# TiVo Preparing to Separate Its Products & Licensing Businesses



## ke3ju (Jan 5, 2004)

Forgive me if this has already been posted, I didn't find it during my search. I'm curious what folks here think about this.

TiVo Preparing to Separate Its Products & Licensing Businesses | Light Reading


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

What caught my eye in this was their focus on investing in the Android TV platform. I've said before that they made a strategic mistake going with Opera apps over Android apps for their app ecosystem. They would have a much better selection of apps with Android. Perhaps they will finally switch over to Android on their DVRs.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> What caught my eye in this was their focus on investing in the Android TV platform. I've said before that they made a strategic mistake going with Opera apps over Android apps for their app ecosystem. They would have a much better selection of apps with Android. Perhaps they will finally switch over to Android on their DVRs.


Indeed. This would allow them to have the latest apps as well.


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## miketx (Sep 22, 2005)

I wonder if Android will run on their legacy Roamios/Bolts/Minis? If there is driver support for the HW (video, cable, ethernet), it should be not hard to do.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

miketx said:


> I wonder if Android will run on their legacy Roamios/Bolts/Minis? If there is driver support for the HW (video, cable, ethernet), it should be not hard to do.


yes it will. android or whatever custom android tivo would use would have to be certified by cablelabs in order for it to work. without cablelabs cert, its a non starter. unless tivo abandons cable altogether going forward.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> What caught my eye in this was their focus on investing in the Android TV platform. I've said before that they made a strategic mistake going with Opera apps over Android apps for their app ecosystem. They would have a much better selection of apps with Android. Perhaps they will finally switch over to Android on their DVRs.


Yep, I've said the same on this forum for a few years now -- embrace Android, preferably Google's Android TV (with integrated access to the Google Play Store), as TiVo's underlying OS.

And that's exactly what TiVo is doing for their new hardware/software platform that they are pitching to IPTV providers. They're offering those MVPDs that use, or are switching to, IPTV a new STB running a TiVo-customized version of Google's Android TV. Basically, a TiVo app with the Hydra UI takes over most aspects of the home screen, meaning that it looks more or less like the UI on a Bolt and not so much like the UI on the Nvidia Shield Android TV (a retail box that runs "regular" Android TV). But it does have menu links to whatever apps one installs from the Google Play Store and I'm sure it also has Google Assistant and Chromecast capabilities. But these new boxes from TiVo do not contain QAM tuners or CableCARDs and I don't think they have hard drives either. Everything -- linear channels, cable VOD, cloud DVR -- streams from the MVPD's server.

Perhaps we'll see TiVo and their hardware partner Arris (which is merging with CommScope, and may subsequently spin off their STB division) put out a similar OTA DVR running on the Android TV OS. Or just tweak the Android TV box they're pitching to IPTV providers and sell it at retail for optional use with a TiVo-branded OTA network tuner+hard drive box (basically the Tablo model).

All that said, I don't see TiVo putting out a new CableCARD-equipped DVR that runs Android TV. TiVo knows that both CableCARD and QAM-based cable TV are dying. Meanwhile, TiVo and Arris have a set of traditional DVR hardware (basically the Bolt but in a plain-looking case) that they will continue offering to MVPDs that stick with QAM.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Aero 1 said:


> yes it will. android or whatever custom android tivo would use would have to be certified by cablelabs in order for it to work. without cablelabs cert, its a non starter. unless tivo abandons cable altogether going forward.


The most satisfying thing would be for them to certify a core that runs in a cablelabs approved isolated sandbox and open the user interface bits to developers to provide different apps and themes for controlling and scheduling things (and fixing TiVo bugs), but that's just a dream, not likely to become a reality.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

miketx said:


> I wonder if Android will run on their legacy Roamios/Bolts/Minis? If there is driver support for the HW (video, cable, ethernet), it should be not hard to do.


It's not impossible, but the prognosis isn't good. Processor support is a big hurdle. Roamio/Bolts/Minis are all using MIPS SoCs. While Android can run on MIPS, actual support (SDKs, source code, vendor support) is all but dead.

TiVo's developers would have an awful lot of heavy lifting to do to make anything but a very old version of Android work, and app support would be very limited.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Yeah i just was reading about this on the conference call transcription. It sounds like they are working on selling off either the IP or the Product business.

Also 2 major product launches from Tivo this year.

And they have a 5 pillar plan and one of the pillars says QAM is too expensive to deploy for today's services and they are working on IPTV platform and a low cost option for customers. Part of that is moving to more of a transactional model instead of a subscription model.

To me it sounds like they will try to do something like Roku. Sell some ads on the interface, and have a cheap box for consumers, but use the Tivo UI stuff and try to integrate services as much as possible. Or they'll just be an app on these streaming boxes and devices and tvs.


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

trip1eX said:


> Also 2 major product launches from Tivo this year.


Can you elaborate? Or is that all they said?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Here's a description of their product business:

I will now turn to our 2 businesses. I will start with our Product business. We now have 55 customers signed up to deploy TiVo User Experience 4 and 50 customers who have begun deploying this guide. Among those deploying TiVo User Experience 4 are Mediacom, RCN, Atlantic Broadband and Service Electric. We will also have 2 major IPTV solution deployments in the first half of 2019.

We anticipate having an IPTV solution will help drive both conversions and new household deployments for a next-generation discovery experience.

In September, we launched the TiVo Bolt OTA, the premium 4k ultra-high-definition capable set-top box designed to work for the high-definition antenna. Consumers now have an advanced discovery option available to them regardless of whether they subscribe to a linear pay television service. Following our announcement last quarter of the deployment of our personalized advertising product, Sponsored Discovery, we launched our first advertiser campaign in Q4 with a major broadcaster for the promotion of one of their fall TV show launches. We were very successful and for viewers that saw the ad, it led to 142% increase in tune-in rate to the new show.

Additionally, Verizon extended a multi-year agreement to have access to the latest version of TiVo's Personalized Content Discovery Platform, conversation search, and recommendation services across set-top boxes, websites and popular streaming devices, bringing forth a more personalized entertainment experience for its customers.

In terms of voice-enabled discovery, our natural language understanding entertainment discovery solutions continue its impressive traction. In Q4, TiVo's unique voice users grew 54% from 2.4 million at the end of Q3 to 3.7 million unique users at the end of Q4. Additionally, quarterly queries grew by 93% from 123 million queries in Q3 to 238 million queries in Q4. We are pleased with the continued progress we are making in extending our discovery of technology leadership.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Here's a description of their IP business:

On the Intellectual Property Licensing front, we continue to make progress in terms of innovations and customers. On the innovation front, we had 193 patents granted in 2018, a company record. This validates our continuing thought leadership in the video space. In terms of customers, we continue to demonstrate the relevancy of our industry-leading patent portfolio as Samsung renewed its multi-year patent license agreement for the global use of Rovi's video discovery patents and technologies across Samsung's smartphone and tablet devices.

Additionally, Minerva Networks renewed its multi-year IP license in the quarter.

