# No 6 tuner Bolt comming



## lessd

For what it is worth somebody (hi up) told me at TiVo that the sales of 6 tuner TiVos has been very slow as most people (not on this Forum) only want or need the 4 tuner models so at this time TiVo will not be introducing and are not working on any 6 tuners Bolts. The Roamio Plus/Pro will stay, for the foreseeable future, the top end models.

*This may not be true *but does make some business sense to me.


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## trip1eX

lessd said:


> For what it is worth somebody (hi up) told me at TiVo that the sales of 6 tuner TiVos has been very slow as most people (not on this Forum) only want or need the 4 tuner models so at this time TiVo will not be introducing and are not working on any 6 tuners Bolts. The Roamio Plus/Pro will stay, for the foreseeable future, the top end models.
> 
> *This may not be true *but does make some business sense to me.


WE will find out more today when the Tivo guy answers that question.

But makes sense in many ways given this is their most popular model. This is the model their MSO partners advertise. And probably alot more efficient use of resources to just have 1 dvr model in this case. Less customer confusion and support hassles as well.

That being said I like my 6 tuners. I could live with 4. But 6 gives you freedom to not think twice about recording stuff.


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## tarheelblue32

This is what I have speculated about in other threads. The 6-tuner Roamio seem to be here to stay for a while. I hope this means that eventually the SkipMode feature will be coming to the Roamios as well.


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## tarheelblue32

trip1eX said:


> WE will find out more today when the Tivo guy answers that question.


IF he answers that question. There are no guarantees that he will even show up and answer questions. I suspect he will just ignore or dance around any questions he doesn't really want to answer directly.


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## jonw747

I don't think 'want or need' have anything to do with it as much as the cost structure does. Nobody was going to complain if the Bolt included support for 6-tuner cable cards unless it hiked up the price significantly.


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## vstone

jonw747 said:


> I don't think 'want or need' have anything to do with it as much as the cost structure does. Nobody was going to complain if the Bolt included support for 6-tuner cable cards unless it hiked up the price significantly.


All current cable cards support 6 tuners.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> WE will find out more today when the Tivo guy answers that question.


He already has. Essentially the 6 tuner "Pro" model wont be coming until next year. He specifically mentioned the 3 year release cycle.

Sounds like the Bolt was specifically in response to 4K streaming devices like the new Fire TV and Apple TV. It's intended to appeal to the masses, not the TiVo loyalists.


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## alarson83

Dan203 said:


> He already has. Essentially the 6 tuner "Pro" model wont be coming until next year. He specifically mentioned the 3 year release cycle.
> 
> Sounds like the Bolt was specifically in response to 4K streaming devices like the new Fire TV and Apple TV. It's intended to appeal to the masses, not the TiVo loyalists.


Except that their 'mass' appeal up until not long ago was offering a whole home solution with a tivo box and minis. That becomes less of a sell with only 4 tuners.


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## wmcbrine

It's impossible for me to see the Roamio Pro as the "top-end" model when it doesn't support 4K or HEVC, and has a slower processor. At the same time, I can't call the Bolt the top-end model when it only has four tuners and a smaller drive (and lacks analog outputs, but I have my doubts about those coming back on any future model). So there is no one "top-end" model now.


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## Dan203

alarson83 said:


> Except that their 'mass' appeal up until not long ago was offering a whole home solution with a tivo box and minis. That becomes less of a sell with only 4 tuners.


Without some sort of user profile system I'm not sure how much that system really appealed to families anyway.


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## atmuscarella

alarson83 said:


> Except that their 'mass' appeal up until not long ago was offering a whole home solution with a tivo box and minis. That becomes less of a sell with only 4 tuners.


Read the last paragraph of this post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651152#post10651152

With only 150,000 sales last year it actually is amazing we have a new box. With the Bolt TiVo is trying to go after new customers - most of which are not interested in paying what it costs for a 6 tuner "pro" DVR and are not TV or TiVo enthusiasts like many here are.


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## zerdian1

atmuscarella said:


> Read the last paragraph of this post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651152#post10651152
> 
> With only 150,000 sales last year it actually is amazing we have a new box. With the Bolt TiVo is trying to go after new customers - most of which are not interested in paying what it costs for a 6 tuner "pro" DVR and are not TV or TiVo enthusiasts like many here are.


But TiVo has said that the BOLT is their start of their Series 6 Tech marked by 4K Video streaming and playback. 
Later on they will have to address larger storage for 4K recorded videos.

TIVO STRATEGY SEEMS TO BE TO SELL THEIR LOW END DVRS WITH REDUCED TUNERS AND REDUCED STOAGE BUT 
HIGH END FUNCTIONS LIKE 4K, SKIPMODE & QUICKMODE.

*********************************************
Will the 8K be a TiVo Series 6 Bolt2 or a TiVo Series 7? 
If TiVo follows their current model, 8K will be TiVo Series 7 XXXX.
TiVo might try and bring out a new Series DVR each year 
and sell a year service with the box.
After all the Apple sales model has been working quite well.
*********************************************

By the way 8K technology has already been introduced.

