# Lost "316" OAD 2/18/2009 Spoilers



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

They're back!


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## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

We're not going to Guam, are we?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

It was a meh episode.

So they are back in time to the Dharma days -- we knew this would happen b/c we saw Farraday working for Dharma already.

Not too many big reveals. Who was the person escorting Said? Another federal marshall perhaps?


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Biggest setup episode ever

in that I mean, ALL it did was setup.

You missed the episode? I'll sum it up for you
Everyone ends up on the plane, flash of light, bam back on island in Dharma days

Done and done


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## editivo (Jan 22, 2001)

My recording cut off just about where Jack jumped into the water to save hurley at the end. What happened after that?


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

What I thought was interesting was the fact that now Hurley is the musician, Sayid is the captive, and Kate is the free one. 

Oh...and the line, "Is he telling the truth?"..."Probably not"...that was great!


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> It was a meh episode.


To be sure, a meh Lost episode is still the best thing on TV.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It's surprising (in a pleasant way) to me that they got back to the island so fast. I figured they were going to draw it out a lot longer. "We're not going to Guam, are we."

Lost, Life, Law & Order, Life On Mars...it's an L of a night!

Ba dump bump.

Thank you, everybody. I'm here every night.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Why didn't they take a bunch of gear along with them? Food, rations, survival gear, etc. That would seem like the smart thing to do.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

editivo said:


> My recording cut off just about where Jack jumped into the water to save hurley at the end. What happened after that?


A shiny new Dharma van pulls up... driver gets out with a rifle, cocks it ready for battle when the survivors recognize it's.... JIN!! Looking nice and clean and in a dharma jump suit... A slight smile crosses his face... The end.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I like the fact that there was the sound and flash while they were on the plane.. It implies that the plane didn't crash, they just disappeared from the plane when they were within the sphere of influence of the island and it jumped.

I also like that not knowing this, Hurley bought lots of tickets.

I like that the pilot episode of the series will feel a bit different now, since Jack waking up in the jungle with Vincent is technically the second time chronologically that that happened.

Jack sure trusted that swimming hole was deep.

Why'd Hurley bring the guitar? Because Charlie had last time?

Another non-english Hurley comic book. 

Who told Hurley about the flight? Kate? Locke maybe? (that'd be if Locke saw Elloise before comitting suicide).

Ben kind of makes sense to go back too after Christian saying last week that Ben too wasn't supposed to leave.

&#37;#*^+!%ing Ben probably just tried to kill Penny. 

I like the idea that Sayid is being escorted by a marshal(sp?)

The island is ALWAYS moving...


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

MikeMar said:


> Biggest setup episode ever...in that I mean, ALL it did was setup.


I loved it because it got away from that pesky time travel non-sense... It struck me as good old fashioned Lost in that it opened more questions that it answered--which I loved. Although we did get a lot of explanation from Hawking in the beginning. I also love Lapedius' reaction as he realized one by one they were all on the plane.

The two biggest questions I had were:

- WTF HAPPENED TO AARON... I didn't see that coming. And I need to know.

- What happened to Ben when he went to tie up his "loose end". Obviously his plan was to take out Penny, but *did he*? Or did Desmond kick his ass and stop him, or what? I have a feeling that Widmore had guards staking out their boat just incase he showed up. I think whatever took place is gonna be bad ass. I don't think he killed either one of them though. Fans would riot.

Plus:

- Why is Sayid being led on the plane with a marshall? Was he really there by chance (fate?)... Or did he know to get on that plane?

- Did Charlie tell Hurley where to be? If not, how did he know. Actually how the hell did he get out of jail?

- Did Sayid, Sun, and Frank get sent to a different time?

- What has happened with the Islanders in the three years since they've been stuck in 1970's Dharmaville?

Perhaps the biggest question of all: Why do people still trust Ben? Hahah... at least Sayid had the sense to walk away, and Hurley wants nothing to do with him. Jack's just do-dee-do... not even a question about who beat the s*** out of him. It's a reasonable question!

The good thing about these seasons being planned out is that I have reason to expect that the questions will actually be answered at some point.


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## Ladd Morse (Feb 21, 2002)

I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard as when the pilot (Lapudis) said "Kate?, Sayid? Hurley? --- We're not going to Guam, are we?"


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

In the airport scenes, I kept expecting to see Ben working for the airline, wearing a white vest, either like the vision that Locke had in the smoke hut or the picture of Ben that the helicopter crew had (can't remember which).

In the crazy unfounded half-thought department, despite all of the facts we have in front of us about Ben's birth (seeing his birth, seeing his mother off the island, seeing a vision of her on the island later), I got the feeling that they were trying to plant the seed of an idea that somehow Kate was Ben's mother.. None of it works because we've clearly seen how he's born, and the writers have been extremely consistent so I don't think it's really intentional, but I pictured someone after watching this saying "Hey, maybe Aaron wasn't really Aaron.. Aaron is taught to read by Kate, she finds out he's actually Ben, she's shocked and horrified and insists that Jack never ask about it, (insert some crazy time theory about how Aaron/Ben goes back in time to grow up with his dad), Ben lives his life, turns the wheel, helps them all get back, and gets on the plane like he's supposed to". Again - I'm not buying it, but I got the feeling they were laying that red herring out there with the "my mother taught me" joke (as a 2nd meaning behind the joke, coupled with Kate's near shock-like state after leaving the dock w/Aaron).


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

So, they are in the church, Sun takes off, Desmond takes off, Ben takes off - how the heck did Jack get out of there? No car, van or pony.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

OK, Jeff, now slowly, back away from the drugs! 

But I think that may be a real problem with the show as it goes deeper and deeper into Answers territory. People are so used to questions that I think there's going to be a lot of over-thinking as people mistake answers for more questions.


betts4 said:


> So, they are in the church, Sun takes off, Desmond takes off, Ben takes off - how the heck did Jack get out of there? No car, van or pony.


There are a LOT of things that happened during this episode that we didn't see...enough that I just assume that somewhere down the line there will be another episode that takes place in the gaps of this one.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Just for my own knowledge, what do the people here believe is going on with the time traveling (I say "believe" because it's yet to be unequivocally confirmed on the show or by the producers EXACTLY what's going on).

The popular theory seems to be this "what's happening has ALWAYS happened"--Locke was "always" in 1954, Jin was "always" in 1988, etc... 
I personally hate this theory and I think it's a little stupid. That basically means that in 1988, teenage Jin was in Korea, and adult Jin was on the island (two Jins). There is no "original" timeline--everything just *exists* together. I can't get on board with this. In my head, there is a series of events. Jin crashes on island, THEN time travels, THEN meets Danielle. She can't remember him in 2004 because he hadn't time traveled yet. But this theory seems to suggest that he was "always" in 1988.

The way *I* interprested Faraday's rule that "you can't change the past" is that basically they're all skipping through time to different periods in the island history... They get to experience the time they're in, but once the island is corrected and they're back in 2007, everything will be as the left it. By "you can't change the past" I took it to mean that Jin can stab Danielle in the face while Sawyer sets off the Jughead bomb, but it wont matter--once everything is righted, none of that stuff will have happened, because it didn't happen originally.

Yes, there are problems with my theory. A: Locke tells Richard to find him when he's born and he does. So Locke *did* influence events in that way. I think Richard is an acception, like Desmond. The other issue is Charolttes sudden memory of Daniel telling her not to come to the island. I believe this is some how a memory insert but I can't figure out how just yet. Also, it's obvious that people can die in the past, which is another glitch but still believable to me.

Anyway, I'm aware that not many people agree with me and that's fine. But what I don't get is that people are going on about how wrong I am, but how does anyone know?? NO ONE really knows what's going on, so is any one theory worse then another?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, I like that 316 is kinda close to 815.. 3 and 8 look almost exactly the same, but they're different.. 15 and 16 are almost the same (and both are numbers), but they're different. The flight itself was extremely similar, but different.

I wasn't crazy about the whole religion angle, but I'm guessing that's just how the characters involved (Hawking and Ben) are perceiving things.. Robert seemed pretty brainwashed too when he talked about the temple.,

When they showed a board on the wall with 6 longitudes and latitudes (a board full of numbers), and Hawking started describing that they'd created a formula to determine where the island would be, I almost wondered if the writers wished they hadn't done that Valenzetti(sp?) equation thing in the Lost experience game but instead could have tied in the numbers somehow here instead.

That pendulum should be much, much taller..The one in the Museum of Science in Boston (dunno if it's still there) was several stories tall.

I'm glad Desmond didn't go along with Eloise's plan.

I loved Locke's note.

I wonder what clever fellow built the pendulum.. (it was someone off-island, so it leans away from being Daniel Faraday). That man had a team. Degroot?

The look on Desmond's face while listening to Eloise is priceless.. he's just barely tolerating listening to her speak.

"Willingly??"

"He said that only you could help him. He didn't say Jack, he didn't say Sun, he didn't say Ben.. he said YOU!"

Having only learned about the (only-slightly-interesting) Lost-is-a-Game theory from whomever posted it last week or the week before, I imagined that whoever the guy is that created that theory was jumping up and down in his seat when Desmond said to Jack "You listen to me brothah, and you listen carefully. These people - they're just using us.. They're playing some kinda game, and we are just the pieces.".. I imagine he'll have that video clip recorded within an hour or so of the episode having ended!


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jk, Desmond's reaction was about the most realistic reaction the show's ever done. Since everyone else seems willing to follow a bunch of lunatics on an INSANE plan to go back, it's refreshing that someone has the good sense to point out how ridiculous everything is. He's just like "you can't f***ing be serious" and then he leaves. Gotta love Des.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> jk, Desmond's reaction was about the most realistic reaction the show's ever done. Since everyone else seems willing to follow a bunch of lunatics on an INSANE plan to go back, it's refreshing that someone has the good sense to point out how ridiculous everything is. He's just like "you can't f***ing be serious" and then he leaves. Gotta love Des.


Of course, he can afford to be all skeptical and pissed off--he's not in the iron grip of destiny!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Just for my own knowledge, what do the people here believe is going on with the time traveling (I say "believe" because it's yet to be unequivocally confirmed on the show or by the producers EXACTLY what's going on).
> 
> The popular theory seems to be this "what's happening has ALWAYS happened"--Locke was "always" in 1954, Jin was "always" in 1988, etc...
> I personally hate this theory and I think it's a little stupid. That basically means that in 1988, teenage Jin was in Korea, and adult Jin was on the island (two Jins). There is no "original" timeline--everything just *exists* together. I can't get on board with this. In my head, there is a series of events. Jin crashes on island, THEN time travels, THEN meets Danielle. She can't remember him in 2004 because he hadn't time traveled yet. But this theory seems to suggest that he was "always" in 1988.
> ...


I'd say the easiest explanation for why people are so sure that you're wrong is that the theory that you can't get on board with is an incredibly elegant way of telling a story like this, feels like true art (because of the rules the writers impose on themselves to make everything consistent), and would be the best possible story.

For the writers to have planned things out in anticipation of a time travel story, laying hints for the future that they have to keep from explaining too early lest they use them up (like the little adam and eve bit), they're working on a work of art. Letting the story have things change, such that Locke was never in a wheelchair, makes the first season less valuable.. all of the scenes with Locke in a wheelchair would be practically meaningless now, since none of that really happened. It's a cheap writing stunt.

In what they've shown us, there is no "original" timeline - you're right. That also creates the interesting anomaly/question of where the compass came from, if indeed the compass that Richard gives Locke is the same one that Locke gave him.

Yes, Jin is in Korea in 1988 as a teenager, and on the island as an adult (two Jins). But we've already seen almost exactly that! Slightly-older Sawyer is watching the birth of Aaron/Ben (just kidding, Rob! I really don't believe that!).. anyway, Slightly-older Sawyer is watching the birth of Aaron, while younger Sawyer is elsewhere on the island (we can see exactly where by going back and watching that episode and seeing where he was around the time of the birth!). Want another example? Younger Locke is screaming into the glass on top of the hatch when the light comes on, and an older Locke sees that light and decides to go away from it. Two Lockes! It's already in the story.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, he can afford to be all skeptical and pissed off--he's not in the iron grip of destiny!


Not according to Eloise! The island isn't done with you yet, Desmond.

Well I'm done with the island!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> jk, Desmond's reaction was about the most realistic reaction the show's ever done. Since everyone else seems willing to follow a bunch of lunatics on an INSANE plan to go back, it's refreshing that someone has the good sense to point out how ridiculous everything is. He's just like "you can't f***ing be serious" and then he leaves. Gotta love Des.


Agreed!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Preview Spoiler


Spoiler



The running assumption is that just the islanders (O6+Ben+Lapiedus) were plucked from the plane via the flash of light. But the previews show Sayid's "captor" on the island. And they gave that one passenger too many lines, so you know he's going to be around



I'm wondering who, if anyone, might have been in the back half of the plane? Desmond following Ben for vengance? Mrs. Hawking because Desmond said she was needed by Faraday? Widmore's goons following the O6 to find the island again?

Did the swan keep the island from drifting? Thus, the food drops and The Others' travel to/form the island was made easier? Then again, Mrs. Hawking made it sound like the island was moving when the O6 were stranded there by saying "why do you think nobody ever found you".


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Slightly-older Sawyer is watching the birth of Aaron, while younger Sawyer is elsewhere on the island (we can see exactly where by going back and watching that episode and seeing where he was around the time of the birth!). Want another example? Younger Locke is screaming into the glass on top of the hatch when the light comes on, and an older Locke sees that light and decides to go away from it. Two Lockes! It's already in the story.


Right, I'm not saying they can't run into their prior selves, because it would make sense that they can. It's this idea that back in season when, when Claire was giving birth, Sawyer was "always" watching... Since Sawyer hadn't time traveled yet, this suggests a time loop/paradox situation, which I personally just can't stand (dating back to Terminator).



> For the writers to have planned things out in anticipation of a time travel story, laying hints for the future that they have to keep from explaining too early lest they use them up (like the little adam and eve bit), they're working on a work of art.


I semi-agree with this but do you really think that back in seasons one and two they were really plotting every one of these intricate details out? I think it's equally possible that when they sat down to arc out this season, they review events they've already visited/set up, and built the season around that so it would simply fit what they've already established. I highly doubt when they wrote the season one finale they specifically made sure Roussau and Jin didn't speak so that they could use that later. They're just mirroring stuff after what's already been done. Not everything, mind you, but definitely a good chunk.

The compass can easily be solved by there being two compasses. Now, if adam and eve end up being anyone we've seen on the show I think it will SCREAM paradox--how can you come across your own skeletons, fifty years after your death, when you haven't even time traveled yet?


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Why'd Hurley bring the guitar? Because Charlie had last time?


My bet is that guitar is somehow connected to Charlie. Just like they had to bring Locke and something from Christian Shephard. Or second guess is Hurley filled it with food.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jdfs said:


> My bet is that guitar is somehow connected to Charlie. Just like they had to bring Locke and something from Christian Shephard. Or second guess is Hurley filled it with food.


I'm guessing Charlie is the mystery person who told Hurley about the plane, and he probably told him to bring the guitar> Who the hell knows why.

Or, it just be filled food...


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So I know it's gotta be a common statue, but it looked like Eloise had a HUUUGE stash of heroine in her office. 

Laughed out loud when Jack was putting the shoes on Locke and he said that wherever he was, Locke was probably laughing his ass off that Jack was going through with this.

Ben said he made a promise to an old friend of his (presumably the promise to Widmore that he'd kill his daughter Penny). Not an old enemy, and old friend. Maybe Widmore stays around on the island with the others long enough to be around during the purge? He had to meet Ben somehow.. But this is the first time I remember hearing friend. Unless, of course, Ben is talking about someone else, and some other favor. 

Was Jack at the bar to try to closely mimic the circumstances of the initial flight? Was that blond woman at the bar kind of like Annalucia? (I take it back, that was before he went to see his granddad.. probably wasn't the airport bar.. but he's still drinking, I notice..)

The rabbit in the magic act didn't have a number on it, but its eyes were friggin scary.

Jack's granddad's actor.. I can't place him.

Before we saw the shoes, I wondered if Jack would give Locke the watch (if he still had it) from the mobisode, but in retrospect that was crazy (who'd keep a watch on the island that whole time?). Maybe someday we'll see a flash-sideways where Christian is talking to Eloise and says "oh, and by the way, can you have Jack send my real shoes along with the next guy? These tennis shoes suck! Can't an afterlife apparition have a good pair of apparition shoes?"


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Great episode. Nothing earth shaking (besides Jin), but its setting stuff up. And until I read this thread, I forgot that Ben's mother died in childbirth, and he didn't have a mother to teach him to read.

And what happened to Aaron? Did he get too old?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I noticed the Doubting Thomas painting right away. Ties in very nicely with what was going on in this episode.

And going with the biblical allusions, 316 makes me think of John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Very interesting that it is a passage about faith, life and death, and sacrifice. And the John connection.

So, being a football fan but not a biblical scholar, I had to look up John 8:15. It is: "You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one." Does that connect to the show? Maybe, but not as obviously.

(As an aside, Henry Ian Cusick played Jesus in the movie, The Gospel of John.)


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

It cracks me up that they're back on the island!!! and so many around here are "meh."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I semi-agree with this but do you really think that back in seasons one and two they were really plotting every one of these intricate details out? I think it's equally possible that when they sat down to arc out this season, they review events they've already visited/set up, and built the season around that so it would simply fit what they've already established. I highly doubt when they wrote the season one finale they specifically made sure Roussau and Jin didn't speak so that they could use that later. They're just mirroring stuff after what's already been done. Not everything, mind you, but definitely a good chunk.


The writers have sworn up and down that they don't introduce an element to the story unless they know where/how it'll end up, and what it's endgame is..

They clearly didn't know every little detail of what would happen in season 5 back in season 1.. but I'll bet serious money that they knew back then that it was a time-travel season, and they placed things in the story as proof that they'd been planning that from the beginning, instead of just making **** up as they go along season to season like Battlestar Galactica or Heroes.

They might not have specifically had Danielle not encounter Jin (I wish they had), but it REALLY feels that the scene where Sayid tries to shoot Danielle in season 1 (where the gun clicks, she mentions that the firing pin has been removed, and that Robert hadn't noticed either, when she killed him) was something they expected to show us. The coolest part was that since so many seasons had passed, I'd forgotten that Sayid even tried to shoot her, so I was actually able to be surprised when we saw it even though I'd previously been told what would happen.



mrdazzo7 said:


> Now, if adam and eve end up being anyone we've seen on the show I think it will SCREAM paradox--how can you come across your own skeletons, fifty years after your death, when you haven't even time traveled yet?


Dude, all you're missing is that we as observers are late to the party.. the time travel already happened.. Let's assume for a second that you were right, that there was a bootstrap first-time-through. Ok.. So in that first bootstrap time through there was no adam and eve, and Jack and Kate were just in a cave admiring how clean it was instead of the two corpses there. So now in that scenario of yours, once Jack and Kate go back in time and crawl to the cave to die, they die, and their bodies stay there. Now in this second timeline, there'd be skeletons for Jack and Kate in 1994 to find. It'd be the same thing! You're just watching the most recent iteration (in your bootstrap world).

Except it's better than there being one timeline that just had one bootstrap. That's an idea that works when there's one timer traveler in the story.. but we have a whole bunch of them..

They see the skeletons because the skeletons were put in the past via time travel. It's the PAST.. That's time travel - changing the PAST.. They can encounter their skeletons before having gone back in time because THEY WILL go back in time, and proof that they actually WILL go back (and not chicken out or change their minds) is the two skeletons in front of them!

It'd only be a paradox if something *inconsistent* happened.. Like if Jack and Kate looked at the skeletons, saw Jack's tattoo on the arm, Jack said "screw this.. I don't wanna jump through time and end up here", and immediately killed himself right there and then. That'd be a paradox because how could the skeleton exist, if Jack never went back to be there?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

jdfs said:


> My bet is that guitar is somehow connected to Charlie. Just like they had to bring Locke and something from Christian Shephard. Or second guess is Hurley filled it with food.


That's an excellent theory.



mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm guessing Charlie is the mystery person who told Hurley about the plane, and he probably told him to bring the guitar> Who the hell knows why.
> 
> Or, it just be filled food...


That's a stupid theory.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Regarding time travel, I thought Daniel was quite clear. You can't change the past, no matter how hard you try. Sawyer was always watching Aaron's birth: you just didn't notice him the first time around. Ana Lucia always gets killed. If they jumped back to moments before it happened, it will still happen just as it always did. Your destiny is already written. Its probably how they new that Jack wasn't done with the island, or that Desmond isn't.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I think this is the first episode this season to open with a shot of one open eye. Is that right?