In terms of our ongoing Comcast litigation, as we've highlighted before, 9 of the top 10 pay-TV service providers in the U.S. licensed a vast portfolio of Intellectual Property of its use, except Comcast, which let its license lapse at the end of Q1 2016.

In 2017, the International Trade Commission or ITC ruled that Comcast infringed 2 of Rovi's remote record patents. Comcast chose to no longer make those popular remote recording capabilities available to the X1 subscribers, rather than obtain a market rate license.

We pursued a second case in the ITC, which went to trial in October 2018 on 3 additional patents covering different popular features innovated by Rovi. Due to the government shutdown, the initial results of the second ITC case are now expected in late Q2 or early in Q3 and the final results are expected sometime in Q4.

In addition, we have a number of District Court cases filed in New York, Massachusetts, and California. We expect the case related to the '034 patent to become active later this year. We also filed a new District Court case in California in January relating to Comcast infringing 8 Rovi cloud and network DVR patents. These District Court cases of Comcast would incur significant monetary damages if we prevail.

While the ITC and District Court cases are ongoing, Comcast continues to pursue patent challenges in the form of inter partes review, or IPR, with the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, or PTAB. While we have had mixed results at the PTAB thus far, TiVo has appealed many of the adverse determinations of the IPRs related to the lawsuits we filed in 2016.

Notably, since November 13, 2018, the PTAB rules have changed to make the PTAB process more equitable to inventors like Rovi. TiVo is fully committed to protecting its intellectual property from unauthorized use and we expect Comcast will ultimately pay a license for innovations just as its pay-TV peer companies do and as Comcast itself has done in the past.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

You think people are upset with Hydra, wait till Android apps pop up on their dvrs.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Yep, I've said the same on this forum for a few years now -- embrace Android, preferably Google's Android TV (with integrated access to the Google Play Store), as TiVo's underlying OS.
> 
> And that's exactly what TiVo is doing for their new hardware/software platform that they are pitching to IPTV providers. They're offering those MVPDs that use, or are switching to, IPTV a new STB running a TiVo-customized version of Google's Android TV. Basically, a TiVo app with the Hydra UI takes over most aspects of the home screen, meaning that it looks more or less like the UI on a Bolt and not so much like the UI on the Nvidia Shield Android TV (a retail box that runs "regular" Android TV). But it does have menu links to whatever apps one installs from the Google Play Store and I'm sure it also has Google Assistant and Chromecast capabilities. But these new boxes from TiVo do not contain QAM tuners or CableCARDs and I don't think they have hard drives either. Everything -- linear channels, cable VOD, cloud DVR -- streams from the MVPD's server.
> 
> ...


They could just allow users to plug in a SD box of tuners that already have CableCARD support.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

trip1eX said:


> Here's a description of their product business:
> 
> I will now turn to our 2 businesses. I will start with our Product business. We now have 55 customers signed up to deploy TiVo User Experience 4 and 50 customers who have begun deploying this guide. Among those deploying TiVo User Experience 4 are Mediacom, RCN, Atlantic Broadband and Service Electric. We will also have 2 major IPTV solution deployments in the first half of 2019.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the DVR is taking a back seat or dead.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> Sounds like the DVR is taking a back seat or dead.


It seems dead to me. I look at the Tivo product page and see the Bolt 1tb for $850.

I look at the deal on the TV I just found for my brother, a Samsung 65" NU8000 top of their mainstream LCD tv line for $800. The TV has ethernet and wifi and 2 USB ports and apps aka Netflix and company. Hell even Apple is putting iTunes on Samsung TVs now. OH and it's still a TV. And a pretty nice one at that. Although no OLED. But no $2k either. 

You gotta ask yourself how can the DVR (and thus Tivo) compete with that? Why do we need cabletv let alone a DVR?

Yes you can say you can't find this or that content today on every streaming service etc. And you'd be right. But you have to acknowledge the paradigm change here and what is coming. This is just the early innings. This is Pat Mahomes while the DVR is Tom Brady.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> It seems dead to me. I look at the Tivo product page and see the Bolt 1tb for $850.


Of course, that's with a Lifetime subscription (if I'm understanding this correctly). But agreed as to the cost point--I've said that for years (and been knocked here earlier for it). A reason why I only have purchased my TiVo boxes (with Lifetime) under specials or deals.


> I look at the deal on the TV I just found for my brother, a Samsung 65" NU8000 top of their mainstream LCD tv line for $800. The TV has ethernet and wifi and 2 USB ports and apps aka Netflix and company. Hell even Apple is putting iTunes on Samsung TVs now. OH and it's still a TV. And a pretty nice one at that. Although no OLED. But no $2k either.
> 
> You gotta ask yourself how can the DVR (and thus Tivo) compete with that?


Does that TV offer DVR capability?


> Why do we need cabletv let alone a DVR?


Among other things, I use my TiVo boxes for OTA (thus, no-charge) show time-shifting, commercial skipping, QuickMode show playback (saves me a third to close to a half of the show running time, when combined with commercial skip), trickmode play (including reviewing content), simultaneous multi-show viewing and/or recording, handy show jukeboxing, and show archiving. For me, this use justifies the cost.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> They could just allow users to plug in a SD box of tuners that already have CableCARD support.


Yeah, true, although you'd still need a hard drive to record on (PC or NAS on the local network) and then at that point you've got a pretty messy solution. Just doesn't seem like something you'd see the TiVo brand on. If they are ever to go the route of a network-connected central DVR hub, I think it'll be a box that combines the tuners, the hard drive and the necessary software, all designed to work exclusively with a TiVo front-end app/box. Like Tablo, Fire TV Recast and the upcoming HDHomeRun Scribe Duo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Does that TV offer DVR capability?


Have you used Netflix?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Have you used Netflix?


Ooh, Netflix can record the latest episode of Game of Thrones for me?

Cool! I didn't realize they'd developed that capability!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ooh, Netflix can record the latest episode of Game of Thrones for me?
> 
> Cool! I didn't realize they'd developed that capability!


Why the wink?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Why the wink?


To show that I'm teasing you, not mocking you.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To show that I'm teasing you, not mocking you.


Ok. That clears thing up. I was wondering which one it was. Not.

I just didn't get the point you're trying to make.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Ok. That clears thing up. I was wondering which one it was. Not.
> 
> I just didn't get the point you're trying to make.


Well, honestly, I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. You seemed to be implying that Netflix has DVR capabilities...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, honestly, I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. You seemed to be implying that Netflix has DVR capabilities...


Doesn't it?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Doesn't it?


Um...do you know what a DVR is?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Have you used Netflix?


Not for awhile, no. But Netflix is an additional monthly expense, and it doesn't allow recording, right? And so if one stops subscribing, or Netflix eliminates a show from its lineup, the show no longer is available. Plus, Netflix doesn't offer TiVo trickplay, as far as I'm aware. Or provide my "basic," daily OTA show access (albeit great for its own series and for the immense content on its shelves).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Not for awhile, no. But Netflix is an additional monthly expense, and it doesn't allow recording, right? And so if one stops subscribing, or Netflix eliminates a show from its lineup, the show no longer is available. Plus, Netflix doesn't offer TiVo trickplay, as far as I'm aware. Or provide my "basic," daily OTA show access (albeit great for its own series and for the immense content on its shelves).


