'll make it up so you're eliminated." If there's a 24 hour penalty, then let them at least try. I realize the logistics of that would be a nightmare but don't create a 24 hours penalty if you can't actually use it.


The point of the 24-hour penalty is to deter teams from thinking they can outsmart the game. Take a penalty, you'll be eliminated. It's as simple as that. They don't want people gaming the system like Rob did, and there's no way they want any teams to be a day behind like the Guidos in S1, so they've made the penalty something that no team would voluntarily accept.


IJustLikeTivo said:


> I assume this was a 24 hour stop as there was no use in making it shorter. All flight TO Europe from Asia leave near midnight to arrive in Europe in the morning. If they left at 1 in the morning from the pit stop, they would miss that days flights and have to wait nearly 24 hours. Why not let them sleep in when you can? I'm sure the crew welcomed the extra rest as well.


Except that they did just the opposite in an earlier episode this season. All the teams left the pit stop in the evening, only to arrive at the airport and learn that the first flight was around noon. I asked in the thread for that episode why the producers didn't just let them sleep at the pit stop and then go to the airport in the morning, since clearly the intention was to have a bunch up and have them all on the same flight.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> No, the penalty for skipping the entire detour was 24 hours. I Imagine skipping the bell would be less. However it happened, I think this goes to show that only the teams that can think outside the box have any chance of making it. Of course I would have loved to see the previously eliminated team try to swim across that channel.


How many times have we seen teams attempt to get a clue after finishing a task, only to be informed that the task wasn't completed correctly and not be given the clue? I think that's what would have happened if the girls tried to do the dancing, eat the herring, and then asked for their clue.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

KyleLC said:


> Someone mentioned Sandra Bullock in a previous thread. To me she looks like she could be her sister or cousin, but of course not nearly as good looking as Sandra.


On the link that Maui posted:

http://www.tiffanymichelle.com/Tiffany_Michelle/Blog/Entries/2009/11/1_Amazing_Race_-_Amsterdam.html

She looks just like Sandra Bullock at the top of the page.


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> These are the flights from Dubai to Skipol.


[nitpick]

If they try to get to Skipol, they'll never arrive in the Netherlands. That airport is called Schiphol. 

[/nitpick]

deb


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I honestly thought Phil was going to tell Erika and Brian that they had to go back and ride the bycycles that distance and then report back to the pit stop.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> These are the flights from Dubai to Skipol.
> 
> 1:50am 9:20am FRA 10h30m UA8747-UA9147 343/733	Info
> 1:50am 10:15am FRA 11h25m UA8747-UA9161 343/735	Info
> ...


With those flight numbers, those aren't actually United flights -- I bet they're Lufthansa.

United does have actual service to Dubai, but I think it's only one flight a day to Washington-Dulles.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> The point of the 24-hour penalty is to deter teams from thinking they can outsmart the game. *Take a penalty, you'll be eliminated. *It's as simple as that. They don't want people gaming the system like Rob did, and there's no way they want any teams to be a day behind like the Guidos in S1, so they've made the penalty something that no team would voluntarily accept.


That's sort of my point. Why say it's a penalty if the penalty is an automatic elimination? The bottom line is, then, if you don't complete a challenge you are automatically eliminated.

I also have to wonder if it's fair to eliminate or force a team to quit if their safety or health is at risk due to weather conditions. That just doesn't seem right.

I'm thinking this may have been a non-elimination leg. Otherwise why wouldn't Phil have simply said "you're the last team and you're eliminated". Didn't they do that a few times before (haystack challenge, scarab challenge)?


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Einselen said:


> I understand not reading the clue and all but shouldn't a penalty be for gaining an unfair advantage?


If the clue did say take a bike, I'm glad they got penalized for not following directions. I wonder if their penalty would have been longer if they had not "borrowed" the bikes for the last part.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

ElJay said:


> If the clue did say take a bike, I'm glad they got penalized for not following directions. I wonder if their penalty would have been longer if they had not "borrowed" the bikes for the last part.


Where is an unfair advantage of walking over the bikes? To me they got double penalized for taking the slower mode of transportation (walking) and then on top of that getting a time penalty for doing the task slower. Luckily it didn't matter (and I would have not cried if it did) I just found it as a useless penalty.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

No ladies tees in Farmer's Golf?


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I don't think abu dhabi was an option...why are you limiting yourself to united? From travelocity:


That was just an example. As you see in your example it still leaves about the same time.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that they did just the opposite in an earlier episode this season. All the teams left the pit stop in the evening, only to arrive at the airport and learn that the first flight was around noon. I asked in the thread for that episode why the producers didn't just let them sleep at the pit stop and then go to the airport in the morning, since clearly the intention was to have a bunch up and have them all on the same flight.


All rest stops are some multiple of 12 hours. Normally 12 or 36 but it certainly appears this was 24. Not sure why. In your case, another 12 would have resulted in 18 hours wait.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

debtoine said:


> [nitpick]
> 
> If they try to get to Skipol, they'll never arrive in the Netherlands. That airport is called Schiphol.
> 
> ...


Oddly, I knew that but zoned out trying to spell it and gave up rather than look it up.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

trainman said:


> With those flight numbers, those aren't actually United flights -- I bet they're Lufthansa.
> 
> United does have actual service to Dubai, but I think it's only one flight a day to Washington-Dulles.


