# 6.3b - Are they working on it now?



## SHOMan (Jun 2, 2005)

Can anyone with sources at D* or TIVO confirm that they are working on a fix for 6.3a issues (audio, rebooting, etc.) as we speak?

Has anyone been given a timeframe? 

I understand that 6.3 to 6.3a fix happened fairly rapidly. I am hoping for a fix sooner than later.


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## ctromp (Sep 26, 2006)

I posted in another thread that a technical support rep told me that D* was well aware of the audio drop-outs. He told me they should have a fix by sometime mid November. But we all know that D* has made such statements in other cases before and they were simply not true.

So we'll see.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

According to my DirecTV contact, they're working with Tivo's software engineers to diagnose the problem. No time frame on a fix yet, though.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

I am getting daily reboots on my unit....sometime twice in one night. I am in the middle of one right now as I type this. 

I hope that this is fixed soon. 

Audio drop - outs, I swear the picture has gotten worst, constant reboots. 6.3a is a mess!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

denary said:


> I am getting daily reboots on my unit....sometime twice in one night. I am in the middle of one right now as I type this.
> 
> I hope that this is fixed soon.
> 
> Audio drop - outs, I swear the picture has gotten worst, constant reboots. 6.3a is a mess!


I won't totally dismiss the idea that it's somehow caused by 6.3, however reboots would be indicative of a failing hard drive if you ever see any sort of video hesitations or slow remote control response; you could confirm this by reviewing the kernel log file for drive errors/retries if you have access to it via telnet, TiVoWeb or just by pulling the hard drive and booting it on another PC with a Linux CD and lokoing at the file that's there.


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## noahsd (Nov 16, 2005)

dswallow said:


> I won't totally dismiss the idea that it's somehow caused by 6.3, however reboots would be indicative of a failing hard drive if you ever see any sort of video hesitations or slow remote control response; you could confirm this by reviewing the kernel log file for drive errors/retries if you have access to it via telnet, TiVoWeb or just by pulling the hard drive and booting it on another PC with a Linux CD and lokoing at the file that's there.


Well, I have had 6.3a for a couple of weeks and my 250 started rebooting yesterday. I've never had a problem with this unit until this "upgrade". I've had to manually reboot 5x tonight. Woops... as I type this the unit just went into a reboot. I can't believe this is just coincidence.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I haven't had ANY problems with 6.3a. I am only connected using an S-Video cable and analog stereo connection. I know that kind of defeats the main purpose of the unit, but I don't have any audio dropouts or anything. If you're having problems (And this is your only DVR), might want to consider trying that until there's a fix. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather take working analog over non working digital.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

noahsd said:


> Well, I have had 6.3a for a couple of weeks and my 250 started rebooting yesterday. I've never had a problem with this unit until this "upgrade". I've had to manually reboot 5x tonight. Woops... as I type this the unit just went into a reboot. I can't believe this is just coincidence.


One thing that happens when there's an upgrade is a partition that normally was never used is now being used; so if there were problems related to that area of your disk, you'd not have experienced them before now.


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## SHOMan (Jun 2, 2005)

denary said:


> I am getting daily reboots on my unit....sometime twice in one night. I am in the middle of one right now as I type this.
> 
> I hope that this is fixed soon.
> 
> Audio drop - outs, I swear the picture has gotten worst, constant reboots. 6.3a is a mess!


I had one reboot, after which I unplugged the box and plugged it back in. No re-boot since. Have you tried this?


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## SHOMan (Jun 2, 2005)

kturcotte said:


> I haven't had ANY problems with 6.3a. I am only connected using an S-Video cable and analog stereo connection. I know that kind of defeats the main purpose of the unit, but I don't have any audio dropouts or anything. If you're having problems (And this is your only DVR), might want to consider trying that until there's a fix. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather take working analog over non working digital.


I appreciate the suggestion, but I would rather not go back to stone-knives and bear skins. ;-)

I will buy instant cake and get a 3.1.5 image before I go that way.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

A clear and delete everything completely cured my unit of the reboots. I wish I could say the same thing for the Fox audio dropouts.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

Here's a related question: Assuming they are working on 6.3b or whatever it'll be called, what happens to those of us who stuck with 3.1.5f? As soon as we hear of a fix and the reports are positive, do we simply plug our phone lines back in and wait for the download?


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## whsbuss (Dec 16, 2002)

videojanitor said:


> Here's a related question: Assuming they are working on 6.3b or whatever it'll be called, what happens to those of us who stuck with 3.1.5f? As soon as we hear of a fix and the reports are positive, do we simply plug our phone lines back in and wait for the download?


Yes.


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## Titon (Oct 21, 2006)

> Here's a related question: Assuming they are working on 6.3b or whatever it'll be called, what happens to those of us who stuck with 3.1.5f? As soon as we hear of a fix and the reports are positive, do we simply plug our phone lines back in and wait for the download?


Here's my question on this now. Just to reaffirm this. I'm getting a HR10-250 today. If i keep the phone line disconnected this *will* stop the upgrade from loading correct? I've been on a samsung HD reciever for 4 years so slow is nothing new to me. I'd rather have a functioning unit than supposed Folders and speed.


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

This is my strategy for now. But I went to make a test call to set up dial in number after installing a new HDD when the OEM failed and I get "phone is busy" when I try to make a call. Turning off detect dial tone did not help. The same line and jack work fine for my Hughes HDVR2. If I unplug the line from the Tivo it says it doesn't detect a connection so I don't think its a failed modem. I just may be stuck with 3.1.5f.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I manually updated all three of my HDTivos to 6.3/6.3a. I got the audio dropouts and had the video stutter and freeze up only one time one one of them. I got tired of the dropouts and reimaged all three units with 6.3a and then did a clear & delete everything as has been suggested. I then Zippered all three units to restore networking, with the necessary modifications done manually (i.e., iptables, etc.).

