# HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0



## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Not sure if it's appropriate to post here. But, nice to see some ATSC 3.0 hardware on the horizon. I'm a backer.

HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Cool


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## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

Congratulations on launching the Kickstarter, @jafa! I'm in to back one.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


I use mine with Plex. An old Duo and a newer Quattro. I also use the HD Homerun app in the FireTV for just watching Live TV without launching Plex.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


Seems like most people use Plex or Channels DVR. I've used both. Plex is a great all around media center. At the time I used Plex, I experienced lots of issues with the transcoder. But, they've recently made improvements to their DVR. If you're looking for just a DVR, it's hard to beat Channels DVR. It just works. The only downside is the subscription. Personally, I found it worth the cost.


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## JerryB01 (Feb 15, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


I use the HDHR DVR software to schedule and record programs and for watching live TV from my HDHR devices. If I'm watching a recorded program, I typically use the Plex app on my Roku or the Infuse app on my Apple TV. Data is automatically synced between Plex and Infuse apps so both know what programs I have recorded and the current status of those programs (watched vs unwatched, etc.).


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## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


 www.getchannels.com


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


FYI - MCE died with Windows XP (Media Center Edition). I believe you mean Windows Media Center or WMC which has been included in Windows Vista, Windows 7, and was an add-on for Windows 8/8.1. It is still alive and well even though no longer supported by Microsoft. I'm still using it with Windows 7 and epg123 with a subscription to Schedules Direct. I cut the cord with Microsoft a couple of years ago and couldn't be happier. Still works great for me. I haven't used a Tivo to record anything since I retired my old series 3 models years ago.

Many people have successfully installed WMC in Windows 10 so maybe I'll give that a shot and see how that goes.

I am also a backer of the HDHR Quatro 4k tuner. I'm currently using a SD HDHR Prime for FIOS and a HDHR Quatro for OTA. I have a 2nd HTPC with Windows 10 that I will probably have to use with the Quatro 4k since Windows 7 doesn't have the means to support 4k. I hate the SD DVR app with a passion, but it looks like I may have to bite the bullet and use it for 4k. I paid for the DVR Kickstarter campaign along with five years of guide data so maybe I'll finally get my money's worth.



spiderpumpkin said:


> www.getchannels.com


I'm guessing it doesn't work with DRM channels. To the best of my knowledge, only WMC, Tivo, and your provider's DVR will be able to record any copy protected channels.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - MCE died with Windows XP (Media Center Edition). I believe you mean Windows Media Center or WMC which has been included in Windows Vista, Windows 7, and was an add-on for Windows 8/8.1. It is still alive and well even *though no longer supported by Microsoft*. I'm still using it with Windows 7 and epg123 with a subscription to Schedules Direct. I cut the cord with Microsoft a couple of years ago and couldn't be happier. Still works great for me. I haven't used a Tivo to record anything since I retired my old series 3 models years ago.


I think this is a deal breaker for most people. Having to jump through hoops to install and get set up with a 3rd party data supplier is more effort than most people want to put in.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> I think this is a deal breaker for most people. Having to jump through hoops to install and get set up with a 3rd party data supplier is more effort than most people want to put in.


It's actually quite simple to set up and use. First you set up an account with Schedules Direct and specify the type of guide data you require (i.e., cable, OTA, and possibly satellite) by specifying the market(s) where you're located and the name of your provider. The cost is only $25 per year for up to five TVs, IIRC. Download and install epg123 from EPG123 - The alternate TV program guide provider for WMC using the instructions on the website or download the pdf instructions from here http://epg123.garyan2.net/downloads/epg123_Guide.pdf. Rerun the TV signal setup in WMC but don't accept the terms for guide data. It will tell you that you will either need to rerun guided setup again or obtain guide data from another source. Finish the TV signal setup and then run epg123 to download and generate the guide data and automatically import it into WMC. Make sure you checked the box to automatically import the data when you use epg123 for the first time. After it imports the data it will close automatically. The guide should now be populated with the data for the length of time you specify. You can get it for up to 30 days, but in reality the 1st 14 days only contain any usable data. The rest of the days beyond that are mostly placeholders with no guide info.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


Silicon Dust makes great tuners, but I've yet to find a post here by someone who likes that DVR's UI. I use Channels DVR with two HDHR tuners, one Prime 3 for cable and one Quatro for OTA, and I'm in the Kickstarter for a Quatro 4K.

We're almost completely off TiVo and onto Channels now, with our Roamio Pro and Minis as backup. TiVo is still better for live TV in the buffer because of the more granular FF/Rew.



mr.unnatural said:


> I'm guessing it doesn't work with DRM channels. To the best of my knowledge, only WMC, Tivo, and your provider's DVR will be able to record any copy protected channels.


Correct, Channels just works with what your HDHR hands it. A Prime 3 works fine for me because our local Xfinity service doesn't protect any tier except the HBO-type premium channels, which we don't want. I'll be curious to see what the Prime 6 can do though, if it ever comes out.

I would go all OTA and streaming here if I could, but can't find anything better than subscribing to cable for our daily dose of news and talk.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

The Kickstarter is now at over $275K and almost 1300 backers. I'm in for one unit.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

I only use HDHR to watch live tv in a window on my pc. It works nice with VLC for a minimum, clean look. I tried the DVR for a year and it was awful.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Correct, Channels just works with what your HDHR hands it. A Prime 3 works fine for me because our local Xfinity service doesn't protect any tier except the HBO-type premium channels, which we don't want. I'll be curious to see what the Prime 6 can do though, if it ever comes out.
> 
> I would go all OTA and streaming here if I could, but can't find anything better than subscribing to cable for our daily dose of news and talk.


I'm on FIOS and all of the Fox network channels (Fox News, Fox Sports, Fx, etc.) as well as HBO are all DRM. The wife likes Fox News (personally, I would have no problem with it being blocked from my lineup) and I record from Fx so it would impact us both. The biggest issue I would have would be trying to get the wife to get used to a new UI. She does not work well with change or technology in general. She's comfortable using WMC so if it ain't broke I'm not going to fix it.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm on FIOS and all of the Fox network channels (Fox News, Fox Sports, Fx, etc.) as well as HBO are all DRM. The wife likes Fox News (personally, I would have no problem with it being blocked from my lineup) and I record from Fx so it would impact us both. The biggest issue I would have would be trying to get the wife to get used to a new UI. She does not work well with change or technology in general. She's comfortable using WMC so if it ain't broke I'm not going to fix it.


Channels DVR is deep into their beta offering of TV Everywhere (TVE) internet streaming access. I don't know what your FIOS credentials would let you receive that way, but I got almost everything via my Xfinity login when I tried that feature before getting a Prime 3. The TVE feature can also get those channels via Fubo or YouTube TV or another alternative service. But even in beta, TVE is easier than the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF), and I feel your pain.


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm guessing it doesn't work with DRM channels. To the best of my knowledge, only WMC, Tivo, and your provider's DVR will be able to record any copy protected channels.


Correct. However Channels does let you use your TV Everywhere (TVE) login/password to record the streams from a good chunk of the cable channels. I haven't tried it, but I understand it works but not always.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Ka-ching! Over $300,000, over 1,400 backers.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Being only two (ATSC 3.0) tuners and no current plans for such in my market it's a non event. The little I looked into it appears they might stuff enough channels into the available bandwidth the image may come out looking worse than today's... which isn't even passable.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> It's actually quite simple to set up and use. First you set up an account with Schedules Direct and specify the type of guide data you require (i.e., cable, OTA, and possibly satellite) by specifying the market(s) where you're located and the name of your provider. The cost is only $25 per year for up to five TVs, IIRC. Download and install epg123 from EPG123 - The alternate TV program guide provider for WMC using the instructions on the website or download the pdf instructions from here http://epg123.garyan2.net/downloads/epg123_Guide.pdf. Rerun the TV signal setup in WMC but don't accept the terms for guide data. It will tell you that you will either need to rerun guided setup again or obtain guide data from another source. Finish the TV signal setup and then run epg123 to download and generate the guide data and automatically import it into WMC. Make sure you checked the box to automatically import the data when you use epg123 for the first time. After it imports the data it will close automatically. The guide should now be populated with the data for the length of time you specify. You can get it for up to 30 days, but in reality the 1st 14 days only contain any usable data. The rest of the days beyond that are mostly placeholders with no guide info.


While this isn't that complicated. Channels - Channels Plus is an even easier solution. If you just need a DVR. Plex is actually pretty easy too.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> So how do people use HDHomeRun these days now that MCE is dead? Is everyone just using the Silicone Dust DVR?


I use an HDHomeRun Prime with MythTV. A new version of MythTV was just released.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tivolocity said:


> While this isn't that complicated. Channels - Channels Plus is an even easier solution. If you just need a DVR. Plex is actually pretty easy too.


I've been looking into Channels Plus, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation for installing it and setting it up, at least not that I've been able to locate yet. I tried to set it up on one of my Nvidia Shields yesterday and could never get past the initial installation. I'm not sure where I should be installing the Server app. I have an unRAID server but I'm not sure if there's an app or a docker available to use it with Channels Plus. I've already got the Plex server up and running in unRAID. Is there a good tutorial or set of instructions for setting up Channels Plus on an Android device?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've been looking into Channels Plus, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation for installing it and setting it up, at least not that I've been able to locate yet. I tried to set it up on one of my Nvidia Shields yesterday and could never get past the initial installation. I'm not sure where I should be installing the Server app. I have an unRAID server but I'm not sure if there's an app or a docker available to use it with Channels Plus. I've already got the Plex server up and running in unRAID. Is there a good tutorial or set of instructions for setting up Channels Plus on an Android device?


To use the Shield as a server, install Channels from Google Play: getchannels.com...#nvidiashield

To use the unRaid as a server, see these installation instructions: getchannels.com...#unraid

For more help, see the very active Channels Community: community.getchannels...

