# PC Magazine-May 8, 2007-Tivo Article



## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

I just downloaded my issue of PC Magazine-May 8, 2007. On page 64 there is an article comparing the Tivo S3 to the SA8300HD.

The author's conclusion: "Trust me. If I'm leaving Tivo, its in trouble. This breaks my heart; Tivo has always been friendly, innovative, fun and easy to use."


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

MitchW said:


> I just downloaded my issue of PC Magazine-May 8, 2007. On page 64 there is an article comparing the Tivo S3 to the SA8300HD.
> 
> The author's conclusion: "Trust me. If I'm leaving Tivo, its in trouble. This breaks my heart; Tivo has always been friendly, innovative, fun and easy to use."


Can you please explain the quoted conclusion - I'm unclear what it is, without the context. Is the author leaving TiVo for the SA8300? If so, why? Cost reasons, as in the SA8300 is less expensive? Or because features on the SA8300 have improved so they are comparable to TiVo?

How about a link to the article?

I have TiVo. I have DirecTV's DVR+ (HR20). I have Cablevision's SA8300.

The SA8300 is no where NEAR either the HR20 or the TiVo in terms of reliability, features, and ease of use, so the only thing I can conclude is the author's talking about cost of ownership.


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## Testpattern (Dec 5, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Can you please explain the quoted conclusion - I'm unclear what it is, without the context. Is the author leaving TiVo for the SA8300? If so, why? Cost reasons, as in the SA8300 is less expensive? Or because features on the SA8300 have improved so they are comparable to TiVo?
> 
> How about a link to the article?
> 
> ...


I'm with drew2k on this one. Just unloaded a 8300 for my S3 and there's absolutely nothing in favor of the 8300 except the money. Can you help us understand why they reached the conclusion they did?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Trust me, if I leave TiVo, I'm dead. Or behind bars.

See my sig . . .I have 'em both.


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

A reader's conclusion: "Huh??"


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

What software is the author's SA box running? I think there's at least 3 vastly different softwares that could run on that box depending on the cable co and location.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

we need the original poster to elaborate on what that reviewer didnt like abut the s3. I find it hard to believe he's saying a cable dvr is better. Especialy if he was an avid tivo fan.


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## gwar9999 (Jan 16, 2007)

davecramer74 said:


> we need the original poster to elaborate on what that reviewer didnt like abut the s3. I find it hard to believe he's saying a cable dvr is better. Especialy if he was an avid tivo fan.


Especially if it's an SA8300HD! It is the biggest piece of junk since the invention of junk. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Scientific Atlanta had a patent on junk.

http://www.phil-schwartz.com/reviews/cox_sciatlanta_8300hd/


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

MitchW said:


> I just downloaded my issue of PC Magazine-May 8, 2007. On page 64 there is an article comparing the Tivo S3 to the SA8300HD.
> 
> The author's conclusion: "Trust me. If I'm leaving Tivo, its in trouble. This breaks my heart; Tivo has always been friendly, innovative, fun and easy to use."


I had the same box from cablevision and it's a piece of crap!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

If it's the SARA software, the guy is insane to prefer it over TiVo.

Maybe others are better.


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## mbernste (Apr 6, 2003)

Notice how the OP never replied to requests for context to the quote? This has "troll" all over it.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I take issue that the SA8300 is a "piece of junk," unreliable, etc. I'm a long time TiVo owner and fan.

I'm with TW in NYC, and I have both units the OP is talking about. Yeah, the interface isn't as elegant, but once you know where things are (how to search for a show, how to program the season pass and options, etc.), it's pretty easy to operate. It doesn't have wishlists (which I never use), nor suggestions (which I never use). It's very reliable recording programs. MORE reliable than my S3 has been since I got it this fall.

Also, the TiVo is Cable Card crippled. No on-demand or pay per view (which doesn't really bother me... but I can see where this would be an issue for others). The inability to work with switched video (again, not an issue for me. Yet.) The good? I can can the Cable Co and just go with OTA if I should wish. Which is a viable option with OTA digital crystal clear clarity.

The big drawback for me is that the Program Guide on the 8300 only goes out 3 days. Otherwise, it's a damn good machine.

Face facts. TiVo has competition out there. And most people are going to go the cost-effective route of a Cable DVR.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Peter000 said:


> I take issue that the SA8300 is a "piece of junk," unreliable, etc. I'm a long time TiVo owner and fan.
> 
> I'm with TW in NYC, and I have both units the OP is talking about. Yeah, the interface isn't as elegant, but once you know where things are (how to search for a show, how to program the season pass and options, etc.), it's pretty easy to operate. It doesn't have wishlists (which I never use), nor suggestions (which I never use). It's very reliable recording programs. MORE reliable than my S3 has been since I got it this fall.
> 
> ...


I'm on NY cablevision and my coworker is on TW cable NY. We both had the same 8300 box and he even admitted mine was a piece of crap. TW cable runs different software on their box compared to cablevision. On cable vision, my season passes worked for the first 2 weeks and after that it started recording the wrong shows at the wrong time. You can't search for shows by name on cablevision. If it's not on the guide yet, you can't record it. It's why I dumped that horrible box for a series 3. My friend plans to do the same when the cost of an HD Tivo is low enough.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

If your friend were to ask me today whether or not to get the S3 in favor of the 8300, I'd honestly have a hard time promoting the TiVo. Even though I want to.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

Peter000 said:


> If your friend were to ask me today whether or not to get the S3 in favor of the 8300, I'd honestly have a hard time promoting the TiVo. Even though I want to.


I've had no problems with my Tivo. I have no use for pay for view (never use it) or for the switched digital foreign language channels on cablevision. (I don't speak the lanuage, why do I need them?) I lost nothing. As far as video on demand that is what I use iTunes for.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

I had the same 8300HD as Carlos. Technically my box was stable, but the software isn't very good and is frustrating to use at times. The TiVo is light years ahead of what the 8300 can provide. I still use mine but it's in the bedroom now so I can get digital channels and watch time shifted shows while in bed. It's interface is very "blocky" like something out of the 80's. It certainly doesn't look like the iO commercials you see on TV, nor is it very fast.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The huge problem I had with the 8300HD was that it would from time to time not record portions of a program. At first, I thought the cable was just going out for 10-20 minutes, but then I found that I could watch a show live with no problem, but then the recording of the same viewing would be short. That was the final straw that made me jump to the S3 the day it became available. I could live with the crappy interface and the short Guide Data and the lack of programming capabilities, but losing parts of shows, sometimes several in a week, was just unacceptable.

By the way, a friend and my father had the same box from the same company (then T-W, now Comcast) but in two different cable systems than mine, and both had the same problem.


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## lcann44 (Apr 15, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The huge problem I had with the 8300HD was that it would from time to time not record portions of a program. At first, I thought the cable was just going out for 10-20 minutes, but then I found that I could watch a show live with no problem, but then the recording of the same viewing would be short. That was the final straw that made me jump to the S3 the day it became available. I could live with the crappy interface and the short Guide Data and the lack of programming capabilities, but losing parts of shows, sometimes several in a week, was just unacceptable.
> 
> By the way, a friend and my father had the same box from the same company (then T-W, now Comcast) but in two different cable systems than mine, and both had the same problem.


+1.

I had partial recording problems. The recording light would show recording but it wasn't. I had SARA software on mine. I wonder why the OP didn't copy the whole article instead of just the conclusion?


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

lcann44 said:


> +1.
> 
> I had partial recording problems. The recording light would show recording but it wasn't. I had SARA software on mine. I wonder why the OP didn't copy the whole article instead of just the conclusion?


Partial recordings? I'm sure glad my $600 S3 doesn't do that. Oh, wait, nevermind: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=343790.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> Partial recordings? I'm sure glad my $600 S3 doesn't do that. Oh, wait, nevermind: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=343790.


Those problems are ALL caused by cablecard or cable signal issues, not the Tivo. The recording will only be 0 length if there is no signal on whatever tuner and channel it is trying to tune to.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

My SA8300HD does what it is supposed to almost perfectly--record TV shows. But that's ALL it does. No Season Pass management, no Wishlists, just no ability to fine-tune any settings. I have SPs setup to record most of the same OTA series I watch on my S3, but with the SA unit, you never know what it's *really* gonna do. For example, right now it thinks the next Ugly Betty it should record is Saturday night. Huh? Isn't UB on Thursdays? Sometimes it picks up a repeat instead of the first showing (and there are NO conflicts). Sometimes it *thinks* there's a recording when there isn't (like UB on Saturday). I end up deleting the recording, and creating a new SP. I do this at least 4-6 times a month, and I don't even have that many SPs on the SA. Maybe 10 or 12. The S3 has 34 SPs, and they WORK.

And when you ask it to cancel a recording of a show you have set as a SP, your only options are:
* Delete EVERY showing of this series (IOW, cancel the SP)
* never mind

That's it! No choice to just cancel ONE recording. It's all or none. I could go on and on, but my point is, the SA DVR is *not even remotely close* to a TiVo. It's a glorified time-shifter. And I will acknowledge that for many people, that's acceptable. But if you have used a TiVo, it is very hard to go back.

YMMV.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

astrohip said:


> And when you ask it to cancel a recording of a show you have set as a SP, your only options are:
> * Delete EVERY showing of this series (IOW, cancel the SP)
> * never mind
> 
> That's it! No choice to just cancel ONE recording. It's all or none.


This was my biggest gripe for the 8300 (running the SARA software from Adelphia, then TW). It was HORRIBLE.

Often I would end up deleting the entire SP by mistake and not notice until the following week when I would lose the next episode.

It was no better than my ReplayTV was... back in 1999.


