# TiVo announces two new boxes. Premiere Q (4 tuner box) and the Premiere Preview



## Rebate_King

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2011/06/11/5567557.htm

(Multichannel News Via Acquire Media NewsEdge) TiVo working overtime to win business from cable operators will offer MSOs two new set-top options and has enhanced its iPad app to integrate with cable video services.

TiVo Premiere Q is the company's first quad-tuner gateway set-top box, a higher-end option than its flagship Premiere dual-tuner digital video recorder. In addition, TiVo is rolling out Preview, its first non-DVR HD set-top box.

RCN will be the first U.S. cable operator to offer subscribers the Premiere Q and Preview, in addition to its current TiVo Premiere offering, later this year. Sud-denlink Communications also expects to offer the new boxes at some point.

"TiVo's solution for cable has stood apart in delivering the only offering that fully integrates the operator's linear and VOD content with broadband content and application choices," David Sandford, vice president and general manager of TiVo's service provider business, said in a statement.

Premiere Q and Preview will provide more flexibility to offer multiroom DVR services to customers, according to TiVo.

In addition being able to handle up to four simultaneous recordings, Premiere Q supports up to three HD streams over a Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) or Ethernet home network. The Preview box also includes integrated MoCA and Ethernet for home networking.

Meanwhile, the newversion of TiVo's companion iPad application automatically adds an operator'svideo-on-demand titles into the search and browse features within the app. It also detects and integrates an operator's branding, linear programming lineup and VOD catalog when connected to a TiVo box provided by the operator.

Users can "flick" the content they find on the TiVo iPad app and it begins playing on TV.


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## plazman30

Did I read the article wrong, or are these boxes for cable providers only?


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## RangerOne

plazman30 said:


> Did I read the article wrong, or are these boxes for cable providers only?


You read it correct. Not surprising since they already offer a three tuner box with Virgin in the UK.

Some time back, folks noticed testing with a unknown TiVo box (I think the guy who hosts HME Reversi noted it). The original speculation was that it was testing for the Insignia-branded TV (Best Buy) with TiVo interface (announced a while ago). Apparently there are now two non-DVR TiVos now in development.

Looks like retail is REALLY taking a back seat to MSO development.


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## Rob Helmerichs

If Comcast offered a Q, I'd be all over that.


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## innocentfreak

The box was originally designed for cable companies RCN and Sudden Link. From the previous announcement they said they might still offer it via retail but possibly without moca.

From the original announcement, http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=194168&site=lr_cable



> TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO) has confirmed it's developing a new client box for a whole-home DVR for MSOs, with Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) being one of the high-speed home networking technologies it's considering.
> 
> TiVo senior VP of corporate development and strategy Naveen Chopra tells Light Reading Cable that his company will be developing both the software and the hardware for a whole-home product that would feed off an MSO-customized version of TiVo's Premiere box. TiVo has similar projects overseas, but most of them call for TiVo's software to be ported to third-party boxes. (See TiVo Hopes to Reign in Spain and TiVo Coming to Virgin's Non-DVRs, Too.)
> 
> "We're developing a client box" for MSOs, Chopra says, but he isn't elaborating on specifics, such as how many TVs and other devices would be supported by the new multi-room product.
> 
> However, TiVo wants to ensure that the experience on the client boxes mirrors what customers can do on the Premiere DVR. "That's a key design principle for us," Chopra says.
> 
> TiVo is considering a "couple of choices" when it comes to the home networking technology for the multi-room DVR. "We think MoCA will be a very popular answer for many operators," Chopra says, noting that it would be "easy" to modify the Premiere box for MoCA. That would obviously represent growth potential for Entropic Communications Inc. (Nasdaq: ENTR) and Broadcom Corp. (Nasdaq: BRCM), still the only companies that make MoCA chips. (See MoCA Is Go for 2.0.)
> 
> TiVo hasn't announced plans to make a similar whole-home client to support its retail DVR products, though Chopra acknowledges it would be a "logical" thing to do. Such a product would likely involve wireless home networking.


Also one sentence in the OP's link jumped out at me.



> In addition being able to handle up to four simultaneous recordings, Premiere Q supports up to three HD streams over a Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) or Ethernet home network. The Preview box also includes integrated MoCA and Ethernet for home networking.


It looks like the Tivo will support streaming with a max of three streams on the Q. This leads me to believe we will see support for one stream on the Premiere assuming they leave one tuner for local viewing.


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## aaronwt

With the last update the Premiere can handle more than with the previous software. 2 MRV streams( 1 incoming and 1 outgoing), 2 recordings, one VOD download and viewing one previously recorded show.

Although when I tested this, the Amazon download did slow to a crawl of only 3 or 4 mb/s instead of the normal 30 to 35 mb/s download speed from Amazon.
But still you could do six things which was not possible before.
Before it was only four. Only one MRV stream and the VOD download had to wait until the MRV transfer was finished.


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## innocentfreak

I am guessing this means streaming may take priority or use less resources since technically this would be three outgoing. Of course the premiere q may have a newer beefier chip. Unless of course the q blocks other services or queues them at least while the streaming is occurring.


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## nrc

RangerOne said:


> Looks like retail is REALLY taking a back seat to MSO development.


I would guess that they'll have a retail version out soon. They'll need someone to beta test it.


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## RangerOne

nrc said:


> I would guess that they'll have a retail version out soon. They'll need someone to beta test it.


I wonder if the current Premier would be replaced and would we see a version of the Preview at retail? There is only so much space the TiVo will get at retail today.


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## davezatz

RangerOne said:


> I wonder if the current Premier would be replaced and would we see a version of the Preview at retail? There is only so much space the TiVo will get at retail today.


IF they take the Q into retail it'd be online only and perhaps through Magnolia is my guess... For the Preview, I'm not sure - there could be more options IF they can _simply and effectively_ explain it as a non-DVR cable box that also handles Premiere streaming.


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## Aero 1

If it's OTA, it's not interesting to me...or the retail chain


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## innocentfreak

I wonder if they will stick with the 1tb drive from the xl or if they will be smart and go with the 2tb drive. 

Depending on how well the xl sells or doesn't sell, I could even see them dumping the xl and only offering the regular premiere and the q.


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## TheWGP

Interesting...

While it's tempting to think that this explains where Tivo's engineers, time and focus have been, I'm afraid that's wishful thinking.

I fully expect the Q to be just a Premiere XL with 4 tuners instead of 2. Recall that the box is perfectly capable and has everything it needs to handle more than 2 tuners - Tivo just didn't insert them.

It's kind of sounding like the Preview is interesting but the big x-factor is the Tivo fee. If they're still charging 19.99/14.99 a month for it, I can see it flopping in a BIG way. This is especially the case because you're still going to need a Cablecard in each one, so that added expense and hassle may make the Preview more equivalent to the Premiere in the minds of many customers. I think the only way they address this is by making the Preview significantly cheaper. If it's $75 up front + $15/10 a month, well heck, you might as well just get a Premiere for 25 bucks up front and an extra 5 bucks a month! To really differentiate it, the pricing differential will have to be non-trivial.

Of course, all of this assumes Tivo has any plans at all to sell these to us - it's quite possible that this is the first stage of Tivo's overt MSOs-Only strategy, which has mostly been hinted at till now. Then again, Tivo may see an opportunity to set pricing out of this world for online-only Q purchases - after all, the only people who would buy one (other than RCN subs) would be diehard fanatics, the folks who paid $1000+ for Series 3's the first day, and so on. Plus, as nrc mentioned, Tivo needs someone to beta test... wait a second, why are we PAYING Tivo to beta test? One more advantage of lifetime!


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## aridon

Well my first cable card is free. With 4 tuners I'd wager many people would go the whole home DVR route like Directv is offering. Thats $10 +7 right off the bat and another $6 which can be credited and a two year contract. Tivo's price isn't that far off with the subsidized hardware and drops after the first year. What this could do is get people to get rid of some extra boxes. Sure some people need 8+ tuners but I'd wager most do not. 

Also this PROBABLY means Tivo isn't abandoning premiere software. Which means those of us that don't give a crap about the extra two tuners can skip out on the upgrade yet see hopefully tangible improvement to the UI.

We shall see. This is a critical time for Tivo. If they lag too far behind now they will get bought out or go into bankruptcy / get bought out. They have about 3-5 years to make it happen and not become any more irrelevant than they already have. The direct deals with DirecTV and Cable Co's are their only hope as retail is dying for them.

The Directv tivo will be out this year. Probably next for the start of the cable Co roll outs. Adding VOD to the Premiere will also help. So there are a few big things coming. Hopefully they get the UI speed up and finish the HD UI for the other menus as well.


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## innocentfreak

TheWGP said:


> Interesting...
> 
> While it's tempting to think that this explains where Tivo's engineers, time and focus have been, I'm afraid that's wishful thinking.
> 
> I fully expect the Q to be just a Premiere XL with 4 tuners instead of 2. Recall that the box is perfectly capable and has everything it needs to handle more than 2 tuners - Tivo just didn't insert them.


Dont forget they have also been working on streaming, the virgin TiVo, the RCN software, the comcast software, hulu, and the 4 tuner would still require testing though some would have been done software wise for the virgin TiVo. Of course the virgin TiVo is different hardware.

I can see TiVo sticking with the 1tb drive, but hopefully they won't or at least will offer a 2tb drive option like a Q XL. My Premiere XLs constantly have full drives, and I cant imagine if they had two more tuner in them.


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## TheWGP

innocentfreak said:


> Dont forget they have also been working on...


Oh, I know, and I agree - my point was just that I doubt Tivo is going to do much of anything software-wise other than the minimum required to get all 4 tuners working. Bare-bones functionality and then stop development seems to be the rule at Tivo - this is probably due to having few engineers and spreading them thin over so many projects, including those you mention.

It is tempting to think "well maybe they'll do something to fix the Premiere now" since they're releasing this. If anything, the complete OPPOSITE is true historically. That said, if they're still calling it a Premiere, I'm hopeful that at least some of the software will be the same. Perhaps charging a potentially super-premium price for the Q would give them an incentive to fix stuff for the Q, which might trickle down to the current Premiere/Premier XL. I think that's the best we can hope for.



aridon said:


> The Directv tivo will be out this year.


LOLOLOLOL - I think any prognostication on a DirecTivo release date is wishful thinking, for a variety of reasons. DirecTivo isn't in Duke Nukem Forever vaporware territory, but it's getting there.


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## sac84371

TheWGP said:


> this is probably due to having few engineers and spreading them thin over so many projects, including those you mention.


Good insight here. Must be hard to hire top engineering talent when you have companies like Apple, HP, Intel etc thriving and clamoring for talent. How does Tivo retain and / or lure new talent to support existing and future projects?


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## JimboG

Let me see if I have this straight:

The Series 3 TiVo has two tuners and good over the air reception in 2006.
The TiVo Premiere has two tuners and mediocre over the air reception in 2010.
The Tivo Premiere Q has four tuners but *no over the air reception* in 2011.

How friggin' tough is it to include an ATSC tuner with decent performance in a device that already has a QAM tuner, power supply, hard drive, case, etc.? It doesn't seem like the marginal cost nor the engineering expertise should be all that demanding.

WTF?!


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## innocentfreak

JimboG said:


> Let me see if I have this straight:
> 
> The Series 3 TiVo has two tuners and good over the air reception in 2006.
> The TiVo Premiere has two tuners and mediocre over the air reception in 2010.
> The Tivo Premiere Q has four tuners but *no over the air reception* in 2011.
> 
> How friggin' tough is it to include an ATSC tuner with decent performance in a device that already has a QAM tuner, power supply, hard drive, case, etc.? It doesn't seem like the marginal cost nor the engineering expertise should be all that demanding.
> 
> WTF?!


We don't know. I am guessing.

TiVo uses a 2 chip design. Previously the chips they could choose from were
1 OTA/1 qam tuner
2 qam tuners
2 OTA tuners

As a result they could do any combo but to get 4 tuners and stick to the two chip design they would have to go with 2 of the 2 qam tuner chips. Now like I said there could be new tuner chips out and bkdtv would probably know but he seems to be MIA.

If someone now makes a single chip with 2 qam tuners and 2 OTA tuners they could offer a box with 4 tuners for either qam or OTA.


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## gothaggis

hopefully the iPad VOD updates are for comast.....from the press release, it seems like it may only be for those cable providers that offer tivos??


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## innocentfreak

gothaggis said:


> hopefully the iPad VOD updates are for comast.....from the press release, it seems like it may only be for those cable providers that offer tivos??


I would say it is probably for RCN for now. Currently RCN is redesigning their vod interface and also they don't support the iPad app yet.


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## kturcotte

Hopefully it has 4 cable tuners AND 4 OTA tuners, if it ever comes to retail. I HIGHLY doubt Time Warner is EVER going to let Tivo develop their DVRs.


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## ShoutingMan

A four-tuner box with extenders could potentially drop the cost for multi-room by hundreds. Currently, a four-tuner solution is 2 Premiere's (2x$99) and two Lifetime's (2x$499) or $1200 (maybe $1000 if there are $399 lifetimes). And you have to manually manage the two separate boxes. This new system might be $199 for the box, $99 for an extender, and $499 for lifetime, a $700 total, a $400 savings.

Would Tivo give up that much revenue? Perhaps the right interpretation is that, if they sell standalone systems, the new box will by at least $299 and extenders will be at least $199.

I want to upgrade from my two TivoHDs this Fall. I want a four-tuner system, and am investigating HTPCs. Tivo creating a quad-tuner box with extenders could completely change my equation and keep me in the "family".


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## tomhorsley

The Premier Preview sounds like a complete waste of hardware. Judging from the original Premier, Tivo is utterly incompetent at branching out into things other than being a DVR. A box that can only run the absolute worst bits of Tivo software sounds like a real dog of a product. Of course, even at that, it might still be better than the cable boxes currently available.


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## shaown

JimboG said:


> Let me see if I have this straight:
> The Tivo Premiere Q has four tuners but *no over the air reception* in 2011.
> WTF?!


Why you would include OTA tuners in a MSO / Cable only box? I would expect a retail variant has the OTAs - but not the MSO version. Its pretty rare exception nowadays to need OTA reception if you have local Cable (i.e. most cable COs carry the HD versions of the network locals.)

-Shaown


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## shwru980r

JimboG said:


> How friggin' tough is it to include an ATSC tuner with decent performance in a device that already has a QAM tuner, power supply, hard drive, case, etc.? It doesn't seem like the marginal cost nor the engineering expertise should be all that demanding.
> 
> WTF?!


Does such a device even exist? The few 4+ tuner devices I've seen for HTPCs are cable only also.


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## Ennui

How many tuners would an "M" card feed? There is only space for one card on the Premier?

Also, the TiVo OTA performance is not as good as on my TV.


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## innocentfreak

Ennui said:


> How many tuners would an "M" card feed? There is only space for one card on the Premier?


The M cards support up to 6 streams, but Tuning Adapters which are required by some markets are only going to soon be required to support 4 streams.


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## nrc

JimboG said:


> How friggin' tough is it to include an ATSC tuner with decent performance in a device that already has a QAM tuner, power supply, hard drive, case, etc.? It doesn't seem like the marginal cost nor the engineering expertise should be all that demanding.
> 
> WTF?!


It's a cable company product. How many cable boxes have ATSC tuners?


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## Dan203

JimboG said:


> The Tivo Premiere Q has four tuners but *no over the air reception* in 2011.


So really this is just a regular Premiere with the 2 OTA tuners replaced by 2 additional QAM tuners. I wonder what took them so long? Perhaps they've had this ready since the release of the Premiere and were just waiting on the mandate that forces Cable Companies to support at least 4 tuners on a single M-Card.



TheWGP said:


> DirecTivo isn't in Duke Nukem Forever vaporware territory, but it's getting there.


It only took 14 years, but DNF will be available this Tuesday...

http://www.amazon.com/Duke-Nukem-Forever-Pc/dp/B002I0JAJ2

It's only been like 2-3 years since the new DirecTiVo was announced, so they've got plenty of time to catch up. 

Dan


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## bschuler2007

I'm actually impressed with Tivo. I knew they dumped us retail guys for MSO development awhile back, but I really wasn't expecting alot. It's nice to see Tivo can make new products and better software.. even if I'll never see it.


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## Philmatic

In all fairness, TiVo cannot expect anyone to pay a cent in subscription fees for the Preview boxes... The Premier Q is fine at $20/month, but I wouldn't pay a single cent for the Preview other than an upfront hardware cost.


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## Resist

To me, it seems like Tivo has forgotten the stand alone Tivo customer. Granted this new 4 tuner cable box is great news for cable box users, but I partly purchased a Tivo so I wouldn't have to spend more to rent a cable box. Why can't stand alone Tivo users get a 4 tuner box as well? There are way to many good TV shows for 2 tuners to record them all.


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## tomhorsley

bschuler2007 said:


> I'm actually impressed with Tivo. I knew they dumped us retail guys for MSO development awhile back, but I really wasn't expecting alot. It's nice to see Tivo can make new products and better software.. even if I'll never see it.


What leads you to believe there will be better software?


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## sbiller

http://www.multichannel.com/article/469526-Cable_Show_2011_TiVpens_Up_Two_New_Boxes_For_Cable.php

DVR Vendor Also Upgrades iPad App to Access MSO Video Services

Pictures of the new boxes are in the article and also have been updated in the Zatz blog post.


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## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> We don't know. I am guessing.
> 
> TiVo uses a 2 chip design. Previously the chips they could choose from were
> 1 OTA/1 qam tuner
> 2 qam tuners
> 2 OTA tuners
> 
> As a result they could do any combo but to get 4 tuners and stick to the two chip design they would have to go with 2 of the 2 qam tuner chips. Now like I said there could be new tuner chips out and bkdtv would probably know but he seems to be MIA.
> 
> If someone now makes a single chip with 2 qam tuners and 2 OTA tuners they could offer a box with 4 tuners for either qam or OTA.


If they are making this box for MSOs, then why would they have OTA tuners in it? I would think they would make the one box with four tuners and no OTA and they would sell an identical one in retail as well.


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## reneg

Tivo's Press Release


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## generaltso

I'm guessing that the Q won't be able to stream live TV to the Preview. If it could do that, I don't see why you would need a cable card in the Preview.


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## aaronwt

generaltso said:


> I'm guessing that the Q won't be able to stream live TV to the Preview. If it could do that, I don't see why you would need a cable card in the Preview.


It won't be much of a whole home solution if it can't stream live TV.


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## TheWGP

Dave said that the leaks pretty much hinted the extenders would use their own Cablecards for tuning and so on - so it's unknown how exactly that functionality is going to play out. 

Remembering this is for MSO's, I could see them requiring a Cablecard to do anything with the box - that gives them cash per box, after all, and assuages any concerns about "omg you're letting other boxes see the live video" that paranoid media companies may have.

My guess is the Preview will still need a Cablecard to watch live TV, but that the streaming will only work for already-recorded shows on the hard drive of the primary DVR. It also remains to be seen if the Preview will work with any Premiere or just the Q - probably just the Q initially, but if there's a version that does not include MOCA, there might not be a hardware reason it wouldn't work with the original Premiere/PXL. That said, Tivo is famous for making hardware choices based on policy / what they feel like expending coding effort on - so what's possible in hardware may never come to pass.


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## innocentfreak

generaltso said:


> I'm guessing that the Q won't be able to stream live TV to the Preview. If it could do that, I don't see why you would need a cable card in the Preview.





aaronwt said:


> It won't be much of a whole home solution if it can't stream live TV.


Like TheWGP says, it probably won't stream live tv but will stream recordings. This avoids the issues of dealing with conflicts when only one tuner is free and both the Q and the Preview try to access the tuner.


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## dtremit

innocentfreak said:


> Like TheWGP says, it probably won't stream live tv but will stream recordings. This avoids the issues of dealing with conflicts when only one tuner is free and both the Q and the Preview try to access the tuner.


Pretty sure it has its own tuner. From the press release:



> TiVo Preview provides the full TiVo user experience for non-DVR households and also functions as a thin client complement to those using a TiVo DVR...


It couldn't function in a "non-DVR household" without a tuner.


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## innocentfreak

dtremit said:


> Pretty sure it has its own tuner. From the press release:
> 
> It couldn't function in a "non-DVR household" without a tuner.


Right so it won't stream live TV from the Q like I said.


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## ZeoTiVo

Dan203 said:


> So really this is just a regular Premiere with the 2 OTA tuners replaced by 2 additional QAM tuners. I wonder what took them so long?
> 
> Dan


tweaking the software to record the 4 shows correctly was likely some work.


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## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> Right so it won't stream live TV from the Q like I said.


I guess the point is you need to be able to watch live TV from the unit somehow. Otherwise it would not be very useful in a typical household.
Now if you can't pause live TV like a normal TiVo/DVR, I really wouldn't see the point in it.


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## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> tweaking the software to record the 4 shows correctly was likely some work.


I would imagine it also has to do with getting streaming working.



aaronwt said:


> I guess the point is you need to be able to watch live TV from the unit somehow. Otherwise it would not be very useful in a typical household.
> Now if you can't pause live TV like a normal TiVo/DVR, I really wouldn't see the point in it.


Right which is why the Preview has its own tuner so no need to tie up a tuner from the Q. I imagine it does full trick play on the Preview.

From the TiVo press release


> while TiVo Preview provides the full TiVo user experience for non-DVR households and also functions as a thin client complement to those using a TiVo DVR, creating a fantastic multi-room viewing experience. Both set-top boxes support the full integration of operator services such as Video on Demand, PPV, CallerID on the TV and linear programming, plus access to broadband applications and services.


