# TiVo & Cables Inevitable MPEG4 Transition



## pjw150 (May 20, 2014)

From the blog Zatz Not Funny!

Roamio and Premiere units are ready to tune  having already cut their teeth on smaller scale channel conversions on Cox and FiOS. Unfortunately, TiVo Stream and Roamio Pro/Plus transcoding wont be ready until 2015.

What will be the impacts for TiVo users?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Ive been chatting with Dave about this.....

I have a TiVoHD but we only subscribe to limited basic for locals/HD in our corner of MA. I should be ok.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The main impact from my perspective is that, with MPEG4 (h.264) recordings, you can only do TTG in transport stream mode, and tivodecode doesn't handle it properly yet.

Objectively, the biggest impact is on Series 3 units, which haven't had their software updated to tune these channels (the hardware is capable).

Other than that, there's really nothing. We have a bunch of Fios channels in h.264, and they work exactly the same as the MPEG-2 channels, on Series 4 and 5.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> The main impact from my perspective is that, with MPEG4 (h.264) recordings, you can only do TTG in transport stream mode, and tivodecode doesn't handle it properly yet.
> 
> Objectively, the biggest impact is on Series 3 units, which haven't had their software updated to tune these channels (the hardware is capable).
> 
> Other than that, there's really nothing. We have a bunch of Fios channels in h.264, and they work exactly the same as the MPEG-2 channels, on Series 4 and 5.


One thing to note though about Series 3 units, even though the hardware may be capable of handling it once the software is updated, you still may not get the channels if you are with COX. So far all of COX's H.264 Channels are out of range of the S3's Tuner, and require the 1Ghz tuner which the newer TiVo Unites have.

That being said, I don't see The Series 3 software being updated to handle it unless full cable systems start converting over to H.264.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

LoREvanescence said:


> That being said, I don't see The Series 3 software being updated to handle it unless full cable systems start converting over to H.264.


Indeed, I don't see it being updated under _any_ circumstances. It just irritates me, because I know it _could_ be.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

So many pissed off people about the lack of Stream support for MPEG4 it's not even funny  Don't have any idea why TiVo wouldn't push the update out immediately.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

JWhites said:


> So many pissed off people about the lack of Stream support for MPEG4 it's not even funny  Don't have any idea why TiVo wouldn't push the update out immediately.


It affects relatively few people, and very few channels *at the moment.* If they are really talking about early 2015 then that's pretty quick.

Rumor has it that TiVo has a significant stream update already scheduled for this fall, so the MPEG4 update is next in queue.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> Indeed, I don't see it being updated under _any_ circumstances. It just irritates me, because I know it _could_ be.


I agree, it is an update that absolutely should be done for the S3 models. It is going to murder the resale value of lifetime S3 TiVo's


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

bradleys said:


> I agree, it is an update that absolutely should be done for the S3 models. It is going to murder the resale value of lifetime S3 TiVo's


That's probably what TiVo wants to happen. If I owned an S3 I would be upset about this too, but from TiVo's perspective it would be a good thing to get all these older units off the secondary market so that more people would have to buy more current equipment from them.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

bradleys said:


> It affects relatively few people, and very few channels *at the moment.* If they are really talking about early 2015 then that's pretty quick.
> 
> Rumor has it that TiVo has a significant stream update already scheduled for this fall, so the MPEG4 update is next in queue.


Is it normal for them to release a major update for the Stream so close to another major update for the Stream? (New to the Stream) That would be like Apple releasing iOS8 only a month after iOS7 or Windows releasing two service packs three weeks apart.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

JWhites said:


> Is it normal for them to release a major update for the Stream so close to another major update for the Stream? (New to the Stream) That would be like Apple releasing iOS8 only a month after iOS7 or Windows releasing two service packs three weeks apart.


They probably just want to take it one step at a time rather than trying to do both at the same time.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> They probably just want to take it one step at a time rather than trying to do both at the same time.


I agree - and this is the first update that I know of for the Stream itself. TiVo doesn't follow an Apple style release schedule. They generally try to deliver components of functionality a couple of times a year.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

bradleys said:


> I agree, it is an update that absolutely should be done for the S3 models. It is going to murder the resale value of lifetime S3 TiVo's


The value has dropped drastically already and any value after cable makes the switch to MPEG-4 will be for OTA and that demand is not great. I will continue to use mine and not worry about it.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I was able to sell a couple of S3's on Craigslist over the weekend for $200 each - I didn't think that was too bad for a 2 gen old product.

I think the secondary market is a great boost for TiVo, I hate to see a whole generation of HD TiVo's become bricks overnight.

They will make good OTA boxes for pennies...


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

LoREvanescence said:


> One thing to note though about Series 3 units, even though the hardware may be capable of handling it once the software is updated, you still may not get the channels if you are with COX. So far all of COX's H.264 Channels are out of range of the S3's Tuner, and require the 1Ghz tuner which the newer TiVo Unites have.


Cox Arizona is no longer using frequencies above 860Mhz for the MPEG4/H.264 channels. Cox AZ has moved them all to SDV and below 860Mhz.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo is never going to update the S3 units, even if the hardware supports it. They have zero financial incentive to do so. The number of S3 units in service is small and all of the ones with lifetime have long rolled off their books.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> The main impact from my perspective is that, with MPEG4 (h.264) recordings, you can only do TTG in transport stream mode, and tivodecode doesn't handle it properly yet.


You say 'yet'. Is anybody actually working on it?

I'd love for it to handle transport stream, since that's the only way to get subtitles back ([email protected]$! Tivo regression) when transferring back to Tivo.. yes, I know you can transfer normally, decode, then transfer BACK in transport stream mode, but that's even more steps.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

bradleys said:


> I agree - and this is the first update that I know of for the Stream itself. TiVo doesn't follow an Apple style release schedule. They generally try to deliver components of functionality a couple of times a year.


There was an update about a year ago that took care of a fan speed issue and introduced the out of home streaming.


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## whitmans77 (Mar 6, 2003)

I live in the area impacted next month and have 1 lifetime s3 and 1 s3 on a 6.95 plan. Will be very interesting to see what upgrade offers i can get


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You're not going to get a better deal than the fleabay discount codes, IMO.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

whitmans77 said:


> I live in the area impacted next month and have 1 lifetime s3 and 1 s3 on a 6.95 plan. Will be very interesting to see what upgrade offers i can get


They will probably let you transfer that monthly rate to a Roamio if you get it from TiVo. I know I transferred that rate from a TiVoHD to a launch Premiere when they came out. Then last November, TiVo let me transfer that $6.95 rate from the Premiere to a Roamio Basic. Then they gave me lifetime service for $99 on the Premiere. I would think they would at least offer you the same type of deal for your $6.95 a month S3. It's a win for TiVo and a win for you.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mattack said:


> You say 'yet'. Is anybody actually working on it?


Eh, not really. It's on my "To Do" list...

We do have the partially-working results of a previous effort that kind of went off the rails.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mattack said:


> You say 'yet'. Is anybody actually working on it?
> 
> I'd love for it to handle transport stream, since that's the only way to get subtitles back ([email protected]$! Tivo regression) when transferring back to Tivo.. yes, I know you can transfer normally, decode, then transfer BACK in transport stream mode, but that's even more steps.


