# TiVo and clear qam



## bhelman (Aug 3, 2014)

There are several posts are using TiVo with clear qam channels, but I'm not finding definitive answers and nothing overly recent. My scenario is very basic and straight-forward. It's a university environment using a hybrid satellite/OTA system that ends up presenting the channels as clear qam over in-house coax (no tuner/box needed). I understand that channel guides may be tricky (although our system does have a channel guide), but does TiVo have a dvr that is capable of tuning in/recording our mix of SD/HD (roughly 50 of each) channels? Also, the system uses sub-channels (e.g 2.1, 3.1, 3.2, 4.1, etc). Can Tivo recognize all of the channels?


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

bhelman said:


> There are several posts are using TiVo with clear qam channels, but I'm not finding definitive answers and nothing overly recent. My scenario is very basic and straight-forward. It's a university environment using a hybrid satellite/OTA system that ends up presenting the channels as clear qam over in-house coax (no tuner/box needed). I understand that channel guides may be tricky (although our system does have a channel guide), but does TiVo have a dvr that is capable of tuning in/recording our mix of SD/HD (roughly 50 of each) channels? Also, the system uses sub-channels (e.g 2.1, 3.1, 3.2, 4.1, etc). Can Tivo recognize all of the channels?


A Tivo can record clear QAM, no problem on that. You won't have any guide data on a system like that though. So, you would have to do manual recordings.

I had Wide Open West for a provider and they numbered/mapped their clear QAM channels to their virtual channel numbers. So my Tivo could record using the guide service. But from what I've read, WOW is an anomaly when it comes to clear QAM.


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## bhelman (Aug 3, 2014)

From what I've read, there is also confusion over features across TiVo DVR's. As far as you know, will all of the TiVO DVRs (that aren't cable company specific) support this? If I run up to Walmart and buy a Roamio, will that work? I haven't used TiVO in years (since DTV ended their relationship with them), so I don't know much about their line anymore). It also looks like the service will work for a week w/o registering the device. Is that your understanding too (so I can buy a Roamio et al and test it)?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

You'll get better advice if you post the zip code, university and any documentation they gave you about technical requirements.

The issue of support breaks down into a few parts.

Can the Tivo decode and display the video?
Does the Tivo know what's playing / where?

For Digital systems (ignoring Analog):
Some Tivo models can decode OTA/ATSC(8VSB) and/or QAM.
Some Tivo models can decode only QAM.

A Tivo that matches your system type, should be able to tune into everything there is. If Tivo has no notion of your cable plan, the Tivo can still do a channel scan and you end up with channel numbers like you get when a (digital ready) TV is connected to this cable system.

This lets you watch live TV, have a live buffer, but does not tell you what you're watching.

To figure out what's playing and when/how to record things, a tivo box needs a schedule guide, and a channel mapping system, which depends on data providers.

This is where you type in your zip:
www.zap2it.com
And see if you're listed and if the numbers match or not.

If you're listed and all the channels are there, then the schedule data is available. (and not, if it's not)

For the channel mapping part, Tivo for most commercial cable systems has "modernized" and then depends on a CableCard to map the channels.

In theory, Tivo could still create a static, ClearQAM map, just in downloaded data / software, for any systems which don't move their channels around. Some people on the board (on medium-smallish cable systems) had reported that this has worked for them. Some other people (on larger cable systems) beiieve CableCards are the only way to do it now.


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## bhelman (Aug 3, 2014)

I'm actually the one who is managing the install of the video system for the university. I'm trying to find DVR functionality for anyone who may wish to go that route. We have a few faculty-in-residence who have already asked how to get dvr functionality back (they had it when we were using a traditional cable provider). The managed service is provided by Campus Televideo. Again, they bring in DirecTV, Dish (foreign language programming), OTA and a couple other services. These collapse to a head-end in our Data Center and then gets retransmitted as clear qam channels over house fiber/copper to the other buildings/TV's. The guide is provided by Campus Televideo. I believe there's is a feed that can be tapped in to (it will also be displayed via a computer-injected channel). I'm not at that point. The guide will be relatively static. Changes will be based on requests from the Resident Student Association. 

