# Can I run my Tivo without a landline?



## MarkH (Nov 22, 2002)

The only thing I use my landline for is my tivo and to be truthful I wouldn't mind getting rid of it!

I want to get a mobile hi speed internet connection and of course I have my mobile phone, would it be possible to get my tivo to get it's downloads via either one of these methods?


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

Short answer yes. No doubt Pete will be along soon. 

Via internet if you have a router, buy an Ethernet card, there are three versions around:

Cachecard, Turbonet or Terbonet.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=362097

Or via ICS through your computer using an Ethernet card (above) or serial connection, apparently not easy to set up though.

Via mobile again via ICS through your computer using a Ethernet card or serial connection.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Fred Smith said:


> Short answer yes. No doubt Pete will be along soon.
> 
> Via internet if you have a router, buy an Ethernet card, there are three versions around:
> 
> Cachecard, Turbonet or Terbonet.


This only works if you live in an area served by NTL where you are not forced to also pay for a POTS phone line connection anyway to also have ADSL broadband. Unfortunately good old Ofcom has failed to make it illegal for companies like BT and PostOffice HomePhone to force you to also take phone service to have broadband on their piece of copper wire.,

Of more interest is the new range of data services just announced by mobile data provide Three which may be a sufficient replacement for a landline for some home users who do not use more than 5Gb of data per month.

Now I imagine this could be got to work if your Tivo is hooked directly to your computer's ethernet port and you then have that computer also connected to the internet via a 3G PCMCIA adapater containing a Three SIM card.

However if you use a normal ADSL modem router how do you connect the router to the 3G mobile internet link??? Me thinks you will need a new kind of router that can hold 3G SIM card for such activities?

Perhaps Three has it in mind to provide such a router?


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## MarkH (Nov 22, 2002)

I am a basic amateur when it comes to this sort of stuff so I am suffering from brain cramp already!

I believe the three package comes complete as is, with a 3meg econnection speed!

http://threestore.three.co.uk/offerdetails.aspx?offercode=24MB7GD001&tariffid=682&id=1201


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

MarkH said:


> I am a basic amateur when it comes to this sort of stuff so I am suffering from brain cramp already!
> 
> I believe the three package comes complete as is, with a 3meg econnection speed!
> 
> http://threestore.three.co.uk/offerdetails.aspx?offercode=24MB7GD001&tariffid=682&id=1201


Do you already have a Tivo with a Cachecard or Turbonet card and get your Tivo data via your broadband connection?

Three only provide a USB adapter which connects your PC to the internet via their network but you have to connect your Tivo to your computer as well. You can do this if you have a Cachecard or Turbonet card in your Tivo and then connect to your computer's ethernet port directly with a cross over cable. That should work out as far as I can see. I suppose using a wireless bridge attached to your Tivo you may also be able to connect direct wirelessly to a wireless adapter on your computer and then from the computer to the Three network with its USB adapter.

However if you currently connect your Tivo to a router with a cable or wifi connection I can't see a way to then connect that router to the Three network using the USB adapter on your PC.

But there may be a way so I await blindlemon's arrival as our technical guru in such complex networking and Tivo connecting matters.

The Three offer is interesting. If they can turn it in to 10Gb for between £15 to £20 per month I will be a lot more interested in signing up. The bad news at the moment is their charges for running over their data cap. At present these are criminally expensive instead of being say just double the prepaid data rate.

I can't see why they don't have a package for up to 15Gb a month which many customers will want to have reassurance they won't ever exceed the data cap (especially given the extortionate charges for exceeding it).


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> This only works if you live in an area served by...


It's *VIRGIN MEDIA* and has been since FEBRUARY!!!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But there may be a way so I await blindlemon's arrival as our technical guru in such complex networking and Tivo connecting matters.


Well, thanks for the confidence, but as I know nothing about Three network's package I'm not going to be able to add very much.

It sounds as if you would have to use ICS to make use of the Three USB modem via your PC - which _should_ work, but can be a pain to setup at the best of times. It would, of course, also only work when your PC was switched on.

However, if Three were to produce a compatible modem/wireless router package in the future - and I suspect the demand would be there, as most broadband suppliers now offer this option as standard if you buy/take their modem - you could just add a wireless bridge to your cachecard and all would be well


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## aerialplug (Oct 20, 2000)

I'm sure it's possible to connect to the TiVo servers via a 3G mobile phone connection... but I'm too tired to work out how you'd go about setting it up at the moment - presumably you'd need to get the PC connecting to it via its cable/bluetooth to act as a router.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> It's *VIRGIN MEDIA* and has been since FEBRUARY!!!


New name may be but same old promising looking three tuner PVR let down by stone age software.


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## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Of more interest is the new range of data services just announced by mobile data provide Three which may be a sufficient replacement for a landline for some home users who do not use more than 5Gb of data per month.
> 
> Now I imagine this could be got to work if your Tivo is hooked directly to your computer's ethernet port and you then have that computer also connected to the internet via a 3G PCMCIA adapater containing a Three SIM card.
> 
> ...


