# Comcast Cable Cards No Long Compatible with VOD on Fiber Networks



## mjl13 (Nov 27, 2007)

So, I just had an excruciating experience with my Tivo Romio and Comcast / Xfinity Support. It all started when I couldn't access seem to play any videos from the Xfinity video on demand (VOD) app on Tivo (I get an error CL-14 or GSM-11 repeatedly). I called Xfinity support and was connected to a cable card "expert." We spent literally 2.5 hours walking through all the steps to regain connectivity, including repeating the guided setup, logging into tivo and making some modifications and re-downloading the Tivo data. All of this was to no avail. I even went to the Comcast store at the suggestion of the cable card expert to pick up a new cablecard. The following day, the cable card technical called me back and explained to me she had just left a meeting where they were told that the Tivo Cable Cards would no longer support VOD on fiber networks and that my "area" had just been upgraded to fiber. She said all areas will sooner or later be upgraded to fiber. As a result, she explained to me that my cable card, along with all the cablecards of other Tivo users in the area are now "obsolete" (her words). When I asked how to obtain a new cablecard that was VOD compatible, she said, there is no such thing. They will not support VOD on Tivos any more on the fiber network. 

This has me absolutely livid. First of all, they wasted my time trying to troubleshoot something that is incompatible and their supposed cablecard experts had no idea (apparently management didn't communicate this down to the rank and file). Second, I'm quite miffed because I specifically purchased the Tivo because I'd be able to eliminate the need for a clunky box through their cablecards. 

If you are a comcast user, be prepared: You will loose your VOD access through your Tivo cablecard. I hope that if enough of us complain, they'll think twice about this and hopefully reverse their decision to not support VOD on the Tivo Cablecards. Please contact Tivo and Comcast and let them know how unhappy you are about this.

Thanks.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Sadly I think this is a losing battle.


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## mjl13 (Nov 27, 2007)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Sadly I think this is a losing battle.


I agree, sadly. I guess it's time to hang up my tivo after being an owner since series 1. :-(


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

mjl13 said:


> I agree, sadly. I guess it's time to hang up my tivo after being an owner since series 1. :-(


Well can you get around it by scheduling recordings vs. using on demand?


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## gigaquad (Oct 25, 2004)

I just told another user this, but things like this and frequent price-hikes is what caused me to go OTA for local stuff (and MeTV, who knew there was such a thing?), and Amazon FireTV stick (25.00) with Kodi for all the pay shows. 

It's like the cable companies are just daring us to give them up. "You can't live without Comcast! You'll be so sad all the time!" No, instead I get all the shows I want and more, and I don't pay you $200 a month to tick me off every billing cycle.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Well can you get around it by scheduling recordings vs. using on demand?


Unfortunately, Comcast relies on On Demand for some channels like HBO. They have dropped the multiple HBO HD channels for one or two in many markets.


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## mjl13 (Nov 27, 2007)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Well can you get around it by scheduling recordings vs. using on demand?


Normally I can schedule, but I often use VOD when I hear of a new show that I wanted to go back and want, after-the-fact. So unfortunately, this won't work. But thanks for the suggestion.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Unfortunately, Comcast relies on On Demand for some channels like HBO. They have dropped the multiple HBO HD channels for one or two in many markets.


Hmm. My suggestion would be to tell Comcast to take a hike and subscribe to HBO via streaming. If you have Amazon Prime Video or Hulu, add HBO to one of those and get multiple live HBO channels in HD, plus everything on demand. Otherwise, just subscribe via the HBO Now app (which unfortunately doesn't offer the live channels).

Same holds true for Showtime, except that their own Showtime app does offer the live channel.

Honestly, it's like Comcast just invites customers to walk away from them with their difficult policies.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mjl13 said:


> The following day, the cable card technical called me back and explained to me she had just left a meeting where they were told that the Tivo Cable Cards would no longer support VOD on fiber networks and that my "area" had just been upgraded to fiber. She said all areas will sooner or later be upgraded to fiber.


I'm not quibbling with what you're reporting here but I do wonder what she meant in reference to upgrading areas to fiber. Comcast's entire network all across the country has consisted of a lot of fiber for years now. It's actually known as HFC, or hybrid fiber/coaxial, meaning that the inner core of the network is composed of fiber while the outer edges of the network that connect directly to homes is composed of coaxial cable. As time has gone on, Comcast (and other cable companies) has expanded the reach of fiber in their networks and shortened the distances that the old traditional coaxial cables run. This provides more bandwidth in their network and generally makes everything faster and more reliable.

I'm not aware of Comcast converting any of their areas completely over to fiber (i.e. FTTH -- fiber to the home). And I've never read about any plans on Comcast's part to do that any time in the coming years (unlike Altice/Optimum, which has already begun converting their HFC network over to FTTH in some areas).

So I do wonder what it is that Comcast is actually doing in their network in your area that would make VOD incompatible with TiVo. Perhaps they are simply moving all VOD off of QAM and exclusively to IPTV (i.e. streaming), which would make it unavailable to TiVos unless they were to create a new IPTV-based VOD app for TiVo, the way that Cox cable did. But if that's what they actually did, then it would also mean that Comcast VOD would be unavailable to those older pre-X1 STBs that some Comcast customers are still using, since those STBs (like TiVos) are QAM-only and cannot access IPTV.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> I'm not quibbling with what you're reporting here but I do wonder what she meant in reference to upgrading areas to fiber. Comcast's entire network all across the country has consisted of a lot of fiber for years now. It's actually known as HFC, or hybrid fiber/coaxial, meaning that the inner core of the network is composed of fiber while the outer edges of the network that connect directly to homes is composed of coaxial cable. As time has gone on, Comcast (and other cable companies) has expanded the reach of fiber in their networks and shortened the distances that the old traditional coaxial cables run. This provides more bandwidth in their network and generally makes everything faster and more reliable.
> 
> I'm not aware of Comcast converting any of their areas completely over to fiber (i.e. FTTH -- fiber to the home). And I've never read about any plans on Comcast's part to do that any time in the coming years (unlike Altice/Optimum, which has already begun converting their HFC network over to FTTH in some areas).
> 
> So I do wonder what it is that Comcast is actually doing in their network in your area that would make VOD incompatible with TiVo. Perhaps they are simply moving all VOD off of QAM and exclusively to IPTV (i.e. streaming), which would make it unavailable to TiVos unless they were to create a new IPTV-based VOD app for TiVo, the way that Cox cable did. But if that's what they actually did, then it would also mean that Comcast VOD would be unavailable to those older pre-X1 STBs that some Comcast customers are still using, since those STBs (like TiVos) are QAM-only and cannot access IPTV.


Hmm, I wonder if this is BS and worth it for the poster to escalate with TiVo?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Unfortunately, Comcast relies on On Demand for some channels like HBO. They have dropped the multiple HBO HD channels for one or two in many markets.


I believe that all HBO series air at some point on the single HD channel. You would still be able to record them at _some _point.

In Houston, Comcast only has a couple HD HBO channels, versus DirecTV and their 6 or 7. But everything I watch starts out on the main HBOeHD feed, so it's recordable.



NashGuy said:


> I'm not aware of Comcast converting any of their areas completely over to fiber (i.e. FTTH -- fiber to the home). And I've never read about any plans on Comcast's part to do that any time in the coming years (unlike Altice/Optimum, which has already begun converting their HFC network over to FTTH in some areas).


I'm moving into a condo that has Comcast fiber from start to finish. The AV guy I'm using was amazed, said it was the first time he's seen Comcast fiber optics in a residential setting (albeit multi-family). I currently get Comcast VOD. I'll check when I move (Aug) and see what happens.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Hmm, I wonder if this is BS and worth it for the poster to escalate with TiVo?


If what this guy was told by Comcast is true (it could just be misinformation), it's a pretty big deal for TiVo. Comcast accounts for, what, about 40% of potential retail CableCARD TiVo users? So if support for the Xfinity OnDemand TiVo app is getting phased out this year, that hurts TiVo and lots of TiVo customers. I would think that TiVo would (or at least should) know about such a move on Comcast's part. If it were me, I'd follow up with TiVo support or maybe TivoTed on the forum here.

If what this guy was told is true, I would expect there to be other TiVo users on Comcast experiencing the same errors when trying to use OnDemand. We'll see if that happens.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> I'm moving into a condo that has Comcast fiber from start to finish. The AV guy I'm using was amazed, said it was the first time he's seen Comcast fiber optics in a residential setting (albeit multi-family). I currently get Comcast VOD. I'll check when I move (Aug) and see what happens.


Yes, there are limited instances, such as condos, apartments, and newly constructed neighborhoods, where Comcast is initially hooking up residences to their network and they choose to do FTTH rather than HFC. But those are exceptions. I'm not aware of any places where Comcast has gone and switched homes that were already on their HFC network over to FTTH.

I'm curious what sort of TV service that Comcast delivers to those few FTTH premises like the condo you're moving into soon. I suspect that it's 100% IPTV and will only be compatible with their X1 boxes and devices such as Roku which run the Xfinity Stream app. I'll be surprised if you can use your TiVo in your new condo.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> If what this guy was told by Comcast is true (it could just be misinformation), it's a pretty big deal for TiVo. Comcast accounts for, what, about 40% of potential retail CableCARD TiVo users? So if support for the Xfinity OnDemand TiVo app is getting phased out this year, that hurts TiVo and lots of TiVo customers. I would think that TiVo would (or at least should) know about such a move on Comcast's part. If it were me, I'd follow up with TiVo support or maybe TivoTed on the forum here.
> 
> If what this guy was told is true, I would expect there to be other TiVo users on Comcast experiencing the same errors when trying to use OnDemand. We'll see if that happens.


OnDemand services have been bugy for nearly two years on Cox Cable in most areas, and all they say on the phone is "yeah, we know there's a problem, but don't you worry, we're on top of it", which of course, is bollocks. Cox is likely do8ng the same thing, just not admitting it...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> I'm curious what sort of TV service that Comcast delivers to those few FTTH premises like the condo you're moving into soon. I suspect that it's 100% IPTV and will only be compatible with their X1 boxes and devices such as Roku which run the Xfinity Stream app. I'll be surprised if you can use your TiVo in your new condo.


I have no direct or specific knowledge about this circumstance, but I would be stunned if it's anything but plain old coax TV service. That would be a major shift in Comcast's delivery vehicle.

FWIW, in the pic attached to my post, it shows fiber>Commscope node. I looked up that node, it has RFoG (Radio Freq over Glass), plus an RF output signal via coax F-type. Again, I know nothing, but that sounds like it will send a std coax signal?


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

I would be thrilled if all I lost was VOD on Comcast. Our community is being switched over to Comcast FTTH and we have been told that our TiVo's won't work at all once the conversion is complete late this year.

A friend just went through this in his community and he lost his TiVo. Interestingly, according to his X1 diagnostic pages, his system is still using QAM. So, I am going to file an FCC complaint when the time comes and keep my fingers crossed.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Typical Comcast CS roulette BS. I don't believe that XOD went away, I believe there's an account issue for the OP. My guess is that it's the usual problem where the Tivo rate code is not on the account - this can happen anytime a plan is changed, upgraded, etc.

