# Battlestar Galactica 6/13/08 Revelations



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, dang. Didn't see that coming quite so soon!

It's nice that they're not making it the past or present, however. There's no way either one could possibly make sense.

So did the humans leave Earth because it was ruined, or is it ruined because the humans left Earth?

I suppose the Final One has to be one of the hostages, since Deanna said only four of the Five were with the Fleet...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Just so long as those Dirty Apes keep their hands off Boomer!


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## kjnorman (Jun 21, 2002)

Wow, I did not expect that ending!

So is this a future earth? Did the 12 colonies leave Earth 5000 years ago after a global war? And now they returned?

Next (mid) season will certainly be interesting...


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

It did feel rushed, but expected. I seem to remember mentioning that the temple "signpost" last season probably was not left by the 13th colony on their way to earth...it was left there after they left earth. Most likely in the same fashion that the Colonial fleet just showed up.

It has all happened before, and it will all happen again...I think the question now is "How recently has it happened"?


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## kjnorman (Jun 21, 2002)

I'm still thinking that the Final one is Gias.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Oh, the final Cylon was Kara.

Not "is" Kara...Was Kara.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

well, if the 13th colony left earth a long time ago, then how did they take Kara and give her the spiffy viper that knew how to find earth?

Thank God they didn't pan to a statue of liberty half-buried in the sand...my other hope is they won't make some "global warming" message...

Adama's breakdown was weird...and the whole stand-off could have been resolved by Tigh (and Anders and Chief) telling Deanna to stand down!


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

So, what entity or whatever is orchestrating everything like Kara's Viper and the quirky 'radio' broadcasts to the Final 3 that brought them to the viper? And so on.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

Looked like post-apocalyptic Earth!


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## kjnorman (Jun 21, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Thank God they didn't pan to a statue of liberty half-buried in the sand...


+1

As they panned up and showed the city I was have expecting the remains of Liberty. Glad they didn't do it as it would have been too cheesy. Still, the city still looked too much like New York for my liking, but of course I was thinking Plant of the Apes so I had already "programmed" my mind to see that


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Anubys said:


> well, if the 13th colony left earth a long time ago, then how did they take Kara and give her the spiffy viper that knew how to find earth?
> 
> Thank God they didn't pan to a statue of liberty half-buried in the sand...my other hope is they won't make some "global warming" message...
> 
> ...


Yah, I was sorta flabbergasted that Tigh et. al. didn't simply 'order' D to stand down, she was so in awe of them. Hello!


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## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Add me to the list of those who (jokingly) expected a planet full of apes. Damn dirty apes, of course.

More seriously, if the place was so radioactive (that was a geiger counter, wasn't it?), what were all their most important personnel doing there? Couldn't they tell from observations from orbit that the planet wasn't in the condition they'd hoped?

--Debbie


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Okay, who didn't make some sort of remark about "those damn dirty apes" or "damn them all to hell!". Everyone watching it at my place did....


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

ThePennyDropped said:


> Add me to the list of those who (jokingly) expected a planet full of apes. Damn dirty apes, of course.
> 
> More seriously, if the place was so radioactive (that was a geiger counter, wasn't it?), what were all their most important personnel doing there? Couldn't they tell from observations from orbit that the planet wasn't in the condition they'd hoped?
> 
> --Debbie


It wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

kjnorman said:


> +1
> 
> Still, the city still looked too much like New York for my liking, but of course I was thinking Plant of the Apes so I had already "programmed" my mind to see that


I'm pretty sure it was NYC but I couldn't tell from what perspective it was. It looked like the Brooklyn Bridge in the last frames, but the east River looked too wide.

What is your beef about it looking like NYC?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

It's funny how everyone immediately thought Planet of the Apes. I don't think that city is supposed to be N.Y. though. There aren't any Athenian temples in NJ. 

Despite the stand off and the four finally revealing themselves, tonight's episode seem to lack something. 

I too was surprised they found Earth, but I'm not sure what to think of it. Maybe they'll find a sign that says thank you for coming, but the 13th tribe is on another planet.


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## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

I was _not_ expecting a desolated Earth. I was expecting something along the lines of the Cylons starting some crap once they got to Earth. That would've have been disappointingly obvious.


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## lord-dogbert (Jan 31, 2005)

All I can say is a big WTF! When is it back, me want more....


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

I too immediately thought it resembled NYC.

Who all of importance (that we know of) was not with the fleet when Deanna said the 4 were the only ones with the fleet? Just Rosalyn & Baltar? Any other hostages we know?


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

markz said:


> I too immediately thought it resembled NYC.
> 
> Who all of importance (that we know of) was not with the fleet when Deanna said the 4 were the only ones with the fleet? Just Rosalyn & Baltar? Any other hostages we know?


Admiral Adama and Helo were there, too. This should eliminate Starbuck. At least until the next writers meeting.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

We still don't know how Starbuck came back from the wormhole in a nice clean ship that they just showed. Perhaps the fifth is part of that and nothing to do with anybody we have seen already.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

So Deanna knows who all 5 are and was willing to bring 3 of them out by taking human hostages. How was the fleet suppose to hand over the other 3 if they didn't know who they were. She was killing hostages to force the 3 to out themselves?

But she isn't willing to out the 5th?

J


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## lord-dogbert (Jan 31, 2005)

I got it..

Earth is inhabited by us, we create robots and such. One day the holocaust occurs and many of us leave earth to find habital planets. Along the way we leave buoys and markers to go back home. We find planets to inhabit and form Kobol and then the colonies and create robots once again. The robots rebel and the first cylon wars occur. The robots get advanced and pissed and nuke the colonies so we go back to earth to find it in the shape that it was left in. So it has happened and so it will again.

bdee, bdee, that's all folks.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

ThePennyDropped said:


> More seriously, if the place was so radioactive (that was a geiger counter, wasn't it?), what were all their most important personnel doing there?


They've been to radioactive zones before. They have some sort of serum they can inject that protects them in radioactive environments.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

So nothing else has been said about 6 and Tigh's love child. But at the end a 6 did come up behind Tigh and touch him that seemed intimate. Was that Caprica 6?

J


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## jgerry (Aug 29, 2001)

Wow, that came on fast. But I was kind of expecting a desolate Earth. Anything else would have been too difficult for the writers to deal with. 

I still think the 5th is Starbuck. She died, she came back to the fleet in the mystery viper.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

appleye1 said:


> They've been to radioactive zones before. They have some sort of serum they can inject that protects them in radioactive environments.


I also didn't think the Geiger Counter counted much. It sounded pretty much like normal background radiation to me.


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## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

Closed captions said it was "clicking rapidly". FWIW


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I also didn't think the Geiger Counter counted much. It sounded pretty much like normal background radiation to me.


I wish they would have been more specific with that. It did sound like background radiation, but I don't quite understand the "Oh, crap, we found an earth we can't use" reaction if that was the case. Sure, they didn't find the 13th colony full of advanced humans, but they seemed giddy enough to find New Caprica, and it was barely hospitable.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tivortex said:


> Closed captions said it was "clicking rapidly". FWIW


But...that would mean they don't know anything about science!

In-con-CEIVABLE! 

It's interesting, though. When they did that bit, I thought "Well, it sounds like background radiation so it must be OK. Then again, they might not know how a Geiger Counter works, so maybe it's NOT OK." Which is why I think a reasonable level of scientific accuracy is so important in a science fiction show...once they've established a record of not knowing and/or caring about science, then no science they use means anything. The Geiger Counter is presumably a significant plot point--it's meant to represent whether or not the Earth is habitable. But we have no way of knowing (unless you read the subtitles, apparently) which answer they meant us to get. And if you've been paying attention throughout the show then you KNOW that there's no way of telling what the Geiger Counter represents, because they so often get that kind of thing wrong.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I also didn't think the Geiger Counter counted much. It sounded pretty much like normal background radiation to me.


It seemed to me to be more than just background, but also seems to have been an event that happened a long time ago to the point they can all risk a short exposure.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Well, at least the last two episodes of the season were good. I suppose we'll get one good one to start the last half of the season, 8 fillers, and two good ones at the end. I've stopped trying to guess the last of the five, since I doubt the writers even know yet. Now that I have, the show is good on a week to week basis.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

A bit of an anticlimax ... and what's with Kara running through Galactica to stop Lee from spacing Tigh? She couldn't have just picked up a phone?


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> A bit of an anticlimax ... and what's with Kara running through Galactica to stop Lee from spacing Tigh? She couldn't have just picked up a phone?


+1

Yelled at the TV the whole time she was running!

Just scrape off the top layer on Earth. It's still good underneath!

PS- I can't wait to see _Burn Notice_ 6 this Summer!


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> Just scrape off the top layer on Earth. It's still good underneath!


Make the toasters do it. "They have their uses".


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## gpejsa (Jan 27, 2002)

I loved the episode...finally, this season kicks into gear and then it is over...until the fall? Glad they got to earth though.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> +1
> 
> Yelled at the TV the whole time she was running!
> 
> ...





vman41 said:


> Make the toasters do it. "They have their uses".


Yeah, just like I do if I burn toast!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Okay, who didn't make some sort of remark about "those damn dirty apes" or "damn them all to hell!". Everyone watching it at my place did....


Same here.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But...that would mean they don't know anything about science!
> 
> In-con-CEIVABLE!
> 
> It's interesting, though. When they did that bit, I thought "Well, it sounds like background radiation so it must be OK. Then again, they might not know how a Geiger Counter works, so maybe it's NOT OK." Which is why I think a reasonable level of scientific accuracy is so important in a science fiction show...once they've established a record of not knowing and/or caring about science, then no science they use means anything. The Geiger Counter is presumably a significant plot point--it's meant to represent whether or not the Earth is habitable. But we have no way of knowing (unless you read the subtitles, apparently) which answer they meant us to get. And if you've been paying attention throughout the show then you KNOW that there's no way of telling what the Geiger Counter represents, because they so often get that kind of thing wrong.


You're assuming that whomever did the captioning did anything more than listen to the scene and transcribe it. "Oh, it sounds like it's clicking rapidly, I'll write that".


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

lord-dogbert said:


> I got it..
> 
> Earth is inhabited by us, we create robots and such. One day the holocaust occurs and many of us leave earth to find habital planets. Along the way we leave buoys and markers to go back home. We find planets to inhabit and form Kobol and then the colonies and create robots once again. The robots rebel and the first cylon wars occur. The robots get advanced and pissed and nuke the colonies so we go back to earth to find it in the shape that it was left in. So it has happened and so it will again.
> 
> bdee, bdee, that's all folks.


I always wondered what was the the mother planet the colonists came from. I don't know why Earth never occurred to me.

I'm thinking it was the robots that caused the Earth holocaust as well. Maybe unbeknownst to the people of Earth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jehma said:


> You're assuming that whomever did the captioning did anything more than listen to the scene and transcribe it. "Oh, it sounds like it's clicking rapidly, I'll write that".


