# TiVo Competitor SiliconDust Launches OTT Cable Service to Work with Their OTA Tuners and DVR



## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HDHomeRun Launches a Live TV Streaming Service to Take on Sling TV & DIRECTV NOW - Cord Cutters News

Interestingly, this is exactly the sort of thing that several folks on this forum have said they'd like to see TiVo offer, an OTT "streaming cable TV" subscription service that would use the native TiVo UI and DVR controls on the Roamio OTA and other TiVo DVRs.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

How the heck did SiliconDust manage to pull this off when TiVo couldn't. It feels like TiVo is asleep at the wheel.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> How the heck did SiliconDust manage to pull this off when TiVo couldn't. It feels like TiVo is asleep at the wheel.


Yup, I thought the _exact_ same thing!

Couple things I find interesting about this news. First, from a business perspective, that SiliconDust was able to get this deal done (assuming, of course, that this service actually launches). They're a tiny outfit with way less size and influence in the world of broadcast and cable TV than even TiVo.

Second, from a technical perspective, I find it really interesting that -- based on everything I'm reading -- it doesn't appear that these streaming cable channels will use a cloud DVR but will apparently be IP video streams that can be recorded to local hard drives by the HDHomeRun software, and also potentially third-party software that already works with HDHomeRun tuners, such as Plex and Channels! In that particular way, I guess these streaming channels will be like unencrypted, non-copy-restricted QAM cable channels.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> How the heck did SiliconDust manage to pull this off when TiVo couldn't. It feels like TiVo is asleep at the wheel.


TiVo likely couldn't afford to directly compete with their primary customers.


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## mrizzo80 (Apr 17, 2012)

A couple of the channels are questionable - like ESPN Classic and ESPN News. I guess ESPN forced the whole family of networks to get the main ones?

Doesn't TCF have a member that is associated with SD? jafa I think.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Wow. "The service is said to be going live on August 18th 2018." Wow. 

I wonder where users are talking about it

For me the problem would be internet speed, I have $15/mth 3Mbps internet. Works fine and Netflix is often "1080" per the Tivo Info button. To increase Mbps would be a minimum of $40 more per month. So for me it would be $40+$35=$75 per month. Plus equipment.

But if it works with Plex, well, golly it is tempting. Can't wait to read the reviews.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

jth tv said:


> For me the problem would be internet speed, I have $15/mth 3Mbps internet. Works fine and Netflix is often "1080" per the Tivo Info button. To increase Mbps would be a minimum of $40 more per month. So for me it would be $40+$35=$75 per month. Plus equipment.


Right, cable/satellite are not as expensive as people imagine when the cost of alternatives is calculated honestly and completely. If you start with a streaming service, you are committing to a certain level of internet service and managing some kind of infrastructure, so there is startup and ongoing costs. With an antenna, you can start very inexpensively with no ongoing costs. Savings can be used to fund continuous improvement. With a satellite service, there is an ongoing cost, but someone else owns infrastructure and startup costs are usually waved. If you want phone, internet, and premium/sports television, Verizon and Cable are not much more expensive than the alternatives.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Eesh, Tivo's been asleep for more than a decade.

On the SD website: "Works with our DVR service allowing you to record our premium TV channels to watch later."

Hot damn. Local storage is important to me and why I've been reluctant to consider existing streaming services. Their cloud DVRs aren't great and are time limited. At least we now know channels are willing to have their content physically recorded. That gives me hope.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> On the SD website: "Works with our DVR service allowing you to record our premium TV channels to watch later."
> 
> Hot damn. Local storage is important to me and why I've been reluctant to consider existing streaming services. Their cloud DVRs aren't great and are time limited. At least we now know channels are willing to have their content physically recorded.


Do you consider anything in their lineup premium?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

wizwor said:


> Do you consider anything in their lineup premium?


Meh. The service is called Premium TV. Their lineup is "ok". What gets me excited is the ability to record. If channels are willing to be recorded, it sticks a foot in the door for someone like Tivo to partner with a streaming service.

Or if not, it's an alternative to Tivo proper.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Info Via YouTube

"hdhomerun premium" - YouTube


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

wizwor said:


> Do you consider anything in their lineup premium?


Literally any channel that you're paying SD to receive is a premium channel, in contrast to the free OTA channels, even if not by the traditional cable/satellite use of the term.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Any insight what guide data provider SD uses?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

krkaufman said:


> Any insight what guide data provider SD uses?


The episode descriptions shown in this review match Gracenote.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> TiVo likely couldn't afford to directly compete with their primary customers.


Good point. TiVo knows that their future, such as it is, lies in their B2B deals with MVPDs, not the B2C part of their business serving retail customers. So, yeah, launching a direct-to-consumer vMVPD service like this would probably be too risky for TiVo.

Although, that said, it does make one wonder if TiVo might not try to do something like this but offer it not directly to consumers but rather as a white label turnkey platform that smaller MVPDs could resell, letting them sorta get out of the cable TV business. That's basically what MobiTV is now doing, except, of course, they're doing it with cloud DVR rather than local DVR.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> TiVo likely couldn't afford to directly compete with their primary customers.


That's a fair point, that TiVo doesn't want to piss off the cable industry by launching something like this. But now that someone is doing it, TiVo should be able to use that as cover and do it themselves. When questioned, they can just point to SiliconDust and say, "look, we didn't want to do this, but now that someone else is doing it we have to do it too to compete with them".


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Per their Twitter feed, looks like the Channels app, which is a front-end app for HDHomeRun tuners on Apple TV, Fire TV and Android TV, already sorta supports the new HDHomeRun Premium TV service. They say they'll be rolling out updates shortly to make the app's channel guide and DVR work "a little more gracefully" with the new streaming channels.

Meanwhile, HDHomeRun has their own front-end app for various devices (although not Apple TV) which (I would assume) already fully supports their new service.

I've seen no word yet from Plex about if/when their software will support the new service, although it's hard to imagine that they won't. If I had to guess, I'd say that the HDHomeRun tuner (well, not the physical OTA tuner itself, but new firmware that's loaded into the unit) fetches these cable channel streams and then makes them available to the home network via the same DLNA standard which they already use for OTA channel streams. So any front-end viewing app/device that supports DLNA should be able to display these cable channels. (Heck, my old Panasonic Blu-ray player can display OTA TV channels from my HDHomeRun Connect tuner.) I'd say it's really just a matter of whether the front-end app builds in support in their UI/program guide/DVR to accommodate these new channels.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Well, I upgraded the firmware on my HDHomeRun Connect OTA network tuner, and then updated the HDHomeRun app on my Mac, and I was able to sample these new streaming cable channels. Unless you remove/hide them, all of the channels just show up in the program guide in the app and you can tune in any of them for a short live preview.

I was also able to download these live previews within Chrome as .mpg files from the admin page for the tuner. Based on an examination of a couple such files, I was able to determine the following:

First, it looks like all of these channels are being delivered as 720p. Both channels I sampled, MSNBC and AMC, are typically broadcast on traditional cable and satellite in 1080i. But rather than streaming them in 1080p, both were streamed at 720p by HDHomeRun.

The sample for AMC was right at 3 minutes long. The first 2:20 was from their live broadcast of the movie Hancock, complete with some action sequences of Will Smith flying and cars tossed around, etc. The last ~40 seconds of the clip is a pre-recorded ad for the HDHomeRun Premium TV service (which is how they cut off/interrupt every cable channel you start watching if you're not a paying subscriber). It was encoded in h.264 with a total file size of 52.3 MB, which works out to a bitrate of about 2.35 Mb per second (Mbps).

720p in h.264 at only 2.35 Mbps isn't a good bitrate, especially for live content that's encoded on-the-fly, and I could definitely see some ugly compression artifacts in action sequences. Is the picture quality better or worse than Comcast cable (which is pretty bad)? Hard for me to say based on what little I've seen so far. But I feel safe in saying that it falls WAY short of DirecTV Now, which is the only streaming live cable TV service (vMVPD) that I've personally subscribed to so far.

