# Insane policy for Lifetime Activation



## ml_nelson (Jan 12, 2008)

I was about to pull the trigger on Tivo's offer for $100 off the lifetime activation which normally costs $399. They offered me $299 as a promotion. On the surface it seems cost effective as that is a bit less than 2 years of the normal month-to-month, but there is a serious hitch.

If your Tivo craps out, you can by a factory refurb for $150. That in itself is not bad. BUT..... There is a $200 fee to transfer your Lifetime Activation to the refurb unit!

You've got to be kidding! The "fee" is 2/3 the value of what I transfer!


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

Most Tivo failures are due to the hard drive, which is a DIY fix, costing much less than $150. Then there would be no need to transfer your lifetime.

For me, lifetimes have always worked out best. But I agree that Tivo charges to much for them and should get those that own multiple boxes a much better deal.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

The entire point of Product Lifetime Service is that it lasts for lifetime of that particular box. In reality the $199 transfer fee is a great deal, in total with a refurb you would pay $350 for something that would cost you $700. You need to think of Product Lifetime Service not as service, but as a special add-on to your current Tivo that lets you not pay for service. There are definitely trade-offs, but in general the Product Lifetime Service is worth it, especially if you are willing to repair your Tivo yourself or have DVRupgrade/weaKnees do it for you. Also note that now available to you if it is a new activation at least is a 3-year warranty for $40. You wouldn't have to pay the fees during those 3-years...

Edit: I just remembered, I believed Tivo's policy on Product Lifetime Services is that for the first 3 years you don't have to pay for the $199 transfer fee. Unless this policy has changed, then really you have almost nothing to lose as paying monthly/yearly would cost you at least $299 over those three years. It also somewhat makes the warranty moot as well.


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## xnappo (May 31, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> In reality the $199 transfer fee is a great deal, in total with a refurb you would pay $350 for something that would cost you $700.


Yeah, great deal until you compare it to the costs of alternatives!

xnappo


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

xnappo said:


> Yeah, great deal until you compare it to the costs of alternatives!


I got a great offer on a BMW, but it turns out I had to pay for gas too! Not only that, once the warranty is out I'm on the hook for repairs.

Walking is much cheaper.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

The OP made a great point. Lifetime service is tied to the box. Tivo has a policy of giving a customer a refurbished box in exchange for the broken box. The broken box is fixed and given to another customer. There wouldn't be an issue if tivo fixed the customers box and then returned the bos to the sdame customer. Should a customer be penalized because tivo gives the fixed box to a different customer?

PP are correct. The only way this deal makes sense is if you're prepared to do your own repairs. Hard drive and power supply are the two most common issues and both can be repaired by the customer.

People want to use a car analagy? You need new spark plugs but your BMW delaer wants to put a rebuilt engine in your car.


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## xnappo (May 31, 2007)

SullyND said:


> I got a great offer on a BMW, but it turns out I had to pay for gas too! Not only that, once the warranty is out I'm on the hook for repairs.
> 
> Walking is much cheaper.


This was true 5 years ago, it is not anymore. The Satellite and cable co boxes are now almost caught up, there is Moxi, and HTPC now works very well. It is now a choice between a BMW, a Lexus or an Audi. The BMW may still be the best, but not enough to justify 2x the cost.

I like TiVo - but they need to adjust their business model. I am hopeful that the cost to build a Premiere is such that they can.

xnappo


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

lew said:


> The OP made a great point. Lifetime service is tied to the box. Tivo has a policy of giving a customer a refurbished box in exchange for the broken box. The broken box is fixed and given to another customer. There wouldn't be an issue if tivo fixed the customers box and then returned the bos to the sdame customer. Should a customer be penalized because tivo gives the fixed box to a different customer?


What obligation is Tivo under to do anything after the box breaks and is out of warranty? Maybe what you are suggesting is that Tivo should be a repair center. Tivo chooses not to be and they are under no obligation to be either. There are 3rd party repair centers you can go through if you would like to salvage your Tivo. Also, as was mentioned it is pretty easy to fix the two main problems that go wrong yourself (harddrives and power supplies). You have to remember something about the box you send into Tivo. There is no guarantee that the box can be fixed, so it isn't necessarily given to someone else. Also, Tivo chooses to give you an already repaired box so that they can provide the service faster. As for being penalized, how are you being penalized? Tivo could just tell you that they won't do anything for you at all. This is not a warranty repair, it is a special offer they are making you to attempt to keep you as a customer. In reality they are doing you a favor, not penalizing you. Maybe the favor isn't good enough for you, but of course that is your decision.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Different people can have different opinons. For years tivo had no charge to transfer LS to a replacement box. The fine print gave tivo the right to charge a transfer fee. Made sense since tivo, not the customer, made the decision to ship refurbished boxes instead of returning the customers own box.

*I don't see how $199 charge for something that used to be free can be considered a "great deal"*

I agreed with the PP. This isn't an issue for customers who are willing and able to do their own repairs. A "regular" customer will wind up paying $350 for a new hard drive. Not a good deal.



socrplyr said:


> What obligation is Tivo under to do anything after the box breaks and is out of warranty? Maybe what you are suggesting is that Tivo should be a repair center. Tivo chooses not to be and they are under no obligation to be either. There are 3rd party repair centers you can go through if you would like to salvage your Tivo. Also, as was mentioned it is pretty easy to fix the two main problems that go wrong yourself (harddrives and power supplies). You have to remember something about the box you send into Tivo. There is no guarantee that the box can be fixed, so it isn't necessarily given to someone else. Also, Tivo chooses to give you an already repaired box so that they can provide the service faster. As for being penalized, how are you being penalized? Tivo could just tell you that they won't do anything for you at all. This is not a warranty repair, it is a special offer they are making you to attempt to keep you as a customer. In reality they are doing you a favor, not penalizing you. Maybe the favor isn't good enough for you, but of course that is your decision.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

lew said:


> Different people can have different opinons. For years tivo had no charge to transfer LS to a replacement box. The fine print gave tivo the right to charge a transfer fee. Made sense since tivo, not the customer, made the decision to ship refurbished boxes instead of returning the customers own box.
> 
> *I don't see how $199 charge for something that used to be free can be considered a "great deal"*
> 
> I agreed with the PP. This isn't an issue for customers who are willing and able to do their own repairs. A "regular" customer will wind up paying $350 for a new hard drive. Not a good deal.


You missed the point. Tivo is under no obligation to do anything. Yes they used to transfer it for free, but guess what that was the past and makes absolutely no sense. If it should be free, then it isn't PLS anymore, it is just LS. That isn't what Tivo offered you when you bought PLS. If you send your Tivo in because it is broken, the product lifetime is up and if you want service again it is $399. They are nice and give you a break on that. To keep things simple they treat all out of warranty repairs the same.

The real issue here is that you don't think it is a good deal. That is an opinion and will vary from consumer to consumer and situation to situation. However, with this offer, Tivo is providing a service which they are under no obligation to do.

Like I said there are plenty of other options for getting your Tivo repaired. Is the $149+$199 a great deal? Sometimes, especially when your motherboard is dead. Others, definitely not. Either way your device is dead. If you replace the harddrive and copy Tivo's software to the new one, is that an illegal repair considering copyright law? I don't know the answer to that question, but it would probably be grounds for voiding the original PLS. They don't void it. So again, they are doing you a favor.

Side Note:
Tivo's policies with PLS are very lenient, which leads consumer to believe that they deserve more. Personally, I believe that Tivo should do away with service contracts and just charge $700 for the box from the get go. Then if someone sends their box in for service, the repair fee is $350. If you think that is too high, fine; but it is simple and there are no ambiguities. There are a lot of business reasons why Tivo doesn't sell like this, so obviously they trump the simplicity model.

Isn't also still Tivo's policy to not charge the $199 for the first 3 years of PLS?


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

First of all, let's get this straight, they aren't doing anyone "Favors" as they ultimately make money off you continuing to use the box. You fanboys get me laughing everytime, lol.

The real argument seems to be, is lifetime YOUR LIFETIME, or the boxes. Personally, I would never buy a lifetime warranty on something they could remotely break without my knowledge. But that's off topic.

But to that end.. if Tivo said the lifetime was tied to the box.. it is tied to that box. I personally think it should be tied to the user and thus the cost should be much more. But as it stands.. you are buying it for 1 box.. and that is it. The fact you can transfer is nice.. the fact that Tivo gouges you to transfer.. well... that is life.

As for that BMW.. it's a nice car.. I still don't understand how any $5 part turns into a $50 part at the dealer though.. But that is another converstation.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

bschuler2007 said:


> .


I agree with you 95%. The only thing that you said wrong is that Tivo isn't doing you a favor. Once your box breaks, if you want service it is $399. They offer it to you for $199. That is a favor. I say this not as a Tivo fanboy, but as a practical matter. People fail to realize all the things they are already being offered and just want more.

Oh an as for the BMW parts pricing, years ago Honda wanted $60 for a cup holder that was just a piece of plastic on an Accord.


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## gthassell (Apr 22, 2003)

Another solution is to buy the 3-year warranty, and be sure to purchase on a card which extends the warranty (like Amex). Then, Tivo will transfer the lifetime at no additional charge to your replacement box.

It does not cost that much for added insurance / piece of mind.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> lifetime warranty


it is lifetime service and nothing to do with any warranty. That distinction seems to be a souce of the confusion in this thread.

That said - Moxi has no service fee of any sort. Anyone know what the warranty is on the Moxi?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> That said - Moxi has no service fee of any sort. Anyone know what the warranty is on the Moxi?


Unfortunately, I believe it is the same 90 day-Labor; 1 Year-Parts scenario as TiVo. Of course there is no transfer of service involved when having an out of warranty box repaired, but I think the jury is still out on how reliable the boxes are, and just what their out of warranty service procedures and costs are.

Would be nice to know.

Edit: I just called Moxi to inquire. I gave up after waiting 10 minutes for a human being to answer the phone. After 20 prompts to press one to leave a message, that is what I finally decided to do. It disconnected my call.

What is with companies these days? They can't hire a kid for 10 bucks an hour to answer the damn phone? Another scary thought is the contact form on their web site appears to be broken (at least in my browser). When submitting the form I get an error link from a marketing company url indicating that I am already subscribed to their list!

So my first experience with Moxi is that I could not contact them in any form. Incredibly sad. Sure hope their boxes work better than their office systems; but they may have just lost a prospective customer.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

I thought if the box broke out of warranty that tivo you would have to pay to have it fixed, but that you would at least keep your lifetime service?


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

wp746911 said:


> I thought if the box broke out of warranty that tivo you would have to pay to have it fixed, but that you would at least keep your lifetime service?


That is somewhat true, but Tivo doesn't offer the service to have your box repaired. You can do that elsewhere however.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

The Moxi and Moxi mates have a one year warranty.

You can easily get this to two years using a credit card like American Express that will double your warranty.

After your warranty expires, should your Moxi experience issues, it is a $75 fee plus the cost of parts to repair your Moxi.

THERE IS NO TRANSFER COST... because all Moxi have built in subscriptions.

So there you have it...

*Moxi $75 and parts
Tivo is $149 plus $199 transfer
*
Moxi is better here.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> What obligation is Tivo under to do anything after the box breaks and is out of warranty?


What obligation is the customer under to purchase a Tivo? The informed customer pays attention to the fine print (as the OP did) and may decide against purchasing the product because he doesn't like the risk of ending up with lifetime service on a dead box. If Tivo builds a reliable product, then they should have no problem extending the lifetime service to refurbed replacement units as replacement should only happen in the exceptional case.

I've owned Tivos all the way back to the original Phillips series 1 (back in 1999 I think). Almost all of the failures have been hard-drive related and were easy for a tech-savvy person to fix. I believe the S1 had two instances of failed drives that needed replacement over a ten year period; that's not bad. My S2 box also had an incident of HD failure over its lifetime. Hard drive failures present a great opportunity to upgrade your storage at the same time (turn a negative experience into a positive one) and there are plenty of places on the web that can do the installation for those who are not capable of doing it themselves.

I do feel that Tivo must change its ways if it is to continue to dominate the market in the face of new competition. I would have been an early adopter of the Premiere but I'm currently holding back my purchase for a number of reasons, and may very likely end up flopping over to the competition.

As an aside, Tivo (and other DVR makers) should really make the hard drive replacement process easier for the user. They should put enough support in the firmware (flash, etc) so that the user can drop in a fresh hard drive, and the thing could bootstrap itself, download its OS, and prepare the drive for use. That would probably mitigate 90% of the repair issues on the box.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> What is with companies these days? They can't hire a kid for 10 bucks an hour to answer the damn phone?