Oh, and at first I thought it was dumb that Jack was wearing a suit to go back on the island. But that got explained.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So who's the "my condolences" guy? He talks to Jack and we see him on the plane..

Maybe a reincarnation of Charlie?

The comic Hurley is reading is The Last Man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_The_Last_Man


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> So I know it's gotta be a common statue, but it looked like Eloise had a HUUUGE stash of heroine in her office.
> 
> Laughed out loud when Jack was putting the shoes on Locke and he said that wherever he was, Locke was probably laughing his ass off that Jack was going through with this.
> 
> Before we saw the shoes, I wondered if Jack would give Locke the watch (if he still had it) from the mobisode, but in retrospect that was crazy (who'd keep a watch on the island that whole time?). Maybe someday we'll see a flash-sideways where Christian is talking to Eloise and says "oh, and by the way, can you have Jack send my real shoes along with the next guy? These tennis shoes suck! Can't an afterlife apparition have a good pair of apparition shoes?"


The "laughing your ass off line" to Locke was fantastic. And didn't someone in last week's thread wonder why Christian was seen in S1 in white tennis shoes?



Philosofy said:


> Regarding time travel, I thought Daniel was quite clear. You can't change the past, no matter how hard you try. Sawyer was always watching Aaron's birth: you just didn't notice him the first time around. Ana Lucia always gets killed. If they jumped back to moments before it happened, it will still happen just as it always did. Your destiny is already written. Its probably how they new that Jack wasn't done with the island, or that Desmond isn't.


I would put it this way: mrdazzo7, meet Daniel Farraday; Daniel Farraday, meet mrdazzo7.  Ben's Doubting Thomas line works well for this: "He just couldn't get his mind around it." Just relax dude, it will all begin to make sense.

Where did Aaron go? My first thought was to Claire's mother. And watch, ironically, her and Aaron will wind up being on Flight 316.

I enjoyed the episode. Sure, it was a lot of setup but it still managed to pose questions. Why was there a US Army picture from 1954 on Hawking's board? The bomb clearly hasn't just been buried and forgotten then. What happened to Ben? Sayid, and why was he being escorted out of the country? The guitar case. Aaron. Who built the Lamp Post, and the pendulum, and who came up with the calculations? Why was Hawking completely unsurprised to see Desmond and hear his story about Farraday?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DAMN YOU JKEGAN FOR HAVING THE SAME BRAIN AS ME!!!

Now I can't respond to anything. You already have.



jkeegan said:


> Jack's granddad's actor.. I can't place him.


Same here, he's been around forever, too. I'm sure by morning we'll all know his entire resume.

I don't see where this was a meh episode. It was setup, yes, but it was also drama. That's not a bad thing.

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

betts4 said:


> So, they are in the church, Sun takes off, Desmond takes off, Ben takes off - how the heck did Jack get out of there? No car, van or pony.


Why do we need to see how he got out of the church? Mrs. Hawking said they had 36 hours to get to the airport. We only saw a small fraction of what Jack did during that time.

So at the beginning of S4 (I think), when we first saw Frank Lapidus, wasn't he watching video of the fake crash of Flight 815 and he called the airline and said that couldn't be the real crash, because he was piloting Flight 815? Now we see him piloting Flight 316. Not sure how that will play out, but it's interesting.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> DAMN YOU JKEGAN FOR HAVING THE SAME BRAIN AS ME!!!
> 
> Now I can't respond to anything. You already have.
> 
> Greg


I really don't think you want to admit to that.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

gchance said:


> Same here, he's been around forever, too. I'm sure by morning we'll all know his entire resume.


The only thing I can place him in is "Born on the Fourth of July" -- I think he played Tom Cruise's character's father in that one. He's one of those character actors that turns up everywhere, though. Raymond Barry/Berry, I think.



DevdogAZ said:


> So at the beginning of S4 (I think), when we first saw Frank Lapidus, wasn't he watching video of the fake crash of Flight 815 and he called the airline and said that couldn't be the real crash, because he was piloting Flight 815? Now we see him piloting Flight 316. Not sure how that will play out, but it's interesting.


Hopefully, things turn out better for Frank than they did for the last pilot.


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## FlugPoP (Jan 7, 2004)

What Jack and Kate said to each other in the beginning was totally different dialogue at the end. Maybe someone can quote it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

mrdazzo7 said:


> A shiny new Dharma van pulls up... driver gets out with a rifle, cocks it ready for battle when the survivors recognize it's.... JIN!! Looking nice and clean and in a dharma jump suit... A slight smile crosses his face... The end.


You forgot his Beatles inspired hairdo.



jkeegan said:


> Jack sure trusted that swimming hole was deep.


My first thought when I saw Jack dive into the water was that considering that Jack had no idea how deep the water was, he took quite a leap of faith.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I think that may be a real problem with the show as it goes deeper and deeper into Answers territory. People are so used to questions that I think there's going to be a lot of over-thinking as people mistake answers for more questions.
> 
> There are a LOT of things that happened during this episode that we didn't see...enough that I just assume that somewhere down the line there will be another episode that takes place in the gaps of this one.


I'd like to know what cause Hurley, Sayid, and Kate to change their minds.
And what happened to Aaron.
(And how soon will Kate dump Jack for Sawyer.)


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> jk, Desmond's reaction was about the most realistic reaction the show's ever done. Since everyone else seems willing to follow a bunch of lunatics on an INSANE plan to go back, it's refreshing that someone has the good sense to point out how ridiculous everything is. He's just like "you can't f***ing be serious" and then he leaves. Gotta love Des.


While I agree with that, I think they have gone to some lengths to make it plausible that everybody wants/needs to get back to the island.

Kate just lost Aaron, she has nothing else in the outside world. All she has is Jack/Sawyer
Sun is going back for Jin
Hurley's got nothing else to do. He keeps on ending up in mental institutions. Maybe "Charlie" did convince him to go
Sayid seems like he has no choice 
Jack has a lot of reasons

Desmond doesn't know his reasons yet, but he probably will.

-smak-

So yah, I think they made i


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> The popular theory seems to be this "what's happening has ALWAYS happened"--Locke was "always" in 1954, Jin was "always" in 1988, etc...
> I personally hate this theory and I think it's a little stupid. That basically means that in 1988, teenage Jin was in Korea, and adult Jin was on the island (two Jins). There is no "original" timeline--everything just *exists* together. I can't get on board with this. In my head, there is a series of events. Jin crashes on island, THEN time travels, THEN meets Danielle. She can't remember him in 2004 because he hadn't time traveled yet. But this theory seems to suggest that he was "always" in 1988.


"Time travel" = multiverses.
All the various 'verses exist simultaneously, and when a paradox occurs another multiverse veers off.

*It's not about getting back to the right "time" exactly- they want/need to get back to the right 'verse.*


IMO this is the best time travel theory going.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Great episode. Nothing earth shaking (besides Jin), but its setting stuff up. And until I read this thread, I forgot that Ben's mother died in childbirth, and he didn't have a mother to teach him to read.


Why do you think that just because his mother died in childbirth, she didn't teach him to read?

This is Lost, man! I can think of three entirely different ways she could do it! (Ghost, time travel, video tapes)


----------



## jeepair (Apr 22, 2004)

Jack knew how deep that water was because he's probably been swimming there many times.

Did they ever explain how the sub was able to go to the island and back to civilization at will? Why didn't Ben just get a new sub and take everyone there. I'm sure since the island is always moving, they had a way to get back.

Did anyone ever explain the air drops of food and stuff?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> So at the beginning of S4 (I think), when we first saw Frank Lapidus, wasn't he watching video of the fake crash of Flight 815 and he called the airline and said that couldn't be the real crash, because he was piloting Flight 815? Now we see him piloting Flight 316. Not sure how that will play out, but it's interesting.


Lapidus was the originally scheduled pilot for Flight 815, but for some reason (that hasn't been explained yet) he was replaced by whats-his-name.


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Jack sure trusted that swimming hole was deep.


It looked like the same place where Kate and Sawyer went swimming and found the plane crash victims deep in the water still strapped to their plane seats. I think there's been a couple other scenes filmed there, too. I assume that Jack recognized where he was and already knew how deep the water was.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Jack's granddad looks younger than Jack's dad.

I kept waiting for somebody to knock that big pendulum from its pattern.

I got a happy when I saw Ben's face all jacked up.

I'm enjoying this show even though I don't know what's going on, unlike BSG.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> So I know it's gotta be a common statue, but it looked like Eloise had a HUUUGE stash of heroine in her office.


Heh. I noticed that right away. It was so prominently displayed in the foreground with a light on it that I noticed it while fast-forwarding through the commercials.

The other thing I noticed right away was Frank Lapidus's voice. I don't know how many words he got out before I identified him, but not much more than a couple. I loved that whole scene. He didn't struggle with disorientation or confusion for long. And he didn't waste time with anger or panic or with any other strong emotion. Just an annoyed acceptance. "We're not going to Guam, are we?" Hilarious.


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> And what happened to Aaron? Did he get too old?


He will appear to Locke as "Taller Aaron"


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Jack's just do-dee-do... not even a question about who beat the s*** out of [Ben]. It's a reasonable question!


He also dropped his inquiry into Aaron a little too quick. "Gee Kate, you look like you just lost the thing you love most in all the world, but hey, who am I to hassle you?" But, that's a long-time Lost annoyance. It's like an Alex Rodriguez press conference--no follow up questions allowed.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

#1 - Someone said that there are time travel paradoxes on this show. The whole "you can't change the past, it always happened that way" is the ONLY way they could do time travel WITHOUT paradoxes. Part of knowing that this always happened was the fact that Faraday told them to bury the nuke in cement and it was buried in cement in the hatch.

# 2 - The comic was Y The Last Man, as Keegan pointed out. It's an absolutely fantastic comic written by one of the show's best writers (who joined in season 4, I believe) Brian K. Vaughan.

# 3 - Not only was "We're not going to Guam - are we?" the funniest line ever, but it was made 100 times better by the fact that Frank was absolutely okay with it.

# 4 - Keegan, your insanity continues to amuse me to no end. Only my boss comes to more ridiculous conclusions than you! Keep it up!!! 

# 5 - From Ain't It Cool's summary of this episode: "Does Christian Shephard&#8217;s association with the island predate his death? &#8220;Ray&#8221; is Jack Shephard&#8217;s grandpapa." Are we supposed to remember a Ray? From 1954?


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

So Christian's body was on flight 815 and when the plane crashed he came back as a ghost.

Locke's body was on 316. Might we see more of Locke?


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

I forgot one thing: How about those airplane graphics? Looks like they used Microsoft FlightSim for all the plane shots.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> He also dropped his inquiry into Aaron a little too quick. "Gee Kate, you look like you just lost the thing you love most in all the world, but hey, who am I to hassle you?" But, that's a long-time Lost annoyance. It's like an Alex Rodriguez press conference--no follow up questions allowed.


Well, that one actually made sense--I could tell Jack was torn between wanting to know what happened to Aaron and wanting Kate to go with him back to the island. And I'm not surprised the latter won out...for the moment. Now that he's got her there, I suspect the deal is gonna be off.


----------



## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> Again - I'm not buying it, but I got the feeling they were laying that red herring out there with the "my mother taught me" joke (as a 2nd meaning behind the joke, coupled with Kate's near shock-like state after leaving the dock w/Aaron).


My take on that was that even when asked a simple question where there was no need to cover anything up, Ben still couldn't be 100% truthful. It goes towards his character. The audience realizes that, but of course the characters don't.

I think Ben is pure evil. I could eat my words by the end of the series, but I really think that Ben and Widmore are both evil, but they have different reasons for being evil.
=============

I like the idea that the plane was set up just like the first one, except the characters this time had different roles. I am not buying that they are stuck in the 1970's though...that might explain a few things, but that's going to be weird to me.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I don't think Ben is pure evil. I think he's an ends justifies the means kind of guy and he'll do bad things to justify good ends. But everything he does is not completely self-less and I'm sure he wants to end up happy and healthy no matter the cost to other people.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> So Christian's body was on flight 815 and when the plane crashed he came back as a ghost.
> 
> Locke's body was on 316. Might we see more of Locke?


I'm just about certian we will.

I don't know any spoilers regarding this, it just seems very logical.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> ...
> In the crazy unfounded half-thought department, despite all of the facts we have in front of us about Ben's birth (seeing his birth, seeing his mother off the island, seeing a vision of her on the island later), I got the feeling that they were trying to plant the seed of an idea that somehow Kate was Ben's mother.. None of it works because we've clearly seen how he's born, and the writers have been extremely consistent so I don't think it's really intentional, but I pictured someone after watching this saying "Hey, maybe Aaron wasn't really Aaron.. Aaron is taught to read by Kate, she finds out he's actually Ben, she's shocked and horrified and insists that Jack never ask about it, (insert some crazy time theory about how Aaron/Ben goes back in time to grow up with his dad), Ben lives his life, turns the wheel, helps them all get back, and gets on the plane like he's supposed to". Again - I'm not buying it, but I got the feeling they were laying that red herring out there with the "my mother taught me" joke (as a 2nd meaning behind the joke, coupled with Kate's near shock-like state after leaving the dock w/Aaron).


While I had nothing like this in mind, I did wonder whether the writers intended _something_ more than just a joke with that line. Perhaps just reminding us that Ben is a liar? Of course, it could have been *just* a joke. I'm trying to recall if anyone (excluding people such as Richard Alpert, and other Others) knows about Ben's origins. Did Jack ever learn that Ben was lying when he said that he was born on the island?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Unseen Llama said:


> Oh...and the line, "Is he telling the truth?"..."Probably not"...that was great!


Best lines of the episode. LOL! 



HIHZia said:


> We're not going to Guam, are we?


Close second best. :up:


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> I'm just about certian we will [see more of Locke].
> 
> I don't know any spoilers regarding this, it just seems very logical.


Well sure, we'll see him, and I'm sure it won't just be in the coffin. The question is how? Only in flashbacks to before he died? (meaning "before" in the usual sense, ignoring the time flashes) Or will we see him post-death, like Ana-Lucia, Charlie, et. al.?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> I wasn't crazy about the whole religion angle, but I'm guessing that's just how the characters involved (Hawking and Ben) are perceiving things.. Robert seemed pretty brainwashed too when he talked about the temple.,


The religion thing has been there from the beginning. They mix and match myths and religious ideas without any loyalty to any particular one. Though, I think that in the world of this story, they are all true in some mystical, though not quite literal sense that is not clear. If you've listened to or read interviews of Lindelof and Cuse talking about writing and storytelling, you've probably heard them mention Joseph Campbell (an atheist, btw. or maybe agnostic.), who wrote much on comparative mythology and comparative religion. There are books and seminars that try to use Campbell's theories as writing tools, though that wasn't the purpose of his work. George Lucas was big on him and helped popularize him amongst writers of Lindelof's age, and Lindelof is big on Lucas.

Incidently, Campbell was strongly influenced by James Joyce, who wrote Ulysses, which Ben was reading on tonight's episode.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I wonder what to make of Kate being the only one who was trying to appear inconspicuous at the airport and on the plane. Hurley was quite the opposite - "I'm Hugo Reyes, I bought all the tickets." I doubt that it's insignificant, and won't be surprised to find out that it has something to do with whatever happened to Aaron.

I'm still wondering what happened to what Ben said about "Whoever moves the island can never go back." Granted, we still don't know that he was actually going back. But at this point it appears that he's on his way. But if it turns out that he just stayed on the plane, how will Jack and the rest know that? Will they just continue looking for him on the island, assuming that he was just scattered a little farther away than the rest of them?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Well sure, we'll see him, and I'm sure it won't just be in the coffin. The question is how? Only in flashbacks to before he died? (meaning "before" in the usual sense, ignoring the time flashes) Or will we see him post-death, like Ana-Lucia, Charlie, et. al.?


We'll see him the same way we've seen Christian Shephard, I'd guess, since they're both "conduits" to the island.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

FlugPoP said:


> What Jack and Kate said to each other in the beginning was totally different dialogue at the end. Maybe someone can quote it.


I noticed that too but I think they also skipped through the scene a little, like when Jack was rushing to find Hurley. I meant to go back and re-watch, but I was thinking that they just skipped a line or two as opposed to it being totally different. I remember Jack saying something like "Kate can you hear me?" the first time, but not the second.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Decent episode with a killer ending. I think the plane still crashed, but not until after Jack, Hurley, Kate, etc. time traveled. Which leaves us to wonder why they time traveled. Does the island want them to be in the same time frame as Sawyer and company? When Sawyer's group time travels, they take objects that they are using with them. Why didn't the plane time travel with the Oceanic 6? I ask this because I still think that plane is the one Sawyer and company stumbled upon before taking the boat to the Orchid Station.



jkeegan said:


> Ben said he made a promise to an old friend of his (presumably the promise to Widmore that he'd kill his daughter Penny). Not an old enemy, and old friend. Maybe Widmore stays around on the island with the others long enough to be around during the purge? He had to meet Ben somehow.. But this is the first time I remember hearing friend. Unless, of course, Ben is talking about someone else, and some other favor.


Good thought. Ben's bloodied state might not bode very well for Penny.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why do you think that just because his mother died in childbirth, she didn't teach him to read?
> 
> This is Lost, man! I can think of three entirely different ways she could do it! (Ghost, time travel, video tapes)


Another Lost mystery solved: Ben is hooked on phonics.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, he can afford to be all skeptical and pissed off--he's not in the iron grip of destiny!


Sure he is. The Island _isn't done with him yet_.

Edit: I smeeked. Whatever happens has happened before and will happen again. What, wrong show?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Right, I'm not saying they can't run into their prior selves, because it would make sense that they can. It's this idea that back in season when, when Claire was giving birth, Sawyer was "always" watching... Since Sawyer hadn't time traveled yet, this suggests a time loop/paradox situation, which I personally just can't stand (dating back to Terminator).
> 
> I semi-agree with this but do you really think that back in seasons one and two they were really plotting every one of these intricate details out? I think it's equally possible that when they sat down to arc out this season, they review events they've already visited/set up, and built the season around that so it would simply fit what they've already established. I highly doubt when they wrote the season one finale they specifically made sure Roussau and Jin didn't speak so that they could use that later. They're just mirroring stuff after what's already been done. Not everything, mind you, but definitely a good chunk.
> 
> The compass can easily be solved by there being two compasses. Now, if adam and eve end up being anyone we've seen on the show I think it will SCREAM paradox--how can you come across your own skeletons, fifty years after your death, when you haven't even time traveled yet?


You are trying to think of time in a linear sense. That's only our perception. In reality time is like a street .... In one sense it's linear -- it has a beginning, a middle and an end, and all the poitns in between. But all of those points exist (I wanted to say "exist at the same time" but that would be kind of wrong).


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting tid-bit. The actor who played the guy behind Jack saying he was sorry about him losing his friend -- his name is Said Taghmaoui.

Now, who was the guy who played Jack's grandpa? He reminded me so much of B.J. (M*A*S*H) that I couldn't think of anyone else. But my wife swears it wasn't him.

Edit: My wife was the better half. That was Raymond J. Barry. I probably remember him from X-Files (Senator Matheson, who fed info to Fox a few times).


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I loved it because it got away from that pesky time travel non-sense... It struck me as good old fashioned Lost in that it opened more questions that it answered--which I loved. Although we did get a lot of explanation from Hawking in the beginning. I also love Lapedius' reaction as he realized one by one they were all on the plane.
> 
> The two biggest questions I had were:
> 
> ...


Sayid killed people all over the world for Ben. It's possible he shot someone in Guam, and Ben tipped off the authorities, so he was being extradited to Guam.

Ben's lawyer sprung Hurley out. The rest is unnecessary detail.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Philosofy said:


> Great episode. Nothing earth shaking (besides Jin), but its setting stuff up. And until I read this thread, I forgot that Ben's mother died in childbirth, and he didn't have a mother to teach him to read.
> 
> And what happened to Aaron? Did he get too old?


Bu Ben was _raised by an Other_.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> So who's the "my condolences" guy? He talks to Jack and we see him on the plane..


I got very distracted on where I've seen him before, whether it was on the show or elsewhere, and it turns out he was in Vantage Point with Matthew Fox.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

3D said:


> When Sawyer's group time travels, they take objects that they are using with them. Why didn't the plane time travel with the Oceanic 6? I ask this because I still think that plane is the one Sawyer and company stumbled upon before taking the boat to the Orchid Station.


