# Channel Master's DVR+ offers true subscription-free over-the-air TV recording



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I know this thing is new, but has anyone heard anything more about it and how it stacks up against TiVo?

Not just the latest version either, but would it be a good solution for people upgrading from Series 2, 3, or HD's?

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/channel-master-dvr/4505-6463_7-35833139.html


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## StevesWeb (Dec 26, 2008)

Very interesting. The cable companies won't like this much at all, that's like 2 or 3 months cable bill for a lot of people, and then you're done.

The two weaknesses I see are the lack of Netflix and other similar hooks and the limited tuners. The article sauys you can watch one show while recording one other, even on a two tuner TiVo you can record two shows while watching a third.

The USB interface to the probable external hard drive is a choke point and will be a major engineering weakness.

Still, it sounds like a fun toy for TV/DVR lovers. I bet it will be a hit.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Zatz has a review of the CM DVR+ up as well today. He's offered to try things out if people have suggestions of things to try or questions that can be answered that way in the comments.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-12/channel-master-dvrplus-cm7500/

His review seems to indicate that simultaneous two-tuner recording while watching a third pre-recorded show is supported.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

When Dave first posted about it (about 10 days ago) I posted this on his site: 
I would say that if this works well and ships at the price points shown it would be a good OTA option for those who have more than one TV or only need 2 tuners. I have a TiVo Roamio and for me the Roamio with lifetime makes more sense as I only have one TV and need 4 Tuners.

Really hope this one works well as competition is a good thing and TiVo needs more. With this entry OTA users will several solid choices (Cannel Master, Simple TV, TiVo, & HTPCs) for a DVR setup.​This will be a cheaper OTA only solution than a Roamio, but you will also be getting less, what will be interesting to see is how it well it works, and if buying this new ends up being a better deal than buying a used Series 3 or Premiere with lifetime for those who are looking for a lower price point than a Roamio with lifetime.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

If you really do the apples to apples comparison, this is about $200 less then a lifetimed Roamio Basic (after adding hard drive). That isn't a bad discount, but has two less tuners, no analog out, less OTT functionality, no multi-room cabablity, no tablet integration, and we have no idea what the resale value is. (Caveat - all this takes time)

I am happy to see this market expand, and it isn't a bad product for bargain hunters - but in the end, I still think Roamio is (currently) a better deal.

Frankly, for the $350 it is going to cost you once you get a hard drive attached - you are at a very similar price point as a used Premiere.

///////

Just thinking about this... If eventually they allow multiple networked CM DVR+'s to work together and share a single network storage device - this becomes a very intriging product.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Roamio also has the ability to be converted to a cable DVR if you later decide you want cable instead.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

StevesWeb said:


> The article says you can watch one show while recording one other, even on a two tuner TiVo you can record two shows while watching a third.


It's two tuners (and watch a recording too).

Need four tuners for me. I understand there will be viewers who can live with two (or jump for joy with two). But even OTA I need four.

I agree that a lifetimed basic Roamio is a better option for the aficionado. But novices may like this.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't think novices will understand that it's only got 16GB and can only hold 2 hours of programming. Plus using an external drive ruins the ascetic of having such a small, thin, box. They should have just thrown a 500GB drive in there and bumped the price accordingly.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think novices will understand that it's only got 16GB and can only hold 2 hours of programming. Plus using an external drive ruins the ascetic of having such a small, thin, box. They should have just thrown a 500GB drive in there and bumped the price accordingly.


One question is if I can download the recordings to a PC. If you can do that, and you already have a media PC, then this would be a great box to get OTA recordings onto your media PC, and 16GB is plenty to hold the recording just long enough to download it
(well, unless it is a 4 hour movie .


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tomhorsley said:


> One question is if I can download the recordings to a PC. If you can do that, and you already have a media PC, then this would be a great box to get OTA recordings onto your media PC, and 16GB is plenty to hold the recording just long enough to download it
> (well, unless it is a 4 hour movie .


If you already have a media PC, you can buy Silcondust's HDHomeRun network OTA tuners for it for allot less money and use your media PC as the DVR.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think novices will understand that it's only got 16GB and can only hold 2 hours of programming. Plus using an external drive ruins the ascetic of having such a small, thin, box. They should have just thrown a 500GB drive in there and bumped the price accordingly.


At $250 it's already pretty expensive for a two tuner device. What is this, 2001? It's almost 2014, four tuners should be the minimum.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I'd be curious as to whether you can just swap out the external hard drive, instead of off loading the shows.
It would kind of be a pain, but it would allow one to save recordings categorically. Have one drive for "action", one for "drama", one for "sports", etc.
A clunky way to do things, sure. But it is an option that TiVo does not allow.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> At $250 it's already pretty expensive for a two tuner device. What is this, 2001? It's almost 2014, four tuners should be the minimum.


They are using USB drives for storage, with 4 tuners they would have to be able to do 5 streams at once, USB 3.0 could handle that without any issues but my experience with USB 2.0 devices is even though their should be plenty of band width there might be issues with 5 HD streams.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

steve614 said:


> I'd be curious as to whether you can just swap out the external hard drive, instead of off loading the shows.
> It would kind of be a pain, but it would allow one to save recordings categorically. Have one drive for "action", one for "drama", one for "sports", etc.
> A clunky way to do things, sure. But it is an option that TiVo does not allow.