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## innocentfreak

Also looks like no retail as of now...
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/more-tivo-premiere-q-details/


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## yunlin12

If they roll this in retail I would be all over it.

I have two Tivo's (PXL and HD), one with Comcast M-card, the second one is OTA-only. Most of my conflicts are broadcast network shows due to only 1 show time slot. OTA is usually enough to resolve any conflicts, so I saved the extra outlet fee and went OTA-only on the 2nd Tivo.

With 4 tuners, I can record all 4 major broadcast networks. Most cable channel shows (like FX, Sifi) have enough repeats that I never worry about conflicts. So even without OTA, a 4 tuner box would work perfectly for me, and I can finally get rid of that antenna I have sitting in my bedroom window.


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## Rob Helmerichs

I have a single HD, and the two tuners are mostly if not always adequate.

I've been holding off on any kind of upgrade until something perfect comes along. If Comcast offered a Q/cable box, that would just about qualify. Having the full range of Comcast's offerings plus the four tuners and (most of all) the TiVo interface, yeah, I'd go for that.


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## jwagner010

Screw Tivo. I have been a loyal retail customer of 8 years now. I don't mind so much that the Q and Preview are going through a Cable Company distribution channel, I can accept that if thats the business model they want to adopt (I don't like it but I can accept it). What pisses me off is that they sent me a survey (as a retail Tivo customer) asking if I wanted a Preview and Q like box. Why send me the survey if you had no intention of offering them through Retail channels. Not only do you show your retail customers no love with the latest offering you insult us and use us. I would rather go with a sub par DVR from TWC than deal with a company that uses and manipulates its customers. Shame on you Tivo. Please send me your next survey, I have some very choice feedback for you.


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## Bierboy

jwagner010 said:


> Screw Tivo. I have been a loyal retail customer of 8 years now. I don't mind so much that the Q and Preview are going through a Cable Company distribution channel, I can accept that if thats the business model they want to adopt (I don't like it but I can accept it). What pisses me off is that they sent me a survey (as a retail Tivo customer) asking if I wanted a Preview and Q like box. Why send me the survey if you had no intention of offering them through Retail channels. Not only do you show your retail customers no love with the latest offering you insult us and use us. I would rather go with a sub par DVR from TWC than deal with a company that uses and manipulates its customers. Shame on you Tivo. Please send me your next survey, I have some very choice feedback for you.


Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out......on second thought, let it....


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## andyw715

It would be nice if the new boxes did multiple source viewing (PiP or some other configuration) of the available streams (on board CC and those from the Q).


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## plazman30

aaronwt said:


> I guess the point is you need to be able to watch live TV from the unit somehow. Otherwise it would not be very useful in a typical household.
> Now if you can't pause live TV like a normal TiVo/DVR, I really wouldn't see the point in it.


Maybe there's some flash memory in there with enough capacity to buffer 30 minutes, so you can pause and rewind.

Andy


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## plazman30

It would be nice if you could buy a Preview and use it in conjunction with an existing Premier in your house. I rarely ever need to record more than 2 shows at once. But tossing a Preview in the mix. would let me add another TV with minimal costs.


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## jwagner010

Bierboy said:


> Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out......on second thought, let it....


Spoken like a true Tivo Employee, you sure your not the head of Customer Service at Tivo? If not I know a company where you would be a great fit.


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## Rob Helmerichs

jwagner010 said:


> Screw Tivo. I have been a loyal retail customer of 8 years now. I don't mind so much that the Q and Preview are going through a Cable Company distribution channel, I can accept that if thats the business model they want to adopt (I don't like it but I can accept it). What pisses me off is that they sent me a survey (as a retail Tivo customer) asking if I wanted a Preview and Q like box. Why send me the survey if you had no intention of offering them through Retail channels. Not only do you show your retail customers no love with the latest offering you insult us and use us. I would rather go with a sub par DVR from TWC than deal with a company that uses and manipulates its customers. Shame on you Tivo. Please send me your next survey, I have some very choice feedback for you.


So you're saying that if a company does a survey, and anybody says anything, they are responsible to act on that suggestion?


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## Stormspace

I'm having trouble getting excited about anything TiVo lately and certainly don't look forward to replacing every TiVo in my house to take advantage of something like this, even a retail version unless I can replace two of my TiVo's with a Q and a preview with only one sub.


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## sbiller

500GB hard drive
Currently under test in their labs with the Preview

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25973553-TiVo-TiVo-Premiere-Q


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## ppartekim

yunlin12 said:


> If they roll this in retail I would be all over it.
> 
> I have two Tivo's (PXL and HD), one with Comcast M-card, the second one is OTA-only. Most of my conflicts are broadcast network shows due to only 1 show time slot. OTA is usually enough to resolve any conflicts, so I saved the extra outlet fee and went OTA-only on the 2nd Tivo.
> 
> With 4 tuners, I can record all 4 major broadcast networks. Most cable channel shows (like FX, Sifi) have enough repeats that I never worry about conflicts. So even without OTA, a 4 tuner box would work perfectly for me, and I can finally get rid of that antenna I have sitting in my bedroom window.


I agree, I want a retail/online version of this that works with OTA. I have 2 Series3 w/lifetime and would love to upgrade to a one with 4 tuners. That would cut my maintenance/setup/video searching in half. I don't need a Preview as I already distribute both Series3 video through out my house for free now (use a harmony remote for control).

I have *absolutely no intention* to pay $60-$100/mo for cable, uverse, satellite when I get ~20 HD channels OTA for free (all networks, PBS, 6+ independents, etc). All the TV I need and have Hulu/Netflix for anything "cable" I really need to watch (which I do now via my ma mini -also with video distributed though out).


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## jwagner010

Bierboy said:


> Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out......on second thought, let it....





Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you're saying that if a company does a survey, and anybody says anything, they are responsible to act on that suggestion?


The survey was done 8 weeks ago. You think they created the Q and Preview in 8 weeks? It was a cheap PR exercise at the expense of Retail customers who completed the survey. And if it wasn't a PR stunt then Tivo should come forward with the results of the survey and its intent for the Retail channel. Did the survey results suggest no retail market? I am not saying they are responsible to act on any suggestion made, what I am saying is that for those of us who are not Tivo fanboys and see through these PR stunts are entitled to call them out. They had no intention on acting on the survey results for the Retail channel so why waste our time with the survey. I know that is hard for you to appreciate that Tivo may act in this manner and I am sure you will find an excuse to defend them. So respond away, perhaps we can count how many excuses you can come up for them.


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## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> 500GB hard drive
> Currently under test in their labs with the Preview
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25973553-TiVo-TiVo-Premiere-Q


Nice to hear it is already in testing, but that 500gb is pitiful.

It should have had at least a 1TB drive. I guess here is hoping they offer a XL version if TiVo ever offers it via retail.

It doesn't make sense to have more tuners but less space than 2 Premieres.


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## MichaelK

TheWGP said:


> Dave said that the leaks pretty much hinted the extenders would use their own Cablecards for tuning and so on - so it's unknown how exactly that functionality is going to play out.
> 
> Remembering this is for MSO's, I could see them requiring a Cablecard to do anything with the box - that gives them cash per box, after all, and assuages any concerns about "omg you're letting other boxes see the live video" that paranoid media companies may have.
> 
> My guess is the Preview will still need a Cablecard to watch live TV, but that the streaming will only work for already-recorded shows on the hard drive of the primary DVR. It also remains to be seen if the Preview will work with any Premiere or just the Q - probably just the Q initially, but if there's a version that does not include MOCA, there might not be a hardware reason it wouldn't work with the original Premiere/PXL. That said, Tivo is famous for making hardware choices based on policy / what they feel like expending coding effort on - so what's possible in hardware may never come to pass.


If it's for a cable company they would almost certainly like you to have a card- the rental fee is nice but they live and die for their vod/ppv/interactive crap and so they'll want the box to have a card for all that.


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## tivogurl

innocentfreak said:


> I wonder if they will stick with the 1tb drive from the xl or if they will be smart and go with the 2tb drive.


TiVo has always outfitted its boxes with meager storage. Why would they change now, when that's exactly how the MSOs TiVo is selling this box to outfit their own boxes?


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## MichaelK

sbiller said:


> 500GB hard drive
> Currently under test in their labs with the Preview
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25973553-TiVo-TiVo-Premiere-Q


preview has it's own tuner- so cablecard.


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## MichaelK

tivogurl said:


> TiVo has always outfitted its boxes with meager storage. Why would they change now, when that's exactly how the MSOs TiVo is selling this box to outfit their own boxes?


probably more accurately to say "tivo has always outfitted their base boxes with more room then any cable company dvr. For larger storage you have had to pay a premium and even then it isn't giant. As cable is always putting in the smallest drives know to man it's amazing that tivo got them to squeeze in anything over 160gb"


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## trip1eX

"When/if it comes to retail"

Preview can have a tuner and cablecard slot. But also needs option to let you watch streamed live tv from 4-tuner DVR without needing another cablecard. 


Also most of the big cable companies don't encrypt their network channels or at least FIOS and Comcast don't. Would that mean a Preview without a cablecard could at least watch those channels even if they didn't offer live streaming from DVR? I hope so.

Just trying to put a cork in the cablecard nickel and diming. SAme with any Tivo monthly fees on the Preview. Please tell me Tivo isn't going to nickel and dime us with Preview monthly fees. 

Bad enough they charge you monthly fees for a 2nd Tivo (after any subsidy ends.)


----------



## rainwater

trip1eX said:


> Preview can have a tuner and cablecard slot. But also needs option to let you watch streamed live tv from 4-tuner DVR without needing another cablecard.


The Preview box was designed for MSOs. They are going to charge customers for the extenders regardless. So it makes sense to include a tuner. Most likely, these boxes will come with the cablecards already activated in the box. With a tuner, there are no issues with the main box not having an available tuner. So, it is a good solution for MSOs, but it doesn't do much for retail customers (which is probably why it will not be available initially at retail).


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## trip1eX

rainwater said:


> The Preview box was designed for MSOs. They are going to charge customers for the extenders regardless. So it makes sense to include a tuner. Most likely, these boxes will come with the cablecards already activated in the box. With a tuner, there are no issues with the main box not having an available tuner. So, it is a good solution for MSOs, but it doesn't do much for retail customers (which is probably why it will not be available initially at retail).


Yeah preface everything I posted with, "when/if it comes to retail."


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## shaown

jwagner010 said:


> Screw Tivo. I have been a loyal retail customer of 8 years now. I don't mind so much that the Q and Preview are going through a Cable Company distribution channel, I can accept that if thats the business model they want to adopt (I don't like it but I can accept it). What pisses me off is that they sent me a survey (as a retail Tivo customer) asking if I wanted a Preview and Q like box. Why send me the survey if you had no intention of offering them through Retail channels. Not only do you show your retail customers no love with the latest offering you insult us and use us. I would rather go with a sub par DVR from TWC than deal with a company that uses and manipulates its customers. Shame on you Tivo. Please send me your next survey, I have some very choice feedback for you.


Why are you pissed? Because the first press release is MSO focused? Lets wait and see if Tivo releases a variant of this too retail. Might be a month away, might be a year away, might be never. We just don't know yet.


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## TWinbrook46636

"_Premiere will continue as our primary retail offering. Premiere Q is digital-only, built specifically for distribution by cable operators._"

I can't believe they're not going to offer the Premiere Q through retail.


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## innocentfreak

shaown said:


> Why are you pissed? Because the first press release is MSO focused? Lets wait and see if Tivo releases a variant of this too retail. Might be a month away, might be a year away, might be never. We just don't know yet.


Unfortunately I fear this will turn into a repeat of the series 2 for me. I dumped my series 2 to make the switch to DirecTV and the DirecTiVos. This was for three reasons. I wanted more recording space which DirecTV offered easily since I wasn't comfortable attempting the Linux upgrade. I was tired of the occasional issue with my cable boxes since they would lock up unless I shut them off for an hour or so every other week. Finally probably the biggest reason, I left for more tuners. This was before TiVo offered dual tuner series 2 which I and others had been hoping for and asking about for a long time. By the time they offered it, it wasn't worth coming back for and I didn't until I found the TiVo HDs on clearance at Sears.


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## yunlin12

jwagner010 said:


> The survey was done 8 weeks ago. You think they created the Q and Preview in 8 weeks? It was a cheap PR exercise at the expense of Retail customers who completed the survey. And if it wasn't a PR stunt then Tivo should come forward with the results of the survey and its intent for the Retail channel. Did the survey results suggest no retail market? I am not saying they are responsible to act on any suggestion made, what I am saying is that for those of us who are not Tivo fanboys and see through these PR stunts are entitled to call them out. They had no intention on acting on the survey results for the Retail channel so why waste our time with the survey. I know that is hard for you to appreciate that Tivo may act in this manner and I am sure you will find an excuse to defend them. So respond away, perhaps we can count how many excuses you can come up for them.


If the survey was only done 8 weeks ago, how do you Tivo already finalized their plans to go with or kill off the retail channels or not? The have been working on boxes for MSO for over a year now, with RCN and Virgin. Lets say if Tivo announces something now, but takes another 1 year to finish the retail product, what would be your reaction during this 1 year? You're just going to be yelling about how Tivo announced a vaporware, and still call anyone one that preaches patience "fanboys". Tivo can't do right by you no matter what.

Edit: come to think of it, if it will take Tivo a year to develop something new for retail anyway, you might as well go with the TWC (or whichever MSO you mentioned), try them out for a year, maybe you'd be happier.


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## jwagner010

shaown said:


> Why are you pissed? Because the first press release is MSO focused? Lets wait and see if Tivo releases a variant of this too retail. Might be a month away, might be a year away, might be never. We just don't know yet.


No one is pissed. Just moving on. You can give TiVo the benefit of the doubt, I won't be. Good luck to you all. Enjoy your Premieres.


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## tivogurl

RCN and Virgin are tiny, second-tier operators. Until TiVo gets in with a major, like Cox, I don't see this doing a lot for TiVo.

Now that I recall, Comcast has already announced its own 4-tuner box (however inferior that will probably be), so strike one major from TiVo's list.


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## rcnman

innocentfreak said:


> I would say it is probably for RCN for now. Currently RCN is redesigning their vod interface and also they don't support the iPad app yet.


We support the IPAD APP in 2 of the 5 markets, DC and MA and as we roll to 14.8 IPAD support is built in, Current Schedule has all RCN Markets on 14.8 by the end of JUNE.


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## innocentfreak

rcnman said:


> We support the IPAD APP in 2 of the 5 markets, DC and MA and as we roll to 14.8 IPAD support is built in, Current Schedule has all RCN Markets on 14.8 by the end of JUNE.


Ahh cool good to know. I didn't realize it was rolling out now, but I admit I don't keep up on it as much since no access locally.


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## morac

tivogurl said:


> RCN and Virgin are tiny, second-tier operators. Until TiVo gets in with a major, like Cox, I don't see this doing a lot for TiVo.
> 
> Now that I recall, Comcast has already announced its own 4-tuner box (however inferior that will probably be), so strike one major from TiVo's list.


TiVo is "getting in" with Comcast which is as major as you can get in the U.S.

http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/customrel...ersion=live&prid=753154&releasejsp=custom_150

The PR doesn't mention the Q, but it wasn't announced at the time. I'd be very surprised if Comcast offered the regular Premiere over the Q.


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## mattack

plazman30 said:


> Did I read the article wrong, or are these boxes for cable providers only?


Their press release says "initially" through cable companies only.



tomhorsley said:


> The Premier Preview sounds like a complete waste of hardware.


If it requires a subscription, I would probably agree with you. If it's a one time (low) price, I can see many people who would use it for other TVs.. heck, I could see using it with a TV in a different room with a treadmill for example.

I hope the 4 tuner one does come out for sale retail at some point, and they do a lifetime transfer offer -- that would be something to get me to upgrade from my S3 (well, that's currently dead -- still have to try to get a power supply or resuscitate it some other way) and TivoHD. Having more tuners in one box, PLUS faster transfers (to computer), is something that would be worth it.

Just like I stuck with my S1s for a long time, I never thought the S2s were an upgrade worth it.. nor to the Premiere.. until now -- IF it's available retail with a lifetime subscription.


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## TerpBE

The naming of "Premier" vs "Preview" will prove to be a huge marketing failure. The names are too similar; they will confuse customers way too easily.


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## plazman30

tivogurl said:


> RCN and Virgin are tiny, second-tier operators. Until TiVo gets in with a major, like Cox, I don't see this doing a lot for TiVo.
> 
> Now that I recall, Comcast has already announced its own 4-tuner box (however inferior that will probably be), so strike one major from TiVo's list.


Comcast already announced a partnership to roll out TiVos with On Demand alongside their boxes. Strike a win for TiVo there.

And TiVo has a lawsuit queued up against Verizon over the Echostar patents. I could see Verizon licensing the Premiere Q to avoid a long drawn out court case.


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## innocentfreak

mattack said:


> Their press release says "initially" through cable companies only.


So far davezatz doesn't seem real positive about it ever seeing retail. Of course only TiVo knows and they aren't saying.


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## wp746911

so does this mean they will enable the dual core on the premiere and fix the hd/sd menus?

I will only ever buy another tivo if it's 100% perfectly functioning (and awesome) out of the box- no more 'buy the premiere I'm sure they will fix it' junk.

I hope tivo succeeds in this venture, but it's gonna take A LOT on their part to convince me to spend my money on them.


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## TWinbrook46636

innocentfreak said:


> So far davezatz doesn't seem real positive about it ever seeing retail. Of course only TiVo knows and they aren't saying.


Unfortunately TiVo did specifically answer his question with "_Premiere will continue as our primary retail offering. Premiere Q is digital-only, built specifically for distribution by cable operators._" so it certainly doesn't look very good.


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## Dan203

ZeoTiVo said:


> tweaking the software to record the 4 shows correctly was likely some work.


If they designed the software correctly from the start then this should have been a simple switch. At least in the UI. The driver/OS side might have required some work.

Dan


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> Nice to hear it is already in testing, but that 500gb is pitiful.
> 
> It should have had at least a 1TB drive. I guess here is hoping they offer a XL version if TiVo ever offers it via retail.
> 
> It doesn't make sense to have more tuners but less space than 2 Premieres.


It could also be that the MSOs requested that it only have a 500GB hard drive. They typically don't give you much storage space in their DVRs. If it was only for the retail channel it probably would have been a 1TB drive since it probabaly would have been marketed as a unit above the Premiere XL.


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## ZeoTiVo

Dan203 said:


> If they designed the software correctly from the start then this should have been a simple switch. At least in the UI. The driver/OS side might have required some work.
> 
> Dan


I was indeed thinking of the driver/OS side. TiVo relies on the recording streams getting handled in real time so figuring out the interrupt pattern for 4 streams and still having a UI that is responsive would be a bit of a challange


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## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> It could also be that the MSOs requested that it only have a 500GB hard drive. They typically don't give you much storage space in their DVRs. If it was only for the retail channel it probably would have been a 1TB drive since it probabaly would have been marketed as a unit above the Premiere XL.


Oh I don't disagree with you though I would prefer a XL version with a 2 TB drive so that it was equal to 2 Premiere XLs especially as TiVo makes it tougher and tougher every model to upgrade the drive.


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## ghuido

Lot of great comments.

My thought it is good to see a 4 tuner box. I would love to see it in retail.

I have Comcast in my area. If the Premiere Q does come available sometime within the next year, I may seriously consider dropping my TIVO HD (Retail) and going with an MSO Provided TIVO. 

I would def. check if any features you get in the retail version are dropped from the MSO Version and vice versa

Retail Version

- Netflix Streaming
- IPad App
- Reviewing your To Do List, Now Playing, Season Pass Manager on TIVO Online
- Sending Recording Request through Tivo.com 
- Adding Additional Storage


MSO Version

- Access to VoD Content
- Streaming Capable

Those are key features.


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## tivogurl

plazman30 said:


> Comcast already announced a partnership to roll out TiVos with On Demand alongside their boxes. Strike a win for TiVo there.


I thought that was just an agreement for a software feature on standalone TiVos, not a deal for Comcast to use TiVo's new hardware. Comcast has already announced their new hardware, and it's not a TiVo.


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## shwru980r

If the Q box were sold retail, they would have to charge double the cost of the premiere or customers would consolidate two premiere subscriptions into one Q subscription. 

They might be able to offset subscription consolidation by only allowing the preview to stream content from the Q and charging the current subscription rates for the preview.


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## TheWGP

shwru980r said:


> charging the current subscription rates for the preview.


I think just about everyone agrees that the Preview will be a failure if it costs the same as a "full-size" Tivo box. Dave Zatz probably made the case for that best on his blog.


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## rainwater

TheWGP said:


> I think just about everyone agrees that the Preview will be a failure if it costs the same as a "full-size" Tivo box. Dave Zatz probably made the case for that best on his blog.


It's not a failure if MSOs advertise it as a whole home dvr solution. This hardware's main audience is cable companies, so the price isn't really a concern. Cable companies will most definitely be charging a rental fee. How well it sells at retail (if it ever is sold retail), really isn't a major factor in the success of the product.


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## RealityCheck

Without an embedded DOCSIS Modem, or a way to send IP packets to the headend without an additional external modem (currently required with RCN TiVo Premieres); this is useless for MVPDs. The only reason I see any MVPDs deploying TiVo boxen to customers is to avoid potential lawsuits. You can bet any agreement absolved the MVPD from future TiVo litigation.