Benefits and healthcare.

I feel the same way as you, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. Humans are too expensive and too risky. Unfortunately, it's more profitable and much less risky to let a machine do the work and lose the occasional customer. It's too bad, because there are plenty of people out there who'd like that $10/hr job.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

fatlard said:


> The Moxi and Moxi mates have a one year warranty.


This isn't entirely true. Moxi's warranty is available at:

http://moxi.com/us/support/MC4R/Moxi_HD_DVR_advisory_doc.pdf

It states 90 days-labor, 1 year-parts just like TiVo. It also states that within the one year period the labor is a standard fee.

For units older than one year, it specifically states "please call ARRIS's Customer Support at 866-969-6694 for information about out of warranty exchanges or repairs."

Problem is they don't answer their phone, voice mail hung up on me before getting to an actual prompt, and the contact form on their web site is broken.

So out of warranty repairs are still a question in my mind.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

smbaker said:


> What obligation is the customer under to purchase a Tivo? The informed customer pays attention to the fine print (as the OP did) and may decide against purchasing the product because he doesn't like the risk of ending up with lifetime service on a dead box. If Tivo builds a reliable product, then they should have no problem extending the lifetime service to refurbed replacement units as replacement should only happen in the exceptional case.


That's not the service that Tivo offers. Tivo offers the PLS based on a price that relies on the box going out of service in an expected number of years. This could be a box failure, but it could also just be the box is just not used any longer. You should not be expecting your electronics to work forever. Really what you are saying is that you want LS, not PLS. The contract and the explicit use of the term product means that once the product breaks (which it will eventually) it is done. If they allow free service transfers to another box, that is no longer what was dictated in the PLS. If you don't like PLS, then pay monthly/yearly. If you don't like paying for the service then buy a Moxi or setup a WMC box. We can theorize all day long on ways that Tivo could make their offerings more consumer friendly, but that would most likely make them cost more. Then you would complain that Tivo service costs too much. It is what it is. If you want to try to make it better write a letter to Tivo. Writing a message here because you fail to understand the terms of the agreement is a waste. The service is for that box and that box alone.



smbaker said:


> I've owned Tivos all the way back to the original Phillips series 1 (back in 1999 I think). Almost all of the failures have been hard-drive related and were easy for a tech-savvy person to fix. I believe the S1 had two instances of failed drives that needed replacement over a ten year period; that's not bad. My S2 box also had an incident of HD failure over its lifetime. Hard drive failures present a great opportunity to upgrade your storage at the same time (turn a negative experience into a positive one) and there are plenty of places on the web that can do the installation for those who are not capable of doing it themselves.


I agree and I have mentioned them in earlier posts.



smbaker said:


> I do feel that Tivo must change its ways if it is to continue to dominate the market in the face of new competition. I would have been an early adopter of the Premiere but I'm currently holding back my purchase for a number of reasons, and may very likely end up flopping over to the competition.


Umm what do they dominate? What ways does it need to change?



smbaker said:


> As an aside, Tivo (and other DVR makers) should really make the hard drive replacement process easier for the user. They should put enough support in the firmware (flash, etc) so that the user can drop in a fresh hard drive, and the thing could bootstrap itself, download its OS, and prepare the drive for use. That would probably mitigate 90% of the repair issues on the box.


I agree with this 100%, but they get to decide what product they offer. I did write about a nearly identical method as a product suggestion to Tivo. Maybe you should as well, as it gets nowhere here on these forums. The more suggestions they get like this, the more likely they are to implement it. However, I doubt it would ever come to pass.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> That's not the service that Tivo offers. Tivo offers the PLS based on a price that relies on the box going out of service in an expected number of years. This could be a box failure, but it could also just be the box is just not used any longer.


Bleh. That doesn't inspire confidence in the consumer in buying the product. It's one thing if a product is replaced by something faster and better (take for example the CPU manufacturers and their variety of planned obsolescence), but it's something else if the manufacturer is counting on failure. Failure is how the Japanese auto-makers ended up capturing the US auto market (and also how they're on the path to giving it back).



> Umm what do they dominate? What ways does it need to change?


Tivo dominates the non-cableco DVR market, don't they? Things Tivo needs to change:

* monthly service price point is too high
* lifetime service price point is too high, and lacks transferability
* lack of innovation (look at Moxi's "Moxi Mates", etc)
* lack of quality control on Tivo Premiere / rush of unprepared product to market
* lack of service to justify monthly cost
* difficulty upgrading drives / purposeful obfuscation on external HD upgrades

Those are just a few of my pet peeves with the current Tivo. All of these are avenues where a competitor can and will step in. In my opinion, Tivo seemed to get a bit complacent with its position in the market. They let the S3 stagnate with lack of development and the Premiere seems to offer little new other than poor performance. Hopefully the premiere's performance will improved, but it should not have been rushed to market in the shape it was in. The monthly fee is relatively high and doesn't provide the consumer with any perceived benefits other than guide data. Tivo should be partnering with content providers to provide some preceived value for that monthly fee.



> I agree with this 100%, but they get to decide what product they offer.


This is true, but they do so are their peril. They should be paying a lot more to what their competition is doing. Maybe the rush to market the Premiere means they are noticing the competition.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> So out of warranty repairs are still a question in my mind.


Here is their email response.

Thanks for your interest in Moxi. We received your email with your question and are happy to help.

The Moxi HD DVR is the best HD DVR on the planet because of its Emmy award-winning interface and it's suite of online networking and multimedia home entertainment capabilities. It's also the only HD DVR with no monthly fees. (check out our website - www.moxi.com - for full details).

The Moxi HD DVR comes with a full warranty similar to other products in your home such as your LCD or Plasma TV to cover against any unforeseen issues. MOXI has a standard one year warranty from the original ship date. During the first 90 days, your warranty covers both parts and labor. After 90 days, and for the remainder of the one year warranty period, your warranty covers parts.

Should your Moxi need repair, you simply call our Customer Service desk and they will provide the address of our US based service center to send the unit for repair. It couldn't be easier. Following the warranty expiration, the current repair cost will have a flat $75 labor fee plus parts. The life-time service is transferrable should you gift or sell your Moxi HD DVR as well as any remaining warranty.
We are available to answer any additional questions you might have and don't forget that the Moxi HD DVR has a 30 day money back guarantee.

Again, thanks for your interest and we look forward to you joining the Moxi family.

Best regards,

The Moxi team


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

smbaker said:


> Bleh. That doesn't inspire confidence in the consumer in buying the product. It's one thing if a product is replaced by something faster and better (take for example the CPU manufacturers and their variety of planned obsolescence), but it's something else if the manufacturer is counting on failure.


I don't necessarily disagree, but you must remember this is a service fee that replaces a monthly/yearly service fee. If the box didn't fail at some point, then the fee would have to be much higher for Tivo to see it as worthwhile to offer. In exchange for not paying monthly/yearly you take on the risk that the box fails. It is a decision that you must make. In reality I think it is best for those who decide to take on PLS to treat it as though the Tivo costs $700. The repair costs from Tivo are $150 for the first 3 years and $350 after that. It is what you get and not wholly unfair in my opinion.



smbaker said:


> Tivo dominates the non-cableco DVR market, don't they? Things Tivo needs to change:
> * monthly service price point is too high
> * lifetime service price point is too high, and lacks transferability
> * lack of innovation (look at Moxi's "Moxi Mates", etc)
> ...


Be careful with your statements here. It is clear you are mixing yourself up with the consumer in general. I won't comment on the direct shortcomings of Tivo's boxes, but I don't necessarily disagree with all of them. However, the cost of a Tivo is not out of line with the Moxi. It is more but there is no crazy difference. Tivo offers many more features than the Moxi currently does, but whether they are worth is is clearly a personal decision. You clearly want something the Tivo doesn't offer. Service provides the user with software updates; access to TTG, MRV, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, etc.; and guide data (which Tivo must purchase). If that isn't enough for you to justify spending on Tivo, fine. You don't like Tivo's business model, but it doesn't mean it is too expensive or unfair. It is just that way for you. Your biggest gripe seems to be price, but you must also remember that Tivo lost money last year. Maybe they need to charge more?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

fatlard said:


> After 90 days, and for the remainder of the one year warranty period, your warranty covers parts.
> 
> Should your Moxi need repair, you simply call our Customer Service desk and they will provide the address of our US based service center to send the unit for repair. It couldn't be easier. Following the warranty expiration, the current repair cost will have a flat $75 labor fee plus parts.


Not trying to pick nits here, the "flat rate" labor charge quoted above is indeed mentioned for units in the 91 day to one year time frame in the written warranty statement. But if you take the time to read the full statement, the wording is decidedly different for units outside of the one year term; asking you to call for a quote of the repair. If it is always flat rate plus parts, why the wording to call for a quoted figure after one year?

In this day and age I have been quoted many things by various CSR's that turned out not to be the case when the bill arrives. Because of this I have learned to only go by the letter of the agreement at hand, in writing. There is clearly a clause in that written agreement that indicates repair procedures for units over one year old differs from the procedure described above.

So you have an email address they actually respond to? Perhaps you could PM me with it so I can ask for clarification.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

fatlard said:


> The Moxi and Moxi mates have a one year warranty.
> 
> You can easily get this to two years using a credit card like American Express that will double your warranty.
> 
> ...


If your TiVo lifetime activation is under 3 years you only pay the $149 and Lifetime Service is xfered free


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> If your TiVo lifetime activation is under 3 years you only pay the $149 and Lifetime Service is xfered free


I have only mentioned that a couple of times in the thread... At least someone else has finally acknowledged it. Thank you.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

This is the current language in tivo's website.


> A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy  not the life of the subscriber. The Product Lifetime Subscription accompanies the TiVo DVR in case of ownership transfer. *The subscription remains in effect if the TiVo DVR needs to be repaired* or replaced due to a malfunction


Although I suspect the $199 transfer fee is still somewhere in the website I can't find it. I even did a google site search for $199.

JMO but the fact that tivo repairs units through an exchange program and charges $$$$ to transfer LS (under some circumstances) is something that should be disclosed.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> If the box didn't fail at some point, then the fee would have to be much higher for Tivo to see it as worthwhile to offer.


Higher yes, but how much higher? Given that the infrastructure for distributing the guide data is now entirely internet-based and leveraged off the customer's broadband service, I don't see much to justify the high cost. I've heard estimates that the cost of purchasing and delivering the guide data is as little as $0.50/month. I have no idea whether or not that's true, perhaps someone more familiar with Tivo's balance sheets can chime in.



> Be careful with your statements here. It is clear you are mixing yourself up with the consumer in general. I won't comment on the direct shortcomings of Tivo's boxes, but I don't necessarily disagree with all of them. However, the cost of a Tivo is not out of line with the Moxi. It is more but there is no crazy difference.


It's not the first time I've been accused (in this very forum!) of extending my opinion to cover consumers in general. I would argue that each one of the points that I listed could be made into a bullet item on the side of the product packaging and would help sell the DVR in the general case. Moxi in particular seems to be having a great time marketing the "no monthly fees" feature, even if they do build the cost-of-service into the up-front cost on the box. "No monthly fees" just sounds better, even at the cost of a higher up-front price point.



> Service provides the user with software updates; access to TTG, MRV, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, etc.; and guide data (which Tivo must purchase).


It looks like Tivo is already in second place to Moxi on MRV, with Moxi having an architecture that supports inexpensive Moxi Mates and a 3-tuner main unit. I don't see TTG as a fundamentally complex feature - does Moxi have that yet as well?

Isn't everyone and their brother building in support for Youtube, Netflix, etc., into their box these days? with no monthly fee? Even televisions are coming with some of these features built in. An example of where Tivo should move would be a partnership with these companies to provide some free content using these services, for example one free netflix rental per week or one free amazon rental per week as part of the Tivo monthly fee. Alternateively, Tivo could partner with the television networks directly to provide downloadable programming, like hulu.

I'm not necessarily arguing that a service-based approach is flawed, but that something more needs to be provided for that service. Guide data alone is not sufficient to justify $12.95. If $12.95/mo is necessary entirely to backend the cost of the hardware then Tivo needs to find cheaper hardware (which supposedly is what the Premiere is supposed to solve; we'll see if they're successful).



> Your biggest gripe seems to be price, but you must also remember that Tivo lost money last year. Maybe they need to charge more?


If they're still losing money at this point, then I honestly don't see how they're going to survive.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

solutionsetc said:


> In this day and age I have been quoted many things by various CSR's that turned out not to be the case when the bill arrives. Because of this I have learned to only go by the letter of the agreement at hand, in writing.


