# Ads coming soon to a paused TiVo menu near you



## chuvak (Jul 22, 2006)

> This should make a lot of people unhappy. According to a press release issued today, TiVo will now offer ad space on its pause menu. Designed to outsmart those who fast-forward through the ads (we assume that's almost everyone at this point, right?) buyers will be able to target viewers of a specific show, or they can opt to "cast a wider net" and advertise within genres or keywords of program descriptions. Even if this means we'll be seeing ads for Shrute Farms beets during The Office, we're still going to hold out hope for the TiVo version of Adblock.
> 
> [Via Zatz Not Funny]
> 
> Source


This doesn't thrill me.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

Hmmm...this is making a Myth box look a whole lot better to me.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That sucks. Sometimes I pause thing so that I can read a sign or subtitled dialog that went by to fast. If I have to clear an ad out of the way every time I pause for this purpose it's really going to annoy me. :down:

Dan


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

chuvak said:


> This doesn't thrill me.


The discussion has already been started
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=412720


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

TolloNodre said:


> Hmmm...this is making a Myth box look a whole lot better to me.


Except for being unable to record any premium channels or content of course. No cablecard support in mythtv.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> That sucks. Sometimes I pause thing so that I can read a sign or subtitled dialog that went by to fast. If I have to clear an ad out of the way every time I pause for this purpose it's really going to annoy me. :down:
> 
> Dan


You can hit the clear key (which is probably what you mean by 'clear an ad'). I have to do that already to get the time bar out of the way. I haven't seen this in action yet, and don't think I'll like it, but I do think people are blowing it way out of proportion, if the clear key works as it does now.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

wkearney99 said:


> Except for being unable to record any premium channels or content of course. No cablecard support in mythtv.


Well that would mean no encrypted cable channels at all, eh? Not just premiums, but basically, in many areas, it means no cable networks at all.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

mattack said:


> You can hit the clear key (which is probably what you mean by 'clear an ad'). I have to do that already to get the time bar out of the way. I haven't seen this in action yet, and don't think I'll like it, but I do think people are blowing it way out of proportion, if the clear key works as it does now.


Here's an example for you.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

NBD in my book, as long as rates stay steady


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

wkearney99 said:


> Except for being unable to record any premium channels or content of course. No cablecard support in mythtv.


Very true. But I'm considering going back to strictly OTA once my Comcast 'intro' rate gets jacked sky high. If I can't get Comcast to keep me on the low rate I'll probably bail. And my TiVo subscription renews about the same time. Although the TiVo subscription is cheaper than having to build a new Myth box...decisions...decisions...


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

..by disconnecting TiVo from your network and going back to dial-up. I'm sure that will be too great a price for some. Not for me.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

TolloNodre said:


> Hmmm...this is making a Myth box look a whole lot better to me.


You can record *some* if not all protected content if you like flaky Firewire with a cable STB (or all of it if you want to do equally lame Hauppauge HD-PVR recording from an STB). 
So no high-def recordings of anything other than locals on my Myth box, which is why I also have the Tivo HD.

Yes, they still have us by the nuts right now if you want to record the whole package.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I'm really looking forward to watching RoyK have a meltdown over this.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

BlackBetty said:


> I'm really looking forward to watching RoyK have a meltdown over this.


You missed it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Indeed; Roy seems to have been in continual meltdown regarding TiVo, gosh, for as long as I've been chatting with him.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

Those types of ads don't bother me. If the thing is paused I am usually not watching anything and if I want to see underneath it (the slide at the end of Big Bang Theory comes to mind) I hope a clear will allow me to see it.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

bicker said:


> Indeed; Roy seems to have been in continual meltdown regarding TiVo, gosh, for as long as I've been chatting with him.


I 'melt down' over two things - buggy software and SPAM.

Lately the software releases have been relatively bugless. Netflix is nice.

The SPAM just keeps growing and growing.


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## Yellowtoes (Nov 26, 2003)

jlb said:


> NBD in my book, as long as rates stay steady


Understood, if this is helping subsidize the viewing of new, monthly TIVO users. But I paid a hefty lifetime subscription fee, and shouldn't have to suffer from ever-growing clutter. It seems to be that selling lifetime subscription and then giving increasingly compromised service amounts to bait-and-switch.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Yellowtoes said:


> Understood, if this is helping subsidize the viewing of new, monthly TIVO users. But I paid a hefty lifetime subscription fee, and shouldn't have to suffer from ever-growing clutter. It seems to be that selling lifetime subscription and then giving increasingly compromised service amounts to bait-and-switch.


except that the reliance on ads for revenue is clearly ststed in TOS and also something that has been around on TiVo for many years now. 
You also have far more features on your TiVo than were present 4 years ago. Ads help pay for that as well


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

I just cant wait till there is an alternative to TIVO, I dont think we should have to pay for a subscription and see ads. I dont care what the TOS says. This is the wrong direction for tivo, and it will hurt them later. There will be no difference between tivo and the comcast dvr.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> I just cant wait till there is an alternative to TIVO, I dont think we should have to pay for a subscription and see ads. I dont care what the TOS says. This is the wrong direction for tivo, and it will hurt them later. There will be no difference between tivo and the comcast dvr.


Oh please, enough with the Chicken Little nonsense. Especially when there already IS a Comcast DVR that's based on Tivo (granted, not without its own issues).

You're more than welcome to vote with your wallet. Ditch Tivo in protest. Or if you're not ready to actually go negative, then how about getting an upgrade to a TivoHD? Or buy some as gifts for friends or family.

Here's a thought, the advertisers depend on results. Ignore the ads and encourage others to ignore them too. Take the incentive out of it. Even better, take the time to call and write to Tivo and the advertisers expressing your displeasure. Whinging bits online cost nothing and are worth even less.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Well said. The sentiment "there _oughta _be what I want there to be" is a bit Pollyana-ish. People have been saying this for five years, at least. How is it that people have had such a hard time drawing the most _logical_, simplest explanation about why things _remain_ *not *the way we would want them to be?


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bicker said:


> Well said. The sentiment "there _oughta _be what I want there to be" is a bit Pollyana-ish. People have been saying this for five years, at least. How is it that people have had such a hard time drawing the most _logical_, simplest explanation about why things _remain_ *not *the way we would want them to be?


Because they can go elsewhere. I am sure Sony, and alot of companies have plans for a Tivo replacement, this is just tivo "buying" themselves time. Tivo will not be able to compete when the large manufactures start producing DVRs. But for now Tivo is the big fish. Wait under it starts raining...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> Because they can go elsewhere.


Obviously, they *can't*. Strike one.



Videodrome said:


> I am sure Sony, and alot of companies have plans for a Tivo replacement


Sony *used* to offer a DVR. They discontinued it. Strike two.



Videodrome said:


> Tivo will not be able to compete when the large manufactures start producing DVRs.


Motorola and Cisco aren't *big *enough for you? Strike three.

