# New "zero upfront" pricing costs effect on warranty



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

With the new 1, 2, 3 year "zero upfront" pricing plans announced, are the warranties on the boxes tied to the commitment length? 

For example, if I sub for a box at $16.95/per for three years, does Tivo provide another box if it dies 18 months in?


Also - would I be correct in assuming that the new pricing plans do not impact existing subs at $12.95/$6.95 per?


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Also - would I be correct in assuming that the new pricing plans do not impact existing subs at $12.95/$6.95 per?


Let's take the easy one first -- you are correct, the new pricing plans do not affect your existing subscriptions ($12.95 or $6.95).



jfh3 said:


> With the new 1, 2, 3 year "zero upfront" pricing plans announced, are the warranties on the boxes tied to the commitment length?
> 
> For example, if I sub for a box at $16.95/per for three years, does Tivo provide another box if it dies 18 months in?


The warranty period is unchanged -- new boxes comes with a 90 day warranty for parts and 1 year warranty for labor.

However, don't worry -- you'll be covered. If your DVR malfunctions during your service commitment, we will be offering DVR warranty replacement for a reasonable fee even if it is out of warranty. I can't announce the exact price at this time, but will do so as soon as I can.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## davevt98 (Dec 9, 2004)

The warranty period is unchanged -- new boxes comes with a 90 day warranty for parts and 1 year warranty for labor.

However, don't worry -- you'll be covered. If your DVR malfunctions during your service commitment, we will be offering DVR warranty replacement for a reasonable fee even if it is out of warranty. I can't announce the exact price at this time, but will do so as soon as I can.

Best regards,
Stephen[/QUOTE]

How is this right? If you are only paying for service and the rental is included, why would I have to pay for a replacement box if it breaks???

All cable companies offer free replacements if you cable box or dvr fails. Why is tivo taking a different stance?

What is the benefits of this increased pricing plan if I cant even get a replacement tivo for no fee if it dies?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

davevt98 said:


> How is this right? If you are only paying for service and the rental is included, why would I have to pay for a replacement box if it breaks???


 Yeah, that makes no sense, really. Pay nothing for a BRAND NEW TiVo... but if it breaks, you'll have to pay for a refurb replacement. 

But I think the cellphone companies do the same thing. I know Sprint has an optional $3/month insurance fee which gives you free repairs. Maybe that would be something TiVo should use too.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

The benefit is no upfront cost for the box that you own.

You're comparing to a cable company plan where they own the box. What's different here is that you own the box instead.

So, just like a cell phone plan where if I drop my cell phone and have to replace it, I will have to pay for that replacement cell phone. Or, I can work with my cell phone company to replace it under whatever terms they offer -- but I don't know off the top of my head know of any cell phone company where the replacement is 100% free (absence some separate fee-based insurance program).


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## Prozium (Sep 20, 2004)

> How is this right? If you are only paying for service and the rental is included, why would I have to pay for a replacement box if it breaks???
> 
> All cable companies offer free replacements if you cable box or dvr fails. Why is tivo taking a different stance?
> 
> What is the benefits of this increased pricing plan if I cant even get a replacement tivo for no fee if it dies?


Well you never actually own the cable box. You pay monthly to rent the box. With tivo, after the initial 1/2/3 year commitment you actually own the tivo box and can resubscribe with the hopefully lower "service-only" plans.


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## juststained (Nov 2, 2005)

As far as i know Proz, unfortutanetly once your service agreement ends you pay the same monthly as you were paying.

So if you have the 2 yr @ 18.95 your monthly continues at 18.95.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

juststained said:


> As far as i know Proz, unfortutanetly once your service agreement ends you pay the same monthly as you were paying.
> 
> So if you have the 2 yr @ 18.95 your monthly continues at 18.95.


TivoOpsMgr answers this another thread. You can then reduce your monthly rate to the lower 'service only' rate in effect at that time - for a 1 year commitment.

J


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## astroglide (Jun 20, 2005)

> What's different here is that you own the box instead.


the box is effectively worthless without service, so owning it is pretty useless in my mind if you're tethered to a payment plan.

i feel like i OWN my s2 because i own the box *and i have a lifetime sub*. it will work forever, and i don't owe anybody anything unless it breaks.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

astroglide, :up:

But once again, it's exactly the same as with cellphones - they too are useless without a "subscription".

I guess TiVo bought the cellphone model hook line and sinker.


