# TiVo: Time to step up and fix QAM



## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*This weekend*
Comcast Atlanta (Stone Mountain headend) finally restored the PSIP data for the big four networks they have removed since January 2008. I was shocked that this happened 'by the end of 2008' just as they had promised. Vista Media Center (SP1 and TV Pack 2008) immediately detected this data and reconfigured itself changing carrier frequency identities to the PSIP value.

Vista process was completely painless and needed no direct user input, just the way I would have expected TiVoHD to react.

TiVo was a bit different, manually scanned for new channels and the PSIP identities were Detected. Added the discovered channels to the channel listings (thumbs up). Unfortunately all programs were 'to be announced'. Connected to TiVo for latest guide data and allowed 24 hours for processing/indexing with no change in status.

TiVo cutomer service and lineup assistance have repeatedly stated that the (stripped by Comcast) missing PSIP data (and resulting channel frequency assignment mapping) was the cause of program data to appear as 'to be announced' in the guide. I'm now confused and dismayed as this now appears to be misinformation...

2.1 ant WSBDT Program data correct
2.1 cbl WSB HD To be announced

5.1 ant WAGADT Program data correct
5.1 cbl WAGA HD To be announced

8.1 ant WGTVDT Program data correct (and finally applied to the correct RF broadcast frequency, 12)
8.1 cbl WGTV-HD To be announced (and just a lovely gray screen from Comcast)

11.1 ant WXIADT Program data correct
11.1 cbl WXIA-DT To be announced

46.1 ant WGCLDT Progrm data correct
46.1 cbl WGCL HD To be announced

Aparently the confusion is now the way that TiVo/Tribune identifies channel broadcast IDs in the database. Come on TiVo, correct the names or add data to the alternate names you have invented for this database. If TiVo has any hope of being an ongoing player in the market, they need to become a customer friendly and experience focused company again.

Comcast has stepped up to provide the FCC required data that TiVo has stated was necessary to have this information to reliably get guide data for QAM channels. No longer is it necessary for TiVo to track local Comcast lineup changes as the PSIP data will be the proper identificaion as it already is on broadcast channels. Will TiVo now step up and fix the channel identities so we can really get program data? Or, will we forever be pushed to rent costly cable cards from Comcast to make up for TiVo/Tribune database inadequacies...

Comcast is certainly not being allowed to 'toss a bone' with only the 'big four' networks PSIP data. I will be continuing to harass them for the PBS, smaller network and local PSIP data since it is broadcast locally...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just get the cablecards


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> just get the cablecards


I don't the CableCards either. I just want Clear QAM
Full data and support.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I don't the CableCards either. I just want Clear QAM
> Full data and support.


Comcast offers MCARDs for $1.75-$2.50 each without a digital cable subscription.

I don't understand why anyone would have Comcast without a CableCard with the cost being so low.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> Comcast offers MCARDs for $1.75-$2.50 each without a digital cable subscription.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would have Comcast without a CableCard with the cost being so low.


Its because of the painful, 5-8 times it takes comcast to get it right.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Comcast offers MCARDs for $1.75-$2.50 each without a digital cable subscription.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would have Comcast without a CableCard with the cost being so low.


It's a pain. It's an unnecessary extra cost (and I have a Series 3, so I would need 2 cards) and hassle every step of the way. For example, for me to get CableCARDs, I would have to get them out to install it, sign up for digital service, then call and cancel digital service (I only meed it for the basic channels). There's no reason I should have to go through this when I don't need the cards for anything except the guide data.

TiVo should provide QAM mapping, period.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

In many cases cablecards are more painful. I get more cable channels _without_ cablecards than I did in my last few months of having them (bad channel maps, authorization issues, etc). Without them you can bypass your cable company's ineptness (if they are). Went OTA + basic and would never look back. QAM mapping would allow me to get rid of my antennas, or not rely on them in bad weather.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

dig_duggler said:


> In many cases cablecards are more painful. I get more cable channels _without_ cablecards than I did in my last few months of having them (bad channel maps, authorization issues, etc). Without them you can bypass your cable company's ineptness (if they are). Went OTA + basic and would never look back. QAM mapping would allow me to get rid of my antennas, or not rely on them in bad weather.


Yeah, same here, in case I wasn't clear above - it's a pain to have to deal with CableCARDs only for guide data. I have OTA on the Series 3 and cable on the Series 2 - would be nice to at least have the option to go with HD cable on the Series 3 too if needed, without having to pay up for CCs.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Comcast*
local office employees are truly inept and bordering on incompetent. Locally Comcast will not provide cable cards without subscribing to a digital package. Faking Comcast out by subscribing/cancelling a digital package seems underhanded and wrong to me, YMMV.

I have exactly zero interest for any of the additonal channels that would be decrypted by cable cards. I also don't care for the suggestion to 'just get cable cards', because it will just improve Comcasts bottom line with no actual value to me. TiVo has a fresh opportunity to demonstrate a renewed commitment to consumers and not just thier customer, Comcast.

While I feel sorry for TiVo and thier partner Comcast regarding the slow development of the MotoTiVo product, I'm not sorry enough to spend more every month just to keep the corporate relationship happy.

This development seems to signal an olive branch to Comcast customers regarding the local content they are required to provide in the clear based on FCC rules. I'm hoping that TiVo will fix the inexplicably different channel identites in the database allowing proper use of the TiVoHD as we might have expected when purchasing a TiVo product rather than something else.

I have no confidence in the local Comcast installers getting cable cards properly installed and configured in one trip. Neighbors have averaged 3+ visits for cable card intalls in regular Comcast set top boxes, so I am truly frightened how many visits it could take with a TiVo product. I may be a victim of forum panic and installer mistrust but there seems to be a pattern of foolishness involving cable cards that I would prefer to avoid...


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I firmly believe that Tivo is losing many potential customers because of this. I will outline a situation that is repeated every day - 

Person A: I want to get a DVR, tech geek what should I get
Tech geek : Anything but the Tivo because on top of a monthly fee to Tivo you also have to rent a card from the cable company to get those channels to work
Person A: Why would I have to rent anything? My no name generic chinese TV gets the digital channels without any extra stuff
Tech Geek: I know but Tivo is different. You should just get the cable company DVR since you could always return it if you don't like it.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> just get the cablecards


Reasons to _not want _CableCARDs:

In most markets, have to pay for a truck roll to install them
In most markets, have to pay monthly to rent them
S3 owners need 2 cards, often at >2 times the cost for one
Some markets will charge extra digital outlet fees and/or digital gateway fees for one or both cards
Some markets require a digital cable subscription to get CableCARDs
CableCARDs can be configured to force use of Digital Simulcast versions of many channels, often at reduced picture quality, lack of recording quality options on the TiVo (to save space), and/or addition of DRM which breaks multi-room viewing and TiVo2Go
Some installations turn out to be a nightmare of broken or incorrect CableCARDs, rescheduled visits, and general cable company ineptitude
TiVo shouldn't expect their customers to go through all of the above just to get guide data on ~6 local HD channels, _when TiVo's competitors (Moxi) do not_.
Isn't TiVo supposed to be "*TV Your Way*"? Or maybe it's just _your _way...


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

ciper said:


> I firmly believe that Tivo is losing many potential customers because of this. I will outline a situation that is repeated every day -
> 
> Person A: I want to get a DVR, tech geek what should I get
> Tech geek : Anything but the Tivo because on top of a monthly fee to Tivo you also have to rent a card from the cable company to get those channels to work
> ...


I've had this exact same conversation with multiple people, with the exception of the last part: I don't know of any cable company HD DVR that's available to Clear QAM watchers. Cable company owned HD DVRs require upgrades in service (digital tier/HD tier/whatever the MSO wants to call it to get more money out of people). TiVo could have been the _only _option for people wanting a DVR for clear QAM recording, but they waited too long, and now Moxi is out with a competitive device that does support clear QAM recording, no CableCARDs needed. I think TiVo missed a big opportunity.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Saxion said:


> [*]Some markets require a digital cable subscription to get CableCARDs


Many subscribers get basic cable and want to keep the monthly fees down. In order to get digital stations on the Tivo they would not only have to pay for the truck roll and cable card rental but also upgrade to digital cable.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Saxion said:


> TiVo could have been the _only _option for people wanting a DVR for clear QAM recording, but they waited too long, and now Moxi is out with a competitive device that does support clear QAM recording, no CableCARDs needed. I think TiVo missed a big opportunity.


 I believe Tivo blew it on this as well (as has been beaten to death in the other threads), however an $800 Moxi simply to be used for clear QAM recording is hardly a viable alternative or competitive threat.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ciper said:


> I firmly believe that Tivo is losing many potential customers because of this. I will outline a situation that is repeated every day -
> 
> Person A: I want to get a DVR, tech geek what should I get
> Tech geek : Anything but the Tivo because on top of a monthly fee to Tivo you also have to rent a card from the cable company to get those channels to work
> ...


Unfortunately, that has become my standard response too. I love my TiVo, but it takes too much fidgeting to get it running properly these days to recommend it to anyone who isn't already the tech-interested type.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

TiVo hasn't blown anything. You QAM zealots are in la-la land thinking that anyone gives two cents about it.

Only the cheapest of the cheap would spend hundreds of dollars on a premium product and then worry about the incremental cost of cable cards. (I pay $1.50/month for two).

Please. If QAM is that important to you, you have options. TiVo isn't one of them. Why you waste your time on a product that doesn't do what you want (while others out there do) is beyond me.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> TiVo hasn't blown anything. You QAM zealots are in la-la land thinking that anyone gives two cents about it.
> 
> Only the cheapest of the cheap would spend hundreds of dollars on a premium product and then worry about the incremental cost of cable cards. (I pay $1.50/month for two).
> 
> Please. If QAM is that important to you, you have options. TiVo isn't one of them. Why you waste your time on a product that doesn't do what you want (while others out there do) is beyond me.


It's not just about the additional CableCARD cost, as has already been mentioned. It's about ease of use and versatility more than anything else.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I haven't gotten cablecards because every time I've called comcast about it, the drone didn't know what I was talking about; and they require a truck roll anyway.

There's no reason to require a truck roll.


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> Only the cheapest of the cheap would spend hundreds of dollars on a premium product and then worry about the incremental cost of cable cards. (I pay $1.50/month for two).


And I pay $16/month for 4 (Fios CCs are $4 each and no m-cards yet). And 99% of what I record is on clear qam channels. So basically I am paying ~$200/year b/c TiVo hasn't implemented a common feature.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

TolloNodre said:


> TiVo hasn't blown anything. You QAM zealots are in la-la land thinking that anyone gives two cents about it.


YOU pay 1.50 a month. I pay 3.95 per card and some pay a dollar more. Thats for a single card, what if I have two Tivos? What if both of them are series 3? That would be 15.80 extra a month ON TOP OF the digital cable tier , the HD teir (yeah its extra in many places), and a charge to have the cable techs come out to install it.

Don't forget I have to schedule a time to be home, as in NOT WORKING which is basically another cost. If you have read this forum enough you would know the most of the time the install does NOT go smoothly so I either have to spend additional time with them or schedule yet another day to be home from work.

With a single THD my friends cable bill would have increased by 19$ PER MONTH on top of the 30 installation charge to get channels that a POS TV in the kids playroom can receive with no hacks. That's 228$ extra a year for something that can *easily* be solved by Tivo. Add the cost of the Tivo hardware and its subscription and you can see that many see it as a no brainer to NOT get a TIVO.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

MickeS said:


> It's not just about the additional CableCARD cost, as has already been mentioned. It's about ease of use and versatility more than anything else.


It's a tool designed to use cable cards.
What can be more "easy" and "versatile" than that?

What does QAM support add over and above cable cards?
Nothing.

Erroneous or erratic PSIP data combined with cable systems that constantly move channels makes QAM entirely unsuited for anything like a DVR.

TiVo knows what they're doing.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

I nearly sent my TiVo back when I realized it wouldn't map the QAM stations, but I waited till it was too late thinking I might find a work around. So, I agree TiVo should fix this. I finally did get cable cards and they're worth it for other reasons. I get all of the basic channels in digital, even though I'm not a digital subscriber and of course, I get guide data for my QAM channels. Plus, I get the HD equivalent to other basic cable channels (i.e. ESPN, USA, etc...).


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Scyber said:


> And I pay $16/month for 4 (Fios CCs are $4 each and no m-cards yet). And 99% of what I record is on clear qam channels. So basically I am paying ~$200/year b/c TiVo hasn't implemented a common feature.


Then why don't you move to one of those products that has implemented this 'common feature' and save yourself $200?

That's what I don't understand.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Cable cards are created to separate security from the box. Nothing more.



TolloNodre said:


> It's a tool designed to use cable cards.
> What can be more "easy" and "versatile" than that?


A tool which supports the existing channels available to it.



TolloNodre said:


> What does QAM support add over and above cable cards?


Again the cable card was only created to handle decryption. It is a side effect that it helps map channels. This is proven because people have used the Tivo with no cable card but with an SDV dongle and were able to tune the QAM channels properly and with guide data!



TolloNodre said:


> Erroneous or erratic PSIP data combined with cable systems that constantly move channels makes QAM entirely unsuited for anything like a DVR.


The cable company does not make changes at random. We may not be aware of their plans, or the first concern, but I promise you every change is carefully planned out. Other than SDV they are not constantly moving channels.

If you read this forum often enough you will see that some cable companies have announced they would fix the PSIP data and restore it to its prior configuration.



TolloNodre said:


> TiVo knows what they're doing.


And that is the problem. What motivation does Tivo have to not implement this? Users have already found its possible to add this information to *unhacked* units so its obviously not something hard to implement.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TolloNodre said:


> Then why don't you move to one of those products that has implemented this 'common feature' and save yourself $200?
> 
> That's what I don't understand.


Because everything in the world has trade-offs. IMHO, the good of Tivo far outweighs the bad, but I too agree this is one of the bad things. (Another example of a 'bad thing' -- no editing on the old Tivo/DVD recorder combinations plus other issues -- so I ended up buying a hard drive/DVD recorder that's much more VCR-like than a Tivo. It has LOTS of issues compared to Tivo, and I would have FAR preferred paying for the Tivo UI on a recorder that could edit recordings and burn to DVD in multiple sessions.. But I still use my Tivos _and_ this other recorder daily.)

The lack of QAM remapping is not a showstopper for most of us, but it is one feature we'd like to have. (and as I've said many times before, even as a "lifetime subscriber" because I don't like to pay monthly, I *would* pay an extra one-time-fee for this feature.)


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

ciper said:


> ...so its obviously not something hard to implement.


Maybe not hard to implement, but it would be horrible to support.

No cable companies don't move channels around at random for no reason, but they do move them, and therein lies the problem. Everytime channels move, for a small number of users they would receive a lot of calls and complaints, which I'm sure they don't want to bother with.

