# EngadgetHD: TiVo Premiere vs Win 7 Media Center



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Ben on EngadgetHD just posted a comparison between Media Center and TiVo. I haven't had a chance to read it all, but I would be curious to see what people here think.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

Seemed like a fair comparison, in the end Ben chose Media Center. 

I have both, and agree with most of what he said. I stick with Tivo for most of our TV watching as I like the simplicity of Tivo and know that Media Center does take more maintenance to operate and maintain.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

it seemed like they were giving their true opinion but there was just tons of weird little details they get confused on that makes me think they do not really proofread for accuracy much anymore.

couple of examples
They say how Media center can set the defaults for setting up recordings and then you hit rec once for a show and twice for a series recording. OK, that is cool
But TiVo you can set the defaults and hit rec and then just accept defaults and then see if there is a conflict or not - not sure where they get "TiVo drives you through all these menus"

then there is filters - they simply say WMC is easy to get to filters and thus they like that guide better - but they do not say you hit enter and have all kinds of filters on TiVo and then they point out you can double up filters on TiVo. Still they like WMC better??

so anyhow a lot of details like that where I just do not know what folks at engadget are really thinking that has me not going to their site that much anymore.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> couple of examples
> They say how Media center can set the defaults for setting up recordings and then you hit rec once for a show and twice for a series recording. OK, that is cool
> But TiVo you can set the defaults and hit rec and then just accept defaults and then see if there is a conflict or not - not sure where they get "TiVo drives you through all these menus"


This was something I noticed immediately when switching to the TiVo HD and Premiere. On the Series 2 you could set defaults for your season passes like you can on tivo.com. They don't seem to offer this option anymore on the HD and Premiere. On the Series 2 I would set all episodes and new as defaults so I didn't have to change each show.

In 7MC it is like the Series 2. I have a default setting and just applies automatically when I set a series recording unlike the Premiere and HD which defaults to 5 episodes, delete as needed, and repeats and new episodes.

Now as far as the guide since I had to wait home to check it, it is a little simpler on Media Center, but also more of a basic filter from what I can see. On MC you just hit left and it brings up the list of filters. As you scroll through the filter the guide changes so you can see what results you get as you pick scroll through the categories. TiVo does offer more options, but you do have to go through a couple pages of options to take advantage of those. Of course this is also with the old Guide UI so who knows what it will look like when it is finished.

Also he does mention with WMC you can't double stack filters like you can with TiVo.



> You can't double stack filters like you can with TiVo though and you also can't select a specific time in the future to go to.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> They say how Media center can set the defaults for setting up recordings and then you hit rec once for a show and twice for a series recording. OK, that is cool
> But TiVo you can set the defaults and hit rec and then just accept defaults and then see if there is a conflict or not - not sure where they get "TiVo drives you through all these menus"


Right, I was complaining about the menu that comes up. On Media Center I hit record and that is it, no menus or anything unless there is a conflict -- which there usually isn't since I have more than 2 tuners.



ZeoTiVo said:


> then there is filters - they simply say WMC is easy to get to filters and thus they like that guide better - but they do not say you hit enter and have all kinds of filters on TiVo and then they point out you can double up filters on TiVo. Still they like WMC better??


Media Center lets you create custom filters, add logos to the guide and shows 2 hours worth of shows instead of 1.5 in grid view. But most of all I like it more because it shows very plainly what is going to record. On TiVo I find myself bouncing between the guide to see what's on and ToDo to see what is going to record. I mostly use the guide to find things to record, but it is useful to use the guide to double check and see if something is going to record since it is one button away.

Sorry I wasn't clear at that.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bdraw said:


> But most of all I like it more because it shows very plainly what is going to record. On TiVo I find myself bouncing between the guide to see what's on and ToDo to see what is going to record.


I do agree that showing what is going to record in the guide is a plus. I myself rarely go into the guide though, I typically found about shows I might be interested in from other sources and come to the TiVo with some idea of the show I am looking for and just use the search tools to get it and record it.

When I hit record from the buffer I tend to just hit select and not think about the menus.
What does media center do if there is a conflict?


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

The guide discovery method is useful when you have a custom filter with your favorite channels because most premiers are on during primetime. So I launch the guide, choose my filter, go to 8pm and find new things to watch. But yeah, I usually find new shows online and then search for them too.

I really wish there was a social aspect to either system that would suggest shows based on what my friends were watching.

Media Center supports up to 16 tuners (standard version, AEP is 32) so if there is a conflict, a list of the shows you want to record is presented and you place red dots on the ones you want to record (obviously the number of red dots corresponds to the number of tuners you have).










In this screen shot I only have one tuner that can record those channels so there is only one red dot (like most MC fans I'm currently waiting for the InifniTV 4 to be released).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I do agree that showing what is going to record in the guide is a plus. I myself rarely go into the guide though, I typically found about shows I might be interested in from other sources and come to the TiVo with some idea of the show I am looking for and just use the search tools to get it and record it.
> 
> When I hit record from the buffer I tend to just hit select and not think about the menus.
> What does media center do if there is a conflict?


I almost think this has to do with what your first DVR was or even possibly how you watched television prior to DVRs. I am the same way though and never use the guide either on 7MC or TiVo. I mainly only search by title or occasionally just search by channel and browse the next 12 days of Discovery for example.

Once I discovered thefutoncritic's calender listing of premieres I use that and just search by title. Prior to that though I would browse by channel and pick shows to record as I looked through the listings.

Hopefully Ben can put up some pictures of the advanced option also along with a conflict in the to do list, because this is something TiVo should definitely implement. I also wish they would implement the extra options 7MC has for setting series recordings. It is almost a mix of wishlist and season pass.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Appreciate the comparisons Ben. One question which I've never got a concrete answer to.
Does Win 7 MCE have anything close to Advanced Wishlists? For example for TiVo I can setup a wishlist as follows:

title keyword: NBA Basketball
keyword: Lakers
Category: HD
Wishlist Name: Lakers

The above filters to only titles containing "NBA Basketball" and then further filters to Lakers games only and further restricts to HD recordings only. Hence this records all new Lakers games on any HD channel whenever they happen. Furthermore all recordings get organized under a folder called Lakers. With TiVo 28 day rule any subsequent non-live airings of same game don't record if already recorded, or if there were conflicts for the live broadcast will record. i.e. Complete hands off recording so I never have to worry about finding and scheduling individual games.

