# V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?



## bunjicat

Thats right. Opened up a ticket for the V87 and the reply back was they don't support connections to switches. Only connections to routers. Yep, guess Tivo isn't aware that the LAN ports on the router IS a switch. In case you don't believe me here it is:

"A connection to a switch is not supported. If you would like to use an Ethernet connection for your TiVo Minis and Roamio you must have an Ethernet connection directly to the router, rather than to a switch or hub. If this is not a possible configuration, we recommend considering options for setting up a MoCA network in your home."

Tivo needs to know there is problem in order to fix it. If I can't get past the first level of support then Tivo has deeper problems then I thought.


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## htruong74

that's been the response I had since Roamio line was introduced. I also attempted to call in for the v87 on my mini last week and couldn't get pass 1st level support too. I also sent an email to [email protected] and I didn't get a response. so I am not able to provide any details to Tivo in any way possible to figure out if they can fix their bugs. I do believe this v87 is not 100% network related at all but no one at Tivo is listening.


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## bunjicat

Just curious. Are you running pyTivo?


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## Time_Slip

I have my Roamio Pro connected directly to the router along with 2 Tivo minis and a switch. The connection is lost 99% of the time when watching a recording that is being taped. Never do I lose the connection when watching previously recorded shows or live tv. I have complained for 6 months now with absolutely no solutions (customer support always plays dumb). Also I have a Roamio Basic connected through the switch, that loses the connection to the Pro just as often. I have a feeling the only solution is a hardware update. If it were possible, the software would have been fixed by now.


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## dianebrat

"not supported" doesn't mean you can't do it or it doesn't work, just that they won't troubleshoot problems with the added components in the network. This is very common in businesses like this to take weird customer configs out of the config process and isolate it to hardware as quickly as possible.

i.e. If in troubleshooting you start with it configured as requested and it still fails, they can work on finding the bad hardware. If you have it going through 3 additional switches, bridges, or double NAT'd routers one of those could be your root cause.


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## bunjicat

dianebrat said:


> .
> i.e. If in troubleshooting you start with it configured as requested and it still fails, they can work on finding the bad hardware. If you have it going through 3 additional switches, bridges, or double NAT'd routers one of those could be your root cause.


I get the process. But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does. The reply back was that I should be using MOCA. If you didn't want me to use the switch ports why put them on the device?


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## htruong74

Time_Slip said:


> I have my Roamio Pro connected directly to the router along with 2 Tivo minis and a switch. The connection is lost 99% of the time when watching a recording that is being taped. Never do I lose the connection when watching previously recorded shows or live tv. I have complained for 6 months now with absolutely no solutions (customer support always plays dumb). Also I have a Roamio Basic connected through the switch, that loses the connection to the Pro just as often. I have a feeling the only solution is a hardware update. If it were possible, the software would have been fixed by now.


Like your scenario, 99% of the time, my mini loses connection to my Tivo Roamio Basic on the show I am or was recording at the moment. Also, one time it was repeatedly constantly getting v87 on a recording that had bad static on the OTA recording. It would do a v87 every time I replay and fast forward to the point where it v87. I rebooted both my Tivo Roamio basic and Tivo Mini after 4 attempts of trying to finish viewing that show. On the fresh reboot, I replay the video and when I got to that time slice on the recording, I notice the static on the recording but it continue playing this time.

So I doubt the v87 is all network related after that incident and is a software bug on Tivo's end.


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## dianebrat

bunjicat said:


> I get the process. But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does. The reply back was that I should be using MOCA. If you didn't want me to use the switch ports why put them on the device?


Why would there be a process to escalate something they specifically don't want in the troubleshooting process? They're not network technicians, nor should they be, that's why they troubleshoot with a specific baseline config.


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## bunjicat

dianebrat said:


> Why would there be a process to escalate something they specifically don't want in the troubleshooting process?


So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.


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## CrispyCritter

If I had to guess, V87 is a general "signal is corrupted" (possibly expected length of a segment doesn't match actual length?) error that could be caused by the network, but also by something at a higher level.

My bet is this is the same error that has existed for many years when transferring shows from TiVo to PC via TiVo Desktop that have a bad spot in the recording. Transfers get interrupted and can't get past the bad spot in the recording. This sounds like htruong74's error and I could see a bug with show/segment length affecting shows that just finished recording.


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## dianebrat

bunjicat said:


> So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.


ARGH! you are not picking up what I'm putting down.. 

I"m saying that you wanted them to troubleshoot a network issue in a config they don't support


> But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does.


 in effect they're saying "hook the mini to the same router/switch you have the Roamio into OR use MoCA and we'll help you, but we don't troubleshoot when there's an additional switch in the mix. You can't escalate it just because you want them to troubleshoot a config they're already saying they won't troubleshoot. The fact that the tech doesn't know more hardcore networking just means they don't troubleshoot in that manner.

They're going off a script, they're not network engineers, and if you give them a config that's not on the "approved" list, they're going to say "we can't help until you get it in an approved config" Get it in an approved config and they'll take note of the V87 error and escalate if needed.


