# TivoCast: What's in it for Tivo?



## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

From USAToday:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-06-06-tivo-web-video_x.htm?csp=34

and the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114963329219273095.html?mod=yahoo_hs&ru=yahoo

Tivo partnering with 10 video providers that will apparently provide ad supported videos through Tivo.

According to USAToday, CEO Rogers is quoted: "Rogers says that no cash will change hands in the deals".

So, if the source providers provide the videos, keep all the ad revenue while Tivo supplies the bandwidth, what's in it for Tivo?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The answer is right there in the first article...



> These and other recent enhancements are part of TiVo's effort to raise the bar for DVR services and show consumers that they get more value for the higher prices it charges vs. more basic DVRs from cable and satellite companies.


TiVo is doing everything it can to make it's $12.95 a month worth it to consumers.

Dan


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Yeah, it is a marketing benefit.

And these are the first trickle of what they hope will be a flood. It is a toe in the water for both sides - TiVo and the content providers. If this catches on, and I think it will, then we'll see more - and we'll see them start charging users for content. Rocketboom and CNet were the first drips that started the trickle. Hopefully it will keep growing.

I REALLY want to see The Anime Network on TiVoCast. It is already an 'OnDemand' cable network, so the business model is there.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

Not that it'll ever happen, but after looking hard at the $44+ I pay for basic analog cable and the alternatives - which amount to a few bucks off for similiar packages from dish, direct and fios - I would love a la carte 'show' programming.

s.


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## miller890 (Feb 15, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> The answer is right there in the first article...
> 
> TiVo is doing everything it can to make it's $12.95 a month worth it to consumers.
> 
> Dan


Remember the Premium Channel Showcases (HBO, Showtime, and Cinemax) they had a couple years back. You could quickly find a few interesting movies or shows without paging through page after page of replays. Tivo - Bring back the useful showcases!


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Yeah, heard about this on CNN HDLN (XM) this morning.


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## hawk4hire (Jan 20, 2004)

Cable TV is gonna love the competition for VOD. But hey - if Tivo can turn a profit outta this go for it! I guess this was the trade for having Lifetime subs (haha - kidding).


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

megazone said:


> I REALLY want to see The Anime Network on TiVoCast. It is already an 'OnDemand' cable network, so the business model is there.


I'd be amongst the first to sign up for it. Right now we subscribe the on demand channel from Cablevision but I'd love to be able to have TiVo control of the content.

BTW, are you coming down to AnimeNEXT this year?


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

But, as I have said before, I think that TiVo is missing out. With the growth of vblogs, ANY video blog is a potential source of entertainment.

We already have TiVo Desktop installed on thousands of PCs. If TiVo Desktop had the ability to transcode the popular vblog formats to MPEG2 and push it to your TiVo, you have another video source that is open to anyone who knows how to setup a vblog.

If TiVo Desktop added bittorrent functionality, it becomes a whole new ballgame. TiVo would control the software, so they could force TiVo Desktop to only get content from TiVo run and controlled trackers. This gives TiVo a way of controlling content to prevent copyrighted material from being presented for download. TiVo would even have the option of making this a subscription model where you would increase your monthly fee to access certain "channel subscriptions". Since they would be using bittorrent, the increase in bandwidth costs would be low.

With the increased number of codecs supported and the increased power of the hardware, the TiVo 3 might be able to eliminate the need for a PC running TiVo Desktop...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

megazone said:


> Yeah, it is a marketing benefit.
> 
> And these are the first trickle of what they hope will be a flood. It is a toe in the water for both sides - TiVo and the content providers. If this catches on, and I think it will, then we'll see more - and we'll see them start charging users for content. Rocketboom and CNet were the first drips that started the trickle. Hopefully it will keep growing.


I think you are spot on, as far as you go. But if demand is significant, TiVo will eventually be able to collect revenue from advertisements or from the content provider on a per-download basis, while keeping a lot of the content free for subscribers.

Another benefit to TiVo is that the availability of this content will encourage people to connect their TiVos by broadband, making them available to more of TiVo's advanced advertising and service features, and lowering the cost for TiVo to provide the service. (Plus, they'll sell more of the "high-margin" wireless adapters.)


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Since TiVo alreadys has a large "geek" ratio, partnering with someone like Technical Video Rental to provide a VOD service could pull some of the "ubergeeks" back into the fold. I know several former TiVo users who have gone off and built their own PC based video recorders.

Since duplicating or even improving TiVo functionality is only a matter of software development in this arena, I see "TiVo only content" as the main way to pull some of these folks back into the fold.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Scott Atkinson said:


> Not that it'll ever happen, but after looking hard at the $44+ I pay for basic analog cable and the alternatives - which amount to a few bucks off for similiar packages from dish, direct and fios - I would love a la carte 'show' programming.


