# Copy Protection Affecting TTG



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Which of the programs indicated below are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service.

I'm seeing is the following programs Copy Protected:

- Animal Planet (ADS) - Meerkat Manor
- Travel Channel (ADS) - Anthony Bourdain, Passport to Europe, Taste of America, Globe Trekker, Floyd on Italy
- Noggin (SD) - Dawson's Creek
- TBS HD - Dawson's Creek, Law and Order:SVU
- HD Theater - HD Traveler, Risk Takers
- UHD - Six Feet Under, G Garvin, Firefly
- G4 (SD) - Star Trek:TNG
- Sci Fi (ADS) - Roswell

I'm also seeing a good number of programs free to transfer to TiVo Desktop:

- TNT HD - Law & Order
- WFXT-DT (HD) - Law & Order:CI
- (lots more)

I want to get a jump on addressing any mistakes in copy protection coding before it matters....


----------



## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

You cannot move Copy Protected programs. Nothing can change this.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm sorry but I didn't make my question clear. Rather, I am asking which of the indicated programs are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service. I've updated my OP.


----------



## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

Someone needs to create a cable company blacklist thread. Many cable companies are incorrectly marking shows as copy protected. Some cable companies (mine) don't mark any copy protected.

In theory, IMO only premium channels should be marked copy protected.


----------



## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

bicker said:


> I'm sorry but I didn't make my question clear. Rather, I am asking which of the indicated programs are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service.


Nothing incorrect about it.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

andyf said:


> In theory, IMO only premium channels should be marked copy protected.


Hmmm.... well that would be nice, but I think that the only requirement is that broadcast HD be free of copy protection. My inquiry though goes to the core of the issue with regard to what the broadcasters intended. Did Animal Planet, for example, intend to copy protect Meerkat Manor, or was that an error (by Animal Planet or by Comcast)?


----------



## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

bicker said:


> Hmmm.... well that would be nice, but I think that the only requirement is that broadcast HD be free of copy protection. My inquiry though goes to the core of the issue with regard to what the broadcasters intended. Did Animal Planet, for example, intend to copy protect Meerkat Manor, or was that an error (by Animal Planet or by Comcast)?


It was intentional and there is nothing we can do about it.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed, there is nothing we can or should do about it if it was intentional. I don't believe that it was, at least not across-the-board for all the items I listed, especially since many of the items are SD, and can be copied off of my S2 -- however, if someone has specific information to the contrary, with regard to the networks or programs I listed, that would be very helpful. Thanks!


----------



## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

bicker said:


> Indeed, there is nothing we can or should do about it if it was intentional. I don't believe that it was, at least not across-the-board for all the items I listed, especially since many of the items are SD, and can be copied off of my S2


That proves nothing -- that's merely the so-called "analog hole" in action. By copying things off your S2, you've been making copies the studios don't want you to make. You certainly have the right to make those copies to permit personal time- and space-shifting use, but regardless of that right, the studios don't want you to make them.

It is naive to expect that DRM bits will be set to permit legitimate copying; rather, they will be set to permit only use consistent with the business models of the distributor.


----------



## naclone (Feb 12, 2002)

is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

naclone said:


> is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?


Select the recording and hit the INFO button. That will tell you if it is copy protected.



bicker said:


> I want to get a jump on addressing any mistakes in copy protection coding before it matters....


If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.

FCC mandate permits cable companies to apply copy protection (CCI 0x02) -- preventing use of TTG and MRV -- on any channel outside of the _limited basic_ tier. In most cases, this is an independent decision by the cable company, but it can also be done at the request of the content provider, some of whom now want some copy protection as part of the contract renewal for their channel(s).

Cable companies are not permitted to copy-protect local channels. If you are not able to use TTG (or MRV) with a recording from a local channel, you should contact your cable provider to have them correct the problem. Tell them they are using a CCI value of 0x02 on their local channels that prevents copying, in violation of federal law.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

naclone said:


> is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?


Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way for future recordings. You only find out after (or during?) the recording is made (started?).

-------------

This is going to be an important subject for us.

We need to know in what circumstances who has the right to decide the flags. When is it only the cable channel, and when can the cable co make a choice to alter it?

Which are the correct settings so we know when there is an error? *Errors do occur, believe it or not*. 

How to fight cases where the cable co adds flags as of right, but you want to convince them to change policy?


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.


Yup, that's where I'm at right now. Almost everything is copy once. It pretty much makes TTG useless.


----------



## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

HDTiVo said:


> Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way for future recordings. You only find out after (or during?) the recording is made (started?).
> 
> -------------
> 
> ...


Such is the plight of early adopters.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.
> 
> FCC mandate permits cable companies ....


Will there be a "new" way for cableCARD based TiVoes to detect flags on analog cable channels, or is this only relevant to digital channels? What about S2s?


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

rodalpho said:


> Yup, that's where I'm at right now. Almost everything is copy once. It pretty much makes TTG useless.


ALso, where is the intermediate option of moving one useable recording around? Its been either copy/duplicate freely or nothin' so far?


----------



## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo. Copying it again to your computer would be copy twice, which doesn't exist.

copy never: PPV only, deletes from your DVR after 90 minutes

copy once: should only be on premium channels, but up to your cable co and there's nothing you can do about it. Cannot be on OTA local channels.

copy freely: OTA local channels and any other channels your cable co allows. TTG works with it.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

sommerfeld said:


> That proves nothing -- that's merely the so-called "analog hole" in action.


Okay, that makes a lot of sense.



sommerfeld said:


> It is naive to expect that DRM bits will be set to permit legitimate copying; rather, they will be set to permit only use consistent with the business models of the distributor.


I think what has me confused is that it isn't consistent within even a distributor: For Discovery networks, Animal Planet is locked down, but sister station Discovery Home is not. For the Turner networks, only some shows are locked down, and that wouldn't surprise me much, except the production companies for two show with different copy protection settings are the same (L&O vs. L&O:SVU)!


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> We need to know in what circumstances who has the right to decide the flags. When is it only the cable channel, and when can the cable co make a choice to alter it?


According to the poster above, only broadcast channels must remain without copy protection. Also, assuming that's the case, I would suspect that networks can, if they wish, forbid copy protection, just as readily as they can require it, in their contracts. Though, if they were to mention it at all, I bet it would be to require it.



HDTiVo said:


> Which are the correct settings so we know when there is an error?


That is precisely the question I'm asking in this thread.  This is one of the few things like this that I've (casually) read is sometimes a mistake.



HDTiVo said:


> How to fight cases where the cable co adds flags as of right, but you want to convince them to change policy?


Unsubscribe and let them know why.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> ALso, where is the intermediate option of moving one useable recording around?


TiVo has announced that they will not support that. For more information on that, please contact TiVo directly.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rodalpho said:


> No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo.


That's actually not the case, but given what I said above, it is effectively the same thing.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

The applicable FCC regs are Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.1904


> *§76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.*
> 
> (a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product.
> 
> ...


(You can find precise definitions of the various business models mentioned above in CFR Title 47, §76.1902). To paraphrase, paragraph (a) states that they cannot prevent copying of stuff which other regulations require to be provided in unencrypted form (basically, any digital channels in the core basic tier, which are the 20 or so channels provided for the smallest charge that you can pay for cable service, which you must buy to get any cable service and which must included all rebroadcast of local channels, analog or digital). Paragraph (b)(1)(i) says that they can set Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand to "Copy Never" and paragraph (b)(1)(ii) says that they can they can set anything else to "Copy One Generation". Paragraph (b)(2) requires that recording devices be allowed to keep an ephemeral up-to-90-minute trick-play buffer of anything, including "Copy Never" (TiVo uses a 30 minute buffer).