No doubt. I used united since I had their web site in my browser at the time.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Einselen said:


> Where is an unfair advantage of walking over the bikes? To me they got double penalized for taking the slower mode of transportation (walking) and then on top of that getting a time penalty for doing the task slower. Luckily it didn't matter (and I would have not cried if it did) I just found it as a useless penalty.


Oh I certainly I agree they were effectively "double penalized" for ignoring the bikes, but that's their own fault. I feel that failing to follow the directions should be penalized no matter what the outcome of was of their ignorance. That's the only fair way to do it since the time difference from failing to follow the directions is not easy to calculate.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

wendiness1 said:


> That's sort of my point. Why say it's a penalty if the penalty is an automatic elimination? The bottom line is, then, if you don't complete a challenge you are automatically eliminated.


In this instance, it was an automatic elimination, but what if two teams decided they weren't able to complete the challenge and skipped it? The first team would get a 24-hour penalty but still be able to move on to the next leg of the race. Only the last team to give up on the challenge would be eliminated.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Einselen said:


> Where is an unfair advantage of walking over the bikes? To me they got double penalized for taking the slower mode of transportation (walking) and then on top of that getting a time penalty for doing the task slower. Luckily it didn't matter (and I would have not cried if it did) I just found it as a useless penalty.


The penalty was for not following the directions in the clue. It had nothing to do with getting an unfair advantage.


IJustLikeTivo said:


> All rest stops are some multiple of 12 hours. Normally 12 or 36 but it certainly appears this was 24. Not sure why. In your case, another 12 would have resulted in 18 hours wait.


In the past, the pit stops have been 12 or 36 hours. However, this season they seem to have abandoned that and have been releasing the teams from the pit stop at some arbitrary time. The "arbitraryness" usually results in all the tasks being done in the daylight hours, or all the teams getting on the same flight, etc. My point in an earlier thread was that if they're just choosing some random, arbitrary time, why not let the teams sleep at the pit stop rather than releasing them at 10 pm only to then spend the night at the airport? In this thread, I was simply using that previous episode to counter your argument that they must have determined the arbitrary release times by letting the teams and crews sleep in.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> The penalty was for not following the directions in the clue. It had nothing to do with getting an unfair advantage.


But penalties are enacted in most competitions to enact safety or to penalize a team for trying to cheat when it could result in giving an unfair advantage. I don't see how walking over biking will ever give an unfair advantage unless the bikes tires were low on air, they had to assemble the bike, etc. Last season there was the rickshaw which had low tires, I believe possible the clue said (I can't recall if it did or not) that there were pumps available. None of the teams that didn't pump up their tires occurred a penalty (though the brothers did for tampering with the equipment and maybe that is why no one else bothered to pump up the tires). IMHO the 30 min penalty at the end was a little unfair/excessive as they had already been penalized for walking the first half of that leg. I know it is for not following the rules but I feel due to not following the rules they are already penalized. It would be like if a team completed both detours (without having a U-Turn) and then them saying you only had to do one task and since you successfully completed both you have to wait 1 hour.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> The penalty was for not following the directions in the clue. It had nothing to do with getting an unfair advantage.
> 
> In the past, the pit stops have been 12 or 36 hours. However, this season they seem to have abandoned that and have been releasing the teams from the pit stop at some arbitrary time. The "arbitraryness" usually results in all the tasks being done in the daylight hours, or all the teams getting on the same flight, etc. My point in an earlier thread was that if they're just choosing some random, arbitrary time, why not let the teams sleep at the pit stop rather than releasing them at 10 pm only to then spend the night at the airport? In this thread, I was simply using that previous episode to counter your argument that they must have determined the arbitrary release times by letting the teams and crews sleep in.


If they have completely abandoned it I would agree but I believe they are still more or less using the 12 hour multiple.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> What Brian and Ericka skipped wasn't part of the detour, though, it was simply the means of getting to the detour.


(haven't read whole thread)

But in the past, there was a team that got in trouble because they had a cab help them, right? (I think it was even a case of 'pay the cab to drive in front of me so I can follow'..) Which seems similar to me..

I think they should have gotten a penalty for not using the SUPPLIED bikes up AND back. Heck, they could have even used the BORROWED bike to get back to the supplied bikes, and then just rode back to the detour and back immediately.. IMHO that would then still warrant a VERY small penalty (since the detour does give the order of things you're supposed to do things in -- ride bike there, then do X Y Z, ride bike back).

Tiffany seems relatively huge to me - I'm amazed she couldn't ring the bell.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

Einselen said:


> But penalties are enacted in most competitions to enact safety or to penalize a team for trying to cheat when it could result in giving an unfair advantage.


A big part of TAR is _reading the clue_ and following what it says.

Following the rules is a part of any game, and breaking a rule usually incurs a penalty, regardless of whether there is any "unfair advantage." (I'm thinking of gymnasts who land with one pinky toe outside the bounds of the mat. Huge deduction! It's the _rule_!)

The problem with your theory (no penalty unless there is an "unfair advantage" gained from not doing the task as written) is that the producers have no way of _knowing_ what kind of advantage or disadvantage a team gets when they don't follow the clue. Brian and Ericka appeared to have made a pretty bad choice when they walked instead of rode the bikes. They didn't _appear_ to have gained any time. But what if Ericka was totally unable to ride a bike? (It's possible.) What if, when they tried to ride the bikes, she fell off and scraped her leg, and sat on the ground crying? (_Definitely_ possible.)