Edit: I have to say, I'm going to like being able to channel surf from my OTA channels through various live cable channels in the Channels app on my Apple TV. I don't plan to subscribe to the service (there's really not that much I care about on basic cable) but it will be nice to hop around sampling 2-3 minutes of various old movies and shows for free. A lot of folks hate channel surfing but, as a child of the '80s, I still enjoy it now and then and that's something that's lost in the world of on-demand apps like Netflix, Hulu, etc.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> 720p in h.264 at only 2.35 Mbps isn't a good bitrate, especially for live content that's encoded on-the-fly, and I could definitely see some ugly compression artifacts in action sequences. Is the picture quality better or worse than Comcast cable (which is pretty bad)? Hard for me to say based on what little I've seen so far. But I feel safe in saying that it falls WAY short of DirecTV Now, which is the only streaming live cable TV service (vMVPD) that I've personally subscribed to so far.


I hate to ask, but is the audio PCM, DD 2.0 or DD 5.1?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> I hate to ask, but is the audio PCM, DD 2.0 or DD 5.1?


Here's the audio info that VLC provides for the file:

Codec: MPEG AAC Audio (mp4a)
Channels: Stereo
Sample Rate: 48000 Hz

I'll also add that, when I played the AMC sample of Hancock back just now, I saw that VLC provides real-time stream info and it appears that it was encoded with a variable bitrate that fluctuated above and below the average of 2.35 Mbps that I calculated.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Here's the audio info that VLC provides for the file:
> 
> Codec: MPEG AAC Audio (mp4a)
> Channels: Stereo
> ...


Any pricing comparisons?


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> I've seen no word yet from Plex about if/when their software will support the new service, although it's hard to imagine that they won't.


The LonTV video showed 'ol Lon pointing a Plex library at the recordings and having them available.

Just having them available to access easily on the HD is a huge plus.

If I were a brand new user looking at my options between Stream+, Tablo, or HDHomeRun, it would be hard to make another choice besides HDHomeRun -- especially if you have other items like a HD already available or other streaming devices.

Of course - the whole thing offends my hardcore cord-cuttin' definition.  So that stops me. But an objective review of the offering sure looks attractive - especially for somebody already moving towards an HDHomeRun solution. I know in my house everybody naturally moved away from the TiVo interface in favor of a Plex one. I could never get people to accept a return to the TiVo interface (especially TE3) - but a side transition from Plex to SiliconDust's offering may be possible. With full integration into Plex, it wouldn't be necessary though.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Sparky1234 said:


> Any pricing comparisons?


Yeah. So this new HDHomeRun Premium TV service costs $35/mo. So that's $5 less than competitors' starting $40 price point. The smallest package of cable channels that you get with YouTube TV, PS Vue and Hulu with Live TV all cost $40/mo now.

But it's really important to understand how much extra you're getting for that $5 from those competing services.

All of the competitors offer some or all of the major HD local channels affiliated with ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and the CW. But this new service from HDHomeRun doesn't offering live streams of any local channels because it assumes that you're getting those for free with an OTA antenna, with those OTA channels getting integrated into the same apps and local DVRs as the streaming cable channels they provide. (And, assuming you get good reception of all the locals you care about, that's not a problem.) But, for a lot of folks, fooling with an OTA antenna is a hassle and reception may be spotty.

All of the competitors also offer some sort of cloud DVR -- although each of them has some sort of drawback, whether it's that you're often forced to watch ads, or that you have very limited recording space, and/or that recordings auto-delete after a certain number of weeks or months.

Meanwhile, this new HDHomeRun Premium TV service does NOT come with either cloud DVR or local DVR service included. But you CAN use it with various local DVR services if you pay extra for that service (from HDHomeRun for $35/yr; from Channels for $80/yr; or -- probably to be announced soon -- from Plex for $40/yr). Also note that, if you go this route, you will need to have the appropriate hardware at your house that can do the actual DVR recording -- a PC, Mac or NAS on your home network that can run the DVR software from HDHomeRun, Channels or Plex.

But a big plus for a few folks is that, with that kind of local DVR, they know that they can store as many recordings as they have hard drive space for, and keep them as long as they want, and they'll always be able to FF through commercials, for no extra fee. (Heck, some DVR software, such as Plex, even supports automatically cutting the ads out of recordings.) You can't say that about any cloud DVR.

Lastly, all of the competitors also include a certain amount of on-demand content. And Hulu includes ALL of the on-demand content (including their original series, movies, etc.) from their base service in with the $40/mo Hulu with Live TV service. Meanwhile, I don't think HDHomeRun Premium TV includes any on-demand content (although perhaps your subscription will allow you to use TV Everywhere apps like Watch ESPN, etc?).

I think this new service may make sense for folks who already run a Plex server at home and are paying for a Plex Pass (or bought a lifetime Plex Pass), since the Plex Pass includes live TV and DVR features, and will presumably fully support these new HDHomeRun Premium TV channels, just as it does OTA channels from their tuners. Likewise folks who already have an HDHomeRun tuner, especially if they're already subscribing to DVR service from HDHomeRun or Channels.

But for most other folks, I think they'd likely be happier just paying the extra $5/mo and going with DTV Now, Hulu Live or PS Vue. And, with any of these options, one has to look at exactly which channels you'd get and which ones you care about...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Another tidbit: I'm reading that this service streams at 30 fps, which isn't great for sports and fact-action stuff. But that does mean that the bitrate I saw (~2.35 Mbps) isn't as bad as I originally thought, because I was thinking about 720p60, not 720p30. Other video quality aspects being equal, one would expect 720p30 to have a bitrate about half that of 720p60.

Comcast now transmits all (or almost all) HD channels in the same codec as HDHomeRun's new service, h.264, but in 720p60 at bitrates around 3.8 Mbps, I believe. Half that would be 1.9 Mbps, the bitrate one would expect for similarly compressed-looking 720p30.

So -- without doing an actual side-by-side comparison of the same live channels from HDHomeRun Premium TV vs. Comcast cable on the same TV -- my expectation is that HDHomeRun Premium TV will look a little sharper/more colorful/less compressed than Comcast but, since it's 30 rather than 60 frames per second, it will also have choppier-looking motion on sports and fast-moving content than Comcast.

Also, Comcast offers DD5.1 surround sound. Don't know yet if HDHomeRun Premium TV does. (My guess is no, based on what I've seen so far, but we'll see...)


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

eherberg said:


> With full integration into Plex...


Are they integratabtle? Or are you just saying IF they were integrated?

I tried out the new service earlier today just as a lark and thought that was fun scanning TCM and such. Then I put away the toys and went on.

But I just saw your post and I'm thinking if I could fully integrate this new service with Plex (beyond merely playing back recordings) that might be interesting.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

I just started testing out the Channels DVR app on HDHomerun OTA with ATV4k and I'm really impressed with how fast the channels changes are. Almost instantly. I haven't recorded yet but this weekend I'll record some stuff and see how the DVR functions. The guide is pretty darn nice.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

i think I'll stick with my OTA Tivo and the more evolved streaming services that have a head start. Recording to a physical dvr with streamed video with reduced video and audio quality ? I'll stick with cloud dvrs for now.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Also, Comcast offers DD5.1 surround sound. Don't know yet if HDHomeRun Premium TV does. (My guess is no, based on what I've seen so far, but we'll see...)


That would be my issue with any streaming service that doesn't offer DD5.1 when available in the source.

Scott


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Channels DVR: The DVR feature is pretty bad and good. Good that it shows all commercials on every channel I recorded and one click skips them and it's a jump not a FF. Bad is I'm having to figure it out. I'm watching it on a ATV4k so it uses swipes from the ATV remote to access certain things and I'm trying to use a Harmony remote. It will take me some time to get all the controls down on the harmony. Over all for watching TV and using the guide it's as smooth and fast as anything I have ever used. When the DVR gets smoothed out it will impress a lot of people I think.


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## Imageek2 (Aug 12, 2002)

mschnebly said:


> Channels DVR: The DVR feature is pretty bad and good. Good that it shows all commercials on every channel I recorded and one click skips them and it's a jump not a FF. Bad is I'm having to figure it out. I'm watching it on a ATV4k so it uses swipes from the ATV remote to access certain things and I'm trying to use a Harmony remote. It will take me some time to get all the controls down on the harmony. Over all for watching TV and using the guide it's as smooth and fast as anything I have ever used. When the DVR gets smoothed out it will impress a lot of people I think.


I have my Harmony working with the Channels DVR. I programmed the Harmony Channel Up/Down buttons to work like TiVo's skip using the ATV's NextChapter/PrevChapter.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Few more things I'm reading:

First, it looks like folks have already found a workaround to get this new service working in Plex (with Plex Pass for live TV and DVR). You have to take your existing set-up for OTA TV with the HDHomeRun, then go into Plex and tell it that instead of OTA that you have clear QAM cable TV, then choose whichever local cable TV provider has most of the channels you receive between OTA and the streaming HDHomeRun Premium TV channels. Then you have to manually map each of those channels you receive to a channel name in Plex's program guide database for the cable provider you chose. But that's just a work-around. I'm sure it won't be long before Plex just automatically recognizes the new streaming cable channels and asks if you want to include them in your program guide/DVR UI.

