# Pin Protection On All Movie Channels???



## WeeClare

Hi all, having read some articles in forums relating to Virgin and Sky i have heard that Sky maybe putting pin protection on more movie channels.
If this happens it will probably be the same for Virgin whom i am with.
What is going to happen when i want to record cause at the moment it only applies to movies 9?

Cheers Clare


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## ColinYounger

Clare - I don't know for certain, but as I understand it, the PIN is on Sky *boxes*. VirginMedia have their own 'Parental protection' with which I doubt they'll mirror Sky's implementation.


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## WeeClare

Hi, just switched on my telly and discovered that Sky Movies 1,2 and 7 are now pin protected. When you go to the channel a message appears asking you for your pin to view 12, 15 and 18 rated movies thoroughout the day, basically you can't view anything without a pin before 9pm i think - a whole 4 movies now.

I have tried everything but to no avail, so it seems we are all stuck with this. It's not fair, considering it's sky who takes my £10 subscription every moth so they know the score, might have to email them and see what they say.

The 3 channels that require the pin now run from 4pm and 5pm (+1 channel) so if i am out i can only record from 6 of the movie channels - Sky have also got rid of the 2 cinema channels too.


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## Automan

Also less channels and shorter hours.
I suspect they are using the bandwidth for Anytime.

I think the PIN issue is going to be a big with our Tivo boxes with Sky movie channels 

Automan.


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## iankb

I think I may have just found a valid excuse to cancel my movie subscription.


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## atari_addict

Automan said:


> I think the PIN issue is going to be a big with our Tivo boxes with Sky movie channels
> 
> Automan.


Fiddling around Wednesday night to check that TiVo's email and the actual channel lineup matched (I had to add one channel), all the movie channels required at the minimum a press of the red button on the cable box remote to actually view the channel. Obviously, that's going to completely ruin any unattended recordings from any of these channels 

I do, however, wonder how the V+ drives cope with this sort of thing. Presumably they record bitstreams which will only be decoded to view when played back by entry of the PIN code/pressing of the Red button?


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## cwaring

atari_addict said:


> I do, however, wonder how the V+ drives cope with this sort of thing. Presumably they record bitstreams which will only be decoded to view when played back by entry of the PIN code/pressing of the Red button?


Yes. I believe that is correct. (Don't have one so can't confirm it though )


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## JudyB

We don't have any of the premium Sky movie channels, so I'm just guessing here, but is this "new" PIN protection simply the same problem we have had for a while now with channels such as TCM?
From what has been said it seems to be a simple extension of the same problem to more channels. What does surprise me is that it wasn't implemented earlier on the premium channels, given that they have claimed that Ofcom "forced" them to implement the PIN protection...


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## slimjime17

This is really crap, I don't understand why I can't turn this feature off on the cable box.

I wonder if a tivo web module could be written to add the pin number.


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## atari_addict

slimjime17 said:


> This is really crap, I don't understand why I can't turn this feature off on the cable box.
> 
> I wonder if a tivo web module could be written to add the pin number.


I can sort-of see the rationale behind this, although I agree that for us it's a PITA.

As for a module, leaving aside the need to emulate the Red button on the original remote, a PIN code isn't always necessary to watch the actual film (according to my very limited experience do far), so I can see a problem if they are issued willy-nilly.

If it was to work however, you'd be left with an authorised recording which could (theoretically) be watched by anyone at all with access to your TiVo IYSWIM.


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## cwaring

slimjime17 said:


> This is really crap, I don't understand why I can't turn this feature off on the cable box.


I understand that when the code-migration is complete (ie everyone's on the new VM-branded EPG) then there will indeed be the functionality to switch the feature off; or something like that.


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## Automan

With the Sky platform I don't think we will get an option to turn off the requirement for a pin to view items in realtime (pin can be turned off for playback of recorded items including 18 rated on Sky+ / Sky HD).

Granted a Tivo module could be created to enter a preset pin after a channel change.

However it does not always ask for the pin straight away.
e.g. with pre-start padding on the item before (or adds) may have been "U" rated and thus no pin needed till the feature starts.

Also a pin would have to be selected which would not cause the box to select another channel - I think 0000 has been suggested in other threads.

Again if you have post-padding I suspect sometimes when Tivo needs to change to another channel to make a recording it may be stuck on the "enter pin" message if the next item on the current channel requires a pin.

I suspect the usefulness of our Tivo's for movie channels could soon be over 

Automan.


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## Tony Hoyle

Automan said:


> Granted a Tivo module could be created to enter a preset pin after a channel change.


Already exists.. although I don't have the movie channels any more so I'm not working on it any more. The Pin problem was one of the reasons I gave for cancelling.


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## -MC-

Thats what I use - seems to work OK, ( but I dont use padding)

Its also very usefull as it will start the recording on the Sky HD box if the program is an HD channel as well as having an SD version recorded on the Tivo

See -
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333397


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## Raisltin Majere

Automan said:


> With the Sky platform I don't think we will get an option to turn off the requirement for a pin to view items in realtime (pin can be turned off for playback of recorded items including 18 rated on Sky+ / Sky HD).
> 
> Granted a Tivo module could be created to enter a preset pin after a channel change.
> 
> However it does not always ask for the pin straight away.
> e.g. with pre-start padding on the item before (or adds) may have been "U" rated and thus no pin needed till the feature starts.
> 
> Also a pin would have to be selected which would not cause the box to select another channel - I think 0000 has been suggested in other threads.
> 
> Again if you have post-padding I suspect sometimes when Tivo needs to change to another channel to make a recording it may be stuck on the "enter pin" message if the next item on the current channel requires a pin.
> 
> I suspect the usefulness of our Tivo's for movie channels could soon be over
> 
> Automan.


I haven't used the latest endpad, but doesn't it have the capability for channel specific padding? So if a channel requires a pin, you could have no padding?

And don't the movie channels have, say, two hour slots for 1.5 hour shows, the rest taken up by ads/promo material, this would negate the problem with end padding you mention, wouldn't it?


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## OzSat

Just a reminder that the PIN requiremnent on daytime transmissions is an OFCOM requirement.

The PIN is required for Cert 12 and above on any platform.


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## aerialplug

Sadly I've had to cancel Sky Movies because of this problem. Many movies being shown on all of the channels during the day are now post watershed and ask for a PIN thus rendering the TiVo/sky box combination completely useless until the PIN number is keyed in.

It may be a mandetory requirement from OFCOM but not giving me the option to opt out is also a major problem as far as TiVo/automated external recording is concerned and in my opinion there should at least be the ability to opt out of the scheme (like Sky+ boxes can do for material stored on the hard drive).


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## blindlemon

Doesn't OfCom know about PVRs then?


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## 6022tivo

Best to cancel now I think, PPV works well.

Have noticed loads of films require the pin, but not at set times, if something could be written for the tivo, the tivo would not know when to do the red button then the pin.

Shame really, I hope when my box gets the virgin media firmware, I can switch it off somehow.


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## Mark Bennett

My household consists of one 45 year old, and one 36 year old.

Somehow both of us think we are old enough to be able to decide what we watch ourselves...


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## TCM2007

Ofcom disagree..


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## SwissDude

I hate politicians that create laws "for your comfort and safety"...


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## OzSat

Ofcom has to show it does something.


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## blindlemon

SwissDude said:


> I hate politicians that create laws "for your comfort and safety"...


Ah yes, the "for your own good" laws.

In the UK we now have to employ an electrician to change a light bulb 

(well, not quite, but not far from it)


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## aerialplug

Here's my story so far in my attempt to cancel movies...

Called Sky on their Customer Service number. Well, actually not the one listed on the card that they'd like you to use (0870 number) but on 01506 831782 which is the same thing except that being a geographic number, I don't get charged for the privilage of calling them at national rate as I have free off-peak and weekend calls to all geographic numbers.

Anyway - as expected, I was put through to someone in India who didn't have a clue what TiVo was and couldn't even be made to understand how I was recording something from the box and repeatedly told me that playback on Sky+ wouldn't be affected.

The phrase "cancel Sky Movies. Now." had a more immediate effect. I was put through to someone with an english accent (presumably now in the UK). This was the "why would you possibly want to cancel" department. After explaining to me that cancelling the £16 a month Sky movies subscription, I'd still have to pay £10 for Sky+ so why bother... I repeatedly tried to explain that I used TiVo and that once TiVo tried recording a programme on the Movie channels it locked up. Again, a complete lack of understanding of the problem having once again never heard of TiVo.

Funny that, they were actively recommending it a few years ago.

Anyway, they decided that rather than cancelling my subscription, the techincal department may be able to help. So I was put through there.

Technical department once again took some convincing that there was a problem in the first place - they seemed to take the attitude of "you've got Sky+ so why bother recording any other way". I don't think they believed me when I said that TiVo was leagues better than Sky+. As with other departments I was put on hold while the person consulted with their colleagues.

Eventually they said that there must be a way of turning off the PIN completely but they didn't know how to do it so they would pass me on to the second level technical support!

Again placed on hold, again having explain in detail the problem, but this time a solution was offered. I was assured that they could turn off ALL PIN controls at their end and that they would do so. It would take about an hour for this to take place but after this no PIN would be required for any programmes.

24 hours later and I'm still being asked for a PIN for Footloose on Sky Modern.

I'm about to go through the whole process again, this time insisting on cancelling Sky Movies.


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## Zaichik

I cancelled Sky Movies about a week before the channel changes were announced because I was finding it hard to find any movies at all that I wanted to watch, and, when I did, the only times I could set TiVo to record them was in the middle of the night when they would be broadcast with sign language. (Call me narrow minded, but I really don't understand why broadcasters do this - are there really that many deaf people that can't access subtitles, which at least are optional?)

Now it's even worse and totally not worth even half of the £16 a month they charge.


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## aerialplug

Okey, second time was a lot quicker. I got put through to the right department relatively quickly and after a small amount of time explaining that any movies I'd recorded would automatically be removed from Sky+ if I cancelled the movie subscription, they went ahead and cancelled.

I asked why all these changes had taken place (mainly about the fact that many channels were now not 24 hours as they were before but the charge for the package was the same). I was told that after a customer review panel, the panel indicated that they preffered this delivery method.

I somehow suspect something was twisted here - I'd never say I'd be willing to pay the same/more for less.

I explained that I wanted it to be made clear I wasn't cancelling because of the new way the movie channels were being presented (split into clear genre channels). I like this idea in fact. I wanted it to be made clear that the ONLY reason I was cancelling was because of the PIN "protection" and suggested that I'd re-subscribe if a menu item was introduced that would disable this enforcement.

