# BT Vision+ as a S1 Replacement - Well it works for me.



## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

Note to the Mod, please move this to a more relevant forum that you think that is best.

After the announcement from TiVo re dropping support for the S1 TiVo, I (as I'm sure others who the new VM TiVo is not an option) started looking at other options for me, one of them was getting BT Vision+.

For a little background, my tv viewing was limited to whatever the s1 had suggested for me, any season passes I had set up and recently using my apple tv for some on demand and catch up tv. Season passes and TiVo suggestions were limited to freeview only as I don't have cable, freesat or sky and not that interested in getting them.

I've been using BT Vision for a little under a week now, so this is my findings, which others whom may be thinking about getting BT Vision, may find helpful.

I'm sure I will not have covered everything here, but as I learn more I'll update this, or perhaps others who use BT vision can add to the thread.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to go for BT Vision+ or not, I'm just wanting to tell you of my experience as an ex S1 user.

*What is it*
BT Vision is a pvr and on demand service run by BT, that records only freeview shows, via your freeview ariel. It also has on demand or catch up tv and films via the BT Vision service, which you can subscribe to or 'pay as you go' for most of it (sky sports I think you have to subscribe to, but can do this for a month at a time).

*BT broadband*
You must have a BT Broadband service to be able to sign up for BT Vision.

Anything you download via BT Vision 'on demand' does not affect any download limits you may have with the Broadband option you have.

You are tied into using BT Broadband for the box to work. I believe there is some "talk" between the box and BT to check if there is a valid "Vision account" from time to time - so no cancelling your BT BroadBand account and being able to use the Box - even just for freeview use or viewing what you have previously recorded.

*Freeview *
For all aired shows that you want to watch/record then you need a freeview connection (not freesat). It does not cope with freeview hd as it has no hd tuners.

*Costs*
The cost of the box is either £60 + £30 activation if you do not want to subscribe to a per month view package. Or £0 + £30 activation if you do subscribe to the £12.50 per month view package. I'm sure others have, or can get better deals than these listed prices if you are about to renew your broadband account or are signing up for a full deal with them (phone, broadband and vision).

I liked the idea of just paying the £90 and no monthly fees (over and above my existing broadband charges) and 'pay as you go' if I went for any of the on demand stuff.

*Tuners*
BT Vision has two tuners for freeview, but they are not HD.

It can record two items at the same time and you can either watch a prerecorded programme or something from the on demand library whilst it records away.

*On Demand*
Films: 
Can be either from Vision film club (which are the older & cheaper films only in SD and you can get through the view package) or Vision Box Office (which are the newer films and can be in SD or HD).

When wanting to watch Film Club films, they stream via your broadband vision+ box and to your tv to watch then. Whereas the box office films are downloaded (overnight?) to your vision+ box for you to watch later. I was originally worried about this, as when I get on demand films via my Apple TV I have 24 hours to watch it from the point of selecting/purchasing, but, with BT Vision, you select the film, it downloads and it is only at the point of pressing play is your account debited.

TV Shows:
Can either be from 'on demand' which is a list of series and one of shows that BT have 'purchased'. I can't say they are the most resent series (that you would get on sky or virgin), but one of the things I like is that it is the whole series, so you can just pick them out one at a time and not wait for next week etc. The alternative option is 'replay' which gives you an equivalent for BBC iplayer (it should be changing to iplayer soon), itv net player, 4 on demand and ESPN replay. If you haven't signed up to a view package then you are charged for any shows from either of these options.

Sport:
There are subscription options for sport packages and these include sky sports 1 & 2 and ESPN.

If you want to, and have a viewing subscription, for a one off charge of £10, you get a viewing card that allows you to watch ESPN. There are then other options on a monthly charge for the Sky sports options.

All on demand content can be played as many times as you like within 24 hours of the initial "play" without additional charges (if not included in your view package).