Case in point&#8230; my first TiVo is month to month. When I activated my second, I decided to go with yearly. In both cases I did this with the CSR as opposed to doing it online so I could ask the following questions:

1.) If I go with monthly or yearly, after my yearly commitment is up, can I then choose lifetime service if I want.

2.) If I go with the annual payment, after my one year commitment is up, can I revert to monthly without having to commit to another year of service?

The answer provided to both of these questions was yes.

Now today I go to switch my "about to expire annual service" to monthly (because I am not sure I want to be with TiVo for another year), and I am told that I have to commit to _*another*_ year, under rather severe penalties for early cancellation (50% more than the entire year's commitment), regardless of the annual or monthly plan.

So despite what I was told, TiVo has me on the hook for another year&#8230; and most likely my last. Go ahead TFBs, explain to me this is ethical behavior, designed in the best interest of TiVo's customers.

I swear I am going to start making any phone calls that require financial commitment using skype so that they can be recorded by me as well (after all, companies already inform you the call is being recorded via that BS line about quality assurance). Any lawyers here that can confirm that implied consent about them recording the call allows me to record it as well (I'm in California)? What do you want to bet that if I tell them _*I*_ am recording the call as well they won't want to talk to me.


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## armstrr (Oct 4, 2007)

one thing that deserves mention are the deals tivo will offer to those who have had a lifetime subscription for 1yr or more...with the premiere, they offered lifetime on a new premiere for 199... so if you work this into the equation, being an early adopter and putting lifetime on on a box immediately has benefits. another thing is the value of a used tivo with lifetime has an built in value since it the lifetime is attached to the box. you can recoup a portion of your investment by reselling, regifting etc. worth thinking about.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

lew said:


> This is the current language in tivo's website.
> 
> Although I suspect the $199 transfer fee is still somewhere in the website I can't find it. I even did a google site search for $199.
> 
> JMO but the fact that tivo repairs units through an exchange program and charges $$$$ to transfer LS (under some circumstances) is something that should be disclosed.


I thought that the $199 lifetime transfer charge applied only if the lifetime service has been in place more than three years. If so, lifetime service at $299 still guarantees you the cheapest available price for service. Assuming that the unit lasts for more than three years, it's still the best deal.

Honestly, I think TiVo should just drop the word "lifetime" and offer a specific model with "service included".


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Well the most popular DVR in the US, based on ownership, is the generic cable DVR. Perhaps TiVo should follow their lead? Tiny HD, no eSata, no internet functions, no MRV. Usually a whopping 20 hrs of HD programming available! But is is basically 'free' to the consumer with a sub cost of anywhere from $10-20 a month and they are everywhere. 

Imagine a stripped down TiVo like that, you get to use it for free (with qualifying commitment) and you will be charged if you ever tamper with the box. Would anyone on this site even get one (well many of you have had cable DVRs before, is there a reason you are not going back?)?

Use the best solution for you. Currently, my best solution is the S3 (as I own one and probably will not upgrade for awhile). Sure, I wish TiVo was an even better solution (and certainly I wish I could get more less), but it is the best for me right now. If you dislike the service agreement so much you have other options, TiVo is not the only solution.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

If you just let the annual service lapse it should automatically go to month to month with no input form you. Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong... 



solutionsetc said:


> Case in point my first TiVo is month to month. When I activated my second, I decided to go with yearly. In both cases I did this with the CSR as opposed to doing it online so I could ask the following questions:
> 
> 1.) If I go with monthly or yearly, after my yearly commitment is up, can I then choose lifetime service if I want.
> 
> ...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

daveak said:


> If you just let the annual service lapse it should automatically go to month to month with no input form you. Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong...


You're wrong. They will bill you for another year.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

daveak said:


> If you just let the annual service lapse it should automatically go to month to month with no input form you. Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong...


I'm not sure about an annual subscription, but my three year subscription just ended and it went to month to month.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

I never buy a lifetime. Waste of money. They are making "INTEREST" off your money.

When I put pen to paper. I can make more off saving my $399 and investing it wisely and paying the month to month. Then the money I so called "saved" by buying a lifetime up front. 

I can make $20 a month on my $399 investment. The money I make each month more than pays for the month to month fees.

TGC


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## caughey (May 26, 2007)

You're making 5% per month? I want in on that action.  

I hate paying bills and the thought of adding another one wasn't appealing, so I went for lifetime. That one payment was a little painful, but it's all healed up now and I have no regrets. To each his own. I wonder if there's a difference in perceived satisfaction for people paying monthly vs. lifetime.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> Honestly, I think TiVo should just drop the word "lifetime" and offer a specific model with "service included".


That is what Replay did and what Moxi does right now. Doesn't seem to sell as well as "lifetime". Many people don't read TOS ("fine print") and assume that lifetime is transferable. By the time they find out that it is not, it is too late. They also don't realise that there couldn't be a sub transfer fee if unit has to be replaced or repaired.

"Service included" model does not require to read TOS for an explanation and people can see it upfront that subscription dies with the unit. Looks like people don't like it as much as lifetime. And for the vendor it cuts on the source of revenue - they can not charge sub transfer fees.


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## jebrecht (Apr 7, 2010)

I agree lifetime is expensive! But worth it in the long run


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smbaker said:


> Isn't everyone and their brother building in support for Youtube, Netflix, etc., into their box these days?


everyone but Moxi


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> everyone but Moxi


I was biting my tongue not to state that. Moxi does have THE feature which he seems to be after, which is the moxi mate. It seems it would be a good fit for him.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

You are buying a service plan to provide guide data and etc from Tivo. It should be valid and transferable to any box for free. Just what does it cost Tivo to transfer the service? probably pennies. Anyone that buys lifetime needs to have his head examined IMO. That includes me, I fell for it too on one of my boxes.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

vurbano said:


> You are buying a service plan to provide guide data and etc from Tivo.


No, you are not.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

I had a S1 (which I'd probably still be using if I hadn't transferred it's lifetime to my Tivo HD) for over 7 years with lifetime. I have a S2 with lifetime going on 5 years, and my Tivo HD is going on 3 with lifetime. I'd hate to think how much money I'd have pissed away if I was paying monthly fees. I wouldn't even consider buying a Tivo without adding lifetime service to it.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I never buy a lifetime. Waste of money. They are making "INTEREST" off your money.
> 
> When I put pen to paper. I can make more off saving my $399 and investing it wisely and paying the month to month. Then the money I so called "saved" by buying a lifetime up front.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is necessarily all or nothing, but you don't have a rate of return that is attainable for most. It is based on the thought that you can gain 5% on money a month. The growth turns out to be 79.6% a year. Even Madoff didn't go that insane on his scheme (he promised returns around 15% I believe). Either you can plant money and grow it or ... With an attainable rate of return, lifetime pays for itself in less than 4 years when compared to a yearly price plan (just over 4 years when compared to the 3-yr plan). That of course relies on the assumption that your box doesn't die, but in the first 3 years if it does die the transfer is free... Your real potential for loss is if your box dies after year 3 and before year 4 and is a motherboard failure. This assumes current Tivo policies are continued.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

so if the motherboard dies- that's it? There is no repair? End of game? No one will fix it? I'm still digesting this- I always thought that if my box died that I could pay maybe $200 or so and get it fixed and save my lifetime...


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

socrplyr said:


> I don't think it is necessarily all or nothing, but you don't have a rate of return that is attainable for most. It is based on the thought that you can gain 5% on money a month. The growth turns out to be 79.6% a year. Even Madoff didn't go that insane on his scheme (he promised returns around 15% I believe). Either you can plant money and grow it or ... With an attainable rate of return, lifetime pays for itself in less than 4 years when compared to a yearly price plan (just over 4 years when compared to the 3-yr plan). That of course relies on the assumption that your box doesn't die, but in the first 3 years if it does die the transfer is free... Your real potential for loss is if your box dies after year 3 and before year 4 and is a motherboard failure. This assumes current Tivo policies are continued.


Well you are abosuletly right on one point. I have invested a certain percentage of my money in "High Risk" investments. As we all know the higher the risk of investment, the greater the ROI. If you just put it into a savings account, your lucky to get 1.5% to 2% back in a year. Invest it directly into a buisness venture (Not in the form of stocks) and your ROI can be imense. Although the risk is very high as well.

The risk is high in investing in a lifetime subscription for your TiVo as well. If your TiVo is destroyed in a FIRE, or lost due to THEFT, your TiVo subscription goes down the tubes as well. Hopefully one has insurance to cover that additional loss. But not everyone does though either. Even though you do have insurance. It is still counted as a loss. Some insurance companies will "Cover" the cost of the TiVo subscription. Other's will not.

This is a free country though. You wanna buy the lifetime, you "Feel" it is the best for you. Then by all means do so. I will admit there is one nice thing about not having to worry about paying the "bill" each month though. LOL

I prefer the month-month plan myself. I was just stating one of the biggest reasons why I choose the month-month plan. Not the only reason. But one of the reasons.

TGC


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

TexasGrillChef said:


> ...


Most people can't make those types of investments. If they could the rate of return wouldn't be nearly as high as it is for you. For paying monthly to break even after 4 years, you need to have ~20% return on your money. Most people can't do that, and in the long run it is unlikely that you will do it either. Although, never say never. I agree with the fact that you take on the extra risk of fire, but you also take on the possibility that the Tivo lasts for 5/6/7... years. As for monthly, if I paid that way I would definitely go for yearly as it guarantees a 17% savings/return, unless of course I was grandfathered into $6.95 pricing. I agree savings accounts are crap, but most of us don't have the opportunities that you do either.


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

fatlard said:


> So there you have it...
> 
> *Moxi $75 and parts
> Tivo is $149 plus $199 transfer
> ...


How much are parts? Without that crucial information, it's impossible to say that "Moxi is better". If parts cost $275+ on average, then Tivo's cheaper.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

socrplyr said:


> I was biting my tongue not to state that. Moxi does have THE feature which he seems to be after, which is the moxi mate. It seems it would be a good fit for him.


That's what I'm thinking too. It really seems to me like the smartest solution. A main unit plus two or three mates to serve an entire house. I'm effectively using one of my current Tivo HD's as a 'mate' now, only using it to play programs off the main Tivo, and for this I'm paying monthly service on it and cablecard fees.

This is where I really think Tivo is falling behind the curve. They should have been pioneering the technology of multi-tuner main units with inexpensive MRV viewers, and selling a whole-home "entertainment hub" kit. Look at some of the things that a MythTV box can do for example, which seems even more advanced than the Moxi. Tivo excels at the human engineering aspect of the DVR, making a product that's easy and intuitive to use. They have a killer opportunity here, but they're completely lacking the ambition to innovate.

I really don't know what the heck Tivo has been doing. Years of product development between the S3/HD and the Premiere, and all we get is the same product with a slightly different interface.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

What obligation is Tivo under to do anything if the box doesn't break yet no longer works with Tivo? That's the situation I'm in now with three of my Series 1 lifetime boxes.

The answer so far is none according to Tivo. Since FiOS was installed I can't successfully complete guided setup via dial-up. It fails at various points. Tivo says I should walk away from them and buy a Premier with lifetime.


I have two TivoHDs and one Series 2 that work fine.


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## dbenrosen (Sep 20, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> The answer so far is none according to Tivo. Since FiOS was installed I can't successfully complete guided setup via dial-up.
> 
> I have two TivoHDs and one Series 2 that work fine.


I have my old Series 1 working with FIOS and dial-up, though I did come across a problem late last year where it wouldn't work. Here is the thread and page where I joined in http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=410172&page=23.

What error are you getting when connecting/trying to connect? Is your series 2 using dial up?


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

dbenrosen said:


> I have my old Series 1 working with FIOS and dial-up, though I did come across a problem late last year where it wouldn't work. Here is the thread and page where I joined in http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=410172&page=23.
> 
> What error are you getting when connecting/trying to connect? Is your series 2 using dial up?


I posted in that thread. My older Tivos has been down since February. CS told me it's Verizon's fault, that dialup might work with 50% of the older Tivos, that a line filter is useless and that I should just walk away from three otherwise functional lifetime boxes. As usual, some genius chimed in on the other thread, apparently unable to understand the difference between an equipment failure and a service one. This is service... there's nothing wrong with my boxes. I dealt with this nonsense for several months the last time this happened and Tivo CS handed out a similar line of BS then too.

My boxes make test calls just fine, they can get phone number listings just fine, can start to download data but it never finishes. My understanding was that if that call is interrupted the download picks up where it left off. I was explicitly told that was not the case by the CS person.

