# Lost 5-8-08 Cabin Fever



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Wow.


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Wow.


I agree with that assessment.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I just wanted to start the thread by saying something, otherwise there would be multiple threads.

After last week's meh episode, this one was great. I love episodes that deal with the island mythology, with Ben, with Locke, and Hurley.

Jack's tsoris, and the Kate/Jack/Sawyer love triange? meh.

Now we know why Mr. Widmore will never find the island; why he doesn't know where it is. Because they moved it.

Is Christian dead or alive? Is Claire Dead or alive? Aaron, obviously is not supposed to be raised on the island.

The immortal guy is really immortal (or at least very old). 

Who is Lt. Daniels working for?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Just way too much tgo process......

So, the producers had said something along the line that at some point "flash back" or "flash forward" wouldn't mean anything. What if none of the flashes were what we think of as flashes. What if the whole time it has been travel events in the effort of the Island to save itself?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Oh, and the scene withi Hurley and Ben sharing the Apollo candy bar.....priceless.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jlb said:


> Just way too much tgo process......
> 
> So, the producers had said something along the line that at some point "flash back" or "flash forward" wouldn't mean anything. What if none of the flashes were what we think of as flashes. What if the whole time it has been travel events in the effort of the Island to save itself?


I just think they meant that the flash forward would "catch up" with real time so there wouldn't be any more flashforwards.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Maybe it is what they want us to think..........

I guess we can sort of say Ben is no longer a "baddie". I think this solidifies that he was just the chosen one, until now. He was the custodian of Island trying to get it to move, to be saved, etc. Now it is John. I suppose the next one would be Aaron.

You know, what makes this episode, and others, more special now is knowing that the writers know they are taking it to conclusion. I know that has been said before, but it means there will be payoff.

When Hurley cut the bar in half and gave it to Ben, I almost thought Ben was going to say "I love you man"..... 

I need to watch again.........


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm just in awe of Michael Emerson's acting. The whole scene at the beginning. "I don't know, I was following him." 
Just awesome. It was all awesome.

What could have Christian told Claire to make her so cool and relaxed and for the first time in the entire show, she is not saying, "Aaron, where's aaron?"


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

"Destiny is a fickle *****."


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jlb said:


> Just way too much tgo process......
> 
> So, the producers had said something along the line that at some point "flash back" or "flash forward" wouldn't mean anything. What if none of the flashes were what we think of as flashes. What if the whole time it has been travel events in the effort of the Island to save itself?


I've been thinking the same for a few weeks, now.

Great episode. Keamey is one mean so-and-so. And I thought Michael said (wrote) not to trust the captain, yet they did anyway.

When little John was asked to pick things that belonged to him, why did he pick the knife, and why was that the wrong answer? At first I thought the kid just picked it because he wanted it; but now I'm thinking it could be something else.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

wprager said:


> I've been thinking the same for a few weeks, now.
> 
> Great episode. Keamey is one mean so-and-so. And I thought Michael said (wrote) not to trust the captain, yet they did anyway.
> 
> When little John was asked to pick things that belonged to him, why did he pick the knife, and why was that the wrong answer? At first I thought the kid just picked it because he wanted it; but now I'm thinking it could be something else.


There was the same exact scene in another movie, Kundun, about the Dali Lama. When he was a young kid, the monks came to his village and put a bunch of items on the table and asked which one belongs to him (remember each Lama is the previous one reincarnated). He picked the right one though.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Excellent episode and I can't wait till next week! I want to rewatch this one a couple times to try and get all the info. 

What's up with that orderly guy being the same guy that hired the crew (charlotte, miles, etc) that is there now? He's the same guy that comes to see hurley in one of the flashforwards too.


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## jpwoof (May 19, 2004)

quick question about the schedule. has it always been 10:00p?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

betts4 said:


> Excellent episode and I can't wait till next week! I want to rewatch this one a couple times to try and get all the info.
> 
> What's up with that orderly guy being the same guy that hired the crew (charlotte, miles, etc) that is there now? He's the same guy that comes to see hurley in one of the flashforwards too.


I was thinking he might be Jacob.  "Next time you see me you'll owe me" & "I'm more than an orderly."


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I've lost track of Claire...where was she supposed to be?

As in, when we last left her, where was she?


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

With the appearance of Matthew Abaddon in Locke's flashback, I'm starting to worry if Locke's being taken down a path that ultimately will end in evil. You know what they say: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, wow. My brain just melted.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

hefe said:


> I've lost track of Claire...where was she supposed to be?
> 
> As in, when we last left her, where was she?


She was woken up by Christian and followed him in last week's or (was it the week before?) episode.

She had such a strange grin in that cabin. Almost creepy.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> I've lost track of Claire...where was she supposed to be?
> 
> As in, when we last left her, where was she?


She was with Sawyer & Miles & took off in the night. Left Aaron in a tree.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> There was the same exact scene in another movie, Kundun, about the Dali Lama. When he was a young kid, the monks came to his village and put a bunch of items on the table and asked which one belongs to him (remember each Lama is the previous one reincarnated). He picked the right one though.


Thank you, THAT'S where I remembered it from! I knew I had seen it before, but didn't remember where.

What a great episode. I have NO idea how Christian fits in to all this, but I love this mess.


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

I wonder if the statue "crumbled" because the island has been moved before...

and I 100&#37; agree with Aaron being the "next chosen one".


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Who is Lt. Daniels working for?





betts4 said:


> What's up with that orderly guy being the same guy that hired the crew (charlotte, miles, etc) that is there now? He's the same guy that comes to see hurley in one of the flashforwards too.


As Betts points out, he hired the crew so he must work for Widmore. I can only assume that with this show.



jlb said:


> Maybe it is what they want us to think..........
> 
> When Hurley cut the bar in half and gave it to Ben, I almost thought Ben was going to say "I love you man".....
> 
> I need to watch again.........


I was humming in my head: "Break me off a piece of that Wid-more-Bar!"


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## mightyb (Dec 5, 2003)

Also, I wonder where John would "move" the island too. And does it have anything to do with the graphic they now show at the end with the words LOST and the "island" under the word and a skyline above the word.

Island, skyline?? Manhattan?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> When little John was asked to pick things that belonged to him, why did he pick the knife, and why was that the wrong answer? At first I thought the kid just picked it because he wanted it; but now I'm thinking it could be something else.





Turtleboy said:


> There was the same exact scene in another movie, Kundun, about the Dali Lama. When he was a young kid, the monks came to his village and put a bunch of items on the table and asked which one belongs to him (remember each Lama is the previous one reincarnated). He picked the right one though.


A surprise podcast appeared this week, I was listening to it on the way home from work today. Specifically they were talking about the way a Dalai Lama is chosen, in reference to Locke, and this episode.

And btw did you guys see the comic? Mystery Tales Magazine, "What was the secret of the mysterious HIDDEN LAND!" A man, on an airplane, looking out the window in fright, with a city below and a city floating above, in the sky.

Also kudos need to be given to the teenage Locke. He had his speech patterns and mannerisms down REALLY well, I noticed it before he said, "Don't tell me what I can't do." Specifically when he said, "I'm NOT a SCIENTIST! I like BOXING, and FISHING, and CARS! I like SPORTS!" The way he emphasized the words. The kid did a great job.

Greg


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

mightyb said:


> Also, I wonder where John would "move" the island too. And does it have anything to do with the graphic they now show at the end with the words LOST and the "island" under the word and a skyline above the word.
> 
> Island, skyline?? Manhattan?


What? The double imagery of the city and the island has been in place since the beginning of the season emphasizing the season's focus on the Oceanic Six's future off the island.

I assume that when the Oceanic Six leave by raft in the next few episodes, Locke moves the island making it impossible to find again. It was previously hidden, until Desmond blew the Swan Station up, making it visible temporarily-when the Artic monitoring people who worked for Penny found it. I assume that when Locke moves the island again, this will put that plan back to square one-thus the reason in the future, Jack flies back and forth over the Pacific hoping to crash-he doesn't know where Locke moved the island to.

Also-it looks like the "Secondary Protocol" is related to the Orchid Station-and thus the teleportation abilities. More than likely I would guess responsible for moving the island.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/SCPJA8fd8mI/AAAAAAAABGg/iyvFpXvKNxg/s1600-h/protocol.jpg

I also loved Young Locke's drawing of Cerberus. Very creepy.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Wow!

Keamey is nuts.
Killing the doctor, while great drama, was foolish as he still might need him.
And the dossier he pulled from the safe appeared to have the Dharma logo on it.
How is Widmore connected to the Dharma Initiative?

Jack sure is up and around fast. Is this the Island's healing power?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So out of

The baseball mitt
the book of Laws
the vial of sand
the watch
the comic book
the knife

belonged to John? 

What was the right answer?

I think it was the vial of sand, because it was the sand from the island, and the island belongs to him.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> So out of
> 
> The baseball mitt
> the book of Laws
> ...


I thought the same thing-plus it was the first thing he contemplated.


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## FlugPoP (Jan 7, 2004)

Well we know why Jack can't get back to the island... they moved it.


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

FlugPoP said:


> Well we know why Jack can't get back to the island... they moved it.


But did they move it in physical three-dimensional space or.... hmmm...


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> So out of
> 
> The baseball mitt
> the book of Laws
> ...


It seemed he was doing well when he picked the vial and the compass. Richard only seemed disappointed when he picked the knife.

I also interpretted this as John _wanting _the knife but knowing it wasn't one of the choices he _should_ have made.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Was it a watch or a compass?

I thought it was a watch, and instantly thought of the Christopher Walken scene from Pulp Fiction.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

It was definitely a compass. I think it was the "Book of Laws" that he was supposed to choose but didn't.

I think Locke intentionally didn't choose the book. Like he intentionally didn't do what he was great at, Science. He was SUPPOSED to choose the Science camp, it's what the Island wanted him to choose, but being a "fighter" he chose to ignore his "true calling," and go with what he thought he SHOULD be to fit in with other boys; A jock, sportsman kind of guy.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> .What could have Christian told Claire to make her so cool and relaxed and for the first time in the entire show, she is not saying, "Aaron, where's aaron?"


Maybe she's dead?



aintnosin said:


> But did they move it in physical three-dimensional space or.... hmmm...


...anybody know what *"time"* it is?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

betts4 said:


> Excellent episode and I can't wait till next week! I want to rewatch this one a couple times to try and get all the info.
> 
> What's up with that orderly guy being the same guy that hired the crew (charlotte, miles, etc) that is there now? He's the same guy that comes to see hurley in one of the flashforwards too.


Well, he *did* say he was not just an orderly.

Turtleboy, thanks for the background on the Dalai Lama "selection process". Didn't know that and I was wondering what it could have meant. Although if they are now adding reincarnation into the Lost universe I don't like it. Of course, reincarnation is just a small step away from Desmond's time-traveling consciousness so, perhaps, it won't be too "new-age".


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Peter000 said:


> It was definitely a compass. I think it was the "Book of Laws" that he was supposed to choose but didn't.
> 
> I think Locke intentionally didn't choose the book. Like he intentionally didn't do what he was great at, Science. He was SUPPOSED to choose the Science camp, it's what the Island wanted him to choose, but being a "fighter" he chose to ignore his "true calling," and go with what he thought he SHOULD be to fit in with other boys; A jock, sportsman kind of guy.


That was pretty much how I saw it too. I wondered about the book of laws because the comic looked pretty cool too. But the sand and compass may have been what he was 'supposed' to pick while the knife was what he wanted to be supposed to pick.

The knife looked pretty old too.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tewcewl said:


> She was woken up by Christian and followed him in last week's or (was it the week before?) episode.
> 
> She had such a strange grin in that cabin. Almost creepy.


We know that Christian is dead, so I'm probably not alone in thinking that Claire is also.

Also, I just googled "book of laws" for fun and giggles, and the first link that came up (broken, but I looked at the cached version) has to do with witches and covens.

Curiously, a couple results later there was a link to The Great Book of Laws, related to "Sky Island" -- a novel by L. Frank Baum ("Wizard of Oz").

Of course this is such a generic term that it could be almost anything.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

My wife thought Claire was dead, too. I admit it makes sense; I can't think of any other way she could be so calm about leaving Aaron. But, how did she die? It seems odd.

For almost the very first time on this show I feel like I can see how a plot point will turn out: Sayid gets himself, Jack, Kate, Aaron, Sun, and Hurley (oh wait...) off the island in the first trip back to the freighter in the Zodiac, but then before he can come back for more people Locke moves the island. Jack's despair at the end of last season was because he knows the island is still out there but he can't find it.

Of course, I'm probably wrong.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Wow. There was so much to digest here.

Desmond said he was never going to set his feet on the island again but he isn't one of the O6 so I wonder how his story will play out.

So the helicopter pilot dropped his gps unit out of the chopper. This was probably to help them stay away from Keamy. If Frank knew what was good for him. He'd drop off Keamy and his men and then go back to the ship leaving them stranded on the island.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

madscientist said:


> .......For almost the very first time on this show I feel like I can see how a plot point will turn out: Sayid gets himself, Jack, Kate, Aaron, Sun, and Hurley (oh wait...) off the island in the first trip back to the freighter in the Zodiac, but then before he can come back for more people Locke moves the island. Jack's despair at the end of last season was because he knows the island is still out there but he can't find it.
> 
> Of course, I'm probably wrong.


No, I don't think so. I think you are right on. And I think the closure the writers know is ahead is making things clearer for us, the viewers.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

danplaysbass said:


> Wow. There was so much to digest here.
> 
> Desmond said he was never going to set his feet on the island again but he isn't one of the O6 so I wonder how his story will play out.


Although, he really couldn't be part of the O6 anyway...like Ben...never was on the plane.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

hefe said:


> Although, he really couldn't be part of the O6 anyway...like Ben...never was on the plane.


Thats true.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I was not awed by this episode. Better than the last one but I thought this episode was practically a parody of itself. "Move the island" makes me think of that satirical video somebody made a few years ago that talks about magic turtles and the ocean being missing. I don't know how Terry O'Quinn can deliver these lines with a straight face.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Claire died in the explosion during the attack on Ben's place. We just didn't know it when 'miraculuosly' Sawyer retrieved her & Aaron. The Island was using the Claire, now avatar, to rescue Aaron. I think we've seen ample evidence that he Island somehow manifests dead people as avatars and agents. 

I love Locke stories. My favorite character along with Sayid and nowadays Ben. I believe that the Island in the form of 'Richard' impregnated Locke's mother. Cute, well done 50s scene. It's the Island's way of renewing itself. I agree that the teenage Locke was well scriped and extremely well acted. Kudos to the writers, producers and actor.

Obviously the Island can translate thru spacetime. Maybe it quantum superpositions itself elsewhere and forms an insulating cocoon of electromagnetic (which includes light) interference.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

danplaysbass said:


> Wow. There was so much to digest here.
> 
> Desmond said he was never going to set his feet on the island again but he isn't one of the O6 so I wonder how his story will play out.
> .


Note also that Michael is not recognized as an official O6 member even though he had returned to the USA previously. This sets up the scene we saw long ago of the funeral attended by a depressed Jack; it's Michael in the casket.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Richard doesn't age. Makes me think that he, and many of the original others, are dead. Perhaps they are the crew of the Black Rock.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

wprager said:


> Well, he *did* say he was not just an orderly.
> 
> Turtleboy, thanks for the background on the Dalai Lama "selection process". Didn't know that and I was wondering what it could have meant. Although if they are now adding reincarnation into the Lost universe I don't like it. Of course, reincarnation is just a small step away from Desmond's time-traveling consciousness so, perhaps, it won't be too "new-age".


