# Will Tivo Stay In Business?



## Joe2525 (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.
*The Tivo Box*
$100 - $300 for a New Tivo Box 
19.99/ mo for Tivo Service
$2 - $7 per mo for CableCard.
Free to $20 for Cable Company to Install.
NO on demand service with cable company
NOT compatible with satellite TV
NO at home service

*Your Cable Company's Box*
No upfront cost for box
Free - $20 per month.
On Demand available
At home service, box fully covered by cable company

I have Verizon Fios. My HD Dual Channel DVR box cost me $20/mo. Since I'm a long term customer I actually get it free of charge now. I've never had any issues. I bought TIVO and found all of these hidden fees (cablecard + REQUIRED TIVO service to simply record). I find it profound this Company is in business. Are there really areas out there where Cable company's don't offer DVR boxes less than all the combined fees of Tivo? I'd say maybe you like the streaming Pandora, Netflix, Blockbuster but come on, all new Blu Ray players do all this already for FREE. The Wii even does Netflix for free. Please help me understand what advantage Tivo offers? Seriously...


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Joe2525 said:


> I bought TIVO and found all of these hidden fees (cablecard + REQUIRED TIVO service to simply record). I find it profound this Company is in business.


Hmm...I hate to call someone out, but how in the world can you honestly say you purchased a TiVo and did not know that it requires CableCards or a monthly service fee?

But my guess is we'll never hear from you again. I'm starting to think all these 'one and done' posters are paid by other companies to post crap here...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

You can do fine with you cable company's DVR. 

Bottom line - I use TiVo because I like the product better than the Cable Co's offerings. A TiVo with lifetime service costs $500 - less money than the iPad I am sitting on the couch typing on. 

In three years of cable co hddvr service fees - the TiVo would be paid for. And I feel I get a better product.. And after all that time I can still sell my S3 w/lifetime on eBay for $300+. Sometimes you need to look at all the numbers!

You may buy a chevy, I want a Caddy -


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.
> *The Tivo Box*
> $100 - $300 for a New Tivo Box
> 19.99/ mo for Tivo Service
> ...


My Cable Company's box sucks. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and hate to call you a troll, and I won't. But you have to figure that this has been discussed a billion times over the past 10 years.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how *BMW *can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the *BMW *world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.


FYP. Or substitute any other product that costs more than a competitor's product--Sony, Bosch, Four Seasons, yada.

Capitalism, remember?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

astrohip said:


> FYP. Or substitute any other product that costs more than a competitor's product--Sony, Bosch, Four Seasons, yada.


I've got a truly puzzling one:



Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how *AT&T* can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new _old_ to the *AT&T* world there was a lot _few things_ I didn't understand.


Now *THAT* one is truly puzzling to me. Deliver the world's worst service (well, OK, almost the worst, and in the U.S. anyway), treat your customers like dirt, and charge more than anyone else for a minimal set of features... and haul in $60 billion a quarter. The TiVo at least offers vastly superior features and aside from cost, most of the drawbacks (the ones he mentions, anyway) are irrelevant. AT&T, though, offers nothing its competitors don't and at nearly twice the price. What is it? Do people like being bent over a table?


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## treat2day (Mar 27, 2010)

Joe2525 said:


> *Your Cable Company's Box*
> No upfront cost for box
> Free - $20 per month.
> On Demand available
> ...


The math here is not exact.

Cable companies charge a monthly fee for the "standard" box, the remote and a separate cost if you own a HD box.

After renting this box for X amount of years and decide to change service or move, you must return or pay a $400 "no return" equipment fee.

I would rather own my TiVo, pay my fee to TiVo, use all the features on TiVo and internet.

Time Warner can keep their junk box with the clunky remote that make users crazy. I am more advanced than many and find the entire cable box setup messy when trying to interact with other devices.

TiVo does a great deal in respect to simplicity.

TiVo cost is no different than an iPhone or iPad. Either you can afford the cost up front and if not--- you go to the cheaper option for the masses.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TolloNodre said:


> Hmm...I hate to call someone out


Oh, go ahead.



TolloNodre said:


> but how in the world can you honestly say you purchased a TiVo and did not know that it requires CableCards or a monthly service fee?


Well, there's nothing that prevents a fool from being honest.



TolloNodre said:


> But my guess is we'll never hear from you again.


Well, it's only been two hours since he posted, but I think you may have nailed it.



TolloNodre said:


> I'm starting to think all these 'one and done' posters are paid by other companies to post crap here...


Oh, come now, if he were going to drop a single Troll Bomb, he surely would have used a simple, common name for his handle, not something unusual and exotic like, "Joe", don't you think? Besides, the large number of posts this mor... er... gentleman has made surely speaks of a genuine interest in the forum.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

It makes my wife happy. That's worth all the money in the world.

Seriously, you used the FIOS DVR and you like the UI?

For me FIOS DVR was $15.99 a month. TiVo is $12.95+$3.99 for cable card = $16.94.

So, TiVo costs me $0.94 a month more than the FIOS DVR does. Bought the box refurbed for $175.

Unlike the FIOS DVR I can get my shows off of it, I get a better UI, and I can hack it and put a 2 TB HD in the box, and wife is happy.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Joe2525 said:


> NO on demand service with cable company


<Yawn>



Joe2525 said:


> NOT compatible with satellite TV <snip>
> 
> *Your Cable Company's Box*


You're seriously suggesting the CATV company's box is compatible with Satellite?

Go back under the bridge where you belong.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

Joe2525 said:


> I find it profound this Company is in business. Are there really areas out there where Cable company's don't offer DVR boxes less than all the combined fees of Tivo?


I'm guessing you haven't used my cable company's DVR's if you find it profound. Assuming that all DVR's are equal is just as blind-eyed as assuming that any of anything else (pick a topic) is all identical. In any case, even though I'm relatively new, this topic is beyond being a beaten dead horse. What new discussion material is this thread actually bringing to the table?



Joe2525 said:


> *The Tivo Box*
> $2 - $7 per mo for CableCard.
> Free to $20 for Cable Company to Install.


Further, I don't pay any of these. Be careful assuming trends based on a single data point.



lrhorer said:


> AT&T, though, offers nothing its competitors don't and at nearly twice the price.


Well, except the iPhone. Though this mystery existed well before the iPhone IMO. I can say in my case, when I was at&t they provided coverage where I needed it at the time but this is really offtopic.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Like the OP i dont have to pay for the FiOS DVR but everything about it sucks. VZ's latest box with a 500g HDD shows promise but the GUI software and guide relaibility still suck and makes what i pay for TiVo well worth while.


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## Shanezam203 (Jul 28, 2007)

bradleys said:


> You can do fine with you cable company's DVR.
> 
> Bottom line - I use TiVo because I like the product better than the Cable Co's offerings.


Same here. You can use the cable companies DVR and have good luck with Season Passes & recording movies similar to what I do on my Tivo. If the box has issues, bring it to a shop & get a new one pretty much same day & just are out your recordings.

With Tivo, I enjoy the functionality over Comcast's DVR. I like the user interface and the Speed of the software. Suggestions is nice with thumbs up and down and I think overall the Tivo is very reliable. I didn't pay for install of my cable cards and I got locked into a deal $3 for my two multi stream cards. I'm on Lifetime so in fact Tivo will be LESS than going with the local cable companies DVR boxes for $6 - 15 in time...

Shane


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## TooMuchTime (Jun 29, 2008)

> Unlike the FIOS DVR I can get my shows off of it...


This is the reason I gave up Uverse and went back to Comcast and TiVo. I was pretty happy with Uverse; the quality was good, the channel lineup was comparable to Comcast, and I did like that I could record 4 SD or 2 SD and 2 HD programs at once. I could also watch any recording from anywhere else in the house. With TiVo, I have to copy the program to another box. It's just a limitation I live with.

However, the limitation with Uverse that I could not live with was the inability to save recorded content to a PC. Which is strange because Uverse *is* your home network! I was able to view photos and listen to music from a shared PC but not copy back to it. TiVo allows for this and I use the recordings as part of my video library. I only save movies for which I don't have a DVD, and when I get the DVD, I delete the file.

I know that Uverse partnered with Microsoft for their DVR, so I'm pretty sure that it's Microsoft's facistic view of digital rights management. What else is new.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.
> *The Tivo Box*
> $100 - $300 for a New Tivo Box
> 19.99/ mo for Tivo Service
> ...


For me to buy another TiVo now, I'd pay $469 with lifetime service. Comcast does not charge for CableCARDs. This lets me store 45 hours of HD programming.

For me to add a Comcast HD DVR, I'd pay $15.95 per month so the payback is 30 months. I can store 20 hours of HD programming. I've had my existing Series 3 for longer than that already. I don't care if it's compatible with satellite TV since I have cable. Comcast's DVR isn't compatible with satellite TV either. I did pay $20 for them to roll a truck and install the CableCARDs on a Sunday afternoon so I guess technically my payback would be 31 months.

I don't need or want Comcast's On Demand service. Just about everything I could get is for an extra charge. I use Netflix for my On Demand requirements.

So the simple answer for me is that the TiVo DVR gives me better DVR features and more storage than the Comcast DVR for less money.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Here's another little gotcha, not a biggie, but still...

My daughter has a cable box in Atlanta (Comcast I think). She moved a couple weeks ago, and they told her she had to bring the old box in and get a new one for her new address. I found this hard to believe, but that's what she said. So she loses the shows she's saved up when she turns it in.

Of course, with a TiVo, you can take all those shows you're "gonna watch one of these days" with you, as often as you like, until it's an anchor.


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## E94Allen (Oct 16, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Here's another little gotcha, not a biggie, but still...
> 
> My daughter has a cable box in Atlanta (Comcast I think). She moved a couple weeks ago, and they told her she had to bring the old box in and get a new one for her new address. I found this hard to believe, but that's what she said. So she loses the shows she's saved up when she turns it in.
> 
> Of course, with a TiVo, you can take all those shows you're "gonna watch one of these days" with you, as often as you like, until it's an anchor.


Does it convicted her to go with TiVo instead of DVR box provided by cable after this happened?


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## Andyistic (Sep 25, 2009)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue. Seriously...


What you should ask is how can Tivo stay in business knowing they have all these issues with their Series 4 units, which they aren't trying to resolve?

I have Tivo because it lets me transfer high-def recordings to the computer for editing.
Can't do this with the cable company's DVR. (Motorola).

The Tivo unit lets me stream to my TV.
Also can't do this with the cable company's DVR.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Andyistic said:


> What you should ask is how can Tivo stay in business knowing they have all these issues with their Series 4 units, which they aren't trying to resolve?


What issues? Hulu isnt up and running yet. My Series 4 Premiere is not having any issues. It works just fine in every regard. When and if they get the second core online the thing is going to be fast as lightning, its a bit faster than my HD now even using the HUI, way faster using the SUI and my TiVo HD is fast.


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## Joe2525 (Dec 29, 2010)

Due to the overwhelming response I put together some comments that hopefully address most replies. In no particular order...

1.	Many of you are right, I should have done my due diligence and understood all fees involved. I suppose you could equate this to buying a Hybrid and not expect to pay for gas. Although I&#8217;d expect the independently generated electricity to be free, which it is. The way TiVo has been marketed over the past month, cost $100 + 19.99/ mo (1 year contract) implied to me that they were trying to upsell their &#8220;Cadillac&#8221; service. I figured the box would at least do the basic functions (channel info, record, playback) and you&#8217;d pay extra only for additional features (on demand movie library, music streaming, internet browsing). I&#8217;m ok with TiVo charging for extra services that actually use their servers and require their resources to maintain. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong but I thought the ability to record, rewind, channel info, playback were all features requiring stand alone resources (TiVo Box + Network provider; in my case, Verizon). To me this would be like your cell carrier charging for wireless services and the ability to snap pictures with the camera phone. If you cut your iPhone wireless service at least the independent features like audio/video playback and apps still work.
2.	Contrary to popular belief, I&#8217;m not a troll and you are hearing back from me.
3.	Personally, the AT&T debate is much like the arguments on this forum. I agree and it doesn&#8217;t help that the CEO makes statements about their long term customer retention plan being wireless contracts/ETF&#8217;s but for some people it just works better. If all your friends and family are on AT&T it&#8217;s much easier for you to switch to the network for the M2M than motion everyone in your circle to switch. Much has to do with where you live and what&#8217;s available much like TiVo. I find Verizon Fios offers an excellent package that meets my needs at a more affordable cost than the competition (including TiVo). In many big cities AT&T is terrible (from what I&#8217;ve experience in LA and NYC). Then of course there is the iPhone. Customer loyalty will be much clearer in 2011 with the release of the CDMA iPhone (Verizon compatible). I apologize for the off topic ATT rant but I wanted to address this reply.
4.	Yes, I understand all Cable providers are not the same but from my sample (Time Warner, Verizon, and Comcast) it appeared to be the better option. Although I cannot attest to the superior functionality of Comcast or Time Warner as I haven&#8217;t used them. My analysis was mostly cost based. I made this post for the purpose of understanding what&#8217;s out there. Here in NYC we live a bit of a superficial world with many options and much capitalism. 
5.	The yawn remark to the lack of Cable Co. provided On Demand service is a bit arrogant. I could make the same statement for the abundance of unnecessary features TiVo users pay for monthly. Some people actually love their Cable Co. provided On Demand service. Yes, you could make the argument that you simply need to record it and it&#8217;ll be just like On Demand but for some people it just works better for them. I found a very helpful idea on this forum suggesting that you could simply split the cable feed into the basic digital Cable Co. provided box and the TiVo providing both the missing On Demand and Tivo features.
6.	I didn&#8217;t suggest the CATV company&#8217;s box is compatible with Satellite. As a 3rd party operator I think negotiations to make TiVo compatible should be in the works. Since DirectTV offers a DVR box it appears doable. Go back under the bridge? Really? Although I&#8217;m overly impressed with your 3,600 + posts, we can all go without your egotistical attitude. Last time I checked you weren&#8217;t a moderator.
7.	The ability to save recordings to an external device is nice. In fact part of the reason TiVo seemed appealing.
8.	I was unaware of the option to purchase lifetime service for a fixed cost. Further research shows this is transferable if you&#8217;d like to sell to an outside party. &#8220;Only Product Lifetime Service can be transferred to a new owner. If you want to give a TiVo DVR with any other service plan to a new owner, you first must cancel or transfer your service to a different DVR so that the new owner can create their own account. You can transfer Product Lifetime Service because it belongs to the DVR, not the owner. &#8220; 

In summary, I appreciate the constructive feedback. I&#8217;m sorry if I missed a few replies. My rant primarily stemmed from TiVo allowing the box to work free of charge for a few days and then all of a sudden locking me out. When I called TiVo to ask them to sell me on the product they were practically speechless and couldn&#8217;t offer anything of value. In my situation, I have a HD Dual Channel DVR. Space might be limited but I don&#8217;t let 10&#8217;s of hours of recording build up. I pay nothing for the box and Verizon services it and offered to give me an upgrade at no cost. I have a Blu-Ray player connected to the internet and can easily stream YouTube, Netflix, Pandora, and Blockbuster. Being able to transfer recorded material to an external device is nice but not worth a new monthly payment. The ability to purchase a lifetime subscription sounds like it could save over the long term but you&#8217;ll continually be paying to upgrade your box and for technical service.


