# Comcast: Normal to pay "Additional Outlet Fee" for using Tivo HD?



## gslater (Nov 2, 2006)

Received my first statement from Comcast since getting my HD XL set up and working (adding to our existing S2DT). Noticed that it has the $6.99 "Additional Outlet Fee" on there, but no charge for the CableCard (since the first card is no charge, and I received an M-card). Expected to pay nothing for the CableCard, but also expected no add'l outlet fee, based on my recollection from lots of surfing of old posts here, and based on what I was told by the Comcast sales rep when placing my CableCard order.

Is my recollection incorrect? Is it typical to have to pay that for using my TiVo? There's another TV in the house connected to a regular Comcast cable box (feeding the S2DT), and another one connected to a crappy Comcast HD DVR, which was included as part of the bundle to which I'm subscribing. Perhaps the thinking is that the add'l outlet fee applies to one of those other systems?

Side note: Now that we've got 2 TiVos and one Comcast DVR in the house, my wife now completely gets why the TiVo HD was worth every penny. The Comcast DVR software is so damn lame, I can't believe it. Everyone had told me that, but I had no idea it would be so bad...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

If you have only a TiVo, there will be no outlet fee.

In many service areas, Comcast charges an "outlet fee" for every box after the first, regardless of whether it is a CableCard, DVR, or STB. In other service areas, the CableCards do not count as separate outlets.

If there's only one outlet fee on your bill, you should be able to eliminate it by dropping the set-top box.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Seems to me that each Comcast office does its own thing with charges. I have 2 M-cards in my Tivo S3 and 1 M-card in my Tivo HD and I'm not paying anything extra. No CableCard fee. No "additional outlet"fee. The S3 I've had for well over a year now. I was certain I'd have to pay something two months ago when I added the Tivo HD, but aside from the truck roll ($28), there's been nothing at all. Others, apparently, are paying somewhere between a nominal charge and .


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

my comcast system included the first DIGITAL outlet in the package price. Nay other digital outlets (including HD tivo's) incur the fee.

I believe the law is they can not charge the outlet fee on analog (I don't pay for my S2 without a box) only on digital outlets.

So in the OP's case the comcast DVR is the first digital outlet and therefore free. And the tivo is the second digital outlet and hence the charge. I believe that is normal.

As an aside although the DTA's (and apparently shortly tivo Hd's sans cablecards) can get digital channels as they only get digital channels that used to be analog they don't seem to incur the digital additonal outlet fee (for the first 2 at least). I guess they see them as a converter to get the analog tier and they only want to rip people off (um charge mirror fee like DBS) on the extended digital tier.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Depends on your area, & what your local/state government are allowing.

Although... you shouldn't have to. I would call and complain.

TGC


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

To answer the original question directly: yes what you are seeing is normal. The reason for your additional outlet fee is because you have both the Tivo HD and the Comcast DVR. Each of those is considered to be a digital outlet, and if you have more than one, then you pay the additional outlet fee for each one beyond the first. If you got rid of the Comcast DVR, you would get rid of the additional outlet fee and the DVR fee. 

Your S2DT does not incur any additional charges because it is only receiving the analog signal. You can hookup as many analog devices as you want with no additional fees. Digital devices like Tivo HD and Comcast DVR, however, have to be registered/authorized on the Comcast system, so they can charge you for every one. That's one reason the cable companies want everyone to switch to digital, so they can charge fees per-outlet. 

Note that the number of channels you can receive on your S2DT will decrease over time as analog channels are migrated to digital only. When Comcast does this migration in your area, you will need to get DTA if you want to have access to the full range of channels. A DTA is a small box that converts digital channels to analog. I'm not sure if Comcast charges a per-outlet fee for DTAs, but I don't think they do.


Edit:
Whoops, bkdtv is right. I had overlooked the fact that the S2DT is being fed by a cable box rather than directly connected to the cable. This changes most of what I wrote above. The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs above don't apply. Assuming that the box feeding the S2DT is a digital cable box, the OP then has 3 digital boxes and should consider himself lucky that he is only getting charged for one additional outlet instead of two.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

spocko said:


> Your S2DT does not incur any additional charges because it is only receiving the analog signal. You can hookup as many analog devices as you want with no additional fees. Digital devices like Tivo HD and Comcast DVR, however, have to be registered/authorized on the Comcast system, so they can charge you for every one. That's one reason the cable companies want everyone to switch to digital, so they can charge fees per-outlet.


Note his S2DT is connected to a Comcast STB. He has a Comcast STB, Comcast DVR, and CableCard, but is paying one outlet fee.


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## gslater (Nov 2, 2006)

I think you guys are right about perhaps considering myself lucky. I think I'm only getting billed for one add'l outlet fee because I was going to just keep the DTA I had previously received as part of Comcast's "all digital" transition in my area, but instead kept the STB when the installer came to configure things recently. Perhaps their records think I've still got a DTA instead of the STB (if that makes a difference).


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

I was paying AO fees for my setup where I had a digital box and a TiVoHD, but I was told by a CSR that the fee was wrong (that it only applied to rented boxes) and I got them not only to remove it but to credit the old fees back to my account.

Now I have three TiVoHDs, each with one M-Card and no Comcast boxes. I pay $2 for each 3 M-Cards but no AO fees. 

If I wanted a box for On Demand, I wouldn't pay an AO fee (that would be my one and only box, included in my digital package), but I'd still pay the $6 extra fee for an HD box, which I've decided is not worth doing just for On Demand.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

I don't think that FiOS has AO fees. Anyone know for sure?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I don't think that FiOS has AO fees. Anyone know for sure?


Verizon FiOS does not have any monthly outlet fees. They will charge you a one-time "outlet installation fee" if you want them to install and setup more than three TVs. You can avoid this charge if you setup additional TVs yourself.

Note Verizon does charge $3.99/mo for each CableCard (M-CARD), whereas Comcast provides the first for free. Additional Comcast CableCards run $1.50/mo to $2.50/mo.


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## MiakioAmy (Oct 2, 2002)

aindik said:


> Now I have three TiVoHDs, each with one M-Card and no Comcast boxes. I pay $2 for each 3 M-Cards but no AO fees.


Mine is the opposite. I have two TiVo HDs. I don't pay for any of the cable cards, but Comcast is charging me the AO fee.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> Additional Comcast CableCards run $1.50/mo to $2.50/mo.


They just raised it to $7.49/month where I live. It's getting out of hand. Check out my most recent bill:



I have four TiVos that utilize a total of six CableCards. For this, I am being charged nearly $33/month. That's just completely insane! The sad thing is that I'm still not sure how everything breaks down on my bill. You can talk to five different customer service reps, and they'll all give you a different answer. The most recent card I added is obviously the $7.49 charge. The $1.50 charge is probably my first card. So where are my other four cards? My theory is that they are listed under "Digital Access Fee" @ $5.99 each. If this is the case, then I guess I should just be happy that I'm not being charged any "Additional Outlet" fees as well. What a joke!!!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

gweempose said:


> They just raised it to $7.49/month where I live. It's getting out of hand. Check out my most recent bill:
> 
> 
> 
> I have four TiVos that utilize a total of six CableCards. For this, I am being charged nearly $33/month. That's just completely insane! The sad thing is that I'm still not sure how everything breaks down on my bill. You can talk to five different customer service reps, and they'll all give you a different answer. The most recent card I added is obviously the $7.49 charge. The $1.50 charge is probably my first card. So where are my other four cards? My theory is that they are listed under "Digital Access Fee" @ $5.99 each. If this is the case, then I guess I should just be happy that I'm not being charged any "Additional Outlet" fees as well. What a joke!!!


The FCC at one time warned cable not to charge "too much" for the cards themselves and apparently set 2 dollars as the price. So no idea what that 7.49 charge is but probably not for the cablecard itself. But cable saw how DBS got away with "mirror fees" for addtional boxes and got jealous and had congress give them the ability to charge "additional outlet fees" for digital service.

My WAG of your bill ( that's all I think anyone can do with a comcast bill- mine gives me a brain hurt too- laughing).

do you have 4 tivos and 2 comcast rental dvrs?

if so then I'm going to venture that the first rental DVR is a "free outlet" then you are getting charged for 5 addtional outlets. Four of those are labeled as digital access fee at 5.99. of Those 4, one is assinged to your second rental dvr and 3 are assinged to your first 3 tivos (which each get one free card). One of those tivos requires a second card and so they are charging you 1.50 for a t3dvr card. The final tivo also needs 2 cards so they should charge you another 5.99 +1.50 but for some weird reason they bundled that one into the T3 aowdig for 7.49.

that's all my wild ass guess but maybe that's what is going on?

if my guess holds up- notice that the second rental dvr you have is getting charged one of those 5.99 additional outlet fees- anytime you add another digital outlet whether it be a rental box or an owned box with cards you get zinged that fee. You can thank DBS for showing it works and congress for passing the law that allowed it.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> The FCC at one time warned cable not to charge "too much" for the cards themselves and apparently set 2 dollars as the price. So no idea what that 7.49 charge is but probably not for the CableCard itself.