Second, folks on various forums are complaining about the low bitrate, resulting in macroblocking. (I saw someone else say they're seeing a bitrate of 2.4 Mbps, very close to the 2.35 Mbps bitrate that I calculated.) But HDHomeRun has responded on Twitter by saying that they hope to improve the bitrate going forward. We'll see.

Lastly, folks are also reporting that some channels' feeds are off by 2-3 hours from where they should be for their time zone. It appears that this service is using a jumble of east coast and west coast feeds rather than presenting all east coast feeds for the Eastern and Central time zones and the west coast feed for the Pacific time zone. (BTW, how is this typically handled for the Mountain time zone? Do they get the west coast feed with primetime starting at 9 PM? Or the east coast feed with primetime starting at 6 PM?)


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Few more things I'm reading:
> 
> First, it looks like folks have already found a workaround to get this new service working in Plex (with Plex Pass for live TV and DVR). You have to take your existing set-up for OTA TV with the HDHomeRun, then go into Plex and tell it that instead of OTA that you have clear QAM cable TV, then choose whichever local cable TV provider has most of the channels you receive between OTA and the streaming HDHomeRun Premium TV channels. Then you have to manually map each of those channels you receive to a channel name in Plex's program guide database for the cable provider you chose. But that's just a work-around. I'm sure it won't be long before Plex just automatically recognizes the new streaming cable channels and asks if you want to include them in your program guide/DVR UI.
> 
> ...


Back in the day, they used to say "8/7 Central and Mountain" for a 9 PM ET show (child of the 70s/80s broadcast TV!) so I'd guess it's still the same but now they just say "8/7 Central".


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Where's the content coming from, what are they reselling? As I doubt they have the resources to broker a package like this on their own. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Where's the content coming from, what are they reselling? As I doubt they have the resources to broker a package like this on their own. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


They are petrified of having DRM violations. The CEO once said that a single $250,000,000 fine would bankrupt them. That's the reason they won't record DRM cable card channels to this day. So I'm sure this is an actual above board deal. They don't want to risk getting fined out of existence.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Their website has been updated, it was Coming Soon for a while, now it says Buy Now.
Premium TV - SiliconDust SHOP


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

mdavej said:


> They are petrified of having DRM violations. The CEO once said that a single $250,000,000 fine would bankrupt them. That's the reason they won't record DRM cable card channels to this day. So I'm sure this is an actual above board deal. They don't want to risk getting fined out of existence.


So I wonder who's reselling this. Someone we've never heard of or like a whitelabeled Sling TV? Has anyone compared their line up to others?


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

davezatz said:


> Someone we've never heard of or like a whitelabeled Sling TV? Has anyone compared their line up to others?


It's actualy radically different than SlingTV's $40 orange & blue offering.
*
In common with Sling & Silicon Dust*

A+E Networks ---- A&E
A+E Networks ---- History
A+E Networks ---- Lifetime
AMC Networks Inc. ---- AMC
COMCAST ---- Bravo
COMCAST ---- Syfy
COMCAST ---- USA Network.
Discovery: Scripps Networks Interactive ---- Food Network
Discovery: Scripps Networks Interactive ---- HGTV
Discovery: Scripps Networks Interactive ---- Travel Channel
News Corp ---- FX
News Corp ---- National Geographic Channel
News Corp: Viacom ---- Comedy Central
The Walt Disney Company ---- Disney Channel
The Walt Disney Company ---- ESPN
The Walt Disney Company ---- ESPN2
The Walt Disney Company ---- Freeform
AT&T ---- Cartoon Network
AT&T ---- CNN
AT&T ---- TBS
AT&T ---- TNT
AT&T ---- truTV
Viacom ---- BET

*On Silicon Dust but not on Sling $40 package*

Animal Planet
C-SPAN
CMT
CNBC
Discovery Channel
E!
ESPN Classic
ESPNews
ESPNU
Fox News
Hallmark
HLN
MSNBC
MTV
Nickelodeon
Oprah Winfrey Network
Paramount
QVC
The Weather Channel
TLC
Turner Classic Movies
VH1

*On Sling $40 package  but not on Silicon Dust *

AXS TV Mark Cuban
ACC Atlantic Coast Conference The Walt Disney Company
*BBC America* AMC Networks Inc. (50%)
Bloomberg financial news network
Cheddar financial news network
Cheddar Big News financial news network
Comcast SportsNet COMCAST
EPIX Drive-In Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer
ESPN3 The Walt Disney Company
Flama Univision
Fox (local station)* News Corp
FOX On Demand News Corp
Fox Sports 1 News Corp
Fox Sports 2 News Corp
FXX News Corp
Galavisión Univision
IFC AMC Networks Inc.
Local Now Byron Allen : Entertainment Studios
Nat Geo Wild News Corp
NBC Sports Network COMCAST
NBC† COMCAST
Newsy Discovery: Scripps Networks Interactive
NFL Network National Football League
Nick Jr. Viacom
Tribeca Shortlist De Niro, Rosenthal, and Craig Hatkoff
UniMas Univision
Univision Univision
Viceland VICE Media
I suspect Homerun Premiere will have little or no effect on the larger market since it is restricted to HDHomeRun CONNECT or EXTEND owners. Only 1 Subscription needed per entire household for up to 4 streaming channels throughout the home. The extra streaming channel seems to be the primary feature that is of general interest. Depending on the security you might be able to extend use to a family which does not live together (including college children).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

davezatz said:


> Where's the content coming from, what are they reselling? As I doubt they have the resources to broker a package like this on their own. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


Someone on some forum speculated that they're reselling service from some outfit called Viva Live TV. Don't know if that's true but their website does advertise a very similar package of cable channels (except they include the major broadcast nets too) for the same price as HDHomeRun Premium TV -- $35.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This is how you prevent yourself from going out of business when CableCARD dies! Good job SD!

Anyone have it up and running? Are all the recordings encrypted? Or can they be played in other players? (IIRC SD DVR recordings are just TS with special metadata packets)


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> This is how you prevent yourself from going out of business when CableCARD dies! Good job SD!
> 
> Anyone have it up and running? Are all the recordings encrypted? Or can they be played in other players? (IIRC SD DVR recordings are just TS with special metadata packets)


It's confirmed that these live streams, and recordings of them, can be played within the Channels and Plex apps. I'm pretty sure it's just a standard non-encrypted h.264-encoded MPEG stream.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Back in the day, they used to say "8/7 Central and Mountain" for a 9 PM ET show (child of the 70s/80s broadcast TV!) so I'd guess it's still the same but now they just say "8/7 Central".


Hmm. So I guess those local stations in Denver and the rest of the Mountain time zone just record the east coast network feeds from their big dishes and hold them for an hour before inserting into their own local broadcasts.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> It's confirmed that these live streams, and recordings of them, can be played within the Channels and Plex apps. I'm pretty sure it's just a standard non-encrypted h.264-encoded MPEG stream.


Awesome!

I wonder if TiVo could make a deal with the same company? Could save their retail market.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> It's confirmed that these live streams, and recordings of them, can be played within the Channels and Plex apps. I'm pretty sure it's just a standard non-encrypted h.264-encoded MPEG stream.


Including on Tivo as I was surprised to see. I've also played the files with a number of players and they seem pretty plain vanilla standard.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. So I guess those local stations in Denver and the rest of the Mountain time zone just record the east coast network feeds from their big dishes and hold them for an hour before inserting into their own local broadcasts.


Could be. As another aside, I've read that 75% of all TVs in the US are in Eastern or Central time so most broadcasters don't care about Mountain or West Coast time zones.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Imageek2 said:


> I have my Harmony working with the Channels DVR. I programmed the Harmony Channel Up/Down buttons to work like TiVo's skip using the ATV's NextChapter/PrevChapter.


 I finally got some time and worked a few more thing out too. Overall it's working pretty darn good. And real good for a opening start. I'm betting this will get a lot better really fast.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

This is the only legitimate streaming service that's offering local recording capability without DRM. That's huge.


