# Straight up...difference in Base Premiere and Premiere XL?



## cmshep222 (Feb 18, 2005)

The facts seem very shaded here. The XL has the 1TB hard drive and a glow-remote...I get that. And after that, the XL is THX certified...I get that too. 

But does that mean better hardware (processor, RAM, video card)? Or is the actual hardware the same (besides the hard drive space)?

I'm looking to buy a 2nd Tivo for our house (1st is a Tivo HD) ...but if it's really just glow-remote and bigger hard drive...I'll buy the base Premiere for $72 bucks on Amazon, vs $248 for the XL. 

Hoping this group has some insight here!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

As far as anyone has been able to tell other than the hard drive the hardware is the same in the Premiere and Premiere XL. 

Also just for reference it is very easy to upgrade the Internal hard drive of a Premiere. 

Good Luck,


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Also just for reference it is very easy to upgrade the Internal hard drive of a Premiere.


Although hard drives are quite expensive right now but they should be coming down soon hopefully.


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

Just get the Premiere. Put the difference in $$ toward a 2 TB drive upgrade and don't look back!


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## g_stewart (Mar 12, 2007)

...and the XL has the "XL" plastic logo thingy on the front. 

I like to think that alone makes it the BMW of DVR's, as I sob quietly over how much extra money was wasted.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Better yet buy a used one and upgrade the drive


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

cmshep222 said:


> The facts seem very shaded here. The XL has the 1TB hard drive and a glow-remote...I get that. And after that, the XL is THX certified...I get that too.
> 
> But does that mean better hardware (processor, RAM, video card)? Or is the actual hardware the same (besides the hard drive space)?


As others have said- the two boxes have exactly identical hardware in every way except hard drive model/size. The difference in price for the $25 more hard drive space and a remote that most people would want to replace with a Slide remote, is just insane.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

crxssi said:


> As others have said- the two boxes have exactly identical hardware in every way except hard drive model/size. The difference in price for the $25 more hard drive space and a remote that most people would want to replace with a Slide remote, is just insane.


How is it insane? You don't save a great deal by doing a DIY hard drive upgrade. Not everyone wants to or is able to upgrade the hard drive. And TiVo is basically charging about $150 for the upgraded drive. That isn't even that much more than you can get a drive right now. I think they have it priced pretty reasonably considering. And like I have said before, the Premium Glo is perfectly fine for most people. In fact, it is a great remote compared to most TV and cable company remotes.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

rainwater said:


> How is it insane? You don't save a great deal by doing a DIY hard drive upgrade. Not everyone wants to or is able to upgrade the hard drive. And TiVo is basically charging about $150 for the upgraded drive. That isn't even that much more than you can get a drive right now. I think they have it priced pretty reasonably considering.


I look at it much differently. The XL is $200 more (three times the contract cost). The difference in price between the drives in the two models was about $25 or something (when I looked).

Analogy- let's create a car named the Rider. Base price, $20,000. Now we will add to the features of the car, a gas tank that holds a lot more gas than the regular model and call it the "Rider XL" (and throw in some fuzzy dice for the mirror). Price? $60,000.



> And like I have said before, the Premium Glo is perfectly fine for most people. In fact, it is a great remote compared to most TV and cable company remotes.


Fuzzy dice.

The stock (non-"Glo") remote is also perfectly fine for most people and is a great remote compared to most TV and cable company remotes. But one who is willing to grossly overpay for a unit is probably not "most people". One would think they would at LEAST add in their top of the line remote with such a model.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

crxssi said:


> I look at it much differently. The XL is $200 more (three times the contract cost). The difference in price between the drives in the two models was about $25 or something (when I looked).


I don't see how the difference matters when you have to buy a new drive if you buy plan on upgrading. DIY is always cheaper but the price they are charging is not that ridiculous all things considered. If I was recommending this to anyone in my family, I would recommend the XL because I know none of them has to ability or patience to install a drive. Well worth it in my book. For me, I would never buy the XL because I have no problem updating the drive myself.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crxssi said:


> I look at it much differently. The XL is $200 more (three times the contract cost). The difference in price between the drives in the two models was about $25 or something (when I looked).
> 
> Analogy- let's create a car named the Rider. Base price, $20,000. Now we will add to the features of the car, a gas tank that holds a lot more gas than the regular model and call it the "Rider XL" (and throw in some fuzzy dice for the mirror). Price? $60,000.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the Rider XL comes with THX certification, I mean, mag wheels.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Well the THX certified S3 used a higher bit rate for analog to digital conversion compared to the subsequent HD. One would presume the higher bit rate was also used for the HDXL. The higher bit rate for encoding results in a better quality picture.

