# Game of Thrones 8x04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/19



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, sad to see Dany showing that, for all her better qualities, she is after all power-mad. As in, when it comes to power unable to see reason. She claims to be the Queen by right of birth; she knows that in fact Jon is king by right of birth, and she doesn't care.

I'm starting to think she goes all Targaryan in the next episode, and Jon/Aegon ends up king.

Sad to see Thormund not get what he wants.

Sad to see Brienne not get what she wants.

Sad to see Gendry not get what he wants.

But man, will I be glad to see Ayra get what she wants!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Uh... they built a few more dragon guns.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Bronn snuck into their room at Winterfell quite easily. Not sure I liked how that played out.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Sad to see Bronn be suck a dick. I know he's a sell sword, but I thought he was friends with those two.

Glad to see Varys play a part. I don't think he's said much this season.

As soon as they said, "and a smaller group will go this way", I knew something would be waiting for them.

GreyWorm, Jaime and Cersei will die. Brienne will be pregnant.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Sansa has really learned a lot from Little Finger. I think Varys is also a goner.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

They already used the Arya sneak attack last week but why wouldn’t she just sneak in and kill Cersei?

And, boy, Sansa didn’t learn about keeping a vow from her daddy, did she. Blabbed to Tyrion as soon as she could.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

And was it me or did they lighten up the scenes from last week on the previous on tonight?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

And sorry for three straight posts but, damn, almost nobody with a name died in the biggest battle ever.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ugh. Another dragon dead.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> They already used the Arya sneak attack last week but why wouldn't she just sneak in and kill Cersei?


Yeah, that was the one thing that bothered me about last week's ending --they've already used up the Arya assassination shtick on the NK, so how will she kill Cersei without it seeming like a rehash of the same thing?



> And, boy, Sansa didn't learn about keeping a vow from her daddy, did she. Blabbed to Tyrion as soon as she could.


Inevitable, really. She's in the middle of telling him to challenge Dany _without_ a competing claim, and he turns around and tells her he actually has one. Of course she's going to talk about it. Honestly Jon was showing a bit of his father uncle there; being truthful/honorable to a fault, and expecting others to do the same.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> They already used the Arya sneak attack last week but why wouldn't she just sneak in and kill Cersei?
> 
> And, boy, Sansa didn't learn about keeping a vow from her daddy, did she. Blabbed to Tyrion as soon as she could.


She really did, didn't she? I was trying to find a way to understand how Tyrion knew without Sansa telling him but drew a blank.

Like Varys says, everyone knows now.

I'm a little surprised Cersei didn't fire on Tyrion.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Yeah, that was the one thing that bothered me about last week's ending --they've already used up the Arya assassination shtick on the NK, so how will she kill Cersei without it seeming like a rehash of the same thing?.


With a face


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

Was anyone else yelling at the screen for Missandei to grab Cersei when she got close and throw herself with Cersei off the platform to their deaths?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUSlider said:


> Was anyone else yelling at the screen for Missandei to grab Cersei when she got close and throw herself with Cersei off the platform to their deaths?


Except Cersei was careful to stand behind her, and her hands were tied in front of her.

Interesting that Missandei's dying word was basically telling Dany to burn them all, burn them all.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> With a face


Yeah, she did that with Walder Frey, but I guess that was at least a different season.

And honestly the thought crossed my mind, during Missendei's big dramatic pause, that she might slip her chains, gut Cersei, and then pull her face off...

[though in retrospect, that would imply killing Missendei first, since that's generally how they seem to get the faces]


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Yeah, that was the one thing that bothered me about last week's ending --they've already used up the Arya assassination shtick on the NK, so how will she kill Cersei without it seeming like a rehash of the same thing?


Who says it's Cersei she's headed to kill? I think she's going after the Mountain.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

RIP Rhaegal


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

astrohip said:


> RIP Rhaegal


I was stunned/ shocked/speechless when that happened. It was so 'sudden'.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Interesting how Euron knew exactly where to go and how to hide.

Cersei sure knows how to push Daenerys' buttons.

But perhaps so might Sansa.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

At least Ghost lives ... for now.


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

How do you march (or fly) to a battle without resting your troops from the last one, and without getting scouting reports as to what's going on with your enemy? They were completely blindsided, and it's their own fault.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Personally I now think Jon is a goner. After Sansa breaks her word almost immediately and does exactly what Daenarys said she'd do, and what Jon promised she would never do, karma rules that Jon must die as a direct result of that betrayal, to teach Sansa a lesson. Plus the foreshadowing where she says "men in her family don't do well in the south".

It's either that or Dany is killed, Jon becomes king, then is compelled by honor to put Sansa / Varys / Tyrion on trial for treason or somesuch.

However, with only two episodes left there's only so much plot you can fit in...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Jstkiddn said:


> Who says it's Cersei she's headed to kill? I think she's going after the Mountain.


She was originally going down to King's Landing to kill Cersei before she found out that Jon was in Winterfell. So I think that's still her ultimate goal. I don't think she kills The Mountain unless The Hound dies trying first.

However, she might also take out some others along the way. Those dragon-killers are a threat to Daenerys laying waste to the city. Perhaps Arya tells Daenerys that she can help, but only if Daenerys trusts her, and attacks at a specific time.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Episode Title:

"The Last of the Starks"


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Wow I hated so much about this episode I don't really have coherent thoughts right now. I'll come back tomorrow. Glad to see several comments on here mirroring my inner shock/rage.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

When Gendry asked Arya, I said out loud "that's not me." I was very happy that she used those words, after letting Gendry down gently first.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

How did Illyn Payne get crossed off the list?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I wanted to see more of a goodbye between Jon and Ghost. That pissed me off.
As soon as Messandre and Grey Worm were holding hands and smiling, I knew all hell was going to break loose. 
Love that the Arya & The Hound Road Show is back.  
I spied Podrick leaving the room with a girl on each arm. 
Brienne should have stuck with Giantsbane. He never would have left her like that. 
Sansa's a *****, but I'm not surprised.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

They might as well put Starfleet red shirts on the dragons ... that is if the replicator can make dragon sized red shirts.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> How did Illyn Payne get crossed off the list?


The actor who played him died of pancreatic cancer. So, it never got resolved.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I really enjoyed this episode. :up:


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

also - I was sure she was going to kill Tyrion.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except Cersei was careful to stand behind her, and her hands were tied in front of her.
> 
> Interesting that Missandei's dying word was basically telling Dany to burn them all, burn them all.


I guessed that line. If it wasn't a minute from the ending I thought Drogon might be nearby

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'm not sure how the only satisfying ending Is Cersei on the iron throne. She's done everything right, and everybody has done almost everything wrong. 

The only really satisfying ending where Cersei is gone will be some sort of Arya magic. 


-smak-


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

This show should be taught in medieval warfare classes to show what NOT to do.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Also. I know it was just for show really, but how could anybody, let alone Tyrion, think Cersei would make a deal with one less dragon, and way fewer troops than the last time she turned him down. 

I want to see team dragon do something clever for once. 


-smak-


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Question is what the hell is Jaime hoping to do riding into King's Landing?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> Question is what the hell is Jaime hoping to do riding into King's Landing?


That didn't strike me as off at all. I could be wrong, but he saw the immediate threat as the dead...and that's gone, so he's back to his sister.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Did Cersei just tell Euron she was pregnant with his child? I wonder if Euron wonders how Tyrion knows this. 


-smak-


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

MonsterJoe said:


> That didn't strike me as off at all. I could be wrong, but he saw the immediate threat as the dead...and that's gone, so he's back to his sister.


Then, he's the biggest fool in all of Westeros, and Essos.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Good thing Cersei took that refresher course in archery hand signals or Tyrion would have sprouted a bunch of inadvertent arrows.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> Then, he's the biggest fool in all of Westeros, and Essos.


No argument from me there. I've really enjoyed his character development over the series. We ALL used to hate him, right? ...but now we all give him the time of day....

Still, I don't see redemption for him in this story...and I like that, too.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Time to start a CGI PETA, no more dragon (or technically wyvern) cruelty!!!


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

cbrrider said:


> Question is what the hell is Jaime hoping to do riding into King's Landing?


Add "Queenslayer" and "Kinslayer" to his resume in one final act of heroism that no one will ever understand.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I’m thinking the ending has to be a reset of sorts. Not a happy ending but the end of this “winter” as this story has basically played out before. So, the dragons have to die and we have to have peace at the end of this saga. But with uneasiness at the edges. How they will do that specifically, I am not sure at all, but all the prophecy and historical stuff has told us this is a sort of repeat of previous winters.


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## Jeff_in_Bklyn (Apr 26, 2003)

smak said:


> Did Cersei just tell Euron she was pregnant with his child? I wonder if Euron wonders how Tyrion knows this.
> 
> -smak-


Doesn't that imply that Tyrion and Cersei are in contact somehow, that she must have told him? That Tyrion is playing the long game. "I understand how this game is played"


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Jeff_in_Bklyn said:


> Doesn't that imply that Tyrion and Cersei are in contact somehow, that she must have told him? That Tyrion is playing the long game. "I understand how this game is played"


Tyrion found out that Cersie was pregnant last year. But my point was he shouldn't know if she JUST found out she was pregnant with Eurons baby. Meaning Euron might find out it's not his and get pissed.

-smak-


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I'm thinking the ending has to be a reset of sorts. Not a happy ending but the end of this "winter" as this story has basically played out before. So, the dragons have to die and we have to have peace at the end of this saga. But with uneasiness at the edges. How they will do that specifically, I am not sure at all, but all the prophecy and historical stuff has told us this is a sort of repeat of previous winters.


I really think Dany goes full Targaryan, and somebody (Jon would be the most tragic candidate) has to kill her to save everybody else.


MonsterJoe said:


> That didn't strike me as off at all. I could be wrong, but he saw the immediate threat as the dead...and that's gone, so he's back to his sister.


I think you're wrong...I think he was pretending that because he knows he's going to die in whatever plan he has, and he needed to break off his ties to Brienne both for her sake and his.

He feels he has to do...whatever it is he's going to do, and if he told her the truth she would go with him and die as well.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Hasn’t anyone in GoT watched the Incredibles? Both NK and Cersei were monologing, even if unspoken. I mean, she could have ended it all there right? Between the archers and giant crossbows, especially after killing Missandei. What did she have to lose at that point? Would it have meant breaking some sort of code to do so? Who could care less about such things than her?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Arya - Night King slayer, Breaker of Hearts. I know it wouldn't fit into the time period but I'd watch a spinoff series of Arya leading a motorcycle gang.

Sansa is a snitch. So much for her word meaning anything and she's been reduced to being petty and jealous towards Dany.

Tyrion is a snitch. And what was up with his "You're a virgin" statement to Brienne? Either he was being a total dick or it was a clumsy way for the writers to get Brienne and Jaime to hook up. I kinda thought Tyrion was going to kill Varys to keep him quiet.

Cercei is stupid. She had a zillion archers and and dragon-bows on the wall and didn't wipe out Dany and friends who stupidly confronted her. Cercei is going to fight Dany anyway. Might as well decapitate her leadership when given this golden opportunity.

Dany is a terrible military tactician. There's no reason to fight Cercei so soon after the Night King other than to cram as much as possible into the final episodes. Personally, I think she was right in begging to keep his damn trap shut. Nothing good could possibly come out of everybody and their uncle knowing Jon's secret, especially with Sansa in full back stabbing mode.

So much for Jon's dragon riding days. I wondered why Dany didn't fly Drogon around Euron's fleet and attack it from behind. Would the ship bound dragon-bows have 360 degree mobility?

RIP Missandei, my pretty, curly haired tv crush. I home Grey Worm kills the sh*t out of Euron Greyjoy in your honor.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I wondered why Dany didn't fly Drogon around Euron's fleet and attack it from behind. Would the ship bound dragon-bows have 360 degree mobility?


I didn't understand the point of the whole dragon dive-bomb... I figured she caused them to use all their arrows, and the reload time would give her a chance to torch some ships, but it seemed all for nothing.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

SullyND said:


> I didn't understand the point of the whole dragon dive-bomb... I figured she caused them to use all their arrows, and the reload time would give her a chance to torch some ships, but it seemed all for nothing.


Plus they turned their arrows towards the ships. A good time for some dragon time.

That scene confused me.

-smak-


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I still think Arya will kill Cersi (the same way she got to Frey).


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Random thought, I thought that Tyrion was much more himself in this episode. And at the same time, I think the episode helped explain why he's been such an idiot lately.

The problem is that he believes in something/someone. He's always had a good heart, and now that he's found a worthy cause to put his faith in, he wants to see that same good in everyone else. That's what's leading him to make so many misjudgements and miscalculations lately.

Whereas when he was a total cynic, expecting the worst of everyone, he was usually right!


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> I still think Arya will kill Cersi (the same way she got to Frey).


Just too repetitive. Apparently there are already fans online calling her a "Mary Sue" character. If she completes the trifecta in similar fashion, that will honestly strain belief; master assassin or no, no one in GRRM's world is that infallible.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

I did not like this episode at all.

People leaving character to create conflict. Lots of short cuts by writers. Disappointment.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cbrrider said:


> At least Ghost lives ... for now.


When they showed him, I swear I thought I could hear photoshopgrl cheering...


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Jon is standing with a huge crowd getting to ready to burn bodies, steps forward and gives his speech to the crowd... while facing away from them?

Was he just speaking to the dead bodies?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Which one of you cowards S*It my pants?

Best. Line. Ever.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I still think Arya will kill Cersi (the same way she got to Frey).


I was 100% on that (and Cersei has green eyes) but the new Jaime angle has me down to only 80% sure...


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I wanted to see more of a goodbye between Jon and Ghost. That pissed me off.
> As soon as Messandre and Grey Worm were holding hands and smiling, I knew all hell was going to break loose.
> Love that the Arya & The Hound Road Show is back.
> I spied Podrick leaving the room with a girl on each arm.
> ...


All of this!!

Jon was a real stinker to Ghost. No pets. Nothing. 
I am hopeful that Tormund will treat him better.

Speaking of... how cute was it when he was crying over Brienne.

I was on team Brienne/Jaime, and he ruined it. I can see him cutting all ties to run off to help fight / kill his sister... didn't think of it at the time. Hoping that is his motivation, and not returning to his sister's side.

Dany was an idiot to park her dragon mere feet from all of those huge crossbows. Sad to see how easily they were hit upon arrival in King's Landing... then to leave Drogon wide open while they present small forces and ask for everything! What the heck?! Everyone knew Cersei was not going to agree.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

SullyND said:


> I didn't understand the point of the whole dragon dive-bomb... I figured she caused them to use all their arrows, and the reload time would give her a chance to torch some ships, but it seemed all for nothing.


Also, why wouldn't she just take a wide turn and approach the ships from the rear and then burn them? Even if those weapons could be turned 180 degrees it would take a minute, and even then they wouldn't do well firing through the masts.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125302824634445824


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> Question is what the hell is Jaime hoping to do riding into King's Landing?





getbak said:


> Add "Queenslayer" and "Kinslayer" to his resume in one final act of heroism that no one will ever understand.


With only two episodes left there is only one thing I would bet the house on - Jaime kills Cersei. Theon got his redemption arc and Jaime gets his. They will be alone together, just like he was with the Mad King, and the only thing I'm not sure of is if he sticks her from the back or front. I'd say front just so he can be looking right into her eyes. All the while knowing he's killing his own baby.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> With only two episodes left there is only one thing I would bet the house on - Jaime kills Cersei. Theon got his redemption arc and Jaime gets his. They will be alone together, just like he was with the Mad King, and the only thing I'm not sure of is if he sticks her from the back or front. I'd say front just so he can be looking right into her eyes. All the while knowing he's killing his own baby.


That speech Jaime gave Brienne made it seem like he was going back to join Circe, not kill her. He basically said he has done and would do anything for Cersei.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

morac said:


> That speech Jaime gave Brienne made it seem like he was going back to join Circe, not kill her. He basically said he has done and would do anything for Cersei.


Because everything is always what it seems to be right?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The writers did Brienne a disservice by having her break down on Jaime's exit.

Lena Headey should win an Emmy for Best B*tch Face by a Leading Actress

The Mountain in zombie form is the biggest disappointment of a character to me. His name is prophetic in that he moves about as much as a mountain does whenever he's on screen. The Clegane Bowl might end up being the worst most anticipated fight ever.

I hope Arya doesn't end up killing Cercei. Kind of diminishes the importance of all the other characters if only one does the two most important things.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> That speech Jaime gave Brienne made it seem like he was going back to join Circe, not kill her. He basically said he has done and would do anything for Cersei.


Again, I think that was an act to prevent Brienne from following him. The old Hollywood trope of the cruel-to-be-kind break-up.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Again, I think that was an act to prevent Brienne from following him. The old Hollywood trope of the cruel-to-be-kind break-up.


And we all know how well that turned out for Tyrion!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

If Jaime really believed it, it wouldn't have been so hard for him to say it.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Again, I think that was an act to prevent Brienne from following him. The old Hollywood trope of the cruel-to-be-kind break-up.


"It's not you, it's me."
Jamie may be "the stupid Lannister" but he knows Bronn will kill him if Cersei wins. (In fact, the only reason he's still alive is that Bronn thinks Dany will win).


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

morac said:


> That speech Jaime gave Brienne made it seem like he was going back to join Circe, not kill her. He basically said he has done and would do anything for Cersei.


I took it the exact opposite. Basically B**ch ruined my life.

-smak-


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I thought this was the best episode of the season. It brought back what was the best of GoT in the early seasons, characters talking to each other and not always behaving in a rational matter. These are flawed characters and always have been. It started in season 1 with Ned. How many bad decisions did he make that lead to his head being separated from his body? I think we, as an audience, put to much thought about the mistakes each character makes as if we expect our heroes (or villains) to be perfect. I don't want perfect.

Some random thoughts about last night...

Dany thinks she is so smart. Giving Gendry Storm's End and essentially forgiving his family for overthrowing hers. But, she still does not get it. She truly thinks she is just owed the Iron Throne by birthright. Even now, where that is no longer true, she still wants the Iron Throne. However, she has been slipping down the madness slope for awhile now. The loss of Rhegon and Messandi are basically the tipping point. She is full on her father now, a Mad Queen (maybe as mad as Cersei is.)

Jon, still a love struck idiot, who, like Ned, is too honorable for his own good. We get it, he doesn't want to rule. But, he has to realize that Dany is not a good ruler. 

Sansa once agains proves she is the pragmatic leader. Hey, maybe we should let our troops get some food and heal, and, who knows, maybe we can find some more troops somewhere. ("Hey Dany, do you know any Sellswords, you might have slept with in the past?") But, no, Dany has to take the Iron Throne right f'ing now! I believe, that Sansa was not going to tell Tyrion about Jon until the very end. She wanted to, but also wanted to honor her pledge to Jon. But, she realized that Tyron may be her (the Realm's) best hope to eliminate Dany.

Jamie leaving Brianne was harsh, but so true to his character. As much as he realizes his sister is a monster, he can't stop loving her and realizes he is a monster himself. My feeling is that he thinks he can, somehow, get to Cersei first and get her to safety where the two of them can live "happily ever after." I no longer believe Jamie is going to the one to kill Cersei, since the prophecy of the "little brother" was never shown in the series.

Did we just see the last of Tormund, Sam, Gilly, and Ghost? Seems like that was a good bye to their characters. I guess Sam & Gilly are still going to be at Winterfell, but Tormund and Ghost are headed back North, a place we have no reason to go in the last two episodes.