CAn you pause tv when watching Netflix?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Um...do you know what a DVR is?


Yeah I do actually. Are you saying Netflix doesn't have that functionality?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> CAn you pause tv when watching Netflix?


If I'm watching TV via my TiVo, yep. (I'm not sure what you're getting at.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> Yeah I do actually. Are you saying Netflix doesn't have that functionality?


No, it doesn't.

Is it Netflix that you don't know what it is?

This has become a really confusing conversation...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it doesn't.
> 
> Is it Netflix that you don't know what it is?
> 
> This has become a really confusing conversation...


You can't pause the show when watching Netflix?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> If I'm watching TV via my TiVo, yep. (I'm not sure what you're getting at.)


Can you pause a tv show if you are watching in Netflix?


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Do you really think that function alone makes Netflix a DVR?

So to repeat the question, do you know what a DVR is? Emphasis on the 'R'?


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

stile99 said:


> Do you really think that function alone makes Netflix a DVR?
> 
> So to repeat the question, do you know what a DVR is? Emphasis on the 'R'?


So you can pause tv on Netflix?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Can you pause a tv show if you are watching in Netflix?


It's been a while since I've had Netflix. But if Netflix indeed can pause a show (I assume it can), does Netflix have QuickMode? Will it record/offer me my daily OTA shows content? Will it record 4 shows at the same time? Will it let me skip the commercials in that content?​
I guess I see Netflix as a different beast than a TiVo box/DVR.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mikeguy said:


> It's been a while since I've had Netflix. But if Netflix indeed can pause a show (I assume it can), does Netflix have QuickMode? Will it record/offer me my daily OTA shows content? Will it let me skip the commercials in that content?​
> I guess I see Netflix as a different beast than a TiVo box/DVR.


And more importantly, will it record all the shows I have access to and allow me to watch them at my leisure? Today, tomorrow, or years from now?

To which, of course, the answer is no.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> It's been a while since I've had Netflix. But if Netflix indeed can pause a show (I assume it can), does Netflix have QuickMode? Will it record/offer me my daily OTA shows content? Will it let me skip the commercials in that content?
> 
> I guess I see Netflix as a different beast than a TiVo box/DVR.


OK will assume you can pause shows in Netflix since I didn't get any direct no answers. Just weird looks.

To help answer your questions I have more questions. Does Netflix have fast forward or rewind capabilities? IN other words can you skip forward to a scene you want to watch or jump back to watch something again?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This has become a really confusing conversation...


But educational. I looked up "teasing" and "mocking" and enlarged my understanding.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> OK will assume you can pause shows in Netflix since I didn't get any direct no answers. Just weird looks.
> 
> To help answer your questions I have more questions. Does Netflix have fast forward or rewind capabilities? IN other words can you skip forward to a scene you want to watch or jump back to watch something again?


Tell you what--as you're the one who brought up Netflix, why don't_ you_ answer what Netflix can do (this is getting too cat-and-mouse for me). The point that I and others have been making is that Netflix is not a DVR and does not substitute for one. Hence, a continuing value for a DVR/a TiVo box (for those who use a DVR's separate functionality) even if one subscribes to Netflix.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> So you can pause tv on Netflix?


You've made your answer quite clear. One is forced to assume you're trying to make a point and crap on yet another thread. Too bad your point is invalid, Netflix is by no definition a DVR, even if it does indeed have trickplay (something that does not appear in ANY definition of DVR).

You need to stop. I don't know if you're just having a day and tomorrow you're going to be fine or what, but for today, just sign off, have a cookie, and come at it fresh tomorrow.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

OK I found the answer to ff/rw question. The answer is yes Netflix does have ff/rw capability. 

Next question. Does Netflix let you time shift its programming? 

And hey I found that answer already too. Yes it does. You guys are no fun. These were easy questions. You could have answered them. I really think you could have.


What question do the answers to these questions answer? They answer the question of whether or not Netflix performs the essential functionality of a DVR. Amazing! I knew we'd get there. I just thought I wouldn't have to do all the work. 

Ok here's a few bonus questions. Think careful about your answers. You may use your phone. These are more difficult but I think they are doable. Cue the Jeopardy music. (But not looking for answers in the form of a question. )

Is Netflix the only app available on tvs today? 

Does the Samsung tv I helped my brother find also have an HBO app so the guy that likes to tease not mock can watch GAme of Thrones anytime he wants to?  

Will tvs every year have access to more or fewer apps? 

Whoever is the first to answer all three of these questions will win a prize: The name of the Tivo member with 1 lightly used for a year Tivo Bolt residing in their closet that doesn't have a subscription to it. He might give it to you. 

Thanks for playing or not playing. Enjoy your weekend!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And now, at last, I understand. Ignored.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And now, at last, I understand. Ignored.


I can't pretend to understand. I just go back to your earlier question:



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Um...do you know what a DVR is?


 ​


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mikeguy said:


> I can't pretend to understand. I just go back to your earlier question:


I don't understand what he's saying. I just understand what he's doing. (Hint: It starts with a "T" and ends with a "roll.")


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I happened on this thread. It is the most ridiculous conversation ever. 

Definition of DVR "Electronic device connected to a television that allows an individual to record various programs." Is that Netflix?

But even most ridiculous is someone compared an outdated system of any era to Tom Brady.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> But even most ridiculous is someone compared an outdated system of any era to Tom Brady.


I saw the Tom Brady reference as being to something really great whose days are numbered...


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I saw the Tom Brady reference as being to something really great whose days are numbered...


Tivo isn't winning Super Bowls anymore!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> Tivo isn't winning Super Bowls anymore!


I haven't seen anything better...


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I haven't seen anything better...


While this may be true currently, I'm not investing in another (unless things change) because of reasons mentioned in the thread.

Isn't that what counts?


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

I think a lot of people can see how Netflix or Hulu does seem like a DVR. You just don't pick and set up the recordings. They have the movies/shows already "recorded" so you just select them and play them. For the majority of the population these services are probably enough since even if they have a DVR they will also subscribe to these services anyway. A DVR to these people might not be worth the expense. A friend who had worked for Comcast said this was one of the reasons for including the DVR in the bundles. Too many were choosing to just go with the X1 box without the DVR so they bundled it and of course the price is included in the bundle. There are always going to be people who just have to have a DVR but their numbers are falling.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Maybe we should call Netflix a DVP - Digital Video Player.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should call Netflix a DVP - Digital Video Player.


Netflix (and Hulu, etc.) are not players, they are services that can be played on any number of devices. So I would change that to DVS - Digital Video Service.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

MR Brain will always be a TiVo fanboy. 
You can say TiVo is my world. I grew up with it.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

pfiagra said:


> Netflix (and Hulu, etc.) are not players, they are services that can be played on any number of devices. So I would change that to DVS - Digital Video Service.