There has to be some sort of penalty for failing to follow the clue, because it's just impossible to tell what would have happened to the team if they had done a task correctly. 30 minutes seems more than fair imho. And, if the producers can determine that a team did gain a time advantage based on how long it took other teams to actually do the task required, that time is added to the penalty. That again seems pretty fair to me. (Oh, Heather and Eve, lady lawyers, eliminated on a time penalty. I would have penalized them _more_ if it were up to me because they were so dumb and deliberately talked themselves out of following the clue.)

_ETA:_ What bugs me about the penalties is that they seem to be inconsistently applied. Sometimes Phil will say, "You are the x team to arrive, but you didn't complete the task as written. You must go back and do X before I can check you in." And sometimes he will say as he did to B/K, "you did not complete the task as written and will incur a 30-minute penalty." There was no reason that B/K could not have gone back and picked up a bike, and rode it the distance they were supposed to. And I don't see any consistent rhyme or reason when a penalty is given and when a team is told "go back and do it right before you can check in."


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## jneugeba (Jan 20, 2004)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> That was just an example. As you see in your example it still leaves about the same time.


Umm, noon is not about the same time as midnight.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Whoever said they would have just counted the levers in front of the guy is genius!


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Magnolia88 said:


> A big part of TAR is _reading the clue_ and following what it says.
> 
> Following the rules is a part of any game, and breaking a rule usually incurs a penalty, regardless of whether there is any "unfair advantage." (I'm thinking of gymnasts who land with one pinky toe outside the bounds of the mat. Huge deduction! It's the _rule_!)
> 
> The problem with your theory (no penalty unless there is an "unfair advantage" gained from not doing the task as written) is that the producers have no way of _knowing_ what kind of advantage or disadvantage a team gets when they don't follow the clue. Brian and Ericka appeared to have made a pretty bad choice when they walked instead of rode the bikes. They didn't _appear_ to have gained any time. But what if Ericka was totally unable to ride a bike? (It's possible.) What if, when they tried to ride the bikes, she fell off and scraped her leg, and sat on the ground crying? (_Definitely_ possible.)


As far as your gymnastic analogy goes it is the rule but the person sticking their pinky toe outside the bounds of the mat is getting an unfair advantage by having more room to dismount so therefore they are deducted points.

As far as the other examples go if someone didn't know how to ride a bike they would do the same thing they did, walk but this time pushing a bike that I don't think would really alter the outcome that much, fall off the bike though is possible so I can see that.

I did however think of a reason to penalize for not using the bikes. Say another team did the same thing of walking then noticing half way crap we need the bikes. They then go back and get the bikes and backtrack while team Zebra continues without the bikes. Team Zebra then did gain an unfair advantage which should be penalized. So even though Team Zebra did not gain an unfair advantage as no one else made the same mistake as them it is possible so a penalty should be enacted in case a team did pull a stunt like theirs (say the poker players left the bikes started running on foot and then noticed they needed the bikes and ran back for them)


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

Einselen said:


> As far as your gymnastic analogy goes it is the rule but the person sticking their pinky toe outside the bounds of the mat is getting an unfair advantage by having more room to dismount so therefore they are deducted points.
> 
> As far as the other examples go if someone didn't know how to ride a bike they would do the same thing they did, walk but this time pushing a bike that I don't think would really alter the outcome that much, fall off the bike though is possible so I can see that.


They were penalized for not following the rules. They can't really make 'judgment calls' on whether people have some sort of 'advantage' for not doing what the clue says. It's a competition for money and the producers have to ensure the contestants follow the rules they have laid out ahead of time.

Also, for a show always playing up the 'will this be the first all-girl team to win?' angle, a big :down: for including that stupid bell task. Completely unfair.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

jneugeba said:


> Umm, noon is not about the same time as midnight.


Doh, missed that. FWIW, that would be equally useless though. Getting to amsterdam at 10 at night would result in waiting till morning, same result.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

pmyers said:


> Whoever said they would have just counted the levers in front of the guy is genius!


That wouldn't help. There isn't a one to one correlation as they are often connected to a set of bells to make one tone. Since you slap the levers ( technically called Batons) you can't really hit more than one or two like a piano, hence the need for chording. Additionally, the larger bells are usually played by the feet.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> The bell ringing isn't about strength. It's about physics. Yes, a man can simply swing it down in one swoop and do it, but if any of you have actually seen someone swing an axe, you'd know how to do it.
> 
> Here's a youtube on how to do it:


I haven't heard that song in a while. 

So that's the right way, eh? I guess I learned by default, as I couldn't swing it hard enough without letting my hand slide down. Don't most people learn by trial and error rather than being taught?

I gotta wonder what brain fart Ericka had on the bells. Everyone else appeared to do it easily on the first try.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Maui said:


> I just reread Tiffany's blog post again and came across this
> 
> I have a feeling that last sentence is probably "You couldn't tell on TV but the hammer for the dinger was over 40lbs"
> 
> That may be an exaggeration but if it is true I definitely see why they may have had some troubles.


Yeah, no way it was 40 pounds.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

pmyers said:


> Whoever said they would have just counted the levers in front of the guy is genius!


Except there might be a level that rings two bells at once, or one that dampens the sound of any other bell, etc.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Roadblock said:


> Also, for a show always playing up the 'will this be the first all-girl team to win?' angle, a big :down: for including that stupid bell task. Completely unfair.


