# Counterpart (Starz) Season Two *spoilers*



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

**Discussion and spoilers for any episode that has aired on Starz**

Good start to S2. It had been so long since S1, I wasn't sure I would remember anything, or even still be interested. Only took about five minutes and I'm drawn in. Again.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Looks like we're going to get inside Management this season.

Daddy-o.

I assume eventually we'll be going back to Prime...


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

So the recap made it clear that what Project Indigo has done so far is just the beginning, it is far more than forcing a closure of the crossing and an end to diplomatic relations between the two worlds.

Maybe the reason Emily put the library book in a draw is that the book and library were being used as a dead letter drop and/or the book was used to decrypt a cipher. If I were Emily and fully recovered my memory at first I would not tell anybody,

Interesting that the person with the Management Coms Box is not just a tech, he is a Management decision maker. 

If I were Naya Temple with the information she has already got I would be trying to find out who in Management first suggested that Peter Quayle be promoted. When the person with the Coms Box said "Management trusts you will come to them as soon as you have something". Naya said "Of course I will". I think Naya was lying she is smarter than that, the guy with the Coms Box is the last person she should/would go to.

With information that Naya Temple hasn't got I would be asking why Emily Alpha had a miscarriage and Emily Prime didn't. Possible solutions include - different biological fathers; Emily Prime was able to arrange a secret adoption.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> So the recap made it clear that what Project Indigo has done so far is just the beginning, it is far more than forcing a closure of the crossing and an end to diplomatic relations between the two worlds.


??? I thought Clare made that perfectly clear last season (when Peter said "So it was all for this? Five years of marriage?" and she replied "Peter, it hasn't even begun."


pgogborn said:


> Interesting that the person with the Management Coms Box is not just a tech, he is a Management decision maker.


You mean Daddy-o? How else would Management communicate?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What does Daddy-o mean? are you saying the one management guy we saw was Clare's father?

How did we know that the guy with the camera was part of management? I missed noticing that...

Is Lambert the ambassador? 

sorry, I should've watched the previous season to refresh my memory about things...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

1) I thought so, although they avoided a clear look at his face.

2) I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm also not sure what pgogborn meant, which might be where the confusion comes in. The guy with the camera was just a tech, through which Management was talking to the peons. 

3) No, Lambert is a fugitive. But he USED to be the ambassador. 

4) Yes, you should have re-watched Season 1.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

And Mira is alive?
I'll miss Aldrich this season.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

That was not Clare’s father using the machine at the end. 

I think what it showed was that management is a group who are not all in the same location. There were four “Users” shown onscreen; Avalon, Weza, Keilberg, and Myxine. The guy we saw was Avalon.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Why does the tech guy listen to and communicate from Management?
Why not just use a speaker and give everyone headphones?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> Why does the tech guy listen to and communicate from Management?
> Why not just use a speaker and give everyone headphones?


Maybe so nobody will have a clue who they're speaking to..?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Then the guy doing the communicating isn't a lowly tech guy.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> 2) I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm also not sure what pgogborn meant, which might be where the confusion comes in. The guy with the camera was just a tech, through which Management was talking to the peons.


A tech does not get to be part of the Management decision making process, let alone deciding when the tele-conference has ended and having the last word. Maybe not just Management, maybe the Management top guy.

Unseen Management people: We have to send them a message... Does everybody concur... Yes.. I do...

The so-called peon: I agree. Signing off.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> A tech does not get to be part of the Management decision making process, let alone deciding when the tele-conference has ended and having the last word. Maybe not just Management, maybe the Management top guy.
> 
> Unseen Management people: We have to send them a message... Does everybody concur... Yes.. I do...
> 
> The so-called peon: I agree. Signing off.


But that wasn't a peon.

I referred to the people to whom Management was communicating through the tech guy as peons (Quayle, the new investigator, etc.). I didn't see the tech guy participating in the decision making process, nor did I see him necessarily deciding the tele-conference had ended. Unless I missed something, I think you're reading WAY to much into the tech guy, who to me seems to be just a tech guy.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> And Mira is alive?
> I'll miss Aldrich this season.


Um...so who's Mira?

We still have the other Aldrich, right? we've never met him but Alpha talked about him...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mira is the woman who ran the school in Prime. And yes, she's still alive...she chose not to participate in the mass suicide-by-cop she ordered for the rest of her people.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> Um...so who's Mira?
> 
> We still have the other Aldrich, right? we've never met him but Alpha talked about him...


I thought he was killed. I recall Aldrich talking to Howard about remote chess matches with his other and then having to have him killed. Not sure though, all I remember is him talking about chess.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ... I think you're reading WAY to much into the tech guy, who to me seems to be just a tech guy.


Why is he needed at all then? 
I think his position is higher than the people he is in the room with.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Tony_T said:


> Why is he needed at all then?
> I think his position is higher than the people he is in the room with.


One more layer to prevent anyone from finding out more about Management.

No one else ever hears Managements voices. No one else knows if Management is one person or 100.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

pgogborn said:


> A tech does not get to be part of the Management decision making process, let alone deciding when the tele-conference has ended and having the last word. Maybe not just Management, maybe the Management top guy.
> 
> Unseen Management people: We have to send them a message... Does everybody concur... Yes.. I do...
> 
> The so-called peon: I agree. Signing off.


That was not a peon signing off. He's one of the people that make up Management.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

cherry ghost said:


> One more layer to prevent anyone from finding out more about Management.
> 
> No one else ever hears Managements voices. No one else knows if Management is one person or 100.


And that layer is between Management and, i.e. Diplomacy, so that person is at a higher level than Diplomacy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> And that layer is between Management and, i.e. Diplomacy, so that person is at a higher level than Diplomacy.


That's kinda like saying the President's spokesman is at a higher level than the Vice President...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

No, it's not.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mira is the woman who ran the school in Prime. And yes, she's still alive...she chose not to participate in the mass suicide-by-cop she ordered for the rest of her people.


To the best of my recollection last seen with a large case - but I can't remember if it is the same case that was the last one to cross the border and was given to Clare by Lambert with new orders that she was not entirely happy with.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> That was not a peon signing off. He's one of the people that make up Management.


That is why I posted _so-called_ peon.

He is one of the people who make up Management, code name Avalon. The bigger question is is he working for or against Management.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

pgogborn said:


> Interesting that the person with the Management Coms Box is not just a tech, he is a Management decision maker.
> 
> If I were Naya Temple with the information she has already got I would be trying to find out who in Management first suggested that Peter Quayle be promoted. When the person with the Coms Box said "Management trusts you will come to them as soon as you have something". Naya said "Of course I will". I think Naya was lying she is smarter than that, the guy with the Coms Box is the last person she should/would go to.





pgogborn said:


> That is why I posted _so-called_ peon.
> 
> He is one of the people who make up Management, code name Avalon. The bigger question is is he working for or against Management.


I think the confusion is there were two people with coms boxes. The one conversing with Naya is a tech, the other is Management. 
Yes, code name Avalon, I mentioned it earlier. 
What indication did they give us that he may be working against Management?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

The guy at the end, one of "Management" (as far as we know), is not the dad. Similar but not him. Don't know if they intentionally picked someone to confuse us, or just random. But the management guy had a full beard, the dad has a goatee.

We don't have any reason to think the communicator is anything but a peon. We can speculate, but he _appears _to just be a go-between. I assume to help hide the actual management identities to those who interact with them.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Why would Managemenrt trust their identity with a peon?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> Why would Managemenrt trust their identity with a peon?


He's too much of a peon to recognize their voices?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

If all they needed to do was hide their voices, there are other ways.
The need for him to listen and repeat eludes me.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I did roll my eyes at the soap opera coma/amnesia arc...


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

astrohip said:


> The guy at the end, one of "Management" (as far as we know), is not the dad. Similar but not him. Don't know if they intentionally picked someone to confuse us, or just random. But the management guy had a full beard, the dad has a goatee.





















A screen grab of the Management face code named Avalon.
His distinctive watch face should help identify him.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> What indication did they give us that he may be working against Management?


The indication is that Justin Marks created the show inspired by British Cold War spy authors such as Len Deighton and John Le Carré who wrote books such as Funeral in Berlin and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy 

Deighton's and Carré's world is one of liars, moles, peddlers of disinformation, spies and traitors.

Maybe disinformation but when Justin Marks code named a Management person Avalon (a legendary island in Arthurian legend) he would have remembered the key Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy character code named Merlin (a mole the British Secret Intelligence thought was working for them in the KGB).