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## htruong74

dianebrat said:


> ARGH! you are not picking up what I'm putting down..
> 
> I"m saying that you wanted them to troubleshoot a network issue in a config they don't support in effect they're saying "hook the mini to the same router/switch you have the Roamio into OR use MoCA and we'll help you, but we don't troubleshoot when there's an additional switch in the mix. You can't escalate it just because you want them to troubleshoot a config they're already saying they won't troubleshoot. The fact that the tech doesn't know more hardcore networking just means they don't troubleshoot in that manner.
> 
> They're going off a script, they're not network engineers, and if you give them a config that's not on the "approved" list, they're going to say "we can't help until you get it in an approved config" Get it in an approved config and they'll take note of the V87 error and escalate if needed.


hi,

I just talk with someone from Tivo's 2nd level support team today. I gave the person all the 3 problems with the v87 encounters I had.

1. v87 and doesn't resume to last known position.
2. constant v87 while viewing a recorded show in progress.
3. possible v87 on bad recording.

But the final wrap up of the conversation was that a network switch between Tivo Roamio was not supported and that is the possibility of why I am getting all those v87 even though I told her about issue #2. The only supported configuration is:

1. Tivo's in a Moca config
2. Tivo Roamio can use Ethernet only if directly connected to another Tivo Mini Ethernet port.

So any kind Ethernet switch/router is not a supported config , even if it's the only switch between two Tivo's. So who knows if Tivo will look into this unless I can get a Moca setup and tell them I'm using purely Moca between the Tivo.


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## dianebrat

htruong74 said:


> 2. Tivo Roamio can use Ethernet only if directly connected to another Tivo Mini Ethernet port.





bunjicat said:


> *"A connection to a switch is not supported. If you would like to use an Ethernet connection for your TiVo Minis and Roamio you must have an Ethernet connection directly to the router, rather than to a switch or hub.* If this is not a possible configuration, we recommend considering options for setting up a MoCA network in your home."


Point #2 is incorrect, they will support ethernet connections where the Tivo AND the Mini are both connected to the same switch/router device and there are no other switches or routers in the setup.

They say this to prevent poorly implemented networks from leading them astray.

It's not going to kill anyone to rejigger their config for a bit to troubleshoot with their approved config and THEN you can get escalated.

I'm in IT, all my career I've had to deal with manufacturer techs that insist on a certain base config before troubleshooting an issue, this is nothing new and considering how convoluted a home network can be I can't blame Tivo for having a specific script.

I'm not saying you guys don't have issues, just that I get why Tivo won't troubleshoot certain configs.


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## bunjicat

If we are going to use strict definitions, then by plugging into a "router" the Tivo's wouldn't work at all. Routers route. Layer 3. A router is a device that forwards data packets between computer networks. So Tivo really wants me to connect the devices to a router? Of course they don't. They want me to use a switch. My point is Tivo doesn't really want to fix the problem, they want to obfuscate. If I (Tivo) never acknowledge the problems exists then there was never a problem to begin with.

I knew what Tivo's response would be before I ever submitted a V87 ticket. The V87 error seems random and doesn't affect everyone. It would be difficult to track down the source due to the variations in customer networks.
You can see from the other V87 error threads that tracking the issues can help people. I wish Tivo would realize that.


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## hefe

I have two TiVos, both on different switches, and have no trouble.


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## southerndoc

This seems to be a problem with green switches. I know it's not the ideal solution, but have you tried switching switches? You'll probably get a quicker fix doing that than by waiting on TiVo which has to accommodate all types of switches.


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## slowbiscuit

bunjicat said:


> If we are going to use strict definitions, then by plugging into a "router" the Tivo's wouldn't work at all. Routers route. Layer 3. A router is a device that forwards data packets between computer networks. So Tivo really wants me to connect the devices to a router? Of course they don't. They want me to use a switch.


This is a misleading answer, because a router is also a switch. I'm sure plenty of folks here only have one router in the house and everything's connected to it (for the few devices they have, you don't need an extra switch), and that's the config that Tivo wants to support. We can all disagree as to whether that makes sense but it is what it is, and the easy answer is to connect your Mini to the same switch (or router) as your Tivo before you call them. Or just use MoCA, or hook them up back-to-back if they insist on that. If the problem goes away when you do that, it's probably your network and not the Tivos.

I had a similar issue when I got my Plus - I had a Mini that was formerly paired to my old Elite and I attempted to unpair and repair it with my new Plus. The Mini insisted that I had no eligible DVRs to pair with and nothing I tried worked (including MoCA and a complete reset of the Mini) until I plugged the Mini into the same switch my Plus was on, and then after that I moved the Mini back downstairs (back to its original switch) and it's worked fine ever since. Go figure.


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## dianebrat

I get occasional drops on my mini, about once a month, but I'm using PNA to the Mini to a PNA on the basement ActionTec MoCA enabled router, and the signal from the Tivo Premiere is via Netgear GS-108 switch that is connected to the Roamio which acts as a bridge from MoCA to the media center.


I have no doubt if I tried troubleshooting a network issue Tivo wouldn't even answer the phone


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## lessd

dianebrat said:


> I get occasional drops on my mini, about once a month, but I'm using PNA to the Mini to a PNA on the basement ActionTec MoCA enabled router, and the signal from the Tivo Premiere is via Netgear GS-108 switch that is connected to the Roamio which acts as a bridge from MoCA to the media center.
> 
> I have no doubt if I tried troubleshooting a network issue Tivo wouldn't even answer the phone


A good switch tries to prevent collisions in the network data, if you are streaming on a few TVs using switches one may tie up the switch and delay some traffic, could be a problem for a TiVo network. The switch built into most routers is the good type that tries to avoid any traffic delay, at least that is how I understand it. I use my tandem switches for other home computers that would have no problem with small delays in network traffic when using the internet.