Just curious here, for the people saying the mallet/bell task was unfair to the 2 girls would you still feel that way if:

There had been a woman of similar size and weight of the girls, who could have walked up and dinged the bell as easy as the men?

I agree with others in the thread that the girls could have done it had they used proper technique.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I don't think it was unfair, but it was bad fortune for the girls. If they'd stopped and done some analysis on the problem of swinging the hammer, they might have figured out how to get it done.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

SeanC said:


> Just curious here, for the people saying the mallet/bell task was unfair to the 2 girls would you still feel that way if:
> 
> There had been a woman of similar size and weight of the girls, who could have walked up and dinged the bell as easy as the men?


Yes, absolutely. I would still feel the same way.

It doesn't matter to me that there are females out there who could have hit that bell, of course there are. Rebecca (of Rebecca and Adam fame) is a tiny girl who would have knocked the hell out of it.

But that's not the point. I think a detour should be designed so that one of the tasks does not depend upon physical strength. The race is so heavily in favor of the young and strong (and male) all the way around, but the detour is supposed to be a choice between two tasks, each with its own pros and cons. One of the tasks should be able to be completed, no matter how old or weak or feeble a team is physically, through brains, persistence, patience, whatever.

It's The Amazing Race, not The Amazing Feats of Strength. The earlier seasons had a lot more tasks that relied on brains, and "clues" that were actually clues that you had to figure out rather than "go here by foot," but as the show has gone on, the tasks in later seasons have become more and more about strength and brawn. Which is one of the main reasons why an all-female team has never won nor anyone over 50. It's not just that the race is grueling, it's that the tasks are so overwhelmingly stacked against anyone who isn't a 25-year-old male.

I would love to see more tasks like that gold one, which was about "simple" math. (Not so simple to the big strong lugs who apparently never took algebra - they would have been lost without the poker girls on that one.) But those are very few and far between. It's all "carry this" and "hit this" and other stuff that is so heavily favored toward young men. Why can't we have more tasks like the gold one and the "Chekhov" one that actually favors someone who has an education?


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

the task was not (all) about physical strength - I believe that one could let gravity do its thing and if the hammer hit the spot in the proper manner it would ring the bell.

I have cousins who's family runs a county fair and they have contests on ringing the bell. They always claim it is not about strength but technique.

Don't get me wrong, strength would help for sure but not a requirement.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Magnolia88 said:


> Yes, absolutely. I would still feel the same way.
> 
> It doesn't matter to me that there are females out there who could have hit that bell, of course there are. Rebecca (of Rebecca and Adam fame) is a tiny girl who would have knocked the hell out of it.
> 
> But that's not the point. I think a detour should be designed so that one of the tasks does not depend upon physical strength. The race is so heavily in favor of the young and strong (and male) all the way around, but the detour is supposed to be a choice between two tasks, each with its own pros and cons. One of the tasks should be able to be completed, no matter how old or weak or feeble a team is physically, through brains, persistence, patience, whatever.


Well, that's what my question was trying to get at. If proper technique could have dinged the bell, then it's not a question of strength then, is it?



> I would love to see more tasks like that gold one, which was about "simple" math. (Not so simple to the big strong lugs who apparently never took algebra - they would have been lost without the poker girls on that one.) But those are very few and far between. It's all "carry this" and "hit this" and other stuff that is so heavily favored toward young men. Why can't we have more tasks like the gold one and the "Chekhov" one that actually favors someone who has an education?


Now this I agree with completely.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

If I am struggling to pick up the mallet and raise it over my head, gravity can't do a damn thing to help.

Sure, knowing the proper technique would be helpful but strength is a huge part of it. I'm sure if one is trained by a bell ringing expert on technique, then that would be a big help if you're not strong.

But the men didn't have to worry about "technique." They just picked it up and smashed it down, and it was done, no trouble at all. The girls tried 71 times. _71!!!_ (Well, Maria didn't really seem to be trying much, but Tiffany sure as heck was.)

Is technique part of a golf swing? Of course it is. But there is a reason why professional women golfers play from different tees than the men. In this case, the women were required to play from the men's tees on the golf challenge, and the women were required to use the men's mallet too.

Women bowlers don't use the same ball as male bowlers for the same reason. Does technique play a role in bowling? Of course it does. But don't expect me to have great technique if I'm forced to use a ball that is too damn heavy for me to pick up and swing it.


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## tem (Oct 6, 2003)

Magnolia88 said:


> In this case, the women were required to play from the men's tees on the golf challenge, and the women were required to use the men's mallet too.


not really a good analogy. Those "holes" couldn't have been more than 100-125 yards, which means that they needed to hit the ball less than 25 yeards each time. The other female seemed to be doing OK.

The problem was that the Chippies had no athletic skill whatsoever. Zero. they were whiffing or barely hitting a soccer ball. And that mallet couldn't have been all that heavy, either. Again, they didn't have the hand-eye coordination to even hit the plunger a lot of the time.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Magnolia88 said:


> If I am struggling to pick up the mallet and raise it over my head, gravity can't do a damn thing to help.


And you would be using poor technique. If you could lift the sledge at all you could successfully ring that bell. And the "technique" would take about as long to learn and be as difficult as, say, rowing a boat, which they managed to get by at previously.



> Sure, knowing the proper technique would be helpful but strength is a huge part of it. I'm sure if one is trained by a bell ringing expert on technique, then that would be a big help if you're not strong.


