# LOST - 5/9/2007 - "The Man Behind The Curtain" **Spoilers**



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow, awesome episode. So is Locke dead?


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

I hope Locke doesn't get offed or maybe the island/Jacob will bring him back?


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Holy Crap!


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> Wow, awesome episode. So is Locke dead?


Doubt it. Jacob will probably save him.

On a side note. Why does that leader of the 'Hostiles' not age? You know the one that gave Lock the file? Odd.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Locke in the first fifteen minutes was Great!!! And eyeliner guy is a 'hostile'. The purging is an interesting concept and woosh on the Jacob thing.

Locke better not be dead. Maybe Jack and such will find him or the Island will heal him.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Damn!! That was some awesome TV!!!


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

mostman said:


> Doubt it. Jacob will probably save him.
> 
> On a side note. Why does that leader of the 'Hostiles' not age? You know the one that gave Lock the file? Odd.


Yeah, meant to mention that too. So Richard doesn't age AND he's the leader of the "Hostiles" (who are appearently what we now know as the Others).


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Richard *was* the leader of the Hostiles. Now Ben is. What a fantastic episode. I'm sure they'll be another Ben flashback next year that will explain Jacob. So much for Jacob being Christian Shepard.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

No mention of the van yet? That was my favorite part.  No, seriously, great episode, I wish someone had told me to buckle up for this one, espeially when Jacob went all poltergeist.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Was this the first time Jacob was mentioned?

Also - it is possible that Locke didn't see him because he didn't really kill his father?

Or is it that Ben really is the only one that can see and hear him - and thats why he shot Locke?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Holy Cow!

Ben is another islander with Daddy issues.

Ben's dad is Uncle Rico.

I didn't catch on to Ben's dad being the dead guy in the Darma bus until he was issued his uniform and complained about being a "Work Man." Before then the name Roger didn't ring a bell.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Why did Jacob say to Locke "help me". 

Could Jacob really be Ben. Split personality and all like that? (ala Heroes and Nikki)


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I doubt it. 

What is Jacob?

The voices were back today. 

Are the orginal inhabitants ghosts? His mom was certainly thought to be dead by both him and his dad. His dad needed a good kick in the face for blaming Ben for his mother's death.

Nice to see Doug Hutchison. He's a great actor. Throw away part tonight, I think but still good to see he's working. 

What's the deal with Jack and Juliette? Are they finally going to tell us what's going on with their plans?

It seems like Ben had a connection with "Anne" but was quick to put events into motion that would end up killing her. 

Can we tell how much time has passed between the deaths of those people and the plane crash? At least one of the "hostiles" hadn't aged at all or it appeared to be that way. 

Now we know where the volkswagen bus came from.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Here is a picture of Jacob-he was visible for a few frames.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Why did Jacob say to Locke "help me".
> 
> Could Jacob really be Ben. Split personality and all like that? (ala Heroes and Nikki)


When Ben is pushed back against the wall they pan back over to the chair and someone was definately sitting in it. On freeze frame it kinda looked like Locke with long hair.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Ok - so this explains the premise of the show. Someone above was right.

Everyone on this island is a ghost. You can only see the ghosts that you knew before you died. Thats why all the Losties are connected. Its not a coincidence - thats the only reason why they see eachother.

Thats why some ghosts are not seen by everyone.

Thats why only Ben can see Jacob.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

And we have yet another child of an alcoholic father. And more father issues. Phew.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Did anyone else notice someone sitting in the chair for a flash of a second during the cabin scene when all Hell broke loose?

Doh, a little slow.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I think it's pretty clear now that time either moves much slower or faster on the island than it does everywhere else.


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

mostman said:


> Ok - so this explains the premise of the show. Someone above was right.
> 
> Everyone on this island is a ghost. You can only see the ghosts that you knew before you died. Thats why all the Losties are connected. Its not a coincidence - thats the only reason why they see eachother.
> 
> ...





Spoiler



They're not all dead

Lindeloff and Cuse shot that down AGAIN this past week


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## BillL (Oct 6, 2004)

Jacob is acutally Locke who went back in time.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

nrrhgreg said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Covering the surprise most likely. I don't think its purgatory or hell - I just think they are ghosts.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> Here is a picture of Jacob-he was visible for a few frames.


It's Qui Gon Jin.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

BillL said:


> Jacob is acutally Locke who went back in time.


And grew hair?


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## BillL (Oct 6, 2004)

mostman said:


> And grew hair?


First he went to the future and got the cure for hair loss.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

BillL said:


> First he went to the future and got the cure for hair loss.


Like Doc Brown in Back to the Future Part II.


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## BillL (Oct 6, 2004)

Anyone else have a feeling that the hostiles are actually Aliens?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

I am starting to think the writers really had this planned out. Seriously planned out. Its been a long wait for some answers - but wow.

Can you imagine what watching all five seasons in a row on dvd will be like 5 years from now?


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

BillL said:


> Anyone else have a feeling that the hostiles are actually Aliens?


No, not at all.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

mostman said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Covering the surprise most likely. I don't think its purgatory or hell - I just think they are ghosts.


I hope not because that would be very amatuerish writing. It's just a stupid and boring idea.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Holy Cow!
> 
> Ben is another islander with Daddy issues.
> 
> ...


Nope - Ben's dad is Broots! (From "The Pretender")


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Wow.....crazy episode. I hope that the Island/Jacob heals Locke......although he has been out for himself this whole time, I still like his character and think that he can help all of the Losties get back to the real world.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Maybe the island is a portal to the spiritual world. That's why the dead can be seen. And maybe the reason women who conceive on the island die is because their baby's souls are sucked into the portal and the women get dragged down with them. And the black smoke is some sort of guardian for the portal, like Cerberus or something. Ok, it's out there, I know, but come on, is really that crazy.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

So what was up with the wide line of clay-like granules that Ben stepped over?

It seems that Ben shot Locke simply because Locke heard him. If Locke insisted he hadn't heard anything, I think he would not have been shot.

Here's a question: Is Ben the only one who can see Jacob? If he is, who comes to Ben to summon him to Jacob? 

Another one: Why did Alex tell Locke he needed the gun? To protect Locke from Jacob, or from Ben?

Finally, does anyone else want to smack Jack? "It's time we catch up." He is now my least favorite character on the island.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> I hope not because that would be very amatuerish writing. It's just a stupid and boring idea.


Agreed. But its the only thing that can sort of tie things together - except maybe reincarnation


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I am starting to think the island is a gateway. A gateway to what I don't know yet but a gateway to something and I think somehow the occult is involved.

I am not sure this is a spoiler but I will post it as such and if someone could let me know their opinion I would be grateful.



Spoiler



Kristin at E! and Ausiello at TV Guide said there is a game changer coming up and we would know it when we say it. Was it in this episode?


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

mwhip said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Kristin at E! and Ausiello at TV Guide said there is a game changer coming up and we would know it when we say it. Was it in this episode?





Spoiler



Kristin and Ausiello both said this week that the game changer would be the finale. Specifically, the last 5 minutes of it


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

mwhip said:


> I am starting to think the island is a gateway. A gateway to what I don't know yet


Take a look at the title of the season finale.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

unixadm said:


> Wow.....crazy episode. I hope that the Island/Jacob heals Locke......although he has been out for himself this whole time, I still like his character and think that he can help all of the Losties get back to the real world.


It will because Jacob is Locke...


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

mwhip said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Kristin at E! and Ausiello at TV Guide said there is a game changer coming up and we would know it when we say it. Was it in this episode?





Spoiler



Well, if we'd know it when we see it, and you have to ask, then this must not have been it.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

drew2k said:


> Nope - Ben's dad is Broots! (From "The Pretender")


Gees. That's the same thing my husband said.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)




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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

WOW! great episode!

I actually shrieked like a little girl when Locke got shot!

So there really IS "two" sets of Others? For realsies?

Wow.

And the voices.

And I think Ben is crazy and Jacob is in his brain!


Allthou I'm not sure..


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

So that's why patricide is Ben's character test of choice.

Hey, Kate killed her stepfather, is that good enough.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if we'd know it when we see it, and you have to ask, then this must not have been it.





Spoiler



That was my guess but I wanted to make sure I was not asking for too much


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> So that's why patricide is Ben's character test of choice.
> 
> Hey, Kate killed her stepfather, is that good enough.


And Jack's mom probably would say Jack caused Christian's death.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

I kept wanting Locke to call Ben's bluff by shooting at the chair. That was before Jacob went all nutso so that probably wouldn't have turned out to be a great idea.

Is Locke Died?

Maybe someone will get my 5-year-old Fox 24 message board reference.


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## thedudeabides (Aug 7, 2003)

I, for one, don't think Ben can hear Jacob. I think he was faking it, which explains why he was so interested that Locke could hear him. Locke has a connection that Ben doesn't. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Locke was unable to kill his father but Ben did kill his dad.

Lots of daddy issues on this show.

Awesome episode! With Lazlo Holyfield to boot!!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> And Jack's mom probably would say Jack caused Christian's death.


Well, you know what they say...All the best cowboys have daddy issues. (Season 1, episode 11)


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## kramerboy (Jul 13, 2001)

So....... OK, they killed of the Dharma Initiative... So why did they leave Kelvin and Desmond alone in the Swan?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

kramerboy said:


> So....... OK, they killed of the Dharma guys... So why did they leave Kelvin and Desmond alone in the Swan?


We don't know (do we?) when this "coup" took place. Perhaps neither of them were on the island yet.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Wow, I thought I'd come up here and find everyone complaining about the invisible man. lol I have mixed feelings about this episode though...


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## twincaminferno (Mar 6, 2006)

Maybe the magic turtle can save Locke. 

http://tags.defamer.com/hollywood/magic-turtles/


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Please let Locke be dead and stay dead. Please. Boone payback.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

kramerboy said:


> So....... OK, they killed of the Dharma Initiative... So why did they leave Kelvin and Desmond alone in the Swan?


Swan was pretty well fortified, apparently for a reason....


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> So there really IS "two" sets of Others? For realsies?


Not anymore


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## jonblaze (Jan 10, 2004)

They made the point of showing us "young Ben" looking at the picture of his parents during the scene when his mother first appears on the island. It looks to be no coincidence that she is wearing the same outfit on the island as she was in the picture. Is this because she is simply the product of the "magic box"--i.e., a physical manifestation of Ben's imagination?


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

So who's your favorite other other? Great episode!


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## Chandler Mike (Mar 29, 2002)

mostman said:


> Was this the first time Jacob was mentioned?
> 
> Also - it is possible that Locke didn't see him because he didn't really kill his father?
> 
> Or is it that Ben really is the only one that can see and hear him - and thats why he shot Locke?


I haven't read every post yet, but I believe Locke DID see him...there WAS someone sitting in that chair, you could see him in HD...

And that's when Locke's eyes got WIDE and he ran out.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Things are definitely coming to a head here. I didn't know what to make of the Invisible Jacob scene either. It was totally unexpected. That, and the apparent murder of Locke. We even got an explanation of the van and its occupant to boot! 

A couple of questions disguised as observations:
Did enough time pass on the island, really, to make the bodies in the pit (and by extension, the van) decompose that much? Also, the van looked in really poor shape when Hurley found it, as if it'd been sitting there for 10 years. Ben doesn't look much older than he did then. Maybe this is a clue.

What was up with the emphasis on the gray clay or ash that Locke paused to look at? First, Locke bent down to look at it and then the camera pointed to it. There has to be a significance that we're not meant to know yet. 

And wow to explaining the original Dharma Initiative as hippies who were looking for paradise. But somehow, I don't think that's it. There'll be more, probably something sinister that Ben wasn't aware of as a child and thus explaining why the hostiles attacked the Initiative.

I can't wait to see what the plans are now that Jack and Juliet are bringing things up to date with the Lostaways. Jack will assume leadership again. I don't have a negative feeling against the character as some on this board seem to. I think Jack's much more calculating than we're giving him credit for.

For those of you who thought the show lost its mysterious, spooky sci-fi vibe when the Others were fleshed out to be a group living on the island must be rejoicing as it's back in a major way.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, when we saw the "grown up" Ben, he didn't look that different than he does now. This must have occured less than 10 years ago. This means that Russo was already on the island. Wait, when did Ben meet Russo and have Alex? How could he?


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

scottykempf said:


> Well, when we saw the "grown up" Ben, he didn't look that different than he does now. So, assuming that he is 35 or so, then this must have occured less than 10 years ago. This means that Russo was already on the island. Wait, when did Ben meet Russo and have Alex? How could he?


He didn't meet Russo and "have" Alex....they STOLE Alex from her after Alex was born. Ben is not the biological father....and the baby was conceived BEFORE Russo was on the island (or she wouldn't have survived.)


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

unixadm said:


> He didn't meet Russo and "have" Alex....they STOLE Alex from her after Alex was born. Ben is not the biological father....and the baby was conceived BEFORE Russo was on the island (or she wouldn't have survived.)


Or so we assume. Wait, why would a pregnant woman be on a long research mission on a ship?


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

scottykempf said:


> Or so we assume. Wait, why would a pregnant woman be on a long research mission on a ship?


Maybe she got pregant on the ship before getting stuck on the island?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Maybe. We'll only have to wait 2 years to find out Russo's story, which will be told in obtuse flashbacks. Oooh, there's an idea. Once LOST is done, they could re-edit all the footage and storylines together chronilogically. That way, the story would actually make sense and be a cohesive narrative. You would lose the "mystery" of the show, but would make up for it because people would know what the hell was going on.


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

My thoughts on Locke/Jacob/Ben:

Jacob is some kind of real entity......One of the others was able to hear him and take instructions from him. Ben never could. Somehow that person is dead (maybe Ben killed them?) and Ben claims he can hear Jacob, even though he couldn't and has taken over as the leader.

Locke did hear Jacob...and that threatened Ben....thus why he took him out to the gravesite and shot him....and also why he kept asking Locke what Jacob said. Ben knew that if Locke heard Jacob, that he would become the leader if he allowed him to live.

I wonder if Locke will survive because of the Island, because of Jacob's power, whatever it may be, or just because he was lucky and the bullet didn't hit a vital organ.

We shall see....probably not until next season.


This is definitely the best season yet...


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Jacob is the lone survivor of a crash on the island, and everything we see is a figment of his imagination.


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## lordargent (Nov 12, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Ok, it's out there, I know, but come on, is really that crazy.


I like it, it's a nexus.



drew2k said:


> So what was up with the wide line of clay-like granules that Ben stepped over?


It's for summoning demons.



mostman said:


> Why does that leader of the 'Hostiles' not age? You know the one that gave Lock the file? Odd.


He's a demon.



unixadm said:


> Jacob is some kind of real entity......One of the others was able to hear him and take instructions from him. Ben never could.


Jacob == Management

/did Mikail just get another whuppin?


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## Snappa77 (Feb 14, 2004)

drew2k said:


> ........Finally, does anyone else want to smack Jack? "It's time we catch up." He is now my least favorite character on the island.


I have been feeling that way about him since season one. Cant stand his characeter. Nominated him 3 times for most annoying television character.

hehe found the thread. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4013620#post4013620


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Absolutely brilliant episode. Loved the creepiness of Jacob. 

Here are my thoughts. 

Why were the inhabitants of the Swan Station not "purged" as well? Kelvin claimed he joined the Dharma Initiative, so I assume he was there in the Swan before the purge-which has to be after the first Iraq War, because thats where Kelvin met Sayid.

Somehow the food drops still occur-Perhaps The Others relay information back to the Dharma Initiative and pretend that Dharma is still active? Although that wouldn't make much sense, since they weren't the ones who benefit from the food drops.

Richard apparently doesn't age. He looks the same as he did when Ben met him. At the beginning of the episode Ben quips to Richard "You do remember birthdays, don't you?" 

So Richard's immortal, Jacob is invisible-do the "hostiles" have supernatural powers? Is that what happens if you are born on the island? And is that why no one else has been born on the island since?

Who has funded the company that Richard represents when he recruits new members to The Others?

For some reason, Ben's backstory-and the backstory of the island-makes me trust Juliette more.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

mostman said:


> Ok - so this explains the premise of the show. Someone above was right.
> 
> Everyone on this island is a ghost. You can only see the ghosts that you knew before you died. Thats why all the Losties are connected. Its not a coincidence - thats the only reason why they see eachother.
> 
> ...


So Locke knew all of the Others before he died? Juliette knew all of the Losties? So did Ben? Ethan? Richard? Alex? Rouseau?

Sorry, there are too many people who can see each other who never knew each other before for the "You can only see the ghosts you knew before you died" to work.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Maybe the "ash" or whatever that Locke picked up before meeting Jacob is how Jacob manifests himself as the monster???

I have no idea...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Holy Cow!
> 
> Ben is another islander with Daddy issues.
> 
> ...


Ben's dad also worked for The Centre. (Yes, I smeeked)

And not only does Ben also have Daddy issues, not only is he more psycho than we thought, not only is he guilty of patricide, matricide (indirectly), and mass murder, he's a mama's boy to boot!



spikedavis said:


> Why were the inhabitants of the Swan Station not "purged" as well? Kelvin claimed he joined the Dharma Initiative, so I assume he was there in the Swan before the purge-which has to be after the first Iraq War, because thats where Kelvin met Sayid.


The other interesting thing is that Kelvin kept telling Desmond that he couldn't go outside without the protective suit.
It looks like there was some basis in fact for that.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Ben's dad also worked for The Centre. (Yes, I smeeked)
> 
> And not only does Ben also have Daddy issues, not only is he more psycho than we thought, not only is he guilty of patricide, matricide (indirectly), and mass murder, he's a mama's boy to boot!
> 
> ...


say-you're right! I didn't even think about that.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Wow, I can't beleive they killed Locke! If I had to pick a list of people who would not have been killed this epsiode, he would have been near the top for sure. Of course, as mentioned, maybe he will live for whatever reason, but he sure seemed to be getting worse rather rapidly.

For timeline, I figured that the nerve gassing of the Dharma people had to happen 15 or so years ago as they were still trying to make Ben look younger. I thought they tried to make
Richard look younger in the flashbacks, but Nestor Carbonel looks young anyway so they might not have been able to do it as sucsesfully as some of the other characters so I am not ready to decalre him immortal just yet.


Interesting the parallels drawn between the others coming fo rthe women in a couple of days and the flight 815 people having to fight back and the coup of the Dharma initiative by the others. Of course, if the others still have access to that nerve gas, they fight could be quite short.