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## TheWGP

rainwater said:


> It's not a failure if MSOs advertise it as a whole home dvr solution. This hardware's main audience is cable companies, so the price isn't really a concern. Cable companies will most definitely be charging a rental fee. How well it sells at retail (if it ever is sold retail), really isn't a major factor in the success of the product.


I think you misunderstood - if the monthly fee for a Preview approaches the price of a Premier's monthly service charge, as the prior poster suggested, the Preview will price itself out of the market since a full-featured Premier box would seem an attractive upgrade if the monthly price is close or perhaps even less with MSD. Certainly there are OTHER reasons someone might want an MSO-provided box (VOD, etc), but those are the same for a regular MSO box so they're not really "new" with the Preview.

The initial price / lack thereof isn't really a part of this. If anything, the fact that MSO's may charge nothing up front means their monthly fee is likely to be even higher - and besides, we all know that cable charges only go one way: up, generally at a rate higher than inflation!


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## MichaelK

TheWGP said:


> I think you misunderstood - if the monthly fee for a Preview approaches the price of a Premier's monthly service charge, as the prior poster suggested, the Preview will price itself out of the market since a full-featured Premier box would seem an attractive upgrade if the monthly price is close or perhaps even less with MSD. Certainly there are OTHER reasons someone might want an MSO-provided box (VOD, etc), but those are the same for a regular MSO box so they're not really "new" with the Preview.
> 
> The initial price / lack thereof isn't really a part of this. If anything, the fact that MSO's may charge nothing up front means their monthly fee is likely to be even higher - and besides, we all know that cable charges only go one way: up, generally at a rate higher than inflation!


I'd imagine the MSO charges about the same for the preview as they do for a regular HDF cable box. 6-8 bucks. The preview will just replace the 'normal' additional cable boxes in houses that have the q "whole home dvr".

If people rent from the MSO it's likely they wont have a choice of Q or 2-tuner premier. they will get what the mso decides to stock. If the MSO wants to sell "whole home dvr" then they will have q's + previews. If they MSO doesn't want "whole home" they will just have premiers.

without the MSO giving the option of premier or preview the customer wont be making any choices.


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## MichaelK

RealityCheck said:


> Without an embedded DOCSIS Modem, or a way to send IP packets to the headend without an additional external modem (currently required with RCN TiVo Premieres); this is useless for MVPDs. The only reason I see any MVPDs deploying TiVo boxen to customers is to avoid potential lawsuits. You can bet any agreement absolved the MVPD from future TiVo litigation.


the dslreports thread says:


> And it's a integrated MOCA Bridge


would that imply the tivo box is the cablemodem too? Or just that you plug the cabel modems ethernet into the tivo and the tivo converts it to moca for distribution over coax throughout the house?


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## sbiller

After listening to a 17 minute TiVo rant from the hosts of the engadget HD podcast tonight on the drive home from work I thought there were enough points made by Ben and Richard that it would be worthwhile to share. Ben and RJ are just about the most knowledgeable podcasters when it comes to TiVo.

Ben makes an excellent point about a possible reason for delaying a retail announcement related to the FCC CableCARD rules not requiring four simulataneous stream support until August 1st.

You can listen to the podcast here or download it to your ipod etc. 
http://hd.engadget.com/2011/06/14/engadget-hd-podcast-253-06-14-2011/#disqus_thread

// Unofficial transcript of Engadget HD Podcast 253 - 6.14.2011
// twitter: @sbiller

BD - Ben Drawbaugh (@bjdraw)
RJ - Richard Lawler (@rjcc)

//5:15 minutes

BD: Is there any TV News? Oh my goodness, they dropped the mother lode here. What's going on with TiVo today?

RJ: TiVo, new boxes from TiVo. Great news right?

BD: Right.

RJ: Not quite. You can't get them at retail.

BD: Oh man, are you kidding me?

RJ: And no plans for retail at the moment but they do have these two boxes.

BD: So basically these boxes don't exist.

RJ: Yeah. They will exist for cable operators if you have RCN and Suddenlink.

BD: But than who's going to buy them.

RJ: Which you probably don't have.

BD: Are these cable operators actually going to buy them?

RJ: At least RCN and Suddenlink are. They are on the list. They've been offering TiVo's for a while. They've got some reasons and I'll get into that in just a sec, some reasons why cable operators may be somewhat excited about this and its possible you could see, they just did a deal with Comcast, that you could see Comcast offering a box like this but its unfortunate that your not going to be able to buy this at retail because for example the TiVo Premiere-Q has four tuners. If you remember when the Premiere originally came out one of my big questions was why doesn't it have more tuners? And someone in the comments, I don't remember which one specifically put it down basically the only way I can, "this is what the Premiere should have been."

BD: Oh. Absolutely!

RJ: Its a quad-tuner box. It can stream to other boxes over MoCA or Ethernet. Its got a 500GB hard drive at least the one from RCN doesthat was posted on DSLReports. Shout out to Brennok Bob for linking that up for us. And the news kind of leaked over the weekend about these boxes there was an early post on TMCNet. You can check out the press release and get all of the official details. They also announced their first box with no hard drive in it. And they've been talking about this for the last couple of years. That they would get away from just the DVRs and have different devices that don't have hard drives in them and now that their doing multi-room you can kind of see how that's working. And that's what this is. Its basically a multi-room extender box that runs the whole TiVo interface but there's no DVR to it. One thing they did mention in the press release is its not just for multi-room. You could potentially get it for just the TiVo experience. You can watch TV and get online stuff. But I'm not really sure why anyone would want to do that.

BD: Now, can you -- does it still have its own tuners built-in it so you can pause live TV just like a regular cable box?

RJ: Well, there's no hard drive. No storage.

BD: You don't necessarily need a hard drive to pause live TV.

RJ: Where would it be buffered?

BD: To RAM or to a FLASH drive.

RJ: I don't think it has any FLASH storage.

BD: They didn't mention anything like that?

RJ: They didn't mention. I'm pretty sure if it had any storage in it they would have mentioned it.

BD: Well, they could have mentioned it as a feature to pause live TV.

RJ: Well they said specifically said it doesn't have any DVR capability in it. So I'm assuming that's what that means.

BD: Usually call that trick-play but not necessarily DVR. I know what your saying. They would have mentioned it if it did it.

RJ: Exactly. But I think the idea is that if you want to do that you would have the Premiere-Q in one room and you could probably do it that way.

BD: TiVo, I still hate you. Why is it that you. Why do you find a way to fail every time? Why? I just don't understand why they do this. Like they come out with this cool new product and its the first ever TiVo that's only available. I guess its not the first TiVo since they have DIRECTiVo. Technically the DIRECTiVo's back in the day you had to get through DIRECTV, remember? The first one.

RJ: Yes

BD: Sigh... TiVO, TiVo, TiVo.

RJ: But the reason why cable operators may be somewhat excited about this is their really tying cable VOD along with the other video offerings and they announced their iPad app which was also mentioned by RCN a few weeks ago on DSL reports that will also be updated so if your browsing through different video offerings on there it includes the cable VOD on there.

BD: The only cable operators who are excited about this are the ones that are too small to compete with Comcast, and TWC, and Verizon. What TiVo's done is they've went to these smaller cable companies who don't have the R&D to make their own iPad apps, and to make their own software, and they said you want to compete with the big boys? We've got software that nobody else can give you so you can compete with those guys and have your iPad app, your and have your internet scheduling, and have your iPhone app, and we'll implement your video on demand but what sucks is it only benefits the little guy. Probably the reason why its non-retail box is because they think it will make it more marketable and that people will  otherwise, why not sell more? Unless you thought that you were going to actually sell more of them by making it exclusive to the cable operators. Your only going to do it if you think your going to make more money. The only other possible explanation is that the quad tuner support for SA tuning adapter is not live yet and TiVo does not want to release these when people can't use all of the tuners. We all know TiVo. They're the kind of company that would rather not do something then do it half asses. Their a lot like Apple in that way. If they dont think they can make a feature complete they won't include copy & paste until they've got copy & paste ready. They would rather just not include it at all. Rather than include what they don't think is a decent solution. And we've seen TiVo do this before. Even the original TiVo HD had two ATSC tuners and two Satellite tuners. Right. You could only use two of the at a time. TiVo didn't want to explain to the user that these two tuners could only record these certain channels and these two tuners could only record these other channels. They didn't think that was a good experience. So they didn't let you do it, period. So I think, that's my only, thats the only nice explanation that I can find is that, A) these boxes aren't coming out any time soon anyway and TiVo doesn't want to pre-release them for retail. These things are going to be two or three months off and RCN customers are going to be chomping at the bit complaining about it. To me this is just bad PR. There is just no way this is going to spin good for them. I don't know what they were thinking. And its a good think I didn't write this piece because I would have been much more scathing. Let me tell you.

RJ: I was a little more scathing over the weekend. I was kind of out of hate by the time I wrote this for the official release. I had a little bit of hate.

BD: So lets just take that one thing out of it.

RJ: I did have one thing because you mentioned. Obviously, this is just for the small providers. They do have that deal with Comcast to tie into their video on demand.

BD: Yeah but I just think this is focused on RCN and Suddenlink and people who. Comcast is not interested in you using TiVo's iPad app instead of their iPad app.

RJ: Not necessarily but if they. This is a big if. If they do follow through with this deal to sell and install TiVo's at their locations. Maybe that will put it in a way for this to be accessible to many more customers than just RCN and Suddenling.

BD: Listen to this quote out of this thing. "TiVo advanced user interface to provide cable operators a cost effective and highly differentiating soluition. " I'm telling you. I would be shocked if Comcast and Time Warner Cable adopted this and Verizon.

RJ: We shall see but so far this is just the small guys.

BD: So lets just step away from the non-retail angle for a second. Were just going to put our rose colored glasses on and when this thing finally ships the quad-tuning SA tuning adapters are out and for those at home are thinking that Motorola had quad tuning adapters out I think that only 10% of TA's are Motorola. 90% are SA so Motorola TA's don't play much of a role. Most people who deploy SDV Tuning Adapters are deploying Scientific Atlanta so its not really as useful. Lets just pretend thats the case for one second here.

RJ: Okay.

BD: This box. Your saying it does have a tuner or your not sure it has a tuner?

RJ: The Preview does have a tuner in it.

BD: So you have quad tuners and you have a tuner at every TV. The reason I'm making a distinction here is because making those have tuners in them makes this a much more scalable solution. If you have a TiVo with 4 tuners in it and you add 3 Previews that lets say didn't have a tuner in it now you could basically only record one show while watching 3 others. You know what I mean. Or technically you couldn't watch anything. You couldn't record anything because all of them would be used watching live TV in 4 rooms in the house. So adding the tuners is important because now it scales better. Now you can watch 4 shows live and record 3 at the same time. That makes it scale out to the 4 rooms. The thing is. Your looking at 7 tuners at the same time. I record everything and there is almost never a time where 4 tuners isn't enough that a show isn't re-runned. Thats a magical number. 500GB hard drive I guess BrennokBob points out its going to ship with 500GB hard drive. It should. 500GB hard drives. Can you even buy 320GB any more? Think about it. You know what I mean? Thats just by default and of course you can add a drive. And who knows the retail version. An XL would probably have a 2 terabyte drive in it now. Its a pretty compelling DVR. It could very well be the greatest DVR available! If it ships at retail. As long as it ships with OEMs its garbage. It just is, I'm sorry. I dont care.

RJ: It has a CableCARD slot.

BD: All STB's have a CC, remember?

RJ: Oh yeah.

BD: That's the CC rules. The problem if its not retail it doesn't give you consumer choice, you can't switch providers, etc. There are still a few things the TiVo doesn't do that's really annoying. Maybe they'll fix that soon like you can't back up your Season Passes. You take the iPad app, you take the 4-tuner multi-room, I guess you don't have to, now that I said that out loud it sounds ridiculous.

RJ: laughing

BD: I guess what I'm saying is. The reason I'm mad that its cable operator only is because I can't have it and its very compelling. That's why I'm all annoyed here.

RJ: Laughing and that's what has a lot of TiVo fans up in arms about this announcement. We've been waiting for these new features. These new devices and now you tell us, hmmm, you can't have them.

BD: The more I think about it this is not unprecedented. I think back to the TiVo HD. For years if you wanted a high definition you had to get it from DIRECTV. For years now that I'm thinking about it.

RJ: Hasn't it been their aim to get closer to the cable operators. If you think about it the more mass market appealing option than selling retail. It may not appeal to the people listening to this podcast.

BD: Most people drive economy cars and live in apartments. TiVo's focus and a lot of stuff we write about. How many people have Kuros. How many people had blue-rays in the early days. We talk about Niche stuff and we always have had on engadgethd. Lets face it. It becomes boring. Ahhh.. More TiVos. More TVs. The TiVo to me has always been the Premiere product because you do care. You don't ask how much it cost. You ask about the features. Its like a $1000 blueray player or a $5000 TV or a $2000 pair of speakers. There is a market out there. We care about the high end. Its no different than the performance car industry, right?

RJ: BMW or Ferrari is like, we're going to compete with the Escort right now.

BD: Exactly, the problem is with TiVo. In their case their market isn't big enough and they haven't found a business model that really works. Their not charging a $1000 dollars. So its not like Ferrari that sells a car for $200,000 and they don't sell very many, a 1000 a year. TiVo can't do that. Not sustainable for what they sell their boxes for. I guess they have been in business for over 10 years. Really problem is the cable industry and that's why none of the big players are in it. It makes sense why TiVo would have to do this. I think I've said all I can say. Talking circles now.

RJ: We've had a good TiVo hate fest.

BD: I'm hopeful that as soon as the quad tuner tuning adapter. I'm hopeful that the new CableCARD rules go into effect when, in July?

RJ: Sounds accurate.

BD: Keep talking while I look that up.

RJ: Okay we're waiting on these new boxes. The Preview has a new look. The Premiere-Q looks like a Premiere. I was upset over the weekend. I was upset over the weekend because I'm still waiting on the updates to finish out the UI. The word on the DIRECTV. Dual-core support to speed it up.

BD: That's huge. Yeah. That's pretty crazy.

RJ: Little things that we've been waiting for more than a year now.

BD: I have this article that I wrote here about it but I can't find the date.

RJ: JohnW248 in the chat room is saying August or September. He's in our chat room so I believe him.

BD: I felt like it was July. But I guess July, August, September. Sometime in the hot time. Right.

RJ: Think we have enough of a TiVo rant in there?

BD: Yeah. Let's move on.

//end 22:16 minutes


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> After listening to a 17 minute TiVo rant from the hosts of the engadget HD podcast tonight on the drive home from work I thought there were enough points made by Ben and Richard that it would be worthwhile to share. Ben and RJ are just about the most knowledgeable podcasters when it comes to TiVo.
> 
> Ben makes an excellent point about a possible reason for delaying a retail announcement related to the FCC CableCARD rules not requiring four simulataneous stream support until August 1st.


Hmm I know I have read this theory before... oh wait I found it 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8556153#post8556153



innocentfreak said:


> Based off the past, TiVo doesn't like to announce things at CES. They feel they get lost in all the announcements.
> 
> I believe it was BKDTV who posted at one time that TiVo would have to go with a newer more efficient chip within a year or so to continue to meet the energy star guidelines, assuming they want to.
> 
> *My gut feeling says around September we may hear TiVo officially announce the 4 Tuner TiVo. This would be after the deadline for the FCC mandate that tuning adapters support 4 tuners minimum. It might even have a newer chipset since they would have to go with different tuner chips. *
> 
> I would then expect probably around March 2012 we might hear of a series 5 since it will now have been 2 years since the Premiere was announced. TiVo tends to like March to May announcements and July to September announcements from what I remember at least based off their history of reveals.
> 
> It wouldn't make sense to announce a series 5 just after unveiling a 4 tuner TiVo. I could potentially see the series 5 being more like the series 2 where it is released in the wild with no real announcement and is just updated internals. It also makes sense to hold off longer since we still haven't heard any decision from the FCC on Allvid.


----------



## sbiller

innocentfreak said:


> Hmm I know I have read this theory before... oh wait I found it
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8556153#post8556153


Haha. I missed that and @bjdraw didn't even credit you. Shame on him!


----------



## nrc

Even if TiVo had absolute certain plans to release a consumer version of these boxes why would they say that before they're ready? It would only damage current sales.

These boxes were announced now because TiVo and their cable partners wanted to tout them at a cable event. They won't be available until "later this year". It's way too soon to make any assumptions about what this means for retail availability.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> Haha. I missed that and @bjdraw didn't even credit you. Shame on him!


Hey I can't blame him, great minds think a like


----------



## Welshdog

kturcotte said:


> Hopefully it has 4 cable tuners AND 4 OTA tuners, if it ever comes to retail. I HIGHLY doubt Time Warner is EVER going to let Tivo develop their DVRs.


Why would TW not be interested?


----------



## rainwater

Welshdog said:


> Why would TW not be interested?


Because TW has the resources to develop their own DVR. This is why only small cable companies are listed on this announcement. TiVo can go to them and get them to agree since they want to compete with TW and Verizon.


----------



## TheWGP

nrc said:


> Even if TiVo had absolute certain plans to release a consumer version of these boxes why would they say that before they're ready? It would only damage current sales.
> 
> These boxes were announced now because TiVo and their cable partners wanted to tout them at a cable event. They won't be available until "later this year". It's way too soon to make any assumptions about what this means for retail availability.


Both very good points - especially sales of the PXL would take a hit, I imagine. I do wonder what the "masses" will think, though - they may just see a photo of a PQ on some news site or blog and not realize they can't even buy it. Perhaps they'll all get Premieres and fork over 20 bucks a month... or maybe not. 

I do think it's easy to get carried away speculating about retail availability right now. The 4-tuner TA thing is crucial. Thanks for reminding us all of that in such a level-headed way, nrc. :up:


----------



## Fofer

plazman30 said:


> It would be nice if you could buy a Preview and use it in conjunction with an existing Premier in your house. I rarely ever need to record more than 2 shows at once. But tossing a Preview in the mix. would let me add another TV with minimal costs.


Yes, this would certainly be nice.

More specifically, it would be LAME if the Preview doesn't work with a Premiere. It would be even LAMER if it worked, but wasn't available for retail sale. It would be LAMEST if there was some subscription fee associated with it!

So, to recap, in order to TiVo to impress me here, they need to make this Preview available for sale at a reasonable cost, for interaction with my current Premiere, and there needs to be no new monthly fee for it.

We'll see. I don't think these are unreasonable requests. For some sad reason(s,) I've conditioned myself by now to simply expect TiVo to completely disappoint me.


----------



## sbiller

Fofer said:


> More specifically, it would be LAME if the Preview doesn't work with a Premiere. It would be even LAMER if it worked, but wasn't available for retail sale. It would be LAMEST if there was some subscription fee associated with it!


Didn't I already read somewhere, maybe on Zatz's blog, that the Preview will work with the existing Premiere? It might have been on RCN.



Fofer said:


> So, to recap, in order to TiVo to impress me here, they need to make this Preview available for sale at a reasonable cost, for interaction with my current Premiere, and there needs to be no new monthly fee for it.


I can't see how TiVo will offer the Preview at retail without a monthly fee. It will be some smaller amount. Probably $4.95 or $7.99 per month and there will be a lower liftetime fee on it. Probably $199. The total life cycle cost of a Premiere-Q + Preview needs to be less than the total life cycle cost of two Premieres.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> Didn't I already read somewhere, maybe on Zatz's blog, that the Preview will work with the existing Premiere? It might have been on RCN.
> 
> I can't see how TiVo will offer the Preview at retail without a monthly fee. It will be some smaller amount. Probably $4.95 or $7.99 per month and there will be a lower liftetime fee on it. Probably $199. The total life cycle cost of a Premiere-Q + Preview needs to be less than the total life cycle cost of two Premieres.


It would have to have a fee. It's supposed to still give you the TiVo experience which means it has the TiVo software. Which means there would be some kind of fee to use it.


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## orangeboy

aaronwt said:


> It would have to have a fee. It's supposed to still give you the TiVo experience which means it has the TiVo software. Which means there would be some kind of fee to use it.


Unless they provided a TiVo Basic like Service, that only provided the necessities, such as software, account and TSN validation.


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## aaronwt

orangeboy said:


> Unless they provided a TiVo Basic like Service, that only provided the necessities, such as software, account and TSN validation.


Then it would need to have a higher upfront cost to cover the cost of the hardware.


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## Fofer

Hmm. Thinking about it, I'd say I'd pay up to $299 for the Preview, if it worked seamlessly with my existing Premiere.

If it has some kind of monthly fee? Sorry, no sold.


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## Philmatic

sbiller said:


> BD: *TiVo, I still hate you. Why is it that you. Why do you find a way to fail every time? Why?* I just don't understand why they do this. Like they come out with this cool new product and its the first ever TiVo that's only available. I guess its not the first TiVo since they have DIRECTiVo. Technically the DIRECTiVo's back in the day you had to get through DIRECTV, remember? The first one.


