# Persuade me



## simbeav (Mar 14, 2005)

Current S1 user and I've got V+ with VirginMedia.
If they had phoned me at a reasonable time during the past few weeks I would have bitten their hands off for a new Tivo, but they didn't and it's given me time to think.

My current set up is S1 Tivo attached to V-Box for SD recording (and duplicating V+ for inevitable glitches), V+ for HD recording and sport, AZBOX for satellite, Youtube and media streaming, XBMC4XBOX for more media streaming. 

As you can see, I don't care about "1 box solutions" preferring horses for courses rather than jack of all trades.

If I got the new Tivo, I would end up with that to replace the V+, move my S1 Tivo (presuming continued guide data) to an old Sky box and have a spare V+, as the V-Box would go.

Pros of changing - IT'S A TIVO STUPID.

Cons - (all according to reports) Worse picture than V+, PIN mania (it's bad enough the way Virgin have implemented the V+ and they've never showed interest in correcting that, so no confidence that they will fix the Tivo), not yet reliable at recording, £199 + £3 a month !

Anybody (especially those with a new Tivo) able to persuade me why (if ever offered one) I should go for a new Tivo.


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## jonphil (Aug 7, 2002)

I have no issues with picture quality, but I'm comparing it with SkyHD where the Tivo (even SD) looks better?

The pin number is annoying 

Mine has been reliable at recording things? Think you have to pay close attention when setting up series links and such but mine has worked well so far.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Agreed on your "Pro" point 

On your "cons"... I've only had three days of experience with it myself, and not recorded _that_ much, but there certainly has been no reliability isssue thus far. But then I never had any with the V+ either  Don't have an HDTV but the picture looks fine on my old CRT. As to the price.. well, it's up to you if you can justify (and afford!) the cost.

For me, there are certainly more good things than bad about the new Tivo.


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

The picture quality is just as good as my old V+ box. Maybe side by side I could tell a difference in SD (although not in HD where it'll be identical as it's just passing the broadcast signal to the TV anyway).


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

I think we should also consider a pro to be that the new box is SUPPORTED!

I have had my box for a week now; picture quality is WAY better than my Mode0 S1 and I haven't had a single reboot or other 'fatal' error.

Sure, a couple of annoyances, slow bits and all that. But we're getting a software update "soon" and VM\TiVo are listening.


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## Ernie_C (Feb 20, 2011)

Tony Hoyle said:


> The picture quality is just as good as my old V+ box. Maybe side by side I could tell a difference in SD (although not in HD where it'll be identical *as it's just passing the broadcast signal to the TV anyway)*.


Is it correct that the broadcast signal is just being passed?

Surely the TiVo has to decompress the MPEG2 before it passes it to the TV?


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## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

One of the downsides is that there is no reminder function at present.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Anyone who is a previous S1 user will not want a 'reminder function'. Just not what TiVo is about.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

V+ does have 3 accessible tuners - Tivo only has 2 - until march that is.
V+ can output a different programme to VCR scart than on the TV scart.

That's about it - V+ isn't really comparable to tivo in daily use though.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> V+ does have 3 accessible tuners..


No. It only has one _accessible_ tuner. You can't switch between all three


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## Tony Hoyle (Apr 1, 2002)

Ernie_C said:


> Is it correct that the broadcast signal is just being passed?
> 
> Surely the TiVo has to decompress the MPEG2 before it passes it to the TV?


Yes but it'll always decompress to the same thing no matter what box you're using... there's not further processing/scaling involved. OTOH with SD it has to be scaled (at least until the video menu starts working and we can tell tivo to pass 576i directly) so there's a degree of interpretation involved.


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

VirginMediaPhil said:


> One of the downsides is that there is no reminder function at present.




Wh-wh-what??

So.....I'll have no way of setting reminders for football games in the week ahead I want to watch live?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Karnak said:


> Anyone who is a previous S1 user will not want a 'reminder function'. Just not what TiVo is about.


I have TiVo S1 for 10 years and I want a reminder function.

If I going through my previous recordings - I want a reminder when the football is about to start.


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## doctor.steve (Jan 17, 2003)

simbeav said:


> Anybody (especially those with a new Tivo) able to persuade me why (if ever offered one) I should go for a new Tivo.


Pro)
Uhm - I thought they (TiVo) were ending the guide data for S1 boxes so unless someone puts a manual solution in place - big problem there.

Con)
TiVo is all about the metadata - so essentially it -should- be like for like swap.
This is a stickler for me at the moment. It doesn't seem as clearer fix as the actual tuner/PIN issues etc


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## Brangdon (Feb 9, 2001)

If you are worried it might make sense to wait for the public release, in a month or two. I hope and believe that the patch with the 3rd tuner will include numerous other fixes.