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Some general spoilers on S2, from the exec producer. None of these are specific plot spoilers. More along the lines of the general direction of S2, and what they intend to cover. But they are definitely spoilers for people who prefer not to know *anything* about a show's direction.

Much more at the link (again, general discussion of S2, not any specific spoilers):
Did Counterpart Reveal Management's Face? Plus, Where Is Our Howard?



Spoiler: General S2 Spoilers



At the close of _Counterpart_'s Season 2 premiere, FBI turned OI agent Naya Temple (played by Betty Gabriel) reported into the mysterious Management, via that old timey radio apparatus. This time, though, once she was done affirming her commitment to drawing out the agency mole, viewers got a glimpse at what's going on at the other end of the signal.

In a fittingly cryptic scene, we saw an older man, code-named Avalon, complete a text exchange with other individuals, before shutting down his transmitter and storing it into a locked compartment.

Did we finally lay eyes on Management?



"I guess I can come down pretty clearly on that one," answers series creator Justin Marks. "That's the beginning of our exposure to Management. Who they are and why they act that way is something that this season is really about."

As Season 2 of the acclaimed Starz drama continues, "we really do unfold Management in a real way - as well as some of the secret origins of the Office of Interchange in general," Marks adds.

So from that tag scene, are we to glean that Management isn't any one person? "It's a little more complex than that," Marks hedges. "In every episode, you're going to get a little more of it."

"Management as an idea is really a central tenet to Season 2, which is something I love," adds executive producer Jordan Horowitz. "This idea of Management and building up the hierarchical structure of the two worlds, and what's controlling them&#8230;. That's a really big and a really great part of Season 2."


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I finally remembered about the episodes dropping around midnight. So I watched the second episode before I went to bed early this morning. I thought it was another enjoyable episode.

I'm looking forward to the rest of season 2.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I don't understand why Mira wants Howard sent to Echo (black site).
It was eluded that she wants him there to see someone there, but this is the Howard that was only in interface and doesn't know anything (or….)


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

*Justin Marks taking question on Reddit now:
*


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Tony_T said:


> I don't understand why Mira wants Howard sent to Echo (black site).
> It was eluded that she wants him there to see someone there, but this is the Howard that was only in interface and doesn't know anything (or&#8230;.)




__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCounterpart%252Fcomments%252Fa6tj1e%252Fjustin_marks_episodes_1_and_2_ama_tonight%252Febyg7tu


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCounterpart%252Fcomments%252Fa6tj1e%252Fjustin_marks_episodes_1_and_2_ama_tonight%252Febygjrg


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCounterpart%252Fcomments%252Fa6tj1e%252Fjustin_marks_episodes_1_and_2_ama_tonight%252Febyh3b1


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FCounterpart%252Fcomments%252Fa6tj1e%252Fjustin_marks_episodes_1_and_2_ama_tonight%252Febyhlut


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> *Justin Marks taking question on Reddit now:*


Thanks for posting that link. Really interesting AMA.

Another enjoyable episode. But we already knew that, thanks to spoilers .


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Another AMA tidbit...


> Howard Alpha is in rough shape and clearly malnutrished. How much time has passed since the season 1 finale for the characters?
> 
> Justin_Marks_ It's only been a few weeks. JK worked very hard to fast for exactly the amount of time his character was imprisoned. That's the real deal you see there. He's very method.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> If I were Naya Temple with the information she has already got I would be trying to find out who in Management first suggested that Peter Quayle be promoted.


Emily Prime asked the question about herself which I am sure mole hunter Naya is asking about Peter - Why did Management promote?


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> Maybe disinformation but when Justin Marks code named a Management person Avalon (a legendary island in Arthurian legend) he would have remembered the key Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy character code named Merlin (a mole the British Secret Intelligence thought was working for them in the KGB).


Justin Marks in the previously mentioned Reddit session - "I'm glad people are paying attention to the usernames".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Checking to see that everyone agrees with my understanding: so that old man was (is?) part of management and Mira wants one of the cases they use to communicate, right?

also a question (and it's not being a perv, it was just weird): what the heck was Mira doing to that guy? She wasn't on top of him and nobody has that much pleasure from a little hand work...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Checking to see that everyone agrees with my understanding: so that old man was (is?) part of management and Mira wants one of the cases they use to communicate, right?


He definitely WAS Management; I got the impression that he had retired (fled?). And yes, she's looking for a box like the one not-Daddio used last week.


Anubys said:


> also a question (and it's not being a perv, it was just weird): what the heck was Mira doing to that guy? She wasn't on top of him and nobody has that much pleasure from a little hand work...


If it's the first action you've gotten from the woman of your dreams, which seems to be the case here...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He definitely WAS Management; I got the impression that he had retired (fled?). And yes, she's looking for a box like the one not-Daddio used last week.


Maybe IS Management.
Justin Marks said on last nights Reddit AMA:
_... Management is OBSESSED with keeping their identities a secret. 
Their methodology is peculiar, and a bit antiquated. You can see that none of the Management characters we've met are particularly young. ..._​


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> Maybe IS Management.
> Justin Marks said on last nights Reddit AMA:
> _... Management is OBSESSED with keeping their identities a secret.
> Their methodology is peculiar, and a bit antiquated. You can see that none of the Management characters we've met are particularly young. ..._​


Right, sorry, that was meant to be implied. Definitely WAS; maybe IS. But I got the impression he was hiding not only from the world, but from his (former) colleagues.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Since we now know that the 4th floor is vacant, it appears all of Management is hiding.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He definitely WAS Management; I got the impression that he had retired (fled?). And yes, she's looking for a box like the one not-Daddio used last week.


Very probably just a coms box but the other thing Management could carry the whole time is a doomsday box.

If the scientists created a duplicate world which then started to evolve separately perhaps they have a way of destroying the other world.

A 'peace keeping' mutually assured destruction [MAD] strategy would work if there was something that gave your world a few minutes early warning that is about to be destroyed (and it would explain why Management are in separate secret locations and not on the 4th floor).

But perhaps Mira wants a football because she is the ultimate Cold War insane warrior - somebody who believes they can carry out a first strike that prevents retaliation.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm thinking she just wants the box so she could use it to track management, kill them, and take over...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1076166235044433921


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm thinking she just wants the box so she could use it to track management, kill them, and take over...


So now Prime Emily (thru her co-worker investigator) has "a box". Will we finally get some more insight into Management, and why they're so secretive?

I think it's becoming clearer with each episode this season that there is far more to Management than meets the eye. Do they work together, are they the same, how much do they know... lots of questions.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I think management was once the same group (as they use the same tech), but then split after the virus.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Boy, that box was really easy to find...

third season in...this is the first episode that had me bored and seemed to drag on forever...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Also 2nd week of a gratuitous sex scene.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Also 2nd week of a gratuitous sex scene.


/Miracle Max

It was _*mostly*_ boring

/end Miracle Max


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> third season in...this is the first episode that had me bored and seemed to drag on forever...


Same here. I usually... no, always find myself going "Wow that was a quick hour" when the credits roll. This was the first time I clicked on the progress bar to see where we were.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, all of a sudden Anubys's completely insane theory that Emily Alpha and Prime have switched places has become almost certainly true...  Still not sure how it could possibly work, but the way "Prime" was acting this week, there's really no other explanation.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, all of a sudden Anubys's completely insane theory that Emily Alpha and Prime have switched places has become almost certainly true...  Still not sure how it could possibly work, but the way "Prime" was acting this week, there's really no other explanation.


hmmm...now that you agree with me, I'm starting to have some doubts


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Excellent. Claire, who gave her life to a cause discovers that she was manipulatd by Mira killing her parents. Claire will surely now prevent the plan from being completed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Excellent. Claire, who gave her life to a cause discovers that she was manipulatd by Mira killing her parents. Claire will surely now prevent the plan from being completed.


When did that happen? I missed that part...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Wait...I just realized I didn't finish the ep last night as I fell asleep...nevermind!


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

pgogborn said:


> ...
> Maybe the reason Emily put the library book in a draw is that the book and library were being used as a dead letter drop and/or the book was used to decrypt a cipher. If I were Emily and fully recovered my memory at first I would not tell anybody,


OK, not a dead letter drop or a decrypt merely a signal.

But what I did not notice the first time round was the book was the Tin Drum by Gunter Glass. In selecting that book show creator/runner Justin Marks has put up a stack of signals.

###
I took the book back. I don't know why, it was just bothering me. But you'll never guess what it was. It was a signal. Like I used when I was working. A signal to a source.
###

Howard Alpha would not have guessed and it would have been relatively safe telling him. Unknowingly telling Howard Prime was not so smart (although I have got to believe she is beginning to suspect which Howard is in her world).