Actually Three offer upto 7Gb per month for £25, 3Gb for £15 and 1Gb for £10, I have just received (Tuesday) my 'free' USB modem for the 3Gb service, I am moving away from T-Mobile whom I currently pay £20 for 2Gb per month (no longer available to new customers, minimum is now £29 for 3Gb per month).

Draytek offer routers compatible with 3G USB data modems and Linksys (amongst others) offer routers compatible with PCMCIA cards, according to a Dutch website the Linksys can be make to work with other networks. Neither are cheap though.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

aerialplug said:


> I'm sure it's possible to connect to the TiVo servers via a 3G mobile phone connection... but I'm too tired to work out how you'd go about setting it up at the moment - presumably you'd need to get the PC connecting to it via its cable/bluetooth to act as a router.


Really 3 need to come up with a wireless router to go with the product that you can still join up all your existing wired network and wireless network (eg laptop with wifi adapter) to.

I'm not quite clear if their USB adapter then interfaces by Bluetooth with your mobile phone or if it contains a SIM card in its own right.  But then if the latter how do yo make phone calls when out and about unless you drag your laptop with you????

Also the maximum 7Gb data limit says that for now its not a totally serious replacement for home broadband. If they charged a sensible amount per Gb for exceeding the cap and/or also had a 15Gb offering then they might start to be seriously in that marketplace. I would still have to have a geographic number for my non voip savvy friends to call me on too but you can get one of those without charge from www.sipgate.co.uk

The thought of telling BT where to stick its overpriced piece of copper and to be able to use broadband seriously on the train and when away at the weekend etc is appealing. I note that 3 now does have a decent 3G signal in this area on its own transmitter, even though all the other four networks here several miles from town are still only 2G. Well done 3 who were relying on roaming with O2 here when I last trialled and returned one of their phones. But which Voip networks can you use on 3? As they mention Skype hopefully it is open to any Voip connection, including most SIP based providers.

Three would really have a killer product if they could do a deal with EU mobile networks so you can use data when you are on holiday on this connection at a sensible fixed price supplement for the months in question. In countries where there is no 3G of note a 2G GPRS alternative would be perfectly adequate for most people and is far better than nothing at all.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> R
> I'm not quite clear if their USB adapter then interfaces by Bluetooth with your mobile phone or if it contains a SIM card in its own right. But then if the latter how do yo make phone calls when out and about unless you drag your laptop with you????


It's a standalone device. You don't/can't make voice calls with it, it's to connect your laptop to the net at high speed whereever you happen to be.



> But which Voip networks can you use on 3? As they mention Skype hopefully it is open to any Voip connection, including most SIP based providers.


It's an internet connection. Do what you like with it.



> Three would really have a killer product if they could do a deal with EU mobile networks so you can use data when you are on holiday on this connection at a sensible fixed price supplement for the months in question


You take your laptop on holiday?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> You take your laptop on holiday?


I do. Otherwise, how would I keep up with this forum while on the beach?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> You take your laptop on holiday?


Some of us have been known to go on holiday for a month.

Kind of a long time to have no computer.

Current data roaming rates in the EU are scandalous. I don't know what Vodafone's excuse is for not having replicated their voice based Passport deal in other countries in the EU where they also own a network.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It's an internet connection. Do what you like with it.


Its perfectly possible to restrict use of the Voip ports on an internet connection as those students at universities with an internet connections in their room but also with a phone provided by 0870 student rip off phone provider DognBone know to their cost.

In fact use of Skype is often restricted on corporate or academic networks because of the peer to peer load that it imposes.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Disclaimer - I work for Vodafone but I am not speaking for them in an official capacity.

To answer the original question....
Buy a Cachecard or a Turbonet card or a Terbonet Card or an Airnet Card. Congratulations, your TiVo is now connected to your LAN.

Now, how to connect your LAN to the wider Internet
a) ADSL, you will need a BT line but you don't have to pay them line rental (you need to pay line rental to your broadband provider)
b) Cable, if you're in an area served by Virgin Media - http://allyours.virginmedia.com/websales/availability/get-address.do
c) Steal your neighbours' WiFi 
d) Use the GPRS/3G signal from your favourite phone provider...

You can use a product like the WRT54G3G 
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/87367/linksys-wirelessg-router-for-3gumts-broadband-wrt54g3g.html
This means that you don't have to have a computer on for your TiVo to access the Internet. You can get a USB modem, if you want to have your computer act as the gateway
http://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispat...fpb=true&_pageLabel=template08&pageID=MB_0002

Put in a SIM card and hook your network up to Mobile Broadband. On Vodafone, £30 a month gets you a 3GB download limit. On a business contract you might be able to get a better deal. Other network provider are available etc.

T


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> New name may be ..


No. New company _completely_. Company formed by merger of three others; but don't let the facts stop you


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Current data roaming rates in the EU are scandalous. I don't know what Vodafone's excuse is for not having replicated their voice based Passport deal in other countries in the EU where they also own a network.