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## loganizzi (Aug 9, 2003)

astroglide said:


> the box is effectively worthless without service, so owning it is pretty useless in my mind if you're tethered to a payment plan.
> 
> i feel like i OWN my s2 because i own the box *and i have a lifetime sub*. it will work forever, and i don't owe anybody anything unless it breaks.


EXACTLY - this is what I think TiVo fails to realize. They are modeling themselves after the cell phone model, which is the worst pricing model ever.

Recurring subscription based models are horrible. I'm tired of everyone wanting a couple of dollars from my wallet every month - cable, satellite tv, satellite radio, mp3 music subscriptions, internet access and now TiVo.

Well to quote Howard Beale - "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore".


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

juststained said:


> As far as i know Proz, unfortutanetly once your service agreement ends you pay the same monthly as you were paying.
> 
> So if you have the 2 yr @ 18.95 your monthly continues at 18.95.


Actually, Proz is correct. You do have to call us, but you can switch to service-only pricing after the terms of the commitment are fulfilled. But you're correct, if you don't call, you'll continue to pay the same monthly fee each month.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

loganizzi said:


> EXACTLY - this is what I think TiVo fails to realize. They are modeling themselves after the cell phone model, which is the worst pricing model ever.
> 
> Recurring subscription based models are horrible. I'm tired of everyone wanting a couple of dollars from my wallet every month - cable, satellite tv, satellite radio, mp3 music subscriptions, internet access and now TiVo.
> 
> Well to quote Howard Beale - "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore".


Wow, a _Network_ reference, very nice.

I hear you and I'm sorry you feel that way.

Good news! You can purchase Product Lifetime between now and Wednesday next week and avoid all monthly fees for the life of your box. After next week, still good news! There are prepay options with attractive pricing, so you don't have to pay a monthly fee.

Or, if you don't mind monthly fees, after next week, you can go to TiVo.com and get an 80-hour DVR for zero cents.

With those cable, satellite tv, satellite radio, mp3 music subscriptions, and internet access things, you may have to pay for hardware AND an installation fee AND a monthly fee. Now with TiVo you can EITHER pay nothing upfront, OR you can prepay and avoid monthly fees.

To quote the TiVo guy, "It's all about choice."

Best regards,
Stephen


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

To be honest, I have wondered why TiVo didn't go to the cell phone model a LONG time ago - it makes much more sense, IMO.

But I didn't think they'd raise the monthly fee (which is already higher than the competition) or tying old boxes to 1-year commitments when doing so.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

What exactly is 'service only' as apposed to another subscription you have?


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## loganizzi (Aug 9, 2003)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Wow, a _Network_ reference, very nice.
> 
> I hear you and I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I've been a lifetime subscriber for about 3 years now. I'm mostly upset about what _was_ going to be my next TiVo purchase (the S3). With these new "choices" that are available I've just made the decision to go another route when I've outlived my S2.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Mike after you have paid out your commitment (and paid for the subsidized box) I imagine the sub price goes down.


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## RaGINaR (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Wow, a _Network_ reference, very nice.
> 
> I hear you and I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> ...


I just can't figure out why you would do away with the lifetime subscription model. Looks like it's time to start looking at MythTV a little more seriously. I mean really, I didn't mind dropping $600 to make my "tivo" what it should be with a lifetime commitment. However, now that it's basically a rental (without the benefits of it being rental mind you), it has lost it's zeal.

To be honest, Tivo's problem all along has been the "subscription". You won't lure more people into renting your product this way.

Good luck, MythTV forums anyone?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> But you're correct, if you don't call, you'll continue to pay the same monthly fee each month.
> ...
> There are prepay options with attractive pricing, so you don't have to pay a monthly fee.


Very COOL  

All I need to do is get a box with 1 year prepaid for $224 and as long as I never call TiVo, I never pay anything more in the future.

Nicely done. :up: :up: :up:


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Wow, a _Network_ reference, very nice.


 :up:



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> To quote the TiVo guy, "It's all about choice."


Stephen,

Will all TiVo boxes that have been refurbished/repacked/used, or in any other condition than brand new, factory fresh, be clearly labeled?

Thanks!


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## bud8man (Feb 13, 2004)

So no multi user discounts? What happens when my 140 hr unit sub is up? I bought a unit with almost 2 years of service at $6.95 a month.
What kind of options do I have?
Start a new unit and choose how long I want service on it?
Makes going for the 80 hr unit with my 25K points useless huh?
Mini iPod here I come....