Give it a couple years. TiVo 3 prices come down. You can get local channels in HDTV with a simple antenna. You can get HDTV "cable shows" over the Internet via TiVoCast. As I said above, the technology is here to do this TODAY with an updated version of TiVo Desktop, but TiVo still needs access to content to make this work.

Content is the key.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

TiVo's press release is up on tivo.com now:
http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=199725


> During The Finals, which tip off on Thursday, June 8 on ABC, a special "Finals Showcase" video package highlighting the greatest Finals moments in NBA History will be available for fans to view on TiVo.


I'm happy it's going to be available so quickly after the official announcement.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

The three last words of the press release excite me... I'm happy to see TiVo hasn't given up on PPV. I hope this service/demonstration is enough to sway some of the larger content providers to hop on board. I really really want movies on demand through my TiVo and I'm willing to pay.



> For TiVo's broadband video content partners, the agreement delivers access to more than 400,000 TiVo subscribers and enables consumers to easily access the content directly from their television sets in their homes. TiVo will give these outlets a platform to reach their consumers and enthusiasts in a direct and effective way, providing them a vital opportunity to be profitable through distribution, introduction of advertising, subscription plans, or *pay- per-view*.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

> Cable companies remain wary of broadband video, and it won't be part of a DVR service TiVo is building for Comcast and, perhaps, other operators.


So Comcast has already started crippling their TiVo service


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

morac said:


> So Comcast has already started crippling their TiVo service


The box has to have broadband access in the first place. Do the Comcast DVRs even have internet access?


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Comcast is an ISP as well, and I thought ISP's were generally against the concept of Video over IP as an everyday delivery method.
Their stance is that if this suddenly became popular, their current infrastructure couldn't handle the traffic.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> But, as I have said before, I think that TiVo is missing out. With the growth of vblogs, ANY video blog is a potential source of entertainment.


I think TiVo doesn't want to have any more transcoding issues to deal with. If they offer more vblogs, it will be through this type of service. Then they can setup the transcoding on their servers and users will not have to deal with the hassle.

Plus, the whole point of the services is to bring them to you on your TV. If you have to install software and use your computer, it sort of defeats the purpose of using TiVo as a internet appliance in your entertainment center.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Plus, the whole point of the services is to bring them to you on your TV. If you have to install software and use your computer, it sort of defeats the purpose of using TiVo as a internet appliance in your entertainment center.


Yes, you install the software on your PC, but after that, everything is controlled through the TiVo interface on your TV. That is essentially how Galleon works today once you have it setup (with the appropriate plug-ins).


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> Yes, you install the software on your PC, but after that, everything is controlled through the TiVo interface on your TV. That is essentially how Galleon works today once you have it setup (with the appropriate plug-ins).


That is why Galleon is a advanced users tool. There's a reason why TiVo developed HME and is now using it more and more. The ability to perform functions that use to require you to use your PC and go to the website and now becoming more and more obsolete.

They have already announced RocketBoom will be included with this new feature. So why would they change it for other vblogs?


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

rainwater said:


> They have already announced RocketBoom will be included with this new feature. So why would they change it for other vblogs?


If you are running Galleon or even TiVo Desktop at the house, you are almost certainly an "advanced TiVo user". It is my experience that most of these people are also some of the biggest TiVo champions out there spreading the TiVo gospel. They also tend to be internet savvy folks who listen to podcasts, view vblogs, etc. Since Galleon allows you to download vblogs in almost any format and transcode them to MPEG2, the functionality is there today and is being used by thousands of TiVo users. In summary, there is already a market out there doing it, so bring that market back into the fold.

Now move to the other end of the chain for the opposite viewpoint. I am a film student and want to make my own movie or tv show. I get a decent HDTV camera and recruit some drama majors. I write up a decent script and start shooting. I now have a decent movie with no distribution mechanism. Yes, I can vblog, but you are almost certainly relying on word of mouth and hope that viewers will find your movie. Suddenly TiVo introduces a mechanism where anyone can drop content into the TiVoCast system. Once you get a couple of viewers, your movie starts showing up in recommendations for other folks. A few of them watch it and the ball is rolling.

If TiVoCast grows to its full potential, the entire video distribution model changes.

The longer TiVo takes to realize this, the greater chance that Hollywood has of killing it before it ever happens. I predict that the biggest threat to TiVoCast is going to be the MPAA and the legislature they push to Congress through donations.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

So what are the mechanics here?

Do you sign up on TiVo's website for what you want, and then the videos get downloaded at some somewhat undefined time as they become available? or

Is this a "browser" where you look up or search the available content, hit "download" and start watching in realtime? or

Something else?


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> So what are the mechanics here?


That depends on the technology chosen. If I were put as the technical architect over the project, I would base it on current proven technology.

You would have an extra menu choice in "Pick Programs To Record" for TiVoCast. You would then be able to search for "shows" through this menu just like you do for regular tv shows. TiVo would get this data from the content providers.