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## MsUnderstood (Jun 1, 2004)

Peter000 said:


> Also, the TiVo is Cable Card crippled. No on-demand or pay per view (which doesn't really bother me... but I can see where this would be an issue for others). The inability to work with switched video (again, not an issue for me. Yet.) The good? I can can the Cable Co and just go with OTA if I should wish. Which is a viable option with OTA digital crystal clear clarity.


The limitation of the cable card for PPV and On-demand is the fault of the cable company not TIVO.

I spoke to a comcast tech and he said in my area they TRIED an update to the cable card for On Demand and it messed up all the cards (long day for them).

He also mentioned that his office has no way to test the cards to make sure the programming is good so it seems like cable companies aren't embracing the cards.

On another note, I take any article from PC Magazine with a grain of salt. . .too many advertisments mesh with the "best of products" for my taste.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> The limitation of the cable card for PPV and On-demand is the fault of the cable company not TIVO.


well, unfortunately, the tivo RELIES on the cable company for that stuff. You can blame the cable company all you want, but what it boils down to is this box cant do it. It really doesnt make a difference whose fault it is.


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## MsUnderstood (Jun 1, 2004)

If the cable company upgrades the cable cards to provide on demand or PPV then TIVO will have the capabilty. 

By saying you won't buy TIVO because TIVO doesn't offer the service is like blaming the grocery store for running out of milk because the dairy delivery didn't arrive.

Yea you can be mad at that grocery store, but if you go to the grocery store across the street, they won't have milk either. 

So if you were to buy a cable card ready Television, you wouldn't get PPV or On Demand either. Do you blame TIVO or the Television manufacturer for that as well?


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

The cable cards have nothing to do with the TiVO or a TV for not having PPV, On-demand etc... it's a hardware limitation of the device the cable cards are in.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> If the cable company upgrades the cable cards to provide on demand or PPV then TIVO will have the capabilty.


The tivo s3 will not support the new cablecards. Do a search on the boards, this has been discussed over and over. On demand, interactive guide, ordering ppv on the guide and switched digitial video is something the S3 will never handle. THeir new box coming out thats supposedly going to be cheaper and more geared for the mass market, you can hope will. They'd be stupid not to.

Any of these early adopters to cable cards including tv's, tivo, the media center pc's, will build their hardware to support the new standard. Any current cable card devices out there wont ever support the 2 way communication.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

davecramer74 said:


> The tivo s3 will not support the new cablecards. Do a search on the boards, this has been discussed over and over. On demand, interactive guide, ordering ppv on the guide and switched digitial video is something the S3 will never handle. THeir new box coming out thats supposedly going to be cheaper and more geared for the mass market, you can hope will. They'd be stupid not to.


And has been "discussed over and over", the cable companies have not agreed on a standard for PPV and SDV communication so TiVo would "be stupid" to implement any one scheme and expect it to work with all (or even most) cable companies. Worse yet, it's certain that individual franchises of companies like Comcast will have their own unique communication protocol for PPV and SDV, and there is no requirement that they make that protocol known to TiVo.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

What they would be stupid not to do is to include the appropriate hardware to communicate upstream, which is standard, AFAICT.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

wierdo said:


> What they would be stupid not to do is to include the appropriate hardware to communicate upstream, which is standard, AFAICT.


No, it is not a standard. There are proposed standards that as far as I know, no cable company has deployed in any fashion that they intend to be interoperable with software and hardware not owned by them. Given the length of time it's taken for them to deploy the agreed upon standard of cablecards, when do you expect deployment?


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

TostitoBandito said:


> Those problems are ALL caused by cablecard or cable signal issues, not the Tivo. The recording will only be 0 length if there is no signal on whatever tuner and channel it is trying to tune to.


Cablecard is part of the S3. If cablecards are not reliable (and they are not) the S3 as a product will also be affected.

I have run-flat tires on my car (no other option) and already had to replace 2 of them. Should I blame the tire company or the car manufacturer that chose to use this technology?

What really matters is the fact that there is a lot of people with cablecard problems and therefore they can't be happy with the S3. For those guys, maybe the terrible interface of 8300 , specially the SARA version, will be better than a S3 that doesn't work well.
It took me a full month to solve my cablecards problems. I had about 16 different cards but finally I can say everything is working well. NOt everybody can be that patient. I am a TiVo guy and love my S3, when it works.

For the records I was using cablecards before the S3 on my TV and had all sort of problems as well. I think Tivo did a lot to make CC more reliable .

Sergio


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

astrohip said:


> My SA8300HD does what it is supposed to almost perfectly--record TV shows. But that's ALL it does. No Season Pass management, no Wishlists, just no ability to fine-tune any settings. I have SPs setup to record most of the same OTA series I watch on my S3, but with the SA unit, you never know what it's *really* gonna do. *For example, right now it thinks the next Ugly Betty it should record is Saturday night. Huh? Isn't UB on Thursdays?* Sometimes it picks up a repeat instead of the first showing (and there are NO conflicts). *Sometimes it *thinks* there's a recording when there isn't (like UB on Saturday). I end up deleting the recording, and creating a new SP. I do this at least 4-6 times a month*, and I don't even have that many SPs on the SA. Maybe 10 or 12. The S3 has 34 SPs, and they WORK.
> 
> And when you ask it to cancel a recording of a show you have set as a SP, your only options are:
> * Delete EVERY showing of this series (IOW, cancel the SP)
> ...


Same thing happened to me with my SA box. Are you on cablevision? I wonder if it's their software.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

slimoli said:


> Cablecard is part of the S3. If cablecards are not reliable (and they are not) the S3 as a product will also be affected.
> 
> I have run-flat tires on my car (no other option) and already had to replace 2 of them. Should I blame the tire company or the car manufacturer that chose to use this technology?
> 
> ...


Cablecards are plenty reliable. The only time I have had any issues in 7+ months is when Comcast has screwed around with something on their end which would cause reception problems. It is the cable companies that don't know how to use or support them which is the problem. The hardware is sound. Remember, the cableco's definitely want to kill cablecard by any means necessary. Also keep in mind that in a couple months ALL new hardware rented out by cableco's is gonna use cablecards whether they like it or not (and they don't).


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> Same thing happened to me with my SA box. Are you on cablevision? I wonder if it's their software.


I found out [from experience] that the SA8300HD now keeps all series you have set to record in your TO DO list and if there are no upcoming episodes, it shows the next airing is "Saturday". When Saturday rolls around, it doesn't record it because the show's not really on. It just does this so you can go and modify the settings and/or delete that series.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

TostitoBandito said:


> Also keep in mind that in a couple months ALL new hardware rented out by cableco's is gonna use cablecards whether they like it or not (and they don't).


Not the same cablecard that we know. When I say cablecards are not reliable , I'm not only using my own experience. There are hundreds of reported problems with cablecards here in this board. It's a fact, not an opinion. If you never had a problem , you are the exception and not the rule.

Sergio


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Most of the problems with cablecards are caused by the cable companys' lack of familiarity with them. Once they are properly installed there usually aren't any more problems.


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## Testpattern (Dec 5, 2006)

snowjay said:


> The cable cards have nothing to do with the TiVO or a TV for not having PPV, On-demand etc... it's a hardware limitation of the device the cable cards are in.


True sort of... The cablecard hardware does include bidirectional capability, but absolutely no one in the industry has attempted to utilize it because of continuing protocol conflicts and debates on how to implement it. I believe the fear is going bidirectional would increase cablecard issues to an intolerable level. Most cable companies are content to sit on the sidelines and let evolution of the technology clean things up a bit before jumping in. For whatever reason, the cable companies are dragging their feet on accepting this technology which is evident by the fact they are providing virtually no training for their installation personnel.


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## seanc123 (Apr 10, 2007)

Please.

The user interface and controller on the SA are LAUGHABLY poor and clearly designed by an engineer and NOT a user interface designer.

The only person that could possibly prefer it are people that are very gear-headish and like lots of buttons on there controller or are obvious shills.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

davecramer74 said:


> well, unfortunately, the tivo RELIES on the cable company for that stuff. You can blame the cable company all you want, but what it boils down to is this box cant do it. It really doesnt make a difference whose fault it is.


Agreed.

And where is that link to the original article?

What a load of.................


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> And where is that link to the original article?


As far as I can tell:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2115175,00.asp

BTW, since the author is a Time Warner customer ... he is probably not using SARA. Based on his external hard drive comment ... sounds like Pioneer / Aptiv Passport. And, probably came with the promises of the soon-to-be delivered (in house developed) Navigator software.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

slimoli said:


> Not the same cablecard that we know. When I say cablecards are not reliable , I'm not only using my own experience. There are hundreds of reported problems with cablecards here in this board. It's a fact, not an opinion. If you never had a problem , you are the exception and not the rule.
> 
> Sergio


How is it not the same cablecard? Motorola just shipped several of its new cablecard-using DVR's to cable companies and they use EXACTLY the same cablecard as a Tivo S3 does. As I and many other people already said, the problem is not with the cablecards but with the cableco's who don't know how to use them. If you went and did a statistical analysis of those hundreds of reported problems, I promise user/cableco error would be the cause of the problem at least 75% of the time. Faulty hardware in the cablecards or problems with the Tivo hardware are relatively rare.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

After reading the article it appears he is giving up TiVo because he is cheap, not because the cable DVR is better.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

The thing about the new CableCARD cable boxes is that they do two way, so they can diagnose any problems that arise from the headend, so they probably still won't train the installers any better on CableCARD. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow automatically activate themselves in a two way device, presuming that the cards have already been entered into the system.