Very true. Which still leaves us wondering whether they know how Geiger Counters work. And let's face it, it's pretty dumb of them to assume WE know how Geiger Counters work. It would have been painfully easy to add a line that explains what we're supposed to get out of that scene. But apparently they assumed we would understand it the way they wanted to, without actually giving us any conclusive or even strong evidence one way or the other.


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## jordie7 (Jun 14, 2008)

The twisted metal in the last scene looked like it could have been the internal structure of the Statue of Liberty if they were on Liberty Island, looking across the river toward Manhattan. Maybe the statue had been blown up instead of buried...


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

jordie7 said:


> The twisted metal in the last scene looked like it could have been the internal structure of the Statue of Liberty if they were on Liberty Island, looking across the river toward Manhattan. Maybe the statue had been blown up instead of buried...


The twisted metal was clearly the remains of the Temple of Aurora.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vman41 said:


> The twisted metal was clearly the remains of the Temple of Aurora.


I'm not sure how "clearly" it can be, given all the different theories...


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## Ian (Mar 7, 2000)

Of course, it's possible that it's the ruins of the IKEA that's supposed to open up in Red Hook next week...

...and thousands of years later, the phrase "furniture of horror" got morphed into "temple of Aurora"...

Just my two cents.



-Ian


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## orome (Dec 30, 2004)

They found the Earth That Was.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

I was really surprised that they found earth. I've been assuming that that's how they'd end the series.

Now I'm guessing that the series finale will be revealing who the final of the final five is.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

We still have the matter of who was sending the signal to Kara's Viper...


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

ronsch said:


> It seemed to me to be more than just background, but also seems to have been an event that happened a long time ago to the point they can all risk a short exposure.


I think it was Helo who used an anti-radiation med when he was stranded on Caprica in season one. Maybe they are using it now on Earth?


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Maybe it's not Earth?


Spoiler



Maybe they found a ruined Terra from the 1978 series instead?

(spoilerized because of the 1978 reference, not because it's speculation.)


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

lord-dogbert said:


> I got it..
> 
> Earth is inhabited by us, we create robots and such. One day the holocaust occurs and many of us leave earth to find habital planets. Along the way we leave buoys and markers to go back home. We find planets to inhabit and form Kobol and then the colonies and create robots once again. The robots rebel and the first cylon wars occur. The robots get advanced and pissed and nuke the colonies so we go back to earth to find it in the shape that it was left in. So it has happened and so it will again.
> 
> bdee, bdee, that's all folks.


How about we take it a step further...

The other spylons come and there is a fight and either they all join forces or the bad cylons are killed. Since Earth isn't the paradise they expected and there are no more cylons to run from they decide to go back and repopulate the colonies.

But they leave markers along the way so they can find their way back if need be.

Then when they get to Kobol the Cylons decide not to help them colonize but head back toward Earth setting everything in motion again.

J


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

ronsch said:


> We still have the matter of who was sending the signal to Kara's Viper...


Maybe Kara's viper is the final cylon. They never said it was a skinjob.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ok...I know next to nothing about what a nuclear winter would be like...did this earth look like it should if that were the case? when they got to earth, the planet looked pretty normal from above...

as to the city...looked like it was mostly under water...so the sea level had risen considerably...not sure if that also is consistent with nuclear winter...


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## brschmid (Nov 10, 2005)

jehma said:


> Maybe Kara's viper is the final cylon. They never said it was a skinjob.


thats a good point


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

jehma said:


> Maybe Kara's viper is the final cylon. They never said it was a skinjob.


It's a decepticon!


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## aepman (Oct 3, 2000)

Hmmm.....wasn't there a prophecy that the leader would not live to see Earth? Wonder if this may not be Earth, or maybe the writers just decided to ignore that part (or possibly I'm mis-remembering).

Todd


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

I had always kind of assumed that when they got to Earth it would be unpopulated because of a global catastrophe, but I had hoped that the environment would have renewed itself and it really would be a final home for the colonies. 

Now I don't know where the show will go from here. If the whole planet looks like where they landed then they can't live there. It's in worse shape than New Caprica, and I didn't think they could find a planet more depressing than that place.

Put me down as disappointed.
.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Did it bother anyone else that suddenly Admiral Adama and Galen Tyrol were suddenly both back at their previous jobs in the fleet, despite recently relinquishing those jobs? Adama didn't turn over the ship to Tigh because he wanted to sit in space to wait for Roslin. I thought he did that before. And when Tyrol went crazy, I thought he was drummed out and they were then calling him Mr. Tyrol instead of Chief. Now they're all right back where they were before without any explanation.



jgerry said:


> Wow, that came on fast. But I was kind of expecting a desolate Earth. Anything else would have been too difficult for the writers to deal with.


I'm glad that Earth was deserted, because it would have bugged me to no end if there were actually people on Earth and they let all these alien invaders land without putting up a fight or at least initiating some kind of communication.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

So basically we are now in "Galactica 1980" territory. Moving forward, this is no longer the "Battlestar Galactica" remake. 

In terms of the Geiger Counter that seemed to get more coverage here than any other plot point (!), I'd say it's purpose was to show there was radiation and the soil was unusable for any type of planting. That's it.

How about those effects? Awesome! Terrific work on the score too!

I was very VERY pleased with the last two episodes.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did it bother anyone else that suddenly Admiral Adama and Galen Tyrol were suddenly both back at their previous jobs in the fleet, despite recently relinquishing those jobs? Adama didn't turn over the ship to Tigh because he wanted to sit in space to wait for Roslin. I thought he did that before. And when Tyrol went crazy, I thought he was drummed out and they were then calling him Mr. Tyrol instead of Chief. Now they're all right back where they were before without any explanation.


I agree Adama shouldn't have been allowed to return to his old job when he basically abandoned the fleet to go wait for his girlfriend to come home. That was pitiful. Add to that the fact that he had a nervous breakdown soon after returning, and I'm not sure I'd want to follow him anywhere. But I don't think Tyrol was back in his old job. I heard someone yell "Chief" in one scene and he didn't turn around to acknowledge them. I took that to mean he was working in the same environment, but someone else was now "Chief" and he is an underling.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

atrac said:


> So basically we are now in "Galactica 1980" territory. Moving forward, this is no longer the "Battlestar Galactica" remake.
> 
> * cute!*
> 
> ...


Effects were awesome.

But if the purpose was to show plants can't grow, they blew the science. Chernoble is overgrown with plants. Starting right away after the disaster.
We're long lived and more sensitive to particulate radiation than most species. Given that earlier on BSG folks were runing around on Caprica right away after its serious nuking, the Earth's condition is a bit problematic plot wise. That of course means nothing to BSG's writers.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I want flying motorcycles!


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

I was waiting to see what kind of missiles they would depict shooting up from earth to meet the fleet. Oh well, not 1980 I guess.

Even if we had the full out nuclear war as depicted during the 1960's parts of earth would have been untouched. Maybe fallout etc. would have been all over the earth but parts of it would have remained green.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> I want flying motorcycles!


Ok. 3.2.1.... que the flying motorcycles. Also I'm waiting for the hybid's prediction of Kara


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

jking said:


> I agree Adama shouldn't have been allowed to return to his old job when he basically abandoned the fleet to go wait for his girlfriend to come home. That was pitiful. Add to that the fact that he had a nervous breakdown soon after returning, and I'm not sure I'd want to follow him anywhere. But I don't think Tyrol was back in his old job. I heard someone yell "Chief" in one scene and he didn't turn around to acknowledge them. I took that to mean he was working in the same environment, but someone else was now "Chief" and he is an underling.


Quite true. When he was arrested they specifically referred to him as _Specialist_ Tyrol.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Maybe there was a religious war on earth. It came down to monotheists vs. polytheists. The monotheists pretty much won and left to find the other colonies. Came across the cylons and taught them about the one true god.

Then the monotheist humans helped the cylons plot the destruction of the colonies for adhering to the old gods.

J


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

sieglinde said:


> I was waiting to see what kind of missiles they would depict shooting up from earth to meet the fleet. Oh well, not 1980 I guess.
> 
> Even if we had the full out nuclear war as depicted during the 1960's parts of earth would have been untouched. Maybe fallout etc. would have been all over the earth but parts of it would have remained green.


of course we are all thinking like Nuclear war with our current technology. Call it lazy writing if you will but there are large gaps in all of Battlestar Galactica. So the fact that not one green thing was around and very, very likely then that no humans were left on the planet the Fleet called Earth then they obviously did not find the 13th tribe.

Also It seems likely to me the markers were left by people leaving earth the first time, for whatever reason, and since they used celestial navigation to mark earth and the path to it - that knowledge grew into a re-inventing of the Greek mythology as the highest knowledge and eventually into a religion. loved the way the had plural gods as norma speech "[email protected]" for instance.

Of course Gais has stumbled back onto the one true God religion to provide a background story of Christianity versus the old many Gods we went through in our past. Loved how they turned that to be the Cylon God and of course no mention of old Earth Christianity which seems to have been forsaken by those leaving Earth or else points to the fact that it was people from elsewhere that populated the colonies and not from what we know as Earth.

So who is the one not revealed and where is the 13th tribe? Looks to be a good storyline brewing for the next set of episodes :up:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jwjody said:


> Maybe there was a religious war on earth. It came down to monotheists vs. polytheists. The monotheists pretty much won and left to find the other colonies. Came across the cylons and taught them about the one true god.
> 
> Then the monotheist humans helped the cylons plot the destruction of the colonies for adhering to the old gods.
> 
> J


hmmm... But if the monotheists won, why leave Earth?
Maybe they kicked out the monotheists but humans being humans screwed up the Earth anyway


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> hmmm... But if the monotheists won, why leave Earth?
> Maybe they kicked out the monotheists but humans being humans screwed up the Earth anyway


They left to find the colonies to teach them the error of their ways.

J


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

lord-dogbert said:


> I got it..
> 
> Earth is inhabited by us, we create robots and such. One day the holocaust occurs and many of us leave earth to find habital planets. Along the way we leave buoys and markers to go back home. We find planets to inhabit and form Kobol and then the colonies and create robots once again. The robots rebel and the first cylon wars occur. The robots get advanced and pissed and nuke the colonies so we go back to earth to find it in the shape that it was left in. So it has happened and so it will again.
> 
> bdee, bdee, that's all folks.


The question is, are the Colonials the descendants of Earth-humanity, or the Earth-_cylons_?! IMHO the latter fits in better with the new cylons' theology ("has happened before...") since they obviously assumed they would win... OTOH, maybe Colonials are human, and the Earth-cylons are hiding out elsewhere, manipulating events...



Anubys said:


> ok...I know next to nothing about what a nuclear winter would be like...did this earth look like it should if that were the case? when they got to earth, the planet looked pretty normal from above...
> 
> as to the city...looked like it was mostly under water...so the sea level had risen considerably...not sure if that also is consistent with nuclear winter...