Content Prodivers would install software on their PC/Server (TiVoCaster?) that included the TiVoTorrent functionality. The content provider would fill in the metadata (show name, description, categories, rating, etc.) for the show. The software would determine length and other technical information. The software would render the show in the appropriate format and create a torrent file for the show. It would also start the TiVoTorrent functionality and begin sharing (or "seeding" in bittorrent terminology) the show from the content provider's PC/Server. The torrent file would be uploaded to TiVo for hosting.

When you select to record the show from the TiVoCast menu or from Recommendations, TiVo would communicate this to the TiVo Desktop. TiVo Desktop would download the torrent file from TiVo. It would turn on the TiVoTorrent functionality and connect to the TiVo Tracker hosting that torrent. It would connect to seeds and peers and start downloading the video.

Originally, the uploaded copy of the video would be the only "seed" in the torrent. As more people downloaded the video, there would be more copies out there to download from so there would be faster download times.

Once the download is complete, TiVo Desktop does any required transcoding to MPEG2. TiVo Desktop and TiVo communicate and the TiVo downloads the show from the PC. Once this is completed, TiVo Desktop again contacts the TiVo Tracker and begins "seeding" the file for others to download. Once you have uploaded the equivelent of 2.5 (or whatever) copies of the show, TiVo Desktop turns off the TiVoTorrent functionality and stops using your bandwidth.

To the user, once they subscribed, the show would just appear at some random time just like c|net and RocketBoom do today.

If the show was a series with episodes that came out every so often, TiVo could also create a RSS file for the series. This would allow the user to setup a Season Pass for the show. When TiVo "phoned home", it would download the RSS file and see if a new episode had come out. If so, it would initiate the download process as described above for that episode.

If you came into the series after several episodes had already been released, that is okay because you could go back and download them from the first one and watch them in order.

So, in summary, TiVo would need to create a new version of TiVo Desktop that included bittorrent functionality. They would also need to create a new program for content providers (TiVoCaster). They would need some servers to host the torrent files that the content providers uploaded. They would also have a bump up in bandwidth usage from users hitting the tracker and downloading the torrent files, but I would not think this would be a significant increase.

Once this was in place, TiVo would have total control of the torrent files and the tracker. Users would not be able to download the content without going through TiVo.

TiVo could then add user level authentication so that content providers could do a pay-per-view or pay subscription deal. TiVo subscribers sign-up for the show and the charges are added to their monthly TiVo bill. TiVo collects this money, keeps a percentage, and passes the rest back to the content providers.

If you convinced a "big name" to create a 4 episode show to be distributed in a PPV or subscription fashion, this would take off. I am thinking along the lines of Josh Weadon doing a 4 episode FireFly mini-series or something similar. TiVo would suddenly become a new, inexpensive distribution model for video.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

hfwarner3 said:


> You would have an extra menu choice in "Pick Programs To Record" for TiVoCast. You would then be able to search for "shows" through this menu just like you do for regular tv shows. TiVo would get this data from the content providers.
> 
> Content Prodivers would install software on their PC/Server (TiVoCaster?) that included the TiVoTorrent functionality. The content provider would fill in the metadata (show name, description, categories, rating, etc.) for the show. The software would determine length and other technical information. The software would render the show in the appropriate format and create a torrent file for the show. It would also start the TiVoTorrent functionality and begin sharing (or "seeding" in bittorrent terminology) the show from the content provider's PC/Server. The torrent file would be uploaded to TiVo for hosting.


The interface will most likely be an HME app that allows you to subscribe like Product Watch. I think most of the initial run of content will be provided by their sources and TiVo either in the form needed or massaged as needed (such as they do with CNET, Rocketboom, Navy football, etc). Long term, TiVo's announced relationship with Brightcove will facilitate video preparation/distribution - that's what Brightcove does. As far as delivery, I don't think it will be live/immediate download... not yet.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

morac said:


> So Comcast has already started crippling their TiVo service


I'm only speculating, but that might be because TiVo began developing these features only after the software for comcast was spec'd out and under active development. It's possible that Comcast will eventually allow it(for instance, I could see them happy to provide it, if they can get a piece of the ad revenue).


hfwarner3 said:


> The box has to have broadband access in the first place. Do the Comcast DVRs even have internet access?


The box TiVo is initially targetting(AFAIK) has ethernet, firewire, usb, and can function as DOCSIS modem(all these are hardware features and not all of them are enabled in the current various box softwares). So the capability would be there. The old Comcast/TiVo announcement did specifically mention enabling advanced features such as music and photos, so a local area network connection would have to be present for those features.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

With the current S2 hardware, I still don't see Tivo providing any type of downloadable content except for short clips. Movie downloads prove too cumbersome with Mpeg2 format (ie size, bandwidth, and length of time to download).
I wouldn't sign up for a movie length download from Tivo, since it may interfere with work, gaming, or other Internet intensive things I might be doing at any time.