NashGuy said:


> Yeah. So this new HDHomeRun Premium TV service costs $35/mo. So that's $5 less than competitors' starting $40 price point. The smallest package of cable channels that you get with YouTube TV, PS Vue and Hulu with Live TV all cost $40/mo now.
> 
> ..
> 
> ...


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mlcarson said:


> This is the only legitimate streaming service that's offering local recording capability without DRM. That's huge.


Big step. Playon and Playon Cloud have some advantages: Amazon Prime, Showtime and HBO, for example, but you have to have your own subscriptions for the Playon/Playon Cloud to do the local recordings.

EDITED TO ADD: After playing with this new service for a couple of days now, it's a good start. But it's no Tivo. Like the early days of the cable company-supplied Tivo imitations, impressive as hell that it works _at all_ but with the balkiness, lack of features and missed recordings, more a curiosity than something you'd really want to use if there were an alternative. Which there probably will be now that the dam has broken.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> This is the only legitimate streaming service that's offering local recording capability without DRM. That's huge.


Oh, yes, it's absolutely one of the main aspects of this service that distinguishes it from all other OTT options. That and the fact that the streams are in a standard non-encrypted format that is accessible by third-party apps.

That said, I think the fact that it offers local recording capability without DRM isn't something that the vast majority of cord-cutters or other potential subscribers cares much about (or even understands). Folks like us (who post on forums like this one) get the appeal, so there's definitely a niche to be served there, but I still stand by my assertion that other options at $40 (with streaming locals, cloud DVR and on-demand included) make more sense for the average bear than does this service at $35.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

What Silicone Dust needs now is a Tablo like DVR that bundles OTA recording and this new service into a single device, then allows access to that device via an app available on popular "streaming stick" devices. If they could pull that off I might seriously consider ditching my TiVos. Right now setting up an HDHomeRun with a PC acting as the DVR and then using Plex or Kodi to stream to a TV is a bit to cumbersome. But if they could budle it all into an easy to use package I could be on board.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> What Silicone Dust needs now is a Tablo like DVR that bundles OTA recording and this new service into a single device, then allows access to that device via an app available on popular "streaming stick" devices. If they could pull that off I might seriously consider ditching my TiVos. Right now setting up an HDHomeRun with a PC acting as the DVR and then using Plex or Kodi to stream to a TV is a bit to cumbersome. But if they could budle it all into an easy to use package I could be on board.


Yep. It's called the HDHomeRun Duo+ and it should be coming out any time now.

HDHomeRun Connect Duo+ is an OTA DVR


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Yep. It's called the HDHomeRun Duo+ and it should be coming out any time now.
> 
> HDHomeRun Connect Duo+ is an OTA DVR


Well sh*t, they've done everything TiVo shoulda done. Looks like they're on the ball. Good for them.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Yep. It's called the HDHomeRun Duo+ and it should be coming out any time now.
> 
> HDHomeRun Connect Duo+ is an OTA DVR


Add 4 to 6 channel recording capability and increased hard drive options like off load to PC, then you have a winner. How well does HDHomeRun stream outside the home?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Sparky1234 said:


> Add 4 to 6 channel recording capability and increased hard drive options like off load to PC, then you have a winner. How well does HDHomeRun stream outside the home?


HDHomeRun Quatro has 4 tuners and is already designed to work with a NAS, so you can do whatever you wish. You could also use multiple HomeRuns if you need more tuners. Back when I ran Windows Media Center with HDHomeRuns and Cetons, at one point I had 12 tuners. Way more than I needed but I was briefly trying different ones to see what worked best.

Some are using the HDHomeRun Viewer Plex plug-in to stream live TV outside their LAN and it apparently works fine. I've never tried it myself. There are probably other ways to do it as well.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

The Connect Duo+ that they announced back in Jan. at CES (to be released "mid-2018") is only slated to contain a 250GB hard drive. Not great for MPEG-2 OTA TV (about 60 hrs. worth of HD OTA) but not too bad for their MPEG-4 h.264 streaming cable TV (I'd guess about 180 hrs. at the existing bitrate). If they're smart, they'll stick a USB 3.0 port on the back of it so that users can attach their own external storage to increase capacity.

As for the unit only having two tuners, I would imagine that this new Duo+ will work in conjunction with any other HDHomeRun tuners on the same network (like the regular 2-tuner Connect Duo and the regular 4-tuner Connect Quattro), so that recordings can be made from those additional tuners too. All their current model tuners are "stackable" in this way. Also, keep in mind that their new streaming cable service doesn't use tuners, since it's IP-based. My understanding is that the service allows 4 different channels to be accessed simultaneously. So if you have that service through a Connect Duo or Connect Duo+, you should able to to watch/record 6 different channels simultaneously (2 OTA channels + 4 cable channels).


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

This will be an interesting solution When Plex officially supports it. But will have to look at the cost + how much bandwidth it will use to compare to paying for cable since you at least catch a break there.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> The Connect Duo+ that they announced back in Jan. at CES (to be released "mid-2018") is only slated to contain a 250GB hard drive. Not great for MPEG-2 OTA TV (about 60 hrs. worth of HD OTA) but not too bad for their MPEG-4 h.264 streaming cable TV (I'd guess about 180 hrs. at the existing bitrate)


Since it's Tablo like and uses "stream sticks" as the front end it will need to recode the OTA to H.264. Those "streaming stick" devices don't typically support MPEG-2 or interlaced video. They're also typically wifi so a high bitrate MPEG-2 video may not stream well even on devices that do.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

mdavej said:


> HDHomeRun Quatro has 4 tuners and is already designed to work with a NAS, so you can do whatever you wish. You could also use multiple HomeRuns if you need more tuners. Back when I ran Windows Media Center with HDHomeRuns and Cetons, at one point I had 12 tuners. Way more than I needed but I was briefly trying different ones to see what worked best.
> 
> Some are using the HDHomeRun Viewer Plex plug-in to stream live TV outside their LAN and it apparently works fine. I've never tried it myself. There are probably other ways to do it as well.


You don't need a plug-in anymore, HDHomeRuns work natively with Plex's Live TV system and out of home streaming works flawlessly. The premium channels will work as well, but Plex needs to do some updates to make it work seamlessly. It can be made to work right now, but takes some channel mapping trickery to convince Plex to download the guide data and it's not always 100% correct for each region.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Since it's Tablo like and uses "stream sticks" as the front end it will need to recode the OTA to H.264. Those "streaming stick" devices don't typically support MPEG-2 or interlaced video. They're also typically wifi so a high bitrate MPEG-2 video may not stream well even on devices that do.


Hmm. I don't know. They have only one OTA tuner on the market currently -- the HDHomeRun Extend -- that takes the original MPEG-2 OTA stream and transcodes it to MPEG-4 h.264. And they advertise that feature primarily as a way to use the device with slower (sub-AC) wi-fi networks. Here's their note:

_Unlike the CONNECT and PRIME which only stream raw mpeg2 HD streams, the EXTEND features a hardware h264 transcoder which can compress video in real-time for lower bandwidth usage.

Note that the h264 transcoder built into the EXTEND results in a larger and more expensive device (which is otherwise equivalent to the CONNECT).

If you are using a wired network or a latest-generation wireless network over a short distance, we recommend the cheaper CONNECT.

If you are using legacy wifi, or have multiple televisions spread out over a large house, we recommend the EXTEND to reduce the bandwidth required between your media devices eg. Nvidia Shield, iOS/tvOS and your HDHomeRun._​
Given that they're using the "Connect" branding with this upcoming Connect Duo+ device, I'd be surprised if it has hardware transcoding capabilities. I know the Apple TV and the Nvidia Shield Android TV devices can handle interlaced HD (1080i) content in the original MPEG-2 format just fine. My old Nexus 9 Android tablet also handles it fine. But I know that Rokus can't, which is presumably why HDHomeRun doesn't have an app for Roku. They do have an app for Fire TV (excluding the original generation stick), so I'd say that hardware doesn't need transcoding either.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

OrangeCrush said:


> You don't need a plug-in anymore, HDHomeRuns work natively with Plex's Live TV system and out of home streaming works flawlessly.  The premium channels will work as well, but Plex needs to do some updates to make it work seamlessly. It can be made to work right now, but takes some channel mapping trickery to convince Plex to download the guide data and it's not always 100% correct for each region.


