# Battlestar Galactica 2/13/09 "No Exit"



## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Ooh! I'm a PC guy!

This is a good episode!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

poor Sam...he's going from one brain surgery to another...

Cavil is one amazing guy...he can nuke 12 planets so that there are 50,000 survivors but still manage to keep 4 specific people alive!

maybe Cavil is God


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Cavil was trying to get all of them killed... eventually. If they survived longer, that was fine w/him. The longer they survived the more they suffered only to be all the more worshipful of him when they resurrected. Cavil is Satan, symbolically. The one who, out of hubris, rebels against his creator.

On another subject, I'm really confused about the timeframe of how stuff happened. Humans on the colonies invented the cylons. But somehow the cylons got to Earth thousands of years earlier. 5 of them survived the earth's holocost and re-invented resurrection technology, traveled at relativistic sub-light speed, bringing them back to the colonies 40 years ago. They stopped the human cylon war. Helped the centurians make skinjobs - 8 models. Then Cavil, the first skinjob rebelled, did something to #7 (Daniel), killed the final 5, and when they were resurrected, emplanted them to think they were humans and left them to live on earth. 40 years later, Cavil came back to exact his revenge on humans. Because he's angry that they enslaved the toasters that they made.

Did I get that right?

If so, the confusion is this: how did the cylons get to Earth 3000-ish years before they were invented?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Now this is the Battlestar I love. When the credits hit I yelled at my TV "There's still three minutes left!"

I've enjoyed the past three episodes. I'm in it for the ride now but god I wish they hadn't lost their way for so long.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mjh said:


> If so, the confusion is this: how did the cylons get to Earth 3000-ish years before they were invented?


I'm confused as well...maybe they were just created on Earth and took over after killing all the humans...


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

mjh said:


> Cavil was trying to get all of them killed... eventually. If they survived longer, that was fine w/him. The longer they survived the more they suffered only to be all the more worshipful of him when they resurrected. Cavil is Satan, symbolically. The one who, out of hubris, rebels against his creator.
> 
> On another subject, I'm really confused about the timeframe of how stuff happened. Humans on the colonies invented the cylons. But somehow the cylons got to Earth thousands of years earlier. 5 of them survived the earth's holocost and re-invented resurrection technology, traveled at relativistic sub-light speed, bringing them back to the colonies 40 years ago. They stopped the human cylon war. Helped the centurians make skinjobs - 8 models. Then Cavil, the first skinjob rebelled, did something to #7 (Daniel), killed the final 5, and when they were resurrected, emplanted them to think they were humans and left them to live on earth. 40 years later, Cavil came back to exact his revenge on humans. Because he's angry that they enslaved the toasters that they made.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the final five travelled to the colonies, found they had already created centurion style cylons. Told those cylons that if they ended the war they would help them create hybrids. The first war ended. Then they Helped them create hybrids, Cavil then rebelled as you suggested and came back to destroy the humans 40 years after the first war. The creation of the hybrids by the final 5 occurred between the wars.

ETA: the cylons on earth and the original cylons on the colonies were created independent of each other, hence the "this has happened before" references.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It seemed like Ellen should have been in charge. But then Cavil was really in charge. Is Daniel going to turn out to be someone we know? Someone named Baltar, perhaps?

"I'm a Cylon, Sir. So's my ExO".


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> My understanding is that the final five travelled to the colonies, found they had already created centurion style cylons. Told those cylons that if they ended the war they would help them create hybrids.


Except that Sam said that the centurions had already created hybrids, but not full skinjobs. The final 5 were the ones who created the skinjobs.


> ETA: the cylons on earth and the original cylons on the colonies were created independent of each other, hence the "this has happened before" references.


Yeah, I guess so. A little deus ex machina, but ok.


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## tivolovr (Feb 8, 2001)

> If so, the confusion is this: how did the cylons get to Earth 3000-ish years before they were invented?


I think that human-style cylons were either 1) developed on Kobol by humans without them ever creating the centaurians or 2) the cycle started on Kobol -- machines created, machines rebel, war, everyone scatters and form colonies, leftover machines "evolve" into skin jobs and colonize as well. They are the 13th tribe that colonize Earth.

They resurrect for a while but then start reproducing biologically and that technology gets forgotten. They rebuild machine cylons for labor and the cycle starts again with them rebelling. The five we know as the "final five" get wind of war somehow and recreate the resurrection technology.

The human cylons and the machine cylons destroy each other on Earth in a nuclear war. The final five escape and are reborn on an orbitting ship. They head (sub light speed) to Kobol and eventually to the colonies. They make a deal to stop the war by helping the machine cylons there create human models. They pattern the models on folks they know.

That's all I've got.


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## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

Digging this show again. But. How did boomer know how to get back to the fleet, that must be where there headed. If she knew all along why wouldn't they just go after the fleet? I figure that John must want a new resurrection hub before going to battle. So, was the escape planned so that the five could be back together so they could build another hub? But, I dont think the final five need resurrection; they can reproduce the old fashioned way, right?


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

Dad said:


> Digging this show again. But. How did boomer know how to get back to the fleet, that must be where there headed. If she knew all along why wouldn't they just go after the fleet? I figure that John must want a new resurrection hub before going to battle. So, was the escape planned so that the five could be back together so they could build another hub? But, I dont think the final five need resurrection; they can reproduce the old fashioned way, right?


Will resurrection work on a brain-dead Anders?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

very strange casting call on the brain surgeon...isn't that the guy from The Daily Show?

it was very hard to take him seriously...I felt like I was in the middle of a sketch or something...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> very strange casting call on the brain surgeon...isn't that the guy from The Daily Show?
> 
> it was very hard to take him seriously...I felt like I was in the middle of a sketch or something...


Yes, I was quite distracted by Hogeman. Couldn't take him seriously.

I don't know...things are seeming awfully "slapped together." Kind of like Galactica herself, I guess.

Not bad, but it's a weird feeling to be sprinting for the finish line after such a leisurely pace.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Meh. I'm finding difficult to care about all the granular retcon machinations that Cavel is on about or that Anders is babbling about... blah, blah, blah - does any of this stuff really matter? They&#8217;re just going to change it all next week anyway. 

More Boomer (in hot-pants if it can be arranged - and if Ellen Tigh can be the brilliant lead scientist in a group genius cylon bio-mechanical engineers, a hot-pant flight suit can't be out of the question) and blowing stuff up, kthxbai


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

While I watched the episode I thought "Yeah, answers! They're finally explaining what happened!"

And then, 10 minutes later, it hit me: This wasn't a plot show. This was a "The fans keep demanding that we expand on the story and the history. So, we'll sink a bullet into Ander's brain to get him to short circuit and proceed to do nothing but a retcon lecture for 45 minutes."

The timeline and the reasonings are so screwed up that I think I might just be done. I've been holding out in the last episodes to finally learn the answers to all of those secrets...and as everyone suspected, there never were any. Someone just came up with a semi-lucid explanation and blathered it out for this entire episode.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

The episode title is very appropriate. No Exit. The painted themselves into a corner and the only way out is retcon, retcon, retcon. Right from the start there were 12 Cylon models. We still don't know who left that note on Adama's mirror -- maybe it was the 13th mode we just found out about. Is Kara the 13th model? The "Daniel" whose genes Cavil damaged? Well that conveniently explains how she came back unharmed. Doesn't explain how she was resurrected, who fixed her Raptor and who implanted all those memories (I found Earth). Cavil? I actually like the idea of Ellen as the "Creator" and Cavil as her and favorite who turns on her. As someone already mentioned, just like Satan. Would have been really cool if they had planned that out all along and filled in details along the way to confirm (or conform to?) this central plot line. But if they did, then they did a piss-poor job of executing it, given the shape of the final results. It feels like they got this really great idea of how to tie it all up, except their meanderings over the last two seasons resulted in too many details that did not fit. 

So frustrating, so disappointing.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

At the opener I was like "this one's gonna rock" and then - like some others here - I was like "oh, they're just gonna have Anders explain everything". Boring.

Plus, I didn't follow it at all. Maybe because it wasn't backed up by previous seasons!

Who is Daniel? There's ANOTHER Cylon we don't know now?! Come on! And why didn't we know that we were missing #7 before? I'm confused of what the numbers of the 12 we DO know are. Was #7 just skipped? 

So confused and let down!


However, Timoh Pinkett looked hot as hell boxing on Dollhouse!


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Based on last night's Recon, Daniel is #7. There are essentially 8 "skinjobs", all created by the original earthlings/"Cylons". Daniel was wiped out early, and to everyone except #1, the final 5 had become little more than part of the mythology.

I'm sure that "#7" was just dreamt up for this episode to answer why we haven't seen a #7 and why the final 5 haven't adopted numbers.