Presumably the war happened a *looong* time ago, so Earth would have recovered from the immediate effects. Apparently there's still enough residual fallout to inhibit life on land in some areas, and non- rad-hardened organisms (humans) in general...



jking said:


> I agree Adama shouldn't have been allowed to return to his old job when he basically abandoned the fleet to go wait for his girlfriend to come home. That was pitiful. Add to that the fact that he had a nervous breakdown soon after returning, and I'm not sure I'd want to follow him anywhere. But I don't think Tyrol was back in his old job. I heard someone yell "Chief" in one scene and he didn't turn around to acknowledge them. I took that to mean he was working in the same environment, but someone else was now "Chief" and he is an underling.


Well it's not like Tigh was gonna fight for the position, considering what he knew about himself...


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm not too sure it was New York but I was wondering did anyone notice the stone cross lying in the ground as they panned to the right of Adama. My wife seemed to think it was DC because of the wreckage of the dome building they where in. But for a moment I thought it might be the Vatican until I saw the bridge.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I think the writers forgot that cylons don't do well around radiation.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

teknikel said:


> I'm thinking it was the robots that caused the Earth holocaust as well. Maybe unbeknownst to the people of Earth.


Maybe SkyNet is the Fifth Cylon....!! Gives whole new meaning to _I'll be back!_


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

I don't think it's Earth. Consider:

o The city is not obviously recognizable
o There were no recognizable continents shown
o They didn't show the Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, or anything else that would uniquely tie the solar system to our own
o If it was meant to be the Earth, why hide the fact? Why not make it obvious somehow?

The end of the bridge sort of looked like the Brooklyn bridge, but not enough for me to say it was with any certainty.

Also, isn't Earth supposed to be the 13th *colony*? Where is the homeworld? Maybe that's where they should be heading. Maybe this is the homeworld, and they still need to find Earth. How much history do the 12 colonies have, anyway? When were they supposed to have been settled? 600 years ago? 6,000 years ago?

On a side note, based on the size of the structures in the city we can assume that whatever happened did so less than 1,000 years prior. The rate of decay of buildings made of steel and concrete is fairly well known, and they wouldn't be standing longer than that. Unless, or course, they aren't made of steel and concrete, in which case this is either the future or not Earth.


----------



## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

My bet is on Doc Cottle being the fifth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mars Rocket said:


> I don't think it's Earth.


You may well be right, but only because if you are it's a HUGE cheat and that's not something that would surprise me too much on this show.

But it SHOULD be Earth, and I suspect it is.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I still say Billy is the 5th.


----------



## bnbhoha (Nov 2, 2002)

I thought this was suppose to be the last season. Will there be another season or a short mini-series. I know it was mentioned that there will be a minseries(movie?) prequel. So there's one more season?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bnbhoha said:


> I thought this was suppose to be the last season. Will there be another season or a short mini-series. I know it was mentioned that there will be a minseries(movie?) prequel. So there's one more season?


This is the last season. They're halfway through. The rest will air starting in (I think) January.


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This is the last season. They're halfway through. The rest will air starting in (I think) January.


The recent rumor went that there might be up to 3 made for TV movies made _this_ summer to air _before_ the 2nd half of season four.

Seems a little odd though. _Several_ movies? It's already June.


----------



## tcesario (Nov 26, 2003)

From a TV Squad thread...looks like New York...

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tcesario said:


> From a TV Squad thread...looks like New York...
> 
> http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg


yep. if the series is setup that this is indeed Earth than no question it is evoking New York.

They have history back 5000 years for the colonies.
So sure lots happened back on Earth - I am sure.

My bet is it is Earth adn New York City (though they may never bother to show which city for sure) and we will get some back story on what happened while the Colonists were away.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

dcheesi said:


> Well it's not like Tigh was gonna fight for the position, considering what he knew about himself...


True. So why not make President Lee the new Admiral? Heck, he's done everything else... even commanded a Battlestar before. Need someone to fill in as Admiral, Lawyer, President, fry cook, bartender... this sounds like a job for Superman Lee!!! 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> You may well be right, but only because if you are it's a HUGE cheat and that's not something that would surprise me too much on this show.
> 
> But it SHOULD be Earth, and I suspect it is.


I agree. In fact when they first jumped there and Gaita (I think) made the statement that the "constellations match", or something to that effect, I took that to mean that they were in fact at Earth.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

orome said:


> They found the Earth That Was.


My first thought, as well!


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

jschuur said:


> The recent rumor went that there might be up to 3 made for TV movies made _this_ summer to air _before_ the 2nd half of season four.
> 
> Seems a little odd though. _Several_ movies? It's already June.


Well it looks like they'll make them this summer and then air them this fall.

Seems like a waste though. Like Razor, they're supposed to be expansions on the story thus far. Does anybody really want more about the story we've already seen? Let's just move the thing along already!


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> My first thought, as well!


Yeah it did look pretty used up, didn't it?


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

appleye1 said:


> Well it looks like they'll make them this summer and then air them this fall.
> 
> Seems like a waste though. Like Razor, they're supposed to be expansions on the story thus far. Does anybody really want more about the story we've already seen? Let's just move the thing along already!


So don't watch them and just wait for the last episode.


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## Maximus67 (Mar 22, 2002)

Ok, enought of these silly plot discussusions.

Did anybody notice Adama drooling on Lee's hand while he was having his emotional breakdown?

Also (and I may be crazy) but it looked like Roslyn was pinching Baltar's nipple while she was bandaging him. Anyone catch that?


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## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

Wow.

I had thought they might find an Earth before modern times, but I did not expect this. It's back in January you say?


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Maximus67 said:


> Did anybody notice Adama drooling on Lee's hand while he was having his emotional breakdown?


Yes.
Pretty good acting job by Mr. Olmos.


Maximus67 said:


> Also (and I may be crazy) but it looked like Roslyn was pinching Baltar's nipple while she was bandaging him. Anyone catch that?


Didn't see that, you might be crazy.

phox


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

zalusky said:


> So don't watch them and just wait for the last episode.


Nah, I'll watch them. 

Unlike some people I think even the worst BSG episode is better than most TV. I'm just more interested in seeing what's ahead rather than revisiting the past.
.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Maximus67 said:


> Ok, enought of these silly plot discussusions.
> 
> Did anybody notice Adama drooling on Lee's hand while he was having his emotional breakdown?
> 
> Also (and I may be crazy) but it looked like Roslyn was pinching Baltar's nipple while she was bandaging him. Anyone catch that?


Yeah the drooling was a bit much.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

One thing I forgot to mention is for me, this whole episode felt like a series finale! I had the same feeling watching this that I did when I watched Star Trek Voyager: Endgame (which is not to say I am comparing the quality of it to the other!!).

I am so glad there are going to be more episodes because they could very easily have ended the whole show like this. Can you imagine if this had been the very last one???


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I was really surprised when they just jumped straight to Earth. I thought that once they had the coordinates, it would still be a series of several jumps away, and the last several episodes of the series would deal with the adventures they had while trying to get there, with them arriving in the final episodes.


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## flaminio (May 21, 2004)

orome said:


> They found the Earth That Was.


That would explain the Firefly cameo from the miniseries .


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## Mr_Bester (Jan 27, 2007)

atrac said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is for me, this whole episode felt like a series finale! I had the same feeling watching this that I did when I watched Star Trek Voyager: Endgame (which is not to say I am comparing the quality of it to the other!!).
> 
> ...


This is the same as Crusade was planned. There was to be fallout from finding the cure on Crusade. There will be fallout from finding earth on Galactica. (JMS even called it the Voyager problem I think)

As far as the ep goes, I thought it was decent, and I guess I am the only one
who, once the show started, thought they would find earth by the end of this ep. What other cliffhanger could the give us. ---Here are the four we know and the fifth is right behind this door cut to "..to be continued". There weren't a whole lot of other options.

Dug


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Maximus67 said:


> Also (and I may be crazy) but it looked like Roslyn was pinching Baltar's nipple while she was bandaging him. Anyone catch that?


Had to go back to the previous episode to check that one out! I didn't see any nipple pinching, but I did notice a shot of her holding the IV Bag on Balter's chest before she even took it out and hooked it up.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Maximus67 said:


> Did anybody notice Adama drooling on Lee's hand while he was having his emotional breakdown?





phox_mulder said:


> Yes.
> Pretty good acting job by Mr. Olmos.


It was an even better actink job by Jamie Bamber. If it were me, I'd jump back and scream "EWWWWWWW! Dude, you totally drooled on me!!!!"


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

so, finally watched this and, let me see if i have this right. the viper basically told them 'go here' and the cylon 5 (4, whatever), kara, all their searching, revealing, hearing 'music', etc., was just to set up a viper that came from nowhere leading them back to earth in one jump? 

then {and i'm sure this has been brought up, sorry if i'm repeating} kara figures it out and RUNS through a fracking battlestar instead of picking up the, oh, i dunno, PHONE and then magically everyone who was just about to nuke each other and blow people out of airlocks stops and gets together for a kumbaya moment b/c MagicViper(tm) squaked?

oh, and earth is a desolate, destroyed planet, so the magic viper came from, um, where again (wasn't the cylons or humans, so who the frack did that?)

and during this wonderful storyline, the one cool character on the show turns into this sniveling, dribbling shell of a leader?

w

t

f


i've been pretty tolerant/supportive of the show/crappy plot lines/etc. but am i just missing something {please say "yeah, you missed this critical thing!!"}??


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was really surprised when they just jumped straight to Earth. I thought that once they had the coordinates, it would still be a series of several jumps away, and the last several episodes of the series would deal with the adventures they had while trying to get there, with them arriving in the final episodes.


I interpretted that as "We, the directors, edited out the additional jumps." They did mention that it was a series of jumps when they were looking at the charts, and Adama said that they'd go fast to keep the fleet from falling apart again.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> I think the writers forgot that cylons don't do well around radiation.


only the special kind of radiation around Ragnar...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

tcesario said:


> From a TV Squad thread...looks like New York...
> 
> http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg


The two bridges look kinda, sorta, almost somewhat similar.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

pjenkins said:


> so, finally watched this and, let me see if i have this right. the viper basically told them 'go here' and the cylon 5 (4, whatever), kara, all their searching, revealing, hearing 'music', etc., was just to set up a viper that came from nowhere leading them back to earth in one jump?
> 
> then {and i'm sure this has been brought up, sorry if i'm repeating} kara figures it out and RUNS through a fracking battlestar instead of picking up the, oh, i dunno, PHONE and then magically everyone who was just about to nuke each other and blow people out of airlocks stops and gets together for a kumbaya moment b/c MagicViper(tm) squaked?
> 
> ...


They left the writing in season 2.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> and during this wonderful storyline, the one cool character on the show turns into this sniveling, dribbling shell of a leader?


