# Opinions Wanted: Will Strong Need For HR10-250 Continue Or...



## restino (Oct 25, 2006)

Opinions Wanted: 

Prices have dropped from $1000 to $600 on ebay for the HR10-250 and I wonder if the units are not worth anything anymore since dtv is changing programming.

Will Strong Need For HR10-250 Continue or will it fade out as dtv makes programming modifications to the High Def channels, etc for their HR20 machines.

What are the STRONG pro's and cons to having either one? 

your input is very welcome!


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## beartrap (Nov 8, 2005)

restino said:


> Opinions Wanted:
> 
> Prices have dropped from $1000 to $600 on ebay for the HR10-250 and I wonder if the units are not worth anything anymore since dtv is changing programming.
> 
> ...


My experience is that recent selling prices on ebay for the HR10-250 are in the $200 to $300 range for used equipment, depending on what cables are included and how long the unit has been in service. So, obviously, a working HR10-250 is still worth something.

HR10-250
Strong Pros:
-Uses TiVo interface (not such a big deal if you've never used and/or are not familiar with TiVo)
-Established, relatively stable platform
-Live dual buffers
-If you get one, it will likely be owned by you and not leased from DirecTV (this may be less important to some people)

Strong Cons:
-Not MPEG-4 capable (all new DirecTV HD programming will be in MPEG-4, and most of the currently available locals and RSNs from DirecTV are in MPEG-4)
-Recent software upgrades may have introduced system bugs
-New-in-the-box units are hard to find and tend to be pricey, and buying used on ebay or from an unknown seller can be problematic

HR20-700
Strong Pros:
-MPEG-4 capable; this is the direction that DirecTV is going for all their HD programming (how soon they'll get there is a matter of much speculation and debate)
-If you get one, it will likely be a new unit from an established vendor
-If it is a leased unit (and it likely will be), DirecTV will presumably replace it at no charge if it breaks or doesn't work right

Strong Cons:
-Does not use the TiVo interface
-Numerous documented software flaws that can be extremely frustrating to the end user, although multiple software upgrades since initial release appear to have fixed many problems for most users (note the use of the words "many" and "most" as opposed to "all")
-If you get one, it will likely be leased from DirecTV and not owned by you (this may be less important to some people)

Obviously, these are just my opinions and others will have different lists. As far as how much longer there will be a strong need for the HR10 and when that need will fade out, that is largely dependent on the content, mix and availability of DirecTV's MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 HD offerings, and I don't think that anyone outside of DirecTV corporate HQ can accurately predict that, and they aren't sharing the information.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Well, I think it's pretty simple actually.

All new HD from DirecTV will be in MPEG4.
All current HD will eventually be converted to MPEG4 (might be a couple years yet).

HR10-250 can't receive MPEG4 signals (nor can it see the new sats where the HD will be put).

So the choice is really clear: If you want any of the new HD and want to continue to receive HD then the HR10-250 isn't going to do that for you. HR20 will be your only choice.

But if you don't care about that then the HR10 will be just fine for SD, what HD is left in MPEG2 during the transition and of course OTA HD.

All the other things like interface, Tivo vs. no Tivo and so forth simply don't matter. You want future HD with DirecTV the HR20 is your only choice. 
If that's not an option for you then you'll need to go without HD or move to a different provider.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

For me, I'll continue to use the HR10 for SD and OTA HD for as long as it is operational.