To me this whole QAM argument is like buying a car that doesn't have a feature you want, and then complaining that it doesn't have after you buy it.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

ciper said:


> What motivation does Tivo have to not implement this?


Because no one in their right mind will spend time and money to duplicate functionality that already exists with cable cards. QAM adds zero value to your average cable customer who wants digital channels - especially now that more systems are going 100% digital.

Eventually everyone will have to have cable cards, a digital box or a DTA to see even basic channels. And the whole argument becomes moot.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> Because no one in their right mind will spend time and money to duplicate functionality that already exists with cable cards. QAM adds zero value to your average cable customer who wants digital channels - especially now that more systems are going 100% digital.
> 
> Eventually everyone will have to have cable cards, a digital box or a DTA to see even basic channels. And the whole argument becomes moot.


The average customer doesn't WANT digital channels - the cable companies have had to FORCE them to get a box etc to do this. What most people want is simplicity, inexpensive service with the networks and a few more channels. Right now, the only way to get inexpensive cable service with just a few channels and a DVR is normally with TiVo - many cable companies require you to subscribe to expanded digital cable just to get a DVR.

So TiVo would have an advantage if it was able to supply a DVR that required no contact with the cable company beyond getting the basic cable going. With the need for cable cards, you still have to go through the exact same steps as if you were getting a cable DVR, so why even bother adding the extra step of getting a TiVo?


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*TiVo*
has obviously created the PSIP 'cable' channels in thier database with a purpose in mind.

The frequency mapped channels are still there for cable cards and tuning resolvers to handle. TiVo has apparently commited many resources to the creation of the tuning resolver and using PSIP mapping could render that product useless.

These channel entries do not seem to be random, but are simply not fully supported by TiVo at this time. It appears that these PSIP listings could be populated with data or renamed/remapped to a current channel that already has data.

TiVo already depends on RF mapping and PSIP data from broadcasters to map channels. Why are cable operators less trustworthy? Darn, I forgot that this is TWC and Comcast we are talking about. Since TiVo is already recognizing the PSIP channel mapping without additonal changes it may be easier than we think.

I don't know how hard it would actually be to implement database changes, but I feel that it is more about the will of TiVo, Inc to support consumers and not Evil Cable Companies...


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

TolloNodre said:


> Eventually everyone will have to have cable cards, a digital box or a DTA to see even basic channels. And the whole argument becomes moot.


*Because*
cable operators are REQUIRED by the FCC to broadcast local stations 'in the clear'. TiVo requires that owners rent cable cards to make use of TiVo program data on these channels. If your TV has an ATSC tuner, you too can watch those clear channels without a cable box or cable cards.

Evil Cable Companies will always try to brainwash customers into believing that they must rent boxes and subscribe to ever more expensive 'metallic named' packages to get even the most basic services...


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## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I'm sorry, but local Comcast offices have different prices. I have an original S3, and pay ~$14 for 2 cable cards. Technically the cards are free, but to get them I was required by their office to pay for HD on each card ... $6.95 each.

Now that I got Tivo HD, I cannot imagine paying another $7 bucks to them.

Since S3 is superior to Tivo HD in all ways (except the card usage) I am keeping it in the living room, thus THD is relegated to the bedroom. I watch HD there via QAM (which is awfully implemented in the Tivo) or MRV shows from S3 box.



bkdtv said:


> Comcast offers MCARDs for $1.75-$2.50 each without a digital cable subscription.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would have Comcast without a CableCard with the cost being so low.


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## darksurtur (Jan 2, 2008)

TolloNodre said:


> It's a tool designed to use cable cards.
> What can be more "easy" and "versatile" than that?
> 
> What does QAM support add over and above cable cards?
> ...


TiVo (series 3) is NOT "a tool designed to use cable cards." First, it fully supports OTA only. And with Netflix, Youtube, Amazon, and TTG/MRV. it is now actually more akin to a single-box solution for video. Adding full QAM support would help cement this possibility.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> just get the cablecards


Agreed.

Folks who want clear QAM support should drop TiVo and purchase a DVR that does what they want.* Until they do that they're just blowing smoke. It makes no sense for a business to incur cost if people aren't going to put their *money* where their mouths are, in significant numbers.

Funny how people talk about it being time for TiVo to "step up" when they themselves are not willing to "step up". 

____
* And if there aren't any, that should tell you something.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Bicker some of us love Tivo. We want everyone we know to use a Tivo. Unfortunately QAM mapping is a killer downside to the whole already hard to sell deal. I can't put my heart into being a "Tivo salesman" knowing the substantial cost increase most users would incur.

Back to the original point about keeping costs down this recent post shows exactly the mentality - from http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6925645#post6925645


troasti said:


> I understand the need for cable cards for guide mapping for QAM. I don't want to pay for these because I want to keep my cable bill low which is the reason I got the tivo in the first place otherwise I probably would have gotten the cable's HD DVR.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

bicker said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Folks who want clear QAM support should drop TiVo and purchase a DVR that does what they want.* Until they do that they're just blowing smoke. It makes no sense for a business to incur cost if people aren't going to put their *money* where their mouths are, in significant numbers.
> 
> ...


I'll say it again. When people ask me what HD DVR to get, I tell them to get Tivo only if they can stand all the drama associated with getting cable cards to work, plus the additional cost associated with each card. As a bonus, the "additional cost" seems nearly impossible to determine in advance. If they're not up for such adventure, I tell them to get the cable company's box. Tivo has lost a LOT of sales as more and more friends go with the cable company's box. I've just run out of patience dealing with frustrated people on their 3rd, 4th, or 5th truck roll where the CableCards still don't work correctly. Sure, it's the cable company's fault (usually), but if they drag their feet supporting Tivo, they usually get to rent their own HD DVR to those they frustrated. Conflict of interest.

And don't get me started on how many Tivo HDs I've dealt with that had problems right out of the box. Inexcusable.

As for supporting clear QAM, if I could surf into a Tivo box and adjust the QAM lineup, I'd be more inclined to buy another. I refuse to pay for an extra CC *PLUS* an "additional outlet fee" which would run an extra $11/mo just to get GUIDE DATA for channels I can already see....

And let's discuss the latest software update that gives me what? Netflix streaming and more ads? Yawn.

End of dead-horse beating, as Tivo is now more "TV our way" rather than "TV your way". I still like the product, but it could be more.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think that folks who get TiVo to keep costs low are missing the point. TiVo is a premium DVR product. Sure, under certain circumstances you could save money with TiVo, but that's not what TiVo is for. That's not the business they claim to be in (i.e., undercutting the pricing of the cable company DVR). Rather, TiVo presents itself as a better DVR, a premium and comprehensive entertainment/media terminal in your home. If you don't like something about TiVo because it costs you some more money for something you want (or would) then TiVo's not aimed at you.

Wal-Mart is *proud *of its focus on low prices. If folks want to support budget products/services, they should support folks like Wal-Mart.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I have seen two different threads offering the service of hacking a TiVo to do QAM mapping for guide data. Both threads died after a short life from lack of actionable interest. One of the obstacles was that the hack would have to be redone if the mapping changed.

So while I am sure a nice longer thread full of appreciation would pop up if clear QAM support was added by TiVo, I do not think it would in actuality add much revenue to TiVo inc. in the form of sales. There seems to not be any pent up money involved here.

I would directly benefit from clear QAM mapping but I think the TiVo resources are better spent on series 4 and tru2way and making sure that is ready to go versus tracking down PSIP mapping issues that would just become a continual issue if clear QAM mapping was implemented.

I can understand not wanting to deal with cable cards if you are not looking for premium digital service as I employed an OTA antenna instead to get these channels. The picture is better for HD than what the cable company pumps out anyhow. Not everyone can get OTA though so that falls short.

This is indeed a dilemina that will exist until everything goes digital and down loadable security certificates are employed versus half baked cable card solution.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Wal-Mart is *proud *of its focus on low prices. If folks want to support budget products/services, they should support folks like Wal-Mart.


I do not think we will find MOXI DVR for sale at Wal-Mart anytime soon. MOXI is said to support clear QAM mapping though it is new and no one has lived with a MOXI for very long yet.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but as others have mentioned my desire for QAM mapping has NOTHING to do with cost. It is all about ease of use. I've lost significant income trying to get my cablecards working over a 1 1/2 year period which resulted in my canceling them. If it was about money, I would not have bothered. I've invested money in antennas, but weather can change performance of these. My backup for HD networks are my new channels with correct PSIP data, but for Season Passes, etc. they are not useable.

Clearly I am not understanding this problem. What is large amount of cost and research opposition to this idea alludes to? Mapping an existing lineup to an unknown channel seems to not be a hard problem. Mapping an existing lineup to known PSIP data seems even less of a hard problem. Those in the know please enlighten me.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would directly benefit from clear QAM mapping but I think the TiVo resources are better spent on series 4 and tru2way and making sure that is ready to go versus tracking down PSIP mapping issues that would just become a continual issue if clear QAM mapping was implemented.


Maybe I'm confused. I just set up a TiVo HD w/o cablecards to use with cable and OTA. When I went through GS, I selected cable only, and followed that with a channel scan. The HD found all the clear QAM channels (plus the encrypted ones). The clear channels were mapped to their correct channel numbers, e.g., 2-1 for the HD version of 2. The call signs were displayed correctly. So it seems that the missing element is guide data. For the HD already on OTA plus cablecards, the local stations were mapped to antenna in the same way, complete with guide data.

So couldn't this just be a case where TiVo requests that Tribune Co. include the local OTA digital stations in the guide info supplied already? Why would it take a lot of programming?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

lafos said:


> Maybe I'm confused. I just set up a TiVo HD w/o cablecards to use with cable and OTA. When I went through GS, I selected cable only, and followed that with a channel scan. The HD found all the clear QAM channels (plus the encrypted ones). The clear channels were mapped to their correct channel numbers, e.g., 2-1 for the HD version of 2. The call signs were displayed correctly. So it seems that the missing element is guide data. For the HD already on OTA plus cablecards, the local stations were mapped to antenna in the same way, complete with guide data.
> 
> So couldn't this just be a case where TiVo requests that Tribune Co. include the local OTA digital stations in the guide info supplied already? Why would it take a lot of programming?


ding ding ding.

Great framing of the question Sir. So for all of those opposed - why is this so hard?


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

I don't think adding this feature is a technical problem for TiVo. Rather it's a business problem in that they don't want to add a feature that the cable cos do not want.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

hiker said:


> I don't think adding this feature is a technical problem for TiVo. Rather it's a business problem in that they don't want to add a feature that the cable cos do not want.


You are probably right. But I think it's fair to point out that the cable companies have not been exactly great to Tivo with the S3/HD platform. How many install/SDV/billing/dropped authorization nightmare stories have been posted here? How many stories about cable companies blaming Tivo for the their own incompetence?

I don't see what revenue stream Tivo is losing by supporting this feature. If anything their costs go down if the implementation is trivial (which seems as simple as giving Tribune a new channel guide) as customer support calls could go way down IMO. You might think most people would get cablecards (and _most_ probably would), but how many people have you met that had a HD receiver hooked up to their TV with plain old composite cables? If they plug it in and get HD networks immediately, they may not go bother with cablecards, and they don't even know the potential hassle that awaits them. I honestly don't see the downside.

I understand in the past the clear QAM could hop all over, but that's not the case for many anymore.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I do not think we will find MOXI DVR for sale at Wal-Mart anytime soon. MOXI is said to support clear QAM mapping though it is new and no one has lived with a MOXI for very long yet.


And the Moxi costs $799, and it is the new entry into the market and therefore needs to offer something more.



dig_duggler said:


> Clearly I am not understanding this problem. What is large amount of cost and research opposition to this idea alludes to?


First, understand that you're not seeing *any* "opposition" to this idea, at least not in the manner you allude to. My comments criticize only the *expectation* that this service should be provided -- the presumption that because one wants something that, by golly, naturally the suppliers should be driven to provide it.

Second, I am in the midst of implementing a customer request in my own software. This request has languished for well over a month, primarily over the price the customer would be charged. They could not understand why it would cost $X. I have no doubt that they asked our salesperson, "How hard could it be?" I suppose it is natural for customers to be motivated to radically under-estimate what's involved in providing them what they want.

I would love to see this feature offered. I understand completely why it isn't.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

I guess I still don't. All we are talking about is adding channels to a lineup, something done quite frequently and handled by Tribune (if that is still the case). That does not have a large cost associated with it. As I mentioned, I think it makes good financial sense for Tivo to do it. 

My first venture on this forum years ago was a problem I was having. I lived in an apartment complex that had a deal with the local cable company to give them a custom lineup. The problem was HBO was on a public access channel for us and us only, so my Tivo guide data was always wrong. I called and was told if I could fax in a lineup, they could add it to the database. Great! Except there was no official lineup. It was suggested to me here that I might make one. So using tape, scissors and a copier I created one. It showed up within a week and I was happy happy happy. So I managed as a youth living in an apartment to do what Tivo can't do or request now? 

I see no difference between that situation and clear QAM channels that are static and on the callsigns. I'm not sure my paper and scissors will work with channel numbers like 33.1, but it sure is tempting.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

hiker said:


> I don't think adding this feature is a technical problem for TiVo. Rather it's a business problem in that they don't want to add a feature that the cable cos do not want.


Yeah, they probably shouldn't add VOD either. Ooops!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

All I can say is that what you "guess", and what you "think", and what you "see no difference between", evidently is not consistent with what the folks at TiVo "know", about what would be involved in doing as you suggest, about what would happen as a result, about how it would impact satisfaction their objectives, and about how it will affect other work they have underway. Hopefully you can accept that there are things we simply don't know about or don't care about that affect the way things are.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Ok then,
say TWC Michigan had 6 clear QAM - TiVo maps them as they are now and adds them to the lineup. People start setting up season passes and the like
2 months later 3 of the channels are moved. They account for 60% of the recordings. those recordings are now all coming up blank. Some few discuss it in this forum and understand hwat happened and ***** and work around it.

MANY more just see no recording and report it as such. A few will get that they tune that channel in and see something other than expected channel and report that.
Over some weeks Tivo figures out the problem is QAM mapping and then adjusts the guide data accrdingly.
4 months later a QAM channel is remapped again and this accounts for say 10% of all recordings. Lather rinse repeat.

all fine and dandy you may say. I can accept that hassle just to have the QAM. TiVo Inc. however ends up in the very different boat of getting a reputation for unreliable recording and that is the #1 leading cause of death for a DVR. No amount of PR and infomational videos in showcases is going to change that perception.


The fundamental question to answer in designing clear QAM mapping - is how do we make damn sure that a channel change is picked up right away and that no recordings are missed because of that QAM channel change.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And you've really hit on something there Zeo... I think a lot of folks fail to recognize the value in designing products and services so as to minimize the cost of support. Every cost-benefit analysis for new functionality must be proven to be a good idea not just with regard to sales versus development and manufacturing cost, but also with regard to sales versus development, manufacturing *and support *cost.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Yeah, they probably shouldn't add VOD either. Ooops!