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## Joe2525 (Dec 29, 2010)

Joe2525 said:


> 8.	I was unaware of the option to purchase lifetime service for a fixed cost. Further research shows this is transferable if youd like to sell to an outside party. Only Product Lifetime Service can be transferred to a new owner. If you want to give a TiVo DVR with any other service plan to a new owner, you first must cancel or transfer your service to a different DVR so that the new owner can create their own account. You can transfer Product Lifetime Service because it belongs to the DVR, not the owner. 


"You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:

You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number."
- Tivo Support

This seems like another deal breaker. If you can't upgrade your DVR and maintain your Lifetime subscription how can it be worth it? Every year new and better options become available in the tech world. I feel as though you'd be limiting yourself. This would mean that those who purchased a non HD TiVo with lifetime service must now pay another lifetime service fee to take advantage of HD and all the other advancements. If you're the type of person who keeps up with technology I don't see TiVo saving any money in the long run.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Also, how about that great HD recording capacity that FIOS and all the other cable co. boxes give you? I had to keep removing shows or watch them when we did not want to in order to not run out of room. I have 3 TiVo HD boxes and I have upgraded all of them to a 1 TB drive...that's 157 hours EACH of HD recording and the 1 TB drives only cost about $60 now! We can record the whole season of shows like V and watch them when we want...they do not even dent the 157 Hours!


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Joe2525 said:


> ...The way TiVo has been marketed over the past month, cost $100 + 19.99/ mo (1 year contract) implied to me that they were trying to upsell their Cadillac service. I figured the box would at least do the basic functions (channel info, record, playback) and youd pay extra only for additional features (on demand movie library, music streaming, internet browsing)....My rant primarily stemmed from TiVo allowing the box to work free of charge for a few days and then all of a sudden locking me out.


Okay, now I get it. You thought that you could pick up a TiVo for $100 and not pay the monthly fee but still have a bare bones DVR?

Sounds like you want a Moxi. Of course that's $600 but no monthly fee! Somehow I don't think you'll be happy with that though...


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Joe2525 said:


> Due to the overwhelming response I put together some comments that hopefully address most replies. In no particular order...
> 
> 1.	Many of you are right, I should have done my due diligence and understood all fees involved. I suppose you could equate this to buying a Hybrid and not expect to pay for gas. Although Id expect the independently generated electricity to be free, which it is. The way TiVo has been marketed over the past month, cost $100 + 19.99/ mo (1 year contract) implied to me that they were trying to upsell their Cadillac service. I figured the box would at least do the basic functions (channel info, record, playback) and youd pay extra only for additional features (on demand movie library, music streaming, internet browsing). Im ok with TiVo charging for extra services that actually use their servers and require their resources to maintain. Correct me if Im wrong but I thought the ability to record, rewind, channel info, playback were all features requiring stand alone resources (TiVo Box + Network provider; in my case, Verizon). To me this would be like your cell carrier charging for wireless services and the ability to snap pictures with the camera phone. If you cut your iPhone wireless service at least the independent features like audio/video playback and apps still work.


The monthly fee isn't for the additional features. You are, in essence, licensing their software, paying for software updates, the guide data, etc. You can still watch recordings already on the Tivo without service as well as use the Pause, FF, and RW features of live TV.



> 2.	Contrary to popular belief, Im not a troll and you are hearing back from me.


We've seen a ton of these one and done posts that trash Tivo and never come back, hence the troll comments.



> 3. Much has to do with where you live and whats available much like TiVo. I find Verizon Fios offers an excellent package that meets my needs at a more affordable cost than the competition (including TiVo).


Good for you. Tivo may not be for you then. What you want isn't what Tivo offers.



> 4.	Yes, I understand all Cable providers are not the same but from my sample (Time Warner, Verizon, and Comcast) it appeared to be the better option. Although I cannot attest to the superior functionality of Comcast or Time Warner as I havent used them. My analysis was mostly cost based. I made this post for the purpose of understanding whats out there. Here in NYC we live a bit of a superficial world with many options and much capitalism.


Your cost based analysis is flawed since you are assuming only the $19.99/month plan which is new and temporary. You did not consider the Lifetime option or the standard $12.95/month and $9.95/month MSD prices, or the prepaid options either.



> 5.	The yawn remark to the lack of Cable Co. provided On Demand service is a bit arrogant. I could make the same statement for the abundance of unnecessary features TiVo users pay for monthly. Some people actually love their Cable Co. provided On Demand service. Yes, you could make the argument that you simply need to record it and itll be just like On Demand but for some people it just works better for them. I found a very helpful idea on this forum suggesting that you could simply split the cable feed into the basic digital Cable Co. provided box and the TiVo providing both the missing On Demand and Tivo features.


Not arrogant, just the way a person who knows how to use their Tivo thinks. You are used to using limited recording on your DVR so On Demand is very useful. Multiply that recording capacity by 15 and On Demand becomes much less relevant. I, and many others here, don't have to worry about missing shows and turning to On Demand, we just record whatever seems somewhat interesting with the chance that we might like it. Same goes for movies on premium channels like HBO and Showtime. BTW, Tivo does offer VOD through Amazon and Blockbuster.



> 6.	I didnt suggest the CATV companys box is compatible with Satellite. As a 3rd party operator I think negotiations to make TiVo compatible should be in the works. Since DirectTV offers a DVR box it appears doable. Go back under the bridge? Really? Although Im overly impressed with your 3,600 + posts, we can all go without your egotistical attitude. Last time I checked you werent a moderator.


They are in the works and have been for some time. Tivo and DirecTv used to have a box back in the day before they decided to offer their own DVR. Older S2's still work with DirecTV if you were so inclined. See my post above regarding trolls.



> 7.	The ability to save recordings to an external device is nice. In fact part of the reason TiVo seemed appealing.


There is much that can be done with this including moving to PC, archiving to DVD, and watching on portable devices.



> 8.	I was unaware of the option to purchase lifetime service for a fixed cost. Further research shows this is transferable if youd like to sell to an outside party. Only Product Lifetime Service can be transferred to a new owner. If you want to give a TiVo DVR with any other service plan to a new owner, you first must cancel or transfer your service to a different DVR so that the new owner can create their own account. You can transfer Product Lifetime Service because it belongs to the DVR, not the owner. 


Which creates a resale value where you can recoup some of your costs if you decide to upgrade to a newer unit. Much like trading in a used car for a new one instead of leasing year after year with nothing to show for it in the end.



> In summary, I appreciate the constructive feedback. Im sorry if I missed a few replies. My rant primarily stemmed from TiVo allowing the box to work free of charge for a few days and then all of a sudden locking me out. When I called TiVo to ask them to sell me on the product they were practically speechless and couldnt offer anything of value. In my situation, I have a HD Dual Channel DVR. Space might be limited but I dont let 10s of hours of recording build up. I pay nothing for the box and Verizon services it and offered to give me an upgrade at no cost. I have a Blu-Ray player connected to the internet and can easily stream YouTube, Netflix, Pandora, and Blockbuster. Being able to transfer recorded material to an external device is nice but not worth a new monthly payment. The ability to purchase a lifetime subscription sounds like it could save over the long term but youll continually be paying to upgrade your box and for technical service.


The CSR you talked to is there to help solve account and technical problems, not deliver a sales pitch. If you only watch 10's of hours of TV, you may not be the right person to get a Tivo. Others of us watch 100's of hours of TV. Across 3 Tivos I have over 300 hours of programming.

Great that your Blu Ray has some of the same features as Tivo. I have an alarm clock and camera, why do I need a phone that does that? It's about consolidation and convenience.

Lifetime subs are a great option and you do save over the longer term. As for technical service, I've had ZERO need for it in 6 years with 3 Tivos. The fact that your Verizon DVR does need it says enough. Not saying Tivos don't break, but there are plenty of examples of people still using old units as far back as the S1's.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Joe2525 said:


> "You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:
> 
> You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
> The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
> ...


New Tivos do not come out every year, more like every 3-4 years. 
S1 - 1999
S2 - 2002
S3 - 2006
S4 - 2010

I still have 2 S2 Tivos running alongside a S3. All have Lifetime and the two S2's have been essentially running for free for a few years now based solely on the Sub costs, still very useful. Got my first in 2004 and second in 2007. Breaking down the LT cost of those times, they cost me (including cost of the unit) $8.30 & $15.33 per month respectivley, and continue to drop each month they continue working. Of note, both of those Tivo's were purchased with much larger HD's than stock Tivos causing the purchase price to be higher than normal.

It's worth it because there is resale value in a LT Tivo. Two Tivo generations later and LT S2's are still selling for around $200 on ebay. If I were to sell the Tivo's mentioned above that would leave my total OOP costs at $400 each, which comes to $5.55/month & $10.25/month. Both of which are well below what cable companies charge. So your assumption that they don't save in the long term is just wrong.

$15.95 a month for six years for a Comcast box would have cost me $1,148.40 per box. There are many people here that have old S1 and S2 boxes still running along with the newer HD models. You find a use for them...put it in a kids room or a guest room, or give it to someone who doesn't use HD. Or in my case, one in the bedroom and the other on a separate input in the living room to record shows on channels I don't get in HD.


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## 10811 (Nov 23, 2001)

I have 6 TiVo's:

1 Series1 Phillips HDR-212 stand-alone (avg. cost/mo. over it's lifetime w/$5/mo DirecTV decoder box = $6.89)
3 Series1 DirecTiVo's
- 2 Hughes GXCEBOT's (lifetime avg. mo. cost = $5.46/ea)
- 1 Sony SAT-T60 (lifetime avg. mo. cost = $5)
2 Series2 HR10-250 DirecTiVo's (lifetime avg. mo. cost = $5/ea)

1 HR20 DirecTV HD DVR. (lifetime avg. mo. cost = $20.41 and I don't get to keep it...)

My Series1 stand-alone was bought in 2000. Hard to believe it's almost 11 years old! My 2 Hughes DirecTiVo's were bought in 2001 for $100 installed COMBINED cost. My Series1 Sony was free in 2006. My Series2 HR10's were FREE in 2009. All of these are networked (and have been since 2001), and have been upgraded to between 290 & 900 hours of SD recording time with the best interface of any DVR I've seen or used. With an 11 year old box still running strong, I have every expectation that it'll last another 2 to 5 years.

The HR20 (DirecTV's own DVR) is both horrible, clunky and only used when HD recording is "required". Still waiting for the new HD DirecTiVo, hopefully early 2011 then I can kick this HR20 crap to the curb.

Like the original poster mentioned, Netflix streaming is available on just about every game console, TV & Blu-Ray player out there now not to mention AppleTV, Roku and other "streaming" players so I have no need for the Netflix streaming on my TiVo since that's not what's compelling to me. What you get out of your DVR is directly related to your viewing habits and preferences. If I see a movie or TV show I might be interested in and it's not available on Netflix, I add it to my Netflix & TiVo wishlists and at some point in the future it shows up on one or the other. Cable & DirecTV/Dish "VOD" offerings are a complete waste of money in my opinion. At $4.99+ per VOD it only takes 2/month to equal a Netflix subscription with WAY more titles available through the DVD service than any VOD can offer including Netflix's own streaming!

With 5 people in the house, it's much easier to have a DVR for each individual's taste and it keeps the suggestions for one person from being polluted by another person's preferences. My wife doesn't want her TiVo to suggest anything from the Military channel and frankly, I don't want any suggestions from the WE network or my kids suggestions from the Cartoon Network.

I realize this is a "cable" oriented thread, but with DirecTV I pay for the $5 DVR service once and only pay the $5/mo. decoder box fee for each additional TiVo. All my TiVo's cost me a grand total of $40/mo. including the decoder box for my stand-alone series1 w/lifetime subscription which was only $250 when I bought it back in 2000.

What would it cost to do this with Comcast, FIOS or UVerse DVR's... or standalone TiVo's w/cable cards?