Since then, I have had one random reboot and constant audio dropouts on all OTA channels (mostly Fox, as is expected). The C&DE did nothing to reduce the dropout issue. I finally got fed up with the whole thing and have reimaged all three units with 3.1.5f. So far, no serious DD audio issues other than the usual occasional glitch that everyone has experienced with 3.1.5x on their HDTivos.

Ironically, setting up season passes again is a snap and there are no lengthy delays while waiting for the menus to update. I think an occasional C&DE clears out the cobwebs and rejuvenates the OS so that the UI operates faster. I had to restore all season passes on one of the units as I had apparently forgotten to back them up prior to upgrading to 6.3a but I had no problem setting up over a dozen SP's in short order. 

The UI is noticeably slower and I no longer have folders, which is no big deal since I try to keep up with my SP's so the drive doesn't get too full. With everything that's been going on with the OS updates I like to keep the number of recordings at a minimum so I can clear them off quickly to reimage them. The baseball playoffs and WS have made this relatively easy since many shows are in remission until baseball is over.


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## rod456 (Oct 23, 2006)

Titon said:


> Here's my question on this now. Just to reaffirm this. I'm getting a HR10-250 today. If i keep the phone line disconnected this *will* stop the upgrade from loading correct? I've been on a samsung HD reciever for 4 years so slow is nothing new to me. I'd rather have a functioning unit than supposed Folders and speed.


Yes, you may have 6.3 on your Tivo, but it takes the phone call to activate and start the upgrade.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

I was hoping with the Luckies I errrr I mean the Bears having a bye week that Earl would either have gotten some information from his contact that he could share with us or have written new code himself for us to install! :-D


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

litzdog911 said:


> According to my DirecTV contact.


my boss says I have tone but please dont take this with tone..it's a genuine question: are you our new earl? (he seems to have abandoned our tivos) or are you using your own contact (which admittedly I may not have known because I dont follow threads all that well)

also if you are our new earl, i need to hand over the keys to the washroom


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## smarsh66 (Apr 17, 2004)

i can tell you that, at least in my situation, the reboots WERE being caused by the crappy WD drive.... No reboots before the 6.3a upgrade (never got 6.3, was on 3.15f for over 1.5 years)... After 6.3a, reboots started several days later and got progressively worse.

Clear and delete everything did NOT complete after more than 40hours. I yanked the WD drive and bought a new 320GB Maxtor too compliment the 300GB Maxtor i had as a secondary drive already. Caked it to 3.15, and got the 6.3a update 2 days later. working PERFECTLY so far.

I suspect (like it has been suggested several times already)... it's the 'other' partition problem. I ran diagnostics using SpinRite on the Crappy WD Stock Drive and it complained of imminent failure (from SMART)..... Gave the drive to my oldest son with a Torx driver and said "have fun!". I knew i was buying time with the stock drive.

Happy 6.3a with 620GB so far.... and vewee, vewee quiet to boot!

Sam

P.S. never had audio drop outs...before or after. Then again i only watch Fox during Superbowl anyway.... all my other OTA (KPBS, CBS, WB, NBC) are fine.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Markman07 said:


> I was hoping with the Luckies I errrr I mean the Bears having a bye week that Earl would either have gotten some information from his contact that he could share with us or have written new code himself for us to install! :-D


Earl posted over at dbstalk that D* are aware of the issues and are working w/ Tivo on a fix. No ETA, though

dbstalk


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I have not had a single spontaneous reboot on any of my 3 6.3a boxes. Of course none of them are using the stock drive so that likely factors in heavily.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

When my HR10-250 first upgraded to 6.3 (no "a") I had a spontaneous reboot. After moving to 6.3a, no reboots at all. Stock drive.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

cheer said:


> When my HR10-250 first upgraded to 6.3 (no "a") I had a spontaneous reboot. After moving to 6.3a, no reboots at all. Stock drive.


That can be because the first upgrade used the new partition for the OS; the second upgrade reused the partition that was in use before the first upgrade.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

dswallow said:


> That can be because the first upgrade used the new partition for the OS; the second upgrade reused the partition that was in use before the first upgrade.


You're making a few assumptions there.  I've actually done the 6.3a upgrade twice; the second time was straight from 3.1.5f. The drive's also been wiped and restored in the interim (and had a thorough date with Spinrite). She be fine.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

kturcotte said:


> I haven't had ANY problems with 6.3a. I am only connected using an S-Video cable and analog stereo connection. I know that kind of defeats the main purpose of the unit, but I don't have any audio dropouts or anything. If you're having problems (And this is your only DVR), might want to consider trying that until there's a fix. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather take working analog over non working digital.


Nice Fix  I might was well swap it out with my SD unit to "fix" the issue.


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## judson_west (Nov 10, 2001)

I received 6.3a over a month ago. I have had no drop-out issues since. I was experiencing drop-out issues while on 3.1.5f, but they were very intermittent and have not occurred since. I use HDMI to my TV and Toslink to my A/V receiver. I have the TiVo set for DD with no PCM conversion. The only OTA station I record from regularly from is the local WB station. My FOX viewing/recording is from the SAT channel.


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## jamieh1 (Mar 5, 2003)

Since my 6.3 update, every time I change the channel, I get a quick, searching for sat signal. This even happens when on ota.


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## mjones73 (Apr 13, 2004)

jamielee said:



> Since my 6.3 update, every time I change the channel, I get a quick, searching for sat signal. This even happens when on ota.


That's a known issue that's been reported in other threads.


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## kbohip (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't know why people keep asking about Earl in here. It's quite obvious to me that he's an HR20 only man now and no longer has any interest in a machine he no longer owns. He's probably busy enough over in the other forum trying to keep up with the weekly software updates for the supposedly reliable HR20 POS.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

POS... LOL!