Just install TiVo Desktop and then use something like DirectShow Dump to decode them instead. The filter that comes with TiVo Desktop can decrypt TS files just fine.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

What effect is this move going to have on a Roamio's overall performance/responsiveness?

Doesn't mpeg 4 take more cpu processing power to decode than mpeg2?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The decoding is done via a special chip, not in the CPU, so it'll have no effect on performance. In fact if it has any effect on performance it'll be positive as the lower bitrates of H.264 streams will result in less disk I/O.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

And it means you can store more shows on the hard drive since an H.264 show will take up less space than an MPEG2 one. That's the main reason I wish FiOS would switch more channels to H.264. But they seem to have put their plans on hold to convert more channels to H.264.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

H.264 encoders are still pretty expensive. If they don't need the bandwidth I could see them waiting until their existing equipment hits EOL before upgrading.

Plus transitioning to H.264 means having to replace a LOT of the boxes deployed in the field, so that's an added expense as well.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The decoding is done via a special chip, not in the CPU, so it'll have no effect on performance. In fact if it has any effect on performance it'll be positive as the lower bitrates of H.264 streams will result in less disk I/O.


OK so it already has that chip. I knew Apple has been big on H.264 and their devices all have special chips in them. I wasn't sure Tivo had that or not.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Plus transitioning to H.264 means having to replace a LOT of the boxes deployed in the field, so that's an added expense as well.


Luckily, in places that have recently gone all-digital, any customers who got a box recently already will have a box with support for h.264. Most cable companies seem to put a few channels on it for a while just to test it and to get older box owners to upgrade. So I don't think it will be as difficult as the all-digital switch.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

trip1eX said:


> OK so it already has that chip. I knew Apple has been big on H.264 and their devices all have special chips in them. I wasn't sure Tivo had that or not.


Yeah TiVos have had the chip to decode H.264 since the S3 units.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> Just install TiVo Desktop and then use something like DirectShow Dump to decode them instead. The filter that comes with TiVo Desktop can decrypt TS files just fine.


None of that is relevant for Macs.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You could use parallels.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

bradleys said:


> I was able to sell a couple of S3's on Craigslist over the weekend for $200 each - I didn't think that was too bad for a 2 gen old product.
> 
> I think the secondary market is a great boost for TiVo, I hate to see a whole generation of HD TiVo's become bricks overnight.
> 
> They will make good OTA boxes for pennies...


It is sad that the beautifully designed S3 648 (withe OLED) will become truly obsolete for anything but OTA. I love those units. Non of the subsequent models have been so beautifully designed.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is never going to update the S3 units, even if the hardware supports it. They have zero financial incentive to do so. The number of S3 units in service is small and all of the ones with lifetime have long rolled off their books.


Dan,

Is the number of S3/HD models in service really that small compared to Premiere and Roamio's? (And no I don't believe that there's a chance they'll upgrade them).

I hope Comcast takes a long time before they get to our small town with MPEG4 as our S3's OLEDs are still doing what we want and need (and I just upgraded to 2TB drives.) 

Scott


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

By "in service" I meant paying monthly. Lifetime units are written off after 3 years, so even though the could technically be considered a sub they provide zero financial benefit to TiVo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> By "in service" I meant paying monthly. Lifetime units are written off after 3 years, so even though the could technically be considered a sub they provide zero financial benefit to TiVo.


I thought Lifetime units were not counted after 5.5 years?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Doesn't the update process kill the HD on a percentage of units? I wonder if it's more likely to toast older units. Imagine the foil hat brigade if S3s and THDs started failing for an upgrade that may not even impact them.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

This discussion is just another reason why I dumped Tivo in favor of HTPCs many years ago. I went through a similar situation with my HR10-250 Tivos and DirecTV when they switched to mpeg4 transmissions on their satellites for HD. I was about to be stuck with several expensive Tivos (they originally retailed for $999.00) that were going to essentially become obsolete with respect to receiving anything from DirecTV in HD. I was torn between sticking with DirecTV and using their DVRs or switching to cable. When Verizon announced that they were bringing FIOS to my neighborhood the choice was an easy one. I switched to FIOS and purchased a S3 Tivo.

Fast forward several years later and Ceton announced their InfiniTV 4 cablecard tuner. I had already been using a HTPC to supplement my DirecTV lineup so I could get all of my local channels in HD. This was another major reason for dumping DirecTV because they don't allow you to access more than one local market and even then may not supply all of the locals in that market.

The point being, switching to mpeg4 with a HTPC is simply a matter of installing the proper codecs. WMC may actually handle mpeg4 natively, but I've got a codec pack installed that will handle any video format you can throw at it. One of my major pet peeves with Tivo is that it's a fixed platform that will only handle the formats it's programmed to play. Tivo is basically forcing anyone with a S3 Tivo to get a new Tivo if their provider switches over to mpeg4 transmissions.

Tivo needs to do the right thing here and either update the software on all S3's to handle mpeg4 or allow current S3 users with lifetime to transfer the lifetime over to a new Tivo at no charge. I wouldn't expect Tivo to sell them a new Roamio at the subsidized price, but at least offer it at a reasonable discount. Otherwise, getting a cablecard tuner and selling that useless Tivo is starting to look like a pretty good option.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tivo needs to do the right thing here and either update the software on all S3's to handle mpeg4 or allow current S3 users with lifetime to transfer the lifetime over to a new Tivo at no charge. I wouldn't expect Tivo to sell them a new Roamio at the subsidized price, but at least offer it at a reasonable discount. Otherwise, getting a cablecard tuner and selling that useless Tivo is starting to look like a pretty good option.


Yeah, good luck with that. They already have a support doc out for Comcast's Augusta migration that says S3s and HDs will need to be upgraded.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

From my experience from customers with Verizon FiOS, TiVo sent S3 owners an email with coupon codes for discounts on Premieres.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Doesn't MPEG-4 screw around with the listed capacities of TiVo? Like a 500GB hard drive is listed for 75 hours of HD recording on both the packaging and in the System Info screen, but is that for only applicable for MPEG-2 HD recordings? Isn't MPEG-4 supposed to be a better compression codec thus making file sizes smaller thus leaving more room on the hard drive for other recordings? If a TiVo is used in a 100% MPEG-4 environment would the currently listed capacity mean nothing, and furthermore if more carriers go 100% MPEG-4 would TiVo have to either reconfigure how they calculate recording capacity or repackage products, eg "75 HD hours MPEG-2 or xx HD hours MPEG-4" and does any of this cause any harm to the hard drive such as MPEG-4 causing more wear and tear then MPEG-2?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

JWhites said:


> From my experience from customers with Verizon FiOS, TiVo sent S3 owners an email with coupon codes for discounts on Premieres.


That's great, but will Tivo let them transfer their lifetime service to the new Tivo? If not then it's a slap in the face from Tivo.



JWhites said:


> Doesn't MPEG-4 screw around with the listed capacities of TiVo? Like a 500GB hard drive is listed for 75 hours of HD recording on both the packaging and in the System Info screen, but is that for only applicable for MPEG-2 HD recordings? Isn't MPEG-4 supposed to be a better compression codec thus making file sizes smaller thus leaving more room on the hard drive for other recordings? If a TiVo is used in a 100% MPEG-4 environment would the currently listed capacity mean nothing, and furthermore if more carriers go 100% MPEG-4 would TiVo have to either reconfigure how they calculate recording capacity or repackage products, eg "75 HD hours MPEG-2 or xx HD hours MPEG-4" and does any of this cause any harm to the hard drive such as MPEG-4 causing more wear and tear then MPEG-2?