I'm fairly certain that the $7.49 charge is indeed for the CableCard. I got the card quite recently, and when I called them up to schedule the install, they specifically mentioned that they had raised the CableCard rental fee to $7.49. I was also told that any older cards on the account would be grandfathered in at the lower rates. It would just make life so much simpler if Comcast would charge the same CableCard fees in every market. As it stands, it's nearly impossible to determine if you are being overcharged or not.



MichaelK said:


> Do you have 4 TiVos and 2 Comcast rental dvrs?


Yes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I'm fairly certain that the $7.49 charge is indeed for the CableCard. I got the card quite recently, and when I called them up to schedule the install, they specifically mentioned that they had raised the CableCard rental fee to $7.49. I was also told that any older cards on the account would be grandfathered in at the lower rates. It would just make life so much simpler if Comcast would charge the same CableCard fees in every market. As it stands, it's nearly impossible to determine if you are being overcharged or not.
> 
> Yes.


my vote is even the csr doesnt unterstand. The "new rate" of 7.49 is almost certainly a bundled cablecard and addtional outlet fee. I'm guessing that A/owdiag stands for *A*ddional *OW*tlet (comcast spelling- laughing) *Diag*ital (another comcast spelling).

Comcast as one of the top 5 cable company's has to quarterly report to the FCC about how they are doing with cablecards. Part of the report is what they charge. The reports can be found here: http://www.ncta.com/Filings/5612.aspx and you can see from the 3.22 report that they say the first card is zero and additional cards are 1.50. Which happens to fit my GUESS above.

did they also add another 5.99 digital outlet fee when they gave you that 7.49 charge or was the 7.49 charge the only new charge? If so I'm as certain as one can be when dealing with cable that it includes the addtional outlet fees that you are charged individually for at the bottom of your bill.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I didn't realize that every TiVo gets one free card. If so, then I can't fault your logic, and everything does appear to add up to what it's supposed to. The one thing that seems unfair to me is that they charge you more for an S3 with two cards than they do for a THD with only one card. This doesn't make sense, since each device still has the same number of digital tuners. Then again, why should anything that Comcast does make sense?


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## Agent86 (Jan 18, 2002)

I have been slugging this one out with Comcast for a while. Here's where things stand as best I can understand.

Any Comcast account that includes a digital box or DVR can have that piece of equipment swapped for a CableCard. If you choose to do so, your CableCard will then be free.

If you elect to add a CableCard to your account, they tend to add the devices as a new digital outlet. This is the $6.95 charge. That is the charge for an additional digital outlet, and the CableCard. If you have a TiVo HD/XL, and are using a single multi-stream card, the charges should end there.

If you have a Series3, or an HD/XL with two single-stream cards, you will need an additional card on the account. The additional card on the account should be billed as a "Cable Card Same Outlet" charge for $1.50.

The prices differ from market to market, but they should be ballpark enough to figure out where they fall in your area.

The entire thing is a gigantic mess though. I've tried to argue things nine ways to Sunday (they are on the same outlet, why are the cards more expensive then one of your boxes that has a card included, etc) and you end up in varying places. I've had all the cards on my account listed at $1.50 for a while, but I've also had them all listed at $6.95 too. For better or worse, there is no consistency.

They just announced they're moving expanded basic to digital in my area, and are giving us all 2 "free" DTAs as part of the process. My next shot will be trying to get the cards to replace the DTAs. We'll see how that goes, but I'm not expecting much.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Ditto in the ATL - I had an STB and added the Tivo HD later. $5.99 A/O charge for the Tivo, and talking to someone in exec relations got nowhere - he explained that this was the normal charge for ANY digital outlet, CC or STB or DVR.

So as seen in this thread, YMMV - some pay nothing, others pay the A/O. But the first card should be included in any A/O fee (the Comcast CC FAQ states this) and there should be no separate 'HD access' or 'HD programming' fees for the Tivo.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I didn't realize that every TiVo gets one free card. If so, then I can't fault your logic, and everything does appear to add up to what it's supposed to. The one thing that seems unfair to me is that they charge you more for an S3 with two cards than they do for a THD with only one card. This doesn't make sense, since each device still has the same number of digital tuners. Then again, why should anything that Comcast does make sense?


I have two M cards and no fee, other than the Digital access nonsense. No outlet fee.

The bill is still twice as high as it should be. Still $106 with HBO at half price.

Comcast is supposed to have a $45/month everything deal with a one year commit?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I didn't realize that every TiVo gets one free card.


Where I am, every TiVo (or other CableCARD device) gets one free S-Card. If you want an M-Card, it costs $2. Also, a second S-Card costs $2. So, either way, it's $2 if you want to use both tuners.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

gweempose said:


> I'm fairly certain that the $7.49 charge is indeed for the CableCard. I got the card quite recently, and when I called them up to schedule the install, they specifically mentioned that they had raised the CableCard rental fee to $7.49...


If that's the case, that's freakin' outrageous...I would complain all the way up to the CEO.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

gweempose said:


> ....The one thing that seems unfair to me is that they charge you more for an S3 with two cards than they do for a THD with only one card. This doesn't make sense, since each device still has the same number of digital tuners. Then again, why should anything that Comcast does make sense?


Why should that not make sense? They are charging for CARDS (THEIR cards)-- not tuners (YOUR tuners). I have Mediacom, and I have four CableCARDS -- an S-card and an M-card in my S3 and two S-cards in my TiVoHD (They can't seem to get M cards any more around here ). I get charged $1.99/month for each card.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Why should that not make sense? They are charging for CARDS (THEIR cards)-- not tuners (YOUR tuners). I have Mediacom, and I have four CableCARDS -- an S-card and an M-card in my S3 and two S-cards in my TiVoHD (They can't seem to get M cards any more around here ). I get charged $1.99/month for each card.


Why would you have an M-Card in your S3 and two S-Cards in your THD?

Mediacom doesn't charge more for M-Cards than they do for S-Cards? Comcast does. The price of an M-Card is the same as the price of two S-Cards.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

aindik said:


> Why would you have an M-Card in your S3 and two S-Cards in your THD?
> 
> Mediacom doesn't charge more for M-Cards than they do for S-Cards? Comcast does. The price of an M-Card is the same as the price of two S-Cards.


I had no choice in the matter; the CableCARDS were installed in my original S3 a year ago, and that's what the tech brought (one M and one S). The CABLECards in my TiVoHD were installed a couple of months ago, and, again that's what the tech brought. I needed three truck rolls to get the TiVoHD properly working with those cards, and, each time, despite my requesting one M-card for the TiVoHD, they brought two S-cards because they can't get the M-cards any more (at least in this Mediacom market). And, no, they charge the same for an M or an S card - $1.99/month for each card.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Agent86 said:


> ...
> 
> They just announced they're moving expanded basic to digital in my area, and are giving us all 2 "free" DTAs as part of the process. My next shot will be trying to get the cards to replace the DTAs. We'll see how that goes, but I'm not expecting much.


tivo recently said that comcast would allow Tivohd's to be used instead of DTA's. Once that goes into effect I believe they will offer you that you can use a tivo to get expanded basic even though it is digital without the digital outlet fee. If you ask for the card to get any digital channels above expanded basic then they will charge you the outlet fee and the card fee.

Again just my guess.

What I find most annoying is comcast has no national set of rules. They seem to be getting more and more similar from one area to the next but they aren't universally matching what their own FAQ's and filings to the FCC say. I think mostly they do match but not universally.

As an example at my headend each card is a buck. First card in the tivo is a buck. Second card in the same tivo is a buck. Seems others get one for free and second for 1.50. It's 50 cents difference- no big deal so why dont they just pick one way or the other and be done with it???


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## GarKar (Dec 29, 2003)

After spending 4 months getting USCable in Arvada, CO to try to support my Series 3, and giving them the S3 for a week to see if they could make cable cards work (they failed), I got their main field support manager to come to my house with cards to try again. I printed every document on S3 cable cards, installation, activation, troubleshooting, etc. Between the two of us, we carefully followed directions and got both cards activated and working. I had some channel guide corrections which Tivo took care of quickly and have been thoroughly enjoying basic HD programming of about 25 channels.

