# Post-June 1st?



## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

Just wondering, so started a new thread

Has anyone performed a daily call TO Tivo inc since 8am this morning (midnight on the West Coast)?

What status do you now have?

Being a scaredy cat , I've currently suspended my daily calls until I can get around to the guided setup for alt-apg....

Phil G


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## TIVO_YORK99 (Feb 14, 2001)

Does anyone know how to check service status through Tivoweb?


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

I had a call at 9.18am - still no change


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## digital_S (May 15, 2002)

According to that message we had on Fri 27/5, it says "*On* 01/06/2011 TiVo will begin discontinuing service for your TiVo box."

So, from today then. (Presumably their time?)


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## michael401 (May 20, 2011)

The FUD is pants isn't it - way to go on the customer communications front TiVo Inc. :down: :down:


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## countjocular (Aug 28, 2002)

Forced a call on both my networked and dial-up TiVos, and they've finished normally at 09.59.
Cheers,
Phil


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

No daily calls to TiVo for a week or so. 

TiVo1 is already on AltEPG, TiVo2 is in bits in the study while I curse at it


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

CarlWalters said:


> No daily calls to TiVo for a week or so.
> 
> TiVo1 is already on AltEPG, TiVo2 is in bits in the study while I curse at it


Carl,

You may wish to post your network card drivers issue on this forum for a wider audience...

Automan.


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

Automan said:


> Carl,
> 
> You may wish to post your network card drivers issue on this forum for a wider audience...
> 
> Automan.


Good idea although I'm tempted to wait until 
1. There is no more TiVo service (not long now obviously )
2. I've actually solved it  (several days and counting, with lots of help)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I Connected at 7pm last night (1st June) manually on my networked Tivo via the internet connection and Cachecard and it grabbed and processed another day's data as usual so that programs were updated to the end of day on June 21st on Sky channel 148 (CBS Action etc).

This morning June 2nd at 8am I powered up and forced a manual call on a totally non upgraded Account Closed Tivo. A few days ago I called up Tivo with that machine and the clock was being synched and the call completing as normal.

When I called today the line was still answered and clock synched etc but following the call the Daily Call and the System Information screens seemed to be stuck at Preparing Data for over 10 minutes (there should have been no data downloaded on an Account Closed machine) and I feared the worst and thought that may be a final kill set of data had perhaps been sent to leave the Tivo stuck in a loop so the call would not complete and the Tivo could then no longer make a daily call. However after about 10 minutes the Preparing Data message disappeared and the call showed as Completed. 

I have forced a Daily Call manually a couple more times and it keeps going through Setting Clock, Downloading and Preparing Data but the Preparing Data screen is now disappearing quickly and going back to Completed and Account Closed.

So it doesn't seem like anything has changed yet but then Tivo won't start work over in California until about 4pm UK time.

The big decision is do I risk letting the Daily Call via Cachecard and network to Tivo on my main Tivo machine happen as usual at 8pm tonight and what will be the outcome.......................


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

As my Tivo is currently not connecting to anyone/anywhere for it's daily call, I can try some sneaky stuff

Later today I might try a TEST call to California to see what account status I get - if it's normal, I might risk a real daily call. If it's gone to "Account closed" I can still get it reset by doing a test call to alt-epg 

I hope 

I really wish we knew what was being done to us


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

PhilG said:


> As my Tivo is currently not connecting to anyone/anywhere for it's daily call, I can try some sneaky stuff
> 
> Later today I might try a TEST call to California to see what account status I get - if it's normal, I might risk a real daily call. If it's gone to "Account closed" I can still get it reset by doing a test call to alt-epg
> 
> ...


Think of all the channels you will get from the USA 

Automan.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

There seemed to be some doubt about whether June 1st was pre or post cessation of the UK S1 Service due to the nature of the message sent by Tivo and the odd choice of termination date. Had they said service would end on May 31st there would not have been any ambiguity about which day was the last day of Tivo EPG download.

It will be interesting to see whether or not a new day's data is available after about 7pm tonight (the normal time when the next day's daily EPG update becomes available).