I'm not sure if that is the real process or not. I just remember the movie.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Claire died in the explosion during the attack on Ben's place. We just didn't know it when 'miraculuosly' Sawyer retrieved her & Aaron. The Island was using the Claire, now avatar, to rescue Aaron. I think we've seen ample evidence that he Island somehow manifests dead people as avatars and agents.


I think if this was true they would have played the "claire wakes up concerned about where aaron is, then sees a man holding him" scene differently.

Z


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> Note also that Michael is not recognized as an official O6 member even though he had returned to the USA previously. This sets up the scene we saw long ago of the funeral attended by a depressed Jack; it's Michael in the casket.


Ben isn't either, yet we see him off the island. And for michael it would fit the profile of down and out guy in that area with mom maybe paying for funeral.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

JYoung said:


> Wow!
> 
> Keamey is nuts.
> *Killing the doctor*, while great drama, was foolish as he still might need him.
> ...


Was it obvious to others, but it just hit me.

At first I thought the Doctor on the boat was a fake, but the one the found on the shore dead WAS that Doctor and it was in the future. So when Keamey killed the Doctor and tossed him overboard to be washed up on shore a few days before


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

gchance said:


> Also kudos need to be given to the teenage Locke. He had his speech patterns and mannerisms down REALLY well, I noticed it before he said, "Don't tell me what I can't do." Specifically when he said, "I'm NOT a SCIENTIST! I like BOXING, and FISHING, and CARS! I like SPORTS!" The way he emphasized the words. The kid did a great job.


I was thinking the same thing while watching that scene. He did a great impersonation.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> At first I thought the Doctor on the boat was a fake, but the one the found on the shore dead WAS that Doctor and it was in the future. So when Keamey killed the Doctor and tossed him overboard to be washed up on shore a few days before


That didn't make any sense to me, according to how things have been before... things have taken LONGER to get to the island (the rocket thingie, the waiting for Sayid and Desmond to contact them)... this happened on the island BEFORE it happened on the boat. Looking forward to see if that's explained.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

MickeS said:


> That didn't make any sense to me, according to how things have been before... things have taken LONGER to get to the island (the rocket thingie, the waiting for Sayid and Desmond to contact them)... this happened on the island BEFORE it happened on the boat. Looking forward to see if that's explained.


I don't think there is a direct formula for time. I think the truth is the island is just out of sync, and it could be faster or slower than real time.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

MickeS said:


> That didn't make any sense to me, according to how things have been before... things have taken LONGER to get to the island (the rocket thingie, the waiting for Sayid and Desmond to contact them)... this happened on the island BEFORE it happened on the boat. Looking forward to see if that's explained.





Magister said:


> I don't think there is a direct formula for time. I think the truth is the island is just out of sync, and it could be faster or slower than real time.


I think it could go either way, either the body went BACK in time, or that he wasn't the real doctor.

But since they didn't do anything with the possibility for not the real doctor, I tend to think he was the real doctor.


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

MickeS said:


> That didn't make any sense to me, according to how things have been before... things have taken LONGER to get to the island (the rocket thingie, the waiting for Sayid and Desmond to contact them)... this happened on the island BEFORE it happened on the boat. Looking forward to see if that's explained.


I suspect that, when the island is moved, it's going to alter how the rest of the world (including the boat) is placed in time.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> There was the same exact scene in another movie, Kundun, about the Dali Lama. When he was a young kid, the monks came to his village and put a bunch of items on the table and asked which one belongs to him (remember each Lama is the previous one reincarnated). He picked the right one though.


I just read (in Lostpedia, spoilerized because it refers to DVD commentaries):



Spoiler



In the Season 3 DVD commentary for "The Man from Tallahassee", Richard Alpert is described as someone who is not interested in leading the Others but is very influential in finding and selecting a leader. In the commentary for "The Man from Tallahassee", he is described as being similar to a Panchen Lama choosing the next Dalai Lama. He and Ben keep each other in "check" by having the power to pick/veto each other's replacement on the Island. Ben's role would be to pick the next Panchen, should the need arise. This keeps the two in a sort of balanced power relationship. They are allies, yet they have some measure of control over the other should one get out of hand.


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> So out of
> 
> The baseball mitt
> the book of Laws
> ...


I'm thinking he chose the item proving he was the chosen. Alpert didn't like that for what ever reason and bailed.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Barmat said:


> I'm thinking he chose the item proving he was the chosen. Alpert didn't like that for what ever reason and bailed.


That makes no sense.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> I believe that the Island in the form of 'Richard' impregnated Locke's mother.


The problem with that theory is that it's been quite well established that Locke's biological father is Anthony Cooper.

Remember him? The one who "stole" Locke's kidney?

The kidney compatibility thing is the strongest evidence that he is indeed Locke's father.

Also, in the episode "The Brig", it's established that Anthony Cooper, Locke's father, is in fact, the "Real Sawyer", the one who caused the death of Sawyer's parents, who James Ford (our "Sawyer") named himself after in an act of some sort of self loathing. This is certainly one of the more intriguing connections between the characters.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Barmat said:


> I'm thinking he chose the item proving he was the chosen. Alpert didn't like that for what ever reason and bailed.


Unlike MickeS, I think this makes *perfect sense.*

In fact, that was exactly my take on the scene.

I think this was a test, to see if Locke was _who "they" were *afraid he might be!*_

I think that *Locke passed the test with flying colors*, and from the point of view of who Alpert actually works for (Dharma? Widmore? Some previous group with interest in the island?), that's a *BAD THING.* They don't want him to become the future custodian of the island.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> Unlike MickeS, I think this makes *perfect sense.*
> 
> In fact, that was exactly my take on the scene.
> 
> ...


I think that if that were the case, they wouldve killed young John. They certainly don't seem to be above staging an accident to get rid of someone who might do them (or the island) harm in the future.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Unlike MickeS, I think this makes *perfect sense.*
> 
> In fact, that was exactly my take on the scene.
> 
> ...


Richard wasn't upset or scared, he was disappointed and angry for wasting his time. If he had passed the test, Richard would undoubtedly have taken John with him (no matter if he was pleased or displeased with that outcome).


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I think that if that were the case, they wouldve killed young John. They certainly don't seem to be above staging an accident to get rid of someone who might do them (or the island) harm in the future.


There are many possibilities why they might have not killed him. One possibility is that it wouldn't have done any good. Lots of "dead" people are having profound effects on the island anyway!

Another slightly different spin is that it was OK with "them" that he passed the test, but they did not want to reveal that to him at that time. They just wanted that information for themselves.

Also, the premise was that he was being tested for entry into some special school. Since that was clearly a ruse, if they told him he passed, they'd have had to admit him into some non-existent school that they made up!

*They couldn't reveal to him that he passed because the whole premise of the test was a ruse anyway!*

I think he passed for obvious reasons. The three things he picked, the sand, the compass, and the knife are icons defining exactly who Locke, indeed, is on the island.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Richard wasn't upset or scared, he was disappointed and angry for wasting his time. If he had passed the test, Richard would undoubtedly have taken John with him (no matter if he was pleased or displeased with that outcome).


No way is that obvious.

They may know that he needs to be left where he is to fulfill his destiny.

My take on the "test" was that they were ascertaining whether he was the "chosen one" that they suspected he was.

If the test indicated that he was (as I believe it did) it's very possible that taking him away would have disrupted that very destiny that the test indicated.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> The immortal guy is really immortal (or at least very old).





jamesbobo said:


> Richard doesn't age. Makes me think that he, and many of the original others, are dead. Perhaps they are the crew of the Black Rock.


Why does Richard necessarily have to be ageless or very old? Couldn't we just be seeing "present-day" Richard, time-hopping?


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

So now when Ben teleports to the desert in the future to find Sayid and Mr. Widmore-he basically leaves Locke in charge of the island...


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Fish Man said:


> No way is that obvious.
> 
> They may know that he needs to be left where he is to fulfill his destiny.
> 
> ...


i didn't see that scene as them believing he passed at all, quite the opposite, he seemed genuinely pissed off that he had spent years around John for no reason. i think John deliberately failed the test, unknown to himself as 'why' he was failing, but happening none-the-less.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

danterner said:


> Why does Richard necessarily have to be ageless or very old? Couldn't we just be seeing "present-day" Richard, time-hopping?


While that is certainly a possibility I feel the creators of the show have been trying to emphasize that he is ageless. We've seen him at the same age with long hair. To me that's a sign that he simply doesn't age. I think he will be tied in to the island's mythology of the statue, ruins and hieroglyphics.

EDIT: Actually I just thought about something-when Richard met Locke as a boy, he had short groomed hair. When he met Ben as a boy, he had wild, long hair. I wonder what the two years were...


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Who was the black guy that was wheeling Locke around later, we recognized him but couldn't place him.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I think it's clear now that Locke was the sole motivation for 815 to crash. Everyone else is just a supporting character. 

However, if they hadn't grabbed 815, the island wouldn't be under attack right now. Locke is the one, by not entering the numbers, who caused it to be found. Perhaps the whole thing is just the continuation of Locke's big trial of faith in the island...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

spikedavis said:


> ...EDIT: Actually I just thought about something-when Richard met Locke as a boy, he had short groomed hair. When he met Ben as a boy, he had wild, long hair. I wonder what the two years were...


Probably sometime in the 60s.......that's when I had long hair....now I just don't even have hair...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

I also think that the orderly may be Jacob...or some form of Jacob. There was the thought that Christian was Jacob, but as he said last night, he's not. But he is authorized to speak for him. I'm thinking Jacob can probably take the form of whoever he wants.

I'm sure John "failed" Richard's test. But it would seem he did it on purpose. It seemed like he KNEW the knife wasn't the right answer but chose it anyway. I think he was suppose to pick the comic book. I got the feeling Richard put the knife on top of the comic book as kind of a decoy and when John picked up the knife it looked like Richard was waiting for him to put it back down to get the comic book.

I also think Claire is probably dead. She kept complaining of a headache, could be she had some kind of brain anurisim or something after the explosion. There's no way she would just be that cool with not being with Aaron unless she had come to terms with something...like her own death.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> Who was the black guy that was wheeling Locke around later, we recognized him but couldn't place him.


Lance Reddick, who also played Lt. Daniels in The Wire. He's been in Lost before too; his character's name is Matthew Abaddon.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I also think Claire is probably dead. She kept complaining of a headache, could be she had some kind of brain anurisim or something after the explosion. There's no way she would just be that cool with not being with Aaron unless she had come to terms with something...like her own death.


Agreed.

She's 100% at peace with what's going on. She accepts it, and at least at some level, understands it.

She's "dead"; whatever "dead" means in the context of the island and it's influence.

Christian, who it's pretty clear is "dead", exhibits the same serenity and acceptance.


----------



## Slime (Apr 6, 2003)

I think it's clear that the Island needs Michael for a bit longer. Same problem as in NY, he couldnt be killed -- and this time it was obvious that the Island's influence was the cause.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that Claire is dead. We've seen many different manifestations of dead characters in the show. Some appear only in dreams, some appear to be hallucinations and we're just not sure. I think from what we've seen of Christian he's in a category by himself.

The same logic that would lead to thinking Claire is dead should lead to thinking that Locke is dead. I mean, he came out of there and just matter-of-factly declared that they're going to move the island. Convincing someone that her baby is fine in the care of another person would certainly be a lot easier than convincing someone that he's going to literally move an island. Her headaches can easily be explained by a mild concussion from the explosion.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I'm just in awe of Michael Emerson's acting. The whole scene at the beginning. "I don't know, I was following him."
> Just awesome. It was all awesome.
> 
> What could have Christian told Claire to make her so cool and relaxed and for the first time in the entire show, she is not saying, "Aaron, where's aaron?"


That's what my wife and I were wondering. What sane mother would abandon her baby?


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> Who was the black guy that was wheeling Locke around later, we recognized him but couldn't place him.


Same dude that spoke to Hurly in an earlier episode this season. He was in the mental hospital.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> EDIT: Actually I just thought about something-when Richard met Locke as a boy, he had short groomed hair. When he met Ben as a boy, he had wild, long hair. I wonder what the two years were...


Locke was born May 30, 1956. The Dharma Initiative was founded in the 1970's. Any rough estimate of Ben's age would put his arrival on the island some time in the 1970's.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Locke was born May 30, 1956. The Dharma Initiative was founded in the 1970's. Any rough estimate of Ben's age would put his arrival on the island some time in the 1970's.


Thanks.

I thought he was supposed to have been born in 1956, which leads to an anachronism in this show (of course with the time-travel and all...)

In this episode, just before prematurely giving birth to Locke, his mother put on a 45 of "Everyday" by Buddy Holly. This single was released in the fall of 1957. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyday_(Buddy_Holly_song)

Another nerdy anachronism nit:

[nerdy nit-pick]
The record player she used had a BSR OEM turntable mechanism with a plastic platter and plastic tone arm that was not made until the early 70's (and was rather ubiquitous in cheap 70's record players). I think this is why the record player was shown in out-of-focus closeup. The properties department could not come up with a working record player of the correct vintage. The best they could do was early/mid 70s.
[/nerdy nit-pick]


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that Claire is dead. We've seen many different manifestations of dead characters in the show. Some appear only in dreams, some appear to be hallucinations and we're just not sure. I think from what we've seen of Christian he's in a category by himself.
> 
> The same logic that would lead to thinking Claire is dead should lead to thinking that Locke is dead. I mean, he came out of there and just matter-of-factly declared that they're going to move the island. Convincing someone that her baby is fine in the care of another person would certainly be a lot easier than convincing someone that he's going to literally move an island. Her headaches can easily be explained by a mild concussion from the explosion.


I don't see why people assume she's dead too. That's kind of a leap. She's more....hypnotized.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Well, if Locke did "fail" the test, then why was Richard so ga ga over him when he finally met him on the island. Don't you remember that? He was Locke's ally in the others, he gave him the file on his dad, etc. 

BTW, isn't Richard dead now? I seem to have a hole in my memory there.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

WOW!!! This was a fantastic episode!

Michael Emerson never ceases to amaze. :up: Ooooh, he's a master!



Fish Man said:


> Agreed.
> 
> She's 100% at peace with what's going on. She accepts it, and at least at some level, understands it.
> 
> ...


That was certainly my take on it. I couldn't think of any other reason why she wouldn't even have asked Locke about Aaron...

and, yeah, there's going to be something more from the Jack/illness/surgery bit... he was way to 'back to normal' on this episode. If the Island were saving/healing him, would have even needed the surgery? Whats-her-name? Darn! Can't recall - but the SOS interpreter guy's wife... anyhoo - she made a great point last week - the Island heals, it doesn't make you sick. I'm curious to see the point of that. Does the Island not want him to leave, part of the _Jack's not supposed to raise Aaron_ story?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> Whats-her-name? Darn! Can't recall - but the SOS interpreter guy's wife...


Rose.  



SoBelle0 said:


> Does the Island not want him to leave, part of the Jack's not supposed to raise Aaron story?


I've been thinking along those same lines.

Jack's leaving the island is a "mistake", and he comes to clearly understand that it's a mistake. That's why he spirals into depression, drug addiction, and alcoholism.

Hurley leaving the island may be a mistake too... Being back in the real world makes him crazy again. He becomes convinced he's dead.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I thought he was supposed to have been born in 1956, which leads to an anachronism in this show (of course with the time-travel and all...)
> 
> ...