There really isn't many restrictions on OTA recordings, most of what TiVo does is to comply with cable card requirements, so an OTA only DVR should be able to allow one to do pretty much anything you want with the recordings, unfortunately it does not appear that these channel master OTA DVRs where built with whole home and out of home use in mind. They could have allowed for direct storage onto a NAS via Ethernet and allowed multiple DVRs, computers, tablets, & phones to have access to those records both inside and outside of one's home network.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> There really isn't many restrictions on OTA recordings, most of what TiVo does is to comply with cable card requirements, so an OTA only DVR should be able to allow one to do pretty much anything you want with the recordings, unfortunately it does not appear that these channel master OTA DVRs where built with whole home and out of home use in mind. They could have allowed for direct storage onto a NAS via Ethernet and allowed multiple DVRs, computers, tablets, & phones to have access to those records both inside and outside of one's home network.


And that is how I would design this thing...

The measly 16GB memory would just be for the local buffer and OS. Allow a user to select a NAS for open extended storage and design multiple units to be cooperative for a whole home solution. Add cooperative scheduling across devices and it would be a compelling product for cord cutters.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> They are using USB drives for storage, with 4 tuners they would have to be able to do 5 streams at once, USB 3.0 could handle that without any issues but my experience with USB 2.0 devices is even though their should be plenty of band width there might be issues with 5 HD streams.


There are zero issues dealing with five HD streams over USB2.0. At least that was the case back in 2005/2006 when I last had an HTPC with multiple USB 2.0 tuners and also using a USB 2.0 drive for storage. It worked perfectly fine with half a dozen concurrent HD read/write streams.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I wish it at least had the equivalent of tivo to go so you could download shows off of it.. Though I also wonder if you could just have multiple external drives (though presumably you have no way of copying from one to the other, unless the 16 GB memory can act like temporary storage.. floppy copying, here we come again!)


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm buying one of these for my in-laws. They have no internet access and no landline. Tivo is not an option unless they want to add a landline or get an ISP. They want a DVR with a guide that allows for fast rewind, pause, fast forward recording and playback. 

A lot of people like the Magnavox/Phillips/Funai boxes, but I think the user interface is extremely unpolished. We are a bit biased towards the EchoStar products first from our time with Dish and more recently from our experience with DTVPal DVRs.

I don't think it stacks up against the Tivo. Tivo is a pretty sophisticated product. Sophistication is not free. I don't expect people to move from Tivo to the DVR+, but I think a lot of people who do not currently have DVRs will find the DVR+ attractive.

Two tuners means you can watch one thing while recording another. Support for 3t disks means 480 hours of HD capacity. Integrated apps means no switching inputs and, just maybe, a single remote that doesn't cost more than the DVR.

Exactly how successful this DVR will be, I think, depends on what they do with apps. Vudu is not particularly exciting. Netflix, Amazon Instant, and YouTube would satisfy most people. Sports and special interests would make this an OTT darling.

We cut our cable nearly four years ago and don't miss Comcast at all. Had no idea we could miss the DVR as much as we did. Bought a DTVPal then four more. The DVR+ is the DTVPal plus internet apps, an internet guide service, and virtually limitless storage. What's not to like?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Without an internet connection I wonder how good the EPG is? Apparently it's using the PSIP data transmitted with the OTA signal. My understanding is the PSIP specification can provide up to 16 days of guide data but that the PSIP info can vary widely per station and can even be -- none. Assuming a station provides 16 days worth, how many days will the DVR+ display?

Here's the link to the users guide:
http://support.channelmaster.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/200152160/DVR_Plus_Users_Guide.pdf
A quick scan revealed very little info about the program guide and the troubleshooting chapter has a section on the Program Guide -- which is empty!

I've submitted a support request to CM on this.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

wizwor said:


> I'm buying one of these for my in-laws. They have no internet access and no landline. Tivo is not an option unless they want to add a landline or get an ISP. They want a DVR with a guide that allows for fast rewind, pause, fast forward recording and playback.
> 
> A lot of people like the Magnavox/Phillips/Funai boxes, but I think the user interface is extremely unpolished. We are a bit biased towards the EchoStar products first from our time with Dish and more recently from our experience with DTVPal DVRs.
> 
> ...


Two tuners is supposed to mean you can record two things simultaneously and watch a previously recorded 3rd thing, all at the same time.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

My answer from CM support:



> If the device isn't connected to the internet, you will receive a limited guide from the PSIP data your broadcasters send (typically 2-3 days, but it varies). Let me know if you have any other questions.


Even with the internet guide data I don't see any indication it can do Season Passes. That would be a major TiVo advantage.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Without an internet connection I wonder how good the EPG is? Apparently it's using the PSIP data transmitted with the OTA signal. My understanding is the PSIP specification can provide up to 16 days of guide data but that the PSIP info can vary widely per station and can even be -- none. Assuming a station provides 16 days worth, how many days will the DVR+ display?


Terrible, PSIP is at best usually less than 24 hours of data and is often wildly inaccurate. The OTA stations generally don't give a crap about it (because few people use it), so you'd be better off doing manual recordings VCR-style rather than rely on this.