Also, still regarding the THX certification, a post a few years ago from someone who did open the S3 and HD boxes because he was bothered by the apparent inferior analog to digital of the HD, but not because of bit rate. Anyway, what he determined, if I remember correctly was the the S3 had separate chips for encoding the analog to digital, and the HD used a common chip.

Of course that was for the Series 3 platform, but it makes this point: supposedly, the THX certification means that the unit meets THX standards for the best possible video and audio. I have no doubt the XL's have some things in them to do indeed result in superior quality, but the question is how appreciable is this higher quality in real world viewing of content on the TiVo? Even the inferiority noticed by that long-time-ago poster was one he admitted that not everyone would notice, but mostly the discerning eye or if Joe Blow did notice, he probably wouldn't care and enjoy the shows anyway. Now, let's assume the Premiere XL does, indeed, truly perform at a higher level meeting the THX standards (whatever those really are; the current definition just means that it is superior to the non-THX version), but is this worth hundreds of $$ extra? That is something for each to decide, especially since most people probably could never tell the difference or if they did, may not see it as so inferior as to ruin the experience and they would rather save the hundreds of dollars. A wealthy, picky, tech dude who can really see the difference just might pop for the XL, but his has plenty more $$$ from where that came, not always the case for the rest of us.

The old legend that the Sony Betamax was superior to VHS is true ON PAPER, as Betamax did handle the audio a bit better with ever so slightly less wow and flutter and I believe provided for about 5 more lines of resolution and Sony's more convoluted tape path probably provided for better isolation. OK, yeah, I guess Betamax MEASURES superior on paper, but those extremely minor enhancements just CANNOT be appreciated (noticed) by mere human beings. For all practical purposes in real world viewing, the Betamax and VHS could be seen as being IDENTICAL, not being able to tell the difference between them because the heart of the matter was that they were 1/2" 240 (Sony 245, me thinks) lines of horizontal resolution videotape systems, both victims of their tape size and, hence, lines of resolution and, therefore, indistinguishable in terms of judging one or the other as superior quality. We used to set them up both side by side and NO ONE could tell the difference.

If we presume the Premier XL has similar or other enhancements as the The S3 and HDXL, then THX certified TiVo's seem to be matter of finer points rather than significant quality differences. So, if one is considering an XL, they are better off considering it for the larger built in HDD, especially if they aren't tech oriented and aren't comfortable performing their own upgrade or paying for one at Weaknees, for example. Then, of course, there are those who like the status of the "XL" and "THX Certification."


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Series3Sub said:


> ...Then, of course, there are those who like the status of the "XL" and "THX Certification."


Not to mention the cool THX opening video clip.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

unitron said:


> Don't forget the Rider XL comes with THX certification, I mean, mag wheels.


Um, no. Mag wheels would be a REAL feature.

THX certification would be the same as a window sticker saying "yep, the claimed miles per gallon for this model car was actually tested to be true", even though both models are identical engines and MPG.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Series3Sub said:


> I have no doubt the XL's have some things in them to do indeed result in superior quality, but the question is how appreciable is this higher quality in real world viewing of content on the TiVo?


I actually very much doubt there is anything physically different in the two. And like you said, even if there were (which is very improbable), I doubt anyone would ever notice.

FUZZY DICE


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes, it just means that TiVo payed the money to THX to get that model certified. The lower model could probably get THX certification as well but it would cost extra. There are many products out there that are as good or better than THX certified products, but they are not THX certified since the manufacturer did not pay the certification cost. I have no idea what that additional cost is though.

In real world use I've never noticed a difference in audio or video between my regular Premieres and my XL and Elite Premieres that are THX certified.


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## jpcamaro70 (Nov 23, 2011)

crxssi said:


> I look at it much differently. The XL is $200 more (three times the contract cost). The difference in price between the drives in the two models was about $25 or something (when I looked).
> 
> Analogy- let's create a car named the Rider. Base price, $20,000. Now we will add to the features of the car, a gas tank that holds a lot more gas than the regular model and call it the "Rider XL" (and throw in some fuzzy dice for the mirror). Price? $60,000.
> 
> ...


