# Copy protection vs. Save to VCR



## BOMOON (Dec 12, 2004)

Hi Everyone,
I bought an S3 unit because I wanted HD and data ports that work. I should have done a little more research into copy-protection first.

Now I find that most of the programs I want to record to DVD are copy-protected, rendering the data ports useless.

However, if I want to save these same programs to a VCR or tabletop DVD recorder, I can do that whenever I want by selecting a program in the Now Playing list. TiVo thoughtfully provides an option just for that purpose.

Or, I could get fancy and use a capture card to transfer programs to my PC during playback, and thence to DVDs via authoring software.

I'm still getting used to all this, so please forgive my naiveness on this subject, but I don't get the logic being used here. We can make copies of programs for personal use, but only if we record them during playback? What's the point? Are low-quality playback recordings "good" and high-quality file transfers "bad"?

I repeat my apology. Obviously I'm easily dumbfounded. 

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This is not TiVo's choice. This is a requirement of the CableCARD specification. The CableCARD specification has levels of copy protection that the content provider chooses to apply to their content. In some areas, like yours, almost everything is protected, while in others, like mine, nothing is. (I can transfer HD movies form HBO if I want) It's up to the cable provider to choose what they protect. The only thing they can't protect are the local broadcast stations. Anything that's broadcast over public airwaves can not be protected, even when rebroadcast via cable.

Dan


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## Laserfan (Apr 25, 2000)

BOMOON said:


> ...if I want to save these same programs to a VCR or tabletop DVD recorder, I can do that whenever I want by selecting a program in the Now Playing list. TiVo thoughtfully provides an option just for that purpose....I don't get the logic being used here. We can make copies of programs for personal use, but only if we record them during playback? What's the point? Are low-quality playback recordings "good" and high-quality file transfers "bad"?


Yes, for "copy-protected" programs the powers-that-be don't want you to be able to make perfect High Definition copies and sell them. This is being done all over the planet.

The "Save to VCR" feature of Tivo limits the output/resolution to Standard Definition i.e. "dumbs them down" to less-than-HD resolution which makes programs much less valuable to thieves & pirates.

I think most people who want to "Save to VCR" are using DVD recorders these days. Another option is a Hava/Slingbox, which connects to the S-Video output of the Tivo and sends a converted program over your network to a PC for editing/saving. I have a Hava Platinum HD which is cheaper than a Slingbox and works in MPEG2 vs. the Sling's Windows Media format. But I only use it for remote control of the Tivo--who wants to save anything in Std. Def any more?


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

I have used the "save to vcr option" to transfer hd video to video tape before and did not notice any quality differences during the transfer. On play back the quality was a little low but to me seemed better than standard video recordings. I can't tell the difference between the "save to vcr option" and just playing back a recorded show other than the "save to vcr option" puts up a title screen at the beginning of the recording. I don't have HDMI on my HD tv so I am using component video output to the tv. I am using composite video input to the VCR. The last time I used the VCR for recording HD was near the beginning of the year before TTG was enabled. Most of my stuff I can transfer to the pc without any problems although I did notice that the closer had copy protection on it not that I wanted to transfer it but I was not expecting it to be copy protected. Oh well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DrWho453 said:


> I can't tell the difference between the "save to vcr option" and just playing back a recorded show other than the "save to vcr option" puts up a title screen at the beginning of the recording.


That's because the little black title screen is the only difference. 

Dan


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm not so sure. Seems to me that, at least with Discovery HD, using Save to VCR turns off Closed Captions, while with Play they are presented.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bicker said:


> I'm not so sure. Seems to me that, at least with Discovery HD, using Save to VCR turns off Closed Captions, while with Play they are presented.


Also "Save to VCR", IIRC, disables some of the functionality of the TiVo while playing, in order to avoid situations where someone else comes and accidentally starts using the TiVo for other stuff, because they don't know that a save to VCR is in progress.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Oh yeah forgot about those. It's been a long time since I used "Save to VCR", and back in the old days there was no difference except the little title screen.

Dan


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## DrWho453 (Jul 16, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Also "Save to VCR", IIRC, disables some of the functionality of the TiVo while playing, in order to avoid situations where someone else comes and accidentally starts using the TiVo for other stuff, because they don't know that a save to VCR is in progress.


Yea, I forgot about that as well seeing how I am still single and don't have any one around to worry about accidentally doing something during the recording, I haven't really paid much attention to it.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> This is not TiVo's choice. ... Anything that's broadcast over public airwaves can not be protected, even when rebroadcast via cable.
> 
> Dan


Well than why in the hell is Tivo applying DRM to every file transferred to a PC? And also, doesnt Tivo encrypt everything on its filesystem which is one of the things handicapping TTG/MRV?


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## weymo (Jan 26, 2003)

qz3fwd said:


> Well than why in the hell is Tivo applying DRM to every file transferred to a PC? And also, doesnt Tivo encrypt everything on its filesystem which is one of the things handicapping TTG/MRV?


