# Will you upgrade to a Series 4?



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Would like to know if your going to upgrade to series 4. 

Either add it as an additional unit, or replacing a unit, or even undecided.

I will move my S3 to the bedroom, Put the new unit on my 65" plasma.

Then will eBay the TiVo HD unit.

TGC


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## FrancesTheMute (Sep 17, 2005)

Nope. Since I'd still have to use a Tuning Adapter I'll be passing.


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## rmcurtis (May 26, 2004)

I've got a Series 2 and a Tivo HD. I could see one day replacing the Series 2 with a Permiere whenever we get a 2nd HDTV. But I'll wait a while and see how this new series works out.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

I was about to buy my first Tivo, and I waited for this announcement. I am not blown away by the improvements, but I am optimistic this will be better for future updates. I thought for sure they would have Hulu with that tagline. Part of me still wants to hit up Ebay to get a Tivo HD for cheap, but I think I will just suck it up and buy a Premiere or Premiere XL and hope that it gets some sweet updates in the future.


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## Qwijib0 (Nov 29, 2007)

Not enough stuff for me to justify a $300 upgrade from an HD or use it as an additional unit.

No MRV streaming (instead of copy, to solve CCI problems), and no multi-tivo To Do list sync.

All the whiz-bang internet connectivity would be extremely useful if content providers would allow anything that netflix has on DVD to stream.

But they don't. 

Which makes this a $300 UI upgrade-- hardly lives up to the 'hype'.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

Qwijib0 said:


> Not enough stuff for me to justify a $300 upgrade from an HD or use it as an additional unit.
> . . .
> Which makes this a $300 UI upgrade-- hardly lives up to the 'hype'.


Yeah. "Absolutely not" is a bit harsh. But I have 2 TivoHDs, which is enough, especially since another is $300. So I'm using those until they break, especially the lifetime one.

Sure, I'd like that new UI. But there's nothing else compelling.


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## Millionaire2K (Jun 16, 2008)

FrancesTheMute said:


> Nope. Since I'd still have to use a Tuning Adapter I'll be passing.


I don't understand. Why would you need a tuning adapter?


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## Qwijib0 (Nov 29, 2007)

Millionaire2K said:


> I don't understand. Why would you need a tuning adapter?


SDV Digital Cable channels


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## FrancesTheMute (Sep 17, 2005)

Millionaire2K said:


> I don't understand. Why would you need a tuning adapter?


Since the cable companies suck and have started using SDV, which means that a Tivo as a one-way device, can't get SDV channels (on TWC San Diego, about half the HD channels are SDV) You need the tuning adapter to talk upstream to your Cable company to let it know what channel you are trying to watch. I had bad experiences with TWC san diego and their horrid support of cableCARD and tuning adapters.


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## Guy1in10 (Oct 30, 2006)

Stupid me paid the $600 early adopter penalty to get the Series 3 only for a few months later the HD to come out for 1/2 the cost. But I sucked it up...and now after 3 years my service contract expired a couple of months ago so I waited before I renew a contract (to save on the monthly fee) in hopes they'd release the Series 4. I am SO very disappointed. I was anxious to see what exciting new features would be added and would have been willing to pay for a new box if it was a big improvement but I agree, the UI is really the only standout about the new unit and for $300 or $500 plus extra for the better remote but $90!!!!! for a n wireless adapter. It's like they are trying to go out of business. FAIL. *double sigh*


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## jtgamble (Sep 12, 2008)

I'll probably upgrade my HD at some point later this year. I love the new UI, and I think there is a lot of potential here. A couple of the live blogs I read had mention of TiVo using flash partly because they wanted to make it easier for developers to work with. Not to mention some of the things that weren't mentioned but look to be hinted at via UI screenshots. I'm particularly intrigued by adding users (ala http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/2010-02-08tivos4ui-6-1267573420.jpg) so that I don't have to dig through my wife's reality shows anymore, and so that I get more accurate recommendations - some shows TiVo recommends neither of us like at all because its some weird combo of our individual tastes that tivo is picking up on.

I guess, more than anything, I'm excited by the possibilities of the new UI and hope that we'll be seeing more info as release approaches and over the first few months it is out.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I'll probably get a Series4/Premiere eventually. As an early adopter of the Series3, I spent a bunch of money for the hardware and transfer of Lifetime Service from my Series2. Both are still in use, so the "need" is not there. The "want" is, but I can get by for awhile, and hopefully the price will come down. Although the 50% off Lifetime Service (for existing Lifetime Service subscribers) is pretty enticing...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

FrancesTheMute said:


> Since the cable companies suck and have started using SDV, which means that a Tivo as a one-way device, can't get SDV channels (on TWC San Diego, about half the HD channels are SDV) You need the tuning adapter to talk upstream to your Cable company to let it know what channel you are trying to watch. I had bad experiences with TWC san diego and their horrid support of cableCARD and tuning adapters.