Tyrion and Varys discussion who should King/Queen was classic. Tyrion obviously believes in Dany and, despite what she has done lately, is still on her side. But, he is wavering. Varys, on the other hand, has never been about any one King/Queen. He has always said he "serves the Realm". He is not afraid to change allegiances if needed.

If Arya is the one to kill Cersei, I found one, will be disappointed. As others have said, she already killed the Night King. If the show runners have Arya being the savior again, it is will be a disappointment. On the other hand, could Arya be the one to kill Dany to save Jon?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, again, I think the rule of the most tragic outcome (to which this show so obviously subscribes!) says that Jon has to be the one to kill Dany...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> I took it the exact opposite. Basically B**ch ruined my life.


The speech was more about him then her. Brienne said he was a nice guy and Jaime basically gave tons of examples as to why he's not. Jaime's not an idiot, he knows the things Circe does are wrong. In the past he didn't care or just overlooked them. Does he care now? After all he only arrived right before the battle with the dead and left shortly afterwards.

I don't feel that Jaime will kill Circei, partially because she wouldn't likely let him and secondly because he loves her.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> Tyrion and Varys discussion who should King/Queen was classic. Tyrion obviously believes in Dany and, despite what she has done lately, is still on her side. But, he is wavering. Varys, on the other hand, has never been about any one King/Queen. He has always said he "serves the Realm". He is not afraid to change allegiances if needed.


This didn't play well for me. I thought Varys was completely _against _character.
From Day 1 he's been plotting with Illyrio to get a Targaryen back on the throne. He recruited Tyrion to the cause! Maybe he is all about the Realm, but he's from Essos anyway.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

MacThor said:


> This didn't play well for me. I thought Varys was completely _against _character.
> From Day 1 he's been plotting with Illyrio to get a Targaryen back on the throne. He recruited Tyrion to the cause! Maybe he is all about the Realm, but he's from Essos anyway.


How is getting Jon on the throne not getting a Targaryen on the throne?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

When Jamie stormed out on Cersei, and it looked like she might have the Mountain strike him down, his last words to her were "I don't believe you."

After Bronn confronted the Lannister Brothers, he believes her.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BTW all, Jon did not betray Dany, he didn't tell his sisters who he was.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> When Gendry asked Arya, I said out loud "that's not me." I was very happy that she used those words, after letting Gendry down gently first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I did the same thing!


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

SoBelle0 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125302824634445824


Is that a Starbucks cup?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> How is getting Jon on the throne not getting a Targaryen on the throne?


Good point. I still don't think of him as one, so I guess it's hard for me to picture Varys thinking he should be King _on the day he finds out. _

I can still see an ending where Dany returns to Essos. They've made a very big deal this season about the Westerosi (and particularly the Northerners) not accepting this outsider. She even said last night - "people looked at me that way, too - but not since I crossed the sea."
She's very cognizant of it. She was "Mhysa" in Essos. She spent almost her entire life there.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is that a Starbucks cup?


I don't think that is from the episode.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> BTW all, Jon did not betray Dany, he didn't tell his sisters who he was.


True, but she did ask him to swear Bran and Sam to secrecy.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

getbak said:


> Add "Queenslayer" and "Kinslayer" to his resume in one final act of heroism that no one will ever understand.


This is one scenario I see. Jaime, having now found true love, knows he needs to rid himself of his other "true love" to give himself fully to Brianne. He knows his sister is evil. So one scenario is that he kills her as one final act of redemption. He started the story, and he can finish it.

The other scenario I see is that Sansa is the one to kill her, and sit on the throne (and I know that's a bit far fetched). She's her ultimate tormentor, and Sansa has become more fearless over the last few years. She's learned how to rule, has compassion and the people would love her. Do the sisters team up on her?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

MacThor said:


> True, but she did ask him to swear Bran and Sam to secrecy.


Indeed, I was mostly joking but just remembered that he didn't actually tell them 

Bran also did tell Jon that it was his choice.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I was 100% on that (and Cersei has green eyes) but the new Jaime angle has me down to only 80% sure...


She will do it as Jaimie. Or does Jaimie need to be dead to use his face?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is that a Starbucks cup?


Yeah I went back and looked, someone is being clever, photo shopped or whatever.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

SullyND said:


> I didn't understand the point of the whole dragon dive-bomb... I figured she caused them to use all their arrows, and the reload time would give her a chance to torch some ships, but it seemed all for nothing.





smak said:


> Plus they turned their arrows towards the ships. A good time for some dragon time.
> 
> That scene confused me.
> 
> -smak-


For me at least, it seemed that Dany had pretty much just lost her s**t. When that happens, you lose rational thought. You could see it in her face.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

cbrrider said:


> The actor who played him died of pancreatic cancer. So, it never got resolved.


Actually I just read that the actor was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given a few months to live, but survived!


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MacThor said:


> This didn't play well for me. I thought Varys was completely _against _character.
> From Day 1 he's been plotting with Illyrio to get a Targaryen back on the throne. He recruited Tyrion to the cause! Maybe he is all about the Realm, but he's from Essos anyway.


I wonder if Varys now is "done" with Dany as she's not the rightful heir to the throne, and realizes that in order for the "rightful" king to take the throne, he needs to first get rid of Cersei and then get rid of Dany. Ultimately that will be his plot. How he'll instigate this, I'm just not sure.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except Cersei was careful to stand behind her, and her hands were tied in front of her.
> 
> Interesting that Missandei's dying word was basically telling Dany to burn them all, burn them all.


But to not even try?

I know Missandei isn't some fighter extraordinare, but a little drop, wrap your legs around her and roll might have been worth a try. 

I totally get her "DRACARUS!" yell. Peace and playing nice is fine and dandy until you're about to get beheaded.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> But to not even try?
> 
> I know Missandei isn't some fighter extraordinare, but a little drop, wrap your legs around her and roll might have been worth a try.
> 
> I totally get her "DRACARUS!" yell. Peace and playing nice is fine and dandy until you're about to get beheaded.


She didn't yell "MIKE PENCE"!


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Am I the only one who never saw the chemistry between Jaimie and Brienne? It felt more like fan service to me.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> How do you march (or fly) to a battle without resting your troops from the last one, and without getting scouting reports as to what's going on with your enemy? They were completely blindsided, and it's their own fault.


The lack of scouts/scouting was silly, yes. Especially when you have dragons. Sheesh, it would take what... 30 minutes to fly around and approach from the non-obviously side and check things out?

But the march to battle isn't that big a deal to me. The fight they just had was one day. No marching to it, no prolonged battle. The people unscathed would be tired but a few night's rest and they're ok. The injured don't go.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cbrrider said:


> Good thing Cersei took that refresher course in archery hand signals or Tyrion would have sprouted a bunch of inadvertent arrows.


I honestly was thinking that Cersei was going to lower her hand in a way that some of the archers, later in the day, would be sitting over dinner saying "I really thought she wanted us to fire."


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Am I the only one who never saw the chemistry between Jaimie and Brienne? It felt more like fan service to me.


I'd say it's not just you, but you're in the minority. They've been giving each other longing looks for several seasons.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> The lack of scouts/scouting was silly, yes. Especially when you have dragons. Sheesh, it would take what... 30 minutes to fly around and approach from the non-obviously side and check things out?
> 
> But the march to battle isn't that big a deal to me. The fight they just had was one day. No marching to it, no prolonged battle. The people unscathed would be tired but a few night's rest and they're ok. The injured don't go.


Dany is so focused on getting her rightful throne that she's lost all focus on how to actually accomplish it. We've seen it more than once. Remember she had to be talked into fighting the Night King. She was always pushing for ways to get across the sea (river? channel?) faster than she should. She's at the point where she could TASTE it. She want's no delays. She's never been a patient sort. And now it's REALLY hurting her. This is totally in character for her.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Am I the only one who never saw the chemistry between Jaimie and Brienne? It felt more like fan service to me.


I agree, they should have kept it as friendly respect not a love twist.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I'd say it's not just you, but you're in the minority. They've been giving each other longing looks for several seasons.


Although this is true as well, it wasn't out of no where. I guess I'm kind of indifferent.

I'm just disappointed if his words were true and just like that he is back to Cercei, if they are going with the Jamie/Brienne love thing I really hope he's just giving her the lines to make her stay back and he isn't really returning to Cercei.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I still think Arya will kill Cersi (the same way she got to Frey).


I hope she uses The Mountain's face. She comes in four feet shorter than The Mountain and kills Cersei in her confusion.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I really think Dany goes full Targaryan, and somebody (Jon would be the most tragic candidate) has to kill her to save everybody else.
> 
> I think you're wrong...I think he was pretending that because he knows he's going to die in whatever plan he has, and he needed to break off his ties to Brienne both for her sake and his.


I fear you're right on the first comment and I hope you're right on the second.



cheesesteak said:


> Sansa is a snitch. So much for her word meaning anything and she's been reduced to being petty and jealous towards Dany.
> 
> Cercei is stupid. She had a zillion archers and and dragon-bows on the wall and didn't wipe out Dany and friends who stupidly confronted her. Cercei is going to fight Dany anyway. Might as well decapitate her leadership when given this golden opportunity.


Sansa pissed me off by telling him after swearing she wouldn't but I do see the reasoning.



Anubys said:


> When they showed him, I swear I thought I could hear photoshopgrl cheering...


You did hear me!!! My shining moment in the series see Ghost alive and realizing he may survive the series!



SoBelle0 said:


> All of this!!
> 
> Jon was a real stinker to Ghost. No pets. Nothing.
> I am hopeful that Tormund will treat him better.
> ...


Yes I did no like the goodbye with Ghost. Jon you are a terrible pet owner!

Why the hell did they have Drogon just off in the near distance still very much in shot of those scorpions while they were trying to negotiate with her? Lord I was holding my breath waiting on them to behead Missandei and then fire at Drogon the next instant.



TriBruin said:


> However, she has been slipping down the madness slope for awhile now. The loss of Rhegon and Messandi are basically the tipping point. She is full on her father now, a Mad Queen (maybe as mad as Cersei is.)
> 
> Sansa once agains proves she is the pragmatic leader. Hey, maybe we should let our troops get some food and heal, and, who knows, maybe we can find some more troops somewhere. ("Hey Dany, do you know any Sellswords, you might have slept with in the past?") But, no, Dany has to take the Iron Throne right f'ing now! I believe, that Sansa was not going to tell Tyrion about Jon until the very end. She wanted to, but also wanted to honor her pledge to Jon. But, she realized that Tyron may be her (the Realm's) best hope to eliminate Dany.


Dany snapped at the end. The first thing I said was "she's about to full on find a way to torch that place" and I believe she will. Mad Queen indeed and to be honest I don't blame her. I know everyone has lost a lot but Dany has lost just about everything in a blink of an eye.

And I agree they were all idiots for not insisting a break before marching south. I can't even wrap my brain around that stupidity to be quite honest so I'm going to just ignore it.



Family said:


> I did not like this episode at all.
> 
> People leaving character to create conflict. Lots of short cuts by writers. Disappointment.


I'm waiting it out but between the following things, if something doesn't change it before the finale I'm going to be left quite upset:
Jaime - 7+ seasons of character developement just to have him run back to Cercei? REALLY?
Arya - "My name is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home" 5 minutes later without saying goodbye to anyone "I'm not going back to Winterfell ever again"
Sansa - "I'm super grateful to be abused and raped in the past or I wouldn't be a strong woman today!" VOMIT did they really do that wowowowowow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I wonder if Varys now is "done" with Dany as she's not the rightful heir to the throne, and realizes that in order for the "rightful" king to take the throne, he needs to first get rid of Cersei and then get rid of Dany. Ultimately that will be his plot. How he'll instigate this, I'm just not sure.


Varys has never cared about who is the rightful heir; just who will bring peace and stability.

And it is becoming abundantly clear Dany isn't the one.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125302824634445824


Haha!

And the cup has "Darryl" written on it.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah, I think you are all correct about Dany, she's totally going to go off the rails.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah, I think you are all correct about Dany, she's totally going to go off the rails.


Yeah, she's lost Jorah and Missandei, two of the long-time humanizing factors in her life. She doesn't trust Tyrion, who has been another. And she's alienating Jon, who is maybe the biggest one. He is resisting, still standing by her, but I bet soon she pushes him past his limits.

Losing two dragons is just the icing on the crazy cake.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

I've figured out the showrunner's clever plan for this last season: Make the writing so bad and the shows so long and boring that when the end finally comes everyone will be happy to see it go .


----------



## cl8855 (Jan 2, 2009)

re: cersei just shooting them up outside the gates, I think the distances of the shot were deceiving, especially of the dragon

they didn't draw bows on tyrion until he was quite a ways forward, so I assume that the others were further out than it appeared. but who knows, they should have just rode them down


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Am I the only one who never saw the chemistry between Jaimie and Brienne? It felt more like fan service to me.


Zip, zero, nada. It didn't feel right at all.

So we have Arya with the "Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, Green Eyes" deal. I think it comes true. But yeah, if she kills Cersei the entire fate of the world was set by Arya not once but twice. Seems phony.

Who else has green eyes? Sansa? *evil laugh*


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Cercei is stupid. She had a zillion archers and and dragon-bows on the wall and didn't wipe out Dany and friends who stupidly confronted her. Cercei is going to fight Dany anyway. Might as well decapitate her leadership when given this golden opportunity.


Dany and friends stopped out of range of arrows. Although we did see that dragon-bows were not just for dragons.



photoshopgrl said:


> Why the hell did they have Drogon just off in the near distance still very much in shot of those scorpions while they were trying to negotiate with her? Lord I was holding my breath waiting on them to behead Missandei and then fire at Drogon the next instant.


I think the writers were pretending that was out of range for the scorpions.



photoshopgrl said:


> Jaime - 7+ seasons of character developement just to have him run back to Cercei? REALLY?
> Arya - "My name is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home" 5 minutes later without saying goodbye to anyone "I'm not going back to Winterfell ever again"


Jaime -- to kill her.
Arya -- because it's a suicide run.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> And I agree they were all idiots for not insisting a break before marching south. I can't even wrap my brain around that stupidity to be quite honest so I'm going to just ignore it.


How many people who had commanded armies or advised kings and queens on military strategy were in that room and _Sansa_ was the voice of reason? Grey Worm was going to rush the tired, wounded, hungry Unsullied back into battle with no objection or counter proposal?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Dany is so focused on getting her rightful throne that she's lost all focus on how to actually accomplish it. We've seen it more than once. Remember she had to be talked into fighting the Night King. She was always pushing for ways to get across the sea (river? channel?) faster than she should. She's at the point where she could TASTE it. She want's no delays. She's never been a patient sort. And now it's REALLY hurting her. This is totally in character for her.


I think you're taking the mad queen thing a bit far.

We'll know for sure at 9:03pm EST next Sunday.

Of course she's pissed right now watching a friend beheaded and a baby (dragon) killed. I'm holding out that she doesn't act rash and stews with her anger a bit and formulates a plan. A mad queen would mount her dragon and DRACARUS all over the place in the first three minutes of the next episode.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cl8855 said:


> re: cersei just shooting them up outside the gates, I think the distances of the shot were deceiving, especially of the dragon
> 
> they didn't draw bows on tyrion until he was quite a ways forward, so I assume that the others were further out than it appeared. but who knows, they should have just rode them down


Yeah, the dragon was safely out of range. <-- my take.

We've all watched enough of this genre to know that these pre-battle talk scenes always have the approaching party stop right where arrows would land harmlessly three feet in front of them.

Now when Tyrion went closer... I thought he was a goner.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

If Tyrion killed Tywin on Father's Day, which mother dies this Sunday? Hmmm...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> How many people who had commanded armies or advised kings and queens on military strategy were in that room and _Sansa_ was the voice of reason? Grey Worm was going to rush the tired, wounded, hungry Unsullied back into battle with no objection or counter proposal?


The fight was one night -- just a few hours. Y'all have seen enough movies and read enough history that armies march and fight for months/years on end sometimes. And they didn't necessarily leave the next morning I don't believe. They left soon, for sure. But for those uninjured they'd be fine after a few days' rest.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

tomhorsley said:


> I've figured out the showrunner's clever plan for this last season: Make the writing so bad and the shows so long and boring that when the end finally comes everyone will be happy to see it go .


Really? I thought that outside of about the first 15 minutes of this past episode, the season has been far from boring. To each their own I guess.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> If Tyrion killed Tywin on Father's Day, which mother dies this Sunday? Hmmm...


Starts with a C?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tlc said:


> Jaime -- to kill her.
> Arya -- because it's a suicide run.


Jaime - I hope that's right which is why I'm not ranting too much but I do honestly think they just killed his character development and that's not what he'll do. Arya - I get that but for her to not even say goodbye to anyone after everything? Especially Jon who she's just been reunited with after so many years. Nah.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't blame Dany for being pissed and eventually going off the deep end. She's wanted and believed that she's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Queen Of The Seven Kingdoms. She's fought wars, conquered enemies, freed slaves, raised dragons and all of a sudden her boyfriend says "Psych! I'm really the rightful heir and if you don't believe me, just ask my best friend and my brother." Now she's lost two dragons dealing with these Northeners and is going to spend the next couple of episodes getting stabbed in the back because Jon couldn't adhere to the age old "Loose lips sink ships" saying. 

If there were another season in the works, I could see Sansa getting the throne and becoming Cercei jr.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Starts with a C?


She's not a mother.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't blame Dany for being pissed and eventually going off the deep end. She's wanted and believed that she's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Queen Of The Seven Kingdoms. She's fought wars, conquered enemies, freed slaves, raised dragons and all of a sudden her boyfriend says "Psych! I'm really the rightful heir and if you don't believe me, just ask my best friend and my brother." Now she's lost two dragons dealing with these Northeners and is going to spend the next couple of episodes getting stabbed in the back because Jon couldn't adhere to the age old "Loose lips sink ships" saying.


THIS. Thank you. I swear I'm team burn it down at this moment. Never thought that day would come. Maybe it's just me feeling her sorrow over losing 2 dragons, all her closest friends that were basically family and the final blow that Jon, after she begged him literally!, still insisted he tell his family whom she knows can't stand her. Yeah she snapped you saw it on her face. She's about to do something really really rash if not stopped quickly and I don't see that happening now.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I guess I'm the only one who got annoyed at how quickly crossbows (and dragon killing ballista) were reloaded. Once Bron shot his, Jaime and Tyrion would have had a lot of time (at least 15 seconds) while he reloaded. Jaime could have smacked him side the head about five times with his metal hand. And why the heck is Bron even in this story any more. That served no purpose that I can figure out. They could have just not brought his character back and spent another 20 minutes of screen time on other people with stories to tell. (I'm including the scene where Bron is sent on his quest in the 20 mintues.)

And the Ballista? Seriously to store enough energy to shoot those bolts as hard as they did would have taken a lot longer. Why did the first dragon sit there and get shot three accurate times from single shots? Why did the second dragon somehow survice a whole fleet (literally) of shots? Why were they firing single shots to begin with? Cheap writing.

Also Ghost survives. We'll never see him again. The CGI was expensive for the direwolves and last night they wrote him off the show for all intents and purposes (IMO). I also felt that Jon not saying goodbye to him was another crappy piece of writing. (Along with Cercei not just firing everything they had at the host in front of the walls and taking out the dragon, Dany and a bunch of other major figures in her enemy. I mean seriously, she isn't the type to stand on ceremony when it comes to honoring rules of behavior. Have all the wall mounted ballista shoot at the dragon and then say "What dragon?")

