# MPEG-4 Tivo? Please...



## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

Hello,

Do you think there is any way that one will be able to buy a Directv Tivo box that will deal with the new HD format? Even if it is expensive and/or from one of the aftermarket outfits? I have no tv alternative and the DVRs that Dtv sells w/o Tivo are beneath contempt.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Extremely doubtful. Probably the only way it would happen is if just about everybody returned their R15 and HR20 DVRs, then Directv might catch on.
Nobody can make an after market receiver without Directv's permission (And they're not going to get it).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Highly unlikely you will ever see a TiVo powered unit, able to see DirecTV's MPEG-4 Stream.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

It's very unlikely unless either DTV's churn among DVR users skyrockets or TiVo wins their patent case against Echostar in a slam-dunk.


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## Fluffybear (Nov 10, 2000)

While doubtful, there is a (very-very) small glimmer of hope. If News Corp were to sell D* than we might just see a new Tivo powered unit (sometime before the end of this decade)

Tribune is looking at selling their assets and News Corp has been discussed as a possible buyer and may need to look at getting rid of D* in order to fund the purchase of Tribune.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

wmckee said:


> Hello,
> 
> Do you think there is any way that one will be able to buy a Directv Tivo box that will deal with the new HD format? Even if it is expensive and/or from one of the aftermarket outfits? I have no tv alternative and the DVRs that Dtv sells w/o Tivo are beneath contempt.


I don't know. With all the problems I have had with the 6.3a upgrade I might be willing to try the Dtv Dvr's. Neither of my HD Tivos have worked well since the upgrade. I am tired of my unit rebooting during a recording.


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## bbodin (Jan 21, 2004)

dimented said:


> I don't know. With all the problems I have had with the 6.3a upgrade I might be willing to try the Dtv Dvr's.


then you played right into their hands


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## Smuuth (Sep 21, 2005)

dimented said:


> I am tired of my unit rebooting during a recording.


If you have not already done so, you may want to try the "Clear Program Information and To Do List" that has been recommended in other posts. I still have the audio dropouts but my HR10-250 has stopped the random rebooting since I did that.


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## jeffstra (Oct 16, 2006)

Smuuth said:


> If you have not already done so, you may want to try the "Clear Program Information and To Do List" that has been recommended in other posts. I still have the audio dropouts but my HR10-250 has stopped the random rebooting since I did that.


Keep in mind that this is like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling your OS. You lose all your recordings and any other custom set ups. Its like when you opened the box and hooked it up. But it's fast again.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

I am going to try the clear and delete, but I need to catch up on my recordings first. I will hopefully get to it this weekend.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

dimented said:


> I don't know. With all the problems I have had with the 6.3a upgrade I might be willing to try the Dtv Dvr's. Neither of my HD Tivos have worked well since the upgrade. I am tired of my unit rebooting during a recording.


Not me.

HR10 is horrible, 12 dropouts during house.

Yet, HR20 requires 2 year commitment, is backordered, has TONS of bugs, and will require me to lose all my OTA. (Sorry, I watch more than the BIG FOUR.)

So buh bye, I'm canceling...


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## patg25 (Nov 25, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Not me.
> 
> HR10 is horrible, 12 dropouts during house.
> 
> ...


Yes, House was horrible to watch last night. But D* will fix this bug, too. What's the alternative, cable? The S3 is also big $$$ and is not working that well, either. The DVRs they give you are at least a generation behind the HR10, and are in the order of $10-$15 a month. So if you have 3 or more of these (like my house) it will get expensive, too.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

patg25 said:


> Yes, House was horrible to watch last night. But D* will fix this bug, too. What's the alternative, cable? The S3 is also big $$$ and is not working that well, either. The DVRs they give you are at least a generation behind the HR10, and are in the order of $10-$15 a month. So if you have 3 or more of these (like my house) it will get expensive, too.


Hmm, not really. My 3 DirecTiVo's and 1 HR10-250 should yield about $400 on ebay. So we're talking about $280 difference. Not that big $$$!

Then, I already pay for lifeline cable (with my cable modem), I plugged it in and get about 20 or so channels. Now we're talking about me SAVING about $42 a month from DirecTV's base package with the DVR fee. I will make up the difference in 6 months.

90% of what I watch is OTA, 100% of HD is OTA. So there's really no point in me staying with them...

Define not working well?? I haven't heard reports of the audio being interrupted 12 times for 20-30 seconds during a single show... I'm not going to use cablecard, so what isn't working well?


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> HR10 is horrible, 12 dropouts during house.
> 
> Yet, HR20 requires 2 year commitment, is backordered, has TONS of bugs, and will require me to lose all my OTA. (Sorry, I watch more than the BIG FOUR.)
> 
> So buh bye, I'm canceling...


I know how you feel. Right now if you want to stay with DirecTV it's just "wait and hope they fix the bugs with either of their HD or SD DVRs" (although my R10 seems to be working fine).

My other choices are Comcast's crappy Motorola DVR or the $$$/buggy S3 right now.

F*ing non-customer-focused companies all around is what we have right now. Please, for the love of god, can someone make a working, responsive HD DVR. Stop doing everything else until you get that.


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## patg25 (Nov 25, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Hmm, not really. My 3 DirecTiVo's and 1 HR10-250 should yield about $400 on ebay. So we're talking about $280 difference. Not that big $$$!
> 
> Then, I already pay for lifeline cable (with my cable modem), I plugged it in and get about 20 or so channels. Now we're talking about me SAVING about $42 a month from DirecTV's base package with the DVR fee. I will make up the difference in 6 months.
> 
> ...