Panasonic already has an 8K camera and has already announced that the 2020 Olympics on NHK will be broadcast in 8K with 16 times the resolution of 1080p.

8K RESOLUTION
8K resolution or Full Ultra HD (FUHD) is the highest ultra high definition television (UHDTV) resolution to exist in digital television and digital cinematography. 8K refers to the horizontal resolution of these formats, which all are on the order of 8,000 pixels, forming the total image dimensions (7680×4320).[1] 8K is a display resolution that may eventually be the successor to 4K resolution. 1080p is the current mainstream HD standard, with TV manufacturers pushing for 4K to become a new standard by 2017,[2] although the feasibility of such a fast transition as well as the practical necessity of a new standard is questionable.[3]

One advantage of high-resolution displays such as 8K is to have each pixel be indistinguishable from another to the human eye from a much closer distance. On an 8K screen sized 52 inches (132 cm), this effect would be achieved in a distance of 50.8 cm (20 inches) from the screen, and on a 92 in (234 cm) screen at 91.44 cm (3 feet) away. Another practical purpose of this resolution is in combination with a cropping technique used in video and film editing. This allows filmmakers to shoot in a high resolution such as 8K, with a wide lens, or at a farther distance from a potentially dangerous subject, intending to zoom and crop digitally in post-production, a portion of the original image to match a smaller resolution such as the current industry standard for high-definition televisions (1080p, 720p, and 480p).[4]

Few video cameras have the capability to shoot in 8K, with NHK being one of the only companies to have created a small broadcasting camera with an 8K image sensor.[5] Sony and Red Digital Cinema Camera Company are both working to bring larger 8K sensors in more of their cameras in the coming years.[5] Although it is unlikely that 8K will become a mainstream resolution anytime soon, a major reason filmmakers are pushing for 8K cameras is to get better 4K footage. Through a process called downsampling, using a higher resolution 8K image downsampled to 4K could create a sharper picture with richer colors than a 4K camera would be able to achieve on its own with a lower resolution sensor.[5]

from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8K_resolution


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## lessd

zerdian1 said:


> But TiVo has said that the BOLT is their start of their Series 6 Tech marked by 4K Video streaming and playback.
> Later on they will have to address larger storage for 4K recorded videos.
> 
> By the way 8K technology has already been introduced.
> 
> Panasonic has already announced that the 2020 Olympics on NHK will be broadcast in 8K with 16 times the resolution of 1080p.
> 
> from wiki:
> 8K resolution or Full Ultra HD (FUHD) is the highest ultra high definition television (UHDTV) resolution to exist in digital television and digital cinematography. 8K refers to the horizontal resolution of these formats, which all are on the order of 8,000 pixels, forming the total image dimensions (7680×4320).[1] 8K is a display resolution that may eventually be the successor to 4K resolution. 1080p is the current mainstream HD standard, with TV manufacturers pushing for 4K to become a new standard by 2017,[2] although the feasibility of such a fast transition as well as the practical necessity of a new standard is questionable.[3]
> 
> One advantage of high-resolution displays such as 8K is to have each pixel be indistinguishable from another to the human eye from a much closer distance. On an 8K screen sized 52 inches (132 cm), this effect would be achieved in a distance of 50.8 cm (20 inches) from the screen, and on a 92 in (234 cm) screen at 91.44 cm (3 feet) away. Another practical purpose of this resolution is in combination with a cropping technique used in video and film editing. This allows filmmakers to shoot in a high resolution such as 8K, with a wide lens, or at a farther distance from a potentially dangerous subject, intending to zoom and crop digitally in post-production, a portion of the original image to match a smaller resolution such as the current industry standard for high-definition televisions (1080p, 720p, and 480p).[4]
> 
> Few video cameras have the capability to shoot in 8K, with NHK being one of the only companies to have created a small broadcasting camera with an 8K image sensor.[5] Sony and Red Digital Cinema Camera Company are both working to bring larger 8K sensors in more of their cameras in the coming years.[5] Although it is unlikely that 8K will become a mainstream resolution anytime soon, a major reason filmmakers are pushing for 8K cameras is to get better 4K footage. Through a process called downsampling, using a higher resolution 8K image downsampled to 4K could create a sharper picture with richer colors than a 4K camera would be able to achieve on its own with a lower resolution sensor.[5]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8K_resolution


I guess 16K is just around the corner,  does anybody know what resolution digital movie theaters use ??


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## tarheelblue32

lessd said:


> I guess 16K is just around the corner,  does anybody know what resolution digital movie theaters use ??


Digital cinemas are roughly equivalent to 4K. IMAX theaters are roughly equivalent to 8K.


