# Battlestar Galactica 5/9 "Faith" *spoilers*



## orome (Dec 30, 2004)

What, no thread already? Interest must be slipping. 

Nice to see


Spoiler



Kira Juriss


 on board.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I can't recall, is she the first Trek alum on BSG?

Oh, and when will it get good again?


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## dfergie (Aug 27, 2006)

Unlike most here... I have been enjoying this Season. I recognized Nana Visitor as soon as I heard her voice.


Spoiler



I'm wondering how they are going to get the (3's) De'anna unboxed...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Actually I thought it was a fine episode. As I'd hoped there was some focus on the Cylon Civil War. Great scenes of the wrecked BaseStars and as Buck's crew interacted with the 6s & 8s. That Nat is a cold witch. Slightly disappointed that unlike much earlier when Boomah first met her 'sisters' en masse, this time they were clothed. Can't have everything.

Why are those things spoilers???


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I also thought this was a fine episode - 
just goes to show how much the Gaius Baltar and Chief storylines have been dragging down the episodes over the last few weeks...

ZERO Baltar = OK in my book. :up:


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Well, not completely Baltar-less, since we had to listen to him drone on .... still, this was the first episode this season that I didn't FF through half of it.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I thought the blood-for-blood scene with one 6 offing the other was very well done. 

Unlike the other three of the five we know about; I'm enjoying Anders' character development since he found out. So glad there was no Chief or Tory this week.

Roslin's hospital scenes were putting me to sleep, though.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Yeah, I skipped Roslyn's crap.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I was reading TV Guide or some such at they had Katee Sackhoff in there twice in their "Sexiest" list. They had a solo shot and writeup plus a sci-fi chick only breakdown where she was 4th runner up. Hell, she's not 5th hottest chick on BSG.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I don't find her attractive at all, actually.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I thought the blood-for-blood scene with one 6 offing the other was very well done.
> 
> Unlike the other three of the five we know about; I'm enjoying Anders' character development since he found out. So glad there was no Chief or Tory this week.
> 
> Roslin's hospital scenes were putting me to sleep, though.


Anders' quandry is interesting character development. I find it perplexing that the same writers who can give us stuff like Anders' situation, blood-for-blood, excellent cylon vs cylon dialog scenes also spend tens of minutes draging out Baltar spouting utter nonsense and pretentious Ros scenes that drag on and on. And thanks for ruining Chief as a character of interest.

Back on positive, I can't wait for the un-boxing and the potential for suspense as the crew returns to BSG searching for recognition of the Fab Five.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I don't find her attractive at all, actually.


+1 She is neither sexy or attractive to me. I was stunned to see no trace of Tricia or Grace in the list; Katee's PR dude must be part Jedi.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

orome said:


> What, no thread already? Interest must be slipping.
> 
> Nice to see
> 
> ...


Kira Nerys. I don't know who Kira Juriss is. I, too, recognized Nana Visitor's voice when she opened her mouth, but couldn't place it until I saw her face.

Greg


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

I was very pleased with this episode. Finally, they give me a reason to like a few characters again, instead of just making them all morally reprehensible with no likable qualities.

I've been putting DS9 episodes on my iPod lately, so I recognized Nana Visitor by her voice. The makeup artist did a pretty good job on her in the hospital. And when I saw her on the ferry, I was pleasantly surprised at how well time has treated her. She's still very pretty.



IndyJones1023 said:


> Yeah, I skipped Roslyn's crap.


I hope you at least watched the scene towards the end, where Roslyn was talking about the death of her mother. That was one of the best scenes for Mary McDonnell in a while.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I can't recall, is she the first Trek alum on BSG?
> 
> Oh, and when will it get good again?


I didn't know it was her until I read this thread. I knew she looked familiar, but couldn't place her.

There have been others who have guested on Star Trek that appeared here, but I don't think any major regulars have. The one that pops in my head was Baltar's lawyer. He played Icheb's father on Voyager for one episode. A fairly obscure reference at best.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I didn't know it was her until I read this thread. I knew she looked familiar, but couldn't place her.
> 
> There have been others who have guested on Star Trek that appeared here, but I don't think any major regulars have. The one that pops in my head was Baltar's lawyer. He played Icheb's father on Voyager for one episode. A fairly obscure reference at best.


I met him at Megacon this year. Great guy.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I thought it was an excellent episode. And being a mammoth DS9 fan, (Star Trek will NEVER be that good again) I was pleased as punch to see Nana Visitor again. I agree, time has been good to her in the ten years since DS9 ended.

That scene with Roslin remembering her mother got me. _Really got me_.

Athena telling off the lost lamb Sharons was priceless, and totally believable.

And I didn't see Sam Anders coming at all. When he shot Gaeta, was he acting as a husband protecting his wife? As a soldier protecting the C.O? Or was the Cylon programming kicking in?

Kara's special destiny is all fraked up. What the hell is she going to do now?

Me no smoke-em peace pipe. Anyone that thinks the show's writing has gone to hell probably prefers something with one-dimensional characters, epic space battles and flying motorcycles.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> Me no smoke-em peace pipe. Anyone that thinks the show's writing has gone to hell probably prefers something with one-dimensional characters, epic space battles and flying motorcycles.


See, you had me until this point. I'm a huge supporter of the show, and have followed it fairly ravenously since the miniseries. I've gotten people hooked on the show back during the early days.

But the show's heyday is still in the past tense, and Season Four isn't doing a lot to endear itself to me. I agree, this was a great episode, but look at the last few before it. The show's writing is still too hit-and-miss. Or rather, it's still too hit-and-miss-and-miss-and-miss. This one good episode doesn't really make up for the other filler stuff we've had to go through the past few weeks.