Is anything close to that possible with MCE?
Thanks.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I read the article on Engadget but I didn't wade through the advantages of each system. I am surprised that they indicated the amount of storage for each system was a dead even tie, which couldn't be further from the truth. A Tivo can only use up to two hard drives. Win 7 Media Center only allows you to point to a single drive, but if you have a server with shares you can span a shared folder across multiple drives for almost unlimited capacity. I have an unRAID server with 18TB of storage and I can set up a shared folder to use the entire capacity if I choose.

The Engadget article also ignored the one deciding factor between a Media Center PC and a Tivo - cost of ownership. The cost of a Win 7 Media Center PC varies widely depending on how you want to configure it and it can be somewhat costly if you want all the latest bells and whistles. The thing is, it really doesn't require a lot of horsepower or gobs of memory to work well so you can get away with a budget setup and not break the bank. A Ceton quad cablecard tuner will add another $400 to the mix but it gives you four tuners that are the equivalent of two new Tivo HDs or Premieres (I left out the S3 because they would require up to four cablecards).

Initial hardware costs aside, a Win 7 MC PC will only cost you about $4-8 per month, depending on what your provider charges for a single cablecard. Two Tivos will require two cablecards and the Tivo service. Two lifetime subs would run you about $600 ($399 for the first and $199 for the 2nd, IIRC). Lifetime sub prices can also vary depending on what deal is being offered at the time. Your monthly cablecard fees are double with the Tivos vs. the HTPC.

The other major advantage of a HTPC vs. a Tivo is that it can also play Blu-Rays and DVDs.


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## FrodoB (Jan 3, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Initial hardware costs aside, a Win 7 MC PC will only cost you about $4-8 per month, depending on what your provider charges for a single cablecard. Two Tivos will require two cablecards and the Tivo service. Two lifetime subs would run you about $600 ($399 for the first and $199 for the 2nd, IIRC). Lifetime sub prices can also vary depending on what deal is being offered at the time. Your monthly cablecard fees are double with the Tivos vs. the HTPC.


Odds are pretty good, though, that electricity costs even the deal out pretty well. Even the most efficient HTPCs are substantially more power hungry than a Premiere. But your point is otherwise valid.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> Win 7 Media Center only allows you to point to a single drive, but if you have a server with shares you can span a shared folder across multiple drives for almost unlimited capacity. I have an unRAID server with 18TB of storage and I can set up a shared folder to use the entire capacity if I choose.


This discussion has finally motivated me to play with Win 7 Media Center (ironically using the tuner from the cheap Nero Liquid TV deal posted here late last year).

Do you have to map a share to a local drive to get Media Center to use it? I just set this up yesterday, and I don't see an obvious way to give it a share path to use.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> A Ceton quad cablecard tuner will add another $400 to the mix but it gives you four tuners that are the equivalent of two new Tivo HDs or Premieres (I left out the S3 because they would require up to four cablecards).
> 
> Initial hardware costs aside, a Win 7 MC PC will only cost you about $4-8 per month, depending on what your provider charges for a single cablecard. Two Tivos will require two cablecards and the Tivo service. Two lifetime subs would run you about $600 ($399 for the first and $199 for the 2nd, IIRC). Lifetime sub prices can also vary depending on what deal is being offered at the time. Your monthly cablecard fees are double with the Tivos vs. the HTPC.


I would say also to make it equal by comparing the two you need to add a 360. Since yes the InfiniTV 4 is equal to two TiVos due to tuners, with the TiVos you can use in one room or two. Of course the 360 isn't expensive but it still is an added cost. Then to add Netflix you would need the gold service since you have access to Netflix on both TiVos which on FiOS is about equal to the cost of the second cable card each year so that benefit is wiped out. This is assuming you make things 100% equal for the comparison.

Figure two lifetime Premieres will run you around $1200 and two lifetime XLs will run you $1600. You might be able to get them for a little less. This of course leaves you $800 for a PC with 640gb for recording or $1200 with 2TB for recording. I don't really see any deals on the Arcades anymore so you are looking at another $150 for the Arcade leaving $650 and $1050. Of course Win 7 will run you $100 for Home Premium OEM, bringing you down to $550 and $950.

Obviously with the XL you have a lot more room to play, but with the basic Premiere it does get a little tight to get what you need. Of course if you have a spare PC lying around that will beat the requirements it is much easier.

I will have to look into the shared folder across multiple drives, because I could definitely see a use for it in the future. I know I can't pick a networked drive to record to in 7MC, but I haven't looked at other options.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bdraw said:


>


even with just two tuners - being able to pick the showsfrom the list of conflicts is a great thing.

What happens if they are series though and the conflict is not all the time but say a 2 hour special. I have thought that being able to order the conflict resolution somehow (give a series a 1, next a 2 and next a 3) would be good but then they have to somehow change order in the season pass manager as well


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

FrodoB said:


> Odds are pretty good, though, that electricity costs even the deal out pretty well. Even the most efficient HTPCs are substantially more power hungry than a Premiere. But your point is otherwise valid.


I would agree with this, but also keep in mind the HTPC can be setup to enter sleep mode when not in use or recording. My current HTPC since I only record primetime on it since no cable card tuners, is only on at most from 7:50-11:15. It will otherwise occasionally wake for updates to guide data and backup, but goes back to sleep once done.



sbourgeo said:


> This discussion has finally motivated me to play with Win 7 Media Center (ironically using the tuner from the cheap Nero Liquid TV deal posted here late last year).


If you need a remote, there is actually a guide on the slickdeals forums in the thread discussing that deal that tells you how to install the IR receiver and remap that TiVo remote. I don't have the link handy but it works great.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I am surprised that they indicated the amount of storage for each system was a dead even tie, which couldn't be further from the truth. A Tivo can only use up to two hard drives. Win 7 Media Center only allows you to point to a single drive, but if you have a server with shares you can span a shared folder across multiple drives for almost unlimited capacity. I have an unRAID server with 18TB of storage and I can set up a shared folder to use the entire capacity if I choose.
> 
> The Engadget article also ignored the one deciding factor between a Media Center PC and a Tivo - cost of ownership. The cost of a Win 7 Media Center PC varies widely


actually the article covered both points and it was the fact that getting into larger storage options ups the cost that made storage a tie, with the assumption you were spending equivalent money.

I agreed with Ben's overall conclusion that while the HTPC gives some significant features not on the TiVo side it still is really for the person/family willing to dive into tech to get the most out of it. TiVo has the KISS factor for those just wanting to use a DVR and maybe some internet video.