The Netflix app installed on my iPad and Apple TV is a player for that service.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

I just tried to record my local news using Netflix, and I couldn't do it. Where's the record button? It should have one since it's a DVR.

By the same logic, a car and a truck are also the same thing. They both have wheels and engines and can get you from point A to point B. Never mind the one major characteristic that distinguishes one from the other. So they must be the same thing. Problem is I can't fit a couch in the back of my car. So maybe we still need both after all.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mdavej said:


> I just tried to record my local news using Netflix, and I couldn't do it. Where's the record button? It should have one since it's a DVR.
> 
> By the same logic, a car and a truck are also the same thing. They both have wheels and engines and can get you from point A to point B. Never mind the one major characteristic that distinguishes one from the other. So they must be the same thing. Problem is I can't fit a couch in the back of my car. So maybe we still need both after all.


They are both called vehicles! And a rocket ship is not a boat? It tears me up sometimes how nit picky folks on here really are. Where is my picking nits emoji? oliceofficer:


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

I hear you. But the difference between Player and Recorder is not a nit. It’s massive. 

The implication is that streaming playback in general replaces all TiVo functionality. I agree that if Netflix’s library included everything ever broadcasted (and you could skip commercials), then you’d have no need to record and no need for a DVR like TiVo. But we’re still nowhere close to that. Even if it did exist, it wouldn’t be free.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mdavej said:


> I hear you. But the difference between Player and Recorder is not a nit. It's massive.
> 
> The implication is that streaming playback in general replaces all TiVo functionality. I agree that if Netflix's library included everything ever broadcasted (and you could skip commercials), then you'd have no need to record and no need for a DVR like TiVo. But we're still nowhere close to that. Even if it did exist, it wouldn't be free.


The point is that SVOD services like Netflix and Hulu are (indirect) competitors to DVRs. Either way, you're getting a broad selection of content available to be watched when one wants (time-shifting/on-demand), with the possibility of avoiding ads. It's not that Netflix is the same thing as a DVR but rather that, for a lot of consumers, it fulfills a lot of the same needs.

Hulu is an even better example. Think about someone deciding between an OTA DVR and a subscription to Hulu, which provides next-day access to content from three of the big 4 broadcast networks. Are they the exact same thing? No, of course not, but you can see how a consumer would weigh the pros and cons of one solution vs. the other.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ufo4sale said:


> MR Brain will always be a TiVo fanboy.
> You can say TiVo is my world. I grew up with it.


Same here.

Why, I was a mere child of 40 when I got my first TiVo!


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

NashGuy said:


> The point is that SVOD services like Netflix and Hulu are (indirect) competitors to DVRs. Either way, you're getting a broad selection of content available to be watched when one wants (time-shifting/on-demand), with the possibility of avoiding ads. It's not that Netflix is the same thing as a DVR but rather that, for a lot of consumers, it fulfills a lot of the same needs.
> 
> Hulu is an even better example. Think about someone deciding between an OTA DVR and a subscription to Hulu, which provides next-day access to content from three of the big 4 broadcast networks. Are they the exact same thing? No, of course not, but you can see how a consumer would weigh the pros and cons of one solution vs. the other.


It's the VHS market all over again, there used to be people who only watched prerecorded videos and never recorded anything. To them video rental stores were a primitive SVOD video service. Then there were people who recorded everything and rented little to nothing (I'll record it off on HBO, it's cheaper and I'm not getting in that video store insanity ). You may have been a child asking why does (fill in name of relative here) machine that plays tapes with a clock that blinks zeros, what's wrong with it. 
Fast forward... heavy VCR users went to DVRs and and the pre-recorded people have gone the SVOD route. Things change, yet they don't.


----------



## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Same here.
> 
> Why, I was a mere child of 40 when I got my first TiVo!


The Tivo universe calls some earlier, and some later. You answered the call, that is all that matters.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

zalusky said:


> Maybe we should call Netflix a DVP - Digital Video Player.


Unless it's an old school Netflixer, you know the type.."Let's watch (fill in the movie) on Netflix"/"OK, where's the red envelope... did you take the disc out and put it somewhere ? .. Remember Netflix shipped it's first disc in 1998 .


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tenthplanet said:


> Fast forward... heavy VCR users went to DVRs and and the pre-recorded people have gone the SVOD route. Things change, yet they don't.


Yeah, kinda. I'd say that buying/renting pre-recorded VHS evolved into the same with DVD, then Blu-ray and TVOD (buying/renting from iTunes, Amazon, Vudu, etc.) while VCR recording of cable/broadcast TV evolved into both DVR as well as SVOD.


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## Hickoryw (Dec 6, 2008)

trip1eX said:


> OK I found the answer to ff/rw question. The answer is yes Netflix does have ff/rw capability.
> 
> Next question. Does Netflix let you time shift its programming?
> 
> ...


No,
Yes,
More.

... did I win?


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> The point is that SVOD services like Netflix and Hulu are (indirect) competitors to DVRs. Either way, you're getting a broad selection of content available to be watched when one wants (time-shifting/on-demand), with the possibility of avoiding ads. It's not that Netflix is the same thing as a DVR but rather that, for a lot of consumers, it fulfills a lot of the same needs.
> 
> Hulu is an even better example. Think about someone deciding between an OTA DVR and a subscription to Hulu, which provides next-day access to content from three of the big 4 broadcast networks. Are they the exact same thing? No, of course not, but you can see how a consumer would weigh the pros and cons of one solution vs. the other.


yep exactly.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> The point is that SVOD services like Netflix and Hulu are (indirect) competitors to DVRs. Either way, you're getting a broad selection of content available to be watched when one wants (time-shifting/on-demand), with the possibility of avoiding ads. It's not that Netflix is the same thing as a DVR but rather that, for a lot of consumers, it fulfills a lot of the same needs.
> 
> Hulu is an even better example. Think about someone deciding between an OTA DVR and a subscription to Hulu, which provides next-day access to content from three of the big 4 broadcast networks. Are they the exact same thing? No, of course not, but you can see how a consumer would weigh the pros and cons of one solution vs. the other.


Understood. And except that, Netflix just doesn't provide general OTA day-to-day content. And so by no means is a substitute for OTA or a DVR/TiVo box accessing OTA (or cable providing that content). Let alone, doesn't have the capabilities of a TiVo box.*

* And as to Hulu: nope, I don't want to have to wait to the next day for my content (e.g. day-old evening news never has appealed to me, lol), or miss what it _doesn't _cover in the OTA/cable world.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Mikeguy said:


> Not for awhile, no. But Netflix is an additional monthly expense, and it doesn't allow recording, right?


