# 480i no longer displays in native resolution after 14.9.2



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

This issue was raised in one of the other 14.9.2 threads, but got quickly buried. 

It seems as if the 14.9.2 release has broken the native resolution display capabilities of at least a couple Premieres. I normally display in whatever resolution the show was recorded, and this has worked for some time (outputting over HDMI).

After the new release, regular SD shows now default to 720p instead of 480i. To view in the native resolution you now have to use the "up" button a couple times to manually switch output to 480i. Sadly, this sticks when you go back to the HD menus. 

Others with this problem???


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

What about 480P? Even when I was running native resolution output for HD, I never used the 480i output of the since the picture quality took a big hit.

Since getting my Elite I've set all my boxes for 1080i and 1080P24 output only. Since most networks are 1080i and there were four tuners to cycle through on the Elite, waiting one second or less for channel changes became preferable to 2 to 3 second channel changes for me.
And once I got used to that on the Elite, I had to switch all my other Premieres as well


----------



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> What about 480P? Even when I was running native resolution output for HD, I never used the 480i output of the since the picture quality took a big hit.
> 
> Since getting my Elite I've set all my boxes for 1080i and 1080P24 output only. Since most networks are 1080i and there were four tuners to cycle through on the Elite, waiting one second or less for channel changes became preferable to 2 to 3 second channel changes for me.
> And once I got used to that on the Elite, I had to switch all my other Premieres as well


I have tried disabling 480i as well. In prior system versions, this would display 480i native shows in 480p, but with 14.9.2 it displays in 720p.

Like many people with high-end video processors, I prefer to feed the original resolution into my AV Processor and let it to the conversion to 1080p.


----------



## pig_man (Jun 4, 2009)

I have the problem too, and I've done some research on the behavior:

If 720p output is selected, then both 480i and 480p will default to 720p even if 480i and 480p are selected.

If 1080i output is selected and 720p is not, then both 480i and 480p will default to 1080i even if 480i and 480p are selected.

If 480i and 480p only are selected, then 480i will default to 480p, while 480p will play correctly.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I just checked all the output options on my XL box. It is doing the same thing. Outputting the 480 channels as 720P.
I also see it is doing the same thing from Netflix and Amazon.


----------



## Tyler Pruitt (Nov 28, 2011)

This is a Big Deal for people that use external video processors like the Lumagen ect.


----------



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

I tried with component output (instead of HDMI), and the problem persists. This is truly a retrograde upgrade.


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

I am now seeing this behavior .. I think I went to 14.9.2.2 a couple of days ago.

This is *really* annoying to me. You can use the up-arrow to cycle through the resolutions and get to 480i .. and as long as you stay on 480i channels, it will stay there, but once you go to 720 or 1080 .. it doesn't drop back down.

I was actually looking at pulling the trigger on buying another box ... but I'm not going to be pleased if this (old) behavior sticks around.


----------



## photoman (Dec 18, 2011)

I have also discovered this bug since my TiVo Premiere XL was updated directly from 14.8 to 14.9.2.2-01-2-748. If you have not done so, please call TiVo Support and complain about this problem. I have asked TiVo that this issue be escalated to L3. Although you can manually reset the resolution to 480i, if the program you are watching has HD commercials, you will be forced to constantly reset the resolution back to 480i after each commercial....extremely aggravating.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

I'm now seeing this problem too. Relieved it's not just me, but still annoyed at TiVo. I'll try to call it in tomorrow.


----------



## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

TeddS said:


> I'm now seeing this problem too. Relieved it's not just me, but still annoyed at TiVo. I'll try to call it in tomorrow.


If you have all of the video output options enabled and you hit the up arrow when watching Live or Recorded TV, the TiVo toggles between the available output settings. I played with this briefly but I was able to get back into the native resolution on an SD channel with this method. Its a little unclear to me at this point what the default setting is on a channel.


