# Is COMCAST trying to put TIVO out of business (cable cards)



## scottfll954 (Jul 31, 2012)

I went to a Xfinity store today to get a cable card for a buddy so he can hook up one of my extra tivo roamio`s

I asked how much is the service fee we were quoted 9.99 for the card...

then asked how much is there DVR they said 10.00 .. and how much is a HD box they said 9.95..

So... 
Why you pay 9.99 for the cable card plus 12.99 for tivo service..

what happened the to the 3.50 a card plus a rebate...

at these prices tivo wont have much any new signups


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

scottfll954 said:


> I went to a Xfinity store today to get a cable card for a buddy so he can hook up one of my extra tivo roamio`s
> 
> I asked how much is the service fee we were quoted 9.99 for the card...
> 
> ...


As far as I know, the first CableCARD has always been free of charge and the second one use to be $1.99 but I checked my bill and I'm getting charged $1.50 on the second CableCARD.

EDIT: - Scratch this sentence 'I also get charged a $2.99 digital outlet fee but get a $2.50 owned equipment rebate (on both units) so it's a net some of $2.48/mo for me for 2 CableCARDs'

I was currious about the $2.99 digital outlet fee as I wondered if the SD Convert boxes that I got for the 'Analog Channels' that I was never supposed to get a digital outlet fee for (or so I was told) when they were offered when our area got moved all the Analog cable channels to digital. It turns out I was getting $2.99 outlet fees for those boxes and I wasn't even using them. Doh!!! So the reality is I'm getting paid to have my TiVo Boxes - two -$2.50 charges for owned equipment and one $1.50 charge for 2nd CableCARD puts me at -$3.50 on my bill for having two TiVo's


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

HD fees and DVR fees only apply to Comcast DVRs and not to Tivos.

Unfortunately different Comcast regions can be inconsistent and you may have to escalate.


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## scottfll954 (Jul 31, 2012)

I called too and got the same figures..

I guess in Southflorida.. since they are monopoly they can take advantage of the consumer


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## bob61 (Apr 23, 2002)

Once you use a Comcast DVR you'll be glad to pay for TiVo. I used to have Comcast box, really laggy and the UI sucked. 

However I only need one cable card with my setup, one Roamio and 4 minis. I don't pay for the cable card either. I also have 1tb drive in my Roamio, Comcast only has 500gb at best.


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## scottfll954 (Jul 31, 2012)

I agree tivo 100 times better then comcast...

comcast just cant get there act together with there pricing

I use a plus and a minis too.. works like a charm..!!

Unfortunately joe public will not get to try a tivo due to the pricing .. or due to the lack of comcast consistency 

majority of the public (at least in south florida) will look the the DOLLAR amounts and say COMCAST DVR please...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

scottfll954 said:


> I guess in Southflorida.. since they are monopoly they can take advantage of the consumer


Cable companies are a monopoly pretty much everywhere in the US. Very few locations actually have competing cable companies in the same market.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

zalusky said:


> HD fees and DVR fees only apply to Comcast DVRs and not to Tivos.
> 
> Unfortunately different Comcast regions can be inconsistent and you may have to escalate.


I get charged $1 for each cable card over the first one, but I also now have to pay a new fee of $3.25 called a* Broadcast TV Fee * . If Comcast cant get you one way then they will just add another fee.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

rainwater said:


> Cable companies are a monopoly pretty much everywhere in the US. Very few locations actually have competing cable companies in the same market.


Anywhere there's Verizon (or Frontier) FIOS there is competition. FIOS is always the second cable company in any neighborhood. Many people have AT&T Uverse, which is also a second source for TV but it's not considered cable so they don't offer cable card. And, of course, everyone has Direct or Dish available. So there is competition in every place in the U.S.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

BruinGuy said:


> everyone has Direct or Dish available. So there is competition in every place in the U.S.


About 12 years ago Dish came to my home to see if I could get their service, and the trees and other things blocked the signal, the Tech said no, today it may be different.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

BruinGuy said:


> Anywhere there's Verizon (or Frontier) FIOS there is competition. FIOS is always the second cable company in any neighborhood. Many people have AT&T Uverse, which is also a second source for TV but it's not considered cable so they don't offer cable card. And, of course, everyone has Direct or Dish available. *So there is competition in every place in the U.S.*


That would be nice, but it's just not the reality for many. Alternative providers haven't made great inroads into, for example, metropolitan markets already locked up by one of the big cable companies. Where I live (a decent-sized city), Comcast is the sole cable provider. There's no FiOS, no AT&T Uverse. And while, theoretically, "everybody has Direct or Dish available," in reality the tall trees around my house and many of the neighborhoods here make it a poor choice for many of us. (One of my neighbors is actually a satellite installation subcontractor, and says he regularly comes across homes where he can't get reliable sat signals....including his own!)

