# TiVo Offers Roamio OTA with Lifetime for $399!



## David Bott (Jan 1, 1999)

Hey All...

Ok, so, remember that price point TiVo was trying at $299 as one of the tests? Well the good news is that as one of several different pricing options, that $299 price went viral; and TiVo blew through the modest inventory set aside for that test in nearly a day!!!

Now it is not like that TiVo didn't exactly "break the Internet," with all the rush or anything, however they realized that that was something that had people excited about TiVo. The down side is that they also realized this low price was simply not sustainable.

So they went back to work to run the numbers and they are introducing another price test for Roamio OTA with a $399 price that also included *lifetime TiVo service*! TiVo is curious to see how it does and even more curious to hear what you think.

Post away!


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I think $400 is the correct price, of course everybody would prefer the price be $300 but if that isn't sustainable that can't be done and I believe it isn't. I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime for $400 using the 10-year loyalty program, right before the crazy $300 Roamio OTA price was available. Even though I only use the Roamio for OTA, I never return something because a better deal becomes available after I buy.

It should be a good seller and if it can be done profitably at the $400 price, that is good news. There is no competition at that price, at least not if a comparable product is desired.

I am sure we will see recommendations for $300 and $350 but I don't believe either is possible and sure can't offer TiVo any suggestions how to sell at either price point.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I also didn't think the $300 price was viable profit wise. It was likely enough to cover manufacturing and marketing but I really doubt it covered development. And future development is what is going to give us the next product so I am all for a price that is higher enough to keep TiVo developing new products. 

Personally I paid $590 (plus tax) for the base Roamio with lifetime (used only for OTA) and felt it was worth the price but understand that other OTA users maybe more price concerned than I was/am.

At $400 with lifetime it is going to be pretty hard for all the people who cry about not wanting service fees to be able to say much, of course some will still think the price is too high but with the alternatives costing as much or more it isn't going to ring true to reasonable people.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I got one of the $299 ones, but if I hadn't I'd probably still buy at this price point.

Although if they were to sell the Basic at this price instead I'd buy my Mom one right away. She currently has two Premiers but would do much better with a single 4 tuner unit and a couple of Minis instead. (she's been asking me about being able to watch in a 3rd room)


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

If I already have a TiVo Premiere, do I need a Mini to stream recordings from the Roamio to the Premiere? If I can't stream, can I still transfer recordings from the Roamio to the Premiere?

This $399 Roamio offer intrigues me, but only if I can integrate it with my Premiere. I don't want to give up the two tuners in the Premiere by replacing it with a Mini.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Graymalkin said:


> If I already have a TiVo Premiere, do I need a Mini to stream recordings from the Roamio to the Premiere? If I can't stream, can I still transfer recordings from the Roamio to the Premiere?
> 
> This $399 Roamio offer intrigues me, but only if I can integrate it with my Premiere. I don't want to give up the two tuners in the Premiere by replacing it with a Mini.


I have a series 4 and a series 5. I can watch or copy programs between them at will. So, yes to stream and yes to transfer.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

I see the Roamio OTA does NOT have a working CableCard slot. So it's not going to work for me. And I'm not ready to pay double the price for a Roamio Plus with lifetime.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Graymalkin said:


> I see the Roamio OTA does NOT have a working CableCard slot. So it's not going to work for me. And I'm not ready to pay double the price for a Roamio Plus with lifetime.


Well there is the base Roamio that you should be able to get for $550-$600 with lifetime that has cable card. But if you have owned TiVos for 10 years you should call and asked about the current 10 Year Loyalty Deal. See this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10514632#post10514632


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Graymalkin said:


> I see the Roamio OTA does NOT have a working CableCard slot. So it's not going to work for me.


What did you think that OTA meant?



> And I'm not ready to pay double the price for a Roamio Plus with lifetime.


There are two other models between the OTA and the Plus.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

scandia101 said:


> There are two other models between the OTA and the Plus.


Did they add a model?

OTA>Base>?>Plus>Pro


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

It is absurd to think that they learned whether the $299 price was sustainable by test marketing it; obviously they know how much a unit costs by the time they've built one. What they learned from the test marketing the demand for an OTA with Lifetime. So either the trial was an introductory price to build interest, or now that they know how much interest there is they know that the market will sustain the higher price point.

If I were a consumerist I'd be whining about TiVo price gouging; since I believe in the free markets I'm happy for TiVo that they've got a winner here. I'm Seriously thinking about buying one to retire my TiVo HD.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There is a rumor that they migh be building a new OTA unit with a built in Stream to take on the Aereo name. This could the price they intend to use for that new unit and they're just establishing the price now with the existing hardware.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

SullyND said:


> Did they add a model?
> 
> OTA>Base>?>Plus>Pro


Sorry, I confused myself with my train of thought on that one


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

To me that 10 year customer stuff is bogus,I have used tivo since 2000 but since it was with directv the first10 years they dont count it! i have been using the tivo premiere with verizon fios the last 5years or so. and tivo wont go me as good a deal as other cable customers have gotten.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Too much money for an OTA unit. It would be the right price for the Roamio that does offer the ability of OTA OR CATV: the Roamio. Now, if the OTA came with SlingTV as one of the apps, then that adds a lot of value to the OTA and $399 becomes reasonable.

Please, by this time, TiVo is making the Roamios, especially the OTA model so CHEAP (only 4 tuners instead of 6 and no CC nor any added cost to accommodate CATV, no built-in Stream which probably did cost TiVo some serious $$ and possible licensing fees), $299 with Lifetime should be the ceiling OR $399 if the OTA had SlingTV because SlingTV would probably cost TiVo some money (I would sure love it if Dish and TiVo could split the cost). PLEASE, the OTA must be extremely cheap to make (they learned how to make really cheap ones with the Premier), but we will NEVER see those numbers. No company shares such numbers, and usually because they don't want people to know just how CHEAP they have been able to make these things, and we are talking some time now since the introduction of the S5, so they've gotten some of that money back and certainly seemed to be inferring so with TiVo's crowing about how well the Roamios are doing and some of the best numbers in many, many years.