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## WinBear (Aug 24, 2000)

Previously, #8 is the highest numbered skinjob (Sharon/Boomer/Athena). With only 7 skinjobs in wide circulation, there was definitely a gap. Enough other numbers have been mentioned to speculate #7 had to be one of the missing models. If they had numbered the 4 cylons in the fleet, #7 would have most likely referred to Ellen, but none of this new information disputes anything we've heard before.


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## UnionBuster (Jun 7, 2002)

doom1701 said:


> The timeline and the reasonings are so screwed up that I think I might just be done. I've been holding out in the last episodes to finally learn the answers to all of those secrets...and as everyone suspected, there never were any. Someone just came up with a semi-lucid explanation and blathered it out for this entire episode.


How are the timeline and reasonings screwed up?


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Back in S1 there was a note left for Adama that there were 12 models. If none of the final 5 knew they were cylons then, and the the existence of the final 5 were erased from the memory of the others, then how did anyone know there was 12?

And why are the skin jobs referring to the final 5 as the "final" 5 when they were the first 5?

I'm ready to let them retcon everything.

J


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

The timelines spouted by Anders and Ellen was very confusing. This is the 1st time I did not delete the show right after seeing it. I need to watch it again to try and make sense of it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jwjody said:


> Back in S1 there was a note left for Adama that there were 12 models. If none of the final 5 knew they were cylons then, and the the existence of the final 5 were erased from the memory of the others, then how did anyone know there was 12?
> 
> And why are the skin jobs referring to the final 5 as the "final" 5 when they were the first 5?
> 
> ...


could be one of the final 5 in one of the Boomer-like trance leaving the note...

I think the term "final 5" comes from the fact that they are the final ones to be revealed to all (including the spylons)...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

doom1701 said:


> This wasn't a plot show. This was a "The fans keep demanding that we expand on the story and the history. So, *we'll sink a bullet into Ander's brain to get him to short circuit and proceed to do nothing but a retcon lecture for 45 minutes."*
> 
> The timeline and the reasonings are so screwed up that I think I might just be done. I've been holding out in the last episodes to finally learn the answers to all of those secrets...and as everyone suspected, there never were any. Someone just came up with a *semi-lucid *explanation and blathered it out for this entire episode.


+1

Also agree in the irony of "No Exit" episode name as it relates to the excerable job that the writers have done with the plot


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Why should being entertained be this difficult?


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Anubys said:


> could be one of the final 5 in one of the Boomer-like trance leaving the note...
> 
> I think the term "final 5" comes from the fact that they are the final ones to be revealed to all (including the spylons)...


I think the number is the order in which they put the models into mass replication while they fine-tuned the process and the final 5 would only get model numbers when it was deemed perfect.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

I kept wanting Ellen to look at one of the centurions and tell them to whack Dr. Becket (quantum leap).


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## walkerjs (Sep 22, 2005)

Craigbob said:


> The timelines spouted by Anders and Ellen was very confusing. This is the 1st time I did not delete the show right after seeing it. I need to watch it again to try and make sense of it.


You might want to watch it with the podcast playing. Which for once was released by Moore fairly soon after the show aired. Last week's podcast wasn't released until very late in the week after the show was aired and that makes me cranky. Anyway, Ron sort of explains the writing as he goes along.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

DouglasPHill said:


> I kept wanting Ellen to look at one of the centurions and tell them to whack* Al Calavicci* (quantum leap).


FYP


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Aniketos said:


> Now this is the Battlestar I love. When the credits hit I yelled at my TV "There's still three minutes left!"
> 
> I've enjoyed the past three episodes. I'm in it for the ride now but god I wish they hadn't lost their way for so long.


+1

Even though I'd been FF the commercials I was still blindsided by the ending credits. That was the faster hour in a long time.....



dad said:


> Digging this show again. But. How did boomer know how to get back to the fleet, that must be where there headed. If she knew all along why wouldn't they just go after the fleet?


I believe, based on the time line, that Boomer & Ellen escaped four months ago so they have been on the run since then. And remember that Ellen knows where Earth is and she knew that that's where the fleet was headed. She might have even been responsible for the mystery surrounding Starbuck.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

4 months stuck inside of a raptor? That's gotta get rank...

I also think that the Cylons have a decent idea where they are going so that they can "finish the job". The destruction of the hub sidetracked them a little bit, but I think they're still on their way to earth. Boomer and Ellen may just be getting ahead of them. I don't think that Cavill is going to just let Ellen get away.


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## Mr_Bester (Jan 27, 2007)

ronsch said:


> +1
> 
> .....
> 
> I believe, based on the time line, that Boomer & Ellen escaped four months ago so they have been on the run since then. And remember that Ellen knows where Earth is and she knew that that's where the fleet was headed. She might have even been responsible for the mystery surrounding Starbuck.


If you rewatch it, the last date stamp was "2 days ago" on the Basestar with Ellen and Boomer.

Am I the only one that thinks PC guy is Daniel that John kept around to screw with the final five.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Mr_Bester said:


> If you rewatch it, the last date stamp was "2 days ago" on the Basestar with Ellen and Boomer.
> 
> Am I the only one that thinks PC guy is Daniel that John kept around to screw with the final five.


You want a totally off the wall theory? Zak Adama, the other son of the Admiral, was gonna be a washout in the military but Starbuck helped him. If I remember correctly, she loved him because he was more artistic and less militaristic like the other Adama's?

This guy has been preaching it for a while.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> You want a totally off the wall theory? Zak Adama, the other son of the Admiral, was gonna be a washout in the military but Starbuck helped him. If I remember correctly, she loved him because he was more artistic and less militaristic like the other Adama's?
> 
> This guy has been preaching it for a while.


Zak did come to mind. I basically narrowed it down to Zak, or Starbuck. Yeah, they said "Daniel" but maybe they meant Danielle. Or maybe the genetic contamination also had the effect of a gender flip or something like that.

I'm only partially kidding.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

I figure that there are only two reasons to bring up #7...either to answer why the "final 5" aren't numbered models, or they plan to pull something out of their @$$ in the final episodes that will involve a never before seen Cylon.


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## cstelter (Mar 18, 2002)

Anubys said:


> could be one of the final 5 in one of the Boomer-like trance leaving the note...
> 
> I think the term "final 5" comes from the fact that they are the final ones to be revealed to all (including the spylons)...


Yeah, that's probably right, but I think I've retconned another interpretation...

My understanding of the episodes revelations is that that Earth was a planet full of cylons from the first time "This has all happened before". A planet of cylons that had managed to procreate (like Saul/Six). A planet wat was for all intents and purposes human (they'd given up on resurrection for lack of a need) except that they were skinjobs. I'm still a bit fuzzy on the nuclear war on earth-- maybe those cylons had created metal cylons again to help them and those machine cylons rebelled causing the war??? Anyway, the five built themselves a resurrection hub in space over Earth and when the nukes hit, they resurrected themselves harking back to their olden skinjob days before they settled on Earth. They then took 3000 years to get back to the colonies only to find it was all just happening there-- the Humans had made metal cylons and just like the metal cylons created by the Earth skinjobs. That had resulted in the nuking of Earth and now these cylons were in a huge war with the humans of the colonies. They tried to stop the cycle by halting the war and creating a new civilization of skinjobs one model at a time (thus starting the next cycle)

So these 5 skinjobs were the final 5 from Earth to survive and thus they are the "final 5" cylons-- of the first cycle. Cavil could have told the other 8 that they were created by the final five cylons from Earth and thus they became known as the 'final five'. How he explained why there were now gone and with the humans is anyone's guess. So the remaining 8 knew that the 7's were lost and that the final 5 were with the humans so any one of the cylons hidden in the fleet could have written the note to Adama as 12 would have been accurate as long as the writer knew that the 7s were defunct... It wouldn't surprise me if it were Cavil-- I recall there was at least one Cavil (maybe 2??) in the fleet-- he seems the sort to leave such a clue for Adama. But it could have been one of the (forget his hame-- starbuck lover) too.

Suddenly now we have the fleet and cylons and if the cylons that can now procreate can go find a planet to settle and the rest can go find 12 planets to settle elsewhere, we can finally start the whole cycle over again. Of course before that can happen, maybe they need to find a new Kobol where all the humans and skinjobs can inhabit before they have to leave as 13 colonies-- one of skinjobs to find the new earth and 12 of humans to found the new colonies...

It's all happened before. It will all happen again.

I dunno, I suppose it makes as much sense as one could hope for being written on the fly.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> I figure that there are only two reasons to bring up #7...either to answer why the "final 5" aren't numbered models, or they plan to pull something out of their @$$ in the final episodes that will involve a never before seen Cylon.


