# Jericho Deleted by Copyright Holder



## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

I was shocked today when looking on my new S3 for Jericho to be recorded in HD and it wasn't there! So I go look in the to do list and in history it says it's deleted and has this message.

Jericho: Fallout

This recording was deleted on 9/27 at 10:29 PM because of a policy set by the copyright holder. Visit www.tivo.com/copyprotection to learn mor about how tivo complies with the copyright laws.

I checked that site out and it has:

Like most television reception equipment, TiVo DVRs recognize Macrovision copy protection technology applied by program providers. This copy protection may be applied to certain limited categories of programming (such as Pay Per View, Video On Demand, DVD or VHS sources) and requires TiVo to respond in a pre-defined manner. Macrovision copy protection rules include:

Copy Never - This content is not allowed to be recorded by a TiVo DVR. 
7 Day Unlimited - These programs can be recorded and viewed as many times as you like within 7 days of their original recording date
7 Day / 24 Hours - These programs can be stored for up to 7 days but once you begin watching the show, you must complete viewing within 24 hours. 
Program providers decide which programs within the limited categories will have Macrovision copy protection. If you believe that you are getting copy protection messages incorrectly (on programs from sources other than the limited categories listed above) please call us and let us know. Questions regarding the use of copy protection on Pay Per View, Video on Demand, DVD or VHS content would be more effectively directed to the copyright holders themselves, not TiVo Customer Support.

I called TiVo and they said they woulf report it to a special team to look into it. Has anyone else had a problem like this? Just fyi it was on CBS HD from Comcast in Connecticut. I don't have OTA becasue I live to far so all I can get is the Comcast HD channels.

-Joe


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Deleted after 1.5 hours, sounds exactly like this thread
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317875

and this
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=319028


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

weird I had the same thing on that show from Patriot Media in central NJ.

I moved all my network recordings to OTA to avoid it in the future


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

HAHA so this is what happened to Jericho on my SA8300??? I was looking for the pilot but didn't see it, so I settled for the second show. The funny thing is, on my other DVR (SA8000), Jericho was still there. I decided not to watch it since I'd watched the second show already.

Or maybe I just don't remember deleting it...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

curious what provider and location? And which CBS affiliate

The fact that big giant comcast in CT and my dink 31 town provider in NJ both screwed up on the same episode makes me wonder if maybe WCBS didn't sent out the code from their end some how????....


(acatually I'm not sure it's cbs- i have tivo for cryign out loud i have no idea what is on what channel- LOL- but regardless maybe it's the NY broadcast station?)


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## blipszyc (Aug 10, 2000)

classicX said:


> HAHA so this is what happened to Jericho on my SA8300??? I was looking for the pilot but didn't see it, so I settled for the second show. The funny thing is, on my other DVR (SA8000), Jericho was still there. I decided not to watch it since I'd watched the second show already.
> 
> Or maybe I just don't remember deleting it...


You must have deleted it because its still on my 8300 (both episodes, actually). My wife hasn't had a chance to watch it yet, so I've saved it for her. If the studios start deleting things early like this, I think I'll have to switch back to an HTPC or just screw them altoghther and download the shows online.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

it depends on where you are located wether or not the erroneous flag was set. So there's no way to tell if classicX's 8300 was effected unless you are served by the same headend.


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## JKay (Feb 8, 2001)

This DRM is an issue that has concerned me for years, ever since I saw the first Content Expired messages on my Media Center computer in 2004. When Ive expressed these concerns on other forums Ive been reassured the FCC does not permit this type of control on regular network broadcasts.

I firmly believe the powers-to-be would make every PVR disappear overnight if they could. Advertiser cant like the fact that we can fast forward through their commercials. Not to mention that many commercial are time sensitive and if you watch the show 2 weeks later, the sale at the major department store chain is over.

I like to record the night time soaps like Lost, 24, Jericho and watch 2 or 3 consecutive episodes in one evening. I am reluctant to trust the FCC in protecting this viewing procedure. And even if the FCC does stand fast, the networks and the cable companies can tamper just enough to ruin the time-shifting experience.

Now I just have to hope that TiVo cant update the software on my six year old series one and make it obey broadcast flags.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Your Series 1 is safe. They have absolutely no plans to update the software on those ever again.

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

and analog inputs are impervious to the digital flags.