Whist deleting these from the TiVo lineup I noticed that all the movie channels have new callsigns on TiVo. I guess they'll be requiring new logos too (however the very fact that I've been forced to cancel the package negates this too, I guess!)


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## iankb

aerialplug said:


> I was put through to someone with an english accent ...


That's unusual. It's normally a Scottish accent.


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## iankb

Yesterday evening, I recorded my first PIN-entry screen for a premier film.

What really, really annoys me about this whole fiasco, is that Sky seem to be blaiming this on OFCOM, and not on themselves.  

It's Sky that are not only choosing to broadcast 12+ films during the day when they could broadcast them later, but are also choosing to schedule all 14 broadcasts of a premier film during the week in the same early (or early+1) timeslot. Anybody with a modicum of sense would realise that they could rotate the schedules during the week, so at least one of the showings was at a more acceptable hour.

Even somebody who watches live TV would expect to be able to watch at a time convenient to them somewhen during the week. It's not as if these are films for children that require the early slots. They are forcing people to use Sky+.

It would seem that Sky's marketing of Sky+ is overruling all other factors, and to force people to use Sky+ to watch premier films for grown-ups is absolutely disgusting, and very anti-competitive.

I will now be suspending my Sky account.


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## iankb

Does anybody know what happens to the remaining part of the month's Sky subscription when you suspend an account.

Do you ...

Get the rest of the month?
Do they they refund the remaining amount?
Do they suspend it immediately and keep the money?


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## blindlemon

If you're reducing your package, they refund by way of a reduction in your next monthly bill. I don't know what they do in the case of a total suspension.


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## cwaring

Option 2 I would hope. That's what VM do, anyway. ie you get a pro-rata refund.


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## katman

I am currently pondering on this as well.

I have SKY+ with the Movies package so I get SKY+ for free.

I also have a multiroom sub for a second box that is connected to Tivo.

SKY+ records all the stuff for the rest of the family and occasionally a program for me when it clashes with Tivo as is currently the case with "The Apprentice" and "Grand Designs"

Tivo records MY programs and until now has also been used for movies.

The biggest failing of SKY+ is that it only has one MPEG decoder so can only display one thing at any time, either a live tuner feed or a recording from disk. Given that it can record two programs at once it is possible to fill the disk twice as fast as you can empty it. With three other family members filling SKY+ with their programs the chances of me getting playback access for 90-120 minutes to watch a movie are basically ZERO hence why Tivo has been the movie recording device of choice.

I am also trying to work out how many of the "paid for" channels we actually watch, I think it is very few but unfortunately they end up being 1 or 2 channels from each of the mixes so we would really need all 6 mixes if we kept SKY and the SKY+ box would be a standard digibox unless we paid the extra for the subscription. They really have people by the short and curlies. I wish there was a real alternative to SKY, cable isnt available where I am and freeview doesnt offer what I want to watch (mainly Discovery/NatGeo type programs).


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## aerialplug

iankb said:


> Does anybody know what happens to the remaining part of the month's Sky subscription when you suspend an account.
> 
> Do you ...
> 
> Get the rest of the month?
> Do they they refund the remaining amount?
> Do they suspend it immediately and keep the money?


You get a pro rata refund in the next month's bill. Movies disappeared about an hour after I asked them to cancel the service. I was told I can no longer make any reductions in my lineup for a month but can reinstate any service at any time 

Oh - and if you do cancel Sky Movies do NOT try to watch any you've recorded previously with Sky+ - the lack of permission to decrypt sends the box into a tizzy and all I could do was cycle the power to get it back working! They did warn me that I'd lose all the recordings I'd made on the movie channels before going through with the cancellation though.

Someone mentioned previously that surely Sky know that this causes problems to people, especially for those who video tape or record using an external VCR. You bet they do - but it hasn't stopped them in the past - look at the fiasco with the radio stations changing to start with leading 0s, something that TiVo can't handle (and remember Sky used to _recommend_ TiVo when they launched and of course they're the ones that deal with the trickle of complaints from annoyed TiVo customers too.

At least this time I can protest in a way that they feel - They're getting £6 less that they otherwise would out of me each month (£16 - £10 for Sky+ and to be honest Sky+ can go too but I'm contractually obliged to keep that for the first year). I remember a lot of people unsubscribing from Film Four as a protest when Channel 4 started putting a 4 logo permanantly on screen - the logo didn't last too long. sadly, I don't think this will work with Sky though as it only affects a very small group of people.


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## srcrothers

What really gets my goat is that they protect everything - missed a recording of "Lassie (PG)" the other day. E-mailed a complaint into Virgin but no response yet. Why cannot they take the pin requirement off films that do not need it and after the watershed then at least most of the movies I want would be accessible at some point [If I get the sort of crap reply I expect I considered complaining to OFT]. The other idea of the Premiere films being on at the same time every day also sucks, since my darling watches some of the soaps that interfere with the option to record some films I would like to record.


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## ndunlavey

It seems an absurd intrusion. Does anyone know what the reasonign behind it is? Is it a legal requirement, or are they just scared of being sued by some parent whose child has watched a PG film while they weren't being supervised properly?


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## cwaring

It's now an OFCOM requirement. Of course, I can't find the relevant document/page on their site right now, but that's no susprise 

Found it. (Okay, well someone in a Usenet group did )

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/mofaq/bdc/bcfaq/


OFCOM Broadcasting Code (issued May 2005) said:


> Premium Subscription Film Services may broadcast up to BBFC 15-rated films or their equivalent, at any time of day provided: - There is a protection system (a mandatory PIN or other equivalent protection) pre-2000 and post-0530, that seeks satisfactorily to restrict access soley to those authorised to view when material other than BBFC U-rated or PG- rated or their equivalents is shown; and - Those security systems which are in place to protect children are clearly explained to all subscribers.


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## Mark Bennett

cwaring said:


> It's now an OFCOM requirement. Of course, I can't find the relevant document/page on their site right now, but that's no susprise
> 
> Found it. (Okay, well someone in a Usenet group did )
> 
> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/mofaq/bdc/bcfaq/


So, clearly explaining that you have to turn on (or off?) a _selectable _pin protection would meet that - no?


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## cwaring

Hey don't look at me; I only posted the link  I don't have the Sky Movie channels at the moment either. Hopefully it will all be sorted for December, which is when I next plan to subscribe


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## aerialplug

cwaring said:


> It's now an OFCOM requirement.


It's not an OFCOM requirement to show post watershed films before 8 or 9pm and Sky have managed to do this for years so why change now? When I asked them why they had now made this change (including reducing the number of channels and time they're availalbe), the response was that they'd consulted viewers in special research groups and they had indicated that they'd prefer this.

Presumably this is the same research group they consulted that absolutely love having an onscreen logo that not only tells you what channel you're watching but also what you should be watching later on in the day/week...


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## Automan

And of course said no one wanted widescreen channels 

Automan.


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## stig007

Cheesed off with the same problem I contacted SKY today. Ater a couple of re-directions and the threat to cancel I got put through to a higher level of tech support. Luckily the guy had TIVO and was really helpful and knew what I was on about. He didn't know a way around the problem but said he might know someone at TIVO who did and would ring me if he got any info. I know what you're thinking but guess what ...15 minutes later he rang me to say that TIVO reckon SKY have just sorted the problem out and a fix is on it's way. He added it was a pity SKY didn't tell their own tech departments.


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## Mark Bennett

cwaring said:


> Hey don't look at me; I only posted the link


Definitely not having a go at you Carl


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## cwaring

I knew that. Hence the smiley


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## aerialplug

Cool! If they do sort this out I may well re-subscribe to the Movies again despite not watching a single movie from the movie channels since Sky was installed last December...  

I've got a Sky+ box that's 66% full of movies that I can't play and that crash the box when I do though...


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## aerialplug

stig007 said:


> Cheesed off with the same problem I contacted SKY today. Ater a couple of re-directions and the threat to cancel I got put through to a higher level of tech support.


This happened to me the first time round too - they said they were passing me through to "second degree tech support" - Sky's starting to sound like the Freemasons to me! Anyone made it to the third degree? Of course, if you had, you probably wouldn't be allowed to say so 

This was the tech support that assured me that they'd switch off all pin control via an over the air signal but it didn't work.


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## Automan

I cannot imagine Sky or Tivo coming up with a solution.

Only way out is for

1. All movie channels only show movies at timeslots where a pin would not be required.

2. Ofcom agree that an option for no pin can be added for household with no-one under 18 living in the household.

Option 2 would take months even being optomistic but would seem the most logical.

Also it should have been in place since the launch of pin control.

Automan.


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## aerialplug

Do OFCOM specifically prohibit a menu option to turn off the PIN protection? If not, it would be relatively easy for Sky to add it to the PIN control menu. After all, you can set it to watch material off the hard drive without asking for a pin - and this is almost as easy for a child to potentially access.


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## blindlemon

aerialplug said:


> I may well re-subscribe to the Movies again despite not watching a single movie from the movie channels since Sky was installed last December...


Now you're just *trying* to wind Pete77 up


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## PaulWilkinsUK

But isnt this whole practice slightly illegal ?
In a nutshell SKY is protecting its own interests by introducing these PIN requirements. If you've got a SKY+ box then you're fine, you get to enter the PIN when you go to watch the material, but if you have any other kit, then tough sh*t.
Isn't that against the competition laws? i.e. in order to 'record' these items then you have to use SKY's equipment.
Didn't Microsoft get a bashing for restricting its OS and browser integration?


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## Automan

Even with Sky+ or Sky HD you have to enter the PIN to view such an item in real time.

However once you have recorded the item you can set Sky+ or Sky HD to permit the recording to be played back at anytime without a PIN.

Automan.


PaulWilkinsUK said:


> But isnt this whole practice slightly illegal ?
> In a nutshell SKY is protecting its own interests by introducing these PIN requirements. If you've got a SKY+ box then you're fine, you get to enter the PIN when you go to watch the material, but if you have any other kit, then tough sh*t.
> Isn't that against the competition laws? i.e. in order to 'record' these items then you have to use SKY's equipment.
> Didn't Microsoft get a bashing for restricting its OS and browser integration?


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## iankb

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> But isnt this whole practice slightly illegal ?
> In a nutshell SKY is protecting its own interests by introducing these PIN requirements.