TiVo VOD and cableco VOD aren't comparable since, AFAIK, cableco VOD is free to digital subs and TiVo VOD is mostly pay extra (Netflix, Unbox, etc).

Don't forget TiVo is "in bed" with Comcast (contracted to program their DVR) and problably other cablecos.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

None of us know how often cable systems change their mapping. None of us know how much resources tivo would have to allocate to provide this service.

Cable cards automatically handle channel mapping. Many cable system encrypt all channles, except broadcast channels. QAM will let a small number of potential subscribers save a few dollars a month in cc rental charges. Probably not enough customers in that category to justify the money it would cost tivo.

It's a shame tivo can't offer some kind of "back door" that will let those few customers map a handful of broadcast channels. I could see having a second tivo being used to record basic channels and then using MRV.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> None of us know how often cable systems change their mapping. None of us know how much resources tivo would have to allocate to provide this service.


Indeed, TiVo probably knows this stuff far better than we do. You're right about that.



lew said:


> Cable cards automatically handle channel mapping.


The way the TiVo program guide works is that the cable company notifies the program guide service that they're changing channel line-ups, and the program guide service provides updated information to TiVo units. That's the way TiVos are designed to operate. Anything else requires a change to the design of TiVo... see above for a discussion of that.



lew said:


> Many cable system encrypt all channles, except broadcast channels. QAM will let a small number of potential subscribers save a few dollars a month in cc rental charges. Probably not enough customers in that category to justify the money it would cost tivo.


Yes this is a very good point.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Ok then,
> 
> all fine and dandy you may say. I can accept that hassle just to have the QAM. TiVo Inc. however ends up in the very different boat of getting a reputation for unreliable recording and that is the #1 leading cause of death for a DVR. No amount of PR and infomational videos in showcases is going to change that perception.


A bit late for that.

I guess my ignorance is showing. The initial assertion was that for many these channels _aren't_ hopping anymore. They have correct PSIP data. They are mapped to the callsign. Where's the hop? The request is for clear QAM with correct PSIP data isn't it? Aren't we talking about this _because_ the hopping is gone?

Edit: Let me add that if the mapping is going to hop, I agree this makes no sense. And this doesn't hold true for every market. But for those with correct PSIP data this makes a _lot_ of sense.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Comcast offers MCARDs for $1.75-$2.50 each without a digital cable subscription.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would have Comcast without a CableCard with the cost being so low.


I agree....here, with Mediacom, they charge $1.99/month/card. Small price to pay to get program data plus all the other HD channels that come with the "basic" digital cable package (WGN, Comcast SportsNet, USA, TNT, ESPN, ESPN2, PBS, UDT, A&E, HDNET, etc.).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> Edit: Let me add that if the mapping is going to hop, I agree this makes no sense. And this doesn't hold true for every market. But for those with correct PSIP data this makes a _lot_ of sense.


Thread started with *one* Comcast (Atlanta) market finally 'agreeing' to send the data as the FCC has required for quite some time.
For TiVo as a satndalone product TiVo inc. most likely needs to see a still broader adherence to sending the data as the FCC requires. That has not been happening with the understanding I have currently.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> A bit late for that.
> .


exactly, Subscribers are already getting roughed up with Tribune on one side and OS updates Tivo does on the other. Last thing TiVo needs to do right now is a MAJOR functional change in the area of gudie data and scheduling that leaves thier long flap hanging out in the breeze on data that could be wrong after just 2 months.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

How do other products (TVs, PCs) handle this?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Thread started with *one* Comcast (Atlanta) market finally 'agreeing' to send the data as the FCC has required for quite some time.
> For TiVo as a satndalone product TiVo inc. most likely needs to see a still broader adherence to sending the data as the FCC requires. That has not been happening with the understanding I have currently.


Okay, add Brighthouse Networks in Birmingham, AL. I doubt many here even know what they are looking for and I would expect this to become more mainstream. I wasn't even looking for this, I was just doing a channel scan to find where my QAM channels had hoped too and was shocked and quite happy that the hopping may have stopped. I may be wrong, but if I'm not mapping makes sense. And again, I'm only a proponent for this in markets that have this scenario.

I think this points to the significant difference in our viewpoints and we'd probably agree with each other depending on which pans out.

Edit: heck, anyone paying attention to this thread do a channel scan and see what you get. You should be looking for channels with PSIP data at the callsigns. Unscientific but informative.


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

dig_duggler said:


> Okay, add Brighthouse Networks in Birmingham, AL. I doubt many here even know what they are looking for and I would expect this to become more mainstream. I wasn't even looking for this, I was just doing a channel scan to find where my QAM channels had hoped too and was shocked and quite happy that the hopping may have stopped. I may be wrong, but if I'm not mapping makes sense. And again, I'm only a proponent for this in markets that have this scenario.
> 
> I think this points to the significant difference in our viewpoints and we'd probably agree with each other depending on which pans out.
> 
> Edit: heck, anyone paying attention to this thread do a channel scan and see what you get. You should be looking for channels with PSIP data at the callsigns. Unscientific but informative.


Without a separate QAM tuner, how to I tell if they're sending PSIP data with only my Tivo HD?

For me, it's a case of 'it would be very nice to have'... since I'm going almost completely OTA. But since it actually costs less to keep the lowest Comcast service than it does to cut it off *if you also subscribe to their internet service*, then I'm basically going to end up with their "Limited Basic" service. $10.45 a month is cheaper than losing the $15 a month discount on the internet.

But without guide data for the QAM channels, I'm stuck with analog. And I can't get to the QAM HD channels that I believe they're required to broadcast in the clear... so that part is absolutely useless.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they way I understand it is...

1) The FCC requires cable companies to carry a limited set of channels 'in the clear'
2) The FCC requires cable companies carry PSIP data for those channels
3) Tivo *could* use the PSIP data to map which QAM channel maps to which network or OTA channel

Some or all of those pieces may not be in place everywhere, but even where they are in place, a Tivo will not use that data to associate the QAM channel to the proper guide data.

Do I have that straight?


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

hiker said:


> TiVo VOD and cableco VOD aren't comparable since, AFAIK, cableco VOD is free to digital subs and TiVo VOD is mostly pay extra (Netflix, Unbox, etc).
> 
> Don't forget TiVo is "in bed" with Comcast (contracted to program their DVR) and problably other cablecos.


I've never understood why this argument gets trotted out every once in a while. 

If TiVo has no problem offering a DVR that competes directly with the offering from the cable company, why would they care what the cable company thought about providing TiVo customers with guide data for QAMM channels that those customers *are already paying the cable company for*?

Similarly, many people here state that cable cards can be had for a couple of bucks per month. Why would a cable company pressure TiVo to not support QAMM mapping over such a small amount of revenue when they lose many times that amount when a customer chooses a TiVo DVR over a cable company DVR?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Meklos said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but they way I understand it is...
> 
> 1) The FCC requires cable companies to carry a limited set of channels 'in the clear'


Specifically, the must-carry channels. Yes.



Meklos said:


> 2) The FCC requires cable companies carry PSIP data for those channels


Not exactly: The FCC requires MSO to pass-through PSIP provided by broadcasters.



Meklos said:


> 3) Tivo *could* use the PSIP data to map which QAM channel maps to which network or OTA channel


Due to the answer to #2, TiVo cannot use the PSIP data to map to the program guide data using the same numbers as the cable company uses, but they could use the PSIP data to map to the program guide data using the same numbers as OTA would use. That would, of course, only work for the OTA broadcast channels carried by cable.



Meklos said:


> Some or all of those pieces may not be in place everywhere, but even where they are in place, a Tivo will not use that data to associate the QAM channel to the proper guide data.


It isn't designed for that, no.



Meklos said:


> Do I have that straight?


Hopefully you do now.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I know there was an issue with FiOS not properly including PSIP data.

My guess is there aren't that many customers who are using a S3 tivo with cable but aren't using cc. It's probably not worth the cost of supporting QAM mapping when such a system only works with some systems, part of the time.

The only thing this would do would be allow an unknown number of customers save a few dollars a month with cc rental fees. Some customers with a S3 wanted to rent one cable card and be able to use the second tuner for clear QAM stations. This feature would be more valuable if cable systems weren't encrypted the majority of digital channels.



dig_duggler said:


> A bit late for that.
> 
> I guess my ignorance is showing. The initial assertion was that for many these channels _aren't_ hopping anymore. They have correct PSIP data. They are mapped to the callsign. Where's the hop? The request is for clear QAM with correct PSIP data isn't it? Aren't we talking about this _because_ the hopping is gone?
> 
> Edit: Let me add that if the mapping is going to hop, I agree this makes no sense. And this doesn't hold true for every market. But for those with correct PSIP data this makes a _lot_ of sense.


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

bicker said:


> Specifically, the must-carry channels. Yes.
> 
> Not exactly: The FCC requires MSO to pass-through PSIP provided by broadcasters.
> 
> ...


If the channel is carried in the clear, and if the PSIP data is provided by the broadcaster, and if the MSO carries/forwards the PSIP data... yes, even if we're only talking about OTA channels... I'm still missing why the Tivo is incapable of this?

We're talking about associating guide data to a channel/frequency location.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Who said anything about "incapable"? 

There is enough controversy in this topic without you derailing the thread with irrelevancies.

Perhaps you want to reword your message?


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

bicker said:


> Who said anything about "incapable"?
> 
> There is enough controversy in this topic without you derailing the thread with irrelevancies.
> 
> Perhaps you want to reword your message?


No, I used the word I intended to. You said that it wasn't designed to do it, and I can't find a menu to enable the feature.

I can post the definition of the word 'incapable' if you want, but I don't see the need for a flame war here, and I have no idea why you're appearing so defensive on the issue. I (and others, apparently) simply believe that if there is PSIP data there that it should be displayed, and that if the PSIP data can associate that QAM identifier (channel-subchannel) to a known set of guide data already onhand - that it should be.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Saxion said:


> Reasons to _not want _CableCARDs:
> 
> In most markets, have to pay for a truck roll to install them
> In most markets, have to pay monthly to rent them
> ...


I agree 100%


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

JJ said:


> *This weekend*
> Comcast Atlanta (Stone Mountain headend) finally restored the PSIP data for the big four networks they have removed since January 2008. I was shocked that this happened 'by the end of 2008' just as they had promised. Vista Media Center (SP1 and TV Pack 2008) immediately detected this data and reconfigured itself changing carrier frequency identities to the PSIP value.
> 
> Vista process was completely painless and needed no direct user input, just the way I would have expected TiVoHD to react.
> ...


I don't agree with you, that your local cable company is properly mappnig the channels.

IF you had cable cards, the channels wouldn't be "2-1", it would be something like 672.

IF they mapped it to 672 WITHOUT cablecards, TiVo might be able to use the cable lignup.

"2-1" is not a valid cable channel.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> Because no one in their right mind will spend time and money to duplicate functionality that already exists with cable cards. QAM adds zero value to your average cable customer who wants digital channels - especially now that more systems are going 100% digital.
> 
> Eventually everyone will have to have cable cards, a digital box or a DTA to see even basic channels. And the whole argument becomes moot.


I really about the CableLabs or TwoWay's control. Wh not just to the same thing for analog cable and do that for digital. Plug it in and it's simple. If people want HBO, PayPerView then they get a seporate cable box. Why make everyone feel the PAIN.

We the US public can't even buy a HDTV from a local store and just connect a cable to the back and click on known channel for HDTV, dude we have to do a scan (which is no big deal) but then you have clear QAM for a local channel on like 185-2 which is like channel 4-1. What gives. At least with in a given metropolition area analog Cable channel 4 is 4.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I don't agree with you, that your local cable company is properly mappnig the channels.
> 
> IF you had cable cards, the channels wouldn't be "2-1", it would be something like 672.
> 
> ...


For most cable systems there is only 125 channels for the cable system to use. Each of these 125 channels can be split up if an analog signal is not on the channels, IE ch 89 can be 89-1 mapping to 672, 89-4 mapped to 234 etc. without cable card(s) TiVo can't go above ch 125. The TiVo without cable cards can tune 89-1 if the channel is not encrypted.
Each cable system can change the mapping at will so you will never know when 89-1 goes to 75-6 and 75-6 is now mapped to 672.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

lessd said:


> without cable card(s) TiVo can't go above ch 125. The TiVo without cable cards can tune 89-1 if the channel is not encrypted.


I'm a HD noob, but I beg to differ with the above statement. My Tivo HD has zero cable cards and I've been browsing 002-999 all day looking for HD channels.

Still can't figure out why all of my channels are SD when some of them are definitely HD on my son's cablecard-less TV...


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> I'm a HD noob, but I beg to differ with the above statement. My Tivo HD has zero cable cards and I've been browsing 002-999 all day looking for HD channels.
> 
> Still can't figure out why all of my channels are SD when some of them are definitely HD on my son's cablecard-less TV...


If your Tivo HD doesn't pick up the QAM channels during the scan (like mine didn't) then do what I did. I manually tuned to every channel between about 75 and 135 or so. Then I went into the configuration of my channels, and suddenly there's entries for 82-1, 82-3, 101-1, 101-2, 101-4, etc etc...

I clicked the check mark beside each of those and went through them all. Then I went back and deselected the ones that must have been encrypted (cause I got a grey screen).

I can manually tune to them but I have no guide data. I have no idea if there's PSIP data because my TV doesn't have a QAM tuner... but it doesn't matter because the Tivo doesn't currently do anything with that PSIP data at all.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> "2-1" is not a valid cable channel.


But it's a valid OTA channel, which there is guide data for.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Meklos said:


> Without a separate QAM tuner, how to I tell if they're sending PSIP data with only my Tivo HD?


I _think_ it's fairly easy. If the channel name is meaningful ('WSB HD') vs '????' you are getting PSIP data.

Edit: It should be a cbl channel too, not ant (from the Channels You Receive Menu)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Meklos said:


> No, I used the word I intended to. You said that it wasn't designed to do it, and I can't find a menu to enable the feature.


Simple logic: If it wasn't *designed *to do it, then you won't find a menu option to enable the feature. However, just because it wasn't *designed* to do it, doesn't mean that it is incapable of doing so. The word "incapable" has a very specific connotation, which is simply not the case, here. With respect, I think you deliberately used that word to make your concern sound more important than it is.



Meklos said:


> I have no idea why you're appearing so defensive on the issue.


As you know, I have nothing to be defensive about. I don't own the company or work there. Rather, I simply don't appreciate lame attempts to distort reality.



Meklos said:


> I (and others, apparently) simply believe that if there is PSIP data there that it should be displayed, and that if the PSIP data can associate that QAM identifier (channel-subchannel) to a known set of guide data already onhand - that it should be.