I love you Ben! lol


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## innocentfreak

According to Dave Zatz's recent Tweet, the Preview according to TiVo does trickplay, but sounds like it only has a small temporary buffer and not 30 minutes. He is compiling a list of questions to ask TiVo after the Cable Show is over so if you have any questions you may want to post him on his blog.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/more-tivo-premiere-q-details/


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## TheWGP

Interesting - I wonder how long it'll end up being. That could make some sense, though. If it's not aimed at "starting that show over that you picked up in the middle of" - and really, that's the argument for a full hour of buffer - then perhaps it's really just aimed at "I didn't hear that line" and "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT CATCH?" situations. Those don't need NEARLY the length of trickplay buffer. Of course, smaller buffer = you have to be more careful to catch back up to live if you want to replay another line / another play / whatever and not miss anything.


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## jmpage2

Am I correct in assuming that TiVo thinks people will pay for a TiVo subscription on, not only the new quad tuner box but also the box that serves no other purpose than watching live TV and shows recorded on another TiVo?

If that's the case, TiVo is run by idiots. I certainly don't plan on paying a subscription fee for a TiVo box that just views recordings from another unit. It's asinine.

TiVo seriously can't get their act together, and it is frustrating. How about a $499 bundle that includes the quad tuner recorder box as well as one of the preview boxes? How about a monthly flat fee that covers ALL TiVo use in a home regardless of number of preview boxes?

People have higher and higher number of DVRs in their home, and companies like Comcast are amazingly able to get away with charging $18 per month per box. There is an opportunity for TiVo here to under cut the competition price wise, because all that someone would need is a single TiVo DVR with four tuners and several of these Preview boxes that they could watch the recordings on... but will TiVo do this and grow share? No, they will do something moronic like treat each Preview box as another revenue stream because they are addicted to monthly fees per unit like it is crack cocaine. Stupid stupid stupid.

Why, oh why TiVo can't you get your **** together?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

"I don't know what TiVo's plan is, so I will assume it's something that makes them idiots, and then accuse them of being idiots."


----------



## morac

jmpage2 said:


> Am I correct in assuming that TiVo thinks people will pay for a TiVo subscription on, not only the new quad tuner box but also the box that serves no other purpose than watching live TV and shows recorded on another TiVo?


TiVo thinks people will pay a cable box fee to their cable company (since that's already happening) and that TiVo will get a licensing fee. It's actually a good revenue stream, if it works better than the normal cable boxes.

As TiVo has said, this isn't a consumer device so you won't be able to get it, with or without a TiVo subscription.


----------



## Fofer

morac said:


> As TiVo has said, this isn't a consumer device so you won't be able to get it, with or without a TiVo subscription.


Has TiVo actually said that, though? About both the Premiere Q as well as the Preview box?


----------



## jmpage2

Rob Helmerichs said:


> "I don't know what TiVo's plan is, so I will assume it's something that makes them idiots, and then accuse them of being idiots."


Let's just say that TiVo have proven their ineptitude with the business mis-steps (not to mention product mis-steps) of the past 24 months.


----------



## innocentfreak

Fofer said:


> Has TiVo actually said that, though? About both the Premiere Q as well as the Preview box?


No TiVo has remained pretty quiet. It is assumed that this might be the case but the wording of their press release makes it so it could go either way.


----------



## lessd

sbiller said:


> I can't see how TiVo will offer the Preview at retail without a monthly fee. It will be some smaller amount. Probably $4.95 or $7.99 per month and there will be a lower liftetime fee on it. Probably $199. The total life cycle cost of a Premiere-Q + Preview needs to be less than the total life cycle cost of two Premieres.


You have it correct if TiVo does come out with a retail version of the Preview and Q the two together must be a good savings over two TPs, as 2 TPs are more versatile except for coordinated scheduling and blocked MRV (unless the TP gets streaming as an upgrade). 2 TPs can give you over 600 hours of HD storage without any external hard drives, if one goes down you still have another until you can fix the broken one. Today 2 TPs with Lifetime and MSD can be had for about $970 + the cost of two cable cards (in my Comcast system that is $3/month for two). Most on this form can upgrade the HD record time from 90 hours to 630 hours on the two units for another $160 or less. I don't know how streaming works but now to watch a program on another TP from a TP it takes about 6-12 seconds to start the copy process, than you can start watching, It takes less than 1/2 a second to start watching a recorded program on you TP after finding the program you want.


----------



## sbiller

lessd said:


> (unless the TP gets streaming as an upgrade).


I think its pretty much a given that the TP will support streaming soon. It was leaked on RCN and than removed related to the 14.8 release.


----------



## Fofer

Once the Premiere gets streaming...
Then I'm going to want a Preview box to go along with that feature.

Will TiVo sell me one, for a fair (one-time) cost?



Please don't F this one up, TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Once the Premiere gets streaming...
> Then I'm going to want a Preview box to go along with that feature.
> 
> Will TiVo sell me one, for a fair (one-time) cost?
> 
> Please don't F this one up, TiVo.


I don't see how it can be a one time cost if it's going to be the TiVo experience. Espcially if it also has Netflix, Amazon VOD, Pandora, Blockbuster Hulu+ etc.

If they make the inital cost on the lower side and they have a monthly fee of only $3.95 to $4.95, I would think that would sell alot of the units. Especially if it also works with the 2 tuner Premiere.

But I would be very surprised if there was no monthly TiVo fee involved with it. Assuming they do sell it at retail channels.


----------



## Fofer

Paying for "lifetime service" is a one-time fee.


----------



## shwru980r

sbiller said:


> I think its pretty much a given that the TP will support streaming soon. It was leaked on RCN and than removed related to the 14.8 release.


Do you mean that the TP will both send and receive streamed content?


----------



## sbiller

shwru980r said:


> Do you mean that the TP will both send and receive streamed content?


Receive only. Are you thinking of it as a possible 5th tuner for recording on a Premiere to Premiere-Q?


----------



## Philmatic

aaronwt said:


> If they make the inital cost on the lower side and they have a monthly fee of only $3.95 to $4.95, I would think that would sell alot of the units. Especially if it also works with the 2 tuner Premiere.


Agreed, $99-$199 upfront and $4.99 a month is perfectly fair for a preview box. That would bring a 4 room setup to $34.80... which is fair for a 4 room, unified, now playing list, multi-room streaming TiVo experience with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and Pandora in every room.


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## sbiller

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivos-new-hardware-at-the-cable-show/


----------



## shwru980r

sbiller said:


> Receive only. Are you thinking of it as a possible 5th tuner for recording on a Premiere to Premiere-Q?


I was thinking that if I have 2 premieres and a Q, will I be able to stream content to and from each premiere or to and from a Q?


----------



## jadziedzic

Philmatic said:


> Agreed, $99-$199 upfront and $4.99 a month is perfectly fair for a preview box.


Plus about $8 a month for an additional digital outlet with CableCARD from Comcast (Boston region), and that makes the Preview a non-starter for me.


----------



## Fofer

My current Premiere is wired to all the TV's in my house. It works fine. All I want is an extender so a 2nd TV can easily watch _different_ recordings concurrently. I don't even necessarily need live cable TV there so in my case, I'm thinking the CableCARD in the Preview could be optional.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

innocentfreak said:


> No TiVo has remained pretty quiet. It is assumed that this might be the case but the wording of their press release makes it so it could go either way.


"Sadly, TiVos rep *clearly* stated that they have *no plans* to make this whole-home DVR hardware available to anyone but cable company partners"

Seems pretty clear cut to me. Not that it matters anyway as next generation CableCo DVRs are about to render TiVo obsolete. Wow. An HDUI that works as it should? From the CableCo?


----------



## orangeboy

TWinbrook46636 said:


> An HDUI that works as it should? From the CableCo?


Didn't the Premiere "work as it should" in PR Demo mode as well?


----------



## innocentfreak

TWinbrook46636 said:


> "Sadly, TiVos rep *clearly* stated that they have *no plans* to make this whole-home DVR hardware available to anyone but cable company partners"
> 
> Seems pretty clear cut to me. Not that it matters anyway as next generation CableCo DVRs are about to render TiVo obsolete. Wow. An HDUI that works as it should? From the CableCo?


Yeah which may mean it is time to revisit the infiniTV 4 or upcoming 6. I am waiting for now at least until cable cards are self install. Just need to find an easy conversion from wtv to mpg since I found someone who wrote a program to convert the filename to use SxxExx rather than a recorded date.



orangeboy said:


> Didn't the Premiere "work as it should" in PR
> Demo mode as well?


Truth be told I don't think anyone has publicly seen a complete ui. Dave might have behind closed doors but I doubt he could say if he has. I know at least 
during all the PR promotion they used rendered screens and the videos either 
used static images or were edited to show the ui is faster than it is. The iPad app video was definitely edited for speed though the app has gotten faster over updates.


----------



## trip1eX

Philmatic said:


> Agreed, $99-$199 upfront and $4.99 a month is perfectly fair for a preview box. That would bring a 4 room setup to $34.80... which is fair for a 4 room, unified, now playing list, multi-room streaming TiVo experience with Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and Pandora in every room.


I wouldn't say its fair at all.

Every other Tivo in your house should be able to get the guide data from the first Tivo. Shouldn't be any monthly fee for additional Tivos outside of paying off any subsidy.


----------



## trip1eX

That's just me though.


----------



## Fofer

Nope, not just you. I completely agree.


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> I wouldn't say its fair at all.
> 
> Every other Tivo in your house should be able to get the guide data from the first Tivo. Shouldn't be any monthly fee for additional Tivos outside of paying off any subsidy.





trip1eX said:


> That's just me though.


It all depends on what TiVo's contract with Tribune states. TiVo probably has to pay a licensing fee per box.

Of course once again Allvid could change this since one of the arguments is about licensing guide data.


----------



## magnus

Fofer said:


> Yes, this would certainly be nice.
> 
> More specifically, it would be LAME if the Preview doesn't work with a Premiere. It would be even LAMER if it worked, but wasn't available for retail sale. It would be LAMEST if there was some subscription fee associated with it!
> 
> So, to recap, in order to TiVo to impress me here, they need to make this Preview available for sale at a reasonable cost, for interaction with my current Premiere, and there needs to be no new monthly fee for it.
> 
> We'll see. I don't think these are unreasonable requests. For some sad reason(s,) I've conditioned myself by now to simply expect TiVo to completely disappoint me.


Gloom and doom. The market will dictate what the price will be. They may start out without some of this and quickly figure out that the market won't support it. It will work itself out.


----------



## mattack

I'm also wondering if people's existing Premieres will work with a cable-company-provided 4 tuner Premiere? (I would presume S3/TivoHD won't)


----------



## Fofer

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Wow.


 :up:


----------



## aaronwt

TWinbrook46636 said:


> "Sadly, TiVo's rep *clearly* stated that they have *no plans* to make this whole-home DVR hardware available to anyone but cable company partners"
> 
> Seems pretty clear cut to me. Not that it matters anyway as next generation CableCo DVRs are about to render TiVo obsolete. Wow. An HDUI that works as it should? From the CableCo?


I'll believe it when I see it and can use it. My brother will get it when available but right now the comcast DVR is terrible. I've still yet to see a DVR that is consistently as reliable as a TiVo for recording TV programming.


----------



## Series3Sub

If we ever see a retail Q4 it would make TiVo's monthly service fee of $19.99 seem closer to palatable. I could see some people willing to pay the fee for 4 tuners because for that level of service, plus the other things it can do and download, the fee seems reasonable.


----------



## atmuscarella

I love the way some people think. First you bit** about TiVo not selling the Premiere Q & Preview at retail and then you state you won't pay enough for either to make it profitable for TiVo to do so.

If someone thinks TiVo's pricing is too high they are certainly entitled to not buy TiVo's products/services. However to claim they should be selling you products at a loss is foolishness.

Just is case you missed it that is exactly what TiVo has been doing while attempting to find a way to make their company profitable. This can only go on for so long, investors have lost hundreds of millions of dollars so far and at some point the red ink stops or the company does.

There are 2 basic economic principals that come into play here:


Ultimaltely the "market" sets a products price. Simple this means a producer will/should charge as much as the market will pay (it isn't exactly that simple).
The second is if the market will not pay enough for a product to provide an acceptable profit for the producer, the producer will stop making the product.
If enough people are not willing to pay a high enough price for Stand Alone TiVo hardware and service for the hardware that is fine. Just don't be surprised when stand alone hardware goes away.

From what I can tell TiVo has/is attempting to generate income from a number of sources: 

Sale of Stand Alone Hardware
Sale of Service for Stand Alone hardware
Advertising and revenue sharing
Sale of hardware to cable/sat companies
Sale/licensing of software to cable/sat companies
Patient royalties
I don't know which if any of the above will actually end up being profitable for TiVo. But if TiVo really isn't going to bring the Premiere Q and/or Preview to the stand alone market maybe that is telling us something.

Thanks,


----------



## TheWGP

(Disclosure: IAAL, but I am not your lawyer!)

Just to inject a bit of background - there are securites regulation and disclosure reasons (chiefly, Reg FD, but there's more) why Tivo pretty much has to say "no current plans" at this time when they have nothing to announce.

This is actually one of the biggest reasons why Reg FD came into being - companies would tell their biggest clients or investors information about what was going to happen prior to the larger public or market knowing about it. I think it's indisputable that The Cable Show is, by definition, a gathering of people related to Tivo's largest interests. I'm furthermore quite certain that if Tivo said one thing about retail Q/Preview availability in private meetings with their partners or investors, and then said something different publicly, that would result in more issues with more parties than I could even begin to analyze in a short post like this. 

To put it succinctly, they said what they needed to and it means nothing for the long term. I do agree with Dave, though - retail availability before the end of 2011 would be a stretch, given likely exclusivity promises, real or implied, made to partners/investors.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Tivo just stopped issuing any new Tivo units to retail. That'd be a nice "soft exit" from the standalone end of things - keep the service up for all, but don't provide new hardware. If they summarily shut down the service for all standalone users, that would do nothing but cause lawsuits - unlike ReplayTV, there are enough Tivos and enough lifetime boxes out there that the money WOULD make sense to an attorney to handle the case. Wait a few years with no new hardware and attrition, if nothing else, kicks in.

That said, I think it makes sense to offer the Preview, even if not the Q, at retail. It fills a gaping hole in the Tivo lineup for some customers, and at least lets others save some cash - who wants to pay $99+14.99 for EVERY TV in the house?! This assumes retail on the Preview would be lower... which may not be true, but it would be difficult to make a case for its existence were it NOT cheaper than a Premiere.


----------



## killzone

trip1eX said:


> That's just me though.


Not just you. It's a freaking extender. There is no justification for a monthly fee.


----------



## orangeboy

killzone said:


> Not just you. It's a freaking extender. There is no justification for a monthly fee.


With that, I disagree. It is part of the Service, most likely falling under section "3.3 Network-Enabled TiVo Service Features.", or possibly under the more general section "3. The TiVo Service", specifically: 


> The "TiVo service" means these features *and any additional features and functionality* of the TiVo DVR that TiVo may, at its discretion and from time to time, offer.


----------



## shwru980r

I would think for retail they would just enable streaming to and from a premiere. They couldn't sell the Q and the Preview retail and have it be cheaper than 2 premieres or some customers would consolidate multiple premiere subscriptions.


----------



## aaronwt

killzone said:


> Not just you. It's a freaking extender. There is no justification for a monthly fee.


Of course there is. If it has a local copy of the TiVo software, which it sounds like it will, then a monthly fee makes sense. Besides if there is no monthly fee then people will buy the box instead of a regular Premiere which means money lost. And if that were the case then why even release it if it will mean less income.

Now of course no monthly cost would be nice, but realistically it doesn't make much sense to do that unless they can get a high profit margin from the initial sale.


----------



## Fofer

If it has no local storage, and I am not setting any season passes on it, I don't need it to have any guide data of it's own. 

All I want is an extender for my existing Premiere, so a house guest can watch something else concurrently in another room. The Premiere handles all of the recording and indexing of guide data. The Preview is just an extender. I don't need, nor intend, to pay a monthly fee for that "privilege."


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> Of course there is. If it has a local copy of the TiVo software, which it sounds like it will, then a monthly fee makes sense. Besides if there is no monthly fee then people will buy the box instead of a regular Premiere which means money lost. And if that were the case then why even release it if it will mean less income.
> 
> Now of course no monthly cost would be nice, but realistically it doesn't make much sense to do that unless they can get a high profit margin from the initial sale.


Pricing is simple, two Lifetime TPs cost $966 with 90 hours of HD storage and 4 tuners (if you have MSD on your account). With that setup most on this form can upgrade to 600 hours of HD storage for another $160 or so. So you can figure what the cost and value to a TiVo customer is on a TPQ and the Preview box at retail. Personally I like the $966 option, I would have to save a lot of money to consider the Q way.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Wow.


It's interesting... For years people have been saying that others are catching up to or surpassing Tivo. With UI's like that, and now SageTV getting plucked by Google, 2011/2012 is shaping up to be the year Tivo really could get left in the dust. A quad-tuner box will barely cover the cost of entry in the next 12 months. Could be time for Tivo to put up or shut up.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I guess I'm just different than most people. (Not that they haven't been saying that about me for most of the past 50 years... ). While the interface is nice, I don't really care. It's just the basic functionality of recording and watching shows that matters to me. When I had a Comcast box a few years ago, it fell woefully short of TiVo in that regard. Show frequently failed to record or were truncated. There was little control over future recording history...no way to prioritize, hard to tell what was going to record at a glance, etc. And while watching a show that was recording, when it stopped recording it would throw me out of the show; I'd have to start over and FF to the point I had reached. That last especially pissed me off.

As of January, when I was at my Dad's place in Florida, the Comcast box still had all those problems. In 2011, the Comcast box still hadn't reached the level of basic functionality that TiVo had when I first got one back in 2000.

And that's why I remain such a die-hard TiVo fan. It's too bad they seem to be losing so many die-hard TiVo fans, at least from the way the general tone around here has changed in recent years. I'm glad they finally seem to be succeeding at moving into the cable-box market; I've said for years that this would be the only way they'd survive. I hope it's not too late, and that the Q is picked up by Comcast. I really have no interest in what Comcast was showing in that video. It looks very pretty, but I doubt it will match TiVo, at least in regards to what matters to me.


----------



## wkearney99

Fofer said:


> The Preview is just an extender. I don't need, nor intend, to pay a monthly fee for that "privilege."


You pay for the whole Tivo experience. Until someone else ships a product that exceeds that level of functionality and ease of use there's little choice but to pay what Tivo asks. Time and again the tech market has seen products that competition just fails to beat. Some of it comes close enough for most folks. Assuming the competition is going to improve enough to pull ahead fails, time and again. Why? Good question, meanwhile Tivo continues to deliver a superior experience. It doesn't beat everything on all fronts, but it beats enough of them to make it a reasonably value proposition for it's subscriber base. We like it, it's better and we can accept the price that involves.


----------



## atmuscarella

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I guess I'm just different than most people. (Not that they haven't been saying that about me for most of the past 50 years... ). While the interface is nice, I don't really care. It's just the basic functionality of recording and watching shows that matters to me. When I had a Comcast box a few years ago, it fell woefully short of TiVo in that regard. Show frequently failed to record or were truncated. There was little control over future recording history...no way to prioritize, hard to tell what was going to record at a glance, etc. And while watching a show that was recording, when it stopped recording it would throw me out of the show; I'd have to start over and FF to the point I had reached. That last especially pissed me off.
> 
> As of January, when I was at my Dad's place in Florida, the Comcast box still had all those problems. In 2011, the Comcast box still hadn't reached the level of basic functionality that TiVo had when I first got one back in 2000.
> 
> And that's why I remain such a die-hard TiVo fan. It's too bad they seem to be losing so many die-hard TiVo fans, at least from the way the general tone around here has changed in recent years. I'm glad they finally seem to be succeeding at moving into the cable-box market; I've said for years that this would be the only way they'd survive. I hope it's not too late, and that the Q is picked up by Comcast. I really have no interest in what Comcast was showing in that video. It looks very pretty, but I doubt it will match TiVo, at least in regards to what matters to me.


At least with Cable you have a choice. For us OTA people the only ready off the self alternatives we have offer about the same functionality as VCRs did. Of course we all could build or have built a HTPC but that is a whole different discussion.

Thanks,


----------



## classicsat

Fofer said:


> If it has no local storage, and I am not setting any season passes on it, I don't need it to have any guide data of it's own.


Snip


> The Preview is just an extender. I don't need, nor intend, to pay a monthly fee for that "privilege."


The subscription fee for a normal TiVo is more than guide data, it is a license to use most features of the TiVo software (enabled by keys placed on the box).

The Preview, at least the one shown, is also a cable box.

If the Preview does go retail, I see it for selling for $149 or so, with no fees.
With no serviced Premiere in your home, it will be a simple guideless cable box.


----------



## [email protected]

Does anyone know if the Q will have 1Tb Ethernet? You certainly can do multiple streaming of HD content over 100Gb Ethernet, but I suspect there would a be potential for signal degradation with more than two streams unless on an idle wire. MoCA more likely can handle 3 simultaneous HD streams, as probably 802.11n.

Or perhaps the Q will do compression?


----------



## MikeAndrews

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If Comcast offered a Q, I'd be all over that.


If Comcast offered a Q they would charge 4 monthly HD box fees for one unit and it would not have MRV, Tivo2Go, all networking features, favorite channels and about every other TiVo feature would be missing until it was as dumb as any other Comcrap STB.


----------



## arw01

So the bigger questions is when will TIVO realize the comcast just stalls them, while the expand their base of DVR's right over the top of their shrinking company?

Be interested in going to a Premiere Q, but again all talk and no information.