Post a message here and ask a Comcast rep to get back with you, these guys can fix XOD stuff:
Non-X1 Service - Xfinity Help and Support Forums

If they confirm that XOD is really gone in fiber converted areas, that is indeed going to be big news for Tivo users on Comcast.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Typical Comcast CS roulette BS. I don't believe that XOD went away, I believe there's an account issue for the OP. My guess is that it's the usual problem where the Tivo rate code is not on the account - this can happen anytime a plan is changed, upgraded, etc.
> 
> Post a message here and ask a Comcast rep to get back with you, these guys can fix XOD stuff:
> Non-X1 Service - Xfinity Help and Support Forums
> ...


I'm guessing the 'OP' is 'Mikey13' on the Xfinity support forum and he's been there since yesterday with 'no Xfinity' responses. He didn't explicitly ask that a Comcast rep contact him but he has I'd think been there!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> I have no direct or specific knowledge about this circumstance, but I would be stunned if it's anything but plain old coax TV service. That would be a major shift in Comcast's delivery vehicle.
> 
> FWIW, in the pic attached to my post, it shows fiber>Commscope node. I looked up that node, it has RFoG (Radio Freq over Glass), plus an RF output signal via coax F-type. Again, I know nothing, but that sounds like it will send a std coax signal?


Well, Comcast already runs their TV service as _both_ QAM and IPTV. For some time now, it appears that the situation with their own X1 boxes is that they receive linear channels as QAM but cloud DVR and VOD as IPTV. (However, one guy on this forum recently reported seeing a neighbor's new X1 box that he thinks may be 100% IPTV.) TiVos and old pre-X1 Comcast boxes get everything (including OnDemand) via QAM. And all devices using the Xfinity Stream app, including mobile devices as well as Rokus connected to TVs on the new "Xfinity Instant TV" service, get everything (including all linear channels) via IPTV.

For a few years now, Comcast has basically had their entire system, which was originally 100% QAM, duplicated in a Denver-based nationally-served IPTV system. So it theoretically shouldn't be a problem for Comcast to serve your new condo with 100% IPTV. That said, use of the RFoG node and F-type connector on that box that you photographed does indicate that they will still be transmitting at least some TV services via QAM. Per this article, it looks like the purpose of RFoG is to allow cable systems to integrate new FTTH locations into their mainly HFC network so that the FTTH locations can be served by all of their existing legacy systems, such as QAM TV.



DigitalDawn said:


> I would be thrilled if all I lost was VOD on Comcast. Our community is being switched over to Comcast FTTH and we have been told that our TiVo's won't work at all once the conversion is complete late this year.
> 
> A friend just went through this in his community and he lost his TiVo. Interestingly, according to his X1 diagnostic pages, his system is still using QAM. So, I am going to file an FCC complaint when the time comes and keep my fingers crossed.


So if Comcast is continuing to provision QAM TV to FTTH locations via RFoG, then why can't those homes use CableCARD?

My Googling led me to this thread about the incompatibility of CableCARD TiVos with Cox locations that are FTTH. Looks like they've done the same thing that Comcast is doing, which is to implement FTTH in select new build situations, with RFoG used as a way to integrate those FTTH locations into their legacy HFC systems. And posters on this thread were saying that in those Cox FTTH locations, they couldn't use TiVo, perhaps because of some kind of conditional access incompatibility between the CableCARD standard and the new headend technology used for those FTTH homes. But then by the end of the thread it appeared that Cox had remedied the problem so that those customers could use their TiVos?

Out of curiosity: what sort of community are you in that's getting switched over by Comcast to FTTH? Is it a condo or some other kind of neighborhood where Comcast is your only choice for broadband provider and the cost is bundled into your association fee?


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Let's face it, Comcast users were lucky we ever even got VoD on the TiVo at all. I'm honestly amazed it lasted this long.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

cable cards only handle the encryption of the signal not on demand


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ajwees41 said:


> cable cards only handle the encryption of the signal not on demand


CableCARD TiVos can be used to watch and record linear channels from lots of providers (Charter, Verizon FiOS, Altice, etc.) but, to my knowledge, the only two providers with which a TiVo can access OnDemand services are Comcast and Cox. Both of those companies made an app especially for TiVo to let it access their OnDemand content. But those apps work in different ways. The newer Cox VOD app is basically just IPTV -- streaming video -- and has nothing to do with CableCARD. But the older Xfinity OnDemand app for TiVo delivers the video stream via QAM, I believe, and so I think is still dependent on CableCARD. But their TiVo app provides a way for the TiVo to send an upstream request for a specific show to Comcast's servers, so that it can then be delivered via QAM.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

This seems to be in line with my experience last night and today with Comcast. I was checking my account and decided to see what packages were being offer. They were offer a package with twice the internet speed and two additional pay channels (Showtime and Movie Channel) for $10 less per month than I am currently paying. I tried to go through the process to change my package online and the web page would not allow me because I had two cable cards on my account. (Claim was they were "incompatible" with the package). I called in to the CSR today and he confirmed there is no issue and changed my package without a problem. (Granted, I haven't gone home from work, but I am assuming my TV is still working.)

I am not that worried about On-Demand as I typically use the channel Apps (with my Comcast login) to access any on-demand I want to watch. But, it sounds like Comcast is actively telling people that Cable Cards are no longer valid devices.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

TriBruin said:


> But, it sounds like Comcast is actively telling people that Cable Cards are no longer valid devices.


No, it sounds like the usual Comcast CS BS where they don't know jack about Tivos and cards. Nothing more.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

mjl13 said:


> Normally I can schedule, but I often use VOD when I hear of a new show that I wanted to go back and want, after-the-fact. So unfortunately, this won't work. But thanks for the suggestion.


xod is still available to stream through the app or browser (i'm now getting the error, too). thanks for doing the leg work and posting your results, you've saved me a ton of time and frustration, though i probably haven't used xod once in the past year.


NashGuy said:


> I'm not aware of Comcast converting any of their areas completely over to fiber (i.e. FTTH -- fiber to the home). And I've never read about any plans on Comcast's part to do that any time in the coming years (unlike Altice/Optimum, which has already begun converting their HFC network over to FTTH in some areas).


happened in our neighborhood in the past week.


TriBruin said:


> ...it sounds like Comcast is actively telling people that Cable Cards are no longer valid devices.


the "my account" page for tv has been telling me my "unknown set-top device" is outdated for years, nothing new.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> happened in our neighborhood in the past week.


Hmmm. Maybe it's a new strategic direction they're taking, although if so, it's not one I've seen reported in any of the industry news sources I regularly read. Given the advances on the horizon for HFC -- fully symmetrical DOCSIS 3.1, which can support multi-gig speeds in both directions -- I'm not sure I see why they're converting some neighborhoods over to FTTH. Pushing fiber deeper, to an N+0 architecture, I would understand, but not FTTH, unless they plan to convert the whole network, like Altice is doing. Anyhow, the fact that they are apparently converting at least some neighborhoods to FTTH is another sign, I'd say, that Comcast doesn't intend to use QAM TV for several more years.

So your home is converted now to FTTH? Can you still use your TiVo?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> So your home is converted now to FTTH? Can you still use your TiVo?


at least to the street, from there the endpoint is unknown, and tivo works fine. both google & at&t had already placed fiber at street level in our neighborhood within the past 6-8 months or so, construction has been underway all over town for months, and is still ongoing.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> But then by the end of the thread it appeared that Cox had remedied the problem so that those customers could use their TiVos?


I moved to a newly built neighborhood three years ago that was Cox's first FTTH (using RFoG) in my state.

It took a FCC complaint to really get them going (they were just going to leave it at "sorry, doesn't work"), but after a few days, they were able to get our cable card/tuning adapter working perfectly.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> at least to the street, from there the endpoint is unknown, and tivo works fine. both google & at&t had already placed fiber at street level in our neighborhood within the past 6-8 months or so, construction has been underway all over town for months, and is still ongoing.


It's cool you have multiple fiber sources on your street! I'm curious if any company that's already paid to run coax from the street to a house is going to pay to abandon that and run FTTH. I'm not sure what they'd get out of doing that.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

NorthAlabama said:


> at least to the street, from there the endpoint is unknown, and tivo works fine. both google & at&t had already placed fiber at street level in our neighborhood within the past 6-8 months or so, construction has been underway all over town for months, and is still ongoing.


That's your answer. Comcast only added fiber to your area because they had to compete. I can only get Comcast and they are in no hurry to upgrade.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> Well, Comcast already runs their TV service as _both_ QAM and IPTV. For some time now, it appears that the situation with their own X1 boxes is that they receive linear channels as QAM but cloud DVR and VOD as IPTV. (However, one guy on this forum recently reported seeing a neighbor's new X1 box that he thinks may be 100% IPTV.) TiVos and old pre-X1 Comcast boxes get everything (including OnDemand) via QAM. And all devices using the Xfinity Stream app, including mobile devices as well as Rokus connected to TVs on the new "Xfinity Instant TV" service, get everything (including all linear channels) via IPTV.
> 
> For a few years now, Comcast has basically had their entire system, which was originally 100% QAM, duplicated in a Denver-based nationally-served IPTV system. So it theoretically shouldn't be a problem for Comcast to serve your new condo with 100% IPTV. That said, use of the RFoG node and F-type connector on that box that you photographed does indicate that they will still be transmitting at least some TV services via QAM. Per this article, it looks like the purpose of RFoG is to allow cable systems to integrate new FTTH locations into their mainly HFC network so that the FTTH locations can be served by all of their existing legacy systems, such as QAM TV.
> 
> ...


Like my friend who lost his TiVo service, we are in a community of 654 single family homes. Unfortunately, Comcast is the lone provider. My friend might have done himself in by screwing around with Comcast support after his VOD no longer worked. Perhaps if he had left things alone he would still have TiVo service.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> at least to the street, from there the endpoint is unknown, and tivo works fine. both google & at&t had already placed fiber at street level in our neighborhood within the past 6-8 months or so, construction has been underway all over town for months, and is still ongoing.


Yeah, so Google Fiber is definitely FTTH. AT&T runs both FTTN (fiber-to-the-node) -- formerly branded as Uverse -- and FTTH. Google Fiber is slowly rolling out (with problems) in Nashville. On my street, AT&T is still FTTN (fiber to a box down the street and then over the old copper phone wires from there) but should be converted to FTTH this year.

It sounds like what you're seeing there with Comcast, though, isn't FTTH. At least not at your home. If it was, you'd have an ONT (optical network terminal) installed at your house, same as with Google Fiber and AT&T Fiber, and your TiVo probably wouldn't work any more (at least based on what Comcast has told DigitalDawn and Astrohip). Maybe what's happening in your neighbor is just that Comcast is pushing fiber deeper into the network, all the way to your local node (with the fiber happening to run along your exact street). Each node serves a cluster of homes in your neighborhood via coax (not fiber) connections to each home. That kind of "deeper fiber" deployment has been on Comcast's publicly stated roadmap for some time now. But as I said before, I'm not aware of any major plans that Comcast has stated to convert entire areas/regions of their network over from HFC to full-on FTTH.