My parents, on the other hand, have two houses: one where satellite is _the _only option, one where Comcast is.

All the poor PQ and arbitrary fees and bad service and clueless techs and other frustrations that get discussed a lot around here.....many of us have to deal with that crap because we don't have any other options, and our providers know it. It's the very definition of a non-competitive marketplace.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> That would be nice, but it's just not the reality for many. Alternative providers haven't made great inroads into, for example, metropolitan markets already locked up by one of the big cable companies. Where I live (a decent-sized city), Comcast is the sole cable provider. There's no FiOS, no AT&T Uverse. And while, theoretically, "everybody has Direct or Dish available," in reality the tall trees around my house and many of the neighborhoods here make it a poor choice for many of us. (One of my neighbors is actually a satellite installation subcontractor, and says he regularly comes across homes where he can't get reliable sat signals....including his own!)
> 
> My parents, on the other hand, have two houses: one where satellite is _the _only option, one where Comcast is.
> 
> All the poor PQ and arbitrary fees and bad service and clueless techs and other frustrations that get discussed a lot around here.....many of us have to deal with that crap because we don't have any other options, and our providers know it. It's the very definition of a non-competitive marketplace.


+1. Well stated. One has to concede that competition, even if it exists for a household, is VERY limited for MVPD services.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> That would be nice, but it's just not the reality for many. Alternative providers haven't made great inroads into, for example, metropolitan markets already locked up by one of the big cable companies. Where I live (a decent-sized city), Comcast is the sole cable provider. There's no FiOS, no AT&T Uverse. And while, theoretically, "everybody has Direct or Dish available," in reality the tall trees around my house and many of the neighborhoods here make it a poor choice for many of us. (One of my neighbors is actually a satellite installation subcontractor, and says he regularly comes across homes where he can't get reliable sat signals....including his own!)
> 
> My parents, on the other hand, have two houses: one where satellite is _the _only option, one where Comcast is.
> 
> All the poor PQ and arbitrary fees and bad service and clueless techs and other frustrations that get discussed a lot around here.....many of us have to deal with that crap because we don't have any other options, and our providers know it. It's the very definition of a non-competitive marketplace.


The whole competition thing is cable company propaganda. They want you to think there is competition, when in reality there is not. Taken as a whole the cable companies offerings are priced in such a way that it isn't economically feasible for someone to have sat and cable internet without paying much more than if they just had cable. It's a confusing mess that the cable companies rely upon to keep the regulators away.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> That would be nice, but it's just not the reality for many. Alternative providers haven't made great inroads into, for example, metropolitan markets already locked up by one of the big cable companies.


One could argue that the Los Angeles area is a reasonably large metropolitan area.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

BruinGuy said:


> One could argue that the Los Angeles area is a reasonably large metropolitan area.


One rightly could. I didn't say NO metropolitan area.

If _you_, in _your _city, have a variety of provider options, and they compete with one another on content, price, and service, hey, good for you! You get to shop for service the way most people get to shop for, say, cell phones & plans. But for far more Americans, the experience is more similar to buying electric service....there's one number you call and one company you buy from and, if you want the service, you pay whatever they charge. (I _would _say there's one price you pay, but with all the inconsistent fees and cryptic charges, I don't think that's the case.)


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> (I _would _say there's one price you pay, but with all the inconsistent fees and cryptic charges, I don't think that's the case.)


Yea, that's the most interesting thing about Comcast. They have all sorts of different "plans" and "tiers" and such, but they can't actually seem to tell you which channels you are supposed to get in any of them, so other than the price, you are never sure what is different between the plans or what you are paying for .


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> One rightly could. I didn't say NO metropolitan area.
> 
> If _you_, in _your _city, have a variety of provider options, and they compete with one another on content, price, and service, hey, good for you! You get to shop for service the way most people get to shop for, say, cell phones & plans. But for far more Americans, the experience is more similar to buying electric service....there's one number you call and one company you buy from and, if you want the service, you pay whatever they charge. (I _would _say there's one price you pay, but with all the inconsistent fees and cryptic charges, I don't think that's the case.)