I think it's very clear that's the case.



scottykempf said:


> Why didn't they take a bunch of gear along with them? Food, rations, survival gear, etc. That would seem like the smart thing to do.


They were able to bring water bottles from the plane


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

JYoung said:


> You forgot his Beatles inspired hairdo.


For a second, because of the hair, I thought it was going to be Ben's dad, but why would he have a gun,.. so i thought it was an awesome reveal.

The screencap shows his dharma logo covered, but it almost looks like a star... looks like Jin in the new sheriff.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> I think it's very clear that's the case.


Which brings me back to my original question? Why? Why didn't the plane time travel with Jack and company?


----------



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I had this thought and it might've been mentioned, but what if you need to die and come back to the island to be a person who controls the island. We don't know about the real Jacob, but Christian dies and is brought to the island and assumed a leadership position (was he chosen when he was on the island in the past and became a drunk because, like his son, he also couldn't figure out how to get back??). What if, to ascend to the top dog position, Locke had to die and then be brought back to the island to be able to be the TRUE leader. Now does Locke replace Jacob on the island as the head honcho?


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

JYoung said:


> You forgot his Beatles inspired hairdo.





Cindy1230 said:


> The screencap ...


What "Beatles inspired hairdo"? His hair looks nothing like any hairdo the Beatles ever had.


----------



## FlugPoP (Jan 7, 2004)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Lapidus was the originally scheduled pilot for Flight 815, but for some reason (that hasn't been explained yet) he was replaced by whats-his-name.


If that's the case that's probably why he got killed. People that aren't wanted/supposed to be there get killed by smokey... ?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

If everyone they could possibly get from the first flight had to be on the second flight, why didn't anyone try to go get Walt? Does nobody know he's in New York?

There was way too much over-convenient "ask a question and get a pithy non-answer answer and not follow up for the real answer" dialogue for my taste in this episode. I just wanted someone to say "no, seriously" and then ask the question again.
Jack: How did you know to get here?
Hurley: All that matters is I'm here, right.
Jack: Right. But seriously, how the hell did you know to get here?

It would really suck if Sun is in a different time than Jin after all this. Speaking of them, what about their baby? She just leaves the baby for Jin without really giving it a second thought?

I thought Desmond took a little too long to communicate to the rest of the folks that he recognized Mrs. Hawking, and didn't tell them enough about what she made him do.

Jack and Kate are boarding a flight back to the island. They don't eat breakfast? Just coffee and juice?

If I worked for an airline, I think I'd recognize the Oceanic Six if, three years after they came home, five of them were on the same flight with me. Especially if I heard their names. Kind of odd for Kate to pretend she doesn't know Jack (so to speak).

And, what's with Kate? "We're all here. Doesn't mean we're together." What? Why'd she come back, then?


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I loved that Ben was reading Ulysses. All about a man trying to find his way home...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I also like that not knowing this, Hurley bought lots of tickets.


That was great. Perfectly in character and I didn't predict it. But that's Hurley. Do everything you can with your fortune to try to protect people. I'm not sure why the gate agent tried to call people off the standby list though... if the tickets are purchased the system wouldn't show empty seats...



mrdazzo7 said:


> - WTF HAPPENED TO AARON... I didn't see that coming. And I need to know.
> 
> - Did Charlie tell Hurley where to be? If not, how did he know. Actually how the hell did he get out of jail?


I really don't get a patootie about Aaron. Interesting. I'm fine if he just remains in the real world and isn't talked about much.

And yes, Charlie's spirit/ghost is the only thing that would get Hurley back on that plane. Has to be.



mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm guessing Charlie is the mystery person who told Hurley about the plane, and he probably told him to bring the guitar> Who the hell knows why.


Yup. The way Hurley was clutching the guitar in the water (I doubt it would float him) I think it's important in upcoming episodes.



jeepair said:


> Jack knew how deep that water was because he's probably been swimming there many times.


Maybe. But when someone you care about or need is drowning, you jump in.



wprager said:


> Sayid killed people all over the world for Ben. It's possible he shot someone in Guam, and Ben tipped off the authorities, so he was being extradited to Guam.


I'll buy that. I was puzzled why Sayid would be in a Marshall's care on a flight to Guam. Made zero sense to me. But perhaps them showing Sayid killing people in other countries allows this to be plausible.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

crowfan said:


> I loved that Ben was reading Ulysses. All about a man trying to find his way home...


Yes, I appreciate the high brow stuff dealing with literature, the bible, etc. I'm glad they don't dumb it down all the time.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I'm not sure why the gate agent tried to call people off the standby list though... if the tickets are purchased the system wouldn't show empty seats...


Not to mention that for a flight that had so many people trying to get on via standby, it's surprising that Hurley was able to buy all of those tickets at the last minute (he presumably didn't even know he needed to be on that plane until, at the most, hours earlier). That's it, this show is unrealistic. I'm done!


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

3D said:


> I ask this because I still think that plane is the one Sawyer and company stumbled upon before taking the boat to the Orchid Station.


I think you are onto something here. Does anyone have a screen cap of the water bottles they picked up before getting into the canoe?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why do you think that just because his mother died in childbirth, she didn't teach him to read?
> 
> This is Lost, man! I can think of three entirely different ways she could do it! (Ghost, time travel, video tapes)


Fourth way...adoptive parent, or mother figure.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I noticed the Doubting Thomas painting right away. Ties in very nicely with what was going on in this episode.
> 
> And going with the biblical allusions, 316 makes me think of John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."


For Jacob/Christian so loved the island that he gave his one and only son, Jack...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> I wonder what clever fellow built the pendulum.. (it was someone off-island, so it leans away from being Daniel Faraday). That man had a team. Degroot?


That's the big question I came away with... Alpert? Jack's dad? Jack's granddad? Widmore? Vincent?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

aindik said:


> It would really suck if Sun is in a different time than Jin after all this. Speaking of them, what about their baby? She just leaves the baby for Jin without really giving it a second thought?


Yeah, that was odd. I know she wants to see Jin, but she can't be expecting to be returning from the island anytime soon. Tough call, but I guess she chose Jin.



mostman said:


> I think you are onto something here. Does anyone have a screen cap of the water bottles they picked up before getting into the canoe?


Didn't they beat us over the head with this? Ajira Air water bottles, they took Ajira Air, etc... Yes, I think there is plenty of evidence showing that Sawyer and crew stumbled across the wreckage from the flight the O6 took.


----------



## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

mostman said:


> I think you are onto something here. Does anyone have a screen cap of the water bottles they picked up before getting into the canoe?


That's already been confirmed in a previous LOST thread. They were Ajira Air water bottles. It's how some of us knew to go to the AjiraAir website and already knew about the Lighthouse/*Lamppost* station.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

3D said:


> Not to mention that for a flight that had so many people trying to get on via standby, it's surprising that Hurley was able to buy all of those tickets at the last minute (he presumably didn't even know he needed to be on that plane until, at the most, hours earlier). That's it, this show is unrealistic. I'm done!


Well, he actually tried to buy 108 tickets but some were already reserved


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Jack sure trusted that swimming hole was deep.





Jeeters said:


> It looked like the same place where Kate and Sawyer went swimming and found the plane crash victims deep in the water still strapped to their plane seats. I think there's been a couple other scenes filmed there, too. I assume that Jack recognized where he was and already knew how deep the water was.


I thought the same thing when he dove -- how deep is that water. And then later when he told Hurley he could stand it looked like they were near where Jack dove in.



jkeegan said:


> I like the fact that there was the sound and flash while they were on the plane.. It implies that the plane didn't crash, they just disappeared from the plane when they were within the sphere of influence of the island and it jumped.
> 
> I also like that not knowing this, Hurley bought lots of tickets.


But they might not have a pilot anymore. So it might still be a good thing Hurley bought the tickets.



jkeegan said:


> So who's the "my condolences" guy? He talks to Jack and we see him on the plane..
> 
> Maybe a reincarnation of Charlie?





wprager said:


> Interesting tid-bit.  The actor who played the guy behind Jack saying he was sorry about him losing his friend -- his name is Said Taghmaoui.


When he spoke to Jack, I noticed his accent. I thought he might be taking Sayid's place on the plane.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

3D said:


> Not to mention that for a flight that had so many people trying to get on via standby, it's surprising that Hurley was able to buy all of those tickets at the last minute (he presumably didn't even know he needed to be on that plane until, at the most, hours earlier). That's it, this show is unrealistic. I'm done!


Actually... Even sold seats are given up at the end for stand-bys. They were about to board the plane. You have 30mins-60mins (for international) to check in for your flight. If those seats aren't taken, they are generally made available for stand-bys and upgrades.

So that was completely reasonable.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

With Jack's grandfather being played by a fairly well-established character actor, I can't shake the thought that we'll see him again. Plus, they used the same line about getting away from where they were. Wasn't it something along the lines of "a better place than this"? Meh, could be nothing.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> So Christian's body was on flight 815 and when the plane crashed he came back as a ghost.
> 
> Locke's body was on 316. Might we see more of Locke?


We'll absolutely see more of Locke. He's the central figure as far as the Island is concerned.


Cindy1230 said:


> I got very distracted on where I've seen him before, whether it was on the show or elsewhere, and it turns out he was in Vantage Point with Matthew Fox.


That's funny you mention that. We just watched Vantage Point this weekend and while watching Lost, my wife said, "Is that the psycho guy from Vantage Point?"


mostman said:


> I think you are onto something here. Does anyone have a screen cap of the water bottles they picked up before getting into the canoe?


As stated, the water bottles they found definitely said Ajira Air. However, I'm not remembering if they saw a crashed plane? Did they actually see a crashed plane or did they just find water bottles from that airline so we all assumed there must have been another plane crash?


jradford said:


> Yeah, that was odd. I know she wants to see Jin, but she can't be expecting to be returning from the island anytime soon. Tough call, but I guess she chose Jin.


Well, Ben told Jack that once he went back to the Island, he'd be staying there. But for the others, I don't think they have any reason to believe they won't be able to find a way off the Island.


----------



## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

Have any of the "Chronicles of Narnia" references in this episode or in past ones been mentioned here?

- The "lamp post" (I would assume this was an intentional naming by the Dharma folks referencing the book)
- Charlotte's full name is Charlotte Staples Lewis (aka CS Lewis)
- Page "316" in the complete Chronicles of Narnia book is the dedication page for the book Prince Caspian. The facing page 317 is the first chapter of that story and is entitled "The Island". Folks might remember that the Pevensie children ended up back on the island in a completely different time period than when they left.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Magister said:


> Actually... Even sold seats are given up at the end for stand-bys. They were about to board the plane. You have 30mins-60mins (for international) to check in for your flight. If those seats aren't taken, they are generally made available for stand-bys and upgrades.
> 
> So that was completely reasonable.


I think you missed his point. He was saying (facetiously, I think) that because Hurley couldn't have known about the flight until sometime in the 24 hours before the flight, and therefore couldn't have purchased the tickets until then, that it was unrealistic that there were several people trying to get on the plane via standby when 78 tickets were available just 24 hours earlier. Guam is not the type of destination where people simply walk up at the last minute and try to get a seat. Therefore, 78 seats available the day before the crash means it's unlikely there would be more than 1-2 people trying to get on standby for that flight.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Lapidus was the originally scheduled pilot for Flight 815, but for some reason (that hasn't been explained yet) he was replaced by whats-his-name.


I thought that it was implied that Frank was too drunk to fly 815 and he got his buddy to take the flight for him.



scooterboy said:


> What "Beatles inspired hairdo"? His hair looks nothing like any hairdo the Beatles ever had.


It's a joke, son.
It means that Jin has a retro 'do.



hefe said:


> That's the big question I came away with... Alpert? Jack's dad? Jack's granddad? Widmore? Vincent?


Daniel Faraday built the pendulum, in the past.


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Best lines of the episode. LOL!
> 
> Close second best. :up:


I also liked it when Jack said, "Ben there are other people on this plane, what is going to happen to them?"

Ben: "Who cares Jack?"


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Why'd Hurley bring the guitar? Because Charlie had last time?
> 
> Who told Hurley about the flight? Kate? Locke maybe? (that'd be if Locke saw Elloise before comitting suicide).





mrdazzo7 said:


> I'm guessing Charlie is the mystery person who told Hurley about the plane, and he probably told him to bring the guitar> Who the hell knows why.
> 
> Or, it just be filled food...


I also think Charlie told Hurley that he needed to be on that plane and asked him to bring the guitar. Although, I'm a bit surprised the guitar didn't end up in a tree (since that's where Charlie's guitar ended up after 815 crashed)



mrdazzo7 said:


> WTF HAPPENED TO AARON... I didn't see that coming. And I need to know.


My theory is...Kate was torn about going back to the island and eventually she decided (for whatever reason) she HAD to be back. Coming to that conclusion, she knew she would never take Aaron back to that island. So she left Aaron with the one person she knew he would be safe with...Claire's mother. I think Kate is not just going back for Sawyer, but she knows that she has to find out if Claire is alive too...for Aaron's sake. And she probably turned up at Claire's mom's hotel room and explained as much as she could to her and gave her Aaron.



> - Did Charlie tell Hurley where to be? If not, how did he know. Actually how the hell did he get out of jail?


Ben's lawyer said he would get Hurley out at his arraignment.



3D said:


> Which brings me back to my original question? Why? Why didn't the plane time travel with Jack and company?


That plane isn't suppose to be there maybe??? Maybe the plane DOES crash just not right there. Maybe the plane flew over at the same time as a flash and because the Losties are connected to the island, they moved with the flash...taking Frank, of course. Then the plane crashes (without a pilot) and the Algiria (or whatever it was called) airlines stuff washes up on shore...we know the Losties left on the island previously came across the remains there on the beach.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

scsiguy72 said:


> I also liked it when Jack said, "Ben there are other people on this plane, what is going to happen to them?"
> 
> Ben: "Who cares Jack?"


Which gives another peek about how driven Ben is and how he really only cares about himself.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

scsiguy72 said:


> I also liked it when Jack said, "Ben there are other people on this plane, what is going to happen to them?"
> 
> Ben: "Who cares Jack?"


Like when he killed Keamy.

"You just killed everyone on that freighter."

Ben: "So?"


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Magister said:


> Actually... Even sold seats are given up at the end for stand-bys. They were about to board the plane. You have 30mins-60mins (for international) to check in for your flight. If those seats aren't taken, they are generally made available for stand-bys and upgrades.
> 
> So that was completely reasonable.


Exactly. As that's mostly the whole point of stand-by - to get an already sold seat where the person it was originally allocated for is a 'no show'. If the only way to get a seat is for said seat to not yet sold, then there'd be little point for standy-by lists.


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I was puzzled why Sayid would be in a Marshall's care on a flight to Guam. Made zero sense to me. But perhaps them showing Sayid killing people in other countries allows this to be plausible.


When I saw the marshal escorting Sayid, I immediately thought She looked a little like Anne Lucia


----------



## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

whitepelican said:


> Have any of the "Chronicles of Narnia" references in this episode or in past ones been mentioned here?


Interesting!


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I thought Sayid might have been holding the marshall hostage. At one point it looked like he was walking behind her, and he had his jacket over his forearm, like he was hiding a gun. I can't swear to it; my memory sucks. I'd have to go back and check.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Jeeters said:


> Exactly. As that's mostly the whole point of stand-by - to get an already sold seat where the person it was originally allocated for is a 'no show'. If the only way to get a seat is for said seat to not yet sold, then there'd be little point for standy-by lists.


So here's the question. What happens when someone buys all the seats and is there to check in, as Hurley was? Can one person check in for 78 seats? I would think yes.

But that also raises this question: if Mrs. Hawking knew approximately where/when the plane needed to be in order for them to get back to the island, and if Hurley was willing to spend tons of money to get on the flight (a presumably Sun has plenty of money at her disposal as well) and finally, if they all believed the plane was going to crash and the rest of the passengers would be killed, why didn't Hurley simply charter a plane for their little group?

Yet another question/observation: We have been led to believe that Flight 815 crashed because Desmond didn't push the button in time. Perhaps, the Losties were always intended to come to the Island, but the rest of the passengers didn't need to die in the crash for them to arrive there. The Island would have plucked them out of the plane if it hadn't been for Desmond not pushing the button. So in this instance, is it possible that the plane continued on to Guam without crashing, and the Island simply took those people from the plane that were supposed to come back?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

crowfan said:


> I thought Sayid might have been holding the marshall hostage. At one point it looked like he was walking behind her, *and he had his jacket over his forearm, like he was hiding a gun.* I can't swear to it; my memory sucks. I'd have to go back and check.


That's also how you would be walked through a public area in handcuffs so that they wouldn't show and upset onlookers.. that's what I took from that same view.

Diane


----------



## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

So it looks like everyone had some kind of "attachment" to another person; Jack had the shoes for Locke, Hurley had the guitar for Charlie, Sayid, etc...

I wonder if Kate is now pregant with Jack's baby and her attachment is Claire??


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

And isn't stand by cheaper?

If you couldn't afford a ticket really and were going to Guam in the next few days, be cheaper to get that and wait, IF you had the time


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> That's also how you would be walked through a public area in handcuffs so that they wouldn't show and upset onlookers.. that's what I took from that same view.
> 
> Diane


True, of course. It was kinda just a feeling I got. Probably wrong.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I'm not sure why the gate agent tried to call people off the standby list though... if the tickets are purchased the system wouldn't show empty seats...


He can buy them, but if he doesn't check in, those seats are available. It's just like when people miss their flight. That seat opens up for somebody else.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

verdugan said:


> He can buy them, but if he doesn't check in, those seats are available. It's just like when people miss their flight. That seat opens up for somebody else.


Why wouldn't he have checked in? He was there.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

verdugan said:


> He can buy them, but if he doesn't check in, those seats are available. It's just like when people miss their flight. That seat opens up for somebody else.


Sorry magister for the smeek.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

aindik said:


> Why wouldn't he have checked in? He was there.


Not sure if one passenger can check in for 78 seats. I mean, Hurley is a big boy, but not *that* big. 

Based on the fact that the gate agent said that there were 78 stand by seats available, it would be reasonable to assume that those 78 passengers hadn't checked in.

Of course, it's a tv show. So assumptions that apply in real life are out the window.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

scsiguy72 said:


> I also liked it when Jack said, "Ben there are other people on this plane, what is going to happen to them?"
> 
> Ben: "Who cares Jack?"


Asking that question once you're on the plane is too little, too late. IMHO.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> And isn't stand by cheaper?
> 
> If you couldn't afford a ticket really and were going to Guam in the next few days, be cheaper to get that and wait, IF you had the time


No.

If you just show up at the airport the day of and try to fly somewhere they'll charge you a fortune.

Right?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> I don't think Ben is pure evil. I think he's an ends justifies the means kind of guy and he'll do bad things to justify good ends. But everything he does is not completely self-less and I'm sure he wants to end up happy and healthy no matter the cost to other people.





scsiguy72 said:


> I also liked it when Jack said, "Ben there are other people on this plane, what is going to happen to them?"
> 
> Ben: "Who cares Jack?"


NoThru makes a good point... but Ben's comment definitely sounds pretty evil to me.

ETA: sort of smeeky, sorry.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

verdugan said:


> Not sure if one passenger can check in for 78 seats. I mean, Hurley is a big boy, but not *that* big.


These days with computerized kiosk check-in, or even check-in online, they have no idea how many people are actually there to check in, and you don't even need to be there to check in.


----------



## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> No.
> 
> If you just show up at the airport the day of and try to fly somewhere they'll charge you a fortune.
> 
> Right?


But can you buy a stand by weeks in advance? Maybe if you are really low on income?

Not a clue, never done stand by, so no idea


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> And isn't stand by cheaper?
> 
> If you couldn't afford a ticket really and were going to Guam in the next few days, be cheaper to get that and wait, IF you had the time


Airlines don't sell "standby" tickets. They simply oversell their flights because their past experience shows that a certain amount of people don't show up. Standby usually consists of people trying to catch an earlier/later flight than what they're scheduled on, passengers who got rebooked from a different flight due to weather or mechanical issues, or employees/family/friends who only have standby privileges, etc. But you can't simply go to an airline and purchase a "standby" ticket. And as drew said, generally the closer you get to departure, the more expensive the ticket is, not the other way around.