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## trip1eX

zerdian1 said:


> But TiVo has said that the BOLT is their start of their Series 6 Tech marked by 4K Video streaming and playback.
> Later on they will have to address larger storage for 4K recorded videos.
> 
> TIVO STRATEGY SEEMS TO BE TO SELL THEIR LOW END DVRS WITH REDUCED TUNERS AND REDUCED STOAGE BUT
> HIGH END FUNCTIONS LIKE 4K, SKIPMODE & QUICKMODE.
> 
> *********************************************
> Will the 8K be a TiVo Series 6 Bolt2 or a TiVo Series 7?
> If TiVo follows their current model, 8K will be TiVo Series 7 XXXX.
> TiVo might try and bring out a new Series DVR each year
> and sell a year service with the box.
> After all the Apple sales model has been working quite well.
> *********************************************


Tivo doesn't want to sell you a new DVR every year. There is nothing in it for them. They make money on the subscription. That is very unlike Apple who make money completely on hardware. Apple has no subscription attached to its hardware at all.

BUt Tivo does want to have hardware out on the market that is current in order to attract new customers and prevent old customers, who need the latest and greatest, from leaving the Tivo family.

In the case of the Bolt and 4k, if you open up a Best Buy ad, all you see are 4k tvs. Tivo now has a 4k DVR in Best Buy to go with those 4k tvs. That's why they needed this out there. They want to look good against the 4k streaming boxes that are on or will be on the market as well.

I don't think skipping commercials is a high end feature or even quick mode is one. To make it even easier to skip commercials is all the more attractive to the masses.

And the Bolt doesn't have reduced tuners nor reduced storage. Same # of tuners/storage as their previous best selling basic model. The Bolt is not the replacement for the plus/pro as the Tivo CMO stated today. IT is a replacement for the Roamio Basic.


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## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> He already has. Essentially the 6 tuner "Pro" model wont be coming until next year. He specifically mentioned the 3 year release cycle.


 Problem is, with "All-in" prices at ridiculous levels it will be hard for long time TiVo users to swallow having to pay yearly or monthly for service. It better be a lot more than just the Bolt + 2 tuners + bigger hard drive to have a chance.


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## tarheelblue32

moyekj said:


> Problem is, with "All-in" prices at ridiculous levels it will be hard for long time TiVo users to swallow having to pay yearly or monthly for service. It better be a lot more than just the Bolt + 2 tuners + bigger hard drive to have a chance.


He seemed to hint at the possibility of more than 6 tuners and larger than 3TB hard drive.


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## moyekj

tarheelblue32 said:


> He seemed to hint at the possibility of more than 6 tuners and larger than 3TB hard drive.


 Neither of those things are enticing to me. 6 tuners is just right for me, and I'm usually below 10% capacity on recordings on my Pro, so 3TB is way more than enough for me. SkipMode on my Roamio Pro is all I really want at the moment, but it's likely not going to happen.


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## krkaufman

atmuscarella said:


> ... new customers - most of which are not interested in paying what it costs for a 6 tuner "pro" DVR and are not TV or TiVo enthusiasts like many here are.


I have to wonder how much more a 6-tuner BOLT Pro would cost relative to the current BOLT, barring some unexpected hardware upgrades.


4 CableCARD or OTA tuners vs 6 CableCARD-only tuners

500GB/1TB 2.5" HDD vs 3TB 3.5" HDD

With the BOLT base model now including MoCA, Stream, Wireless-AC, Gigabit Ethernet... aren't the above the only major differences (again, barring other major updates beyond the current Pro)?


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## Jrr6415sun

it doesn't really make sense to push tivo mini so hard with only 4 tuners. 4 Tuners without a mini is plenty, but once you start adding minis those tuners get used up fast. 

Although this could be a plan to get people to buy 2-3 tivos per house and be able to get double the monthly fee from the tivos since they don't charge a monthly fee for the minis.

They could be working on it or the cost to add 2 more tuners would not be worth the research and expense.


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## Jrr6415sun

moyekj said:


> Problem is, with "All-in" prices at ridiculous levels it will be hard for long time TiVo users to swallow having to pay yearly or monthly for service. It better be a lot more than just the Bolt + 2 tuners + bigger hard drive to have a chance.


tivo does not make money on selling the boxes, they make money on the subscription service. It makes no sense for them to sell lifetime cheaply when their whole business model is subscription based.


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## Jrr6415sun

lessd said:


> For what it is worth somebody (hi up) told me at TiVo that the sales of 6 tuner TiVos has been very slow as most people (not on this Forum) only want or need the 4 tuner models so at this time TiVo will not be introducing and are not working on any 6 tuners Bolts. The Roamio Plus/Pro will stay, for the foreseeable future, the top end models.
> 
> *This may not be true *but does make some business sense to me.


I don't get why this is posted when Ira clearly says the opposite on this very site:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651164#post10651164



> Yes. We are working on products that I believe will finally hit on many of the items that have remained over the years. There will be no Pro line product that has any fewer than 6 tuners or storage sizes that don't excite you. We probably could've delivered a BOLT with two more tuners and a larger HDD and called it a family, but we knew that the market--and especially our loyalists--deserved much more. Look for something new next year, right on our normal three year cycle.


