# Game of Thrones - "The Ghost of Harrenhal" - s2e5 - 4/29/12



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Wow, that episode flew by. Nice symmetry with Renley's murder at the beginning by the shadow creature and the Tickler's murder at the end. Hard to believe the season is halfway done.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Smokey looked like Stanis.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

As I'm watching each different scene/setting (ie, North of the Wall, King's Landing, Winterfell, Qarth ...), I kept thinking that each one of those is worth an episode by itself. I could watch this show for hours on end . . .



Rickvz said:


> Hard to believe the season is halfway done.


Noooooooooo!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

If only HBO would give us more than 10 episodes per year. The story only gets MORE dense from here, not less.


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

Ereth said:


> If only HBO would give us more than 10 episodes per year. The story only gets MORE dense from here, not less.


Totally agree. I try to watch my shows binge style, but this is one show I just can't resist watching each week.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

At least we have books to fall back on.


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

netringer said:


> Smokey looked like Stanis.


Yep it was Stanis's love child with the red preistess.



DUDE_NJX said:


> At least we have books to fall back on.


Ya, but we only read them for the articles.

It's sad that I watch this show, I sneeze and it's over. 1 hour SURE flys
by when its a GREAT show.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The look on Arya's face when she realized she had gotten the Tickler killed was chilling...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Wow, that was pretty good. I had accidentally learned earlier this week that Renley died in the books, so I knew it was coming, and I put 2 + 2 together and figured it would be the smoke monster, but that was way better than I expected. However, my understanding was that in the book Renley died in a differenent way. Could someone please mention (in spoilers) 1) how Renley dies in the book, and 2) what was the purpose of the smoke monster in the book?

Also, this made me think...being able to take out a king like that, seemingly with no way to stop it, is a pretty powerful ability. What stops Stannis from just rinsing and repeating on anyone that stands in his way? I suppose there is a limit imposed by gestation time, but it seems like they could still do a lot of damage this way. And good thing they didn't have fertility treatments back then. Mellisandre + Octomom = total destruction. Throw in 1 more for good measure and you've got your own Ringwraiths.

In the scene where Theon was talking about the attack plans, I didn't catch everything. I know he was ordered to attack the fishing villiage, which was on the Stony Shore, correct? And then the conversation was basically that a true man of the iron islands does what he wants, not what he was commanded, so Theon was going to attack somewhere else instead, right? But I didn't catch where. And although it wasn't clear to me at the moment what his intention was, I later figured out it was a diversion to lure the soldiers out of Winterfell so he can attack there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Also, this made me think...being able to take out a king like that, seemingly with no way to stop it, is a pretty powerful ability. What stops Stannis from just rinsing and repeating on anyone that stands in his way? I suppose there is a limit imposed by gestation time, but it seems like they could still do a lot of damage this way. And good thing they didn't have fertility treatments back then. Mellisandre + Octomom = total destruction. Throw in 1 more for good measure and you've got your own Ringwraiths.


"Magic always has a price," as people keep saying.


LordKronos said:


> In the scene where Theon was talking about the attack plans, I didn't catch everything. I know he was ordered to attack the fishing villiage, which was on the Stony Shore, correct? And then the conversation was basically that a true man of the iron islands does what he wants, not what he was commanded, so Theon was going to attack somewhere else instead, right? But I didn't catch where. And although it wasn't clear to me at the moment what his intention was, I later figured out it was a diversion to lure the soldiers out of Winterfell so he can attack there.


He's attacking one of Robb's castles.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "Magic always has a price," as people keep saying.


But what's the price? A gallon of milk has a price, but that doesn't stop me from buying a few each week.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Wow! I'm reading the book, but my reading is slightly behind the show, so Renly's death was a surprise. That's a scary ability! 

I agree that the hour flew by. It seemed like I'd just started when I got the popup asking if I wanted to let Tivo change channels for my next show.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

OK, looking at the map on HBO's website, there is a marker for this episode at Torrhen's Square, not too far from Winterfell. I don't remember any scenes that would have been here, so I'm assuming this is where Theon attacked:
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/map/episodes/15/torrhens-square/


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> But what's the price? A gallon of milk has a price, but that doesn't stop me from buying a few each week.


Aye, there lies the rub. He'll have to see what this little magical adventure costs him, and decide whether it's useful enough to keep paying the price.

Or be a moron, and just start killing people left and right before he knows what it will cost him.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Aye, there lies the rub. He'll have to see what this little magical adventure costs him, and decide whether it's useful enough to keep paying the price.
> 
> Or be a moron, and just start killing people left and right before he knows what it will cost him.


On the flip side, with death that easy, Stannis also has to be careful not to piss off Mellisandre. Seems she could just as easily find someone else to father a smoke baby to kill Stannis.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> In the scene where Theon was talking about the attack plans, I didn't catch everything. I know he was ordered to attack the fishing village, which was on the Stony Shore, correct? And then the conversation was basically that a true man of the iron islands does what he wants, not what he was commanded, so Theon was going to attack somewhere else instead, right? But I didn't catch where. And although it wasn't clear to me at the moment what his intention was, I later figured out it was a diversion to lure the soldiers out of Winterfell so he can attack there.


I think the locale was called "Torrin's Square", it was the place that Bron was informed had been attacked after he had held court. Also note that Bron's dream of the sea washing over Winterfell "predicted" this as the raven leading him to the crypt presaged his father's death.

I'm still trying to figure out what outcome the Greyjoys think are going to achieve (if it is just vengeance on the Starks then I guess it makes some sense). It seems to me that for the Iron Islands to have any semblance of independence that the rest of Westeros would have to be fragmented, and the way to do that is to support the Starks, not weaken them.
But then again people in this series don't seem to always consider the strategic implications of their actions.

Was Arya trying to get caught in a lie with her first answer to Tywin's "Where are you from" question? If so that was really clever, let them knock down the first lie so they believe the 2nd one. And who do you think the other 2 on here "hit list" will end up being?

Was "Smoky" a one use assassin? After killing Renley he kind of faded away, but was that a retreat or an "End of program"?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

tiassa said:


> I think the locale was called "Torrin's Square", it was the place that Bron was informed had been attacked after he had held court. Also note that Bron's dream of the sea washing over Winterfell "predicted" this as the raven leading him to the crypt presaged his father's death.


Bran. Bron is Tyrion's sellsword.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> On the flip side, with death that easy, Stannis also has to be careful not to piss off Mellisandre. Seems she could just as easily find someone else to father a smoke baby to kill Stannis.


But we don't know how easy it is. If the cost is a canker sore, then yes, either one of them would be tempted to use it pretty freely. But if the cost is seven years of death, war, pestilence, and famine ravaging the countryside, then it might be used a little more...sparingly.

And I suspect Melisandre knows the price. The question is, does Stannis? Is he smart enough even to ask?


heySkippy said:


> Bran. Bron is Tyrion's sellsword.


Bron seems to be the only person who appreciates Tyrion as much, and in the same way, as we do. I love the looks on his face when Tyrion does something Tyrionesque.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay. My power outage last night put a crimp in my GoT watching and recording. Stupid drivers, apparently someone hit a pole and my entire housing development went into a little 2 hour blackout. By the time it came back on, I was in bed. So I came into work and did what any rational person would do, I pretended to be super duper busy and pulled out my iPad and hit HBOGO. 

So bear with me if on my small screen distracted by trying to be sneaky I didn't catch things as well as I'd like. I plan to watch again when I get home. My thoughts for now (before I actually read the thread and am tainted with others thoughts). 

Did not see Renly dying coming. Although afterward it should have been obvious the moment the smokey thing came out last week that it was going to do just what it did. I am just surprised that Stannis didn't seem to give a crap at all. Stone, that man is made of. Not sure how that bodes for a future King. So I assume by the reaction we got from Brienne that she was in love with him and not just loyal to him?? Sucks for her now because not only is he dead but his men thought she killed him. That entire scene was just freaky. It comes in and they all just stare at it while it slices right through him with it's smoke dagger then *poof* it's gone. I do love how fast word traveled and how pretty much everyone assumed it was Stannis. Brienne said it looked like Stannis but on my tiny screen it just looked like the shape of a soldier. 

What the hell is Littlefinger up to? Why does he care at all about Margaery now that Renly is dead? I'm racking my brain trying to think what use she would be to him and can come up with nothing. Oh and did you hear that? She doesn't want to be A queen, she wants to be THE queen. Well that's out the window for her now too, no? I just feel like I'm missing something vital in this scene. 

So is this the first we've heard of wildfire? It kinda sounds like it can pretty much kill/destroy/melt anything. I see why Tyrion is worried. They'll end up seeing the entirety of Kings Landing on fire if they aren't careful!

So is Davos pretty much the smartest man in Stannis-camp? Because he's totally got Red-Priestess-of-the-Light's number. I was honestly surprised Stannis seemed to listen to him about not taking her to Kings Landing. He's totally right too. I just don't see how they are going to actually manage to leave her. Ummm guys, did you not see what that smoke thing did? You better watch your backs if you try to leave that woman behind!!

So Theon is planning to attack Robb's men when they show up at Torren Square? Or is he going bigger than that and just doing it to lure the remaining troops out of Winterfell so he can go take it over? That's not very nice, either way Theon. I hope he dies trying if that really is his plan. I don't even want to see poor Robbie's face when he realizes he's been stabbed in the back by Theon.