The big guys, who have been making DVRs for a long time, still refuse to offer a product for sale to the general public. Rather than ignoring the reality, you should ask yourself why that is the case.


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## jeepguy_1980 (Mar 2, 2008)

Videodrome said:


> I dont think we should have to pay for a subscription and see ads.


Isn't cable a paid subscription with ads?


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bicker said:


> Obviously, they *can't*. Strike one.
> 
> Sony *used* to offer a DVR. They discontinued it. Strike two.
> 
> ...


Bicker, your name is too fitting. Sony discontinued it, BECAUSE it was windows media center format. Now that Tru2way is available .Tivo if they were smart, better expect competition. Motorola and Cisco are small fish compared to other product makers, and where does tiny tivo fit in there. The reality had to do with the stupid and careless implementation of cablecard, sony even said, and so did a batch of other manufactures. Bicker you dont know everything. The high horse attitude just devalues your statements.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> Isn't cable a paid subscription with ads?


And your point is ?


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

jeepguy_1980 said:


> Isn't cable a paid subscription with ads?


Back in the late 70s when I first got cable my neighbors thought I was CRAZY to pay for television. Why pay for it when you get it all for free with an antenna? they would ask me.

I pointed out all these channels with NO COMMERCIALS (yes, cable actually had that way back when) - they just shrugged and said "I like some of the commercials". 

Of course now I hear the same about satellite radio - "no commercials!" they say. Yea, just wait 2 or 3 decades....haha...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> Bicker, your name is too fitting. Sony discontinued it, BECAUSE it was windows media center format. Now that Tru2way is available .


Are you going to finish that sentence? Please provide a link to the press release where they announced that they're going to get back into the DVR market.



Videodrome said:


> Tivo if they were smart, better expect competition.


I doubt TiVo has the bandwidth (pardon the pun) to do anything specific regarding "expecting competition". From what I can tell, they're already doing the best they can with the resources they have available.



Videodrome said:


> Motorola and Cisco are small fish compared to other product makers


Cisco Systems, Inc. is a multinational corporation with more than 66,000 employees and annual revenue of $39 *B*illion as of 2008. If you call that small then you have no sense of perspective.



Videodrome said:


> and where does tiny tivo fit in there.


If your wet dream ever actually occurs, then TiVo will surely be bought out by a larger company. I suspect that was always part of the company's strategy -- to become a very valuable source of experience and expertise, so that if ever a large company was looking to get into this space, they'd pay a high premium for TiVo.

However, despite all your blathering, there is actually no indications of what you claiming is about to happen. Until you provide proof, you're just blowing smoke...



Videodrome said:


> The reality had to do with the stupid and careless implementation of cablecard, sony even said, and so did a batch of other manufactures. Bicker you dont know everything. The high horse attitude just devalues your statements.


... and rudely at that. Put up or shut up: Show your proof that big companies care to get into this market.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

btw Bicker i didnt even bother to read your last post. 
add to ignore.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

We have the ignore function here. Select a user, then "View public profile". From there, you can select "Add x to your Ignore List" -- right side, second black bar from the top. It doesn't completely remove them, but it hides their text unless you click on "View Post"

And yeah, bicker is on my list. I will sometimes View Post him when I think it's not going to be a corporatist rant... so, not in this thread.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

wmcbrine said:


> We have the ignore function here. Select a user, then "View public profile". From there, you can select "Add x to your Ignore List" -- right side, second black bar from the top. It doesn't completely remove them, but it hides their text unless you click on "View Post"
> 
> And yeah, bicker is on my list. I will sometimes View Post him when I think it's not going to be a corporatist rant... so, not in this thread.


Thanks for your help, i just found it. a thousand thanksyous...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

A company pays for a TV ad. That ad helps pay for the program. First DVRs like tivo makes it easy for us to skip the ads that pay for the program. Now tivo wants to insert ads. 

I understand tivo is looking for additional sources of revenue. I understand selling ads is one such source. I have some question regarding the ethics of a system that essentially replaces an ad that paid for the program with a tivo supplied ad.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> btw Bicker i didnt even bother to read your last post.












Remarkably, ignoring the reality doesn't make it go away.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> A company pays for a TV ad. That ad helps pay for the program. First DVRs like tivo makes it easy for us to skip the ads that pay for the program. Now tivo wants to insert ads.
> 
> I understand tivo is looking for additional sources of revenue. I understand selling ads is one such source. I have some question regarding the ethics of a system that essentially replaces an ad that paid for the program with a tivo supplied ad.


Yes, but note that the ethical dilemma stems from skipping the ads in the first place. Personally, I'm okay with it. 

Note that TiVo isn't really effecting a replacement. It is allowing you to skip the ads, and then it is putting ads in place when paused. Note that you get those ads even if the recording is paused in the middle of a scene -- it is not related to the advertising you skipped yourself.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

A couple of posters are looking for an alternative to tivo. Almost every cable and satellite provider offer a DVR. They can offer the DVR at an attractive bundle price. The provider doesn't have any incremental cost to provide guide data. The quality of those DVRs are continuing to improve. Those (few) people using OTA have PC based solutions available to them.

Tivo is trying to fill a niche market, those customers willing to pay a premium price for a superior product. I'd be shocked if there are enough potential customers to motivate an additional company into entering the market. Moxi decided not to market direct to the customer.

Given the present state of the economy I'd put the probability at near zero.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> Yes, but note that the ethical dilemma stems from skipping the ads in the first place. Personally, I'm okay with it.
> 
> Note that TiVo isn't really effecting a replacement. It is allowing you to skip the ads, and then it is putting ads in place when paused. Note that you get those ads even if the recording is paused in the middle of a scene -- it is not related to the advertising you skipped yourself.


But there have been posts, I'm not sure if it was a rumor or just speculation, that tivo might have some kind of ad (might just be a still image) anytime we use the 30 second skip.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> A couple of posters are looking for an alternative to tivo. Almost every cable and satellite provider offer a DVR.


The big blow-ups with regard to advertising on some of those DVRs happened a couple of years ago, if I recall correctly. They now have advertising taking up the bottom row of most program guide screens.



lew said:


> Tivo is trying to fill a niche market, those customers willing to pay a premium price for a superior product. I'd be shocked if there are enough potential customers to motivate an additional company into entering the market. Moxi decided not to market direct to the customer.


That actually isn't true. Moxi introduced a new HD DVR yesterday, I believe. However, your original point is still valid: TiVo and Moxi are aiming for this niche market. They could drive each other completely out of profitability. I doubt they will. Rather, they'll offer the product in a manner they believe will serve their owners' interests best, and given that this is a niche market, as you pointed out, that won't necessarily be exactly how every single purchaser wants it to be offered.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> But there have been posts, I'm not sure if it was a rumor or just speculation, that tivo might have some kind of ad (might just be a still image) anytime we use the 30 second skip.