TWC Southwest Ohio has been furnishing TA's for over a year now and I don't think they will ever get them to be reliable or will ever learn how to support them -- and I doubt they care about it.

All three of my worst problems with my TiVo HD relate to SDV channels and the Tuning Adapter. One of them (pixelation on SDV channels) is actually a TiVo problem -- proven beyond a doubt. Will TiVo fix it in an update? Then there's failure to tune (equals lost recordings) and the TA losing functionality requiring a minimum 30 mins on the phone with TWC about once per month.

I've only had my HD for 9 months. Why would I upgrade to something that still uses a TA, thus still having my worst problems ?

Maybe the DirecTV HD TiVo will be worth switching to.


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## RealityCheck (Feb 15, 2007)

No, because TiVo's support for existing customers stink. When the TiVo Series3 premiered, they hinted full M-Card support was forthcoming, but were waiting for CableLab's certification process to be finalized. Then, the TiVo HD drops with full M-Card support and not another peep about it for S3 customers (rumors persist it having something to do with the chipset, but I think it's the $250K certification fee for a platform cash-strapped TiVo sees as dead). Now, TiVo drops hints of a new HD UI interface with TiVo Search; with a true UI update restricted to "Premier" boxes. I'm sorry, but enough is enough. There's no reason current hardware can't support an HD UI. Perhaps if TiVo didn't utilize Flash or Adobe Air; it wouldn't need a marginally beefed up CPU to actually display it. They won't even provide a true 16:9 480p UI for existing customers. TiVo already has my money so they don't need to care. They won't receive any more.

The day Apple decides to launch a DVR, TiVo is dead. Even Apple extended true, full OS updates to PowerPC customers longer than TiVo to S3 users.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

If the picture in guide window can't be disabled in the now playing list, that's a deal breaker.


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## aggarcia (Aug 27, 2002)

I plan on getting several of the new Tivo Premiere boxes. I still have an old Directivo. I plan on leaving Directv in June, so these new boxes are timely. For Series 3/HD users not much of a upgrade. Older series of Tivo will get more bang for the buck if moving from SD to HD.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I would propose "LOL" as a 6th poll option, but I guess that would fall under "No".


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DrewTivo said:


> "Absolutely not" is a bit harsh.


Agree. I have two S3s and love them. I don't need another TiVo. So the answer is no. But if/when I do, or when a feature becomes UMF, I will.


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## shiftless (Oct 9, 2007)

When the Series 3 came out, Tivo accepted lifetime transfers from the Series 2 to the Series 3 during the first few weeks after it was released. I hope they'll do the same for the Premiere!


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I have two TivoHD's. One in the living room has the 500GB expander. Only way I'd upgrade is maybe if I could sell my living room one without contract and make enough to only have the upgrade be around $100. Any more and it's not worth it just for the UI upgrade.

Still pissed we waited forever for an actual HD interface only to be given the finger.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

shiftless said:


> When the Series 3 came out, Tivo accepted lifetime transfers from the Series 2 to the Series 3 during the first few weeks after it was released. I hope they'll do the same for the Premiere!


That wasn't free though, was it? I know I paid to get my S1 lifetime ported to my S3, anyway.


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## carios23 (Jan 19, 2009)

I was holding up for this announcement but I think I am just going to switch to a moxi when my contract is up. I was hoping for a 3 hd tuner and something to replace the slingcatcher/slingbox set up I got right now. I can only watch one feed like this. Still, 800 for a moxi and mate is kinda steep, hopefully I get enough on ebay for my stuff.


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## Lenonn (May 31, 2004)

Nope, no upgrade here. I have three third gen TiVos (two HDs and a Series 3) and one second gen one (series 2 single tuner) active.

Quite frankly, cable cards are still such a pain in the rear to deal with (plus, I have enough money going to cable as it is) that I'm fine with things the way they are now. And the "Series 4"s just aren't enough of an "upgrade" in my opinion to justify the expense.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm about to kick Charter to the curb, so unless this unit somehow has IPTV or satellite compatibility, the answer will have to be no.


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## KyleLC (Feb 6, 2002)

shiftless said:


> When the Series 3 came out, Tivo accepted lifetime transfers from the Series 2 to the Series 3 during the first few weeks after it was released. I hope they'll do the same for the Premiere!


You could also transfer lifetime from Series 1, which is what I did.