Given that Comcast fiber does now run along your street, I'm sure that Comcast would convert your home from HFC to FTTH by running a direct fiber connection from the street to your home, and installing an ONT, if you upgraded to their 2 Gbps fiber service for the low, low monthly price of $299.95 (plus equipment fees and taxes), along with a $1000 installation/activation fee.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, so Google Fiber is definitely FTTH. AT&T runs both FTTN (fiber-to-the-node) -- formerly branded as Uverse -- and FTTH. Google Fiber is slowly rolling out (with problems) in Nashville. On my street, AT&T is still FTTN (fiber to a box down the street and then over the old copper phone wires from there) but should be converted to FTTH this year.
> 
> It sounds like what you're seeing there with Comcast, though, isn't FTTH. At least not at your home. If it was, you'd have an ONT (optical network terminal) installed at your house, same as with Google Fiber and AT&T Fiber, and your TiVo probably wouldn't work any more (at least based on what Comcast has told DigitalDawn and Astrohip). Maybe what's happening in your neighbor is just that Comcast is pushing fiber deeper into the network, all the way to your local node (with the fiber happening to run along your exact street). Each node serves a cluster of homes in your neighborhood via coax (not fiber) connections to each home. That kind of "deeper fiber" deployment has been on Comcast's publicly stated roadmap for some time now. But as I said before, I'm not aware of any major plans that Comcast has stated to convert entire areas/regions of their network over from HFC to full-on FTTH.
> 
> Given that Comcast fiber does now run along your street, I'm sure that Comcast would convert your home from HFC to FTTH by running a direct fiber connection from the street to your home, and installing an ONT, if you upgraded to their 2 Gbps fiber service for the low, low monthly price of $299.95 (plus equipment fees and taxes), along with a $1000 installation/activation fee.


it's not just my street, comcast is stringing fiber all over town, trucks all over, lines hanging everywhere, trenches being dug.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> it's not just my street, comcast is stringing fiber all over town, trucks all over, lines hanging everywhere, trenches being dug.


OK. Let us know if they start forcibly installing ONTs or some other new terminal interface in all those homes and retiring your current DOCSIS cable modems. I'm not saying they for sure aren't going to do that. (Apparently they're doing it in DigitalDawn's neighborhood.) But until they do, you're not really on "fiber-to-the-home" service, you're still on hybrid fiber/coax and your CableCARD TiVo should still work fine (not withstanding some possible issue with the VOD app that the OP reported, although we've really gotten sidetracked here and we don't know for sure if that's a real issue or just some misinformation he was given by Comcast reps).

If Comcast ends up switching all of Huntsville (if that's where you live) over from HFC to FTTH, that would be a big news-making deal.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

Comcast strung fiber in my neighborhood a couple months ago. So far, I still have XOD.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

snerd said:


> Comcast strung fiber in my neighborhood a couple months ago. So far, I still have XOD.


i may call cablecard support to see if it can be resolved, thanks for the info.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> It sounds like what you're seeing there with Comcast, though, isn't FTTH. At least not at your home. If it was, you'd have an ONT (optical network terminal) installed at your house, same as with Google Fiber and AT&T Fiber, and your TiVo probably wouldn't work any more (at least based on what Comcast has told DigitalDawn and Astrohip).


Just to clarify, Comcast hasn't told me anything, nor have I asked. I definitely have fiber (FTTH), but don't know yet if my TiVos will work or not.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> Just to clarify, Comcast hasn't told me anything, nor have I asked. I definitely have fiber (FTTH), but don't know yet if my TiVos will work or not.


Ah, apologies, it was just DigitalDawn who said that she was told that she could no longer use her TiVo once her home is converted by Comcast over to FTTH. If you think of it, come back here and post what your experience is once you move into your new condo with FTTH. Let us know if you can still use your TiVo, etc.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, apologies, it was just DigitalDawn who said that she was told that she could no longer use her TiVo once her home is converted by Comcast over to FTTH. If you think of it, come back here and post what your experience is once you move into your new condo with FTTH. Let us know if you can still use your TiVo, etc.


Believe me, I'll know right away. I'm one of those "pry my TiVo out of my cold dead hands" guy, so if it doesn't work, you'll hear me scream. Then figure out how I can get DirecTV in my unit.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> OK. Let us know if they start forcibly installing ONTs or some other new terminal interface in all those homes and retiring your current DOCSIS cable modems. I'm not saying they for sure aren't going to do that. (Apparently they're doing it in DigitalDawn's neighborhood.) But until they do, you're not really on "fiber-to-the-home" service, you're still on hybrid fiber/coax and your CableCARD TiVo should still work fine (not withstanding some possible issue with the VOD app that the OP reported, although we've really gotten sidetracked here and we don't know for sure if that's a real issue or just some misinformation he was given by Comcast reps).
> 
> If Comcast ends up switching all of Huntsville (if that's where you live) over from HFC to FTTH, that would be a big news-making deal.


I live in a small town about 20 miles out of St Paul. Strangely enough, I came home the other day to see little yellow flags at the back of my back yard that said Fiber Optic Line and you can barely see where the soil was disturbed. Nothing about who laid it. Neighbors have the same and no one near me saw it happen. LOL Stealth fiber. We have nothing but Comcast here so I'll call them first this next week. Back yards on my street butt up to the back yards of the houses on the next street usually with hedge rows or something so it looks like they just went down that path between streets. They did this so fast and quietly that none of my close neighbors knew anything about it.
By the way, we did get mail about VOD only working with the newer X1 boxes about a month or more ago. It also said that channels would gradually be unavailable too. It sounded like if you had an old box that they'd swap it out for free. They would send you one by mail or you could go to their store. Change is coming sooner than I thought it would.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> By the way, we did get mail about VOD only working with the newer X1 boxes about a month or more ago. It also said that channels would gradually be unavailable too. It sounded like if you had an old box that they'd swap it out for free. They would send you one by mail or you could go to their store. Change is coming sooner than I thought it would.


Hmm. That's interesting and good to know because, AFAIK, your comment is the first one to kinda-sorta substantiate what Comcast reps told the OP of this thread. He was told that VOD on his TiVo no longer worked because his area had been "converted to fiber," although it isn't clear what they meant by that. As I've said, it doesn't appear to mean "converting homes from HFC to FTTH". That apparently didn't happen with the OP and his TiVo still works with Comcast TV, aside from the VOD app. But whatever is going on with fiber deployment in the OP's neighborhood is perhaps what's happening in yours with the "stealth fiber" laid along your back yard boundary line.

My best guess is that what's happening in both the OP's area and in yours is a pair of developments that are happening across lots of US cable companies, including Comcast: "fiber deep" and "remote PHY". As I understand it, "fiber deep" refers to deploying more fiber in their networks, densifying the fiber network, so as to push it out closer to the end user and increase user speeds (among other benefits). The cable head-ends/nodes, where the network switches from fiber to coax, are pushed out closer to the end user and each node supports fewer end users. "Remote PHY" refers to a change in the architecture of the network itself, specifically in the way that those head-ends/nodes operate to take the pure digital signals from the fiber and convert them to analog physical radio frequency signals for the last short leg of the journey over coax. Remote PHY works with DOCSIS 3.1 and allows for faster speeds to more efficiently become available in both directions at a lower cost to the operator. Perhaps it's the switchover to this Remote PHY architecture that is making Comcast VOD incompatible with all but their IPTV-capable clients (X1 boxes and retail devices like Roku running the Xfinity Stream app).

Now, as for the notice you got from Comcast saying that more and more channels would gradually become unavailable without a newer X1 box, that simply sounds like they're making a decision to start moving channels off of QAM TV and over to IPTV, in anticipation of an eventual QAM shutdown (when all of that QAM bandwidth in the network can be devoted to IP data traffic instead, making the network 100% IP-based). There's nothing about fiber deep/remote PHY that necessarily means Comcast has to drop QAM, and clearly they're not completely dropping it _yet_. So the announcement about an increasing number of channels going away from non-X1 boxes looks, to me, like a business decision to nudge more of those holdouts on pre-X1 and TiVo STBs over to IPTV STBs (X1 and Roku). And once they've gotten nearly all of those STBs switched out, that's when they can completely pull the plug on QAM TV (or perhaps they'll leave a few channels, such as "lifeline" locals, on QAM indefinitely). So it's just a question of how long the remaining STB swap-out will take to complete. I still think 2020 is a reasonable guess.

At any rate, I think anyone in a Comcast area who's contemplating buying a new TiVo system with all-in/lifetime service at a minimum of $750 should really think twice. You may very soon no longer have access to Xfinity OnDemand as well as certain channels. And it's quite possible that your TiVo could completely stop working with Comcast TV before you've recouped your up-front investment.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> Believe me, I'll know right away. I'm one of those "pry my TiVo out of my cold dead hands" guy, so if it doesn't work, you'll hear me scream. Then figure out how I can get DirecTV in my unit.


Ha! OK. As for DirecTV, if AT&T follows through with the plans that their CEO has announced multiple times, they're supposed to roll out late this year a new service that's basically equivalent with their traditional satellite service, except that it will be delivered over any broadband connection and it will be priced somewhat lower than satellite. You'd get a new STB shipped to you from AT&T/DirecTV, connect it to your Comcast ethernet/wifi and then you'd have DirecTV. No need for a rooftop dish or a professional installation. Along with their own TV service, the STB will also support a range of apps from the Google Play store, including Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, etc. It'll support 4K HDR and use cloud DVR since it has no internal hard drive. We don't know for sure, but it's probably this box.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. That's interesting and good to know because, AFAIK, your comment is the first one to kinda-sorta substantiate what Comcast reps told the OP of this thread.


So far nothing has changed here and I sure don't know when it will but it seems like they are getting things ready for it.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Ha! OK. As for DirecTV, if AT&T follows through with the plans that their CEO has announced multiple times, they're supposed to roll out late this year a new service that's basically equivalent with their traditional satellite service, except that it will be delivered over any broadband connection and it will be priced somewhat lower than satellite. You'd get a new STB shipped to you from AT&T/DirecTV, connect it to your Comcast ethernet/wifi and then you'd have DirecTV. No need for a rooftop dish or a professional installation. Along with their own TV service, the STB will also support a range of apps from the Google Play store, including Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, etc. It'll support 4K HDR and use cloud DVR since it has no internal hard drive. We don't know for sure, but it's probably this box.


Would be really nice if they bundle this with ATT mobile device too.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Would be really nice if they bundle this with ATT mobile device too.


Yeah. Well, the CEO keeps referring to the existing DirecTV Now service, which they do bundle with mobile at a discount, as "mobile-centric". Meanwhile, he has referred to the upcoming service as "home-centric", so I suspect it will be offered in a discount bundle with AT&T home internet service. But, who knows, maybe mobile too. They're always switching around their promotions...


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Well, the CEO keeps referring to the existing DirecTV Now service, which they do bundle with mobile at a discount, as "mobile-centric". Meanwhile, he has referred to the upcoming service as "home-centric", so I suspect it will be offered in a discount bundle with AT&T home internet service. But, who knows, maybe mobile too. They're always switching around their promotions...


Considering regular directv also gets a bundle discount. I am sure the new one will as well


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Considering regular directv also gets a bundle discount. I am sure the new one will as well


Yeah. If they're willing to give their mobile customers $15 off of DTV Now (or get AT&T Watch TV, normally $15, for free), it would seem logical that they would let those customers instead use the $15 credit toward the cost of this upcoming "premium" OTT service. But I don't know that AT&T always operates logically, ha.

What sort of bundle discount do they offer when you package together mobile service with DTV satellite? I'm sure there's some kind of up-front promo pricing that expires in 12-24 months (which you always get, to some degree, with DTV satellite anyhow). But is there a permanent, ongoing $X off per month the way that there is with DTV Now's $15 discount?


