# How long until cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

Just curious.. how long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?

Our cable guy just left after installing the cards for our new Series 3 HD and when I asked him, he didn't seem to know either.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

The S3 (meaning all S3s including the HD) will never be able to do VOD + PPV, it does not have the hardware to manage it.


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

SeanC said:


> The S3 (meaning all S3s including the HD) will never be able to do VOD + PPV, it does not have the hardware to manage it.


Really? Wow, I had no idea.


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

If I subscribe to something like Howard TV, can I get that on my Cable Card?


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Its really not a hardware issue... VOD/PPV is not done via a standard interface which makes it very unlikely to ever be present on an S3/THD. Once the mythical Series 4 OCAP box arrives.. VOD/PPV should be available on it.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

jkalnin said:


> If I subscribe to something like Howard TV, can I get that on my Cable Card?


If it is a normal linear channel... sure.. If it is SDV and you have a Tuning adapter then sure.... I dont see why not.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Its really not a hardware issue... VOD/PPV is not done via a standard interface which makes it very unlikely to ever be present on an S3/THD. Once the mythical Series 4 OCAP box arrives.. VOD/PPV should be available on it.


PPV works just fine for most cable companies on a S3.


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

rainwater said:


> PPV works just fine for most cable companies on a S3.


Not if you're a Comcast subscriber in the southeast. There is no way to access PPV. That is all done on the same VOD channel 1. That's what I just went through with the cable guy.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

rainwater said:


> PPV works just fine for most cable companies on a S3.


If you manually order either on the phone or thru a cableco box... perhaps yes.. but the order interface is typically proprietary and likely to be IP based which TiVo doesnt deal with.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> If you manually order either on the phone or thru a cableco box... perhaps yes.. but the order interface is typically proprietary and likely to be IP based which TiVo doesnt deal with.


Most will tell you it isn't possible. However, at least with TW and Charter it can be done over the phone if you can talk to the right person. Its all a matter of authorizing your account with the PPV order. Once that is done, it doesn't matter whether it is a TiVo or cable box.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Most will tell you it isn't possible. However, at least with TW and Charter it can be done over the phone if you can talk to the right person. Its all a matter of authorizing your account with the PPV order. Once that is done, it doesn't matter whether it is a TiVo or cable box.


Agree


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Most will tell you it isn't possible. However, at least with TW and Charter it can be done over the phone if you can talk to the right person. Its all a matter of authorizing your account with the PPV order. Once that is done, it doesn't matter whether it is a TiVo or cable box.


And what channel do you watch it on? Comcast PPV or VOD can only be watched on Channel 1.

Also, Comcast told me (more than one service rep + more than one technician) that it can't be done (meaning, Comcast + series 3 HD).


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

wasnt there a thread about seachange doing an interface for the S3, for video on demand, using ip,Similar to amazon, and netflix ?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> wasnt there a thread about seachange doing an interface for the S3, for video on demand, using ip,Similar to amazon, and netflix ?


Press release: TiVo, SeaChange Team up to Integrate Cable Video On-Demand Offerings Into TiVo DVRs .

Seachange VOD could be delivered via the Internet, or it could potentially be accessed using the SDV adapter.

Traditional VOD access requires (a) bidirectional communication and (b) support for the specific VOD system. There are several different VOD systems in widespread use, and none of them are compatible. Seachange is probably the most common VOD system; it is used by Verizon FiOS, most [but not all] Comcast systems, many Time Warner systems, among others.

Earlier this year, Comcast said it planned make all of its VOD available online to customers. To me, that suggests that Seachange may be working on an IP-based solution.


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Earlier this year, Comcast said it planned make all of its VOD available online to customers. To me, that suggests that Seachange may be working on an IP-based solution.


Interesting! Thanks for sharing this


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:


> If it is a normal linear channel... sure.. If it is SDV and you have a Tuning adapter then sure.... I dont see why not.


I beleive the howard tv "channel" is not linear at all- it's basically a collection of VOD titles- not even a switched linear channel like SDV would handle. So without vod support your are SOL. Perhaps the seachange deal changes that but for now....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Its really not a hardware issue... VOD/PPV is not done via a standard interface which makes it very unlikely to ever be present on an S3/THD. Once the mythical Series 4 OCAP box arrives.. VOD/PPV should be available on it.


the series 4 is not mythical - TiVo has discussed it and acknowledges they are working on such a design. when it is available is indeed an open question however.