It finally dawned on them that they never explained why Boomer was #8 instead of 7 (they numbered the numbered models back when they didn't know there was going to be a "Final 5"). So now they have to explain why the Final 5 is different than 1-6 and 8; the numbering makes no sense (one of the pitfalls of making it up as you go along). So they invented a 13th model, #7, which was killed off before the show began. Thus, the 12 models referred to at the beginning of the show are 1-6, 8, and the Final 5; 7 doesn't count because he no longer existed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

one little side note: I have two kids and that does not stop me from wishing I could live forever...

having kids would not stop me or anyone in the human race from wanting a resurrection machine...

just sayin'...the whole "we forgot how to because we can procreate" makes no sense whatsoever to me...


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

There's an important point that people are missing, even though it was clarified better in this episode. The "Final 5" are not skinjobs. They aren't machines. They aren't skinjobs from the earth war. They're just humans. They figured out resurrection and survived that way when the robots that their branch of humanity had created started nuclear war.

The "earth was populated by Cylons" bit is confusing to be sure. But the remains indicated that everyone that inhabited earth was a Cylon. That means that either the robots rebelled against the skinjobs, or that the skinjobs are just based on the genetic makeup of earthlings.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> There's an important point that people are missing, even though it was clarified better in this episode. The "Final 5" are not skinjobs. They aren't machines. They aren't skinjobs from the earth war. They're just humans. They figured out resurrection and survived that way when the robots that their branch of humanity had created started nuclear war.


No, they're not. They're humanoid Cylons.

Earth was entirely populated by humanoid Cylons. Only five of them survived, by re-inventing the resurrection technology (which had fallen out of use when humanoid Cylons figured out how to reproduce sexually).

When the Five came to the Colonies, they found the Toasters, who had developed hybrids and were working on humanoid Cylons of their own. The Five then took over the Colonies' Cylons, and created the eight new humanoid models.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they're not. They're humanoid Cylons.
> 
> Earth was entirely populated by humanoid Cylons. Only five of them survived, by re-inventing the resurrection technology (which had fallen out of use when humanoid Cylons figured out how to reproduce sexually).
> 
> When the Five came to the Colonies, they found the Toasters, who had developed hybrids and were working on humanoid Cylons of their own. The Five then took over the Colonies' Cylons, and created the eight new humanoid models.


You're saying that the entire planet of earth, originally populated by the 13th tribe of Kobol (ie, humans), was made up of skinjobs? Where did the "Humans" go?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

doom1701 said:


> You're saying that the entire planet of earth, originally populated by the 13th tribe of Kobol (ie, humans), was made up of skinjobs? Where did the "Humans" go?


Ellen will probably tell them that that wasn't Earth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> You're saying that the entire planet of earth, originally populated by the 13th tribe of Kobol (ie, humans), was made up of skinjobs? Where did the "Humans" go?


I'm not telling you that, the writers are telling you that. The 13th tribe were the original humanoid Cylons, not humans.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Maybe we're discussing semantics; when you refer to "humanoid Cylons", are you talking about what most people have accepted to be skinjobs--biological beings with mechanical/robotic/computerized components (ie, excessive strength, ability to interface directly with computers, etc.)? I'm contending that the "final 5" and all "earthlings" are 100&#37; biological creatures. Are they, in the definitions of this universe, "humanoid Cylons"? Yes, as in the earthlings are the biological basis for the skinjobs.

Edit: I'm re-watching No Exit, and just caught Cavill telling Ellen that she's a machine. Huh, that's too bad. Something tells me that they'll never explain how the entire population of earth wound up being skinjobs. Disappointing.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> Zak did come to mind. I basically narrowed it down to Zak, or Starbuck. Yeah, they said "Daniel" but maybe they meant Danielle. Or maybe the genetic contamination also had the effect of a gender flip or something like that.
> 
> I'm only partially kidding.


genetic contamination, darn that pesky Y chromosome becoming another X .. I hate when that happens! I certainly felt they left that one in there..


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> Edit: I'm re-watching No Exit, and just caught Cavill telling Ellen that she's a machine. Huh, that's too bad. Something tells me that they'll never explain how the entire population of earth wound up being skinjobs. Disappointing.


The humans of Kobol invented Cylons. The humans left Kobol for the 12 colonies; the Cylons left Kobol for Earth.


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## cstelter (Mar 18, 2002)

Anubys said:


> one little side note: I have two kids and that does not stop me from wishing I could live forever...
> 
> having kids would not stop me or anyone in the human race from wanting a resurrection machine...
> 
> just sayin'...the whole "we forgot how to because we can procreate" makes no sense whatsoever to me...


I believe the argument is that resurrection leads to complacency and life is just more interesting when death is final. More to live for. More to strive for while alive. It's why the cylons that joined the fleet were willing to destroy the hub or whatever it was that made the cylons 'mortal'. You may disagree and apparently the final 5 of that generation disagreed too. But I think they laid the groundwork for the theory of how it might have come to be.

Seems they're all heading for a landing on 'New Kobol' to start it all over.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The humans of Kobol invented Cylons. The humans left Kobol for the 12 colonies; the Cylons left Kobol for Earth.


agreed. The logical ending is therefore for the fleet plus the cylons to find a new home where they form their 12 colonies and for the cylons to leave that place to find a new earth since they cannot co-exist in the same place.

fade to black with something hokey like "and the cycle continues"...

it would be all very dramatic...the writers would be wetting themselves with delight...


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## gryphon00 (Jul 23, 2003)

hefe said:


> Zak did come to mind. I basically narrowed it down to Zak, or Starbuck. Yeah, they said "Daniel" but maybe they meant Danielle. Or maybe the genetic contamination also had the effect of a gender flip or something like that.
> 
> I'm only partially kidding.


I wouldn't put it past the writers at this point to come out with something like this as an explaination as to why Starbuck is this "Daniel" and then sweepingly turn it into some "homage" to the original Starbuck being a man.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> It seemed like Ellen should have been in charge. But then Cavil was really in charge. Is Daniel going to turn out to be someone we know? Someone named Baltar, perhaps?
> 
> "I'm a Cylon, Sir. So's my ExO".


totally what I was thinking. Sam said that they all saw visions-man, woman-and that Tyrol thought he had a chip in his head-that seems like what Baltar's going through with his Head Six?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

gryphon00 said:


> I wouldn't put it past the writers at this point to come out with something like this as an explaination as to why Starbuck is this "Daniel" and then sweepingly turn it into some "homage" to the original Starbuck being a man.


Sounds about right to me. Yep. I think Starbuck is Daniel.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

atrac said:


> Sounds about right to me. Yep. I think Starbuck is Daniel.


Starbuck isn't exactly the sensitive artistic type that Cavil described. Also, if Starbuck was a cylon, wouldn't Anders have recognized her as such? In any case, they've retconned/explained the hole in the skinjob numbering system and now have 13 types, one for each colony.

So, Ellen makes Cavil in her father's image, gives him her father's name ... and has sex with him on New Caprica?


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Starbuck isn't exactly the sensitive artistic type that Cavil described. Also, if Starbuck was a cylon, wouldn't Anders have recognized her as such? In any case, they've retconned/explained the hole in the skinjob numbering system and now have 13 types, one for each colony.
> 
> So, Ellen makes Cavil in her father's image, gives him her father's name ... and has sex with him on New Caprica?


When she was on NC she didn't know she was a Cylon. Cavil on the otherhand must have a serious Oedipus complex.

J


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jwjody said:


> When she was on NC she didn't know she was a Cylon. Cavil on the otherhand must have a serious Oedipus complex.


Bear in mind that when they were on New Caprica, the writers didn't know she was the fifth Final Fiver...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

RDM was very matter of fact in the podcast about how the writing process went and how they didn't know early on that there would be a final 5 and that the cylon numbering forced them to have to come up with an explanation.

He also said at the end of the podcast (referencing all the criticism, of course) that "if I was a professional, I would have known it all from the every beginning, of course, that goes without saying.."

and "If I had an ounce of talent, it would have all been written well before the show was even on the air."


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Starbuck has been painting like a lunatic off and on during the series. I would say it is pretty safe to say that she is #7. Cavil said that all of Ellen's equipment is still in the lab, presumably on earth, so when Starbuck croaked there, she was resurrected. But since her line doesn't exist there wansn't any way for her to remember a damn thing. Still begs the question why she has the tattoo in her resurrected form.


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## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

It seems like the writers are making this up as they go along 

Say it ain't so joe


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

jones07 said:


> It seems like the writers are making this up as they go along




Yeah they have completely Lost their way


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

I can imagine the last line of the series being, "I guess we'll never know all the answers."