I was also wondering about hte ring of powder around the cabin where Jacob was. Aren;t rings of various materials used in witchcraft to keep spirits of differnt kinds out (or in for this case)


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## kcarl75 (Oct 23, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe the "ash" or whatever that Locke picked up before meeting Jacob is how Jacob manifests himself as the monster???


That's an interesting idea.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I think the ring of powder was maybe gunpowder...
The used it in National Treasure as a light source...


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Wish they would have shot Jack, I am sooooo sick of his character. I hope Locke heals, after all he is no longer paralyzed. When he was beating Patchie and no one would intervene when Ben beckoned it was clear that Ben was feeling threatened by John, for the first time his authority was challenged. The look that John gave Patchie as he and Bug Eyes were leaving to see Jacob was priceless.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Ok so lets look at a timeline. Ben was probably a teenager (say 13-14) when they first got to the island. I'd say that now he is at least in his 40s. That leaves about 25 years form when he first arrived to present time. Lets assume that they nerve gassed dharma before Rosseau arrived, So that would put Ben in his early 20s (based on how old Alex is). This also gives plenty of time for body/van decomposition.

Here are some other thoughts:

The natives (or hostiles) must have been funded or supplied from the outside (unless they stole the gas masks, nerve gas and all weapons from dharma, which I doubt). Obviously Dharma was connected to the outside world so did the natives just take their place? Wouldn't somebody on the mainland realize that their normal contact was no longer there?

Now Richard isn't aging. Does this mean that other natives aren't aging as well? What happened between Richard and Ben that made Ben the leader? Also, all the natives seemed so pissed when Ben said he was taking Locke to Jacob. That beatdown of Mikial was awesome!!

So many questions....


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Only Ben can see Jacob. This makes him the leader. The others were excited that Locke may step in for Ben, since Locke, too, is special. 

I feel like I am very close to figuring this out, but, in reality, I have no idea. Wow.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Finally, does anyone else want to smack Jack? "It's time we catch up." He is now my least favorite character on the island.


Undoubtedly Jack is the worst character on the show. I've never liked him, but this season has been particularly annoying in respect to this character. I have no patience for him and his constantly belligerent attitude.


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

I loved the surprise meaning to the episode title. To me, "The Man Behind the Curtain" was that we were now seeing Ben's true evil side. Holy crap! 

I sure hope Locke survives! He's a great character! Hopefully the Island will heal him like it did with his paralysis. 

Loved Sawyer's expression when Juliet said Kate might be pregnant. Just a fleeting frown crossed his face - very subtle. 

Cheryl


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'm a little confused - didn't Kelvin tell Desmond that he had gone to the island because of the Dharma Initiative? If so, does that mean that not all of them were killed by the nerve gas? The Dharmas were the ones putting the numbers in the computer, obviously someone continued doing that. I guess the people in the "hatch" were protected from the nerve gas. It seems possible that they continued to live in fear of the nerve gas, hence the gas mask that Kelvin wore for at least some time.

Is it possible that the nerve gas is what the "quarantine" labels on the hatch referred to? The people there were already getting injections for something, yet still didn't seem worried about being outside, so it seems that the quarantine and the injections were for two separate things.

Just to make sure I'm closing the loop correctly here - is what Juliet told Jack at the end last week that they should tell Kate, that Ben was making her feed him info, but she had told Jack about it and they were coming up with a plan, but in the meantime she was going to play along and give Ben the info on the tape?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

speedcouch said:


> ...I sure hope Locke survives! He's a great character! Hopefully the Island will heal him like it did with his paralysis.


Me too, and keep in mind the episode ended only a few seconds after he'd been shot. For all we know he gets help within a minute or so.



speedcouch said:


> Loved Sawyer's expression when Juliet said Kate might be pregnant. Just a fleeting frown crossed his face - very subtle.
> 
> Cheryl


Yeah, yet you'd think that it might have occurred to them sooner that something like that could happen.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

I thought the origin of the powder was pretty obvious--they alluded to it very heavily in the very beginning of the show. I think it's volcanic ash. They sure seemed to go out of their way to point out that there was a volcano on the island. 

What this means in the grand scheme of things, I have no idea.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe the "ash" or whatever that Locke picked up before meeting Jacob is how Jacob manifests himself as the monster???


I was going for it being related to Rousseau and the dynamite, myself, personal WAG, she wants to blow up Jacob's place and Jacob so she can get Alex back and leave the island.

Diane


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Finally, does anyone else want to smack Jack? "It's time we catch up." He is now my least favorite character on the island.


I've wanted to smack him for about a year. I wish Sayid would get Medieval on him the next time he gets all superior.

If you were going to commit mass murder and throw the bodies into a pit, wouldn't you cover it up with a couple of feet of dirt?

Not sure why the other Others let Locke bully Ben and beat the living snot out of Patches without lifting a finger.

What happened to the girl that gave Ben the wooden dolls. Did she get gassed too?

Ben is nuts.

I'm still lost but at least the plot is moving at a crisp pace.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> Loved Sawyer's expression when Juliet said Kate might be pregnant. Just a fleeting frown crossed his face - very subtle.
> 
> Cheryl


Shouldn't he have already heard that on the tape as soon as Locke gave it to him?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

In the first film clip they find, the guy from the Hanso Institute references an "incident". Later in season 2, in a flashback, we see Kelvin leaving in the full protective gear (this is after quite some time with Desmond being there) looking for Desmond's boat. Why did he wear the protective gear originally? Because of the "incident". I surmise that the "incident" was the gasing of the original Dharma Initiative. This, coupled with the warning on the hatch, on the inside of it, about biological contaminents is further evidence.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I am in agreement with those who say that Ben really can't see or hear Jacob. He was faking it all along. Remember, he is a master manipulator.
But I don't know who Jacob is. Eye-patch told Locke a few episodes ago that Ben wasn't the real boss. I think he mentioned Jacob at that point but not anything about him.
And speaking of Eye-patch, I think he was one of the last of the Dharma people, perhaps in the hatch at the time of the gassing. They allowed him to live if he kept to himself, although Ben did communicate with him, they must have needed him for something. Eye-patch said this to Sayid before Locke blew everything up. At the time I thought he was lying, but now I think he was telling the truth.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

drew2k said:


> ... Finally, does anyone else want to smack Jack? "It's time we catch up." He is now my least favorite character on the island.


Jack needs a serious ass kicking.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

unixadm said:


> He didn't meet Russo and "have" Alex....they STOLE Alex from her after Alex was born. Ben is not the biological father....and the baby was conceived BEFORE Russo was on the island (or she wouldn't have survived.)


Nevertheless, Ben didn't have Alex *yet* so it has to have been at least 16 years since he killed his father. Probably even more, since I don't think that a newly-converted Hostile would have been given custody of a baby, especially given how important children seem to be to them.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

thedudeabides said:


> I, for one, don't think Ben can hear Jacob. I think he was faking it, which explains why he was so interested that Locke could hear him. Locke has a connection that Ben doesn't. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Locke was unable to kill his father but Ben did kill his dad. ...


I am leaning toward this myself.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

I was trying to hear what Dr. Marvin Candle was saying on the orientation tape that young Ben was watching, but it was difficult with the dialogue over it. I caught a part about the island having special properties that they would be exploring...anyone catch more of that? Or is there a transcript of it?

Anybody catch a scan of the teacher when young Ben was in school? For some reason I thought she might have resembled Mrs. DeGroot - but it's been so long since seeing the pictures of them I'm probably way off on this....


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Lee L said:


> Wow, I can't beleive they killed Locke! If I had to pick a list of people who would not have been killed this epsiode, he would have been near the top for sure. Of course, as mentioned, maybe he will live for whatever reason, but he sure seemed to be getting worse rather rapidly.
> 
> For timeline, I figured that the nerve gassing of the Dharma people had to happen 15 or so years ago as they were still trying to make Ben look younger. I thought they tried to make
> Richard look younger in the flashbacks, but Nestor Carbonel looks young anyway so they might not have been able to do it as sucsesfully as some of the other characters so I am not ready to decalre him immortal just yet.
> ...


Thing is, the present-day Richard looks about the same age, if not younger than Ben. In the flash back Ben was around 12, and not he looks more like 45-50. So 30+ years have passed since then (the Dharmaites were hippies, which would place them in the late '60s/early '70s -- 35-40 years ago).

In the flashbacks Richard looked younger (probably the hair), but still in his late-20s. He should be in his mid-to-late 60s now, which just doesn't fit his appearance. And as for Ben, he certainly aged from his 12-year-old appearance, but I don't think he aged very much in the last 16+ years.

Of course one of the Dharma initiatives was longevity research.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

wprager said:


> In the flashbacks Richard looked younger (probably the hair), but still in his late-20s. He should be in his mid-to-late 60s now, which just doesn't fit his appearance. And as for Ben, he certainly aged from his 12-year-old appearance, but I don't think he aged very much in the last 16+ years.


Ben wasn't born on the island. Maybe Richard was. 
Just a guess.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I apologize ahead of time for any smeeking. I am at work and must be fast - can't read all the posts now. 

Okay so if Ben can't hear Jacob (and the way he talked to Locke about 'what did he say to you' makes me think that) Why did Ben carry on a conversation to a chair? Or can he hear Jacob but not all the time?

And I swear, I woke up this morning thinking about continuity. Help me on this.

Ben and Dad go for a ride. Ben kills Roger Workman. Roger is found in VW years later. Van has tipped over, but doesn't seem to have gone far from original stopping point.

Ben arrives at Dharma Compound after the gassing. Dead bodies still in pretty good shape. (if he is able to close the eyes on Horace, it has not been too long).

Dharma van is found near Losties camp. Walking distance. Dharma Compound is at least two days away from Losties camp.

How did Ben get to Compound in just a couple hours and not a couple days? 

Hey, just for fun, what about Jacob being a Jedi Master? You know a dead one like Obi Wan in Empire.....moving things using the Force, speaking to the chosen one (locke) and appearing in a sort of spectre form?

I really wonder if Jacob is a last remaining Black Rock survivor. Very old. And it may explain why he doesn't like techno stuff like flashlights and such. Or maybe he has just seen what it has done for the environment.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I really disliked this episode. The pacing was terrible. We learned a few things but once again the lost writers decide to offer us spooky unnatural seeming nonsense they likely won't answer this season just to hook us. It may seem like we learned a lot in the present but we didn't... it was basically 30 minutes of ben and locke walking through the forest and blabbing on about a mysterious jacob only to be given virtually no information because everyone decides to speak cryptically. Lots of set up just to tease us once again. A real step backwards from the last few weeks.

Why is anyone offering nonsense theories about ghosts when we have clearly seen that the people on the island can leave the island, interact physically with the real world, and come back?


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

wprager said:


> Thing is, the present-day Richard looks about the same age, if not younger than Ben. In the flash back Ben was around 12, and not he looks more like 45-50. So 30+ years have passed since then (the Dharmaites were hippies, which would place them in the late '60s/early '70s -- 35-40 years ago).
> 
> In the flashbacks Richard looked younger (probably the hair), but still in his late-20s. He should be in his mid-to-late 60s now, which just doesn't fit his appearance. And as for Ben, he certainly aged from his 12-year-old appearance, but I don't think he aged very much in the last 16+ years.
> 
> Of course one of the Dharma initiatives was longevity research.


In reality, Michael Emerson (Ben) is 52 and Nestor Carbonell (Richard) is 39, so something screwy is obviously going on with the aging (which could be used to allow them to bring Walt back in the future having grown a lot more than the time has passed on the island).


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> Ben wasn't born on the island. Maybe Richard was.
> Just a guess.


Is Richard the only "other" we can readily identify in that group compared to the present day 'others'. Besides Ben, that is. Though he was more an adopted other.

Patches comes out of the wilderness with information, you would think, that would be of great interest to the others. The tape recorder has gone missing. It will reveal the 'others' plans to kidnap the women and babies of the Losties. Give them a chance to prepare. The others resolve to do something about it but this is completely interupted by Locke when he lays the smackdown on Patches O'Toole. Is this because the others are concerned about Locke's reaction? What could one guy with no weapon do against several armed 'others'? Does Jacob's reaction to hostility towards Locke have something to do with it?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> ...
> If you were going to commit mass murder and throw the bodies into a pit, wouldn't you cover it up with a couple of feet of dirt? ...


That really bugged me too.

Great episode though.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Why would the 'others' care about covering the bodies up? As long as the pit is several miles from camp, would it make much difference? They just committed murder but they are going to give their victims a "proper burial"?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Quick theory:

The time moves very slowly for the Hostiles. Not sure if it's related to their position on the Island or being born there or what. I'm leaning away from "being born on the Island" because Ben, since coming over to the Hostiles, has not aged much (if at all) in the 16+ years since then.

Time moved at a regular pace for the Dharmaites. Perhaps whatever they were doing to the Island was "magnified" to the Hostiles. What Dharma did over a period of months was happening in a matter of hours or minutes to the Hostiles (I'm talking about the side-effects, like animals migrating to get away/around the fence, etc.) Finally the Hostiles couldn't take it any more so they decided to kill them all. 

Kelvin arrived on the Island after or near the end of the first Gulf War (1991). It is possible that he arrived *before* the gassing incident and not after. 

Lastly, Candle refers to "The Incident". "Teacher" talks about volcanoes. I don't think the "Incident" refers to the gassing, since I don't think that many new Dharma people came to the Island since then. I think the "Incident" is related to the Volcano. The ash Locke picked up may be volcanic ash, as someone already mentioned. I think there were enough clues in this episode pointing to the volcano (which we haven't seen yet -- unless "Jacob" losing is is the volcano going off).


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> I apologize ahead of time for any smeeking. I am at work and must be fast - can't read all the posts now.
> 
> ...
> 
> Hey, just for fun, what about Jacob being a Jedi Master? You know a dead one like Obi Wan in Empire.....moving things using the Force, speaking to the chosen one (locke) and appearing in a sort of spectre form?


Just a little smeek.

From post 23:


mqpickles said:


> It's Qui Gon Jin.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Who the heck is candle?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

So, the sonic fence was only set to "stun". Interesting. Maybe that's the default Energy Star energy-saving setting or something. And it was designed to keep out hostiles.

Clearly, Ben's leadership skills are grating on everyone else. That's why they stood by when Locke beatdown Mikhail. They believe Locke has more right to be the leader, and Jacob seems to feel that way too. As any good Psycho Type-A Evil Leader, Ben doesn't take the news well.

So maybe Richard wasn't just pulling a con job on Locke with Sawyer's file after all. He really was unhappy with Ben.

It would be funny if it's really Jacob that wants off the island, just like the man behind the curtain in the _Wizard of Oz_.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Who the heck is candle?


The narrator of the orientation film from the Swan hatch and the film last night from Ben's flashback.

edit: changed pearl to swan...


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

unixadm said:


> My thoughts on Locke/Jacob/Ben:
> 
> I wonder if Locke will survive because of the Island, because of Jacob's power, whatever it may be, or just because he was lucky and the bullet didn't hit a vital organ.
> 
> ...


I can't take credit for this observation, but is it possible that the gunshot would have been a fatal kidney injury (left side far enough below the heart) but won't be because Locke gave the kidney to his father?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> So maybe Richard wasn't just pulling a con job on Locke with Sawyer's file after all. He really was unhappy with Ben.


The same could be said of Julliete and Alex.

Does anyone see a corellation between Julliette defecting to the Losties in a similar way to Ben's defecting to the hostiles?


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

The gunshot was in the stomach, which doesn't contain any vital organs. And, as someone else already said, Locke only has one kidney anyway, so if it didn't hit the good one, he has a very good chance of survival.

It's my understanding that a shot in the stomach is only fatal if the victim bleeds out, so I'm betting that JL will survive, especially considering the healing powers of the island.

Great episode. I actually thought the Jacob scene was spooky - and I rarely if ever get spooked by a TV show!


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Perhaps once you reach adulthood aging stops or slows down on the island. The only adult who seemed to age was Roger - can't explain that one. But the couple who found the Linuses outside of _Portland_ hadn't aged much when Roger and Ben arrived. Obviously Richard looks the same. Tom appears to be the oldest guy on the island and he isn't _that_ old.

The incident referred to on the orientation video may have been the purge, or it may have been a failure to push the button. Either way, as I said earlier the Swan hatch was heavily armed and, as far as Ben or any of the hostiles knew, impossible to access. Remember how surprised Ben looked when the Losties brought him into the Swan hatch after Rousseau shot him? I think it was legit. That's why Kelvin (or Kelvin's predecessors) survived the purge.

I think Ben somehow convinced the Dharma Initiative it was still active and that's how they were able to continue the drops and access the outside world.

I don't think Locke is dead. I think Richard was sincere when he said Locke had to find his purpose on the island, and I doubt it was to get shot by Ben and die in a ditch. It's weird how much Ben has turned on Locke - after all, Locke was the reason Ben infiltrated the Losties' camp in the first place. Perhaps it _was_ a mistake for Locke to beat up Mikael (although that was a bada$$ scene) -- it showed Ben how much the tide was turning against him.

Finally, a couple of questions - how did Mikael know all of that info about Naomi? All she said was "I am not alone." Maybe he spied on them or took something more than the phone?

Also, were the kids who were with the flight attendant (in last week's episode) the same kids that Eko saved after the crash?


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

I am in the camp that says that Ben can't hear Jacob. 

I believe Ben is acting as the traditional priest/holy man. Dictating to the people with a mandate from God (Jacob). He is afraid that Locke is the real thing.

Locke will live.

I believe the 'ash' line is preventing Jacob from leaving the cabin. The hostiles believe in Jacob and have been believing that Ben can communicate with him. Ben was actually pleased when Locke couldn't see Jacob. And until Locke indicated that Jacob talked, Ben was happy.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> So there really IS "two" sets of Others? For realsies?


No. All the Dharma people are dead (except Ben.)


Sirius Black said:


> In the first film clip they find, the guy from the Hanso Institute references an "incident". Later in season 2, in a flashback, we see Kelvin leaving in the full protective gear (this is after quite some time with Desmond being there) looking for Desmond's boat. Why did he wear the protective gear originally? Because of the "incident". I surmise that the "incident" was the gasing of the original Dharma Initiative. This, coupled with the warning on the hatch, on the inside of it, about biological contaminents is further evidence.


They showed us that you didn't need a suit to be out in the world because Inman was going out in a ripped suit.