As to the question of the OP. SCSIRAID is correct that an S3 or TiVo HD will not natively do PPV or VOD within the TiVo and never will. You can phone a friend but that is a different thing.

for PPV and VOD to work - you need a way to talk back to the cable company and tell them you want something. That involves a DOCIS modem that cable boxes have but TiVo DVRs do not. The series 4 will include that DOCIS modem hardware.

The other part is showing an interface to select and order PPV/VOd from. A compromise has been made there and it will be an OCAP setup - basically a Java virtual machine inside the TiVo that will run software from the cable company to present their offerings. That is also part of series 4.

Now recently TiVo made some deal with a the provider of a lot of PPV/VOd for cable companies but no details were made available over what that will be.


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## tdel73 (Dec 26, 2007)

how about the MLB Extra innings, is that considered VOD? or can you get that with TiVo?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Press release: TiVo, SeaChange Team up to Integrate Cable Video On-Demand Offerings Into TiVo DVRs .


I note in that press Release that TiVo really was doing a hard sell to cable operators on the costs savings of using the TiVo Box



> By teaming with SeaChange we are enabling cable operators without OCAP/tru2way deployment plans to increase the breadth and depth of their offering by quickly deploying TiVo set-top boxes that seamlessly integrate VOD in a single, intuitive TiVo interface, said Tom Rogers, TiVos president and chief executive officer. This solution also enables participating MSOs to take their on-demand offering to a whole new level by highlighting VOD titles within TiVo universal search results. And the beauty of this is that it can be achieved faster and at a lower cost than most solutions that have been available to cable operators to date.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

tdel73 said:


> how about the MLB Extra innings, is that considered VOD? or can you get that with TiVo?


I get NHL Center Ice on Comcast on a TivoHD no problems. They're currently just regular chanels that are authorized when you pay for them.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Ziggie said:


> Thanks Zeo  You're a nice person.
> 
> I realized I wasn't going to be able to watch PPV/VOD when the cable guy was still here. That's why I was curious as to whether or not cable cards would ever have the ability to do it.


the next TiVo hardware model (we refer to it as series 4 in the forum) will have the hardware/software that along with cable cards can do PPV/VOd - but no date for when that is available and 2010 is the optimistic guess.

cable cards themselves will never enable PPV/VOD functionality - they just ensure security by having the key to decrypt any encrypted channel


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the next TiVo hardware model (we refer to it as series 4 in the forum) will have the hardware/software that along with cable cards can do PPV/VOd - but no date for when that is available and 2010 is the optimistic guess.
> 
> cable cards themselves will never enable PPV/VOD functionality - they just ensure security by having the key to decrypt any encrypted channel


Thanks Zeo


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> ....
> 
> Seems tivo is trying to do a work around with seachange- hopefully that pans out for us current users but the press release doesn't specifically say our boxes will be upgraded with new software to allow it. I think it was implied somplace that we would be all getting upgraded but i dont have that handy anyplace.


I'm getting less and less of a warm fuzzy that anyone will be able to buy their own tivo at retail and connect it to cable and get VOD.

http://www.multichannel.com/article..._Primary_DVR_Choice_In_One_Tru2way_Market.php



> In other action on the cable front, Rogers called out its partnership with SeaChange International to let small and midsize cable providers operators deploy TiVo DVR service while avoiding middleware investments such as tru2way implementation.


sounds more and more like tivo is just trying to rent/sell customized tivo HD hardware to small and midsize cable providers. On the big 5 and we may be SOL unless we rent cable company DVR's that get tivo software pushed to them...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> I'm getting less and less of a warm fuzzy that anyone will be able to buy their own tivo at retail and connect it to cable and get VOD.
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article..._Primary_DVR_Choice_In_One_Tru2way_Market.php
> 
> sounds more and more like tivo is just trying to rent/sell customized tivo HD hardware to small and midsize cable providers. On the big 5 and we may be SOL unless we rent cable company DVR's that get tivo software pushed to them...


Even the early press release mentioned *participating* cable systems. Time will tell if cable systems like Comcast and TW decide to participate. I guess how the VoD revenue is divided up between the cable operator,tivo and seachange may be a factor. The other issue will be if the VoD that's free on the cable systems STB will also be free on tivo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm getting less and less of a warm fuzzy that anyone will be able to buy their own tivo at retail and connect it to cable and get VOD.
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article..._Primary_DVR_Choice_In_One_Tru2way_Market.php
> 
> sounds more and more like tivo is just trying to rent/sell customized tivo HD hardware to small and midsize cable providers. On the big 5 and we may be SOL unless we rent cable company DVR's that get tivo software pushed to them...