It shouldn't be illegal (i.e. anti-competitive) for Sky if this is a questionable but mandatory condition imposed by OFCOM. However, I consider it to be totally anti-competitive for Sky to intentionally broadcast all fourteen showings of a premier film out of hours so that only Sky+ can be used to record them. This is a total abuse of the OFCOM ruling.


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## iankb

It really is hard work trying to cancel a Sky subscription, but I finally made it. I had to reduce the subscription to the minimum, and then wait for 30 days for the cancellation to go through.

The best answer I had to the PIN number problem was from an ex-technical support person in their customer support department, who stated that I should be able to enter the pin number into my TiVo when I wanted to watch a recording, because the film would still have been recorded in the background. Doh! 

No guessing why he is ex technical support.


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## mjk

Almost as hard as trying to find out how to register a complaint on the OfCom website! Anyone figured it out yet?

I'm sure it used to be easier.


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## blindlemon

Sorry if this has been suggested before and dismissed, but surely the answer is for TiVo to release a new set of IR codes for Sky Digital and Sky+, which people can use instead of 20016 and 20017 if they want to, that add 0000 after every channel change...

They would be ignored on non PIN-protected content (giving a "channel unavailable" message), but would clear the PIN dialog just fine if you set your PIN to 0000 in the Sky menus. 

Or am I missing something?


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## -MC-

Hi see my post here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333397

(post #31)

Locking the Movie channels should make the 0000 pin reliable


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## cwaring

mjk said:


> Almost as hard as trying to find out how to register a complaint on the OfCom website! Anyone figured it out yet? I'm sure it used to be easier.


http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/

Or is that not what you meant?


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## blindlemon

-MC- said:


> Hi see my post here:


So what I'm suggesting is that TiVo make this available as alternative code-sets for people who don't have hacked TiVos or who don't want to install irblast.

Gary, would this be possible? It seems to take only a few days to get a new set of IR codes to support a new freeview box...


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## -MC-

Should work - and would react quicker than irblast, and by setting the pin lock on the movie channels the Sky box will reliably ask for the pin as soon as you change channel.

So down to Gary for a code set then !


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## atari_addict

-MC- said:


> Should work - and would react quicker than irblast, and by setting the pin lock on the movie channels the Sky box will reliably ask for the pin as soon as you change channel.
> 
> So down to Gary for a code set then !


It isn't just Sky boxes that are affected. My cable box has similar issues. As has been mentioned before, VM require you to press the Red button on the remote, and then enter the PIN.

The only and very rough work-around I've found so far is to go through this rigmarole beforehand. The PIN request won't come up again when TiVo requests a channel change to record. This does mean that you have to manually "back out" of the movie channel once it's finished recording using the "Back" or "TV" buttons on the cable box remote.


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## mjk

cwaring said:


> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/
> 
> Or is that not what you meant?


Been there. They want to funnel you down a series of options, none of which seems to cover this case. I tried "digital television availability" and it steers you to the digital uk website. At no point does it actually give you a webform to send them your complaint. Since I have done this successfully twice before, I think that they may have taken steps to reduce the volume of complaints by making it very hard to do it on line. Looks like I'll have to resort to good old snail mail!


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## cwaring

Fair enough. I didn't think you could have missed that


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## mjk

cwaring said:


> Fair enough. I didn't think you could have missed that


You would be surprised what I can manage to miss when I put my mind to it!


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## -MC-

blindlemon said:


> So what I'm suggesting is that TiVo make this available as alternative code-sets for people who don't have hacked TiVos or who don't want to install irblast.
> 
> *Gary, would this be possible? It seems to take only a few days to get a new set of IR codes to support a new freeview box...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Blindlemon did you PM Gary ?


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## cwaring

mjk said:


> You would be surprised what I can manage to miss when I put my mind to it!


Teehee! I don't need to concentrate to miss stuff


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## katman

blindlemon said:


> Sorry if this has been suggested before and dismissed, but surely the answer is for TiVo to release a new set of IR codes for Sky Digital and Sky+, which people can use instead of 20016 and 20017 if they want to, that add 0000 after every channel change...
> 
> They would be ignored on non PIN-protected content (giving a "channel unavailable" message), but would clear the PIN dialog just fine if you set your PIN to 0000 in the Sky menus.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


What happens if the channel doesnt ask for the pin there and then ???

The 0000 would be ignored as you suggest but then when a PIN box pop up how could you send the pin.

Assuming you watch a movie (or other pin protected content), but then leave the Tivo on that channel, when the next program starts you get asked for the pin again. you cant change channel on Tivo as the 3 digit channel code would start to be entered as a pin.


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## blindlemon

AFAIK, codes 20016 and 20017 send the Sky key before each channel change which should cancel any outstanding PIN dialogs. 

However, yes, the case of a rated movie that starts at 5am and requires a PIN from 5.30am is still a problem.


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## Richardr

mjk said:


> Been there. They want to funnel you down a series of options, none of which seems to cover this case. I tried "digital television availability" and it steers you to the digital uk website. At no point does it actually give you a webform to send them your complaint. Since I have done this successfully twice before, I think that they may have taken steps to reduce the volume of complaints by making it very hard to do it on line. Looks like I'll have to resort to good old snail mail!


You could try to pretend to be complaining about a specific programme: and fill in here . Best to pick one of the films broadcast pre-watershed.


----------



## -MC-

katman said:


> What happens if the channel doesnt ask for the pin there and then ???
> 
> The 0000 would be ignored as you suggest but then when a PIN box pop up how could you send the pin.
> 
> Assuming you watch a movie (or other pin protected content), but then leave the Tivo on that channel, when the next program starts you get asked for the pin again. you cant change channel on Tivo as the 3 digit channel code would start to be entered as a pin.


_Copied from my post on the modified irblast thread:_

The main problem with the Sky pin request (as I`ve discovered recently) is that its unpredictable, if the Sky HD box asks for the pin late for example - the modded irblast has already put in the 0000 pin and gets ignored as "Channel Unavailable"

My solution to this is to go into Parental Control, go to - 4. Channel Restrictions and lock all of the Movie channels .That way the Sky box reliably asks for the pin as soon as you change to one of the locked (Movie) channels - day or night


----------



## blindlemon

Richardr said:


> You could try to pretend to be complaining about a specific programme: and fill in here . Best to pick one of the films broadcast pre-watershed.


Or even better, fill in a complaint for *every* film broadcast pre-watershed this week


----------



## blindlemon

-MC- said:


> That way the Sky box reliably asks for the pin as soon as you change to one of the locked (Movie) channels - day or night


Is that regardless of whether it is pre-watershed or not? If so, that would get round the problem of films that start at, say, 4.30am and spill over into the restricted period forcing a PIN dialog to pop up at 5.30am :up:


----------



## -MC-

blindlemon said:


> Is that regardless of whether it is pre-watershed or not? If so, that would get round the problem of films that start at, say, 4.30am and spill over into the restricted period forcing a PIN dialog to pop up at 5.30am :up:


Yes - if you have put the pin lock on that channel it will ask for the pin whatever time of day or night you change to that channel making it totally predictable.


----------



## blindlemon

Ok, that sounds great.... now where's Gary when you need him?


----------



## -MC-

katman said:


> What happens if the channel doesnt ask for the pin there and then ???
> 
> The 0000 would be ignored as you suggest but then when a PIN box pop up how could you send the pin
> 
> *Assuming you watch a movie (or other pin protected content), but then leave the Tivo on that channel, when the next program starts you get asked for the pin again. you cant change channel on Tivo as the 3 digit channel code would start to be entered as a pin. *




I`ve tested this out by deliberately leaving the Sky box on a movie channel with the Pin Request banner showing, but unfilled (ie pin not entered) and then setting the Tivo to record another channel - It works just fine changing to the new channel - you don't get any channel code being entered in the pin request screen :up:

Blindlemon - Any sign of Gary ?

.


----------



## katman

-MC- said:


> [/B]
> I`ve tested this out by deliberately leaving the Sky box on a movie channel with the Pin Request banner showing, but unfilled (ie pin not entered) and then setting the Tivo to record another channel - It works just fine changing to the new channel - you don't get any channel code being entered in the pin request screen :up:
> .


Interesting.

Does your Tivo send anything other than the three digit channel number eg SKY or BackUp before sending the channel number.

The reason I ask is that in the past I have accidently keyed in a pin protected channel due to finger trouble and when I have tried to move off that channel the three digits appear in the PIN box and I have to hunt out the Digibox remote to be able to change channel.


----------



## -MC-

katman said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Does your Tivo send anything other than the three digit channel number eg SKY or BackUp before sending the channel number.
> 
> The reason I ask is that in the past I have accidently keyed in a pin protected channel due to finger trouble and when I have tried to move off that channel the three digits appear in the PIN box and I have to hunt out the Digibox remote to be able to change channel.


Yes it does, I use code set 20017 which sends the Sky key before any channel numbers - The Sky key was added on this code set to make sure the box was taken out of standby - some people found that their Sky box had received an update during the night and had been left in standby. It will also take the box away from the pin request as well ! :up:

Your second point about accidently keying in a pin protected channel - I`ve done the same, and as you say using the keypad to enter the channel number is no good as it enters the numbers as a pin. The way I`ve found to get out of that without resorting to the Sky remote is to use the channel up / down on the Tivo remote to go to a channel that doesnt have a pin request and from there you can then enter a channel using the keypad.

.


----------



## GarySargent

Ok I've got a script which will change code 20000 to a set of Sky codes that send 0000 after the channel change.

This can NOT send the Sky button before the channel change. The TiVo software is limited to either sending a code before or after the change, but not both.

These codes work on my Thomson Sky box when set at the MEDIUM speed. Other boxes may be slower and need a longer delay after the channel change.

ADVANCED: You can make the delay longer by editing the script and for the ENTER sequence, add more "26 8904" pairs where the current ones are. For each "26 8904" pair you add, you need to increase the third number by one. Note that really long codes have been known to lock up TiVo's, and you might get into a situation where your TiVo reboots, tries to change channel, then locks up. Increasing the size of the codes is at your own risk!

Make sure you have changed your pin to 0000. Note if the pin number entry comes up late, then the next channel change will be entered as the pin and the Sky box will get in a mess. Your pin will probably end up getting blocked. Turn on the pin for all movie channels as mentioned further up the thread so that you ALWAYS get the pin request.

To install the new codes, unzip the attached file....