On Demand Conclusion:
As i watch very little mainstream tv, seeing the latest episode of show x or y, which is currently on sky, vm or even freeview is not a big thing for me, so being able to use BT's On demand as a 'historic' library of past shows and films as I just want to watch something now, fits with my viewing style and complements what I already have with my apple tv.

For all of the 'on demand' options my advice is to go to the BT website and see what films and shows they are currently airing with the 'on demand, and work out if it will be worth subscribing to it or not for your viewing needs.

*Tv guide*
I like the electronic programme guide as you have 14 days (future), which is downloaded via your broadband connection, worth of data and a choice to show it in one of two options.

Grid format
Where the channels are on the left (and you can use the remote to either scroll up and down the list of channels or use the keypad to jump a channel number) and the times are along the top (again, use the remote to either scroll left or right through the times or press the ff / fr buttons to jump 24 hours).

The data in the grid is then the programme name (which can be truncated as the name is longer than the programs time slot).

List format
Where, for one channel at a time, the times are on the left and the programmes name is on the right. Move up and down the times using the remote, or move left or right to select another channel.

In either view, just highlighting an entry gives you summary details about the programme (full title, times, description details and crew/cast info). Selecting the programme gives you options for full details including options to see if the programme is in the epg at other times too.

When the programme is highlighted you can select record to schedule the recording, if you select record for a second time it will either cancel the recording (for a one off show) or creates a series recording (if a series recording is selected, then a third press of the record button will delete the series recordings).

*Remote*
I find the remote easy to use, quite ergonomically friendly. Narrow at the bottom to hold and wide towards the top which helps with resting the remote on my fingers as I select with my thumb the buttons at the top.

Some nice big buttons at the top to jump to main options (on demand, tv guide and bt vision, which is the main menu where your recordings are).

It can be programmed to control your tv for volume, standby and even changing the tv channels (selecting this took my tv out of hdmi mode and back into dtv mode). To switch the tv in/out of standby you have to press two buttons (mode+standby) at first I wasn't that keen on this, but have grown to like it as it means I can switch off the BT vision box, but leave the tv on.

The remote has a "skip back" and "skip forward" a couple of seconds when you are FF / FR and then press play - not as pronounced as the TiVo (and no noise either  ).

*User Interface*
The User Interface is the important bit for me, is it easy to move around, see what can be recorded & what has been recorded and navigate to other areas on the system.

It works on a header, lists and drill down menu structure.

You can scroll left or right through the headers, for the different categories (e.g. on demand, tv, recordings etc etc) and then scroll up and down the list of options for that category.

Selecting the option will either 'run' that option, or take you down to the next level of the menu. The back button takes you to your previous menu level.

To view what you have recorded there is a 'recorded' header category and this then shows, in list format, your tv shows. If you have more than one recording for the same show, the show title acts as a folder (showing the number of how many recordings in the folder), and selecting that folder then drills you down to the list of recordings within it.

*Good and bad points for me*
Good:
- the user interface works for me;

- the normal pause, rewind live tv stuff;

- whilst watching tv you can pause up to 90 minutes;

- whilst watching tv you press record and from the point you started watching the program is recorded for you;

- Easy to set series recording;

- if you've set a series recording your options are for first time and repeat or first run only, end padding times and recording times (any day around x, any day anytime or any day anytime once a day);

- twin tuners;

- one off fee;

- don't have to subscribe to a monthly fee;

- simple search features;

- 14 days epg;

- much smaller footprint (size and power consumption) than the S1 & Freeview box;

- HDMI connection;

- there is some auto padding for recordings (not got to the bottom of this, but looks like a soft pad of 1 min early and 5 mins ending);

- Remote has 30 second skip forward;

Bad:
- no wish list recording;

- no suggestions recordings;

- although you can, with a series recording, set recording times (any day around x, any day anytime or any day anytime once a day), this is a bit limiting for me as I like to record south park, on viva, so have set this as any day anytime (as I'm trying to use it as a limited wish list), but this means I get repeats of the same episode within the same day or days (my S1 didn't record something it had recorded already);

- could do with a splash of colour on some of the screens;

- 160gb hard drive (circa 80 hours of SD recordings) - although i've read somewhere it is easy enough to change the hard drive.