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## todd_j_derr

I get occasional V87s. I can't discern any real pattern but it does seem to happen more often during or after FF/REW.

I'm sure some people have messed up networks but it's a cop-out for Tivo to say they don't support switches. I also agree there are bugs or at least mis-features involved. Why does it give up so easily, and why does it do something so disruptive to your viewing? How many buttons do you have to push to get from V87 back to whatever you were watching (at least 3, right?) That assumes it didn't lose your place, which also happens fairly often. Even if there is some temporary network problem, why doesn't it throw up some sort of "buffering" indication and resume with no user interaction, like basically every other streaming video player in existence?

Networked devices should be as tolerant as possible of network disruptions.


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## Alf Tanner

That sounds like a load of crap, I have one mini behind a router and a switch, then a second mini behind a router and 2 additional switches, plus the Roamio Pro is behind a switch already in addition to the main router. I've never once had problems related to the switches. In another thread I posted what switches I'm using in case that helps anybody.


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## slowbiscuit

On the other hand, Tivo has had known issues with some green switches. It might be a load of crap but they don't want to deal with it even if their boxes are causing the problem.


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## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> On the other hand, Tivo has had known issues with some green switches. It might be a load of crap but they don't want to deal with it even if their boxes are causing the problem.


I thought they fixed those issues? I remember when the Roamio was launched there were some issues with certain green switches. But an update in the fall fixed the issue.


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## deaddeeds

I get V87 in spurts but then nothing for few weeks and then it will flare up again. I have not been able to root cause it because the fault code is so generic.

But I have my entire house wired with Cat6 using a switch. I have a Roamio and 3 Minis. So there is no way I could put all 4 devices on the Verizon ActionCrap Modem because I would still need one port to feed the switch for all of the other devices.

I think it is poor form of TiVo to make a blanket statement they don't support switches. 

Yes, I could move them over to MoCA but I should not have to. To me TiVo went down the path of the Mini and as a result they need to support switches.


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## lessd

deaddeeds said:


> I get V87 in spurts but then nothing for few weeks and then it will flare up again. I have not been able to root cause it because the fault code is so generic.
> 
> But I have my entire house wired with Cat6 using a switch. I have a Roamio and 3 Minis. So there is no way I could put all 4 devices on the Verizon ActionCrap Modem because I would still need one port to feed the switch for all of the other devices.
> 
> I think it is poor form of TiVo to make a blanket statement they don't support switches.
> 
> Yes, I could move them over to MoCA but I should not have to. To me TiVo went down the path of the Mini and as a result they need to support switches.


I think that TiVo will work with a network switch, I don't know how one would be able to design a network piece of hardware that would know if it were connected to a switch or not (maybe one could measure the delay in the green type of switches), however, the more connections/switches used in any network system the more chance for some problem to come up. WiFi itself uses a switch with about 127 ports. TiVo support is just not going to give you any help if you are using switches external to your router itself.


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## deaddeeds

TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.


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## CrispyCritter

deaddeeds said:


> TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.


What do you expect TiVo to do?

If you have a networking problem with the TiVo at this point, it is either caused by TiVo hardware (in which case the only recourse is replace the TiVo) or your local network. There's very little that can be done changing network setup on the TiVo itself.

You seem to want them to fix your network for free - to have their tech support know all the foibles of various switches, routers, and wiring problems that can occur. That's extremely expensive in both training and on-line time. I don't know anybody that does it for free - ISPs like Comcast certainly won't - do you know anybody?


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## aaronwt

deaddeeds said:


> TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.


Which are also using a switch. I would think it would be an unusual setup to not be using a switch.


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## nooneuknow

aaronwt said:


> Which are also using a switch. I would think it would be an unusual setup to not be using a switch.


I'm sure you've seen me post about this many times (and may not fully agree), so I'll just post for the rest:

The switches built into routers tend to have minimal, to moderate, management capabilities. Most TiVo users buy completely unmanaged switches (which should be fine, in theory, and in logic), which don't honor, or pass-along, what the management in the router's switch dictates.

However, there are unmanaged switches that will play by the router's rules, thus making most of TiVo's arguments against added switches invalid. The standard specification for this is "Honors" or "Supports" "IEEE 802.1p priority tags", which will usually be buried in the fine print under what standards are supported, like IEEE 802.3az - Energy Efficient Ethernet (AKA: Green). They can often be bought for the same price, or a few dollars more than those that don't support the standard.

I'm NOT saying that using these switches is a cure-all, or will force TiVo to stop telling everybody that every TiVo device must be plugged directly into the router ports (which are ports of a built-in switch).

If TiVo truly "does not support switches", then their hard-line stance is contradictory, at face-value, and beyond.


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## deaddeeds

CrispyCritter said:


> What do you expect TiVo to do?


I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.

Having your first Tier phone support say sorry we don't support switches is not a good way to support your customers.


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## CrispyCritter

nooneuknow said:


> I'm NOT saying that using these switches is a cure-all, or will force TiVo to stop telling everybody that every TiVo device must be plugged directly into the router ports (which are ports of a built-in switch).