(Usual disclaimer)

Vodafone have a passport rates for data. It's £9.99 for 24 hours (depending on price plan. See below for more options)

Taken from http://www.abroad.vodafone.co.uk

Mobile Browsing (on your phone)
Pay Monthly customers:
Passport Countries - £5 per day for up to 15MB¹
Non Passport countries £8 per MB

Mobile Broadband 24 
£4.99 per MB
Any network#
Any country

Mobile Broadband 
£9.99 for 24 hours* in selected countries**
£4.99 per MB in other countries

Mobile Broadband Travel 
200 MB included
Any network#
Any country
£4.99 per MB out of bundle

Mobile Broadband (per MB roaming)
£4.99 per MB
Any network#
Any country


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

terryeden said:


> (Usual disclaimer)Vodafone have a passport rates for data. It's £9.99 for 24 hours (depending on price plan. See below for more options)


£309.69 per month. Wow that's a real bargain isn't it. 

The UK equivalent cost on Pay As You Go is £31 per month as long as you don't use more than 15MB per day.

I believe Vodafone Spain sell a Pay As You Go card with 1Gb of data that can be used at any time within its 90 day validity for 60 Euros or about £40

Now why doesn't Vodafone UK offer the same deal to UK customers roaming in Spain? Sounds like its time for another project by the fearless lady EU Commissioner to stop these absolutely blatant abuses of the customer by your company. A company so abusive it won't even itemise any call charges on Pay As You online or anywhere else purely because a commercially hijacked regulator that fails to serve the UK citizen consumer does not mandate it.

And Vodafone does do not anything to the customer's advantage on billing that it is not forced to do at the point of a regulatory gun!    :down: :down: :down:


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

I have the Vodafone mobile broadband product. I use the USB version on a £25/month contract. It is a fabulous little gadget. All the operating software is stored on the device itself so you can walk up to any PC and get on the internet straight away without having to hunt out drivers or whatever. I can thoroughly recommend it. Even when it falls back to 2G service it's faster than the old GSM version I used to have. 

I've no connection to Vodafone - Just a happy customer. It needs to be a bit cheaper for widespread use but my company pays the bill.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BrianHughes said:


> I have the Vodafone mobile broadband product. I use the USB version on a £25/month contract. It is a fabulous little gadget. All the operating software is stored on the device itself so you can walk up to any PC and get on the internet straight away without having to hunt out drivers or whatever. I can thoroughly recommend it. Even when it falls back to 2G service it's faster than the old GSM version I used to have.
> 
> I've no connection to Vodafone - Just a happy customer. It needs to be a bit cheaper for widespread use but my company pays the bill.


The UK rates are not as bad although not nearly as good as 3's new service with up to 7Gb of data for full internet for £25 or 1Gb for £15 and 3Gb for £20 per month.

However it is the monstrous tariffs for data when roaming in other EU contries on a UK Vodafone SIM that I was commenting on. I take it you have not tried using your little Vodafone gadget when you are away on holiday overseas.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

There's an offer on at the moment that makes the 1GB=£10 and the 3GB=£15.

The only concern I have with it is it mentions a rate of "up to 2.8MB" which I guess could also mean "down to as low as 0MB".

Ian


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

My gut feeling is unless you are a very light surfer then you are going to bang up against the download limits and acceptable use policies on all these mobile broadband products.



terryeden said:


> c) Steal your neighbours' WiFi


An alternative if you have a neighbour in sensible range & they are proper friends is to offer to share the cost of a broadband contract or even take on out on their phone line in your name. 
If you're beyond a normal access point range then there are various antenna and aerial products that will allow you to set up point to point access over much longer distances without wiring.


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## terryeden (Nov 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> £309.69 per month. Wow that's a real bargain isn't it.


That's the day rate. If you just go abroad for a short while. It's a lot cheaper that Hotel WiFi (from painful experience)

If you go abroad a lot, the Mobile Broadband Travel tariff gives you 200MB free when abroad, with extra MB at £4.25


Pete77 said:


> The UK equivalent cost on Pay As You Go is £31 per month as long as you don't use more than 15MB per day.


However, the £9.99 gives you 50MB, not 15MB. 50MB in the UK would cost £71 per day (£1 for the first MB, £2 per MB for the next 35). Or you could take the £7.50 bundle - this gets you 120MB for a month.



Pete77 said:


> I believe Vodafone Spain sell a Pay As You Go card with 1Gb of data that can be used at any time within its 90 day validity for 60 Euros or about £40


I can't see anything on http://www.vodafone.es/acceso-internet/0,,34736,00.html - but my Spanish is not great.

There's nothing to stop anyone buying a foreign SIM when abroad. It is, usually, cheaper - but not always convenient.



Pete77 said:


> Now why doesn't Vodafone UK offer the same deal to UK customers roaming in Spain? Sounds like its time for another project by the fearless lady EU Commissioner to stop these absolutely blatant abuses of the customer by your company. A company so abusive it won't even itemise any call charges on Pay As You online or anywhere else purely because a commercially hijacked regulator that fails to serve the UK citizen consumer does not mandate it.
> 
> And Vodafone does do not anything to the customer's advantage on billing that it is not forced to do at the point of a regulatory gun!    :down: :down: :down:


As I understand it (and I'm not in billing or legal so I might be wrong) there are regulatory reasons which stop foreign companies selling wholesale roaming rates at discounted rates in that fashion.