Did Dr. Candle give a name in this orientation video? Remember how he said his name was Dr. Wick in the Pearl orientation video?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> In the first film clip they find, the guy from the Hanso Institute references an "incident". Later in season 2, in a flashback, we see Kelvin leaving in the full protective gear (this is after quite some time with Desmond being there) looking for Desmond's boat. Why did he wear the protective gear originally? Because of the "incident". I surmise that the "incident" was the gasing of the original Dharma Initiative. This, coupled with the warning on the hatch, on the inside of it, about biological contaminents is further evidence.


I was sort of thinking this, but in the film, wasn't there some linkage between "the incident" and entering the numbers? Otherwise I'd agree, but I'm not so sure.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

NoThru22 said:


> No. All the Dharma people are dead (except Ben.)
> 
> They showed us that you didn't need a suit to be out in the world because Inman was going out in a ripped suit.
> 
> Did Dr. Candle give a name in this orientation video? Remember how he said his name was Dr. Wick in the Pearl orientation video?


I'm torn on this. It could be that at one time they needed the suits in case of another gassing, and that Kelvin was just going on pretending. But IIRC, not only was the suit ripped, but it looked like it was just a cheap, not really protective suit. Could be misremembering that.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

If Ben couldn't really see or hear Jacob, how did he know he was there? I can't imagine he just made up some guy who turned out to actually be real, but invisible from everyone other than (at times) Locke. But I do think it's possible, likely in fact. Because when he asked Locke what Jacob had said, and Locke responded "help me," Ben wouldn't have thought that Locke was asking for help if he had also heard Jacob say that. Of course, if Locke could only hear Jacob at certain times, it could just be that Ben can see and hear him at times, but he just didn't at the same time Locke did.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

unixadm said:


> My thoughts on Locke/Jacob/Ben:
> 
> Jacob is some kind of real entity......One of the others was able to hear him and take instructions from him. Ben never could. Somehow that person is dead (maybe Ben killed them?) and Ben claims he can hear Jacob, even though he couldn't and has taken over as the leader.
> 
> ...


I'm on board with this explanation. My thoughts when Ben shot Locke were exactly that; Ben couldn't actually hear Jacob, and when Locke did, Ben got pissed and threatened, then shot Locke.


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

Some random thoughts in no particular order...

I assumed the powder/ash/whatever around Jacob's hut was to either keep Smokey the Monster out or to keep Jacob in.

Apparently Ben _didn't_ intend for Locke to take the tape recorder. And apparently Richard really is working against Ben. Maybe Juliet was telling the truth back in the first part of the season when she said that many people were unhappy with the way Ben was running things and wanted a change. Ben certainly isn't as in-control as he appeared.

Locke isn't dead. Mikhail was left for dead and recovered so there is no reason that Locke (who we know is one of the people who heals rapidly on the Island) won't recover as well. Good catch that he may have been shot in the kidney that he no longer has. I suspect that we'll see Locke again in a few episodes.

I think the Others have been somehow maintaining the illusion that the Dharma people are still on the Island, which is why the food drops are continuing. Apparently the submarine was Dharma's as well, and they may be using Dharma's connections in the outside world too.

According to TPTB the Others were only vaguely aware of the Swan station and what was going on there. They knew about it obviously since Ben and Juliet monitor it from the Pearl but since it was pretty well sealed off they may have simply ignored it.

Was that a painting of Vincent in Jacob's hut? Some kind of dog anyway.

When young Ben is watching the orientation video, Candle is saying something about the Hostiles and about staying inside the sonic fence. He also says something about unusual phenomena on the Island that they would be studying. Later, when Ben's father is talking to the guy who recruited him, he says something about Dharma doing research on the Island. So something was going on.

Also, Ben says that the Dharma people couldn't get along with the native population. But (to me at least) it looked like the Dharma people were the ones on the defensive while the "hostiles" were the ones being aggressive. I think we need more info yet on the full story there.

When young Ben was in the school and the ground shakes, was that an attack by the Hostiles, an appearance by Smokey the Monster or had someone over at the Swan been late in pushing the button again?

And, finally, since a volcano has now been explicitly mentioned as of the end of Season 3, does that mean it will have to erupt by the end of Season 6?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm going wit this

Ben can hear/see Jacob
Locke only heard him for that one line
that one line was said ONLY to Locke! So Ben couldn't hear it.

That explains why Ben knew where Jacob was, talked to him, and why he wanted to know what he said to Locke.


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

So Ben keeps the little wooden doll that his little girlfriend gave to him... but we didn't get closure on what happened to her...? Did I miss this? 

He kept the doll around as an adult, so obviously the gift meant something to him. 

If I'm not mistaken, this episode would have taken place sometime around Christmas (2004) on the Island. It was also Ben's birthday in the present (Alex's comment). Which is odd, because the flashback to Ben's birth - it certainly didn't seem like December weather 32 miles outside of Portland.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

wprager said:


> Kelvin arrived on the Island after or near the end of the first Gulf War (1991). It is possible that he arrived *before* the gassing incident and not after.


16-year-old Alex was born in 1988, (it is still 2004 on Lost). Alex must have been kidnapped after the gassing, because, before that, Ben was a mere "work man," and had no authority to go into the jungle to kidnap anyone. And, she had to have been kidnapped as a baby, because she truly believed Ben was her father and remembers no other parent. So, the gassing probably happened before Kelvin arrived in the early to mid 1990s after the Gulf War.

Ben probably told Alex that her mother was Annie.

When Rousseau talks about everyone on her mission, other than her and Alex, getting sick and dying, she's probably talking about the gassing.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

If anyone knows anything about VW's, we could nail down some of the years. When Ben is born, the Dharma guy is driving a Karmann Ghia. On the island, they drive later post-1968 VW Bus. So when Ben and Roger get to the island, it has to be 1968 or later.

Oh, and Ben was born 35 miles from Portland according to the road sign.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

Was anyone else surprised at how nonchalant the losties were when the tape revealed that Kate is likely pregnant?

I know there were some other bombs dropped at the playing at the tape, but you would think there would be at least one "dude! wait, what?" looks...at least from James/sawyer


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

sonnik said:


> If I'm not mistaken, this episode would have taken place sometime around Christmas (2004) on the Island. It was also Ben's birthday in the present (Alex's comment). Which is odd, because the flashback to Ben's birth - it certainly didn't seem like December weather 32 miles outside of Portland.


That's a great catch, depending on which Portland it is. Do we know for sure? Didn't Juliet first meet up with Richard in Oregon on her way to the island? Not that that really confirms which Portland Ben was born near, just wondering if that's what made me think of Portland, OR. They've definitely been pretty good with establishing the time line of the days since they'd crashed on the island, I'd be surprised if they just screwed it up like that. What about the license plate on the car that pulled over to help them, anyone notice?


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Here's a thought: Ben was going to kill Locke even if he didn't see/hear Jacob. After all, he said "once I open this door, there's no turning back." Meaning, you don't get to go back no matter what. Because if Locke didn't hear Jacob, he would tell the others Ben had been fooling them all this time and undermine his authority. By hearing Jacob, he would also undermine his authority.
So why wouldn't Ben finish the job? Locke was still alive when Ben left him.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> Here's a thought: Ben was going to kill Locke even if he didn't see/hear Jacob. After all, he said "once I open this door, there's no turning back." Meaning, you don't get to go back no matter what. Because if Locke didn't hear Jacob, he would tell the others Ben had been fooling them all this time and undermine his authority. By hearing Jacob, he would also undermine his authority.
> So why wouldn't Ben finish the job? Locke was still alive when Ben left him.


Mostly agree, except as to Locke undermining Ben's authority by hearing Jacob. That depends whether Ben had led the rest of them to believe that only he was *able* to see Jacob, or *allowed* to see Jacob. I had assumed the latter. I mean, these people are pretty brainwashed, but I never got the impression that Ben had led them to believe that Jacob was invisible to them, but not him.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

sonnik said:


> If I'm not mistaken, this episode would have taken place sometime around Christmas (2004) on the Island. It was also Ben's birthday in the present (Alex's comment). Which is odd, because the flashback to Ben's birth - it certainly didn't seem like December weather 32 miles outside of Portland.


That's a very good catch. The couple who found the Linuses was driving around with the top down.

I don't think it's a coincidence if Ben's birthday is Christmas.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> That's a great catch, depending on which Portland it is. Do we know for sure? Didn't Juliet first meet up with Richard in Oregon on her way to the island? Not that that really confirms which Portland Ben was born near, just wondering if that's what made me think of Portland, OR. They've definitely been pretty good with establishing the time line of the days since they'd crashed on the island, I'd be surprised if they just screwed it up like that. What about the license plate on the car that pulled over to help them, anyone notice?


We're talking Maine and Oregon, right? Wouldn't both be pretty chilly in December?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

MacThor said:


> I don't think it's a coincidence if Ben's birthday is Christmas.


Why do you say this? I wouldn't classify Ben as a savior. Quite the opposite, in fact.


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

Did anyone notice that the famous LOST "whoosh" sound did not preceed any of the Ben flashbacks.


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## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I've wanted to smack him for about a year. I wish Sayid would get Medieval on him the next time he gets all superior.
> 
> If you were going to commit mass murder and throw the bodies into a pit, wouldn't you cover it up with a couple of feet of dirt?
> 
> ...


I'm thinking she either got gassed, or Ben got her pregnant at some point and she died because of it.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Solver said:


> Did anyone notice that the famous LOST "whoosh" sound did not preceed any of the Ben flashbacks.


I believe it did...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> That's a great catch, depending on which Portland it is. Do we know for sure? Didn't Juliet first meet up with Richard in Oregon on her way to the island? Not that that really confirms which Portland Ben was born near, just wondering if that's what made me think of Portland, OR.


Richard was recruiting Juliet in the episode, "Not in Portland."

I don't recall Juliet's home town.



Not In Portland said:


> ALPERT: Thank you for taking the time to let us make our pitch, Dr. Burke. Mittelos Bioscience is based in Oregon. We're just outside of Portland. [he shows some slides of workers strolling through the grounds] Uh, these shots might seem a little cheese-ball, but our people really are this happy. Now why? Because we're privately funded. Privately funded means freedom. [he shows a slide of people doing outdoor activities] We organize trips every week in and around the Portland area which is just awesome for hiking and biking and river running.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I'm a little confused - didn't Kelvin tell Desmond that he had gone to the island because of the Dharma Initiative? If so, does that mean that not all of them were killed by the nerve gas? The Dharmas were the ones putting the numbers in the computer, obviously someone continued doing that. I guess the people in the "hatch" were protected from the nerve gas. It seems possible that they continued to live in fear of the nerve gas, hence the gas mask that Kelvin wore for at least some time.


Going back to check that out...

And when are we gonna see who this Radzinsky is?


Live Together said:


> [We see Desmond watching the Orientation Film.]
> 
> The Film: Not long after the experiments began, however, there was an incident. And since that time the following protocol has been observed: every 108 minutes the button must be pushed. From the moment the alarm sounds you will have 4 minutes to enter the code into the microcomputer processor.
> 
> ...





Live Together said:


> [FLASHBACK]
> 
> [We see Desmond moving a cart under a blast door. Inman pours some detergent into a measuring cup and stirs it with a paint brush.]
> 
> ...





Live Together said:


> [We see Desmond shaving.]
> 
> INMAN: You've been shaving everyday for the last 3 years. You need to live a little, let go.
> 
> ...


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Solver said:


> Did anyone notice that the famous LOST "whoosh" sound did not preceed any of the Ben flashbacks.


Yes it did - every time.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

hefe said:


> Richard was recruiting Juliet in the episode, "Not in Portland."
> 
> I don't recall Juliet's home town.


Miami. But I think jeff125va was talking about the subsequent Juliet episode where she actually went to the island for the first time. The question, as I read it, was, from where the the plane take off.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

aindik said:


> We're talking Maine and Oregon, right? Wouldn't both be pretty chilly in December?


Or CT, IN, TN, TX, AR, CO, FL or KS.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

A few random thoughts. Anything I say that's already been said is a "+1", not a smeek. 

Someone asked about the teacher (was she DeGroot?). No, I am almost certain she was the wife in the Karmann Ghia.

I thought it was significant that the Hostiles attack (when Ben was in class) was preceded by ground tremors. A normal attack by "natives" doesn't shake the ground. This was something "different". Also, Locke stopping & examining the gray ash was significant, by virtue of the fact they spent so much camera time on it. And since this is Lost, that can only mean one of two things: it will play a prominent role in the future, or it won't.

I don't think Marvin Candle gave his name this time. And the captions kept showing what he was saying while he was being talked over--he mentioned the special properties of the island, and that was why Dharma was there.

Ben's patricide made it obvious why he kept insisting Locke wouldn't be free until he killed his dad; Ben wasn't free until he killed *his* father.

I don't think there can be any doubt that _time_ plays a central role in the mythology of this island, and the story the writers are developing. We have had too many events thrown in our face to ignore. Richard's lack of aging was just another clue.

I saw Ben as a witch doctor type character. The rest of the village obeys him because he has power and controls the spirits. For any of you Anthro majors out there, you know how much power & hold a tribe's witch doctor has. And I think he saw Locke as a competitor to his position, so it was inevitable Ben would want to eliminate Locke. I think Locke was doomed the moment he became insistent about wanting to see Jacob.

I don't have any idea where all of this is leading, but it's a h*ll of a ride. :up:


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

aindik said:


> Miami. But I think jeff125va was talking about the subsequent Juliet episode where she actually went to the island for the first time. The question, as I read it, was, from where the the plane take off.


Right, that's what I was thinking of. Still, it doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of Ben being born near there.


----------



## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe the "ash" or whatever that Locke picked up before meeting Jacob is how Jacob manifests himself as the monster???
> 
> I have no idea...


 Most unique idea I've heard on the boards about the ash. I like this thought.

Barbeedoll


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Maybe the producers are setting a show where the actors really age three years over a storyline 90 days on purpose. Perhaps they're meant to age more quickly than they should.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Thanks Hefe. Hard to know what to make of it though. The entering the code protocol is clearly related to the incident, and it's hard to see what that would have to do with the gassing. I recall that when Desmond was first "rescued" by Kelvin, he and the other guys all had the suits on. Hard to say whether they need them then, or thought they needed them then, or just wanted Desmond to think they did. Kelvin seemed to imply that the suits had something to do with the injections, but a) he was lying to Desmond (don't know to what degree) and b) we saw the Dharma people getting injections last night before the gassing took place.


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

Here's a thought:

Could Annie actually be Russeau? If so, Alex could REALLY be Ben's daughter. The timeline fits...


----------



## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

stalemate said:


> Is Locke Died?
> 
> Maybe someone will get my 5-year-old Fox 24 message board reference.


Yes...I remember! I used to love that board....damn you 24...

Anyway back to our regularly scheduled program...

I believe Jacob is the smoke monster. The smoke monster is contained IN the sonic fence thing, correct? When Juliette and Kate were running from it, they were able to make it OUT of the fence, keeping the monster IN.

Patchy has had a TOUGH week!


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> Could Annie actually be Russeau? If so, Alex could REALLY be Ben's daughter. The timeline fits...


Except that Russeau is French (or at least Canadian) and Annie isn't!


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

pcguru83 said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> Could Annie actually be Russeau? If so, Alex could REALLY be Ben's daughter. The timeline fits...


No.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

pcguru83 said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> Could Annie actually be Russeau? If so, Alex could REALLY be Ben's daughter. The timeline fits...


But wouldn't she have died if she conceived on the island?


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

TonyTheTiger said:


> Except that Russeau is French (or at least Canadian) and Annie isn't!


True, but everyone else on this island lies, why not lie about her name?


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> True, but everyone else on this island lies, why not lie about her name?


Not talking about her name - the accent would be pretty hard to keep up!


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> Why do you say this? I wouldn't classify Ben as a savior. Quite the opposite, in fact.


See...it's not a coincidence, it's _irony_. Maybe Ben is the antichrist? Who knows.

The writers like to play with dates. Remember the Season 2 finale was Thanksgiving. I still don't know the significance of that, but it doesn't seem like the writers do that kind of thing by accident.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

WhiskeyTango said:


> I can't take credit for this observation, but is it possible that the gunshot would have been a fatal kidney injury (left side far enough below the heart) but won't be because Locke gave the kidney to his father?


Even more ironic would be that his kidney grew back because of the island, and he dies, but would have lived if it hadn't been there.
(crazier theories have been posted here, and they were serious)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> Could Annie actually be Russeau? If so, Alex could REALLY be Ben's daughter. The timeline fits...


16 1/2 years ago Rousseau recorded a message that played in a loop that the lostaways picked up on the pilot's radio...

"Please help me, please come get me. I'm alone now, on the island alone. Please someone come. The others, they're, they're dead. It killed them. It killed them all. "

What this has to do with anything, I'm not really sure.


----------



## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

hefe said:


> 16 1/2 years ago Rousseau recorded a message that played in a loop that the lostaways picked up on the pilot's radio...
> 
> "Please help me, please come get me. I'm alone now, on the island alone. Please someone come. The others, they're, they're dead. It killed them. It killed them all. "
> 
> What this has to do with anything, I'm not really sure.


Maybe that corresponds with the purge?

FWIW, I'm not sure that _I_ really believe Rousseau=Annie--just throwing it out there after some LOST discussion with some coworkers.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> (the Dharmaites were hippies, which would place them in the late '60s/early '70s -- 35-40 years ago).


They sure had a lot of weapons for a "bunch of hippies".



NoThru22 said:


> No. All the Dharma people are dead (except Ben.)
> 
> They showed us that you didn't need a suit to be out in the world because Inman was going out in a ripped suit.


That's right but I think that the gassing was Kelvin's' basis for the suit lie to Desmond.



sonnik said:


> So Ben keeps the little wooden doll that his little girlfriend gave to him... but we didn't get closure on what happened to her...? Did I miss this?


I'm guessing that she died in the gassing.



astrohip said:


> I saw Ben as a witch doctor type character. The rest of the village obeys him because he has power and controls the spirits. For any of you Anthro majors out there, you know how much power & hold a tribe's witch doctor has. And I think he saw Locke as a competitor to his position, so it was inevitable Ben would want to eliminate Locke. I think Locke was doomed the moment he became insistent about wanting to see Jacob.