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Will all TiVo boxes that have been refurbished/repacked/used, or in any other condition than brand new, factory fresh, be clearly labeled?


Indeed -- check the carton for the product label and description. The SKUs for factory renewed units is different.

For example, a brand new 80 hour standalone DVR is known by SKU R54080 (or model R540080). A factory renewed version would be R5408B (or model R54008B).

Usually, though, they have plain brown cardboard cartons, so they're hard to confuse.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> To quote the TiVo guy, "It's all about choice."


You walked right into this one..

It's about choice -- except for the choice NOT to pay monthly.

Raise the lifetime fee, fine. But at least give it as an option.

Heck, I admit that the lifetime price raise from $200 to $250 (which I admit I *missed*, and thus paid the higher rate) was what got me into gear to actually buy a Tivo.

But not offering lifetime is really putting the brakes on my ideas of buying more Tivos. I am a VERY big fan of Tivo. There are tons and tons of things I wish it had too (e.g. why I bought a non-Tivo hard drive/DVD recorder to use along with my Tivos) that it doesn't.. But for what it DOES do, it does great.. But I will really have to weigh the pricing options when S3 comes out. Even something like $1K including lifetime would not be completely outrageous. Not having lifetime at all is.

(Though I've actually thought lifetime would go away for a long time. IMHO, it really was only to compete with ReplayTV in the first place.)

Another analogy is free drink refills. I'm much more likely to buy a drink at a place that has free drink refills, even if the price ends up the same as what it would have been if I paid individually. But I _never_ buy another drink where I pay per glass.. (and lately drink water instead) I want the option of knowing how much I'm going to pay when I buy the unit, even if it seems like a lot.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

MickeS said:


> But I didn't think they'd raise the monthly fee (which is already higher than the competition) or tying old boxes to 1-year commitments when doing so.


Huh? We did not raise the monthly fee (the first and only time we did that was 2002, when it went from $9.95 to $12.95). Service-only monthly pricing is still only $12.95 per month. The 1-year commitment was introduced last year.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

What I meant was that I thought TiVo would stick to the $12.95 fee even if boxes were given away for free. I just figured that the commitment period for new boxes would be extended to 2 or 3 years.

I didn't know that the 1-year commitment applied to all subscriptions, whether they are brand new or not. IMO, that's pretty much the only thing that separates the new pricing model from the cell phone model. TiVo even managed to emulate the pre-paid options.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

bud8man said:


> So no multi user discounts?


Not true -- see the other thread, but:

(a) Existing MSD subscriptions are unaffected.
(b) You can still activate monthly service-only for $6.95 if you have an existing full-priced contract.
(c) The new bundle options and prepaid service-only options are not eligible for MSD, but they are full-priced so they do qualify any other monthly service-only contracts to automatically switch from $12.95 to $6.95.



> What happens when my 140 hr unit sub is up? I bought a unit with almost 2 years of service at $6.95 a month. What kind of options do I have?


It will stay at $6.95 indefinitely, assuming you still have a different full-price unit (such as a product lifetime unit) on your account.


> Start a new unit and choose how long I want service on it?


No need.


> Makes going for the 80 hr unit with my 25K points useless huh?


Not at all! When it arrives, activate it monthly for $6.95 per month (again, assuming you have a different full-priced unit on your account).


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

mattack said:


> You walked right into this one..
> 
> It's about choice -- except for the choice NOT to pay monthly.


Yes, except that we no longer (financially-speaking) have the choice to offer Lifetime at a price consumers would find reasonable.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

Ah, MickeS, now I see what you were saying.


MickeS said:


> I didn't know that the 1-year commitment applied to all subscriptions, whether they are brand new or not.


Yes, except that existing monthly subscriptions that don't have a commitment period still don't have a commitment period for as long as the contract is not canceled. They're grandfathered.


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## TiVoStephen (Jun 27, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> All I need to do is get a box with 1 year prepaid for $224 and as long as I never call TiVo, I never pay anything more in the future.


I think there were some emoticons and possibly some sarcasm here, but I just wanted to say that this isn't correct, you'll pay the monthly equivalent of the prepay tier you chose:
* $16.95/month or $469 prepaid with 3-year commitment
* $18.95/month or $369 prepaid with 2-year commitment
* $19.95/month or $224 prepaid with 1-year commitment
So, if you prepay $224, then after 12 months you will be billed $19.95 per month until you call us a choose a new service-only option.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, except that we no longer (financially-speaking) have the choice to offer Lifetime at a price consumers would find reasonable.


