# Tivo Series 3 Release - Before the end of the year.



## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

As some of you might have read I decided to dump Tivo and DirecTV (won't rehash it here again) but before I placed my order with the local sat. dealer I decided to call Tivo today because I would certainly entertain the idea of just using a new tivo if the OTA receiver is sensitive enough for my location and the speed is faster than the sloth powered DirecTV-HDTivo. The sales person I spoke with says that they were told that they will be releasing the new S3 tivo "before the end of the year". I am not sure if this is the answer most have been getting but I was hoping that maybe with the recent "coming very soon" comments from Tivo that I could get a more definitive answer.

Just thought I would share.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

They have been saying the 2nd half of 2006 since CES, maybe before.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

MarcusInMD said:


> Just thought I would share.


Thank you for making the attempt to get an answer. Not being able to record the HD channels on the plasma at home is driving me insane.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Expect the Series3 sometime between late September and late October.

No way does Tivo want to compete with the PS3 for your Christmas dollars.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Expect the Series3 sometime between late September and late October.
> 
> No way does Tivo want to compete with the PS3 for your Christmas dollars.


People keep saying this but I know nobody who is buying a PS3 this christmas, seriously what is worth $600 about that system, nothing. NO coemption for my bucks here Tivo!


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## LosAngelesSports (Aug 15, 2006)

i recently bought a new Plasma TV, a Samsung 32 inch LN-S32510, and the only problem is that Tivo doesnt have an HD connection. i really cant wait for the HD Tivo so i can really enjoy this new TV. HBO Shows are gonna be great as are Lakers, Dodgers and Kings games. i hope the late September - late october date you mention is accurate. 

im a novice at this stuff, but is the new Series 3 going to have HDMI connections, etc and what other upgraded features is it going to have? Thanks


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Expect the Series3 sometime between late September and late October.
> 
> No way does Tivo want to compete with the PS3 for your Christmas dollars.


I have to lol at the Playstation fan boys. I think they feel no electronic devices should be released when the PS3 comes out because the PS3 will just crush it lol. These devices help each other by moving the HDTV market further along. Personally I'll be picking one or two S3 up this year, the Wii, and a HDDVD drive for my 360. When PS3 has some decent games I'll pick one up to.


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## mattboom (Dec 29, 2004)

I recently moved and now have a different cable company (Bright House), so I thought I'd give their HD DVR a try. I tried the one at my old cable company (Comcast) and it was crap.
Well I was surprised to see how much like Tivo the new DVR is. It's not quite as great as Tivo in features, but it's veryusable until Series 3 comes out.
So I called Tivo last night to cancel my service and told them I was waiting until the HD Tivo comes out. The guy told me there was a press release issued a few days ago listing the release date as the end of Sept. I asked him how much it would cost and he said he didn't know.
I know no such release has been given to the public, but maybe it was for employees only. Or maybe he's full of crab and was just trying to get me not to cancel.
He ended up offering me three months free, so I took it. But I'm still using the cable company's HD DVR until Series 3 and I'm loving it!

Matt


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

For a product such as this, there is a period between the time the problems are worked out and the time the product is released --- while the product is being fabricated, packaged, and readied for distribution. That's probably more than a few weeks, so we'll have at least that much warning before the S3 is available for purchase and delivery.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

mattboom said:


> I recently moved and now have a different cable company (Bright House), so I thought I'd give their HD DVR a try. I tried the one at my old cable company (Comcast) and it was crap.
> Well I was surprised to see how much like Tivo the new DVR is. It's not quite as great as Tivo in features, but it's veryusable until Series 3 comes out.
> So I called Tivo last night to cancel my service and told them I was waiting until the HD Tivo comes out. The guy told me there was a press release issued a few days ago listing the release date as the end of Sept. I asked him how much it would cost and he said he didn't know.
> I know no such release has been given to the public, but maybe it was for employees only. Or maybe he's full of crab and was just trying to get me not to cancel.
> ...


This is in line with many of the rumors that have been circulated. I myself was told somewhere around Oct when I called to order my DT earlier this year. One can only hope.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

mattboom said:


> The guy told me there was a press release issued a few days ago listing the release date as the end of Sept.


Has anyone out there (employee or otherwise) heard about or seen such a document? We should try to track this down further! (I'd do it myself but I have no idea where to look whereas others here and on various blogs are sharp as a knife at finding this stuff.)


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## Jeffho (Apr 8, 2004)

For what it's worth. I was talking to a friend of mine about the new Series 3 box coming out. He deals with people at our local electronic store, and they say that (like we all know) it will be out before Christmas but with a price of $399. It's just another rumor out there, but I think that $399 would be a reasonable price.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

Jeffho said:


> For what it's worth. I was talking to a friend of mine about the new Series 3 box coming out. He deals with people at our local electronic store, and they say that (like we all know) it will be out before Christmas but with a price of $399. It's just another rumor out there, but I think that $399 would be a reasonable price.


Honestly, (if that turns out to be true) I'm relieved by a $399 price tag. Not that that's chump change, but I've seen speculation around the $800 and $900 mark (which I had no earthly idea how I'd come up with).

But the before Christmas stings a little bit...how long before Christmas? Four months before Christmas would be GREAT! Four weeks...I think I'll die! I want my S3 yesterday!!


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

amjustice said:


> People keep saying this but I know nobody who is buying a PS3 this christmas, seriously what is worth $600 about that system, nothing. NO coemption for my bucks here Tivo!


People are funny. Xbox360 is a big seller right? Well PS3 offers more for basically the same price. Lets see...

Xbox360 Premium $399. (includes system and hard drive)
Xbox360 Wireless Network adapter $99. (not necessary but needed to equal the PS3)
(updated) now factor in $200 HD-DVD drive.

So for $699 you get a wireless ready xbox360 with HD move capabilites. No HDMI.

$599 is the price of the good PS3. $100 less. You get Blue-ray player. You get the wireless adapter built in. And you get a more powerful system. Yeah it will still struggle to sell since the price is high and bundled goods but overall less than the xbox and you get much more. Also factor in NO cost for online play (that we know of) which is $50 a year from microsoft.

Sorry to crash this thread. But the PS3 is not that insane. yeah it is pricey but overall cheaper than xbox360. Not that unheard of if you ask me.


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## bollwerk (Apr 8, 2005)

The problem with the PS3 is not that it's so expensive (considering the features) necessarily. It's that you don't get a choice. You are forced into getting a Blu-ray player and whatever else it comes with. I buy a game console to play games, not watch movies. Personally, I think the main reason Sony is putting the Blu-ray players in the PS3 is to attempt to strongarm the public into picking Blu-ray over HD-DVD.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

bollwerk said:


> The problem with the PS3 is not that it's so expensive (considering the features) necessarily. It's that you don't get a choice. You are forced into getting a Blu-ray player and whatever else it comes with. I buy a game console to play games, not watch movies. Personally, I think the main reason Sony is putting the Blu-ray players in the PS3 is to attempt to strongarm the public into picking Blu-ray over HD-DVD.


EXACTLY! Why pay for an overpriced DVD player of a format that isnt going to make it (so a lot of people are saying recently, Also they are saying HD-DVD isnt going to make it and whatever comes next will trump them both) So no you can't tell me that PS3 is going to be cheeper because I would guess that most people will not get the HD-DVD added on drive. People want a GAME SYSTEM not all the extra BS that Sony is trying to sell. They are totally trying to use PS3 to push their format and did a half assed job on their game system. Me...Im buying a Wii and a Tivo Series 3 with my money. Maybe I will reserve a PS3 as well just to make a ton of money selling it to some fanboy like yourself on ebay as well though, we will see  BTW I appologise for hijacking this thread.


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

jeffrypennock said:


> mattboom said:
> 
> 
> > The guy told me there was a press release issued a few days ago listing the release date as the end of Sept.
> ...


Since we got sidetracked, I'll refocus us and ask again...has anyone heard about or seen such a document?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

jeffrypennock said:


> Since we got sidetracked, I'll refocus us and ask again...has anyone heard about or seen such a document?


Of course not - if anyone had, there would be about twenty threads on it by now.

Given that the CSRs don't likely have access to that info, I suspect someone was blowing smoke to keep the OP as a customer.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

jfh3 said:


> Of course not - if anyone had, there would be about twenty threads on it by now.
> 
> Given that the CSRs don't likely have access to that info, I suspect someone was blowing smoke to keep the OP as a customer.