It's all YMMV based on area and station of course, but IMO you have to have internet guide to make this functional as a real DVR, not a glorified VCR.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

But even with the internet guide data, if it can't do season passes is it a "real" DVR?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dlfl said:


> But even with the internet guide data, if it can't do season passes is it a "real" DVR?


What makes a DVR require a Season Pass function? it's still a DVR without that capability, just not one with many features


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

You don't suppose TiVo users are spoiled for ordinary DVRs, do you?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey this is a Tivo forum! Real DVR's do season passes. 

Just out of curiosity, how many other (so-called) DVR's do SP's? Do the cable co boxes do them?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Hey this is a Tivo forum! Real DVR's do season passes.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many other (so-called) DVR's do SP's? Do the cable co boxes do them?


Every DVR that I know of does SPs. Even cableco POS. Without the ability to set an SP, it's almost worthless.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Heck, even *Tivos* with Tivo Basic didn't do Season Passes.. That was their attempt to make people pay for the full service.

Though one could also argue, even without trademark infringement issues (if Tivo does indeed have the trademark), whether other recorders DO have a (nearly) equivalent of season passes.. e.g. follow time slot changes and such.


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## Loach (Jan 11, 2013)

dlfl said:


> Hey this is a Tivo forum! Real DVR's do season passes.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many other (so-called) DVR's do SP's? Do the cable co boxes do them?


Even my Cox DVR I got in 2005 did season passes and did them well.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

This quoted from a post on the AVS Forums DVR+ owners thread:


> The CM-7500 has name-based recording. There is an option when, you select a program from the guide to record, that asks if you want to record other programs with the same name. That sounds like a season pass to me.


The question is how well does this mimic a Tivo SP?

It looks like Dave Zatz is the only person outside CM to have had access to a DVR+. Maybe he could provide some info on this.

In major metro areas OTA can pick up 2 or more stations that air the same shows. There would need to be a way to prevent recording duplicates.

Unless the DVR+ has some reasonable SP-like functionality I think it will have a hard time competing with Roamio even with the $200 price advantage.


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## polar_vortex (Jan 8, 2014)

I just got mine today and hooked it up to my Samsung Smart TV. I connected an Ethernet cable from my ClearSpot Hub for the Internet and hung on a WD Passport 1TB USB drive. I live in Fremont, CA and get all the SF Bay Area OTA channels with an indoor amplified antenna.

I just pulled the plug on Dish, too much for too little. This CHM DVR+ displays a program guide and allows future recording choices and on the air rewinds very much like the Dish DVR did. The picture quality is fantastic, it allows 1080p and 720 to come through. Wow. I'm very pleased with this, my previous OTA DVR experiences were not good.

The DVR+ comes with built in VUDU, but my Samsung Smart TV comes with built in Netflix, YouTube, Amazon Prime Time, HuLu+, and will play MP4 videos on a USB flash drive plugged in back.

Back with more later, right now I'm anxious to watch the TONIGHT SHOW I recorded in 1080p.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I always read about these new rudimentary DVRs, I like competition even though there is a superior product available for the market already and I know the new competition won't really be competition. I would buy a used TiVo Premiere with lifetime service at about the same price before buying this, primarily because the TiVo DVR software is so much better, more sophisticated and reliable. I would also buy a new Roamio at a premium before buying this.

The market for this product is one that doesn't really understand the difference between TiVo and a simple DVR, to avoid the hated monthly fees. I hate monthly fees also but I don't see how anybody making a comparison between this Channel Master DVR and TiVo could decide to buy Channel Master instead of TiVo with lifetime.

I am using a PC with attached USB hard drive and PlayLater DVR software, once in a while I get a failed recording and I believe the reason is often the USB connection. MediaMall, the company selling the software has stated USB drives are not recommended and suggests internal drives should be used. I have no technical knowledge about connection types and shortcomings but based on my experience, I think internal SATA or IDE drives or eSATA connection for external drives is preferred. With PlayLater, I just reschedule the recording, it is still available but with this Channel Master DVR and live TV, a missed recording is a bigger problem.

Anybody with a better technical understanding of connections think USB is a poor choice for DVR storage? I do welcome the competition of course, even though I have no interest, I am part of the target market, a cord cutter using OTA DVRs. I am a long time part of that market and have looked at the previous Channel Master DVRs and others.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

polar_vortex said:


> Back with more later, right now I'm anxious to watch the TONIGHT SHOW I recorded in 1080p.


There is *NO* OTA programming in 1080p. NBC and CBS broadcast in 1080i, ABC and FOX broadcast in 720p. Not sure what that DVR is telling you to make you think otherwise.

Sorry to burst your bubble.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

It would be interesting to know how this DVR's OTA reception is compared to the various TiVo and non TiVo options out there. Unfortunately the only way to really know how the reception compares is to have all the DVRs in one place that has marginal reception and/or the common reception issues and test them off the same line. 

The reality is there are getting to be a good number of options for OTA, which is a really good thing. I would love someone to do a large scale comparison but I do not think it is going to happen.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

@polar_vortex,

How well can record by name mimic season passes? If the same show airs on two or more stations you receive, can you set it to only record from one station (to avoid recording duplicate episodes)? If the same episode has repeated airings, can you prevent duplicate recordings, or at least have the repeat recording overwrite the previous duplicate?