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## orome (Dec 30, 2004)

Sorry about the wrong last name; got her confused with a friend of mine who does Klingon play.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Skittles said:


> But the show's heyday is still in the past tense, and Season Four isn't doing a lot to endear itself to me. I agree, this was a great episode, but look at the last few before it. The show's writing is still too hit-and-miss. Or rather, it's still too hit-and-miss-and-miss-and-miss. This one good episode doesn't really make up for the other filler stuff we've had to go through the past few weeks.


And yet, none of S4's episodes were nowhere near as bad as "The Woman King" or "Hero"- the big stinkers of S3. The viewer ratings at Television Without Pity and TV.com have rated S4's episodes fairly high (A-, B+) and I'm simply not seeing the grand decline in quality you describe. I don't think the show has lost it's way. And I don't fault Ron Moore for making it up as he went- because that's how most TV shows are made. Moore probably never envisioned that his Battlestar, _*a remake of a cheese-ridden one-season space-opera from 1978*_, would live past season two.

Sometimes you need a lot of preamble to tell a bigger story. I'm cutting the show that slack. Battlestar is still good character-driven drama, so I'll still watch it and I'll still praise it.

But for those that are screaming "get on with it," I truly wonder if they'll be happier with an epic space battle or a flying motorcycle instead.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> Me no smoke-em peace pipe. Anyone that thinks the show's writing has gone to hell probably prefers something with one-dimensional characters, epic space battles and flying motorcycles.


You could advance discussion more constructively by responding to the many well-documented, specific criticisms rather than seting up a strawman by attributing tastes to critics that they actually probably don't have.

I did not notice the well informed critics here making up faux personal attributes to characterize and denigrate those opposed to any criticism.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

philw1776 said:


> I did not notice the well informed critics here making up faux personal attributes to characterize and denigrate those opposed to any criticism.


From last week's thread.



whitson77 said:


> Agreed, but I'm echoing most people here when I say this season is a failure. Anyone calling this show intelligently written needs to lay off the peace pipe.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Point well taken!

By your command.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> That scene with Roslin remembering her mother got me. _Really got me_.


I hope you meant the crying scene because the scene on the river took me right out of the show because I was stunned to see that Roslin's mother was BARBARA BUSH!


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## the928guy (Sep 30, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> I find it perplexing that the same writers ... spend tens of minutes draging out Baltar spouting utter nonsense ...


Well, it's not *all* nonsense. Just as the President is meeting Kira Nerys for the first time, we hear Baltar on the radio reciting, word for word, Hamlet's "To be, or not to be" soliloquy. Specifically, you can hear, "shuffled off this mortal coil," then he skips a bit ahead to, "The undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns." So Baltar isn't the Messiah, he's the Bard.

I'm beginning to wish for flying motorcycles.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I hope you meant the crying scene because the scene on the river took me right out of the show because I was stunned to see that Roslin's mother was BARBARA BUSH!


The crying scene. The monologue about her ending up changing her once-pillar-of-strength mother's diapers.

Been there.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

the928guy said:


> Well, it's not *all* nonsense. Just as the President is meeting Kira Nerys for the first time, we hear Baltar on the radio reciting, word for word, Hamlet's "To be, or not to be" soliloquy. Specifically, you can hear, "shuffled off this mortal coil," then he skips a bit ahead to, "The undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns." So Baltar isn't the Messiah, he's the Bard.
> 
> I'm beginning to wish for flying motorcycles.


Funny thing is, I caught that but it didn't occur to me until now that Baltar would have no idea who Shakespeare was.

First All Along the Watchtower, and now this. Are the Cylons picking up radio signals from Earth?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

finally...a great episode...enjoyed every second of it...even the part with the president was not boring to me but very interesting...

I think Anders acted quite normally...he was not part of the mutiny and he protected his captain...

it was very well written...even that girl saying "I'm OK" just before collapsing and dying...

I think Seelix is by far the sexiest woman on the show...wish she could have a bigger role...

my only complaint is how they jump right in the middle of debris or back right on top of the other ship...which is totally bogus...they always made a big deal about jumping a safe distance from PLANETS (which makes sense) and now they're jumping in the middle of moving ship debris? but clearly a nit-pick that I can easily ignore...

I'm very hopeful now that the show can be back on track :up:


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Anubys said:


> finally...a great episode...enjoyed every second of it...even the part with the president was not boring to me but very interesting...
> 
> I think Anders acted quite normally...he was not part of the mutiny and he protected his captain...
> 
> ...


Love'd the "I'm OK" touch.

Notice Anders' struggle with his starbuck relationship and the Cylon issues. He started to reach his hand into the Cylon hand bath thingy and then quickly withdrew. Trying to relate to Starbuck whom he suspects of some Cylon relationship?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

"Wow"...yes....


latrobe7 said:


> ...Roslin's hospital scenes were putting me to sleep, though.


the Roslyn parts were SO bad....I literally tuned out each time....

CGI was good this week, I'll give it that.

I'd give this ep a "B"


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Rosincrans said:


> Funny thing is, I caught that but it didn't occur to me until now that Baltar would have no idea who Shakespeare was.
> 
> First All Along the Watchtower, and now this. Are the Cylons picking up radio signals from Earth?


Something was mentioned on the Basestar that I've been thinking for a while. I can't remember the exact wording, but it boiled down to "The final 5 are part of the 13th colony, and know the way to earth because they've come from there." It gives me a lot of hope--first, it means that the final 5 are much different than standard "skinjobs", and it means that the various earth connections make more and more sense.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

When the president first went to Nana Visitor the Baltar "sermon" was talking about the "undiscovered country". Not sure if that was an accident but that was also the name of one of the Star Trek's movies while they were introducing an ex-Star Trek actor.