The current capacity listed is only a ballpark guess at best as each and every recording is transmitted with varying bitrates. Mpeg4 won't cause any more wear and tear on a hard drive than any other type of programming. It's all just a bunch of 1's and 0's.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tivo needs to do the right thing here and either update the software on all S3's to handle mpeg4 or allow current S3 users with lifetime to transfer the lifetime over to a new Tivo at no charge. I wouldn't expect Tivo to sell them a new Roamio at the subsidized price, but at least offer it at a reasonable discount. Otherwise, getting a cablecard tuner and selling that useless Tivo is starting to look like a pretty good option.


I agree with you and believe TiVo should throw the S3's a lifeline and update them for mpeg4 - but I do not expect it.

I also have been around long enough to know TiVo isn't about to transfer lifetime to a new box for free. Although, they may offer some type of a discount program to transfer lifetime. And I think they should...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo owes support for that product !! ??


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

lessd said:


> The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo *owes support* for that product !! ??


Owes Support? No, I wouldn't put it that way. I upgraded my last S3 about a year ago and sold them. But this goes to managing your ecosystem and ensuring the products you sell today represent a level of ongoing value - especially considering the premium nature of the product.

If TiVo unceremoniously abandons an entire product line, this will be a point of customer dissatisfaction that they will have to deal with for years. What is that worth to the TiVo bottom line?

I do not think TiVo will send out a software fix (although that may very well be the easiest option available to them). But, they could save a lot of face and reputation by offering a simple $100 discount off an S5 lifetime service fee with a qualifying S3 lifetime "transfer".

A one to one transfer? Not even remotely possible.


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## DebiLee (Aug 25, 2014)

I wish they would bring the OLED display back.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

JWhites said:


> If a TiVo is used in a 100% MPEG-4 environment would the currently listed capacity mean nothing


I hate to tell you, but it already means nothing. It only meant anything back in the analog days, when the TiVo did its own encoding, so it controlled the bit rate, and measuring the capacity in "hours" was actually possible. Nowadays, in the digital realm, you get a wide variety of bit rates (varying even within a single program), which the TiVo records as-is. _This is true even when considering only MPEG-2._ "Hours" has never been anything but a very broad estimate, in the era of digital TV. (It makes more sense just to look at the HD size in GB, which is a real number.)

And when I say "broad", I mean it can vary by a factor of 2, or more, just on HD recordings (and just talking MPEG-2).



> _does any of this cause any harm to the hard drive such as MPEG-4 causing more wear and tear then MPEG-2?_


I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Ok makes sense. :up:


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo owes support for that product !! ??


Let me put it this way. If I buy a product and then purchase lifetime support for said product at a premium price and that product is still alive and well, then, yes, Tivo should support it. Lifetime support indicates that as long as the unit is functional, Tivo should support it, period.

That being said, supporting the transition to a video format other than what the unit was originally designed to handle is an entirely different matter. I honestly don't have any expectations that Tivo will provide a software update for existing S3's to enable mpeg4 playback. Recording mpeg4 broadcasts shouldn't be an issue since the Tivo is just copying the digital stream directly to the hard drive. The incompatibility only comes into play during playback.


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## DanielTB80 (Nov 27, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Let me put it this way. If I buy a product and then purchase lifetime support for said product at a premium price and that product is still alive and well, then, yes, Tivo should support it. Lifetime support indicates that as long as the unit is functional, Tivo should support it, period.


Tivo has never offered Lifetime Support, they have only offered TiVo Lifetime Service, which is two different things. Support is only offered for three years and that is if the unit breaks. The Service Subscription agreement covers the guide data and day to day functionality of the unit and as Tivo notes in the agreement, functionality might change.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

DanielTB80 said:


> Tivo has never offered Lifetime Support, they have only offered TiVo Lifetime Service, which is two different things. Support is only offered for three years and that is if the unit breaks. The Service Subscription agreement covers the guide data and day to day functionality of the unit and as Tivo notes in the agreement, functionality might change.


Right or wrong, this is the situation that TiVo is going to have he weather... A lot of upset customers that will post negative comments on every public venue possible.

The stupid, no wifi and SD screens complaints will be minor compared to this.

Have to? Nope, TiVo is perfectly within their contractual obligations to just let the S3's fall away. But a simple 3 to 5 discount program would go a very long way.

I am not talking about a free transfer, that is just a selfish request, but a discount program would do two things:

1) Show concern for existing customer base
2) Increase the install base on current product.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DanielTB80 said:


> Tivo has never offered Lifetime Support, they have only offered TiVo Lifetime Service, which is two different things. Support is only offered for three years and that is if the unit breaks. The Service Subscription agreement covers the guide data and day to day functionality of the unit and as Tivo notes in the agreement, functionality might change.


You are correct. It was a bad choice of words on my part. Lifetime service and lifetime support are two different things.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

aaronwt said:


> I thought Lifetime units were not counted after 5.5 years?


Now they are, but back when the S3 was being sold and lifetime was only $299/$399 they amortized it over 3 years, or maybe 3.5.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Let me put it this way. If I buy a product and then purchase lifetime support for said product at a premium price and that product is still alive and well, then, yes, Tivo should support it. Lifetime support indicates that as long as the unit is functional, Tivo should support it, period.
> 
> That being said, supporting the transition to a video format other than what the unit was originally designed to handle is an entirely different matter. I honestly don't have any expectations that Tivo will provide a software update for existing S3's to enable mpeg4 playback. Recording mpeg4 broadcasts shouldn't be an issue since the Tivo is just copying the digital stream directly to the hard drive. The incompatibility only comes into play during playback.


If you mean support in providing the guide data, I agree with you, Others are talking about other type of support for the S3, recording mpeg4 and not being able to play it back does most S3 owners no good, as I guess some people may be able to move the recording to a PC and play it back from there.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Now they are, but back when the S3 was being sold and lifetime was only $299/$399 they amortized it over 3 years, or maybe 3.5.


Of course when the S3 first came out they were no longer offering lifetime service which is why a number of us took advantage of the $199 lifetime "transfer" from our earlier models despite the high cost of the S3 OLED since we didn't know if it would ever come back.

They starting offering lifetime again in November of 2007 but only if you were an existing customer and it was $399. It was also only supposed to be limited time through February but that got extended several times. Then in May 2008 they finally resurrected it again for everyone at $399 for the first unit and $299 for the second and all was right in the world again for those of us that prefer lifetime. 

Scott


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The first time I ever paid more the $299 for lifetime service was in 2011 with the TiVo Elite. Of course the three S3 boxes I got in 2006 I had to get the three year service. Then I got lifetime for all of them at an average of $200 each. Of course right after that was when they had the special deal for people where was lifetime even lower on the S3 boxes where people had paid for three years service. So I'm hoping I can get in a a good deal for once and get a lifetime Mini for under $100.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

lessd said:


> The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo owes support for that product !! ??