I have attempted this well over 50 times with just about every setup combination imaginable. The problems are with my Series 1's, the Series 2 uses wireless, the two TivoHD's use wireless or ethernet cable.

I was told by CS that maybe it's time to walk away from my three lifetime boxes. Time to buy a Premier with lifetime for $500. Sorry but IMO if you as a company sell lifetime as they do, based on the box and the box is still functionally fine and you do something that makes it inoperable, you need to have a contingency plan for that. And no, not the current offerings.

Obviously Tivo works with FiOS, many have it doing just that. So why lie to me?


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

Brad516 said:


> I posted in that thread. My older Tivos has been down since February. CS told me it's Verizon's fault, that dialup might work with 50% of the older Tivos,
> 
> Sorry but IMO if you as a company sell lifetime as they do, based on the box and the box is still functionally fine and you do something that makes it inoperable, you need to have a contingency plan for that. And no, not the current offerings.
> 
> Obviously Tivo works with FiOS, many have it doing just that. So why lie to me?


What lie did they tell? They said it works with 50% of the older TiVos. Apparently, yours is not one of them.

What did they do that makes it inoperable? Can your TiVo connect on a regular landline? That's all it was ever designed to do. -- Doug


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

DougJohnson said:


> What lie did they tell? They said it works with 50% of the older TiVos. Apparently, yours is not one of them.


Unless you know for a fact that this is a FiOS problem, what's your point?

My three are in the 50%? Right.


Unless you know this is OFFICIAL Tivo policy, why are you contending it's true? And yes, that's what you're doing by asking the question.

If it only works with 50% then why do the answers vary so widely when talking to CS? There should be a reason for the 50% that don't work to not do so. What is it? Why are people told to try a line filter on FiOS and that a line filter makes no difference? Is it true that, despite the fact that it says right on the Tivo screen that a download might take several calls, when a call is interrupted the download starts over from scratch?

Is that enough for you? I've had follow-up calls where Tivo CS would tell me that what the previous person told me was not true.


Like I said, I had the problem a couple of years ago that a large number of people had, I jumped through every hoop for months, all of which according to Tivo CS were based on the problem being everywhere but on Tivo's end. When it finally started working months later, it wasn't because of anything that had happened on my end. And what did I get for those lost months of use?

Silence.



> What did they do that makes it inoperable? Can your TiVo connect on a regular landline? That's all it was ever designed to do. -- Doug


I have a regular landline. What did they do to make it inoperable before? That was long before I had FiOS and nothing changed on my end then.

Mine connects and starts to download. Even if it only downloaded 2% at a time it should've completed by now. It shows it being well into the 90% range complete by the graph. And can't finish.

Frankly people like you are useless in a situation like this. I'm trying to find a solution and you're in fanboy mode... and as someone who currently owns six Tivos and has been a customer (and vocal proponent) for around ten years, I find that annoying.


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## dbenrosen (Sep 20, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> My boxes make test calls just fine, they can get phone number listings just fine, can start to download data but it never finishes. My understanding was that if that call is interrupted the download picks up where it left off. I was explicitly told that was not the case by the CS person.
> 
> Obviously Tivo works with FiOS, many have it doing just that. So why lie to me?


It is definitely something on TiVo's end. My box got "fixed" in late Dec. or early Jan, but I hadn't changed anything other than rerun guided setup.

Since you have Lifetime on the box and the modem is still working as evidenced by your functioning calls to retrieve call-in numbers, they should work with you with regard to the problem or escalate it to someone who will at least try to assist you.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

dbenrosen said:


> It is definitely something on TiVo's end. My box got "fixed" in late Dec. or early Jan, but I hadn't changed anything other than rerun guided setup.


Somehow you got out of the 50%.




> Since you have Lifetime on the box and the modem is still working as evidenced by your functioning calls to retrieve call-in numbers, they should work with you with regard to the problem or escalate it to someone who will at least try to assist you.


That's what I thought too. They should. What they've had me do was toggle each phone setting to see if that fixes the problem. As if there isn't a known setup that works. Barring that, if it doesn't work, why not buy a Premier... after all I've had these for a long time. I've been told I can't transfer lifetime off of any of these boxes, yes I already knew that was the policy but since the boxes aren't broken yet Tivo doesn't work that's not exactly the typical scenario.

That's what I was told. I know buying lifetime was a gamble but I never see no service on working equipment discussed as a lifetime scenario. Obviously it happens.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Brad516 said:


> I posted in that thread. My older Tivos has been down since February. CS told me it's Verizon's fault, that dialup might work with 50% of the older Tivos, that a line filter is useless and that I should just walk away from three otherwise functional lifetime boxes.


Find someone who doesn't have Verizon Fios and hook up the Series 1 at their house and see if it can dial in.

I had a Series 2 where dial up wouldn't work with FIOS. I tried it at someone elses house who didn't have FIOS and it worked.

I think you can add a modem to a series 1 so you don't have to use dial up.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

Brad516 said:


> I'm trying to find a solution


http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/networking_learnmore_nomodel.cfm?type=s1&product=turbonet

or better yet:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Silicon-Dust-Ti...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3cabe97da4

-- Doug


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Find someone who doesn't have Verizon Fios and hook up the Series 1 at their house and see if it can dial in.
> 
> I had a Series 2 where dial up wouldn't work with FIOS. I tried it at someone elses house who didn't have FIOS and it worked.
> 
> I think you can add a modem to a series 1 so you don't have to use dial up.


Mine dial in and connect. Guided Setup almost completes but has not fully loaded since February.

I've tried it with internal and external modems. Fails the same way.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

DougJohnson said:


> http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/networking_learnmore_nomodel.cfm?type=s1&product=turbonet
> 
> or better yet:
> 
> ...


My modems *still work*. I'm not going to run ethernet cabling to where I use these boxes... nor should I have to.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

Brad516 said:


> My modems *still work*. I'm not going to run ethernet cabling to where I use these boxes... nor should I have to.


Sorry I tried to help.
-- Doug


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

DougJohnson said:


> Sorry I tried to help.
> -- Doug


Thanks... but fixing a non-hardware failure by buying hardware shouldn't be what needs to be done.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

As far as the idea that the Series 1 only works 50&#37; of the time, on the Tivo website under "What kind of TV source does my TiVo DVR work with?" it states Yes under FiOS for the Series 1. No disclaimer.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brad516 said:


> As far as the idea that the Series 1 only works 50% of the time, on the Tivo website under "What kind of TV source does my TiVo DVR work with?" it states Yes under FiOS for the Series 1. No disclaimer.


is that for dialing in or for recording. Unless the problem happens over a regular land line then you need to find an alternate solution. Moxi works fine with FIOS.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

You can search for some recent threads. Tivo did some work to help customers with S1 units. Companies sometimes declare a product has reached the end of product lifetime. Repairs, support and even sale of parts are discontinued. How long has the S1 been discontinued? *Tivo isn't currently taking this approach* but I don't know how much resources tivo is prepared to allocate to a long discontinued product. Particularly since (almost all) remaining S1 customers have LS and aren't a source os current revenue.

Customers with hacked units have had some success purging logs. Purging the logs reduces the duration of your phone call. Might work.

Some old hardware doesn't work well with digital phone lines.

edited to add The S1 works with FiOS video. The question is if the modem works with FiOS digital phone service.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I never buy a lifetime. Waste of money. They are making "INTEREST" off your money.


The second statment may or may not be true, and only in part. Since it costs TiVo more to deliver the hardware than the customer pays, a part of that cost is going straight to capital investment. Some part of the rest may be going to not make interest, but rather to prevent TiVo from having o pay interest on their loans themselves. The rest may be garnering some interest.

The first statement is not necessarily true, at all. First of all - and many people fail to consider this - a TiVo with a lifetime subscription enjoys a relatively high resale price. When selling a used TiVo, one can recap a significant portion of the service fee. What's more, transferring the lifetime is less expensive than buying it new. The only time the lifetime service is a bust is if the TiVo dies or is stolen before the user's montholy fees exceed the cost of the lifetime plus interest.

I've had my first S3 for over 3 1/2 years, now. I'kept my S1 for over 6 years before transferring the service to my S3 (and TiVo let me keep the service on my S1 for another year and three months for free!). Oh, and I have never paid $399 for lifetime service. The most I ever paid was $299.



TexasGrillChef said:


> When I put pen to paper. I can make more off saving my $399 and investing it wisely and paying the month to month. Then the money I so called "saved" by buying a lifetime up front.


Only if the TiVo is lost or stolen before the monthly charges add up to more than the lifetime plus interest.



TexasGrillChef said:


> I can make $20 a month on my $399 investment. The money I make each month more than pays for the month to month fees.


I've got to call you on this one. No legitimate investment is going to pay 60% APR. Even $20 a year on a $400 investment is a hard buy, these days. Of course, if one puts the $400 fee on a creedit card at 27%, then one could save a bit under $10 a month by not using a high interest credit card, but that's an entirely different matter.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> What obligation is Tivo under to do anything if the box doesn't break yet no longer works with Tivo? That's the situation I'm in now with three of my Series 1 lifetime boxes.
> 
> The answer so far is none according to Tivo. Since FiOS was installed I can't successfully complete guided setup via dial-up. It fails at various points. Tivo says I should walk away from them and buy a Premier with lifetime.
> 
> ...


Well, I suggest either walking away from the S1s, or else connect via Ethernet. You can get a TurboNet card for $63 new, or under $50 on ebay. The CacheCards are $99 new, or $50 - $60 on ebay.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> Thanks... but fixing a non-hardware failure by buying hardware shouldn't be what needs to be done.


That's just foolishness. Even if the dial-up solution was working, only an idiot would prefer the dial-up solution to an Ethernet solution when the Ethernet solution is available. It's like saying you shouldn't be forced to buy USDA Choice T-Bone steaks at $2.00 a pound because you would rather buy uncertified hamburger meat at $5.00 a pound.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> is that for dialing in or for recording. Unless the problem happens over a regular land line then you need to find an alternate solution. Moxi works fine with FIOS.


Again, there are no disclaimers as far as how it works or how often. I checked Tivo's website before I got FiOS. They said it worked... period.

And for many FiOS customers it does.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lew said:


> You can search for some recent threads. Tivo did some work to help customers with S1 units. Companies sometimes declare a product has reached the end of product lifetime. Repairs, support and even sale of parts are discontinued. How long has the S1 been discontinued? *Tivo isn't currently taking this approach* but I don't know how much resources tivo is prepared to allocate to a long discontinued product. Particularly since (almost all) remaining S1 customers have LS and aren't a source os current revenue.
> 
> Customers with hacked units have had some success purging logs. Purging the logs reduces the duration of your phone call. Might work.
> 
> ...


If the modem doesn't work with FiOS, it shouldn't work with FiOS. For many with FiOS phone service it does. So the reason it works with some FiOS phone services while not others is...?

Is the idea that the people who couldn't complete guided setup with FiOS had analog and digital phone lines?


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> That's just foolishness. Even if the dial-up solution was working, only an idiot would prefer the dial-up solution to an Ethernet solution when the Ethernet solution is available. It's like saying you shouldn't be forced to buy USDA Choice T-Bone steaks at $2.00 a pound because you would rather buy uncertified hamburger meat at $5.00 a pound.


Speaking of idiots... thanks for the foolish opinion. Only a true idiot would write what you just wrote. An Ethernet solution has been available for several years for Series 1 boxes. Of course you must've known that. Only an idiot would say that everyone should've switched to Ethernet... which is what you said. Even a partially functioning brain might consider that many might have Series 1 boxes and not want to do cable runs to that location. That it might not be a primary box. Or they don't need anything that the Ethernet connection gives them. They simply need guide data and a phone call in the middle of the night is perfectly fine.

Talk about idiotic analogies. And some people don't eat meat, genius. When you really feel like thinking, feel free to chime in. Otherwise quit showing what a fool thinks.

Okay?


The faithful deliver as usual.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> As far as the idea that the Series 1 only works 50% of the time, on the Tivo website under "What kind of TV source does my TiVo DVR work with?" it states Yes under FiOS for the Series 1. No disclaimer.


Tivo works fine with FiOS as your TV source. You seem to be having a problem using FiOS for your *phone connection.*


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lew said:


> Tivo works fine with FiOS as your TV source. You seem to be having a problem using FiOS for your *phone connection.*


Yes, because a phone connection is not part of how a *Series 1 Tivo* works.