So, getting back to TiVo, I'm looking for a DVR solution that will let people record programming, even if it's more like a VCR (ie you need to know the channel and time as opposed to selecting a program).

Thanks.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bhelman said:


> From what I've read, there is also confusion over features across TiVo DVR's. As far as you know, will all of the TiVO DVRs (that aren't cable company specific) support this? If I run up to Walmart and buy a Roamio, will that work? I haven't used TiVO in years (since DTV ended their relationship with them), so I don't know much about their line anymore). It also looks like the service will work for a week w/o registering the device. Is that your understanding too (so I can buy a Roamio et al and test it)?


Don't know whether or not TiVo still has the "works for a week w/o service" option.

A Roamio should work fine (although as noted above you probably won't be able to get guide data so all recording would have to be manual), but you have to understand that the issue is _*not*_ SD vs. HD, it's analog vs. digital. A Roamio is digital only. It is perfectly capable of receiving and recording SD as long as it is digital. I'm pretty sure that channels of the form n.n _*have*_ to be digital.

Yes, HD requires digital but digital does not mean that it is HD, Nor does 16x9. 16x9 doesn't even require digital.

I have a Roamio (w/CableCARD) connected to an all digital Comcast system and I watch and record SD (480i) content all the time, mostly old TV shows and even older movies.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bhelman said:


> I'm actually the one who is managing the install of the video system for the university. I'm trying to find DVR functionality for anyone who may wish to go that route. We have a few faculty-in-residence who have already asked how to get dvr functionality back (they had it when we were using a traditional cable provider). The managed service is provided by Campus Televideo. Again, they bring in DirecTV, Dish (foreign language programming), OTA and a couple other services. These collapse to a head-end in our Data Center and then gets retransmitted as clear qam channels over house fiber/copper to the other buildings/TV's. The guide is provided by Campus Televideo. I believe there's is a feed that can be tapped in to (it will also be displayed via a computer-injected channel). I'm not at that point. The guide will be relatively static. Changes will be based on requests from the Resident Student Association.
> 
> So, getting back to TiVo, I'm looking for a DVR solution that will let people record programming, even if it's more like a VCR (ie you need to know the channel and time as opposed to selecting a program).
> 
> Thanks.


You might want to talk to TiVo directly, explain your situation, and see if they can create guide data. I'm not sure it is doable, but it doesn't hurt to ask. You might also want to contact Tribune Media Services.

When dealing with clear QAM, it's not lineup changes that are usually at issue, it's frequency changes where the cable company moves an existing channel to a different frequency, which requires that the channel scan be redone even though the lineup didn't change.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

telemark said:


> Some people on the board (on medium-smallish cable systems) had reported that this has worked for them.


Can you provide a link to a post where _*anyone, anywhere*_ has reported this.


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## bhelman (Aug 3, 2014)

Frequencies won't be an issue since I control the channel remapping and retransmission on campus. TiVo doesn't make it easy to find the appropriate group to speak with, but yes I intend to call them tomorrow. I was trying to collect information before I called so I asked the right questions.

Thanks for the input.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Since you're the one managing the university's video service, I'd think there would be a way for you to notify Tribune/TiVo of your service, what channels/networks are available and on what channel numbers, and then when someone searches in your zip code, your university video system would be a provider option they could choose. I don't know what steps you'll have to take to make that happen, but I'm sure it's not difficult. 

But until then, you'll only be able to do manual recordings by time/channel.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

You might also want to investigate what it would require to support CableCARDs purchased by the user, since it may not be possible for TiVo to provide guide data for clear QAM absent a TiVo s/w modification.