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

S2E5 - Shadow Puppets

So, Yanek (James Cromwell) was there at the split ("I am the reason our two worlds exist") and Mira is his daughter (but couldn't make out from the picture in the final shot who his wife is/was).
Why is Qualye so important that they would go to such lengths to protect him? Same for his other in Echo, as the guy Mira blackmailed to help with Yanek's escape hid Peter/Echo's VHS tapes (and why did Mira (or Howard) then leave him behind?)

Not that I mind, but has there been a sex scene in every episode this year? (though in this ep, it fit better with the story)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Quayle is important because he's the director of Strategy (or deputy director?) and is married to the real Shadow...he is probably one of the highest ranking people that they pretty much have almost total control of at this point.

The other Quayle is important because they use him to find out about the "other" Quayle 

Mira left him behind because he is no more important to her than any of the other prisoners. She only went in to get Yanek.

As to the sex scene...I'm still waiting for the one where a guy finally has sex with the beautiful woman he has lusted after for over a decade and then spends a long time apologizing for being done too quickly! who are these men that can satisfy a woman in that situation (and without even any foreplay?!)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I could never be a zealot. If I were Quayle's secretary, I'd have shot him instead of me.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> The other Quayle is important because they use him to find out about the "other" Quayle


Except that Mira had the blackmailed guard hide his VHS Tapes, so there is some connection to Mira... so why did she leave him behind?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Tony_T said:


> Except that Mira had the blackmailed guard hide his VHS Tapes, so there is some connection to Mira... so why did she leave him behind?


For all we know he only did that because he knew it would set Quayle off and cause a distraction.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

cherry ghost said:


> For all we know he only did that because he knew it would set Quayle off and cause a distraction.


I was thinking of that, but there may be more to it. While Quayle is high-up in the ranks, I think that there may be something else that makes him important to Mira, and that the guard chose his 'other' to set off a distraction is too much if a co-incidence.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

They showed us very early on how agitated he got when he couldn't find his tapes. It stands to reason that the guard did this because he knew it was the surest way to start a big distraction. I see no reason to read anything more into it than that.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> Why is Qualye so important that they would go to such lengths to protect him?


Previously I posted:
If I were Naya Temple with the information she has already got I would be trying to find out who in Management first suggested that Peter Quayle be promoted.

At the time I thought a clever traitor in Management promoted him because he Qualye is incompetent.

Because he is still being protected I am now considering the possibility that a traitor in Management or the Head of Indigo is his brother/mother/father.

Top chilling moment - Spencer telling Claire "In a few days, it won't matter anyway". Is he expecting the end of our world?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

pgogborn said:


> Previously I posted:
> If I were Naya Temple with the information she has already got I would be trying to find out who in Management first suggested that Peter Quayle be promoted.
> 
> At the time I thought a clever traitor in Management promoted him because he Qualye is incompetent.
> ...


Clare's father was Roland; nepotism is the reason Peter was promoted.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> Clare's father was Roland; nepotism is the reason Peter was promoted.


The voice of a Management person promoted Peter after the attack to investigate the attack - worst decision possible unless Management person was part of the attack.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

And Emily also questioned why management promoted her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pgogborn said:


> Top chilling moment - Spencer telling Claire "In a few days, it won't matter anyway". Is he expecting the end of our world?


Plus his assistant also said she wanted to be there at the end and was disappointed she had to be killed so close to it. This new attack is going to be on a global scale!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

We know that the 'plan/attack' needs the management communication box and Yanek.
Might be some kind of Doomsday Device involved.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Is there a good Counterpart For Dummies website out there?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> We know that the 'plan/attack' needs the management communication box and Yanek.
> Might be some kind of Doomsday Device involved.


While that may be true, that is a leap. The attack has already been put into motion and seems self-sufficient. Spencer does not mention any roadblocks to carrying it out. Mira seems to be on some mission to take over management which is only happening because her school has been found out and she is a fugitive. The only way for her to not be a fugitive is to take control of management and become the boss.

Mira's plan might very well be to control her side post attack, not as the fuse that starts it.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Spenser is too low level to know the plan. Even Claire/Shadow. 
Now that Claire knows that her parents were killed by Mira, she will be the one to prevent the attack


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

cheesesteak said:


> Is there a good Counterpart For Dummies website out there?


Counterpart Official Site | STARZ
There's also a subreddit at: Counterpart


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> Is there a good Counterpart For Dummies website out there?


I've been reading some of the episode recaps from season one at the wiki below which helped a lot. It helps that the recaps are broken down scene by scene and include links to character pages. I often can't remember minor character names, but with a photo and a little blurb about them it comes back to me. I don't know that it gives any analysis, since I've just been using it for the recaps. They're long but more detailed than most and much quicker than rewatching a whole season.

CounterpartStarz Wiki


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Wow, that was amazing (today's episode)! I really wasn't expecting that much explanation that suddenly...all that really remains to be explained is how the flu got out over there. I'm still not sure I buy the idea that meeting your other (both individually and culturally) would so often be so traumatic, but that's what they're going with, so OK.

An interesting/amusing technical note...two of the Management pairs are played by sets of twins (the woman and the mustache man), which cuts down on the need for CGI and expands the opportunities for interaction.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

S2E6 - Twin Cities
("I am the reason our two worlds exist" — Yanek, s2e5)
I liked how the flashlights first dropped identically, then the second time, there was a divergence. And then how a difference so minor had such a devastating impact.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

There was a lot of BS in there as well...I'm pretty sure the first time I go home for a nooner, my wife would mention it later that night. I work at a big company, and people would notice that I'm not there a lot.

Then how he could, in EAST BERLIN, have such autonomy at the start. Let alone the funding for all the manpower and equipment later.

And this project that was of interest to the U.S. became uninteresting just as it got interesting?

I'm very glad we got this episode. It answered a lot of questions (finally!). But the eye rolls were plentiful throughout...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The big eye-roll for me was the notion that after just a handful of years, the two sides had evolved apart to the point where a flue would affect one and not the other. That was so wildly unscientific I'm hoping that it's just plain wrong not in the writer's room but on the show (and that the other side's flu ended up wiping out its own population because they were stupid enough to believe it wouldn't).


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The big eye-roll for me was the notion that after just a handful of years, the two sides had evolved apart to the point where a flue would affect one and not the other. That was so wildly unscientific I'm hoping that it's just plain wrong not in the writer's room but on the show (and that the other side's flu ended up wiping out its own population because they were stupid enough to believe it wouldn't).


My theory is that the one guy in the writer's room that took a physics class at community college got fired because he started too many arguments in the room. Last season it seemed to me that what they were headed for would make sense, but this season we seem to be lacking that direction.

Of course, in the first season they didn't explain much in detail, so I was free to imagine an understory that was consistent with known science. This season the details they are filling in are baloney.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

'Counterpart' Goes Back to the Beginning in Format-Breaking Episode

Interview with creator & showrunner Justin Marks


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

astrohip said:


> 'Counterpart' Goes Back to the Beginning in Format-Breaking Episode
> 
> Interview with creator & showrunner Justin Marks


Thanks. That was an interesting read.



> The scene that was the most fun for us was there's a moment when Management starts working together ............... But it's all a single, uninterrupted Steadicam shot&#8230;as you move through the lab and see Management working.
> 
> In order to do that, we made close use of our two sets of twins, but we also had three actors who didn't have twins. We used body doubles and had a set with multiple hidden exits all around, so when the camera turned away, they could run around behind the camera, do a quick change into a new costume and show up in the same frame eight seconds later as their counterpart. We meticulously rehearsed it and storyboarded it with action figures to get it right. We wanted to start to push the vocabulary of how we do counterparts on this show. But you can only do that when you have 19 episodes already shot.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The big eye-roll for me was the notion that after just a handful of years, the two sides had evolved apart to the point where a flue would affect one and not the other. That was so wildly unscientific I'm hoping that it's just plain wrong not in the writer's room but on the show (and that the other side's flu ended up wiping out its own population because they were stupid enough to believe it wouldn't).


Do we know that the virus would not have affected the Alpha world as well? What if it was only released in Prime and that's why it did so much damage?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Do we know that the virus would not have affected the Alpha world as well? What if it was only released in Prime and that's why it did so much damage?


