# Will a lifetime Mini work in another home?



## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

A friend wants to test out the Mini in their home. They have a 4 tuner Premiere with lifetime. Will my lifetime Mini work if I take it to their home to test out, or is it a waste of time and energy?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Waste.

The Mini and its host have to be on the same account with same MAK.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> Waste.
> 
> The Mini and its host have to be on the same account with same MAK.


Thanks for the info. Seems like an odd way to lock everything down, but maybe Tivo has big plans we don't yet know about.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Its no different than how transfers/streaming works- they must be on the same account.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr_smits said:


> Thanks for the info. Seems like an odd way to lock everything down, but maybe Tivo has big plans we don't yet know about.


Streaming between devices has always required they be on the same MAK, with the Mini having no storage and requiring a subscription why wouldn't they handle it just like a regular unit?


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

dianebrat said:


> Streaming between devices has always required they be on the same MAK, with the Mini having no storage and requiring a subscription why wouldn't they handle it just like a regular unit?


I don't understand the need to lock it down in this way. Just because that's how they've always done it isn't an actual reason. It's a default.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

mr_smits said:


> A friend wants to test out the Mini in their home. They have a 4 tuner Premiere with lifetime. Will my lifetime Mini work if I take it to their home to test out, or is it a waste of time and energy?


Sure. You'll just need to transfer the Mini to your friend's account and then back to your account afterwards. So it can work but it's probably not worth the effort to make those 2 phone calls.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

mr_smits said:


> I don't understand the need to lock it down in this way. Just because that's how they've always done it isn't an actual reason. It's a default.


They've done it that way because they need to. They can't have people transferring shows from one account to another as that violates copyright restrictions. Transfers all have to be in the same account so as to stay straight with the fair use requirements.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

NYHeel said:


> They've done it that way because they need to. They can't have people transferring shows from one account to another as that violates copyright restrictions. Transfers all have to be in the same account so as to stay straight with the fair use requirements.


Are you saying that (theoretically) if a Mini wasn't tied to a specific account, that it could stream shows from across the internet to another person's host Tivo??

This seems silly. A Mini doesn't work without a local 4 tuner host, unless some magical feature has yet to be revealed by Tivo HQ. Taking a hard drive less mini to any location would only stream from a local 4 tuner host to the Mini. It couldn't violate any copyright restrictions since, again, it isn't sharing anything not already present on the local 4 tuner host system.

What am I missing here?


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

NYHeel said:


> Sure. You'll just need to transfer the Mini to your friend's account and then back to your account afterwards. So it can work but it's probably not worth the effort to make those 2 phone calls.


Yeah, I'm not going through that much effort.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

mr_smits said:


> Are you saying that (theoretically) if a Mini wasn't tied to a specific account, that it could stream shows from across the internet to another person's host Tivo??
> 
> This seems silly. A Mini doesn't work without a local 4 tuner host, unless some magical feature has yet to be revealed by Tivo HQ. Taking a hard drive less mini to any location would only stream from a local 4 tuner host to the Mini. It couldn't violate any copyright restrictions since, again, it isn't sharing anything not already present on the local 4 tuner host system.
> 
> What am I missing here?


With VPN's, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_network, how does TiVo guarantee that the 4-tuner host is really local? It could allow sharing of HBO across the internet, for example.


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## noah82 (Aug 1, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> With VPN's, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_network, how does TiVo guarantee that the 4-tuner host is really local? It could allow sharing of HBO across the internet, for example.


The Tivo host device and the Mini need to be on the same subnet as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Mini may not need to be locked down like this, but TiVo's entire DRM scheme is based around this design so it's to be expected. The Stream has the same requirement.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> With VPN's, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_network, how does TiVo guarantee that the 4-tuner host is really local? It could allow sharing of HBO across the internet, for example.


As someone else pointed out, TiVo also requires that the devices be on the same IP subnet, which with most VPN setups won't be the default (and it requires some knowledge to fake it out so it looks like it's on the same subnet at the remote end of the VPN).