Though the Netflix mobile app_ does_ allow some limited downloading so you can watch shows while offline (such as on flights). Not sure what the restrictions around it are thought; but they'd be more than there would be on a show your DVR recorded.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Video on Demand (VOD) has been around for about 25 years. There's never before been any difficulty understanding the difference between VOD and VCRs/DVRs.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

And VOD of channels you already subscribe to is usually no additional cost. So I don't have to record Game of Thrones, I just watch it using VOD. Or I can use HBO Go. I think Tivo owners forget about VOD because they can't use it.

As far as recording local news, one can just visit their website to read and/or stream stories you're interested in, or download their app.

There are a lot of different ways to get content these days besides a DVR.

Anyway, the main reason Tivo split into two is so they can sell each piece separately. It makes it more attractive to buyers.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> I think Tivo owners forget about VOD because they can't use it.


There is some basic misunderstanding going on in this thread.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> And VOD of channels you already subscribe to is usually no additional cost. So I don't have to record Game of Thrones, I just watch it using VOD. Or I can use HBO Go. I think Tivo owners forget about VOD because they can't use it.
> 
> As far as recording local news, one can just visit their website to read and/or stream stories you're interested in, or download their app.
> 
> *There are a lot of different ways to get content these days besides a DVR.*


You're right. Sometimes the content is available; and, sometimes, not. And sometimes, only with restrictions (e.g. ABC network shows are available a week later on the abc.com website, and then are pulled later). And for local (or network) news, I'm really not interested in working at pulling my own broadcast together the next day by looking at misc. clips at the news station's website (and missing timely weather and traffic reports besides).


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> I think Tivo owners forget about VOD because they can't use it.





Wil said:


> There is some basic misunderstanding going on in this thread.


Apparently!  I use Comcast VOD with my TiVo occasionally if I did happen to miss recording something or to catch something on HBO that I can't record in the near future not to mention Netflix, Amazon Prime and Hulu which I use more often, but much of what we watch is recorded content on our TiVo whether network shows or cable shows including BBCA, Food Network and MotorTrend.

Scott


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> The point is that SVOD services like Netflix and Hulu are (indirect) competitors to DVRs. Either way, you're getting a broad selection of content available to be watched when one wants (time-shifting/on-demand), with the possibility of avoiding ads. It's not that Netflix is the same thing as a DVR but rather that, for a lot of consumers, it fulfills a lot of the same needs.
> 
> Hulu is an even better example. Think about someone deciding between an OTA DVR and a subscription to Hulu, which provides next-day access to content from three of the big 4 broadcast networks. Are they the exact same thing? No, of course not, but you can see how a consumer would weigh the pros and cons of one solution vs. the other.


Hulu is a very good example. When you look in "My Stuff", the queue you put shows into to watch later, when you click on one of the show it actually says "In My Stuff/Will Record" along with "Watch Next Episode". So, it's very easy to see why most folks with streaming would feel the same as they would using a true DVR. Obviously Hulu is not recording it but it sure says it is. Again, for those who like a separate DVR box in their house that's fine. No one is trying to talk them into going cloud or to a streaming replacement. It's just all about having some many great choices that we didn't used to have.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> Hulu is a very good example. When you look in "My Stuff", the queue you put shows into to watch later, when you click on one of the show it actually says "In My Stuff/Will Record" along with "Watch Next Episode". So, it's very easy to see why most folks with streaming would feel the same as they would using a true DVR. Obviously Hulu is not recording it but it sure says it is. Again, for those who like a separate DVR box in their house that's fine. No one is trying to talk them into going cloud or to a streaming replacement. It's just all about having some many great choices that we didn't used to have.


Except Hulu is recording. I mean you aren't watching a live broadcast. You're watching a recording.

Someone is storing the recordings of all shows and giving you access to the recordings whether you want to watch them or not. And letting you have at least a 30 day window to watch the recordings.

These services don't let you own your own personal copy of a recording and keep it with you for eternity as long as your storage holds up. But you don't have the hassle of scheduling and managing recordings either. You just watch what you want to watch.

But really the reason these services are a DVR (and replace a DVR) is because they provide the essential functionality of one. It's not because of a label in the UI. It's not because these services are actually a box with a tuner in it and a hard drive.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

A DVR gives me the ability to keep a recording for however long I want, move it to an iPad/Android device for offline viewing, and I can skip commercials.

OnDemand sometimes has commercials and I need to be in front of my TV or in my home. Some streaming services allow for download of some but not all programs, and some have restrictions on how long I can keep a show or whether or not I can skip commercials. Sometimes content disappears from streaming services due to contracts.

I like streaming but it comes with its own set of pros/cons. Hopefully they don't all raise their prices too much.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

trip1eX said:


> Except Hulu is recording. I mean you aren't watching a live broadcast. You're watching a recording.


Hulu (standard) isn't recording anything. They're streaming video they bought the rights to from the producers. It's a live broadcast directly from Hulu's distribution center to whatever device is pumping it to your screen. It's no more a DVR than a DVD-by-mail service is.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

OrangeCrush said:


> Hulu (standard) isn't recording anything. They're streaming video they bought the rights to from the producers. It's a live broadcast directly from Hulu's distribution center to whatever device is pumping it to your screen. It's no more a DVR than a DVD-by-mail service is.


It's not a live broadcast any more than playing a recording on your Tivo is a live broadcast.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

trip1eX said:


> It's not a live broadcast any more than playing a recording on your Tivo is a live broadcast.


Nor is a "live" broadcast of a previously recorded show, which is the vast majority of cable and broadcast television. It is a broadcast.

This does not make Hulu a DVR in any respect of the term.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

OrangeCrush said:


> Nor is a "live" broadcast of a previously recorded show, which is the vast majority of cable and broadcast television. It is a broadcast.
> 
> This does not make Hulu a DVR in any respect of the term.


PLaying a show from a streaming service like Hulu isn't a broadcast. It isn't being beamed out to everyone at the same time from one source at a designated time.

IT's a recording stored on Hulu's servers. You hit play anytime you want and in a few seconds you start watching it. Just like your Tivo.

IF your neighbor decides to tune in to Hulu 10 minutes later he hasn't missed the first 10 minutes of the same show. He hits play and watches the recording (aka the show) from the beginning.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> PLaying a show from a streaming service like Hulu isn't a broadcast. It isn't being beamed out to everyone at the same time from one source at a designated time.
> 
> IT's a recording stored on Hulu's servers. You hit play anytime you want and in a few seconds you start watching it. Just like your Tivo.
> 
> IF your neighbor decides to tune in to Hulu 10 minutes later he hasn't missed the first 10 minutes of the same show. He hits play and watches the recording (aka the show) from the beginning.


So what you're saying is that except for all the differences they're exactly the same. Got it.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Except Hulu is recording. I mean you aren't watching a live broadcast. You're watching a recording.
> 
> Someone is storing the recordings of all shows and giving you access to the recordings whether you want to watch them or not. And letting you have at least a 30 day window to watch the recordings.
> 
> ...