Seriously... I'm not having any more of a problem than others have had with FiOS as a phone connection and now many of them work WITH FiOS AS A PHONE CONNECTION. Why?

Is this really this hard for folks to understand? Tivo did not sell the Series 1 boxes with any other connection than phone. That is all that's required for it to function as designed and sold. Is it the customer's fault that they sold lifetime and the box didn't become inoperable on it's own and let them off the hook?


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Just spoke with Verizon and Tivo. Verizon said the phone lines are digital, no surprise there. They also said they don't see why Tivo dialup shouldn't work as far as the phone line is concerned and while I was on the phone they called Tivo.The Tivo CSR said that Tivo does not work with digital phone lines. I asked why don't they say that on their website, he said he didn't know. He's supposed to suggest that someone put up just such a disclaimer.

I was also told that what I thought were cumulative downloads all these years weren't. Even though Guided Setup implies otherwise and my experience flies in the face of that. In the past I've had downlaods that got interrupted and when I called back in they finished in a couple of minutes. Either a full download can be accomplished in a couple of minutes or it was indeed cumulative.

I also explained that, among other things, I was told it was outside circumstances (my phone lines) that caused my boxes to be out for several months a couple of years back. Yet without any change on my phonelines or anything else local to me, the boxes finally started working again. This feels like the same thing all ooveragain.

I explained that my current scenario is one they've never addressed. That some on Tivocommunity have what I have working with FiOS phone lines. The CSR said that Tivocommunity wasn't really representative of Tivo users at large, I told him that just about any issues with Tivo usually come up here and sometimes Tivo reps even respond.

I'm supposed to call back and speak with a supervisor.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> Is this really this hard for folks to understand? Tivo did not sell the Series 1 boxes with any other connection than phone. That is all that's required for it to function as designed and sold. Is it the customer's fault that they sold lifetime and the box didn't become inoperable on it's own and let them off the hook?


\

The S1 was designed to work with *analog* phone service. At the time the S1 was released digital phone service was all but non-existant. You can do a search. Numerous posters had issues with Vontage. FiOS uses digital phone service.

*Is this really that hard for you to understand?*


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

There is a simple way to get the Series 1 to connect at a very slow baud rate. This means it can connect over the worst sort of garbage phone lines.

I didn't have a phone jack near one of my TVs, so I used an S1 TiVo box for quite a while with those gadgets (I think they're called "Wireless Modem Jacks") that use your power lines to bridge to a real phone jack. The phone quality was *garbage*, you wouldn't want to spend 15 seconds of your life talking over that connection. But the TiVo was able to connect and download program information.

I do have a similar setup for my R-10 boxes (DirecTiVos). There you set the Dial Prefix to ",#034" and it will use a slower, more robust modulation scheme.

The Series 1 prefix is probably different. But an aggressive search (perhaps including archived posts) might find the string. Or maybe someone in the TiVo Help forum has the answer.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> Just spoke with Verizon and Tivo. Verizon said the phone lines are digital, no surprise there. They also said they don't see why Tivo dialup shouldn't work as far as the phone line is concerned and while I was on the phone they called Tivo.The Tivo CSR said that Tivo does not work with digital phone lines. I asked why don't they say that on their website, he said he didn't know. He's supposed to suggest that someone put up just such a disclaimer.


This is sort of misleading. The industry has overloaded the phrase "digital phone lines".

There are truly "all digital" phones that some businesses use in PBXs. Those phones won't work with what is called *POTS* (plain old telephone service). They really need a fully digital connection. But those phones are a PITA and aren't found in most homes (unless you have your own digital PBX at home, in which case you should know the problems that come with that).

But FiOS doesn't work that way. It works with POTS. It works with the phones you already have in your house. There is an ONT bolted on to the side of your house. The ONT converts the digital optical signals from fiber to the old fashioned analog phone signals that the POTS lines in 99.99% of residences use. The phone line is "digital" over most of its distance; it's just that for the last 100 feet or so it is converted back to analog.

FiOS would be a non-starter if you had to replace your phones. For that same reason, a Series 1 TiVo will work over FiOS. If it doesn't, then it's a problem with your unit, not with Series 1 TiVos in general.

BTW the original Series 1 boxes had an absolutely awful modem (there were even pictures showing people what components went bad, what devices to replace for DIY fixes). For some people the boxes worked fine. But for others, like me, they were horrible. I'd frequently get warnings that my program information was about to run out. But setting the Dial Prefix really made a difference. There was also a way to use an external modem with the box, but the guy I sold mine to never went that way. He had cleaner phone lines and didn't have a problem with the internal modem.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> There is a simple way to get the Series 1 to connect at a very slow baud rate. This means it can connect over the worst sort of garbage phone lines.
> 
> I didn't have a phone jack near one of my TVs, so I used an S1 TiVo box for quite a while with those gadgets (I think they're called "Wireless Modem Jacks") that use your power lines to bridge to a real phone jack. The phone quality was *garbage*, you wouldn't want to spend 15 seconds of your life talking over that connection. But the TiVo was able to connect and download program information.
> 
> ...


I've tried several prefixes and I've tried the modem jacks in addition to direct to the wall jack. Same results.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> This is sort of misleading. The industry has overloaded the phrase "digital phone lines".
> 
> There are truly "all digital" phones that some businesses use in PBXs. Those phones won't work with what is called *POTS* (plain old telephone service). They really need a fully digital connection. But those phones are a PITA and aren't found in most homes (unless you have your own digital PBX at home, in which case you should know the problems that come with that).
> 
> ...


Thanks. I've tried with the internal modems and with external Haye brand modems. Same results. If as you say it's a problem with my unit... I have three unit*s* that fail the same way that worked before. With various connections. So all three failed simultaneously?

That's what Tivo told me a couple of years ago and it wasn't true then. And they blamed the phone lines back then too.

I can dial out and get a carrier pretty much every time. I don't have a problem downloading setup info. If someone would like to explain why these work yet Guide data can never complete because of the "digital" phone line, I'm all ears.

FiOS works with my analog phones, it works with my analog fax machines, it works with my analog Tivo for everything except completing the Guided Setup, which is not the only downloading it does.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Not to poop on the party but how did this go from Lifetime service to phone lines?


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

chrishicks said:


> Not to poop on the party but how did this go from Lifetime service to phone lines?


Three lifetime boxes that didn't crap out but no longer work with Tivo and can't be transferred unless I spend $500 with Tivo. Each.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

I thought about waiting until tomorrow and see what other words of wisdom I'd receive here but how's this for funny...

the very same day, after trying dozens of times before over several months on my DIGITAL PHONE LINE, AFTER I contacted Verizon who then contacted Tivo about this, after everything I talked about in the most recent posts...

Guided Setup worked.


AFAIK Verizon didn't switch me back to analog lines, I didn't change anything in any of the setup parameters and after a long conversation with CS and a request to escalate this, my Series 1 now works again.

I'm not a big believer in coincidences... but I do expect someone to tell me that's what this is.

Tivo does not work with digital phone lines. It's a miracle.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> AFAIK Verizon didn't switch me back to analog lines, I didn't change anything in any of the setup parameters and after a long conversation with CS and a request to escalate this, my Series 1 now works again.
> 
> I'm not a big believer in coincidences... but I do expect someone to tell me that's what this is.


I think it's coincidence.

There was a post a while ago, that if you read between the lines, made it sound like TiVo lost the source code for the Series 1. So it's unlikely that TiVo could make changes, or that anyone at TiVo has a good understanding of how the box even works (at a detailed level).

And do you honestly expect a CSR to do anything to solve a problem like this? They're there to make sure you haven't unplugged your box from the power outlet or from the coax (or from the phone jack!).


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

As expected. 


So why does it work now? On a phone line it can't work on. It didn't work until after the escalation was requested. That takes it out of the CSR's hands.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brad516 said:


> As expected.
> 
> 
> So why does it work now? On a phone line it can't work on. It didn't work until after the escalation was requested. That takes it out of the CSR's hands.


so you are dead sure that Verizon never changed anything, you did speak to them as well. You seem so fixated on this being some problem in the TiVo box when you know that a significant number work and at various times all 3 of your S1 worked and at various times none of your 3 S1 worked. In all I have read of your predicimnet the FIOS phone line is the common piece.
Also even assuming some supervisor above the CSR said "Quick, we need to change those boxes back he is on to us" how would they have gotten a change into your S1 until AFTER you made a successful connection. 
all in all it is very obvious to most readers that the FIOS phone line is the one thing that could have changed over time and certainly the only thing that could have chnaged after the phone call. There is no bias in this , just observation of the scenario and common sense root cause analysis


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> I thought about waiting until tomorrow and see what other words of wisdom I'd receive here but how's this for funny...
> 
> the very same day, after trying dozens of times before over several months on my DIGITAL PHONE LINE, AFTER I contacted Verizon who then contacted Tivo about this, after everything I talked about in the most recent posts...
> 
> ...


Your phone connectors are all still analog. FIOS phone lines are no different than anyone else's these days. I mean you do hear a dial tone right? Never the less, the problem is Verizon's phone service. I suggest you invest in something like a "MagicJack" and use that...


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

I just read http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7873006#post7873006 and determined that Brad is more interested in moaning about this stuff (which he doesn't even care about that much) than resolving anything... and i've been trying to find a way to block your posts temporarily till we've moved on cuz you're mind is made up and nothing I can do will change that. But I can't find how...


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

MeStinkBAD said:


> I just read http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7873006#post7873006 and determined that Brad is more interested in moaning about this stuff (which he doesn't even care about that much) than resolving anything... and i've been trying to find a way to block your posts temporarily till we've moved on cuz you're mind is made up and nothing I can do will change that. But I can't find how...


Not the least bit surprised. I'm more interested in having Tivos that worked and did not fail continue to work. fanboys never seem to get that.

I'm a longtime Tivo, probably longer than most. I also have more Tivos currently running than most. The difference is that I haven't drunk the koolaid to the point where I have to defend Tivo no matter what.

Here's a simple way to avoid my posts... they each list my name as the poster. You'd think even a fanboy could figure that out. And by all means avoid the one where it says my Tivo NOW WORKS.


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## CubsWin (Mar 20, 2010)

xnappo said:


> This was true 5 years ago, it is not anymore. The Satellite and cable co boxes are now almost caught up


*Almost???* My Dish Network 622 receiver is 4 year old technology and still blows the TiVo Premiere out of the water. It may lack some of the newer features, but is a much better box overall.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so you are dead sure that Verizon never changed anything, you did speak to them as well.


You're right, Verizon probably changed my DIGITAL PHONE LINE BACK TO ANALOG.




> You seem so fixated on this being some problem in the TiVo box when you know that a significant number work and at various times all 3 of your S1 worked and at various times none of your 3 S1 worked. In all I have read of your predicimnet the FIOS phone line is the common piece.


I'm not sure which part of your butt you're pulling this from but I clearly said what I said. So the FiOS phone line is the common piece and Tivo itself is not. That quite frankly is moronic.

Not sure where you got the at various times crap but that's exactly what it is. The other time none of my S1 boxes worked was during a well documented period a couple of years ago when many shared the same failure... and it wasn't the phone lines then either. And they failed at the same time.

You guys seem so fixated on pointing everywhere except at Tivo it's hilarious.

One thing you did get right is that I do know that a number of them do work, which flies in the face of what the last Tivo CSR told me. Duh.

Is your point that it's *impossible* that Tivo did something to clear this up? Just so I'm clear on what your point is. Is that it? Because if it isn't, you have no point.



> Also even assuming some supervisor above the CSR said "Quick, we need to change those boxes back he is on to us" how would they have gotten a change into your S1 until AFTER you made a successful connection.


Speaking of fixated, were you too fixated to comprehend this: "the very same day, after trying dozens of times before over several months on my DIGITAL PHONE LINE, *AFTER I contacted Verizon who then contacted Tivo about this*, after everything I talked about in the most recent posts...

Guided Setup worked".

So that means I didn't try it after the call? "After" was even capitalzed to catch the attention of those who choose not to read for content.



> all in all it is very obvious to most readers that the FIOS phone line is the one thing that could have changed over time and certainly the only thing that could have chnaged after the phone call.


And you gleaned this consensus from where? So far some of the comments after my last posts are oblivious to the fact that while I was told by Tivo my boxes can't work, one now does. As far as your contention, I'd hope you realize how truly ignorant it is. Tivo couldn't have done ANYTHING. That's what you're clearly saying.

Priceless. If that's what you think is obvious and most readers are that doofus, fine. I seriously doubt it.