(Probably it will cost more then, but maybe if you tell them you are an s1 user you'll still get the s1 deal.)



The Wishlist said:


> So.....I'll have no way of setting reminders for football games in the week ahead I want to watch live?


That's what mobile phones are for. Having the TV issue a reminder only works if you happen to be sat in front of the TV at the time.


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

Brangdon said:


> That's what mobile phones are for. Having the TV issue a reminder only works if you happen to be sat in front of the TV at the time.


Exactly! That's the whole point of a reminder! To be reminded when a programme is on and if required, to automatically change the channel.

If mobile phones were supposed to do that, they why did Virgin put reminder functionality on their older TV STBs? Or Sky for that matter?


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## richw (Jul 27, 2002)

The Wishlist said:


> If mobile phones were supposed to do that, they why did Virgin put reminder functionality on their older TV STBs? Or Sky for that matter?


Because it dates from the days when they were plain old STBs not PVRs.

Why set a reminder which you might not see when you can record the program instead?


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

richw said:


> Because it dates from the days when they were plain old STBs not PVRs.


I disagree, my Sammy TV can't record anything but I can set reminders on its Freeview EPG.



richw said:


> Why set a reminder which you might not see when you can record the program instead?


Ask any football fan what they would rather do:

Watch a game live, or watch a recording.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I can possibly see a use for reminders if all tuners are used up,
to inform you of a programme you could switch to using your TV's free view tuner (or the 3rd channel hopping tuner when it's turned on!)

But they are a relic of the non-PVR past IMO.

I would like a notification area on screen to show emails or tweets or latest headlines,
Reminders could use that system too - it would have to be switchable though - I could see it being annoying and intrusive for some.

E.g. One line of text at the bottom of the screen - auto closing after a few seconds of course!


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

Just because we have the ability to record content doesn't mean we won't watch it live, or won't want to be reminded when its on. I'm thinking of 'event' viewing which after a day at work, you want to reminded to watch after you come home and turn the telly on. Sporting events; Royal Weddings; X-Factor finals if that floats your boat.

And as previously stated, both PVRs from Sky and Virgin have this functionality. Even some Freeview PVRs have this functionality......but now its a relic from a bygone era because its not in VM's Tivo and we should set reminders on our mobile phones instead?

Sorry, not buying it.

Take the Apprentice: Sure, you could record it......and by which time you watch it you'll be damn lucky if you don't have that's week's 'result' leaked to you via any news outlet or websites which will have the result on their front page without any warning.

That's the sort of thing I want to be reminded of, to watch _live_.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

But why be reminded (which means you have to be infront of the TV to actually see it anyway) over just setting it to record as a matter of course? What if you happen to be working late - or whatever - that night. What good is a reminder then?


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## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

That's not the point. If you were working late then surely you'd set it to record anyway. If you didn't know you were working late you'd just text/go online and set a recording or watch it on BBC iPlayer (if BBC iPlayer has it of course).

The point of a reminder is if you are in front of the TV watching a recording or another channel and want to watch a live event, such as a particular sport, news event or a live event like The X Factor; whatever you're doing beforehand e.g. watching another channel, catching up on a recording, watching on demand, it is easier to use the reminder function than endlessly having to bring up the guide to see what the time is and forgetting to see the beginning and missing the first 5 minutes.

No reminder function on this new box is going to be a huge loss for me and, as already seen, many others on this forum and in the rest of the UK.


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

cwaring said:


> But why be reminded (which means you have to be infront of the TV to actually see it anyway) over just setting it to record as a matter of course? What if you happen to be working late - or whatever - that night. What good is a reminder then?


Are you saying then that you've _always_ remembered to switch the channel to watch a programme you want to watch live when you're at home?

I'll give you an example: Marseille vs Man Utd on ITV 1 - I knew last weekend that the game was coming up and I also knew that I wanted to watch it live (like any football TV fan would), so I set the reminder at the weekend for that game and _every other football game_ throughout this week.

Why? So when I'm home after work later in the week, busy in the kitchen cooking dinner or being distracted doing something else, I won't forget that the football - the live football I wanted to watch - was on - via a on-screen reminder or by the reminder automatically changing the channel.

Someone at Virgin and Sky must have the same feelings about this when programming their PVRs - why else would they waste time programming that functionality into V+ HD and Sky +/HD ?

What's so special about TiVo that all of a sudden, basic reminder functionality is now considered obsolete for a PVR?

(I recall asking you about 'Wishlist reminders', Carl, on DS)


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

I don't see the reason you don't want to record it?

You can still watch it live, and setting a recording reserves a tuner, and serves the same purpose of reminding and changing channel at the start!