PS - in my family of 6 a TiVo somewhere in the house is recording something pretty much all day. There might be a period from 1am to 6am a recording is not happening.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

We've hashed this out before - an HTPC with an Xbox360 and the Ceton tuner can be built cheaper than two Tivos with lifetime (and way cheaper compared to two XLs for the equivalent amount of storage - a 2TB drive is less than $100 now). Plus you only have to rent one Cablecard.

But as zeo says, using the Tivos is easier on the family than the HTPC, although the PC will give you access to much more content and offer great features like comskip that Tivo will never get.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> even with just two tuners - being able to pick the showsfrom the list of conflicts is a great thing.
> 
> What happens if they are series though and the conflict is not all the time but say a 2 hour special. I have thought that being able to order the conflict resolution somehow (give a series a 1, next a 2 and next a 3) would be good but then they have to somehow change order in the season pass manager as well


Under that screen there is the advanced option. This advanced option is where you can change the order without going into season pass manager.










Don't judge me off my recordings lol. I had to find some in a time slot to create conflicts since nothing is really on right now.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> But as zeo says, using the Tivos is easier on the family than the HTPC, although the PC will give you access to much more content and offer great features like comskip that Tivo will never get.


I don't know if I would agree past the initial setup. If you setup the HTPC and put it out of the way where they can't touch it and they only use Media Center on the 360 then it is very much like using a TiVo especially since you can set the 360 to boot straight into Media Center mode.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know if I would agree past the initial setup. If you setup the HTPC and put it out of the way where they can't touch it and they only use Media Center on the 360 then it is very much like using a TiVo especially since you can set the 360 to boot straight into Media Center mode.


for simply watching a show that has been recorded already or Netflix or downloads - yes likely the same.

I have Luddites in my family however that find even the simplified menus of a TiVo beyond what they want to know. For a mass market the KISS principle can not be underestimated



innocentfreak said:


> Don't judge me off my recordings lol. I had to find some in a time slot to create conflicts since nothing is really on right now.


Lieing, Girls in bikinis and really odd talents -- I judge America, not you


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Appreciate the comparisons Ben. One question which I've never got a concrete answer to.
> Does Win 7 MCE have anything close to Advanced Wishlists? For example for TiVo I can setup a wishlist as follows:
> 
> title keyword: NBA Basketball
> ...


I recently converted my Myth box to 7MC after purchasing one of the BB Tivos, mostly so I can use existing Xbox360s as extenders. 7MC does offer a wishlist series recording but it's not as advanced as Tivo's - you can specify a keyword or phrase (actor, director, title, or generic) with an optional category (movies, children's shows, etc). However, there's no boolean options so what you enter is what you get. You can restrict them to a specific channel though, which Tivo doesn't have.

There may be some 7MC addin that you can get that adds more search capability, but I haven't spent enough time with it yet to find one - searching thegreenbutton.com's forums for wishlist doesn't find anything.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> for simply watching a show that has been recorded already or Netflix or downloads - yes likely the same.
> 
> I have Luddites in my family however that find even the simplified menus of a TiVo beyond what they want to know. For a mass market the KISS principle can not be underestimated
> 
> Lieing, Girls in bikinis and really odd talents -- I judge America, not you


I would say other than a few of the points Ben pointed out in his comparison like jumping in the guide and skip to tick, many of the features work similarly enough to the TiVo that it was a very simple transition. Unlike with the old R15 on Directv which I never felt comfortable with, the UI on 7MC just worked the way I expected to without having to try to find where something may be.

It is something I could sit my parents down to and they would get the hang of it pretty quickly which says a lot since I am still trying to teach them to use the internet over Aol lol.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

moyekj said:


> Appreciate the comparisons Ben. One question which I've never got a concrete answer to.
> Does Win 7 MCE have anything close to Advanced Wishlists? For example for TiVo I can setup a wishlist as follows:
> 
> title keyword: NBA Basketball
> ...


There is similar.


















Frequency Options: Record Every Time, Record Once
Channels: Any, HD Only, HD Preferred, SD Only, SD Preferred, or specific channel
Keep: Until Space Needed, 1 week, Until I watch, Until I delete
Stop: 1-4 minutes after when possible, 5 minutes after, 5 minutes after when possible, 10 minutes after, 10 minutes after when possible, and repeats at 15, 30, 1 hour, 2 hours, and 3 hours.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Compared to Tivo's advanced boolean options, it's not.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Compared to Tivo's advanced boolean options, it's not.


I think I used a wishlist once on a series 2 so I wouldn't know. I have never found a need for them.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> There is similar.
> Frequency Options: Record Every Time, Record Once
> Channels: Any, HD Only, HD Preferred, SD Only, SD Preferred, or specific channel
> Keep: Until Space Needed, 1 week, Until I watch, Until I delete
> Stop: 1-4 minutes after when possible, 5 minutes after, 5 minutes after when possible, 10 minutes after, 10 minutes after when possible, and repeats at 15, 30, 1 hour, 2 hours, and 3 hours.


 OK thanks for the info. That's not bad, but because of lack of additional "NBA Basketball" filter in title that would also pick up replays of games from past years as well as shows with Lakers that are not games, hence the need for that portion of the setup.
The boolean operators in TiVo are even further advanced than example I gave, but I haven't really had the need to go that far yet.

Ceton & Win 7 MCE are interesting, but there's not enough incentive to move away from my 2 Lifetime S3s that are already paid for and working well. If I were starting from nothing then Ceton + Win 7 MCE would be more appealing. I also agree with Ben's assessment that overall TiVo units are less hands off in terms of maintenance.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

moyekj said:


> OK thanks for the info. That's not bad, but because of lack of additional "NBA Basketball" filter in title that would also pick up replays of games from past years as well as shows with Lakers that are not games, hence the need for that portion of the setup.
> The boolean operators in TiVo are even further advanced than example I gave, but I haven't really had the need to go that far yet.
> 
> Ceton & Win 7 MCE are interesting, but there's not enough incentive to move away from my 2 Lifetime S3s that are already paid for and working well. If I were starting from nothing then Ceton + Win 7 MCE would be more appealing. I also agree with Ben's assessment that overall TiVo units are less hands off in terms of maintenance.


Well it does filter basketball also as shown in the screen shot since you can pick sports and then all or then basketball. Also you do have the option of new or new and rerun so it should be able to only pick up new games.

If there is something on local channels only that you or anyone else wants me to test I can set up a keyword search to see what it finds.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

While the X-Box 360 is currently the only media extender still being marketed, there are lots of Linksys DMA2100/2200 extenders to be had on ebay for well under $100. The X-Box 360 has a reputation for being power hungry, hot, and noisy whereas the Linksys uses little power and is dead quiet. I just picked up two of them on ebay for about $75 each with shipping.