 Looking at the trending on the pricing, sell a box with lifetime for $549-$599. That's the range a 4-year deal would fall in, and the expected service life has always been considered 4 years in the past. A lot of people paid MORE than $599 for a TiVo and lifetime, in years past. Offer lifetime alone for $499 or something like that - I bet a lot of people would still bite. (I would.)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I think there were some emoticons and possibly some sarcasm here, but I just wanted to say that this isn't correct, you'll pay the monthly equivalent of the prepay tier you chose:
> * $16.95/month or $469 prepaid with 3-year commitment
> * $18.95/month or $369 prepaid with 2-year commitment
> * $19.95/month or $224 prepaid with 1-year commitment
> So, if you prepay $224, then after 12 months you will be billed $19.95 per month until you call us a choose a new service-only option.


Actually, it was "true" as of the time I posted it with those emoticons  based on what had been said to that point by you. OOOPPS 

I have a real bad taste in my mouth about the concept that someone has to remember to call TiVo to drop their price by as much as $7/mo.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

I suspect that TiVo has realized that lifetime on the box means pretty much forever theses days. Most parts on a TiVo can be replaced. 

I further suspect that they can not risk offering the advanced internet features they want to on the series 3 without knowing they can meet those costs going forward. 

If advanced internet features are given as part of the base cost then at some point lifetime boxes start to cost TiVo real money. We are no longer just talking about guide data that does not have that much extra cost per user. If 5 years from now some vender TiVo works with for an internet service raises the price to TiVo they can raise the price for the service. If to many people have lifetime at that point TiVo would be in real trouble. 

I hate the fact that lifetime is going away. I have 2 boxes both with lifetime. I suspect however that the only way they could take the risk of continuing to offer lifetime would be to offer it at a price that no one would want it at. At that kind of price you might get more bad press on the price then you would on having it go away.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> I have a real bad taste in my mouth about the concept that someone has to remember to call TiVo to drop their price by as much as $7/mo.


I have to agree that not dropping the price without a phone call seams pretty sleazy to me.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

segaily said:


> I suspect that TiVo has realized that lifetime on the box means pretty much forever theses days. Most parts on a TiVo can be replaced.
> 
> I further suspect that they can not risk offering the advanced internet features they want to on the series 3 without knowing they can meet those costs going forward.
> 
> ...


TiVo more and more will be getting revenue beyond the subscription. So a lifetime sub doesn't mean zero revenue. Is there risk, sure, but that's business and their old model was good enough.

See what you think after reading this... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290594


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> The warranty period is unchanged -- new boxes comes with a 90 day warranty for parts and 1 year warranty for labor.
> 
> However, don't worry -- you'll be covered. If your DVR malfunctions during your service commitment, we will be offering DVR warranty replacement for a reasonable fee even if it is out of warranty. I can't announce the exact price at this time, but will do so as soon as I can.


I can't quite wrap my hands around this one. The cell phone model is not exactly a paragon of virtue.

Any costs above the $12.95 service fee is going to be considered to be "going towards the hardware" whether that was intended or not. I know you haven't announced replacement pricing yet, but I would feel better to know that the purchase is adequately protected during the commitment. At least, any cost paid towards hardware up to the point of death be credited against the cost of the replacement. Anything else feels like double-dipping.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

> So, if you prepay $224, then after 12 months you will be billed $19.95 per month until you call us a choose a new service-only option.


What exactly would be the difference between paying $19.95 a month and a new "service-only" option aside from $7.00???
Why would you want to go on the 2 or 3 year plans???


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## TerpBE (Jan 23, 2003)

> I have to agree that not dropping the price without a phone call seams pretty sleazy to me.


That's EXACTLY what I was going to post. It's almost like if you had your monthly car payment automatically deducted from your bank account, and then had to call once it was paid off or else it would keep being taken out.


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## tstout (Jul 16, 2003)

segaily said:


> I have to agree that not dropping the price without a phone call seams pretty sleazy to me.


AGREED!

I understand the loss of lifetime service plans. Obviously Tivo assumed that their boxes wouldn't be lasting as long as they do or they wouldn't have priced it as low as it was. $299 is reasonable for a box that dies after 3 years, but not for one that's still going strong after 5 or 6.

