# PSA: TiVo Changes - May 2018 User Agreement & Privacy Policy Update - May 2018



## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

I didn't see a thread on the *May 2018 TiVo User and Privacy Policy Updates *(apologies if I just missed it), so figured I start one for all of us.

These changes seems important, especially for LTS (lifetime/all-in) owners. I've only skimmed through the changes and highlighted key pieces below which caught my eye. As I read in more detail, I'm adding in tidbits as I find them.

*TL;DR - TiVo appears to be making significant changes within their May 18 2018 Privacy and User Policy Updates. *All of this appears to be under the guise of required EU GPDR rule updates. A key notable change is after 05/18/18, "lifetime service" or "all-in" no longer means you're "all-in" or "all paid" for the lifetime of your TSN/Box!! NOT GOOD!
*
The Details:*

*As of 05/18/18, "lifetime" or "all-in" now means only if your device isn't discontinued (EOL) by TiVo!*
*In essence, "lifetime" or "all-in" is no longer for the "lifetime" of the equipment itself (TSN/Box), but rather whenever TiVo, at their pleasure, chooses to stop "support" a device.*

This is bad. This means only current products being sold + X number of years (usually) are "supported" and therefore will still eligible to retain lifetime service
This change effectively means TiVo can now EOL (end of life) a product at any time, with a zero notice, and zero concession.
That fully paid and working LTS (Lifetime Service) Roamio or Premiere effectively becomes a doorstop whenever a TiVo chooses
*Once a product goes EOL, LTS or not, you're SOL as written in the new policy (see below).*


For the regulars here especially feel free to jump in with thoughts, observations or if you all feel otherwise. I plan to write them and their CEO/BoD directly if needed to raise hell over this.
*TiVo User Agreement 
New as of 05/18/2018*

TiVo Corp. Legal Center
*Prior to 05/18/2018*

TiVo Corp. Legal Center
*
Notable changes (thus far) in May 2018 User Agreement:*

*NOTE: *Any red text underlined within a bullet means that specific piece is a new addition to an exiting policy. All other bullets listed are entirely new.

_*"TiVo reserves the right to discontinue previously offered features or functionality at its sole discretion and without prior notice. *TiVo is not liable to you or to any third party for any modification, suspension, or discontinuance of any feature or component of any TiVo product or service. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."_

With a new All-In Plan subscription, (a) you pay just once (rather than monthly, annually, or in some other frequency) for your TiVo service subscription, (b) your subscription lasts for as long as your TiVo device is operational (*or until TiVo discontinues support for your device, whichever comes first*), and (c) you cannot transfer your subscription to another TiVo device (except in cases of warranty repair or replacement under applicable warranty terms).
*TiVo Privacy Policy *
*New As of 05/18/2018*

TiVo Corp. Legal Center
*Prior to 05/18/2018*

TiVo Corp. Legal Center
*Notable changes observed (thus far) in May 2018 Privacy Policy (TBD)*

*TBD*
*
So, what can we do?*
A) Nothing. Hope the problem solves itself. 
B) Something. Contact Tivo per *their* request for *our* feedback. See below.

As written in Tivo's "Hey, it's a Friday, so let's "check the box" and send out our policy updates over Mothers Day weekend and hope us peasants don't notice all the changes", *surprisingly*, *TiVo DOES, superficially at minimum, actually want to hear from us!!.... So let's express our concerns!*
*Per the email received from TiVo -->* "_If you have any feedback, please feel free to contact us. We will review all feedback we receive and will take action as appropriate. Please note that while we will do our best, we may not be able to respond to these requests individually"_
*Of course, Tivo's copywriter failed to include preferred method of contact (by design I'm sure) so, here.... I'll fix that for them.*
*[email protected]*
This may bounce back as another user in another thread recently stating this email no longer works, hilariously, despite it still being listed still even in the most recent policy updates.

If the above bounces, all other email addresses are fair game in my opinion
If a company is too lazy, incompetent or intentionally deceives and/or can't be bothered to tend to legal notice emails while ensure operational resdiensss of their own policies, ALL BETS ARE OFF AND ALL EMAILS ARE FAIR GAME. See below.
*Other email addresses to attempt only if privacy mailbox bounces back: *
*[email protected]*
[email protected]

[email protected]
Others to be added depending on response/outcome
Feel free to post any replies to this thread


*UPDATE #1: See Attached Comparison of Old vs. New Policies (Diff & Redline):*

So we can all digest how bad this, I've diffed the old and new user agreement
*RED = Removed*
*Teal/Green = Updated or Inserted*

See attached "redline" documents
One summary document (TLDR version)
One detail document with inline changes (for those of us that like playing in the "weeds" and details)

These are systematically generated, so my apologies in advance for formatting issues or otherwise
Privacy policy is next.


----------



## bleech2 (Mar 16, 2014)

I saw this message when i turned my TV on this morning and feared the worst. Sure enough it's true. I'm sure this piece of news isn't a coincidence: TiVo Exiting the Box-Making Business


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

I saw this notice yesterday (via email) and, while not exactly reassuring, it doesn't strike me as particularly alarming.

I could be wrong (and wouldn't put anything past Rovi), but it sounds like pretty typical CYA legalistic verbiage to protect the corporation against breach-of-contract lawsuits for not continuing to provide service to PLS DVR's despite technological advances that render the software obsolete or incompatible with programming sources.

Realistically speaking, given the ongoing changes in the cable TV industry we don't really expect to be using our TiVo's QAM tuners 10 years from now, do we? But "lifetime" implies that TiVo is responsible for providing programming service for them as long as the box is still mechanically operable.

OTOH, we should be mindful of what happened in Australia last year. I don't think that model is applicable in our market, but it is a cautionary tale nonetheless.


----------



## Barnstormer (Sep 23, 2015)

Is the change in Lifetime service legal? It sounds like something that will fill the pockets of a number of lawyers.


----------



## Bwana (Apr 10, 2016)

Lawsuits are Rovi's primary business, I'm sure they know exaclty what the legal cost will be and how to best phase out these products.

In addition to the lifetime service issue, I am concerned about a couple of other things this allows them to do. Namely, shut down services like the Mind RPC (pyTivo, kmttg, tivo desktop, etc), and force every new garbage UI they come up with on people so they can show that they are using those patents that are their bread and butter.

Of course, the upside to constantly disapointing customers is reducing your support costs and legal exposure as they flee.


----------



## Barnstormer (Sep 23, 2015)

My one word answer: Tablo

And I am sure others can think of other one word answers.


----------



## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Seems logical to me... doesn't make any sense to support discontinued boxes (forever). Software wise it has always been a service and as such subject to change. TiVo is a business and I think "it's silly" to look at it one-sided. They are going to do what's best for TiVo and in most cases that's automatically best for the majority of their customers too. If it wasn't they would no longer be in business...


----------



## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Barnstormer said:


> Is the change in Lifetime service legal? It sounds like something that will fill the pockets of a number of lawyers.


Is there a change to Current ALL-In? I got up to that point until I GLAZED. It does not say anything about current boxes that are All-In and it says you can still transfer All-In if you sell your tivo to someone. Am I missing something?

If they get rid of the ability to transfer recordings to a PC (I use KMTTG), then there will be a War. That fuels my YouTube page!!! 

Also you really can't miss this message. They sent 2 emails (the same) and every box had a message that you had to delete TWICE!!!

*LAWYERS (Spit!)*


----------



## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

samccfl99 said:


> Is there a change to Current ALL-In? I got up to that point until I GLAZED. It does not say anything about current boxes that are All-In and it says you can still transfer All-In if you sell your tivo to someone. Am I missing something?
> *)*


*I just added a comparison and diff document for all to review. This shows what language changed.*

Got the same message on my box. Only once though.

*Your concerns over ability to transfer LTS/AI to another owner I also share after reading this paragraph.*










So if your box isn't operational, they won't let you transfer? WTF?


----------



## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

Charles R said:


> Seems logical to me... doesn't make any sense to support discontinued boxes (forever). Software wise it has always been a service and as such subject to change. TiVo is a business and I think "it's silly" to look at it one-sided. They are going to do what's best for TiVo and in most cases that's automatically best for the majority of their customers too. If it wasn't they would no longer be in business...


While I generally agree with what you're saying as there are many technological reasons why old hardware can't be supported forever, let's not forget who sold what to who here....Tivo sold us lifetime service for a box so long as that individual piece of hardware continued to work. If I was month to month, I'd agree with you completely here.

Many of us made substantial investments based on THEIR promise for lifetime service for a high upfront investment. It's not my problem if this is an inconvenient truth that Rovi chose to ignore when they acquired Tivo.


----------



## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

Barnstormer said:


> Is the change in Lifetime service legal? It sounds like something that will fill the pockets of a number of lawyers.


If no one complains or challenges, by default yeah. Kinda like if a "a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear, does it still make a sound?" 

This year, every company is pulling this crap left and right. Tivo is no different. Every company is trying to reneging on deals they've made in years prior. They love using TOS/UA/PP as the cowardly way to reneg on their commitment to users and by the time there is an issue, it's long past they've made changes.

The problem is, like many of us, myself included, the day to day is already filled with enough crap, and more crap being obscured and rammed down this path doesn't help. They are gambling on the fact we don't read these updates. I do. I love details.

And notice they like to send this crap out always on Friday's and before important weekends. Like Mother's day. Or Memorial Day. It's all a by design strategy to keep us peasants ignorant to what the overlords at the Tivo/Rovi glass tower are doing unbeknownst to most of us.


----------



## mmf01 (Jan 31, 2011)

Barnstormer said:


> My one word answer: Tablo
> 
> And I am sure others can think of other one word answers.


YouTube TV. Not one word, but for $40 (and users being grandfathered into pricing by Google) and all the channels I actually care about (minus the crap I don't), I'm seriously considering it.


----------



## HuskerMike (Jun 16, 2014)

I believe that I have purchased my very last TiVo ever. I can't imagine buying a product from a company that treats customers like this. 
I think the best thing we can do, is to steer all of our friends and relatives away from TiVo from this day forward. Friends don't let friends be manhandled by these types of corporate shenanigans.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

samccfl99 said:


> Also you really can't miss this message. They sent 2 emails (the same) and every box had a message that you had to delete TWICE!!!


What email sent twice? And what TiVo box message? Those dang electrons, constantly malfunctioning . . . .


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

Charles R said:


> Seems logical to me... doesn't make any sense to support discontinued boxes (forever). Software wise it has always been a service and as such subject to change. TiVo is a business and I think "it's silly" to look at it one-sided. *They are going to do what's best for TiVo and in most cases that's automatically best for the majority of their customers too.* If it wasn't they would no longer be in business...


The guide quality (ever since the transition away from GraceNote) and the software bugs (since the 8/21/17 update) that were introduced come to mind, but that aside, I hope you're right. If they decide to EOL any devices, I hope they'd do what they did when Series 1 was EOL.


----------



## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mmf01 said:


> *I just added a comparison and diff document for all to review. This shows what language changed.*
> 
> Got the same message on my box. Only once though.
> 
> ...