Perhaps, but I think that that still is a split situation: You skipped the original ad. Then, TiVo presents and add during the Advance operation. Closer to replacement, true, but it still is a shared responsibility, and therefore if there is guilt (again, I don't believe there is), the viewer shares the guilt.

What would be problematic is if the DVR detected advertising and automatically swapped one of their customer's ads for the ad that was part of the broadcast.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> A company pays for a TV ad. That ad helps pay for the program. First DVRs like tivo makes it easy for us to skip the ads that pay for the program. Now tivo wants to insert ads.
> 
> I understand tivo is looking for additional sources of revenue. I understand selling ads is one such source. I have some question regarding the ethics of a system that essentially replaces an ad that paid for the program with a tivo supplied ad.


but the problem is functionality, if there were normal adds on the Tivo screen, and the Guide it wouldnt bother me. This concept breaks a function, i use.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> A couple of posters are looking for an alternative to tivo. Almost every cable and satellite provider offer a DVR. They can offer the DVR at an attractive bundle price. The provider doesn't have any incremental cost to provide guide data. The quality of those DVRs are continuing to improve. Those (few) people using OTA have PC based solutions available to them.
> 
> Tivo is trying to fill a niche market, those customers willing to pay a premium price for a superior product. I'd be shocked if there are enough potential customers to motivate an additional company into entering the market. Moxi decided not to market direct to the customer.
> 
> Given the present state of the economy I'd put the probability at near zero.


Hmm you mean This , and its for sale on amazon, and there are no ads... My next box..

http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

One of the strange things about the Moxi is that it only supports a single M-card for dual tuner operation. S-cards won't work? And there is no way to provide two? That's a bit strange.

The other thing that is weird is that there is no OTA capability. I suppose they figure if you want to record OTA, you can get the Echostar DVR. So you basically need two DVRs to do what one TiVo HD does.

And Moxi still wants $800 for it? Seriously?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> One of the strange things about the Moxi is that it only supports a single M-card for dual tuner operation. S-cards won't work? And there is no way to provide two? That's a bit strange.
> 
> The other thing that is weird is that there is no OTA capability. I suppose they figure if you want to record OTA, you can get the Echostar DVR. So you basically need two DVRs to do what one TiVo HD does.
> 
> And Moxi still wants $800 for it? Seriously?


I guess Moxi decided to expand beyond supplying cable provided DVRs.

I understand S cards have been discontinued. Tell that to a cusomer who found their cable company won't be ordering M cards until they deplete their inventory of S cards.

The $800 includes the equivalent of lifetime service but at that price I'd expect at least a 1 T drive and included wireless ethernet.

edited to add I note Moxi reserves the right to charge for additional features. It doesn't look like MRV or something equivalent to TTG is presently included.

It probably doesn't affect very many customers but it looks like the unit doesn't have a modem, broadband connections only.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

lew said:


> I understand S cards have been discontinued. Tell that to a cusomer who found their cable company won't be ordering M cards until they deplete their inventory of S cards.
> 
> .


Well considering every time i have called Comcast they never have cablecards, and they are always on order. I dont think the S card stock problem will be an issue for too many.

I might skip the second tivo and try the moxi. Ebay the current tivo.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bicker said:


> Remarkably, ignoring the reality doesn't make it go away.


bicker= reality..

Okay thats a pretty ridiculous statement.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Videodrome said:


> Well considering every time i have called Comcast they never have cablecards, and they are always on order. I dont think the S card stock problem will be an issue for too many.
> 
> I might skip the second tivo and try the moxi. Ebay the current tivo.


Take a look at the M-Card FiOS thread. Many posters are still getting S cards. Considering how few cc tv sets are in production existing inventory of cc might last longer then you think, at least some systems.

Doe Moxi work with a SDV dongle? Do you need one?

Looks like TivoHD is available for $208. Add $300 for LS. Moxi costs almost $200 more. Moxi is currently only sold through Diego, with Amazon handling the processing. The unit can't be shopped.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

HMMM, when I have once seen an obnoxious ad contained in a show, I try to avoid seeing it again. Occasionally, as I fast forward thru the commercials, one will catch my eye and I will go back and watch it. Actually, I am exposed to more ads this way than If I watched live TV. Because:
1. I watch more shows in the same amount of time. 
2. I don't read a magazine or get up and leave the room during commercials as I do when watching live TV.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

Videodrome said:


> Bicker, your name is too fitting. Sony discontinued it, BECAUSE it was windows media center format. Now that Tru2way is available .Tivo if they were smart, better expect competition. Motorola and Cisco are small fish compared to other product makers, and where does tiny tivo fit in there. The reality had to do with the stupid and careless implementation of cablecard, sony even said, and so did a batch of other manufactures. Bicker you dont know everything. The high horse attitude just devalues your statements.


Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou!


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

Videodrome said:


> Hmm you mean This , and its for sale on amazon, and there are no ads... My next box..
> 
> http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp


Thanks for the link. I will be looking into this and at first glance it looks hopeful!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Videodrome said:


> bicker= reality..
> 
> Okay thats a pretty ridiculous statement.


So much for ignoring me. 

Regardless, that's really the issue: I don't necessarily like the reality I detail; unlike you, I don't post my preferences as if they were requirements. I just post the requirements, the reality, that which is actual.

I'm sorry you find that frustrating.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

I would of personally sold hundreds of Tivos to all my friends.. except for the fact that Tivo keeps changing things to make itself more annoying. I know I myself have never pulled the trigger on a HD unit or more cuz of Tivo's constant changing from useful to embarassing. They should sell units with promises that it will just be what it is... and not turn into an ad kiosk tomorrow. I explain to people that you can have macros that when you hit pause, it does pause/clear.. but the average person just wants something simple.

Nothing better than 20 people standing around watching Tivo's please wait screen for 5 mins. cuz you accidentally hit swivel search due to slow updating menus. Wish Tivo had invented the ability to turn off all unused options.

Except of course the first time I'm watching a home movie of me and my ex getting intimate.. and at the end, it states, for more info, click here. I nearly had a heart attack.lol.... Who had more info?

All in all.. Tivo is very annoying... but when I finally do switch to something else, I will remember those funky, frightening, embarassing moments the most. And I admit.. I will miss the seemingly random annoyances and the heart checkups.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

bschuler2007 said:


> I would of personally sold hundreds of Tivos to all my friends.. except for the fact that Tivo keeps changing things to make itself more annoying. I know I myself have never pulled the trigger on a HD unit or more cuz of Tivo's constant changing from useful to embarassing. They should sell units with promises that it will just be what it is... and not turn into an ad kiosk tomorrow. I explain to people that you can have macros that when you hit pause, it does pause/clear.. but the average person just wants something simple.
> 
> Nothing better than 20 people standing around watching Tivo's please wait screen for 5 mins. cuz you accidentally hit swivel search due to slow updating menus. Wish Tivo had invented the ability to turn off all unused options.
> 
> ...