So, except for core basic cable (called "limited basic" by some providers), the service providers are allowed to mark everything "Copy One Generation" which TiVo will not copy. At least one person who was in a system where almost everything was being marked Copy One Generation complained to his cable provider and local franchising authority and got action wherein the provider stopped setting things to Copy One Generation except where the content provider specifically requested it (see this post). Supposedly his provider (Comcast) made this the policy nationwide.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both? I can see where TTG would have issues with copy protection, but why would MRV, where the stream remains in TiVo's hands, care?

It seems the usefulness of MRV becomes severely limited if any digital broadcast can be locked out (except OTA).


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

And my area tends to be very much in step with Comcast corporate, so it is looking more and more that the copyright codes on the recordings I listed above are probably accurate reflections of the content owners' wishes. Even if they're internally inconsistent.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both?


This was TTG, I checked. I'll go check MRV, now. However, I didn't see TiVoPony make ANY distinction between the two when he explained how the TiVo would handle copyright protection of digital recordings.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

rodalpho said:


> No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo. Copying it again to your computer would be copy twice, which doesn't exist.
> 
> copy never: PPV only, deletes from your DVR after 90 minutes
> 
> ...


Obviously.

But the missing case of copy once and move that one copy around sticks out. There are four potential flags now, right? Where is that intermediate?


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both? I can see where TTG would have issues with copy protection, but why would MRV, where the stream remains in TiVo's hands, care?
> 
> It seems the usefulness of MRV becomes severely limited if any digital broadcast can be locked out (except OTA).


Both certainly.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bicker said:


> Unsubscribe and let them know why.





bicker said:


> TiVo has announced that they will not support that. For more information on that, please contact TiVo directly.


How could I have thought this might be a serious thread instead of your constant trollism?


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

For TWC Raleigh... everything sourced digitally except locals is flagged x02 and thus copy protected. I spoke with TWC this morning and appealed to them to open up the flagging at least for the digital tier. Cross fingers....

He indicated that other MRV systems didnt do a 'copy' from box to box thus opening up the multiple copy issue. He indicated they streamed from box to box which he viewed as not violating the flags.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Obviously.
> 
> But the missing case of copy once and move that one copy around sticks out. There are four potential flags now, right? Where is that intermediate?


There are four flags: Copy Freely, Copy One Generation, Copy No More and Copy Never. "Copy No More" is a special case that should never be used on content transmitted by a cable provider--it's for marking playback of "Copy One Generation" content when done over protected digital connections which support the flag, like 1394/DTCP.

How content marked with each of these protection modes must be handled is not defined by the FCC, but in the licensing agreements for the various protection mechanisms which support the modes (DTCP, DFAST, CableCARD Host Interface, etc). DFAST and CableCARD host interface licensing agreements allow a special "move" operation to be implemented for Copy One Generation content. Basically, it allows the device to play back the content over a protected digital connection marked Copy One Generation one time, after which the original copy on the source device must be deleted. Since it was transferred marked Copy One Generation, the destination has the same obligations for protecting it and not freely copying it around.

If bicker is right, TiVo is not deigning to support such an operation at this time. I can't say that I blame them--properly protecting a moved Copy One Generation recording on a PC is difficult.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> He indicated that other MRV systems didnt do a 'copy' from box to box thus opening up the multiple copy issue. He indicated they streamed from box to box which he viewed as not violating the flags.


Who is "he"? The cable provider CSR that you spoke with?

Even streaming of Copy One Generation content can only be done over approved secure digital connections. One way that it could be done would be to use DTCP/IP marked "Copy No More", if that's something that the DFAST and CableCARD Host Interface licensing agreements allow.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> There are four flags: Copy Freely, Copy One Generation, Copy No More and Copy Never. "Copy No More" is a special case that should never be used on content transmitted by a cable provider--it's for marking playback of "Copy One Generation" content when done over protected digital connections which support the flag, like 1394/DTCP.
> 
> How content marked with each of these protection modes must be handled is not defined by the FCC, but in the licensing agreements for the various protection mechanisms which support the modes (DTCP, DFAST, CableCARD Host Interface, etc). DFAST and CableCARD host interface licensing agreements allow a special "move" operation to be implemented for Copy One Generation content. Basically, it allows the device to play back the content over a protected digital connection marked Copy One Generation one time, after which the original copy on the source device must be deleted. Since it was transferred marked Copy One Generation, the destination has the same obligations for protecting it and not freely copying it around.
> 
> If bicker is right, TiVo is not deigning to support such an operation at this time. I can't say that I blame them--properly protecting a moved Copy One Generation recording on a PC is difficult.


This is what I'm looking for as that missing intermediate level of CP. Even in the case you state for PC, why not MRV? For PC, maybe a Vista/CC machine could be trusted. The receiver has to be trusted.

Anyway, it is something to keep in mind for the future.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Who is "he"? The cable provider CSR that you spoke with?
> 
> Even streaming of Copy One Generation content can only be done over approved secure digital connections. One way that it could be done would be to use DTCP/IP marked "Copy No More", if that's something that the DFAST and CableCARD Host Interface licensing agreements allow.


No CSR's. Local VP of Network Engineering.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> This is what I'm looking for as that missing intermediate level of CP. Even in the case you state for PC, why not MRV? For PC, maybe a Vista/CC machine could be trusted. The receiver has to be trusted.


It's not an intermediate level--it's just something that the licensing allows to optionally be done with Copy One Generation content. TiVo is not choosing to provide a function to do it at this time.

The spirit of "Copy One Generation" protection is let you make and keep one copy of the marked content. The licensing defines the move operation in an attempt to let you move that one copy to a more convenient place (i.e., from a DVR to permanent removable media, like an HD DVD or Blu-ray disc recorder).


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> It's not an intermediate level--it's just something that the licensing allows to optionally be done with Copy One Generation content. TiVo is not choosing to provide a function to do it at this time.


Or CableLabs wouldn't approve TiVo's DRM for this use. The reason we got even limited MRV and TiVoToGo on the Series 3 and HD is that TiVo didn't touch anything controlled by the reach of CableLabs.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> It's not an intermediate level--it's just something that the licensing allows to optionally be done with Copy One Generation content. TiVo is not choosing to provide a function to do it at this time.
> 
> The spirit of "Copy One Generation" protection is let you make and keep one copy of the marked content. The licensing defines the move operation in an attempt to let you move that one copy to a more convenient place (i.e., from a DVR to permanent removable media, like an HD DVD or Blu-ray disc recorder).


Doesnt the copy you make from Copy One Generation flagged stream assume flagging of Copy No More as it sits on the media?


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> How could I have thought this might be a serious thread instead of your constant trollism?


Absolutely no trolling here. I'm completely and totally serious. My replies, which you quoted, are absolutely on-target and absolute the best advice available.

Your comments, on the other hand, served no constructive purpose whatsoever.


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

As I've mentioned in other threads, I went to my local franchise authority with concerns about copy protection at the beginning of the year and, in the end, Comcast agreed to open up all stations unless specifically requested by the provider -- OnDemand and PPV being understandable exceptions.

Apparently, Encore Movieplex was the only provider to actually request copy protection. All other channels in my Digital Classic lineup -- SD and HD -- are now sent unprotected. From the time they informed me to the actual changed taking place was about 2 weeks. The total process took about 6, if I recall correctly.

At the time I was told that this was to be a Comcast-wide policy... I expect S3 and TiVoHD owners who are also Comcast New England subscribers (or at least Massachusetts, but the engineers I dealt with were out of Nashua, NH) can confirm this is the case for them. I have no idea if the policy has been put into effect elsewhere.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm here in MA, and I see lot of copy protection beyond Encore Movieplex.