Technically, LTS/AI service iis for the box only. If it does, so does LTS/AI service. This was why old Series 1 boxes with LTS prior to January 2000 or so had a one-time transfer available. But otherwise normally, you cannot buy a new TiVo and transfer LTS/AI to it. About the only exception is if you send the box in for warranty service, and TiVo replaces it, but there is a transfer fee for the LTS which only applies to the fact it was replaced.

On rare occasions, TiVO will make a special offer to transfer LTS/AI from one box to another, for a small fee. Like in 2017 where they did it a few times - buy a new Bolt from TiVo (at full price) and transfer the existing LTS to it for $99. For these transfers, TiVo requires the old TiVo to be working, which they qualify as "connected to the TIVo service within the past N months". in order to get the discount. For this one case, yes, they will require your box to be operational with proof.

But remember, normally you are not allowed to transfer LTS/AI to a new box.



TKnight206 said:


> The guide quality (ever since the transition away from GraceNote) and the software bugs (since the 8/21/17 update) that were introduced come to mind, but that aside, I hope you're right. If they decide to EOL any devices, I hope they'd do what they did when Series 1 was EOL.


Series 1 was EOL'd over a decade before the Gracenote switch - it was EOL'd when Series 2 came out and software updates stopped shortly afterwards. They still got regular TiVo service purely because of compatibility. They're basically saying they have a right to stop the service at any time, given it was a particularly bad year where they had to stop service to a number of units - Series 1 due to Gracenote transition, Australian boxes due to provider contract not being renewed, etc.

Basically the language exists because of practicality - no service is forever. After all, what are Australian TiVo owners supposed to do? It's out of TiVo's control what happened (and the TiVos were horrendously obsolete by then - I don't think they even supported digital broadcast), but just because they had LTS there was an obligation to support them, until there was no practical way to do so.

It boils down to practicality - Series 1 units probably couldn't be economically converted to Gracenote, and there were very few units that were still alive and kicking and connecting to TiVo, so supporting them was deemed uneconomic. Sure they probably had tons of units still registered on accounts, but the number of real units working and not gathering dust was far lower


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Barnstormer said:


> My one word answer: Tablo
> 
> And I am sure others can think of other one word answers.


If you ignore all the Cablecard users, sure.


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

I find it interesting nobody seems to have noticed this line (but there's like three different threads talking about the notice, maybe I've missed it):

"We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."

TiVo has said people will not be forced to Hydra, but legally they can do it. They promise they won't, but they can at any time, and the only recourse is to lose your recordings and go back to TE3. Which they can then override again at any time. Which they promise not to do. But legally nothing stops them. All detailed in a document changing prior promises.


----------



## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Not good, whenever I see a "policy change" with almost any company it's usually good for the company, bad for the user. Used to be to had to "accept" the change for it to be active for you, now most just say "by continuing to use our service you agree to the new conditions". Yeah, I have a lifetime service Tivo, if I don't like the new conditions I have to stop using the box to protest? I have a bad feeling they want to stop supporting S2/S3 and maybe Premieres. With this new policy they could just call it EOL and do NOTHING for active lifetime S2/S3/Premiere users? I hope that is not true.............. Already some features have been going away, that seems to be covered in new policy also. All in all a lot of bad news for owners/users as far as I can see and if you continue to just USE your Tivos you "accept" these changes? Geez................................


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

stile99 said:


> I find it interesting nobody seems to have noticed this line (but there's like three different threads talking about the notice, maybe I've missed it):
> 
> "We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."
> 
> TiVo has said people will not be forced to Hydra, but legally they can do it. They promise they won't, but they can at any time, and the only recourse is to lose your recordings and go back to TE3. Which they can then override again at any time. Which they promise not to do. But legally nothing stops them. All detailed in a document changing prior promises.


That line was already in the prior user agreement and has always been the policy so nothing to discuss. 

I wouldn't say TiVo has promised anything regarding not forcing the Hydra update. Tivo Ted has indicated they are not planning on doing it and even though I prefer the gen3 UI and don't want to move to Hydra due to the missing upload capability, I would not be surprised if TiVo's plans change down the road at some point (and if so hopefully it's years from now). 

Scott


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mmf01 said:


> *Your concerns over ability to transfer LTS/AI to another owner I also share after reading this paragraph.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That says nothing about transferring a TiVo to another user (along with the LTS/AI that's associated with it).

(c) has always been in the user agreement so no change there with this update. They've always only allowed LTS/AI to another TiVo only under warranty service (no charge) or in some cases with repair service by TiVo (basically replacement) with a transfer fee (excluding the special deals with purchase of new hardware that are very infrequent). I don't think there is a guarantee on the repair/replacement service though.

Scott


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

HerronScott said:


> That line was already in the prior user agreement and has always been the policy so nothing to discuss.
> 
> I wouldn't say TiVo has promised anything regarding not forcing the Hydra update. Tivo Ted has indicated they are not planning on doing it and even though I prefer the gen3 UI and don't want to move to Hydra due to the missing upload capability, I would not be surprised if TiVo's plans change down the road at some point (and if so hopefully it's years from now).
> 
> Scott


Maybe we should get TiVo_Ted to readdress this issue for our own comfort.

I enjoy Encore. Sometimes good is good enough, and if people like Hydra, that's good for them. I hope both remain options for many years to come.


----------



## Barnstormer (Sep 23, 2015)

As I read the new TOS the LifeTime service is good until the box no longer works, or Tivo decides it's no longer worth life time service through the avenue of non-support. That is not what I understood when I bought the Lifetime service. 

It must be nice to be able to change a contract, and not have to worry that the other people who signed have to agree to the changes. (Using the Tivo after a certain date is not agreeing, IMHO). 

Why not just sell a 5 year Guide Service and then we at least know what we are buying. Of course, given the current way of thinking, I suppose that later they could just change the TOS to say all 5 year plans are now three year plans. Or all 5 year plans expire on 12/31/19 even if the five years are not up.

IOW, the contract with Tivo/Rovi is not worth much.

Trust - Hard to Earn, Easy to Lose.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Consumer apathy has allowed companies to mutate their business models to where the customer exists for the convenience of the company and that is simply the reality of the way things are today.

In many areas we have to choose the lesser of the evils instead of the best(?) choice for our needs. We are at the mercy of what is best for the company with less thought being given to the cost of customer acquisition or churn and more to short term profit or pumping up the company value in hopes of being bought out.

The only power we have as consumers is to VOTE WITH OUR WALLETS and until we do (in volume) we have to accept what these companies will allow us to have and like it...


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

just4tivo said:


> The only power we have as consumers is to VOTE WITH OUR WALLETS and until we begin to do that we'll have to accept what these companies will allow us to have and like it...


Absolutely. But it's just that, not much in the way of equivalent options here . . . . Just need to hope for the best.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

So the message I received is if you continue using you agree to the new terms. Usually folks give you 30 days to review ToS changes, but putting that aside, what if you don't agree to the new terms?

Whenever a previous cell phone company used to change our ToS (or modify the "surcharges" even by a little) that was an opportunity to exit contract commitments with no penalty (24-mo phone ETF), since the cell phone company unilaterally changed the contract.

I don't know how many are on annual subscriptions, but you should be able to get out of your commitment if you don't agree to the new terms and a obvious pro-ration period is already built-in. It may take some arguing though. Perhaps you've soured on TiVo and the ToS change was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

With lifetime you'd have to go more out of the box because you'd have to argue some pro-ration period that isn't as obvious (or full return) of service to get any benefit.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

If you want to continue with your quality DVR, there really aren't any options . . . .


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> That line was already in the prior user agreement and has always been the policy so nothing to discuss.


I didn't say the line is new. What is new is the situation, so there most certainly is indeed something to discuss. The situation is now there is a new version of the software, one that could be called controversial in the least, a version that TiVo has said they currently have no plans to force on people. But (as noted), there is absolutely nothing stopping them. And if they do change their minds, as explicitly stated, they can do so with no warning. People who have deliberately rejected Hydra could wake up to it tomorrow. They can uninstall it again, only to wake up the next day and it's back.

Like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually change their minds. I would be surprised if they don't, quite frankly. And that's really the point. They can say, today, that there are no immediate plans to do so, and that's probably true in fact. But the bottom line is you have already agreed to have it thrust upon you at any time with no notice.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> . . . . Just need to HOPE for the best.


Mike, with respect, HOPE got us into the predicament we're in now.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

just4tivo said:


> Mike, with respect, HOPE got us into the predicament we're in now.


Well, unless you want to develop a competing product on Kickstarter or Indiegogo, or have Congress and the president nationalize TiVo  , I'm afraid that I can't really think of much of an alternative . . . . Sigh, capitalism.


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

TKnight206 said:


> Maybe we should get TiVo_Ted to readdress this issue for our own comfort.
> 
> I enjoy Encore. Sometimes good is good enough, and if people like Hydra, that's good for them. I hope both remain options for many years to come.


It seems like you guys are doing a good job discussing this topic. But, I'll weigh in anyway. Just because our user agreement states that we *can* do something, doesn't automatically mean that we *will* do something. When we have made major changes in the past, it has always been for what we believe to be justifiable business reasons. The EOL of Series 1 devices is a good example. They were so old and limited, it became impractical for us to support them any longer. And, our active Series 1 customer base had declined to very small numbers at that point.

Series 2 and Series 3 devices are still working fine, and with the exception of the dial-up network they do not present us with any major challenges. For all of the sky-is-falling concern around LS/PLS/AIP, there are still many S2/S3 customers paying monthly and even annual. While we would certainly love for these customers to upgrade to newer devices to get access to our latest features and functionality, it wouldn't make business sense to turn off a large number of paying customers.

And, @TKnight206, I will reiterate to you for at least the 4th time that there is no reason why we would require an TE3/Encore customer to upgrade to TE4/Hydra. We will likely push future bug fix releases onto your box, but that is something we have always done. Sometimes this is because there is something in the release that we feel is important for you to have (time change fixes, etc.), and sometimes it's because we want as many people on the same release as possible in order to give you the best support we can.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

TiVo_Ted said:


> It seems like you guys are doing a good job discussing this topic. But, I'll weigh in anyway. Just because our user agreement states that we *can* do something, doesn't automatically mean that we *will* do something. When we have made major changes in the past, it has always been for what we believe to be justifiable business reasons. The EOL of Series 1 devices is a good example. They were so old and limited, it became impractical for us to support them any longer. And, our active Series 1 customer base had declined to very small numbers at that point.
> 
> Series 2 and Series 3 devices are still working fine, and with the exception of the dial-up network they do not present us with any major challenges. For all of the sky-is-falling concern around LS/PLS/AIP, there are still many S2/S3 customers paying monthly and even annual. While we would certainly love for these customers to upgrade to newer devices to get access to our latest features and functionality, it wouldn't make business sense to turn off a large number of paying customers.
> 
> And, @TKnight206, I will reiterate to you for at least the 4th time that there is no reason why we would require an TE3/Encore customer to upgrade to TE4/Hydra. We will likely push future bug fix releases onto your box, but that is something we have always done. Sometimes this is because there is something in the release that we feel is important for you to have (time change fixes, etc.), and sometimes it's because we want as many people on the same release as possible in order to give you the best support we can.