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

kbohip said:


> He's probably busy enough over in the other forum trying to keep up with the weekly software updates for the supposedly reliable HR20 POS.


Hey, thats not fair. It will have OTA....eventually.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Lee L said:


> Hey, thats not fair. It will have OTA....eventually.


hehe... just got through checking all the release notes threads myself over there to see if it's been enabled yet. Weekly software updates... reminds me of reading Dish Network forums.


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## mgoddard1 (Jun 2, 2004)

Could the HR20 be directv's version of the dishnetwork 921? Nah, even the bug-ridden 921 had OTA enabled when they kicked it out the door.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

newsposter said:


> ...
> 
> also if you are our new earl, i need to hand over the keys to the washroom


I would hardly consider myself the "new Earl". I do have some DirecTV contacts through my "TechKnow Guide" role at DirecTV's support forum and a few other contacts I've developed during the past couple of years, but probably nothing as extensive as Earl's. However, I don't think Earl is really using HR10-250 anymore, so he's not spending much time here. I'll do what I can to find out from DirecTV what's being done (and when) to fix the v6.3a problems.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I won't totally dismiss the idea that it's somehow caused by 6.3, however reboots would be indicative of a failing hard drive if you ever see any sort of video hesitations or slow remote control response; you could confirm this by reviewing the kernel log file for drive errors/retries if you have access to it via telnet, TiVoWeb or just by pulling the hard drive and booting it on another PC with a Linux CD and lokoing at the file that's there.


So if this is true and my HD is hosed...what does that mean for me? I received this unit July 06 and it is leased.

I have no interest in having it replaced with HR20. Can I simply replace the drive myself and get an image from InstantCake? Or does this unit need to go back to DirecTv and they can replace the drive?

I apologize for asking these questions as I'm certain they are covered elsewhere on these boards.

I just got home tonight and the HR10-250 has already rebooted twice. I am thinking it might be the HD....6.3a really hosed my box.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

denary said:


> So if this is true and my HD is hosed...what does that mean for me? I received this unit July 06 and it is leased.
> 
> I have no interest in having it replaced with HR20. Can I simply replace the drive myself and get an image from InstantCake? Or does this unit need to go back to DirecTv and they can replace the drive?
> 
> ...


There's no reason you can't replace the drive, even if it's a leased unit; just keep the old drive around so you can put it back in before you return the unit. Some have also said DirecTV has HR10-250's again to ship as replacements/repairs, but frankly if you're not concerned about buying a 250GB or larger drive yourself, I'd just do it myself. There's other benefits you can give yourself (various hacks to make it more functional/usable) which you'll be able to do when you replace the drive.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

dswallow said:


> There's no reason you can't replace the drive, even if it's a leased unit; just keep the old drive around so you can put it back in before you return the unit. Some have also said DirecTV has HR10-250's again to ship as replacements/repairs, but frankly if you're not concerned about buying a 250GB or larger drive yourself, I'd just do it myself. There's other benefits you can give yourself (various hacks to make it more functional/usable) which you'll be able to do when you replace the drive.


Also - saw this posted in another thread. I am not alone with these issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by spooniep
I got the 6.3a upgrade about a week ago, and everything seemed fine for the first few days.

For the last two days, I've had one spontaneous reboot (no big deal), but the bigger problem is that sometimes the TiVo becomes totally non-responsive to all buttons (on the face panel or remote). It still continues to show live TV at the time, but other than that, it doesn't do anything. I have to do the power cord yank three times in the last 24 hours now.

Has anyone else had this problem with 6.3a, or does it sound like another unrelated problem.... And does anyone have any suggestions, other than buying a new HR10-250 (not that I'm confident that would be a good move either).

I had the exact same problem this morning. I hope this does not start happening over and over. I am really starting to believe there is some serious bugs with 6.3 that need to be worked out soon.​
I called DirecTV this evening about replacing the HR10-250. According to Level II technical service they are all out. I was placed on a "list" to have one sent out once they get some more back in stock.


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## mulscully (May 31, 2003)

replacing the unit is meaningless in most cases. It's the SW release..

I already observed it not recording shows when it should.. See other thread on "Most serious 6.3a bug"

If they aren't working on 6.3b they will not be driving me to the H20 but back to comc*st.. and that says alot 'cause I hate them...


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## epeters (Jun 17, 2003)

just got off the phone with "Anna" from Customer support who told me that the problems(8-10 second audio dropouts) was reported a month ago and was fixed with 6.3 I told her the problems started with 6.3 she said that "oh, yes that was 6.3, 6.3a was just released and that fixed it !! I told her that, no, 6.3a was also bad and she said, and I quote, "Just as we've been talking, the fix came up on my screen...you need to re-auto-detect the satellites." (some procedure in the main menus that warns you not to do without Customer service recommendation; it involved hitting the thumbs down button three times and pressing enter. Did it and know I'll have to wait this evening to see if the dropouts continue.

Doesn't sound like a fix to me. She said to call 1-800-824-9081
if the problem continues. 

How can these people be so ill informed; I felt like I was giving her customer service, not the other way around.

Eric


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## ctromp (Sep 26, 2006)

LOL

I'm still keeping mine unplugged from the phone and sticking with 3.5.1f until I read on tivocummunity that there is a fix.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

epeters said:


> "Just as we've been talking, the fix came up on my screen...you need to re-auto-detect the satellites."


That is almost funny. Almost.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

bwaldron said:


> That is almost funny. Almost.


I'm pretty sure I (or someone) started a thread about the goofy things CSRs say. That definitely was near the top

I can picture her near the screen...glaring..then POOF


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

After calling DirecTV on 10/25 and asking for a replacement HR10-250 I was informed that they were out of stock. I would be placed on a list and called once they had more in stock.

I came home this evening to a new HR10-250 sitting on the front porch!