Momentum makes far more difference than brute strength as demonstrated by the ease with which everyone else rang the bell; and where would you find a "bell-ringing expert", anyway? The same place you might find a 'bike-riding" expert or a "bell-counting" expert, I suppose.



> But the men didn't have to worry about "technique." They just picked it up and smashed it down, and it was done, no trouble at all. The girls tried 71 times. _71!!!_ (Well, Maria didn't really seem to be trying much, but Tiffany sure as heck was.)


 If the men had swung the sledge the same way Tiffany and Maria did, they would not have rung the bell either; at least not on the first try. Just because they tried "71!!!" times does not make the task unfair; anymore than the bell counting was unfair because Erica couldn't count.



> Is technique part of a golf swing? Of course it is. But there is a reason why professional women golfers play from different tees than the men. In this case, the women were required to play from the men's tees on the golf challenge, and the women were required to use the men's mallet too.


You have no way of knowing that. For all we know they were playing from shorter tees and using a light sledge. And a first time golfer would struggle from the ladies or mens tees on a golf course, regardless of their gender.



> Women bowlers don't use the same ball as male bowlers for the same reason. Does technique play a role in bowling? Of course it does. But don't expect me to have great technique if I'm forced to use a ball that is too damn heavy for me to pick up and swing it.


That comparison is invalid on multiple levels; but for the sake of argument; a woman bowler would have no problem using a mans ball to bowl 1 frame well.


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## Magnolia88 (Jul 1, 2005)

tem said:


> The other female seemed to be doing OK.


Not from what I saw. Meghan seems pretty fit and strong and still struggled mightily with the golf. Even with Cheyne alternating with her, they still couldn't hit the first hole in 8 shots. There is no way Meghan would have been able to accomplish much on the golf without Cheyne.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> That comparison is invalid on multiple levels; but for the sake of argument; a woman bowler would have no problem using a mans ball to bowl 1 frame well.


I think it's an excellent comparison.

That said, momentum works, yes, but when you're lifting a weight over your head it's a lot harder to control momentem than if you're swinging something underhand. I think the girls had a distinct disadvantage.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

The girls should have tried a few times and realized that the task was hard, and needed a strategy to get through it. Just hitting the target with a good blow probably won't do it. Now think, how can we do this? How about momentum? How about an arc. So if we start with the mallet behind me, then swing it up in an arc, and on the downswing put some effort into it, that should be enough. Also, try a few times, then take a break. If you try to hit it 20-30 times in a row, you are going to wear yourself out and have no strength behind it. If you rest, you will regain at least some strength and have a better shot at it. The girls seemed to forget about strategy once they couldn't get it right away.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

wendiness1 said:


> I think it's an excellent comparison.


So then you agree that a woman bowler would have no problem bowling one frame with a heavier ball? Because that's the equivalent of what they were doing.



> That said, momentum works, yes, but when you're lifting a weight over your head it's a lot harder to control momentem than if you're swinging something underhand. I think the girls had a distinct disadvantage.


Their disadvantage was in knowledge of how to swing the hammer; not in strength. That's not anymore unfair than expecting the contestants to figure out how to row a boat or assemble a hookah pipe.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

I don't think being fit and strong really looked like it made any difference on the golf challenge. Those "golf balls" looked like they were giant wiffle balls.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

laria said:


> I don't think being fit and strong really looked like it made any difference on the golf challenge. Those "golf balls" looked like they were giant wiffle balls.


I agree. The golf challenge was the one that didn't require strength. It was about technique, which nobody knew at first. They all learned by trial and error. This wasn't regular golf, and regular golf techniques actually were counterproductive in this challenge.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

laria said:


> I don't think being fit and strong really looked like it made any difference on the golf challenge. Those "golf balls" looked like they were giant wiffle balls.


They looked like painted soccer balls to me.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> So then you agree that a woman bowler would have no problem bowling one frame with a heavier ball? Because that's the equivalent of what they were doing.


Not at all. I was saying that, while you thought it a poor comparison, I thought it was very good.

Seems to me that, in order to create enough momentum, one has to have upper body strength. Merely swinging it overhead with a minimum of strength is not going to succeed as well as doing so with a greater force, regardless of technique.


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## Mr Flippant (Jan 2, 2009)

I think if the producers were able to do it again they would have lost the bell. It was not necessary and was the wrong reason for a team to have lost that detour.

That said, I also believe that a team needs to go into the race realizing that they, must have some basic characteristics. They have got to have strength, intelligence/cunning, to have no fear of water, height and eat weird things, must be able to follow directions. Any deficit in these and some other attributes will have a team off the show in no time looking silly or pathetic. Unfortunately I think if the bell had not been there the poker team would go on but next week with the hay they probably would have failed, without tremendous luck.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

I agree. I think the producers were surprised that the bell-ringing was such a hurdle. I believe it was thrown in to be cute, not a real challenge.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

wendiness1 said:


> Not at all. I was saying that, while you thought it a poor comparison, I thought it was very good.


 So while you accept the comparison, you don't accept the logical extension of that comparison? Sounds like you just want to disagree.



> Seems to me that, in order to create enough momentum, one has to have upper body strength. Merely swinging it overhead with a minimum of strength is not going to succeed as well as doing so with a greater force, regardless of technique.