Yeah. And even the Channels app on my Apple TV -- which quickly jumped on this new service and already officially supports it -- still hasn't gotten all the details nailed down. I clicked on one of the streaming channels in the channel grid guide yesterday to check it out and instead it started playing one of my local OTA channels. Oops! Guess they had something off in their channel mapping database.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

NashGuy said:


> Given that they're using the "Connect" branding with this upcoming Connect Duo+ device, I'd be surprised if it has hardware transcoding capabilities. I know the Apple TV and the Nvidia Shield Android TV devices can handle interlaced HD (1080i) content in the original MPEG-2 format just fine. My old Nexus 9 Android tablet also handles it fine. But I know that Rokus can't, which is presumably why HDHomeRun doesn't have an app for Roku. They do have an app for Fire TV (excluding the original generation stick), so I'd say that hardware doesn't need transcoding either.


I think the Extends are on their way out. The hardware transcoding on the fly was really only useful over a slower wifi network. Now that Wireless AC is more or less ubiquitous, and all the major platforms (except Roku ) support native MPEG2/AC3, slinging around the full-fat streams wirelessly isn't really a problem anymore. And if you run it all through a DVR server like Plex, the server's going to do whatever transcoding it needs anyway.

And that is exactly why there's no first-party Roku app. While they could hypothetically play the MPEG4 streams the Extend's hardware transcoder puts out, the Rokus won't decode AC3 audio. Only way to get HDHomeRun on a Roku is to run it through a different transcoder and third party application (like Plex or Emby). What's especially annoying is that all the modern Rokus have the hardware to decode MPEG-2 and AC3 just fine, and the TV sets with Rokus built in are literally doing that for their own OTA tuners, but the function isn't available to other apps. Probably some braindead patent nonsense that Roku refuses to pay the toll on.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. I don't know. They have only one OTA tuner on the market currently -- the HDHomeRun Extend -- that takes the original MPEG-2 OTA stream and transcodes it to MPEG-4 h.264. And they advertise that feature primarily as a way to use the device with slower (sub-AC) wi-fi networks. Here's their note:
> 
> _Unlike the CONNECT and PRIME which only stream raw mpeg2 HD streams, the EXTEND features a hardware h264 transcoder which can compress video in real-time for lower bandwidth usage.
> 
> ...


Most mobile devices also reject interlaced video. Transcoding also gives them a lot more hours on that 250GB HDD.

Tablos transcode.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> Most mobile devices also reject interlaced video. Transcoding also gives them a lot more hours on that 250GB HDD.
> 
> Tablos transcode.


Yes, I've heard that a number of devices have problems w/ interlaced video (which is why everything that streams online is progressive scan). That said, my Android phone (Nexus 5X) and tablet (Nexus 9) are a each a few years old and both do fine with 1080i in the HDHomeRun app. They are both on Android 8 Oreo, FWIW, though.

I had a Tablo for a little while and, honestly, if it offered the option to turn off transcoding, I would have done so in order to make channel changes faster and HD PQ slightly better.

With something like Plex, you get the best of both worlds. By default, OTA channels are recorded in the original MPEG-2 and only transcoded on-the-fly if the device playing the file back needs it to be. But I think Plex DVR may offer the option to automatically transcode files after the recording completes, to save disk space and reduce the need for future transcoding, if that's what you prefer.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Seems easier to just transcode during recording, but SD is a bit more of a "geek" company than TiVo, so they may offer options.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

NashGuy said:


> But I think Plex DVR may offer the option to automatically transcode files after the recording completes, to save disk space and reduce the need for future transcoding, if that's what you prefer.


It does. I have a couple of HDHomeRun Extends, and the Plex DVR can be set up to record the full MPEG2 streams (or take the hardware transcoded streams if you really want it to) and then cut out the commercials and transcode after the fact. You can use their 'optimize' defaults or set up custom scripts to get as fine control as you like.



Dan203 said:


> Seems easier to just transcode during recording, but SD is a bit more of a "geek" company than TiVo, so they may offer options.


The embedded processors in these devices need to support hardware transcoding to pull it off. They're not powerful enough to transcode an HD stream (realtime) with software alone, so it's a choice between the cost of the device vs the cost of the device with transcoding hardware baked in. The HDHomerun Connects are about half the price as the Extends (but I think they've stopped making the Extends, which is probably pushing prices higher than they'd be if they were still in production).


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Their channel lineup SUCKS. YouTube TV is perfectly targeted at what should be live (news and sports), while DirecTV NOW and PS Vue have a lot of good options, even though they get rather bloated. I'll stick to my TiVo, and if I want live sports/news, I'll get another service on my Roku.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Their channel lineup SUCKS. YouTube TV is perfectly targeted at what should be live (news and sports), while DirecTV NOW and PS Vue have a lot of good options, even though they get rather bloated. I'll stick to my TiVo, and if I want live sports/news, I'll get another service on my Roku.


The majority of people don't watch sports, so not having to pay for all the overpriced sports channels can be a positive. And if you're able to record the streams, then live TV watching isn't really the point.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Bigg said:


> Their channel lineup SUCKS. YouTube TV is perfectly targeted at what should be live (news and sports), while DirecTV NOW and PS Vue have a lot of good options, even though they get rather bloated. I'll stick to my TiVo, and if I want live sports/news, I'll get another service on my Roku.


I'm trying to decide between YouTube TV or DirectTV Now. I'm ditching Comcast cable and just going to their $66 60 Mbps internet and my Antenna using Channels DVR on an ATV4k. Hope the 1TB limit doesnt kill me but I can adapt.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> I'm trying to decide between YouTube TV or DirectTV Now. I'm ditching Comcast cable and just going to their $66 60 Mbps internet and my Antenna using Channels DVR on an ATV4k. Hope the 1TB limit doesnt kill me but I can adapt.


I've been using a combination of mostly streaming (mostly HD, some 4K) plus some live/recorded OTA for a long while now and I've never once even hit half of my monthly 1TB data cap. I think I average about 375GB per month. That said, I don't do online gaming or tend to download a ton of huge files and only stream music now and then. But I do have the TV on for a few hours almost every day.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The majority of people don't watch sports, so not having to pay for all the overpriced sports channels can be a positive. And if you're able to record the streams, then live TV watching isn't really the point.


HDHomeRun should look into creating another package that's sports-free and cheaper. The only real sports channels their current Premium TV line-up includes are the various ESPN channels (ESPN, ESPN 2, ESPNews, ESPN Classic, ESPN U). Taking those out of a new 2nd package would probably mean all of the Disney-owned channels going away, which would also mean Disney Channel, Freeform and (soon) FX and Nat Geo.

Taking out those 9 channels should reduce the cost of the package significantly. They could probably add in 3 or 4 low-cost non-sports channels (e.g. Hallmark Movies & Mysteries, TV Land, Nick Jr., Sundance) and still price the package at $25 - $27 rather than the $35 for the current package.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> HDHomeRun should look into creating another package that's sports-free and cheaper. The only real sports channels their current Premium TV line-up includes are the various ESPN channels (ESPN, ESPN 2, ESPNews, ESPN Classic, ESPN U). Taking those out of a new 2nd package would probably mean all of the Disney-owned channels going away, which would also mean Disney Channel, Freeform and (soon) FX and Nat Geo.
> 
> Taking out those 9 channels should reduce the cost of the package significantly. They could probably add in 3 or 4 low-cost non-sports channels (e.g. Hallmark Movies & Mysteries, TV Land, Nick Jr., Sundance) and still price the package at $25 - $27 rather than the $35 for the current package.


They probably don't have much control over what's in the actual lineup. According to Zatz, they are piggybacking off of Viva Live TV, which I have actually never heard of before.

Silicon Dust Does What TiVo Could Not


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> They probably don't have much control over what's in the actual lineup. According to Zatz, they are piggybacking off of Viva Live TV, which I have actually never heard of before.
> 
> Silicon Dust Does What TiVo Could Not


Yeah, Zatz got that from something that I posted earlier on this thread in response to his question. But we don't really know that SD is going through Viva. That's just conjecture.

Even if they are, then Viva should try to negotiate a cheaper non-ESPN/Disney package. Or, if this package gets a decent number of subscribers, perhaps SD could build such a package on their own, apart from Viva. I had honestly never heard of Viva until recently and their website doesn't make them appear to be some sort of big, established industry player. So if they can somehow do it, why not SD?


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> HDHomeRun should look into creating another package that's sports-free and cheaper. ...


I haven't looked into this topic in a while but back in the day ESPN forced carriers to include ESPN channels in their basic tier through predatory pricing and mafia tactics.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ah30k said:


> I haven't looked into this topic in a while but back in the day ESPN forced carriers to include ESPN channels in their basic tier through predatory pricing and mafia tactics.