Agreed, had anyone actually seen it, there would be pandamonium on these forums.


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## jon96cobra (May 24, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Expect the Series3 sometime between late September and late October.


I have been looking for detailed pictures of the Series 3 but all I have been able to find is front shots. Has anyone seen what the back looks like?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

there's some pictures of it floating around here someplace from the prototype at the last ces.

search in some of the ces threads.

I think it was megazone that posted the pics. OR maybe look for dave zatz since i think he wound up hosting them 

(sorry if there's any misinformation there- going from memory)


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> there's some pictures of it floating around here someplace from the prototype at the last ces.
> 
> search in some of the ces threads.
> 
> ...


Here's one off of megazone's site.









Or you can just browse around the directory at http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/


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## danitaz (Oct 15, 2005)

Hmmmm - from the signs on the megazone pics it says "record hi-definition cable TV" - does this mean that it won't "work" with satellite receivers? I've been playing with the idea of switching our Satellite service to HD, but it's Dish Network. I've been looking at DirecTV, and just have no idea what to do at this point - other than pout!

D.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

It does mean that. The S3 will not work with satellite, or more precisely satellite providers won't let 3rd parties work directly with their encrypted bit-stream!


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

danitaz said:


> does this mean that it won't "work" with satellite receivers?


Nope.

Cable and Antenna only.

Cable being the actual cable, no set top boxes, the S3 only has coax inputs and no control of outside boxes to change channels.

phox


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm sorry if this interrupts the flow of this thread, but I am confused about something here.

Currently, my version2 TIVOs work rather well with my Directv service receiver boxes.

I am not sure I understand why I hear that the forthcoming S3 won't work with Directv.

Can someone please elaborate?? In fair detail?

(I'm not shy of the tech..... just dumb about this area. For now.)

Thanks in advance.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

painkiller said:


> I'm sorry if this interrupts the flow of this thread, but I am confused about something here.
> 
> Currently, my version2 TIVOs work rather well with my Directv service receiver boxes.
> 
> ...


The S3 is not designed to control external boxes. Since the S3 is an HD Tivo, I expect the reasoning was that there would be little or no call for driving external boxes since you can't get HD that way (or you can't realistically get HD that way).

So the S3 is more self-contained. You can connect NTSC, or ATSC, or analog cable, or digital cable w/cablecard. That's it.


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## Ripcord2 (Jun 6, 2004)

cheer said:


> The S3 is not designed to control external boxes. Since the S3 is an HD Tivo, I expect the reasoning was that there would be little or no call for driving external boxes since you can't get HD that way (or you can't realistically get HD that way).


I guess that doesn't make any sense to me. My cable box puts out a hi-def signal via component cable or VGA that my TV can interpret. Why wouldn't Tivo be able to record the same thing?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> I guess that doesn't make any sense to me. My cable box puts out a hi-def signal via component cable or VGA that my TV can interpret. Why wouldn't Tivo be able to record the same thing?


The technology doesn't exist to record HDTV from component / VGA / DVI in realtime in a consumer product. The technology to do that is only found in professional broadcast products costing $3000+ to $25,000, typically boxes that are twice the size of your computer. That is why Tivo cannot build a product a record HDTV from a Dish or DirecTV receiver -- the technology simply isn't available (and isn't coming soon) in a form that they or anyone else could implement in a consumer product.

(To build a product for Dish Network, Dish would have to supply Tivo with the technology to decrypt their channels, and Dish has no interest in doing that. The same goes for DirecTV, now. The channels on those providers are encrypted and Tivo has no means to decrypt them in the Series3.)

The Series3 is a product for cable / off-air. The Series3 *replaces* your cable box. It seamlessly integrates two analog tuners, two off-air (antenna) digital tuners, and two digital cable tuners into a single box with full Tivo DVR functionality. It can record any two SD or HD programs at once, regardless of whether you get them from cable or an antenna. It records the digital signal off cable and the airwaves at 100% original quality -- there is none of the PQ degradation or channel-changing-delay you see on the Series2. The Series3 is able to display and record the encrypted channels on digital cable by way of a CableCard, a smartcard-like device that all major cable companies now offer to their customers, as required by law.

The Series3 is made possible by our government, and more specifically the FCC, which requires that cable companies open their networks to third-party products like Tivo through a common standard known as OpenCable (CableCards). Unfortunately, there is no such requirement for satellite companies, who use their own proprietary encryption systems and don't share access with anyone.

The Series3 is also the first Tivo to support external hard drive expansion. You can add an external SATA hard drive to increase capacity.


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## LosAngelesSports (Aug 15, 2006)

thank you for that very informative post. i learned a lot right there.


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## NeedTivoHelp (Nov 22, 2005)

I am thinking of getting it when it comes out. I get the whole cablecard thing and that it is not designed to control external boxes. I currently have Time Warner Cable,. My question is how do I access Video on Demand and Pay Per View programs and record them (can I ever) using a Series 3. Will this be possible?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

NeedTivoHelp said:


> I am thinking of getting it when it comes out. I get the whole cablecard thing and that it is not designed to control external boxes. I currently have Time Warner Cable,. My question is how do I access Video on Demand and Pay Per View programs and record them (can I ever) using a Series 3. Will this be possible?


From everything I've seen posted, no.


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## alert5 (Nov 16, 2003)

Will it be possible to plug FIOS-TV into this box?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

alert5 said:


> Will it be possible to plug FIOS-TV into this box?


Probably -- FIOS is essentially cable technology and Verizon supports (or is planning to support) cablecards.

U-Verse, on the other hand, won't work at all.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

NeedTivoHelp said:


> I am thinking of getting it when it comes out. I get the whole cablecard thing and that it is not designed to control external boxes. I currently have Time Warner Cable,. My question is how do I access Video on Demand and Pay Per View programs and record them (can I ever) using a Series 3. Will this be possible?


Movies can still be rented over the phone on most Cable Co's setups. You just want be able to order it with the cable box (S3) as CableCARD v1 does not support two way communications.

That said, most companies block Pay Per View movies from being recorded in DVRs, this is easily done with the 5C flag. But this is also dependent on the cable co's implementation.

Possible, Yes. Pain to do, Yes.

It comes down to how valuable it is to you to have these services. Personally I've purchased two Pay Per View movies in my life (both with coupons which made them free in the end.) I don't really care for iControl.

The bigger question is if your local Cable Co's going to implement Switch Digtal Video and if they implement it in a 'CableCARD Friendly' maner.

CCourtney


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Will it be possible to plug FIOS-TV into this box?


Yes.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> My question is how do I access Video on Demand and Pay Per View programs and record them (can I ever) using a Series 3. Will this be possible?


The Series3 will not support Video on Demand. However, we are not likely to see any substantial HDTV VOD on any provider except FiOS in the next two years.

Moreover, there is nothing stopping you from keeping the digital cable box to use just for VOD. It just means you'll be paying the extra $2 or $3 to get a CableCard, instead of having them replace your digital cable box with a CableCard. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you from using a $2 splitter from Radio Shack, sending one end to the Series3 and another to your old digital cable box for VOD.

The whole "Series3 can't do VOD" issue is totally overblown, because you can get Series3 and still keep the old box for the few times when you do want to watch overcompressed SD VOD.


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## dv8 (Sep 13, 2004)

Great point!


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

Thanks, folks.

I understand better now. Much appreciated.


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## alienxg7 (Aug 3, 2005)

Hey!

Well, since the Series 3 TiVo has not reached the stage of imminent deployment, I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo will/has made a lot of changes that people won't see until closer to the launch date.

Wouldn't it be better if there was more than one HDMI outputs so the DVD player AND television could be connected in this manner, rather than using component too (which is really good in itself though).

I wonder if the Series 3 will support just the first version of cablecards (I wonder if the FCC will/can mandate that Version 2 [two-way] be supported on devices like TiVo)?

If only the first version of cablecards is supported, then no VOD obviously. However, if the two-way cablecard (v2?) is supported, then VOD would be a part of the card as well as the cable-company's on-screen guide (at the same time as TiVo's guide).

Do current cablecards support HDTV?