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## tarheelblue32

Jrr6415sun said:


> I don't get why this is posted when Ira clearly says the opposite on this very site


In fairness, it was posted before he said it, as were my posts above.


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## Dan203

Jrr6415sun said:


> it doesn't really make sense to push tivo mini so hard with only 4 tuners. 4 Tuners without a mini is plenty, but once you start adding minis those tuners get used up fast.


Only if you watch live TV.


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## wmcbrine

Jrr6415sun said:


> it doesn't really make sense to push tivo mini so hard with only 4 tuners. 4 Tuners without a mini is plenty, but once you start adding minis those tuners get used up fast.


Back when the Mini was first introduced, it would permanently eat up a tuner from its host device. But TiVo fixed that some time ago -- now, as soon as you stop actively watching live TV on the Mini, the tuner is released. So you have to not only have a bunch of Minis, but a bunch of Minis being used to watch live TV, simultaneously, for this to still be an issue.


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## atmuscarella

krkaufman said:


> I have to wonder how much more a 6-tuner BOLT Pro would cost relative to the current BOLT, barring some unexpected hardware upgrades.
> 
> 
> 4 CableCARD or OTA tuners vs 6 CableCARD-only tuners
> 
> 500GB/1TB 2.5" HDD vs 3TB 3.5" HDD
> 
> With the BOLT base model now including MoCA, Stream, Wireless-AC, Gigabit Ethernet... aren't the above the only major differences (again, barring other major updates beyond the current Pro)?


I look at it like the diferance between the Roamio + and Pro. Costs TiVo a few dollars more for the larger hard drive, but they charge customers $150+/- more for the unit. The upper units always have higher margins would expect at least $150-200 premium for what ever the Bolt Pro ends up being even if it really is only 2 tuners and larger hard drive


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## bricco

Dan203 said:


> Only if you watch live TV.


Outstanding point. We are using this device as the best ever DVR. From 2000 to now, I've owned what I believe to be the best device out there to do what it is supposed to do- time shift my programs. Watching Live TV is a necessity but not all the time and not in every room.


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## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> He seemed to hint at the possibility of more than 6 tuners and larger than 3TB hard drive.


My guess is a 6-tuner (CableCard limit) plus a 4 or 6TB drive, since that's easy to do. They could basically take the classic TiVo box, update the coloring to make it match the 4-tuner Bolt, put a new motherboard with the Bolt architecture and 4k support on it, and they have a Bolt Pro.

If there is no "Plus" model, then everyone will complain that the Pro is too expensive, and they want to do their own drive upgrade, but can't make everyone happy I guess!



Jrr6415sun said:


> it doesn't really make sense to push tivo mini so hard with only 4 tuners. 4 Tuners without a mini is plenty, but once you start adding minis those tuners get used up fast.


It took some scheduling creativity, but I had 3 roommates using a total of 4TVs, and we were fine with a single Premiere XL4 providing tuners.



atmuscarella said:


> I look at it like the diferance between the Roamio + and Pro. Costs TiVo a few dollars more for the larger hard drive, but they charge customers $150+/- more for the unit.


Yeah, I don't think there will be a Bolt Plus, only a Bolt Pro. I'm trying to think of what else Ira could be alluding to in terms of hardware features. Once you've got 4K, MoCA 2.0, 6 tuners, and a 6TB hard drive, there's nowhere really to go hardware wise. They're limited by what's coming in from the cable/fiber provider, and what's going out via HDMI, they've already got the Slide Pro remote.


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## krkaufman

Bigg said:


> Yeah, I don't think there will be a Bolt Plus, only a Bolt Pro. I'm trying to think of what else Ira could be alluding to in terms of hardware features. Once you've got 4K, MoCA 2.0, 6 tuners, and a 6TB hard drive, there's nowhere really to go hardware wise. They're limited by what's coming in from the cable/fiber provider, and what's going out via HDMI, they've already got the Slide Pro remote.


I'm puzzled, as well. 6+6 w/ the BOLT features would seem to be the hardware ceiling, barring new tech. Though the ability to leverage add-on external OTA tuners (USB 3.0 or networked) to supplement the 6 on-board CableCARD tuners would be one nice addition I can imagine/hope for.


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## atmuscarella

krkaufman said:


> I'm puzzled, as well. 6+6 w/ the BOLT features would seem to be the hardware ceiling, barring new tech. Though the ability to leverage add-on external OTA tuners (USB 3.0 or networked) to supplement the 6 on-board CableCARD tuners would be one nice addition I can imagine/hope for.


Ya I asked about UHD Blu-ray and he said no. I guess they might get Pro version that could do OTA & Cable with a 4+6 configuration or maybe there is another new processor in the works. Hard to think what else hardware wise it could be. Maybe something with networking? They could build in a GB switch in for a few bucks. Support for dual built in drives? USB C to add and power external add on drives?