Jon Snow, the assassin! Go get em, tiger. Just don't think about dying. Hear me, show? You better not kill off my boy! I think next to Tyrion, Snow is my favorite and I'm not even sure why. It's not his pretty so don't even say that. I just find him fascinating. (and I feel like I've said this before so I'll shut up now) Just to be clear, they are going to kill off a former Ranger turned Wildling? Why would he want to stay north of the wall forever?? And what does killing this man gain the Night's Watch? Little lost on that.

Oh Yes! I almost forgot Arya and Dany! Wow so much this episode. Sorry this post is becoming a book. I really should be working too. I do look busy though so there's that. 

Arya and Tywin - I guess that proves that he doesn't know who she is, right? I know there was a lot of debate over that last week. I think he just knew she was from the North. So loved her looking him dead in the face and saying "anyone can be killed, my Lord".... And yay! One of the monsters on her hit list is gone thanks to Jaqen. (had to look that name up, I cannot for the life of me ever remember it!) So he owes her 2 more. I hope she doesn't waste them on fools at Harrenhal but saves them for much greater bastards.

Umm Dany, are you dense, girl? I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Jorah is in love with you. But it was great when you saw the realization of it hit her like a brick as he was saying he can't believe at times that she's real. Is it weird that I'm totally team Jorah here? As much as I liked Drogo, I think Jorah is good for her. Why was it he and his father (Mormont at the wall, right?) are at odds again? I for the life of me can't remember without going to look it up. 

And last but not least, my LOL Tyrion moments of the episode were the following:

Cersei: Arent you always so clever with your schemes and your plots
Tyrion: Schemes and plots are the same thing 

Tyrion: (to Cersei regarding Myrcella): She's a sweet, innocent girl and I don't blame her at all for you

Bronn: There's that mind you keep going on about
Tyrion: Well, I've never been able to actually kill people with it
Bronn: Good thing or I'd be out of a job

And also I loved his face when he realized he was the "evil demon monkey" they were spouting on about. 

Oh and his "even torturing you is boring" to Lancel. Heee! 

So yeah, Dinklage for the win again this episode.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

> Umm Dany, are you dense, girl? I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Jorah is in love with you. But it was great when you saw the realization of it hit her like a brick as he was saying he can't believe at times that she's real. Is it weird that I'm totally team Jorah here? As much as I liked Drogo, I think Jorah is good for her. *Why was it he and his father (Mormont at the wall, right?) are at odds again? *I for the life of me can't remember without going to look it up.


Ser Jorah was involved in some smuggling/poaching thing which is against the laws, so he got banished. I believe that Jorah told Dany the story about his wife, which is related this part of the story. I won't go in detail because I can't remember what is show and what is books.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> Ser Jorah was involved in some smuggling/poaching thing which is against the laws, so he got banished. I believe that Jorah told Dany the story about his wife, which is related this part of the story. I won't go in detail because I can't remember what is show and what is books.


hmmm I don't remember anything about smuggling or his wife. I'll have to skim back through season 1 to find it. I hate to google things like this because I'm so afraid I'm going to read far more than I wanted to know!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I did not get the exchange between Theon and his first mate. They agreed to attack a different place, but then some sort of "understanding" passed between them and I can't figure out what.

So the guy with the funny beard who went to defend against Theon will die.

Why oh why did Arya waste one of her 3 kills on someone who does not matter?

I think Littlefinger has found himself a queen!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> hmmm I don't remember anything about smuggling or his wife. I'll have to skim back through season 1 to find it. I hate to google things like this because I'm so afraid I'm going to read far more than I wanted to know!


Ned caught him selling slaves; which is a big no no. Jorah explained to Dany that he did it because he needed the money since his woman had expensive tastes.

Mormont has disowned him as he is without honor. Jorah chose to run (be banished) rather than have his head chopped off. Jorah also clearly works for the Spider and was clearly do it so he can get a royal pardon.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rickvz said:


> Hard to believe the season is halfway done.


  That just put a damper on my day.



astrohip said:


> As I'm watching each different scene/setting (ie, North of the Wall, King's Landing, Winterfell, Qarth ...), I kept thinking that each one of those is worth an episode by itself. I could watch this show for hours on end . . .


I agree! I never could have imaged being so in love with such a hard core fantasy show but here I am!



heySkippy said:


> Bran. Bron is Tyrion's sellsword.


Funny I don't get them confused but I always forget Bran's name. I don't forget Bronn. Maybe it's because Bronn is always on screen with Tyrion.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I suspect Melisandre knows the price. The question is, does Stannis? *Is he smart enough even to ask?*


I'm going to vote for no.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Ned caught him selling slaves; which is a big no no. Jorah explained to Dany that he did it because he needed the money since his woman had expensive tastes.
> 
> Mormont has disowned him as he is without honor. Jorah chose to run (be banished) rather than have his head chopped off. Jorah also clearly works for the Spider and was clearly do it so he can get a royal pardon.


Okay I don't remember the woman has expensive tastes thing but selling slaves rings a bell.

And I say a big HUH? on him working for Varys. Was that mentioned before?? Now I have to really go back because I think I've forgotten pretty much everything about Jorah prior to him joining up with Dany. He was already with the Dothraki, I do have that part correct, right?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay I don't remember the woman has expensive tastes thing but selling slaves rings a bell.
> 
> And I say a big HUH? on him working for Varys. Was that mentioned before?? Now I have to really go back because I think I've forgotten pretty much everything about Jorah prior to him joining up with Dany. He was already with the Dothraki, I do have that part correct, right?


I recall a scene (just before the attempted assassination on Dany) where he got some mail and it contained a pardon. He then thwarted the attempt on Dany's life. I don't recall the details of the pardon, though. Others here might have better memories.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I did not get the exchange between Theon and his first mate. They agreed to attack a different place, but then some sort of "understanding" passed between them and I can't figure out what.


Theon was whining about what a s#!% detail he drew, and how was he ever going to prove himself with that? The other guy said he couldn't, but that the Ironborn don't do as they're told, they do as they please. That puts the notion in Theon's head to do something else, and he comes up with the plan to attack Robb's castle. The other guy approves of his initiative.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Ned caught him selling slaves; which is a big no no. Jorah explained to Dany that he did it because he needed the money since his woman had expensive tastes.
> 
> Mormont has disowned him as he is without honor. Jorah chose to run (be banished) rather than have his head chopped off. Jorah also clearly works for the Spider and was clearly do it so he can get a royal pardon.


It's easy to miss, but Mormont also gave his sword, Longclaw, which is the ultra rare Valyrian steel, and was destined for Jorah, to John Snow.

An interesting development, since Ice was lost to the Starks when Ned was killed, leaving John Snow the only one of the Stark children to have a Valyrian steel weapon.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> It's easy to miss, *but Mormont also gave his sword, Longclaw, which is the ultra rare Valyrian steel, and was destined for Jorah, to John Snow. *
> 
> An interesting development, since Ice was lost to the Starks when Ned was killed, leaving John Snow the only one of the Stark children to have a Valyrian steel weapon.


Yes, now that I do remember.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I recall a scene (just before the attempted assassination on Dany) where he got some mail and it contained a pardon. He then thwarted the attempt on Dany's life. I don't recall the details of the pardon, though. Others here might have better memories.


Yes, the pardon came at the same time that Varys has the assassination attempt made, so I made a connection between the 2 there. Also, we had other clues. When Jonah found out Dany was pregnant, he said he had to ride to Pentos or some other city. It seemed to me that he had to let someone know. Shortly after, when Arya was in the dungeon hiding behind the dragon skulls and the 2 people were talking, one of those people was Varys, and he was being told by the other that Dany was pregnant. Shortly after that, at the Kings council (or whatever it's called) when they were discussing with Robert that Dany was pregnant, I believe they said Jorah was the source of the info.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Yes, the pardon came at the same time that Varys has the assassination attempt made, so I made a connection between the 2 there. Also, we had other clues. When Jonah found out Dany was pregnant, he said he had to ride to Pentos or some other city. It seemed to me that he had to let someone know. Shortly after, when Arya was in the dungeon hiding behind the dragon skulls and the 2 people were talking, one of those people was Varys, and he was being told by the other that Dany was pregnant. Shortly after that, at the Kings council (or whatever it's called) when they were discussing with Robert that Dany was pregnant, I believe they said Jorah was the source of the info.


The guy talking to Varys was Illyrio, who helped arrange the marriage between Daenerys and Khal Drago and also gifted the dragon eggs to Daenerys.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I recall a scene (just before the attempted assassination on Dany) where he got some mail and it contained a pardon. He then thwarted the attempt on Dany's life. I don't recall the details of the pardon, though. Others here might have better memories.


Remember about midseason one Jorah said he had to go to the coast, and thereafter King's Landing got word that Danys was preggers with the stallion kid.

As good a time as any to say more of the ensemble acting on GoT has been simply outstanding.

Mark Addy as King Robert -*loud, macho, boisterous, ... AFAIK his roles had been the big guy in the background like a Friar Tuck.
The merchant assassin. Nailed it in that scene in the market. You could see his gears grinding as he thought on his feet.
Kahl Drago - He's an American Pacific Islander.
Prince Targareon - Give me my crown!
Ser Davos always giving that side profile as he contemplates.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I guess Smoky may be all evil powerful but he has to be brought nearby. Maybe he can be disintegrated in a stiff wind.

The fire pots are supposed to be Greek Fire. Don't diss clergy that know how to make lotsa weapons.