I would hope that cablecards that are two-way are supported on the TiVo because of the VOD and I also hope there is some better way to deal with the interactive guide that comes with cable companies. All I can do with my current Motorola DCT2000 box's guide (i-Guide) is make the guide disappear faster than the default. Not having the guide is actually the advantage of v1 cablecards!

However, TiVo is trying to get into the VOD market itself and so I doubt along with others who have commented on this that TiVo would want to support the VOD of cable companies unfortunately!

I wonder if DirecTV and/or Dish Network will introduce their own sort of cable-card which then "could" be supported by the TiVo.
Couldn't the providers just be private about the technology (isn't that the cause of their hesitancy) and make cards and boast that the cards are replacements for the clunky receivers??? Of course, technology would have to support slots for the cards for the most benefit.
However, the satellite providers "could" sell USB adapters for these devices (or some other adapter) so the customer could have the benefits of having a cablecard including using the TV remote to change channels, but with just an extra cable. In this case of course the TiVo would have to support the card's adapter!!!

But like everyone knows the satellite providers (Isn't the DirecTV one supposed to be pretty dang good?) have their own receiver/DVR devices and will continue to improve upon these. The customers will probably buy the satellite DVRs instead of TiVos for the most part. Unlike traditional cable DVRs, the satellite dvrs (I've only read about DirecTV's, I don't know how good Dish Network's is) are/will be well-made and function well.

Anyway, in summary I think the Series 3 will be an improvement to current models in many regards such as HDTV, however just like with everything in technology it will not be perfect and will not satisfy everyone.

~Patrick


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

alienxg7 said:


> Wouldn't it be better if there was more than one HDMI outputs so the DVD player AND television could be connected in this manner, rather than using component too (which is really good in itself though).


I don't understand this. Why would you connect the output of the Tivo to your DVD player?


> I wonder if the Series 3 will support just the first version of cablecards (I wonder if the FCC will/can mandate that Version 2 [two-way] be supported on devices like TiVo)?


Pretty sure I've seen that it will not. Multistream, yes. Two-way, no.


> Do current cablecards support HDTV?


Yes.


> I wonder if DirecTV and/or Dish Network will introduce their own sort of cable-card which then "could" be supported by the TiVo.


They have no intentions of doing so, although D* is coming out with some kind of PC-based initiative with Intel. Based on viiv, no doubt. Not really the same thing.


> Couldn't the providers just be private about the technology (isn't that the cause of their hesitancy)


Nope -- there aren't really secrets to most of the technology. It's more about them wanting to control your viewing environment -- to be able to do advertising and other such stuff.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> The technology doesn't exist to record HDTV from component / VGA / DVI in realtime in a consumer product. The technology to do that is only found in professional broadcast products costing $3000+ to $25,000, typically boxes that are twice the size of your computer. That is why Tivo cannot build a product a record HDTV from a Dish or DirecTV receiver -- the technology simply isn't available (and isn't coming soon) in a form that they or anyone else could implement in a consumer product.....


I used to beleive this as a fact, but I'm not sure anymore.

If camcorder makers can make camcorders that can encode HD in realtime MPEG4 for under a grand doesn't that mean you can make an MPEG4 real time HD encoder chip for comsumer products? I've got a sanyo HD1 that has a 5 megapixel imaning chip that creates 720P 30FPS MPEG4 on an SD card. Speculation is the only reason it's 30FPS is to keep from overwelming the SD write speed.

The way it has taken sooo long for tivo to get the series 3 out, I'm sure an mpeg4 encoding device is years away from Tivo, but I'm curious what people think if that technology in the camcorder could one day allow a dvr to encode an HDMI or component stream?

Would an imaging chip in a comcorder output a similar amoutn of raw data as the HD outputs of a STB? (I haven't a clue...)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

alienxg7 said:


> ...
> 
> I wonder if DirecTV and/or Dish Network will introduce their own sort of cable-card which then "could" be supported by the TiVo.
> 
> ...





cheer said:


> ....They have no intentions of doing so, although D* is coming out with some kind of PC-based initiative with Intel. Based on viiv, no doubt. Not really the same thing. .


the funny thing is I distinctly remember Directv *****ing that an all inclusive open standard for everyone was the best plan when the FCC gave the go ahead for cable labs to make the POD rules. I think they whined pretty loudly that they were not included in the POD standard creation and how it was bad for the consumer.

Then later on when the consumer electronics people said they thought that Directv should have to comply, all of a sudden directv balked. Much of their argument was that they had at least 3 differnt companies competeing at retail with differnt choices for consumers.

Funny how it all turned out....


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## jscozz (Sep 28, 2002)

Sorry if this was posted somewhere else... I was not able to find info on this... but has anyone seen info anywhere about what the S3 HDMI output options will be? Can it be set to just pas through and output whatever the source is and do no scaling? i.e. 720p, 1080i, 480i, etc.? Can it output up to 1080p (either upscaled or pass through a long time from now when we get some broadcast 1080p content).

Also, I assume the "cable tuners" are QAM, and not just analog cable tuners?

Jeff


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## jscozz (Sep 28, 2002)

Also, I would hope the ethernet port is gigabit... but I have not found any info on that...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Also, I assume the "cable tuners" are QAM, and not just analog cable tuners?


That's correct. The Series3 has six tuners total -- two analog, two QAM, and two digital ATSC (for over-the-air). It can record two channels at once, regardless of source.



> Also, I would hope the ethernet port is gigabit...


The ethernet port is 100Mbit. With a 100Mbit connection, one typically sees 60-70Mbits of real-world throughput. A MPEG-2 HD stream is at most 19.4Mbps. Hence, the network connection on the Series3 can transfer at least three HD streams in realtime, provided the processor can support that. There's no absolutely no need for gigabit.



> Sorry if this was posted somewhere else... I was not able to find info on this... but has anyone seen info anywhere about what the S3 HDMI output options will be? Can it be set to just pas through and output whatever the source is and do no scaling? i.e. 720p, 1080i, 480i, etc.? Can it output up to 1080p (either upscaled or pass through a long time from now when we get some broadcast 1080p content).


We don't know yet. However, the chipset used in the Series3 supports native pass-through without scaling. It can decode 1080p content; I don't think it can output 1080p60; it might output 1080p24, but Tivo wouldn't enable that for compatibility reasons. Read more about the chip right here.



> Would an imaging chip in a comcorder output a similar amoutn of raw data as the HD outputs of a STB? (I haven't a clue...)


It's apples and oranges, unfortunately. They take one digital frame or a short sequence of frames, compress it with MPEG-4 @ 1280x720 (not at the highest quality), then move on to the next frame or frame sequence. Works in much the same way as a digital camera with JPEG compression set, except it works at 30fps instead of 3-5fps like cheap cameras. The actual capture of the digital frame and the compression all takes place within a single chip -- where bandwidth is high and little or no external memory access is required. With a component input, the Tivo would have to digitize the high-def analog stream, a *highly* computational step that these cameras don't have to deal with.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> The way it has taken sooo long for tivo to get the series 3 out, I'm sure an mpeg4 encoding device is years away from Tivo, but I'm curious what people think if that technology in the camcorder could one day allow a dvr to encode an HDMI or component stream?


HDMI won't ever happen -- HDCP is designed to prevent such a thing. Component, in theory, could happen but there won't be that much demand for it and the studios, etc. will fight such a thing on all fronts.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> ...
> 
> It's apples and oranges, unfortunately. They take one digital frame, compress it with MPEG-4 @ 1280x720 (not at the highest quality), then move on to the next frame. Works in much the same way as a digital camera with JPEG compression set, except it works at 30fps instead of 3-5fps like cheap cameras. The actual capture of the digital frame and the compression all takes place within a single chip -- where bandwidth is high and little or no external memory access is required. With a component input, the Tivo would have to digitize the high-def analog stream, a *highly* computational step that these cameras don't have to deal with.


thanks for the explanation.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

cheer said:


> HDMI won't ever happen -- HDCP is designed to prevent such a thing. Component, in theory, could happen but there won't be that much demand for it and the studios, etc. will fight such a thing on all fronts.


seems by BK's post above it's still years off.

But what does HDCP have to do with it? Couldn't/ wouldn't such a device just respect the flags in the HDCP stream and abide by them?