Yeah, it's strange how the rates vary in cities with Google fiber compared with BFE.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> One rightly could. I didn't say NO metropolitan area.
> 
> If _you_, in _your _city, have a variety of provider options, and they compete with one another on content, price, and service, hey, good for you! You get to shop for service the way most people get to shop for, say, cell phones & plans. But for far more Americans, the experience is more similar to buying electric service....there's one number you call and one company you buy from and, if you want the service, you pay whatever they charge. (I _would _say there's one price you pay, but with all the inconsistent fees and cryptic charges, I don't think that's the case.)


I don't think having multiple cable companies helps with the price much. I think I'm paying the same as most anyone else. However, if you call the cable company and ask for retention and tell them you're leaving unless you get better rates you normally get better rates, at least for a while. And, since everyone has the ability to move to something else such as Dish and Direct TV this strategy works nationwide.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Comcast is telling you it's time to get an antenna


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## zroger73 (Oct 1, 2012)

In my area, Suddenlink charges $14/mo. for a TiVo including service. Over three years, that's $504.00.

- Vs. -

$199 for the TiVo + $39.99 for the 3-year warranty + $14.99 monthly for the service = $778.63.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

BruinGuy said:


> Anywhere there's Verizon (or Frontier) FIOS there is competition. FIOS is always the second cable company in any neighborhood. Many people have AT&T Uverse, which is also a second source for TV but it's not considered cable so they don't offer cable card. And, of course, everyone has Direct or Dish available. So there is competition in every place in the U.S.


Considering that FIOS is only available to 15% of US households, and Uverse is available to 20% of US households, I'd have to say that argument doesn't hold water.

And Sat is dependent on Line of Sight access, HOA restrictions, Appartment/Condo restrictions, etc...

While these may be available to you. They're not an option for me


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

CCourtney said:


> Considering that FIOS is only available to 15% of US households, and Uverse is available to 20% of US households, I'd have to say that argument doesn't hold water.
> 
> And Sat is dependent on Line of Sight access, HOA restrictions, Appartment/Condo restrictions, etc...
> 
> While these may be available to you. They're not an option for me


Yes this is true. In California, and probably other states as well, HOAs can't restrict the use of Satellites dishes. But even if your LOS or HOA restricts the use of a dish, Comcast doesn't know that when you try to negotiate a better rate.


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## beartrap (Nov 8, 2005)

BruinGuy said:


> In California, and probably other states as well, HOAs can't restrict the use of Satellites dishes.


First of all, it's a federal thing, not state (Google "OTARD"), and secondly, HOAs and condo/apartment owners can restrict the use of satellite dishes, depending on the circumstances of the location and installation.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

zroger73 said:


> In my area, Suddenlink charges $14/mo. for a TiVo including service. Over three years, that's $504.00.
> 
> - Vs. -
> 
> $199 for the TiVo + $39.99 for the 3-year warranty + $14.99 monthly for the service = $778.63.


- Vs. -

$199 for the TiVo + $400 PLS (discounted) = $599. BUT: You own the PLS'ed DVR, which will have a resale value of, say, $300. $599 - $300 = $299.

And at $14.99 p.m. for your provider's DVR, the equation becomes even more favorable for purchasing the TiVo with each passing month.


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## zroger73 (Oct 1, 2012)

chiguy50 said:


> - Vs. -
> 
> $199 for the TiVo + $400 PLS (discounted) = $599. BUT: You own the PLS'ed DVR, which will have a resale value of, say, $300. $599 - $300 = $299.
> 
> And at $14.99 p.m. for your provider's DVR, the equation becomes even more favorable for purchasing the TiVo with each passing month.


...unless it breaks or becomes obsolete - both of which WILL eventually happen. The cable company will instantly replace it at no cost instead of having to pay TiVo a $149 replacement fee for the device PLUS the lifetime service transfer fee (whatever it may be at the time - currently $150). As time goes on, the deal leans even more in favor of a rented unit from the cable company as it includes a "lifetime warranty" and no-cost upgrades any time a new model is released.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

The FCC says that typical rental fee is $2-4, I'm not sure if they specify a cap.

But they can't charge you for equipment that you don't have (i.e if a package price includes a box, they have to credit you the advertised box rental fee).

https://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

zroger73 said:


> ...unless it breaks or becomes obsolete - both of which WILL eventually happen. The cable company will instantly replace it at no cost instead of having to pay TiVo a $149 replacement fee for the device PLUS the lifetime service transfer fee (whatever it may be at the time - currently $150). As time goes on, the deal leans even more in favor of a rented unit from the cable company as it includes a "lifetime warranty" and no-cost upgrades any time a new model is released.