*In summary*
So all things considered, what I said in the title, it works for me and is a TiVo S1 replacement that I'm more than happy with.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Tl;dr


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

How long do you get to watch bought content?



Muttley1900 said:


> - no wish list recording;


As they say on Dragon's den - "I'm out" !


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Tl;dr


Why do you find it necessary to be so rude?


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Muttley1900 said:


> Why do you find it necessary to be so rude?


No rudeness intended


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

mikerr said:


> How long do you get to watch bought content


You have 24 hours from the point you press play.

So, for items that stream (mainly SD stuff) to select it you press play and have 24 hours from then. For non streamed (HD stuff) after the content has downloaded, it stays on your box for you to watch until either you press play (then get billed and have 24 hours to watch) or until it is removed from the on demand library (so you could decided to download x HD films on Wednesday, but not watch them 'till the weekend (when you are billed for them).

J.


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## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Tl;dr


I really do hate that statement. It's just so rude and ignorant.

The guy's taken the time to write a fully-fledged review for you!


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Tl;dr


But you took the time to post that rude comment :down:


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

@Muttley1900 Excellent review - thanks very much for taking the time to write that.



Muttley1900 said:


> You have 24 hours from the point you press play.


Can you watch it more than once, or are you billed each time you watch it?

.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Muttley1900 - glad reports of your demise were exagerated 

Nice review. I'm put off the absence of HD from Freeview even though it won't be here until next year it seems like a limitation.

Do we know what happens to the box if you move from BT Broadband?
Is the EPG & recording dependant on their internet connection or from Freeview OTA?



Jo.Cassady said:


> Tl;dr


WOW I didn't know that one and now I've googled it I agree with the others - very rude & totally unhelpful.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

AMc said:


> WOW I didn't know that one and now I've googled it I agree with the others - very rude & totally unhelpful.


Yeah I had to pm a forum member to explain it to me.

Totally unnecessary and disrespectful to the poster

Alek


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I have looked at the product in the past and BT are always offering it but alas my Freeview reception is so poor 

Good review BTW.

Automan.


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

spitfires said:


> Can you watch it more than once, or are you billed each time you watch it?


Yes, you can watch it as many times as you wish within the 24 hour period, and will be charged just the once.



AMc said:


> Do we know what happens to the box if you move from BT Broadband?
> Is the EPG & recording dependant on their internet connection or from Freeview OTA?


Yea, you are tied into using BT Broadband for the box to work. I believe there is some talk between the box and BT to check if there is a valid Vision account from time to time and yes, the EPG is downloaded via the BB.



spitfires said:


> @Muttley1900 Excellent review - thanks very much for taking the time to write that.





AMc said:


> Nice review.





Automan said:


> Good review BTW.


Thanks for the positive comments, its nice to know that some people can read that much without their lips getting tired


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

I have reading difficulties. I would be delighted to read a synopsis of the OP.


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I have reading difficulties. I would be delighted to read a synopsis of the OP.


So what?

So do I and many other in this world, but we all don't go round condemning someone as they have written something that we think is too long.

Do what I (and others) have to do if it is something I need/want to read. Think! Take your time, and break it down into smaller sections yourself. Pick out the heading that interest you and read those sections first.

But of course you are very probably only saying this now to try and cover your tracks after being caught for the Troll you are

Oh, and finally, don't try and play that sympathy crap with me.


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## ndcdavis (Jul 8, 2007)

Thanks for the detailed review.

I am still thinking about options - and this is one. Unfortunately our road isnt cabled for Virgin.

One question however: How long does it take to stream/download a programme or film?

We're not on a BT inifinity area so the best speed we can get is 20. We have about that at the moment with TalkTalk but even youtube sometimes pauses. My concern is whether you can decide on impulse to watch a movie, or whether everything needs to be planned in advance, in which case this won't work for us!