I'm just sayin'... 

P.S.
I just realized how old my signature was! DANG that was a LONG time ago...


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

plazman30 said:


> It makes my wife happy. That's worth all the money in the world. <snipped> can hack it and put a 2 TB HD in the box, and wife is happy.


LOL. My totally non-tech wife insists on TiVo which is fine with me. In fact, we took the giant leap to OTA and I doubt we will ever pay for TV service again.

Wife also insists we keep our home number that we've had for over 30 years. Ooma internet phone is next. We can port our current number.

Puts our OTA TV/netflix/Ooma home phone/ Fios 25-25 internet bill at less than $70/mo. from $170/mo. year ago with Directv/Verizon home phone/DSL. That extra $1000+ a year can come in handy.

This recession has shown me how much money I've burned needlessly. It's kinda fun and a challenge to see how miserly I can be. Hopefully, I won't revert back to my reckless ways when things improve. Retirement isn't that far away.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

My sister uses the heck out of On Demand. Basically if there's any movie on TV she thinks she'll like, especially the free Lifetime variety she'll check On Demand and so often it's on there. We've watched so many episodes of shows there too, and she doesn't even have a DVR. However recording the same movie w/ TiVo gives you the same commercial-free experience, just (probably) not the sheer amount of pre-recorded shows available. I have a series 2 box so I still have to use the full cable box and not a cable card, so I can use on demand if I want, but that thing is so damn slow to respond to commands (rew, FF, play, pause), I never bother with it when I'm by myself. 

Joe, I think a lot of folks without TiVo are asking themselves the same questions you posed here, and not buying TiVos as a result. Two basic reasons I can think of:

1) You're either the renting type or the owning type. If you're the renting type, despite any potential financial or other benefits, at the end of the day you want to be able to tell the owner of the equipment to shove off and walk away without too much hassle or financial liability. Is the product you're stuck with less than? Maybe. But in your mind you can walk away easier. 

2) If you haven't used a TiVo on an extended basis, you won't exactly know what you're missing. "TiVo, that's a dvr, right? I've got the cable company's box here and it records shows fine." Not to mention the cable company has an edge because it's one less company for their customers to deal with. 

As for your question how can they make money? I don't know, they weren't doing so good profit-wise last time I checked, something like they hadn't really turned a profit for more than a handful of quarters (max) in 10+ years of existence. I didn't pay too much attention but some really smart people on here explained to me how that wasn't really a problem.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

WhiskeyTango said:


> The CSR you talked to is there to help solve account and technical problems, not deliver a sales pitch. If you only watch 10's of hours of TV, *you may not be the right person to get a Tivo*. Others of us watch 100's of hours of TV. Across 3 Tivos I have over 300 hours of programming.


This is a great point, that many people don't understand. A casual TV viewer can live with almost any POS. If you miss a show, or never knew one was coming up that may interest you, who cares. My daughter (mentioned in post above) wasn't thrilled about losing her recorded but unwatched shows when she turned in her cable DVR, but she also didn't lose a minute of sleep over it. I, OTOH, will make decisions based on criteria like that.

I have 75+ SPs, and about 50 WL. They are critical to my TV watching and enjoyment. No cable DVR can do what I do with a TiVo. But that's me...YMMV.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

My Premiere was $150 plus $200 for lifetime. $350. 

FIOS multi-room DVR was free for 6 months and then $20/mo after that or $16/month for the standard DVR. With Tivo it is $4/month for FIOS cablecard.

Do the math. I'm doing better (after 2 years) with the Tivo DVR. Not to mention Tivo is the better DVR experience with more storage space.

Don't miss On-Demand because it is not very complete and is awkward to use. IT's buried in the FIOS menu system. And the HD selection is limited. My Premiere is On-Demand anyway.

That being said I say be a mercenary and go to the DVR that leaves the most money in your pocket as I've found the service provider DVRs get the job done. I'm not going to pay much more for Tivo because of that and because the Premiere HDUI is slow and because the extra internet features don't work that great.

Anyway nothing new. We've beat this dead horse quite a few times. The debate depends alot on pricing. and that varies due to your circumstances like location, how much money you want to pay up front, previous Tivo ownership, etc.


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## HerbalEd (Jul 1, 2009)

TolloNodre said:


> Hmm...I hate to call someone out, but how in the world can you honestly say you purchased a TiVo and did not know that it requires CableCards or a monthly service fee?
> 
> But my guess is we'll never hear from you again. I'm starting to think all these 'one and done' posters are paid by other companies to post crap here...


Wow, I can't believe how rude so many of you are. Poor Joe states some concerns and criticism of Tivo and asks for your opinions, and he's insulted and accused of being a troll. Was it because he dared to question the sanctity of Tivo? Did he upset you fundamentalist Tivo fan boys?

I've had the same DirecTv Tivo unit for over 10 years and it works perfectly and the only trouble I've ever had is having to reboot maybe three times. But Tivo is by no means perfect and like everything in life, there are some trade offs ... esp. as time passes and other units and services improve and innovate while Tivo does little.

After two years of empty promises of a new HD DirecTv-capable Tivo I am on the verge of jumping ship myself. I'm tired of waiting and meanwhile DirecTv has improved their HD DVR to the point where I think I can live without my wonderful Tivo.

Now you fan boys can have a got at me ... or instead, get a life.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

HerbalEd said:


> Wow, I can't believe how rude so many of you are. Poor Joe states some concerns and criticism of Tivo and asks for your opinions, and he's insulted and accused of being a troll. Was it because he dared to question the sanctity of Tivo? Did he upset you fundamentalist Tivo fan boys?
> 
> I've had the same DirecTv Tivo unit for over 10 years and it works perfectly and the only trouble I've ever had is having to reboot maybe three times. But Tivo is by no means perfect and like everything in life, there are some trade offs ... esp. as time passes and other units and services improve and innovate while Tivo does little.
> 
> ...


His (the OP) pricing concerns are legitimate but it does get dicey when the OP labels the post about TiVo staying in business, as if anybody on this form or the the world itself would have that answer, TiVo may make it big on their patents or taking on partners etc. nobody knows for sure, as we can only guess. If the worlds consensus was that TiVo was going out of business soon the stock would not be at $8 something, if was a sure thing that TiVo will win all the patents court cases in the next year the stock again would not be at $8 something.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

If Tom Rogers, the CEO of TiVo Inc, can't pull a rabbit out his hat at next week's CES then someone should pull thumb out of his --- and show him the door before his incompetence kills the company and we are all left with a door stop on our hands.

Their product no longer works as pushed as the their leadership is more a firm of lawyers than a product company.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TooMuchTime said:


> However, the limitation with Uverse that I could not live with was the inability to save recorded content to a PC. Which is strange because Uverse *is* your home network! I was able to view photos and listen to music from a shared PC but not copy back to it. TiVo allows for this and I use the recordings as part of my video library. I only save movies for which I don't have a DVD, and when I get the DVD, I delete the file.
> 
> I know that Uverse partnered with Microsoft for their DVR, so I'm pretty sure that it's Microsoft's facistic view of digital rights management. What else is new.


It is not really a Microsoft thing, rather the studios do not want copies. The providers go a long with that and do not have digital copying (outside their environment) on their boxes.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The problem TiVo has is that it's hardcore techie users are a relatively tiny market, and most of them have either already switched to DirecTV or Dish, or are going to switch to Windows MCE with the Ceton card.

The rest of the market gets a box from their cable co, and doesn't really care what it is. Heck, even techie me has a Comcast DVR. It's good enough.

If TiVo wants a future, they have to stop suing other companies right and left, as it just makes them look like morons, and partner with cable and satellite companies (AHEM Mpeg-4 DirecTiVo) in order to roll out their software to those companies customers.

They missed their shot at really innovating with MRV by creating a server/client sort of system, that sort of thing is being rolled out by cable companies now, and DirecTV already has it, so they missed the boat on being the innovator there.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term.


TiVo's business is their DVR IP, in licensing their IP to providers and box manufacturers, their own box and partner manufacturers (with the Service), and of course, suing those who they believe violate their patent rights.


> Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.
> *The Tivo Box*
> $100 - $300 for a New Tivo Box
> 19.99/ mo for Tivo Service
> ...


TiVo does not make money from Cablecard installation or ongoing fees.
I say that, because your question is how they make money.

For Standalones, TiVo makes their money primarily on the "Service", which to a large degree is a license to use most of the features of the software included on the box,. Included are basic features such as a program guide and recording at all. The current $19.95 scheme also pays part of the cost of the hardware. There may also be revenue from some online content and services that appear on the TiVo.

In short, TiVo makes money (from Standalones) by requiring a subscription to do much of anything, and the features they offer are often better than, or not offered by provider DVRs.

True, no Cable VOD on a regular Standalone TiVo, but the possibility is there, and there are the online VOD offerings.

You saying the TiVo not being compatible with satellite qasi-implies a cable DVR is. While the Series 3/4 are not (nor could they negotiate technical compatiblity), the Series 2 are (with the satellite box, in SD), and providers can work with TiVo for a box compatible with their service.

You can take a TiVo with you to other providers, or use it with OTA.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Bigg said:


> switch to Windows MCE with the Ceton card.


Robert Heron from HD Nation is trying an HTPC with the Ceton card in place of his Tivo. He complained about not being able to watch live TV on cable when his Tivo was recording 2 shows at the same time. This might be a compelling alternative for those with cable, especially if the price drops on the 4 tuner card.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

HerbalEd said:


> Wow, I can't believe how rude so many of you are. Poor Joe states some concerns and criticism of Tivo and asks for your opinions, and he's insulted and accused of being a troll. Was it because he dared to question the sanctity of Tivo? Did he upset you fundamentalist Tivo fan boys?
> 
> I've had the same DirecTv Tivo unit for over 10 years and it works perfectly and the only trouble I've ever had is having to reboot maybe three times. But Tivo is by no means perfect and like everything in life, there are some trade offs ... esp. as time passes and other units and services improve and innovate while Tivo does little.
> 
> ...


He wasn't a 'poor joe' looking for help. He admits he thought he could get a functional DVR for cheap without having to pay the service fee. When they cut him off, he got mad and made a post here about how bad a company they are.

I'd say he got off easy...


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

My cable system is Verizon FIOS. I looked at the specs for the DVR and I wasn't impressed. The main drawback: It records only one show at a time. Storage is limited, too. 

But I also did the math. Verizon wants a monthly fee with no upfront cost. Tivo now offers a similar plan. But comparing Tivo with the upfront cost plus the lifetime subscription, Tivo was cheaper than Verizon's monthly fee in less than years. The longer you have your box, the more price advantage Tivo has. 

And, I can't emphasize this enough, you do get a better box. Even if Tivo turned out to be somewhat more, I'd pay it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Joe3 said:


> Their product no longer works as pushed as the their leadership is more a firm of lawyers than a product company.


Don't know where you got this from but the product works fine as pushed, even though I wouldn't recommend using the HD UI on the Premiere.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> The problem TiVo has is that it's hardcore techie users are a relatively tiny market, and most of them have either already switched to DirecTV or Dish, or are going to switch to Windows MCE with the Ceton card.
> 
> The rest of the market gets a box from their cable co, and doesn't really care what it is. Heck, even techie me has a Comcast DVR. It's good enough.
> 
> ...


The Comcast DVR may be good enough for you, but that's setting a very low bar. It failed miserably at my house.

They wouldn't have a problem with MRV if they would get off their ass and implement streaming. I think they have a backroom deal with content providers preventing this, however, even though the competition is doing it. Or they have incompetent programmers, can't figure out which.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> The Comcast DVR may be good enough for you, but that's setting a very low bar. It failed miserably at my house.


Same here. When DirecTV ditched Tivo we tried their replacement. The wife refused. So we switched to FIOS and likewise tried their DVR. Again, the wife refused. I've got better battles to fight in my life than making the wife use something she dislikes. Tivo's nearly the best money spent each month.



> They wouldn't have a problem with MRV if they would get off their ass and implement streaming. I think they have a backroom deal with content providers preventing this, however, even though the competition is doing it. Or they have incompetent programmers, can't figure out which.


It's a tough call. The current streaming player (netflix) sucks horribly. Compared to the built-in player or even streaming on other platforms. So I'm not sure how eager I'd be to have MRV-streaming unless it was as responsive as the built-in player. It wouldn't have to be exactly as responsive, but it'd have to be a whole helluva lot better than the netflix client.

Personally I'd rather have programming effort put toward shared season passes and conflict management. Or at least remote device to device setup and management. It sucks I can't delete programs from another device's NPL. It likewise sucks I can't setup a season pass on another device. I would very much like to be able to push a season pass or even single recording requests from one Tivo to another.

But it does sure seem like there's not much development going on at Tivo any more.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

Joe2525 said:


> "You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:
> 
> You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.
> The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
> ...


I already owned a TivoHD with Lifetime service when the Premiere came out. Tivo not only offered me discounted lifetime on a Tivo Premiere, but the also let me keep the lifetime on the TivoHD. So now I have 2 active Tivos, no monthly Tivo fees, and I am loving it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Joe2525 said:


> 1.	Many of you are right, I should have done my due diligence and understood all fees involved.


That should go without saying. If one fails to take the trouble to know and understand all the implications of a purchase, then one has only one's self to blame when the purchase fails to meet expectations.



Joe2525 said:


> I suppose you could equate this to buying a Hybrid and not expect to pay for gas. Although I'd expect the independently generated electricity to be free, which it is.


