# Will there be a 3 or 4 tuner Tivo HD?



## robertebrown (May 29, 2008)

I have a Tivo HD. Two HD tuners just aren't enough.
I'd like 3 or 4 HD tuners. And I only want to pay for one
Tivo subscription. Is this likely to become
available in the not too distant future?
(After all, AT&T Uverse DVR has 4 tuners,
though only two of them are HD.)


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

Stay tuned with what you presently have. Time will reveal.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

It happens to me a lot where I am recording two shows and want to watch another but can't. So having more than 2 tuners would be a great idea in a Tivo!


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## WVZR1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Although you might be a "bit restricted" with the "watch live" choices you can always use your TV tuner as a "third tuner". I've done a "drop tap" at every outlet with a tap to the TiVo and a tap to the tuner of the TV.

Granted, I'm limited to what's available on unencripted QAM or "analog" cable presently for the second tap but I believe I'll likely add a drop to the two outlets where I have TiVo's to include OTA.

I don't really see the need for three TiVo tuners (for me) but I do like the availabilty of the "third" for "watch live" while recording "two"!!


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> Stay tuned with what you presently have. Time will reveal.


You are one puny poster.


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

With my FiOS setup I have an HD DVR and an S3 on one TV, giving me 4 tuners on that set. The other two TVs just have HD STBs, but I can watch whatever's recorded on the HD DVR from the STBs.


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## muerte33 (Jul 4, 2008)

That is why I was so excited about this Nero Liquid TV.
I was hoping someone would make a PCI TV HD card that accepted cable cards.
2 Mcards per PCI card, a big RAID drive, and a Quad Core (or dual) and you are set.


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

muerte33 said:


> That is why I was so excited about this Nero Liquid TV.
> I was hoping someone would make a PCI TV HD card that accepted cable cards.
> 2 Mcards per PCI card, a big RAID drive, and a Quad Core (or dual) and you are set.


ATI did/does make one. That was an option when I bought my PC. I didn't get it. I was afraid that 1) when TWC saw where the card would go that they'd refuse to do it. 2) that SDV would make it useless anyway. I'm not sure a tuning adaptor will help anything that's not a TIVO.

I did, however, get a different ATI TV tuner card. It works great for those times I need a 3rd tuner.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

With Online places like:

www.hulu.com
www.abc.com
www.cbs.com
www.cwtv.com
www.netflix.com
www.apple.com (itunes)

I think 2 tuner is just fine now. I was hoping for 4 tuner about 2 years ago, but times are changing....


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Two tuners is never enough for diehard couch potatoes. Downloaded content is inferior when it comes to picture quality so I don't even consider it as part of my viewing equation. I've got two dual tuner S3 Tivos and an HTPC with six ATSC tuners for a total of ten tuners (and that's just connected to a single HDTV).

I'd be surprised if Tivo ever came out with a unit that has more than two tuners. They live and die by the number of Tivo subscriptions they sell. I doubt that they'd invest in designing a unit that would seriously cut into their already bleak profit margin.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Two tuners is never enough for diehard couch potatoes. Downloaded content is inferior when it comes to picture quality so I don't even consider it as part of my viewing equation. I've got two dual tuner S3 Tivos and an HTPC with six ATSC tuners for a total of ten tuners (and that's just connected to a single HDTV).
> 
> I'd be surprised if Tivo ever came out with a unit that has more than two tuners. They live and die by the number of Tivo subscriptions they sell. I doubt that they'd invest in designing a unit that would seriously cut into their already bleak profit margin.


I'd be surprised if they did, but then again I get surprised a lot. They could always charge more for the subscription for the 4 tuner model, although that would probably upset customers.


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## xboard07 (Dec 16, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Two tuners is never enough for diehard couch potatoes. Downloaded content is inferior when it comes to picture quality so I don't even consider it as part of my viewing equation. I've got two dual tuner S3 Tivos and an HTPC with six ATSC tuners for a total of ten tuners (and that's just connected to a single HDTV).
> 
> I'd be surprised if Tivo ever came out with a unit that has more than two tuners. They live and die by the number of Tivo subscriptions they sell. I doubt that they'd invest in designing a unit that would seriously cut into their already bleak profit margin.


10 tuners on one TV!! You need to get out of the house more. Maybe go for a walk.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Gregor said:


> I'd be surprised if they did, but then again I get surprised a lot. They could always charge more for the subscription for the 4 tuner model, although that would probably upset customers.


when 4 tuners are prevalent in DVRs from cable companies then TiVo will have 4 - till then I would work within the 2 tuners per DVR paradigm or get a PC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I have been hoping for 4 tuners since series 1. I currently run 3 Directivos in my bedroom alone. I think part of this comes from the major desire of not having to manage multiple Tivos and their season passes. Also so if I watch a show in one room I don't have to go through every Tivo manually and delete the show. 