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## Bigg

krkaufman said:


> I'm puzzled, as well. 6+6 w/ the BOLT features would seem to be the hardware ceiling, barring new tech. Though the ability to leverage add-on external OTA tuners (USB 3.0 or networked) to supplement the 6 on-board CableCARD tuners would be one nice addition I can imagine/hope for.


That would be awesome. I would think the current Roamios could do that via a software update, but maybe they can't handle that much at once. A 6+4 setup would be really nice. The ultimate would be what MCE did with tuner priority, but even just having them listed as separate channels, that would still free up quite a few tuners for some people who have good OTA reception.



atmuscarella said:


> Ya I asked about UHD Blu-ray and he said no. I guess they might get Pro version that could do OTA & Cable with a 4+6 configuration or maybe there is another new processor in the works. Hard to think what else hardware wise it could be. Maybe something with networking? They could build in a GB switch in for a few bucks. Support for dual built in drives? USB C to add and power external add on drives?


Gig switch doesn't really get you anything. USB C would be interesting, but it would have to have software support to actually DO something interesting.

I think most people on this forum would be happy (at least with the product if not the pricing scheme) with a 6 tuner, 6TB Bolt Pro.

UHD Blu-ray doesn't make any sense, as that's more hardware to be built in to the same unit, and it would just end up being expensive and clunky compared to having another unit.

I suppose they could make a 12-tuner, dual-CableCard Bolt Pro, but that would be astronomically expensive and probably way more than most people want/need.


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## daithen

This is what will keep me from getting a bolt. I have a plus w/6 tuners and to get a bolt to lose two tuners is a major drawback. 4K is cool that they are implementing it but since close to nothing streams or broadcasts in 4K right now seems to be there for the future when the content providers start embracing 4K. Besides need to get a 4K TV first  Think I will hold out until next year when a 6 tuner model is available.


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## zerdian1

What TiVo CMO said was that the Series 5 Roamio Pro was going to be kept and supported until the Series 6 Bolt had at least 6 tuners and at least 3TB.


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## Jonathan_S

Bigg said:


> Gig switch doesn't really get you anything. USB C would be interesting, but it would have to have software support to actually DO something interesting.


Switching _might_ slightly simplify wiring an entertainment center if the TiVo is already acting as the MoCA bridge to get the network there. A built in 8 port Ethernet switch is probably enough to wire most setups and is saves a little space and wiring. (Sure you lose the network connection if the TiVo is unplugged; but that's already true for the MoCA bridge so you don't seem to be any worse off for building in a small switch)

But I doubt it's a big enough win to justify the incremental cost to include it (not to mention you'd really need to go back to a larger case to cram it in. Ethernet switches aren't big, but the Bolt is pretty small).


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## Bigg

Jonathan_S said:


> Switching _might_ slightly simplify wiring an entertainment center if the TiVo is already acting as the MoCA bridge to get the network there. A built in 8 port Ethernet switch is probably enough to wire most setups and is saves a little space and wiring. (Sure you lose the network connection if the TiVo is unplugged; but that's already true for the MoCA bridge so you don't seem to be any worse off for building in a small switch)
> 
> But I doubt it's a big enough win to justify the incremental cost to include it (not to mention you'd really need to go back to a larger case to cram it in. Ethernet switches aren't big, but the Bolt is pretty small).


I don't think TiVo wants you using the DVR as a MoCA to Ethernet bridge, only the other way around. It works fine, but not only is it complicated for your average idiot to set up, but for whatever technical reason, I don't think they officially support it.

A few AVRs have switches built in, but even then, it's just extra space, and extra stuff to fail. Yes, it saves a wall wart and some wires, but 8 port gig switches are so cheap these days, you can just throw one or two (or in my case 3 or 4) back there and not worry about them.

It's one of those things that really doesn't add value to a DVR. OTA tuner, OTOH, would actually add a lot of value to the DVR. A 6 CableCard tuner, 6TB Bolt with 4 OTA tuners that would record 10 things at once would be a really compelling sell. Of course, then people who have crappy OTA and a cable company not named Comcast would complain about not having ClearQAM, but you can't make everyone happy I guess.

Going back to two hard drives would be great too. They should just not merge them together like in the past, but rather have any given show either entirely on one or entirely on the other, and have an option to consolidate to one drive if you have enough space available on one drive, so that you could replace the other. Would take a little bit of software work, but not that much.

There shouldn't be any space issues in the Bolt Pro, as it has to fit the 19" rackmount size, so adding drives or gig switches or tuners or whatever wouldn't be a big deal.


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## jonw747

Bigg said:


> If there is no "Plus" model, then everyone will complain that the Pro is too expensive, and they want to do their own drive upgrade, but can't make everyone happy I guess!