----------



## sommerfeld (Feb 26, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> But the missing case of copy once and move that one copy around sticks out.


If you look under the covers to what's actually happening inside the chips, there are no "moves". There are only copies. Lots and lots of copies. Playing back a recording makes transient copies in the DVR's disk's buffers, in the DVR's memory and processor caches, and in the HDTV's memory.

A "move" from one storage device to another is really a "copy and then delete original". (and streaming is just "copy and immediately delete copy"; but any watchable streaming system needs a nontrivial buffer to cope with momentary network hiccups).

Any distributed system will have failure modes in which a "move" either (a) leaves two copies, or (b) destroys or renders inaccessible both copies. When you're trying to build systems that don't lose data you generally opt for (a).


----------



## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

SCSIRAID said:


> For TWC Raleigh... everything sourced digitally except locals is flagged x02 and thus copy protected. I spoke with TWC this morning and appealed to them to open up the flagging at least for the digital tier. Cross fingers....
> 
> He indicated that other MRV systems didnt do a 'copy' from box to box thus opening up the multiple copy issue. He indicated they streamed from box to box which he viewed as not violating the flags.


Thanks for doing this SCSIRAID. I was wondering what Raleigh TWC was doing. Think it will help if I put in a call to them as well?


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

bicker said:


> I'm here in MA, and I see lot of copy protection beyond Encore Movieplex.


That should not be the case. Perhaps the previously given advice is, in fact, not the best. I managed to get traction with Comcast and the local authority by being polite, professional, and informed... educating the cable board... providing examples of how blanket protection was actually against the wishes of the broadcaster.

The engineer I dealt with in NH has since retired... I'm not sure who else I could refer you to.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Doesnt the copy you make from Copy One Generation flagged stream assume flagging of Copy No More as it sits on the media?


The rules specify that it must be stored in an approved secure (i.e. encrypted) form on a recording device and that it be marked as being Copy One Generation. The rules require that, when played back over a secure digital connection which supports it, it be flagged "Copy No More"; no compliant destination for such a connection will make a copy of a "Copy No More" marked stream (which will, of course, be encrypted).

These rules for how to handle Copy One Generation marked content received through a CableCARD are spelled out in the DFAST TECHNOLOGY LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR UNIDIRECTIONAL DIGITAL CABLE PRODUCTS (in Exhibit B, Compliance Rules, starting on PDF page 23) and the CABLECARD HOST INTERFACE LICENSE AGREEMENT (aka CHILA, in Exhibit C, Compliance Rules, starting on PDF page 33).


----------



## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

mikeyts said:


> The rules specify that it must be stored in an approved secure (i.e. encrypted) form on a recording device and that it be marked as being Copy One Generation. The rules require that, when played back over a secure digital connection which supports it, it be flagged "Copy No More"; no compliant destination for such a connection will make a copy of a "Copy No More" marked stream (which will, of course, be encrypted).
> 
> These rules for how to handle Copy One Generation marked content received through a CableCARD are spelled out in the DFAST TECHNOLOGY LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR UNIDIRECTIONAL DIGITAL CABLE PRODUCTS (in Exhibit B, Compliance Rules, starting on PDF page 23) and the CABLECARD-HOST INTERFACE LICENSE AGREEMENT (aka CHILA, in Exhibit C, Compliance Rules, starting on PDF page 33).


So now we need a lawyer to fix our Tivo's.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

sommerfeld said:


> 4A "move" from one storage device to another is really a "copy and then delete original". (and streaming is just "copy and immediately delete copy"; but any watchable streaming system needs a nontrivial buffer to cope with momentary network hiccups).
> 
> Any distributed system will have failure modes in which a "move" either (a) leaves two copies, or (b) destroys or renders inaccessible both copies. When you're trying to build systems that don't lose data you generally opt for (a).


When you're dealing with a system which demands protection of the content being streamed, you opt for (b). Lots of systems which "stream" are only making a permanent cached copy and playing that copy progressively; that would be a no-no for these secure system. (I've actually examined the network cache directories on my PCs and found whole playable copies of things which I "streamed").


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

sommerfeld said:


> If you look under the covers to what's actually happening inside the chips, there are no "moves". There are only copies. Lots and lots of copies. Playing back a recording makes transient copies in the DVR's disk's buffers, in the DVR's memory and processor caches, and in the HDTV's memory.
> 
> A "move" from one storage device to another is really a "copy and then delete original". (and streaming is just "copy and immediately delete copy"; but any watchable streaming system needs a nontrivial buffer to cope with momentary network hiccups).
> 
> Any distributed system will have failure modes in which a "move" either (a) leaves two copies, or (b) destroys or renders inaccessible both copies. When you're trying to build systems that don't lose data you generally opt for (a).


Right, I am just saying that in the space between copy infinite times, which alot of content allows, and don't copy at all - only allow playback on this machine, there is the intermediate of moving a single copy from one device to another - even given the smallish risks that a second copy might endure. That possibility seems to exist for content using the flags, its just not being used at all as far as we've seen so far.

I don't know any reason why lots of content would be available at each end of the spectrum but no content whatsoever would be made available in the middle, or why this middle case might be completely undesireable for all content. Therefore, one might expect to see such content at some point.

Its something to think about for the future.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

sinanju said:


> That should not be the case. Perhaps your previous advice is, in fact, not the best. I managed to get traction with Comcast and the local authority by being polite, professional, and informed... educating the cable board... providing examples of how blanket protection was actually against the wishes of the broadcaster.
> 
> The engineer I dealt with in NH has since retired... I'm not sure who else I could refer you to.


Absolutely; if we share ideas, experience and results constructively and intelligently we will probably get a lot more freer content.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

ncbagwell said:


> Thanks for doing this SCSIRAID. I was wondering what Raleigh TWC was doing. Think it will help if I put in a call to them as well?


Cant hurt....

My call went very well with them. They are looking into it. I didnt get any pushback... in fact quite the opposite. The concern was what the agreements with the content providers require.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Joybob said:


> So now we need a lawyer to fix our Tivo's.


No, you need to buy a congressman or 400. They're cheaper than a lawyer when you buy one at a time, but in volume it gets really expensive.

Or you could buy all the cable companies and get CableLabs to have that stick in their a$# get the stick out of its a$# and have more reasonable restrictions on moving content.


----------



## Dark Helmet (Sep 15, 2006)

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that bicker, the Great Defender of DRM, is the one who started this thread?  

(Here in Cox NoVa I've noticed that most shows are copy protected. Notable exception: new episodes of MythBusters (yes, the repeats are copy protected). Does that even make any sense?)


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

sommerfeld said:


> That proves nothing -- that's merely the so-called "analog hole" in action. By copying things off your S2, you've been making copies the studios don't want you to make. You certainly have the right to make those copies to permit personal time- and space-shifting use, but regardless of that right, the studios don't want you to make them.
> 
> It is naive to expect that DRM bits will be set to permit legitimate copying; rather, they will be set to permit only use consistent with the business models of the distributor.


So I'm considering switching to digital cable with cablecards..

Is this a bad idea? I'm pretty happy with analog but it's missing some channels..


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Dark Helmet said:


> Am I the only one who finds it amusing that bicker, the Great Defender of DRM, is the one who started this thread?
> 
> (Here in Cox NoVa I've noticed that most shows are copy protected. Notable exception: new episodes of MythBusters (yes, the repeats are copy protected). Does that even make any sense?)


At least in N. VA you have a choice.