Unless we learn something in a later episode, we have no reason to believe that Hurley knew about this flight more than 36 hours prior to its departure, so anyone purchasing a ticket prior to that would have been buying a ticket on a largely empty flight, not one that was oversold.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I can't believe so many posts have been about the airplane tickets. It's one thing in LOST that's done and over with, will not be mentioned in the show again. I understand talking about it because it may not be feasible, but as someone already has said once or twice... it's LOST... is enough explanation for me.

There are other things worth discussing.. 
how about... the date on the island poster Mrs. Hawking had.. 9/23/54.
That's shy one day of 50 years of the 815 crash, 9/22/04


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> I can't believe so many posts have been about the airplane tickets. It's one thing in LOST that's done and over with, will not be mentioned in the show again. I understand talking about it because it may not be feasible, but as someone already has said once or twice... it's LOST... is enough explanation for me.


I think the reason is because it's something we can generally provide a definitive answer for, because as far as we know, airlines on Lost operate in the same manner as airlines in the real world. So it can be discussed and those with knowledge of the subject share their information. But the other stuff, like time travel, etc. is pointless to discuss (IMO) because there are not rules or outside information that we can use to form our opinions, and we're simply left to watch what the writers have come up with.


----------



## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

JYoung said:


> It's a joke, son.
> It means that Jin has a retro 'do.


Sorry, I didn't get it.

Still don't. But carry on...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

We can discuss whatever we want to discuss. 


So, about the airline tickets...

If the gang ever makes it back again will they be allowed to fly commercial? Being on two mysterious plane occurances along with buying 78 tickets...

I wouldn't fly with them (unless I was up for an adventure).


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Jack's granddad looks younger than Jack's dad.


Granddad's not a drunk.

*Aviation Nerd Alert!*

My main problem is the plane they used looked like a variant of the Airbus A320. I don't think any model of the A320 has the range to reach Guam from L.A. and I don't the think any of the A320s had the sufficient ETOPS rating to fly that far over water even if it had the range.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Why is it still repeated here that Ben said whoever turns the wheel cannot return to the island. Ben LIES! Everything he says is generally considered a lie, but THAT line is regarded as truth. Why? That statement is as much a lie as anything. He wanted off the island to exact his revenge on Widmore, and the wheel was the fastest way for him to accomplish that.

[speculation] I can't believe that I am the only person who assumes that the reason that the O6 needed to get back to the island was because they were in some way corporately responsible for the "event" that made entry of the numbers into the computer necessary. Eloise knew that they had to go back, and if they didn't, 'God help us all." A temporal paradox would have resulted. We know that Daniel was there at the time the stations were being constructed, and since they all are in the same time period, they all have to be then. The O6 need to be there, and then to do what history says has already happened. That's why everyone has been so vague about it. If Candle had shown pictures of the people who caused the incident and described it in detail, then we all would have known, and the drama would have been absent. The O6 would have obviously recognized them selves and never caused the incident, creating a paradox. this way it plays out historically, correctly. [/speculation]

Since Faraday said historical events can only happen once, the losties in general cannot change history. They can only fulfill what has already happened.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> Granddad's not a drunk.
> 
> *Aviation Nerd Alert!*
> 
> My main problem is the plane they used looked like a variant of the Airbus A320. I don't think any model of the A320 has the range to reach Guam from L.A. and I don't the think any of the A320s had the sufficient ETOPS rating to fly that far over water even if it had the range.


I thought I heard the flight announcement say it was service to Honolulu and Guam.

ETA: Not at home to watch, but here is the episode's transcript.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Wow, the economy does suck if a flight to Hawaii in February is that empty.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Any ideas about the song on the radio of the dharma van?
Don't think it's long enough to shazam it


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think you missed his point. He was saying (facetiously, I think) that because Hurley couldn't have known about the flight until sometime in the 24 hours before the flight, and therefore couldn't have purchased the tickets until then, that it was unrealistic that there were several people trying to get on the plane via standby when 78 tickets were available just 24 hours earlier. Guam is not the type of destination where people simply walk up at the last minute and try to get a seat. Therefore, 78 seats available the day before the crash means it's unlikely there would be more than 1-2 people trying to get on standby for that flight.


That's what I was saying exactly, and yes, it was meant in a joking way. I thought someone might post "funny observation" and that would be the end of it. To anyone who feels that the thread has been derailed by an exorbitant amount of airline procedure talks that surely have nothing to do with the mysteries yet to be solved, I apologize now for whatever part my post played in that derailment. 



Church AV Guy said:


> Why is it still repeated here that Ben said whoever turns the wheel cannot return to the island. Ben LIES! ...
> 
> [speculation] I can't believe that I am the only person who assumes that the reason that the O6 needed to get back to the island was because they were in some way corporately responsible for the "event" that made entry of the numbers into the computer necessary. Eloise knew that they had to go back, and if they didn't, 'God help us all." A temporal paradox would have resulted. We know that Daniel was there at the time the stations were being constructed, and since they all are in the same time period, they all have to be then. The O6 need to be there, and then to do what history says has already happened. That's why everyone has been so vague about it. If Candle had shown pictures of the people who caused the incident and described it in detail, then we all would have known, and the drama would have been absent. The O6 would have obviously recognized them selves and never caused the incident, creating a paradox. this way it plays out historically, correctly. [/speculation]
> 
> Since Faraday said historical events can only happen once, the losties in general cannot change history. They can only fulfill what has already happened.


That's some damn good speculation.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the reason is because it's something we can generally provide a definitive answer for, because as far as we know, airlines on Lost operate in the same manner as airlines in the real world. So it can be discussed and those with knowledge of the subject share their information. But the other stuff, like time travel, etc. is pointless to discuss (IMO) because there are not rules or outside information that we can use to form our opinions, and we're simply left to watch what the writers have come up with.


Definitely fair enough. I'm just bored at work, so I need something to do...and didn't feel like researching stand by tickets... don't think i've ever posted this much within 24 hours of an episode airing.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Add "Kate being pregnant" onto the list of ways the O6 recreated the original flight. Kind of a timely tryst for Kate and Jack, don't you think?


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Now, if adam and eve end up being anyone we've seen on the show I think it will SCREAM paradox--how can you come across your own skeletons, fifty years after your death, when you haven't even time traveled yet?


I'm confused by this comment. Even if you think of your life in a linear motion, from birth to death, despite bumbling through time, that linearity still exists. You grow older the longer you live despite what time period you are in.

Now if you find a skeleton of yourself that died in the past, in order for that to happen, you will know that at some point you will travel into the past and die. There's no paradox being committed here just by seeing a skeleton of yourself that died fifty years prior in the time of the world.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> NoThru makes a good point... but Ben's comment definitely sounds pretty evil to me.


My point was that Ben may be working towards an endgoal that is for some kind of greater good, but his methods are definitely evil.


uncdrew said:


> Wow, the economy does suck if a flight to Hawaii in February is that empty.


Guam is not Hawaii.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> My point was that Ben may be working towards an endgoal that is for some kind of greater good, but his methods are definitely evil.
> 
> Guam is not Hawaii.


The flight stopped in Honolulu the way to Guam, see my post above.


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> Granddad's not a drunk.
> 
> *Aviation Nerd Alert!*
> 
> My main problem is the plane they used looked like a variant of the Airbus A320. I don't think any model of the A320 has the range to reach Guam from L.A. and I don't the think any of the A320s had the sufficient ETOPS rating to fly that far over water even if it had the range.


I thought it was a 737. Continental has 737's flying out out of Guam. A quick check of their timetable shows a bunch of non-stop flights on 737-800s to Japan, Australia, Philippines.

There is one flight between Guam and LAX using a 737-800 (flight 956), but it has 5 stops! 

So I agree with you, the plane they showed (whether A320 or 737) wouldn't have the range to fly between Guam and Hawaii. I'm an airplane geek as well. :up:


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I think this is the first episode this season to open with a shot of one open eye. Is that right?
> 
> Oh, and at first I thought it was dumb that Jack was wearing a suit to go back on the island. But that got explained.


Not only that, it was intentionally shot to look like the opening scene of the entire series where Jack woke up in the jungle the first time.


----------



## MasterCephus (Jan 3, 2005)

> [speculation] I can't believe that I am the only person who assumes that the reason that the O6 needed to get back to the island was because they were in some way corporately responsible for the "event" that made entry of the numbers into the computer necessary. Eloise knew that they had to go back, and if they didn't, 'God help us all." A temporal paradox would have resulted. We know that Daniel was there at the time the stations were being constructed, and since they all are in the same time period, they all have to be then. The O6 need to be there, and then to do what history says has already happened. That's why everyone has been so vague about it. If Candle had shown pictures of the people who caused the incident and described it in detail, then we all would have known, and the drama would have been absent. The O6 would have obviously recognized them selves and never caused the incident, creating a paradox. this way it plays out historically, correctly. [/speculation]


I just don't think that could happen...it's circular logic...

They have to be in the past because they caused the event that caused them to get to the island that inevitably starts the series of events where they have to time travel.

It might be the case, but I don't like that because there is no starting or end point.


----------



## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

wprager said:


> Interesting tid-bit. The actor who played the guy behind Jack saying he was sorry about him losing his friend -- his name is Said Taghmaoui.


Thank you!!! I knew I remembered him from somewhere. He was in Traitor and The Kite Runner...


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> But that also raises this question: if Mrs. Hawking knew approximately where/when the plane needed to be in order for them to get back to the island, and if Hurley was willing to spend tons of money to get on the flight (a presumably Sun has plenty of money at her disposal as well) and finally, if they all believed the plane was going to crash and the rest of the passengers would be killed, why didn't Hurley simply charter a plane for their little group?


Because Ms. Hawking said they had to create as many of the same conditions as 815 that they could. They took a commercial flight before, so they needed to this time.

It's a simple way to explain away a lot of things that seem goofy otherwise (like Jack wearing a suit and the O6 not bringing supplies that would be useful on the island).


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> As stated, the water bottles they found definitely said Ajira Air. However, I'm not remembering if they saw a crashed plane? Did they actually see a crashed plane or did they just find water bottles from that airline so we all assumed there must have been another plane crash?


I don't remember this either--I don't think anyone has said for sure that there was plane wreckage. Also, what time were they in then? And wasn't that when they saw the big canoes and were shot at, or am I remembering 2 different times?

Ben's lack of concern for the other passengers could have been because he knew they would continue their flight safely. But if they did, either Lapidus didn't go down, or there was a co-pilot. If the plane continued, I wonder what the story in the papers said? It reminds me of the Left Behind books.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I don't remember this either--I don't think anyone has said for sure that there was plane wreckage. Also, what time were they in then? And wasn't that when they saw the big canoes and were shot at, or am I remembering 2 different times?
> 
> Ben's lack of concern for the other passengers could have been because he knew they would continue their flight safely. But if they did, either Lapidus didn't go down, or there was a co-pilot. If the plane continued, I wonder what the story in the papers said? It reminds me of the Left Behind books.


I thought there was wreckage, because when I saw it my first thought was that they had found the wreckage from their own plane. I'll have to go back and watch it again, but am pretty sure I saw some wreckage and Sawyer, Juliet and the gang commented on it being wreckage. So my vote is for wreckage.


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

That's How I remember it. They saw wreckage, but said.."It's not ours"


----------



## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

tivoboyjr said:


> I thought there was wreckage, because when I saw it my first thought was that they had found the wreckage from their own plane. I'll have to go back and watch it again, but am pretty sure I saw some wreckage and Sawyer, Juliet and the gang commented on it being wreckage. So my vote is for wreckage.


They did see wreckage but it was wreckage from Rousseau's French ship.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

they saw wreckage from Danielle's boat. A can had French writing on it


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

scsiguy72 said:


> When I saw the marshal escorting Sayid, I immediately thought She looked a little like Anne Lucia


The scene where they were walking through the airport together. Haven't we seen that earlier in the series? Was it a flash forward or flash back or something at one point? I *know* I've seen it before.

I'm talking about just the little clip of them going through the security line or whatever. Maybe even a picture of that clip.

What am I remembering here?


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

goMO said:


> So it looks like everyone had some kind of "attachment" to another person; Jack had the shoes for Locke, Hurley had the guitar for Charlie, Sayid, etc...
> 
> I wonder if Kate is now pregant with Jack's baby and her attachment is Claire??


+1


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

stalemate said:


> The scene where they were walking through the airport together. Haven't we seen that earlier in the series? Was it a flash forward or flash back or something at one point? I *know* I've seen it before.
> 
> I'm talking about just the little clip of them going through the security line or whatever. Maybe even a picture of that clip.
> 
> What am I remembering here?


I thought that, as well. Well, about the Sayid scene... is that the one you meant? But, I decided it was just set up exactly as the scene when Kate is taken through the airport way back when.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

SoBelle0 said:


> I thought that, as well. Well, about the Sayid scene... is that the one you meant? But, I decided it was just set up exactly as the scene when Kate is taken through the airport way back when.


Yeah, the Sayid scene. That's the one I'm talking about. It is soooooo familiar.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Well sure, we'll see him, and I'm sure it won't just be in the coffin. The question is how? Only in flashbacks to before he died? (meaning "before" in the usual sense, ignoring the time flashes) Or will we see him post-death, like Ana-Lucia, Charlie, et. al.?


Christian came (perhaps came back?) to the island in a coffin and has been seen wandering around as if he is alive. I presume Locke will be the same.



Scubee said:


> With Jack's grandfather being played by a fairly well-established character actor, I can't shake the thought that we'll see him again. Plus, they used the same line about getting away from where they were. Wasn't it something along the lines of "a better place than this"?


If Jack's father and Jack have strong connections to the island, it makes since his grandfather would, too. I bet he was part of the Dharma Initiative. Perhaps he left the island because his wife was pregnant with Christian.



unicorngoddess said:


> My theory is...Kate was torn about going back to the island and eventually she decided (for whatever reason) she HAD to be back. Coming to that conclusion, she knew she would never take Aaron back to that island. So she left Aaron with the one person she knew he would be safe with...Claire's mother. I think Kate is not just going back for Sawyer, but she knows that she has to find out if Claire is alive too...for Aaron's sake. And she probably turned up at Claire's mom's hotel room and explained as much as she could to her and gave her Aaron.


I believe this is correct. I also believe that Aaron is on the plane, too. As well as Sun's child.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Regarding the Donkey wheel and the island moving. 

I think that when the donkey wheel is moving, the island is moving. At some point Darma or something frooze the wheel in place so that the island would also stay in one place. This is how the other knew where it was at all times, however it was "hidden", Ben had to get the wheel moving again so that it would start moving, he assumed that once it started moving he couldn't go back because he wouldn't be able to find it. Unfortnetly when he started the wheel he knocked it off center and caused everything to go out of whack. Locke fixed it. 

The problem is that they seem to be stuck in the past now.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I thought Sayid being in custody was pretty obvious. Ben turned him in. It is all part of Ben's having contingency plans.


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I got very distracted on where I've seen him before, whether it was on the show or elsewhere, and it turns out he was in Vantage Point with Matthew Fox.


Same here because I just saw that movie on cable a week ago and he was a sneaky bastard in that movie.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Sayid could be going to 2 places: to the Seychelles for the golf course killing, or maybe he was declared a "terrorist" and with Gitmo closing he was being taken back to Iraq. Sayid was obviously surprised to see Jack board the plane, so it seemed like he wasn't in on the plan.

Interesting that Jack was carrying a letter like Sawyer was, and he was the only one who had his row number called out. On 815 he was in row 23, this time around up to row 8. Bet it sucked to have to buy tickets on AjiraAir when you have that freebie pass from Oceanic.

Ben said his mother taught him to read? I thought he was just being snarky, just a sarcastic answer to Jack. It's how Ben talks to people he likes. It's deeper purpose was to remind the audience of what happened to his mom and how Ben wound up on the island. Sure, it was a lie but Ben, lying? Stop the presses. I also don't think he got beat up doing whatever he was doing on that dock. There's blood, he hurt his arm, there's some cuts, and he's wet - but no black eyes, fat lips, or broken nose. Weird bruises and cuts way up on his forehead, for instance.

And Sayid got WAY luckier with his escort than Kate did with hers.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> And Sayid got WAY luckier with his escort than Kate did with hers.


Oh, I don't know about that. IIRC, Kate got pretty dang lucky with hers!


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Too tired to dig around 5+ pages here...

So what do folks think the significance is of the guy who commented to Jack about "losing your friend"...they also made sure to show him close up a few times on the plane.


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Alfer said:


> Too tired to dig around 5+ pages here...
> 
> So what do folks think the significance is of the guy who commented to Jack about "losing your friend"...they also made sure to show him close up a few times on the plane.


We have seen him before.


----------



## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Cindy1230 said:


> I got very distracted on where I've seen him before, whether it was on the show or elsewhere, and it turns out he was in Vantage Point with Matthew Fox.


He was also the Iraqi soldier who tortured marky mark in The Three Kings (with Ice Cube and George Clooney). Ironic eh? The guy's name is Said, and he played an iraqi interrogator, who's character's name is..... Captain Said .... iiinnnteerrresting.....


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> We have seen him before.


Ok...when..? Where?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> Christian came (perhaps came back?) to the island in a coffin and has been seen wandering around as if he is alive. I presume Locke will be the same.


Possibly, but Christian is unique among the people whom we have seen walking and talking after having died (not in flashbacks, of course, and for now, ignoring people who have appeared in others' dreams). Charlie, for example (assuming he wasn't just a figment of Hurley's mind), was still essentially Charlie, the same person he always was, just seemingly having access to additional knowledge he wouldn't have had otherwise. Christian, however, is nothing like what we saw of him while he was alive. I think there is a lot that still hasn't been revealed to us about him, about why he is in the role he now is. We have no indication whatsoever that he had any connection to the island at any prior point in time.

Anyway, I think that if we see Locke in a similar way, i.e. where he appears and disappears, etc., it will still be hard to put him and Christian in the same category since I can't imagine Locke not still being essentially Locke.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Alfer said:


> Too tired to dig around 5+ pages here...
> 
> So what do folks think the significance is of the guy who commented to Jack about "losing your friend"...they also made sure to show him close up a few times on the plane.





scottykempf said:


> We have seen him before.


He has not appeared in Lost before.

I was wondering though, did he simply overhear Jack's conversation with the agent, or had Jack just wheeled the coffin up to the counter with the rest of his luggage? I would suspect that there are special areas in airports for such cargo, and that those questions would have been asked when he dropped it off there. I could be wrong though.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

aindik said:


> There was way too much over-convenient "ask a question and get a pithy non-answer answer and not follow up for the real answer" dialogue for my taste in this episode. I just wanted someone to say "no, seriously" and then ask the question again.
> Jack: How did you know to get here?
> Hurley: All that matters is I'm here, right.
> Jack: Right. But seriously, how the hell did you know to get here?


The only time I had an issue with that was Ben's non-answer to Jack's question about how exactly Eloise was involved in all of this. The other times, like in the case with Hurley, it was pretty clear that the other person wasn't willing to answer any more questions, and I'm glad they didn't waste time having extra back and forth dialogue simply to get us to the same non-answers.



jradford said:


> Yeah, that was odd. I know she wants to see Jin, but she can't be expecting to be returning from the island anytime soon. Tough call, but I guess she chose Jin.


I'm sure it was tough to leave her baby behind, but I think the decision was clear. If the baby was on one island and Jin on another, that would be different. But the baby is safe with family, while Jin is still stuck on the island and, as far as she knows, might not be aware that she made it off and is alive and doing well. I'm sure she's hoping that she and Jin will ultimately get off the island, and the short period of time away from her baby will be more than made up by the rest of their years being spent together as a whole family.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> If Jack's father and Jack have strong connections to the island, it makes since his grandfather would, too. I bet he was part of the Dharma Initiative. Perhaps he left the island because his wife was pregnant with Christian.


Timeline doesn't fit for Christian to have been involved with Dharma. As far as we know, Dharma was on the Island from the 70s to the early 80s. Christian was at least in his mid to late 50s when he died in 2004, so he was likely born in the 40s. It's possible he has been on the Island before, as a child, but not likely that he was involved with Dharma.


----------



## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Timeline doesn't fit for Christian to have been involved with Dharma. As far as we know, Dharma was on the Island from the 70s to the early 80s. Christian was at least in his mid to late 50s when he died in 2004, so he was likely born in the 40s. It's possible he has been on the Island before, as a child, but not likely that he was involved with Dharma.


I believe she meant that Ray (GrandDad) could have been involved with Dharma.
And FWIW the photo of the island on the wall in The Lampost was dated 1954.