--

Personally, I'd like to see the following modifications/clarifications about the new pricing model:

1) AUTOMATICALLY convert contracts to the current monthly service-only price when the contract term is up. [If you don't do this you're just taking advantage of customers who don't know any better -- SHAME ON YOU! Yes, cell phone companies do this stuff all the time, but phone companies are evil and your customers have always considered Tivo one of the good guys. Good guys don't do crap like that.]

2) Offer pre-paid SERVICE ONLY contracts for 1, 2, and 3 year terms to replace the lost lifetime service. This way people who don't want another montlhy bill have that option even after their contract term has expired. You've already made the money on the box back during the initial contract term. The renewal contact should be less expensive; otherwise why shouldn't I just throw away the box and get a new one? Remember, profit is good, greed is bad; it's a fine line between the two.

3) Offer a Tivo trade-up plan whereby users can get a new box at the end of their current contact; that's essentially what you're doing now with the current plan, with renewals the same price as the initial contract. You should take what's currently a unattractive quirk in your pricing model and make it into a feature. BTW -- How does the priving model change for different model/series Tivos? Are you going to handle the series 3 with an up-front "step-up" fee or will the entire pricing scale be modified?

4) Replacement costs on a dead tivo within the original contact term should be free, but I'd settle for minimal (in the $20-25 range, not the $100-150 range i.e. cost of shipping & handling, not the cost of a new box).

5) The lack of any multi-room discounts is very discouraging and a big slap in the face to your best customers and most vocal advocates. There should at least still be some discount in the serivce-only options (can't really do that for new purchases, but once the initial term is up or if the user buys the equipment upfront, there should be some discount). It doesn't have to be a lot, but there should be a bone there somewhere.

_EDIT -- My mistake. Looks like service-only monthly pricing is still subject to the discount. Not clear on whether this applies to boxes that have fulfilled their initial contract or just those that are purchased upfront, however -- I guess it will be clear soon enough. (Hopefully both)._

Otherwise, the new pricing plans really don't seem that different from the old one over the long term (36-72 months) -- ignoring upfront hardware rebates and lifetime subscriptions (which really were a really bad business decision, but great for us consumers), total acquisition costs are comparable and 3-year prepaid is actually quite a bargain.


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## userbr (Mar 9, 2006)

megazone said:


> Looking at the trending on the pricing, sell a box with lifetime for $549-$599. That's the range a 4-year deal would fall in, and the expected service life has always been considered 4 years in the past. A lot of people paid MORE than $599 for a TiVo and lifetime, in years past. Offer lifetime alone for $499 or something like that - I bet a lot of people would still bite. (I would.)


This is the missing link in Tivo's new pricing model!!! I'd bite too! Well said!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

A lifetime box with total cost (hardware + lifetime) of $599 would seem to make sense to offer.

But then people would ***** that they just doubled the lifetime cost. 

I would at least hope they would OFFER it - no harm done if nobody bites, IMO. But I really understand why they want to get rid of it.



> I have a real bad taste in my mouth about the concept that someone has to remember to call TiVo to drop their price by as much as $7/mo.


Once again, they seem to have taken the model from cell phone industry whole sale - I think that's how they work too. You pay for the plan you signed up for, even if they come up with less expensive plans with the same terms, until you call them and tell them you want to change.


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## marlborobell (Jun 21, 2002)

So... correct me if I'm wrong, but if I already have a 'full-priced' TiVo and want another one, I should go buy one for $224 and put a reminder in my calendar to call you guys in one year's time. Then the $19.95/month I would have started paying you goes right down to $6.95. (You'll take the $19.95 if I don't call you, which I think is a bit skeevy, but a lot of companies do that.)

Have I missed something? Is that pretty much correct?


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

Personally, I have no problem paying $240 for a box with service over the course of a year, as long as I can reduce the price per month to the current level - $12.95/$6.95 - after year one.

(I do think Tivo should automatically reduce the subs at the end of the commitment period, however. Like others, not doing so strikes me as...cheap and out of character.)

The company's gotta make money one of these days, and I like what Tivo offers enough to pay a reasonable premium.

This strikes me as a relatively painless way to put more boxes in the hands of more people.

One question: what about dvd recorder or player S2 tivos? Will you be offering those or extending your arrangement with Humax, and if so, what will the deal be?

Scott A.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ducker said:


> What exactly would be the difference between paying $19.95 a month and a new "service-only" option aside from $7.00???
> Why would you want to go on the 2 or 3 year plans???


