# New Tivo Message this morning



## Fatbloke (Feb 26, 2002)

My Tivo was pointing me to http://www.tivo.com/bskybserviceagreement this morning.

Any idea what's different to the previous agreement? Perhaps it's something to do with the removal of the monthly service charge?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

System Message:


> Subject:	Notification of Updated TiVo Service Agreement
> From:	The TiVo Team
> Date:	Fri 7th Jan 2011
> Expire:	Wed 26th Jan 2011
> ...


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

At least it gives an email contact address which hopefully is valid.

Otherwise it looks much the same to me.

Automan.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Comparing it to the August 2008 version the only noteworthy changes are the deletion of the S2-S4 specific stuff and the deletion of this clause from para 9:



> WITH RESPECT TO ANY NEW TIVO SERVICE SUBSCRIPTION ACTIVATED ON OR AFTER SEPTEMBER 6, 2005, YOU AGREE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE TIVO SERVICE FOR NO LESS THAN 12 MONTHS OR LONGER DEPENDING UPON YOUR SERVICE SUBSCRIPTION PLAN (THE "SERVICE COMMITMENT"). IF YOU FAIL TO MEET THE SERVICE COMMITMENT BY CANCELLING YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO THE TIVO SERVICE (OR IF TIVO TERMINATES YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO THE TIVO SERVICE DUE TO A BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT), YOU AGREE THAT TIVO MAY CHARGE YOU THE EARLY TERMINATION FEE AGREED TO BY YOU AT THE TIME YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THE TIVO SERVICE, AND YOU AGREE TO PAY ANY SUCH EARLY TERMINATION FEE.


So, reading between the lines, it seems they are not signing up any new customers.

The corollary being that they may therefore continue to support existing ones?  I can see lifetime-subbed Tivos on fleece-u-bay sky-rocketing in silly priciness.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

Automan said:


> At least it gives an email contact address which hopefully is valid.
> 
> Otherwise it looks much the same to me.
> 
> Automan.


AND the agreement is with Tivo Inc (not BSKYB or Virgin)

I think the fact that they've even bothered to do this feels like a "good thing" 

PS It's a shame that the title of this thread is so vague


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

spitfires said:


> I can see lifetime-subbed Tivos on fleece-u-bay sky-rocketing in silly priciness.


But don't forget, us monthly-subbers are (currently) not paying either, so (for now) there is no difference between lifetime and monthly subscriptions!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's not new, but for the "thay can't take my lifetime away it wouldn't be legal" crew:



> TiVo reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for any other reason or no reason if TiVo gives you at least 30 days advance notice of such termination


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

With no income stream from UK S1 users and no standalone boxes on the horizon, these announcements puzzle me no end. How long before we are studying clauses 6 and 15 more closely...?


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> It's not new, but for the "thay can't take my lifetime away it wouldn't be legal" crew:


There's also, for a large number of users:


> (14) The subscription remains in effect ... even if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity (though such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR *and constitute a breach of this Agreement*)


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> > TiVo reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for any other reason or no reason if TiVo gives you at least 30 days advance notice of such termination
> 
> 
> It's not new, but for the "thay can't take my lifetime away it wouldn't be legal" crew:


Wasn't there a termination clause already in the agreement? It'd be most surprising if there hadn't been some sort of get-out for Tivo from the very beginning!


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

Also, parts of clause 15 are contradicted by clause 14 which says


> A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It was there already, I said that.

No contradiction. A contract can have a stated life, and also a termination clause which cuts it short.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

PhilG said:


> spitfires said:
> 
> 
> > I can see lifetime-subbed Tivos on fleece-u-bay sky-rocketing in silly priciness.
> ...


My point was more to do with if they keep the service running but don't activate any _new_ subscriptions (see other threads where people with old inactive boxes can't get them re-activated) a Tivo with an active account (e.g. a lifetime sub) will be the only way to get a new working box.


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

spitfires said:


> My point was more to do with if they keep the service running but don't activate any _new_ subscriptions (see other threads where people with old inactive boxes can't get them re-activated) a Tivo with an active account (e.g. a lifetime sub) will be the only way to get a new working box.