Mpeg4 downloads are feasible for the S3 hardware....but that would be so far off into the future for it to become a major percentage of Tivos in households, that it's probably not worth talking about now.

'Course if HFWarner is correct, and Tivo is developing a PC/Desktop component that interfaces with the Tivo GUI, and allows auto-downloading and transcoding on the PC, then it maybe feasible. But that too seems like it would be a long way off as well, considering how long it usually takes new major features to be tested and implemented. Plus you start having to think about hardware limitations on the PC side....sigh.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Well, clearly the mechanics are completely vague at this point.

BTW: HFWarner3 shows tremendous insight and vision, but that's not what TiVo is doing.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Stu_Bee said:


> 'Course if HFWarner is correct, and Tivo is developing a PC/Desktop component that interfaces with the Tivo GUI, and allows auto-downloading and transcoding on the PC, then it maybe feasible. But that too seems like it would be a long way off as well, considering how long it usually takes new major features to be tested and implemented. Plus you start having to think about hardware limitations on the PC side....sigh.


'Cept that Galleon combined with VLC Player already does this today. You aren't inventing something new, just duplicating something that exists.

And if TiVo open-sourced the TiVo desktop software and allowed volunteers to help write the code...


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Stu_Bee said:


> Comcast is an ISP as well, and I thought ISP's were generally against the concept of Video over IP as an everyday delivery method.
> Their stance is that if this suddenly became popular, their current infrastructure couldn't handle the traffic.


You have a good point here, but bandwidth costs are going down while capacities continue to rise. At some point their infrastructure should be able to handle this, because like it or not, people are already doing lots and lots of video-over-ip without any additional help from Comcast beyond the pipe.


> With the current S2 hardware, I still don't see Tivo providing any type of downloadable content except for short clips. Movie downloads prove too cumbersome with Mpeg2 format (ie size, bandwidth, and length of time to download).
> I wouldn't sign up for a movie length download from Tivo, since it may interfere with work, gaming, or other Internet intensive things I might be doing at any time.


The Red Trousers test movie TiVo did last fall/winter took a little over 3 hours to download to my box and looked very high-quality. I noticed no difference to my other internet activities. I admit I am not a gamer or heavy duty downloader.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> 'Cept that Galleon combined with VLC Player already does this today. You aren't inventing something new, just duplicating something that exists.
> 
> And if TiVo open-sourced the TiVo desktop software and allowed volunteers to help write the code...


I don't think they can do that, I believe they've licensed technologies from other people that might object to the code being open.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

gonzotek said:


> The Red Trousers test movie TiVo did last fall/winter took a little over 3 hours to download to my box and looked very high-quality. I noticed no difference to my other internet activities. I admit I am not a gamer or heavy duty downloader.


And you should be able to shrink content to about one-fifth to one-tenth of its MPEG2 size by moving to MPEG4. If done right, the quality will be the same. I have downloaded MPEG4 blogs that are about 300 MBs in size, have about an hour of content, and they look fine on the TiVo when I take them to MPEG2. Of course, the MPEG2 file might be over a gigabyte!

Today we have to do this on a PC and then pull the content from the PC to the TiVo. With TiVo3 you should be able to remove the PC from the equation.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

gonzotek said:


> I don't think they can do that, I believe they've licensed technologies from other people that might object to the code being open.


Hmmm. Galleon contains all the functionality of TiVo Desktop plus a whole mess of things that TiVo Desktop doesn't have. It would seem to me that if TiVo just setup a project on SourceForge to write a TiVo-backed and approved version of TiVo Desktop (OpenTiVo?) that they would have a decent beta of this type functionality within a year. TiVo would not have to provide a single line of code, so no licensing contractrs broken. They could just put up a wishlist of what they would like to see and set some standards on protocols and such.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> And you should be able to shrink content to about one-fifth to one-tenth of its MPEG2 size by moving to MPEG4. If done right, the quality will be the same. I have downloaded MPEG4 blogs that are about 300 MBs in size, have about an hour of content, and they look fine on the TiVo when I take them to MPEG2. Of course, the MPEG2 file might be over a gigabyte!


I understand that, but TiVo currently has over 400,000 MPEG2-capable broadband-connected TiVo S2 units in operation, and no mpeg4-capable S3s in operation.


> Today we have to do this on a PC and then pull the content from the PC to the TiVo. With TiVo3 you should be able to remove the PC from the equation.


That's only partially true. There are a LOT of varieties of 'next-gen' low-bandwidth codecs. While I'm sure there will be files we can just drop onto the device without conversion, I'm equally sure we'll run into many oddball types that still require a transcode to something the S3 can understand.