Then I got my first bill. I am being charged $16 per cable card per month for 2 'S' cards. I'm also being charged $5 per month per cable card for the digital connection. With other fees and taxes, my bill went up $43.21 entirely due to 2 cable cards. This cable company is partly owned by Comcast which charges about $2 for the cable cards, with one free, and one connection fee of about $8, I believe. This thread is very helpful as I am about to call USCable and ask for an explanation of the charges.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> tivo recently said that comcast would allow Tivohd's to be used instead of DTA's. Once that goes into effect I believe they will offer you that you can use a tivo to get expanded basic even though it is digital without the digital outlet fee. If you ask for the card to get any digital channels above expanded basic then they will charge you the outlet fee and the card fee.


That would be very nice, and would probably save money for quite a few people around here. For me, my Tivo is currently my only digital box. When I signed up for Digital Starter, I had the choice of getting either one cable card or one Comcast digital box for no additional charge. If what you say is correct, that I might be able to get a Comcast box and still use my Tivo with cablecard without having to pay additional fees. I'd be happy with that.

Unlinke Bierboy, in my area they have M-cards but can't get S-cards anymore. This can also be a problem because there are some TV's that only work with S-cards.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

GarKar said:


> ....I am about to call USCable and ask for an explanation of the charges.


Crap, I would do more than ask for an explanation; I would DEMAND they significantly reduce the charges and refund what they over-charged you. That's just ludicrous.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> tivo recently said that comcast would allow Tivohd's to be used instead of DTA's.


Does using a TiVoHD as a DTA mean you can't get premium channels (or, really, channels beyond expanded basic) on it (which is true of the actual DTAs)? Or does it just mean that digital packages now include a box and two of a) DTA or b) an M-card or c) one or two S-Cards in a single device.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

spocko said:


> ... If what you say is correct, that I might be able to get a Comcast box and still use my Tivo with cablecard without having to pay additional fees. I'd be happy with that.....


re-read what i posted.

I suspect the deal will be you can activate tivoHd's WITHOUT cable card for no additional fee.

So if you have a Comcast box with a cablecard equipped TiVo then you will have two "digital outlets" and you will have to pay for the additional outlet.

Basically i think it means they will provide mapping for clear qam channels so tivo can do guide data for the former analog channels without needing a cablecard. so if it's a channel that requires a cablecard then you will need to pay for a cable card and you will also still pay the additional outlet we. But the analog channels coverted to digital can't be encrypted if the DTA's can receive them. The DTA's can not legally decrypt channels without using a cablecard- it's illegal to deploy a new box that decypts without using a cablecard.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aindik said:


> Does using a TiVoHD as a DTA mean you can't get premium channels (or, really, channels beyond expanded basic) on it (which is true of the actual DTAs)? Or does it just mean that digital packages now include a box and two of a) DTA or b) an M-card or c) one or two S-Cards in a single device.


this is what I know:


Comcast can not legally buy a new cablebox that has the ability to decrypt encrypted channels unless said box uses cablecards.

DTA's do not use cablecards.

Therefore the channels that DTA's can receive are not encrypted.

Currently tivo allows you to manually tune to unencrypted digital channels and set manual recordings but there is no guide data. People complain about the lack of clear qam mapping.

tivo has said that comcast will allow people to use a tivoHD instead of a DTA for free.


so this is what i am guessing:

the
channels that were analog are being converted to digital but in the clear - without any encryption. Since the DTA can't decrypt legally the channels must be clean.

Comcast will provide guide data to tribune/comcast so that the tivo boxes will map the digital channels properly and you can use the tivo guide to set up season passes, wishlists, and everything else we know.

comcast will not be unencrypting anything else that is already encrypted digital and requires a cablecard.

So my GUESS is the end game is if you can currently/previously get the channels on analog extended without a cablebox then you will be able to get the same channel converted to digital on a Tivo HD without a card and for no additional fee. Comcast will really have no way of knowing if you even have a tivoHD because they don't need to send any "hits" to the box to approve it to do anything- so they couldn't even charge if they wanted.

BUT if you ask for a cable card to get more channels then the converted analog tier they will charge you. So premiums and the old "digital tier" will still require a cablecard and it's cost and additional outlet fees if you have more then one digital receiver that can decrypt.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> Basically i think it means they (Comcast) will provide mapping for clear qam channels so tivo can do guide data for the former analog channels without needing a cablecard.


I don't have as much faith in Comcast as you seem to. While I'm sure they will honour the letter of the agreement by permitting a TiVo to be used instead of a DTA, I don't expect them to do anything to make it convenient. In particular I don't expect to see clear QAM channel mapping for TiVos.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I don't have as much faith in Comcast as you seem to. While I'm sure they will honour the letter of the agreement by permitting a TiVo to be used instead of a DTA, I don't expect them to do anything to make it convenient. In particular I don't expect to see clear QAM channel mapping for TiVos.


hmmm- i guess they could hand out cablecards for free and then lock them down to just allow the former analog tier.

But I would assume business logic would prevail and they would realize it would be much cheaper to just have the head end engineer from each system spend 15 minutes once creating the clear qam map and emailing it to tribune rather then spending thousands on additional cablecards and tens or hundreds of hours per headend to do cablecard install, troubleshooting, and billing system integration. Although i guess getting the cablecard in the box at the customer premises makes it a lot easier to upsell later on- no truck roll required just "hit" the card to add more channels.....

I guess we'll see what they do in the coming months. I'd like to see because my area already got the 2 DTA offer....


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> hmmm- i guess they could hand out cablecards for free and then lock them down to just allow the former analog tier.


I think the heart of the question is, what is the nature of the AO fee. Is it a programming fee or an equipment fee.

If it's an equipment fee, then there seems to be no reason why I should pay an AO fee if I don't rent their equipment. And there's no reason to lock down the channels in a tier that I'm paying for on my other TV.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

aindik said:


> I think the heart of the question is, what is the nature of the AO fee. Is it a programming fee or an equipment fee.
> 
> If it's an equipment fee, then there seems to be no reason why I should pay an AO fee if I don't rent their equipment. And there's no reason to lock down the channels in a tier that I'm paying for on my other TV.


The nature of the AO fee is it's a profit center of an extra $100 a year per sucker sub.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

MichaelK said:


> re-read what i posted.
> 
> I suspect the deal will be you can activate tivoHd's WITHOUT cable card for no additional fee.


Ok. Your earlier post didn't say that clearly.

Without cablecard, though, something doesn't make sense here. A Tivo whithout a cablecard is just a clear QAM tuner like any other. It doesn't need to be authorized by Comcast at all. The issue then would just be channel mapping as you have noted. DTAs and cablecards take provide channel mapping. It is possible for Comcast to take care of channel mapping for clear QAM tuners by supplying appropriate PSIP data, and I think they should, but in most areas they currently don't. If they plan to do this, then all clear QAM tuners could get the correct channel mappings and there is nothing Tivo-specific about that. I'm not aware of any other way for Comcast to provide channel mapping to Tivos. If channel mapping was going to be handled through Tribune, wouldn't Tivo have to make software changes to support that? My understanding is that the guide data currently provided by Tribune is purely program info and has nothing to do with channel mapping. Am I wrong?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

netringer said:


> The nature of the AO fee is it's a profit center of an extra $100 a year per sucker sub.


ding ding ding we have a winner.

I seem to recall that they sold it to congress that it's an equipment fee that is based on their "reasonable" added costs to service the outlet. So lets see- maybe they give you another splitter for 79 cents at install, then maybe they have to buy a larger conditonal acces system that can handle more addresses. And there's some addtional labor to install- and since they have idiotic systems to activate it takes time for some CSR at the head end to add another outlet. Does that add up to 6 bucks a month- not in my mind. Perhaps disney charges per outlet and not per household?

But the real world is they watched directv and dish charge "mirror" fees since their inception and it didn't really slow them down at all so cable figured why shouldn't they so we can get the 100 bucks a year per sub as we transition away from analog to digital.