How about those two vault doors? 1) "Only this key, that any Dothraki could kill me for, will open the door."
2) 7800...
3) Behind this door is the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I wish people would stop referring to the shadow entity as smoke or smokey. It's supposed to be a shadow, so I wish they had made it look more like that. Its' really just semantics but it ties in with the Lord of Light and shadow not existing without light, just as Melisandre stated.

It's hard not to make "smoke monster" comparisons, but don't confuse the two; they have nothing in common.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> Bran. Bron is Tyrion's sellsword.


Actually, Bronn is Tyrion's sellsword.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

audioscience said:


> Actually, Bronn is Tyrion's sellsword.


Actually, Bronn is the Captain of the City Watch.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> hmmm I don't remember anything about smuggling or his wife. I'll have to skim back through season 1 to find it. I hate to google things like this because I'm so afraid I'm going to read far more than I wanted to know!





Anubys said:


> Ned caught him selling slaves; which is a big no no. Jorah explained to Dany that he did it because he needed the money since his woman had expensive tastes.
> 
> Mormont has disowned him as he is without honor. Jorah chose to run (be banished) rather than have his head chopped off. Jorah also clearly works for the Spider and was clearly do it so he can get a royal pardon.


Just to clear this up, Jorah was lord of Bear Island and was a bannerman to Winterfell. He caught some poachers on his land and chose to sell them off as slaves rather than kill them, or whatever the other choice was. Slave selling is illegal in Westoros, so Ned Stark was going to take his head I believe. Instead of that or going to the wall, Jorah decided to flee and go into exile. That wasn't a choice that anyone game him, it was a choice he made to escape "justice."


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> What the hell is Littlefinger up to? Why does he care at all about Margaery now that Renly is dead? I'm racking my brain trying to think what use she would be to him and can come up with nothing. Oh and did you hear that? She doesn't want to be A queen, she wants to be THE queen. Well that's out the window for her now too, no? I just feel like I'm missing something vital in this scene.


Maybe. Her marriage to Renly was apparently not consummated. She comes from a wealthy family, the Tyrell. Not Lannister wealthy, but very well off.



Spoiler



Do you know any royalty that is short on cash?



-Bob


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

So now the Ironthrone doesn't have money problems? seems weird they wouldn't since they did have problems AND they are now in war/wars.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

We know his son Jorah fled from Westeros rather than receive the Stark capital punishment for selling slaves and that he was disowned by his father Jeor. We also know he has received a king's pardon for notifying the court at King's Landing that Daenerys was pregnant.

But why is Jeor Mormont Lord Commander of the Night Watch? We are often told that anyone banished to wall is sent when they have no other choices or as punishment. By taking the vows of the Night Watch, they give up all family and possessions.

Besides the sword that he gave to Jon Snow, what does Jeor have to NOT give to Jorah? How can you disown someone when you own nothing?

-Bob


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> Actually, Bronn is the Captain of the City Watch.


Well, since were correcting everyone, I believe Bronn is actually the *Commander* of the City Watch.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pmyers said:


> I swear the black guy of the #13's last name was "Ducksauce". That's what it sounded to me.


I can no longer see that character without calling him Ducksauce.

Thanks a lot.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

pmyers said:


> So now the Ironthrone doesn't have money problems? seems weird they wouldn't since they did have problems AND they are now in war/wars.


What's yer point? You want to raise taxes on the job creators? 

I think we can take it as the Bank of Lanister foreclosed on Westeros.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Wow, that was pretty good. I had accidentally learned earlier this week that Renley died in the books, so I knew it was coming, and I put 2 + 2 together and figured it would be the smoke monster, but that was way better than I expected. However, my understanding was that in the book Renley died in a differenent way. Could someone please mention (in spoilers) 1) how Renley dies in the book, and 2) what was the purpose of the smoke monster in the book?


No need to spoilerize. The show is accurate the book regarding Renly's death. As for the follow-up question, so far the show is following the books.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lars_J said:


> No need to spoilerize. The show is accurate the book regarding Renly's death. As for the follow-up question, so far the show is following the books.


I was told that


Spoiler



Renley was killed BEFORE Melissandre is brought to shore by Ser Davos.



If that was correct, then I was wondering how Renley was actually killed. Also, if correct, then I may want to withdraw my 2nd question, as it may give away something still to come in the show


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I wish people would stop referring to the shadow entity as smoke or smokey. It's supposed to be a shadow, so I wish they had made it look more like that. Its' really just semantics but it ties in with the Lord of Light and shadow not existing without light, just as Melisandre stated.
> 
> It's hard not to make "smoke monster" comparisons, but don't confuse the two; they have nothing in common.


I wish that people who have story knowlege based on reading the books would stop wishing that _TV viewers_ stop making comments based on what they are able to learn from the _TV series_.

If key plot elements are not made clear on the _TV series_, it's a failure on the part of the _TV series_ scriptwriters, directors and producers


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

astrohip said:


> I can no longer see that character without calling him Ducksauce.
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Sorry about that. I swear it sounds just like that!


----------



## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I was told that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



That's because there were two shadow assassins in the book. Renly is killed by the first, Davos observes the birth of the second (who goes on to kill someone else, a remaining Renly ally). The show wisely combined both events, as the other killed character was minor and cut from the show.

But really, why does it matter? Just enjoy the show, don't worry about what is and is not in the books.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I was told that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Edited to spoiler. Not really a spoiler but the folks around here  ...



Spoiler



She releases the shadow/smoke monster twice. Once to kill Renly (in the book this is before we know where it came from and the second time one day later to kill a lord who was under Renly but refused to cede to Stannis. It is this second encounter where Davos is entrusted to take her ashore to "release the beast." In the show they combined this as one death/release, because it is not important to the whole story that the Lord is killed afterward.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Lars_J said:


> But really, why does it matter? Just enjoy the show, don't worry about what is and is not in the books.


It doesn't matter. I just find it interesting to know how books differ from TV/movies.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

netringer said:


> What's yer point? You want to raise taxes on the job creators?
> 
> I think we can take it as the Bank of Lanister foreclosed on Westeros.


It just struck me as strange since Tyrion made a comment about "outspending him 3 to 1". I thought they still had money troubles.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Lars_J said:


> No need to spoilerize. The show is accurate the book regarding Renly's death. As for the follow-up question, so far the show is following the books.


Not entirely.



Spoiler



"steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. he had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat". - Clash of Kings Page 502

That description make it sound like a downward hacking kind of strike at the neck and shoulder. Not the being run through by a sword attack we saw in the episode.

Renley was still in armor if he had on a gorget.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

pmyers said:


> It just struck me as strange since Tyrion made a comment about "outspending him 3 to 1". I thought they still had money troubles.


As King Robert said, "I'm half a kingdom in debt..." but Tyrion is talking Lannister money, right?

BTW, how did the Lannisters make all of that money?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Who is the woman in the gold mask/veil that warned Jorah in Qarth? Will we see her again?


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


When I read the first 4 books, I didnt even know GOT was going to be on HBO, so the damage was done long ago.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


That's why I didn't start the 2nd book until the series started, and I'm trying to keep my reading at or slightly behind the show.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Legion said:


> When I read the first 4 books, I didnt even know GOT was going to be on HBO, so the damage was done long ago.


Oh I didn't mean to imply it was done on purpose for everyone. 



allan said:


> That's why I didn't start the 2nd book until the series started, and I'm trying to keep my reading at or slightly behind the show.


Yeah I think I'm going to save mine until after the series wraps up and then maybe read and watch again while doing so.


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

Legion said:


> When I read the first 4 books, I didnt even know GOT was going to be on HBO, so the damage was done long ago.


For me, it was the show that caused me to read the 1st book. I was confused by all the characters and thought reading the book would help. My plan was to only read up to point we were at in the show.

But once I got started I couldn't stop. I powered through all of the books and really wish I hadn't.

You are right, it would be more fun to not know what is going to happen!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

lodica1967 said:


> You are right, it would be more fun to not know what is going to happen!


Me too, which is why I'm glad I read the books first...having the show spoil the books would totally ruin it for me!


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


It's about the execution (no pun intended). I knew Ned Stark was going to die, before the first episode aired last season. Yet the story was well told, and interesting, and yes, I didn't have to stand up and shout to the heavens when I saw it, because I'd already done that years before when I read it, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it.

I knew that Frodo was going to make it to Mordor, too. Didn't stop me from enjoying the movies.

(Plus, it's kind of fun to see the little hints and know what they portend. To understand Brans dream, for instance, or to know what Theon is going to do, and to see how the show creators portray that and foreshadow it).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> As King Robert said, "I'm half a kingdom in debt..." but Tyrion is talking Lannister money, right?
> 
> BTW, how did the Lannisters make all of that money?


Yes, I'm fairly certain the show indicated at one point they they were borrowing from the lannisters. And I don't believe the show has explained the lannisters wealth, but some of the book readers have explained in previous threads that the lands owned by the lannisters are very mineral rich.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Me too, which is why I'm glad I read the books first...having the show spoil the books would totally ruin it for me!


I thought of that angle too. But, IMO, some things, including Renley's death and that of Ned Stark (though that one got spoiled for me anyway  ), have more impact on the TV (if done right, which they were).


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


Well, as I said, I actually had Renly's death spoiled for me earlier in the week. And while it obviously took away the shock since I knew it was coming, I still did say "OMG" and rewind it to watch it again a few times.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> Well, as I said, I actually had Renly's death spoiled for me earlier in the week. And while it obviously took away the shock since I knew it was coming, I still did say "OMG" and rewind it to watch it again a few times.