Thanks, Ted. It's good to hear the word from the mouth, rather than guessing at the other end (or something like that).  And, of course, you understand the concerns--I used to shop at this place called Radio Shack, for my Polaroid camera film cartridges . . . .

And so what you're really saying, in part, is, people should get their friends to go out and buy Series 2 and 3 TiVo boxes and pay for on-going subscriptions, to keep that revenue stream live and the product lines positive on the balance sheet . . . .


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Thanks for the clarification, Ted. For further clarification on my end, my intent wasn't to say that TiVo WILL force Hydra, just that they CAN (pretty much what you said, but coming from the other direction). The language is there, but that doesn't mean that is exactly what will happen. If/when/if Hydra is forced, I imagine it will be in the future, after having gone through several more iterations (again, the one we're on now should have been the first one (IMO), looking forward to building on that) and hopefully some removed features returned, as well as maybe a new (folders) toy or two (folders) added in along (folders) the way. And, as you note, with more notice than is legally required.

Also, thanks for the reassurance that bug fixes/minor updates will still happen. I'm specifically thinking of the albatross that is Daylight Saving Time. At least two states were muttering a couple months ago about eliminating it, and I'm sure there will be more muttering next time it rolls around, so from the bottom of my heart, thank you for explicitly mentioning time change fixes.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Practically speaking, this is no change at all because we've already seen TiVo EOL the S1 so the precedent is set that the company can do it. We can spend a few hundred posts here talking about it but it really is a big nothing burger.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> It seems like you guys are doing a good job discussing this topic. But, I'll weigh in anyway. Just because our user agreement states that we *can* do something, doesn't automatically mean that we *will* do something. When we have made major changes in the past, it has always been for what we believe to be justifiable business reasons. The EOL of Series 1 devices is a good example. They were so old and limited, it became impractical for us to support them any longer. And, our active Series 1 customer base had declined to very small numbers at that point.
> 
> Series 2 and Series 3 devices are still working fine, and with the exception of the dial-up network they do not present us with any major challenges. For all of the sky-is-falling concern around LS/PLS/AIP, there are still many S2/S3 customers paying monthly and even annual. While we would certainly love for these customers to upgrade to newer devices to get access to our latest features and functionality, it wouldn't make business sense to turn off a large number of paying customers.
> 
> And, @TKnight206, I will reiterate to you for at least the 4th time that there is no reason why we would require an TE3/Encore customer to upgrade to TE4/Hydra. We will likely push future bug fix releases onto your box, but that is something we have always done. Sometimes this is because there is something in the release that we feel is important for you to have (time change fixes, etc.), and sometimes it's because we want as many people on the same release as possible in order to give you the best support we can.


As always your insight is appreciated and valuable.

That said, too often in today's business world (not limited to TiVo in any respect) the words CAN and WILL are seen by companies as interchangeable and decisions made with respect to what "we believe to be justifiable business reasons" are too often not to the benefit of the customers and THAT is what we fear.

I've been with TiVo for over 3 years and have been mostly satisfied. Still have stupid guide/channel problems that TS can't seem to grasp and rarely resolves but the hardware has been reliable and you're still the best OTA solution.

I wish your marketing people would realize that there is a considerable customer base who wants to move to OTA (with and without supplemental streaming) and that TiVo should use its OTA experience, established market footprint, and name recognition to embrace that market rather than just being one of the many solutions.

Not everyone has/wants a cell phone and there are lots of people out there with land lines and that is a continuing revenue stream.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Practically speaking, this is no change at all because we've already seen TiVo EOL the S1 so the precedent is set that the company can do it. We can spend a few hundred posts here talking about it but it really is a big nothing burger.


Well, yes, the company did it before, but offered $ compensation; and it's unclear that TiVo had a legal right to stop providing service for Lifetime customers. With the TOS change, matters likely would be otherwise, as least for new Lifetime customers and according to the new TOS terms.

Also, with all due respect, it wasn't a nothing burger to some people who were adversely affected, some of whom posted here and pressed cases with TiVo, to get some form of satisfaction.


----------



## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

Barnstormer said:


> As I read the new TOS the LifeTime service is good until the box no longer works, or Tivo decides it's no longer worth life time service through the avenue of non-support. That is not what I understood when I bought the Lifetime service.
> 
> It must be nice to be able to change a contract, and not have to worry that the other people who signed have to agree to the changes. (Using the Tivo after a certain date is not agreeing, IMHO).
> 
> ...


I'd like to see a guarantee that the service will be good for 10 years with a proration for falling short. Although, I'd settle for the option to transfer to a new device for free with the only cost being the box itself, provided we're given both options: a proration or a free transfer. Something not unlike Mattress: 25 Year Limited Warranty

As an example, if I pay $550 for the All-In on any device in 2018 and TiVo decides to no longer support my device in say 2025, I'd hope for a 30% refund ($165 refund) or permission to transfer my All-In to a new device that I pay for ($0 transfer fee plus cost of new equipment).

10 years is just an example. I don't know what's reasonable.

As for working equipment that has connected at least once within the last six months, I'd say a prorated credit to be used on a new device would be fair. If it's reasonable to expect the device to last 10 years, and the device is EOL, then having a credit to buy a new device equal to the remaining years left would be fair.
As an example, if someone buys a 1TB Bolt for $300 and it has an activation date in 2017, and TiVo decides to EOL in 2024, then a credit of 30% ($90) toward the purchase of a new box would be fair in my opinion. This is separate from the All-In subscription.


----------



## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

HuskerMike said:


> I believe that I have purchased my very last TiVo ever. I can't imagine buying a product from a company that treats customers like this.
> I think the best thing we can do, is to steer all of our friends and relatives away from TiVo from this day forward. Friends don't let friends be manhandled by these types of corporate shenanigans.


I expressed my concerns about Rovi business tactics in this forum about a year ago. I postponed adding another Bolt+ to my line up and I an now very glad I waited.

The future of TV is streaming and the consumer will pay much more. Free OTA TV will be left with a test pattern then nothing.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> It seems like you guys are doing a good job discussing this topic. But, I'll weigh in anyway. Just because our user agreement states that we *can* do something, doesn't automatically mean that we *will* do something. When we have made major changes in the past, it has always been for what we believe to be justifiable business reasons. [...]


Thanks Ted!


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

just4tivo said:


> ...
> Also, with all due respect, it wasn't a nothing burger to some people who were adversely affected, some of whom posted here and pressed cases with TiVo, to get some form of satisfaction.


The news was a nothing burger, not the decision to stop supporting a specific box.



just4tivo said:


> ...
> it's unclear that TiVo had a legal right to stop providing service for Lifetime customers


It isn't murky at all. TiVo has the right. Armchair legal analysis here won't change that.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

TKnight206 said:


> I'd like to see a guarantee that the service will be good for 10 years with a proration for falling short. .


While nice for consumers, the accountants would freak out about the revenue recognition impacts to such a policy.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And who knows how the landscape will change in X years? As an extreme example, what happens if a new form of compression is introduced (Half the file size! Twice the quality! Brought to you by PiedPiper!) that is incompatible with existing DVRs? Should TiVo be legally required to support a machine that can't work?


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> And, @TKnight206, I will reiterate to you for at least the 4th time that there is no reason why we would require an TE3/Encore customer to upgrade to TE4/Hydra.


There is no reason *today*. But one can never say never. All one can say is that it's currently highly unlikely. And that's as good as we're going to get, so thank you.

Although it is unlikely, I have seen companies renege on their promises dozens of times due to unforeseen circumstances.

For example, if the numbers from Rovi's finance department take an unexpectedly bad turn, and Rovi had to lay off a bunch of engineers as a result, then Rovi wouldn't have enough resources to support both TE3 and TE4. TE3 could simply not be updated anymore, which would be fine. Unless something unexpectedly came up that absolutely had to be fixed. Then the Tivos would all have to be upgraded to TE4 and those that couldn't would probably be EOLed.


----------



## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

ah30k said:


> Practically speaking, this is no change at all because we've already seen TiVo EOL the S1 so the precedent is set that the company can do it. We can spend a few hundred posts here talking about it but it really is a big nothing burger.


Yup. But where's the fun in that?


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And who knows how the landscape will change in X years? As an extreme example, what happens if a new form of compression is introduced (Half the file size! Twice the quality! Brought to you by PiedPiper!) that is incompatible with existing DVRs? Should TiVo be legally required to support a machine that can't work?


There's a big difference between upgrading a device to support new features and killing off a perfectly working device for business reasons. I do not expect my Bolt to support ATSC 3.0. I do expect it to support ATSC 1.0 until it dies. I do not expect that a future software upgrade would disable ATSC 1.0 functionality.


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ah30k said:


> The news was a nothing burger, not the decision to stop supporting a specific box.
> 
> It isn't murky at all. TiVo has the right. Armchair legal analysis here won't change that.


That's misleading. The question was, was Rovi obligated to compensate customers for violating their own TOS when they discontinued the S1? That was murky, which is why Rovi offered that deal to active users of those boxes. I no longer expect such offers from Rovi when they discontinue the S2, S3, and Premieres sometime next year.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> It isn't murky at all. TiVo has the right. Armchair legal analysis here won't change that.


Yeah, you're probably right that it's not murky: I think it likely that TiVo _doesn't_ have the right to prematurely turn off Lifetime service, in the face of an initial contract that guaranteed it. And this isn't based on "armchair legal analysis" but an understanding of contract law and the concepts of legal consideration and illusory contracts.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> ... I think it likely that TiVo _doesn't_ have the right to prematurely turn off Lifetime service, in the face of an initial contract that guaranteed it.


Please please please point me to where TiVo guaranteed it.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Please please please point me to where TiVo guaranteed it.


Check the user agreement: for the box's (not your) lifetime. Hence, the name of the service. Not the "you pay us a boatload of money for service for the lifetime of your box but oh, wait, we can stop service anytime we want" service.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> Check the user agreement: for the box's (not your) lifetime. Hence, the name of the service. Not the "you pay us a boatload of money for service for the lifetime of your box but oh, wait, we can stop service anytime we want" service.


So you can't point me to where TiVo guaranteed anything. Figured.

You don't need to actually go look for it, but I'm going to call out statements that aren't true. TiVo never guaranteed what you are claiming.


----------



## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Some of you guys gals are really silly arguing about nothing. I guess thats what the internet if for arguing and streaming crap


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

foghorn2 said:


> ... I guess thats what the internet if for arguing and streaming crap


and calling for class action law suits.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> So you can't point me to where TiVo guaranteed anything. Figured.
> 
> You don't need to actually go look for it, but I'm going to call out statements that aren't true. TiVo never guaranteed what you are claiming.