There is the partnership with Comcast for a tru2way Tivo deploy.
The standalones will not be main focus on finding a viable business model - that is for sure BUT they make a great platform for TiVo to try out and show off what Tivo can do.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

Did anyone answer the original question, "How long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?"

Technically, isn't the answer, "CableCards themselves already can - the problem is, it is the hardware (e.g. the TiVo) into which you put the CableCard that has to be able to do it (which no current model can do, but presumably is at the top of pretty much everybody's "wish list for things to put into the TiVo S4 design")"?

-- Don


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## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

That Don Guy said:


> Did anyone answer the original question, "How long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?"
> 
> Technically, isn't the answer, "CableCards themselves already can - the problem is, it is the hardware (e.g. the TiVo) into which you put the CableCard that has to be able to do it (which no current model can do, but presumably is at the top of pretty much everybody's "wish list for things to put into the TiVo S4 design")"?
> 
> -- Don


Thanks Don :up:


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

That Don Guy said:


> Did anyone answer the original question, "How long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?"
> 
> Technically, isn't the answer, "CableCards themselves already can - the problem is, it is the hardware (e.g. the TiVo) into which you put the CableCard that has to be able to do it (which no current model can do, but presumably is at the top of pretty much everybody's "wish list for things to put into the TiVo S4 design")"?
> 
> -- Don


The Series4 will support Tru2way which will allow a cable mode which supports VOD/PPV just like a cable box. Except for cable companies own cablecard devices which have proprietary software, there are not any cablecard devices that support the cable companies VOD model. True2way is the answer to this problem.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm - did you miss the partnership with Comcast for a tru2way Tivo deploy.
> The standalones will not be main focus on finding a viable business model - that is for sure BUT they make a great platform for TiVo to try out and show off what Tivo can do.


no i didn't miss that but the seachange software is supposed to be out year end and if lucky would have worked on the hardware that we all already own.

the ocap comcast version will be TESTED some time soon in a couple markets. Considering they have been testing the tivo non-ocap deployement in boston for umpteen months- might be years more till every comcast sub has that option. Who knows what hardware it will run on- might be the cripled 160gb dvr's that comcast is using now. And it wont come with all the tivo stand alone box features.

So to me that's not the holy grail. It might be pretty cool but it will force a choice.

I want my cake and to eat it too.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Ziggie,
In case this has not been fully clarified yet... There are two ways to authorize yourself to decrypt a PPV channel: 1) interactively through the TV or 2) through the phone system.

The TiVo cannot do #1. This is the stock answer that you will often get from CSRs.

The TiVo can do #2 though if you can navigate through your regional phone system. Once enabled, you simply tune to the PPV channel ie 801, 802 etc.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

That Don Guy said:


> Did anyone answer the original question, "How long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?"
> 
> Technically, isn't the answer, "CableCards themselves already can - the problem is, it is the hardware (e.g. the TiVo) into which you put the CableCard that has to be able to do it (which no current model can do, but presumably is at the top of pretty much everybody's "wish list for things to put into the TiVo S4 design")"?
> 
> -- Don


multiple people answered the question, but lets answer it again to clarify things correctly.

it is wrong to say cable cards themselves can already handle PPV/VOD. All cable cards do is decrypt digital channels that are encrypted and hold a map of channels. They do nothing else at all, ever, period.
So, as you say, (and was answered early in the thread) hardware in the form of DOCIS modem to talk back to cable company and hardware software needed to run a Java virtual sandbox for the cable company software to present PPV/VOD is needed. That is not in the current TiVo models, thus the next gen of TiVo hardware will have to be waited on. 2010 is the optimistic answer as to when we might see that next round of TiVo hardware.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

That Don Guy said:


> Did anyone answer the original question, "How long do you think it will be before cable cards can handle VOD + PPV?"
> 
> Technically, isn't the answer, "CableCards themselves already can - the problem is, it is the hardware (e.g. the TiVo) into which you put the CableCard that has to be able to do it (which no current model can do, but presumably is at the top of pretty much everybody's "wish list for things to put into the TiVo S4 design")"?
> 
> -- Don


First reply?



SeanC said:


> The S3 (meaning all S3s including the HD) will never be able to do VOD + PPV, it does not have the hardware to manage it.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

I think there is some confusion here about PPV. There are two ways to do PPV:

1) A certain range of channnels (say, 801, 802, ...) are continuously playing the PPV offerings, but normally you are not authorized to receive those channels. If by some means (on-screen requests on a set-top box, Web site, calling Comcast, whatever) you can can get authorization for a certain channel for a certain interval of time, you can watch that PPV program on that channel at that time. This is fundamentally no different from subscribing to a premium channel so you can see a particular channel; just the interval of the authorization is different. The Cablecard in the TiVo is told what channels it should allow, and the PPV channels are handled the same as any other encrypted channel.