It's been many years but I seem to recall that they used to be able to charge per set with analog too but at some point crogress outlawed that. I guess cable had good lobbyists that somehow argued digital was vastly different from analog.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

spocko said:


> Ok. Your earlier post didn't say that clearly.
> 
> Without cablecard, though, something doesn't make sense here. A Tivo whithout a cablecard is just a clear QAM tuner like any other. It doesn't need to be authorized by Comcast at all. The issue then would just be channel mapping as you have noted. DTAs and cablecards take provide channel mapping. It is possible for Comcast to take care of channel mapping for clear QAM tuners by supplying appropriate PSIP data, and I think they should, but in most areas they currently don't. If they plan to do this, then all clear QAM tuners could get the correct channel mappings and there is nothing Tivo-specific about that. I'm not aware of any other way for Comcast to provide channel mapping to Tivos. If channel mapping was going to be handled through Tribune, wouldn't Tivo have to make software changes to support that? My understanding is that the guide data currently provided by Tribune is purely program info and has nothing to do with channel mapping. Am I wrong?


exactly their no authorizing allowed- if the channels aren't in the clear then the DTA is illegal since it's not permitted to decrypt without using a cablecard. So it's entirely a channel map issue.

the guide info from tribune contains a channel map for sure. It's the only way that a non-cablecard tivo would have any idea what channel anything is on. When the tribune data is wrong the tivo gets all fouled up not understanding what station is on what number channel- just scan the threads about how the guide data gets totally futzed when verizon changes over markets channel ordering or when ATSC channels move from their temporary spots to their new spot.

I seem to recall some hackers have figured out how to inject qam mapping info into the tivo channel list even. It might require a software upate because i dont know how the tivo map interacts with the cablecard, but I'm sure tivo would jump on the opportunity to update their software a bit to get the chance of replacing DTA's from comcast. But since the hackers can do I'd bet that tribune just needs to get the correct map from the head ends and pass it along.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> the guide info from tribune contains a channel map for sure. It's the only way that a non-cablecard tivo would have any idea what channel anything is on.


When the Tribune data for a "cable ready" lineup (without a box or a cable card), says that CNN is on channel 4, "channel 4" is a known quantity. The TiVo can find Channel 4 the same way any cable ready TV or VCR could - everyone knows what frequency Channel 4 is on.

There are something like 124 actual known frequency channels. Each one is capable of holding either one analog channel, or 38 Mbps of digital content split however the cable company wants to split it up.

With digital channels (and, on some systems, with analog channels too), the actual, real, standardized channel number that corresponds to a known frequency is not what anyone sees when they use the cable company's equipment or look at the cable company's web site. There is a "mapping" sent from the head end to the box or cable card that tells the tuner what the real channel is when the user puts in channel 231. Without the cable company's equipment to tell it what real frequency (and what subchannel on that frequency) is matched with what UI channel number, the TiVo has no idea what frequency to tune to if the user wants to watch the local ABC affiliate in HD on channel 231.

So, for this to work, Comcast would have to tell Tribune the "real" location of all of its channels, in addition to the UI virtual location that it tells them now. I am doubtful of the likelihood of Comcast telling anyone this information. If, for no other reason than, they like to switch stuff around every now and then without telling anyone about it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aindik said:


> When the Tribune data for a "cable ready" lineup (without a box or a cable card), says that CNN is on channel 4, "channel 4" is a known quantity. The TiVo can find Channel 4 the same way any cable ready TV or VCR could - everyone knows what frequency Channel 4 is on.
> 
> There are something like 124 actual known frequency channels. Each one is capable of holding either one analog channel, or 38 Mbps of digital content split however the cable company wants to split it up.
> 
> ...


i get all that. (except I dont think any analog system has had mapped stuff for years and years- there's a standard for exactly where analog channels are- analog 79 is always on analog 79- there's no 'virtual' channel number on analog- otherwise 'cable ready' analog tv's, vcr's and the like would never work.)

comcast basically uses ATSC-like channel numbers like 63-1. right now HBO might be on virtual channel 300. It really might be on 63-1 but the CABLECARD tells the box that 300 is really 63-1. Tivo still looks for virtual channel 300 to be HBO even if it moved to 63-2 OR if it stays on channel 63-1 but the headend decided to call it 400 and didn't update tribune. Tivo needs the channel map from tribune to work.

right now tivo knows that ATSC chanels are also 'virtual'- it knows that 4-1 really might be 26-1 and it maps it. If 4-1 shutsdown it's analog on 4-1 and moves it's signel back to 4-1 but tribune doesn't update the guide tivo gets confused and cant schedule season passes. Again tivo NEEDS the map from tribune.

So it's not a huge stretch that tivo could get a list from cable that any particular channel is located at 63-3 or something as they are used to using tribune channel maps to do basically everything.

the big question is whether comcast decides to take 15 minutes to make up those maps and give them to tribune or if they instead choose to waste hundreds of thousands in time, equipment, and resources to instead not do that but hand out cablecards to do the same thing. Aside from not being able to easily upsell by just being able to "hit a card" I see no downside to comcast at all to pick a map and give it to tribune - indeed anyone with a DTA can't be "upsold" without a truck roll either. Once they decide where to put these ~40-50 SD channels they can leave them there for years. Many people in the clear qam complaint threads say their channels stay the same for years on end. Sure maybe comcast needs to change things once or twice a year- they make a call to tribune and do it- my lineup usualy changes several times a year anyway. I dont see the huge deal.

But time will tell just how stupid comcast is- laughing. Anything stupid that cable does shouldn't shock anyone.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> i get all that. (except I dont think any analog system has had mapped stuff for years and years- there's a standard for exactly where analog channels are- analog 79 is always on analog 79- there's no 'virtual' channel number on analog- otherwise 'cable ready' analog tv's, vcr's and the like would never work.)


My analog system maps stuff. My cable-ready TVs work, but the channel numbers are all wrong. Tribune/TiVo has a cable-ready lineup for my system, with all the channel numbers in all the "wrong" places (i.e., with the real numbers not the mapped numbers).



MichaelK said:


> comcast basically uses ATSC-like channel numbers like 63-1. right now HBO might be on virtual channel 300. It really might be on 63-1 but the CABLECARD tells the box that 300 is really 63-1. Tivo still looks for virtual channel 300 to be HBO even if it moved to 63-2 OR if it stays on channel 63-1 but the headend decided to call it 400 and didn't update tribune. Tivo needs the channel map from tribune to work.


TiVo with CableCARD doesn't get the channel map from Tribune. It gets the channel map from the cable company, through the CableCARD. All Tribune knows is that HBO is on channel 300. TiVo asks the CableCARD where 300 is, and the CableCARD knows.



MichaelK said:


> right now tivo knows that ATSC chanels are also 'virtual'- it knows that 4-1 really might be 26-1 and it maps it. If 4-1 shutsdown it's analog on 4-1 and moves it's signel back to 4-1 but tribune doesn't update the guide tivo gets confused and cant schedule season passes. Again tivo NEEDS the map from tribune.


OTA stations aren't free to switch up whenever they want. They are allocated one channel from the FCC and they broadcast on it. There is a transition now, but that's not normal. After June 12, all the real OTA channels will be fixed.

And there's data inside the channel itself related to the virtual channel number, which you see the TiVo uses when you do a channel scan without a CableCARD and it finds your QAM locals. It doesn't know what they are, but it gets the channel number right.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> When the Tribune data for a "cable ready" lineup (without a box or a cable card), says that CNN is on channel 4, "channel 4" is a known quantity. The TiVo can find Channel 4 the same way any cable ready TV or VCR could - everyone knows what frequency Channel 4 is on.
> 
> There are something like 124 actual known frequency channels. Each one is capable of holding either one analog channel, or 38 Mbps of digital content split however the cable company wants to split it up.
> 
> ...


Even the analog channels are not in frequency order because of cable history;
the analog channels in frequency order are; see below:
CH
2-6 54Mhz to 88Mhz broadcast OTA channels Ending June 12th
95-99 90Mhz to 120Mhz
14-22 120Mhz to 174Mhz
7-13 174Mhz to 316Mhz broadcast OTA channels Ending June 12th
23-94 316Mhz to 648Mhz
100-125 648Mhz to 804Mhz

Each channel, when going digital, can have sub channels like 3-1 or 55-36 etc

Without cable maping to whole numbers, the system would be a problem for most people to understand.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

OTA 2-13 are not ending June 12. They'll still be around on those same frequencies, with digital broadcasts on them. Broadcast 52-69 are ending June 12.

Here in Philly our ABC affiliate is moving back to 6 on June 12, and our PBS affiliate is moving back to 12.