He hasn't been the greatest leader for a while. I'm pretty sure that neither Leonidas, Patton or George Washington would have resigned his command to wait for his girlfriend to come back home.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> He hasn't been the greatest leader for a while. I'm pretty sure that neither Leonidas, Patton or George Washington would have resigned his command to wait for his girlfriend to come back home.


well, in retrospect, it was a good decision...

also, the breakdown was in private and only with his son around...who knows how many breakdowns these great men have had in private yet lived to lead many a great battle?


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

I thought it was amusing that a fleet of warships just "appears" in earth orbit. Shouldn't they try a less brutal way to introduce themselves?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I was really surprised when they just jumped straight to Earth. I thought that once they had the coordinates, it would still be a series of several jumps away, and the last several episodes of the series would deal with the adventures they had while trying to get there, with them arriving in the final episodes.


+ me....blew me away when they zoomed out with the ships and earth to the left.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Tsiehta said:


> I thought it was amusing that a fleet of warships just "appears" in earth orbit. Shouldn't they try a less brutal way to introduce themselves?


To whom? Didn't look like there was anyone to introduce themselves to...(of course, they might not have known that ahead of time...)


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Tsiehta said:


> I thought it was amusing that a fleet of warships just "appears" in earth orbit. Shouldn't they try a less brutal way to introduce themselves?


Apollo did mention that he has a recon team put together, but Adama said that they were just going to go in as fast as possible. In the real world, that would be a really stupid idea, but in the BSG world, where the writers decided "We've gotta cram getting to earth into the first half of the season", it was the only way to get it into the allotted time frame.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

doom1701 said:


> Apollo did mention that he has a recon team put together, but Adama said that they were just going to go in as fast as possible. In the real world, that would be a really stupid idea, but in the BSG world, where the writers decided "We've gotta cram getting to earth into the first half of the season", it was the only way to get it into the allotted time frame.


not really...the same scene could have said "recon team confirms the location of earth" and then Adama giving the order to go...

I prefer the way it was done...the alliance was tenuous at best and this made a lot more sense (and more dramatic since they didn't know if they'd found it until they were ALL there)...


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Anubys said:


> not really...the same scene could have said "recon team confirms the location of earth" and then Adama giving the order to go...
> 
> I prefer the way it was done...the alliance was tenuous at best and this made a lot more sense (and more dramatic since they didn't know if they'd found it until they were ALL there)...


But would they have gone if the recon team came back and said "It seems to be earth--but it's a nuclear wasteland"? Yeah, the end result would have probably been the same, but it wouldn't have had the same punch as Adama grabbing a fistfull of soil and the gieger counter going off on it.


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## Mr. Belboz (Dec 3, 1999)

Trying to remember back trough the mess that has been this season....

Didn't Starbuck say she had been to earth? I was trying to remember if she said she had actually landed on earth and if she talked about the conditions on the planet, or if she had just seen it from space. If she had in fact found and landed on the earth they all landed on in this episode, she wouldn't have been as excited about the desolate planet.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I did love the shots of the ships coming into orbit. Of course if it had been present day Earth, they would have been blown out of the sky, but it was pretty cool.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Mr. Belboz said:


> If she had in fact found and landed on the earth they all landed on in this episode, she wouldn't have been as excited about the desolate planet.


Desolate planet? For all they know they could have landed in New York after it's been converted to a high security prison.

Greg


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr. Belboz said:


> Trying to remember back trough the mess that has been this season....
> 
> Didn't Starbuck say she had been to earth? I was trying to remember if she said she had actually landed on earth and if she talked about the conditions on the planet, or if she had just seen it from space. If she had in fact found and landed on the earth they all landed on in this episode, she wouldn't have been as excited about the desolate planet.


I'm pretty sure all she said was that she'd been there "in space", not actually on the planet...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

gchance said:


> Desolate planet? For all they know they could have landed in New York after it's been converted to a high security prison.
> 
> Greg


Ah...one of my favorite movies....gotta love a bad-ass Kurt Russell.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

gchance said:


> Desolate planet? For all they know they could have landed in New York after it's been converted to a *high security* prison.


The security couldn't have been all that high.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

doom1701 said:


> Apollo did mention that he has a recon team put together, but Adama said that they were just going to go in as fast as possible. In the real world, that would be a really stupid idea, but in the BSG world, where the writers decided "We've gotta cram getting to earth into the first half of the season", it was the only way to get it into the allotted time frame.


If they'd left out the useless storyline about the crazy lawyer and his dead cat a few episodes back, they would have had time to dedicate at least half of this episode to the discovery and exploration of Earth.

I kept waiting for Adama to find the video camera from Cloverfield.


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## AlphaDelta (Jan 9, 2007)

So the Hybrid's prediction that Starbuck is the "Harbinger of Death" would seem to be true, as the Earth is "dead".


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Ah...one of my favorite movies....gotta love a bad-ass Kurt Russell.


Snake, I thought you were dead...

I heard rumors of a remake being made of that...


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## kemajor (Jan 2, 2003)

Mars Rocket said:


> I don't think it's Earth. Consider:
> 
> o The city is not obviously recognizable
> o There were no recognizable continents shown
> ...


I'm not saying you are wrong but I will point out Mr Gaeta was ordered to "take his time" before he announced that the constellations matched the ones from the weird vision in, what was it, Athena's cave/temple or whatever.

- Kelly


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

busyba said:


> The security couldn't have been all that high.


Medium. They ruled out gliders and battlestars. Silly them.



kaszeta said:


> Snake, I thought you were dead...


Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!

Greg


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> Snake, I thought you were dead...
> 
> I heard rumors of a remake being made of that...


I'd heard that, too, but haven't been able to turn up anything to substantiate it.  of course, it would HAVE to have KR in it.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I'd heard that, too, but haven't been able to turn up anything to substantiate it.


Like so many other projects in Hollywood, it's been in development hell.

After the success of _300_, Gerard Butler was attached to star but he bounced after creative differences. However, as recently as two weeks ago, word is the remake is still on (see the last paragraph).

This is not say it'll ever actually get made.


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## Pralix (Dec 8, 2001)

My thoughts:

Starbuck assumes the signal in the Viper is from Earth. Like a previous poster said, while it is unclear if she was on the actual planet or in orbit. I would assume a viper would have the capability to determine the status of a planet though.

Deanna did make a comment that 4 of the 5 were in the colonial fleet. If the fifth isn't in either fleet, then they have yet to go to the location where the fifth cylon is.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Ok, this is a semi-smeak


kjnorman said:


> +1
> 
> As they panned up and showed the city I was have expecting the remains of Liberty. Glad they didn't do it as it would have been too cheesy. Still, the city still looked too much like New York for my liking, but of course I was thinking Plant of the Apes so I had already "programmed" my mind to see that


I'm pretty sure they _were_ standing in the ruins of Liberty.

The pan to the right just before the credits showed what looked to me to have been the broken off bottom of her torch lying on its side in the ruins. And the twisted metal arches easily could be the remains of the viewing area at the base of her crown.



ThePennyDropped said:


> More seriously, if the place was so radioactive (that was a geiger counter, wasn't it?), what were all their most important personnel doing there?


Well it would depend on how sensitive the geiger counter was set to, but it wasn't clicking very fast. I'd suspect that it was mildly radioactive, but nothing to worry about just standing there.

(Yeah, they _could_ have dialed down its sensitivity to the point where a slow clicking means near instant death, but it's unlikely they would)



jking said:


> I agree. In fact when they first jumped there and Gaita (I think) made the statement that the "constellations match", or something to that effect, I took that to mean that they were in fact at Earth.


I like the fact that he considers it more important to check the constellations that to mention that they're about to collide with a planet 
(Seriously they were only one jump from Earth, and popped in within 200 miles? yeah, sure)


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Didn't someone post an article recently about this episode. And the article said everything would come together and you would understand everything that has been building up until now?

So was that article a puff piece written by one of the writers of the show?

J


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

kjnorman said:


> ...As they panned up and showed the city...


Call me a picker of nits, but you *TILT* up and down and *PAN * right and left...


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Mars Rocket said:


> Also, isn't Earth supposed to be the 13th *colony*? Where is the homeworld? Maybe that's where they should be heading. Maybe this is the homeworld, and they still need to find Earth. How much history do the 12 colonies have, anyway? When were they supposed to have been settled? 600 years ago? 6,000 years ago?


I could be completely wrong about this, but isn't Kobol supposed to be the homeworld? They've already found that.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

danterner said:


> I could be completely wrong about this, but isn't Kobol supposed to be the homeworld? They've already found that.


I think Kobol is where they stopped off for a while. It was at Kobol where the 13 tribe decided to go find Earth while the rest went on to settle the other colonies.

I don't think it's been explained where they came from before, or why they couldn't stay at Kobol.

J


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## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

jwjody said:


> Didn't someone post an article recently about this episode. And the article said everything would come together and you would understand everything that has been building up until now?
> 
> So was that article a puff piece written by one of the writers of the show?
> 
> J


I think that article was referring to the series finale, not the mid-season finale we saw Friday.

--Debbie


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ThePennyDropped said:


> I think that article was referring to the series finale, not the mid-season finale we saw Friday.


No, it was about this episode. (The writer expressed surprise that stuff he/she thought wouldn't be revealed until later got revealed so early.)

It was, to put it mildly, a puff-piece.

As for Kobol/Earth, according to the Colonies' mythology, Kobol is the homeworld and Earth is the 13th Colony. But logically the Colonies' mythology has to be wrong since humanity evolved on Earth. So either the writers' intent is that Earth is the homeworld and the Colonies got it wrong, or their grasp of science is pretty poor.

Toss-up, I guess.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it was about this episode. (The writer expressed surprise that stuff he/she thought wouldn't be revealed until later got revealed so early.)


http://blog.zap2it.com/korbitv/2008/06/i-have-seen-fri.html

The article starts out talking about the episode we just said, and the writer is gushing about it. Then at the end they talk about the SERIES finale, quoting both Tricia Helfer and Mary McDonnell. I was going to copy/paste here, but decided not to. I suppose I can spoiler-tag it. 



Spoiler



Speaking of a long time, I'm sure you're all aware that after this Friday, the show will go on hiatus and an air date for the final 11 hours has not yet been announced by Sci Fi. But according to a reliable source, the network does hope to roll them out before the end of the year [Update: According to the Sci Fi network, a decision regarding the second half of the season has not yet been finalized. Early 2009 is a possibility]. The cast is currently shooting the series finale and tonight Tricia Helfer told us that when Edward James Olmos (pictured above left with co-stars Jamie Bamber and Katee Sackhoff) and Aaron Douglas finished reading that last script, they both cried. She, on the other hand, felt as if someone had punched her in the gut. Mary McDonnell (pictured below left), however, had a different experience. She said it felt like a shot of adrenaline: "I got so very excited, and I'll tell you why, because it started to resonate for me. I went backwards and began to see all of the episodes through the lens of knowing [how it all ends] and -- look, I have goosebumps now -- I was blown away by knowing what was said at the beginning and where you will all find yourselves [at the end]. I just think it's phenomenal."