I'm not aware that this is TiVo policy or even that TiVo has ever said that. I certainly believe that TiVo support reps are not making their points clear, and it is certainly possible that some reps don't understand TiVo policy.

What I'm hearing, reported here and in other threads, is that TiVo support will not debug potential network problems unless all TiVo devices are plugged directly into the router. I consider this reasonable and definitely in line with what everybody else does (in the past I've had to temporarily reconfigure my home networks in order to get Comcast help with internet problems (that turned out to be rain in a damaged line)).

There's a big difference between TiVo telling folks that they won't debug problems if there are extra switches, and them telling folks that all TiVo devices must be plugged into router ports at all times ( and I agree their reps need more training to make this point clear to users, in that right now it obviously is not.)


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## CrispyCritter

deaddeeds said:


> I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.


They did that in the past, when wired and wireless connections were introduced, and it turned out to be very messy and very expensive in terms of support. Lots of unhappy folks here during that time with lots of complaints.

They evidently swore never to do it again, and they changed to supporting only their own brand of wireless connection, and only their own approved external disks.


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## Alf Tanner

The switches and routers I have on my network that appear to work well with TiVo
Arris TM722 cable modem
Asus N66u router (merlin firmware)
Linksys E4200 V1 router (Ver.1.0.05 Build 7 firmware)
D-Link DGS-2208 green switch
D-Link DGS-1100-08 managed switch
D-Link DGS-1008G smart switch


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## htruong74

Tivo's policy on this matter is the worst. They will not provide support for Tivo's using their Ethernet interface. It's not if it's a type of router or switch. Their only supported configuration is MOCA. I have tried to escalate my incident and they made an excuse by pointing to my switch networking and upgraded HD on my Tivo Roamio Basic. Throughout the case, they never ask how it's connected to the network, or model of my switch. 

My Tivo's actually connected to one Asus N66U router with Merlin firmware. And my v87 problem is not network related at all. I work in IT for over 10 years to understand how to troubleshoot things. These issues will not be addressed if other folks (with non-modified Tivo) that are affected do not call in and escalate. I am not going to remove my 3tb out of my Tivo Roamio Basic. And even if I do, they will make other excuses.

*** email from tivo

Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support! This is a response to your current issue that is noted on reference number 140526-003624. We have researched this case further. Two issues we see are that you are attempting to use a switch as part of your networking setup. Additionally it appears the internal hard-drive of the DVR has been modified with a larger drive. With an unsupported network and hard-drive, we have no additional troubleshooting steps to offer. If you have any questions please contact us using any of the following methods.

Customer Support Line at 877-367-8486 
E-mail team at http://support.tivo.com/app/ask. 
Chat team at http://support.tivo.com/app/chat/chat_launch 

Replies directly to this email will not be received.

Taylor
TiVo Advanced Escalations


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## Diana Collins

I've been in computer systems infrastructure for most of my career and so I am the "LAN consultant" for most of my friends. At least 50% of the LANs I see are poorly configured (chains or trees of switches, gigabit switches and devices plugged into fast Ethernet switches, routers plugged into routers, etc.). While some of the folks responding to this thread (including myself) may have well designed networks, we are in the minority. Therefore, I can't seriously fault TiVo support for wanting as many variables as possible removed from the network before being willing to troubleshoot (it is also just good troubleshooting procedure). As others have said, this message is getting distorted when talking to the CSRs but that is also par for the course.

As far as pushing folks towards MOCA goes, it is not an unusual practice. DirecTV, for example, will not support ANY method of DVR interconnection besides MOCA (or DECA as their version is usually called). Implementing MOCA is so simple I don't really get the resistance. While MOCA is only about as fast as Fast Ethernet, that is really more than adequate for the average user and keeps all the TiVo to TiVo traffic off your LAN (and vice versa). Few people have more than 100Mbit internet connections, so it won't effect downloads. The only thing that will be enhanced by gigabit connections between TiVos is copying recordings between DVRs. If that is your issue, you can get into a supported config by plugging your DVRs into your router and only configuring one of them to use both Ethernet and MOCA, while leaving the other on Ethernet only, at least while debugging the problem.

It seems to me that if a company earning billions a year (DirecTV) refuses to support Ethernet at all, it is not all that surprising that TiVo has decided to limit the network configurations it can support.


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## bunjicat

So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.


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## dianebrat

bunjicat said:


> So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. *I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. * On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.


I call a flag on the play! facts not in evidence!!!


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## bunjicat

Lol. But come on! An enterprise switch shouldn't flinch at such load.


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## aaronwt

Even a consumer switch is fine. I have a dozen IP cameras sending video 24/7 over a segment of my network to a PC running Blue Iris and Tivo Desktop. If I connect a Mini to that segment it will still work fine with my DLink, unmanaged, GigE switches.


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## dianebrat

bunjicat said:


> Lol. But come on! An enterprise switch shouldn't flinch at such load.


But it is a valid point that when someone is having connection issues we assume a standard consumer network and devices, you threw a series of high-bandwidth usage on it but didn't mention it.

FWIW this is exactly why Tivo won't support more complicated networks, and in that aspect you've proved them right in why they don't/shouldn't do it IMNSHO.


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## nooneuknow

bunjicat said:


> So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.


You definitely got the last laugh!

If I had overtly suggested the solution you used, I'd have been relentlessly hammered by some, as other TiVo with ethernet switch topic threads I have participated in have proven.