Way back when, cable companies used to redistribute FM radio stations on channels 95-99, which are on the same frequencies as the FM stations.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

aindik said:


> TiVo with CableCARD doesn't get the channel map from Tribune. It gets the channel map from the cable company, through the CableCARD. All Tribune knows is that HBO is on channel 300. TiVo asks the CableCARD where 300 is, and the CableCARD knows.
> 
> OTA stations aren't free to switch up whenever they want. They are allocated one channel from the FCC and they broadcast on it. There is a transition now, but that's not normal. After June 12, all the real OTA channels will be fixed.
> 
> And there's data inside the channel itself related to the virtual channel number, which you see the TiVo uses when you do a channel scan without a CableCARD and it finds your QAM locals. It doesn't know what they are, but it gets the channel number right.


First-I think we are basically on the same page- using different terms.

But the tivo only gets HALF the map from cablcard. That channel 63-1 is "virtual channel" 300. THEN it also needs the tribune guide to know that 300 is HBO. Maybe I'm using the wrong word for map but it needs BOTH parts to work.

the ATSC channels had a oppurtunity at the original cut off date to jump or stay. Then later there were some that moved at other dates. June 12 supposed all will go. Just scan the threads it's not so simple. there's several threads right now currently about 'how to get guide data to reflect the atsc changes' or stuff like that.

Tivo will scan PSIP (that data in the channel) for channels it doesn't already know where they are from the tribune data. But as you found out that only gives it the 'correct' number but the tivo really has no idea what channel it is and can't link season passes to it. I'm not sure if the channel embeds it's call letters if tivo keys off that, but i dont beleive it does because no one seems to have luck with clear qam channels.

anyway- not sure why all that matters- either comcast can give tribune/tivo the map of where their former analog channels really are now or they wont. That's the bottom line. It makes much sense to do it that way- but that doesn't mean it's a given to cable.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

gweempose said:


> I didn't realize that every TiVo gets one free card.


No, it's not that every Tivo gets one free card. It's that (at least typically -- the other responses in this thread show there are many variations) you get one "free" card for your digital cable subscription. In other words, the Cable Card *takes the place* of the "cable box" that would have been included in the price of the digital cable subscription.



MichaelK said:


> hmmm- i guess they could hand out cablecards for free and then lock them down to just allow the former analog tier.


I would *LOVE* for that to be the case, and even tried to turn in my free DTA (digital transport adapter -- basically the cheapo cable box they give 2 to because of the *cable* analog turnoff) in exchange for a cablecard. They wouldn't do it.

But I finally have a cablecard on my TivoHD.. Actually, I have 2. I have 2 S cards, because they didn't have an M card when I went in, and they grandfathered the price of the 2 S cards to be the same as one card because I complained (nicely) that I was losing channels and would have lost channels for over a week until they expected to get M cards in. I still am losing channels since I have splitters and such on my upstairs connection (even removing the splitters temporarily, I don't get all channels digital).. so IMHO, it's still a big step BACKWARDS. Even though I got the Series 3 & TivoHD due to the eventual digital transition, I still would prefer the ability to get extended basic via analog...

Anyway, I got a new bill, and I confirmed that I didn't get an additional digital outlet fee. I had *expected* to. So even with my rant above, if I can eventually get them in here so I get all the channels, I don't think it's *too* outrageous a fee. If I had to pay a digital outlet fee (or 2 if I got both Tivos with cablecards), then I would think it was definitely outrageous.

As it is, I'm probably going to buy a cable modem off of eBay (should have done that LONG ago), and returning the rented one will make the price go down the majority of the price of the cablecards..


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

Currently QAM channel numbers fall into three categories; the actual channel number that the signal is broadcast on; the number that PSIP info sends to a tuner such as TiVo's that can accept it; and the arbitrary channel number that a particular cable line-up uses which is displayed in TiVo's EPG with program info when a CableCARD is used.

A DTA in diagnostic mode displays the actual frequency that a channel is received on. Coupled with info from Wiki's listing of North American channel frequencies the corresponding channel number can be ascertained. Examples: high-def KING-TV in Seattle is currently on actual channel 85-2 on my Comcast system. Standard-def KING-TV is on 79-4. CNN is on actual channel 116-7.

PSIP numbers are often OTA 'virtual' channel numbers, but sometimes appear to be completely arbitrary. 
Examples: high-def KING-TV's PSIP channel number is 5-1. CNN is on PSIP channel 116-3. HLN is on PSIP 116-7.

Cable line-up numbers are arbitrary, but there's typically a method behind the madness.
Examples: Standard-def KING-TV is channel 5. High-def KING-TV is channel 105. CNN is channel 44. HLN is channel 45.

Here's the kicker: The best info I've seen seems to indicate that depending on a given cable system's circumstances cable systems are not required to provide unscrambled high-def versions of OTA channels to fulfill 'must carry' requirements. Right now Comcast does. Will Comcast continue to do so after its digital conversion is completed and only Limited Basic channels below ch. 29 will remain available as analog? Stay tuned!

References:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7194071#post7194071


Bimwad said:


> Sorry for the delay, TC is only an occasional stop for me.
> 
> To get into diagnostic mode, hold down the Info button until the screen comes up. You can then use the CH +/- buttons to cycle between three screens.
> 
> ...


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7209407#post7209407


fallingwater said:


> Excellent info. Thanks! :up::up::up:
> 
> The channel listing table screens on a DTA, coupled with the North American cable television frequencies linked to below, provide exactly the info needed to map unscrambled QAM channels!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_cable_television_frequencies


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7262990#post7262990


fallingwater said:


> A complicated affair indeed, where FCC rules apply completely differently depending whether a cable operator presents its line-up in an analog, digital, or mixed format. In my lay opinion if Comcast continues to offer Limited Basic chs. 2 through 28 in analog it has no obligation to provide unscrambled hi-def digital versions of these channels.
> 
> A brief core excerpt from:
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-170A1.pdf
> ...


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

It does seem to me as if every area is in fact different.

The only equipment in my home are two Tivo HD units. One unit has two single stream cards (installed at a time when M-Cards were not available) and the 2nd box has a single M-Card.

I am paying $1.50 X 2 per month for the two "additional" cable cards beyond the first one.

I am also paying a $7 "HD Converter" charge.

I have fought with Comcast to have the "HD Converter" charge dropped since I don't own a single piece of Comcast gear, but they have refused to do so.

Their rationale is that if you get even one HD program that is considered "premium" (apparently TLC HD qualifies) then you must pay the charge.

I've fought with them for months on this and finally given up. At $84 a year it's simply not worth the added stress and risk of a stroke.

I'm really hoping that we see a Tru-2-Way Tivo before year's end. That should sort a bit of this out as more and more manufacturers go this route and the Cable Co's are forced to standardize on pricing for these boxes.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> OTA 2-13 are not ending June 12. They'll still be around on those same frequencies, with digital broadcasts on them. Broadcast 52-69 are ending June 12.
> 
> Here in Philly our ABC affiliate is moving back to 6 on June 12, and our PBS affiliate is moving back to 12.
> 
> Way back when, cable companies used to redistribute FM radio stations on channels 95-99, which are on the same frequencies as the FM stations.


I thought that the FCC wanted to free up the OTA TV frequencies 54Mhz to 316Mhz after June 12th, if i am incorrect I stand corrected as i though all digital OTA TV was going to be in the UHF band after June 12th


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

fallingwater said:


> ...
> 
> Here's the kicker: The best info I've seen seems to indicate that depending on a given cable system's circumstances cable systems are not required to provide unscrambled high-def versions of OTA channels to fulfill 'must carry' requirements. Right now Comcast does. Will Comcast continue to do so after its digital conversion is completed and only Limited Basic channels below ch. 29 will remain available as analog? Stay tuned!
> 
> ...


I'm not certain but i would venture to say that the VAST majority of high-def broadcast channels are carried not because of must carry but because of retransmission consent. Likely any station that has such poor viewership that it needs to invoke must carry doesn't even have an HD channel up- did somebody just cough "pax". Certainly those HD broadcast channels watched by the majority of viewers are as a result of retransmission consent. In other words they are up and unscrambled because comcast and the broadcaster made a deal not because the broadcaster demanded it. Not sure why the broadcaster would have any less leverage in negotiations just because analog goes away.