Thing is I'd really quite like to reactivate my monthly subbed unit and give Tivo money!
I always thought the Tivo sub was better value than paying Sky for a bunch of channels I don't watch.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

djqster said:


> Thing is I'd really quite like to reactivate my monthly subbed unit and give Tivo money!
> I always thought the Tivo sub was better value than paying Sky for a bunch of channels I don't watch.


Me too - although it's nice to have it free, I'd rather pay to have it CONTINUE!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Suggests someone at TiVo HQ is actively thinking about the S1 subscribers at the moment.

Whether you think this is a good or bad thing depends on your perspective I guess.

Me, I think I'd be happier to be ignored!


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## ghstone (Apr 12, 2003)

Okay, just read it through and the significant piecethat stood out for me, is that thwe Tivo Daily call is 'a local call' and may also be availalbe over broadband connection. the daily call has I think, until now been free.....


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That's a hangover from the fact that it was the same contract for US and UK.


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## andyfoxccp (Apr 8, 2004)

Could this just be a start of the sort out for the Virgin Media launch of their Tivo boxes?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

ghstone said:


> Okay, just read it through and the significant piecethat stood out for me, is that thwe Tivo Daily call is 'a local call' and may also be availalbe over broadband connection. the daily call has I think, until now been free.....


As I said above, the only material change from the current contract is the removal of the requirement to subscribe for at least 12 months.

Surprised there's been no speculation as to what this removal might mean!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That clause of for Americans, (New TiVo subscriptions were not being sold in the UK in 2005) so it's probably just housekeeping in creating a UK only contract from a joint one.


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## wibblewibble (Jan 17, 2011)

Hmmmm. Even though it says account in good standing and guide data up to 5th Feb,
I only have guide data up until 22nd Jan.
Anybody else with this issue?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

You have guide data to 5th Feb - but BBC/ITV only until 22nd Jan.

But if you forced a call it will add another week.


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## wibblewibble (Jan 17, 2011)

That's the first thing I checked.
It had done it's daily update only a couple of hours earlier.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

wibblewibble said:


> That's the first thing I checked.
> It had done it's daily update only a couple of hours earlier.


And you have to wait between 1-2 hours for that data to be processed!

I have BBC/ITV up to 29th Jan - which is as far as the channels have released.


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## rondun (Jan 24, 2006)

wibblewibble said:


> Hmmmm. Even though it says account in good standing and guide data up to 5th Feb,
> I only have guide data up until 22nd Jan.
> Anybody else with this issue?


Yes, my Tivo hasn't been able to perform a daily call since *12 January.* Coincidence?

I get "Failed. Service unavailable."

Tivo can still connect to internet though as I still get daily mails. Tried to force a call through tivoweb and with remote with no luck.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Do you get daily updates by phone or by internet? (The latter is working fine for me).


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## rondun (Jan 24, 2006)

Internet.
Test call succeeds though.

But now after reboots all I get is "Recorder cannot display live TV" message.
Pressing Aux button gives picture fine.

Edit: although powering off at the mains cured that, and somewhere along the line the daily call must have sorted itself because now I have guide data to Feb 6th.
Maybe was a coincidence after all


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

I have a horrible sinking feeling about this. I suspect that they are alerting us all to this agreement so that we can't bring any sort of class action against them when they stop the UK dial-up EPG service.

I have no idea as to the size of the customer base in the UK who are monthly subscribers. Nor do I know where TiVo buy or generate the EPG. However, if they buy this in and pay for a subscription company to manage the monthly subs then if the revenue stream is less than their costs, why lose money.

Ergo pull the plug.

Please tell me that this is not going to happen?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

We've been having this debate on and off for 7 or 8 years.

However things do seem a bit different now, with TiVo re-entering the UK market via Virgin, monthly subs not being charged, and the alert about the user agreement.

Some feel the Virgin thing means TiVo will carry on with the S1 subscribers for a while longer. Others think the opposite.