Perhaps they purposely chose a song from the wrong year to distract people from the far more blatantly obvious BSR OEM turntable mechanism with plastic platter and plastic tone arm anachronism. The viewers would all have been too busy discussing how the song came out a year _after_ Locke was born to notice.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> Well, if Locke did "fail" the test, then why was Richard so ga ga over him when he finally met him on the island. Don't you remember that? He was Locke's ally in the others, he gave him the file on his dad, etc.
> 
> BTW, isn't Richard dead now? I seem to have a hole in my memory there.


No, he went to the temple with the rest of the Others a while back.

My interpretation was that the first few items indicated that Locke was "special" and that Locke actually knew that the knife didn't really belong to him, but he was sort of giving in to some sort of selfish desire to have it. Or something along those lines. So Richard knew (or was pretty sure) that Locke was supposed to be "chosen" but wasn't mature enough for it at the time, but figured he had matured considerably by the time he'd gotten to the island. Especially if Richard knew what Locke had gone through with his injury and everything.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

whitson77 said:


> Same dude that spoke to Hurly in an earlier episode this season. He was in the mental hospital.


Thank you!!

It was driving me crazy. I knew we'd seen him on "Lost" before and couldn't place him.

Now that you point it out, no doubt whatsoever it's supposed to be the same character (and not just the same actor playing two different parts).


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> BTW, isn't Richard dead now? I seem to have a hole in my memory there.


He isn't dead-the last we saw of him was the Season 3 finale when Ben sent him and the remaining Others to the Temple to wait for him.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I may be smeeking here, but with Lost and the play on the names of characters, I went and looked this one up -

I wonder if we'll have an episode entitled "Be Here Now" r.e. Richard Alpert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Alpert The name can't be a coincidence with this lot of writers.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I thought Locke as a boy failed the test, as well. When John shows up on the Island, Alpert realizes he was wrong. That's why he helps John by giving him the file on Sawyer.

I also think Claire is "dead" - in the same way Christian Sheppard is "dead", whatever that state really is.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Agreed.
> 
> She's 100% at peace with what's going on. She accepts it, and at least at some level, understands it.
> 
> ...





SoBelle0 said:


> That was certainly my take on it. I couldn't think of any other reason why she wouldn't even have asked Locke about Aaron...


She doesn't have to be dead. Didn't Shannnon see a Walt apparition and we later found out that he wasn't dead?


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Someone pointed this out to me in a phone call this morning (Thanks, Parris!) and now I'm starting to think that Locke failed the test, as well.

When Locke is picking out the items on the table, he picks out the vial of sand and the compass. He doesn't really hesitate with those two items, he just kind of grabs them.

But then the camera shows his face, and it's as though he's putting serious thought into his selection. The camera shows the Book of Laws and Locke looking at it, and there's a moment where it looks like he's going to pick it... and then he grabs the knife instead.

I wouldn't be surprised if he *knew* he was supposed to pick up the Book, but intentionally chose the knife to throw the test. It would be fitting with the rest of the theme of the episode, which is "John Locke spent 50 years refusing to follow his destiny"


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

betts4 said:


> I may be smeeking here, but with Lost and the play on the names of characters, I went and looked this one up -
> 
> I wonder if we'll have an episode entitled "Be Here Now" r.e. Richard Alpert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Alpert The name can't be a coincidence with this lot of writers.


Definitely not a coincidence, but out of all the references to philosophers, etc. the only related episode title I can think of is the Locke-centered "Tabula Rasa."


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Skittles said:


> Someone pointed this out to me in a phone call this morning (Thanks, Parris!) and now I'm starting to think that Locke failed the test, as well.
> 
> When Locke is picking out the items on the table, he picks out the vial of sand and the compass. He doesn't really hesitate with those two items, he just kind of grabs them.
> 
> ...


i like this.. except for that it's John, not Benjamin Locke


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Also just thought of another thing....

Richard works for The Others. He was part of the plan to kill the Dharma Initiative.

Abaddon works for Mr Widmore/The Dharma Initaitive. He basically "nudged" Locke to go on his walkabout-presumably with the intention of getting him on the island.

So both sides were basically putting their feelers out to Locke before he got on the island...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Definitely not a coincidence, but out of all the references to philosophers, etc. the only related episode title I can think of is the Locke-centered "Tabula Rasa."


Tabula Rasa was Kate-centered.

Walkabout was the early Locke episode.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

milo99 said:


> i like this.. except for that it's John, not Benjamin Locke


Although they both had a mother named Emily.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

jehma said:


> Although they both had a mother named Emily.


Whoa! That can't be a coincidence.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

teknikel said:


> Whoa! That can't be a coincidence.


More than likely just emphasizing that they are two sides of the same coin.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> Also just thought of another thing....
> 
> Richard works for The Others. He was part of the plan to kill the Dharma Initiative.
> 
> ...


hmmm... i was wondering what Abaddon's deal was, was he actually a double agent somehow? or had his own agenda? but this makes more sense, although, how would Widmore know anything about Locke's specialness?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

milo99 said:


> hmmm... i was wondering what Abaddon's deal was, was he actually a double agent somehow? or had his own agenda? but this makes more sense, although, how would Widmore know anything about Locke's specialness?


It sounded like Ben and Widmore had a long history together. Who knows how much each one knows about the other "side".


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

milo99 said:


> i like this.. except for that it's John, not Benjamin Locke


Whoops. 

Let me go fix that.

(Sorry, it's the Michael Emerson effect)


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> Tabula Rasa was Kate-centered.
> 
> Walkabout was the early Locke episode.


Sorry. I was thinking of the real-life John Locke and just meant it was related to his idea.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

teknikel said:


> Whoa! That can't be a coincidence.


Damon and Carlton's mothers are both named Sue.

Depends what you mean by coincidence. I'm sure the writers realized that they were giving both mothers the same name, but perhaps they didn't intend any real significance within the show. Perhaps they meant it as simply an intentional coincidence. I mean, considering the number of characters who have appeared in the show so far, one would expect to encounter at least some people with the same first names.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

You mean like Charlie Pace, Charles Widmore and a girl named Charlotte? A 'Charlene' or 'Carly' is probably down the line. 

And how about this; Ben's mom and Locke's mom have both been named Emily and Aaron's mom is played by an actress named Emilie!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

gchance said:


> Also kudos need to be given to the teenage Locke. He had his speech patterns and mannerisms down REALLY well, I noticed it before he said, "Don't tell me what I can't do." Specifically when he said, "I'm NOT a SCIENTIST! I like BOXING, and FISHING, and CARS! I like SPORTS!" The way he emphasized the words. The kid did a great job.
> 
> Greg


Too bad for young Locke that the type of BOXING he wound up getting involved with involved literal boxes, not pugilism...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> Abaddon works for Mr Widmore/The Dharma Initaitive. <snip>


Do we know this for a fact? The reason I ask is, we know Abaddon hired Naomi & her gang of four. We know Widmore hired Keamy. Both groups are on the freighter (Widmore's freighter). But do we actually know that Abaddon works for Widmore? Could there be a reason Abaddon got his gang of four on the freighter, yet not be part of the Widmore group? Or not be what Widmore thinks they are (IOW, Widmore takes on the four, not knowing Abaddon has originally hired them for something else).

It seems like they are together, but on LOST, just because A=B and B=C does not mean A=C.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

astrohip said:


> It seems like they are together, but on LOST, just because A=B and B=C does not mean A=C.


Lost violates the Transitive Property? That explains everything.


----------



## logicman1 (Jan 10, 2008)

re little John picking the knife... Locke sure demonstrated his prowess with knives in prior seasons.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Do we know this for a fact? The reason I ask is, we know Abaddon hired Naomi & her gang of four. We know Widmore hired Keamy. Both groups are on the freighter (Widmore's freighter). But do we actually know that Abaddon works for Widmore? Could there be a reason Abaddon got his gang of four on the freighter, yet not be part of the Widmore group? Or not be what Widmore thinks they are (IOW, Widmore takes on the four, not knowing Abaddon has originally hired them for something else).
> 
> It seems like they are together, but on LOST, just because A=B and B=C does not mean A=C.


No, we don't know that. And it's hard to draw any conclusions from what we do know. It seemed pretty likely that Abaddon and Naomi had a separate mission from the science team, and it seems clear that Keamy has his own agenda as well. But that doesn't mean Keamy and Naomi's plans had anything to do with each other.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

gchance said:


> Also kudos need to be given to the teenage Locke. He had his speech patterns and mannerisms down REALLY well ... The way he emphasized the words. The kid did a great job.


Yeah. He should be an actor.


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> No, we don't know that. And it's hard to draw any conclusions from what we do know. It seemed pretty likely that Abaddon and Naomi had a separate mission from the science team, and it seems clear that Keamy has his own agenda as well. But that doesn't mean Keamy and Naomi's plans had anything to do with each other.


Yeah this is true. Now that I think about it there seemed to be about 3 separate agenda "groups" on the freighter. 4 if you count Michael.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Completely random: I kept wondering why the inflatable boat had a 'boat name,' but it turns out that Zodiac is the brand of inflatable boats. He he. I guess i don't get out much.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> I believe that the Island in the form of 'Richard' impregnated Locke's mother.


Still getting caught up on this thread, but I had to reply to this one:

We already know who Locke's dad is ... the guy who conned him out of his kidney and was eventually murdered by James (Sawyer).



Fish Man said:


> The problem with that theory is that it's been quite well established that Locke's biological father is Anthony Cooper.
> 
> Remember him? The one who "stole" Locke's kidney?
> 
> ...


As the FishMan said, so said I ...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I thought he was supposed to have been born in 1956, which leads to an anachronism in this show (of course with the time-travel and all...)
> 
> ...


Actually the captions said that it was the Don McLean version, which was not recorded until 1973.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Also nobody's mentioned that Teenage Locke is a fan of Geronimo Jackson and has a poster of them in his locker at school. 

Greg


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> ... Being back in the real world makes him crazy again. He becomes convinced he's dead.


Maybe *he* is the sane one, and the producers lied (about heaven/purgatory/whatever).


----------



## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

As for Claire being dead, maybe that's why the Asian guy from the freighter was so interested in her. Remember Sawyer constant'y telling him about the ""restraining order"? We know he can talk to dead people.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> Yeah this is true. Now that I think about it there seemed to be about 3 separate agenda "groups" on the freighter. 4 if you count Michael.


I guess you'd say Michael was a defense against one of the agendas.

Doesn't Frank Lapidus sort of have his own priorities as well? He said he was only hired to fly the scientists but it doesn't seem that the scientific stuff was his real concern. The conversation between Naomi and Abaddon about what to do if they found 815 survivors was very ambiguous. If they truly had no expectation of finding 815 survivors, you'd think there'd be no reason to even mention it. Lapidus obviously knew there was something fishy about the initial TV report, but we have no idea what led him to the Kahana or how he found out that it would have anything to do with finding them. I don't see how any definitive broad conclusions can be drawn from this amalgamation of information.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

betts4 said:


> I may be smeeking here, but with Lost and the play on the names of characters, I went and looked this one up -
> 
> I wonder if we'll have an episode entitled "Be Here Now" r.e. Richard Alpert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Alpert The name can't be a coincidence with this lot of writers.


Or "Still Here: Embracing *Aging*, Changing and Dying".


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

jehma said:


> Although they both had a mother named Emily.


You know, I wonder if Ben and John could be brothers. It seemed that John was in an adoptive home and perhaps as John's mother gets older, she then has another kid (Ben) then dies at the side of the road.

Although am I remembering Johns mother showing up in season 2 or 3 when he loses the kidney.....could that be his adoptive mother instead of biological??


----------



## millewalkee (Jan 23, 2006)

Anyone have an idea what Keamy had strapped to his arm? It reminded me of an XM radio receiver.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> Completely random: I kept wondering why the inflatable boat had a 'boat name,' but it turns out that Zodiac is the brand of inflatable boats. He he. I guess i don't get out much.


Well.. It would be like saying go get in hte John Boat, or go get in the Pontoon. Zodiac has become almost as generic as Coke when referring to a ruggedized inflatible with motor.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

millewalkee said:


> Anyone have an idea what Keamy had strapped to his arm? It reminded me of an XM radio receiver.


That's what my hubby thought it was too.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

millewalkee said:


> Anyone have an idea what Keamy had strapped to his arm? It reminded me of an XM radio receiver.


Someone on another forum said it's a guitar tuner. I'm sure it's supposed to be something else in the context of the show, hehe.

Greg


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

No one has yet mentioned that Horus was an Egyptian god. There are many references to Horus, but he was in conflict with his uncle Set over the domination of Egypt. His eye was gouged out, later restored, and the Eye or Horus was symbolic of Egypt's second rise to power (middle kingdom?). He was the sky god,and the sun god prior to Ra.

What this all has to do with the guy cutting down trees to build a cabin for his wife I'm not certain. There is always a reason for something like this on Lost. 

How long did Horus say he had been dead?

I think Claire died in the explosion. 

I'm not sure what unnerved me more, Richard at Locke's birth, Richard with Locke when he was a boy, Locke's picture of the smoke monster, or the pick-the-item game. Richard does not age is merely a money saving measure for makeup.  The whole item picking process and result has my head spinning. It can be taken in almost any way, so it says a lot, but ultimately nothing.

I think that Keamy had a dead-man-switch attached to himself, and it was to trigger an explosive on the boat.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> You know, I wonder if Ben and John could be brothers. It seemed that John was in an adoptive home and perhaps as John's mother gets older, she then has another kid (Ben) then dies at the side of the road.
> 
> Although am I remembering Johns mother showing up in season 2 or 3 when he loses the kidney.....could that be his adoptive mother instead of biological??


No, it was his biological mother, Emily, who helped trick him into giving Cooper his kidney.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> You know, I wonder if Ben and John could be brothers. It seemed that John was in an adoptive home and perhaps as John's mother gets older, she then has another kid (Ben) then dies at the side of the road.
> 
> Although am I remembering Johns mother showing up in season 2 or 3 when he loses the kidney.....could that be his adoptive mother instead of biological??


I had the same thought, but:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001436/

Swoosie Kurtz is credited as Emily Annabeth Locke in "Deus Ex Machina."


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

sjgmoney said:


> As for Claire being dead, maybe that's why the Asian guy from the freighter was so interested in her. Remember Sawyer constant'y telling him about the ""restraining order"? We know he can talk to dead people.


Precisely. And it's why the "Bruce Lee" a.k.a. the Asian Guy from Sixteen Candles let Claire just walk off with her Dad. Just another night at the office for Ghostbusters.

To coin a phrase... "She's dead, Jim."


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

sjgmoney said:


> As for Claire being dead, maybe that's why the Asian guy from the freighter was so interested in her. Remember Sawyer constant'y telling him about the ""restraining order"? We know he can talk to dead people.


I honestly think that this subject is being overanalyzed. Claire was obviously alive when she, Sawyer and Miles trekked through the jungle, found Karl & Danielle's body, etc. To assume that just because she is hanging out in Jacob's cabin with her old man means she's dead seems off base to me.

As a matter of fact, I really don't even think that Christian Shephard is dead now. He was holding Aaron-that makes me think he has physical form as opposed to the materializations of dead people that we've seen previously like Eko's brother and Ben's mother. Maybe when 815 crashed on the island, he was ressurected similar to how Locke's paralysis was healed. The island has the ability to prevent Michael from being killed-it's not a stretch to believe that it brought Christian back.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I recall very knowlegeable posters here saying that the producers (years ago) said that Christian was dead. Admitedly, that could be a false memory.