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

denary said:


> After calling DirecTV on 10/25 and asking for a replacement HR10-250 I was informed that they were out of stock. I would be placed on a list and called once they had more in stock.
> 
> I came home this evening to a new HR10-250 sitting on the front porch!


It's the DVR elves!


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

epeters said:


> just got off the phone with "Anna" from Customer support who told me that the problems(8-10 second audio dropouts) was reported a month ago and was fixed with 6.3 I told her the problems started with 6.3 she said that "oh, yes that was 6.3, 6.3a was just released and that fixed it !! I told her that, no, 6.3a was also bad and she said, and I quote, "Just as we've been talking, the fix came up on my screen...you need to re-auto-detect the satellites." (some procedure in the main menus that warns you not to do without Customer service recommendation; it involved hitting the thumbs down button three times and pressing enter. Did it and know I'll have to wait this evening to see if the dropouts continue.
> 
> Doesn't sound like a fix to me. She said to call 1-800-824-9081
> if the problem continues.
> ...


FWIW, we are recommending that folks stick with 3.1.5f until there is a consensus here that 6.3 is at least as reliable.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I have 6.3a and have no reboot problem. The unit is 18 months old and has the original harddrive.


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## WeKnSmith (Jun 24, 2002)

We have two HR10s. One is coming up on two years old, the other is a leased unit that is just a few months old. Both are on 6.3a, and we have not had a single problem with either. * 



* - Both are set to NOT record DD since our 10 year old Sony tuner doesn't support optical/coax DD anyway


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## mgmrick (Aug 28, 2002)

6.3 and 6.3a should have been stopped dead in it's tracks.

Tried to watch world series game on fox last night.......yeh guess what audio drop outs like crazy........

Mine is not full so I don't have the other problem some people have with recordings not recording.

D* knew this problem was there and they went ahead and released 6.3 and 6.3a...poor plan on their part.

Rick


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

noahsd said:


> Well, I have had 6.3a for a couple of weeks and my 250 started rebooting yesterday. I've never had a problem with this unit until this "upgrade". I've had to manually reboot 5x tonight. Woops... as I type this the unit just went into a reboot. I can't believe this is just coincidence.


The fact that it you ran 6.3a for a couple of weeks without problems suggests that your current problems are more likely a disk failure than 6.3a software bugs. I had similar problems within a couple of weeks of getting 6.3a, and I'm 100% certain it wasn't a problem with 6.3a. Why? Because my problems occurred a couple of weeks _before_ getting 6.3a.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

What I find fascinating about all this is that DirecTV had 6.3 in-house for more than a year before releasing it (from an impeccable source.) It is all very puzzling.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

I find it very interesting reading of reboots on this and other threads within these boards. It seems to me that many people are running into the same issues with reboots, etc. 

One common response from contributor's is that the hard disk is failing. While this may very well be true, I also feel that the software update played a part in this. 

I find it hard to believe that the problems people are having are all related to HD failures. It seems that many people are having the same reboot issue and while it may be HD related...I am hesitant to believe that all these HD's failed around the same time that 6.3a was released.


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## Paul Wozniak (Jun 5, 2006)

My unit is brand new, downloaded 6.3a two weeks ago, and audio problems popped up two nights ago on PCM and DD. I doubt that this a hard drive problem. This problem only exists on FOX for me.


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## ssandhoops (Feb 23, 2002)

denary said:


> I find it very interesting reading of reboots on this and other threads within these boards. It seems to me that many people are running into the same issues with reboots, etc.
> 
> One common response from contributor's is that the hard disk is failing. While this may very well be true, I also feel that the software update played a part in this.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that the problems people are having are all related to HD failures. It seems that many people are having the same reboot issue and while it may be HD related...I am hesitant to believe that all these HD's failed around the same time that 6.3a was released.


For me, the 6.3a update seemed to fix my reboot problems. My HR10-250 was starting to reboot fairly regularly prior to the 6.3a upgrade, at least once a day and sometimes more than that. Like most, I was under the impression that reboots were most likely an indication of the hard drive going bad. However, another thread on this forum suggests reboots could be an indication of the Tivo database being corrupt and a clear and delete or clearing out the todo list and season pass info may also fix. I was about ready to try this when the 6.3a update came and I've not had a reboot in 2 weeks, so I'm thinking my database was corrupt and the upgrade fixed that when everything was converted and re-indexed.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

denary said:


> I find it very interesting reading of reboots on this and other threads within these boards. It seems to me that many people are running into the same issues with reboots, etc.
> 
> One common response from contributor's is that the hard disk is failing. While this may very well be true, I also feel that the software update played a part in this.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that the problems people are having are all related to HD failures. It seems that many people are having the same reboot issue and while it may be HD related...I am hesitant to believe that all these HD's failed around the same time that 6.3a was released.


There really should be a sticky thread on this, "Do software updates cause hard drive failures?" Simply because every time there is a software update, this discussion occurs...

... the reason why it plays out like this is because the software update DOES play a part in this, but it is not the CAUSE of the actual hard drive failure. Read on...

There are active and inactive partitions on your TiVo hard drive. At any given time, the current version of the software is running from the active partitions on your hard drive; when a software update is received, it is installed on an inactive partition, the active/inactive partitions are swapped and the unit is rebooted. Now the old inactive partition becomes the active one.

The reason why there are more failures after a software installation is because you are now using a portion of the disk drive that has not been in use for some time -- if there are bad sectors on the disk; or spots on the magnetic surface that have been going bad in the time that that portion has not been use, they will begin to show themselves as that portion of the drive begins to be used again.

And that is why the system may reboot and begin to perform erratically.

Does the software update play a role in this? Well, technically, yes -- if you never received the update, then you may not know about the underlying problem (especially if it doesn't spread -- and it usually does). Does that mean its the cause of the failure? Not really. Other things could cause that failure to rear its ugly head, as well -- C&D everthing, pulling the plug and rebooting the system, etc have also helped to flush out hard drive problems (those actions never really fix anything).

