# Considering TiVo again. How spammy has it become?



## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

I used TiVo years ago and I liked it. But the interface was slow and I eventually gave it away to a relative who still uses it to this day.

In the past couple of years, I've been using the Cox DVR. But frankly, I hate how much it works against me. I turn the TV/DVR on and get their PPV ads by default. (I swear I changed the starting channel, but it changed back.) I can't remove the tons of the unwanted channels and the unsubscribed channels from their program guide. I'm convinced that they've put advertising their own awesome lineup over any real considerations like usability. (I can only filter channels out from up/down channel surfing.) I have no hope that Cox will put the customer experience first. Using their DVR only reinforces that you need to purchase channels or programs from Cox.

So I want to consider a TiVo again. But I have to wonder: around the time I left TiVo, they started to become spammy and in love with advertisements in addition to the paid monthly service fee. Today, how is TiVo's love affair with advertising revenues playing out?

Above all, I want to purchase a DVR that puts *me* first, and has little in the way of distractions and annoyances. How much will today's TiVo serve me, and how much and in what ways will it serve a different master?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

From the stickied *TCF TivoHD FAQ*:



> *Is there advertising in the UI? If so, what does it look like? Can it be disabled?*
> 
> There is no advertising in the program guide. TiVo frequently posts an ad at the bottom of its main menu, as seen below:
> 
> ...





> *I just got the TiVo and it seems kind of slow. Will responsiveness improve with newer software?*
> 
> Yes, TiVo significantly improved performance in v9.4 (July, 2008) and again in v11.0 (Dec, 2008).
> 
> ...


Of course, TiVo allows you to remove any channels you do not want, so (a) you don't see them in the guide, and (b) they are skipped when you channel up/down. TiVo also allows you to define a separate favorites list; my current program guide shows just 50-60 favorite channels.

See the FAQ linked above for screenshots and videos, or the AVS version for even more screenshots (TCF has image linking limits, AVS does not).


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## MaryT (Dec 3, 2001)

I've loved my Tivo since the day I got the first one in 2000.

That said, I find the ads on cable programming for upcoming shows far more bothersome than a few ads on a menu that I don't have to look at.

Bravo has become the worst for those ads in the corner which take up a good deal of real estate and have started to block too much of the picture.


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## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

bkdtv said:


> Of course, TiVo allows you to remove any channels you do not want, so (a) you don't see them in the guide, and (b) they are skipped when you channel up/down. TiVo also allows you to define a separate favorites list; my current program guide shows just 50-60 favorite channels.


What you showed me is a little of what has me worried. When I purchased my HDR212, it had no advertisements. Then, they started adding in a main menu advertisement, and some special channel advertisement, and some commercial tie-in thing. So the latest HD models still have the main menu advertisement, but it looks like they just added a pause screen advertisement, you say?

I'm just have some hesitation/concern that I'm not going to have control over the new ways that TiVo decides to annoy me. I'm kind of locked-in, you know?


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

Here is a typical pause ad:









I really ignore these for the most part. Some people find them so annoying that they go on endless rants about it.

Plus you may see this from time to time if you watch commercials:









For all the TiVo does these ads don't bother me one bit.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Of course those with a harmony or other programmable remote can program "Pause" to be "Pause then Down Arrow" and the pause ads will not show.


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## jmccorm (Oct 8, 2000)

jkalnin said:


> I really ignore these for the most part. Some people find them so annoying that they go on endless rants about it.


Sadly, Cox has sensitized me to the point where I just want a consumer device that doesn't have its own agenda. I appreciate the advice on bypassing the pause commercials, but I think it points to a future with this particular vendor where I'm going to have to continue to fight (and by no means certainly win) to have it maintain a neutral presentation and stick to the device functionality that I desire. Unfortunate for me.

Hey, thanks, all, for your time. To keep my search for a new DVR on-topic, I'll probably head out to the AVS Forum's DVR section unless you all can suggest a better place to explore my DVR options.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

jmccorm said:


> Sadly, Cox has sensitized me to the point where I just want a consumer device that doesn't have its own agenda.


Whenever you purchase something, figure that the seller always has their own agenda, and not just in existence to serve yours.



jmccorm said:


> Hey, thanks, all, for your time. To keep my search for a new DVR on-topic, I'll probably head out to the AVS Forum's DVR section unless you all can suggest a better place to explore my DVR options.


If you plan on sticking with HD cable, there is a remarkably small list. Good luck.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmccorm said:


> Hey, thanks, all, for your time. To keep my search for a new DVR on-topic, I'll probably head out to the AVS Forum's DVR section unless you all can suggest a better place to explore my DVR options.