Yeah, but if a carrier chooses not to include ANY channels -- either cable or locals -- from Disney (the company that owns ESPN), then there's not really anything they can do. You're just choosing not to do business with Disney. That's the case with both Fubo TV and Philo. It's also true of Sling TV's Blue base package.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I wish viewing rights for any given channel/content were separated from the delivery of that content to be viewed. If something like VivaLive were the source of Silicon Dust's underlying content, what if you already subscribed to some service also using that source; now you're left buying it twice when you might want to try out other services.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, but if a carrier chooses not to include ANY channels -- either cable or locals -- from Disney (the company that owns ESPN), then there's not really anything they can do. You're just choosing not to do business with Disney. That's the case with both Fubo TV and Philo. It's also true of Sling TV's Blue base package.


They would have to drop ESPN, ESPN2, The Disney Channel, Freeform and possibly A&E* to not do any business with Disney.

* Disney owns a 50% stake in A&E. I'm not sure if it's one of the channels that is bundled with ESPN though


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> They would have to drop ESPN, ESPN2, The Disney Channel, Freeform and possibly A&E* to not do any business with Disney.


Yep. Along with ESPNews, ESPN Classic and ESPN U. And since Disney is in the process of acquiring most of the cable nets currently owned by Fox, also FX and Nat Geo.



Dan203 said:


> * Disney owns a 50% stake in A&E. I'm not sure if it's one of the channels that is bundled with ESPN though


A+E Networks (which includes A&E, History and Lifetime) acts as its own independent entity in these situations. They don't bundle in with those channels 100% owned by Disney. So they shouldn't be affected.


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## Scooter Scott (Jun 1, 2015)

Since I've been slowly building out my HDHomeRun solution I find this to be very intriguing and almost to the point to better my decision on dropping TiVo.


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## hooper (Sep 22, 2007)

OrangeCrush said:


> I think the Extends are on their way out. The hardware transcoding on the fly was really only useful over a slower wifi network. Now that Wireless AC is more or less ubiquitous, and all the major platforms (except Roku ) support native MPEG2/AC3, slinging around the full-fat streams wirelessly isn't really a problem anymore. And if you run it all through a DVR server like Plex, the server's going to do whatever transcoding it needs anyway.
> 
> And that is exactly why there's no first-party Roku app. While they could hypothetically play the MPEG4 streams the Extend's hardware transcoder puts out, the Rokus won't decode AC3 audio. Only way to get HDHomeRun on a Roku is to run it through a different transcoder and third party application (like Plex or Emby). What's especially annoying is that all the modern Rokus have the hardware to decode MPEG-2 and AC3 just fine, and the TV sets with Rokus built in are literally doing that for their own OTA tuners, but the function isn't available to other apps. Probably some braindead patent nonsense that Roku refuses to pay the toll on.


The extends are actually more versatile as they can pass through or transcode. When they transcode rokus can direct play the files in Plex. This saves a lot of computing resources that you can better use for mobile transcoding sessions or commercial skip . It also allows you to run the server on much lower end hardware like a NAS or old laptop.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

How is this a Tivo competitor? Tivo connects to my TV and plays and records shows, cable or OTA. As far as I can tell this does not connect to my TV without going through a computer. It also requires a separate hard drive from the unit. It is more for watching TV on a computer. What am I missing?

I do think it looks fun for a gadget person who doesn't mind spending a lot of money and time to get this as a useful thing, but hardly mainstream.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

No computer required. Just a streamer like Roku, Android, Apple, etc.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

The Roku can play recorded content and live cable tv with pause? I was looking at this a month ago but did not see how the Roku could use it, the Cable TV version.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

This sounds too good to be true. There has to be a catch.

The architecture would seem to indicate that trick play and commercial skip would not match what Tivo has to offer.

Hard drive compatibility and reliability could be a major factor. SD has no control over the hard drive, but when hard drives fail they will receive many customer service complaints and pass the buck to the hard drive manufacturer.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

schatham said:


> The Roku can play recorded content and live cable tv with pause? I was looking at this a month ago but did not see how the Roku could use it, the Cable TV version.


Maybe. You're right there is no HDHomeRun Roku app that I know of. But there are other Roku apps for other DVR programs like Plex and Channels. I'm pretty sure Plex is fully functional on Roku, haven't looked into Channels lately. HDHomeRun app is fully functional on Android/Fire TV. I'm pausing and resuming live tv right now on my homerun via the Fire TV app. But only OTA, I don't have cable anymore.

The "cable tv" part is where it gets complicated. This new "premium" streaming service which is the subject of this thread should let your record then chase for pause, etc. on "cable tv" channels via the OTT service. But actual cable tv via prime and cable card has had trick play in the HDHomeRun app for quite a while now (years?), EXCEPT for copy protected content. That still only works in Windows Media Center.

I think it's their new "premium" OTT service that makes them worth a second look right now.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

schatham said:


> How is this a Tivo competitor? Tivo connects to my TV and plays and records shows, cable or OTA. As far as I can tell this does not connect to my TV without going through a computer. It also requires a separate hard drive from the unit. It is more for watching TV on a computer. What am I missing?
> 
> I do think it looks fun for a gadget person who doesn't mind spending a lot of money and time to get this as a useful thing, but hardly mainstream.


SiliconDust's HDHomeRun products and services are not a direct competitor to TiVo (yet) since, as you point out, you do need another device on your home network (PC, Mac or NAS) in order to record. But, at least for tech-savvy folks, they do represent a competing retail option vs. TiVos. I used to have a TiVo but sold it and bought an HDHomeRun tuner.



mdavej said:


> No computer required. Just a streamer like Roku, Android, Apple, etc.


As of now, you DO need a computer or NAS (network attached storage) device for DVR capabilities with an HDHomeRun tuner. (OK, there is an exception to that rule: Android TV devices with connected or built-in storage, such as the Nvidia Shield TV can use Google's own Live Channels app -- which apparently offers a free program guide and free basic DVR features -- with an HDHomeRun network tuner. No idea how/if Live Channels currently supports the new Premium TV streaming channels.)

However, at the start of the year, SiliconDust announced that they were working on a "single box" DVR solution that would include their network tuners plus a hard drive and their software. With that forthcoming product (which was slated for "mid-2018" release), no, you would not need a separate computer for DVR. Although, yes, you still would need a streaming device connected to your TV, such as an Apple TV or Fire TV, which I guess would make the upcoming product more of a direct competitor to Tablo than TiVo.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> As of now, you DO need a computer or NAS (network attached storage) device for DVR capabilities with an HDHomeRun tuner. (OK, there is an exception to that rule: Android TV devices with connected or built-in storage, such as the Nvidia Shield TV can use Google's own Live Channels app -- which apparently offers a free program guide and free basic DVR features -- with an HDHomeRun network tuner. No idea how/if Live Channels currently supports the new Premium TV streaming channels.)


Yeah, but the OP asked if you needed a computer. The answer to that is still no. Yes, you need some storage of some type, but not necessarily a computer, as you already know.

I'm currently running the HomeRun DVR app and a Homerun tuner on another exception, the Channel Master Stream+, and recording on my USB connected HDD. No computer involved in my case either.

I also run Live Channels, and I'm torn. Live Channels is a far better app than HDHomeRun in every respect except reliability. I haven't quite found the culprit (could be hardware), but it was unreliable enough (missed or partial recordings about 5-10% of the time) that I went to the trouble and expense of trying the HomeRun again after about a 5 year run with Primes several years ago when I ran WMC. So far I'm not impressed in the least.

If "Premium" has a free trial, I could sign up and test it with Live Channels.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mdavej said:


> I'm currently running the HomeRun DVR app and a Homerun tuner on another exception, the Channel Master Stream+, and recording on my USB connected HDD. No computer involved in my case either.
> 
> I also run Live Channels, and I'm torn. Live Channels is a far better app than HDHomeRun in every respect except reliability. I haven't quite found the culprit (could be hardware), but it was unreliable enough (missed or partial recordings about 5-10% of the time) that I went to the trouble and expense of trying the HomeRun again after about a 5 year run with Primes several years ago when I ran WMC. So far I'm not impressed in the least.
> 
> If "Premium" has a free trial, I could sign up and test it with Live Channels.