OTOH, the new slim X-Box 360 Arcade with 4GB can be purchased for $199. The lack of a hard drive will let it operate silently and generate much less heat. It also uses less power than the predecessor model. I see this as the extender of choice for most people.



FrodoB said:


> Odds are pretty good, though, that electricity costs even the deal out pretty well. Even the most efficient HTPCs are substantially more power hungry than a Premiere. But your point is otherwise valid.


Probably true, but there are more energy efficient choices than ever before. I have a Dell Zino HD that my son uses for Blu-Ray playback from my server that uses one of the new low-power AMD CPUs, which is similar to Intel's Ion processor. It's a pretty nifty little PC that can do pretty much anything HTPC related you want it to. Just make sure you get the upgraded 6850e CPU and 4330 GPU if you get one. Too many people gripe about the performance because they decided to save a few bucks and go with a lower-end graphics card and CPU.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Well it does filter basketball also as shown in the screen shot since you can pick sports and then all or then basketball. Also you do have the option of new or new and rerun so it should be able to only pick up new games.
> 
> If there is something on local channels only that you or anyone else wants me to test I can set up a keyword search to see what it finds.


 Good point, I glossed over that part. It probably would be very close to this particular example. Thanks again.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

innocentfreak said:


> If you need a remote, there is actually a guide on the slickdeals forums in the thread discussing that deal that tells you how to install the IR receiver and remap that TiVo remote. I don't have the link handy but it works great.


Thanks, did not know that. I'll have to track that thread down and give it a shot. :up:


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## wesmills (Mar 8, 2006)

> Media Center on the other hand has a wide range of remotes with some better than others, but it does have one button that TiVo doesn't that we really, really like: Recorded TV. Why TiVo doesn't give you a single intuitive button to take you to your recorded shows is beyond us, and while TiVo lovers are screaming about the shortcuts for this same functionality, that still isn't as good as a dedicated button.


Ah HAH! The one thing TiVo or DirecTV got right on the DirecTiVos. We've been using TiVo HD units for awhile now, but everyone in my household kept their DirecTiVo remotes (I still have the original silver one from my first DirecTiVo) simply because those remotes have a button for "List."


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Yeah, someone has to explain to me why they removed the "List" button. Thankfully, if you have a peanut with List, it'll work on any TiVo...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

IT seems me Tivo has one advantage not mentioned. You can actually buy one.

From what I read CableCard Tuners are still hard to come by if at all.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> IT seems me Tivo has one advantage not mentioned. You can actually buy one.
> 
> From what I read CableCard Tuners are still hard to come by if at all.


The cable card tuners are shipping this week which is why Ben finally posted his review. Supply is still tight though so if you didn't pre-order you might be in for a bit of a wait.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> IT seems me Tivo has one advantage not mentioned. You can actually buy one.
> 
> From what I read CableCard Tuners are still hard to come by if at all.


The ATi cablecard tuner has been available for quite some time. If you feel the need you can buy a single ATi tuner for an outrageous price on ebay. The Ceton tuners have begun shipping to all those that have pre-ordered them so hopefully they'll have all of the back orders filled in the next month or so. Once that happens they should be available to the general public. Don't expect to see the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime 3-tuner model until early next year. It still has not gone through the extensive beta testing process yet which could take four months or more.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

As I said cablecard tuners are hard to come by. 

I am interested though. I just built a Win7 box and bought a 360 without plans to turn them into a dynamic DVR duo. But those plans may change...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> As I said cablecard tuners are hard to come by.
> 
> I am interested though. I just built a Win7 box and bought a 360 without plans to turn them into a dynamic DVR duo. But those plans may change...


You sound like where I was when I picked up a 360. The next thing I knew I was buying a pair of Avermedia Duets just to put them in the Win 7 box to test and play with Media Center. Then I found myself looking into cable card tuners and reading about Ceton.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's pretty much how most people get into HTPCs. They've all heard about them but can't think of any reason to actually own one. It's not until you start using one that you begin to see the possibilities. I started using mine strictly for OTA recording when DirecTV started dropping the mpeg2 channels and thereby rendering my HDTivos useless except for OTA duties. I couldn't see paying for DVR fees when I could do the same thing with an HTPC for free.

Then I started getting into DVD and Blu-Ray playback. Before long I was building a server to store all of my DVD and Blu-Ray rips. I branched out even further and added a couple more HTPCs into the mix. When I heard about the Ceton tuner I finally bit the bullet and upgraded to Win 7. I started playing around with Media Center and now I can access all of my DVDs and Blu-Rays from my server, recorded TV and a plethora of video file formats on the HTPC, and music from my main PC.

I just added a couple of Linksys media extenders and I can tune live TV via the tuners connected to my HTPC on a remote TV connected to the extender. I can also access anything on the remote TV that I can on my HTPC via media center, except DVDs and Blu-Rays (media center extenders don't provide the necessary codecs for playing either disc format, although the Linksys DMA2200 has a built-in DVD player). When I get my Ceton tuner I'll be able to share both my ATSC tuners and cablecard tuners with any TV that has a media extender connected to it. I expect I'll not only be retiring my Tivos but also returning my set top boxes and extra cablecards as well. I figure the new hardware investment will pay for itself in short order.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I'll be curious to see how the Cable companies deal with CableCard equipped PCs (And HDHomeRuns) being more common.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

If they say they don't support it, I would just say I meant to say TiVo lol.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

An HTPC meets Tom Rogers vision more closely than Tivo, since it can bring more internet and DVD/Bluray content to the TV with one box. Still no satellite TV support though.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

sbourgeo said:


> innocentfreak said:
> 
> 
> > If you need a remote, there is actually a guide on the slickdeals forums in the thread discussing that deal that tells you how to install the IR receiver and remap that TiVo remote. I don't have the link handy but it works great.
> ...


Found it in case anyone is interested: link. Stuff like volume, mute, channel changes, guide, basic DVR functions all work with Win7 Media Center of the box.

It also looks like EventGhost allows you to map the TiVo-specific buttons, but I haven't played with that yet.

Thanks again innocentfreak!


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

FrodoB said:


> Odds are pretty good, though, that electricity costs even the deal out pretty well. Even the most efficient HTPCs are substantially more power hungry than a Premiere. But your point is otherwise valid.


Actually advantage HTPC there because you can put it to sleep where it will draw 2-5W at sleep, wake up to record then go back to sleep.

Assuming the premiere draws 25w and is on all the time, it will draw 18kWh every 30 days.