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Then there's this new DTV Now "promo":
*DirecTV Now will raise prices by $5 on August 1st *


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

humbb said:


> Then there's this new DTV Now "promo":
> *DirecTV Now will raise prices by $5 on August 1st *


Ha. Yeah. I've been saying for awhile now to expect them to raise the starting price of DTV Now to $40 once they finally roll out their cloud DVR, which they did back in May (although it's still in beta and somewhat buggy, I think). PS Vue and YouTube TV both used to have starting prices at $35 but then they both went up to $40 awhile back. Hulu with Live TV has always started at $40. So AT&T is really just price matching the competition here. Totally predictable move. Still stinks for their customers, though.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> Ha. Yeah. I've been saying for awhile now to expect them to raise the starting price of DTV Now to $40 once they finally roll out their cloud DVR, which they did back in May (although it's still in beta and somewhat buggy, I think). PS Vue and YouTube TV both used to have starting prices at $35 but then they both went up to $40 awhile back. Hulu with Live TV has always started at $40. So AT&T is really just price matching the competition here. Totally predictable move. Still stinks for their customers, though.


yeah, but while it makes sense competitively and comparatively, i only pay about $40 for tv portion of my current cable bundle, so they've just matched traditional tv promotional rates.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> yeah, but while it makes sense competitively and comparatively, i only pay about $40 for tv portion of my current cable bundle, so they've just matched traditional tv promotional rates.


The amounts that people pay for cable TV as part of a bundle with internet are sort of all over the place. We've seen countless cost comparisons on here, and I posted a very extensive one myself before using Hulu with Live TV, including their enhanced cloud DVR, ad-free on-demand, and unlimited multi-screen add-ons to make it as feature-rich as traditional cable plus DVR. As I recall, when added with the standard price of standalone Comcast internet, Hulu Live still came out a little cheaper for a single TV household (and got increasingly cheaper the more TVs you added) vs. the standard pricing for packaged internet plus "expanded basic" cable TV with HD DVR service from Comcast based on their local price sheet for my area.

One thing that you're probably not including is the cost you paid for your TiVo hardware and service. A fair comparison has to include that. And a lot of times the rates that people say they're getting for bundling in TV is some kind of promo rate or a special that they were able to negotiate by calling in and threatening to cancel service. It may involve a contract for staying with the cable company a certain length of time. Some people don't mind doing that sort of stuff. For others, it's nicer to have the simplicity of no-contract, no-hassle regular pricing with an OTT service like DTV Now that they can add and drop whenever they like.

Personally, I don't really care one way or the other (although I do enjoy looking at where TV is going from a business and technology perspective). For myself, I don't have a desire to return to a linear-channel cable TV bundle, whether it's from Comcast or DTV Now or whoever. I have more quality content to watch (based on my tastes -- I'm not a big sports fan), with better picture quality, at a lower overall price by relying on basic ad-free Hulu + Netflix (4K HDR) + Showtime + HBO + free OTA TV + free OTT content (YouTube, Tubi, Plex channel plug-ins, etc.) than was the case back when I had satellite or cable. I subscribed to DTV Now for a few months but only because it was the cheapest way to score a new Apple TV 4K which I was planning to buy anyhow.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> The amounts that people pay for cable TV as part of a bundle with internet are sort of all over the place. We've seen countless cost comparisons on here, and I posted a very extensive one myself before using Hulu with Live TV, including their enhanced cloud DVR, ad-free on-demand, and unlimited multi-screen add-ons to make it as feature-rich as traditional cable plus DVR. As I recall, when added with the standard price of standalone Comcast internet, Hulu Live still came out a little cheaper for a single TV household (and got increasingly cheaper the more TVs you added) vs. the standard pricing for packaged internet plus "expanded basic" cable TV with HD DVR service from Comcast based on their local price sheet for my area.
> 
> One thing that you're probably not including is the cost you paid for your TiVo hardware and service. A fair comparison has to include that. And a lot of times the rates that people say they're getting for bundling in TV is some kind of promo rate or a special that they were able to negotiate by calling in and threatening to cancel service. It may involve a contract for staying with the cable company a certain length of time. Some people don't mind doing that sort of stuff. For others, it's nicer to have the simplicity of no-contract, no-hassle regular pricing with an OTT service like DTV Now that they can add and drop whenever they like.
> 
> Personally, I don't really care one way or the other (although I do enjoy looking at where TV is going from a business and technology perspective). For myself, I don't have a desire to return to a linear-channel cable TV bundle, whether it's from Comcast or DTV Now or whoever. I have more quality content to watch (based on my tastes -- I'm not a big sports fan), with better picture quality, at a lower overall price by relying on basic ad-free Hulu + Netflix (4K HDR) + Showtime + HBO + free OTA TV + free OTT content (YouTube, Tubi, Plex channel plug-ins, etc.) than was the case back when I had satellite or cable. I subscribed to DTV Now for a few months but only because it was the cheapest way to score a new Apple TV 4K which I was planning to buy anyhow.


the price is still comparable with tivo cost included, and there's no comparison to my preferences when it comes to programming + dvr + redbox. i've had hulu, netflix, and amazon prime multiple times each over the years, and for me they don't come close to what i prefer, even if it adds up to $5-$10 a month more - to each their own.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> the price is still comparable with tivo cost included, and there's no comparison to my preferences when it comes to programming + dvr + redbox. i've had hulu, netflix, and amazon prime multiple times each over the years, and for me they don't come close to what i prefer, even if it adds up to $5-$10 a month more - to each their own.


Yes, to each his own. But, for those who want to see a nitty-gritty, honest, detailed comparison of the costs of traditional linear channel pay TV (cable TV & DVR + internet) vs. streaming linear channel pay TV (Hulu with Live TV + standalone internet), see my post here and read forward for additional back-and-forth posts. Of course, this is based on pricing for Comcast in my local area. Pricing differs from one area and cable provider to another. Never mind getting into questions about which specific channels, etc. are important to your household...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ok, I had a chat with Comcast Cust Svc tonight. According to "Isaac", I will still have QAM. Of course, this is just one CSR, so who knows.

Here is the transcript, edited to remove fluff:


astrohip 9:24:04 PM
Hi astrohip, thank you for contacting Xfinity Chat Support. My name is Isaac. 

Isaac 9:25:35 PM
I'm a current Comcast user, I have equipment that uses QAM (Comcast issued cablecards). I am moving into a hi-rise that is 100% fiber optic to each unit. The fiber optic connects to a Commscope MicroNode BOS-MND-1602-O, which has a coax output. I need to know if that coax output from the Commscope is std QAM coax, or IP only. In other words, will I be able to continue using Comcast issued cablecards to watch TV?

astrohip 9:25:44 PM
I should add, it is a Comcast fiber optic connection

astrohip 9:26:08 PM
I am reading your concern. please allow me a minute.

I am sory once again for 2 minutes late to response, yes you connect your cable box.
Isaac 9:36:32 PM

so it's normal QAM output?
astrohip 9:36:46 PM

Yes.
Isaac 9:38:09 PM


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

astrohip said:


> Yes.
> Isaac 9:38:09 PM


I'm not familiar with that Scripture.


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## mahermusic (Mar 12, 2003)

Huh??


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

humbb said:


> I'm not familiar with that Scripture.


_And there was TiVo throughout the land, and all was good._


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> _And there was TiVo throughout the land, and all was good._


Ha! Well, hopefully that CSR knows what he's talking about and you can keep using your TiVo. But those CSRs -- not only at Comcast, anywhere really, especially chat agents -- often can't be trusted to correctly answer any sort of semi-complex technical question...


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I'm feeling better about my odds. I did some more research on the Commscope device, a RFoG unit, and a spec sheet clearly states:
_
This standard defined a fiber-to-the-home system optimized for compatibility with hybrid fiber-coax (HFC) plant, using the same end equipment at both the home and at the headend or hub._

Same end equipment as HFC would be QAM devices.

Link:
https://www.commscope.com/catalog/d...y_of_CommScope_MicroNodes_and_Legacy_NIUs.pdf


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i'm following through on the xod errors, but it's not an easy or quick process, i'll post when i know more.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

@astrohip, the only problem I ran into with using a cablecard on a new Cox fiber network (where every house got a RFoG device that sounds similar to the Commscope one that you mentioned above) was that the fiber ran to a new headend that hadn't been configured for cablecards/tuning adapters yet. Out of the gate, I could get everything except SDV channels (which involves sending signals upstream).









It took a lot of working with local Cox support (and ultimately filing a FCC complaint to get some higher-level focus on the issue), but they got it all working in about two weeks.

Hopefully you and @DigitialDawn will be good to go!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

aristoBrat said:


> @astrohip, the only problem I ran into with using a cablecard on a new Cox fiber network (where every house got a RFoG device that sounds similar to the Commscope one that you mentioned above) was that the fiber ran to a new headend that hadn't been configured for cablecards/tuning adapters yet. Out of the gate, I could get everything except SDV channels (which involves sending signals upstream).


And Comcast doesn't even use SDV, so that shouldn't be a factor for astrohip or DigitalDawn. So hopefully DigitalDawn was just given bad info when she was told that her TiVo would no longer work after the switchover to FTTH. You just really never know if what a particular Comcast rep tells you is true or not.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

astrohip said:


> Ok, I had a chat with Comcast Cust Svc tonight. According to "Isaac", I will still have QAM. Of course, this is just one CSR, so who knows.
> 
> Here is the transcript, edited to remove fluff:
> 
> ...


There is nothing I read above that leads me to believe the chat rep has any idea regarding the question. The moment you typed 'Commscope MicroNode BOS-MND-1602-O' .... you lost him. His response of 'yes you connect your cable box' tells me he's interpreting this as a 'Can I use my X1 box'. Chat reps are the lowest of the low on the rep totem pole and I would not take anything I read above as 'official'.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

eherberg said:


> There is nothing I read above that leads me to believe the chat rep has any idea regarding the question. The moment you typed 'Commscope MicroNode BOS-MND-1602-O' .... you lost him. His response of 'yes you connect your cable box' tells me he's interpreting this as a 'Can I use my X1 box'. Chat reps are the lowest of the low on the rep totem pole and I would not take anything I read above as 'official'.


But but but... it's Isaac. He seemed sorta kinda like he maybe knew what he was doing. 

However, my later post about the specs on the Commscope made me feel pretty good about my odds.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

astrohip said:


> But but but... it's Isaac. He seemed sorta kinda like he maybe knew what he was doing.
> 
> However, my later post about the specs on the Commscope made me feel pretty good about my odds.


This reminded me of an incident a year or so ago that I had with Hulu. The app had stopped working on my LG smart TV. Tricks I'd done in the past, like a full delete and reinstall of the app, were no longer sufficient to get it to launch successfully for me.

So I called Hulu customer support. Spoke with a nice support rep (who even sounded as though she was based here in the US!) who told me that she had _just_ seen a notice going around the office there that Hulu was no longer going to support their app on my model of LG TV.

"So not only is Hulu not going to give my TV the new version of their app -- with the new UI and live TV -- but they're just going to completely kill off the existing app so that it no longer will launch on my expensive OLED TV that I bought less than a year ago?!" I incredulously asked.