You mean, like a religious issue? What "should" be is what is *promised*. Trying to present your desire as something that "should" be is without foundation or merit.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

Like I said, I'm an HD noob (but RTFMing as quickly as I can) so perhaps someone can explain my situation (or point me to a FAQ) so I can understand the terminology/technology a little better.

- I have an HD XL, digital cable, no OTA antenna.
- I get channels 002-999 with meaningful names, but they are slightly off for chan > 100.
- I have Tivo guide data for these channels.
- I do not see any OTA channel ID's (i.e. 87-1, 13-2)
- No channels are in HD, Tivo content (menus, demos) are in HD.

- My son has a HD TV with no CC or external box.
- He has the same digital cable and no OTA antenna.
- He gets SD and HD content.
- His channels are OTA channel ID's (i.e. 87-1, 13-2)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pldoolittle said:


> - I get channels 002-999 with meaningful names, but they are slightly off for chan > 100.


This indicated that you probably chose the wrong system when you did the guided setup. You need to re-do guided setup, and make sure you choose the system for your town that is exactly the same as your cable system listing.

There is a small chance that the Tribune program guide listings are inaccurate. What is your Zip Code, cable company, and what are the errors you're seeing. We can check for you on Zap2It.com.



pldoolittle said:


> - I do not see any OTA channel ID's (i.e. 87-1, 13-2)


And you shouldn't.



pldoolittle said:


> - No channels are in HD, Tivo content (menus, demos) are in HD.


This could be a matter of what you're authorized for. Again, with Zip Code and some information about what cable company you have, we can help further.



pldoolittle said:


> - My son has a HD TV with no CC or external box.
> - He has the same digital cable and no OTA antenna.
> - He gets SD and HD content.
> - His channels are OTA channel ID's (i.e. 87-1, 13-2)


Yup, that makes sense. He's getting in-the-clear QAM.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I don't think the widespread deployment of SDV was anticipated when the S3 units were designed. I suspect some of the resources that could have been used to map QAM channels were used to program for, and test, SDV dongles.

I suspect some of the resources that could have been used for QAM mapping was used to "tweak" the programs to improve transfer speeds with TivoHD units. Other resources were used to handle programs that have greater potential to generate revenue or attract new customers. I'm thinking of Amazon downloads and Netflix.

I suspect some of the resources are now being used for the new HD Directv box and a possible S4 box.

The question isn't IF TIVO could do it, if I'm reading Bicker's posts correctly he agrees it could (probably) be done. The question is if the number of customers (and potential customers) that want this feature justifies the programming and support resources that would be required.

How would tivo handle the support calls, and complaints, if a system stops providing the PSIP data? Sounds like systems like Comcast and FiOS have had issues with PSIP data.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed. I figure that tru2way, and better VOD support, are far higher priorities, these days.


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

bicker said:


> This indicated that you probably chose the wrong system when you did the guided setup. You need to re-do guided setup, and make sure you choose the system for your town that is exactly the same as your cable system listing.


That was my thought, but... For 30215 there is only one choice for ComCast. IIRC, that was also the case when I set up our S2's. Nevertheless, I will re-do guided and confirm.



bicker said:


> There is a small chance that the Tribune program guide listings are inaccurate. What is your Zip Code, cable company, and what are the errors you're seeing. We can check for you on Zap2It.com.


Thx. 30215, Comcast. As for errors, unless it has changed since I watched it, 847 is not FoodNetwork HD (it's an "adult" channel). Another was supposed to be CNN (iirc) and was spanish language soap operas.



bicker said:


> And you shouldn't.


Help me understand. I get that 13-2 is OTA coding. And 687 is cable channels. But where does QAM and PSIP fit in.



bicker said:


> This could be a matter of what you're authorized for. Again, with Zip Code and some information about what cable company you have, we can help further.


Perhaps. But I'm talking about stuff like NBCD-HD (local channels) and they are available on his tv with no auth, no decode, etc...



bicker said:


> Yup, that makes sense. He's getting in-the-clear QAM.


For what I have read so far QAM is just mapping/guide data (again, help me understand where I am amiss). But we both are getting the same signals down the wire, so why can't I tune to a HD channel that he gets?


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Locally*
Comcast will not supply cable cards without purchase of a 'digital tier' package. This appears to be carved in stone after multiple calls to Comcast customer service. So, cable cards are not an option that is available me. Paying extra for somehing completely unnecessary goes gainst my better judgement. If you don't mind paying extra for something that provides no value to you, my truck could use a fill-up.

2.1 (or 2-1) is the PSIP data in the stream resolving the broadcast channel identity from whatever frequency it is on a cabe system. Cable boxes will resolve the channel frequency to whatever number the cable operator wants it to be. IF this PSIP data was 'invalid' why would TiVo have 2.1 cbl in thier database? Why TiVo (or Tribune) has decided to use these unusual station identities is beyond me when they have effectively and correctly mapped the broadcast equivalents.

TiVo definately maps the RF broadcast channel (apparently in the database) for over the air based on my PBS issue in the original post. PSIP showing up as part of a scan for channels demonstrates the the TiVo software is at the very least 'aware' of PSIP mapping and has station names entered in thier database.

As an outsider it appears that adding program data to these station identities or changing them to equal the broadcast channel programming would not be something that would bankrupt TiVo. This is far more akin to correcting lineup data. Comcast or other cable providers could move the frequency all they wanted as long as the PSIP data remained TiVo would need to make no adjustments. Probably less expensive for TiVo in the long run.

*Burning question is this; Does TiVo care more about you (the loyal customer), or Comcast? I think we may now know the answer...*

I first stepped up in 1999 with a HDR110 and lifetime service when it was unclear that TiVo, Inc. would even last through 2000. I took a chance when TiVo was fresh, nimble and customer focused company. They truly believed in 'TV your way' but now it seems to be 'TV the TiVo way, take it or leave it'...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JJ said:


> Comcast or other cable providers could move the frequency all they wanted *as long as the PSIP data remained *TiVo would need to make no adjustments. Probably less expensive for TiVo in the long run.


actually the burning question seems to be the one I quoted above in bold, along with that is - is the PSIP data correct and in proper format?

So TiVo allows us to move an file off our PC and onto the TiVo. We can pull off shows to the PC as well. TiVo competes directly with VOD/PPV with Amazon and Netflix.
TiVo is the main instigator of Cable Card headaches for cable companies.

hmm, not much of a colluding partner. Maybe Comcast execs should post in here and ***** about all the crud that TiVo pulls on them


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> . My *Tivo HD has zero cable cards*





bicker said:


> This indicated that you probably chose the wrong system when you did the guided setup. .





pldoolittle said:


> That was my thought, but... For 30215 there is only one choice for ComCast. IIRC, that was also the case when I set up our S2's. Nevertheless, I will re-do guided and confirm.
> 
> Thx. 30215, Comcast. As for errors, unless it has changed since I watched it, 847 is not FoodNetwork HD (it's an "adult" channel). ......
> For what I have read so far QAM is just mapping/guide data (again, help me understand where I am amiss). But we both are getting the same signals down the wire, so why can't I tune to a HD channel that he gets?


http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport...n_HD_TiVo_DVR_Series3_TiVo_HD_TiVo_HD_XL.html

Tivo S3 units will work with *analog cable channels.* In order to tune (really map and get useable guide data) digital channels (digital SD and any HD channel) you need at least one cable card. Your tivo is designed to use a cable card to tune digital channels.

Some people seem to be able to get some clear QAM channels but there is no guarnatee you'll be able to get it to work without get a cc.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pldoolittle said:


> That was my thought, but... For 30215 there is only one choice for ComCast. IIRC, that was also the case when I set up our S2's. Nevertheless, I will re-do guided and confirm.


Indeed, and if it is only a couple of channels off, it could just be that those errors need to be fixed, using the channel lineup correction process that TiVo supports.



pldoolittle said:


> Help me understand. I get that 13-2 is OTA coding. And 687 is cable channels. But where does QAM and PSIP fit in.


If you have CableCARD(s), PSIP is not used. Instead, the CableCARD provides a mapping between the cable channel (687) and the QAM channel (82-2, perhaps) that that cable channel is physically riding on. The OTA channel (13-2) is not applicable at all (with CableCARD(s)).



pldoolittle said:


> Perhaps. But I'm talking about stuff like NBCD-HD (local channels) and they are available on his tv with no auth, no decode, etc...


That doesn't really matter (and actually is the foundation of a different challenge for cable companies, i.e., cable theft for folks who subscribe just to limited basic cable, but have QAM tuners, but that's another thread). With CableCARD(s), the TiVo will provide you just what the cable company tells it to provide you.

You probably could spend some time complaining to Comcast, and get them to change what they tell the CableCARD, so you can receive NBC-HD. However, you may be in an area where even the local broadcast HDs are only available on an HD tier. (That should become illegal in February, once the broadcasters themselves designate their HD signals as the signals that the cable companies "must carry" instead of their SD signals, which is what most have designated at this time.)



pldoolittle said:


> For what I have read so far QAM is just mapping/guide data


No, QAM is the modulation used for cable signals. It is basically the only bit of jargon we're using that _doesn't _refer to channel mapping  (i.e., both PSIP and CableCARD(s) have something to do with channel mapping).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JJ said:


> Paying extra for somehing completely unnecessary goes gainst my better judgement.


Since CableCARD(s) is necessary to map TiVo program guide channels, they're not "unnecessary" for folks who want to utilize all of TiVo's capabilities.

Note that you can subscribe to the digital package, get the CableCARD(s), and then pursue what options they'll offer you to downgrade back to non-digital service.



JJ said:


> Burning question is this; Does TiVo care more about you (the loyal customer), or Comcast?


What makes you an especially "loyal" customer? Remember that, for a business, loyalty means being willing to pay a premium (more than other people) for something. Not just that you're willing to pay what they're charging. Customers willing to pay the posted price are called "customers".


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bicker said:


> Note that you can subscribe to the digital package, get the CableCARD(s), and then pursue what options they'll offer you to downgrade back to non-digital service.


With Charter, you never even have to order the digital package with cablecards. You can order any tier you want at any time without paying for the "digital" tier (which is mostly crap channels). So I get the sports, premium, and HD teir without paying for "digital". If I had a cable box from them, I don't think that is even possible.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

bicker said:


> You mean, like a religious issue? What "should" be is what is *promised*. Trying to present your desire as something that "should" be is without foundation or merit.


Man you really don't seem to understand comsumerism and capitolism. I personally think that the end user has a better idea about what they want than the company making a product. This thread (and others) is full of said end users saying they want this functionality. Just because Tivo decides that this is not something they offer does not give you Carte Blanche to go around chastising those who would question Tivo's decision.

A truely functional buisness should take the ideas of the consumers and incorporate them into the product if it is at all economically feasible. While I agree that it may not be as easy as we make it out to be it cannot be that bad. As for support costs for this functionality, it would be no different than the current QAM support. Tivo does have a QAM tuner in their equiptment and users can use this to view the clear-QAM channels. I am sure that Tivo gets support calls asking why there is no guide data on these channels (assuming the user can figure out how to do a channel scan and add the QAM channels to their lineup). Tivo's response is that they do not officially support QAM. That would also be their response if it has this mapping functionality.

All that is being asked for here is a mehtod for the end user to have a little more say in how the UI works. Tivo would not need to devote massive support to this feature, just make it available.

/rant


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

lew said:


> Tivo S3 units will work with *analog cable channels.* In order to tune (really map and get useable guide data) digital channels (digital SD and any HD channel) you need at least one cable card.


Long time, no see! iirc, you and I started here together several years back on the "dark tivo" thread, right?

Anyway, based on my admittedly abridged knowledge I'm not sure that I agree with your above statement. Aren't all QAM channels and or channels above 125 (such as 800) digital channels? If so, then I'm getting digital channels on my non-ccard Tivo, just not their high def equivalents.



bicker said:


> pldoolittle said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps. But I'm talking about stuff like NBCD-HD (local channels) and they are available on his tv with no auth, no decode, etc...
> ...


I think you missed what I was asking. It wasn't about NBC (or any channel) specifically, I just used NBC making the assumption that it was a non-subscription HD channel. The real question was why does his TV get a given HD channel w/o a cable card/box/etc and my Tivo HD doesn't. That's really the crux of my whole thread. Not how can I make my Tivo get HD channels, but rather why it doesn't get them when much cheaper/simpler devices seem to have no problem.



bicker said:


> cable theft for folks who subscribe just to limited basic cable, but have QAM tuners, but that's another thread


So can I take it from this that his little TV has a QAM tuner and my Tivo has none? If so, I am confused. Based on my observations (and all the threads about QAM/PSIP) it certainly seems that Tivo does have a QAM tuner. And if it does and I'm getting the cable channels HD content is mapped to, why are they in 480i/SD?

Philip

P.S. Thanks for all your guys input and if it's seems I'm being argumentative, I apologize. I'm just trying to learn and as a part of that I'm questioning everything I can't reconcile based on my limited understanding.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Adam1115 said:


> I don't agree with you, that your local cable company is properly mappnig the channels.
> 
> IF you had cable cards, the channels wouldn't be "2-1", it would be something like 672.
> 
> ...


It's not true for all of Comcast in the ATL anyway - the OP is on the Stone Mtn. headend, but the one I'm on (the Vinings headend) is still missing the mapping for a few of the local channels.

I think the bottom line with QAM mapping on the Tivo is that it's not a feature decision, it's a support call decision. Since the cableCo's either don't properly pass PSIP or don't get it from the provider (and probably don't care either way because they don't want you to know about clear QAM), we have a constant game of 'find the missing QAM channel' when they add or delete channels. Coupled with the FCC's utter lack of concern for valid PSIP data being passed, you can see why Tivo is reluctant to take on the brunt of the support for this.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

Have you done a manual channel scan yet? It sounds like when you ran guided setup you told the Tivo you get digital channels. You do not if you have no cableCARDs. You need to first rerun GS and confirm with the Tivo what channels you actually receive. The channel map it is providing is for the digital service available with a cableCARD. If the Tivo has no cableCARD you should not (and can not apparently) be able to tune above 125. 

Once you have completed GS and have the analogs coming in you need to go to Tivo menu -> Settings -> channels -> run channel scan (I may not have the menu path perfect). Once this is complete the Tivo will state it has found a bunch of new channels. You will then need to go into your channel list and add the channels that come in the clear to the channels you recieve list by selecting the check box. The QAM channels will appear as "dashed" channels (i.e. 4-1, 7-1, etc...). Then you will have the digital channels that are broadcast in the clear in your guide (but no guide data).


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's not true for all of Comcast in the ATL anyway - the OP is on the Stone Mtn. headend, but the one I'm on (the Vinings headend) is still missing the mapping for a few of the local channels.
> 
> I think the bottom line with QAM mapping on the Tivo is that it's not a feature decision, it's a support call decision. Since the cableCo's either don't properly pass PSIP or don't get it from the provider (and probably don't care either way because they don't want you to know about clear QAM), we have a constant game of 'find the missing QAM channel' when they add or delete channels. Coupled with the FCC's utter lack of concern for valid PSIP data being passed, you can see why Tivo is reluctant to take on the brunt of the support for this.