Incidentally, the Passport scheme was bought in before the regulator stepped in.

There is fierce competition in the mobile marketplace. Especially for roaming. If you are unhappy with the rates that Vodafone charge, you have the choice of (in no particular order) Orange, T-Mobile, Virgin, 3, O2, Tesco, ASDA, Skype, a local SIM card, 0044, Truphone, Callblue, and many others.

If that fails - http://www.3gpp.org/specs/specs.htm


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

AMc said:


> My gut feeling is unless you are a very light surfer then you are going to bang up against the download limits and acceptable use policies on all these mobile broadband products.


My current fixed line BB has a 2GB limit, which I've only exceeded once or twice and am usually well below. Although, having said that, I do get unlimited transfers from midnight to 8am, which is useful for torrenting.

Ian


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

Pete77 said:


> The UK rates are not as bad although not nearly as good as 3's new service with up to 7Gb of data for full internet for £25 or 1Gb for £15 and 3Gb for £20 per month.
> 
> However it is the monstrous tariffs for data when roaming in other EU contries on a UK Vodafone SIM that I was commenting on. I take it you have not tried using your little Vodafone gadget when you are away on holiday overseas.


Not yet with the new card, but I did check that the £9.99 in Spain etc is for a 24 hr period. So I can log on at 4pm one day and then use it until 3:59pm the next day for one charge (albeit with a 50MB limit - but that's tons for me).

I'm the final resort on support, so I don't get called on often while on hols but when I do get called I need remote desktop/vnc for a couple of hours. Like I say it's perfect for my needs.

I agree that the 3 version looks interesting. I could see that people could start considering that as an alternative for home internet & dumping their phone line.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

These things are cool, I've seen them in action:

http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Sate...nksys/Common/VisitorWrapper&lid=9873239789B06

You just slide your mobile datacard into it and you can turn a 2.5G or 3G connection into a wifi hotspot...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

BrianHughes said:


> I'm the final resort on support, so I don't get called on often while on hols but when I do get called I need remote desktop/vnc for a couple of hours. Like I say it's perfect for my needs.


But your company is footing the bill rather than you is it not. That makes a big difference.

Vodafone's data roaming pricing model works on the rash assumption that all roamers are businessmen and no one can possibly be a holiday maker, a ridiculous assumption in 2007. There is no evening or weekend much lower rate for data when roaming - result holiday makers just don't use it because it is unaffordable.

£10 for one day might be alright if its only just the one day but £10 for 30 days is not is it?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

verses said:


> My current fixed line BB has a 2GB limit, which I've only exceeded once or twice and am usually well below. Although, having said that, I do get unlimited transfers from midnight to 8am, which is useful for torrenting.
> 
> Ian


I bet your 2Gb comes from Sky and is free though. Think what Vodafone would charge you for that much data in another EU member state. Strange isn't it when the price of a coke or a sandwich is much the same as back home.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

terryeden said:


> There is fierce competition in the mobile marketplace. Especially for roaming. If you are unhappy with the rates that Vodafone charge, you have the choice of (in no particular order) Orange, T-Mobile, Virgin, 3, O2, Tesco, ASDA, Skype, a local SIM card, 0044, Truphone, Callblue, and many others.


Would that be the same fierce white hot competition that left incoming call charges to UK mobiles roaming in the EU at about 70p per minute. Vodafone Passport lowered this but only due to its anticompetitive advantage in owning several other EU networks. It shouldn't be necessary to own another network to offer a fair roaming price in that country.

I'm sure its going to take Ms Viviane Reding's regulatory gun to make you chaps in the big four UK mobile companies see any sense on your data roaming prices. Competition only works for something that most consumers are using regularly (as in normal UK calls and data rates). The roaming ripoffs rely on shafting the occasional holidaymaker who doesn't know what they are paying till they get home and get a massive bill.   :down: :down: :down:



> If that fails - http://www.3gpp.org/specs/specs.htm


I didn't find anything that was of use there to a mere roaming consumer.

Coming back to this whole roaming nonsense if you draw up on the forecourt of a French petrol station do they say "zut alors you anglais with your holidays you have totally disrupted our refilling plan for the service station so we will run out early". That means instead of you paying 1.12 Euros for a litre of unleaded like a Frenchman we need to charge you 10 Euros per litre because you are roaming on to our forecourt monsieur.

Of if you go in to a French boulangerie and order a pain au chocalat do they say "oh you are roaming monsieur so instead of 50 cents for a Pain Au Chocalat to a French person that will be 5 Euros to you monsieur.

If you sit down at a French cafe and have 50cl of Stella is it 20 Euros to you as a "roaming" anglais but only 2 Euros to a local French person?