Well, they could ... they could offer a DVR with a user upgradable HD slot (or better yet two). Sell it with no drives pre-installed for those who want that, or with the drive included for those who prefer one-stop shopping/warranty.

With two slots, it would be possible to clone one hard drive to another for an upgrade or to deal with a reliability issue.


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## lessd

jonw747 said:


> Well, they could ... they could offer a DVR with a user upgradable HD slot (or better yet two). Sell it with no drives pre-installed for those who want that, or with the drive included for those who prefer one-stop shopping/warranty.
> 
> With two slots, it would be possible to clone one hard drive to another for an upgrade or to deal with a reliability issue.


TiVo does not want this to be like a PC, they want plug and play DVR, no slots for unknown drives to be put in, if TiVo allowed that they would not have locked down the eSATA port to just a few drives. The reason TiVo will let you put any drive inside a TiVo is that voids the warranty and takes TiVo out of the picture. TiVo wants to control what the average customer does, not people on this Forum.


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## Bigg

jonw747 said:


> Well, they could ... they could offer a DVR with a user upgradable HD slot (or better yet two). Sell it with no drives pre-installed for those who want that, or with the drive included for those who prefer one-stop shopping/warranty.
> 
> With two slots, it would be possible to clone one hard drive to another for an upgrade or to deal with a reliability issue.


I'm just thinking for profitability. If they only offer the Pro with a 6TB drive, they can change a 6TB price for it. If I were them, I'd just do a 6TB/6 tuner model and charge accordingly. The Plus was too much of a freebie in terms of doing drive upgrades. They need to have good margins on the device, since it's not a mainstream device. And then maybe they make a 1 or 2TB version for RCN and gang, like they have now.


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## Jed1

lessd said:


> TiVo does not want this to be like a PC, they want plug and play DVR, no slots for unknown drives to be put in, if TiVo allowed that they would not have locked down the eSATA port to just a few drives. The reason TiVo will let you put any drive inside a TiVo is that voids the warranty and takes TiVo out of the picture. TiVo wants to control what the average customer does, not people on this Forum.


Correct. Even Ira warned of this in one of his statements.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651408#post10651408


> We don't support the swapping of the internal hard drive. Doing so will void the TiVo warranty.


Also this is mentioned in TiVo's warranty terms.
https://www.tivo.com/legal/tivo-dvrmini-limited-warranty


> Please note that removing the cover of the DVR for any reason voids the warranty.


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## samccfl99

Bigg said:


> Going back to two hard drives would be great too. They should just not merge them together like in the past, but rather have any given show either entirely on one or entirely on the other, and have an option to consolidate to one drive if you have enough space available on one drive, so that you could replace the other. Would take a little bit of software work, but not that much.


They cannot fix the software they already have. I would love to put a 1TB expander on my Roamio Pro (they cannot even approve anything more like my 3TB WD MyBook), but not with that crazy software they got.

Wondering if there is any real difference between mine and the Bolt? All they want is THE MONEY. NO comment on the 4 tuners or the 1TB restriction, but you know what I am thinking. I guess it is good for people who still have those old tivos with only 2 tuners and who knows how little hard drive space.


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## andrews777

I am not sure whether I will keep following Tivo in the future. We like our Roamio OTA and Minis now, though I still haven't hooked up several since I moved. They need to be more aggressive on features, such as watching the same stream in many locations. Our SONOS gets more use than the Tivos now.

They may make their money on monthly subs, but I would just go with Uverse and their equipment if it comes to that. I only have the OTA now, but why pay Tivo a monthly fee in that case? They are not enough better to warrant it. 

I can only get ATT now, which is why I don't have any cable now, but my wife has found plenty on local HDTV channels to keep her occupied along with Netflix and Amazon. Having those integrated into the Tivo helps, but she could still watch that on the TV, Roku, Amazon Fire TV or other hardware I have that is MUCH cheaper than Tivo.


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## atmuscarella

andrews777 said:


> I am not sure whether I will keep following Tivo in the future. We like our Roamio OTA and Minis now, though I still haven't hooked up several since I moved. They need to be more aggressive on features, such as watching the same stream in many locations. Our SONOS gets more use than the Tivos now.
> 
> They may make their money on monthly subs, but I would just go with Uverse and their equipment if it comes to that. I only have the OTA now, but why pay Tivo a monthly fee in that case? They are not enough better to warrant it.
> 
> I can only get ATT now, which is why I don't have any cable now, but my wife has found plenty on local HDTV channels to keep her occupied along with Netflix and Amazon. Having those integrated into the Tivo helps, but she could still watch that on the TV, Roku, Amazon Fire TV or other hardware I have that is MUCH cheaper than Tivo.


TiVos don't work with AT&T Uverse service so if you go with AT&T and want a DVR for their service you have no choice but to rent their box. Beyond that you have to want a DVR to want a TiVo if you just want a cheap streaming box then buying a TiVo is foolish. If you do want a DVR for OTA or cable/FIOS then you should compare TiVo to your specific alternatives, what ends up being "best" for someone is specific to that persons wants/needs & alternative and doesn't have much to do with what anyone else thinks.