There have been other features in the life of Tivo that haven't been 'supported' but have existed.... I wish they would make this one of them, even if they make you enter some sort of unlock code and a big red "UNSUPPORTED - DON'T CALL US WE WON'T CALL YOU" warning screen.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

pldoolittle said:


> I think you missed what I was asking. It wasn't about NBC (or any channel) specifically, I just used NBC making the assumption that it was a non-subscription HD channel. The real question was why does his TV get a given HD channel w/o a cable card/box/etc and my Tivo HD doesn't. That's really the crux of my whole thread. Not how can I make my Tivo get HD channels, but rather why it doesn't get them when much cheaper/simpler devices seem to have no problem.


Assuming you are on the same provider (which I believe you stated you were) you should get any channel he picks up. I'm also assuming he doesn't have an antenna, that wasn't clear to me.

You will need to do a channel scan from settings-> channels. It's going to find an incredible number of channels. Most of these are encrypted and useless. If you know what channel your son is receiving, say NBC on, it should be on the same channel on the Tivo HD. Say it is 88-1. After you do your channel scan I would NOT add the new channels. But if you scroll through them you should see 88-1 in the list. It will probably have a channel name of something like ?????. Check it as a channel you receive, go to Live TV and browse that channel. You should see what your son is seeing, although no guide data will show up (a bunch of 'To Be Announced')

If PSIP data was sent, this wouldn't have a channel name of ?????, but something meaningful like WBHM - HD (where WBHM is a station name).

Some here are requesting that if there is PSIP data, it would be great if some guide data could be provided for it. For instance my ABC channel OTA is 33.1 which gets guide data. My provider recently began sending PSIP data for this channel, so it shows up as 33.1, as an ABC channel but without any guide data (Tivo would have to add this, or Tribune who I think does the channel information would). I have two 33.1 channels. One has guide data (my OTA channel) and one does not (my QAM channel with PSIP data). My OTA signal is a bit flaky, so if I could get guide data I could schedule season passes, etc. Right now I use it as a back up for live events in case of bad weather.

It seems the passing of this PSIP data is a recent development (in the past my in the clear QAM channels would jump around and I'd have to go looking for them, and always had a channel name of ?????), thus the renewed request for QAM mapping. Some don't want to pay for cable cards and incur a cost for something that already get (but without guide data), some (like myself) have had extreme difficulty with getting their cable cards to work properly with their cable company and have given up on that route. One of the complaints for providing QAM guide data for channels with PSIP data is if the channel up and moves from 33.1, Tivo would be overwhelmed with support calls for something out of their control. Another is that resources shouldn't be used on this that would benefit so few and provide no revenue (although I disagree with that assertion, both from a resource and benefit perspective). While I think that once PSIP data is transferred and the channel appears to be set at the callsign location it's probably there to stay, there is no way to guarantee this currently.

I'm still learning and maybe I oversimplified things, but I think that's the gist of this thread.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

bicker said:


> Since CableCARD(s) is necessary to map TiVo program guide channels, they're not "unnecessary" for folks who want to utilize all of TiVo's capabilities.


*So,*
exactly how would TiVo adding support for PSIP/QAM channels diminish your TiVo experience? I'm guessing that you 'got yours' and now anything TiVo could develop that you don't want or need is frivilous. You are welcome to keep your cable cards if you like, but why force others to have them?

TiVoHD package says:
- Cable TV or Antenna Connection (Does not support satellite)
- CableCARDtm decoders* (from a cable company) may be required to recieve digital cable channels.
* Customers may need 2 CableCARDtm decoders for dual tuner functionality

Note that in the bullet point on the package it says that I may require CableCARDs but using CableCARD(s) it is not specified as an actual requirement for receiving digital channels. This is the same sort of vague language that created a loophole that gave early TiVo adopters (like me) the ability to transfer lifetime service to a new box. In my case I am getting the digital channels I actually want 'in the clear' without the need for CableCARD, but I also want TiVo program lineup support...

I don't need (or want) every possible TiVo capability, nor does everyone else. Features like MRV are useless when you have an AV distribution system feeding the house already. TiVo to Go is kind of unnecessary (for me) with SlingHD installed. We all use the features that make a difference in our lives. You may be a special case and able to make use of all those features, and I salute you for that...


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

I was going to suggest someone call and try to get a channel with PSIP info added just to see what would happen (I imagine it's not going to work), but seems the link is dead.

Anyone know a number to call?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

pldoolittle said:


> Like I said, I'm an HD noob (but RTFMing as quickly as I can) so perhaps someone can explain my situation (or point me to a FAQ) so I can understand the terminology/technology a little better.
> 
> - I have an HD XL, digital cable, no OTA antenna.
> - I get channels 002-999 with meaningful names, but they are slightly off for chan > 100.
> ...


Without cable cards you see ch above 125 ?? Check your cable card slots as you must have a cable card of some type. The TiVo will, without cable cards, tune up to ch 9999 but from 125 on you should see nothing but a blank screen. I don't mean to call IE say ch 67-1 as 671.


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## danm628 (May 14, 2002)

bicker said:


> Since CableCARD(s) is necessary to map TiVo program guide channels, they're not "unnecessary" for folks who want to utilize all of TiVo's capabilities.
> 
> Note that you can subscribe to the digital package, get the CableCARD(s), and then pursue what options they'll offer you to downgrade back to non-digital service.


I've avoided getting cable cards for the last couple of years. Partly because I was traveling 40+ weeks a year -- not a lot of time to watch TV when home. Mostly it's because I don't want to deal with the large cost increase.

As others have pointed out I need a digital tier service from Comcast in order to get a cable card. Right now I have free service because the apartment complex pays for it (more accurately - it is part of the rent but at a discounted rate and not removable from the rent if I deal directly with Comcast). When I talk to Comcast I'm told I need one of the digital packages ($60+/month with CC fees). So in order to get the exact same service I currently have plus have the cable cards so my S3 can locate the digital channels I pay at least $60 a month. I last talked to Comcast about this about 6 months ago, this was the best option they gave me. In January I'll check again, maybe they have changed things.

If I was already paying directly for cable this wouldn't be an issue at all. But since I get "free" service the cost for the cable cards is unreasonable. At some point I'll give in and pay $60/month for something I already get for free. Or I'll move, hopefully to someplace with FIOS.

Or maybe TiVo will have lots of spare developer time to support QAM mapping. But I'm not sure I would want them to put this on the top of their engineering to-do list. It would be nice though.

- Dan


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Some of you seem to be unable to put themselves into other peoples shoes. You have lost touch with what it means to be a normal consumer. 

We are not asking for this feature so we can save a few bucks. In fact I ALREADY HAVE CABLE CARDS and I will continue to have them because I use premium channels. 

The reason many of us ask for this feature is the significant loss of sales we (the resident tech adviser for large groups of people) see every day based primarily on this problem. Tivo would significantly improve it chance to be installed in Joe Schmoe's home if there weren't so many additional fees associated with receiving a channel they already get.

Joe doesn't care about QAM PSIP encryption OTA or other gobbly ****. He can't agree with paying 15$ or more extra per month for something he can already see with any other device (including the overall less expensive cable company DVR!!!)

If you disagree with me then you want Tivo to fail


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Zimm said:


> Man you really don't seem to understand comsumerism and capitolism.


First, I think you'll find that I am almost always 100% spot-on with regard to issues regarding the consumer marketplace. Second, the word is capit*a*lism. Your perspectives are blinded by your consumer bias.



Zimm said:


> This thread (and others) is full of said end users saying they want this functionality. Just because Tivo decides that this is not something they offer does not give you Carte Blanche to go around chastising those who would question Tivo's decision.


Uh, are you smoking something? Let me turn it around on you: Just because you want something "does not give you Carte Blanche to go around chastising suppliers who don't give you what you want". Ridiculous. I understand why it frustrates you -- because it is just a bit too real for you. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't read it.



Zimm said:


> A truely functional buisness should take the ideas of the consumers and incorporate them into the product if it is at all economically feasible.


There is absolutely nothing presented in this thread that proves that TiVo hasn't and/or doesn't. Would you like to try _another _angle?



Zimm said:


> While I agree that it may not be as easy as we make it out to be it cannot be that bad.


Folks keep saying that, but such self-serving rhetoric holds no water. Post TiVo's development budgets and revenue projections, then I'll consider believing what you're trying to assert, here.



Zimm said:


> As for support costs for this functionality, it would be no different than the current QAM support.


Incorrect. It would be different. I understand you'd like it to no different. However it is.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Decded to*
play a little more cusomer service roulette and spoke to 'Don' at TiVo support, he carefully listened and noted my dilemma and filed reports with two groups (TiVo and Tribune?). Hopefully case number 10409849 will get some action.

Previously TiVo representitives held the company line and took absolutely no initiative. I'm hopeful, but previous lineup dramas mean I won't be holding my breath...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

pldoolittle said:


> The real question was why does his TV get a given HD channel w/o a cable card/box/etc and my Tivo HD doesn't.


Yes, as I mentioned in my earlier message, "With CableCARD(s), the TiVo will provide you just what the cable company tells it to provide you." I hope that clears it up for you.



pldoolittle said:


> So can I take it from this that his little TV has a QAM tuner and my Tivo has none?


Uh, no. What made you think _that_? The TiVo has two QAM tuners.



pldoolittle said:


> And if it does and I'm getting the cable channels HD content is mapped to, why are they in 480i/SD?


You're probably getting ADS channels. And you're probably not authorized for the HD channels, through your CableCARD(s).



pldoolittle said:


> P.S. Thanks for all your guys input and if it's seems I'm being argumentative, I apologize. I'm just trying to learn and as a part of that I'm questioning everything I can't reconcile based on my limited understanding.


And I'm sure that folks projecting their personal desires as what should be provided doesn't help you understand what you actually will encounter.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JJ said:


> *So,* exactly how would TiVo adding support for PSIP/QAM channels diminish your TiVo experience? I'm guessing that you 'got yours' and now anything TiVo could develop that you don't want or need is frivilous. You are welcome to keep your cable cards if you like, but why force others to have them?


Who has said that adding this support would diminish anyone's experience? *It is pretty juvenile to ignore what I'm writing and instead argue against something easier to argue against.* Try to put your personal desires in their proper perspective.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ciper said:


> The reason many of us ask for this feature is the significant loss of sales we (the resident tech adviser for large groups of people) see every day based primarily on this problem.


So you'll be posting your market research... when?


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

bicker said:


> Who has said that adding this support would diminish anyone's experience? *It is pretty juvenile to ignore what I'm writing and instead argue against something easier to argue against.* Try to put your personal desires in their proper perspective.


*Again*
you miss the point that CableCARD is not necessary in everyones situation. The TiVoHD box even says so...


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

bicker said:


> So you'll be posting your market research... when?


I just did. My market research happens to be the large number of people who come to me for advice. It is my job to fix their infrastructure so they assume I also know about anything related to technology or machinery. Everyone wants an HDTV and after I answer those questions the next topic is nearly always "what type of DVR." My exposure directly to the consumer is far more valuable than a random survey of existing Tivo users or professional focus groups. The only flaw with the data is that it's geographically contained to a single state.

Just think of me as a personal shopper to those who don't have the time to research these decisions on their own.

I would like you to try and show me how adding this feature would cause Tivo to have less customers overall. Even if the cable company decides to move channels around once a week and the customers get confused it would be very easy for a technical support person to convince them that the cable company is at fault. In fact I'd argue that most people would call either the cable company first (since the Tivo still works on other channels) or their resident nerd before contacting Tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> It seems the passing of this PSIP data is a recent development (in the past my in the clear QAM channels would jump around and I'd have to go looking for them, and always had a channel name of ?????), thus the renewed request for QAM mapping. Some don't want to pay for cable cards and incur a cost for something that already get (but without guide data), some (like myself) have had extreme difficulty with getting their cable cards to work properly with their cable company and have given up on that route. One of the complaints for providing QAM guide data for channels with PSIP data is if the channel up and moves from 33.1, Tivo would be overwhelmed with support calls for something out of their control. Another is that resources shouldn't be used on this that would benefit so few and provide no revenue (although I disagree with that assertion, both from a resource and benefit perspective). While I think that once PSIP data is transferred and the channel appears to be set at the callsign location it's probably there to stay, there is no way to guarantee this currently.
> 
> I'm still learning and maybe I oversimplified things, but I think that's the gist of this thread.


Now I think we are on the same page, though I would state TiVo has significant risk in that if guide data is provided and people use it to schedule shows, then the channel moves then people see that as an unreliable Tivo DVR versus a QAM mapping issue. Being branded unreliable is very costly so the risk is correspondingly significant.


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## Zimm (Apr 8, 2008)

bicker said:


> First, I think you'll find that I am almost always 100% spot-on with regard to issues regarding the consumer marketplace. Second, the word is capit*a*lism. Your perspectives are blinded by your consumer bias.
> 
> Uh, are you smoking something? Let me turn it around on you: Just because you want something "does not give you Carte Blanche to go around chastising suppliers who don't give you what you want". Ridiculous. I understand why it frustrates you -- because it is just a bit too real for you. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't read it.
> 
> ...


I'll just say this, your user name certainly fits.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I really about the CableLabs or TwoWay's control. Wh not just to the same thing for analog cable and do that for digital. Plug it in and it's simple. If people want HBO, PayPerView then they get a seporate cable box. Why make everyone feel the PAIN.
> 
> We the US public can't even buy a HDTV from a local store and just connect a cable to the back and click on known channel for HDTV, dude we have to do a scan (which is no big deal) but then you have clear QAM for a local channel on like 185-2 which is like channel 4-1. What gives. At least with in a given metropolition area analog Cable channel 4 is 4.


In my area with Comcast and FIOS I can plug the cable in to the TV and all the local channels are mapped as if receiving them from an OTA channel(ie. 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, etc.). I recently had Comcast for 6 months and the TV always showed the proper channels. I've had FIOS since Summer 2007 and have had no problem with the TV tuner showing the local channels. I only periodically look at them since I use the TiVo to watch TV, but everytime I check the channels on the TV, they are where they should be as if I was using an antenna. My antenna is only connected to my TiVos.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

JJ said:


> *Again*
> you miss the point that CableCARD is not necessary in everyones situation. The TiVoHD box even says so...


Again, I haven't missed anything. CableCARD is necessary in many situations. If you are complaining that the TiVo doesn't map cable channels to the program guide if you don't have CableCARD, then that is because the CableCARD *is* necessary in your situation.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ciper said:


> I just did. My market research happens to be the large number of people who come to me for advice.


Oh wow. So you consider your own personal interactions fully representative of the entire marketplace. You think an awful lot of yourself. 

Market research involves a representative sampling of the market.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Zimm said:


> I'll just say this, your user name certainly fits.