"Yes, I'm sorry," she responded. "That's what we were informed in the memo that I just saw."

Of course, her answer soon proved to be absolute garbage. The issues I was having with the app turned out to be temporary and I was later able to get it to launch again so that I could watch Hulu. Where did she get the idea for the answer she gave me? Was she confused? Was she making something up to get me off the phone because she's rewarded for the number of calls she completes per hour? Was she a pathological liar who told me that for kicks and giggles? Who knows. But based on that, and various other experiences, I've learned that you can't necessarily trust the technical answers that those first-line support reps give you.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> This reminded me of an incident a year or so ago that I had with Hulu. The app had stopped working on my LG smart TV. Tricks I'd done in the past, like a full delete and reinstall of the app, were no longer sufficient to get it to launch successfully for me.
> 
> So I called Hulu customer support. Spoke with a nice support rep (who even sounded as though she was based here in the US!) who told me that she had _just_ seen a notice going around the office there that Hulu was no longer going to support their app on my model of LG TV.
> 
> ...


did you confirm her reply with a supervisor? when working with level 1 support, anytime i receive a questionable response like the one she gave, i generally work up the chain, just to be sure.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> did you confirm her reply with a supervisor? when working with level 1 support, anytime i receive a questionable response like the one she gave, i generally work up the chain, just to be sure.


Nope. Didn't want to prolong the call. Figured it was a waste of time. And, as I say, the problem resolved itself in a day or so.

Also, I now do all my streaming through an Apple TV, which is a much better supported app platform than LG's webOS. Haven't had any such problems with Hulu or any other app on the Apple TV.

Ultimately, there's a correct, logical response to the technical questions we ask. But sometimes it isn't worth the time and effort required to get the answer...


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. If they're willing to give their mobile customers $15 off of DTV Now (or get AT&T Watch TV, normally $15, for free), it would seem logical that they would let those customers instead use the $15 credit toward the cost of this upcoming "premium" OTT service. But I don't know that AT&T always operates logically, ha.
> 
> What sort of bundle discount do they offer when you package together mobile service with DTV satellite? I'm sure there's some kind of up-front promo pricing that expires in 12-24 months (which you always get, to some degree, with DTV satellite anyhow). But is there a permanent, ongoing $X off per month the way that there is with DTV Now's $15 discount?


. It is a lifetime 15 dollar discount


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NorthAlabama said:


> i'm following through on the xod errors, but it's not an easy or quick process, i'll post when i know more.


received an answer today that matched the op, confirming xod was no longer available to tivo customers who live in comcast markets, following the upgrade to fiber.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

For whatever it’s worth, I went from 2009-2014 with my Moxi DVR and no access to Comcast on Demand and it wasn’t all that bad. And with all the streaming options now I’d probably prefer to keep my TiVo going as long as I can than switchover to X1 but that’s just me.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> For whatever it's worth, I went from 2009-2014 with my Moxi DVR and no access to Comcast on Demand and it wasn't all that bad. And with all the streaming options now I'd probably prefer to keep my TiVo going as long as I can than switchover to X1 but that's just me.


i can access on demand using xfinitystream in my web browser on the pc, and the stream app on android mobile, but that's not the point - it's a loss of service, unacknowledged by, or unknown to, both tivo and comcast highest levels of tech support (at the moment), which wastes hours of time in troubleshooting.

is it worth ditching tivo for x1? not at the moment, no, but that all depends on what other services are lost along the way in the future, and i would definitely think twice before investing in new tivo equipment, that's for sure.


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## JJ_GA (Jul 7, 2018)

I’m glad I found this thread. We haven’t been able to use Comcast on demand for about a month. Many calls to Comcast and a tech to the house. Comcast is aware of this issue and they stated this affects Georgia and Florida. There is an open outage ticket. JB22668507 Comcast has always seemed unwilling to properly support cable cards. Would it be worth contacting the FCC?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> received an answer today that matched the op, confirming xod was no longer available to tivo customers who live in comcast markets, following the upgrade to fiber.


On the bright side, that eliminates one argument for Comcast not allowing access to HBO GO on the TiVo platform, at least for Fiber neighborhoods.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> On the bright side, that eliminates one argument for Comcast not allowing access to HBO GO on the TiVo platform, at least for Fiber neighborhoods.


that's funny! 

not that i'm skeptical (no...really!  ), i think i'll wait for other users to report any change before trying to log in via tivo again myself.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Hi guys, sorry I haven't weighed in on this yet. We built the Xfinity On-Demand app back in 2011 to interface with Comcast's (now legacy) on-demand system. This system streams over digital cable (QAM) channels and does not support IP delivery. The app mechanism that we used on the TiVo box (HME) has also been largely put into maintenance mode. This is why the look & feel of the XOD app is still the old blue with yellow menu highlights. 

As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks for chiming in, always appreciated!



TiVo_Ted said:


> As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


Good to hear y'all are working together. The only reason I stay with Comcast is TiVo. When that is no longer an option, Comcast will lose me to DirecTV.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

JJ_GA said:


> ... Would it be worth contacting the FCC?


No, they are not required to support VoD via CC, just linear.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

ah30k said:


> No, they are not required to support VoD via CC, just linear.


Glossary: 
"they" == Comcast
"CC" == CableCARD​'gist: Contact the FCC all you want, but there is no regulation requiring Comcast to provide access to their Video On Demand library, just access to their linear cable channels via CableCARD.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Hi guys, sorry I haven't weighed in on this yet. We built the Xfinity On-Demand app back in 2011 to interface with Comcast's (now legacy) on-demand system. This system streams over digital cable (QAM) channels and does not support IP delivery. The app mechanism that we used on the TiVo box (HME) has also been largely put into maintenance mode. This is why the look & feel of the XOD app is still the old blue with yellow menu highlights.
> 
> As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


Does that mean access to IP based tv delivery post cable card?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Yes. I'm wondering specifically about the letter from Comcast that was referenced in post #40 on this thread:



mschnebly said:


> By the way, we did get mail about VOD only working with the newer X1 boxes about a month or more ago. It also said that channels would gradually be unavailable too. It sounded like if you had an old box that they'd swap it out for free. They would send you one by mail or you could go to their store. Change is coming sooner than I thought it would.


TiVo_Ted is acknowledging that the current Xfinity OnDemand app for TiVo is being phased out, which is consistent with various user reports on this thread. OK, good to know that TiVo is confirming that.

But TiVo_Ted is also saying that Comcast will continue to deliver linear channels via CableCARD, which seems to be contradicted by mschnebly's post above saying that "channels would gradually be unavailable too". Maybe I'm misinterpreting that, but it sounds like Comcast saying that at least some of their linear channels would eventually be available only on X1 (because, I'm inferring, they would be moved from QAM to IPTV delivery).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

It’s all a matter of semantics. They already have dropped extra HD HBO’s from linear to on demand only and have pushed HD sports packages like Extra Innings to IPTV.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


I'm hoping that you can continue this relationship despite the lawsuits over patents. Although we don't use it that often, continuing to have access to on-demand would be nice to have as well the ability to continue to access their digital TV services post-CableCARD (or as new channels become only available digitally and not linearly).

Scott


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> It's all a matter of semantics. They already have dropped extra HD HBO's from linear to on demand only and have pushed HD sports packages like Extra Innings to IPTV.


So you're saying that when Comcast says that channels will gradually become unavailable to non-X1 users, it's simply because they're going to completely pull the plug on those linear channels and move the underlying content over to IP-delivered on-demand? Maybe, but I kinda doubt it. Beyond the premium multiplex channels (e.g. HBO 2, HBO Signature, Showtime 2, Showtime Extreme, etc.), which all just air the same stuff at different times, and specialty live sports packages like Extra Innings (which don't constitute 24/7 linear broadcast channels, even if they are transmitted via a linear channel slot), I can't think of other examples of linear channels that Comcast could easily pull from their line-up and replace with just that channel's on-demand library.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> It's all a matter of semantics. They already have dropped extra HD HBO's from linear to on demand only and have pushed HD sports packages like Extra Innings to IPTV.


Those extra HBO and other premium channels in HD have been missing here in the Philadelphia area since at least 2008 (if they even existed at all as I didn't have HD prior to then) on Comcast so I'm not sure that proves much.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Those extra HBO and other premium channels in HD have been missing here in the Philadelphia area since at least 2008 (if they even existed at all as I didn't have HD prior to then) on Comcast so I'm not sure that proves much.


same in our market, 4 hd hbo's (5 with latin), 2 hd sho's, my biggest disappointment following dumping dtv - on the other hand, xod is dependable and truly on-demand, as well as the android and browser apps.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Those extra HBO and other premium channels in HD have been missing here in the Philadelphia area since at least 2008 (if they even existed at all as I didn't have HD prior to then) on Comcast so I'm not sure that proves much.


The point is that they have done it and continue to. First they will probably only put premium and new channels on IPTV.

Even fios was doing it. They abandoned their IPTV platform but they had a lot more HD on it while it existed. Comcast can supplement using X1 and they probably will. They will keep stuff on QAM for a long time but migrate.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Those extra HBO and other premium channels in HD have been missing here in the Philadelphia area since at least 2008 (if they even existed at all as I didn't have HD prior to then) on Comcast so I'm not sure that proves much.


Not all franchises had any of the extra HBO channels in HD (here for example). We've always had only a single HD HBO channel. You can't drop what you never had. 

Scott


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

HerronScott said:


> Not all franchises had any of the extra HBO channels in HD (here for example). We've always had only a single HD HBO channel. You can't drop what you never had.
> Scott


Same here for HBO, Cinemax, etc., and not Comcast. Not copy protected either.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

I seldom used an Xfinity VOD but most of the time if I actually wanted to use VOD on my Mini I would have to I believe go to 'standby' restart the Mini and do a TiVo connection to get the Xfinity APP to populate. A terrible nuisance BUT NO MORE!!

I turned in my CableCard yesterday and I'm Layer3 TV for a MAIN and one LITE box(Their Mini). I regret it not. I won't debate the fact that I'll miss the TiVo features but not Xfinity TV. If I do a Layer3 TV VOD (CBS Example - the 60 minute TV SHOW is 53 minutes and the breaks aren't 'advertisements' but CBS Trailers for current series.) I've tested it just twice.

Premiums? HBO if I subscribed would get me 14 channels all HD. I don't subscribe.

Living alone I'm very confident this will work for me and if I were to have duplicated the channel offering in a Xfinity Package it would have been substantially more and then there's the Xfinity nonsense. I haven't had support this efficient since I was an early adopter of DirecPC - when I had DirecPC if I had issues I got up 3:00 AM because I knew I'd likely get the same technician.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

HerronScott said:


> Not all franchises had any of the extra HBO channels in HD (here for example). We've always had only a single HD HBO channel. You can't drop what you never had.
> 
> Scott


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I get all those extra premiums but have never had them in HD aside from HBO2.