I'm guessing "service-only" means you just get guide updates, and no feature upgrades. Software upgrades would be limited to bug-fixes only. Unless you just illegally put the new code into your Tivo for free.

It's just a guess, though.


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## SteveH66 (Aug 23, 2005)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Or, if you don't mind monthly fees, after next week, you can go and get an 80-hour DVR for zero cents.
> ...
> To quote the TiVo guy, "It's all about choice."


OK...I have a question that hasn't been asked yet and seems appropriate given the discussions that occur in some of the other TiVo Community forums here: 

Let's say I get an 80-hour TiVo for zero cents, pay the monthly commitment fee, and I "own" the TiVo. Are there any new legal or contractual limitations on my ability to install larger the hard drives in that TiVo? Would any upgrades need to occur after the commitment period?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

BobCamp1, you guess wrong. "Service Only" means that you pay a hardware fee upfront, and then the $12.95 (or $6.95 if you have a multiple unit discount) per month.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

SteveH66, I don't see why there would be any changes in that area. The $16.95 pricing with no hardware cost has already been an option for a while, and there haven't been anyone mentioning anything about what you're asking about.

Maybe they will make some changes, but I don't see why they would.

EDIT: I just got this in my email


> Your online request for "College Basketball : Pac-10 Tournament: Arizona vs. Stanford" has been received."


That was a nice reminder of why I love TiVo.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

MickeS said:


> BobCamp1, you guess wrong. "Service Only" means that you pay a hardware fee upfront, and then the $12.95 (or $6.95 if you have a multiple unit discount) per month.


So you can prepay a lot and pay more per month, prepay a little and pay even more per month, or prepay nothing and pay a huge amount per month.

Or, if you don't like the last option, you can prepay some and pay more per month after x number of years. If you remember to call them in x years, you'll magically pay a little less per month for the same service. Gee, I wonder why people aren't happy.

One other nice feature of this option is that Tivo can, at any time, increase the rates and everyone will eventually have to pay them.

The new pricing structure is confusing to say the least.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Indeed -- check the carton for the product label and description. The SKUs for factory renewed units is different.
> 
> For example, a brand new 80 hour standalone DVR is known by SKU R54080 (or model R540080). A factory renewed version would be R5408B (or model R54008B).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info!


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Prozium said:


> Well you never actually own the cable box. You pay monthly to rent the box. With tivo, after the initial 1/2/3 year commitment you actually own the tivo box and can resubscribe with the hopefully lower "service-only" plans.


No,with the new Tivo plans, you own the box off the bat, in exchange for a higher service fee and a commitment.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

ducker said:


> What exactly would be the difference between paying $19.95 a month and a new "service-only" option aside from $7.00???
> Why would you want to go on the 2 or 3 year plans???


The difference is you don't need to have $220 available to purchase a DVR outright. With the monthly plans, you pay just the montly fee, albeit a higher one. The "service" is the same however you subscribe.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

marlborobell said:


> So... correct me if I'm wrong, but if I already have a 'full-priced' TiVo and want another one, I should go buy one for $224 and put a reminder in my calendar to call you guys in one year's time. Then the $19.95/month I would have started paying you goes right down to $6.95. (You'll take the $19.95 if I don't call you, which I think is a bit skeevy, but a lot of companies do that.)
> 
> Have I missed something? Is that pretty much correct?


Pretty much. If your existing DVR is on Lifetime, you pay the montly bundle rate, and when the contract is up, switch to service only, and MSD kicks in. If you existing DVR is on monthy full regular service (12.95), it goes to 6.95 for the contract,and as long as you keep the other subbed.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, except that we no longer (financially-speaking) have the choice to offer Lifetime at a price consumers would find reasonable.


Funny you would say that - we talked about that at lunch today (coming soon to a podcast near you!). Why not retain a lifetime option, at, say, $899? Yes, it sounds insane to most people, but there are lifetime memberships to the NRA, MENSA etc. that are WAY out there in price, yet some people will always bite to avoid the monthly fee.

Maybe 0.5% of your customers would choose it, but you'd have the feather in your cap of maintaining a lifetime subscription, and I'm certain that you could make money on a $899 subscription over the life of an average box.

I've been a fan of TiVo since the beginning, but trying to spin any of this as "no monthly fees" is disingenuous. Give the buyers a real option, even if it's "off the hook".