Checked Xfinity site today on DVR, no mention of tivo anywhere on there. How many years ago was that test with TIVO?


----------



## nrc

arw01 said:


> So the bigger questions is when will TIVO realize the comcast just stalls them, while the expand their base of DVR's right over the top of their shrinking company?


That seems to be the tactic for Cox, Comcast, and DTV. They made deals that have allowed them to stall and marginalize TiVo while paying out relatively little to TiVo. TiVo's innovation has ground to a halt so eventually the patents they have will expire or get beaten in court while they're busy scrambling for MSO scraps.


----------



## trip1eX

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It's interesting... For years people have been saying that others are catching up to or surpassing Tivo. With UI's like that, and now SageTV getting plucked by Google, 2011/2012 is shaping up to be the year Tivo really could get left in the dust. A quad-tuner box will barely cover the cost of entry in the next 12 months. Could be time for Tivo to put up or shut up.


So is Google going to get into the cable set top box business?

combine some of the Sage tech, with the cloud UI stuff Comcast is showing and the ability to pick up your own cable card this August....

Could happen.

But of course average users aren't going to bother with cablecard setup. Takes awhile to approve equipment through CableLabs. And consumers don't like to pay money up front for boxes even if it saves them money in the longer run.

Maybe more likely they make streaming boxes combined with OTA tv?

Anyway watched some of that Comcast video and seems like Google make money off the UI of a cable set top box.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> If it has no local storage, and I am not setting any season passes on it, I don't need it to have any guide data of it's own.
> 
> All I want is an extender for my existing Premiere, so a house guest can watch something else concurrently in another room. The Premiere handles all of the recording and indexing of guide data. The Preview is just an extender. I don't need, nor intend, to pay a monthly fee for that "privilege."


It has a tuner so it would need guide data. And then it would need to be able to communicate with a Premiere that can record so you can schedule recordings too as well as create season passes, etc.
At least that is what I would expect. When they say you get the TiVo experience with it.


----------



## classicsat

[email protected] said:


> Does anyone know if the Q will have 1Tb Ethernet? You certainly can do multiple streaming of HD content over 100Gb Ethernet, but I suspect there would a be potential for signal degradation with more than two streams unless on an idle wire. MoCA more likely can handle 3 simultaneous HD streams, as probably 802.11n.
> 
> Or perhaps the Q will do compression?


All indications, to me, is they will use MoCA,or similar coax networking.


----------



## aaronwt

Did they ever say how many Previews could Access the Premiere Q concurrently? MoCA has more than enough bandwidth. 100BT though could be lacking if they go past three streams.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> Did they ever say how many Previews could Access the Premiere Q concurrently? MoCA has more than enough bandwidth. 100BT though could be lacking if they go past three streams.


The press release I believe mentioned three streams.


----------



## mattack

atmuscarella said:


> At least with Cable you have a choice. For us OTA people the only ready off the self alternatives we have offer about the same functionality as VCRs did. Of course we all could build or have built a HTPC but that is a whole different discussion.
> 
> Thanks,


What the heck are you talking about?

Tivos work OTA, just as well (if not better, since you don't need cablecards!) OTA than they do for cable...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

mattack said:


> What the heck are you talking about?
> 
> Tivos work OTA, just as well (if not better, since you don't need cablecards!) OTA than they do for cable...


I think that's his point...if you have cable, there are alternatives; if you're OTA, it's TiVo or something that's no better than a VCR.


----------



## atmuscarella

mattack said:


> What the heck are you talking about?
> 
> Tivos work OTA, just as well (if not better, since you don't need cablecards!) OTA than they do for cable...


You have to look at what I was responding too. That poster was talking about how he didn't like cable DVRs and that was why he was still a TiVo fan. I simple stated that at least he had modern alternatives, where as OTA users really have no alternative to TiVo, other than VCR type DVRs. For the record I am OTA only and use all 3 of my HD TiVos for OTA and also think they are all great OTA DVRs.

Thanks,


----------



## yunlin12

Tivo just signed a deal with Entropics to put MOCA in their HW, I hope it will make it into the Q

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jun/21/entropic-partners-tivo-multiroom-dvr/


----------



## Aero 1

yunlin12 said:


> Tivo just signed a deal with Entropics to put MOCA in their HW, I hope it will make it into the Q
> 
> http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jun/21/entropic-partners-tivo-multiroom-dvr/


they already said it will be in Q when the announcement was made last week


----------



## yuckydog

> LOLOLOLOL - I think any prognostication on a DirecTivo release date is wishful thinking, for a variety of reasons. DirecTivo isn't in Duke Nukem Forever vaporware territory, but it's getting there.


http://www.dukenukemforever.com/


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, and then it came out to a resounding thud.


----------



## LoadStar

yuckydog said:


> http://www.dukenukemforever.com/


That's the point. Years behind schedule, and when it comes out it's an outdated mess of a product no one in their right mind would want.


----------



## aaronwt

LoadStar said:


> That's the point. Years behind schedule, and when it comes out it's an outdated mess of a product no one in their right mind would want.


I certainly liked it better than the recent Red Faction title(Xbox 360). I made the mistake of buying the Red Faction title and renting the Duke Nukem title. I wish that were reveresed. I liked the Duke Nukem title much better. Nothing great but it brought back some good memories of game playing in the late 90's and early 2000's when I gamed on PCs.

I'll probably rent it from RedBox again when I have a good chunk of time to play it.


----------



## innocentfreak

Looks like the FCC may be the reason we may or may not see a TiVo Premiere Elite (Q). Currently TiVo would have to get a waiver to sell without analog tuners and to add analog tuners it would raise the cost $80-$100.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-headed-to-retail-as-premier-elite/


----------



## davezatz

innocentfreak said:


> Looks like the FCC may be the reason we may or may not see a TiVo Premiere Elite (Q). Currently TiVo would have to get a waiver to sell without analog tuners and to add analog tuners it would raise the cose $80-$100.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-headed-to-retail-as-premier-elite/


It'll still be a huge marketing challenge, as digital cable only - no analog, and no OTA. Could end up costing them a lot in returns and bad vibes if they don't target and explain well. And I want the Preview more, anyway.


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> It'll still be a huge marketing challenge, as digital cable only - no analog, and no OTA. Could end up costing them a lot in returns and bad vibes if they don't target and explain well. And I want the Preview more, anyway.


I could definitely see it being challenging, but if they required you to do a form of guided setup on their website as a way to verify it might not be a bad idea.

Well if they package the Premiere and Preview as one item, I know of at least one you will be able to buy .

Of course if TiVo desktop was like Media Center and I could just add my own tuners, I would just build my own with Premieres as extenders.


----------



## aaronwt

What did Moxi do when they sold their all digital box? You needed an Add on USB tuner if you wanted to view analog channels.


----------



## davezatz

aaronwt said:


> What did Moxi do when they sold their all digital box? You needed an Add on USB tuner if you wanted to view analog channels.


They confused a lot of people and were forced to back peddle with that analog tuner accessory which now sells for like $130. They're not a role model.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> They confused a lot of people and were forced to back peddle with that analog tuner accessory which now sells for like $130. They're not a role model.


I wouldn't look at them as a role model. Only that they were able to sell an all digital box. And if they were able to get a waiver I would hope TiVo could get one too. Analog is shrinking anyway. Although will analog brodcasts cease to exist anytime soon? Are there any requirements to drop analog in the future?


----------



## davezatz

aaronwt said:


> I wouldn't look at them as a role model. Only that they were able to sell an all digital box.


How many did they sell?  Dozens? Hundreds?


----------



## jlb

So here's what I forget.....

Assuming the Q is coming to retail per Dave's blog, and with a 2TB drive (I assume that since Dave's post notes "300 hours").....

ok, given that, we can no longer buy at retail and swap a TiVo with another on our account without affecting pricing, right?

I have one TiVoHD. Wouldn't mind replacing it with the Premiere Q, but my HD is at $6.95. don't want to lose that.

Also....does the new FCC rules on August 1 include that the now/then required M-cards have to be able to handle 4 streams? If not, is the Premiere Q being built with two card slots to be able to handle it.....?s ?s ?s


----------



## Saxion

davezatz said:


> It'll still be a huge marketing challenge, as digital cable only - no analog, and no OTA.


Are you sure the Elite won't have ATSC OTA tuners? The Q lacks ATSC tuners, but it's not clear to me that the Elite will as well.

Edit: The FCC filing does appear to lump analog and ATSC together (referring to "analog/ATSC tuners") and also basically states that the Q and the Elite are nearly identical, so it looks like no ATSC on the Elite.


----------



## innocentfreak

jlb said:


> ok, given that, we can no longer buy at retail and swap a TiVo with another on our account without affecting pricing, right?
> 
> I have one TiVoHD. Wouldn't mind replacing it with the Premiere Q, but my HD is at $6.95. don't want to lose that.
> 
> Also....does the new FCC rules on August 1 include that the now/then required M-cards have to be able to handle 4 streams? If not, is the Premiere Q being built with two card slots to be able to handle it.....?s ?s ?s


M-cards have always supported up to 6 streams. It is the tuning adapters and only some of them up until now that have only supported 2 streams. As of August those will have to support 4 streams minimum.


----------



## innocentfreak

Saxion said:


> Are you sure the Elite won't have ATSC OTA tuners? The Q lacks ATSC tuners, but it's not clear to me that the Elite will as well.


This is why they are filing the waiver posted on Dave's site.

From the posting


> This device  the Premiere Elite  will provide a new option for consumers that currently can obtain an all-digital DVR only from a multichannel video program distributor like their local cable operator.


----------



## Saxion

innocentfreak said:


> This is why they are filing the waiver posted on Dave's site.


The waiver is for analog _cable_ tuners. FCC doesn't care one way or the other about OTA tuners. However, a closer read of the filing does seem to preclude ATSC tuners.


----------



## davezatz

The more I think about it, the more excited I get. One Premier Elite (aka "Super TiVo") and a couple Previews sprinkled about the house. Now TiVo could find the same analog issue with the Preview if they release the same model destined for cable. But if they release it with NO tuners, the situation changes somewhat. The aforementioned Moxi streams LIVE TV from main DVR to extender... Hm.


----------



## Saxion

davezatz said:


> Now TiVo could find the same analog issue with the Preview if they release the same model destined for cable.


Curious that TiVo did not include the Preview in their waiver request. Implies that either they are not planning to offer it to retail (boo!), or they have a different, tuner-less Preview up their sleeves to offer to retail (yay!).


----------



## davezatz

Saxion said:


> Curious that TiVo did not include the Preview in their waiver request. Implies that either they are not planning to offer it to retail (boo!), or they have a different, tuner-less Preview up their sleeves to offer to retail (yay!).


Or, they won't offer it unless they can get the Premiere Elite waiver first. Hm.


----------



## ab3tx

Could they release the Preview with a different tuner/chipset than the Q (current Premiere model, perhaps?) that allows for QAM/ATSC/Analog?


----------



## davezatz

ab3tx said:


> Could they release the Preview with a different tuner/chipset than the Q (current Premiere model, perhaps?) that allows for QAM/ATSC/Analog?


Sure, but it'd add cost and complexity to something that might already be difficult to explain in retail. Hm.


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> The more I think about it, the more excited I get. One Premier Elite (aka "Super TiVo") and a couple Previews sprinkled about the house. Now TiVo could find the same analog issue with the Preview if they release the same model destined for cable. But if they release it with NO tuners, the situation changes somewhat. The aforementioned Moxi streams LIVE TV from main DVR to extender... Hm.


I am trying not to get excited. It helps to think that this is what the XL should have been at release and instead I would have those right now.


----------



## kturcotte

Has it been stated flat out that the Premiere Elite would NOT have OTA tuners?


----------



## morac

I'm confused as to why TiVo needs a waiver to sell it to consumers, but not to cable companies who then deploy it to customers. Does that mean the cable companies already have a waiver?


----------



## rainwater

morac said:


> I'm confused as to why TiVo needs a waiver to sell it to consumers, but not to cable companies who then deploy it to customers. Does that mean the cable companies already have a waiver?


Cable companies are only going to use the box in markets that are already all digital. There is no need to get a waver since there's no need to "protect" the consumer in this case.


----------



## jrtroo

rainwater- you are missing an important concept:

TiVo is marketing this to cablecos, but they also want to market this to consumers. 

The waiver is related to consumers, where TiVo's read of the CableLabs certification is that they must include an analog tuner, making units much more costly.


----------



## trip1eX

This could be nice. Don't think I could buy in if it still had a laggy HDUI though.

The rest depends on price for me. 2TB storage is cheap so they better not charge an arm and a leg for it. 

Really could do without the THX and lighted remote too. But no doubt they are doing to throw those in there to fatten the margins on this thing.

Any chance its under $700? Or I guess with the new pricing structure that would be under $500. Not including lifetime.

JUst remember Tivo. WMC is looking tempting since that 4-tuner cable card tuner dropped to $299 and below. Just wish they had a great extender for it.

What if someone hacked the Premiere to be an extender for WMC? What a steal it would be for $99.


----------



## rainwater

jrtroo said:


> rainwater- you are missing an important concept:
> 
> TiVo is marketing this to cablecos, but they also want to market this to consumers.
> 
> The waiver is related to consumers, where TiVo's read of the CableLabs certification is that they must include an analog tuner, making units much more costly.


The FCC waiver is only needed for the consumer versions afaik.


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> What if someone hacked the Premiere to be an extender for WMC? What a steal it would be for $99.


You couldn't though since to do an extender at least like how Microsoft does it, you use a special remote desktop protocol. You can't even use RDP from one computer to another to use 7MC.

Now there are patches out there that are supposed to allow you to use FFmpeg with WTV files so you might be able to rig something up with Streambaby. Of course there are tools out there now to convert WTV to MPG files for copy freely content.


----------



## mattack

Semi-tangential, but the Q doesn't have only digital output, right? I for one use the analog OUTPUT of my TivoHD often -- to go to my hard drive/DVD recorder. (and, unfortunately, have to unplug/plug the HDMI when I want to view the hard drive/DVD recorder's output, since my new TV apparently tells the Tivo that HDCP is not supported when it's not the current input).

In other words, even with a digital-receiving-only box, I hope there's at least one more generation of boxes that has analog outputs.


----------



## rv65

Motorola TA's support 6 tuners, but there are some cableco's that use the older firmware which only supports 2 tuners. As long as your cableco has the 6 tuner firmware, you are fine. TWC is testing a 6 tuner TA firmware in North Carolina, though it should be out sometime in August. This new firmware probably fixes the bugs that plague the Cisco TA.


----------



## sbiller

rv65 said:


> Motorola TA's support 6 tuners, but there are some cableco's that use the older firmware which only supports 2 tuners. As long as your cableco has the 6 tuner firmware, you are fine. TWC is testing a 6 tuner TA firmware in North Carolina, though it should be out sometime in August. This new firmware probably fixes the bugs that plague the Cisco TA.


Per the FCC Ruling a minimum of four channels must be supported by August 1st,



> (4) Effective August 1, 2011, provide, through the use of a commonly used interface and published specifications for communication, firmware-upgradable navigation devices with the ability to tune simultaneously as many switched-digital channels as the greatest number of streams supported by any set-top box provided by the cable operator, or four simultaneous channels, whichever is greater;


----------



## aaronwt

mattack said:


> Semi-tangential, but the Q doesn't have only digital output, right? I for one use the analog OUTPUT of my TivoHD often -- to go to my hard drive/DVD recorder. (and, unfortunately, have to unplug/plug the HDMI when I want to view the hard drive/DVD recorder's output, since my new TV apparently tells the Tivo that HDCP is not supported when it's not the current input).
> 
> In other words, even with a digital-receiving-only box, I hope there's at least one more generation of boxes that has analog outputs.


The days of analog outputs is certainly numbered. But I would think it should be around for a few more years. BD players won't drop analog outputs until the beginning of 2014.


----------



## jlb

innocentfreak said:


> M-cards have always supported up to 6 streams. It is the tuning adapters and only some of them up until now that have only supported 2 streams. As of August those will have to support 4 streams minimum.


ok....stupid question.....

Is it possible that a TiVoHD could then handle more than 2 tuners? I.e., are there physical digital tuners or are they....er.....software based?


----------



## innocentfreak

jlb said:


> ok....stupid question.....
> 
> Is it possible that a TiVoHD could then handle more than 2 tuners? I.e., are there physical digital tuners or are they....er.....software based?


It is physical. TiVo uses a 2 chip design with each chip having a set number and type of tuners. On the TiVo HD, they use a matching pair of chips from what I remember. Each chip has 1 OTA/1 Analog/1 Qam so with 2 chips you can use any combination but only 2 tuners at once.

In the Elite/Q it is believed they are using 2 chips with 2 Qam tuners only on each chip which allows for a total of 4 tuners at once.


----------



## jlb

Ah ok. I get it.

I am going to need a third tuner for one evening next season (well 2012). I don't want to get another Tivo/sub just for that. 

Will likely either utilize Amazon VOD or perhaps Hulu.


----------



## aaronwt

jlb said:


> Ah ok. I get it.
> 
> I am going to need a third tuner for one evening next season (well 2012). I don't want to get another Tivo/sub just for that.
> 
> Will likely either utilize Amazon VOD or perhaps Hulu.


Just one evening?


----------



## jlb

yeah. We just have basic cable with just locals (in HD). Our two tuners are more than enough for us.


----------



## DocNo

ShoutingMan said:


> A four-tuner box with extenders could potentially drop the cost for multi-room by hundreds. Currently, a four-tuner solution is 2 Premiere's (2x$99) and two Lifetime's (2x$499) or $1200 (maybe $1000 if there are $399 lifetimes). And you have to manually manage the two separate boxes. This new system might be $199 for the box, $99 for an extender, and $499 for lifetime, a $700 total, a $400 savings.


I think it's cute you assume a cable company would support lifetime


----------



## DocNo

shwru980r said:


> Does such a device even exist? The few 4+ tuner devices I've seen for HTPCs are cable only also.


Yes but for an HTPC you can always add another OTA tuner.

Which reminds me, I should really play with the current version of media center. Perhaps it's all I need after all! No monthly fee's, that's for sure!


----------



## innocentfreak

7MC is good, and there are definite things I like over TiVo such as some of their season pass settings, but overall I prefer TiVo.

I keep looking at building a 7MC server of sorts. It would house at least one InfiniTV 4 and then I would just use the Premieres for playback. Of course the problem is getting the WTV files renamed into something like 
Chuck - S04E13 - Chuck Versus the Push Mix.WTV for better organization. Then there is still the matter of converting to MPG since last I looked FFmpeg can't handle WTV files yet.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Agreed - 7MC is way more powerful with all the add-ons, but the user experience is not as good as Tivo's. Especially on the extenders. I do run both in my house and by far prefer the Tivos.


----------



## jwagner010

Will the Q finally be DNLA compliant/capable?


----------



## classicsat

Well, since the Q is aimed at MSOs, and MSOs do not likely to obtain or use content from other than them, I would doubt it.

If there were to be a "Standalone" consumer owned Q/Preview, then possibly.


----------



## rainwater

classicsat said:


> Well, since the Q is aimed at MSOs, and MSOs do not likely to obtain or use content from other than them, I would doubt it.
> 
> If there were to be a "Standalone" consumer owned Q/Preview, then possibly.


It will probably be the same basic software as the current Premiere. TiVo has never shown any interest in DLNA support, so I would say the chances are about zero percent.


----------



## sbiller

rainwater said:


> It will probably be the same basic software as the current Premiere. TiVo has never shown any interest in DLNA support, so I would say the chances are about zero percent.


TiVo wants people to stay in their eco-system so they can perform audience measurement, insert advertisements, sell additional subscriptions (Preview, Best Buy Insignia TV, additional Premiere's), etc. Support for DLNA would be a nice feature but the business effects mean that TiVo will not support it unless they are required to support it due to mandate or competitive pressure.


----------



## aaronwt

What would DLNA get me? With my media players I just access my Samba shares and all my content is available.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> What would DLNA get me? With my media players I just access my Samba shares and all my content is available.


DLNA is one of the main standards for accessing media on a network as such there are a number of programs and hardware devices (routers, NAS drives, media servers, etc) with built in DLNA support. TiVo tends to avoid standards for some reason (with mDNS support being an exception). As such rather than simply running a DLNA server, something like TiVo Desktop is needed.


----------



## b_scott

so this seems like Moxi for cable providers..


----------



## davezatz

b_scott said:


> so this seems like Moxi for cable providers..


It's more like Verizon than Moxi. Moxi streams live TV from DVR to extender. TiVo's 'extender' in this case is a regular set-top box with CableCARD and tuner, so it gets live TV on its own.


----------



## turbobozz

DocNo said:


> Yes but for an HTPC you can always add another OTA tuner.
> 
> Which reminds me, I should really play with the current version of media center. Perhaps it's all I need after all! No monthly fee's, that's for sure!


I live in Bristow too.
I'm running both TiVo and MC w/ a Ceton card and a SiliconDust OTA tuner.

MC wins in my house over TiVo for a few reasons:
- Comcast is $%&*$%#*$&^
- A single centralized recording/storage host for 5 TVs
- ONE cable card to rent (Comcast is #$(&#^(%@ again)
- No monthly fee for the MC host
- No ads (minor, but still significant)

TiVo is getting closer and closer, but it's just not there yet for me... and I don't think I'd switch back over to TiVo as my main DVR at this point unless they provided a significant advantage.
And finish the HDUI.