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

Have we figured out the time line between Ben at the Donkey Wheel and Locke at the Broken Donkey Wheel?

I don't remember seeing any evidence that the wall into the Orchid was broken when Locke was there. How do we know John was fixing Ben's mistake?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

goMO said:


> So it looks like everyone had some kind of "attachment" to another person; Jack had the shoes for Locke, Hurley had the guitar for Charlie, Sayid, etc...
> 
> I wonder if Kate is now pregant with Jack's baby and her attachment is Claire??





jradford said:


> Add "Kate being pregnant" onto the list of ways the O6 recreated the original flight. Kind of a timely tryst for Kate and Jack, don't you think?


Oops, I missed your post. Change mine to "+1."

On an unrelated note:

I was thinking about the topic of the "Other Passengers," as brought up by Jack and obviously noticed by Hurley. What if the group from flight 815 were also originally "Other Passengers?" What if the kids and the flight attendant who were taken and "joined" the others were the only ones that needed to get to the island, much like this new O6 need to get there. Not too likely a theory, but it was hard not to think about it when considering all the similarities between the flights.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

scsiguy72 said:


> Have we figured out the time line between Ben at the Donkey Wheel and Locke at the Broken Donkey Wheel?
> 
> I don't remember seeing any evidence that the wall into the Orchid was broken when Locke was there. How do we know John was fixing Ben's mistake?


From a linear standpoint, Locke turned the wheel after Ben did, so he was fixing Ben's mistake. That the time period on the Island when Locke turned the wheel was likely prior to Ben's turning of the wheel is irrelevant, IMO.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jradford said:


> Oops, I missed your post. Change mine to "+1."
> 
> On an unrelated note:
> 
> I was thinking about the topic of the "Other Passengers," as brought up by Jack and obviously noticed by Hurley. What if the group from flight 815 were also originally "Other Passengers?" What if the kids and the flight attendant who were taken and "joined" the others were the only ones that needed to get to the island, much like this new O6 need to get there. Not too likely a theory, but it was hard not to think about it when considering all the similarities between the flights.


Interesting speculation. Hard to imagine the kids were in that position, but certainly Cindy and even Libby seem possible. Maybe Libby was in the mental hospital because she had the same type of trouble adjusting to life off of the island that Hurley wound up having.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> My theory is...Kate was torn about going back to the island and eventually she decided (for whatever reason) she HAD to be back. Coming to that conclusion, she knew she would never take Aaron back to that island. So she left Aaron with the one person she knew he would be safe with...Claire's mother. I think Kate is not just going back for Sawyer, but she knows that she has to find out if Claire is alive too...for Aaron's sake. And she probably turned up at Claire's mom's hotel room and explained as much as she could to her and gave her Aaron.


I can't go along with that theory. Kate knows that Claire's mother is connected -- through her lawyer -- to Ben, which puts Aaron in jeopardy. Ben admitted to her and Jack (and Sun?) that he was the one looking to get Kate's blood test in order to take Aaron from Kate.

But I was also wondering where Aaron was, since it was made abundantly clear that all six people HAD TO return, and that included Aaron.

I wonder if Locke's coffin is in a tree, or floating in the lagoon, and the returnees have to pull a "Weekend at Bernie's" routine with Locke's body. 

Actually, I think Locke will have been resurrected by returning to the island.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> He has not appeared in Lost before.
> 
> I was wondering though, did he simply overhear Jack's conversation with the agent, or had Jack just wheeled the coffin up to the counter with the rest of his luggage? I would suspect that there are special areas in airports for such cargo, and that those questions would have been asked when he dropped it off there. I could be wrong though.


"Sir, will you be checking your coffin today or carrying it on?"


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> If Jack's father and Jack have strong connections to the island, it makes since his grandfather would, too. I bet he was part of the Dharma Initiative. Perhaps he left the island because his wife was pregnant with Christian.


I think it's more likely that his grandfather involvement with the island was as a result of being in the US Army rather than being with the Dharma Initiative.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

tivoboyjr said:


> "Sir, will you be checking your coffin today or carrying it on?"


Do they charge the same price as a regular passenger ticket, or is subject to the $25 charge for oversized luggage?


----------



## verdugan (Sep 9, 2003)

scsiguy72 said:


> I don't remember seeing any evidence that the wall into the Orchid was broken when Locke was there. How do we know John was fixing Ben's mistake?


Didn't Jack's father tell Locke (when he was injured at the bottom of the well) that he had to fix it because this all happened due to Ben turning the wheel instead of Locke like he'd been told?

If that's the case, this was Locke's mistake by letting Ben do it rather than following the instructions from Jacob and doing it himself.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jradford said:


> Oops, I missed your post. Change mine to "+1."
> 
> On an unrelated note:
> 
> I was thinking about the topic of the "Other Passengers," as brought up by Jack and obviously noticed by Hurley. What if the group from flight 815 were also originally "Other Passengers?" What if the kids and the flight attendant who were taken and "joined" the others were the only ones that needed to get to the island, much like this new O6 need to get there. Not too likely a theory, but it was hard not to think about it when considering all the similarities between the flights.


That is, indeed, interesting speculation, but we know what caused that plane to crash. So first there would be the question of why flight 815 was able to get to the island? Was there the same sort of "window" that Mrs. Hawking spoke of? Why would Jack, et. al. have remembered crashing on 815 but not this time, if they got there via the same sort of event?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Jack: "How can you read?!?!"

Ben: "My mother taught me."

Best line of the night!


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

So, if someone on the plane had to be pregnant with Christian's grandchild -- like Claire last time -- Did Jack and Kate...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> That is, indeed, interesting speculation, but we know what caused that plane to crash. So first there would be the question of why flight 815 was able to get to the island? Was there the same sort of "window" that Mrs. Hawking spoke of? Why would Jack, et. al. have remembered crashing on 815 but not this time, if they got there via the same sort of event?


Actually, the real question isn't why Jack crashed the first time, but why Cindy and whoever else were returning via 815 crashed instead of time-hopping like Jack did on his return flight.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

3D said:


> Actually, the real question isn't why Jack crashed the first time, but why Cindy and whoever else were returning via 815 crashed instead of time-hopping like Jack did on his return flight.


Well maybe it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing. If Cindy and whoever else were not returning, then why it crashed the first time isn't really a question.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Who's Cindy?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

scsiguy72 said:


> Have we figured out the time line between Ben at the Donkey Wheel and Locke at the Broken Donkey Wheel?
> 
> I don't remember seeing any evidence that the wall into the Orchid was broken when Locke was there. How do we know John was fixing Ben's mistake?


That's a very good point. Come to think of it, assuming that the path Locke walked through was off-camera in the original shot of the donkey wheel room, I don't know that we have any evidence at all that this is chronologically-from-the-island's-point-of-view AFTER Ben's turn.. All we have is a Christian that knows that Ben "did" turn the wheel instead of Locke, which is the only real evidence I think we've seen, but that could be explained if Christian knows things that happened/will-happen/etc or if he isn't locked to the island's time.

..maybe he's fixing a broken wheel from Widmore turning it and breaking it?

The only thing that makes it feel like it was Ben's turn that broke the wheel is that people around him when he turned it all started jumping through time (relative to the island), and not others (like Danielle).



jradford said:


> I was thinking about the topic of the "Other Passengers," as brought up by Jack and obviously noticed by Hurley. What if the group from flight 815 were also originally "Other Passengers?" What if the kids and the flight attendant who were taken and "joined" the others were the only ones that needed to get to the island, much like this new O6 need to get there. Not too likely a theory, but it was hard not to think about it when considering all the similarities between the flights.


Interesting idea.



DevdogAZ said:


> From a linear standpoint, Locke turned the wheel after Ben did, so he was fixing Ben's mistake. That the time period on the Island when Locke turned the wheel was likely prior to Ben's turning of the wheel is irrelevant, IMO.


I gotta disagree here.. We don't know if Locke turned the wheel before or after Ben (according to island time), and that would seem to be the only relevant time seeing as how the wheel is attached to the island.. If someone breaks the wheel, it's broken (from the wheel's point of view) AFTER they broke it. From the wheel/island's point of view, we don't know which is first (although we can guess).

All we know for sure is that when John turned the wheel, there wasn't a well above him. Either it had been filled in (which feels unlikely, because the cave ceiling that John looked at didn't look like it was patched up or a hole merely filled with dirt or anything), or John was now before the well had ever existed.

Maybe this flashing has been happening for hundreds of years, but only for other people who were "on the ride".. Our Losties on the island from Sept 2004 until Jan 2004 weren't jumping around just like Danielle wasn't jumping around.. But maybe the stewardess jumped.. Maybe Juliette's therapist jumped (when she disappeared). Maybe anyone else we've seen that disappeared (even the horse?) jumped.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

ct1 said:


> So, if someone on the plane had to be pregnant with Christian's grandchild -- like Claire last time -- Did Jack and Kate...


lay in bed together, naked? Of course. Doesn't mean anything "else" happened.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Who's Cindy?


<----- Allow me to introduce myself. 

She was the oceanic flight attendant who went to live with the others and was taking care of the kids. We haven't seen her since season 3 i think..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, so here's another thing I was thinking..

In the "is the island moving through time or are Sawyer/Juliette/Faraday/etc moving through time?" department, I thought we just saw something that would make the "the island is moving through time, and they are only moving through space with the island which is also moving through space" version of the story a bit more interesting..

The O6 left in Jan 2005 and spent 3 years off-island. Then they come back.

If Sawyer/Juliette/Faraday/etc weren't actually moving through time (but the island was), then the first few days or so they'd be spending after John turned the wheel would be spent around January 2005ish, but standing on older/(newer?) versions of the island, such as a pre-Dharma island, or an island with Danielle on it for the first time, etc.

What if now that the island-jumping-through-time has stopped, it stopped ahead enough that Sawyer/Juliette/Faraday landed in some Dharma-pre-Orchid-station time (even though in the real world it's like February 2005), they lived the next 3 years of their life with the Dharma initiative, Daniel rides down into the Orchid station, Jin gets a uniform, gun, and Dharma bus, etc, and then after their 3 years the O6 come back.

There ya go. I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't be surprised if Jin/etc have been stuck back there for roughly the same amount of time (minus the days we've seen them hiking around during the flashes) as the O6 spent off the island, and wouldn't be surprised if it was technically still 2008, they're just standing in a Dharma-era version of the island (the island shifted its presence forward in time 30+ years from when we were watching it).

Danielle is the most interesting wrinkle to this theory, since she said she left Tahiti in 1988, the iteration counter seems to say she's been there 16 years, and that actually fits with 2004 when they arrived. Of course it's possible that when she arrived they just happened to see the island when a flash coincided with what time it actually was supposed to be, but that seems unlikely. Instead maybe it's more likely that her story is proof that the island isn't moving in time, just the survivors, as I'd said a week or two ago.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> What if now that the island-jumping-through-time has stopped, it stopped ahead enough that Sawyer/Juliette/Faraday landed in some Dharma-pre-Orchid-station time (even though in the real world it's like February 2005), they lived the next 3 years of their life with the Dharma initiative, Daniel rides down into the Orchid station, Jin gets a uniform, gun, and Dharma bus, etc, and then after their 3 years the O6 come back.


You're right. If the island flashes have stopped, it looks like our O6 folks were transported from 2008 to the 1960s. This will mean (based on three years' passing from when the O6 left and came back) that Sawyer and et al have been living in the 1960s for three years. My prediction is that, like we saw in "The Other 48 Days," we'll have an episode that details exactly what happened in those three years before Jin stumbles on Jack, Kate and Hurley.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Agreed.

Minor spoiler info from podcast:


Spoiler



On last week's podcast they said that the next two (the one we just saw 2 days ago, and next week's) were completely interchangable as to which could air first.. They decided to show us that one first, but it would have been 100% acceptable to do the other first. They left it as an exercise for the obsessed to find the one time that that had ever happened before (but hinted it was veeeery early, like season 1 or 2)


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

getreal said:


> I can't go along with that theory. Kate knows that Claire's mother is connected -- through her lawyer -- to Ben, which puts Aaron in jeopardy. Ben admitted to her and Jack (and Sun?) that he was the one looking to get Kate's blood test in order to take Aaron from Kate.


Except that Claire's mom has no (known) knowledge that Ben and her share the same attorney. Who else would she have left Aaron with? Who else could she have trusted him with? Could she have trusted her own mother with him? Hell no! To give Aaron to his maternal grandmother and tell her that she must protect him at all cost and keep him away from this Ben guy...I think Claire's mom would probably give her life to protect that boy if Kate filled her in on everything and that she would be trying to bring Claire back.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Minor spoiler info from podcast:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


There's no spoilers there.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Jack: "How can you read?!?!"
> 
> Ben: "My mother taught me."
> 
> Best line of the night!


I think we can assume that Ben is a fan of _Airplane!_


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Minor spoiler info from podcast:
> 
> ...


According to the previews for next week:


Spoiler



It looks like we're going to see what happened with Locke when he left the Island and visited the O6. If so, then I think it made more sense for them to air the episodes in the order they did, because this episode had several instances where characters did something without any explanation how or why. I suspect that we'll find out that Locke visiting them is a large part of the reason. But if we had known that stuff beforehand, then "316" wouldn't have been as intriguing.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

hefe said:


> There's no spoilers there.


Well technically there's at least a bit of a spoiler:


Spoiler



We now know that this week's episode won't at all involve Jack Kate and Hurley talking to Jin at the Dharma van, picking up where we left off.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DevdogAZ, wanted you to know I'm not ignoring that, just not reading it. I've avoided the previews this season and have been happy I did so.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

3D said:


> Actually, the real question isn't why Jack crashed the first time, but why Cindy and whoever else were returning via 815 crashed instead of time-hopping like Jack did on his return flight.


We have no evidence that they didn't crash (we have lack of evidence that they did).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> DevdogAZ, wanted you to know I'm not ignoring that, just not reading it. I've avoided the previews this season and have been happy I did so.


It's not a spoiler, per se. It's just my comments about your spoiler viewed through the prism of the previews for next week.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Did I miss what 316 stands for? Was that their new flight number?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Did I miss what 316 stands for? Was that their new flight number?


Yup


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

scsiguy72 said:


> Have we figured out the time line between Ben at the Donkey Wheel and Locke at the Broken Donkey Wheel?
> 
> I don't remember seeing any evidence that the wall into the Orchid was broken when Locke was there. How do we know John was fixing Ben's mistake?





DevdogAZ said:


> From a linear standpoint, Locke turned the wheel after Ben did, so he was fixing Ben's mistake. That the time period on the Island when Locke turned the wheel was likely prior to Ben's turning of the wheel is irrelevant, IMO.


Maybe I don't understand the usage of a linear timeline. I don't see how Locke could fix Ben's mistake before Ben made it. Hadn't thought of that, but it makes the simple explanation a lot more complex. 



BeanMeScot said:


> I believe this is correct. I also believe that Aaron is on the plane, too. As well as Sun's child.


That's interesting, and certainly possible, but how would you explain it? Were they just zapped out of the air and onto the plane? I can't believe Sun or Kate would knowingly let them on. I figured Kate was there to protect Aaron somehow.



unicorngoddess said:


> Except that Claire's mom has no (known) knowledge that Ben and her share the same attorney. Who else would she have left Aaron with? Who else could she have trusted him with? Could she have trusted her own mother with him? Hell no! To give Aaron to his maternal grandmother and tell her that she must protect him at all cost and keep him away from this Ben guy...I think Claire's mom would probably give her life to protect that boy if Kate filled her in on everything and that she would be trying to bring Claire back.


The problem with giving him to Claire's Mom, is that she would never get him back. Which could explain her demeanor. Maybe she was told, like Jack, that she shouldn't plan on returning--then it would make sense. The other possibility is that she left him with Sun's mom. Maybe thinking the Paik family has the chops to protect him from Widmore and Ben along with their granddaughter.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Maybe I don't understand the usage of a linear timeline. I don't see how Locke could fix Ben's mistake before Ben made it. Hadn't thought of that, but it makes the simple explanation a lot more complex.


Locke and Ben were in the Orchid station. Ben went through the cave/tunnel and turned the wheel. A couple of days passed and then Locke went down the well and turned the wheel again. It doesn't really matter what the actual time was when each of these things happened. Ben turned the wheel before Locke.


stellie93 said:


> The problem with giving him to Claire's Mom, is that she would never get him back. Which could explain her demeanor. Maybe she was told, like Jack, that she shouldn't plan on returning--then it would make sense. The other possibility is that she left him with Sun's mom. Maybe thinking the Paik family has the chops to protect him from Widmore and Ben along with their granddaughter.


Sun's mom is in Korea. Kate didn't have time to get Aaron to Korea (to give her son to someone she's never met) and get back to LA in time to see Jack the night before the flight.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Locke and Ben were in the Orchid station. Ben went through the cave/tunnel and turned the wheel. A couple of days passed and then Locke went down the well and turned the wheel again. It doesn't really matter what the actual time was when each of these things happened. Ben turned the wheel before Locke.


When Locke fell down the well during another time flash, he landed in the well/chamber BEFORE it had ever been dug, which also preceded the time that the Dharma Initiative built the Orchid Station. That was explained in the pop-ups in the repeat showing of last weeks episode just prior to airing this weeks episode.

Therefore, Locke turned the broken donkey wheel many years before Ben had turned it in 2004.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> Except that Claire's mom has no (known) knowledge that Ben and her share the same attorney. Who else would she have left Aaron with? Who else could she have trusted him with? Could she have trusted her own mother with him? Hell no! To give Aaron to his maternal grandmother and tell her that she must protect him at all cost and keep him away from this Ben guy...I think Claire's mom would probably give her life to protect that boy if Kate filled her in on everything and that she would be trying to bring Claire back.


I think that is a good theory. She gave him to Claire's mom. Like you say - who else would/could she leave him with? Maybe that will be the end of the Aaron storyline, too, once it is revealed - which I wouldn't mind since it has never gone anywhere.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

getreal said:


> When Locke fell down the well during another time flash, he landed in the well/chamber BEFORE it had ever been dug, which also preceded the time that the Dharma Initiative built the Orchid Station. That was explained in the pop-ups in the repeat showing of last weeks episode just prior to airing this weeks episode.
> 
> Therefore, Locke turned the broken donkey wheel many years before Ben had turned it in 2004.


From Locke's perspective it was: Ben turned the wheel, then (later) Locke turned the wheel. From a perspective of what "year" it was to an outside observer, Locke turned it before. However the wheel could be "outside of time" (so to speak), perhaps jumping w/ our Losties, so from the wheel's perspective (if it had one), Locke turned the wheel after Ben did.

...wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey....


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

getreal said:


> When Locke fell down the well during another time flash, he landed in the well/chamber BEFORE it had ever been dug, which also preceded the time that the Dharma Initiative built the Orchid Station. That was explained in the pop-ups in the repeat showing of last weeks episode just prior to airing this weeks episode.
> 
> Therefore, Locke turned the broken donkey wheel many years before Ben had turned it in 2004.


Right, in the timeline of the Island. But in the linear timeline, which doesn't care what year it is, Locke turned the wheel after Ben turned the wheel.

Think about it this way. When Locke turned the wheel, did he have a memory of being in the Orchid station with Ben and Ben going into the tunnel and then ultimately disappearing? I'd say that he did. So regardless of the fact that Locke turned the wheel in 1954 (or whenever it was) and Ben turned the wheel in 2005, Ben turned the wheel first, because in the linear timeline of Locke's life, he hadn't yet turned the wheel when Ben did.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Locke's perception of when he turned the wheel relative to Ben is completely irrelevant.

The wheel broke, sometime (relative to the wheel) AFTER that, someone fixed it.. Otherwise causality means absolutely nothing and no one's heart would beat in the wheel chamber.. Cause, effect.

I think what we're really seeing is that someone ELSE turned the wheel before Locke.. That's what broke it. Ben's turning of the wheel was irrelevant with respect to it being off its axis.

Possibly Widmore. Or someone else who used to be on the island.

Oh..

Oh..

Unless the island is moving through time, and people are staying in the same time (as I talked about before), and the island is moving around them.. Ben breaks the wheel, the island moves forward and back in time, eventually moves WAY forward in time, such that Locke is all the way back before the wheel was made (still around January/February 2005, but looking at an oooold version of the island), and Locke goes to the donkey wheel. Nope, the island's wheel would still be unbroken.. (the camp went away when going back, the swan station comes back when going back, the donkey wheel fixes itself going back).

Unless that room is out of time (as was suggested), and that's somehow causing a thermal event that makes that room cold.

