# With the new Daylight Saving Time dates in 2007...



## disco (Mar 27, 2000)

...how will my TiVo know when to change the time?? Is it worked into the code automatically, or does DirecTV send a signal to change the time??

Just curious as I have to 6.2 hacked DirecTiVo units that I hopefully won't have to re-hack come 2007...


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## ClemSole (Nov 12, 2004)

My guess is. If you hacked it you will have to fix it yourself, normal units will get a software patch to update to the new time changes.


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## willardcpa (Feb 23, 2001)

Fuhget bout it. Dtv will automatically chang the time for you, even if its hacked. You didn't see all of the "hacked box" owners scrambling to figure out how to change the time on their boxes last april did you? I've got five that are hacked and never had a problem with DST on em.


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## disco (Mar 27, 2000)

willardcpa said:


> You didn't see all of the "hacked box" owners scrambling to figure out how to change the time on their boxes last april did you? I've got five that are hacked and never had a problem with DST on em.


Yeah, but the dates for DST change in 2007, and I was curious as to if the box changed time according to a calendar date in the coding, or if it was signaled to change from D*.


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## WillowTheDog (Oct 14, 2003)

Maybe someone else can confirm this, but I would assume that the box gets the current time via the satellite along with the guide data. So regardless of when DST occurs, the satellite data should cause the time to change on your box. No software update or phone call required.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The box gets a refresh signal to make sure the clock is always accurate.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't know for sure, but I think it's more likely that the time coming over the satellite is UTC and that the conversion to local time (including any seasonal changes) would be done by the software in the box (possibly even as a Linux system call, which would require a kernel change).


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

ping said:


> would be done by the software in the box (possibly even as a Linux system call, which would require a kernel change).


It would not require a kernel change. The conversion to local time in linux is done with rules in a timezone file (tzfile). Only a new tzfile would be needed.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

I stand corrected (of course that's the right way to do it). Still, unless arbitrary files can be replaced (which may be possible but I don't know), the ordinary end user will possibly experience something that looks just like a software update, and hackers will need to edit this file manually. Assuming this is the method TiVo uses for DST.


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## reliant76 (Feb 14, 2003)

Bumping this thread up...

Has anyone confirmed how DirecTivo units will be updated to the new dates for Daylight Saving Time? (FYI, DST in NA now begins on the 2nd Sunday in March and ends the first Sunday in November, March 11 and November 4th).


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

rminsk said:


> It would not require a kernel change. The conversion to local time in linux is done with rules in a timezone file (tzfile). Only a new tzfile would be needed.


Exactly correct.

The time on the satellite data stream is in UTC.

The DirecTiVo uses the tzfile to determine what the local time is, including seasonal (DST) changes.

The DirecTiVos will unquestionably need new tzfiles.

It's *conceivable* that they can download the new tzfiles in the form of "data" as opposed to an actual version change. (On a Linux computer these files are quasi-human-readable and on-the-fly editable.) If they can do this, they can implement the change without any observable software version rev.


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## jonbig (Sep 22, 2003)

There's also a question of whether the software uses the tzfile for DST calculations or whether it gets information from the satellite stream.


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## mwarner (Dec 12, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> The DirecTiVos will unquestionably need new tzfiles.


Why do I suddenly have a bad feeling about this? I wonder if DirecTV will even remember they need to do this for our receivers. Or will all our recordings be off for a couple of weeks while they try to swap us all out with R15s?!?!?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Guys,

What happened when the DirecTivos in Indiana started observing DST for the first time last year?

Whatever that fix was, this will be the same fix.


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## doconeill (Dec 13, 2002)

My hacked units do not have tzfile anywhere. The closest file I can find is /busybox/mfs_tzoffset, which is a binary file. I bet this file needs to be replaced, and those with hacked units may need to replace it manually...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

mfs_tzoffset is not a standard TiVo file.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Oh hey, I remember asking this question already: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=324542

See the reply that I recevied... agrees with my gut feeling that it is all in the guide data, which would be the best possible method compared to having to worry about how to upgrade zillions of boxes should the DST rules ever change.

When they did Tivo/DTivo they "did it right". :up:


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

doconeill said:


> My hacked units do not have tzfile anywhere. The closest file I can find is /busybox/mfs_tzoffset, which is a binary file. I bet this file needs to be replaced, and those with hacked units may need to replace it manually...


That's it.

TiVo uses the busybox suite of system utilities, and that is BusyBox's tzfile. It is binary, IIRC.