Really you have MOXI and TiVo or Sat broadcasters to pick from. Moxi is so new that they have no where near enough eyeballs for advertisers so they will be add free for a while still.

as for TiVo and ads - the ads make me do nothing different with my remote to use the DVR except for the little ads in now playing folders, and not much of those either. I think that is by design from TiVo - they understand the balancing act of end users versus content owners who need ads to pay for making the content. Like weeds ads will always be looking for a place and it wont be a place you want them but overall ads on TiVo are just things you overlook unless you want to interact with them.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

The worst part is the slow interface. Otherwise the ads are tolerable.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The ads are freaking obnoxious, but still considerably less so than what it sounds like you have with the Cox DVR, and than what I've seen with, e.g., the DirecTV HR22.

If you want real control, and zero ads, you'll have to build your own DVR.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

wmcbrine said:


> The ads are freaking obnoxious, but still considerably less so than what it sounds like you have with the Cox DVR, and than what I've seen with, e.g., the DirecTV HR22.


What ads did you see on HR22? There are no pause ads, there are no guide ads (except channel 1000 is highlighted with a banner ad for on-demand), there are no play list ads. You can get to ads if you go to interactive channel, but the only reason to go to interactive channel is to see ads for new movies or to see what people are watching (DirecTV has neat application that shows top 5 shows that people are watching in different categories).


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

There are no ads of any kind in the TiVo guide.

Did DirecTV remove the in-guide ads and banners? There are a number of threads on the subject at DBSTalk, such as this and this.










That sort of scrolling ad is much more annoying than anything on the TiVo, imo.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> Did DirecTV remove the in-guide ads and banners?


Not as of a couple of weeks ago.



> _That sort of scrolling ad is much more annoying than anything on the TiVo, imo._


+1

Although the in-group ads are a contender.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

These ads are the ones I mentioned. These are channel 1000 ads for on-demand. They are not scrolling, but you do see them when you scroll in a guide. You do not see them in a lower channel range nor do you see them in 500 range (pay channel range) any longer. You see them in a PPV and interactive range (101-199). If it was not a banner, it would be just channel 1000 in it's normal position. You don't see them at all unless you select "all channels", or "PPV" options of the guide. These banners advertise on-demand shows and are in a proper place to bring your attention to the PPV or preview event advertised on channel 1000. Some people even like them, but I couldn't care less about them. My preference would be just a regular line in a guide.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Videodrome said:


> The worst part is the slow interface. Otherwise the ads are tolerable.


It sounds to me like the originator used a series 1. Series 1s (of which I still use one somewhat) are GLACIALLY slow compared to TivoHD (the current hardware of course).



jmccorm said:


> Sadly, Cox has sensitized me to the point where I just want a consumer device that doesn't have its own agenda.


Obviously this forum is likely to be filled with more Tivo fans than haters, but I still will express this. Based upon what you have said, I think that Tivo is still a FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR lesser of evils compared with your existing cable DVR.

1) Tivo lets you turn off channels you don't receive/don't want to ever see in the guide or record from (though you could still type in the channel # if you really wanted to go to it)
2) Tivo does not have ads in the same way that cable boxes have ads (based upon the pictures someone else showed in this thread and what I've seen elsewhere). They're WAY more plastered with ads.
3) You can get a lifetime subscription for Tivos, so you don't pay monthly.

BTW, I appreciate Moxi as a competitor, but it:
1) doesn't do OTA at all
2) won't record analog channels without an adapter and even with an adapter only records 1 analog channel at a time.. I realize this is probably moot to most people.
(An *advantage* of Moxi is that you apparently can do 'manual clear QAM mapping' which Tivos do not do.)

Also, I believe the only "personal computer DVR" that will deal with cablecards (which are required to record any premium channel, including HD channels and anything beyond the basic tier) is something running Windows, and it may have other restrictions you don't like.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

mattack said:


> BTW, I appreciate Moxi as a competitor, but it:
> 1) doesn't do OTA at all
> 2) won't record analog channels without an adapter and even with an adapter only records 1 analog channel at a time.. I realize this is probably moot to most people.