Moving to Comcast with their crappy Motorola DVR (1 for me, 2 for kids) = $85/month after "turn in your dish" rebate. That will go up to $132 / month after 16 months. Another HD Receiver to replace exising one I own = 9.95 / month. I already have DSL much cheaper than cable would cost me; no benifit there. Currently D* costs me about $88. So any new Comcast bill will be higher than existing D* bill for roughly the same stuff (give or take an HD channel). Inferior equipment for more money. Even if I get $400 for my Tivos on e-bay (hard to tell), how much would I have to pay for the S3 subscription / cablecards / etc. I am only considering it since my viewing habits are 99% HD Locals (1% ESPN for Monday Night Football, but I don't subscribe to the HD package).

THERE IS NO GOOD OPTION!!!


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## Smuuth (Sep 21, 2005)

Smuuth said:


> If you have not already done so, you may want to try the "Clear Program Information and To Do List" that has been recommended in other posts. I still have the audio dropouts but my HR10-250 has stopped the random rebooting since I did that.





jeffstra said:


> Keep in mind that this is like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling your OS. You lose all your recordings and any other custom set ups. Its like when you opened the box and hooked it up. But it's fast again.


No it's not. "Clear and Delete Everything" does what you are talking about. "Clear Program Information and To Do List" does NOT delete any programs that are already recorded. It does delete any season passes you may have set and it clears the To Do list.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

D* was a cheaper option than Verizon FiOS TV as well.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

5thcrewman said:


> D* was a cheaper option than Verizon FiOS TV as well.


Not for me. I just converted to Fios-TV from D* and have 3 HD-DVR's in the house. FIOS doesn't charge you for an "HD Package" - you just get the HD channels. I'm paying about $15 less per month than I was with D* and I have added Stars and HD-DVRs in more rooms without paying outright cash for the DVRs or signing up for 2 more years like D* wanted me to do.

I still had 1 year on my committment with D* which costs me $12.50/month to get out of or $150 bucks, but hey since I saved about $15/month with FIOS, it was a no brainer.

I see no need to PAY CASH to LEASE a craptastic DVR from D* and get locked in for 2 years for fewer channels to basically beta test their HR20 for them, when I can get an equally craptastic DVR from FIOS and not have to shell out cash.

-h


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## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

Well that just sucks. A friend has one of the current Directv DVR's and the damned thing is just about a paperweight. When is the mpeg 4 thing going to happen and what will be offered in that format?


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## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

So FluffyBear was right? Any other thoughts on this subject? Looks as if sale will go through!


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## feldon23 (Mar 13, 2001)

The two criteria which must happen to reopen the door to a series 3 TiVo for DirecTV have happened:

* Rupert Murdoch's whinefest that he can't cheapen DirecTV enough to suit his needs turns into a sale

* Echostar and DirecTV owe TiVo big bucks for cloning their technology

Any financial advantage Rupert Murdoch might have gained by cloning TiVo has disappeared so we might as well get the Real Thing [TM].


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

It is technically more of a transfer of ownership, then a Sale.. (since both sides are going to scoot out of TAXes on the transaction), but that is a different topic.

There is no guarantee either way, that a change in ownership is going to change the situation with DirecTV/TiVo.


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## feldon23 (Mar 13, 2001)

Earl,

You've got a great forum over there on the HR20. I just wish there was an up-to-date TiVo vs. HR20 shootout topic which, in detail, gave what the HR20 does and doesn't do.

I read the R15 wishlist and 90% of the 100 or so items requested are features that the TiVo already has. Basically the impression I got is the R15 (and by extension the HR20) has a ton of rough edges and oversights that TiVo spent 8 years smoothing out.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me that my question is off-topic to your request or that the HR20 can't be discussed here.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

After they complete the next software rollout (since it is only in limited today).
We will probably do another comparison thread.

As there does need to be an updated one, as the HR20 has changed a bit since it's release.

And thanks for the comments on the forum.

The R15 != HR20; There is a lot that they share, but there is a lot that they don't.

There are probably a lot of "little things", but out of major functionality... there are only three.

1) Dual Live Buffers (which is the toggling between two lives shows)
2) Suggestions
3) Moderate/Advanced Wishlist functionality

Then the next "level"
1) 30s SKIP vs SLIP (the SLIP on the HR20 is extremely fast now)
2) TiVo/List Guide vs DirecTV/Grid 

Then you get into difference where the DTivo/DVR+ do things differently (some better, some worse in both directions).


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## feldon23 (Mar 13, 2001)

I don't use Suggestions or the dual live buffers, nor do I take a lot of advantage of wishlists, so I might be a good candidate. I just want reliable recording of a dozen season passes.

Is it really true that if I buy one from Best Buy for $299 and then cancel DirecTV, I am supposed to mail the receiver to DirecTV and relinquish ownership of it?


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

Have they fixed the problem with the R15 (May never have been a problem with the HR20) that you can't have a 2 Series Links for the same series on different channels?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

feldon23 said:


> I don't use Suggestions or the dual live buffers, nor do I take a lot of advantage of wishlists, so I might be a good candidate. I just want reliable recording of a dozen season passes.
> 
> Is it really true that if I buy one from Best Buy for $299 and then cancel DirecTV, I am supposed to mail the receiver to DirecTV and relinquish ownership of it?


Yep... that is how the "lease" program works right now.

You can try to have DirecTV confirm a price through them.
Then purchase it through Best Buy, and get a credit for the difference.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

kturcotte said:


> Have they fixed the problem with the R15 (May never have been a problem with the HR20) that you can't have a 2 Series Links for the same series on different channels?


Nope, that is still a problem on the R15.
It does not effect the HR20


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I think if the HR20 could just get Wishlists (Suggestions are nice, but not a deal breaker), I might actually consider switching.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

feldon23 said:


> * Echostar and DirecTV owe TiVo big bucks for cloning their technology


Echostar maybe. DirecTV (at least under Rupert) owes Tivo nothing for what features in their own DVRs may infrings TiVos patents, as the current agreement between the two excuses DirecTV for such infringement.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

feldon23 said:


> I just want reliable recording of a dozen season passes.