My bet is against resurrection. These apparitions are Island created avatars of deceased and alive (Walt, and others TBD) people, including the ability to interact with physical surroundings. The Island also seems able to project folks thru spacetime to other off-island locals, e.g. Ben in Tunisia. All part of the mysteries once researched and possibly amplified by Dharma. For all we know the Island is a crashed alien AI that has remained on Earth for eons and was discovered by Dharma for exploration of science and commercial exploitation. I have faith that the writers have a much better take than that in store for us.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

wprager said:


> Actually the captions said that it was the Don McLean version, which was not recorded until 1973.


LOL!! 

Really? (I don't watch with captions on, unless I'm trying to decipher a mumbled line or something.)

That would, of course, be an error in the captions. Definitely the (original) Buddy Holly version.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

In a podcast the producers said they had a wall of characters broken into different catagories: dead, alive, hallucinations etc. Things like Kate's horse and Christian were some examples.

I beleive Christian is dead. But I believe Jacob needs a body in order to appear in a physical form...and I believe that the crash of 815 woke Jacob up and he's now using Christian to take on a physical form.

But we'll see how that pans out...


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

philw1776 said:


> I recall very knowlegeable posters here saying that the producers (years ago) said that Christian was dead. Admitedly, that could be a false memory.


They have stated unequivocally that once someone is dead, they're dead. However, the nature of death in the Lost universe is not always how we think of it in our universe.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> How long did Horus say he had been dead?


Not to nitpick, but his name was Horace I thought on his shirt.

I believe he said he has been dead 12 years.

Z


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> In a podcast the producers said they had a wall of characters broken into different catagories: dead, alive, hallucinations etc. Things like Kate's horse and Christian were some examples.


IIRC:


Spoiler



there where three categories, 'living', 'dead' and 'undead'; with the only people in the undead section being Christian, Yemi (Eko's brother) and Kate's horse. Of course, that podcast was before this episode...


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

jamesbobo said:


> Richard doesn't age. Makes me think that he, and many of the original others, are dead. Perhaps they are the crew of the Black Rock.


i thought richard was timewarping as well


Fish Man said:


> There are many possibilities why they might have not killed him. One possibility is that it wouldn't have done any good. Lots of "dead" people are having profound effects on the island anyway!
> 
> Another slightly different spin is that it was OK with "them" that he passed the test, but they did not want to reveal that to him at that time. They just wanted that information for themselves.
> 
> ...


ALSO....
if he failed, why did they try to recruit him in high school to Science Camp???



philw1776 said:


> Precisely. And it's why the "Bruce Lee" a.k.a. the Asian Guy from Sixteen Candles let Claire just walk off with her Dad. Just another night at the office for Ghostbusters.


he's not luc duc dong

wow.. this ep was a serious mindf#$%.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> I had the same thought, but:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001436/
> 
> Swoosie Kurtz is credited as Emily Annabeth Locke in "Deus Ex Machina."


And looking at the actress who played his biological mother in this episode, it was obvious to me that the marching orders to the casting agent were: "Get me an actress who looks like a teenage Swoosie Kurtz." IMHO, they did a reasonably good job of it.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

millewalkee said:


> Anyone have an idea what Keamy had strapped to his arm? It reminded me of an XM radio receiver.


Lostpedia: The device strapped to Keamy's arm appears to be a modified Korg MA-30 metronome. (A metronome is any device that produces a regulated: audible, visual or touch (any combination of the three) pulse, usually used to establish a steady tempo, measured in beats-per-minute (BPM) for the performance of musical compositions. It is an invaluable practice tool for musicians that goes back hundreds of years.)

screencap



Church AV Guy said:


> I think that Keamy had a dead-man-switch attached to himself, and it was to trigger an explosive on the boat.


That is definitely what he was implying that it was.. 'you don't want to do that.'


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> No one has yet mentioned that Horus was an Egyptian god.


That's probably because the character's name is Horace, like the Roman poet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

gchance said:


> Someone on another forum said it's a guitar tuner. I'm sure it's supposed to be something else in the context of the show, hehe.
> 
> Greg


That reminds me of last week's L&O:SVU guest starring Robin Williams.


Spoiler



He uses a remote to control a torture device. As soon as they showed it, I said "That's a garage door opener!" and thought it was laziness by the prop guys. Well, a few scenes later, he says he faked the device and mentions that it's just a garage door opener.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

sjgmoney said:


> As for Claire being dead, maybe that's why the Asian guy from the freighter was so interested in her. Remember Sawyer constant'y telling him about the ""restraining order"? We know he can talk to dead people.


I don't think so. That would mean he went from hearing dead people to seeing them. And let's not forget that Sawyer saw her too. He has no psychic abilities.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> In a podcast the producers said they had a wall of characters broken into different catagories: dead, alive, hallucinations etc. Things like Kate's horse and Christian were some examples.


I recall that as well. Gotta check which one mentioned that. The talked about the writer's room having photos af all the various characters and their connections to each other and status as to living or dead or otherwise. The horse was in a category with two others.



unicorngoddess said:


> I believe Christian is dead. But I believe Jacob needs a body in order to appear in a physical form...and I believe that the crash of 815 woke Jacob up and he's now using Christian to take on a physical form.


So Jacob is like Voldemort?


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> ALSO....
> if he failed, why did they try to recruit him in high school to Science Camp???


It's not so much that he failed, but that he wasn't ready yet. Maybe once he was in HS they thought that he was ready?


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

As for the 'need' for 815 to crash into the island, some people have speculated that the island needed John Locke. Why couldn't it be that Jacob needed Christian Shepard?  It seems he's ingratiated himself into the island's mystical heirarchy fairly quickly.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> LOL!!
> 
> Really? (I don't watch with captions on, unless I'm trying to decipher a mumbled line or something.)
> 
> That would, of course, be an error in the captions. Definitely the (original) Buddy Holly version.


I thought so too (that it was Holly) but since I didn't even know Don McLean recorded it I didn't want to presume. Are the captions provided by the producers or ABC?

Anyhow, funny story, I once paid money to go to an Air Supply concert, because Don McLean was supposed to be the opening act. McLean got laryngitis and was replaced by some busker from the metro (this was in Montreal). He sang American Pie (which was the reason for me going in the first place) but I had to endure 2 hours of "I'm All out of Love" and the like. And the kids of today think *they* have it tough. Humph!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

unicorngoddess said:


> In a podcast the producers said they had a wall of characters broken into different catagories: dead, alive, hallucinations etc. Things like Kate's horse and Christian were some examples.
> 
> I beleive Christian is dead. But I believe *Jacob needs a body in order to appear in a physical form.*..and I believe that the crash of 815 woke Jacob up and he's now using Christian to take on a physical form.
> 
> But we'll see how that pans out...


You mean like the Bug in Men in Black?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> They have stated unequivocally that once someone is dead, they're dead. However, the nature of death in the Lost universe is not always how we think of it in our universe.


Agreed, that is just one of the many intriguing mysteries of LOST.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> he's not luc duc dong
> wow.. this ep was a serious mindf#$%.


Yes, and he's also not Bruce Lee either. Sawyer nicknames, one of the show's features non-PC folk such as I, enjoy.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

wprager said:


> Are the captions provided by the producers or ABC?


I think captions are often based on scripts. I've seen many times where details in dialog has been changed in the onscreen dialog compared to the captions, and same with descriptions of soundtracks.


----------



## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

I am so lost in Lost. I haven't been watching the episodes twice like I did last year. I think I will spend the summer getting caught up. Starting with season 1.


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## ntron (Jul 17, 2003)

Anyone else think there is something going on with Locke and miracle survival

First there is him as a baby and the nurse makes a comment about how he is a miracle baby. Right then we see Mr. Ageless (Richard) checking out baby Locke.

The next time is when Locke is recovering after the accident, and Mathew Abaddon shows up and makes a comment about him surviving a 8 story fall and how that is unusual. He then pushes him on the walkabout, etc.

Then we have Ben, Hurley, and Locke at the mass grave and Ben make a comment about how pointless it was to shoot Locke (implying that had he been thinking more clearly he would have known it wouldnt have worked.)

Anybody else think that Locke cant die and that Richard and Mathew keep on the look out for miracle survivals to track down potential future important people to the Island? In other words, they dont know who the Island is protecting (like Michael) or who has traveled through time (and thus cant die because they must do xyz and havent done it yet) but look for people who survive miracle accidents as indicators that maybe they are part of the plan and then track them down and give them tests, etc.

There was also the scene the Keamy trying to kill Michael, but the gun jams, that kept that theme alive as well.


----------



## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

Favorite lines:

"Destiny is a fickle *****."
"Mallomars"


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

wprager said:


> You mean like the Bug in Men in Black?


Yeah...pretty much just like that. Jacob is a bug


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

ntron said:


> Anyone else think there is something going on with Locke and miracle survival
> 
> First there is him as a baby and the nurse makes a comment about how he is a miracle baby. Right then we see Mr. Ageless (Richard) checking out baby Locke.
> 
> ...


I took it in exactly the same way. The island is protecting Michael, and it appears the island is also protecting Locke, and has been for years. Remember that although Michael survived the suicide attempt, he was banged up pretty badly.

Greg


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I think captions are often based on scripts. I've seen many times where details in dialog has been changed in the onscreen dialog compared to the captions, and same with descriptions of soundtracks.


The captions for Lost are provided by neither the producers or ABC. They're provided by The Captioning Institute.

Our own "Trainman" used to work for the captioner that does the captions for Lost (and in fact, captioned some of the episodes himself).

IIRC, he reported in an early Lost thread that they do not receive any scripts for Lost, or if they do, they're very early drafts. The captions mostly come from what the captioners hear with their own ears.

They do an impressive job, but mistakes are occasionally made.

*Paging Trainman: Please correct any flaws in my memory about this subject!* 

And, BTW, that was most unquestionably Buddy Holly's version of the song.  Clear captioning error there.

Anyway, the scene was supposed to clearly be in the late 50's, and the song was obviously chosen to help establish the time period for the viewer. (Combining that with Emily Locke's 50's clothing, hairstyle, and other visual cues.) Not to mention the technology depicted in the hospital. E. g. 50's vintage incubator, etc.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

spikedavis said:


> The island has the ability to prevent Michael from being killed-it's not a stretch to believe that it brought Christian back.


Yeah, that does seem like a stretch to me--way different thing!

So kidney guy must be Locke's biological father--maybe he's part of the island natives group, but a renegade or something who spends his time in the world using his powers for EVIL.  So they were watching Locke from birth because they are keeping track of his father. Back to the Darth Vadar idea someone brought up last week.

If Abbadon was working for Widmore, why would they want Locke on the island? It seems like Ben's crew and Locke want to preserve the island as is, and Widmore wants to exploit it. So Widmore should know that Locke would only make his job harder. You'd think he would want to kill Locke (which probably isn't possible) or keep him away. Which brings up the question of if or by whom the crash and occupants of 815 were chosen. Maybe the only way the plane would crash on the island was if Locke was on it. 

It also seems likely that Jack is a pawn in all this, and his Dad is the one they wanted. But we've seen no indication that he's the kind of person the island would want, have we?

There was a real Jacob in the chair when Locke and Ben went in the first time, wasn't there? Someone we've never seen anywhere else? So where is he now?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> *Paging Trainman: Please correct any flaws in my memory about this subject!*


He explained that before... I can probably find a link to the posts...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

hefe said:


> He explained that before... I can probably find a link to the posts...


Here's one.

Ah, the "goth" or "gaunt" days...

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2756658&&#post2756658


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

verdugan said:


> It's not so much that he failed, but that he wasn't ready yet. Maybe once he was in HS they thought that he was ready?


i'm implying he didn't fail.


philw1776 said:


> Yes, and he's also not Bruce Lee either. Sawyer nicknames, one of the show's features non-PC folk such as I, enjoy.


oh... yeah... gotcha... /zoom


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> There was a real Jacob in the chair when Locke and Ben went in the first time, wasn't there? Someone we've never seen anywhere else? So where is he now?


We just saw a silhouette and people have been saying since seeing that that it looked like Christian.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

hefe said:


> Here's one.
> 
> Ah, the "goth" or "gaunt" days...
> 
> http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2756658&&#post2756658


Beauty.

hefe comes through again! :up:

Looks like my memory was pretty accurate too [pats self on back].

And anyway, the point I was trying to make is that captions are not without errors. (Occasionally in these TV show discussion threads, we get someone trying to claim that they're gospel when a debate about a line of dialog occurs.)


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> There was a real Jacob in the chair when Locke and Ben went in the first time, wasn't there? Someone we've never seen anywhere else? So where is he now?





unicorngoddess said:


> We just saw a silhouette and people have been saying since seeing that that it looked like Christian.


I actually thought that shot of Jacob looked exactly like Locke with long greasy hair.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Just a thought, something I've been mulling over:

The episode ended with Locke declaring, "we're going to move the island".

This got me thinking.

Clearly there's some "warp of the space-time-continuum" surrounding the island. Weird things happen with time and space becoming non-linear going to and from the island.

Some people, Widmore for one, have figured out how to navigate through the "time/space warp" and find the island.

What Locke might be referring to is there may be a device on the island that generates this "time/space warp". It may be that Christian told Locke how to "re-calibrate" the device to change the characteristics of the warp. This would effectively "move the island" from the perspective of the outside world.

The warp changes; the island appears to be in a different place (and time).

Just a thought...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Emily's mother said that the guy she was seeing was twice her age. So if she was 16, he was 32. Did Locke's father look 32 years older than him? Actually I thought they looked about the same age. So is he another ageless guy? 

The doctor's body washed up before Jack's surgery. Now he's recovering and it just happened. That's a big difference in time. So when Lapidus threw out the bag, was that in real time for both them and the chopper? What about the difference between when Sayid left the ship and the chopper left the ship? When Locke said they were going to move the island, my first thought was,"in space or in time?" 

I wonder if Penny is really coming for Desmond. I hope she's bringing reinforcements.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> If Abbadon was working for Widmore, why would they want Locke on the island? It seems like Ben's crew and Locke want to preserve the island as is, and Widmore wants to exploit it. So Widmore should know that Locke would only make his job harder. You'd think he would want to kill Locke (which probably isn't possible) or keep him away. Which brings up the question of if or by whom the crash and occupants of 815 were chosen. Maybe the only way the plane would crash on the island was if Locke was on it.


One thought is that having John control the island means that Ben is not. And that may be a positive move for Widmore in this game. Kind of like "King Me"!

Another thought. If Keamy is already on the island, what good will moving it do?


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

teknikel said:


> Another thought. If Keamy is already on the island, what good will moving it do?


To prevent them from leaving-they'll be stranded on the island-(if they aren't killed, which is the optimal solution) and to prevent Widmore from ever finding it again.


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

Locke met Richard on the island, correct? Richard gave Locke the Sawyer file. Given that he looks exactly the same, it's a shame Locke didn't recognize the weird man from the special school. i know, 30+ years... but i would think something like that would stick with you for a while.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Church AV Guy said:


> I think that Keamy had a dead-man-switch attached to himself, and it was to trigger an explosive on the boat.