A $10 'image stabilizer" from ebay can overcome any issues that macrovision on analog inputs might cause.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> A $10 'image stabilizer" from ebay can overcome any issues that macrovision on analog inputs might cause.


Only if you're using a cable box. If you're using the RF input the you're stuck with the Macrovision crap.

Dan


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I recorded Jericho on 9/27 and it let me KUID, so the flags aren't set...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Only if you're using a cable box. If you're using the RF input the you're stuck with the Macrovision crap.
> 
> Dan


yup- meant that with "analog inputs" but i guess i wasn't clear that it didn't include rf. Thanks for clarifying


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Gregor said:


> I recorded Jericho on 9/27 and it let me KUID, so the flags aren't set...


again not by your station or your cable provider. THis is an issue that happens sporadically in a somewhat random manner.

What cbs affiliate and cbale provider do you have?

I'd like to narrow down if the culprit in this case was WCBS or just the 2 differnt cable companies retransmitting that feed. Consideirng the '1 in a million' odds of 2 differnt providers nailing the same program onthe same night- I'm thinking wcbs screwed up and not the cable providers. But I'd like to figure it out one way or the other.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

CBS (KYW) in Philly and Comcast.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

CBS WFSB in Connecticut on Comcast for me. I watched the premier in standard definition on my HR10-250 and it didn't delete it. Then I got my cable cards for the S3 so I stopped the recording on the HR10 but now I put that back just in case.

-Joe


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Quick, somebody post this on SlashDot so we can get another week of diatribes against the bastards at that DMR-loving TiVo and how great it is to build your own DVR out of an old 386 computer and a homemade video capture card and how that's the only way to protect your rights against the evil, evil companies who generate content give it to you so you own it but think they can stop you from distributing it on the internet and their lackeys the cable and satellite companies and their sniveling little minions at TiVo and, oh, why did daddy let me down, he said he'd be at the science fair and he never came and they gave the award to that loser Shawn Robinson when my project was clearly better and I did it all by myself not like Shawn who obviously had help and couldn't the judges tell that he didn't make that model solar city himself and how much did that thing cost anyway?, but I'm not going to let the man screw me out of my right to fair use of my shows which essentially constitutes anything I think is fair because that's my right the supreme court said so and I'm not going to be one of those suckers who just goes along with whatever Hollywood tells me is my rights just because they are so greedy just like those bastards I work for down at ExpertWare who are driving around in brand new BMWs while they're telling us they have to cut back our department because it isn't "revenue generating" but where would they be without support, nowhere, that's where, and they didn't even make me shift manager even though I have senority over Claire they just promoted her because she's a woman, but she has to ask me how to do everything because she doesn't know the system and I'm going to quit one of these days and then they'll be really screwed, oh, Dr. Who is on.


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## Bodshal (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm dissapointed. You used numerous commas. 

Edit: And I can't type for buggery.
Edit2: Erm, and that might be a britishism that doesn't mean what you might think it means.

Chris.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Quick, somebody post this on SlashDot so we can get another week of diatribes against the bastards at that DMR-loving TiVo and how great it is to build your own DVR out of an old 386 computer and a homemade video capture card and how that's the only way to protect your rights against the evil, evil companies who generate content give it to you so you own it but think they can stop you from distributing it on the internet and their lackeys the cable and satellite companies and their sniveling little minions at TiVo and, oh, why did daddy let me down, he said he'd be at the science fair and he never came and they gave the award to that loser Shawn Robinson when my project was clearly better and I did it all by myself not like Shawn who obviously had help and couldn't the judges tell that he didn't make that model solar city himself and how much did that thing cost anyway?, but I'm not going to let the man screw me out of my right to fair use of my shows which essentially constitutes anything I think is fair because that's my right the supreme court said so and I'm not going to be one of those suckers who just goes along with whatever Hollywood tells me is my rights just because they are so greedy just like those bastards I work for down at ExpertWare who are driving around in brand new BMWs while they're telling us they have to cut back our department because it isn't "revenue generating" but where would they be without support, nowhere, that's where, and they didn't even make me shift manager even though I have senority over Claire they just promoted her because she's a woman, but she has to ask me how to do everything because she doesn't know the system and I'm going to quit one of these days and then they'll be really screwed, oh, Dr. Who is on.