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> RDM was very matter of fact in the podcast about how the writing process went and how they didn't know early on that there would be a final 5 and that the cylon numbering forced them to have to come up with an explanation.
> 
> He also said at the end of the podcast (referencing all the criticism, of course) that "if I was a professional, I would have known it all from the every beginning, of course, that goes without saying.."
> 
> and "If I had an ounce of talent, it would have all been written well before the show was even on the air."


RDM constantly talks down to his audience in the podcast. He takes pretention to new heights by making sure with each one he tells you what bourbon he's drinking, whether the "smoking lamp" is lit, and clanks the ice in his glass whenever possible. When he IS smoking, he makes sure to make a "whooooooooosh" when he blows the smoke out, and at the end of each podcast, says, "Good night and good luck".

He views himself as above his audience, and when he's called on being an idiot, makes sarcastic remarks. He hates the people who've put him where he is.

Contrast this with Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse, who when they're criticised, respond with humor.

I'm sorry, but I do not like RDM.

Greg


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Wasn't Ellen sleeping with Cavil at some point? What more proof do you need that the show has no direction.


----------



## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

another possibility to the final end is that humans and cylons interbreed. we already have one baby who is mixed, boomer's and helo.

that could be a new beginning. seems to me that if they kill cavil, the rest of them would just follow ellen and humanity and the cylons can start over and interbreed.

the cycle will be never be broken unless centurions all turn into skinjobs and we interbreed. any scenario where metal robots or humans/humanoid cylons go their separate way, results in the same thing repeating again.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

hefe said:


> [RDM] also said at the end of the podcast (referencing all the criticism, of course) that "if I was a professional, I would have known it all from the every beginning, of course, that goes without saying.."
> 
> and "If I had an ounce of talent, it would have all been written well before the show was even on the air."


Was he being sarcastic or earnest?

EDIT: nevermind, I smeeked.


----------



## moot (Apr 8, 2006)

While I hated the fact that this was just one giant retcon, part of me was still glad to see it. I'm so desperate to get some kind of resolution out of this show that I'll gladly take a story that doesn't fit 100% as long as a casual glance at it kinda-sorta-maybe seems like it explains things.

I think we all knew "The Big Retcon" was coming. At least they got it all out of the way in one episode so they can maybe redeem the show a little bit for the rest of the series. If there's only a handful of episodes left and they're _still_ making it up as they go, then I'm not sure even this will save them.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

moot said:


> If there's only a handful of episodes left and they're _still_ making it up as they go, then I'm not sure even this will save them.


Well, from listening from the accounts of the writing process, I'd say that the season was basically outlined before the season started shooting. By the time you're shooting the last half dozen episodes, everything has been written, save final small changes and editing decisions. Sometimes they do change it up a bit midstream, as I believe was mentioned in some of the episodes leading up to Baltar's trial.

So, at the point these episodes were written, they knew where the story was going. A season or two ago, no, they hadn't figured out how it was going to end up. They may very well had a very general idea of how they wanted to end, but surely without any detail like all the cylon mythology that's coming out now.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Mr_Bester said:


> If you rewatch it, the last date stamp was "2 days ago" on the Basestar with Ellen and Boomer.


Your right! My bad.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

For those who are still a little confused by the massive data-dump in this episode, one of the nice ladies at io9 has given a summary of what we know and what we can safely assume at this point. She's not too thrilled, although she's happier than I am, but she gives a very good explanation of what's going on and why it isn't the greatest idea.


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

If they're left looking for a planet why don't they go back to Kobol now? Or even New Caprica?

J


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Here is a review with a very good summary of the cylon history from this episode. It definitely cleared some things up for me after watching.

http://entil2001.com/blog9/


----------



## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

I don't care what you all say, I still love the show and am enjoying the ride completely... anyway, in regards to all the speculation about who 'Daniel' is...



Spoiler



just take a look at the IMDB cast list for "Caprica" and the answer becomes quite clear.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

mjh said:


> On another subject, I'm really confused about the timeframe of how stuff happened. Humans on the colonies invented the cylons. But somehow the cylons got to Earth thousands of years earlier. 5 of them survived the earth's holocost and re-invented resurrection technology


They re-invented the technology before Earth's holocaust. They were killed in the holocaust and then resurrected to a ship in Earth orbit.



jwjody said:


> If they're left looking for a planet why don't they go back to Kobol now? Or even New Caprica?


For the same reason they can't go back to any of their home planets such as Caprica itself... Because the 'bad' Cylons (Cavil and company) would then find them. Remember, only the Humans and the Cylons they're 'allied' with know where Earth is, but Cavil and his crew don't.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

New caprica was a miserable planet...its only advantage is that it was hidden...


----------



## BobB (Aug 26, 2002)

atrac said:


> Sounds about right to me. Yep. I think Starbuck is Daniel.


Agreed. That was the first thing that came to my mind when they described Daniel and mentioned the genetic mishap. Daniel = Starbuck. Similar to the ending of The Marvelous Land of Oz, the sequel to The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. For those of you not familiar with this, the book that got made into the famous MGM film confection was actually just the first of a series of books by L. Frank Baum, which were much darker, weirder, and more complex than the movie.

If you haven't read it but want to know what I'm referring to:



Spoiler



Dorothy appears only in the first book of the series, goes back to Kansas, and that's that. The protagonist of the second book, The Marvelous Land of Oz, is a boy named Tip. Often mentioned but never seen is the true ruler of Oz, Princess Ozma, who has been hidden away to protect her from a cabal of evil witches. At the end it is revealed that Tip is really Ozma, who had been magically changed into a boy and brain-wiped to forget his/her true past. By Glinda the good witch, no less. I'm telling you, this is one WEIRD set of childrens books!


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Starbuck isn't exactly the sensitive artistic type that Cavil described.


But she did like to paint, and painted things that indicated that she had some innate knowledge of the 13th tribe.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jwjody said:


> Cavil on the otherhand must have a serious Oedipus complex.


Do we know that it was the same one? Maybe only one of them knows more, and the rest know as little as the rest of the cylons. In either case, he is striving to be pure machine, so I don't think family structure really has any meaning to him. Ellen is not his mother biologically or socially as far as he is concerned.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Craigbob said:


> The timelines spouted by Anders and Ellen was very confusing. This is the 1st time I did not delete the show right after seeing it. I need to watch it again *to try and make sense of it*.


Good luck with that. 



moot said:


> While I hated the fact that this was just one giant retcon, part of me was still glad to see it. I'm so desperate to get some kind of resolution out of this show that I'll gladly take a story that doesn't fit 100% as long as a casual glance at it kinda-sorta-maybe seems like it explains things.
> 
> I think we all knew "The Big Retcon" was coming. At least they got it all out of the way in one episode so they can maybe redeem the show a little bit for the rest of the series. If there's only a handful of episodes left and they're _still_ making it up as they go, then I'm not sure even this will save them.


Ditto.



BitbyBlit said:


> But she did like to paint, and painted things that indicated that she had some innate knowledge of the 13th tribe.


This is what I thought as well.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I think for there to be a retcon, you need some con to ret in the first place. If there's one constant in this show, it's change.

I'm glad to see networks starting to move away from the classic 22 episode seasons, and instead tailoring the length of the seasons to the show rather than forcing the creators to develop a bunch of filler episodes just to get some sort of "golden season length". Battlestar Galactica is a perfect example of why. Had each season been a 4-8 episode mini-series, I think it would have had far greater focus and continuity. The mini-series that started it all and Razor were both excellent in my opinion because there was a planned end to the story and a fixed length of time in order to get there.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think for there to be a retcon, you need some con to ret in the first place.


There was some at some point, then they kept "ret"ing it into oblivion over the years. This is just the latest example.


----------



## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

caslu said:


> I don't care what you all say, I still love the show and am enjoying the ride completely... anyway, in regards to all the speculation about who 'Daniel' is...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must be missing something cause it's not clear to me.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> Starbuck isn't exactly the sensitive artistic type that Cavil described.





BitbyBlit said:


> But she did like to paint, and painted things that indicated that she had some innate knowledge of the 13th tribe.


----------



## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

Couple of notes:
1) Could the 7th be Gaeta? Right before he was shot, he asked Baltar if he know who he was. And Baltar answered "Yes". I assume that will be shown sometime.

2) Someone posted about who fixed Starbuck's ship. I don't think it was fixed. Didn't she find he original ship (and her hair) on Earth? That had to have been a new ship (and possibly a new Starbuck).

3) Like everyone else, I still wonder about the 3000 year gap. More specifically, shouldn't the humans be a little more advanced if they were able to create skinjobs 3000 years ago? Heck, their radios still don't even work right.

-Mike


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

while I would love for it to be Gaeta  it simply cannot be anyone but Kara...she's the only one left who we know has died and come back to life...

at this point, it's either Kara or no one...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Gaeta was basically asking Baltar if he knew the type of person he was. Basically he wanted to be remembered as a good person, not as a mutineer.