These roaming charges are just old fashioned racketeering by robber barons who think they can get away with it. The only part of the extra roaming charge that is justified is someone calling your UK number getting forwarded to you overseas but as international calls cost around 1p per minute to most countries and calls to UK mobiles are about 7p to 17p per minute from a landline the mobile phone company should have enough margin to afford to do the forwarding and keep you as a loyal and happy customer.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But your company is footing the bill rather than you is it not. That makes a big difference.


Not to whether the system _works_ or not, it doesn't 



Pete77 said:


> I bet your 2Gb comes from Sky and is free though.


That's "free" in the sense of "must have our TV and a phone-line; min cost around £30 per month" I presume?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> That's "free" in the sense of "must have our TV and a phone-line; min cost around £30 per month" I presume?


At least it works unlike the so called "free broadband" from TalkTalk.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I bet your 2Gb comes from Sky and is free though. Think what Vodafone would charge you for that much data in another EU member state. Strange isn't it when the price of a coke or a sandwich is much the same as back home.


You'd lose that bet as my sig testifies/alludes to.

Seems odd to compare a service that some/most would class as a premium/luxury item to basic necessities like food and drink (ok, ok, coke isn't a so much of a necessity).

Ian


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

verses said:


> You'd lose that bet as my sig testifies/alludes to.


I don't see any mention of your ISP in your sig? Only your current tv viewing equipment.



> Seems odd to compare a service that some/most would class as a premium/luxury item to basic necessities like food and drink (ok, ok, coke isn't a so much of a necessity).


I can't see how access to the internet when you are mobile and away from home is a luxury when it becomes ever more critical to most apsects of day to day life (including making phone calls by Voip). Eating Caviar or going to an expensive French restaurant are more normally considered luxuries.

If you go to another country and consume almost any other service there, including eating caviar or drinking champagne you pay the same rate as a local does if you buy it from the same place as a local. But with mobiles if you download data off the same mobile phone mast with a visiting SIM card you are charged up to 1000 times as much for the data as a local. I don't see how that can be right or in line with the operation of normal competitive market forces.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I don't see any mention of your ISP in your sig? Only your current tv viewing equipment.


The sig makes no mention of using Sky, and I believe you need to have a Sky box to get the free Sky BB (I may well be wrong though as I tend to stay clear of all things Murdoch related).



Pete77 said:


> I can't see how access to the internet when you are mobile and away from home is a luxury when it becomes ever more critical to most apsects of day to day life (including making phone calls by Voip).


As with many things 'luxury' is subjective. I rarely make mobile calls in this country, let alone abroad as I tend to see it as an expensive (albeit convenient) way to communicate.
In your argument you mention buying the items while there, ie from a local supplier, so for fair comparison should you not also buy the mobile calls/data from a local provider?

Once again this appears to be going OT.

Ian


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

verses said:


> In your argument you mention buying the items while there, ie from a local supplier, so for fair comparison should you not also buy the mobile calls/data from a local provider?
> 
> Once again this appears to be going OT.


If I roam on Vodafone Spain or Movistar Spain's network with a UK phone I am buying from the local supplier on its mobile mast, just the same as if I took my English body in to their restaurant and drank some Spanish coffee with it.

The concept of roaming and paying far higher tariffs for it is another part of the brilliant world of anti competitive price competition which the mobile phone industry is so good at. And weak and incompetent regulators often let them get away with it. Similarly Vodafone UK still gets away without providing UK pay as you go customers with any form of call itemisation, even online. What other retailers manage to get away with this that do not have mafia like commercial power?

If I take my UK car FM RDS radio to France or Spain it works doesn't it. I don't have to pay an extortionate "roaming" fee in order to use my radio there on foreign stations.

The costs of supporting a roaming customer are no higher than a local one other than the cost of transferring the billing data to a third party overseas but as that is done electronically I'm sure the costs are tiny.

So yes building mobile phone masts and maintaining them is inherently expensive and so that has to be repaid whether the customer is a domestic or a roaming customer using it. My point though is why do I a UK customer have to pay any more for using Vodafone Spain's mast for downloading data than a local customer.

There is no reason. Any more than they have a reason to charge a UK person more for renting the same hotel room than a Spanish person. In fact Vodafone UK should feel privileged to retain my custom while I am on holiday rather than run the risk I may buy it from a local supplier instead and so lose them all of the business.

The current system is just a racket that they are able get away with for the time being due to the ruthless dark anti competitive forces that drive the mobile phone marketplace and fix prices and keep the cost of many types of calls artificially high.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> If I roam on Vodafone Spain or Movistar Spain's network with a UK phone I am buying from the local supplier...


Are you sure? If you have a Movistar SIM, then I would agree, but if you have a SIM from the UK then you will surely pay UK Roaming rates. (Unless I mis-undertsood something )

My dad has a Movistar SIM which he swaps for his UK (Virgin) one to avoid Roaming charges. He's on PAYG though. It might be different with Pay Monthly/Contract.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Are you sure? If you have a Movistar SIM, then I would agree, but if you have a SIM from the UK then you will surely pay UK Roaming rates. (Unless I mis-undertsood something )
> 
> My dad has a Movistar SIM which he swaps for his UK (Virgin) one to avoid Roaming charges. He's on PAYG though. It might be different with Pay Monthly/Contract.