With a HTPC that is on for 4 hours per day, it will draw 12kWh every 30 days while running, plus about 3.5kWh while sleeping.

At 11c/kWh (our electric cost) it costs $1.98 to run the TiVo and $1.70 to run the htpc.

So not only does the HTPC draw less power over the typical month, the difference in cost to run is negligible.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> An HTPC ...Still no satellite TV support though.


DirecTV had a tuner in development but abandoned it.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> While the X-Box 360 is currently the only media extender still being marketed, there are lots of Linksys DMA2100/2200 extenders to be had on ebay for well under $100. The X-Box 360 has a reputation for being power hungry, hot, and noisy whereas the Linksys uses little power and is dead quiet. I just picked up two of them on ebay for about $75 each with shipping.


I tried the DMA2100 but it had low WAF due to the slow menus and delayed action on skip/rev. I went back to the 360.

I might get rid of the older 360 I have and get one of the newer slim ones.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

trip1eX said:


> IT seems me Tivo has one advantage not mentioned. You can actually buy one.
> 
> From what I read CableCard Tuners are still hard to come by if at all.


I bought two ATI digital cable tuners from dell a few months back for $250 each. These are for the two S cards I purchased for my (now sold) Series 3. Since I can't get any money back for the cards I purchased in 2007, and they don't incur any rental or AO fees, might as well use them.

ATI has since discontinued the tuners but you can find them on ebay. As the Ceton tuner rolls out expect the price of the ATI tuners to drop. I might be looking for a couple to keep as spares. I have the internal version which sits in a PCIE slot but uses USB.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Raj said:


> With a HTPC that is on for 4 hours per day, it will draw 12kWh every 30 days while running, plus about 3.5kWh while sleeping.


if I only recorded and watched TV in a 4 hour window each day - I would not bother with an HTPC and likely not even TiVo - just go with cable co DVR.

people are wanting 4 cable card tuners in their HTPC or more. Pretty unlikely 4 hour window is going to satisfy them


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if I only recorded and watched TV in a 4 hour window each day - I would not bother with an HTPC and likely not even TiVo - just go with cable co DVR.
> 
> people are wanting 4 cable card tuners in their HTPC or more. Pretty unlikely 4 hour window is going to satisfy them


No question about that! Why would you need four tuners if you only ran 4 hours a day?

I guess I could see that for some OTA person who only records network primetime shows. For me, my Tivo's are recording 80-90% of the time. Especially during the night to catch lower priority cable shows.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if I only recorded and watched TV in a 4 hour window each day - I would not bother with an HTPC and likely not even TiVo - just go with cable co DVR.
> 
> people are wanting 4 cable card tuners in their HTPC or more. Pretty unlikely 4 hour window is going to satisfy them


I chose a 4 hour window because it covers primetime. Even if it were a 6 hour window it wouldn't be that much more.

Plus the TiVo only draws 25w when idle, when recording I'm sure it draws more.

The point was that with S3 sleep a HTPC doesn't draw significantly more than a TiVo and it may even draw less. And even if it did draw more it is a matter of cents or at most a couple dollars given the extreme case.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Raj said:


> ...Plus the TiVo only draws 25w when idle, when recording I'm sure it draws more...


That I'm not too sure about. I haven't looked at the nameplate rating on the Premiere, but typically the watts reported are max/peak watt draws.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Raj said:


> I chose a 4 hour window because it covers primetime. Even if it were a 6 hour window it wouldn't be that much more.
> 
> Plus the TiVo only draws 25w when idle, when recording I'm sure it draws more.
> 
> The point was that with S3 sleep a HTPC doesn't draw significantly more than a TiVo and it may even draw less. And even if it did draw more it is a matter of cents or at most a couple dollars given the extreme case.


oh I understood the point just fine and for someone who does not record much and uses HTPC very good advice to make sure sleep is on.

in our house though we have maybe a 5 hour window overnight when TiVo is not recording something and maybe a 2 hour afternoon window. 6 people and many varied shows including daytime ones is just how our schedule works


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I don't record much, but now I'm thinking I will leverage the Win7 box I just built and have it do double-duty as a DVR along with being the extra family computer.

Makes it easier to justify it the wife.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> The Engadget article also ignored the one deciding factor between a Media Center PC and a Tivo - cost of ownership.


As others have said, the Ceton isn't _widely_ available yet (I just learned in this thread that it's shipping to preorders).

But anyway, how much is the minimum hardware that will take a Ceton card?
Does that include Media Center? If not, how much of an addon is that?

..and how long will MS keep providing free updates or at least keep supporting the guide data (that I understand is included) for that version of the OS?

In other words, you can still get guide data for 10+ year old series 1s.. Could I get one of these and likely be using it 10 years from now?

Though I'm not likely to get one anytime soon, and the idea of using Windows anything is anathema to me, the idea of ONE BOX that has 4 tuners is compelling...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> As others have said, the Ceton isn't _widely_ available yet (I just learned in this thread that it's shipping to preorders).
> 
> But anyway, how much is the minimum hardware that will take a Ceton card?
> Does that include Media Center? If not, how much of an addon is that?
> ...


Taken from Ceton FAQ


> Q: What are the recommended system requirements?
> 
> A: The recommended minimum system requirements for the Ceton InfiniTV 4 are:
> 
> ...


They have a somewhat difficult time picking the minimum since it depends on how you plan to use it. If you only record and playback on the same PC, you might be ok with less than someone who is recording 4 things while also streaming 4 shows to other rooms.

Media Center comes with almost every version of Win 7.

The guide data is so far the same so if you were using Win XP Media Center Edition you would still be getting the same guide data as Vista users as Win 7 users. You just don't have access to cable card tuners.

10 years from now there is no way to know.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mattack said:


> Though I'm not likely to get one anytime soon, and the idea of using Windows anything is anathema to me, the idea of ONE BOX that has 4 tuners is compelling...


I totally understand your feelings about Windows. However, Windows 7 Media Center is the first Microsoft app or OS I have ever actually raved about. FWIW, my current HTPC has four ATSC tuners. I recently reduced the tuner count from six to four because Win 7 Media Center does not support more than four tuners of each type, although I believe there are some registry hacks that would allow you to increase that number. With the Ceton cablecard tuners the number will increase to four ATSC and four QAM tuners, which should be more than sufficient to record whatever I want whenever I want with zero conflicts.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mattack said:


> But anyway, how much is the minimum hardware that will take a Ceton card?
> Does that include Media Center? If not, how much of an addon is that?