Starbuck's ship was brand new as was she I suppose. I don't think anyone ever questioned how her old ship got to Earth in the first place when her ship blew up light years away from Earth.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

walkerjs said:


> You might want to watch it with the podcast playing. Which for once was released by Moore fairly soon after the show aired. Last week's podcast wasn't released until very late in the week after the show was aired and that makes me cranky. Anyway, Ron sort of explains the writing as he goes along.


I love the fact that they provide the ep+commentary soundtrack on SciFi.com. Yeah, I know they've been doing it for awhile now it seems, but this is the first ep that I've really wanted to listen to the commentary.

http://www.scifi.com/rewind/?sid=34560&eid=1017281

Are they putting these commentaries on the DVDs also?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

brermike said:


> Here is a review with a very good summary of the cylon history from this episode. It definitely cleared some things up for me after watching.
> 
> http://entil2001.com/blog9/


Kinda funny and fitting that this takes me to a blank page.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Kinda funny and fitting that this takes me to a blank page.


That's weird, the url still works for me. Maybe add the www or refresh it. Strange.


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## fergiej (Oct 9, 2002)

On the question of whether Earth was populated entirely by Cylons or not. I think not. I think that the 5 creators were human, figured out, not only how to resurrect the hybrids, but Humans as well. When they were killed in the attack, they were resurrected into the hybrid bodies they had created for themselves(ego). NOW they are hybrids. So, only they have true human thought patters and (more or less) memories. This STILL sets them apart form their 8 (7?) creations.

Only the next few will tell us, but I think this makes the most sense.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

brermike said:


> That's weird, the url still works for me. Maybe add the www or refresh it. Strange.


Here's what I see:










And no, there isn't any black text in the black area. There's no text at all.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Here's what I see:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CSS Fail?

What browser?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Ie7.


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Fleegle said:


> CSS Fail?
> 
> What browser?


I can see it fine using Safari (iPhone version) and Firefox. Very strange. Am I allowed to copy and past the text here if I mention the source?


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> *Ie7.*


Found your problem!


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Here's what I see:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe they're speechless.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think the retcon clearly stated that they were all cylons on earth...

btw: if there is a resurrection ship for the final 5, and if that is how Kara came back, I wonder who comprises the crew...


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

brermike said:


> I can see it fine using Safari (iPhone version) and Firefox. Very strange. Am I allowed to copy and past the text here if I mention the source?


Works fine for me on Linux Firefox too. Maybe try Windows FF instead of IE?


----------



## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

sbourgeo said:


> I must be missing something cause it's not clear to me.


If I'm understanding the episode correctly (and I think I am), then Daniel and the other 'final five' Cylons were placed with the colonies/humans at a time before the first Cylon war began which is approximately the time period covered by the new series, 'Caprica' (set 50 years prior to BSG), the rest of my theory is spoilerized...



Spoiler



One of the main characters in 'Caprica' is Daniel Graystone, an engineer who is instrumental in the creation of the Cylons. I believe this character to be the 'Daniel' who Cavil murdered. Between this new series and the upcoming "The Plan" BSG movie, I think a lot of the holes in Anders story will be filled in.


----------



## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

fergiej said:


> On the question of whether Earth was populated entirely by Cylons or not. I think not. I think that the 5 creators were human, figured out, not only how to resurrect the hybrids, but Humans as well. When they were killed in the attack, they were resurrected into the hybrid bodies they had created for themselves(ego). NOW they are hybrids. So, only they have true human thought patters and (more or less) memories. This STILL sets them apart form their 8 (7?) creations.
> 
> Only the next few will tell us, but I think this makes the most sense.


But the story told in this episode said that they stopped using resurrection after they became capable of biological reproduction, and these five rebuilt resurrection in time to save themselves from impending doom. That whole part of the story makes it pretty clear that they were all machines, otherwise what was the whole business about biological reproduction about?

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to believe that all humanoids on "Earth" were Cylon... just a more evolved sort than the skinjobs we had been familiar with before the final 5.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

caslu said:


> If I'm understanding the episode correctly (and I think I am), then Daniel and the other 'final five' Cylons were placed with the colonies/humans at a time before the first Cylon war began which is approximately the time period covered by the new series, 'Caprica' (set 50 years prior to BSG)...


You are incorrect. The Final Five only arrived in the Colonies at the end of the First Cylon War, and created the Unfinal Eight afterward. Only then did Cavil "imprison" the Five as humans.


Sromkie said:


> But the story told in this episode said that they stopped using resurrection after they became capable of biological reproduction, and these five rebuilt resurrection in time to save themselves from impending doom. That whole part of the story makes it pretty clear that they were all machines, otherwise what was the whole business about biological reproduction about?


It was stated outright that all the people on Earth were Cylons.

I think part of the problem is the writers' insistence on continuing to call the Spylons "machines" long after it became clear that logically, they are nothing of the sort. That stubbornness has led them into all kinds of bizarre contortions. But the fact remains that the Spylons are almost exactly as human as the humans (given that they are almost impossible to distinguish even with extensive medical testing, unless they are reduced to bones in which case the testing magically becomes fast and easy as on Earth).

Another part of the problem (well, kind of the same part) is that they made it all up as they went along, and the different parts really don't fit together very well no matter how much they try to retcon it.


----------



## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

caslu said:


> If I'm understanding the episode correctly (and I think I am), then Daniel and the other 'final five' Cylons were placed with the colonies/humans at a time before the first Cylon war began which is approximately the time period covered by the new series, 'Caprica' (set 50 years prior to BSG), the rest of my theory is spoilerized...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The five came after the first war was already in progress. They showed up and put a stop to it by offering to make skinjobs for the Centurions. They were put on the colonies sometime between the first and second wars.

::edit:: just a few moments too slow. I need to learn to post faster.


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think part of the problem is the writers' insistence on continuing to call the Spylons "machines" long after it became clear that logically, they are nothing of the sort. That stubbornness has led them into all kinds of bizarre contortions. But the fact remains that the Spylons are almost exactly as human as the humans (given that they are almost impossible to distinguish even with extensive medical testing, unless they are reduced to bones in which case the testing magically becomes fast and easy as on Earth).


Yeah. I only used the word machine as a way to clarify that they were not human. Since they were not able to biologically reproduce originally they were not as close to human then as they are now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sromkie said:


> Yeah. I only used the word machine as a way to clarify that they were not human. Since they were not able to biologically reproduce originally they were not as close to human then as they are now.


Although there are plenty of humans who are not able to reproduce biologically (hence the multi-billion-dollar fertility industry)...

The way they've set up the Spylons, you simply have to accept certain facts about them and reject others, because the facts are contradictory. But it's entirely possible to accept a set of facts that results in the Spylons being entirely human. If they're not entirely human, then much of what has been established about them is complete gibberish.

On the other hand, it's impossible for them to be even remotely human. That's one of the things I really hate about this show--the contempt it has for basic science and for the intelligence of its viewers.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Yet you continue to watch and comment. To much TV out there to waste my time on something if I don't respect it.


----------



## rgswff2 (Feb 23, 2001)

zalusky said:


> Yet you continue to watch and comment. To much TV out there to waste my time on something if I don't respect it.


 While I completely agree, you must not read many of his posts. That is his modus operandi. It is easier to just accept than to try to make sense of why he does that.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ..............
> 
> The way they've set up the Spylons, you simply have to accept certain facts about them and reject others, because the facts are contradictory. But it's entirely possible to accept a set of facts that results in the Spylons being entirely human. If they're not entirely human, then much of what has been established about them is complete gibberish.
> 
> On the other hand, it's impossible for them to be even remotely human. That's one of the things I really hate about this show--the contempt it has for basic science and for the intelligence of its viewers.


Glowing red spine anyone? I still don't see how they're going to retcon that other then ignoring it.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rgswff2 said:


> While I completely agree, you must not read many of his posts. That is his modus operandi. It is easier to just accept than to try to make sense of why he does that.


And if you've read even more of my posts, you'll find that in the beginning I liked this show a lot, and that even as elements of the show became more and more unlikable, there were still elements that I liked. And now, even as the bad elements overwhelm the good, we're close enough to the end that I'm toughing it out just to see it through after all these years.

But yes, if this were still an ongoing show instead of one that was nearly over, I'd be gone by now.

(And you'll also find that I usually am the one who likes shows other people don't like, like Heroes, or Lost in Season 3 when lots of people were ripping on it. So I guess you actually don't know that much about my modus operandi at all!)


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Glowing red spine anyone? I still don't see how they're going to retcon that other then ignoring it.