I feel like with six episodes left the producers took the list of things left to do and started assigning tasks. OK we need to get the NK done by EP3. Then we have to get to King's Landing. Make sure we add some melodrama there after the NK battle. Just get it done, we're almost out of here!


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Really? I thought that outside of about the first 15 minutes of this past episode, the season has been far from boring. To each their own I guess.


I wouldn't use the word boring, but I do think this was probably the worst episode of the series. Lots of filming short-cuts, cheap storytelling tricks, ridiculous moments, cloying character developments, etc.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> She's not a mother.


Well she's BEEN a mother (and lost all her children) and is a once and future mother as well.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I wouldn't use the word boring, but I do think this was probably the worst episode of the series. Lots of filming short-cuts, cheap storytelling tricks, ridiculous moments, cloying character developments, etc.


While I agree, somewhat, this should have been another bridge episode, and the stuff with Ceirce and shooting the dragon should have started next week. I think a lot of the stuff at the beginning (the whole celebration and burning of the bodies stuff), they could have done away with and not lose much. I do feel that there is a lot to determine and that they are somewhat rushing things. But with that said, boring is not what I'd call this. And as "bad" as you say it is, it's still better than most anything else on TV. If they get the ending "right" (not necessarily the way I might want it to end, but that it makes sense, and it's well done) than I can live with the bit of a rush job. We'll see how that goes.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

jakerock said:


> And why the heck is Bron even in this story any more. That served no purpose that I can figure out.


I think it was just a goodbye. And the easiest way to leave him out of the rest was to revert him to a sell sword a**hole. (I would've liked to have seen him come on board.)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Varys has never cared about who is the rightful heir; just who will bring peace and stability.
> 
> And it is becoming abundantly clear Dany isn't the one.


I want to expand on this a little. Recall on DragonStone the conversation Dany had with Varys about him changing allegiances and that Varys promised her that he would tell her whenever he changes his mind and finds someone better. I wonder if Varys will do that and, if so, Dany will let him leave and join Jon.

I think Dany will lay waste to King's Landing and Jon will reach the city too late to do anything but disavow Dany. I also think Drogon will die.

Sansa cannot kill Cersei except by proxy. She is thousands of miles away.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I want to expand on this a little. Recall on DragonStone the conversation Dany had with Varys about him changing allegiances and that Varys promised her that he would tell her whenever he changes his mind and finds someone better. I wonder if Varys will do that and, if so, Dany will let him leave and join Jon.


Maybe he'll tell her right after the poison kicks in.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Visions of the Red Keep in ashes that Dany and Bran has had still has to happen right?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Updates in *bold:*


MacThor said:


> Game Reset - Seven Kingdoms:
> 
> North - Stark, pledged to Daenerys *for now...*
> Iron Islands & Riverlands - This one is kind of messy. I believe the Tullys were the ruling house after the Greyjoy Rebellion. (?) Edmure is still alive but hasn't been seen since Jaime used him to surrender Riverrun back to the Freys. Now the Freys are dead. I don't think Jaime's forces killed anyone but the Blackfish at Riverrun. Obviously the Islanders are divided, but Euron has the majority over Yara. *Yara if Cersei is defeated. Euron if not, with Bronn at Riverrun?*
> ...


I mostly just posted the update because I nailed my half-joking Gendry prediction. 

It was rightly pointed out at the war council meeting that Cersei has NO allies other than Euron. If she were to prevail in _this _war, Westeros would probably be constantly at war (against her) for the rest of her reign.

The more I think about it, I could see Dany & Cersei destroying Kings Landing - which, I believe was the seat of power _established by the Targaryens in the first place._ The Iron Throne no longer rules all of Westeros, and they revert back to the Seven Kingdoms ruled independently - and hopefully somewhat peacefully.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> While I agree, somewhat, this should have been another bridge episode, and the stuff with Ceirce and shooting the dragon should have started next week. I think a lot of the stuff at the beginning (the whole celebration and burning of the bodies stuff), they could have done away with and not lose much. I do feel that there is a lot to determine and that they are somewhat rushing things. But with that said, boring is not what I'd call this. And as "bad" as you say it is, it's still better than most anything else on TV. If they get the ending "right" (not necessarily the way I might want it to end, but that it makes sense, and it's well done) than I can live with the bit of a rush job. We'll see how that goes.


I did expect and hope for an entire post-battle episode almost entirely at Winterfell. I wanted a bit more story-telling by the characters. Tormund describing his kills, people whispering about Arya's skills. I even wanted to see Bran tell Sansa and Arya about Jon's family tree and hear it in his words and see their reaction. I would have liked more than 2 minutes of battle planning, more than a phrase about many soldiers were left.

It did feel like they fast-forwarded through some stuff I would have enjoyed. I didn't need any more killing this week.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> While I agree, somewhat, this should have been another bridge episode, and the stuff with Ceirce and shooting the dragon should have started next week. I think a lot of the stuff at the beginning (the whole celebration and burning of the bodies stuff), they could have done away with and not lose much. I do feel that there is a lot to determine and that they are somewhat rushing things. But with that said, boring is not what I'd call this. And as "bad" as you say it is, it's still better than most anything else on TV. If they get the ending "right" (not necessarily the way I might want it to end, but that it makes sense, and it's well done) than I can live with the bit of a rush job. We'll see how that goes.


I preferred the early parts. But maybe them existing is what made the later parts terrible. The show as a whole is still better than most anything else on TV, though as far as "worst episode of the best tv shows" it doesn't do too well.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

This was by far my favorite episode of the season. It feel like the show is back after two episodes that were a miss and one overdone battle episode where I couldn't see anything.

I think next week is going to give us the capture of King's landing and the death of Cersei. The final episode will be Jon versus Dany, with Jon being the winner. There can only be one.

The next episode will truly show us how nuts Dany has become. It's clear she lost Varys's support this episode and is close to losing Tyron's support. People at the great dinner didn't even care about her, they all naturally supported Jon. "_Maybe the best leader is someone who doesn't want to be King_".

Jaime will attempt to save his sister by convincing her to leave before the battle. She'll have him killed. He can't possibly be the one to kill her, if she is carrying his child. He's an idiot and will die a pointless death, but it will be his redemption.

Arya is going to fail while infiltrating King's Landing and attempting to assassinate Cersei. She's already responsible for too much plot resolution with the killing of the NK. While she is a fan favorite, it would be just too much to make her also responsible for taking out Cersei. Series needs a tragic death of a beloved character in the penultimate episode.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

After Bran told Sansa and Arya about Jon/Aegon, we don't know what else was discussed. Sansa and Arya called that meeting.
I have a feeling it was significant.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Am I the only one who never saw the chemistry between Jaimie and Brienne? It felt more like fan service to me.


I would say it was sort of like watching him sleep with his sister, but..........


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

People reading the supposed leaks/spoilers then coming here pretending they are original ideas is making me laugh. 

I really need to not see another dragon die ever. Both have been horrific and I'm not going to be able to watch again. I've only see Viserion go down that first original time and this episode I had to put my hand over my eyes after that first arrow. The sounds were bad enough.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BTW, I hated the Bronn scene. Bronn had nothing to prove, Cersei or Qyburn was not present.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

smak said:


> Plus they turned their arrows towards the ships. A good time for some dragon time.
> 
> That scene confused me.
> 
> -smak-


Dany is a terrible tactician. She had plenty of time to swoop around and burn them all. War over.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Jaime will attempt to save his sister by convincing her to leave before the battle. She'll have him killed. He can't possibly be the one to kill her, if she is carrying his child. He's an idiot and will die a pointless death, but it will be his redemption.
> 
> Arya is going to fail while infiltrating King's Landing and attempting to assassinate Cersei. She's already responsible for too much plot resolution with the killing of the NK. While she is a fan favorite, it would be just too much to make her also responsible for taking out Cersei. Series needs a tragic death of a beloved character in the penultimate episode.


I'm with ya.

They have to do something shocking. I do think Jaime and Arya both die.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> People reading the supposed leaks/spoilers then coming here pretending they are original ideas is making me laugh.


How do you know that's happening? I've not read anything (yet) outside this forum.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

"Vomiting is not celebrating." /Jon
"Yesss, it is." /Tormond


Hope there is some way we can get more Tormond - he had some great lines in this episode!


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

My WAG.

Arya won't kill Cersie. She's already the hero for killing the NK and that would be too much glory. Instead, Arya attempts to kill Cersie but fails and dies in the attempt.

Either Jamie or Tyrion or both kills Cersie and dies in the process.

Dany goes full mad queen and Jon is forced to kill her to save something something.

Jon returns to the north and Gendry Stone Baratheon takes the Iron Throne.


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## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Why does everyone believe Cersei is pregnant? It’s an easy ruse to manipulate stupid men (Jamie and Euron) or hopeful (Tyrion.)

I think Tyrion caught on finally after imploring her to think of her child.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> How do you know that's happening? I've not read anything (yet) outside this forum.


Second blanket statement @photoshopgrl makes. The first that people were "fibbing" that they knew Arya was going to kill the Night King.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, again, I think the rule of the most tragic outcome (to which this show so obviously subscribes!) says that Jon has to be the one to kill Dany...


Or we go full Romeo and Juliet and they both die. Leaving Sansa to rule.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> People reading the supposed leaks/spoilers then coming here pretending they are original ideas is making me laugh.


If this was directed at me, my Gendry "prediction" was purely speculation based on him being the only Baratheon heir. I don't read leaks/spoilers.

I actually thought it was a little bit of fan service when Dany asked "Does _anyone_ know who the current Lord of the Stormlands is?"


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Or we go full Romeo and Juliet and they both die. Leaving Sansa to rule.


I still think of Sansa as a weak character, full of self-doubt and not wanting to lead.

I get that she's less of those things now than she was, but I sure don't see her as a good ruler of anything outside of The North, where she'll have loyalty just based on Ned and others.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I really need to not see another dragon die ever. Both have been horrific and I'm not going to be able to watch again. I've only see Viserion go down that first original time and this episode I had to put my hand over my eyes after that first arrow. The sounds were bad enough.


You do realize this is just a tv show, right -- that they're not really killing dragons and it's just CGI? I have it on excellent authority that the two dragons that were supposedly killed are alive and well, living out the rest of their lives at a dragon farm in upstate New York.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Well she's BEEN a mother (and lost all her children) and is a once and future mother as well.


This bothers me. Just how long is a pregnancy in Westeros? Seems like forever since she was with Jamie.


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## jasrub (May 9, 2008)

photoshopgrl said:


> Maybe it's just me feeling her sorrow over losing 2 dragons, all her closest friends that were basically family and the final blow that Jon, after she begged him literally!


From my point of view, she really doesn't have friends or family.. Only people who get her what she wants. She's gathered up these armies and people, who she views, can get her the throne she believes she deserves. Why appoint advisers who you totally ignore if their advise goes against what you want? How many people told her to wait a while and let what little remaining forces she has to heal before she attacks again? She wants 'yes men', and if you don't agree with what she wants, she totally ignores you, to her own detriment.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> I still think of Sansa as a weak character, full of self-doubt and not wanting to lead.
> 
> I get that she's less of those things now than she was, but I sure don't see her as a good ruler of anything outside of The North, where she'll have loyalty just based on Ned and others.


And yet she has been the most level headed of any of the leaders recently despite her selling out Jon's secret to her ex(?)-husband.

In some ways, this show has been about her growth.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> And yet she has been the most level headed of any of the leaders recently despite her selling out Jon's secret to her ex(?)-husband.
> 
> In some ways, this show has been about her growth.


What you might see as level-headed, I see as wimpy, selfish, suspicious and purposefully contrarian. And a little catty. Perhaps it's both.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> This bothers me. Just how long is a pregnancy in Westeros? Seems like forever since she was with Jamie.


Hasn't been that long if Jaime was traveling at a good clip. The tricky part is that there's only a limited amount of time before she'd be showing so that would seem to narrow the time frame a bit. Maybe her and Euron prefer it super dark... like cinematographer dark.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Seen on Reddit and I agree with:



> In this episode the physics of how far, fast, and accurate scorpions can be shot and how fast they can be reloaded is greatly more fantastical than the existence of dragons...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Hasn't been that long if Jaime was traveling at a good clip. The tricky part is that there's only a limited amount of time before she'd be showing so that would seem to narrow the time frame a bit. Maybe her and Euron prefer it super dark... like cinematographer dark.


With realistic travel times, it's been at least a year, probably a couple now (remember that Jaime's trip to and from Highgarden were with an army, which can only travel at a human walking pace).

But since the show has moved beyond the books (Martin cares about this kind of thing), they've gotten very...24 on travel times.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I just wish the show has done something to show why Sansa is so brazen to Dany. I guess the only thing that makes sense is that she's the new Littlefinger and is reaping chaos to climb her station higher.
Like I get Sansa being pissed at Jon throwing away his title of "King of the North" because it insults the people of the north that gave it to him and I could see Sansa more mad at Jon for doing that, but focusing her hate with laser precision at Dany makes little sense little sense considering how Dany was right when she said Jon convinced her to put off her plans to take the throne for his war against the Night King. Also Arya was right that the north needed Dany's army and dragons to fight with them so he did the right thing at the right time but following Dany. But fighting for the life of all man kind is one thing, fighting for a fancy throne thousands of miles away is another.

I don't know. Writing seems so sloppy and rushed.
Like Sams dad and brother, Dany offered to spare their lives and keep their titles if they pledged to her.. She made them a deal they couldn't and shouldn't have refused but they did anyway so when Sam hears how she killed them he runs to Jon about how shes dangerous and we're all supposed to start turning against Dany. It feels so heavy handed and nothing like the first 5 seasons of this show.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> With realistic travel times, it's been at least a year, probably a couple now (remember that Jaime's trip to and from Highgarden were with an army, which can only travel at a human walking pace).
> 
> But since the show has moved beyond the books (Martin cares about this kind of thing), they've gotten very...24 on travel times.


That's assuming we believe it's his baby and was conceived before he left for the battle there. In theory if she became pregnant shortly before telling Jaime then it's only been since he went to Winterfell no?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> That's assuming we believe it's his baby and was conceived before he left for the battle there. In theory if she became pregnant shortly before telling Jaime then it's only been since he went to Winterfell no?


I think she's using Ye Olde Royal Pillow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> That's assuming we believe it's his baby and was conceived before he left for the battle there. In theory if she became pregnant shortly before telling Jaime then it's only been since he went to Winterfell no?


No, she told him upon his return from Highgarden.

At that point, with realistic travel times, she should already have been showing.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

All this talk of Jon being a better ruler than Dany isn't rooted in facts. 

- The fact is he failed miserably at convincing Mance Rayder and the Free Folk to follow him (saving grace: Stannis). 
- The fact is he failed miserably at convincing his people to follow his leadership as Lord Commander of the Night Watch (saving grace: Melisandre). 
- The fact is he failed miserably at the Battle of the Bastards (saving grace: Sansa/Littlefinger). 
- The fact is he failed miserably in the Battle of Winterfell (saving grace: Arya)


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

In the recap scenes they made a point of showing Jaime and Cersei hooking up, and Cersei telling Jaime that she would tell the world that he was the father. The next scene was Euron telling Cersei he was going to put a Prince in her belly. They wouldn't have done it if it wasn't important. I wanted them to show Euron's "Wait...what?" face while Tyrion was talking about her baby, but they didn't show it. I am sure it will be important in the next episode.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

robojerk said:


> I just wish the show has done something to show why Sansa is so brazen to Dany. I guess the only thing that makes sense is that she's the new Littlefinger and is reaping chaos to climb her station higher.


From her perspective, Dany is a foreign invader. These northerners don't even want to be ruled by the south, let alone be ruled by someone else entirely. I'd wager she's not the only one in Jon's circle saying "WTF?" Now that she knows Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, it's worthy of a double-WTF.

Yes, Dany did help them save the world, but Dany sorta saved herself as well. These were people fighting against a common enemy, and now that the common enemy is gone, the old rivalries return.



robojerk said:


> She made them a deal they couldn't and shouldn't have refused but they did anyway so when Sam hears how she killed them he runs to Jon about how shes dangerous and we're all supposed to start turning against Dany. It feels so heavy handed and nothing like the first 5 seasons of this show.


It does feel rushed, but to me the current intrigue is exactly like the first 5 seasons. Lots of players with different motivations.

This isn't the sort of series that I expect to wrap everything up in a nice happy ending, with Jon and Dany sitting content on side-by-side thrones.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> BTW, I hated the Bronn scene. Bronn had nothing to prove, Cersei or Qyburn was not present.


I think Bronn was just tired of being jerked around. He keeps doing their bidding and being promised a castle and land; but it keeps getting taken away from him for the "next" castle and land. Now he has the gold but he doesn't want to kill them. Still, he wants a final deal, or else. I thought it was within Bronn's range to be pissed as heck at all of them...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, she told him upon his return from Highgarden.
> 
> At that point, with realistic travel times, she should already have been showing.


That's most likely what they want the audience to assume given that they showed them together before Highgarden. I'm just noting that most of the timeline craziness would have been with Highgarden. It doesn't seem to have been that long since she informed him. They said someone could make the journey to Winterfell in a week or so unencumbered. Not sure how long the Winterfell to Dragonstone to KL journey would take but one can assume under a month since that's how long it took to go on foot slowly in the first season.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> What you might see as level-headed, I see as wimpy, selfish, suspicious and purposefully contrarian. And a little catty. Perhaps it's both.


Oh, we don't see that behavior from anybody else, do we?


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't blame Dany for being pissed and eventually going off the deep end. She's wanted and believed that she's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Queen Of The Seven Kingdoms. She's fought wars, conquered enemies, freed slaves, raised dragons and all of a sudden her boyfriend says "Psych! I'm really the rightful heir and if you don't believe me, just ask my best friend and my brother." Now she's lost two dragons dealing with these Northeners and is going to spend the next couple of episodes getting stabbed in the back because Jon couldn't adhere to the age old "Loose lips sink ships" saying.


It seems I am in the minority, but have no patience for Dany's thirst for power, after having declared her platform being for the people. She could have attained those "goals" with Jon as king.

Gaining the throne back that was rightfully hers should have meant "her family" and Jon was certainly that (too close for my liking).

I get the emotion of losing dragons, but jeez. Her boyfriend what? She couldn't ask for better. Stabbed in the back? The northerners were right. They shouldn't have marched. Jon trusting his family when he shouldn't? Yes that's Jon's biggest fault (other than being your half brother).

Dany's not the rightful heir. Whose fault is that? Poor thing should burn the city because of it!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh, we don't see that behavior from anybody else, do we?


About half of them.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think Bronn was just tired of being jerked around. He keeps doing their bidding and being promised a castle and land; but it keeps getting taken away from him for the "next" castle and land. Now he has the gold but he doesn't want to kill them. Still, he wants a final deal, or else. I thought it was within Bronn's range to be pissed as heck at all of them...


I think he wants *two* final deals. One from each side.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

My wife and I were saying after this episode that we've spent the whole series learning that Jaime is not so bad as he originally seemed, and now we're spending the last few episodes (and some of last season) learning that Dany is not a good as she originally seemed. It was fine for her to be so single-minded when she believed she was the rightful heir to the throne. Now that she knows the truth, she's just jealous, power-hungry and selfish.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

You gotta cut her some slack. She's no longer the rightful heir because she lacks a penis. Which is BS...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> That's most likely what they want the audience to assume given that they showed them together before Highgarden. I'm just noting that most of the timeline craziness would have been with Highgarden. It doesn't seem to have been that long since she informed him. They said someone could make the journey to Winterfell in a week or so unencumbered. Not sure how long the Winterfell to Dragonstone to KL journey would take but one can assume under a month since that's how long it took to go on foot slowly in the first season.