That was my take as well. There's a pretty significant artery in the armpit (the axillary, I think--it's one of the pressure points you learn when learning about stopping bleeding in first aid) so that might explain the positioning. I'd imagine there are better sensors to use for that sort of thing, but I still thought "dead-man switch" when he warned off the Captain.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)




----------



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> Was it obvious to others, but it just hit me.
> 
> At first I thought the Doctor on the boat was a fake, but the one the found on the shore dead WAS that Doctor and it was in the future. So when Keamey killed the Doctor and tossed him overboard to be washed up on shore a few days before


I think that Locke moving the island affects when the Doctor washes ashore. They shift the the island into a different time dimension, thus hiding it from the outside, but the dead doctor is in real time, so he washes up onto the island which is hidden in the past. So in island time, it is before he was even killed.

Basically, the island is a standalone entity that can hide in different time slots......but everything outside the island (including the water surrounding the island) is current time......

My viewpoint anyway.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> What Locke might be referring to is there may be a device on the island that generates this "time/space warp". It may be that Christian told Locke how to "re-calibrate" the device to change the characteristics of the warp. This would effectively "move the island" from the perspective of the outside world.
> 
> The warp changes; the island appears to be in a different place (and time).
> 
> Just a thought...


Or it's a cloaking device.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow. Just, wow.

I opened this thread earlier today at work to read the first few posts... and couldn't wait to see the ep when the first posts were WOW! I AGREE! and !!!!!!!!!


----------



## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

Was the Lab called Mittelos Labs?

Mittleos = Lost Time/Time Lost

Could this be another weird thing the writers put in like they did with the judge's name and the name of the funeral home?

What a great episode. Next week looks promising as well.

deb


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

So, for the dead Doc to wash up on shore, his body had to travel along a very specific bearing ...

Hmmm ....


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I think that if that were the case, they wouldve killed young John. They certainly don't seem to be above staging an accident to get rid of someone who might do them (or the island) harm in the future.


If this is a smeek I apologize. They knew the island wouldn't let them kill him.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

debtoine said:


> Was the Lab called Mittelos Labs?
> 
> Mittleos = Lost Time/Time Lost
> 
> ...


The producers acknowledged the anagram in their podcast back when it was first used. Back when Juliet was interviewing with Mittelos and met Alpert and Ethan.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

There was also the scene when Locke's teacher was encouraging him to become a "man of science." It was good sort of "aha" moment. Locke is so gung ho resistant against science and yet it seems like it was part of his "destiny" at some point. 

He could have easily become Jack. Maybe he sees some of himself (past self) in Jack, which is why he doesn't agree with him all the time. Or any time?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

betts4 said:


> There was also the scene when Locke's teacher was encouraging him to become a "man of science." It was good sort of "aha" moment. Locke is so gung ho resistant against science and yet it seems like it was part of his "destiny" at some point.
> 
> *He could have easily become Jack.* Maybe he sees some of himself (past self) in Jack, which is why he doesn't agree with him all the time. Or any time?


I shudder to think of that. I'm a science guy myself but I always liked Locke and always barely tolerated Jack, wanting him dead the 1st seasons. Don't like him pawing my Kate all over either. As many of you have said, that was a great flashback series to Locke's origins and youth.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

philw1776 said:


> I shudder to think of that. I'm a science guy myself but I always liked Locke and always barely tolerated Jack, wanting him dead the 1st seasons. Don't like him pawing my Kate all over either. As many of you have said, that was a great flashback series to Locke's origins and youth.


I have always liked Locke more than any other character and really didn't like Jack much. I wasn't awake when I typed that, but it was more a 'could have been more the natural leader type' that Jack is. He tried to fit in during high school and it didn't seem to work.

Did they ever tell us what led him from high school to toy store sales person?

edit- well I really like Sawyer's sexy bod, but that's different.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I've speculated before that crossing the barrier to/from makes quantum time jumps possibly of unpredictable but usually small duration. When Locke likely 'moves' the Island he'll somehow activate the capability to translate elsewhere and possibly elsewhen by a bit. Not sure there. The Island shields itself from all electromagnetic radiation. Light as a high frequency EM wave is also distorted making spysats ineffective. (We can in the lab today make some objects 'invisible by bending the light from behind them around them and masking the object). Only Desmond's key made the Island briefly unshielded or transmitting.

Once the Island is moved by Locke, Jack and the remaining O6 won't be able to find it. Nor will evil robber baron Chuck Widmore. 

As I see this series finally playing out, there is hope that Jack & Co. may eventually be able to 'get back', because I'll bet that Ben knows how to do so. I have a feeling that whether or not Jack et. al. do successfully return will be left ambiguous in the final series episode, pissing folks off.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I have always liked Locke more than any other character and really didn't like Jack much. I wasn't awake when I typed that, but it was more a 'could have been more the natural leader type' that Jack is. He tried to fit in during high school and it didn't seem to work.
> 
> Did they ever tell us what led him from high school to toy store sales person?
> 
> edit- well I really like Sawyer's sexy bod, but that's different.


It's disgusting the way we men allow our bodies to be exploited for gratuitous purposes.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

Any chance that shifting the island in time would somehow affect its location based on the rotation of the Earth on its axis? I'm not much of a science guy but it seems like there could be something to that if whoever is looking for the island is monitoring from some fixed omniscient position. Maybe even a satellite that doesn't orbit or something weirder.

Basically think of it like looking at the moon. Imagine you were on day one of the lunar month and see a new moon (hollow). In an instant you shift to day 15 of the lunar month and all of a sudden it is full now. I know this only has bearing on how to moon orbits the Earth, but maybe there is a tie here somehow?


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

scheckeNYK said:


> Any chance that shifting the island in time would somehow affect its location based on the rotation of the Earth on its axis? I'm not much of a science guy ........


Hey! I wonder if that's where Locke's 'science' aptitude will come in. Combining faith and science...hmmm....


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

betts4 said:


> Hey! I wonder if that's where Locke's 'science' aptitude will come in. Combining faith and science...hmmm....


It seemed to me that Locke's science education didn't go past high school. I don't think high school science in 1973 would've taught him much about quantum physics as we know it today. Plus, he resisted science since his earliest days. If anything, he'll probably rely on whatever comes to him naturally, as if pre-destined. And that would tie in with his faith.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

getreal said:


> So, for the dead Doc to wash up on shore, his body had to travel along a very specific bearing ...
> 
> Hmmm ....


I think the very specific bearing is to minimize the time distortion. I believe going across the barrier can cause random time shifts depending on the bearing, and that's why the doctor showed up days before he was killed.

Somehow the radio/phone is not affected, either because it shoots over the barrier, or because it it shoots through the "right hole". Possibly the phones are specially tuned to only talk to signals from their own time period???


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Moving the island - I'll throw this out here.

Do we know for sure whether we've finally passed Dec 26, 2005? The date of the Indonesia earthquake?

I know there's been speculation that some real life event would affect the island, and people have suspected the earthquake. We've wondered how an Indian Ocean earthquake might effect an island in the Pacific. I suspected it would hide the 815 wreckage for good, but maybe the moving of the island causes the quake?


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

danplaysbass said:


> Desmond said he was never going to set his feet on the island again but he isn't one of the O6 so I wonder how his story will play out.


He's also still supposed to see Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter to lead the island, though maybe that was averted.



getreal said:


> So, for the dead Doc to wash up on shore, his body had to travel along a very specific bearing ...


I think if you miss the bearing, you run the risk of odd things happening, like arriving before you left, for instance.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

gchance said:


> Also nobody's mentioned that Teenage Locke is a fan of Geronimo Jackson and has a poster of them in his locker at school.
> 
> Greg


Who's the guy above the poster?


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> Who's the guy above the poster?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/burton_sir_richard.shtml


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> He's also still supposed to see Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter to lead the island, though maybe that was averted.


It's not as if Desmond's visions have all come true the way he saw them. He saw Charlie die a few times before it really happened.


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

Alpinemaps said:


> It's not as if Desmond's visions have all come true the way he saw them. He saw Charlie die a few times before it really happened.


and charlie would have died like he did in those visions if desmond didn't intervene..


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

robbhimself said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/burton_sir_richard.shtml


Wasn't he married to Liz Taylor?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> We already know who Locke's dad is ... the guy who conned him out of his kidney and was eventually murdered by James (Sawyer).


Didn't we originally think it was Locke's bio-dad, but then later that was called into question when we found out he was just a con-man? Have we ever had any solid confirmation that he was actually his biological father? Because if so, he'd have to be about 75 at this point.


bruinfan said:


> ALSO....
> if he failed, why did they try to recruit him in high school to Science Camp???


I think it was already stated, but it wasn't like Richard was trying to determine if Locke was "the One" when he gave him that test. There was no question about that. He was just trying to determine if Locke was ready, and Locke showed that he wasn't. His next chance to show that he was ready was when he was invited to the science camp, and again he wasn't ready. Ultimately, it required him becoming crippled and then healed on the island for him to be truly ready to face his destiny.


unicorngoddess said:


> We just saw a silhouette and people have been saying since seeing that that it looked like Christian.


It was most definitely Christian in the cabin earlier in the season when Hurley saw him. This episode confirmed that.

I didn't see anyone mention this, but I think Matthew Abaddon is Jacob. When Locke asked him why he was just an orderly, he said something like, "I'm much more than just an orderly, and you'll realize that the next time we meet." I was fully expecting it to be Abaddon sitting in the chair in the cabin, but I still think it will be him that's directing Christian.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I didn't see anyone mention this, but I think Matthew Abaddon is Jacob. When Locke asked him why he was just an orderly, he said something like, "I'm much more than just an orderly, and you'll realize that the next time we meet." I was fully expecting it to be Abaddon sitting in the chair in the cabin, but I still think it will be him that's directing Christian.


If so, he's gonna be somewhat pissed at Locke for tossin' a knife into the back of his security girl Naomi. 
Shoulda known that the kid always had a penchant for knives.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Didn't we originally think it was Locke's bio-dad, but then later that was called into question when we found out he was just a con-man? Have we ever had any solid confirmation that he was actually his biological father? Because if so, he'd have to be about 75 at this point.


Watching the episode I surmised that Richard or somesuch coulda fathered Locke but upon reading this forum I realized that the episode about Locke, his con-man 'dad' and the kidney was one of two LOSTs that I never saw. I'm confused.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I didn't see anyone mention this, but I think Matthew Abaddon is Jacob. When Locke asked him why he was just an orderly, he said something like, "I'm much more than just an orderly, and you'll realize that the next time we meet." I was fully expecting it to be Abaddon sitting in the chair in the cabin, but I still think it will be him that's directing Christian.


Check out post 15.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Am I remembering wrong--I thought when Ben and Locke first visited Jacob in the cabin and he said, "help me" to Locke that they showed an unclear image of an old man who wasn't Christian and wasn't black. 

I assumed that since the con-man hunted up Locke and since Locke's mother said he was his father and since then his kidney was a match he must be his biological father. Also Ben made a big deal about Locke killing "his father." What was that about if they knew he was just a random stranger who happened to be a match for a kidney?

Since Ben is all resigned to losing his leadership role, why doesn't he just answer a few questions and tell Locke everything he knows?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

When Horace was chopping down the trees, did anyone else get a vibe about Kirk chopping firewood in ST: Generations?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

wprager said:


> When Horace was chopping down the trees, did anyone else get a vibe about Kirk chopping firewood in ST: Generations?


No, but then I'd never watched that show, so maybe that's the reason.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

wprager said:


> We know that Christian is dead, so I'm probably not alone in thinking that Claire is also.


My wife thinks it's possible that Christian is not dead. Her point was that if someone could fake the crash of a whole plane, then they could've faked his death as well.



Rosincrans said:


> I think the very specific bearing is to minimize the time distortion. I believe going across the barrier can cause random time shifts depending on the bearing, and that's why the doctor showed up days before he was killed.
> 
> Somehow the radio/phone is not affected, either because it shoots over the barrier, or because it it shoots through the "right hole". Possibly the phones are specially tuned to only talk to signals from their own time period???


This is what I was thinking as well. Without following the right heading, the doctor was essentially in two places at once for certain period of time. Which led me to thinking that when Oceanic 815 crashed, it most likely didn't approach using the correct heading either...

The phones may work because maybe the barrier only affect matter?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> When Horace was chopping down the trees, did anyone else get a vibe about Kirk chopping firewood in ST: Generations?


No, but there was something weird about the scene. It wasn't like any of the visions we've seen in the past on the show. It was almost like a loop, things were repeating. Horace cut down the same tree three or four times, and he greeted Locke at least three times.

It struck me as perhaps computer generated or taped, similar to Rousseau's looped message.

Greg


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

wprager said:


> When Horace was chopping down the trees, did anyone else get a vibe about Kirk chopping firewood in ST: Generations?





philw1776 said:


> No, but then I'd never watched that show, so maybe that's the reason.


Not that it really matters, but Star Trek: Generations was a movie, not part of one of the TV shows.

Z


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> My wife thinks it's possible that Christian is not dead. Her point was that if someone could fake the crash of a whole plane, then they could've faked his death as well.


Interesting idea, but didn't Jack actually see the body before he transported it?



zordude said:


> Not that it really matters, but Star Trek: Generations was a movie, not part of one of the TV shows.


Barely!


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> Interesting idea, but didn't Jack actually see the body before he transported it?


I think he did. She was thinking along the lines of some drug that would make him seem dead temporarily. It may not be too hard to pull off, especially if Christian was in on it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> No, but then I'd never watched that show, so maybe that's the reason.


Not show, it was one of the movies (an "odd-numbered" one). Kirk ends up in The Nexus, an idyllic place where you, essentially, end up reliving the best day of your life. Not *exactly* like the Island, but there are some vague parallels.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> My wife thinks it's possible that Christian is not dead. Her point was that if someone could fake the crash of a whole plane, then they could've faked his death as well.


You have a smart wife!

Interesting theory. I had not thought of that. It's intriguing.

Also, I doubt that Jack ever had the opportunity to carefully examine his dad's "body". Pulling off this fake, and convincing Jack, would be child's play compared to the fake plane crash.

This would also explain Jack's finding his dad's coffin empty in that episode early in the first season.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

What motive would Christian have in going along with the gag as it were and appearing and disappearing to Jack.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> I think he did. She was thinking along the lines of some drug that would make him seem dead temporarily. It may not be too hard to pull off, especially if Christian was in on it.


Hmmmm. A drug like the spider venom that 'suspended' Nikki and Paolo such that the Beach Losties thought they were dead and buried them?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

wprager said:


> When little John was asked to pick things that belonged to him, why did he pick the knife, and why was that the wrong answer? At first I thought the kid just picked it because he wanted it; but now I'm thinking it could be something else.


I haven't read this thread and this is one of the first posts. I wanted to respond to say that John KNEW what the right answer was. He deliberately didn't choose it. The man testing him probably suspected that as well since he said Locke wasn't ready, not that he wasn't qualified to go to the school. (The comic book was probably the right answer. That's the same one Walt was reading).

Same thing with the science camp (that was probably being run by the Dharma Initiative). John has been fighting against his destiny his whole life. He was a miracle from the moment he was born. A child born that premature shouldn't have been able to survive at that time, but he did. Because the island and whatever destiny it serves, wanted him to. At some point, he could no longer fight. That's when he tried to do his walkabout and wound up where he was supposed to be, on the island.

Ben is no longer the keeper of the island. The torch as been passed to Locke. It is interesting that Ben recognized it. Finally. He had been trying to deny it when he was shocked that John could hear Jacob. He was trying to deny it when he shot Locke. When Locke was healed by the island, he could no longer deny it.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

mightyb said:


> I wonder if the statue "crumbled" because the island has been moved before...
> 
> and I 100% agree with Aaron being the "next chosen one".