I have to say, I'm very disgusted right now with the To-Go functionality because it's being taken away...and I was one of the fools who actually PAID for the functionality before it became part of the standard package.
I have a dual tuner SD TiVo and have found that the Basic Quality recordings of HD channels from my Scientific Atlanta box WILL NOT TRANSFER via TiVo To Go.
Well, why would I want to do THAT? you might ask...
The quality is better, why else? But as most TiVo owners know, we don't watch everything we want to watch right away...we might archive it and watch it later right?
So what happens when ALL broadcast tv goes to HD at the end of the year? Does this mean that our TTG functionality is gone? I don't have a stinkin' cablecard...so...
And now I'm stuck. We tend to save up weeks and weeks of programming and then marathon our way through when we have a dreary weekend. We've been looking forward to Moonlight and a few other series but now I'm realizing that unless I "keep until I delete" the HD copies (and I won't have room, and some of them have already rolled because I figured my transfer rules would work and not fail EVERY time) we will have to try to Unbox them IF they are available.
Frustrating.

*It seems to me that HD flags should be ignored if you are not using an HD recording device.*


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

qz3fwd said:


> Well than why in the hell is Tivo applying DRM to every file transferred to a PC? And also, doesnt Tivo encrypt everything on its filesystem which is one of the things handicapping TTG/MRV?


Because their lawyers make them to prevent lawsuits. ReplayTV got sued out of business for implementing automatic commercial skip and user sharing features. TiVo has to do the encryption to make it at least appear that they are trying to prevent illegal sharing. Trust me the developers at TiVo who actually wrote all the TTG code think it's ridiculous to keep with the encryption given how easy it is to defeat. But the lawyers tell the higher ups that it's necessary and they force it on the rest of us.



weymo said:


> I have to say, I'm very disgusted right now with the To-Go functionality because it's being taken away...and I was one of the fools who actually PAID for the functionality before it became part of the standard package.............[/B]


Try unplugging your cable box and allowing it to reboot. Sometimes they get confused and start outputting a copy protection signal when they're not suppose to. It wont help any of the recordings you already have but it may help prevent this on future recordings. If that doesn't help then you need to contact your cable company because they're the ones injecting the recording with the Macrovision flags that cause this protection on a S2, and it's actually illegal for them to use those flags on any channel which is broadcast over public airwaves. (i.e. ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS & The CW)

Dan


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## tiarksd (Feb 25, 2008)

Anyone have specific references to FCC regulations regarding applying copy protection flags on local content. I just turned up my TivoHD and it appears that TWC (Dublin/Columbus Ohio) is setting the copy protect flag on all stations. I need to send the president a letter and specific references would be useful.


Doug


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## en sabur nur (Oct 30, 2007)

weymo said:


> I have to say, I'm very disgusted right now with the To-Go functionality because it's being taken away...and I was one of the fools who actually PAID for the functionality before it became part of the standard package.
> I have a dual tuner SD TiVo and have found that the Basic Quality recordings of HD channels from my Scientific Atlanta box WILL NOT TRANSFER via TiVo To Go.
> Well, why would I want to do THAT? you might ask...
> The quality is better, why else? But as most TiVo owners know, we don't watch everything we want to watch right away...we might archive it and watch it later right?
> ...


Is there any way to set the "Keep Until I Delete" function to automatically apply to all recordings?



DrWho453 said:


> I have used the "save to vcr option" to transfer hd video to video tape before and did not notice any quality differences during the transfer. On play back the quality was a little low but to me seemed better than standard video recordings. I can't tell the difference between the "save to vcr option" and just playing back a recorded show other than the "save to vcr option" puts up a title screen at the beginning of the recording. I don't have HDMI on my HD tv so I am using component video output to the tv. I am using composite video input to the VCR. The last time I used the VCR for recording HD was near the beginning of the year before TTG was enabled. Most of my stuff I can transfer to the pc without any problems although I did notice that the closer had copy protection on it not that I wanted to transfer it but I was not expecting it to be copy protected. Oh well.


When you transfer Hd recordings to your PC or Mac, the recordings (if not copy restricted), are still in HD? I'd always just assumed they were downrezzed to 480i automatically during the process.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

en sabur nur said:


> Is there any way to set the "Keep Until I Delete" function to automatically apply to all recordings?


You can set all your season passes to KUID once and they will always be saved with KUID.
Shows you record from the guide can be set KUID through the options at the time you select them to record.

I would strongly recommend using KUID very sparingly with your most cherished shows. 
The Tivo can get full before you know it, then you start missing shows due to a full hard drive.



en sabur nur said:


> When you transfer Hd recordings to your PC or Mac, the recordings (if not copy restricted), are still in HD?


Yes.


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## en sabur nur (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks, Steve614 but what is KUID? 

Nevermind, I found it. 

I usually watch my shows before the hard drive fills, but I would rather miss the later shows than miss large gaps of shows in a season pass. If I miss two or three episodes, I won't want to see the rest of them.


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