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## bobsaccount (Jan 8, 2014)

StevesWeb said:


> The cable companies won't like this much at all, that's like 2 or 3 months cable bill for a lot of people, and then you're done.
> 
> The two weaknesses I see are the lack of Netflix and other similar hooks and the limited tuners. The article says you can watch one show while recording one other, even on a two tuner TiVo you can record two shows while watching a third.
> 
> ...


Hook the TV antenna to the single RF input. Record two shows. Use a splitter and your TV's tuner to watch a third program while recording.
It's a connected unit. Doesn't have Netflix YET. Netflix is hardly difficult to get to. Roku anyone?
USB hard drives have more than enough speed for HDTV. 
Oh. And the program guide? FREE!


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## bobsaccount (Jan 8, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Terrible, PSIP is at best usually less than 24 hours of data and is often wildly inaccurate. The OTA stations generally don't give a crap about it (because few people use it), so you'd be better off doing manual recordings VCR-style rather than rely on this.
> 
> It's all YMMV based on area and station of course, but IMO you have to have internet guide to make this functional as a real DVR, not a glorified VCR.


The DVR+ plus does indeed have an internet based program grid, And it's Free. It only uses PSIP for a backup.


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## bobsaccount (Jan 8, 2014)

dlfl said:


> Hey this is a Tivo forum! Real DVR's do season passes.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many other (so-called) DVR's do SP's? Do the cable co boxes do them?


The DVR+ does text/title-based recording. Not quite a SP, but real close.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bobsaccount said:


> The DVR+ plus does indeed have an internet based program grid, And it's Free. It only uses PSIP for a backup.





bobsaccount said:


> The DVR+ does text/title-based recording. Not quite a SP, but real close.


This is deja vu all over again (covered earlier in this thread).


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

posted this over at AVS, interesting. competition is a good thing.

*Channel Master is developing a whole-home DVR solution for cord cutters*

http://gigaom.com/2014/01/08/channel-master-dvr-plus-extender/



> Channel Master wants its new DVR+ to be the TiVo of people who don't like to pay TiVo's fees - and now, it's developing whole-home DVR functionality as well.
> 
> Channel Master, known for its over-the-air TV antennas as well as some early digital video recorders that go along with these antennas, started shipping its new DVR+ this week - and the company is already looking to bring additional functionality to the device. Channel Master EVP Joe Bingochea told me at the CES in Las Vegas Wednesday that his company is looking to introduce a small companion device in the next few months that will turn the DVR+ into a whole-home digital video recorder.
> 
> ...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Wake me up when their whole home solution does more than just OTA.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm thrilled about this offering although I don't plan to purchase one soon. It may be a long time before it reaches the sophistication of TiVo but I see it like Slingmedia versus Monsoon (Hava/Vulkano/Belkin). I hope it successfully gains marketshare.


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## santanzchild (Feb 21, 2010)

Chris Gerhard said:


> The market for this product is one that doesn't really understand the difference between TiVo and a simple DVR, to avoid the hated monthly fees. I hate monthly fees also but I don't see how anybody making a comparison between this Channel Master DVR and TiVo could decide to buy Channel Master instead of TiVo with lifetime.


The people who would buy it are the ones that cut the cable because of the money and dont have $700+ to get a tivo with lifetime going.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

polar_vortex said:


> I just got mine today and hooked it up to my Samsung Smart TV. I connected an Ethernet cable from my ClearSpot Hub for the Internet and hung on a WD Passport 1TB USB drive. I live in Fremont, CA and get all the SF Bay Area OTA channels with an indoor amplified antenna.
> 
> I just pulled the plug on Dish, too much for too little. This CHM DVR+ displays a program guide and allows future recording choices and on the air rewinds very much like the Dish DVR did. The picture quality is fantastic, it allows 1080p and 720 to come through. Wow. I'm very pleased with this, my previous OTA DVR experiences were not good.
> 
> ...





dlfl said:


> @polar_vortex,
> 
> How well can record by name mimic season passes? If the same show airs on two or more stations you receive, can you set it to only record from one station (to avoid recording duplicate episodes)? If the same episode has repeated airings, can you prevent duplicate recordings, or at least have the repeat recording overwrite the previous duplicate?


Hey it's been a week now and we're still hoping for that "back with more later", especially answers to my questions above about recording by name.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

> The CM-7500 has name-based recording. There is an option when, you select a program from the guide to record, that asks if you want to record other programs with the same name. That sounds like a season pass to me.


No way to indicate first runs only, so you get repeats and reruns.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

santanzchild said:


> The people who would buy it are the ones that cut the cable because of the money and dont have $700+ to get a tivo with lifetime going.


Much more likely the people who will buy it are the ones who listen to posts that claim you have to pay a monthly fee for a TiVo or ones like yours that say it costs $700 for a lifetimed Tivo.

Sure you could pay monthly fee or even the $700 you stated if you wanted to but it is also pretty easy to pay $550 or less for a new Roamio with lifetime and if someone is willing to start with a used Series 3 unit they can have one with lifetime and an upgraded hard drive for less than this new channel master unit costs without a hard drive.

In the end what really matters is how well any OTA DVR works (reception, reliability, easy of use, feature set, etc.) and as I have stated before I would be real interested in hearing from people that can directly compare this new channel master OTA DVR to other TiVo and nonTiVo OTA DVRs.