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm a single Tivo household, and my TivoHD with cablecard on Comcast has been pretty much flawless. It may not be as pretty or as fast as the new Series 4, but it still does everything I "need". Between cable and Netflix, it already provides me with more interesting content than I have time to watch. I'm not yet seeing a compelling reason to upgrade. If something new comes along, then maybe I'll consider it. So my answer to the survey is "not now, but maybe later".


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## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

I have 3 TiVo HD boxes and will not be upgrading because I'm happy with what I got and haven't got my money's worth out of the boxes yet. Also, it seems the TiVo Search Beta that is already accessible from my TiVos gives a lot of the same functionality that the New UI gives. Hopefully they won't be removing it.


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## ianfarrell (Jul 22, 2004)

FrancesTheMute said:


> Nope. Since I'd still have to use a Tuning Adapter I'll be passing.


Same here.
The Tuning Adapter has been a nightmare.
All I get is the Cable Company blaming TiVo and Tivo blaming the cable company.
Until TiVo decides to support true two way communications I'll be skipping future products.


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## Gruggy (Jan 9, 2004)

There isn't enough new stuff in the Premier that would make me want to move up from my Tivo HD. I also have a Series 2 that is still running, but I were to replace that, I would probably just buy a refurbed HD. 

Looking at the specs on the Tivo website, I don't see what is so revolutionary about the Premier, especially compared to the current S3/HD. Why orphan the Series 3 platform like the Series 2? I understand that technology evolves, but I don't see any reason why these software enhancements can't be pushed out to the Series 3/HD/XL.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yes but only because my mom needs two of my HDs. As a result it will be probably not cost me anything.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

CableCARD tuners in my HTPC = bye bye Tivo. $0 in monthly fees except for a single CableCARD rental vs. CableCARD fee plus the Tivo fee makes it a no-brainer for me.  Guide data doesn't cost anything if you have a DVR app on your PC. I shouldn't have to pay Tivo or anyone else for the right to use hardware I already paid for. The one thing that keeps Tivo alive (i.e., monthly subscriptions to the Tivo service) is the one thing that will eventually be their downfall. People are tired of having to pay for services they can get for free elsewhere.


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## KrazyKiko (Mar 21, 2006)

I will certainly upgrade my Series2 unit; Having a Tivo HD downstairs has been a dream come true for dual recording. Seems the networks like to schedule all our favorite shows at the same time and 3 tuners isn't enough. Replacing the S2 with a Premiere will be ideal. Luckily, we only get basic cable and OTA HD content so I'm not too disappointed in some of these other features peole are discussing (SDV-support, etc). Plus, we get a new hardware discount (20%) if we buy online...


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## mellenfan (Oct 22, 2008)

They missed the boat not offering 4 tuners. The series 4 is a lot of hype and not much substance. I can download movies on my series 3 from Netflix, Blockbuster, watch YouTube, blah, blah, blah. 

If they offered 4 tuners and support for sdv - that would have been a step forward. 

The step back was putting the cable card slot in the back of the unit. Real convenient to pull the Tivo out of my rack for the cable compnay to install/re-install cable cards until they find some that work. 

Tivo took a weak step for series 4.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Probably... I love TiVo, the other options are non-starters for me so my choices are either sit pat on my S2 and S3 or keep moving with TiVo. The price is good on the new box... I can get the discount on the new lifetime sub for the Premiere (assuming that offer remains) and my local CableCo has been very good about installing and supporting CableCards. So I don't have some of the complaints and hurdles that other users have.

And really, I am more excited about that qwerty than anything else. Just imagine the way that thing can change how we interact with our TVs. Looking for a show and don't remember the channel number? Start typing the show name and watch it only show the channels with that show on right now. Start typing a channel name and watch it limit down to those channels. I never remember channel numbers and I have to surf for sports shows all the time... if I could just start typing "Bengals" and have it bring up whichever channel the Bengals game is playing on? Awesome.

The qwerty opens up facebook integration, twitter integration, e-mail, web.... is some of that superfluous? Sure. But I promise you, the difference between me getting out my laptop to show my fiance the video of my niece my brother sent me on facebook and me using the TiVo is that qwerty... without it, the navigation is slow and awkward.. with it?

I mean, do any of you have palm pre's? The way palm makes use of that qwerty to circumvent menu's and simplify navigation is amazing. If there is any company TiVo should emulate in terms of navigation, it is Palm and the WebOS platform.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mellenfan said:


> They missed the boat not offering 4 tuners. The series 4 is a lot of hype and not much substance. I can download movies on my series 3 from Netflix, Blockbuster, watch YouTube, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> If they offered 4 tuners and support for sdv - that would have been a step forward.
> 
> ...