J


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

i really enjoyed this episode and hope the rest of the series is like this one rather than some of the earlier episodes (esp those focused on Baltar)


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

doom1701 said:


> Something was mentioned on the Basestar that I've been thinking for a while. I can't remember the exact wording, but it boiled down to "The final 5 are part of the 13th colony, and know the way to earth because they've come from there." It gives me a lot of hope--first, it means that the final 5 are much different than standard "skinjobs", and it means that the various earth connections make more and more sense.


It also seems to utterly ignore the time line (as usual), at least as far as I can tell. If the final 5 came from Earth, then I think they are really the "first" five and not the final five. The other cylons have been programmed not the think about the final 5. How could that be unless the final five were there when the other cylons were programmed.

Kind of makes you head spin.

I liked the episode but, as usual, when I try to get individual events to fit into some kind of meaningful framework it all falls apart.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

pkscout said:


> It also seems to utterly ignore the time line (as usual), at least as far as I can tell. If the final 5 came from Earth, then I think they are really the "first" five and not the final five. The other cylons have been programmed not the think about the final 5. How could that be unless the final five were there when the other cylons were programmed.
> 
> Kind of makes you head spin.
> 
> I liked the episode but, as usual, when I try to get individual events to fit into some kind of meaningful framework it all falls apart.


I think the final in the Final 5 refers to the fact that they are the last 5 to be revealed, not the last 5 cylons to be created. In fact, IIRC, the "Final 5" were supposed pre-date the current skinjobs.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

RBlount said:


> I think the final in the Final 5 refers to the fact that they are the last 5 to be revealed, not the last 5 cylons to be created. In fact, IIRC, the "Final 5" were supposed pre-date the current skinjobs.


Exactly. So it's the final 5 from a storyteller perspective. But in the BSG world, it would be the first 5. So why is everyone calling them the final 5? It makes no sense.

Oh right, RDM doesn't care.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

pkscout said:


> I liked the episode but, as usual, when I try to get individual events to fit into some kind of meaningful framework it all falls apart.


Welcome to the world of BSG!!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pkscout said:


> It also seems to utterly ignore the time line (as usual), at least as far as I can tell. If the final 5 came from Earth, then I think they are really the "first" five and not the final five. The other cylons have been programmed not the think about the final 5. How could that be unless the final five were there when the other cylons were programmed.


And why are they the Final 5 if Boomer is Number 8?

Then again, when they numbered Boomer 8 they didn't know there was going to be a Final 5.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

No, no, no. This will all be revealed later when we learn that Boomer was mis-numbered and that the Final 5 are really 7 as two more wicked surprising late Cylon entries are revealed as a result of a stimulant enhanced late night writing session. Creativity knows no bounds. 

And...they have a plan!


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Other than the first ep of season 4, I'm glad that this was finally another good ep and not yet another so-so ep.



jwjody said:


> When the president first went to Nana Visitor the Baltar "sermon" was talking about the "undiscovered country". Not sure if that was an accident but that was also the name of one of the Star Trek's movies while they were introducing an ex-Star Trek actor.
> 
> J


Yeah, I thought it was pretty amusing that the "undiscovered country" was thrown in there. I think it was a pretty intentional reference to Star Trek just like the recent 1701D reference.



philw1776 said:


> also spend tens of minutes draging out Baltar spouting utter nonsense and pretentious Ros scenes that drag on and on.


I've wondered about Baltar's role in this season. He's just been babbling non-sense in the eps before this and his harem has just been eating this up. At least they relegated this to the background this time. Do the writers just not having anything good to write or are they just trying to make a statement about cults?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cwerdna said:


> I've wondered about Baltar's role in this season. He's just been babbling non-sense in the eps before this and his harem has just been eating this up. At least they relegated this to the background this time. Do the writers just not having anything good to write or are they just trying to make a statement about cults?


I think they kind of wrote themselves into a corner when, in the early seasons, they put Baltar forth as a Cylon savior figure. Now that they're taking the Cylon mythology as literally true, they have to have Baltar literally a savior figure. But either they can't find a way to make it interesting, or they're going somewhere unexpected with it.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

With the revelation that the writers are pulling scripts directly out of their asses, I figure at this point that background Baltar speeches are just mandated from the higher ups to the junior writers: "fill 10 minutes of dialog."


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

Was it my imagination, or did Roslyn look disappointed when she saw the radio still on next to Emily's empty bed? It's almost like she wondered if her subconscious was picking up Baltar's speech about the river and creating her dream/vision for her.

Or maybe I'm just biased about my own opinion about the root of religion.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

I think she was disappointed that the radio was the only thing left; she was disappointed to find it broadcasting to an empty bed.


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## EchoBravo (Apr 20, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> I thought it was an excellent episode. And being a mammoth DS9 fan, (Star Trek will NEVER be that good again) I was pleased as punch to see Nana Visitor again. I agree, time has been good to her in the ten years since DS9 ended.


:up: She looked great. And yeah, the voice gives her away instantly



TonyD79 said:


> I was stunned to see that Roslin's mother was BARBARA BUSH!


LOL - Yes! WTF on the casting there!? It was as jarring as Hummer H1s on New Caprica


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I can't recall, is she the first Trek alum on BSG?


Michelle Forbes, who played Admiral Cain on BSG had a brief recurring role on TNG as Ensign Ro, a Bajoran member of Starfleet.



TonyD79 said:


> I was stunned to see that Roslin's mother was BARBARA BUSH!


Who else would the mother of the President look like?


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## SteveInNC (Jun 23, 2005)

*HEAVY SPOILERS - not spoiler-tagged*

re: quality of the series.

I have a fairly unique perspective on this, because I just watched most of S3 and all of S4 up to this point for the first time in a single marathon session over the weekend. Of course, the _one_ episode that didn't get DVRed was the one where the crew members "discovered" that they were Cylons (sigh...).