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## bhelman (Aug 3, 2014)

Ok, that's something I've been trying to follow. If the signals are coming through in the clear without any encryption, what is the purpose of the cablecard? I though cable cards were coded to the cable company. In this case, there really isn't one. Or are there cablecards that are just generic, for this purpose?


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## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

lpwcomp said:


> Can you provide a link to a post where _*anyone, anywhere*_ has reported this.


Are you not counting this?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10194683#post10194683

Not much point in arguing this, since OP will have a definitive answer from Tivo, unless the answer is No and there are older systems that are grand-fathered.



bhelman said:


> Frequencies won't be an issue since I control the channel remapping and retransmission on campus.


You might want to try to pretty-up the channel lineup then, it'll be more friendly for the users. Are the SD and HD channels duplicates?

What about locally sourced content... like a student run TV or FM station, Broadcast lectures, Webcams? Someone would have to feed that kind of data to Tribune, if you have those.



> TiVo doesn't make it easy to find the appropriate group to speak with, but yes I intend to call them tomorrow.


It's an option on this consumer facing page:
http://www.tivo.com/lineup.html
Guess they're called a TiVo Lineup Specialist



DevdogAZ said:


> I don't know what steps you'll have to take to make that happen, but I'm sure it's not difficult.


I recall a Tivo rep making a lineup for a tiny university apartment, probably the only Tivo user there. Long time ago though.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

telemark said:


> Are you not counting this?
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10194683#post10194683


Seriously? Your sole cite is a post _*in this thread*_ and it is at odds with every other post on the subject made since the first digital capable TiVo? Not to mention the fact that it is far more likely that he was seeing the simulcast _*analog*_ channels. WOW supports CableCARDs so why would they even need to do this, even if it were possible, about which I have my doubts.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

bhelman said:


> Ok, that's something I've been trying to follow. If the signals are coming through in the clear without any encryption, what is the purpose of the cablecard? I though cable cards were coded to the cable company. In this case, there really isn't one. Or are there cablecards that are just generic, for this purpose?


In addition to decrypting, CableCARDs are also used to map the transmitted channels/frequencies to the cable channels. There have been some reports of people using cards they purchases of of ebay to get a channel map for clear QAM channels and thus be able to get guide data.

While CableCARDs are usually set up to be used by a specific head end, I believe it is the cable company end that enforces this and since you control the system, it may be possible for you to support these cards. You'd still need to contact TMS and TiVo, but it makes it more likely that TiVo can provide guide data.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

lpwcomp said:


> Seriously? Your sole cite is a post _*in this thread*_ and it is at odds with every other post on the subject made since the first digital capable TiVo? Not to mention the fact that it is far more likely that he was seeing the simulcast _*analog*_ channels. WOW supports CableCARDs so why would they even need to do this, even if it were possible, about which I have my doubts.


I connected my Tivo HD to WOW's clear QAM after reading a thread posted by another person in the Roamio forum who had 3 Tivo HD's and a Premiere Elite connected in this manner. He didn't want to upgrade to cable cards and he was happy with SD pq. So it does work with WOW, just because the guide service doesn't work with the majority of cable systems (because of channel mapping or lack of) doesn't make it less true. A Tivo WILL RECORD CLEAR QAM.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

moedaman said:


> I connected my Tivo HD to WOW's clear QAM after reading a thread posted by another person in the Roamio forum who had 3 Tivo HD's and a Premiere Elite connected in this manner. He didn't want to upgrade to cable cards and he was happy with SD pq. So it does work with WOW, just because it doesn't work with the majority of cable systems (because of channel mapping or lack of) doesn't make it less true.


TiVo HDs have analog tuners. I know that doesn't explain the Elite since the Tivo Elite|4XL|4 are digital cable only, but my skepticism is based on more than just the lack of any other reports like yours, and numerous reports to the contrary, it's also the fact that TiVo has repeatedly stated that they have not and will not provide guide data for clear QAM channels.