Or interfacing with computers by stabbing a cable interface into their wrist. Boomer (or athena?) did that in an early episode. And her model even very recently did it again in the webisodes that immediately preceded this season.


----------



## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

Did we ever get an answer to what the Hybrids that run the ships are?
Why did the Hybrid call Starbuck the harbinger of doom (or something like that)?


----------



## rgswff2 (Feb 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And if you've read even more of my posts, you'll find that in the beginning I liked this show a lot, and that even as elements of the show became more and more unlikable, there were still elements that I liked. And now, even as the bad elements overwhelm the good, we're close enough to the end that I'm toughing it out just to see it through after all these years.
> 
> But yes, if this were still an ongoing show instead of one that was nearly over, I'd be gone by now.
> 
> (And you'll also find that I usually am the one who likes shows other people don't like, like Heroes, or Lost in Season 3 when lots of people were ripping on it. So I guess you actually don't know that much about my modus operandi at all!)


I wasn't trying to insult you so sorry if you took it that way.  I just meant that it tends to be your modus operandi to dissect shows to a greater degree than most people. I wasn't trying to say if that is good or bad but just you. I think most people just tend to enjoy (or not at times) the ride without analyzing everything.


----------



## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

I wonder if the hybrids are the Cylon's try and making skin jobs. That's why they are so messed up and that they have such a high stature...they are the ones that made them so they believe them to be very important.

The more I think about it, the more I am getting to understand the history. I don't like how the final 5 were originally actual skin machines. I would have rather them be humans who learned how to live forever, got complacent and forgot about it. Then with immanent doom, they re-learn how to do it to survive. 

Thus now, they are machines because their bodies technically weren't created naturally, but originally they were just humans.

---
One thing I have to say that I do like (and IMO could be an underlying theme of the entire show) is the fact that when the show is said and done, the entire cylon attack was based on pure hatred from John to Ellen. To get her back. Pure human emotions. I think that's been the constant throughout the entire show is the showing of pure, raw, human emotions.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Sromkie said:


> The five came after the first war was already in progress. They showed up and put a stop to it by offering to make skinjobs for the Centurions. They were put on the colonies sometime between the first and second wars.


I'm curious how they are going to explain Tigh fighting in the first war before he, as one of the Final Five, showed up. Do we know if Tigh and Adama fought together in the first war, or did they meet later? I suppose if nobody who was supposed to have known Tigh was still alive, then the cylons might have been able to integrate him into society.

The only other explanation I can think of is the original 12 colonies had already been destroyed by the first war, and the Galactica is actually comprised of a bunch of cylons with false memories of the destruction of the 12 colonies, created by Cavil to show the Final Five that they should strive to be more machine than human because humans are petty.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> I'm curious how they are going to explain Tigh fighting in the first war before he, as one of the Final Five, showed up. Do we know if Tigh and Adama fought together in the first war, or did they meet later? I suppose if nobody who was supposed to have known Tigh was still alive, then the cylons might have been able to integrate him into society.


my understanding is that they met after the war...I guess Tigh's war record could have been faked (which would be very hard to do for a military man)...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

So... did anyone run out and buy the $2 "cylon detector" iphone app they advertised during this episode yet? It appears to just be some fancy graphics with a yes or no random answer at the end, based on reviews.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> So... did anyone run out and buy the $2 "cylon detector" iphone app they advertised during this episode yet? It appears to just be some fancy graphics with a yes or no random answer at the end, based on reviews.


Just like the Cylon detector on the show.


----------



## w1ngman (Nov 17, 2003)

I've really appreciated reading this thread. One thing that has not been touched on I don't believe...

Early this season perhaps?... We learn of a young Will Adama touching down on an snowy planet and discovering humans (?) trapped in a 'cloning/lab' place, right? And in that building was also a 'frankenstein' cylon in a vat...creepy dude. Same episode I believe we learn that the 'old model' toasters - defenders (?) - wisk that vatted cylon/hybrid away to safety.

Okay...enough of that re-telling... Could someone help me fit that information into the history we know so far?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

w1ngman said:


> I've really appreciated reading this thread. One thing that has not been touched on I don't believe...
> 
> Early this season perhaps?... We learn of a young Will Adama touching down on an snowy planet and discovering humans (?) trapped in a 'cloning/lab' place, right? And in that building was also a 'frankenstein' cylon in a vat...creepy dude. Same episode I believe we learn that the 'old model' toasters - defenders (?) - wisk that vatted cylon/hybrid away to safety.
> 
> ...


I believe this was when the "old model" cylons were trying to create skin jobs during the first Cylon war with the 12 colonies. This was prior to the Final Five arriving and teaching them how to make the skin jobs.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

brermike said:


> I believe this was when the "old model" cylons were trying to create skin jobs during the first Cylon war with the 12 colonies. This was prior to the Final Five arriving and teaching them how to make the skin jobs.


Agreed. I believe the result was the hybrids that run the base ships.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

brermike said:


> This was prior to the Final Five arriving and teaching them how to make the skin jobs.


It's still not all clear to me.

Who made Ellen?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> It's still not all clear to me.
> 
> Who made Ellen?


Nobody. She's one of the five survivors of Earth.


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## Sromkie (Aug 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nobody. She's one of the five survivors of Earth.


Right... she was probably born biologically.. along with the rest of the final 5. She's still Cylon, but no one made her in the "constructed" sense... She made her backup bodies (or, at least developed them).


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> So... did anyone run out and buy the $2 "cylon detector" iphone app they advertised during this episode yet? It appears to just be some fancy graphics with a yes or no random answer at the end, based on reviews.


Sounds like a Palm app from back in the day. Gaydar. I suspect the same person who wrote Gaydar also wrote the Cylon Detector. Looking at his web page, I highly suspect it is him.


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

OK, let me see if I have the timeline anywhere near right...

* Thousands of years ago:
- Humans scatter from Kobol with the 13th tribe going to Earth.
- 13th tribe develops Toasters while apparently the other 12 colonies sit and drool until about a hundred years ago.
- 13th tribe and their Toasters go to war with the Toasters winning and eventually developing skinjobs/resurrection.
- Earth's skinjobs learn sexual reproduction and abandon resurrection so life has meaning.
- Skinjobs eventually create their own Toasters.
- 5 Earth skinjobs recognize the pattern and decide to recreate resurrection to save themselves from the inevitable war.
- War happens, the 5 scientists resurrect to their satellite resurrection facility.
- Those 5 decide to head for the other 12 colonies at relatavistic speeds to warn them of this cycle.

*50+ years ago:
- 12 colonies finally develop Toasters.
- Toasters revolt and go to war with colonies.
- Toasters start to work on skinjobs but only get as far as the hybrids
- 5 Earth skinjobs arrive and convince the Toasters to abandon the war in exchange for getting skinjobs.
- 8 new skinjobs are developed for the Colonial Toasters.
- New skinjob Cavil wrecks Daniel (#7) model.

*Few years ago:
- Cavil skinjob revolts and sends 5 Earth skinjobs to colonies as human to experience the suffering that he feels being non-machine has subjected him to.
- Cavil leads the current batch of Toasters and skinjobs in war on humanity.
- Any Final 5 that was killed in attacks is resurrected, gets "human" memories again, and is planted back on colonies to suffer some more.
- Ellen model dies and is resurrected with full memories for Cavil to torment as we saw in this episode.
- ???
- Profit

I don't even have a weak theory about how Starbuck resurrected complete with tatoo and shiny new Viper, how she jumped from where she died to Earth, or from there to where she rejoined fleet. For that matter who modified her memories to think that nothing unusual had happened... 

EDIT: I loved the old-school cylons in the battle at the beginning. Did they show one of the original series Basestars too? I think there was one behind the stupid "PG-13" warning...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tangent said:


> OK, let me see if I have the timeline anywhere near right...


No. The original Spylons were developed on Kobol. When the 12 tribes went to form the Colonies, the Spylons went to form Earth. Earth is and always was all-Cylon.


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## cstelter (Mar 18, 2002)

Sromkie said:


> Right... she was probably born biologically.. along with the rest of the final 5. She's still Cylon, but no one made her in the "constructed" sense... She made her backup bodies (or, at least developed them).


Further evidence of this understanding is that she made Cavil in her father's image (presumably biological father).


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## routerspecialist (Jun 19, 2008)

mjh said:


> Cavil was trying to get all of them killed... eventually. If they survived longer, that was fine w/him. The longer they survived the more they suffered only to be all the more worshipful of him when they resurrected. Cavil is Satan, symbolically. The one who, out of hubris, rebels against his creator.
> 
> On another subject, I'm really confused about the timeframe of how stuff happened. Humans on the colonies invented the cylons. But somehow the cylons got to Earth thousands of years earlier. 5 of them survived the earth's holocost and re-invented resurrection technology, traveled at relativistic sub-light speed, bringing them back to the colonies 40 years ago. They stopped the human cylon war. Helped the centurians make skinjobs - 8 models. Then Cavil, the first skinjob rebelled, did something to #7 (Daniel), killed the final 5, and when they were resurrected, emplanted them to think they were humans and left them to live on earth. 40 years later, Cavil came back to exact his revenge on humans. Because he's angry that they enslaved the toasters that they made.
> 
> ...