That was several months...


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

I read most of this thread (whew, lot's of activity!!!)...

One question that I am not sure was answered was... Why didn't Dany lay waste to the fleet that just killed her dragon??? Seems like she was charging right at them, and she's riding a friggin' fire breathing dragon!!! I don't get it...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

After she saw how easily they got to Rhaegal, she ran (flew) for the hills (clouds).


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> You gotta cut her some slack. She's no longer the rightful heir because she lacks a penis. Which is BS...


I'm not clear on who is who's father? Was her father the prior king or Jon's? If her father was the king, I would agree with you. If Jon's father was the prior king, then he would be next in line. If I have this right, Jon's father was Dany's brother, which would put her closer to the throne as Jon is one more generation removed from the prior king than is Dany. If succession runs through the male line (which I agree is BS), then Jon would be the heir as the only living male. Too confusing and too paternalistic.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Dany is the Mad King's third child and if she were a man, she would be next in line.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Dany is the Mad King's third child and if she were a man, she would be next in line.


No, it would still be Jon. His father was Dany's older brother.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> I think he wants *two* final deals. One from each side.


Exactly


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> You gotta cut her some slack. She's no longer the rightful heir because she lacks a penis. Which is BS...


The system begins with birth rights so of course it's BS.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> You gotta cut her some slack. She's no longer the rightful heir because she lacks a penis. Which is BS...


False, it's because Jon's Daddy (Her older brother) was next in line, the line of succession follows him and his children. Has nothing to do with his sex.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> After she saw how easily they got to Rhaegal, she ran (flew) for the hills (clouds).


Hmm... Still seems odd to me... She was in a dive going right at them... Even if this was not an offensive move on her part, a stream of fire from her dragon would be a good defense against getting hit as she fled the scene...

Anyway, I guess I will accept the "she fled scared" reason... I have no other choice...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MikeekiM said:


> I read most of this thread (whew, lot's of activity!!!)...
> 
> One question that I am not sure was answered was... Why didn't Dany lay waste to the fleet that just killed her dragon??? Seems like she was charging right at them, and she's riding a friggin' fire breathing dragon!!! I don't get it...





gossamer88 said:


> After she saw how easily they got to Rhaegal, she ran (flew) for the hills (clouds).


I asked that myself. She charged right for them so I don't think it's because she saw how easily they took down Rhaegal. Also why she didn't just turn about and roast them from behind is beyond me.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it would still be Jon. His father was Dany's older brother.


So you're saying the line of succession would be...
Rhaegar
Jon
Viserys
Dany (Man)

That is eff'd up...


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I really think the writers dropped the ball on this episode. Could they have made Dany and everyone with her look any dumber? Heading south with no plan, not frying the Iron Fleet when she had the chance, confronting Cersie with most of her top people with her? (still don't get why Cersie didn't kill them all there and then) Just dumb on all sides.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> So you're saying the line of succession would be...
> Rhaegar
> Jon
> Viserys
> ...


Nobody said it was fair...

Have a look at this, Succession to the British throne - Wikipedia


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

nirisahn said:


> I really think the writers dropped the ball on this episode. Could they have made Dany and everyone with her look any dumber? Heading south with no plan, not frying the Iron Fleet when she had the chance, confronting Cersie with most of her top people with her? (still don't get why Cersie didn't kill them all there and then) Just dumb on all sides.


Agree. They easily outnumbered the Unsullied. For the first time you can freeze the frame and count how many she had left.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> So you're saying the line of succession would be...
> Rhaegar
> Jon
> Viserys
> ...


How is that eff'd up? Rhaegar was Aerys's eldest son, so he's next. Jon is Rhaegar's eldest son, so he's next. Viserys is Aerys's second son, so he's next. Daenerys is Aerys's daughter (and third child), so she's last.

If she were male, it wouldn't change anything.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Nobody said it was fair...
> 
> Have a look at this, Succession to the British throne - Wikipedia


Note Princess Charlotte is 4th, and Prince Edward is way down there at 11.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Nobody said it was fair...
> 
> Have a look at this, Succession to the British throne - Wikipedia


Prince Harry really got screwed...LOL!


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

In fact there are two women above Prince Edward


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bla57y


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> How is that eff'd up? Rhaegar was Aerys's eldest son, so he's next. Jon is Rhaegar's eldest son, so he's next. Viserys is Aerys's second son, so he's next. Daenerys is Aerys's daughter (and third child), so she's last.
> 
> If she were male, it wouldn't change anything.


I understand that now but it is still eff'd up that a second son is not next and his nephew is.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Prince Harry really got screwed...LOL!


Yeah, so it basically works just like that, the eldest is what is most important, and the primary order follows them.

So Jon, even if he didn't have a penis, is the rightful heir, at least by these rules.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> So you're saying the line of succession would be...
> Rhaegar
> Jon
> Viserys
> ...


Why is that messed up? In this case, the line doesn't have to do with sex, just birth order (and their dependents) That is a very common line of succession path. The path follow the branches of the children (until the end) before moving to the next eldest child. If we exclude their sexes, Jon would still have the right the throne over Dany. However, if the situations were reversed (Jon was the daughter of Rheagar and Dany the son of Areys), then yes sexism would coming's in to play as (male) Dany would have the claim over (female) Jon. (I think)

Look at the British Monarchy. A few years ago, Queen Elizabeth changed the line of succession to be gender independent. But, the line still follows the birth order. After Prince Charles (the Queen's eldest son), Prince William is next. After him are his three children (George, Charolette, and Louis). Only then does it move to William's brother, Harry (and now his new son right afterwards.) Poor Andrew (Charles' brother) keeps getting knocked down the line.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

SullyND said:


> I didn't understand the point of the whole dragon dive-bomb... I figured she caused them to use all their arrows, and the reload time would give her a chance to torch some ships, but it seemed all for nothing.


Apparently it was to show how STUPID she is, not only flying directly into anti-aircraft fire, but failing to torch the ships from behind when they had only bow-mounted AA.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That was several months...


What was? Highgarden?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I can sorta see Dani being bent out of shape. She's thought she was the rightful heir for years, and now suddenly she isn't. The problem is, not only is she no longer next in line, but she's showing serious flaws as a leader.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

TriBruin said:


> Why is that messed up?


Geez, what are you people not gettin'? It sucks that birth order rules over age is all I'm sayin'...sheeesh...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I understand that now but it is still eff'd up that a second son is not next and his nephew is.


So you think when you die your children shouldn't inherit from you, but rather your siblings?


TAsunder said:


> What was? Highgarden?


King Robert's caravan from King's Landing to Winterfell.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dawghows said:


> My wife and I were saying after this episode that we've spent the whole series learning that Jaime is not so bad as he originally seemed, and now we're spending the last few episodes (and some of last season) learning that Dany is not a good as she originally seemed. It was fine for her to be so single-minded when she believed she was the rightful heir to the throne. Now that she knows the truth, she's just jealous, power-hungry and selfish.


Just as Sam asked: "would she do the same for you?". I think Sam got his answer and Jon is too stupid to think about it for one second.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> King Robert's caravan from King's Landing to Winterfell.


Cersei explicitly says they've been riding for a month in episode 1.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125450083107872772


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you think when you die your children shouldn't inherit from you, but rather your siblings?


Yes. My younger sibling(s) should be next as I'm sure my children will still be taken care of. And who's to say they would not inherit anything?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Here's a problem I have with birth order. What if the #1 son is a terrible ruler? Maybe not Joffrey level, but bad enough that everyone agrees. And maybe the #3 (either gender) would make a great ruler. Is the kingdom screwed?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

On the order of succession. If it goes down the line of children before siblings then wouldn't it by right go to Dany before Jon? His father was never king, was he? So it would have gone from the mad king to Viserys then to Dany, no? I'm confused!


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

nirisahn said:


> I really think the writers dropped the ball on this episode. Could they have made Dany and everyone with her look any dumber? Heading south with no plan, not frying the Iron Fleet when she had the chance, confronting Cersie with most of her top people with her? (still don't get why Cersie didn't kill them all there and then) Just dumb on all sides.


I see this kind of behavior often at the poker table. Super tight, patient players who wait and wait and wait for good hands, hardly playing any hands at all. Then, all of a sudden, their patience runs out, or they have to leave to meet friends, and they go all in on a very sub-par hand.

Dany has been trying sooooo hard for YEARS, with mixed results. Against her better judgement she delayed attacking Cersei's forces to fight alongside the North. The North doesn't seem to appreciate her sacrifices very much, her resources are rapidly dwindling, her children are dying and she feels it all slipping away from her grasp. Of course she's going to push the edge more and more.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> On the order of succession. If it goes down the line of children before siblings then wouldn't it by right go to Dany before Jon? His father was never king, was he? So it would have gone from the mad king to Viserys then to Dany, no? I'm confused!


Dany is too! LOL

But yeah, she has every right to be pissed that her nephew is next in line.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> On the order of succession. If it goes down the line of children before siblings then wouldn't it by right go to Dany before Jon? His father was never king, was he? So it would have gone from the mad king to Viserys then to Dany, no? I'm confused!


Nope that's not how it works, at least not in a traditional sense. I don't recall if westeros rules have ever been explicitly outlined.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Nope that's not how it works, at least not in a traditional sense. I don't recall if westeros rules have ever been explicitly outlined.


I am fairly certain that it has been established that the lines of succession are the same as England prior to the 2013 change to disregard gender.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> I am fairly certain that it has been established that the lines of succession are the same as England prior to the 2013 change to disregard gender.


So sex does matter, but in this case it's irrelevant.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

2013??!! Took'em long enough!


----------



## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I think the compressed/rushed final season is compounding the stupid we are seeing. It's hard to get a timeline on things. The finish line is in sight and they are rushing to get there. Kinda like they want it to be over so their writing is getting sloppy.

Things I hated about this episode...

I'm guessing Qyburn still has little birds out there which allowed them to know Dany and the Dragons were on their way back to Dragonstone. Once Rhaegal was taken down I'm baffled why Dany just didn't swing around to the rear and take Euron out from behind.

They did a bad job showing how far away Dany's infantry and Drogon were from the wall. Drogon seemed to be well within range of the scorpions. I was surprised that they weren't all aimed at the Drogon.

Cersei put her hands on Missandei's arm when she told her if she had any final words, now was the time to say them. I was yelling at the screen for Missandei to put her arms up and around Cersei's head and pull them both off the platform to fall to their death.

Of course they don't want to kill Cersei or Euron just yet so none of that happened.

I'm thinking Arya fails to kill Cersei and gets killed by the Mountain or Euron in the process. The Hound avenges Arya and finally kills his brother, getting mortally wounded himself.

Dany kills Varys and torches Kings Landing, dying along with Drogon in the process. Possibly being killed by Jon.

Jaime tracks down Cersei and kills her, dieing in the process.

Tyrion/Grey Worm, both die during the battle.

Jon returns to Winterfell as warden of the North.

Sansa marries Gendry Baratheon and they become the new King and Queen.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

The main problem I had with this episode was the stupidity of the military "tactics". You've got a perfect reconnaissance instrument with 2 dragons, so you fly them _with_ the fleet? Oh, let's peek around this bunch of rocks. And the one dragon being shot before they take aim at dragon 2?

Plus Sansa of all people was right. What's the rush? An army marches on their stomach, blah blah.

And if real military history is any guide, the scorpions (if that's what the giant crossbows are called) are the Fat Man and Little Boy of Westeros. It really should be game over.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

allan said:


> I can sorta see Dani being bent out of shape. She's thought she was the rightful heir for years, and now suddenly she isn't. The problem is, not only is she no longer next in line, but she's showing serious flaws as a leader.


So she'll have to kill Jon?

Jon have any kids roaming around Westeros? He seemed to keep it in his pants better than most, but you never know...


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

allan said:


> Here's a problem I have with birth order. What if the #1 son is a terrible ruler? Maybe not Joffrey level, but bad enough that everyone agrees. And maybe the #3 (either gender) would make a great ruler. Is the kingdom screwed?


Medieval Guy to the white courtesy phone.

Short answer: yes.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> So she'll have to kill Jon?
> 
> Jon have any kids roaming around Westeros? He seemed to keep it in his pants better than most, but you never know...


The only women he's been with have been Ygritte the Wildling and Dany, so no, not much chance of that!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> So she'll have to kill Jon?
> 
> Jon have any kids roaming around Westeros? He seemed to keep it in his pants better than most, but you never know...


I don't think she kills Jon. Maybe everyone else starting with Tyrion and Varys the minute she realizes they were conspiring. What a stupid conversation to have when Varys should know better than anyone that the walls always have ears!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't think she kills Jon. Maybe everyone else starting with Tyrion and Varys the minute she realizes they were conspiring. What a stupid conversation to have when Varys should know better than anyone that the walls always have ears!


If she's truly a mad queen and her only goal is being queen and he's in the way...

Is Jon fireproof? Asking for a queen.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> If she's truly a mad queen and her only goal is being queen and he's in the way...
> 
> Is Jon fireproof? Asking for a queen.




Well he burned his hand a few seasons back so no, unless that changed when he died? But I still think she won't, at least not on purpose. That's not to say he won't be somewhere when she reigns fire down on it. Wouldn't that be the final straw for her. She'd truly just burn everyone and everything and peace out.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Well he burned his hand a few seasons back so no, unless that changed when he died? But I still think she won't, at least not on purpose. That's not to say he won't be somewhere when she reigns fire down on it. Wouldn't that be the final straw for her. She'd truly just burn everyone and everything and peace out.


This might prove to be a more satisfying ending than the one we're given. I love this show but the plot this season isn't quite what I was hoping for.


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Yeah, that was the one thing that bothered me about last week's ending --they've already used up the Arya assassination shtick on the NK, so how will she kill Cersei without it seeming like a rehash of the same thing?





uncdrew said:


> With a face


I think maybe she will kill Cersie with Jamie or Euron's face.



Jstkiddn said:


> Who says it's Cersei she's headed to kill? I think she's going after the Mountain.


I think the Mountain will be killed by the Hound.



smak said:


> Did Cersei just tell Euron she was pregnant with his child? I wonder if Euron wonders how Tyrion knows this.


I thought the same thing!



Anubys said:


> Which one of you cowards S*It my pants?
> 
> Best. Line. Ever.


YES!!!! Reminds me of a joke that ends with a similar punchline but it came out of nowhere and was timed perfectly! He's had some great lines!


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> On the order of succession. If it goes down the line of children before siblings then wouldn't it by right go to Dany before Jon? His father was never king, was he? So it would have gone from the mad king to Viserys then to Dany, no? I'm confused!


It's not about being the better King or not (and that's why we see Kings get assassinated if they are bad). Go back to the early seasons. We see after Robert was killed, that Joffrey was the new King, not Stannis. Obviously we know that it should have been Stannis because Joffrey was NOT Robert's son, but because it was assumed that Joffrey was Robert's son, it was Joffrey and not Stannis. The whole STORY is based on the line of succession. And we know that Joffrey was a bad king. That didn't matter.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Jstkiddn said:


> Is that a Starbucks cup?





vertigo235 said:


> I don't think that is from the episode.





vertigo235 said:


> Yeah I went back and looked, someone is being clever, photo shopped or whatever.


I just went back and looked and it most definitely is part of the episode I recorded last night. Too funny!


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

tivotvaddict said:


> I just went back and looked and it most definitely is part of the episode I recorded last night. Too funny!


Really? What timestamp was it? Clearly they forgot to clear the set then because all the scenes I saw she had one of those metal goblets.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The main problem I had with this episode was the stupidity of the military "tactics". You've got a perfect reconnaissance instrument with 2 dragons, so you fly them _with_ the fleet? Oh, let's peek around this bunch of rocks. And the one dragon being shot before they take aim at dragon 2?


I also think this is the first time Dany has traveled with the fleet on dragonback. She's always been on the ship with the dragons overhead. She rode horseback to Winterfell with her army, too.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Really? What timestamp was it? Clearly they forgot to clear the set then because all the scenes I saw she had one of those metal goblets.


It's 19 minutes into my recording. Tormund is saying to Jon "Most people get bloody murdered they stay that way" and spills wine from his horn onto Jon.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Really? What timestamp was it? Clearly they forgot to clear the set then because all the scenes I saw she had one of those metal goblets.


They were just talking about this on the radio. It's at around 17:30.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mitkraft said:


> I think maybe she will kill Cersie with Jamie or Euron's face.


But she'd have to kill them to do that.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

HAH! yes indeed


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

allan said:


> I can sorta see Dani being bent out of shape. She's thought she was the rightful heir for years, and now suddenly she isn't. The problem is, not only is she no longer next in line, but she's showing serious flaws as a leader.


What I'm saying is, all along she wanted the throne because she is the "rightful heir." That's totally understandable, of course. But now that she knows she's not the rightful heir, we now see that _truthfully_ she wants the throne because ... well, because she wants it. Turns out now that rightful-ness really has nothing to do with it. I still like her, and I'd be fine with it if she wound up as Queen (although I don't think she will). But we can no longer pretend --as Tyrion seems to want to-- that she has any claim to it.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

smak said:


> Also. I know it was just for show really, but how could anybody, let alone Tyrion, think Cersei would make a deal with one less dragon, and way fewer troops than the last time she turned him down.
> 
> I want to see team dragon do something clever for once.
> 
> -smak-


one fewer dragon

/stannis


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

I can sorta see why Dany would think she still has the prior claim - she's full Targaryen (sp?), not half; she's the one that's walked through fire multiple times; and she's the mother of dragons. Maybe in her mind this all adds up to having the better claim.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> one fewer dragon
> 
> /stannis


The Joke that keeps on giving.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

nirisahn said:


> I can sorta see why Dany would think she still has the prior claim - she's full Targaryen (sp?), not half; she's the one that's walked through fire multiple times; and she's the mother of dragons. Maybe in her mind this all adds up to having the better claim.


And with some reason; her older brother had the stronger claim as well, and look what happened to him! Not all Targaryens are created equal, it seems.

There's also the argument that she's _worked_ for it, raising the armies and undergoing severe trials to get to where she is. Whereas Jon has just sort of fallen into leadership of the North, largely by default after the deaths of Edd, Robb, etc., and Bran's transformation.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It didn't occur to me until Rhaegal died that Jon had been riding the dragon named after his father.

Now both of the dragons named after Dany's brothers are gone.

Then again, Drogon has always been her clear favorite, so I guess it's no surprise that Rhaegal and Viserion wer redshirts.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> We'll know for sure at 9:03pm EST next Sunday.


So 10:03pm EDT?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> And with some reason; her older brother had the stronger claim as well, and look what happened to him! Not all Targaryens are created equal, it seems.
> 
> There's also the argument that she's _worked_ for it, raising the armies and undergoing severe trials to get to where she is. Whereas Jon has just sort of fallen into leadership of the North, largely by default after the deaths of Edd, Robb, etc., and Bran's transformation.


And if she lived in a world where royal succession was based on hard work and competence, then she'd be right.

But she lives in Westeros, so she's not.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Being nitpicky...thread title should be *8*x04.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> So you're saying the line of succession would be...
> Rhaegar
> Jon
> Viserys
> ...


Exactly as one would expect. Jon was alive when his father, the rightful heir at the time was killed.

But.....did Dany become the rightful heir when Jon died? Does he get his rights back because he came back to life?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Dany is too! LOL
> 
> But yeah, she has every right to be pissed that her nephew is next in line.