A Shield would be fun as a client (which requires a different app), but has some limitations as a server; an unRaid server may be a better choice, but I'm no expert on either of those. The whole experience has been plug-and-play for me - with a Synology NAS as a server and Fire TV, Android, and web clients - except when I was experimenting with the TVE support which as I said is still in beta but that's improving practically every day.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

Looks promising... But reading the details.. One of the so called features is the ability for the TV folks to monitor what you watch and configure the ads to match. Just like your phone. If you don't mind your phone doing this... not an issue for the TV to start doing the same. No internet connection needed for this to work..

https://nocable.org/news/privacy-concerns-a-dark-shadow-over-the-atsc-3-0-tv-standard


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

tommiet said:


> Looks promising... But reading the details.. One of the so called features is the ability for the TV folks to monitor what you watch and configure the ads to match. Just like your phone. If you don't mind your phone doing this... not an issue for the TV to start doing the same. No internet connection needed for this to work..
> 
> https://nocable.org/news/privacy-concerns-a-dark-shadow-over-the-atsc-3-0-tv-standard


Agreed, that's creepy. No industry standards, best practices, or government regulations yet.


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## heyted (Mar 4, 2012)

It looks like MythTV will support this new HDHomeRun when it is available. Support for HEVC is something that will need to be worked on. There has not been a need for MythTV to support HEVC with ATSC, but there are plans for MythTV to support this as required for ATSC3 4K content. ATSC3 supports DRM, but hopefully most content providers will choose to not use it.

It looks like this new HDHomeRun device will be another good reason for more people to finally cut the cable cord. For those people with an HDHomeRun along with an Nvidia Shield or Fire TV Stick and want to consider MythTV, information about getting these devices setup with MythTV can be found here. You can have a computer run the MythTV software that interacts with the HDHomeRun, and all other devices connected to the TVs can be a Shield or Fire TV Stick. Hopefully, full 4K content support will be added in the not-to-distant future for the Shield and Fire TV Stick with MythTV.

With MythTV, Schedules Direct is the most popular choice for guide data. With this option, you get about two weeks worth of guide data per download for $25 per year or $6 for two months. One of the things I really like about HDHomeRun devices is that when you buy one, you get free lifetime live TV guide data at no extra charge. The free version is limited to about four hours worth of guide data that is updated every two or three hours while live TV is being watched. I use this free guide data with my HDHomeRun Prime and MythTV. For the shows that I want to record, I just follow them on tvmaze.com using my free TVmaze account to have MythTV automatically record them. A TVmaze account is of course optional and not the most popular choice for guide data and recording with MythTV.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tommiet said:


> Looks promising... But reading the details.. One of the so called features is the ability for the TV folks to monitor what you watch and configure the ads to match. Just like your phone. If you don't mind your phone doing this... not an issue for the TV to start doing the same. No internet connection needed for this to work..
> 
> https://nocable.org/news/privacy-concerns-a-dark-shadow-over-the-atsc-3-0-tv-standard


I don't have a major problem with tailoring ads that I might be interested in, except that I tend to ignore them all anyway. If you don't think Big Brother is watching everything we do then you're in for a shock. Having someone monitor my TV viewing habits is the least of my concern. They can't tell who is doing the actual viewing. They can only tell what shows are being watched or recorded by some anonymous individual. If it bothers you then you might consider using a VPN with your router to hide your IP address. I use one with my PC 24/7 and also have one installed on my phone. There's probably a way to install one on an Android device as well.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> To use the Shield as a server, install Channels from Google Play: getchannels.com...#nvidiashield
> 
> To use the unRaid as a server, see these installation instructions: getchannels.com...#unraid
> 
> ...


Thanks. I got your posts over at the Channels Android TV forum. I'm captain_video over there. That used to be my user name here ages ago but I changed it for reasons I won't get into.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Thanks. I got your posts over at the Channels Android TV forum. I'm captain_video over there. That used to be my user name here ages ago but I changed it for reasons I won't get into.


Figured that was you, but thanks for confirming. Glad you got it set up. Enjoy!


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't have a major problem with tailoring ads that I might be interested in, except that I tend to ignore them all anyway. If you don't think Big Brother is watching everything we do then you're in for a shock. Having someone monitor my TV viewing habits is the least of my concern. They can't tell who is doing the actual viewing. They can only tell what shows are being watched or recorded by some anonymous individual. If it bothers you then you might consider using a VPN with your router to hide your IP address. I use one with my PC 24/7 and also have one installed on my phone. There's probably a way to install one on an Android device as well.


Not an issue for me. Just providing information. I'm a recently Retired IT Security Engineer... Have a very good understanding of security and privacy. My home is probably more secure than most small businesses.

When I have a choice.. I select not to share info. I dumped FB and all social media about 3 years ago. But I don't loss sleep over someone knowing that I watched Picard last month... Don't tell anyone.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Agreed, that's creepy. No industry standards, best practices, or government regulations yet.


Agree... But I'm not worried. When I do move to ATSC 3.0, My hardware firewall (Netgear Prosafe) and/or my software firewall (Asus router) should block it. Or at the least, my PiHole system will.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Now over 1,500 backers, over $320,000 total.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

So what's the recommended NAS to use as a DVR with this, and will it work for my two (TE3) Roamio Tivos as well? (e.g. Tivo playing homerun recordings)


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

ncbill said:


> So what's the recommended NAS to use as a DVR with this, and will it work for my two (TE3) Roamio Tivos as well? (e.g. Tivo playing homerun recordings)


Just to be clear, this is a tuner box only. No DVR. There are DVRs that will work with it, but TiVo is not one of them.

The Silicon Dust folks produce their own DVR software as well as turnkey DVRs, but in this thread we've mostly been discussing Channels DVR. Also Myth, PLEX, and others.

If you're asking about the recommended NAS for Channels DVR, scroll down this page for a list of supported platforms: getchannels.com/dvr-server A common choice is the Synology 218+. I use the Synology 718+.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Just to be clear, this is a tuner box only. No DVR. There are DVRs that will work with it, but TiVo is not one of them.


They have a version called the Scribe which is a self-contained DVR with either 2 or 4 tuners for OTA. I assume they may offer this with the ATSC 3.0 tuners at some point, but for now they're only offering it as a separate tuner box.

I assume that you install the DVR software on a PC or other compatible device and just point to the Scribe as the storage location for any recordings.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> They have a version called the Scribe which is a self-contained DVR with either 2 or 4 tuners for OTA. I assume they may offer this with the ATSC 3.0 tuners at some point, but for now they're only offering it as a separate tuner box.
> 
> I assume that you install the DVR software on a PC or other compatible device and just point to the Scribe as the storage location for any recordings.


Yes, as I said in the rest of that post, they do offer their own DVRs. The Scribe is a full DVR. But they also offer the Servio which is storage only, to pair with one of their separate tuner boxes. Both will allow you to add your own network storage as well.

The previous Kickstarter was for DVR software that installs on third-party platforms, but as Silicon Dust is primarily in the hardware business I'm not surprised to find they are not pushing that now so their website may have confused you. They are still actively supporting it on their own support forum, and download links are available there, but I don't recommend it. Channels is better.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Nothing in the standard provides ways to track what you watch. It can only track what you tune. Hardly creepy.

I use YouMail for voice mail. When people call, if they're known to me by the phone number they call from they get greeted by their name. Creepy, too? I like it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The previous Kickstarter was for DVR software that installs on third-party platforms, but as Silicon Dust is primarily in the hardware business I'm not surprised to find they are not pushing that now so their website may have confused you. They are still actively supporting it on their own support forum, and download links are available there, but I don't recommend it. Channels is better.


I was part of the Kickstarter campaign for the DVR software. I even paid for five years of guide data that I have never used. I was hoping SD would step up and develop the software to work with DRM channels, which they never did. To be fair, they never promised that as part of the Kickstarter campaign or any subsequent added features, but I believe they do have it working for viewing live DRM channels. You just can't record anything that's flagged as copy protected. The DVR software was a major disappointment. The UI flat out sucks.

The only reason they came out with the DVR app was because Microsoft was getting close to ending support for Windows 7 and WMC and nobody knew if they would be getting any guide data after that happened. Fortunately, EPG123 came out and solved that issue. I switched to EPG123 to use with WMC and effectively cut off all ties with Microsoft to have an independent platform. The only reason I'm even looking at Channels DVR is so I can use it with the new HDHR ATSC 3.0 tuners.

I'm not new to DVRs or HTPCs. Been building my own PCs for over 25 years. I bought one of the 1st generation Tivos and learned how to hack it to add extra storage. I was a member of the TCF when it was still part of the AVS Forums. I've also modified ReplayTVs and Dish PVRs. Since then I have learned how to hack and modify every model of Tivo up to the Tivo HD. I've also had HD Tivos with DirecTV. I was a moderator for a Tivo hacking forum ages ago for a brief period of time. I started building HTPCs with Windows XP using BeyondTV, which is still one of my favorite PVR apps. I only switched to Windows 7 when I received an email announcing the Ceton cablecard tuner. I placed a pre-order for one within minutes after getting the email. Best $400 I ever spent. I've played around with other PVR apps but always ended up coming back to WMC. I phased out my Tivos completely when I retired my last two Series 3 models. I've been using WMC with my cablecard and ATSC tuners ever since and couldn't be happier.

Tivos are great appliances for anyone that just wants a box they can plug and play. I've always been more of a tweaker and DIY hands-on kind of person, which is why I'm still using HTPCs. If Channels DVR had the ability to record and watch DRM content I'd retire my HTPCs and use nothing but Nvidia Shields and my unRAID server (currently at 163TB of capacity and counting).