My Cox installer somehow registered all the cards he brought before he came out. He only had to read the last four digits of the cards to dispatch when he had to call in to activate them. Presumably a two-way CableCARD host could be made smart enough to send all the other data up to the headend, making for activation as simple as current boxes.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Kablemodem said:


> After reading the article it appears he is giving up TiVo because he is cheap, not because the cable DVR is better.


Which is understandable.

Personally, having quality is more important than having money, so I've never regretted my S3.

(Well, OK, I regretted it for a while, until I found out the problem was caused by the Harmony, not the TiVo!)


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## Testpattern (Dec 5, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which is understandable.
> 
> Personally, having quality is more important than having money, so I've never regretted my S3.
> 
> (Well, OK, I regretted it for a while, until I found out the problem was caused by the Harmony, not the TiVo!)


Let's see.... I can spend a few minutes counting my money or .... a great deal of time enjoying a quality experience.... let me think...

Very well put Rob...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

I have an S3, and I'm happy, and I'm thankful I don't have to count the pennies and tolerate the awful 3rd party DVRs. 

If we all counted the pennies, nobody would be happy. And happiness has a monetary value to ME.

Thatisall.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

TostitoBandito said:


> How is it not the same cablecard? Motorola just shipped several of its new cablecard-using DVR's to cable companies and they use EXACTLY the same cablecard as a Tivo S3 does. As I and many other people already said, the problem is not with the cablecards but with the cableco's who don't know how to use them. If you went and did a statistical analysis of those hundreds of reported problems, I promise user/cableco error would be the cause of the problem at least 75% of the time. Faulty hardware in the cablecards or problems with the Tivo hardware are relatively rare.


You are misunderstanding my comments or I am not being clear enough (more likely): Cablecard problem , as I understand, is not necessarily a hardware or software problem only. If my cable company doesn't know how to make the provisioning and activation correctly, as a user I think I have a "cablecard problem". You can say that 95 % of the cablecard problems are just the lack of skill on the cable companies engineers but my point is that it doesn't matter from the user point of view. He buys something and expects it to work flawlessly, period. Is it Tivo's fault? I don't think so but , again, doesn't matter. We are here discussing the S3 X 8300 from the user point of view. I stick to the S3 because I can't live with the 8300 interface. Some people can say they can't live with the "cablecard problems".

We are not judging the S3 as a piece of hardware. There is no question that it's far superior than the crappy 8300. We are talking about people who prefer not to deal with messages like "Error code 162" or "cablecard firmware upgrade that never ends" . I had the last one 4 times already and every time it happens the only thing I can do is to replace the cablecards. I don't think the motorola cards have the same problem and I don't think it happens with most of the cable companies.

Sergio


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

wierdo said:


> The thing about the new CableCARD cable boxes is that they do two way, so they can diagnose any problems that arise from the headend, so they probably still won't train the installers any better on CableCARD. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow automatically activate themselves in a two way device, presuming that the cards have already been entered into the system.
> 
> My Cox installer somehow registered all the cards he brought before he came out. He only had to read the last four digits of the cards to dispatch when he had to call in to activate them. Presumably a two-way CableCARD host could be made smart enough to send all the other data up to the headend, making for activation as simple as current boxes.


I don't think that I've seen it offically stated anywhere yet that the first generation of new Motorola hardware will support two-way functionality. I could have missed it I suppose, but if you have something official please link it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

astrohip said:


> And when you ask it to cancel a recording of a show you have set as a SP, your only options are:
> * Delete EVERY showing of this series (IOW, cancel the SP)
> * never mind
> 
> That's it! No choice to just cancel ONE recording. It's all or none.


I'm guessing you have the same software on it that I do then, because mine is the same way. Never could figure out how someone could think that was a good way to handle it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

article said:


> TiVo does many things well. But as HD went mainstream, TiVo chose to become irrelevant, pricing its Series 3 box so absurdly high$800that there's no way you can justify it over the free alternative from your cable company.


That free DVR would sure be nice. Where do I sign up?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

And it's always amusing to read idiotic crap like this:
http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004375859/1004375859/ShowThread.aspx#1004375859

"For much less than $800 you can build a PVR based on a PC platform, and use the excellent BeyondTV software from SnapStream. Heck, even though it's not HD, I am using an old Dell Dimension 8200 with 2 GB of memory, a Radeon 9550 card with S Video out, and an ATI Theatre 550 tuner card. I get free lifetime programming guide service"

Really? For less than what a Hi-Def TiVo costs (although not THAT much less if you actually count OS and PC costs) I can build a PC DVR that does not handle Hi-Def at all? What a deal!


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

TostitoBandito said:


> I don't think that I've seen it offically stated anywhere yet that the first generation of new Motorola hardware will support two-way functionality.


Recall that the "two way" functionality in their new set-top boxes does not *have* to have anything to do with CableCard. The "separability" requirement from the FCC is only for authentication/decryption, which one-way CableCard satisfies. Their boxes can continue to use whatever proprietary method they currently use for upstream communication, such as for VOD and switched-digital.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

CharlesH said:


> Recall that the "two way" functionality in their new set-top boxes does not *have* to have anything to do with CableCard. The "separability" requirement from the FCC is only for authentication/decryption, which one-way CableCard satisfies. Their boxes can continue to use whatever proprietary method they currently use for upstream communication, such as for VOD and switched-digital.


I am well aware of this but haven't seen any details of how they are doing it. I am assuming they will have some sort of upstream capability for VOD and PPV, but the person I was replying to mentioned it as if it was doing it via upstream cablecard implimentation.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

No, I mentioned it as if the unit would be able to communicate back to the headend, including sending debug information and slot/unit IDs and all that stuff back to the headend to make installation easier. That's got nothing to do with CableCARD, except that the box will have to have one.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Carlos_E said:


> Same thing happened to me with my SA box. Are you on cablevision? I wonder if it's their software.


Time Warner Houston, soon to be ComCast


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

Although Sascha Segan isn't a buffoon like some of the PC columnists it needs to be pointed out that he has never used the S3 and knows little about it so his comments on the SA8300HD are not a comparison (except in price).


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

slimoli said:


> Not the same cablecard that we know. When I say cablecards are not reliable , I'm not only using my own experience. There are hundreds of reported problems with cablecards here in this board. It's a fact, not an opinion. If you never had a problem , you are the exception and not the rule.
> 
> Sergio


Would you please explain the logic behind your statement? I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that "If you never had a problem , you are the exception and not the rule.".

Do you have a current list of *ALL* CC installations in the USA that shows the total amount of successful and unsuccessful installations?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Maybe he is referring to this  poll  ? According to the poll only 37% of the people never had a problem with install. I bet at least some of the "never had a problem" people had some kind of CC related problem after they posted a poll answer.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

samo said:


> Maybe he is referring to this  poll  ?


Maybe... but I still want to see the real world results, as this forum is not representative of all TiVo users.



samo said:


> According to the poll only 37% of the people never had a problem with install. I bet at least some of the "never had a problem" people had some kind of CC related problem after they posted a poll answer.


Again. This is an assumption...


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Maybe... but I still want to see the real world results, as this forum is not representative of all TiVo users.
> 
> .............
> 
> Again. This is an assumption...


It is. But since "real world results" are not available to general public, this is as good as it gets. Can you link ANY poll, regardless how un-scientific it is, that shows that majority of S3 users don't have any problems with CC? I bet you don't. So don't knock the guy down just because his opinion is different from yours. Put up the information that has "real world results" supporting your opinion or ... (you can guess the rest of the sentence).


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## seattlewendell (Jan 11, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> I take issue that the SA8300 is a "piece of junk," unreliable, etc. I'm a long time TiVo owner and fan.
> 
> I'm with TW in NYC, and I have both units the OP is talking about. Yeah, the interface isn't as elegant, but once you know where things are (how to search for a show, how to program the season pass and options, etc.), it's pretty easy to operate. It doesn't have wishlists (which I never use), nor suggestions (which I never use). It's very reliable recording programs. MORE reliable than my S3 has been since I got it this fall.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. I love my Tivo and hate every cable DVR I have ever used. I currently have the moto craptastic box as well as my Tivo. Recently I visited a friend in New York City with a SA8300 with Time Warner. This is an extremely impression box. First of all it seems to have as much if not more hard drive space as the S3. The interface is extremely smooth. It seems they took the approach that if they couldn't make the feature as good as Tivo they would just leave it out. This was very very smart. It means it has less features than an S3 but at least it's not a piece of junk like the moto boxes. From doing a little research it seems the TW SA has a somewhat custom interface. However it was done it is impressive.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

as for calling cablecards unreliable, that may be true but it seems to me that most problems are caused by the lack training given to the cable technicians and whoever is on the other end of the phone when the techcall or when we call.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

seattlewendell said:


> I totally agree. I love my Tivo and hate every cable DVR I have ever used. I currently have the moto craptastic box as well as my Tivo. Recently I visited a friend in New York City with a SA8300 with Time Warner. This is an extremely impression box. First of all it seems to have as much if not more hard drive space as the S3. The interface is extremely smooth. It seems they took the approach that if they couldn't make the feature as good as Tivo they would just leave it out. This was very very smart. It means it has less features than an S3 but at least it's not a piece of junk like the moto boxes. From doing a little research it seems the TW SA has a somewhat custom interface. However it was done it is impressive.


Once again... it comes down to the software. I have that same box, the SA8300HD, but from Cox with the SARA software. It stinks to high heaven. They have basically taken the regular cable box interface and crammed in a barely functioning DVR interface on it (the equivalent of the "now playing" list, for example, is channel 800...)

So if you're talking about cable DVRs, even the same model of the box, you need to mention what kind of software it's running, otherwise it's a meaningless comparison.