I quit watching BSG after S2 because the whole thing was beginning to turn into Days of Our Lives in Space. I like that the crew are shown to have actual lives and interpersonal relationships outside of the main thrust of the show, but alot of the plot lines and personal relationships seemed forced: "we really need to manufacture some drama here: let's make Adama's wife a shrew who abused her sons". Joss Whedon merges this stuff much better...

I'm disappointed in the return-of-Starbuck plot line - they really could have had her ship _not_ blow up, but simply disappear in the clouds with presumption that she crashed. The return in a "perfect" ship is either a heavy-handed foretelling that she is some variant of a duplicate, whether Cylon or not, or the writers are just trying recover from an "oops!" in the plot. The plot that had Starbuck following her feeling/instinct/telepathy/whatever to lead them to Earth was OK, but then takes the right-turn that she was leading them to Anders, who says that they have to get the hybrid to tell them where Earth is, and of course the hybrid mainly freaks Starbuck by telling her that she is the Harbinger of Death (as I recall... after XX hours of episodes, the plot twists were starting to get a bit murky for me).

I am more pleased by the meta-plot that seems to have the humans becoming more robotic while the Cylons seem to be becoming more human. I find very few of the human crew to be likeable anymore. While some might argue that this ambivalence towards the characters is an intentional plot device, to me, it makes me just not give a crap what happens to them anymore - I'm divorced from involvement with the characters.

The "freed" Cylon soldiers and the affection for the fighter ships as shown by Six adds an interesting new wrinkle and plot possibilties, and arguably parallels the episode with the refinery union going on strike, leading to a discussion of class-society.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I enjoyed this episode.
Then again, I skipped over everything that didn't deal with the away team.


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

In my opinion this was the best episode this season. I'll have to go home and rewind the whole "final 5... from the 13th... opera house.." diatribe from Harriet Tubman so I can try and decipher what the hell she was saying. Anybody remember the exact wording?

And the fact that we are barely on page 2 of this thread shows how the first 4 episodes turned people off. 

Thankfully we didnt' have to see Baltar this episode, only listen to him, and even more thanks we didn't see Chief in his Full Metal Jacket mode.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

sjgmoney said:


> ...And the fact that we are barely on page 2 of this thread shows how the first 4 episodes turned people off.....


Hmmm....I'm still on page 1....


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> "Wow"...yes....
> 
> the Roslyn parts were SO bad....I literally tuned out each time....


Wow, did you miss out on what I thought were the best parts of an excellent episode. These quiet moments have their place, too, and I thought these scenes were a nice balance to what were going on inside the base star.

The problem with BSG (or any show with a serialized storyline, like Lost) is that you inevitably have episodes that are all setup and some that are payoff. The payoff episodes are almost always perceived better than the setup episodes, even though both are equally important.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

aintnosin said:


> Wow, did you miss out on what I thought were the best parts of an excellent episode. These quiet moments have their place, too, and I thought these scenes were a nice balance to what were going on inside the base star.


I agree. I like it when we get to see the characters actually feeling something; of course, I liked some of the other episodes this season as well (and I really liked the Chief/Baltar centric episode a week or so ago).


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## Mishkin (Apr 20, 2002)

sjgmoney said:


> And the fact that we are barely on page 2 of this thread shows how the first 4 episodes turned people off.


I personally stopped following the BSG threads because every third post seemed to be a variation of "...the writers are on crack...".


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Better.

- Credit Where Credit is Due Dept.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I think Anders acted quite normally...he was not part of the mutiny and he protected his captain...
> 
> my only complaint is how they jump right in the middle of debris or back right on top of the other ship...which is totally bogus...they always made a big deal about jumping a safe distance from PLANETS (which makes sense) and now they're jumping in the middle of moving ship debris? but clearly a nit-pick that I can easily ignore...


I thought Anders was doing the correct thing in the face of a mutiny too. I was surprised that his one shot did so much damage though. He should have gone for a simple shot through a leg muscle.

Is this the first time we have seen a jump from the POV of inside a small ship? It seemed really well done, and I can't remember haveing seen anything like that before.



philw1776 said:


> Notice Anders' struggle with his starbuck relationship and the Cylon issues. He started to reach his hand into the Cylon hand bath thingy and then quickly withdrew. Trying to relate to Starbuck whom he suspects of some Cylon relationship?


I was hoping he would put his hand in there, but Starbuck shouted at him and he jerked his hand back before touching the com grid. Too bad.

With no resurection ship nearby, the Sharon that the centurion killed, and the centurion that was killed won't be back either (along with the number 6 that number 6 killed ).

With the Cylon system linked to the colonial ship, won't that compromise the whole "we have to keep our computers unllinked, even un networked" mandate that has been in place since the first cylon war?

The Galactica is goning to freak when that base star jumps right into the middle of the fleet.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

sjgmoney said:


> In my opinion this was the best episode this season. I'll have to go home and rewind the whole "final 5... from the 13th... opera house.." diatribe from Harriet Tubman so I can try and decipher what the hell she was saying. Anybody remember the exact wording?


I remembered it well enough to find the exact phrasing with a google search


The Hybrid said:


> Thus will it come to pass. The dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end. End of Line.


And Six's take on that was "The missing Three[s (aka the boxed Deannas)] will give you the [final] Five [Cylons], who have come from the home of the Thirteenth [tribe (aka Earth)]" But who knows if she's correct.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Here's what I don't get, isn't the Hybrid like a built-in ships navigator/CPU? How the hell would it have this knowledge?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Here's what I don't get, isn't the Hybrid like a built-in ships navigator/CPU? How the hell would it have this knowledge?