EDIT:
BKDTV-

reread your answer- seems digitizing the analog stream is the computational mess in your post. Would taking a fat uncompressed digital stream off HDMI be any easier?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> seems by BK's post above it's still years off.
> 
> But what does HDCP have to do with it? Couldn't/ wouldn't such a device just respect the flags in the HDCP stream and abide by them?


Right, but if most content has the CP flag set (as is likely sooner or later) you wouldn't be able to capture much of anything.


> seems digitizing the analog stream is the computational mess in your post. Would taking a fat uncompressed digital stream off HDMI be any easier?


Yes, but you'd still have to do real-time compression of same.

Given the very limited use such a device would have anyway, I wouldn't expect to see such a device anytime soon.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

interesting discussion but why does the CP flag matter?

If the CP flag says dont record then a cablecard DVR, OTA DVR, or integrated Sat/cable DVR cant record either. No?

The only time it would matter if I understand correctly is if there was a copy once flag and you first recorded it to an integrated DVR and then tried to copy that DVR's HDMI output.

I dont see it anytime soon eitehr but I'd think such a device is way more usefull and future proof then anything today. It would work with any STB and allow you to use it gfor PPV, VOD, switched video, IPTV, or anything anyone can come up with as long as tivo updated the software to run the new STB's.

What I'm wondering is how many bits are used to describe a 5 megapixel imaging chip and how does that compare to the uncompressed bits used to descibe each frame of an HDMI stream? If they are similar then i think the technology is possible in a few years. If an HDMI stream just uses tons more data then it's still aways off....


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm about to buy a plasma TV, but the model I purchase may depend on the features of the upcoming Series3 TiVo. For example, one TV I'm considering has a CableCard slot, while another does not. 

Since I'm relatively uninformed, I'd appreciate it if somene could answer some questions I have...

1. Does the Series3 only support CableCard and not external cable/satellite boxes?
2. Will the Series3 have Dual Tuner recording capability?
3. Will the Series3 be available in recording capacities similiar to the Series2 (ie. 180 hrs), despite recording much larger files with HDTV signal?


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

headless chicken said:


> I'm about to buy a plasma TV, but the model I purchase may depend on the features of the upcoming Series3 TiVo. For example, one TV I'm considering has a CableCard slot, while another does not.
> 
> Since I'm relatively uninformed, I'd appreciate it if somene could answer some questions I have...
> 
> ...


1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. It has a SATA port which allows you to add additional, external SATA drives.


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## monkeyboy1010 (Nov 17, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> The whole "Series3 can't do VOD" issue is totally overblown, because you can get Series3 and still keep the old box for the few times when you do want to watch overcompressed SD VOD.


TOTALLY! VOD is just plain UGLY (at least on TWC in L.A.) Folks who are putting down money on the S3, I would dare say, are looking for time shifting HD content and SD would be a low priority.


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## mattboom (Dec 29, 2004)

headless chicken said:


> I'm about to buy a plasma TV, but the model I purchase may depend on the features of the upcoming Series3 TiVo. For example, one TV I'm considering has a CableCard slot, while another does not.
> 
> Since I'm relatively uninformed, I'd appreciate it if somene could answer some questions I have...
> 
> ...


 It wouldn't matter if the TV you buy has a cable card or not since the new Tivo will have a Cable Card.


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## Ba Boop (May 2, 2004)

A little off topic but why would anyone buy a plasma tv? Life span claims are just that, claims. Everyone I know that bought the first ones and every bar that has them have all degraded in picture and most bars have replaced them. I guess if money is no object I'd get one too. LCD is a proven workhorse display. What am I missing?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Ba Boop said:


> A little off topic but why would anyone buy a plasma tv? Life span claims are just that, claims. Everyone I know that bought the first ones and every bar that has them have all degraded in picture and most bars have replaced them. I guess if money is no object I'd get one too. LCD is a proven workhorse display. What am I missing?


More accurate information about modern plasmas, evidently.


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## Ba Boop (May 2, 2004)

Sorry I don't really pay attntion to Best Buy salesmen...


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Ba Boop,

Nobody should pay attention to BB Salesmen, especially in Sugar Land. They come up to you and start spouting crap about stuff and the vast majority of either inaccurate or just plain wrong.

That said, while the early plasma's did have a very poor life span, the modern plasma screen has a much better life span and I wouldn't stay away if that was the driving factor.

I'm a DLP person and feel it actually produces a better picture and is significantly less expensive. I see SDE on Plasma and it doesn't look as vibrant to me.

Not to mention the power consumption on a 60-70" plasma will cost ~$300 more every 6000hrs of use (based on numbers power consumption numbers provided on cnet and $0.16/kwhr) This more than covers me on bulb replacement (Currently at 5500hrs on original bulb)

CCourtney


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## Ba Boop (May 2, 2004)

Ccoutny, I was just kidding about Best Buy. I agree with you. The only reason Plasma got going was because of size restrictions formerly for LCD. LCD are being made up to 70'' last I checked and Plasma will be just something that sounded cool. The first gen was rated at 10k hours at 6 hours a day that would give you about 4 and a half years. There must have been a Bull S*** factor of 2 cause no one I know made it that far and even if they did where is the value. So when they claim 30k hours, the jury is still out. Do they look good? Yes. Can you depend on them??? I was just questioning getting your moneys worth not to mention your power consumption numbers.

I'm simply saying I have an HP brand 15" LCD monitor I over payed $1200 for back in 1999 (but thats what they went for) that has been on 12 hours a day with no screen saver for the first 4 years and continuously with no screen saver for the past 2 years and it has Zero burn in and looks as good as the day I got it. Now thats a track record!!!


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## HD Frustrated (Aug 20, 2006)

Very good info, Thanks!!

Can you educate me regarding CableCard functionality? If I get one card from my provider, with the S3, will it still be able to record 2 (SD or HD) programs at once? Would need 2 cards to do this? Trying to avoid unnecessary card rental.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> If I get one card from my provider, with the S3, will it still be able to record 2 (SD or HD) programs at once? Would need 2 cards to do this? Trying to avoid unnecessary card rental.


You would need two standard CableCards or one multistream CableCard. Multistream cards will be readily available from major cable companies in large markets later this year, and in most other markets 1Q 2007. As far as paying twice to get two standard cards, talk to your cable company. If they understand both cards are going to the same TV, they'll probably cut you a break and only charge you for one (as the Comcast here intends to do).

When ordering, you state the following -- "I would like to order a multistream CableCard for my dual tuner HDTV." If they reply with "we don't have multistream cards yet," you say in response, "well, my box needs a multistream or two standard cards to work correctly, can you give me two standard cards until you have the multistream ones in stock?"

_Note the Series3 will function just fine with one standard CableCard, but it needs two standard CableCards or one multistream CableCard to record two encrypted digital cable channels simultaneously. Even with one standard CableCard, you could still record one digital channel from an antenna or one channel from analog cable at the same time as a program from digital cable._

Series3 CableCard screenshot


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Even with one standard CableCard, you could still record one digital channel from an antenna or one channel from analog cable at the same time as a program from digital cable.[/i]


Didn't we decide in another thread that this ability (dual asymmetric tuner) has never been officially announced?


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## Flizzoyd83 (Sep 3, 2004)

Will the Series 3 be able to upgrade to CableCard 2.0 capability later via software update if the 2.0 standard is not finished by the release date or would it be a hardware upgrade?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Flizzoyd83 said:


> Will the Series 3 be able to upgrade to CableCard 2.0 capability later via software update if the 2.0 standard is not finished by the release date or would it be a hardware upgrade?


2.0 (the bidirectional support needed for PPV) will be a hardware upgrade from 1.0. There is just (not yet finalized) extra hardware that will be needed in the cable card device.

Now 2.0 cards are required to be backwards compatable, so when they come out you should be able to install one in an S3 TiVo, but it won't give you any more functionality than a CC 1.0 multistream card would.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Didn't we decide in another thread that this ability (dual asymmetric tuner) has never been officially announced?


Ok, well, at least recording from one analog cable channel plus one digital cable channel is supported with a single CableCard.

That said, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to record from cable + OTA --- the HDTV DirecTivo can do this, and the Series3 uses a much newer version of the software.