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## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

Wow, the depth of delusion on this forum is unbelievable. Its the fault of the cable industry! Cable cards are to blame! If you don't have an S3 you're cheap!

Please. I have 2 TiVos and the 8300 HD DVR box from cablevision. Is the 8300 as elegant as a TiVo? No, but it lets me record shows to watch in HD without having to spend $800. And that's the author's only point, which he happens to be correct about. The 8300 DOES have season passes, although they don't call it that, and it has 2 tuners. It does not have Tivo-to-go, which I think is terrific, but (from what I've heard) neither does the S3. Simply put, TiVo's strenths are enormous, but without HD capability the Series 2 is useless. And $800 plus $12.95/mo. just to get HD is absolutely ridiculous.

TiVo's pricing strategy compared to the cable companies has relegated the S3 to a nitch product financially out of the reach of 99% of consumers. I love TiVo, but at the rate its headed, it will never be a commercially successful product.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

KJW said:


> TiVo's pricing strategy compared to the cable companies has relegated the S3 to a nitch product financially out of the reach of 99% of consumers. I love TiVo, but at the rate its headed, it will never be a commercially successful product.


These same consumers pay MUCH more than the $800 the series 3 costs (though it can be had for $600 most everywhere now) for their Hi-Def sets. There is no reason why TiVo shouldn't be able to convince many of them to use their hi-def recorded instead of the one from the cable company.

But as usual, TiVo is unable to sell their stuff.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

KJW said:


> TiVo's pricing strategy compared to the cable companies has relegated the S3 to a nitch product financially out of the reach of 99% of consumers. I love TiVo, but at the rate its headed, it will never be a commercially successful product.


The S3 was not intended for the average conumer. It was always marketed as a high end niche product. TiVo is working on a less expensive HD TiVo, which I guess will be in the $200 range.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

KJW said:


> Wow, the depth of delusion on this forum is unbelievable. Its the fault of the cable industry! Cable cards are to blame! If you don't have an S3 you're cheap!


Yes ... the black / white ... no middle ground ... red state / blue state stuff does get rather inane at times.


KJW said:


> I love TiVo, but at the rate its headed, it will never be a commercially successful product.


Oh ... never mind.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

KJW said:


> And $800 plus $12.95/mo. just to get HD is absolutely ridiculous.


You mean $600 plus $6.95/mo?

BTW, I tried Cox's Motorola DVR, which is running Passport Echo. It was good enough that I was able to stand it for a couple of weeks. The hard drive, being only 160GB was stupidly small, though. Nearing useless for me, really. The S3's 250GB was barely big enough, so I put a $120 500GB disk in there and now I'm reasonably happy.

One of my biggest irritations about the Passport software is that it would record the same episodes of things over and over and over again, wasting space and tuner time. Additionally, it would fairly regularly cut off shows in the middle of recording for no apparent reason, although that was less of a problem due to the aforementioned recording the same thing over and over and over again, at least for shows that weren't on broadcast nets. One of the worst things is that it would almost daily show me parts of shows I didn't want to see, sometimes ruining the ending because the video and audio play in the guide and when selecting shows to watch and all the time. If the pause button worked in any of the menus, it wouldn't have been a problem, but it didn't. And to add insult to injury, it would often take 30 seconds for the thing to exit the menu or guide before I could hit the pause button and stop the infernal thing from giving away the ending to the show.

The 3416 running Passport does, however, have one feature that owns the TiVo, and that's the 1 hour per tuner Live TV buffer.

Being a long time TiVo user, I'm not really bothered by the lack of TTG and MRV. I simply didn't use them enough on my S2s to care. What does bother me is the inability to make a wishlist that prefers or limits itself to only HD showings. Wishlists are incredibly handy when you have a huge number of SPs and ARWLs, since they will record the show from any channel it airs on, which makes for much less manual conflict resolution.

Now that I don't have to think about recording things any more than I choose to, I'm happy. I still have the 3416, but I think it's going back soon, as it costs $15.24 a month. It is nice having 4 HD tuners, but I don't think I want to continue giving the cable company $170 a month.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

samo said:


> It is. But since "real world results" are not available to general public, this is as good as it gets. Can you link ANY poll, regardless how un-scientific it is, that shows that majority of S3 users don't have any problems with CC? I bet you don't. So don't knock the guy down just because his opinion is different from yours. Put up the information that has "real world results" supporting your opinion or ... (you can guess the rest of the sentence).


You should reread my posts. I didn't offer an opinion. I challenged the validity of an unscientific poll, but more importantly, I challenged the interpretation of that poll. The interpretation is pasted below, in bold, for your convenience...



> Not the same cablecard that we know. When I say cablecards are not reliable , I'm not only using my own experience. There are hundreds of reported problems with cablecards here in this board. *It's a fact, not an opinion. If you never had a problem , you are the exception and not the rule.*


Let's see. Hundreds of people here on the forums have had a problem with CableCARDs, and the original poster had a problem, so that means that *everyone* has a problem?

I can definitely get behind that kind of logic


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

KJW said:


> Wow, the depth of delusion on this forum is unbelievable. Its the fault of the cable industry! Cable cards are to blame! If you don't have an S3 you're cheap!


It is accurate that cable card technology conflicts with the market imperatives of cable companies. It is also true that the cable industry designed cable card technology and the specification that third party vendors are legally required to observe.

Let's set aside the "delusional" banter, and just look at it mechanically from the self interest of content providers. Why is it reasonable to assume that cable companies should not use cablecards as a weapon against competitors? They have substantial motive and equally substantial means.

Americans generally believe in fair play. Why is there any surprize that there is outrage about these sorts of shenanigans?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I always suspect something other than a comparison of operability, software, or reliability when someone is leaving TiVo for something else. I have never used the SA8300, but I currently use the Comcast Motorolla DCT6412III and it isn't comparable to TiVo although I can make it work acceptably. I like having firewire so I am staying with it but I hope TiVo software just magically shows up on it some morning.

Chris


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## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> It is accurate that cable card technology conflicts with the market imperatives of cable companies. It is also true that the cable industry designed cable card technology and the specification that third party vendors are legally required to observe.
> 
> Let's set aside the "delusional" banter, and just look at it mechanically from the self interest of content providers. Why is it reasonable to assume that cable companies should not use cablecards as a weapon against competitors? They have substantial motive and equally substantial means.
> 
> Americans generally believe in fair play. Why is there any surprize that there is outrage about these sorts of shenanigans?


I am not saying there are not problems with Cablecards, or even that cable companies are purposely not supporting cablecards to get people to use their products. However, this is not some great revalation -- cablecards did not work long before the S3. This is a Tivo forum and, because cable companies control cablecards and are in the dominant position, it is incumbant upon Tivo to offer a product that is attractive in spite of these problems.

More importantly, however, a consumer's purchase decision never reaches consideration of the operability of cabelcards. Simply comparingt he up-front costs is enough to dissuade 99% of consumers. That is Tivo's fault, not the cablecard companies, and that is what I am mad about.

Come on Tivo, let's have a decently priced HD DVR that does not have crippled TTG.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

KJW said:


> Please. I have 2 TiVos and the 8300 HD DVR box from cablevision. <snip> And $800 plus $12.95/mo. just to get HD is absolutely ridiculous.


Everyone values their time, money and desires differently. I also have two TiVos and an SA8300HD, paid $650 for my S3, and no monthly fees. And it was worth every penny to get the HD experience thru the TiVo UI. The SA unit is barely tolerable. But not everyone watches TV the same way. My wife is the primary user of the SA, and it's "ok" for her. She'd rather have a TiVo, but for what she does--glorified time shifting--it works. OTOH, I use dozens of SPs, Wishlists, have huge conflict management issues--all of which the S3 handles beautifully. The SA8300HD can't *begin* to do any of these things. YMMV.

I also pay $3.50/month for my two cable cards, versus $13.95/month for the SA. So I even save a little dinero every month. Icing on the cake :up:


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

KJW said:


> This is a Tivo forum and, because cable companies control cablecards and are in the dominant position, it is incumbant upon Tivo to offer a product that is attractive in spite of these problems.
> .....
> Come on Tivo, let's have a decently priced HD DVR that does not have crippled TTG.


Did you forget to leave out that TivoToGo, MRV and external SATA support is being blocked by Cablelabs- an entity owned and operated by the cable companies?

Name a third party DVR better priced than the S3. Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony, Pioneer, Phillips? If Tivo is so incompetent, then is Panasonic, Sony etc. all the more so because they haven't a fraction of the market penetration as Tivo?

Third party manufacturers have found that the engineering is necessarily complex (expensive). They have found that it is illegal to construct boxes with the design approach of SA and Moto boxes with integrated security. Why did all those companies discover the same thing? Maybe because it is true. And who exactly came up with this cockamamie idea that the only way to build a competitor to a Cableco DVR would be to include circuitry and software to support two cards- cards that can't do the two way communication that the Cableco device does unless they add a heap more of expensive components.

So let's see. The other CE companies are no show at the DVR party. Tivo has the balls to show up, and folks want to kick them there for not realizing that their present is not attractive enough.

Further, the people who point out how the game is being played are portrayed as delusional.

Huh. Well- fine. Do what you think is right. If you want to worship at the altar of monopolists, that's your business. After all, the monopolists were genius enough to figure out how attractive "free" presents can be.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> Did you forget to leave out that TivoToGo, MRV and external SATA support is being blocked by Cablelabs- an entity owned and operated by the cable companies?