Personally at this point I keep hoping for a Tivo media server setup more where I can hook one box up with the option to add up to ten tuners. You could even make it require one driver per every two tuners. Then you could instantly watch remotely with any Tivo box or even replay it through devices such as the 360/PS3. Maybe even the option to hook up something like Drobo for autobackup.

I would try building a HTPC but DTV scrapped their PC tuner devices from what I read.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

With MRV, TiVo DVRs are modular and you can add two tuners at a time with the addition of each new DVR. Other DVR makers without modular upgrade abilities need more tuners. Dish is an example fo that. The only way to transport shows between those units is to sneakernet a DVR expander between units. That is unfriendly enough that they add a third tuner that only does over the air inputs.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

At one point I remember rumors of a TiVo "whole home" DVR. Maybe from some TiVo conference call? I envisioned it having a giant hard drive, something like 4 tuners, and the ability to watch and control it from any TV in the house.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

4 tuners might make sense on a FiOS DVR (with a much larger hard drive). FiOS has an option that lets you stream shows to non-DVR STB. One DVR for your house.

I suspect most tivo customers who want 4 tuners have more then one TV set in their house. Those customers are better served with two tivos. My answer would be different if tivo offered a box that could be used to view shows from a tivo. I'm not sure how much cheaper that box would be then a tivo. I don't think the tuners add that much to the total cost of the unit. The savings may be with cable card rental charges. I'm not sure how many streams a M card can decode, I know it's more then 2.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

lew said:


> I'm not sure how many streams a M card can decode, I know it's more then 2.


Six


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

lew said:


> My answer would be different if tivo offered a box that could be used to view shows from a tivo. I'm not sure how much cheaper that box would be then a tivo. I don't think the tuners add that much to the total cost of the unit.


If TiVo were to add a DLNA server to their DVRs, you could get any DLNA client box such as a game console, video receiver, or built into your TV that could play streams from the DVR.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

CuriousMark said:


> With MRV, TiVo DVRs are modular and you can add two tuners at a time with the addition of each new DVR. Other DVR makers without modular upgrade abilities need more tuners. Dish is an example fo that. The only way to transport shows between those units is to sneakernet a DVR expander between units. That is unfriendly enough that they add a third tuner that only does over the air inputs.


This only addresses watching shows in another room and doesn't address better and smarter conflict resolution or even less conflicts with more tuners.

Also I haven't played with MRV but is it instant now similar to using a 360 with a PC or is it still streaming where you have to wait for the transfer? And last I heard you can't delete a show remotely but again having not played with MRV, thanks Directv, I have never used it since it still cost an addtional fee on my series 2 before I made the switch to DTV.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> This only addresses watching shows in another room and doesn't address better and smarter conflict resolution or even less conflicts with more tuners.
> 
> Also I haven't played with MRV but is it instant now similar to using a 360 with a PC or is it still streaming where you have to wait for the transfer? And last I heard you can't delete a show remotely but again having not played with MRV, thanks Directv, I have never used it since it still cost an addtional fee on my series 2 before I made the switch to DTV.


You are right that it still leaves you to arbitrate conflicts between the DVRs. The feature request to address that would be cooperative scheduling, and without that MRV is not a complete solution to conflict resolution.

MRV is a transfer, not a stream, however you can start playback pretty much immediately and if the transfer rate is fast enough, skip commercials as you watch it. At the end of the show, you would need to delete it if you don't want to save a copy on the receiving DVR. Again, you are right, you cannot do a remote deletion.

While you are correct about these limitations, I do not personally find them to be problematic. Using a central server and light client machines would probably introduce a different set of limitations with similar kinds of issues. None of which, like these, would be bad enough to be considered a show stopper.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

CuriousMark said:


> MRV is a transfer, not a stream, however you can start playback pretty much immediately and if the transfer rate is fast enough, skip commercials as you watch it. At the end of the show, you would need to delete it if you don't want to save a copy on the receiving DVR. Again, you are right, you cannot do a remote deletion.


Ok cool. I swear I remember reading that most people would start a transfer before watching something else so by the time they were done they could now watch the transferred show. Then again this may have been very early versions of the software. Glad to hear it is pretty seamless these days. It only makes me want it more lol especially after using my 360 to do similar things now that it is networked.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> Ok cool. I swear I remember reading that most people would start a transfer before watching something else so by the time they were done they could now watch the transferred show.