Dany is not confused. Pissed but not confused.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And if she lived in a world where royal succession was based on hard work and competence, then she'd be right.
> 
> But she lives in Westeros, so she's not.


What world has royal succession based on hard work and competence? Naboo?


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> But.....did Dany become the rightful heir when Jon died? Does he get his rights back because he came back to life?


Clearly he must have been only _mostly dead_!


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

smbaker said:


> Clearly he must have been only _mostly dead_!


"Not dead yet"


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Being nitpicky...thread title should be *8*x04.


I prefer S08E04


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Alan Sepinwall (in his Rolling Stone article) talks about the discussion between Tyrion and Varys debating the merits of Dany and Jon as rulers:

_More importantly, though, you have two of the show's most vividly-etched figures (played by two of the best actors in the whole ensemble) arguing over which flavor of vanilla would be the most exciting to serve at the end of this 73-episode meal. _


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> Being nitpicky...thread title should be *8*x04.


I'm sure I don't know what you mean...




MikeekiM said:


> I prefer S08E04


PIRATE!


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

astrohip said:


> RIP Rhaegal


And I really thought for a moment that Drogon at least was going to follow when Danny did her, straight into the teeth of the scorpions dive.

They haven't played with using the dragons (or, now, dragon) as a bomber. For the battle of Winterfell last episode I was wondering what would have happened if they'd dropped dragon glass darts onto the dead. Now I'm wondering about raining down wildfire filled crockery.

It'd be a way to burn out Euron's fleet without getting low enough to be an easy target for its artillery. Or, at the likelihood of a lot of civilian deaths, clearing the wall of King's Landing of all its new artillery.

(Speaking of the artillery, didn't Drogon - back behind that tiny force of Unsullied - look like he was landed way too close to the walls; given how far Euron was able to shoot Rhaegal from? I was worried we were going to loose the final dragon from another ill-conceived landing. Also speaking of artillery it was "amazing" that those bolt throwers did more damage to ships than a 32 pound Napoleonic warship's cannon would have. The plot magic runs strong in those.)


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> (Speaking of the artillery, didn't Drogon look like he was landed way too close to the walls; given how far Euron was able to shoot Rhaegal from? I was worried we were going to loose the final dragon from another ill-conceived landing)


Absolutely. And he was kinda just sitting there.

If Cersi had been smart (and since we know she cares not at all about playing by any rules), she would have taken out the dragon, and the entire negotiating party right then and there. Take out the Mother of Dragons, take out the dragon, and you've kinda won. Sure, you'll have rogue Starks coming after you for a while, but that's business as usual for Westeros.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So if something were to happen to Drogon, is there any way to get more dragons? Has anybody laid any eggs? I don't even know if they're male or female.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> I think maybe she will kill Cersie with Jamie or Euron's face.
> 
> I think the Mountain will be killed by the Hound.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking a Star Wars homage. When Luke & Han are stormtroopoers and pretend to capture Chewbacca.

Arya pretending to be somebody (Qyburn?) has "captured" somebody important (Jon? Jamie?), who's not really captured, and they kill Cersie.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think team Dragon was actually quite smart to make the meeting with Cersei, much smarter than they were flying 2 dragons into an ambush.

Now they know about all of those scorpions aligned on top of King's landing, and hopefully this will mean that instead of a full on assault, they will do things a bit more cleverly.

That probably should be the first thing they talk about next week.

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> And I really thought for a moment that Drogon at least was going to follow when Danny did her, straight into the teeth of the scorpions dive.
> 
> They haven't played with using the dragons (or, now, dragon) as a bomber. For the battle of Winterfell last episode I was wondering what would have happened if they'd dropped dragon glass darts onto the dead. Now I'm wondering about raining down wildfire filled crockery.
> 
> ...


This is what I was wondering about. Why not fly too high for the scorpions to reach you and just drop big rocks down on the enemy? it's a sitting and unmoving target. Heck, even the ships could do nothing to stop them.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Anubys said:


> This is what I was wondering about. Why not fly too high for the scorpions to reach you and just drop big rocks down on the enemy? it's a sitting and unmoving target. Heck, even the ships could do nothing to stop them.


How much can a dragon carry and how high? How is the "bomb" stored on the aircraft? How does one get the bomb sighting correct?

My question is what's the maximum angle upward for Scorpion targeting?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I was thinking (hoping) he'd just melt the incoming spears. 

-smak-


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

ct1 said:


> Jon is standing with a huge crowd getting to ready to burn bodies, steps forward and gives his speech to the crowd... while facing away from them?
> 
> Was he just speaking to the dead bodies?


Showing Lyanna Mormont on the pyre confused me for a moment. She was resurrected as a blue-eyed zombie by the Night King and should have crumbled to ice cubes like the rest of his horde after his death.

The scenes with Ghost were all "off" to me. He was just added by the CGI artists to say that he is still not dead. But he didn't move or act like a wolf IMHO. I can't believe I'm being that nit-picky as the SFX in this series has consistently been outstanding.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

They mentioned the Starbucks cup on NBC Nightly news tonight. I totally missed it when it aired. I guess I blinked.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

getreal said:


> Showing Lyanna Mormont on the pyre confused me for a moment. She was resurrected as a blue-eyed zombie by the Night King and should have crumbled to ice cubes like the rest of his horde after his death.
> 
> The scenes with Ghost were all "off" to me. He was just added by the CGI artists to say that he is still not dead. But he didn't move or act like a wolf IMHO. I can't believe I'm being that nit-picky as the SFX in this series has consistently been outstanding.


I thought they only crumbled when struck with Dragon glass or Valyrian steel.

ANyone else notice Ghost was missing an ear?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> Showing Lyanna Mormont on the pyre confused me for a moment. She was resurrected as a blue-eyed zombie by the Night King and should have crumbled to ice cubes like the rest of his horde after his death.


No, she was a wight, so she would just drop dead again.

It's the White Walkers that crumble into ice-ashes.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The White Walkers seemed to crumble into ice, but the rest of them seemed to just fall down.

-smak-


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

gossamer88 said:


> They mentioned the Starbucks cup on NBC Nightly news tonight. I totally missed it when it aired. I guess I blinked.


Yes, before they all go around and kill each other, maybe they all should just sit down with latte's.....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mm2margaret said:


> Yes, before they all go around and kill each other, maybe they all should just sit down with latte's.....


Is the world ready for a caffeinated Dany?


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Hmmm........maybe not.....


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

smak said:


> I think team Dragon was actually quite smart to make the meeting with Cersei
> -smak-


I agree it was smart to make some loud public call for Cersei to surrender, then she and her entourage would be shown leniency plus and more importantly the people inside Kings Landing would be spared from the harm, however the way that was presented to us viewers was a sad joke.


robojerk said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bla57y


Cersei HATES Tyrion, she would've had the archers shoot him for sure. Cersei was goating Dany into a fight by killing Missandei so how Tyrion had some strong plot armor there because there should've been no reason for her to also kill him as well.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

smak said:


> Now they know about all of those scorpions aligned on top of King's landing


How fortunate that the carpenters who built the platforms for the scorpions built an empty platform over th gate to throw someone from...


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

The official GoT Twitter account has verified that the Starbucks cup was a mistake. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125502368056053762


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I'm not sure why everyone is saying Dany is dumb for not flying the dragons around behind the ships etc... it sure looked to me like the scorpions on the castle ramparts were on some kind of swivel platform and I assume the ones on the ships were as well (although I don't think we got as good a look at them). It would have to be the case, because the obvious downside to a huge ballista like that is that you have to wait for your target to move in front of it. For emplacements against armies or especially ships that's probably still worthwhile but against dragons you HAVE to be able to rotate them both horizontally and vertically or they're essentially useless unless you get very lucky.

Sure, the masts get in the way, but maybe the ships had rear-mounted scorpions as well. She's down to her last dragon and I don't think she's stupid at all for getting the hell out of Dodge when she doesn't know the situation. Even with the scorpions a dragon is still a potent force, if you can find a way to use it properly.

It seemed clear to me that her initial reaction was to directly dive the ships after Rheagar was killed but she eventually decided against it and pulled away.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

They do have an elevation problem. From the looks of it, about 30-40 degrees up. So unless the ballista field is big enough to cover each other, they have a weakness from directly overhead.

--Carlos V.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

SoBelle0 said:


> All of this!!
> 
> Jon was a real stinker to Ghost. No pets. Nothing.
> I am hopeful that Tormund will treat him better.
> ...


I never got the impression that Drogon was anywhere near by in the meeting at the end. I don't believe he was seen.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Drogon was waaaay in the back. 


-smak-


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

smak said:


> Drogon was waaaay in the back.
> 
> -smak-


But still waaaay closer than the ships were that killed his brother.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

While I enjoyed this episode (back to the "Game"), things are getting really sloppy for a show that usually isn't.

In the "Inside the Episode" that followed (I don't think it's a spoiler to post) one of the D's actually said "Dany had *forgotten* about Euron's fleet." HTF do you forget about Euron's fleet? Varys had_ just_ brought them up in the War Council meeting. This was the third time Euron's taken her by surprise!

Tyrion looked ridiculous saying "Your reign is over. Surrender" with 72 soldiers at his back.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Theory:

Arya steals the face of one of Cercei's kids and kills her. My vote is for Joffrey. "why did you let them kill me, Mother?"


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

teknikel said:


> How much can a dragon carry and how high?


African or European dragon?


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

smak said:


> Drogon was waaaay in the back.
> 
> -smak-


I must have missed that


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> But she'd have to kill them to do that.


Well, SHE doesn't actually have to kill them but they would indeed have to be dead and I'm betting one or both of them will be by the end of this all.



nirisahn said:


> I can sorta see why Dany would think she still has the prior claim - she's full Targaryen (sp?), not half; she's the one that's walked through fire multiple times; and she's the mother of dragons. Maybe in her mind this all adds up to having the better claim.


How is she "Full" Targaryen? Are both her parents Targaryen? If not then he's just as much one as she is.



teknikel said:


> How much can a dragon carry and how high?


That depends, are they African or European dragons?



gossamer88 said:


> ANyone else notice Ghost was missing an ear?


I noticed and was sad for him. I also think Jon is a terrible pet owner but he's really that detached from just about everything. He's kinda flighty.



PJO1966 said:


> Theory:
> 
> Arya steals the face of one of Cercei's kids and kills her. My vote is for Joffrey. "why did you let them kill me, Mother?"


Oooh, I like that idea even better than mine! Problem is the kids faces would be in no condition to make anything but zombie masks at this point....Uh oh, do I see a crossover opportunity?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> HAH! yes indeed
> 
> View attachment 40842


You saw the meme about how Starbucks wanted product placement but were told that it would be hard to place Starbucks into this world as there aren't really any Starbucks stores in Westeros.

Well, money talks. Starbucks got their product placement.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I really think Dany goes full Targaryan, and somebody (Jon would be the most tragic candidate) has to kill her to save everybody else.


Though there'd be some interesting symmetry (assuming he can get down there in time) if Jamie killed her to protect the people of King's Landing (and his sister) from being incinerated...

But it might be a little too on the nose to have the Kingslayer kill yet another Targaryen insistent on mass incineration of the capital.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> I can sorta see why Dany would think she still has the prior claim - she's full Targaryen (sp?), not half; she's the one that's walked through fire multiple times; and she's the mother of dragons. Maybe in her mind this all adds up to having the better claim.


I 100% agree.

I mean this woman rides dragons and walks through fire. She's just supposed to be a housewife somewhere? She's a freakin' queen!!!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

kdmorse said:


> Absolutely. And he was kinda just sitting there.
> 
> If Cersi had been smart (and since we know she cares not at all about playing by any rules), she would have taken out the dragon, and the entire negotiating party right then and there. Take out the Mother of Dragons, take out the dragon, and you've kinda won. Sure, you'll have rogue Starks coming after you for a while, but that's business as usual for Westeros.


So I think it's safe to assume that Drogon and Dany/Greyworm/etc. were safely out of range. Regardless of our own opinions of ancient artillery performance specs.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smak said:


> I'm thinking a Star Wars homage. When Luke & Han are stormtroopoers and pretend to capture Chewbacca.
> 
> Arya pretending to be somebody (Qyburn?) has "captured" somebody important (Jon? Jamie?), who's not really captured, and they kill Cersie.
> 
> -smak-


I do think Arya's best plan is to kill Qyburn and approach Cersei as him. Qyburn is alone often, seems to be unguarded, and of course would be an easy kill.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> This is what I was wondering about. Why not fly too high for the scorpions to reach you and just drop big rocks down on the enemy? it's a sitting and unmoving target. Heck, even the ships could do nothing to stop them.


The way those scorpions were mounted I don't think they can point straight up.

And like others have said, I hope this meeting results in some strategic planning before battle. I know Dany just lost her marbles and is set to go full DRACARUS! but I hope we see her show some smarts and slow down a tad before attacking.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> How is she "Full" Targaryen? Are both her parents Targaryen? If not then he's just as much one as she is.


I'm not certain, but probably, the Targaryens liked to keep their bloodlines pure, they married within.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> How is she "Full" Targaryen? Are both her parents Targaryen? If not then he's just as much one as she is.


Yes, both her parents were Targaryans (brother and sister).


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I do think Arya's best plan is to kill Qyburn and approach Cersei as him. Qyburn is alone often, seems to be unguarded, and of course would be an easy kill.


Or she could become "The Mountain". She helps The Hound kill his brother, takes his "face" and kills Cersei. That would fit in with where we are now with her riding off with The Hound and his thirst to kill his brother.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> I'm not certain, but probably, the Targaryens liked to keep their bloodlines pure, they married within.


The Targaryen family always married within itself. Brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles. Dany grew up thinking she'd marry her brother Viserys but then was sold off to marry Drogo for his calvery.
More info, not spoiler but off topic


Spoiler



Rhaegar, the son and heir of Aerys the Mad King, was an only child for most of his life and his sister Dany, the only daughter of Aerys II and Rhaella was born after his death (I believe). He was unable to produce a pure blood Targaryen heir, because he had no sister at the time so for the first time a Targeryen would marry an outsider, a woman from Dorn. They had a child but during "Robert's Rebellion" The Mountain killed the baby by smashing it into a castle wall and killed the mother, that was the reason behind "The Mountain and the Viper" trial by combat, the Dornish people wanted vengance. However Rhaegar renounced his marriage at some point and married Lyana Stark and had a baby with her whome we all know as Jon Snow.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Or she could become "The Mountain". She helps The Hound kill his brother, takes his "face" and kills Cersei. That would fit in with where we are now with her riding off with The Hound and his thirst to kill his brother.


Yeah, and I want to see this because I'd love to see a 4 foot tall Mountain.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones

Our history is being rewritten!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, and I want to see this because I'd love to see a 4 foot tall Mountain.


But we saw when she killed Walder Frey that she takes on the physical characteristics of the people she impersonates (her "face" was much taller than she is).


robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


Ooh, I'm keeping my recording! It'll probably be worth a fortune some day! The rare Starbucks Error version!


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


What will Bran see if he goes back in time?


----------



## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

can't wait to see Cersai die a painful death


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I don’t mind Brienne and Jaime. What I hate is that they pointed out her virginity and that she begged him to stay. If they had come together mutually without him rescuing her from her embarrassment, as equals (since she’s now a knight!), and not put him in a position of power over her it would have been so much better. His leaving is in character, but I did not think her response was in character. If she had borne it and then maybe shed a tear when he was gone it would have been better. 

Hate it.


----------



## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


They did it really quickly too. For my PDT recording 3 hours later, they zoomed in on Dany cropping out the cup. I'll have to check HBO Go to see if it was edited more elegantly later on.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I saw this on twitter and it rang true for me.

"Dan & David would win Best Adapted Screenplay nearly every year. Best Original Screenplay, they wouldn't even get nominated."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The 12 things that are really bothering us on 'Game of Thrones' right now

I agree with some of these...


----------



## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


Han shot fir.... I mean "Dany drinks lattes!"


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The 12 things that are really bothering us on 'Game of Thrones' right now
> 
> I agree with some of these...


Pretty much all have been discussed here. Some ad nauseum


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But we saw when she killed Walder Frey that she takes on the physical characteristics of the people she impersonates (her "face" was much taller than she is).


Hmm...

Ok, so let's say she gets The Mountain's face and puts it on and grows 3 feet.

If someone swings a sword at 6 feet high, does it decapitate her or swish through the air?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Hmm...
> 
> Ok, so let's say she gets The Mountain's face and puts it on and grows 3 feet.
> 
> If someone swings a sword at 6 feet high, does it decapitate her or swish through the air?


It has appeared that when they put on faces, they literally take on the physical characteristics of the "face," not just the appearance. But I don't think it's been firmly established one way or the other.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

MacThor said:


> I saw this on twitter and it rang true for me.
> 
> "D&D would win Best Adapted Screenplay nearly every year. Best Original Screenplay, they wouldn't even get nominated."


What's "D&D"?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

heySkippy said:


> What's "D&D"?


Sorry, Dan Weiss & David Benioff. I'll edit for clarity.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The 12 things that are really bothering us on 'Game of Thrones' right now
> 
> I agree with some of these...


I told myself I wouldn't question how Cersei's crew captured Greyworm's gal, though it seemed odd to me.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


Another great house removed from the face of Westeros. We will miss you House of Starkbuck. What a great sigil they had.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Another great house removed from the face of Westeros. We will miss you House of Starkbuck. What a great sigil they had.


This may have been the best post of the whole series


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

jehma said:


> I don't mind Brienne and Jaime. What I hate is that they pointed out her virginity and that she begged him to stay. If they had come together mutually without him rescuing her from her embarrassment, as equals (since she's now a knight!), and not put him in a position of power over her it would have been so much better. His leaving is in character, but I did not think her response was in character. If she had borne it and then maybe shed a tear when he was gone it would have been better.
> 
> Hate it.


I did not see it this way at all. I don't think he rescued her from embarrassment, she got up to pretend to pee clearly not planning to return. He knew that and instead of allow Tormund a chance to follow her, he did. I felt like they were total equals in the intimacy. I'm quite certain she wanted that as much, if not more than he did. My only problem was his reasoning for leaving.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> The 12 things that are really bothering us on 'Game of Thrones' right now
> 
> I agree with some of these...


Honestly I agree with most of it but most of all the Bran thing. Why are they not asking him to at minimum warg into some birds and do some scouting for them?????


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Also why is Dany not just taking Drogon at night when nobody can see her coming and torching every last scorpion on the ships and walls of KL??? Why do they keep doing it during the day?? UGH


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also why is Dany not just taking Drogon at night when nobody can see her coming and torching every last scorpion on the ships and walls of KL??? Why do they keep doing it during the day?? UGH


Maybe dragons have poor night vision? I have nothin'!


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Also why is Dany not just taking Drogon at night when nobody can see her coming and torching every last scorpion on the ships and walls of KL??? Why do they keep doing it during the day?? UGH


I'm pretty sure there's a cinematographer who would love to film an episode like that.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I did not see it this way at all. I don't think he rescued her from embarrassment, she got up to pretend to pee clearly not planning to return. He knew that and instead of allow Tormund a chance to follow her, he did. I felt like they were total equals in the intimacy. I'm quite certain she wanted that as much, if not more than he did. My only problem was his reasoning for leaving.


I think that by pointing out her virginity, they're putting her in a more vulnerable position and giving power to Jaime. I don't see any reason for this at all, and I wonder if female writers would have written it that way. I do agree that she wanted the sexual relationship as much as he did.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The 12 things that are really bothering us on 'Game of Thrones' right now


The same writer made an argument that Sansa should win the throne a week ago.