*NOTHING* is free, certainly in particular not the electrical energy in a hybrid vehicle. The energy is not "independently generated". The energy is generated by the gasoline engine which runs the vehicle. The hybrid's advantage is that, unlike a conventional gasoline powered vehicle, it does not waste nearly as much of the energy produced by the engine. Whenever the hybrid does not require additional energy input from the gas engine, it shuts the engine off. Ordinarily all the energy generated by the engine when it is not delivering power to the drive train is simply wasted as heat going out the tail pipe. When braking, the hybrid bleeds most of the kinetic energy of the vehicle back into its battery, thus allowing effectively the same energy to accelerate the vehicle to speed over and over again. The conventional vehicle merely converts all the vehicle's kinetic energy into heat in the brakes, where none of it can be recovered. Finally, any engine has a relatively narrow range at the top of its power curve where it is most efficient. At speeds above or below this region, the engine is less efficient - often very much so. A conventional vehicle requires the engine to be run at a wide range of speeds, resulting in greater inefficiency. A variable ratio gearbox (transmission) somewhat mitigates the inefficiency, but not as much as one might like. Since the engine in a hybrid does not engage the drive train directly, it is always run right at the very peak of its power curve, resulting in the best possible efficiency. Now back on topic...



Joe2525 said:


> The way TiVo has been marketed over the past month, cost $100 + 19.99/ mo (1 year contract) implied to me that they were trying to upsell their "Cadillac" service.


The nature of the service is clearly spelled out in the agreement. The marketing strategy is to sell the box at a considerable loss, but subsidize that loss in service fees. TiVo must recover the manufacturing and distribution costs somehow, or else ultimately they will indeed go bankrupt. Heavily discounting the equipment price well below cost and then marking up the monthly service fee is a marketing strategy used by all Cellular companies except those that offer exclusively prepaid service.



Joe2525 said:


> I figured the box would at least do the basic functions (channel info, record, playback) and you'd pay extra only for additional features (on demand movie library, music streaming, internet browsing). I'm ok with TiVo charging for extra services that actually use their servers and require their resources to maintain.


You should be OK with them selling you a box and having you pay for it over time, too. Most people like that. If you don't then get lifetime service, and you pay for the box with all its features, plus unlimited access to their TV guide database, gratis. The fact (with the lifetime service) the service is supplied without additional monthly fees does not mean it is free, either. TiVo just loads the cost of the service over the estimated life of the box into the lifetime service fee.



Joe2525 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the ability to record, rewind, channel info, playback were all features requiring stand alone resources (TiVo Box + Network provider; in my case, Verizon).


'Irrelevant. The box costs more to make and deliver than most people are willing to pay up front. TiVo's only choices are to discount the up-front cost to the consumer and inflate the monthly fees or else increase the up-front cost of the box and discount the monthly fees.



Joe2525 said:


> To me this would be like your cell carrier charging for wireless services and the ability to snap pictures with the camera phone.


That would be one approach. Note in terms of the core functionality, however, the iPhone (and other cell phones) are no different than the TiVo. They sell you a heavily discounted (sometimes even 100%) device and then lock you into a contract whose monthly premium is marked up enough to far more than cover their losses on delivering the hardware. The only differnce is TiVo does offer lifetime service. No cell phone company of which I am aware will sell you a phone with lifetime service.



Joe2525 said:


> 2.	Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a troll and you are hearing back from me.


There are two types of trolls: those who engage in a brief bombing raid, and those who drag out the attack, continually baiting the conference in order to get a rise out of them. Your continued participation in this thread (a couple of posts don't really count much) will provide evidence you are not on a bombing raid. Additional and persistent contributions in the rest of the forum will demonstrate you are not a troll, at all. Until then, the jury is still out. Protesting you are not a troll does not present anything in the way of evidence. All persistent trolls protest their innocence.

All that said, I do apologize if we have misjudged you. Long, weary experience has rather jaded us to the angst often offered - frequently deceptively - here. A watermark of such prevarication can be found in weak or obviously falacious arguments provided by the author. Your post seemed to fit the profile very well. Time will tell, but again if we have misjudged you, then I am sorry.



Joe2525 said:


> 3.	Personally, the AT&T debate is much like the arguments on this forum. I agree and it doesn't help that the CEO makes statements about their long term customer retention plan being wireless contracts/ETF's but for some people it just works better.


I wasn't speaking of wireless. The wireless service which SBC purchased, now named AT&T Wireless does indeed perform well and has excellent coverage. Again, however, it was not that service of which I spoke. As both a former customer and a long time competitor to AT&T's land line services, I can tell you based upon vast experience the quality of their physical service and their customer service is pathetic, yet they usually charge more than most of their competitors.



Joe2525 said:


> 5.	The yawn remark to the lack of Cable Co. provided On Demand service is a bit arrogant.


Whether true or not, it has nothing to do with the validity of the original remark. When I worked for the local CATV company (who eventually became Time Warner after I left), I had access to VOD at zero cost to myself. I never used it, because it was mostly a total snooze. The fact the interface was horrible didn't help. Once I left the company, VOD was no longer offered as part of my compensation package, but it was still available, right up until I got rid of the last leased STB in 2007. It wasn't even on the very bottom of my list of considerations in giving up the STB.



Joe2525 said:


> I could make the same statement for the abundance of unnecessary features TiVo users pay for monthly.


And I would not argue that many of the features of the TiVo are not soporific. Others are terrific in the extreme. The only real quibble I have with the general statement is the users are not for the most part paying for those features. The biggest chunk of the monthly fee goes to pay for the cost of the box not covered by the customer's original purchase.



Joe2525 said:


> Some people actually love their Cable Co. provided On Demand service.


Many people loved their 19" CRT color TVs, but when something better is available, the love affair naturally fades.



Joe2525 said:


> Yes, you could make the argument that you simply need to record it and it'll be just like On Demand but for some people it just works better for them.


This suggests a mindset typical among many people who are used to leased DVRs and STBs. In fact, it is a hold-over from the days of VCRs. The leased DVR is little more than a VCR on steroids. The TiVo is a completely different animal, the fact it can (when handled poorly) do the same things as the leased DVR notwithstanding.



Joe2525 said:


> I found a very helpful idea on this forum suggesting that you could simply split the cable feed into the basic digital Cable Co. provided box and the TiVo providing both the missing On Demand and Tivo features.


No offense, but that's pretty obvious. What is not so obvious, perhaps, is if you truly learn to make use of the TiVo' capabilities, you will find yourself never using the STB. In order to effectively make use of the terrific features of the TiVo, however, the user needs to stop thinking of TiVo as a DVR, which is to say closely related to the leased DVR.

I'll give you an analogy. The leased DVR is a stripped down Buick. It will get you from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time, reasonably safely, and in reasonable comfort, using the U.S. highway system. The TiVo is a Lear Jet. It will also get you from point A to point B, yada, yada, yada. One could even make use of the Lear Jet to get from point A to point B by taxiing the entire way on the highway. After all, that's how the Buick does it, right, and the whole point of both machines is to go from point A to point B, right? Well, it could be done, and it accomplishes the main goal, but it is a phenomenal waste of the Jet's capabilities. Capabilities, I might add, for which the owner has paid a great deal of money. Making use of those capabilities requires thinking of the machine in a very different way than one thinks of the Buick, and also approaching the task of moving from A to B ina very different way, the fact the steering wheel on the Buick is similar to the control yoke on the Lear Jet notwithstanding.



Joe2525 said:


> 6.	I didn't suggest the CATV company's box is compatible with Satellite.


Then how is it superior in this respect to the TiVo? Your comparison stated explicitly the TiVo was inferior because it did not have the capability. You should not have mentioned it at all in a comparison between the two, as neither has the capability.



Joe2525 said:


> As a 3rd party operator I think negotiations to make TiVo compatible should be in the works. Since DirectTV offers a DVR box it appears doable.


Yeah, OK. I suggest you look here and here. There are two whole conferences on this website dedicated to *existing* Direct TV TiVo units. The new DirecTiVo should be out next year.



Joe2525 said:


> Go back under the bridge? Really? Although I'm overly impressed with your 3,600 + posts, we can all go without your egotistical attitude. Last time I checked you weren't a moderator.


If you are a troll, then you should go away, and ideally it should not require the intervention of a moderator. If you are not a troll, then the only thing misplaced was the perception itself, not the nature of the post.



Joe2525 said:


> 7.	The ability to save recordings to an external device is nice. In fact part of the reason TiVo seemed appealing.


It's more than just nice. More than 70% of what I watch on the TiVos comes off my video server. Almost 100% of what is on the server came from one or the other of my TiVos.



Joe2525 said:


> In my situation, I have a HD Dual Channel DVR. Space might be limited but I don't let 10's of hours of recording build up.


Again, that is a non-TiVo viewpoint. First of all, the best thing about the TiVo is that in large measure "you" don't have to do anything, including managing space. There is absolutely no reason not to allow the TiVo to fill itself to the brim and keep itself filled to the brim. I turn on the TV, watch programs off the TiVo, and delete them when I am done. (The last step is not essential, but it does make for more efficiency, and since it doesn't require any significant effort, I usually do delete programs I no longer want.) That's it. It's 100% of my management effort. Indeed, it represents the vast majority of my interaction with the TiVo.



Joe2525 said:


> I pay nothing for the box


Don't be foolish! You pay as much for that box (and more) as you pay for the TiVo. They embed its cost in your monthly fee. The really sleazy thing is that Verizon is going to continue to charge you for that box even if you don't have it.



Joe2525 said:


> Being able to transfer recorded material to an external device is nice but not worth a new monthly payment. The ability to purchase a lifetime subscription sounds like it could save over the long term but you'll continually be paying to upgrade your box and for technical service.


What technical service? TiVo does not charge for customer service by phone. For the rest, this is always the comparison between renting / leasing and purchasing. For these very reasons, some people prefer to buy a house and others prefer to rent. Some people prefer to buy a car and others to lease.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

HerbalEd said:


> Wow, I can't believe how rude so many of you are.


Then you should visit some flame conferences some time, where flaming is encouraged. Heck, even the "other" TiVo forum is far more pointed than this forum, and they don't encourage rudeness, either. This conference isn't even mildly rude.



HerbalEd said:


> Poor Joe states some concerns and criticism of Tivo and asks for your opinions, and he's insulted and accused of being a troll. Was it because he dared to question the sanctity of Tivo?


No, it was because his very first post on this web site was a whiny, straw man criticism of systems and circumstances he either did not bother to take the time to research or else of which he was deliberately concealing knowledge. The former would make him someone who should have done some research before shooting off his mouth, while the latter would make him a troll.



HerbalEd said:


> Did he upset you fundamentalist Tivo fan boys?


I am neither a fundamentalist nor a fanboy (of anything). I am merely weary - not to mention disgusted - of trolls and equally annoyed by people who pop off with deliberately ignorant opinions. There is nothing inherently evil about simple ignorance, but willful ignorance is a passively hostile attitude, and not one I choose to suffer gladly. The fact one has a right to an opinion, no matter how stupid, and the fact one has a right to express any opinion, again no matter how stupid, does not mean it is a good idea to form or express opinions without bothering to obtain the fundamental facts concerning the opinion. OTOH, if the person is a troll, then they should be horse-whipped.

We may well have mis-judged the OP's real intent, and if so, then that aspect of our responses was unintentionally improper. In the event, however, the post was still filled with poorly considered and completely un-researched nonsense, and was treated with the lack of respect appropriate to the lack of proper dilligence on the part of the OP.



HerbalEd said:


> But Tivo is by no means perfect and like everything in life, there are some trade offs ... esp.


Well, duh. Had the OP criticized TiVo for some of its very many shortcomings, I would not have taken issue. Instead, he set up a series of straw men and proceeded to rant about shortcomings that don't exist. That deserves rebuttal.



HerbalEd said:


> as time passes and other units and services improve and innovate while Tivo does little.


I've seen broad statement like this again and again. Almost no one has been able to come up with any support for the former, and the latter is simply completely untrue. As I mentioned in another post, it's like watching a child grow. One sim0ply does not see the changes from day to day. Today's TiVo has a vast amount of features, some great and some silly, not available on the 1999 TiVo, the 2003 TiVo, the 2006 Tivo, or even the 2009 TiVo.



HerbalEd said:


> After two years of empty promises of a new HD DirecTv-capable Tivo I am on the verge of jumping ship myself. I'm tired of waiting and meanwhile DirecTv has improved their HD DVR to the point where I think I can live without my wonderful Tivo.


Well, first of all, the discussion is really around the SA TiVo not the DirecTiVo. Secondly, however, every other DVR I have examined has at least 4 out of 7 major deal breakers, the lack of even one of them absolutely preventing me from switching. When someone comes up with a DVR that has all of the deal breakers, I'll consider switching. (Note: the TiVo Premier has 2 deal breakers against it. I'll not be purchasing one.)


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> For Standalones, TiVo makes their money primarily on the "Service", which to a large degree is a license to use most of the features of the software included on the box,. Included are basic features such as a program guide and recording at all. The current $19.95 scheme also pays part of the cost of the hardware.


Actually, all the service rate plans, including MSD and lifetime, pay for the cost of the hardware. TiVo makes less money on selling the box in all cases than it costs them to make the box.



classicsat said:


> You can take a TiVo with you to other providers, or use it with OTA.


'Or sell it. As with any purchase of a durable good, once one is done with the product one may recover some portion of the original investment by selling it. This, whether it is a house, a car, or a DVR. It is part and parcel of every decision whether to rent / lease or to buy.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

WhiskeyTango said:


> I, and many others here, don't have to worry about missing shows and turning to On Demand, we just record whatever seems somewhat interesting with the chance that we might like it.