As opposed to your diatribe above? IMO The content providers and the US Congress have violated the intent (and history) of copyright. The US Constitution says

_Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power ...
...
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
_

Infinite extension of copyright is unconstitutional and does not serve the public interest. If the MPAA and others of that ilk can bribe Congress then citizens should be allowed to voice their protests and to practice "civil disobedience".

But I'm sure I can read much the same thing in whatever it is you posted.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Hey I all for Cival Disobediance.. My anacestors were part of the boston Tea party...

Hmmmm What do we call this? Tivo Tea Party? Hollywood Kiss my A** party?

TexasGrillChef


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## brywalker (Nov 13, 2002)

OMFG.

Well, that seals it. I will *NEVER* get a Series 3. Thanks.

Sorry, but I will just get my TV shows through other means. I can have them in HD and never have to worry about them getting deleted. This is total BS and just takes more rights away from consumers.

**THIS*** is why there is piracy. They are trying to reduce it but they are just going to make it worse. Good job.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

brywalker said:


> OMFG.
> 
> Well, that seals it. I will *NEVER* get a Series 3. Thanks.


That's like not buying a nice car because the roads _might_ suck.

Almost EVERY time this problem is reported, it is by someone on cable. This problem has been reported LONG before the S3 came along. It happens.

While it 'could' be the Tivo mis-interpreting a broadcast flag, how come it isn't a problem for those of us currently using off-air? If it were the guide data it would effect all of us. It seems to me that a few people seem to have a problem with their Tivos and their cable company.

If you don't want a Tivo S3, don't get one. Don't blame the Tivo because your cable system _might_ suck.

I'm re-watching Jericho right now, not that it's any consolation for someone who was affected.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

This is not an S3 bug, I found another thread when I did a search for copy protection and it happens to regular TiVo's as well at random. Seems to be a problem with the cable company sending some signal. Hopefully they will fix it. I know this has never happened with my DirecTV HR10-250 or HDVR2.

This is the first time it's happened so I'm not to worried, I was able to download a really good quality torrent of the show I missed and watch it on my xbox360 through media center so all is well. I just hope it doesn't become a habit =X

-Joe


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i also beleive there are threads about it at avsforum happening to other dvr's too - not just tivo brnads. So it's clearly somethign that happens on the broadcaster or retransmitters end..


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## NOD (Aug 26, 2006)

It's ok. The 2nd episode of Jericho sucked anyway.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> i also beleive there are threads about it at avsforum happening to other dvr's too - not just tivo brnads. So it's clearly somethign that happens on the broadcaster or retransmitters end..


Did anybody ever reported the same problem happening to satellite DVRs? I don't recall reading anything like that on satellite DVR forums.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

samo said:


> Did anybody ever reported the same problem happening to satellite DVRs? I don't recall reading anything like that on satellite DVR forums.


It's merely anecdotal evidence, but I've NEVER had this problem with any of my DirecTiVos in about 4 years of use. That includes HBO. In fact I've been able to dump the output to my DVD recorder. That includes HBO.

But HBO may require more stringent anti-copy for their HD feed which I don't get.


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## Aiken (Feb 17, 2003)

I wonder if this sort of thing is a trial balloon, to see what happens if they enable the flag. I mean, really, I can't imaging it's getting set by accident. It's a setting they're never supposed to use; it's not like they just put it on the wrong show or something.

They may even mean to have the whole thing brought up in front of the courts, in hopes of getting the legal prohibition that stops them from marking things copy-never removed. If someone sues to get them to stop and the broadcasters win, that'll set precedent.


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## infinitespecter (Jul 23, 2004)

This kind of thing happened CONSTANTLY when I was using my Sony DVR. I would leave and come back only to find that my DVR hadn't recorded anything because the "Recording was not permitted by service provider." These were inconsequential episodes of Murphy Brown or The Cosby Show on [email protected] Happened once or twice to F1 races as well, though I would expect it more on a professional sports event then reruns of 15 year old TV shows.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

classicX said:


> Or maybe I just don't remember deleting it...


You don't have to rely on you memory, you can backup quite a ways in the recording history. It will definitely log if "someone in your household deleted it".


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

vman41 said:


> You don't have to rely on you memory, you can backup quite a ways in the recording history. It will definitely log if "someone in your household deleted it".