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I was part of the Kickstarter campaign for the DVR software. I even paid for five years of guide data that I have never used. I was hoping SD would step up and develop the software to work with DRM channels, which they never did. To be fair, they never promised that as part of the Kickstarter campaign or any subsequent added features, but I believe they do have it working for viewing live DRM channels. You just can't record anything that's flagged as copy protected. The DVR software was a major disappointment. The UI flat out sucks.
> 
> The only reason they came out with the DVR app was because Microsoft was getting close to ending support for Windows 7 and WMC and nobody knew if they would be getting any guide data after that happened. Fortunately, EPG123 came out and solved that issue. I switched to EPG123 to use with WMC and effectively cut off all ties with Microsoft to have an independent platform. The only reason I'm even looking at Channels DVR is so I can use it with the new HDHR ATSC 3.0 tuners.
> 
> ...


Ah. Sorry. I could tell from our interaction on the Channels forum that you have lots of experience, but I didn't recall that you'd actively suffered with the HDHR DVR software. That is indeed a very painful UI.

Looking back, I see you also warned us early on about what a bad idea TiVo PC / Nero Liquid TV would be. You sure were right, but I gave it the old college try. At least I got a fun Hauppauge Tuner out of it. My beta testing reports may have contributed to TiVo dropping the whole idea. I tried out other solutions like Beyond and 7MC too, but elected to stay with the most WAF/family friendly option at the time, and that was TiVo.

I too hope Channels DVR will be able to receive DRM content, but that will depend on Silicon Dust producing the Prime 6 with that capability. I have more patience than most, because as I mentioned my local provider doesn't protect anything but the highest tier.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Ah. Sorry. I could tell from our interaction on the Channels forum that you have lots of experience, but I didn't recall that you'd actively suffered with the HDHR DVR software. That is indeed a very painful UI.
> 
> Looking back, I see you also warned us early on about what a bad idea TiVo PC / Nero Liquid TV would be. You sure were right, but I gave it the old college try. At least I got a fun Hauppauge Tuner out of it. My beta testing reports may have contributed to TiVo dropping the whole idea. I tried out other solutions like Beyond and 7MC too, but elected to stay with the most WAF/family friendly option at the time, and that was TiVo.
> 
> I too hope Channels DVR will be able to receive DRM content, but that will depend on Silicon Dust producing the Prime 6 with that capability. I have more patience than most, because as I mentioned my local provider doesn't protect anything but the highest tier.


Wow! That's a blast from the past. I had totally forgotten about Tivo's attempt to bring their DVR capability to a PC. That was a failed attempt that has since been done much better by other apps like NextPVR, MythTV, SageTV, Channels DVR, and probably others.

The Prime 6 will be able to handle DRM since it uses a cablecard just like the current Prime. It's the DVR software that needs to be approved by CableLabs in order for it to allow recording of DRM content, not the hardware, and it's extremely expensive to get that done. Microsoft has the resources to get CableLabs certification whereas SiliconDust does not. I believe PlayReady is the software needed to allow recording or DRM content in WMC, but I'm not entirely sure. Chances are Channels DVR won't ever have that capability either unless someone hands them a ton of money to get it certified.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Just to be clear, this is a tuner box only. No DVR. There are DVRs that will work with it, but TiVo is not one of them.
> 
> The Silicon Dust folks produce their own DVR software as well as turnkey DVRs, but in this thread we've mostly been discussing Channels DVR. Also Myth, PLEX, and others.
> 
> If you're asking about the recommended NAS for Channels DVR, scroll down this page for a list of supported platforms: getchannels.com/dvr-server A common choice is the Synology 218+. I use the Synology 718+.


Thanks.

Can you use the same NAS as a Plex server at the same time to serve up shows to a Tivo?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

ncbill said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you use the same NAS as a Plex server at the same time to serve up shows to a Tivo?


I don't know of any incompatibilities, though with my luck I'd try the one platform where they don't get along. But even though they'd probably work just fine together on my Synology, I wouldn't do it because Plex can be demanding sometimes. Generally I run separate little servers for each music, DVR, camera, etc. solution. But if you do try this, then definitely go for a more powerful NAS in the lineup, so for example a 718+ or greater rather than the 218+.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Backed.

Tempted by the dev version but just not sure it's worth another hundred.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Now over $350,000 from almost 1,650 backers.

HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

$400,268 from 1869 backers. 12 days to go. HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Sadly, it seems like many/most of the people who bought the Stream 4k are disappointed with at least some aspect of the device. On top of that, if you're not interested in Sling, all the TiVo app gets you is a streaming service aggregator, similar to the Apple TV app. Hopefully, there we be software updates supporting other linear TV services. Or, it eventually connects to the existing line of TiVo DVRs. But, I'm not sure how long I want to wait. The rumor mill indicates an updated Apple TV device will be available soon (probably WWDC in June). If it includes a remote that doesn't suck, combined with this new HDHomeRun I'm backing, I might be transitioning away from TiVo to Channels DVR or Plex over the summer.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

I assume that until there is an Extend version, we will have to transcode it ourselves?


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

smark said:


> I assume that until there is an Extend version, we will have to transcode it ourselves?


That's a good question. In the long term, ATSC 3.0 broadcasts use the HVEC codec which shouldn't require any transcoding for Apple TV devices. In the short term, for ATSC 1.0 broadcasts, transcoding will be required for Apple TV devices. I've used an older non-extend HDHomeRun with Channels DVR (running on a Mac Mini) to an Apple TV and didn't have any problems with transcoding. But, I did have a lot of transcoding issues with Plex. This was about 3 years ago, and I know Plex has made updates to their DVR since then.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

tivolocity said:


> That's a good question. In the long term, ATSC 3.0 broadcasts use the HVEC codec which shouldn't require any transcoding for Apple TV devices. In the short term, for ATSC 1.0 broadcasts, transcoding will be required for Apple TV devices. I've used an older non-extend HDHomeRun with Channels DVR (running on a Mac Mini) to an Apple TV and didn't have any problems with transcoding. But, I did have a lot of transcoding issues with Plex. This was about 3 years ago, and I know Plex has made updates to their DVR since then.


Yeah, I have the Extend and have it do the transcoding just to offload from the server. I actually have Channels DVR record it, Handbrake monitor the folder, transcode and then drop it into a folder that SOnarr monitors (need to figure out an automated way to notify it as I have to do a manual import) and then Plex picks it up.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

smark said:


> Yeah, I have the Extend and have it do the transcoding just to offload from the server. I actually have Channels DVR record it, Handbrake monitor the folder, transcode and then drop it into a folder that SOnarr monitors (need to figure out an automated way to notify it as I have to do a manual import) and then Plex picks it up.


Yeah, I'm far from a transcoding expert. It almost seems like the Channels DVR wasn't doing any transcoding. Or, it's being done in a dramatically more efficient way than Plex. When I would play recorded content, or while content was being recorded, my Mac Mini would show fairly normal CPU activity, unlike Plex. So, I don't know if it's possible the Channels app was doing the heavy lifting, and transcoding the stream on the Apple TV?


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

tivolocity said:


> Yeah, I'm far from a transcoding expert. It almost seems like the Channels DVR wasn't doing any transcoding. Or, it's being done in a dramatically more efficient way than Plex. When I would play recorded content, or while content was being recorded, my Mac Mini would show fairly normal CPU activity, unlike Plex. So, I don't know if it's possible the Channels app was doing the heavy lifting, and transcoding the stream on the Apple TV?


I believe the Mac Mini may have Intel QuickSync so could have been using that to help with the transcoding.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

tivolocity said:


> Yeah, I'm far from a transcoding expert. It almost seems like the Channels DVR wasn't doing any transcoding. Or, it's being done in a dramatically more efficient way than Plex. When I would play recorded content, or while content was being recorded, my Mac Mini would show fairly normal CPU activity, unlike Plex. So, I don't know if it's possible the Channels app was doing the heavy lifting, and transcoding the stream on the Apple TV?


Channels DVR relies on the client apps to do transcoding, not the server. In the client app settings is an option for software or hardware transcoding. Plex takes a very different approach.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Channels DVR relies on the client apps to do transcoding, not the server. In the client app settings is an option for software or hardware transcoding. Plex takes a very different approach.


Thanks for clarifying that. At least for my setup, having the client app transcode works much better.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Now at over 2,000 backers and more than $442K, with 6 days to go.

HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Update 2: Apple TV Stretch Goal · HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

They've passed $501K, with 2336 backers. 40 hours to go!

Also, they've received hardware sign-off samples.


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## JxxAxxY (Oct 19, 2018)

Pokemon you are way to excited about this ;-) I did pledge about a month ago on this ;-)


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> They've passed $501K, with 2336 backers. 40 hours to go!
> 
> Also, they've received hardware sign-off samples.


Can someone who backed it also tell them their hardware sample should have the words "MAC Address" fixed. It's currently "Mac Address" -- MAC should be all caps. As long as they're fixing the product name on the label, may as well fix that.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

As a backer, I'm excited about the hardware but realistically it could be another couple of years before there's ATSC 3.0 broadcasting in my local market...the current situation has cratered revenue for my local stations not to mention the expenses associated with the repack (e.g. new transmission antennas)


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

What gets me is that they reached their goal for the ATSC 3.0 tuner and greatly surpassed it. They're still soliciting people to support the Kickstarter campaign so they can come up with an app for Apple TV. It seems to me that they've already got more than enough to cover that with the surplus from the tuner campaign.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> They're still soliciting people to support the Kickstarter campaign so they can come up with an app for Apple TV.


"Stretch goals" are a normal thing in Kickstarters.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

I'd love to back this, but I have a bad history with backing Kickstarter projects that never deliver. Best of luck, see you in the retail store!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> "Stretch goals" are a normal thing in Kickstarters.