$299 for OTA w/Lifetime--OR--$399 with, ideally SIX tuners, or at least SlingTV. OTA with SlingTV would be a KILLER product.

BTW, SlingTV will be coming to the Channel Master DVR+, but I don't think Dish is opposed to having SlingTV anywhere it can put it. Dish has pretty much stated that SlingTV is agnostic and SlingTV is Dish transiting to an OTT service because they know satellite may not have many more years in its current form, so, YES, Dish would want it on TiVo OTA or ANYWHERE they can put it because SlingTV is the future of Dish, or, perhaps, in some way, the PRESENT times for Dish. Dish has even inferred they are willing to take loss of Dish subs who switch to SlingTV. Ergen has been more and more willing to make statements that SlingTV is the future of Dish, something the media companies do not want to hear. So as many places they can put it to increase the growth, the better. Although they do have a cap on how many subscribers they can have before the media companies can back out of SlingTV, but it will take some years in strong growth to reach those numbers. Besides, if growth is strong, all SlingTV has to do is offer the media companies more money, and those numbers go away.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

celtic pride said:


> To me that 10 year customer stuff is bogus,I have used tivo since 2000 but since it was with directv the first10 years they dont count it! i have been using the tivo premiere with verizon fios the last 5years or so. and tivo wont go me as good a deal as other cable customers have gotten.


How is it bogus? The deal is described and doesn't include DirecTV TiVos, you might not like it but that doesn't make it bogus. I don't know why it doesn't include DirecTV TiVos but I do know it is TiVo's decision to make. Possibly it doesn't include DirecTV TiVos because TiVo didn't handle those and may not have any way to determine who would qualify.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

I bought a pair of Roamio OTA DVRs at the $299.99 price. I wish I had purchased three. You really cannot know how good a DVR it is before using one. The Roamio OTA is the only box a cord cutter needs (though I wish the OTA with lifetime could use embedded data for the guide for those who do not have a phone or internet connection).

$399.99 is the right price for the Roamio OTA, but only if they extend the warranty to one year.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Did they add a model?
> 
> OTA>Base>?>Plus>Pro


Yes and no.

The Roamio OTA is the original 4 tuner Roamio, but without some or all of the hardware, including the cable card socket, that allows it tune cable.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

unitron said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The Roamio OTA is the original 4 tuner Roamio, but without some or all of the hardware, including the cable card socket, that allows it tune cable.


I don't understand what you are saying. Scandia said there were two models between the OTA and Plus.

Are you now sawing there are two OTA (Only) models, or did you just not read my post before you replied?



scandia101 said:


> There are two other models between the OTA and the Plus.


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## MychaelP (Jun 30, 2004)

I went to Tivo's site and somehow still had one in my cart for $299, so bought it. 
I recall doing a survey for Tivo last year and they have $299 as an option for me to choose as to which price would I pay for a box. 
With so many options for streaming shows available, I think the $299 price will be back at some point. 
I've used the Roamio at a friend's house and like how much faster the interface is, however it is nowhere as fast as the Fire TV. As more and more options become available, Tivo will need a low price to gain more customers. Most OTA customers simply don't want to spend $400 for something... anything really. So this at $299 is a great deal.
I suggest wait for a $299 price unless you absolutely need it now.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> ...Please, by this time, TiVo is making the Roamios, especially the OTA model so CHEAP (only 4 tuners instead of 6 and no CC nor any added cost to accommodate CATV, no built-in Stream which probably did cost TiVo some serious $$ and possible licensing fees), $299 with Lifetime should be the ceiling OR $399 if the OTA had SlingTV because SlingTV would probably cost TiVo some money (I would sure love it if Dish and TiVo could split the cost). PLEASE, the OTA must be extremely cheap to make (they learned how to make really cheap ones with the Premier), but we will NEVER see those numbers. No company shares such numbers, and usually because they don't want people to know just how CHEAP they have been able to make these things, and we are talking some time now since the introduction of the S5, so they've gotten some of that money back and certainly seemed to be inferring so with TiVo's crowing about how well the Roamios are doing and some of the best numbers in many, many years....


TiVo, of course, doesn't manufacture anything. They contract with companies like Pace to build the DVRs to their specs. So, it is not just about the cost of materials plus TiVo's profits, it is the cost of materials plus TiVo's profit, PLUS Pace's profit. Personally, I don't see TiVo DVRs of any flavor costing less than roughly $200 to build, and at $299 there wouldn't be much room for Pace and TiVo to both make a profit and cover shipping and warehouse costs.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

wizwor said:


> I bought a pair of Roamio OTA DVRs at the $299.99 price. I wish I had purchased three. You really cannot know how good a DVR it is before using one. The Roamio OTA is the only box a cord cutter needs (though I wish the OTA with lifetime could use embedded data for the guide for those who do not have a phone or internet connection).
> 
> $399.99 is the right price for the Roamio OTA, but only if they extend the warranty to one year.


I get what you are saying, but any cord-cutter really does need internet access. I don't know any cord cutters without it, and they depend upon internet access more than ever because of it.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Diana Collins said:


> TiVo, of course, doesn't manufacture anything. They contract with companies like Pace to build the DVRs to their specs. So, it is not just about the cost of materials plus TiVo's profits, it is the cost of materials plus TiVo's profit, PLUS Pace's profit. Personally, I don't see TiVo DVRs of any flavor costing less than roughly $200 to build, and at $299 there wouldn't be much room for Pace and TiVo to both make a profit and cover shipping and warehouse costs.