You certainly ruffled some feathers, and have proven that even finding your own solution to your own problem will still be scrutinized by some, and villainized by others.

One participant seems to have a problem free configuration for every possible TiVo scenario, but only lists one TiVo in their signature...

Who would have ever guessed that utilizing a network management function would fix your scenario? I guess "my friend" would...


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## Wingershute

Just came across this thread. I can tell you the minis works fine with switches. I use four trend net switches and no problems except for a slight lag when channel changing or playing a video. Each mini has its own 5 port switch and my asus router connects to an eight port which then connects to the three other switches which are in separate rooms. I made my own cat 6 cables.


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## lessd

Wingershute said:


> Just came across this thread. I can tell you the minis works fine with switches. I use four trend net switches and no problems except for a slight lag when channel changing or playing a video. Each mini has its own 5 port switch and my asus router connects to an eight port which then connects to the three other switches which are in separate rooms. I made my own cat 6 cables.


The term *will not work with a network switch* is not what TiVos problem is, most systems will work using a network switch, but not all and TiVo does not want to support the few cases when using a network switch is causing the problem with your TiVo. I have a network power monitor that will not work when connected to a switch, works great when connected directly to one port of my router, don't know why and don't care why, my network printer works great connected to the same switch.


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## nooneuknow

lessd said:


> The term *will not work with a network switch* is not what TiVos problem is, most systems will work using a network switch, but not all and TiVo does not want to support the few cases when using a network switch is causing the problem with your TiVo. I have a network power monitor that will not work when connected to a switch, works great when connected directly to one port of my router, don't know why and don't care why, my network printer works great connected to the same switch.


My network printer didn't work if the router got rebooted, without a hard power cycle of the printer. So, I put it on a secondary switch (counting the router as the first switch). Yet, even then it still sometimes acted up. Finally just gave it a reserved IP, and it works fine either way, even though it specifically has a DHCP setting, and is the default option...

Some have found the same with TiVos, but it seems most don't want to assign static IPs to their TiVos.

I prefer to set the devices to DHCP, then use the router to make sure the DHCP has a "reserved" address for each device.

I like bunjicat's last-laugh, mostly due to it being "not the usual way one uses a TiVo", but still opening up an possibility for others to try, if equipped to do so, segmenting using a VLAN, as opposed to running a dedicated physical cable, to take out a switch (or switches).

That's also a way to fix VoIP issues, when the endpoint adapters act-up on switches beyond the router. It would have been my next step, had Priority rules not worked. At the same time, members have claimed they have other brands of VoIP units that work fine after passing through six or eight switches.

Still not something most have the type of equipment, or expertise, required to implement, more so than my QoS/Priority suggestions. But, VLANS often come up in articles on improving QoS.

I'm not trying to elbow you, or spark any disagreements. I'm just pointing out the YMMV factor, on so many things.


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## lessd

nooneuknow said:


> My network printer didn't work if the router got rebooted, without a hard power cycle of the printer. So, I put it on a secondary switch (counting the router as the first switch). Yet, even then it still sometimes acted up. Finally just gave it a reserved IP, and it works fine either way, even though it specifically has a DHCP setting, and is the default option...
> 
> Some have found the same with TiVos, but it seems most don't want to assign static IPs to their TiVos.
> 
> I prefer to set the devices to DHCP, then use the router to make sure the DHCP has a "reserved" address for each device.
> 
> I like bunjicat's last-laugh, mostly due to it being "not the usual way one uses a TiVo", but still opening up an possibility for others to try, if equipped to do so, segmenting using a VLAN, as opposed to running a dedicated physical cable, to take out a switch (or switches).
> 
> That's also a way to fix VoIP issues, when the endpoint adapters act-up on switches beyond the router. It would have been my next step, had Priority rules not worked. At the same time, members have claimed they have other brands of VoIP units that work fine after passing through six or eight switches.
> 
> Still not something most have the type of equipment, or expertise, required to implement, more so than my QoS/Priority suggestions. But, VLANS often come up in articles on improving QoS.
> 
> I'm not trying to elbow you, or spark any disagreements. I'm just pointing out the YMMV factor, on so many things.


I have many friends/family that have had network problems, I don't have any now using my Netgear R6300 router (for the last few years), and in desperation in trying to help some people I have made then purchase the same router I have, and their problems go away, not saying my router is the best, just that it works very reliability with the Comcast internet system in my CT home town.
My HP printer works without any problems using DHCP, but some printers I have worked with do require a static IP to work without problems, don't know why but each network and printer are somewhat different and I am no network expert.


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## moyekj

I hadn't used MRS for a long, long time but had to recently. With Roamio Pro as host and Premiere Elite as client with a MoCA + ethernet connection between I kept getting V87 errors at least once per show, sometimes 3 or 4 times. In all cases just re-starting MRS again after the dropout worked immediately. This seems a lot worse than I can remember for V87 errors. V87 errors I used to get were when I would MRS recordings that had not yet completed. Very rarely would I get V87 error otherwise. Looks like recent TiVo code has made things much worse...


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## moyekj

V87 problems abound still. I won't be needing to MRS anymore after tonight. I'd be pissed if I was still a heavy user of MRS and streaming to a series 4 unit.


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## mburnno

deaddeeds said:


> I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.
> 
> Having your first Tier phone support say sorry we don't support switches is not a good way to support your customers.