The market for a 4 tuner DVR is so small... I really think you (and others!) are overstating that. It's this tiny % of the already small % of TiVo users. I mean, does a single hard drive even have the throughput capabilities to read/write 4 buffers at once? You're looking at an array to get that done reliably. Most users would not pay a premium for additional tuners.

SDV and that whole boat is a mess... TiVo needs to fight that in the court systems and get the government to basically tell the cable-co's they will have to be like the phone system and standardize. I am sorry if that stifles innovation on the TV networks... that's why we have the internet. Use it, Cable Cos. The cable lines are for TV. Use the internet for data. But trying to play ball with someone's proprietary network when they don't want you to is a losing battle... they will find ways to make your life harder than it's worth.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

Lenonn said:


> Nope, no upgrade here. I have three third gen TiVos (two HDs and a Series 3) and one second gen one (series 2 single tuner) active.
> 
> Quite frankly, cable cards are still such a pain in the rear to deal with (plus, I have enough money going to cable as it is) that I'm fine with things the way they are now. And the "Series 4"s just aren't enough of an "upgrade" in my opinion to justify the expense.


Cable Cards. That's seriously effecting my decision too. It was such a pain to get them working on my S3 in the first place with Comcast. I can't imagine it has gotten better/easier. I live in fear of them dropping off and having to call Comcast again. (knock on wood)


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

I am disgusted with Tivo (the company, not the product). I got a Series 3 in December, 2006 when I got an HD receiver. No lifetime contract was available, just three years. On top of that, the Series 3 was not yet ready for prime-time: Some features not available. Pixelation (they promoted Series 3 to FIOS customers and when problems occured washed their hands and said they don't support FIOS). 

Shortly after I signed up for three years, they announced a lifetime contract but would not let me upgrade. My three year contract expired at the end of last year, and I went and paid full price for a lifetime contract. Now they have a new box they want to sell (with a new service contract). No, thank you! 

I saw a promotional piece on Tivo (the company) a while back. Some slick B-school type has the big corner office and runs the show. The guy who invented Tivo sits in some cubicle. This pretty much captures what Tivo (the company is). I love the product (as do a lot of people), so they figure they've got us by the ballz and we just have to take what ever the greedy SOBs decide to dish out. If FIOS or Comcast came out with a DVR that wasn't a total POS, I'd bail in a minute. I wish a Japanese company had a DVR since they know how to build customer satisfaction and loyalty; they don't treat customers with total contempt like Tivo (OK, and Toyota lately).

Doesn't look like their customer base as represented here has much interest in their new box. That should tell Tivo something but I doubt if they care. I doubt if anybody at Tivo pays any attention to this board and what their customers try to tell them.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Stinging poll results... and this is favorable Tivo territory.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

RealityCheck said:


> There's no reason current hardware can't support an HD UI. Perhaps if TiVo didn't utilize Flash or Adobe Air; it wouldn't need a marginally beefed up CPU to actually display it. They won't even provide a true 16:9 480p UI for existing customers. TiVo already has my money so they don't need to care.


I think there is a good reason why they have orphaned S3/HD customers: Flash is a big fat pig. I hate using sites that use Flash; they always feel sluggish compared to real AJAX sites. And the widgets feel "funky". Tivo has made some deal with Adobe, and the antiquated chip they have been sticking in S3/HD line isn't up to snuff for running this piggish UI technology.

There are other alternatives to Flash that require less CPU power, but I am sure they were harder to program (Flash is typically easier), wouldn't let Tivo align with Adobe and whatever sweet deal they have worked out, and wouldn't drive a bunch of fools to abandon their lifetime subs to their S3 if they got the new UI "for free". Tivo is milking their installed base with this. To them, it is a "benefit" not a problem. Pay up!

I'd be thrilled to have the current UI re-released as you say with a true 480p or 720p interface without ANY freakin' glitz---just a true 16:9 aspect ratio that doesn't look stretched. I am sure they considered this, but some executive laughed his arse off when he realized that orphaning S3/HD customers would just drive more sales. He probably got a sweet bonus, too.

I work on user interfaces for a living but I have to say a release with almost no new features other than eye candy is a weak arse update. "Series 4"--more marketing than substance.


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## RiyanWeb (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm all over the new tivo Series 4... I'm that i just got my S3 not even a month ago & now i cant upgrade cuz i just paid up to a grand for my S3 with lifetime subscription....


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

The screenshot showing an ad being listed as a show in the My Show listings gets me to say no. Sorry, but I like a listing of shows that I recorded.. not shows Tivo wants me to watch. Huge difference. Sticking to TivoHD for now and a HTPC in near future.