You need to get a bash prompt onto your TiVo and move to a writeable directory - eg /tmp

TYPE THIS: cd /tmp

Now you need to get the .tcl script file into this directory. For example "cat" to a file and copy and paste in windows hyperterminal:

TYPE THIS: cat > setcodes.tcl

Then paste the contents of the file you downloaded above into your terminal window and send CTRL-D to end.

Now type the following three commands:

tivosh
source setcodes.tcl
setcodes 

Make sure you switch to the correct IR codes in TiVo's setup menus. Select code manufacturer SKYDIGITAL and code 20000.

IMPORTANT: Make sure you select the option for TiVo to send an ENTER key when selecting code 20000. This is one of the options in the wizard just before you select the code number.

Before someone asks, lets try this with a standard Sky box before worrying about Sky+ codes.


----------



## TCM2007

Nice workaround Gary.

One thought, could you keep the Sky key by altering the Enter key's IR to the 0000 code and setting TiVo to always end the channel change with Enter?


----------



## MonTheFish

GarySargent said:


> Before someone asks, lets try this with a standard Sky box before worrying about Sky+ codes.


But what about us poor old Vigin subscribers....is it not bad enough that we lost sky1 and now we are sceond rate on here too


----------



## cwaring

As I have previously stated, to the best of my knowledge, when the whole network has been upgraded to the new VM-branded software (about another month I think) then they will be able to implement a fix where we should be able to turn it off. 

That's what I've read on DS anyway. I will try and get this confirmed this week,


----------



## atari_addict

GarySargent said:


> Ok I've got a script which will change code 20000 to a set of Sky codes that send 0000 after the channel change.


Any chance of something similar for us cable (would-be) movie channel recorders please Gary?


----------



## blindlemon

I expect the answer would be "yes", but this script is probably just meant as a test to see if the principle is sound. 

If enough people try it and report success, then it should be possible to get TiVo to add it officially along with equivalents for other affected platforms. 

I'm going to give it a go today...


----------



## atari_addict

blindlemon said:


> If enough people try it and report success, then it should be possible to get TiVo to add it officially along with equivalents for other affected platforms.


That's a nice thought - I'd like to see any such patches released in here as well though, just in case though


----------



## wonderboy

This should be a lifesaver if it works - I will try install & test tonight, thanks.


----------



## mjk

Got (surprisingly quick) reply back from Ofcom.

According to them, implementing a mandatory PIN is a commercial decision for Sky and nothing to do with them. They seemed to miss the point that by specifying their requirement as they did, without the requirement that it should be possible to disable the PIN, they have handed Sky another tool to strengthen their monopoly position.

Ah well, I didn't expect anything else, as apparently the promotion of competition does not seem to mean much to Ofcom when it comes to dealing with Sky. This is in part because their hands are tied by the regulations for which we have to thank Parliament, and MPs are distinctly craven when it comes to trying to rein in the Murdoch empire.


----------



## iankb

mjk said:


> According to them, implementing a mandatory PIN is a commercial decision for Sky and nothing to do with them. They seemed to miss the point that by specifying their requirement as they did, without the requirement that it should be possible to disable the PIN, they have handed Sky another tool to strengthen their monopoly position.


As stated before, I see the fact that they are intentionally broadcasting all fourteen episodes of a premier film within a week during out-of-hours slots can be nothing other than a Sky+ marketing decision, and has absolutely nothing to do with any possible restriction imposed by OFCOM. It didn't work with me, since I cancelled out of protest, and have no intention of rejoining, even if this fix works.

I found it rather interesting that the Sky supervisor that I spoke to when cancelling my sub confided in me that she never actually watched the film channels. More than enough on the other channels. 

Since cancelling, I find that I still have too many Freeview recordings to watch from my twin-tuner Vista MCE machine (with the occasional download), and I really don't miss Sky at all. My TiVo is now recording from Sky Free-To-View channels, and is mainly used as a live buffer. Such a shame. 

I think that if a TiVo had come out with integral twin Freeview tuners, a lot more people might have ended up with cancelling their Sky sub. The number of extra programmes that one can record from the Freeview channels, when the number of conflicts has been significantly reduced, makes it much harder to watch what one is able to record. Obviously, those who need their HD fix would still find it hard to change.


----------



## Lysander

Well I have cancelled Sky Movies and Sky Sports from my VM account as a protest. Virgin (obviously) couldn't care less and I was on the phone for less than 3 minutes including queuing time!

In fact, the advisor was going to hang up on me without even asking why I wanted to cancel - so I told her anyway...


----------



## GarySargent

So has anyone actually tried the workaround yet or was I wasting my time?!


----------



## yungee

Lysander said:


> Well I have cancelled Sky Movies and Sky Sports from my VM account as a protest. Virgin (obviously) couldn't care less and I was on the phone for less than 3 minutes including queuing time!
> 
> In fact, the advisor was going to hang up on me without even asking why I wanted to cancel - so I told her anyway...


I'd imagine at the moment Virgin will be absolutely delighted at people cancelling Sky related subscriptions, as that's hitting Murdoch in the pocket far harder than Virgin.


----------



## TCM2007

Sorry Gary, cancelled my movie channels so can't test it!


----------



## blindlemon

I'm running it and it puts in the 0000 just fine - thanks 

However, I don't have the movie package ATM either and the PIN is only required very infrequently on the "cheap" movie channels (Movei24 etc.) included with my miserly 2 mixes option, so I haven't seen it actually work yet...

I'll keep you posted, but hopefully somebody with the movie channels enabled will give it a try shortly.


----------



## blindlemon

TCM2007 said:


> Sorry Gary, cancelled my movie channels so can't test it!


Blimey! Pete will be astounded


----------



## atari_addict

GarySargent said:


> So has anyone actually tried the workaround yet or was I wasting my time?!


I will test a VM cable version


----------



## -MC-

GarySargent said:


> So has anyone actually tried the workaround yet or was I wasting my time?!


Hi Gary,

I would have expected more response as it would be a very usefull workaround, I cant try it myself as i have a Sky+HD box and the codes are different. I`ve been testing, using the modified irblast and have uncovered a fatal flaw in my idea of using the pin lock option on the movie channels.

As we know, the movie channels tend to start late and by making the pin request pop up as soon as you change channels sound like the perfect solution, however i`ve found that after changing to the required channel and entering the pin number....

if the previous program is unrated or its a Sky Movie preview, when your movie (which _is _ rated) _does _ appear on the Now & Next Banner, it will request the pin number again !, and this may be 1 to 4 minutes after the scheduled time. The only workaround that I can see would be to have the pin entered two or three times at say 1 minute intervals....irblast or some other module may be able to do that ?

.


----------



## Ianl

i'm an analogue ntl/virgin user

virgin removed the movie channels from my lineup without warning at the start of the month
5 days latter they send a letter saying the analogue box can not cope with pin numbers (well it used to back when you could get ntl frontrow on analogue)

after being on the phone to virgin (india) for over an hour they told us that it is not possible to complain by phone and we would have to write to them

there response is for us to pay them more money to get digital or not watch movies

almost as helpful as their "instead of sky one we have given you living for free" thanks, great except i already get living

if i didn't hate sky more...........


----------



## cwaring

Well, to be fair to VM digital _is_ the way to go. Eventually, _all_ analogue cable will be switched off. I think only a very small (<5% I think) part of their network is now analogue.

If I might ask. What's stopping you from upgrading to Digital?


----------



## Ianl

cwaring said:


> Well, to be fair to VM digital _is_ the way to go. Eventually, _all_ analogue cable will be switched off. I think only a very small (<5% I think) part of their network is now analogue.
> 
> If I might ask. What's stopping you from upgrading to Digital?


only that it costs more per month and i would have to set up all the season passes and wish lists again and i've only just got that sorted from when my hard drive died (season passes for series that are not currently showing being the biggest pain)


----------



## GarySargent

Ianl your season passes should be preserved assuming the digital lineup has channels equivalent to the analogue platform. You'd just need to re-run guided setup.

As for this workaround, it does seem clumsy to me and not infalable.

Why is this such an issue anyway? Turn pin request off and just make sure you only record rated movies being shown after the watershed. Movies would usually be one-off recordings anyway so it isn't too hard to check.

Perhaps someone could provide a TiVoWeb module to spot recordings set before the watershed and warn the user (extra option for DailyMail?). Or even have the option to reschedule the recordings for you automatically to one after the watershed.


----------



## martink0646

cwaring said:


> Well, to be fair to VM digital _is_ the way to go. Eventually, _all_ analogue cable will be switched off. I think only a very small (<5% I think) part of their network is now analogue.
> 
> If I might ask. What's stopping you from upgrading to Digital?


Carl,

Sorry to take this off topic but I had to answer this quote from such a pro NTL/VM advocate. I was an (unhappy with CS) (Happy with the TV & BB) NTL customer until December 2005 when I moved to an area with cable.........but analogue only. I moved to SKY (TV) & BT (BB) but have found it harder & harder to justify the cost, especially BB. Imagine my delight when I logged onto the new VM site, entered my postcode & found that Digital was now available. Rang up to order, especially as my wife is a VM mobile customer only to be told "sorry, it's not available for your area". Grrrrrrr. Obviously leopards never change their spots & I should be sectioned for even thinking about returning? Does anyone lucid & with a brain (which will discount anyone who answers a phone at VM) happen to know when they plan to switchover the analogue parts of the network because I can't get any form of answer except for the proverbial shrug of the shoulders?

Martin

If anyone from VM is too nervous/embarassed/ashamed (delete as applicable) to publicly quote an answer a PM would be great.


----------



## smatson

Yes Tivo web module sounds a good way to go


----------



## cwaring

Hi Martin. I'm not going to bother quoting your whole post, but here's _my own_ answer.

Did you challenge the person you spoke to about why the Postcode Checker said it was but the they said it wasn't? Some reps are worse than others, expecially in ex-NTL areas, as one CE has already admitted.  I haven't had need to call Customer Services in my (xNTL) area much yet but when I was with TW in my old place their CS was always very good. I moved in December and it did take SIX WEEKS for them to sort out my services!!

I would suggest you try again (the web site and call them) and try and find out why there's a disparity.

If you would like to PM me your postcode and general area (nearest town or something; I don't need your full address) I'll see if I can get a definitive answer for you through my contacts; and these guys should know!!


----------



## scooper

Hi Gary,

I've been searching for a solution to the PIN problem, and will try out your test script over the weekend when I'm back at home.

Before I try, does the script send 0000 for every channel change - will this effect non-movies channels ?

Thanks.