Yeah, I guess I'm not so much a spoiler nazi as much as a huge event spoiler nazi. I don't mind knowing small details but things like this, Ned and poor Lady being killed hit me much harder than had I known. That's just me, many shows I read spoiler threads on and like to know what's coming up. I'm not sure why some I do and some I don't.


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

I guess for me it doesn't bother me much knowing it's coming up, because I already had the effect from reading the book. And I have to admit, I've had times that I've sat there swearing at the book after things happened .

Hmm, pondered putting this in without spoilering it, but there's probably people that would get annoyed. There's no specific spoiler information in what's below, more of a generic comment on the topic of death in this show.



Spoiler



I do think for those that have played the book you could play a great drinking game. Every time someone comes on screen that is going to die, you take a drink. Not sure anyone would ever make it through an episode though .


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> I thought of that angle too. But, IMO, some things, including Renly's death and that of Ned Stark (though that one got spoiled for me anyway  ), have more impact on the TV (if done right, which they were).


I think events like that have a LOT more impact in the books, because Martin spends a LOT more time building up to them.

E.g., Ned in the TV show was a lot more of a cypher. In the books, he's a much more fully-realized character, and his death had (I think) a lot more impact than it would have if all I knew about him was what the TV show gave us.


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think events like that have a LOT more impact in the books, because Martin spends a LOT more time building up to them.
> 
> E.g., Ned in the TV show was a lot more of a cypher. In the books, he's a much more fully-realized character, and his death had (I think) a lot more impact than it would have if all I knew about him was what the TV show gave us.


Yeah, I'll have to agree with Rob's comments too. The pay-off in the books is awfully good because there's more invested in the characters up to that point. In the series, if Ned hadn't been played by "arguably" the biggest name in the acting cast, I don't know that it would have had quite the effect that it did on people.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gschrock said:


> Yeah, I'll have to agree with Rob's comments too. The pay-off in the books is awfully good because there's more invested in the characters up to that point. In the series, if Ned hadn't been played by "arguably" the biggest name in the acting cast, I don't know that it would have had quite the effect that it did on people.


Well I dunno about it having more or less but I can say for me, not knowing he was the biggest name in the acting cast, I was floored when they killed him. I mean literally draw dropped and hands to face like a drooling idiot, floored. Even the movies Bean has been in that I've seen he didn't make a big enough impact that I remembered his face when I started this show. Honestly the only person I did recognize was Dinklage.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm going to be bummed when/if Bran's dream comes true and Theon takes winterfell. The Starks are too righteous for their own good.

The treatment of this series makes me sad for the mess that was the Sword of Truth series.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


I looked forward to that scene all week after seeing the end of the previous episode. I'm not sure which is more fun, watching the realization of the various big events or reading the speculation by users here knowing what is likely. Last year I suspected the ending scene would be the birth of the dragons and still found the scene riveting. I'm really looking forward to what I suspect will happen in the final episode of this season.



lodica1967 said:


> For me, it was the show that caused me to read the 1st book. I was confused by all the characters and thought reading the book would help. My plan was to only read up to point we were at in the show.
> 
> But once I got started I couldn't stop.


Same here. After a few episodes I picked up the first book and read through it quickly. Then couldn't stop once I started.



Ereth said:


> It's about the execution (no pun intended). I knew Ned Stark was going to die, before the first episode aired last season. Yet the story was well told, and interesting, and yes, I didn't have to stand up and shout to the heavens when I saw it, because I'd already done that years before when I read it, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it.
> 
> I knew that Frodo was going to make it to Mordor, too. Didn't stop me from enjoying the movies.
> 
> (Plus, it's kind of fun to see the little hints and know what they portend. To understand Brans dream, for instance, or to know what Theon is going to do, and to see how the show creators portray that and foreshadow it).


One recap I read of last week's episode stated an opinion that the strongest scenes were those that followed the books pretty closely and the weaker scenes (certainly a relative term) were those that were not from the books or that directly changed something from the books. I would agree.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

If Margery Tyrell (Mrs. Renly Bartheron) is keen on becoming Queen I wonder if she is going back to Kings Landing with Baelish to you know...get up on Joffrey.

This would not be good news for Sansa.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> If Margery Tyrell (Mrs. Renly Bartheron) is keen on becoming Queen I wonder if she is going back to Kings Landing with Baelish to you know...get up on Joffrey.
> 
> This would not be good news for Sansa.


Given Joffrey's...proclivities, that would be EXCELLENT news for Sansa!


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Given Joffrey's...proclivities, that would be EXCELLENT news for Sansa!


Well sure but she would have to sneak out of King's Landing. Not sure how easy that is for her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> Well sure but she would have to sneak out of King's Landing. Not sure how easy that is for her.


Gotta be easier than being Joffrey's legal sex-slave! Or at least have a much higher chance of survival...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

bobino said:


> We know his son Jorah fled from Westeros rather than receive the Stark capital punishment for selling slaves and that he was disowned by his father Jeor. We also know he has received a king's pardon for notifying the court at King's Landing that Daenerys was pregnant.
> 
> But why is Jeor Mormont Lord Commander of the Night Watch? We are often told that anyone banished to wall is sent when they have no other choices or as punishment. By taking the vows of the Night Watch, they give up all family and possessions.
> 
> ...


You don't have to be a thief to join. You can be the younger brother who will inherit nothing (Ned's brother, for example), or the bastard son (Jon Snow), or just too poor to have any prospects.

I'm going to wait on reading the series. I can enjoy a book (The Godfather and Jurassic Park come to mind) after watching the movie. I don't think I can do the opposite.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> If Margery Tyrell (Mrs. Renly Bartheron) is keen on becoming Queen I wonder if she is going back to Kings Landing with Baelish to you know...get up on Joffrey.
> 
> This would not be good news for Sansa.


I really think Littlefinger is the one who will go for her. He does want to rule, eventually/somehow, and she has the money and the ambition.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> You don't have to be a thief to join. You can be the younger brother who will inherit nothing (Ned's brother, for example), or the bastard son (Jon Snow), or just too poor to have any prospects.


Yeah, back in the good old days it was a noble profession. Now, you pretty much have to be a loser to join (or be conscripted). But they'll take all kinds of losers!


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## Roommate (Apr 23, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.





Rickvz said:


> I looked forward to that scene all week after seeing the end of the previous episode. I'm not sure which is more fun, watching the realization of the various big events or reading the speculation by users here knowing what is likely. Last year I suspected the ending scene would be the birth of the dragons and still found the scene riveting. I'm really looking forward to what I suspect will happen in the final episode of this season.


There are definite pluses and minuses to both approaches. I read the books before the show was announced, so didn't have a choice - but "disappointed" is a word that's never crossed my mind when watching this show.  Honestly I can't imagine what it's like for someone who hasn't read the books to watch it. There are so many little details that it would be probably impossible to pick up on if you weren't familiar with the source material. Plus, the foreshadowing just makes me squee like a little girl. 

The best approach might be to watch a season, read the book, then watch the season again. The problem with that, as others have mentioned, is that it's tough to finish one book without immediately picking up the next one!


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Roommate said:


> The best approach might be to watch a season, read the book, then watch the season again. The problem with that, as others have mentioned, is that it's tough to finish one book without immediately picking up the next one!


I believe that as of this season there is no longer a 1 book per season correlation


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

Legion said:


> Not entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats, you win the "inconsequential nitpick of the day" prize.


Spoiler



Ooooh - knifed through the chest instead of throat. Are you for real?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Wow, that was pretty good. I had accidentally learned earlier this week that Renley died in the books, so I knew it was coming, and I put 2 + 2 together and figured it would be the smoke monster, but that was way better than I expected. However, my understanding was that in the book Renley died in a differenent way. Could someone please mention (in spoilers) 1) how Renley dies in the book, and 2) what was the purpose of the smoke monster in the book?


It didn't happen a "different way", really, though the smoke monster is more a living shadow in the book.

The difference was that in the book, Renly's death is not preceded by Davos taking Melisandre in the boat to give birth to the shadow.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, GRRM screwed up originally, and now had a chance to fix the timeline.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

zordude said:


> I believe that as of this season there is no longer a 1 book per season correlation


I doubt that. I think this season will end right on target for book two. Season three will be similar (but hopefully will have more episodes). And after that they'll start combining books because 4 and 5 take place at the same time for the most part. Unless they do the same thing and divvy up the story lines on a per season basis.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Well, GRRM screwed up originally, and now had a chance to fix the timeline.


How so?


audioscience said:


> I doubt that. I think this season will end right on target for book two. Season three will be similar (but hopefully will have more episodes). And after that they'll start combining books because 4 and 5 take place at the same time for the most part. Unless they do the same thing and divvy up the story lines on a per season basis.


You're right about this season, but apparently the one-to-one ratio will end here. The third book is just too much for one season.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Well, GRRM screwed up originally, and now had a chance to fix the timeline.


How so? In the book, Renly's death was more shocking, since you didn't know the living shadow existed.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> It didn't happen a "different way", really, though the smoke monster is more a living shadow in the book.
> 
> The difference was that in the book, Renly's death is not preceded by Davos taking Melisandre in the boat to give birth to the shadow.


That's something I didn't remember (the birth scene after Renly's death), but it makes sense since


Spoiler



in the book they had to get inside the walls of Storms End to take care of the castellan.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> How so?
> 
> You're right about this season, but apparently the one-to-one ratio will end here. The third book is just too much for one season.