Additionally, most VPNs that you would set up to accomplish what you are describing would not be capable of the 20-40 megabit per second data rates that the Mini needs to stream shows directly from a host TiVo.

For those tiny # of people that can get around both of these problems, TiVo and the broadcasters surely don't give a crap.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jmpage2 said:


> Additionally, most VPNs that you would set up to accomplish what you are describing would not be capable of the 20-40 megabit per second data rates that the Mini needs to stream shows directly from a host TiVo.


Most HD channels max out around 15Mbps, and never exceed 20Mbps, but that's still more upstream bandwidth then most people have.

Although there is a guy on this forum who has this working with his FIOS connection. He setup the Mini at his girlfriends house so they can watch things on his TiVo when they're at his house. So it's apparently possible.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> For those tiny # of people that can get around both of these problems, TiVo and the broadcasters surely don't give a crap.


That seems extremely unlikely.

The cable companies do not like TiVo, and if TiVo was responsible for theft of service (illegal access to HBO, for example) from the cable companies, they would come down hard on TiVo.

If a work-around to get HBO is figured out, I would expect it get to get publicized and made into scripts. Security through obscurity is not feasible any more, and I'm surprised people are suggesting counting on it.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

People already use VPN into US addresses to get content not available in their region. That's a bigger issue than the tiny # of people who use a very large VPN connection to extend their TiVo network into another household.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> People already use VPN into US addresses to get content not available in their region. That's a bigger issue than the tiny # of people who use a very large VPN connection to extend their TiVo network into another household.


Sure, right now there's no incentive for most folks to extend their TiVo network. But if you remove MAK requirements, then you make VPN's profitable for those who want to pirate cable signals.

I don't see why you think TiVo should end it's anti-piracy MAK requirements and risk getting cable companies upset.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> Sure, right now there's no incentive for most folks to extend their TiVo network. But if you remove MAK requirements, then you make VPN's profitable for those who want to pirate cable signals.
> 
> I don't see why you think TiVo should end it's anti-piracy MAK requirements and risk getting cable companies upset.


Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never advocated for anything of the sort. I pointed out that TiVo and content companies have enough on their plate without worrying about the handful of people who can use a VPN to put a mini at a 2nd location.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> That seems extremely unlikely.
> 
> The cable companies do not like TiVo, and if TiVo was responsible for theft of service (illegal access to HBO, for example) from the cable companies, they would come down hard on TiVo.
> 
> If a work-around to get HBO is figured out, I would expect it get to get publicized and made into scripts. Security through obscurity is not feasible any more, and I'm surprised people are suggesting counting on it.


What about SlingPlayer / sling box will play say HBO to any other home, is that not theft of service ??


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> What about SlingPlayer / sling box will play say HBO to any other home, is that not theft of service ??


Yes it is. Sling gets away with it by exploiting the analog hole. If you were to use HDMI only then the Premium channels would be protected by HDCP and you wouldn't be able to stream them. The only reason you can is because most boxes still have component outputs. If they ever do away with component and switch to HDMI only on those boxes then Sling will be in the same boat as TiVo.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Yes it is. Sling gets away with it by exploiting the analog hole. If you were to use HDMI only then the Premium channels would be protected by HDCP and you wouldn't be able to stream them. The only reason you can is because most boxes still have component outputs. If they ever do away with component and switch to HDMI only on those boxes then Sling will be in the same boat as TiVo.


I don't have or use a Sling but I though the newest Sling has a HDMI input.

I looked it up and if the HDMI signal is copy protected it will not work, oh well.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Most HD channels max out around 15Mbps, and never exceed 20Mbps, but that's still more upstream bandwidth then most people have.
> 
> Although there is a guy on this forum who has this working with his FIOS connection. He setup the Mini at his girlfriends house so they can watch things on his TiVo when they're at his house. So it's apparently possible.