You do NOT know that; it is pure speculation. It is equally possible that Tivo either screwed something up or made deliberate decisions which significantly delayed the approval process (or hasn't applied at all). Nobody outside of those two organizations knows for sure. Also keep in mind that it is Tivo's job to develop these features according to the rules put in place by Cablelabs, and they knew that well before the S3 was released. I personally don't believe Cablelabs would arbitrarily approve these features in cableco devices and reject them in 3rd party devices, since there could be huge legal ramifications for them if they were to do that. The versions of these things which are getting approved are clearly implimented differently than the way Tivo has proposed (if they even have).


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Not speculation. And it isn't just Tivo they are blocking. Sony and Intel are appealing to the FCC CableLabs' block on DHCP-IP.

If you were in the CableCo's shoes, why give your competitors a break? 

CableLabs is a weapon of the Cablecos- nothing more. That's why the CEA advocates that CableLabs' power be trimmed to only excluding devices that can be shown to physically harm the cableco networks or compromise the security of the delivery of programming on their network.


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## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Did you forget to leave out that TivoToGo, MRV and external SATA support is being blocked by Cablelabs- an entity owned and operated by the cable companies?
> 
> Name a third party DVR better priced than the S3. Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony, Pioneer, Phillips? If Tivo is so incompetent, then is Panasonic, Sony etc. all the more so because they haven't a fraction of the market penetration as Tivo?
> 
> ...


Who said TiVo was incompetent? Not me. They have a fantastic product, they just don't have a very good business model. And I don't want to "worship at the alter of monopolists" (unless they can offer some really cool afterlife to look forward to). I, like 99% of consumers, just want a reasonably priced HD DVR. Cableco blocking TTG and making life difficult for cablecard users? Don't care. Other CE companies ignoring the DVR market while Tivo fights the goliath cable monopoly? Yawn. And as for a Tivo being a "present" -- an $800, $12.95 per month present -- well, delusional has just reached a new plateau.

You are probably right in everything you say (except for Tivo being a "present"), but so what? If Tivo is to survive, they need to offer a low cost HD box that will appeal to the masses and can complete with the DVR's being offered by cable companies. There is no debating this. That was the point of the original article that inspired this thread, and I agree 100%.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

KJW said:


> Who said TiVo was incompetent? ...they just don't have a very good business model. ... Other CE companies ignoring the DVR market while Tivo fights the goliath cable monopoly? Yawn.


Well, you are falling asleep then. Because it is the key question. If Tivo's business model is so screwed up, why couldn't genius companies like Sony, Panasonic etc etc figure it out. You simply have to confront this question, not avoid it.

You say you agree 100% with the article. Did you agree with this little bit?



> But that's what happens when there's no free market. Cable companies have succeeded in cowing set-top-box manufacturers and crippling the CableCARD effort, so you must either pick the set-top box your cable provider sponsors, go for TiVo's luxury option, or get an even more expensive CableCARD PC.


Since you agree 100%, how do you propose that we get a free market in the DVR business?


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

That's super easy. Make the cable company's lease rates for the DVR boxes more in line with what it actually costs for them to buy them and develop the software for them. They cost over $600, IIRC, possibly closer to $800, I don't specifically remember. They're certainly costing the cable company over $10 a month. Mine, at least, is charging $5.25 a month for the box and $9.99 a month for the service.

Even if you consider the service part of the cost of the box itself and not the cost of developing the software to run on it and consider the software free, they're still probably not charging enough to make up the cost of the box. They're dumping, plain and simple, but they get to do that, since there's supposedly competition from the satellite providers. Those of us who can't see the satellites be damned.


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## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

wierdo said:


> That's super easy. Make the cable company's lease rates for the DVR boxes more in line with what it actually costs for them to buy them and develop the software for them. They cost over $600, IIRC, possibly closer to $800, I don't specifically remember. They're certainly costing the cable company over $10 a month. Mine, at least, is charging $5.25 a month for the box and $9.99 a month for the service.
> 
> Even if you consider the service part of the cost of the box itself and not the cost of developing the software to run on it and consider the software free, they're still probably not charging enough to make up the cost of the box. They're dumping, plain and simple, but they get to do that, since there's supposedly competition from the satellite providers. Those of us who can't see the satellites be damned.


Actually, when you amortize the development costs over the number of boxes being leased across all cable companies that use the boxes, even with the hardware costs, I think the cable companies and the box manufacturers are making a tidy profit. But you raise the real problem -- unlike the cable companies, Tivo does not have enough customers over whom to spread the cost suffiicently such that the boxes can be sold for a reasonable price. Tivo has obviously done the analysis and cannot justfy a reasonable price because the user growth would not support it. That's the real problem.

People can complain about the market realities all they want, it doesn't matter. Neither you, I, nor Tivo can change the economics. Tivo either finds a way to survive in the current marketplace or it doesn't. Simple as that.


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## KJW (Sep 27, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Well, you are falling asleep then. Because it is the key question. If Tivo's business model is so screwed up, why couldn't genius companies like Sony, Panasonic etc etc figure it out. You simply have to confront this question, not avoid it.


You have hit the nail on the head. There is no way for an independent DVR product to successfully compete given the advantages the cable companies have. That is exactly why the other CE companies have left the American market (do Toshiba and Sony even make DVR's for sale in the US anymore)? Tivo's future is in licensing its software to cable companies, like the Comcast deal. I think people will pay a premium for the Tivo brand service.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> As far as I can tell:
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2115175,00.asp
> 
> BTW, since the author is a Time Warner customer ... he is probably not using SARA. Based on his external hard drive comment ... sounds like Pioneer / Aptiv Passport. And, probably came with the promises of the soon-to-be delivered (in house developed) Navigator software.


This link does connect to the article. I get PC Magazine as a download from Zinio but this matches.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

KJW said:


> Actually, when you amortize the development costs over the number of boxes being leased across all cable companies that use the boxes, even with the hardware costs, I think the cable companies and the box manufacturers are making a tidy profit. But you raise the real problem -- unlike the cable companies, Tivo does not have enough customers over whom to spread the cost suffiicently such that the boxes can be sold for a reasonable price. Tivo has obviously done the analysis and cannot justfy a reasonable price because the user growth would not support it. That's the real problem.
> 
> People can complain about the market realities all they want, it doesn't matter. Neither you, I, nor Tivo can change the economics. Tivo either finds a way to survive in the current marketplace or it doesn't. Simple as that.


The boxes themselves have a fixed cost, more customers doesn't mean cheaper boxes.

Most cable customers don't have DVRs, and the software "market" for cable DVRs is sufficiently fragmented that I doubt there is really the economy of scale that one might think at first glance.

I would bet that they are in fact losing money on DVRs up to this point, certainly on the boxes for the companies that are charging so little for the box and so much for the "service," which is, of course, the exact same service they give to all their other boxes.

They might be making money if you factor in VOD PPV purchases..maybe.

Edited to add: If I'm right and the cable companies are indeed dumping DVRs on the market below cost, there is certainly something that can be done about it. That's against the law..of course, I doubt our current Administration would bother to do anything about it.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> After reading the article it appears he is giving up TiVo because he is cheap, not because the cable DVR is better.


Yes, for me money is a big factor. I have three Scientific Atlanta boxes running for $ 33 per month total for ALL three versus one Tivo for $ 1,000 ($ 800 plus the $ 200 upgrade in my S2 Lifetime Sub).

In addition, personally I find the SA interface BETTER than the TiVo interface since I get to watch TV in a PIP while I search for new programs to watch. With TiVo, my explorations meant NO TV at all for hours. It is true that Tivo give me 2 weeks in advance of scheduling to one week for the SA.

However, if one goes to http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ one can get the same searching and exploration possibilities as Tivo supplies.

Also the SA Remote has two PROGRAMMABLE buttons not available on the TiVo remote. I have programmed one to go to my Video On Demand automatically and the other to go back one minute in time on the program versus the hard coded 8 second reverse button.

Finally, my Video On Demand can be started on one of my three HD TV's and then continued from the bookmark on the other 2. I sometimes start a program in my TV room and finish it in my bedroom. Tivo doesn't even offer Video On Demand at all.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

MitchW said:


> In addition, personally I find the SA interface BETTER than the TiVo interface since I get to watch TV in a PIP while I search for new programs to watch. With TiVo, my explorations meant NO TV at all for hours. It is true that Tivo give me 2 weeks in advance of scheduling to one week for the SA.
> 
> However, if one goes to http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ one can get the same searching and exploration possibilities as Tivo supplies.


Well none of the above is completely true. Since you are using a website anyway to find your programs, you could just uses TiVos and schedule them online while still being able to watch TV.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

snowjay said:


> Well none of the above is completely true. Since you are using a website anyway to find your programs, you could just uses TiVos and schedule them online while still being able to watch TV.


Almost all my exploration for new programs takes place while I watch TV on my SA's. Only occasionally do I go online for more programs.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I noticed you declined to answer the question: "how do you propose that we get a free market in the DVR business?"


KJW said:


> People can complain about the market realities all they want, it doesn't matter. Neither you, I, nor Tivo can change the economics. Tivo either finds a way to survive in the current marketplace or it doesn't. Simple as that.


On the contrary, albiet at a glacial pace, the FCC is changing the economics with the authority of the 1996 Telecom act.

I suspect that congress and a future administration will have a fresh perspective on the relationship of Cableco monopolies to free markets- maybe even shift the priorities of the FCC from policing foul language to policing indecency in corporate practices.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

MitchW said:


> Almost all my exploration for new programs takes place while I watch TV on my SA's. Only occasionally do I go online for more programs.


Thats fair. I misunderstood what you wrote, meaning you do that all the time.