Sorry, I am busy heading out the door and couldn't look up the user agreement for you--I thought you could. Your link and the language (emphasis added, to point out the specific language):

https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html


> ⁴ *An All-In Plan (a) lasts for the lifetime of your TiVo device (not your lifetime)*, (b) is not transferrable to another TiVo device (except in certain warranty replacement/repair cases), and (c) may exclude certain TiVo offerings (e.g., for third-party content, particular applications, cloud-based services, etc.) for which TiVo subsequently may elect (in its sole discretion) to charge separately and which are not made generally available to all customers who have activated TiVo service on a particular TiVo device.


And now, lest you post something and don't hear back from me right now and want to "call me out" for that, I'm out the door (and now late, lol).


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> And now, lest you post something and don't hear back from me right now and want to "call me out" for that, I'm out the door (and now late, lol).


I don't see any guarantee there. Especially given that four lines below your quote is this


> All features, functionality and offers are subject to change or withdrawal at any time without notice


Maybe we just have different ideas of what a guarantee is.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> There is no reason *today*. But one can never say never. All one can say is that it's currently highly unlikely. And that's as good as we're going to get, so thank you.
> 
> Although it is unlikely, I have seen companies renege on their promises dozens of times due to unforeseen circumstances.
> 
> For example, if the numbers from Rovi's finance department take an unexpectedly bad turn, and Rovi had to lay off a bunch of engineers as a result, then Rovi wouldn't have enough resources to support both TE3 and TE4. TE3 could simply not be updated anymore, which would be fine. Unless something unexpectedly came up that absolutely had to be fixed. Then the Tivos would all have to be upgraded to TE4 and those that couldn't would probably be EOLed.


Let me jump in here, as a software product manager for a data management product used by very large corporations:

It is not difficult to support two different versions of software, particularly when they perform the same functions. As far as I can see, both TE3 and TE4 are built on top of the same core DVR code. The core that does recording, plays back recordings, supports trick-play, etc. seems identical in both UXs. SO, in large part, that code gets maintained no matter what happens. It is just higher level UI code that differs. Let me give you a similar example from my own products:

Several years ago, we contracted with a supplier of data matching code (to allow two sources of data to be correlated). After years of successful integration with our product, the vendor was acquired and quadrupled our annual license fee. So, we removed that vendor's product and replaced it with a different matching engine. The point is that we have MANY customer using the old code. If they have a bug, we fix it. But no new features go into that code. So if a customer wants the ability to, say, match on a date range, then they need to upgrade to the newer matching engine. However, we ship both engines, but only turn on the old engine for customer that had licensed it. This is a minor issue in terms of developer load...I'd say we spend less than 1% of the aggregate developer resources we have supporting the older software.

The situation is similar for Encore/TE3 and Hydra/TE4 users. TE3 will continue to function the way it does today. If bugs are found, they'll be fixed. Some new features, however, may only appear in Hydra. If you want them, you'll need to switch.

One last point. Amidst all the discussion of MAY or CAN versus WILL, everyone seems to have missed one other word: NEW...



> With a *new* All-In Plan subscription, (a) you pay just once (rather than monthly, annually, or in some other frequency) for your TiVo service subscription, (b) your subscription lasts for as long as your TiVo device is operational (*or until TiVo discontinues support for your device, whichever comes first*), and (c) you cannot transfer your subscription to another TiVo device (except in cases of warranty repair or replacement under applicable warranty terms).


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Re-posting from a similar thread:

For grins, I went back and looked at our service agreement from 02/06/2002:
"*Changes to TiVo Service*. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."

And, to save you the time, here was the PLS definition at the time:
"*Definition of Lifetime Service*. Subject to the terms of this agreement, if you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder ("Product Lifetime Service"), you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic TiVo Service during the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend or family member. The TiVo Service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any other Recorders you may purchase."

"*Using the TiVo Service*. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product."

I don't believe that these recent updates/clarifications have changed our policies nearly as much as people are suggesting.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Re-posting from a similar thread:
> 
> For grins, I went back and looked at our service agreement from 02/06/2002:
> "*Changes to TiVo Service*. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."
> ...


Thank you, Ted!


----------



## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

TiVo_Ted said:


> For grins, I went back and looked at our service agreement from 02/06/2002:
> "*Changes to TiVo Service*. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."
> 
> And, to save you the time, here was the PLS definition at the time:
> "*Definition of Lifetime Service*. Subject to the terms of this agreement, if you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder ("Product Lifetime Service"), you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic TiVo Service during the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend or family member. The TiVo Service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any other Recorders you may purchase."


My take in plain English... if you have Lifetime we won't charge you any additional fees for as long as we continue to offer the service.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> As far as I can see, both TE3 and TE4 are built on top of the same core DVR code. The core that does recording, plays back recordings, supports trick-play, etc. seems identical in both UXs.


I don't know if that's a valid assumption. There are comments in these forums stating that TE4 has large data differences from TE3. That, apparently, is the reason TE4 can't be downgraded to TE3 without a clear/delete everything.

If maintaining the older data structures becomes expensive, it's conceivable that TiVo might drop future development/maintenance for it. Speaking as a software developer who is often subject to the whims of project managers, I've frequently seen "management" deciding that supporting an older version isn't worth the cost and that forcing users to upgrade for continued support is a more economically viable path... even if that means giving the users the upgrade for free. In this case, the "upgrade" is already free.

I'm not saying that this will happen with TiVo's TE3. TiVo has, in the past, had a pretty good track record in regards to older hardware and software support. Hopefully, they'll continue that tradition. However, I think it'd be foolish to bet any money on that.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Look at the company's history in this regard... The only end-of-life action they took was for the S1 and that was the direct fallout from the metadata server change from Gracenote to Rovi**. In order to keep the S1 going TiVo would have had to exert lots of energy to make code changes. This was clearly a case where exerting the energy wasn't a viable option for the company. Given the low numbers, they chose to EoL and, while not obligated, tossed in a financial bone to impacted users.

It wasn't a case of just general low impact maintenance. It would have needed a significant coding effort to make the migration.

** Please lets not make this a rant about meta data


----------



## gfweiss (Feb 28, 2005)

The notice ends by saying that using your device after May 18th signifies acceptance of the new agreement. Well, I sure don't agree to the terms, but since my LTS is already paid for what rational choice do I have other than to continue using my TiVo if I want to watch TV?

I missed out on last years opportunity to transfer my S2 LT (in service since 2004) to a new Bolt for $99, but I've been patiently waiting, hoping for the offer to come back again. I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye now and expect TiVo to simply discontinue the S2 in the near future. Any comments?


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

gfweiss said:


> The notice ends by saying that using your device after May 18th signifies acceptance of the new agreement. Well, I sure don't agree to the terms, but since my LTS is already paid for what rational choice do I have other than to continue using my TiVo if I want to watch TV?
> 
> I missed out on last years opportunity to transfer my S2 LT (in service since 2004) to a new Bolt for $99, but I've been patiently waiting, hoping for the offer to come back again. I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye now and expect TiVo to simply discontinue the S2 in the near future. Any comments?


Since you do not agree to the new TOS email to [email protected] and in the subject line put
"Notice of Dispute" and include your name , address, phone, and TiVo account.

Tell them you don't agree with the new TOS and want the money you originally paid refunded since they have breached the original contract you had with TiVo when you bought your STB and paid for Lifetime Service.

That will get you a pretty prompt reply and a phone call from someone in the executive department... well at least it used to.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

gfweiss said:


> I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye now and expect TiVo to simply discontinue the S2 in the near future. Any comments?


Yes, I have a comment... your premise has zero basis in fact and you're getting yourself worked up either out of irrational fear or just to gin up some excitement.


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

just4tivo said:


> Tell them you don't agree with the new TOS and want the money you originally paid refunded since they have breached the original contract you had with TiVo when you bought your STB and paid for Lifetime Service.


We've already established that TiVo can change the ToS at will without the consumer consent (not a breach at all) so if you don't agree you can cease using it and maybe sell it. You probably have a 0.000% chance of getting any money back and any attempt to do so is a waste of time.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

gfweiss said:


> The notice ends by saying that using your device after May 18th signifies acceptance of the new agreement. Well, I sure don't agree to the terms, but since my LTS is already paid for what rational choice do I have other than to continue using my TiVo if I want to watch TV?
> 
> I missed out on last years opportunity to transfer my S2 LT (in service since 2004) to a new Bolt for $99, but I've been patiently waiting, hoping for the offer to come back again. I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye now and expect TiVo to simply discontinue the S2 in the near future. Any comments?


Why do you think you would have to kiss that idea goodbye? The old ToS was similar. So they could still have a special to move people off older boxes and transfer lifetime. Just like they have in the past. Nothing has really changed.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ah30k said:


> I don't see any guarantee there. Especially given that four lines below your quote is this
> 
> Maybe we just have different ideas of what a guarantee is.


I guess I see a statement saying, "lifetime is lifetime" is a guarantee. But I also agree that if push came to shove in this hypothetical world that TiVo_Ted would not let occur  , TiVo likely would want to try to rely on the "we can change this agreement at any time and in any way we want" provision that you point to. It's just that I don't think that a court would allow TiVo to do so as to the term that forms the core basis for the agreement, lifetime service (and as opposed to for a subsidiary term, such as the removal of a subsidiary feature such as folder play from Hydra). If matters were otherwise, TiVo likewise could say, after a year (or, heck, after a month or a day), "well, Lifetime folks, Lifetime is now over," effectively rendering the Lifetime contract largely meaningless and an illusory contract, which the law and courts are disinclined to do. 



ah30k said:


> We've already established that TiVo can change the ToS at will without the consumer consent (not a breach at all) so if you don't agree you can cease using it and maybe sell it. You probably have a 0.000% chance of getting any money back and any attempt to do so is a waste of time.


Yeah, I just don't agree that TiVo can do so, as to the core term at the center of the agreement. See above. 
​


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Why do you think you would have to kiss that idea goodbye? The old ToS was similar. So they could still have a special to move people off older boxes and transfer lifetime. Just like they have in the past. Nothing has really changed.


And totally apart from the legalities involved, it can be a good marketing idea and goodwill generator.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Yeah, I just don't agree that TiVo can do so, as to the core term at the center of the agreement. See above.


There's a bunch of ex-customers in England and Australia that wish that were true.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

I don't know about England (IIRC that was a TiVo direct market) but in Australia the boxes weren't sold and supported by TiVo but rather by a franchisee, so that is not really a precedent.

Look, ever since the Rovi merger people have been looking for some nefarious motive for everything the company does. TiVo would like nothing better than to have their DVRs sell for peanuts and be able to provide free service. But, unfortunately, we live in the real world and there are costs for everything. TiVo is making moves to be a viable business over the long term. That includes clearer and more specific terms, as well as an examination of where they spend and receive value. We should all WANT them to make a healthy profit from their products - it is the best insurance that they will be able to support the equipment for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

GaryD9 said:


> I don't know if that's a valid assumption. There are comments in these forums stating that TE4 has large data differences from TE3. That, apparently, is the reason TE4 can't be downgraded to TE3 without a clear/delete everything.
> 
> If maintaining the older data structures becomes expensive, it's conceivable that TiVo might drop future development/maintenance for it. Speaking as a software developer who is often subject to the whims of project managers, I've frequently seen "management" deciding that supporting an older version isn't worth the cost and that forcing users to upgrade for continued support is a more economically viable path... even if that means giving the users the upgrade for free. In this case, the "upgrade" is already free.
> 
> I'm not saying that this will happen with TiVo's TE3. TiVo has, in the past, had a pretty good track record in regards to older hardware and software support. Hopefully, they'll continue that tradition. However, I think it'd be foolish to bet any money on that.