I love the analogy but must disagree.

Look at the basic premiere as a loss leader and the xL as the true cost. Most people go with the base premier (I assume) so they'll be competitive here, get more subs. Base products are always the losers or short gainers, these companies need the upgraded products to make money.

Look at Apple iphone 16gb is 199, 32 is 299, 64 is 399. Does it really cost $100 for 16gb of memory?

Plus, the cost of a 1TB drive is 200 or more DIY, plus your time.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

jpcamaro70 said:


> I love the analogy but must disagree. [...] Look at Apple iphone 16gb is 199, 32 is 299, 64 is 399. Does it really cost $100 for 16gb of memory?


Exactly my point. The higher models are a rip-off. We all know it doesn't cost that much for extra memory.



> Plus, the cost of a 1TB drive is 200 or more DIY, plus your time.


Actually, it is $150 and maybe 10 min of time (see dvr_dude on ebay) for 1TB or $190 for a 2TB (which would be DOUBLE the size of the XL). And that is only because drive prices are temporarily, grossly inflated over the last few months.

But those are after-model costs. I was only talking to the absurd, 700%, extra, bonus profit that TiVo gets by charging $200 more for $25 of storage (the difference in THEIR cost for the drives) (Oh yeah, and maybe $5 more for the upgraded, non-top-end remote, and $1 for the THX certification "feel-good").

512GB drives, like that in the Premiere non-XL, are joke now. It has been two years since the introduction of the Premiere and the low-storage model does nothing to further TiVo's position as a leader. As I have said in other threads, several times, TiVo needs to drop the Premiere non-XL and just have two models: The Premiere Elite, and the Premiere XL (at the Premiere non-XL price) and bundle the Slide Remote with it (or just the standard remote and leave THAT for an upgrade).


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## Shanezam203 (Jul 28, 2007)

yoheidiho said:


> Just get the Premiere. Put the difference in $$ toward a 2 TB drive upgrade and don't look back!


what's that internal 2tb drive cost? and shipped with Tivo software so it's plug and play.

Thanks,
Shane


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Shanezam203 said:


> what's that internal 2tb drive cost? and shipped with Tivo software so it's plug and play.


That information is in my last post, right above yours.


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## xberk (Dec 3, 2011)

Shanezam203 said:


> what's that internal 2tb drive cost? and shipped with Tivo software so it's plug and play.
> 
> Thanks,
> Shane


Free shipping .. Formated for your Premiere .. Plug-and-play .. Reliable ... I bought two from them .. No problems .. 3 year hard drive warranty
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-TiVo-Premiere-2TB-Hard-Drive-Upgrade-Kit-/320627171474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa6de6092


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

He'll also sell you a complete new Premiere with that drive installed for $249.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

crxssi said:


> As I have said in other threads, several times, TiVo needs to drop the Premiere non-XL and just have two models: The Premiere Elite, and the Premiere XL (at the Premiere non-XL price)


I agree. Plus, having fewer models to market and sell will make it easier for Tivo. Remember the confusion and chaos when they were still selling 5 models?

Tivo 2
Tivo 2 DT
Tivo 3/TivoHD
Tivo Premiere
Tivo Premiere/XL


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

unitron said:


> Not to mention the cool THX opening video clip.


Oh, yeah. I really do think that is the best opening of them all. I even like the short and simply little TiVo critter taking his bow before the spotlight and stage. The other openings are just too long and STUPID. Although, I do find the Premiere opening less objectionable only because it is kooky-weird. .


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

crxssi said:


> I actually very much doubt there is anything physically different in the two. And like you said, even if there were (which is very improbable), I doubt anyone would ever notice.
> 
> FUZZY DICE


I understand you belief that the XL's and non-XL's are identical. I just believe TiVo put some "chewing gum" or a gold screw (oops, now don't run away with that example ) somewhere in the unit and THX could claim that is what makes it "the best quality video and audio" (THX NEVER defines that or what the supposed difference is between the two, so WHO KNOWS what that is supposed to mean), so THX can "Certify" the thing and get their money from TiVo. The "chewing gum" is what can protect TiVo from lawsuits.