2) PPV may be offered as pay selections on the Video On Demand (VOD) menu on a Comcast set-top box. Since TiVos currently don't have the ability to access the VOD functionality, you cannot see PPV if this mechanism is used on your system. It's not a question of getting the authorization; the TiVo simply doesn't have the ability to access VOD of *any *type.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

From TiVo Covers Its Cable Bases @ Lightreading.com (May 28):


> TiVo's overall cable play also hinges, in part, on a partnership with SeaChange International Inc. (Nasdaq: SEAC) that enables TiVo's current stable of retail DVRs to offer VoD content from the MSO without the presence of a tru2way stack. In this scenario, the box's Internet connection acts as the return path, interfacing with the cable VoD system to set up video streaming sessions.


From TiVo, Comcast Discount Targets HD Subs  @ Lightreading.com (March 3):



> On the SeaChange front, TiVo intends to make cable VoD services available on some stand-alone TiVo retail DVRs that can support CableCARDs, but the host box itself doesn't have an inherent ability to communicate upstream on the cable plant. Although future tru2way TiVo boxes will have these "two-way" capabilities, the SeaChange integration will ensure that TiVo's one-way devices can support cable VoD "without having to invest in a major porting software effort," Rogers said.
> 
> Rogers didn't go into much technical detail about how this would be done, but SeaChange director of product management Kim Wilson tells Cable Digital News that the plan is to use the Internet connection on the TiVo box as a return path to interface with the cable VoD system.
> 
> ...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> From TiVo Covers Its Cable Bases @ Lightreading.com (May 28):
> 
> From TiVo, Comcast Discount Targets HD Subs  @ Lightreading.com (March 3):


thanks for posting those links- some interesting stuff on that website.

I still can't figure tivo's plan with seachange.

one of your quotes says "retail" but isn't clear that anyone can just buy a tivohd and plug it into a participating head end and get vod.

then this link
http://www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid=419&doc_id=172917&site=cdn



> TiVo and SeaChange, a vendor that happens to supply VoD software and back-office systems to both Comcast and Cox, said the integrated combo will be available to participating cable MSOs on "select" TiVo-branded hi-def cable boxes later this year.


what's "select" mean?

and availible to MSO's- not availible to consumers...

I guess we'll find out when it comes around but I'm thinking there's little chance of my two current S3's on the local comcast system will be getting VOD from the seachange deal.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Ziggie said:


> Thanks Zeo  You're a nice person.
> 
> I realized I wasn't going to be able to watch PPV/VOD when the cable guy was still here. That's why I was curious as to whether or not cable cards would ever have the ability to do it.


CableCards have always had the ability to do it. The inability to receive IPPV and VOD has nothing to do with CableCards. How do you think the CATV company DVRs and STBs do it? They all use CableCards. All CableCards are 2-way. They always have been, from the very first CableCard which rolled off the assembly line. If they were not, they would not function at all. The ability to participate in interactive services (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with CableCards, other thant he fact, of course, that once a service agreement has been made and a channel map established by the interactive mechanisms, the CableCard does the decrypting of the content, if necessary, and tells the host to which QAM to tune.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> and availible to MSO's- not availible to consumers...
> 
> I guess we'll find out when it comes around but I'm thinking there's little chance of my two current S3's on the local comcast system will be getting VOD from the seachange deal.


The limitation is not a technical one. It is entirely a matter of whether the MSO decides to support it, or not.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> I still don't get how that works.
> 
> What channel would it show up on...? Do they tell you on the phone tune to channel xxx?


Some MSOs deliver their IPPV over encrypted linear channels. In this scenario, it's dead easy, since all that is required is the encryption key be sent to the CableCard. Others employ SDV channels. In this case, of course, the TiVo must have a TA in order to be able to receive the channel, but it is still delivered over the ordinary CATV infrastructure, no different in technical details than authorizing a premium SDV channel for the customer, but only doing it for an hour and a half or so. Others use VOD mechanisms to deliver their IPPV, and the TA is not enabled to deal with VOD. There is no technical reason why it could not be developed to do so, but it would require a cooperative UI development between TiVo, Inc. and the MSO.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lew said:


> To answer the OPs question, cable cards (at least as are currently deployed) don't handle two way communication.


This is false. All CableCards in all conceivable deployments, past present, and future, are 2-way. The CableCard does not handle communications with the CATV system, at all. All communications are with the host, and they are all 2-way.


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