PS. I've written to OFCOM twice, the first response came back today saying "If SKY prevent you from watching a recording then take it up with them" - they clearly missed the point. I have written again and used a video recorder as an example because I don't think they know what a TIVO or PVR is.

I have talked to SKY also, and was lucky to get put through to a fellow TIVO user who said nothing could be done.

I have written to SKY to inform then that the PIN feature precludes me from using TIVO and if a work around cannot be found then I will be forced to cancel my subscription - waiting three days for a response.

I finally spoke to TIVO Tech support, and they also agreed that nothing could be done from the TIVO side.

I personally am not prepared to pay for SKY+ @ £99 + £60 + 12 x £10 month (£270 total) to be able to watch the odd movie, and get (in my opinion) an inferior PVR.

Boy have OFCOM/SKY pi55ed me off !!


----------



## mjk

scooper said:


> PS. I've written to OFCOM twice, the first response came back today saying "If SKY prevent you from watching a recording then take it up with them" - they clearly missed the point. I have written again and used a video recorder as an example because I don't think they know what a TIVO or PVR is.


Sounds like you got the same reply I did. They appear to be very obtuse and did not really address the point I raised which is that it is essentially a competition issue.

When I get back from a trip I'll have another go and try pointing out to them that they are failing in the competition part of their remit.


----------



## scooper

In my second mail to OFCOM I have mentioned that I consider this anti-competitive in that SKY require me to purchase SKY equipment to record programs and that my video recorder no longer works because I am required to type in a PIN.

The complain to OFCOM link gives a list of email addresses to contact the management team which resulted in a response from them, however it seems to be a standard letter.

Hopefully if enough of us report the problem they may take some notice, failing that I will be trying Watchdog.


----------



## wonderboy

Hi Gary,

I got the settings changed this morning and the Channel change does indeed send the "0000" after every channel change. During testing it didn't screw up any channel changes, although since no 18 movies were being shown I wasn't able to fully test it, but it looks very good to me. I will report back in a few days!

A nice hack that only does this when 3** channel is selected would be superb, unless of course SKY start using this over other channel as well. 


Thanks! :up:


----------



## Ianl

and to top it off having removed my movie channels i'm not paying any less ,as my sports has gone up from £6 to £20something because i no longer have movies
thieving gfhgfhfkjds



Ianl said:


> i'm an analogue ntl/virgin user
> 
> virgin removed the movie channels from my lineup without warning at the start of the month
> 5 days latter they send a letter saying the analogue box can not cope with pin numbers (well it used to back when you could get ntl frontrow on analogue)
> 
> after being on the phone to virgin (india) for over an hour they told us that it is not possible to complain by phone and we would have to write to them
> 
> there response is for us to pay them more money to get digital or not watch movies
> 
> almost as helpful as their "instead of sky one we have given you living for free" thanks, great except i already get living
> 
> if i didn't hate sky more...........


----------



## katman

Ianl said:


> and to top it off having removed my movie channels i'm not paying any less ,as my sports has gone up from £6 to £20something because i no longer have movies
> thieving gfhgfhfkjds


Which sadly only leaves three choices.

1. Get the movies back as they wont cost anything and you can still record some albeit with manual intervention

2. Cancel the sports as well

3. Tell $KY to stick their service where the sun doesnt shine.

For people with no access to Cable and who dont like the freeview offerings $KY have us by the short and curlies 

If I cancel my movies I either lose the functionality (if that is the correct term to use for a semifunctional PVR) or SKY+ or pay extra to keep it 

Tivo is now MY PERSONAL VIDEO RECORDER whereas before SKY+ I rarely got a looking because it was the FVR (Family Video Recorder).


----------



## jeremy Parsons

a bit P***** off at the moment , VM with sky movies and no ability to record them , add to that loss of sky 1 and no decent HD offering , I would be with sky now if I didn;t live in a flat. Currently I am hoping the patch will come out to my box to turn pin request off. 

I have two HD ready TFT telly's and no HD content + no sign of HD on the horizon from VM the stupid V+ box doesnt even have any decent content. Anyone know how mucha shared dish for single use is to install if you have to pay for it yourself.

I have the samsung sliver box + tivo + movies , on code 20045 does a script exist to allow me to send the 0000 pin?


----------



## cwaring

jeremy Parsons said:


> a bit P***** off at the moment , VM with sky movies and no ability to record them , add to that loss of sky 1 and no decent HD offering , I would be with sky now if I didn;t live in a flat.


You do realise that you would have the same (movies) problem with Sky, don't you? (Unless you meant you'd get Sky+ but you can't mean that, can you  )



> Currently I am hoping the patch will come out to my box to turn pin request off.


I believe this will happen when all areas have the new VM-branded software.


----------



## jeremy Parsons

I never believe anything from VM , I have been stood up by engineers two days in a row when trying to get SACM installed , I would have gone for the VIP package but without Sky 1 and HD not much point as I see it.

I want SkyHD and I would then move tivo to FTA only use and leave the Sky box for Sky only.

I am considering dumping the movie channels.

Frankly I am not impressed with VM same old C**P different name


----------



## terryeden

I don't have Sky, but it seems to me that you'd get more value for money by subscribing to lovefilm or something similar to get your movies.


----------



## cwaring

jeremy Parsons said:


> Frankly I am not impressed with VM same old C**P different name


You're ex-NTL I assume? Telewest was fine


----------



## dave h-j

!!??

Well I just got asked for a PIN to watch Swordfish on Channel 4 via Sky (which meant I missed the end of "Face of Britian" due to the presicion timing of TV nowadays). So is this migrating to ALL channels now??


----------



## jeremy Parsons

Carl 100% i was ex-NTL , I will give it a month or two before I bin movies and see if the PIN override feature ever becomes available


----------



## cwaring

I had no idea that NTL was _so_ bad. Telewest was fantasic. Hopefully the new VM will eventuall be more like the latter and less like the former. I think that's the idea, anyway


----------



## wonderboy

I have tested the new Sky codes for a few days now, and with my grundig didgibox, all works very very well... tried changing channel to movies many times today, always the PIN request worked A OK.

Many many thanks.  

Living in the wilds of Angus, I fear there will never be an option other than satelite t.v.... so I still hope for a freeview tivo s3 that will still be able to record off of Sky (in HD too).


----------



## jonphil

Anyone thought about raising this with BBC Watchdog?


----------



## 6022tivo

Watchdog normally only like taking on case after they have hundreds of complaints regarding a simple issue that is wrong, so a few tivo owners who are having this problem I don't think they will bother with.

Have anyone called the sky owned tivo helpline and received a official response, and also has anyone contacted tivo in the US with this information that SKY are stopping tivo recordings on movies because of the PIN which is not a official legal requirement in the UK and that tivo owners believe it is a ANTI tivo measure to push people to SKY+?


----------



## katman

6022tivo said:


> Watchdog normally only like taking on case after they have hundreds of complaints regarding a simple issue that is wrong, so a few tivo owners who are having this problem I don't think they will bother with.


WRONG !!!!

It is not purely a Tivo issue.

The need to enter a pin affects anyone who uses a Video Recorder or DVD recorder or Media Centre PC to record TV programs from SKY.


----------



## iankb

katman said:


> The need to enter a pin affects anyone who uses a Video Recorder or DVD recorder or Media Centre PC to record TV programs from SKY.


And the ability of any other manufacturer who wants to produce a hard-disk recorder that is capable of recording from SCART input.


----------



## 6022tivo

Sorry guys you are correct, it is too early in the morning for me...

With regards to Watchdog, I did email a monster email after I first got SKY+ a few years ago, with the lost recordings, missing, lost series links, etc.. etc.. (Basically I had been spoilt with tivo and this was a massive step backwards). I did get a call back from a BBC resercher who works on the program, but they never did take the matter up on the program.


----------



## iankb

Maybe you should try an email to the BBC Click programme (on News 24). They might like to add a 30-second comment within their news update. They are probably more likely to understand the problem as well.


----------



## cwaring

To save you looking  [email protected]


----------



## jeremy Parsons

Carl , those of ex-NTLer's have put up with poor customer service for longer than I can remember , most of the time once the service is in and working its fine , its just when you want to make a change or you have faulty hardware. The last two times I had an engineer out I had to wait in for around 6 days and I gave up on the last visit. 

My latest thinking is to cancel all my Tv channels and go for the new top up TV DVR and move both TIVO's to freeview , not currently sure of the best option , I would prefer Sky but would have to shell out for a shared dish which might cost me a few bucks


----------



## cwaring

Well hopefully those days have passed now. Not guaranteeing anything though


----------



## jeremy Parsons

I had my last enginner booked during the "transition phase" and gave up in a huff , currently thinking about giving VM a shout and asking for a discount as I cannot record my movie channels , its seems I pay more and get less nowdays isn't progress a wonderful thing.

the only brightside is the new Samsung box (same as yours is abig improvement on the pace box , (I had two the second one lasted two weeks)


----------



## jeremy Parsons

Ahem! It appears TopupTV customer service is poor , lots of people switching to VM . BAck to the drawing board ,shared dish still looking like the best option as I want HD NOW!


----------



## Pete77

jeremy Parsons said:


> Ahem! It appears TopupTV customer service is poor


Yes its atrocious being outsourced to a greedy third party company who use a 10p per minute 0871 number and always keep you on hold for ages about any query.

Also if you try and cancel they give you the runaround and suggest the relevant person is only available from Monday to Friday from 9am to 5pm.


----------



## GarySargent

Any chance of keeping the thread on-topic and not turning it into a rant about the various service providers?


----------



## cwaring

Doubt it


----------



## scooper

SKY have responded to me as follows:

I was sorry to read that you are unable to record movies during the day to your Tivo box due to the requirement of your PIN number.

Within the recent changes to the Sky movies relaunch we are now in a position to be able to broadcast movies which have been awarded with a 12 of 15 certificate, by the British Board of Film Classification, prior to the watershed. However, to enable us to do this it is requirement set down by Ofcom that a mandatory PIN number is required.

I appreciate that if you are not available at the time the movies is due to start the film will not record. However, please be aware that movies with these classifications shown after the 8pm watershed will not require a PIN number. Likewise you will not be prompted to enter your PIN number to watch or record a movie with a PG certificate at any time during the day.

I trust this has clarified our position and thanks for taking the time to contact us at Sky.

Kind regards
<name withheld>
Viewer Relations

So, does anyone know how I can prevent TIVO from trying to record Movies before 8pm and choosing the showing outside of the watershed ?