Depending on a lot of things, including networking issues, file size, TiVo model, and recording quality, I can imagine situations where that might end up being the case. I have S2's and record at medium on a stable wireless network, and it is plenty fast for me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Unlike U-verse DVRs, TiVos also have to handle analog recordings. Which means that a 4 tuner TiVo would need 4 analog tuners and an encoder chip capable of handling 4 analog streams. I'm not sure such a platform even exists. And even if it does it's likely so expensive that a 4 tuner TiVo would cost more then simply buying two dual tuner TiVos. 

Plus where's the incentive for TiVo? Right now there are probably quite a large percentage of TiVo users with multiple DVRs. If they released a 4 tuner unit a lot of those users would eventually migrate to the new platform and they would lose the reoccurring revenue from the subscriptions. 

Honestly I don't think we'll see a 4 tuner TiVo until cable DVRs start coming with 4 tuners and TiVo is forced to create one to remain competitive.

Now cooperative scheduling among multiple TiVos is another story. I think they would be smart to come up with some way to handle that. Whether or not they actually will, I have no idea.

Dan


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

If TiVo came out with a networked system to permit cooperative SPs or even remote management, I'd get it. With five subscribed TiVos, balancing season passes and recording conflicts is frustrating exercise. Multiple tuners would help, but some sort of master control system would make my day.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I want more tuners to be able to add padding to EVERYTHING.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah I could definitely go with a master system. Let me choose which Tivo is the master box and choose which Tivo boxes to opt in so if you have one dedicated for children shows for example it would still be able to transfer shows but it wouldn't join the hive to merge season passes since you opted that box out. 

As far as having a Tivo with more than 2 tuners, I don't see Tivo losing out on that many if any boxes since you would still need a Tivo if you wanted to use MRV for other rooms. I would guess the majority of users with more than 1 Tivo box aren't using them all in one room. Obviously there are going to be a few but I figure most have more than one box so they can have it in every room they want it. Also I know I would be willing to pay a small additional subscription fee for additional tuners, say $2 for every additional pair of tuners. The hardware would obviously cost more.

How many Tivo subscriptions did they lose when they went from 1 tuner to dual tuners? Series 2 was pretty common by the time they rolled out dual tuners. 

Oh well one day Tivo or someone else will make my ultimate Tivo/DVR. Maybe we should start a dream tivo thread .


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## captkirk685 (Nov 23, 2006)

robertebrown said:


> I have a Tivo HD. Two HD tuners just aren't enough.
> I'd like 3 or 4 HD tuners. And I only want to pay for one
> Tivo subscription. Is this likely to become
> available in the not too distant future?
> ...


Yeah two is definatly not enough anymore, I have a total of 3 tivo hd's for a total of 6 tuners and it takes every bit of them for me to record everything. especially on Thursday nights


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

xboard07 said:


> 10 tuners on one TV!! You need to get out of the house more. Maybe go for a walk.


Surprisingly enough, having 10 tuners allows me to do other things than sit in front of the TV. I play in an APA Pool league two nights a week with my son and I'm usually fairly busy on the weekends. I record a lot of shows and watch them when I find the time. The nice thing about it is when all of the regular shows I watch are going into reruns, I'm still watching first-run episodes.

Ten tuners may seem like overkill but when you consider that I pad each recording, the additional tuners are there to pick up the overlap as well as to avoid any scheduling conflicts. I've actually seen all six tuners in my HTPC recording simultaneously, but only during the overlap period at the top of the hour.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Unlike U-verse DVRs, TiVos also have to handle analog recordings. Which means that a 4 tuner TiVo would need 4 analog tuners and an encoder chip capable of handling 4 analog streams. I'm not sure such a platform even exists. And even if it does it's likely so expensive that a 4 tuner TiVo would cost more then simply buying two dual tuner TiVos.


It doesn't need analog tuners at all really.

Most broadcasters and cable providers have everything digital by now, or at least would by the time such a box were to make it to market.


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## wpmulligan (Nov 13, 2006)

I only get six channels so two tuners is enough for me.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

lafos said:


> If TiVo came out with a networked system to permit cooperative SPs or even remote management, I'd get it. With five subscribed TiVos, balancing season passes and recording conflicts is frustrating exercise. Multiple tuners would help, but some sort of master control system would make my day.


+1. Doubt Tivo will ever spend the resource to implement this though. I suspect mult-Tivo households are still a very small minority of the overall user base.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

jfh3 said:


> +1. Doubt Tivo will ever spend the resource to implement this though. I suspect mult-Tivo households are still a very small minority of the overall user base.


Maybe - but TiVo have spent money to implement MRV, which is only useful in multi-TiVo households.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Maybe - but TiVo have spent money to implement MRV, which is only useful in multi-TiVo households.


I would say that 60% of the TiVo households that I am personally aware of have 2 or more.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

classicsat said:


> It doesn't need analog tuners at all really.
> 
> Most broadcasters and cable providers have everything digital by now, or at least would by the time such a box were to make it to market.