Not support; an upgrade path that is reasonable. But the word "reasonable" is subjective, and that is why many on this thread are discussing what TiVo _*should*_ offer in the sense of doing the right thing with customers who made HUGE financial investments in TiVo products. The S3 648 was $800, if memory serves, upon release. Now add $499 for 1st TiVo Lifetime or $399 if one already had a TiVo. That's a lot of "LOVE," the word TiVo likes to use in its marketing, for a customer to shower upon TiVo. Now, add even more $$$ for customers who bought multiple S3 units, 648's or subsequent HD's and HDXL's plus Lifetimes for those additional units, and that's even MORE of a lot of "LOVE" to shower upon TiVo with TiVo not giving much "LOVE" back for DVR's that could soon be bricks to the vast majority of of S3 users today because they don't rely on OTA. It's cable or FiOS TV they are recording.

OK, maybe not carry those with the inexpensive HD as much as those with the far more expensive 648's and HDXL's. People are just saying TiVo should do a little more than than what they've done in the past for upgrade path because the S3 will become useless on more and more MSO systems even if the change is handled with channels being H.264 in stages.

Agree, TiVo *should* update the S3 648 because they can and because it was a PREMIUM box with a PREMIUM price that reflects a huge investment in TiVo products by those who bought them. Of course, that aint never gonna happen. Yes, TiVo, we do "share the love" as you have always asked of us, but in the case of H.264, how about you "share the love" now?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Okay, somebody that bought an S3 eight years ago and wasn't stupid so they got lifetime. $1,300 invested, about $13.50 a month. Way less than they paid to their cable monopoly, I'll wager.

And the residual value of that S3 is about $300 on eBay these days.

And for most of us, the move to H.264 is still at least five years away.

And the S3 works perfectly well with OTA signals and there's no sign of that going away any time soon.

But all that is moot; because TiVo is in business to make money, and there is no viable business model for enhancing the viability of the S3. Or to put it another way, nothing you are suggesting for H.264 on S3 would ever make TiVo one red cent. The only positive result might be some good will in a subgroup that's already proven too cheap to pony up for a new Roamio; that would probably not be a good ROI.

TiVo should not update the S3 because doing so would be a bad business decision. (I say that even though I have 4 S3 TiVos running in my home right now.) I'd much rather TiVo make the better choice and spend their resources on developing new products and enhancing the current generation of software than wasting money on antiques.


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## randywalters (Oct 21, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> Okay, somebody that bought an S3 eight years ago and wasn't stupid so they got lifetime. $1,300 invested, about $13.50 a month. Way less than they paid to their cable monopoly, I'll wager. And the residual value of that S3 is about $300 on eBay these days. And for most of us, the move to H.264 is still at least five years away.
> 
> And the S3 works perfectly well with OTA signals and there's no sign of that going away any time soon.
> 
> ...


Personally, i'm not "too cheap to pony up for a new Roamio" and i imagine lots of other S3 owners who spent upwards of $1,000 are also not cheap. I took a huge leap of faith in Tivo when i bought my S3 on Jan 1st 2007 for $749, then a few weeks later took another leap and spent another $299 for their 3-year plan, then after that expired i spent $299 again to put Lifetime on it. And on top of that, the original hard drive failed a month after the warranty expired and Tivo wouldn't give me any consideration for this early failure, so i had to spend another $250 to have Weaknees install a few hard drive (Tivo wanted more $$). That is not the behavior of a cheap person. And my friends and coworkers and customers that have S3s (at my recommendation) are not cheap people either.

Tivo already got $1,350 from me so i don't think it's too much to ask that Tivo update my S3 so that i can continue to use it with my cable company that i continue pay so much for every month.

The only reason i haven't upgraded to a Roamio is because Tivo "cheaped out" and stopped offering a dual Antenna/Cable tuner model so since i need both Antenna and Cable capability in one unit, none of the Roamios will work for me. The unreliability of TWC's Tuning Adapter and Tivo's inability to deal with this TA unreliabilty is also a contributing factor in me not buying a Roamio.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

My understanding is that the TA treatment in the Roamio is much superior than for the previous generational boxes.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

randywalters said:


> The only reason i haven't upgraded to a Roamio is because Tivo "cheaped out" and stopped offering a dual Antenna/Cable tuner model so since i need both Antenna and Cable capability in one unit, none of the Roamios will work for me. The unreliability of TWC's Tuning Adapter and Tivo's inability to deal with this TA unreliabilty is also a contributing factor in me not buying a Roamio.


to be specific - TiVo did not cheap out - the broadcom chip did not have room for 6 digital tuners and OTA tuners at the same time. Since other TiVo models allow for it - it made sense to have a 6 digital tuner for cable model and what I wanted. Now I do have the fun of TWC TA but nothing will be perfect.

anyhow, updating the S3 model is not likely simply becasue early adapters dove on that and have likely mostly moved on save for a few, like yourself, with a specific reason for holding back.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> H.264 encoders are still pretty expensive. If they don't need the bandwidth I could see them waiting until their existing equipment hits EOL before upgrading.
> 
> Plus transitioning to H.264 means having to replace a LOT of the boxes deployed in the field, so that's an added expense as well.


FIOS is completely out of bandwidth. They can't add anything until they move more channels over to MPEG-4. However, they are still ahead of the other providers since they don't have to handle internet, voice, and VOD over QAM...

Relatively few of the boxes these days can't handle MPEG-4.



JWhites said:


> From my experience from customers with Verizon FiOS, TiVo sent S3 owners an email with coupon codes for discounts on Premieres.


That's a good deal, especially considering there's a few sports channels and a bunch of channels no one's ever heard of in MPEG-4 on FIOS. At least for the time being, S3's still work fine with everything except the top package or two on FIOS. Although they could have just put the software out in the first place so that they would work with MPEG-4...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> Relatively few of the boxes these days can't handle MPEG-4.


We just recently did a digital transition here. I went to the local office twice in that time. Both time theres were large lines of people who needed to get a box for a TV they had previously only had connected to analog. I saw multiple times the CSR ask the person if it was an HDTV and if they said no they got one of those old Motorola boxes. Like the same one I had 12 years ago when I had a S2. So there are still a LOT of boxes deployed in the field that can't do H.264, at least in my area. FIOS is a newer platform so it may not have the same issue.

This one...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> We just recently did a digital transition here. I went to the local office twice in that time. Both time theres were large lines of people who needed to get a box for a TV they had previously only had connected to analog. I saw multiple times the CSR ask the person if it was an HDTV and if they said no they got one of those old Motorola boxes. Like the same one I had 12 years ago when I had a S2. So there are still a LOT of boxes deployed in the field that can't do H.264, at least in my area. FIOS is a newer platform so it may not have the same issue.


When Charter transitioned to digital in my area, they didn't deploy any old boxes that I am aware. So I am sure all the new boxes supported h.264. Either way, replacing boxes is much easier for a cable company than the digital conversion since tracking boxes in the field is much easier. And it will be a one-to-one replacement program. I'm sure Charter in my area has quite a few customers on old boxes from many years ago, but replacing them should be a trivial process.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Trivial maybe, but still expensive. And I have a friend who sells encoders for NTT, so I know how much those things go for. An H.264 change over for all 200-300 channels would cost millions.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Trivial maybe, but still expensive. And I have a friend who sells encoders for NTT, so I know how much those things go for. An H.264 change over for all 200-300 channels would cost millions.