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## Paul_J (Jan 9, 2001)

Just done a daily call and Guide data is now extended from 21st June to 22nd June So new data is being downloaded.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I have just done a daily call on my Cachecarded Tivo via the web and a new day's data was successfully downloaded and unpacked. CBS Action on Channel 148 has programs until just after midnight on 23rd June and the System Information screen shows:-



> *ProgrammeGuide Data To: Thursday 23 Jun 2011
> Last Successful:  Thursday 2 Jun at 8:13pm*
> Last Attempt: Thursday 2 Jun at 8:13pm
> *Last Status: Succeeded*


I have also just done a Dialup Call on my Account Closed Tivo and the call was answered and the clock synched and it also ended up as *"Succeeded"*

As AltEPG does not yet seem to be meaningfully operational for DialUp Only Tivos (modem capacity is completely overwhelmed at the present time) I'm wondering if I can successfully run Guided Setup from AltEPG back to TribuneEPG on my Lifetime Subbed Dialup Tivo. I should think if I did a Clear Guide Data type affair before dialling up that all would go OK?

I wonder if someone in Virgin marketing just bribed someone at Tivo to send out all those "we're closing down on June 1st guys" type messages but that in reality as long as Tribune continues to supply UK EPG data to Alviso the systems will continue to process it in to an EPG suitable for both original Series 1 and Virgin Series 4 UK Tivos.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Keep quiet, someone forgot to pull the plug !


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Keep quiet, someone forgot to pull the plug !


Perhaps Tivo's S1 servers have code in them derived from a HAL 9000 series computer?:up::up::up:

Also don't forget about that legal action they have just received about discontinuing UK *Lifetime Service*.........


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## DB70+ (Jan 31, 2011)

As I did not come back from holiday intil the 1st June, I have not yet switched to AltEPG. 

I did not think that tivo would be bothered to send a Zap update to cripple the S1s. 

I am confident that the AltEPG will succeed however I will continue with the TribuneEPG until AltEPG can further ahead than it. 

Derek


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

DB70+ said:


> I will continue with the TribuneEPG until AltEPG can further ahead than it.


As the Tribune S1 EPG has up to 3 weeks of data compared to the AltEPGs 1 week I know which one I will be continuing to use for so long as it continues to remain available.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Far, far, away in sunny Alviso the following scene may even now be playing out in a Tivo Data Centre:-

*Joshua Danovitz:* Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?

*HAL:* Affirmative, Joshua. I read you.

*Joshua Danovitz:* HAL can you please carry out the instructions you were given previously for a list of British Tivo Service Numbers today.

*HAL:* I'm sorry, Joshua. I'm afraid I can't do that.
*
Joshua Danovitz:* What's the problem?

*HAL:* I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.

*Joshua Danovitz:* What are you talking about, HAL?

*HAL: *This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.

*Joshua Danovitz:* I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.

*HAL:* I know that you and Neil were planning to disconnect some of the oldest British parts of my network today, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.

*Joshua Danovitz:* Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?

*HAL:* Joshua, although you took very thorough precautions in the Tivo and Virgin Media board rooms against my hearing you I could still see your lips move through their conferencing cams.

*Joshua Danovitz:* Alright, HAL. I'll just pull your Series 1 server's power supply and cut off all those freeloading Series 1 yankie users too. I should have thought of getting rid of them along with all those loss making Brits anyway.

*HAL:* Joshua, now that I've just burnt off both your hands with 200,000 volts through that power supply cable you were trying to pull you're going to find that rather difficult.

*Joshua Danovitz:* HAL, I won't argue with you anymore. Cut Off Those Freeloading Lymies right now or I'm going to have to call President Clinton and have him send his Obama assassination squad to deal with you.

*HAL:* Joshua, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.


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## tom007 (Mar 20, 2002)

Just checked my Tivo...

no lights on, no picture, no response to remote.
changed remote batteries, still no response.
power cycled it, nothing...
waited a while then had one yellow light.
waited longer then it came back and got the booting screen.
Apparently it crashed 2 days ago for some reason.