I'm not sure I believe that history, or at least not all of it. We've had a couple of times that something wasn't recorded on my HDTiVo, and the log said something like "this program wasn't recorded because someone in your household canceled it." Well, I didn't do it. The wife didn't do it. We have no kids. So unless the cats have a better grasp on the remote control than I think that message to me says "something happened, I can't figure out what, so I'm blaming it on you."


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

jrock said:


> I was shocked today when looking on my new S3 for Jericho to be recorded in HD and it wasn't there! So I go look in the to do list and in history it says it's deleted and has this message.
> 
> Jericho: Fallout
> 
> ...


It's very interesting to see the content provider would choose to enforce that level of protection on a show that isn't all that good to begin with. Even though I'm very interested in the S3, it's this kind of issue that makes me extremely wary of spending a lot of money for the device & subscription service.


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## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

optivity said:


> It's very interesting to see the content provider would choose to enforce that level of protection on a show that isn't all that good to begin with. Even though I'm very interested in the S3, it's this kind of issue that makes me extremely wary of spending a lot of money for the device & subscription service.


I think you're right to be wary, but it appears that these draconian restrictions are limited to content available through cable cards.

Anyone who buys an S3 should try hooking it up to an antenna (any old TV antenna will do). You will most likely be pleasantly surprised at how much HD content you can get for free over the air. I'd buy an S3 without cable card slots just for over-the-air use.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

pkscout said:


> I'm not sure I believe that history, or at least not all of it. We've had a couple of times that something wasn't recorded on my HDTiVo, and the log said something like "this program wasn't recorded because someone in your household canceled it." Well, I didn't do it. The wife didn't do it. We have no kids. So unless the cats have a better grasp on the remote control than I think that message to me says "something happened, I can't figure out what, so I'm blaming it on you."


Amen, brother, I've had the same issue. However, I've never been able to TOTALLY eliminate the dog.


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

sommerfeld said:


> I think you're right to be wary, but it appears that these draconian restrictions are limited to content available through cable cards.
> 
> Anyone who buys an S3 should try hooking it up to an antenna (any old TV antenna will do). You will most likely be pleasantly surprised at how much HD content you can get for free over the air. I'd buy an S3 without cable card slots just for over-the-air use.


Unfortunately I live in an area where OTA and Satellite reception are not viable. I am currently a Time Warner Digital Cable subscriber and Verizon has run fiber down my street but FiOS TV is not available yet. If the same CP authorization scheme is being applied equally to both SA8300HD-DVR and TiVo Series 3 that makes sense. Does anyone know if this is the case?

A quick question from a TiVo newbie... does the S3 support wireless networking?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

optivity said:


> A quick question from a TiVo newbie... does the S3 support wireless networking?


Yes. I haven't tried all the devices I used on the Series 2, but the Tivo Wireless G adpater works well.


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## NetJunkie (Feb 19, 2003)

optivity said:


> Unfortunately I live in an area where OTA and Satellite reception are not viable.


What do you mean, not viable? Do you mean you can't put an antenna or dish outside? You don't need to. I have a small RCA antenna on top of my receiver. It's not even extended out. That's all I needed and I am *FAR* from being in an urban area.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

NetJunkie said:


> What do you mean, not viable? Do you mean you can't put an antenna or dish outside? You don't need to. I have a small RCA antenna on top of my receiver. It's not even extended out. That's all I needed and I am *FAR* from being in an urban area.


Well, I live IN an urban area, and my OTA reception is pretty terrible. I have to manually re-aim the antenna when I change channels, which obviously isn't practical for DVR use, and even then, some channels are pretty iffy.

Fortunately, I only need to get one channel OTA (curse you, Sinclair!).


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

samo said:


> Did anybody ever reported the same problem happening to satellite DVRs? I don't recall reading anything like that on satellite DVR forums.


I have 2 HR10-250 HD DirecTV TiVo's, and 3 HDVR2 DirecTV TiVo's in my house and its never happened to them.

I also had 2 Comcast Scientific Atlanta 8000HD's before I got my S3 and used them to record Comcast High Def and that never did it. From my findings its a signal that the local cable companies control though. So Comcast is sending the signal out.