In N. VA, you can switch to FiOS which doesn't copy-protect any non-premium channels.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> At least in N. VA you have a choice.
> 
> In N. VA, you can switch to FiOS which doesn't copy-protect any non-premium channels.


Judging by the TiVo Desktop pictures you've been posting (like the one here), even some premium channels are unprotected, like HBO HD.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

A TiVo offficial talked a couple months ago about a group being started to target problems between cable co and TiVo users, such as getting cableCARD issues resolved properly.

This group could also be potentially helpful in resolving errors related to copy flags and perhaps even advocate on behalf of TiVo users for less flag use. Let's ask TiVo if they would do that for us.



Dark Helmet said:


> Am I the only one who finds it amusing that bicker, the Great Defender of DRM, is the one who started this thread?


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

bicker said:


> Which of the programs indicated below are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service.
> 
> I'm seeing is the following programs Copy Protected:
> 
> ...


It Varies among Cable Co's

The following shows you list as being copy protected are NOT copy protected on my TiVo.

- TNT HD - Law & Order

Any of the Broadcast Network HD shows. (ABC, FOX, NBC, CBS, CW, PBS)

None of the shows on my animal planet, TLC, or Discovery (including HD)

None of our Sci-Fi.

Torchwood on BBCA & HDNET IS Copy protected...

ALL of HBO HD is Copy protected.

TGC


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

mikeyts said:


> Judging by the TiVo Desktop pictures you've been posting (like the one here), even some premium channels are unprotected, like HBO HD.


Ssshhh.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Dark Helmet said:


> Am I the only one who finds it amusing that bicker, the Great Defender of DRM, is the one who started this thread?


It shouldn't be that amusing really (unless you didn't *read* my messages). I want to know what the content owner *intended*, and then if someone has done something that the content owner didn't want, I would want to let them know so they can get it fixed.


----------



## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

TexasGrillChef said:


> It Varies among Cable Co's
> 
> The following shows you list as being copy protected are NOT copy protected on my TiVo.
> 
> ...


For me on Comcast, nothing is copy protected. Premium channels, HD channels, all are available for transfer.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> At least in N. VA you have a choice.
> 
> In N. VA, you can switch to FiOS which doesn't copy-protect any non-premium channels.


My premium channels aren't even copy protected. I can move all shows from FIOS freely to the PC or another box. This applies to all my channels. Unlike Comcast which seems to be inconsitent. Some shows from premium channels are protected and some aren't and then you have shows like, Law and Order on TNT-HD that are protected and other shows aren't.


----------



## bown (Nov 4, 2006)

Hey, I'll bet that nobody has noticed this yet...

The 6 original intro tivo videos are copy protected. You can't transfer them.

Why would you want to? Well, it was late last night by the time I got my a,a,a status, and it was the smallest recording I could find to test the transfer.

Why do I still have them? Well, with 1 gig of tivo storage, why delete anything?


----------



## bananaman (Jul 18, 2005)

bown said:


> Why do I still have them? Well, with 1 gig of tivo storage, why delete anything?


Wow! Only 1 gig of tivo storage and you still have the original intro tivo videos? You must really like them!


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bown said:


> Hey, I'll bet that nobody has noticed this yet...
> 
> The 6 original intro tivo videos are copy protected. You can't transfer them.
> 
> ...


Darn... you need a bigger harddrive.... 1 Gig drives went out like 10-12 years ago.


----------



## bown (Nov 4, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> Darn... you need a bigger harddrive.... 1 Gig drives went out like 10-12 years ago.


DAMNIT!! I made the same stupid mistake as someone in another thread. What I meant was 1TB of storage.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

bown said:


> DAMNIT!! I made the same stupid mistake as someone in another thread. What I meant was 1TB of storage.


I used to do that all the time....


----------



## Dark Helmet (Sep 15, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> At least in N. VA you have a choice.
> 
> In N. VA, you can switch to FiOS which doesn't copy-protect any non-premium channels.


Sadly, FiOS is not available at my house. Maybe someday ...


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm very happy with TTG, not one recording was copy protected!

WooHoo!


----------



## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Dark Helmet said:


> Am I the only one who finds it amusing that bicker, the Great Defender of DRM, is the one who started this thread?
> 
> (Here in Cox NoVa I've noticed that most shows are copy protected. Notable exception: new episodes of MythBusters (yes, the repeats are copy protected). Does that even make any sense?)


Cox Nova is all over the map with their flagging. I've got several UHD, Discovery HD, SciFi, and analog Discovery channel recordings that are not copy protected, while other recordings of the same series (e.g., Dirty Jobs, Stargate Atlantis) are flagged. And *every* episode of Oprah and Dr. Phil that my wife records from the ANALOG ABC and FOX affiliate feeds is protected (Cox remaps the analog feed to a different channel on their digital tier).


----------



## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Dark Helmet said:


> Sadly, FiOS is not available at my house. Maybe someday ...


Same here. Availability is much more limited than Verizon would have the world believe.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bown said:


> Hey, I'll bet that nobody has noticed this yet...
> 
> The 6 original intro tivo videos are copy protected. You can't transfer them.
> 
> ...


This first thing I did after setup when I first booted my boxes was to delete those.


----------



## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

SCSIRAID said:


> Cant hurt....
> 
> My call went very well with them. They are looking into it. I didnt get any pushback... in fact quite the opposite. The concern was what the agreements with the content providers require.


Would be nice for HDNET Movies to be opened up.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> This first thing I did after setup when I first booted my boxes was to delete those.


Carefull.... you wouldnt want to hurt TivoShanans feelings...


----------



## Dark Helmet (Sep 15, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> No CSR's. Local VP of Network Engineering.


How did you get the number of the local VP of Network Engineering? C'mon, tell us the secret so we can bug our local franchises!


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Dark Helmet said:


> How did you get the number of the local VP of Network Engineering? C'mon, tell us the secret so we can bug our local franchises!


If you go to your local TWC website.... you will see an 'About Us' tab. In that dropdown is the Local Executive Management Team along with their email. I started with the division president who directed me to him.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/aboutus/executivemanagementteam/teamlist.html?menu=12136


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Everything I recorded on HBO HD and HD Net Movies is marked as copy once. Everything I recorded from a typical "network" channel (Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, etc) is copy freely. So far atleast.

This is in Louisville, KY on Insight Cable.

edit: Specific shows I can transfer include Heroes, Journeyman, Reaper, Smallville, Supernatural, My Name is Early, How I Met Your Mother, Bionicwoman, House M.D., Numbers, Friday Night Lights


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

andyf said:


> For me on Comcast, nothing is copy protected. Premium channels, HD channels, all are available for transfer.


WHAAAATTTTT???

Andy...I noticed you're in Houston too. I was checking last night, now that I have 9.2, and find LOTS of copy protected shows. I am also Comcast Houston. DiscHD, HDNet, HBO...all protected. Even the Military Channel (some great shows on SEAL training) is protected.

Maybe they don't trust me?


----------



## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

astrohip said:


> WHAAAATTTTT???
> 
> Andy...I noticed you're in Houston too. I was checking last night, now that I have 9.2, and find LOTS of copy protected shows. I am also Comcast Houston. DiscHD, HDNet, HBO...all protected. Even the Military Channel (some great shows on SEAL training) is protected.
> 
> Maybe they don't trust me?


Or maybe since it's the fall season, most of what I record right now is OTA. However, Damages on FX, Dexter on SHOHD, Weeds on SHOHD, Californication on SHOHD, Torchwood on HDNET, StarGate Atlantis on SciFi are all unprotected.

Actually I'm in Spring but still ComCast Houston. I wonder if they have multiple headends for different locations?