Yet, for a bunch of superstitious hostiles, Richard and others seem to be able to function in the modern world without too much issue.
Ethan was even a surgeon (although he could have been recruited like Juliet).
(And is that part of the reason Juliet isn't as loyal as some of the others?)
What is the true origin of Richard's group?



astrohip said:


> I don't have any idea where all of this is leading, but it's a h*ll of a ride. :up:


That, I can certainly agree with.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Why not put all the crazy stuff together? Everyone is ghosts, rousseau is actually the virgin mary but pretended to be annie, ben is jesus and can travel through time, jacob is god himself. The smoke monster is what we look like to ghosts and deities.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I made the mistake of not posting last night after watching, I just went to bed. Now I feel like I can't participate, too many things to say and respond to.

Incidentally the first thing I thought in the first few minutes of the episode was that something was weird with time. The whole look & feel of that first scene, as soon as the woman said to name him Benjamin, my first thought was it would have had to have been the 50s. I'm only going from memory here, but we saw an old truck, another car that drove by that was newer than 50s, and the Karmann Ghia, which I think was mid-60s. The way they were dressed and their hairstyles were definitely NOT 50s. Then of course the sign, "PORTLAND 32", we were "just outside Portland".

So we have verification that there are/were two groups. Dharma Initiative people, and the natives, or hostiles. Ben defected and gassed Dharma, then the natives took over Dharma's operations. But what if not all of Dharma died? Perhaps there's a group of "others" who are of the original group, but living on the island outside the Dharma operations.

What's also curious to me is how they were able to successfully do all of this. Ben said he brought most of the people here himself, which was likely a lie. How could they have had the infrastructure to bring Juliet there? I mean, think about it... Batmanuel came to the company where Juliet worked, give a presentation on their company (note a slideshow, not powerpoint). He was able to successfully recruit her, and of course get her ex-husband run over by a bus.

How did they successfully infiltrate Dharma yet still maintain its infrastructure? Supply drops were still being performed, fresh food is still being brought. You could say that they're going off-island to get these supplies, then re-labeling. OK, but why? They aren't Dharma, they're the natives!

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts. Most of what I had thought and would have posted has already been said.

Oh, and Locke didn't have sex with her, he was only sleeping. He's not dead.

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

...and ANOTHER thing. This whole episode really makes you think about Adam & Eve a bit. Somehow I don't think they landed there in the 40s.

Greg


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Maybe the "ash" or whatever that Locke picked up before meeting Jacob ...


I haven't read the entire thread yet, but the thing Locke picked up sort of looked like a piece of bone to me. ????


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Forgive me if this is a smeek, but I don't think it is. I read the entire thread and haven't seen this mentioned...

Someone alluded to the fact that Jacob went all bat-sh*t crazy as a reaction to Locke's aggression towards Ben in the shack. That is not what caused Jacob's reaction as I remember it.

Outside the shack, Ben told Locke to shut off the flashlight because Jacob doesn't like technology. Then there is the whole scene in the shack that ends up with Locke calling Ben pathetic. As he is starting to exit the shack, he hears someone say "Help me". He turns around to face Ben and says "What did you say?" As he is saying that, he turns on the flashlight and shines it towards Ben. 

When the flashlight comes on is when things start flashing and flying around the shack. So, in my opinion, Jacob is reacting to the flashlight which Locke was warned about before entering. Anyone else see it that way?

Locke exits the shack and waits for Ben. Ben comes out looking all pale like he has just seen a ghost or gone through something traumatic.

What I don't get is the very next scene. All of a sudden, Ben is looking normal again and is leading Locke back to camp via the pit of bodies.

It seemed like poor editing to me like we missed a chunk of something. Ben was pale and traumatized and then Ben was back to normal in the very next scene.


----------



## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I can't remember everything that was ever covered in this show to form an opinion on it. The first year all we knew about the others is they were hostile and Rousseau intimated they were crazy, all of the voices when the losties wandered away from the camp. Then we meet the others, led by a crazy little bug eyed man and they seem normal, evil, but normal. Now we are back to ghosts, spirits, seeing and talking to dead people. Do the writers really have an objective here or are they winging it and wasting my time? The show does look great in HD though..


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh, whoops, I almost forgot... the beginning of the episode with the weird time stuff. My first inkling was that somehow Ben was aging FASTER than everyone else, but then they showed him as an adult with his dad now old. So now I dunno. 

Greg


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

tanstaafl said:


> And, finally, since a volcano has now been explicitly mentioned as of the end of Season 3, does that mean it will have to erupt by the end of Season 6?


Aha! A whole new take on the "then they were all hit by a bus" method of finishing a story: "then they were all buried in lava". I like it!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markz said:


> Forgive me if this is a smeek, but I don't think it is. I read the entire thread and haven't seen this mentioned...
> 
> Someone alluded to the fact that Jacob went all bat-sh*t crazy as a reaction to Locke's aggression towards Ben in the shack. That is not what caused Jacob's reaction as I remember it.
> 
> ...


I absolutely saw it as "Jacob" reacting to the flashlight. I thought that was pretty clear.

As for Ben's demeanor, it seemed as though he was rattled by the fact that Jacob manifested himself and that Locke could hear him, but as soon as he processed it, he made the decision that he'd have to kill Locke and went back to his cold, calculating self.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> Was anyone else surprised at how nonchalant the losties were when the tape revealed that Kate is likely pregnant?


I didn't hear them say anything about "likely". Juliette just said she was going to be taking samples from all the women, starting with Kate. Besides, on a beach that size it can't be much of a secret that Sawyer and Kate are more than just friends, by now.


----------



## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Me too, and keep in mind the episode ended only a few seconds after he'd been shot. For all we know he gets help within a minute or so.
> 
> Yeah, yet you'd think that it might have occurred to them sooner that something like that could happen.


Or perhaps by striking Locke down, he will become more powerful than Ben could ever imagine.


----------



## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

I'll have to rewatch or find a screencap, but I'm curious what exactly is in the can that Ben opened in the VW killing his father. It would have to be a pretty potent chemical weapon to infiltrate what we're lead to believe is the entire Dharma campsite, particularly being outdoors and not in a confined space in such a short period of time. It also had to dissapate fairly quickly.

Richard seemed to be immediately aware of what it meant when Ben described seeing his mother. I'm curious if at that point the Hostiles began looking to Ben as their future leader.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Wasn't there something in the original Orientation film that suggested it was made around 1980? Am I just totally making that up?


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

JOriginally Posted by sonnik
So Ben keeps the little wooden doll that his little girlfriend gave to him... but we didn't get closure on what happened to her...? Did I miss this?
[/QUOTE said:


> I agree. There was a specific point made to show us Ben closing the eyes of (can't remember his name) when he returned to the compound after the gassing. I imagine if she isn't going to show back up in some way, we would also have seen him do something with her.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> Wasn't there something in the original Orientation film that suggested it was made around 1980? Am I just totally making that up?


I believe that 1980 was the copyright date.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ireland967 said:


> I'll have to rewatch or find a screencap, but I'm curious what exactly is in the can that Ben opened in the VW killing his father. It would have to be a pretty potent chemical weapon to infiltrate what we're lead to believe is the entire Dharma campsite, particularly being outdoors and not in a confined space in such a short period of time. It also had to dissapate fairly quickly.


You're not under the impression that the one can that Ben opened is what killed everyone at his camp as well, are you? I thought the reason he was looking at his watch was because it was a coordinated attack, with the "Hostiles" releasing similar cans around the Dharma camp at the same time that Ben killed his father.

I thought for sure we'd see Ben push the van down the hill, which would be how it got tipped over when Hurley found it.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

pcguru83 said:


> I thought the origin of the powder was pretty obvious--they alluded to it very heavily in the very beginning of the show. I think it's volcanic ash. They sure seemed to go out of their way to point out that there was a volcano on the island.
> 
> What this means in the grand scheme of things, I have no idea.


 That is definitely possible.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrandonRe said:


> I agree. There was a specific point made to show us Ben closing the eyes of (can't remember his name) when he returned to the compound after the gassing. I imagine if she isn't going to show back up in some way, we would also have seen him do something with her.


I thought that looked like Horace Goodspeed, the man who brought he and his father there (except that he didn't appear to have aged like Ben and Roger had).


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

cheesesteak said:


> Not sure why the other Others let Locke bully Ben and beat the living snot out of Patches without lifting a finger.


I thought it was pretty obvious that the other others were not very happy with Ben, that he was taking Locke to see Jacob when no-one else has seen him, or they think that because he is going to see Jacob, Locke may be very powerful/important.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

ireland967 said:


> I'll have to rewatch or find a screencap, but I'm curious what exactly is in the can that Ben opened in the VW killing his father. It would have to be a pretty potent chemical weapon to infiltrate what we're lead to believe is the entire Dharma campsite, particularly being outdoors and not in a confined space in such a short period of time. It also had to dissapate fairly quickly.
> 
> Richard seemed to be immediately aware of what it meant when Ben described seeing his mother. I'm curious if at that point the Hostiles began looking to Ben as their future leader.


When Kate, Jack, and Sayid were gassed, they just used CS gas, which wouldn't have killed everybody.

However, I don't think Ben's one canister of gas killed everyone back at the village. I interpreted it as a planned & coordinated attack between the "hostile" that Ben met in the jungle. The hostile & his men gassed the village while Ben gassed his father in the van.

The "hostile" had told young Ben that he could possibly take him back with him, but he would have to be patient.

I think he meant while they came up with the plan to gas everyone later.

ETA: Oops, Devdogaz types faster than I do.

I looked closely when he set off this canister and couldn't make out what type it was like we could when they gassed the losties and left the village.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

markz said:


> When the flashlight comes on is when things start flashing and flying around the shack. So, in my opinion, Jacob is reacting to the flashlight which Locke was warned about before entering. Anyone else see it that way?


Yes.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

TonyTheTiger said:


> The gunshot was in the stomach, which doesn't contain any vital organs. And, as someone else already said, Locke only has one kidney anyway, so if it didn't hit the good one, he has a very good chance of survival.
> 
> It's my understanding that a shot in the stomach is only fatal if the victim bleeds out, so I'm betting that JL will survive, especially considering the healing powers of the island.


I actually thought the shot looked like in his lower left side and I also though stomach wounds were VERY bad because of the acid/bile that leaks into the abdomen.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

barbeedoll said:


> Most unique idea I've heard on the boards about the ash. I like this thought.
> 
> Barbeedoll


Thanks!

But I somehow highly doubt this is the case.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

mightyb said:


> I believe Jacob is the smoke monster.


Someone as crazy as me


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Jstkiddn said:


> I haven't read the entire thread yet, but the thing Locke picked up sort of looked like a piece of bone to me. ????


No, I think it was pretty clearly an ash/dirt like substance as confirmed by what others in this thread saw.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Horace Goodspeed's uniform said "Mathematician" I believe.....


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> I thought for sure we'd see Ben push the van down the hill, which would be how it got tipped over when Hurley found it.


I wonder if it got tipped/moved when Desmond blew the hatch?


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

WhiskeyTango said:


> I can't take credit for this observation, but is it possible that the gunshot would have been a fatal kidney injury (left side far enough below the heart) but won't be because Locke gave the kidney to his father?


I thought it was more of a lung wound...I guess I am remembering wrong. Can anyone get a screencap?

As for aging...we obviously know that Ben aged from his state as a teen. It didn't appear that Richard, or the man who brought Ben and his dad, aged during that time but Ben's dad looked much older. It could be that his excessive drinking/depression made him age physically. That is known to happen.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Cool show.

I wonder will Walt show up with Michael's body so he can join the others, too? Does Kate qualify for other membership since she killed her dad too? 

I think that while only select people can hear/see Jacob; Jacob can also control which of those hear him at a given time. I think Walt could communicate with him, too; better than Ben, which was more than he bargained for. What does Alex know about Jacob that made her give Locke the gun...?

The tape recorder thing seems weird; if that was really a mistake on Bens part; meaning he didn't intend for Locke to steal it, it seems pretty stupid and out of character, since he put it away in front of Locke. Unless Alpert gave it to Locke...

I think Locke is still alive and will turn out to be nearly invincible while on the island...


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

No screencap here, but it was definitely a gut shot.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

TonyTheTiger said:


> No screencap here, but it was definitely a gut shot.


Here is a screencap showing him holding his gut. No blood though.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/dharma-grave.html


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

atrac said:


> Jacob is the lone survivor of a crash on the island, and everything we see is a figment of his imagination.


Remember that one of the Dharma Initiatives is life extension (Jupe the 150-something year old Orangutan). Maybe Jacob is one of the original Black Rock pirates?
I like the idea that Locke might be Jacob. Or the Son of Jacob. Jacob may have left a family behind a century ago when he went on the sea voyage which ultimately was stranded on the island. And the island had a connection with him as it does with his descendant ... Locke.

BTW, "Russo" is actually spelled ROUSSEAU.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

lordargent said:


> /did Mikail just get another whuppin?


That was a whuppin' of mass destruction.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

The clips over at losteaster eggs also make the circle of ash VERY clear, although I'm still not sure what that means.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Another thing I noticed from the Lost Easter Eggs site is the blackboard behind Samantha Mathis' character (love seeing her get some work!). There's a prominent heading that says BE NICE TO MOTHER EARTH. Could this be a hint that the island is a living entity, averse to people experimenting or violating it somehow?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Dharma refer to the hostiles as "natives." I assume that just means they arrived there before Dharma, because they don't really seem to be south Pacific native to me.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> In the first film clip they find, the guy from the Hanso Institute references an "incident". Later in season 2, in a flashback, we see Kelvin leaving in the full protective gear (this is after quite some time with Desmond being there) looking for Desmond's boat. Why did he wear the protective gear originally? Because of the "incident". I surmise that the "incident" was the gasing of the original Dharma Initiative. This, coupled with the warning on the hatch, on the inside of it, about biological contaminents is further evidence.


I thought this at first too, but it doesn't really hold together, at least the part about the contamination. The hostiles took off their gas masks very soon after the gassing and started hauling the bodies away. It didn't seem at all like they thought the area was contaminated after the initial gassing was over.

Also, the new Dharmaites were getting shots when they checked in. If those were the same as the vaccination that the hatch guys were using, it implies that the biological contamination/sickness issue was known to Dharma before the gassing. We still don't really know what that is about, do we?

I wish we had some idea WHY the hostiles/others wanted to kill all the Dharmaites. And I really don't understand what any of that has to do with the hatch and the numbers and the button. What were the Dharmaites doing? It obviously wasn't just building a hippie commune. And did they send more people after the gassing, or did a bunch of Dharma people survive (in the hatches) and keep pressing the button, etc?


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Ruth said:


> I thought this at first too, but it doesn't really hold together, at least the part about the contamination. The hostiles took off their gas masks very soon after the gassing and started hauling the bodies away. It didn't seem at all like they thought the area was contaminated after the initial gassing was over.
> 
> Also, the new Dharmaites were getting shots when they checked in. If those were the same as the vaccination that the hatch guys were using, it implies that the biological contamination/sickness issue was known to Dharma before the gassing. We still don't really know what that is about, do we?
> 
> I wish we had some idea WHY the hostiles/others wanted to kill all the Dharmaites. And I really don't understand what any of that has to do with the hatch and the numbers and the button. What were the Dharmaites doing? It obviously wasn't just building a hippie commune. And did they send more people after the gassing, or did a bunch of Dharma people survive (in the hatches) and keep pressing the button, etc?


Didn't Richard look at his watch and then remove his mask? I bet the gas dissipates after a certain amount of time.

Also, Ben's father asked him why he kept looking at his watch (if I remember correctly) right before Ben gassed him. That supports my belief that it was a coordinated attack with the "hostiles" back at the village.

So, release the canister at a certain time. And then all clear at another certain time.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

markz said:


> Didn't Richard look at his watch and then remove his mask? I bet the gas dissipates after a certain amount of time.
> 
> Also, Ben's father asked him why he kept looking at his watch (if I remember correctly) right before Ben gassed him. That supports my belief that it was a coordinated attack with the "hostiles" back at the village.
> 
> So, release the canister at a certain time. And then all clear at another certain time.


Sure, I agree with that. I was just saying that the biological contaminant and quarantine signs in the hatch had to refer to something different, since the gas dissipated so quickly.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Ruth said:


> Sure, I agree with that. I was just saying that the biological contaminant and quarantine signs in the hatch had to refer to something different, since the gas dissipated so quickly.


And Kelvin referred to getting "infected" I believe. Rousseau had said something similar too, although I can't recall if it was infected or just sick.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Ruth said:


> I wish we had some idea WHY the hostiles/others wanted to kill all the Dharmaites. And I really don't understand what any of that has to do with the hatch and the numbers and the button. What were the Dharmaites doing? It obviously wasn't just building a hippie commune. And did they send more people after the gassing, or did a bunch of Dharma people survive (in the hatches) and keep pressing the button, etc?


Well, we know Radzinsky and Kelvin survived the initial gassing.

I'd like to know how this ties back to the numbers radio transmission (until Rosseau changed it).


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## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

Doesn't Jacob's sillhoutte look a little like the picture at www.thehansofoundation.org?

I believe the substance Locke saw on the ground was to keep Jacob trapped. Ben somehow has Jacob trapped for his benefit. For Ben to supposedly be so afraid of Jacob, he didn't mind grabbing him and saying things like "You've had your fun...", etc.

Overall, an interesting episode. I never expected to learn more about Ben. I really thought we'd find out that Locke was born on the island which is why Ben sees him as such a threat. That could still play out, though...


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'd like to know how this ties back to the numbers radio transmission (until Rosseau changed it).


This is from the Lost Experience las summer, so...


Spoiler



The numbers represent what are known as the "Core values" from the "Vallenzetti Equations". Long story short, the equations are a forecast model which predicts the extinction of the human race in the (relatively) near future. Dharma was set up to try to manipulate the equations (by changing the social and environmental inputs to them) in order to save humanity.

If any of the core values ever change then humanity is saved. The broadcast was set up so that Dharma and the Hanso Foundation (their sponsors) could monitor the progress of the experiments on the Island. If the numbers in the broadcast ever changed, then they would know that the experiments on the Island had succeeded.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

aindik said:


> When Rousseau talks about everyone on her mission, other than her and Alex, getting sick and dying, she's probably talking about the gassing.


Rousseau didn't say the people got sick (like a cold) and died. She said they started going crazy so _she killed them._


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## jeffo13 (Oct 21, 2005)

I was waiting for Rico Workman to bet Ben that he could throw a football over that mountain. It may have been more than a quarter mile though.