And your's doesn't?


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> In my area with Comcast and FIOS I can plug the cable in to the TV and all the local channels are mapped as if receiving them from an OTA channel(ie. 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, etc.). I recently had Comcast for 6 months and the TV always showed the proper channels. I've had FIOS since Summer 2007 and have had no problem with the TV tuner showing the local channels. I only periodically look at them since I use the TiVo to watch TV, but everytime I check the channels on the TV, they are where they should be as if I was using an antenna. My antenna is only connected to my TiVos.


I don't think it's all the cable co.'s fault for mismapping channels. We have three TV's with digital tuners. The two Samsung TV's can take the QAM and map them to the correct channels, as can my TiVo HD without cards. The third TV maps the channels in weird locations, like 185-2, etc. I suspect it's a question of whether the device can read and interpret PSIP data.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

The non-supported way I'd like to see this implemented would be to allow users to surf to a special web page on the Tivo that would show all the channels picked up on a channel scan. Then let me enter a re-map channel for any that need it. I would understand that these re-maps are *MY* responsibility and that if they change unexpectedly, I'm out of luck so far as missing recordings. Because the interface would not be shown thru the Tivo on the TV, only "advanced" users would even know it's there. Support would come through Tivo fan sites only. That would be how I would propose to improve this situation.


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## psuJC (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, i'm having a heck of a time getting my cable company to get the cable cards working. they're blaming tivo, tivo's blaming them. I hate this tivo now... simply because of this. I want to watch TV, not sit on the phone for a grand total of 10 hours now, and 4 appoitments.

You want market data? This tivo's going back to the store. If I could get guide data for the QAM channels it does pick up i'd keep it.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

CFR requires that cable companies pass the PSIP data. If the channel is received by the cable company directly instead of OTA, then the PSIP data may not be there. There is no requirement to populate missing data,

Last night the local CBS affiliate did an analog test. The analog signal received over cable was obviously NOT the OTA signal.

I continue to maintain the Tivo doesn't want to wander into this no-man's land until clear QA< PSIP data is strightened out. I don't like it, but I really can't blame them.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

psuJC said:


> You want market data? This tivo's going back to the store. If I could get guide data for the QAM channels it does pick up i'd keep it.


Another person who equates their own personal desires and inclinations with market data.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now I think we are on the same page, though I would state TiVo has significant risk in that if guide data is provided and people use it to schedule shows, then the channel moves then people see that as an unreliable Tivo DVR versus a QAM mapping issue. Being branded unreliable is very costly so the risk is correspondingly significant.


I think we have been on the same page and I see your points, but we just fundamentally disagree about the risk and rewards of it. I think Tivo has already done significant damage to their brand at this point (# of problems/bugs HD Platform >> that of Series 2 models. Granted it is a much more complicated device but the consumer cares nothing of that) and think guide data for QAM channels with PSIP info has significant upside and don't see as much downside as you. And you appear to think the downside is too great and will further erode the brand. Pardon me if I'm way off.

But much ado about nothing. I may get my wish when channels with PSIP data at callsigns are a norm, or it may be too far in the future.

The planned DirectTV Tivo cannot get here fast enough for me.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> I think Tivo has already done significant damage to their brand at this point (# of problems/bugs HD Platform >> that of Series 2 models. Granted it is a much *more complicated device* but the consumer *cares nothing* of that) and think guide data for QAM channels with PSIP info has significant upside and *don't see* as much downside as you.


Note the phrases I've highlighted. These are, practically speaking, uncontrollable variables. They are almost surely true, and each one contributes, as you alluded to, to damaging TiVo's reputation, but also almost surely these are things that TiVo could not do anything significant to obviate. In essence, what you're saying here is that circumstance has driven TiVo's reputation down, rather than any definitively provable failing on TiVo's part. (Not that there couldn't have been any such failings -- rather, just that what you're saying here doesn't prove any such.)

TiVo didn't order separable security. TiVo didn't draft the CableCARD spec. And TiVo cannot help that 1080i/720p HD represents a naturally more complicated quantity than 480i analog. Therefore, TiVo didn't decide themselves to make the TiVo S3 a more complicated device than the S2.

The fact that customers don't care about complexities and don't see the costs that granting them what they want would likely raise doesn't obviate the complexities, and doesn't obviate the costs. They are real factors, which must be factored into the decision about what TiVo "should" do, even if customers don't recognize or care about them.

And no matter how much anyone tries to assert it, there is no proof that providing QAM mapping will represent any significant bonus to TiVo.

The only significant failing on TiVo's part that I could see the logic of is the assertion that TiVo didn't design the S3 with sufficient robustness. It is much more persnickety than comparable devices, operating only within narrower tolerances.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

From tivo's website:



> HD TiVo DVRs have two built-in digital tuners but require CableCARD(s) to tune digital cable channels. Without CableCARDs, an HD TiVo DVR can tune only basic cable channels that are broadcast with an analog signal.


The wording on the box lets you know that you might need a cable card to receive digital cable channels. It doesn't give you anyway to know, prior to purchasing, if your system would need cc. Based on the wording on the box 99%+ of all digital cable subscribers could need cc, even for unencrypted channels.

I understand some customers would like the ability to tune/record/get guide data for all unencrypted digital channels but* tivo never promised that feature.* The wording on the box doesn't suggest that feature and the material on their website gives you no basis to assume that feature.

Moxi lets customers manually "map" channels. I don't know if this would be enough to make customers happy, or if the same people would complain about the process not being automatic. Who would those people blame if they didn't change the mapping in time and some of their favorite shows failed to record.

Tivo is a premium priced DVR. *I'll speculate* tivo doesn't think very many customers will be spending the $ for tivo service but will only be subscribing to broadcast local channels with cable.



JJ said:


> *So,*
> exactly how would TiVo adding support for PSIP/QAM channels diminish your TiVo experience? I'm guessing that you 'got yours' and now anything TiVo could develop that you don't want or need is frivilous. You are welcome to keep your cable cards if you like, but why force others to have them?
> 
> TiVoHD package says:
> ...


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

bicker said:


> And no matter how much anyone tries to assert it, there is no proof that providing QAM mapping will represent any significant bonus to TiVo.


And no proof of the detriment. Only speculation. But that's what we do here isn't it 

I'd say the newer models suddenly not recording season pases and the Netflix app possibly locking up your unit to the point of not booting are examples of things that were certainly within their control. There were factors outside of their control that you mention, but they are certainly not without fault in damaging their brand name.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> I'd say the newer models suddenly not recording season pases and the Netflix app possibly locking up your unit to the point of not booting are examples of things that were certainly within their control.


And I'll add the whole lack of robustness issue that I often bring up.

And certainly these things are all far more important for them to be spending their time on, working to resolve, and working to prevent similar instances in other services they already provide and already plan to provide, then spending time on QAM mapping.


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## Meklos (Nov 22, 2002)

This doesn't have to be any different than every undocumented unsupported feature that starts with Select-Play-Select... Put in a way to manually map QAM channels to existing guide data, and if the provider changes the mapping, it's up to me to fix it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Who knows? Maybe someday you'll get your wish.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo subscribers are free to suggest new features. Tivo has a form on their website.

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/

Instead of complaining on TCF those customers who might take advantage of a manual channel mapping option should make the suggestion directly to tivo.

We don't where this feature is on tivo's to do list, if it's near the bottom it'll never happen.

Some of us think tivo probably knows the number of customers and potential customers who will pay a premium price for a tivo DVR but don't want to pay for cc is very limited. We may be wrong but a dozen posters on TCF aren't likely to change tivos mind.

The feature will be added if the programming and support requirements are minimal or if tivo thinks it's a feature many potential customers will find valuable enough to subscribe.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

lew said:


> Tivo subscribers are free to suggest new features. Tivo has a from on their website.
> 
> http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/
> 
> ...


+1. Anyone who wants this feature please take the time to fill it out.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> The non-supported way I'd like to see this implemented would be to allow users to surf to a special web page on the Tivo that would show all the channels picked up on a channel scan. Then let me enter a re-map channel for any that need it. I would understand that these re-maps are *MY* responsibility and that if they change unexpectedly, I'm out of luck so far as missing recordings. Because the interface would not be shown thru the Tivo on the TV, only "advanced" users would even know it's there. Support would come through Tivo fan sites only. That would be how I would propose to improve this situation.


that is a good plan alright. It addresses the hacker problem of needing to dig deep in the guts to do the mapping and thus making it harder to provide easy to replicate hacks for this, especially on unmodded boxes.
It also addresses the reliability perception as only users who understand the issues would be likely to use it.

However it does not address the resources at Tivo issue as they would have to provide the web page and also the code to have the page make the changes. Plus it becomes a maintenance and testing issue in subsequent releases as why add the hidden feature if it stops working due to some other change


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

lew said:


> Tivo is a premium priced DVR. *I'll speculate* tivo doesn't think very many customers will be spending the $ for tivo service but will only be subscribing to broadcast local channels with cable.


We have a winner I think you hit the nail on the head. That number I would imagine would be extremely small.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

JWThiers said:


> We have a winner I think you hit the nail on the head. That number I would imagine would be extremely small.


 Well using that logic then they should have not bothered adding proper ATSC support either as number of people using OTA only with Tivo subscription is likely "very small" as well.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Uh, no; there is not necessarily any relationship between the number of customers subscribing to limited basic cable service as compared to the number of customers relying on OTA only.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

nor is there any relationship between the programming/support it takes to handle OTA (nationwide standard) vs what it takes to handle the way thousands of cable systems handle unencrypted QAM channels.

I'm not saying tivo shouldn't/won't allow for some kind of QAM mapping. I'm saying I don't know how much effort it will take nor how many potential subscribers tivo would net.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed, and even if there was a correlation, f, between the costs to support one versus the other, supporting both would therefore cost X + f(X). X + f(X) > X for all reasonable expectations of f.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

The potential black-eye they could get from missed recordings due to mapping errors is just not worth it for them I suppose.

Let's say you manually map channels and one night your wife misses Grays Anatomy because the map changed. The first thing she'll probably say is "why didn't the $^&#37; TiVo record my show?" 

The "$^%" will depend on how closely she is related to the Blagos of Chi.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I believe the motivation behind arguing against this feature is primarily elitism rather than common sense. Keep this in mind when you read the replies of those in this thread and nearly any other thread on this subject.

The second motivation behind arguing against this feature is the inability for some to "put themselves into other peoples shoes." It is very common, _espeically_ on this forum, to think a feature that isn't used personally has no value. Broken suggestions come to mind - the stink generated by a few long time users because "No one uses them anyways so who cares" is very similar to some comments in this thread.



psuJC said:


> Well, i'm having a heck of a time getting my cable company to get the cable cards working. they're blaming tivo, tivo's blaming them. I hate this tivo now... simply because of this. I want to watch TV, not sit on the phone for a grand total of 10 hours now, and 4 appoitments.
> 
> You want market data? This tivo's going back to the store. If I could get guide data for the QAM channels it does pick up i'd keep it.


Thank you. This is once again another example of a common occurance that has been documented on this forum multiple times.
-
Why can't some of you figure out where all these refurbed Tivo HDs are coming from,,, I'll give you a hint - many aren't broken when sent back.



Meklos said:


> This doesn't have to be any different than every undocumented unsupported feature that starts with Select-Play-Select... Put in a way to manually map QAM channels to existing guide data, and if the provider changes the mapping, it's up to me to fix it.


Right. Think of the customer who would purchase a preconfigured upgrade drive. They are not technically savvy most of the time but realize the device will no longer be fully supported by Tivo.



lew said:


> Tivo is a premium priced DVR. *I'll speculate* tivo doesn't think very many customers will be spending the $ for tivo service but will only be subscribing to broadcast local channels with cable.


Some do, especially if you live too far for an antenna to work but that is not who we (we being those who support adding this feature) are talking about. I think you forget that the *MAJORITY* of cable subscribers get nothing more than Extended Basic which happens to include HD locals.



JWThiers said:


> We have a winner I think you hit the nail on the head. That number I would imagine would be extremely small.


It isn't. Most do not know of the Moxi so their choice of a DVR falls to either the cable company unit or the Tivo. The Tivo HD can record HD so the S2 is no longer part of the decision. This type of idea is forcing the Tivo to be a higher overall cost device than it needs to be.



bicker said:


> Oh wow. So you consider your own personal interactions fully representative of the entire marketplace. You think an awful lot of yourself.
> 
> Market research involves a representative sampling of the market.


I consider my own *business* interactions to be fully representative of a majority of the population in my area within a certain income and education level. I am getting paid to come to the persons office or house and help them decide the configuration of their "tech." Home Theater is not my focus but I don't mind getting paid to answer often simple questions 
The data is no invalidated because of the small sample size. 
I still believe I have successfully gathered a "representative sampling of the market." I can say for sure it is more accurate than your speculations about the "market"

BTW people don't get rich by making bad financial decisions. The idea that the Tivo is a premium unit suggests only those with enough money to spend should be using it. That same group would know to calculate the total cost of ownership and see that based solely on cost the Cable Company DVR ends up being a better choice. It may sound dumb but a good chunk of the people I have helped do not have time to watch a lot of TV. They often want the HD DVR so they can record the Nightly News and Jay Leno/David Letterman. I personally think this isn't using the HD portion to its full potential but hey, it's not my place to decide what programming someone watches!

You may call it penny wise and pound foolish but thats just the way people are and Tivo could benefit by taking advantage of it.



moyekj said:


> Well using that logic then they should have not bothered adding proper ATSC support either as number of people using OTA only with Tivo subscription is likely "very small" as well.


Wait, but Tivo is a premium device and you are supposed to pay 100$ a month in cable bills to use it. Are you mad? You aren't allowed to use a DVR with an antenna 

You know Tivo offered to upgrade S1 users who were using OTA recently? There are more OTA only users than others would like to believe.

From http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6929977#post6929977


sylan said:


> I'm glad to report that this method does indeed work. I provided Stubby with the requirements listed above (check Saxion's 1st post) and I received a modified image that works exactly as advertised. Not having guide data for my clear QAM HD channels was a deal-breaker for me, and I was about ready to return the Tivo, so thank you very much Stubby.


Proof yet again that -
People want QAM mapping
It works on UNHACKED Tivos
Some are willing to pay for a feature that may stop working because according to others the cable company plays PSIP and Frequency roulette with the unencrypted QAM channels daily.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

ciper said:


> The data is no invalidated because of the small sample size.


This may sound 'elitist' - and I do apologize in advance if it does - but the Central Limit Theorem only works as long as the distribution of the data is not strongly skewed and there are no outliers.

With respect to the general TiVo population, your SRS is likely to be skewed and too small. But even if it is skewed, you can correct with a large enough sample. The max size you would need would be n = (z* / 2m)^2 where z* is the critical value for the given confidence level and m is margin of error.

So using the nice round number of 3 million current TiVo subscribers, how many would you have to sample to get a good guess on the true proportion that want QAM mapping?