> Hmmm. Galleon contains all the functionality of TiVo Desktop plus a whole mess of things that TiVo Desktop doesn't have. It would seem to me that if TiVo just setup a project on SourceForge to write a TiVo-backed and approved version of TiVo Desktop (OpenTiVo?) that they would have a decent beta of this type functionality within a year. TiVo would not have to provide a single line of code, so no licensing contractrs broken. They could just put up a wishlist of what they would like to see and set some standards on protocols and such.


Already exists:
http://tivo.com/developer/

/edit: Galleon doesn't do one thing that TD does: enable TTG playback(the tivo desktop decryption filter).


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

davezatz said:


> As far as delivery, I don't think it will be live/immediate download... not yet.


I think this is a bigger sticking point than 'not yet,' though I would love to be wrong.

Scott A.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Scott Atkinson said:


> I think this is a bigger sticking point than 'not yet,' though I would love to be wrong.
> 
> Scott A.


Point to the immediate-gratification junkie (in us all  ). However, if it could queue up many things to download from an (virtually) inifinite pool of content(amateur and professional alike), as opposed to VODs "Walled Garden" approach, I'd be all over that. And like Dave said, for the good content (popular movies with decent PQ) I'd happily pay(at the right price).


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

I guess I'm saying - without really knowing what I'm talking about - is that getting sporting events and news in real time at even decent analog quality will be challenging for the forseeable future. 

s.


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## mrbonuscup (Oct 17, 2003)

I have a HDR112 with a wireless card and hard drive upgrades. Will this VOD be supported or am I out of luck ?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Scott Atkinson said:


> I guess I'm saying - without really knowing what I'm talking about - is that getting sporting events and news in real time at even decent analog quality will be challenging for the forseeable future.
> 
> s.


Thats not really the point of IPTV. Its more of cart system. You setup what you want to see and it comes down the pipe to your box in its on time.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Thats not really the point of IPTV. Its more of cart system. You setup what you want to see and it comes down the pipe to your box in its on time.


Understood...but other than us geeks, I'm not sure who's willing to use one system to get movies and another to watch the Cubs lose again.

s.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Scott Atkinson said:


> Understood...but other than us geeks, I'm not sure who's willing to use one system to get movies and another to watch the Cubs lose again.
> 
> s.


You aren't going to see sports on systems like these. You may see sports related shows/recaps/etc, but not live events.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

mrbonuscup said:


> I have a HDR112 with a wireless card and hard drive upgrades. Will this VOD be supported or am I out of luck ?


That's a Series1, it definitely won't be supported.


Scott Atkinson said:


> I guess I'm saying - without really knowing what I'm talking about - is that getting sporting events and news in real time at even decent analog quality will be challenging for the forseeable future.


Yep. But based on Dave's little 'research project' with the march madness broadcasts, I'd say that's true even after you remove TiVo from the picture and do it on a regular PC. TCP/IP isn't designed for 'real-time'. Packets can get lost, arrive out of order, and collisions happen. The protocol is designed to recover from many error conditions and get you the intact data, but at the expense of time. Usually we're talking about very small amounts of time and data loss, but with the size of video content and distances it might have to travel, those little amounts can add up fast!


> Understood...but other than us geeks, I'm not sure who's willing to use one system to get movies and another to watch the Cubs lose again.


That's where TiVo comes in: you set up your season passes and wishlists for broadcast and broadband alike, and just watch it from NPL. Live stuff just requires a trip to "Live TV". It's all done from the same remote.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

So where does Tivo's (or anyone's) IPTV fit? If it's a straight VOD system, it could be useful - but so's Blockbuster and NetFlix. If it's original programming (four more episodes of Firefly?) it seems kinda 'niche-y' to me.

Don't get me wrong; if Tivo offers it, I'll probably use it. I just have a hard time seeing how it works without a broad base of content, including sports.

s.

edit -



gonzotek said:


> That's where TiVo comes in: you set up your season passes and wishlists for broadcast and broadband alike, and just watch it from NPL. Live stuff just requires a trip to "Live TV". It's all done from the same remote.


.
Of course. I'm having one of those very thick 'my brain hurts' days.

s.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Thats not really the point of IPTV. Its more of cart system. You setup what you want to see and it comes down the pipe to your box in its on time.


It depends how we define IPTV. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what the content is or how it's delivered. I'd lump Verizon's FiOS into IPTV and it seems as a solid as traditional "cable."

There are examples (Xbox 360, Akimbo) of services that download content immediately on request. Others allow you to watch content as it's downloaded (Vongo, Movielink) though these are PC based.