The speculation on changes to data structure have to do with the database of recordings and guide data maintained by the software, not the disk structure. If they had made changes to the disk format none of the MFS tools would work.


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> I guess I see a statement saying, "lifetime is lifetime" is a guarantee. But I also agree that if push came to shove in this hypothetical world that TiVo_Ted would not let occur  , TiVo likely would want to try to rely on the "we can change this agreement at any time and in any way we want" provision that you point to. It's just that I don't think that a court would allow TiVo to do so as to the term that forms the core basis for the agreement, lifetime service (and as opposed to for a subsidiary term, such as the removal of a subsidiary feature such as folder play from Hydra). If matters were otherwise, TiVo likewise could say, after a year (or, heck, after a month or a day), "well, Lifetime folks, Lifetime is now over," effectively rendering the Lifetime contract largely meaningless and an illusory contract, which the law and courts are disinclined to do.
> 
> Yeah, I just don't agree that TiVo can do so, as to the core term at the center of the agreement. See above.
> ​


I'm with you. Just because something is in a TOS doesn't mean that's the end of it. If parts of the TOS are not legal, are unclear, or they conflict with the service that was advertised, then those parts of the TOS are not binding. Not to mention the bad publicity it would generate.

That's why it's now "all-in" and why Rovi even further clarified that in their recent TOS.

For example, Rovi still has the "cannot modify or disassemble hardware" clause in their TOS which is illegal as written. You have the legal right to repair your Tivo yourself.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> The speculation on changes to data structure have to do with the database of recordings and guide data maintained by the software, not the disk structure. If they had made changes to the disk format none of the MFS tools would work.


You previously stated:


> As far as I can see, both TE3 and TE4 are built on top of the same core DVR code. The core that does recording, plays back recordings, supports trick-play, etc. seems identical in both UXs


That has nothing to do with the disk format (also known as the file system.) Remember that this is in reference to the burden of maintaining previous versions of the software. No one suggested that the file system changed. In fact, the irony is that it'd be easier to maintain multiple versions if only the file system changed, as that's usually abstracted in the kernel.

On the other hand, if the higher level data structures (different database columns, values, etc) are vastly different, the burden to maintain multiple versions becomes greater. Then the code "closer" to the UI has to be different to retrieve, represent, react to, and store different data elements.

Again, I'm not suggesting that TiVo won't maintain the different versions, or even claim to have any inside info on what might have changed between versions. You stated that "the core that does recording.... seems to be identical", and I'm stating that they might not be as identical as you're suggesting. Of course, all either of us can do is speculate at this point.

(I also wonder if this data structure change might be part of why transferring of recordings no longer functions.)


----------



## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ah30k said:


> We've already established that TiVo can change the ToS at will without the consumer consent (not a breach at all) so if you don't agree you can cease using it and maybe sell it. You probably have a 0.000% chance of getting any money back and any attempt to do so is a waste of time.


That's yet another murky area. Generally speaking, you're incorrect. Whenever your MSO or cell phone carrier changes their TOS, if you dispute it you can immediately cancel the contract without an ETF and you can force them to unlock your phone.

And if you prepaid for service (i.e. All-In), you are entitled to get a prorated refund. The question is how long is All-In service really good for. It's at least three years, maybe more like five?


----------



## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> Generally speaking, you're incorrect. Whenever your MSO or cell phone carrier changes their TOS, if you dispute it you can immediately cancel the contract without an ETF and you can force them to unlock your phone.
> 
> And if you prepaid for service (i.e. All-In), you are entitled to get a prorated refund. The question is how long is All-In service really good for. It's at least three years, maybe more like five?


He's got an S2 unit from 2004 (18 years old). Since I am wrong, how much do you think he could get back?


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Diana Collins said:


> One last point. Amidst all the discussion of MAY or CAN versus WILL, everyone seems to have missed one other word: NEW...


Thank you for pointing this out Diana. Our intent here was to further clarify the definition for NEW all-in-plan purchases, not for prior purchases.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> There's a bunch of ex-customers in England and Australia that wish that were true.


I emphasize that this all is just academic speculation--there is no indication here that anything negative is happening (although, it did occur with the EOL'ing of Series 1 boxes, albeit for a technological reason--but, having said that, many consumers felt that TiVo handled that well and that they even came out ahead, in the end, given the age of the Series 1 boxes). But I don't know if the situation in those countries was the same as in the U.S. In the end, creditors often will suffer if a company goes out of business with outstanding obligations that are not going to be covered (and that's been a question with TiVo from day 1: would it be successful in these fast-changing times such that Lifetime would make $ sense).

My only question here, prompted by others' posts, has been whether a company, as a legal matter, unilaterally can change contract terms after the fact in a fashion that changes the core essence of that contract, through the use of a "we may change terms" provision. Again, if that's the case and at the extreme, that would mean that a company selling a service contract for the Lifetime of an accompanying product could send out a letter, the month following the sale and upfront payment, saying, "Your Lifetime service contract now is only good for 2 months." I just don't know that such a revision to a contract's core provision would be upheld at court.

Nor, of course, is TiVo doing that now.​


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Diana Collins said:


> The speculation on changes to data structure have to do with the database of recordings and guide data maintained by the software, not the disk structure. If they had made changes to the disk format none of the MFS tools would work.


I have seen some indications very recently that Bolts on the latest version of Hydra can't auto-format drives correctly (even the factory drive). Not sure about Roamios, but at least I can test that scenario once I get off of my lazy butt and try it with my backup Pro.

In both cases the MFS file system doesn't seem to have changed, but we may have to go back to TE3 to format a drive before switching back to Hydra if you're so inclined.


----------



## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

My interpretation of the Lifetime agreement is based on TiVo not charging any additional fees "for the lifetime" of the device while in service. Not the device can be used for an unlimited period of time since the agreement allows them to stop said service (at any time). Strictly money not time related.



TiVo_Ted said:


> For grins, I went back and looked at our service agreement from 02/06/2002:
> "*Changes to TiVo Service*. ...TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."
> 
> "*Definition of Lifetime Service*. Subject to the terms of this agreement, if you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder ("Product Lifetime Service"), you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic TiVo Service during the lifetime of that Recorder...


----------



## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

HuskerMike said:


> I believe that I have purchased my very last TiVo ever. I can't imagine buying a product from a company that treats customers like this.
> I think the best thing we can do, is to steer all of our friends and relatives away from TiVo from this day forward. Friends don't let friends be manhandled by these types of corporate shenanigans.


I got TiVo for one reason: wishlists.
Dish Network used to have Dish pass, a similar function, and they were sued by TiVo and lost. They paid Tivo $5 per subscriber (added to his bill) per month to TiVo to keep the service for several years.
Today's Dish Hopper does not have the service, so TiVo is the only one that has Wishlists and it's such a great feature, that TiVo was worth it to me ... just for that!

Now that we have Vox, you can say any movie or TV show from the past and make a bookmark, onepass or wishlist for it.
The type-in search only looks at the current guide ... that's another reason to not only keep TiVo ... but to keep Hydra.


----------



## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thank you for pointing this out Diana. Our intent here was to further clarify the definition for NEW all-in-plan purchases, not for prior purchases.


Might I suggest there is an easier more obvious way to clarify that. Simply add the line that all-in purchases prior to May 18 use the previous agreement.


----------



## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thank you for pointing this out Diana. Our intent here was to further clarify the definition for NEW all-in-plan purchases, not for prior purchases.


Yeah, we had a whole discussion about that a few days ago beginning here.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I just read all 4 pages of this thread and IMHO I will keep using my two TiVos and Minis until a problem comes up, the TOS means nothing until a problem comes up, I have one Bolt Plus and one Roamio, both with Hyda, My only other option is the Comcast DVRs. If I was starting without any DVRs the Comcast DVR option would have to be looked into, if in 10 years or so I have to go the Comcast DVR so be it, the loss of the TiVo investment will not force me to sell my home or not eat, and at this time my Comcast package includes one Comcast DVR, so I turn my cable card and get the Comcast DVR at no extra cost. Replacing the Minis (and the other DVR) will cost me something with Comcast. Nothing much last forever in electronics.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> I don't know about England (IIRC that was a TiVo direct market) but in Australia the boxes weren't sold and supported by TiVo but rather by a franchisee, so that is not really a precedent.


My point is that these are the rules we've always lived under; TiVo can take away service like the Series 1 or features like multiple Season Passes for a program any time they want, and our only recourse for a long time has been arbitration by somebody in the pay of TiVo. (Although read through the story of the guy in England how brought a suit against TiVo if you want to feel better about arbitration.)

Nothing lasts forever. I intend to enjoy my TiVos as long as they work, and migrate to whatever comes next just as I migrated from BetaMax VCRs when the time came; I hope with better grace than some of the whiners in forums other than TCF. (I would never disparage anyone on TCF; at least not until my last warning expires.)


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

I take this slight change in the UA is likely to cover TiVo far better because of a looming End Of Support for the S3 DVR's, of which there are still more than a few out there. I have three S3's doing work in my situation. They are key in our set-up of mulit-room along with S4 and S5. I would be a very big loss if S3 were abruptly put to EOL by TiVo. I have not upgraded to S6 because for us it is unnecessary and the new pricing for All-in too expensive.

Of course, the new UA does mean that TiVo can begin major deprecation of the S3's such as killing network transfers when they feel like it, and there is NOTHING any of us can expect in return. Also, the UA makes it clear that we should not expect anything in return if TiVo abandons the S3, while in the past, TiVo had been willing to offer a somewhat affordable upgrade path. Don't expect such a path at all now. I really hope I am wrong because the S3's are still very well performing DVR's, and can still interact or be useful in a home LAN with later gen TiVo's--and I use my S3's a lot.

I really think this TiVo turning the corner, the first step to completely either selling or just shutting down all TiVo DVR portion of the business, including MSO's. This latest push on the retail front was unexpected, but clearly represents TiVo giving it one last good try before calling it quits on retail, and the result has NOT been encouraging.

The new UA is not only in preparation of killing all S3's, it can also be seen as the necessary step before killing ALL retail TiVo's everywhere, like the Douwd and the Husnock. Once TiVo turns out the lights on retail (and their new partners may do so in short order), they have this new UA to protect themselves and anyone who dares to counter legally can only do so through Arbitration, forget the far more considerate public courts.


----------



## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

mmf01 said:


> YouTube TV. Not one word, but for $40 (and users being grandfathered into pricing by Google) and all the channels I actually care about (minus the crap I don't), I'm seriously considering it.