I can just see a salesmen demoing tivo, and ads popup, people are going to run away. I would.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

lew said:


> I understand S cards have been discontinued. Tell that to a cusomer who found their cable company won't be ordering M cards until they deplete their inventory of S cards.


It's not like it really matters, at least on a Tivo. Sucks for the Moxi though. But given Moxi's exceptionally inconsistent delivery and performance I wouldn't go worrying much about them. Choice is great, I'm all for competition. But let's actually see some units in the field...


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

bschuler2007 said:


> I would of personally sold hundreds of Tivos to all my friends.. except for the fact that Tivo keeps changing things to make itself more annoying. I know I myself have never pulled the trigger on a HD unit


 So, all you do is whinge online and don't increase sales. And your opinion matters, how?


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

wedenton said:


> You can defeat the ads by disconnecting TiVo from your network and going back to dial-up. I'm sure that will be too great a price for some. Not for me.


Aw crap. Tonight a yellow star Mercedes ad showed up on the "Pause menu" of my dial-up S2. Not the "More about..." blurb, just the yellow star. But still, it obscures programming and is not in a place where it can be ignored.

Boo, TiVo. Just Boooo!!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Looking to 2009-2010, it looks like we'll have the following options for a standalone HDTV DVR:


TiVo

 Moxi

 Cable company DVR

 True2Way DVR (sold at retail) running same software as cable company DVR

If you rent a Motorola or SA DVR from Comcast or Cox, you've probably noticed how they recently separated the DVR fee on your bill. For a single cable company DVR, you now pay $4-7 for "HDTV box rental" and $11-14 for "DVR service."

People expecting to buy a True2Way DVR at retail to avoid both advertising and the service fee may be in for quite a surprise.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

wedenton said:


> But still, it obscures programming and is not in a place where it can be ignored.
> 
> Boo, TiVo. Just Boooo!!


Cursor down to clear the menu. It won't show up again when you pause during that program.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> I can just see a salesmen demoing tivo, and ads popup, people are going to run away. I would.


Then going home and using the POS cable company dvr and remembering how much better TiVo functionality is, then going back and buying one.

I would.


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Cursor down to clear the menu. It won't show up again when you pause during that program.


That helps. Thanks pdhenry!


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

wkearney99,
My opinion matters cuz I am what makes Tivo possible.. paying customers. Without me.. you'd have to be a blind fanboy of some other product on some other forum. 

As for Tivo and competition.. I think alot of companies are coming on strong trying to marry the PC and TV. It's just a matter of time until you can watch TV the way you want. Personally, I'm hoping by this time next year, Sony or AMD will offer me my Tivo escape route. Sony is getting close.

And if Tivo is wondering why I am jumping.. I bought Tivo so I could watch my shows and not have to sit through hours of food commercials (as I am one of the billions currently on a diet)... now.. I get ORDER A PIZZA? Everywhere I turn. Nope.. no pizza.. and soon no Tivo.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

bschuler2007 said:


> wkearney99,
> My opinion matters cuz I am what makes Tivo possible.. paying customers. Without me.. you'd have to be a blind fanboy of some other product on some other forum.
> 
> As for Tivo and competition.. I think alot of companies are coming on strong trying to marry the PC and TV. It's just a matter of time until you can watch TV the way you want. Personally, I'm hoping by this time next year, Sony or AMD will offer me my Tivo escape route. Sony is getting close.
> ...


 For what ever reason it is obvious that many people are very annoyed by Tivos changes and many of us are just waiting to jump ship as soon as possible. The loyalty we had is gone because we feel betrayed by Tivo! Thats a shame!


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

bschuler2007 said:


> As for Tivo and competition.. I think alot of companies are coming on strong trying to marry the PC and TV. It's just a matter of time until you can watch TV the way you want. Personally, I'm hoping by this time next year, Sony or AMD will offer me my Tivo escape route. Sony is getting close.


And you think the competition won't follow suit by putting ads on _their_ interface?
Man, are you living the pipe dream.
They'll find a way to sneak them in there. 


dgf123 said:


> For what ever reason it is obvious that many people are very annoyed by Tivos changes and many of us are just waiting to jump ship as soon as possible. The loyalty we had is gone because we feel betrayed by Tivo! Thats a shame!


And I submit that just as many (if not 1000's more) people don't have a problem. Most people only post to bi*ch and complain. It skews reality.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> The loyalty we had is gone because we feel betrayed by Tivo! Thats a shame!


No, the loyalty was never there. People just want what they want, and aren't willing to pay a premium for it. They are ready to jump ship as soon as they perceive an advantage for them to do so -- _that _is not loyalty.



steve614 said:


> And you think the competition won't follow suit by putting ads on _their_ interface? Man, are you living the pipe dream. They'll find a way to sneak them in there.


Or have some other profit-making annoyance. In a free-market environment, all suppliers generally offer the same price-value proposition, averaged over the entire customer-base.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

steve614 said:


> And you think the competition won't follow suit by putting ads on _their_ interface?
> Man, are you living the pipe dream.
> They'll find a way to sneak them in there.
> 
> And I submit that just as many (if not 1000's more) people don't have a problem. Most people only post to bi*ch and complain. It skews reality.


It amazes me how many people cry and complain about me and others crying and complaining about a service I pay for. Why does it bother you if I complain? Unless your afraid of the truth that Tivo is starting to SUCK!


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

bicker said:


> No, the loyalty was never there. People just want what they want, and aren't willing to pay a premium for it. They are ready to jump ship as soon as they perceive an advantage for them to do so -- _that _is not loyalty.
> 
> Or have some other profit-making annoyance. In a free-market environment, all suppliers generally offer the same price-value proposition, averaged over the entire customer-base.


It amazes me how many people cry and complain about me and others crying and complaining about a service I pay for. Why does it bother you if I complain? Unless your afraid of the truth that Tivo is starting to SUCK!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Wow. Reruns, already?

If you want an unrebutted soap-box for your ranting, looking into a blog, not a discussion forum. You want your preferences to be considered more important than they are; I sympathize. However, you must expect that whatever you post to a _discussion forum _will be subject to being put it in its *proper *perspective. That's the real world.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

bicker said:


> Wow. Reruns, already?
> 
> If you want an unrebutted soap-box for your ranting, looking into a blog, not a discussion forum. You want your preferences to be considered more important than they are; I sympathize. However, you must expect that whatever you post to a _discussion forum _will be subject to being put it in its *proper *perspective. That's the real world.


Why is it that no one can complain about tivo with out you getting your little feelings hurt and spouting off about reality and what it is? The reality is that we PAY for this service! If we stop paying tivo goes under and ceases to exist! The public has spoken and is speaking by not signing up for tivo's service. That is why they are losing subscriptions! The complaints let tivo know what their customers want changed! So stop being a bully and let people say what they think and feel about a service they pay for! As bicker says"WELCOME TO REALITY"


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

You need to mention the TiVo stock price for your rant to be taken in its proper context...