Yeah, the Stream+ is another Android TV box (covered under the exception I noted above). Although, given that it contains two built-in OTA tuners, why are you using the external network tuners from HDHomeRun? Are you saying that the Live Channels DVR was missing recordings using the internal tuners, so now you're using Live Channels DVR but with the external HDHomeRun tuners? Or you're now using the HDHomeRun DVR app with their external tuners? Sorry, I'm confused.

As for the Premium TV service, nope, doesn't look like there's the typical free one-week trial. In lieu of that, they're offering free 2-3 minute "trials" of each channel whenever you want. (Well, after you watch a trial of a channel, you can't switch away and back to it to resume watching right away. I tried, just to see. But awhile later, you can.)


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Live Channels on the Stream+ can only record from the internal tuners. So I have to use some other app with the Homerun tuners. In any case, I've already pretty much given up on the Homerun app, ergo the Homerun tuners as well.

I'll see what I can do with the mini trial.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mdavej said:


> Live Channels on the Stream+ can only record from the internal tuners. So I have to use some other app with the Homerun tuners. In any case, I've already pretty much given up on the Homerun app, ergo the Homerun tuners as well.
> 
> I'll see what I can do with the mini trial.


Have you tried the Channels app for Android TV? It works with the HDHomeRun tuners. If you sign up for their DVR service ($8/mo), the first month is free and you can download and install the app for free too. (To use the Channels app without DVR service -- just for live TV -- requires purchasing the app up-front for a one-time cost of $25.)


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

hooper said:


> The extends are actually more versatile as they can pass through or transcode. When they transcode rokus can direct play the files in Plex. This saves a lot of computing resources that you can better use for mobile transcoding sessions or commercial skip . It also allows you to run the server on much lower end hardware like a NAS or old laptop.


It's not quite direct play--the Plex server still has to transcode the audio. CPU impact is negligible and I'm not sure if the embedded/NAS versions of Plex can do it in all editions.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

mdavej said:


> No computer required. Just a streamer like Roku, Android, Apple, etc.


Roku's can't stream directly. They need something in the middle to help them (i.e. Plex server).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

OrangeCrush said:


> Roku's can't stream directly. They need something in the middle to help them (i.e. Plex server).


As pointed out up thread Silicone Dust is planning on releasing a complete DVR with an app that runs on "streamers". (ala Tablo) So no computer or Plex Server will be required.

As of right now this service works with their existing tuners which do require a computer.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Here's a review of HDHomeRun Premium TV over at TechHive:
HDHomeRun Premium TV could be the holy grail for antenna users

BTW, after some additional sampling of various channels on the service in the past week or so, I have to say that the HD picture quality is, IMO, bad enough to outweigh whatever benefits that this service might have over other "streaming cable TV" services like YouTube TV, DirecTV Now, and Hulu with Live TV. I repeatedly saw _significant_ macroblocking and other ugly compression artifacts. And that's on top of the fact that these streaming channels from HDHomeRun are at only 30 frames per second rather than 60, resulting in choppy-looking motion on non-film-based material like sports, news and talk shows.

HDHomeRun is aware of negative feedback on those issues and, while they've made comments indicating that the problems might be addressed in the future, I wouldn't hold my breath given that another company, not HDHomeRun, is apparently in charge of creating the source streams. HDHomeRun is just packaging up the channels from that other company and selling them to customers.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

This product seems very "half-baked" at this point. I'm hesitant to even consider this a direct competitor to TiVo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The DVR is still really "half baked". But the skinny bundle is unique in that it allows recording of the channels to unencrypted local files. That's what makes this promising. It says they're working on a major overhaul of the DVR right now, so maybe they'll fix the current issues and make the DVR more usable.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The majority of people don't watch sports, so not having to pay for all the overpriced sports channels can be a positive. And if you're able to record the streams, then live TV watching isn't really the point.


Then they probably don't need pay TV in the first place, unless they are cable news junkies and willing to pay through the nose for news. YouTube TV is incredibly well targeted to live news and sports, and DirecTV Now and others are fairly well targeted as well, as those are the two things that you can't get through OTT SVOD and OTA.



NashGuy said:


> I've been using a combination of mostly streaming (mostly HD, some 4K) plus some live/recorded OTA for a long while now and I've never once even hit half of my monthly 1TB data cap. I think I average about 375GB per month. That said, I don't do online gaming or tend to download a ton of huge files and only stream music now and then. But I do have the TV on for a few hours almost every day.


I've been chewing through 300-400GB/mo without a lot of TV streaming, but I also stream music all the time, I have a bunch of machines that need software updates frequently, and I often stream CNN on a second monitor for hours on end so it does add up after a while. I don't have a cap, but if I did, I might start being slightly more careful about data usage.



schatham said:


> How is this a Tivo competitor? Tivo connects to my TV and plays and records shows, cable or OTA. As far as I can tell this does not connect to my TV without going through a computer. It also requires a separate hard drive from the unit. It is more for watching TV on a computer. What am I missing?
> 
> I do think it looks fun for a gadget person who doesn't mind spending a lot of money and time to get this as a useful thing, but hardly mainstream.


TiVo isn't exactly mainstream either, although I'm not going anywhere, at least for OTA, as I like something that's dead simple and just WORKS. I love playing around with computers and tech, and I'm transitioning into a tech field, but at the same time, when I want to veg out on the couch and watch TV, I just want it to be simple and WORK.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

I just dropped my Comcast TV and spent some time with one of the Comcast support folks on their support forums. After a few days of going back and forth they came up with Performance Plus Internet @ 60Mbps for $39.99 and $2.25 tax and fees. I had their 105Mbps and it was never really utilized. Since I just do web surfing, Pandora and 1080 video streaming I jumped on it. They also offered this incase it wasn't enough. WTH? Why did they never show me this before?

Performance Plus Internet + speed increase to Performance Pro Internet
For Only $54.99 A month for 12 months with a one-year term agreement
· Great for gaming, downloading HD movies, and fast speeds that connect the whole family
· Up to 150 Mbps download speeds
· Constant Guard® unmatched online security

I am already running Channels DVR with my antenna getting 30 or so locals stations crystal clear. So, with internet I'm going to try some of the live video packages and see what works for me.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> I just dropped my Comcast TV and spent some time with one of the Comcast support folks on their support forums. After a few days of going back and forth they came up with Performance Plus Internet @ 60Mbps for $39.99 and $2.25 tax and fees. I had their 105Mbps and it was never really utilized. Since I just do web surfing, Pandora and 1080 video streaming I jumped on it. They also offered this incase it wasn't enough. WTH? Why did they never show me this before?
> 
> Performance Plus Internet + speed increase to Performance Pro Internet
> For Only $54.99 A month for 12 months with a one-year term agreement
> ...


Dealing with Comcast sales is like shopping on a used car lot. (And that may be unfair to used car salesmen.) I wasn't aware of speed tiers called "Performance Plus" or "Performance Pro". (Actually, maybe we used to have those designations in this area but not any more?) Is that $40/mo rate for just the first 12 months? I'm guessing so. Still, though, it's a good deal.

Around here, there's Performance Starter (25 Mbps) for $50, Performance (60 Mbps) for $70, Blast (150 Mbps) for $80, Extreme (250 Mbps) for $90, and Gigabit for $140. Those are standard non-promo prices and do not include the additional $11 gateway rental fee if you don't have your own equipment. Some of those tiers are offered as standalone products with reduced initial pricing if you sign a 1 or 2-year contract.

60 Mbps will honestly be way more than you need, it sounds like. Heck, for HD streaming, you'd be fine at 25 Mbps. I have 50 Mbps with AT&T and never have a problem with 4K streaming, even 4K Dolby Vision from Apple, which is probably the highest bitrate streaming source around.

If you're shopping for a live streaming "cable" service, I recommend the following site, which lets you designate which channels are important to you, then it shows you which packages have them and how much they cost: Suppose... you could design your perfect TV service


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> Dealing with Comcast sales is like shopping on a used car lot. (And that may be unfair to used car salesmen.) I wasn't aware of speed tiers called "Performance Plus" or "Performance Pro". (Actually, maybe we used to have those designations in this area but not any more?) Is that $40/mo rate for just the first 12 months? I'm guessing so. Still, though, it's a good deal.
> 
> Around here, there's Performance Starter (25 Mbps) for $50, Performance (60 Mbps) for $70, Blast (150 Mbps) for $80, Extreme (250 Mbps) for $90, and Gigabit for $140. Those are standard non-promo prices and do not include the additional $11 gateway rental fee if you don't have your own equipment. Some of those tiers are offered as standalone products with reduced initial pricing if you sign a 1 or 2-year contract.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's for a year. I was just searching around and found this Xfinity Internet Deals: Only the Best from Comcast

These prices seem pretty reasonable compared to what the "support" folks were telling me. When I asked about these plans no one knew what I was talking about. I had to give them the link. LOL That 250-300Mbps seems like a deal. $69.99 - $79.99


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Oh yeah, I signed up for DirecTV Now's 65+ @ $40 because if you have AT&T phones you get it for $25/mo. I do have my phones through them so I lucked out there. Now if they just fix that DVR service....