None of those OTT MVPD's are making any money, and it will be years before they do, and they will probably be just as expensive as the traditional cable and sat before they start making money, but before that time, some new tech for in-home entertainment will be the shiny new thing, and less expensive.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> I take this slight change in the UA is likely to cover TiVo far better because of a looming End Of Support for the S3 DVR's, of which there are still more than a few out there. I have three S3's doing work in my situation. They are key in our set-up of mulit-room along with S4 and S5. I would be a very big loss if S3 were abruptly put to EOL by TiVo. I have not upgraded to S6 because for us it is unnecessary and the new pricing for All-in too expensive.
> 
> Of course, the new UA does mean that TiVo can begin major deprecation of the S3's such as killing network transfers when they feel like it, and there is NOTHING any of us can expect in return. Also, the UA makes it clear that we should not expect anything in return if TiVo abandons the S3, while in the past, TiVo had been willing to offer a somewhat affordable upgrade path. Don't expect such a path at all now. I really hope I am wrong because the S3's are still very well performing DVR's, and can still interact or be useful in a home LAN with later gen TiVo's--and I use my S3's a lot.
> 
> ...


Except that: TiVo_Ted has said, here, that the new, revised terms are for purchases from here (as of May 18) on out, not backwards looking as to earlier purchases; and, if TiVo wanted grounds to EOL a TiVo Series, some people believe that TiVo always has had the grounds (I disagree), in the "we can change the terms of this agreement" language that's appeared in the various agreements in the past and now going forward--but that language certainly can be seen as allowing TiVo to eliminate features.


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Series3Sub said:


> I take this slight change in the UA is likely to cover TiVo far better because of a looming End Of Support for the S3 DVR's, of which there are still more than a few out there. I have three S3's doing work in my situation. They are key in our set-up of mulit-room along with S4 and S5. I would be a very big loss if S3 were abruptly put to EOL by TiVo. I have not upgraded to S6 because for us it is unnecessary and the new pricing for All-in too expensive.
> 
> Of course, the new UA does mean that TiVo can begin major deprecation of the S3's such as killing network transfers when they feel like it, and there is NOTHING any of us can expect in return. Also, the UA makes it clear that we should not expect anything in return if TiVo abandons the S3, while in the past, TiVo had been willing to offer a somewhat affordable upgrade path. Don't expect such a path at all now. I really hope I am wrong because the S3's are still very well performing DVR's, and can still interact or be useful in a home LAN with later gen TiVo's--and I use my S3's a lot.
> 
> ...


I have seen variations of this theory for 18 years. With the exception of soaring dialup network costs, Series 3 boxes are not a huge cost for us since we are no longer testing software releases on them. There is no business case to justify EOL'ing them now. I don't see the logic behind your speculation here.

Also, why would we retroactively kill a feature like network transfers? Our service agreement all the way back to Series 2 has stated that we have the right to do this if we want. But, we haven't. We changed over from transfering to streaming in our latest release, but we did not remove the feature from old boxes. So, what makes you think we would do this now?


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I have seen variations of this theory for 18 years. With the exception of soaring dialup network costs, Series 3 boxes are not a huge cost for us since we are no longer testing software releases on them. There is no business case to justify EOL'ing them now. I don't see the logic behind your speculation here.
> 
> Also, why would we retroactively kill a feature like network transfers? Our service agreement all the way back to Series 2 has stated that we have the right to do this if we want. But, we haven't. We changed over from transfering to streaming in our latest release, but we did not remove the feature from old boxes. So, what makes you think we would do this now?


See my post earlier: Ever since the merger people have been predicting doom and gloom. Some were even predicting it BEFORE the merger, based on rumors about Rovi. Some people just like being unhappy.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Diana Collins said:


> See my post earlier: Ever since the merger people have been predicting doom and gloom. Some were even predicting it BEFORE the merger, based on rumors about Rovi. Some people just like being unhappy.


Hell, people have been predicting doom and gloom since the days Replay was going to eat TiVo's lunch!

Which doesn't mean doom won't happen. But it does mean I'm a lot more likely to wait and see if it DOES happen than just take somebody's word for it...


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> See my post earlier: Ever since the merger people have been predicting doom and gloom. Some were even predicting it BEFORE the merger, based on rumors about Rovi. Some people just like being unhappy.


Predictions aside, I am unhappy about the guide descriptions which waste a lot of space with bloviating words that are not needed. I am also unhappy unhappy about the GUI direction which also wastes a lot of space. Those are not predictions but fact.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Also, why would we retroactively kill a feature like network transfers? Our service agreement all the way back to Series 2 has stated that we have the right to do this if we want. But, we haven't. We changed over from transfering to streaming in our latest release, but we did not remove the feature from old boxes. So, what makes you think we would do this now?


While I think that a lot of these worries are a bit dramatic, could you maybe address PC push transfers being broken on Encore for the last year or two? It was something useful we had that was retroactively killed, as you say, and there is natural concern of pull transfers going away too.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Diana Collins said:


> See my post earlier: Ever since the merger people have been predicting doom and gloom. Some were even predicting it BEFORE the merger, based on rumors about Rovi. Some people just like being unhappy.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hell, people have been predicting doom and gloom since the days Replay was going to eat TiVo's lunch!
> 
> Which doesn't mean doom won't happen. But it does mean I'm a lot more likely to wait and see if it DOES happen than just take somebody's word for it...


As Rob mentioned, there have been "dire concerns" since day 1--it took me awhile to get my first TiVo box (a Series 2) over the concern as to whether TiVo would still be around after more than a few years, to provide the needed service for it. Not unjustifiable, it seems to me, in a newly-created tech. field and with a startup company.

But, everything needs to be kept in its_ proper proportion_.


----------



## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

zalusky said:


> Predictions aside, I am unhappy about the guide descriptions which waste a lot of space with bloviating words that are not needed. I am also unhappy unhappy about the GUI direction which also wastes a lot of space. Those are not predictions but fact.


Yeah, the guide descriptions are over the top...we laugh at them. What would you have them put in that "wasted" space? Ads?


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> Yeah, the guide descriptions are over the top...we laugh at them. What would you have them put in that "wasted" space? Ads?


Probably, like cast credits, they would put the Spanish or French descriptions.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Yeah, the guide descriptions are over the top...we laugh at them. What would you have them put in that "wasted" space? Ads?


Dont give them ideas!  That aside - I will just take the old style TV Guide style descriptions and maybe better accuracy or even IMDB descriptions. I dont need bloviating adjectives, voted upon stars are good enough.


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Speaking of bad/useless descriptions and Spanish/French descriptions, I wish there was a way I could tell my TiVo yo no hablo español when searching. For example, did you know that not only was Helen Hunt in Twister, she was in the Spanish-dubbed version as well? I know, shocking, right? She's in the French-dubbed version too, but I really have no desire to see Tornade. Thanks, though.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

stile99 said:


> Speaking of bad/useless descriptions and Spanish/French descriptions, I wish there was a way I could tell my TiVo yo no hablo español when searching. For example, did you know that not only was Helen Hunt in Twister, she was in the Spanish-dubbed version as well? I know, shocking, right? She's in the French-dubbed version too, but I really have no desire to see Tornade. Thanks, though.


Ooh, Tornade--sounds like the sexy version with lots of bikini briefs and Speedos . . . .


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Ooh, Tornade--sounds like the sexy version with lots of bikini briefs and Speedos . . . .


OK, you've convinced me, I'll watch! B-)


----------



## johnfasc (Dec 24, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> As always your insight is appreciated and valuable.
> Not everyone has/wants a cell phone and there are lots of people out there with land lines and that is a continuing revenue stream.


No hyjack meant but, ooma takes care if the phone thing just fine!


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> While I think that a lot of these worries are a bit dramatic, could you maybe address PC push transfers being broken on Encore for the last year or two? It was something useful we had that was retroactively killed, as you say, and there is natural concern of pull transfers going away too.


I will look into this. The slow erosion of MRV was more atrophy than intent. TiVo Desktop was EOL almost 5 years ago. TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan. Let me see what I can find out.


----------



## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

johnfasc said:


> No hyjack meant but, ooma takes care if the phone thing just fine!


My land line cell phone reference was meant to point out that many don't want to move to new tech for the sake of new tech or pay the cost of new tech or might not be in an area where broadband is readily available or too expensive.

That land lines work fine for them just as OTA works well for them so they have little interest in streaming video content off the internet. That (no cord) OTA market is sizeable and TiVo has the experience, name recognition, and the hardware to take a BIG chunk of that revenue stream with little effort rather than discard/ignore it in favor of what might be next.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I will look into this. The slow erosion of MRV was more atrophy than intent. TiVo Desktop was EOL almost 5 years ago. TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan. Let me see what I can find out.


Making Hydra available with full reversionary ability (i.e., no less of recordings) will get TiVo an 80-90+% trial percentage.

Making Hydra available with full TTG ability, between TiVo boxes (no online intervention needed) and TiVo box <-> PC (i.e., both directions) nets TiVo another 25% adoption rate.

Making Hydra available with folderplay nets TiVo a further 15%.

Making Hydra available with Live Guide nets another 20%.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I will look into this. The slow erosion of MRV was more atrophy than intent. TiVo Desktop was EOL almost 5 years ago. TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan. Let me see what I can find out.


Please consider fixing whatever broke push/TTCB in the summer of 2016, if it's not a major undertaking. Certainly not an obligation, but it would be greatly appreciated by folks here who use pytivo in the absence of Desktop.


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I will look into this. The slow erosion of MRV was more atrophy than intent. TiVo Desktop was EOL almost 5 years ago. TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan. Let me see what I can find out.


"The sun - the bright sun, that brings back, not light alone, but new life, and hope, and freshness to man - burst upon the crowded city in clear and radiant glory."


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Making Hydra available with full reversionary ability (i.e., no less of recordings) will get TiVo an 80-90+% trial percentage.


While I agree with the entire post, I wanted to specifically respond to this part. I know it has been said that this can't happen, but what can't happen is me believing a way can't be found. I would imagine getting people to at least TRY TE4 would be desirable, and I would also imagine once they tried (especially the more recent version) a certain number would stay (and as noted in the post, fix a couple more issues and even more will stay). People aren't standing in Costco giving out free samples because Costco loves you (the greeter might, though), they're giving out the samples because they know once you try, you're likely to buy.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

stile99 said:


> People aren't standing in Costco giving out free samples because Costco loves you (the greeter might, though), they're giving out the samples because they know once you try, you're likely to buy.


What benefit does TiVo gain from people trying and liking TE4? If you're trying it at all, it means you've already purchased the h/w and probably going to use it for at least a year. Anyone who buys a new TiVo box won't have as much probably reverting (as they would have less recorded to lose from reverting.)

My concern (on TiVo's behalf) is the "first impression" that TE4 gives a (potential) new TiVo customer. These aren't people who will "try it" - they are people who won't know that any other option exists. The new customer won't know they are being "upgraded" to TE4, as it's completely automatic for a new setup. Then they are subjected to the numerous bugs in TE4 without knowing that the issues will eventually get worked out, that they are bugs, etc. From their point of view, it might very well look like TiVo just sucks and so they return the box.