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## haniwa202 (Jan 28, 2014)

I could not access Comcast Vod using the channel listed in the channel guide, but the app worked. Hadn't heard the thing about fiber. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

haniwa202 said:


> I could not access Comcast Vod using the channel listed in the channel guide, but the app worked. Hadn't heard the thing about fiber.


tivo has never been able to access xod through the channels in the guide, we were discussing using the xfinity on-demand app on tivo - once your area is upgraded to fiber, the tivo app no longer accesses xod, but until then you should be ok.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> "Remote PHY" refers to a change in the architecture of the network itself, specifically in the way that those head-ends/nodes operate to take the pure digital signals from the fiber and convert them to analog physical radio frequency signals for the last short leg of the journey over coax. Remote PHY works with DOCSIS 3.1 and allows for faster speeds to more efficiently become available in both directions at a lower cost to the operator. Perhaps it's the switchover to this Remote PHY architecture that is making Comcast VOD incompatible with all but their IPTV-capable clients (X1 boxes and retail devices like Roku running the Xfinity Stream app).


It's possible that Remote PHY is not compatible with QAM-based VOD, but that seems unlikely, unless they simply designed QAM-based VOD out of the system when moving to Remote PHY. To me, it seems more likely that they simply don't want to tie up bandwidth with VOD QAMs. They have a bunch of QAMs for VOD, with 4 MPEG-2 HD VOD streams per QAM, sitting there all the time, empty most of the time. IP-based VOD uses the existing DOCSIS channels, and is probably not a big bandwidth user compared to everything else going on, so it likely doesn't require additional DOCSIS QAMs, and it's all MPEG-4 based.



> Now, as for the notice you got from Comcast saying that more and more channels would gradually become unavailable without a newer X1 box, that simply sounds like they're making a decision to start moving channels off of QAM TV and over to IPTV, in anticipation of an eventual QAM shutdown (when all of that QAM bandwidth in the network can be devoted to IP data traffic instead, making the network 100% IP-based).


They were cruising along with MPEG-4 as a step towards IPTV, but beyond that, they haven't seemed to do a whole lot in the past couple of years. I'm not convinced that they are in any rush to move towards IPTV. I think it's clear that the eventual goal is 100% IPTV, but I'm wondering if they have stopped moving towards that, and are instead streamlining the channel lineup, going fiber-deep (small nodes), and waiting to see how the pay-tv landscape changes/implodes/partially disappears before investing big into IPTV. If cable channels start to implode and disappear, that takes away more of the bandwidth argument for moving entirely to IPTV.



> At any rate, I think anyone in a Comcast area who's contemplating buying a new TiVo system with all-in/lifetime service at a minimum of $750 should really think twice. You may very soon no longer have access to Xfinity OnDemand as well as certain channels. And it's quite possible that your TiVo could completely stop working with Comcast TV before you've recouped your up-front investment.


I would, however, agree with that statement. However, no one should subscribe to Comcast's TV service in the first place. The video quality is complete trash, it's overpriced, and the channel lineup is lousy. I also think that the changing pay tv landscape is more of a threat to TiVo than Comcast is, at least in the next 48-60 months, as the downward spiral around pay tv is getting steeper and faster, and it's likely in 5 years that the whole landscape will look very different. Things take a lot of time to change, but cord cutting is moving faster than anyone expected, and continues to accelerate.

Meanwhile, ATSC 3.0 is on the horizon for OTA, although we have a guaranteed 5+ years of ATSC 1.0 by law in one form or another, at least in SD at reduced quality. Still, I'd hesitate to buy a new Roamio OTA at this point with 3.0 being right around the corner. I'm still not convinced that 3.0 is ever going to be widely deployed, but several large broadcasters seem to be excited about it for reasons I cannot understand. I would think the name of the game now would be minimum necessary OTA broadcasting plus pay tv retransmission fees plus moving to an online/streaming model.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Meanwhile, ATSC 3.0 is on the horizon for OTA, although we have a guaranteed 5+ years of ATSC 1.0 by law in one form or another, at least in SD at reduced quality. Still, I'd hesitate to buy a new Roamio OTA at this point with 3.0 being right around the corner. I'm still not convinced that 3.0 is ever going to be widely deployed, but several large broadcasters seem to be excited about it for reasons I cannot understand. I would think the name of the game now would be minimum necessary OTA broadcasting plus pay tv retransmission fees plus moving to an online/streaming model.


Agreed, 4k broadcasts will make sports look good given the proper equipment, but other then that ATSC 3.0 will bring screaming on the internet for years to come. There will be a lot of "I bought a 4k TV for this" howling going on. The day everyone can get high speed internet, it's the beginning of the end for OTA. Of course, we may all be dead by then...


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Bigg said:


> It's possible that Remote PHY is not compatible with QAM-based VOD, but that seems unlikely, unless they simply designed QAM-based VOD out of the system when moving to Remote PHY. To me, it seems more likely that they simply don't want to tie up bandwidth with VOD QAMs. They have a bunch of QAMs for VOD, with 4 MPEG-2 HD VOD streams per QAM, sitting there all the time, empty most of the time. IP-based VOD uses the existing DOCSIS channels, and is probably not a big bandwidth user compared to everything else going on, so it likely doesn't require additional DOCSIS QAMs, and it's all MPEG-4 based.
> 
> They were cruising along with MPEG-4 as a step towards IPTV, but beyond that, they haven't seemed to do a whole lot in the past couple of years. I'm not convinced that they are in any rush to move towards IPTV. I think it's clear that the eventual goal is 100% IPTV, but I'm wondering if they have stopped moving towards that, and are instead streamlining the channel lineup, going fiber-deep (small nodes), and waiting to see how the pay-tv landscape changes/implodes/partially disappears before investing big into IPTV. If cable channels start to implode and disappear, that takes away more of the bandwidth argument for moving entirely to IPTV.
> 
> ...


I think the channel lineup and price are great for what I want that I cannot get a comparative package/convenience via streaming for now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tenthplanet said:


> The day everyone can get high speed internet, it's the beginning of the end for OTA. Of course, we may all be dead by then...


We're not THAT far off from universal broadband availability now. At the end of 2016, 92.3% of Americans had access to wired internet at 25 Mbps or faster.

2018 Broadband Deployment Report

All video will eventually be delivered via the internet. Already it's very common for local stations to deliver the only content they actually own -- local news -- via the Internet. OTA distribution made sense in the old days when everyone didn't already have another connection through which TV could be delivered. But with ubiquitous broadband, why rely on any other pipe?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Semi-update: Install scheduled for next Thursday, one week away. I asked the Comcast CSR about my fiber node; he knew it was fiber, and offered me Gigabit Internet service. He also noted I had cable cards on my account, and did I want to continue using them. I asked if they would still work with the fiber, and he said yes. I did not ask about VOD.

We'll find out in a week.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> They were cruising along with MPEG-4 as a step towards IPTV, but beyond that, they haven't seemed to do a whole lot in the past couple of years. I'm not convinced that they are in any rush to move towards IPTV. I think it's clear that the eventual goal is 100% IPTV, but I'm wondering if they have stopped moving towards that, and are instead streamlining the channel lineup, going fiber-deep (small nodes), and waiting to see how the pay-tv landscape changes/implodes/partially disappears before investing big into IPTV. If cable channels start to implode and disappear, that takes away more of the bandwidth argument for moving entirely to IPTV.


Yeah. Perhaps Comcast is pausing on the QAM-to-IPTV transition as they try to figure out where the whole pay TV industry is likely to be in a few years time. But frankly, I don't think there's much of a cost outlay that Comcast would need to make to complete the transition to IPTV other than the switchover of a number of legacy STBs in the field (which, of course, is not an insignificant cost). I don't think that there would be much in the way of upgrades to be done to their network and back-end systems (outside of work already being done, such as fiber-deep/N+0). As I've stated so many times before, they already deliver their entire TV service via IPTV (Roku, iOS, Android, web browser). So the question really is if and when Comcast is going to make a dedicated push to convert that last -- what? 30%? -- of users on QAM-only STBs over to IPTV-compatible devices/apps.

Along those lines, you may find interesting the exchange I had with NorthAlabama recently. Start reading here and then progress down the rest of the page. Looks like his neighbor there in Huntsville, AL may have been forced to take an IPTV-only STB (no QAM, no hard drive) to retain his TV package at a discounted price. If I understand correctly, the neighbor doesn't also have a regular X1 (hybrid QAM/IPTV) box, so this new box is acting as a standalone unit, not an X1 extender. Prior to this, the only 100% IPTV Comcast TV customers I was aware of were those on Xfinity Instant TV, using Rokus and mobile devices. But perhaps Comcast is now rolling out their own IPTV-only STBs for use with their "traditional" TV packages?



Bigg said:


> I also think that the changing pay tv landscape is more of a threat to TiVo than Comcast is, at least in the next 48-60 months, as the downward spiral around pay tv is getting steeper and faster, and it's likely in 5 years that the whole landscape will look very different. Things take a lot of time to change, but cord cutting is moving faster than anyone expected, and continues to accelerate.


Yep. Things can seem to change slowly until they reach a tipping point and then they change rapidly. I doubt that the transition from channel-based traditional TV to (mostly) on-demand OTT TV will be done in 5 years but we'll certainly be further along that path by then than we are now. It will be pretty clear by then who the major players in the next era of video entertainment will be. Actually, it's already hard to imagine they will be anyone other than Netflix, Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, AT&T, Comcast, maybe Facebook, and maybe one other big player formed from mergers of multiple small-to-midsized traditional media companies (if they don't get swallowed by the aforementioned titans), such as CBS, Discovery, Viacom, Lionsgate, and Sony.



Bigg said:


> Meanwhile, ATSC 3.0 is on the horizon for OTA, although we have a guaranteed 5+ years of ATSC 1.0 by law in one form or another, at least in SD at reduced quality. Still, I'd hesitate to buy a new Roamio OTA at this point with 3.0 being right around the corner. I'm still not convinced that 3.0 is ever going to be widely deployed, but several large broadcasters seem to be excited about it for reasons I cannot understand. I would think the name of the game now would be minimum necessary OTA broadcasting plus pay tv retransmission fees plus moving to an online/streaming model.


Cord-cutters looking to spend serious money (relative to their budget) on OTA TV equipment right now are in a quandary. Yes, ATSC 3.0 is on the horizon but the consensus seems to be that manufacturers won't be selling TVs with built-in 3.0 tuners here until 2020. I had been anticipating that we would see a significant number of stations (not in every market, but most markets) begin 3.0 broadcasts in 2019. But that won't happen if there aren't tuners on the market available for purchase. Although, maybe we'll see standalone 3.0 tuners available next year (or even late this year). But, as you say, widespread adoption and success of 3.0 isn't a sure thing. The whole thing might turn out to be a flop, dividing and confusing the OTA TV-using public (which constitutes less than 1-in-5 households).

But, on the other hand, one would hate to spend too much on ATSC 1.0 equipment now when it may seem outdated just a year from now as it's possible that some of your local stations could launch 3.0 broadcasts by then. And if and when they do, that will probably mean reduced picture quality for their legacy 1.0 broadcasts.

As for the business prospects surrounding ATSC 3.0 -- and what it may mean for the entire national network/local affiliate TV model that's been in place for about 80 years now -- see my lengthy post here on another site.