I'd probably wait a little while longer then, IMO. It's yet to be reliable from our experience, although I'm told they're working on it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

kturcotte said:


> I think if the HR20 could just get Wishlists (Suggestions are nice, but not a deal breaker), I might actually consider switching.


HR20 has "Searches" instead and you can autorecord them. So I could do a keyword search for "Camping" and set that to autorecord any program that has a keyword of camping in it (just like a wishlist).

One thing I really like is to combine a saved search with the one touch record. So I have a Saved Search (not autorecord) for Red Wings | Sports | Hockey.
I run that every 2 weeks or so and it will show me the complete list of games available. I can then just one touch record each game I want (and I find the HDNet ones easily this way). I can setup half a dozen games to record in less the 2 minutes.

The one bug with the autorecord searches right now is you can't limit the channels to just the ones you receive, it picks up all channels so it becomes a bit less usefull. Hopefully it's something they can correct now that they've got OTA out of the way.

If you are a "power user" of wishlists you'll probably be disappointed in the HR20 autorecord search. But then I'm not sure what that would be because I always used wishlists as a saved search anyway so the HR20 search functionality is perfect for how I use it.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

feldon23 said:


> I just want reliable recording of a dozen season passes.


FYI that I've got about 30 series links (season passes) and have only missed 1 recording in 3 months to the partial bug which appears to be fixed now.

You can always try out the HR20 and return it if you don't like it. But it is the future you'll eventually need to go to if you want to stick with HD from DirecTV so why not get it now and help shape the product over on DBSTalk? Keep your HR10's and other DirecTivo's purring along with the HR20 as just an additional receiver for now.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I don't use auto-record wishlists, I just go in once a week and have it search all of them. Can the HR20 do that, or must you do each one? They would have to fix it to only channels I receive.
Wasn't there a limit to the number of Series Links or number of programs scheduled to record at one time? Is that still there?
I actually have an HR20 sitting right beside me at the moment, but it's not activated, or even opened. They were suppose to send me a replacement HR10, and sent me that instead. I do get to keep my HR10 (It's only a small problem with it anyway), but was hoping for a 2nd HR10. A couple more software updates to the HR20, and I might actually have to check it out.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

There is still the limit of 50 SL's


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## dscott72 (Mar 30, 2006)

I know nothing is going to happen overnight. But with the news today that News Corp is doing a stock trade w/ Liberty Media and in doing so loosing control of DirecTv we can all cross our fingers, and email and write the hell out of the board of directors, that they will come to their senses and go back to an agreement with Tivo.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

dscott72 said:


> I know nothing is going to happen overnight. But with the news today that News Corp is doing a stock trade w/ Liberty Media and in doing so loosing control of DirecTv we can all cross our fingers, and email and write the hell out of the board of directors, that they will come to their senses and go back to an agreement with Tivo.


Even if by some really outside remote chance that happens you wouldn't see a new Tivo based DirecTV HD receiver for at least a couple years. These things take a long time to develop.

So basically don't hold your breath.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Even if by some really outside remote chance that happens you wouldn't see a new Tivo based DirecTV HD receiver for at least a couple years. These things take a long time to develop.
> 
> So basically don't hold your breath.


Tivo is of a modular design. Developing a MPEG-4 Tivo is nearly as simple as dropping a MPEG-4 decoder module into what is basically the original design for the S3 or the HR10. The S3 is basically a HR10 with the DVB tuners replaced by QAM tuners, and "DirecTV" removed from the graphics, plus some new features. The only reason the S3 took as long as it did was CC was up in the air, and the S3 basically sat there all but finished for some time before CC was settled.

If Tivo as a company saw the handwriting on the wall about MPEG-4, which they should have seen about the time the iTunes video store opened, they would have started then on the redesign, which means it could ship just a couple months after they make a deal with an MPEG-4 vendor. If DTV disclosed their M4 plans before they severed their Tivo hardware deal, Tivo may have been developing an M4 PVR even then, and it could be sitting there waiting for a M4 vendor right now.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I agree
retooling the S3 Tivo to work as a DTivo won't take all that long to do.
Remove the encoder, replace the QAM interface with a DTV compatible smart card reader.


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## dthreet (Jan 18, 2006)

I was thinking that the release notes on the HR10-250 said that with MPEG 4 it would be able to get the channels from the new AT9 Dish, but you could not record. I guess we will never get that update. I just wonder how there going to replace all the HR10-250's and MPEG 2 receivers. There is alot of units out there.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

That's the problem, and it explains why DTV is reluctant to put even more M2 equipment out there. DISH started a campaign to move everyone to "DISH500" about 6 or 7 years ago, and there are still a lot of legacy round-dish installs that are active subs. It's difficult to upset the applecart among subs who have regularly and loyally paid you every month, month after month, for that long.

The answer is a transitional STB. If you only sell or replace STBs that are capable of both M2 and M4, those don't need a changeout. The HR20 is a transitional STB (PVR). The earlier you start that plan, the earlier you can start to sunset the legacy M2 boxes. This would explain the fervor for the HR20, AT9, and SlimLine, and the abhorrence (by DTV) of the HR10 and Phase III.

Another arrow in the quiver is that the Ka changeover doesn't necessarily have to be choreographed with the M4 changeover. The new sats can be remapped by remote telemetry to M2 for a while, xponder by xponder, if necessary. If the old sats die before M2, they can roll with it.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

I think DTV is excused for three more years dating back to last April. The extended agreement amazingly came just days before EchoStar lost in Texas. Ultimately, I think they are still on the hook.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

dthreet said:


> I was thinking that the release notes on the HR10-250 said that with MPEG 4 it would be able to get the channels from the new AT9 Dish, but you could not record. I guess we will never get that update. I just wonder how there going to replace all the HR10-250's and MPEG 2 receivers. There is alot of units out there.


They are replacing them just fine already and there really aren't all that many HR10's out there, maybe 500K. This has been DirecTV's plan for over 3 years now, I think they might have the swapout figured out by now. 