Yeah, I agree with that. Which is why I was just hoping for more episodes in season 3. They could probably split book 3 into two seasons.

Book 3 is my favorite. It's so kick-ass! I can't wait for it actually. Y'all non-book readers need to get excited about it. I'm sure it'll be awesome!


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I was disappointed that Dany didn't dress in the style of the Qartheen women as described in the book.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Book talk doesn't belong in the clear in this thread.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I just rewatched the episode. One of my favorite parts was Brienne making her vows to protect Lady Stark. That was a just a great scene and a great moment. It was very exciting and full of promise.

For the book readers, there are a few points I wanted to touch on. First on Arya and Jaqen:



Spoiler



In the books, Arya has someone else killed for her first kill. SHE personally kills the tickler in book 3 along with Polliver (by the Hound). Again I'm sure it is to compress the number of recognizable characters in the show but it was a bit disappointing. Who will we see killed by Arya herself?



And then on Bran in Winterfell:



Spoiler



I'm disappointed we haven't seen Jojen and Meera Reed yet. At this point it feels like they are going to skip over them, unless they meet them in the woods or the swap when they flee. In this episode it seems that Osha is taking the place of Jojen in regards to knowing things and knowing about Bran's dreams.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rickvz said:


> I was disappointed that Dany didn't dress in the style of the Qartheen women as described in the book.


 :up:


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

audioscience said:


> And then on Bran in Winterfell:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I'll be greatly disappointed if they leave them out. It would also mean that Rickon will probably accompany them them to The Wall and beyond


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Didn't someone say in an interview that each season would not be equal to a single book? If that's true then they can make however many seasons they want from each book.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

In my opinion, they'd almost have to follow book two for season two because it ends on some pretty big stuff. Most the books do because GRRM knows how to leave you hanging.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be greatly disappointed if they leave them out. It would also mean that Rickon will probably accompany them them to The Wall and beyond





Spoiler



Yeah. I guess there is still time in the next episode to introduce them, before Theon gets there...


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

gschrock said:


> I guess for me it doesn't bother me much knowing it's coming up, because I already had the effect from reading the book. And I have to admit, I've had times that I've sat there swearing at the book after things happened .
> 
> Hmm, pondered putting this in without spoilering it, but there's probably people that would get annoyed. There's no specific spoiler information in what's below, more of a generic comment on the topic of death in this show.
> 
> ...


This is how I feel, and there are times reading the book where I had to put it down and sit there in shock and disbelief. I still enjoy seeing the events played out though.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

The soap box guy is lucky that none of King Jeffy's minions heard him. They'd cut out his tongue and then start hurting him.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Here is what I recall from an interview with the showrunners (not spoilers, just season/book relationships):

This season will be Book Two. But starting next year, they no longer feel the need to be tied book=season. They intend to use two seasons to cover Book Three, and additionally, if they see the need to move certain story points around, they will. IOW, if something from Book Four makes sense to cover in Season Three, they will.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

How do the Qartheen women dress in the book? I assume it is naked-ish based on the response, but yet I ask.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Tracy said:


> How do the Qartheen women dress in the book? I assume it is naked-ish based on the response, but yet I ask.


They basically have one breast uncovered. Big opportunity lost HBO!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

A typical GoT thread. Starts out talking about the TV show then dissolves into spoilers and non-spoilers about the books.

Can't we just talk about the TV show in a TV forum? The book talk makes a jumble out of the whole thing and makes my head hurt.

I guess I will no longer even open a GoT thread anymore. They are just a waste of time...


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JFriday said:


> This is how I feel, and there are times reading the book where I had to put it down and sit there in shock and disbelief. I still enjoy seeing the events played out though.


Ditto. It's fun to see how well they play things out from the books. The book in and of themselves are amazing. There are definitely lots of shockers that have you sitting there going, WHAT?!?!. More so than any other book or series I have read.

I'm usually a watch the show first/ read the book later kind of guy but I'm glad I've read the books beforehand as the stories are so rich and complicated.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> A typical GoT thread. Starts out talking about the TV show then dissolves into spoilers and non-spoilers about the books.
> 
> Can't we just talk about the TV show in a TV forum? The book talk makes a jumble out of the whole thing and makes my head hurt.
> 
> I guess I will no longer even open a GoT thread anymore. They are just a waste of time...


It's inevitable with a series of this size that's based on such notable books that you're going to get some crossover.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TonyD79 said:


> A typical GoT thread. Starts out talking about the TV show then dissolves into spoilers and non-spoilers about the books.
> 
> Can't we just talk about the TV show in a TV forum? The book talk makes a jumble out of the whole thing and makes my head hurt.
> 
> I guess I will no longer even open a GoT thread anymore. They are just a waste of time...


But there are no spoilers that are visible. I've resigned myself to just having to deal with it and resist the temptation to read them because of how awesome moments like Renly's death are for me not having any clue it's coming.

Plus some people **coughcoughmecough** have a lot to say! Don't not converse with me over the show because others are referring to the book. 
(and frankly other than a few spoilers all book talk in here has been legitimate talk I thought)


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> They basically have one breast uncovered. Big opportunity lost HBO!


I was surprised, there was no nudity in this episode. Is that a first?!?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I've heard that there is a thread somewhere for book readers, but the only one I found, no one was posting on. Last season I hadn't read the books and liked having those who had here to set us straight on things that were in the episode but hard to pick up. Plus I like the long thread better than 2 short ones.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> A typical GoT thread. Starts out talking about the TV show then dissolves into spoilers and non-spoilers about the books.
> 
> Can't we just talk about the TV show in a TV forum? The book talk makes a jumble out of the whole thing and makes my head hurt.
> 
> I guess I will no longer even open a GoT thread anymore. They are just a waste of time...


I agree... keep the book discussion out of the TV show thread. It's like there are two threads mixed together here.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

And I'm the one that got called out about being a spoiler nazi!


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I've heard that there is a thread somewhere for book readers, but the only one I found, no one was posting on. Last season I hadn't read the books and liked having those who had here to set us straight on things that were in the episode but hard to pick up. Plus I like the long thread better than 2 short ones.


 http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468391 is the thread that was intended for allowing book discussion. It is in the Happy Hour section.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rickvz said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468391 is the thread that was intended for allowing book discussion. It is in the Happy Hour section.


Except it's not appropriate unless you've read all the books, which many haven't, including myself.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

audioscience said:


> Except it's not appropriate unless you've read all the books, which many haven't, including myself.


So then you should appreciate those of us who HAVEN'T READ ANY OF THE BOOKS.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> So then you should appreciate those of us who HAVEN'T READ ANY OF THE BOOKS.


:up:


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> So then you should appreciate those of us who HAVEN'T READ ANY OF THE BOOKS.


That's why there is a spoiler tag... :up:

Enough of the thread derailment. Why don't we discuss the show?


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't understand how those that have read the books aren't disappointed watching the show, knowing everything that's coming. If I had known that Renly was bout to bite it and how he would die, I think it would have taken all the awesome impact of it for me. Maybe it's just me.


It's exciting to see how what I read is interpreted on the show. And a friend of mine was telling me he watches with a checklist in mind. Has this happened - check; is Arya saying this - check; did Bran do this - check. We compare notes every Monday morning; he's got an excellent recall of the books and can point out variances that I don't even pick up on.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I've now watched the whole episode three times and some scenes even more. The Arya scenes seem to get better every time I watch. The stare at the end with Tywin and the conversation with Jaquen are riveting. When I started this thread I thought I was halfway through the episode only to see that it was already 9:50. I can't wait for the next episode, and yet I am afraid it will also be over too soon.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rickvz said:


> I've now watched the whole episode three times and some scenes even more. The Arya scenes seem to get better every time I watch. The stare at the end with Tywin and the conversation with Jaquen are riveting. When I started this thread I thought I was halfway through the episode only to see that it was already 9:50. I can't wait for the next episode, and yet I am afraid it will also be over too soon.


I agree. That was a really great scene. Well done by the actress who plays Arya. She's getting good.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> They basically have one breast uncovered. Big opportunity lost HBO!


We gotta know! _Left or right?_


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rickvz said:


> I've now watched the whole episode three times and some scenes even more. The Arya scenes seem to get better every time I watch. The stare at the end with Tywin and the conversation with Jaquen are riveting. When I started this thread I thought I was halfway through the episode only to see that it was already 9:50. I can't wait for the next episode, and yet I am afraid it will also be over too soon.


Can we guess whether Arya's hit list ends with Tywin or Jeffy? It's gotta be one she was memorizing.

Brother Robb may be close.

BTW, why did Jaquen say he owes her 3 deaths? Because she saved the three? What happened to the maniac?

What about him led the Lannisters to suit him up for their army?


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

netringer said:


> BTW, why did Jaquen say he owes her 3 deaths? Because she saved the three? What happened to the maniac?


Yes, because she saved three lives. He said three lives were due to the Red God and she took them from him, so she has to give them back.

We haven't seen the other two I don't believe.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> Brother Robb may be close.


Close how?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Close how?


Close to Arya, geographically, perhaps?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Close to Arya, geographically, perhaps?


Okay that would make more sense. I read it as close to being her next choice. I was all


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Okay that would make more sense. I read it as close to being her next choice. I was all


That's what I thought as well. Then I thought they got the wrong name.

geography is probably a better guess, though!