Ugh.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

I think it can go either way -- the wheel can be "frozen" in time in that it is not effected by all the time jumps. If this is the case, the Ben turning the wheel is in fact what caused to slip off it's axis. The cave would be the one place where time traveling doesn't matter, and the order of events would in fact be Ben turning wheel > Locke turning wheel. 

Or it could just as easily be the other way and that the cave IS going through time jumps as well, and therefore if Locke was turning it in the 70's, someone would have moved it before that time frame. 

I'm more inclined to think that Locke was correcting Ben's mistake and not someone elses because it seems to me that the wheel being off it's axis was what caused the time jumps--and those started when BEN turned the wheel. 

Then again, if someone did knock it off the axis in or before the 70's, that could very well have been oft-mentioned "the incident" described by Asian Scientist of Many Names on the Dharma tapes...

HMMMMM....


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> Then again, if someone did knock it off the axis in or before the 70's, that could very well have been oft-mentioned "the incident" described by Asian Scientist of Many Names on the Dharma tapes...


I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

getreal said:


> I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.


I don't know about that--Asian Scientist of Many Names mentions the inident various times on DHARMA tapes, which doesn't jive with your theory since Dharma was wiped out by Ben. Besides I believe the tapes were made in the 70's, where as Ben's genocide takes place sometime in the late 80's early 90's depending on his age (he was 10 when got to the island in the 70s)


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.


No,the incident is an as yet unexplained event that happened, likely, at The Swan and likely involving the electromagnetic field. That is, if it was even real. It could have been a part of the psychological games.

ETA some reading material: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_incident


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## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

I think the Dharma tapes were made in the early 80's.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

getreal said:


> I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.


So in the orientation video Dr. Candlewax refers to the incident that will eventually wipe out himself and the rest of Dharma before it happens? Must be this linear thing again. 

I wonder who told Ben about Des and Penny? When the 6 were on her boat they agreed to never tell anyone, so it seems unlikely that anyone would tell Ben of all people. He may have known that they had a previous relationship when Desmond was in the hatch. Also, he didn't follow Des out of the church, so how did he find them? Since he called Jack from the marina, I assume he did.

Jack didn't know Locke had comitted suicide, but I thought I remembered that being discussed before?

How did Eloise get the suicide note? Was she working with Locke? Telling him what he had to do?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Jack didn't know Locke had comitted suicide, but I thought I remembered that being discussed before?


I had thought so too.

I figured there was enough detail in the newspaper clipping that he read. We didn't see the whole thing, but Jack did...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Newspaper_clipping


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.


Oh, and by the way... this was called "The Purge".


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tewcewl said:


> You're right. If the island flashes have stopped, it looks like our O6 folks were transported from 2008 to the 1960s. This will mean (based on three years' passing from when the O6 left and came back) that Sawyer and et al have been living in the 1960s for three years. My prediction is that, like we saw in "The Other 48 Days," we'll have an episode that details exactly what happened in those three years before Jin stumbles on Jack, Kate and Hurley.


Hey Losties... the Mets win the Series in 1969. Bet all your money on it.

Oh, and invest in Microsoft when you get the chance.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Hey Losties... the Mets win the Series in 1969. Bet all your money on it.
> 
> Oh, and invest in Microsoft when you get the chance.


No kidding. If I ever went back in time, that's all I would think about. Screw the island.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tivoboyjr said:


> No kidding. If I ever went back in time, that's all I would think about. Screw the island.


Perhaps that's how Ben and Widmore have seemingly unlimited funds?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yup seems like a pretty obvious reason for them to have such money.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Locke's perception of when he turned the wheel relative to Ben is completely irrelevant.
> 
> The wheel broke, sometime (relative to the wheel) AFTER that, someone fixed it.. Otherwise causality means absolutely nothing and no one's heart would beat in the wheel chamber.. Cause, effect.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm. Jeff, I think you've now mixed causality with linear time. Clearly, the time period Locke was in when he fixed the wheel was earlier than Ben's turn. But Ben caused Locke to have to fix it, as Ben apparently also caused the time jumps. Cause and effect are still fully in force. Your choice of perspective is the wheel itself and you disregard Locke's, which is your choice.

By your argument, the fact that Richard visits Locke at his birth, based on something that happened in the future (815 crashing on the island and all that followed, Richard giving Locke the compass) negates cause and effect. Does it? Besides, Christian blamed Locke for letting Ben turn the wheel and cause all the trouble. I can't top that for proof of cause and effect - don't believe me, believe Christian! 

I think the wheel was the center of all the time disturbances. When Locke was hanging by the rope in the well and the next time change came, you could see it coming up the shaft. Also, the time changes happened faster the closer to the Orchid they got. Plus, we now know that moving the island via the wheel was a temporal move - Ms Hawking as much as said so in the Lamppost. Does Time move in the wheel room, is it just slowed, or normal? - we have no idea yet. When we know what time Locke shows up as Bentham we'll have a better idea. Ben lost 10 months and we don't know exactly why yet.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> Oh, and by the way... this was called "The Purge".


Why do you say that?

Swan Video

The button was put into action after the incident. Why would they have to push a button because Ben gassed everyone?

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder who told Ben about Des and Penny? When the 6 were on her boat they agreed to never tell anyone, so it seems unlikely that anyone would tell Ben of all people. He may have known that they had a previous relationship when Desmond was in the hatch. Also, he didn't follow Des out of the church, so how did he find them? Since he called Jack from the marina, I assume he did.


Who says Ben knew about Desmond and Penny?


gchance said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> Swan Video
> 
> ...


He was saying that the killing of Dharma was called "The Purge" and was something entirely different than "The Incident."


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says Ben knew about Desmond and Penny?
> 
> He was saying that the killing of Dharma was called "The Purge" and was something entirely different than "The Incident."


Sorry, I misread that. 

Greg


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Why didn't they take a bunch of gear along with them? Food, rations, survival gear, etc. That would seem like the smart thing to do.


My wife and I were joking about how the first thing I'd do is pack a waterproof metal carry-on case full of medicines, and then pay extra to have a huge crate of toilet paper in the cargo hold. But maybe they couldn't do that because of the corny "replicate the original crash" thing. (They should have hired someone to not push a button at the right moment, too.) But it was all for naught, as would have been packing, because...


jkeegan said:


> I like the fact that there was the sound and flash while they were on the plane.. It implies that the plane didn't crash, they just disappeared from the plane when they were within the sphere of influence of the island and it jumped.


So Jack could have kept a carry-on full of medicine, but the toilet paper would still be going to Guam. Probably.


jkeegan said:


> Jack sure trusted that swimming hole was deep.


Anyone else reminded of the time he almost jumped off the bridge?


jeff125va said:


> I wonder what to make of Kate being the only one who was trying to appear inconspicuous at the airport and on the plane. Hurley was quite the opposite - "I'm Hugo Reyes, I bought all the tickets."


Given how famous the O6 have been, I was thinking, why didn't any of the stewardesses say, "Hey, I recognize you... and you... and, oh crap, you too... you know what, I'm suddenly feeling sick, I'm going to skip this flight!" But then Lapidus got to do that reaction for them. (I wonder if he spent enough time on the island to be affected by the flashes!)


uncdrew said:


> Yup. The way Hurley was clutching the guitar in the water (I doubt it would float him) I think it's important in upcoming episodes.


Depends on what's in it if it would float him. If it's a guitar, absolutely. (Fat people float easier than skinny people, not harder, you know.)


jradford said:


> Add "Kate being pregnant" onto the list of ways the O6 recreated the original flight. Kind of a timely tryst for Kate and Jack, don't you think?


When Kate, while dodging Jack's questions, started kissing him, my reaction was "Jack, you idiot! Kate suddenly and inexplicably amorous, doesn't that suggest she might be manipulating you?" Admittedly it's easier for me to think clearly about it watching than it would be for him with a handful of Kate, but even so, come on, it's like expecting Ben to be trustworthy!


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Was Hurley holding onto the guitar case the entire flight? Or did he grab it right before the flash? He had it when they appeared on the island, so if you were holding onto something it would presumably go with you.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

scottykempf said:


> Was Hurley holding onto the guitar case the entire flight? Or did he grab it right before the flash? He had it when they appeared on the island, so if you were holding onto something it would presumably go with you.


He was sitting right next to it. And considering his fragile mental state, not unreasonable to think he started hanging on to it when the flashes started.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> When Kate, while dodging Jack's questions, started kissing him, my reaction was "Jack, you idiot! Kate suddenly and inexplicably amorous, doesn't that suggest she might be manipulating you?" Admittedly it's easier for me to think clearly about it watching than it would be for him with a handful of Kate, but even so, come on, it's like expecting Ben to be trustworthy!


"If I have sex with Jack right now, I'll be pregnant on the plane! It's a perfect scheme!"

Nah. 

Greg


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Well, more like "someone came and took my baby. I want another. Knock me up, Jack!". 

Honestly I didn't think about her getting pregnant. Need to rewatch.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> When Kate, while dodging Jack's questions, started kissing him, my reaction was "Jack, you idiot! Kate suddenly and inexplicably amorous, doesn't that suggest she might be manipulating you?" Admittedly it's easier for me to think clearly about it watching than it would be for him with a handful of Kate, but even so, come on, it's like expecting Ben to be trustworthy!


C'mon, Jack was just comforting an old friend who was clearly having a very difficult personal time. Umm, he was working on his ... bedside manner, yeah that's it. Or maybe it was because Kate had a handful of Jack.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

getreal said:


> When Locke fell down the well during another time flash, he landed in the well/chamber BEFORE it had ever been dug, which also preceded the time that the Dharma Initiative built the Orchid Station. That was explained in the pop-ups in the repeat showing of last weeks episode just prior to airing this weeks episode.
> 
> Therefore, Locke turned the broken donkey wheel many years before Ben had turned it in 2004.


I always thought the Donkey Wheel was not in the same time zone as the Island surface. In other words it existed in the "now".


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Who says Ben knew about Desmond and Penny?


I was responding to the theory put out there that when Ben saw Desmond at the church, he saw it as an opportunity to find Penny and kill her as promised. Thus explaining his coming to the plane late and being beat or cut up somehow. It sounded good to me until I started to wonder if he would have known that Des was with Penny.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I was responding to the theory put out there that when Ben saw Desmond at the church, he saw it as an opportunity to find Penny and kill her as promised. Thus explaining his coming to the plane late and being beat or cut up somehow. It sounded good to me until I started to wonder if he would have known that Des was with Penny.


well Hawking seemed to know enough, even before Desmond went to the island! She could have told Ben.

I'd love to see a flashback where we see exactly how Hawking learned everything she needed to know for the ring encounter.


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't get the discussion about Kate being pregnant on the flight. If they slept together the night before the flight, she wouldn't really be pregnant yet, right?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

BrandonRe said:


> I don't get the discussion about Kate being pregnant on the flight. If they slept together the night before the flight, she wouldn't really be pregnant yet, right?


Did I miss something? When did this topic come up? I don't remember anything about Kate being pregnant..... confused!


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

BrandonRe said:


> I don't get the discussion about Kate being pregnant on the flight. If they slept together the night before the flight, she wouldn't really be pregnant yet, right?


It only takes one of ours to find one of theirs and depending on how fast they swim, yeah, she could be.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

rondotcom said:


> It only takes one of ours to find one of theirs and depending on how fast they swim, yeah, she could be.


Egg could be fertilized, but probably not implanted, which I understand is the medical definition of pregnancy. IANAD


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

gchance said:


> "If I have sex with Jack right now, I'll be pregnant on the plane! It's a perfect scheme!"


I was thinking more like, "Why doesn't she want me to ask that question, so much she's willing to go to these lengths to shut me up?" If you guys could take your eyes off her scrawny ribs long enough you'd see what I mean.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> That's interesting, and certainly possible, but how would you explain it? Were they just zapped out of the air and onto the plane? I can't believe Sun or Kate would knowingly let them on. I figured Kate was there to protect Aaron somehow.


I think that some circumstance will come up that will cause the babies to be on the flight and Kate and Sun don't know. They might have tried to get in touch with them but couldn't. Maybe someone is sick so the caretaker has to take a sudden flight to get somewhere. Because they are trying to get there fast, they wind up on a flight that goes through Guam to get there. Something like that. We know Ben is a master at making things happen. I already believe many were on the flight because of things Ben did that we haven't seen yet. Like causing Sayid to be arrested.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Maybe the reason that the writers have her there in his bed is they don't want us thinking right now that she's going back to the island for Sawyer.. It'll be interesting to see her flashback as well as Hurley's (if we even see one)


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Ok....too deep into the thread....can't read anymore.....sorry if this is a smeek.....

One person noted that 316 looks like 815. Well, 316 is (*108**3) - *8*.

Great episode.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

BrandonRe said:


> I don't get the discussion about Kate being pregnant on the flight. If they slept together the night before the flight, she wouldn't really be pregnant yet, right?





rondotcom said:


> It only takes one of ours to find one of theirs and depending on how fast they swim, yeah, she could be.





mqpickles said:


> Egg could be fertilized, but probably not implanted, which I understand is the medical definition of pregnancy. IANAD


I think this is a great point because "Where does a pregnancy begin?" or "Where does life begin?" is kind of a quintessential "LOST"-type question. At some point it becomes a "science vs. faith" discussion and it is up to each individual to decide what they believe. So is Kate pregnant? My wild speculation is that what is most important is that she believes she is.

But I do think Kate is really pregnant. I think everyone on flight 316 is playing the proxy for someone who was on 815. Sayid is Kate, Hurley is Charlie, Kate is Claire, Ben is Hurley, Jack is Locke, Locke is Christian, and Sun is ???... Somebody help me out here&#8230; One other thing that was bugging me about the flight was, where's Walt and why isn't he on flight 316?

I think that when Jack reads Locke's note is the moment he allows himself to believe, to be a "man of faith" and take on the Locke role; and coincidently right after that they are transported to the island.

I agree with the theory that 316 did crash but that O5 + Ben and Frank flashed to the time when the other 815 survivors are while the rest of 316 crashed in 2008 and took up residence in the camp on the beach, ended up fighting the Others just like the 815ers, which led to them chasing Locke's group in the out-rigger.

Desmond rules. I think his little speech to Jack is going to turn out to be one of those things that is true in ways that aren't even understood or intended at the time it was said.

I think Ben definitely went to kill Penny and whether or not he was successful, Desmond gave him a beat down and the only thing that is going to get Desmond back to the island is the drive to finish the job and kill Ben - ironically putting Charles Widmore and Desmond Hume on the same side.

The coolest idea I've read about Grand-dad Ray, is that Ray is Jack, helping his younger self by giving him what he knows he needs. That would mean, of course, that Kate is pregnant with Christian Sheppard! Buahahahahaha  I thought it was a cool idea, though.

I am starting to think that depite what the producers have said about avoiding paradoxes; the show is all about these chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. Like the rat who ran the maze without Daniel ever teaching him to run it, the compass that Locke and Richard give to each other, and I think it will turn out that Hurley does end up reading the numbers, which Leonard will hear and tell Hurley about in the instituiton. I'm even coming back around to my original theory from the first time I saw it; that is Jack is the Adam skeleton, the black and white stones being another impossible paradoxical object.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> I think this is a great point because "Where does a pregnancy begin?" or "Where does life begin?" is kind of a quintessential "LOST"-type question.


Especially since pregnancy has been such a major story element in the series, starting with Claire & Rousseau, then ramping up with Juliet and the Others, then Sun (not forgetting, of course, Ben's unfortunate begetting). I don't think Jack & Kate's night of passion is a coincidence in this light, and I suspect there's a lot more to be said on the topic over the final season and a half.


latrobe7 said:


> I am starting to think that depite what the producers have said about avoiding paradoxes; the show is all about these chicken-or-the-egg paradoxes. Like the rat who ran the maze without Daniel ever teaching him to run it, the compass that Locke and Richard give to each other, and I think it will turn out that Hurley does end up reading the numbers, which Leonard will hear and tell Hurley about in the instituiton. I'm even coming back around to my original theory from the first time I saw it; that is Jack is the Adam skeleton, the black and white stones being another impossible paradoxical object.


Those aren't paradoxes. Killing your grandfather before your father is born is a paradox. Having sex with your grandmother and spawning your father may be strange and disturbing, but there's nothing the least bit paradoxical about it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> According to the previews for next week:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



I think the unexplained actions during this episode will be explained by future episodes, not the next one. The next one seems to be about what happened to Locke after he turned the wheel, ultimately resulting in him committing suicide. I think most, if not all, of the off-island scenes from the next episode will take place before Jack told Kate they should never have left the island.

So while there might be some things Locke says to the Losties that we might tie to actions they did in _316_, I don't think anything shown would have spoiled anything.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Those aren't paradoxes. Killing your grandfather before your father is born is a paradox. Having sex with your grandmother and spawning your father may be strange and disturbing, but there's nothing the least bit paradoxical about it.


OK, you're right; I was using "paradox" to describe "things that couldn't exist without time travel" - is there a word for that?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Having sex with your grandmother and spawning your father may be strange and disturbing, but there's nothing the least bit paradoxical about it.


Why not? How did you exist before you became your own grandfather? Was someone else your grandfather before that, and if so, did your genetic makeup change at the point when you impregnated your own grandmother? But now your father's genetics are going to be genetics he inherited from you but you weren't created with that dna because you are your own grandfather and that original guy isn't your grandfather anymore. I don't get how it isn't a paradox.

Typing that out exhausted my brain so apologies in advance if it doesn't make much sense.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Those aren't paradoxes. Killing your grandfather before your father is born is a paradox. Having sex with your grandmother and spawning your father may be strange and disturbing, but there's nothing the least bit paradoxical about it.


In fact, that's pretty close to defining closed-loop paradoxes (this one is either the predestination paradox or an ontological paradox; I can never remember the exact distinction between the two.)


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> In fact, that's pretty close to defining closed-loop paradoxes (this one is either the predestination paradox or an ontological paradox; I can never remember the exact distinction between the two.)


I don't know the names of any certain types of paradoxes, but when I tried to think about the genetic makeup of my father in this scenario, I think I hit infinite recursion and stack overflow.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> In fact, that's pretty close to defining closed-loop paradoxes (this one is either the predestination paradox or an ontological paradox; I can never remember the exact distinction between the two.)


But there's still nothing paradoxical about it, unless something interrupts the process (e.g., you knock up your grandmother then somebody stops you from traveling back in time).

It only _seems _like a paradox if somebody can't wrap their minds around the concept of time travel.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there's still nothing paradoxical about it, unless something interrupts the process (e.g., you knock up your grandmother then somebody stops you from traveling back in time).
> 
> It only _seems _like a paradox if somebody can't wrap their minds around the concept of time travel.


How were you ever conceived in the first place if you are your own grandfather? Please try to explain this to me and I will try to wrap my brain around it.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there's still nothing paradoxical about it, unless something interrupts the process (e.g., you knock up your grandmother then somebody stops you from traveling back in time).
> 
> It only _seems _like a paradox if somebody can't wrap their minds around the concept of time travel.


This is what I don't get--how is you going back in time and knocking up your grandmother, leading to your own eventual birth, not a paradox in itself? My view of time travel (Lost aside) is that there is an order of events so in this case, you can't exist unless you go back in time in knock up your grandmother, which wouldn't happened before you time traveled, so how did you exist in the first place?

How do people no recognize that as a paradox? The way I see it going back in time and becoming your own grandparents is a total paradox. This is the case with Terminator. John Connor send Kyle Reese back in time with a picture of his mother. Reese and Sarah Connor conceive John Connor. Reese dies, sarah goes to Mexico and gets the picture taken that John gave to Kyle in the future.

So if John Connor wouldn't have existed without sending Kyle Reese back, then how did the future John Connor exist in the first place? GIANT PARADOX.


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

mrdazzo7 said:


> This is what I don't get--how is you going back in time and knocking up your grandmother, leading to your own eventual birth, not a paradox in itself? My view of time travel is that there is an order of events so in this case, you can't exist unless you go back in time in knock up your grandmother, which wouldn't happened before you time traveled, so how did you exist in the first place.
> 
> How do people no recognize that as a paradox? The way I see it going back in time and becoming your own grandparents is a total paradox. This is the case with Terminator. John Connor send Kyle Reese back in time with a picture of his mother. Reese and Sarah Connor conceive John Connor. Reese dies, sarah goes to Mexico and gets the picture taken that John gave to Kyle in the future.
> 
> So if John Connor wouldn't have existed without sending Kyle Reese back, then how did the future John Connor exist in the first place? GIANT PARADOX.