When my area finally gets its local HD from DirecTV, and all network stations are available and enough other HD is available then I'll see if the HR20 (or whatever the model # may be by then) is worth it.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

with good OTA in your area, this machine is perfect if you watch a lot of it. I even watch all SD on the OTA station, the pic is soooo much better. For example, if you watch the Simpsons OTA, the colors are much better than directv's philly local SD station. I've gotten my wife to even record all her daytime shows OTA. She doesnt care about the bars. The pic is so good . 

also i love the bigger drive space for SD, which really is the reason i got this in the first place (back when they were giving them away free it was easier to get this than something else)


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## IOTP (Aug 7, 2001)

I've sold a few HR10s on eBay. So far so good.. I have one laying around if anyone needs one.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

This from Wikipedia, not the most reliable source of info:

Several HD stations will be added in 2007. Partial list, dates and channel locations unknown as of March 18, 2007: A&E, National Geographic, Bravo, NFL Network, Cartoon Network, SciFi Channel, CNN, Speed, Food Network, TBS, FX, The History Channel, HGTV, The Weather Channel, MTV, USA Network, YES Network, Comcast Sports Net, New England Sports Network and FOX Sports.[5]

If these HD channels do launch by the end of this year (some have already) and any are of compelling interest to potetential viewers, they will most likely need an HR20 to view them.

So to answer the ops original question, I would say that the window of opportunity to sell your HR10 is now. By the end of the year, the demand will go down and the supply will increase as more users switch to MPEG-4. They probably won't be worth more than the $50 or so you can get for an HDVR2 on eBay right now.

Just my .02. /steve


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I hope this develops into an ongoing thread. It's the main reason I frequently check this site.
We don't know yet whether ALL the new HD channels will be in mpeg4 only. It looks like National Geographic will be available in mpeg2 pretty soon. 
The current HD channels will only be dropped when Directv decides it's cheaper to replace all mpeg2 only receivers than continue the channels(taking into account the customers that will switch rather than give up Tivo). 
Since I got satellite originally in order to get baseball I'll have to stick with Directv. 
I'll only give up the peanut remote and wishlists when I absolutely have to.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Actually yes we do know, all new HD will be MPEG4. But even if they were in MPEG2 it doesn't matter. There is no room on the current satellites for new HD channels (thus NGC is just a preview). Thus all new HD channels are going up on the new sats at 99 and 103. MPEG4 isn't required for the new HD, it's just something they are moving to (as is Dish network).

The HR10 and all other older HD receiver can't see the 2 new orbital slots at 99 and 103. So they could technicaly put all these new HD chanels in MPEG2 but it still won't matter because the HD Tivo can't see the channels because it doesn't know that 99 or 103 exist.

People get this confused. MPEG4 is only part of the deal, it's more the new satellite slots that the older receivers can't see.


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## maldini (Mar 2, 2005)

For those of us that want to make the leap to MPEG-4 and the new birds eventually, will there be any sort of tradein plan for the old HR10-250's?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i cant say for sure about trade ins but is there any chance you need 2 tuners and more hard drive space? I'm a heavy user and positively the SD stuff will be on mpeg2 for many many years and you could use it to record multiple conflicts etc. 

Just a thought as if Hdtivo is working now, would be ashame to get rid of it if you could use it in some manner.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

maldini said:


> For those of us that want to make the leap to MPEG-4 and the new birds eventually, will there be any sort of tradein plan for the old HR10-250's?


Many people who have been customers for at least a couple of years have gotten new HR20s for less than $50 out of pocket without having to trade the HR10 in even. Of course, there is a comittment and the HR20 is leased, but not too bad a deal. Of course, YMMV depending on whaty CSR you talk to and whatever formula they use to calculate how valuable a customer you are.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Interesting thread. 

I'm in roughly the same boat, looking at what to do. I've used TiVo for 7 years and my wife and 4 year old knows it, etc, so I'm loathe to move off the platform, and the S3 is just too darned expensive. 

I moved to Fios Internet, but not TV as yet for the whole TiVo/cost issue. I also don't want to lock myself in to another year or more commitment by moving to a newer DTV HD DVR.

I've found someone getting rid of a HR10-250 + an HDVR2 for $150 for both. For that amount, it seems reasonable to use the 250 for a year or so. By then maybe, just maybe the Comcast TiVo will be out and I'll simply move everything over to CC.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

dslunceford said:


> By then maybe, just maybe the Comcast TiVo will be out and I'll simply move everything over to CC.