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## bobsaccount (Jan 8, 2014)

santanzchild said:


> The people who would buy it are the ones that cut the cable because of the money and dont have $700+ to get a tivo with lifetime going.


I have the money, just don't want to waste it.


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## bobsaccount (Jan 8, 2014)

bradleys said:


> No way to indicate first runs only, so you get repeats and reruns.


Well see, the DVR+ is for people who can cope with such things and are not upset or challenged by deleting the occasional duplicate ...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bobsaccount said:


> Well see, the DVR+ is for people who can cope with such things and are not upset or challenged by deleting the occasional duplicate ...


Whereas Tivos are for people who can cope with CableCARD, Tuning Adapters and poor support from cable TV operators. I'd gladly substitute deleting some duplicates for those problems, although I'm still interested in how well one can approach Tivo's season pass functionality with the DVR+, just as a matter of curiosity.

The really major issues w.r.t. the DVR+ are:

1. Are you ready to cut the cord?
2. Is it a quality product that works well?
3. Is it supported, both now and in the future?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

bobsaccount said:


> I have the money, just don't want to waste it.


You either want the extra features of a Roamio or you don't (double the number of tuners, way better DVR features, etc.). It's just a choice, not a waste.


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## Starfury9 (Nov 1, 2013)

This looks a lot better than their DTVpal!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

bobsaccount said:


> Well see, the DVR+ is for people who can cope with such things and are not upset or challenged by deleting the occasional duplicate ...


But if you're recording a duplicate, then the tuner is not free to record something else. It's not just the drudgery of deleting duplicates.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> But if you're recording a duplicate, then the tuner is not free to record something else. It's not just the drudgery of deleting duplicates.


Which leads to another question: How does it decide which show not to record if your record-by-name shows lead to three shows to be recorded at the same time? Actually I'm not sure how Tivo handles this (with season passes). Is tivo smart enough to reschedule one of the recordings to a duplicate showing at a different time? If that's not possible, what does it do? (Obviously I've never had this happen, but I would guess it records the two shows that are highest on the Season Pass list.)


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## joemckairnes (Feb 1, 2014)

I've been off cable for years now - have an antenna on the roof ($250). I get almost 100 channels, most all in HD, and am pleased that I get channels with shows from the past (oldies). Got to tell you, I'm fed up with Tivo - desktop software has lots of problems, tivo channel guide is almost always wrong, I could go on and on.. Seriously considering the Channel Master DVR+....... Don't bash...just my experiences / thoughts! Also, not a 'big' TV/Movie person...basics are fine...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Channel guide is almost always wrong? LOL - you're using a different Tivo than I, Tivo generally has the most up to date data you can get on a DVR.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slowbiscuit: Don't feed the Channel Master pimping trolls. While I have suspected that several of the users who setup IDs just to post in this tread where just that, the one you just responded to is even more suspect.


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## joemckairnes (Feb 1, 2014)

Aw - I asked you to be nice... I just spent 3 hours with Tivo support - desktop hasn't worked since I installed windows 8. And yes, the guide is almost always wrong. No need to get personal - lets be adult here..... I'm a consumer who is very frustrated with Tivo and looking for alternatives....


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## replaytv (Feb 21, 2011)

It is rare that I have found the channel guide wrong. Not to say that TiVo is perfect, as it isn't in many ways. But really do love my TiVos. Their better than anything I have used in the past. And I have had ReplayTVs and lots of other brands of DVRS. 

I don't use the desktop software, so can't address any problems with that.

I have never used a Channel Master DVR+ so can't say it is better or worse. Might try one if I find one for $50 at the thrift store or craigslist. The places I have bought most of my other DVRs.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

joemckairnes said:


> ...... the guide is almost always wrong.......


I suspect this is due to your very unusual situation almost 100 OTA channels. You must be pulling from a large geographic area, i.e., many zip codes, and I think this may be something the Tivo guide data system doesn't handle well.

I suspect the DVR+ guide data won't handle it well either.

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many unique channels this gives you? For example I'm guessing you have five or more versions of each of the major networks such as CBS. Also do you rotate your antenna?


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## rcanoza (Feb 2, 2014)

Wow, I guess it's not as overpriced as it seemed, if it can catch around 100 OTA channels


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd be curious to know where you can pick up 100 OTA channels in one geographic area that you can actually receive and see on a TV screen. I'm located between Baltimore and D.C. and I get about 51 channels when I run a scan, many of which I can't actually receive. In reality, I can actually receive about 30-40 channels, and most of them are sub-channels. I get duplicates of all of the major network channels from each market, a couple of independent channels, and 4 or 5 PBS channels, all in HD.

I echo the sentiment regarding Tivo's guide data. I can't recall any instances where it was wrong unless there was a last minute schedule change that occurred too late for Tivo to update it.


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## donald26 (Apr 7, 2014)

I recently bought a Tivo Roamio to use with local over the air signals.
It was not very good a pulling in all the local channels which I receive well using my new Samsung tv. 
I installed a tuner from Hauppage in my pc. It also works well in pulling in local tv signals.
Has anybody else been having issues with the Roamio atsc tuner?
donald


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> It would be interesting to know how this DVR's OTA reception is compared to the various TiVo and non TiVo options out there. Unfortunately the only way to really know how the reception compares is to have all the DVRs in one place that has marginal reception and/or the common reception issues and test them off the same line.
> 
> The reality is there are getting to be a good number of options for OTA, which is a really good thing. I would love someone to do a large scale comparison but I do not think it is going to happen.