Installing a CableCARD isn't an "upgrade". It doesn't enable HD and it's absence doesn't disable the capability. It's the digital tuners in the Series 3 and later model TiVos that enables reception of HD, not the CableCARD.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

bhelman said:


> I'm actually the one who is managing the install of the video system for the university. I'm trying to find DVR functionality for anyone who may wish to go that route. We have a few faculty-in-residence who have already asked how to get dvr functionality back (they had it when we were using a traditional cable provider). The managed service is provided by Campus Televideo. Again, they bring in DirecTV, Dish (foreign language programming), OTA and a couple other services. These collapse to a head-end in our Data Center and then gets retransmitted as clear qam channels over house fiber/copper to the other buildings/TV's. The guide is provided by Campus Televideo. I believe there's is a feed that can be tapped in to (it will also be displayed via a computer-injected channel). I'm not at that point. The guide will be relatively static. Changes will be based on requests from the Resident Student Association.
> 
> So, getting back to TiVo, I'm looking for a DVR solution that will let people record programming, even if it's more like a VCR (ie you need to know the channel and time as opposed to selecting a program).
> 
> Thanks.


My son is going to George Mason University who also uses Campus Televideo and we were able to use an HD TiVo in his dorm room. If I recall correctly George Mason was an option during guided setup after entering the zip code for Fairfax, VA. I would assume that that Campus Televideo provides the lineup information to Tribune but you should be able to confirm that with them.

Scott


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

You could just buy a Roamio and try it. YOu have 30 days.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lpwcomp said:


> Can you provide a link to a post where _*anyone, anywhere*_ has reported this.


There was one guy who posted here years ago (and then within the past few years IIRC responded to my message much like this one), who did have the cable "just work" on his system without a cable card.. But IIRC even that stopped working.

Basically, you NEED a cable card to use a Tivo as "intended" for cable recording.

If there are any of the clear QAM recorders (I think there are some, check the tivo competition threads), they would be able to do what you need.


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## mike-d (Dec 12, 2013)

moedaman said:


> I connected my Tivo HD to WOW's clear QAM after reading a thread posted by another person in the Roamio forum who had 3 Tivo HD's and a Premiere Elite connected in this manner. He didn't want to upgrade to cable cards and he was happy with SD pq. So it does work with WOW, just because the guide service doesn't work with the majority of cable systems (because of channel mapping or lack of) doesn't make it less true. A Tivo WILL RECORD CLEAR QAM.


I was able to record using comcast without a cable card using Clear QAM on my tivo premiere, until recently. Seems comcast has pulled all my clear qam channels. I hate comcast!


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mike-d said:


> I was able to record using comcast without a cable card using Clear QAM on my tivo premiere, until recently. Seems comcast has pulled all my clear qam channels. I hate comcast!


Sounds like it's time to get a CableCard.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

mike-d said:


> I was able to record using comcast without a cable card using Clear QAM on my tivo premiere, until recently. Seems comcast has pulled all my clear qam channels. I hate comcast!


You're lucky it lasted this long. Locally, Comcast started encrypting everything almost 2 years ago. It's still far better than TWC. At least Comcast only _*copy protects*_ premium channels.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> You're lucky it lasted this long. Locally, Comcast started encrypting everything almost 2 years ago. It's still far better than TWC. At least Comcast only _*copy protects*_ premium channels.


True, but TWC still has clear-QAM channels.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> True, but TWC still has clear-QAM channels.


Probably for not much longer.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

lpwcomp said:


> Probably for not much longer.


TWC moves at a glacial pace. Most markets still have analog cable, and they won't do away with clear-QAM until they get rid of analog.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TWC moves at a glacial pace. Most markets still have analog cable, and they won't do away with clear-QAM until they get rid of analog.