It is true that a stronger person could hit harder; but that additional force would not be relevant to ringing the bell.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

wendiness1 said:


> I agree. I think the producers were surprised that the bell-ringing was such a hurdle. I believe it was thrown in to be cute, not a real challenge.


How do you know what the producers felt?


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> How do you know what the producers felt?


Please note: I said "I think" and "I believe".

I'm not just being disagreeable for the fun of it. I think you misread my earlier response. When I said that I thought "it" an excellent comparison, I was referering to your "THAT comparison".

Why so touchy today?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

wendiness1 said:


> Not at all. I was saying that, while you thought it a poor comparison, I thought it was very good.
> 
> Seems to me that, in order to create enough momentum, one has to have upper body strength. Merely swinging it overhead with a minimum of strength is not going to succeed as well as doing so with a greater force, regardless of technique.


 If you can lift the mallet, you can swing it. It's physics.


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## wendiness1 (Jul 29, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> If you can lift the mallet, you can swing it. It's physics.


I'm not good at physics (I even have trouble spelling it). Isn't it possible that one could swing it with lesser force and, thus, achieve less impact? Or would it be the same regardless of how hard one swung it?

I know that if I lift a heavy object in front of me, I may not be able to manage it while holding it high over my shoulder. Doesn't that involve different muscles?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Yes, if you have more muscle, you could get more downward force, but I'm saying that I believe those bells can be rung with just the force of gravity and you assisting. Don't you agree that it would be trivially easy to put more downward force on a falling object?

Plus, you don't lift the mallet above your head and then swing. It's a momentum thing where you quite literally "swing" it up and then down. The weight of the mallet and the downward force you exert would be enough to ring it.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

wendiness1 said:


> I know that if I lift a heavy object in front of me, I may not be able to manage it while holding it high over my shoulder. Doesn't that involve different muscles?


You don't hold it high over your shoulder though, or even lift it. You swing it in a circle.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Mr Flippant said:


> That said, I also believe that a team needs to go into the race realizing that they, must have some basic characteristics. They have got to have strength, intelligence/cunning, to have no fear of water, height and eat weird things, must be able to follow directions. Any deficit in these and some other attributes will have a team off the show in no time looking silly or pathetic. Unfortunately I think if the bell had not been there the poker team would go on but next week with the hay they probably would have failed, without tremendous luck.


I think just the opposite, I think the producers had plenty of applicants who fit that criteria. But having an all girl team and thowing in a strength challenge or having Mika who is afraid of water and heights and asking her to slide down that slide into water makes for good TV and good ratings.

As for these challenges I can't categorize how tough they actually were or how heavy that hammer was because I was not there to try them.


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

Mr Flippant said:


> Unfortunately I think if the bell had not been there the poker team would go on but next week...


I don't know about next week. I don't watch the previews on purpose, and it's considered polite in here to spoiler tag previews for a future show.

(hint)


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

wendiness1 said:


> Please note: I said "I think" and "I believe"


And for the record, I agree with you on that...the impression I get is that it was just something to "dress up" that side of the detour.

Of course, I don't know what the producers think, because I didn't ask them, in case that's a prerequisite in here for trying to figure things out.


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## Mispelld (May 6, 2009)

I would've loved to see Charla and Mirna from Amazing Race 5 try that golf/bell ringing and then see what the comments here would've been.

I agree with the previous poster that said the Race favors young and fit couples. It would be nice if they could have nothing but gender-, age-, and fitness-neutral tasks every race so as to remove any possible advantage. Unfortunately, even then it would come down to a foot race at the end.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> And you would be using poor technique. If you could lift the sledge at all you could successfully ring that bell. And the "technique" would take about as long to learn and be as difficult as, say, rowing a boat, which they managed to get by at previously.
> 
> Momentum makes far more difference than brute strength as demonstrated by the ease with which everyone else rang the bell; and where would you find a "bell-ringing expert", anyway? The same place you might find a 'bike-riding" expert or a "bell-counting" expert, I suppose.
> 
> If the men had swung the sledge the same way Tiffany and Maria did, they would not have rung the bell either; at least not on the first try. Just because they tried "71!!!" times does not make the task unfair; anymore than the bell counting was unfair because Erica couldn't count.


Not really, it was pretty obvious that Tiffany was hitting pretty hard while maria kind of dropped it. Maria barely moved it. Even with technique for a woman some significant strength was needed.



latrobe7 said:


> That comparison is invalid on multiple levels; but for the sake of argument; a woman bowler would have no problem using a mans ball to bowl 1 frame well.


Many men use a fingertip grip bowling ball of 16 lbs or more. Very few woman could hold that much less propel the ball down the lane.

As for gold comparison, woman have used different equipment for year. Most woman used 5, 7,9 and 11 woods long before hybrids to have the ability to hit the ball higher. Men just recently did that. Using the same clubs and the same giant ball as the men was quite a disadvantage for the two girls. All the other couples had a least one guy to alternate with. Take any of the other two split teams and limit them to just the woman and it would be equally difficult.


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## IJustLikeTivo (Oct 3, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Yes, if you have more muscle, you could get more downward force, but I'm saying that I believe those bells can be rung with just the force of gravity and you assisting. Don't you agree that it would be trivially easy to put more downward force on a falling object?
> 
> Plus, you don't lift the mallet above your head and then swing. It's a momentum thing where you quite literally "swing" it up and then down. The weight of the mallet and the downward force you exert would be enough to ring it.