If you're going to say that recording only one analog channel at a time is a disadvantage of Moxi, you need to say that the TivoHD currently cannot reliably record *any* analog channels (due to a horrible bug in 11.x software that has not been fixed since 11.0 was first released). :down:


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NotVeryWitty said:


> If you're going to say that recording only one analog channel at a time is a disadvantage of Moxi, you need to say that the TivoHD currently cannot reliably record *any* analog channels (due to a horrible bug in 11.x software that has not been fixed since 11.0 was first released). :down:


I have 2 TiVo HD DVRs and both record analog wth no hassles. I have seen the gray screen 3 times over the course of a year on one. The other has been rock solid. The 'bug' you mention is not on every TiVo HD by a long shot. to say TiVo HD can record 2 analog channels at once is very valid.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

NotVeryWitty said:


> If you're going to say that recording only one analog channel at a time is a disadvantage of Moxi, you need to say that the TivoHD currently cannot reliably record *any* analog channels (due to a horrible bug in 11.x software that has not been fixed since 11.0 was first released). :down:


If you're going to completely damn a software version, you have to be a bit more accurate.

I have a TivoHD with 11.x that does nothing BUT reliably record analog cable, day in, day out, and has no issues, so let's please keep the FUD at a minimum here.

Diane


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

MaryT said:


> That said, I find the ads on cable programming for upcoming shows far more bothersome than a few ads on a menu that I don't have to look at.
> 
> Bravo has become the worst for those ads in the corner which take up a good deal of real estate and have started to block too much of the picture.


Stamp. I tried to watch some of Blue Planet again which was playing on Planet Earth and the logo is so huge, not down discretely in the corner, that I had trouble getting past it. Of all cable channels, Planet Earth should be the one to have a discrete translucent logo tucked into the bottom corner - not the blazing in-your-face one that's worse than nearly everyone else.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I have 2 TiVo HD DVRs and both record analog wth no hassles. I have seen the gray screen 3 times over the course of a year on one. The other has been rock solid. The 'bug' you mention is not on every TiVo HD by a long shot. to say TiVo HD can record 2 analog channels at once is very valid.


IMO, 3 gray screens in a year is 3 times too many. I would expect that from a POS like the SA8300HD, not Tivo.



dianebrat said:


> If you're going to completely damn a software version, you have to be a bit more accurate.
> 
> I have a TivoHD with 11.x that does nothing BUT reliably record analog cable, day in, day out, and has no issues, so let's please keep the FUD at a minimum here.


Are you sure you're even recording analog cable (and not "Analog Digital Simulcast")? If you really are, I think you're in the minority regarding gray screen issues with the TivoHD.

And, why is it FUD to point out a problem with Tivo? I said that the TivoHD cannot reliably record analog, and that is true.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here's more information (from bkdtv's TivoHD sticky thread): http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7097497#post7097497


bkdtv said:


> Until this issue is resolved with an upcoming software update, *you should avoid the TivoHD if*:
> 
> 
> You are looking for a DVR to use exclusively with basic cable, and you are unwilling to get a CableCard; or
> ...


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

NotVeryWitty said:


> Are you sure you're even recording analog cable (and not "Analog Digital Simulcast")? If you really are, I think you're in the minority regarding gray screen issues with the TivoHD.
> 
> And, why is it FUD to point out a problem with Tivo? I said that the TivoHD cannot reliably record analog, and that is true.


A TivoHD that is hooked to analog cable with no CablesCARDs isn't going to record digital simulcast, so yes, I am quite sure I am recording analog cable.

My TivoHD can reliably record analog, as can many others, your statement is indeed incorrect. I don't dismiss that there may be some users that have an issue, but this is not a terminal issue on all TivoHD units. It's spreading FUD to imply the issue is a global showstopper.

Diane


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NotVeryWitty said:


> IMO, 3 gray screens in a year is 3 times too many. I would expect that from a POS like the SA8300HD, not Tivo.
> 
> Are you sure you're even recording analog cable (and not "Analog Digital Simulcast")? If you really are, I think you're in the minority regarding gray screen issues with the TivoHD.
> 
> ...


I know I am recording analog - no cable card at all in either TiVo HD. one TiVo HD has NEVER had this problem

the other had the 3 times in one year and they were speced out like months apart and I hvae not seen one since that little mini update. all 3 times a restart from the menu cleared it right up in a matter of minutes.

that equates to 99.999 reliability which is all any enterprise server aspires to as well.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> There are no ads of any kind in the TiVo guide.
> 
> Did DirecTV remove the in-guide ads and banners? There are a number of threads on the subject at DBSTalk, such as this and this.
> 
> ...





wmcbrine said:


> Not as of a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> +1
> 
> Although the in-group ads are a contender.