So... having seen this happen about a dozen times over the past six years... I think its pretty safe to say that in most cases (if not all) the reboots ARE due to a defective hard drive. In the small number of units that don't have bad hard drives, I'd suggest bad cables, or bad hardware of some other sort before I'd blame the software.

I'm not saying that the software doesn't have problems - it does - but when it comes to this kind of hardware instability, I'd suggest that if it were buggy software that were causing it, the problem would be much wider-spread than it is. Granted, its always possible that things are playing out differently than they have in the past - but if the past IS an indication of what is likely, then the most likely culprit would be a bad drive, and running basic, advanced, and low-level formats on the drive should be the first things you do before declaring it to be a software problem...


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

ssandhoops said:


> For me, the 6.3a update seemed to fix my reboot problems. My HR10-250 was starting to reboot fairly regularly prior to the 6.3a upgrade, at least once a day and sometimes more than that. Like most, I was under the impression that reboots were most likely an indication of the hard drive going bad. However, another thread on this forum suggests reboots could be an indication of the Tivo database being corrupt and a clear and delete or clearing out the todo list and season pass info may also fix. I was about ready to try this when the 6.3a update came and I've not had a reboot in 2 weeks, so I'm thinking my database was corrupt and the upgrade fixed that when everything was converted and re-indexed.


In your case, I'd still suspect a problem with the hard drive. Now, I'm not saying that your database wasn't corrupt, but what would cause it to have become that way? Losing of data, perhaps -- most likely cause? A problem with the hard drive.

Why are you not experiencing reboots now? Because the active partition that may have bad sectors on it is not being used right now. Whether the problem goes away entirely or spreads is random - things might work forever or they may not.

Since I didn't mention 'software corruption' in my previous post... I've seen many posts where people suspect that as the problem and think that reimaging their drive or doing a clear and delete everything will solve the problem - that may appear to solve the problem temporarily, but it really doesn't. Something has to happen to cause the software corruption - and it has been our experience, to date, that 100% of the time, that sort of corruption is caused by a defective hard drive, or bad hardware. Really - 100% of the time we've had customer units/kits shipped to us with 'green screen' problems or spontaneous reboots, we've either diagnosed the bad hard drive, or found a bad cable in the TiVo unit. I'd say 99% of the time its been the hard drive. Hard to beleive? Its true - we've never ever seen a green screen drive that couldn't be diagnosed as bad.

So my suggestion would be -- run basic and advanced (non-destructive) diags on that drive, and you might be surprised at the results. If they still pass - I'd suggest a low-level format, but that IS destructive and might not be worth the effort unless you truly want to get to the root of the problem.


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## ctromp (Sep 26, 2006)

So I have a brand new HR10-250. I've only been running it since Tuesday so less than a week. It was purchased new in a sealed box. In theory then, if the 6.3a issues are hard drive related, I shouldn't have the audio drop outs and reboots on this brand new drive correct? So the question becomes, do I let my HR10 update to 6.3a? My HR10 came with 3.5.1e of which I updated to 3.5.1f via Instantcake. I'm runnign 3.5.1f now.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

ctromp said:


> It was purchased new in a sealed box. In theory then, if the 6.3a issues are hard drive related, I shouldn't have the audio drop outs and reboots on this brand new drive correct?


I believe what "tivoupgrade" is saying is that the reboot problem could be hard drive related, and I would agree with him/her on that. The audio problem is, as far as I can tell (and that's not all that far) a totally separate issue. It has something to do with some OTA data streams causing buffers to overflow. Therefore, even with a brand new HR10, it is very likely that you will experience the audio dropout problem if you let it upgrade to 6.3a.

When my HR10 upgraded to 6.3a, audio dropouts were the only problem I ran into. I only ran it for a couple of days though, then rolled back to 3.1.5f.

If I were you, I would NOT let your new HR10 upgrade until you see reports here that a new software revision has been released, and there are reports that it has cured the problem. To do otherwise is just rolling the dice.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

tivoupgrade said:


> I'm not saying that the software doesn't have problems - it does - but when it comes to this kind of hardware instability, I'd suggest that if it were buggy software that were causing it, the problem would be much wider-spread than it is.


Regarding just the audio dropout issue, we've had reports here ranging from "DirecTV/TiVo are aware of it" to "DirecTV says they've never heard this complaint before." Would you happen to have information that would substantiate the reports that they know about it, and/or are working on a fix?


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## ctromp (Sep 26, 2006)

videojanitor said:


> If I were you, I would NOT let your new HR10 upgrade until you see reports here that a new software revision has been released, and there are reports that it has cured the problem. To do otherwise is just rolling the dice.


Gotcha. My phone line is unplugged.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

I am still trying to figure out if this upgrade is worth the $250-300 it will take for me to feel comfortable with allowing it to happen. 

For me to upgrade, I would want to remove both drives from both my upgraded HR10's and image them over to the new drives. I would then put the new drives back in the machines and let them upgrade and still have my original drives as a safety net.

My original machine has been through the upgrade process from d to f so both partitions should be good. My newer machine came with f so I don't know.

So I think I would rather wait until the work a few more bugs out of the HR20's and activate OTA than worry about 6.3. After all, I have been without it for 2.5 years, so what's another 3-6 months?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

videojanitor said:


> Regarding just the audio dropout issue, we've had reports here ranging from "DirecTV/TiVo are aware of it" to "DirecTV says they've never heard this complaint before." Would you happen to have information that would substantiate the reports that they know about it, and/or are working on a fix?


I've traded emails with a Customer Support Engineer at DirecTV .... they're aware of the problem and are working with Tivo's engineers to diagnose and fix the problem. I pointed him to your excellent diagnosis based on your experiments with your Fox Station. No estimate of timeframe yet, though.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

litzdog911 said:


> I pointed him to your excellent diagnosis based on your experiments with your Fox Station. No estimate of timeframe yet, though.