Assuming you want a 95% confidence interval and be on the safe side (assume it's 50/50 QAM/no QAM) you should sample:
n = (1.96/2.8667^-4)^2 = ~17,521 people.

Of course there's lots of survey tricks to avoid having to call that many people, since it would extremely expensive. But that would require me to describe more 'elitist' stuff. So I'm going to avoid that.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ciper said:


> I believe the motivation behind arguing against this feature is primarily elitism rather than common sense.


You are welcome to your beliefs. So far, no one has argued "against" this feature. So you're already starting off using deception to try to make your point, showing that you yourself recognize the inherent lack of merit in what you're trying to say.



ciper said:


> Keep this in mind when you read the replies of those in this thread and nearly any other thread on this subject.


I suppose folks should keep your use of deception in mind whenever reading any of your replies on this forum. 

Why not stick to the topic instead of engaging in juvenile silliness, trying to make it seem like you're making a valid point?

Accept, whether you like it or not, that the motivation for objecting to the comments you're trying to support is to foster people understanding and being prepared for the *reality they're going to encounter*, rather than fostering unfounded expectations.



ciper said:


> The second motivation behind arguing against this feature is the inability for some to "put themselves into other peoples shoes."


On the contrary, your tactics are clearly intended to direct others towards the same unfounded expectations, and therefore direct them towards the same disappointment, that you experience. You're basically cynically looking for commiseration.

This ascribing of nefarious intentions onto others is fun. Thanks for starting this game.



ciper said:


> I consider my own *business* interactions to be fully representative of a majority of the population in my area within a certain income and education level.


Of course you do, and it sure doesn't hurt that it happens to support assertions for which you have no other objective evidence. It serves your vested interest to try to project your own anecdotal experiences as something more than what they are, given that you don't actually have the bandwidth to conduct the kind of *valid *, normalized market research that TiVo almost surely does.



ciper said:


> I still believe I have successfully gathered a "representative sampling of the market." I can say for sure it is more accurate than your speculations about the "market"


Gee. Believe you know what's best for TiVo? or believe that TiVo knows what's best for TiVo? Gosh, such a _hard_ choice. Oh wait! No, it isn't a hard choice. It's very easy. You almost surely don't know better than they do about what's best for their company. Maybe you'll eventually come to realize that. Perhaps not.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ciper said:


> The second motivation behind arguing against this feature is the inability for some to "put themselves into other peoples shoes." It is very common, _espeically_ on this forum, to think a feature that isn't used personally has no value. Broken suggestions come to mind - the stink generated by a few long time users because "No one uses them anyways so who cares" is very similar to some comments in this thread.


hmm - I have a TiVo HD on extended basic cable, no cbale cards and get only 3 OTA channels clear enough to use.
I actually could *use* this feature.
I turned off suggestions long ago as it kept changing the channel on me too much and I never really looked at them anyway. I never even posted in the "broken suggestions" threads as someone who uses a feature tha tTiVo publicly does already support should expect it to function correctly.

So I actually put myself in others shoes and look beyond just my own desire for a feature I could use. I see many items on TiVo incs. plate and want them to put out a tru2way DVR - that will be where any revenue is so I assume TiVo has set that priority as well. Oh and Netflix - that is a very marketable feature and TiVo needs to keep resources focused on making sure it works well and not let it die an untimely death from bugs.



> Proof yet again that -
> People want QAM mapping
> It works on UNHACKED Tivos
> Some are willing to pay for a feature that may stop working because according to others the cable company plays PSIP and Frequency roulette with the unencrypted QAM channels daily.


umm - it works on an unmodded TiVo - which is a plus but clearly involves more hacking than jsut hooking up 2 drives in a PC and running a command line to type in a command to run a script.
some was 1 person - another was test case and I think did not have to pay - 2 others were interested but were leery of the risk on this new hack, as was I.

for a forum that can generate long threads pretty quickly - not really much of a showing, sorry.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*TiVo*
started with a single box that was appropriate for every situation. The TiVo Series1 worked with antenna, cable or satellite. Later it was updated so it would allow two of those sources simultaneously, a happy day in my household. This would be an example of TiVo improving an existing product by software update with a feature not originally mentioned.

If there is an elite product, the TiVoSeries3 with THX and glo-remote would certainly fill that bill. So be it, let TiVoHD be the 'everymans' product. I really don't care if the 'TiVo elitists' think less of me because my particular situation does not require a CableCARD solution. I really don't want the additional cost (buying an unwanted digital tier) or complications (multiple installer visits) CableCARD seems to bring based on forum reports and experience with local installations.

Comcast is providing the PSIP data as required, TiVo already has the PSIP chanels identified in thier database. If the cable PSIP were not already in but dormant in the TiVo database I'm not certain how they would have callsign data (but no program data) when discovered by a channel rescan.

I don't pretend to know everything about databases or TiVo internal programming, but populating program data into already existing channel fields does not seem to be a difficult task. To me as an unknowing outsider, this all seems fairly trivial and a lot more like a simple TiVo/Tribune lineup change than a complicated rewrite of the entire operating system.

Cable companies sending PSIP data should be a happy day for TiVo since this information (that currently installed software is already able to resolve) may mean far fewer manual lineup changes for them in the future...


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## pldoolittle (May 2, 2002)

lessd said:


> Without cable cards you see ch above 125 ?? Check your cable card slots as you must have a cable card of some type. The TiVo will, without cable cards, tune up to ch 9999 but from 125 on you should see nothing but a blank screen. I don't mean to call IE say ch 67-1 as 671.


Yep, I see channels 2-999 and ZERO channels with a dash or dot (67-1 or 67.1) in the channel number. The CCard slots (both of them) can't possibly get any emptier. Even the Tivo confirms no cable cards inserted in either slot. And I have a viewable picture on at least 50% of the channels between 125 and 999. I have channel names, guide data, and info (slightly incorrect), but all programs are in SD.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

ciper said:


> I believe the motivation behind arguing against this feature is primarily elitism rather than common sense. Keep this in mind when you read the replies of those in this thread and nearly any other thread on this subject.
> .


*There isn't any post in this thread arguing against this feature.* I don't know if you didn't take the time *to read the posts* or if you just like *making up facts*

Tivo has a place in their website where customers can suggest new features. Tivo has a list of possible future features. Customers can indicate which future features they would like to see.

QAM mapping isn't even on that list. A few of us having been giving some reasons why tivo might not implement that feature. People who want that feature should communicate directly with tivo. I'm sure tivo will add that feature *if tivo thinks it will generate enough revenue to justify the resources necessary to provide and support that feature* Actually that might not even be true if tivo thinks those resources could be more profitably deployed in another project.

I'm not doubting some people might find value in QAM mapping.

I'd expect that if the PSIP data solution is easy to implement tivo might do so, as long as they think the solution is stable. QAM tuners in some TV sets had issues with the way FiOS was handling PSIP.

None of us have access to any kind of reliable information regarding how popular this feature will be. Those posters who don't believe tivo has done a good job judging the potential market for various new products/features don't have any hard facts to base their opinion.

SDV, the upcoming DTV Tivo and even the rumored S4 expands tivo's potential customer base. QAM channel mapping doesn't expand the potential customer base. It allows an unknown number of subscribers to save a few dollars a month cc rental fee.

*I'm sure tivo will implement QAM mapping if it's as trivial as some posters think but* I don't think the number of posts in on TCF will have any impact on tivo's decision.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> *There isn't any post in this thread arguing against this feature.*


Hopefully we won't need to repeat this every few messages, to keep the red herrings from spawning.



lew said:


> I don't know if you didn't take the time *to read the posts* or if you just like *making up facts*


I've found that sometimes, when some people don't have a valid argument against *something *they don't _like_, they'll try to discredit it by arguing against *something *_*else*_. They think that by posting a valid argument against *something *as a reply to a message about *something else*, that they can snow enough people into believing that they actually discredited the *something else*. It's a pretty craven and cynical debating tactic, and shows a lack of intellectual honesty, something that really upsets me.



lew said:


> Tivo has a place in their website where customers can suggest new features. Tivo has a list of possible future features. Customers can indicate which future features they would like to see.
> 
> QAM mapping isn't even on that list.


I noticed that too, and it is interesting. I think a link to that suggestion page was posted earlier in this thread, or perhaps it was some other QAM mapping thread. I took the opportunity to suggest that TiVo actually work to provide accommodation to deaf and hard-of-hearing subscribers, by both supporting Closed Captioning in all their new video on-demand services and pushing their content suppliers to include support for Closed Captioning in all the content, itself, such that it would be usable by TiVo's VOD Closed Captioning decoding implementation.

I draw the contrast between my suggestion and the QAM mapping suggestion: The need that QAM mapping satisfies can be satisfied by CableCARD(s) (it just incurs more cost and perhaps a little more aggravation with the cable company), while there is nothing that will make VOD useful to deaf and hard-of-hearing subscribers (folks who are promised accommodation as a matter of public policy, not just marketing) other than captioning -- or having magic fairies restore hearing loss.



lew said:


> I'm not doubting some people might find value in QAM mapping.


I've even said, in previous QAM mapping threads, that I would, yet that didn't stop people from claiming that I was posting in opposition to the feature. People are pretty silly sometimes.



lew said:


> None of us have access to any kind of reliable information regarding how popular this feature will be.


This is something else I've noted: In just about every consumer market, there are a number of consumers who seem to be incapable of accepting that folks who manage mass-market suppliers tend to have better data about what consumers, as a whole, are willing to pay for. Either that, or they resist the idea that what consumers are willing to pay for is a valid measure of what best serves the interests of the business.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

TolloNodre said:


> So using the nice round number of 3 million current TiVo subscribers, how many would you have to sample to get a good guess on the true proportion that want QAM mapping?


There are WELL under 1 million TiVo DVRs that can receive QAM. The number is actually probably well under 500,000. The largest group of TiVo DVRs in that 3 million are DirecTV DVRs with TiVo service and standalone series 2 DVRs. Neither of those classes can receive and decode a QAM signal.

edit: The DTV HD DVRs with TiVo can receive ATSC, so I could be wrong about their ability to see a QAM, but they should still not be included in the calculation since DTV would be the one to decide what features to include, not TiVo, and DTV is trying to phase those units out.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

TolloNodre said:


> So using the nice round number of 3 million current TiVo subscribers, how many would you have to sample to get a good guess on the true proportion that want QAM mapping?


Wrong question. How many *new customers* might be subscribe to tivo if QAM mapping was added. How many existing, paying, subscribers might *cancel tivo* if QAM mapping isn't added.



bicker said:


> I noticed that too, and it is interesting. I think a link to that suggestion page was posted earlier in this thread, or perhaps it was some other QAM mapping thread. I took the opportunity to suggest that TiVo actually work to provide accommodation to deaf and hard-of-hearing subscribers, by both supporting Closed Captioning in all their new video on-demand services and pushing their content suppliers to include support for Closed Captioning in all the content, itself, such that it would be usable by TiVo's VOD Closed Captioning decoding implementation.
> 
> I draw the contrast between my suggestion and the QAM mapping suggestion: The need that QAM mapping satisfies can be satisfied by CableCARD(s) (it just incurs more cost and perhaps a little more aggravation with the cable company), while there is nothing that will make VOD useful to deaf and hard-of-hearing subscribers (folks who are promised accommodation as a matter of public policy, not just marketing) other than captioning -- or having magic fairies restore hearing loss.
> 
> This is something else I've noted: In just about every consumer market, there are a number of consumers who seem to be incapable of accepting that folks who manage mass-market suppliers tend to have better data about what consumers, as a whole, are willing to pay for. Either that, or they resist the idea that what consumers are willing to pay for is a valid measure of what best serves the interests of the business.


I posted the link. I hope the posters who want QAM mapping are communicating with tivo. Is the closed captioning issue for VODs caused by the vendors not providing the data or is tivo parsing the data?

JMO but even a valid survey regarding QAM mapping may have limited value. The answer may be different if cable companies that currently don't encrypt most digital stations decide to encrypt all but the "must carry" stations. Certainly plausible as more customers have QAM tuners in their TV sets. The answer might also be different if a cable system either lower the cc rental fee (consumer protection issue) or are able to raise the fee.

Some S3 customers would like the ability to use one cable card and use the second tuner to record unencrypted digital channels. Would the "complainers" be happy if the QAM channel mapping solution was all or nothing and couldn't accomodate those customers?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Is the closed captioning issue for VODs caused by the vendors not providing the data or is tivo parsing the data?


The last time I conversed with someone from TiVo about this, the answer was BOTH. That's why I made a point of saying that TiVo just fixing their side of the problem isn't good enough.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

moyekj said:


> Well using that logic then they should have not bothered adding proper ATSC support either as number of people using OTA only with Tivo subscription is likely "very small" as well.


I don't agree with Tivos choice to do it that way, But if you consider the few number of people they figure this would affect and and the percentage of those that would be cursing Tivo for missing a show that they didn't channel map properly or the map changed, I can understand it.


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## sylan (Dec 10, 2008)

lew said:


> Tivo subscribers are free to suggest new features. Tivo has a form on their website.
> 
> http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/
> 
> Instead of complaining on TCF those customers who might take advantage of a manual channel mapping option should make the suggestion directly to tivo.


Just did it.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Meklos said:


> This doesn't have to be any different than every undocumented unsupported feature that starts with Select-Play-Select... Put in a way to manually map QAM channels to existing guide data, and if the provider changes the mapping, it's up to me to fix it.


Your suggestion would cover TiVo's assumptions. 

But would it be worth the cost?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lew said:


> *There isn't any post in this thread arguing against this feature.* I don't know if you didn't take the time *to read the posts* or if you just like *making up facts*


I'll add my +1 to this. ciper, please stop accusing people of not wanting this feature. We get that you and others want it bad, and all agree that it would be useful to those capable of setting it up (and keeping it up when channels change).
This argument has nothing to do with being 'elitist' or 'not putting ourselves in others' shoes'. It has everything to do with explaining why Tivo might not want to create and more importantly, *take support calls* for a feature which could result in unreliable recordings down the road, due to no fault of their own. No one knows whether sales are impacted because it's missing, but I'm sure they've done their own studies on it.

So if you want it, petition Tivo via the suggestions link, and while you're at it, petition the FCC to enforce PSIP data for all local channels in clear QAM. But stop putting words in our mouths when you don't like the answer.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

slowbiscuit said:


> *take support calls*


Which part of "unsupported feature" is being lost in translation? Just like calling about enabling 30-second skip or using other S-P-S codes, the CSR will tell you they cannot help you with unsupported features.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

lew said:


> Wrong question. How many *new customers* might be subscribe to tivo if QAM mapping was added. How many existing, paying, subscribers might *cancel tivo* if QAM mapping isn't added.


There is yet another category, and I'm in it.