I don't get that. That's the only place you will ever see an ad with DirecTV, with Tivo they add them where ever they can fit them.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

NotVeryWitty said:


> If you're going to say that recording only one analog channel at a time is a disadvantage of Moxi, you need to say that the TivoHD currently cannot reliably record *any* analog channels (due to a horrible bug in 11.x software that has not been fixed since 11.0 was first released). :down:


BTW, is this problem somehow only affecting TivoHD and not the Series 3?

I used to hit this problem very often (I think at least once a week) and it was really ticking me off.. I now have my TivoHD on cablecards, so obviously it isn't having the problem.

But my Series 3, which is only on analog, hasn't had the problem in so long that I don't remember how long (many many many months).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

But that ad is *intruding* in your ability to scroll around. At least so far, the ads are showing up at the bottom of things/out of the way in 'normal' usage. (Personally, I'm considering the pause ad out of the way too -- because the time bar itself bugs me almost as much as the pause ad, e.g. when I'm trying to ff through CNN and catch some of the ticker at the bottom.. So in BOTH cases I would/do hit clear to get rid of the time bar and ad.)

The other Tivo ads are at the bottom of various menus -- admittedly that DOES get in the way of the very helpful "->" shortcut which virtually everywhere goes between the top and bottom of any menu..

But I guess I'm just used to it. Would I be happier without it? Yes, but based upon my limited use of cable DVRs / cable boxes, I far prefer what I have now... and in fact would almost certainly go back to *entirely* "vcr-like" manual recording if Tivo disappeared.


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## equinexus (Dec 17, 2009)

You have to pay the service fees forever, you have to pay for the box, AND you have to put up with ads all over! If I'm paying for the schedule updates I shouldn't have to watch advertisements.

Simple rule, you watch ads and get something for free or your pay and don't have to watch ads. TiVo doesn't seem to get this.

I got my first TiVo in 2000 but I'm done.

I'm getting a Moxi.

I suggest everyone else do the same.

Oh, and join me in a new class action lawsuit against TiVo for restricting manual recording on a device that the customer OWNS. I do not say this in jest. I've talked to attorneys and there is a very good case to be made. We're signing up people now. PM me.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

equinexus said:


> You have to pay the service fees forever, you have to pay for the box, AND you have to put up with ads all over! If I'm paying for the schedule updates I shouldn't have to watch advertisements.
> 
> Simple rule, you watch ads and get something for free or your pay and don't have to watch ads. TiVo doesn't seem to get this.
> 
> ...


Meh. Lots of misinformation in this post.

I paid for my service upfront, so I know I won't be paying "forever".

I'm not sure where your ad "rule" is written. Care to share where you found it?

Unless you were able to record unrestricted using a TiVo DVR (without subscription, I'm assuming you're talking about), and now you can't, I don't think your case is going anywhere. There is a service agreement when you purchase a TiVo DVR. If you didn't read it and expect more functionality then what you agreed too, good luck with that!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

equinexus said:


> Oh, and join me in a new class action lawsuit against TiVo for restricting manual recording on a device that the customer OWNS. I do not say this in jest. I've talked to attorneys and there is a very good case to be made. We're signing up people now. PM me.


You can get lifetime subscriptons.. I have.

That is a ridiculous thing to sue about... Tivo makes it very clear nowadays(*) that the service is required for it use.

(*) and when it wasn't clear, on S1s, those do allow usage without service.. though IMHO in most respects, using a tivo to only do manual records has MUCH WORSE usability than other devices *intended* to do manual recordings.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

equinexus said:


> You have to pay the service fees forever, you have to pay for the box,


You seem to forget that TiVo subsidizes its hardware (i.e. sells it at a loss).

There is no denying that Moxi is now the more cost effective product for digital-only cable. That said, you also pay the service fee with Moxi. Moxi includes a lifetime subscription in their purchase price of $500 ($630 if you want an analog tuner). The bundled lifetime subscription is why the Moxi costs $500 and not $200 or $300.

If you want to compare apples to apples, then you must compare a TiVo with lifetime subscription. That's what Moxi is selling. A feeless TivoHD costs $250+$399 = $640 if you are a first-time customer, or $250+299 = $540 if you already have another subscription. If you need support for analog channels ($130 extra on Moxi), the price of both feeless products is virtually identical.

The TiVo hardware costs more to build than the Moxi hardware. Why? Because is based on an older, more complex design. TiVo has OTA tuners and a larger, more costly logic board with analog tuners, analog/digital converters, and [email protected] encoders (for analog recording). The Moxi has none of those things.



equinexus said:


> AND you have to put up with ads all over! If I'm paying for the schedule updates I shouldn't have to watch advertisements.