Even if TiVo infrastructure could provide instant downloads (and I bet they could), I have a feeling the antiquated S2 hardware wouldn't be able to handle it real time while performing it's other duties at 100%.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Scott Atkinson said:


> So where does Tivo's (or anyone's) IPTV fit? If it's a straight VOD system, it could be useful - but so's Blockbuster and NetFlix. If it's original programming (four more episodes of Firefly?) it seems kinda 'niche-y' to me.
> 
> Don't get me wrong; if Tivo offers it, I'll probably use it. I just have a hard time seeing how it works without a broad base of content, including sports.
> 
> s.


Tell it to the content owners.  The best delivery system ever imagined is useless without something to deliver.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

gonzotek said:


> But based on Dave's little 'research project' with the march madness broadcasts, I'd say that's true even after you remove TiVo from the picture and do it on a regular PC. TCP/IP isn't designed for 'real-time'. Packets can get lost, arrive out of order, and collisions happen. The protocol is designed to recover from many error conditions and get you the intact data, but at the expense of time. Usually we're talking about very small amounts of time and data loss, but with the size of video content and distances it might have to travel, those little amounts can add up fast!


There does seem to be plenty of potential for error/drops with a live transmission, but having tried Vongo's live stream of Starz I feel more optomistic. Their service in general is well done. Not sure how long the $9.99/mo for unlimited movie downloads and live Starz feed pricing can last - but it's a very nice service at a great price for the moment. The x factor is that SD sets don't need high resolution content to look decent, whereas my Sling/CBS shoot out was on a higher resolution PC with my face only about 18" away.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

Stu_Bee said:


> Comcast is an ISP as well, and I thought ISP's were generally against the concept of Video over IP as an everyday delivery method.
> Their stance is that if this suddenly became popular, their current infrastructure couldn't handle the traffic.


That's not entirely true, it's not crippling it, it's not providing content from people we don't have agreements with.

Video is moving towards IP based anyways even within our network.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

davezatz said:


> The x factor is that SD sets don't need high resolution content to look decent, whereas my Sling/CBS shoot out was on a higher resolution PC with my face only about 18" away.


Not to promote thread creep, but...

this interests me.

I watch almost all my tv in standard lo-fi def on sets between 13 and 27 inches, even though there are hi-def boxes and tvs in my place of business, and I could get one for home if I wanted it.

I don't want it, at least not much. DVDs look about as good, IMHO, in SD or ED as they do in high def and as for the rest of it, 'Everybody Loves Raymond' is just fine in SD.

I would gladly trade out higher def for standard def that downloads reasonably quickly. As Dave suggests, a compressed SD show would probably look ok, or as ok as I want it.

s.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Scott Atkinson said:


> I guess I'm saying - without really knowing what I'm talking about - is that getting sporting events and news in real time at even decent analog quality will be challenging for the forseeable future.


Well, the TiVo3 has the HDTV, so you use the antenna for the local channels and the TiVoCast for the kind of content you would normally find on the Internet or on "cable channels".


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Scott Atkinson said:


> So where does Tivo's (or anyone's) IPTV fit? If it's a straight VOD system, it could be useful - but so's Blockbuster and NetFlix. If it's original programming (four more episodes of Firefly?) it seems kinda 'niche-y' to me.


The niche market is where I see this all picking up speed. If we are talking about the TiVo Desktop/Galleon/HMO crowd, we are talking geeks. Geeks have their favorite niches - anime, sci fi, etc. Pick a couple of those niches and run with them just to get the eyeball count up. Once you reach a certain point, you start attracting the mainstream.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

hfwarner3 said:


> But, as I have said before, I think that TiVo is missing out. With the growth of vblogs, ANY video blog is a potential source of entertainment.
> 
> We already have TiVo Desktop installed on thousands of PCs. If TiVo Desktop had the ability to transcode the popular vblog formats to MPEG2 and push it to your TiVo, you have another video source that is open to anyone who knows how to setup a vblog.
> 
> If TiVo Desktop added bittorrent functionality, it becomes a whole new ballgame. ..


well the tech points are all good and indeed can be done with some open source stuff now. But TiVo is much better off offiically staying far away from letting anything on the interent get to the TiVo. As you point out they would have to play a large content cop role and even if they did it perfectly providers would still point to just the perception that copyrighted material could be misused to keep TiVo from getting far in this brave new world.

Plus the support of just the video displaying properly would eat at that bottom line.

TiVoPony talked about the same sort of thing some with the audio podcasting feature and the fact it is not a full TiVo interface of being able to pause rewind etc.. and it all comes through TiVo inc. (sort of) not your PC. He cited the same problems I outline above.

Sadly it is a world where TiVo inc. will have to keep a tight reign adn not offiically give us the ability to turn a PC into a internet vaccuum.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

smark said:


> That's not entirely true, it's not crippling it, it's not providing content from people we don't have agreements with.
> Video is moving towards IP based anyways even within our network.