One critical point, here. For the most part, "we" don't record it, or at least I don't. I let the TiVo do the work. That is to say not only the physical recording itself, but also the vast majority of choosing what to record. I just watch TV, and let the TiVo worry about all the boring details like what to record, on what channel, and when.



WhiskeyTango said:


> Same goes for movies on premium channels like HBO and Showtime. BTW, Tivo does offer VOD through Amazon and Blockbuster.


And NetFlix.



WhiskeyTango said:


> There is much that can be done with this including moving to PC, archiving to DVD, and watching on portable devices.


Not to mention editing - like getting rid of commercials or splicing together two-part episodes into one.



WhiskeyTango said:


> If you only watch 10's of hours of TV, you may not be the right person to get a Tivo. Others of us watch 100's of hours of TV.


Well, it may not in many cases be so much about how much TV one watches. I don't get a lot of time to watch TV, really. It's more about what is available to watch, and more importantly not having to deal with the mountains of junk one does not want to watch. To be sure, the TiVo provides time-shifting and various networking capabilities, but its most important capability is to act as a filter so the viewing experience becomes one of selecting a program from a pallette of high quality, 100% enjoyable programing, rather than slogging endlessly through mountains of garbage to find programs one wants to watch.



WhiskeyTango said:


> Across 3 Tivos I have over 300 hours of programming. Across 3 Tivos I have over 300 hours of programming.


Well, just considering my 3 TiVos, its something more like 700 hours, but most of the content is on the server - something like 4000 hours or so, I guess. It's not the hours, though. It's the fact that almost every program is one of my favorites, or at the very least well worth the time to look at it.



WhiskeyTango said:


> Great that your Blu Ray has some of the same features as Tivo. I have an alarm clock and camera, why do I need a phone that does that? It's about consolidation and convenience.


Although I myself would have found it hard to accept some years ago, experience has taught me it is hard to over-estimate the value of having a single, consolidated, integrated system along with an integrated UI, at least when it comes to watching TV. I quit watching DVDs because it was too much of a hassle.



WhiskeyTango said:


> Lifetime subs are a great option and you do save over the longer term. As for technical service, I've had ZERO need for it in 6 years with 3 Tivos. The fact that your Verizon DVR does need it says enough. Not saying Tivos don't break, but there are plenty of examples of people still using old units as far back as the S1's.


I have a 1999 vintage Series I Philips sitting in the front seat of my car right now. I used it for recording some stuff at my sister's house off her 1999 vintage Sony SAT-60 DirecTiVo, which she uses daily. I haven't taken the opportunity to unload it, yet.


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## coneinc (Dec 31, 2010)

Joe2525 said:


> I'm struggling to understand how Tivo can possibly stay in business over the long term. Being new to the Tivo world there was a lot I didn't understand until just recently. Let me just get straight to the issue.
> *The Tivo Box*
> $100 - $300 for a New Tivo Box
> 19.99/ mo for Tivo Service
> ...


i have fios allso but there boxes stink. they only ofered me the 160 gb hardrive. and recording hd dosent take long before a 160 gb hd is full with my tivo i get 1tb. plus the program guide and interface in my opinion better then verizon


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## samato (Mar 10, 2005)

My former cable box sucked. It was a Motorola and although it maybe has some cool features Midcontinent didn't license any of the features on it. No online scheduling; No Pandora; the i-Guide they subscribe to is constantly wrong and it records repeats when I have clearly told it not to; it has a network connection but it's disabled; small hard drive(holds 12 hours of HD); Midcontinent clearly has passive customers who think the box is great but for those who have owned TiVo - they don't compare.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

These kind of posts have been around for years. Somehow Tivo has managed to stay in business. They have more competition that ever before. I can't see them staying in business much longer especially after the half baked Premiere they released.

Keep in mind that in almost 12 years this company has only had ONE profitable quarter.


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## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

Recently I received a little Asus O'Play Air as a gift, a buggy little media player that is fun to play with and it reminds me a lot of the series 1 tivo in the way hackers change the firmware to allow more features. Admittedly, I see things a little differently. I believe the thing that made Tivo great in the early days was the hackers. Please note, I am not talking about stealing services, just little changes that made things more fun. Any DVR can record your shows, but Tivo was special, it was a product that allowed the customer to interact in ways that no other recorder did at the time. I don't think Tivo can compete head on with the bigger giants, they need the hackers to give them the edge.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> The Comcast DVR may be good enough for you, but that's setting a very low bar. It failed miserably at my house.
> 
> They wouldn't have a problem with MRV if they would get off their ass and implement streaming. I think they have a backroom deal with content providers preventing this, however, even though the competition is doing it. Or they have incompetent programmers, can't figure out which.


Streaming is a tech support nightmare. In a typical house with multiple PCs, streaming is difficult to support. You're streaming a show just fine. Then your kids get home from school, hop on some online games, one kicks off some massive download. Your stream starts to pause and buffer, and TiVo gets a support call. With copying files between TiVo, there are only two answers to give: wait for it to finish or cancel and start again.

I set up a media center PC at home before I bought the TiVo. My coworker did the same thing. I bought a big HD and copied stuff local. They bought NASes and chose to stream from the NAS. I never had my wife or kids call me at work with a problem. The NAS people did all the time.

Streaming SD content is easy. Streaming HD is not.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

plazman30 said:


> Streaming is a tech support nightmare. In a typical house with multiple PCs, streaming is difficult to support. You're streaming a show just fine. Then your kids get home from school, hop on some online games, one kicks off some massive download. Your stream starts to pause and buffer, and TiVo gets a support call. With copying files between TiVo, there are only two answers to give: wait for it to finish or cancel and start again.
> 
> I set up a media center PC at home before I bought the TiVo. My coworker did the same thing. I bought a big HD and copied stuff local. They bought NASes and chose to stream from the NAS. I never had my wife or kids call me at work with a problem. The NAS people did all the time.
> 
> Streaming SD content is easy. Streaming HD is not.


And how do you skip commercials when streaming ???


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

How can <insert name of moderate-to-expensive restaurant> survive with competiton from <insert name of inexpensive fast-food franchise>?

Some people want something better, and are willing to pay for it. Count me in!

Others just want a VCR with a giant built-in tape that you cannot remove.

Currently, the market can support both, just as we have the different restaurant offerings.

Let the market decide...

Goony


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lessd said:


> And how do you skip commercials when streaming ???


C'mon this isn't rocket science - streaming is just like copying, you wait until enough has buffered up to skip. There's just no local copy, but it can keep track of where you left off and resume streaming from there if you exit and come back to it. Or have another option to play from beginning (something Tivo should have for ALL shows). The most important reason to do streaming is to bail out those people screwed over by excessive CP.

Also, streaming HD around your house has nothing to do with downloading or streaming from the net. You either have the wired/wireless cap to do it on your LAN or you don't, but if wired (the best way) two Tivos streaming should have nothing to do with your kid downloading some show to/from his PC.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> C'mon this isn't rocket science - streaming is just like copying, you wait until enough has buffered up to skip. There's just no local copy, but it can keep track of where you left off and resume streaming from there if you exit and come back to it. Or have another option to play from beginning (something Tivo should have for ALL shows). The most important reason to do streaming is to bail out those people screwed over by excessive CP.
> .


OK I am willing to learn, how much can you buffer, the total show, or say 10 minutes, when is streaming just coping? when does the receiver know when your done so it can erase the show. (Using the Series 2 for watching in MRV I did have to wait about 10-15 minutes to get enough information moved so i could do the commercial skip). I was under the impression that nothing much was on the receiver side when true streaming was being used, on Netflex if I want to go back to see something again its a pain as the system must re-sync, same with jumping forward. If I try to skip ahead say 4 minutes with Netflex, its a pain that i would never go through to skip commercials on a normal TiVo recorded program.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

with any luck the OP learned some things ftom his thread. Clearly he had some large gaps in his knowledge of TiVo when he started the thread


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Robert Heron from HD Nation is trying an HTPC with the Ceton card in place of his Tivo. He complained about not being able to watch live TV on cable when his Tivo was recording 2 shows at the same time. This might be a compelling alternative for those with cable, especially if the price drops on the 4 tuner card.


Yeah, those things are amazing. You can have four tuners of each type, so you could have a Ceton card, and four QAM tuners for the local channels as well for a total of 8. Sure, four tuners is great for one user, but the whole power of MCE is that you can shift the whole paradigm of the DVR and have one 8-tuner, 5TB MCE PC that is open and software customizable, and then stream to extenders for all the other TVs, all in HD. That's way beyond what any TiVo can do, and that's where all the techies are headed.



slowbiscuit said:


> The Comcast DVR may be good enough for you, but that's setting a very low bar. It failed miserably at my house.
> 
> They wouldn't have a problem with MRV if they would get off their ass and implement streaming. I think they have a backroom deal with content providers preventing this, however, even though the competition is doing it. Or they have incompetent programmers, can't figure out which.


I think they're just slow to implement. The space and lack of MRV could be a deal-breaker for some households, but there's nothing wrong with the interface or software.



wkearney99 said:


> Same here. When DirecTV ditched Tivo we tried their replacement. The wife refused. So we switched to FIOS and likewise tried their DVR. Again, the wife refused. I've got better battles to fight in my life than making the wife use something she dislikes. Tivo's nearly the best money spent each month.
> 
> But it does sure seem like there's not much development going on at Tivo any more.


The DirecTV DVRs are just as good as TiVo, even if they're not as fast. That being said, since you have Fios available, you'd be crazy to be watching re-compressed MPEG-4 when you could watch the original MPEG-2 stream at full bitrate on Fios.

No, there's not much development going on at TiVo anymore.



plazman30 said:


> Streaming is a tech support nightmare. In a typical house with multiple PCs, streaming is difficult to support. You're streaming a show just fine. Then your kids get home from school, hop on some online games, one kicks off some massive download. Your stream starts to pause and buffer, and TiVo gets a support call. With copying files between TiVo, there are only two answers to give: wait for it to finish or cancel and start again.


DirecTV has been streaming HD over DECA, and the cable companies who have implemented streaming are using MoCA, which is the same thing. those have their own pool of bandwidth separate from the computers in the house, and look the same as a local DVR using experience. This isn't rocket science. If TiVo wanted to do streaming, it would be easy to use MoCA to do it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Sure, four tuners is great for one user, but the whole power of MCE is that you can shift the whole paradigm of the DVR and have one 8-tuner, 5TB MCE PC that is open and software customizable, and then stream to extenders for all the other TVs, all in HD. That's way beyond what any TiVo can do, and that's where all the techies are headed.


not this techie  I have tuners all over my house and each has its own now playing list appropriate for that spot but can also get shows from other DVRs. some shows I deem important (read my Wife really likes ) I record on 2 separate TiVo DVRs so no single point of failure.
I also like the simplicity of the TiVo DVR and rarely have to provide any guidance on using them or try and repair some software issue before a big recording (again read - shows my Wife likes)

so while I can see the idea of one monolithic DVR appeals to some I for one avoid it simply to eliminate failure points.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> not this techie  I have tuners all over my house and each has its own now playing list appropriate for that spot but can also get shows from other DVRs. some shows I deem important (read my Wife really likes ) I record on 2 separate TiVo DVRs so no single point of failure.
> I also like the simplicity of the TiVo DVR and rarely have to provide any guidance on using them or try and repair some software issue before a big recording (again read - shows my Wife likes)
> 
> so while I can see the idea of one monolithic DVR appeals to some I for one avoid it simply to eliminate failure points.


You can use RAID or network based storage with RAID, and since they are just files on a computer, they would be easy to back up on a NAS. You end up with a single list of shows, and if you built a big enough MCE machine, you could virtually end up with your own ON Demand service.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> You can use RAID or network based storage with RAID, and since they are just files on a computer, they would be easy to back up on a NAS. You end up with a single list of shows, and if you built a big enough MCE machine, you could virtually end up with your own ON Demand service.


like I said fine for folks who use that and to me the whole point of HTPC would indeed be the enterprise level power you can put into it, for a cost. 
To me the single point of failure would be the tuner doing the recording assuming you secure the files on the hard drive through means such as you pointed out.
anyhow you have now rolled into the second reason I stay with TiVo - the cost of of an HTPC solution that would meet my needs versus my already in place TiVo solution that does hook into my PC for storing/retrieving shows and ripped DVDs as needed anyhow.

PS - my first post noted that the TiVo now playing list at each location is smaller and more appropriate to that location. EG kids shows in bonus room, main shows in living room, fall asleep to shows in bedroom. The last thing I myself want is a long list of shows. If I went monolithic HTPC I would have to figure out how to use some kind of grouping to present shows


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...
> anyhow you have now rolled into the second reason I stay with TiVo - the cost of of an HTPC solution that would meet my needs versus my already in place TiVo solution that does hook into my PC for storing/retrieving shows and ripped DVDs as needed anyhow.
> 
> PS - my first post noted that the TiVo now playing list at each location is smaller and more appropriate to that location. EG kids shows in bonus room, main shows in living room, fall asleep to shows in bedroom. The last thing I myself want is a long list of shows. If I went monolithic HTPC I would have to figure out how to use some kind of grouping to present shows


Yes, switching cost is a big barrier to current TiVo users. However, look a couple years down the road when the TiVos are getting older and one bites the dust, and the MCE system looks more attractive.

I guess I don't really have that problem, since I only watch shows that I actually want to sit there and watch on the HDTV, everything else I stream/ torrent/ podcast, since computers are so much more prevalent and available than TV's and DVRs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Yes, switching cost is a big barrier to current TiVo users. However, look a couple years down the road when the TiVos are getting older and one bites the dust, and the MCE system looks more attractive.
> 
> I guess I don't really have that problem, since I only watch shows that I actually want to sit there and watch on the HDTV, everything else I stream/ torrent/ podcast, since computers are so much more prevalent and available than TV's and DVRs.