Thanks.
Nick.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Ditto thanks.

It's something I've considered, but the linking to a BT broadband is the deal killer for me. And despite being inner-city, we only get a miserable 5Mbps here (so end up paying for two phone lines and two broadband subs..) so I don't know how well the VoD would cope anyway.


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

ndcdavis said:


> One question however: How long does it take to stream/download a programme or film?


My Broadband connection gives me (at best) between 8 & 10 and with streamed stuff (SD films and TV on demand stuff) I can say I have had no problem with it pausing etc as it streams - both films and tv shows have played well for me.

I haven't tried downloading a HD film yet - probably as they are a little more expensive than what i can get with my apple tv, but I'll download one and keep you posted.

I've read somewhere that the way BT Vision works is that 1.5 mb of your line speed is taken over by the Vision+ box as it streams so it works okay, whilst other members of the household may suffer with internet connection whilst this happens. I think there is some truth in this as there is a need for the Vision box to be plugged into port 1 of the broadband homehub.

J.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Muttley1900 said:


> So what?
> 
> So do I and many other in this world, but we all dont go round condemning someone as they have written something that we think is too long.
> 
> ...


I have painful memories of my schooldays; the others used to call me 'retard' and make fun of me. I used to cry myself to sleep.

I guess it's hard for some people to empathise, I do not seek your pity, do not worry. (Did you know that the drug ecstasy used to be called 'empathy', and was prescribed by psychologists and
doctors?)

This forum is a great place for people to share their PVR experiences; I am grateful that you have taken the time to share detailed research. I'd be ever so grateful if someone could do a reading, and upload to Audioboo, so that others may benefit from your findings. Of course, I understand if you don't have the time to help disabled people.


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I have painful memories...<snip>


Gosh, I think you are a little late for the Oscars, but, I do have a special prize just for you. You have won the right to be at the top (and only member of) my ignore list. Thank you and good night.

J.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

ndcdavis said:


> the best speed we can get is 20. We have about that at the moment with TalkTalk but even youtube sometimes pauses.


You sure you are on 20 Mb, or are you on that well known marketing scam: "*up to* 20 Mb"?

Ultimate speed is of course dictated by the sending server but with youtube you shouldn't get pauses with anything over 2 Mbit.

.


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## CouchPotato (Jan 25, 2001)

Thank you Muttley1900, this is really useful for me. I have BT Infinity at home, and am now seriously considering BT Vision. £12.50 a month to get a fair-to-middling DVR, plus iPlayer et al directly on the TV, plus a bunch of additional kids channels, some US HBO-type shows and the on-demand videos is sounding quite tempting. Especially when you consider it's only £2.50 more than I was paying on my monthly TiVo subscription...

For me, it's either that or build a PVR based on MCE, MediaPortal or MythTV. My inner geek likes this idea, I'm not sure where I'd find the time what with work and kids, and the BT Vision approach would be pretty pain-free...

cp


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

irrelevant said:


> Ditto thanks.
> 
> It's something I've considered, but the linking to a BT broadband is the deal killer for me. And despite being inner-city, we only get a miserable 5Mbps here (so end up paying for two phone lines and two broadband subs..) so I don't know how well the VoD would cope anyway.


I don't know how relevant it is but the basis of my Media Centre PC arrived yesterday.  iPlayer HD version of Top Gear played fine mid afternoon over my (soon to go) Virgin Media ADSL connection - running a long ethernet cable direct to the router. 
Later that evening I installed g wireless USB stick but the iPlayer stuttered and farted a bit then complained you needed at least 3.5Mbps for it to work. Standard iPlayer continued to work.

Last night a broadband speed checker showed 800Kbps downstream
The best I ever saw (not that I check obsessively) was around 4Mbps

http://www.broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk/broadband_speed_in_my_area.aspx

EDIT
Just checked again and got just shy of 6Mbps - so it looks like a contention thing with the Virgin connection in the evening, not a wireless thing. Time for a new provider...