----------



## 6022tivo

Hold on a minute, did I not read up a little that someone contacted Ofcom and they said this is not a requirement to have mandatory pin numbers??????


----------



## scooper

The OFCOM rules state:

Premium subscription film services may broadcast up to BBFC 15-rated films or their equivalent, at any time of day provided:

* there is a protection system (a mandatory PIN or other equivalent protection) pre 2000 and post 0530, that seeks satisfactorily to restrict access solely to those authorised to view when material other than BBFC U-rated or PG-rated or their equivalents is shown; and
* those security systems which are in place to protect children are clearly explained to all subscribers.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/ifi/codes/bcode/protectingu18/?a=87101

I was interested in the line that says "or equivalent protection" ... would this cover having the SKY box in a room where no children could access ? Like, any room in my house as I have no children ?

If anyone has any ideas, I'm quite happy to go back to SKY ..

Oh, and I stated to SKY that I'll take a SKY+ box if they were to give it to me free, i.e. no £60 upgrade, £99 for the box, and £10 subscription.


----------



## blindlemon

scooper said:


> that seeks satisfactorily to restrict access solely to those authorised to view


...which leaves it open for Sky to allow users to switch the PIN request off if they don't need it.

I think that's what we should be concentrating on: getting Sky to implement a working override for people who don't need/want it - ie. where there are no kids or the Sky box is used as a recording source for a system (eg. TiVo) with its own parental controls.

All this stuff about ratings is just window dressing anyway - everybody knows that kids watch films rated 15 etc. if their parents let them, and also if they don't in many cases 

At the end of the day, if Sky put the PIN request on by default and let users disable it at their discretion, they have done what Ofcom requires.



scooper said:


> I'm quite happy to go back to SKY ..


What email address did you use? If we all pester them on the same address maybe they will take notice?


----------



## scooper

The email address for Viewer relations:

[email protected]


----------



## scooper

During by research about SKY PIN Issues, I came across a site offering a "DreamBox" and Dragon card, from what I could make out, this was an alternative Satellite receiver that is compatible with SKY (it could understand SKY encryption if you inserted your SKY viewing card.)

Does anyone know if this works, and if it is legal ?

Thanks


----------



## mjk

My understanding is that yes, it does work, (although it may require rather more work than a bog-standard Sky box), and yes, it is legal - you have to have a valid sky viewing card. The Dragon CAM is the way of getting Sky directly into a media center PC as well.

The downside is that if Sky change the encryption scheme, then this solution will stop working, at least until someone works out how to reprogram it.


----------



## Pete77

mjk said:


> My understanding is that yes, it does work, (although it may require rather more work than a bog-standard Sky box), and yes, it is legal - you have to have a valid sky viewing card. The Dragon CAM is the way of getting Sky directly into a media center PC as well.
> 
> The downside is that if Sky change the encryption scheme, then this solution will stop working, at least until someone works out how to reprogram it.


Also you have to take the viewing card out of the Dragon CAM and put it back in your Sky box overnight at least once a month in order to keep it active and validated as the Dragon CAM cannot do those things to the card.


----------



## jonphil

Have mailed Sky but avioded mentioning TIVO as I feel that SKY maybe see the word TIVO in a e-mail and automatically decide not to help.


----------



## Pete77

jonphil said:


> Have mailed Sky but avioded mentioning TIVO as I feel that SKY maybe see the word TIVO in a e-mail and automatically decide not to help.


Why should they take this attitude when the peopled concerned are also Sky subscribers too.


----------



## ColinYounger

> Why should they take this attitude


How about Jon just playing safe?

Oh yes - it's you, Pete. Silly question.


----------



## iankb

Pete77 said:


> Why should they take this attitude when the peopled concerned are also Sky subscribers too.


Because the main reason for this PIN-entry requirement is to get users to move to Sky+, and this makes both TiVo and MCE less desirable.


----------



## jonphil

6022tivo said:


> Sorry guys you are correct, it is too early in the morning for me...
> 
> With regards to Watchdog, I did email a monster email after I first got SKY+ a few years ago, with the lost recordings, missing, lost series links, etc.. etc.. (Basically I had been spoilt with tivo and this was a massive step backwards). I did get a call back from a BBC resercher who works on the program, but they never did take the matter up on the program.


They did a huge feature on Sky+ boxes only a few months back


----------



## jonphil

ColinYounger said:


> How about Jon just playing safe?
> 
> Oh yes - it's you, Pete. Silly question.


Less likly to be ignored as just another annoying Tivo user. It doesn't just effect us Tivo users but my dad's DVD recorder is also rended useless.


----------



## msui772

GarySargent said:


> So has anyone actually tried the workaround yet or was I wasting my time?!


Thanks a lot for the workaround. I have had it running for a few days and it really works well.  
It failed to record something today as the program started a minute late and then asked for the pin. I have now set the pin request on all movie channels so will see if that sorts it out.


----------



## MonTheFish

on my virgin set up even films after the watershed ask you to enter a PIN even although I have this option switched off. I need to press red then it the film comes up with no pin being entered. Even if I hang around to do this manually the channel stays locked on the film until you press red or back thus stopping your tivo from moving to the next recording automatically.

What a pile of crap I have to say.


----------



## jeremy Parsons

Sky High!


----------



## wonderboy

Hi Gary,

I've had this working very well now for over a week. 

I have spotted one problem, but I'm afraid that it is not solvable! If you record a movie pre-watershed & then another (pre watershed) one starts before Tivo changes the channel, the Sky Digibox is waiting for another PIN code (despite entering it for the 1st movie it requires one for the next also) & therefore the next time Tivo attemts to change the channel, it fails because the Channel number is input in the PIN field by the digibox...

Bloody sky still manage to screw it up for evreyone!

cheers.


----------



## rondun

Found another problem with this.

Sat down last night to watch a film which I had recorded some time ago, and about half way through the PIN protection screen came up - very frustrating.

I had even checked the beginning previously to make sure there was no PIN protection screen but now realise that the recording had started before 5.30am and the film finished after this. The middle of the night is always a good time to record films to avoid prime-time clashes.

Typically, its gone now from all the guide listings.

Would the workaround avoid this?


----------



## mikerr

scooper said:


> So, does anyone know how I can prevent TIVO from trying to record Movies before 8pm and choosing the showing outside of the watershed ?


This could be done as the much-wanted "negative wishlist":
E.g. 
never record movies after 8pm or
never record animated cartoons even if they match another wishlist.
as I'm always cancelling/deleting cartoons that match my keyword wishlists.

My tivo hacking skills aren't up to that yet 
I have just ordered mr keegan's book though


----------



## aerialplug

mikerr said:


> as I'm always cancelling/deleting cartoons that match my keyword wishlists.


This would be a real boon. I'm always interested in programmes about caves & caving but the wishlist comes back full of things like Batman and Captain Caveman!


----------



## ColinYounger

Wouldn't using an advanced wishlist (with extra filtering on category) sort out the cartoon issue?

Description of advanced wishlists here


----------



## mikerr

There is no "NOT" operator even in advanced wishlists....


----------



## ColinYounger

Think laterally - you might not want cartoons ("Not cartoons") but you might find your programs are in a certain category. 

E.G. Caving AND category SPORTS.


----------



## redddevil

Extract from Sky viewer relations reply received today.

"At present, there are no plans to change the way this request is implemented. I appreciate that you have no children in your household, however, as a responsible broadcaster we have to offer the maximum protection to our viewers.

Please allow me to explain. It is a requirement that any 12 or 15 certificate movies transmitted pre- watershed are broadcast with a mandatory PIN. By broadcasting these movies during the daytime, we are offering our viewers a greater choice and range that they would previously not have had. Otherwise, we would only be able to broadcast 'U', 'PG' or their equivalents prior to 8pm on the Sky Movies network.

I should also point out that these movies will at some stage also be broadcast later in the evening, which means you will be able to record without the need to enter PIN."

It then goes on to plug Sky+. I replied pointing out the stupidity of their position and that I would cancel if it did not change. I think everyone should email their viewer relations threatening cancellation. Surely they'd take some notice?


----------



## blindlemon

I got exactly the same reply - but at least it proves they're getting enough complaints to create a standard response...


----------



## Ian_m

aerialplug said:


> This would be a real boon. I'm always interested in programmes about caves & caving but the wishlist comes back full of things like Batman and Captain Caveman!


I too used to have a wishlist for "caves & caving" (as a member of South Wales Caving Club) but gave up, as I ended with all types of funny programmes being recorded which took ages to realise how...

Things like a single episode of neighbours recorded due to description saying "Jason *caves* in to Kylies advances..." (or something like that...)


----------



## mikerr

..which could be cancelled by a single negative wishlist of "caves in to" 

colin: I know you can duplicate a single exclusive NOT by many inclusive ANDs .. but you'd have to include ALL GENRES except one... how many genres are there?


----------



## Pine Cladding

I don't know if losing income will make any difference, But after many torturous and frustrating calls to Virgin Media, I have now cancelled my movies subscription!


----------



## blindlemon

mikerr said:


> ..which could be cancelled by a single negative wishlist of "caves in to"
> 
> colin: I know you can duplicate a single exclusive NOT by many inclusive ANDs .. but you'd have to include ALL GENRES except one... how many genres are there?


You can't have more than one genre in an Advanced Wishlist


----------



## aerialplug

Ian_m said:


> I too used to have a wishlist for "caves & caving" (as a member of South Wales Caving Club) but gave up, as I ended with all types of funny programmes being recorded which took ages to realise how...


Ah, the SWCC - no doubt you'll be familiar with this row of houses then: 
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417715
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417648

I was up there a couple of weeks ago onsome walks that started from the adjacent car park. I nearly joined SWCC myself when I was a student and was even offered a visit to Ogof Ffynnon Ddu (the 38 mile cave underneath the mountain) but it was quite flooded at the time.

Whilst there that weekend, we were shown the survey map for OFD, which takes up the majority of one side wall of one of the cottages!


----------



## ColinYounger

Sorry about encouraging thread-drift, but ... aw, heck, I'm not. 

I used to cave some years ago, before bits of me got uncomfortable through a squeeze (), mostly in the Mendips.

What 'style' are the South Wales caves? I remember a horrific weekend in a Yorkshire cave where I first came into contact with SRT. <horror>


----------



## ColinYounger

But back (sort of) on topic, I was thinking about the 'NOT' flag - specifically the time issue (i.e. not before 8pm).