I couldn't agree more with your statement you just made! I have had this conversation more than one time with Tivo and with some of the users on this forum who seem to want to back Tivo. I don't think anybody here is really asking Tivo to jump through a ring of fire but instead come to the reality of switches are more in the home environment then ever.


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## lessd

mburnno said:


> I couldn't agree more with your statement you just made! I have had this conversation more than one time with Tivo and with some of the users on this forum who seem to want to back Tivo. I don't think anybody here is really asking Tivo to jump through a ring of fire but instead come to the reality of switches are more in the home environment then ever.


I had some switch problems (not TiVo type as I use MoCA and a direct connection from the main Roamio to the Router) and solved them by purchasing a smart Netgear (GS108T) switch that has its own IP address into my router, and has all kinds of settings that a router may have, solved all my switch problems.


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## dcline414

We only have one Tivo, but it is a wired connection through a D-link DGS-1005G green gigabit switch. We actually have 3 of these switches on our network, all of which have bandwidth-intensive devices connected. We have never had a single error, and don't have any difficulty streaming HD video between devices.

Tivo may not support them, but switches don't inherently cause any Tivo connectivity issues. I would try resetting the switch first, and possibly try replacing it with one from a store that takes returns (Walmart) to see if the switch is indeed causing the errors. A bad switch anywhere on the network can also cause connectivity issues elsewhere, so disconnecting other devices could help isolate the problem.

Lastly, don't forget that the cable itself can go bad. I have spent hundreds replacing devices only to discover that all I needed was a $5 cable.


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## meyerweb

My issue with TiVo on this network switch issue isn't that the configuration isn't supported, it's that they don't TELL you it's not supported until you've already spent your money. There's nothing on their product pages that says a switched network config isn't supported. 

There's so much missing information on TiVo's web site it virtually amounts to false advertising.


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## CrispyCritter

meyerweb said:


> My issue with TiVo on this network switch issue isn't that the configuration isn't supported, it's that they don't TELL you it's not supported until you've already spent your money. There's nothing on their product pages that says a switched network config isn't supported.
> 
> There's so much missing information on TiVo's web site it virtually amounts to false advertising.


Once again, folks are not fully understanding TiVo's position. I would guess a vast majority of the folks here are running TiVos with switches. It works; TiVo expects it to work.

But TiVo will not help you debug TiVo network problems unless you take out the switches. An unfortunate, but understandable, position. Too many folks have local networks with problems, and TiVo uses some advanced features that expose those problems. I don't know any major player that will debug your local network problems for free.

If you want TiVo's help, you'll have to temporarily reconfigure your network so the TiVos don't go through any switches. This is exactly the same thing as I have had to do in the past to get Comcast to debug internet problems. It's exactly the same thing as most industry vendor support - they will only debug (for free) for you if you put your system in a known state. Anything else has to be paid for and specified in your contract.


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## htruong74

CrispyCritter said:


> Once again, folks are not fully understanding TiVo's position. I would guess a vast majority of the folks here are running TiVos with switches. It works; TiVo expects it to work.
> 
> But TiVo will not help you debug TiVo network problems unless you take out the switches. An unfortunate, but understandable, position. Too many folks have local networks with problems, and TiVo uses some advanced features that expose those problems. I don't know any major player that will debug your local network problems for free.
> 
> If you want TiVo's help, you'll have to temporarily reconfigure your network so the TiVos don't go through any switches. This is exactly the same thing as I have had to do in the past to get Comcast to debug internet problems. It's exactly the same thing as most industry vendor support - they will only debug (for free) for you if you put your system in a known state. Anything else has to be paid for and specified in your contract.


I have reconfigure my Tivo Roamio and Tivo Mini setup to their undocumented supported configuration specifications and they are making new excuses to not believe that v87 is a software issue. I have switch my Roamio OTA and Mini setup from network switch to Moca network. It was worst off and I had constant v87s than with my switches. They sent me two replacement Moca adapters and they also want me to add a Moca filter into the configuration. MY coaxial network is only connected to antenna on roof, pre-amp, then amp, and then a 4-way 1200 MHZ splitters to my Tivo's. They insist I need a moca filter at my cable modem to increase the coaxial signal. The cable modem is in another house and it's only providing internet via uplink to my switch. I am hoping they finally get someone to dump logs when they have run out of excuses.


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## richy240

Wow I have a Mini connected three switches and a wireless bridge away from my Roamio and I don't have any of these problems. It actually works really well.


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## Diana Collins

New example of there being a software problem:

I was watching TV via one of our Minis yesterday and went into the guide to see what else was on. While browsing the guide a V87 error popped up, saying that connection to the host Roamio had been lost. However, at no point did the video stream stop. Other than the error on the screen there was no evidence anything had happened. I was forced to go back to the TiVo home screen, since that was the only way to clear the error message.


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## lessd

Diana Collins said:


> New example of there being a software problem:
> 
> I was watching TV via one of our Minis yesterday and went into the guide to see what else was on. While browsing the guide a V87 error popped up, saying that connection to the host Roamio had been lost. However, at no point did the video stream stop. Other than the error on the screen there was no evidence anything had happened. I was forced to go back to the TiVo home screen, since that was the only way to clear the error message.


I wonder how long the connection has to go down before the V87 error comes on, if it is only 0.1sec you may not notice the loss of connection, but the electronics does, and on comes the V87 error.