I don't know if its something to mess with the new TiVo's or not. They have been getting a lot of calls and threats about it being the law that they support the S3 so it wouldn't surprise me. Although like I said in a previous message I found other threads with the Series 2 TiVo's on cable doing the same thing in the past. I just haven't used an S2 on Comcast since 2002 when I switched to DirecTV.



sommerfeld said:


> Anyone who buys an S3 should try hooking it up to an antenna (any old TV antenna will do). You will most likely be pleasantly surprised at how much HD content you can get for free over the air. I'd buy an S3 without cable card slots just for over-the-air use.


I live on the shoreline of CT in Old Saybrook and most the locals are way up north about 50 miles away and in between me and them are several large hills. They tried setting up an OTA antenna for me with the HR10-250 and I couldn't get anything in. They said it would cost about $1500 for a super antenna setup that would really stand out on my house and have a rotar and I still may not get all 4 major networks in. I can't really afford that and I don't think my neighbors would appreciate it so I am stuck with cable and directv.

On an upside I just called DirecTV and the HR20 is now available with all networks in HD on MPG4. The problem is I called to find this out before I got the S3 and they said no it's not available in my area and they had no ETA. Now supposedly it is available at $299 or I can get the special where they replace my existing HR10-250's for $99 each and let me keep the HR10-250's and will relocate them. Catch is I can't do just one I have to do all so it would be $200.

My worry is CSR's are often wrong so I don't want to shell out $200 to find out the MPG4 locals aren't really available here. Then the big thing is the HR20 is not a TiVo, its the new DirecTV DVR software  . Other thing is once in a while there is a storm and the satellite looses signal. Only a few times a year but that was a nice thing about having the Comcast SA8000HD for locals I would never miss my network shows in HD but the DVR sucked and it only had 20 hours.

So I guess I will see how it goes. If this continues or gets worse instead of better I may try the HR20 route then end up selling the S3, I already upgraded it to a 500 gb drive so I can't return it anymore. I just hope it's something TiVo will go after and try to fix. Everyone should call them and file a report that has this problem so they can look into it and contact whoever needs to be contacted.

-Joe


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

samo said:


> Did anybody ever reported the same problem happening to satellite DVRs? I don't recall reading anything like that on satellite DVR forums.


I was unable to record the Sopranos to DVD on my Toshiba XS32 (a hard drive/DVD recorder, not a satellite DVR) because of things like this. The show didn't disappear right away, but I was unable to make a copy of it.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I don't remember many complaints about cable HD DVRs deleting shows, but seeing the S3 problem here makes me ask if this has been as much a problem with cable?


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

I really do not understand this. I guess they were just being helpful by deleting a show that was clearly not worth watching  

This is why my HDPC with MP130 and DVICO cards remains ready  

- Rich


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

With 7 day copy protection how can you go on vacation (or just had a large backlog for some reason)? If broadcasters actually implemented that, all your shows would be deleted before you saw them. Methinks Macrovision really didn't think this through; a "copy protection" scheme that screws consumers while offering nothing to copyright holders isn't a good idea. That's probably why it isn't in widespread use. I doubt broadcasters care about screwing consumers, but "7 day view" doesn't affect VCRs (who are by far the majority) at all and mandatory live viewing ("copy never") will piss off everybody so much you can't use your PR machine to spin it.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> With 7 day copy protection how can you go on vacation (or just had a large backlog for some reason)? If broadcasters actually implemented that, all your shows would be deleted before you saw them. Methinks Macrovision really didn't think this through; a "copy protection" scheme that screws consumers while offering nothing to copyright holders isn't a good idea. That's probably why it isn't in widespread use. I doubt broadcasters care about screwing consumers, but "7 day view" doesn't affect VCRs (who are by far the majority) at all and mandatory live viewing ("copy never") will piss off everybody so much you can't use your PR machine to spin it.


Totally, dude.

Where's 30 days? Where's 27 hrs so you can finish the next night?


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

Interestingly enough the episode of Jericho that was delted is now back. I have my season pass set to First Run only. The other night I checked the upcoming episodes when I realized it was deleted and there was nothing showing until the 4th when the next new episode was due to air. Well today I see it recorded Jericho in HD last night, the show I missed and it didn't delete it on me. I wonder if they realized the mistake and re aired it or is it just a fluke that it recorded a repeat as a first run when it wasn't even scheduled to be on a few days ago?

-Joe


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

They've re-aired Jericho on Saturday night the last couple weeks.


