# Judder on British shows



## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

I had the Premiere previously and never saw this using the same TV (Vizio m-series). We stated watching Midsomer Murders on Netflix through the bolt and noticed choppiness during panning and action scenes. It doesn't happen when watching American shows. Workaround is to watch Midsomer Murders on the Netflix built into the TV. But now, I see it watching season two of Humans on AMC. No workaround possible here unless I go watch it on my old premiere upstairs. I have tried turning Reduce Judder on and off on the TV and turned on all resolutions on the tivo. It makes little difference. Any ideas?


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

Another data point. Streaming Humans from the Bolt to a Premiere upstairs connected to a slightly older Vizio TV upstairs has no panning problems. Last thing to check would be to move the Premiere back downstairs, although that is where it was before I bought the Bolt last December and never had these panning / judder issues. I have a strong feeling it's the Bolt...


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Do you have 24Hz output enabled on the Bolt (1080p24 passthrough and/or 2160p24 passthrough)? I do, and the 25p encoded British TV content comes out as a 24Hz signal w/o perceptible judder.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Next time, note the episode and at which minute and what the TiVo info button says. That way we can look for it too.

I often have judder during pans using 3.5 Mbps internet, it is something I accept for the price I pay ($15/mth TWC). But there has been a lot less judder recently as I think more shows try to avoid pans as they know of the problem. And Netflix has gotten significantly better when they code/compress new content.


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Do you have 24Hz output enabled on the Bolt (1080p24 passthrough and/or 2160p24 passthrough)? I do, and the 25p encoded British TV content comes out as a 24Hz signal w/o perceptible judder.


I do have 1080p24 enabled, but the TV always reports the program is 1080p60 in system information.


jth tv said:


> Next time, note the episode and at which minute and what the TiVo info button says. That way we can look for it too.


1. AMC Humans 6 minutes in. 1080i TV reports 1080p60.
2. Netflix Midsomer Murders season 7 episode 1 1:02 TV reports 1080p60.

I was able to remove the judder on both of these shows by enabling only 480p and 1080p24 on the TiVo. The TV reports the shows are playing at 480p and panning is smooth. It's hardly a solution though. The menus look terrible.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

jg123 said:


> 2. Netflix Midsomer Murders season 7 episode 1 1:02 TV reports 1080p60.[/QUOTE
> 
> The Green Man, November 2, 2003
> 
> ...


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

jth tv said:


> The Green Man, November 2, 2003
> 
> I have my Roamio set to all available resolutions (480i ->1080p). The Tivo Info button indicates that Netflix is sending a "480" picture, my TV says it is receiving a "1080p" (it always says that for Tivo's Netflix).
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking a look. I guess I should have specified the time format. At 1 minute and 2 seconds, a man walks across the room. He teleports across the room on my TV in small increments. What do you see?


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

What is the title of the episode ? I think we have our wires crossed.


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

jth tv said:


> What is the title of the episode ? I think we have our wires crossed.


It's just my wires... The Green Man. Same episode. They are in the police office.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Wires still crossed. At 1 minute, 2 seconds, Here they are outdoors, wife and daughter are talking while getting a cup of tea ?, coffee ? off the back of a pickup truck I guess. Police office is at 2:27, Troy walks to inbox looking for news. Picture is Not steady, probably filmed using steadycam, I would not call it judder. 

Later episodes I get "720" per the Tivo Info button, these early ones though, are "480". What does your TiVo info button say ? Perhaps it is some conversion thing.

I am about 10 miles from downtown Los Angeles, where I expect the servers by Netflix are used. If the timing of the episode is off and the picture is juddering, perhaps Netflix is using a poor copy where you are.

Or something.


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

That's what I get for trying to recall the scene from memory. It is the scene with the mother and daughter and the man walking by is from 1 minute to 1 minute 2 seconds. Using the bolt remote, the info button does nothing in the Netflix app. Different software version than the Roamio?


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Yeah, Netflix has been systematically removing that debugging overlay display that you could bring up with the INFO button from the UI on every platform. I'm surprised that you still have it on your Roamio.

Exactly what model Vizio TV are we talking about? I have a 2014 P-series (P602ui-B3) and when I enable the 24Hz output modes on my TiVo Bolt I get 24Hz output of all 24p encoded content (and 25p encoded British TV) from all of the streaming services that I use: Netflix, Amazon, VUDU, Hulu, HBO Go and Plex. This makes it my favorite platform for streaming those.

I only enabled 2160p60 and 2160p24 passthrough, because Netflix behaves aberrantly if I enable anything more.


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

The Vizio that demonstrates the judder is an m552i-b2. In the TV menus when I select system information, I always see 60hz.

An update here on my situation. I got a TiVo mini to replace a premiere. Í put the mini in place of the bolt and hooked it up to the m series Vizio. No judder! I moved the bolt upstairs and hooked it up to a Vizio e480i-b2. Guess what? No judder there either!

It must be some issue with the bolt and the m series Vizio. Maybe a reset of the m series TV would fix it. I don't know. Everything is working fine now, so in a sense, case closed.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Strange--that model has a 120Hz native refresh rate and should be able to accept a 24Hz signal and display it by straight 5:5 pulldown avoiding judder added by 2:3 pulldown. My 2014 P60 shows that it's receiving a 24Hz signal from TiVo when I play content with streaming apps in its system status display. I wonder why that doesn't work with your M55?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It depends on how the show is shot and what material Netflix has access to. Most dramas are shot in 24fps "film mode" regardless of where they're ultimately aired, so in that case, if they have access to the original work, they can just put it on Netflix as 24fps and your TV should sort it out. However if the show was filmed specifically for British TV, or they only have access to the British broadcast version, then the video will be 25fps. Since TiVo doesn't have a 25fps passthrough mode, and most TVs couldn't handle it anyway, that means it's internal converter has to do the conversion to US 29.97fps. That's actually harder then it sounds. Most devices simply use a crude drop/duplicate frame mode to fill in the gaps as there is no consistent pattern for converting from PAL to NTSC. In professional broadcasting they use a much more complex technique where they actually convert the video to 24fps by simply slowing it down a little. This increasing the run time (for example this increases the run time of an hour long show by 2.5 minutes) and also causes a reverse chipmunk effect on the audio, so they have to do pitch adjustment to make it sound right. From that point they apply the standard telecine 3:2 pattern to convert to 29.97. However I'm not aware of any system that does that in real time so in all likelihood TiVo is using the crude method mentioned above, or Netflix/AMC is and TiVo is just playing the NTSC version as presented by the source.


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## jg123 (Mar 14, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> My 2014 P60 shows that it's receiving a 24Hz signal from TiVo when I play content with streaming apps in its system status display.


Does the system status display 24Hz when you are watching Midsomer Murders? If not, what content do you know of on Netflix or Amazon Prime has content I can test with? Dan, do you have examples?

Edit: Looks like most shows are 24Hz in the US. I'll have to see if I can get the tv to receive a 24Hz program.


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## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

Unfortunately I am not in a position to test it. I moved recently and still don't have my stuff set up yet. However, in the past I've noticed that British television comes out as 24Hz.

Almost everything in Netflix is encoded at 24p, save for some old US TV (30p encodes) and all British TV that I've run across (25p). This runs true for Amazon and VUDU, etc. Most commercial video is shot at 24p and it's the frame rate they get from their content providers.


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