I'm aware of that. My point is that they have far exceeded the original goal so they probably already have more than enough to fund any such stretch goals.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm aware of that. My point is that they have far exceeded the original goal so they probably already have more than enough to fund any such stretch goals.


Except they owe the original contributors all of the perks that were promised to them for their contributions and those things cost money too, so it isn't like they have a ton of profit to put into those extra items that they are running the stretch goals for. If they were charging a lot more and not offering early-bird discounts and/or weren't having to work hard to deliver those perks to their contributors they might have some extra $$ to put into those other things (without needing to raise more money). The unfortunate answer is that they gotta give people what they "paid for" and that's the hardware. If they get enough stretch contributors to contribute for the additional goals, then they have the money that they would need to handle those costs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

terpfan1980 said:


> Except they owe the original contributors all of the perks that were promised to them for their contributions and those things cost money too, so it isn't like they have a ton of profit to put into those extra items that they are running the stretch goals for. If they were charging a lot more and not offering early-bird discounts and/or weren't having to work hard to deliver those perks to their contributors they might have some extra $$ to put into those other things (without needing to raise more money). The unfortunate answer is that they gotta give people what they "paid for" and that's the hardware. If they get enough stretch contributors to contribute for the additional goals, then they have the money that they would need to handle those costs.


What perks are you referring to? AFAIK, the only thing the Kickstarter campaign was for was to generate some start up capital to begin production on a product they had already developed. There are no other "perks" that I am aware of that were tied to this Kickstarter fund. The original contributors, of which I am one, were only promised the hardware when it was put into production (FYI - the original date listed in the Kickstarter for delivering the first units was supposed to be June, IIRC. It now says they will ship in August. This is typical of SD. They promise delivery dates that they can't meet). IIRC, the original goal was to reach $50k. They met that in a matter of hours and far exceeded that. What happens to the extra money over and above the $50k? They've raked in over 11 times that amount. The contributors are all getting the hardware at retail cost, which means SD is making a considerable profit from the Kickstarter campaign with all of the units they pre-sold. They could easily use those profits to fund the extra stretch goals.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> What perks are you referring to? AFAIK, the only thing the Kickstarter campaign was for was to generate some start up capital to begin production on a product they had already developed. There are no other "perks" that I am aware of that were tied to this Kickstarter fund. The original contributors, of which I am one, were only promised the hardware when it was put into production (FYI - the original date listed in the Kickstarter for delivering the first units was supposed to be June, IIRC. It now says they will ship in August. This is typical of SD. They promise delivery dates that they can't meet). IIRC, the original goal was to reach $50k. They met that in a matter of hours and far exceeded that. What happens to the extra money over and above the $50k? They've raked in over 11 times that amount. The contributors are all getting the hardware at retail cost, which means SD is making a considerable profit from the Kickstarter campaign with all of the units they pre-sold. They could easily use those profits to fund the extra stretch goals.


Apparently you really don't understand Kickstarter.

What perk? It depended on Pledge level, but here's a sample, direct from the page:


Kickstarter said:


> Pledge level: *$199 or more*
> ATSC 3.0 hardware (HDHR5-4K)
> Get ATSC 3.0 with the HDHomeRun HDHR5-4K. Works with ATSC 1.0 stations and new ATSC 3.0 stations. Includes the 2020 limited edition HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0 Kickstarter commemorative coin and regular software/firmware updates.


Underlined emphasis added.

If you read that you'll see that the people that were paying $200 ($199 or more) were paying to get HDHR5-4K, plus they were going to get the 2020 limited edition commemorative coin.

What do you think pays for those items? Uh, most of the $200 that they were paying is what pays for those things -- plus the cost of research and development that was needed, the cost of manufacturing, the cost of distributing, shipping, etc.

So again, where do you and others that don't understand this think they have all of the extra money to pay for developing things that weren't part of the original perks that were promised?


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> FYI - the original date listed in the Kickstarter for delivering the first units was supposed to be June, IIRC. It now says they will ship in August.


No. Look -- under "All gone!", at the $199 reward level, it says estimated delivery in July. Those (and only those) are the first units (1200 of them). If you _now_ pledge $199, you get the August date (3000 total, with ~1000 still available). I myself am in this second group, and that date hasn't shifted (and I don't think the first did either, but I didn't pay as much attention to that since it was already sold out). This, again, is totally normal and standard Kickstarter practice.


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## JerryB01 (Feb 15, 2015)

wmcbrine said:


> No. Look -- under "All gone!", at the $199 reward level, it says estimated delivery in July. Those (and only those) are the first units (1200 of them). If you _now_ pledge $199, you get the August date (3000 total, with ~1000 still available). I myself am in this second group, and that date hasn't shifted (and I don't think the first did either, but I didn't pay as much attention to that since it was already sold out).


Correct. I'm in the first group. The date for shipment of those units was July from the very beginning and hasn't shifted.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> the original date listed in the Kickstarter for delivering the first units was supposed to be June, IIRC. It now says they will ship in August.


As others have noted, there are two production runs planned. I'm in the first group: June production, July shipment. That batch sold out within the first 24 hours, after which in his first update post Nick promised another production run in July to ship in August.

Every Kickstarter and indeed every business venture is a gamble, but this product is a reliable bet. I think SD has gotten unfairly tarred with blame for issues that are outside of their control, especially when it comes to the very different Prime 6 situation. I posted a comparison of these two projects yesterday.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Only about one hour left until the Kickstarter closes.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Aaand it's done: 2,782 backers, $601,200.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Every Kickstarter and indeed every business venture is a gamble, but this product is a reliable bet. I think SD has gotten unfairly tarred with blame for issues that are outside of their control, especially when it comes to the very different Prime 6 situation.


Risk is low when it comes to shipping. Risk is high when it comes the ATSC 3.0 experience. Finding some content, presenting that content, doing stuff with that content. ATSC 3.0 benefits content owners and broadcasters more than consumers imo, with tracking, enhanced advertising, and DRM. I'm definitely not interested in being bleeding edge here and will continue to use my HDHR ATSC 1.0 and Prime 3 devices.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

davezatz said:


> Risk is low when it comes to shipping. Risk is high when it comes the ATSC 3.0 experience. Finding some content, presenting that content, doing stuff with that content. ATSC 3.0 benefits content owners and broadcasters more than consumers imo, with tracking, enhanced advertising, and DRM. I'm definitely not interested in being bleeding edge here and will continue to use my HDHR ATSC 1.0 and Prime 3 devices.


Consumer privacy is definitely an issue. No voluntary industry standards or mandatory FCC rules under discussion as far as I know.


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

davezatz said:


> Risk is low when it comes to shipping. Risk is high when it comes the ATSC 3.0 experience. Finding some content, presenting that content, doing stuff with that content. ATSC 3.0 benefits content owners and broadcasters more than consumers imo, with tracking, enhanced advertising, and DRM. I'm definitely not interested in being bleeding edge here and will continue to use my HDHR ATSC 1.0 and Prime 3 devices.


Dumb question, but how does a broadcaster do tracking on an ATSC 3.0 signal if the signal is just being transmitted? Does it rely on whatever device has the ATSC 3.0 tuner to be connected to the internet to feed that information back to the broadcaster?

If so, couldn't a user just choose to not connect their ATSC 3.0 equipped Smart TV to the WiFi network?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

JLV03 said:


> Dumb question, but how does a broadcaster do tracking on an ATSC 3.0 signal if the signal is just being transmitted? Does it rely on whatever device has the ATSC 3.0 tuner to be connected to the internet to feed that information back to the broadcaster?
> 
> If so, couldn't a user just choose to not connect their ATSC 3.0 equipped Smart TV to the WiFi network?


Yes, they get the information back via the internet. So technically you could disconnect it from the network, but at minimum you'd then get no firmware updates, and if it's a smart TV you'd also get no streaming or schedules. If they manage to implement video on demand services, that would likely also require an internet connection for authentication.

Ideally these products would include customizable privacy settings, and at best even arrive opted-out by default, but that's going to require outside pressure.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> As others have noted, there are two production runs planned. I'm in the first group: June production, July shipment. That batch sold out within the first 24 hours, after which in his first update post Nick promised another production run in July to ship in August.
> 
> Every Kickstarter and indeed every business venture is a gamble, but this product is a reliable bet. I think SD has gotten unfairly tarred with blame for issues that are outside of their control, especially when it comes to the very different Prime 6 situation. I posted a comparison of these two projects yesterday.


I'm also part of the first group so that means I should get mine in July. I haven't visited the SD forum in a while so I never saw the info posted. The Prime 6 has been a boondoggle from the very beginning. It was first promised several years ago and they still haven't sorted out their issues with it. I'd definitely think about getting one if it ever becomes a reality.

The last Kickstarter campaign that they ran for the DVR app turned out to be a total disaster, IMHO. The app is a joke and the UI is an absolute mess. It works, but nothing about it is intuitive. I paid for five years worth of guide data that I will never use. What a major disappointment.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

terpfan1980 said:


> Apparently you really don't understand Kickstarter.
> 
> What perk? It depended on Pledge level, but here's a sample, direct from the page:
> Underlined emphasis added.
> ...


I know what the various pledge levels are. You're basically just putting in a pre-order for hardware that has already been developed so how are we paying for R&D? The $199 pledge is for a unit that is going to retail for exactly that amount. The only other pledge levels get you a commemorative coin, a developer unit, or a pack of ten units for commercial use. It's not like we're getting any special perks other than being the first on your block to get a new tuner that will do absolutely nothing more than the existing Quatro until your local stations start transmitting in ATSC 3.0. Many stations are still going through the repack of switching transmit frequencies which has been further delayed due to the coronavirus lockdown.