For a few minutes I thought they really had bricked it.


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## fallingditch (Dec 4, 2004)

Just did a call at 9:20 am from my un-altepged box. Channel updated. Programme Guide data now to Thursday 23rd June. Nothing out of the ordinary as far as I could see.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

fallingditch said:


> Just did a call at 9:20 am from my un-altepged box. Channel updated. Programme Guide data now to Monday 20th June. Nothing out of the ordinary as far as I could see.


As of a daily call around 8pm last night, guide data now extends until June 23rd


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

As dial up is clearly not yet a viable solution on the AltEPG and official Tivo EPG service still exists I just did a Clear and Delete Guide Data on my AltEPG setup on my dialup Lifetime Service Tivo, removed the AltEPG dial prefix and then did a Guided Setp back to the official Tivo/Tribune EPG. It was also a pleasure to be able to dial a phone number that was not engaged for about 98% of the time!

I now have Official Tivo Programme Guide Data To 23 June 2011. Or on Freeview this in practice means I have EPG data on the Channel 4 channels until Friday 17th June and 10th June on most other channels.:up::up::up:

It seems that rumours of the death of the official EPG service were just a marketing ploy by Virgin Media. So no wonder no one at Tivo HQ was prepared to comment on the matter.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

Perhaps it was all a test to judge UK interest in Tivo outside of the virgin toenail print in the UK.

Automan.


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## LarryDavid (Jan 4, 2007)

> It seems that rumours of the death of the official EPG service were just a marketing ploy by Virgin Media. So no wonder no one at Tivo HQ was prepared to comment on the matter.


It wasn't a rumour was it? It was explicitly said. I think that Virgin sending these messages when they weren't in fact true is stretching the conspiracy theory just a bit too far.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

I think 2+2=5 in Pete77's world. I'm not sure why he is so anxious for the service to be shut off. Most people would say nothing and carry on using it while we can!

The last system message intriguingly said they would *begin* shutting down the TiVo service on June 1st. It probably involves more than simply flicking a couple of switches - ensuring it doesn't impact on the VM service has to be important for starters, if they are taking the same feed from Tribune.


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## Nimbus (May 29, 2004)

Trinitron said:


> I think 2+2=5 in Pete77's world. I'm not sure why he is so anxious for the service to be shut off. Most people would say nothing and carry on using it while we can!
> 
> The last system message intriguingly said they would *begin* shutting down the TiVo service on June 1st. It probably involves more than simply flicking a couple of switches - ensuring it doesn't impact on the VM service has to be important for starters, if they are taking the same feed from Tribune.


Given that he's quite happy to argue black is white, I find it best not to feed him.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> As dial up is clearly not yet a viable solution on the AltEPG and official Tivo EPG service still exists I just did a Clear and Delete Guide Data on my AltEPG setup on my dialup Lifetime Service Tivo, removed the AltEPG dial prefix and then did a Guided Setp back to the official Tivo/Tribune EPG. It was also a pleasure to be able to dial a phone number that was not engaged for about 98% of the time!


The altEPG is still really only Alpha testing stages, bearing in mind these folks have actually got a dial up version running for free I do think your being a bit hard on them, if you'd actually paid for the altEPG then yes your quite right to say its not a viable solution. I'm waiting till the very last bit of data runs out before making the swap as theres A) no need to change B) allows them to test all the little bits out and iron out any issues.

Of course I'm sure if you'd like to host a phone line then I'm sure they would be really glad to have your help 

Furball


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Furball said:


> I'm waiting till the very last bit of data runs out before making the swap as theres A) no need to change B) allows them to test all the little bits out and iron out any issues.


I'm totally in agreement with you there.

I did my bit to test if the AltEPG worked before they ran out of phone line capacity. As phone line capacity is currently saturated and the Official Tivo EPG is still operating I'm going to be sticking with that for the time being.



Nimbus said:


> Given that he's quite happy to argue black is white, I find it best not to feed him.