Come to think of it, even a long time TiVo customer first being exposed to TE4 might get the same impressions. There are several aspects of TE4 that, at least to me, appear to be bugs. However, being that TiVo hasn't responded to my reports on this forum, or via their "contact us" link, I don't know if they'll get fixed or if TiVo even considers them bugs. For all I know, TiVo purposely is moving away from "thumbs" and suggestions, etc.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> TTG and TTCB were not actively removed, but they definitely became unsupported at some point. I don't know the full chronology, but I can guarantee it was not done as part of some master plan. Let me see what I can find out.


Sad to hear this as definitely one of the features that set TiVo apart and which we use.

Scott


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GaryD9 said:


> My concern (on TiVo's behalf) is the "first impression" that TE4 gives a (potential) new TiVo customer.


I suspect that's what they're banking on.

Look, I prefer the old interface to Hydra (having "upgraded" early on). I don't mind Hydra, but prefer the old one. But I'm kind of an old-school guy. The first thing I still do when I get a new computer is buy and install Start10, which makes it look like Windows 8, because I just can't stand the "modern" interface of Win8 & Win10. But I realize there's an entire generation of people for whom the only computer they've known is a tablet, and that's how they think their devices should operate...like a tablet or a phone.

And the old TiVo interface isn't like Windows 7 compared to Windows 10...it's like DOS. I can imagine new TiVo users coming in, seeing the old, text-based interface, and hating it. Passionately. Because they've never seen anything like it, and want something that's more like their tablets and phones.

I prefer the old interface. But I'm the past, and I can see where it might make good business sense for TiVo to look to the future instead of trying to make old fogies like me happy.

(Then again, most attempts by the comic book industry to come into the 21st century instead of pandering to the aging fan base have failed utterly, only serving to alienate those few oldsters who are barely keeping them afloat. But if DVRs are more like comic books than computers, I guess they're probably doomed anyway...)


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TE4 is almost certainly solely designed for TiVo’s MSO partners. I doubt it’s a coincidence that TE4 looks very similar to Comcast’s X1 platform. That all Tivo customers can get it is just a benefit.


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

GaryD9 said:


> What benefit does TiVo gain from people trying and liking TE4?


No idea, but Ted has said they would like people to try it. Maybe ask him.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect that's what they're banking on.
> 
> ... and I can see where it might make good business sense for TiVo to look to the future instead of trying to make old fogies like me happy.


I can agree with that in a general sense, but the problem is that the "new" interface is buggy. So, instead of new users getting the impression of a nice modern interface, they might get the impression of "ugh, this tivo stuff is buggy. I'll return it now while I'm still in my return window" instead of waiting for bug fixes (and they'll never know they could "downgrade" to a previous and more functional interface.)

In fact, returning it would be the intelligent thing to do, as the window for returning something doesn't get extended just for buggy software, and there's no assurance whatsoever from TiVo that the issues will be fixed, or even any official acknowledgement of the issues! If that new customer tries to contact TiVo via phone to report/ask about problems, they'll likely have a bad experience. If they try to contact tivo via their "contact us" form on their webpage, the issue goes into a black hole.

Perhaps @TiVo_Ted can offer some insight to this, but my previous attempts to get his attention in regards to issues have seemingly gone into the same black hole as the tivo webpage "contact us" link.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not sure how buggy it is, though. I know people have been complaining, but there's no way to know how representative those complaints are...and I know I haven't experienced any problems.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure how buggy it is, though. I know people have been complaining, but there's no way to know how representative those complaints are...and I know I haven't experienced any problems.


Really? Please try this:

From live TV, tap the TiVo button, and navigate down and right to your list of suggestions (or TV Series, etc.) The idea is so that a textual list of shows is being shown in a vertical list. (Not a horizontal "list" of pictures representing the shows.) From this list, you'll likely be seeing groups of specific shows. From this list, highlight a given show and press either thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here.) Then press select. You should now be seeing a list of episodes of the previously selected show. Press a thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here either.) Now press select on any one episode. You should now be seeing the detail for that specific episode (including the description of the episode.) Press a thumb button. Thumb buttons STILL don't work here either!

This "thumb" issue extends to the suggestions list where it's really annoying. While viewing the list of suggestions, it's impossible to tell TiVo that you don't like one of it's suggestions using the thumb down button unless you first actually start playing the undesirable show! In a 24 hour period, my new TiVo BOLT+VOX recorded over 150 suggestions, and MOST were undesirable. (This is normal with a new TiVo until the thumbs are set up.) With TE3, I could just scroll through the list of suggestions pressing thumbs down on the undesirable stuff. With TE4, due to the bug I'm referring to (and I hope to God it is a bug and not by design), I have to actually start playing each one of the suggestions in order to give it a thumb down.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I stopped using Suggestions somewhere around 2001, so I haven't experienced any of that.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> Making Hydra available with full reversionary ability (i.e., no less of recordings) will get TiVo an 80-90+% trial percentage.
> 
> Making Hydra available with full TTG ability, between TiVo boxes (no online intervention needed) and TiVo box <-> PC (i.e., both directions) nets TiVo another 25% adoption rate.


These two keep me from trying Hydra. #1 will never happen, ergo I won't try Hydra. Just not worth the hassle for minimal potential gain at this time, and a lot of downside. #2 alone would keep me from trying it even if I wanted to hassle with restoring recordings (and I have a decent amount of CP'd stuff that can't be restored), because I transfer PC-based stuff to Tivo on a regular basis.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

GaryD9 said:


> Really? Please try this:
> 
> From live TV, tap the TiVo button, and navigate down and right to your list of suggestions (or TV Series, etc.) The idea is so that a textual list of shows is being shown in a vertical list. (Not a horizontal "list" of pictures representing the shows.) From this list, you'll likely be seeing groups of specific shows. From this list, highlight a given show and press either thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here.) Then press select. You should now be seeing a list of episodes of the previously selected show. Press a thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here either.) Now press select on any one episode. You should now be seeing the detail for that specific episode (including the description of the episode.) Press a thumb button. Thumb buttons STILL don't work here either!
> 
> This "thumb" issue extends to the suggestions list where it's really annoying. While viewing the list of suggestions, it's impossible to tell TiVo that you don't like one of it's suggestions using the thumb down button unless you first actually start playing the undesirable show! In a 24 hour period, my new TiVo BOLT+VOX recorded over 150 suggestions, and MOST were undesirable. (This is normal with a new TiVo until the thumbs are set up.) With TE3, I could just scroll through the list of suggestions pressing thumbs down on the undesirable stuff. With TE4, due to the bug I'm referring to (and I hope to God it is a bug and not by design), I have to actually start playing each one of the suggestions in order to give it a thumb down.


A person like me, who doesn't look at suggestions, will never run into that issue.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> These two keep me from trying Hydra. #1 will never happen, ergo I won't try Hydra. Just not worth the hassle for minimal potential gain at this time, and a lot of downside. #2 alone would keep me from trying it even if I wanted to hassle with restoring recordings (and I have a decent amount of CP'd stuff that can't be restored), because I transfer PC-based stuff to Tivo on a regular basis.


I transfer 75% of my recordings to a PC. When I upgraded to Hydra, I started using Plex to get around the issue of not being able to transfer content back to the TiVo. And in the end I realized I wish I had switched to this method a long time ago. Since it's automated and I can easily access any plex content from dozens of other devices I own, from wherever I am.

In the end, switching to Hydra made things much easier for me with my show transfers.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I stopped using Suggestions somewhere around 2001, so I haven't experienced any of that.





aaronwt said:


> A person like me, who doesn't look at suggestions, will never run into that issue.


That's great that a couple of people don't use suggestions. It's also not relevant to the sub-discussion I was replying to: a message referencing the experience for new users.

Those "new" users will find that TiVo suggestions are one of the things that differentiates TiVo from their cable DVR. Some will turn it off, but many will leave it on. Most will at least tinker with it. It's one of the things that TiVo highlights on their homepage ("Over time, TiVo learns the types of programs you like to watch, your favorite actors and directors. When you're in the mood to find something new, TiVo helps you cut through the clutter to find the stuff you'll like")

It's also fairly useless when you can't "teach" TiVo what you like via the thumb up/down buttons - and that highlights bugs in the new experience for the new user.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the old TiVo interface isn't like Windows 7 compared to Windows 10...it's like DOS.


Which old TiVo interface are you referring to? My Series 2's UI is like DOS--my Roamio's Gen 3 UI definitely is more Win7 with graphics getting it into Win10 Start menu land.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mikeguy said:


> Which old TiVo interface are you referring to? My Series 2's UI is like DOS--my Roamio's Gen 3 UI definitely is more Win7 with graphics getting it into Win10 Start menu land.


The one before Hydra. It may have had a little bit of surface glitz (a VERY little bit!), but for all intents and purposes it was the same old text-based interface.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The one before Hydra. It may have had a little bit of surface glitz (a VERY little bit!), but for all intents and purposes it was the same old text-based interface.


If you consider the Gen3 UI as DOS, does that make Series 2 BASIC?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mikeguy said:


> If you consider the Gen3 UI as DOS, does that make Series 2 BASIC?


Binary, baby!


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> If you consider the Gen3 UI as DOS, does that make Series 2 BASIC?


Wouldn't that be better as: DOS vs CP/M (both OS's) ?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I completely trust Ted when he says reverting is complicated and risks borking the box. The easiest way "back" is probably to release an Encore emulator of some kind which already exists internally (Maybe being tested? Who knows.)

PC-to-tivo transfer support is the most disqualifying aspect of Hydra for me. I'm semi-stuck in place since pre-existing transfers won't play either. I'm hoping Ted will at least consider repairing what broke TTCB/push in 2016 before development is capped off, so that we Encore folks can do our thing until we're ready/able to upgrade. (Hugs and kisses if you do, Ted. I'll even throw in a free Tivo plushy. )


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I transfer 75% of my recordings to a PC. When I upgraded to Hydra, I started using Plex to get around the issue of not being able to transfer content back to the TiVo. And in the end I realized I wish I had switched to this method a long time ago. Since it's automated and I can easily access any plex content from dozens of other devices I own, from wherever I am.


I greatly prefer Tivo's native playback controls to Plex. Obviously, YMMV.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> I greatly prefer Tivo's native playback controls to Plex. Obviously, YMMV.


Oh of course. The TiVo controls are much better. Plex is not my primary way of watching my shows. But With Plex I now can just stream it anywhere from a bunch of devices. I mainly used transfers from PCs as a backup or I transferred content to a TiVo to take to my GFs house. But now I just stream it remotely with Plex when i'm at her house.

And now I'm using Plex with all my UHD BD rips.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I completely trust Ted when he says reverting is complicated and risks borking the box.


Ah, I don't recall that--or conveniently blacked it out of my mind. 

But then again, if the good folks at Microsoft can do it with Windows, I would think that the_ equally talented_ folks at TiVo could do it.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> ... if the good folks at Microsoft can do it with Windows...


 I thought you wanted it WITHOUT borking the box...