Brad


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

Stephen (TivoOpsMgr),

Just to be perfectly clear:

If I buy the one-year-committment box, I will pay $19.95 a month for 12 months, and then after that, since this will be my 3rd TiVo, the service will revert to $6.95 a month? (Assuming I make the call to request that -- btw, put me in the "why can't your billing computers just figure that out" group).

thanks


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

bootedbear said:


> btw, put me in the "why can't your billing computers just figure that out" group).


That's an easy one: For every month that the customer doesn't call, they keep getting the bigger fee. It's much easier to just let things ride, and TiVo will benefit from that.

Brad


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## rlcarr (Jan 18, 2003)

Pony and OpsMgr have repeatedly said that after the commitment expires, you have to take affirmative action to drop down to the cheaper "service-only" rate. If you do nothing, you stay at the higher price even though your box has already been paid off.

OpsMgr also said that if your box breaks after 90 days, you have to pay to fix/replace it even though you're still under contract.

Putting this together, it appears that once the initial committment expires, there is no reason to stay on the higher-priced plan -- in otherwords, everyone should switch to "service-only" as soon as they can.

It seems so obvious I figure I must be missing something. What am I missing? Is it really as simple as TiVo wanting to rip off subscribers and therefore not simply auto-converting them to "service-only" once the initial commitment ends?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

rlcarr said:


> It seems so obvious I figure I must be missing something. What am I missing? Is it really as simple as TiVo wanting to rip off subscribers and therefore not simply auto-converting them to "service-only" once the initial commitment ends?


Everytime I think about the pricing options, the number one thing that comes to mind is that if I somehow *'forget' * to call TiVo THREE YEARS from now, I'm going to feel so stupid that I got a bill for $16.95.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

rlcarr said:


> Pony and OpsMgr have repeatedly said that after the commitment expires, you have to take affirmative action to drop down to the cheaper "service-only" rate. If you do nothing, you stay at the higher price even though your box has already been paid off.
> 
> OpsMgr also said that if your box breaks after 90 days, you have to pay to fix/replace it even though you're still under contract.
> 
> ...


Certainly nobody from TiVo is going to officially comment, but there's really no other possible explanation. The "smarts" needed in the back office system to autoconvert wouldn't take more than a few days work for even a novice programmer.

Of course, TiVo "covers their bases" by stating clearly up front that you have to call to make the change. In a way, it's kind of like a rebate - they're not going to give it to you unless you take some action to get it.

Brad


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

It works like your cable company. They charge you so much for a package of stations and you pay per month. Then they come out with some new super-duper package that contains more channels and services for a less amount. They don't notify their customers....they'd rather have people paying the higher amount until they call and get their plan changed.


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## Scrith (Apr 6, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> One other nice feature of this option is that Tivo can, at any time, increase the rates and everyone will eventually have to pay them.


Another key point. You no longer have any protection whatsoever from fee increases.

And, yes, the automatic continuation of service at the higher rate after the contract ends really calls into question the new TiVo's commitment to its customers. With this new pricing structure TiVo is potentially losing much of the loyalty from its customers that they have enjoyed.

Has TiVo considered that, with monthly plans only, they are ripe for a competitor to come in with a similar product and have everyone jump ship at the drop of a hat?!? I think this is the downside of the cel-phone business (just ask one of those companies how difficult it is to have so many customers leave after their year is up in order to get a better plan with another company). Just because nobody else has figured out how to make a decent interface for a competing DVR so far doesn't mean they won't in the future...

Stupid, stupid move TiVo...copying the cel phone business is going to be your final undoing, I think.

I mentioned this in another thread: I once bought a TiVo for my parents with a lifetime subscription...I was considering buying one for my in-laws, but with the new pricing plans that idea is right out the window because I'd never give a gift with a montly fee attached. TiVo seriously needs to consider making a lifetime option, or perhaps a more 'deluxe' version of the box that sells for $599 or whatever with some extra feature(s) and it would include lifetime service.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Scrith said:


> Has TiVo considered that, with monthly plans only, they are ripe for a competitor to come in with a similar product and have everyone jump ship at the drop of a hat?!?


There used to be such a competitor, they were called ReplayTV. Early on TiVo offered monthly, yearly, or lifetime options. ReplayTV offered lifetime only, bundled into the cost of the unit. And their feature sets were very similar - RTV even had a couple of features TiVo has never had, automatic commercial skipping and Internet show sharing. In later units they also had built in Ethernet, streaming between units, Internet scheduling, and cooperative scheduling - before TiVo.