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

netringer said:


> Can we guess whether Arya's hit list ends with Tywin or Jeffy? It's gotta be one she was memorizing.


Goeffery I can see as being #1 on her hit list, Tywin, not so much, yes, he is the scion of the family that has caused hers much pain, but he is treating her honorably, even if he doesn't know who she really is.



netringer said:


> BTW, why did Jaquen say he owes her 3 deaths? Because she saved the three? What happened to the maniac?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jaquen's gods are neither the "Old or new" gods, but the same god as that Mellisande is a priestess of, right? BTW Is there a time frame that she has to "pay back" those 3 deaths by? Will that god "foreclose" on her (and/or Jaquen) if she doesn't pay up?



netringer said:


> What about him led the Lannisters to suit him up for their army?


2 Words: Cannon Fodder (OK, since it is a pre-gunpowder fantasy world "Spear Fodder"). Remember the Lannister army is getting their butts kicked by Robb, and front line soldiers are pretty much expendable.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tiassa said:


> Goeffery I can see as being #1 on her hit list, Tywin, not so much, yes, he is the scion of the family that has caused hers much pain, but he is treating her honorably, even if he doesn't know who she is


Joffrey might be number 1 but when will he ever have the opportunity to carry that out??


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

tiassa said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jaquen's gods are neither the "Old or new" gods, but the same god as that Mellisande is a priestess of, right? BTW Is there a time frame that she has to "pay back" those 3 deaths by? Will that god "foreclose" on her (and/or Jaquen) if she doesn't pay up?


Yes, same god.



photoshopgrl said:


> Joffrey might be number 1 but when will he ever have the opportunity to carry that out??


Concerning Jaqen H'ghar, I like to think of the Transformers motto,



Spoiler



there is more to him than meets the eye.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Close how?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Close to Arya, geographically, perhaps?


Yeah. I meant that Robb's army and Grey Wolf seemed to be right behind the Lannister camp that raided and took Arya and Gendry.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Concerning Jaqen H'ghar, I like to think of the Transformers motto,
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



If he turns into a crappy bloated yellow Camaro, I'm out!


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I can't even read my email without being spoiled because of people who have read the book constantly posting spoilers in this thread. When spoilers are quoted there is no indication whatsoever in my email or when reading on my phone that what is being quoted is a spoiler.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tiams said:


> I can't even read my email without being spoiled because of people who have read the book constantly posting spoilers in this thread. When spoilers are quoted there is no indication whatsoever in my email or when reading on my phone that what is being quoted is a spoiler.


Just be like me and turn off notifications because you are on this site so often they aren't needed anyhooo.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tiassa said:


> 2 Words: Cannon Fodder (OK, since it is a pre-gunpowder fantasy world "Spear Fodder").


How about "Trebuchet (i.e. catapult) Fodder"?


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

tiams said:


> I can't even read my email without being spoiled because of people who have read the book constantly posting spoilers in this thread. When spoilers are quoted there is no indication whatsoever in my email or when reading on my phone that what is being quoted is a spoiler.


You could turn off email notifications for this thread and then make a point of not checking it while on your phone.

edit: ooops. What photoshopgrl said.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shaunnick said:


> Yes, same god.
> 
> Concerning Jaqen H'ghar, I like to think of the Transformers motto,
> 
> ...


On your spoiler comment, I assumed this because....



Spoiler



All the people going nuts about him when we first saw him on screen. It was kind of a give away he might be a character of importance later and not just some one off minor character for that episode


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Yes, same god.


No. He doesnt follow the red god. He simply referred to him...."the red god is owed....".



Spoiler



Jaqen is one of the Faceless Men. The FM are followers of the many faced god. Who is tied to the Stranger from the "New" gods.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Faceless_Men


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

photoshopgrl said:


> Joffrey might be number 1 but when will he ever have the opportunity to carry that out??


That's why I asked if there is a time limit on the debt, if the Red God is a patient sort then he might be willing to wait for Goffrey, otherwise Arya might need to come up with a more immediate victim.

I'm guessing that Jaqen is going to end up being victim #3, but that's jsut a feeling I have.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> That's why I asked if there is a time limit on the debt, if the Red God is a patient sort then he might be willing to wait for Goffrey, otherwise Arya might need to come up with a more immediate victim.
> 
> I'm guessing that Jaqen is going to end up being victim #3, but that's jsut a feeling I have.


So Arya will ask him to kill himself?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

tiams said:


> I can't even read my email without being spoiled because of people who have read the book constantly posting spoilers in this thread. When spoilers are quoted there is no indication whatsoever in my email or when reading on my phone that what is being quoted is a spoiler.


What phone do you have? There is an Android app, ForumRunner, that works great with this forum and does not show spoilers. Not sure if there is a version for iPhone or not.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rickvz said:


> What phone do you have? There is an Android app, Tapatalk, that works great with this forum and does not show spoilers. Not sure if there is a version for iPhone or not.


That won't help with email.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I suggest that people who have read the book and can't resist talking about it make a seperate thread for each episode. It seems that would be much more enjoyable for them anyway. They could talk freely and anyone who hasn't read the books and wants to read the spoilers could do so.


Why inconvenience every person who either reads on their phone or subscribes to threads and gets email notifications? 
Every other post is a spoiler in these threads and it is inconsiderate. 

Plus, book readers have on many occasions posted non-tv information without spoiler tags.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

tiams said:


> Every other post is a spoiler in these threads and it is inconsiderate.
> 
> Plus, book readers have on many occasions posted non-tv information without spoiler tags.


I agree, but it won't do any good. Some people just can't help themselves and some people just don't care.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Change the notification to "no email" for this and other threads. Problem solved.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> Change the notification to "no email" for this and other threads. Problem solved.


These threads would be WAY better if people would just leave the books completely out of the conversation (and I say that as someone who's read all the books).


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> These threads would be WAY better if people would just leave the books completely out of the conversation (and I say that as someone who's read all the books).


I agree 100% with you (I've read some but not all of the books yet). I was just letting people know (not necessarily you, old-timer ) that they don't HAVE to get an email notification.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I have NOT read the books, and I find some of the posts from those who have read the book to be invaluable. They have, on many occasions, provided valuable additional info that has been left out of the show. I feel I have a much greater appreciation of the show because I understand all the back story so much better. I would hate to shoo all of those posters away to a thread of their own.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I have NOT read the books, and I find some of the posts from those who have read the book to be invaluable. They have, on many occasions, provided valuable additional info that has been left out of the show. I feel I have a much greater appreciation of the show because I understand all the back story so much better. I would hate to shoo all of those posters away to a thread of their own.


I tend to agree. I guess I'm kind of for and against spoilers in this thread. I have no technical issues because I don't have notifications and my phone and iPad both user ForumRunner so spoilers work with it. I just hate the temptation.....but then I'll turn around and ask a question of someone that's read the book.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Rickvz said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468391 is the thread that was intended for allowing book discussion. It is in the Happy Hour section.


Someone mentioned this before, so I went to check it out--no one has posted on it since 2011 unless I'm in the wrong place.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Someone mentioned this before, so I went to check it out--no one has posted on it since 2011 unless I'm in the wrong place.


You must have missed the last few pages.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Someone mentioned this before, so I went to check it out--no one has posted on it since 2011 unless I'm in the wrong place.


I've started using it again since it's obvious book discussion isn't welcome here even if tagged properly and well within the rules of the forum.

Instead of worrying about spoilers so much, people should be concerned with posters who act like they've never read the books when it's pretty obvious they have.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm more concerned with people posting to complain that others are using the forum properly by using the spoiler tag, when they themselves have not even posted to said thread and have not added to the discussion. They've only posted to complain, clog up the thread and derail the fun discussion that is at hand and that others are clearly using and enjoying.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cherry ghost said:


> Instead of worrying about spoilers so much, people should be concerned with posters who act like they've never read the books when it's pretty obvious they have.


 Why would someone do that?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> Why would someone do that?


Because they want others to think they're smart. I really don't get it. It was a real big problem on the TWOP forums last season (I haven't checked this season, that part of it soured me) but of course pointing out things that are obviously someone that's read the book basically spoils it for newbies, so they're all unwittingly tainted.

Discussion might be difficult, but I'm a big fan of the AVClub. And they have a newbie review http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-ghost-of-harrenhal-for-newbies,72795/ and the comments are pretty good. (as in "experts" are yelled at) I enjoy reading the comments cause I love to see what you guys pick up on and your theories.

Hell, even the expert thread (written by Todd VanDerWerff, whom I consider to be the best critic) http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-ghost-of-harrenhal-for-experts,72794/ doesn't have spoilers in it until the very end. But obviously, I'd stay out of the comment section.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Aniketos said:


> Because they want others to think they're smart.


Well that's just ridiculous. Part of the fun of NOT reading the books for me and talking on here is to see just how much of it I can grasp the first run versus how much of it I have to go find on the HBO site. A lot of times, I'll know what I'm talking about but can't remember names or places so that site is awesome.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I'm more concerned with people posting to complain that others are using the forum properly by using the spoiler tag, when they themselves have not even posted to said thread and have not added to the discussion. They've only posted to complain, clog up the thread and derail the fun discussion that is at hand and that others are clearly using and enjoying.


Right. Cause we should all shut up and play by your rules. Got it. Your enjoyment important. Mine not.

And thank you for telling us that you have to post to use this forum. Again. Your rules.