I agree.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there's still nothing paradoxical about it, unless something interrupts the process (e.g., you knock up your grandmother then somebody stops you from traveling back in time).


That's a closed-loop paradox. It only works if you assume predestination (i.e. the events in the loop must occur exactly as they occur, i.e. "it just always happened that way"), which may very well be exactly what the writers are doing, but it's still a flavor of paradox. It's just not a variety of temporal paradox that results in multiple timelines.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

stalemate said:


> I agree.


I was about to agree to your post too, lol.

This is what drives me nuts about Lost--I don't get how people LIKE this theory that "what happens has ALWAYS happened"... It's no nonsensical to me. I understand the theory (and yes, it's still a theory) but it's so illogical to me because I conceive time linearly, regardless of how they're trying to sell it.

I personally still have my own theor about the island's time travel but instead of countless posts telling me how wrong I am, I'll just wait it out. The funny thing is that people are telling me I'm wrong like they know for a fact. Last time I checked the show or the producers haven't confirmed with 100% certainty what they're doing. I think it's funny...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> So if John Connor wouldn't have existed without sending Kyle Reese back, then how did the future John Connor exist in the first place? GIANT PARADOX.


It would only be a paradox if Kyle WASN'T sent back. But he DID go back, and thus there's no paradox. Everything falls neatly into place.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I was about to agree to your post too, lol.
> 
> This is what drives me nuts about Lost--I don't get how people LIKE this theory that "what happens has ALWAYS happened"... It's no nonsensical to me. I understand the theory (and yes, it's still a theory) but it's so illogical to me because I conceive time linearly, regardless of how they're trying to sell it.
> 
> I personally still have my own theor about the island's time travel but instead of countless posts telling me how wrong I am, I'll just wait it out. The funny thing is that people are telling me I'm wrong like they know for a fact. Last time I checked the show or the producers haven't confirmed with 100% certainty what they're doing. I think it's funny...


Dude, you're so absolute totally wrong!!! I say that with 100% certainty, and I mock your position! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

There, I hope that helped your martyrdom complex, since I've read every post from every Lost thread here for about 4 years and I don't remember anyone actually attacking your ideas as much as you claim. So now you can say it as much as you want. You're welcome.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> That's a closed-loop paradox.


No, it's not. It's only a paradox if something doesn't exist outside the loop. (The example of the guy who gives his earlier self plans for a time machine is a real paradox, since the plans don't come from anywhere.)

In this case, the loop isn't closed; it starts in the past, moves forward, loops back, then continues into the future.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> Dude, you're so absolute totally wrong!!! I say that with 100% certainty, and I mock your position! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
> 
> There, I hope that helped your martyrdom complex, since I've read every post from every Lost thread here for about 4 years and I don't remember anyone actually attacking your ideas as much as you claim. So now you can say it as much as you want. You're welcome.


Lol, I was referring more to the IMDB board... then again I should expect anything else from those lunatics.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It would only be a paradox if Kyle WASN'T sent back. But he DID go back, and thus there's no paradox. Everything falls neatly into place.


So how did John Connor exist in the future TO send Kyle back, if he hadn't sent Kyle back yet?


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## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it's not. It's only a paradox if something doesn't exist outside the loop. (The example of the guy who gives his earlier self plans for a time machine is a real paradox, since the plans don't come from anywhere.)
> 
> In this case, the loop isn't closed; it starts in the past, moves forward, loops back, then continues into the future.


I think I get what you are saying here, and forgive me for being crude, but in the example of you impregnating your own grandmother...where does the sperm that impregnated her "come from." (wow, the wording here is rather unfortunate) Doesn't the sperm there play the same role as the plans in the time machine example? What am I missing?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it's not. It's only a paradox if something doesn't exist outside the loop. (The example of the guy who gives his earlier self plans for a time machine is a real paradox, since the plans don't come from anywhere.)


Well, now that's what I mean. Where did the compass come from if Richard gave it to Locke and Locke gave it to Richard? How did the rat learn the maze if Daniel never taught her?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So as to the two radically different ways of telling time travel stories, one where you can change things from what they were to something else, and ones where time travel itself is part of history and you're always seeing the absolute ultimate end result of everything any second you look at it, I think they tend to lend themselves to different genres.

Back to the Future, for instance, where Marty can want a new truck and end up changing his former life to get it, has more of a feel-good happy ending quality to it (although they don't all have to be happy for sure.. The Butterfly Effect has some good examples).

...but the "this is the way it's always been" movies tend more towards a drama feel, usually because someone willl try to do something to improve their lives by fixing something they knew of, but ultimately fail (or worse, end up actually causing it).

With some possible exceptions around the fringe (Desmons going to the ring shop maybe?), which I still believe will be explained away such that they're not even changes, Lost has been the latter, and the latter fits the story better. Plus, well, ok I'll spoiler it despite the anger that usually causes:

Podcast-info spoiler from long ago:


Spoiler



...the producers (Damon & Carlton) have said REPEATEDLY how much they despise cheap easy time travel writing that let's you change events you've seen. It's been in DVD commentaries, podcasts, etc many times, so much so that even I am angry that I spoiler tagged this!)



Plus, none of this paradox discussion (what falls under the Webster's definition of paradox) even matters, because they're not using that term in the show. What matters is if you can actually change things that happened at time x to be something different at time x (multiple versions of 1/25/2004 @ 5:14pm).

Isn't the fact that we saw Richard at Locke's maternity ward looking at infant Locke, a whole season before Locke tells Richard to come see him be born, enough to convince *everyone* that the writers are saying that anything we *will* see them do in the past must be compatible with what we've already seen?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, now that's what I mean. Where did the compass come from if Richard gave it to Locke and Locke gave it to Richard? How did the rat learn the maze if Daniel never taught her?


A) They're two different compasses (at least according to the vidcaps). B) Daniel DID teach her. Then, her consciousness went back into the past and she ran the maze.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A) They're two different compasses (at least according to the vidcaps). B) Daniel DID teach her. Then, her consciousness went back into the past and she ran the maze.


Yes, two compasses. I also have a much easier time accepting the "consciousness going back and forth through time" idea (which IS inventive) then accepting the idea that people were "always" in time periods that occured before they were even born, and that time is not linear it's just "one unit" or whatever. Just me though.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, now that's what I mean. Where did the compass come from if Richard gave it to Locke and Locke gave it to Richard? How did the rat learn the maze if Daniel never taught her?


Daniel DID teach the rat, while Desmond was "away" in the future, passed out on Daniel's couch in 199x at Oxford. And as had been said before, the compass may not be the same (didn't we see definitively that it wasn't? Someone posted pics of all 3 compasses we saw and all three were different.. One had a (w for west? Or was it e for east?) instead of an o, and then the two that still looked similar had a lanyard on it in the wrong place or something? It was a few weeks ago.

Richard in 1950 has this guy appear out of nowhere who says his name is John Locke. This John gives him a compass, which is supposed to convince Richard that this guy is legit. Having seen the whole epiosode now, why should that make Richard in 1950 think he's legit? The closest and only guess so far is that the usual screening process that they do to find their new leader always contains a compass as one of the objects.

John says when he'll be born (2 years from then), and says to come look him up. He does, in the maternity ward. Then like 7-10 years later(?) he comes to young Locke and gives him the standard test that he's done before, with with the same compass he's been administering these tests with for hundreds of years, or more likely he goes out and buys new stuff every once in a while (like the comic book).. (or, gets them from the last leader's possessions, since he's looking for the reincarnation of the last guy).

Or, he could even use the same compass Locke gave him 2 years ago, since he doesn't even let John keep it.

John fails the test, Richard says this was a waste of his time, and leaves.

Like THIRTY YEARS PASS. That's a hell of a long time to keep the thing, not lose it, not acquire another.. (plus, he has *two* compasses that whole time, the one Locke gave him and the one he'd had before that made a compass a meaningful "proof" that this was a messge from a future Richard).

Then you meet Locke again, help him w/Sawyer's file so kidney-daddy can die, later see a white flash in the sky, and this Locke guy disappears (just like you saw back in 1950).

Remembering Locke say that you someday help him at this tree in the rain and give him a compass, you now go to that tree and find him there. You think "hey, this is where I give Locke a compass to give old me since old me knows we use a compass in the look-for-our-reincarnated-leader test.. (even better if their current leader in 1950 (Widmore?) uses a compass all the time, and the test is previous-leader specific). Ok, so a compass will convey the message. *does it matter if it's the same compass or not? No! There's no reason for Richard to take this simple message (a compass) that he received in 1950 and keep it for FIFTY PLUS YEARS just to give the same compass back to Locke someday.

It's most likely a different compass (again, the pictures seemed to show that the prop was different), and Daniel indicated that he was going to train Eloisr the rat (and if there was anyone who'd follow through on that, it's be him).


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> A) They're two different compasses (at least according to the vidcaps). B) Daniel DID teach her. Then, her consciousness went back into the past and she ran the maze.


A) OK, I had not look at the screen-caps closely; but if it's a random compass why did Richard give it to Locke? B) So the rat immediately forgot how to run the maze so that Daniel could teach it?

Neither issue has been conclusively resolved, safe to say we have different interpretations.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Doh, smeek. Typing on the iPhone is a bit slower than my laptop, but far more convenient.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, it's not. It's only a paradox if something doesn't exist outside the loop. (The example of the guy who gives his earlier self plans for a time machine is a real paradox, since the plans don't come from anywhere.)


There's still a closed causal loop in the "I'm my own grandpa" example, which is what we started off discussing. In the time machine case you cite, the time machine is information that can't exist without the loop. In this case, the grandfather/grandson can't exist without the loop. Both are self-consistent causal loops that cause information (time machine plans, grandpa/grandson's genes, whatever) to be spawned from nowhere.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> snip /Rat and compass rationale.


Like I said, I have a different view of these events.

Daniel said he was going to teach Eloise to run the maze "in an hour"; then Desmond flashes away for 75 minutes, according to Daniel. By that time Eloise's brain has fried and she is dead, he doesn't mention training her to run the maze.

Richard did not seem particularly impressed by the compass in 1954; but if he did think something was special, I don't think keeping it for a whopping 50 years would be a big deal to Richard Alpert.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> So as to the two radically different ways of telling time travel stories, one where you can change things from what they were to something else, and ones where time travel itself is part of history and you're always seeing the absolute ultimate end result of everything any second you look at it, I think they tend to lend themselves to different genres.


Both views can be reconciled if you consider Rosincrans' Discussions on Time Travel, section 12b.



> Any closed system, or universe, that experiences a time travel incident, will experience an infinite set of timeline iterations. These iterations will continue indefinitely until the system reaches a state of equilibrium. This equilibrium will result in a final timeline that either has no time travel incidents, or one in which the time travel incidents have no effect on the continuing timeline.


Let's say Sawyer keeps Kate from getting on the helicopter. When Ben turns the wheel, she flashes back with the rest. Now she decides to keep Jack from getting on the helicopter. Jack flashes back and makes another change. The island goes through infinite iterations until either (a) The wheel is never turned or (b) The people flashing back don't make any changes to the previous timeline.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Smeeked, but I'll sum up the key point: Uncreated data is just as paradoxical as uncreated bits. Consider the paradox in Douglas Adams about the Lays of the Long Land, for instance. Genetic code is just a poem of a different sort: it's bits.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> I agree, but to be devil's advocate, 1/4 of the genes you carry are copies of ones your grandfather had, so in a way it's a paradox like the uncreated compass. Not exactly like, since it's a copy. It'd be more like the same paradox of having your grandfather tell you, "memorize this phrase", and then you telling it to him, too. Uncreated data instead of uncreated bits, but still uncreated.


Yes, I now realize that was a bad example.

But the point remains...a time loop does not automatically make a paradox.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Whether you believe it to be a paradox or not, there is one piece of info that proves predestination is on tap here: Richard told Locke after he fixed his bullet wound that the next time they met, Richard wouldn't know him. So Richard remembered the encounter back in 1954, knows it was the first time they met, and that *the encounter had already happened*.

Locke did not go back in time and change things; he went back in time to do what (from a straight linear perspective) he had already done. I know this word was used in initial previews, and some may have missed it but it's important: Destiny. They beat us over the head with it. Few people seemed to have trouble with the idea (a wrong one I think, but stick with me) that the buried H-bomb wound up being what was under the Swan hatch. Yet, the idea came from time traveler Faraday.

I don't happen to believe it's a paradox. And since no one yet (to our knowledge) has actually had sex with their grandmother, there's nothing to get all eeeewww about. Yet.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> OK, you're right; I was using "paradox" to describe "things that couldn't exist without time travel" - is there a word for that?


Turns out some people call it a "jinn":



> A time-machine jinn is a theoretical beast created out of nothing by a consistent time-travel loop.


link


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the point remains...a time loop does not automatically make a paradox.


This is true. It's _causal_ loops that are the problem.

Sawyer seeing Kate help Claire give birth in the jungle, while being unobserved himself, for example, certainly isn't a paradox (at least not based on what we've seen so far.)

To be fair to the writers, if one starts with the assumption that people have a destiny, the predestination paradox ceases to be a paradox. I don't really think it hurts the storytelling at all, at least; it's not a too-convenient cheat like allowing the rewriting of history.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think that some circumstance will come up that will cause the babies to be on the flight and Kate and Sun don't know.


They're in the guitar case.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

3D said:


> They're in the guitar case.


I was thinking pet carriers in the cargo hold.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, I now realize that was a bad example.
> 
> But the point remains...a time loop does not automatically make a paradox.


"Paradox" is not some precisely defined scientific term. But an uncreated piece of information is a violation of causation just as much as an uncreated object is, and if "violation of causation" isn't what you mean by "paradox", then we're just quibbling semantics. Killing your grandfather is a paradox because it violates cause and effect; giving your younger self something you got from your older self (whether that's a widget or a poem) also violates cause and effect.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> To be fair to the writers, if one starts with the assumption that people have a destiny, the predestination paradox ceases to be a paradox.


Which is why I don't really consider it a paradox. There are two types of scenarios typically considered to be paradoxes. One, which I'll call a strong paradox, is an actual contradiction of events. The other, which I'll call a weak paradox, is simply a contradiction of our limited view of reality.

The problem is that time travel in and of itself is a weak paradox. We are used to time flowing in one direction, and have neither experienced nor observed any other reality.

Let's consider the different possible time travel scenarios:

*The past can be changed, altering the future*

If this is allowed, then strong paradoxes can be created because it would be possible to go back in time and kill your own grandfather.

*The past cannot be changed*

In a world where both this is true and time travel is possible, all events are fixed. Since part of your future can be in someone else's past at the same time as part of your past can be in their future, the only way the past can be fixed is if the future is as well.

But in a world where events are fixed, there is nothing paradoxical about information that seemingly comes from nowhere. This is because information is an illusion created by our perception of time and order in the universe. A thought popping into your head is no different than your future self giving your past self that thought because you didn't really "think" it in either case. Events simply occurred such that the thought existed.

However, a world where we have no choice but to follow a predestined path seems contradictory to our experience, and so we call this a paradox.

*The past can be changed, but the future can't be altered*

Okay, but what about a compromise? The past can be changed, but only to the extent that the future is not affected? The problem is that this is completely nonsensical. First of all, whose future are we talking about? Is it simply the time traveler's future? If so, then what magical force prevents the time traveler from altering anything that he knows about, while allowing him to change everything else?

On the other hand, if it's everybody's future, then how do we know that the past was changed? We have no idea what the "original" event was, so how can we say anything different happened? For all intents and purposes, this "past" event was actually in the future, since up until the time traveler encountered it, it had no other effect on the universe.

In the former scenario, that of the time traveler only being prevented from altering his own future, the force that prevents him from doing so comes from nowhere. You can think of this force as "anti-information" that annihilates all possible information that contradicts information already known. But for the same reason that information coming from nowhere is considered a paradox, so too is anti-information.

The latter scenario basically reduces to the scenario where the past cannot be changed, and is considered paradoxical for the same reasons.

*Timeline branching and multiverses*

So if both the past changing and not changing are considered paradoxes, then can there be any other possibilities? What if going back in time caused the timeline to branch? Ah ha! No more paradoxes! Killing your own grandfather is not a problem because you don't need to exist in the alternate timeline.

The problem comes, however, when one asks, "What happened to the original timeline?" If the original timeline disappeared when the alternate was created, then you would have come from a timeline that didn't exist, and thus would have been information created from nowhere, creating a paradox.

Okay, so we'll say the original timeline still exists along with the alternate one. But now we have to question whether we are really time traveling. Yes, we are technically traveling to a different time. But by that definition we are technically all time traveling right now simply by existing.

What we really mean when we talk about time travel is traveling to our past. But as soon as the timeline branches we are no longer in our past. I would consider this to be "time jumping" as opposed to time traveling. We are jumping to a different space-time, but since it is not part of our own, we are not really time traveling in the traditional sense.

This is effectively no different than if we traveled to another galaxy, and found a solar system identical to our own in which the Earth there had evolved in exactly the same way, except X number of years behind us, up until our arrival. This is why all paradoxes are eliminated; we are really traveling to new worlds. Our future is still our future, and our past is still our past.

For the same reason, the idea of "time traveling" to multiverses, where one does not really go into one's past, but travels to a parallel universe that is some amount of time behind one's own, also has no paradoxes. Once again, we are technically just visiting worlds that, while errily similar to our own, are different.

The problem with considering weak paradoxes in regards to time travel is that they paradoxically make paradoxes completely meaningless. Since everything involved in time traveling to one's past is at least a weak paradox, the only paradoxes that really have meaning are the strong ones. If you are considering time travel as a possibility, then you must accept that weak paradoxes are allowed, and by accepting that weak paradoxes are allowed, you have rendered them no longer paradoxes.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I stopped at "the past can be changed but the future can not be altered".

I stopped because what came to mind was the passengers in the plane and how they all seemed to be people they weren't the first time around but that the originals were represented in some fashion. That doesn't sound right but I know it has been discussed. Hurley with the guitar case instead of Charlie, a different pregnant woman, Sayid in handcuffs instead of Kate, etc.

Changing the past, but not altering the future - they all get to the island. 

Maybe Desmond doesn't need to get back on the plane because he came to the island in a different way.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

betts4 said:


> Maybe Desmond doesn't need to get back on the plane because he came to the island in a different way.


Good point. He does have a boat. And if his wife (and perhaps kid) were killed, like in the past, he would have nothing to lose.

Although, perhaps a less gruesome set of events involved Charles Widmore swooping in, and saving Penny from Ben's attack. Then, after taking them into hiding before Desmond could return, he told Desmond that the only way he would feel safe allowing Penny to be with him would be if Ben was dead.

Thus, like before, Desmond had lost Penny, and hoped to gain Charles' approval by sailing around the world.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Nice


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

getreal said:


> I think it has been established that "the incident" refers to when the Others wiped out the Dharma Initiative in that mass gassing genocide -- all thanks to Benjamin Linus.





mrdazzo7 said:


> I don't know about that--Asian Scientist of Many Names mentions the inident various times on DHARMA tapes, which doesn't jive with your theory since Dharma was wiped out by Ben. Besides I believe the tapes were made in the 70's, where as Ben's genocide takes place sometime in the late 80's early 90's depending on his age (he was 10 when got to the island in the 70s)





Mike Farrington said:


> No,the incident is an as yet unexplained event that happened, likely, at The Swan and likely involving the electromagnetic field. That is, if it was even real. It could have been a part of the psychological games.
> 
> ETA some reading material: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_incident





Mike Farrington said:


> Oh, and by the way... this was called "The Purge".


Thanks for refreshing my fading memory. I stand corrected.  :up:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I think that some circumstance will come up that will cause the babies to be on the flight and Kate and Sun don't know. They might have tried to get in touch with them but couldn't. Maybe someone is sick so the caretaker has to take a sudden flight to get somewhere. Because they are trying to get there fast, they wind up on a flight that goes through Guam to get there. Something like that. We know Ben is a master at making things happen. I already believe many were on the flight because of things Ben did that we haven't seen yet. Like causing Sayid to be arrested.


I don't think we're going to see the kids for the very simple reason that including them in the filming would be incredibly difficult from a logistical standpoint. We just have to assume that both Aaron and Ji Yeon are safe with other people off the Island and will remain there, because trying to film the story that they've got planned with small children would be too difficult.


jkeegan said:


> Isn't the fact that we saw Richard at Locke's maternity ward looking at infant Locke, a whole season before Locke tells Richard to come see him be born, enough to convince *everyone* that the writers are saying that anything we *will* see them do in the past must be compatible with what we've already seen?