I thought I'd miss that feature too on my SA. But when I thought about it I usually got too engrossed in trying to find my program that I really tuned out what was playing anyway. And since I can do online scheduling it's a good alternative.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MitchW said:


> Yes, for me money is a big factor. I have three Scientific Atlanta boxes running for $ 33 per month total for ALL three versus one Tivo for $ 1,000 ($ 800 plus the $ 200 upgrade in my S2 Lifetime Sub).
> 
> In addition, personally I find the SA interface BETTER than the TiVo interface since I get to watch TV in a PIP while I search for new programs to watch. With TiVo, my explorations meant NO TV at all for hours. It is true that Tivo give me 2 weeks in advance of scheduling to one week for the SA.
> 
> ...


Hmm, your expectations must be different than mine. I have both SA and TiVo, and take part in many threads about the two. I can't recall one person who said they actually like the SA better. Usually it's money, or PPV, or VOD. But to actually like the SA UI better? Wonders never cease! 

The PIP guide is handy, I like it too. But only for a quick in & out. I can't imagine using it for very long, AND trying to watch a program. That means my 40" LCD now plays a 4" square picture?

And while your VOD can start/stop in any room at the same point, you can't even do this on the same unit for a recorded show. One of my biggest gripes about the SA is no bookmarks. Try watching a movie, come back the next night to finish it, and you have to start at the beginning. And no skip-to-tick to speed it up either.

Yeah, I love my SA8300HD UI, if love means "I hate it".


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

TostitoBandito said:


> You do NOT know that; it is pure speculation. It is equally possible that Tivo either screwed something up or made deliberate decisions which significantly delayed the approval process (or hasn't applied at all). Nobody outside of those two organizations knows for sure. Also keep in mind that it is Tivo's job to develop these features according to the rules put in place by Cablelabs, and they knew that well before the S3 was released. I personally don't believe Cablelabs would arbitrarily approve these features in cableco devices and reject them in 3rd party devices, since there could be huge legal ramifications for them if they were to do that. The versions of these things which are getting approved are clearly implimented differently than the way Tivo has proposed (if they even have).


Cable supplied boxes have never been CableLabs approved. They will not be until/if the cable companies ever start using cablecards. Even then, what makes you think that CableLabs would not approve Cable supplied boxes automatically? CableLabs is owned by the cable companies.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

It was my understanding that all new boxes they introduce, starting this July, HAVE to be CableCard based. And since they're made by 3rd parties (Moto, Pana, SciAtl etc) they DO need approval. Just because they're distributed by the CableCos shouldn't earn them automatic approval.

And this, it has hoped, will be a good thrust to force their hand into providing a means for the 2way comm.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

astrohip said:


> And while your VOD can start/stop in any room at the same point, you can't even do this on the same unit for a recorded show. One of my biggest gripes about the SA is no bookmarks. Try watching a movie, come back the next night to finish it, and you have to start at the beginning. And no skip-to-tick to speed it up either.
> 
> Yeah, I love my SA8300HD UI, if love means "I hate it".


Almost ALL movies and series on HBO, SHO, STRZ and MAX are available on VOD. Thus, they don't have to be recorded from an exhausting exploration of the future schedules. They have the built in multiroom bookmark available. I do record programs from the History Channel and Military Channel from the future schedules. I can hit "Stop" and the total minutes and minutes played are displayed. I record this on a TV Paper Pad I keep near the TV's. Then I can use their 4 Speed Fast Forward or Backward (they have 1 to 4 speeds available forward and backward and one can start at beginning or end) to get almost IMMEDIATELY to where I left off to the minute.

By the way Season Passes have 4 options: only new episodes at any time, same time on one day of the week, same time every day of the week, all episodes at any time. I don't remember if Tivo offers these 4 options.

Finally, I believe that in mid-May there will be a Cable Hardware Show in Las Vegas. I am pretty sure that both Tivo and Scientific Atlanta will have new products to display there. I am still open to the Tivo alternative since I have one S2 with the available upgrade option to an S3 available. So far I am just holding that S2 unused in my crawl space to await its possible use in an upgrade of my Lifetime Subscription. However, since I need THREE units for HD TV's, cost and features will be determinative. I am willing to pay a SMALL premium for Tivo since I did enjoy its features in the past when SA had no comparable hardware available through my Cable Provider, Charter.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

ashu said:


> It was my understanding that all new boxes they introduce, starting this July, HAVE to be CableCard based. And since they're made by 3rd parties (Moto, Pana, SciAtl etc) they DO need approval. Just because they're distributed by the CableCos shouldn't earn them automatic approval.


Why would they need to be Cablecard-approved? Can't anyone can build a device that works with cablecards? The approval just means that cablecos have to support such devices on their system. It's not likely that they won't support their own devices.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

They have to go through the process, but Moto and SA are building boxes to cable company specifications, they aren't building anything that threaten cable company businesses, and so- hey- what a shock. No approval delay.

MCards- the specification was public in what was it- 2003? Same time as the SCard. Why didn't they approve it at the same time as the SCard? How long did it take to approve MCards? Oh- only until when it looked like Cable companies would need them for their own devices. Promises were made to deliver them last summer so they would be ready in time for Tivo S3 and Vista launches last fall. Could they have done so? Probably. But why should cablelabs help competitors get to market faster with innovations? It is simply naive of the FCC to believe that cablelabs will do anything that is not in the business interests of its owners. 

Cablecompanies are complaining that equivalent cablecard enabled devices will cost 3 times more to build. Huh. I guess they shouldn't have designed cablecards the way they did. The cost simply didn't bother them as long as it was competitors who had to pay it, and not them. 


Why not bypass them? You can't do it legally. A cablecard device is known as a Host and for you to sell one, you need to sign the Cablecard Host License (CHILA). The CEA claims that these legal agreements allow Cablelabs to evaluate and block innovations that have nothing to do with insuring cable company network security, and are asking the FCC to strip Cablelabs of its power.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

MitchW said:


> Almost ALL movies and series on HBO, SHO, STRZ and MAX are available on VOD. Thus, they don't have to be recorded from an exhausting exploration of the future schedules. They have the built in multiroom bookmark available. I do record programs from the History Channel and Military Channel from the future schedules. I can hit "Stop" and the total minutes and minutes played are displayed. I record this on a TV Paper Pad I keep near the TV's. Then I can use their 4 Speed Fast Forward or Backward (they have 1 to 4 speeds available forward and backward and one can start at beginning or end) to get almost IMMEDIATELY to where I left off to the minute.
> 
> By the way Season Passes have 4 options: only new episodes at any time, same time on one day of the week, same time every day of the week, all episodes at any time. I don't remember if Tivo offers these 4 options.


Does Charter's VOD have the movies in HD, or are you content watching them in pan & scan? Cox seems to have a few movies available in wide screen, but they're almost all p&s, and absolutely no HD whatsoever.

Sounds like that DVR pretty much sucks. Is it stupid enough to record the same episodes over and over again like mine is? One of my favorite things about TiVo is that it won't waste my disk space recording the same crap repeatedly. With the 3416 running Passport, it was impossible, without significant handholding, to keep a couple weeks' episodes of an HD show on something like PBS or Discovery HD, unless you only wanted brand new episodes. If you wanted the reruns, you'd get 8 shows a week wasting your hard drive space and pushing off the previous week's episode.

It sounds like you expend significant effort to work around the shortcomings of the cable DVR.

After the integration ban takes effect, I'll probably swap out my 3416 for a non-DVR HD box, so I'll still be able to watch VOD, in the hopes that someday they'll get some HD content on it. There are, after all, some movies on there from time to time that aren't showing on the regular premiums, along with some other relatively interesting content.

As far as recording future movies, it's pretty simple to check the schedule on the computer and find out what's coming up this month and search by title for it on the TiVo and schedule it (or even better, schedule it online). Usually, I just make wishlists for actors and directors I like to see and let the TiVo sort it out.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> Does Charter's VOD have the movies in HD, or are you content watching them in pan & scan? Cox seems to have a few movies available in wide screen, but they're almost all p&s, and absolutely no HD whatsoever.


well one thing on comcast is all the planet earth stuff is in HD and on demand. So that saves me so far, 10 hours of HD recording on my DVR. I can just goto on demand if i want ot watch it.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

wierdo said:


> Does Charter's VOD have the movies in HD, or are you content watching them in pan & scan? Cox seems to have a few movies available in wide screen, but they're almost all p&s, and absolutely no HD whatsoever.


The Charter SA8300HD has four modes: Normal, Stretch, Zoom1 and Zoom2. It broadcasts in 1080i in all modes. If a show is in native HD, I use Normal Mode. If it has two side bars, I watch in Normal Mode if the show is an interview or news program. If it has two side bars, I watch in Stretch Mode if it is a documentary or history program. If it has two side bars AND a bottom and top bar, I watch it in Zoom1 Mode which is the equivalent of HD in Normal Mode. Zoom2 Mode DOUBLES the viewing of a HD screen on the center. It could be used to read a document onscreen or focus on a play during an athletic event. I have not yet used the Zoom2 Mode.

VOD, PPV and regular broadcasts come in all varieties and I use the proper Mode to watch it correctly. Most VOD movies come with the top, bottom and side bars which require Zoom1 Mode to restore to true HD viewing. Picture quality is exactly the same with HD in Normal Mode and 4 bars viewed in Zoom1 Mode. Also, ALL of my movies are available in VOD so I don't have to explore the schedule 24/7 way out in advance. In addition PPV is available for RECENT RELEASES usually for only $ 3.95 each. VOD cannot be saved to my disk but can be viewed with multi-room bookmarks. PPV can be saved to disk as I understand the manual but I have not yet tried it.