You can trundle through the MFS to get the to-do list and get the programmes quite happily, but the problem (as I see it) would be the delete reason.

When you use delete from the to-do list in Tivoweb, it removes the item with a reason of '24' (and sets the reason text to Cancelled by user). As far as I know, this stops other scheduled recordings of that 'episode' from being recorded. For example, if you delete the 4pm showing, it won't then get the 10pm showing.

I've been googling, but can't find what the other reason codes are (other than 10:deleting to record another program) or how they affect TiVo's scheduling.

Any guru's lurking that can point us in a direction?


----------



## 6022tivo

While we are on the OFF topic of caves.

My son (12) is going on a school adventure thingy and will be caving at Skipton later in the year. 

As a responsible parent, I am really scared for him??.

What sort of danger may he come across, can these caves cave in??. Can they flood whilst he is under. Forgive me for being over protective, but I have never done any caving before, is he under any risk, I have time to cancel the trip.?


----------



## ColinYounger

If it's a school run event, there will have been so many risk assessments made that I doubt they'd be able to trip over a pebble, let alone come into contact with serious danger.

Is it Ingleborough Cave, by any chance? If so, it's a show cave (I've been there with my boys!) and there won't be a problem at all.

Even if it's a 'proper' caving expedition, the person in charge of the expedition will be extremely experienced in the cave being visited, and will know to within minutes how long you can be in the cave while it's raining (i.e. before you see any water). They won't take a group of children through anything challenging.


----------



## ColinYounger

Here's a link to Ingleborough Cave. It's in a glorious setting with all the good bits of Yorkshire in one little place.


----------



## Ian_m

aerialplug said:


> Ah, the SWCC - no doubt you'll be familiar with this row of houses then:
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417715
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/417648
> 
> Whilst there that weekend, we were shown the survey map for OFD, which takes up the majority of one side wall of one of the cottages!


Yes thats them, that where I will be this weekend. Last time I was there the BBC was there filming Torchwood and I sat in the dining room watching the Hi-Def displays of what the were filming.



ColinYounger said:


> What 'style' are the South Wales caves?


Mostly flat and walking (and squezzing). Very few Welsh caves need SRT, most just walk and walk and walk. Will be there this weekend with my kids ages 5 & 8 and they don't have any trouble getting around.


----------



## BrianHughes

ColinYounger said:


> Here's a link to Ingleborough Cave. It's in a glorious setting with all the good bits of Yorkshire in one little place.


All the good bits of Yorkshire are all in one place. It's called Yorkshire 
I'm a big fan of Yorkshire, me!


----------



## 6022tivo

I only know the camp is in Skipton... They are also doing some open kayaking... Now I am scared, what if one tips over and he can not get it back??


----------



## ColinYounger

6022tivo said:


> what if one tips over and he can not get it back??


He falls out and holds onto the Kayak.  Kayaks aren't like canoes which have covers (i.e. they're open at the top).

If it's any help, I'm involved with Scouting, and have talked to many - rightfully - concerned parents about various activities we do. We take as many precautions as we sensibly can, and strangely enough children presented with a 'dangerous' situation behave incredibly well and pay lots of attention to the safety talk. Telling them they may drown tends to focus their minds. 

Organisers and leaders of activities have spent 3-4 hours beforehand imagining the worst for you and planning what they'd do as a result (aka risk assessment).

Remember - without a little 'danger' and excitement, it would be boring. As long as the danger is managed (which it will be) your son will have a brilliant time and learn new skills as well as a little about himself. :up:


----------



## denali

Ian_m said:


> I too used to have a wishlist for "caves & caving" (as a member of South Wales Caving Club) but gave up, as I ended with all types of funny programmes being recorded which took ages to realise how...
> 
> Things like a single episode of neighbours recorded due to description saying "Jason *caves* in to Kylies advances..." (or something like that...)


Apologies for continuing with the off-topicness but this thread seems to be all over the place anyway!

Ian, if you have TiVoWeb you might consider installing this module:

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153834
http://www.denali.org.uk/blocklist

I wrote it a couple of years ago and it helps to automate the removal of undesirable programmes from the ToDo list that have been selected because of over-enthusiastic Wishlists. In essence it adds a retroactive NOT function to Wishlists, but only if you have TiVoWeb.

It's unlikely to be updated any more since I have turned to the Dark Side and embraced V+ (I only looked at this thread to see how all you TiVo stalwarts were handling the PIN issue) but the last I heard quite a few people were running it and finding it useful.


----------



## 6022tivo

Cheers Colin, my mind is a little more at rest.


----------



## redddevil

Perhaps I should apologise for posting on topic amongst you troglodytes  but I have a quick query.

As I'm currently not only losing the daytime movies via the PIN cr4p but subsequent recordings too ('cause box treats channel changes as PIN attempts) I'd like to use code set 20017 as mentioned previously. This isn't available for my standard Thomson box so is 20016 a Thomson equivalent or can I pretend to be a Grundig (say) and use 20017?
TFYH


----------



## BrianHughes

redddevil said:


> Perhaps I should apologise for posting on topic amongst you troglodytes  but I have a quick query.
> 
> As I'm currently not only losing the daytime movies via the PIN cr4p but subsequent recordings too ('cause box treats channel changes as PIN attempts) I'd like to use code set 20017 as mentioned previously. This isn't available for my standard Thomson box so is 20016 a Thomson equivalent or can I pretend to be a Grundig (say) and use 20017?
> TFYH


Yes, code 20017 under one manufacturer is the same as 20017 under another one.


----------



## redddevil

Yes I Kind of thought the code was the same but wasn't sure if 20017 would actually control my Thomson box.
I suppose I should just try it really and stop wasting everyone's time!

Back on topic I did reply to Sky's initial response pointing out a few things and got this back

_Thanks for your most recent email.

As explained in Angela's response there are no plans at present to change the way the PIN in implemented.

I am sorry to read that you are considering cancelling your subscription, however, viewer feedback is important to us and we appreciate you taking the time to give us your thoughts. All your comments and views have been registered and we value your input.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to contact Sky._

So they ain't gonna do anything until lots of people complain or OfCom get involved (fat chance).


----------



## ColinYounger

redddevil said:


> there are no plans at present to change the way the PIN in implemented.


TRANSLATION: f**k off. We don't care.



redddevil said:


> I am sorry to read that you are considering cancelling your subscription, however, viewer feedback is important to us and we appreciate you taking the time to give us your thoughts. All your comments and views have been registered and we value your input.


TRANSLATION: No, really. F**K off! We couldn't give a s**t!


----------



## ColinYounger

Elsewhere, I have read frustration from Sky subscribers who have also noted that the Ofcom 'rules' don't dictate what Sky have implemented.

I also note a certain amount of frustration in the VM camp - especially since the 'fix' to allow you to actually watch a movie live - is delayed until July.


----------



## cwaring

ColinYounger said:


> I also note a certain amount of frustration in the VM camp - especially since the 'fix' to allow you to actually watch a movie live - is delayed until July.


I haven't heard that, but then again people don't ever tell me much 

However (deja vu) I do know they will be implementing the fix when everyone has had their EPG changed to the VM style. Perhaps this is what's taking until July.


----------



## jeremy Parsons

Ok I have taken the plunge and have come up with a workaround.

I have got an agreement with VM that i will sign up for an addition 12 months at the same cost as I am paying now and will get upgrraded from 2mb to 4mb bb , get a v+ box and the old sammy goes upstairs (with tivo 1) and get free evening and weekend calls.

I had taken the plunge and removed movies from the tivo channels to record , Tivo is mainly for season passes for series , I will used V+ to record movies and now have some form of limited HD capability , my other telly upstairs (I have 2 x 32" lcds 1 up 1 down ) will then have tivo 1 and my samsung box , tivo 2 downstairs will remain on freeview.

not the idea answer but a) I cannot get sky unless i want to install and pay for a shared dish

b) saves me paying for my aerial to be run to the bedroom (£100 ish)

i did try and get the VIP package discounted but no such luck , the only downside is its delayed install for both until the 13th of june


----------



## Automan

After re-reading the whole thread it seems we still have no 100% guranteed solution or even the patch which helps a bit for Sky+ / SkyHD boxes  

I have removed sky movie channels from the lineup which seems to be the only 100% fix.

Automan.


----------



## Wonder_lander

Automan said:


> After re-reading the whole thread it seems we still have no 100% guranteed solution or even the patch which helps a bit for Sky+ / SkyHD boxes
> 
> I have removed sky movie channels from the lineup which seems to be the only 100% fix.
> 
> Automan.


I fixed it by buying sky HD to record movies :down:

Expensive fix and not what I wanted to do


----------



## TCM2007

Record the film with the Sky+ box maybe?


----------



## RichardJH

Or if your with Virgin Media use the V+ box for films. Subscribing to the VIP package gave me some extras at no extra cost so I use the normal STB with Tivo and use the V+ mainly for movies.

Not so easy to do the unspeakable and put them on an edited DVD but it is possible.


----------



## Pete77

Forgive me for asking but why do any of you even want to record the stuff on the pay Sky and Virgin movie channels.

Surely the whole point of these chanels is that the movies are repeated endlessly over a month so you are sure to be able to catch it live sooner or later, albeit perhaps with a little minor inconvenience.

OK I agree its not as flexible as normal Tivo viewing but its not exactly like the new episode of This Life which the BBC quite incredibly showed just once and did not repeat on BBC Three or anywhere else. Unfortunately unknown to me I had a higher rated SP clash and in those days was foolishly not yet using Daily Mail.


----------



## TCM2007

Not incredible at all - it came out on DVD in days!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Not incredible at all - it came out on DVD in days!


So you mean repeats were banned contractually in order to enhance the potential for DVD sales?

Was this DVD sold on its own or at vast cost in a boxed set with all the episodes from the original two series.

You wouldn't catch me paying for the DVDs. After all that's surely why I own a Tivo instead.


----------



## TCM2007

Don't know about contractually, but it doesn't make much commercial sense to repeat something just after you've released a DVD.

It's a standalone DVD.

Anyway didn't you say you didn't like soaps?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Anyway didn't you say you didn't like soaps?


OK let me be clear. I don't like any Soaps about ordinary working class British life. I find such Soaps to be intensely depressing and to have no entertainment or aspirational qualities.

This Life being about a bunch of self important traineer lawyers was right up my street.

I also like The Archers because it is about a rounded cross section of folk in a UK rural community as opposed to Eastenders or Coronation St where the main characters revel in their ordinary working classness, their disinterest in politics or government and their complete lack of any interest in improving their dull, dreary and monotonous lives.