I really don't think that's true. By the end, Tiffany was able to hit pretty hard and while she did use both hands on the end, she controlled the arc and even added some force. Regardless, she never really came close. As she got more technique she got closer and if she'd had the technique earlier she might have made it. Regardless. it required a far greater level of finesse than any of the men had to have and that seems, on the face of it, unfair.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I think what we're arguing about is whether the bell-ringing task was "unfair." Let's change the terminology and say that the bell-ringing task was biased in favor of stronger teams. Does anyone disagree with that?

Similarly, the golf challenge required a certain amount of hand-eye coordination and some strength, and was therefore biased in favor of teams with those characteristics? Anyone disagree?

Finally, does anyone disagree that of all the teams left in the race, Tiffany and Michelle had the lowest combination of strength and hand-eye coordination and therefore were at a bigger disadvantage than most when attempting to complete those tasks. Were the tasks "unfair" to an all-girl team? I doubt I'd go that far, but they were definitely biased against an all-girl team.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I think you guys are leaving out the factor that they were cold and physically exhausted. I am sure if they had the technique at the beginning it would have been a slam dunk but by the end it looked like their hands were raw in addition to exhaustion and hyperthermia.


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## laria (Sep 7, 2000)

zalusky said:


> I think you guys are leaving out the factor that they were cold and physically exhausted. I am sure if they had the technique at the beginning it would have been a slam dunk but by the end it looked like their hands were raw in addition to exhaustion and hyperthermia.


They had like 10 layers of costume on... if I were them I would have taken part of my costume off and wrapped it around my hands at the first sign my hands were starting to get irritated.


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## Marc (Jun 26, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> Were the tasks "unfair" to an all-girl team? I doubt I'd go that far, but they were definitely biased against an all-girl team.


But isn't that the crux of the problem? If the challenges were "biased against" them, then isn't that "unfair" to them?

In an ideal situation, the competitors would be able to meet all of the challenges equally, but that's never going to happen. Nonetheless, none of the challenges should present an absolute barrier to any particular team configuration. It may be possible to assume that an average female person is not going to be able to ring the bell. Therefore, TAR had set up a challenge that potentially blocks any all-female team.

I think, though, that the golf challenge would have otherwise been the right one for them to choose, but the weather intervened and made it impossible for them to succeed even with that one. Under better circumstances, they probably could have eventually made it through the course.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

The bell ringing task was no more unfair to the girls than the gold counting task was to the teams with poor math skills. In other words, the game isn't (and can't be) fair to everyone on every task. Luck is definitely a factor and the girl's luck ran out this week.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

wendiness1 said:


> Why so touchy today?


I'm not touchy. I just do not believe that there was anything unfair toward female competitors in that task; and I think the analogy to women bowlers or golfers is inapt.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

laria said:


> I don't think being fit and strong really looked like it made any difference on the golf challenge. Those "golf balls" looked like they were giant wiffle balls.


I thought they were painted soccer balls.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

IJustLikeTivo said:


> Not really, it was pretty obvious that Tiffany was hitting pretty hard while maria kind of dropped it. Maria barely moved it. Even with technique for a woman some significant strength was needed.


You're right, Tiffany was hitting hard; clearly she had enough upper body strength to lift and swing the hammer >20+ times. If she had swung it correctly, she would have rang the bell.



> Many men use a fingertip grip bowling ball of 16 lbs or more. Very few woman could hold that much less propel the ball down the lane.


So what? Not every man uses a "fingertip" ball. This is part of the reason why the bowler comparison doesn't make sense.



> As for gold comparison, woman have used different equipment for year. Most woman used 5, 7,9 and 11 woods long before hybrids to have the ability to hit the ball higher. Men just recently did that. Using the same clubs and the same giant ball as the men was quite a disadvantage for the two girls. All the other couples had a least one guy to alternate with. Take any of the other two split teams and limit them to just the woman and it would be equally difficult.


I'm not even sure what you're on about here - mens vs. womens golf clubs? Once again, so what? "Farmers Golf" is not analogous to real golf, any more than ringing the bell is analogous to bowling.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

macplanterguy said:


> The bell ringing task was no more unfair to the girls than the gold counting task was to the teams with poor math skills. In other words, the game isn't (and can't be) fair to everyone on every task. Luck is definitely a factor and the girl's luck ran out this week.


Not that I agree with them, but people are saying both detour tasks were "physical/strength" tasks. In the case of the gold task a team could switch to building which had no math what so ever so the teams could choose which they are least worst at.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I was actually sorry to see the girls go, which says a lot because I hated them initially. I really wanted Team Zebra to go.

But the previews held the biggest OH NO moment for me...



Spoiler



I can't believe they are doing that horrific hay bale thing again.


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## jradosh (Jul 31, 2001)

The Globetrotters had some great lines (and great moves) this episode. Their dancing was great! But my favorite bit...

"We don't know all the player's names, but we know Brian's because we're always hearing Ericka yelling it." (paraphrased)


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

jradosh said:


> The Globetrotters had some great lines (and great moves) this episode. Their dancing was great! But my favorite bit...
> 
> "We don't know all the player's names, but we know Brian's because we're always hearing Ericka yelling it." (paraphrased)


you forgot the high pitched *****y voiced "Brian!!" that he mimicked 3 or 4 times

Too funny.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

jradosh said:


> The Globetrotters had some great lines (and great moves) this episode. Their dancing was great! But my favorite bit...
> 
> "We don't know all the player's names, but we know Brian's because we're always hearing Ericka yelling it." (paraphrased)





Jebberwocky! said:


> you forgot the high pitched *****y voiced "Brian!!" that he mimicked 3 or 4 times
> 
> Too funny.