It's definitely possible. I would have the same setup if I could get my GF to get FiOS. But she keeps sticking with Verizon DSL. I've been trying to get her to switch for many years but no luck. So there has never been a point to permanently setting up a VPN with her slow 1.2Mb/s DSL. My FIOS 150/65 service is plenty fast enough to feed her connection it were fast enough.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> With VPN's, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_network, how does TiVo guarantee that the 4-tuner host is really local? It could allow sharing of HBO across the internet, for example.


Yeah, I've used an international VPN to sign up for MLB access and watch all teams play, even (gasp!) in market teams. Either my connection was poor or I didn't buy a fast enough VPN because the quality was not great.

The ability of a Tivo to stream to a Mini across the internet is practically 5 years away for most people. The infrastructure just isn't available, and it's a pain to set it up except for the most determined.

But this brings up another issue. How is this different than giving a friend or family member access to your Stream? Isn't that a real issue compared to the convoluted nightmare of setting up a Mini in another location? Have that person visit or ship an ipad, set it up, then set it free. Boom, a remote extension of your tivo?


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

mr_smits said:


> Yeah, I've used an international VPN to sign up for MLB access and watch all teams play, even (gasp!) in market teams. Either my connection was poor or I didn't buy a fast enough VPN because the quality was not great.
> 
> The ability of a Tivo to stream to a Mini across the internet is practically 5 years away for most people. The infrastructure just isn't available, and it's a pain to set it up except for the most determined.
> 
> But this brings up another issue. How is this different than giving a friend or family member access to your Stream? Isn't that a real issue compared to the convoluted nightmare of setting up a Mini in another location? Have that person visit or ship an ipad, set it up, then set it free. Boom, a remote extension of your tivo?


You actually specifically agree that you won't do that when you agree to the terms for the TiVo remote streaming.

The reality is that there are technical workarounds for many of the limitations imposed by over-the-top DRM but the reality is that 99.9% of customers won't bother.


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## TC25D (Aug 21, 2013)

jmpage2 said:


> ...but the reality is that 99.9% of customers won't bother.


...or care.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

jmpage2 said:


> You actually specifically agree that you won't do that when you agree to the terms for the TiVo remote streaming.
> 
> The reality is that there are technical workarounds for many of the limitations imposed by over-the-top DRM but the reality is that 99.9% of customers won't bother.


Right...

It's just odd the Mini DRM is more intrusive, and less likely, than the Stream sharing. I suppose the Mini DRM does cut down on value should a device be stolen since it won't work without contacting Tivo first.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

mr_smits said:


> Right...
> 
> It's just odd the Mini DRM is more intrusive, and less likely, than the Stream sharing. I suppose the Mini DRM does cut down on value should a device be stolen since it won't work without contacting Tivo first.


I would imagine that the biggest reason is that the Mini is producing "full quality" viewing of the original material, where-as with portable devices it is being offered at lower quality on a smaller screen.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

jmpage2 said:


> I would imagine that the biggest reason is that the Mini is producing "full quality" viewing of the original material, where-as with portable devices it is being offered at lower quality on a smaller screen.


Right, but the Mini is just a slave to a master device like any 4 tuner Tivo. It does nothing without this LAN connection to the 4 tuner Tivo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo is required by Cable Labs rules to "protect the path". That means that the video has to be encrypted all the way from source to display. Their encryption scheme, which was approved by Cable Labs long before the Mini even existed, uses public/private key decryption. The Mini has to be on your account to receive the public key. (i.e. the MAK) They could allow you to enter that manually instead, but since the Mini requires service anyway it makes sense to just pull it automatically from the account. They also use the account to limit abuse of their MSD pricing scheme by limiting the number of devices allowed. (i.e. 10)


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is required by Cable Labs rules to "protect the path". That means that the video has to be encrypted all the way from source to display. Their encryption scheme, which was approved by Cable Labs long before the Mini even existed, uses public/private key decryption. The Mini has to be on your account to receive the public key. (i.e. the MAK) They could allow you to enter that manually instead, but since the Mini requires service anyway it makes sense to just pull it automatically from the account. They also use the account to limit abuse of their MSD pricing scheme by limiting the number of devices allowed. (i.e. 10)


Very helpful! Thanks.


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