I suspect myself that your gut feel is right.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

I noticed that the support line is fronted with a Sky announcement. So I am now confused as to who 'owns' the customer base for S1 TiVo's what with the talk of Virgin etc.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Sky still do customer support.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

New system message this morning:



> Subject:	TiVo's changing. Here's what you should know
> From:	The TiVo Team
> Date:	Fri 28th Jan 2011
> Expire:	Fri 4th Feb 2011
> ...


Unfortunately no mention on the Virgin landing page of what will be on offer for no-cable users.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Unfortunately no mention on the Virgin landing page of what will be on offer for no-cable users.


Won't the 'new' TiVo work with broadcast TV, as the features page says it does?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yes, but only via VM's cable service.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

cwaring said:


> Yes, but only via VM's cable service.


Where does it say that?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

FJSRiDER said:


> Where does it say that?


It is there on the Virgin page. Just follow through the links and it quite clearly says 'once you are signed up to Virgin TV'.....and then there is the link...How does it work...and 'enter your postcode to see if you have cable in your area'.....and to be told 'but sadly not TV'.

Virgin TiVo is CABLE ONLY.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

sad_tivo_man said:


> It is there on the Virgin page. Just follow through the links and it quite clearly says 'once you are signed up to Virgin TV'.....and then there is the link...How does it work...and 'enter your postcode to see if you have cable in your area'.....and to be told 'but sadly not TV'.


I can see all that, but it is not saying the TiVo is specifically unavailable to non-cable users is it?


sad_tivo_man said:


> Virgin TiVo is CABLE ONLY.


It may be the case but where does it say that?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

Surely it is obvious? Just how do you expect the technology to work if you don't have a cable? It can't.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Surely it is obvious? Just how do you expect the technology to work if you don't have a cable? It can't.


My current TiVo works without cable.

All I'm asking is where Virgin actually _say_ this is only suitable for their customers _with_ cable as I don't see that they are not offering it to everyone. As I wrote, it may be so, but they are not being very clear about it if that is the case.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

FJSRiDER said:


> My current TiVo works without cable.


So what? 

Tivo is _exclusive_ to VM and their TV serice is only available via cable.

It's not rocket science


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

cwaring said:


> So what?
> 
> Tivo is _exclusive_ to VM and their TV serice is only available via cable.
> 
> It's not rocket science


I'll try again for the hard of thinking. Where have Virgin stated that the new TiVo is '_exclusively_' for use with their cable service?


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

FJSRiDER said:


> I'll try again for the hard of thinking. Where have Virgin stated that the new TiVo is '_exclusively_' for use with their cable service?


Gosh you are right. You should go to a "no win no fee" solicitor now!


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

Muttley1900 said:


> Gosh you are right. You should go to a "no win no fee" solicitor now!


Why? I'm just questioning the _assumption_ that the new TiVo is only for cable services.

It may well be, but I see nothing that confirmed if it is or isn't on the Virgin site. Have you?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

FJSRiDER said:


> Why? I'm just questioning the _assumption_ that the new TiVo is only for cable services.
> 
> It may well be, but I see nothing that confirmed if it is or isn't on the Virgin site. Have you?


Tell you what. I'll bet you £10000 that the new TiVo service is ONLY available on cable.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Tell you what. I'll bet you £10000 that the new TiVo service is ONLY available on cable.


It may well be the case, but where did you get the information (that you replied with earlier) that '_Virgin TiVo is CABLE ONLY_'?

I think that is a simple question, why is it so hard for you to answer?


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

FJSRiDER said:


> Why? I'm just questioning the _assumption_ that the new TiVo is only for cable services.
> 
> It may well be, but I see nothing that confirmed if it is or isn't on the Virgin site. Have you?


What assumption?

Just take a look at the post over at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8266856#post8266856 where Royfox has mailed Cindy Rose the Executive Director of Digital Entertainment for Virgin Media trying to get the S1 owners/users a deal and the response back from Cindy Rose containing:-



> We are indeed working on a special offer to tempt this group over the Virgin Media (at least those who are lucky enough to be on cable).