----------



## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

sbiller said:


> If you have all of the video output options enabled and you hit the up arrow when watching Live or Recorded TV, the TiVo toggles between the available output settings. I played with this briefly but I was able to get back into the native resolution on an SD channel with this method. Its a little unclear to me at this point what the default setting is on a channel.


Yep - I figured that out too, but that "fix" is annoying and not very kid or wife-friendly. For me, every channel change is flipping the Tivo back to the highest HD setting, even if I switch between two SD channels. I'm using a big HD-capable Sony 4:3 TV, so I like the Tivo to stick to SD (4:3) most of the time, and only switch to HD on HD channels. When it does that, it flips on the TV's HD compression mode, which makes a very nice letterboxed picture - but now with this problem, it's turning on the HD mode all all the time, incorrectly compressing SD signals, distorting the picture.

Now it's just a huge pain. So I turned off the HD options in Tivo until they fix this or I can figure out some other good workaround.


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

This is also a big deal because the tivo does a horrible job of upscaling 480i to 1080i, while my TV (with a Faroudja processor) does a far better job.

Upscaling to 1080i in the tivo makes contrast and saturation so far off that it is unwatchable.


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

Tyler Pruitt said:


> This is a Big Deal for people that use external video processors like the Lumagen ect.


A real PITA.
My DVDO iScan Duo VP input banner now reports 720p for all 480i channels, all Encore channels on cable for example.
My Premiere has always been set to pass all incoming resolutions unaltered so the Duo will do all the processing.

While the Duo has a unique feature where it will re-interlace 480p and 1080p, process the signal and de-interlace to 1080p for my display, this does not work for 720p.
Disabling 720p in the Tivo is no solution since there are numerous channels on OTA and cable that transmit at 720p and the Duo needs to see those as is.

Using the up arrow on the remote works but has to be repeated after every channel change.
This need to be fixed, I am really ticked off now.


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

Having to change the resolution and scaling every time you change channels is like 1990 all over again. A MAJOR PITA!


----------



## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

EldRick said:


> Having to change the resolution and scaling every time you change channels is like 1990 all over again. A MAJOR PITA!


agree 100%! Anyone know if TiVo has given any indication that they're even working on a fix??


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

I can tell you one thing- if the new update does not include it, I'm sending this POS back and going back to DTV.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'd send the cable company back, not the TiVo. Seriously, do you really have that much 480i content? We have 7 channels that aren't in HD yet, and I watch one of them about once a month.


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

About half of the HD channels on Comcast are 480i, as are quite a few movies from Amazon. 

I finally worked with tech support, where they were astonished to discover this problem.

They were able to offer a reasonable workaround: set the Video resolutions to accept only 480p and 1080i, and then 480i will be seen in 480p (with aspect ratio choices of Full, Zoom, sidebars), 720p will be upscaled to 1080i by the tivo (no zoom/full/pillar choices), and 1080 will show in 1080 (no Zoom/Full/pillar choices).

It does not allow you to have the external device (like the Faroudja processor in my Westy TV) do the upscaling instead of the tivo, but at least it eliminates the fiddling every time you change channels.

The issue has now been reported, confirmed, and escalated to engineering. According to tech support, this had never actually been formally reported as an issue. 

Sigh - things don't get fixed unless you report them, guys...


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

EldRick said:


> I finally worked with tech support, where they were astonished to discover this problem.
> 
> The issue has now been reported, confirmed, and escalated to engineering. According to tech support, this had never actually been formally reported as an issue.
> 
> Sigh - things don't get fixed unless you report them, guys...


See, that is part of the problem .. I did report it ... via e-mail to Customer Service.. a reply I got on 12/19 included ....



> Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I would be glad to help you with your aspect ratio issues. We are aware of this problem that arose during the latest software update and are working diligently to fix it. Your box has been added to the list of TiVo boxes displaying this problem, which will help us more quickly resolve the issue.


Things get reported and then ignored .. that's a problem..


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

> Things get reported and then ignored...