It's actually pretty simple. Offer channels only available in MPEG4. Right now locals and RSNs. This already is getting tens of thousands to convert on their own. Then national MPEG4 HD next year with the new sats. Now the ball really gets rolling on convertions. Oh, SuperFan only in MPEG4 in 2007 (or at least for 2008)? Well, there is another big chunk. Then by mid 2008 you just shut off MPEG2 and the few left that don't have MPEG4 will just have to convert or lose out, their choice.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Tivo is of a modular design. Developing a MPEG-4 Tivo is nearly as simple as dropping a MPEG-4 decoder module into what is basically the original design for the S3 or the HR10. The S3 is basically a HR10 with the DVB tuners replaced by QAM tuners, and "DirecTV" removed from the graphics, plus some new features.


Tell that to Comcast who still doesn't have their Tivo DVR out over 2 years after a deal was struck.  

Ok guys, DirecTV just doesn't need Tivo. The HR20 is very solid. There is no great migration of people leaving DirecTV simply because they no longer have Tivo. Malone will see this and will see no need to get Tivo involved again and start paying them more licensing fees. People need to get over it, Tivo is gone on DirecTV.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> There is still the limit of 50 SL's


There is? (for the HR20 I'm assuming) what's the use of that?


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## TimGoodwin (Jun 20, 2003)

Earl any word on when Directv might enable the two tuners off one satellite in on the HR20?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

btwyx said:


> There is? (for the HR20 I'm assuming) what's the use of that?


I really don't know, and was surprised by that.
Since they increased every other "limit" in the system.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TimGoodwin said:


> Earl any word on when Directv might enable the two tuners off one satellite in on the HR20?


No... Nothing has really changed in that arena yet.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> I really don't know, and was surprised by that.
> Since they increased every other "limit" in the system.


Does the DirecTivo have a limit? One thing I can say in Directv's favor, lol, I remember when Dish Network first released their 501, there was a 25 item limit for the TO DO LIST lol Never even mind a limit on the number of "Season Passes" you could have.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

kturcotte said:


> Does the DirecTivo have a limit?


Not an explicit one, except it gets very slow to rearrange them. I've had upto about 130 season passes etc before now, and I had 60 when I tried to cut it down to the minimum. It looks like the HR20 wouldn't be right for me, even if I didn't insist on wanting a TiVo.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

btwyx said:


> Not an explicit one, except it gets very slow to rearrange them. I've had upto about 130 season passes etc before now, and I had 60 when I tried to cut it down to the minimum. It looks like the HR20 wouldn't be right for me, even if I didn't insist on wanting a TiVo.


I imagine there probably is a limit, but you'd have to be intentionally trying to find it lol
"I've got 400 Season Passes. Let's see if I can add another 100" lol


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Tell that to Comcast who still doesn't have their Tivo DVR out over 2 years after a deal was struck.  ...


That is actually a separate issue, based on the continuing dustup over CableCard II. Again, the Tivo models sat all but finished for many months waiting for CC to get their act together, and I'm not sure they ever did.



bonscott87 said:


> ...Ok guys, DirecTV just doesn't need Tivo. The HR20 is very solid...


The buzz I hear is just the opposite. Either way, stability is only one of the big things Tivo has going for it. User-friendliness is what sets Tivo head and shoulders above everything else. I've have had 9 different PVRs from 5 different vendors (10 if you count the HR20 I had for a week) and all were significantly easier to use than the HR20, even including those from DISH. Replay was the only thing close, but Replay is out of the HD arena and a company on shaky ground.

If the owners of the NDS boxes actually knew what they were missing, I think the exodus would be in full swing. If DTV offered the HR10 and the HR20 on a level playing field (equal price, equal channel capability, equal promotion) the HR10 would be in 20 to 30 times the number of homes as the HR20 after the first year, based on features, stability, and earned reputation alone.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> The buzz I hear is just the opposite.


Well, let's be honest here. I could say the same thing about Tivo just looking at this forum or the Series 3 forum. 



> If the owners of the NDS boxes actually knew what they were missing, I think the exodus would be in full swing. If DTV offered the HR10 and the HR20 on a level playing field (equal price, equal channel capability, equal promotion) the HR10 would be in 20 to 30 times the number of homes as the HR20 after the first year, based on features, stability, and earned reputation alone.


I'll just be honest here and this probably isn't the place for an HR20 debate as the mods don't like it. I've had Tivo since 2000 and still have 2 DirecTivo's. Huge Tivo fan. But I *much* prefer the interface/UI on the HR20. So much so I will eventually replace my DirecTivo's with more HR20's. It is so easy to use, so easy to pick up with very little instruction (took my wife all of 15 minutes to figure out how to record and play her shows). *Tivo's* interface is the one that feels clunky to me. Many that have had the HR20 for a while feel the same way, I've had mine over 3 months now. It really is just a breath of fresh air.

But then I went into the HR20 with an open mind, not a closed one. UI always is a personal preference but when you go in with the attitude that it sucks or has to suck before you even try it...well...you get a self fulfilling prophecy a lot of the time.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

bonscott87 said:


> Ok guys, DirecTV just doesn't need Tivo. The HR20 is very solid. There is no great migration of people leaving DirecTV simply because they no longer have Tivo.


How do you know? DirecTV missed their churn goal for this quarter. For all we know that's a Direct result of the decisions they've made with TiVo.



> The primary reason we did not really achieve our churn target for the quarter was really more internal execution, which ranges from execution in particular sales niches to issues like debugging new advanced set-top boxes for a particular segment of the box area.


http://media.seekingalpha.com/article/20173

DirecTV improved their involuntary and first year churn substantially, but their total churn remained virtually unchanged. That suggests that there was a substantial increase in voluntary churn - people dumping the service because they're unhappy.