Do you own a TiVo box or other DVR? You simply keep on ignoring its capabilities as compared to what Hulu or Netflix provides. Perhaps most importantly, recording current (like, right now) content available to a user, of the user's choosing.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Do you own a TiVo box or other DVR? You simply keep on ignoring its capabilities as compared to what Hulu or Netflix provides. Perhaps most importantly, recording current (like, right now) content available to a user, of the user's choosing.


Just because you find a tree that isn't a tree doesn't mean the forest isn't a forest.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Just because you find a tree that isn't a tree doesn't mean the forest isn't a forest.


Thanks--I'll embroider that on my next pillow.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Thanks--I'll embroider that on my next pillow.


In a sense, your pillow is a DVR.


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## GrannyDar (Mar 6, 2015)

This has to be the silliest conversation I've seen in a longtime. I don't know how the TiVo owners held it together as well as they did. Since I have Directv, TiVo, Netflix (streaming & disk), Prime Video and am trying YouTube TV ... had a VCR years ago and rented movies too ... I believe I have a pretty good understanding where different services have their value and limitations. To equate any streaming service with TiVo is short sighted at best. Each service has advantages for a different type viewership. 

Hardware like a TiVo offers audio advantages, as do cable/sat services, for Dolby Digital surround sound. Netflix and Prime video also have offerings. But most other streaming services are PCM with the exceptions being Directv Now and some offerings on Hulu. If you don't care about that fine but don't assume it doesn't matter for all.

DVR's record everything they receive including sports, news, channels not offered with some streaming services, series not offered by Netflix and the like and local programming. Perhaps that too doesn't matter to all but don't disregard it.

TiVo has features that out surpass any other service with perhaps the exception of Dish satellite. Power users appreciate the convenience of this and TiVo's Guide is the best in the business. This is why they have a massive forum devoted to them. 

TiVo hardware has a 3rd party vendor devoted to it where you can opt to have your equipment upgraded/repaired or walked through to upgrade some parts yourself. Alone this makes the equipment worth owning.

And suggesting what someone should need, in terms of amount of content or service providers, is unwarranted snideness.

Personally I am headed to having YouTube TV (for cable channels) and get another TiVo for OTA. This is the best of both worlds. Also, in terms of major networks, it backs each other up as YouTube TV has my locals. That with Netflix and Prime Video (From Prime Membership) completely rounds it out. Dropping Directv saves me money and gives me a lot more flexibility and meets my needs for content. No one has to agree with that but remember, I'm not telling you how to spend your money or time.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Time to ignore this thread. I imagine the world is flat too as I can walk on it without falling off.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

GrannyDar said:


> This has to be the silliest conversation I've seen in a longtime


I give it a B-/C+. We've done better.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> Time to ignore this thread. I imagine the world is flat too as I can walk on it without falling off.


And it's a shame, because the thread topic is an interesting/valid one. It's just the VOD = DVR "argument" has made the thread into the equivalent of an Oregon anti-vaxxer support forum.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> the thread topic is an interesting/valid one


True. I always feel guilty later about the funnin', but look: the serious business was already pretty much over anyway when the faux Socratic dialog on DVRs cut in.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

GrannyDar said:


> This has to be the silliest conversation I've seen in a longtime. I don't know how the TiVo owners held it together as well as they did. Since I have Directv, TiVo, Netflix (streaming & disk), Prime Video and am trying YouTube TV ... had a VCR years ago and rented movies too ... I believe I have a pretty good understanding where different services have their value and limitations. To equate any streaming service with TiVo is short sighted at best. Each service has advantages for a different type viewership.
> 
> Hardware like a TiVo offers audio advantages, as do cable/sat services, for Dolby Digital surround sound. Netflix and Prime video also have offerings. But most other streaming services are PCM with the exceptions being Directv Now and some offerings on Hulu. If you don't care about that fine but don't assume it doesn't matter for all.
> 
> ...


YOu're completely missing the pt. It's not a conversation about anyone telling you what content to watch or what to use. It is not a conversation about the best value today for the content you want to watch the way you want to watch it.

IT's a big picture business discussion. Note the thread topic. IT's all to do with Tivo's business and discussing why they might be splitting into 2 companies and the future of it.

I use a Tivo most every day and have owned one for at least 14 years.

When I say NEtflix is a DVR. IT doesn't mean Netflix is for you nor that it serves all your content needs. It is called a metaphor or an example. The point being tv is moving to streaming and in the streaming world on a service like Netflix (Netflix being the poster child for streaming services) you don't need a DVR because the service performs all the essential functionality of a DVR.

YOu can say oh it doesn't cover this base or that base, it can't do this or that and you'd be right but the forest is still there. The big major functionality that the market uses a DVR for is covered by a streaming service.

So somewhere in the future whatever streaming service or services you subscribe to, you'll HAVE all the essential functionality of a dVR without having to buy a $1000 box. That is the future Tivo is facing.

Sure some of you might not like it. MIght see that the new way lost a few perks that the old way (recording shows with a Tivo) offered but overall, in the big picture, the market is not going to stop it's adoption nor not move that direction just because a few people liked the old way and don't want to go along with it.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Wil said:


> In a sense, your pillow is a DVR.


It does record more than Netflix and Hulu combined do.

BTW, who woke the troll back up? Shame on that person.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> Do you own a TiVo box or other DVR? You simply keep on ignoring its capabilities as compared to what Hulu or Netflix provides. Perhaps most importantly, recording current (like, right now) content available to a user, of the user's choosing.


And even more importantly to some, the ability to keep and watch that content as long as they want. That is the basic difference that triple can't argue with that makes a DVR different than a streaming service.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> And even more importantly to some, the ability to keep and watch that content as long as they want. That is the basic difference that triple can't argue with that makes a DVR different than a streaming service.


Officially, you keep the content until the DVR's hard drive dies. Around 5 years or so (if you're lucky). Unofficially, there are unsupported third-party apps., but I'm not sure it's fair to include them in the conversation.

Plus, I've seen The Avengers shown on TV dozens of times. I don't need to archive it. Conversely, I have four full tapes of The Muppet Show and WKRP which aren't re-aired yet I still can't watch them because I don't have a VCR anymore. I have a Series 1 that has a few archived shows on it, but I don't bother powering it on to watch them.

So it just depends if you want to be at the mercy of corporations like Netflix or at the mercy of obsolete technology. The tiebreaker is that quite a few of these shows can be streamed on Youtube or elsewhere on the Internet. And if someone else wants to do all the hard work of archiving it for me, that's more free time for me.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Wil said:


> In a sense, your pillow is a DVR.


So **that's** why the Bolt is white with a hump in the middle!


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> Officially, you keep the content until the DVR's hard drive dies. Around 5 years or so (if you're lucky).