I don't think you can ask that things make technical and scientific sense in the BSG universe. They don't and I don't think the producer from the beginning intended differently. Even though I like my SF and scotch straight, it's OK for me in this instance. YMMV. I don't have a problem with that because I bought into space fantasy and allegory from the beginning. My problems have been with story and character continuity not technical sense.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Here's what I don't get, isn't the Hybrid like a built-in ships navigator/CPU? How the hell would it have this knowledge?


It is a Black Box, just like any other Oracle.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

aintnosin said:


> The problem with BSG (or any show with a serialized storyline, like Lost) is that you inevitably have episodes that are all setup and some that are payoff. The payoff episodes are almost always perceived better than the setup episodes, even though both are equally important.


Which is why I don't know how some people fast forward through the "boring" parts.

While some story lines - Balter/Chief/Lee Adama's "civil rights crusader" - are not that interesting or even irritating, you don't which which are a setup for something big later in the series.

Of these three, I think the Baltar storyline will turn out to be key, because from the start Balter has always been a very key character. Whatever he does always has profound effects on what happens to everyone else.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I've been thinking more about the Hybrid's prophecy, and particularly about the line "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end." 

It begs the questions: Whose death? Who is "they"? I have been assuming the oracle is referring to humanity - that the Hybrid is prophesying that Kara will lead the fleet to its demise. But why can't the Hybrid be referring to Kara as the harbinger of Cylon death, instead?

Over the course of the series, we've seen the differences between humans and cylons deemphasized. One of the biggest current differences between humans and cylons is resurrection. Maybe Kara has a hand in somehow ending the cylon resurrection process. (By taking out the resurrection ships, or something permanent along those lines). If cylons can no longer resurrect, but instead can birth children, then in a sense she is the harbinger of death to cylon culture, bringing it to its end. If cylons and humans (the splinter group from the cylon civil war and the colonial fleet) wind up finding earth and setting up shop together, then Kara has brought about the end in another respect - she has led the humans to the end of their journey. This, too, would help bring things about full-circle: there would once again be one homogeneous group (comprised of cylons and humans both) living together on earth. Until the next time history repeats itself, at least.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Recall at the end of Razor a male version of a Cylon oracle tells one of the chartacters "the crew must not follow Kara Thrace, she is the harbinger of the Apocalypse for the Human Race.&#8221; He also keeps repeating &#8220;All this has happened before and will happen again, again, again&#8230;.&#8221;

So it would appear that "they" does refer to humanity.

But the "final five are from the the thirteenth?" Does this mean the last five Cylons are actually from Earth????


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Dancar said:


> Recall at the end of Razor a male version of a Cylon oracle tells one of the chartacters "the crew must not follow Kara Thrace, she is the harbinger of the Apocalypse for the Human Race." He also keeps repeating "All this has happened before and will happen again, again, again&#8230;."
> 
> So it would appear that "they" does refer to humanity.


Okay, good point. But if cylons and the fleet wind up as one new group together on earth, then I guess it could be said that she has actually been the harbinger of death for both, with one new group taking the place of the two old parts.



> But the "final five are from the the thirteenth?" Does this mean the last five Cylons are actually from Earth????


That's the way I took it. They are from earth - therefore they know how to find their way back to it.

I predict that Xena will be unboxed. Xena will name the final five. The five will collectively know the way back to earth. This probably means that Kara is the 5th, after all. It does explain her reappearance, and very little else would. Kara and the other four will be able to lead the fleet, and the cylon splinter group back to earth. The final five will be set up on a pedestal by the new founders of earth, ultimately as ages pass and history becomes myth, becoming a new pantheon of five. Baltar, alone and to the contrary, will be the 'one god' of the next generation's opposing theology.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Dancar said:


> While some story lines - Balter/Chief/Lee Adama's "civil rights crusader" - are not that interesting or even irritating, you don't which which are a setup for something big later in the series.


They simply haven't asked Vir what he wants.

Greg


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

danterner said:


> This probably means that Kara is the 5th, after all.


I assumed this to be the case when she had the Vulcan mind meld with the cylon raider.


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## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

SteveInNC said:


> *I'm disappointed in the return-of-Starbuck plot line....*


*I'd be curious to know what would've happened in this show if the remake of The Bionic Woman had been successful and there was no Starbuck to bring back.*


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TiVo Bum said:


> I'd be curious to know what would've happened in this show if the remake of The Bionic Woman had been successful and there was no Starbuck to bring back.


That wasn't an issue--she was only ever going to be a recurring character on Bionic Woman. And they were shot on the same lot. The only reason they let her do BW was because it wouldn't interfere with BG.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Barmat said:


> I assumed this to be the case when she had the Vulcan mind meld with the cylon raider.


When was this?

J


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

have the ship brains/CPU always babbled like this or did they start doing that once they got the virus a couple of seasons ago?

can't recall...

Interesting that Roslin refused to cross the river to the other side...since she has to die before they find Earth...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

A solid episode. :up:

The first really solid episode this season.

A turnaround (in the previously lame writing)?

I hope so!


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

jwjody said:


> When was this?
> 
> J


When she crashed on some planet with a raider. Remember she cut a hole in the side and crawled in, grabbed some fibers/guts, had a mental connection and flew the ship back to the fleet.

Come on. If she isn't the last skinjob I'll eat my shorts. Although it's probably Doc Cottle.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Barmat said:


> When she crashed on some planet with a raider. Remember she cut a hole in the side and crawled in, grabbed some fibers/guts, had a mental connection and flew the ship back to the fleet.
> 
> Come on. If she isn't the last skinjob I'll eat my shorts. Although it's probably Doc Cottle.