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Actually as recent events have shown a company's stock price often bears no relationship to it's management capability or indeed its worth.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Most of us pay more for tivo then we'd be paying if for a DVR from our cable company. Tivo is a "premium priced" product. The question is if there are enough customers willing to pay a enough of a premium for tivo to stay in business.

I don't see any ads when I hit pause. I haven't signed up for swivel search. Is that the trade off?



bicker said:


> No, the loyalty was never there. People just want what they want, and aren't willing to pay a premium for it. They are ready to jump ship as soon as they perceive an advantage for them to do so -- _that _is not loyalty.
> 
> Or have some other profit-making annoyance. In a free-market environment, all suppliers generally offer the same price-value proposition, averaged over the entire customer-base.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> Why is it that no one can complain about tivo with out you getting your little feelings hurt


Gosh, I've been accused of not having feelings, before, but this rejoinder is a new one. You get some points for creativity in your ranting. :up:



dgf123 said:


> and spouting off about reality and what it is?


You should pay attention to where I do chime in and where I don't. The difference is that I believe certain complaints acknowledge reality and others do not.



dgf123 said:


> The reality is that we PAY for this service!


You pay for a service that never promised you there would never be ads in the paused TiVo menu. As such, your complaint here demonstrates a lack of acknowledgment of the reality. Contrast that with complaints about the flakiness of TiVo's CableCARD implementation, where they did promise you that it would work with CableCARD, yet sometimes it doesn't, even when the cable company's own CableCARD-equipped DVRs work fine. See the difference?



dgf123 said:


> If we stop paying tivo goes under and ceases to exist!


Actually, there is no reason to think that even if we continue paying TiVo it won't go under. It is losing money every year.



dgf123 said:


> The public has spoken and is speaking by not signing up for tivo's service.


And do you think that what they're saying is "Whatever dgf cares about -- that's why we're not buying TiVo"? That's a delusional perspective.



dgf123 said:


> That is why they are losing subscriptions!


See my earlier comment about legitimate complaints. Also note that there is no proof that there is any viable business case to be made for an independent cable/OTA HD DVR. There may simply be no way to make enough money on this specific product, regardless of how much more additional cost they choose to incur to make it "better" in *your *eyes.



dgf123 said:


> So stop being a bully and let people say what they think and feel about a service they pay for!


Please don't think for a minute that you get to determine the parameters of the discussion. Again, see my earlier comments regarding an unrebutted soap-box.


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## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

I farted.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Why is it that no one can complain about tivo with out you getting your little feelings hurt and spouting off about reality and what it is?


 Bicker and Steve614 do not seem to have their feelings hurt by your complaining. They merely talked about your posts. Worst it got was "living a pipe dream". Your posts seem to indicate you are the one taking this personally as you perceive that people are coming down on you for complaining about TiVo.


> The reality is that we PAY for this service! If we stop paying tivo goes under and ceases to exist! The public has spoken and is speaking by not signing up for tivo's service. That is why they are losing subscriptions!


so they are loosing subscriptions because the public has not bought subscriptions. OK I can agree with that.
Now replay TV had an ad skip feature where you could blow by everything, they also had a feature in the works to share shows over the Internet between Replay units. they were clearly on the path you want of ignoring advertisers and content owners. Guess where they ended up as a company - IP rights for DirectTV. They were in court being sued and they did not have the money to survive a court battle. TiVo took the other fork in the road and is trying to balance consumer desires with industry players needs to run a business. TiVo is still in business and now has a pile of cash to work with instead of paying it to lawyers and court costs. The broadcasters and content providers now see a reason to work with TiVo versus trying to run it out of business. Deals are being made that keep TiVo in cash.


> The complaints let tivo know what their customers want changed! So stop being a bully and let people say what they think and feel about a service they pay for! As bicker says"WELCOME TO REALITY"


You can complain in these forums all you want. I have not seen anyone say "you can not post that"
However as others point out as well - your perception of reality is not the only one and yours may well be wrong. Also I seriously doubt the Tivo board is going to bork up their long term "stay in business plan" due to some complaints in an online forum.
Sure TiVo is studying why they are having issues keeping standalone sub numbers positive but with
Souring economy
cable card hassles
lack of understanding why a DVR is needed
lack of HD integration with DBS currently
broadcast provider of DVR that can be leased and most of the cost put on other parts of cable bill.
etc..

I am fairly confident that presence of Ads are not even making the top 5 reasons. Do you have more to show us non-believers in your reality that ads are the big problem?
Do you have something to show TiVo that the anticipated revenue from these ads and the tech around them is worth less then the drop in subs attributed to ads?

So no bullying, but just a different perspective on ads that also gets to be posted in the forum. Please feel free to disagree but try and rebut actual points versus just calling bullies or whatever.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

pdhenry said:


> You need to mention the TiVo stock price for your rant to be taken in its proper context...


 Thats true A stock price of $57.875 in 2000 and now it is at $6.45.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Thats true A stock price of $57.875 in 2000 and now it is at $6.45.


Actually correcting for the value of the dollar the price in 2000 was $71.79 in today's dollars.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

:up:


RoyK said:


> Actually correcting for the value of the dollar the price in 2000 was $71.79 in today's dollars.


 Thanks!


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> No, the loyalty was never there. People just want what they want, and aren't willing to pay a premium for it. They are ready to jump ship as soon as they perceive an advantage for them to do so -- _that _is not loyalty.


To generalize on your statement a little. People have hard time to be loyal to their spouses, talking about loyalty to the electronic circuits and some software is absurd. In a free market economy people SHOULD "jump ship" as soon as they perceive that they get more bang for their money elsewhere.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

samo said:


> To generalize on your statement a little. People have hard time to be loyal to their spouses, talking about loyalty to the electronic circuits and some software is absurd. In a free market economy people SHOULD "jump ship" as soon as they perceive that they get more bang for their money elsewhere.


Agreed and thanks SAMO, but.............
Be careful or bicker will get mad at you if you dont speak positively about tivo! And then tell you your reality is skewed.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

dgf123 said:


> Be careful or bicker will get mad at you if you dont speak positively about tivo! And then tell you your reality is skewed.


 Seems that way doesn't it? But I doubt that's the case.

I'm not crying foul because you're saying negative things about Tivo, 
I'm crying foul because I think you're just wrong about what your saying.

We'll just have to wait and see what the future holds.


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## Agro (Apr 20, 2003)

I wonder if the service updates/programming data and the Ad's will come from different IP addresses/hostnames on the internet? Probably not, it is probably all included in your ony daily dose of TiVo programing data. Still, if somehow you could block that host or filter that out...


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Agro said:


> Still, if somehow you could block that host or filter that out...


Someone here tried that and found out that it also blocks some HME (HMO?) applications you might actually use.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> Agreed and thanks SAMO, but.............
> Be careful or bicker will get mad at you if you dont speak positively about tivo! And then tell you your reality is skewed.