I have TiVo DVRs going on 4 years old and still working just fine. I have replaced 1 power supply and 2 hard drives - total maintenance cost of 200$ over those 5 years for 5 or so TiVo DVRs I have owned. I could not even buy the Ceton 4 tuner card for a PC for that.

Any show I put on my PC in a DRMless state (ripped DVD, torrent, etc.) I can watch at any TV in my house via copying to a TiVo DVR. My youngest kid can use the remote and menu no problem.

So really it is only locked down sites like Hulu and network sites like abc.com and like VOD - I already have most of what I want from that content recorded or available via Netflix.

so while an HTPC is a fine path to go for those that want some more horsepower - my TiVo DVR setup and a regular PC to rip DVDs to also works just fine.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Yes, switching cost is a big barrier to current TiVo users. However, look a couple years down the road when the TiVos are getting older and one bites the dust, and the MCE system looks more attractive.


One usually bites the dust with either a hard drive or power supply fail, both of which are cheap fixes. Same thing you'd run into with an HTPC, in other words.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have TiVo DVRs going on 4 years old and still working just fine. I have replaced 1 power supply and 2 hard drives - total maintenance cost of 200$ over those 5 years for 5 or so TiVo DVRs I have owned. I could not even buy the Ceton 4 tuner card for a PC for that.
> 
> Any show I put on my PC in a DRMless state (ripped DVD, torrent, etc.) I can watch at any TV in my house via copying to a TiVo DVR. My youngest kid can use the remote and menu no problem.
> 
> ...


+1. As long as you don't use cable cards. If you use cable cards, the rips upload fine, you just can't move shows around or put them on mobile equipment.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> +1. As long as you don't use cable cards. If you use cable cards, the rips upload fine, you just can't move shows around or put them on mobile equipment.


yep, the CCI flag to prevent copying of shows recorded by the TiVo sucks when the cable company turns that against the consumer


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVos are good DVR's, but they are individual DVR's, and don't have the same capabilities that a WinMCE box has. On the main setup that has the MCE box, you're running Windows, so if you want to watch Hulu or anything else that's web based, you can just break out of MCE and fire up Firefox and you're good to go.

I'm not saying that everyone should run out and build a Ceton powered beast, but looking forward, more and more of the techies that are currently TiVo users are going to be moving that direction, and that's bad news for TiVo.

You may be able to get software to stream a file from an MCE box to a TiVo, and you can already watch TiVo content on a PC, so you'd effectively have MRV between the MCE machine and the TiVo Premiere/ S3's.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> +1. As long as you don't use cable cards. If you use cable cards, the rips upload fine, you just can't move shows around or put them on mobile equipment.


It's not the CableCards. This is due to setting the CCI byte. It's true all CableLabs approved systems must honor the CCI byte, but that's not quite the same thing. For many people, it isn't currently an issue because their CATV provider does not implement the CCI byte, or perhaps not aggressively. They can transfer all they like.

Stormspace, you have a bad habit of acting as if a problem you are experiencing must be universal, and it is just not true. Most CATV subscribers are not impacted severely and many not at all, by this issue, at this time. It's true a significant fraction of subs, like you and I are on systems like Time Warner Cable, who copy protect everyhting that is not OTA, but the majority of subscribers are not served by TWC.



ZeoTiVo said:


> yep, the CCI flag to prevent copying of shows recorded by the TiVo sucks when the cable company turns that against the consumer


It sucks for those whose CTV providers implement CCI byte assignments. As of yet, the majority of people are not served by such broadcasters. It's likely only a matter of time, however.

Even then, it still doesn's suck at all for those of us who desire and seek an alternate solution.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bigg said:


> TiVos are good DVR's, but they are individual DVR's, and don't have the same capabilities that a WinMCE box has. On the main setup that has the MCE box, you're running Windows, so if you want to watch Hulu or anything else that's web based, you can just break out of MCE and fire up Firefox and you're good to go.


Every device has some strengths and some weaknesses. A WinMCE box has huge, completely unacceptable limitations. The TiVo has a few that are of little or no convern to me, at all. Teh TiVo also has a small handful that are of greater concern to me, but they are not deal-breakers.



Bigg said:


> I'm not saying that everyone should run out and build a Ceton powered beast, but looking forward, more and more of the techies that are currently TiVo users are going to be moving that direction, and that's bad news for TiVo.


I doubt it. Many "techie" users, like me, wouldn't touch WinMCE with a ten foot pole no matter what it's feeble features might be. The rest don't make up a very large percentage of TiVo users. Even when someone comes out with a Linux driver port for the Ceton card, I would be hard pressed to make use of it, since the card really doesn't offer any important features. I don't need 12 tuners.



Bigg said:


> You may be able to get software to stream a file from an MCE box to a TiVo, and you can already watch TiVo content on a PC, so you'd effectively have MRV between the MCE machine and the TiVo Premiere/ S3's.


That's not MRV. One of the shortfalls of the TiVo (any CableLabs approved recording device, actually) is the data on the hard drive must be encrypted. Transferring from TiVo to TiVo (MRV) can be done without decrypting and re-encrypting the data. This is not possible betrween a non-TiVo machine and a Tivo. This makes TTCB and TTG transfers slow.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> I don't need 12 tuners.


If you're using Tivo with a cable card then you might want 3 tuners, since the Tivo doubles as your cable box. You can't watch another live TV channel while 2 programs are recording.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> If you're using Tivo with a cable card then you might want 3 tuners, since the Tivo doubles as your cable box. You can't watch another live TV channel while 2 programs are recording.


umm - there is no requirement that you have to ditch the cable box to use a TiVo. In fact having the cable box gives you VOD if you want it and most cable companies give you the first cable box for free anyway.
Also this watching a 3 rd channel live is strange to me. If you have conflicts in the 3 or more range, then get another TiVo DVR or go to something with more tuners. I rarely watch Live TV anymore


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> It's not the CableCards. This is due to setting the CCI byte. It's true all CableLabs approved systems must honor the CCI byte, but that's not quite the same thing. For many people, it isn't currently an issue because their CATV provider does not implement the CCI byte, or perhaps not aggressively. They can transfer all they like.


Without the cable cards the cable company cannot set the CCI Byte.



lrhorer said:


> Stormspace, you have a bad habit of acting as if a problem you are experiencing must be universal, and it is just not true. Most CATV subscribers are not impacted severely and many not at all, by this issue, at this time. It's true a significant fraction of subs, like you and I are on systems like Time Warner Cable, who copy protect everyhting that is not OTA, but the majority of subscribers are not served by TWC.


Not at all. If you follow the link in my sig you'll see I'm not the only person affected, nor is it a small minority that is. 


lrhorer said:


> It sucks for those whose CTV providers implement CCI byte assignments. As of yet, the majority of people are not served by such broadcasters. It's likely only a matter of time, however.


I agree that the few providers not employing the CCI byte will soon start doing so. Exceptions will likely include smaller operators that don't have the technical expertise to make it happen. 


lrhorer said:


> Even then, it still doesn's suck at all for those of us who desire and seek an alternate solution.


Currently no legal alternate solutions include the TiVo equipment we've already invested in.


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## MICHGO (Jan 5, 2011)

I'll Have To Say I Agree With Every Point.
I Bought Tivo Because It's Hard To Find Tv's With Cable Cards Now A Days And I Wanted To Get The Same Channels On By Bedroom Tv As My Living Room Without Using A Time/warner Box.
When A New Dvr From The Cable Company Is Availabe You Just Exchange.
I Can't Say I Regret My Purchase But Given What You Get There's _nothing_ About The Tivo That Is An Advantage.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I agree that the few providers not employing the CCI byte will soon start doing so. Exceptions will likely include smaller operators that don't have the technical expertise to make it happen.


This is pure speculation on your part, I have heard of no plans for Comcast to do so.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> This is pure speculation on your part, I have heard of no plans for Comcast to do so.


Comcast is already doing this on premium channels in many markets. Why they haven't done it on all channels like TWC is questionable, however I have a feeling it might be because they are eliminating analog channels altogether. One thing at a time, so to speak.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> Comcast is already doing this on premium channels in many markets. Why they haven't done it on all channels like TWC is questionable, however I have a feeling it might be because they are eliminating analog channels altogether. One thing at a time, so to speak.


In the Hartford CT area Comcast was setting the bit on all channels (except OTA), I talked with a top executive at Comcast and he agreed to look into the issue, within about a month the bit stopped being set on all stations except the HBO type of channels, all is good now. I really think that all cable co were told* NOT *to set the bit on OTA stations period, so they just set the bit on all the rest, it was easier than finding out what channels wanted/needed the bit set.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lessd said:


> In the Hartford CT area Comcast was setting the bit on all channels (except OTA), I talked with a top executive at Comcast and he agreed to look into the issue, within about a month the bit stopped being set on all stations except the HBO type of channels, all is good now. I really think that all cable co were told* NOT *to set the bit on OTA stations period, so they just set the bit on all the rest, it was easier than finding out what channels wanted/needed the bit set.


That's good news for you.  You might be right about the shotgun approach with the other providers.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lessd said:


> In the Hartford CT area Comcast was setting the bit on all channels (except OTA), I talked with a top executive at Comcast and he agreed to look into the issue, within about a month the bit stopped being set on all stations except the HBO type of channels, all is good now. I really think that all cable co were told* NOT *to set the bit on OTA stations period, so they just set the bit on all the rest, it was easier than finding out what channels wanted/needed the bit set.


correct, err on the side of caution is likely what the local people might be thinking since no one using their own cable boxes DVRs would notice anyway. Right now it really is only TiVo users that would notice since Windows Media Center and Moxi employ streaming and do not allow moving the show off the hardware it was recorded on. 
I like TiVoToGo functionality, I hope TiVo and others can get the FCC to see how this set all channels with flag practice is harmful to consumers using TiVo and thus to TiVo as well.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Every device has some strengths and some weaknesses. A WinMCE box has huge, completely unacceptable limitations. The TiVo has a few that are of little or no convern to me, at all. Teh TiVo also has a small handful that are of greater concern to me, but they are not deal-breakers.


What limitations?



lrhorer said:


> I doubt it. Many "techie" users, like me, wouldn't touch WinMCE with a ten foot pole no matter what it's feeble features might be. The rest don't make up a very large percentage of TiVo users. Even when someone comes out with a Linux driver port for the Ceton card, I would be hard pressed to make use of it, since the card really doesn't offer any important features. I don't need 12 tuners.


Why wouldn't techies want to use it? It is literally the ultimate DVR, pretty much all PC-based, full Win7, you can add monster hardware to it if you want. You'd want Windows to handle all of the online content, and MCE's 10 foot experience is superb.



lrhorer said:


> That's not MRV. One of the shortfalls of the TiVo (any CableLabs approved recording device, actually) is the data on the hard drive must be encrypted. Transferring from TiVo to TiVo (MRV) can be done without decrypting and re-encrypting the data. This is not possible betrween a non-TiVo machine and a Tivo. This makes TTCB and TTG transfers slow.


You'd have to cache the shows via TTG on the MCE side, and then have a way to offer the MCE shows to the TiVo in real time. The MCE machine could have 5+TB of disk space, so caching a couple TB of shows wouldn't be that big of a deal. There are ways to break the encryption on the MCE side of things.



Stormspace said:


> Comcast is already doing this on premium channels in many markets. Why they haven't done it on all channels like TWC is questionable, however I have a feeling it might be because they are eliminating analog channels altogether. One thing at a time, so to speak.


It depends on the market. For a while, a bunch of expanded basic channels were in Clear QAM here (Branford, CT), much less flagged. There's really no point to even encrypting if you have enough room for the expanded basic package channels behind the old analog traps, unless you have high cable theft or something. Of course that all changes when you nuke analog and can remove all the traps on the system.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

MCE's user experience is far from superb. On a daily basis it's tedious to use. It offers quite a lot but without a focus on actual viewing. There's way too much digging around in the menus to get to what you're after. I have a 7MC setup so I know what I'm talking about. Pretty much the only reason I put up with it is to get CBS shows that have been cut off by sporting evenings.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Why wouldn't techies want to use it? It is literally the ultimate DVR,


same reason I would not look to use a Unix box for my router/firewall on my home network. The appliance does what I want with less setup, simple footprint and little maintenance.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> same reason I would not look to use a Unix box for my router/firewall on my home network. The appliance does what I want with less setup, simple footprint and little maintenance.


But MCE does so much more, and is finally a fully digital server/client system running all over IP once it ingests the video from CC.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> But MCE does so much more,


you just never actually worry about the content in the post you reply to, do you?

I specifically said many folks do not NEED that extra power and bells. I am in that camp - give me a way to record the shows I want and watch Netflix and I am good to go. TiVo serves my Netflix needs well for mailed DVDs and my instant queue and I have a game console for browsing Netflix. Appliances with no fuss or muss.

Besides what about that PPV/VOD and the fact the comcast DVR was more than enough?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> But MCE does so much more, and is finally a fully digital server/client system running all over IP once it ingests the video from CC.


Because the extenders suck compared to using Tivos. And yes, I have both setups in my house. You obviously do not.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Besides what about that PPV/VOD and the fact the comcast DVR was more than enough?


Well what we're going to see is a split now that there's a true high-end option available. I said that I live at home half the year with my parents, so we don't have a whole bunch of people needing to access a DVR. If we did, we'd have MCE with the Ceton card.