----------



## Automan

It's those wishlist etc that make the recordings

e.g. anything with "Keaton, Michael" in

Without the ability to record things automatically with wishlists one might as well turn Tivo off and just use Sky+ & SkyHD products.

Automan.



Pete77 said:


> Forgive me for asking but why do any of you even want to record the stuff on the pay Sky and Virgin movie channels.
> 
> Surely the whole point of these chanels is that the movies are repeated endlessly over a month so you are sure to be able to catch it live sooner or later, albeit perhaps with a little minor inconvenience.
> 
> OK I agree its not as flexible as normal Tivo viewing but its not exactly like the new episode of This Life which the BBC quite incredibly showed just once and did not repeat on BBC Three or anywhere else. Unfortunately unknown to me I had a higher rated SP clash and in those days was foolishly not yet using Daily Mail.


----------



## iankb

Pete77 said:


> Surely the whole point of these chanels is that the movies are repeated endlessly over a month so you are sure to be able to catch it live sooner or later, albeit perhaps with a little minor inconvenience.


That would have been OK if that is what they did. However, premier movies were broadcast for a week, but in the same fixed timeslot for each movie. Therefore, if one showing of a movie needed pin entry, then all showings needed it. Anybody with a modicum of sense (and definitely not a Sky marketing person trying to push Sky+) would have the sense to swap movies to different slots on different days.

I presume that they still do that, but I voted with my feet, and am now a proud owner of a subscription-free digibox.


----------



## Pete77

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> But isnt this whole practice slightly illegal ?
> In a nutshell SKY is protecting its own interests by introducing these PIN requirements. If you've got a SKY+ box then you're fine, you get to enter the PIN when you go to watch the material, but if you have any other kit, then tough sh*t.
> Isn't that against the competition laws? i.e. in order to 'record' these items then you have to use SKY's equipment.
> 
> Didn't Microsoft get a bashing for restricting its OS and browser integration?


And isn't BA setting aside £350 million to pay fines just for picking up the phone to its rivals to agree on the fuel surcharge con.

Unfortunately for us competition on television matters is regulated by OfCoN a regulator reknowned only for its total fear and reluctance to ever take Sky on over its monopolistic practices.

And guess who has just become OfCoN's new Communications Director on £200k per annum or so. Why its none other than the former Communications Director of Sky Digital.  

And don't forget how Gordon Brown is relying on The Sun to still back New Labour at the next election so still won't want to do anything to adversely impact the commercial position of Sky Digital.   :down:


----------



## msui772

Help
I've been using Gary's codes that send 4 zeros after channel change for a while now on my Sky Tivo setup and I can see the movie channels most of the time. I have set the movie channels to always request a pin. (It does get confused from time to time but on the whole it is workable. )

I tried to change the pin number for my parents sky + Tivo setup but I was told today that they won't change the pin to 0000. They can have 3 zeros at the end but not a zero at the beginning. 

I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do. Help!

Michael


----------



## 6022tivo

msui772 said:


> Help
> I've been using Gary's codes that send 4 zeros after channel change for a while now on my Sky Tivo setup and I can see the movie channels most of the time. I have set the movie channels to always request a pin. (It does get confused from time to time but on the whole it is workable. )
> 
> I tried to change the pin number for my parents sky + Tivo setup but I was told today that they won't change the pin to 0000. They can have 3 zeros at the end but not a zero at the beginning.
> 
> I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do. Help!
> 
> Michael


Sky have found out about Gary's mod and have moved the goalposts so we all abandon Tivo and buy a Sky +..


----------



## Automan

Checked thread again and can only find the ones Gary created for Sky standard boxes http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5061740&&#post5061740

Do the Sky+ ones exist?

P.S. Sky HD lets you change pin to 0000 ok
I assume it's only Sky CS that will not.

Automan


----------



## msui772

It turns out my parents' pin was 0604 which isn't a valid channel so I have hacked the setcodes script to send 0604 after channel change instead of 0000 and will test it this weekend. Fingers crossed!

Michael


----------



## cwaring

The PIN is usually the last four digits of the number on your Sky Card. Sorry. Meant to mention that yesterday


----------



## BrianHughes

cwaring said:


> The PIN is usually the last four digits of the number on your Sky Card. Sorry. Meant to mention that yesterday


I'll bet most kids know that already. Very secure - NOT


----------



## msui772

Sky really don't want TiVo to work! 
At first I thought this PIN thing was simply done for their own benefit in total disregard for TiVo or other automatic recording devices. I could understand that a company the size of SKY could simply not care about TiVo users. What really disgusted me was that they changed their policy on permissible PINs subsequent to the workaround made available for the TiVo community. 
(For those who don't know: Sky CS will refuse to set the first digit of a PIN to zero so that a pin entered when not requested will always change the channel!)
SKY appear to be deliberately sabotaging any attempts to use recorders other than SKY+. 

It makes me sick.

Michael.


----------



## Automan

Once you know what the pin is you can change it via the pin menu on your sky box.

It will then let you select 0000

Automan.



msui772 said:


> Sky really don't want TiVo to work!
> At first I thought this PIN thing was simply done for their own benefit in total disregard for TiVo or other automatic recording devices. I could understand that a company the size of SKY could simply not care about TiVo users. What really disgusted me was that they changed their policy on permissible PINs subsequent to the workaround made available for the TiVo community.
> (For those who don't know: Sky CS will refuse to set the first digit of a PIN to zero so that a pin entered when not requested will always change the channel!)
> SKY appear to be deliberately sabotaging any attempts to use recorders other than SKY+.
> 
> It makes me sick.
> 
> Michael.


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## jeremy Parsons

UPDATe , got my V+ box the HD feature is amazing , same about no content, given i can move the boxes around the V+ is in the bedroom and tivo 1 and 2 remain the main boxes downstairs. If VM ever get enough HD content I will swap them around and move tivo 1 upstairs. Also movies will be only available upstairs.

It works but how i wish V+ was a tivo product, als the fast forward and pause is flaky in HD


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## blindlemon

jeremy Parsons said:


> It works but how i wish V+ was a tivo product


Then write to Virgin and tell them!

The V+ can theoretically be upgraded *OTA* to TiVo functionality as it is the same hardware as one of the boxes used by Cox Communications in the US who have signed up for TiVo to do exactly that to their cable DVRs.


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## cwaring

To that end, I've just set up this page:
http://www.virginmediainfo.co.uk/tivopetition.shtml

It's not 'live' on the site yet (ie not linked to from anywhere) and of course there's no petition yet. I just wanted some feedback on any improvements/changes that people might want to suggest.

Yes, some of it is from Gary's site and I do intend to ask his permission to use it


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## Raisltin Majere

cwaring said:


> To that end, I've just set up this page:
> http://www.virginmediainfo.co.uk/tivopetition.shtml
> 
> It's not 'live' on the site yet (ie not linked to from anywhere) and of course there's no petition yet. I just wanted some feedback on any improvements/changes that people might want to suggest.
> 
> Yes, some of it is from Gary's site and I do intend to ask his permission to use it


I've only had a quick look, but didn't see wishlists on there?


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## cwaring

D'oh!  Will add that now


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## martink0646

cwaring said:


> To that end, I've just set up this page:
> http://www.virginmediainfo.co.uk/tivopetition.shtml
> 
> It's not 'live' on the site yet (ie not linked to from anywhere) and of course there's no petition yet. I just wanted some feedback on any improvements/changes that people might want to suggest.


Hi Carl, Just to put my four penn'orth in as aked, it seems to me that if you are just trying to catch people from here its fine as they know what it's all about already, but if you are trying to attract casual browsers it might need to be a bit more 'punchy'. I'm not sure someone would read all the way down? Maybe sum up the aim in a new title & first paragraph & then explain it as you have done?

Martin


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## cwaring

Okie-Dokie. I'll give it a try later. Thanks.


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## jeremy Parsons

Count me in for a vote , its worth a try!


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## cwaring

It's on the way!

An un-named source at VM has just told me that they (ie VM) _have_ had meeting with Tivo but "nothing has been agreed or decided".

So there's a chance


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## Raisltin Majere

cwaring said:


> It's on the way!
> 
> An un-named source at VM has just told me that they (ie VM) _have_ had meeting with Tivo but "nothing has been agreed or decided".
> 
> So there's a chance


Are they going to expand geographically so I can get excited about this?


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## cwaring

That I don't know


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## Mike Jones

Thank you Gary - just got Sky Movies on a three month trial for £1 a month and very fed up with the pin. I knew there would be a solution on here. Best website ever!


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## GOODMAP

Mike Jones said:


> Thank you Gary - just got Sky Movies on a three month trial for £1 a month and very fed up with the pin. I knew there would be a solution on here. Best website ever!


I'd like to second that opinion as I have also just taken advantage of the Sky Movies offer and then fell foul of the dreaded PIN requests! Will be trying this workaround at the weekend.


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## Leif_Davidsen

Is it possible to use the fix for PIN for the movie channels if you have an unmodified Tivo without cachecard or network connection or similar? We got given 3 months of Sky free and I am using Tivo to pull down a number of movies but it is annoying to get hit by this - but we don't have the option to alter the script that Gary's note seems to say we need to do


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## slimjime17

Hi All,

Just noticed that Virgin have changed the pin protection on the cable boxes, it still doesn't let you turn it off but the red button no longer needs pressing before entering the pin.

Has anybody got the irblast_pin working with a Virgin cable box? I have a Samsung 2100?

If yes, then I might give it a go.

Thanks

Slim

Here is a workaround the problem above:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5448365&&#post5448365

Slim


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## mrtickle

Leif_Davidsen said:


> Is it possible to use the fix for PIN for the movie channels if you have an unmodified Tivo without cachecard or network connection or similar? We got given 3 months of Sky free and I am using Tivo to pull down a number of movies but it is annoying to get hit by this - but we don't have the option to alter the script that Gary's note seems to say we need to do


Unfortunately you do need some way of running the script. It could be done in theory by putting the drive into a PC and installing it perfectly, set to run at start up perfectly etc but if it wasn't right or you wanted to change it later it's a huge amount of hassle to have to keep putting the drive into a PC.

The cheapest way is with a £6 serial cable (see the first link in my sig below), but it's not as nice as a proper network card. You'll benefit greatly with other capabilities like Tivoweb and the Tracker module etc, should you decide to spend the extra money on a network card.


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