I don't think that's true. Although I'd love to see some data on how many cable providers are actually all digital, or digitally simulcast every channel.

Even if such a box could be made digital only, there is still no incentive to TiVo to build such a device. As it is now if you want 4 tuners you have to buy two boxes and pay two fees, which makes TiVo more money.

Like I said before the only reason TiVo would have to make a 4 tuner box is if cable companies started to offer 4 tuner DVRs and they had to do it to stay competitive. Otherwise they make more money by sticking to dual tuners.

Dan


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## lofar (Mar 21, 2008)

Dan203 said:


> Plus where's the incentive for TiVo? Right now there are probably quite a large percentage of TiVo users with multiple DVRs. If they released a 4 tuner unit a lot of those users would eventually migrate to the new platform and they would lose the reoccurring revenue from the subscriptions.


Tivo could switch to a per-tuner revenue model. I can't imagine it would be too difficult for their current software to block access to a tuner based on subscription. It could also bring them a new source of revenue and customers, people who are not serious TV watchers but don't want to miss their one favorite show a week. They could charge $7.99 a mo for the first tuner and $5 for each additional tuner and their revenue would be exactly the same.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

lofar said:


> Tivo could switch to a per-tuner revenue model. I can't imagine it would be too difficult for their current software to block access to a tuner based on subscription. It could also bring them a new source of revenue and customers, people who are not serious TV watchers but don't want to miss their one favorite show a week. They could charge $7.99 a mo for the first tuner and $5 for each additional tuner and their revenue would be exactly the same.


Another option to the revenue per tuner idea is to charge it in the price for the box. The additional $$ for a several tuner TiVo covering the lifetime difference in service subscription.

As far as the 4 tuners = 4 analog comment, that does not have to follow. TiVo introduced asymmetric tuning ability with the DT. 4 Tuners could be no more than two analog at a time, for example.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

<<I don't really see the need for three TiVo tuners (for me) but I do like the availabilty of the "third" for "watch live" while recording "two"!!>>
One needs at least six. But on the same hard drive? No.


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## slyone (Jul 22, 2005)

sounds to me like we all love the Tivolution


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think that's true. Although I'd love to see some data on how many cable providers are actually all digital, or digitally simulcast every channel.
> 
> Even if such a box could be made digital only, there is still no incentive to TiVo to build such a device. As it is now if you want 4 tuners you have to buy two boxes and pay two fees, which makes TiVo more money.
> 
> ...


while i bascially agree- but curious- is tivo finally at a point where they dont loose money on every box sold?


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> while i bascially agree- but curious- is tivo finally at a point where they dont loose money on every box sold?


I think they lost money on hardware sales last reported qtr - that's purely hardware rev vs cost of goods, no other expenses on top.

Not sure about whether any prior writedowns affected those numbers or how much.


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## berkshires (Feb 22, 2007)

To be more specific, TiVo reported:

Hardware revenues 12,777

Cost of hardware
revenues 16,339

Furthermore, some hardware business was related to:

MSOs/Broadcasters-related
hardware revenues 3,339

MSOs/Broadcasters-related cost
of hardware revenues (3,100)

Implying that some hardware profit was made in the MSO area, while the other hardware business was that much more negative.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

so the next step would be to figure if tivo would lose less money by selling a single 4 tuner box as compared to two 2-tuner boxes. I guess we'd need to figure the loss on each box and then figure out what the average MSD sub revenue is per box over it's lifetime. I'd guess long term that 2 boxes almost certainly makes them more money but things could get interesting if they changed up the subscription model some.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

my 2 cents is i need the second (and third...) boxes anyway for output to other tv's. So i'd just prefer that tivo borrow the idea that the hackers implemented YEARS ago- where the box checks twice an hour and sees if it has a conflict for the next half hour and if it does it polls the other boxes on the network asking for a spare tuner. 

not sure what's so tough about that.


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## glenncol (Mar 10, 2009)

With the two USB ports on the back of the Tivo HD, it would be nice to be able to plug in an additional dual USB tuner


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> With the two USB ports on the back of the Tivo HD, it would be nice to be able to plug in an additional dual USB tuner


Won't help you if you have both a tuning adapter and a wireless interface, though.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Won't help you if you have both a tuning adapter and a wireless interface, though.


It would work fine if the tuner also acted as a USB hub.

Although, again, I see no reason for TiVo to do this. It just doesn't make financial sense. The only thing in this thread that makes financial sense to TiVo is implementing some sort of cooperative scheduling among multiple TiVos. That would leave current multi-TiVo households intact while giving a little added incentive to those who currently only have one TiVo to buy a second.

Dan


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