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Going back to two hard drives would be great too. They should just not merge them together like in the past, but rather have any given show either entirely on one or entirely on the other, and have an option to consolidate to one drive if you have enough space available on one drive, so that you could replace the other. Would take a little bit of software work, but not that much.


They could just use 3 and use Raid 5 then we would have space and backup all in one system.


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## ncbill

It doesn't void the warranty, Magnuson-Moss still applies.

Otherwise car manufacturers could refuse warranty service on your vehicle simply if you replaced a burned out bulb (or brake pad) with a non-OEM part.

However, on something that costs as little as a Tivo (vs. a vehicle) it's not worth litigating.

So if you want to upgrade your hard drive it's best to pay for a 3rd party warranty, & make sure to drop the original drive back in before you send it off for replacement.



Jed1 said:


> Correct. Even Ira warned of this in one of his statements.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651408#post10651408
> 
> Also this is mentioned in TiVo's warranty terms.
> https://www.tivo.com/legal/tivo-dvrmini-limited-warranty


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## Dan203

ncbill said:


> It doesn't void the warranty, Magnuson-Moss still applies.


Are you sure that applies to the continual warranty? They somehow are allowed to exclude "all in" units from this warranty, so it seems they would be able to exclude modified units as well.


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## Bigg

samccfl99 said:


> They cannot fix the software they already have. I would love to put a 1TB expander on my Roamio Pro (they cannot even approve anything more like my 3TB WD MyBook), but not with that crazy software they got.
> 
> Wondering if there is any real difference between mine and the Bolt? All they want is THE MONEY. NO comment on the 4 tuners or the 1TB restriction, but you know what I am thinking. I guess it is good for people who still have those old tivos with only 2 tuners and who knows how little hard drive space.


How hard is it to have a couple of different volumes? Computers have been doing this for like 30 years or more.



andrews777 said:


> I can only get ATT now, which is why I don't have any cable now, but my wife has found plenty on local HDTV channels to keep her occupied along with Netflix and Amazon.


That sucks. How can you only get U-Verse and not cable?



Dan203 said:


> They could just use 3 and use Raid 5 then we would have space and backup all in one system.


That would be awesome! Why not do 4 while you're at it so that if you put 4 6TB drives in, you'd end up with 18TB usable and be tolerant of a single drive failure? We can dream, right?


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## wmcbrine

Bigg said:


> How hard is it to have a couple of different volumes? Computers have been doing this for like 30 years or more.


Perhaps you misunderstand what TiVo is doing with the external drives? The lock-in that results from spreading each recording across both drives -- that's a feature, not a bug. TiVo doesn't _want_ you to be able to swap in drives arbitrarily, leading effectively to unlimited storage -- i.e., archiving. (Granted, you can still archive via TTG, but only for programs that aren't flagged as copy-prohibited.) Like a number of TiVo features, it's designed to please the copyright cartels.

Although, given TiVo's recent embrace of commercial skipping, I wonder if they might reconsider this one, too...


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## Bigg

wmcbrine said:


> Perhaps you misunderstand what TiVo is doing with the external drives? The lock-in that results from spreading each recording across both drives -- that's a feature, not a bug. TiVo doesn't _want_ you to be able to swap in drives arbitrarily, leading effectively to unlimited storage -- i.e., archiving. (Granted, you can still archive via TTG, but only for programs that aren't flagged as copy-prohibited.) Like a number of TiVo features, it's designed to please the copyright cartels.


I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong with that sort of thing, as long as only THAT box can play them back. Heck, on MCE you can copy everything to a NAS, but only THAT box can play them back.


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## Jed1

ncbill said:


> It doesn't void the warranty, Magnuson-Moss still applies.
> 
> Otherwise car manufacturers could refuse warranty service on your vehicle simply if you replaced a burned out bulb (or brake pad) with a non-OEM part.
> 
> However, on something that costs as little as a Tivo (vs. a vehicle) it's not worth litigating.
> 
> So if you want to upgrade your hard drive it's best to pay for a 3rd party warranty, & make sure to drop the original drive back in before you send it off for replacement.


First of all new car warranties do not cover wearable parts like brake pads, bulbs, batteries, etc. unless they are deemed defective.
If you modify the engine while under warranty and the engine then fails this will void the warranty replacement/repair.

The problem with TiVo's Continual Care Warranty is it is included in the monthly/yearly service agreement. Since they have no method of separating the two by price TiVo can effectively stop service on units that do not have the original drives in them. The only option the consumer will have then is to buy the All In plan as this has no warranty feature built in.
The reason why they can do this is the hard drive is not considered a replaceable piece of hardware by the consumer as it requires taking the unit apart. If TiVo wanted the hard drive to be consumer replaceable then they would have provided an easy access door like they have for the CableCard.