Jeff


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## Christi76 (May 10, 2007)

A couple people mentioned they thought Jacob could be from the Black Rock. I think this is possible after looking at the screencap. If you look closely, he seems to be wearing clothes that could be from the 1700-1800's. There's what looks like a ruffled tunic and then some sort of overshirt or vest. It definitely does not look modern to my eyes, in any case.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

ireland967 said:


> I'll have to rewatch or find a screencap, but I'm curious what exactly is in the can that Ben opened in the VW killing his father. It would have to be a pretty potent chemical weapon to infiltrate what we're lead to believe is the entire Dharma campsite, particularly being outdoors and not in a confined space in such a short period of time. It also had to dissapate fairly quickly.
> 
> Richard seemed to be immediately aware of what it meant when Ben described seeing his mother. I'm curious if at that point the Hostiles began looking to Ben as their future leader.


So that is where Sadaam hid the WMDs


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## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

Anyone else think that Jacob's house could be the big "?" from the middle of the map on the back of the swan hatch door? Nice big circle around it with that powder.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I'm still curious what happaned to Annie. I don't think for a second that he would let her get gassed with the rest. If she were to have been gassed, we would have seen a scene in which Ben found her! He took that doll like she was a long lost memory.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Christi76 said:


> A couple people mentioned they thought Jacob could be from the Black Rock. I think this is possible after looking at the screencap. If you look closely, he seems to be wearing clothes that could be from the 1700-1800's. There's what looks like a ruffled tunic and then some sort of overshirt or vest. It definitely does not look modern to my eyes, in any case.


You know, the clothes Richard was wearing when Ben first met him seemed kind of old century as well...


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## thedudeabides (Aug 7, 2003)

Who's gonna figure out the timeline for us? Anyone? There are dates on the invisible map that could be significant too.


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

jubrand said:


> Anyone else think that Jacob's house could be the big "?" from the middle of the map on the back of the swan hatch door? Nice big circle around it with that powder.


That was apparently the Pearl station (revealed in the episode "?")


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

jubrand said:


> Anyone else think that Jacob's house could be the big "?" from the middle of the map on the back of the swan hatch door? Nice big circle around it with that powder.


The question mark was already discovered to be the Pearl hatch. It even had a question mark over the area when viewed from up high (by Eko.)


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> I wouldn't classify Ben as a savior. Quite the opposite, in fact.


And we all know what the opposite of "saviour" is, don't we? 
"Schmaviour"!


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## Christi76 (May 10, 2007)

danplaysbass said:


> You know, the clothes Richard was wearing when Ben first met him seemed kind of old century as well...


I can't find any good screencaps of Richard to study. Now I wish I had paid more attention!

I did find some other screencaps of Jacob where is clothing is a bit more visable. It indeed looks antique, though it's too shadowed to see details.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jubrand said:


> Anyone else think that Jacob's house could be the big "?" from the middle of the map on the back of the Swan hatch door? Nice big circle around it with that powder.


I think it's possible. Although there was what looked like a question mark  that Eko saw at the Pearl; I think that may be a coincedence/red-herring and what looked to be a question mark may have in fact been a circle, as Eko suggested in the episode.

On the blast door map it seems to indicate that the Pearl is the station to the right of the swan and that the center of the map is unknown.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> If anyone knows anything about VW's, we could nail down some of the years. When Ben is born, the Dharma guy is driving a Karmann Ghia. On the island, they drive later post-1968 VW Bus. So when Ben and Roger get to the island, it has to be 1968 or later.
> 
> Oh, and Ben was born 35 miles from Portland according to the road sign.


I am not reading everything before posting so maybe a smeek. I was thinking the same about the Karman Ghia. It look like a '67-'68 but it is harder to tell from the front than the back. The bumpers suggest anything from 1960-1971. I had a '67 25 years ago.

This means that Ben can be no older than 44. If the car is what I think, it puts him at 37.

sorry if this is covered.


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## Granny (Mar 29, 2005)

Maybe the hostiles _are_ natives. Have we seen them barefoot?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Granny said:


> Maybe the hostiles _are_ natives. Have we seen them barefoot?


The spirit/ghost/figment/whatever of Ben's mom was barefoot. It was clear in the scene where she tells him he can't go with her yet.

...oh... I didn't see your 

...

...nevermind.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Christi76 said:


> I can't find any good screencaps of Richard to study. Now I wish I had paid more attention!
> 
> I did find some other screencaps of Jacob where is clothing is a bit more visable. It indeed looks antique, though it's too shadowed to see details.


Here is a good shot. Click on it to enlarge.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1287-449.html


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

And here's a better screencap of Locke's wound:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1287-658.html


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> The spirit/ghost/figment/whatever of Ben's mom was barefoot. It was clear in the scene where she tells him he can't go with her yet.


No, she was wearing sandals. I know because I was specifically looking to see if she was barefoot like the first Others we were introduced to in Season 1 ...


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

markz said:


> Here is a screencap showing him holding his gut. No blood though.
> 
> http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/dharma-grave.html


That screencap doesn't show much - I recall specifically that the bullet hit him in the on the left side of his torso, too low to have hit his heart, but not by a heckuva lot.

[EDIT: By "that screencap," I meant the original one posted by markz. The one posted two posts above this post shows it perfectly - and exactly as I described it in this post.]


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Here's some more great shots from this episode:
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> Rousseau didn't say the people got sick (like a cold) and died. She said they started going crazy so _she killed them._


Going back to some things Rousseau said in Season 1, Ep. 9, "Solitary."



> SAYID [working on the music box]: And how did you come to be on this island, Danielle?
> 
> [Danielle sighs and looks like she doesn't want to talk about it, but she will as if for the price of the music box.]
> 
> ...





> SAYID: Rousseau, please let me go.
> 
> DANIELLE:Go?
> 
> ...





> SAYID: Please, I don't wish to hurt you.
> 
> DANIELLE: You already have.
> 
> ...


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## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I think it's possible. Although there was what looked like a question mark  that Eko saw at the Pearl; I think that may be a coincedence/red-herring and what looked to be a question mark may have in fact been a circle, as Eko suggested in the episode.
> 
> On the blast door map it seems to indicate that the Pearl is the station to the right of the swan and that the center of the map is unknown.


That's what I was thinking when I posted it. Although I had forgotten about the question mark that you could see when you looked from above.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

One thought and an observation:

1. On young Richard meeting even younger Ben in the woods -- maybe that Richard has a son about the same age as young Ben, and so when we see the same-aged Richard (clean cut) in present day, that might be the grown-up son of the first Richard.

2. On the mass open grave -- in a tropical setting such as the Island, and the rich nutrients supplied by decomposing bodies over a number of years, wouldn't that be a densely overgrown spot for plants? Think about post-forest fires or volcanic eruptions, after a number of years there is always lush vegetation growing over the devastated grounds.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

so the fact that Richard doesn't appear to age, and Ben doesn't appear to have aged much since the "purge" lends new credibility to the "time warp" theories. MITTELOS Bioscience is an anagram for Lost Time and didn't someone in another thread mention that the airline Juliet flew to the island on was an anagram for Earhart, and that there was a woman named Amelia in the book club? What if the "hostiles" are simply a collection of people who have stumbled onto the island at various times throughout history and simply haven't aged?


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## smojo (Aug 4, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> The clips over at losteaster eggs also make the circle of ash VERY clear, although I'm still not sure what that means.


The line on the ground that Locke touched, then was immediately redirected by Ben to leave it alone and keep moving was a big clue. A clue that Jacob is some form of a ghost, the screencaps confirm this by showing he's wearing clothes in a style that is hundreds of years old.

The substance he touched may have been volcanic ash like people have been saying in this thread, but that's not the important part. Volcanic ash contains several different compounds but in this case, the only noteworthy one is _salt_.

And as people have mentioned already, it wasn't a simple line, it's a circle that goes all the way around Jacob's house. A circle that was created by Circle Casting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_circle

Maybe the island is a gateway and Ben has been communing with spirits or ghosts. Ben is certainly motivated to seek out a way to do that since, we saw when he was younger, he was desperately trying to connect with his mother.

The Circle of Salt is there to keep Jacob imprisoned, which is why he said to Locke, "help me!"

Jacob wants the circle broken so he can leave that area. 
The big question is: *Why does Jacob want to leave? *


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## bacevedo (Oct 31, 2003)

This is a first for me - a crazy theory.

What if the island has a fountain of youth, and the hostiles found it and didn't want anyone else to know about it? That's why they purged the Dharma group and don't want anyone to get on the island except through them.

What if this fountain of youth requires someone to age faster (it's "fuel") so someone else can age slower? Maybe that's why they want kids so bad - they can have them around longer to age faster. Once they run out of people to age faster (their source for the fountain of youth) then they themselves begin to age. So in their best interest they want to find and keep children around as their source for the fountain of youth.

Add to that the complication of child bearing on the island - their big interest in trying to solve that problem makes more sense.

This would also tie in nicely to Walt aging faster than everyone else - he was used as a source. (Assuming he comes back)

Honestly, I don't even believe that theory, but it was just something I thought of and it actually tied in to the story and discussion here pretty well. Just having fun throwing out crazy theories and seeing how they could work.

Bryan


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't believe anyone has offered this explanation, but if they have, I apologize for repeating it. I think Ben knows and understands the island really well. He is holding Jacob hostage, but relies on Jacob's insight and guidance. When he took Locke to see Jacob, Ben was well aware that the island could manifest things for people, like his mother, but it can also hide things. Ben was mentally hiding Jacob from Locke, making him silent and invisible. Jacob was there, but hidden, and it took a lot of concentration on Ben's part to maintain that. When Jacob and Locke broke through, and defeated Ben, just for a moment, Ben knew/realized that Locke would someday be immune to Ben's mind-games, and decided that Locke must die. Ben couldn't hide Jacob's tirade and physical movement of stuff from Locke, hence the poltergeist phenomenon, but he did his best to completely shield Jacob himself. Ben didn't want Locke to use a flashlight because it's harder to hide in a bright light than in a flickering lamp light. Jacob started thrashing around when Locke turned on the flashlight because he knew that there would be a good chance that Locke could see him in that light, and he had to try to distract Ben with flying objects to break his concentration.

Just a thought.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I've been wondering if the Others are the descendents of survivors from the Black Rock.
But the way they've been able to move around in the modern world would tend to argue against that.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

scottykempf said:


> Or so we assume. Wait, why would a pregnant woman be on a long research mission on a ship?


And why would a pregnant woman (7 months along) be out on a hiking trip in the woods with her husband??? I found it prettty lame for Roger to blame Ben for his mother's death when maybe he should be blaming himself for takeing his very pregnant wife hiking. That was silly.

As for the aging thing...is it possible that living inside that parameter fence makes you immune to the slow moving time on the island somehow???


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

On here they assert that the purge had to happen later than 1992 (due to model of watch Ben was wearing when he gassed his father) and supposedly actually set in 1992 (so 12 years before now in Lost time))

Does this make sense with Alex's age?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> And why would a pregnant woman (7 months along) be out on a hiking trip in the woods with her husband??? I found it prettty lame for Roger to blame Ben for his mother's death when maybe he should be blaming himself for takeing his very pregnant wife hiking. That was silly.


He probably felt guilty and projected it on Ben.

It's a common Hollywood theme. Mom dies in childbirth. Dad blames kid. Dad just usually isn't as blunt about it as Roger was.

It was surprising to find out that Ben's dad was a beer-swilling janitor. I would have imagined some aloof professor type.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> And why would a pregnant woman (7 months along) be out on a hiking trip in the woods with her husband??? I found it prettty lame for Roger to blame Ben for his mother's death when maybe he should be blaming himself for takeing his very pregnant wife hiking. That was silly.


Not silly for a drunken idiot. People can be like that. Really.

Locke better be careful. That gunshot wound could get infected, what with lying on a pile of long-dead bodies and all.

Greg


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

unicorngoddess said:


> And why would a pregnant woman (7 months along) be out on a hiking trip in the woods with her husband??? I found it prettty lame for Roger to blame Ben for his mother's death when maybe he should be blaming himself for takeing his very pregnant wife hiking. That was silly.


Actually, pregnant women can go for hikes into their eighth month with a doc's OK. In fact, walking/hiking often is recommended for active women in the third trimester, since biking and running can be too much at that point.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/70504_gear16.shtml
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/fitness/walking/


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

gchance said:


> Not silly for a drunken idiot. People can be like that. Really.
> 
> Locke better be careful. That gunshot wound could get infected, what with lying on a pile of long-dead bodies and all.
> 
> Greg


There's nothing to indicate that he wasn't a great husband before his wife died in/right after childbirth. The drunken idiot we saw may very well have been as a result of this.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Ruth said:


> Actually, pregnant women can go for hikes into their eighth month with a doc's OK. In fact, walking/hiking often is recommended for active women in the third trimester, since biking and running can be too much at that point.
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/70504_gear16.shtml
> http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/fitness/walking/


You'd probably really want to be looking at what was typical during the 70's (or whenever it was Ben's mother was pregnant). Smoking and drinking were just fine back then as well.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Ruth said:


> Actually, pregnant women can go for hikes into their eighth month with a doc's OK. In fact, walking/hiking often is recommended for active women in the third trimester, since biking and running can be too much at that point.
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/70504_gear16.shtml
> http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/fitness/walking/


But we're talking about some time in the '60s or...when it wasn't even considered safe to have sex in the third trimester. And while walking is perfectly safe, in my case the doctor recommended it to help induce labor. But to me, hiking suggest more strainuous activities such as climbing and such. I just don't see how someone in their 7th month would be comfortable doing that.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

unicorngoddess said:


> But we're talking about some time in the '60s or...when it wasn't even considered safe to have sex in the third trimester. And while walking is perfectly safe, in my case the doctor recommended it to help induce labor. But to me, hiking suggest more strainuous activities such as climbing and such. I just don't see how someone in their 7th month would be comfortable doing that.


And i think the real concern is should you really be hiking on the side of the road/in the woods somewhere when that pregnant. Walking around you neighborhood is one thing, hiking in the woods with apparently not an obvious/easy/quick egress is another.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

brianp6621 said:


> And i think the real concern is should you really be hiking on the side of the road/in the woods somewhere when that pregnant. Walking around you neighborhood is one thing, hiking in the woods with apparently not an obvious/easy/quick egress is another.


Hmm. My wife and I hiked in the woods in her 7th month in Door County, Wisconsin.


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## DaveyG (Oct 16, 2003)

So, I remembered that we had seen NAMASTE before...on the painting in Penny's dad's office. Pulling up the screencap, I see

A) A polar bear (check!)
B) A sign on something that may be a dock with the word NAMASTE on it (check!)
C) A statue of a Buddha(?)....4 toed statue anyone?????










If I'm right, why does Penny's dad have a painting of the island? Hmmmmm.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> And i think the real concern is should you really be hiking on the side of the road/in the woods somewhere when that pregnant. Walking around you neighborhood is one thing, hiking in the woods with apparently not an obvious/easy/quick egress is another.


Yeah, and they didn't even bring a cell phone.

Oh, wait ...


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## rseligman (Dec 5, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> And wow to explaining the original Dharma Initiative as hippies who were looking for paradise.


Huh? The orientation tape playing in the background was talking about how the island had certain properties, and the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was to study them. I saw nothing about hippies and paradise.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

rseligman said:


> Huh? The orientation tape playing in the background was talking about how the island had certain properties, and the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was to study them. I saw nothing about hippies and paradise.


But Ben later described them as hippies seeking paradise but they couldn't even manage to make peace with the island natives.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

With all the lies Ben told, I'd always believed him when he said he was born on the island. D'oh!

I think Ben used to be able to see/hear Jacob, but no longer does.

And I hope this episode finally puts to rest the argument that the Losties have more blood on their hands than the Others.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ireland967 said:


> I'll have to rewatch or find a screencap, but I'm curious what exactly is in the can that Ben opened in the VW killing his father. It would have to be a pretty potent chemical weapon to infiltrate what we're lead to believe is the entire Dharma campsite, particularly being outdoors and not in a confined space in such a short period of time. It also had to dissapate fairly quickly.
> 
> Richard seemed to be immediately aware of what it meant when Ben described seeing his mother. I'm curious if at that point the Hostiles began looking to Ben as their future leader.


I'm smeeking myself (and maybe someone else) but Ben only gassed his father. He kept looking at his watch, because he knew that the Hostiles would be releasing whatever chemical agent that was over the entire Dharma camp. I don't think Ben gassed everyone -- just his dad.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

When I first saw the purge of the Dharma Initiative, I immediately connected it in my mind to "the incident" -- that is, until I actually looked it up. The comments about "the incident" in the Swan Station video (assuming they can be believed) certainly seem to point to the anomaly as having triggered it. But, that lead to another wacky thought: what if Jacob was affected by "the incident?" 

Lindelof and Cuse have strongly intimated in the official podcast that the explanations will be (pseudo-)scientific and not supernatural (in other words, no ghosts.) What if Jacob went through something like Desmond during the incident, only instead of going all Billy-Pilgrim-unstuck-in-time, he's slightly "out of phase" (in the Treknobabble sense)?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> But Ben later described them as hippies seeking paradise but they couldn't even manage to make peace with the island natives.


Again, what hippies would be carrying (and using) guns?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Wasn't there a flashback where Locke had some modern-day hippie buddies who grew pot and carried guns?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> When I first saw the purge of the Dharma Initiative, I immediately connected it in my mind to "the incident" -- that is, until I actually looked it up. The comments about "the incident" in the Swan Station video (assuming they can be believed) certainly seem to point to the anomaly as having triggered it. But, that lead to another wacky thought: what if Jacob was affected by "the incident?"
> 
> Lindelof and Cuse have strongly intimated in the official podcast that the explanations will be (pseudo-)scientific and not supernatural (in other words, no ghosts.) What if Jacob went through something like Desmond during the incident, only instead of going all Billy-Pilgrim-unstuck-in-time, he's slightly "out of phase" (in the Treknobabble sense)?


RIP, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.


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## zobetron (Apr 17, 2001)

Something I noticed from the vidcaps. Richard by the river has shirt with no modern buttons. Jacob vidcap shows what look like modern round buttons. Or maybe I'm seeing somthing that isn't there?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Regarding Richard not aging....

I was just watching the start of the episode again, and a line struck me. Richard asks Ben about the doll. He says, "It's a birthday present. Today is mine. You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

latrobe7 said:


> ...What does Alex know about Jacob that made her give Locke the gun...?...