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Does it do slow motion? No

Does it do fast jump to point in programme? No

Does it shut down every 8 hours (apparently "for my convenience")? Yes

As I've posted elsewhere, I find the BT-V a good second PVR but even Sky+ is a better user interface.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

All this hassle, why not just use BBC iPlayer and 4OD? I don't get it.

I am loath to do business with BT, they seem to glamourise toy-boys










C'mon, she's old enough to be his mother! It's obviously not going to last more than 5-10 years; she'll be going all menopausal and he'll go off to find someone else.

But, I guess it's good: that shows you get via 'on demand' don't affect your monthly limit. It's also quite exciting that you can pause live tv

What's the name of the sound the TiVo makes when you press a button? It's like a bubble?

The BT Vision rear is not unlike the TiVo:










The EPG looks okay:










I'm afraid the remote just isn't peanutty enough for me 










Perhaps someone will learn how to hack a TiVo remote, so you can assign custom IR codes


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## CouchPotato (Jan 25, 2001)

Steve_K said:


> Does it do slow motion? No


Don't think I've ever used slow motion on any TiVo I've owned over the last ten years, so this isn't a problem for me.



> Does it do fast jump to point in programme? No


A minor annoyance for me. Fast jump is useful when searching through a long recording, the vast majority of my recordings are 1 hour or less, and we tend to watch them in one sitting.



> Does it shut down every 8 hours (apparently "for my convenience")? Yes


Now this could be a major annoyance. On checking the BT Vision setup guide, it states that the box still does recordings while in Standby - is this your experience? If so, then I guess the annoyance is more due to 'wake-up' time to become responsive again?



> As I've posted elsewhere, I find the BT-V a good second PVR but even Sky+ is a better user interface.


I'm sure it's going to be nowhere near the TiVo experience, but then nothing else is (although it looks like MythTV and MediaPortal could come close). The additional features (iPlayer, 4OD and the likes, plus additional TV series and on-demand films) may well make up for it.

I'd certainly be happier if I could try it with less than a 12 month commitment, but even the £180 over 12 months is going to be a lot less than building myself a PVR...

cp


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Jo.Cassady said:


> All this hassle, why not just use BBC iPlayer and 4OD? I don't get it.


Most people don't want to use a PC to watch TV.


Jo.Cassady said:


> I am loath to do business with BT, they seem to glamourise toy-boys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's only 3 years between their ages:
Esther Hall is 40 and and Kris Marshall 37



> It's also quite exciting that you can pause live tv


Not exactly innovative these days. Though it was in 2000 (tivo ad)


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Muttley1900 said:


> Gosh, I think you are a little late for the Oscars, but, I do have a special prize just for you. You have won the right to be at the top (and only member of) my ignore list. Thank you and good night


Not wishing to wrongfully accuse anyone, but is s/he a Guardian reader?


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

Steve_K said:


> Does it shut down every 8 hours (apparently "for my convenience")? Yes


Very strange, mine goes into standby mode, but wakes itself up (enough) to record what it needs to record. In fact, i like walking past the room, seeing the purlpe glow of 'standby' and also the red of recording at the same time. So, I can't say this is a problem for me.

J.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I am loath to do business with BT, they seem to glamourise toy-boys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To answer the important point, he's 37, she's 40.

Doh, RTEOT.


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

CouchPotato said:


> I'd certainly be happier if I could try it with less than a 12 month commitment


The only other way is to pay £90 and not have any View subscriptions - just pay as you go re the on demand etc. Maybe, after you know you are happy, change and get a View subscription. Loss to you £60 if you go this route and like the service, but a saving of £120 if you don't.

J.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Most people don't want to use a PC to watch TV.
> There's only 3 years between their ages:
> Esther Hall is 40 and and Kris Marshall 37
> 
> Not exactly innovative these days. Though it was in 2000 (tivo ad)


omg, wow, I stand corrected! Wow!