Thanks for the reply. Yes, but "manufacturer" still refers to the company who owns/sells, etc. the product as in "RMA" (it is not shipped back to China, right?) and other long accepted uses for the term "manufacturer". Whether Apple or TiVo or Keurig hire someone in China or Mexico to assemble it all that far off shore factory, those companies are still "Manufactures" and "Makers." In In fact, by your precise definition, hardly ANY company truly "manufactures" their products using then own factory. Yet, the use of the term "manufacture" transcends the narrow definition. TiVo R&D and PAYS for it all, so they are the "manufacturer" "Manufacturer" is still the correct term when referring to the retail companies "PRODUCTS"

Now, if I has said "CONTRACT Manufacturer" then you would have been correct. Unfortunately, OEM is still not universally accepted as a replacement for the term "manufacturer" in referring to the company's product. So you are forgiven.

I have to disagree. The economy of scale for even a modest number of devices (cost of chips, memory, and all sorts of other electronic parts, some even less than a dollar each with mass vendor pricing) can bring the cost of seemingly complex (and certainly high MSRP--Oops! The "M" in MSRP refers to Foxcon or Apple? According to you, it would be Foxconn. For me, it would be Apple. Get the point ) consumer electronics down to shockingly low, below $200 levels full cost to produce levels. Further, TiVo, IMHO, realizes a lower cost to produce the lightweight OTA because they have realized some return on their R&D, most significantly from the Premiere line, as the Ramiro really is an somewhat revved up Premiere. So the cost of the non-streaming, non CATV capable, only 4 as opposed to 6 tuner DVR is quite likely really cheap to make, even including royalty payments.

However, the Plus and Pro are surly more expensive to produce because they do have more technology in them and, possibly, more and, perhaps, more expensive royalty payments. Certainly the Stream (remote viewing) capability adds legitimate costs along with its continued expense to improve and support.

Lastly, consider TiVo's own experiment at $299. IMHO, I don't believe TiVo would be foolish enough to offer ANY product as an experiment if it did not have sufficient profit. Oh, yes, the $299 OTA with Liftetime can be quite profitable. However, for TiVo, or any company, it is about _maximum_ profit, and while I as a consumer feel that $299 OTA with Lifetime is the limit, TiVo would also be foolish if it sold the unit at anything less than the market can bear even if it meant selling it for one or two or more hundreds of dollars more than the initial $299. From the remarks of people who believe (as my view is a belief because TiVo will never share the relevant numbers) that $399 is still fair, then how can TiVo dare to sell it for less than that if people are saying the price is OK. Even at $399 with Lifetime, the OTA is still competitively priced vs. the CM DVR+, given some of TiVo's advantages that CM DVR+ just doesn't 't have.

FWIW, I do think CM's DVR+ soon to offer SlingTV will probably blind a lot of potential buyers into purchasing the DVR+ instead of TiVo, even with TiVo's advantages. Yes, they could use a Roku for SlingTV, but SlingTV on their DVR makes for a better segue that gramps and grandma will find easier to access, especially if the SlingTV channels are integrated into the EPG. Again, a TiVo OTA with SlingTV--hopefully channels integrated into the EPG, would be giving DVR+ a big kick in the gut. Perhaps Tom should be Charlie another lunch .


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

In most cases, you return items to the place where you bought them (if you have a problem with your car, you don't take it to the manufacturer, you take it to the dealer).

But putting semantics aside, the fact remains that TiVos are not manufactured in very large quantities. While they use many off the shelf components, whose prices can be pretty closely estimated, there are still proprietary components involved (mainboard and enclosure most notably). In the volumes involved, having the mainboard fabricated, populated and tested could be a sizable portion of the total manufacturing cost.

And no matter who you call the "manufacturer" (and yes, iPhones are manufactured by Foxconn for Apple) the fact remains that the contractor as well as the contractee must make a profit. So, when calculating TiVo's cost of goods sold, you need to add Pace's (as one example) profit margin to the raw material costs, then add TiVo's margin to that. THAT was my point.

And while I agree that many of the development costs for the Roamio OTA are shared with the other Roamios, no company will lower the price on a product simply because their costs are lower. Prices only fall when a competitor undercuts the market and everyone else moves to match the price. The free market system guarantees that everything sells for the maximum price the market will bear, not the cost of goods plus a fixed profit margin.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Series3Sub said:


> I get what you are saying, but any cord-cutter really does need internet access. I don't know any cord cutters without it, and they depend upon internet access more than ever because of it.


My in-laws cannot get internet access (and barely get cell phone access) at their address. They have a land line, but there are no outlets near their televisions. Their vacation home has neither. For them, an antenna is the only feasible option and Channel Master's DVR+ provides a PSIP guide, trick play, and recording.

When we camp, internet tends to be limited, unreliable, and often unavailable. There are no land lines. Again, the small, PSIP enabled DVR+ is a good fit.

When I first cut the cord, I purchased EchoStar DTVPals. Of the five, three still work just fine five years later. When Rovi pulled the plug on their OTA guide, it was great to be able to switch to PSIP. I have a 36" Sony television which does not have hdmi inputs and am hoping at least one of the 'Pals lives as long as the television.

Of course, unplugging from the internet is important for some people for privacy and security reasons and a PSIP guide makes that more palatable.

I don't know what it costs to parse the stream for PSIP data and craft that into an on screen guide, but it can't be much (a lot of inexpensive digital-to-analog converters include guides).