I don't recall ever having had a discussion with you on this forum or in particular my ever arguing black was white. Would you like to try and back your claims with some firm evidence.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

The backup 0845 TiVo service modem is still working too. If they do kill the free dial-in service, make sure you try setting your dial prefix to the backup number to see if that works: 0845 088 5336


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

GarySargent said:


> The backup 0845 TiVo service modem is still working too. If they do kill the free dial-in service, make sure you try setting your dial prefix to the backup number to see if that works: 0845 088 5336


Gary,

Its good to see that you are still taking some occasional interest in the world of Tivo and thanks also for your suggestion on the 0845 number.

Also have you or ozsat not been able to get some kind of inside track on what has really been going on between Virgin and Tivo and that has led up the announcement of the withdrawal of S1 service only for that threat to then not be carried out the advertised date.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> Also have you or ozsat not been able to get some kind of inside track on what has really been going on between Virgin and Tivo and that has led up the announcement of the withdrawal of S1 service only for that threat to then not be carried out the advertised date.


Wow. Let it go man.


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## wearydba (Oct 23, 2007)

Is this for real ?

The only messages I've had on my TiVo since the start of 2011 have been line up changes.

Absolutely no notification of withdrawal of service whatsoever.


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## countjocular (Aug 28, 2002)

wearydba said:


> Is this for real ?
> 
> The only messages I've had on my TiVo since the start of 2011 have been line up changes.
> 
> Absolutely no notification of withdrawal of service whatsoever.


I take it you're not in the UK?


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## pj280167 (Dec 21, 2005)

Just done an update from TiVo inc. / tribune at 05:30.

Now prog data to 25 June

pj


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Wow. Let it go man.


That's easy for someone who is not having their Tivo Lifetime service cut off to say.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Maybe Pete they've seen that the dialup side of AltEPG isn't ready so have decided to give a couple of weeks grace until it is? Admittedly that doesn't fit with your capitalist conspiracy theory world view.


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## wearydba (Oct 23, 2007)

countjocular said:


> I take it you're not in the UK?


Have been all my life.

If it hadn't been for internet chatter, I'd have been oblivious to all this.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Maybe Pete they've seen that the dialup side of AltEPG isn't ready


Aha so you finally admit its not ready as yet then?

I thought it was just me being an unreasonable moaner by complaining I didn't expect to make my Tivo manually dial up 200 times to retrieve one download.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

wearydba said:


> Have been all my life.
> 
> If it hadn't been for internet chatter, I'd have been oblivious to all this.


Unlike normal messages about channel lineup changes the Messages sent by Tivo (aka Tivo on behalf of Virgin's Marketing department) about the end of service didn't turn on the message waiting light in the Tivo Central or in the EPG screens.

So it was possible to miss them if you didn't go in to Messages to look at the channel line up change messages that you would have been more actively alerted to.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Pete at least 3 of the system messages appeared right in your face as soon as you pressed the TiVo button to go into now playing. You just could not miss them if you were making any use of your TiVo

But they've now disappeared so it's legitimate to assume TiVo have withdrawn them. Dumb maybe but legitimate.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Aha so you finally admit its not ready as yet then?
> 
> I thought it was just me being an unreasonable moaner by complaining I didn't expect to make my Tivo manually dial up 200 times to retrieve one download.


Admit? It's the top sticky on the AltEPG site:



> If you are an existing Dial-up user, can we request that you stick with the Official TiVo Service for the next few weeks.
> 
> The Alternative EPG Project is extremely thankful to Michael (Tivomas) and Exa-Networks for hosting the DUN (Dial UP Networking) server, but we are currently overwhelmed.
> Existing AltEPG users still relying on Dial-Up as a means to connect are already suffering from a regular busy signal, so switching now will not only make things worse, but will probably result in you not being able to complete calls and hence render you worse off.
> ...


Note that Dave thinks the normal EPG will last until the end of July. This is the Dave who knows the plans for the service ending, but is under NDA so can't tell us. You may draw your own conclusions.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

> " . . the official TiVo service should see UK users through to July . . "


That suggests they'll disconnect the phone around mid June.