I thought he was the actor who played the oldest kid in that BBC 1 "Sitcom" My Family. (With Robert Lindsay playing the dentist)

Wow! I thought he was early 20s and she was late 50s.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I have reading difficulties.





Jo.Cassady said:


> All this hassle, why not just use BBC iPlayer and 4OD? I don't get it.
> 
> I am loath to do business with BT, they seem to glamourise toy-boys
> 
> ...


But not writing difficulties, I see.

If you didn't read the first post, why even bother commenting?

And the implication of your "Too long; didn't read" comment is rude.

It's a criticism of a post that you haven't even read.


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I thought he was the actor who played the oldest kid in that BBC 1 "Sitcom" My Family. (With Robert Lindsay playing the dentist)


He is.


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## VirginMediaPhil (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes, children can be older than 18 you know...

(as in "these are my children" not "he is a child")


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> But not writing difficulties, I see.
> 
> If you didn't read the first post, why even bother commenting?
> 
> ...


I made a special effort to read it, out of respect for the OP. In fairness, it was an exceedingly long post, he could have spruced it up with a few pictures.

After reading it, I had a headache.  It was verbose.

The bottom line is that we can delude ourselves all we want, _nothing_ is as good as TiVo , or even comes close. Just shut up, don the ceremonial robes and get back into the cult compound.


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Tl;dr





Jo.Cassady said:


> I made a special effort to read it, out of respect for the OP. In fairness, it was an exceedingly long post, he could have spruced it up with a few pictures.
> 
> After reading it, I had a headache.  It was verbose.
> 
> The bottom line is that we can delude ourselves all we want, _nothing_ is as good as TiVo , or even comes close. Just shut up, don the ceremonial robes and get back into the cult compound.


Actually, on the subject of whether you were rude or not, the bottom line is that you lied.

"Tl;dr" means "Too long; didn't read".

Now you say that you did read it.

So you wrote "Too long; didn't read" out of respect?


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Actually, on the subject of whether you were rude or not, the bottom line is that you lied.
> 
> "Tl;dr" means "Too long; didn't read".
> 
> ...


Hello, I read it _after_ I said 'tl;dr'.

I forced myself to read it as I felt a bit bad that I'd (possibly) offended the OP. I did it as a mark of respect. (I recognise that he's taken the time to write it, but I still stand by the assertion that it's a huge wall-of-text)


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Hello, I read it _after_ I said 'tl;dr'.
> 
> I forced myself to read it as I felt a bit bad that I'd (possibly) offended the OP. I did it as a mark of respect. (I recognise that he's taken the time to write it, but I still stand by the assertion that it's a huge wall-of-text)


I started to read The Winds of War by Herman Wouk once.

It was too tedious and I gave up.

Until now I never told anyone, didn't see the need

Alek


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

ndcdavis said:


> How long does it take to stream/download a programme or film?


Hi, a follow-up for this question.

This morning, I selected an 1 hour 40 min HD film. As it is HD then it gets put in the download section on the box. An hour later, it told me that 25% of it had been downloaded.

Hope that gives you a "ball-park" idea of the timings for HD content.

J.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That's much slower than I'd expect - what ADSL speed do you have?

I can happily watch an HD movie streamed (using Zune on a 360) on my ~6mbps connection, and torrented HD comes down faster then real time.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I still stand by the assertion that it's a huge wall-of-text)


Actually the OP seems to have taken a great deal of trouble to format it clearly; the last thing it is a "wall of text".


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## Muttley1900 (Dec 23, 2008)

TCM2007 said:


> That's much slower than I'd expect - what ADSL speed do you have?


Similar to yourself, and I can stream HD content via my apple tv - so it must be a BT Vision restriction.

Just tried it again, same film, but at 11 this morning and no other personal downloading etc going on with my network. An hour later 33% complete.

Checked just now and 71% complete and it says I can start playing it if i want to.



> Actually the OP seems to have taken a great deal of trouble to format it clearly


I did, thanks for noticing.


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