She didn't have a mental connection. She operated it by pushing and pulling on muscle and tissue.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Dancar said:


> Recall at the end of Razor a male version of a Cylon oracle tells one of the chartacters "the crew must not follow Kara Thrace, she is the harbinger of the Apocalypse for the Human Race.


Of course, this might just refer to the fact that she leads the fleet (and now, the splinter cylons) to earth, if their arrival will devistate the earth. (Plague, War, Thermonuclear exchange, whatever)


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Saturn_V said:


> That scene with Roslin remembering her mother got me. _Really got me_.


Maybe it's because I don't like the character at all, but that scene did nothing for me. In fact, I remember thinking it was some of the worst acting by an established actor that I can remember.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Barmat said:


> Come on. If she isn't the last skinjob I'll eat my shorts. Although it's probably Doc Cottle.


make sure you get edible shorts, then...no way she's the last one...the writers will want to go for something dramatic and she would not be dramatic enough at this point...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

It would be funny if Zarek was the final Cylon.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> It would be funny if Zarek was the final Cylon.


Hadn't thought about that one. I was thinking that Gaeta would fill the "Peter" role pretty well, but Zarek would probably fill it even better.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

doom1701 said:


> Hadn't thought about that one. I was thinking that Gaeta would fill the "Peter" role pretty well, but Zarek would probably fill it even better.


hey!

Gaeta is MINE...I called him back in season 1...you can agree with me, but you can't claim him as your choice


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> make sure you get edible shorts, then...no way she's the last one...the writers will want to go for something *completely out of left field and, in no way, was foreshadowed by the previous 4 seasons.*


FYP


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Anubys said:


> hey!
> 
> Gaeta is MINE...I called him back in season 1...you can agree with me, but you can't claim him as your choice


OK, I will officially reword that--I agreed with Anubys that Gaeta would be the final Cylon...but now I think Anubys is a doo-doo head and I and going to go with Indy's choice.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

doom1701 said:


> OK, I will officially reword that--I agreed with Anubys that Gaeta would be the final Cylon...but now I think Anubys is a doo-doo head and I and going to go with Indy's choice.


you're going with INDY over me?

have you even read my sig?!

I am a GENIUS...ask anybody!

ok, ask Rob...

ok...don't ask Rob


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> ok, ask Rob...
> 
> ok...don't ask Rob


I'd tell you, but if I were sarcastic it would end up in his .sig, and if I weren't I'd probably get banned. 

Gaeta might have been a good choice back when it still seemed like they were planning things out in advance, but now he's no more or less likely than anybody else.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd tell you, but if I were sarcastic it would end up in his .sig, and if I weren't I'd probably get banned.
> 
> Gaeta might have been a good choice back when it still seemed like they were planning things out in advance, but now he's no more or less likely than anybody else.


how about "relative to Indy, Anubys is a genius"? 

backhanded comments all around :up: 

agree on Gaeta...it's very unlikely that he will be the last one...at this point, I'm sticking with the choice purely for sentimental (read: stubborn) reasons...


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Anubys said:


> how about "relative to Indy, Anubys is a genius"?


Now that's something even I can support.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> how about "relative to Indy, Anubys is a genius"?


Which would, no doubt, go into your .sig as "...Anubys is a genius"!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which would, no doubt, go into your .sig as "...Anubys is a genius"!


technically, you already posted what I need right here!

but I'll be kind...three sarcastic quotes out of context is more than enough for me...I'll let the fourth one go just to show that I'm not cruel


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Anubys said:


> have the ship brains/CPU always babbled like this or did they start doing that once they got the virus a couple of seasons ago?
> 
> can't recall...
> 
> Interesting that Roslin refused to cross the river to the other side...since she has to die before they find Earth...


After the New Caprica period, when Baltar was living with the Cylons he met a hybrid who was babbling like that. He tried to pick some clues out, but they were pretty cryptic.

As for Roslyn, it wasn't her time yet. It's not uncommon for people in the late stages of terminal illnesses to have dreams like this.



> She didn't have a mental connection. She operated it by pushing and pulling on muscle and tissue.


But no one else could get the Raider to respond. This means if she's not a cylon there must be something else unique about her.

If Zarek were the final Cylon I would love the irony being that Richard Harch played Capt. Apollo in the original 1970s series.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Dancar said:


> But no one else could get the Raider to respond. This means if she's not a cylon there must be something else unique about her.


Perhaps the Raider had necrophied too much?



Dancar said:


> If Zarek were the final Cylon I would love the irony being that Richard Harch played Capt. Apollo in the original 1970s series.


And yep, that's what I meant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> technically, you already posted what I need right here!


D'oh!

Sometimes *I'm* a frackin' genius!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Dancar said:
> 
> 
> > But no one else could get the Raider to respond. This means if she's not a cylon there must be something else unique about her.
> ...


Or she just broke something important digging herself back out of the Raider's guts post landing.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

gchance said:


> They simply haven't asked Vir what he wants.
> 
> Greg


LOL!!!! Have you read the script books from Cafe Press yet? The original arc story if Sinclair had stayed just blew my mind.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Craigbob said:


> LOL!!!! Have you read the script books from Cafe Press yet? The original arc story if Sinclair had stayed just blew my mind.


No, but I've been wanting to. One of these days I'll just have to buy it. The biggest thing I'd like to know is how differently things would have played out had they not almost been cancelled in S4.

Greg


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gchance said:


> No, but I've been wanting to. One of these days I'll just have to buy it. The biggest thing I'd like to know is how differently things would have played out had they not almost been cancelled in S4.


Apparently, hardly at all. The only difference was that some things that would have stretched into the fifth season were finished earlier, and some things that would have started in the fourth season and gone into the fifth were introduced later. But all the planned major story points were hit.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Apparently, hardly at all. The only difference was that some things that would have stretched into the fifth season were finished earlier, and some things that would have started in the fourth season and gone into the fifth were introduced later. But all the planned major story points were hit.