I turned 53 this year. I have just put one kid through college and will soon start another. I live in a nice home with manageable costs. Since parting ways with Comcast, my entertainment budget line has dropped from $170 to $54 (the $45 ISP price is guaranteed for life). I don't see me trying to save more on that bill. My mother, on the other hand, would be better served by a 4g phablet than a computer, VOIP, and an ISP should she decide to give cord cutting a go. (She is thinking about this a bit since I gave her a Roku and access to my antenna via a Simple DVR.)

We are entering a whole new phase of cord cutting. In the beginning, we were talking about antennas and Netflix. Now sports enthusiasts can add MLB.com or get ESPN via Sling TV. Opportunity attracts competition. In the DVR arena, TiVo now faces competition from Channel Master, Tablo, and Simple. This is great for the consumer. That $299.99 offer got me to try TiVo and, frankly, I was not disappointed. If Plex is solid, Roku will exit my network. But Linear OTT, Sling TV, PSIP, and component will keep the other DVRs in the fleet.

I definitely could live without an ISP...if I didn't have TiVos


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Series3Sub said:


> I get what you are saying, but any cord-cutter really does need internet access.


Are you implying that cord cutters need internet as an alternative video entertainment source?
That's not true at all. Many cord cutters have no need to watch anything more than live OTA tv and a few give up tv entirely. Such people may have a need for the internet, but that need is unrelated to being a cord cutter.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

SullyND said:


> I don't understand what you are saying. Scandia said there were two models between the OTA and Plus.
> 
> Are you now sawing there are two OTA (Only) models, or did you just not read my post before you replied?


Originally there was the Roamio, with 4 tuners that could do OTA *or* digital cable, but not both at the same time (you have to tell it which one during setup, and if you change your mind you have to repeat that part of setup), and the 6 tuner Pro and Plus.

Now there are two versions of that base unit 4 tuner Roamio, with the newer one being the same thing as the original except they don't put in any of the stuff that lets it do digital cable, so you only get OTA.

What he should have said is that there are 2 models between the OTA and the Pro, those two models being the original 4 tuner Roamio that can do cable or OTA, and the Plus.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

unitron said:


> What he should have said is that there are 2 models between the OTA and the Pro,


No I shouldn't have. While the statement is completely correct, it doesn't fit the context at all.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

scandia101 said:


> Are you implying that cord cutters need internet as an alternative video entertainment source?
> That's not true at all. Many cord cutters have no need to watch anything more than live OTA tv and a few give up tv entirely. Such people may have a need for the internet, but that need is unrelated to being a cord cutter.


You don't call a person without both cable TV and broadband internet a cord cutter - you call them poor! 

Over the air television channels have been available since the late 40's, that isn't what is driving this trend. The trend being discussed is the availability of content via OTT services supplementing OTA television making cable TV unessesary.

Claiming that broadband internet isn't a component in the conversation is simply being obtuse.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

bradleys said:


> Over the air television channels have been available since the late 40's, that isn't what is driving this trend. The trend being discussed is the availability of content via OTT services supplementing OTA television making cable TV unessesary.
> 
> Claiming that broadband internet isn't a component in the conversation is simply being obtuse.


Obtuse? LOL. Dictionary.com is not your friend bradleys. I would characterize the OTT crowd as obtuse. No one is streaming right now and we see buffering disconnects and all sorts of problems. What do you expect to happen when people stream like they watch cable? Do you expect Comcast to provide inexpensive, uncapped, unthrottled internet access?

I know people are excited about Sling TV and whatever, but the best alternative to Comcast is broadcast television. This is not the television you watched in the 70s. In the seventies, we got a half dozen channels -- a lot of which did not broadcast 24 hours. Here is what I get today...

2.1 WGBH Boston (PBS Prime), 2.2 PBS World, 4.1 WBZ Boston (CBS), 4.2 Decades, 5.1 WCVB Boston (ABC), 5.2 MeTV, 7.1 WHDH Boston (NBC), 7.2 This TV, 8.2 Heroes and Icons, 9.1 WMUR Manchester, NH (ABC), 9.2 MeTV, 11.1 WENH Durham (PBS Prime), 11.2 PBS Explore, 11.3 PBS World, 11.4 PBS Create, 25.1 WFXT Boston (Fox), 25.2 Fox Movies!, 25.3 LAFF, 38.1 WSBK Boston (MyTV), 44.1 WGBX Boston (PBS), 44.3 PBS Create, 44.4 PBS Kids, 50.1 WBIN Derry, NH, 50.2 Antenna TV, 50.3 Grit, 56.1 WLVI Boston (CW), 56.2 ZUUS, 62.1 Cozi, 66.2 BounceTV, 66.3 GetTV, 66.4 Escape, 68.1 ION, 68.2 Qubo, and 68.3 ION Life.

Antennas are sprouting like dandelions in my neighborhood. No one knows what a Roku is. No one needs Netflix or Sling TV. An antenna is all you need.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

"Cutting the cord" can mean pretty much mean anything. Generally it means dropping (or significantly reducing) ones cable or satellite subscription. I am not sure what you replace your cable/satellite subscription with is all that defined. Certainly OTA is viable for many people as are various paid or free streaming alternatives. As are DVD/Blu-ray rentals either free from libraries or via paid rental service like red box or Netflix (yes they still have the original DVD service). And I am fairly sure there are a few cord cutters out there that decide to not replace their cable/satellite service with anything and decide to just stop watching TV. 

It is all good - I say do what works for your family and budget and don't worry about what other people are doing. Doesn't matter if it is a $200/mo cable bill , no TV at all, or anything else.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

atmuscarella said:


> "Cutting the cord" can mean pretty much mean anything.