R&D comes out of the profits they receive from selling other products, which is clearly where it came from in this case. You don't ask for funding to produce a product without a working prototype which means they have already gone through R&D. The Kickstarter is just being used to fund production costs. Instead of funding the Kickstarter campaign I could have just as easily waited for the units to be offered on Amazon or other outlets. It was going to be released regardless of how the Kickstarter campaign went. The units are just going to be released sooner because they now have the capital to produce them in large quantities. There are no distribution costs since they're coming direct from the manufacturer and not from a retailer such as Amazon. Shipping costs are factored into the cost of the unit. Most of the $200 is pure profit for SD, which they will undoubtedly use to fund R&D for other projects down the road.

Actual manufacturing costs for one of these units is probably less than $50. There is very little human involvement with assembly of electronics anymore. Most, if not all, of the components are surface mounted on a substrate and sent through a solder bath. All that's needed is to program the devices used to mount the various components on the board. Final assembly of the case may require a human, but that's about it. Pretty much everything is done by robotics these days.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

davezatz said:


> Risk is low when it comes to shipping. Risk is high when it comes the ATSC 3.0 experience. Finding some content, presenting that content, doing stuff with that content. ATSC 3.0 benefits content owners and broadcasters more than consumers imo, with tracking, enhanced advertising, and DRM. I'm definitely not interested in being bleeding edge here and will continue to use my HDHR ATSC 1.0 and Prime 3 devices.


I agree -- in spades.

SD+Plex=Overpromise+Underdeliver. I have had SD products in my home forever -- including two of the dual tuner Simple TV DVRs -- SD put that company out of business. I have a Plex Pass. SD and Plex OTA handling is unpolished and, frankly, overpriced. The idea that they will deliver a good ATSC 3.0 experience is wishful thinking.

ATSC 3.0 is about selling broadcast television and harvesting user data. 720p looks fine to me. I do not need interactive TV. (No one does.) The FCC screwed us so completely to give bandwidth to the palm greasers (cell phone companies). The repack has been a disaster and FCC is fine with that.

If I am wrong, I will buy the discounted parts once ATSC 3.0 becomes a commodity (at least five years away).


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## jbragg1989 (May 24, 2020)

https://zatznotfunny.com/2019-04/tivo-atsc-3/
(I know this proof of concept demonstration is over a year old)
2:30
"...we would really just be using the outboard ATSC 3.0 tuner with a processing engine so if we were to productize this we would take the technology that's in the tuner and a little bit of processing power and turn it into basically a network tuner that would then be able to be used with a Bolt or a Mini Vox..."

Somewhat off topic, but what do you all think about the possibility of TiVo making a networked tuner similar to this HDHomeRun? As ATSC 3.0 begins to launch in earnest in the latter half of this year I think it makes sense for them as it doesn't require them to develop a whole new set top box. There are a large number of Bolts in the wild. I just bought a 1TB Bolt OTA with lifetime service for $250 to supplement my 500GB Roamio OTA. As someone who has followed ATSC 3.0 very closely, I know I would jump at the chance for a TiVo networked ATSC 3.0 tuner add-on device with 2 tuners. I'd pay $200 to be an early adopter. That'd certainly be more attractive that the $250 being asked for the single tuner, non-dvr compatible Zapperbox...

I think one thing that would need to be done at the ATSC 3.0 network tuner is the decode of Dolby AC-4 and conversion into a format that current devices can actually decode. I reached out to Silicon Dust via their Kickstarter to see how their device would handle AC-4 prior to network distribution and didn't hear back.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jbragg1989 said:


> https://zatznotfunny.com/2019-04/tivo-atsc-3/
> (I know this proof of concept demonstration is over a year old)
> 2:30
> "...we would really just be using the outboard ATSC 3.0 tuner with a processing engine so if we were to productize this we would take the technology that's in the tuner and a little bit of processing power and turn it into basically a network tuner that would then be able to be used with a Bolt or a Mini Vox..."
> ...


I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. That project came about under the previous ownership. Since the merger with Xperi they've been all about getting into the streaming space with the Stream 4K, and have mostly dropped or de-prioritized other projects like DVR client apps, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is endangered or entirely cancelled too.

It remains to be seen if they'll circle back and recommit to the smaller and less sexy OTA space, or even the DVR biz in general. Even if they do, ATSC 3.0 is still a bit in the future and unproven, and TiVo has not gotten out in front of opportunities in a very long while. I suspect the managers that were running this ATSC 3.0 experiment aren't even there anymore. TiVo_Ted certainly isn't.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Kickstarter supporters have received an update:

----------

_It has been a busy month.

Manufacturing started as planned but we found a problem during the testing of the first 1000 units. The problem is understood and we have sample units arriving next week for verification/sign-off.

For delivery this means July deliverables will be August. August deliverables will be later than planned but still be August.

The good news - Las Vegas, Nashville, Pittsburgh, and Salt Lake City have started test broadcasts. We are following developments closely.

Nick - Silicondust_


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## JxxAxxY (Oct 19, 2018)

Kinda stinks but better then getting bad units.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Just got an email saying the units are being loaded into a shipping container at the factory, and the ship ought to arrive in the US by the third week of September. Not sure what it will take to get them shipped out to customers after that, but it's nice to see progress.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Just got another update: the factory didn't get it on the originally scheduled ship, but the container will start its journey on September 2nd and is still likely to arrive in the Port of Los Angeles in late September. I appreciate the level of detail he's providing.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Just got another update: the factory didn't get it on the originally scheduled ship, but the container will start its journey on September 2nd and is still likely to arrive in the Port of Los Angeles in late September. I appreciate the level of detail he's providing.


RESPECT: if he did not blame COVID19


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> RESPECT: if he did not blame COVID19


LOL. He didn't even mention it, imagine that.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

Looking forward to getting it...I have an outdoor amplified antenna that can receive (out-of-market) broadcasts
from the largest market in my state, which will likely be the first with regular (not just low-power tests) ATSC 3.0 broadcasts.

Now to convince the spouse I need to upgrade my 1080p HDTV to a 4K model...


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

ncbill said:


> Now to convince the spouse I need to upgrade my 1080p HDTV to a 4K model...


I highly recommend the TCL Roku televisions. They are the best televisions for cord cutters.

The Roku settings include one that remembers the last tuned device. If you have a TiVo on HDMI, a coax from an antenna, and a video game attached, it will remember what connection you used last and start up with that connection active. Just hit the home button to get the Roku tiles interface, but it's nice for some not to have to navigate to an antenna or TiVo.

When attached to a network, the TCL sets have an 'enhanced guide', but when not attached to a network, these televisions build a program guide using date in the broadcast television signal. If you are like my in-laws, who have no internet, or my sister, whose camp barely has cell service, this PSIP guide is very important.

If you plug a 16GB USB drive into the usb port on these televisions, the TV will set up a two hour buffer so you can pause, rewind, and fast forward through a program. When we quit Comcast, I did not think we needed a DVR. We had one and it contained only unwatched episodes of Who Wants to be a Millionaire and Bonnie Hunt. It took a week to understand all the reasons we needed a DVR -- pausing a show for dinner, a phone call, or a bathroom break, skipping through commercials, and rewinding all those wardrobe malfunctions.

One of these televisions failed on me. After 15 minutes on the phone, they sent a guy to my home to repair the set. He was professional and courteous and repaired my set within 30 minutes.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

The Channels DVR guys have an early unit, and made some test recordings:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298343475730157568


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

wizwor said:


> The Roku settings include one that remembers the last tuned device. If you have a TiVo on HDMI, a coax from an antenna, and a video game attached, it will remember what connection you used last and start up with that connection active.


Isn't that something almost all television sets do? I have a 12 year old Philips in the basement that starts up on HDMI1 if that was the last input used.

Or are the new smart TVs going down the path of starting on a "Home" screen?


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

JLV03 said:


> Isn't that something almost all television sets do? I have a 12 year old Philips in the basement that starts up on HDMI1 if that was the last input used.
> 
> Or are the new smart TVs going down the path of starting on a "Home" screen?


No idea. The default setting for these sets is to power on to the Roku tiled UI.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

All of my Sony and LG's start up on the last input used. If using a CEC device it starts up on the last input and then switches to the input of the device that triggered the start up.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

My Insignia Fire TV starts on live TV (if that was the last input) and my Recast DVR and guide. Its OTA DVR much more tightly integrated than anything on Roku. I never have to switch inputs for OTA, DVR or streaming, only for blu-ray.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

wizwor said:


> I highly recommend the TCL Roku televisions. They are the best televisions for cord cutters.
> 
> The Roku settings include one that remembers the last tuned device. If you have a TiVo on HDMI, a coax from an antenna, and a video game attached, it will remember what connection you used last and start up with that connection active. Just hit the home button to get the Roku tiles interface, but it's nice for some not to have to navigate to an antenna or TiVo.
> 
> ...


yeah, I'm looking at the new (2020) 6-series.

does one still have to play "panel roulette" (IIRC, banding issues) or has quality control improved?

is 16GB the limit for the USB stick?

has over-the-air guide info improved? it used to be for only 2-3 days and was often wildly inaccurate.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

ncbill said:


> does one still have to play "panel roulette" (IIRC, banding issues) or has quality control improved?


I have never experienced this. I have two of the 4-series 55" sets in my house and one more at my in-laws and all look great to me.


ncbill said:


> is 16GB the limit for the USB stick?


You can use a bigger thumb drive, but the buffer will get no larger than the two hours.


ncbill said:


> has over-the-air guide info improved? it used to be for only 2-3 days and was often wildly inaccurate.


PSIP data is provided by the stations. Sometimes it's complete, sometimes it's just the name of the program -- especially on the subchannels.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

ncbill said:


> has over-the-air guide info improved? it used to be for only 2-3 days and was often wildly inaccurate.