The links of the statements I posted and that you quoted was by a top level executive that works at TiVo and also TiVo has mentioned this in their Warranty terms and conditions.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651408#post10651408


> Ira Bahr, TiVo's CMO:
> *We don't support the swapping of the internal hard drive. Doing so will void the TiVo warranty.*


https://www.tivo.com/legal/tivo-dvrmini-limited-warranty


> *Please note that removing the cover of the DVR for any reason voids the warranty.*


I would advise that members on this forum not to mess around with the hard drive as there can be a major disappointment in the future if the unit needs to be replaced or repaired.
TiVo can also decide at the time of renewal for the service agreement to not offer monthly/yearly service and force the owner to buy the All In service or buy a new unit.
If you are thinking that TiVo will not know if the drive has been replaced then you can ask owners or second hand owners of Moxis that had the drive replaced as they are finding out that Arris will refuse to repair the unit if they see that the original drive is not in it. They actually can tell this through the service connection.

And if TiVo decides this and the owner does not like the decision it will be settled by arbitration as that is what happens when you agree to the terms of TiVo's service.
The cost of litigation will not fall on TiVo as it will fall on the consumer.
You can ask this of a forum member who tried to take TiVo to court over the S1 units.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=483175
And him throwing in the towel:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9009931#post9009931

Good luck in arguing the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975 in court and also I think that the Act cover Full warranties and not Limited warranties like TiVo uses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
Also one of the limitations of the Act states this:


> The federal minimum standards for full warranties *are waived* if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product *was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer*, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.


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## gamo62

tarheelblue32 said:


> Digital cinemas are roughly equivalent to 4K. IMAX theaters are roughly equivalent to 8K.


Actually that isn't exactly correct. Digital Cinemas are 2k by default, with some being able to do 4k. But 4k isn't standard, as most content is still 2k. IMAX is 4k consisting of two 2k projectors. I have heard that there is a newer system, a 4k laser system.


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## lessd

Jed1 said:


> First of all new car warranties do not cover wearable parts like brake pads, bulbs, batteries, etc. unless they are deemed defective.
> If you modify the engine while under warranty and the engine then fails this will void the warranty replacement/repair.
> 
> The problem with TiVo's Continual Care Warranty is it is included in the monthly/yearly service agreement. Since they have no method of separating the two by price TiVo can effectively stop service on units that do not have the original drives in them. The only option the consumer will have then is to buy the All In plan as this has no warranty feature built in.
> The reason why they can do this is the hard drive is not considered a replaceable piece of hardware by the consumer as it requires taking the unit apart. If TiVo wanted the hard drive to be consumer replaceable then they would have provided an easy access door like they have for the CableCard.
> 
> The links of the statements I posted and that you quoted was by a top level executive that works at TiVo and also TiVo has mentioned this in their Warranty terms and conditions.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651408#post10651408
> 
> https://www.tivo.com/legal/tivo-dvrmini-limited-warranty
> 
> I would advise that members on this forum not to mess around with the hard drive as there can be a major disappointment in the future if the unit needs to be replaced or repaired.
> TiVo can also decide at the time of renewal for the service agreement to not offer monthly/yearly service and force the owner to buy the All In service or buy a new unit.
> If you are thinking that TiVo will not know if the drive has been replaced then you can ask owners or second hand owners of Moxis that had the drive replaced as they are finding out that Arris will refuse to repair the unit if they see that the original drive is not in it. They actually can tell this through the service connection.
> 
> And if TiVo decides this and the owner does not like the decision it will be settled by arbitration as that is what happens when you agree to the terms of TiVo's service.
> The cost of litigation will not fall on TiVo as it will fall on the consumer.
> You can ask this of a forum member who tried to take TiVo to court over the S1 units.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=483175
> And him throwing in the towel:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9009931#post9009931
> 
> Good luck in arguing the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975 in court and also I think that the Act cover Full warranties and not Limited warranties like TiVo uses.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
> Also one of the limitations of the Act states this:


TiVo has given people very little problems in replacing the drive, if you keep the original drive and put that in before shipping the unit back to TiVo, but TiVo does have the right to give upgraders problems, they could cut off all service to all people that replace the drive. If TiVo did that Lifetime would not last any 12 or more years, and the people on this Forum would nuts, and I would go directly to the Comcast DVR system as used TiVo would have almost no value.


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## ncbill

It is in Tivo's best interest simply to ignore those upgrading the drive, as there are so few of them vs. unmodified units.
And on recent models (post-capacitor plague) the most likely component to fail is the hard drive, so that's on those upgrading to cover.



lessd said:


> TiVo has given people very little problems in replacing the drive, if you keep the original drive and put that in before shipping the unit back to TiVo, but TiVo does have the right to give upgraders problems, they could cut off all service to all people that replace the drive. If TiVo did that Lifetime would not last any 12 or more years, and the people on this Forum would nuts, and I would go directly to the Comcast DVR system as used TiVo would have almost no value.


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