I will give TiVo the credit that their documentation was superb for the S2 with their PDF files online. With the SA I have discovered all these features by individual experimentation. I have not seen detailed PDF files explaining all this. Thus, the learning curve for the SA is higher than it is for the TiVo. However, in my opinion, the SA is a BETTER device for MY USES than the TiVo and substantially cheaper since I require THREE DEVICES. In fact the price of a TiVo now is the SAME as one 32" HD TV.

How does the TiVo S3 adopt to all these broadcast variations? Does it have the capability of the four Scientific Atlanta Modes?


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

So they have some WS 4:3 material, which you zoom to full screen and some plain 4:3 material on VOD.

The S3 has three Aspect modes, Panel, Zoom, and Full. Since it can be configured to output in native mode (it can be set to pass through whatever the signal actually is), the Aspect modes don't have much use. Oddly, in Native mode, you have to use "Full" to keep it from squishing a 4:3 show.

Basically, if your set lacks proper zooming or support for all video modes, it does an adequate job of keeping the aspect ratio on letterboxed material and pillarboxing appropriately when viewing 4:3 material.

I like having the TiVo set to 4:3 smart screen and native mode, and just using the TV's zoom. The only downside is that doing so shrinks the size of the OSD to fit it within the picture area on 4:3 material.

Edited to add: The cable company DVRs are certainly _cheaper_ than TiVo. I doubt anyone has ever said otherwise, but they're vastly superior to the DVRs unless you only use them as glorified VCRs or use VOD extensively, as you do.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

wierdo said:


> So they have some WS 4:3 material, which you zoom to full screen and some plain 4:3 material on VOD.
> 
> The S3 has three Aspect modes, Panel, Zoom, and Full. Since it can be configured to output in native mode (it can be set to pass through whatever the signal actually is), the Aspect modes don't have much use. Oddly, in Native mode, you have to use "Full" to keep it from squishing a 4:3 show.
> 
> ...


From what you tell me, the four SA8300HD Modes give far greater flexibility in viewing than the three Tivo S3 Aspect Modes. I can switch the SA Modes by pressing the "#" key on the SA Remote. Can the TiVo Aspect Modes also be switched by using one button on the TiVo Remote?


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## ivyvine420 (Mar 14, 2007)

MitchW said:


> How does the TiVo S3 adopt to all these broadcast variations? Does it have the capability of the four Scientific Atlanta Modes?


I have a HDTV (37 inch LCD) that does up to 1080i. I have my TV set to always upconvert when possible to 1080i and to use widescreen (I can't remember right now if it has more indepth resolution/format settings or not as I just never change them or use the zoom feature).

I have the Tivo Series 3 set to use Widescreen 16:9 picture viewing, the 1080i ONLY (always upconverts) settings and to use the "FULL" setting so that (like the other person said) the TV actually shows non-widescreen shows filling up the whole screen without ending up with the black (or grey, if you choose) bars on the sides of the screen... To choose "ZOOM" would mean that you would lose some areas of the screen when it enlarges it to fill the entire space, and the "FULL" setting kinda just takes the sides and stretches them out (leaving the very edges more "stretched" than the middle to preserve picture quality as best a possible) but this can cause a more distorted picture (though I have to say that I have not yet noticed any change in picture, while using it myself, at all).

There is the potential for bad picture, but seems to work pretty darn good generally, though I would guess that this would have to do alot with your TV itself and how good it can handle the different changes and convertings of formats and sizes etc... You can change the settings through the tivo settings menu area, or use the aspect button on the remote, but I wouldn't think that you would really need to do any of that at all with your general TV watching (and it's easy enough to switch around if you choose to/need to do so at any point in time).

Hope this helps by adding a bit more to the discussion...


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

ivyvine420 said:


> You can change the settings through the tivo settings menu area, or use the aspect button on the remote, but I wouldn't think that you would really need to do any of that at all with your general TV watching (and it's easy enough to switch around if you choose to/need to do so at any point in time).
> 
> Hope this helps by adding a bit more to the discussion...


That answers the question. You can switch the Tivo Aspect Modes with a single button on the Remote. You said you never use that button. Try it. It may have a similar flexibility to the SA Mode Button. I always fit the Mode to the broadcast as I described previously. Viewing fit is immensely improved by changing Modes to fit the actual broadcast.

Perhaps TiVo viewing doesn't require constant Mode switching. Perhaps, most SA users are not even aware of how to do this. Maybe this is an advantage to TiVo users over SA users. Most are probably not as up to the "techie" maneuvers when watching TV as I am. When my wife or grandkids watch my HD TV's, I do the Mode switching for them from behind their chairs. They do not even know how or why to do this.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

MitchW said:


> From what you tell me, the four SA8300HD Modes give far greater flexibility in viewing than the three Tivo S3 Aspect Modes. I can switch the SA Modes by pressing the "#" key on the SA Remote. Can the TiVo Aspect Modes also be switched by using one button on the TiVo Remote?


Yes, there is an aspect button, but I don't see how the SA is more flexible. My TV set is far more flexible than either of them, though.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

The TiVo has 3 aspect modes, the 8300 4, basically one extra Zoom. My plasma also has 3, normal, just and full. I have it set to Just and it stretches 4:3 content and leaves 16:9 alone. I've never used any of the other modes on the TiVo or 8300. If something is letterboxed I'll watch it that way as I'd rather see the whole scene instead of chopping off the sides to make the picture bigger. On my 42", letterboxed is plenty big.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

wierdo said:


> Yes, there is an aspect button, but I don't see how the SA is more flexible. My TV set is far more flexible than either of them, though.


I can see where we are going. The ultimate TiVo would be an S4 which could operate OFF THE BACK of the SA8300HD. Then, I could record on either disk, get PPV and VOD AND RECORD THEM ON THE TiVo, use all unique SA features AND all unique TiVo features. In addition all these Cable Card problems would DISAPPEAR.

The old S2 operated off the back of the old non-DVR Cable boxes and I enjoyed it the best at the time. Mid-May there will be a Cable Equipment Show in Las Vegas. I can always hope that TiVo introduces an S4 with the S2 ability to work with the Cable SA8300HD DVR. I also can hope they will still give me the ability to upgrade my Lifetime Subscription on my S2 to the S4.

If that happened, I'd keep my three SA8300HD's and purchase one S4 for my TV room.

However, if they just stay with the S3, I will continue to just wait as well.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

snowjay said:


> The TiVo has 3 aspect modes, the 8300 4, basically one extra Zoom. My plasma also has 3, normal, just and full. I have it set to Just and it stretches 4:3 content and leaves 16:9 alone. I've never used any of the other modes on the TiVo or 8300. If something is letterboxed I'll watch it that way as I'd rather see the whole scene instead of chopping off the sides to make the picture bigger. On my 42", letterboxed is plenty big.


Stretching 4:3 pictures to 16:9 is only good for documentaries and history programs. Interviews and news programs should NOT be stretched or the people will seem FAT. If the broadcast is in Wide 4:3, try that Full Mode if it is equivalent to the SA Zoom1 Mode. It converts Wide 4:3 to perfect HD on the SA with nothing cut off. You don't have the equivalent of my Zoom2 Mode for READING small documents shown in history programs on the screen. That is like HD with a MAGNIFYING GLASS being applied.

Try using your Aspect Button and see how the fit can be improved depending on broadcast mode.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

The Just mode on the Panny does a pretty good job at not making people seem fat.

It's a matter of preference and it doesn't bother me at all. To each his own.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

astrohip said:


> Hmm, your expectations must be different than mine. I have both SA and TiVo, and take part in many threads about the two. I can't recall one person who said they actually like the SA better. Usually it's money, or PPV, or VOD. But to actually like the SA UI better? Wonders never cease!


Yeah, that left me scratching my head, too. I cannot imagine how any sentient person could claim with a straight face that that an 8300HD running SARA software is in any way better than an S3. All of this goes to show, I suppose, that in the midst of a spirited debate competitive zeal can have a detrimental effect on judgment.


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## lcann44 (Apr 15, 2007)

gwsat said:


> Yeah, that left me scratching my head, too. I cannot imagine how any sentient person could claim with a straight face that that an 8300HD running SARA software is in any way better than an S3. All of this goes to show, I suppose, that in the midst of a spirited debate competitive zeal can have a detrimental effect on judgment.


Either that or the writer of the article is stuffing his pipe with much more then tobacco.  Yes it is pricey but so is a Lexus compared to a Chevy. Both get you to the same point but it's the comfort level that it get's you there.

And I did have reliability issues with my SA 8300, unlike others who have said they had no problems.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

gwsat said:


> Yeah, that left me scratching my head, too. I cannot imagine how any sentient person could claim with a straight face that that an 8300HD running SARA software is in any way better than an S3. All of this goes to show, I suppose, that in the midst of a spirited debate competitive zeal can have a detrimental effect on judgment.


I see it as someone trying to hard to convince themselves that what they have is better. Its fine if the 8300 works for them, but for some of us it doesn't and don't try to tell me the 8300 is better. It is not for my needs.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

lcann44 said:


> Either that or the writer of the article is stuffing his pipe with much more then tobacco.  Yes it is pricey but so is a Lexus compared to a Chevy. Both get you to the same point but it's the comfort level that it get's you there.
> 
> And I did have reliability issues with my SA 8300, unlike others who have said they had no problems.


I drive a Dodge Neon Automobile while some drive a Private Jet Airplane. Price is a factor to all of us and our resources vary widely as well. If one has only one HD TV, then ONE Tivo would probably be best. I own THREE 32" HD TV's and THREE TiVo's are out of the question since each TV is the SAME price as the TiVo S3. I prefer allocating my annual TV expenditures on new TV's each year rather than DVR's. HD is getting better every year but 3D is just around the corner.