It is money well spent if cable companies can reclaim the spectrum for more internet bandwidth. I would imagine that would be the goal as that is where the majority of the major cable companies revenue growth is coming from these days.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Anything is better then switched digital video and those blasted tuning adapters.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

randywalters said:


> Personally, i'm not "too cheap to pony up for a new Roamio" and i imagine lots of other S3 owners who spent upwards of $1,000 are also not cheap. I took a huge leap of faith in Tivo when i bought my S3 on Jan 1st 2007 for $749, then a few weeks later took another leap and spent another $299 for their 3-year plan, then after that expired i spent $299 again to put Lifetime on it.


Randy,

Still using our 2 S3 OLED's that we purchased in December 2006 and January 2007 as they are meeting our needs at the moment. I will say that I'm surprised that you paid $749 in January as we purchased each of ours for $600.

The original $800 cost was really high but getting them for $200 less along with the $199 lifetime transfer from our S1's is what pushed us to go ahead and upgrade at the time even though we didn't even have a HD TV. 

At least for us, we'll have had them 8 years soon and I expect at least a few more years before Comcast gets to our town so I won't be upset if they do not provide an update for the S3's. It would be nice to be given a little discount incentive on a new TiVo as they've done recently for some of the other TiVo owners that lost access to channels due to MPEG4 deployments.

Scott


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> FIOS is completely out of bandwidth. They can't add anything until they move more channels over to MPEG-4. However, they are still ahead of the other providers since they don't have to handle internet, voice, and VOD over QAM...
> 
> Relatively few of the boxes these days can't handle MPEG-4.
> 
> That's a good deal, especially considering there's a few sports channels and a bunch of channels no one's ever heard of in MPEG-4 on FIOS. At least for the time being, S3's still work fine with everything except the top package or two on FIOS. Although they could have just put the software out in the first place so that they would work with MPEG-4...


FIOS just added two more HD channels here OWN-HD and Diy HD. Unfortunately they are MPEG2 instead of H.264. It seems like they put their conversion to H.264 on hold. WHich sucks. I wish they would convert all their channels to H.264, just so I could fit more shows on the 3TB Roamio Pro hard drive.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

:up: I'm all for full H.264 conversion.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm not against it, I just think it'll happen slowly. They'll start with a dozen lesser watched channels, then progress to an entire tier (sports maybe, so they can use a higher bitrate), then eventually they'll do them all. I think complete conversions all at once, like the one happening in GA, are going to be rare.

I wonder if they'll take the opportunity to start using 1080p for HD? Could be a boon for sports channels, like ESPN, who currently use 720p just because the prefer progressive to interlaced.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Yeah it is a long process to change it over because of the sheer logistics involved and need to make it seamless as possible to their customers and because they don't have a lot of competition.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> The current capacity listed is only a ballpark guess at best as each and every recording is transmitted with varying bitrates. Mpeg4 won't cause any more wear and tear on a hard drive than any other type of programming. It's all just a bunch of 1's and 0's.


Yeah, as it is, a Comcast recording might take up 2/3 the space of the "same" recording on FIOS due to differences in compression...



lessd said:


> The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo owes support for that product !! ??


Apple updates many generations back, and the iPhones would still sort of work even without software updates...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Apple updates many generations back, and the iPhones would still sort of work even without software updates...


My iPad has been stuck at iOS 5 for a long time, it was EOLd not long after I bought it.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SullyND said:


> My iPad has been stuck at iOS 5 for a long time, it was EOLd not long after I bought it.


Yeah, that's true, they aren't good with the iPad and iPod touch lines. Some of the OG iPads bought late in their cycle (Feb 2011) could have been obsoleted in about 18 months (Sept 2012). That's pretty bad. OTOH, they are still updating iPhones bought in 2012...


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Apple updates many generations back, and the iPhones would still sort o work even without software updates...





Bigg said:


> Yeah, that's true, they aren't good with the iPad and iPod touch lines. Some of the OG iPads bought late in their cycle (Feb 2011) could have been obsoleted in about 18 months (Sept 2012). That's pretty bad. OTOH, they are still updating iPhones bought in 2012...


Quite a bit of difference between an 8 year old S3 and an iPhone that's only 2 years old. Better comparison would be the original iPhone which is not getting updates and which won't work at least on AT&T when they shutdown their 2G networks in 2016. The 3G only received software updates for 3 years (2007-2010).

Scott


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that's true, they aren't good with the iPad and iPod touch lines. Some of the OG iPads bought late in their cycle (Feb 2011) could have been obsoleted in about 18 months (Sept 2012). That's pretty bad. OTOH, they are still updating iPhones bought in 2012...


Actually besides the original iPad, Apple has been very good at updating the iPad lines.

Every iPad since the iPad 2 (released March 2011) can the newest (iOS 8 ) update. How they'll perform with the update is still up in the air, but they'll get it.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> Quite a bit of difference between an 8 year old S3 and an iPhone that's only 2 years old. Better comparison would be the original iPhone which is not getting updates and which won't work at least on AT&T when they shutdown their 2G networks in 2016. The 3G only received software updates for 3 years (2007-2010).


But then the 3GS received them for a long, long time. It might still have the prize for longest lived iPhone... That's not a fair comparison, as DVR hardware is on a much, much longer upgrade cycle than phones...



morac said:


> Actually besides the original iPad, Apple has been very good at updating the iPad lines.
> 
> Every iPad since the iPad 2 (released March 2011) can the newest (iOS 8 ) update. How they'll perform with the update is still up in the air, but they'll get it.


True. They have screwed people over with iPods too. They refused to upgrade iPods that had better specs than iPhones they were upgrading at the same time...


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## randywalters (Oct 21, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> to be specific - TiVo did not cheap out - the broadcom chip did not have room for 6 digital tuners and OTA tuners at the same time. Since other TiVo models allow for it - it made sense to have a 6 digital tuner for cable model and what I wanted.


I do remember reading about the 6-tuner limitation a while back when first reading up on the Roamio but what i think i understand about my S3 is that the Antenna Tuner is completely separate from the Cable tuner, and i can't help but think going with an either/or tuner was more of a cost-cutting decision.

It would have loved for them to offer a Roamio with a 2-tuner Antenna tuner as well as a 4-tuner Cable tuner, but i would have been happy with a 2+2 Roamio like my S3 - either way i would have definitely upgraded.



> Now I do have the fun of TWC TA but nothing will be perfect


The big problem i have is both of my TAs just randomly stop working (even though the light stays solid green), and when that happens my S3 won't record anything (neither Cable or Antenna) until i reset the TA and get the signal back. Sometimes all i have to do is cycle through some channels on the Tivo and it re-aquires the signal. I have missed several important Racing and Sports recordings while away for the weekend because of this. The other TA is on an older LCD TV w/CableCard in a bedroom and that TA also randomly stops working (yet the other one continues to work). This started literally the very day TWC switched me to SDV and i had to install the two TAs i had standing by. After a few months things stabilized quite a bit, but i've been getting the random failures at least a few times per month ever since, usually while i'm not here. When i'm here i actually set and alarm to remind me to check the Tivo and make sure a recording has started - it's that big of a deal for me.

Man i wish i could get FIOS TV where i live, i'd be rocking a Roamio Plus or Pro right now! My Tivo friends that have FIOS report zero missed recordings over the years, which is what i was experiencing with TWC until SDV hit. And ironically, there are 5 towns within a 15 mile circle that get FIOS TV but it's not worth moving for LOL.