If you don't set a recording, you potentially miss it (not watching tv/ in room at the time the reminder comes on), and lose timeslip capability ( ff past boring bits and adverts).

Oh, it's nothing special about TiVo - it's just a PVR mindset - I often set many more recordings on V+ than I plan to watch, then delete a load every day. I don't think of a recording as something precious and have a divide of record/ watch live. TBH I think that's a VHS mindset - and yes I know that sounds smug, sorry!


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

mikerr said:


> I don't see the reason you don't want to record it?
> 
> You can still watch it live, and setting a recording reserves a tuner, and serves the same purpose of reminding and changing channel at the start!


How does setting a recording serve as a reminder?  ...I don't have a TiVo (yet) so I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean......England vs Germany at the World Cup.....ask any footy fan if he would want to watch it live (and set a reminder on his PVR to switch the channel when the coverage starts), or watch a recording.

That's an sporting 'event' which people would want to watch live - time-shifting for something like that? No thanks, if I'm 30 seconds behind real time then I could hear the people over the road celebrating a goal before I see it scored.

I can't be the only person on here who prefers to watch live sporting events and be reminded of when they're on.....surely? *18 million watched England vs Germany LIVE*:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jun/28/tv-ratings-world-cup-england-germany

I doubt very much if I was the only PVR owner who set a reminder that day for that game, or for the other World Cup games so I could watch them live after getting home from work.....instead of realising 'oh bugger! there's a game on RIGHT NOW! If only I'd set a reminder....'


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

VirginMediaPhil said:


> The point of a reminder is if you are in front of the TV watching a recording or another channel and want to watch a live event, such as a particular sport, news event or a live event like The X Factor; whatever you're doing beforehand e.g. watching another channel, catching up on a recording, watching on demand, it is easier to use the reminder function than endlessly having to bring up the guide to see what the time is and forgetting to see the beginning and missing the first 5 minutes.


I never miss anything because I record _everything_. That's the point.

Okay. I don't watch "live" stuff; footy, x fact, scd. But if I did I'd still record it and watch it delayed so I could skip the ads (or boring bits!).



> No reminder function on this new box is going to be a huge loss for me and, as already seen, many others on this forum and in the rest of the UK.


Not when you get used to recording _everything_; whether you sit there and watch it on only ten or fifteen minute delay.



The Wishlist said:


> Are you saying then that you've _always_ remembered to switch the channel to watch a programme you want to watch live when you're at home?


Yes. I set _everything_ to record; even the same night.



> ... so I set the reminder at the weekend for that game and _every other football game_ throughout this week.


With Tivo you'd simply set it to record them all; with suitable padding, of course  Job done. They'll be there when you're ready to watch.



> Why? So when I'm home after work later in the week, busy in the kitchen cooking dinner or being distracted doing something else, I won't forget that the football - the live football I wanted to watch - was on - via a on-screen reminder or by the reminder automatically changing the channel.


Same thing would apply if you set it to record. With the added advantage that, with any last minute changes to _your_ schedule (as opposed to the TV one ) you won't miss the footy as you would have done has you simply set a reminder; assuming you'd be there to watch it.



> What's so special about TiVo that all of a sudden, basic reminder functionality is now considered obsolete for a PVR?


Because it _is_ obsolete 



> (I recall asking you about 'Wishlist reminders', Carl, on DS)


Wishlists, yes. Reminders, no.

Obviously we're never going to agree so I'll not bother responding again as there's no point 



mikerr said:


> Oh, it's nothing special about TiVo - it's just a PVR mindset..


^ This.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I prefer to watch sporting events time slipped by a few minutes, so I can FF though half time or ad breaks.

Even stuff I'm intending to watch fully live, I still record - otherwise you risk the TiVo/PVR switching channels on you during a key bit of play!

If it's a major event of the hearing goals scored down the street type you're unlikely to forget it.

And yes, I do watch the Apprentice recorded - who wants to be slave to sitting down at exactly 8pm? Broke that habit 10 years ago. I will watch it the same evening to avoid spoilers; sometimes just a few minutes out of synch.

Twitter is making it harder to live life recorded, in an unexpected step backwards!


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm well aware of the benefits of a PVR, having used one for several years, and most of my viewing is recorded-time-shifted - _apart_ from live 'event' viewing which I'm sure I've bored everyone silly with by now.

I give up.  ....we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I used to be like you guys and watch sports live.

However after years of TiVo use, I find reminders redundant as it's so much easier to have everything recorded.

Once you get used to it you think doing it the old way is not as flexible.

I know what live sports events I want to watch so just watch them whenever I want, but usually half an hour behind .

I know what live sports are upcoming by a quick look at the upcoming shows screen on TiVo for the current day

As it takes the same time or even less to set a program to record as it does to set a reminder I never used the reminder on sky+ unless both tuners were already in use.