Hey thanks! Hopefully my little test will prove to be of value. As long as I know the problem has been acknowledged and that there are people working on it, that's all I need.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

stevel said:


> What I find fascinating about all this is that DirecTV had 6.3 in-house for more than a year before releasing it (from an impeccable source.) It is all very puzzling.


And even worse is the fact that it was supposed to be coming out, then they suddenly delyaed it for 6-8 weeks due to a some major bug they found. How major of a bug was it that caused them to abort the rollout when they totally missed the problems peopel are experiencing? Surely the boxes had to be catching fire in the lab or something.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

The dropouts became so frequent while I was watching the Bucs/Giants game on FOX, that I called in again last night, and got the same "well 6.3a was the fix for those audio dropouts, there shouldn't be a problem anymore...."

They transferred me to advanced tech, and the guy spent almost 20 minutes on the phone with me documenting everything in an email to the 'higher ups.'

I explained how I had 3 HR10's, with only 1 of 'em having 6.3a (other 2 unplugged), and if I put all 3 on the same channel, the only one that gets the dropout is the one with 6.3a.

He didn't know if they were aware of the problem or not ...there's nothing in their notes that says they are. So this post from Litzdog is good to hear:



> I've traded emails with a Customer Support Engineer at DirecTV .... they're aware of the problem and are working with Tivo's engineers to diagnose and fix the problem. I pointed him to your excellent diagnosis based on your experiments with your Fox Station. No estimate of timeframe yet, though.


.



epeters said:


> just got off the phone with "Anna" from Customer support who told me that the problems(8-10 second audio dropouts) was reported a month ago and was fixed with 6.3 I told her the problems started with 6.3 she said that "oh, yes that was 6.3, 6.3a was just released and that fixed it !! I told her that, no, 6.3a was also bad and she said, and I quote, "Just as we've been talking, the fix came up on my screen...you need to re-auto-detect the satellites." (some procedure in the main menus that warns you not to do without Customer service recommendation; it involved hitting the thumbs down button three times and pressing enter. Did it and know I'll have to wait this evening to see if the dropouts continue.
> 
> Doesn't sound like a fix to me. She said to call 1-800-824-9081
> if the problem continues.
> ...


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Lee L said:


> And even worse is the fact that it was supposed to be coming out, then they suddenly delyaed it for 6-8 weeks due to a some major bug they found. How major of a bug was it that caused them to abort the rollout when they totally missed the problems peopel are experiencing? Surely the boxes had to be catching fire in the lab or something.


It was a very major bug. It could not detect the 72.5 degree satellite. Who knows how much OTA testing they did in the lab.


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## merlin803 (Dec 11, 2005)

Sir_whinealot said:


> The dropouts became so frequent while I was watching the Bucs/Giants game on FOX, that I called in again last night, and got the same "well 6.3a was the fix for those audio dropouts, there shouldn't be a problem anymore...."
> 
> They transferred me to advanced tech, and the guy spent almost 20 minutes on the phone with me documenting everything in an email to the 'higher ups.'
> 
> ...


I got the same line about 6.3a being the "fix" for the audio drop outs.

Even though the HR20 has it's own issues, at least DTV is supporting it (as proven by the near weekly updates they release).

We can't even get them to admit the problems with 6.3a let alone give us an ETA on when/if it will be fixed.

So, I took the oppurtunity to get a free HR20 along with $20/month programming credits for a year.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bwaldron said:


> It's the DVR elves!


Step 1: Deliver DVRs!

Step 3: Make profits!


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Step 1: Deliver DVRs!
> 
> Step 3: Make profits!


The funny thing is not only did the previously out of stock HR10 show up on Friday....but another one showed up on my doorstep on Saturday.


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## gstahl (Nov 29, 2002)

I too have had OTA audio issue and freeze ups/reboots since installing 6.3a

The tier 2 TS suggested unplugging it for 5 minutes then letting it reboot and if that did not fix it then do a complete restore of the drive. Luckily, the shut down, wait and reboot seemed to fix my rebooting issue. The audio (which was not discussed at the time) is still a very annoying issue.


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## judson_west (Nov 10, 2001)

I can see that this is going to be a very tough issue for TiVo to resolve. Unlike the last issue with the 6.3 software upgrade, whereby it was not seeing one of the satellites, everybody was reporting the same failure. Here there are at least as many people reporting audio dropouts and reboots as those that don't have any failures. In fact, I believe there are more 6.3a installations out there that have no problems than those that do. 

Like tivoupgrade said, updates DO cause failures not directly related to the upgraded software but by the nature of the way the update is installed. I will be very surprised if 6.3b comes out from TiVo anytime soon.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

judson_west said:


> Like tivoupgrade said, updates DO cause failures not directly related to the upgraded software but by the nature of the way the update is installed.


Has it been determined that any particular method of upgrading has been trouble free?


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## Seminole (Oct 27, 2003)

I think D* wants everyone to drop Tivo and go with their box that is why we are all having issues.


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## SHOMan (Jun 2, 2005)

judson_west said:


> I can see that this is going to be a very tough issue for TiVo to resolve. Unlike the last issue with the 6.3 software upgrade, whereby it was not seeing one of the satellites, everybody was reporting the same failure. Here there are at least as many people reporting audio dropouts and reboots as those that don't have any failures. In fact, I believe there are more 6.3a installations out there that have no problems than those that do.
> 
> Like tivoupgrade said, updates DO cause failures not directly related to the upgraded software but by the nature of the way the update is installed. I will be very surprised if 6.3b comes out from TiVo anytime soon.


I disagree about the patterns we are seeing. It is clear that those recording OTA have a specific type of problem, several seconds of no audio, clear picture, then slight pixelation and return of audio. This has been documented by those who can retrieve the log on playback. Ring buffer overflow.