That's what I meant by them being stupid enough to believe their own BS. They THINK it would only kill the "other side," but would it? It wouldn't even have to have been released...just having a researcher get sick, and not realizing he was spreading his own death-virus among his own people.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> Do we know that the virus would not have affected the Alpha world as well? What if it was only released in Prime and that's why it did so much damage?


Alpha side isn't shown taking any prophylactic measures. I presume that means that (in the show) the Alpha immunity is real since otherwise it would have crossed over.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Alpha side isn't shown taking any prophylactic measures. I presume that means that (in the show) the Alpha immunity is real since otherwise it would have crossed over.


Unless Alpha had nothing to do with it. It could be Prime's virus (supposedly effective only against Alpha) was accidentally unleashed on Prime, and it turned out science actually works and you don't evolve into separate species after just a handful of years...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Or it could be that when Alpha learned that the virus had been released in Prime, they shut the doors and didn't allow any crossing until they received word from Management that the outbreak had been contained and the virus eradicated. Which may have triggered why Prime is so suspicious that Alpha released the virus.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Or it could be that when Alpha learned that the virus had been released in Prime, they shut the doors and didn't allow any crossing until they received word from Management that the outbreak had been contained and the virus eradicated. Which may have triggered why Prime is so suspicious that Alpha released the virus.


Sure...that's perfectly compatible with my scenario!

I suspect the reason Alpha blames Prime is because the people who were working on it over there are all dead, and the survivors didn't know that it got out from their facility.

Although I suppose it's possible Prime unleashed it on themselves intentionally for some reason, although off the top of my head I can't imagine why...


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

What if neither side created the flu?

How about the split caused some sort of immune system weakness with Prime that both sides have been unable to detect? Perhaps a different issue develops later on the Alpha side which doesn't occur on the Prime side.

Maybe there are backend effects of the split 21st science is unable to detect.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> What if neither side created the flu?
> 
> How about the split caused some sort of immune system weakness with Prime that both sides have been unable to detect? Perhaps a different issue develops later on the Alpha side which doesn't occur on the Prime side.
> 
> Maybe there are backend effects of the split 21st science is unable to detect.


Well, we know that both sides were developing weaponized viruses for use against the other side. It would be a pretty extreme coincidence if such a virus also just happened to develop naturally!


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, we know that both sides were developing weaponized viruses for use against the other side. It would be a pretty extreme coincidence if such a virus also just happened to develop naturally!


Do we know for certain that said virus is weaponized? Could it be natural, like the Bubonic Plague, only something that the human body normally fights off? That's my point of it being the result of immune system failure, rather than man made.

On prime they take every precaution as if the killer virus was a natural event. Maybe the powers have learned that the only thing man engineered was a split that weakened our species. Perhaps we will soon learn of another event killing millions on Alpha, that uncovers a different defect on that side.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

I guess it's not just the Counterpart writer's room that has trouble with science.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> I guess it's not just the Counterpart writer's room that has trouble with science.


That's what they're counting on!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Well it is a TV show and no TV show ever made follows all the rules of the real world.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

aaronwt said:


> *Well it is a TV show* and no TV show ever made follows all the rules of the real world.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

"our world"?

so this is no longer alpha and prime, one of the 2 worlds is now "our world". 

Was this a shock to everyone else or am I making too much of it?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anubys said:


> "our world"?
> 
> so this is no longer alpha and prime, one of the 2 worlds is now "our world".
> 
> Was this a shock to everyone else or am I making too much of it?


You are making too much of it. I figured it was always assumed that one world was ours.
Which is the case with most shows. They are a fictional representation of our world.
Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB) using Tapatalk


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Was Quales's other the only one left in Echo?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Was Quales's other the only one left in Echo?


It looked like it. I assume anyone left alive was smart enough to leave!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> It looked like it. I assume anyone left alive was smart enough to leave!


He couldn't leave. He'd miss out on the football game!


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Rugby


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Another good episode today. I just finished watching it.

Sent from my Tab S 10.5 using Tapatalk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, all of a sudden Anubys's completely insane theory that Emily Alpha and Prime have switched places has become almost certainly true...  Still not sure how it could possibly work, but the way "Prime" was acting this week, there's really no other explanation.


I can't believe it! Those diabolical fiends actually tricked me into thinking Anubys was some kind of genius!  Interesting explanation for how "their" Emily needed help finding "her" vacation spot.

I loved the "couples therapy" that was going on on both sides. For a while, I thought they might end up really switching partners, but the ending makes that a more distant possibility.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

That Mira really is leaps and bounds more of a total ***** than previously thought.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Anubys said:


> "our world"?
> 
> so this is no longer alpha and prime, one of the 2 worlds is now "our world".
> 
> Was this a shock to everyone else or am I making too much of it?


You are not making too much of it if "our world" also means "our side which is morally superior to the other side and needs to defeat the other side".


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

I enjoyed it that in the end it turned out that Emily was using a book as a cipher as well as a signal.

It was consistent with Peter Quale's secretary saying she wished she would be alive to see it happening but I was disappointed that the Indigo plan is a relatively slow selective biological attack, not quick total nuclear destruction.

What I would really enjoy is if it turns out that Roland Fancher Director of Diplomacy is not a diplomat, he is a warmonger who planned and authorised biological attack on the other world - and Indigo trained Clare gets personal revenge.

For now I assume that Francher's riff about his daughter (the Clare who unbeknown to him was replaced by Indigo Clare) not being able to write the letter 0 properly is a plot point that is going to resurface. It could lead to the moment that Francher realises that his daughter has been replaced.

(the documents allegedly showing that the original 'flu epidemic was a deliberate attack could still turn out to be as fake as the Zinoviev letter)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pgogborn said:


> (the documents allegedly showing that the original 'flu epidemic was a deliberate attack could still turn out to be as fake as the Zinoviev letter)


Yeah, I've always suspected that they might have (accidentally) done it to themselves, and the more people on the show take for granted that we did it to them, the more obvious it becomes that we didn't.

I still hold some sliver of hope that last week's "revelation" that humans on the two sides have evolutionarily diverged enough in the 30 years since the worlds split for viruses to be genetically targeted against only one side is BS on the show as well as in reality, and that the other side realized this the hard way when their flu that was targeted against us got out and killed hundreds of millions of them instead...

(I am gladly adopting their own new description of "us" versus "them" as opposed to "prime" versus "alpha," because it's a lot easier to remember who's us and who's them... )


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wish the non-prime Howard and non-prime Emily would grow goatees so I'd be less confused.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I wish the non-prime Howard and non-prime Emily would grow goatees so I'd be less confused.


I've never had much difficulty distinguishing between the Howards. Usually at a glance.

If only Olivia Williams were that good...


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If only Olivia Williams were that good...


Unless I'm imagining things, the two Emilys have slightly different hairstyles.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That scene cutting between the conversations in the two worlds was amazing. Very well written. 

All season I've been feeling kind of blah about this show, but suddenly I can't wait to see what happens next week. 

I can understand why Emily Alpha would feel betrayed and want to kick Howard Prime out, but why didn't he at least say "I just killed these men that came here to kill you. They're going to send more. I need to stay here to protect you."


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I hope we get a S3, but from what I read, looks like this may be the final season (no decision from STARZ yet).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pgogborn said:


> For now I assume that Francher's riff about his daughter (the Clare who unbeknown to him was replaced by Indigo Clare) not being able to write the letter 0 properly is a plot point that is going to resurface. It could lead to the moment that Francher realises that his daughter has been replaced.


When did that happen? When he said "I didn't raise you this way"? I don't recall the zero part at all...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I can understand why Emily Alpha would feel betrayed and want to kick Howard Prime out, but why didn't he at least say "I just killed these men that came here to kill you. They're going to send more. I need to stay here to protect you."


Better yet "where is my Howard and tell me what the F is going on, why you're here, and what you want"...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Tony_T said:


> I hope we get a S3, but from what I read, looks like this may be the final season (no decision from STARZ yet).


Why does it look like it may be the final season? Renewals usually occur after a season has been aired.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Why does it look like it may be the final season? Renewals usually occur after a season has been aired.


I seem to recall something about the ratings dropping a lot...but then they picked up around episode 4 or so...still, I think that the ratings overall are not very good.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I would hope that if nothing else, it gets one more season (shortened if necessary) to allow some type of closure. I would think it's value to the STARZ On Demand library would be much greater with a real ending.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Anubys said:


> I seem to recall something about the ratings dropping a lot...but then they picked up around episode 4 or so...still, I think that the ratings overall are not very good.