J.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

An answer, thank you.

So on the How Do I Get It? page they ask 'Can you get *Virgin Media* in your area?' and when I type my postcode in I get told 'You're in a *Virgin Media *National broadband area. That means we can bring you broadband down your phoneline, but sadly not TV.' (my bold)

Still does not say the TiVo won't work does it?


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

FJSRiDER said:


> An answer, thank you.
> 
> So on the How Do I Get It? page they ask 'Can you get *Virgin Media* in your area?' and when I type my postcode in I get told 'You're in a *Virgin Media *National broadband area. That means we can bring you broadband down your phoneline, but sadly not TV.' (my bold)
> 
> Still does not say the TiVo won't work does it?


Oh FFS..what do you want to happen to convince you? A courier bringing a personally signed letter from the Chief Exec?

You are in danger of being labelled a troll.


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

sad_tivo_man said:


> Oh FFS..what do you want to happen to convince you? A courier bringing a personally signed letter from the Chief Exec?
> 
> You are in danger of being labelled a troll.


I'm sure that's right your tiny little mind, someone who asks questions is a troll.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

Whilst I've not seen anything that says that none cabled streets will or won't get the new TiVo I'm 99.9% sure that as I don't live in a cabled street I will not be getting the new TiVo anytime this year.

In the future virgin may delve into ip tv over adsl (along with talk talk et al), if this does happen then I may change my views!

However, I've still registered my interest with virgin media, on roys link and the virgin one, just in case.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

FJSRiDER said:


> It may well be the case, but where did you get the information (that you replied with earlier) that '_Virgin TiVo is CABLE ONLY_'?


If Virgin were to offer any major TV service outside their cable network it would be huge news - with lots of fanfare from virgin media.

The confusing part I think is that VM have mentioned moving their platform to IPTV, but they merely mean different equipment at headend and cable STBs NOT over the wider Internet.

People have them now - it's "only"(*) a US twin tuner premiere box with some on demand features added.

(*) silly to say "only" for such a fully featured box though!


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

The new registration page links to the standard Virgin Media postcode checker
http://shop.virginmedia.com/check-your-postcode/
If you're out of a cable area that page makes a big deal about the fact you can get Virgin Media broadband and phone but not TV and doesn't mention Tivo at all.
It's a pity that a Tivo registration page isn't clearer about this as there is some potential for confusion. Not everyone reads this forum or is clear about the distinctions between the cable network and their ADSL service over BT Lines.

I've registered to ensure that they know I'd like a Tivo if they were able to offer one via ADSL or over the air. I am already a customer of their ADSL and phone products as a hang on from when I moved out of a cabled area.


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## johnscott99 (Sep 23, 2002)

I'm in Hull. 

We don't have BT. 

We have Kingston Communications. 

We can't have any other internet provider. 

We can't have Virgin media. 

So does this mean that the RPG will stop one day and my option is to move virgin media which I can't do? 

We once had a conversation - me and the wife - and we decided all the thing we could live without. The TiVo came above the car and the fridge.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

John....you have it in a nutshell. Join the club.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

johnscott99 said:


> I'm in Hull.
> So does this mean that the RPG will stop one day and my option is to move virgin media which I can't do?


There has been no formal announcement on the future of the Electronic Programme Guide (EPG) for series 1. Everything that is currently being posted is speculation.

It seems obvious to me that at some point the series 1 EPG will come to an end as the units haven't been sold for years. I don't propose to worry about that until it happens.

There are alternatives Sky+, Freeview+, Freesat+, Windows Media Centre, MythTV. It's not Tivo but it isn't the end of the world either.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

AMc said:


> ......
> 
> It seems obvious to me that at some point the series 1 EPG will come to an end as the units haven't been sold for years. I don't propose to worry about that until it happens.


The words 'ostrich' 'head' and 'sand' come to mind.



AMc said:


> There are alternatives Sky+, Freeview+, Freesat+, Windows Media Centre, MythTV. It's not Tivo but it isn't the end of the world either.