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## Flizzoyd83 (Sep 3, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> 2.0 (the bidirectional support needed for PPV) will be a hardware upgrade from 1.0. There is just (not yet finalized) extra hardware that will be needed in the cable card device.
> 
> Now 2.0 cards are required to be backwards compatable, so when they come out you should be able to install one in an S3 TiVo, but it won't give you any more functionality than a CC 1.0 multistream card would.


So, Tivo series 3 wont support PPV or OnDemand services as far as you know?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> So, Tivo series 3 wont support PPV or OnDemand services as far as you know?


That's correct, the standards don't exist to allow a third-party like Tivo to offer two-way services like PPV and OnDemand. That's coming in the next 18-24 months, but for now, it is the exclusive domain of your cable company. That said, PPV may be supported by calling in to order, just like it is on older set-top boxes today.

Of course, as mentioned before, you can just keep an old cable set-top box for the low-quality SD VOD content. Just buy a $2 splitter from Radioshack and one run cable to the Series3 and another to your old cable box, for those rare occasions when you want to watch VOD.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Ok, well, at least recording from one analog cable channel plus one digital cable channel is supported with a single CableCard.


Where have they announced this capability? I can't find it. It would require dual asymetric tuning. i.e. the ability to resolve conflicts between two tuners that do not have access to the same channel line up.



> That said, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to record from cable + OTA --- the HDTV DirecTivo can do this, and the Series3 uses a much newer version of the software.


I've never had a DirecTiVo but I don't understand why the tuners would be asymetric. I would think that both tuners would have access to the same channel lineups so they wouldn't be asymetric.

It would be a cool feature but I haven't seen anything which indicates that it will have it and I have been looking for it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Tivo did say at CES that the box would seamlessly integrate analog and digital channels from cable. There is no press release, but TivoPony said it plenty of times.



> It would require dual asymetric tuning. i.e. the ability to resolve conflicts between two tuners that do not have access to the same channel line up.


How do you figure? It's the same input and the same channel lineup. Ever used a Tivo Series2 with digital cable? You get the entire channel lineup, just recorded via line input. The Broadcom chip in the Series3 decodes both NTSC and OpenCable QAM depending on the source stream, just like the DVR from your cable company. The Series3 doesn't have to know whether a particular channel is analog or digital, SD or HD -- all it does is feed the cable signal to the Broadcom and it does the rest. The Broadcom chipset integrates M[email protected] encoders; they are no longer separate chips as they were on the original Series2.

The only functionality that isn't integrated onto a single chip is the ATSC tuning -- that requires two external 8-VSB tuners connected over a PCI bus. However, the DirecTivo HDTV -- which Tivo wrote the software for -- is designed the same way and integrates HDTV locals from an antenna and satellite content into a single guide, and can record from both sources simultaneously.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Larry in TN said:


> It would require dual asymetric tuning. i.e. the ability to resolve conflicts between two tuners that do not have access to the same channel line up.


[Other objections noted...] And even if it did, that's already in the Series 2 DT, so I don't see the problem. The Series 3 software will certainly not be less capable than the Series 2 DT software.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> How do you figure? It's the same input and the same channel lineup. Ever used a Tivo Series2 with digital cable? You get the entire channel lineup, just recorded via line input.


Without a CableCard installed, the S3 would be able to record two unencrypted QAM channels (or OTA, etc.). Anything encrypted (even though it's in the channel lineup) would be inaccessible...

With a single CableCard, you have access to one encrypted channel at a time, but with asymmetric tuner support, you could still record another non-encrypted channel. Example - record HBO (encrypted) and ESPN at the same time, but *NOT* HBO and Showtime...

Obviously, with 2 CableCards (or multistream support), you can record any 2 shows you want...

Jeff


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

headless chicken said:


> I'm about to buy a plasma TV, but the model I purchase may depend on the features of the upcoming Series3 TiVo. For example, one TV I'm considering has a CableCard slot, while another does not.
> 
> Since I'm relatively uninformed, I'd appreciate it if somene could answer some questions I have...
> 
> ...


my opinion-

screw the cablecard in the TV- first it will only be one way so it wont work for VOD, the guide, ppv, switched video or interactive stuff anywahy.

Second- if you dont wind up with tivo- the cable company dvr's are cheap. They might not be as feature packed but for a few more bucks a month you can get a DVR so why not. Any DVR makes the cablecard slot in the TV not so important...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Ba Boop said:


> A little off topic but why would anyone buy a plasma tv? Life span claims are just that, claims. Everyone I know that bought the first ones and every bar that has them have all degraded in picture and most bars have replaced them. I guess if money is no object I'd get one too. LCD is a proven workhorse display. What am I missing?


that is an interesting point.

I have an LCD RPTV from panasonic.

All they say about the bulb is it works "up to 10,000 hours"- they will only warrenty the first bulb for 18months and replacements for 12 months (and they cost about 300!).

Mine just died after about 5,000 hours.

Luckily for once i picked up the extended warrenty. I never buy them but the tv was like a months take home pay at the time so i figured it was worth some peace of mind. Turns out the extended warrenty paid for iteself....

SO the plasma people can say they last 12 years of normal use but if people haven't really had them for more then 4-5 years who knows....


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> How do you figure?


I figure because if the software doesn't support keeping track of separate lists of available channels for each tuner then it won't work.

Dual asymmetric tuners was a new feature in the S2DT. If the S3 will have that ability then why wasn't it mentioned at CES? I don't know. Many seem to be assuming that it will have it but is there anything out there that says that it will?

One reason why they may not have built that ability into the S3 is that once the multi-stream CableCARDs come out it won't be needed. You'll just put in a multi-stream card instead.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> my opinion-
> 
> screw the cablecard in the TV- first it will only be one way so it wont work for VOD, the guide, ppv, switched video or interactive stuff anywahy.
> 
> Second- if you dont wind up with tivo- the cable company dvr's are cheap. They might not be as feature packed but for a few more bucks a month you can get a DVR so why not. Any DVR makes the cablecard slot in the TV not so important...


I'd not be so hasty in saying 'screw the cablecard in the TV'

It's nice to have when your dual tuner is recording two programs while you're wanting to watch a third (happens way to often) For an extra $2/mo I'm all for having it. The other features you'll have to get with your Cable Co's DVR/STB in the first place (at least until CableCARD 2.0 comes out and if it gets supported correctly - Not convience of it yet.) I use my Sony DHG-HDD500 mainly for this purpose as my SA8300HD is recording two programs simulatenously way too often especially when MNF is around (my TV doesn't have an ATSC tuner)

CCourtney


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

Larry in TN said:


> I figure because if the software doesn't support keeping track of separate lists of available channels for each tuner then it won't work.


What are you trying to say? There is a list of available channels for the analog/digital cable input, the ATSC input and the NTSC tuner wouldn't have a list unless there is a scan function. There are two of each type of tuner. The available channels for Cable1 and Cable2 are the same (remember the cablecard just decrypts - doesn't contain a tuner). The channels for NTSC1 and NTSC2 are the same. The channels for ATSC1 and ATSC2 are the same. There are three sets of dual asymmetric tuners - only 2 of the 6 are active at a time in any mix.



Larry in TN said:


> Dual asymmetric tuners was a new feature in the S2DT. If the S3 will have that ability then why wasn't it mentioned at CES? I don't know. Many seem to be assuming that it will have it but is there anything out there that says that it will?


Actually the DirecTV Series 1 TiVo was the first to have what you are calling dual asymmetric tuners. The DirecTV Series 2 TiVo also has what you are calling dual asymmetric tuners. The DirecTV HD TiVo also has what you are calling dual asymmetric tuners. How is the Series 2 DT model the first?

Based on the fact that the Series 3 supports 6 tuners with any 2 active at a time means they are what you call dual asymmetric tuners. Any two of the six active at a time recording different programs.



Larry in TN said:


> One reason why they may not have built that ability into the S3 is that once the multi-stream CableCARDs come out it won't be needed. You'll just put in a multi-stream card instead.


The fact that there is a single or multi-stream cablecard has nothing to do with it. If the box doesn't have two tuners, it can't record two programs at the same time. CableCards don't have tuners - just the decryption algorithms. That's all they are - period. They are decryption "keys" in the form of a plug in card. You could put two single stream cablecards in any box or one multi-stream cablecard in any box and if it didn't have two tuners it would still only use one stream off of the multi-stream card.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

I don't think that we're talking about the same thing.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Tivo already said publicly at CES that the Series3 could record from any two of the six tuners at once, so I'm not sure why we are having this line of discussion.