That's in spite of the fact that most of their HD Tivo users and many of their SD Tivo users are under a service commitment. What's going to happen as those commitments expire? What will happen as more and more customers who have been happy with TiVo discover that it's no longer an option?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> ...I went into the HR20 with an open mind, not a closed one. UI always is a personal preference but when you go in with the attitude that it sucks or has to suck before you even try it...well...you get a self fulfilling prophecy a lot of the time.


I can't disagree at all with any of that, but what you say does sound like your mind might not be open to the possibility that none of that applies to my particular case. Not that you ever really implied that, but your comments at a minimum mean that the record needs to be set straight.

I can only tell you I also went to the HR20 with an open mind. I also wanted it to deliver, and would have welcomed some real competion for Tivo, which would have only made Tivo a better product in the end. But it takes more than an open mind to get folks to embrace a product. It still has to deliver, and for me, it failed miserably at that.

It seems that this issue really polarizes people. That's fine, to each his own. All points of view are valid. It seems that those who really feel that the Tivo interface makes a lot of sense have no time for the HR20, while those who were lukewarm to the Tivo interface in the first place seem to think the HR20 is just fine. I guess that actually makes sense. You seem to be fine with it, and I'm happy for you. I wouldn't f*** it with Rupert Murdoch's d***. But that does not invalidate your POV, in the slightest. Vanilla, and chocolate. No worries.

Now we know what camp each of us falls into.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

No prob. One other thing I am loving though is DirecTV having direct interaction with us over at DBSTalk. Like right now we are getting our second chance this week at a couple hour window to download the latest test version which enabled OTA and networking along with other fixes. It feels like I am actually helping the direction this receiver takes and they are listening.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I currently have an HR10, but only an SDTV. Directv is going to have to add wishlists to the HR20, or once I finally get an HDTV, I'm gone, headed for a Series 3.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

kturcotte said:


> Directv is going to have to add wishlists to the HR20, or once I finally get an HDTV, I'm gone, headed for a Series 3.


While the HR20 doesn't have wishlists (and it won't ever, it's a Tivo thing) it does have a "Saved search" which you can set to autorecord. So I can easily set a search for keyword "camping" and set that to autorecord anytime a program has camping in the title or description. Just like a wishlist.

Or I can do a search by title for "Heroes" to snag Heroes off both NBC and SciFi.

So I guess is really all depends on how you use the current Tivo wishlists. The "search" on the HR20 is already more then what I use/need so it replaces wishlists just dandy for me.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> While the HR20 doesn't have wishlists (and it won't ever, it's a Tivo thing) it does have a "Saved search" which you can set to autorecord. So I can easily set a search for keyword "camping" and set that to autorecord anytime a program has camping in the title or description. Just like a wishlist.
> 
> Or I can do a search by title for "Heroes" to snag Heroes off both NBC and SciFi.
> 
> So I guess is really all depends on how you use the current Tivo wishlists. The "search" on the HR20 is already more then what I use/need so it replaces wishlists just dandy for me.


We have an HR20 as well as the HR10, but my wife is the main user of the new DVR. In my limited playing with it, I don't think you can search across all saved searches as you can with the Tivo...which is how I mainly use wishlists to look for programming of interest (I rarely do auto-records). Am I wrong here?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> We have an HR20 as well as the HR10, but my wife is the main user of the new DVR. In my limited playing with it, I don't think you can search across all saved searches as you can with the Tivo...which is how I mainly use wishlists to look for programming of interest (I rarely do auto-records). Am I wrong here?


That is probably true. I didn't even know you could do that with the Directivo but I rarely used wishlists at all.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bwaldron said:


> We have an HR20 as well as the HR10, but my wife is the main user of the new DVR. In my limited playing with it, I don't think you can search across all saved searches as you can with the Tivo...which is how I mainly use wishlists to look for programming of interest (I rarely do auto-records). Am I wrong here?


No, I don't think so.

I personally don't use auto-records (on either a Tivo or the HR20) but that's just me. For example I have a search on the HR20 for "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey. I pull that up every 2 weeks and then with the one touch record I can schedule to record half a dozen hockey games in less then a minute.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> No, I don't think so.
> 
> I personally don't use auto-records (on either a Tivo or the HR20) but that's just me. For example I have a search on the HR20 for "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey. I pull that up every 2 weeks and then with the one touch record I can schedule to record half a dozen hockey games in less then a minute.


Yep, that's what I do as well. Nice w/ the Tivo to do all of my searches at once, rather than one at a time, but not a deal-breaker by any means.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

I don't use auto-record either, but I have about 110 wishlists that I search once every Monday. I don't even want to think how long that would take doing each by themselves. Also, not sure if this is different on the HR20 as opposed to the R15, but how do I create a "wish list" for something that's not even on yet? On my HR10, I have a lot of wishlists for movies that are currently in the theater, that I'll forget about once they're on the movie channels. I just went downstairs and tried to do a "wishlist" for the movie Eragon, and it wouldn't let me. The HR10 did.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

kturcotte said:


> I don't use auto-record either, but I have about 110 wishlists that I search once very Monday. I don't even want to think how long that would take doing each by themselves. Also, not sure if this is different on the HR20 as opposed to the R15, but how do I create a "wish list" for something that's not even on yet? On my HR10, I have a lot of wishlists for movies that are currently in the theater, that I'll forget about once they're on the movie channels. I just went downstairs and tried to do a "wishlist" for the movie Eragon, and it wouldn't let me. The HR10 did.


Try it as a keyword. I've tested that before by searching by keyword and you can autorecord it even if nothing is in the guide now. I'll bet you can't do it as a title search.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

That did work, and I was happy to see I could restrict it to movies too. The DVR+ receivers are *slowly* inching their way up on my usability scale. Anyway to do a "wishlist" for an actor that's not in the list (Like I can with the HR10)? Honestly, if I could do that, have them all search at once, and restrict them to only channels I receive, I'd at least be willing to play with the HR20.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> No, I don't think so.
> 
> I personally don't use auto-records (on either a Tivo or the HR20) but that's just me. For example I have a search on the HR20 for "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey. I pull that up every 2 weeks and then with the one touch record I can schedule to record half a dozen hockey games in less then a minute.