That's been true for the ten years I've had tivos.


----------



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

The new software update generally fixes this bug. I say "generally" because there seem to be some menus where it doesn't reset the 480i/480p signals. But most of the time, native resolution seems to work with the new system update.


----------



## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

diamar said:


> The new software update generally fixes this bug. I say "generally" because there seem to be some menus where it doesn't reset the 480i/480p signals. But most of the time, native resolution seems to work with the new system update.


Diamar, what is the release # of the new system update? We have #14.9.2.2-01-2-746 and the problem happens constantly. Even in the middle of watching recorded shows.


----------



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

dbranco said:


> Diamar, what is the release # of the new system update? We have #14.9.2.2-01-2-746 and the problem happens constantly. Even in the middle of watching recorded shows.


The new release is 20.2 and has the new HD guide and info screens. I understand it rolled out to a large random sample and suspect it will take a couple more weeks before everyone gets it.

It definitely is still a bit flaky. But it always seems to fix itself in this version if you go to the TiVo menu and exit back to the 480i channel (when watching live TV). Haven't played with recordings much, but as far as I can tell, they always go to native as they should.


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

I'm less concerned about the menus adjusting as it properly adjusting to the channels like it is supposed to. Hopefully at least that part is fixed.

(i.e. if I'm using Native and I hit a 480i channel, it should change to 480i .. when I go to a 1080i it should change to 1080i and so forth ...)


----------



## DCleary (Dec 20, 2008)

Does anyone know how Hulu or Netflix are being output?


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

I was able to find the email address of the Tivo VP of Customer Experience on twitter ([email protected]), and had an email exchange regarding the missing Native support. She was unaware of the issue (I cited this thread and another where it was reported), and she promised to forward the issue to engineering.

Note that when a VP brings such an issue to the attention of engineering, it is far more likely to get fixed than if you or I report it. I learned this many years ago while at a large computer company... 

So I have some hope that they will address this remarkably bone-headed oversight in the not-too-distant future.

BTW, there is a lame workaround suggested by Tech Support: set your supported resolutions to 480 and 1080, and not 720p. Part of the issue is that the tivo 14.9 update stupidly upscales 480i content to 720p without mentioning it, and this means that changing channels worsens the issue of aspect ratio changes..


----------



## diamar (Oct 1, 2002)

EldRick said:


> I was able to find the email address of the Tivo VP of Customer Experience on twitter ([email protected]), and had an email exchange regarding the missing Native support. She was unaware of the issue (I cited this thread and another where it was reported), and she promised to forward the issue to engineering.
> 
> Note that when a VP brings such an issue to the attention of engineering, it is far more likely to get fixed than if you or I report it. I learned this many years ago at a large computer company...
> 
> ...


I find that it does change to the rigth resolution most of the time when you switch channels. Not sure when it fails, but it does occasionally fail still. I do think it's better that it's easier to "fix" it by hitting TiVo/LiveTV instead of cycling through the resolutions. Once it figures out that a channel is 480i, it seems to be fine with it. Not a huge amount of testing from me yet, but it worked well most of the time.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi all,

Thanks for making me aware of this issue. Engineering is currently looking into it.

--Margret


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

TiVoMargret said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for making me aware of this issue. Engineering is currently looking into it.
> 
> --Margret


I do hope you can keep us up to date on it. After installing 20.2 yesterday, I can confirm it is still *really* bad. It does not detect a 480i channel and automatically change the resolution to it.. and often going back into the menus from a 480i mode will at times result in a digitally garbled screen (fixed by going back into live and then to the menu).

Other than being really annoying since 14.9.2.2 .. this is the type of bug that has put my plans of purchasing another box on hold .. so I'd like to get it resolved.

Other than that... the new UI is .. ummm interesting  It will take some getting used to.

Thank you for continuing to provide feedback to the forums.


----------



## EldRick (Jan 3, 2012)

Margret, you are indeed a prize! 