[Digeo couldn't make money on Moxi @ $800, so they sold the company to Arris.]

TiVo has ads because they weren't making money with the current pricing on the hardware and subscription. TiVo likely wants to reduce its dependence on costly subscriptions in the future, and advertising and ratings services (if successful) are ways to do that. Advertising and ratings revenues could eventually reduce the money TiVo needs to recoup on the hardware and software, allowing lower-cost cost designs to be sold for $299-$399 without a separate subscription.

It is a bit of an exaggeration to say that the ads are "all over," as there aren't any ads in the guide or on the main NPL listing. The most obtrusive ad -- perhaps the only obtrusive ad -- is on pause, and that can be hidden. There's the ad in the TiVo menu, but few people seem to have a problem with that; you can bypass that menu and its ad by going straight to the NPL. See the TiVo Owners FAQ to learn more.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

equinexus said:


> Oh, and join me in a new class action lawsuit against TiVo for restricting manual recording on a device that the customer OWNS. I do not say this in jest. I've talked to attorneys and there is a very good case to be made. We're signing up people now. PM me.












The lawyer fees would probably cost more than you would get back from a class action suit.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

I barely notice the ads are there at all. They are so unobtrusive it's laughable that people complain. But some need something, we all know those people. If it helps TiVo that's fine for me.

Moxi is newer, YES. Moxi has a flashier newer GUI, YES. Moxi has faster basic hardware, YES. Moxi has that MoxiMate box deal, YES. Moxi is cheaper, YES. Moxi has a 3 tuner DVR, YES.

TiVo still is considered the best DVR by pro reviewers, even with all it's faults, YES. TiVo has better/more functionality than any other DVR, YES.

If TiVo has going, all the things I've heard it's got going, things should be good next year. BUT!!!! - - TiVo needs to get it's butt in gear and quit taking so long for everything. Time is ticking and it's not going TiVo's way. So let's get going TiVo and stop horsing around.

It shouldn't take two years to write software for DirecTV DVR's. You're TiVo for crying out loud!!!

P.S. Hey TiVo! You figured out Comcast just screwed you over, right? Three years and you got how many subscribers off those POS Comcast DVR's? You realize that Comcast laughs behind your back. They avoided the DishTV treatment for what? TiVo chasing it's tail on those Comcast DVR's and you probably lost money wasting your time.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

deandashl said:


> P.S. Hey TiVo! You figured out Comcast just screwed you over, right? Three years and you got how many subscribers off those POS Comcast DVR's? You realize that Comcast laughs behind your back. They avoided the DishTV treatment for what? TiVo chasing it's tail on those Comcast DVR's and you probably lost money wasting your time.


umm - Comcast *paid for* the R&D on the Comcast DVR that TiVo is now free to benefit from in creating a tru2way series 4.



equinexus said:


> Oh, and join me in a new class action lawsuit against TiVo for restricting manual recording on a device that the customer OWNS. I do not say this in jest. I've talked to attorneys and there is a very good case to be made. We're signing up people now. PM me.


hehehehehehehehe - there is a service agreement in place for the *software* that TiVo supplied. You are free to strip the software off the drive and put on your own software to record with at any time. You simply have no legal right to use TiVo proprietary parts of the included software without a service agreement. whatever lawyer you talked with is either incompetent or conning you for billing purposes. Have fun with that.

Can we get some knowledgeable trolls over here please?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> whatever lawyer you talked with is either incompetent or conning you for billing purposes. Have fun with that.


Good call, but given that the PP didn't name the lawyer coordinating the class-action (something which is perfectly permissible and appropriate in an online forum -- not a breach of privacy or anything like that), I'd sooner believe that the PP is misrepresenting the bit about what a lawyer said, either changing it from what a lawyer really said, or expressing what PP hoped that a lawyer would say.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Can we get some knowledgeable trolls over here please?


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I dont see much spam on tivo at all, theres pop thing on some ads. 
But tivo does need the money so i dont have a problem with it..

a cable dvr had ads on every screen.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

equinexus said:


> You have to pay the service fees forever, you have to pay for the box, AND you have to put up with ads all over! If I'm paying for the schedule updates I shouldn't have to watch advertisements.
> 
> Simple rule, you watch ads and get something for free or your pay and don't have to watch ads. TiVo doesn't seem to get this.
> 
> ...


WOW!! This the first newbie I've seen come on here and announce his class action lawsuit is AT LEAST A MONTH!!! In the highly unlikely case this went anywhere, the lawyer will make some money and you'll get a buck and a quarter. I wish I had the time to pursue such foolishness!


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