Here's the kinda story I was referring to, when I said ISP's probably aren't looking forward to mass popularity of video delivery via the internet.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060522/BIZ02/605220312/1076/rss01


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well the tech points are all good and indeed can be done with some open source stuff now. But TiVo is much better off offiically staying far away from letting anything on the interent get to the TiVo. As you point out they would have to play a large content cop role and even if they did it perfectly providers would still point to just the perception that copyrighted material could be misused to keep TiVo from getting far in this brave new world.


This is why I was so specific about every piece of the equation using TiVo software. The only path for video to enter the TiVoCast system would be through this TiVoCaster software and the TiVo Tracker servers. You care not allowed to put anything on the servers without a validated account. This would not be something opened up for anonymous uploading but would instead be a more controlled environment with a usage agreement that throws you to the wolves if you put "pirate" video into the system.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Plus the support of just the video displaying properly would eat at that bottom line.


The video can only be put into the TiVoCast system using TiVo software - so the can validate that the end result will be playable.



ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVoPony talked about the same sort of thing some with the audio podcasting feature and the fact it is not a full TiVo interface of being able to pause rewind etc.. and it all comes through TiVo inc. (sort of) not your PC. He cited the same problems I outline above.
> 
> Sadly it is a world where TiVo inc. will have to keep a tight reign adn not offiically give us the ability to turn a PC into a internet vaccuum.


I fully agree that TiVo, for legal, technical, and logistical reasons, needs to control the entire pipe, front to back. If the only way in is through TiVo software, the only way to discover is on TiVo servers, the only way to distribute is using TiVo software, and the only way to watch is on a DRM'ed TiVo, I think you have covered your bases.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

megazone said:


> Yeah, it is a marketing benefit.


Doesn't there have to be some "marketing" to have any "benefit"? 

As long as this gets us to IP/PPV where Tivo gets a cut, I'm all for it.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> Doesn't there have to be some "marketing" to have any "benefit"?


Hey, they put out a press release, what more can they do? You want maybe TiVo should sponsor a Formula 1 team?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> Hey, they put out a press release, what more can they do? You want maybe TiVo should sponsor a Formula 1 team?


OK. I'm a current sub. How do I learn about this feature and how to use it?

OR

I'm not a Tivo sub, but I heard about this today. How do I learn about what Tivo is and understand that "Tivo" is different from the "Tivo that my cable company" has?

Tivo STILL hasn't had any kind of marketing campaign to educate potential onsumers.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> Hey, they put out a press release, what more can they do? You want maybe TiVo should sponsor a Formula 1 team?


That's exactly what I wanted to say. PR out, time to go home after picking up newly issued stock options on the way out the door.



> The content will be offered free of charge to subscribers. TiVo and its partners
> will have the ability to integrate advertising within the content.


I'm interested in a reconciliation of this with the no money changing hands comment, especially since nothing in the formal PR talks about that, and the last thing I'd like to rely on is some quote in a USA Today Article.

It opens the question as to whether TiVo has rights to tag its ads onto the content and keep those revenues for itself - like local ads on cable vs network...


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

jfh3 said:


> I'm not a Tivo sub, but I heard about this today. How do I learn about what Tivo is and understand that "Tivo" is different from the "Tivo that my cable company" has?
> 
> Tivo STILL hasn't had any kind of marketing campaign to educate potential onsumers.


They're doing a good job staying in the press. My local news had coverage of this announcement. I'm not sure if it's enough to "educate" those potential consumers, but keeping the name out there can't be bad for business.

As far as current subscribers, I don't think they make enough use of TiVo system messages or the TiVo interface to get the word out. Why not change the color of some new menu item or make it blink. Now that the Product Watch announcements have come and gone, will folks who missed them never find/use the feature? It's a problem... The never-ending menu of that Music, Photos, Etc menu doesn't help either and I assume the Video Downloads will end up there as well. I hope they have some better organization coming. TiVo's stregnth was making complicated things simple (and they still do pure DVR-functionality GUI better than anyone else), but there's so many new, random/unorganized features that are not well presented or communicated/explained.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> ]I'm interested in a reconciliation of this with the no money changing hands comment, especially since nothing in the formal PR talks about that, and the last thing I'd like to rely on is some quote in a USA Today Article.


I remember reading that with the Guru Guides announcement as well Hmmm... I buy it - these initial small partners will hopefully lead to larger, paying partners.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

davezatz said:


> or make it blink


Good points overall, but please for the love of all things good in this world, let this not happen. I have enough *blinken lights* in my life.  Give it a different color, font, special icon, and/or size, no problems. Just don't make it blink, scroll, crawl, or have a repeating sound.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

jfh3 said:


> Tivo STILL hasn't had any kind of marketing campaign to educate potential onsumers.