So there you go. 

Greg


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Call me a picker of nits, but you *TILT* up and down and *PAN * right and left...


"Panning" can (very fairly) be used to describe _any_ shot where the camera moves since modern camera techniques (hand-held, steadicam, cranes, etc) allow for greater freedom. Tilt and Pan, at least as you're using them, are a vestige of the days when folks only had tripods.

An especially unfair nit when you consider that the shot in question (the reveal of the bridge) actually _is_ a pan, even by your dated definition.


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## nedthelab (Oct 4, 2002)

Coming in late this huge thread, bt what a great ep, I did not at all expect a jump to "earth". But the playout of the final 4 coming out was great and hopefully Tory will get hers.

Was it New York? It sure looked like it but some of the comments made thus far in this forum seem to point that this is a red herring and I think true earth is still ahead of us, or the whole thing will end with an image of a starship in a snow globe.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> Ok, this is a semi-smeak
> I'm pretty sure they _were_ standing in the ruins of Liberty.
> 
> The pan to the right just before the credits showed what looked to me to have been the broken off bottom of her torch lying on its side in the ruins. And the twisted metal arches easily could be the remains of the viewing area at the base of her crown.


Funny you should say that. I posted in the thread earlier that it looked like NYC to me. I almost added that it reminded me of the view from Liberty Island. However, I have only been there (NYC) once, so am not an expert on it. I deleted the part about Liberty Island and just left that it reminded me of NYC.


----------



## mgk (Oct 23, 2003)

I think i figured it out.

The one true god is going to be a cylon named Wall-E.

I recognized that city in ruins from the Wall-E Trailers!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

hanumang said:


> "Panning" can (very fairly) be used to describe _any_ shot where the camera moves since modern camera techniques (hand-held, steadicam, cranes, etc) allow for greater freedom. Tilt and Pan, at least as you're using them, are a vestige of the days when folks only had tripods.
> 
> An especially unfair nit when you consider that the shot in question (the reveal of the bridge) actually _is_ a pan, even by your dated definition.


Wrong...I still work the occasional TV camera in the trade, and it's STILL pan right and left and TILT up and down. And the quote I pointed out specifically said "...they panned up..."


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## lordargent (Nov 12, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Wrong...I still work the occasional TV camera in the trade, and it's STILL pan right and left and TILT up and down. And the quote I pointed out specifically said "...they panned up..."


What we have here is a classic case of a trade definition not meaning the same thing as the dictionary definition.

pan: to photograph or televise while rotating a camera on its vertical or horizontal axis in order to keep a moving person or object in view or allow the film to record a panorama: to pan from one end of the playing field to the other during the opening of the football game.

tilt: to move (a camera) up or down on its vertical axis for photographing or televising a moving character, object, or the like.

/wikipedia doesn't mention rotating on the vertical axis

/but don't mind me, I'm more famaliar with still photography, where the goal is to NOT have the camera move


----------



## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But...that would mean they don't know anything about science!
> 
> In-con-CEIVABLE!
> 
> It's interesting, though. When they did that bit, I thought "Well, it sounds like background radiation so it must be OK. Then again, they might not know how a Geiger Counter works, so maybe it's NOT OK." Which is why I think a reasonable level of scientific accuracy is so important in a science fiction show...once they've established a record of not knowing and/or caring about science, then no science they use means anything. The Geiger Counter is presumably a significant plot point--it's meant to represent whether or not the Earth is habitable. But we have no way of knowing (unless you read the subtitles, apparently) which answer they meant us to get. And if you've been paying attention throughout the show then you KNOW that there's no way of telling what the Geiger Counter represents, because they so often get that kind of thing wrong.


You're preaching to the choir brother, Amen!


----------



## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

Ian said:


> Of course, it's possible that it's the ruins of the IKEA that's supposed to open up in Red Hook next week...
> 
> ...and thousands of years later, the phrase "furniture of horror" got morphed into "temple of Aurora"...
> 
> ...


OK. I busted a gut on this one.  :up:


----------



## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

jwjody said:


> How about we take it a step further...
> 
> The other spylons come and there is a fight and either they all join forces or the bad cylons are killed. Since Earth isn't the paradise they expected and there are no more cylons to run from they decide to go back and repopulate the colonies.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Just cheesy enough to do the trick. It could work.


----------



## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

markz said:


> Funny you should say that. I posted in the thread earlier that it looked like NYC to me. I almost added that it reminded me of the view from Liberty Island.


There were no recognizable buildings. It's a generic city across from some water. Other than that, it resembles NYC in no way that I could identify. It could be London across the Thames, or maybe San Francisco from Marin county. Or any of about a hundred other cities with large rivers nearby.

I'll repeat myself: I think it's odd that they *didn't* make the planet or the city recognizable. If you're trying to show that it *is* the Earth, or the it *is* NYC, why hide the fact? Why cover the planet with so many clouds that you can't see any continents? Why not show a recognizable landmark?

Bad writing?


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I lke the idea of Sydney and the opera house near the bridge.


----------



## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Actually, my first impression was that it was the Sydney Harbor Bridge, as well. I saw no signs of the Opera House, though. 

--Debbie


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Do we know what time period BSG takes place in? Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of years in the future?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Do we know what time period BSG takes place in? Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of years in the future?


no...nor in the past for that matter...

we don't even know for sure if their Earth is our Earth!


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

lordargent said:


> /wikipedia doesn't mention rotating on the vertical axis


Actually, it does:

_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Panning refers to the horizontal movement or rotation of a film or video camera, or the scanning of a subject horizontally on video or a display device. Panning a camera results in a motion similar to that of someone shaking their head "no".

Movie and television cameras pan by turning horizontally on a vertical axis, but the effect may be enhanced by adding other techniques, such as rails to move the whole camera platform. Slow panning is also combined with zooming in or out on a single subject, leaving the subject in the same portion of the frame, to emphasize or de-emphasize the subject respectively._


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jradford said:


> Actually, it does:
> 
> _From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> ...


no disrespect, but seriously, folks, can we just agree to let this argument drop or someone can start a thread dedicated to the discussion?

I'd like to pan/tilt back to where most of us are sitting, discussing the original topic


----------



## J4yDubs (Jul 3, 2002)

AlphaDelta said:


> So the Hybrid's prediction that Starbuck is the "Harbinger of Death" would seem to be true, as the Earth is "dead".


I figured that message was tied to the Resurrection Hub being destroyed. Now death has been brought to the Cylons.

John


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> no disrespect, but seriously, folks, can we just agree to let this argument drop or someone can start a thread dedicated to the discussion?
> 
> I'd like to pan/tilt back to where most of us are sitting, discussing the original topic


That's why I'm the rouser of rabbles...


----------



## kmccbf (Mar 9, 2002)

While I did think of planet of the Apes. I also thought of Atlantis. Maybe Galataca restarts the human race. 

Personally, I think the 5th cyclon is on earth somewhere. Or it could Rosaland. Maybe deanna wasn't joking when she said "you are one" to her.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

kmccbf said:


> While I did think of planet of the Apes. I also thought of Atlantis. Maybe Galataca restarts the human race.
> 
> Personally, I think the 5th cyclon is on earth somewhere. Or it could Rosaland. Maybe deanna wasn't joking when she said "you are one" to her.


I'm sure when the writers randomly pull a name from a hat to decide who is the final cylon, they'll let us know.


----------



## bigray327 (Apr 14, 2000)

Wow, this was Season 1 level excitement for me. I didn't know it was the mid-season ender, so I was surprised they made it to "Earth."

This was some great BSG. The looks on their faces when they got to the surface of the planet were amazing. I liked how each cylon and each human seemed to be dealing with the disappointment differently. Good acting. And Adama's meltdown, followed by his speech were also very well-done.

I was very surprised that the four ended up really being four of the final five cylons. I thought for sure they were red herrings.

I agree that it's probably not Earth. Nothing in any of the visions said that this planet, with all of its matching constellations and all, would be the final destination. It could just be a step along the way, and will point them to Earth.

Lastly, just speculation, I think the rest of the season will deal with what happens when the rest of the "bad" cylons arrive. Maybe the good cylons and the bad cylons will wipe each other out, leaving just the humans on Earth. Then in a couple hundred years, they start to build machines, and it all happens again.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Mars Rocket said:


> I'll repeat myself: I think it's odd that they *didn't* make the planet or the city recognizable. If you're trying to show that it *is* the Earth, or the it *is* NYC, why hide the fact? Why cover the planet with so many clouds that you can't see any continents? Why not show a recognizable landmark?
> 
> Bad writing?


Actually, that was the thing I liked the most about it. It wasn't obviously Earth and it wasn't obvious where they chose to land. Too often, movies and tv shows make obvious, American-centric choices for the place of "first contact". By doing it the way they did, it could be anywhere on Earth, or it might not even be Earth.

I'm surprised that no one mentioned that the one thing we did see that was identifiable was the large (presumably Christian) cross on the ground.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Do we know what time period BSG takes place in? Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of years in the future?


I thought it was a long time ago in a galaxy far away....


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't think we can take Deanna's statement that only 4 of the 5 are in the fleet at face value. She might have been meaning the fifth was on the base ship with her when she made that statement, or she might simply be lying. She's shown she's capable of lying when it suits her needs. And besides, I don't think she has met every single one of the 40,000 or so humans left in the fleet. So she either knows exactly where the fifth is, or she's lying and the fifth could easily still be someone in the fleet (including a main character she has yet to meet). I can't imagine them making the fifth someone we haven't met yet.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

bigray327 said:


> I agree that it's probably not Earth. Nothing in any of the visions said that this planet, with all of its matching constellations and all, would be the final destination. It could just be a step along the way, and will point them to Earth.


wat?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jking said:


> I don't think we can take Deanna's statement that only 4 of the 5 are in the fleet at face value. She might have been meaning the fifth was on the base ship with her when she made that statement, or she might simply be lying. She's shown she's capable of lying when it suits her needs. And besides, I don't think she has met every single one of the 40,000 or so humans left in the fleet. So she either knows exactly where the fifth is, or she's lying and the fifth could easily still be someone in the fleet (including a main character she has yet to meet). I can't imagine them making the fifth someone we haven't met yet.


I agree with the point that she can't know every one of the survivors...however, there's no way for her to know that the fifth is different from the other 4 (she met the 5 for a fleeting couple of seconds)...so there was no way for her to know that only 4 were programmed to hear the music and meet and discover the truth about themselves...

this means that the fifth was already on the base star, left (e.g. Billy) or died (e.g. the preacher woman)...


----------



## bigray327 (Apr 14, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> wat?


Should I speak louder?