----------



## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sinanju said:


> At the time I was told that this was to be a Comcast-wide policy... I expect S3 and TiVoHD owners who are also Comcast New England subscribers (or at least Massachusetts, but the engineers I dealt with were out of Nashua, NH) can confirm this is the case for them. I have no idea if the policy has been put into effect elsewhere.


Just for some local feedback, I am prevented from transferring any and all movies I have recorded off of SHO & HBO to my other S3. I am in the area you speak of, Comcast/NE. I have not gone through all of my "Now Playing List", but I can see a red slashed "0" on every movie.


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

pl1 said:


> Just for some local feedback, I am prevented from transferring any and all movies I have recorded off of SHO & HBO to my other S3. I am in the area you speak of, Comcast/NE. I have not gone through all of my "Now Playing List", but I can see a red slashed "0" on every movie.


That doesn't surprise me. I was told that premium content -- pay channels -- would remain protected. HBO has demanded copy protection for some time now, even in the analog world.


----------



## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

sinanju said:


> That doesn't surprise me. I was told that premium content -- pay channels -- would remain protected. HBO has demanded copy protection for some time now, even in the analog world.


Oh, OK, I thought that you were saying only Encore Movieplex had requested copy protection. And I guess I assumed they were included with premium content, although, I guess they are now included with the digital package for free.

"Apparently, Encore Movieplex was the only provider to actually request copy protection."


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

pl1 said:


> Oh, OK, I thought that you were saying only Encore Movieplex had requested copy protection. And I guess I assumed they were included with premium content, although, I guess they are now included with the digital package for free.
> 
> "Apparently, Encore Movieplex was the only provider to actually request copy protection."


I have no pay channels. I was referring strictly to the Digital Classic lineup.


----------



## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

It seems all content that comes through the cable cards is copy protected here. TWC in Southeast WI.

I just e-mailed their help desk. I'm not exactly optimistic about getting anything changed though.


----------



## gear (Oct 1, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> Select the recording and hit the INFO button. That will tell you if it is copy protected.


Where does it tell you? I selected a recording and hit the INFO button but don't see anything that says "copy protected". I see a symbol of a padlock that is unlocked; is that what you mean?


----------



## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

gear said:


> Where does it tell you? I selected a recording and hit the INFO button but don't see anything that says "copy protected". I see a symbol of a padlock that is unlocked; is that what you mean?


You're looking at the channel banner (that padlock is for parental controls). He meant go to the Program Details screen on the Now Playing List and _then_ press Info.


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

windracer said:


> You're looking at the channel banner (that padlock is for parental controls). He meant go to the Program Details screen on the Now Playing List and _then_ press Info.


If it is copy protected you will get the message between the "Content Rating" and "Rating" fields on the info screen. If it is not protected there will be no message.

Comcast in Pittsburgh seems to be doing a good job. The only copy protected material I can find is from the Premium channels.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

gear said:


> Where does it tell you? I selected a recording and hit the INFO button but don't see anything that says "copy protected". I see a symbol of a padlock that is unlocked; is that what you mean?


By "select a recording" he meant that you should go to the Now Playing list, navigate to a specific entry and hit the OK button first to see the description, then hit INFO. You'll get a dialog entitled "Program Details" that may or may not have that notification on it.

An easier way to see is to set up TiVo Desktop and look at the Pick Recordings To Transfer dialog. There'll be little red slashed circles on every copy protected recording.

I've 30 recent recordings; of those, 7 are copy protected, 2 of which were Amazon Unbox downloads. The other 5 are 2 episodes of _Californication_, one of _Dexter_ and two recordings from the Sci Fi Channel. Thankfully, 90% or more of my television watching is network TV.

I've also got 16 recordings of the HBO's _Addiction_ series that I've been meaning to record onto DVD for my housemate, who is a professional addiction recovery councelor. I'd truly love it if I could transfer that stuff . Making the DVDs in realtime using an analog DVD recorder is a chore that I've obviously been ducking.


----------



## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

This is what Brighthouse (Tampa Bay) sent me in response to an inquiry about copy protection.



> The copyright protection is added and chosen by the broadcast
> channel. Bright House has no control over which programs are protected. If you
> have any further question, we are available 24 hours a day. Thank you for being
> a Bright House customer.


That's not right, is it? I'm not sure they understood my question.


----------



## rbienstock (May 8, 2007)

Joybob said:


> Nothing incorrect about it.


Maybe, maybe not. The OP said that Firefly on UHD was flagged on his machine. It is most definitely copyable on my machine, so maybe this is a cable company decision/error?


----------



## cr33p (Jan 2, 2005)

Im in Ann Arbor MI on Comcast and havent found a single show yet that isnt able to be copied  Although I dont have HBO and Showtime, I wouldnt be to optimistic that I could transfer them anyhow


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

windracer said:


> This is what Brighthouse (Tampa Bay) sent me in response to an inquiry about copy protection.
> 
> That's not right, is it? I'm not sure they understood my question.


It's absolutely not right. Whereas I'm certain that various content providers include copy protection flags in their digital transponder feeds, the cable system's equipment has to aggregate those feeds into transport streams. When they make those transport streams, I'm sure that the equipment allows them to copy the original copy protections into their streams' Conditional Access Table loops, but I'm equally sure that they can choose not to copy them and to override them with whatever values that they want. I don't think that FCC regulations exist which control how they handle this, just regulations which control the maximum amount of protection which can be applied depending on the business model through which a particular channel is sold. Those regs are based on an attempt to make sure that the public is allowed to timeshift as much cable television as possible; in no way are they trying to facilitate your ability to archive television recordings or to move them around for your convenience. As written, they allow you to timeshift everything except for Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand channels and disallow the application of any copy protection to core basic cable broadcasts, which must include any rebroadcast local television.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

windracer said:


> This is what Brighthouse (Tampa Bay) sent me in response to an inquiry about copy protection. ... That's not right, is it? I'm not sure they understood my question.


They probably did, and probably just provided you a statement of their policy, because that's all the folks you wrote to have access to. If you want to pursue a constructive resolution to your concern, you should write to the networks now, reporting your concern. You'll probably get a response back from them saying, "No, we're not copy protecting everything." Or perhaps they'll say that it is up to the producers of the program, in which case you'll have to work your way up that way. Anyway, once you have all the responses from all the parties, you can start to use these responses in discussions with those downstream. If the network says that there shouldn't be copy protection and the service provider says that they only apply copy protection if the network says to, then you can go back to the service provider and report that as a problem, and have them fix it, because you can show them that it is a mistake. You could try to track down the folks inside the service providers who have that information but that will probably take longer.

I have been thinking about doing this, but I don't really have the time.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

windracer said:


> This is what Brighthouse (Tampa Bay) sent me in response to an inquiry about copy protection.
> 
> That's not right, is it? I'm not sure they understood my question.





mikeyts said:


> It's absolutely not right.


Absolutely is such a final word, and in this case not very accurate. From a purely technical point of view, Brighthouse certainly "controls" the copy protection, but it is entirely possible that from a contract or policy view Brighthouse has no say in the matter. If the content owner demands the copy protection flag then Brighthouse has no control over that. The only folks who can't request copy protection flags at all are broadcast networks. The only folks who can request the most restrictive copy protection are PPV and onDemand channels.

I read the Brighthouse response to say that the content providers are the ultimate arbiters of whether their channel gets copy protection or not.