OTA guide data (PSIP/EIT), per the FCC, is (mostly) required to be accurate for the current show (so you can know what you are seeing). Future content on the primary subchannel is expected to be best effort accuracy (as everyone knows things do change), with the rules being no more than 12 hours are required at all (which because of the groupings used may actually mean no more than 9 hours into the future, since you may be towards the end of the existing group). Some stations broadcast (a lot) more, and some broadcast the minimum. Some TV's will use (or attempt to use) alternative guide sources via their Internet connectivity, although the channel matching is not always accurate or complete (testing the Android TV Live Channel network tuner functionality at one point in the past I found it often got the match right, but occasionally it completely missed).


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

ncbill said:


> Looking forward to getting it...I have an outdoor amplified antenna that can receive (out-of-market) broadcasts
> from the largest market in my state, which will likely be the first with regular (not just low-power tests) ATSC 3.0 broadcasts.


Actually, in the general case (and each case is different) the larger markets are less likely to be the earliest ATSC 3.0 conversions, since there is no (shared company) transmitter to usurp (and after the repack there is no spare frequencies to build out a new transmitter in those larger markets), and will require two or more broadcasters who are otherwise aggressive competitors to agree to cooperate. This can get, um, "interesting" (although in most markets all the station owners are rumored to be talking). The markets that are furthest along with ATSC 3.0 plans/processes are the smaller market where some company like Sinclair owns two or more different stations so it is easier to agree to agree (when corporate says jump, the local station managers only question is how high).


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Update received:


> Quick tracking update...
> 
> The container has been picked up from the factory.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

OMG Silicon Dust has the worst luck in the world, lol...


> The good news - the container landed in Los Angeles late last week.
> 
> The bad news - the container is currently unavailable to be picked up, we are told due to a cyber attack disrupting the shipping company's systems:
> 
> ...


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Delivery is getting closer! 


> Friday (tomorrow) - container is being picked up in Los Angeles. Paper process FTW!
> 
> Saturday - container is being delivered to our site.
> 
> ...


Kickstarter backers just received an e-mail asking for confirmation of shipping address.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Shipments are going out. I got an e-mail today saying most of the dev units are on the way, and the consumer/beta units are starting to ship too. The e-mail contains info about firmware updates and online support.

I see on the SD forum that folks are receiving their tracking numbers. Still no ATSC 3.0 stations here, but I plan to keep my unit in my network so it gets updates and testing. (Not being a developer, I'll keep it lower than my current unit on the Channels DVR priority list of course).


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

I've got a feeling we'll be buying these on woot before yours arrive. Good luck!


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> I've got a feeling we'll be buying these on woot before yours arrive. Good luck!


Heh. Could be.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Got my shipping label notice.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Got my shipping label notice.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

*Five Oklahoma City Stations Roll Out ATSC 3.0*
Five Oklahoma City Stations Roll Out ATSC 3.0

Kind of figured with Sinclair, Hearst and Nexstar in OKC they would go 3.0 sooner than other areas, but didn't expect it now.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

osu1991 said:


> *Five Oklahoma City Stations Roll Out ATSC 3.0*
> Five Oklahoma City Stations Roll Out ATSC 3.0
> 
> Kind of figured with Sinclair, Hearst and Nexstar in OKC they would go 3.0 sooner than other areas, but didn't expect it now.


That is a LOT earlier than I expected. A VERY good sign!


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

It's here. Comes with a commemorative coin as a reward for Kickstarter backers... I never know what to do with those, lol, but thanks.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Picking up these additional 5000 range channels in the Bay Area. Test signals? No video data at this time.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

Tuner 2 is not an ATSC 3.0 tuner so I wasn't expecting anything too exciting, and sure enough on the Channels DVR forum someone determined those signals are from the KGO repeater. But it's interesting that the Connect 4K picks them up while the Connect Quatro does not.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

My Quattro picks up a repeater for KOTV and puts it in the 5000 range. It just did this the last few months after a software update and KOTV was the last local station to move as part of the repack.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Picking up these additional 5000 range channels in the Bay Area. Test signals?


Any channel for which their is *something* detected, but not sufficient to analyze is assigned the 5xxx range. It could be an out of market low power station, or a subchannel on some existing transmitter which is not yet fully instantiated or removed (Sutro, in the initial plans, was expected to be have ongoing cleanup changes until around a month ago, and I can easily see it may have gotten shifted since the entire schedule had lots of time to adjust for real world delays).

You should be able to get some additional info from the json tuning data, but generally if you run the cli scan you may get more info about all frequencies and power levels and subchannels, even those that the tuner does not acknowledge, and then you can look up the FCC registration data.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> But it's interesting that the Connect 4K picks them up while the Connect Quatro does not.


Pretty much in every new(er) generation of devices the tuner is improved. That is true for TV manufacturers, and for SiliconDust, and for Hauppauge, and every other manufacturer (silicon tuner vendors such as MaxLinear always announce their new products are more sensitive and better performance than previous generations).


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

CommunityMember said:


> Any channel for which their is *something* detected, but not sufficient to analyze is assigned the 5xxx range.


Thanks, that's new information. I've turned off those channels in the Connect 4K menu, and now it lists the same number of channels as the Quatro.










Since someone will ask after seeing the above: I own two Primes, but the other one is waiting for the last TiVo in the house to retire or fail so it can have that CableCARD. That's assuming we even still want cable at that point (and that the cards are still supported). We only watch three cable channels.



CommunityMember said:


> Pretty much in every new(er) generation of devices the tuner is improved.


Silicon Dust is not making such claims for this one, but that's probably just because they're focused on the ATSC 3.0 features which are still very much in beta it seems.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

wizwor said:


> I've got a feeling we'll be buying these on woot before yours arrive. Good luck!


I just got an offer to pre-buy an HDHR5-4K for $199.99

*HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K Pre-Order*
_All Kickstarter HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K units with support for ATSC 3.0 have shipped. If you are a Kickstarter supporter and haven't received a confirmation yet, please visit Kickstarter and confirm your address ASAP!
If you missed the Kickstarter you can now pre-order the HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K on the Silicondust Shop website._
*HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K (P/N: HDHR5-4K) PRE-ORDER AVAILABLE*
_$199.99
_
*HDHomeRun 4K*
*Pre-Order Available!*
*FREE SHIPPING (Excluding Alaska and Hawaii)*​


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> I just got an offer to pre-buy an HDHR5-4K for $199.99


That's the same price we paid for the non-dev Kickstarter unit, except it came with a commemorative coin which they also offered separately for $29 as a little fundraiser. $199 still seems like a good price though, as it may go up after this batch is sold out.


----------



## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> That's the same price we paid for the non-dev Kickstarter unit, except it came with a commemorative coin which they also offered separately for $29 as a little fundraiser. $199 still seems like a good price though, as it may go up after this batch is sold out.


Still too much for me -- especially with no 4kTV to watch.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> Still too much for me -- especially with no 4kTV to watch.


Understood. Especially since although that's less than the _retail _price of the Quatro, the Quatro is cheaper on Amazon: $149.

Am keeping an eye on this list: ATSC 3.0 Station List || rabbitears.info


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Am keeping an eye on this list: ATSC 3.0 Station List || rabbitears.info


Me too. My big problem is that most of what I watch is on channels not on that list. Secondary problem is that most of the channels on that list mostly broadcast SD programming. A lot has to happen before we enjoy 4k programming OTA and most of the people pulling the levers have a long history of screwing things up.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> Me too. My big problem is that most of what I watch is on channels not on that list. Secondary problem is that most of the channels on that list mostly broadcast SD programming. A lot has to happen before we enjoy 4k programming OTA and most of the people pulling the levers have a long history of screwing things up.


Yes. Right now 3.0 tuners are a solution in search of a problem, lol.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Yes. Right now 3.0 tuners are a solution in search of a problem, lol.


Just the same, if I had more time, I would probably have grabbed one ;-) I have three HDHRs, Plex with Lifetime (DVR), and 4kFTV sticks on all my televisions. I have always been enamored of the idea of an array of narrow beam antennas targeting specific stations streaming to my televisions via the Plex server, but the whole idea is mental masturbation -- my reception is fine, I like the Roamios, and OTT gets better every day.

I am very interested in your adventure, so please keep posting here.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> I am very interested in your adventure, so please keep posting here.


The adventure continues, with almost daily firmware updates. Also the new circuitry continues to prove it's more sensitive than the Quatro's, with two more 5000-range channels showing up.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Understood. Especially since although that's less than the _retail _price of the Quatro, the Quatro is cheaper on Amazon: $149.
> 
> Am keeping an eye on this list: ATSC 3.0 Station List || rabbitears.info


Thanks for the link. How can you tell which stations are 3.0? Are they the ones highlighted green? I can't find a legend/key.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

mdavej said:


> Thanks for the link. How can you tell which stations are 3.0? Are they the ones highlighted green? I can't find a legend/key.


Legend is at the top of the page in the link. They are all stations that have applied for 3.0 licenses.

Legend

This table shows stations that have filed with the FCC to operate in ATSC 3.0. Stations in green have yet to launch, stations pink are believed to be off the air, and stations in yellow either missed their proposed launch date or have otherwise not been confirmed as operational in ATSC 3.0.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Thanks for the link. How can you tell which stations are 3.0? Are they the ones highlighted green? I can't find a legend/key.


I broke my link by pasting the url in twice somehow. Let's try that again, sorry:

ATSC 3.0 Station List || rabbitears.info


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Just an update. I did receive and setup my Connect 4K (non-dev) today. I am located in the Salt Lake City area, which went live with ATSC 3.0 on July 1st. When I scan with the hdhomerun command line tools, 4 ATSC 3.0 channels are found. But, I can't connect to them. Possibly not running at full power yet, or some other situation. Not sure if I can rely on the lock stats. I hope those are correct. I live in an area with poor reception, and my signal quality (snq) is typically around 50. ASTC 3.0 is supposed to be easier to receive. As a side note, the Connect 4K tuners seem to be a little better than my Extend.