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

Larry in TN said:


> I don't think that we're talking about the same thing.


Then what are you talking about?

There will be 2 analog/digital cable tuners, 2 NTSC (analog OTA) and 2 ATSC (digital OTA) tuners in the Series 3. Each analog/digital cable tuner supports a CableCard for the encryption (or a single multistream CableCard will service both). ANY two of the tuners can be active at a time.

What is the problem? It has far more capability than the S2DT.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

You were saying that the S1 and S2 DirecTivos have asymmetric tuners, which isn't so -- the channel lineups are identical on both.

But given that Tivo said that one can record from any two of the inputs on the S3, asymmetric tuners are a given.


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Ok, I'm seeing a bunch of 'Dual Asymmetric Tuner' posts so I'm going to put down my understanding based on what was released at CES.

S3 Tuners

2 - ATSC
2 - NTSC
2 - Analog Cable
2 - Digital Cable

You can mix and match any combination you like w/o issue. You can record 2 - ATSC programs simulatenously, 2 - NTSC, 2 Analog Cable, 2 Digital Cable (Assume not Encyrpted or you have Two CableCARDs) or any combination of the One Type and Another Type. This is a Symmetrical System, that has been stated can operated Asymmetrically wrt to Tuners. THIS WAS STATED AT CES.

The only question is how does the system react when you only have a single CableCARD. 

This is a SW issue not a HW issue, any halfway intellegent system would use the tuner w/ the CableCARD to record encyrpted channels.

That said, anybody willing to spend the money for this equipment should be willing to cough up another $2/mo for a second CableCARD.

What else is there to say about it?

CCourtney


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

CCourtney said:


> This is a SW issue not a HW issue, any halfway intellegent system would use the tuner w/ the CableCARD to record encyrpted channels.


Yes, but until the dual tuner standalone TiVo came out we'd never seen such a system implemented by TiVo.

Admittedly there wasn't a lot of opportunity to demonstrate it, but for example the hardware of the HR10-250 DirecTV High Definition TiVo is capable of recording from digital OTA (antenna) or direcTV satellite. There is no hardware reason that it shouldn't be able to record an OTA show and a satellite show simultaneously with only one satellite input. But the software didn't support it. If you wanted two tuners enabled they both had to have satellite and OTA inputs.

There is some additional complication in the scheduling software to track which of two dissimilar tuners (asymmetric tuners) are available. And it is more confusing the end users to explain why they can only sometimes record two shows at once.
And so people speculated that TiVo wasn't going to deal with the hassle, even when their hardware could support the configuration.
But now they've already tackled the problem, so the S3 will likely work just like the SA DT and have the software to handle the asymmetrical tuners.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> The only question is how does the system react when you only have a single CableCARD.


Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. We don't know if it will support that functionality or not. Everyone assumes that it will but TiVo's never said that it will.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

Larry in TN said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. We don't know if it will support that functionality or not. Everyone assumes that it will but TiVo's never said that it will.


Ok, but since TiVo's current product (S2DT) support that functionality, it's very reasonable to assume that the next-generation, more expensive, higher functionality product would do it. Especially since there's an obvious need for it in the design (because it requires 2 CableCards or Multistream).

Also, the fact that TiVo hasn't explicitly stated this means nothing. This is a detailed feature that takes too long to explain in pre-release announcements. I wouldn't worry about it...

Jeff


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Ok, I can see that perspective. I've assumed I would either get a Multi-stream card or two single stream cards. I'm not going to restrict myself from potentially recording two Encrypted programs simulatenously (let alone the potential of having an issue w/ a non-encrypted/decrypted-asymmetric tuner issue.)

CCourtney


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> I'd not be so hasty in saying 'screw the cablecard in the TV'
> 
> It's nice to have when your dual tuner is recording two programs while you're wanting to watch a third (happens way to often) For an extra $2/mo I'm all for having it. The other features you'll have to get with your Cable Co's DVR/STB in the first place (at least until CableCARD 2.0 comes out and if it gets supported correctly - Not convience of it yet.) I use my Sony DHG-HDD500 mainly for this purpose as my SA8300HD is recording two programs simulatenously way too often especially when MNF is around (my TV doesn't have an ATSC tuner)
> 
> CCourtney


good points- but I'd just get 2 series 3 tivos and watch one while they record 3- LOL


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> good points- but I'd just get 2 series 3 tivos and watch one while they record 3- LOL


Yes, there's always something better if you want to pay more money 

I'm just glad Tweeter closed out the Sony DHG-HDD500 in Jan/Feb '06 timeframe so I got it for only $249 so I can record 3 shows simulatenously (and watch a third pre-recorded.) I've yet to find more than 3 things on at once that I want to watch.

Two S3's sounds like a nice idea. But the spousal unit would be a hard sell at that price.

CCourtney


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

CCourtney said:


> Yes, there's always something better if you want to pay more money
> 
> I'm just glad Tweeter closed out the Sony DHG-HDD500 in Jan/Feb '06 timeframe so I got it for only $249 so I can record 3 shows simulatenously (and watch a third pre-recorded.) I've yet to find more than 3 things on at once that I want to watch.
> 
> ...


at first I was bummed I could probably only aford one, but once i sat down with a spreadsheet (needed to tally all the friggin extra fees from DBS and cable)- I was pleasantly surprised to find out I'll save over $600 bucks the first year by moving to cable for triple play- even adding in paying monthly tivo fees. Assuming TiVo doesn't price the things at $800 bucks that should make a nice down payment for a pair of S3's.... Subsequent years It's only about $15 a month savings but If Tivo can pull of the magic $399 price point I about break even in 2 years~


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

all these posts about asymetric has me wondering...

I cant find the post with the broadcom spec fo rthe Series3 chip but i thought when i read it that the spec sheet that it said the chip can handle up to 6 streams at once. Someone posted earlier that the chip has 2 htsc/cable tuners built in and that the ATSC tuners are external via a pci bus. If all that is true and they can whip out asymetric algorithms so easily then why not allow it to record 2 from ntsc/analog cable/digital cable built in tuners AND 2 from the ATSC tuners. 

wouldn't that be cool?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bkdtv posted the lin kto the spec sheet earier in this thread here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4288245&&#post4288245

reread it and it says:

"the mpeg-2 dvd-compliant transport stream/PES parser and demultiplexer is cabable of simultaneously processing 256 PIDS via 128 PID channels in up to six independant extrenal transport stream inputs and four internal playback channels..... the data transport module can be configured to support *eight* record channels for PVR functionality and six AV channels to interface to audio and video decoders"

can someone translate that into english for me?


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

jautor said:


> it's very reasonable to assume that the next-generation, more expensive, higher functionality product would do it. Especially since there's an obvious need for it in the design (because it requires 2 CableCards or Multistream).


But that's exactly why they might have left it out. If you have a multi-stream card, or two single-stream cards, then you have no need for the ability to use dual asymmetric tuners. Either case gives you full functionality so why spend extra time and money to handle asymmetric tuners in cases where there's only one single-stream card?


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## davidjplatt (Aug 27, 2003)

Larry in TN said:


> But that's exactly why they might have left it out. If you have a multi-stream card, or two single-stream cards, then you have no need for the ability to use dual asymmetric tuners. Either case gives you full functionality so why spend extra time and money to handle asymmetric tuners in cases where there's only one single-stream card?


If your description of assymetric tuners is accurate, then the HD DirecTiVo had assymetric tuners (4 of them - 2 sat and 2 OTA). I find it hard to believe that the Series 3 wouldn't have the abilities of the HD DirecTiVo and the S2DT. They have already stated that the Series 3 will support any two of the six tuners at any one time. That then fits your definition of assymetric tuners.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Larry in TN said:


> But that's exactly why they might have left it out. If you have a multi-stream card, or two single-stream cards, then you have no need for the ability to use dual asymmetric tuners. Either case gives you full functionality so why spend extra time and money to handle asymmetric tuners in cases where there's only one single-stream card?


What if you also want to record ATSC? There are all sorts of reasons to believe this functionality will be there, and not many to suggest it won't.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

cheer said:


> What if you also want to record ATSC? There are all sorts of reasons to believe this functionality will be there, and not many to suggest it won't.