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> As pointed out up thread Silicone Dust is planning on releasing a complete DVR with an app that runs on "streamers". (ala Tablo) So no computer or Plex Server will be required.
> 
> As of right now this service works with their existing tuners which do require a computer.


The complete DVR with an app that runs on "streamers" may or may not run on Rokus specifically. They'll have to support the available codecs (as Tablo does), but that remains to be seen.

And that's what I was saying--with what you can actually buy *today*, Rokus are not supported by HDHomeRun directly--there has to be something (NAS, Computer, etc.) in-between doing the transcoding.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

SiliconDust dropped the Discovery and Hallmark channels according to Cord Cutters News.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

heyted said:


> SiliconDust dropped the Discovery and Hallmark channels according to Cord Cutters News.


HDHomeRun's Premium TV Service Drops Discovery & Hallmark Channels - Cord Cutters News

8 channels down now? - Page 11 - Silicondust


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

ACE filed a lawsuit against Omniverse according to Cord Cutters News. This is unfortunate for SiliconDust's Premium channels considering that it is a great service that allows local content recording.

ACE Files a Lawsuit Against "Omniverse One World Television" The Service Powering HDHomeRun Premium TV, Skystream TV, & More - Cord Cutters News


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

heyted said:


> ACE filed a lawsuit against Omniverse according to Cord Cutters News. This is unfortunate for SiliconDust's Premium channels considering that it is a great service that allows local content recording.
> 
> ACE Files a Lawsuit Against "Omniverse One World Television" The Service Powering HDHomeRun Premium TV, Skystream TV, & More - Cord Cutters News


Yep. I just read about this development here:
Big Programmers & Studios Bring Hammer Down on Omniverse | Light Reading

Wonder how long until the HDHomeRun Premium TV service shuts down? Unless there's some other turnkey service they could switch to (and I don't know of any), this might be the end of their run as a streaming cable TV provider.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Wonder how long until the HDHomeRun Premium TV service shuts down? Unless there's some other turnkey service they could switch to (and I don't know of any), this might be the end of their run as a streaming cable TV provider.


And I wonder whether it will have financial repercussions simply beyond the one product line.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

If there's an injunction granted, they will shut down very quickly I'd think, otherwise it would depend on which way the trial goes. I've been watching their product for the last few months waiting on 720p 60fps support before moving to it and dumping Comcast. That may no longer be a viable option.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Well that sucks. I hope they don't get shut down because I like the idea of a locally recordable IPTV stream should TiVo ever take a dump.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

The entertainment industry is shaping and forcing us how to enjoy content, like they did with music. They want you to pay for it over and over again with monthly fees and/or endless annoying commercials.

But who cares, music today is garbage, and so are newer TV shows and movies. I will resist. I already own Vinyl/CD/DVD/BD of all the stuff I like. Its the new generation of suckers they are going to milk with this scheme and this ignorant mindless new generation will never know any better, unless they have parents like me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Even if they could price content in such a way that it was profitable without commercials I don't think they would. The corporations that pay for ads still want access to your eyeballs and they will offer more money to get that access than consumers would ever pay for an ad-free option. Right now all of our ad-free watching is being subsidized by the suckers who still watch commercials, but once that ends we're going to be screwed.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Even if they could price content in such a way that it was profitable without commercials I don't think they would. The corporations that pay for ads still want access to your eyeballs and they will offer more money to get that access than consumers would ever pay for an ad-free option. Right now all of our ad-free watching is being subsidized by the suckers who still watch commercials, but once that ends we're going to be screwed.


Agreed!!!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Ha! So it looks like Omniverse, the company that serves up the OTT cable channel streams that are redistributed by small providers including HDHomeRun Premium TV, may actually just be ripping that stuff off of DirecTV satellite! Super shady.

Is Omniverse Sourcing Video Feeds From DirecTV? | Light Reading


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Even if they could price content in such a way that it was profitable without commercials I don't think they would. The corporations that pay for ads still want access to your eyeballs and they will offer more money to get that access than consumers would ever pay for an ad-free option. Right now all of our ad-free watching is being subsidized by the suckers who still watch commercials, but once that ends we're going to be screwed.


There's always been room for both. Movies at the theater aren't relying on ad revenue--the pre-roll ads & concession sales are for the theater. The studios get paid from the ticket sales. Product placements, DVDs, and years-later movie nights w/ commercials on broadcast TV happen, but the money from that is all gravy. The studio has either profited or lost money within the first couple weeks of theatrical release.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

OrangeCrush said:


> There's always been room for both. Movies at the theater aren't relying on ad revenue--the pre-roll ads & concession sales are for the theater. The studios get paid from the ticket sales. Product placements, DVDs, and years-later movie nights w/ commercials on broadcast TV happen, but the money from that is all gravy. The studio has either profited or lost money within the first couple weeks of theatrical release.


Yes but I'm not sure $2-$3/episode is going to be enough to sustain most shows. Maybe super popular shows, but even then... how does a show get popular if no one is willing to buy it? You almost have to give away most/all of the first season to get people hooked, then start charging. Ad buyers pay on speculation, most people will not.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Ha! So it looks like Omniverse, the company that serves up the OTT cable channel streams that are redistributed by small providers including HDHomeRun Premium TV, may actually just be ripping that stuff off of DirecTV satellite! Super shady.
> 
> Is Omniverse Sourcing Video Feeds From DirecTV? | Light Reading


Sounds like my neighbor mooching off everyone's internet wifi....


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Yes but I'm not sure $2-$3/episode is going to be enough to sustain most shows. Maybe super popular shows, but even then... how does a show get popular if no one is willing to buy it? You almost have to give away most/all of the first season to get people hooked, then start charging. Ad buyers pay on speculation, most people will not.


That's where it starts to get into the Netflix/HBO model. Each subscriber gets them $15 or so a month and they can calculate how much view time is going to each show to work out whether it's worth its production budget.

I'm not suggesting ad-supported shows will go away, like you said, the advertisers want eyeballs. Somebody's gotta make shows that sell the soap. I don't think commercial-skipping DVRs are really a threat to that model any more than VCRs were.

However, what I do want to see die in a fire are subscription video services that also show ads. I think the cable monopolies are the only reason that got a foothold. As those break down, I don't see ads + subscription streaming lasting. I think consumers only put up with it from things like Hulu because they've been trained to accept it by cable. It'll die out as the monopolies do.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

OrangeCrush said:


> That's where it starts to get into the Netflix/HBO model. Each subscriber gets them $15 or so a month and they can calculate how much view time is going to each show to work out whether it's worth its production budget.
> 
> I'm not suggesting ad-supported shows will go away, like you said, the advertisers want eyeballs. Somebody's gotta make shows that sell the soap. I don't think commercial-skipping DVRs are really a threat to that model any more than VCRs were.
> 
> However, what I do want to see die in a fire are subscription video services that also show ads. I think the cable monopolies are the only reason that got a foothold. As those break down, I don't see ads + subscription streaming lasting. I think consumers only put up with it from things like Hulu because they've been trained to accept it by cable. It'll die out as the monopolies do.


I think you are wrong here (not that I don't want to see them go) but people vote with wallets. People will be willing to put up with 3-4 minutes of commercials for example per episode if it means a $5.99 price versus $11.99 a month. Especially as content fractures.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

smark said:


> I think you are wrong here (not that I don't want to see them go) but people vote with wallets. People will be willing to put up with 3-4 minutes of commercials for example per episode if it means a $5.99 price versus $11.99 a month. Especially as content fractures.


I may be conflating they way I want things to be vs the way things are a bit, people clearly put up with that sort of thing today, but I'm hopeful that consumer tastes will shift against it. Hulu used to have a $0 ad-supported service. With the fracturing of content there will also be more competition, but it remains to be seen how it'll all shake out.


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