I remember when it used to mean dropping your home phone line.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I am not a cord cutter... I have a family and I am comfortable enough to afford cable.

The point I was making is about cord cutting as a trend... There have always been people who can't afford cable, and there have always been people that don't watch a lot of TV. Those people don't factor into a cord cutter trend.

That is like saying that tattoos are a trend because guys in the navy get them.

No, if there is an OTA cord cutter trend it is because other sources are competing with and providing acceptable content for those who would have in the past - paid for cable. An OTA cord cutter trend has to canabolize cable subscriptions.

So I don't care about the 20 something kid living alone with no cable and only a phone for Internet. Grow up and have a family.

And I don't care about the person who can't afford one or either, they always existed.

And TiVo doesn't care about those people either.

It absolutely matters what sources of content people are replacing cable with - companies are investing billions of dollars into exactly that. Broadband internet is necessary to provide access to the new sources of content is and is exactly what Netflix, et al are marketing at.

Obtuse: annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

The point you are annoyingly insensitive to or slow to understand is that there is a large group of consumers who choose to enjoy OTA because it is good enough and less expensive. These people are not necessarily poor (I have a six figure salary) and do not necessarily watch less television (I have eight televisions in my home). They simply find broadcast television provides a lot of value for very little money. A lot of us (I own Rokus, SMPs, Chromecasts, Fire TVs) have sampled streaming but find it lacking. I am 53 years old. I was raised on television and loved cable when it provided great value. Now I have an antenna. It doesn't matter what you care about, but TiVo's survival depends on their caring about this demographic.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

wizwor said:


> The point you are annoyingly insensitive to or slow to understand is that there is a large group of consumers who choose to enjoy OTA because it is good enough and less expensive. These people are not necessarily poor (I have a six figure salary) and do not necessarily watch less television (I have eight televisions in my home). They simply find broadcast television provides a lot of value for very little money. A lot of us (I own Rokus, SMPs, Chromecasts, Fire TVs) have sampled streaming but find it lacking. I am 53 years old. I was raised on television and loved cable when it provided great value. Now I have an antenna. It doesn't matter what you care about, but TiVo's survival depends on their caring about this demographic.


Do you have broadband internet? I responded to an individual claiming that broadband was irrelevant and didn't matter - I find that to be a very very inaccurate statement.

If you don't have broadband internet nobody is designing consumption services for you. TiVo barely works without a broadband connection - so I stand by my point.

I am not trying to be insensitive to cord cutters - but I stand by my point that streaming services are the competition for cable and a market that concerns cable and satellite providers. This is all about transition of dollars...

Nobody, including TiVo care about people that don't / won't spend money on media consumption.

I love the way people try to personalize an entire market... Nobody cares about you, personally. Or really, what you "think" you want.

Products are developed, marketed and delivered to the largest market possible. If OTA cord cutting is a real trend, content providers are going to try to develop products for them. And with all the interest for a product as expensive and limited as SlingTV, there definitely seems to be a market to be had.

Insensitive? That is business...


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

bradleys said:


> Do you have broadband internet? I responded to an individual claiming that broadband was irrelevant and didn't matter - I find that to be a very very inaccurate statement.


I do. I have high speed, uncapped, unthrottled internet access with Fairpoint. Fairpoint does not sell entertainment services, so they do not mind that I stream. I pay $45/month for their service and the price is locked for life. I probably will not get rid of that because $45 a month is not very much money.

I could live without it. We do when I go camping. A lot of people do. If my mother had an antenna, I do not think she would have internet access at all. A lot of people today use smart phones for everything. I think they could live without broadband.

Really, though, the question is whether everyone has sufficient broadband to reliably stream entertainment. I think the answer is no.



bradleys said:


> If you don't have broadband internet nobody is designing consumption services for you. TiVo barely works without a broadband connection - so I stand by my point.


I disagree with this. I posted a list of channels I receive OTA. It's a long list and we got Escape, Grit, Laff, Decades, AntennaTV, and Heroes and Icons in the last year.

You are correct about TiVo and that was the point that started this. TiVo does not serve those without internet access well. Channel Master does. TiVo ought to add PSIP guide support to Lifetime OTA boxes so people can use their DVR without having to have a landline or internet access.



bradleys said:


> I am not trying to be insensitive to cord cutters - but I stand by my point that streaming services are the competition for cable and a market that concerns cable and satellite providers. This is all about transition of dollars...
> 
> Nobody, including TiVo care about people that don't / won't spend money on media consumption.


People have been making money off ad supported television for nearly 100 years. Today, the opportunity is greater because there is nearly 100 years of content available at a very steep discount. People who do not want to pay for cable may not be the best customers, but they do buy stuff -- including DVRs.



bradleys said:


> I love the way people try to personalize an entire market... Nobody cares about you, personally. Or really, what you "think" you want.


As I said earlier, antennas are sprouting line dandelions. TiVo should care about that. Channel Master discontinued their DVR product a few years back. They did not return to the market for _me_. GFK says that 20% of Americans rely on an antenna for television -- nearly 60 million viewers. CEA puts that number at 7% but has households relying on premium providers at 83%. (They think the rest are playing video games.) Those numbers are from 2013. Of course these numbers are based on surveys and CEA's questions were designed to maximize streaming. Watching 'at least some' is not the same as 'relying on', right?












nscreenmedia said:


> According to Nielsen's latest cross platform report the number of homes watching broadcast television using an antenna increased from 11.62M in Q1 2014 to 12.02M in Q2. Over the last year, the number has increased over 1M. Most of that growth is coming from households that also have broadband. One year ago, 5.3M homes with broadband also watched free-to-air broadcast TV. That increased 800,000, to 6.1M, in the quarter just ended.
> 
> The signs are this trend is beginning to pick up pace. Through the period 2010 to 2012 the number of broadcast only homes remained essentially static at around 11M. In 2012, through mid-year the number of broadcast-only homes actually declined slightly. Since then, growth has averaged over 2% a quarter peaking at 3.5% in the quarter just ended.