Fact is, by the time I see the episode, there are usually 6 or more pages of posts and I like reading them. If they were about the SHOW.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Right. Cause we should all shut up and play by your rules. Got it. Your enjoyment important. Mine not.
> 
> And thank you for telling us that you have to post to use this forum. Again. Your rules.
> 
> Fact is, by the time I see the episode, there are usually 6 or more pages of posts and I like reading them. If they were about the SHOW.


Not his rules. It's the forum rules. Information from outside of the show is allowed, but must be included in spoiler tags. If anyone is trying to make up their own rules it would be you. It's really not that hard to skim past spoiler tagged posts. Most people obey the rules and spoiler tag anything that needs to be. There are a few cases were people post stuff that technically should be spoiler tagged but don't really bother anyone but the spoiler nazis. I don't really see that it hurts anyone much, but it is a violation, so you'd be right to call out specific cases like that if you want. Cases of actual, legitimate spoilers are actually pretty rare here.

So to reiterate, the forum rules are already established. Don't try to rewrite them unless you want this thread to be 6 pages of arguing about the rules.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

TonyD79 said:


> Right. Cause we should all shut up and play by your rules. Got it. Your enjoyment important. Mine not.


Is your nickname Dolorous Tony?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> So Arya will ask him to kill himself?


No, he will get killed shortly after he gets #2, perhaps by #2 or perhaps by someone defending #2. Remember the Red god only wants 3 lives, no where is it said that one of them can't be Jaqen (who was one of the lives "Saved" by Arya). This could be the Westeros version of "Final Destination".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Aniketos said:


> Because they want others to think they're smart. I really don't get it. It was a real big problem on the TWOP forums last season (I haven't checked this season, that part of it soured me) but of course pointing out things that are obviously someone that's read the book basically spoils it for newbies, so they're all unwittingly tainted.


argh...I'm dying to know who you think is doing that but, as you say, that would be a spoiler since we would know that what they theorize is true!

tell me...no...don't tell me...argh!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> argh...I'm dying to know who you think is doing that but, as you say, that would be a spoiler since we would know that what they theorize is true!
> 
> tell me...no...don't tell me...argh!


I kind of want to know so I can skip past their posts.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Well, I certainly hope he didn't mean me. Yes, I've read the books (not memorized them). But I look forward to the show as the best show I will see all week. When it's over I want to talk about it. And I come here and mostly bite my tongue, but enjoy reading what other people are saying. It's fun. Sometimes people will ask questions about events that happened in the show, but perhaps don't have enough background. I think those are fair game, if they don't reveal what's going to happen.

There's a tremendous amount of background in the books that the TV show simply doesn't have time to reveal. How Theon became a ward of the Starks for instance, or why Harrenhall is melted. 

I think that, for the most part, the book readers are here because they love the material, and want to participate, and I think they've been very respectful of those who haven't read the books. Perhaps there's been some slipups from time to time, but mostly honest accidents. It's not like someone was running around in the season one thread letting everyone know that Ned was going to die by the end of the season, right?

Is there someone making predictions so they can say "see, I told you so"? I haven't seen that.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

When people post "background" or extra information from the books that hasn't been shown on TV, they don't know that the TV show isn't going to show us that in it's own time and fashion. I would like to enjoy the TV show as the artists who are creating it intend.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Ereth said:


> Well, I certainly hope he didn't mean me. Yes, I've read the books (not memorized them). But I look forward to the show as the best show I will see all week. When it's over I want to talk about it. And I come here and mostly bite my tongue, but enjoy reading what other people are saying. It's fun. Sometimes people will ask questions about events that happened in the show, but perhaps don't have enough background. I think those are fair game, if they don't reveal what's going to happen.
> 
> There's a tremendous amount of background in the books that the TV show simply doesn't have time to reveal. How Theon became a ward of the Starks for instance, or why Harrenhall is melted.
> 
> ...


He didn't mean you. I cannot recall off the top of my head who it was or which episode thread, but there has been at least one time this season and once last season where someone's "prediction" was too detailed and on the nose to be pure speculation. I too suspected like cherry ghost that at those times someone was playing coy with what they really knew.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> He didn't mean you. I cannot recall off the top of my head who it was or which episode thread, but there has been at least one time this season and once last season where someone's "prediction" was too detailed and on the nose to be pure speculation. I too suspected like cherry ghost that at those times someone was playing coy with what they really knew.


now we're getting somewhere...what was the prediction (assuming it already happened, of course!)?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Ereth said:


> Well, I certainly hope he didn't mean me.


absolutely not



tiams said:


> When people post "background" or extra information from the books that hasn't been shown on TV, they don't know that the TV show isn't going to show us that in it's own time and fashion. I would like to enjoy the TV show as the artists who are creating it intend.


I sort of agree with this, and it's why most of my posts are tagged as spoilers and only in response to non-readers questions or posts by readers that are tagged properly as spoilers but contain wrong/misremembered info.



Shaunnick said:


> He didn't mean you. I cannot recall off the top of my head who it was or which episode thread, but there has been at least one time this season and once last season where someone's "prediction" was too detailed and on the nose to be pure speculation. I too suspected like cherry ghost that at those times someone was playing coy with what they really knew.


I didn't read the books until after season 1, so I'm not aware if it happened last year, but there have been instances this year in a previous thread(s).


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

When we are only given a part of the story on TV (due to time restrictions, etc.) I have always liked it when the book readers come in and help us to understand by filling in a bit more of the backstory. I really don't see the issue with that, if they put them in spoiler tags.


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

tiams said:


> Why inconvenience every person who either reads on their phone or subscribes to threads and gets email notifications?
> Every other post is a spoiler in these threads and it is inconsiderate.


You are speaking as if everyone who uses a phone or e-mail notifications is upset about spoilers. There are many people that don't care about spoilers. So essentially what you are suggesting is that in order to not inconvenience your use of a phone and e-mail, the people discussing how a book relates to a particular episode must inconvenience themselves by maintaining two separate threads for each episode.

If they properly enclose the information within spoiler tags, it is not their fault your phone or the e-mail notification system don't handle them properly.

As for my opinion, I don't mind the book talk as long as it's contained in spoiler tags if it refers to something that has not occurred yet in the series. Discussing minor difference between the show and the books for the same events is interesting to see how the writers adapted the source material to a TV series. Also, many times the book readers can provide context or more detailed information regarding something in the show.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Tracy said:


> When we are only given a part of the story on TV (due to time restrictions, etc.) I have always liked it when the book readers come in and help us to understand by filling in a bit more of the backstory. I really don't see the issue with that, if they put them in spoiler tags.


The problem is, when a book reader takes it upon themselves to add non-tv stuff, they have no way of knowing that it will not eventually be shown in-show. And this has happened frequently without spoiler tags. I don't have any problem understanding the show on my own. Neither do the millions of other people who watch the show and don't read this thread. 
Plus, some people will want to read the books after the show is over and would prefer for the books not to be spoiled.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

So it sounds like asking the book readers to be more vigilant with the spoiler tags will help this issue. Then the non-book readers can decide whether to look or not. And people with phones that don't support spoiler tags know not to check this thread that way.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Tracy said:


> So it sounds like asking the book readers to be more vigilant with the spoiler tags will help this issue. Then the non-book readers can decide whether to look or not. And people with phones that don't support spoiler tags know not to check this thread that way.


:up:


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

And people who have email updates for their subscription should turn those off. These threads are high traffic enough, that I think that would be an email nightmare anyway.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Anubys said:


> argh...I'm dying to know who you think is doing that but, as you say, that would be a spoiler since we would know that what they theorize is true!
> 
> tell me...no...don't tell me...argh!


Don't worry, I haven't noticed it on our threads. I think since we're a smaller community, it's more personal and people are less likely to do it.

It was BLATANT on the TWOP newbie thread last year when after 1-2 episodes people were making "guesses" that were way too complicated to extrapolate with such little data.

You're good here!


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

I just find it annoying when I come to read new posts in the thread, and everything is in spoiler tags. I haven't had a problem with being inadvertently spoiled. I don't mind the posts that give background from the books, like what Ereth mentioned, even when that's not in spoiler tags.

But I consider the book discussion that's been going on in these threads in spoiler tags to be off topic, and IMO it should be taken to another thread. Maybe this debate about spoilers should be taken to another thread, too!


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

Reading these threads sometimes can be like watching a movie with someone that's already seen it. Even though they may not be telling you specifics, they are dropping hints or telling you when a "good" part is coming up. Hasn't everyone experienced this before? That can get annoying.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> Reading these threads sometimes can be like watching a movie with someone that's already seen it. Even though they may not be telling you specifics, they are dropping hints or telling you when a "good" part is coming up. Hasn't everyone experienced this before? That can get annoying.


I agree. Statements like "You guys won't believe what's coming next" are problematic. People should keep those posts out.

Otherwise I think book readers can use spoiler tags. For info that was in the books but not in the show, but we are also past that event in the show, I think book readers don't need spoilers.

Example, in the book when Renly is killed with Brienne and Catelyn in the tent, he is wearing armor and gets his throat cut. That shouldn't need spoiler tags.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

goblue97 said:


> Reading these threads sometimes can be like watching a movie with someone that's already seen it. Even though they may not be telling you specifics, they are dropping hints or telling you when a "good" part is coming up. Hasn't everyone experienced this before? That can get annoying.


Or when they say "there is more to X than meets the eye" or "I want to point out that X" or "pay attention to X", or "X is some important information that explains something that hasn't been shown in the show YET" or "there is an important reason for that".