Even here, the discussion is less than last season.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

I'll be disappointed if it doesn't get another season. It's a great show. But, I can see why the viewership dropped off so much. There's a lot to follow, you really have to pay attention. I did pay attention, but still forgot a lot between the seasons. Starz didn't provide any in depth recaps or refreshers to watch. I had to go find some lengthy written recaps of the whole first season before I felt like I could fully enjoy the second season. I don't think many people want to do that though. A good serialized show really needs something like that. If they made a really good recap a week or so ahead of time that would just auto-record with a season pass that would have helped immensely.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Legion Casts Game of Thrones Counterpart Veteran Harry Lloyd to Play Professor X


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> Legion Casts Game of Thrones Counterpart Veteran Harry Lloyd to Play Professor X


...which seems like a VERY strange choice, somebody who's made a career out of playing whiny morally-challenged weasels. Hopefully, he has a lot more range than he's shown so far!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Great episode. Another "where did the hour go" episode.

I will admit, I had to stop several times, and re-orient my brain as to who was who and where they were. My simple mind kept losing track of which side we were on, and if we were watching the Alpha or Prime character. Especially with Emily.

Nonetheless, well done episode, great writing and acting. Can't wait to see where we finish next week.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

“That’s who are. We kill people and eat breakfast.” 
— Howard to Baldwin


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

This is why you don't keep one guard on a prisoner and why the guard is outside the door, not inside.

Also, why you simply kill the terrorist instead of catching them and bringing them where you are.

when Dr. Evil asks why Austin Powers always foils their plans, Scott says "Because you never kill him when you have the chance and you're a big dope"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, Mira's plan was remarkably complex with a ton of moving parts, and if just one little thing had gone differently it would have all fallen apart. It's a miracle it worked.

My respect for the Counterpart writers actually dropped with that one...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I literally clapped after the Emily/Emily scene. She did an amazing job. Maybe JK Simmons gave her a few pointers.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095004044165181440
Starz will not be picking up a third season of the show. Unless a different network (or streaming service) picks it up, it looks like next week will be the series finale.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Where's the "Oh, man, I hate this" button?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

getbak said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095004044165181440
> Starz will not be picking up a third season of the show. Unless a different network (or streaming service) picks it up, it looks like next week will be the series finale.


Well that sucks!! 

That's two shows Starz cancelled on me. If I didn't have six months of Starz for only one dollar a month, I would cancel it as soon as Counterpart is over.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Oh damn that blows!


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Hello HBO, AMC, Netflix, SyFy.

Not the smartest move by Starz. Counterpart S2 is singlehandedly responsible for $15 of Starz revenue from me.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

When SyFy cancelled The Expanse, there was a online petition and Amazon picked it up


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Yeah, that sucks. I'm doubtful next week's season finale was designed to be a series finale.

This is not an easy show to watch at times. Like Westworld, you really have to pay attention. And that may have led to its downfall. But damn, the payoff is so worth it.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Possible reason for Starz not renewing:

'Counterpart' Canceled at Starz
_While a critical breakout with a cult following, the series was *unable to connect with a larger audience*, generating an average of under 500,000 total viewers with three days of delayed viewing. *As Starz continues to double down on Lionsgate-produced content now that the latter is the cabler's parent company*, Counterpart's status as a show from an outside studio with a *pricey licensing fee and cast* likely contributed to the cancellation. _​


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Counterpart is being shopped....


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

'Counterpart' Not Getting Third Season On Starz, Shopped To Other Nets By MRC

This piece is less optimistic.

"I hear Starz made its decision not to proceed with the series beyond its original two-season order in late December/early January. The cast extended their options until February 1 to give MRC, which is said to believe strongly in the show, time to find a new home. The actors' options have now expired, and they are free to get new series jobs, though I hear MRC is still pitching the series to potential buyers in the streaming space."

I will miss this one.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I was planning to watch. Does it wrap up well enough at the end of season 2?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> I was planning to watch. Does it wrap up well enough at the end of season 2?


We'll find out this Sunday! It was initially a two-season order, so hopefully they took that into account when they structured their story...


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I guess it’s already in the can and they still have hope for S3, but otherwise they should have wrapped it up by completely destroying both universes and collapsing them into the same singularity. That would be cool.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, Mira's plan was remarkably complex with a ton of moving parts, and if just one little thing had gone differently it would have all fallen apart. It's a miracle it worked.
> 
> My respect for the Counterpart writers actually dropped with that one...


Agree with this. I can understand Ian letting Mira out because of the threat to Ian's (new) wife, but the Fourth Floor is basically inaccessible. 99% of the people that work in that building could never get up there because if they did, and saw that it was nothing but a dilapidated mess, it would destroy the myth of "Management." So knowing that hundreds of people who have worked in this building for years have never been up to that floor, how are we supposed to believe that Mira just wandered up there by herself without anyone stopping her?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I can understand Ian letting Mira out because of the threat to Ian's (new) wife...


Although I don't buy her logic in assuming that Management MUST choose Ian and only Ian to guard her. It was a pretty spectacular stroke of luck that she turned out to be right on that one...

Etc, etc, etc. If they wanted Mira to have such an elaborate and intricate plan, they really should have spent some time over the past two seasons setting it up, instead of just springing it all on us out of the blue, which only exaggerates its implausibility. That kind of "genius" on the part of a character has to be earned, not just hand-waved in.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> how are we supposed to believe that Mira just wandered up there by herself without anyone stopping her?


Wasn't the building cleared out on both sides?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> Wasn't the building cleared out on both sides?


Yes, but presumably a section that absolutely cannot be walked in on without dire consequences would be...

...locked?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

3D said:


> Wasn't the building cleared out on both sides?


There's no way the security teams for the management personnel would simply evacuate and leave their protectees upstairs all alone.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Someone in the *Show updates: canceled, renewed, or ending *thread had a very good question: Was Counterpart cancelled on the Prime side, or just on the Alpha side?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

As I think about this more, I'm even more bothered by the fact that what turns out to be one of the most pivotal and important scenes of the whole series doesn't include any of the prominent characters that have been developed. We only have a caricature of a bad guy (Mira) and some cardboard cutouts (Management). Yanek was the only character in that room that had received any kind of character development, and even his development has been brief.

It seems that such a crucial scene which could impact the fate of all the other characters (and potentially the whole world) should include at least a couple of the series' most prominent characters. This would be like in a Star Wars movie, if the most crucial decision of the movie was made in a scene that only included Grand Moff Tarkin and Boba Fett.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, but presumably a section that absolutely cannot be walked in on without dire consequences would be...
> 
> ...locked?


You and your logic. I was just responding to the concern that nobody would be there to stop her.



DevdogAZ said:


> There's no way the security teams for the management personnel would simply evacuate and leave their protectees upstairs all alone.


I got nothing.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Tony_T said:


> Someone in the *Show updates: canceled, renewed, or ending *thread had a very good question: Was Counterpart cancelled on the Prime side, or just on the Alpha side?


The person who asked that was a true genius.

Glimpses of the differences in pop culture on both sides would be interesting -- presumably, a fair number of actors/musicians/writers/whatever died in the flu -- but, I know, way outside the scope of what they've been doing with the show.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> Agree with this. I can understand Ian letting Mira out because of the threat to Ian's (new) wife, but the Fourth Floor is basically inaccessible. 99% of the people that work in that building could never get up there because if they did, and saw that it was nothing but a dilapidated mess, it would destroy the myth of "Management." So knowing that hundreds of people who have worked in this building for years have never been up to that floor, how are we supposed to believe that Mira just wandered up there by herself without anyone stopping her?


One might presume that Mira has demonstrated enough competence for us to presume that defeating a skeleton crew of guards and a couple of locked doors could be taken as given.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> One might presume that Mira has demonstrated enough competence for us to presume that defeating a skeleton crew of guards and a couple of locked doors could be taken as given.


And she wasn't a big dope. She just killed everyone without feeding them first and then putting them in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.

I still don't understand how these management people -- who were just scientists in a regime that collapsed -- were able to sustain this system and the secret from all the world's governments for DECADES. Especially when they they showed us how interested the CIA was in the project before the world split!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Did Ian know that Mira was planning something catastrophic when he let her out of the cage?

What a brilliant plan to have Clare visit Spencer and ask a bunch of very obvious and specific questions about Mira's plans.

For reasons that have been posted above, I was disappointed with the last 20 minutes or so.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Agree with this. I can understand Ian letting Mira out because of the threat to Ian's (new) wife, but the Fourth Floor is basically inaccessible. 99% of the people that work in that building could never get up there because if they did, and saw that it was nothing but a dilapidated mess, it would destroy the myth of "Management." So knowing that hundreds of people who have worked in this building for years have never been up to that floor, how are we supposed to believe that Mira just wandered up there by herself without anyone stopping her?