The big difference is that most people who stream are supplementing something else while most people using an antenna are using it as a primary source of programming. We're talking about antenna + roku vs cable + roku.



bradleys said:


> Products are developed, marketed and delivered to the largest market possible. If OTA cord cutting is a real trend, content providers are going to try to develop products for them. And with all the interest for a product as expensive and limited as SlingTV, there definitely seems to be a market to be had.


We don't know how successful Sling will be. People certainly like the idea. Only supporting a single concurrent stream and requiring high speed, low latency, uncapped, unthrottled internet are barriers to acceptance. Right now, they have a lot of customers who signed up for three months to get a free streamer.



bradleys said:


> Insensitive? That is business...


It is business. The most watched programs of 2014 were The Big Bang Theory (CBS), NCIS: New Orleans (CBS),	NCIS: Los Angeles (CBS), The Walking Dead (AMC), Dancing With the Stars (ABC), Madam Secretary (CBS), The Voice (Monday) (NBC), The Voice (Tuesday) (NBC), and Blue Bloods (CBS).

and the most watched sporting events are broadcast...










But the point is that for a very small investment, TiVo could add PSIP support to their Lifetime OTA boxes which would make those boxes more attractive to some cord cutters.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

First I would like to agree with wizwor that it would be great for any OTA TiVo to have the ability to use PSIP data to provide a backup guide (yes I understand it would be very limited). Doing so does 2 things for TiVo, first it removes the channel master DVRs one advantage in that it functions just fine without Internet/telephone access and second it removes the fear (unfounded in my opinion) of some that if TiVo goes out of business they will not be able to use their TiVo.

Regarding why more people are at least looking at cord cutting or cord shaving, I think there are many things coming together to help make it a viable alternative for more people. What I see is:
Demographics: This is more than just young people not living traditional lifestyles there are over 30 million 1 person household, which changes the value of traditional pay TV. 
Significant increase in the number of OTA channels. I have 7 HD channels plus another 6-7 SD ones.
Legal free and/or low cost nearly unlimited access to TV & Movie Video via IP.
More alternatives competing for people's leisure time - like social media/Internet surfing, gaming, and even low cost movie theaters. 
Continued rise in cable TV costs while simultaneously providing poor service in many people's minds.
In my opinion it is the combination of the above that is moving more people to consider cord cutting/shaving.

I personally have always lived in a cable free area (I am 57) so OTA is not something new to me - even back when I started with Dishnetwork I had to use OTA to get the main broadcast networks because at the time they where not available via Satellite. Also I have just recently (within the last 2 months) just had good enough Internet access become available to make anything more than limited low quality streaming be viable. So for the last 6-7 years that I have been without satellite OTA & TiVo pod cast downloads had been my major options.

In the end for me the reason I don't have traditional pay TV is I live alone and it is just a bad value for what I would get above free OTA & now streaming. I really have access to more TV than I can watch now so paying much for more just doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I cut the cord in 2009 and a combination of OTA and internet streaming is required for me and I would say a huge majority of cord cutters. I would say people that can do fine with only OTA have probably been doing that for a decade or more.


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## confinoj (Apr 2, 2003)

I would say the reasons for ditching cable/satellite are going to be heterogeneous but for the vast majority availability of content via internet sources plays a vital role. I think while the absolute cost for many is an issue it's also the principal of the cost for so many unnecessary channels as it was for me. I was paying over $100 per month for Directv with prices seemingly increasing every 6 months. The absolute amount of money was not an issue at all for us. However pretty much all the shows we watched were on broadcast networks and movies were watched via blu-ray or internet sources. I was a prior Tivo customer and wanted the UI back, was interested in the better quality of OTA, and just didn't think I should be paying for hundreds of channels I didn't watch. I experimented first with a cheap TivoHD off ebay and now have a roamio base + 2 minis. We already had Apple Tv's. Even just paid $400 for a quality roof mounted antenna setup as I couldn't safely do it myself.


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> The free market system guarantees that everything sells for the maximum price the market will bear, not the cost of goods plus a fixed profit margin.


Every time I see someone rant about how the sale price of a product is so much more than the cost to produce it, I think of that exact point. It seems that a lot of people don't appreciate that we live in an at least nominally free market system, where the price of an item is determined by the market, not by applying some "equitable" markup to the production cost. One does not take the cost of the paint and canvas and add a "nominal" markup to determine the price of a Picasso; it's worth what someone will pay for it. If one can command a huge markup (q.v., Apple), then there is no reason for the company not to get it.

Unless you believe that the free market system is inherently immoral, but that is way off topic for this forum


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

bradleys said:


> You don't call a person without both cable TV and broadband internet a cord cutter - you call them poor!


What are you talking about?



> Over the air television channels have been available since the late 40's, that isn't what is driving this trend. The trend being discussed is the availability of content via OTT services supplementing OTA television making cable TV unessesary.


Yep. But does any of that make my statement untrue or wrong in any way at all?



> Claiming that broadband internet isn't a component in the conversation is simply being obtuse.


Who did that?
And I believe that you mean high speed internet, not broadband. There is a difference and broadband, which is 25Mbps or greater, simply isn't necessary for most people to do all of the video streaming they need to do.
You are doing the same thing as the person I responded to. You are looking at only one group, because it's the most significant group, and saying this is the way it is rather than saying this is one way that it can be. Now that is being obtuse.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I doubt TiVo is going to add PSIP. Their entire UI is built around their structure of data and a constant connection to TiVo's servers. PSIP is way too limited to support most of their features and without a connection to their servers half the UI doesn't work anyway. (you can't even cancel a recording in the To Do List without a connection) Adding some pared down version of functionality that would work with PSIP data is possible, but I doubt they would bother just to appease a handful of people who don't have internet connections.