Those people who are not reporting dropouts may simply be watching stations other than Fox or CBS (those networks have the highest number of dropouts). It is easy to duplicate this issue by recording an evening of Fox programming. It should also be easy to look at the logs and see the pattern of behavior surrounding these dropouts.

Reboots are another story. I had a couple, then I unplugged the box and plugged it back in and no more reboots. It appears that those with reboots who unplug the box have seen the same relief from the problem I have seen. I do believe that there is more than one flavor of reboots, and this will be harder to diagnose.

I have had plenty of hours of viewing without issue since the upgrade. That said, when the problems happen, they appear to fit the pattern described by the majority of people. It is just that the current set of problems is not as obvious to everyone as the inability to see a sat.


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## WhyMe (Jul 12, 2005)

There is also people out there that think it is bad ota reception. My brother has had 6.3a for about a month, I talked to him yesterday and asked if he had any problems with the upgrade and he said no. I then asked if he had 8-10 seconds dropouts and he said yes but thought it was just bad reception. I had them for one day and went back to 3.1....


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Seminole said:


> I think D* wants everyone to drop Tivo and go with their box that is why we are all having issues.


I'm pretty sure Rupert Murdoch is a Gator....

... seriously, its pretty clear that there are plenty of folks at DirecTV cursing the fact that ongoing support of these products is necessary. I suspect that the technical folks aren't the problem, but that management puts as little resource as possible on it. They probably are not unhappy to see folks with the TiVo platforms struggling and are hoping that folks will give up and submit to the NDS hardware (I wonder how many folks are giving up and just going to Comcast...)


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> They probably are not unhappy to see folks with the TiVo platforms struggling and are hoping that folks will give up and submit to the NDS hardware (I wonder how many folks are giving up and just going to Comcast...)


That would be stupid, indeed. I am nearing the end of my latest commitment, and would be at least as likely to move to another service provider as I would to the HR20, more so the longer it takes to get 6.3b out. The lack of obvious effort they put into testing the 6.3 upgrade (not to mention the fact that it should have been delivered last year) is not heartening. Nor is the fact that their own DVR is not exactly proving reliable. Tivo's role in the 6.3a debacle doesn't give me warm fuzzies either (I know they'd rather we give up, change providers, and buy a S3.)


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## GotATiVoToo (Apr 20, 2002)

To answer tivoupgrade's question, I'm giving up and going to Comcast.

I spoke with an extremely helpful person at DirecTV today who, truth be told, totally bent over backwards to help me out. But, there's just no good solution that gets me back on the air promptly. They have no HR20's in stock (she said they are weeks if not months backordered). I don't think they had HR10's in stock either.

And, after all that is said and done, I still get a fossilized software version (compared to the S3), no remote scheduling, etc, and zero prospect of ever having more HD channels available to me.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

I think the situation generally stinks. I honestly think people at TiVo care, but they do not own the customer relationship - DirecTV does, and its DirecTV that is ultimately responsible for the final releases of the software.

I know that there are good-hearted people at TiVo that would rather not see DirecTV/TiVo advocates suffer, but at the end of the day, they have to do what they are paid to do and I think you are right; at this stage they would rather see someone toss a DirecTV TiVo and go to Comcast with a Series3 because that is how they will make money and get you back as a customer.

GotATiVoToo - we still have a supply of new HR10-250's in stock; I'm not pushing them here, but its an alternative to consider.

As for my own personal rig... I still use my HR10-250 (its still running 3.1.5 with no updates) which is networked. I have actually been considering the move to Comcast, myself. I will probably end up with both for awhile. I think that DirecTV is being somewhat complacent with the TiVo advocates but I also think that we don't represent the mass market they are pursuing and they are willing to accept the loss of many of us to Comcast in exchange for the money they are 'saving' by doing things in the way they are doing. In short - we are not mainstream...


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

I have two of the Sony HD DVRs on the way. I bought them through Ebay from a company clsoing them out. There are dozens for sale at any time. They go for around $200. No, it's not Tivo software, but they have 30 second skip. They also don't cost $800 and there is no monthly fee. Most of what I watch is received OTA. After 10 years as a customer, my days with Directv are numbered.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> I think the situation generally stinks. I honestly think people at TiVo care, but they do not own the customer relationship - DirecTV does, and its DirecTV that is ultimately responsible for the final releases of the software.


Understood and agreed; it does color perceptions of both parties, though.



tivoupgrade said:


> I know that there are good-hearted people at TiVo that would rather not see DirecTV/TiVo advocates suffer, but at the end of the day, they have to do what they are paid to do and I think you are right; at this stage they would rather see someone toss a DirecTV TiVo and go to Comcast with a Series3 because that is how they will make money and get you back as a customer.


Sure, but a buggy 6.3 using their software is not the best way to get me to run out and drop $800...plus the subscription fee 



tivoupgrade said:


> As for my own personal rig... I still use my HR10-250 (its still running 3.1.5 with no updates) which is networked. I have actually been considering the move to Comcast, myself. I will probably end up with both for awhile. I think that DirecTV is being somewhat complacent with the TiVo advocates but I also think that we don't represent the mass market they are pursuing and they are willing to accept the loss of many of us to Comcast in exchange for the money they are 'saving' by doing things in the way they are doing. In short - we are not mainstream...


No, we aren't. And that's why I am ultimately rooting for Tivo to have success with the S3 -- I really want to see an independent DVR have success, faint though the hopes may be.

Unfortunately, as an out-of-market sports fan, right now D* has the best mix of content I want. At this point, I am holding with my (3.1.5f) HR10-250 and am just going to watch things play out for a while...things are kinda unsettled in the HD and DVR sphere right now. I have no need for MPEG4 locals, and have no desire to lock myself into a new 2-year commitment.