At least the TWC MPEG4 Transition seems to be a long ways off and maybe by then i'll be living in a FIOS area. I'm also considering buying a used Premiere XL with Lifetime to replace my S3 to get the 2x bigger hard drive and to be more future-proofed.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Bigg said:


> FIOS is completely out of bandwidth. They can't add anything until they move more channels over to MPEG-4. However, they are still ahead of the other providers since they don't have to handle internet, voice, and VOD over QAM...
> 
> Relatively few of the boxes these days can't handle MPEG-4...


According to the tech that installed FiOS TV for me in June, almost half of the existing installations he sees include at least one Motorola 6XXX series box which can't do MPEG-4. Verizon had stated that they stopped the MPEG-4 conversion because of a shortage of the 7XXX boxes, and then they rolled out the VMS1100 server. I suspect that they are going to wait and see how many customer upgrade to the VMS line before going back and resuming the MPEG-4 upgrades.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> According to the tech that installed FiOS TV for me in June, almost half of the existing installations he sees include at least one Motorola 6XXX series box which can't do MPEG-4. Verizon had stated that they stopped the MPEG-4 conversion because of a shortage of the 7XXX boxes, and then they rolled out the VMS1100 server. I suspect that they are going to wait and see how many customer upgrade to the VMS line before going back and resuming the MPEG-4 upgrades.


Wow, they suck at inventory management. They are probably stockpiling a gazillion 7XXX boxes that are coming out of VMS installs before doing more MPEG-4 channel conversions...


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Well, that and FiOS TV is now Verizon's red headed child...they are putting all their attention towards the internet/wireless TV offering they are working on. If the VMS server hadn't been years in the making I doubt they would have ever delivered that either.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

jrtroo said:


> My understanding is that the *TA* treatment in the Roamio is much superior than for the previous generational boxes.


Are you referring to the Tuning Adapter as the TA in your post?

I see no difference in the way a Series 4 or a Roamio handles the Tuning Adapter. If anything the 2 Tuner Premiere is more reliable with the TA than either the XL4 or Roamio Pro.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

CoxInPHX said:


> Are you referring to the Tuning Adapter as the TA in your post?
> 
> I see no difference in the way a Series 4 or a Roamio handles the Tuning Adapter. If anything the 2 Tuner Premiere is more reliable with the TA than either the XL4 or Roamio Pro.


At least he said "My understanding is that...". I saw improved Tuning Adapter function about two or three updates back, with all three of my base Roamios, then TiVo rolled another update and the "retune" attempt improvement appeared to vaporize, and has yet to come back. This is personal experience, not something I'm just parroting around, like everybody accepts it.

This Fall Update actually seems to have made my TA tuning worse, hit and miss, losing tune, TiVo appears to make no effort to re-acquire...

I know I'm not the only one who saw an improvement, then an update rolled, and right back to how it was. Others posted the same observations, asking if others saw it, and others did.

I can't help but wonder if TiVo got intimidated by all the people with S3/HD models, getting their torches and pitchforks, demanding that TiVo update their old boxes to do the same thing. Perhaps if TiVo can't prove they can't increase SDV tuning reliability on older units, but are instead only selectively giving it to those with the newest models, there's some FCC issue, or other threat made, that forced them to chose to update all they can, or stop only updating only those who buy the newest platforms...

I know all of what I just said will probably get ripped on, since I have no proof, and can't roll-back the software to get the proof.

He probably saw the positive feedback about the update that made extra effort to tune and retune SDV, but missed the posts about "what happened to the auto-resolve?", or "is it just me, or did the new enhancement for the TA stop working?" posts...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I would really like to see this issue (of whether there is in place a software re-tuning feature in Roamio's to overcome SDV tuning failures) resolved. I asked the question in another thread and received two responses definitely saying "yes":
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10225632#post10225632
Now I see doubt being cast. 
@nooneuknow, can you link to the posts you mentioned asking what happened to the retune feature?

I'm currently running a TiVo HD with lifetime and 99% of my issues are frequent SDV tuning failures and having to power-cycle the TA every 2 to 4 weeks to recover missing channels. This issue could be the deciding one as to whether I upgrade to a Roamio --- I'm not going to pay $500 or so just to keep having the same TA/SDV problems. (Another factor is OTA -- I want to keep using it along with cable and there is no good Roamio solution for that.).


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## christheman (Feb 21, 2013)

nooneuknow said:


> At least he said "My understanding is that...". I saw improved Tuning Adapter function about two or three updates back, with all three of my base Roamios, then TiVo rolled another update and the "retune" attempt improvement appeared to vaporize, and has yet to come back. This is personal experience, not something I'm just parroting around, like everybody accepts it.
> 
> This Fall Update actually seems to have made my TA tuning worse, hit and miss, losing tune, TiVo appears to make no effort to re-acquire...
> 
> ...


Just reading through these posts as a former cable subscriber, although my parents still use it at their place with a Tivo. I personally left cable and went to satellite over this.

TWC's own newest, most recent Cisco cable box (Cisco 4742 Explorer) was doing this consistently, often within a 24 hour window, sometimes more than once within that and sometimes a bit outside of that. Their box would actually pop up a banner over the programming and ask if we were still watching a given channel, and said to "push any button on the remote to keep watching". So for us it was definitely software driven, as opposed to happening randomly. Not a bad box, it was doing exactly what it was programmed to do. Once it tripped without us being there to babysit it, we would then have a screen saver indefinitely afterwards.

Since we had our wiring checked a couple years before that and upgraded with appropriate equipment, there is no room for that argument.

So that is how far the sleaziness that their use of SDV had progressed to, for service which we were paying for. After some rudimentary online investigation, I learned that this exact same SDV thing has been going on with TWC (and other SDV) customers in some form or fashion since 2011, as the bulk of the online posts about this were from that time period.

If they can't or won't get it right with their own top-of-the-line flagship cable box which supports all the 2-way PPV types of service, then what's this say about them.

There is a similar type of issue for single-tuner cable boxes which some people confuse with this, a bit like the Tivos shutting down at night to "call in", but that is besides the point and not related to this SDV issue which can happen multiple times within a 24 hour window.

FWIW, probably not much...
Chris


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> Well, that and FiOS TV is now Verizon's red headed child...they are putting all their attention towards the internet/wireless TV offering they are working on. If the VMS server hadn't been years in the making I doubt they would have ever delivered that either.


They clearly aren't doing a good job with updating FIOS in terms of infrastructure, but they saw VMS as a competitive necessity with CableVision's 15-tuner RS-DVR, and the X1. It's also relatively inexpensive to just upgrade boxes, and they generate huge revenues and huge margins, which Verizon loves. Of course they are continuing to neglect the infrastructure upgrades, like BPON to GPON, gigabit service, as well as actual expansion of FIOS that is all within reasonable reach.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

dlfl said:


> I would really like to see this issue (of whether there is in place a software re-tuning feature in Roamio's to overcome SDV tuning failures) resolved. I asked the question in another thread and received two responses definitely saying "yes":
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10225632#post10225632
> Now I see doubt being cast.
> @nooneuknow, can you link to the posts you mentioned asking what happened to the retune feature?
> ...