Isn't there going to be a monthly Tivo charge, in addition to the regular CC HDDVR charge? I'm wondering what that package will cost vs. D*, which I believe is still a bit less expensive (by $200-$300 annually) than FIOS or Cablevision in my area, for comparable programming and H/W. That's without counting whatever extra the annual Tivo charge might be. /s


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

sluciani said:


> Isn't there going to be a monthly Tivo charge, in addition to the regular CC HDDVR charge? I'm wondering what that package will cost vs. D*, which I believe is still a bit less expensive (by $200-$300 annually) than FIOS or Cablevision in my area, for comparable programming and H/W. That's without counting whatever extra the annual Tivo charge might be. /s


Don't know. It would be speculation. My assumption is it would have to be less than TiVo's own monthly charges to compete vs the "plain vanilla" offerings


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Lee L said:


> Many people who have been customers for at least a couple of years have gotten new HR20s for less than $50 out of pocket without having to trade the HR10 in even. Of course, there is a comittment and the HR20 is leased, but not too bad a deal. Of course, YMMV depending on whaty CSR you talk to and whatever formula they use to calculate how valuable a customer you are.


Right it really seems to vary by individual. When I called last October because I was moving I was able to get a new HR20 installed with the new dish for free. Others have had to pay up to $299 and everywhere in between.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

dslunceford said:


> Don't know. It would be speculation. My assumption is it would have to be less than TiVo's own monthly charges to compete vs the "plain vanilla" offerings


I thought I remembered a $6.95/month upcharge for Tivo s/w instead of the stock Comcast DVR s/w being reported in the press, in addition to the normal Comcast DVR charges. That was a while back, tho, so things may have changed. /steve


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

dslunceford said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I also don't want to lock myself in to another year or more commitment by moving to a newer DTV HD DVR.
> 
> I've found someone getting rid of a HR10-250 + an HDVR2 for $150 for both. For that amount, it seems reasonable to use the 250 for a year or so. By then maybe, just maybe the Comcast TiVo will be out and I'll simply move everything over to CC.


If you buy a used HR10-250, you'll still be required to agree to a 2-year commitment before D* will activate it. :down:


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## puffdaddy (Mar 1, 2006)

I've seen a pair of HR10-250's go for $50 each on Craig's list. Granting that was a very low price, I still predict that the price will continue to fall as folks move to HR20's for the new MPEG4 stations. There could even be a sharp drop if DTV did pull the plug on the HD MPEG2 streams.

I can only envision one scenario in which the price for HR10-250's would increase, and that would require a confluence of events that make it permissible to discuss how to use an HR10-250 as an OTA-only HD TiVo without a subscription. Currently that is considered theft of service and is not discussed.

Given that DTV will probably never shut off the SD MPEG2 stream and will probably allow folks to continue to use HR10-250's indefinitely, I don't think the above scenario likely. Thus, most folks would want to sell their HR10-250s now while they still fetch ~$250-300.


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## doncoolio (Jul 9, 2006)

puffdaddy said:


> I've seen a pair of HR10-250's go for $50 each on Craig's list. Granting that was a very low price, I still predict that the price will continue to fall as folks move to HR20's for the new MPEG4 stations. There could even be a sharp drop if DTV did pull the plug on the HD MPEG2 streams.
> 
> I can only envision one scenario in which the price for HR10-250's would increase, and that would require a confluence of events that make it permissible to discuss how to use an HR10-250 as an OTA-only HD TiVo without a subscription. Currently that is considered theft of service and is not discussed.
> 
> Given that DTV will probably never shut off the SD MPEG2 stream and will probably allow folks to continue to use HR10-250's indefinitely, I don't think the above scenario likely. Thus, most folks would want to sell their HR10-250s now while they still fetch ~$250-300.


I agree that people will start the theft of tivo service hacks for OTA. The HR10-250s are less desirable as SD boxes because they lack MRV.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Lije Baley said:


> If you buy a used HR10-250, you'll still be required to agree to a 2-year commitment before D* will activate it. :down:


Wait, seriously?!? The rep I spoke to this evening (I picked up the 250 this afternoon) didn't mention that AT ALL. How would I verify?