FIOS may be in my future, or even a return to cable 15 years after ditching them for a BUD.


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## Titon (Oct 21, 2006)

> I have two of the Sony HD DVRs on the way. I bought them through Ebay from a company clsoing them out. There are dozens for sale at any time. They go for around $200. No, it's not Tivo software, but they have 30 second skip. They also don't cost $800 and there is no monthly fee. Most of what I watch is received OTA. After 10 years as a customer, my days with Directv are numbered.


Wish it was that simple for me. This unit does not work with D* but if it did i would switch in a second!


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## Seminole (Oct 27, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> I'm pretty sure Rupert Murdoch is a Gator....
> 
> ... seriously, its pretty clear that there are plenty of folks at DirecTV cursing the fact that ongoing support of these products is necessary. I suspect that the technical folks aren't the problem, but that management puts as little resource as possible on it. They probably are not unhappy to see folks with the TiVo platforms struggling and are hoping that folks will give up and submit to the NDS hardware (I wonder how many folks are giving up and just going to Comcast...)


All the more reason to dislike Ruppert.

Well as I have stated before they will loose me as soon as Fios is available in my area I am sick and tired of D* and have been with them since 96.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Step 1: Deliver DVRs!
> 
> Step 3: Make profits!


Not sure what you mean by this. DirecTV has negative retained earnings on their balance sheet. So in that sense, even though DirecTV has posted some recent profits, they have not yet filled up the gigantic hole of negative profits (losses) accumulated during their first eight or so years of operation. So they haven't made any money.

Secondly, as a DirecTV customer, employee, or shareholder, you'd better hope that DirecTV eventually does make a profit. They are a public company, and unlike the government, they do have to balance their books.

Profits are not evil. They are what drives our economy. No one makes profits in the long run by skipping step 2.

DirecTV didn't have to spend a nickel on software upgrades on a defunct product (at least from the perspective of DirecTV). The software upgrade has bugs--somewhat predictably. But DirecTV hasn't washed their hands of the issue. They are working on a fix, which takes time to do correctly. If they "fix" a bug, they want to make sure they don't create another bug in the process.


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Jeepers ShiningBengal - I don't think TonyD79 ever thought about that.

The point Tony was making is that DirecTV clearly thinks its only obligations are to make hardware and then profits will magically appear. He's clearly insinuating there are a couple of missing steps and caveats like "Hardware must be reliable" and "Customers must get reasonable customer service", etc. 

No one is saying profits are evil, just that they do not result if companies fail to deliver on their promises. It's not enough to say "I gave you some hardware, what more do you want?"

The long, long delays in getting 6.3, a buggy release itself, followed by a quick, but still buggy fix (6.3a) and no communication from DirecTV does not inspire confidence.

Reading the DBSTalk message boards about the near weekly "fixes" for the HR20 doesn't inspire confidence from me either. 

DVRs have been around for at least 6 years now, with dual tuner HD DVRs for at least 3 of those years. That DirecTV can't get it right on either a Tivo- or NDS-based platform speaks poorly of just about everything they "owe" customers.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Well said


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

ShiningBengal said:


> *They are working on a fix*, which takes time to do correctly. If they "fix" a bug, they want to make sure they don't create another bug in the process.


Has this been confirmed or is it surmised at this point?


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

denary said:


> Has this been confirmed or is it surmised at this point?


My Customer Support Engineering contact at DirecTV confirms that they're working with Tivo's software engineers on an update, but no time frame is known yet.


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## FourFourSeven (Jan 3, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> My Customer Support Engineering contact at DirecTV confirms that they're working with Tivo's software engineers on an update, but no time frame is known yet.


Thank you for this confirmation - I can deal with the problem short-term if I know a fix is on the way...


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

FourFourSeven said:


> Thank you for this confirmation - I can deal with the problem short-term if I know a fix is on the way...


Let's just hope it's only a few weeks, and not months. Keeping the pressure on DirecTV can only help.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> Let's just hope it's only a few weeks, and not months. Keeping the pressure on DirecTV can only help.


+1


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## rod456 (Oct 23, 2006)

They are making an effort. I have passed a few emails to tech support with information regarding my system setup, problems I have seen, etc. They have attempted to call me three times in the past two days. Twice at home (during my work hours when I wasn't home) and once at the office. So, they are aware of the problem and seem to working the issue. 

I think everyone should write an email to D stating the facts, mention this site and dbstalk.com and ask that your problem get passed up to higher tech support. 

Remember, the squeaky wheel always gets the most grease........


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## altan (Jan 5, 2003)

rod456 said:


> I think everyone should write an email to D stating the facts, mention this site and dbstalk.com and ask that your problem get passed up to higher tech support.


What is an email address at DTV that results in something other than a canned response?

... Altan


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## rcbray (Mar 31, 2004)

ShiningBengal said:


> Not sure what you mean by this. DirecTV has negative retained earnings on their balance sheet. So in that sense, even though DirecTV has posted some recent profits, they have not yet filled up the gigantic hole of negative profits (losses) accumulated during their first eight or so years of operation. So they haven't made any money.


Simply means their liabilities are greater than their assets. Yes, that normally means they are showing losses on their income statement.


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## rod456 (Oct 23, 2006)

altan said:


> What is an email address at DTV that results in something other than a canned response?
> 
> ... Altan


Yes, I did get a canned response back from my first email to them, but immediately replied to their email with the following:

Thanks for the "CANNED" reply. I was hoping the DirecTV would acknowledge that they and Tivo have a problem with 6.3a on the HD10-250 and are working on a solution for their customers, but I guess not. That is poor customer service is all I can say. Maybe it is time to convert to cable again, they seem to have great HD these days........

These problems did not exist with Tivo Ver 3.1 on the HD10-250. I was not asking to talk with someone, I wanted to know if you were aware of the problem you have caused your customers and what your action plan might be to mitigate these problems.


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