The split is that 99% of people are served by the Comcast DVR, especially when their multi-room support comes around. However, the remaining 1%, which have traditionally been using TiVo, since that was the top of the line (excluding a system with buggy analog recapture and re-compression like Sage), are going to be moving towards MCE, since they are looking for something more power, and that's MCE.

TiVo falls awkwardly in the middle, as a closed, non-PC platform like the cable DVR's, but still being more expensive and requiring the end user to set them up like MCE. So as to address the question of "Will TiVo Stay In Business?", my response would be that since TiVo has currently not innovated with a server/client system or standalone DVR software and lightt streamers to work with the Ceton Card, at this point they will either partner with content providers to provide a pre-packaged solution like they have to a certain extent with SuddenLink, RCN, and Virgin, or they will go out of business.

They ran themselves out of the standalone DVR market.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Well what we're going to see is a split now that there's a true high-end option available. I said that I live at home half the year with my parents, so we don't have a whole bunch of people needing to access a DVR. If we did, we'd have MCE with the Ceton card.
> 
> The split is that 99% of people are served by the Comcast DVR, especially when their multi-room support comes around. However, the remaining 1%, which have traditionally been using TiVo, since that was the top of the line (excluding a system with buggy analog recapture and re-compression like Sage), are going to be moving towards MCE, since they are looking for something more power, and that's MCE.


I see where you are going with this, but I think the foundation you've established as why people adopted TiVo is wrong. You think of TiVo's users as high end consumers wanting a techy solution. I think of them in an entirely different light, similar to Mac users. TiVo users as a whole don't want and aren't interested in a techy solution, they want something simple that works out of box and doesn't require a lot of thought to operate. You may find that many forum users are opposite of that, but I believe they are exceptions.

MCE is still too complicated for many people and because it is windows has all the pitfalls associated with that platform. Primarily trying to shoehorn an multipurpose OS into a single purpose machine. That extra baggage introduces complexity that many users don't want to deal with.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> I see where you are going with this, but I think the foundation you've established as why people adopted TiVo is wrong. You think of TiVo's users as high end consumers wanting a techy solution. I think of them in an entirely different light, similar to Mac users. TiVo users as a whole don't want and aren't interested in a techy solution, they want something simple that works out of box and doesn't require a lot of thought to operate. You may find that many forum users are opposite of that, but I believe they are exceptions.
> 
> MCE is still too complicated for many people and because it is windows has all the pitfalls associated with that platform. Primarily trying to shoehorn an multipurpose OS into a single purpose machine. That extra baggage introduces complexity that many users don't want to deal with.


I think the more techie users are still disproportionately on the Mac. I am sort of a techie, although I can only do two to three things in Terminal, so I can't fully consider myself a techie on the Mac side. That's not to say there aren't lots of "regular" users on the Mac now. There may have been a lot of "regular" users on TiVo in the beginning, but those users don't need TiVo anymore, their cable company has a DVR for them. I'm not even sure that most people know what TiVo is.

Windows is not extra baggage. Want a full YouTube experience? Some video you downloaded in a bizarre format that will only play in VLC? Stream regular Hulu? Look something up online? Stream live video from the web? That can all be done on an MCE box by breaking out of the MCE interface, and there's a full Windows PC back there, but the strictly DVR experience is like a TiVo or cable company DVR. Also on MCE, you don't need TiVoToGo, you just copy/paste over gigabit, and within 30 seconds, you have the file on a laptop ready to go.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Bigg said:


> I think the more techie users are still disproportionately on the Mac. I am sort of a techie, although I can only do two to three things in Terminal, so I can't fully consider myself a techie on the Mac side. That's not to say there aren't lots of "regular" users on the Mac now. There may have been a lot of "regular" users on TiVo in the beginning, but those users don't need TiVo anymore, their cable company has a DVR for them. I'm not even sure that most people know what TiVo is.


If the majority of Mac users have to use the terminal then Apple has failed. Their mantra from the beginning was in escaping the command line.



Bigg said:


> Windows is not extra baggage. Want a full YouTube experience? Some video you downloaded in a bizarre format that will only play in VLC? Stream regular Hulu? Look something up online? Stream live video from the web? That can all be done on an MCE box by breaking out of the MCE interface, and there's a full Windows PC back there, but the strictly DVR experience is like a TiVo or cable company DVR. Also on MCE, you don't need TiVoToGo, you just copy/paste over gigabit, and within 30 seconds, you have the file on a laptop ready to go.


Everything you just mentioned is baggage. I don't see any average user doing any of those things on a TV, as easy as it seems to me or to you only tech savvy users would use or need those functions.

As for your comment that that cable DVR is filling the function that TiVo has is absolutely true and the reason TiVo has been unable to grow of late. Perhaps TiVo needs to cater to a different audience, but at present they are competing for the same customer as the cable company.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Without the cable cards the cable company cannot set the CCI Byte.


Of course they can, and any device can honor the byte without the CableCard. The point, however, is this is not an artifact of the CableCard. Taking your statements literally and at face value, every device with a CableCard has the CCI byte set on every channel. It just isn't so.



Stormspace said:


> Not at all. If you follow the link in my sig you'll see I'm not the only person affected


I never said you were, but the way in which you word your posts would lead one to believe substanitally everyone is. It is not the case.



Stormspace said:


> nor is it a small minority that is.


It's definitely a minority. Exactly how small, I don't really know, but a very significnt fraction of TiVo owners, probably more than half - do not have two TiVos. Of those who do, much more than half are not on systems that aggressively employ the CCI byte restriction. How many people on your thread may be experiencing the issue is nonsequitur. Surely it is an issue - although not an insurmountable one - for a significanrt number of TiVo owners. It is not for most TiVo owners.



Stormspace said:


> I agree that the few providers not employing the CCI byte will soon start doing so.


This is exactly what I mean. It is not "the few" providers who do not agressively employ the CCI byte. Most, including th two largest and several of the larger ones do not. Indeed, more than half of subscribers at this time are served by systems with aggressive CCI byte restrictions. Time Warner is an exception. Admittedly it is a very large one, but TWC does not serve hallf the country.



Stormspace said:


> Exceptions will likely include smaller operators that don't have the technical expertise to make it happen.


It doesn't require any significant technical expertise. What is true, however, is that small operators will not feel as much pressure from the MPAA. Also, unlike TWC, they were not formerly owned by one of the largest members of the MPAA, and that giant member won't own a large chunk of their stock.



Stormspace said:


> Currently no legal alternate solutions include the TiVo equipment we've already invested in.


This is totally false.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bigg said:


> I think the more techie users are still disproportionately on the Mac.


Not even. Technically inclined users have in the main long avoided the Mac. For the most part they still do. The Mac's target audience is artists and technophobes - people who wouldn't know tech if it bit them on the butt. There are exceptions.



Bigg said:


> I am sort of a techie, although I can only do two to three things in Terminal, so I can't fully consider myself a techie on the Mac side.


A "techie" is someone who can read and write in raw machine code. If you don't know why the TCP receive windows size limits the speed of a TCP connection, then you aren't a "techie", at least not in the computer / network arena. Ditto if your mouse is more worn than your keyboard, or if neither one shows extensive signs of wear. (None of the vowels and only half the consonants are visible on the tops of the keycaps of this PC.)



Bigg said:


> Windows is not extra baggage.


It is junk extraordinaire. Certainly few "techies" if any, are in any way enamoured of it. Even - or rather especially - those of us forced to work with it every day hate it.



Bigg said:


> Want a full YouTube experience?


Not really, but even if I did, I would not particularly look to Windows.



Bigg said:


> Some video you downloaded in a bizarre format that will only play in VLC?


There isn't any such thing. If there were, however, I still would not particularly turn to Windows. In reality, I probably would just dump the video. Unless this were a one and only copy of a murder being committed, it's probably not worth my time - not that I go around downloading video off the net in the first place.



Bigg said:


> Stream regular Hulu? Look something up online? Stream live video from the web? That can all be done on an MCE box by breaking out of the MCE interface, and there's a full Windows PC back there


Which is a really good reason to run away screaming.



Bigg said:


> but the strictly DVR experience is like a TiVo


No, it isn't.



Bigg said:


> or cable company DVR.


Yeah, it is. Another reason to run screaming.



Bigg said:


> Also on MCE, you don't need TiVoToGo


'Not needed on the TiVo, either, although admittedly most people use it for video transport off the TiVo.



Bigg said:


> you just copy/paste over gigabit, and within 30 seconds, you have the file on a laptop ready to go.


Don't talk nonsense. Even h.264 files are not that small, nor is a 1G network that fast. A typical 1080i MPEG2 movie runs about 10 - 15 GB and as much as 35 - 40GB. Transferring a 10GB file at 1 full Gbps will take more than 80 seconds on very powerful file servers, let alone a laptop, and a 30G file takes several minutes. Few single disk workstations can manage a sustained 900+ Mbps, especially over a 1000Mbps link. I can manage that between my servers, but to a laptop? Forget it. I just transferred a 10G video file - A Beautiful Mind - to this PC at top speed from a very powerful file server over a 1G link: it took 6 minutes 49 seconds.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, those things are amazing. You can have four tuners of each type


How is that an advantage? Given the exceeding minimal amount of recording you say you do, even 2 tuners is not all that much of an advantage, but even for those of us who record dozens of programs a day, 4 tuners offer very little real advantage over 2. Given a very obtuse approach to recording and resolution conflict, 3 tuners can occasionally be lickety-split convenient, but I only very, very rarely run into intractably irresolute conflicts on my TiVos. That said, TiVo could do a much better job of providing for resolution conflicts in software. Indeed, I hope they do. It would be far better than a hardware solution.



Bigg said:


> so you could have a Ceton card, and four QAM tuners for the local channels as well for a total of 8. Sure, four tuners is great for one user, but the whole power of MCE is that you can shift the whole paradigm of the DVR and have one 8-tuner, 5TB MCE PC


To what advantage? No hand waving. Be specific.



Bigg said:


> that is open and software customizable


What planet are you on?? Microsoft has absolutely no open platfroms, at least no major ones, and Windows is the furthest thing on the planet from open or configurable. Only Apple hardware and software is less open, and neither platform is anything but a really bad joke when it comes to being configurable. I might have been inclined to bark at you, but having seen a couple of your posts relating to your age, I'll only say you have a great deal to learn, my young friend.



Bigg said:


> and then stream to extenders for all the other TVs, all in HD. That's way beyond what any TiVo can do


Not in the least. It's what I do now, although the tuners are distributed among three TiVos. If one of the TiVos fails, I've lost very little in the way of recording capability or in the way of videos. If someone comes up with some open source softwre for the Ceton card that can come even remotely close to having the recording featires of a TiVo, I might consider moving the recording capability, at least in part, to one of my servers. Until then, forget it.



Bigg said:


> and that's where all the techies are headed.


Not even close, I'm afraid. I *AM* a techie. In fact, I am a veteran professional engineer. Your suggestion offers very little appeal, to me.



Bigg said:


> This isn't rocket science. If TiVo wanted to do streaming, it would be easy to use MoCA to do it.


So says the guy who thinks he is "sort of a techie". Take it from the guy who is an engineer - no quotes - and happens to know something of rocket science: you are wrong. From a technical standpoint the Premier probably could, but there are more than just technical roadblocks that are probably in the way. The S3 would be hard pressed to do so reliably, and TiVo might be very foolish to introduce a feature that was inherently unreliable. The THD definitely could not manage it with any acceptable level of reliability. I suspect TiVo might implement streaming on the Premier, but I would not blame them if they did not. It could be a risky move, and TiVo is not known for taking lots of risks.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> same reason I would not look to use a Unix box for my router/firewall on my home network. The appliance does what I want with less setup, simple footprint and little maintenance.


Oh, get real! I had to set up a Windows router just a couple of weeks ago. It was an exceedingly painful experience, and the result is abysmal, with no way to fix it unless I want to fork over a wad of cash to Microsoft. Even then the result would be pathetic. Setting up a Linux firewall is vastly easier, and it will do what one needs - no matter how specific, with ease. Oh, BTW, that Windows router? I had to put together an additional Linux box to take over most of the functions. As soon as possible, the Windows machine is getting Linux on it. There's just one - very stupid - critical Windows app on the Windows router. If the wireless company ever comes up with a Linux app, or if I can get the Windows app to work in Wine or a Windows VM (I haven't had any time to tinker with it, yet, and the box lives 60 miles from me), the router's hard drive is getting wiped in a big hurry.

Windows in general is a very poor choice for a router (for anything, really), but the 60 mile factor makes a Windows solution really problematic. Remotely managing a Windows router over a slow network is just shy of impossible. Managing a Linux router across the continent even with a dial-up is easy.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> If you're using Tivo with a cable card then you might want 3 tuners, since the Tivo doubles as your cable box. You can't watch another live TV channel while 2 programs are recording.


I haven't watched a "live" program in over 11 years. Why would I? Since I have three TiVos, replacing them with a 4 port card solution like the Ceton would mean 12 tuners. I don't need 12 tuners. I don't even need 3, only very rarely using a 3rd, and I already have 6. A video extender solution would give me four tuners in one location for less money than 12, but then a failure of the central unit would leave me dead in the water. I prefer the tuners and media servers to be distributed. A failure of 1 TiVo has minimal impact.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> If the majority of Mac users have to use the terminal then Apple has failed. Their mantra from the beginning was in escaping the command line.