But my point Carl is why are there two price tariffs at all on say Vodafone Spain's mast in Spain - one for a Vodafone Spain SIM card holder and one for a visiting customer on TMobile UK who wishes to use their network.

They both receive the same thing do they not. Namely the ability to make mobile phone calls on that mobile phone mast to particular phone numbers in Spain or back in the UK or anywhere else in the world.

Their current philosphy is surely exactly the same thing as if they said at a petrol filling station. Aha Senor Ingles we only see you down here in the summer months and we have to specially arrange to fill our pumps up far more often for these two months because you are here. So we will charge you 10 times as much per litre as our French customers for the inconvenience you have caused. But they do that do they?

If you in to a Spanish restaurant then in Movistar roaming terms you are clearly a more expensive customer to support because you demand probably to have a menu specially in English and you demand probably to be able to place your order in English. But does receiving service in English at a Spanish restaurant in Spain cost more. No it does not because you are just another customer eating food and they are lucky to have your business.

By accepting the idea that more Eco friendly use of your UK phone in Spain that does not involve wasting resources on packaging and marketing of a separate SIM card to you should inherently cost you more you are with great respect falling for the mobile phone company industry's roaming con. Please explain to me what you are getting when you roam on a Spainish mobile mast that involves paying many times what a local SIM card holder would pay to make exactly the same call to the same destination or receive the same call from the same originating number???

Shell UK do not have your car locked in to an arrangement to only fill up at their filling stations do they. But the mobile industry is able to lock you down to using only their mobile masts in the UK and then because they have you locked in to a service they then try to rip you off even further by charging far more overseas for using precisely the same service a local mobile phone customer is using! :down: :down: :down:


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Once again we are embroiled in a discussion (argument) that is distinctly OT...

How on earth did that happen ?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

alextegg said:


> Once again we are embroiled in a discussion (argument) that is distinctly OT...
> 
> How on earth did that happen ?


The topic was how to use Tivo without a landline. Which led to the suggestion of possibly with a Three mobile data card if you don't have NTL broadband. Still on topic I think.

Which then led to the issue of the costs of data use when roaming. Perhaps slightly off topic but not if you live in the Dover area and try to use your Three mobile data card and find that it has logged on to a 3G network or a French competitor.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

alextegg said:


> How on earth did that happen ?


Pete was here 

Same thing happened to me in another thread a few days ago and I got told off for responding to his OT jibes


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

You read straight through my subtle questioning


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But my point Carl is why are there two price tariffs at all on say Vodafone Spain's mast in Spain - one for a Vodafone Spain SIM card holder and one for a visiting customer on TMobile UK who wishes to use their network.
> 
> They both receive the same thing do they not.


No, they don't. One offers the facility to use your phone in your country of origin for local calls; the other is offering the additional service of being able to use your phone worldwide. This is of significant extra value. Pricing depends on value to the customer, not the cost of service provision.

Vodafone UK pay the Spanish provider to allow your phone to work in Spain because they see that as being of extra value to you. They naturally want you to pay for something which is of value to you. If the only money that changed hands was a local call charge in Spain, there would be nothing for Vodafone UK to even cover their extra costs, let alone make the extra money for providing you with an additional service.

Of course the level of these fees takes the P - largely due to lack of visibility of the charges - but it ridiculous to argue that the Spanish telecom provider and Vodafone UK should provide you with the valuable service of global roaming at no additional charge to yourself.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Of course the level of these fees takes the P - largely due to lack of visibility of the charges - but it ridiculous to argue that the Spanish telecom provider and Vodafone UK should provide you with the valuable service of global roaming at no additional charge to yourself.


I can get the very valuable service of global petrol tank filling from Shell without paying any more at all than the locals do for the privilege. For several years they even used to give me points on the same Shell loyalty card scheme.

The cost of a mobile call is high enough that there ought to be enough there for most it to go to the foreign network operator (who is actually providing the service) with a very small kickback to your UK phone company for introducing the business.

Instead of which your UK phone company tries to charge you 5 times as much as what the local company is getting for handling your call and about 10 times his usual UK rate for the call.

This is what is generally known in economics as an anti competitive cartel.

By the way I can use my regular UK car to consume the petrol on Shell's overseas network of filling stations so how does that vary from using my UK mobile phone on a foreign mobile phone transmitter network? I don't have to hire a local Spanish car to get petrol at the same price as the locals do.

With respect I think you have all been brainwashed in to thinking roaming is something special that demands a premium where it is only actually a way for your home UK network to get a cut on your overseas calls that they would lose altogether if you went off and got an overseas SIM card. So if the market was competitive and there won't major structural imperfections in it (cost of buying a local SIM card and knowing where to buy one and how to install it and language barriers) I would actually expect the cost of roaming to be no more than using a SIM card locally, especially for outgoing calls to the UK and local calls within the country.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> No, they don't. One offers the facility to use your phone in your country of origin for local calls; the other is offering the additional service of being able to use your phone worldwide. ... Vodafone UK pay the Spanish provider to allow your phone to work in Spain because they see that as being of extra value to you.