IMO, Alex gave Locke the gun as protection _from Ben_, not Jacob. It fits neatly into all her other rebellious *I'll show you _Dad_* behavior - a product of knowing his manipulative and controlling MO.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Ruth said:


> Also, the new Dharmaites were getting shots when they checked in. If those were the same as the vaccination that the hatch guys were using, it implies that the biological contamination/sickness issue was known to Dharma before the gassing. We still don't really know what that is about, do we?


You don't transport people unprotected to a place with a sickness and THEN inoculate them against it. Hello! No wonder Dharma fell!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

hefe said:


> Regarding Richard not aging....
> 
> I was just watching the start of the episode again, and a line struck me. Richard asks Ben about the doll. He says, "It's a birthday present. Today is mine. You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"


I wonder - if Richard and group are very long-lived, maybe they've forgotten or even were never told when their birthday was. Not much of a theory, but there you go.


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## eksimba (Nov 18, 2002)

(Picture: In the editing room. Lost Writer and Director are reviewing the latest footage.)

Writer: "Wait... Back up a few seconds."

Director: "Sure, what do you see?"

Writer: "What's that sandy stuff you got Locke playing with there?"

Director: "Umm... It's powder. Surrounding Jacob's hut."

Writer: "Powder? Who told you to put that in there?"

Director: "You did."

Writer: "I did not!"

Director: "Sure you did. 'Put a ring of powder around Jacob's hut', you said. So I did."

Writer: "You idiot! I said a _ring of power_, not _powder_. How are we supposed to write that into the show?"

Director: "I'm sure you can come up with something. That's pretty cool powder. Lots of potential."

Writer: "Yeah, I guess you're right. Ok, powder it is."


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> Regarding Richard not aging....
> 
> I was just watching the start of the episode again, and a line struck me. Richard asks Ben about the doll. He says, "It's a birthday present. Today is mine. You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"


Smeek.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> You don't transport people unprotected to a place with a sickness and THEN inoculate them against it. Hello! No wonder Dharma fell!


Those were just booster shots...


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Random thought, sorry if it's a smeek:

It's quite interesting that Ben's mother died in childbirth, which is what happens to pregnant women on the island.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

Richard is not a hostile, rather he's a member of DI. Perhaps this whole thing is one long experiment (con?) on Ben, and he's the real test subject. throwing it out there just in case.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

A few lines in this episode standout to me;

"It's a birthday present. Today is mine. You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?" seems to indicate that Richard hasn't aged in quite sometime and no longer celebrates birthdays since they have no meaning to him. My theory is that Richard and the rest of the "original inhabitants of the island" are actually survivors of the Black Rock shipwreck. They discovered the properties of the island and have been trying to keep it a secret from the rest of the world. Then the Dharma Initiative shows up because they have discovered the special properties of the island as well, they live together at first but something happens to sever their truce and the Black Rockers kill the DI. To keep the slaughter quiet and protect the island they continue the DI operations to cover the fact they have all been killed.

Also, I can't remember the exact line but Ben tells Locke to turn off the flashlight "because *like you* Jacob doesn't like technology." I think the "like you" tells us that Jacob is Locke.

Whether Ben knows it or not is debatable. Why would he try and kill Locke knowing that Jacob is future Locke, unless he knows that shooting Locke will not cause Locke's death since future Locke is in the cabin as Jacob. Phew...does that make sense?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> Smeek.


That was just future me.


----------



## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

mostman said:


> I am starting to think the writers really had this planned out. Seriously planned out. Its been a long wait for some answers - but wow.
> 
> Can you imagine what watching all five seasons in a row on dvd will be like 5 years from now?


Exactly what I said to my wife when Ben left his dad's body in the van.

The first time I watched Fight Club, I immediately knew I had to watch it again.
I can't wait to watch this show again from the beginning after it's all done.

Assuming it ends well.


----------



## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

Patches said good thing the fence wasn't set to full power. There was blood absolutely shooting from his ears! Wouldn't whatever causes that be fatal? Oh, well.

Samantha Mathis was in the credits. Where was she? All I can think is that maybe she was the wife of the guy who stopped to help Ben's parents? If so, did she even have any lines?

This episode was insane. So much to think about.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mitchb2 said:


> Samantha Mathis was in the credits. Where was she? All I can think is that maybe she was the wife of the guy who stopped to help Ben's parents? If so, did she even have any lines?


According to LostPedia, she played "Olivia," who was not only the passenger in that car, but was also the teacher on the island. I had no idea those two were the same character until I just looked that up.


----------



## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

Wow...I looked at the teacher specifically because i was looking for Samantha Mathis. Didn't even recognize her. Anyone have a screen cap?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mitchb2 said:


> Wow...I looked at the teacher specifically because i was looking for Samantha Mathis. Didn't even recognize her. Anyone have a screen cap?


From http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Olivia


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

pmyers said:


> I'm still curious what happaned to Annie. I don't think for a second that he would let her get gassed with the rest. If she were to have been gassed, we would have seen a scene in which Ben found her! He took that doll like she was a long lost memory.


may be smeeking but given ben's obsession with pregnancy, I'm guessing she died giving due to being pregnant with ben's child...


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

2 little things:

1. When Annie gives Ben an Apollo bar, she says, "We can have as many as we want." Why is that?

2. We have someone (this time Ben) pouring 2 glasses of whiskey again. This time he actually gives Locke one of the glasses. Of course it's Darma brand whiskey, so presumably not as good as McCallum (or McWhatever).


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

hefe said:


> Regarding Richard not aging....
> 
> I was just watching the start of the episode again, and a line struck me. Richard asks Ben about the doll. He says, "It's a birthday present. Today is mine. You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"


Another question akin to this... are all the other people that are associated to Richard in the flashback also still alive and young?


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> I don't believe anyone has offered this explanation, but if they have, I apologize for repeating it. I think Ben knows and understands the island really well. He is holding Jacob hostage, but relies on Jacob's insight and guidance. When he took Locke to see Jacob, Ben was well aware that the island could manifest things for people, like his mother, but it can also hide things. Ben was mentally hiding Jacob from Locke, making him silent and invisible. Jacob was there, but hidden, and it took a lot of concentration on Ben's part to maintain that. When Jacob and Locke broke through, and defeated Ben, just for a moment, Ben knew/realized that Locke would someday be immune to Ben's mind-games, and decided that Locke must die. Ben couldn't hide Jacob's tirade and physical movement of stuff from Locke, hence the poltergeist phenomenon, but he did his best to completely shield Jacob himself. Ben didn't want Locke to use a flashlight because it's harder to hide in a bright light than in a flickering lamp light. Jacob started thrashing around when Locke turned on the flashlight because he knew that there would be a good chance that Locke could see him in that light, and he had to try to distract Ben with flying objects to break his concentration.
> 
> Just a thought.


I really like this. :up:



devdogaz said:


> I thought for sure we'd see Ben push the van down the hill, which would be how it got tipped over when Hurley found it.


Since they didn't show us, are we to assume he didn't push the van down the hill? If he didn't, how did it get there? I cannot imagine any reason why the van/dead body couldn't just stay where it was? Oh wait, unless they wanted to make sure it was out of the way and mostly hidden...


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mitchb2 said:


> mostman said:
> 
> 
> > I am starting to think the writers really had this planned out. Seriously planned out. Its been a long wait for some answers - but wow.
> ...


I've said it before, I'll say it again... just like Babylon 5.

Some people whined and complained during B5's entire run, where is this heading, can it really be planned ahead? JMS would keep saying yes it is, trust me on this, you've only seen bits and pieces but won't have context until the end.

He was right.

Take, for example, Babylon Squared and War Without End Parts 1 & 2. Here you an episode that airs in the first season, with all sorts of strange time travel stuff going on. In the third season, we see everything again from the OTHER SIDE, and now everything makes sense.

It's not the destination, it's the journey. I love this show.

Greg


----------



## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> I absolutely saw it as "Jacob" reacting to the flashlight. I thought that was pretty clear.
> 
> As for Ben's demeanor, it seemed as though he was rattled by the fact that Jacob manifested himself and that Locke could hear him, but as soon as he processed it, he made the decision that he'd have to kill Locke and went back to his cold, calculating self.


+1 on all counts.

KD


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I might be 'smeeking here, but I thought that the dude in the jungle with young Ben is Richard's father.

Also, its clear the Ben was BS'ing his conversation with Jacob, and couldn't hear him. What's weird is Ben was adamant that Locke not use his flashlight: perhaps because that would alert Jacob to their presence, or wake him? And I think the clay or whatever Locke saw was a ring of something that binds Jacob to that circle. The Island seems to be a mix of supernatural and technology to me at this point.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> I really like this. :up:
> 
> Since they didn't show us, are we to assume he didn't push the van down the hill? If he didn't, how did it get there? I cannot imagine any reason why the van/dead body couldn't just stay where it was? Oh wait, unless they wanted to make sure it was out of the way and mostly hidden...


Hurley found the van at the top of the hill. He drove it down the hill. The only inconsistency is that Ben left the van upright, but Hurley found it on it's side.

I bet it tipped over due to volcanic activity or when the button didn't get pushed in time.


----------



## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

I was just thinking that if Kate is pregnant, Sawyer is effectively responsible for killing her.
Pretty strong motivation for him to help Juliette.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

hefe said:


> Hmm. My wife and I hiked in the woods in her 7th month in Door County, Wisconsin.


Well i'm not trying to question your decisions/action. Just with a 8 month pregnant wife at home, I can't imagine going hiking/doing anything that would put me a significant amount of time/effort from a car and/or hospital.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

markz said:


> Hurley found the van at the top of the hill. He drove it down the hill. The only inconsistency is that Ben left the van upright, but Hurley found it on it's side.
> 
> I bet it tipped over due to volcanic activity or when the button didn't get pushed in time.


 :up: You beat me to this by minutes. We saw what appeared to be a quake of some kind when Ben was in school. They mentioned the volcano more than once. It was likely that activity that tipped over the van.


----------



## RAKEN (Aug 6, 2006)

After last nights episode my girlfriend and I came up with our own theory. The whole thing will have been a dream by Hurley, and he will wake up at the series finally


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

DaveyG said:


> So, I remembered that we had seen NAMASTE before...on the painting in Penny's dad's office. Pulling up the screencap, I see
> 
> A) A polar bear (check!)
> B) A sign on something that may be a dock with the word NAMASTE on it (check!)
> ...


The origin of Namaste was in the beginning of the second season. Dr. Candle used it to sign off in the Swan's Orientation film. He also used it in the Pearl's Orientation film.

I am convinced that Desmond did not travel through time but was living through an altered reality. That is why so many pieces of the Island were peppered into the flashback.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I am convinced that Desmond did not travel through time but was living through an altered reality. That is why so many pieces of the Island were peppered into the flashback.


According to Naomi (if she can be believed), Penelope gave her the latitude and longitude for the island, though she didn't know there was an island there. How did Penelope get the coordinates if not from Desmond traveling through time?


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

aindik said:


> According to Naomi (if she can be believed), Penelope gave her the latitude and longitude for the island, though she didn't know there was an island there. How did Penelope get the coordinates if not from Desmond traveling through time?


From the seismic shocks registered by the seismologists at the North Pole (or someplace cold). Penny was paying them, and they detected when the hatch blew up, with the coordinates being the origin of the seismic shockwave.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

drew2k said:


> From the seismic shocks registered by the seismologists at the North Pole (or someplace cold). Penny was paying them, and they detected when the hatch blew up, with the coordinates being the origin of the seismic shockwave.


Why were they looking over there in the first place?


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

WOW! HFC!!

What a good episode. And I can't believe I just read the entire thread.....phew.....

Most anything I jotted down while watching has been already said, and I would rather not smeek. However, I don't think anyone else noted (other than in one image form the easter eggs website) that the time on Ben's watch while waiting to open the canister was *4*pm........


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

jlb said:


> However, I don't think anyone else noted (other than in one image form the easter eggs website) that the time on Ben's watch while waiting to open the canister was *4*pm........


And people have *4* appendages. Some of the things aren't really the numbers. When a watch says 8:15, those are the numbers.


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

jlb said:


> WOW! HFC!!
> 
> the time on Ben's watch while waiting to open the canister was *4*pm........


What's the significance of that?

And I found this:
http://lost.about.com/od/photosbyepisode/ig/Lost-10x3-Photos/roger.htm


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

aindik said:


> Why were they looking over there in the first place?


IIRC, this was the season 2 finale, and I don't think they were looking at one specific location, but rather were simply at some sort of monitoring station looking for *any* kind of anomalies. When Locke didn't punch in the numbers and the hatch blew, the resulting explosion was so significant it raised alarms at the monitoring station. I'm not sure how they tied the seismic jolt to Desmond, but the seismologist (or whoever he was) immediately called Penny and said something like, "We may have found him."


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

drew2k said:


> From the seismic shocks registered by the seismologists at the North Pole (or someplace cold). Penny was paying them, and they detected when the hatch blew up, with the coordinates being the origin of the seismic shockwave.


IIRC it was a *South * Pole monitoring station - not that it's important.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

drew2k said:


> IIRC, this was the season 2 finale, and I don't think they were looking at one specific location, but rather were simply at some sort of monitoring station looking for *any* kind of anomalies. When Locke didn't punch in the numbers and the hatch blew, the resulting explosion was so significant it raised alarms at the monitoring station. I'm not sure how they tied the seismic jolt to Desmond, but the seismologist (or whoever he was) immediately called Penny and said something like, "We may have found him."


If not Desmond traveling through time, what gave her the idea to look for Seismic anomalies at all?


----------



## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

Wow, that a thread. Almost as good as the episode itself!

Most of my points have been stated, but I guess the thing that sticks with me is the unleashing of the gas, or whatever it was, that seems to have killed everyone without a gas mask. 

I mean, in an enclosed environment like the car is one thing, but people spread out all over a park or wherever they were, all dying immediately? 

With all that was left unexplained (Jacob, Locke, some people aging and some not, the clay Locke smelled, etc.) this seemed to be something they passed along as fact that just doesn't seem right for some reason.


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## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

RAKEN said:


> After last nights episode my girlfriend and I came up with our own theory. The whole thing will have been a dream by Hurley, and he will wake up at the series finally


I've only seen that mentioned on this forum about a half dozen times (and I'm not even a dedicated reader/participant).


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Nah - Hurley doesn't even remotely sound like Bobby Ewing!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

RangersRBack said:


> With all that was left unexplained (Jacob, Locke, some people aging and some not, the clay Locke smelled, etc.) this seemed to be something they passed along as fact that just doesn't seem right for some reason.


I think the gray dirtlike substance that Locke was interested in was smoke monster droppings. But I could be wrong.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Haven't read everything, but throwing out some thoughts.

When Ben was a teenager and came across Richard in the woods Rich looked impressed that Ben had seen his dead mother. Maybe they thought he was someone special that could communicate with Jacob. Perhaps that's how he became the leader.

And it doesn't seem like he got to see his mother. If that's the case you think he would be rather pissed at the hostiles who he worked with to kill the only people he knew since it would seem they used him.

And what was the little girl's name that was his friend when he was younger? Annie? Amy? They didn't specifically show her dead after the gassing. Maybe she left the island before that? Maybe she comes into play later? They showed Linus dead, but not his wife. I just find that interesting.

J


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

rufus_x_s said:


> I've only seen that mentioned on this forum about a half dozen times (and I'm not even a dedicated reader/participant).


It came up after the ep. with Dave, Hurley's imaginary friend.

Raken wouldn't have been on these boards at that time.

Actually, it wasn't so much that Hurley was dreaming it as he is imagining it. But pretty close.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

RAKEN said:


> After last nights episode my girlfriend and I came up with our own theory. The whole thing will have been a dream by Hurley, and he will wake up at the series finally


I'll bet he wakes up hungry.


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## martylamb (Sep 29, 2005)

MacThor said:


> sonnik said:
> 
> 
> > If I'm not mistaken, this episode would have taken place sometime around Christmas (2004) on the Island. It was also Ben's birthday in the present (Alex's comment). Which is odd, because the flashback to Ben's birth - it certainly didn't seem like December weather 32 miles outside of Portland.
> ...


It certainly makes the name "Jacob" more interesting.

Ghosts, time travel, mysterious illness and sudden death, ...

- Marty


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

And certain sounds:



> As an added burden, his spirit was forced to drag around a heavy chain.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

jwjody said:


> And what was the little girl's name that was his friend when he was younger? Annie? Amy? They didn't specifically show her dead after the gassing. Maybe she left the island before that? Maybe she comes into play later? They showed Linus dead, but not his wife. I just find that interesting.


Who is Linus? You mean Horace? At least I think that is the name of the guy that helped Ben's father get the job at Dharma.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Magister said:


> Who is Linus? You mean Horace? At least I think that is the name of the guy that helped Ben's father get the job at Dharma.


Yeah, that's who I meant...sorry.

J


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Linus is Ben's last name. I guess that makes Jacob the security blanket.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

RAKEN said:


> After last nights episode my girlfriend and I came up with our own theory. The whole thing will have been a dream by Hurley, and he will wake up at the series finally


People have already speculated that it will end with Hurley waking up in the mental institution. And I think more recently someone threw out the idea that they were all patients in a mental hospital and the "others" were the doctors.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Hope I'm not smeeking here, I did read the whole thread but remembering all the posts - that's another thing entirely...

At first, I was in the camp that thought that the flash we got of Jacob looked like John Locke with hair: there are a few compelling comparison photos out on the various Lost sites that show a pretty striking similarity. Then, a couple of other people (including people on this thread) have mentioned that they think Jacob looks like Alvar Hanso and I agree there does seem to be a resemblance to the photo of him currently on the hanso foundation website. But, given that Jacob's style of dress looks older, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that we are actually seeing not Alvar Hanso, here, but....



Spoiler



*Magnus Hanso*. As you may recall, Magnus Hanso is the grandfather of Alvar Hanso. A 19th century sea captain and shipping merchant, he commanded the Black Rock and was mentioned on the blacklight hatch map. I know others have already proposed that based on the style of dress we may be seeing someone from the Black Rock; I'm just trying to take it a step further and say that the particular person we're seeing is Magnus.





NoThru22 said:


> And people have *4* appendages. Some of the things aren't really the numbers. When a watch says 8:15, those are the numbers.


True. However, in this case the watch did say 4:00:15 - better?


----------



## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

Random things...

The guys at the monitoring station were looking for electromagnetic anomalies, not earthquakes. When they call Penny they tell her "we found it". Presumably that's where Penny got the coordinates she gave Naomi's people.