My guess about how this all comes about? The final five were human, once, a long time ago.....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

routerspecialist said:


> My guess about how this all comes about? The final five were human, once, a long time ago.....


No, they were humanoid Cylons long ago. They're the last survivors of Earth, the 13th (Cylon) colony.

I'm a little surprised at how many people are having trouble with this...it was laid out pretty clearly on the show, or at least I thought so.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, they were humanoid Cylons long ago. They're the last survivors of Earth, the 13th (Cylon) colony.
> 
> I'm a little surprised at how many people are having trouble with this...it was laid out pretty clearly on the show, or at least I thought so.


I think the confusion is that they were both humanoid Cylons *and* they were born (not created). I think this is throwing people off, because it's "new".


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Tangent said:


> *Few years ago:
> - Cavil skinjob revolts and sends 5 Earth skinjobs to colonies as human to experience the suffering that he feels being non-machine has subjected him to.


My problem with this is: Tigh. When was he sent back, and how does that fit in with him knowing Adama for 40+ years?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hapdrastic said:


> My problem with this is: Tigh. When was he sent back, and how does that fit in with him knowing Adama for 40+ years?


he was sent back 40 years ago...right after the end of the cylon war...

I, too, don't see why it's so hard to understand that everyone on Earth was a cylon who can reproduce...the 13th tribe to leave Kobol was the cylons...they didn't leave with the other 12th tribe since the war destroyed Kobol and they clearly could not co-exist with the humans...each went their separate ways from Kobol...


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## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

Here is an excellent summary of the cylon history described in this episod from the Battlestar Galactica Review Blog (http://entil2001.com/blog9/). I have copied/pasted the relevant portions since the link doesn't seem to work for everyone. Hopefully, this will clear up some confusion - it did for me:



> Essentially, the story fits together as predicted, just with specifics where the vague hand-waving would have been. Back on Kobol, thousands of years ago, Humans created artificial life, against the warnings and prohibitions of their gods. Initially there were centurions, but eventually there were the skinjobs. These Cylons rebelled, and in the ensuing war, Kobol was destroyed. The Humans went on to create the 12 Colonies; the Cylons fled. (At this point, they also had the technology for resurrection.)
> 
> The Cylons ultimately wound up on the path that the ragtag fleet followed, from the algae planet to Earth. At some point, they gained the ability to procreate on their own. With the need to resurrect no longer present for survival, the technology was lost and the Cylons spent much time in peace.
> 
> ...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

My head hurts.

But thanks for the reprint!


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## jbppsu (Jun 2, 2008)

1. Presumably Tigh appeared shortly after the first Cylon war. 
2. The Cylon war was ended by the final five (sic).
3. Cavell exiles the final five (sic) because of all the pain and suffering being a non-machine machine has caused him.

Given 1, 2, and 3 we're supposed to believe that Cavell suffered all this pain almost instantly? Seriously? I guess this is the sort of thing that happens when you just make it up as you go along.

This show is just such a complete disappointment. I'm glad others feel that way. I can't believe anyone actually likes this show anymore. The only reason I'm watching is to see how the train wreck ends. The sad thing is that if you just accept the fact that each episode has nothing at all to do with any that came before it sometimes it's actually pretty good. The character names and the actors stay the same episode to episode, but that's about it.

As someone else said. This episode wasn't a retcon. You need "con" to have a retcon.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> very strange casting call on the brain surgeon...isn't that the guy from The Daily Show?...


As the OP mentioned...he's the PC guy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jbppsu said:


> 1. Presumably Tigh appeared shortly after the first Cylon war.
> 2. The Cylon war was ended by the final five (sic).
> 3. Cavell exiles the final five (sic) because of all the pain and suffering being a non-machine machine has caused him.
> 
> Given 1, 2, and 3 we're supposed to believe that Cavell suffered all this pain almost instantly?


Not only that, but between the end of the war and Tigh's appearance, the Final Five did the R&D on the Not-So-Final Eight, grew them, and let them grow into positions of leadership from which Cavil was able to launch his coup.

But as I said before, you have to pick and choose what you will accept from the show's "continuity" and reject the rest. There's no way it can all make sense.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But as I said before, you have to pick and choose what you will accept from the show's "continuity" and reject the rest. There's no way it can all make sense.


And that's what destroys suspension of disbelief.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> As the OP mentioned...he's the PC guy.


He's also from The Daily Show


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

This plot twist could have been really interesting if they had thought of it 4 years ago. Doing with "18 months ago" thing just shows that they had no idea what they were going to do. Imagine instead if bits and pieces of this had been shown throughout the last season or 2 instead. I could imagine seeing Ellen waking up in the resurrection chamber as the last shot right after they left new Caprica. Then nothing for awhile and little snippets as we went along. It would have avoided the whole retcon episode problem.

Of course if the writers were better (think Babylon 5 where every little thing ended up being important later), we wouldn't have been in this situation at all.

BTW, I was really close when I said everyone was a Cylon a couple of weeks ago.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> He's also from The Daily Show


That's the same guy, eh? I don't watch the DS, so I was unaware.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I rewatched the episode, and it's mostly all clear to me now. 

Best line of the show...Adama to Chief: "Are you telling me they frakkin' cut corners?!"

Um, yeah...look at every piece of paper or picture you own.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

There are pieces that don't even jive with what we knew earlier this season. Tyrol saw himself at a fruit stand, just casually looking around, and then BOOM! But now we learn that he and Tory were madly in love? If I knew there was most likely an impending nuclear holocaust, I probably wouldn't leave my family at all.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

doom1701 said:


> There are pieces that don't even jive with what we knew earlier this season. Tyrol saw himself at a fruit stand, just casually looking around, and then BOOM! But now we learn that he and Tory were madly in love? If I knew there was most likely an impending nuclear holocaust, I probably wouldn't leave my family at all.


But they knew they had resurrection all set up, right?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

doom1701 said:


> There are pieces that don't even jive with what we knew earlier this season. Tyrol saw himself at a fruit stand, just casually looking around, and then BOOM! But now we learn that he and Tory were madly in love? If I knew there was most likely an impending nuclear holocaust, I probably wouldn't leave my family at all.


I think impending was intended as "some time in the next 10 years"...


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> But they knew they had resurrection all set up, right?


There's another one; in the first ep when we learn that Ellen is the final final, Saul is freaking out, and Ellen tells him that it will be OK. Sure didn't seem like Saul knew about resurrection.


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

doom1701 said:


> There's another one; in the first ep when we learn that Ellen is the final final, Saul is freaking out, and Ellen tells him that it will be OK. Sure didn't seem like Saul knew about resurrection.


Your first time skydiving will freak you out too even though you know you have a parachute...


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Tangent said:


> Your first time skydiving will freak you out too even though you know you have a parachute...


Great answer - I took a class and got into a DC3 with 20 other people and they got up to altitude and I watched people jump in heats of three and then it was my turn and my legs turned to jelly. The second jump I had to crawl out onto the strut of a cessna and slowly slide out onto the wing. The jumpmaster told us to keep our eyes on her in the plane versus looking down and it made a big difference.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

hefe said:


> I rewatched the episode, and it's mostly all clear to me now.
> 
> Best line of the show...Adama to Chief: "Are you telling me they frakkin' cut corners?!"
> 
> Um, yeah...look at every piece of paper or picture you own.


Heheh.....my thoughts exactly, "There _are_ no corners in the Galactica universe."


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Heheh.....my thoughts exactly, "There _are_ no corners in the Galactica universe."


Actually, there are twice as many corners.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> Actually, there are twice as many corners.


That's a pretty obtuse comment...

Math pun.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Fascinating thread. I've had my own ideas but they've been revised as I've read others.

Here's my thoughts: 

If the "skinjobs" on Earth looked human, behaved like humans, had internal organs like humans, had sex and bables like humans, then what exactly makes them not human? The only thing I can think of is that Cylons are born in adult form in a vat of goo. That means the Earthlings were human.

What of the "tests" of the bones? In the beginning of the series, skinjobs were biologically identical to humans. Apparently there were some subtle genetic differences discovered which manifests in the disease at one point that killed Cylons but not humans, and in the fact that skinjobs could not reproduce (some heavy genetic matchup work required for conception.) But there is a DNA marker that identifies Cylon. If the 13th tribe left Kobol 3,000 years ago, that is long enough for a genetic mutation to occur that all Earth people would have and other would lack. This exists in real life, as DNA scientists can tell who has middle-eastern ancestry and who doesn't. Since the skinjobs 1-8 are based on Earth DNA, they all have the genetic marker as well.