That's all I want the S3 to do, record OTA ATSC HD programming.

I could care less about Cable Cards, NTSC or Basic unscrambled cable.

I want to be able to record The Unit, Veronica Mars and Standoff all in HD at the same time.
I want to be able to record The Nine, CSI:NY, Kidnapped and the last 4 minutes of Lost at the same time in HD.

I want to be able to say "Recording Conflict? what might that be?"

I want to be able to do this when the above programs start this season.

Is that too much to ask?

phox


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## CCourtney (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, the S3 will be able to record 2 ATSC programs simulatenously. Only extra equipment you'll need is a UHF/VHF Antenna.

CCourtney


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> all these posts about asymetric has me wondering...
> 
> I cant find the post with the broadcom spec fo rthe Series3 chip but i thought when i read it that the spec sheet that it said the chip can handle up to 6 streams at once. Someone posted earlier that the chip has 2 htsc/cable tuners built in and that the ATSC tuners are external via a pci bus. If all that is true and they can whip out asymetric algorithms so easily then why not allow it to record 2 from ntsc/analog cable/digital cable built in tuners AND 2 from the ATSC tuners.
> 
> wouldn't that be cool?


Hmmm.. 19.39 megbits per second for HD stream, * 4= 77.56 megabits per second. Should be feasible...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

For me, it needs to be able to record The Unit and Veronica Mars, but also Deadwood and The Wire, so that means CableCard, and I'm not sure I'm willing to take that risk without some serious assurances from TiVo.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

davidjplatt said:


> If your description of assymetric tuners is accurate, then the HD DirecTiVo had assymetric tuners


Others are saying that it did not. I think you're misunderstand what dual asymmetric tuners means.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

cheer said:


> What if you also want to record ATSC?


If only one single-stream CableCARD is installed then the box would have to be able to keep track of the extra channels that one of the two tuners was capable of recording and it would have to allocate jobs so as to avoid a situation where the one tuner with access to the CableCARD was recording from a non-encrypted channel when a recording from an encrypted channel was scheduled. Without that ability the box might default to single-tuner operation when only one single-stream card is installed.

My guess is that they won't have the ability to do asymmetric tuners because adding a second cable card, or using a multi-stream card, elminates the need for it. Additionally, the didn't specifically say that it would do it at CES. If it could, I think that it would have been mentioned.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Larry in TN said:


> If only one single-stream CableCARD is installed then the box would have to be able to keep track of the extra channels that one of the two tuners was capable of recording and it would have to allocate jobs so as to avoid a situation where the one tuner with access to the CableCARD was recording from a non-encrypted channel when a recording from an encrypted channel was scheduled. Without that ability the box might default to single-tuner operation when only one single-stream card is installed.


And since the S2 DT does this (well, not encrypted, but allows you to connect a digital cable box to one input and an analog cable to another) just fine, I can't imagine the S3 NOT doing it.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

cheer said:


> And since the S2 DT does this (well, not encrypted, but allows you to connect a digital cable box to one input and an analog cable to another) just fine, I can't imagine the S3 NOT doing it.


I do not think the series 3 will have an mpeg encoder. So it will not be able to do analog cable.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

cheer said:


> And since the S2 DT does this (well, not encrypted, but allows you to connect a digital cable box to one input and an analog cable to another) just fine, I can't imagine the S3 NOT doing it.


The S2DT doesn't have the option of adding a second STB (i.e. CableCARD) to avoid the need for the asymmetrical tuner ability, the S3 does.

I guess we'll know soon enough...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

rminsk said:


> I do not think the series 3 will have an mpeg encoder. So it will not be able to do analog cable.


it will have mpeg encoders.

TO be called cablecard it must have analog capability.

Tivo has said publically repeadedly that it will record analog cable.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

rminsk said:


> I do not think the series 3 will have an mpeg encoder. So it will not be able to do analog cable.


No, it certainly does analog (NTSC) cable, analog (NTSC) from an antenna, digital (ATSC) from an antenna and unencrypted digital (QAM) from cable in addition to the encrypted digital cable through the use of CableCARDs.

The only things that it won't do are satellite or cable set-top boxes.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> it will have mpeg encoders.
> 
> TO be called cablecard it must have analog capability.
> 
> Tivo has said publically repeadedly that it will record analog cable.


bkdtv posted chip specsheet here :
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4288245&&#post4288245

shows dual encoders...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Not really sure one way or the other but i think asymetrical tuner banks is not a given. If they can go assymetrical at all why stop at 2? Why not decouple the ATSC tuners (external via PCI bus apparently) from the cablecard tuners (built in to the main chip) and have 4 asymetric tuners? I think I read the dish 622 can do 2 sat and one atsc- since they are apparently using tivo's system (couldn't help myself-LOL) I dont see why tivo couldn't pull of 3 or 4 tuners...

anyhow that said the cablecard install guide submitted in the FCC filing here:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518400258

is written in such a manner that 2 cards are assumed. It says first and second card. Once you install the first card step #8 says "insert the second cablecard decoder into slot 2 and repeat.." 
It doesn't say "if you have a second card"

(I can deflate my own logic becasue it doesn't say "if you have a single M-card" either....)

I'm actually kind of surprised it doesn't have these 3 choices:
-2 single cards
-1 single card
-1 multstream card.

at a minimum they should have the multistream option on the install guide- no?


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

MichaelK said:


> I'm actually kind of surprised it doesn't have these 3 choices:
> -2 single cards
> -1 single card
> -1 multstream card.
> ...


Probably not since they aren't "in the wild" yet... But talking to them at CES way back in January, they're ready for multistream whenever the cable guys get it done... So, yes, those three options *will* be available - someday! 

Jeff


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

HDbeat posted a few Series3 beta screenshots

Series 3 Tivo in the wild


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Larry in TN said:


> The S2DT doesn't have the option of adding a second STB (i.e. CableCARD) to avoid the need for the asymmetrical tuner ability, the S3 does.


That's just silly. You'll need asymmetric tuners to do ATSC and QAM; you'll need asymmetric tuners to do NTSC and QAM. Why they'd SPECIFICALLY drop the ability to do asymmetric encrypted/unencrypted QAM just because you can get two cablecards is beyond me.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> HDbeat posted a few Series3 beta screenshots
> 
> Series 3 Tivo in the wild


Thanks for link... intresting in many ways...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

One quote from HDBeat's bit on the Series3 beta.



> *the Series 3 seems to be very speedy, but TiVoToGo is not on yet. It does have HME functionality...*


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

bkdtv said:


> One quote from HDBeat's bit on the Series3 beta.


They also said that it took 4 Cable Cards, and 3 trips from the cable-guy...
Hence why Betas are done...


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

rminsk said:


> I do not think the series 3 will have an mpeg encoder. So it will not be able to do analog cable.


Source?? Or did you just make that up??


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Source?? Or did you just make that up??


He made it up. The Series3 just does not have composite or s-video *inputs*.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

cheer said:


> That's just silly. You'll need asymmetric tuners to do ATSC and QAM; you'll need asymmetric tuners to do NTSC and QAM.


I think you are using a different definition of asymmetric tuner than most of the people on this thread.

It isn't that the tuners are really asymmetric, it's that the channel lineup for the (virtual) tuner 1 is different than the channel lineup for (virtual) tuner 2.

The TiVo user interface acts like there are only two tuners, even when there are more physical input source.
S2 DT: Three input sources, two internal cable tuners, plus the a/v input from the cable box.
HD10-250: Four input sources, two internal ATSC tuners, two Satellite tuners
S3: Six input sources, two NTSC tuners, two ATSC tuners, two QAM tuners.

In the HD10-250 there is only one combined channel line-up. 
The TiVo UI (and scheduler) act like it actually has only two tuners, each of which can record any channel from either ATSC or Satellite. Because of that the scheduler doesn't have to worry about which tuner is free when it wants to schedule a recording.
This setup is referred to as "symmetrical tuners" because the tuner (groups) have symmetrical channel lineups.
(The HD10-250 cannot be configured with only three of the four tuners active. If you could that would generate an asymmetrical tuner configuration).