And to that I say "Thank, God." My Formula 1 suggestion would be more productive and cost effective. Let the cable companies, satellite companies, media and word of mouth do the educating of potential customers. As someone whose name I can't recall at the moment (and am too lazy to look up) once said: "Education is usually futile except in those cases where it is superfluous." TiVo's marketing effort should be expended on offering the product to consumers in markets where there is no competition, and differentiating the product in markets where there is. (Telling existing customers is easy -- drop in a TiVo Central promo featuring Shanan telling us all about it, and you're done.)

BTW, in my original post I was kidding. Maybe that didn't come through.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> That's exactly what I wanted to say. PR out, time to go home after picking up newly issued stock options on the way out the door.


Dude, you are like the nabob of negativity around here. Have a drink, chill out -- everything is starting to gel for little TiVo.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

VinceA said:


> BTW, are you coming down to AnimeNEXT this year?


Funny you mention that, yesterday out of the blue I thought about doing that. I haven't been to a con in a while (well, other than staffing PMX last year) and I enjoyed AnimeNEXT when I went. I might go this year.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Who do you contact at TiVo to suggest other sources of content? TiVoPony? There are a few sources of Catholic content out there that give their content away for free, so I am sure there are other religious sources doing the same. 

Last time I checked, EWTN is free-to-air. I don't think it would be too hard to cut a deal with them. I also have a contact at Catholic Family Land that I am pretty sure would be willing to come to an arrangement to get their video content flowing.

There are several catholic families in our area (besides us) that have repeatedly voiced frustration over the difficulty and/or expense of getting EWTN. ComCast makes you get the Digital Plus package at $50 something a month to get a channel that is given to them for FREE. DirecTv costs about the same. I think Dish is a little cheaper since they include it in their bottom of the line tier.

Long story short, I know at least 5 families (including mine) who would subscribe to a good catholic TiVoCast channel and even pay $5 a month extra for it. If I can email 12 families and get a 33% "yes" rate, there has to be a market for it. One guy even said that he does not have TiVo, but he would get a TiVo if it would let him download and record EWTN to his TV.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

hfwarner3 said:


> Who do you contact at TiVo to suggest other sources of content?


I'd send a letter to Tara Maitra, VP and GM of Content Services. She's at TiVo HQ:
2160 Gold Street
P.O. Box 2160
Alviso, CA 95002-2160


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Awesome! Thanks!


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ChuckyBox said:


> I'd send a letter to Tara Maitra, VP and GM of Content Services.


I was referred to her in email by another TiVo person and I sent her a couple of emails sith suggestions and offers of introduction to content providers, and I never heard back. :-(


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

hfwarner3 said:


> Who do you contact at TiVo to suggest other sources of content?


Don't you think the content the REGIME is supplying you is optimized for your own good?



megazone said:


> I was referred to her in email by another TiVo person and I sent her a couple of emails sith suggestions and offers of introduction to content providers, and I never heard back. :-(


There's a surprise.

Maybe she's stuck on hold with CBS while they are doing iTunes.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

davezatz said:


> The three last words of the press release excite me... I'm happy to see TiVo hasn't given up on PPV. I hope this service/demonstration is enough to sway some of the larger content providers to hop on board. I really really want movies on demand through my TiVo and I'm willing to pay.


If they do start offering pay-per-view I'd like to be able to transfer those around the house. Certainly not to the TiVo Desktop on a PC, but to other TiVo's in the house.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 12, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> If they do start offering pay-per-view I'd like to be able to transfer those around the house. Certainly not to the TiVo Desktop on a PC, but to other TiVo's in the house.


Does the "do not copy" flag apply to each TiVo or each Account?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

hfwarner3 said:


> Does the "do not copy" flag apply to each TiVo or each Account?


Seems to be each TiVo. You can't move Rocketboom from one TiVo to another via MRV, for instance.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Don't you think the content the REGIME is supplying you is optimized for your own good?


Now that was actually funny.


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## Alan Gordon (May 15, 2005)

hfwarner3 said:


> Who do you contact at TiVo to suggest other sources of content? TiVoPony?


Movie trailers would be a good content to add, as well as assorted clips from TVGuide (or assorted networks) showcasing programs airing that night would fit well.

I'd say news updates would be a great idea, but I'm afraid unless they made deals with several news outlets, people would be fussing over what TiVo's political leanings were (regardless of whether it was indicative of their deal or not)... A deal with The Weather Channel could work to for those in major metro areas (not so much for those of us in rural areas)

I'd think that TiVo could really do something with assorted clips available via subscription (that you could opt in/opt out via the GUI).

BTW, check out a first-look at the AT&T HomeZone on SatelliteGuys.us. It's interesting....

EXCLUSIVE: AT&T HomeZone First Look

~Alan


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

Alan Gordon said:


> Movie trailers would be a good content to add, as well as assorted clips from TVGuide (or assorted networks) showcasing programs airing that night would fit well.
> 
> ~Alan


We have this now as one of the product watch categories. 
Under product watch entertainment. You have choices of clips of 
DVD 
New Films 
TV 
ETC


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