If you are worried about it breaking, a 3 year extended warranty is pretty cheap. As far as going obsolete, there are LOTS of TiVo HDs still in use and these units are around 6 or 7 years old. Most cable companies are still handing out similar age equipment to new customers (the main reason more cable systems haven't switched to MPEG-4 is all the MPEG-2 only STBs they have). So, if having the latest state of the art hardware is important to you, there is even MORE reason to buy your own hardware.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> $400 PLS (discounted)


How does one obtain the discount? I've tried via chat and on a phone call and so far they say no.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

zroger73 said:


> ...unless it breaks or becomes obsolete - both of which WILL eventually happen. The cable company will instantly replace it at no cost instead of having to pay TiVo a $149 replacement fee for the device PLUS the lifetime service transfer fee (whatever it may be at the time - currently $150). As time goes on, the deal leans even more in favor of a rented unit from the cable company as it includes a "lifetime warranty" and no-cost upgrades any time a new model is released.





Diana Collins said:


> If you are worried about it breaking, a 3 year extended warranty is pretty cheap. As far as going obsolete, there are LOTS of TiVo HDs still in use and these units are around 6 or 7 years old. Most cable companies are still handing out similar age equipment to new customers (the main reason more cable systems haven't switched to MPEG-4 is all the MPEG-2 only STBs they have). So, if having the latest state of the art hardware is important to you, there is even MORE reason to buy your own hardware.


I personally feel the reliability is fairly solid. Yeah, my 2009 TiVo HD just died, but my 2007 TiVo HD is still going so that's one about 5.5yrs old and another that's 8yrs old. My experience, and statics would imply that the vast majority if Electronics will either die in the first year under normal warranty or last > 5yrs. I've never had any AV equipment (TVs, AV Receivers, DVD/BR Players, DVRs, Game Consoles, ...) die in the 1-5yr range. I've had a probably 5 items die in the 1yr warranty, and the vast majority last > 10yrs.

If you're really paranoid, buy the 3yr waranty - I'll never do it. I could have spent thousands of dollars w/o ever recouping $1 from it if I bought extended warranties on electronics. I'd rather have that money in hand, and if something does happen to crap out in that window, bite the bullet and replace it.

This IMHO is much better than the guarantee that you through money away by renting lower quality cable company equipment, that has fewer features and crappy UI. I've got the Xfinity X1 DVR right now, but only because it was part of a promotional package and for the time being I'm not getting charged a fee, once the 2yr promotion period (managed to work a 6mo promotional rate into a 2yr promotional rate  ) is up, it's going back to Comcast/Xfinity.

I can tell you that I prefer my 8yr old TiVo HD box over X1 DVR. And I expect to really love my Roamio (waiting on 3TB HDD to arrive, but should get setup tomorrow) even more.

And for what it's worth, if Comcast thinks you damaged the device, they will charge you damage fees. It happens more than you'd expect.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

BruinGuy said:


> How does one obtain the discount? I've tried via chat and on a phone call and so far they say no.


You have to be an existing subscriber. Once you're in you're in for life.

When I bought my first TiVo HD back in 2007, they had a moratorium on lifetime subscriptions, so I had to get one with a 1yr subscription ($99 IIRC) after that they offered me a $299 lifetime. Back then it was $399 lifetime and $299 discounted for existing subscribers.

Not 100% certain if the discount is only for lifetime subscribers or not.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

BruinGuy said:


> .....But even if your LOS or HOA restricts the use of a dish, Comcast doesn't know that when you try to negotiate a better rate.


I think you're assigning Comcast considerably more benevolence than they deserve!  It sounds like you've been a _very _lucky customer....not only do you have a wide palette of service providers vying for your business, but Comcast bends over backwards offering you discounts to retain your business! That's great for you, but you're simply wrong if you think this is a universal, or even common, experience. There's a reason virtually every forum with provider-related discussions has countless complaints about price, service, and lack of competition....and precious few posts from happy, satisfied customers.

Speaking of universal experience, you mentioned earlier that you think you're "paying the same as most anyone else." Just curious, how much do you think that is?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

zroger73 said:


> ...unless it breaks or becomes obsolete - both of which WILL eventually happen. The cable company will instantly replace it at no cost instead of having to pay TiVo a $149 replacement fee for the device PLUS the lifetime service transfer fee (whatever it may be at the time - currently $150). As time goes on, the deal leans even more in favor of a rented unit from the cable company as it includes a "lifetime warranty" and no-cost upgrades any time a new model is released.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who figured that out. A 90-day warranty for electronics is pathetic. No matter how I do the math, I pay less and get more with my FIOS box than with a Roamio.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> A 90-day warranty for electronics is pathetic.