Aaron might be A chosen one. I don't think he is the next one. I think Walt is. Remember, Walt has special gifts, too. He also had the comic book that the testing guy had. Although Michael was trying to spirit him away from his destiny. At some point, maybe he will no longer be able to deny it either.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that Claire is dead. We've seen many different manifestations of dead characters in the show. Some appear only in dreams, some appear to be hallucinations and we're just not sure. I think from what we've seen of Christian he's in a category by himself.


I agree with this but not for the same reason. Since there is a lot going on with changes in time and space, I think they both died but the people we are seeing are alive. They are just from a different point in the timeline. They are calm because they already know what is going to happen. It is also possible that they are ghosts but I wanted to throw that out there.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Just a thought, something I've been mulling over:
> 
> The episode ended with Locke declaring, "we're going to move the island".
> 
> ...


This would be my interpretation for moving the island as well.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> The phones may work because maybe the barrier only affect matter?


My theory is that the phone works fine because radio signals travel at the speed of light.
The signals are moving too fast to be radically affected by the time dilation.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> My theory is that the phone works fine because radio signals travel at the speed of light.
> The signals are moving too fast to be radically affected by the time dilation.


But they did need to get a signal from Naomi first to be able to connect. It's like the island needs to transmit before the signal can be established.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

JYoung said:


> My theory is that the phone works fine because radio signals travel at the speed of light.
> The signals are moving too fast to be radically affected by the time dilation.


But if the phone signals weren't affected, wouldn't each end of the conversation be in the same time frame? Clearly the people talking aren't, because the doctor washed up on the shore before he was killed on the boat.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

Peter000 said:


> But if the phone signals weren't affected, wouldn't each end of the conversation be in the same time frame? Clearly the people talking aren't, because the doctor washed up on the shore before he was killed on the boat.


It's all in how you look at it. Let's say the boat and the island are in the same time frame. The doctor gets killed, floats across the barrier and the body goes back in time 2 days. (No idea what the real differential was) That's how it could wash ashore but the doctor also still be alive on the boat at the same time.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Weird that John said to Hurley that the Dharma people on the island MADE the ranch dressing. I always thought that the food came from the outside and said Dharma on it because it was made for them, not by them. Maybe the food drop was just a pretense for the guys in that station so they would think they were alone on the island. Actually the food was made in the village with maybe some brought in by submarine and the plane that dropped it off was just coming from across the island. Of course we never saw any sign of a plane anywhere, did we?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Aaron might be A chosen one. I don't think he is the next one. I think Walt is. Remember, Walt has special gifts, too. He also had the comic book that the testing guy had. Although Michael was trying to spirit him away from his destiny. At some point, maybe he will no longer be able to deny it either.


Maybe. I think you stated the original writers' plan but the little kid playing Walt grew up so fast in the intervening years that he now towers over other actors and perhaps the writers have re-written Walt's role to be minimal. Remember supposedly only months not years have passed.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> Maybe. I think you stated the original writers' plan but the little kid playing Walt grew up so fast in the intervening years that he now towers over other actors and perhaps the writers have re-written Walt's role to be minimal. Remember supposedly only months not years have passed.


True. But with the time jumpy thing that seems to be going on, they could pick up Walt as a "future" Walt.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> But they did need to get a signal from Naomi first to be able to connect. It's like the island needs to transmit before the signal can be established.


I don't remember this. I remember that they couldn't connect until Charlie disabled the Pearl Station (the underwater one). And I remember that Naomi was the only one who knew how to work/fix the phone. But I don't remember any additional requirements, like Naomi had to signal first.



stellie93 said:


> Weird that John said to Hurley that the Dharma people on the island MADE the ranch dressing.


I think you're over-analyzing that sentence. I think John just meant that Dharma, the group, made the dressing. He included the people working for Dharma OFF the island, who were delivering food to the Dharma people ON the island.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

madscientist said:


> I don't remember this. I remember that they couldn't connect until Charlie disabled the Pearl Station (the underwater one). And I remember that Naomi was the only one who knew how to work/fix the phone. But I don't remember any additional requirements, like Naomi had to signal first.


Even after Charlie disabled the station, they didn't seem to know where she was until she transmitted to them.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Via AVS Forum...here's a site that shows where in Hawaii the scenes in LOST were filmed, including the scenes in the desert & Iraq!

http://lostvirtualtour.com/


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> But they did need to get a signal from Naomi first to be able to connect. It's like the island needs to transmit before the signal can be established.


Huh?
The numbers signal was transmitting to the outside for years before Rouseau changed it.
And Naomi couldn't connect because of the jamming signal from the Looking Glass station.


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## jgerry (Aug 29, 2001)

scheckeNYK said:


> Any chance that shifting the island in time would somehow affect its location based on the rotation of the Earth on its axis? I'm not much of a science guy but it seems like there could be something to that if whoever is looking for the island is monitoring from some fixed omniscient position. Maybe even a satellite that doesn't orbit or something weirder.


Everything on Earth is constantly moving. Not just because of the Earth's rotation, but because the Earth itself is hurtling through space, orbiting the sun, and moving at over 100,000 km per hour.

This is the stuff about time travel that seems to be left out by most fictional accounts. If an entity exists on Earth at a specific point in time, and you simply shift the time that it exists at that point, then the Earth is no longer there -- either in the future or past. The Earth has moved along it's orbital and rotational paths while the entity supposedly just shifts in time. And since the Earth moves so quickly, if the entity were moved even a couple of seconds into the past, it would end up sitting out in empty space. For time travel on Earth to be possible and useful, it would have to be able to move entities not only in time, but position as well.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

jgerry said:


> Everything on Earth is constantly moving. Not just because of the Earth's rotation, but because the Earth itself is hurtling through space, orbiting the sun, and moving at over 100,000 km per hour.
> 
> This is the stuff about time travel that seems to be left out by most fictional accounts. If an entity exists on Earth at a specific point in time, and you simply shift the time that it exists at that point, then the Earth is no longer there -- either in the future or past. The Earth has moved along it's orbital and rotational paths while the entity supposedly just shifts in time. And since the Earth moves so quickly, if the entity were moved even a couple of seconds into the past, it would end up sitting out in empty space. For time travel on Earth to be possible and useful, it would have to be able to move entities not only in time, but position as well.


I give you the TARDIS (time and relative dimension in space).


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The freighter was sitting right there when Naomi's chopper went down. If they didn't need her signal first, why didn't they send the next chopper in right away to try to rescue her? They couldn't find the island until someone from there called them.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> You have a smart wife!
> 
> Interesting theory. I had not thought of that. It's intriguing.
> 
> ...





betts4 said:


> What motive would Christian have in going along with the gag as it were and appearing and disappearing to Jack.


Her theory is that Christian had been on the island before, and that his alcoholism was related to that and wanting to get back to it (much like the state we see Jack in in the "future"). Perhaps his trip to Australia was an attempt to find the island again. She even brought up the fact that he may have fathered Claire while on the island long ago. I'm not sure if there's anything to the theory, but it is interesting to think about.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Even after Charlie disabled the station, they didn't seem to know where she was until she transmitted to them.


Well, not knowing where she was is not the same thing as not being able to make a connection. They also couldn't get through because Russeau's transmission was too powerful. They transmitted to the freighter just moments after they disabled the recording so maybe the freighter didn't have time to contact them first. All I'm saying is I don't think we've seen anything that shows that it's impossible to contact the island from off the island (that you have to be contacted by someone on the island first).



stellie93 said:


> The freighter was sitting right there when Naomi's chopper went down. If they didn't need her signal first, why didn't they send the next chopper in right away to try to rescue her? They couldn't find the island until someone from there called them.


Err... what next chopper? I've only ever seen one. How many would a freighter like that hold anyway? Besides, if you send your helicopter out over a mysterious island and it doesn't come back, I'm not so sure I'd send the next one out just to see if it does any better... even if I had one


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

philw1776 said:


> Maybe. I think you stated the original writers' plan but the little kid playing Walt grew up so fast in the intervening years that he now towers over other actors and perhaps the writers have re-written Walt's role to be minimal. Remember supposedly only months not years have passed.


Is there official word from the writers/producers that they started with one plan for Walt and had to change it because he grew?

I have enough time invested in this show that I really want a good payoff. A good payoff is less likely if the writers are fools. And they would have to be fools to have their original plot line depend on an 11-year-old actor not growing appreciably over the next few years.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

madscientist said:


> ...Err... what next chopper? I've only ever seen one. How many would a freighter like that hold anyway? Besides, if you send your helicopter out over a mysterious island and it doesn't come back, I'm not so sure I'd send the next one out just to see if it does any better... even if I had one


Yes, we've only "seen" one; Naomi's went down (we assume), but we never "saw" it. Then the "next one" is the one they've been using back and forth to the island, isn't it (which we have actually seen both on the island and on the freighter)? Maybe the freighter only had two?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I think that Richard and Ben both serve the island, but in different ways. By opposing each other, they bring balance.

I think Locke and Walt are their successors.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Yes, we've only "seen" one; Naomi's went down (we assume), but we never "saw" it. Then the "next one" is the one they've been using back and forth to the island, isn't it (which we have actually seen both on the island and on the freighter)? Maybe the freighter only had two?


Ooops. You're right. I (mis-)remembered that Lapidus managed to land the chopper after Naomi bailed. But now I realize that he brought the "new" freighties, not Naomi's team, and managed to land that chopper. So maybe there were two. Do we know for sure that the first one crashed?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

madscientist said:


> Ooops. You're right. I (mis-)remembered that Lapidus managed to land the chopper after Naomi bailed. But now I realize that he brought the "new" freighties, not Naomi's team, and managed to land that chopper. So maybe there were two. Do we know for sure that the first one crashed?


I think I remember an argument between Naomi and Frank about Naomi piloting the first run and going in solo.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Didn't we originally think it was Locke's bio-dad, but then later that was called into question when we found out he was just a con-man? Have we ever had any solid confirmation that he was actually his biological father? Because if so, he'd have to be about 75 at this point.


If the fact that their kidneys were compatible isn't solid confirmation, then I don't know what would be. The actor who plays him is in his mid 60's, so not too far off. Although he and Swoosie Kurtz were actually born in the same year.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> If the fact that their kidneys were compatible isn't solid confirmation, then I don't know what would be. The actor who plays him is in his mid 60's, so not too far off. Although he and Swoosie Kurtz were actually born in the same year.


Well, being a kidney donor myself, I know very well that compatible kidneys don't have to come from immediate family members. The chances of compatibility definitely increase, but it's not required. There's no reason why Cooper, being the thorough con man that he is, couldn't have done some research and found someone who would be compatible to be his mark.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Well, being a kidney donor myself, I know very well that compatible kidneys don't have to come from immediate family members. The chances of compatibility definitely increase, but it's not required. There's no reason why Cooper, being the thorough con man that he is, couldn't have done some research and found someone who would be compatible to be his mark.


Assuming Anthony Cooper is a normal real-life-type con-man, and not a con man with Benjamin Linus-type resources, what kind of research could he have done that would turn up that kind of information? If John Locke is not on a kidney donor list, what kind of information is available that could tell Anthony Cooper whether John's kidney is compatible with him?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Assuming Anthony Cooper is a normal real-life-type con-man, and not a con man with Benjamin Linus-type resources, what kind of research could he have done that would turn up that kind of information? If John Locke is not on a kidney donor list, what kind of information is available that could tell Anthony Cooper whether John's kidney is compatible with him?


Obviously Locke would have had to given blood at some point for Cooper to find out about him, so it just means that Cooper would have had access to people's blood samples. Sure, it's not something that people normally have access to, but it's possible.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Well, being a kidney donor myself, I know very well that compatible kidneys don't have to come from immediate family members. The chances of compatibility definitely increase, but it's not required. There's no reason why Cooper, being the thorough con man that he is, couldn't have done some research and found someone who would be compatible to be his mark.


Yeah, I'm aware that it doesn't have to be from a relative. And I would guess that even knowing they were father and son, they'd still have to run some tests to be sure they were compatible. But I can't imagine what type of "research" he could do to get that kind of information. Primarily, I just don't see why anyone would call their relationship into question. Given the entire context of the show and that story line, what would lead anyone to think that he might not be Locke's biological father? Given that we don't have any more solid confirmation about any of the other paternal relationships on the show, I think this one would be the LEAST likely to call into question, other than a few (or maybe just one) obvious examples, such as Jin.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

Maybe a smeek. I've read 4 pages so far, so I hope I'm safe.

Anyway...

That knife IS Locke's. It's the same knife he's always carrying around the island, to cut melons, or rope. If someone can grab two closeups, I'm sure you'll see it's the same knife he has as an adult, as the one Richard shows him as a child.

So for me, anyway, that meant Locke chose right, and it scared off Richard for some reason.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stiffi said:


> Maybe a smeek. I've read 4 pages so far, so I hope I'm safe.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> ...


It may be the same knife, but I don't think that Locke (ignoring some sort of reincarnation theme) had ever seen those objects before. I don't think Richard was talking about "things that belong to Locke" in the sense we ordinarily think of it.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Locke brought a LOT of knives with him to the island. A whole suitcase. (more than he needed for a walkabout IMO) I think his picking up the knife as a child was a sign of that. The knife he picked up then looked a lot older style than any he has on the island now, but maybe he found one, some screen caps would be help.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

stiffi said:


> That knife IS Locke's. It's the same knife he's always carrying around the island, to cut melons, or rope. If someone can grab two closeups, I'm sure you'll see it's the same knife he has as an adult, as the one Richard shows him as a child.


It's not the same knife. Here's a screenshot of the knife John as a boy chose.

It is small, flimsy and poorly crafted relative to the other knives Locke has been shown with. Here's a look at John's knife collection.

Here's an article on 'knife' at lostpedia; it has numerous screenshots of the various knives used throughout the show (including Locke cutting fruit). None of them look like the knife Richard Alpert put in front of young John. It would be neat if there was such a reference, please share it if you find one.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

latrobe7 said:


> It's not the same knife. Here's a screenshot of the knife John as a boy chose.
> 
> It is small, flimsy and poorly crafted relative to the other knives Locke has been shown with. Here's a look at John's knife collection.
> 
> Here's an article on 'knife' at lostpedia; it has numerous screenshots of the various knives used throughout the show (including Locke cutting fruit). None of them look like the knife Richard Alpert put in front of young John. It would be neat if there was such a reference, please share it if you find one.


Wow I stand corrected. I was so sure too. It's funny how your mind shows you what you want to see sometimes 

BTW, WTF is up with that whole page devoted to LOST knives? I thought I spend a lot of time thinking up crazy theories, jeez!


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

That's exactly what I thought Richard was asking -- "Which of these things belong to you now?" I thought he was testing Locke to see if he had time-traveled and/or how far into the future he'd been. When Locke picked up the knife, Richard knew that Locke had been to the island.


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## ChrisNJ (Mar 7, 2007)

wprager said:


> When Horace was chopping down the trees, did anyone else get a vibe about Kirk chopping firewood in ST: Generations?


I got a weird "Twin Peaks" vibe from that scene.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

stiffi said:


> BTW, WTF is up with that whole page devoted to LOST knives? I thought I spend a lot of time thinking up crazy theories, jeez!