 The trend for OTA is down, the market is shrinking, and a lot of people can't get OTA reception. Don't get me wrong I use OTA myself but i also see the handwriting on the wall that people in our government would just as soon sell off the frequency ranges for wireless internet/ advanced cell phone networks sooner than later.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

donald26 said:


> I recently bought a Tivo Roamio to use with local over the air signals.
> It was not very good a pulling in all the local channels which I receive well using my new Samsung tv.
> I installed a tuner from Hauppage in my pc. It also works well in pulling in local tv signals.
> Has anybody else been having issues with the Roamio atsc tuner?
> donald


So are you for real? Or just another Channel Master Pimp?

Most people (including me) have found the Roamio OTA tuners to be very good. In my setup my Roamio OTA tuners are as good or better than any other tuners I have used including my Panasonic TV & HDHomeRun.

On the outside chance you are for real, if your Roamio's OTA tuners are significantly different than the other tuners you mention I would assume you had a defective unit.

*Just a note for other readers this account (donald26) was just opened and used to post 2 negative comments about Roamio & OTA reception. Once to bring the channel master thread back up and again in anther thread where the channel master was mentioned as an option.

*


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

StevesWeb said:


> Very interesting. The cable companies won't like this much at all, that's like 2 or 3 months cable bill for a lot of people, and then you're done.


Other than the fact that you don't get 90% of the content that you get on cable.

This whole "cord cutting" thing is ridiculous. It's just a small minority of cable subscribers who don't watch much, if any TV in the first place.

TiVo is only able to compete in this space because their OTA DVR is one of the very few OTA DVR solutions out there, and primarily because most of the people who buy it are using with CableCard.

From the Zatz article:



> While we frequently discuss cord cutters, the fact is that there are something around 15 million antenna-only households many of whom are price sensitive and still fumble around with VCRs. This is the market Channel Master is prioritizing with DVR+ and the companys first goal is a rock solid over-the-air digital recorder, with additional online content to follow  to expand its utility and potential audience.


I think this is key, and price point is going to be extremely critical in this market. That market is very underserved since most DVRs come from the MSOs.


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## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

I read about the Channel Master DVR in another forum thread about a new tablo? apparently there are about 3 OTA dvrs availalble these days that can be used without a subscription. I seem to remember the Tivo series 1 allowed you to use it without a subscription but it was extremely limited use. I don't plan on dropping Tivo but not sure we will ever replace our current HD Tivo when it dies. We fall into the category of those that really do not watch much regular TV, finding we use Netflix streaming more. My wife has 1 morning talk show that she likes to watch while exercising and that must be live, I ended up setting up a small antenna feeding the tv at her exercise bike. We are currently trying the Redbox Instant as well but that lacks the selections Netflix has to offer. A few shows we would use our Tivo for can be seen with no commercial interruptions via a seperate Roku channel. I never thought I would be annoyed with fast forwarding through commercials but after a few years with services like Netflix, I prefer no commercials. I think the day is coming that we no longer use Comcast/Verizon for anything other than an internet connection. On the other hand, after more than a decade of hearing the Tivo beep with every press of the remote we may have a hard time adjusting to not having it.

On edit: for a while I had a pretty good external directional antenna hooked up to the HD Tivo, it worked but not satisfactory because of our location, it would have to be turned too often, and the multidirectional antennas did not work as well. The external antenna was only good for 1 or 2 channels at any one setting, and some times when turning it, even though it registered the correct location it would be off enough to affect the signal.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> If you already have a media PC, you can buy Silcondust's HDHomeRun network OTA tuners for it for allot less money and use your media PC as the DVR.


And risk some windows update rebooting my PC in the middle of the superbowl. That kind of thing is why I have stopped short of letting my HTPC do that kind of thing. I do processing, burning, storing and transferring with it. Even recording to it via analog component cables from the tivo but I wont go there. Guess Im paranoid but I dont trust Bill Gates with my TV experience.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

vurbano said:


> And risk some windows update rebooting my PC in the middle of the superbowl. That kind of thing is why I have stopped short of letting my HTPC do that kind of thing. I do processing, burning, storing and transferring with it. Even recording to it via analog component cables from the tivo but I wont go there. Guess Im paranoid but I dont trust Bill Gates with my TV experience.


You do know that you can manage Windows updates so that nothing happens unless you want it to? I've been using WMC since 2006 for ota recording, and while I do use Tivo's (for cable), I've been very happy with it's reliability.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

vurbano said:


> And risk some windows update rebooting my PC in the middle of the superbowl. That kind of thing is why I have stopped short of letting my HTPC do that kind of thing. I do processing, burning, storing and transferring with it. Even recording to it via analog component cables from the tivo but I wont go there. Guess Im paranoid but I dont trust Bill Gates with my TV experience.


Seriously?  You know you can schedule auto-updates anytime you want, manually authorize them or even disable them if you don't use the PC for anything else right?