How do you handle padding? Do the games never run long?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> How do you handle padding? Do the games never run long?


If the game scheduled is only 2 and half hours I add an extra 30 minutes just like on a Tivo. In this case I won't one touch record, I'll just select the game and add 30 minutes padding. Thus move on to the next game. So very much like a Tivo wishlist used in this matter but less buttons to push.

Or I could just one touch record to quickly get every game and then I can go into the To Do list and add padding as needed. It's probably quicker to just add the padding at the time of recording setup though. Again, very similar to your options on a Tivo.

Another real quick way to record on a single channel, say HBO. Bring up the guide, left arrow to highlight the channel number and hit info. It will take 15-20 seconds to bring up the list. But now you have a list view of the entire guide data for that channel. Now I can one touch record all the movies I want over the next 2 weeks pretty quickly. Note that there is a bit of a delay in one touch record in the info view vs. the guide but it's not too bad (for me anyway).


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> If the game scheduled is only 2 and half hours I add an extra 30 minutes just like on a Tivo. In this case I won't one touch record, I'll just select the game and add 30 minutes padding. Thus move on to the next game. So very much like a Tivo wishlist used in this matter but less buttons to push.


Sorry, that's nothing like a tivo ARWL. Less buttons? You could set an ARWL for your team, and never have to push a button again.


bonscott87 said:


> Or I could just one touch record to quickly get every game and then I can go into the To Do list and add padding as needed. It's probably quicker to just add the padding at the time of recording setup though. Again, very similar to your options on a Tivo.


Sorry again, but that's nothing like using a tivo ARWL. Set it up once, and then let it work.


bonscott87 said:


> Another real quick way to record on a single channel, say HBO. Bring up the guide, left arrow to highlight the channel number and hit info. It will take 15-20 seconds to bring up the list. But now you have a list view of the entire guide data for that channel. Now I can one touch record all the movies I want over the next 2 weeks pretty quickly. Note that there is a bit of a delay in one touch record in the info view vs. the guide but it's not too bad (for me anyway).


I'm not sure what your point is here. You can do the same thing on a tivo, save for the one touch record thing. If you use padding for this, that one touch thing becomes useless again.

The bottom line is that the r15 and hr20 are a woeful step backwards in terms of search capability. No one could seriously suggest otherwise.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> Sorry, that's nothing like a tivo ARWL. Less buttons? You could set an ARWL for your team, and never have to push a button again.
> Sorry again, but that's nothing like using a tivo ARWL. Set it up once, and then let it work.I'm not sure what your point is here. You can do the same thing on a tivo, save for the one touch record thing. If you use padding for this, that one touch thing becomes useless again.
> 
> The bottom line is that the r15 and hr20 are a woeful step backwards in terms of search capability. No one could seriously suggest otherwise.


I was simply answering the question of what you can do on the HR20. That's all.

And it's obvious that I'm not comparing this to an ARWL as I said I never use them. Again, I was answering a direct question on the functionality. You *can* to an autorecord search on an HR20, but again it's something I don't do so once again I was just answering the question asked about how *I* use the feature. Others may think I'm dumb and just use autorecord. I personally don't like autorecord on Tivo or the HR20.

Methinks you need to calm down and not see things that aren't there in my recent posts in this thread.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

I'm very calm, but thanks for your concern.

I agree with the original post in this thread, that it would be a good thing to be able to choose to use tivo powered mpeg4 equipment, rather than the boxes currently being offered. I simply cannot do the things I can do with a tivo on the new boxes. Primarily, this is because of the dumbing down of the search function.

Like the poster who has 110 WLs, I have had, for over 5 years now, a rather extensive list of wishlists. My list has at times been over 225 items, mostly movies, and right now is about 180 items long. This is simply impossible to do on the new boxes. I can't even begin to tell you how useful this function has been for me, finding countless programs on subjects I'm interested in, which I would have never known about otherwise. And D* simply eliminated this functionality. 25 recent finds? No saved finds? No batch searches?Good grief!

And sports teams are another thing. WLs are the only way to automatically record all of your favorite team's games. You may prefer to check a find every week and manually set games to record. To me, after 5 years of having it done automatically for me, I just shake my head and wonder why. D* simply eliminated this functionality as well.

In the process, they eliminated me as a customer. Maybe the new owner will see the benefit of choices in equipment, just as Comcast and other cable companies have.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> And sports teams are another thing. WLs are the only way to automatically record all of your favorite team's games. You may prefer to check a find every week and manually set games to record. To me, after 5 years of having it done automatically for me, I just shake my head and wonder why.


ARWL's never worked well for me and sports with the first versions of the wishlist oh so long ago (I even remember a day when Tivo didn't have wishlists). Thus I got used to not using it. Possible it was fixed in later Tivo versions but I was already used to not using it and never noticed as it wasn't critical to my needs. Just because it's a top priority to you doesn't mean it is for others.

I can shake my head at 180 wishlist as well. I just don't have that much time to watch TV. I have perhaps 25 season passes and 2 saved searches. But I understand that TV watching is huge with some people and so I accept that, there is nothing wrong with it. So yes, if that is your #1 feature you need then the new D* non-Tivo DVRs aren't for you at this time.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> ARWL's never worked well for me and sports with the first versions of the wishlist oh so long ago (I even remember a day when Tivo didn't have wishlists). Thus I got used to not using it. Possible it was fixed in later Tivo versions but I was already used to not using it and never noticed as it wasn't critical to my needs. Just because it's a top priority to you doesn't mean it is for others.


Though I don't much use auto-record wishlists, the ones I do use work fine.



bonscott87 said:


> I can shake my head at 180 wishlist as well. I just don't have that much time to watch TV. I have perhaps 25 season passes and 2 saved searches. But I understand that TV watching is huge with some people and so I accept that, there is nothing wrong with it. So yes, if that is your #1 feature you need then the new D* non-Tivo DVRs aren't for you at this time.