If I can find them again, I'll post links. I'm almost certain they are scattered around unrelated topic threads (not in official/unofficial TiVo software update threads), where the subject "just happened to come up", then some realized that another TiVo update had occurred, and we were all "uh, aha...this sucks. I hope they put it back into the next update". I recall speculation of TiVo rolling an update, and forgetting to include the more aggressive retune, first deployed with the prior update.

I wonder if the aggressive retune function had issues with the no-TA MSO-only software tuning resolver function they added. The timing of that being added, and apparent lack of the return of aggressive retune for TAs, seems perfectly related.

TiVoMargret should have some tweets on the subject, as well.

If you are pumping the brakes on a Roamio upgrade due to this, I can understand it, but wouldn't advise holding-out over it. You could upgrade, then join a "petition" to TiVoMargret, for bringing back the SDV multi-attempt tune/retune, which was in the list of fixes, posted by TiVoMargret, for the software that had it.

Find the TiVoMargret update notes thread that had that fix in the list, and start from there. I can never find what I'm looking for on TCF, via search, but others seem to find it easy. (I'm saying that I'm 100% sure the posts are out there, but also 100% sure others can find them easier, and faster, than I can).


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Trivial maybe, but still expensive. And I have a friend who sells encoders for NTT, so I know how much those things go for. An H.264 change over for all 200-300 channels would cost millions.


 Ouch. I can see why a cable provider would want to make a gradual transition when you're talking about those costs.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

DebiLee said:


> I wish they would bring the OLED display back.


Same here, that was bar far my favorite feature.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> Trivial maybe, but still expensive. And I have a friend who sells encoders for NTT, so I know how much those things go for. An H.264 change over for all 200-300 channels would cost millions.





tenthplanet said:


> Ouch. I can see why a cable provider would want to make a gradual transition when you're talking about those costs.


Oh come on, like they don't have the money to afford it? It's complete corporate greed and nothing to do with technical limitations. Furthermore, as demand increases from operators, the costs will go down until it's as cheap as running MPEG 2.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lessd said:


> The Series 3 came out in Sept of 2006, that is 8 years ago, and you think TiVo owes support for that product !! ??


It came out in September of 2006, but it was still the current generation and on sale new in early 2010.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> It came out in September of 2006, but it was still the current generation and on sale new in early 2010.


But the TiVo-HD came out in June of 2007, and I though it replaced the Series 3, I did not know TiVo itself was still selling the original Series 3 new in 2010, but I will take your word for that.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lessd said:


> But the TiVo-HD came out in June of 2007, and I though it replaced the Series 3, I did not know TiVo itself was still selling the original Series 3 new in 2010, but I will take your word for that.


No, I was including the original S3 and the HD in the same "series." I'm assuming that when people say the "Series 3" won't be updated for MPEG-4, they're including the HD in that statement.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> No, I was including the original S3 and the HD in the same "series." I'm assuming that when people say the "Series 3" won't be updated for MPEG-4, they're including the HD in that statement.


OH, so the TiVo-HD will not support MPEG-4 ?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

lessd said:


> OH, so the TiVo-HD will not support MPEG-4 ?


I don't know. That's what I thought when I read this thread.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> OH, so the TiVo-HD will not support MPEG-4 ?


The hardware does, but they never did the software update for it, so it cannot, in it's current form, support MPEG-4, and no one expects that it ever will be updated to support it. The Premiere and newer can support MPEG-4.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

JWhites said:


> Oh come on, like they don't have the money to afford it? It's complete corporate greed and nothing to do with technical limitations. Furthermore, as demand increases from operators, the costs will go down until it's as cheap as running MPEG 2.


I don't disagree that it's greed. All corporations try to make as much money as they possibly can. Most of the ones converting to MPEG-4 have done so because they've done the math and decided it would make them the most money long term. Corporations don't invest in anything unless they think it will make them a return on that investment.


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## JWhites (May 15, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> I don't disagree that it's greed. All corporations try to make as much money as they possibly can. Most of the ones converting to MPEG-4 have done so because they've done the math and decided it would make them the most money long term. Corporations don't invest in anything unless they think it will make them a return on that investment.


Thought is is that if they can get more HD channels to fit with MPEG-4, the service provider can make more money from those new channels wanting to be carried, plus from new subscribers clamoring to see the new HD channels. Or on the other hand you can get a better picture quality by not having to compress the HD channels which would also increase subscribers. Holy grail is both more HD channels _and_ amazing picture quality.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

But there are cheaper options for that. Going all digital is one option. In fact that will increase profits because it will eliminate theft and will force users to have a box in every room which they'll have to rent. SDV is another option. SDV is based on VOD technology so pretty much every digital box in existence can support it. They'll have to buy a few tuning adapters for TiVo/MCE users but those are few and far between. 

Upgrading to H.264 is more of a last ditch effort before upgrading your plant to support higher MHz transmission. The Comcast area in Georgia being upgraded probably has an old 550MHz system and switching to H.264 was likely cheaper then upgrading the plant, and potentially the wiring, to support higher MHz transmission.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

FiOS is all digital and they are already maxed out. And they are able to use all of the 860Mhz spectrum for TV channels. Unlike cable which has to devote some of that for internet and phone service. FiOS has already started screwing with the bitrate of some of the channels as they try to squeeze them in. Unlike in the past when they didn't re-compress them.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

nooneuknow said:


> Find the TiVoMargret update notes thread that had that fix in the list, and start from there. I can never find what I'm looking for on TCF, via search, but others seem to find it easy. (I'm saying that I'm 100% sure the posts are out there, but also 100% sure others can find them easier, and faster, than I can).


If you can remember which people have mentioned this problem in passing, try searching for the username of a person who might have posted messages about it.

Searching by keyword always yields iffy results because you may not hit on the exact combination of keywords to pull up the post you're looking for.

Usually when I can't find something by keyword, then I find it by a username search, I discover that the keyword I thought would pull up the messages aren't there, and the post was worded in some other way.

A search by username sometimes get you in the ballpark; even if you guess wrong, if that person was in the conversation, you may be able to follow a reply chain back, or find the message you wanted on the same page.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> FiOS is all digital and they are already maxed out. And they are able to use all of the 860Mhz spectrum for TV channels. Unlike cable which has to devote some of that for internet and phone service. FiOS has already started screwing with the bitrate of some of the channels as they try to squeeze them in. Unlike in the past when they didn't re-compress them.


Well then I guess it's time for FiOS to implement SDV.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well then I guess it's time for FiOS to implement SDV.


I doubt they will invest in such a technology and instead will continue to move to IPTV. They already do VOD this way and will surely move in this direction with the rest of their video services at some point.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well then I guess it's time for FiOS to implement SDV.


FIOS is unlikely to do SDV because they don't do VOD the same way. The reason it's easy for cable is because it's basically the same technology they use for VOD. FIOS uses pure IP for VOD, so it wouldn't make much sense for them to do SDV. They'd be more likely to switch to an IPTV system.

I'm wondering how they're maxed out though. They have 860MHz to work with. I believe the way it works is they start at 5MHz and then divide them into 6MHz blocks which gives them 142 QAMs with about 38Mbps each. Assuming they put 2 HD (15Mbps) per QAM that would give them enough room for 284 HD stations. And the left over bits on each QAM could be used for at least 2 SD stations giving them another 284 SD stations. How many channels do they have? Are there even 284 different HD channels in existence? Do people actually care about all those stations?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Are there even 284 different HD channels in existence? Do people actually care about all those stations?