Another way that the "Final 5" are distinctly differnent from 1-8 is that they can age. Tye had hair when Adama first knew him. 

The one thing that doesn't fit is Kara. No, she's not Daniel. That would be cheating, plus Anders mentioned Daniel but didn't connected him to Kara. Maybe she's a Ellen Project that Cavel doesn't even know about? (but I suspect Lee Oben(?) does.) And where did that new Viper come from. If not Ellen, maybe some sort of Devine Intervention????

The other thing that doesn't fit is the relation to the actual historical timeline. Throughout the series I wondered what they would find on Earth and when does the show take place:

1) The distant past: The decendents of the RTF settle on Earth, forget their origins and become us.
2) The not so distant past: The decendents of the 13th settle on Earth in ancient times, forget their origins. The survivors of the RTF arrive 2000 years ago, assimilate into Earth culture, and Baltar becomes Jesus.
3) The near future: The decendents of the 13th settle on Earth in ancient times, forget their origins. The RTF arrives around present day. 
4) Distant Future.

But what we've learned is that the 13th tribe arrives 3000 years prior, lives on Earth for 1000 years and blows itself up. That doesn't make sense, unless this is the very distant future and people (us) existed on Earth long before the arrival of the 13th Tribe.

Well, we'll see, and my prediction si that thiose who think they know what will happen are wrong.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I suspect BG "Earth" has no relation to our "Earth."


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect BG "Earth" has no relation to our "Earth."


on first glance, I say the name is the same


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I thought Moore said their Earth _was_ our Earth.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I thought Moore said their Earth _was_ our Earth.


in fairness to those who disagree...he said that weeks, maybe months, ago...so maybe he didn't know then that the statement was not true!


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

When they arrived at Earth, North America was clearly visible. Not to mention the constillation Orion clearly visible as they approached Earth (and the Zodiac temple on Kobol).

The BSG Earth is our Earth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dancar said:


> When they arrived at Earth, North America was clearly visible. Not to mention the constillation Orion clearly visible as they approached Earth (and the Zodiac temple on Kobol).
> 
> The BSG Earth is our Earth.


Well, it's an Earth with our geology and skies. But if they're going to explain how our Earth can tie in with their Earth, Kobol, and the Colonies, that should be...entertaining.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alternate reality Earth, in the same sense that any TV show is really an alternate reality Earth since none of the characters exist in our reality. 

Greg


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## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it's an Earth with our geology and skies.


Hey, don't you remember all those old Star Trek (original series) episodes where the Enterprise would arrive at a planet that was an exact twin of Earth? Same landmasses, etc? Well, obviously, the Galactica crew has encountered one of Kirk's surplus identical-twin-to-Earth planets.

Problem solved!


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

ThePennyDropped said:


> Hey, don't you remember all those old Star Trek (original series) episodes where the Enterprise would arrive at a planet that was an exact twin of Earth? Same landmasses, etc? Well, obviously, the Galactica crew has encountered one of Kirk's surplus identical-twin-to-Earth planets.
> 
> Problem solved!


This is actually where Kirk went at the end of _Star Trek: Generations_. He built the female skinjobs so he'd have tail to chase and the male skinjobs so he'd have competition.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it's an Earth with our geology and skies. But if they're going to explain how our Earth can tie in with their Earth, Kobol, and the Colonies, that should be...entertaining.


Yes, it should be, as this is an entertainment show. 

Notice that Star Wars never makes a reference to Earth. It takes place in a fictional alternate universe "a long time ago in a galaxy far away." OTOH Star Trek takes takes place in the future, with plenty of references to Earth and locations like Chicago and San Francisco (wasn't Kirk born in Colorado?)

So BSG (since the original 1970s show) is clearly linked to our reality, but part of the mystery of the premise is that the relationship to the history we know isn't clear. Are we the decendents of the 13th Tribe? Did Humankind originate on Earth and later settle Kobal and not originate on Kobal as the BSGers beleive (did the Kobalians forget their origin?) Or was Earth settled prior to the 13th tribe during an earlier diaspora?

I don't take such a dim view of Moore and I think he will clear this up in a satisfactory way.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If the only humans in the milky way galaxy lived on the 4th planet from our sun, wouldn't that be "Earth"?

-smak-


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

smak said:


> If the only humans in the milky way galaxy lived on the 4th planet from our sun, wouldn't that be "Earth"?
> 
> -smak-


Hmm. 4th rock from the sun...


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

If we lived on the 4th planet of our sun, we'd be Martians


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Dancar said:


> If we lived on the 4th planet of our sun, we'd be Martians


Nah, there would be no Mars, because we'd name that 3rd planet after some blue God.

-smak-


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

If their Earth is not our Earth, then "All Along The Watchtower" must be one hell of a coincidence.


...and the RIAA is trying to figure out how to find a process server who will work intergalactically.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Daniel must be Bob Dylan.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> If their Earth is not our Earth, then "All Along The Watchtower" must be one hell of a coincidence.


True, but if there Earth IS our Earth, then I can't think of a plausible explanation for how the Colonies have so much Earth culture.

It probably IS our Earth, however, and just doesn't make sense.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> True, but if there Earth IS our Earth, then I can't think of a plausible explanation for how the Colonies have so much Earth culture.


If you're talking about military titles, and the suits worn by Lee and Zerek, etc, that's because designing a completely alien culture would distract from the purpose of the story they are trying to tell - the same reason that all the Star Wars movies are in English instead of a fictional language Lucas made up with English subtitles. As for the the 12 planets being named after the Zodiac, that may be that the show takes place in the distant past and the the constallations represent the extraterrestrial locations of the other colonies. Or the show is in the future, and the twelve groups took the names from the constellation names.

Or it is because in the 1970s Glen Larson borrowed the Zodiac names because they sounded appropriate in the TV series he developed as a vehicle to retell stories based on Greco-Roman/Christian/Mormon mythology in a Star Trek/Wars-like setting.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

ThePennyDropped said:


> Hey, don't you remember all those old Star Trek (original series) episodes where the Enterprise would arrive at a planet that was an exact twin of Earth? Same landmasses, etc? Well, obviously, the Galactica crew has encountered one of Kirk's surplus identical-twin-to-Earth planets.
> 
> Problem solved!


Then why doesn't everyone have a goatee?!?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I say that since there is no evidence of a nuclear war in Earth's past, that the story is in Earth's future...


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## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> I suspect BG "Earth" has no relation to our "Earth."


Totally agree with that.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

Dancar said:


> It takes place in a fictional alternate universe "a long time ago in a galaxy far away.


You left out a "far". 

That should be "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away".

We must give attention to details. We don't want to be like the producers of Battlestar Galactica, now do we?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It probably IS our Earth, however, and just doesn't make sense.


Wait, are you implying that there is stuff in BSG that doesn't make sense?


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Dancar said:


> OTOH Star Trek takes takes place in the future, with plenty of references to Earth and locations like Chicago and San Francisco (wasn't Kirk born in Colorado?)


Iowa.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

danieljanderson said:


> Did we ever get an answer to what the Hybrids that run the ships are?
> Why did the Hybrid call Starbuck the harbinger of doom (or something like that)?


Possible smeek:
The whole Starbuck thing has been bothering me especially after she found her own corpse and wreckage of her viper. Also they find the Earth a nuked planet and cylons where living there, this whole thing doesnt sit well with me. Since the Hybrid called the harbinger of death perhaps Starbuck traveled back in time and caused the nuclear war. If you really wanted to get crazy you can even somehow throw in a cylon that is marooned with her well (ode to the original BSG). Then perhaps the cylon tech is reverse engineered and this causes the nuclear war? This and $2 will get you on the subway


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

The nuclear war on Earth was 2000 years earlier. The corpse she found was much more recent.

OTOH maybe Daniel, the mysterious skinjob #8, will turn out to be John Conner


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## flaminio (May 21, 2004)

Dancar said:


> OTOH maybe Daniel, the mysterious skinjob #8, will turn out to be John Conner


I still want to believe that the Earth that BSG found is "Earth That Was" from Firefly, and that in the last episode the Galactica teams up with the Serenity for the final battle -- which of course would make Daniel be Captain Reynolds .


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Dancar said:


> The nuclear war on Earth was 2000 years earlier. The corpse she found was much more recent.
> 
> OTOH maybe Daniel, the mysterious skinjob #8, will turn out to be John Conner


They may have left her corpes recongnizable for dramatic effect.


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