All markets are, by definition, local. So I can't argue that fact. I have 5 analog test patterns and 40 clear QAM channels including the local clear QAM broadcast (and QVC). I am noticing this because my clear QAM are going away slowly at this time. Last week I saw a similar debate in another forum. I have a functioning Premiere and Roamio. To test the non-cable card TiVo, I setup my spare Premiere by starting out with a Guided Setup without a cable card. I then finished with a channel scan. It found all 450 channels, so the scrambled channels were included. I then observed several items. First was a cable card found on eBay would not map my channels. I also found that the channel up/down would only move to whole number channel numbers. I could, however, directly tune the QAM channels by entering the numbers. If I entered 17-2 I received my ABC HD channel. I found that I could not perform a manual recording since that function would only accept whole numbers. I also could not use the red record button to record what I was viewing, since it also showed the whole number and that field could not be changed. My conclusion was that you can tune clear QAM channels without a cable card but you can not record them. I will soon no longer have clear QAM and will miss it. The Premiere did not download 20.4.6 and was running on 20.4.5c if it matters.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

moedaman said:


> A Tivo WILL RECORD CLEAR QAM.


CLEAR QAM is almost dead in this country. I think the remaining cable companies just haven't gotten around to eliminating it.


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## cannonz (Oct 23, 2011)

Pacomartin said:


> CLEAR QAM is almost dead in this country. I think the remaining cable companies just haven't gotten around to eliminating it.


A lot of hotel, trailer parks etc. use QAM for HD distribution though, and will only be more in the future.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

cannonz said:


> A lot of hotel, trailer parks etc. use QAM for HD distribution though, and will only be more in the future.


College campus dorms as well.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lpwcomp said:


> At least Comcast only _*copy protects*_ premium channels.


Now they can encrypt it, but isn't it still a FCC requirement that they can't copy protect it?

i.e. it's not Comcast's benevolence.


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## Pacomartin (Jun 11, 2013)

cannonz said:


> A lot of hotel, trailer parks etc. use QAM for HD distribution though, and will only be more in the future.





tarheelblue32 said:


> College campus dorms as well.


I did not know that. But these kind of places are not really places where you would have a TiVo box. College students don't use DVR's, do they?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

mattack said:


> Now they can encrypt it, but isn't it still a FCC requirement that they can't copy protect it?
> 
> i.e. it's not Comcast's benevolence.


The FCC only says they can't copy protect the local broadcast channels. So there are lots of channels Comcast could copy protect if they wanted to, but they choose not to.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

bhelman said:


> Frequencies won't be an issue since I control the channel remapping and retransmission on campus. TiVo doesn't make it easy to find the appropriate group to speak with, but yes I intend to call them tomorrow. I was trying to collect information before I called so I asked the right questions.
> 
> Thanks for the input.


Since you control the frequencies, you could set them to an existing Tivo lineup for another cable provider and add that specific lineup to your setup instructions for Tivo.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> True, but TWC still has clear-QAM channels.





tarheelblue32 said:


> TWC moves at a glacial pace. Most markets still have analog cable, and they won't do away with clear-QAM until they get rid of analog.


Time-Warner removed analog channels in my area in September of 2014.
They stopped transmitting any Clear QAM in December of 2014.

In some areas of Los Angeles, they did the above months earlier.

So, I have no doubt it's coming company wide.

(Oh, they also protect all channels except for the OTA rebroadcasts.)


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> Since you control the frequencies, you could set them to an existing Tivo lineup for another cable provider and add that specific lineup to your setup instructions for Tivo.


The lineup doesn't include the frequencies, just the channels. You still need the channel map in the CableCARD.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JYoung said:


> Time-Warner removed analog channels in my area in September of 2014.
> They stopped transmitting any Clear QAM in December of 2014.
> 
> In some areas of Los Angeles, they did the above months earlier.
> ...


Yes, when TWC does their "MAXX" upgrades, they go all digital. I think I remember reading that they have estimated that up to 75% of TWC markets COULD get MAXX upgrades by the end of 2016. But at the rate TWC moves, I'd be surprised if half of their markets are all digital by then. Some TWC markets will continue to have analog and clear-QAM for years to come.


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