Once you throw in all of the premium channels and regional sports channels, I'm sure there probably are. And don't forget about international and foreign language channels for our amigos who habla espanol or something else.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Fios has around 200 total HD channels if you count all sports and foreign packages, east and west coast feeds of the premiums, and everything. Plus easily 300+ SDs considering the same.

I believe they start at 57 MHz and go up to 861, with a small gap between 85 and 111 (interference?) and 5-8 QAMs are reserved for local ad insertions. By my math that's roughly 125-ish QAMs of usable channel space.

They legitimately hit a wall about 2 years ago and that's when 3:1 muxing and h.264 started. They're increasingly muxing existing HD channels 3:1 and adding most new ones in h.264 (as well as converting some low-interest existing channels). SD channels are muxed anywhere from 8:1 to 16:1.

They're technically close to full, but they can keep up the slow-and-steady 2:1-to-3:1 balancing act for a while longer until they're compelled to force a bigger h.264 transition. Verizon is pretty disinterested in channel additions these days, so who knows how long until capacity becomes a problem for them again.

IP was their long-term plan years ago but they changed gears. I remember fearing the impending IP transition when I bought the Premiere at launch, but that never came to fruition. They still could -- everyone will eventually, but there's no rush since they've already invested in h.264.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Verizon slowed down (effectively stopped) their MPEG-4 conversion once the VMS started to get near fruition. Makes sense...why spend money replacing 6XXX boxes only to end up taking the replacement 7XXX boxes back again when users upgrade to VMS and IP clients. A VMS1100 and 3 or 4 IP clients has to be cheaper than 2 or 3 DVRs and couple of standard STBs. Plus, all the 7XXX boxes being replaced can be redeployed to users that don't go for the VMS.

What Verizon should do is kill all the SD duplicates and down convert the HD versions for customers that still have SD TVs. That would free up a couple hundred SD channels. They would still need to replace the SD-only STBs out there, but I would hope that there aren't too many of those, since FiOS TV isn't older than HD.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

There's a surprisingly high number of SD boxes still out there, particularly DCT-700's. As of about 3 years ago, SD boxes were still the majority according to Verizon's "Twitter Joe" as we called him. Verizon was also giving 2500's away for free as a promotion about 2 years ago to deplete stock. 

The free or cheap rental price has made them tough to replace, and the more expensive "per room" pricing scheme of the VMS must hinder those folks from upgrading that much more.

I agree though with removing redundant SDs when it becomes practical or necessary. The 3:1 and h.264 additions buy them time for equipment to die through attrition. At some tipping point, it would probably be practical for Verizon to accept the 7XXX's as a sunk cost and swap out the remaining SD boxes without adding pain to the bill, though I don't know what that magic time/number would be.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fios has around 200 total HD channels if you count all sports and foreign packages, east and west coast feeds of the premiums, and everything. Plus easily 300+ SDs considering the same.
> 
> I believe they start at 57 MHz and go up to 861, with a small gap between 85 and 111 (interference?) and 5-8 QAMs are reserved for local ad insertions. By my math that's roughly 125-ish QAMs of usable channel space.
> 
> ...


FiOS has added three HD chanels in the last couple of weeks. Unfortunately they are all using MPEG2. It's been awhile since they added an H.264 channel. One of the HD channels was the Oprah Winfrey Network. I don't recall what the other two were. I just wish they would get back to converting more of the channels to H.264. If I had my way they would all use H.264.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Removing the SD duplicates may not help much. Most SD channels are stacked into the leftover space on a QAM after it's got 2-3 HD channels already on it. It's typically not enough bandwidth to even support an HD channel so there is no real reason to free it up.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> But there are cheaper options for that. Going all digital is one option. ...
> 
> Upgrading to H.264 is more of a last ditch effort before upgrading your plant to support higher MHz transmission. The Comcast area in Georgia being upgraded probably has an old 550MHz system and switching to H.264 was likely cheaper then upgrading the plant, and potentially the wiring, to support higher MHz transmission.


Comcast is all digital, and is maxed out in some markets with heavy compression, tri-muxing, everything. SDV is a nightmare, and I'm glad that Comcast isn't doing SDV, although I'm afraid that with D3.1, another 80-90 HDs that they don't have yet, and 4k, they are going to be forced to do it eventually, even with H.264...

I'm on a 650mhz system, but even their 860mhz systems don't have a whole lot of empty room left, and they seem to have some 750mhz systems as well. Upgrading everyone to 860mhz with existing MPEG-2 technology would help, but it's not going to get them all the way to 200 HD's and 300mbps internet. They need H.264 to get there.



Dan203 said:


> FIOS is unlikely to do SDV because they don't do VOD the same way....
> 
> I'm wondering how they're maxed out though. They have 860MHz to work with. I believe the way it works is they start at 5MHz and then divide them into 6MHz blocks which gives them 142 QAMs with about 38Mbps each. Assuming they put 2 HD (15Mbps) per QAM that would give them enough room for 284 HD stations.


They are maxed out. The downstream starts at 54mhz I think, it's 135 QAM's. They could do SDV with each GPON port being a "node", but it would be a really ugly kludge for them. They have enough room with H.264, as that will double the number of HD's that they can carry, and that's plenty since they don't have internet, phone, security, VOD or anything else sharing the bandwidth.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> I believe they start at 57 MHz and go up to 861, with a small gap between 85 and 111 (interference?) and 5-8 QAMs are reserved for local ad insertions. By my math that's roughly 125-ish QAMs of usable channel space.


They must not be using the FM channels.



> They legitimately hit a wall about 2 years ago and that's when 3:1 muxing and h.264 started. They're increasingly muxing existing HD channels 3:1 and adding most new ones in h.264 (as well as converting some low-interest existing channels). SD channels are muxed anywhere from 8:1 to 16:1.
> 
> ...
> IP was their long-term plan years ago but they changed gears. I remember fearing the impending IP transition when I bought the Premiere at launch, but that never came to fruition. They still could -- everyone will eventually, but there's no rush since they've already invested in h.264.


I think their plan is H.264, since they have such a massive linear QAM system to work with.



Diana Collins said:


> Verizon slowed down (effectively stopped) their MPEG-4 conversion once the VMS started to get near fruition. Makes sense...why spend money replacing 6XXX boxes only to end up taking the replacement 7XXX boxes back again when users upgrade to VMS and IP clients. A VMS1100 and 3 or 4 IP clients has to be cheaper than 2 or 3 DVRs and couple of standard STBs. Plus, all the 7XXX boxes being replaced can be redeployed to users that don't go for the VMS.


That's the key. They were waiting for the boxes to come back in. I think they are gearing up for a full (with the possible exception of Clear QAM channels) conversion to H.264 once they have those 7XXX boxes to re-deploy.



> What Verizon should do is kill all the SD duplicates and down convert the HD versions for customers that still have SD TVs. That would free up a couple hundred SD channels. They would still need to replace the SD-only STBs out there, but I would hope that there aren't too many of those, since FiOS TV isn't older than HD.


The big bandwidth savings are on the HD side, not the SD side, and that would require that much MORE equipment to be replaced. I think it makes sense to keep SD duplicates around, but if they have an HD version, they should compress the living **** out of them, since people watching SD obviously don't care about PQ anyways.


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