Or, in my case on my still operational Toshiba Series 2 TiVo box, 13+ years.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> Officially, you keep the content until the DVR's hard drive dies. Around 5 years or so (if you're lucky). Unofficially, there are unsupported third-party apps., but I'm not sure it's fair to include them in the conversation.
> 
> Plus, I've seen The Avengers shown on TV dozens of times. I don't need to archive it. Conversely, I have four full tapes of The Muppet Show and WKRP which aren't re-aired yet I still can't watch them because I don't have a VCR anymore. I have a Series 1 that has a few archived shows on it, but I don't bother powering it on to watch them.
> 
> So it just depends if you want to be at the mercy of corporations like Netflix or at the mercy of obsolete technology. The tiebreaker is that quite a few of these shows can be streamed on Youtube or elsewhere on the Internet. And if someone else wants to do all the hard work of archiving it for me, that's more free time for me.


More free time to watch tv lol. One only has so much time to watch tv. The bigger a collection gets the less of it that is ever going to be watched anyway.


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## Gordon Currie (Mar 7, 2019)

trip1eX said:


> When I say NEtflix is a DVR. IT doesn't mean Netflix is for you nor that it serves all your content needs. It is called a metaphor or an example. The point being tv is moving to streaming and in the streaming world on a service like Netflix (Netflix being the poster child for streaming services) you don't need a DVR because the service performs all the essential functionality of a DVR.


Clearly you don't know what DVR stands for. I'll help you out. Digital Video Recorder.

Netflix is not a DVR for me, or for you, or for anyone, because you can't record digital video with it.

Metaphor and example all you want, but that doesn't change that fact.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Gordon Currie said:


> Clearly you don't know what DVR stands for. I'll help you out. Digital Video Recorder.
> 
> Netflix is not a DVR for me, or for you, or for anyone, because you can't record digital video with it.
> 
> Metaphor and example all you want, but that doesn't change that fact.


I think the issue is who is doing the recording. Most of us consider that it's the consumer and not where it's stored.
I can see a situation where the DVR is a cloud service but we have to request something to be recorded for it to be available as compared to to the service making it available after the fact. Tivo could be considered an example of that when you use it remotely and stream it to your mobile device.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> And even more importantly to some, the ability to keep and watch that content as long as they want. That is the basic difference that triple can't argue with that makes a DVR different than a streaming service.


I for one am not arguing what makes a hardware DVR different. I'm just saying the number of people who want to keep things literally forever is so small that not many really care. Some people call any DVR a TiVo but I think we all know what they're talking about. I still call all tissues Kleenex. Streaming services are trying as hard as they can to make their products as similar and familiar to use as a DVD player or cable box DVR so they setup the controls to mimic a DVR. I have a friend who says he has XYZ movie "recorded" in his wishlist on Netflix. It's no big deal.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mschnebly said:


> I have a friend who says he has XYZ movie "recorded" in his wishlist on Netflix. It's no big deal.


Netflix could decide on a whim, tomorrow, to insert unskippable commercials every minute and a half, with banner promotions continually, and edit the film for content, and reduce the quality because they're having bandwidth issues, and substitute another version of the film, or eliminate pause/RW/FF capability, or do anything else they pleased or totally remove it without notice due to a licensing challenge or whatever.

It's video on demand, a last century concept; not something new that should be confusing to anybody.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mschnebly said:


> I for one am not arguing what makes a hardware DVR different. I'm just saying the number of people who want to keep things literally forever is so small that not many really care. Some people call any DVR a TiVo but I think we all know what they're talking about. I still call all tissues Kleenex. Streaming services are trying as hard as they can to make their products as similar and familiar to use as a DVD player or cable box DVR so they setup the controls to mimic a DVR. I have a friend who says he has XYZ movie "recorded" in his wishlist on Netflix. It's no big deal.


Exactly and it's not even that streaming services are mimicking DVR controls. IT's that the purpose of a DVR for the 95% of the market is to time shift tv and pause tv and ff/rw. And Netflix does all that as does the HBO streaming and Showtime etc. Thus no need for a DVR. These services do that essential functionality and thus they are DVRs.

Now if a person reads that and thinks the argument is that Netflix and Tivo are exact clones then they have reading comprehension issues.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Wil said:


> Netflix could decide on a whim, tomorrow, to insert unskippable commercials every minute and a half, with banner promotions continually, and edit the film for content, and reduce the quality because they're having bandwidth issues, and substitute another version of the film, or eliminate pause/RW/FF capability, or do anything else they pleased or totally remove it without notice due to a licensing challenge or whatever.
> 
> It's video on demand, a last century concept; not something new that should be confusing to anybody.


Well you will be glad to know that you can keep your hardware DVR and not have to worry about that.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Exactly and it's not even that streaming services are mimicking DVR controls. IT's that the purpose of a DVR for the 95% of the market is to time shift tv and pause tv and ff/rw. And Netflix does all that as does the HBO streaming and Showtime etc. Thus no need for a DVR. These services do that essential functionality and thus they are DVRs.
> 
> Now if a person reads that and thinks the argument is that Netflix and Tivo are exact clones then they have reading comprehension issues.


Yes, if you only want and are content with the limited capabilities that Netflix et al. offer, there is no need for a DVR. But that does not, despite your wild claim, somehow make Netflix et al.'s services into DVRs.

And if you want all the capabilities that a TiVo box and other DVRs offer (which is significantly beyond what Netflix et al. offer, including on such a basic level as having access to local and broadcast network content and on a timely basis), you will want to keep your DVR.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Netflix taped my show last night, so glad Netflix is a great VCR, I wonder if they are using Beta-Max or VHS ?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Let's keep this silly semantics game going! Is a "cloud DVR" a "DVR"? Why or why not?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

A fish is a DVR. I mean, you consume what each of them offers.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Let's keep this silly semantics game going! Is a "cloud DVR" a "DVR"? Why or why not?


If you have a Tivo and its located at some other location like your parents house or your cabin and you watch it on a mobile device then its a cloud DVR.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

foghorn2 said:


> Netflix taped my show last night, so glad Netflix is a great VCR, I wonder if they are using Beta-Max or VHS ?


They're using 'Baymax"


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> Netflix taped my show last night, so glad Netflix is a great VCR, I wonder if they are using Beta-Max or VHS ?


3/4" U-Matic. Or maybe EIAJ-2 reel-to-reel.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mschnebly said:


> I have a friend who says he has XYZ movie "recorded" in his wishlist on Netflix. It's no big deal.


And then Netflix will dump that movie. Poof, no more 'recording'.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> And then Netflix will dump that movie. Poof, no more 'recording'.


Your Biscuit is indeed slow....

Its still a VCR, someone just took a big powerful magnet to it 

Quit arguing, NETFLIX IS A VCR!!!


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> Quit arguing, NETFLIX IS A VCR!!!


... and if grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon.

(not Scotty, and NOT to be taken as a zoom, I'm in)


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Yep no need for a DVR because the streaming services perform all the essential functionality of a DVR. Not only that they are essentially becoming free DVRs as well because the capability to receive the streaming services are built-into almost all tvs nowadays and do so at a level that is starting to rival streaming boxes. 