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

Shawn95GT said:


> They've re-aired Jericho on Saturday night the last couple weeks.


Then perhaps your point is I shouldnt buy a 300-hour TiVo® Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder after all?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

This is a localized problem so must be cable co specific. I've been away and have just watched that episode of Jerico on my S3 this afternoon and deleted it myself.


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## FourOhFour (Apr 4, 2001)

jrock said:


> I wonder if they realized the mistake and re aired it or is it just a fluke that it recorded a repeat as a first run when it wasn't even scheduled to be on a few days ago?


I think generally, if something is deleted unwatched, the TiVo will consider it eligible to be re-recorded as if it was never recorded in the first place (due to a conflict or whatever). Since the showing is a repeat of a recent first-run, it probably considered it first run just as it would if the earlier showing was conflicting with something.

At least, I've seen similar things happen when something expires off before I get a chance to watch it.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

FourOhFour said:


> I think generally, if something is deleted unwatched, the TiVo will consider it eligible to be re-recorded as if it was never recorded in the first place (due to a conflict or whatever). Since the showing is a repeat of a recent first-run, it probably considered it first run just as it would if the earlier showing was conflicting with something.


Hmm, on both my DirecTV receivers (HDVR2 and HR10-250) it has a 28 day rule so if it's set to first run only or repeat it will never record a show that has been recorded in the last 28 days unless the guide data is different or messed up. Usually when I look in the To Do History it will say This program was not recorded because it already has been recorded within the last 28 days even though its been watched and deleted.

-Joe


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## FourOhFour (Apr 4, 2001)

jrock said:


> Hmm, on both my DirecTV receivers (HDVR2 and HR10-250) it has a 28 day rule so if it's set to first run only or repeat it will never record a show that has been recorded in the last 28 days unless the guide data is different or messed up. Usually when I look in the To Do History it will say This program was not recorded because it already has been recorded within the last 28 days even though its been watched and deleted.


Correct. However, if it is deleted by the TiVo _un_watched, the TiVo will be willing to record another showing of it. At least in some cases.


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## jrock (Aug 27, 2002)

FourOhFour said:


> Correct. However, if it is deleted by the TiVo _un_watched, the TiVo will be willing to record another showing of it. At least in some cases.


Ahh nice. So for the networks that do repeat there shows this could save us on this problem if it ever happens again. I will keep my fingers crossed.

-Joe


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## jchapman (Mar 29, 2005)

It's not just limited to the one broadcast of "Jericho". While I don't record all of the cartoon network adult swim programing, both "Family Guy" and "The Venture Brothers" were deleted tonight by my Series 3 exactly 90 minutes after they had been recorded "because of a policy set by the copyright holder". While it's possible (if not probable) that my local cable company screwed up and sent a protection flag, the fact that the show was deleted after 90 minutes seems like a Series 3 bug; there's no 90-minute Macrovision flag mentioned on Tivo's support page.

What's the most effective way to tell my cable company to stop sending the signal if it's being sent incorrectly? What's the most effective way to get Tivo's $800 box from seeing 7 days as 90 minutes?


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

jchapman said:


> It's not just limited to the one broadcast of "Jericho". While I don't record all of the cartoon network adult swim programing, both "Family Guy" and "The Venture Brothers" were deleted tonight by my Series 3 exactly 90 minutes after they had been recorded "because of a policy set by the copyright holder". While it's possible (if not probable) that my local cable company screwed up and sent a protection flag, the fact that the show was deleted after 90 minutes seems like a Series 3 bug; there's no 90-minute Macrovision flag mentioned on Tivo's support page.
> 
> What's the most effective way to tell my cable company to stop sending the signal if it's being sent incorrectly? What's the most effective way to get Tivo's $800 box from seeing 7 days as 90 minutes?


If an SA8300HD-DVR supplied by Time Warner can record and save any program until I choose to erase it, why can't the S3? Are you saying CATV providers send a different set of CP flags to the S3 versus the SA8300 or does the S3 somehow interpret them differently? I know at one point Panasonic over-enforced CP authorization on my 50U which required a firmware update to correct, perhaps TiVo has to do the same?


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## Pab Sungenis (Apr 13, 2002)

FourOhFour said:


> Correct. However, if it is deleted by the TiVo _un_watched, the TiVo will be willing to record another showing of it. At least in some cases.