It's pretty funny that you didn't realize that Samo was agreeing with *me*.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Agreed and thanks SAMO, but.............
> Be careful or bicker will get mad at you if you dont speak positively about tivo! And then tell you your reality is skewed.


not really. Samo has a bias toward DBS and I do not always agree with his posts but his points are usually based on actual market conditions and how various competitors stack up against each other versus just posting his own personal desires and then complaining about anyone who does not agree.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> Why is it that no one can complain about tivo with out you getting your little feelings hurt and spouting off about reality and what it is? The reality is that we PAY for this service! If we stop paying tivo goes under and ceases to exist! The public has spoken and is speaking by not signing up for tivo's service. That is why they are losing subscriptions! The complaints let tivo know what their customers want changed! So stop being a bully and let people say what they think and feel about a service they pay for!


You mix your personal complaints with that of the "public" as if you somehow spoke for them. You don't. Certainly not me. I recognize the value-added that comes from paying for Tivo service. Sure, I'd prefer to avoid being exposed to more ads. But realistically they're not that much of a bother at this point.

Quite whinging. Do something. Cancel your service. THAT'S REALITY. All this other nonsense about 'feelings' is entirely bogus, not to mention tediously annoying. But you no doubt get that a lot.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

wkearney99 said:


> You mix your personal complaints with that of the "public" as if you somehow spoke for them. You don't. Certainly not me. I recognize the value-added that comes from paying for Tivo service. Sure, I'd prefer to avoid being exposed to more ads. But realistically they're not that much of a bother at this point.
> 
> Quite whinging. Do something. Cancel your service. THAT'S REALITY. All this other nonsense about 'feelings' is entirely bogus, not to mention tediously annoying. But you no doubt get that a lot.


I have done something! I have spent $800.00 on a MOXI Hi Def DVR! I will not be paying for tivo service when my subscriptions run out and tivo will have lost another customer and soon it will only be a few of you "loyal" tivo fans who get spoon fed all those adds you defend so much that others will be once again avoiding! And by the way whats "whinging" mean any way?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> I have done something! I have spent $800.00 on a MOXI Hi Def DVR!


Somehow the phrase "rue the day" comes to mind. Good luck, you'll need it.



> And by the way whats "whinging" mean any way?


STFW. Works wonders, those intertubes....


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> I have done something! I have spent $800.00 on a MOXI Hi Def DVR!


Please let us know where you'll be posting your complaints about the Moxi. I'm sure we'll all get a big laugh out of that.


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## visionary (May 31, 2006)

I would expect if there is no charge for Moxi guide data, there soon will be, and bigger than Tivo's if there really are no ads. Then, if sales drop....ads will appear. That is what will happen, they just want to get their new box out there in homes first. Wait and see. There is no free lunch.


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## dgf123 (Nov 29, 2008)

visionary said:


> I would expect if there is no charge for Moxi guide data, there soon will be, and bigger than Tivo's if there really are no ads. Then, if sales drop....ads will appear. That is what will happen, they just want to get their new box out there in homes first. Wait and see. There is no free lunch.


 Technology changes so fast so all I need is a couple years out of the MOXI and then if they place annoying adds (like tivo) there will be something better available.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> The loyalty we had ...





dgf123 said:


> Technology changes so fast so all I need is a couple years out of the MOXI and then if they place annoying adds (like tivo) there will be something better available.


Thank you for proving my point about loyalty. The most remarkable thing, for me, is that you managed to do it on the same page in the same thread. I would have expected it would have taken a few months for you to demonstrate what we've been trying to say to you.

Incidentally, I posted something on AVS Forum earlier this morning saying something very similar to what you've alluded to here, i.e., highlighting that there is no, and no reason for, loyalty in the high-tech world. We're all better served by thinking as you indicate here: That everything we purchase is temporary, to be replaced by something else after a few years. No one owes us anything they didn't explicitly promise us, and we don't own anyone anything we choose not to give them.

Hopefully, even if you are unwilling to admit it, you now realize the folly of your having taken umbrage at how TiVo has chosen to change their service offering over time.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I burped.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> I have done something! I have spent $800.00 on a MOXI Hi Def DVR!


yep, I imagine lots of people will be spending 800$ on a just introduced DVR simply to avoid ad links on the screen.
This is exactly how Tivo and ReplayTV started out BTW - charging a large upfront fee. Replay ran into other troubles with autoskip of ads and sending shows to others outside the home. TiVo went back to monthly subs to keep cash flow happening, and of course elecetd to play ball with advertisers and broadcasters so they could stay in business.

What research did you do that convinced you that MOXI would be able to forge a different business model and make it work?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

dgf123 said:


> Technology changes so fast so all I need is a couple years out of the MOXI and then if they place annoying adds (like tivo) there will be something better available.


What a laugh. You do realize the Moxi has been delayed forever and has had any number of development and deployment problems, right? So for the sake of some ads you're jumping outta the frying pan and into the fire. Good luck with that logic. Meanwhile, grab nose, spite face.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

visionary said:


> I would expect if there is no charge for Moxi guide data, there soon will be, and bigger than Tivo's if there really are no ads. Then, if sales drop....ads will appear. That is what will happen, they just want to get their new box out there in homes first. Wait and see. There is no free lunch.


Moxi is priced similar to tivo with lifetime service. The cost for guide data is included with the purchase price of the unit. Moxi doesn't offer MRV or TTG. It's not clear if those features will ever be introduced or if there will be a charge for new features.

Moxi only supports broadband, not dialup modem. I'm sure the results in some cost savings.

I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, let alone two.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dgf123 said:


> Technology changes so fast so all I need is a couple years out of the MOXI and then if they place annoying adds (like tivo) there will be something better available.


oh, ok then You are willing to plunk down 800$ every 2 years and deal with being early adopter on brand new companies. Have fun with that knee jerk reaction.

I will be happily streaming Netflix and FFing my recorded shows (that I copy around to whatever TV I want) so I can focus on the content and keep ignoring the ad graphics on the periphery (except the ones that interest me) and not having spent anything more, unless I decide to upgrade a DT to a Tivo HD so I can stream content at more than one TV.

Then in 2 years I will take a look at MOXI and the Tru2Way TiVo and make a call on what upgrade path I will take then. Thanks for using the MOXI for 2 years so there will be lots of data for me to make an *informed* decision with.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Moxi is priced similar to tivo with lifetime service. The cost for guide data is included with the purchase price of the unit. Moxi doesn't offer MRV or TTG. It's not clear if those features will ever be introduced or if there will be a charge for new features. Moxi only supports broadband, not dialup modem. I'm sure the results in some cost savings. I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, let alone two.


One other note about the Moxi: Digeo is *not* providing program guide data service with the purchase price. By now, folks should know to read the promotional materials very carefully before making such assumptions. The Moxi *supports* TVGOS and PSIP/EPG, but does not promise that either will be available in any specific localities, does not promise that either will be offered for any specific duration of time, nor warrants the quality of either. You may think you're paying Moxi for indefinite provision of accurate program guide data, but you're not; you're paying for software support for the currently defined interface for free program guide services, services that come with no specific promise of accuracy or continuity of offering.