The only reason I take this tone is because frankly... I'm fed up with people like you. No matter what, point elsewhere. And pretend the likely is impossible. I seriously doubt most people who read this can't see through you. I do.



> There is no bias in this , just observation of the scenario and common sense root cause analysis


Bull. The only thing that would make someone say the only common thing in my TIVO FAILURES is the phone line is bias. It certainly couldn't be actually thinking. It couldn't be Tivo. They couldn't for instance force a different build down to my box.

Common sense has no part in what you've written... but you probably can't see that either.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

MeStinkBAD said:


> Your phone connectors are all still analog. FIOS phone lines are no different than anyone else's these days. I mean you do hear a dial tone right? Never the less, the problem is Verizon's phone service. I suggest you invest in something like a "MagicJack" and use that...


Damn... you even quoted my post and then suggest I invest in hardware to fix I problem I clearly wrote is now fixed. Thanks.

Reading for comprehension really is tough for some folks. Fortunately you probably won't read this either.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Brad516 said:


> Guided Setup worked.
> 
> 
> Tivo does not work with digital phone lines. It's a miracle.


All you really know is it worked one time out of the many times you tried. You don't have enough evidence to conclude that guided setup will never fail again.

Try running guided setup again and see if it works.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MeStinkBAD said:


> Your phone connectors are all still analog. FIOS phone lines are no different than anyone else's these days. I mean you do hear a dial tone right? Never the less, the problem is Verizon's phone service. I suggest you invest in something like a "MagicJack" and use that...


Technically you are correct there, the internal POTS interface to your phones in the house IS still analog.

However where you are in the wrong is that the telephone service provided by FiOS installations, just like the installations from Comcast and other providers are digital when they enter the real world, and modems such as the internal modem in an S1 or S2 are based around analog phone line specifications and transmission. While some of the digital phone systems are more compatible with them, they are not, and will never be the same as an old school analog POTS setup.

No one is saying it won't work, we're just saying the rules are different.

Diane


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## Rowsdower (Dec 11, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> You're right, Verizon probably changed my DIGITAL PHONE LINE BACK TO ANALOG.


No one is suggesting that. But it's possible that Verizon performed some sort of adjustment.

Another explanation is that TiVo performed an adjustment on its end. But given the fact that other FiOS subscribers in various areas have not experienced this issue (as you've pointed out), it seems more likely that Verizon corrected a configuration error on your line. Do you dismiss the possibility?

But what about the other two boxes? If they aren't working yet, the "coincidence" scenario (meaning that neither TiVo nor Verizon fixed anything) seems the most likely of all.



> I'm not sure which part of your butt you're pulling this from but I clearly said what I said. So the FiOS phone line is the common piece and Tivo itself is not. That quite frankly is moronic.


The point, I believe, is that it's highly unlikely that the three boxes began malfunctioning for a reason _not_ related to your use of a FiOS telephone line. The incompatibility could be the fault of Verizon or TiVo (or both), but it's that particular combination that caused the problem to manifest.



> Not sure where you got the at various times crap but that's exactly what it is. The other time none of my S1 boxes worked was during a well documented period a couple of years ago when many shared the same failure... and it wasn't the phone lines then either. And they failed at the same time.


You say that there was a well documented problem on TiVo's end, yes? It certainly can occur, but I've seen no proof that it has in this instance. (That's not to say that it definitely hasn't, but I don't understand why you're so certain that it has.)



> You guys seem so fixated on pointing everywhere except at Tivo it's hilarious.


There is a tendency around here (among some) to blindly defend TiVo, and I've criticized this in the past. But that isn't what's happening in this thread. You're seeing responses to _your_ apparent fixation on pointing _nowhere_ except at TiVo (in a rather uncivil manner).

I can't state with any degree of certainty that TiVo isn't at least partially to blame for the problem, but it's rather unfair to assume that there could be no other culprit.



> One thing you did get right is that I do know that a number of them do work, which flies in the face of what the last Tivo CSR told me. Duh.


CSRs are notoriously unreliable when it comes to providing technical advice. TiVo's are less incompetent than many, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.



> So that means I didn't try it after the call? "After" was even capitalzed to catch the attention of those who choose not to read for content.


In the future, it might be a good idea to make sure that you've properly interpreted a message before rudely questioning its author's comprehension skills.

ZeoTiVo's point is that no software could have been uploaded to your TiVo box until *after* the guided setup was completed. Therefore, it's impossible that TiVo sent a client-side fix that enabled the guided setup to complete. [further reading]

In fairness, I'll note again that it _is_ possible that TiVo performed an adjustment on _its_ end. But given the circumstances that you've described, this isn't the most likely explanation.



> It couldn't be Tivo. They couldn't for instance force a different build down to my box.


That's correct. Assuming that a newer software build than yours exists (and rest assured that TiVo didn't program a special one for you, let alone in a matter of hours), TiVo has no means of uploading it to a box that cannot complete the guided setup. That's what ZeoTiVo tried to tell you.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rowsdower said:


> No one is suggesting that. But it's possible that Verizon performed some sort of adjustment.


The person I responded to is not suggesting that it could have anything to do with Tivo.



> Another explanation is that TiVo performed an adjustment on its end. But given the fact that other FiOS subscribers in various areas have not experienced this issue (as you've pointed out), it seems more likely that Verizon corrected a configuration error on your line. Do you dismiss the possibility?


Yes, some have not experienced problems but others have. As I pointed out. And many who've had problems eventually started working without hardware fixes or phone company intervention.



> But what about the other two boxes? If they aren't working yet, the "coincidence" scenario (meaning that neither TiVo nor Verizon fixed anything) seems the most likely of all.


Why? Only if that's what you need to think. Out of the multitude of times I tried this since February it failed every time, even the same day before I talked to Tivo. You can believe it finally working after the request for escalation is a coincidence if you need to.



> The point, I believe, is that it's highly unlikely that the three boxes began malfunctioning for a reason _not_ related to your use of a FiOS telephone line. The incompatibility could be the fault of Verizon or TiVo (or both), but it's that particular combination that caused the problem to manifest.


And is Tivo not a part of that combination? If it's Verizon's fault it's because they have digital phone lines... according to Tivo. They still have digital phone lines.

Address this: doing housekeeping and downloading setup information works fine, even on a digital phone line. Tivo maintains a carrier for sometimes half an hout at a time. Why?



> You say that there was a well documented problem on TiVo's end, yes? It certainly can occur, but I've seen no proof that it has in this instance. (That's not to say that it definitely hasn't, but I don't understand why you're so certain that it has.)


Do you have a Series 1? People who have them and experienced the problems and got the runaround from Tivo back then likely remember. I'm one of those people which is why it doesn't seem anywhere near as unlikely to me that it could happen AGAIN. BTDT

And guess what they were telling people back then... it must be your digital phone lines. I didn't have digital phone lines at the time.

It's called blaming everyone except yourself. It's a tried and true tactic, old school.



> There is a tendency around here (among some) to blindly defend TiVo, and I've criticized this in the past. But that isn't what's happening in this thread. You're seeing responses to _your_ apparent fixation on pointing _nowhere_ except at TiVo (in a rather uncivil manner).


I guess you consider being called an idiot civil? Apparently. There absolutely are peoole blindly defending Tivo, apparently you can't see that. There's hardly anything new about that. The kneejerk response is typical... the user must be doing something wrong. Look at your return on investment. Tivo wouldn't do something like that. Ad nauseum... so when another fanboy pipes in with the SOS yes, I see no reason to be any more civil than they are. Sorry but looking everywhere BUT Tivo doesn't work for me.



> I can't state with any degree of certainty that TiVo isn't at least partially to blame for the problem, but it's rather unfair to assume that there could be no other culprit.


And is it just as unfair to assume it couldn't be Tivo? If so, you have other people in this thread to respond to besides me. Go ahead.



> CSRs are notoriously unreliable when it comes to providing technical advice. TiVo's are less incompetent than many, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.


When a CSR says something a fanboy wants to believe, it's the gospel. Funny how that works.

I know they're unreliable from around ten years of dealing with them. I know that you can talk to three of them and come away with four stories. If someone really wants to explain why a modem download on a digital phone line WILL NOT WORK, again, I'm all ears. If you can't explain that as a fact then why act like it's one?



> In the future, it might be a good idea to make sure that you've properly interpreted a message before rudely questioning its author's comprehension skills.


I've seen enough incomprehension that I'm comfortable pointing it out. I pointed it out when someone clearly didn't read or comprehend something that was clearly stated in this thread. So if you really want to offer unsoilicited advice on that issue, why aren't you talking to the person who can or won't read? That's wherein the problem lies.



> ZeoTiVo's point is that no software could have been uploaded to your TiVo box until *after* the guided setup was completed. Therefore, it's impossible that TiVo sent a client-side fix that enabled the guided setup to complete. [further reading]


So no software is uploaded duiring the guided setup? Then what is uploaded to my box during guided setup?



> In fairness, I'll note again that it _is_ possible that TiVo performed an adjustment on _its_ end. But given the circumstances that you've described, this isn't the most likely explanation.


That's a change from what others have been saying.



> That's correct. Assuming that a newer software build than yours exists (and rest assured that TiVo didn't program a special one for you, let alone in a matter of hours), TiVo has no means of uploading it to a box that cannot complete the guided setup. That's what ZeoTiVo tried to tell you.


You'll likely not be happy with me pointing this out but why would Tivo have to write something AFTER my phone call? Why would it have to be a special build just for me? And why would it have to be newer? All of these assumptions simply aren't very bright. Unless you work for Tivo you don't know what they could do. Do you work for Tivo? ZeoTivo apparently doesn't even have a clear idea of what I wrote. I addressed that.

This issue has been going on for quite a while with FiOS... if you don't want to do the research fine, that's your problem, not mine.


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## Rowsdower (Dec 11, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> The person I responded to is not suggesting that it could have anything to do with Tivo.


I disagree that the FiOS line is "certainly the only thing that could have changed after the phone call." If I were replying directly to ZeoTiVo, I would politely note the possibility that TiVo performed an adjustment on its end (which I don't regard as likely but cannot rule out). I would _not_ respond with a vitriolic stream of insults and accusations.



> Yes, some have not experienced problems but others have. As I pointed out.


Do you see me arguing with that?



> And many who've had problems eventually started working without hardware fixes or phone company intervention.


Well, what changed? If TiVo fixed something, why are some customers still affected?

Note that I don't claim to possess the answer.



> Why?


If either TiVo or Verizon successfully addressed the problem, why are the two other boxes still not functioning properly? To me, that makes the one guided setup completion seem like a fluke.

But I don't claim to know this for certain. It's merely my best guess.



> And is Tivo not a part of that combination?


I plainly stated that "the incompatibility could be the fault of Verizon or TiVo (or both)."



> If it's Verizon's fault it's because they have digital phone lines... according to Tivo. They still have digital phone lines.


And two of your boxes still haven't completed their guided setup, correct?

If you're certain that the third has been fixed, go ahead and run its guided setup again. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance.

We both know that CSRs tend to be misinformed. We also know that some people have successfully used TiVo boxes over digital telephone lines, so any blanket statement that they're 100% incompatible obviously is incorrect. But we also know that some people have encountered problems using analog modems (not just in TiVo boxes) over digital telephone connections (not just Verizon's), so potential difficulties clearly exist.



> Address this: doing housekeeping and downloading setup information works fine, even on a digital phone line. Tivo maintains a carrier for sometimes half an hout at a time. Why?


There obviously is a material technical difference between those calls and the guided setup call.



> Do you have a Series 1?


I did in the past, but not currently.



> People who have them and experienced the problems and got the runaround from Tivo back then likely remember.


I haven't disputed the claim.



> I'm one of those people which is why it doesn't seem anywhere near as unlikely to me that it could happen AGAIN. BTDT
> 
> And guess what they were telling people back then... it must be your digital phone lines. I didn't have digital phone lines at the time.


I'll assume that your account is accurate, in which case TiVo screwed up. Whenever I've seen evidence that TiVo screwed up, I've said so.

In this instance, are people with analog telephone lines experiencing the problem?



> I guess you consider being called an idiot civil?


No, I don't. Are you resorting to the "two wrongs make a right" defense? If so, perhaps you should have limited your incivility to one instance against that particular individual.



> There absolutely are peoole blindly defending Tivo, apparently you can't see that.


I believe that some responses have been overly definitive, but the underlying arguments are far from blind.



> So no software is uploaded duiring the guided setup? Then what is uploaded to my box during guided setup?


Various configuration information.

A software download occurs when the box is notified that a newer version is available. The box doesn't perform such a check until _after_ the guided setup has been completed.