$3-400 - Office Depot, Staples, Dell etc. sell them for that every week. Yes, that includes Media Center (they all have Home Premium installed). Or build your own and it may come in cheaper if you can get deals on the drive, case, mobo combos, etc. Might not be cheaper if you have to buy Win7 though, which is why I suggested the store-bought route.

Yes, they'll work fine as an HTPC, regardless of what some folks here think. Pretty much any desktop PC sold today will work as an HTPC. So for $800 + the cost of an Xbox360 ($200), you can have the equivalent of two lifetime Tivos and only pay for one Cablecard. Even cheaper if you pick up a Linksys DMA2100 extender on fleabay, I've seen them go for as low as $50. Same with the recent Xbox360 Arcade closeouts, they've been going for less than $150.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Seems like media center is the way to go for a large household where you are recording lots of different programs that will be shared and watched in different rooms. Tom Rogers missed the boat on this market.

You could spend alot more money on a Tivo Premiere in every room and then have your cable company turn on the CCI flag for most of the cable channels. Nothing you can do and Tivo isn't going to refund your money.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> That I'm not too sure about. I haven't looked at the nameplate rating on the Premiere, but typically the watts reported are max/peak watt draws.


OK you may be correct about that, but TiVo itself says 23w when idle and 26w when recording.

But since we're comparing apples to apples, multiply that number by 2 since 4 tuners means two TiVos.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

mattack said:


> But anyway, how much is the minimum hardware that will take a Ceton card?


I have heard of people using it with Atom CPUs but that is with a hardware MPEG decoder such as a modern video card.

I would recommend at minimum a Pentium Dual core. My setup is a Core i3 530 Clarkdale.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

At least until Microsoft breaks it, which who knows if they will or won't, MCE definitely now beats out TiVo in tuners.

Tunersalad removes tuner limits in 7MC


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Not sure if bdraw is still checking this thread, but I'm a little baffled by his comment about wanting a "Stop" button on the TiVo remote. 


> . . . and the lack of a Stop button still baffles us to this day.


Just what exactly would you do with a "Stop" button on a TiVo? I've been using a TiVo for nearly a decade, and I don't think I've ever once even thought about the fact that it doesn't have a "Stop" button, and I have no idea what you'd use it for. There's pause if you want the show to stop playing, and there's the left arrow if you want to return to the menu. In bdraw's mind, what would happen on a TiVo when you hit the "Stop" button? Would the Now Playing menu come up? Would the show simply pause? Would it take you back to TiVo Central? All of those things can be accessed with a single button press on the TiVo remote, so I just have no idea what he intends to do with a "Stop" button that can't already be done on a TiVo.

I'd love to make better use of my 7MC, but I've never been able to get my 360 to connect wirelessly to my 7MC. If I run an ethernet cable down the hall to the office, I can access Media Center through the 360 just fine. But when I hook it up to the router acting as a wireless bridge, it craps out when trying to access MC. I can stream videos to the 360 just fine using the Video Gallery function, but can't get to the MC menus. Maybe I'd have more love for 7MC if I could actually get it to work properly, but so far, I'm kind of sour on it due to my inability to get it working in my preferred viewing location.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah I don't get the stop button, but I think he said he was thinking more about the video window. 

As far as your wireless problems, I can't help you there. It is one of the reasons I don't use a wireless network. I would imagine though the MCE interface is a little more network heavy since I believe it is a RDP session. 

One thing you could always do is pick up a set of MOCA adapters and then connect over the coax. Plug one in behind the 360 and connect the other to the wireless router and coax and you are pretty much good to go with nothing to really configure.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Yeah I don't get the stop button, but I think he said he was thinking more about the video window.
> 
> As far as your wireless problems, I can't help you there. It is one of the reasons I don't use a wireless network. I would imagine though the MCE interface is a little more network heavy since I believe it is a RDP session.
> 
> One thing you could always do is pick up a set of MOCA adapters and then connect over the coax. Plug one in behind the 360 and connect the other to the wireless router and coax and you are pretty much good to go with nothing to really configure.


I'll have to look into that MOCA adapter route. Will that work if the coax is already carrying cable TV signals, or does it have to be a dedicated coax running back to the router location?

I actually bought a powerline adapter, but that actually works worse than the wireless setup. I'm not going to be in my current house much longer, so I'm just hoping that I'll be able to get it working in our new house and I'm not going to spend much more time on it at the current location.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah it works alongside the existing cable streams. Verizon uses it on most of their installs for FiOS TV and cable. 

You can even sometimes find some cheap used MoCa adapters and routers on ebay from Verizon customers.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> Yeah I don't get the stop button, but I think he said he was thinking more about the video window.


Yeah, on the podcast, he complains about the "spoiler window". Though IIRC, he says the Moxi is even worse about the spoiler window... and IIRC, he said that on windows media center, you have to turn it to some other channel.. but with more tuners you're more likely to be able to do that.

so it sounded like all of them had this problem.

He semi-reasonably wanted to be able to hit 'stop' to stop the PIP window, and not pause. Kind of makes sense, though I generally agree that you don't really need a stop button on a Tivo remote.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'll have to look into that MOCA adapter route. Will that work if the coax is already carrying cable TV signals, or does it have to be a dedicated coax running back to the router location?
> 
> I actually bought a powerline adapter, but that actually works worse than the wireless setup. I'm not going to be in my current house much longer, so I'm just hoping that I'll be able to get it working in our new house and I'm not going to spend much more time on it at the current location.


The limitation with MoCA is that it's not compatible with satellite signals.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> The limitation with MoCA is that it's not compatible with satellite signals.


I wonder if it is the signal frequency though or more that you can't use it since the new Directv receivers use their own form of MoCa which would cause a conflict.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not sure if bdraw is still checking this thread, but I'm a little baffled by his comment about wanting a "Stop" button on the TiVo remote.


He obviously has no idea how a DVR actually works. His mindset is still stuck back in the days of VCRs (remember those?).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Umm, no, he is/was a Tivo user for a long time.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> He obviously has no idea how a DVR actually works. His mindset is still stuck back in the days of VCRs (remember those?).


 It's not so unusual. On ReplayTV when using stop button you get a menu option to "resume play" (default), "delete show" or "Play another recorded show" which takes you back to recorded shows listings. Cable company DVRs also have similar actions. TiVo is the odd one out where you have to learn to use the left arrow and it can take more navigation to go and delete the show once you "stop" playing it, especially if you don't know about "clear" shortcut.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DVRs do not have a normal STOP function, per se. What you described is a command that brings up an options menu when you decide to exit a recorded show. Every DVR has it's own set of remote shortcuts and commands and a Tivo is no different. A STOP command is usually linked to a function that ceases any physical movement of the transport mechanism that carries the media (e.g., VCR, CD, DVD, etc.). I don't think anyone would like to see their hard drive come to a screeching halt since the drive needs to continue spinning for the Tivo to operate.