I meant to mention that scene too! And it was immediately followed up by a scene with her yelling "Brian!"


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## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

As others have said, Ericka is getting on my last nerve  I was so hoping she would not be able to complete the bell counting. I can't believe she took so long but still was able to catch up with the other teams! Hopefully team Zebra is gone next week...

I was so disappointed that the Poker girls ended up like they did - they really made an effort but I agree that they should have tried to take a chance and skip the bell ringing and go on to the dance part. A time penalty would have been much easier.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

catcard said:


> I was so disappointed that the Poker girls ended up like they did - they really made an effort but I agree that they should have tried to take a chance and skip the bell ringing and go on to the dance part. A time penalty would have been much easier.


They were saved twice previously, once by a non-elimination and then when Zak 's team lost their passport.

I grew to like them but they weren't going to go too far.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Did anyone else find it hilarious that Erika LOVED the herring at the end of the dance challenge? Not often does someone love a native food like that. It was especially funny after one of the Trotters looked sick while eating it.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

macplanterguy said:


> The bell ringing task was no more unfair to the girls than the gold counting task was to the teams with poor math skills. In other words, the game isn't (and can't be) fair to everyone on every task. Luck is definitely a factor and the girl's luck ran out this week.


I agree. The producers are not going to know all of the contestants strengths and weaknesses and be able to work with/around them.

I kind of doubt that the producers had ANY idea that what's-his-face would not have been able to do the Russian troop march thing (though THAT made for hilarious TV! ). Even an all girl team would have had a chance at the bell ringing. In this case it seemed that the Poker Girls just couldn't work it out. Had they treated the Farmer's Golf challenge a bit more like croquet than trying to treat it like golf, I think that would have been a bit better for them. The wind certainly didn't help them, but a little technique should have let them accomplish that task.

I was sad to see them go, but they had been near gone too many times for me to think they would have made final three.


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

I still think the bell was a dumb idea. The golf task already gave an advantage to stronger players, why throw one in both tasks? Maybe latrobe designed it.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

But the golf task did not favor stronger players. It favored players who could hit the ball straight on the ground.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Roadblock said:


> Maybe latrobe designed it.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

i can't believe anyone thinks that the girls' relative lack of strength didn't matter in either challenge. especially the bell... 

while technique surely plays a part... at some point technique doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to apply the technique. you can have no technique and just muscle it... it's a sliding scale, the less strength you have, the more technique becomes important. and the girls had no margin for error.  

even if they had perfect technique, if the mallet is so heavy that they can't control the descent, they would have a harder time aiming it and would miss the target more often. 

they had zero chance of ringing the bell. well, maria had zero chance, tiffany had a tiny chance.

as for the golf... strength definitely plays a part as well... increased strength = increased clubhead speed=increased distance. it applies here, regular golf or farmer's golf. 

as for bowling... absolutely the average female bowler could not be competent with a 16# ball. fingertip or no fingertip... anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know bowling.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrandonRe said:


> But the golf task did not favor stronger players. It favored players who could hit the ball straight on the ground.


Problem was that damn wind.

I'm an expert famer golf player and you want to get the ball in the air, as that long grass just kills any distance. But when the wind is against you, your best chance is a very low shot (or get the lawn mower).

Had the course or wind been in the opposite direction, the girls would have completed that task.


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## Numb And Number2 (Jan 13, 2009)

appleye1 said:


> They could of just skipped the bells..


Or they could have.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Numb And Number2 said:


> Or they could have.


Nice!


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## KyleLC (Feb 6, 2002)

Numb And Number2 said:


> Or they could have.


Or they could've.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> .... the analogy to women bowlers or golfers is *inapt.*


????

inapt: Adj. 1. inapt - not elegant or graceful in expression;


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

macplanterguy said:


> The bell ringing task was no more unfair to the girls than the gold counting task was to the teams with poor math skills. In other words, the game isn't (and can't be) fair to everyone on every task. Luck is definitely a factor and the girl's luck ran out this week.


Am I missing something, or did no team actually use math to count the gold. They all used calculators. A team not completing the gold counting task fast were not the ones who didn't understand math, but the ones who didn't have the smarts to ask for a calculator.

-smak-


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smak said:


> Am I missing something, or did no team actually use math to count the gold. They all used calculators. A team not completing the gold counting task fast were not the ones who didn't understand math, but the ones who didn't have the smarts to ask for a calculator.
> 
> -smak-


true, but in fairness, some teams didn't even know what they needed to do to actually calculate the value (in other words, they didn't know that to get the right answer, they needed to divide the target amount by the price of gold)...so a calculator would not have helped them


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Numb And Number2 said:


> Or they could have.





KyleLC said:


> Or they could've.


Hah! Good catch!

I think "could've" is what I was going for. I blame all that Hooked on Phonics crap. "Of" sounded right!


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> ????
> 
> inapt: Adj. 1. inapt - not elegant or graceful in expression;


What dictionary are you using? Try Merriam-Webster:


> *inapt*
> Main Entry: in·apt
> Pronunciation: \(ˌ)i-ˈnapt\
> Function: adjective
> ...


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