I'm still part of the group that says that Desmond _didn't_ travel in time. Desmond has premonitions or visions of the future. We know that. The flashback just showed the first time he started having premonitions. Does everyone assume that the reason he "saw" Naomi arriving on the Island is because he had traveled back from further in the future? No, they accept that as a premonition. So, why couldn't everything in his flashback be a premonition too?

Ms. Hawkings could simply be someone who also has premonitions and was startled when someone did something differently than what she had seen them doing.

Anyway, moving on. According to various sites tracking timelines, the current date in the show is December 22, not Christmas. Close though. (When Juliet leaves her message on the tape recorder she specifically says it is the 18th.)

The mural in the Hatch, the painting in Penny's father's office and the paintings done by Thomas (Claire's old boyfriend) all look similar because they were all done by the same person. Specifically, Jack Bender; executive director. He is an artist and whenever they need some art for the show he tends to put some of his own work in. (Which doesn't mean there isn't an in-story explanation of why they are similar, but that's the real-world explanation.)

Also, the dog in the painting in Jacob's hut is of "Lulu", Bender's dog.


----------



## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

danterner said:


> But, given that Jacob's style of dress looks older, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that we are actually seeing not Alvar Hanso, here, but *Magnus Hanso*. As you may recall, Magnus Hanso is the grandfather of Alvar Hanso. A 19th century sea captain and shipping merchant, he commanded the Black Rock and was mentioned on the blacklight hatch map. I know others have already proposed that based on the style of dress we may be seeing someone from the Black Rock; I'm just trying to take it a step further and say that the particular person we're seeing is Magnus.


Not that I don't believe you, but when did we find out that Magnus was the captain of the Black Rock? That's the first I've heard of it.

EDIT: Never mind, found it in LostPedia. I totally don't remember that though. Seems like a huge connection.

EDIT2: LostPedia makes my head hurt.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jubrand said:


> EDIT: Never mind, found it in LostPedia. I totally don't remember that though. Seems like a huge connection.


It came out during the 'Lost Experience' online game...

BTW, I'm of the mind that Magnus and Alvar Hanso are the same person...


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

tanstaafl said:


> The guys at the monitoring station were looking for electromagnetic anomalies, not earthquakes. When they call Penny they tell her "we found it". Presumably that's where Penny got the coordinates she gave Naomi's people.


Why were they looking for those, then? Where did Penny get the idea that paying someone to look for electromagnetic anomalies would lead her to Desmond?


----------



## ced6 (Jul 30, 2003)

aindik said:


> Why were they looking for those, then? Where did Penny get the idea that paying someone to look for electromagnetic anomalies would lead her to Desmond?


My guess would be that her hunch about electromagnetic anomalies has something to do with something she found out from her dad - maybe something he said or maybe she found some files? We do know that he's involved.

Of course, I'm usually wrong in my hunches about Lost, so I'd be interested to find out more 

Also, I'm sure that this was discussed a long time ago, but is it possible that some of the paintings that show up in different people's houses/offices were painted by Michael? Fairly minor inquiry, but was just curious on whether this has been disproven.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

tanstaafl said:


> The guys at the monitoring station were looking for electromagnetic anomalies, not earthquakes. When they call Penny they tell her "we found it". Presumably that's where Penny got the coordinates she gave Naomi's people.


I'm glad I'm not the only one to remember that they were looking for magnetic anomalies.

Did anyone else notice what looked very suspiciously like a gunshot wound in the head (skull) of one of the skeletons in the pit that Ben showed Locke, and later tossed him into? They lingered on it for a bit and it looks like a gunshot to me, which makes Ben's story about gassing everyone less believable.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> he's slightly "out of phase" (in the Treknobabble sense)?


I was thinking too that Jacob was "out of phase," or in a slightly altered dimension ala TNG. It also would make sense with the whispers in the jungle--people are surrounding you, but you can't quite see them, and can hear them only a little. People like Locke or Walt are more aware of them. It also explains why Richard just suddenly appears to Ben as a boy. They seem to be able to move between "dimensions" at will. Whether this would connect up with Desmond's "time travels" is another question.

Do you think the hostiles forced Ben to kill his father himself rather than just let him die with the rest, or was that his idea?

Jack and Juliet know that a big battle is coming in 3 days, so they start to plan for it themselves instead of going to say, Sayid? They are doctors, not commandos! I think 3 days with everyone working on it is not enough time--what are they waiting for? Unless Juliet really does know something that will defeat Ben.

Do we know that all the Dharma's were killed, or did some know what was coming and have their own gas masks? Then those who were left could seem to be continuing the original project. (whatever that was). Maybe there was a disagreement with one faction wanting to go along with the hostiles and the other fighting them. Also, I wonder if Ben's girlfriend was given a chance to go with him, but refused. ( or I like the died in childbirth idea someone had. :up: )


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one to remember that they were looking for magnetic anomalies.
> 
> Did anyone else notice what looked very suspiciously like a gunshot wound in the head (skull) of one of the skeletons in the pit that Ben showed Locke, and later tossed him into? They lingered on it for a bit and it looks like a gunshot to me, which makes Ben's story about gassing everyone less believable.


I noticed that as well.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> It came out during the 'Lost Experience' online game...


Yikes - I thought he was mentioned in the blacklight map. In that case, I should have spoilered it, right? I'll go back and do it now, but unfortunately some people have quoted me already...


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

There was a big gap between alcoholic dad berating his son, and adult son ready to kill him off and the rest of the Dharma Initiative too. There is more story to tell, and I bet it involves Annie and heartbreak. And a gunshot to the head of one of the survivors, since that body was on top.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

danterner said:


> Yikes - I thought he was mentioned in the blacklight map. In that case, I should have spoilered it, right? I'll go back and do it now, but unfortunately some people have quoted me already...


Magnus is mentioned on the blast-door map; the 'relationship' with Alvar came out in the 'Lost Experience'. I did not consider it a spoiler, but I am not 'spoiler sensitive'.


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

...I'm LOST again.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Church AV Guy said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one to remember that they were looking for magnetic anomalies.
> 
> Did anyone else notice what looked very suspiciously like a gunshot wound in the head (skull) of one of the skeletons in the pit that Ben showed Locke, and later tossed him into? They lingered on it for a bit and it looks like a gunshot to me, which makes Ben's story about gassing everyone less believable.


His "story" was a flashback. I'm not sure what makes it unbelievable. Even if some Dharmites did get shot, they were still "purged."


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

In screen-caps of "Jacob" it *really* looks like he has a monkey sitting on his shoulder. This makes me think of pirates, but perhaps monkeys have been mascots/pets for ocean-going vessels (especially slave ships?) in general, and not just pirate ships in particular.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/11-frames-of-jacob.html

And, yes, Magnus Hanso was the first thing I thought of, but then why do they call him "Jacob"? And what makes them all think he is a "great man".


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

I'll go with the idea of an invisible Jacob for now, but I gotta draw the line at invisible monkeys. I'm not ready to go down that path.


----------



## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

only innocents can see jacob. when richard found ben, ben could see jacob because ben was innocent. thus ben became their leader. but when ben killed his father he was no longer innocent and could no longer see jacob.

so the others steal children under ben's direction (because ben was still their leader after the attack). ben uses the children to "hear" what jacob is saying. when the children get too old, ben brainwashes them to forget that ben is really a fraud.

ben told locke to kill his father because he knew locke would lose his innocence and not be a threat to him. ben won't take juliet to see jacob because she is innocent and poses a threat to him.


----------



## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

bilbo said:


> only innocents can see jacob....


Actually - that's not a half bad theory! Except probably wrong


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

wprager said:


> In screen-caps of "Jacob" it *really* looks like he has a monkey sitting on his shoulder. This makes me think of pirates, but perhaps monkeys have been mascots/pets for ocean-going vessels (especially slave ships?) in general, and not just pirate ships in particular.
> 
> http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/11-frames-of-jacob.html
> 
> And, yes, Magnus Hanso was the first thing I thought of, but then why do they call him "Jacob"? And what makes them all think he is a "great man".


That looks more like his hair in that pic.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

bilbo said:


> only innocents can see jacob.


Not a bad theory except that Locke is far from innocent. Early on he sacrificed Boone. He tried to kill Patchy. And IMHO he is more culpable for his father's death than Sawyer was.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Magnus is mentioned on the blast-door map; the 'relationship' with Alvar came out in the 'Lost Experience'. I did not consider it a spoiler, but I am not 'spoiler sensitive'.


The online stuff is weird. It's obviously not something people get from watching the show and so it's a spoiler by the letter of the rules.

On the other hand, these online games (like the comics for Heroes) are revealing things that the producers have explicitly said they'll never deal with on the show: extra things that they don't have time to do, or don't think the general TV audience would find interesting, or whatever. So in that way they're not really "spoiling" anything that someone would find out in the future by watching the show.

Anyway, I guess that until/unless the rules change, we do spoilerize things from alternate storylines such as the online games or comics, but mention that the spoiler is from those so people can decide whether to view them or not.

My $0.02.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

drew2k said:


> So what was up with the wide line of clay-like granules that Ben stepped over?


Looked like ash to me. My first thought was, "that's what we should have seen between the sonic fence pylons".


TonyTheTiger said:


> The gunshot was in the stomach, which doesn't contain any vital organs. And, as someone else already said, Locke only has one kidney anyway, so if it didn't hit the good one, he has a very good chance of survival.


If that's how this goes, I think our next question is, was Ben just sloppy, or did he leave Locke with a non-fatal wound on purpose? Because I'm having a hard time thinking how that'd be a good step for him, no matter good a manipulator he is.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rosincrans said:


> Not a bad theory except that Locke is far from innocent. Early on he sacrificed Boone. He tried to kill Patchy. And IMHO he is more culpable for his father's death than Sawyer was.


Also, Juliet tried to get Jack to kill Ben. Not quite the same as actual murder, but not innocent either.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> I'll go with the idea of an invisible Jacob for now, but I gotta draw the line at invisible monkeys. I'm not ready to go down that path.





Spoiler



IIRC, the producers on a recent podcast intimated that there would be monkeys in future Lost episodes. A viewer had written in with a question about why there didn't seem to be any monkeys, given that this was a tropical island.

I certainly don't remember anything about _invisible_ monkeys though.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Ok, read all 10+ pages and no one mentioned this:
The code for the electromagnetic pylons is 35944 IIRC...
WTF? 
It should be...4 8 15 16 23 42!  
And I thought it was ice-cold how Ben let his bunny rabbit go through first..man, he is one stone-hearted dude! :down:


----------



## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Regina said:


> Ok, read all 10+ pages and no one mentioned this:
> The code for the electromagnetic pylons is 35944 IIRC...
> WTF?
> It should be...4 8 15 16 23 42!
> And I thought it was ice-cold how Ben let his bunny rabbit go through first..man, he is one stone-hearted dude! :down:


They said that the code changed every day. Since Ben and his group were never in the room with the button they wouldnt know what the number combination was.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

SNJpage1 said:


> They said that the code changed every day. Since Ben and his group were never in the room with the button they wouldnt know what the number combination was.


Well, yeah, ok, but couldn't that day's code be...the numbers?  Throw us a bone, guys!


----------



## dkim68 (Apr 23, 2007)

The one thing that can keep Locke alive!


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Regina said:


> And I thought it was ice-cold how Ben let his bunny rabbit go through first..man, he is one stone-hearted dude! :down:


If I wasn't sure that the fence was deactivated, I might do the same thing. I am loathe to hurt animals, but hey, if I needed to get out through that thing, I'm very sorry Thumper, I'll try to keep you safe, but I'm looking out for myself even more.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

This wasn't the first time we've seen Ben use bunnies for his purposes, so this was just the beginning. Ben might have been a cute and sympathetic Harry Potterish kid, but there's little doubt he's a psychopath now.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

aindik said:


> According to LostPedia, she played "Olivia," who was not only the passenger in that car, but was also the teacher on the island. I had no idea those two were the same character until I just looked that up.


Wow, first time in my years as a member to have someone smeek me . . .

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5139466#post5139466



astrohip said:


> Someone asked about the teacher (was she DeGroot?). No, I am almost certain she was the wife in the Karmann Ghia.


----------



## lodica1967 (Aug 5, 2003)

I haven't seen this mentioned or I just missed it. Couldn't the vaccine be to make them immune to the anti-aging nature of the island? 

You stop taking the shots, you stop aging? Take the shot and you are at the normal off island growth rate, so when you return home you are the age you should be.

Since the hostiles never take a shot, they never age. Not sure how to explain the kids with the hostiles getting older though.

I like the theory that they need the kids to constantly renew their youth, maybe the kids continue to age after their youth is used by the others. With no new births, they must crash planes/boats etc to get a source of kids.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

dkim68 said:


> The one thing that can keep Locke alive!


 :up:Nicely done.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Also, Juliet tried to get Jack to kill Ben. Not quite the same as actual murder, but not innocent either.


Well, Juliet is in no way innocent anymore: she killed one of the Others (remember her trial and commutation of her sentence by Ben).


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Regina said:


> And I thought it was ice-cold how Ben let his bunny rabbit go through first..man, he is one stone-hearted dude! :down:


Murdering your own father via toxic nerve gas is okay, but don't harm the bunny?

Greg


----------



## Mike20878 (Jun 8, 2001)

Christi76 said:


> A couple people mentioned they thought Jacob could be from the Black Rock. I think this is possible after looking at the screencap. If you look closely, he seems to be wearing clothes that could be from the 1700-1800's. There's what looks like a ruffled tunic and then some sort of overshirt or vest. It definitely does not look modern to my eyes, in any case.


Maybe he was just wearing the puffy shirt from Seinfeld.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

gchance said:


> Murdering your own father via toxic nerve gas is okay, but don't harm the bunny?
> 
> Greg


Yeah, but he killed his father when he was an adult. The bunny incident happened when he was a child. Normally children aren't that cruel, so that kind of makes it more creepy, in a sense.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Yeah, but he killed his father when he was an adult. The bunny incident happened when he was a child. Normally children aren't that cruel, so that kind of makes it more creepy, in a sense.


But he wasn't being cruel. He was testing the fence so he could escape without getting killed himself. He wasn't going around hurting rabbits for sport.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

hefe said:


> But he wasn't being cruel. He was testing the fence so he could escape without getting killed himself. He wasn't going around hurting rabbits for sport.


I understand that he wasn't intentionally trying to be cruel, but still...most kids wouldn't risk the lives of their pet to test something out. He seemed perfectly willing to do that.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TheGreyOwl said:


> I understand that he wasn't intentionally trying to be cruel, but still...most kids wouldn't risk the lives of their pet to test something out. He seemed perfectly willing to do that.


Most kids weren't in his situation. What he was testing out was potentially lethal to him. People are often willing to do things that they don't want to do or wouldn't ordinarily do in order to save themselves. I just don't think anything can be inferred from it.


----------



## smojo (Aug 4, 2003)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Yeah, but he killed his father when he was an adult. The bunny incident happened when he was a child. Normally children aren't that cruel, so that kind of makes it more creepy, in a sense.


There were no fluffy pink-nosed bunnies harmed in the filming of this episode of LOST. 

I agree, seeing Young Ben push the bunny through the sonic fence was shocking at first, but he didn't actually hurt the animal, he turned off the fence first.

Seeing him bring his bag full of bunnies and hurling them through the fence at full power would be creepy. Testing a deadly fence is not creepy.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

smojo said:


> There were no fluffy pink-nosed bunnies harmed in the filming of this episode of LOST.
> 
> I agree, seeing Young Ben push the bunny through the sonic fence was shocking at first, but he didn't actually hurt the animal, he turned off the fence first.
> 
> Seeing him bring his bag full of bunnies and hurling them through the fence at full power would be creepy. Testing a deadly fence is not creepy.


The bunny was not hurt. He turned the fence off and tested it with his bunny. The bunny then got smart and ran very fast away. To the otherside of the island, onto a boat and off to another island.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

bilbo said:


> only innocents can see jacob. when richard found ben, ben could see jacob because ben was innocent. thus ben became their leader. but when ben killed his father he was no longer innocent and could no longer see jacob.
> 
> so the others steal children under ben's direction (because ben was still their leader after the attack). ben uses the children to "hear" what jacob is saying. when the children get too old, ben brainwashes them to forget that ben is really a fraud.
> 
> ben told locke to kill his father because he knew locke would lose his innocence and not be a threat to him. ben won't take juliet to see jacob because she is innocent and poses a threat to him.


Interesting theory ... maybe Locke can hear Jacob but not see him because he only "kinda" killed his father - because he had Sawyer do it for him instead of doing it by his own hands.

Also breathes new life into why the Others are so intent on solving the pregnancy/conception/childbirth issues of the island.

As someone said earlier, the theory is undoubtedly wrong (as are all Lost theories), but definitely worth mulling over.


----------



## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

brianp6621 said:


> I actually thought the shot looked like in his lower left side and I also though stomach wounds were VERY bad because of the acid/bile that leaks into the abdomen.


Super Locke will still heal.



balboa dave said:


> There was a big gap between alcoholic dad berating his son, and adult son ready to kill him off and the rest of the Dharma Initiative too. There is more story to tell, and I bet it involves Annie and heartbreak. And a gunshot to the head of one of the survivors, since that body was on top.


+1


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> Random thought, sorry if it's a smeek:
> 
> It's quite interesting that Ben's mother died in childbirth, which is what happens to pregnant women on the island.


They die while pregnant (usually during the third trimester).


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> 2 little things:
> 
> 1. When Annie gives Ben an Apollo bar, she says, "We can have as many as we want." Why is that?
> 
> 2. We have someone (this time Ben) pouring 2 glasses of whiskey again. This time he actually gives Locke one of the glasses. Of course it's Darma brand whiskey, so presumably not as good as McCallum (or McWhatever).


re 1: They fall from the sky!


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So when young Ben came up to the fence, all kinds of whispers could be heard. Does that imply the fence also keeps the spirits away?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> They die while pregnant (usually during the third trimester).


Right. They don't "die in childbirth." If they did, there would still be children.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

wprager said:


> In screen-caps of "Jacob" it *really* looks like he has a monkey sitting on his shoulder.
> 
> http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/11-frames-of-jacob.html


I want some of what you're smokin'


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Since Jacob was seated and pretty far from Ben when we saw him, and Ben was being pinned to the wall, is it logical to assume that Jacob is telekinetic? Stuff was flying around the room, but Jacob was not physically tossing it around the room.