The comment about a STOP function lacking in a Tivo is ludicrous for this very reason. I'm not sure what the author expects out of a STOP button, but it's apparent that he wants it to do something other than stop the transport.

Pressing PAUSE halts playback. The TiVo button takes you back to the main menu (i.e., TiVo Central), unless you're near the end of the recording, in which case you are presented with the option to either save or delete the recording. There are numerous options at the user's disposal after stopping playback so I'm unclear as to the author's beef about the STOP button missing.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

That's your interpretation of STOP based on using TiVo. STOP simply means stop playback for DVR use which is more intuitive IMO than Left Arrow to stop playback (or other means of exiting playback). Prior to using TiVo all the DVRs I used had a stop button on the remote used for that purpose. In any case this is way off topic to this thread so enough said on my part.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> DVRs do not have a normal STOP function, per se. What you described is a command that brings up an options menu when you decide to exit a recorded show. Every DVR has it's own set of remote shortcuts and commands and a Tivo is no different. A STOP command is usually linked to a function that ceases any physical movement of the transport mechanism that carries the media (e.g., VCR, CD, DVD, etc.). I don't think anyone would like to see their hard drive come to a screeching halt since the drive needs to continue spinning for the Tivo to operate.
> 
> The comment about a STOP function lacking in a Tivo is ludicrous for this very reason. I'm not sure what the author expects out of a STOP button, but it's apparent that he wants it to do something other than stop the transport.
> 
> Pressing PAUSE halts playback. The TiVo button takes you back to the main menu (i.e., TiVo Central), unless you're near the end of the recording, in which case you are presented with the option to either save or delete the recording. There are numerous options at the user's disposal after stopping playback so I'm unclear as to the author's beef about the STOP button missing.


Windows 7MC does have a stop function just like DVD players have a stop function. On 7MC, Stop stops the program that is currently playing returning you to recorded TV iirc. Stop stops live TV if you are watching live tv canceling the buffer. In essence it allows you to return to the menu without a video window and also turn off the buffers if you want. This is the functionality it sounds like Ben is looking for. Personally I just found it easier to turn off the live tv window in TiVo then ever have to deal with it.

TiVo's solution is to go to the menu and then hit pause or hold slow to turn off the video window. In 7MC it makes perfect sense in its usage. Since like most other consumer electronics you stop something when you want to return to a menu.

If TiVo offered a stop button, I would expect it to stop the current show I am playing back while returning me to the last menu without a video window so that if I don't hit stop I still see a video window when returning to the menus. I personally don't think it is necessary, but it all depends on how you approach your DVR.

Just like Ben talks about the Guide when comparing the two, it is a feature I don't and have never really used in any DVR. I always search by title or browse by channel/time. I never use the guide available during live tv though since I never watch live tv.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Windows 7MC does have a stop function just like DVD players have a stop function. On 7MC, Stop stops the program that is currently playing returning you to recorded TV iirc. Stop stops live TV if you are watching live tv canceling the buffer. In essence it allows you to return to the menu without a video window and also turn off the buffers if you want. This is the functionality it sounds like Ben is looking for. Personally I just found it easier to turn off the live tv window in TiVo then ever have to deal with it.
> 
> TiVo's solution is to go to the menu and then hit pause or hold slow to turn off the video window. In 7MC it makes perfect sense in its usage. Since like most other consumer electronics you stop something when you want to return to a menu.
> 
> ...


Having never used a TiVo Premiere with the preview window, I guess I don't know exactly how that works. But without the preview window, there's absolutely no use for a Stop button on a TiVo. The left arrow takes you back to the previous menu you were on, which is exactly what I would expect a Stop button to do, so there's no reason to duplicate that function.


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## Heinrich (Feb 28, 2002)

A windows system capable of 1080p (for blu-ray support) is just too power hungry to leave on 24x7x365, and it's also slow on bootup compared to an always-on TIVO. I use my Windows media for blu-ray and big screen web surfing, but, I can't even imagine using the thing for all my live TV needs. To get all that down (fast but yet power-easy and not too expensive) has been a challenge for me whenever I've investigated a Windows setup.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Then you may want to take a look at this thread just to start.

My PCs wake almost instantly from sleep so not sure what you are doing that it takes you that long. You wouldn't be booting-up your computer if you used it this way since you would want it available anytime you wanted to record, stream, or do anything else.

Some people are also currently trying Revos and Zino HDs as HTPC clients.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed. Power usage and management on modern PCs is just not that big of an issue, UNLESS you use Linksys extenders with 7MC, which don't send the wake-on-lan magic cookie to the HTPC. I believe the Xbox360s do that, so that is an alternative.

I would bet that a low-power HTPC with WOL enabled will use less juice than a Tivo Premiere over the average day.


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## drevilkep (Aug 4, 2010)

Heinrich said:


> A windows system capable of 1080p (for blu-ray support) is just too power hungry to leave on 24x7x365, and it's also slow on bootup compared to an always-on TIVO. I use my Windows media for blu-ray and big screen web surfing, but, I can't even imagine using the thing for all my live TV needs. To get all that down (fast but yet power-easy and not too expensive) has been a challenge for me whenever I've investigated a Windows setup.


Having built a couple modern HTPCs, the power usage vs. a Tivo is comparable. An Atom-based HTPC with the ION GPU is MORE than enough horsepower to decode 1080p files of any kind (including blu-ray) and it sips power, idling at ~25-30 watts. My Core i3 system is way overkill speed-wise, but only consumed 56 watts idle, and I wasn't using an 80-plus efficient power supply. If I had been, it would have been ~40 watts. The Tivo HD pulls about 38 watts according to my Kill-a-watt meter. I also very rarely rebooted my 7MC setup once it was running. As rarely as you'd reboot a Tivo. Turn off auto-updates and It's a non-issue.

I still chose a TiVo HD over adding a Ceton card to my HTPC, primarily because of the $400 cost of the card, but also because I would have needed TWO tuning adapters with associated cabling and space requirements. Our "entertainment center" is small and my wife doesn't like tons of cords and boxes (and neither do I, really). Plus, we are trying to watch LESS TV, and just make our viewing more "focused", rather than channel surf and watch whatever.