I should have remembered this since I once designed a Cellular transceiver controller with embedded Linux, which used BusyBox and I had to create this file for it.

I suspect they have a way to push an updated version of this file over the satellite stream. If this is so, it means a full blown update will not be required, and also means that hacked boxes will probably get it.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

Just yet another reason why the government should stop doing DST. Just pick one or the other and LEAVE it alone!


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> That's it.
> 
> TiVo uses the busybox suite of system utilities, and that is BusyBox's tzfile. It is binary, IIRC.


Umm....no.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

whitepelican said:


> Umm....no.


The "Umm" makes me wonder if you're guessing. If not, care to elaborate?


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

Dkerr24 said:


> Just yet another reason why the government should stop doing DST. Just pick one or the other and LEAVE it alone!


Agreed. It's just doing something to make it look like they're doing something. We're not a nation of farmers like we were when Ben Franklin proposed it. Changing DST is supposed to save energy?? How does it save energy?


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

drew2k said:


> The "Umm" makes me wonder if you're guessing. If not, care to elaborate?


Sure. The file they are referencing "mfs_tzoffset" was simply part of the busybox package which most folks who have hacked units generally have installed on their boxes. It is not part of the standard Tivo software and has nothing to do with setting the time zone for the guide data in your Tivo. It is used only for the mfs_ftp software (insertion/extraction). And it isn't really even needed for mfs_ftp, as I believe it only allows you to display the time zone data stored in MFS. It is not even included anymore in the latest version of busybox (aka: AlphaWolf's All-in-one binaries), so the person who originally mentioned it must have an old version of busybox on their unit.

Doconeill, try running mfs_tzoffset once. It will simply display your timezone offset from GMT in seconds. Like so:


```
<Bedroom>/var/tmp: mfs_tzoffset
tzoffset is: -21600
```


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## SteelersFan (Sep 7, 2004)

Here's  a post from TivoJerry on the subject in another thread.


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## doconeill (Dec 13, 2002)

whitepelican said:


> Doconeill, try running mfs_tzoffset once. It will simply display your timezone offset from GMT in seconds. Like so:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Yup, that's exactly what it did. As far as an "old" version of busybox, these were from the latest Zipper installations at the time I worked on them, which was this past month.

My guess as to its purpose was based on it being the only thing on this disk that appeared timezone related. 

My current guess is that its internal to the TiVo software, and either nothing needs to be done, or there will be a fix and those of us with hacked units will be doing a lot of work soon...  Hopefully TivoJerry will be able to give us a clue soon...


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## Dayton-Dave (Jan 11, 2002)

When your D-Tivo calls home it updates the clock. Also it gets the time from DirecTV from the satellite. I don't think anyone needs to get really excited about this. Daylight Saving Time does not occur on the same date every year anyway. So there should be no problem this year. The only thing different is that it will start 4 weeks earlier than it did in 2006. Come 2 AM on 3/11/2007 your clock will automatically reset to 3 AM DST.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Dayton-Dave said:


> When your D-Tivo calls home it updates the clock. Also it gets the time from DirecTV from the satellite. I don't think anyone needs to get really excited about this. Daylight Saving Time does not occur on the same date every year anyway. So there should be no problem this year. The only thing different is that it will start 4 weeks earlier than it did in 2006. Come 2 AM on 3/11/2007 your clock will automatically reset to 3 AM DST.


The proble you could have is with creating a recording by time and channel. It has to convert from your local time to UTC time internally. The information in the phone call and satellite is just UTC time with no timezone information.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Dayton-Dave said:


> Daylight Saving Time does not occur on the same date every year anyway.


Not true. It has been the frist Sunday in April since 1966. Now it will be the second Sunday in March.

I'm not sure, but nothing anyone has said changes the idea that hackers might have a real problem.

Not for nothing, but, trying not to sound like a self-righteous non-hacker, I've always said that TiVos, unlike computers, are designed as "black boxes" and that you cannot be expecting Directv to anticipate your modifications and hacks in their sending out of signal.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

He said "same date", not "same day".

i.e. the first Sunday of each year is a different date than the previous year


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## reliant76 (Feb 14, 2003)

aristoBrat said:


> He said "same date", not "same day".
> 
> i.e. the first Sunday of each year is a different date than the previous year


Yes, but it is still a relative position that (usually) does not change, and can be easily calculated by any PC, including a Tivo. It only needs to know what that relative date is, which leads back to the original question: *How will my DirecTivo know that the day to begin DST has changed this year?* There does not seem to be a consensus here...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Your DTiVo will know because data coming from the satellite will send the UTC offset for each time zone.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

enthalpy said:


> Agreed. It's just doing something to make it look like they're doing something. We're not a nation of farmers like we were when Ben Franklin proposed it. Changing DST is supposed to save energy?? How does it save energy?