As an aside, the rep was able to simply reactivate the existing card on the unit...I didn't have to pay for or request a new card.


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

dslunceford said:


> Wait, seriously?!? The rep I spoke to this evening (I picked up the 250 this afternoon) didn't mention that AT ALL. How would I verify?
> 
> As an aside, the rep was able to simply reactivate the existing card on the unit...I didn't have to pay for or request a new card.


Do a search, or better start a new thread: "Does activating a used HD-Tivo create a new 2-year commitment," or something like that. Folks here know for sure, but probably aren't visiting this thread. I may be wrong about a used unit. I haven't tried to activate one, but thought that any change equipment required a new commitment.

Edit: Lots of threads, but here's one: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317038&highlight=new+commitment


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Remember the USB ports on the HR10-250!! Basing any purchase decision on implied future usefulness is foolish. Buy what you like and what takes care of your current needs now whether the HR10 or HR20, but don't purchase for the future MPEG4 HD that may or may not materialize anytime soon. Personally, I am going with the HR10 now because of the interface and remote. If/when DirecTV offers new HD channels that I desire to have and if they are not charging extra for them (the other great unknown - how is DTV going to structure pricing) then I will determine if the MPEG4 machines are worth it. After then, the Hr10 will work great for OTA and MPEG2 HD and SD programming - so it will still have usefulness. The big question is will the HR20 have value when its successor device comes out and does all the stuff it can't currently do (dual buffer, games, etc, interactive, etc) IMO the HR10 will always have niche value for the Tivo interface which no other DVR produced by DTV will possess.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

parzec said:


> Remember the USB ports on the HR10-250!! Basing any purchase decision on implied future usefulness is foolish. Buy what you like and what takes care of your current needs now whether the HR10 or HR20, but don't purchase for the future MPEG4 HD that may or may not materialize anytime soon. Personally, I am going with the HR10 now because of the interface and remote. If/when DirecTV offers new HD channels that I desire to have and if they are not charging extra for them (the other great unknown - how is DTV going to structure pricing) then I will determine if the MPEG4 machines are worth it. After then, the Hr10 will work great for OTA and MPEG2 HD and SD programming - so it will still have usefulness.


Just a couple comments/corrections:

1) MPEG4 and new HD *is* going to happen. DirecTV isn't spending a billion dollars plus for new satellites to just sit on them and do nothing.  It's coming and coming realy quick. Heck, there are already RSNs in HD up in MPEG4 as well as 59 local markets in HD. But it all depends on if any of that interests you. And yep, the HR10 will still work great for SD and OTA after the transition. So the capacity will be there by fall to uplink any HD channels that are available as they come online.



> The big question is will the HR20 have value when its successor device comes out and does all the stuff it can't currently do (dual buffer, games, etc, interactive, etc)


2) HR20 has been Interactive since day one. Games have been tested in beta releases and will appear national at some point (games really isn't a key component of a DVR anyway). You are correct though that the HR20 does not have dual live buffers.


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## Lije Baley (May 12, 2004)

parzec said:


> (the other great unknown - how is DTV going to structure pricing) then I will determine if the MPEG4 machines are worth it.
> 
> The big question is will the HR20 have value when its successor device comes out and does all the stuff it can't currently do (dual buffer, games, etc, interactive, etc)


D* has already restructured pricing. If you activate a new HD receiver, you are required to pay an HD access fee ($10) monthly. For that you'll receive all the HD programming available in your tier (i.e. TNT, ESPN, FX or whatever). Your billing will be based upon the programming tier you select, which will always be subject to price increases.

When a successor to the HR20 arrives, the value of the HR20 will not be important. It's not yours to sell; you're leasing it from D*. The interesting question will be if and what D* will charge customers to trade up to the newer models.