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## Johanna1 (May 8, 2015)

I cut the cord last year, because despite having hundreds of channels I only watched 3 or 4, and those channels were of deteriorating quality. Since everything has gone to reality TV, everything has become the same schlock. The names, Arts and Entertainment, History Channel, the Learning Channel, etc have become a joke. I don't watch sports, and that is what you're paying for with cable or satelite, so it became pointless. I still watch mostly PBS, and the others I don't miss. Actually I prefer the local stations I get OTA to the ones the cable company chose to give me. For some reason they went with ones from Jacksonville and points north instead of the Wilmington (North Carolina) ones. The digital quality OTA is outstanding so there is nothing I miss. Netflix and Amazon fill the gaps nicely.
I went with Channel Master last year for a DVR because I didn't want to pay a monthly fee, but grabbed the 299 Tivo offer when I saw it. Not sure if I'd jump at 399. I do like the Tivo interface and having Netflix and Amazon directly available. With the CM I had to switch over to the TV to access them. CM may be upgrading to improve that eventually, so Tivo may have to work to stay competitive.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

As a huge sports fan, they have me by the balls and I won't be cutting the cord anytime soon. But given that I have a Comcast double play promo with 50mb HSI and all channels + HSI for $100 a month (and have been on similar promos for over 10 years now), I have no reason to think about it anyway.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

This is a MUCH better deal for the OTA. It much more accurately reflects the relative value of a cable DVR vs. OTA. Still a bit of a niche product compared to cable, but I think they could start selling a lot of these things, especially with all the streaming integration and a good marketing campaign.

They're battle the cable providers in a way though, since many of them have such strong bundling practices.


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## Bytez (Sep 11, 2004)

I got an email from spherular yesterday, the OTA can be had for $300 with a promo code that you can buy for $39. Here's a snippet from the email:

"We can now include the TiVo Roamio OTA including lifetime for only $300.

Order here - http://spherular.com/discountcode

Use the code COMMUNITY to buy your promo code for $39."

:up:


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

unitron said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The Roamio OTA is the original 4 tuner Roamio, but without some or all of the hardware, including the cable card socket, that allows it tune cable.


Which is why it's called Roamio OTA (Over the Air!!!) I don't want a cable card slot!!! I don't need a cable card slot. i think paying for Cable TV these days is for suckers!!!

I jumped on that $299 Lifetime deal when I saw it. I knew there was no way it was going to last long. Even $399 is reasonable. $299 was better, because I spent another $100 getting a new WD 3TB Green drive to throw into it, which I did before I even plugged the Tivo in for the first time. Besides I wanted to match what I was using Now with my Media Center setup, which is the same HDD. All it was used for was Media Center. It's really to slow for a normal PC HDD but it's perfect for DRV use. Lower power needs, Much quieter, and price is right.

So really in the end $399 for a 3TB Tivo Roamio OTA with Lifetime!!! Then I got a Tivo Mini and a Tivo Stream from ebay at a lower then normal price. Brand New!!! I just need one more Tivo Mini.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The fact that the new TiVo Online requires the Stream hardware to work I think is another indication that the upcoming Aereo branded TiVo is going to have the Stream built in. If they do that, and get TiVo Online working OOH, then they have essentially the same thing Aereo did just with local hardware rather then centralized antennas/servers. (which is the part that was illegal)


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> ... another indication that the upcoming Aereo branded TiVo is going to have the Stream built in.


I wonder if that would [partially] explain the recent OTA deep discount offers.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I think it does. We already hear a rumor that TiVo is planning to announce something pertaining to Aereo next month. New hardware with built in Stream would be much more appealing then requiring the separate device like they do now.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bytez said:


> Order here - http://spherular.com/discountcode
> 
> Use the code *COMMUNITY *to buy your promo code for $39."


Note that the code is case-sensitive (i.e. don't try 'community'); and '*TCF*' also works. Both ring-up as "TiVo Community (Value: $10.00)."

edit: p.s. spherular's website doesn't yet list this OTA deal in the description details.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

celtic pride said:


> To me that 10 year customer stuff is bogus,I have used tivo since 2000 but since it was with directv the first10 years they dont count it! i have been using the tivo premiere with verizon fios the last 5years or so. and tivo wont go me as good a deal as other cable customers have gotten.


But you (and we, as 10+ year DirecTiVo users) haven't been giving as much money to TiVo. We never paid them a lifetime service fee, nor was TiVo likely receiving much from our monthly fees relative to what long-term TiVo customers would have contributed over the same period. I'm a little bummed we couldn't get the 10-yr loyalty deal, but I find it reasonable.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> TiVo, of course, doesn't manufacture anything. They contract with companies like Pace to build the DVRs to their specs. So, it is not just about the cost of materials plus TiVo's profits, it is the cost of materials plus TiVo's profit, PLUS Pace's profit. Personally, I don't see TiVo DVRs of any flavor costing less than roughly $200 to build, and *at $299 there wouldn't be much room for Pace and TiVo to both make a profit and cover shipping and warehouse costs.*


... and then there's TiVo costs associated with the guide service, TiVo Online, ongoing software updates, etc. The price covers MUUUCH more than just the hardware manufacturing costs.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

SullyND said:


> unitron said:
> 
> 
> > SullyND said:
> ...