For example I live in NYC DMA. Fat chance that comcast doesn't do what ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX tell them to do with their HD channels. The owned and operated stations would all have that same power over cable - "what? you don't want to carry our ABC HD unencrypted! Then see how your customers feel about the loss of EPSN and Disney". Even PBS shamed cable into some nationwide agreement- I'm amazed how many pbs SD and HD channels are on my system- there's 4 different PBS broadcasters with a mix of SD and HD on my head end. So I suspect for most people the HD locals will continue to be free and clear.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

lessd said:


> I thought that the FCC wanted to free up the OTA TV frequencies 54Mhz to 316Mhz after June 12th, if i am incorrect I stand corrected as i though all digital OTA TV was going to be in the UHF band after June 12th


that's not the plan- they are lopping off the top end of UHF (around 700 above ) which is close by to the current cellphone bands around 8-900mhz. Hece Verizon and ATT bought much of the rights for next generation cell cervices.

real world seems just about no stations picked the lowest channels- 2,3 maybe 4. And few went on 5 and 6. Apparently real world digital and the lower frequencies dont work well. So I wouldn't be surprised at all in a short time if once everything is cleared out that they didn't push anyone left in 2-6 someplace else and re purpose that. I believe that literally not a single station picked channel 2 or 3. (wait maybe one station in Chicago did?). So I would GUESS (not being an insider about anything related) that 2 and 3 seem almost certain to be reclaimed after they get everything situation and figure out lptv.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

My understanding is that the "locals in the clear" regulations and the "must carry" regulations are separate.

The "must carry" regulations say that a station can, if it wants to, demand that you carry it.

The "locals in the clear" regulations say that a) _if_ you are carrying any OTA station (whether because of must carry or not), you have to carry it in your lowest priced tier, and b) you are not allowed to encrypt your lowest priced tier (absent a waiver, the request for which must demonstrate that you have a serious theft of service problem).

I don't think you can encrypt a local OTA station, even if the OTA station consents.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> I'm not certain but i would venture to say that the VAST majority of high-def broadcast channels are carried not because of must carry but because of retransmission consent. Likely any station that has such poor viewership that it needs to invoke must carry doesn't even have an HD channel up- did somebody just cough "pax". Certainly those HD broadcast channels watched by the majority of viewers are as a result of retransmission consent. In other words they are up and unscrambled because comcast and the broadcaster made a deal not because the broadcaster demanded it. Not sure why the broadcaster would have any less leverage in negotiations just because analog goes away.
> 
> For example I live in NYC DMA. Fat chance that comcast doesn't do what ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX tell them to do with their HD channels. The owned and operated stations would all have that same power over cable - "what? you don't want to carry our ABC HD unencrypted! Then see how your customers feel about the loss of EPSN and Disney". Even PBS shamed cable into some nationwide agreement- I'm amazed how many pbs SD and HD channels are on my system- there's 4 different PBS broadcasters with a mix of SD and HD on my head end. So I suspect for most people the HD locals will continue to be free and clear.


Well stated and hopefully true!

A strange situation here is that KBTC, Tacoma's PBS station, about 100 miles away, officially available from Comcast only in Tacoma but not in Seattle or points north is apparently available everywhere on Comcast's system when a viewer uses a non-Comcast QAM tuner without a CableCARD. A great plus as it offers a totally different program selection than Seattle's powerhouse KCTS. :up::up::up:

I wonder if the same isn't true of CIVT, arguably Vancouver BC's best commercial station and the only Canadian station other than CBC's CBUT available here on Comcast. CBUT is officially available on Comcast in Seattle, but not CIVT.

We receive two locals, largely pitched at the Canadian audience, and most Vancouver/Victoria stations OTA here (three as NTSC/ATSC simulcasts) as well, but as far as Comcast is concerned Vancouver's in another country. (Oh, wait, it IS! )

Seattle OTA isn't receivable here. In general Seattle's digital OTA coverage is reduced from analog coverage.
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I wanted to give you guys a follow up to my earlier posts. As you may recall, I was confused about my bill, and I was wondering if Comcast has been charging me correctly. Once again, here is my bill:



In an effort to get some answers, I fired off an email to Comcast's Executive Care Department. After about a week, this is the response that I received:

*A review of your records shows that based on the below information regarding the pricing of the TiVo Series 3 cable card for multiple T3 devices; we are undercharging your account for this service:

	A customer utilizing the T3 and CableCARDs would require (2) total cards. The first T3 CableCARD would be at no charge. Just as the initial DCT on an account is at no charge today. The second card would be charged and additional $1.50, but would not incur any digital access fees (DAF) ($5.99) since it is not an additional outlet but the primary being served. The second T3 would be subject to the additional DAF. 
	If the customer has multiple T3 devices the initial would be charged as above. The second T3 would be subject to the additional DAF. 
	The first cable card would be at no charge for the second unit, based on the premise of service delivery. The second cable card would be at the $1.50 rate, plus the DAF for a total of $7.49.*

They claim that I am actually being "undercharged", but based on the information they provided to me, it looks like I'm being charged exactly what I should be. Oh well, nobody ever claimed that Comcast employees can add. The way I see it, here's the breakdown:

Comcast DVR #1 - FREE
Comcast DVR #2 - $5.99 (DAF)
THD - $5.99 (DAF)
THDXL - $5.99 (DAF)
S3 #1 - $7.49 ($1.50 for second card + $5.99 DAF)
S3 #2 - $7.49 ($1.50 for second card + $5.99 DAF)

If you add it all up, it comes to $32.95 which is just what the bill shows. It's a lot of money, no doubt about it. But at least it's accurate. I just hope my next bill doesn't get increased do to the fact that they are currently "undercharging" me.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

It's a little wierd how it's broken down in the bill, but as you say, the numbers look correct.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I wanted to give you guys a follow up to my earlier posts. As you may recall, I was confused about my bill, and I was wondering if Comcast has been charging me correctly. Once again, here is my bill:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cant follow what they are saying- laughing- But I beleive they are correct you ARE being undercharged- according to corporate policy. Here's what I beleive they actually should be charging you:

Comcast DVR #1 - FREE - (first outlet on the account is free)
Comcast DVR #2 - $5.99 (additonal outlet (AO) fee- or DAF ikn comcase-speak )
THD - $5.99 (AO- FIRST cable card ON THE ACCOUNT is free)
THDXL - $7.49 (A) + 1.50 second cable card)
S3 #1 - $8.99 ($5.99 DAF + 1.50x2 for cablecards 3 and 4 on the account)
S3 #2 - $8.99 ($5.99 DAF + 1.50x2 for cablecards 5 and 6 on the account)

But as we see every headend does there on thing and you seem to have a slightly better deal than the average comcast sub would.

I have two S3's so 4 cards. On my head end I dont even get the first card free on the account - never mind on each box. But they only charge a dollar a card. So actually i save 50 cents over the corporate policy.

but who the hec knows- if they can't even figure it out then any of us figuring it out would be a long shot anyway. So I sure could be wrong.


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## eman31 (Apr 17, 2009)

I have been going round and round with Comcast ever since I got me S3. 

I have had a HD box ever since they were first offered in my area around 8 years ago and never received a charge for it. When I decided to get the TIVO I called them up to inquire about keeping the box for on-demand and having a M-Card for the Tivo. They told me it would only cost 18.00 for card installation and 1.50 per month for the M-card. When the tech came out he asked if I wanted to switch out boxes for a newer one with HDMI. I said sure thing and he switched the boxes, installed the card and called to have them both activated. 

The next month when I got my bill I had charges for 2 HD boxes at 13.99 each a cable card at 6.00 and two digital outlet charges at 6.99 each.

The extra box charge was easy to get straightened out since they had not deactivated my old one but they are now telling me that they no longer give free HD boxes as part of the package I was on so they have to charge me for the new one I got. I was able to get that down to 6.99 for just the HD up charge but think I will end up getting rid of the box altogether since I don't watch that much on-demand anymore. 

They did take the charge for the M-Card down to 1.50 but I am still fighting with them on the digital outlet charges. I had convinced them to take them both off since I really only have one connection in the house but then got a letter saying they were adding them back on starting next month. I called them again and they said that the letter was a mistake but I will have to wait and see if they are on the next bill.

The worst part about this whole thing is that I had downgraded my package to get rid of the premium channels I was getting and to try and save some money each month but now with all of these extras I am actually paying more to get less. 

Thanks Comcast!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eman31 said:


> I have been going round and round with Comcast ever since I got me S3.
> 
> I have had a HD box ever since they were first offered in my area around 8 years ago and never received a charge for it. When I decided to get the TIVO I called them up to inquire about keeping the box for on-demand and having a M-Card for the Tivo. They told me it would only cost 18.00 for card installation and 1.50 per month for the M-card. When the tech came out he asked if I wanted to switch out boxes for a newer one with HDMI. I said sure thing and he switched the boxes, installed the card and called to have them both activated.
> 
> ...


i wouldn't hold your breath that you wont get charged one addtional outlet fee if you keep their box and the cablecard. That's 2 digital devices so they will argue it's 2 outlets.