The armchair-quarterbacking masking as commentary/crticism is starting to dance on my last nerves. It's almost anhedonic.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Even though she was staying for duty not safety, I did get the vibe of "Please don't go off to war and leave me here all alone and break my heart" trope. On one hand it has been nice to see the lighter/softer side of Brienne, on the other, I'm not sure that's her character.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TAsunder said:


> I'm pretty sure there's a cinematographer who would love to film an episode like that.


I mean they do everything else in the dark why not that? It's the only tactical strategy that makes sense having lost _another _dragon! Why aren't the characters at all smart lately?

Also can she command Drogon without being with him to give a verbal command? I mean would it be possible for them to distract while Drogon flew around and burned things from the other direction? The entirety of KL cannot possibly have scorpions along the wall so why are they not just flying around and over KL and blasting them? I'm growing so frustrated the more I think about all this.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> The same writer made an argument that Sansa should win the throne a week ago.
> 
> The armchair-quarterbacking masking as commentary/crticism is starting to dance on my last nerves. It's almost anhedonic.


Was just saying the same thing to my son whose a big GoT fan. Between the criticism and the theories, I'm just getting bored with it all. It reminds me of Lost. After awhile some of the theories just make no sense or I just don't care because they mean little. Including mine 

Maybe that's why it's better to binge these things? I don't know.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Was just saying the same thing to my son whose a big GoT fan. Between the criticism and the theories, I'm just getting bored with it all. It reminds me of Lost. After awhile some of the theories just make no sense or I just don't care because they mean little. Including mine
> 
> Maybe that's why it's better to binge these things? I don't know.


Any show with significant swings in quality is probably more enjoyable to watch in a binge. That certainly has been my experience.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I saw this on twitter and it rang true for me.
> 
> "Dan & David would win Best Adapted Screenplay nearly every year. Best Original Screenplay, they wouldn't even get nominated."


Speaking of which, since the show is beyond the books, is it known to what extent the major plot points follow what GRRM is writing?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Any show with significant swings in quality is probably more enjoyable to watch in a binge. That certainly has been my experience.


I don't even think it's that for me. I just think the more pop-culture a series is, the better it is to binge. Everyone has an opinion, including me, and it's just overwhelming after awhile. It used to be more fun in the Lost days, where, this type of stuff wasn't pushed to me (I guess I could turn it off if I really wanted to LOL). But, BECAUSE of all of this, it makes it MUCH harder to wait and binge because the information is everywhere and it's harder to avoid spoilers. I was just on vacation and it was very difficult to avoid finding out about things that happened during the Battle of Winterfell (I managed to do it, by staying really busy). So I feel compelled to watch it as close to real time as possible each week.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> The way those scorpions were mounted I don't think they can point straight up.
> 
> And like others have said, I hope this meeting results in some strategic planning before battle. I know Dany just lost her marbles and is set to go full DRACARUS! but I hope we see her show some smarts and slow down a tad before attacking.


While everybody is warning against her sacking the city, there's no such qualms on annihilating Euron's ships. I'm guessing that will happen quite soon.

-smak-


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


Next they'll be replacing all of the Dothraki arakhs with walkie-talkies.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Honestly I agree with most of it but most of all the Bran thing. Why are they not asking him to at minimum warg into some birds and do some scouting for them?????


You have a guy who knows past, present and future and can help sort out all kinds of thing and you ask him nothing.

Kind of like having a magical flying animal that you can ride and not using it to scout out every travel route and battlefield.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> The same writer made an argument that Sansa should win the throne a week ago.
> 
> The armchair-quarterbacking masking as commentary/crticism is starting to dance on my last nerves. It's almost anhedonic.


Thanks for the new vocabulary word. :up:


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I mean they do everything else in the dark why not that? It's the only tactical strategy that makes sense having lost _another _dragon! Why aren't the characters at all smart lately?
> 
> Also can she command Drogon without being with him to give a verbal command? I mean would it be possible for them to distract while Drogon flew around and burned things from the other direction? The entirety of KL cannot possibly have scorpions along the wall so why are they not just flying around and over KL and blasting them? I'm growing so frustrated the more I think about all this.


The whole of Kings Landing could have scorpions. Not sure why not. If it takes 2 years to gestate a human child, a scorpion can be built and mounted in 3.7 days. I think I have that math right.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Any show with significant swings in quality is probably more enjoyable to watch in a binge. That certainly has been my experience.


Obviously, I love the banter and and hair-brained conspiracy theories. I find shows much more enjoyable with the painful, week-long delays.

Lost was a fun one with y'all. What a goofy show that turned out to be.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smak said:


> While everybody is warning against her sacking the city, there's no such qualms on annihilating Euron's ships. I'm guessing that will happen quite soon.
> 
> -smak-


I'm wondering if the ships have any value left though. Killing the men would help for sure, but not sure the ships will/can be used in the battle any more. Then again, a bit of revenge and weakening of the enemy is good stuff for sure.

Of course I don't know the layout of Kings Landing very well. Perhaps they can fire on Dany & Jon from the harbor.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> You have a guy who knows past, present and future and can help sort out all kinds of thing and you ask him nothing.
> 
> Kind of like having a magical flying animal that you can ride and not using it to scout out every travel route and battlefield.


Do we know that Bran can see anything he wants or do his visions just come randomly. I mean, can you just ask Bran to tell you ANYTHING? I'm guessing no.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

humbb said:


> They did it really quickly too. For my PDT recording 3 hours later, they zoomed in on Dany cropping out the cup. I'll have to check HBO Go to see if it was edited more elegantly later on.


As of 11pm EDT last night, the HBO Go streaming version still had the cup in it.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Theory:
> 
> Arya steals the face of one of Cercei's kids and kills her. My vote is for Joffrey. "why did you let them kill me, Mother?"


I'm not sure that face is still in any condition to be used.



uncdrew said:


> I 100% agree.
> 
> I mean this woman rides dragons and walks through fire. She's just supposed to be a housewife somewhere? She's a freakin' queen!!!


Carnival act?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

tlc said:


> I'm not sure that face is still in any condition to be used.


We don't know anything about their embalming techniques.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Do we know that Bran can see anything he wants or do his visions just come randomly. I mean, can you just ask Bran to tell you ANYTHING? I'm guessing no.


Absolutely. Example: When Sam told him about the wedding that makes Jon a legit child and not a bastard, Bran simply went there and saw for himself.

He can also warg into ravens anywhere and send them flying where he wants them to go and see what they see. We have also seen him warg into a Direwolf and Hodor.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Although he's could possibly be a treasure trove of information, Bran is so boring that I'm glad they're not wasting screen time on him. Does Bras as the TER already know how all this is going to play out?

Personally, I like reading all of the fan theories. I think they're fun and interesting. What bugs me are all the literary geniuses who complain about the decline in quality once the tv show went past the books. I assume the show writers are working from an outline directly from GRRM. Frankly, he had one job to do - finish the books - and didn't do it. If he didn't give the tv show runners detailed notes on how things should work out, then that's on him too. I don't know who decided the show would end this truncated season. Whether it was HBO, the writers or the actors just plain got tired of it after ten years, the hard stop is the reason why events are suddenly careening sometimes illogically and characters are behaving out of character. If you're unhappy, it's Martin's fault.

I have a feeling I'm not going to be happy with the ending. Not because of the show quality but because I'm probably not going to get the fairy tale ending I want - Dany on the iron throne having inbred ********* children with Jon.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Of course I don't know the layout of Kings Landing very well. Perhaps they can fire on Dany & Jon from the harbor.


Apparently neither do the show runners!

Game of Thrones fans are puzzled by the show's messed up King's Landing geography | JOE.co.uk


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Do we know that Bran can see anything he wants or do his visions just come randomly. I mean, can you just ask Bran to tell you ANYTHING? I'm guessing no.


He seems to know a lot that no one else knows. He visited a lot of events from the past that we saw. I assume there are more.

He is supposed to be the History of the World, right? NK wanted him gone -- I assume because he knows stuff. I could be wrong.

EDIT: And what Anubys said above.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LittleFinger seemed to know about Raegar and Lyanna. He hinted at it many times. So it surprises me that Varys had no clue.

I like the line "it's no longer a secret. It's information" once the count of who knows it became 8


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BTW, Daenerys also has green eyes.


My Guess: After defeating Cersei, Daenarys is having Jon executed Ned-style. This time, Arya can stop it.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Obviously, I love the banter and and hair-brained conspiracy theories. I find shows much more enjoyable with the painful, week-long delays.
> 
> Lost was a fun one with y'all. What a goofy show that turned out to be.


Sure, the overall experience of being a viewer is greatly enhanced for shows like this by water cooler talk and forums, etc. Actual enjoyment of the episode itself was more my point. Like, if I could skip to the next episode after last week I wouldn't have had time to digest and come to have a deep, burning hatred for aspects of the episode.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tlc said:


> BTW, Daenerys also has green eyes.


Nope they are super blue.

EDITED: ARE THEY NOT? I just looked it up and they look like a combination of blue with brown center but ever fact page says they are green. Wow.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Watching Jaime talk to Brienne again. He recounts evil things he did or would've done for Cersei. He ends it by saying Cersei is hateful and so is he.

That, to me, leaves no doubt that he has decided that Cersei is the source of evil and that he is now going to stop her. Not saying he will be the one to do it, only that he intends to try.

And let's not forget that Bronn already told he was sent there to kill both him and Tyrion.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

photoshopgrl said:


> Nope they are super blue.
> 
> EDITED: ARE THEY NOT? I just looked it up and they look like a combination of blue with brown center but ever fact page says they are green. Wow.


Replying to myself lol but I'm so confused. Everything online says Emilia has green eyes but is this not blue with brown centers?


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

Cersei is not pregnant. This is a hill I am willing to die on.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Watching Jaime talk to Brienne again. He recounts evil things he did or would've done for Cersei. He ends it by saying Cersei is hateful and so is he.
> 
> That, to me, leaves no doubt that he has decided that Cersei is the source of evil and that he is now going to stop her. Not saying he will be the one to do it, only that he intends to try.
> 
> And let's not forget that Bronn already told he was sent there to kill both him and Tyrion.


I honestly don't see it that way but I'm more than happy to be wrong. I like your version better than mine!


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently neither do the show runners!
> 
> Game of Thrones fans are puzzled by the show's messed up King's Landing geography | JOE.co.uk


From the article:



> It's very dry, there's some dry shrubbery, it looks pretty dank to be honest, and not in a good way.


What do they think "dank" means?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JoeyJoJo said:


> Cersei is not pregnant. This is a hill I am willing to die on.


Here's my hill to die on....

There are more dragons out there

-smak-


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Watching Jaime talk to Brienne again. He recounts evil things he did or would've done for Cersei. He ends it by saying Cersei is hateful and so is he.
> 
> That, to me, leaves no doubt that he has decided that Cersei is the source of evil and that he is now going to stop her. Not saying he will be the one to do it, only that he intends to try.
> 
> And let's not forget that Bronn already told he was sent there to kill both him and Tyrion.


That was my interpretation too.. I think he was fine to stay up in Winterfell thinking Dany and her dragons would make quick work of his sister, and he'd be far enough away to be removed from it.. However once news of how Dany lost another dragon came, it sunk in that his sister might win and had to stop her, good thing Kings Landing is only like 5 days walk away otherwise he'd be too far away to do a damn thing about it and news of it would be like a week old at least.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently neither do the show runners!
> 
> Game of Thrones fans are puzzled by the show's messed up King's Landing geography | JOE.co.uk


Heh. I thought of that while I was watching, and then...forgot about it.


smak said:


> Here's my hill to die on....
> 
> There are more dragons out there


Not a chance. They've done absolutely nothing to set that up. And adding a whole new complication when they're already rushing at a crazy pace to get through what they already have on the table...

Not a chance.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

robojerk said:


> That was my interpretation too.. I think he was fine to stay up in Winterfell thinking Dany and her dragons would make quick work or his sister, and he'd be far enough away to be removed from it.. However once news of how Dany lost another dragon came it sunk in that his sister might win and had to stop her, good thing Kings Landing is only like 5 days walk away.


Mine too. Last season he said they couldn't win against Dany's dragons and armies, and then he left. The old Jamie would have stayed, guarded Cersei, convinced her to hide, etc...

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It is stupid to have lush vegetation and trees around a castle. You might as well not have doors and walls. So it makes perfect sense for everything to be razed and the ground completely barren to expose the attacking forces and give them no cover.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Was just saying the same thing to my son whose a big GoT fan. Between the criticism and the theories, I'm just getting bored with it all. It reminds me of Lost


Still love the show. Still love this season. (but will reserve final opinion for ep 6) But I barely tolerate armchair-quarterbacking in actual sports. Seeing it in Movies and TV is the worst kind of fandom. Believing that you can do better than the showrunners and writers just because you watch the damn show.



uncdrew said:


> Thanks for the new vocabulary word. :up:


I blame Star Trek!
(4:51)




Just proves all that time watching Trek didn't go to waste.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh. I thought of that while I was watching, and then...forgot about it.
> Not a chance. They've done absolutely nothing to set that up. And adding a whole new complication when they're already rushing at a crazy pace to get through what they already have on the table...
> 
> Not a chance.


I saw a theory that Eurone was dragging Rhaegal from the water for Qyburn. I was like THEY BETTER NOT EVEN.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> False, it's because Jon's Daddy (Her older brother) was next in line, the line of succession follows him and his children. Has nothing to do with his sex.


Certainly it does for the UK's succession. As pointed out in the wikipedia link posted earlier Prince George of Cambridge, Queen Elizabeth II's great-grandson is 3rd in line to the throne after only his father Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and his father Charles, Prince of Wales (the Queen's oldest child). So George comes before any of the Queen's younger children.

But that's not the only way succession can work. I believe there are other systems where a person's children only cut in line _after_ the person has been crowned; otherwise secession would work through the current monarch's qualifying children before considering any of their descendants. In those systems a King could only be succeeded by a grandchild if all of the King's qualifying children had predeceased him.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

robojerk said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bla57y


Though you could argue that this was might have just been the token force Danny brought to the organized parley; not necessarily her entire surviving army from the boats. Still, under a hundred Unsullied (even adding 1 dragon in the background) makes for a pretty weak showing.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Jonathan_S said:


> Though you could argue that this was might have just been the token force Danny brought to the organized parley; not necessarily her entire surviving army from the boats. Still, under a hundred Unsullied (even adding 1 dragon in the background) makes for a pretty weak showing.


Didn't Grey Worm say half his men were killed during the battle against the NK? This doesn't look like the other half to me. Some of them must be with Jon.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Can a dragon drop leaflets? I feel there's a way to get the citizens out of the Red Keep by convincing them that they are there as canon fodder.

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Didn't Grey Worm say half his men were killed during the battle against the NK? This doesn't look like the other half to me. Some of them must be with Jon.


Pretty much everyone removed half of their forces from the war table. Although I saw no Dothraki there.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

allan said:


> Here's a problem I have with birth order. What if the #1 son is a terrible ruler? Maybe not Joffrey level, but bad enough that everyone agrees. And maybe the #3 (either gender) would make a great ruler. Is the kingdom screwed?


That's a problem for any fixed order of inheritance; doesn't mater how it traverses the descendant tree.

Though some systems have ways to either peacefully remove a problematic heir from succession (whether that power rests with the current king or with some kind of parliament), others may have ways to pick the best of the qualified candidates to crown rather than being locked into any fixed order. And of course all of them have the final resort, which is a terrible potential ruler can't inherit if he or she is already conveniently dead.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

allan said:


> Here's a problem I have with birth order. What if the #1 son is a terrible ruler? Maybe not Joffrey level, but bad enough that everyone agrees. And maybe the #3 (either gender) would make a great ruler. Is the kingdom screwed?


Simple solution. Prior to inheriting, the parent threatens the son: either they head to Castle Black and join the Night's Watch or they get killed. Then the next son can inherit.


----------



## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I was just watching the behind the scenes and thought it was great when Kit said that he knew the funeral pyre scene was over when Bran went running by.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> It is stupid to have lush vegetation and trees around a castle. You might as well not have doors and walls. So it makes perfect sense for everything to be razed and the ground completely barren to expose the attacking forces and give them no cover.


Except the side of the city facing land doesn't face a plain like they showed this week; it faces very mountainous terrain.

And deforesting a forest doesn't turn it into a desert; it turns it into a meadow. So you would have had a mountainous meadow. 

Look at the earlier pictures of King's Landing in the article linked above. This week's episode clearly took place outside a completely different city.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except the side of the city facing land doesn't face a plain like they showed this week; it faces very mountainous terrain.
> 
> And deforesting a forest doesn't turn it into a desert; it turns it into a meadow. So you would have had a mountainous meadow.
> 
> Look at the earlier pictures of King's Landing in the article linked above. This week's episode clearly took place outside a completely different city.


They moved King's landing over near Dorne and Highgarden! And they floated to the Sea of Dorne last episode. Everything makes sense now!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

With today's data download, this week's episode of GoT has dropped off my To Do List.

And by an annoying coincidence, I'm leaving first thing in the morning for the International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo, and I won't be back until...Sunday evening.

So rather than follow my usual practice of letting it go until the last minute under the assumption that it will fix itself, I've set up a manual recording. But you might want to check your own To Do Lists. Because missing an episode of GoT at this point might be...painful.


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Replying to myself lol but I'm so confused. Everything online says Emilia has green eyes but is this not blue with brown centers?


They look green in this picture, but I remembered them as blue.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Hazel eyes. Look like mine.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

smak said:


> Can a dragon drop leaflets? I feel there's a way to get the citizens out of the Red Keep by convincing them that they are there as canon fodder.


 Can the general populous read? Maybe some crude sketches of dragons and people running around on fire! Can they print 1000 leaflets?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Here is the director commenting on why Ghost didn't get a hug...
'Game Of Thrones' Director Explains Jon Snow's Inadequate Goodbye

Sorry, I call BS. When you have to explain why you didn't do something, it's clear you should have done it.



robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


I thought the entire purpose of saving Bran was to avoid losing our history.



uncdrew said:


> You have a guy who knows past, present and future and can help sort out all kinds of thing and you ask him nothing.


I don't believe he can see the future.

Having said that, it does seem odd that he would just drop out of the show at this point. Perhaps he still has a role to play?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

markb said:


> What do they think "dank" means?


They just wanted to make it clear they weren't referring to the dry "shrubbery".



robojerk said:


> HBO quietly removed the coffee cup from Game of Thrones
> 
> Our history is being rewritten!!!


Wait, this was really a thing? I assume this was either a photoshop joke or a behind the scenes photo. I saw HBOs response but just figured they were playing along. Now I need to go back and check.



humbb said:


> They did it really quickly too


Nothing motivates quites like unpaid advertising.



photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently neither do the show runners!
> 
> Game of Thrones fans are puzzled by the show's messed up King's Landing geography | JOE.co.uk


The pace of the show has been very quick lately. They just didn't have time to show us Cersei taking over Qarth



Rob Helmerichs said:


> They've done absolutely nothing to set that up. And adding a whole new complication when they're already rushing at a crazy pace to get through what they already have on the table...
> 
> Not a chance.


Nothing to set it up? Remember all that time a few season ago when Drogon disappeared? What do you think she was doing?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> With today's data download, this week's episode of GoT has dropped off my To Do List.
> 
> And by an annoying coincidence, I'm leaving first thing in the morning for the International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo, and I won't be back until...Sunday evening.
> 
> So rather than follow my usual practice of letting it go until the last minute under the assumption that it will fix itself, I've set up a manual recording. But you might want to check your own To Do Lists. Because missing an episode of GoT at this point might be...painful.