But yet we're going to pretend they aren't dvrs because you can't archive a recording for 30 years? That's nonsense. A few care about that. 99%+ of the market do not.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Unfortunately, you're simply repeating yourself, while continuing to ignore and failing to recognize the distinguishing realities as pointed out by others here (including as basic as the "R" in DVR), and while attempting to generalize your seemingly limited use pattern to the world-at-large. A far cry from the thread's original, valid topic.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Live events like news and sports are problematic if you wait too long to watch them because you're likely to hear the outcome from another source. The best approach I've found is to wait until the event is halfway over and then start watching the DVR recording from the beginning and skip commercials. That way you finish watching close to the time the live event actually ends. I think most VOD services won't have a live event available until long after it's over.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> *I think most VOD services won't have a live event available until long after it's over.*


If ever.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Well unless you subscribe directly like NHL Game Center.


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

Its probably too late but a headless Tivo similar to Recast with cablecard support would have been nice. Not sure who is going to be interested in developing new Tivo hardware products at this point.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

NBA League Pass has a commercial free option. However it doesn't save you any time because the commercial breaks are built into the game. but you see what goes on in the arena during the commercials instead of the commercials. It also puts up replays of games not too long after the game is over. They also have 20 minute replays of games alongside the replays. And you have the option of listening to the home or away broadcast when watching live or watching the replay. 

STreaming sports options include ESPN+, NBC Sports gold, DAZN, NBA League Pass, NHL, MLB, NFL, ... afaik all have replays.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ric hardt said:


> Its probably too late but a headless Tivo similar to Recast with cablecard support would have been nice. Not sure who is going to be interested in developing new Tivo hardware products at this point.


I'll be shocked if we ever see any new TiVo models with CableCARD.

But keep your eye on this upcoming product if you want to go the headless CableCARD DVR route:
HDHomeRun PRIME 6 - Silicon Dust


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> STreaming sports options include ESPN+, NBC Sports gold, DAZN, NBA League Pass, NHL, MLB, NFL, ... afaik all have replays.


But only *DVRs *let you chase-watch a live event in progress and skip commercials. I do this ALL the time.

Yet another fundamental diff that you fail to comprehend.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> But only *DVRs *let you chase-watch a live event in progress and skip commercials. I do this ALL the time.
> 
> Yet another fundamental diff that you fail to comprehend.


lol. You failed to comprehend what the discussion was even about. And I "chase-watched" a live event last night on my Tivo. YOu're preaching to the choir.

And your Tivo would still be a DVR even if you couldn't chase-watch a live sporting event. With your logic anything that doesn't have a feature Tivo has isn't a DVR. (eyeroll.)

Nevermind nothing technically stopping any streaming service from having a "chase-watch" feature. Whether or not they would allow it is another question. But considering something like NBA League has a commercial-free option already, ...and posts condensed 20 minute replays shortly after a game ends, I don't see why that wouldn't be a reasonable possibility.

Nevermind again I can't speak for every sports streaming service. For all I know some have this feature already.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The point, made repeatedly with examples here, is that only DVRs give you full control over the content because it's your recording, not some service.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

It's like you're trying to prove a point that everyone already knows. Fact is that for *most* people they don't care what the difference is as long as they can press play, rew or ff. Absolutely no one is trying to stop you from using your TiVo with all the TiVo features whenever you want. For *most* people, streaming is just a very good way to watch video. If someone comes out with a miracle DVR, unless it's free, *most* people still wont care.


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## ke3ju (Jan 5, 2004)

Wow, this thread took a heard left turn...


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

ke3ju said:


> Wow, this thread took a heard left turn...


 All the way back on page 1!!


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

NashGuy said:


> But keep your eye on this upcoming product if you want to go the headless CableCARD DVR route:
> HDHomeRun PRIME 6 - Silicon Dust


I would be all in for a Prime 6 if there was an option for TiVo software or something else besides Silicon Dust DVR because I don't really care for their tile based interface.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ric hardt said:


> I would be all in for a Prime 6 if there was an option for TiVo software or something else besides Silicon Dust DVR because I don't really care for their tile based interface.


Yeah, Silicon Dust's own software isn't great but you can use any Silicon Dust tuner with DVR software from Channels or Plex on popular streaming devices.


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, Silicon Dust's own software isn't great but you can use any Silicon Dust tuner with DVR software from Channels or Plex on popular streaming devices.


I didn't think Plex or Channels would support cable company DRM?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

ric hardt said:


> I didn't think Plex or Channels would support cable company DRM?


That would be correct, for Plex at least. From the Plex FAQ:

*Are channels encrypted with DRM supported?*
_Channels encrypted or protected with DRM of any kind are not currently supported. What channels are encrypted depends on the channel provider. Generally "premium" channels are always encrypted, but again it varies by provider.

_


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Diana Collins said:


> That would be correct, for Plex at least. From the Plex FAQ:
> 
> *Are channels encrypted with DRM supported?*
> _Channels encrypted or protected with DRM of any kind are not currently supported. What channels are encrypted depends on the channel provider. Generally "premium" channels are always encrypted, but again it varies by provider.
> _


Plex is mainly used for pirated files anyway. And im sure they know what pirated files you have.


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

With upcoming apps and no signs of new consumer hardware, I guess we can wish for Tivo DVR server software although not holding my breath.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Diana Collins said:


> That would be correct, for Plex at least. From the Plex FAQ:
> 
> *Are channels encrypted with DRM supported?*
> _Channels encrypted or protected with DRM of any kind are not currently supported. What channels are encrypted depends on the channel provider. Generally "premium" channels are always encrypted, but again it varies by provider.
> _


For many cable providers, the only channels that you couldn't use with an SD tuner and software from Plex or Channels would be premium channels from HBO, Showtime, Starz, Cinemax and Epix. But then you can just subscribe to those channels as streaming services with full on-demand libraries (with better HD PQ, to boot), so many folks wouldn't see that as a problem. Presumably if one wants to use the Plex or Channels app as the front-end for their cable TV service, then they're already using an app-based streaming device such as Apple TV, Roku, etc. Not a huge deal to jump over to the Showtime app.


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

Sadly all cable channels are DRM protected here so the only current option besides cable company DVR is Tivo or Silicon Dust DVR


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ric hardt said:


> Sadly all cable channels are DRM protected here so the only current option besides cable company DVR is Tivo or Silicon Dust DVR


Channels -- which works with Silicon Dust tuners -- says they are "working on DTCP-IP certification and plan to support DRM channels in the future." You can read more here:
Channels - Frequently Asked Questions


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

Channels DVR looks great but it doesn't look like support for DRM channels is going to happen

An update on DRM support


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ric hardt said:


> Channels DVR looks great but it doesn't look like support for DRM channels is going to happen
> 
> An update on DRM support


Interesting. Well, sorry to hear that. Can't blame Channels, though. No offense, but folks in your category -- those who want a non-TiVo retail CableCARD solution that supports DRM on traditional linear-channel-based cable TV -- are a niche inside of a niche inside of a niche. Hope you find something else that works for you.


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## ric hardt (Jan 9, 2019)

You are correct about it being a niche need. We'll enjoy the Tivo and Minis as long as we can.


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