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## PuterPro

Hi All!

Sadly I don't have much time in my schedule to be more active in the community, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in here. Replies may not be looked at for months  so a conversation with my participation won't happen. SORRY!

I have 2 Roamios, run hard wired via Cat 5e, one setup to an antenna, the other setup to Comcast via cable. I record my most viewed shows OTA for better quality, and use the Comcast box for the cable only channels. The OTA box is in the other room from my main viewing area, so probably 80% of my viewing is "watch the other box". I therefore have a _lot_ of experience with that pesky v87.

My Comcast Internet is their max speed (105 Mbps) but running speed tests I routinely get 90 - 130 Mbps, so I've plenty of bandwidth _out _of the house. My Cable modem / router has its wireless *off *as I'm running a Netgear R6300 802.11 AC (Gigabit ports). The TiVos are on a gigabit switch off that box, both on the same switch. It's a TP-Link TL-SG1008G (8 Port).

The connectors and wiring is all TESTED (I _am _a Tech after all ...  ) and the house is only 7 years old. So, no wiring issues here. In chasing this stupid v87 I have *physically *swapped out _every _wire involved as well. It "AIN'T NOT THE WIRES" as they say in the deep south. I'm about to go on vacation, when I get back I'm replacing the switch with a higher quality one and *will *report back on that.

I'm not a network engineer, but I _have _ been troubleshooting networks since 1983, and have been a Certified Electronics Tech since 1969. I've seen a few things is my point ... 

*I'm pretty convinced this v87 is software, and TiVo doesn't want to own it for some odd reason. *

It could be internal politics. People are people, and anyone who has worked with engineers and programmers knows they tend to be odd ducks, and often very opinionated. (Moi included LOL!) It's the nature of the beast. A Tech or engineer must troubleshoot, and be _*right*_. The people, who are responsible for the network software, or their immediate management, don't want to tackle this. Someone powerful there just doesn't want to deal with it. They know it's there; they don't want to own it.

*{Rant follows}*
This is absurd. They could tell us what switches they _*know *_don't work (Tech support could easily gather that data when people call or Email about the issue). They don't.

They could also tell us what switches _do _work in their knowledge. They don't.

Virtually everyone with a TiVo has a network, sometime complex ones. They could publish an online guide or PDF of how they want it hooked up IN A REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT, including some variations to accommodate different setups. Do they show us how to setup? They don't.

I do not doubt that some of the v87's are just people with crappy Chinese switches (*I* have one!), ancient routers that work via signal flags, or even grossly mis-wired combinations (one shudders to think what's out there). I'm _sure_ there's a hardware component issue at work here in some cases. 
But - DO THEY GIVE US ANY GUIDANCE?? They don't.

Now I get that they're not Netgear or Cisco and don't want to get into the network troubleshooting game (although, if you make a box that connects to a network by its basic, highly advertised, function *you have no choice*!).

Many have reported that setting a static IP solves it in _some _cases, but the average DVR owner shouldnt have to be a network engineer to solve TiVos problem! Its their problem, not ours. Do they fix it? They don't. (Its been around since V4 according to what Ive read)

However. {Insert pregnant pause here}
*It's a software issue.* Why, you ask, since I just laid out a great case for the hardware side being at fault?
Because it happens for me, and for many who have posted here, and for countless others who just suffer in silence, JUST BEFORE VIEWING THE END OF A LIVE SHOW BEING RECORDED THAT JUST ENDED!! Sometimes it remembers your place, sometime not.

That's software folks, plain and simple.

There's a communication occurring between the boxes at that point that drops the connection, and as someone suggested earlier, THEY COULD BUFFER FOR A SECOND when the drop occurs. They don't.



It all adds up to: *They don't.*

They could fix this. Someone there,* I suspect some mid manger is defending his / her turf* and is not owning up to this and not providing a solution. SOMEONE doesn't care, or doesn't want to be bothered.
It's political, I'm sure, or the network engineers have reached the end of their knowledge and just can't figure out they need to trap the code and buffer it, OR it could be cost. Although it's not THAT expensive to task someone to draw a simple diagram of what's allowed and not on the hardware side with some suggested and forbidden equipment, but again, *that's mid management.*

Ultimately, what the v87 error is truly about is a software problem coupled to an apathetic manager or someone who has no imagination to solve it. It's too low on the corporate radar for upper management to kick someone's butt.

Only thing we can do is keep calling them and *****ing. You want *your *v87 errors fixed? Call and put up with some 1st level or second level tech with _no _authority to tell you it's your entire fault. Eventually the numbers will rise and trigger a response. Personally, knowing corporations, I'm not holding my breath. 

*{END RANT}
*
When back, I'll try running the TiVos through the Netgear R6300 rather than the switch, again, I don't have much time but I'll definitely try to report back. If no joy I'll try Static or an address range, but again, we shouldn't have to do this level of troubleshooting to get a consumer product to work.

*Thanks to all the posters who take their time to help others.* :up::up: I try to do that on several other Forums, but time's a hard thing to come by for me. {Sigh}

All the Best, PuterPro


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## JWhites

bunjicat said:


> So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.


It's fully possible that even then the ticket will never reach an engineer.


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## JWhites

bunjicat said:


> So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.