I had a 3 pm download and it is fine.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Wait, this was really a thing? I assume this was either a photoshop joke or a behind the scenes photo. I saw HBOs response but just figured they were playing along. Now I need to go back and check.


Oh, it real. But my problem is that there is no cup then there is then it is gone! What happened to the cup? Continuity issue here!


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh, it real. But my problem is that there is no cup then there is then it is gone! What happened to the cup? Continuity issue here!


Euron took it. He's sneaky.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

astrohip said:


> Here is the director commenting on why Ghost didn't get a hug...
> 'Game Of Thrones' Director Explains Jon Snow's Inadequate Goodbye
> 
> Sorry, I call BS. When you have to explain why you didn't do something, it's clear you should have done it.


Just the fact that they act like it was too difficult/expensive to make happen. I agree with the tweets back at him.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Just the fact that they act like it was too difficult/expensive to make happen. I agree with the tweets back at him.


This was my fave...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125591163006803968


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

For reasons that are entirely silly, my GoT recording is set to record every airing, including duplicates.

So for reasons that are equally silly, I checked every one. 6 recordings, 5 cups. It was last seen in today's 3:00am recording. It was not in today's 6:35pm recording. It wasn't zoom trickery either, someone clearly edited it out. You'd never notice, but if you look *very* closely, the lighting and shadows on the table where it used to be aren't quite right. (Or, it could be a coffee stain)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm leaving first thing in the morning for the International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo


Do you have an entourage following you banging coconuts to simulate the sound of riding horses?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Replying to myself lol but I'm so confused. Everything online says Emilia has green eyes but is this not blue with brown centers?


Eh... they look the color of my eyes. Green. But that said, if someone had asked me the color of her eyes, my answer would have been blue.


----------



## jeetkunedo (Jul 24, 2006)

First of all, I love Dany. When I rewatch, it's usually her scenes. But I don't think she'd make a good ruler. She's moving closer and closer to becoming a mad queen.

So as for Sansa spilling the beans, I agree with her completely. Jon made her swear to keep a secret before she knew what it was. We all know there are some secrets you shouldn't keep. Honor be damned. 

I'm glad Ghost will be relatively safe in the ("real") North, instead of having to go into battle again. I wish Jon had given him a proper goodbye, but I know interacting with him would have been expensive from a CGI standpoint. So I'll give them a pass and assume they said goodbye offscreen.

PREDICTIONS:

The Hound - He'll kill the Mountain, but will also die in the process.

Sam - He'll become Grand Myster, and author of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Arya - She'll kick some ass, but won't kill Cersei or the Mountain. I hope she lives. But she killed the biggest villain, so I doubt it. She'll still go out blazing.

Tyrion - I hope he lives and gets his own vinyard, making wine called The Imp's Delight, that only his close friends can drink, and dies at 80 with a woman's mouth around his cock.

Cersei - She'll be killed by Jamie. Or maybe Tyrion. But I really wish it would be Gray Worm. Or even Dany. It won't be, but I wish it would.

Jamie - He was doing the classic "be mean to push them away to keep them safe because I love them" thing. I hope they both live and get back together, but this is GoT.

Dany - She'll either die (hopefully not by Jon's hand) or will claim the Iron Throne, but not the Seven Kingdoms, which will be independent.

The Iron Throne - It won't be any of the most popular theories. I like the idea of Jon, or Jon and Dany. Or even Sansa and Tyrion. But it will be something unexpected.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Have we ever seen the Hound getting sex (male or female)?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Now that Gendry has been recognized, he will probably fall onto the Iron Throne just because he's the only one left.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Euron took it. He's sneaky.


Dany never sees him coming.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

File under fake news about fake news: This article claims it wasn't even a Starbucks coffee cup, but a craft services cup that looks like Starbucks. So, fake news... Sorta. But the bigger fake news is the claim in this article that the free advertising Starbucks got is worth $2.3 billion.

Starbucks got an estimated $2.3 billion in free advertising from 'Game of Thrones' gaffe, and it wasn't even its coffee cup


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Replying to myself lol but I'm so confused. Everything online says Emilia has green eyes but is this not blue with brown centers?


Yanny!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I honestly don't see it that way but I'm more than happy to be wrong. I like your version better than mine!


I'm with the photo girl. Well, maybe...

I think Jaime tried getting away from Cersei but just can't. The bonds are too strong. He still think he's somewhat of a good guy, so he helped the North, tried to be with Brienne, and at least dumped her in a semi-decent way.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I saw a theory that Eurone was dragging Rhaegal from the water for Qyburn. I was like THEY BETTER NOT EVEN.


But The Mountain wasn't dead, was he? I thought Red Viper severely injured him, but didn't actually kill him.

I could be wrong.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Didn't Grey Worm say half his men were killed during the battle against the NK? This doesn't look like the other half to me. Some of them must be with Jon.


Yes, most definitely the case. Half the Unsullied died as did half the Northmen. As was said in the episode.

As you approach the enemy to discuss surrender before a battle, you don't bring your full army. You bring a small contingent. And you send out your mouth pieces, as they did here. It was all standard operating procedure. Now you go back to your sides and discuss strategy and then fight.

Sometimes you get a midnight raid, sometimes the fight starts at daybreak. Sometimes your queen has too many espressos and hops on her dragon and lights up the place. We'll see...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except the side of the city facing land doesn't face a plain like they showed this week; it faces very mountainous terrain.
> 
> And deforesting a forest doesn't turn it into a desert; it turns it into a meadow. So you would have had a mountainous meadow.
> 
> Look at the earlier pictures of King's Landing in the article linked above. This week's episode clearly took place outside a completely different city.


Yep. Major fail.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> But The Mountain wasn't dead, was he? I thought Red Viper severely injured him, but didn't actually kill him.
> 
> I could be wrong.


yeahhhh I'm pretty sure he was dead


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

There was a Dothraki in the war council meeting who removed a piece from the board. It was subtle.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

MacThor said:


> There was a Dothraki in the war council meeting who removed a piece from the board. It was subtle.


Yeah, I keep meaning to rewatch that scene, but I did catch that.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MacThor said:


> There was a Dothraki in the war council meeting who removed a piece from the board. It was subtle.


Other than the ones that were removed based on their discussion about their losses? Was it the iron fleet?


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

teknikel said:


> How much can a dragon carry and how high? How is the "bomb" stored on the aircraft? How does one get the bomb sighting correct?
> 
> My question is what's the maximum angle upward for Scorpion targeting?


Based on eyeballing the mounts they had them on on the ships, no more than 25-30 degrees. The scorpions are long enough that it'd be really annoying to build a true high angle 45+ degree mount.
So once you get overhead you should be able to tightly spiral down while staying outside their engagement angles - unless the scorpions are set very far apart with overlapping overhead fields of fire.

And dragons can cheat a bit on the bombing and hover briefly so you're just dropping stuff straight down. You'll still miss a lot, but amphoras of wildfire have a reasonable splash range, so you don't need pinpoint accuracy.


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

I never did get a chance to go back and check for the coffee cup and after hearing that they had removed it from streaming sources and future airings I was afraid I'd miss it since my recording was already deleted. I checked last night and the cup was still there on the Xfinity on demand version.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

We've seen dragons hover, so you would think she could fly up high, then just slowly drop down and lay waste on them.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

And we have seen Dragons fly very high above the cloud cover in the previous battle. So while they can't breath fire on the ships, Drogon can destroy them all with rocks (wildfire even better, but I don't think anyone has that except Cersei). Even if it takes time, there's no place to hide from the sky.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Replying to myself lol but I'm so confused. Everything online says Emilia has green eyes but is this not blue with brown centers?


My eyes are kind of like that. To this day, my mom insists that they're green, even though everyone else sees them as blue.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I saw a theory that Eurone was dragging Rhaegal from the water for Qyburn. I was like THEY BETTER NOT EVEN.


What, they think he'll go sail all the way back there and dredge for the dragon after he already sailed to Kings Landing? Remember he tells Cersei that he's sure the dragon is dead because he saw it crash into the water and sink. If he'd drug Rhaegal out he'd have said that instead.

There's a better chance that a severely injured Rhaegal will swim ashore like a water snake, heal up, and come back for vengeance (not dead yet) than there is of Cersei's side getting their hands on him to reanimate.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> wildfire even better, but I don't think anyone has that except Cersei


That's another point of Tyrion's stupidity since season 7 started. They thought that had time to fight the undead, he should've at least told how he used wildfire to fend off Stannis's fleet during the Battle of Backwater and how devastating it was, hell Davos is with team Dany now and he was there on Stannis' side and knows first hand how horribly good it is at burning things. Someone should've thought to bring, hell even kidnapped a pyromancer or three to make wildfire for the fight against the undead. Then they would also have it for this battle..


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Other than the ones that were removed based on their discussion about their losses? Was it the iron fleet?


No - as they we discussing their losses, Grey Worm, Jon, and the Dothraki "officer" each removed part of their troops from the board. I inferred that they wanted us to know there were at least some riders left.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

So, since Bran apparently didn't tell Tyrion about Aegon/Jon, what the heck _did_ they talk about?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I mean they do everything else in the dark why not that? It's the only tactical strategy that makes sense having lost _another _dragon! Why aren't the characters at all smart lately?
> 
> Also can she command Drogon without being with him to give a verbal command? I mean would it be possible for them to distract while Drogon flew around and burned things from the other direction? The entirety of KL cannot possibly have scorpions along the wall so why are they not just flying around and over KL and blasting them? I'm growing so frustrated the more I think about all this.


The dragons fought the Night King in the dark ... you are right, they COULD fly at night, but guards would be watching from the castle walls at all times, I'm sure. That's their job.

I've decided that I'm not going to overthink or second guess things until the series is over. I just need to suspend my disbelief for a couple of more weeks.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

One foreshadowing (for what, I have no idea) that they keep bringing up is Tyrion being celibate for years...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

"Science" question: Could the dragons create a steamy, blinding fog by breathing fire at the ocean near the shore of King's Landing? This definitely won't happen because the writers aren't into actual battle plans. Just wondering.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> "Science" question: Could the dragons create a steamy, blinding fog by breathing fire at the ocean near the shore of King's Landing? This definitely won't happen because the writers aren't into actual battle plans. Just wondering.


Probably not, or at least not over more than an area smaller than, say, a basketball court. It takes a crazy amount of energy to boil water, and it conducts heat really well.

Trying to nearly boil the top of the ocean around a city should require vastly more heat energy than even stone melting magical dragon fire should produce because the heat will very rapidly spread from the point the flame impacts out into the wider ocean. You have to dump heat into the entire area of sea you want covered in steam faster than it can be lost to transmission through the water or back into the air.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> Probably not, or at least not over more than an area smaller than, say, a basketball court. It takes a crazy amount of energy to boil water, and it conducts heat really well.
> 
> Trying to nearly boil the top of the ocean around a city should require vastly more heat energy than even stone melting magical dragon fire should produce because the heat will very rapidly spread from the point the flame impacts out into the wider ocean. You have to dump heat into the entire area of sea you want covered in steam faster than it can be lost to transmission through the water or back into the air.


Sounds like they should go for the more straightforward plan of making their own scorpion and firing it from Drogon down to King's Landing.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Sounds like they should go for the more straightforward plan of making their own scorpion and firing it from Drogon down to King's Landing.


Or just have him drop giant rocks, or cows, or dragon poo. Have him light stuff on fire before dropping them.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

getreal said:


> you are right, they COULD fly at night, but guards would be watching from the castle walls at all times, I'm sure. That's their job.


But the guards wouldn't see them in the dark until they were already being lit up with dragon fire. They may hear some flapping but wouldn't be able to see where it was coming from until too late!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Doesn't the Citadel have a lighthouse on top? so maybe they can light up the sky with mirrors and fire...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Doesn't the Citadel have a lighthouse on top? so maybe they can light up the sky with mirrors and fire...


I'm not sure what help that would be all the way across the continent to KL though?


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Have the Blu-Rays had any deleted scenes? I'm wondering if we can hope for more from this season's discs.

I know she skipped the party, but we never got to see _anyone_ say "Good job, Arya! Thanks for saving the human race and all."


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

tlc said:


> Have the Blu-Rays had any deleted scenes? I'm wondering if we can hope for more from this season's discs.
> 
> I know she skipped the party, but we never got to see _anyone_ say "Good job, Arya! Thanks for saving the human race and all."


Well, Dany said it but she wasn't around to hear.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

tlc said:


> Have the Blu-Rays had any deleted scenes? I'm wondering if we can hope for more from this season's discs.
> 
> I know she skipped the party, but we never got to see _anyone_ say "Good job, Arya! Thanks for saving the human race and all."


I'm sure that's one more casualty of the "life in fast-forward" we've been treated to these past couple of seasons.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Sounds like they should go for the more straightforward plan of making their own scorpion and firing it from Drogon down to King's Landing.


Yes, a Dragon mounted scorpion to fire at the scorpions!!!

Genius.

I'm not sure what dumb military tactic or strategy we'll see next.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I like the magical physics of releasing this huge amount of kinetic force and the boat doesn't even rock; so firing from atop a dragon certainly makes complete sense.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I like the magical physics of releasing this huge amount of kinetic force and the boat doesn't even rock; so firing from atop a dragon certainly makes complete sense.


I half expected to see the boat buck up out of the water when they shot that thing.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I thought that no one knows how to make wildfire anymore. The stuff they used in previous episodes was already existing and secretly stored in the lower keep, from Aerys's time. Am I misremembering that?


----------



## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

madscientist said:


> I thought that no one knows how to make wildfire anymore. The stuff they used in previous episodes was already existing and secretly stored in the lower keep, from Aerys's time. Am I misremembering that?


They claimed to be making it still in Season 2. Although I have no idea if they used it all up in Seasons 2 and 6, or if anyone that knows how to make it survived.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The people who make memes have been working over time past few weeks.

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bm60s5


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I thought that no one knows how to make wildfire anymore. The stuff they used in previous episodes was already existing and secretly stored in the lower keep, from Aerys's time. Am I misremembering that?


The pyromancers in the Alchemists' guild knows how.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

robojerk said:


> The people who make memes have been working over time past few weeks.


The memes on the various reddit subs have been extremely entertaining. I have never had so much fun hating a show. Well, not since 24 anyway.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I'm not sure what help that would be all the way across the continent to KL though?


I meant that the technology exists and thus can be replicated...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I thought this article was really well written.
How Euron Greyjoy Embodies the Late-Season Plot Failures of 'Game of Thrones'


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> Now that Gendry has been recognized, he will probably fall onto the Iron Throne just because he's the only one left.


Well, if he falls on the Iron Throne, then there will be no one (Arya?) left. Lot of pointy things on that chair.


----------



## Lady Honora (Oct 9, 2018)

cbrrider said:


> The actor who played him died of pancreatic cancer. So, it never got resolved.


With the way things have been in Westeros, Payne could have died of natural causes, or killed by somebody else, which is more likely. Arya can't kill everybody on her list herself after all.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

cbrrider said:


> The actor who played him died of pancreatic cancer. So, it never got resolved.


Actually, that actor is still alive.


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Actually I just read that the actor was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given a few months to live, but survived!





kaszeta said:


> Actually, that actor is still alive.


I stand corrected. Twice. Good for the actor though.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I'll guess that Wildfyre makes another appearance.

Cersei loves the stuff. I'm sure she had Q and others working hard finding or making more.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I meant that the technology exists and thus can be replicated...


Yeah, given time they could build another one.
Though that's basically a low power searchlight (and one not even intended to aim upwards) -- and searchlights suck for finding flying things at night. They do a much better job of pinpointing themselves as a target.

They're much better at holding a flying object once sited to allow AA fire to concentrate on it. (Or in later WWII visually highlighting a target that had been picked up by radar so all the manually aimed guns could see and fire at it) But sweeping the beams around looking for the thing you just heard has a low probability of success.

So despite the name, searchlights are normally used for targeting spotted objects rather than searching for them in the first place.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Checking the Math: The Big Event From Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 is Just as Impossible as You Think


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Checking the Math: The Big Event From Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 is Just as Impossible as You Think


#TeamNoneOfTheseSchmucks

I'm on board.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

And with that kind of propulsive force, the firing ship would have been flipped over. Multiple times


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> #TeamNoneOfTheseSchmucks
> 
> I'm on board.


Me too.

I'm Team Hot Pie.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Checking the Math: The Big Event From Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 is Just as Impossible as You Think


Maybe Euron Greyjoy is the great-great-great-great-great grandfather of the Green Arrow.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought this article was really well written.
> How Euron Greyjoy Embodies the Late-Season Plot Failures of 'Game of Thrones'


Thanks for posting. I enjoyed it. The author is spot-on.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe Euron Greyjoy is the great-great-great-great-great grandfather of the Green Arrow.


It would be the other way... great-great-great-great-great grandson of the Green Arrow


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

This makes me laugh. They really aren't even trying for location continuity at this point.



Spoiler


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

photoshopgrl said:


> This makes me laugh. They really aren't even trying for location continuity at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Maybe Cersei razed the entire city and constructed new walls/beaches?


----------



## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Anyone know why the episode is titled "Last of the Starks" ??


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

WO312 said:


> Anyone know why the episode is titled "Last of the Starks" ??


Well...

John isn't a Stark.

Arya has no name.

Bran is the 3-eyed bird man.

Sansa is all that's left, and she's a dud.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

WO312 said:


> Anyone know why the episode is titled "Last of the Starks" ??


Theorizing here ... I believe Tyrion said this to Bran, that he was the last of the Starks, and Bran said he wasn't, he's the three-eyed raven. There is a fan fic theory going around (putting in spoilers to be safe) that:



Spoiler



that Bran isn't really Bran, that he's being mind controlled in some way by some evil-minded other three-eyed raven force


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

That's my take. Bran is the last (male) Stark, even though he would argue he's not really Bran anymore


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I thought it was Arya that said it when the 4 "Starks" were having their meeting by the tree...


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I thought it was Arya that said it when the 4 "Starks" were having their meeting by the tree...


You're right. Arya says to Jon "We're family. The four of us. The Last of the Starks."

I was thinking of the scene in the hall celebration where Tyrion and Bran are having a conversation. Tyrion mentions the

T: This (the wheelchair) is clever. Even better than the saddle I designed for you.
Bran: It's the same as Aeryn Targaryen built for his crippled nephew 120 years ago. I liked that one.
T: You know our history better than anyone. That will be useful as Lord of Winterfell
Bran: I'm not Lord of Winterfell
T: You're the only surviving trueborn son of Ned Stark
Bran: _Mysterious look, saying nothing_


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Yeah there are potentially 4 Starks depending on how Arya and Bran charachterize themselves.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

markp99 said:


> That's my take. Bran is the last (male) Stark, even though he would argue he's not really Bran anymore


As the 3-eyed raven, I suppose Bran is now a "birdbrain" ...


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bmhnai
I wonder if HBO will just not air those segments anymore after having their words being turned against the show so savagely.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, only half the Dothraki survived. Shame will probably kill the rest.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I used to wonder if I would read the remaining books, because the show was going to spoil the ending.

Now I'm definitely going to read them, because the show is _spoiling_ the ending.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

They really have thrown all sense of continuity out the window.


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

The showrunners seem just kinda... dumb! How did they manage to get here, though? The show built a huge audience because this show _was_ awesome. I know that they've run out of book material, but is that really all that was holding this show together?