There's a difference between have to and want to because it's a little faster for some things, and all keyboard based. I would agree that if there is no GUI way to use a computer then it's a bad design. But that doesn't mean there aren't still going to be users who are mashing away at the command line.



lrhorer said:


> Not even. Technically inclined users have in the main long avoided the Mac. For the most part they still do. The Mac's target audience is artists and technophobes - people who wouldn't know tech if it bit them on the butt. There are exceptions.


You're just wrong. Look at all the people on Twit. They are all using Macs. I know a number of "techy" people, and they are probably half and half Win7 and Mac. There are plenty of technophobes on both platforms.



lrhorer said:


> There isn't any such thing. If there were, however, I still would not particularly turn to Windows. In reality, I probably would just dump the video. Unless this were a one and only copy of a murder being committed, it's probably not worth my time - not that I go around downloading video off the net in the first place.


Bittorrent has a lot of it.



lrhorer said:


> Which is a really good reason to run away screaming.


In order to access everything, you would need to use a PC no matter what you're using as your DVR.



lrhorer said:


> No, it isn't.


Yes it is. It records programs, gives you a list of them, and plays them back.



lrhorer said:


> Don't talk nonsense. Even h.264 files are not that small, nor is a 1G network that fast. A typical 1080i MPEG2 movie runs about 10 - 15 GB and as much as 35 - 40GB. Transferring a 10GB file at 1 full Gbps will take more than 80 seconds on very powerful file servers, let alone a laptop, and a 30G file takes several minutes. Few single disk workstations can manage a sustained 900+ Mbps, especially over a 1000Mbps link. I can manage that between my servers, but to a laptop? Forget it. I just transferred a 10G video file - A Beautiful Mind - to this PC at top speed from a very powerful file server over a 1G link: it took 6 minutes 49 seconds.


Fine, I exaggerated a little bit. Even if you're recording in HD, cable HD is about 6GB/hour, and even if you have a slowish laptop that can only handle 250mbps, that's about a 3 minute 30 second transfer for an hour show, half that for a 30 minute show, and less if you have commercial zapping software on the computer that can delete the commercials out before you send it to the laptop. Still way faster than TiVo.



lrhorer said:


> How is that an advantage?... To what advantage? No hand waving. Be specific.


You have ONE DVR for a whole household. While I don't have a use for it, for a larger household, it would be extremely useful. It is more efficient to have a single, larger bank of tuners than a bunch of smaller pairs of tuners, so that if one person needs 3 or 4 at some point, they can do that, whereas on a TiVo system they have to manually move a bunch of the recordings over.

If you have enough tuners, you can assign everything off the networks to be on QAM, non cablecard tuners, so they don't have encryption/DRM. You can have almost everything have some buffer on either end without needing to chop it off. You need a number of tuners in order to supply a whole house with Live TV, since everything is going through the MCE box and then out to the extenders. Not only does the primary TV have a full Windows experience, but the rest of the TVs have a uniform experience, with the same list of shows available all without the need to go and find the program you want and then transfer it. You don't need a whole bunch of boxes running all the time, only the PC needs to be up all the time, and it can also run any other Windows apps you need to be up all the time, like iTunes, or whatever else you need. Lastly, you only have one cable card for the whole house, instead of a bunch, so you cut down on the monthly bills and complications of extra cablecard setups.



lrhorer said:


> What planet are you on??


It is open relative to TiVo in that you can install whatever you wnat on top of it, either separate programs like Boxee, Hulu Desktop, and VLC, or you can customize the MCE functionality with plug-ins. It is not open in the Linux/ Android sense where you can edit the source code.



lrhorer said:


> If someone comes up with some open source softwre for the Ceton card that can come even remotely close to having the recording featires of a TiVo...


Newsflash: MCE is way ahead of TiVo. Matching TiVo's capabilities would be going backwards at this point.



lrhorer said:


> From a technical standpoint the Premier probably could, but there are more than just technical roadblocks that are probably in the way.


They should have looked at the market and the technology before they made the Premiere, and made a more powerful server box that has six tuners and can stream throughout the house. At this point, it's too late now that they are being assaulted from both sides. They are either going to partner with MSO's, build a software product, or continue to die a slow death. If the RCN, Suddenlink, and Virgin deals are used as a model for future deals, then they can be very successful without a presence in the consumer market. However, those three providers in their various businesses are all much more innovative and forward thinking than the average big MSO, being an overbuilder, innovating in super high-speed DOCSIS 3, and being innovative across tons of markets including railroads and cell phones, respectively.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Oh, get real! I had to set up a Windows router just a couple of weeks ago. It was an exceedingly painful experience, and the result is abysmal,


not my point at all 
- I was stating that for my house I buy a Netgear (or whatever brand) router/firewall appliance and plug it in, do a simple setup and use it versus putting LINUX on a PC and configuring it all up to be a router/firewall.

the analogy was for a MCE box to a DVR like TiVo DVR for most folks (even techys) who do not have need for the extras an MCE box would provide


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> not my point at all
> - I was stating that for my house I buy a Netgear (or whatever brand) router/firewall appliance and plug it in, do a simple setup and use it versus putting LINUX on a PC and configuring it all up to be a router/firewall.
> 
> the analogy was for a MCE box to a DVR like TiVo DVR for most folks (even techys) who do not have need for the extras an MCE box would provide


If they don't need an MCE, they will just wander over to their local cable company and pick up whatever the cable company has. Hence why, without MSO deals, TiVo is dead. The RCN deal is great for TiVo, since they are bundling it up with double-play and triple-play packages.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Newsflash: MCE is way ahead of TiVo. Matching TiVo's capabilities would be going backwards at this point.


Nonsense - it's better in certain areas but not as good in others, so to say it's way ahead is absurd. Extenders continue to be the weak point of a 7MC setup. I am running both Tivos and 7MC in my house, btw (with Linksys and Xbox extenders for 7MC), so I do have a valid opinion on the matter.

You?


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## [email protected] (Jul 15, 2007)

But it is the best solution that I have found. And this community is really the big plus I think. I have always received speedy and helpful comments. Just my $.02


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> If they don't need an MCE, they will just wander over .


tech type people do not just wander. Try and stay a little within the context of the posts would yah.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I might have been inclined to bark at you, but having seen a couple of your posts relating to your age, I'll only say you have a great deal to learn, my young friend.


Ding, ding! Give that man a prize.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wkearney99 said:


> Ding, ding! Give that man a prize.


yeah, I have been trying not to harp on his age since he was not making that big a point of it either, but a lot of what we are seeing here, I agree, is a young kid trying to out tech the oldsters


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yeah, I have been trying not to harp on his age since he was not making that big a point of it either, but a lot of what we are seeing here, I agree, is a young kid trying to out tech the oldsters


You don't have to be young to be "geeky" or "techy". I know several people who are easily double my age, and way techier (I know, not a word).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> You don't have to be young to be "geeky" or "techy".


umm, yeah - I know. <looks in mirror> What does that have to do with the point I made in the post?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yeah, I have been trying not to harp on his age since he was not making that big a point of it either, but a lot of what we are seeing here, I agree, is a young kid trying to out tech the oldsters


Perhaps he's yet to learn age and experience beats youth and exuberance, every time.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm - there is no requirement that you have to ditch the cable box to use a TiVo. In fact having the cable box gives you VOD if you want it and most cable companies give you the first cable box for free anyway.
> Also this watching a 3 rd channel live is strange to me. If you have conflicts in the 3 or more range, then get another TiVo DVR or go to something with more tuners. I rarely watch Live TV anymore


That's true, but then that introduces the issue of changing inputs on your TV. Apparently that is an issue with many people and they prefer a solution that doesn't require changing inputs.

I agree with you though. I don't mind changing inputs and I don't watch much live TV.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> That's true, but then that introduces the issue of changing inputs on your TV. Apparently that is an issue with many people and they prefer a solution that doesn't require changing inputs.
> 
> I agree with you though. I don't mind changing inputs and I don't watch much live TV.


If anyone has that issue, how are they going to watch Blu-Rays? Or content off of a laptop?


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Bigg said:


> If anyone has that issue, how are they going to watch Blu-Rays? Or content off of a laptop?


My TV has 1 HDMI input. My receiver has 2 HDMI inputs. So I connect my BluRay player and my TiVo to my receiver.

Laptop connectivity to a TV is rare. Home media center PCs are also rare. Sure, people do it, but not as often you would think. I switch cables if I want to want to watch something off my PC. Maybe I'll buy an HDMI switcher from monoprice one day .

I would guess that there are not that many people that have requirements for more than 2 devices to a TV (DVR plus game system or DVD). Modern TVs I think typically have 3-4 HDMI inputs.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Bigg said:


> If anyone has that issue, how are they going to watch Blu-Rays? Or content off of a laptop?


They won't.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ewilts said:


> My TV has 1 HDMI input. My receiver has 2 HDMI inputs. So I connect my BluRay player and my TiVo to my receiver.
> 
> Laptop connectivity to a TV is rare. Home media center PCs are also rare. Sure, people do it, but not as often you would think. I switch cables if I want to want to watch something off my PC. Maybe I'll buy an HDMI switcher from monoprice one day .
> 
> I would guess that there are not that many people that have requirements for more than 2 devices to a TV (DVR plus game system or DVD). Modern TVs I think typically have 3-4 HDMI inputs.


Current TV's have 4 HDMI, and current receivers have 3-6 HDMI's. That being said, I've seen HDTV's with one component port and no digital ports, so they cover a wide range depending on age.

Laptops are a natural thing to hook up to a TV, that way you can web content onto the TV even if you're really cheap (like me) and don't have an HTPC. My TV has a dedicated VGA port that I use to connect my Macbook. Works great.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

My issue with an MCE box isn't the hardware, which is indeed much more powerful than a TiVo, but the software. As I understand it, the basic DVR functionality (season passes, wishlists, conflict resolution, proper handling of new vs repeat, etc) is either missing or broken compared to a TiVo. Cableco DVR users report similar problems with missed recordings. It's also clunkier and takes a lot longer to get anything accomplished in the MCE UI. Four tuners is great, if your cablecard can deliver 4 streams (aren't most 2?), but if I can't set and forget I'm not switching.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

tivogurl said:


> My issue with an MCE box isn't the hardware, which is indeed much more powerful than a TiVo, but the software.


Yup, starting with the fact that you're running Windows. That means regular patches and reboots, continual updating to the latest graphics drivers, etc. Overall, I found running my MCE system a royal pain in the butt compared to running a TiVo.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tivogurl said:


> My issue with an MCE box isn't the hardware, which is indeed much more powerful than a TiVo, but the software. As I understand it, the basic DVR functionality (season passes, wishlists, conflict resolution, proper handling of new vs repeat, etc) is either missing or broken compared to a TiVo. Cableco DVR users report similar problems with missed recordings. It's also clunkier and takes a lot longer to get anything accomplished in the MCE UI. Four tuners is great, if your cablecard can deliver 4 streams (aren't most 2?), but if I can't set and forget I'm not switching.


Incorrect, the only thing missing is advanced wishlists (boolean searches) - everything else is there and works in 7MC, with the occasional repeat show recorded as new being the only issue for me. The guide data is not as accurate as Tivo's, IMO, but it is free.

All M-cards deliver up to 6 streams, it's in the spec. S-cards are not available now. But you might have to get a couple of tuning adapters to have 4 streams for some channels, on some cable systems (mine doesn't use TAs). And you'll have to shuck out $400 right now to get 4 streams with the Ceton tuner card.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Incorrect, the only thing missing is advanced wishlists (boolean searches) - everything else is there and works in 7MC, with the occasional repeat show recorded as new being the only issue for me. The guide data is not as accurate as Tivo's, IMO, but it is free.


I've read numerous complaints that WMC will randomly skip new episodes of series recordings, even if the episode showed as scheduled to record the day before, to the point that you have to watch the system daily or miss episodes, and that WMC will lie about what happened (like claiming the episode wasn't recorded by user request). That's far from "set and forget" like I get with TiVo.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The only reason the Ceton card doesn't support 6 tuners is because of an arbitrary software limitation in MCE.

We've had to babysit a lot of stuff on TiVo and our Comcast box. The fact of the matter is that guide data isn't always accurate, and channels will switch stuff up last minute. Guide data is usually perfect for network prime time stuff, but once you get into any show that's got repeats, it might work 95% if you're lucky, but that's no guarantee.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bigg said:


> The only reason the Ceton card doesn't support 6 tuners is because of an arbitrary software limitation in MCE.
> 
> We've had to babysit a lot of stuff on TiVo and our Comcast box. The fact of the matter is that guide data isn't always accurate, and channels will switch stuff up last minute. Guide data is usually perfect for network prime time stuff, but once you get into any show that's got repeats, it might work 95% if you're lucky, but that's no guarantee.


I know of two shows I record that have repeats with generic info issues. Ironically - the correct use of a wishlist fixes it on the TiVo. 
The only problem the TiVo had is that it recorded some repeats along with the regular shows. Other than that I have maybe 4 instances over 5 years of shows that did not record on TiVo.

so perhaps you could give some real data on how you need to babysit the TiVo


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I know of two shows I record that have repeats with generic info issues. Ironically - the correct use of a wishlist fixes it on the TiVo.
> The only problem the TiVo had is that it recorded some repeats along with the regular shows. Other than that I have maybe 4 instances over 5 years of shows that did not record on TiVo.
> 
> so perhaps you could give some real data on how you need to babysit the TiVo


I've seen a lot more shows than that over the years have messed up SP's or whatnot. Guide data isn't perfect, and no DVR is ever going to be perfect. TiVo Premiere would be worse than the old S2 too since it has to deal with duplicate and triplicate stuff with only one in HD instead of just SD duplicates.


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