This was my point; I think 

My (UK) O2 SIM works with Movistar (I think) in Spain but I'm sure the cost for me to call (or text) the UK is more than it would be with one of Movistar's owm SIMs.

It's just that Movistar have allowed O2 users to access their masts (not for free I assume  to make calls. Saves O2 putting up their own I guess 



alextegg said:


> You read straight through my subtle questioning


That was "subtle"?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I can get the very valuable service of global petrol tank filling from Shell without paying any more at all than the locals do for the privilege. For several years they even used to give me points on the same Shell loyalty card scheme.


That analogy doesn't stack, as Shell needs do nothing to have Spanish petrol work in your car. If when abroad you had to buy petrol by getting a Spanish petrol station to arrnage with a UK petrol station to provide you with petrol once you have paid the UK petrol station, and the UK petrol station then sent the money to the Spanish petrol station, you might be a bit closer.



> The cost of a mobile call is high enough that there ought to be enough there for most it to go to the foreign network operator (who is actually providing the service) with a very small kickback to your UK phone company for introducing the business.


I pay nothing per minute provided I don't exceed myy monthly allowance 9which i never do). How does the Spanish telco get a share of that?



> Instead of which your UK phone company tries to charge you 5 times as much as what the local company is getting for handling your call and about 10 times his usual UK rate for the call.
> 
> This is what is generally known in economics as an anti competitive cartel.


No it isn't. Cartel has a very specific meaning, and that isn't it. But I agree that the prices are too high. If there was proper tranparency of pricing, eg I knew which of the half dozen networks I can connect in any given country to is cheapest, then the market would work its magic.



> By the way I can use my regular UK car to consume the petrol on Shell's overseas network of filling stations so how does that vary from using my UK mobile phone on a foreign mobile phone transmitter network? I don't have to hire a local Spanish car to get petrol at the same price as the locals do.


I've already explained that that analogy doesn't work. You car naturally works on Spanish petrol. You phone does not naturally work with Spanish mobile phone system. It works because your phone provider and the Spanish have contracts, share usage information and billing systems in two different currencies.



> With respect I think you have all been brainwashed in to thinking roaming is something special that demands a premium .


I think it's a service for which I'm prepared to pay. The price is too high, I agree, but the idea that it is not a service worth paying for is daft.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> With respect I think you have all been brainwashed in to thinking roaming is something special that demands a premium ....


I love conspiracy theories. Don't believe a word of them, but they're great for a laugh


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Much like Pete.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You might think that.... etc


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I pay nothing per minute provided I don't exceed myy monthly allowance 9which i never do). How does the Spanish telco get a share of that?


You must be talking Vodafone Passport in which case you overlook the 75p flat charge per incoming and outgoing call, a fair chunk of which goes to the Spanish telco. Still I don't suppose a few 75ps would matter much to a man in your position.  



> Your phone does not naturally work with Spanish mobile phone system.


Only because they designed it in that deliberately anti-competitive way and actually it does naturally work with the Spanish phone system as another GSM phone its just the terms of the roaming agreements that are unnatural and defy the normal rules of the free market.

If mobile phone credit could be topped up a phone equivalent of something as homogenous and universally available as petrol and then the networks competed against each other to persuade the customer to make every call they can with them and they couldn't tell if you were a local or a foreign customer then the price would be the same for everyone and it would only be where you are calling that affected the price.

The only legitimate part of roaming charges is for the incoming call because it is forwarded internationally but the charge should reflect the actual costs of carrying out that operation plus a fair margin. At the moment all the main mobile companies agree to rob each other's customers when they roam in a way that doesn't relate to their costs because they then put most of that robbery charge in their pocket. It all relies on customers only being away a couple of weeks a year and the cost of the call not being clearly stated before it is made or taken by the customer.

By the way make sure with Vodafone Passport you aren't calling 084 or 087 UK numbers as they will cost you 75p per minute or £45 per hour and won't be in your bundled minites.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Coming firmly back on topic this News announcement has just appeared on the www.ispreview.co.uk website:-



> The UK wing of little known network equipment specialist, Billion Electric, has introduced a new broadband router that combines support for land-line based ADSL2+ technology with Mobile Broadband (3G) - the 'BiPAC 7300GX'.
> 
> The router comes with an auto-failover that automatically switches over to a 3G connection in the event of ADSL being interrupted and back once ADSL has returned. Typically 3G is the technology used by mobile phone operators to deliver limited wireless broadband services to handsets and laptops.
> 
> ...


So it seems the equipment to allow you to use your Tivo with a 3G mobile phone data connection via a router and without a traditional landline definitely exists. The only issue is the price of 3G data services and the data caps even on the latest offering from Three. You had better now download any tv programs or videoss on a regular basis if you use such a service.