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Checking the Math: The Big Event From Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 is Just as Impossible as You Think


In a similar vein:
A Medieval Warfare Expert Explains the Crossbows on 'Game of Thrones'


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I think the show runners/writers are done. As in I'm done with this. From what I understand HBO wanted more shows but they didn't want to do them. I.E. they want to move on to other projects and just finish this. Which sucks for us.


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

jakerock said:


> I think the show runners/writers are done. As in I'm done with this. From what I understand HBO wanted more shows but they didn't want to do them. I.E. they want to move on to other projects and just finish this. Which sucks for us.


But if the showrunners were done, HBO could have just replaced them. Although I don't think it's a good idea to keep the show running forever. It just needs a more competent ending.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I’m glad I never really got invested in this show like I did with Lost. I’m enjoying it well enough without going crazy with nitpicks. I’m curious how it will end, but I can’t really say I care that much with whatever direction they choose. I’m just so glad the torture of Reek is behind me.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

MacThor said:


> I used to wonder if I would read the remaining books, because the show was going to spoil the ending.
> 
> Now I'm definitely going to read them, because the show is _spoiling_ the ending.


Can't agree with this more. I posted this back early in season 7 (Aug. 2017): 


TampaThunder said:


> Without a doubt we're seeing the inability of TV writers to duplicate the solid foundation that had been provided by George R.R. Martin's writing. As much as I enjoy the show I'm very much looking forward to reading the book(s) that finish this story. I just hope that Martin's version is not influenced in any way by what we've seen on the screen.


I'm praying to the seven gods that the last two episodes don't get buried under an avalanche of discussion about how none of it really makes any sense.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TampaThunder said:


> I'm praying to the seven gods that the last two episodes don't get buried under an avalanche of discussion about how none of it really makes any sense.


I think after this last episode I've given up on it making any real sense. I'm just going to find the moments I can enjoy and go from there, assuming everyone is going to either die or have a stupid ending anyhow.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jakerock said:


> I think the show runners/writers are done. As in I'm done with this. From what I understand HBO wanted more shows but they didn't want to do them. I.E. they want to move on to other projects and just finish this. Which sucks for us.


I suspect the problem was they guessed what they would need to wrap it up, and they guessed wrong. They needed more than they thought they would.

I thought last season was great; it looked they they really set up the finish beautifully. But now they're not sticking the landing.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect the problem was they guessed what they would need to wrap it up, and they guessed wrong. They needed more than they thought they would.
> 
> I thought last season was great; it looked they they really set up the finish beautifully. But now they're not sticking the landing.


Usually knowing years in advance when you're going to be done helps a show end better. But I'm not sure they liked having to make these extra long episodes though.

-smak-


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smak said:


> Usually knowing years in advance when you're going to be done helps a show end better. But I'm not sure they liked having to make these extra long episodes though.
> 
> -smak-


Yeah, this seems to be a situation where they tried to do the right thing, but botched it.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MacThor said:


> I used to wonder if I would read the remaining books, because the show was going to spoil the ending.
> 
> Now I'm definitely going to read them, because the show is _spoiling_ the ending.


I didn't like the first book and abandoned the second years ago when I was a naive youth who still liked Dragonlance nonsense. I plan to read the whole series when the last book comes out in 2048.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

To be fair, Season 6 was excellent, and took place almost entirely beyond the books.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

MacThor said:


> To be fair, Season 6 was excellent, and took place almost entirely beyond the books.


This is the internet. We don't do "fair."


----------



## purwater (Aug 25, 2005)

jakerock said:


> I think the show runners/writers are done. As in I'm done with this. From what I understand HBO wanted more shows but they didn't want to do them. I.E. they want to move on to other projects and just finish this. Which sucks for us.


The sad thing is that more than likely the show runners will never do another project of this popularity or cultural significance the rest of their careers. It will be hard to top this just like it was for the show runners for Lost. I know people get bored and want to move on, but when this show will be tied to their legacy forever you'd think they'd want to make it end great. Have people talking about it and watching it for years. People will, but like Lost many will be complaining about the way they wrapped up the series. I still enjoy it. I look forward to seeing how it ends. I just hope it's not a huge disappointment.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

purwater said:


> The sad thing is that more than likely the show runners will never do another project of this popularity or cultural significance the rest of their careers. It will be hard to top this just like it was for the show runners for Lost. I know people get bored and want to move on, but when this show will be tied to their legacy forever you'd think they'd want to make it end great. Have people talking about it and watching it for years. People will, but like Lost many will be complaining about the way they wrapped up the series. I still enjoy it. I look forward to seeing how it ends. I just hope it's not a huge disappointment.


Here's a funny for you all. I was a devoted Lost watcher. I even had shirts made up that said "Get LOST" and was on the Lost forums obsessively, probably more so than with GOT. I lost my faith in the last season of that show and ended up getting behind on watching, got spoiled on how it ended and never watched that final episode. I really should though. I still believe the first 2 seasons were some of the best TV I've ever seen. The only show that's ever been amazing for me from episode 1 to the series finale was Breaking Bad. I really expected GOT to be up there too so I'm just really sad this is how it's going to end. I just hope, like you, that I can find some satisfaction.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

purwater said:


> The sad thing is that more than likely the show runners will never do another project of this popularity or cultural significance the rest of their careers.


D&D have been hired to do the next set of Star Wars movies, after Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

astrohip said:


> D&D have been hired to do the next set of Star Wars movies, after Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker


 There's rumors that the Disney CEO Bob Iger is furious at Kathleen Kennedy, President of Lucas film, for how underperforming Solo was and the negative reviews of Ep VIII are hurting the Star Wars brand Disney paid billions for. Maybe he'll see this **** show and get rid of D&D kind of like how he stepped in and rehired James Gunn for Guardians of the Galaxy.


----------



## purwater (Aug 25, 2005)

astrohip said:


> D&D have been hired to do the next set of Star Wars movies, after Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker


I didn't know that. Well let's hope they don't get tired of it at the 1 hour 45 minute mark.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bmtle5


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

David Benioff and D.B. Weiss's Rush to Finish 'Game of Thrones'



> The perplexing part of _Thrones_' hurry to remove itself from our screens is that almost no one was rooting for a rapid resolution. Viewers don't want it to end. The media doesn't want it to end. HBO doesn't want it to end. Only the showrunners are ready to wrap things up. In an interview published before the final premiere, D&D made it clear that they were the ones insisting on stopping at eight seasons and limiting the last two to a total of 13 episodes. "[HBO] said, 'We'll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be,'" Weiss said. Benioff added, "HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season." But the showrunners refused. "We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that," Benioff continued. "As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends."


In all honesty, I'm not all that bent out of shape about the show's pace moving to ludicrous speed but it does seem like "73 hours" was a gross miscalculation. I'm guessing the HBO big wigs probably wish they'd switched to show runners who weren't tired of doing GoT and had squeezed one more full season out of the show for next year.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

purwater said:


> The sad thing is that more than likely the show runners will never do another project of this popularity or cultural significance the rest of their careers. It will be hard to top this just like it was for the show runners for Lost. I know people get bored and want to move on, but when this show will be tied to their legacy forever you'd think they'd want to make it end great. Have people talking about it and watching it for years. People will, but like Lost many will be complaining about the way they wrapped up the series. I still enjoy it. I look forward to seeing how it ends. I just hope it's not a huge disappointment.


Too late now, as it's in the can, but you're correct. This could (perhaps, fingers crossed) be remembered as awesome.

But I'm thinking we'll talk about this 10 years from now and the major theme will be about how it could have ended better.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Here's a funny for you all. I was a devoted Lost watcher. I even had shirts made up that said "Get LOST" and was on the Lost forums obsessively, probably more so than with GOT. I lost my faith in the last season of that show and ended up getting behind on watching, got spoiled on how it ended and never watched that final episode. I really should though. I still believe the first 2 seasons were some of the best TV I've ever seen. The only show that's ever been amazing for me from episode 1 to the series finale was Breaking Bad. I really expected GOT to be up there too so I'm just really sad this is how it's going to end. I just hope, like you, that I can find some satisfaction.


Lost, Justified, The Wire, Six Feet Under, GoT... there should be a "best show ever" thread somewhere.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> D&D have been hired to do the next set of Star Wars movies, after Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker


STAR WARS!!!!!!

They're all like "Game of ... whats?"


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> David Benioff and D.B. Weiss's Rush to Finish 'Game of Thrones'
> 
> In all honesty, I'm not all that bent out of shape about the show's pace moving to ludicrous speed but it does seem like "73 hours" was a gross miscalculation. I'm guessing the HBO big wigs probably wish they'd switched to show runners who weren't tired of doing GoT and had squeezed one more full season out of the show for next year.


Exactly how it should have gone down.

I'm a fan of "leaving on top" but this had at least a year or two before any royal shark-jumping was on the horizon.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Marco said:


> This is the internet. We don't do "fair."


Fair enough.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Exactly how it should have gone down.
> 
> I'm a fan of "leaving on top" but this had at least a year or two before any royal shark-jumping was on the horizon.


None of this would be happening if GRRM had just done his one damn job!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> David Benioff and D.B. Weiss's Rush to Finish 'Game of Thrones'
> 
> In all honesty, I'm not all that bent out of shape about the show's pace moving to ludicrous speed but it does seem like "73 hours" was a gross miscalculation. I'm guessing the HBO big wigs probably wish they'd switched to show runners who weren't tired of doing GoT and had squeezed one more full season out of the show for next year.


This is honestly disgraceful. HBO should find someone else right now and yank the last two episodes and reboot. I'd be more than happy to forgo seeing them and get another proper season next year. Unfortunately we've already sat waiting on this so long, all the actors have moved on.


----------



## Lady Honora (Oct 9, 2018)

cheesesteak said:


> None of this would be happening if GRRM had just done his one damn job!


He had no business writing prequels before he finished the original series!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Is there any evidence that D&D "got tired" of the show and wanted to quit? I really do think it's much more likely that when it came time to determine how much room they needed to wrap it up, they simply underestimated. And by the time they realized they needed more, they were committed to the schedule they had set.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> This is honestly disgraceful. HBO should find someone else right now and yank the last two episodes and reboot. I'd be more than happy to forgo seeing them and get another proper season next year. Unfortunately we've already sat waiting on this so long, all the actors have moved on.


I agree.

And then show us these two episodes later. Before the real final two or after, I don't care. But we'd still tune in to watch them by the millions.

Then we can all talk about which ending we liked more.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Is there any evidence that D&D "got tired" of the show and wanted to quit? I really do think it's much more likely that when it came time to determine how much room they needed to wrap it up, they simply underestimated. And by the time they realized they needed more, they were committed to the schedule they had set.


I was flippant when I said they got tired of GoT but schedules change and get reworked all the time. They bleeped up and some mover and shaker in HBO land should have stepped in and done whatever needed to be done. What that something was, I don't know but it shouldn't have been this.


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

The number of episodes isn't the only problem, though. The could have gotten away with 6 episodes with a different script. It wouldn't be perfect, but a different script would could have made the remaining six episode a lot better.

I would imagine HBO execs get to review an outline of the season before the script is written, and then they get to review the script before shooting. So there's lots of blame to go around. The execs should have seen the request for a large budget to shoot a massive battle scene and started asking questions.

Special effects aren't what made this show popular. Storytelling is.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Lady Honora said:


> He had no business writing prequels before he finished the original series!!!


Exactly. That history of the Targaryens book is 700 pages long. That probably would have been enough to finish The Winds of Winter.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think they got into the Captain Marvel/Superman issue where the characters are too powerful, so we have to do stupid things to them in order to make a fair fight.

Oh, 3 dragons, the Dothraki/Unsullied armies, a genius tactitian in Tyrion, let's kill a dragon, one stupidly, let's have the Dothraki army commit suicide, let's make Tyrion stupid...Let's kill all Dany's friends so she continues to do stupid things in anger...

-smak-


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

markb said:


> Special effects aren't what made this show popular. Storytelling nudity and violence is.


Fixed that for you. I think the story telling is why it remained popular.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

astrohip said:


> D&D have been hired to do the next set of Star Wars movies, after Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker


Not true. I have on good authority that their next project is a remake of "John from Cincinnati"


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Not true. I have on good authority that their next project is a remake of "John from Cincinnati"


Fine by me. Put Milch on the Tormund/Ghost Game of Thrones spinoff we all deserve to make it a "fair trade."


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markb said:


> Special effects aren't what made this show popular. Storytelling is.


Exactly. Also why the only episode I've truly enjoyed this season is episode 2.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

In a way I agree. On the other hand, the way they treated Ghost and blamed special effects is also how they treated storytelling and blamed kind of forgetting.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

At this point they seem very a kin to my 8 and 11 year olds searching for an excuse when caught red handed.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

cbrrider said:


> Question is what the hell is Jaime hoping to do riding into King's Landing?


I think he wants to save Cersei. I don't think he is going to fight on her side nor is he going to kill her, but rather he's going to try to convince her to flee before she gets captured and killed. (Ironically, this is what Ned Stark did as well. We'll see how this goes for Jaime.)

He was probably holding out hope that Tyrion would have been able to convince Daenerys to let Cersei live because of her child, but once he found out about the dragon having been killed, he figured that Cersei's life being spared was off the table.



cheesesteak said:


> I hope Arya doesn't end up killing Cercei. Kind of diminishes the importance of all the other characters if only one does the two most important things.


That depends on when she kills Cersei. If she kills Cersei after Daenerys has already taken King's Landing, then Arya isn't single-handedly winning anything, but merely getting her revenge.



TAsunder said:


> That's assuming we believe it's his baby and was conceived before he left for the battle there. In theory if she became pregnant shortly before telling Jaime then it's only been since he went to Winterfell no?


Since Cersei told Jaime, the following things have happened:

Tyrion's group went back north to Dragonstone
Jon's group went north of the Wall to capture a wight
They traveled south again after the wight was captured
Arrangements were made to meet at King's Landing for the truce
Daenerys sent her armies to King's Landing and Sansa sent Brienne
Daenerys sent her armies to Winterfell while Euron sailed to Essos and back with the Golden Company
Daenerys sent part of her remaining army to Dragonstone
Daenerys sent part? of her remaining remaining army to King's Landing
By the time Euron returned with the Golden Company, Cersei should at the very least have been showing enough that Euron would have known the baby wasn't his. In a different season, I would have said Cersei was clearly lying. But at this point the writers seem to care far more about the destination than the journey, so who knows.

If an appropriate amount of time has passed, then Tyrion should either know by now that Cersei was lying or think she had already given birth. But Jaime trying to save a pregnant Cersei is a more sympathetic situation than Cersei alone, so the writers might be trying to go for that without paying attention to how they could have realistically gotten to that point.

It is possible, however, that after seeing people's complaints last season, they decided to justify Cersei's pregnancy by writing it such that she had had a miscarriage with Jaime's baby, but is now pregnant with Euron's.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> It is possible, however, that after seeing people's complaints last season, they decided to justify Cersei's pregnancy by writing it such that she had had a miscarriage with Jaime's baby, but is now pregnant with Euron's.


Sadly, I wouldn't put it past them to think that only a few weeks have passed since she was last with Jaime...


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tivotvaddict said:


> All this talk of Jon being a better ruler than Dany isn't rooted in facts.
> 
> - The fact is he failed miserably at convincing Mance Rayder and the Free Folk to follow him (saving grace: Stannis).
> 
> ...


Jon's side was outnumbered in those three battles. Plus, as Robert Baratheon demonstrated, winning battles does not necessarily make one a good leader.

Jon failed to convince Mance to kneel to Stannis, but I consider that to be more Stannis' fault than Jon's. Jon did not fail to convince Tormund to join him once he had full say in the terms. He was betrayed by a handful of his men as Lord Commander, but so was his predecessor. And while the Vale was vital in helping Jon's army take back Winterfell, that wouldn't have happened had Jon not united parts of the North with the Free Folk in the first place. Similarly, while Arya might have struck the killing blow, that couldn't have happened without Jon having united the North and Free Folk with Daenerys and her armies. (I'm leaving the Vale out because I think they were there more for Sansa than Jon.)

Jon is able to unite disparate groups of people because he does not care about having power for himself. That, ironically, gives him power because people see that, and are willing to put their faith in him. As Varys said, "Power resides where men believe it resides."


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Family said:


> It seems I am in the minority, but have no patience for Dany's thirst for power, after having declared her platform being for the people. She could have attained those "goals" with Jon as king.


I agree. It wasn't fair of her to ask Jon to lie by omission just so her claim wouldn't be weakened. If she truly cared for "breaking the wheel" for the common people, she would have supported a leader they chose. But apparently she is only a breaker of others' chains.



photoshopgrl said:


> Honestly I agree with most of it but most of all the Bran thing. Why are they not asking him to at minimum warg into some birds and do some scouting for them?????


Who says he isn't?

...for Sansa.

Speaking of Bran, I wonder if he meant "mostly I live in the past" literally. Surely there must be more to that ability than destroying one boy's brain and giving him a new name.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Apparently neither do the show runners!
> 
> Game of Thrones fans are puzzled by the show's messed up King's Landing geography | JOE.co.uk


To be fair, Season 8's geography was consistent with Season 7's:










It was nice of Cersei to have used the wildfire that remained after having blown up the Sept of Baelor to clear out the hills in order to make room for Daenerys' armies to stand comfortably in front of King's Landing. It's too bad that gesture of good will went unrecognized. Daenerys might as well have been flipping the bird at her when she showed up with such a small army in this episode.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> I'm sure that's one more casualty of the "life in fast-forward" we've been treated to these past couple of seasons.


I didn't have a problem with Arya not being thanked in person. Had she been at the party, she would have been. But her wanting to avoid the party and the inevitable attention fit with her character.



uncdrew said:


> I'll guess that Wildfyre makes another appearance.
> 
> Cersei loves the stuff. I'm sure she had Q and others working hard finding or making more.


I wonder if Cersei is trying to set it up so that if Daenerys destroys the Red Keep, the fire from that would ignite wildfire under the city, killing many of the citizens. This would spark outrage amongst the population, and could push Jon to the side of reluctantly trying to take the throne from Daenerys in order to unite the kingdoms.

Or maybe the wildfire kills everyone, and King's Landing is in ruins. Sansa gets her wish for an independent North, but at the cost of having lost Jon and Arya.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> Jon is able to unite disparate groups of people because he does not care about having power for himself. That, ironically, gives him power because people see that, and are willing to put their faith in him. As Varys said, "Power resides where men believe it resides."


Jon is good at getting power and authority (willing or not), but he's not very good at wielding it.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Uncle Benjen knew the secret.

Change my mind.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

MacThor said:


> Uncle Benjen knew the secret.
> 
> Change my mind.


I've wondered if the Maester of the Nights Watch (Who was a Targarean) didn't also know.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Was anybody we've seen on the show there to see it firsthand?


-smak-


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

smak said:


> Was anybody we've seen on the show there to see it firsthand?


I assume we're talking about the secret of Jon's parents?

The only person we know of who was at the Tower of Joy when Jon was born and is still alive is Howland Reed (Meera and Jojen's father). He was with Ned and helped kill the Kingsguard members who were guarding Lyanna.

There were also two young women in the room with Lyanna when Ned walked in (there may have been more people in the tower, but none were shown). We were never shown their fate.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There were witnesses to Jon's birth, but were there any witnesses to the wedding? Is there documentation that someone has? What are bastard Targarians called?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> There were witnesses to Jon's birth, but were there any witnesses to the wedding? Is there documentation that someone has? What are bastard Targarians called?


Wasn't that one of the books Sam took from the Citadel? The journal of the Maester who married Rhaegar and Lyanna?


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