That's a value judgement. You might not think it a problem but for many people out there, these are not viable alternatives for many reasons. So the phrase 'it isn't the end of the world' isn't that helpful to them.


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## johnscott99 (Sep 23, 2002)

Any way I can still get TV Guide? I have a turbonet card (somewhere?)


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

AMc said:


> I've registered to ensure that they know I'd like a Tivo if they were able to offer one via ADSL or over the air. I am already a customer of their ADSL and phone products as a hang on from when I moved out of a cabled area.


Me too - just to "make the point" as it were

I wish it was also clearer who will be (or is) currently responsible for us S1 folks - and I don't just mean who provides the (lack of) support

I'm assuming it's Tivo that is supplying the EPG and that may well be independent of the dealings with Virgin.....

But as we all keep saying

We'll have to "wait and see" but for how long I wonder......


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

johnscott99 said:


> Any way I can still get TV Guide? I have a turbonet card (somewhere?)


Huh?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

sad_tivo_man said:


> That's a value judgement. You might not think it a problem but for many people out there, these are not viable alternatives for many reasons. So the phrase 'it isn't the end of the world' isn't that helpful to them.


I'm struggling to think of anyone for whom Sky+, FreeSat or Freeview+ wouldn't be a viable alternative. I guess if you live somewhere where Freeview is not yet available and you can't have a satellite dish - a small group at best.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> I'm struggling to think of anyone for whom Sky+, FreeSat or Freeview+ wouldn't be a viable alternative. I guess if you live somewhere where Freeview is not yet available and you can't have a satellite dish - a small group at best.


I'm not saying that they are not viable alternatives but for everyone. Some people (myself included) have no wish to get involved with Sky. Nor do we wish to have a satellite dish plonked on our building...nor the upheavl in getting it all plumbed in. Others live in Listed Buildings...and Conservation Officers take a very dim view of satellite dishes on Grade II listed buildings.

Even if you can, why force people to spend money that they probably haven't got. Or have to use a lousy user interface?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Freeview + then.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

But the point isn't whether or how to receive content it's whether the "alternatives" have half the brains that TiVo has

Wishlists spring to mind immediately

Can sky+ do those? I think not

The whole point of a TiVo PVR is that you can safely let IT decide what to record


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> Freeview + then.


What difficulty are you having in understanding "Even if you can, why force people to spend money that they probably haven't got. Or have to use a lousy user interface?".


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The context was "what happens when the service stops" - answer, you move to a different system. New system has pros and cons cf TiVo. World continues to spin.

If the service stops, then you are indeed forced to change.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Freeview + then.


Freeview not available on the South Coast.  (officially  )


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Freeview not available on the South Coast.  (officially  )


I expect Freesat is.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Yes probably - Conservation Area though so dishes are < ahem> frowned upon


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Yes probably - Conservation Area though so dishes are < ahem> frowned upon


Yes, my aged mother lives in Bruton, Somerset which is exactly like that. Also not served very well by Freeview (the Bruton repeater carries a limited number of channels). Simple to mount the dish on a pole _behind_ the house rather than bolt it on the front though.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I also live in the Bruton conservation area, I'd advise checking if she can get Mendip; I can despite what the postcode checker says!


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## FJSRiDER (Jan 4, 2003)

TCM2007 said:


> I also live in the Bruton conservation area, I'd advise checking if she can get Mendip; I can despite what the postcode checker says!


:up:

Patwell Street - she can't get anything very well!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Ah, my car radio cuts out on Patwell Street!


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Doo doo, doo doo, "You've now entered the twilight zone."


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

You've been to Bruton then.


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## johnscott99 (Sep 23, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Huh?


A long time ago, there was discussion like this and one chap said that if the EPG stops from one source, he'd host another EPG - somehow.

Is it possible to get a different EPG?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

johnscott99 said:


> A long time ago, there was discussion like this and one chap said that if the EPG stops from one source, he'd host another EPG - somehow.


Oh, right.



> Is it possible to get a different EPG?


Not right now seeing as the official one is still going.


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

johnscott99 said:


> I'm in Hull.


Me too. Telecomms here is utter ****e.


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