That's just the tip of the iceberg - there's someone who transcribes every episode and every podcast for that site! I appreciate the resource for easy searching; but yeah, I wonder what they do for jobs (or what class their cutting ).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Yeah, I'm aware that it doesn't have to be from a relative. And I would guess that even knowing they were father and son, they'd still have to run some tests to be sure they were compatible. But I can't imagine what type of "research" he could do to get that kind of information. Primarily, I just don't see why anyone would call their relationship into question. Given the entire context of the show and that story line, what would lead anyone to think that he might not be Locke's biological father? Given that we don't have any more solid confirmation about any of the other paternal relationships on the show, I think this one would be the LEAST likely to call into question, other than a few (or maybe just one) obvious examples, such as Jin.


I guess I'm not really calling it into question. I was thinking that the show did that for us once we found out that getting the kidney was all just a con. If nobody else remembers that or got that from the show, I guess it was just me and I was wrong.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

aindik said:


> Assuming Anthony Cooper is a normal real-life-type con-man, and not a con man with Benjamin Linus-type resources, what kind of research could he have done that would turn up that kind of information? If John Locke is not on a kidney donor list, what kind of information is available that could tell Anthony Cooper whether John's kidney is compatible with him?


Precisely.

Even if Anthony Cooper had Benjamin Linus / Widmore type resources, there's no reason that the biological / genetic information to tell whether Locke would be a likely match or not would exist anywhere so that a person with such resources could obtain it. It's extraordinarily unlikely that, unless Locke had considered donating a kidney before Cooper contacted him, any compatibility tests for his kidneys would have ever been done and generated the necessary information.

No: The only likely sequence of events is:


Anthony Cooper, con man extrordinare, needs a kidney.
Cooper knows he has a son out there and that transplant compatibility is far more likely from a close relative.
Cooper tracks down that son and uses his con man talents to woo the son into thinking he wants to reestablish a relationship. (From this point on, the sequence was shown to us via flashbacks.)
Tricks son into offering to donate a kidney, if compatible.
Turns out he is compatible, son donates kidney.
Gets kidney, Cooper drops son like he had the plague.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I guess I'm not really calling it into question. I was thinking that the show did that for us once we found out that getting the kidney was all just a con. If nobody else remembers that or got that from the show, I guess it was just me and I was wrong.


Are you suggesting that the goal of the con was something other than getting the kidney? IOW, are you saying that Anthony Cooper didn't actually need a kidney? If so, what was the goal of the con? It's not like Locke had any money for Cooper to take.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I guess I'm not really calling it into question. I was thinking that the show did that for us once we found out that getting the kidney was all just a con. If nobody else remembers that or got that from the show, I guess it was just me and I was wrong.


I think Cooper being his bio father is what really pours salt in the wound (so to speak).

If someone with no connection to you fakes a relationship so he can get your kidney, that hurts in a lot of ways. But your own father faking that he cares about you so he can get your kidney, that takes the hurt to a whole other level.

It's part of what makes Locke's story so heart-wrenching. And frustrating when he goes back to Cooper, who then tries to kill him, and he dismisses Helen, who really did care about him, in the process.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I guess I'm not really calling it into question. I was thinking that the show did that for us once we found out that getting the kidney was all just a con. If nobody else remembers that or got that from the show, I guess it was just me and I was wrong.


Maybe your perspective being a kidney donor yourself had something to do with your interpretation? It's not like there wasn't a perfectly clear purpose to the revelation that he was a con man: the fact that he had used Locke and didn't actually care for him. Well, and eventually the connection to Sawyer, of course.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

aindik said:


> Are you suggesting that the goal of the con was something other than getting the kidney? IOW, are you saying that Anthony Cooper didn't actually need a kidney? If so, what was the goal of the con? It's not like Locke had any money for Cooper to take.


No, in my mind, the con was specifically to get the kidney. I never got too involved in how he found out whether Locke was compatible. I just thought it was pretty obvious that the whole thing was a set up, including Cooper telling Locke that he was his father. Guess I was wrong.

Moving on ...


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> I think Cooper being his bio father is what really pours salt in the wound (so to speak).
> 
> If someone with no connection to you fakes a relationship so he can get your kidney, that hurts in a lot of ways. But your own father faking that he cares about you so he can get your kidney, that takes the hurt to a whole other level.
> 
> It's part of what makes Locke's story so heart-wrenching. And frustrating when he goes back to Cooper, who then tries to kill him, and he dismisses Helen, who really did care about him, in the process.


Agreed.

That Anthony Cooper is really Locke's biological father makes for a "better story" on several levels.

One is the outright "evilness" of using his son in this way and the deeper emotional scar it left on Locke.

Another is the more intimate connection it makes between Locke and (our) Sawyer, when we learn the Anthony Cooper is the "real Sawyer".

Also, when Cooper pushed Locke out of that 8 story window, he *re-affirmed that he was Locke's Biological father*, yet let both Locke and us viewers know he was enough of an evil badass that he'd murder his own son.

I think there really can be no debate. Anthony Cooper is Locke's biological father, and "the real Sawyer".


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Started typing notes on my iPhone a few days ago while re-watching with my wife.. Had to wait until I was in front of a computer to post:

When Locke was born, the first thing they did was to put him in a box. 

I was glad Desmond didn't want to leave the boat. If I were him, I wouldn't have.

Really cool watching Keamy repeatedly try killing Michael just to get clicks.

At 13 minutes in, when they show Locke as a baby, the camera zooms out past the window that Richard ultimately looks through, and the entire scene seems framed in a very obvious box.

This one's reaching a bit, but Locke's grandmother's hat (with its weird design) almost looked like the geodesic dome in the Swan hatch.

Locke's grandmother didn't know who Richard was.. (to address any of the already discredited theories that Richard was the father instead of the con guy, which is crazy already).

random data: Locke's foster sister was named Melissa.

Locke's childhood backgammon board seemed to have some strange black and white birds on it - I imagine the prop guys said something like "excellent! This is strange/intriguing enough!". Again reminded me of Locke telling Walt that one side was light, one was dark (or whichever wording he used) in season 1.

When Locke reached for the knife, the music accompanied the choice, and highlighted its significance.

Absolutely loved that Locke was actually a man of SCIENCE, yet was resisting that (as was mentioned already in this thread).. Added to the previous encounters between Jack and Locke. He was apparently involved in it enough through high school that he did great at his science fair and was stuffed into a locker by classmates. Who else is curious what Locke's science experiment was? (of course, hearing science fair, immediately what comes to mind is the cheesy kids science experiment of a fake volcano, even though it'd never make it into an actual high school science fair.. Hey, speaking of volcano, maybe that's where the Temple is? I kinda forgot about the Volcano referenced earlier - I thought we'd hear more about that by now).

Locke's shirt in high school (again, reaching) also seemed to look like the inside of the geodesic dome (flattened out).

The kid playing Locke looked a bit like the actor playing Keamy.

I didn't see it at first, but whoever said it here was totally right - Keamy's actor does look/act very much like Christopher Walken.

random data: Locke was rehabilitating in the Delerue Center for Rehabilitation (seemed like a strange name.. but with the only anagram being rude eel, that's not much to go on.  )

I thought that Locke was gonna get pushed down the stairs.

It took a while before I even realized "hey, we're in a flashBACK episode!"

Ok, gotta do lunch, the 2nd half of my notes later.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> ...
> Ok, gotta do lunch, the 2nd half of my notes later.


Hurry back...


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> It took a while before I even realized "hey, we're in a flashBACK episode!"


When the opening scene depicted a young woman wearing 50's style clothing and putting on a Buddy Holly record, my immediate thought, 10 seconds into the episode was, "Hmmm. Looks like it's flashbacks rather than flash-forward's this week."  

Note: Whoever did the captions is clearly _way younger_ than me to have mistaken it for "Don McClean's" version of "Everyday".


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

So would the flashback scenes in this show be the chronologically earliest scenes in the show thus far? We were just discussing the chronological DVD set in last week's episode thread.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Locke's grandmother didn't know who Richard was.. (to address any of the already discredited theories that Richard was the father instead of the con guy, which is crazy already).


Locke's grandmother _said_ she didn't know who Richard was, but she said so after much dramatic hesitation. (I still think he's not the father, but not because of this).


----------



## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> I have enough time invested in this show that I really want a good payoff. A good payoff is less likely if the writers are fools. And they would have to be fools to have their original plot line depend on an 11-year-old actor not growing appreciably over the next few years.


well, apparently the writers want to go into hiding when the expected "payoff" airs...

_When it comes time to air the series finale in 2010, Lindelof said he and Cuse plan to "go into hiding for many, many months" at an "undisclosed location."

"David Chase set a great example when he went off to Paris after 'The Sopranos' ending, which is great because all these people are going to be asking, 'What does it mean? What is it?' " he said. "The fact that there's no one really around to answer that question, it forces people to come up with what they think it means. We can guarantee our show will not end with a cut to black, it will be more clear than that. But whenever anything you love ends ... there's a certain disappointment."_

full story


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

ChrisNJ said:


> I got a weird "Twin Peaks" vibe from that scene.


I still miss Audrey Horne & her associates


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, more thoughts..

Abaddon was talking to Locke and said "Do you believe in miracles? You should. I had one happen to me." (quote may not be exact). Did he really? What was his story? If Abaddon did really go on a walkabout and realized who he was, what did he realize? (Obvious questions, just stating them). Too damned cool that we saw how Locke got the idea to go on a walkabout..

(When describing the walkabout, he told him "all you have is a *knife* and your wits". Particularly interesting that he's encouraging an activity focused on the knife, whereas Richard seemed negatively affected by Locke's desire to hold a knife.)

Claire's statement to Locke was "Don't worry, I'm fine". If she's dead, that's a bizarre thing to say (unless maybe she's trying to convince him that "this afterlife-like thing is comfortable and I'm in it and happy").

I was curious why Christian told Locke "it's probably not a good idea to tell anyone else that you saw Claire here"..

Ok.. When we saw Richard and he asked Locke which of those items already belonged to him, not having seen Kundun, I thought that maybe like a hundred or so year timespan kept repeating in a loop and he was trying to see if Locke remembered his last iteration through it.. I agree, however, with posts earlier in this thread, that it's far more compatibile with the story to be checking to see if Locke has merely Desmond-time/mind-traveled back to before then, and to see if young Locke has seen his future on the island.. (that again, though, begs the question of why Richard got so visibly agitated at Locke identifying with the knife, and why he'd leave in a manner that would clearly hurt the feelings of the kid).

So, I'm not sure how many comic books we've seen, but the one tonight was NOT the one that Walt was reading (and that Hurley had on the plane).. THAT comic book was about Flash and Green Lantern (I actually bought a copy back around season 1). It, too, had an image of a floating city in the clouds, and I constantly think back to the story of that comic when I hear Jacob referred to..

I got one more thought, but I'm putting it in a separate post.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok.. So I was thinking the other day, that maybe we have the whole Daniel's-rocket experiment backwards.. Or maybe it's not even backwards, but there's just another way to look at it, that possibly is even the same in the end, but is just a different way of looking at it.

*Original assumption* (here's what I used to think):
I used to think that the radio was immune to any time effects, and that the rocket, crossing over some barrier because it wasn't on the right heading, was just arriving much later.

*New 3/4-thought-out theory*:
I now wonder what heading Daniel's rocket took. What if it took the "right" heading (305? whatever it was), and the rocket didn't time-distort at all.. What if the RADIO communications are being distorted.. What if Daniel is talking to a Regina in the future.. He's at noon, she's at 12:30 (example times). He says "ok, send the rocket now!", and she does, and she says "ok, based on its speed it should be there in 20, 15, 10, 5, NOW", and at her 12:32 she says "it should be there!".. He's at 12:02, and still doesn't see the rocket. He waits, and he sees the rockets when he's at 12:32.

(haven't gone back and checked what the clocks in the rocket and on the island said, even though I used to remember them well, so I haven't thought through all of that yet).

The doctor gets dumped overboard, doesn't follow the right heading, so he has time effects just like the radio signal.. The radio signal went from the boat, back into the past, to the island, but the doctor goes from the boat, back further into the past, to the island.

Ok, like I said, only 3/4 thought through, and maybe it's even equivalent to what we've been thinking, but at the very least it's a different way of looking at it, and possibly it's different altogether.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Amidst my mental meanderings, I had concluded that Keamy gets killed and the dead-man-switch going off, sinks the freighter. This does not explain how the O6 get off the island however. I just had another thought. Wheat if Locke moves the island and TRIGGERS the tsunami? I had always assumed that it would occur, and have an effect on what was happening on the island, but if it is the opposite, and the tsunami is caused by the moving of the island, it would imply huge amounts of energy being stored and released at will.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> What if Locke moves the island and TRIGGERS the tsunami? I had always assumed that it would occur, and have an effect on what was happening on the island, but if it is the opposite, and the tsunami is caused by the moving of the island, it would imply huge amounts of energy being stored and released at will.


Are you trying to tie together the fictional show LOST which is set in the Pacific Ocean, with the real-life tsunami which originated in the Indian Ocean on Dec. 26, 2004 where the epicentre has been established to have been located just off the coast of Sumatra? :down:


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

getreal said:


> Are you trying to tie together the fictional show LOST which is set in the Pacific Ocean, with the real-life tsunami which originated in the Indian Ocean on Dec. 26, 2004 where the epicentre has been established to have been located just off the coast of Sumatra? :down:


+1. That would be too crass.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

mqpickles said:


> +1. That would be too crass.


This has been talked about here since the first season. Now that the Island is being moved it's resurfaced, but it's nothing new. For the record, I don't think they will because, really, there is no good reason for doing it and plenty against.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

True.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with them acknowledging the tsunami somehow. But to write that some fictional element of the show _caused_ it would be too cute, almost mocking the event.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Alpinemaps said:


> Moving the island - I'll throw this out here.
> 
> Do we know for sure whether we've finally passed Dec 26, 2005? The date of the Indonesia earthquake?
> 
> I know there's been speculation that some real life event would affect the island, and people have suspected the earthquake. We've wondered how an Indian Ocean earthquake might effect an island in the Pacific. I suspected it would hide the 815 wreckage for good, but maybe the moving of the island causes the quake?





Church AV Guy said:


> Amidst my mental meanderings, I had concluded that Keamy gets killed and the dead-man-switch going off, sinks the freighter. This does not explain how the O6 get off the island however. I just had another thought. Wheat if Locke moves the island and TRIGGERS the tsunami? I had always assumed that it would occur, and have an effect on what was happening on the island, but if it is the opposite, and the tsunami is caused by the moving of the island, it would imply huge amounts of energy being stored and released at will.





getreal said:


> Are you trying to tie together the fictional show LOST which is set in the Pacific Ocean, with the real-life tsunami which originated in the Indian Ocean on Dec. 26, 2004 where the epicentre has been established to have been located just off the coast of Sumatra? :down:


I've always wanted to be smeeked. 

I suggested the same thing. I, too, agree that it would be crass, but, it would fit into the suggestion that we've heard in the past that a 'real-life event' would have an affect on the island. A lot of people have speculated that to mean the tsunami.

The 'real-life event', upon further consideration, could just be the Red Sox winning the World Series, since that's been brought up a couple of times.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I want to go back to an earlier comment someone made. What if Locke is now "unstuck in time" like Desmond? If so, as hypothesized, Locke could have traveled waaaaaay back to when he was the young boy. And What if Richard is not "old/immortal" per se? What if he just is able to travel to someone's "past" without himself getting younger?

Just random thoughts.......my head is starting to hurt......


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jlb said:


> I want to go back to an earlier comment someone made. What if Locke is now "unstuck in time" like Desmond? If so, as hypothesized, Locke could have traveled waaaaaay back to when he was the young boy. And What if Richard is not "old/immortal" per se? What if he just is able to travel to someone's "past" without himself getting younger?
> 
> Just random thoughts.......my head is starting to hurt......