----------



## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

SCSIRAID said:


> If you go to your local TWC website.... you will see an 'About Us' tab. In that dropdown is the Local Executive Management Team along with their email. I started with the division president who directed me to him.
> 
> http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/aboutus/executivemanagementteam/teamlist.html?menu=12136


SCSIRAID - Did that VP of Network Engineering know what you were looking for/talking about? I talked to a CSR at TWC-Raleigh today and they were clueless. However, she said she was going to push this up the chain of command to get me an answer. If I don't hear from them in a day or two, I'll try your route. Maybe if this person hears it from a couple of different sources, he'll make the change. I'll let you know if I hear back from them.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bicker said:


> It shouldn't be that amusing really (unless you didn't *read* my messages). I want to know what the content owner *intended*, and then if someone has done something that the content owner didn't want, I would want to let them know so they can get it fixed.


I would like to know the same thing. How do we go about finding this out? Are there any resources elsewhere on the web?

Basically the only answers I find in the forum are "It varies between providers", but I assume that the original copyright holders (which I assume are the cable channels) should have some say in this, no?


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

As I indicated earlier, we need to be willing to chase the information down. Start with the service provider. They'll typically pass the buck to the network. So inquire at each network. They may pass the buck back to a production company, but generally not. Gather up all the responses, and find the conflicts: Program X on Network Y is protected. Service Provider Z says it is up to Network Y. Network Y says none of their stuff should be protected. NOW you have enough information to go back to Service Provider Z and show them that there is a problem. You may have to escalate it, politely, assertively, and persistently, to get action.

Is it worth the effort? That's really up to you. I'm not there yet. So far, the only show I'm upset about is Meerkat Manor. I can adjust.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

pkscout said:


> Absolutely is such a final word, and in this case not very accurate. From a purely technical point of view, Brighthouse certainly "controls" the copy protection, but it is entirely possible that from a contract or policy view Brighthouse has no say in the matter. If the content owner demands the copy protection flag then Brighthouse has no control over that. The only folks who can't request copy protection flags at all are broadcast networks. The only folks who can request the most restrictive copy protection are PPV and onDemand channels.
> 
> I read the Brighthouse response to say that the content providers are the ultimate arbiters of whether their channel gets copy protection or not.


Your reading is an interpretation. If you read the statement "Bright House has no control over which programs are protected" literally, then it _is_ absolutely wrong--they are the only people with control of what goes out on their system, and whether they exercise that control to honor contract agreements is another matter, but that's not what they said. They way that they stated made it sound as though it was completely out of their control, when it isn't. It's quite possible that, even if they're trying to replicate the copy protection in the content providers' streams, they don't have things set up to do that right.


----------



## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

ncbagwell said:


> SCSIRAID - Did that VP of Network Engineering know what you were looking for/talking about? I talked to a CSR at TWC-Raleigh today and they were clueless. However, she said she was going to push this up the chain of command to get me an answer. If I don't hear from them in a day or two, I'll try your route. Maybe if this person hears it from a couple of different sources, he'll make the change. I'll let you know if I hear back from them.


Absolutely. He is very very technical. He is also into Media Center PC and understands exactly why the flags should be copy freely. He couldnt understand why anyone would consider something lile 'Mr Ed' to be 'High Value' content requiring protection  especially when network stuff is copy freely and does have value when you consider sales of series DVD's.

CSR's by definition are clueless....  (now that wasnt nice was it....)


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

When I was dealing with Comcast in my area, I was told the head end equipment serving my neighborhood was all or nothing for digital cable. There was no way for them to honor whatever the content provider might want for content protection on individual programming. The CCI was going to be set for a channel and that was that -- it was a manual process and once done, it was done.

That was from my regional engineer. YMMV. Given the nature of the MSOs, I think the answer is going to be different for every neighborhood represented here.


----------



## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

bicker said:


> As I indicated earlier, we need to be willing to chase the information down. Start with the service provider. They'll typically pass the buck to the network. So inquire at each network. They may pass the buck back to a production company, but generally not.


If I suspected my cable company wasn't following proper procedure, I'd start checking programs that have educational taping rights. I imagine the upstream will be more eager to help straighten out those cases. If the cable company is blindly flagging everything on the channel, then you won't be able to copy those programs as you should be able to.

You can go to http://www.ciconline.org/search-listings and search there.

Maybe it isn't practical, but that's where I'd start.


----------



## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Rucker said:


> If I suspected my cable company wasn't following proper procedure, I'd start checking programs that have educational taping rights.


So I checked out the cable in the classroom stuff, but unfortunately for my case, all of the programming is on the analog channels, which isn't copy protected. I wasn't able to find a show that aired on a channel in the digital tier. 

Good idea though ...


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

windracer said:


> So I checked out the cable in the classroom stuff, but unfortunately for my case, all of the programming is on the analog channels, which isn't copy protected. I wasn't able to find a show that aired on a channel in the digital tier.
> 
> Good idea though ...


I was lucky that Discovery Health (DHC) was in my digital tier...

In fact, for those of you with premium channel protection, HBO and other premium channels have CiC programming...


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

sinanju said:


> I was lucky that Discovery Health (DHC) was in my digital tier...
> 
> In fact, for those of you with premium channel protection, HBO and other premium channels have CiC programming...


I looked at the listings for stuff that's on HBO and lots of those listings on the CiC site (like this one, for a documentary on the AIDS epidemic in Uganda) have the following after the "Educational taping rights" heading:


> This program is restricted and may not be taped and used in the classroom.


Just because it's labeled "Cable In the Classroom" doesn't mean that the content provider grants free and unlimited use of it. See their discussion of Copyright & Recording Guidelines. Note that, if you have a removable media digital recorder, like a D-VHS deck and the coming HD DVD and Blu-ray recorders, Copy One Generation protection won't stop you from using such to make a copy on removable media; what it will stop you from doing is making further copies of that recording. (That page on copyright at CiC's site has a link to "The Educator's Guide to Copyright and Fair Use", which is also quite interesting).


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> Just because it's labeled "Cable In the Classroom" doesn't mean that the content provider grants free and unlimited use of it.


That may be true for the program you looked at, but if you check the box "Extended Taping Rights" and do an otherwise unbounded search you will find that HBO has several airings of "What is Addiction?" over the next month and the licensing associated with that is, "May be taped and used in the classroom for one year."


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

sinanju said:


> That may be true for the program you looked at, but if you check the box "Extended Taping Rights" and do an otherwise unbounded search you will find that HBO has several airings of "What is Addiction?" over the next month and the licensing associated with that is, "May be taped and used in the classroom for one year."


Yes, I did see those (though most of the stuff that CiC lists on HBO has the warning I quoted above). Notice that nothing prevents you from _taping_ it. Even with TiVo, you can make a analog copy of the recording using "Save To VCR"--I know, I saved all of the HBO _Addiction_ series to TiVo and have copied a couple of them onto disc over an S-video connection for my housemate, who is a professional addiction recovery councelor.

Nothing prevents you from making a single recording at air time onto the media of your choice; even if you made your single copy on your TiVo, nothing prevents you from unhooking it and carrying it to a classroom to play the episode back during a lecture.


----------



## micro98 (Jan 5, 2005)

Looks like all show that use the cablecard to decode are protected via TWC
you local HD channels are in the clear so the do not need a cablecard and all your analog 2-98 are free to copy.


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> Nothing prevents you from making a single recording at air time onto the media of your choice; even if you made your single copy on your TiVo, nothing prevents you from unhooking it and carrying it to a classroom to play the episode back during a lecture.


Nothing prevents me from making a copy on a series of still photographs, frame-by-frame, that I flip in front of the children while reading the script.

Copy protecting that content violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the license and VCRs are, in effect, obsolete -- you can't even buy an analog TV at Best Buy anymore. And, in any event, if you look at the message on your TiVo associated with copy protected content, you'll see that your TiVo isn't even supposed to let you save it to a VCR.