Couldn't agree more. I really think TiVo's warranty policies suggest a strategy to steer buyers away from lifetime service. I'd assumed that was just about better monetizing their customer base, but comments like yours make me wonder if it's also about competing with the cable providers.

It wouldn't surprise me if they want to move toward eventually eliminating the lifetime service option.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

BruinGuy said:


> How does one obtain the discount? I've tried via chat and on a phone call and so far they say no.


If it still works (there have been reports it's dead), you can put PLSR in the discount code box when signing up for service via TiVo.com. This will knock $100 off lifetime.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Couldn't agree more. I really think TiVo's warranty policies suggest a strategy to steer buyers away from lifetime service. I'd assumed that was just about better monetizing their customer base, but comments like yours make me wonder if it's also about competing with the cable providers. It wouldn't surprise me if they want to move toward eventually eliminating the lifetime service option.


Yes, that IS what they're doing. They've already tried getting rid of lifetime service, but brought it back due to the backlash of complaints.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> If it still works (there have been reports it's dead), you can put PLSR in the discount code box when signing up for service via TiVo.com. This will knock $100 off lifetime.


Wait....? Do you mean that $100 discount off lifetime that was always available on, I think, your 2nd through 5th boxes? They're possibly discontinuing _that?_


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

Sorry....didn't see your last post.

Okay, all my suspicions are now officially confirmed...... This sucks.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> If it still works (there have been reports it's dead), you can put PLSR in the discount code box when signing up for service via TiVo.com. This will knock $100 off lifetime.


Thanks! That worked. Total was $385 as I had paid for 1 month already.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Wait....? Do you mean that $100 discount off lifetime that was always available on, I think, your 2nd through 5th boxes? They're possibly discontinuing that?





b-ball-fanatic said:


> Sorry....didn't see your last post. Okay, all my suspicions are now officially confirmed...... This sucks.


No , that's MSD $100 off Lifetime for your second and subsequent boxes. I'm talking about the PLSR $100 off discount, which is a separate one.


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## b-ball-fanatic (Aug 5, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> No , that's MSD $100 off Lifetime for your second and subsequent boxes. I'm talking about the PLSR $100 off discount, which is a separate one.


Oh ok. Phew! What does PLSR stand for?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

b-ball-fanatic said:


> Oh ok. Phew! What does PLSR stand for?


I think:

Product Lifetime Service Rebate


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

zroger73 said:


> ...unless it breaks or becomes obsolete - both of which WILL eventually happen. The cable company will instantly replace it at no cost instead of having to pay TiVo a $149 replacement fee for the device PLUS the lifetime service transfer fee (whatever it may be at the time - currently $150). As time goes on, the deal leans even more in favor of a rented unit from the cable company as it includes a "lifetime warranty" and no-cost upgrades any time a new model is released.


There's no question that there are advantages to renting a box from the cable company, but the overwhelming majority of posters to this forum agree that the best prospective deal from a financial standpoint is almost always to buy w/PLS.

In most cases you can amortize the acquisition costs in less than three years--sometimes as little as two years. It is highly unlikely (statistically speaking) that your new TiVo will break or become obsolete in that time frame. And if your cable company's box is a non-TiVo POS, the decision is even more of a no-brainer!


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> There's no question that there are advantages to renting a box from the cable company, but the overwhelming majority of posters to this forum agree that the best prospective deal from a financial standpoint is almost always to buy w/PLS.
> 
> In most cases you can amortize the acquisition costs in less than three years--sometimes as little as two years. It is highly unlikely (statistically speaking) that your new TiVo will break or become obsolete in that time frame. And if your cable company's box is a non-TiVo POS, the decision is even more of a no-brainer!


I'm probably in a small minority. I have both Tivo and a Verizon FIOS whole house DVR. Why? Because my wife likes the DVR and she doesn't want my recordings clogging up her play list. I prefer the Tivo experience to the Verizon DVR, it's far superior in my opinion.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

BruinGuy said:


> I'm probably in a small minority. I have both Tivo and a Verizon FIOS whole house DVR. Why? Because my wife likes the DVR and she doesn't want my recordings clogging up her play list. I prefer the Tivo experience to the Verizon DVR, it's far superior in my opinion.


I suspect your situation is not so unusual. I can envision plenty of scenarios where it would promote harmony for spouses or children to have their own separate viewing/storage capability.

It's a not inconsiderable additional expense but probably worth it to avoid internecine warfare.


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