----------



## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

It's earth, that I'm certain of.

I'm also certain that the "final 4" are, as I've been saying, not skin jobs. They're mystical. They're a special part of Cylon mythology, and they are ordinary humans that have been "chosen by God".

I'm also growing more certain of my "two Starbucks" theory. I just haven't really fleshed it out yet.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

kmccbf said:


> While I did think of planet of the Apes. I also thought of Atlantis. Maybe Galataca restarts the human race.
> 
> Personally, I think the 5th cyclon is on earth somewhere. Or it could Rosaland. Maybe deanna wasn't joking when she said "you are one" to her.


I looked at it again and while the bridge looked familiar, the rest of the ruins didn't look like "modern" ruins. Like what our cities would look like when they fell. They looked more futuristic than that.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I agree with the point that she can't know every one of the survivors...however, there's no way for her to know that the fifth is different from the other 4 (she met the 5 for a fleeting couple of seconds)...


Unless the 5th is visually different. 
If the 5th she saw at the opera house didn't look human, then it's a safe bet that it's not somewhere in the fleet.

<shrug> hopefully the writers will remember to tell us how she knew the 5th wasn't in the fleet.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

bigray327 said:


> Should I speak louder?


no, more intelligently  it's definitely Earth.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

In her vision of the 5, Deanna apologized to one of them. Was it Tighe or was it the unnamed cylon?

Hmmm...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> Unless the 5th is visually different.
> If the 5th she saw at the opera house didn't look human, then it's a safe bet that it's not somewhere in the fleet.
> 
> <shrug> hopefully the writers will remember to tell us how she knew the 5th wasn't in the fleet.


you're absolutely right...so the possibilities so far are

1. not human
2. on the base star at the time
3. dead (e.g the preacher)
4. missing (Billy)

any other possibilities?


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> you're absolutely right...so the possibilities so far are
> 
> 1. not human
> 2. on the base star at the time
> ...


5. Deanna was bluffing or wrong


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> 5. Deanna was bluffing or wrong


she can't be...

she saw 5...we KNOW that (unless one of them had a copy!)...she had no way of knowing which 4 would be linked and thus could not bluff or lie about that unless the fifth is one of the possibilities above...

but I guess we added one more possibility: the 5 Deanna saw had only 4 plus a copy of 1 of the 4...


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Anubys said:


> she can't be...
> 
> she saw 5...we KNOW that (unless one of them had a copy!)...she had no way of knowing which 4 would be linked and thus could not bluff or lie about that unless the fifth is one of the possibilities above...


Yes, she can be.

She can be wrong if the fifth is with the fleet and it's someone she hasn't seen yet.

And she can be lying/bluffing if, for instance, Tory told her that there was a link between the four and that they still didn't know who the fifth was. Deanna could have decided to use the fact that she was the only one who knew the identity of the fifth to her advantage by lying and saying that the fifth wasn't with the fleet.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

jking said:


> Yes, she can be.
> 
> She can be wrong if the fifth is with the fleet and it's someone she hasn't seen yet.
> 
> And she can be lying/bluffing if, for instance, Tory told her that there was a link between the four and that they still didn't know who the fifth was. Deanna could have decided to use the fact that she was the only one who knew the identity of the fifth to her advantage by lying and saying that the fifth wasn't with the fleet.


I think that Tory came over to the BaseStar after the 3 made the comment about the 4 being with the fleet.


----------



## ThePennyDropped (Jul 5, 2006)

Any guesses about why D'Anna had visions (accurate, informative ones) when downloading and the other cylons didn't? Or why she had visions at all? Are these visions being sent to her by the same source as the signal in Kara's Raptor?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Didn't Billy die? Is he just missing? I thought he was shot.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

danterner said:


> Didn't Billy die? Is he just missing? I thought he was shot.


Yes, dead.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ThePennyDropped said:


> Any guesses about why D'Anna had visions (accurate, informative ones) when downloading and the other cylons didn't? Or why she had visions at all? Are these visions being sent to her by the same source as the signal in Kara's Raptor?


I thought she saw the five when she was in that temple on the algae planet.


----------



## flaminio (May 21, 2004)

hefe said:


> Yes, dead.


Maybe he was resurrected?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

flaminio said:


> Maybe he was resurrected?


Perhaps. But then wouldn't the resurrected Billy be with the cylons already? Wouldn't the 6's see Billy come out of the goo and go "what the frak?"


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

hefe said:


> Perhaps. But then wouldn't the resurrected Billy be with the cylons already? Wouldn't the 6's see Billy come out of the goo and go "what the frak?"


And that would involve them having had a spare Billy body on hand for him to download into, in which case they all would have always known about him.

Or maybe Billy's mind got downloaded into a 6 body. Man, if that happened to me, I woudn't leave my house for a few weeks. Then I'd go out and hit the closest lesbian club.


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

busyba said:


> Or maybe Billy's mind got downloaded into a 6 body. Man, if that happened to me, I woudn't leave my house for a few weeks. Then I'd go out and hit the closest lesbian club.


One of the best lines from L.A. Story is Steve Martin saying, "I could never be a woman, I'd just sit at home and play with my breasts all day."

J


----------



## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

I always find it funny in shows and movies, which happens ALL the time, when someone (like Starbuck) has to run from one location to another to stop an event from happening or in this case to stop Lee from pushing the airlock button. They have the dramatic music, people in her way, (I expect to see two men carrying a plate glass window)...when I'm sitting there wondering...can't she just pick up the phone/intercom or whatever? Hell, she could put it on the ship's loud speaker!! 

Usually this happens in shows and movies when the main character finds out that the killer they are after is now after his own family, and is heading to his house. I mean, this is such a repeated thing written into SO many scripts. He/she will jump in the car and have an "exciting" drive across town, avoiding traffic, speeding, and desperately trying to get to save the day...when they could have just called any other cop cars in the area to get to the house first.

besides that nitpick, I actually found the episode pretty good.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

About Billy



Spoiler



He just got a part on the new Knight Rider series as the head research tech



-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

net114 said:


> I always find it funny in shows and movies, which happens ALL the time, when someone (like Starbuck) has to run from one location to another to stop an event from happening or in this case to stop Lee from pushing the airlock button....[and so on]


Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran. Which is kind of a variant on another movie cliché, where the bad guys wait for the good guy to do whatever he has to do before the fight, instead of just blowing him away when they have the chance.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran. Which is kind of a variant on another movie cliché, where the bad guys wait for the good guy to do whatever he has to do before the fight, instead of just blowing him away when they have the chance.


Syndrome: You sly dog! You got me monologuing!


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran.


I always thought that in these instances the actions were going on at the same time, but they only showed one thing happening at a time so it only seemed like they're happening linearly.

J


----------



## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran. Which is kind of a variant on another movie cliché, where the bad guys wait for the good guy to do whatever he has to do before the fight, instead of just blowing him away when they have the chance.


Good point, I forgot about the other spylons. Even discounting some amount of time for things happening "at the same moment"...it doesn't discount a long fakey over dramatic run instead of picking up an intercom.


----------



## bryan314 (Nov 17, 2004)

Anubys said:


> you're absolutely right...so the possibilities so far are
> 
> 1. not human
> 2. on the base star at the time
> ...


5. The fifth was the one giving D'Anna visions and showed her a false face. 
6. The fifth is masking his/her presence and D'Anna could only feel the four.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran. Which is kind of a variant on another movie cliché, where the bad guys wait for the good guy to do whatever he has to do before the fight, instead of just blowing him away when they have the chance.


Dr. Evil: "You just don't get it, do you?" 

probably my favorite part in the whole movie...

Chronology: Deanna keeps getting herself killed as she thinks she can see the final five during the journey between death and resurrection...she finally succeeds and sees all 5...as soon as resurrects, and before she reveals to the others what she has seen, her entire model is boxed.

This is before the 4 spylons start hearing music or discover the truth about themselves.

Deanna is unboxed and knows nothing of what is going on...I wonder if she even knew there were humans on board the base star other than Helo, the president and maybe Baltar (hmmm!)...she then announces with certainty that 4 of the 5 are on Galactica...she had NO IDEA that 4 spylons have discovered each other but not the 5th (again, unless there's something unique about the fifth)...

now, maybe the 5th isn't on Galactica (Zarek, for example, would be on the presidential ship) but that would not make sense because why restrict her demands to those spylons on Galactica? better yet, how would she know that tyra was on Galactica and not with Zarek or on any other ship? she had no idea about any of this so it would have been impossible for her to bluff or make a lie so close to the truth...and if she wanted all 5, why restrict her demands to only those on Galactica?

as for resurrection of the fifth, that is easily explainable: they have their own resurrection hub...if their identity is secret, it makes no sense to resurrect in the same place as the other 7...

the only possible explanation is that Deanna is telling the truth and that the revelation of the 5th will fit that truth somehow...


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

AlphaDelta said:


> So the Hybrid's prediction that Starbuck is the "Harbinger of Death" would seem to be true, as the Earth is "dead".


I believe they further clarified and said that she would lead Humanity to it's destruction if they followed her. That would be a specific reference to the fleet. There is still time for that to happen if she trys to lead them elsewhere.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Indeed. And what makes it especially egregious in this case is that the Spylons had their finger on the button ready to blow the humans away...and they just stopped and sat there patiently waiting while Starbuck ran. Which is kind of a variant on another movie cliché, where the bad guys wait for the good guy to do whatever he has to do before the fight, instead of just blowing him away when they have the chance.


I think they were actually waiting to see what Lee's next move would be. If he had spaced Tigh, that might very well have triggered the nuclear attack on the fleet.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> now, maybe the 5th isn't on Galactica (Zarek, for example, would be on the presidential ship) but that would not make sense because why restrict her demands to those spylons on Galactica? better yet, how would she know that tyra was on Galactica and not with Zarek or on any other ship? she had no idea about any of this so it would have been impossible for her to bluff or make a lie so close to the truth...and if she wanted all 5, why restrict her demands to only those on Galactica?


Well she actually said the fifth was not on the "fleet" so it's not just Galactica. My personal guess is the fifth was on the base ship given that Rosalyn, Adama, Baltar, Helo, and half the Galactica's pilots were there at the time.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

ronsch said:


> I think they were actually waiting to see what Lee's next move would be. If he had spaced Tigh, that might very well have triggered the nuclear attack on the fleet.


That's how I took it, too. They weren't waiting on Starbuck, they were waiting on Lee. Still doesn't explain why Starbuck didn't pick up a phone...


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

ronsch said:


> I believe they further clarified and said that she would lead Humanity to it's destruction if they followed her. That would be a specific reference to the fleet. There is still time for that to happen if she trys to lead them elsewhere.


The interesting thing to me is that the Hybid said that she would lead "them" to their destruction. She never said who "them" refered to.

"You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them to their destruction."