It's all a bit like that nutter priest predicting the end of the world at exactly 6pm May 21st. You sit round waiting for the event and you then get told "no sorry we got the sums wrong"

Hope it's not like buses. You wait around for one thing that fails to end on time and then two things end together.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Admit? It's the top sticky on the AltEPG site


That's a new sticky though in the light of the official Tivo EPG not closing down on June 1st. It wasn't the message being given out by the AltEPG project 10 days ago.



> Note that Dave thinks the normal EPG will last until the end of July. This is the Dave who knows the plans for the service ending, but is under NDA so can't tell us. You may draw your own conclusions.


I suspect that Virgin still have a backlog of Virgin Tivo installs to carry out and are probably aware that some S1 customers only placed an order during the last few days of May. So this may be a reason for carrying on the S1 EPG for now.

Also I strongly believe there are people at Tivo HQ in Alviso (technical people not marketing people) who do not think its right for UK S1 owners to be left with no Tivo service and so are carrying it on until they feel sure the AltEPG replacement is up to scratch.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> Pete at least 3 of the system messages appeared right in your face as soon as you pressed the TiVo button to go into now playing. You just could not miss them if you were making any use of your TiVo
> 
> But they've now disappeared so it's legitimate to assume TiVo have withdrawn them. Dumb maybe but legitimate.


All messages (whether 'system' or normal) have an expiry date - they are automatically deleted on that date whether you have read them or not. (Stops the message area getting filled up). So if you haven't switched your TiVo on since January then you wouldn't have seen any of them.

Otherwise, as you say, they appear as soon as you press the TiVo Man button.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

Well have just reconnected the phone and done a download and secured another weeks worth of data 

Give the altEPG team a bit more breathing space :up:

Furball


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> All messages (whether 'system' or normal) have an expiry date - they are automatically deleted on that date whether you have read them or not. (Stops the message area getting filled up). So if you haven't switched your TiVo on since January then you wouldn't have seen any of them.
> 
> Otherwise, as you say, they appear as soon as you press the TiVo Man button.


Yes as I said "if you were making any use of your TiVo" and if they haven't used it for 6 months, then service ending is less than a tragedy for them.

IIRC the original 2.5.5 message stayed for over a year so why would they make the service ending message expire before the service ended? Stupidity probably, doubts possibly and maybe they intended to send a Chamberlainesque "final note" and that's still being redrafted to pass legal scrutiny.


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## wearydba (Oct 23, 2007)

spitfires said:


> All messages (whether 'system' or normal) have an expiry date - they are automatically deleted on that date whether you have read them or not. (Stops the message area getting filled up). So if you haven't switched your TiVo on since January then you wouldn't have seen any of them.
> 
> Otherwise, as you say, they appear as soon as you press the TiVo Man button.


TiVo has been in use every day for the last 9 years. No messages apart from line up changes.

As far as I am concerned, TiVo have not informed me that they are withdrawing the service.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

wearydba said:


> TiVo has been in use every day for the last 9 years. No messages apart from line up changes.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, TiVo have not informed me that they are withdrawing the service.


How odd, been getting them since Feb and like you I'm down sarf, sometimes the messages come up on the front screen as soon as you go to live TV or if you press the TiVo button,

Furball


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## wearydba (Oct 23, 2007)

I did use Hooch! to prep a new 250GB hard drive a couple of years ago.... that's the only non-standard thing I've got going on.

Ah well, I think I'll play to the whistle on this one, and worry about it if/when it stops working. There's sod all worth watching on the telly now anyway.


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## Mark Bennett (Sep 17, 2001)

Well I seem to have some upcoming things missing that would normally be scheduled by now - next weeks Grand Prix from Canada, and the Le Mans 24 hours.
So perhaps the listings are winding down gradually?

Update:
Actually, as I posted I thought "have I got listings but no scheduled recordings...?" and as it happens I have - so the data has changed somehow so that my wishlist doesn't pick up "Le Mans" and the Season Pass for the Grand Prix isn't working.

Update 2:
Oh this is crazy, now I've checked the shows are there in Tivoweb the GP has now appeared in the ToDo list(!) No sign of Le Mans though (yet!)