----------



## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

GaryD9 said:


> It's also fairly useless when you can't "teach" TiVo what you like via the thumb up/down buttons - and that highlights bugs in the new experience for the new user.


More like missing functionality than bugs. If these were bugs it would mean everyone at TiVO thought this functionality was there and working. No doubt this functionality will come in a quarterly software update since the new VOX remotes still have thumb up/down buttons.

People are failing to understand that Hydra was a complete software rewrite not just an upgrade. So Hydra was never going to have all of the functionality of GEN3 at initial release. Nor was it going to be as bug free as GEN3. And GEN3 was hated for a long time until it's functionality and bugginess was improved. People tend to have short or distorted memories.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> More like missing functionality than bugs. If these were bugs it would mean everyone at TiVO thought this functionality was there and working. No doubt this functionality will come in a quarterly software update since the new VOX remotes still have thumb up/down buttons.


So, you're suggesting that crippling the thumb up/down functionality is "by design?"

If so, I disagree based on this document published by TiVo: https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/How-to-Use-TiVo-Suggestions

That document, which has been updated for TE4, includes the following:

"*If you have a BOLT Series, Roamio Series or Premiere Series DVR using HD menus*, you can adjust the thumb ratings of your shows by finding the individual show in My Shows, Search, To Do List, Guide, One Pass Manager, or anywhere else the show listing appears."

That indicates that I should be able to adjust thumb ratings in the various lists, details, etc. Yet, I can't. As far as I'm aware, no one who is using the current release of TE4 (21.8.1.RC6) can in several places (as described in post 113 in this thread and in this other thread here.)

I just hope that people realize I'm not trying to "rant" about hydra this or hydra that. I'm simply trying to get TiVo to AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE a bug. After all, that's the first step in getting the stupid thing fixed. So far, all I've gotten from tivo on this is instructions on how to reboot the tivo box and advice to clear unused wishlists. At least this time they aren't (yet) suggesting I take down my entire LAN by rebooting my access points, switches and routers.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

GaryD9 said:


> I'm simply trying to get TiVo to AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE a bug.


The release of 21.8.1.RC6 broke suggestions. Maybe it would be better to say that everything gets suggested, so the function has lost its usefulness. You seem to think that TiVo's support has a clue what you are talking about. Keep your expectations low.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> The release of 21.8.1.RC6 broke suggestions. Maybe it would be better to say that everything gets suggested, so the function has lost its usefulness.


NO, NO, NO, NO!!! Do you work for TiVo as a support tech? :fearscream:

Responses like this make me think that I'm not getting my point across clearly. Irregardless of suggestions working or not, my point/issue is that the "thumb" buttons on the remote don't add/remove thumbs to/from a given show in certain areas of the UI where they should. It's as if the code for handling the "thumb" button presses is just completely missing.

This (thumb) issue and the fact that suggestions are all over the place are two separate and distinct issues.



JoeKustra said:


> You seem to think that TiVo's support has a clue what you are talking about. Keep your expectations low.


Yeah, well, after paying $499 for a box and $14/month for service ... and still being in the first 2 weeks of this box... I kind of expected something more than "1. Reboot Tivo; 2. Reboot your routers, switches and AP's; 3. Goto Step 1"

Although, to be quite honest, your response has me wondering if perhaps my problem is that I'm not clearly communicating. I just don't know how else to communicate that the "thumb buttons on the remote don't work where they should" other than to say... "the thumb buttons on the remote don't work where/when they should" and give detailed steps to repeat.


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

GaryD9 said:


> From live TV, tap the TiVo button, and navigate down and right to your list of suggestions (or TV Series, etc.) The idea is so that a textual list of shows is being shown in a vertical list. (Not a horizontal "list" of pictures representing the shows.) From this list, you'll likely be seeing groups of specific shows. From this list, highlight a given show and press either thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here.) Then press select. You should now be seeing a list of episodes of the previously selected show. Press a thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here either.) Now press select on any one episode. You should now be seeing the detail for that specific episode (including the description of the episode.) Press a thumb button. Thumb buttons STILL don't work here either!


I can tell you that the first option mentioned (selecting a folder of shows) also doesn't work with the prior gen 3 HD interface. You get the nice error tone trying it here. But when you open the folder and highlight an episode from the episode list, it does work with gen3 and gives the correct sounds (and visual thumbs) with up or down. And of course it works the same from the episode specific view as well.

Scott


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

GaryD9 said:


> NO, NO, NO, NO!!! Do you work for TiVo as a support tech? :fearscream:.


They couldn't pay me enough.

I have no thumbs up or down on any program. I started seeing all tuners recording with the last release. That's not related? I have only a single 1P.

One thing you can't dispute. There are other threads where this topic belongs.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> I have no thumbs up or down on any program. I started seeing all tuners recording with the last release. That's not related? I have only a single 1P.


I don't think so. Oh, they are loosely related in that thumbs up/down should impact what gets recorded as a suggestion and what doesn't, and tivo's published documents even hint that suggestions won't record until you give something thumbs... but I don't think the two issues are related to each other.

The issue I'm trying to report is that the UI isn't allowing data to be set (in certain areas.) This is likely more clear-cut to handle (though it might be more time consuming for development) as it seems as if a chunk of code is just.. missing from certain areas. However, it's actually very simple and obvious to repeat the problem with a 100% rate of repeat if someone just takes 10 seconds to try.

On the other hand, the "suggestions" issue appears to be that TE4 is using something other than thumb data to influence or determine what suggestions to record. This might be a logic issue, it might be a change in the algorithm, or something else entirely. Repeating this one might be easy, but it would be subjective on if something should or shouldn't record as a suggestion. As well, from start to finish, this one could take hours to repeat.

In either case, fixing one of these issues wouldn't fix the other.



JoeKustra said:


> One thing you can't dispute. There are other threads where this topic belongs.


This I can agree with. I'm not even sure how I got started talking about this bug in this particular thread.

Perhaps it was just my extreme frustration that the issue is seemingly being completely ignored by TiVo, and so trying to bring it up in any thread where I see a TiVo employee active.


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

I'm looking into this now, but I can confirm that something is not quite right with thumbs up/down in the latest update. It could be a UI issue as Gary suggests, or it could be some underlying issue between the recommendation engine and the scheduling engine as Joe suggests. Or, it could be both. Maybe we should resurrect an old suggestions thread to continue this conversation?


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm looking into this now, but I can confirm that something is not quite right with thumbs up/down in the latest update. It could be a UI issue as Gary suggests, or it could be some underlying issue between the recommendation engine and the scheduling engine as Joe suggests. Or, it could be both. Maybe we should resurrect an old suggestions thread to continue this conversation?


Done
Seems right -> May 1 update records more junk suggestions

Better, but it's just a suggestion.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm looking into this now, but I can confirm that something is not quite right with thumbs up/down in the latest update. It could be a UI issue as Gary suggests, or it could be some underlying issue between the recommendation engine and the scheduling engine as Joe suggests. Or, it could be both. Maybe we should resurrect an old suggestions thread to continue this conversation?


For the specific issue of the "thumb" buttons not working, here's a thread describing the problem (and ranting about the useless replies from tivo's support in regards to it): Where to report TiVo software bugs?

Oh, and thank you for responding.


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

My theory on what broke suggestions and how to fix them easily -> May 1 update records more junk suggestions


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> TTG and TTCB


???

Calling @JoeKustra? (also KMTTG )


----------



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> ???
> Calling @JoeKustra? (also KMTTG )


I'll go with typo.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> I'll go with typo.


Google is my friend (link):

_There was also an addition (although it's not enabled at the beginning) to TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX where you can send video files (MPEG-2 or .TiVo files) back to the TiVo from the Mac (also known as *TiVoToComeBack *or *TTCB*)_​
Seems like TTCB (TiVotoComeBack) may have been the nickname for the push feature.

Just thought you might want to add them all to your abbreviations post.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

TiVo To Come Back.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Just thought you might want to add them all to your abbreviations post.


Thanks for the abbrevs update, Joe.

FYI, though, re: typo for *TTCB*...


JoeKustra said:


> TTG = TiVoToGo
> TT*TG* = TiVoToComeBack


----------



## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

GaryD9 said:


> Really? Please try this:
> 
> From live TV, tap the TiVo button, and navigate down and right to your list of suggestions (or TV Series, etc.) The idea is so that a textual list of shows is being shown in a vertical list. (Not a horizontal "list" of pictures representing the shows.) From this list, you'll likely be seeing groups of specific shows. From this list, highlight a given show and press either thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here.) Then press select. You should now be seeing a list of episodes of the previously selected show. Press a thumb button. Nothing happens. (Thumb buttons don't work here either.) Now press select on any one episode. You should now be seeing the detail for that specific episode (including the description of the episode.) Press a thumb button. Thumb buttons STILL don't work here either!
> 
> This "thumb" issue extends to the suggestions list where it's really annoying. While viewing the list of suggestions, it's impossible to tell TiVo that you don't like one of it's suggestions using the thumb down button unless you first actually start playing the undesirable show! In a 24 hour period, my new TiVo BOLT+VOX recorded over 150 suggestions, and MOST were undesirable. (This is normal with a new TiVo until the thumbs are set up.) With TE3, I could just scroll through the list of suggestions pressing thumbs down on the undesirable stuff. With TE4, due to the bug I'm referring to (and I hope to God it is a bug and not by design), I have to actually start playing each one of the suggestions in order to give it a thumb down.


At the start you say from Life TV press the TiVo button. Are you going to TiVo Central or do you mean press the TiVo button twice to go to My Shows?

I'm a new TiVo user and I have no database of programs and my first impression was Hydra stunk. I had viewed YouTube screens about TiVo and liked theold interface. I have nothing to lose to try to revert back to the old UI. The reason I haven't done it is because they have programmed the Vox microphone to reach an entire database of old movies and TV shows where the typing search doesn't reach them. You can make one passes or bookmarks for those shows and movies, so I've decided to stick with Hydra.


----------



## GaryD9 (Mar 1, 2002)

Furmaniac said:


> At the start you say from Life TV press the TiVo button. Are you going to TiVo Central or do you mean press the TiVo button twice to go to My Shows?


I purposely didn't use the terms "TiVo Central" or "My Shows" as the former doesn't seem to exist anymore in Hydra (it's just an untitled menu) and the latter is something I still call "Now Showing" for some reason. (Of course, "season passes" are still a thing for me as well.) Anyway, if you follow the steps, you end up in "my shows"... and eventually in the list of suggestions (though the issue occurs in any vertical list of shows as well as the detail page for any given show.)

One clue that the "thumbs" button won't work is that no thumbs are displayed (if a show happens to have any.)

As for sticking with Hydra... I'm still trying. Once again, I'm putting my faith in TiVo that the bugs will be fixed. I'm not super-thrilled with the overall UI change, but I'm trying to get used to it instead of just reverting. The time I did revert, I simply had no choice as I needed to transfer recordings.

Anyway, as was pointed out to me earlier in this thread, talking about this bug (or, apparently, hydra in general) is a bit off topic. So, just to satisfy the Topic Police, I'll mention that the new user agreement changes are now in effect.


----------