I like the Tivo's workflow with the "Now playing" list where I can put files from my server and watch and then delete them at my convenience. I'll queue up some content, push it to the Tivo overnight or whatever, and watch it later. Easy. It's nice having a menu of everything I'm really interested in watching, rather than 7MCs multiple sections for this that or the other type of media. Don't get me wrong, I see the value in the 7MC approach and think it has it's place, just not for how I operate. I'm not a big collector of content, more of a "watch it once, then I'm done" type of person.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Having never used a TiVo Premiere with the preview window, I guess I don't know exactly how that works. But without the preview window, there's absolutely no use for a Stop button on a TiVo. The left arrow takes you back to the previous menu you were on, which is exactly what I would expect a Stop button to do, so there's no reason to duplicate that function.


The stop button is much more obvious and intuitive. All other DVRs have them.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

I don't see how a "stop" button for live TV ever made any sense... It's live TV - you can't stop live.

If you really want a "stop" button on your TiVo you can put a label over the TiVo button that says "stop" and pretend it's not doing anything in the background.

TiVo has done a lot of things remarkably well. Unfortunately for TiVo those things are mostly their early developments.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not sure if bdraw is still checking this thread, but I'm a little baffled by his comment about wanting a "Stop" button on the TiVo remote.


The forum wasn't sending me my emails to let me know people posting. It is now.



DevdogAZ said:


> Just what exactly would you do with a "Stop" button on a TiVo? I've been using a TiVo for nearly a decade, and I don't think I've ever once even thought about the fact that it doesn't have a "Stop" button, and I have no idea what you'd use it for.


You are right, on a TiVo a stop button wouldn't be useful. I explained on the latest podcast, that although I wanted to point out how unintuitive it was to omit a stop button, I did not want to get into why it isn't there.

When I first switched to Media Center one of the hardest things for me to get used to was the navigation. There is Back button instead of using the Left button to go back like TiVo, and the "Now Playing" preview window in Windows 7 is the last menu item in any list, which I'd accidentally select.

What I realized after a few years was that I actually preferred it.

The stop button stops the preview window, which is much more intuitive than hitting "pause" to make it go away (like the TP). But if you are watching live TV, the stop button stops what you are doing and takes you back to wherever you were. If you hit the "Back" button it takes you back while letting you continue to watch what you were watching in the preview window.

So while I prefer the way Media Center does this, I don't think TiVo should simply add a stop button to the remote. No, if they wanted to do that they'd have to fundamentally change the way you navigate a TiVo, which is of course absurd.

And while this is a point of distinction that I thought was important enough to include in my comparison, I don't think it is an important point of distinction and if TiVo had a better multi-room solution and more tuners, I'd likely switch back for the improved reliability regardless of the lack of stop button.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> He obviously has no idea how a DVR actually works. His mindset is still stuck back in the days of VCRs (remember those?).


That couldn't be further from the truth. I play with every DVR I can get my hands on and spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

bdraw said:


> That couldn't be further from the truth. I play with every DVR I can get my hands on and spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff.


I see that now based on your last post. I've been playing with DVRs since they were first introduced and learned to hack or upgrade just about every type of DVR, save a few. At least now you see why a STOP button on a Tivo is irrelevent.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I see that now based on your last post. I've been playing with DVRs since they were first introduced and learned to hack or upgrade just about every type of DVR, save a few. At least now you see why a STOP button on a Tivo is irrelevent.


This is a ridiculous reply. "At least now," what makes you think I didn't always understand it? I've used DVRs since 2001, had a ReplayTV 4080 with com skip, a DirecTiVo HD the first month they came out (yes, I waited in line to pay $1000 for it), then turned around and hacked it to disable encryption etc. Had a Series3 the first day, and hacked it. Did one of the first Moxi reviews ever, and I bought a Media Center with CableCARD right after the first HD Extenders came out.

I am willing to pay for the best DVR I can get my hands on, and fully understand the differences. And just because I know why a TiVo doesn't have a stop button, doesn't mean I can't point out how unintuitive it is.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Tivo goes its own way, because they feel like they can (as a pioneer I guess). It's the Tivo Way(tm). I have the same beef with the recording indicators not showing up in the guide, which every other freaking DVR in existence has.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

bdraw said:


> This is a ridiculous reply. "At least now," what makes you think I didn't always understand it? I've used DVRs since 2001, had a ReplayTV 4080 with com skip, a DirecTiVo HD the first month they came out (yes, I waited in line to pay $1000 for it), then turned around and hacked it to disable encryption etc. Had a Series3 the first day, and hacked it. Did one of the first Moxi reviews ever, and I bought a Media Center with CableCARD right after the first HD Extenders came out.
> 
> I am willing to pay for the best DVR I can get my hands on, and fully understand the differences. And just because I know why a TiVo doesn't have a stop button, doesn't mean I can't point out how unintuitive it is.


Well, take it for what it's worth. I have no idea when you reached an understanding other than what I read. It's not really worth debating in any case.

FWIW, I've used DVRs since the first Tivo was introduced (remember the original HDR-112?) I followed the threads posted in the AVS Forums that lead to the initial hacking of a Tivo just to add a larger hard drive (don't let my forum join date fool you as I was under another pseudonym at the time). This is all before the TCF was ever established as a separate forum. I also had several of the older Panasonic Showstoppers and 3000 series ReplayTVs before I eventually migrated to the series 1 DirecTivos.

I didn't take the plunge into HD until a while later so I never bought a HDTivo at the original $1000 price tag, although I bought my first one at $900. I've owned dozens more HDTivos and DirecTivos (series 1 and series 2 models) as well as several UltimateTV DVRs, which I actually preferred to the DirecTivos. It had a much better UI, as did the ReplayTV, than Tivo. Unfortunately, Microsoft abandoned support for it almost immediately after they started selling them. If DirecTV hadn't charged double for the UTV DVR service I would have probably kept on using them. I upgraded or hacked every DVR I've ever owned, including the ReplayTV/Showstopper models and UTVs as well as several Dish PVRs.

In all that time and literally dozens of DVRs later, I never felt the need for a STOP button as used in the conventional sense. There are numerous other ways to exit a recording during playback that eliminates the need for an extra useless button (Tivo could eliminate the silly Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down buttons and I wouldn't miss them either).


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> In all that time and literally dozens of DVRs later, I never felt the need for a STOP button as used in the conventional sense. There are numerous other ways to exit a recording during playback that eliminates the need for an extra useless button (Tivo could eliminate the silly Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down buttons and I wouldn't miss them either).


Yes, of course there are a number of ways and some of them might be much better. But it has to be much much better to warrant reducing the intuitiveness of the experience.


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