I'd agree with that, but had the loss of the notes about the 1st half of season 5 not occurred I think the 1st half would've been much stronger. Well that and the replacement of Ivanova with Lochley also hurt the last season IMO.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Craigbob said:


> LOL!!!! Have you read the script books from Cafe Press yet? The original arc story if Sinclair had stayed just blew my mind.


OK, it's a hijack--but please share more. I wasn't aware that there was any official discussion of what would have happened had Sinclair stuck around.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

doom1701 said:


> OK, it's a hijack--but please share more. I wasn't aware that there was any official discussion of what would have happened had Sinclair stuck around.


I don't know exactly what was supposed to have happened, BUT...

JMS is in the process of publishing all the scripts for all the episodes (including unfilmed and edited-out scenes). This includes the original arcs for all characters.

I'd love to buy them all except there are 15 volumes, 14 of which are $40 apiece. The 15th is free, but over $550 total is a bit much.

Greg


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## rcobourn (Nov 10, 2004)

gchance said:


> I don't know exactly what was supposed to have happened, BUT...
> 
> JMS is in the process of publishing all the scripts for all the episodes (including unfilmed and edited-out scenes). This includes the original arcs for all characters.
> 
> ...


The series of 15 is now complete... and I just got advance word of a new volume of non-JMS B5 scripts.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

can we all get together and buy a copy and donate it the writers of BSG?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> can we all get together and buy a copy and donate it the writers of BSG?


Nah, they're not into science fiction.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

rcobourn said:


> The series of 15 is now complete... and I just got advance word of a new volume of non-JMS B5 scripts.


The non-JMS scripts weren't included in the others? Holy cow!



Anubys said:


> can we all get together and buy a copy and donate it the writers of BSG?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Nah, they're not into science fiction.


It'd be too little too late anyway, remember they're way ahead in production. I think they're doing final drafts on the finale. 

Maybe they could use it for Caprica.

Greg


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

LlamaLarry said:


> I was reading TV Guide or some such at they had Katee Sackhoff in there twice in their "Sexiest" list. They had a solo shot and writeup plus a sci-fi chick only breakdown where she was 4th runner up. Hell, she's not 5th hottest chick on BSG.


Speaking of, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the two 6's kissing.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dancar said:


> Speaking of, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the two 6's kissing.


why should we? it's not the first time...they've done that hundreds of time...

oh wait...I'm mixing up my fantasy life with reality again


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Reality ?????


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Dancar said:


> Speaking of, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the two 6's kissing.


I would have preferred a 6 and a 9...


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

danterner said:


> I would have preferred a 6 and a 9...


But what if Saul Tighe is a 9.  I'd rather have the plain 6s; or 6s and 8s.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Wow, if Saul Tighe is a 9, and you have 9 on 9. Nice.

Greg


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> But what if Saul Tighe is a 9.  I'd rather have the plain 6s; or 6s and 8s.


Don't forget the 3's (D'Anna)


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

I want a 17! (That's one Six, one Eight and one Three)


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Would you like to super size that for one dollar more?


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Would you like to super size that for one dollar more?


Please. With a side order of Wesson Oil.


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

I think machine oil would do better


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

ihatecable said:


> I think machine oil would do better


That works for me, too.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

Roflmao


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

gchance said:


> The non-JMS scripts weren't included in the others? Holy cow!


JMS only had the rights to his scripts (96 out of 110 eps.). So he published those in book form along with photos, memos, commentaries etc... Took 14 volumes. Vol. 15 is a free gift to the fans that bought the other 14. I includes the 1st season Series Bible, the treatment that was shopped around to various networks trying to sell the series and the 7 page memo concerning the orignal series arc in Sinclair had stayed.

Let me tell you that tracked for a while then went to a different path than anyone expected. Would've made a hell of a show.

They just announced Vol 1 of Other Voices which are scripts by the other writers of B5. Sgould take 2 maybe three volumes for that. Then I would expect the Crusade script books Probably 3 of those if he includes the scripts written by others and the three unfilmed scripts.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

So, why did Sinclair leave? I always felt as though he wasn't a dynamic enough actor and the studio demanded a higher caliber star due to ratings.

Or did the actor want to leave?


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

Who is Sinclair?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Dancar said:


> Who is Sinclair?


From Babylon 5.


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## doom1701 (May 15, 2001)

Craigbob said:


> JMS only had the rights to his scripts (96 out of 110 eps.). So he published those in book form along with photos, memos, commentaries etc... Took 14 volumes. Vol. 15 is a free gift to the fans that bought the other 14. I includes the 1st season Series Bible, the treatment that was shopped around to various networks trying to sell the series and the 7 page memo concerning the orignal series arc in Sinclair had stayed.
> 
> Let me tell you that tracked for a while then went to a different path than anyone expected. Would've made a hell of a show.
> 
> They just announced Vol 1 of Other Voices which are scripts by the other writers of B5. Sgould take 2 maybe three volumes for that. Then I would expect the Crusade script books Probably 3 of those if he includes the scripts written by others and the three unfilmed scripts.


Maybe we should start another thread...but I'd love to know the "different path".


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

doom1701 said:


> Maybe we should start another thread...but I'd love to know the "different path".


A Babylon 5 thread is a long time coming. Let's all start watching it together so we can comment on each episode like we do with newer shows! 

I just finished S1 and part of the S2 premiere. So it's fairly fresh in my mind these days, hehe.

Greg


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

gchance said:


> A Babylon 5 thread is a long time coming. Let's all start watching it together so we can comment on each episode like we do with newer shows!