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## wedenton (Jun 13, 2002)

lew said:


> ...I don't see any ads when I hit pause. I haven't signed up for swivel search. Is that the trade off?


Afraid not. TiVo just hasn't gotten around to delivering this "feature" to all platforms yet. It popped up on one of my non-broadband S2 boxes last week. (You must be broadband connected to get swivel search). Hasn't shown up on my non-broadband S3s yet, but I expect it to in January. It put a big damper on my enthusiasm - not my loyalty - for TiVo.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bicker said:


> One other note about the Moxi: Digeo is *not* providing program guide data service with the purchase price. By now, folks should know to read the promotional materials very carefully before making such assumptions. The Moxi *supports* TVGOS and PSIP/EPG, but does not promise that either will be available in any specific localities, does not promise that either will be offered for any specific duration of time, nor warrants the quality of either. You may think you're paying Moxi for indefinite provision of accurate program guide data, but you're not; you're paying for software support for the currently defined interface for free program guide services, services that come with no specific promise of accuracy or continuity of offering.


I don't think this is true for the new HD DVR. If you go here and click on the Tech Specs link, you'll see that they provide an EPG over the net. You have to register the Moxi with them and set it up with zip code, provider, Cablecard, etc. but the EPG is downloaded every night after that, just like Tivo. Also see the FAQ linked on that page for confirmation about broadband connectivity being required for EPG download.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wedenton said:


> Afraid not. TiVo just hasn't gotten around to delivering this "feature" to all platforms yet. It popped up on one of my non-broadband S2 boxes last week. .


Yes, I fully expect the ad part of this new graphic will be on all TiVo DVRs that currently have ad links elsewhere


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Bicker--Moxi is currently using zap2it/Tribune for guide data. An EPG is a promised feature as is the ability to search for a program, set up a season pass etc. That is included in the purchase price. I don't think PSIP data alone is sufficient to supply the services promised in the promotional material.

Moxi could switch to a different vendor for guide data. The agreement mentions services supplied by a third party. Although Moxi might be able to use that language to start charging for guide data, or including ads, that option isn't only viable if Moxi exits the line of business (or goes out of business).

I'm not sure if there is even a market for one premium priced DVR, I doubt there will be a market for two. Even if the "fine print" doesn't let Mox/Tivo get of their commitments a bankruptcy court can.

Any customer purchasing a Moxi, or buying LS service from tivo have to consider the possibility of the company going out of business during the otherwise useful life of the DVR.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't think this is true for the new HD DVR. If you go here and click on the Tech Specs link,


yes, I said a year ago when they first came on the scene that the MOXI DVR may be the one true competitor to TiVo. However to go to MOXI based on no subscription fees or no ads as the only reasons is simply taking a gamble that is not likely to pay off or add real value.

Just look at the caveats already in place

* Certain current and/or future features/services provided by third parties may contain advertising.
** Certain future services may be offered at additional cost.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't think this is true for the new HD DVR. If you go here and click on the Tech Specs link, you'll see that they provide an EPG over the net. You have to register the Moxi with them and set it up with zip code, provider, Cablecard, etc. but the EPG is downloaded every night after that, just like Tivo. Also see the FAQ linked on that page for confirmation about broadband connectivity being required for EPG download.


I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.

However, I don't see anything there that actually promises that this service will be provided, with any level of accuracy, for any period of time. It just looks like they're effectively saying, "We'll program guide data, how we want to." For folks wondering what that operationally could mean, just look at how companies provide Closed Captioning -- and that's not the reflection of a consumerist interpretation of advertising, but is a reflection of *Federal Law*. Captioning is still inconsistent, inaccurate at times, unusable at times, etc.

I also noted this warning, "Certain current and/or future features/services provided by third parties may contain advertising."


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> Moxi could switch to a different vendor for guide data. The agreement mentions services supplied by a third party. Although Moxi might be able to use that language to start charging for guide data, or including ads, that option isn't only viable if Moxi exits the line of business (or goes out of business).


I think you're reading far more into their statements than is there. We've seen, time and time again, how legally, things that companies state mean something far different from what consumers *want* those statements to mean. I'll grant that provision of a program guide is perhaps implicit in the promotional materials, but the source surely is not, and clearly nothing prevents them from switching to a third-party vendor, charging a fee, and/or imposing advertising. Unless you see words to the contrary, without reading anything into the words that are there.

Let's be clear: I really wish that what you're saying is true. However, again, _time and time again_, we've seen that such consumer-biased interpretations are simply not the reality that consumers experience.



lew said:


> Even if the "fine print" doesn't let Mox/Tivo get of their commitments a bankruptcy court can.


Absolutely.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Bicker--The airlines learned the "subject to change" provisions of their CoC didn't allow them add charges for checked baggage to passengers who were already ticketed.

I agree sometimes statements don't mean what consumers think they mean but sometimes they also don't mean what a business thinks they mean (can get away with).

Moxi certainly has the right to change guide data providers, but the new provider has to provide data that allows the Moxi to perform the promised DVR features. My concern would be Moxi deciding to make do with the (more limited) EPG data that's supplied by the cable system.

I'd be more concerned with Moxi going out of business then Moxi deciding to "screw" their customers by charging for things like EPG guide data, which is included in the purchase price of the unit.

There are a number of "new" features (MRV, TTG...) that Moxi could add. It's clear Moxi can charge for those features, or even have ads.

edited to add--This thread seems to have drifted. I understand tivo is looking for new sources of revenue. I understand an increasing number of ads is inevitable. I'll sometimes hit pause so I can look at something on the screen, sometimes a credit or sometimes in the main part of the show. I won't be happy if the ad obstructs what I'm looking at *unless the ad* disappears after a few seconds or can be cleared by hitting the clear button on the remote.

Some ads such as ordering pizza or purchasing movie tickets via the remote may actually be useful to some customers (*not me.*


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

It is also clear that "No subscription, no ads" is a basic tenet of their promotion. They are playing on the (some would say perceived - others would say real) negatives of TiVo. I don't believe that they would promise that and then back off in the near future at least. Their business plan obviously is for the customers to pay up front and not be nickle and dimed and bothered down the road. A great selling point.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

RoyK said:


> It is also clear that "No subscription, no ads" is a basic tenet of their promotion. They are playing on the (some would say perceived - others would say real) negatives of TiVo. I don't believe that they would promise that and then back off in the *near future at least*. Their business plan obviously is for the customers to pay up front and not be nickle and dimed and bothered down the road. A great selling point.


If they find that it's more costly to keep things going then the upfront sales, I could see this changing.

Either that or it becomes a poorly supported box with outdated software and no system updates.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Langree said:


> If they find that it's more costly to keep things going then the upfront sales, I could see this changing...