The building was empty. They sent everyone home. And she probably killed any security personnel in the way.

Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB) using Tapatalk


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I still don't understand how these management people -- who were just scientists in a regime that collapsed -- were able to sustain this system and the secret from all the world's governments for DECADES. Especially when they they showed us how interested the CIA was in the project before the world split!


That's always been something that's kinda bugged me. It's the cousin to another thing that's always vexed me, how we only see one small square of this world, when there is no chance the entire world doesn't know about this. With as many crossers as we've been shown, someone has talked by now. So how does Management keep its hold, and why isn't this a world-wide issue?

But I just overlook all this, as the show is so good, and it really doesn't affect it on a micro (or macro) basis.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> There's no way the security teams for the management personnel would simply evacuate and leave their protectees upstairs all alone.


The security technique Management used was isolation from others, they did not want to be seen. Especially after the attack on the office they would not have entrusted their identities and lives with an Office of Interchange security team.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although I don't buy her logic in assuming that Management MUST choose Ian and only Ian to guard her. It was a pretty spectacular stroke of luck that she turned out to be right on that one...


All she had to rely on was that Ian would be in the building and still in a position of authority.

If other people had been guarding her Ian would still have gotten the the phone call, come to her cage, dismissed the other people and released her.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> That's always been something that's kinda bugged me. It's the cousin to another thing that's always vexed me, how we only see one small square of this world, when there is no chance the entire world doesn't know about this. With as many crossers as we've been shown, someone has talked by now. So how does Management keep its hold, and why isn't this a world-wide issue?
> 
> But I just overlook all this, as the show is so good, and it really doesn't affect it on a micro (or macro) basis.


Or, just like Stargate SG-1, have someone make a show about the topic so then everyone thinks the whistleblower is a nutjob who likes the show...

er...wait a minute!


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Or, just like Stargate SG-1, have someone make a show about the topic so then everyone thinks the whistleblower is a nutjob who likes the show...
> 
> er...wait a minute!


You mean WormholeXtreme!?!?

My Gamertag!!


----------



## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

Anubys said:


> I still don't understand how these management people -- who were just scientists in a regime that collapsed -- were able to sustain this system and the secret from all the world's governments for DECADES. Especially when they they showed us how interested the CIA was in the project before the world split!


Yeah, I have a hard time with how this is funded. If it is civilian, they are going to expect papers to be published or some kind of similar visibility. If it is military, there is going to be a steady stream of brass showing up wanting to kick the tires. Has there been any clue as to whether the people funding this thing think that it is still a science project? Management made some claim about breakthroughs coming from this. Maybe they have patents that allow this thing to fund itself? But where are all the scientists ... all we see are bureaucrats and spies?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

rpj22 said:


> Yeah, I have a hard time with how this is funded. If it is civilian, they are going to expect papers to be published or some kind of similar visibility. If it is military, there is going to be a steady stream of brass showing up wanting to kick the tires. Has there been any clue as to whether the people funding this thing think that it is still a science project? Management made some claim about breakthroughs coming from this. Maybe they have patents that allow this thing to fund itself? But where are all the scientists ... all we see are bureaucrats and spies?


Of course, with the technology exchanges it could easily be self-funding...not at the beginning, but as the worlds diverged...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, with the technology exchanges it could easily be self-funding...not at the beginning, but as the worlds diverged...


Except that the two worlds don't appear to be exchanging technology. Prime has significant advancements in health care that have not been made available in Alpha. Alpha has significant advancements in consumer technology that have not been made available in Prime.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that the two worlds don't appear to be exchanging technology. Prime has significant advancements in health care that have not been made available in Alpha. Alpha has significant advancements in consumer technology that have not been made available in Prime.


They have talked about exchanges, though (during their negotiations). And if the exchanges are limited, they'd be all the more valuable...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

... and there's the door in interface that allows the passing of technology.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

rpj22 said:


> But where are all the scientists ... all we see are bureaucrats and spies?


Apparently you've never worked for IBM.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

series5orpremier said:


> Apparently you've never worked for IBM.


Now I have coffee all over my monitor.

I spent my last decade of employment at Big Blue, perhaps that's why I find "Counterpart" perfectly believable.


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## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

series5orpremier said:


> Apparently you've never worked for IBM.


Actually I did, in the 1960s, but I was only a computer operator at the time, so maybe I was too early or too low on the totem pole to see what you saw. I thought the place was pretty well run at the time compared to other computer companies that I worked for later.

So how are you envisioning that this works? The scientists are offsite and a few who are in on the secret visit HQ/interface where they get the developments and take them back to their teams at the "Thomas J Watson Research Lab" where they pretend to have invented them?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm not surprised that they can get enough money with a few well-timed patents to keep this going. I just don't think they can do it without all the world's spies all over them. These people had connections outside of that building to carry weapons and have military-style (if not outright military) protection. Their building was on the news for being attacked by terrorists! 

Nothing about that complex is a secret!


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

series5orpremier said:


> Apparently you've never worked for IBM.


I have no idea what this refers to.


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## rpj22 (Mar 27, 2016)

Anubys said:


> I'm not surprised that they can get enough money with a few well-timed patents to keep this going. I just don't think they can do it without all the world's spies all over them. These people had connections outside of that building to carry weapons and have military-style (if not outright military) protection. Their building was on the news for being attacked by terrorists!
> 
> Nothing about that complex is a secret!


I wonder if it could be portrayed to the outside world as the German equivalent of a CIA front company, ala Atlantic Research. Competent enough to produce commercially viable products, but still known to be connected such that everyone knows not to ask questions or to poke around there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, that...worked. Enough closure to end the series; not enough to force it to end. It felt kind of like the end of the first book in a series.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I thought it was a good finale. Hopefully it gets picked up. One thing that puzzled me is who got to Yanik. As he was dying he has a flashback of Mira. 

Also had wished Howard Prime had brought along Baldwin. Would have been more believable of killing all those followers.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I thought it was a good finale. Hopefully it gets picked up. One thing that puzzled me is who got to Yanik. As he was dying he has a flashback of Mira.


Mira injected him with the flu virus as a backup (or supplemental) plan.


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## deli99 (Nov 12, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I thought it was a good finale. Hopefully it gets picked up. One thing that puzzled me is who got to Yanik. As he was dying he has a flashback of Mira.
> 
> Also had wished Howard Prime had brought along Baldwin. Would have been more believable of killing all those followers.


Yanik flashed back to getting injected with something when he was with Mira after getting out of the prison. I assume it was the virus. That means he's been exposing people in the Alpha world since he arrived, and the quarantine isn't complete.

Didn't Baldwin go back to Prime with Howard? They walked through the passage together.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

Cold-hearted. It was clear she intended him to suffer when she didn’t shoot him along with the rest of management but instead told him to go back to the other side while she was secretly intending to imminently launch a biological attack over there.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

deli99 said:


> Yanik flashed back to getting injected with something when he was with Mira after getting out of the prison. I assume it was the virus. That means he's been exposing people in the Alpha world since he arrived, and the quarantine isn't complete.
> 
> Didn't Baldwin go back to Prime with Howard? They walked through the passage together.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mira injected him with the flu virus as a backup (or supplemental) plan.


Mira is/was pure evil.

I was talking about the Airport scene with Prime.


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Mira injected him with the flu virus as a backup (or supplemental) plan.


I have got a feeling Mira released something different to and even more deadly than the original flu virus. But we will probably never know.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Good finale. 
Enjoyed the 2 seasons.
Still a chance that one of the big streamers will pick it up.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Some random questions I have after watching tonight:

If the Prime side has immunity to the new influenza such that said virus is a threat to Alpha and not to Prime, how is it that Mira's minions, all from the Prime side, can be carriers of the disease and that it would kill them? Or was Yanek always Mira's only intended vector for the disease, with the plague kids being a misdirection? (I still think differing immunity is absurd, but we must accept it as being part of the Counterpart Universe.)
So a hasty welding job is going to seal the crossing forever? Seems unlikely.
I also wonder why they didn't drill a hole and install a fiber optics cable. Cross-universe intellectual property traffic would have a significant payback, almost zero cost, and with very little risk. Maybe we'll see that in Season 3 on Amazon.