LOCK: atsc3 (ss=90 snq=100 seq=100)
PROGRAM 5001: 14.1 KJZZ
PROGRAM 5002: 30.1 KUCW (no data)
PROGRAM 5003: 2.1 KUTV (no data)
PROGRAM 5004: 4.1 KTVX (no data)


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Another update. I'm far from an expert in this stuff, but it looks like there is some variability in how broadcasters can implement the ATSC 3.0 spec. The Connect 4K firmware may have worked in the market where SD did their initial testing. But, as people started using it in other markets, they started running into issues. Details can be found in the SD ATSC 3.0 forum. Hopefully, the next firmware update will fix the issues I'm seeing. Also, from what I understand the latest Channels DVR server beta appears to somehow decode Dolby AC-4, which would be amazing. And, the newest LG TVs also appear to decode AC-4.

With the right options in the URL I can stream all of the channels in my previous post with VLC. The picture quality looks good. But, nothing in my market is 4K yet. No sound, of course (VLC doesn't decode AC-4). One of the best things so far for my particular situation is the signal quality is dramatically better. There's a mountain between my location and the broadcast towers. My ATSC 1.0 signal quality is typically just above 50%. My ATSC 3.0 signal quality is typically 100%.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

tivolocity said:


> Hopefully, the next firmware update will fix the issues I'm seeing.


Just got another update, 20201021. I'm checking my.hdhomerun.com regularly for firmware.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

I've got it installed. It fixed one part of one problem. Several more to go. But, progress is progress.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

tivolocity said:


> One of the best things so far for my particular situation is the signal quality is dramatically better. There's a mountain between my location and the broadcast towers. My ATSC 1.0 signal quality is typically just above 50%. My ATSC 3.0 signal quality is typically 100%.


COFDM (the encoding that ATSC 3.0 uses) tends to be more tolerant of certain RF impairments than 8vsb (which ATSC 1.0 uses), but, as always there are edge cases where the reverse is true. And during these early days the transmitter being used for ATSC 3.0 may not be the ones that are eventually used (in a few years) for the channels you are interested in (although the use of SFN will also enable different transmitter strategies in the long run).


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

tivolocity said:


> But, nothing in my market is 4K yet.


In most markets, due to the transmitter sharing and limited bitrates allocated to each station, 4K is still going to be more the occasional coordinated "stunt" than a regular occurrence. And while most stations have 1080p capable equipment in the local studio (that is, more or less, a common standard) and is downconverted to 720p or 1080i (depending on the stations standards) for ATSC 1.0 broadcasts, making 1080p possible for their ATSC 3.0 local broadcasts, only the big network O&O stations tend to have a big enough budget to be able to replace all their local equipment for true 4K (especially for the first gen equipment which has a price premium) which will be required to be able to see the local news in true HDR 4K.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

tivolocity said:


> Another update. I'm far from an expert in this stuff, but it looks like there is some variability in how broadcasters can implement the ATSC 3.0 spec.


The specs includes lots of options (the specs are a very long read across many many documents). Not all broadcasters have chosen the same options (and no one really thought they would all choose the same options). Now that more devices are out there more of the variety of options are being experienced in the real world. Since LG was one of the first with available ATSC 3.0 tuner silicon, I expect their TV's are far more likely to support all the variants out of the box, but SD is working to get there.


> ... VLC doesn't decode AC-4 ...


While Dolby AC-4 is similar to Dolby ATMOS, it is enough different to require some changes in implementation. And, of course, AC-4 is a patent minefield (pretty much all codecs are, and that includes ATMOS) so while the underlying codec details may be public, until the major platforms (Apple MacOS/iOS, Windows 10, Android) have incorporated the various codecs into their base distribution use is going to be problematic for those that respect the rights of IP holders in their jurisdiction (until the patents expired Dolby requested that a number of apps be removed from the various app stores for including AC-3 without a license, and no one expects things to be different for AC-4).


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

tivolocity said:


> I've got it installed. It fixed one part of one problem. Several more to go. But, progress is progress.


Try 20201021b, they just uploaded it.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Thanks for all the great info CommunityMember. I'm sure things will evolve as ATSC 3.0 continues to roll out. There was an article a while back talking the upgrade to the transmission facility for the SLC market. I don't have enough technical knowledge in that area to know if it sheds any light on how ATSC 3.0 will continue to roll out in SLC, and the future of my signal quality. Dielectric Installs ATSC 3.0-Ready System at DTV Utah Facility | TV Technology

Pokemon_Dad, I installed 20201021b last night. It solved the issue of the channel scan finding all of the available ATSC 3.0 channels in SLC. Now I can select those channels in the HDHomeRun and Channels apps. But, I don't get any video, and as expected, no audio. But, VLC still works. Unfortunately, it appears the lastest firmware broke the channel scan for Phoenix. The SD dev team has got their hands full with trying to figure out how to get the firmware to work in all markets.

I'm sure they will eventually get it figured out. Then it seems like the last big hurdle will be Dolby AC-4.


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

Installed firmware v20201022. Congrats to the SD dev team for making some big leaps today! They appear to be decoding AC-4. It sounds like with the latest firmware and the latest HDHomeRun app on Windows, things are working as they should.

Since I'm in the Apple ecosystem things aren't quite there yet. I do get video and audio. But, it's very choppy.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

tivolocity said:


> Then it seems like the last big hurdle will be Dolby AC-4.


AC-4 will get worked out in the commercial/licensed products fairly quickly (Dolby has a SDK to build against and a process to get certified, and if you already license DD there is usually no additional charge). Open source VLC, on the other hand, has a completely different path they will need to follow.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> In most markets, due to the transmitter sharing and limited bitrates allocated to each station, 4K is still going to be more the occasional coordinated "stunt" than a regular occurrence. And while most stations have 1080p capable equipment in the local studio (that is, more or less, a common standard) and is downconverted to 720p or 1080i (depending on the stations standards) for ATSC 1.0 broadcasts, making 1080p possible for their ATSC 3.0 local broadcasts, only the big network O&O stations tend to have a big enough budget to be able to replace all their local equipment for true 4K (especially for the first gen equipment which has a price premium) which will be required to be able to see the local news in true HDR 4K.


I really wonder about the future of 4K and HDR content over free OTA signals, at least in the next few years. Are the broadcast networks interested in giving those premium formats away for free? Or would they rather retain them for their own OTT subscription services (e.g. Hulu for ABC, Peacock for NBC, Paramount+ for CBS) and maybe also cable subscribers paying via MVPD systems? As for local content, does anyone really care about seeing their local newscasts in 4K HDR?

At least some of the broadcast nets have given indications over the past few years that they plan to offer 1080p HDR for at least some content broadcast via their ATSC 3.0 affiliates. So maybe we will see that. But if so, you can bet it will show up on their partner OTT platforms too (probably in actual 4K HDR, not bandwidth-saving 1080p HDR).


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> I really wonder about the future of 4K and HDR content over free OTA signals, at least in the next few years. Are the broadcast networks interested in giving those premium formats away for free? Or would they rather retain them for their own OTT subscription services (e.g. Hulu for ABC, Peacock for NBC, Paramount+ for CBS) and maybe also cable subscribers paying via MVPD systems?


First, nothing is free. These are ad supported products. The entertainment industry made a lot of money before pay tv and the most successful sports product is offered almost exclusively via ad supported networks.



NashGuy said:


> As for local content, does anyone really care about seeing their local newscasts in 4K HDR?


I would argue there is no longer local content. Local news is simply national news with less attractive presenters. In Boston, WHDH is an exception. Since parting with NBC, WHDH has returned to a more local focus and I like it a lot.


NashGuy said:


> At least some of the broadcast nets have given indications over the past few years that they plan to offer 1080p HDR for at least some content broadcast via their ATSC 3.0 affiliates. So maybe we will see that. But if so, you can bet it will show up on their partner OTT platforms too (probably in actual 4K HDR, not bandwidth-saving 1080p HDR).


OTT is getting much better quickly. It's also getting expensive quickly. At the same time cable and satellite services are losing a lot of customers. 'Exclusivity' has done great harm to many of these businesses -- including TiVo. In the future, by the time ATSC 3.0 is established (if that ever happens), there will be a divide between content providers and content distributors and exclusivity will be too expensive to make sense for all but the most block buster events. I expect good 4K content to continue to dribble out for a very long time, but, what is out, will be distributed widely.

That said, a lot of 'must see' tv is losing value. Superbowl ratings peaked in 2012 and have been steadily dropping. Even at a time when people can not go out for entertainment, sports viewing is tanking. So, yeah, it is possible that all we will get in 4k will be the national news presented by less attractive people.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> Local news is simply national news with less attractive presenters.


LOL. Thanks a _lot_. Now I'll never be able to look at them again without chuckling. Seriously though, they do report on a lot of local stuff, most of which doesn't get into the national feeds. They scrape that barrel so low, even I've been on the local news a once or twice, in New York and San Francisco.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

tivolocity said:


> Installed firmware v20201022. Congrats to the SD dev team for making some big leaps today! They appear to be decoding AC-4. It sounds like with the latest firmware and the latest HDHomeRun app on Windows, things are working as they should.
> 
> Since I'm in the Apple ecosystem things aren't quite there yet. I do get video and audio. But, it's very choppy.


As of that one or the next (20201023), I'm no longer seeing 5000 range non-channels in my list. Maybe they cleaned that up.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> LOL. Thanks a _lot_. Now I'll never be able to look at them again without chuckling. Seriously though, they do report on a lot of local stuff, most of which doesn't get into the national feeds. They scrape that barrel so low, even I've been on the local news a once or twice, in New York and San Francisco.