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

JoeyJoJo said:


> The interesting thing to me is that the Hybid said that she would lead "them" to their destruction. She never said who "them" refered to.
> 
> "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them to their destruction."


Maybe the "destruction" was referring to the destruction on earth that they've found, not the destruction of the remaining humans.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> as for resurrection of the fifth, that is easily explainable: they have their own resurrection hub...if their identity is secret, it makes no sense to resurrect in the same place as the other 7...
> 
> the only possible explanation is that Deanna is telling the truth and that the revelation of the 5th will fit that truth somehow...


Maybe the 5 don't need a resurrection ship. Maybe they can procreate like humans. The chief and Tigh have both apparently done so.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Maybe the 5 don't need a resurrection ship. Maybe they can procreate like humans. The chief and Tigh have both apparently done so.


but not into themselves...Chief's baby is a girl, right? that would be one UGLY girl


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> Maybe the 5 don't need a resurrection ship. Maybe they can procreate like humans. The chief and Tigh have both apparently done so.


And Tigh did so with a Six....


----------



## shady (May 31, 2002)

I really did think they were going to keep it like the original TV series. ie, they'd come back to 1970s America!!!


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> but not into themselves...Chief's baby is a girl, right? that would be one UGLY girl


Right. I believe the original skin jobs resurrect because they can't procreate (or at least couldn't until Boomer) so they resurrected instead. I don't think they would care about resurrecting if they could procreate instead. That was what they really wanted and why Hera was so important to them. Remember the experiments they were doing on Caprica seemed to be something to do with procreation. I bet that's where they are heading with this. The writers have blown up the resurrection ship so no more of that. The 5 can procreate with humans and other skinjobs so that's probably where it will end up.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> Right. I believe the original skin jobs resurrect because they can't procreate (or at least couldn't until Boomer) so they resurrected instead. I don't think they would care about resurrecting if they could procreate instead. That was what they really wanted and why Hera was so important to them. Remember the experiments they were doing on Caprica seemed to be something to do with procreation. I bet that's where they are heading with this. The writers have blown up the resurrection ship so no more of that. The 5 can procreate with humans and other skinjobs so that's probably where it will end up.


My thinking is that the five are human/skinjob hybrids that have been procreating for a long, long time. They possibly originated on Earth and were sent back "home" for whatever reason. The four we know (and the fifth) are not cylons in the sense that we know of the skinjobs now, they are simply descendants of the original five hybrids. They have markers in their bodies that have carried over all this time, which of course gives them the connection they have with each other. Basically they are the same as what Hera's great, great, great, great grandchildren would be (assuming of course that Helo isn't the fifth).


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## J4yDubs (Jul 3, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Maybe the 5 don't need a resurrection ship. Maybe they can procreate like humans. The chief and Tigh have both apparently done so.


If that's the case, then Helo is the 5th.

John


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

J4yDubs said:


> If that's the case, then Helo is the 5th.
> 
> John


Which makes sense. It would also mean that the cylons need the humans. They can only procreate with them or hybrids and genetic diversity would demand more options than 12. So cylons and humans live happily ever after. The End.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

J4yDubs said:


> If that's the case, then Helo is the 5th.
> 
> John


Possibly, but it's also possible that Sharon (being an 8) is one of the more advanced models and SHOULD have been able to procreate like the five, but for some reason she wasn't able to when she came off the assembly line, and therefore she was left with the 1-6 models.


----------



## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Maybe the 5 don't need a resurrection ship. Maybe they can procreate like humans. The chief and Tigh have both apparently done so.





Anubys said:


> but not into themselves...Chief's baby is a girl, right? that would be one UGLY girl


Which begs the following question.

Was the Hera' that Athena? saw in her vision of the opera house being picked up by a 6 actually a depicting the pregnancy of the captive 6?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> but not into themselves...Chief's baby is a girl, right?


A girl named Nick? I don't think so.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

A lot has been made about Final Five versus Final Four and where the Fifth is located. Here are the relevant conversations from the episode:

*On the Base Star:*

Leoben: You'll rejoin your fleet in less than an hour.
Roslin: Then we will return your Final Five to you.
D'Anna: Four. There are four in your fleet.
Roslin: Four? Where's the fifth?
D'Anna: I want the four in your fleet. 
Adama: It would be easier if you just tell us who they are.
D'Anna: Easier because you could kill them.
Roslin: Why woulld we do that? They know the way to Earth; we need them.
Leoben: She's right. We all want the same thing. If we cooperate -
D'Anna: We cooperated on New Caprica, brother. It didn't work out well. I'm going to hold your people hostage until the Final Four are safely aboard this ship.

*On Galactica's flight deck:*

D'Anna: The good news is that your president Laura Roslin is alive and well, as are your crewmates.
Adama: She wants the four cylons that are in this fleet. She's gonna hold our people hostage until she gets them.
D'anna: You don't have to do anything except stay out of the way. I'm already in contact with them. Now that they realize there's nothing to fear and that we only want to love and protect them, they should find a way of joining us. I just ask that you don't interfere with any of the shuttle traffic in the fleet.

She says this as Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and Tori are in her sight.

What does it mean? In my opinion, the Fifth Cylon is on the Base Star already, which D'Anna does not consider to be part of Adama's and Roslin's fleet. Who's on the Base Ship? Well, from the fleet, Helo, Roslin, Adama, Baltar.

Many are assuming the Fifth is also human, which I think is reasonable. I think it's Baltar, based on D'Anna's concern for him in the prior episode after she was unboxed and came across him in his wounded state.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

So Helo is a legit option...


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Or the fifth is no longer with any of them.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

I think the 5th IS Galactica


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

doom1701 said:


> It's earth, that I'm certain of.
> 
> I'm also certain that the "final 4" are, as I've been saying, not skin jobs.


They have to be. Didn't Tori show signs of superior strength when she tossed the Chief's wife across the airlock?

I think the procreation idea with Cylons needing the humans/Final Five to show them the way is most likely on target.

Rob


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## orome (Dec 30, 2004)

The base-star conversation reminded me of the intro to The Prisoner.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

robpickles said:


> They have to be. Didn't Tori show signs of superior strength when she tossed the Chief's wife across the airlock?


She was strong, but there are any number of explanations for that. Creative license, lower gravity in the airlock, etc. Heck, she's been screwing Baltar, and that's gotta be a workout!

Someone mentioned that they think the "reproduction" thing will become front and center again "next" season, and I think I agree, to a certain extent. I think the themes will be reproduction and resurrection, with both of them being intertwined.

The resurrection of the Cylons was a surprise to the fleet, so it's apparently not something that was built into the original Cylons that the humans created. We've looked at it more as a technological feat so far (resurrection ships, resurrection hub, "downloading", etc.). But the show is always quite light on technology, and very heavy on spirituality and mythology.

Both the ideas of resurrection and reproduction are ways that we seek to achieve immortality. Both have also always been tied very closely to religion, spirituality, etc. Humans reproduce ad naseum, it seems, while the Cylons have not been able to. But when a human dies, he's dead, while the Cylons used to resurrect. Both methods have their good points and bad.

There's a ton of philosophical stuff I could write about this, but I hesitate to simply because we all doubt that the writers actually care.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

shady said:


> I think the 5th IS Galactica


I've actually considered this, too, but I think it's a bit too far out there. Galactica seems to symbolize the opera house that we see in all of these dream sequences, but I'm not sure how it could actually BE the 5th.


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

robpickles said:


> They have to be. Didn't Tori show signs of superior strength when she tossed the Chief's wife across the airlock?
> 
> Rob


Callie was so annoying she could induce super human strength from just about anyone who was fighting her.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Wouldn't it be funny if Callie turned out to be the fifth Cylon? Maybe she has resurected somewhere and it waiting for the big revelation.

Nah!


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

ronsch said:


> Well she actually said the fifth was not on the "fleet" so it's not just Galactica. My personal guess is the fifth was on the base ship given that Rosalyn, Adama, Baltar, Helo, and half the Galactica's pilots were there at the time.


My take exactly. The fifth was one of the "humans" temporarily on the base ship at the time that she said that. Rosalyn, Adama, and Baltar are all prime candidates in my book. Baltar is the most obvious, which makes him the _least_ likely of those three. (Too obvious.)


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Wouldn't it be funny if Callie turned out to be the fifth Cylon? Maybe she has resurected somewhere and it waiting for the big revelation.
> 
> Nah!


That was the second thing I considered (after the thought that the fifth was one of the "humans" currently on the base ship) when D'Anna said, "There are four in your fleet." I've by no means ruled it out.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

And if thats the case you got another two cylons(Callie/Tyrol) making babies. Of course they would both be special cylons.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I don't buy Cally as a Cylon. Doesn't fit the personality archetype of the other 11 models. I see strength of purpose in the existing 11 that Cally simply never had. (save that time when she bit that prisoner's ear off) And it's clear that Tyrol never felt that strongly about Cally. And love, sweet love is _supposed_ to be the secret ingredient for Cylon procreation.

But Tyrol was nuts about Boomer, and vice versa. That's what I want to see in the second half of the season- those two in the same room together and see what happens.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Don't forget, Cally shot the original Boomer just like the Boomers shot Adama and Natalie (? was that the specific No. 6?). That was a bit out of character, like she was programmed for it.

Again I say, Nah!


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Hotdog is the fifth.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Don't forget, Cally shot the original Boomer just like the Boomers shot Adama and Natalie (? was that the specific No. 6?). That was a bit out of character, like she was programmed for it.
> 
> Again I say, Nah!


I don't think it was out of character at all...she was madly in love with Chief and Boomer was a cylon who shot and almost killed Adama...it made perfect sense...she could kill her rival for Chief AND get a commendation for it!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

What are the model numbers for the 4 of the 5?

I bet the final one will be number 9... number 9... number 9....


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

All along it seemed to have been established that skinjob Cylons could not pro-create with each other. You've got Boomer & Helo and Tyrol & Callie (and at this point it seems that neither Helo nor Callie were/are Cylons).

Seems like there's a lot of speculation now that maybe the Spylons actually CAN pro-create with skinjobs. Is that speculation all based on the 6 being held on Galactica being pregnant and that it's Tigh's child? It was established that many times when Tigh met with the 6 that he cleared everyone out and disabled the cameras, but my take on that is he was talking to her as one of the 4 - asking questions, trying to get information - and certainly didn't want a record of those conversations which would obviously out him as a Cylon.

Was it ever really established that Tigh is the father of the 6's child??? It was alluded to, and Tigh and Adama had one heck of a knock-down, drag-out over Adama's implication that the XO was doing the deed with the Cylon, but Tigh never admitted to it either, did he? And the only thing that would remotely make me think that things went that far between the two of them is the whole Ellen popping in aspect of it.

Maybe I'm missing something.