What the heck use is a terabyte flash drive unless it contains the engineering details of a 10 nanometer fab? (Hint: absolutely none. All it would show is that chips can be etched really, really small, and they obviously already know that fact. It would not give any hints as to how it can be manufactured.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> If the Prime side has immunity to the new influenza such that said virus is a threat to Alpha and not to Prime, how is it that Mira's minions, all from the Prime side, can be carriers of the disease and that it would kill them? Or was Yanek always Mira's only intended vector for the disease, with the plague kids being a misdirection? (I still think differing immunity is absurd, but we must accept it as being part of the Counterpart Universe.)


Must we? If there is no differing immunity, then everything pretty much makes sense...assuming Mira has figured that out.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Must we? If there is no differing immunity, then everything pretty much makes sense...assuming Mira has figured that out.


Either there is differing immunity, or at least Management believes so, or the plague side believe they have sufficient biotechnical resources to minimize its effect. Otherwise I don't believe it would be reasonable for Prime to risk another pandemic crossing back to their side, or for Alpha risking the same thing in the first place. It might be absurd in our universe, but it seems to me to be a requirement for consistency in the Counterpart universe. It pains me to say so, because I consider it a flaw in the story.

Once might expect Prime does have some level of immunity now, as a result of suffering the original influenza. But that was not true when the original plague was released, of course.

Interesting that Mira directed Yanek to her counterpart and children, after suggesting she was protecting them by staying away.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The cool thing is, the series is now over without this issue being resolved (and I assume from all existing evidence that the resolution would be idiotic). So I can now choose to believe that there is no evolutionary divergence between the two sides in a mere 30 years, that everybody in the show is delusional for believing there is, and that both sides would be equally affected by either side's flu strain.

So there!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Hopefully another outlet will pick up and continue this quality series. Maybe move it to Vancouver and hire cheaper actors.

Mira, you suck.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

J.K. Simmons is set to guest star as a former player turned announcer on Brockmire S3 (Apr 3rd)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The cool thing is, the series is now over without this issue being resolved (and I assume from all existing evidence that the resolution would be idiotic). So I can now choose to believe that there is no evolutionary divergence between the two sides in a mere 30 years, that everybody in the show is delusional for believing there is, and that both sides would be equally affected by either side's flu strain.
> 
> So there!


If the evolutionary divergence happened, it happened within just the first year or two, because that's when Alpha created the Munich virus as a weapon against Prime. Did they ever specifically say that there had been biological evolution, or could we simply choose to believe that the two sides started with minor differences in biological chemistry and the scientists simply discovered these differences and designed the virus to exploit those differences?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> If the evolutionary divergence happened, it happened within just the first year or two, because that's when Alpha created the Munich virus as a weapon against Prime. Did they ever specifically say that there had been biological evolution, or could we simply choose to believe that the two sides started with minor differences in biological chemistry and the scientists simply discovered these differences and designed the virus to exploit those differences?


But the two sides started exactly identical. They only slowly began to diverge over a period of years.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I don’t understand the need to invent wild narrative assumptions that were never part of the writing of the show. There’s nothing unscientific about a deadly virus taking hold in one region while not gaining much traction in another, particularly when there’s restricted travel and varied weather between the two. Any mention of a virus intentionally targeting one side was more likely propaganda from Mira to generate hate in her students.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> I don't understand the need to invent wild narrative assumptions that were never part of the writing of the show. There's nothing unscientific about a deadly virus taking hold in one region while not gaining much traction in another, particularly when there's restricted travel and varied weather between the two. Any mention of a virus intentionally targeting one side was more likely propaganda from Mira to generate hate in her students.


Except the scientists who eventually became Management created the virus specifically to be used as a weapon against the other side ("If we're thinking about it, so are they") and this all happened when Mira was a teenager.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I speak mainly of the the notion that a flu was/could be engineered to work against one side but not the other. It’s such an imprecise weapon even Mira basically throws it over the wall and shuts the door. The original flu outbreak could have just as easily been an accidental release on it’s originating side or coincidental unrelated deadly virus as opposed to an intentional attack. Unless the writers offer more details, the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

series5orpremier said:


> I speak mainly of the the notion that a flu was/could be engineered to work against one side but not the other. It's such an imprecise weapon even Mira basically throws it over the wall and shuts the door. The original flu outbreak could have just as easily been an accidental release on it's originating side or coincidental unrelated deadly virus as opposed to an intentional attack. Unless the writers offer more details, the simplest explanation is probably the most likely one.


I suggest you rewatch the show, and this time pay attention. You seem to have missed some things.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

No thanks. I suggest whatever it is you think I missed are just more of your own prejudices/assumptions that you’ve overlaid onto the material.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Interesting that Mira directed Yanek to her counterpart and children, after suggesting she was protecting them by staying away.


It's not just interesting, it's one more layer of evil that she clearly directed him to them to make sure that they are the first people infected. She told him where to find them and even mentioned how the other Mira has a nice life. He wasn't just a backup plan, he was also her foolproof plan to make sure her other did not escape a horrible death.

As far as infecting others, I think the carriers were going to die as well (or maybe not) but - more importantly - they didn't become infectious until they started to show symptoms (maybe?).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> No thanks. I suggest whatever it is you think I missed are just more of your own prejudices/assumptions that you've overlaid onto the material.


I'm pretty sure the show made it clear that the virus was released on the Prime side by the Alpha side. We were initially made to think it might have been an accident, but I thought we heard someone reliable from the Alpha side acknowledge the existence of a memo that admitted the release was orchestrated by Alpha.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm pretty sure the show made it clear that the virus was released on the Prime side by the Alpha side. We were initially made to think it might have been an accident, but I thought we heard someone reliable from the Alpha side acknowledge the existence of a memo that admitted the release was orchestrated by Alpha.


Although they (the writers) were pretty ambiguous (I would say needlessly so, which implies they're hiding something)...it could just be that the memo proved the virus existed.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I’d like them to show the details of exactly what happened in season 3. I understand the main focus was just to show the paranoia and mistrust between the two sides (no matter how founded or ironic it is), but I don’t see what there is to gain from using a flu virus as a weapon as opposed to Yanek’s wish of just shutting down the crossing. As mentioned before, it’s a very imprecise weapon and certainly isn’t Doomsday caliber to completely destroy an entire universe. The plague only killed 7% of the world population on the affected side (Prime?) but I understand a significant portion of those deaths would have been in Germany. All that can do is anger the other side and eventually lead to escalation. The name the Munich virus suggests someone could have first transported it from Berlin to Munich before it was released, and a quarantined crossing could do the rest toward limiting any affect in Alpha.

Another pet peeve - the Yaneks concocting the experiment of introducing music to one of the Miras to see what happens. Real scientists would be more concerned with understanding the conditions in the cyclotron and how that caused the universe to split in two (not that there’s any way to reverse it), and the series didn’t address that.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> I'd like them to show the details of exactly what happened in season 3. I understand the main focus was just to show the paranoia and mistrust between the two sides (no matter how founded or ironic it is), but I don't see what there is to gain from using a flu virus as a weapon as opposed to Yanek's wish of just shutting down the crossing. As mentioned before, it's a very imprecise weapon and certainly isn't Doomsday caliber to completely destroy an entire universe. The plague only killed 7% of the world population on the affected side (Prime?) but I understand a significant portion of those deaths would have been in Germany. All that can do is anger the other side and eventually lead to escalation. The name the Munich virus suggests someone could have first transported it from Berlin to Munich before it was released, and a quarantined crossing could do the rest toward limiting any affect in Alpha.


Mira wasn't trying to completely destroy the other side. She simply wanted revenge for what happened to her side, and was using the same basic "weapon" that was used against her side. And the closing of the crossing would prevent the Alpha side from getting medical research from the Prime side to help combat the outbreak.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

My point is even though Prime, or Mira’, believe Alpha started the original plague, I don’t see Alpha’s motive to do so because they wouldn’t have had the same revenge narrative. Also, if Alpha is so bad at medical technology that they need Prime’s help, how could they have developed the original plague?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> My point is even though Prime, or Mira', believe Alpha started the original plague, I don't see Alpha's motive to do so because they wouldn't have had the same revenge narrative. Also, if Alpha is so bad at medical technology that they need Prime's help, how could they have developed the original plague?


I'm not sure why you're questioning things that were clearly established by the show. We know Yanek Alpha created the virus. We know it was released on the Prime side. We were led to believe Alpha released it on the Prime side. We don't know what the motive was, but it doesn't matter. And we know that because of the virus, Prime's advances in medical research and technology were much greater than Alpha's. So it's not a matter of Alpha being so bad, it's just a matter of Prime being better. Plus, I think creating the virus would be significantly easier than figuring out how to stop an outbreak.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It wasn't Yanek, it was Juma (the immunologist). And it was both Jumas.