But generally speaking, yes, it would seem to be in the networks' best financial interests to limit (not expand, as ATSC 3.0 would purportedly do) free access to their content via OTA TV and to maximize paid access (via MVPD retransmission and a shift to direct-to-consumer OTT streaming services). Seriously, why should the major networks not all do what NBC did in the Boston market by switching from a high-powered affiliate station, WHDH 7, to a low-power station (which they bought), WBTS-LD 8?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. Perhaps Comcast is pausing on the QAM-to-IPTV transition as they try to figure out where the whole pay TV industry is likely to be in a few years time. But frankly, I don't think there's much of a cost outlay that Comcast would need to make to complete the transition to IPTV other than the switchover of a number of legacy STBs in the field (which, of course, is not an insignificant cost). I don't think that there would be much in the way of upgrades to be done to their network and back-end systems (outside of work already being done, such as fiber-deep/N+0). As I've stated so many times before, they already deliver their entire TV service via IPTV (Roku, iOS, Android, web browser). So the question really is if and when Comcast is going to make a dedicated push to convert that last -- what? 30%? -- of users on QAM-only STBs over to IPTV-compatible devices/apps.
> 
> Along those lines, you may find interesting the exchange I had with NorthAlabama recently. Start reading here and then progress down the rest of the page. Looks like his neighbor there in Huntsville, AL may have been forced to take an IPTV-only STB (no QAM, no hard drive) to retain his TV package at a discounted price. If I understand correctly, the neighbor doesn't also have a regular X1 (hybrid QAM/IPTV) box, so this new box is acting as a standalone unit, not an X1 extender. Prior to this, the only 100% IPTV Comcast TV customers I was aware of were those on Xfinity Instant TV, using Rokus and mobile devices. But perhaps Comcast is now rolling out their own IPTV-only STBs for use with their "traditional" TV packages?
> 
> ...


I'm suspect of what NorthAlabama wrote because it sounded like he had limited information from his neighbor/friend (not questioning his judgement but just how accurate his friend is-when it comes to tech lots of neighbors/family/friends are clueless).


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I'm suspect of what NorthAlabama wrote because it sounded like he had limited information from his neighbor/friend (not questioning his judgement but just how accurate his friend is-when it comes to tech lots of neighbors/family/friends are clueless).


i'm suspicious, too. 

however, keep in mind my experience is with hands-on use and examination my neighbor's equipment, not simply word of mouth between friends. i will have another opportunity to more closely explore in the future, so i'll keep you posted.

sorry i've been slow to further research, it's been a little hectic lately, but i promise to have additional info this week, and i'll add this - the box is not displayed on any comcast support site online that i have found that provides user guides/support.

is there an xr15 remote combination for x1 that would allow access to view a system menu?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I'm moving into a condo that has Comcast fiber from start to finish. The AV guy I'm using was amazed, said it was the first time he's seen Comcast fiber optics in a residential setting (albeit multi-family). I currently get Comcast VOD. I'll check when I move (Aug) and see what happens.


Everything works. Cable cards, Comcast OD, everything. Comcast guy came this morning to activate Internet & TV, and the AV guys are installing the equipment as I type.

I have Comcast fiber to the unit, 100% fiber all the way to my wiring closet. In the closet is the equipment pictured below.

Two points:

1) It definitely outputs a QAM signal.

2) Comcast OnDemand still works. I just tried it, and it's all there. Watched a few seconds of various episodes. This is contrary to what some of you have been told, and what some have experienced. But I have it, no doubt.

Happy to answer any questions anyone might have.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

astrohip said:


> Happy to answer any questions anyone might have.


Great picture. May I ask the signal % and SNR?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> May I ask the signal % and SNR?


Sure, if you tell me what the heck I'm looking for?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

astrohip said:


> Sure, if you tell me what the heck I'm looking for?


Help/Account & System Info/Diagnostics will show the first tuner.







Above is a good display for cable. OTA would have a Signal Strength of 72%.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Happy to answer any questions anyone might have.


Do you do MoCA, for your TiVo networking or otherwise? Absence of a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input of that red-labeled non-MoCA-optimized splitter tells me the Comcast techs think "no," but I'm curious if the techs think the filter is no longer needed due to the elimination of the security issue in switching to a fiber feed. (Performance benefit would still exist.)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Do you do MoCA, for your TiVo networking or otherwise? Absence of a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input of that red-labeled non-MoCA-optimized splitter tells me the Comcast techs think "no," but I'm curious if the techs think the filter is no longer needed due to the elimination of the security issue in switching to a fiber feed. (Performance benefit would still exist.)


No MoCA. I hard-wired Ethernet in this place.

So after 2-3 hours of working fine, the entire Comcast connection is dead. Lost. They are "working" on it. It was going so good...

I'll check the numbers you asked for when it's back up.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

astrohip said:


> So after 2-3 hours of working fine, the entire Comcast connection is dead. Lost. They are "working" on it. It was going so good...


You should check your diagnostics now to get a picture of what it looks like when things are bad.


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

On a couple different occasions a few years ago I was able to give Comcast 'real time' info that they used to pinpoint a problem in our neighborhood using the diagnostics screen. For the longest time 'distribution' said there isn't any issues but various people in the neighbor hood had unsolved issues also. The first Comcast tech said my problems were my own but everything in-house was fresh. He replaced both the drop at my entry and the one at the base of the pole, 2 days later same issue same time of day.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

astrohip said:


> Everything works. Cable cards, Comcast OD, everything. Comcast guy came this morning to activate Internet & TV, and the AV guys are installing the equipment as I type.
> 
> I have Comcast fiber to the unit, 100% fiber all the way to my wiring closet. In the closet is the equipment pictured below.
> 
> ...


question - was this comcast fiber project completed before june 30th? there's a significant reason i'm asking (i'll explain in follow-up).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> question - was this comcast fiber project completed before june 30th? there's a significant reason i'm asking (i'll explain in follow-up).


Yes, it was probably in place sometime in late spring.

Comcast was unable to figure out why everything died after an hour or so. Tech roll Saturday AM. 

And everything was working so well...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

astrohip said:


> Yes, it was probably in place sometime in late spring.
> 
> Comcast was unable to figure out why everything died after an hour or so. Tech roll Saturday AM.
> 
> And everything was working so well...


that makes sense, and here's why i asked - i've been in conversations with comcast executive relations to confirm the loss of xod on tivo in comcast markets upgraded to fiber, and they expanded on what ted already confirmed - comcast markets upgraded to fiber _after june 30th_ will lose xod, that was the end date of tivo's contract with comcast. if you've got tivo with xod, you'll keep your service, they're not proactively cutting tivo customers off - but, if there's a fiber upgrade in your comcast market, xod will no longer work afterwards.

i suspect that's why you have xod with comcast fiber, and i (we) don't.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> that makes sense, and here's why i asked - i've been in conversations with comcast executive relations to confirm the loss of xod on tivo in comcast markets upgraded to fiber, and they expanded on what ted already confirmed - comcast markets upgraded to fiber _after june 30th_ will lose xod, that was the end date of tivo's contract with comcast. if you've got tivo with xod, you'll keep your service, they're not proactively cutting tivo customers off - but, if there's a fiber upgrade in your comcast market, xod will no longer work afterwards.
> 
> i suspect that's why you have xod with comcast fiber, and i (we) don't.


Thanks for the sleuthing and sharing the info. So the end of XOD on TiVo is a contractual/business issue? Or maybe a combination of that plus a tech issue.

My guess is that when Comcast "upgrades an area to fiber" -- which probably typically means running fiber deeper and going to an N+0 architecture -- there's some extra step(s), and therefore cost, that they have to do in order to preserve XOD compatibility with TiVo. Apparently they were under contract with TiVo through 6/30/18 to preserve that compatibility for all their customers using TiVo. But now they aren't, so they're no longer taking any extra pains to keep XOD working with TiVo.

It's good that Comcast says they aren't proactively cutting off XOD to TiVo for those users unaffected by post-June fiber upgrades. But given the expiration of the contract with TiVo, I guess there's nothing stopping them from killing that app any time they wanted in the future...


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

TiVo Patent Nixed in Comcast's Patent Office Challenge

Dated July 26. 2018.

May be related to the topic.
"Comcast Corp. has convinced the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to invalidate a TiVo Corp. patent on technology that lets viewers search television content."


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> So the end of XOD on TiVo is a contractual/business issue? Or maybe a combination of that plus a tech issue.


the way it was explained to me, it's simply a contractual issue, not a techical issue, and i believe @astrohip confirmed this:

Comcast Cable Cards No Long Compatible with VOD on Fiber Networks​if you've got it, you keep it, unless changes to the network after june 30th 2018 remove functionality (the end date of tivo's contract with comcast) - they're not going to implement upgrades to make it compatible with new network configurations without a contract, even though it is still capable of operating if they chose to continue offering the service.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Hi guys, sorry I haven't weighed in on this yet. We built the Xfinity On-Demand app back in 2011 to interface with Comcast's (now legacy) on-demand system. This system streams over digital cable (QAM) channels and does not support IP delivery. The app mechanism that we used on the TiVo box (HME) has also been largely put into maintenance mode. This is why the look & feel of the XOD app is still the old blue with yellow menu highlights.
> 
> As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


I hope you also include cox in these talks, so if cox changes to fiber vod will still work on Tivo.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

NorthAlabama said:


> if you've got it, you keep it, *unless changes to the network after june 30th 2018 remove functionality (the end date of tivo's contract with comcast)* - they're not going to implement upgrades to make it compatible with new network configurations without a contract, even though it is still capable of operating if they chose to continue offering the service.


Right. We're saying the same thing (underscored by my emphasis of your quote).

I wonder what % of Comcast's footprint got this network upgrade prior to 6/30/18 (leaving XOD intact for TiVo users) and what % of their footprint are getting the network upgrade after that date (removing XOD functionality from their TiVos)?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Right. We're saying the same thing (underscored by my emphasis of your quote).
> 
> I wonder what % of Comcast's footprint got this network upgrade prior to 6/30/18 (leaving XOD intact for TiVo users) and what % of their footprint are getting the network upgrade after that date (removing XOD functionality from their TiVos)?


I'm in the Philly suburbs which is quite a big Comcast footprint and no changes to us so far.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> So after 2-3 hours of working fine, the entire Comcast connection is dead. Lost. They are "working" on it. It was going so good...
> I'll check the numbers you asked for when it's back up.
> 
> 
> ...


Tech determined that the Commscope node had failed (the box in the middle of the attached pic). He said it's not common, but not unheard of. But rare enough he didn't have one, and had to return to the shop to get a replacement. When he switched it out, I had a TV signal within about 30 seconds. And Internet of about 600Mbps.

And I forgot to check the numbers you wanted @JoeKustra. I'll get them the next time I'm over there, probably tonight. Big move is Monday & Tuesday. But the TVs are mounted, Internet works, TiVos hooked up... so I'm good. 

Ordered three more TiVo Mini Vox for the additional TVs. Should be here mid-week. Six TVs for two people in a two bedroom condo... yeah, my priorities are on target. 

Oh, and Comcast/Xfinity On Demand is back up and running.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Tech determined that the Commscope node had failed (the box in the middle of the attached pic).


So does Comcast provide a UPS for that device or is that left up to the customer? (I'm guessing you'll instantly lose Internet & TV during any power outage, otherwise.)


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> So does Comcast provide a UPS for that device or is that left up to the customer? (I'm guessing you'll instantly lose Internet & TV during any power outage, otherwise.)


No UPS. I'll provide my own.

Here are the stats on SNR etc. ..


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

astrohip said:


> No UPS. I'll provide my own.
> Here are the stats on SNR etc. ..