I might be with slowbiscuit on this one if I was only dealing with one or two TVs, but I actually like the MC interface.
TiVo does have the advantage of being "comfortable" and having that appliance feel.
Oddly enough... I have an HP MediaSmart server like the one aaronwt has modded for massive amounts of centralized TiVo storage... So I *could* make a big centralized TiVo storage area if I was willing to pay for more cable cards and more TiVo service.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Yep, once you move past a couple of TVs a 7MC setup has a lot of advantages with the Ceton card. I just wish we had more choices with extenders, because the existing ones suck in various ways compared to using Tivos.


----------



## tivogurl

I like 7MC, but it seems like a dead product. From what I read in various 7MC forums, Microsoft (like TiVo) has invested very little in bug fixes and upgrades to 7MC in the last few years.


----------



## shwru980r

If Tivo opened up streaming with DLNA, I think many customers with multiple Tivos would reduce Tivo subscriptions and Tivo would lose money. Plus multiple tivos provide the customer with redundancy so if one Tivo breaks down, there is still programming available for viewing.


----------



## RichB

shwru980r said:


> If Tivo opened up streaming with DLNA, I think many customers with multiple Tivos would reduce Tivo subscriptions and Tivo would lose money. Plus multiple tivos provide the customer with redundancy so if one Tivo breaks down, there is still programming available for viewing.


or they will lose some but gain many new customers who have been waiting for an open platform. Better to become obsolete ?

- Rich


----------



## lessd

shwru980r said:


> If Tivo opened up streaming with DLNA, I think many customers with multiple Tivos would reduce Tivo subscriptions and Tivo would lose money. Plus multiple tivos provide the customer with redundancy so if one Tivo breaks down, there is still programming available for viewing.


Do people on this form think that DLNA is a widely known standard ? I have asked many people who know what a DVR is but have no idea what DLNA is or how to set up such a system, it took about 7 years for WiFi in homes to become commonplace, it will take at least that long for DLNA to become common, look what happen to Blue-tooth, and that been out for years. When it was made simple to use for cell phones users and became standard in cars and earpieces, it took off, but that was never the original idea for Blue-tooth


----------



## morac

lessd said:


> Do people on this form think that DLNA is a widely known standard ?


People might not know it by name, but I would say yes. Anyone who has used the media share functionality on either the PS3 or X-Box 360 has used it.


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> Do people on this form think that DLNA is a widely known standard ? I have asked many people who know what a DVR is but have no idea what DLNA is or how to set up such a system, it took about 7 years for WiFi in homes to become commonplace, it will take at least that long for DLNA to become common, look what happen to Blue-tooth, and that been out for years. When it was made simple to use for cell phones users and became standard in cars and earpieces, it took off, but that was never the original idea for Blue-tooth


I use DLNA with Iomaga network storage and my Onkyo TX-NR-807 receiver. I have about 250 CDs (yes I own them all) ripped in a lossless format on the Iomaga storage and stream the music to my Onkyo receiver using DLNA works great and took all most no effort to setup. I also stream the music back to my PC in another room with another older Onkyo receiver attached to the PC.

So I think it would be great if TiVo allowed streaming from DLNA devices.

Thanks,


----------



## jwagner010

RichB said:


> or they will lose some but gain many new customers who have been waiting for an open platform. Better to become obsolete ?
> 
> - Rich


Could not have summed it up better myself.


----------



## bajabingo

i really really really want 1 hell i want 2 of them


----------



## BankZ

I was thinking about buying a new TiVo but then I heard about the Q. However, after reading this we do not even know if there will be a consumer version, right?


----------



## socrplyr

BankZ said:


> I was thinking about buying a new TiVo but then I heard about the Q. However, after reading this we do not even know if there will be a consumer version, right?


Tivo is trying to get a consumer version approved by the FCC (since it doesn't have analog). It is called the premiere elite and there is at least one thread about it and information on zatznotfunny, engadget, gizmolovers, etc.


----------



## Riverdome

Just to follow-up on the previous post and help answer the question - IF the elite comes to market the plan is for Tivo to have it available in time for the Christmas shopping season. IMO the FCC approval will come but I suppose anything is possible when Washington gets involved.


----------



## jcthorne

The Elite is CATV with cablecard ONLY. No OTA.


----------



## socrplyr

jcthorne said:


> The Elite is CATV with cablecard ONLY. No OTA.


So is the Q...


----------



## aaronwt

Has there been any extra info on the Preview as to how it will work with trick play etc. with it's tuner since it won't have a hard drive?


----------



## socrplyr

aaronwt said:


> Has there been any extra info on the Preview as to how it will work with trick play etc. with it's tuner since it won't have a hard drive?


I haven't seen any, but has anyone looked at the best buy tvs? I presume it would work similarly.


----------



## Fofer

No, the Best Buy TV's don't stream at all from TiVos. They have TiVo-_styled_ menus and some internet apps, but no functionality as DVR or streaming client.


----------



## Mfusick

wow- Cool news.

Thanks


----------



## jmpage2

jcthorne said:


> The Elite is CATV with cablecard ONLY. No OTA.


I know this is sacrilege to many here, but, f*ck OTA. I just want a box that can record more than two shows.

If the Q is available to regular schmucks, I am all over it... assuming that I can use one of the tuners to stream live TV over to the Preview box as well as watching my recorded shows on it.

Of course, knowing TiVo they will manage to screw this up.... they will want a $15.99 per month subscription for each tuner, or each Preview, or something similarly idiotic.


----------



## generaltso

jmpage2 said:


> , I am all over it... assuming that I can use one of the tuners to stream live TV over to the Preview box as well as watching my recorded shows on it.


You'll definitely be able to stream recorded shows, but probably not live TV. If you could, there would be no reason to include a cable card slot in the Preview.


----------



## jmpage2

Ah, I was not aware that it required a cable card, thanks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yep, the Preview has its own tuner, so no live TV streaming. Though that would have been kind of cool (and cheaper)... Oh well.

Most likely no OTA tuner in the Preview either, if it follows the lead of the Q/Elite as a cable-only product. (not that I mind personally.)


----------



## jcthorne

Well, if the Preview cannot stream live tv, and it cannot tune OTA then its pretty much useless as an extension to the one box. IE it will not function on its own at the secondary tv.

Its sad to see tivo go to such lengths to abandon the cord cutters. There is no real reason for it other than to 'buddy up' with the cablecos. It looks like a last ditch effort to save an almost dead company that has run out of options.


----------



## sbiller

jcthorne said:


> Well, if the Preview cannot stream live tv, and it cannot tune OTA then its pretty much useless as an extension to the one box. IE it will not function on its own at the secondary tv.
> 
> Its sad to see tivo go to such lengths to abandon the cord cutters. There is no real reason for it other than to 'buddy up' with the cablecos. It looks like a last ditch effort to save an almost dead company that has run out of options.


Preview streams live TV locally using its CableCARD. What is completely unclear at this point is what type of "trick-play", if any, the Preview will support. There was some unofficial discussion earlier that there may be some minimum buffering for live TV but I haven't seen any confirmation from TiVo.

As far as tuning OTA, the regular Premiere platform will still be supported. Clearly TiVo's growth and sustainability as a company is being compatible and friendly to the Cable industry. I could envision at some point a peripheral box that might support OTA and be compatible with the Premiere Platform.


----------



## rainwater

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, the Preview has its own tuner, so no live TV streaming. Though that would have been kind of cool (and cheaper)... Oh well.


The Preview is built for MSOs so it make since for it to have a tuner. For a whole home solution, you don't want the situation where a Preview can't watch live tv because the Q's tuner are in use.


----------



## pmiranda

sbiller said:


> What is completely unclear at this point is what type of "trick-play", if any, the Preview will support.


It'd be interesting if it had a SD card slot, or at least support for USB thumb drives... you could cram a few hours of HD one these days... way more if the cableco's did MPEG 4.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Preview streams live TV locally using its CableCARD. What is completely unclear at this point is what type of "trick-play", if any, the Preview will support. There was some unofficial discussion earlier that there may be some minimum buffering for live TV but I haven't seen any confirmation from TiVo.


TiVo confirmed no buffer, but trick play for me:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/more-tivo-premiere-q-details/#comment-111535

In reviewing my correspondence form June, though - it's not entirely clear if TiVo meant for both live TV and streamed recordings. In my mind, I was asking about both but I didn't explicitly spell that out. Of course, trick play implies a buffer but obviously they mean no user accessible scrub bar of any length of time.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> TiVo confirmed no buffer, but trick play for me:
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/more-tivo-premiere-q-details/#comment-111535
> 
> In reviewing my correspondence form June, though - it's not entirely clear if TiVo meant for both live TV and streamed recordings. In my mind, I was asking about both but I didn't explicitly spell that out. Of course, trick play implies a buffer but obviously they mean no user accessible scrub bar of any length of time.


I think its pretty clear from the TiVo Preview Slick Sheet that it supports trick play on recordings being streamed from the Premiere only.

http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/business/Generic_SS-2011_Preview.pdf



> Watch recordings on your DVR: With both a Premiere/Premiere Q and Preview box connected to your customers home network, they can easily access recordings stored on the Premiere, and stream them for viewing via the Preview. They can pause, rewind and fast forward streaming programs, and even delete recordings. The option to schedule recordings from the Preview is coming soon. The ability to pause and rewind TV is only available via the Premiere.


----------



## innocentfreak

Actually this makes sense. Checking Verizon's stb, they don't offer trick play functionality. Still it seems like it would have been nice and something that most of the industry doesn't offer.


I am starting to impatiently wait for cedia. I really think we will hear some pricing by then. Of course it also depends on when we might hear about the FCC's decision.


----------



## aaronwt

When is Cedia scheduled?


----------



## innocentfreak

Sept 7-10th and I believe CEDIA is where they unveiled the Series 3.


----------



## jcthorne

Well if it means the Premiere also gets streaming then I guess its a bit of good news. 

It really is unfortunate that the Q and the Preview are both going to abandon all OTA users and go for ONLY CATV subscribers. The new products really should have still supported both.

One additional thought, depending on pricing and subscription pricing models, this might be why they added the $9.95 OTA only Premiere sub. With Premiere boxes selling well below $100 and $10 sub pricing, it may very well be very near what a Preview would cost and offer more functionality. For OTA, this could be the alturnative model. Could. Depends on software and pricing.

Consider the combo of a Q and a Preview against that of 2 Premiere boxes. With streaming between the boxes enabled it brings them much closer together.


----------



## innocentfreak

jcthorne said:


> Well if it means the Premiere also gets streaming then I guess its a bit of good news.
> 
> It really is unfortunate that the Q and the Preview are both going to abandon all OTA users and go for ONLY CATV subscribers. The new products really should have still supported both.


I don't think the hardware could support it. Unfortunately BKDTV is mia and he would be the one that knows, but I don't think there is a tuner chip with 2 OTA and 2 Clearqam tuners on a single chip.

Edit: Fixed quote tag


----------



## wkearney99

jcthorne said:


> It really is unfortunate that the Q and the Preview are both going to abandon all OTA users and go for ONLY CATV subscribers. The new products really should have still supported both.


It's all about trying to make a profit. Tivo is not exactly thriving. There's probably a lot more money to made catering to the cable market. Certainly more than OTA. Also consider OTA customers may not be likely consumers of streaming services. Don't forget, keeping all those modem lines connected is an added expense they wouldn't have with IP connected boxes (a more likely situation with cable customers).

Yeah, it'd be great to have OTA, but I never use it.


----------



## rainwater

jcthorne said:


> W
> It really is unfortunate that the Q and the Preview are both going to abandon all OTA users and go for ONLY CATV subscribers. The new products really should have still supported both.


This is probably why TiVo is testing out OTA plans for the premiere at $10/month. They will probably position that box as the OTA and cable box if/when the Q is released and will probably refer to the Q as some type of cable super box.


----------



## jcthorne

wkearney99 said:


> It's all about trying to make a profit. Tivo is not exactly thriving. There's probably a lot more money to made catering to the cable market. Certainly more than OTA. Also consider OTA customers may not be likely consumers of streaming services. Don't forget, keeping all those modem lines connected is an added expense they wouldn't have with IP connected boxes (a more likely situation with cable customers).
> 
> Yeah, it'd be great to have OTA, but I never use it.


Why do you think a person that uses OTA is any less likely to have internet service? It may very well be most cable cutters have BETTER internet service subs than average CATV customers. There is no correlation between a catv sub and the likelyhood of having internet service. A Premiere without internet service would be pretty useless. They should have dropped the phone line connection on the boxes several generations ago. Or did they? I forget if my Premier has one or not. Dont have POTS anyway and fewer and fewer people do.

For us, upgraded internet service allowed us to drop catv. With the younger generation, this is becoming more and more common. Serial CATV is an industry ripe for major upheaval just like the telecoms industry did.


----------



## jcthorne

rainwater said:


> This is probably why TiVo is testing out OTA plans for the premiere at $10/month. They will probably position that box as the OTA and cable box if/when the Q is released and will probably refer to the Q as some type of cable super box.


Begining to make sense if they keep the feature set of the two branches up to date. Other than tuners, the hardware capabilities of the Q don't look much better than the Premiere.


----------



## Jeff_DML

jcthorne said:


> .. They should have dropped the phone line connection on the boxes several generations ago. Or did they? I forget if my Premier has one or not. Dont have POTS anyway and fewer and fewer people do.
> 
> ..


no phone line jack but I think there is a external adapter available


----------



## shwru980r

I think that a large user accessible buffer might violate the terms for copy protected programming.


----------



## MichaelK

shwru980r said:


> I think that a large user accessible buffer might violate the terms for copy protected programming.


even the most restricted content (such as PPV) is permitted a 90 minute buffer.
even if Tivo put enough memory in for 10 hrs (made up number) they could just read the flags liand then scrub the buffer at 90minutes (just like they do with every S3/S4 they have currently)


----------



## MichaelK

jcthorne said:


> Why do you think a person that uses OTA is any less likely to have internet service? It may very well be most cable cutters have BETTER internet service subs than average CATV customers. There is no correlation between a catv sub and the likelyhood of having internet service. A Premiere without internet service would be pretty useless. They should have dropped the phone line connection on the boxes several generations ago. Or did they? I forget if my Premier has one or not. Dont have POTS anyway and fewer and fewer people do.
> 
> For us, upgraded internet service allowed us to drop catv. With the younger generation, this is becoming more and more common. Serial CATV is an industry ripe for major upheaval just like the telecoms industry did.


I think you might be off a little here. You dont think the odds of an over the air household NOT having highspeed internet are higher than a cable tv served household not having high speed internet?

Cord cutters (who ditched cable but still stream off the net) are just a subset of OTA only households. Some are OTA only because they can't afford pay tv (and therefore are more likely not to be able to afford high speed internet). Some are OTA because they are too rural to get cable even if they wanted it (and since there is no cable they can't get high speed and since they are too rural for cable they may be too far from a CO for DSL either).

Also- there sure is a correlation of cable subs and likelihood of high speed internet internet service. X percent of cable subs get HSI. And that number rises everyday. There's a correlation and it is going up. Cable is losing more and more subs all the time yet they make more and more money all the time- why? Because triple play and bundling. More and more cable subs are also getting internet (and phone) from cable.

from wikipedia:


> As of September 30, 2010, Comcast serves a total of 22.9 million cable customers, 16.7 million high-speed Internet customers


assuming that's typical around 2/3rds of cable subs have HSI? Do you think that 2/3rds of OTA subs also have HSI? I think that's unlikely for the reasons above.

If I remember OTA is like 15% of the population while the majority of the remainder have cable TV. the Cable tv market is therefore like 3,4,or more times larger than OTA. Tivo just isn't making money so they have to prioritize and so the larger cabletv market is their focus at the moment.


----------



## atmuscarella

MichaelK said:


> I think you might be off a little here. You dont think the odds of an over the air household NOT having highspeed internet are higher than a cable tv served household not having high speed internet?


I know significantly more people with no pay TV service than those that don't have some form of high speed Internet. But most (all?) of the people I know with no pay TV service are not really low income they just don't find enough value in pay TV to have it, but they do find value in high speed Internet. That is where I am, $50+/- a month for pay TV would matter little in my budget I just don't think it's worth it. Maybe low income people without pay TV are more likely not to have high speed Internet - but I have no data to know one way or the other.

Thanks,


----------



## MichaelK

atmuscarella said:


> I know significantly more people with no pay TV service than those that don't have some form of high speed Internet. But most (all?) of the people I know with no pay TV service are not really low income they just don't find enough value in pay TV to have it, but they do find value in high speed Internet. That is where I am, $50+/- a month for pay TV would matter little in my budget I just don't think it's worth it. Maybe low income people without pay TV are more likely not to have high speed Internet - but I have no data to know one way or the other.
> 
> Thanks,


I'd call those people you describe as "cord cutters"- people that decided pay tv isn't worth the cost.

In my mind:
1) close to 100% of "cord cutters" would have HSI. (although you remind me that some dont see the value in pay TV might also not see value in internet.) 
2) something approaching 0% of rural customers who couldn't get cable have HSI good enough to stream reasonably- hughes.net (or whatever they call it now) isn't gonna cut it, Wireless broadband from a phone company if it exists likely has caps that make it unusable, and DSL in such a spread out area just isn't going to be all that fast. There might be small pockets of fixed wireless or DSL extenders or stuff like that but if you live in the middle of nowhere then probably not many options.
3) poor folks who have decided they dont want/have enough to spend their limited resources on cable tv are more likely than not to decide that HSI is somethign to spend their money on.

so comes down to how those 3 groups break down into the ~15% without pay tv. I dont really know how that pans out. Anyone know?


----------



## jcthorne

The numbers of cable subscribers is dropping. Also your assumption that 2/3 of catv owner have HSI is not correct. Many of those HSI customer do not have CATV subs. ALso CATV companies do not have all the HSI customers. ATT and Verizon have one or two....

I did not mean that cord cutters are mainstream, but the numbers are growing and its not po folk. Its folks that do not see the value in what CATV offers. And yes, I think you will find well over 90% of tivo's subs that are OTA have HSI.


----------



## daveak

OTA here with HSI - 15meg. I need that for my 'wired' entertainment. Why pay the cable guy for the trouble and 100 channels I do not watch? I watch what I want when I want and usually without commercials - the ones on OTA I simply skip. Why anyone would pay $50 to $150 a month for the privilege of programming on someone else's schedule (most with gobs of awful commercials you have to take time to skip) is beyond me. Though this is what works for me.


----------



## aaronwt

daveak said:


> OTA here with HSI - 15meg. I need that for my 'wired' entertainment. Why pay the cable guy for the trouble and 100 channels I do not watch? I watch what I want when I want and usually without commercials - the ones on OTA I simply skip. Why anyone would pay $50 to $150 a month for the privilege of programming on someone else's schedule (most with gobs of awful commercials you have to take time to skip) is beyond me. Though this is what works for me.


Well for me, even if I wanted to cut the Cable TV cord, that would mean my internet service would go up by $75. So it's basically worth it for me to keep cableTV with the discounts I get from bundling. Although on top of that I still have the cable card fee of $20 for five cable cards. Hopefully the Premiere Q(or is it Elite?) will help me reduce that by at least one or possibly two.


----------



## mattack

daveak said:


> OTA here with HSI - 15meg. I need that for my 'wired' entertainment. Why pay the cable guy for the trouble and 100 channels I do not watch? I watch what I want when I want and usually without commercials - the ones on OTA I simply skip. Why anyone would pay $50 to $150 a month for the privilege of programming on someone else's schedule (most with gobs of awful commercials you have to take time to skip) is beyond me. Though this is what works for me.


How are you *legally* watching "what you want when you want"?

I do that with Tivo.. and yes I have to "take time to skip", but that's a very very small amount of time. Yes, if something like Hulu or Netflix had *ALL CURRENT* programming, with a decent longevity (so I knew I could watch everything I wanted at any time), I would do without DVRs and cable service... Heck, I would likely even pay MORE than for cable, if it were commercial free. But not $1/episode of TV shows.


----------



## aaronwt

mattack said:


> How are you *legally* watching "what you want when you want"?
> 
> I do that with Tivo.. and yes I have to "take time to skip", but that's a very very small amount of time. Yes, if something like Hulu or Netflix had *ALL CURRENT* programming, with a decent longevity (so I knew I could watch everything I wanted at any time), I would do without DVRs and cable service... Heck, I would likely even pay MORE than for cable, if it were commercial free. But not $1/episode of TV shows.


$1 an episode is very cheap. I would jump on $1 an episode. I usually have to pay $2.99 an episode for the TV content I buy from Amazon so I can watch it in HD.


----------



## daveak

mattack said:


> How are you *legally* watching "what you want when you want"?
> 
> I do that with Tivo.. and yes I have to "take time to skip", but that's a very very small amount of time. Yes, if something like Hulu or Netflix had *ALL CURRENT* programming, with a decent longevity (so I knew I could watch everything I wanted at any time), I would do without DVRs and cable service... Heck, I would likely even pay MORE than for cable, if it were commercial free. But not $1/episode of TV shows.


The $1000 I save every year buys a good amount of programming and/or HT upgrades. Sometimes I have to wait for the Blu-ray or Download (Legal). Worth it in my book. Though if you are a serious sports person or have to have the latest cable programming right away, this will not work for you. The NFL is my sport of choice, and broadcast TV has enough games I want to watch to keep me busy.