The advances in medical technology came after the outbreak; when the Jumas developed the flu viri, both sides were at the same level.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It wasn't Yanek, it was Juma (the immunologist). And it was both Jumas.
> 
> The advances in medical technology came after the outbreak; when the Jumas developed the flu viri, both sides were at the same level.


It was Yanek (Alpha) that proposed the idea of a biological weapon to Juma (Alpha).



> JUMA: Yes, there was some irregularity. At the cellular level.
> 
> YANEK: One system collides with the other, the environment changes, yes? Which means our immune systems must be growing apart.
> 
> ...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm not sure why you're questioning things that were clearly established by the show.


It has been established earlier that those things are just our assumptions and prejudices.



DevdogAZ said:


> Plus, I think creating the virus would be significantly easier than figuring out how to stop an outbreak.


Hmm. Haven't we been able for some time to deal with plagues by prophylactic measures, quarantine, vaccines, and just plain letting those without immunity die? On the other hand, creating a weaponized virus is only at the edge of possibility today.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

So I received this email
Form Starz yesterday asking for my opinion on Counterpart. I subscribe thru Apple in the Starz app for my Apple TV. 
I hope everyone get this and tells Starz how they are upset about the show being dropped.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm not sure why you're questioning things that were clearly established by the show.


The relative moral culpability between the sides is an important part of the story, and they just never clarified that. Perhaps it was on the slate for season three.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

So some thoughts about the show. We just finish binging it. First I thought it was brilliant with a lot of parallels to our world. The obvious one being west and east Berlin.

Scenario 1: Setup for renewal
Yanek is infected with the flu and the cycle repeats. They could go two ways: One is current time with the the surviving Emily, Howards, and the Romeo and Juliet couple.
Another is 30 years or so in the future with the flu having run its course with new players and the same anger.

Scenario 2: Setup for finale.
Yanek was not infected with the flu but simply a slow poison as revenge for killing Indigo Mira's father.

An observation: It seemed to me that the scene in the woods where Emily was walking away with the Indigo terrorist girl was from a different vantage point that we saw when she was sitting on the porch and the Interface people were approaching.
This seemed different enough to me to imply that somebody else was watching to possibly make sure she stepped on ttrip wire and fulfilled her mission or something else. They could have had a 1 second shot of showing this stranger and then cut it out last week when they knew the renewal was not happening. Anybody else wonder about this or am I imagining things.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

zalusky said:


> An observation: It seemed to me that the scene in the woods where Emily was walking away with the Indigo terrorist girl was from a different vantage point that we saw when she was sitting on the porch and the Interface people were approaching.
> This seemed different enough to me to imply that somebody else was watching to possibly make sure she stepped on ttrip wire and fulfilled her mission or something else. They could have had a 1 second shot of showing this stranger and then cut it out last week when they knew the renewal was not happening. Anybody else wonder about this or am I imagining things.


I recall the different angle view (also when they were both seated on the bench), thought it was another view from her team, but you have a good point.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zalusky said:


> An observation: It seemed to me that the scene in the woods where Emily was walking away with the Indigo terrorist girl was from a different vantage point that we saw when she was sitting on the porch and the Interface people were approaching.
> This seemed different enough to me to imply that somebody else was watching to possibly make sure she stepped on ttrip wire and fulfilled her mission or something else. They could have had a 1 second shot of showing this stranger and then cut it out last week when they knew the renewal was not happening. Anybody else wonder about this or am I imagining things.





Tony_T said:


> I recall the different angle view (also when they were both seated on the bench), thought it was another view from her team, but you have a good point.


Yes, there were people on the "good guy" team viewing that conversation between Emily and the terrorist girl from multiple angles. One was the primary shot from where most of the "good guys" were standing, but the other was from somewhere off to the "good guys'" right, looking more through the trees. But I never took that as some other terrorist watching to make sure the girl carried out her mission. I figured the girl either (a) was genuinely moved by Emily's talking and fully intended to turn herself in, but then changed her mind as she stood up and realized all the interrogation, torture, and punishment she was about to endure; or (b) she never had any intention of turning herself in, but she faked it just so she could get to the trip wire.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I thought the girl saw Howard Silk and decided Emily was faking her sincerity since Howard is a bad guy...and that's when she tripped the wire...I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it...


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

'Counterpart': Starz Drama "Too Male" To Score Third Season - TCA - Deadline

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154902949140631552


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> 'Counterpart': Starz Drama "Too Male" To Score Third Season - TCA - Deadline


I also watch The Rook and Vida on Starz. While the Rook has a younger, more female ensemble, it's still a male-type SF story (based on Starz logic). And who knows WTF Vida is classified as.

Geez, I always thought eyeballs was the concern. Now it's "do enough of the right type viewer watch this premium channel series"?

Clearly Starz is for sale. Let's dress it up and move it out.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

_"Counterpart was a great show, we had great partners in MRC and Justin is a great writer, *but it was a very complicated show*, a very male show. We had picked that show up and made a two season commitment before we'd honed in on this premium female strategy," he said.

"When you look at bringing shows back, it really has to serve that core premium female audience and if it doesn't we have to find something else," Hirsch added. "If it doesn't serve our core strategy, we're just not going to do it."
_
The Rook won't be back, too _complicated_


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

So I guess women are...simple?


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

What a stupid reason for canceling a great show. But who said TV executives where smart.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

After I cancelled Starz because they cancelled Counterpart they kept sending me marketing e-mails to come back at a discount. Their pitch was that they’re the channel for women and they’re the channel for LGBT content. What’s wrong with being the channel for everybody? They’re telling me I’m not an important demographic to them but still have the nerve to ask me to patronize their exclusionary gender bias .

Not to mention Counterpart had numerous great female characters who were part of the central ‘action’, not sitting on the sidelines.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

Ugh, what a stupid thing to say! Yes it was a complicated show, that doesn't make it a "male show". I loved it, my mom loved it.... my dad couldn't stay awake for it. I think his favorite show now is *Call the Midwife*, which I'm sure executives would consider a "female show". I think the real problem with a drop in *Counterpart* ratings was their total lack of any comprehensive recaps. Not everyone wants to re-watch past seasons before they start the new one. Also, doesn't the demographics matter less on premium channels? It's not like they run commercials during the show and have to miss out on all those lucrative tampon ads when not enough women watch!

I hope *Dark *on Netflix isn't considered a "male show" too, since I'm really enjoying that one so far.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Did Starz remove Counterpart from their streaming service?
I can't seem to find it.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Yes they did remove it after they cancelled it. Starz is really that stupid. 
You can buy them on iTunes. 
Counterpart, Season 1 by Counterpart ‎Counterpart, Season 1

Counterpart, Season 2 by Counterpart ‎Counterpart, Season 2


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Weird. Starz still has some very old shows available, like Magic City. 
Maybe Hulu will pick up the old shows (thanks for the Apple links)


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I suspect someone else owns the streaming rights and it will show up on a different streaming platform sometime soon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I notice they never did a blu-ray for Season 2...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

According to Just Watch, Counterpart is available for purchase from Amazon, Apple iTunes, Fandango, VuDu, Google Play and Redbox; although Google Plan and Redbox only have season 1.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

How was Season 2? I watched the first season and liked it, but I got delayed starting the second season. By the time I was ready to watch it, I heard it was cancelled, so I never went back to it.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

It was great.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Almost as great as the first season!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Does it end on a cliffhanger? I hate when shows I like end a season on a cliffhanger and then get cancelled.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gweempose said:


> Does it end on a cliffhanger? I hate when shows I like end a season on a cliffhanger and then get cancelled.


Well, then, unleash the full fury of your hatred.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I incorrectly thought it would be on the Starz App for awhile, wish I didn't delete it from TiVo (don't want to purchase it)


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Counterpart is now up on Amazon Prime, for those that didn't finish before they removed it from Starz.

A full resurrection on Amazon does not appear to be in the cards.


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## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Just watched both seasons on Prime. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Always like JK Simmons. Although it was canceled and Justin Marks was unsuccessful finding another home I think it wrapped up well.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

VegasVic said:


> Just watched both seasons on Prime. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Always like JK Simmons. Although it was canceled and Justin Marks was unsuccessful finding another home I think it wrapped up well.


When I saw this thread in the "recent" threads I was hoping maybe there was some news-like another network picked it up or something. I would love to see MORE!


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

Happy to see people still finding this great show. Years later.


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