This is not a valid reason to not use a PC.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

MCE is rather unreliable. I had it for a very short period of time, and then came back to TiVo. What a mess MCE is. Sure, you can schedule updates, but there are a million and one other things that can go south on a PC and screw up the experience.


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## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

Over the years I have gotten very angry at people at Tivo for some of the decisions they have made but with well over a decade of use I do know Tivo has been extremely reliable doing what it does best, time shifting/saving TV. I do not know and therefore can not say the same about any of the newer DVR offerings from various alternative sources available today, will have to wait and see how well they perform over time.


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## kamban (Aug 28, 2008)

Bigg said:


> MCE is rather unreliable. I had it for a very short period of time, and then came back to TiVo. What a mess MCE is. Sure, you can schedule updates, but there are a million and one other things that can go south on a PC and screw up the experience.


Normally I don't comment in this section but there was a link to this thread in a similar thread going on in HH.

For the record I have had HD home run and connected to a Win7 HTPC and using Windows media Center I have recorded hundreds of shows reliably over the past 3 years with no interruptions.

The autoupdates get done but reboot does not occur until I decide to do it ( usually after I finish watching a program). I also have a TiVo Series 2 for Dish satellite just for 2 international channels that my wife watches.

TiVo is reliable but so is the Windows based based DVR.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

kamban said:


> Normally I don't comment in this section but there was a link to this thread in a similar thread going on in HH.
> 
> For the record I have had HD home run and connected to a Win7 HTPC and using Windows media Center I have recorded hundreds of shows reliably over the past 3 years with no interruptions.
> 
> ...


HTPCs are a mess. The hardware sucks for the intended use, the drivers are unreliable, etc, etc. I like having one, but I learned from my mistake that they should NEVER be in the critical path between the TV provider and the display.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

The thing I have always liked about Tivo's if the power goes out and comes back the show(s) are recorded, clocks are blinking, PC is off, but the Tivo has reset itself and recorded. A nice appliance running on Linux that just records TV.
Life is complicated enough, TV should be easy.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> MCE is rather unreliable.


For the 14th million time - no, it's not and there wouldn't be an entire website dedicated to it (TGB) if it was. Please stop extrapolating your experience as if it is everyone's, because it's not.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Give it a rest, Bigg. Bitterness and hatred doesn't serve anyone. By now the entire internet knows how you feel about WMC. I've seen you trash it in every HTPC/WMC-related forum I've ever been to and you get rebuffed at every turn. Nobody's buying it, except maybe tripleX.

That being said, is it possible to keep this thread on the original topic and discuss the ChannelMaster DVR rather than turning it into another WMC crapfest?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> That being said, is it possible to keep this thread on the original topic and discuss the ChannelMaster DVR rather than turning it into another WMC crapfest?


Yes would be interesting to hear what real owners have to say. Of course we could just go over to the AVS Forums nice long thread there.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Give it a rest, Bigg. Bitterness and hatred doesn't serve anyone. By now the entire internet knows how you feel about WMC. I've seen you trash it in every HTPC/WMC-related forum I've ever been to and you get rebuffed at every turn. Nobody's buying it, except maybe tripleX.
> 
> That being said, is it possible to keep this thread on the original topic and discuss the ChannelMaster DVR rather than turning it into another WMC crapfest?


I find it rather amusing that you continue to promote MCE, which is basically a dead product at this point. A big part of the reason is that it's near impossible to set up. Yes, I technically got mine working, but it was a glitchy PITA, and my computer and networking skills are in the top couple of percent in the general population, and I couldn't get it working right. It wasn't a marketable product, even for the tech savvy.

What's even funnier is that you come on a TiVo forum to sing the praises about MCE.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Yes would be interesting to hear what real owners have to say. Of course we could just go over to the AVS Forums nice long thread there.


I owned both, since MCE was a disaster, and I came running back to TiVo. Wish I had known what a mess MCE was in the first place, but at least most of the money I dropped on the MCE machine is still useful as an HTPC...


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> Yes would be interesting to hear what real owners have to say. Of course we could just go over to the AVS Forums nice long thread there.


 Be careful about that, it's turning into another They eat their young thread over at AVS..


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> I find it rather amusing that you continue to promote MCE, which is basically a dead product at this point. A big part of the reason is that it's near impossible to set up. Yes, I technically got mine working, but it was a glitchy PITA, and my computer and networking skills are in the top couple of percent in the general population, and I couldn't get it working right. It wasn't a marketable product, even for the tech savvy.
> 
> What's even funnier is that you come on a TiVo forum to sing the praises about MCE.


Promotion implies that I started the discussion. I've only commented about WMC after someone else has mentioned it first. I was a Tivo user long before I started tinkering with HTPCs so I still have my roots here and a long-time fondness for Tivos and DVRs in general.

FYI - the death of WMC is greatly exagerrated. It will continue to be a viable product for as long as guide data is available or providers completely change their method of delivering content to your home. In other words, it will still be around for many years to come, regardless of how you feel about it. There just won't be any future updates to the software.

What's funny is that you claim WMC is impossible to set up. You do realize that it takes you by the hand and guides you through it, right? What continues to boggle my mind is that you claim to be this tech savvy individual, but you can't seem to follow a simple set of instructions. If you're trying to set up some exotic feature then it might increase the difficulty level, but only slightly. There are countless tutorials and guides on the web that are available to help you with virtually any WMC modification or tweak. This isn't the rocket science you make it out to be. It just isn't that hard.