----------



## mattack

aaronwt said:


> $1 an episode is very cheap. I would jump on $1 an episode. I usually have to pay $2.99 an episode for the TV content I buy from Amazon so I can watch it in HD.


(BTW, apparently iTunes no longer rents TV shows at $1/episode, so I guess that option is no longer available.)

I guess you don't watch much TV. I admittedly watch a lot (hey, I'm no a TiVo forum, what do you expect?).. but I'd pay even more than I pay for cable if I had to pay for every single TV show individually. Think even things like the news (yeah, I'm one of the people who actually "still" watches the news every day.. well I actually listen to the podcast usually, and that is free, but I make a "backup" recording since sometimes the podcast isn't updated and/or is missing a segment).. or Jeopardy.. or other daily shows. So it's not only 1/week kind of TV shows.


----------



## dhyayi

aaronwt said:


> $1 an episode is very cheap. I would jump on $1 an episode. I usually have to pay $2.99 an episode for the TV content I buy from Amazon so I can watch it in HD.


Yep, that's right....I usually spend my time to buy 3 episodes....


----------



## aaronwt

mattack said:


> (BTW, apparently iTunes no longer rents TV shows at $1/episode, so I guess that option is no longer available.)
> 
> I guess you don't watch much TV. I admittedly watch a lot (hey, I'm no a TiVo forum, what do you expect?).. but I'd pay even more than I pay for cable if I had to pay for every single TV show individually. Think even things like the news (yeah, I'm one of the people who actually "still" watches the news every day.. well I actually listen to the podcast usually, and that is free, but I make a "backup" recording since sometimes the podcast isn't updated and/or is missing a segment).. or Jeopardy.. or other daily shows. So it's not only 1/week kind of TV shows.


I watch CNN-HD daily, but that is from my TiVos. I used to record an average of 40 to 50 hours of HDTV a week from my TiVos. But I don't have time to watch most of it. I just like to have a wide variety of things available to choose from.
But I've found lately I'm watching more content from online sources than from my TiVo recordings since there is alot more available in HD now than there used to be.


----------



## sbiller

https://www.fcc.gov/document/media-bureau-grants-tivos-waiver-request

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516

Before the

Federal Communications Commission

Washington, D.C. 20554
In the Matter of
)
)
)
TiVo, Inc.
)
MB Docket No. 11-105
)
Request for Waiver of Sections 15.118(b),
)
15.123(b)(1), and 15.123(c) of the Commission's
)
Rules
)
)

MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER

Adopted: September 7, 2011

Released: September 7, 2011
By the Chief, Media Bureau:

I.

INTRODUCTION
1.
In this Order, we grant, to the extent set forth herein, TiVo, Inc.'s ("TiVo" or
"Petitioner") unopposed1 request for waiver of the Federal Communications Commission's
("Commission") requirements that electronics equipment marketed as "digital cable ready" include tuners
that are capable of tuning over-the-air broadcast channels and analog cable channels for its new TiVo
Premiere Elite digital video recorder ("DVR"). This device permits simultaneous viewing and recording
of up to four digital cable channels and has a capacity of up to 300 hours of high definition
programming.2 We conclude that the waiver is in the public interest because it will reduce the Premiere
Elite's cost and power consumption and provide consumers a new retail set-top box option that will
compete with devices leased by cable operators. In addition, we condition this waiver on TiVo's
commitment to inform consumers and retailers about the capabilities and limitations of this digital device.

II.

BACKGROUND
2. Congress has twice directed the Commission to adopt regulations to the development of a
retail market for cable-ready devices. As part of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and

1 Nine commenters (Samuel Biller, Glenn Connery, The Consumer Electronics Association ("CEA"), MegaZone,
Nagravision, The National Cable and Telecommunications Association ("NCTA"), Michael D. Scott, David Slade,
and Transparent Video Systems), filed comments in support of TiVo's request.
2 See 47 C.F.R. 15.118(b) ("Cable ready consumer electronics equipment shall be capable of receiving all NTSC
or similar video channels"); 47 C.F.R. 15.123(b)(1) (prohibiting the sale or marketing of electronics devices as
"digital cable ready" or otherwise depicting the device as compatible with digital cable service if it does not tune
NTSC analog channels transmitted in-the-clear); 47 C.F.R. 15.123(c) (requiring electronics devices marketed or
sold as "digital cable ready" or otherwise depicted as compatible with digital cable service to comply with standards
that require an analog tuner).

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
Competition Act of 1992, Congress added Section 624A to the Communications Act of 1934, as amended
("Communications Act"),3 and as part of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, Congress added Section
629 to the Communications Act.4 Section 624A directs the Commission to adopt regulations to assure
compatibility between consumer electronics devices and cable systems to make consumers more likely to
purchase, and electronics equipment manufacturers more likely to offer for sale, innovative cable-ready
devices.5 Section 629 requires the Commission to consult with industry standard-setting organizations
and adopt regulations to assure the commercial availability of set-top boxes and other equipment used to
access multichannel video programming services.6
3. In May 1994, pursuant to the directive of Section 624A, the Commission adopted rules to
assure compatibility between consumer electronics devices and cable service.7 As part of those rules, the
Commission adopted a requirement that "cable ready" receivers be able to tune analog cable channels up
to channel 125.8 The Commission explained that this requirement was practical and inexpensive, as cable
channel 125 corresponded with the highest UHF broadcast channel that TVs are required to tune.9 This
rule, codified at Section 15.118(b) of our rules, ensures that devices marketed as "cable ready" are able to
tune the overwhelming majority of cable channels transmitted in analog.
4. In October 2003, the Commission adopted rules to implement Section 629, which directs the
Commission to adopt regulations to assure the commercial availability of set-top boxes and other
equipment used to access multichannel video programming services. Among other things, the rules
require devices marketed as "digital cable ready" to meet certain standards to ensure that they are
compatible with cable systems nationwide.10 TiVo seeks waiver of two specific requirements adopted in
the Digital Plug and Play Order. First, the Commission's rules require manufacturers to test "digital
cable ready" devices for compliance with a standard that specifies that the device shall include an analog

3 47 U.S.C. 544a.
4 47 U.S.C. 549(a).
5 47 U.S.C. 544a.
6 47 U.S.C. 549(a).
7 Implementation of Section 17 of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and Competition Act of 1992
Compatibility between Cable Systems and Consumer Electronics Equipment, 9 FCC Rcd 1981 (1994) ("Analog
Plug and Play Order"). The term "plug and play" refers to a device's ability to plug into a cable system and receive
cable programming without a cable-operator provided set-top box.
8 Id. at 1995-7, 78-90. ("[W]e will require `cable ready' TV receivers and VCRs to tune to cable channels
specified by the EIA IS132 standard up to a minimum frequency range of 806 MHz."). 806MHz corresponds to
channel 125 on cable systems under the EIA IS-132 standard. See Electronic Industry Association's "Standard
Cable Television Channel Identification Plan, IS132, May 1994" (EIA IS132).
9 Analog Plug and Play Order, 9 FCC Rcd at 1996, 89 ("Inasmuch as TV receivers normally incorporate a single
tuner for both cable and broadcast channels and the appropriate upper range for cable is essentially the same as the
existing broadcast tuning requirement, we believe it would be appropriate to adopt the minimum tuning range for
broadcast channels as the upper cable channel tuning requirement for `cable ready' equipment."). This requirement
is not related to the "All Channel Receiver Act," 47 U.S.C. 303(s), and this Order does not address issues
associated with Section 303(s) of the Communications Act.
10 Implementation of Section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996: Commercial Availability of Navigation
Devices; Compatibility Between Cable Systems and Consumer Electronics Equipment, 18 FCC Rcd 20885 (2003)
("Digital Plug and Play Order"). See 47 C.F.R. 15.123(b)(1), 15.123(c).
2

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
RF tuner to access analog cable channels.11 Second, the Commission's rules require digital cable ready
devices to include over-the-air tuners.12 The Commission based this rule on consumer expectations: "In
the analog environment, the public has come to understand that television receivers labeled or marketed
as `cable ready' universally include the capability of receiving over-the-air broadcast service. We believe
it would be inconsistent with consumer expectations and thus affirmatively misleading for digital cable
ready receivers not to include digital over-the-air reception capability."13
5.
On June 7, 2011, TiVo filed a request for waiver of the Commission's tuner requirements
with respect to its TiVo Premiere Elite DVR, pursuant to Section 629(c) of the Communications Act and
Sections 1.3, 76.7, and 76.1207 of the Commission's rules.14 TiVo explained that it "recently developed
the Premiere Elite, which is an all-digital, CableCard-enabled DVR designed specifically for use in all-
digital cable systems."15 Further, TiVo explained that it "is already taking orders for a version of the
Premier Elite from cable operators."16 TiVo states that it can sell the product to cable operators for lease
to subscribers; however, because the Premiere Elite does not have the capability to receive and tune any
analog cable channels or over-the-air signals, Sections 15.118(b), 15.123(b)(1), and 15.123(c) prevent
TiVo from testing and marketing the Premiere Elite as a digital cable ready product for sale at retail.17
TiVo asserts that waiver will serve the public interest in three ways: First, TiVo argues that waiver will
advance Section 629's goal of a competitive retail market for navigation devices.18 Second, TiVo asserts
that waiver will promote consumer adoption of digital cable service.19 Finally, TiVo states that waiver
will benefit consumers by lowering the Premiere Elite's price, reducing its power consumption, reducing
its size, and increasing its storage capacity.20 To counteract the consumer confusion that our rules are
intended to prevent, TiVo has voluntarily committed to labeling, marketing and retailer education
programs.21 The education program will inform customers and retailers that the Premiere Elite can only
tune digital cable signals and explains that this limitation means that consumers cannot use the Premiere
Elite to receive any over-the-air television or analog cable television.

11 See 47 C.F.R. 15.123(c) (referencing UniDirPICSI01030903: "Uni-Directional Receiving Device:
Conformance Checklist: PICS Proforma," September 3, 2003 and MUDCPPICSI04080225, "Uni-Directional
Cable Product Supporting MCard: Multiple Profiles; Conformance Checklist: PICS," February 25, 2008).
12 47 C.F.R. 15.123(b)(1).
13 Digital Plug and Play Order, 18 FCC Rcd at 20901, 34.
14 TiVo Inc.'s Petition for Waiver of Section 15.118(b), 15.123(b)(1), and 15.123(c) of the Commission's Rules, MB
Docket No. 11-105 (filed June 7, 2011) ("Waiver Request").
15 Id. at 2.
16 Id. at 2-3. Devices that cable operators deploy directly to their subscribers are not subject to the requirements of
Section 15.118(b), 15.123(b)(1), and 15.123(c), as cable operators are familiar with the specific technical
requirements for compatibility within each of their systems and subscribers do not expect those devices to receive
over-the-air broadcast service.
17 Id. at 3.
18 Id. at 5.
19 Id. at 5-7.
20 Id. at 7-8.
21 Id. at 8-10; Letter from Gary S. Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal
Communications Commission, MB Docket No. 11-105 (filed August 10, 2011); Letter from Gary S. Lutzker,
Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications Commission, MB Docket No. 11-
105 (filed August 15, 2011).
3

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
6.
Nine commenters filed in support of TiVo's request. Several consumers encourage the
Commission to grant TiVo's request, asserting that waiver would lower equipment costs and increase
retail set-top box competition.22 Nagravision and Transparent Video Systems also favor the grant of
TiVo's request and argue that the Commission should extend the waiver to all similar products, asserting
that doing so would promote set-top box competition.23 They further contend that in all-digital cable
systems, analog tuners are entirely superfluous and merely add cost, size, complexity, and power
consumption without providing any functionality to consumers.24 NCTA and CEA both support TiVo's
request as well. NCTA's support stems from its assertion that the Commission's "plug and play"
compatibility rules hinder innovation, and that "coordination between service providers and device
manufacturers" is a preferable way to ensure device compatibility.25 CEA, on the other hand, generally
supports rules that promote national standards to achieve device compatibility, but believes that waiver in
this instance will further the market for devices that can access cable services.26 Both NCTA and CEA
emphasize the importance of the Commission's cable ready labeling regime: "The Commission's rules
concerning [digital cable ready] specifications and labeling serve the important function of informing
consumers and protecting their investments in video devices."27 Accordingly, NCTA encourages the
Commission to condition the waiver upon TiVo educating consumers about the limits of the Premiere
Elite's capabilities.28 In reply comments and an ex parte letter, TiVo affirmed its voluntary commitment
to its consumer education campaign, and modified its education materials slightly in response to NCTA's
comments.29

III.

DISCUSSION
7.
We find good cause to grant TiVo's waiver request subject to the conditions described
below.30 As discussed above, the Commission adopted Sections 15.118(b), 15.123(b)(1) and 15.123(c) to
achieve two purposes: (1) to establish standards for compatibility between retail electronics equipment
and cable services, and (2) to prevent consumer confusion. In this regard, we note that TiVo has worked
with the cable industry to ensure that the Premiere Elite will work on all-digital cable systems, which
lessens the adverse impact on compatibility.31 Furthermore, by voluntarily committing to launch a

22 Michael D. Scott Comments at 1; Samuel Biller Comments at 1-2; Glenn Connery Comments at 1; MegaZone
Comments at 1; David Slade Comments at 1.
23 Nagravision Comments at 2; Transparent Video Systems Comments at 6.
24 Nagravision Comments at 3; Transparent Video Systems Comments at 2-4.
25 NCTA Comments at 2.
26 CEA Comments at 1.
27 CEA Comments at 2; see also NCTA Comments at 3 ("TiVo's request warrants some precautions because the
device it seeks to introduce would not have full `plug and play' functionality nor be portable across all cable
systems.").
28 NCTA Comments at 2-3.
29 TiVo Reply at 3-4; Letter from Gary S. Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal
Communications Commission, MB Docket No. 11-105 (filed August 15, 2011).
30 Section 1.3 of the Commission's rules states that "[t]he provisions of this chapter may be suspended, revoked,
amended, or waived for good cause shown, in whole or in part, at any time by the Commission, subject to the
provisions of the Administrative Procedure Act and the provisions of this chapter. Any provision of the rules may
be waived by the Commission on its own motion or on petition if good cause therefor is shown." 47 C.F.R. 1.3.
31 Waiver Request at 2-3 ("TiVo already is taking orders for a version of the Premiere Elite from cable operators for
deployment later this year to customers served by digital cable systems."); NCTA Comments at 2 ("The TiVo
4

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
campaign to educate consumers about the capabilities and limitations of the Premiere Elite,32 TiVo has
offered measures to reduce the possibility of consumer confusion. As we explain more fully below, the
benefits that will result from waiver, when viewed in light of TiVo's education and marketing
commitments, establish that deviation from the general rules will serve the public interest better than strict
adherence to them.33
8.
We conclude that TiVo has demonstrated good cause for a waiver. 34 We find that waiver
of the Commission's rules in this instance should reduce the cost of the Premiere Elite by $80 to $100,
reduce its power consumption, and introduce a new, retail CableCARD device option to consumers.35
Thus, our grant of this waiver should result in tangible consumer benefits. Commenters unanimously
agree with TiVo that the Premier Elite is an "innovative product,"36 and TiVo touts the device's recording
capacity of 300 hours of high definition programming and ability to permit viewing and recording of up
to four channels simultaneously.37 In light of the fact that the TiVo Premiere Elite device is specifically
intended for operation with all-digital cable systems that do not provide any analog video programming
services and is intended for distribution by both cable systems and retailers, this waiver extends only to
that specific set-top box, and not to all service providers and set-top cable terminal device products and
for all providers of services and products. Any device manufacturer that seeks to offer at retail a device
similar to the Premiere Elite must petition for, and receive, a waiver from the Commission based on the
specific facts and circumstances surrounding its proposed retail offering.
9.
In granting this waiver, however, we recognize NCTA's point that although the cable
industry has significantly increased the penetration of its digital services since the Commission adopted
the Digital Plug and Play Order in 2003, many cable systems "continue to carry substantial numbers of
channels only in analog," and "even on systems that simulcast all channels in digital, some customers
may subscribe only to analog service."38 Accordingly, we conclude that as a condition of this waiver
TiVo must engage in the consumer education program which it voluntarily proposed. This condition will

petition was crafted after consultation with the cable industry on how best to bring an innovative product to market
when Commission rules, written for a different time, forbid it.").
32 Specifically, TiVo will inform consumers about the Premiere Elite's inability to receive and tune analog and
digital over-the-air signals and analog cable signals.
33 Northeast Cellular Tel. Co. v. FCC, 897 F.2d 1164, 1166 (D.C. Cir. 1990) ("[W]aiver is appropriate only if
special circumstances warrant a deviation from the general rule and such deviation will serve the public interest.").
34 While we find good cause to grant TiVo's waiver pursuant to Section 1.3 of the Commission's rules, we do not
grant TiVo's request for waiver pursuant to Section 629(c) of the Communications Act of Section 76.1207 of the
Commission's rules. Section 15.118(b) owes its origins to Section 624A of the Communications Act and was not
adopted pursuant to Section 629 of the Communications Act; therefore waiver of Section 15.118(b) pursuant to
Section 629(c) is inappropriate. Furthermore, waiver is not necessary to assist in the introduction or development of
the Premiere Elite. 47 U.S.C. 549(c); Waiver Request at 3 ("TiVo already is taking orders for a version of the
Premiere Elite from cable operators for deployment later this year."); Comcast Corporation's Request for Waiver of
Section 76.1204(a)(1) of the Commission's Rules; Implementation of Section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of
1996: Commercial Availability of Navigation Devices, 22 FCC Rcd 17113, 17118, 9 (2007), petition for review
denied, Comcast Corp. v. FCC, 526 F.3d 763 (D.C. Cir. 2008).
35 Waiver Request at 3-4
36 NCTA Comments at 2; CEA Comments at 1.
37 Waiver Request at 3.
38 NCTA Comments at 2-3.
5

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
ensure that the benefits of waiver of the tuner rules, namely, increased retail device competition and
reduced cost and power consumption, outweigh the counteracting burden on consumer expectations.
10.
The rules the Commission adopted in the Analog Plug and Play Order in 1994 reflect the
consumer expectation that cable-ready devices will be able to tune those analog channels. Furthermore,
as the Commission stated in the Digital Plug and Play Order, "the public has come to understand that
television receivers labeled or marketed as `cable ready' universally include the capability of receiving
over-the-air broadcast service."39 To temper these expectations, a comprehensive consumer education
program is necessary to ensure that consumers are not misled and that only consumers who subscribe to
all-digital cable service, or who have adequate knowledge and notice of the device's inherent limitations,
purchase the Premiere Elite. TiVo has voluntarily agreed to such an education program. We believe that
the in-store documents, product packaging notices, and retailer training materials that TiVo presented to
Commission staff,40 as modified by TiVo's August 15, 2011 ex parte letter,41 will adequately ensure that
consumers and retail sales staff have sufficient understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the
Premiere Elite.42 Accordingly, this waiver of Sections 15.118(b), 15.123(b)(1) and 15.123(c) of our rules
is expressly conditioned on TiVo's continuing to market the Premiere Elite and educate consumers in a
manner consistent with its filings for as long as it makes the Premiere Elite available at retail.43
11.
We also find good cause to grant TiVo a partial waiver, sua sponte, of Section 15.123(d)
of our rules. Section 15.123(d) requires post-sale material for "digital cable ready" devices to include
language that states that the device is capable of "receiving analog basic . . . programming by direct
connection to a cable system providing such programming."44 In lieu of that notice, and as a condition of
waiver, TiVo shall replace the analog portion of the post-sale notice with the post-sale material that TiVo
has voluntarily agreed to include, which is contained in the Appendix to this Order. Section 15.123(d) of
our rules also requires notification that advanced and interactive digital cable services, such as video-on-
demand, may not be available on retail devices. We do not waive the requirement that TiVo include that
information in post-sale material, and therefore TiVo must include the following notice: "Certain
advanced and interactive digital cable services such as video-on-demand, a cable operator's enhanced

39 Digital Plug and Play Order, 18 FCC Rcd at 20901, 34.
40 Letter from Gary S. Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications
Commission, MB Docket No. 11-105 (filed August 10, 2011).
41 Letter from Gary S. Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications
Commission, MB Docket No. 11-105 (filed August 15, 2011).
42 In reaching our conclusions today, we rely on the fact that TiVo still intends to manufacture and sell set-top boxes
that are compatible with analog cable service and over-the-air television. Waiver Request at 9 ("For customers that
continue to receive analog cable service, TiVo's other models will remain available, and TiVo's sales
representatives will be trained to recommend TiVo's dual analog/digital devices to those consumers."). We will
continue to monitor marketplace developments, and we reserve the right to revisit this issue and determine that
waiver is no longer in the public interest if we discover that analog cable service customers and over-the-air viewers
no longer have retail options.
43 Waiver Request at 9; Letter from Gary S. Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal
Communications Commission, MB Docket No. 11-105 (filed August 10, 2011) as modified by Letter from Gary S.
Lutzker, Counsel, TiVo, Inc. to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications Commission, MB Docket
No. 11-105 (filed August 15, 2011). Per NCTA's request, we clarify that neither this waiver nor the availability of
digital-only devices at retail creates "any requirement or expectation for cable operators who carry analog services
to change their networks, services, or prices to meet the digital-only receiver constraints of this device." NCTA
Comments at 3.
44 47 C.F.R. 15.123(d).
6

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516
program guide and data-enhanced television services may require the use of a set-top box. For more
information call your local cable operator."45 This will assure that consumers are not confused about the
capabilities of the Premiere Elite. TiVo's adherence to this post-sale messaging is also a condition of this
waiver.