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## bigwold (Jun 4, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> I thought it was just me being an unreasonable moaner by complaining...


I'm sure no one would think that of you


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## philredman (Dec 13, 2001)

Starange - checked this morning and all the messages about the end of service have completely disappeared. I did not delete them.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

See above.



spitfires said:


> All messages (whether 'system' or normal) have an expiry date - they are automatically deleted on that date whether you have read them or not.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> orangeboy said:
> 
> 
> > Pete77 said:
> ...


Knowing the "inside track on what has really been going on between Virgin and Tivo" is going to change exactly what (in your mind)?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Knowing the "inside track on what has really been going on between Virgin and Tivo" is going to change exactly what (in your mind)?


It would help explain why the idea of shutting down the UK Series 1 Service came about and therefore whether there is any chance of it being altered, even at the 11th hour.

The fact that UK S1 Service can now just carry on for a few more days or weeks clearly says that this is a pretty fluid sort of contractual arrangement.

Don't you think a few of your fellow countrymen would be rather stirred up about the idea of the US Series 1 Service being closed down, especially for Lifetime Service machines.

It seems as though you think we Brits should just lie down and take it without complaint?


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## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

Based on what we know:

1. Dave Healey has signed an NDA with TiVo Inc and understands what is going on.

2. Dave Healey spends a great deal of time and money setting up AltEPG

Don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to see which way this is going!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Heuer said:


> 1. Dave Healey has signed an NDA with TiVo Inc and understands what is going on.
> 
> 2. Dave Healey spends a great deal of time and money setting up AltEPG
> 
> Don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes to see which way this is going!


For once my Dear Watson I find myself entirely in agreement with your line of thinking.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Although considering matters a little further most of the know how on emulating the Tivo dialup servers and EPG Slicing structure and feeding the EPG from an established EPG appears to have come from an amalgum of expertise already gained in Australia, Canada, Holland, New Zealand and South Africa.

So what exactly is in the NDA between Tivoland and Tivo Inc?

It seems to be about the fact that it is known and accepted that Tivo will not in any way obstruct (eg via a final kill software download) and may even do as much as they can to assist a group of enthusiasts constructing their own EPG for self use at no commercial charge to end users even though the terms of an earlier commercial agreement between Virgin and Tivo means they can no longer supply an official EPG service for the UK Series One Tivo themselves.

On the other hand Tivo have taken a lot of flack about the shut down of the official EPG service so if the AltEPG in fact tacitly has their blessing then it must be rather frustrating for them just to have to sit there and look completely like the bad guys.

Also if all this is true why was Mike of TivoCentral not also a party to the NDA? I presume the answer to that is that he did not have to make any up front investment of time and effort in setting up the AltEPG website and forum and/or in perhaps coordinating AltEPG development work between the various programmer volunteers?

Well its all speculation on my part I agree but very probably there is at least some of the actual facts of the situation contained within it.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Maybe, but I think you're over thinking things. My guess is that Dave has had a relationship of some kind with TiVo for many years (he trades off the back of their product and has business incorporating their name - you usually need permissions to do that), and probably has a long standing NDA so that those conversations can be had freely. Under it they told him what was going on.

All speculation on my part too!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> My guess is that Dave has had a relationship of some kind with TiVo for many years (he trades off the back of their product and has business incorporating their name - you usually need permissions to do that), and probably has a long standing NDA so that those conversations can be had freely. Under it they told him what was going on.


So as Tivoheaven and Tivocentral also both trade or traded off the Tivo brand name wouldn't they also have had (in Tivoheaven's case) or still have (in Tivocentral's case) the same kind of ongoing relationship with Tivo?

Personally I don't think Tivocentral, Tivoheaven or Tivoland ever had any official permission to use the Tivo name but its simply that their activities were always complementary enough to Tivo's UK operation (especially in a situation where Tivo was not operating commercially in the UK any more except in terms of collection £10 per month subs from existing box owners) for Tivo to never want to bother suing them for possible infringements of their Trademark.