But if you give your rented box back they should clearly charge you no AO fee.


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## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

Hi all.

I made some changes to my Comcast account back in August-- swapping a digital box for two cable cards for my new HDXL (it should have been one M-card, but they hosed it during setup) and some programming changes/discounts. I just got my first bill and am wondering about the charges. (see attached screen shot)










When I turned in my digital box and remote, I expected to see some reduction in the fees associated with the returned equipment. We used to have two digital boxes and now have one box and two S-cards (which the install tech promised would be counted as one since they had no more M's at the time). I called today to ask why, since I returned one box and remote, I was still being charged for two "Digital Receiver and Remote for $2.64". The CSR tried to explain that the first cable card was represented by the "Digital Receiver and Remote for $2.64" in the "Standard and Preferred" package, the second card was not being charged, as shown by the "Cable Card Equipment" line and the now single digital box was included in the "Digital Add'l Outlet Svc".

This just doesn't seem right, does it?

The Comcast site says:



> There is no charge for the first CableCARD that you use as it is already included in the primary outlet fee. If you have a multi-card device on the same outlet (i.e. TiVo Series 3 or two Digital Cable Tuners connected to the same personal computer), you will be charged an additional regulated fee of up to $2.50 for the second CableCARD.


So, even if the whole "you won't be charged for two cards" line from the tech was wrong. At the very least, I should be paying 14¢ less (at least) for switching from a box to card(s).

What do you all make of it?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Looks right to me. You have a cablecard which they are treating as the primary outlet and a box which has the addt'l outlet charge. Even if they switched it around, you'd probably still get the extra outlet charge for the Tivo.


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## felux (Jan 25, 2003)

Screw Comcast and their additional outlet fees. I jumped to FIOS as soon as it was in my area back in April. With Comcast I was paying over $40/month in CableCard and AO fees. I had 4 Single Stream cards in my S3 units. Yeah sure the first CC was free but the rest of the breakdown was like this.
CC 1 = free
CC 2 = 3.99
CC 3 = 3.99
CC 4 = 3.99
--------------
$ 11.97


AOs for CC
CC 2 8.99
CC 3 8.99
CC 4 8.99
-------------
$26.99

CC + AO fees = $38.94 on top of the $120 package price! Total BS fees as far as I am concerned. I would call customer service every once in a while and try to explain to them that the Tivo was a 2 tuner box and not a separate unit for each CC. Never got anywhere with that. Now with FIOS I am paying $70 less for the same service. No wonder they are loosing customers in droves here in Philly. Stupid, Stupid company


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

felux said:


> Screw Comcast and their additional outlet fees.


Thanks for confirming that the fees are as bad as I was afraid they were. When I switched from DirecTV I could choose Comcast or FiOS. I chose FiOS for many reasons, but a big one was Comcast's predilection for "nickel and diming" their valued customers. As you have shown, those nickels and dimes add up to quite a lot of money every month.


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## Emtea (Nov 3, 2005)

Just wanted to share my experience with Comcast in Atlanta area.

I bought a TiVo HD and called Comcast for a truck roll. The rep on the phone told me I'd be charged $12.99, $11.00 for the install and $1.99 for the card. A week later the guy showed up.
He installed one cable card (M card) in the TiVo, called Comcast and had them activate it. I immediately got my local HD channels but I wasn't getting the other HD channels I'm paying for. The guy told me it'd take a couple hours for the TiVo to "download" the rest of channels. Two days later I still wasn't receiving those channels. 
I called Comcast and the rep was able to activate the card over the phone and get it working. She then took off the $11 install charge. I thought I was in the clear.
Then next month's bill showed up.
I got a $26.75 charge for Install Outlet. So I called Comcast again, and the rep told me that whenever a tech installs or modify an outlet they tact that charge on your bill. I told them he did neither, and in fact the tech didn't do his job. The rep I got on the phone was not happy and tried to argue with me about the fee. After telling them repeatedly that he simply didn't do the right job they took the fee off the account. 

So that was my "pleasurable" experience with Comcast. YMMV though.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

That's good information, really though this thread has been used to discuss the recurring monthly charge for an extra outlet fee for a single TiVo Box, when Comcast views it as being two tuners and two devices on a single outlet.


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## Emtea (Nov 3, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> That's good information, really though this thread has been used to discuss the recurring monthly charge for an extra outlet fee for a single TiVo Box, when Comcast views it as being two tuners and two devices on a single outlet.


Oh my bad. I guess I didn't catch that.


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## JaxFlaGal (Sep 26, 2010)

Just remember, folks, if you *ever* had to challenge Comcast on an additional outlet fee for the 2nd card in your Tivo S3, then *always* watch your Comcast bill like a hawk, particularly if you call their customer service for *anything*, whether it's related or not.

Back in 2007 it took months (and writing to the local regulator, since Comcast was under a consent decree for their billing practices in the Jacksonville FL market) for me to get their erroneous additional outlet charges corrected - and several more months for them to get the line-up correct.

The same issue cropped up again in 2009 when I contacted customer service and added internet service with them - they added the AO charge back in on the video.

I've successfully called customer service a few times since then with no changes in my bills. Until 10 days ago. Got my bill today, and saw the $7.95 AO charge once again listed (in addition to the $1.50 second cable card fee) - and of course they got added the same day that I'd called customer service for something else.

I don't know about other markets, but at least in Jacksonville, their billing system is tied in to their customer service system, and it's very easy for them to "re-set" your charges when the CSRs are touching the *account in any way*. Fortunately, they invariably fix this every time they do it, but it's almost caused me to give up on my Tivo a few times - and I've been a Tivo die-hard since 1999. The only thing that would ever make me give up on Tivo is how exasperating Comcast is as the cable company monopoly and only HD cablecard provider in Jacksonville FL.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

JaxFlaGal said:


> I don't know about other markets, but at least in Jacksonville, their billing system is tied in to their customer service system, and it's very easy for them to "re-set" your charges when the CSRs are touching the *account in any way*. Fortunately, they invariably fix this every time they do it, but it's almost caused me to give up on my Tivo a few times - and I've been a Tivo die-hard since 1999. The only thing that would ever make me give up on Tivo is how exasperating Comcast is as the cable company monopoly and only HD cablecard provider in Jacksonville FL.


An excellent strategy on Comcast's part. I'd bet that 99% of the people don't challenge Comcast on this issue. Which means that they're still making an average of 7.95*0.99 = $7.87 on AO charges.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

Emtea said:


> The guy told me it'd take a couple hours for the TiVo to "download" the rest of channels.


The guy told you a lie. If any Comcast idiot tells anyone it's going to take longer than a few minutes, then he is lying. They throw this at you so they can get out of the house and let you deal with the fact that they don't know what they're doing. Don't let them leave until you have all your channels.

Also, watch that bill. If they take a subscription-related fee off, then something will get deactivated later. I've fought Comcast from every logical perspective on how they charge me. My bill is still wrong with 6 cablecards and 3 outlets with 4 of the cards and one of the outlets listed and zero charge, but I've got my channels and I can accept the bill (even though it is still $3.98 too high). Trust me Comcast is the immovable force.


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## MitchV (May 26, 2009)

I stumbled on this old thread after receiving my Comcast bill that now includes an additional outlet fee of $9.25 for two of my TiVos ($18.50 total).

I have three TiVos with one "M" installed in each. I looked up the CableCard fees on their website and it appears to me that Comcast has simply replaced their fees tied to cable cards with fees tied to "Additional Outlets."

In my area, you can rent a Comcast DVR for $15.95 a month. I had both a digital receiver and a Comcast DVR years ago and I was never charged an Additional Outlet fee until I bought a TiVo.

My impression is that Comcast is doing this to thwart the FCC w/regards to their cablecard practices. They don't charge for cablecards - they charge for a digital outlets! I shouldn't be paying more than a $3 a month for these cards... if I could buy and supply my own cards, I would.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

Yes, it is normal in most markets.

Have you seen their Cablecard FAQ? Are these the cablecard fees from their website you were referring to? http://customer.comcast.com/Pages/F...5c8-c8a4-44f7-96f4-def06cced0db&fss=cablecard

I believe they were charging this way even before the new cablecard rules were approved.

I am under the impression that even if you have a Comcast digital converter box you will be charged this way (unless you have a special limited time offer or triple play bundle, etc.)