Having a lot of wishlists does not mean watching a huge amount of TV. I have quite a few wishlists (not auto-record) and I check my batch of wishlists periodically to locate programming of interest to me. At any given time, only a small percentage of the wishlists may find anything...but when they do, it's often something that I wouldn't have found otherwise.

Rich search/wishlist functionality is quite important to many people, and should be improved by D* (though after core functionality is bulletproof).


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bwaldron said:


> Rich search/wishlist functionality is quite important to many people, and should be improved by D* (though after core functionality is bulletproof).


I don't think anyone would argue with that. Once the main platform is really stable, OTA is out of the way and the networking thing down then they can work on the search functionality as well as other things.

I honestly don't think anyone claims that the HR20 search function is near as powerful as the Tivo wishlist, I sure don't. But for many, including myself, it's plenty good enough for our uses. For those that it's not good enough then hop on over to DBSTalk and let DirecTV know what improvements you'd like to see.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> ARWL's never worked well for me and sports with the first versions of the wishlist oh so long ago (I even remember a day when Tivo didn't have wishlists). Thus I got used to not using it. Possible it was fixed in later Tivo versions but I was already used to not using it and never noticed as it wasn't critical to my needs. Just because it's a top priority to you doesn't mean it is for others.


And, just because it's a low priority to you doesn't mean it is for others. Unfortunately, it does seem apparent that the number of Directivo customers who take good advantage of wishlists is low enough that D* feels comfortable in just throwing us under the bus. 


bonscott87 said:


> I can shake my head at 180 wishlist as well. I just don't have that much time to watch TV. I have perhaps 25 season passes and 2 saved searches. But I understand that TV watching is huge with some people and so I accept that, there is nothing wrong with it.


The whole point of so many WLs is to be more selective in what we watch. So, although my wife and I have that many WLs and many SPs, we actually spend less time watching TV, and find it more rewarding when we do watch. It's not like we have 180 SPs recording new episodes all the time, which we're forced to watch. It's to find appealing programs which we might be interested in, and can then choose to record or not. It's too bad more people don't understand that. You should try it, you might like it.


bonscott87 said:


> So yes, if that is your #1 feature you need then the new D* non-Tivo DVRs aren't for you at this time.


On that we agree.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

bwaldron said:


> Though I don't much use auto-record wishlists, the ones I do use work fine.
> 
> Having a lot of wishlists does not mean watching a huge amount of TV. I have quite a few wishlists (not auto-record) and I check my batch of wishlists periodically to locate programming of interest to me. At any given time, only a small percentage of the wishlists may find anything...but when they do, it's often something that I wouldn't have found otherwise.
> 
> Rich search/wishlist functionality is quite important to many people, and should be improved by D* (though after core functionality is bulletproof).


I have quite a few wishlists for movies I want to see that are currently in the theater. I see a commercial or something shows a movie I'm interested in, I'll forget about it once it hits the movie channels, so I go in and make a wishlist for it, check all of them once a week, and if it pops up, I've usually forgotten why I wanted that movie, but I know I did at one time. I don't use auto record though.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> I don't think anyone would argue with that. Once the main platform is really stable, OTA is out of the way and the networking thing down then they can work on the search functionality as well as other things..


There has never been even the slightest hint of any improvements even being contemplated for the non-tivo dvrs. I, and others, raised this issue 13 months ago, in the earliest days of the release of the r15. In various forums, publicly and privately, not once has it ever been acknowledged as something that needed improvement. I just don't believe that they think it's an important feature, and I don't believe that any improvements will be seen any time soon. Ever, actually.


bonscott87 said:


> I honestly don't think anyone claims that the HR20 search function is near as powerful as the Tivo wishlist, I sure don't. But for many, including myself, it's plenty good enough for our uses. For those that it's not good enough then hop on over to DBSTalk and let DirecTV know what improvements you'd like to see.


Been there, done that. I think it's a fruitless excercise. Oh well, my TiVo Series3s work just fine, thank you.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bwaldron said:


> Though I don't much use auto-record wishlists, the ones I do use work fine.
> 
> Having a lot of wishlists does not mean watching a huge amount of TV. I have quite a few wishlists (not auto-record) and I check my batch of wishlists periodically to locate programming of interest to me. At any given time, only a small percentage of the wishlists may find anything...but when they do, it's often something that I wouldn't have found otherwise.
> 
> Rich search/wishlist functionality is quite important to many people, and should be improved by D* (though after core functionality is bulletproof).


You and I are on the same page. Sadly for us, I think there are too few of us to matter to D*.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> And, just because it's a low priority to you doesn't mean it is for others. Unfortunately, it does seem apparent that the number of Directivo customers who take good advantage of wishlists is low enough that D* feels comfortable in just throwing us under the bus.


I have never said that!! Did you actually read my posts or are you blind? All I did was simply answer a question posed by another person about how I used the search function. I simply stated that I...personaly...just me...don't use autorecord. Never once, not once have I said that ARWL isn't an important feature. Not once. Please do not put words into my mouth.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> The whole point of so many WLs is to be more selective in what we watch. So, although my wife and I have that many WLs and many SPs, we actually spend less time watching TV, and find it more rewarding when we do watch. It's not like we have 180 SPs recording new episodes all the time, which we're forced to watch. It's to find appealing programs which we might be interested in, and can then choose to record or not. It's too bad more people don't understand that. You should try it, you might like it.


I completely understand. It's just not something that I or my wife have a need for. I personally find out about new programs from podcasts. And as I've tried to say but yet you don't seem to understand, just because I personally have no need for a feature doesn't mean it's not important or that it's not a key feature to have. I have never said that. Really wish you'd quit attacking me for simply answering a question about functionality.


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## ad301 (Dec 21, 2001)

bonscott87 said:


> Methinks you need to calm down...





bonscott87 said:


> ...are you blind?





bonscott87 said:


> Really wish you'd quit attacking me...