Is this a design flaw on TiVo's part? Probably.



> That's a change from what others have been saying.


It's an understandable oversight in a discussion focused on client-side changes (which only Verizon could have made).



> You'll likely not be happy with me pointing this out but why would Tivo have to write something AFTER my phone call? Why would it have to be a special build just for me?


Huh? Those are conditions that I explicitly cited as nonexistent.



> And why would it have to be newer?


As noted above, TiVo boxes automatically check for newer software versions and download them when they're available. TiVo is capable of flagging specific units for updates, but even a reversion to older code would require a new build with a higher version number/letter.

But again, such a download cannot occur until *after* the guided setup is complete, so all of the above is moot.

But feel free to check the three boxes' software versions and report back.



> This issue has been going on for quite a while with FiOS... if you don't want to do the research fine, that's your problem, not mine.


Again, I don't know who you're arguing with. I don't dispute that a long-term FiOS compatibility issue exists.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rowsdower said:


> I disagree that the FiOS line is "certainly the only thing that could have changed after the phone call." If I were replying directly to ZeoTiVo, I would politely note the possibility that TiVo performed an adjustment on its end (which I don't regard as likely but cannot rule out). I would _not_ respond with a vitriolic stream of insults and accusations.


That's nice. You can respond any way you like. So can I.



> Do you see me arguing with that?


Did I say "you" were?



> Well, what changed? If TiVo fixed something, why are some customers still affected?


Everyone did not simultaneously start working again the last time. When you can explain that you'll probably have your answer.



> Note that I don't claim to possess the answer.


But the other people in this thread act like they do despite the fact that they don't either.



> If either TiVo or Verizon successfully addressed the problem, why are the two other boxes still not functioning properly? To me, that makes the one guided setup completion seem like a fluke.


Who said the other two boxes aren't functioning properly? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Do you have any idea how old that gets? What have I done with the other boxes since yesterday? Answer: YOU DON'T KNOW. So why would you say what you just said?



> But I don't claim to know this for certain. It's merely my best guess.


At least you can see that.



> I plainly stated that "the incompatibility could be the fault of Verizon or TiVo (or both)."


And OTHERS SAID IT WAS NOT. Do you not understand that? I haven't been talking with you, I've been talking with them.



> And two of your boxes still haven't completed their guided setup, correct?


You already assumed they didn't. Correct?




> If you're certain that the third has been fixed, go ahead and run its
> guided setup again. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance.


When I have time that's exactly what I plan to do. But even if it works again and the other boxes too, what will that prove to the people that need to think the problem lies any where else but Tivo? It'll just be three coincidences. And I'm no longer on that side of the 50%.




> We both know that CSRs tend to be misinformed. We also know that some people have successfully used TiVo boxes over digital telephone lines, so any blanket statement that they're 100% incompatible obviously is incorrect. But we also know that some people have encountered problems using analog modems (not just in TiVo boxes) over digital telephone connections (not just Verizon's), so potential difficulties clearly exist.


If we both know that but Tivo doesn't, what's wrong with that picture? How could Tivo not know that? It's what they do. To unequivocably state that they're incompatible without that knowledge is pathetic. Don't they have a database at CS?

Actually having dealt with long term issues before, I know just how pathetic their recordkeeping apparently is. They seem to know nothing from one call to the next. The best thing is to keep notes of who you talk to and what they say. Not that the next person won't tell you they have no idea why you got previous answers.



> There obviously is a material technical difference between those calls and the guided setup call.


Fine... what is it? What type of data does download while the other type doesn't finish? I for one don't know that there's a material difference so I would be hard pressed to say obviously. I just know one worked while the other didn't. That hardly points to the makeup of the download.



> I did in the past, but not currently.


Did you have one during the period I mentioned? That's why I asked.



> I haven't disputed the claim.


I didn't contend otherwise.



> I'll assume that your account is accurate, in which case TiVo screwed up. Whenever I've seen evidence that TiVo screwed up, I've said so.


In the meantime others didn't take the same stance as you. They pointed, along with Tivo, everywhere else. Like I said, that gets old.



> In this instance, are people with analog telephone lines experiencing the problem?


I don't know.



> No, I don't.


Then take that person to task. You clearly have an opinioon on that, why just share it with me?



> Are you resorting to the "two wrongs make a right" defense? If so, perhaps you should have limited your incivility to one instance against that particular individual.


I'm resorting to the fact that I have no reason to be civil when all some people bring to the table is the same BS and show repeatedly that they aren't reading for content. So I call a spade a spade. If that curbs their nonsense, mission accomplshed. Some of the suggestiions in this thread were simply stupid. It's like Toyota fans telling owners they just need to try some new tires.


At this point I see no need to suffer fools gladly.



> I believe that some responses have been overly definitive, but the underlying arguments are far from blind.


Nice spin.

That's putting it mildly. How is "overly definitive" not blind to the alternatives?



> Various configuration information.


You're positive that's all? What do you base that on? What configuration information? Just curious.



> A software download occurs when the box is notified that a newer version is available. The box doesn't perform such a check until _after_ the guided setup has been completed.
> 
> Is this a design flaw on TiVo's part? Probably.


This could've been a hardware issue on their side for all we know. Or is that impossible?



> It's an understandable oversight in a discussion focused on client-side changes (which only Verizon could have made).


It's only focused on that side by the people who refuse to think it could possibly be on the other side.



> Huh? Those are conditions that I explicitly cited as nonexistent.


I'll break it down for you. You said: "That's correct. Assuming that a newer software build than yours exists"

Why would you have to assume that? Why would it have to be a newer build? Why couldn't it be reverting back to an older one? Why would it even need to be tied to a build

" (and rest assured that TiVo didn't program a special one for you,"

Because if it were a software build, it would have to be one for a single subscriber? LOL

" let alone in a matter of hours),"

Becuase this assumed software build for a problem that existed for months couldn't exist prior to my last call?

"TiVo has no means of uploading it to a box that cannot complete the guided setup. That's what ZeoTiVo tried to tell you."

So a software build does not get loaded when a box is initially set up with the Guided Setup call? The currently installed build remains the same until AFTER Guided Setup completes and another call would need to be made?



> As noted above, TiVo boxes automatically check for newer software versions and download them when they're available. TiVo is capable of flagging specific units for updates, but even a reversion to older code would require a new build with a higher version number/letter.


What are you basing this on?



> But again, such a download cannot occur until *after* the guided setup is complete, so all of the above is moot.
> 
> But feel free to check the three boxes' software versions and report back.
> 
> Again, I don't know who you're arguing with. I don't dispute that a long-term FiOS compatibility issue exists.


I'm RESPONDING TO YOU. If you can't see who I've been arguing with, I can't help you... It's pretty obvious.


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## Rowsdower (Dec 11, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> Everyone did not simultaneously start working again the last time. When you can explain that you'll probably have your answer.


I don't know what caused that problem or whether it relates to this one.



> Who said the other two boxes aren't functioning properly? Go ahead, I'll wait.


"So far some of the comments after my last posts are oblivious to the fact that while I was told by Tivo my boxes can't work, one now does."

If the situation has changed since then, please say so. (I even requested confirmation later in the post.)



> And OTHERS SAID IT WAS NOT. Do you not understand that? I haven't been talking with you, I've been talking with them.


Me: "The incompatibility could be the fault of Verizon or TiVo (or both), but it's that particular combination that caused the problem to manifest."

You: "And is Tivo not a part of that combination?"



> When I have time that's exactly what I plan to do. But even if it works again and the other boxes too, what will that prove to the people that need to think the problem lies any where else but Tivo? It'll just be three coincidences. And I'm no longer on that side of the 50%.


If you can reliably complete guided setup calls, it would be unreasonable to believe that nothing changed. The question would be whether to attribute the change(s) to TiVo or to Verizon.

Anecdotally, a scattered problem gradually resolved for some people and not others would tend to point to Verizon (because a problem on TiVo's end likely would manifest with greater consistency, while problems on Verizon's end can be localized).

But as I said, this is anecdotal.



> To unequivocably state that they're incompatible without that knowledge is pathetic.


Agreed.



> Fine... what is it? What type of data does download while the other type doesn't finish? I for one don't know that there's a material difference so I would be hard pressed to say obviously.


I couldn't begin to tell you what the material difference is, but there _must_ be one for the issue to arise with one call and not the others. This is true regardless of whose fault it is.



> Did you have one during the period I mentioned? That's why I asked.


No, not that recently. But I'm assuming that your account of the events is accurate.



> Then take that person to task. You clearly have an opinioon on that, why just share it with me?


I'm not going to post a reply purely to address someone's manners. If that individual is reading this thread, he/she knows what I've written.



> Nice spin.
> 
> That's putting it mildly. How is "overly definitive" not blind to the alternatives?


Blind defense of TiVo (which I _have_ witnessed in past discussions) entails ignoring the available evidence. In my assessment, the available evidence in this instance legitimately points elsewhere (apart from the misinformation supplied by TiVo's CSRs).



> You're positive that's all? What do you base that on? What configuration information? Just curious.


Location/channel information and such. I base this on years of personal experience and recollection of discussions here and at TiVo's official help forums (including those in which TiVo engineers commented).

When a new software version is downloaded, the call status becomes "pending restart" and the box automatically restarts at 2:00 AM (unless manually restarted sooner) to perform the installation. This *never* occurs upon the guided setup call, during which no software version check is performed. Even if updated software has been available for years, it isn't downloaded until the following call is placed.



> This could've been a hardware issue on their side for all we know. Or is that impossible?


Certainly not. It merely seems improbable, given my understanding of the circumstances.



> I'll break it down for you. You said: "That's correct. Assuming that a newer software build than yours exists"
> 
> Why would you have to assume that? Why would it have to be a newer build? Why couldn't it be reverting back to an older one?


I've already addressed that.

But again, it's impossible that your TiVo box downloaded a software build before completing its guided setup.



> Why would it even need to be tied to a build


I was replying to the following:

"They couldn't for instance force a different build down to my box."



> " (and rest assured that TiVo didn't program a special one for you,"
> 
> Because if it were a software build, it would have to be one for a single subscriber? LOL


No. Again, that's a scenario whose existence I explicitly ruled out.



> " let alone in a matter of hours),"
> 
> Becuase this assumed software build for a problem that existed for months couldn't exist prior to my last call?


Again, you're quoting something that I excluded as though I cited it as a requisite.

And again, it's impossible that your TiVo box downloaded a software build before completing its guided setup, so all of this is moot.



> "TiVo has no means of uploading it to a box that cannot complete the guided setup. That's what ZeoTiVo tried to tell you."
> 
> So a software build does not get loaded when a box is initially set up with the Guided Setup call? The currently installed build remains the same until AFTER Guided Setup completes and another call would need to be made?


Correct.



> What are you basing this on?


Answered above.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> Speaking of idiots... thanks for the foolish opinion. Only a true idiot would write what you just wrote. An Ethernet solution has been available for several years for Series 1 boxes. Of course you must've known that.


So you're telling us the computer on which you typed that sentence has a dial-up modem, right? If one does not have broadband Ethernet - presumably because they cannot afford it - then Ethernet is not an option. If one does have a broadband solution handy, then a dial-up solution for an Ethernet capable device is just absurd. For an S1 TiVo it's all but insane.



Brad516 said:


> Only an idiot would say that everyone should've switched to Ethernet... which is what you said.


I take it, then, you also listen to 8-track tapes and watch black and white TV? POTS service was developed in the 19th century. I don't know if you have noticed or not, but this is the 21st century.



Brad516 said:


> Even a partially functioning brain might consider that many might have Series 1 boxes and not want to do cable runs to that location.


OK, so I hadn't considered it. I'll now consider it... (2 ms pause) ... OK, I've considered it. It's a stupid notion, in the extreme. Wired Ethernet connectivity is all but essential for far more than just DVR purposes. Every room in my house (excluding bathrooms) and of my relatives houses and to my knowledge all of my friend's houses are wired for Ethernet. Every inhabited room in my house has a switch with multiple devices plugged in.



Brad516 said:


> That it might not be a primary box.


'Irrelevant. My S1 Tivo isn't even subscribed, but it is alive and talking on the LAN. Indeed, being unsubscribed, LAN access is all it ever enjoys. It's by no means my primary box. It isn't even my tertiary box. Jeez, it isn't even 7th in line.



Brad516 said:


> Or they don't need anything that the Ethernet connection gives them.


You don't *need* TV or a DVR, at all (nor do I).



Brad516 said:


> They simply need guide data and a phone call in the middle of the night is perfectly fine.