Give it 3 another 6 or 12 months and perhaps Three's pricing and data caps will be more head to head with traditional broadband services..............

Coming back to the Billion router I would have thought than an auto rollover to using a dialup connection as backup is likely to be more useful as if you are using a 3G connection on your router you may well not have an ADSL connection to fall back to.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> You must be talking Vodafone Passport in which case you overlook the 75p flat charge per incoming and outgoing call, a fair chunk of which goes to the Spanish telco. Still I don't suppose a few 75ps would matter much to a man in your position.


I'll ignore the provocation.

You misunderstand. You proposed that a Spanish call should be charged as a UK call. I pay a flat rate for all UK calls up to £35-worth. As I don't make any payment for any individual call, how can the Spanish Telco have a share of nothing?



> Only because they designed it in that deliberately anti-competitive way


Absolute gibberish. To make a UK phone work in Spain requires that two companies in two countries running two different currencies have a system for reporting usage, sharing credit information and transferring funds. If you think that's zero-cost or trivial you are dafter than I thought.


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## alextegg (May 21, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Coming firmly back on topic


Oh the irony...

   ROFLMAO !!!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Absolute gibberish. To make a UK phone work in Spain requires that two companies in two countries running two different currencies have a system for reporting usage, sharing credit information and transferring funds. If you think that's zero-cost or trivial you are dafter than I thought.


But most people have phones deliberately locked by their UK network provider to stop them using a SIM from their foreign competitor when they are abroad. They do this to stop you consuming the normal priced product from the local provider for anti competitive reasons.

The whole thing starts with handset costs being subsidised by the manufacturers in the mobile phone networks in the UK and then hidden major ripoff charges after sale being needed to recoup that. If the regulator stopped the first anti competitive thing happening and made handset subsidies illegal and made it illegal to bar a Uk network from roaming to another network then all the other bads would not follow.

As to your £35 that only covers all your calls in the UK and not the EU too. Even on Vodafone Passport there is a flat 75p charge every time a call is made or received. Everything else is out of the bundled minutes.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But most people have phones deliberately locked by their UK network provider to stop them using a SIM from their foreign competitor when they are abroad.


I know they're (usually ) locked from using another network's SIM here in the UK. I don't know whether any thought at all is given to SIMs from other countries


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I know they're (usually ) locked from using another network's SIM here in the UK. I don't know whether any thought at all is given to SIMs from other countries


They lock them against use by any other SIM card other than one for that UK network. So this includes overseas networks too.

After all if you you could use an overseas SIM card on a new Pay As You Go phone that would be where they would lose the most money of all on your calls.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> After all if you you could use an overseas SIM card on a new Pay As You Go phone that would be where they would lose the most money of all on your calls.


Erm... yeah. I'm really gonna buy a (eg) Spanish SIM to use in the UK


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Erm... yeah. I'm really gonna buy a (eg) Spanish SIM to use in the UK


I meant if you used a Spanish SIM in your UK phone when you are in Spain instead of their UK network SIM they will lose lots of money if you are a chat and textaholic.

Ditto if you could insert a SIM for one of the other four UK networks in your subsidised Pay As You Go handset in the UK they would lose lots of money as well.

In general the Pay As You Go operators only let you unlock your handset after 12 months and some also charge you a significant fee to do so while some like Vodafone will do it for free after the first 12 months are up. But they will only unlock it if you understand about locking in the first place and ask them to unlock it.

Jo Average won't know about such things and just say "bloody Spanish SIM cards are no good - wouldn't work in my phone"- and blame it on the Spanish network operator.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But most people have phones deliberately locked by their UK network provider to stop them using a SIM from their foreign competitor when they are abroad. They do this to stop you consuming the normal priced product from the local provider for anti competitive reasons.


The locking is to stop you switching providers in the UK easily with a subsidised handset.



> The whole thing starts with handset costs being subsidised by the manufacturers in the mobile phone networks in the UK and then hidden major ripoff charges after sale being needed to recoup that. If the regulator stopped the first anti competitive thing happening and made handset subsidies illegal and made it illegal to bar a Uk network from roaming to another network then all the other bads would not follow.


Except the "handsets costing £00s because there's no subsidy" bad...

No such thing as a free lunch.



> As to your £35 that only covers all your calls in the UK and not the EU too. Even on Vodafone Passport there is a flat 75p charge every time a call is made or received. Everything else is out of the bundled minutes.


I'm not with Vodafone, so i wouldn't know, but I though your whole point was that there should not be a 75p or any other charge. 

Your obsession with phone charging minutiae is mildly quaint.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> In general the Pay As You Go operators only let you unlock your handset after 12 months and some also charge you a significant fee to do so while some like Vodafone will do it for free after the first 12 months are up. But they will only unlock it if you understand about locking in the first place and ask them to unlock it.
> 
> Jo Average won't know about such things and just say "bloody Spanish SIM cards are no good - wouldn't work in my phone"- and blame it on the Spanish network operator.


Most High Streets have a shop which will unlock your phone for £5-£10. Some phones can be done over the web.


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