As I said, the fact that such programming exists and should not be protected was an *effective* argument with both my local franchise authority and Comcast.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

sinanju said:


> Nothing prevents me from making a copy on a series of still photographs, frame-by-frame, that I flip in front of the children while reading the script.
> 
> Copy protecting that content violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the license and VCRs are, in effect, obsolete -- you can't even buy an analog TV at Best Buy anymore. And, in any event, if you look at the message on your TiVo associated with copy protected content, you'll see that your TiVo isn't even supposed to let you save it to a VCR.
> 
> As I said, the fact that such programming exists and should not be protected was an *effective* argument with both my local franchise authority and Comcast.


I realize that it was an effective argument in your case, but in reality, had they chosen to ignore you, I think that they legally could have. Your franchising authority and Comcast were just being reasonable and I hope every cable company and franchising authority might be as reasonable, but if it ever came to court, as an argument to forcing content providers to unlock their stuff it's a non-starter.

"Copy One Generation" protection does nothing to interfere with Cable In The Classroom program, for which it only matters that _teachers_ be able to make a copy that they can get to their classroom and use. Not that they be able to do it in the most handy and convenient way, but that they be able to do it, period.

HBO/Cinemax is a strong believer in copy protection; they apply Copy One Generation to the linear channels in their tiers on _analog_ outputs and Copy Never to their Video On Demand channels--see their HBO Application of CGMS-A Copyright Protection FAQ. If pressed on the matter of those permissions granted to educators, they'd probably freely hand out copies of that stuff to teachers on disc or tape by request, or change that statement of permission, or remove the content from their line-up and stop paying to produce any future educational material. They would not remove the protections from the movies and original fiction series that they broadcast just to let teachers freely copy documentaries.


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> I realize that it was an effective argument in your case, but in reality, had they chosen to ignore you, I think that they legally could have. Your franchising authority and Comcast were just being reasonable and I hope every cable company and franchising authority might be as reasonable, but if it ever came to court, as an argument to forcing content providers to unlock their stuff it's a non-starter.
> 
> "Copy One Generation" protection does nothing to interfere with Cable In The Classroom program, for which it only matters that _teachers_ be able to make a copy that they can get to their classroom and use. Not that they be able to do it in the most handy and convenient way, but that they be able to do it, period.
> 
> HBO/Cinemax is a strong believer in copy protection; they apply Copy One Generation to the linear channels in their tiers on _analog_ outputs and Copy Never to their Video On Demand channels--see their HBO Application of CGMS-A Copyright Protection FAQ. If pressed on the matter of those permissions granted to educators, they'd probably freely hand out copies of that stuff to teachers on disc or tape by request, or change that statement of permission, or remove the content from their line-up and stop paying to produce any future educational material. They would not remove the protections from the movies and original fiction series that they broadcast just to let teachers freely copy documentaries.


I agree with everything you said there, except the bit about copy one generation, which I have never heard anyone report they have ever seen in the wild. Nobody uses it or appears to want to use it.

I also believe that HBO pulling CiC programming over copy protection would be newsworthy. The completely inconsistent and unworkable mess we see now is only going to change once people realize what's going on and how it affects them -- and then calls and writes everyone involved to put one more little bit of pressure on them. And, in the meantime, some will benefit from the inconsistencies and the unworkable nature, as I have.

But, not calling or writing benefits no one but the cable operator.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

To be fair, so far, this really doesn't affect the vast majority of folks. For me, this has only affected a service which I've lived without for months, after having it for a year or two, and didn't miss. I doubt this will have any real impact on the general public at-large until at least 20% of the DVR burners sold in the country are HD-DVD burners.

Without commenting on whether folks should or shouldn't call or write, assuming that calling and writing is as pointless as some have suggested, not calling or writing *does* benefit the person who would have called or would have written, saving them time and energy that would have been otherwise wasted, and also saving them the aggravation associate with having put forth effort to no avail. Just sayin'...


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I still believe that the most effective vehicle for change is to try and educate your Franchise Authority of the problem and have them contact the cable company. I'm slightly prejudiced in that I used to serve on that authority locally and the current chairman isa friend of mine. We do not have the problem here (Comcast only protects Premium channels), but we are attempting tohave it formalized in the next Franchise Agreement (May 2008), basically stating that Comcast will be no more restrictive than required by the content providers.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jrm01 said:


> I still believe that the most effective vehicle for change is to try and educate your Franchise Authority of the problem and have them contact the cable company. I'm slightly prejudiced in that I used to serve on that authority locally and the current chairman isa friend of mine. We do not have the problem here (Comcast only protects Premium channels), but we are attempting tohave it formalized in the next Franchise Agreement (May 2008), basically stating that Comcast will be no more restrictive than required by the content providers.


That's a pretty powerful approach. Maybe even better than utter futility. 

Does anyone have HDNET/HDNETMovies w/o copy flags on their system?


----------



## andyf (Feb 23, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> That's a pretty powerful approach. Maybe even better than utter futility.
> 
> Does anyone have HDNET/HDNETMovies w/o copy flags on their system?


I do. Comcast Houston, for me, does not copy protect anything. AstroHip however, is also Comcast Houston and is reporting copy protected channels. This I don't understand unless there are multiple headends.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

andyf said:


> I do. Comcast Houston, for me, does not copy protect anything. AstroHip however, is also Comcast Houston and is reporting copy protected channels. This I don't understand unless there are multiple headends.


This morning I sent an email to several HDNET executives describing the situation and asking for their policy and help. I identified my cable system and alerted them to the general fact that MRV went live this week and the issue would be nationwide.

Another thing I will do is contact the Town Board's committee which deals with my cable company to see if and when they might be able to get involved in influencing the flag choices for all digital channels.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

sinanju said:


> I agree with everything you said there, except the bit about copy one generation, which I have never heard anyone report they have ever seen in the wild. Nobody uses it or appears to want to use it.


Copy One Generation _is_ 0x02 Copy Control, what the FCC allows to be applied to nearly everything and what everyone's complaining about. "Copy No More" is exclusively for playback of "Copy One Generation" and the FCC only allows "Copy Never" protection to be applied to Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand. TiVo will not make a recording of "Copy Never" marked content; by the encoding rules, it can only be stored ephemerally in a trick-play buffer.


> I also believe that HBO pulling CiC programming over copy protection would be newsworthy.


Might be, but I doubt that they'd make any public announcement about it. If their documentary content disappeared and someone was weird enough to allege that it was because of the copy protection issue they could deny it and say that they'd decided that production of documentaries was no longer in their best interest. They wouldn't have to remove it anyway--they need only rescind the permission to use it in the classroom. It's not as though there was a huge amount--CiC only knows about HBO programming for the next month, and only lists 4 programs (2 airing twice, for a total of 6 CiC-recommended broadcasts for the month), only one of which grants extended educational recording rights. 


> The completely inconsistent and unworkable mess we see now is only going to change once people realize what's going on and how it affects them -- and then calls and writes everyone involved to put one more little bit of pressure on them. And, in the meantime, some will benefit from the inconsistencies and the unworkable nature, as I have.


As bicker points out, it's not unworkable. Temporarily, the most easily available recording devices for digital television are DVRs (and some unweildy, relatively expensive D-VHS decks), so it's not possible to easily and conveniently archive Copy One Generation stuff, but HD DVD and Blu-ray recorders are coming. Even in this situation, the truly devoted early adopter television "archivists" have been stockpiling recordings of copy protected HD television for years on D-VHS tape.


> But, not calling or writing benefits no one but the cable operator.