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I would totally do that. B5 is one of those shows that I know is good but I somehow missed. I'd love to watch it one of these days, and this would give me the perfect excuse. I imagine each week's thread would be replete with spoilers, though...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

danterner said:


> I'm not sure if you're serious, but I would totally do that. B5 is one of those shows that I know is good but I somehow missed. I'd love to watch it one of these days, and this would give me the perfect excuse. I imagine each week's thread would be replete with spoilers, though...


Yes, I'm serious. The rule would need to be the same as a first-run series, no mention about future stuff without spoiler tags. It'd be HARD for those of us intimately familiar with the whole series, but fun all the same.

Greg


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

I wasn't a B5 fan, but I've got Firefly on my Netflix list based on recommendations from friends. If I like it enough, I may start some threads on that one.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

gchance said:


> Yes, I'm serious. The rule would need to be the same as a first-run series, no mention about future stuff without spoiler tags. It'd be HARD for those of us intimately familiar with the whole series, but fun all the same.
> 
> Greg


I like it. I love watching the series through newbie eyes. I'm getting a friend into it but don't get to watch it often enough. I'll do it and not spoil anything. When do we want to start?

I'll make one recommendation. DO NOT Start with the movie "In the Beginning" It spils stuff you won't know about until the 4th season. Start with "The Gathering" then move to S1.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Craigbob said:


> I'll make one recommendation. DO NOT Start with the movie "In the Beginning" It spils stuff you won't know about until the 4th season. Start with "The Gathering" then move to S1.


It's like watching Star Wars Episode I before Episode IV. While chronologically it takes place before, there's certain plot points that are given out that aren't revealed in the series until the end of S1. 

There's also spoilers sprinkled here and there in other places. JMS did the George Lucas thing with his Director's Cut of The Gathering (the only version available), and unfortunately there's a certain line uttered by Kosh that gives away something not revealed in the series until S3. I suppose for the newbie, he'd have no clue, but still.

Greg


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> So, why did Sinclair leave? I always felt as though he wasn't a dynamic enough actor and the studio demanded a higher caliber star due to ratings.


My understanding was they felt they could do more with Sheridan. I think Sheridan was pretty boring, actually. I would have prefered Sinclair to stay. They said it would "enhance the storyline", I believe.

Now...if they did a little bit of a spin-off with what happened to Sinclair on Minbari (as what happened in the novel that JMS says should be considered canon...forget the title) that would have been cool.

-Mike


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## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

LlamaLarry said:


> I was reading TV Guide or some such at they had Katee Sackhoff in there twice in their "Sexiest" list. They had a solo shot and writeup plus a sci-fi chick only breakdown where she was 4th runner up. Hell, she's not 5th hottest chick on BSG.


When she is all made up, she is actually pretty cute. Here is an example:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/[email protected]@._V1._SY400_SX600_.jpg


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't have permission to view the image.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> I don't have permission to view the image.


Copy and paste the link.

--Carlos V.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Unbeliever said:


> Copy and paste the link.
> 
> --Carlos V.


The webpage cannot be found


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## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

I uploaded it to imageshack. The vast majority of the time, she doesn't look so hot, but there are some rare occasions.


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## Dancar (Oct 8, 2001)

I think Katee's look is totally appropriate for her character. Women in the military or law enforcement tend to have the "tomboy" look, and Katee as Starbuck is attractive if you like the athletic woman. 

If Tricia Helfer had been cast as Starbuck (but looking like she does as Six), people would have made jokes about her they way they made jokes about the young hot Terminator in the Sara Conner chronicals. Tricia Helfer as Six works dramatically because when she kicks someone's a** it reminds us that she's not human, as human women who look like that don't kick a** like that.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I totally agree that Katie's looks work for her as Starbuck. But I don't recall anyone making jokes about "Cameron" on the Terminator TV show. Cameron was designed to look that way to fit in. It's not casting against type, actually.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I totally agree that Katie's looks work for her as Starbuck. But I don't recall anyone making jokes about "Cameron" on the Terminator TV show. Cameron was designed to look that way to fit in. It's not casting against type, actually.


Exactly. In fact, one could say Summer Glau as Cameron works dramatically because when she kicks someone's a** it reminds us that she's not human, as human women who look like that don't kick a** like that.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

I didn't watch this episode until tonight because the episodes before this were so frakking boring. I thought this episode was great, even with the mediocre pres/Kira stuff. The Starbuck mission finally got interesting, and the various deaths on the Cylon ship were really well handled. Rather than checking the time to see how much I still had to endure, I was checking it because I didn't want it to be over. This show is just so uneven lately, it goes from almost unwatchable to one of my favorite shows on TV .


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I totally agree that Katie's looks work for her as Starbuck. But I don't recall anyone making jokes about "Cameron" on the Terminator TV show. Cameron was designed to look that way to fit in. It's not casting against type, actually.


Except for the fact that it's a 26 year old women playing a teenager. I always found it jarring when people responded to her like she was obviously a teen.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Rosincrans said:


> Except for the fact that it's a 26 year old women playing a teenager. I always found it jarring when people responded to her like she was obviously a teen.


That's just a universal caveat of Hollywood. Teens don't portray teens because they have a limited amount of time they can work, have to be tutored, aren't as good, etc.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> That's just a universal caveat of Hollywood. Teens don't portray teens because they have a limited amount of time they can work, have to be tutored, aren't as good, etc.


And there's only so much Ellen Page can do.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I totally agree that Katie's looks work for her as Starbuck.


Lame quote I pulled to, but I had to kind of make my next sentence relevant.

[leer]I was over on Egotastic and I saw some pictures that made me reconsider my allusion that Katee is not attractive. Normally I fancy myself an 8 fan, but in those shots at least she needs to go grab a sammich. 6, as usual, brings the hotness.[/leer]


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Umm, thanks?


----------