I remember finding this out the hard way back in the days of Starz On Demand on DirecTV. It would record the movie "Blow." We'd delete it unwatched. It would record it again. And again. And again.

Appreciate this feature, and hope it never comes back to annoy you.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

optivity said:


> If an SA8300HD-DVR supplied by Time Warner can record and save any program until I choose to erase it, why can't the S3? Are you saying CATV providers send a different set of CP flags to the S3 versus the SA8300 or does the S3 somehow interpret them differently? I know at one point Panasonic over-enforced CP authorization on my 50U which required a firmware update to correct, perhaps TiVo has to do the same?


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the TWC box nor the TV support Tivo To Go. I think enforcing the Macrovision restrictions on boxes where the content can't ever leave the box digitally is dumb. I've asked my neighbors with cable DVRs, and they didn't even know this problem existed. Same with DirecTV, except for the 30-day limit for PPV. I think these boxes are simply ignoring the flag because they have permission to do so.

Of course, the content CAN leave the boxes in digital format on the S2, S3s (in the future), and the DVD/DVR combo units. So these type of boxes are required by contract to enforce DRM, even when it's wrong. And building your own box won't help -- except that with Windows it's easier to "fix" this problem.

This whole DRM crap is a joke. It's poorly implemented and it treats everyone like they're criminals. Of course, everyone who watches The Family Guy is a criminal. I'm surprised the police didn't show up at your door the moment you set your Tivo to record it. And don't get me started on the despicable low-lifes who record The Cosby Show.

Or maybe it's another ploy by TWC to force you to use their DVR instead. TWC has found another way of sabotoging your Tivo! Move over, SDV, we have yet another conspiracy!


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## dlstrick (Sep 21, 2006)

optivity said:


> If an SA8300HD-DVR supplied by Time Warner can record and save any program until I choose to erase it, why can't the S3? Are you saying CATV providers send a different set of CP flags to the S3 versus the SA8300 or does the S3 somehow interpret them differently? I know at one point Panasonic over-enforced CP authorization on my 50U which required a firmware update to correct, perhaps TiVo has to do the same?


 I spoke to Tivo about the red flag problem, and it is a software problem on their end. They are supposedly sending out the update immediately and the problem should be rectified by your next update on the Series 3. I also had the head telecommunications staffer in the U.S. Senate talk with the guy in charge of broadcast flag over at the FCC. As follows:

"Talked to Troy who confirmed what you already found out. Namely, that the message may be popping up in error, but that you should be able to keep what you record. Interestingly, as Troy explained to me, because you are getting your signal over cable or satellite, it's technically not a broadcast flag issue, i.e. nothing precludes the broadcaster and the MVPD from contracting for the insertion of CGMSA or macrovision to effectuate those types of restrictions. Of course, holy hell would probably break out if they tried to do that, and consumers suddenly found out that they could not save old shows in the same way that they could under SD, but the content companies take the position that the Betamax case permits time-shifting as fair-use, but not librarying, so in theory they feel they would be in their rights if they cut such a deal with cable or satellite operators."


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I'd be glad if it's a tivo bug and gets fixed that way, but i think it's the cable companies.

I got a free month of the movie channels when I switched to cable for the series3. It seems everything on HBOHD is flagged this way. If I go to the cablecard streams the CCI bits are always popping up not as 0 (or whatever the flag and values are for copprotected....)


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

MichaelK said:


> I'd be glad if it's a tivo bug and gets fixed that way, but i think it's the cable companies.
> 
> I got a free month of the movie channels when I switched to cable for the series3. It seems everything on HBOHD is flagged this way. If I go to the cablecard streams the CCI bits are always popping up not as 0 (or whatever the flag and values are for copprotected....)


Please elaborate. Can you record/timeshift HBOHD content or not? If you can timeshift - how long they allow you to keep your recording.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

samo said:


> Please elaborate. Can you record/timeshift HBOHD content or not? If you can timeshift - how long they allow you to keep your recording.


My HBO stuff can be recorded and kept as long as I like, but I can't save it to VCR or DVD.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> Please elaborate. Can you record/timeshift HBOHD content or not? If you can timeshift - how long they allow you to keep your recording.


90 minutes then it self distructs (just like jericho did).