Jacob resembles Locke, which is exactly who I think he is--someone who resembles Locke.

In the Bible, Benjamin is the youngest son of Jacob.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> re 1: They fall from the sky!


Okay, true. But I was thinking more along the line of (a) do they not get fat if they eat a whole bunch of them? and (b) why isn't there some parental figure saying, "you've had enough of those, you'll spoil your supper."?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> Most kids weren't in his situation. What he was testing out was potentially lethal to him. People are often willing to do things that they don't want to do or wouldn't ordinarily do in order to save themselves. I just don't think anything can be inferred from it.


I agree that the mere fact that Ben used the bunny to test the fence doesn't say anything about his character.

But the way the scene was played does. If they'd wanted to write in a few words or even a facial expression showing some concern or emotional attachment, they could have done that. But they didn't (or at least not enough that I remember it), and _that _ says something about Ben. His demeanor was cold, and I believe that was a deliberate choice.

Ben is a sociopath. This scene isn't a big part of showing that, but it's there.


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

I think you said what I was trying to say, but did a better job of it.  That's what bugged me about it...he didn't have that "ohh..I hope my bunny doesn't get hurt" look on his face. He didn't seem to care either way. Plus, he could easily have used a different animal - a lizard, rat, insects, etc. but he chose to use his pet instead.



mqpickles said:


> I agree that the mere fact that Ben used the bunny to test the fence doesn't say anything about his character.
> 
> But the way the scene was played does. If they'd wanted to write in a few words or even a facial expression showing some concern or emotional attachment, they could have done that. But they didn't (or at least not enough that I remember it), and _that _ says something about Ben. His demeanor was cold, and I believe that was a deliberate choice.
> 
> Ben is a sociopath. This scene isn't a big part of showing that, but it's there.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> I agree that the mere fact that Ben used the bunny to test the fence doesn't say anything about his character.
> 
> But the way the scene was played does. If they'd wanted to write in a few words or even a facial expression showing some concern or emotional attachment, they could have done that. But they didn't (or at least not enough that I remember it), and _that _ says something about Ben. His demeanor was cold, and I believe that was a deliberate choice.
> 
> Ben is a sociopath. This scene isn't a big part of showing that, but it's there.


I'm not sure why people can pass judgment on Ben from "The Rabbit Incident." You want to pass judgment from the gassing incident? Fine. But I don't believe** it was established that the bunny was Ben's pet, nor anyone else's pet for that matter. For all we know, it was a rabbit Ben stole from research lab, so in Ben's view killing it quickly from the fence (if he had the wrong code) may have been just as justified as doing nothing and letting the rabbit die slowly in the lab from whatever tests it was being used for. Anyone ever heard of the canary in the coal mine? Same thing here. Ben may have used a research subject (rabbit) for just one more test, possibly with quicker results than the rabbit might otherwise have experienced ...

**I may have missed it.  If so, someone please refresh my memory.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

drew2k said:


> I'm not sure why people can pass judgment on Ben from "The Rabbit Incident." I don't believe** it was established that the bunny was Ben's pet, ...


Ben was shown laying in bed petting the bunny sitting on his chest just before he overhears his dad arguing with Horace about the gunfight, hazard pay, etc... I took it to be his pet, but then it did not bother me that he used his pet bunny to test the fence.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

And I thought _*I*_ over analyzed things.


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Ben was shown laying in bed petting the bunny sitting on his chest ...


 <andrew dice clay> On his chest? Ohh!! If I could do that, I'd *never* leave the house! Ohhh!!</andrew dice clay>



> ... just before he overhears his dad arguing with Horace about the gunfight, hazard pay, etc... I took it to be his pet, but then it did not bother me that he used his pet bunny to test the fence.


Phew! Glad I qualified my post with that footnote!


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

I think that Ben was going to kill Locke until he realized that Locke had actually heard Jacob. At that point Ben looked to me like he was thinking "OH NO! What have I done! I'm in BIG trouble now!" ...so, he left Locke there hoping that Jacob could heal him (or would heal him if, in fact, Jacob wanted Locke to live).


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## rbraddes (Aug 27, 2005)

aindik said:


> If not Desmond traveling through time, what gave her the idea to look for Seismic anomalies at all?


During Desmond's flashback, he was telling his friend that he will spend a number of years on an island (he might even have mentioned the South Pacific) dealing with a huge magnetic anomaly.

If that friend told Penny the story, she'd know to look for magnetic anomalies to find Desmond. Given the course of the race, she'd even know the general area to search.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

rbraddes said:


> During Desmond's flashback, he was telling his friend that he will spend a number of years on an island (he might even have mentioned the South Pacific) dealing with a huge magnetic anomaly.
> 
> If that friend told Penny the story, she'd know to look for magnetic anomalies to find Desmond. Given the course of the race, she'd even know the general area to search.


Yeah, that was my point. Her only reason to look in the area for anything would be Desmond's actually traveling back in time and telling her or someone. If he's not really traveling back in time (as some people in the thread say he's not), then how would she know to look anywhere for anything?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

But it's not time travel, it's visions of the future. As far as we know, when Desmond was painting and fell and hit his head, it triggered his psychic ability or something. He started having these visions of being on this island, he tells his physics friend, Desmond disappears during a race around the world and Penny starts putting things together. There's no time travel needed, just premonitions.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I do not mind spoilers for the most part, in fact I enjoy getting the scoop early, within reason. I wouldn't want to know ALL the Lost twists for next 3 seasons right now, but I do like to look ahead an episode or two.

So, as a service to anyone of similar mind who has not yet seen it; below is a link to a synopsis of the last two episodes of the season. If you don't like spoilers, do not click the link and absolutely, positively DO NOT click the 'Read Major Spoilers' button on that page: spoiler

EDIT: Of course, it may not be accurate; IMO that is kind of the fun of spoilers - when they're wrong. And some of the stuff does not sound like it could be right to me, but it's Lost, so who knows...


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Okay, true. But I was thinking more along the line of (a) do they not get fat if they eat a whole bunch of them? and (b) why isn't there some parental figure saying, "you've had enough of those, you'll spoil your supper."?


It seems those people (as well as some of the crash survivors) have a way of "dealing" with parental figures that get in their way.


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

I watched the episode again and slo-mo'ed/paused the Jacob part, and I think Jacob has a ponytail.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> I watched the episode again and slo-mo'ed/paused the Jacob part, and I think Jacob has a ponytail.


Are you sure it wasn't a monkey's tail?


----------



## claire_d (May 15, 2007)

This is the first time I ever read all the way through one of these threads! Wow! I really think this show is cool, and I like the mystery of things... but reading this thread I now feel like I'm missing tons of stuff!

I need to cozy up on someone's lap for one of these episodes and let someone walk me through it!


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> Yeah, that was my point. Her only reason to look in the area for anything would be Desmond's actually traveling back in time and telling her or someone. If he's not really traveling back in time (as some people in the thread say he's not), then how would she know to look anywhere for anything?


Maybe she contacted the same psychic lady Des talked to when he was picking out the ring?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> I watched the episode again and slo-mo'ed/paused the Jacob part, and I think Jacob has a ponytail.


Are you saying that Jacob might be a centaur? 


claire_d said:


> I need to cozy up on someone's lap for one of these episodes and let someone walk me through it!


How YOU doin'?


----------



## 420s (Feb 22, 2007)

Read through everything and basically everything I wanted to say has been said. I do have a question though. I know it probably doesn't mean anything (then again, everything on LOST means something) but did anyone see the key when Locke was looking at the dust/powder/ash? It was on the right side of the screen, plain as day. I'm surprised no one said anything about it. I know I couldn't be the only one who saw it. Maybe it will come up later with a flashback of someone running from Jacobs house and dropping their key.


----------



## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

420s said:


> did anyone see the key when Locke was looking at the dust/powder/ash? It was on the right side of the screen, plain as day.


A Volkwagon bus key, towards the right of the face of Jesus, about eye-high, in his hair just behind the ear.


----------



## 420s (Feb 22, 2007)

Redux said:


> A Volkwagon bus key, towards the right of the face of Jesus, about eye-high, in his hair just behind the ear.


uh...maybe  
I don't know about the face of Jesus, but I think u know what I'm talking about...maybe


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

markz said:


> Are you sure it wasn't a monkey's tail?


That's it! The gray ash around Jacob's place keeps all of the invisible monkeys from roaming around the island!

The inevitable monkey flashback will make it all clear ...


----------



## claire_d (May 15, 2007)

getreal said:


> How YOU doin'?


I'm doing just fine, thanks!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Delta13 said:


> That's it! The gray ash around Jacob's place keeps all of the invisible monkeys from roaming around the island!
> 
> The inevitable monkey flashback will make it all clear ...


Y'all will be eating crow -- or monkey poop -- when the invisible monkey is revealed! It's Marcel, I tell ya. He's had a bit of a rough time getting jobs, but he is perfectly cast in this role.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I thought Marcel was doing beer commercials


----------



## dkim68 (Apr 23, 2007)

mqpickles said:


> :up:Nicely done.


Thank you, thank you  *takes-a-bow*


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

I finally figured out where I've seen the actress who plays Annie before. She plays the young Melinda in the Ghost Whisperer, and is in the opening credits for that show.


----------



## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

smojo said:


> The line on the ground that Locke touched, then was immediately redirected by Ben to leave it alone and keep moving was a big clue. A clue that Jacob is some form of a ghost, the screencaps confirm this by showing he's wearing clothes in a style that is hundreds of years old.
> 
> The substance he touched may have been volcanic ash like people have been saying in this thread, but that's not the important part. Volcanic ash contains several different compounds but in this case, the only noteworthy one is _salt_.
> 
> ...


I just watched this last night, and that's the first thing I thought of.
I also could have sworn that Locke tasted it.
Why would you taste dirt, ash or smokemonster droppings.
You taste something because you think it might be salty.

Then again, maybe I've been watching too much Supernatural.

phox


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Well, we know Radzinsky and Kelvin survived the initial gassing.
> 
> I'd like to know how this ties back to the numbers radio transmission (until Rosseau changed it).


We don't know how much was lying, but Mikhail gives us some timeline information... according to him, the gassing was 11 years ago.


Enter 77 said:


> MIKHAIL: I grew up in Kiev and joined the Soviet Army. I was stationed at a listening post at Vladivostok. After the Cold War, after we lost the Col War, my unit was decommissioned. I was dismissed from my life in the military. And after years of conducting unpleasant actions against our enemies, I found myself wanting to do something good. So I replied to a newspaper advertisement.
> 
> SAYID: An advertisement?
> 
> ...


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

jwjody said:


> And what was the little girl's name that was his friend when he was younger? Annie? Amy? They didn't specifically show her dead after the gassing. Maybe she left the island before that? Maybe she comes into play later? They showed Linus dead, but not his wife. I just find that interesting.


Just before he left the compound, Ben was looking at the doll Annie made for him. I interpreted that as him saying goodbye to Annie. Perhaps an "I love you, sorry it has to go down like this, but all the Dharma people have to die now."

Plus, they didn't have a second actress who we would be able to identify as an aged Annie.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Did anyone else notice what looked very suspiciously like a gunshot wound in the head (skull) of one of the skeletons in the pit that Ben showed Locke, and later tossed him into? They lingered on it for a bit and it looks like a gunshot to me, which makes Ben's story about gassing everyone less believable.





balboa dave said:


> There was a big gap between alcoholic dad berating his son, and adult son ready to kill him off and the rest of the Dharma Initiative too. There is more story to tell, and I bet it involves Annie and heartbreak. And a gunshot to the head of one of the survivors, since that body was on top.


Or, Ben shooting Locke isn't the first time that Ben has brought somebody (not necessarily a Dharma survivor) to the Dharma pit for the purpose of shooting them.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> :up: You beat me to this by minutes. We saw what appeared to be a quake of some kind when Ben was in school. They mentioned the volcano more than once. It was likely that activity that tipped over the van.


The "quake/volcano" was immediately followed by shooting, and this didn't surprise the teacher. Did the Hostiles trigger the quake/volcano? Did the quake/volcano cause the security ring to fail?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

thenightfly42 said:


> We don't know how much was lying, but Radizinsky gives us some timeline information... according to him, the gassing was 11 years ago.


Er... you mean Mikhail; we have (unfortunately) never seen Radzinsky...

EDIT: Mikhail's last name is Bakunin, BTW


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Er... you mean Mikhail; we have (unfortunately) never seen Radzinsky...
> 
> EDIT: Mikhail's last name is Bakunin, BTW


Sorry, I'll go edit that. Well, it's still interesting timeline information anyway.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

thenightfly42 said:


> We don't know how much was lying, but Mikhail gives us some timeline information... according to him, the gassing was 11 years ago.


I see where Mikhail says he came to the island 11 years ago (assuming he's telling the truth) but where do we learn that the purge was that same year?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Did Ben shoot Locke with the gun Alex gave to Locke? If so, how did he get it? When Ben says "...that makes me considerably smarter than you..." and Locke wheels around he pulls out his knife, not the gun.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

madscientist said:


> I see where Mikhail says he came to the island 11 years ago (assuming he's telling the truth) but where do we learn that the purge was that same year?


OK, make that "less than 11 years".


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Took forever to finish the thread, so there was a lot of stuff I wanted to say that I've forgotten.

One thing though - when I saw the sand/ash/whatever, my first thought was that it was "dead" black smoke.. That is, a smoke-monster/security-mechanism came upon that line and died.

I thought I remembered Ben looking like he was almost mourning the sand/ash/whatever, which made me think maybe he was sad that it was hurt. Maybe the vision of his mother was a smoke monster, and he knew that, and missed that he'd never see/talk-to that apparition again?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> Since Jacob was seated and pretty far from Ben when we saw him, and Ben was being pinned to the wall, is it logical to assume that Jacob is telekinetic? Stuff was flying around the room, but Jacob was not physically tossing it around the room.
> 
> Jacob resembles Locke, which is exactly who I think he is--someone who resembles Locke.
> 
> In the Bible, Benjamin is the youngest son of Jacob.


You mean a Locke-look-alike? 

Terry O'Quinn has a really straight bridge of the nose. The "Jacob" character has a very definite shadow indicating a bump in the bridge. It's not Locke. Also, if you go on the assumption that the close-up of the eye was also Jacob, then it's definitely not O'Quinn, who has blue eyes.

Personally, I don't thinks Jacob is anyone we know. I don't think the person whose profile we see in the chair looks like Locke or anyone else (kinda reminds me of George C. Scott). The close-up we see of an eye strongly reminds me of Desmond, but that could simply be because Desmond has been running around all wild-eyed lately. Also, as I already mentioned elsewhere, there could be 4 people in the room -- maybe when Charlie knocked him out with the paddle Desmond ended up in Jacob's cabin.

Edit: Just read somewhere that there is a "Jacob Vanderfield" character introduced in the "Lost Experience". He is a member of the board of directors of the Hanso Group. Here's a picture:









Not a very big picture, but the bridge of the nose looks pretty straight as well. Oh, well.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

markz said:


> Are you sure it wasn't a monkey's tail?


Laugh-a while you can, monkey boy!*

Wow, look at the pictures and tell me there's *nothing* there. Some people said it looked like the side of his head has a huge hole in it, like an exit wound. Yeah, the invisible guy sitting in a chair having a chat with Ben has a 5" hole in his skull. That makes sense. There's clearly something there. I don't think it's a hole in his head. It could be a part of a hood, since the picture quality is quite bad. But it's pretty hard to deny that it *looks like* the profile of the head of a small animal.

Someone (on Lost Easter Eggs) posted that it looked like a monkey and, frankly, with a 19th century slave ship and people who don't seem to be aging, and what appears to be a 19th century wig with a ponytail on Jacob's head, I didn't think it was a stretch for a monkey (ever watch Pirates of the Caribbean?)

Others have suggested a dog or a cat. Yeah, a dog sitting on a sailor's shoulder is much more likely. A cat? Why not -- maybe the ring of ash is kitty litter.

Actually, one of the more interesting suggestions is that the "ash" is magnetite. It's already been suggested (perhaps even hinted at or confirmed by the producers) that Smokey must maintain contact with the ground. So the ring may very well be a device to keep smokey out. I really don't buy the Voodoo explanations because the producers have gone on record against that kind of stuff.

*Maybe Jacob is Lord John Wharfin


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## mitchb2 (Sep 30, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> IIRC it was a *South * Pole monitoring station - not that it's important.


And you attack the poster...why?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

mitchb2 said:


> TonyTheTiger said:
> 
> 
> > IIRC it was a *South* Pole monitoring station - not that it's important.
> ...


That's your idea of an attack?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

mitchb2 said:


> And you attack the poster...why?


Weird.

You bump a 3 week old thread for an even older post that isn't even an attack?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

If you think _that's_ weird... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5233928&&#post5233928


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

wow I just did a search of Mitchb2's posts going back a couple of weeks.
Wow, just wow.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> wow I just did a search of Mitchb2's posts going back a couple of weeks.
> Wow, just wow.


Yup. I believe he/she/it is the resident forum troll.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Yup. I believe he/she/it is the resident forum troll.


Wow, that's a pretty offensive label you just gave him.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> Yup. I believe he/she/it is the resident forum troll.


Nah, Mitch has been around for a while (check his join date), and has had a lot more posts that have been disappeared.

I guess he and Tony are having issues.


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I guess he and Tony are having issues.


 I hereby nominate this post for Understatement Of The Month!


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Wow, that's a pretty offensive label you just gave him.


"it"?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

drew2k said:


> "it"?


I was going for troll, but sure, whatever's funny. 
It's strange going back to look at an individual person's posts (couldn't resist when Gunnyman said that - I did too). It almost feels a bit like invading someone's privacy, somehow (even though these are all public comments).. well, at least when all of the recent posts seem so negative.

(/jkeegan extracts himself from the conversation)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(but basically, yeah.. wow)


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Okay...now I'm curious...


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## RedDwarfFan (Apr 7, 2007)

Wow - just wow!

Looks like someone's got their very own stalker!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Maybe he had a traumatic incident in his childhood involving Frosted Flakes.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Nah, Mitch has been around for a while (check his join date), and has had a lot more posts that have been disappeared.
> 
> I guess he and Tony are having issues.


For the record, I'm not having issues.

This guy seems to have a rat up his a$$ about something and I appear to be the target.

Ah well, if he gets his rocks off by searching for all my posts and placing a negative comment about them (even when it's a month later), I hope he's having fun doing it!


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