There was no indication that Locke was time-travelling like Desmond did. There were whooshes and everything like a normal flashback.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> There was no indication that Locke was time-travelling like Desmond did. There were whooshes and everything like a normal flashback.


In entertaining this theory, I don't think anyone was suggesting that *this* episode was a Desmond-like travel event.. It's more like "has/will a future Locke EVER Desmond-mind-travel to any point before that event, such that Locke would remember it? (or has a younger Locke than that ever traveled into the future?)

All that being said, at this point I think its more likely kid-Locke is just having visions or dreams of the future, that Richard expected that he would.

I keep drifting back to the idea that maybe Richard "remembers" the future from "last time around" (in a loop), but this time through someone/something has changed something (maybe Desmond? Charles?), which as a side effect has made Locke - later in life - become more obsessed with knives (maybe his dad didn't con him in other loops?). Then again, if that theory were true, why would one of the choices be a knife?

I look forward to seeing where they're going with this.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I didn't see anyone mention this, but I think Matthew Abaddon is Jacob. When Locke asked him why he was just an orderly, he said something like, "I'm much more than just an orderly, and you'll realize that the next time we meet." I was fully expecting it to be Abaddon sitting in the chair in the cabin, but I still think it will be him that's directing Christian.





philw1776 said:


> If so, he's gonna be somewhat pissed at Locke for tossin' a knife into the back of his security girl Naomi.
> Shoulda known that the kid always had a penchant for knives.


I don't think Abaddon as Jacob would tell Naomi - "There were no survivors."
Cause Jacob knows there were survivors.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> I don't think Abaddon as Jacob would tell Naomi - "There were no survivors."
> Cause Jacob knows there were survivors.


I am somewhat skeptical about this theory, but regardless, I don't think we can take anything from that conversation at face value. To me, it seemed like they were talking like someone would say "I was never here" in a spy or military special ops type movie or show. I.e., they knew that what they were saying wasn't true but they were going to pretend that it was.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> I don't think Abaddon as Jacob would tell Naomi - *"There were no survivors."*
> Cause Jacob knows there were survivors.


No, *WE* are the survivors


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Jkeegan's time theory confused me ()but this makes sense to me if...



Rosincrans said:


> It's all in how you look at it. Let's say the boat and the island are in the same time frame. The doctor gets killed, floats across the barrier and the body goes back in time 2 days. (No idea what the real differential was) That's how it could wash ashore but the doctor also still be alive on the boat at the same time.


floats across the barrier and the body goes into the FUTURE '2' days, not back in time. 
Thats how the frieghter people would know already that the doc was dead.

Oh i went cross-eyed again.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I am somewhat skeptical about this theory, but regardless, I don't think we can take anything from that conversation at face value. To me, it seemed like they were talking like someone would say "I was never here" in a spy or military special ops type movie or show. I.e., they knew that what they were saying wasn't true but they were going to pretend that it was.


Agreed, that's 100% how I took it..

There *were no survivors*. (implied heavy handed wink wink). She then even followed it up with something like "yeah, I know, but what if I *do* find survivors...".


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> Jkeegan's time theory confused me ()but this makes sense to me if...
> 
> floats across the barrier and the body goes into the FUTURE '2' days, not back in time.
> Thats how the frieghter people would know already that the doc was dead.
> ...


Ok here are some pictures to illustrate. I still haven't had time to think through the clock inside the rocket and on the island (which would require looking up what the clocks actually said).

(Time goes from left to right on these charts..)

First, the rocket experiment (assuming the rocket was on the right heading so it didn't travel through time any different than normal):









Then, the doctor's body (assuming it floated randomly, _not_ on the correct heading:


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> No, *WE* are the survivors


I can't wait until we see that scene from the other perspective.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok here are some pictures to illustrate.


Laid out this way, it makes perfect sense. The diagrams really helped.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I still haven't had time to think through the clock inside the rocket and on the island (which would require looking up what the clocks actually said).


Rocket experiment clocks

The one from the rocket says 3:16:22
the one Daniel had on the Island reads: 2:45:03
(+/- a couple seconds for each)


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Rocket experiment clocks
> 
> The one from the rocket says 3:16:22
> the one Daniel had on the Island reads: 2:45:03
> (+/- a couple seconds for each)


Holy HD! That guy needs a manicure.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Figaro said:


> Holy HD! That guy needs a manicure.


I'm going to steal his fingerprints for some false fingertips so I can commit the perfect crime!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Wow. Thanks Jeff Keegan!  I totally get it now. Eyes are uncrossed. 
I think i'm going to put that on my refrigerator


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Figaro said:


> Holy HD! That guy needs a manicure.


No kidding. These images are simultaneously an argument for and against HD.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

There's an intersting interview with Darlton over at EW.com, I found this bit about the numbers, and unanswered questions in general, particularly interesting:


> *Damon Lindelhof:* There are some questions that are very engaging and interesting, and then there are other questions that we have no interest whatsoever in answering. We call it the midi-chlorian debate, because at a certain point, explaining something mystical demystifies it. To try and have a character come and say, "Here is what the numbers mean," actually makes every usage of the numbers up to that point less interesting.
> 
> You can actually watch Star Wars now, and when Obi-Wan talks about the Force to Luke for the first time, it loses its luster because the Force has been explained as, sort of, little biological agents that are in your blood stream. So you go, "Oh, I liked Obi-Wan's version a lot better." Which in the case of our show is, "The numbers are bad luck, they keep popping up in Hurley's life, they appear on the island."
> 
> ...


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> There's an intersting interview with Darlton over at EW.com, I found this bit about the numbers, and unanswered questions in general, particularly interesting:


They are plain wrong though. The Force has not been explained in any Star Wars movie - why some are better at using it has.

Very poor analogy to the numbers in "Lost". I don't demand an explanation for them but it seems like a cop-out to say that it would "demystify" them to explain it, when the real reason is that they have no explanation for it.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

MickeS said:


> They are plain wrong though. The Force has not been explained in any Star Wars movie - why some are better at using it has.
> 
> Very poor analogy to the numbers in "Lost". I don't demand an explanation for them but it seems like a cop-out to say that it would "demystify" them to explain it, when the real reason is that they have no explanation for it.


I think the analogy is apt and, while it's true that the step-by-step mechanics of how the Force works was not explained; I think the attempt at explaining it or giving it an anchor in science by introducing midi-chlorians was lame, and doesn't mesh perfectly with what Obi-Wan said about it in Episode IV. I think it was cop-out for Lucas to try to flesh out the concept, when really he had no explanation for it.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I thought the numbers had been explained, kinda sorta, during the Lost Experience:



Spoiler



Weren't they revealed to be the core values of the Valenzetti Equation? link


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

danterner said:


> I thought the numbers had been explained, kinda sorta, during the Lost Experience:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think that explains them, it just adds to the mythology. It doesn't explain why they were chosen as the values that had to be keyed into the Hatch computer, or why the rim of the Hatch was marked with them, or even what human/environmental factors they're supposed to represent within the Valenzetti Equation (quoted form the linked page):



> Less than a year later, Valenzetti returned with his eponymous equationwhich, reportedly,
> is not unlike the Drake Equation (sometimes mistakenly referred to as the "Sagan Equation"),
> but far greater in complexity. Because of the conditions of secrecy under which
> Valenzetti produced his work, the totality of the equation has never been brought to light,
> ...


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Thanks for that link, danterner.  At least they had a reason for the numbers and the glyph symbols. Some mention on the show itself would have been nice (Unless I missed it?)


----------



## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> I think the analogy is apt and, while it's true that the step-by-step mechanics of how the Force works was not explained; I think the attempt at explaining it or giving it an anchor in science by introducing midi-chlorians was lame, and doesn't mesh perfectly with what Obi-Wan said about it in Episode IV. I think it was cop-out for Lucas to try to flesh out the concept, when really he had no explanation for it.


Correlation is not same as causation. If you listen closely in the movie, it is never stated that the midichlorians are the _cause_ of the Force. It only says they are present in greater numbers in people who are strong in the Force. I took it as meaning that midichlorians are naturally attracted to the Force, and therefore can be used as an indirect measure of Force strength. I think it fits perfectly well with what Obi-wan said in Episode IV.


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Ok here are some pictures to illustrate...


If this were true, then it could easily be proved by one person simply asking the other person what time it was on the other side, right? Didn't Daniel synchronize with Regina before the rocket experiment? I thought he did, but I honestly can't remember for sure.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Correlation is not same as causation. If you listen closely in the movie, it is never stated that the midichlorians are the _cause_ of the Force.


 Yes, I understand that, that's why I said: "the step-by-step mechanics of how the Force works was not explained"


> I think it fits perfectly well with what Obi-wan said in Episode IV.


I think the midi-chlorian thing is unnecessary exposition that makes the Force sound like a silly writer's contrivance - which, of course, it is...

But anyway; I just found it interesting that the LOST creators intend to leave the Numbers ambiguous.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

TheGreyOwl said:


> If this were true, then it could easily be proved by one person simply asking the other person what time it was on the other side, right? Didn't Daniel synchronize with Regina before the rocket experiment? I thought he did, but I honestly can't remember for sure.


I think it was implied, but I can't remember them saying they did it.

What I do find interesting is things like Sayid asking why it went from night to daylight way too fast, or something like that.. Their journey seemed to be different than that of the ambient light around them.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> I think it was implied, but I can't remember them saying they did it.
> 
> What I do find interesting is things like Sayid asking why it went from night to daylight way too fast, or something like that.. Their journey seemed to be different than that of the ambient light around them.


They left at dusk and when they arrived it was midday.

I was reading something recently and I'll have to check the details but I believe Cuse and Lindelof were discussing how communications via satellite (e.g. the sat phone) and things like the morse code signal, which I think was via radio, were affected differently by the time anomaly between the freighter and the island. It had something to do with satellite signals going up and over the barrier or something to that effect, and it was being talked about in the context of why the sat phone conversations were in synch but the morse code signals were not (apparently).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> They left at dusk and when they arrived it was midday.
> 
> I was reading something recently and I'll have to check the details but I believe Cuse and Lindelof were discussing how communications via satellite (e.g. the sat phone) and things like the morse code signal, which I think was via radio, were affected differently by the time anomaly between the freighter and the island. It had something to do with satellite signals going up and over the barrier or something to that effect, and it was being talked about in the context of why the sat phone conversations were in synch but the morse code signals were not (apparently).


Well that'd be very interesting! I have listened to a bunch of recent podcasts recently, but not all of them.. If you can find a reference to this, I'd be eager to read everything it says.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Well that'd be very interesting! I have listened to a bunch of recent podcasts recently, but not all of them.. If you can find a reference to this, I'd be eager to read everything it says.


I brought this idea up back in February. Are the producers smeeking me?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Well that'd be very interesting! I have listened to a bunch of recent podcasts recently, but not all of them.. If you can find a reference to this, I'd be eager to read everything it says.


Found it. I had only read the key quote from Damon L. but found the full article it came from.


> According to the rules of our show, a communication between sat phones is not affected by temporal distortion, but if you were to send a radio broadcast and/or a telegraph message, it would be affected by temporal distortion.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Holy HD! That guy needs a manicure.


Real men just trim their own nails with one of these:










They don't get "manicures".


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ok here are some pictures to illustrate.


I have to ask if you've ever read any quantum physics texts and particularly about Feynman diagrams, because these diagrams really feel reminiscent of those, both in form and content.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> I have to ask if you've ever read any quantum physics texts and particularly about Feynman diagrams, because these diagrams really feel reminiscent of those, both in form and content.


Cool.. No, I wasn't consciously referring to (or aware of by name) Feynman diagrams, but I have read a bunch of articles on quantum entanglement, quantum computing, and general quantum physics over the years, so maybe some of it rubbed off.

So it looks from the article that Jeff cited that at least my rocket chart is off/wrong since they're saying sat phones are unaffected, so they can't be going backwards. That means the boat and island are in sync.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Real men just trim their own nails with one of these:
> 
> They don't get "manicures".


What are you talking about..."man" is right there in the word!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Real men just trim their own nails with one of these:
> 
> They don't get "manicures".


Nope, real men trim their own nails with these:










Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> What are you talking about..."man" is right there in the word!


So is "cure". As in, you no longer have it. 

Of course, I wouldn't say that to Paulie Walnuts.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gchance said:


> Nope, real men trim their own nails with these:
> 
> Greg


With a Sarlacc?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

hefe said:


> With a Sarlacc?


Yep. And then rinse with minty-chlorians.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> With a Sarlacc?


Mmmmmm, Sarlacc.

Greg


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> Found it. I had only read the key quote from Damon L. but found the full article it came from.


Was Penny using a sat video phone or some sort of radio link? I think it was radio, which brings up a question -- When was she "calling" from?


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## TheGreyOwl (Aug 18, 2003)

wprager said:


> Was Penny using a sat video phone or some sort of radio link? I think it was radio, which brings up a question -- When was she "calling" from?


I guess that depends if the underwater station is inside or outside the "barrier".


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

TheGreyOwl said:


> I guess that depends if the underwater station is inside or outside the "barrier".


Charlie and Desmond didn't seem to have a problem getting to it, if that's any indication.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

aindik said:


> Charlie and Desmond didn't seem to have a problem getting to it, if that's any indication.


At least half of them had a problem getting out...


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

TheGreyOwl said:


> Correlation is not same as causation. If you listen closely in the movie, it is never stated that the midichlorians are the _cause_ of the Force. It only says they are present in greater numbers in people who are strong in the Force. I took it as meaning that midichlorians are naturally attracted to the Force, and therefore can be used as an indirect measure of Force strength. I think it fits perfectly well with what Obi-wan said in Episode IV.


I'm being bad for OT conversation, BUT, in the last movie (part 3) Palpitine tells Anikin that Darth Plagus could extend someone's life forever using the midchlorians. I took it as him saying that the midichlorians were the mechanism through which the forced worked. I can see how it could be taken another way though. like Lost, nothing is completely clear, or straightforward, or unambiguous.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I thought midichlorians were how my laundry detergent keeps my colors so bright.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> I thought midichlorians were how my laundry detergent keeps my colors so bright.


I have a plethora of unsightly contaminants!


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I feel sorry for all of you that have finished the season. I stil have the season finale to watch. 


"Move the island"? How interesting!


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

janry said:


> I feel sorry for all of you that have finished the season. I stil have the season finale to watch.
> 
> "Move the island"? How interesting!


Unless we are on the island (with it's unusual time bending), most of us haven't seen the finale either. It doesn't air until May 29th.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

RBlount said:


> Unless we are on the island (with it's unusual time bending), most of us haven't seen the finale either. It doesn't air until May 29th.


Ahh! I thought it was on the 15th. Oh well.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

janry said:


> Ahh! I thought it was on the 15th. Oh well.


That was Part 1 of the finale. Part 2 airs a week from Thursday and is 2 hours long.

Greg


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

gchance said:


> That was Part 1 of the finale. Part 2 airs a week from Thursday and is 2 hours long.
> 
> Greg


...or, do parts 2 and 3 air a week from Thursday, and each is an hour long...? hmmm.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> ...or, do parts 2 and 3 air a week from Thursday, and each is an hour long...? hmmm.


Actually the finale is 3 hours long. So there. 

Greg


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm so Lost.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hefe said:


> ...or, do parts 2 and 3 air a week from Thursday, and each is an hour long...? hmmm.


This is technically the truth.


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