I enjoy real local news and Maine stations still do that. In fact, Maine stations might actually be running stuff that happened in the 60's. When I had an antenna pointing towards Portland, we got a couple. My wife and I used to watch in the morning just to see what 'farmer's daughter' got dispatched to which potato farm and exactly what she would have to say about it. Closer to Hee Haw (which I still love) than local news.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

wizwor said:


> I enjoy real local news and Maine stations still do that. In fact, Maine stations might actually be running stuff that happened in the 60's. When I had an antenna pointing towards Portland, we got a couple. My wife and I used to watch in the morning just to see what 'farmer's daughter' got dispatched to which potato farm and exactly what she would have to say about it. Closer to Hee Haw (which I still love) than local news.


Heh. Well I bet my appearances - and appearance - couldn't hold a candle to the farmer's daughters reports!


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wizwor said:


> First, nothing is free. These are ad supported products. The entertainment industry made a lot of money before pay tv and the most successful sports product is offered almost exclusively via ad supported networks.


Whatever. The vast majority of folks consider TV that doesn't cost money to be free, even if it does contain ads. OTA TV is free TV. And sure, the NFL and other popular sports are offered almost exclusively via ad-supported networks but the sports industry's economics would be very different if it weren't for the fact that those broadcast networks also rake in a LOT of subscription revenue from their local affiliates via MVPDs (e.g. Comcast's $15/mo broadcast TV fee).



wizwor said:


> I would argue there is no longer local content. Local news is simply national news with less attractive presenters. In Boston, WHDH is an exception. Since parting with NBC, WHDH has returned to a more local focus and I like it a lot.


Another weird take. While a bit of each newscast is often devoted to national stories (especially in an election year), the vast majority of time is spent on events happening in the local viewing area, along with local weather and what's going on with the nearest pro and college sports teams.



wizwor said:


> 'Exclusivity' has done great harm to many of these businesses -- including TiVo. In the future, by the time ATSC 3.0 is established (if that ever happens), there will be a divide between content providers and content distributors and exclusivity will be too expensive to make sense for all but the most block buster events.


Not quite sure what you're getting at, but the general trend is in the opposite direction of what you're saying: the biggest content providers are now also content distributors and increasingly are becoming the exclusive distributors of the content they produce. We're really seeing this with Disney (Disney+, Hulu, ABC, etc.); WarnerMedia (HBO Max) is moving rapidly in that direction too.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

has there been any more info about the HDHR5-4K? I see it's for sale on Amazon now. The DC area is supposed to start ATSC 3.0 broadcasting this Summer. So I'm just checking to see what my options are.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> has there been any more info about the HDHR5-4K? I see it's for sale on Amazon now. The DC area is supposed to start ATSC 3.0 broadcasting this Summer. So I'm just checking to see what my options are.


We've had ATSC 3.0 here in Nashville since June but it seems to be a bit of a science experiment from what few firsthand reports I've gathered. (There just aren't many folks out there who have 3.0 tuners yet.)

Go here for a few recent posts from a local guy with the HDHR5-4K and his experiences with both 3.0 and 1.0 broadcasts in this area:
Nashville, TN - OTA


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## tivolocity (Aug 12, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> has there been any more info about the HDHR5-4K? I see it's for sale on Amazon now. The DC area is supposed to start ATSC 3.0 broadcasting this Summer. So I'm just checking to see what my options are.


I agree with NashGuy. If you want to "experiment" with ATSC 3.0, it's great. But, ATSC 3.0 in general isn't quite ready for prime time. The broadcasters are still dialing in what they're doing. Nobody is broadcasting in 4K yet. Dolby AC-4 support is coming along, but not quite there depending on your client hardware. And, the HDHR5-4K firmware has more revs to go, compounded by adapting to changes by the broadcasters.

I've completely switched over from TiVo to HDHR-4K/Prime/Channels DVR, with Apple TV 4K and Fire TV 4K clients. But, I don't really watch or record the ATSC 3.0 broadcasts for now. Once a few more of the kinks are worked out I will. But, I'm very happy with my new setup. I'll be selling my TiVo gear pretty soon.


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## ksalno (Jul 31, 2005)

tivolocity said:


> I've completely switched over from TiVo to HDHR-4K/Prime/Channels DVR, with Apple TV 4K and Fire TV 4K clients. But, I don't really watch or record the ATSC 3.0 broadcasts for now. Once a few more of the kinks are worked out I will. But, I'm very happy with my new setup. I'll be selling my TiVo gear pretty soon.


I'm looking to replace my TiVo Bolt and mini's to be ready for the ATSC 3.0 roll-out this year in the DC area. I have the same clients, ordered a HDHR-4K, and can install a Channels DVR on one of my NAS. I was wondering about the Prime component you mentioned. Is that referring to Prime Video, the streaming service or something else? I'm trying to figure out how it fits into an OTA scenario.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ksalno said:


> I'm looking to replace my TiVo Bolt and mini's to be ready for the ATSC 3.0 roll-out this year in the DC area. I have the same clients, ordered a HDHR-4K, and can install a Channels DVR on one of my NAS. I was wondering about the Prime component you mentioned. Is that referring to Prime Video, the streaming service or something else? I'm trying to figure out how it fits into an OTA scenario.


He's referring to an HDHomeRun Prime tuner. It accepts a CableCARD, like many TiVo DVRs do, allowing you to watch and record channels from a traditional (QAM) cable TV operator like Comcast, Charter, Verizon FiOS, Cox, etc. So it sounds like he's using that tuner for cable channels and the new HDHR-4K for OTA channels. (You can use multiple HDHomeRun tuners on the same home network.)

Unfortunately, the HDHomeRun Prime was discontinued years ago. If you want one, you'd have to find one used on eBay or elsewhere.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

ksalno said:


> I was wondering about the Prime component you mentioned. Is that referring to Prime Video, the streaming service or something else? I'm trying to figure out how it fits into an OTA scenario.





NashGuy said:


> Unfortunately, the HDHomeRun Prime was discontinued years ago. If you want one, you'd have to find one used on eBay or elsewhere.


They are making the Prime again. They found the parts for a few thousand more units, so that will be available for a while yet. It includes three tuners. Before that happened I bought mine on eBay as you mentioned, in great condition and at a very good price, and if you're interested then eBay is still worth a try what with all the people out there cutting the cord entirely. (I also have a Connect Quatro and a Connect 4K but we're keeping the Prime for cable news and talk.)


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## ksalno (Jul 31, 2005)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> They are making the Prime again. They found the parts for a few thousand more units, so that will be available for a while yet. It includes three tuners. Before that happened I bought mine on eBay as you mentioned, in great condition and at a very good price, and if you're interested then eBay is still worth a try what with all the people out there cutting the cord entirely. (I also have a Connect Quatro and a Connect 4K but we're keeping the Prime for cable news and talk.)


Thanks. I've never had cable but had DTV for many years. Finally cut the cord a year ago and not looking to go back to cable.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> They are making the Prime again. They found the parts for a few thousand more units, so that will be available for a while yet. It includes three tuners.


Oh, I hadn't heard that. I knew that they had said for a long while that they would roll out a new CableCARD-based tuner product but then finally cancelled it recently after many delays.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Oh, I hadn't heard that. I knew that they had said for a long while that they would roll out a new CableCARD-based tuner product but then finally cancelled it recently after many delays.


Sad but true, the Prime 6 is never going to happen, for reasons that only make sense if you've torn your hair out trying to procure a consistent supply of electronic parts for a very small company's project, when any change to the design could force you to resubmit the plans to a very unfriendly and expensive approval process all over again. And again. And again.

I popped the CableCARD from a buggy Bolt into one of my "Prime 3" units. I don't really need more tuners but I bought a second one in anticipation of the demise of our much-beloved Roamio.


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

ksalno said:


> Thanks. I've never had cable but had DTV for many years. Finally cut the cord a year ago and not looking to go back to cable.


Good for you. Channels DVR will certainly work well with your OTA tuner. ATSC 3.0 quality seems to be a moving target though, as both the broadcasters and the tuner software devs continue to make changes, but what I've seen on the Channels Community forum looks encouraging. No ATSC 3.0 in my neck of the woods just yet, so I hope to see a report from you.


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## DBV1 (Jul 13, 2018)

I sttill have my TiVo Roamio, but did buy a HD HomeRun Quattro ATSC 3.0 tuner OTA and have been using it with the Channels App for the last couple months. Really like the Channels App and how you can integrate TVE along with OTA. Quality on OTA seems very similar to the Roamio. However, I don’t think the tuner is as strong. 

Has anyone else noticed that or maybe I am wrong. Too bad if it is not as strong, as I really like that along with the Channels App, but not if I am going to have some signal issues. Does not happen a lot, just sporadically.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

DBV1 said:


> However, I don't think the tuner is as strong.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that or maybe I am wrong.


Different tuner silicon, so no doubt differences in reception capabilities. If one is near fringe or worse (fringe or deep fringe) one typically needs to consider better antennas (which in some cases may include on-mast pre-amps), or a much taller tower. If something like rabbitears.info does not show deep green signal levels from all stations in exactly the same direction you likely need to work on that.


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## DBV1 (Jul 13, 2018)

CommunityMember said:


> Different tuner silicon, so no doubt differences in reception capabilities. If one is near fringe or worse (fringe or deep fringe) one typically needs to consider better antennas (which in some cases may include on-mast pre-amps), or a much taller tower. If something like rabbitears.info does not show deep green signal levels from all stations in exactly the same direction you likely need to work on that.


Thanks - I understand all that, but the question I asked was has anyone that has used/owned a TiVo Roamio OTA and HD Homerun Quattro ATSC 3.0 OTA Tuners noticed that that HD Homerun OTA tuner is not as good as the Roamio tuner? As it sure seems that way when comparing them with my setup. I thought I had read they were both comparable, but I am not seeing that.

Not talking about fringe stations or antenna issues.


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