Of course, if you have hardware issues or conflicting drivers, then by all means, blame WMC. A fresh reinstall of Windows tends to fix most WMC problems 99% of the time. If that doesn't do it then you need to look elsewhere.



Bigg said:


> I owned both, since MCE was a disaster, and I came running back to TiVo. Wish I had known what a mess MCE was in the first place, but at least most of the money I dropped on the MCE machine is still useful as an HTPC...


I'd be curious to know exactly what you're using your HTPC for if you're not using WMC. Are you using a different DVR app or just using it for media playback, such as music and videos? What front end and apps are you using?

The main reason I use WMC is because it's currently the only way to record encrypted content on a HTPC. I've never made any claims that it's the best DVR app available, but I've only tried a few so I have very little to compare it with. In fact, if it hadn't been for the introduction of the Ceton Cablecard tuners, I'd probably still be using BeyondTV on Windows XP. Talk about your dead products.  There are several other front ends that are supposedly better for DVR use, but they aren't certified by CableLabs and thereby limits their usability.



slowbiscuit said:


> For the 14th million time - no, it's not and there wouldn't be an entire website dedicated to it (TGB) if it was. Please stop extrapolating your experience as if it is everyone's, because it's not.


Actually, there are lots of websites dedicated to HTPCs and WMC:

http://www.missingremote.com/

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/

http://www.hack7mc.com/

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

http://www.kaashoek.com/comskip/

http://www.assassinserver.com/

And many more beyond this.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Promotion implies that I started the discussion. I've only commented about WMC after someone else has mentioned it first. I was a Tivo user long before I started tinkering with HTPCs so I still have my roots here and a long-time fondness for Tivos and DVRs in general.


WHAT? You're still promoting MCE by the way you post about it.



> FYI - the death of WMC is greatly exagerrated. It will continue to be a viable product for as long as guide data is available or providers completely change their method of delivering content to your home. In other words, it will still be around for many years to come, regardless of how you feel about it. There just won't be any future updates to the software.


It's orphaned, and unless it's available in Windows 9, which all indications are that it will not be, it will die for good on January 10, 2023. However, for all practical purposes, it's dead now, as there's no support, upgrades, or anything else for it.



> What's funny is that you claim WMC is impossible to set up. You do realize that it takes you by the hand and guides you through it, right? What continues to boggle my mind is that you claim to be this tech savvy individual, but you can't seem to follow a simple set of instructions. If you're trying to set up some exotic feature then it might increase the difficulty level, but only slightly. There are countless tutorials and guides on the web that are available to help you with virtually any WMC modification or tweak. This isn't the rocket science you make it out to be. It just isn't that hard.


First of all, the entire UI is completely idiotic, and it's difficult to find anything in it, or even figure out what the UI elements mean. It's completely inconsistent with anything else I've ever used, Mac, Windows, iOS, Android, Mainframe, ANYTHING. Then there's two separate setups needed, one for CableCard device drivers, then the one through MCE. I got mine setup and working, but for a normal person, it would be basically impossible to wade through.



> Of course, if you have hardware issues or conflicting drivers, then by all means, blame WMC. A fresh reinstall of Windows tends to fix most WMC problems 99% of the time. If that doesn't do it then you need to look elsewhere.


Mine was on a COMPLETELY fresh install of Windows on a BRAND NEW computer. I blame Microsoft, not MCE specifically. They built MCE, and they built Windows. You can't detach the MCE Microsoft from the Windows Microsoft when they are the same Microsoft. My HTPC is still unreliable to this day, with audio driver problems. Luckily, it's not in the critical path of much of anything now.



> I'd be curious to know exactly what you're using your HTPC for if you're not using WMC. Are you using a different DVR app or just using it for media playback, such as music and videos? What front end and apps are you using?


VLC and Windows Explorer, and once in a blue moon internet streaming of something that's not available in any other format.



> The main reason I use WMC is because it's currently the only way to record encrypted content on a HTPC. I've never made any claims that it's the best DVR app available, but I've only tried a few so I have very little to compare it with. In fact, if it hadn't been for the introduction of the Ceton Cablecard tuners, I'd probably still be using BeyondTV on Windows XP. Talk about your dead products.  There are several other front ends that are supposedly better for DVR use, but they aren't certified by CableLabs and thereby limits their usability.


Right. At best, they can't get HBO, if you're lucky enough to have a cable provider that uses the copy flags correctly.

TiVo is really the only game in town for owning your own DVR at this point. MCE is dead. It brought up the client/server model that every major MSO plus TiVo has now adopted, and we can thank M$ and their kludgy product for that, but as a product itself, it's dead.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> My HTPC is still unreliable to this day, with audio driver problems.


This, in a nutshell, makes it all crystal clear for me.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> This, in a nutshell, makes it all crystal clear for me.


Yep. It pretty much says it all.

What's funny is that my wife is a complete moron when it comes to technology and computers, yet she's able to use WMC with virtually no problems. I say virtually because if there's any way she can get into trouble with anything technical, she'll find it. Any issues she's ever had have been mostly related to hitting the wrong input button on the remote and not the use of WMC.


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