Don't be silly. DST serves a quality purpose especially for the construction industry by moving the start of the day more closely to daybreak.


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## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

stevel said:


> Your DTiVo will know because data coming from the satellite will send the UTC offset for each time zone.


So you mean this is not related to daily phone calls from the Tivo? I have not had my phone connected to my DirecTivo in months - will it be necessary to force a call to make sure my time is correct?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

catcard said:


> So you mean this is not related to daily phone calls from the Tivo? I have not had my phone connected to my DirecTivo in months - will it be necessary to force a call to make sure my time is correct?


No. The phone call does set the time but the DirecTiVo will reset the time to the average of the two transponder downlink times you are tuned too within about 5 minutes.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

catcard said:


> So you mean this is not related to daily phone calls from the Tivo?


That statement is (probably) true for a standalone Tivo, but with a DTivo current time info is always part of the satellite data stream and the DTivo operating system is designed to make use of it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bengalfreak said:


> Don't be silly. DST serves a quality purpose especially for the construction industry by moving the start of the day more closely to daybreak.


Yeah, cause they can't show up at 8am for part of the year and 7am for the other part.


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

reliant76 said:


> *How will my DirecTivo know that the day to begin DST has changed this year?*


*Because it's all in the datastream!* Jesus! You guys are making this into a huge, complicated mess.


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## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

Lord Vader said:


> *Because it's all in the datastream!* Jesus! You guys are making this into a huge, complicated mess.


My goodness someone is a bit grumpy!

We just want to make sure we don't have a problem with our Tivo and the DST change. I don' think it is such a big deal.... not all of us are tech gurus


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

Grumpy? What else would one expect of the Dark Side? Happiness and other such weaknesses are traits of the Jedi, not the Sith.


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## TVerBeek (Feb 6, 2004)

Dayton-Dave said:


> Daylight Saving Time does not occur on the same date every year anyway.


True, but most devices in the same intelligence class as a TiVo box calculate the appropriate date for the time change _internally_, which is why people are concerned that their TiVos will do likewise... and get it as wrong as their neighbor's poor old VCR or Windows 98 computer will.


Dayton-Dave said:


> Come 2 AM on 3/11/2007 your clock will automatically reset to 3 AM DST.


Which simply demonstrates that it's a conspiracy to make my birthday only 23 hours long this year.


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## reliant76 (Feb 14, 2003)

stevel said:


> Your DTiVo will know because data coming from the satellite will send the UTC offset for each time zone.


Are you saying that at the appropriate moment, the satellite will send instructions to change the offset? I assumed that the satellite sent UTC time and the Tivo sets the offset itself - why else ask what time zone it's in and if we observe DST?



Lord Vader said:


> Because it's all in the datastream! Jesus! You guys are making this into a huge, complicated mess.


You want messy? Look at what Microsoft is putting everyone through: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/dst_overview


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## Lord Vader (Aug 30, 2004)

That's different. That's Microsoft. Remember, the first time Microsoft makes something that DOESN'T suck, they'll call it a vacuum cleaner.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

reliant76 said:


> You want messy? Look at what Microsoft is putting everyone through: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/dst_overview


From the link provided:



> *Unless certain updates are applied to your computer,* it is possible that the time zone settings for your computer's system clock may be incorrect during this four week period.


Updating your computer is a mess??? Its called automatic updates, turn it on and fugetaboutit. Thats messy??? As a side effect to doing this so the clock works right, you will also help prevent your computer from becoming a zombie computer and spamming the rest of us.


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## reliant76 (Feb 14, 2003)

JWThiers said:


> From the link provided:
> Updating your computer is a mess??? Its called automatic updates, turn it on and fugetaboutit. Thats messy??? As a side effect to doing this so the clock works right, you will also help prevent your computer from becoming a zombie computer and spamming the rest of us.


Yup. I agree. As long as you're running the version of Windows MS wants you to be running. (And no, I'm not disagreeing with you that everyone SHOULD be, but in practice lots of people AREN'T.) Oh - and if you use Outlook, then there's something else you need to do. And oh yeah, Windows Mobile devices need attention too. And let's not even get started on an Enterprise level - Exchange, Sharepoint, etc? Not exactly easy. Not that Microsoft is to blame, but lots of users will be left who don't know that there even IS a potential problem, let alone how to fix it.


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