So reminders are a nice feature, but one of the least important once you have TiVo IMHO


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I did record the England Germany world cup games!
But it's kind of hard not to know what time they are on. I watched them almost live but didn't really need a reminder as the amount of publicity telling you when it's on is hard to miss.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I must admit if your PVR is located close to a pub you have to watch some games live as you will hear the cheering from across the street!

We always watch apprentice recorded ( unless we are watching it the day before it is shown nationwide as part of the studio audience in Hammersmith studios).
Of course it becomes a priority to be the first thing to be watched to avoid finding out who got fired.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

Sadly the time when I need a reminder - when all tuners are in use- is unlikely to be implemented. Sky or TiVo are unlikely to want you to switch to a different device!
So sky+ doesn't let you set a reminder when you have 2 programs already set to record!

Hopefully TiVo will give us a feature that reminds us that the third program is scheduled to record on another TiVo if you have more than one TiVo and both tuners are in use.


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## Digital Fanatic (Feb 16, 2011)

Re: Programme reminders. This function may be introduced in the future, but isn't a priority.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

The Wishlist said:


> I'll give you an example: Marseille vs Man Utd on ITV 1 - I knew last weekend that the game was coming up and I also knew that I wanted to watch it live (like any football TV fan would), so I set the reminder at the weekend for that game and _every other football game_ throughout this week.
> 
> Why? So when I'm home after work later in the week, busy in the kitchen cooking dinner or being distracted doing something else, I won't forget that the football - the live football I wanted to watch - was on - via a on-screen reminder or by the reminder automatically changing the channel.


I think the last line I've quoted is the point.

If you set that to record, it would change the channel and you could watch it live.

(That's what I did with Marseille vs Man Utd on ITV 1; 
I watched the first half 15 minutes behind and watched the second half live.)

Admittedly, there would be no on-screen reminder, but how long do those remain on-screen?

And if you are "busy in the kitchen cooking dinner or being distracted doing something else" how will you see the reminder?

Won't you miss the kick-off?


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## The Wishlist (Dec 7, 2010)

ericd121 said:


> I think the last line I've quoted is the point.
> 
> And if you are "busy in the kitchen cooking dinner or being distracted doing something else" how will you see the reminder?
> 
> Won't you miss the kick-off?


Not if the reminder switches the channel, no.


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## Brangdon (Feb 9, 2001)

The Wishlist said:


> Not if the reminder switches the channel, no.


Which a recording would also do. It would seem sensible for a programme reminder to be in addition to recording it, rather than instead of.

I don't really object to the feature, although I don't care about live events myself. If I did, I would think that (a) setting a recording; (b) setting an alarm on my phone, would get me 90% of the way there, with the additional benefit that if I was in the kitchen I'd still get reminded to hurry up and complete whatever I was doing there.

The main thing I'd be missing is the convenience of setting the date and time from the TV Guide. That would be nice to have, but not important enough to influence a buy/don't-buy decision. (As an aside, what I think I'd really like is a way to use the TV Guide to send an SMS to my phone. Or possibly an app in the phone that knows TV schedules. Because the benefit of having the reminder in the phone seems so great, that's what I'd be focussing on. Not on on-screen TV reminders.)


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## Zaichik (Mar 21, 2002)

Brangdon said:


> Or possibly an app in the phone that knows TV schedules. Because the benefit of having the reminder in the phone seems so great


I have an ap on my Android phone that does just that.


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

The Wishlist said:


> Someone at Virgin and Sky must have the same feelings about this when programming their PVRs - why else would they waste time programming that functionality into V+ HD and Sky +/HD ?
> 
> What's so special about TiVo that all of a sudden, basic reminder functionality is now considered obsolete for a PVR?
> 
> (I recall asking you about 'Wishlist reminders', Carl, on DS)


TiVo is special relative to other PVRs because it has loads of unique features that facilitate a non-live tv mode. I record the latest episodes of news programmes automatically - TiVo auto- deletes old episodes without my intervention.

Lesser pvrs are esentially still geared upwards live tv watching so hang onto legacy reminders as they lack those other TiVo features.

In fact TiVo is superior for livetv watching purely due to the twin simultaneous live tv buffers IMHO. Once they sort out a quicker way to switch between tuners it will be sweet!
[/LIST]


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The others have reminders because the same interface is used on their non recording boxes, where reminders are useful. A dedicated recording system, like TiVo or MCE doesn't have reminders mainly because it never occurred to the designers that anyone would have any use for them!


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## simbeav (Mar 14, 2005)

Back on topic 

D'oh ! They rang and I didn't even think, just said yes.

A whole week to wait now


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