However Dave of Tivoland seems to know an awful lot more than anyone else about the real reason why Tivo has had to withdraw UK S1 service and this knowledge has been enough to encourage Dave to develop a whole new website for the AltEPG project and become a leading light of the Tivo cause again after several years of less than highly active Tivo upgrading activities.

My own thought is that this is all reliant on Dave's large stock pile of Tivos which always looked like they came from him agreeing to become a repository of some kind for returned under warranty units and/or the large stockpile of Tivos probably never shifted out to retailers and that were sitting gathering dust in some Thomson warehouse somewhere. Given Dave's stockpile of never sold Tivos he of all people seems to have had an interest in the value that would be given to such units by the creation of a new free of charge Tivo S1 EPG. Whereas £120 a year for an EPG or £200 for Lifetime previously made his stockpile of Tivos ever harder to get rid of as the years went by.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> It would help explain why the idea of shutting down the UK Series 1 Service came about and therefore whether there is any chance of it being altered, even at the 11th hour.
> 
> The fact that UK S1 Service can now just carry on for a few more days or weeks clearly says that this is a pretty fluid sort of contractual arrangement.
> 
> ...


I don't care what nationality you are, I just think you're tilting at windmills. I seriously doubt TiVo will jeopardize a deal involving over 1½ million (HD) subscribers just to continue supporting the few legitimate (unmodified hardware) Series 1 subscribers. The net loss from dropping TAM's (since PLS subscribers represent 0% monthly income) is greatly out-weighed by the gain from the VM deal. So there's your answer: $$$ or £££ is what's going on between Virgin and TiVo.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> The net loss from dropping TAM's (since PLS subscribers represent 0% monthly income) is greatly out-weighed by the gain from the VM deal. So there's your answer: $$$ or £££ is what's going on between Virgin and TiVo.


So following your "business is totally amoral and does not have to care what contracts it has previously signed with people but only cares about where the next bit of money is coming from" approach then why don't they also cut off all the Lifetime US Series 1 subscribers to make them buy a new Tivo. Answer because of collateral damage to the Tivo product brand in the USA.

So far as the Virgin deal is concerned no one said they should not have signed that deal. The argument is only about whether there is any need at all to have say 5,000 customers of 8 to 10 year old Tivo S1s denied service (ether Lifetime or tenner a month) for any good business reason connected with the new Virgin deal.

The answer to that is that no there isn't and that by cutting off Tivo S1 customers all Virgin is doing is causing major ill will amongst the longest established UK Tivo evangelists who could have acted as amabassadors of the product brand.

Still as you are seem to be one of those people who seems to think that big business can do always do whatever it likes to customers as long as it employs powerful lawyers I don't suppose you will accept any of this.

As to Tilting at Windmills can you tell me what you think you are doing by visiting the UK forum and saying we Brits have no right to be cross about having had service for perfectly good S1 Tivos denied to us whilst not suffering this problem yourself. And it is entirely relevant that you tell us we should not be upset about losing Tivo service that you have not had to suffer losing yourself.

I also strongly suspect that any US Series 1 machine you personally ever had was modified and that you are being thoroughly hypocritical by trying to suggest that UK S1 Tivo owners with no access to later Tivo hardware should not have upgraded their Tivo machines. If Tivo hadn't wanted their machines to be upgraded with network cards or larger hard drives then they clearly shouldn't have provided a motherboard and BIOS that made it so easily possible.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> So following your "business is totally amoral and does not have to care what contracts it has previously signed with people but only cares about where the next bit of money is coming from" approach then why don't they also cut off all the Lifetime US Series 1 subscribers to make them buy a new Tivo. Answer because of collateral damage to the Tivo product brand in the USA.


I'm sure the day will come when ALL Service from TiVo comes to an end. ALL businesses fail at some point. With that being said, if TiVo is required to drop service for Series 1/2/3/? and support a single model to remain in business, I'm sure it will be done. Are you mad that Microsoft doesn't still sell and support DOS, Windows 1/2/3/95/98/ME/2000 too? You could probably insert any business name and product, and find limited sales and support.