A TiVo - especially a Series I - without an Ethernet connection is only about 1/4 of a TiVo. In point of fact, a Series I does not even need guide data. As I already mentioned, my S1 is unsubbed, and so does not get any guide data. It would be completely useless for me without the Ethernet connection even if it did have guide data, however. Now, I realize not everyone makes the same use of their S1 TiVo that I do, but an S1 TiVo with Ethernet is capable of so vastly much more than one without it's not even funny.



Brad516 said:


> Talk about idiotic analogies. And some people don't eat meat, genius. When you really feel like thinking, feel free to chime in. Otherwise quit showing what a fool thinks.


That's OK, you've done a much better job of that than I ever could a few posts below this one to which I responded.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> I thought about waiting until tomorrow and see what other words of wisdom I'd receive here but how's this for funny...
> 
> the very same day, after trying dozens of times before over several months on my DIGITAL PHONE LINE


It's not a digital phone line, any more than any other. All POTS lines are converted to digital at the phone switch. If you are using a classical Local Exchange Carrier, then this is a 5ESS or DMS at the central office. If you are using a CLEC, then it may be an Analog Telephone Adapter whihc converts to VOIP or a similar protocol. Regardless, after it leaves the class 4 or class 5 device, it's digital until it reaches the class 5 device at the far end.



Brad516 said:


> AFAIK Verizon didn't switch me back to analog lines


If you have an S1 TiVo, then it has never been anything but an analog line.



Brad516 said:


> Tivo does not work with digital phone lines. It's a miracle.


Neither does any other consumer device, other than an ISDN modem. There are probably fewer than 50,000 ISDN modems in residential dwellings.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Brad516 said:


> You're right, Verizon probably changed my DIGITAL PHONE LINE BACK TO ANALOG.


Verizon does not offer digital lines to consumers. Very few companies offer digital lines any longer, or ever did, for that matter.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Technically you are correct there, the internal POTS interface to your phones in the house IS still analog.
> 
> However where you are in the wrong is that the telephone service provided by FiOS installations, just like the installations from Comcast and other providers are digital when they enter the real world


Define "real world". Every phone switch in the United States (and virtually all of North America) is digital. All inter-switch communications and intra-switch communications are digital. No one anywhere in the U.S. still employs an analog switch.



dianebrat said:


> and modems such as the internal modem in an S1 or S2 are based around analog phone line specifications and transmission. While some of the digital phone systems are more compatible with them, they are not, and will never be the same as an old school analog POTS setup.


Closer, but still not quite a cigar. A number of *COMPRESSED* digital devices, such as some Analog Telephone Adapters in use on VOIP systems have problems with some analog devices. My Vonage ATA, for example, has real problems communicating (via DTMF) with the conference bridge supplied by my company for its employees. One of our products supplies integrated voice and data solutions to moderately small businesses. There are a couple of different devices we use to deliver between 12 and 24 POTS lines combined with 512K - 3M of internet. Several of these devices have sporadic problems with faxes from several specific manufacturers. ADPCM devices are notorious for having problems with faxes or modems, and so forth.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

CubsWin said:


> *Almost???* My Dish Network 622 receiver is 4 year old technology and still blows the TiVo Premiere out of the water. It may lack some of the newer features, but is a much better box overall.


I don't know about the Premier. It may be a hunk of junk, or not. I have yet to see a reasonable review of its features. That said, I can't help but notice those who claim their cherished devices to be superior to the TiVo are long on hyperbole and short on details. Please list at least 10 items of real merit whereby the Dish 622 blows any TiVo out of the water. 'No hand waving. I want a direct comparison. Then explain how it is better considering the following deal breakers:

1. Suggestions

2. Wishlists

3. Publishing MPEG video from a PC

4. Publishing video to a PC

5. Publishing ripped DVDs from a PC

6. Searches allowing filtering by HD, Genre, content, etc.

7. TiVoWebPlus

8. Galleon (and it's 18 4th party apps).

9. Increasing the size of the internal drive

10. Custom folders for video published to the DVR

That's just a few of the deal breakers. There are a lot more features of which I take full advantage. Others take even further advantage of features I don't even use.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Define "real world". Every phone switch in the United States (and virtually all of North America) is digital. All inter-switch communications and intra-switch communications are digital. No one anywhere in the U.S. still employs an analog switch.
> 
> Closer, but still not quite a cigar. A number of *COMPRESSED* digital devices, such as some Analog Telephone Adapters in use on VOIP systems have problems with some analog devices. My Vonage ATA, for example, has real problems communicating (via DTMF) with the conference bridge supplied by my company for its employees. One of our products supplies integrated voice and data solutions to moderately small businesses. There are a couple of different devices we use to deliver between 12 and 24 POTS lines combined with 512K - 3M of internet. Several of these devices have sporadic problems with faxes from several specific manufacturers. ADPCM devices are notorious for having problems with faxes or modems, and so forth.


Actually you've expanded on my post far better then I could, thank you!

Diane


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> Verizon does not offer digital lines to consumers. Very few companies offer digital lines any longer, or ever did, for that matter.


Tell Tivo and the posters here that. I'm not the one pointing to digital phone lines as the problem.

Clearly you didn't understand the sarcasm in my post.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lrhorer said:


> So you're telling us the computer on which you typed that sentence has a dial-up modem, right? If one does not have broadband Ethernet - presumably because they cannot afford it - then Ethernet is not an option. If one does have a broadband solution handy, then a dial-up solution for an Ethernet capable device is just absurd. For an S1 TiVo it's all but insane.


I know Rowsdower thinks I should be more civil but what you wrote is just plain stupid. I know you don't realize that.

I have broadband, genius. I also have existing construction and an older Tivo I use in my kitchen on a 22" TV. I don't need to run an ethernet cable to that room. I need guide data to set up and use season passes. I don't need a high speed connection for that, a call in the middle of the night is fine.

Could this possibly get any more stupid? Of course it could. Let's watch...




> I take it, then, you also listen to 8-track tapes and watch black and white TV? POTS service was developed in the 19th century. I don't know if you have noticed or not, but this is the 21st century.


Yes, if you're going to be this dumb no point in curbing it now. I've already explained what I have and as usual it bounced off that incredibly thick head of yours.

I'm typing this one of my HTPC's that I have set up in my home office, watching HDTV on an 84" projection screen. So it's fun when someone is willing to make the dumbass assumption that I'm behind on technology based on some older gear I keep around that still works *as I need it to*.

Duh.




> OK, so I hadn't considered it. I'll now consider it... (2 ms pause) ... OK, I've considered it. It's a stupid notion, in the extreme. Wired Ethernet connectivity is all but essential for far more than just DVR purposes. Every room in my house (excluding bathrooms) and of my relatives houses and to my knowledge all of my friend's houses are wired for Ethernet. Every inhabited room in my house has a switch with multiple devices plugged in.


You probably put less than 2ms of actual thought into this entire post.


Would someone else like to tell this guy that using a DVR as a DVR is enough for some applications? Apparently he has yet to figure this out yet.


And I'm supposed to give a rat's ass what's in your house because? That's how stupid this is.



> 'Irrelevant. My S1 Tivo isn't even subscribed, but it is alive and talking on the LAN. Indeed, being unsubscribed, LAN access is all it ever enjoys. It's by no means my primary box. It isn't even my tertiary box. Jeez, it isn't even 7th in line.


Everthing is irrelevant to you except what you choose to latch onto. No surprise there.



> You don't *need* TV or a DVR, at all (nor do I).


Spoken like a true idiot. Ignore the basic point as usual.



> A TiVo - especially a Series I - without an Ethernet connection is only about 1/4 of a TiVo. In point of fact, a Series I does not even need guide data. As I already mentioned, my S1 is unsubbed, and so does not get any guide data. It would be completely useless for me without the Ethernet connection even if it did have guide data, however. Now, I realize not everyone makes the same use of their S1 TiVo that I do, but an S1 TiVo with Ethernet is capable of so vastly much more than one without it's not even funny.


And if a person doesn't need more than the basic functionality it came with (season passes among other things) you really can't wrap that tiny mind around it, eh?

What is my Series 1 with ethernet going to do that my TWO HDs and Series 2 don't? That >>>I<<< want on my kitchen TV?



> That's OK, you've done a much better job of that than I ever could a few posts below this one to which I responded.


Thanks for the entertainment... it's rare that someone would go to the lengths you have to prove what an complete and utter moron you are. I'd say put some thought into your next volley but I don't know if you have any adults around who can help.

Rowsdower, he's all yours.

Later.


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## Rowsdower (Dec 11, 2002)

Brad516 said:


> Rowsdower, he's all yours.


As you know, I disapprove of your tone. Nonetheless, I'll note that I never cease to be amazed by responses along the lines of the one to which you replied.

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting paid-for functionality. It's one thing to recommend that someone upgrade to something more advanced, but if a person is satisfied with what he/she owns and merely wants it to function as advertised (for as long as the hardware is operational and the service provider remains in business), it's outrageous to suggest that there's something wrong with that.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rowsdower said:


> As you know, I disapprove of your tone. Nonetheless, I'll note that I never cease to be amazed by responses along the lines of the one to which you replied.


I'm not at all surprised you feel that way.



> There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting paid-for functionality. It's one thing to recommend that someone upgrade to something more advanced, but if a person is satisfied with what he/she owns and merely wants it to function as advertised (for as long as the hardware is operational and the service provider remains in business), it's outrageous to suggest that there's something wrong with that.


I agree. Thanks.

And now, after working flawlessly since I purchased it, one of my TivoHDs is only accepting remote signals intermittently. Tried all the basic troubleshooting including swapping locations with the other working TivoHD. On to the next adventure.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Brad516 said:


> Tell Tivo and the posters here that. I'm not the one pointing to digital phone lines as the problem.


we know that - ironically that is where your problem was/is though. You said it was working now somewhere down the thread.


Rowsdower said:


> There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting paid-for functionality. It's one thing to recommend that someone upgrade to something more advanced, but if a person is satisfied with what he/she owns and merely wants it to function as advertised (for as long as the hardware is operational and the service provider remains in business), it's outrageous to suggest that there's something wrong with that.


yet TiVo never advertised nor claimed the modem would work over a Verizon FIOS digital setup. TiVo notes that the S1 can record from a FIOS box but that is rather a different thing.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yet TiVo never advertised nor claimed the modem would work over a Verizon FIOS digital setup.


Stop saying stuff like this.

FiOS delivers a POTS phone line. To equipment connected to that line, it's the same as the POTS phone lines in 99.99% of the residences in this country.

As I type this, just a few feet from me, is a touch-tone phone, manufactured by AT&T in 1987. It works with FiOS, even though AT&T "never advertised nor claimed" it would. How could they claim that? The development of this phone preceded the deployment of FiOS by decades.

Similarly, the S1 TiVo preceded the deployment of FiOS. There is no need for TiVo to "advertise" or "claim" the modem will work, because if it doesn't the TiVo is defective.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Modems on S1 are notoriously bad. If I recall it right it even was a class action about modems that TiVo settled about 10 years ago. The most likely reason for the modem not working or working intermitently is a quality of the modem in S1.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

From tivo's website:VoIP (Voice over IP)


> Not supported. We recommend connecting to the TiVo service through your home network. While some customers have reported success with the following VoIP providers: Comcast, Time Warner Voice, and AT&T U-Verse, the analog modem in your DVR is not designed to work with digital services.


The fact that many people don't have any issue doesn't change the fact that digital doesn't always work.

The modem in the S1 isn't that good. It's conceivable some customers may have a failing modem.

Technically FiOS isn't voice over IP.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

samo said:


> Modems on S1 are notoriously bad. If I recall it right it even was a class action about modems that TiVo settled about 10 years ago. The most likely reason for the modem not working or working intermitently is a quality of the modem in S1.


I had the same issues with an external Hayes modem. Industry standard when it came out.


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

lew said:


> From tivo's website:VoIP (Voice over IP)
> 
> The fact that many people don't have any issue doesn't change the fact that digital doesn't always work.
> 
> ...


Okay... Tivo says VOIP is not supported and FiOS isn't VOIP.

Your point?


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## Brad516 (Apr 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> we know that - ironically that is where your problem was/is though. You said it was working now somewhere down the thread.


I know how much some of you need to believe this is fact but where is your proof? And if my phone line didn't change but now regularly completes calls...





> yet TiVo never advertised nor claimed the modem would work over a Verizon FIOS digital setup. TiVo notes that the S1 can record from a FIOS box but that is rather a different thing.


I'll leave you to Phantom Gremlin on this.


----------