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

How about this. I'm a book reader. I'm offering to explain anything anyone is confused about. Instead of asking here - PM me and I'll answer you there. Your question gets answered and these threads stay clean.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh hell. I thought the book thread was in happy hour. I just clicked it by accident. I don't think I read anything important though. phew.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

mostman said:


> How about this. I'm a book reader. I'm offering to explain anything anyone is confused about. Instead of asking here - PM me and I'll answer you there. Your question gets answered and these threads stay clean.


If you are interested, I started a thread to discuss season 2 and book 2 since the other thread allowing book discussion is avoided by those who haven't read all the books.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh hell. I thought the book thread was in happy hour. I just clicked it by accident. I don't think I read anything important though. phew.


The book thread in Happy Hour is the original one opened last season which includes posts about all the books. I suspect you clicked on the one I started to discuss just this season and the book it is based on. The idea is to allow "book talk" but only as it related to what has been seen in the show with the use of spoiler tags to discuss upcoming events.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah I know that now. 
It's my own fault for getting click happy and not paying attention.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yeah I know that now.
> It's my own fault for getting click happy and not paying attention.


Lol. I don't think there are any real spoilers yet. Really it may even be a safe thread for those that have asked about clarification from the books or don't mind hearing how some scenes compare.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mostman said:


> How about this. I'm a book reader. I'm offering to explain anything anyone is confused about. Instead of asking here - PM me and I'll answer you there. Your question gets answered and these threads stay clean.


There's a lot of questions I don't think to ask, but when I see them asked and answered I find them very interesting. I'd hate seeing that disappear into PMs


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

That warlock guy was creepy. Double creepy.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

tiassa said:


> I think the locale was called "Torrin's Square", it was the place that Bron was informed had been attacked after he had held court. Also note that Bron's dream of the sea washing over Winterfell "predicted" this as the raven leading him to the crypt presaged his father's death.


But Bran was informed that it was attacked by Lanister soldiers. Was that a mistaken report? Or are there going to be a three sides cluster-fisk there when 200 Stark bannermen collide with the Lanister soldiers and Thoen's pirates?
(BTW don't actually want answers, just speculating on where the show might go. And of course waiting impatiently for the next episode



photoshopgrl said:


> Just to be clear, they are going to kill off a former Ranger turned Wildling? Why would he want to stay north of the wall forever?? And what does killing this man gain the Night's Watch? Little lost on that.


They certainly seem to want to take that ex-ranger out. But when they were talking about it they're worried that he's organizing the wildlings and will lead them in a succesful attack against the south. (No one, even wildlings _wants_ to stay north of the wall with a long winter coming and the white walkers (and gods knows what else) stirring.

Eliminate him and the chances that the wildlings can successfully overwhelm the watch and destroy the south's defenses against the northern threats is vastly lessened.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> That warlock guy was creepy. Double creepy.


Don't forget the freaky chick in the mask. Not double freaky though, just single freaky.


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## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> But Bran was informed that it was attacked by Lanister soldiers. Was that a mistaken report? Or are there going to be a three sides cluster-fisk there when 200 Stark bannermen collide with the Lanister soldiers and Thoen's pirates?


My take was that they just assumed it was Lannisters attacking. That's who they're at war with, after all. They have no idea that Greyjoy is even their enemy yet.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

billypritchard said:


> Don't forget the freaky chick in the mask. Not double freaky though, just single freaky.


I laughed at that. It was like "throwing the cat" trope, Warlock guys pops out of nowhere to be freaky. Then weird lady pops out of no one to be freaky. I joked and said Rickon should pop out next to just finish this out.

Lo and behold, Rickon comes back (although not creepy) for the first time in God knows how many episodes.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> But Bran was informed that it was attacked by Lanister soldiers. Was that a mistaken report?


No he wasn't. Brans advisor assumed it was the lannisters. Here's the exact exchange:

Guy with weird beard: Lord Stark, Torrens Square is under seige.
Brans advisor: Torrens Square is barely 40 leagues from here. How can the Lannisters strike so far north?
Guy with weird beard: It might be a raiding party led by the Mountain. Might be sellswords paid by Tywin Lannister

So they clearly didn't know the details and just assumed, since the Lannisters are their only known enemies at that point.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> No he wasn't. Brans advisor assumed it was the lannisters. Here's the exact exchange:
> 
> Guy with weird beard: Lord Stark, Torrens Square is under seige.
> Brans advisor: Torrens Square is barely 40 leagues from here. How can the Lannisters strike so far north?
> ...


Ah. Thanks for posting that.

I remembered the Lanister's bit, and guessing about which group of them, but missed/didn't remember it was _total_ speculation. (As opposed to seeing people with Lanister standards attacking, but not being sure who led them)


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I thought Rickon was a little creepy. He's not a baby after all. 

I was wondering if the connection to the wolves is stronger in the Stark children the younger they are--like kids are supposedly more open to ghosts and stuff than adults. We know Bran is very close to his wolf, but we don't really know what Rickon is up to. Maybe he's even more so involved with running the fields with Shaggy dog and that's why he acts so wild and crazy with people.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I thought Rickon was a little creepy. He's not a baby after all.


Yeah, it seem that way, didn't it. The manner in which he sat there smashing the nuts almost seemed like someone who had gone mad. But I suppose that's probably how a bored little kit having to sit in on some boring council meeting would probably act.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Yeah, it seem that way, didn't it. The manner in which he sat there smashing the nuts almost seemed like someone who had gone mad. But I suppose that's probably how a bored little kit having to sit in on some boring council meeting would probably act.


Right...bear in mind, they'd probably been there all day, listen to people whine about tedious little problems no one but the whiner could possibly care about. It's amazing that everybody else wasn't smashing nuts on the table. 

Seriously, though, I think the point wasn't how "nuts" Rickon was, but how unnaturally mature Bran was.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I thought Rickon was a little creepy. He's not a baby after all.
> 
> I was wondering if the connection to the wolves is stronger in the Stark children the younger they are--like kids are supposedly more open to ghosts and stuff than adults. We know Bran is very close to his wolf, but we don't really know what Rickon is up to. Maybe he's even more so involved with running the fields with Shaggy dog and that's why he acts so wild and crazy with people.


All the wolves have some telepathy with their Stark master. Robb's grey stalks and attacks the correct people at the right time, and Robb is hardly a young one.

I loved the imagery of Bran's dream of water spilling over the walls (greyjoys).


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Does anyone know how fast HBO puts this up on GO each week? Is it immediately? I know it's there by mid morning but I'm leaving Monday at 6am for Florida and I don't see me staying up to watch this Sunday night. I'm hoping to watch it on the flight. I don't think I can wait almost a week to watch it.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

According to the ads, it's available as soon as the original airing is over. They always have an ad to "Watch it again on HBO Go, with the enhanced information".


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> According to the ads, it's available as soon as the original airing is over. They always have an ad to "Watch it again on HBO Go, with the enhanced information".


Awesome thanks!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Does anyone know how fast HBO puts this up on GO each week? Is it immediately? I know it's there by mid morning but I'm leaving Monday at 6am for Florida and I don't see me staying up to watch this Sunday night. *I'm hoping to watch it on the flight.* I don't think I can wait almost a week to watch it.


I hope you are sitting in the back row. Otherwise I'd be too nervous to watch this show on a plane. The kid behind you will be looking over your shoulder and them some Littlefinger brothel scene pops up


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I hope you are sitting in the back row. Otherwise I'd be too nervous to watch this show on a plane. The kid behind you will be looking over your shoulder and them some Littlefinger brothel scene pops up


Trust me, no kids ever look over my shoulder. 
Now I'm thinking the wifi might not be great enough on the plane for HD streaming so I might have to wait until I'm there. My friends are going to be saying WTF when I tell them I need an hour to watch the show. Hee!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Trust me, no kids ever look over my shoulder.


Wear something low cut, they'll look over your shoulder then!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> Wear something low cut, they'll look over your shoulder then!


 but no. 
Do you realize how hard it's going to be for me to not watch this tonight?? Even if I wanted to stay up to watch, my mom will be here (she's staying at my house while I'm gone to help with my diabetic kitty) and I know she has no interest in it and would freak out over some of the content.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> but no.
> Do you realize how hard it's going to be for me to not watch this tonight?? Even if I wanted to stay up to watch, my mom will be here (she's staying at my house while I'm gone to help with my diabetic kitty) and I know she has no interest in it and would freak out over some of the content.


THIS IS A JOB FOR GOOGLE GLASSES!










http://www.vuzix.com/consumer/


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> THIS IS A JOB FOR GOOGLE GLASSES!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shut the F up... that is awesome!


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## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

netringer said:


> THIS IS A JOB FOR GOOGLE GLASSES!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wanna get that, I wanna get that, I wanna get that!

Anyone ever used them? Do they filter out light?


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So, should we start a pool on how long before photoshopgrl has a meltdown because she can't watch this weeks episode?

I'm in for airtime + 4 hours.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Nah, she will have gone into preemptive meltdown. If the process isn't already done, it's well under way.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nah, she will have gone into preemptive meltdown. If the process isn't already done, it's well under way.


I got to my gate early to watch this before boarding and the mofo POS stupid crap wifi at this stupid hick town airport is not fast enough to stream HBOGO. I have seen the first 3 mins about 10x trying. I am seriously going to blow a gasket!!! Aaarrrrrggghhhhh!!!


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