Prices are falling for all equipment, both TV's and DVR's and technology is constantly improving. Today's S3 will be almost worthless once the new S4 is introduced. Scientific Atlanta as well will soon introduce the SA9000HD making the SA8300HD obsolete. Thus, renting DVR's may be a better use of funds than buying DVR's.

The Tivo S3 has far better documentation than the SA8300HD. However, for those of us with techie instincts, the UNDOCUMENTED features of the SA8300HD make it a far better DVR. Also, I have not yet seen any flaws in its operation as compared to a lot of threads here talking about S3 flaws including the endless patience required to install those Cable Cards and the abscence of VOD and PPV.

By the way, I own a now unused S2 and the SA8300HD has far more features than that one did. I cannot compare with an S3 since I do not own one yet. I would be in the market for a substantially reduced price S4 which could operate on top of the SA8300HD or SA9000HD. Then I could have the unique features of both brands.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

drew2k said:


> I found out [from experience] that the SA8300HD now keeps all series you have set to record in your TO DO list and if there are no upcoming episodes, it shows the next airing is "Saturday". When Saturday rolls around, it doesn't record it because the show's not really on. It just does this so you can go and modify the settings and/or delete that series.


OMG, mine did that too and I could never figure out why and then what happened to those Saturday recordings. How stupid!


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

MitchW said:


> for those of us with techie instincts, the UNDOCUMENTED features of the SA8300HD make it a far better DVR.


Undocumented features? Such as? Is one of them actually getting the 8300HD to record a show when it's supposed to? Mine didn't come with that feature.


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## lcann44 (Apr 15, 2007)

MitchW said:


> Prices are falling for all equipment, both TV's and DVR's and technology is constantly improving. Today's S3 will be almost worthless once the new S4 is introduced. Scientific Atlanta as well will soon introduce the SA9000HD making the SA8300HD obsolete. Thus, renting DVR's may be a better use of funds than buying DVR's.


Point taken. I don't deny cost is a factor. And undoubtly the SA 9000HD will have cable cards.....or did you not take that into consideration?



MitchW said:


> The Tivo S3 has far better documentation than the SA8300HD. However, for those of us with techie instincts, the UNDOCUMENTED features of the SA8300HD make it a far better DVR. Also, I have not yet seen any flaws in its operation as compared to a lot of threads here talking about S3 flaws including the endless patience required to install those Cable Cards and the abscence of VOD and PPV.


Just what EXACTLY is "techie instincts?" Does this mean you can sniff around an SA 8300 and fine more features then the rest of us can?  And what about areas of the country that have tried to update firmware of the SA 8300 only to have it fail and roll it back to previous versions? And I'm sure that the S3 has a host of "undocumented" features that we haven't dreamed up yet, or maybe have requested and may be coming in the future.

For me there is just one point. Reliability. The SA 8300 was unreliable for me. When I say this I say for me personally, however I have seen others that have had the exact same experiences that I had and others that have said quite the opposite. And for what it's worth I have two HD televisions and when once MRV rolls out I'll either purchase another S3 or see what their new "mass market" HD DVR has to offer. VOD I could care less about, that's why I have a DVR and PPV I'm not interested in. If I do want a movie I'll get it from Amazon Unbox.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

MitchW said:


> The Tivo S3 has far better documentation than the SA8300HD. However, for those of us with techie instincts, the UNDOCUMENTED features of the SA8300HD make it a far better DVR. Also, I have not yet seen any flaws in its operation as compared to a lot of threads here talking about S3 flaws including the endless patience required to install those Cable Cards and the abscence of VOD and PPV.


So we're up to VOD, IPPV (since you can order PPV and view it with CableCARDs, just not order it through the box. I have my laptop close by at all times, so I can just use that to order), and one extra zoom mode. Other than price, what does the 8300 do better than the S3?


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

> what does the 8300 do better than the S3?


 Does the 8300 have firewire? One thing i can name on my moto boxes is i can move my recorded content off my dvr's to my pc. Thats the one advantage i see right now, at least for the motorola boxes. Im assuming you can do it iwth the 8300 since all cable boxes were required to have firewire put on them is my understanding.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

wierdo said:


> So we're up to VOD, IPPV (since you can order PPV and view it with CableCARDs, just not order it through the box. I have my laptop close by at all times, so I can just use that to order), and one extra zoom mode. Other than price, what does the 8300 do better than the S3?


If I could lease a Tivo S3 for $ 11 per month as I can with the SA8300HD, I would do so. That's a lot less than $ 1,000 to purchase one (includes the $ 200 upgrade fee for Lifetime). For that $ 1,000 I can purchase MORE HD TV's. The TV is my primary object in this activity, NOT the DVR. The big problem with both brands is OBSOLESENCE. That is why LEASING is a much better option than buying.

The other big feature is the ability to WATCH TV in the PIP window while I look for programs on the future schedule. I get HOURS of more TV with that feature.

Have you tried ordering and watching PPV and VOD using the S3 yet? Does it really work with the Cable Cards?


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

MitchW said:


> If I could lease a Tivo S3 for $ 11 per month as I can with the SA8300HD, I would do so. That's a lot less than $ 1,000 to purchase one (includes the $ 200 upgrade fee for Lifetime). For that $ 1,000 I can purchase MORE HD TV's. The TV is my primary object in this activity, NOT the DVR. The big problem with both brands is OBSOLESENCE. That is why LEASING is a much better option than buying.
> 
> The other big feature is the ability to WATCH TV in the PIP window while I look for programs on the future schedule. I get HOURS of more TV with that feature.
> 
> Have you tried ordering and watching PPV and VOD using the S3 yet? Does it really work with the Cable Cards?


I have ordered (through the phone) and watched PPV on my S3s, VOD will not work though, as it is not on a tunable channel.

Your $1000 is a bit off these days, I believe the going rate is $600 or so now if you shop around, plus the $200 gets rid of the monthly fee so you have to factor that in as well.

As far as the PIP goes, I guess it would be nice if TiVo added it as long as they leave a setting where you can turn it off, I would rather not have it playing personally. When I'm in the menus I like to get done whatever I'm doing and get out, and whatever is playing I wouldn't really be concentrating on anyhow. Plus if it's playing something off live TV in PIP that I'm recording, I'd have to worry about spoiling a sporting event or movie possibly. YMMV of course, just saying that is a "feature" I could definitely do without.


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## lcann44 (Apr 15, 2007)

davecramer74 said:


> Does the 8300 have firewire? One thing i can name on my moto boxes is i can move my recorded content off my dvr's to my pc. Thats the one advantage i see right now, at least for the motorola boxes. Im assuming you can do it iwth the 8300 since all cable boxes were required to have firewire put on them is my understanding.


I believe it is firmware, but looking at the diagnostic screen(s) it refers to it as 'software."

As far as the firewire goes I know of one person who said they could see the SA 8300 on their PC. Other then that I don't know if they were able to actually access content. They never got back to me.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

MitchW said:


> The other big feature is the ability to WATCH TV in the PIP window while I look for programs on the future schedule. I get HOURS of more TV with that feature.


I don't like having my shows spoiled for me while I'm recording shows.

Of course, if the TiVo isn't recording, I just use the Live Guide to find whatever I want to watch. Rather than a little window, the show plays behind the transparent guide. Either that or I use the PC to do it, which is far faster than using either the TiVo or the Motorola DVR, since I don't have to use some stupid on screen keyboard to enter names.

Additionally, I very rarely need to tell the thing to record more stuff, since I can use wishlists to have it record many of the sorts of shows I'd like it to record. Also, I don't have to let the TV rule my life because the S3 holds a reasonable number of shows. To be fair, some cable companies have the eSATA port on the 8300 active, making it possible to have a reasonable amount of space on the 8300. The interface is still **** and still requires that I spend far more time than I should telling it what to do. With TiVo I tell it once and it's done. And if that wasn't enough it's kind enough to record things it thinks I might like, and much of it I do indeed like.


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## Carlos_E (Mar 12, 2007)

MitchW said:


> The other big feature is the ability to WATCH TV in the PIP window while I look for programs on the future schedule. I get HOURS of more TV with that feature.


You can watch TV full screen while viewing the channel guide on the S3.



MitchW said:


> Have you tried ordering and watching PPV and VOD using the S3 yet? Does it really work with the Cable Cards?


Yes it works. You can order PPV over the phone. I've done it.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MitchW said:


> If I could lease a Tivo S3 for $ 11 per month as I can with the SA8300HD, I would do so. That's a lot less than $ 1,000 to purchase one (includes the $ 200 upgrade fee for Lifetime). For that $ 1,000 I can purchase MORE HD TV's. The TV is my primary object in this activity, NOT the DVR. The big problem with both brands is OBSOLESENCE. That is why LEASING is a much better option than buying.
> 
> The other big feature is the ability to WATCH TV in the PIP window while I look for programs on the future schedule. I get HOURS of more TV with that feature.
> 
> Have you tried ordering and watching PPV and VOD using the S3 yet? Does it really work with the Cable Cards?


And if I could lease a BMW for the price of a Yugo, I would too.

The money argument just doesn't cut it with me. Yes, cable DVRs are usually less expensive (but not always). But I didn't buy an S3 to save money. Who does? It's a better DVR. In my case, it is worth every penny to get the S3 experience. If it's not worth it to you, no problemo. But don't try to justify your savings against my expenditure. It won't work.

And if you truly watch hours of TV in the PIP window, why did you waste money on an HD TV? I have an SA DVR, so I know what the PIP window looks like. It is a nice feature, and I wish TiVo offered it. But it's for a momentary convenience, not for watching TV. Good Lord man, get a grip 

I've often wondered why TiVo didn't add P-I-P to the S3, since it has two active buffers.


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