Would that we all had crystal balls....


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> The airlines learned the "subject to change" provisions of their CoC didn't allow them add charges for checked baggage to passengers who were already ticketed.


However, it did allow them to take away free snacks and/or charge extra for snacks; reduce free drink options; run commercials before and after the safety announcement; charge for pillows, blankets, earphones; etc. Going back further, they learned that those provisions allow them to reduce seat pitch; charge extra for paper tickets; make it so that frequent flyer miles expire; etc.



lew said:


> I agree sometimes statements don't mean what consumers think they mean but sometimes they also don't mean what a business thinks they mean (can get away with).


Very very very very very very very infrequently.



lew said:


> Moxi certainly has the right to change guide data providers, but the new provider has to provide data that allows the Moxi to perform the promised DVR features.


Not to any level of accuracy or reliability. If you really don't believe me, I'll be happy to point you towards all the "quality of" Closed Captioning complaints that I was referring to.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> It is also clear that "No subscription, no ads" is a basic tenet of their promotion.


With an asterisk.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

So now, at least, the consumer has a choice. Moxi with maybe ads and a subscription sometime in the future or TiVo with ads and a subscription now or the cablecard/satellite model.

Time will tell which -- if any -- business model succeeds.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Their business plan obviously is for the customers to pay up front and not be nickle and dimed and bothered down the road. A great selling point.


you do of course realize you can buy a Tivo HD and Lifetime sub for 700$ RETAIL and never pay another dime or nickel or even penny. You get analog with no need to send off for a dongle, OTA, MRV/TTG/TTCB, Video downloads, podcasts, Internet radio, You tube and Netflix streaming, etc.. all for not one extra charge from TiVo.

To say that getting a DVR with less features from MOXI for 800$ and not ever having OTA, and very likely getting billed again IF MRV or whatever is offered is a 'great selling point' is being like a MOXI fanboy and ignoring the reality of the two options.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> TiVo with ads and a subscription now


now you have crossed over into being a MOXI fanboy. We all know you know that a TiVo HD with Lifetime can be had for 700$ total from tivo.com. To post that the only option is a TiVo with subscription is just a knowing distortion of the facts.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Not a Moxi fanboy. Haven't seen one. 
You're right about lifetime - my bad. Although lifetime on my TiVoHDs has been an average of about 2 weeks so far. The third one since Thanksgiving is due tomorrow.

But there is still the ad factor.

Competition is good - for the consumer.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Not a Moxi fanboy. Haven't seen one.


 yah, I just had fun using that on someone else for a change 


> You're right about lifetime - my bad. Although lifetime on my TiVoHDs has been an average of about 2 weeks so far. The third one since Thanksgiving is due tomorrow.
> 
> But there is still the ad factor.


true, but 800$ (I believe MOXI still controls all sales so I assume it can not be found for lower price) for a lesser featured box simply to avoid ads? If TiVo is let in on the reason for the person to make the move to MOXI that should certainly tell them the person truly does not like ads and is willing to pay more for less simply to avoid them.


> Competition is good - for the consumer.


agreed.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Competition is good - for the consumer.


Almost always. Tivo already competes with cableco DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for one premium DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two. Competition isn't good if it forces both companies out of business. We need guide data, in a format tweaked to work with our DVR, for our units to work.

A DVR may not work (well if at all) if the company goes out of business.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

lew said:


> ...
> A DVR may not work (well if at all) if the company goes out of business.


I used to have a 78 record player. Then I got a 45, then a combo with 33-1/3. Then I got a reel-to-reel tape recorder, then an 8 track, then a cassette tape.

I had a philco console radio, and one of the first transistor portables.

I used to have a betamax, and a pong game, an Altair computer, a Sinclair, a TRS-80 and a Commodore 64, then an Amiga.

I had a Brownie Hawkeye box camera, and an Argus C3. A Polaroid Land Camera, and a Pentax SLR. Now I have a Nikon D40 SLR.

I'm sure one of these days I'll used to have a TiVo too....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I had a Brownie Hawkeye box camera, and an Argus C3. A Polaroid Land Camera, and a Pentax SLR. Now I have a Nikon D40 SLR.
> 
> I'm sure one of these days I'll used to have a TiVo too....


but will it go the way of Polaroid or Nikon?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lew said:


> We need guide data, in a format tweaked to work with our DVR, for our units to work.
> 
> A DVR may not work (well if at all) if the company goes out of business.


I would hope that if Tivo ever goes under, the DVRs would still "function".
It would be a PITA, but I could live with having to program it like a dumb digital VCR.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but will it go the way of Polaroid or Nikon?


I imagine there will be a place for it at the Smithsonian Institution - and deservedly so.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

lew said:


> Almost always. Tivo already competes with cableco DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for one premium DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two. Competition isn't good if it forces both companies out of business. We need guide data, in a format tweaked to work with our DVR, for our units to work.
> 
> A DVR may not work (well if at all) if the company goes out of business.


There is no place for two "premium" DVRs, as of now there is no place for one "premium DVR" as latest sales figures for TiVo demonstrate. There will always be a place for "better" (without "premium" price tag) or "cheaper" DVR as sales figures for DBS and Cable DVRs demonstrate.
Neither TiVo or Moxi offer "premium" features that majority of consumers care about or want to pay a premium price for. The only thing that keeps TiVo afloat is that some cable DVRs (perhaps most - I never had one) suck big time. I'm willing to bet that if and when cable DVRs become as good as DBS DVRs, the market for so called "premium" DVRs will disappear altogether.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> I'm willing to bet that if and when cable DVRs become as good as DBS DVRs, the market for so called "premium" DVRs will disappear altogether.


I actually kind of doubt that. "premium" features are MRV/TTG?TTCB - streaming music, photos and now alternate video sources like Netflix and You Tube and i doubt Hulu and other such sources are far behind.

I think for the standalone market to disappear then the cable and DBS companies need to open up and turn their DVR into such a Media server.

I agree with your market perspective that not everyone wants those features nowadays and thus the problem for premium DVR makers. PCs in the home kind of fell into the same category. they were costly and people did not understand how they would use a home PC or Internet connection not that many years ago. Now PCs and Internet are found in many millions of homes. The price is still sensitive, with most looking for sub $1,000 PCs and some happy with 500$ or less PCs.

Stand alone DVRs that can provide alternative content - read netflix and Internet streaming like Hulu along with other media services like pulling music/photos/shows/DVDs from a PC in the home will still be attractive to a certain % of the market and that % will grow as the market becomes more familiar/comfortable with such capabilities. The market will stay sensitive to price as this is still just an appliance at the end of the day but as the capability to deliver content increases so will the demand.

so I can agree that 'premium' pricing will not be the one that wins the market, but the one that finds the balance between price and content and ease of use will win the market. If cable and DBS companies stay walled off from outside content, they will likely not meet the content part of the above balance.


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