TiVo severely beat them in sales. Eventually ReplayTV caved in and unbundled the subscription, and copied TiVo's pricing - exactly the same service pricing with monthly and lifetime options. TiVo still outsold them. ReplayTV later tried the bundling thing again, selling units for a higher price with 'no commitment' - that didn't last long at all, and they went back to the TiVo style of pricing after tanking in sales.

ReplayTV went bankrupt, was purchased by SonicBlue, which went bankrupt, and was purchased by D&M Holdings, and made part of DNNA. And under that ownership they ceased developing new hardware and software, and have now exited the DVR business.

TiVo themselves reported that fewer than 20% of their subscriptions were lifetime, and that was declining when it was reported last year. The large majority of subscribers just don't care that lifetime is going away, because they never cared about it in the first place. Even if someone managed to produce an equivalent product - which is not at all as simple as you seem to think - the thought that just offering lifetime would make people 'jump ship at the drop of a hat' is utterly laughable.

The facts show that most people *want* monthly plans, and that when TiVo trialed these new pricing plans last year, sales went *up*.

Is it going to make everyone happy? No. Is it likely to boost sales overall? Based on the evidence, yes.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

There are two main problems with the pricing structure:

1. You really can't give Tivo as a gift anymore. It's awkward to give a gift that keeps on TAKING. You couldn't give other DVRs as a gift because you couldn't buy them separately, which made Tivo unique. You can still do this with Windows Media PCs.

2. The other competitors are cable DVRs, which have lower rates and no commitments. As their software improves, Tivo will find it more difficult to compete with them. 

Of course, Tivo is at a disadvantage, as the cable companies can spread out the cost to make their rental fees lower. Tivo has decided to try to provide more services for their higher price. Which will also make Windows Media PCs their competitors -- and you can buy this box up front.

We'll see what happens, but I personally just want a plain DVR.


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## shadowplay (Mar 12, 2003)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, except that we no longer (financially-speaking) have the choice to offer Lifetime at a price consumers would find reasonable.


But it's been your lifetime subscribers that have been getting their friends/relatives/coworkers to buy Tivo's (in my case long before you started Tivo Rewards), you have not lost $$$ with my 2 lifetime subscriptions. Now you have alienated a good % of us and will probably lose at least some of that revenue stream.

I had planned to drop directv (selling my directivo and keeping my S1 & S2) and getting a S3 when they came out. Looks like I'll be selling the at least 1 of S1/S2 and getting a crappy R15 (and giving it to my wife  )


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> There are two main problems with the pricing structure:
> 
> 1. You really can't give Tivo as a gift anymore. It's awkward to give a gift that keeps on TAKING. You couldn't give other DVRs as a gift because you couldn't buy them separately, which made Tivo unique. You can still do this with Windows Media PCs.
> 
> ...


You can still give it as a gift.
Did you ever give someone a subscription to a magazine as a gift? (Yes I know the dollars are less)


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

danieljanderson said:


> You can still give it as a gift.
> Did you ever give someone a subscription to a magazine as a gift? (Yes I know the dollars are less)


Yes, I have, and I agree it is a fair point.


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## DocSavag (Feb 18, 2006)

segaily said:


> I have to agree that not dropping the price without a phone call seams pretty sleazy to me.


I don't know if I would go as far as to say "sleazy" but it the cynic in me assumes that its calculated to get the extra bucks from the lazy Tivo subscribers who won't call or who don't know they can call and get it lowered. Only those who are "in the know" get a discount after their service commitment is up. It would be far more reputable to send an announcement to the subscribers when their commitment is up reminding them that they have service only options.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

megazone said:


> TiVo themselves reported that fewer than 20% of their subscriptions were lifetime...
> 
> The facts show that most people *want* monthly plans, and that when TiVo trialed these new pricing plans last year, sales went *up*.


So, not every subscriber will be unhappy, but up to 20% may be. That seems like a rather large number to me.

Also, when Tivo trialed these new pricing plans, lifetime was still an option to everyone.



> Is it going to make everyone happy? No. Is it likely to boost sales overall? Based on the evidence, yes.


I see *no* evidence that these new pricing plans combined with the elimination of the lifetime option will boost sales.


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> But you're correct, if you don't call, you'll continue to pay the same monthly fee each month.


That's slimy.


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, except that we no longer (financially-speaking) have the choice to offer Lifetime at a price consumers would find reasonable.


Why not let consumers make the decision? You might be pleasantly surprised!


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