Based on interaction with you, I'm no longer considering ditching Tivo/Comcast for DTV, and have an antenna guy coming tomorrow to install an outside HD antenna (because Comcast delivers only 480i for local HD channels).


----------



## MirclMax (Jul 12, 2000)

More of a problem... attempting to watch a 480i video through netflix .. came out completely stretched .. and one can not adjust the TiVo's "aspect" while in the Netflix interface. Lovely.


----------



## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

You can select the aspect ratio in live TV before starting Netflix, and that setting will stay while using Netflix. I had to use the "full" setting to watch anamorphic content on one show.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TiVoMargret said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for making me aware of this issue. Engineering is currently looking into it.
> 
> --Margret


I don't have a Tivo Premiere, but I wish there were an official way to report bugs to Tivo. There are TONS of bugs I could describe in a detailed way. (e.g. after transferring a show from one TiVo to another, it often shows up as the wrong length, even though it's fully there. If you save to VCR it, it is basically always "8 minutes long", even though it's fully there... this is briefer than I'd describe it in a real bug report).


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

TiVoMargret said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for making me aware of this issue. Engineering is currently looking into it.
> 
> --Margret


You probably shouldn't be looking into this if it is in the HDUI. In the HDUI your menus and in version 20.2 the guide and overlays (info boxes etc.) are rendered in 720p. If you don't at least upscale to 720p you will no longer be able to have the HD interface elements. Either that or everytime your click something there will be switching effect. For exmaple switching channels will go to 720p so the info banner can be seen and then to 480i when it clears. That would be completely aggravating. If it is on the SDUI side, then yes you should probably fix it.


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> You probably shouldn't be looking into this if it is in the HDUI. In the HDUI your menus and in version 20.2 the guide and overlays (info boxes etc.) are rendered in 720p. If you don't at least upscale to 720p you will no longer be able to have the HD interface elements. Either that or everytime your click something there will be switching effect. For example switching channels will go to 720p so the info banner can be seen and then to 480i when it clears. That would be completely aggravating. If it is on the SDUI side, then yes you should probably fix it.


Your explanation might be valid for 20.2 but does not explain why the problem first appeared in the previous build (14.9) while the build before that did not suffer this 480i to 720p switch.
AFAIK there were no HD GUI changes in 14.9 to cause this problem.

My Premiere is a year old and initially the native resolution pass thru would not stick at all. This was corrected in a later build after about 6 months, That thread is here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7949198#post7949198

Now, starting with 14.9 we have this new problem which persists with 20.2 frustrating those of us with external VP's.


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

HD4me2 said:


> Your explanation might be valid for 20.2 but does not explain why the problem first appeared in the previous build (14.9) while the build before that did not suffer this 480i to 720p switch.
> AFAIK there were no HD GUI changes in 14.9 to cause this problem.
> 
> My Premiere is a year old and initially the native resolution pass thru would not stick at all. This was corrected in a later build after about 6 months, That thread is here:
> ...


Your Tivo will get 20.2, so it is just as valid for anyone with 14.9. The change may have been made in anticipation of the 20.2 release (as in it was preparing for it) or just by accident. Do you have any ideas how you might be able to handle the HD info/guide without the resolution being HD? I agree it is a thing that frustrates you with external VPs, but I don't see much choice here other than forcing 720p. Also, the vast majority of users probably don't have an external VP, so the slickness of a nice interface for all probably trumps it in Tivo's eyes.


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

I posted after receiving 20.2
Don't confine your observations to VP owners.
This does not only affect owners of external VP's
Look at this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8886924#post8886924

Most TV's manufactured in the last few years have scalers that are superior to the Tivo. There are many more owners of such modern displays that now have to suffer this problem, even those without external VP's.

Do you want all those owners to suffer as well ?


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

HD4me2 said:


> I posted after receiving 20.2
> Don't confine your observations to VP owners.
> This does not only affect owners of external VP's
> Look at this post:
> ...