In the S2 DT (when used with an external box) there are two channel line-ups. 
The box and the (no box) cable line-up. The scheduler needs to be aware of that because many channels will only be available on the box, so it needs to try to use the (no box) cable input as much as possible to keep the box free to record things only the box can record. This leads to situations where you want to record two things but can't because they are both on box only channels.
This setup is referred to as "asymmetrical tuners" because the tuner (groups) have asymmetrical channel lineups, not all channels are available to both active tuners.

In the S2 DT when used without a cable box the tuners would be symmetrical.

In the S3 if used with no cable card, 1 multistream card, or 2 single stream cards the tuners would be symmetrical because each tuner group (1 ATSC + 1 NTSC + 1 QAM) has equal access to all the channels. 
In the no cable card scenario neither QAM tuner can access encrypted channels; so they have identical access. In the other scenarios both QAM tuners can access encrypted channels simultaneously, so they still have identical access.

In a 1 single stream card setup the S3 has asymmetrical tuners, because only one of the QAM tuners can access an encrypted channel. So the scheduling engine has to be aware of that limitation.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Thanks for link... intresting in many ways...


But really nothing new that we haven't heard or already seen. And it's a COMPLETE lack of integrity to break the NDA.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> But really nothing new that we haven't heard or already seen. And it's a COMPLETE lack of integrity to break the NDA.


Big time... I can already imagine the nasty gram that got sent out this morning.....


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

cheer said:


> You'll need asymmetric tuners to do ATSC and QAM; you'll need asymmetric tuners to do NTSC and QAM.


No, you don't. As long as both tuners have access to the same total lineup (NTSC+ATSC+QAM+CC) then the two tuners are not asymmetrical. The problem comes in only when one or the two tuners does not have access to all of the channels that the other tuner can tune.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Larry in TN said:


> No, you don't. As long as both tuners have access to the same total lineup (NTSC+ATSC+QAM+CC) then the two tuners are not asymmetrical. The problem comes in only when one or the two tuners does not have access to all of the channels that the other tuner can tune.


I think we're blurring the lines between recording tuners and inputs, perhaps.

S3 has the following valid input sources (up to 2 of each): NTSC, ATSC, unencrypted QAM, encrypted QAM w/cablecard (only 2 total QAM sources). The S3 has to keep track of the channel lineups for each input separately, since they differ. So long as the S3 treats the unencrypted QAM and cablecard QAM lineups as separate, it's no different than managing the difference between, say, NTSC and ATSC.

For Tivo to limit this functionality ONLY BETWEEN THE TWO TYPES OF QAM SOURCES, despite the S2DT NOT having this limitation, simply because one could get a second CC or multistream CC, would be pointless. And, IMO, no easier to code or implement.

Obviously we won't know for sure until it's released, but I'll seriously bet any taker an S3 Tivo that this will be doable (meaning loser buys winner an S3 -- no service fees involved in the wager).


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> I think you are using a different definition of asymmetric tuner than most of the people on this thread.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> In a 1 single stream card setup the S3 has asymmetrical tuners, because only one of the QAM tuners can access an encrypted channel. So the scheduling engine has to be aware of that limitation.


Yeah I think there's a terminology thing going on here, but from a coding standpoint it would be trivial beyond belief to treat a "QAM-w-CC" input as different from a "QAM-w/o-CC" input source.

I really, really can't see this being an issue.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

cheer said:


> I think we're blurring the lines between recording tuners and inputs, perhaps.
> 
> S3 has the following valid input sources (up to 2 of each): NTSC, ATSC, unencrypted QAM, encrypted QAM w/cablecard (only 2 total QAM sources). The S3 has to keep track of the channel lineups for each input separately, since they differ. So long as the S3 treats the unencrypted QAM and cablecard QAM lineups as separate, it's no different than managing the difference between, say, NTSC and ATSC.
> 
> For Tivo to limit this functionality ONLY BETWEEN THE TWO TYPES OF QAM SOURCES, despite the S2DT NOT having this limitation, simply because one could get a second CC or multistream CC, would be pointless. And, IMO, no easier to code or implement.


If TiVo made the S3 work the same way the H10-250 works then you wouldn't have the choice of selecting "enable 5 out of 6 tuners" and dealing with the resulting asymmetric lineup issue.

The H10-250, although it has 4 tuners, has a setup that allows you to configure "1 Tuner" or "2 Tuners" operation. If you want "2 Tuners" enabled you must have satellite on both tuners.

_If_ the S3 works the same way (and I now doubt that it will) it would also have a setup for "1 Tuner" or "2 Tuners". To select "2 Tuners" you would need to have the ability to decrypt zero or two QAM signals. But if you select "1 Tuner" the S3 would only be able to record 1 show at a time, despite having unused physical tuners free.

Given that we've seen that the S2 DT works pretty well with one tuner able to get more channels than the other, I would hope the S3 works the same. But there was no hardware reason that the H10-250 couldn't support 1 Sat + 2 ATSC, but the software wasn't written to do it. (Although in that case it might have had more to do with the contract between TiVo and DirecTV).


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

Jonathan_S said:


> Given that we've seen that the S2 DT works pretty well with one tuner able to get more channels than the other, I would hope the S3 works the same. But there was no hardware reason that the H10-250 couldn't support 1 Sat + 2 ATSC, but the software wasn't written to do it. (Although in that case it might have had more to do with the contract between TiVo and DirecTV).


I wouldn't doubt it at all. But remember too that the HR10-250 is a whole lot older than the S2 DT.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

cheer said:


> I'll seriously bet any taker an S3 Tivo that this will be doable (meaning loser buys winner an S3 -- no service fees involved in the wager).


Really? Very tempting but I'm afraid that I can only go as high as a 25¢ wager.


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## davecramer74 (Mar 17, 2006)

I just called and inquited about this unit. They told me it will be available in october. I am trying to decide if i want to go back to directv (their unit is available to me next month and already available in Los angeles). Im tired of paying comcrap so much money for theirs.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

cheer said:


> Obviously we won't know for sure until it's released, but I'll seriously bet any taker an S3 Tivo that this will be doable (meaning loser buys winner an S3 -- no service fees involved in the wager).


On the TiVo.com web site just today, a CableCARD FAQ which includes the following...

_remember in order to enable dual tuning capabilities your TiVo Series3 HD will require two (2) CableCARDs._​


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## coderus (Apr 4, 2001)

Does anybody know if there is any news if the Series3 can be used in Europe ? or in the UK where we had the Series1 models. As I would love to have an updated model now.

I'm foolishly thinking they can do a single unit for all market's ? universal power, PAL & NTSC support - would be great.


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## naclone (Feb 12, 2002)

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp


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## pac1999 (Jun 29, 2006)

The TWC in San Diego says that their cablecard will not support NBA League Pass or other sports packages. Has anyone else heard this? It does not seem like a pay per view service. You pay once and you get all the NBA channels just as if you were getting HBO or another premium service. 

Does anyone know if other cable companies allow you to watch NBA league pass with cablecard?


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## jeffrypennock (May 18, 2006)

pac1999 said:


> The TWC in San Diego says that their cablecard will not support NBA League Pass or other sports packages. Has anyone else heard this? It does not seem like a pay per view service. You pay once and you get all the NBA channels just as if you were getting HBO or another premium service.
> 
> Does anyone know if other cable companies allow you to watch NBA league pass with cablecard?


I heartd the same thing from TWC Houston regarding the MLS sports package.


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## painkiller (Jun 23, 2005)

There is apparently a message thread on the VideoHelp site that seems to think the S3 is coming out September 17th.

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=307962

For whatever that's worth.

(Would anyone believe a Best Buy worker?)

[Edit: Apparently this is being discussed on another thread that I didn't see before this post of mine. Sorry.]


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

painkiller said:


> There is apparently a message thread on the VideoHelp site that seems to think the S3 is coming out September 17th.
> 
> http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=307962
> 
> ...


And "confirmed" by another BB "employee".


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Latest news is that Best Buy lists their cost in the system as about $500. That leaves room for discounts off the $799 MSRP.


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## Duke (May 6, 2000)

Maybe I missed this somewhere in this thread, but can the S3 record two channels and allow you to watch a third channel live (from the assortment of 6 tuners)?

Duke


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Duke said:


> Maybe I missed this somewhere in this thread, but can the S3 record two channels and allow you to watch a third channel live (from the assortment of 6 tuners)?
> 
> Duke


No. You CAN watch a previously-recorded show while recording two others.


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