I suspect scandia101 misspoke, and simply meant to say "between the OTA and Roamio *Pro*," though that doesn't really address Graymalkin's concerns or alternates.

Graymalkin is apparently looking for a CableCard DVR, for which the options and lowest discounted prices, excluding long-term TiVo customers, are (*):

*Roamio Basic w/ Lifetime ($490)*
Roamio Plus w/ Lifetime ($640)
Roamio Pro w/ Lifetime ($740)
So Graymalkin could get a CableCard-capable 4-tuner Roamio Basic with Lifetime Service for just $90 more than the "intriguing" $400 OTA price in the OP. Considerably less than the "double the price" suggested, and certainly preferable to the DIY alternative.

edit: p.s. Of course, if he wanted to experiment with a FrankenTiVo, Graymalkin could pickup a Lifetime OTA for $340(1) and then scavenge a CableCard adapter from a parts'd Roamio Basic, and undercut that $400 price. Maybe it'll work; mebbenot.

(1) edit: Hmmm... I just stumbled across a post from spherular stating that his $300 OTA deal has ended. Looks like it was a brief 2-day window.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bytez said:


> I got an email from spherular yesterday, the OTA can be had for $300 with a promo code that you can buy for $39. Here's a snippet from the email:
> 
> "We can now include the TiVo Roamio OTA including lifetime for only $300.


Per spherular on 6/12, his $300 OTA codes are exhausted.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

David Bott said:


> *TiVo Offers $399 Lifetime Pricing!*


A bit late to mention it, but the thread title is a bit confusing since "$399 Lifetime Pricing" could be interpreted as the 'PLSR' discount code for lifetime service. Obviously, with a bit of reading one will see the context is the Roamio OTA with Lifetime, though the model isn't mentioned until the middle of the 3rd/last paragraph.

Also, the *$399 OTA w/ Lifetime deal appears to still be active* (h/t bradleys), though you won't see it if you simply go to TiVo's online store.

edit: p.s. It should be noted that the Roamio Basic with Lifetime, which can record either OTA or via CableCard, can be had new for just $90 more.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

bradleys said:


> Over the air television channels have been available since the late 40's, that isn't what is driving this trend.


From what I've seen, it's the wildly increasing cost of pay TV, whether cable or satellite, that is driving the trend, and it's the proliferation of FREE high-quality digital broadcasts and sub-channels (*) that is enabling the trend. Access to Internet streaming content is a supplement to the limited OTA shift (aka cord-cutting), as the streaming services are all subscription based and rapidly drive up the costs as you try to replicate what is already available OTA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> From what I've seen, it's the wildly increasing cost of pay TV, whether cable or satellite, that is driving the trend, and it's the proliferation of FREE high-quality digital broadcasts and sub-channels (*) that is enabling the trend. Access to Internet streaming content is a supplement to the limited OTA shift (aka cord-cutting), as the streaming services are all subscription based and rapidly drive up the costs as you try to replicate what is already available OTA.


It's a right-sizing of the market, as for a long time, people who didn't really want cable channels got cable because OTA didn't give them clear reception. Now that digital OTA does, and cable prices have gone way up, people are being smarter about right-sizing their TV packages, or lack thereof. Most of the market is firmly attached to their cord and will continue to be for a long time to come.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> It's a right-sizing of the market, as for a long time, people who didn't really want cable channels got cable because OTA didn't give them clear reception. Now that digital OTA does, and cable prices have gone way up, people are being smarter about right-sizing their TV packages, or lack thereof. Most of the market is firmly attached to their cord and will continue to be for a long time to come.


Concur.


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

I have used OTA for over 30 years, and every since digital TV came into being I have had intermittent reception. Before I got a digital TV I used all kinds of digital converter boxes and indoor, outdoor and combination of antennas. Never have I had consistently great reception. Sometimes I have get great reception on all the channels I watch for weeks, then without any changing of the antennas some channels will start pixelating. I live about 7 miles from the Denver metro area towers. I have found similar problems with family and friends' reception. 

Rather than mandating the change over to digital broadcasting, I think the federal government should have worked out a deal with the broadcasters and cable and satellite companies for free service of basic channels and saved the billions of dollars spent on broadcast change over that has been a bust for most users.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

replaytv said:


> I have used OTA for over 30 years, and every since digital TV came into being I have had intermittent reception. Before I got a digital TV I used all kinds of digital converter boxes and indoor, outdoor and combination of antennas. Never have I had consistently great reception. Sometimes I have get great reception on all the channels I watch for weeks, then without any changing of the antennas some channels will start pixelating. I live about 7 miles from the Denver metro area towers. I have found similar problems with family and friends' reception.
> 
> Rather than mandating the change over to digital broadcasting, I think the federal government should have worked out a deal with the broadcasters and cable and satellite companies for free service of basic channels and saved the billions of dollars spent on broadcast change over that has been a bust for most users.


A bust for most users? Hardly. Most users of OTA get much better picture quality now than they did before the digital conversion. Yes, some people who had a usable analog signal before may no longer have a usable digital signal on some channels, but the is the minority. The majority of OTA users are better off. Not to mention that the digital conversion freed up bandwidth for cellular data, which is a huge benefit to everyone.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> A bust for most users? Hardly. Most users of OTA get much better picture quality now than they did before the digital conversion. Yes, some people who had a usable analog signal before may no longer have a usable digital signal on some channels, but the is the minority. The majority of OTA users are better off. Not to mention that the digital conversion freed up bandwidth for cellular data, which is a huge benefit to everyone.


We should have gone to the standards the Europeans use, which are much more robust, but that's water under the bridge at this point. Free OTA TV is a good thing, even if the networks have fought back against it by moving a lot of content off to cable channels owned by their other arms.


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