Seriously, though, if those boxes are identical, someone should file suit or at least have THX tell us what supposedly makes the XL units meet the THX certification and the non-XL's not. Is anyone willing to take this to Judge Judy.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> Seriously, though, if those boxes are identical, someone should file suit or at least have THX tell us what supposedly makes the XL units meet the THX certification and the non-XL's not. Is anyone willing to take this to Judge Judy.


THX isn't telling you anything about a Premiere. TiVo has not paid them to test it against their standards. Just because something isn't THX certified doesn't mean it doesn't meet THX Standards it just means it hasn't been tested and certified to actually meet them.

TiVo isn't doing anything different here than most tablet makers, they add a few GBs of storage that cost them a few $$s and then charge a $100 for it.  No one forces anyone to pay extra for a XL and TiVo doesn't say it has anything that it doesn't so I don't know what the issue is.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> Seriously, though, if those boxes are identical, someone should file suit or at least have THX tell us what supposedly makes the XL units meet the THX certification and the non-XL's not. Is anyone willing to take this to Judge Judy.


How is this a lawsuit? Lack of a statement does not imply anything. TiVo has said why the TXL does meet the certs. If it turns out it doesn't, you have a fraud lawsuit.

But unless they have made a statement in regards another unit (eg, the std S4), what exactly is your lawsuit about? They have never said they are identical. It's people here who have said that.

Maybe you should sue them on Judge Judy.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> Seriously, though, if those boxes are identical, someone should file suit or at least have THX tell us what supposedly makes the XL units meet the THX certification and the non-XL's not. Is anyone willing to take this to Judge Judy.


Bigger hard drive, premium glo remote, and thx certification = $200. Good luck with your suit though. Compared to PC manufacturers, these upgrades are done at a pretty reasonable price. And THX certification costs TiVo per box sold so they have to attach value to it.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Series3Sub said:


> Seriously, though, if those boxes are identical, someone should file suit or at least have THX tell us what supposedly makes the XL units meet the THX certification and the non-XL's not. Is anyone willing to take this to Judge Judy.


It doesn't matter that they are identical. One is certified and the other isn't. That doesn't equate to a lawsuit.... just a marketing gimmick. If you pay for a THX certified unit, then that is what you get. You as the consumer can judge the value of that sticker. To me, it has zero value.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

rainwater said:


> Bigger hard drive, premium glo remote, and thx certification = $200. Good luck with your suit though. Compared to PC manufacturers, these upgrades are done at a pretty reasonable price.


Not really, I just went to HP's website and "customized" a home computer. Clicked on the option for the double sized, 1TB hard drive, and it raised the price $50. Then upgraded to a PREMIUM keyboard AND mouse for $20 more.



> And THX certification costs TiVo per box sold so they have to attach value to it.


Yeah, maybe $1 or 2 

Again, people will have to decide if the differences are worth it to them. But there is no question that $200 extra charge is only costing TiVo about $20 to $40 in expense.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Are you sure its only One or two dollars? I thought I had read that THX certification adds much more to the cost a product.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> Are you sure its only One or two dollars? I thought I had read that THX certification adds much more to the cost a product.


Pure speculation. Sorry, I should have made that more clear in my other postings.

I tried researching it and came up dry, but I have a feeling it is all kept very confidential. It is likely they paid some large initial fee for testing, then a large annual fee, then a very small per-unit fee. This seems pretty typical for other types of certification/branding type situations. When you spread it over all the units sold, I am guessing it is a few dollars per machine.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

crxssi said:


> Yeah, maybe $1 or 2


I would be absolutely shocked if TiVo is only having to pay $2 for THX certification per box. Unless they are getting some huge discount others don't get.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

rainwater said:


> I would be absolutely shocked if TiVo is only having to pay $2 for THX certification per box. Unless they are getting some huge discount others don't get.


I don't know why you would be "shocked". Consumer devices have all kinds of small sub dollar to $3 types of licensing in them. MP3 players, computers, TV's, phones, DVD players, even printers. It is just a license fee- it is not like the name "THX" actually adds any physical expense to the box in question.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

crxssi said:


> I don't know why you would be "shocked". Consumer devices have all kinds of small sub dollar to $3 types of licensing in them. MP3 players, computers, TV's, phones, DVD players, even printers. It is just a license fee- it is not like the name "THX" actually adds any physical expense to the box in question.