Wow. I'm attacking you? Because I express an opinion you don't agree with?

I think I'll just let this go. You seem to be taking this discussion a little too personally.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

ad301 said:


> Wow. I'm attacking you? Because I express an opinion you don't agree with?
> 
> I think I'll just let this go. You seem to be taking this discussion a little too personally.


I only got upset because you kept accusing me of things that I never said when I was actually agreeing with you. But yes, discussion is over.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Apropos of nothing, this brings a song to mind:


> The time for talking's over now,
> I guess it's time to let you go.
> But I don't,
> no,
> I don't mind at all.


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## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

I now have first hand experience with the MPEG-4 Directv HD Tivo box. One of my HR10-250s died and Directv sent me an HR20 as a replacement. It does not have suggestions, cannot switch between tuners, No dual live buffers, have spent many hours on the phone with tech support, and so on. In addition, the box constantly tries to record shows on channels I do not receive, the useless lights on the front panel are a distraction and the box constantly locks up. Anyone heard anything about Tivos place in the new Directv?


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## HofstraJet (Jul 19, 2001)

wmckee said:


> I now have first hand experience with the MPEG-4 Directv HD Tivo box. One of my HR10-250s died and Directv sent me an HR20 as a replacement. It does not have suggestions, cannot switch between tuners, No dual live buffers, have spent many hours on the phone with tech support, and so on. In addition, the box constantly tries to record shows on channels I do not receive, the useless lights on the front panel are a distraction and the box constantly locks up. Anyone heard anything about Tivos place in the new Directv?


Uhhh....the HR20 does NOT run TiVo software. Go here for a discussion of the HR20: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


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## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

Let me abbreviate my earlier post: Anyone heard anything new about an expanded Tivo position in the new Directv?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

wmckee said:


> Let me abbreviate my earlier post: Anyone heard anything new about an expanded Tivo position in the new Directv?


No, it's not going to happen.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> wmckee said:
> 
> 
> > Let me abbreviate my earlier post: Anyone heard anything new about an expanded Tivo position in the new Directv?
> ...


But ask again in July after Liberty has assumed control ...


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> But ask again in July after Liberty has assumed control ...


Why? Even if they made a change it would be at least 2 years before you'd see any such box.

If the HR20 is a pile by fall then perhaps a small chance, but again you're still way out from anything to market.
If the HR20 is humming along just fine then less then 0 chance.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Why? Even if they made a change it would be at least 2 years before you'd see any such box.
> 
> If the HR20 is a pile by fall then perhaps a small chance, but again you're still way out from anything to market.
> If the HR20 is humming along just fine then less then 0 chance.


Why? Because you unequivocally said it was not going to happen. You don't know that. I don't know that. So asking again in July when there is new ownership is, IMHO, the next prudent time to begin asking if TiVo and DirecTV will again have a partnership. A new owner means a new philosophy. The new owner also does not like Rupert, and may choose to not want to contribute to Rupe's coffers by continuing to pay NDS. That could mean somewhere down the road that Malone looks for alternatives to NDS, just as Rupe looked for alternatives to TiVo. Does it mean TiVo is that alternative? No. But ask again in July. Even if it takes two years, it does not mean "it's not going to happen."


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> Why? Because you unequivocally said it was not going to happen. You don't know that. I don't know that. So asking again in July when there is new ownership is, IMHO, the next prudent time to begin asking if TiVo and DirecTV will again have a partnership. A new owner means a new philosophy. The new owner also does not like Rupert, and may choose to not want to contribute to Rupe's coffers by continuing to pay NDS. That could mean somewhere down the road that Malone looks for alternatives to NDS, just as Rupe looked for alternatives to TiVo. Does it mean TiVo is that alternative? No. But ask again in July. Even if it takes two years, it does not mean "it's not going to happen."


FYI that the HR20 is not from NDS, it's in house. The R15 was NDS technology code base.


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## wmckee (Mar 16, 2002)

I understand that TiVo is going for the high end market. Perhaps there is a way that the HR20 or whatever Dtv is selling will be the basic model and they could partner up on a series 3 for the high end customer.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> FYI that the HR20 is not from NDS, it's in house. The R15 was NDS technology code base.


I believe you are conflating hardware and software.

To the best of my knowledge, the HR20 hardware is 100% NDS. The software was "in house" but surely built using NDS SDKs and god knows how much "example" code.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

bizzy said:


> I believe you are conflating hardware and software.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the HR20 hardware is 100% NDS. The software was "in house" but surely built using NDS SDKs and god knows how much "example" code.


Incorrect.

Pace makes the HR20 (as in hardware).
The internal software is in house to DirecTV.

Do a bit of research on DBSTalk and you'll get more details if you wish.

The R15 was NDS software code. Perhaps that is the confusion.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

bizzy said:


> I believe you are *conflating* hardware and software.


From the Merriam-Wester Online Dictionary:
conflate
One entry found for conflate.
Main Entry: con·flate
Pronunciation: k&n-'flAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): con·flat·ed; con·flat·ing
Etymology: Latin conflatus, past participle of conflare to blow together, fuse, from com- + flare to blow -- more at BLOW
1 a : to bring together : FUSE b : CONFUSE
2 : to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole

Visit TCF and expand your vocabulary.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bidger said:



> Visit TCF and expand your vocabulary.


Yeah, I had to look it up earlier on dictionary.com.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Pace makes the HR20 (as in hardware).
> The internal software is in house to DirecTV.


Sorry, brain fart. You are correct.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Nearly 50 years on the planet and I don't recall hearing or seeing the word before today.

Kudos bizzy!


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

bidger said:


> Nearly 50 years on the planet and I don't recall hearing or seeing the word before today.
> 
> Kudos bizzy!


blame it on too much coffee


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

Or as Milli Vanilli once sang (er, lip-synched) _Blame it on the rain_.


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