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## MitchV (May 26, 2009)

a68oliver said:


> Yes, it is normal in most markets.
> 
> Have you seen their Cablecard FAQ? Are these the cablecard fees from their website you were referring to? http://customer.comcast.com/Pages/F...5c8-c8a4-44f7-96f4-def06cced0db&fss=cablecard
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the FAQ I am referring to.

My Comcast bill has been all over the place. At one time I think I was billed $3.95 for a cable card. Then it was $6.95 per outlet and this last bill it is $9.25 per outlet. I've disputed the charges on multiple occasions... they "fix it" and a few months later the charges always reappear.

Before I bought a Tivo I rented 3 digital boxes from Comcast and one of them was a DVR. I never paid an outlet fee when I was renting their equipment.

I've lived in Virginia since September of 2005. I think I may have paid full price for Comcast services maybe 6-7 months during this time. I've always been able to call them and negotiate a lower rate. I've had particularly good results using the Comcast online support... every time I "chat" with online support w/regards to my bill, they extend another promotion to me - it's the only reason I've stuck with them.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MitchV said:


> My Comcast bill has been all over the place. At one time I think I was billed $3.95 for a cable card. Then it was $6.95 per outlet and this last bill it is $9.25 per outlet. I've disputed the charges on multiple occasions... they "fix it" and a few months later the charges always reappear.


"fixing it" is probably just a way to get the customer off the phone. From what I understand, in most areas the additional cable outlet fees are required. It's an obvious evolution of the billing system to match the technology. Back in the 80s they tried to bill "per-TV", but never could get it to work because the cable wiring resided in the customer's house, and there was no way to prevent the customer from plugging another TV into the wire. Now that every device requires a cablecard, it's very easy to bill per outlet.

I know what it's like to deal with comcast, you can spend hours on the phone with them explaining to them how their own billing practices work and what you're actually supposed to be billed. The customer service people generally don't understand cablecards, and don't understand how their own fees apply to them.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

MitchV said:


> I've disputed the charges on multiple occasions... they "fix it" and a few months later the charges always reappear.


I have also suffered from the fix that doesn't stick. After numerous "fixes that didn't stick" I finally determined from talking to a local office CSR who reviewed my account and all the people and dates that had touched it that the local office attempted the fix. It may have been good for a month or even as short as a few days. Unfortunately, the auditing computer would flag my account that something was wrong and suggest the "proper" fix. Then a regional office auditor would look at the suggestion and blindly authorize it with no attempt to contact me or the CSR that issued the "fix" to find out what was going on. This resulted in changes to my charges after a few days or a month.

Finally, I contacted [email protected] and got a call back from the regional office. The regional CSR was very helpful. Unfortunately, she also could not figure out how to program the computer to "correctly" bill me as per the FAQ so she issued a $20/month credit for one year. That was about $10 more per month than what I was eligible for in overcharges. So I made out all right. We shall see what happens in August when the promo rate runs out.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

MitchV said:


> Before I bought a Tivo I rented 3 digital boxes from Comcast and one of them was a DVR. I never paid an outlet fee when I was renting their equipment.


But I think from their point of view, the cable box price (which includes a built in cable card) essentially INCLUDES the extra digital outlet fee.

I'm not claiming that's right.. and of course this fee is just trying to make them more money.


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## basanlas (Apr 30, 2011)

need some help here please.

I just replaced one Comcast DVR and one standard Comcast HD box with 2 Tivo Premieres. I also have 2 HD Comcast boxes still left in the house. I am confused at the bill. My bill was only reduced by about $12 taking out 1 Comcast DVR and one HD box. I get my basic cable paid through my homeowners association.


Digital Cable 05/01 - 05/31 17.95
Digital Preferred w/On Demand

Digital Cable 05/01 - 05/31 25.50
Additional Outlet
HDTV Service
3 @$8.50 each

HDTV Service 05/01 - 05/31 8.50

Additioal 05/01 - 05/31 1.50
CABLECARD

Cablecard 05/01 - 05/31 0.00
Basic Cable 05/01 - 05/31 0.00
Additional Outlet
3 @$0.00 each
Total XFINITY TV $53.45


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The only thing I see wrong is the $1.50/mo additional card charge. You have 3 extra outlet charges, which is correct, and the bogus HD service fee which some pay and some don't. Nothing you can do about that as long as you use their boxes, though.

But how the hell are you getting preferred cable for $17.95/mo.????


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## ps56k (Oct 6, 2006)

I've been a little confused on my Comcast billing.... western burbs of Chicago.

Initially, all I had was the Tivo HD - and the Comcast Digital Starter package.
The only charge was for the Comcast service. I was getting full HD channels, and think that was an error on their part. After the initial year or so, the fee went from like $56 to $62.... still getting HD with no extra charge.

When our son came home from school in June, I went and got a Comcast box to put in his bedroom - and the Comcast fun began. When I came home from the local Comcast office, my son said all the normal HD channels were dead... (we have none of the premiums).
It appears that the local agent/office had turned on the new Comcast box, and left the Tivo connected - but turned off the HD.

After several phone calls of trying to get the new Comcast box activated, along with getting HD turned back on - everything was finally ok - but with a price... We had never got charged for the Tivo, M-cards, outlet, HD, etc... now we had a few new charges.

Our current Comcast bill now has these amounts:

Digital Starter Package = $62.95 -- Tivo + cards + access included
HD Technology Fee = $8.95 ---------- this is new to us ----
HDTV Addtl Outlet = $7.95 ------ this is the addtl Comcast box
Franchise Fee = $4.15
FCC Fee = $0.08

Total = $84.08


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## ecoblue (Jan 2, 2009)

ps56k said:


> Our current Comcast bill now has these amounts:
> 
> Digital Starter Package = $62.95 -- Tivo + cards + access included
> HD Technology Fee = $8.95 ---------- this is new to us ----
> ...


Your area might be different (I reside in the state of Washington), but from what I understand, the HD Technology Fee is charged on a per-household basis if you have a Comcast HD Receiver or HD DVR set-top box.

Note that the fee does not (seem to) apply to households that only have CableCard devices, or a (legacy) Comcast SD Receiver or SD DVR set-top box.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

ecoblue said:


> Note that the fee does not (seem to) apply to households that only have CableCard devices, or a (legacy) Comcast SD Receiver or SD DVR set-top box.


I concur. I have two Tivos and pay no HD Technology fee for the service or cablecards installed in my boxes. I do pay an additional outlet fee.


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## lastdeadcat (Mar 14, 2005)

Cable companies are also regulated locally or at least at state level. So the same company may have different regulations to follow in different markets. You can't compare business practices in one market to another in a different city or state. The rules are different.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

However, you certainly can feel free to ask them to cite the specific regulation which impacts the rate you are questioning. You can also ask to see the published rate card.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lastdeadcat said:


> Cable companies are also regulated locally or at least at state level. So the same company may have different regulations to follow in different markets. You can't compare business practices in one market to another in a different city or state. The rules are different.


They're only regulated for basic (lifeline) cable rates, and not much else. Pretty sure that addt'l outlet charges are not.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

lastdeadcat said:


> The rules are different.


Au contraire, mon ami. Comcast has one rule and it is the SAME EVERYWHERE! F the customer PERIOD!!!!



a68oliver said:


> However, you certainly can feel free to ask them to cite the specific regulation which impacts the rate you are questioning. You can also ask to see the published rate card.


Oh the innocence. Sure. Yeah. Go ahead and ask them to cite something related to Tivo and add ons such as HD packages and such. The published rate card has NOTHING to do with their system and keeping your cards working. Tivo is Chinese to these idiots. You would think after as many years, there would be some script that would have been developed, but that would mean they actually care.

...Oh and BTW, your charges look normal. You're new charge is for the Comcast box which is supposed to be covered with the additional outlet fee unless it is a DVR. Understand that the Comcast CSR's ability to control what you receive (HD in your case) is limited to what they enter into your account. To get things to work they will throw all kinds of crap at your account just to get you off the phone. You'll deal with the fallout when the bill comes and no other CSR will have a clue about what equipment you have or what your subscription is when you call back. Think ground hog day. I have an S3, HD and premiere with CC's and my bill says I have 3 cablecards that I'm being charged for and 4 more that have $0 charge. That was after umpteen calls, several truck rolls to verify equipment and to try to get it to work. Right now...it works...knock on wood. The next time their system gets an enema...who knows. I'll just keep the cable plugged into the back of my head and realize the spoon is not really there.


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## synch22 (Dec 30, 2003)

i got rid of digital cable and no longer get the additional outlet fee but got to keep the cable cards. I am on the $14 basic with one charge for an additional cable card due to 2 tivos.


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