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## Doright (Jan 10, 2002)

Lije Baley said:


> If you buy a used HR10-250, you'll still be required to agree to a 2-year commitment before D* will activate it. :down:


Not true (in may case anyway).

I've activated 3 HR10-250's in the last couple months and never had to agree to a 2 year commitment.

Caviate: On one of the activations, they tried to tell me I had purchased a leased HR10-250 (I bought it on e-bay) and that I would have to agree to a 2 year activation. I told them no way. The CSR was adimant. I asked to speak to a Supervisor. After MUCH discussion she agreed to change their records to "OWNED" rather than leased. My argument was that they should go after the guy who sold it. After all, the lease contract states that you will have to pay (something like 450.00) if you do not return the Tivo when your lease expires or you leave DirecTV.

So make sure the HR10 you buy is owned and not leased.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Lije Baley said:


> Do a search, or better start a new thread: "Does activating a used HD-Tivo create a new 2-year commitment," or something like that. Folks here know for sure, but probably aren't visiting this thread. I may be wrong about a used unit. I haven't tried to activate one, but thought that any change equipment required a new commitment.
> 
> Edit: Lots of threads, but here's one: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317038&highlight=new+commitment


Yep, this is wrong, no need for a search.

Their activation software now defaults to any new activation being a "lease" but once activated, they can correct the description for that hardware to show that it is owned and/or used. There's no additional agreement clause. You do need to ensure they change it and that it occurs. Unlike Doright's experience mine was simple and pleasant with no issues -- the rep had it changed before I even finished describing the issue (I called back in after activation and seeing "lease" next to the newly added 250 on my online account info).


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

My experience: I just upgraded to HDTV and sought out a HR10-250 from ebay. I think I paid $250 with all the cables. I did this for 3 reasons: 1 I've been a long time Tivo supporter and the wife and I are very comfortable with their interface. 2 I have no less than 3 friends with the DirecTV DVR who absolutely hate it (missing recordings, etc). And 3 I knew that I'd have to lease the new DirecTV DVR from them and sign a 2 year commitment.

For $250 bucks, I got exactly what I want right now.....and if anything changes in the future (Like they discontinue MPEG2 or they sign a new deal with Tivo, or whatever) I can then easily switch over and be out very little money.


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

While I would like a few more HD channels(Starz, SciFi, NESN)I'm OK with what they have now.
By the time Directv drops the mpeg2 HD channels they have up(2 years, 3 years?)a lot may have changed. 
I don't understand why people who have given up their Tivos still post here.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

pmyers said:


> My experience: I just upgraded to HDTV and sought out a HR10-250 from ebay. I think I paid $250 with all the cables. I did this for 3 reasons: 1 I've been a long time Tivo supporter and the wife and I are very comfortable with their interface. 2 I have no less than 3 friends with the DirecTV DVR who absolutely hate it (missing recordings, etc). And 3 I knew that I'd have to lease the new DirecTV DVR from them and sign a 2 year commitment.
> 
> For $250 bucks, I got exactly what I want right now.....and if anything changes in the future (Like they discontinue MPEG2 or they sign a new deal with Tivo, or whatever) I can then easily switch over and be out very little money.


That pretty much mirror's my thinking and actions as well...and I also feel better about the $150 I paid vs the eBay price  

Now if only the software will update to 6.x It's still on version 3.x!


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

oh yeah...and the CSR did try to tell me that to activate the HR10-250 would require a new 2 year commitment but from being informed from this forum I "politely" told him that wasn't true


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Just a couple comments/corrections:
> 
> 1) MPEG4 and new HD *is* going to happen. DirecTV isn't spending a billion dollars plus for new satellites to just sit on them and do nothing.  It's coming and coming realy quick.


Just to clarify, I don't disagree - I just said they may or may not materialize *soon*. The final sat is still on the ground waiting to be launched sometime in June or July -- but they are not yet in orbit. To paraphrase " don't count your Sats until they hatch -- err launch successfully  Stuff can happen to delay a launch or cause it to fail miserably.


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