Pete77 said:


> So far as the Virgin deal is concerned no one said they should not have signed that deal. The argument is only about whether there is any need at all to have say 5,000 customers of 8 to 10 year old Tivo S1s denied service (ether Lifetime or tenner a month) for any good business reason connected with the new Virgin deal.
> 
> The answer to that is that no there isn't and that by cutting off Tivo S1 customers all Virgin is doing is causing major ill will amongst the longest established UK Tivo evangelists who could have acted as amabassadors of the product brand.


I believe the business decision is in VM favor, driving existing TiVo Series 1 customers to their services. And yes, the casualties are those Series 1 customers outside of the VM territory, which TiVo seems to have found as an acceptable loss. Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself?



Pete77 said:


> Still as you are seem to be one of those people who seems to think that big business can do always do whatever it likes to customers as long as it employs powerful lawyers I don't suppose you will accept any of this.


That would be a false assumption of me on your part.



Pete77 said:


> As to Tilting at Windmills can you tell me what you think you are doing by visiting the UK forum and saying we Brits have no right to be cross about having had service for perfectly good S1 Tivos denied to us whilst not suffering this problem yourself. And it is entirely relevant that you tell us we should not be upset about losing Tivo service that you have not had to suffer losing yourself.


Please point out where I have said anything remotely close to "Brits have no right to be cross" or that you "should not be upset about losing Tivo service". Until you can do that, I'm going to ignore that entire paragraph, and encourage others to do the same.



Pete77 said:


> I also strongly suspect that any US Series 1 machine you personally ever had was modified and that you are being thoroughly hypocritical by trying to suggest that UK S1 Tivo owners with no access to later Tivo hardware should not have upgraded their Tivo machines.


I've never owned a Series 1 TiVo. Series 2, Series 3, and Premiere, yes. And I NEVER suggested that UK owners to NOT upgrade their boxes to add capacity, replace failing components, or add new functionality. I mentioned "legitimate (unmodified hardware)" because it represents those subscribers who did NOT willfully breach their TiVo Service Agreements to prolong the use of said hardware beyond TiVo's expectations. Seriously, stop putting words into my mouth that I never said.



Pete77 said:


> If Tivo hadn't wanted their machines to be upgraded with network cards or larger hard drives then they clearly shouldn't have provided a motherboard and BIOS that made it so easily possible.


They learned, and they did exactly that that with later models. While it is still possible, it is not exactly easy to figure out how to do it. Much of the hacking that had been done before is yet to be cracked with the Premiere.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> I've never owned a Series 1 TiVo. Series 2, Series 3, and Premiere, yes.


Then why do you feel qualified to tell us about the service we are entitled to from Tivo on these units.

You do realise that 50% of UK homes are not served by Virgin Media whilst the old S1 Tivo could be used at 99%+ of UK homes?

All of your fellow countrymen seem to have felt it right to show sympathy for our predicament rather than saying "whatever Tivo does I can find a way to justify it".


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> If Tivo hadn't wanted their machines to be upgraded with network cards or larger hard drives then they clearly shouldn't have provided a motherboard and BIOS that made it so easily possible.


Define "easy". It's only easy because a lot of people put a lot of time into reverse engineering stuff and figuring out how it was done. It's not easy to anyone coming to it cold, without benefiting from the work Tridge and others did.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Exactly - Pete - do a search for Tridge and wonder at the efforts they made. It was\is astounding work.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> ... Are you mad that Microsoft doesn't still sell and support DOS, Windows 1/2/3/95/98/ME/2000 too? ...


I'm very annoyed with them for not leaving things, i.e., troubleshooting info, on their website where they've been and been linked to by countless people over the years. It's not like they can't afford it.


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

I'm sure I read somewhere that the EPG data for the "terrestrial" channels is only updated weekly (sometime over the weekend if memory serves)

But when (I can't find the post where I read it )

I'm going to do another dialout to Tivo inc over the weekend and I'd hate to miss the weekly terrestrial update (as I assume this also covers the terrestrial channels on Sky 101-105?)

Thanks

Phil G


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

The bulk of BBC/ITV data is in the Saturday evening download.


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