Put the TiVo on a UPS also. The Signal level is 100% and SNR is 40dB. Those are high, but if it works don't mess with it. You have RS errors, which could be caused by the signal being too hot. Again, if it works, don't fix it.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks. I'm not even sure what "fix it" would entail, but yeah, if it works...

I'm a big UPS believer. I put one on every TiVo DVR, and the router/modem setup. I'm also the guy who had his house wired with both CAT5 and antenna-fed coax, with dual drops at every TV. Just in case... (I hate missing my shows when there's a cable issue).

One of the TiVos I moved is a 4 stream Roamio, that was on antenna. I had two TiVos (Roamio-6, Premier Elite 4) on cablecards, and one on antenna. I'm taking the Roamio-6, and converting the R-4 to cablecard (already ran GS, just waiting on the card to finish). I'm going to drop the Elite, it's just too slow for apps like Netflix. And use Minis for the rest of the TVs.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

astrohip said:


> Tech determined that the Commscope node had failed (the box in the middle of the attached pic). He said it's not common, but not unheard of. But rare enough he didn't have one, and had to return to the shop to get a replacement. When he switched it out, I had a TV signal within about 30 seconds. And *Internet of about 600Mbps*.


Why so low? Don't you have the gigabit tier of service with your FTTH network?

I have Comcast's asymmetrical hybrid fiber coaxial (HFC) gigabit service, and my speeds are typically ≈ 950Mbps down- and 42Mbps upstream.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> Why so low? Don't you have the gigabit tier of service with your FTTH network?
> 
> I have Comcast's asymmetrical hybrid fiber coaxial (HFC) gigabit service, and my speeds are typically ≈ 950Mbps down- and 42Mbps upstream.


Oh the days of my 128K ISDN service!


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## timstack8969 (May 14, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Oh the days of my 128K ISDN service!


Still receiving on Comcast of Garden State NJ system. I wonder when I will Lose.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

chiguy50 said:


> Why so low? Don't you have the gigabit tier of service with your FTTH network?
> 
> I have Comcast's asymmetrical hybrid fiber coaxial (HFC) gigabit service, and my speeds are typically ≈ 950Mbps down- and 42Mbps upstream.


Wired or wireless? That was my wireless speed, which I thought was close to the adapters limit.

IAC, it's overkill for me. No kids, not much streaming or downloading, only use about 50-75GB a month.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

astrohip said:


> Wired or wireless? *That was my wireless speed*, which I thought was close to the adapters limit.
> 
> IAC, it's overkill for me. No kids, not much streaming or downloading, only use about 50-75GB a month.


Oh, OK. Now I understand.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Does raise an interesting point though. I'll hook up an Ethernet cable to one of the switches, and see what kind of speed I can get.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

We had a cable meeting with Comcast area reps last night.

After calling them out on their comments from the last time -- No QAM/cable-card capability on Fiber-to-the-Home installations -- they admitted that QAM is still in place for now.

They confirmed that the company is on its way to an IP-only architecture and told us that the conversion should be completed in 18 months or so. The rep did seem to think that there was a TiVo solution that was being worked on, but didn't have any more info on that.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Interesting. But I still think they're blowing smoke on the timeline. No way they're going to replace 20 million boxes in the field within 18 months when they haven't even started yet. Is there a single IP box deployed yet? I haven't heard of any. Haven't even seen an FCC filing for one on the drawing board. Also, wouldn't that cost literally a billion dollars in hardware alone (assuming $50 per box)?

EDIT: They made a similar claim in early 2017 that never came true:
Rumor: Comcast may go all-IP for new subs by year-end


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

mdavej said:


> Interesting. But I still think they're blowing smoke on the timeline. No way they're going to replace 20 million boxes in the field within 18 months when they haven't even started yet. Is there a single IP box deployed yet? I haven't heard of any. Also, wouldn't that cost literally a billion dollars in hardware alone (assuming $50 per box)?


exactly. And 20 million in 18 months....I'm SURE they can swap 900,000 a month.....there are tons of techs, right?


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

mdavej said:


> Interesting. But I still think they're blowing smoke on the timeline. No way they're going to replace 20 million boxes in the field within 18 months when they haven't even started yet. Is there a single IP box deployed yet? I haven't heard of any. Also, wouldn't that cost literally a billion dollars in hardware alone (assuming $50 per box)?


This. They are still giving out SD cable boxes, which means lots of people still have a SD TV.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mdavej said:


> Interesting. But I still think they're blowing smoke on the timeline. No way they're going to replace 20 million boxes in the field within 18 months when they haven't even started yet. Is there a single IP box deployed yet? I haven't heard of any. Also, wouldn't that cost literally a billion dollars in hardware alone (assuming $50 per box)?


They just had me come in and switch my X1 for their new X1 4K UHD HDR box. I dont even have a 4K TV yet. I like it because it's smaller with just one small light on the front.


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## ashipkowski (Oct 8, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Interesting. But I still think they're blowing smoke on the timeline. No way they're going to replace 20 million boxes in the field within 18 months when they haven't even started yet. Is there a single IP box deployed yet? I haven't heard of any. Haven't even seen an FCC filing for one on the drawing board. Also, wouldn't that cost literally a billion dollars in hardware alone (assuming $50 per box)?


As has been mentioned on this forum, the X1 boxes are already IPTV-capable, so the X1 installed base does not need to have hardware changed.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ashipkowski said:


> As has been mentioned on this forum, the X1 boxes are already IPTV-capable, so the X1 installed base does not need to have hardware changed.


Exactly. It's been awhile since I've seen a report from Comcast in terms of X1 penetration. But per this report, it looks like X1 went from accounting for 30% to 48% of Comcast TV subscribers from late 2015 to year-end 2016, with a goal of driving that number into the low 60s by year-end 2017. So here we are about 20 months later. What might the % be up to now? 65%? 70%?

Also, I haven't seen any figures on how much traction their new Xfinity Instant TV service -- which is fully IPTV (no QAM) accessed via Roku and mobile devices -- is getting yet. (This is an $18-including-fees skinny bundle with limited cloud DVR, i.e. their attempt to attract cord-cutters/nevers.) But they have been advertising it in as a package with cheap broadband service for new customers at promo rates, sometimes even throwing in a year of Showtime, Starz AND Cinemax for free. Customers on other traditional TV packages also have the option, I believe, to use a Roku on secondary TVs instead of a regular Comcast STB at a savings of $2.50 per month (same as if a CableCARD device is used in place of a Comcast STB). After a year on the market (which will happen in a few months), could Xfinity Instant TV comprise 5% of Comcast TV subs?

So just through churn/attrition, what percentage of Comcast's TV subscriber base is now on IPTV-capable hardware, I wonder?

Still, there are a significant number of non-X1 STBs deployed, including all those SD-only STBs. If they're still giving those out right now, that does make one wonder how serious they might be about a full QAM cut-off in 18 months.

We'll know that a full switchover to IPTV and away from QAM isn't too far away if they stop giving out QAM-only (i.e. non-IPTV) STBs and begin a recall of QAM-only hardware from the field. I tend to think we'll see Comcast deploy their own cheap IPTV-only STB (without a hard drive since it would exclusive use cloud DVR) that basically only runs the same Xfinity Stream app that they have on Roku, probably with both HDMI and component A/V ports (like the Roku Express+ has) so that they can be used with older TVs. Per this post from a guy in AL, it sounds like Comcast has possibly started deploying such a box.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

Is it possible that the Comcast rep meant his area specifically? Would Comcast necessarily have to do it nationwide?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

DigitalDawn said:


> Is it possible that the Comcast rep meant his area specifically? Would Comcast necessarily have to do it nationwide?


Yeah, very possible that he was just talking about your specific region. Comcast often rolls out changes -- such as the upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 -- on a regional basis. But once they make or begin the change in one region, they tend to do it in the others fairly soon rather than drag it out over multiple years to get the whole country upgraded.


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## haniwa202 (Jan 28, 2014)

I had X1 for awhile until I was able to get my Roamio Pro set up at that location. If X1 had the skip and fast playback features of Tivo, I'd probably keep it. You also cannot program recordings away from home. For now, I'll stay work Tivo. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Hi guys, sorry I haven't weighed in on this yet. We built the Xfinity On-Demand app back in 2011 to interface with Comcast's (now legacy) on-demand system. This system streams over digital cable (QAM) channels and does not support IP delivery. The app mechanism that we used on the TiVo box (HME) has also been largely put into maintenance mode. This is why the look & feel of the XOD app is still the old blue with yellow menu highlights.
> 
> As Comcast upgrades their network, they have committed to maintaining support for using CableCARD to access linear TV channels, but not on-demand channels. It's still early days, but we are working closely with Comcast to design and build a more modern way to access their new digital services.


I like the old "blue with yellow menu highlights" for the Xfinity On Demand app on my TiVo. It's way better than the mess that On Demand is on the X1. Trying to find the purchases section on the X1, a hassle. Trying to find specific shows without using the voice remote on the X1, a hassle. Whatever happened to simplicity with options? I do miss being able to search within On Demand itself, just for On Demand videos.

I for one loved the interface of the legacy Comcast DVRs. I sort of miss it. I do enjoy six tuners and the TiVo interface, but there is so much the Roamio lacks that my legacy Comcast DVR provided. More sound options (audio compression, mono, etc.), toggling captioning with a single button push (no two-second hold), ability to skip five or 10 minutes in On Demand rather than having to play for 40+ minutes to watch a few seconds of something that I missed on a live recording. Okay, those aren't necessarily interface related, but I wanted to put that out there.

I hope TiVo will work with Comcast at providing a way that we can record things on fiber and still use the same Encore interface without the need of an app. You know, like My Shows, folders, etc., that'd be great. But I don't want to use an app.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

For anyone reading this thread, some of the issues involved are also touched on in a newer thread here:
TiVo support for IPTV

Although astrohip reports above that he is able to use his TiVo in his new condo, which has Comcast FTTH service, it looks like other neighborhoods that Comcast is converting to FTTH service are NOT compatible with TiVo. The difference is that, in astrohip's case, the local network uses RFoG (radio frequency over glass), which allows for QAM-based TV over fiber (aka "glass"). Only QAM-based TV works with CableCARD devices like TiVo. But, as reported by other folks (including DigitalDawn) in the thread I link above, some neighborhoods getting converted by Comcast to FTTH are using EPON (ethernet passive optical network) technology rather than EFoG and therefore their connections are not compatible with QAM-TV. Rather, these FTTH EPON neighborhoods receive only IPTV service from Comcast, meaning those folks CANNOT use TiVo.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Correct. There are MANY, MANY, more RFoG installations out there right now, but that may change over time as Comcast moves to EPON. Unfortunately, they didn't do EPON the way Cox did, which allowed QAM for TV and EPON for data at the same time.


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## DigitalDawn (Apr 26, 2009)

Do you think the FCC would be of any help?

The reason I ask is that, clearly the old infrastructure that used QAM would still be intact. In fact, they said that initially both FTTH and copper would be active at the same time, and that they would later turn off the copper/QAM. If they can both coexist then why not keep the QAM up and running?


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

DigitalDawn said:


> Do you think the FCC would be of any help?
> 
> The reason I ask is that, clearly the old infrastructure that used QAM would still be intact. In fact, they said that initially both FTTH and copper would be active at the same time, and that they would later turn off the copper/QAM. If they can both coexist then why not keep the QAM up and running?


Support and maintenance costs might be the reason.


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