Do you want an HD interface? All I have heard for the past year from the site is complaints how not everything is in HD. Now it is getting there and you are asking for SD? If you have a solution how to get an HD interface without the resolution being HD, I'm sure Tivo would like to hear it (so would the Easter Bunny for that matter).


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> Do you want an HD interface? All I have heard for the past year from the site is complaints how not everything is in HD. Now it is getting there and you are asking for SD? If you have a solution how to get an HD interface without the resolution being HD, I'm sure Tivo would like to hear it (so would the Easter Bunny for that matter).


To conclude this discussion let us agree that it all depends on the owner/user objective.
My chief objective with the Tivo is to achieve the best display image quality from OTA, Cable whether live or recorded
In my HT this requires native resolution pass through. All else is secondary including partial of full HD GUI.

Now please explain why 4.9 introduced the 480i to 720p upscaling error whereas the previous build did not.
AFAIK 4.9 did not change the HD GUI which makes it a correctable programming error in 4.9 if not in 20.2.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

HD4me2, if you switch to SDUI then won't it solve the problem? If native resolution is the most important thing then using HDUI is secondary importance.


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

moyekj said:


> HD4me2, if you switch to SDUI then won't it solve the problem? If native resolution is the most important thing then using HDUI is secondary importance.


I could but since the problem did not exist prior to 4.9 I expect Tivo to fix it.

Meanwhile will use the up-arrow to force 480i.


----------



## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

HD4me2 said:


> I could but since the problem did not exist prior to 4.9 I expect Tivo to fix it.
> 
> Meanwhile will use the up-arrow to force 480i.


You will get 20.2 soon which in the HDUI the info/guide is HD... so it is NOT possible to use 480i. They may have made these changes in preparation for 20.2. 14.9 is dead code... Now if it has this behavior in the SDUI, then you have something to complain about.


----------



## HD4me2 (Sep 23, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> You will get 20.2 soon which in the HDUI the info/guide is HD... so it is NOT possible to use 480i. They may have made these changes in preparation for 20.2. 14.9 is dead code... Now if it has this behavior in the SDUI, then you have something to complain about.


Received 20.2 on Wednesday after requesting expedited roll out on Monday.
See here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21476043&postcount=1279

Will check SDUI and see.

SDUI does avoid the problem.

But, and this is weird.
While watching a 480i Encore Western with the Tivo set to 480i I brought up the Guide which filled the entire display with the Guide in HDUI.
The Duo Info screen showed the input at 480i despite the HDUI Guide.
After dismissing the Guide, the Tivo stayed at 480i.

Does this not mean that the HDUI does not reset the Tivo to 720p under these conditions ?

The answer is simple.
When the Tivo sends 480i to the Duo VP, the Duo converts to 1080/60p for the display.
So the Guide appears in full HDUI on the display even though the Tivo is sending 480i to the Duo. Comparing this with the Guide produced by the Tivo at 720p the result appears identical.

This would also apply to anyone with a recent 1080p capable TV with a decent internal video processor.


----------



## jicama (Nov 11, 2011)

EldRick said:


> BTW, there is a lame workaround suggested by Tech Support: set your supported resolutions to 480 and 1080, and not 720p.


This doesn't work for me. I have my supported resolutions set to 480p and 1080i, and the TiVo still shows 480i and 480p content in 1080i.

I'm using the SDUI.


----------



## chazas (Jan 18, 2007)

Running 20.2 now, and I am finally using the HD menus. This 480i bug is really annoying, though - my TV upscales 480i much better than the TiVo does. Hitting the up button once does bring up the current resolution and a second time changes to 480i - and this seems to stick for a while - but not forever. Eventually the output again defaults to 720p and looks like hell again.

I hope they fix this. For whatever reason, the HD guide looks fine when the TiVo is outputting 480i.


----------



## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

we got the new software and the Tivo no longer switches indiscriminately between 480i and HD.


----------