I'm not suggesting that people not call and write; cable providers around the nation are frankly over-using Copy One Generation, applying it to every digital channel not in their core basic tier, which is typically every non-local-broadcast digital channel. FCC regulations allow this, but it may well not be what all of their content providers want. All I was saying (in response to your pointing out that CiC is listing some HBO programming) is that _some_ cable content providers, like HBO/Cinemax, very much _do_ want copy protection blanketly applied to their content, and aren't afraid to publicly defend their stance on the matter. All of this complex copy protection stuff wasn't built into the standards and Federal regulations for grins and chuckles; it was to mollify the concerns of premium content broadcasters like HBO/Cinemax.

In the end, the only thing that Copy One Generation protection prevents is making copies of recordings, not making recordings of the original broadcast. That's all it was designed to prevent. This inconveniences relatively few people and fewer still in the near future when we'll have HD video disc recorders.


----------



## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Does anyone have HDNET/HDNETMovies w/o copy flags on their system?


Well this is weird ... I have a few Torchwood recordings from HDNet and one doesn't have the copy-protection flag on!  Everything else from HDNet is protected.


----------



## rickeame (Jan 3, 2002)

So this pretty much means I can't support the scenario I want with Tivo and have to rethink. Argh. I hate being tethered to one tv room for my shows. The only way this is going to work now is for me to get an expensive vista media center box with OCUR, and us my 360's as extenders. 

If tivo would simply stream the video instead of copy it from tivo to tivo, we wouldn't have this problem with copy protection. TTG would still be hosed, but MRV would work as one would expect it to.

Or I can just use bittorrent. Note to the entertainment industry: I don't want to illegally copy your programs that I paid for on my tivo box, but you're forcing me to because of your rampant paranoia.


----------



## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

mikeyts said:


> Temporarily, the most easily available recording devices for digital television are DVRs (and some unweildy, relatively expensive D-VHS decks), so it's not possible to easily and conveniently archive Copy One Generation stuff, but HD DVD and Blu-ray recorders are coming. Even in this situation, the truly devoted early adopter television "archivists" have been stockpiling recordings of copy protected HD television for years on D-VHS tape.


If devices are working as they should, and presumably Cable Labs approved TiVoes do, this is not an issue.


----------



## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

windracer said:


> Well this is weird ... I have a few Torchwood recordings from HDNet and one doesn't have the copy-protection flag on!  Everything else from HDNet is protected.


And Torchwood is copy protected for me off of BBC America.



rickeame said:


> Note to the entertainment industry: ...


 WARNING: Rationalization Alert!!!!


----------



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

mikeyts said:


> Copy One Generation _is_ 0x02 Copy Control.


My error. I thought you were referring to 0x01... I seem to frequently confuse the terms. I'll stand by the rest of what I said.



mikeyts said:


> In the end, the only thing that Copy One Generation protection prevents is making copies of recordings, not making recordings of the original broadcast. That's all it was designed to prevent. This inconveniences relatively few people and fewer still in the near future when we'll have HD video disc recorders.


And people like me, who travel, and just want to pop a few episodes of their favorite show onto a laptop to watch on a long flight.


----------



## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Tivo's MRV seems very stupid when they move a recording to another machine instead of simply streaming to the other Tivo. Maybe i misunderstand or there are hardware limitations where the Tivo cannot record using the tuners while also simultaneously streaming to another tuner because of its limited horsepower??? Streaming would allow random access, immediate playback, ffw/rw, etc...

I am hooking up my first S3 tonight and ordering a second unit this weekend now that TTG / MRV is enabled. Hoooooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

qz3fwd said:


> Tivo's MRV seems very stupid when they move a recording to another machine instead of simply streaming to the other Tivo. Maybe i misunderstand or there are hardware limitations where the Tivo cannot record using the tuners while also simultaneously streaming to another tuner because of its limited horsepower??? Streaming would allow random access, immediate playback, ffw/rw, etc...
> 
> I am hooking up my first S3 tonight and ordering a second unit this weekend now that TTG / MRV is enabled. Hoooooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm sure Tivo will look at a "moving" option for a future version of their software.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

qz3fwd said:


> Tivo's MRV seems very stupid when they move a recording to another machine instead of simply streaming to the other Tivo. Maybe i misunderstand or there are hardware limitations where the Tivo cannot record using the tuners while also simultaneously streaming to another tuner because of its limited horsepower??? Streaming would allow random access, immediate playback, ffw/rw, etc...


True streaming of 16-18 Mbps content is a pretty bandwidth intensive operation for a home LAN; you're sure as hell not likely to successfully do it over 11G, theoretical peak transfer rates be damned--way too much latency. File transfer with progressive playback is a lot easier to manage.

I can't even get streaming playback of 8 Mbps MPEG4 clips to my Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 to work over wireless G, one reason why I wired all of my toys directly to the router.


----------



## Islanti (Dec 13, 2001)

mikeyts said:


> True streaming of 16-18 Mbps content is a pretty bandwidth intensive operation for a home LAN; you're sure as hell not likely to successfully do it over 11G, theoretical peak transfer rates be damned--way too much latency. File transfer with progressive playback is a lot easier to manage.
> 
> I can't even get streaming playback of 8 Mbps MPEG4 clips to my Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 to work over wireless G, one reason why I wired all of my toys directly to the router.


YMMV. I'm able to stream HDTV fine across my wireless network. It just depends (greatly) on how and where you have things setup.


----------



## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

I stream it pretty much every day using my Tvix's on a wired network.



mikeyts said:


> True streaming of 16-18 Mbps content is a pretty bandwidth intensive operation for a home LAN; you're sure as hell not likely to successfully do it over 11G, theoretical peak transfer rates be damned--way too much latency. File transfer with progressive playback is a lot easier to manage.
> 
> I can't even get streaming playback of 8 Mbps MPEG4 clips to my Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 to work over wireless G, one reason why I wired all of my toys directly to the router.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

I don't want to claim that it's absolutely not possible, but it's very difficult, and probably at best "ticky", subject to occasional pauses and stutters. Progressive playback of a transferred file is perfectly reliable (perfectly reliable if you give it a good head start) and it doesn't matter how much latency there is in the connection between the TiVo and its content source.


----------



## mikeyts (Jul 10, 2004)

A really sad thing is that on my system the digital simulcasts of the analog channels are Copy One Generation protected. I have a Season Pass for _Ebert and Roeper At the Movies_ as recorded from the over-the-air SD version of the local NBC affliate and it's marked Copy One Generation. They _do_ have the actual analog broadcast on the wire, to which I assume no copy protection has been applied, but the headend maps the channel to the digital simulcast on the CableCARDs, so I couldn't record the analog version if I wanted to.

Technically, some of the digital simulcasts _are_ rebroadcasts of local over-the-air channels, but since they have the original form of the channel on the wire in the clear, I'm guessing that these highly modified (digitized) versions are legally fair game for copy protection.

The good thing is that I can't imagine ever wanting to copy a recording of an SD digital simulcast off of TiVo; if I really wanted to, I could always switch to recording the program as it airs on the rebroadcast of the station's DTV channel, though it'd take up a lot more space. I just wonder how common this is.


----------



## cody_dingo (Aug 21, 2007)

HDTiVo said:


> This morning I sent an email to several HDNET executives describing the situation and asking for their policy and help. I identified my cable system and alerted them to the general fact that MRV went live this week and the issue would be nationwide.
> 
> Another thing I will do is contact the Town Board's committee which deals with my cable company to see if and when they might be able to get involved in influencing the flag choices for all digital channels.


Curious what the outcome of this is. Keep us posted!


----------