IV.

ORDERING CLAUSES
12.
Accordingly,

IT IS ORDERED
that, pursuant to Section 1.3 of the Commission's rules,
47 C.F.R. 1.3, the request for waiver filed by TiVo, Inc.,

IS GRANTED
with respect to the TiVo
Premiere Elite set-top box as set forth and conditioned above.
13.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED
that, pursuant to Section 1.3 of the Commission's rules,
47 C.F.R. 1.3, waiver of Section 15.123(d), 47 C.F.R. 15.123(d) of the Commission's rules

IS
GRANTED IN PART
to TiVo, Inc. with respect to the TiVo Premiere Elite set-top box, as set forth and
conditioned above.
14.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED
that, pursuant to Section 629(c) of the Communications
Act, 47 U.S.C. 549(c), and Section 76.1207 of the Commission's rules, 47 C.F.R. 76.1207 the request
for waiver filed by TiVo, Inc.,

IS DENIED
.
15.
This action is taken pursuant to authority delegated by Section 0.283 of the
Commission's rules, 47 C.F.R. 0.283.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
William T. Lake
Chief, Media Bureau

45 Id.
7

Federal Communications Commission

DA 11-1516

APPENDIX
TiVo's Consumer Education Labeling and Marketing Documentation
(1) In-Store Product Information: The Premiere Elite "Data Sheet" shall prominently notify potential
customers that it is "Compatible with digital cable and Verizon FiOs" and that customers will need
a "Digital Cable TV or Verizon FiOs connection (does not support satellite, AT&T U-verse or
antenna)." The Data Sheet shall also include the following detailed notice:
CableCARDTM Decoder. A CableCARD decoder is required for your TiVo Premiere Elite DVR
to receive cable programming. The TiVo Premiere Elite is designed for use only with digital
cable systems. It does not receive analog programming, including over-the-air, and will not work
with an over-the-air antenna. Most of the largest cable providers have "digital simulcast," which
means they rebroadcast all their analog channel programming on digital channels as well. This
means that all or most of the programs available on analog channels are also available on digital
channels when a CableCARD is inserted. Therefore, if your provider has "digital simulcast" and
rebroadcasts all of its programming in digital you will not miss any of your cable channel
programming with a TiVo Premiere Elite. If you are unsure whether your cable operator's service
provides all-digital or digital simulcast of all analog programming, please contact your provider.
If you plan to relocate to a new area or change your video service provider, please contact your
new provider to determine whether it offers all-digital or digital simulcast service for all its
analog programming.
(2) The information booklet included with all Premiere Elite units shall include a notification essentially
identical to the notice provided on the in-store "Data Sheet."
(3) Quick Start Guide -- The Premiere Elite packaging shall include an installation guide that includes
the following prominent notice:
The TiVo Premiere Elite is intended for use with digital cable systems only and does not work
with external cable boxes, analog cable, or over-the-air antennas. A CableCARD decoder is
required to receive any cable programming. To receive digital cable channels, and to watch and
record multiple channels at the same time, you need one Multi-Stream CableCARD decoder (M-
Card) from your cable company.
8


----------



## MichaelK

They needed every minute of 90 days to figure that out?


----------



## jrtroo

You must never deal with a regulating body.


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> They needed every minute of 90 days to figure that out?


I don't think it is that, but more that it is a set limit. In TiVo's original filing they mentioned the 90 day expedited decision and made no mention of prior to the 90 days.

From what we have seen with the FCC it usually goes in 3 stages so maybe they have a minimum of 30 days per stage.

Stage 1 - Original Filing and comments. 
Stage 2 - Replies to comments
Stage 3 - Final replies to comments and replies.


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## jwagner010

Any word on the Preview? Are we likely to see a retail version and if so by when?


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## innocentfreak

A couple of us are guessing if we see the Preview at retail it won't be until the Elite is out and streaming is working 100%. The Preview is useless without streaming, and technically streaming hasn't been officially announced by TiVo. 

They way also be waiting to see how well the Elite does, and there is also the pricing issue of the Preview. How do you price it?


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## slowbiscuit

Well technically it's not 'useless' without streaming, because it does have a Cablecard tuner and therefore can be used as an HD STB. But I agree, there's not much point to releasing it if it can't stream from real Tivos.

I really hope they don't try to add on a monthly charge for the Previews.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The Preview (as we know it) will also require an FCC waiver, which they haven't yet applied for. It's a mystery why. They may not have wanted to press their luck by asking for a waiver at the same time as the Elite. Maybe they had not yet decided on the retail viability. Maybe they just wanted to prioritize and focus on the Elite first to give the company and customers absolute focus. Who knows.

It should be able to stream from any Premiere, so I don't think they're waiting to finish the streaming software or to see how the Elite does just to file for the waiver.

But if they do plan to bring it to market, we'll know about it once they file the FCC petition.


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## MichaelK

jrtroo said:


> You must never deal with a regulating body.


sadly i deal with EPA and the state environmental department all the time. You are right- they are more pathetic....


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## nrc

When TiVo discussed the Preview in their results conference call it was purely as a cable box aimed at MSOs. I don't think they see a good return on offering it at retail given that they can't make a good case for subscription fees on such a device.


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## Fofer

nrc said:


> they can't make a good case for subscription fees on such a device.


Of course they can't. So maybe they should produce and price it appropriately?



Oh, TiVo, how you continue to disappoint. :down:


----------



## innocentfreak

nrc said:


> When TiVo discussed the Preview in their results conference call it was purely as a cable box aimed at MSOs. I don't think they see a good return on offering it at retail given that they can't make a good case for subscription fees on such a device.





Fofer said:


> Of course they can't. So maybe they should produce and price it appropriately?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, TiVo, how you continue to disappoint. :down:


So what does TiVo pay Tribune for guide data? Is it based off tuners or off channels or both? Is it per household or per device?

Without knowing this how can you claim TiVo can't justify a subscription fee?

I also don't understand how you can be disappointed about a box which hasn't been announced for retail or even priced.

They could easily price the Preview without a subscription fee, but it would have to be the hardware plus 3 years or so of guide data depending on what they assume the lifetime of the box to be.


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## jfh3

nrc said:


> When TiVo discussed the Preview in their results conference call it was purely as a cable box aimed at MSOs. I don't think they see a good return on offering it at retail given that they can't make a good case for subscription fees on such a device.


Agreed. But why not price it at $99 like Boxee or AppleTV, maybe a bit more if it does have a tuner.


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## innocentfreak

jfh3 said:


> Agreed. But why not price it at $99 like Boxee or AppleTV, maybe a bit more if it does have a tuner.


Those don't have the cost of the Cable Labs hardware and certification which is supposed to be pretty pricey per device.


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## Fofer

Okay, so price it at $229. Heck, $249.


They won't, though. They'll price it at $299 plus $12.95/month or something stupid like that. And since they can't make a good case for that obscene pricing, they won't offer it direct to consumers at all.


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## shwru980r

I think they would have to price the Elite preview combination so that it's close to the cost of owning multiple premieres. Maybe have a threshold of 2 - 3 previews before it starts getting cheaper to own the elite premiere combination.


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## Darr247

Well, I guess I'll go ahead and get the discounted lifetime sub on the S3-THX I got on ebay for $95, since there apparently won't be a 4-tuner OTA Tivo in the foreseeable future. I can't figure out why the networks invariably schedule 3 or 4 shows I want to watch on the same night at the same time. Then, no doubt, one of them will be cancelled since it doesn't get the ratings it would in another time slot.

With one of the tuners seemingly going bad in my XL (tuner1 is starting to take up to a minute to lock onto the signals - some from towers less than 5 miles away - whenever it changes channels; tuner2 locks on and starts displaying programming immediately), I'll need a backup while its warranty replacement's delivered, anyway.

Hmmm... that might be a good reason NOT to want all 4 tuners in the same box, too.


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## innocentfreak

Fofer said:


> Okay, so price it at $229. Heck, $249.
> 
> They won't, though. They'll price it at $299 plus $12.95/month or something stupid like that. And since they can't make a good case for that obscene pricing, they won't offer it direct to consumers at all.


I could see them looking at pricing it $299, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense at that price point. The Premiere is $99 so it presents a problem when you try to market an extender for more than that. I realize there is the subscription price, but how do you justify the $299 vs $99 price when they are on the shelf next to each other to the average consumer.

Maybe it will be something like $299 with lifetime or $99 with $5 a month subscription.


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## RichB

innocentfreak said:


> I could see them looking at pricing it $299, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense at that price point. The Premiere is $99 so it presents a problem when you try to market an extender for more than that. I realize their is the subscription price, but how do you justify the $299 vs $99 price when they are on the shelf next to each other to the average consumer.
> 
> Maybe it will be something like $299 with lifetime or $99 with $5 a month subscription.


That would probably be too high.
After all, this uses very little TiVo *services*.
There is a market for the set-top-box that you can buy.
There could be ROI for $299 for the box, but a fee from TiVo plus a CC fee is too much. The customer can only take so much tucking too.

- Rich


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## Fofer

innocentfreak said:


> The Premiere is $99


Correction: It is $99, _plus a required (not insignificant) monthly subscription fee._

So price the Preview (which really could use a different name, "Preview" is too similar to "Premiere") at $199, or maybe $249 -- no monthly fees -- and you've got yourself a winner.

Or price it at $49, with $5/monthly. I'd go for that.


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## innocentfreak

RichB said:


> That would probably be too high.
> After all, this uses very little TiVo *services*.
> There is a market for the set-top-box that you can buy.
> There could be ROI for $299 for the box, but a fee from TiVo plus a CC fee is too much. The customer can only take so much tucking too.
> 
> - Rich


Right which is why my gut says we won't see it.



Fofer said:


> Correction: It is $99, plus a required monthly subscription fee.
> 
> So price the Preview (which really could use a different name, "Preview" is too similar to "Premiere") at $199, or maybe $249 -- no monthly fees -- and you've got yourself a winner.
> 
> Or price it at $49, with $5/monthly. I'd go for that.


I mentioned that. I am just going off seeing the two boxes on the shelf side by side to the average consumer who may not know a lot about TiVo.

I do agree Preview is a pretty bad name, but I felt the Q was also.

I think if they can get it for $199 and no fee they will do it. It would sell. I just see it being tough for them, but we don't know what their true costs for guide data are.

I don't see them able to do $49 just due to the Cable Labs certification. If it didn't have the tuner, I could see them doing it for $100 and no fee. It could potentially make sense to make a no tuner retail version since it could be their streaming box to compete against companies like WD and Boxee while offering an extender model.


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## RichB

If the Preview has a monthly fee, maybe they should just rename it the Tick. 

- Rich


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## bareyb

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've been holding off on any kind of upgrade until something perfect comes along. If Comcast offered a Q/cable box, that would just about qualify. Having the full range of Comcast's offerings plus the four tuners and (most of all) the TiVo interface, yeah, I'd go for that.


Same here. I'm still on my old Series 3's (two of them). If they can put a decent chip in it and the menus work properly (fast) I'm definitely in for two of 'em. That's all the Tuners we'd ever need here. I'd switch back to DirecTV if they ever release a TiVo box with four tuners. They were more reliable than Comcast, but hey, I'll take either one.


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## MichaelK

not to be combative but who is really going to pay 199 or 299 for a preview when all the other 'extender' type boxes have much better clients for things like netflix/amazon/mlb/etc and for cheaper? Popcorn, roku, xbox, ps3, upteen blueray players are all around the same or cheaper but can do more or better than tivo's weak 0.9 version clients. 

the only point to such a thing would be to stream from a tivo so the the market is just going to be limited to some subset of existing tivo users. It's not going to be anything resembling mass market. At least some of the 'power users' that might be interested also already make use of tivotogo to get content on their pc. THey could convert and use something like twonky to stream to the alternate boxes above. So the only forced market is Tivo users on Time Warner or other providers that flag content so it has to be streamed in tivo native format. Tivo might be better off to spent the money to engineer/market a preview on lobbying the FCC to get time warner et al to stop the nonsense.

I'm not sure it's possible to find a price point that people are willing to pay that tivo can at least break even on based on the likely feature set (eg everything a tivo does now minus the DVR). Do people pay a significant premium for the tv's with tivo built in? Doubt it.


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## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> not to be combative but who is really going to pay 199 or 299 for a preview when all the other 'extender' type boxes have much better clients for things like netflix/amazon/mlb/etc and for cheaper? Popcorn, roku, xbox, ps3, upteen blueray players are all around the same or cheaper but can do more or better than tivo's weak 0.9 version clients.


The 360 costs $199 minimum plus the cost of live every year. Not sure how that is cheaper than $199.


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## Fofer

MichaelK said:


> Do people pay a significant premium for the tv's with tivo built in? Doubt it.


Hard to say. The TV's with "tivo built in" don't really have TiVo's built in them. (IE: There's no DVR.) It's basically just TiVo-styled UI and menus and who the heck wants that...?


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## rainwater

I'm not sure why people expect the the Preview to cost very much. What components in it would lead to $300? Flash storage (no hard drive) and a single digital tuner (if even that) should not lead to a very expensive device.


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## mattack

nrc said:


> When TiVo discussed the Preview in their results conference call it was purely as a cable box aimed at MSOs. I don't think they see a good return on offering it at retail given that they can't make a good case for subscription fees on such a device.


I have no idea what the hardware cost is, but the current $900-$1000 price (including lifetime subscription) is pretty ridiculous IMHO. For a couple hundred less than that, I would consider "giving up" my existing Tivos (dead S3 and very flaky TivoHD) for a single 4 tuner box.. Since in retrospect, they've actually lasted reasonably long including lifetime subscriptions. (Not as long as I wanted/expected.. but still.)


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## innocentfreak

rainwater said:


> I'm not sure why people expect the the Preview to cost very much. What components in it would lead to $300? Flash storage (no hard drive) and a single digital tuner (if even that) should not lead to a very expensive device.


You are forgetting cable labs and CableCARD hardware. The certification process is costly and o is the hardware. TiVo has petitioned the FCC to investigate multiple times why the hardware hasn't come down in price when so many cable card devices are out there.


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## rainwater

innocentfreak said:


> You are forgetting cable labs and CableCARD hardware. The certification process is costly and o is the hardware. TiVo has petitioned the FCC to investigate multiple times why the hardware hasn't come down in price when so many cable card devices are out there.


If they bring it to retail, it's not clear that it will even include a cablecard slot. Even with a cablecard, I wouldn't expect it to be that costly. Cablelabs certification cost is nothing compared to the costs of a multiple tuner chip, hard drive, etc (which the preview will not have).


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## sbiller

rainwater said:


> If they bring it to retail, it's not clear that it will even include a cablecard slot. Even with a cablecard, I wouldn't expect it to be that costly. Cablelabs certification cost is nothing compared to the costs of a multiple tuner chip, hard drive, etc (which the preview will not have).


I expect them to bring it to retail in the exact configuration as the MSO version. It doesn't make sense from a logistics perspective for them to significantly modify the design. I expect we will see a cost of $79 - $99 with $6.95/month or $199 lifetime on the Preview.


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## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> If they bring it to retail, it's not clear that it will even include a cablecard slot. Even with a cablecard, I wouldn't expect it to be that costly. Cablelabs certification cost is nothing compared to the costs of a multiple tuner chip, hard drive, etc (which the preview will not have).


It won't be of any use without a cablecard slot. It will have a digital tuner so it needs a cable card to properly tune the channels.


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## RichB

sbiller said:


> I expect them to bring it to retail in the exact configuration as the MSO version. It doesn't make sense from a logistics perspective for them to significantly modify the design. I expect we will see a cost of $79 - $99 with $6.95/month or $199 lifetime on the Preview.


I will not buy any TiVo product without a lifetime subscription.

- Rich


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## ghuido

Question for the group, does anyone know if it has the same CPU as the TIVO Premiere or did they upgrage it? 

Just wondering wit the ability to stream 4 channels should it have more processing power


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## b_scott

innocentfreak said:


> The 360 costs $199 minimum plus the cost of live every year. Not sure how that is cheaper than $199.


well, Tivo is $20 a month. Live can be gotten with a card for around $40 a year. Even with lifetime, the 360 will cost less than the Tivo over its lifetime. And it plays games and DVDs on top of that.


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## Fofer

But a 360 isn't a DVR, like a TiVo is. It's merely an extender for an HTPC that costs a whole lot more (and doesn't nearly as easily pass the WAF test.)


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## Joe3

ghuido said:


> Question for the group, does anyone know if it has the same CPU as the TIVO Premiere or did they upgrage it?
> 
> Just wondering wit the ability to stream 4 channels should it have more processing power


Good question, my guess your question would be the first time TiVo Inc has ever heard it asked.


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## bareyb

Joe3 said:


> Good question, my guess your question would be the first time TiVo Inc has ever heard it asked.


It makes sense that they'd upgrade the processor. It would be stupid to put in a processor that's too slow to run the new software.


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## innocentfreak

b_scott said:


> well, Tivo is $20 a month. Live can be gotten with a card for around $40 a year. Even with lifetime, the 360 will cost less than the Tivo over its lifetime. And it plays games and DVDs on top of that.


We were talking about the Preview, not the Premiere. I don't know what your point is.


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## BigJimOutlaw

ghuido said:


> Question for the group, does anyone know if it has the same CPU as the TIVO Premiere or did they upgrage it?
> 
> Just wondering wit the ability to stream 4 channels should it have more processing power


The clues thus far seem to point to the hardware being basically the same (same CPU) though there might be more memory for the extra tuners.


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## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> Hard to say. The TV's with "tivo built in" don't really have TiVo's built in them. (IE: There's no DVR.) It's basically just TiVo-styled UI and menus and who the heck wants that...?


Sorry wasnt clear that's what I meant.

What else is the preview going to do?


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## Fofer

It's apparently going to be a streaming client, for access to recorded shows on the "parent" TiVo Elite (and one hopes, Premiere.)

The "TiVo powered" TV's by Insignia, as currently sold by Best Buy, do not have that capability.


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## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> But a 360 isn't a DVR, like a TiVo is. It's merely an extender for an HTPC that costs a whole lot more (and doesn't nearly as easily pass the WAF test.)


A preview isnt a DVR either.

Anyway ignore that I brought up a 360. There's still the others. No one is going to buy a preview who doesnt have a TiVo. Plenty with TiVo already buy roku's or other extenders. Others will want multiple tivo's. There's just a small market segment for these.


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## Rebate_King

Fofer said:


> It's apparently going to be a streaming client, for access to recorded shows on the "parent" TiVo Elite (and one hopes, Premiere.)
> 
> The "TiVo powered" TV's by Insignia, as currently sold by Best Buy, do not have that capability.


Yet! There are rumors that a software update to the insignia TV's will give it streaming capabilities.


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## Fofer

Rebate_King said:


> Yet! There are rumors that a software update to the insignia TV's will give it streaming capabilities.


Right, and the are rumors that the Premiere's HDUI will one day be complete, and the second processor core will be activated for better performance. And yet we've been waiting for over a year. Point being, I certainly wouldn't buy a TV set today based on a TiVo function that is rumored to (possibly) be on the horizon.


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## jfh3

MichaelK said:


> No one is going to buy a preview who doesnt have a TiVo.


Not true. The Preview will be marketed by the cable companies as a standalone cable box. I have no reason to believe that TiVo won't do the same thing if it is available at retail. It would certainly be a better option then anything out there for someone who has no interest in a DVR.


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## MichaelK

jfh3 said:


> Not true. The Preview will be marketed by the cable companies as a standalone cable box. I have no reason to believe that TiVo won't do the same thing if it is available at retail. It would certainly be a better option then anything out there for someone who has no interest in a DVR.


I'd agree about cable. I should have been more clear and qualified with "at retail". Cable companies certainly may buy them. But i dont think more than a handful of people without tivo's are going to buy one at retail when roku or a google tv or a blueray player or something does a better job. I guess someone wanting "one box" that does cablecard (without OTA) and streaming might buy one but how big is that market likely to be?

maybe I'm wrong and tivo can figure out how to price them to make a profit and sell a ton, and then the preview will be the mass market hit which saves tivo. But i just dont see it happening. Just my 2 cents. I guess we'll find out if/when they ever go on sale at the best buy or wherever...


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## sbiller

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26403794-TiVo-RCN-TIVo-Whole-Home-DVR-solution-is-almost-here.~start=40


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## jmpage2

Looks wonderful if you are on RCN, but would be nice if they would sell the Preview to those of us on other provider networks.


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## Johncv

jmpage2 said:


> Looks wonderful if you are on RCN, but would be nice if they would sell the Preview to those of us on other provider networks.


Would be nicer if RCN brought out Cox, Comcast, and Time-Waner.


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## sbiller

Another new feature being released to RCN early next year (Q1).... remote recording start from the Preview.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26508672-TiVo-RCN-TiVo-Multi-Room-Solution.


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## lew

sbiller said:


> I expect them to bring it to retail in the exact configuration as the MSO version. It doesn't make sense from a logistics perspective for them to significantly modify the design. I expect we will see a cost of $79 - $99 with $6.95/month or $199 lifetime on the Preview.


Tivo won't have the bandwidth costs of a unit which needs to receive guide data on a daily basis. It would take a $99 cost including LS to be attractive to me. I might consider it up to $199 with LS. $300 is crazy.


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