This.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think we're going to see the kids for the very simple reason that including them in the filming would be incredibly difficult from a logistical standpoint. We just have to assume that both Aaron and Ji Yeon are safe with other people off the Island and will remain there, because trying to film the story that they've got planned with small children would be too difficult.


I can buy that for Ji Yeon. Though, the emotion of the decision to leave her behind should be something we eventually see Sun deal with.

As for Aaron, I don't think we can assume that, what with Kate's "don't ever ask me about Aaron" speech. They want us to keep thinking about what happened to him. They don't seem to want us to assume he's fine, or they would have told us he's fine.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

If Aaron is on the plane, he would be Walt's proxy, wouldn't he?

Like Walt, his mother's dead (or seems to be), and he's in the care of someone who's not a blood relative.

And wouldn't it be wild if he were somehow flying with his biological father (the artist, like Walt's father)?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Speaking of proxies, wonder who (or what) took the place of Vincent on Flight 316?


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Delta13 said:


> Speaking of proxies, wonder who (or what) took the place of Vincent on Flight 316?


I found that whole "proxy" idea to be pretty stupid. I guess that's the only reason the writers could come up with to explain why they "all had to go back" but the idea that they had to recreate the circumstances of the first crash as best as possible just felt ridiculous to me. Like what is threshold of original circumstances that need to be duplicated in order for it to work? If Sun didn't go, would the plan have failed? Or if Locke didn't have CHRISTIANS SHOES ON? Come on now...

It would have been better if they just left it at "you have to be on this flight cause it will be flying over the island" but again, I guess that wouldn't explain the entire arc of them all having to go.


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

Dude!

First you have a problem with Time Travel and now you have a problem with Proxies...

SOMEBODY didn't get their DHARMA kool-aid!


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Trent Bates said:


> Dude!
> 
> First you have a problem with Time Travel and now you have a problem with Proxies...
> 
> SOMEBODY didn't get their DHARMA kool-aid!


lol... I'm allowed to point out what I don't like... dont be like the fanboys on IMBD that put out a contract on your life for speaking remotely critical of "their" Lost...hahah.

I thought the whole point of discussion boards was to discuss EVERY aspect of a show, good and bad...not just pour undying praise upon it...no?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I thought it was pretty clear that Master Bates was mocking Lost apologists, not you, or at the very least Lost apologists in addition to you. But I found it unambiguous that he was mocking Lost apologists.

I mean, really, who would drink Dharma Kool-Aid? That stuff is VILE!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Speakng of this proxy business, I wonder if Ben was ingesting an illicit substance in the bathroom.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I found that whole "proxy" idea to be pretty stupid. I guess that's the only reason the writers could come up with to explain why they "all had to go back" but the idea that they had to recreate the circumstances of the first crash as best as possible just felt ridiculous to me.


Well, we don't know for sure that the "re-create the circumstances" reason was really true. Perhaps they were healed by exotic matter during the first crash, and by leaving the island they took some of that matter with them, causing an imbalance in the island. Because the island extracted exotic matter and regular matter from nothingness, it needed their regular matter there to balance out the exotic.

Perhaps the reason they were told to re-create the circumstances was because their consciousness' needed to be tuned at some quantum level to getting back to the island. Or maybe some other game was being played.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Seeing Ellie as a teenager helped in that it showed us that Hawking is just a person, not some magical all-knowing agent of the universe. Hell, she hangs around churches and monestaries, how all-knowing can she actually be? (Jeff ducks)

I think that that was her best guess as to how to get them back. I think she expected 316 to crash onto the island, and that the O6 would somehow survive, just like when 815 crashed. I don't think she knew that flashes would take them off the plane safely, if she even knew about the flashes.

My guess is that's the explanation for her "reproduce as much of the crash as possible" line. Maybe we'll see a scene where Locke repeats to her what Christian said, that they all have to come back, and she gets confused by that, and comes up with this idea.

On the other hand, maybe she does know more and that's her story for the O6 since she doesn't want to tell them the real reason that they all go back - because she remembers fighting all of them back when the Hostiles attacked the Dharma Initiative in the 70s, so they need to go back.

Either way, my guess/hope is that the "recreate the circumstances of the crash" thing is just a story.

Ooh, one last guess.. Maybe the smoke monster is a complicated machine that can process information and make rudimentary decisions, but isn't completely smart. Maybe IT really caused the takedown of 815 (and was merely awoken by Desmond's lack-of-button-pushing incident), and Hawking or someone is aware of this, and she's trying to trick the smoke monster into doing it again because she doesn't know exactly what piece made the smoke monster grab it.

A. Some thought they saw the smoke monster in the sky when the tail section landed. (although, that security fence seems to indicate it can't really fly)
B. Her trying to trick a complicated machine to find what patterns it will choose from is a bit like playing chess against a computer, which we already saw Locke doing in Patchy's house

Wow, that post was all over the place


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I thought the whole point of discussion boards was to discuss EVERY aspect of a show, good and bad...not just pour undying praise upon it...no?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that Master Bates was mocking Lost apologists, not you, or at the very least Lost apologists in addition to you. But I found it unambiguous that he was mocking Lost apologists.


Apparently my "" at the end wasn't big enough. 

What I'm really trying to say is that mrdazzo7 is letting too much get in the way of his enjoyment of the show. IMO. 
I think he's trying to attribute too much common science to a show that's about wilder concepts.

But I'm certainly not mocking Lost fans OR Lost haters. It was just a joke.

Personally, I'm enjoying the time-manipulation aspect and look forward to seeing how they flesh it out further. This show would be less exciting to me without the time traveling!

Rob, Nobody has really called me that since 8th grade.  And it was only once...


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> Speakng of this proxy business, I wonder if Ben was ingesting an illicit substance in the bathroom.


Non-prescribed Oxycodone, no doubt.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

mrdazzo7 said:


> I found that whole "proxy" idea to be pretty stupid. I guess that's the only reason the writers could come up with to explain why they "all had to go back" but the idea that they had to recreate the circumstances of the first crash as best as possible just felt ridiculous to me. Like what is threshold of original circumstances that need to be duplicated in order for it to work? If Sun didn't go, would the plan have failed? Or if Locke didn't have CHRISTIANS SHOES ON? Come on now...
> 
> It would have been better if they just left it at "you have to be on this flight cause it will be flying over the island" but again, I guess that wouldn't explain the entire arc of them all having to go.


"I wish you would have believed me."

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  But for all of the sci-fi and techy stuff going on, the real heart of the show is about faith. In this case, as in a leap of.

And Jeff was all over the map in his post, and I'm still wondering about the Vincent-proxy.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Delta13 said:


> And Jeff was all over the map in his post . . .


You say that like it's something new.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey I'm proud of that, and I called it out myself in my post! 

One more day until Lost..

..Jeff


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Trent Bates said:


> What I'm really trying to say is that mrdazzo7 is letting too much get in the way of his enjoyment of the show. IMO.
> I think he's trying to attribute too much common science to a show that's about wilder concepts.


I know, I wasn't really mad about it. I can see where you think I'm letting the time travel get in the way, which isn't necessarily the case. I'm a screenwriter at heart and I *always* kind of fully invest in whatever shows I'm watching, so if there's a storyline or character or aspect that I don't like for whatever reason, it doesn't necessarily mean my enjoyment is being diminished, I just like discussing it and seeing what other people think.

And I may have mentioned it before but I personally just don't like time travel stories because I feel that they're ALWAYS open to problems. Think Heroes was what ruined it for me. I like what lost is doing for the most part, but I think I like the show a lot more with out it.

To each his own!!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Yeah Heroes is practically unwatchable at this point.. It's tough to care about anything because other things we cared about suddenly didn't matter.

Without time travel, though, Heroes is still all over the place (in a bad way, not in the good-way-that-jkeegan-is-all-over-the-place).


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## Trent Bates (Dec 17, 2001)

And this is what I agree with as well.

IMO, poorly written time-travel concepts are found way too often. It doesn't make me hate them in general though. It just shows that many writers really don't get it beyond a general concept.

I think LOST has the potential to do a great job at telling a time-travel related story. I haven't seen anything so far that I feel is out of place or will never be addressed.

Heroes has kind of messed it up a few times, but I find the entire show to be a mess regardless of the time-travel element.

I think it's too early to say that LOST is not as good with the time-travel or the proxy elements. I expect that both will be explained and integrated into the overall story by the end.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah Heroes is practically unwatchable at this point.. It's tough to care about anything because other things we cared about suddenly didn't matter.
> 
> Without time travel, though, Heroes is still all over the place (in a bad way, not in the good-way-that-jkeegan-is-all-over-the-place).


I never watched Heroes. But I remember its first season, a bunch of people here saying that Lost was OVER, and Heroes was SO MUCH better. So I'm glad I didn't give up on lost and turn to Heroes instead!


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

mqpickles said:


> I never watched Heroes. But I remember its first season, a bunch of people here saying that Lost was OVER, and Heroes was SO MUCH better. So I'm glad I didn't give up on lost and turn to Heroes instead!


The first season of Heroes was something special. The following seasons, not so much. Unlike Lost, the first season is a complete story, so I would still recommend it.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah Heroes is practically unwatchable at this point.. It's tough to care about anything because other things we cared about suddenly didn't matter.
> 
> Without time travel, though, Heroes is still all over the place (in a bad way, not in the good-way-that-jkeegan-is-all-over-the-place).


I only watched a few episodes of Heroes after Season 1. They're even on my Tivo, but I seem to lack enthusiasm. But I find the time travel aspect of Lost interesting, even fascinating. Although I'm more interested in the linkage of the characters and how the island moves/behaves, both time travel and the island require a bit of belief suspension.

Jeff, all over the place like he's whirling that Donkey Wheel while drinking a case of Monster.  Speaking of which, how's that Crazy Theory Review of yours going?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Delta13 said:


> I only watched a few episodes of Heroes after Season 1. They're even on my Tivo, but I seem to lack enthusiasm. But I find the time travel aspect of Lost interesting, even fascinating. Although I'm more interested in the linkage of the characters and how the island moves/behaves, both time travel and the island require a bit of belief suspension.
> 
> Jeff, all over the place like he's whirling that Donkey Wheel while drinking a case of Monster.  Speaking of which, how's that Crazy Theory Review of yours going?


I'd planned to do it when the show was over, since who knows what will happen to make me have to go back and look again. But recently I did think of doing it sooner!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Back to Kate being pregnant, which i didn't think about until it was being discussed here and I don't believe is the case... but just curious, could she still give birth on the island because it was conceived off island? She knows what happens to pregnant women who conceive on the island... so why go back to the island, 'pregnant' and risk it. I guess I just needed to type this out to put me in the 'kate is not pregnant' group.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Gonna cool down Sawyer's ardor when he finds out Kate's got something cooking in the oven. Unless ... her and Ben got it on before leaving ...

Oh my god - the dreaded Ben-Juliet-Sawyer-Kate-Jack Love Pentagon From Hell!


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

6.5 hours


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> Oh my god - the dreaded Ben-Juliet-Sawyer-Kate-Jack Love Pentagon From Hell!


 That had me laughing out loud. Thank you!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I was listening to the radio at lunch, and they were talking about a book about a family who were sailing around the world (see where I'm going with this) for 3 years. They ended up in an accident involving the boat (they got slammed by a huge ship). That's not why I mention it though.

It got me to thinking about sailing around the world, and Desmond on his solo (solar, haw haw) race around the world. The word race implies there were other people sailing to try to beat him around the world.

Of course, this doesn't rule out the fact that when he said "solo race" he meant race against himself, but I don't think that's what he was getting at.

So my question is, what about the other racers? I realize Widmore was sponsoring the race somehow, but was the whole "race" thing a puton for Desmond's benefit? Or was it a race that had many entrants, but somehow Widmore gave Desmond the wrong "directions" to get to his destination so he would end up on the island?

It's all unimportant really, but I was thinking about it. Just something to talk about. 

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> I was listening to the radio at lunch, and they were talking about a book about a family who were sailing around the world (see where I'm going with this) for 3 years. They ended up in an accident involving the boat (they got slammed by a huge ship). That's not why I mention it though.
> 
> It got me to thinking about sailing around the world, and Desmond on his solo (solar, haw haw) race around the world. The word race implies there were other people sailing to try to beat him around the world.
> 
> ...


IIRC, it was a pretty big event, with many entrants and a sizable prize for the winner. Desmond wasn't going to compete, because he didn't have a boat, until he met Libby and she lent/gave him her boat. I don't remember if Widmore had anything to do with the race or if Desmond just felt that winning it would prove to Widmore that he had the skills to court Penny.


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## troublescoot (Feb 26, 2009)

Not sure anyone's brought this up yet, but just in case...

What are your thoughts on that?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

troublescoot said:


> Not sure anyone's brought this up yet, but just in case...
> 
> What are your thoughts on that?


My thoughts are that I don't have the time to digest it at work. 

Greg


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## troublescoot (Feb 26, 2009)

gchance said:


> My thoughts are that I don't have the time to digest it at work.
> 
> Greg


LOL Greg -- true, but it's definitely worth the read if you get the chance.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Uh, yeah..

I want people to remember to remember things like this when they think MY ideas are out there.

Thumbs-down, imnsho


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Wasn't Ben still a youngish guy when he killed the Dharma Institute?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Thumbs-down, imnsho


I agree. Like most "LOST solved" theories, it's convoluted and full of holes. I believe the full story will be will be more clean and neat than the various "complete" theories floating around the Internet!


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## troublescoot (Feb 26, 2009)

latrobe7 said:


> I agree. Like most "LOST solved" theories, it's convoluted and full of holes. I believe the full story will be will be more clean and neat than the various "complete" theories floating around the Internet!


I don't think the details are going to be right on, but I do think they might have something with the time theory. After all, they are conducting experiments on pregnant mothers and the one mother did have the 70 year old womb, so it would seem that either the mothers can temporarily avoid aging while their wombs cannot or just being on the island accelerates the rate at which the womb ages, but I'm pretty sure that what they were saying is that children CONCEIVED on the island weren't able to be born (hence the reason they brought in Juliet Burke, the fertility doctor). If the first is true (the mothers avoid aging while their wombs don't), then the Island must be stuck in a time loop of some sort which prevents it from going past a certain year.

However, if this is the case, why would they want to populate the island with new children? And how would it be possible for children to age at all if they're stuck in a particular time? It wouldn't, so it makes sense that funky things would happen to anything created during the time loop (like babies).

Also, I heard a theory that Jacob, as the most 'gifted' student, got killed in the initial explosion and became "one" with the island (and the smoke monster is his physical state). Not sure how valid that one is, but the smoke monster seems pretty ridiculous as it is.

I also heard another shaky theory that the smoke monster is the way that the time loops correct themselves, but then -- why would it be so destructive? This one seems bogus.

But this time loop theory makes more sense. It would explain why Richard doesn't age. It also explains why Locke can walk and doesn't stay injured when shot or worse.

The thing I keep thinking about is when Ben is talking to Widmore and says "You know I can't kill you." I don't know if you've got the answer to this yet (I certainly don't), but there are only a few reasons you wouldn't be able to physically kill someone, the most obvious of which is that doing so would alter you being there in the first place. If you traveled back in time and met up with someone from your past who had some direct influence over you (created you, saved you, guided you, etc.), you couldn't kill them because you'd never end up there in the first place.

I haven't seen tonight's episode, but I know it was supposed to have aired before the last episode, but they thought it would fit the timeline better or something to that effect. With that said, we know that Widmore is an 'Other' at some point. We also know that Widmore is a billionaire later on. What leads him there? He can be A.) Extremely smart, B.) Extremely lucky, C.) Extremely talented and hard working or D.) A time traveler who places sure bets just like Biff in Back to the Future 2.

Not sure about you, but I'm betting on D. If D is true, then we know why he's trying to find the island -- it's a gold mine. But I can't figure out why Ben wants to keep him from it.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

There's no doubt in my mind that there is time-looping involved; but I do not believe we've been given enough information to explain how it works and attempting to fill in the blanks is like doing mad-libs. Just because a theory can be bent to fit what we know at this point doesn't mean it's accurate.

I don't think Widmore got rich by knowing the future, but I certainly think his association with the island is related to his wealth.


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## troublescoot (Feb 26, 2009)

latrobe7 said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that there is time-looping involved; but I do not believe we've been given enough information to explain how it works and attempting to fill in the blanks is like doing mad-libs. Just because a theory can be bent to fit what we know at this point doesn't mean it's accurate.


I completely agree with you. There's no way to be 100% certain, but we can use deduction to come up with possibilities.



> I don't think Widmore got rich by knowing the future, but I certainly think his association with the island is related to his wealth.


Why don't you think Widmore got rich by knowing the future? I just got done watching tonight's episode, and we know these things:

1. Widmore was on the island when he was young
2. Widmore left the island at some point
3. He was ousted from the island by Ben
4. Time/location travel is possible (Ben's done it, Locke's done it, etc.)
5. Ben wants to keep Widmore away from the island

Now obviously, there's some trickery going on as we don't know who's lying and who's telling the truth (and we don't have the benefit of asking whether the other person would lie). Assuming this isn't a Wonka-Vermicious Knid-esque "good cop, bad cop" kind of thing between Ben and Widmore to confuse the hell out of us, it's pretty safe to say 1 through 5 are true.

Given these 5 points (with the added point that Widmore is indeed a billionaire), I don't think it's a long shot to say Widmore might use time travel for his own gain (unless doing so would make it so he never travels back in time or so that the future events that make him rich don't change).

In fact, for Widmore to actually use the future for gain, he would have to go back in time once he learns of future events and give that information to his former self as well as (and this is the most important) instruct his former self to go back in time and do the same thing at the exact same time to lock that time pattern in place. Once he'd delivered that message, he would return back to the origin and continue on (instantly wealthy at this point).

So it would make absolute sense that he would have to go back to the island in order to lock his wealth into place.

Why this conflicts with Ben's plans, I'm not sure. Ben seems like he could be either supremely selfish or supremely utilitarian. No way of knowing, since his character has an amazing poker face.

I'll have to think a bit more on this one, but let me know if there's something missing.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I linked to the time loop theory several times last year. Unfortunately, while an interesting read, it hasn't held up very well this season. The author recently made some significant revisions to account for what we've seen this season, but, IMO, it's not as compelling as it appeared to be last year.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

troublescoot said:


> Why don't you think Widmore got rich by knowing the future?


Because I haven't seen evidence of it in the show. Your theory presupposes a lot.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

You can create a function to match any data points you have.. How well it holds up when new data points are revealed is a good indicator of whether it was right or not.


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## GaryGnu (Jan 22, 2003)

getreal said:


> When Locke fell down the well during another time flash, he landed in the well/chamber BEFORE it had ever been dug, which also preceded the time that the Dharma Initiative built the Orchid Station. That was explained in the pop-ups in the repeat showing of last weeks episode just prior to airing this weeks episode.
> 
> Therefore, Locke turned the broken donkey wheel many years before Ben had turned it in 2004.


Wouldn't the wheel have to be a constant since it supposedly controls the time (or space) travel? So, in other words, if the wheel is "skipping" its always skipping (no matter what time anyone comes upon it) until it gets fixed.


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## troublescoot (Feb 26, 2009)

3D said:


> I linked to the time loop theory several times last year. Unfortunately, while an interesting read, it hasn't held up very well this season. The author recently made some significant revisions to account for what we've seen this season, but, IMO, it's not as compelling as it appeared to be last year.


I don't think the whole thing holds up but some parts seem to fit pretty well. I'm not completely advocating it but I don't think it should be overlooked is all.



latrobe7 said:


> Because I haven't seen evidence of it in the show. Your theory presupposes a lot.


Like what? I gave you five pretty decent points.



jkeegan said:


> You can create a function to match any data points you have.. How well it holds up when new data points are revealed is a good indicator of whether it was right or not.


I completely agree.



GaryGnu said:


> Wouldn't the wheel have to be a constant since it supposedly controls the time (or space) travel? So, in other words, if the wheel is "skipping" its always skipping (no matter what time anyone comes upon it) until it gets fixed.


That's an interesting point.

What happens if that's true?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

troublescoot said:


> Like what? I gave you five pretty decent points.


Like that Widmore has bumped around in time and/or he's moved the island more than once. The five points you list don't really establish anything in regards to Widmore's wealth (and we only have his word for #3).


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