I'm already an existing, paying subscriber. I won't cancel because of lack of QAM. However, I would *buy three more* TiVo HD boxes if I didn't have to pay the extra $8 per month for each box (FiOS pricing) just for the cablecards. Verizon's pricing for cablecards is way too expensive. $300/year extra? I don't think so!


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## plumeria (Jun 14, 2005)

sylan said:


> Just did it.


+1

Clearly there is a business reason for Tivo not to offer QAM mapping to customers who could set it up themselves and be responsible for remapping. As can be seen from this and other huge threads on this topic cable cards generate a significant amount of money for the cable companies and I suspect (no proof) back-room deals between Tivo and the cable companies to prevent such a feature.

Only way to find out for sure is to get the right job at Tivo or a cable company 

Can anyone point me to any hacks that people have tried successfully?

thanks

peter


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

lew said:


> Wrong question. How many *new customers* might be subscribe to tivo if QAM mapping was added. How many existing, paying, subscribers might *cancel tivo* if QAM mapping isn't added.


I don't have an answer, but me personally... I'm letting my S3's contract burn out, and if there isn't at least a manual mapping feature (with an understanding that I'm in charge re-mapping as needed) by the end of the contract, then I'm going to cancel.

My attitude is I'm about finished with paying for manual recordings. Show times move around more than my open QAM channels do. It'd be less work to keep tabs on moving channels (once or twice a year for me) than to re-do manual recordings.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I couldn't imagine going back to 2001 when I had to manually set up my HD recordings with my HiPix cards. Ever since the HDTiVo from DirecTV came out in 2004 it's been sweet.
But then to pay a monthly TiVo fee and still have to manually set up a recording? I can see being pissed about that situation.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't have an answer, but me personally... I'm letting my S3's contract burn out, and if there isn't at least a manual mapping feature (with an understanding that I'm in charge re-mapping as needed) by the end of the contract, then I'm going to cancel.
> 
> My attitude is I'm about finished with paying for manual recordings. Show times move around more than my open QAM channels do. It'd be less work to keep tabs on moving channels (once or twice a year for me) than to re-do manual recordings.


So what DVR product will you move to? Or will you not have a DVR anymore?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Well I'll be no worse off having a tuner card in the PC to do manual recordings for me. My cable co's DVR isn't all that bad either, but I'll cross that road when I get to it.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

Accurate PSIP does not solve the problem of channel mapping the way cable cards do. Virtual channels provided by PSIP are only learned by a channel scan. For example when your PSIP was added to the QAM RF channel carrying 33.1 Tivo learned 33.1 maps to (for example) RF channel 77. If your cable company decides to move 33.1 from RF channel 77 to RF channel 88 your Tivo will no longer be able to find the channel, when you enter 33.1, it will tune to RF 77 and would probably show no signal since the PSIP stream for 33.1 will be missing, to repair the missing 33.1 would require a rescan.

Cable cards on the other hand will receive an updated channel map and will know where to find the cable channel version of 33.1.

Tivo does not rely on PSIP to find Antenna channels, the RF channel information comes from Tribune. I know this because I've been trying for a while now to get Tivo to correct an incorrect RF entry for a local channel.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

kb7oeb said:


> Accurate PSIP does not solve the problem of channel mapping the way cable cards do. Virtual channels provided by PSIP are only learned by a channel scan. For example when your PSIP was added to the QAM RF channel carrying 33.1 Tivo learned 33.1 maps to (for example) RF channel 77. If your cable company decides to move 33.1 from RF channel 77 to RF channel 88 your Tivo will no longer be able to find the channel, when you enter 33.1, it will tune to RF 77 and would probably show no signal since the PSIP stream for 33.1 will be missing, to repair the missing 33.1 would require a rescan.
> 
> Cable cards on the other hand will receive an updated channel map and will know where to find the cable channel version of 33.1.
> 
> Tivo does not rely on PSIP to find Antenna channels, the RF channel information comes from Tribune. I know this because I've been trying for a while now to get Tivo to correct an incorrect RF entry for a local channel.


I think that is a very good point.

Some here seem to be under the impression that once they can see PSIP mapped QAM channels in their guide (on 5.1, 7.1, etc), then they're all set and it doesn't matter what changes their provider makes. That is not the case.

As you say, the TiVo only "knows" the corresponding off-air assignments for 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc because it is told by Tribune. Tribune does not offer that information for QAM.


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## plumeria (Jun 14, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> I think that is a very good point.
> 
> Some here seem to be under the impression that once they can see PSIP mapped QAM channels in their guide (on 5.1, 7.1, etc), then they're all set and it doesn't matter what changes their provider makes. That is not the case.
> 
> As you say, the TiVo only "knows" the corresponding off-air assignments for 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc because it is told by Tribune. Tribune does not offer that information for QAM.


My cable company Comcast in the San Francisco Bay area has kept the vast majority of its clear QAM channels constant for over a year.. e.g. 84-3 has been Discovery for well over a year. If they were changing every few days I would agree with many posts but that is not what is happening.

peter


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

plumeria said:


> Only way to find out for sure is to get the right job at Tivo or a cable company


Don't even jokingly baffle them with logic like that.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I just submitted the Feature Request Form for this feature. Everyone should do it. When doing so, be sure to go to the bottom and when asked to rank your requests that you select "Other" as the top priority. Other refers to the manually added feature rather than any of the published selected features.

Off topic, but just a note. I also submitted one to allow for Folder Management on TiVo. Allow me to group all Movies in one folder, etc.

This has probably been discussed somewhere, but one question. If the PSIP data beng provided is correct (which seems to be the case in more and more circumstances) wouldn't TiVo display the proper guide data if TMS just included hese clear-QAM channels in their guide? If so, maybe we should be focusing on that change.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

plumeria said:


> My cable company Comcast in the San Francisco Bay area has kept the vast majority of its clear QAM channels constant for over a year.. e.g. 84-3 has been Discovery for well over a year. If they were changing every few days I would agree with many posts but that is not what is happening.
> 
> peter


For another data point, Comcast just moved the local WB and MyNetwork affiliates to different freqs here in the ATL. Before that, I think they moved PBS and Fox on the last update. I have to update them manually on my Myth box.

Just about every time they add new HD channels (once a year or so), some local or two in clear QAM gets moved around.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> Which part of "unsupported feature" is being lost in translation? Just like calling about enabling 30-second skip or using other S-P-S codes, the CSR will tell you they cannot help you with unsupported features.


Kind of hard to create an 'unsupported feature' that at a minimum might require a screen to allow you to assign the correct channel mapping for all the scanned channels. You might be able to get away with some goofy unsupported key sequence to assign it while watching the channel, but that doesn't sound like a clean way to do it.

Whatever, it doesn't matter - they don't want to do it, unsupported or no. Put in your request via the research link and/or open a case with a CSR.


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## jimmystewart (Dec 30, 2006)

i posted this question on the tivo qam letter writing thread, anyone have any comments?

i think this is what most people want.

My understanding is that Verizon FIOS only has digital signals, and no analog, so do QAM broadcast channels show up on the guide or rather are there no channels in your guide unless you have a cable card?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jimmystewart said:


> i think this is what most people want.


"Most people"? What do you base that on?

What is true is that most people posting on threads that are about QAM mapping want QAM mapping. The most conservative interpretation would dictate that the tens of millions of _*other*_ people don't care about QAM mapping.



jimmystewart said:


> My understanding is that Verizon FIOS only has digital signals, and no analog, so ... are there no channels in your guide unless you have a cable card?


Yes. The TiVo S3 and TiVo HD are generally intended to be used with CableCARD(s) when used for cable service.


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## jimmystewart (Dec 30, 2006)

bicker said:


> "Most people"? What do you base that on?


...um most people asking for qam mapping, would want at the very least their locals mapped, or am i wrong? 
Also,


bicker said:


> The TiVo S3 and TiVo HD are generally intended to be used with CableCARD(s) when used for cable service.


Sure, I'm not disputing that in most situations you'd want to use a cable card. Obviously the Tivo can use a cable-ready signal (because setup allows for this) and I am wondering what happens to the boxes when the cable signal is completely transitioned to digital, does the guide data come for unscrambled clear-Qam broadcasts (such as those for verizon fios) or if you hook your tivo up and during setup select the no cable card option and are plugged into a digital only cable signal is there no guide data at all? 
Presumably there would be some guide data for verizon fios-tv (and other cable providers who have transitioned to 100% digital) right?

I find it hard to believe otherwise, but then again what do i know.

From what i understand the reason Tivo doesn't include guide data for clear Qam channels, is not a technological one, rather its a matter of time/effort. Expecting Tivo to map non-broadcast channels is not likely, from my limited experience, cable companies always change the non-broadcast channels they send unencrypted so the list of these channels would always be changing. broadcast channels on the other hand are transmitted unencrypted and they are relatively stationary in their channel assignment.

What I am trying to say is that the point (of a Qam request letter) may become moot sometime in the future. If companies start transitioning to 100% digital, then Tivo would be more likely to add Qam mapping, as otherwise people could not use any of the tivo services without a cable card.

Is my theory 100% off the wall or close to reality.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jimmystewart said:


> ...um most people asking for qam mapping, would want at the very least their locals mapped, or am i wrong?


Yes, most people who want QAM mapping want QAM mapping.



jimmystewart said:


> From what i understand the reason Tivo doesn't include guide data for clear Qam channels, is not a technological one, rather its a matter of time/effort.


That sounds likely.



jimmystewart said:


> Is my theory 100% off the wall or close to reality.


I suspect closer to "off the wall" than "reality", vis a vis existing TiVo series. For, next generation TiVo's -- who knows?


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

I think if TiVo can't get data from cable companies of constantly changing QAM channels, they should do some sort of crowd-sourcing. Let users map channels, collect the data, and send this out to others based on the results of others that provided the same data, or downloaded the data vote for agreeing/disagreeing with the guide data. It'll give us another use for the thumbs up/down buttons by letting us rate the quality of the user-submitted crowd-sourced QAM mappings just like we can rate TV shows.

If they did this, they would be the first (to my knowledge) to provide QAM listings and not make each user individually, painstakingly, configure their QAM mappings. It would be a huge plus for TiVo vs. other PC/Mac DVR software out there.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

How much extra per month are you willing to pay for them to offer that?


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## wannaB (Sep 19, 2005)

How about an unsuppoted feature to allow mapping of QAM channels? Please?

What I can't understand is why some folks that do not want or need this spend so much time telling me I shouldn't want or need it.

How about an unsuppoted feature to allow mapping of QAM channels? Please?


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## steven975 (Jan 30, 2009)

I don't know if it's just me, but for QAM a PC and a Media Center Extender would fit the bill perfectly.

QAM works in Vista now, provided you have one of about 3 models of tuner card. You can watch the stuff from anywhere with a MCE.

All of this is at no cost, either. Why pay Tivo or rent cablecards? I have Tivo myself, but it is for the encrypted digital channels. The VMC PC with 2TB storage is for those channels that are unencrypted.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

steven975 said:


> ... Why pay Tivo or rent cablecards? ...


Because the TiVo software is better than anything else out there. I used a PC back in 2001 exclusively for recording and watching HD content. And used a TiVo for SD content. Once DireccTV came out with an HDTiVo in 2004 I dumped the PC solution for HD recording. 
Even for free or if my service provider actually paid me a few hundred a month to use their solution, I wouldn't do it. 
I'd rather have my TiVo software for my TV viewing. Even though I have to pay. It's worth it.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

wannaB said:


> How about an unsuppoted feature to allow mapping of QAM channels? Please?
> 
> What I can't understand is why some folks that do not want or need this spend so much time telling me I shouldn't want or need it.


I have not checked every post here but I've never seen anyone say that it is not a valid feature request or that you should not want it. Most agree that it would be nice to have. What many people are saying though, is that this feature is near the bottom of the list that the limited engineering talent should be working on. Big difference. The fact that you ask for it as an unsupported feature does not change the priority.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I've tried so say that TiVo loses sales when - 
People get clear QAM channels on their generic TV
They can't understand why all the Televisions in the house get the channel, even with guide data in some cases, but the TiVo cannot use the channels properly without renting a device from the cable company.

Here is an example http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=407091


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Yes, you've tried; and failed to demonstrate that what you're saying represents a significant amount of revenue. You simply don't have the evidence necessary to substantiate your claim that a significant amount of sales are driven by what you want -- specifically an amount sufficient to substantiate the costs plus provide a substantial enough amount of profit to justify the effort and primacy of that effort over many others mentioned. TiVo's actions, in this regard, are more than enough proof that that simply is _not_ the case.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ciper said:


> I've tried so say that TiVo loses sales when -
> People get clear QAM channels on their generic TV
> They can't understand why all the Televisions in the house get the channel, even with guide data in some cases, but the TiVo cannot use the channels properly without renting a device from the cable company.
> 
> Here is an example http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=407091


I know I would never choose wathing TV in realtime over TiVo. I started Time Shifting my TV viewing in 1984. To watch content in realtime wastes too much time since you have those commercials.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

steven975 said:


> I don't know if it's just me, but for QAM a PC and a Media Center Extender would fit the bill perfectly.
> 
> QAM works in Vista now, provided you have one of about 3 models of tuner card. You can watch the stuff from anywhere with a MCE.
> 
> All of this is at no cost, either. Why pay Tivo or rent cablecards? I have Tivo myself, but it is for the encrypted digital channels. The VMC PC with 2TB storage is for those channels that are unencrypted.


Agree except for the cost part. Building an HTPC costs money, and the free software requires you to pay $20/year for guide services. Most of this talk is much ado about nothing, because there are plenty of good HTPC alternatives including SageTV, BeyondTV, Myth, GBPVR, etc. With many more features than Tivo offers.
If you want Cablecard for the programming that's another matter, and it's the only reason why I have a Tivo HD. But if all you want is clear QAM and OTA, there's no reason to pay Tivo if you're moderately capable with PCs. But some people just gotta have Tivo I guess.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bicker said:


> you...don't have the evidence necessary to substantiate your claim that a significant amount of sales are driven by (unscrambled QAM channel mapping), specifically an amount sufficient to substantiate the costs plus provide a substantial enough amount of profit to justify the effort and primacy of that effort...TiVo's actions, in this regard, are more than enough proof that that simply is _not_ the case.


Of course there's no hard evidence; even TiVo's (in)action is only empirical evidence. TiVo Forum posters are merely asking that TiVo reconsider.

Remember TiVo's surprising resurrection of Lifetime Service. 



aaronwt said:


> I know I would never choose watching TV in realtime over TiVo. To watch content in realtime wastes too much time...


How many potential new TiVo customers will choose to buy a $200+ TiVo and then pay $13 a month for service that doesn't access one additional program (in reality TiVo provides fewer programs because no VOD) *plus* then pay an increased monthly fee to the cable company to enable TiVo to work efficiently and conveniently.

The times, they are a-changing, and not for the better for awhile. TiVo itself can only make educated guesses about the future and how viewers may choose to cut back.


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