And absolutely no disrespect to Rob Helmrichs, but dude - I'm not sure I could watch this show with you. I watch this as a TV drama and just enjoy the ride. I couldn't watch it with an eye that this was even close to a documentary and that all the science had to make sense. Maybe I'm just one of the mindless masses, but at least I'm enjoying the show!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Tigh has no recollection of bedding Six. So I think it's wide open as to whether he's the father.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Tigh has no recollection of bedding Six. So I think it's wide open as to whether he's the father.


How do we know that he has no recollection?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JLucPicard said:


> And absolutely no disrespect to Rob Helmrichs, but dude - I'm not sure I could watch this show with you. I watch this as a TV drama and just enjoy the ride. I couldn't watch it with an eye that this was even close to a documentary and that all the science had to make sense. Maybe I'm just one of the mindless masses, but at least I'm enjoying the show!


Well, more power to ya, but this attitude--that science fiction can be held to a lower standard of writing than other fiction because it's just all science and stuff--baffles me at best and pisses me off at worst. The kind of stuff they try to pull off on BG is the equivalent of a Law & Order show having a police officer fly to catch the bad guy because it's easier that way, or changing the laws they operate under week to week, or having different characters being bullet-proof because it would make for a cool scene. people treat science fiction as if it's easier than "real" fiction because they don't have the same rules to operate under, but if they're trying to create a plausible world then it's a hell of a lot HARDER, because they have to invent all the rules that we take for granted on Law & Order, which is set in the world we all inhabit and thus whose rules are pretty deeply ingrained in our minds.

If you want to give them a break because they're lazy and they don't want to do the work but what the hey it's only science fiction, that's certainly your prerogative. But I refuse to excuse bad, lazy writing ESPECIALLY in science fiction, and I'm not apologetic about it. As far as I'm concerned, if they don't want to do the work necessary to write good science fiction then they should either admit that their writing is bad and lazy or they should go off and write Law & Order. But since they live in a country where 50% of the people don't "believe in evolution," I guess they're just playing to their audience.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Figaro said:


> How do we know that he has no recollection?


Maybe Baltar snuck in for a little old time memories.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

The twelve cylon models could be the twelve apostles of a future-Christ. The twelfth, unknown model could represent Judas?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Judas was the betrayer. Sounds like Baltar to me.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Figaro said:


> How do we know that he has no recollection?


I agree...he neither confirmed nor denied that he had sex with her...but all indications are that he did "hit it" 

we also have no idea if someone else (a guard or something) was also having his way with her...although that would not seem plausible since they have given us no indication at all that something like that was going on...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Figaro said:


> How do we know that he has no recollection?





Anubys said:


> I agree...he neither confirmed nor denied that he had sex with her...but all indications are that he did "hit it"
> 
> we also have no idea if someone else (a guard or something) was also having his way with her...although that would not seem plausible since they have given us no indication at all that something like that was going on...


When Adama confronted Tigh about what Doc Cottle told him, Tigh was taken aback and shocked and vigorously denied it, even saying something like, "that's impossible". I don't think he was just posturing - I truly think if it happened, Tigh has no memory of it.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

drew2k said:


> When Adama confronted Tigh about what Doc Cottle told him, Tigh was taken aback and shocked and vigorously denied it, even saying something like, "that's impossible". I don't think he was just posturing - I truly think if it happened, Tigh has no memory of it.


Of course that could be a lie, or he's saying it's impossible because he knows Cylons & Cylons can't have children together.

Greg


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

MacThor said:


> The twelve cylon models could be the twelve apostles of a future-Christ. The twelfth, unknown model could represent Judas?


Welcome to this week's episode of "Pimp My Post":

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6272665#post6272665


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...this attitude--that science fiction can be held to a lower standard of writing than other fiction because it's just all science and stuff--baffles me at best and pisses me off at worst. The kind of stuff they try to pull off on BG is the equivalent of a Law & Order show having a police officer fly to catch the bad guy because it's easier that way, or changing the laws they operate under week to week, or having different characters being bullet-proof *because it would make for a cool scene.* people treat science fiction as if it's easier than "real" fiction because they don't have the same rules to operate under, but if they're trying to create a plausible world then it's a hell of a lot HARDER, because they have to invent all the rules that we take for granted on Law & Order, which is set in the world we all inhabit and thus whose rules are pretty deeply ingrained in our minds.
> 
> If you want to give them a break because they're lazy and they don't want to do the work but what the hey it's only science fiction, that's certainly your prerogative. But I refuse to excuse bad, lazy writing ESPECIALLY in science fiction, and I'm not apologetic about it.


+1 ad infinitum

...believes in evolution


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

drew2k said:


> When Adama confronted Tigh about what Doc Cottle told him, Tigh was taken aback and shocked and vigorously denied it, even saying something like, "that's impossible". I don't think he was just posturing - I truly think if it happened, Tigh has no memory of it.


Maybe the Alzheimers outlook for us Tigh generation types ain't that bad


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

markz said:


> Funny you should say that. I posted in the thread earlier that it looked like NYC to me. I almost added that it reminded me of the view from Liberty Island.


That's funny, I thought the same thing.

This was by far the best episode of the season for me. I'd put this among the best episodes of the series. The reason I waited until this week to watch it is that I've come to dread watching new BSG episodes, since the majority this season have been so dull. When one is as good as this, I'm in shock.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the Earth storyline, especially in light of the fact that Greek Mythology has been their exclusive religion, not counting the recent Baltar Cylon religion cult. So say we all!


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

I think Tigh was denying it just because of how bad it looked. The information that Doc Cottle gave Adama seemed to give the implication that Cottle was positive about who the father was. I'd have to go back and rewatch the scene between Adama and Tigh to be sure.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ronsch said:


> I think Tigh was denying it just because of how bad it looked. The information that Doc Cottle gave Adama seemed to give the implication that Cottle was positive about who the father was. I'd have to go back and rewatch the scene between Adama and Tigh to be sure.


I think Doc was sure that Six was pregnant...add to it the fact that Tigh was the only one with her and he told the guards to go away and turned off the cameras, it didn't take a Adama two seconds to figure it out...


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> Okay, who didn't make some sort of remark about "those damn dirty apes" or "damn them all to hell!". Everyone watching it at my place did....


Actually, I immediately thought of Nelson Muntz.


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## Mishkin (Apr 20, 2002)

ronsch said:


> I think Tigh was denying it just because of how bad it looked. The information that Doc Cottle gave Adama seemed to give the implication that Cottle was positive about who the father was. I'd have to go back and rewatch the scene between Adama and Tigh to be sure.


Tigh simply reacted as any male would when informed that a woman who is not his wife might be pregnant...denial.


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## JLucPicard (Jul 8, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I think Doc was sure that Six was pregnant...add to it the fact that Tigh was the only one with her and he told the guards to go away and turned off the cameras, it didn't take a Adama two seconds to figure it out...


Tigh is the only one that has been shown going in there. I don't know that it necessarily means he is the only one that has been. Is it a case of editing and they're only showing what they want you to see? Or is it a solid fact that 24/7 Tigh is the only one that has had access?

It seemed to have been established early on (for what that's worth as some people will likely point out) that Cylons can't pro-create with each other. So far, I don't know that it's been established (beyond internet forum specualtion) that Tigh and the other three are anything more than skinjobs. I guess I'm not willing to take on faith that Tigh has been the only person on all of Galactica that has had opportunity to impregnate the 6. I am willing to conceed that based on what we've been shown, that might seem to be the case.

The conclusion that Adama jumped to seems to be totally within reason, but circumstantial eveidence isn't always fact.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JLucPicard said:


> Tigh is the only one that has been shown going in there. I don't know that it necessarily means he is the only one that has been. Is it a case of editing and they're only showing what they want you to see? Or is it a solid fact that 24/7 Tigh is the only one that has had access?
> 
> It seemed to have been established early on (for what that's worth as some people will likely point out) that Cylons can't pro-create with each other. So far, I don't know that it's been established (beyond internet forum specualtion) that Tigh and the other three are anything more than skinjobs. I guess I'm not willing to take on faith that Tigh has been the only person on all of Galactica that has had opportunity to impregnate the 6. I am willing to conceed that based on what we've been shown, that might seem to be the case.
> 
> The conclusion that Adama jumped to seems to be totally within reason, but circumstantial eveidence isn't always fact.


if someone else was interrogating or having sex with her, then the writers are full of crap (I know, I know)...they HAVE to give us an inkling of this; which can be easily done: Tigh comes into the interrogation room and relieves person A with "I'll take over from here"...that's enough for us to know that he's not the only one with access...

they didn't do ANYTHING like that...so they have absolutely no right to spring a different father on us...


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Mishkin said:


> Tigh simply reacted as any male would when informed that a woman who is not his wife might be pregnant...denial.


I think it was a reaction to him knowing that their both cylons, so he THINKS that it would be "impossible" for her to be pregnant.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Actually Tigh visualized his wife many times during the interrogation so it wouldn't surprised me if poked her during one of those moments (Or at least thinks he might have).


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

But how would Tigh (or any of the sleeper cylons) know about the inability for Cylon-Cylon babies? Was that knowledge ever made public to the fleet?

Wasn't this Six model the one having threesomes with Baltar and D'Anna on the Base Ship?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MacThor said:


> But how would Tigh (or any of the sleeper cylons) know about the inability for Cylon-Cylon babies? Was that knowledge ever made public to the fleet?
> 
> Wasn't this Six model the one having threesomes with Baltar and D'Anna on the Base Ship?


Athena told the chain of command...Tigh knows...Kara also knew from the days she spent in the cylon hospital...it should not be a secret to all the command staff on Galactica.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Athena told the chain of command...Tigh knows...Kara also knew from the days she spent in the cylon hospital...it should not be a secret to all the command staff on Galactica.


OK, thanks. I did not recall that conversation. I suppose that Carl Agathon could also have reported it up the chain.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MacThor said:


> OK, thanks. I did not recall that conversation. I suppose that Carl Agathon could also have reported it up the chain.


I don't recall the conversation, either...they may even have not shown it at all...but clearly an extensive briefing would have taken place of Athena, Kara, Helo, and Anders (not to mention Six and Gina but those are less reliable)...

also the huge fight over the Athena/Helo child was precisely because it was the first successful hybrid...


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

OK, I'm coming to this late, but here's some theories:

The fifth missing cylon might be hiding among the cylons. My guess is its Sharon Agathon. She is much different than the other cylons, with free will, etc. She could have been planted to spy on the cylons themselves.

Here's another theory: at the time of the revolt, I'm guessing the most advanced cylons were the raiders. The raiders definitely aren't smart enough to create a race of clones. Therefore, there might be a third race behind the skin jobs, Kara's new viper, and the clues to earth. The third race could be "the gods" themselves. That would give a good story arc to the last season.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I rewatched this today. I watched it first time after a transatlantic flight and to be quite honest I had almost no memory of it 

I have no theories. I just watch for fun and I thought it was a great episode.


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