Congrats on finding a solution! :up: Now I'm curious what you're doing with so many cameras.  lol


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## nooneuknow

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IEEE 802.3i 10BASE-T Ethernet 
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IEEE 802.3ab 1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet 
*Honors IEEE 802.1p priority tags*

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122363

I love these for both TiVo, and VoIP!


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## JWhites

I dunno I personally like Linksys products. I've been using Linksys SE2800 switches for everything and it's been so rock solid it boggles my mind.


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## 2004raptor

I had a thread here about my issue with trying to use a switch with a roamio and mini setup. Never really got it working the way I think it should.

Basically, I want my Roamio to plug into a router (which is in AP mode) that's connected to my main router. And My mini is connected to my main router.
This is all on the same network and I don't see why it doesn't work but the mini will not get the recordings or live tv from the roamio like this.

If they are both plugged into the main router they work fine.

What I am considering doing is leaving the mini plugged into the main router but then adding a switch *before* the router (AP mode) and plugging the roamio into that switch.

I'm not sure if this will work but again, I can't see why it wouldn't.


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## JWhites

By AP mode do you mean that router is set to bridge mode and the Ethernet cable going to it is going into the WAN port?


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## 2004raptor

Yes, Netgear calls it Access Point mode. And I connected it as per their instructions. It's been a few months but I'm 99% sure it's in the WAN port.

For years (before I had the roamio or mini) I had it connected in one of the LAN ports and not in AP mode with no issues as far as other devices. I considered switching it back to test the mini/roamio communication but just never got around to it.


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## buckyswider

What they COULD do is put ping facilities into their devices. May be a little difficult for non-techs to understand, but a decent doc could show someone how to determine the IP addresses of each device and how to "ping" the other device it's trying to contact. A successful PING without excessive TTL would effectively rule out any (OK, "most") network-caused issues and allow troubleshooting to proceed without all this nonsense.

And yes, I'm having a V70 trying to set up a new MINI on a stable, three-hop home network.


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## lessd

buckyswider said:


> What they COULD do is put ping facilities into their devices. May be a little difficult for non-techs to understand, but a decent doc could show someone how to determine the IP addresses of each device and how to "ping" the other device it's trying to contact. A successful PING without excessive TTL would effectively rule out any (OK, "most") network-caused issues and allow troubleshooting to proceed without all this nonsense.
> 
> And yes, I'm having a V70 trying to set up a new MINI on a stable, three-hop home network.


Anyone that knows about pinging does not need much help on networks from TiVo. If you use MoCA, TiVos systems works with the least problems, that what TiVo is looking for, network trouble shooting is not what TiVo is not looking for.

Good luck with your setup.


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## buckyswider

It would help TiVo help others, but we can question their motives and methods 'til we're blue in the face to no avail. Like this.


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## nooneuknow

Try the MoCA related threads. There's nearly 100 of them to choose from.


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## aaronwt

2004raptor said:


> Yes, Netgear calls it Access Point mode. And I connected it as per their instructions. It's been a few months but I'm 99% sure it's in the WAN port.
> 
> For years (before I had the roamio or mini) I had it connected in one of the LAN ports and not in AP mode with no issues as far as other devices. I considered switching it back to test the mini/roamio communication but just never got around to it.


I use several ASus routers in AP mode. That is what ASus calls it, which is what it is. Since they become just an Access Point.


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## HDRyder9

I have a Layer 3 Cisco managed switch. My old Mini works fine but my new Mini gets the V87 error about twice an hour. I switched to MOCA and I still get the V87 error. You can't blame my switch.


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## buckyswider

sounds like a bad Mini??


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## HDRyder9

I hate to send it back but I guess I have to.


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## sathead

I just hooked up a second Mini via ethernet (through a switch) and got two v87 errors while watching the recording still in progress football game last night. That was the first time I used this particular Mini. Our original Mini is connected directly to the same router that the Roamio Base is connected to and has been flawless- although I don't think it's ever been used to watch shows that are currently being recorded.
I'm going to swap the two Mini's between locations and see if the problem follows the Mini or it's location based....


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## HDRyder9

I was getting an couple errors per hour but it just shopped. I haven't had an error in about 10 days.


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## dbwilbur

I finally solved my issues by using a wireless extender that also has a gigabit ethernet port. The mini is running quite nicely streaming over wireless now!


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## sathead

sathead said:


> I'm going to swap the two Mini's between locations and see if the problem follows the Mini or it's location based....


Well I did the swap- watched the full (almost 4hrs) Giants/Dallas game (while it was still recording) with no errors in the location where I had v87 errors previously. Got about 1/2 way through the Broncos/49ers game (while it was still being recorded) and got a v87, then another one about half an hour later.

At this point- it would actually be easier for me to just move the Roamio to the room where I watch live recordings in progress (during football season) and put the 2nd Mini where the Roamio is now as nobody watches live recordings in progress at that location. It's the same three connections for the Roamio or Mini so the swap would literally take less than 60 seconds rather than trying to chase down the v87 error or run a new cat6 drop (and switch) up to the attic, down two floors through the fireplace chase to downstairs where the Roamio and other Mini reside.


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## JWhites

I really hate bringing up this old thread, but after refreshing my knowledge of 802.1p this thread came up on Bing, and a question popped up in my head. With all the discussion of switches and 802.1p, how the heck do we know that TiVo even supports and puts out 802.1p QoS tagging in the first place? Has anyone actually sniffed out these packets to confirm?


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