THX is extremely overpriced. Look at any THX certified device. The price is always ridiculous. I don't think THX devices would cost that much more if the fee was $1 per box. I really wish TiVo wouldn't waste their time adding THX. I think you could see the Premiere XL at $200 or at least $250 if not for THX.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Well, there is such a thing as what is "implied" in consumer law, and I think at this point no one has bothered pursuing the whole "XL" gimmick because people either avoid that product or purchase the XL only for the larger HDD capcity or feel satisfied that they have a device that they think really is superior to the non-XL's

Take the example of the woman who finally took Honda to small claims court and won because all the sticker info and qualifications of "actual mileage may vary" didn't help after all. She pusued them in a forum that could afford to legally challenge them and not be out classed by and army of lawyers. It seems everybody else was telling her good luck with her suit as well. In her case she was able to measure and document the difference in mileage she was getting compared to the claims of the manufacturer, most people don't do that and just fell beaten and cheated and just try to forget the whole thing, but not this individual, and that's how it works. She was dogged.

In truth, individuals really, as you pointed out, don't have much to stand on if they were to take TiVo to court, even if there is absolutely no difference between the XL and non-XL's, but that is where the government usually comes in, and only at the behest of the public, to pressure manufacturers to make clear the claim--since it has a higher retail price and the THX certification is clearly IMPLIED to be superior in technical quality to the non-XL's--or stop such claim.

I'm certain TiVo's lawyers have told them this, but, like many companies, they will just collect the money until they are told to stop the practice, but often ARE NEVER told to stop the practice because buyers feel satisfaction in the product they have purchased (the XL models) and never file complaints because they don't feel a loss or injury.

So yes, as I had said, JUDGE JUDY would be the best forum for those interested to press this matter. .

And so it goes.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> since it has a higher retail price and the THX certification is clearly IMPLIED to be superior in technical quality to the non-XL's


That is not what THX certification implies. It implies that THX has certified it for meeting their standards.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Series3Sub said:


> Well, there is such a thing as what is "implied" in consumer law,<snip>
> So yes, as I had said, JUDGE JUDY would be the best forum for those interested to press this matter. .
> 
> And so it goes.


There is no polite way to put this. You have totally misunderstand the use of "implied". TiVo has never implied the std Premiere is anything. They are telling you the XL meets a specific standard (THX). Whether the std unit does or does not HAPPEN to meet that same std is not implied, stated or anything.

For all we know, the two units are identical (except for hard drives). And the higher price is going towards the fee to be certified. But since TiVo has not made any claims for their std unit, we don't know this, nor is it an legal issue.

So again, no way any court ever hears this case. You would be sanctioned for a frivolous lawsuit (if that exists in your state).


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## jonhoffm (May 7, 2008)

g_stewart said:


> ...and the XL has the "XL" plastic logo thingy on the front.
> 
> I like to think that alone makes it the BMW of DVR's, as I sob quietly over how much extra money was wasted.


Just a thought - There are much better analogies than to BMW, a performance brand that stands on its own. Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, even Audi would have been better since they are performance/luxury brands of Ford, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and VW, respectively. Therefore, they could be better accused of slapping a different logo on essentially the same product with a few minor upgrades and charging significantly more for it.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

jonhoffm said:


> Just a thought - There are much better analogies than to BMW, a performance brand that stands on its own. Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, even Audi would have been better since they are performance/luxury brands of Ford, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and VW, respectively. Therefore, they could be better accused of slapping a different logo on essentially the same product with a few minor upgrades and charging significantly more for it.


They COULD be, however, they don't do that. The cars in their luxury brand are not very similar at all to the other brands. At least, not in the cars I have seen. I own an Infiniti G37S and the only thing remotely similar would be the Nissan Maxima. Although they use the same engine and similar controls, they have totally different transmissions, intake, exhaust, drive, seats, car body, glass, headlights, wheels, suspension, warranty, etc, etc.

A much better analogy would be back when GM made two nearly identical cars and smacked a "Chevy" badge on one and a "Pontiac" badge on the other. Example: Chevy Chevette ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevette ) vs. Pontiac T1000 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_T1000 ). UG, my first car was a Chevette.... what a heap!


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## pmiranda (Feb 12, 2003)

Don't forget the blue glasses you can use for the THX optimizer


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