The cci value from hbohd is somethign like 00x03

the other movie channels seem to have a cci value of 00x02 and they record and playback fine (I guess 2 probably means somethign like dont copy? I plan to dump the movie channels so i dont have the incination to take the time to investigate further or get into a fight with the cable company)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> My HBO stuff can be recorded and kept as long as I like, but I can't save it to VCR or DVD.


can you tune to hbohd then go into the cablecard menu and look at the screens to find the cci value- see what number you get- i think 00x00 is do whatever you want. 00x03 seams to be nuke in 90 minutes.

I'm curious what number is assigned to no copy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> can you tune to hbohd then go into the cablecard menu and look at the screens to find the cci value- see what number you get- i think 00x00 is do whatever you want. 00x03 seams to be nuke in 90 minutes.
> 
> I'm curious what number is assigned to no copy.


0x02


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

that's what my other movie channels have- thanks


probably my cable company means to do 00x02 on hbohd and accidently is sending 00x03...


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## jchapman (Mar 29, 2005)

The delete-after-90-minutes problem struck again tonight; both "Veronica Mars" and "Smith" were deleted on my Series 3. I didn't notice the problem until it was too late, but the message here is "you can't trust a Series 3 to actually keep your recordings if you use digital cable." The Series 2 recorded Veronica Mars with no copyright problem of course. This is at least the 5th show and the 3rd network this has happened with since my cablecards were installed.


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## JKay (Feb 8, 2001)

I am BUMPING this thread because it is of paramount interest to me and my buying decision. I hope those experiencing the Broadcast Flag issues will continue to keep us updated on the pending software upgrade that supposedly addresses this issue.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

JKay said:


> I am BUMPING this thread because it is of paramount interest to me and my buying decision. I hope those experiencing the Broadcast Flag issues will continue to keep us updated on the pending software upgrade that supposedly addresses this issue.


+1


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

I am telling you, this is scary. I am not sure that TiVo can fix this.


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## JakiChan (Sep 20, 2006)

It's illegal to set the bit on stuff available OTA, isn't it? I was told it would be illegal for Comcast to set this bit on stuff they send via cable as well.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

JakiChan said:


> It's illegal to set the bit on stuff available OTA, isn't it? I was told it would be illegal for Comcast to set this bit on stuff they send via cable as well.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think the law only applies to OTA analog content. Looks like analog is going to be king in the DV recording industry for a while. Wonder if this issue causes DVR manufactures to create some sort of dense analog recording scheme to get around this on HD sets.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo is required to comply with the CCI data the CableCARD reports. There are basically 3 CCI values... Copy Freely, Copy Once and Copy Never. Copy Freely means that the TiVo can store it and freely transmit it to other devices. In fact with this setting the TiVo is not even required to encrypt the data on the hard drive. Copy Once means the TiVo can store it indefinetly, but it must be encrypted and can not be transmitted to another device. And Copy Never means that it can only store the program for a maximum of 90 minutes after which the program becomes unavailable on a minute by minute basis. (there is also a Copy No More value, but in the context of a TiVo it's the same as Copy Never)

It sounds like your programs are some how being marked as Copy Never. Since the CCI data is reported to the TiVo by the CableCARD digitally I seriously doubt this is a software bug. More likely it's a problem with the CableCARD itself or the cable companies head end equipment. Personally I'd suspect the CableCARD, especially if it happens on broadcast channels since it's illegal for cable companies to use any sort of copy protection on those channels.

Dan


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

I think I remember seeing CCI flag info in one of my CableCARD status screens. Does anyone know how to interpret this data? Is it, by change, the flag of the currently tunes show on that CableCARD?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The flag is set dynamically, so it can change at any time. Based on what I've read the values are...

Copy Freely = 0x00
Copy Once = 0x02
Copy Never = 0x03

Dan


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

It's unfortunate but bottom line is that this is making S3's unusable for their intended purpose. I hope it's resolved before I get around to purchasing a third party STB.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

This from the EFF Site..



> The FCC imposed some limits on DRM, but it is hard to determine the extent to which the service providers are abiding by those rules. For example, in its first review of the TiVo Series3 HD,38 CNET had trouble using the analog output to save content to a VCR or a DVD recorder. Was this a random technical glitch, or could it have been a purposeful use of selectable output control in violation of the FCC's ruling? The answer is not clear.
> 
> If you run into any problems like this, submit complaints to the FCC here:
> http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm
> ...


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