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## amheck (Dec 7, 2002)

I came here this morning figured there'd be an uproar about no TA in the S4. But it doesn't seem to be the case. I thought FOR SURE this announcement would let us know there was a TA in the next-gen TIVO. 

I desperately want to drop my cable company's DVR in favor of a few Tivo's, but I'm not willing to miss channels. What a bummer.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

dlfl said:


> All three of my worst problems with my TiVo HD relate to SDV channels and the Tuning Adapter. One of them (pixelation on SDV channels) is actually a TiVo problem -- proven beyond a doubt. Will TiVo fix it in an update?...
> I've only had my HD for 9 months. Why would I upgrade to something that still uses a TA, thus still having my worst problems ?


Over a period of months, I struggled with eliminating my "signal strength" issues with my new Tivo HD. It was awful and painful and expensive, but I tried everything---but it worked with the help of the wonderful Tivo Community (not Tivo the company---they just swap boxes at a high cost. Bah). But I never went through this with my S2. That was rock solid. I have Lifetime.

Now that I have no signal strength issues, I am patiently waiting for Tivo to fix my SDV macroblocking/pixelation issues. How can you get NO RS errors and a picture that looks like total crap? Answer: When it is a SDV channel (all of my non SDV channels look awesome, and that is sometimes WITH RS errors). I get terrible pixelation on SyFy HD (a SDV channel on Charter). That channel is fine on Charter's own craptastic cable boxes. My only work around is record my SyFy shows off hours when people are doing less surfing; it isn't perfect, but it helps a lot. I feel like I am using a VCR with all of the manual effort since you can't force a season pass to record only off hours, to workaround this issue. Bah.

I am on Charter (not TWC like most others afflicted with the SDV software bug). When I saw the Tuning Adapter was still required with the new "premiere" I laughed my arse off. They have GOT to be kidding. I wouldn't spend a penny on a solution that didn't eliminate that "bag of hurt".

I LOVE my Tivo --- when it works as expected. But I cannot recommend Tivo to anyone.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

Emacee said:


> Now they have a new box they want to sell (with a new service contract). No, thank you!


My Tivo HD turns one year old later this month, and it has Lifetime. There is nothing compelling about the Tivo Premiere. They'd have to practically give it away for me to care. Really.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

KyleLC said:


> You could also transfer lifetime from Series 1, which is what I did.


I have a Series 1 with lifetime. Is there a way to transfer that lifetime to a new Series 4? I am going to do that if there is. I also have a TiVoHD with lifetime and I am delighted with it and have been trying to figure out an affordable way to get an HD TiVo of some sort connected to another display. I only use OTA and internet downloading and streaming options now and plan to stick with that. With my existing TiVoHD, I connected it to my network using a Linksys WGA600N ethernet to wireless adapter and that seemed to work fine and I assume that will work the same with this new model so I hope I won't need the $90 USB adapter.

As far as the new TiVo Premiere, it looks great to me, even if it is only a nice upgrade to my existing TiVoHD and not a quantum leap beyond it. I didn't expect the new TiVo to be able to teleport the actors into my living room live or anything else astonishing and only hoped for significant improvements and it appears we are going to get that so count me in the group that is happy with the new product. I am not able to afford buying another TiVo with lifetime so without some way to realize some value from my Series 1, I am sitting on the sidelines but not because I don't like what is offered.

Chris


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

I already have a TiVo HD so all i'll miss is the new UI so i probably won't upgrade without a "trade-in" deal 

Maybe wait for S5...


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

jonja said:


> I think there is a good reason why they have orphaned S3/HD customers: Flash is a big fat pig. . . .
> I'd be thrilled to have the current UI re-released as you say with a true 480p or 720p interface without ANY freakin' glitz---just a true 16:9 aspect ratio that doesn't look stretched.


Yeah, I understand why S3 boxes can't handle the full S4 software. But it sure would be nice if they created a "lite" version without all the flash "goodness" for us. I mean, does the chip really not have the power to calculate available space?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I have a Series 1 with lifetime. Is there a way to transfer that lifetime to a new Series 4?


No, but you can get %50 off the full PL price if you have PL already, which I think you qualfy for that deal.


> With my existing TiVoHD, I connected it to my network using a Linksys WGA600N ethernet to wireless adapter and that seemed to work fine and I assume that will work the same with this new model so I hope I won't need the $90 USB adapter.


I don't see that changing.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Myself, no.

I simply get no TV service worthwhile to obtain anything but a Series 2.

Digital OTA is just a dream, and something I get on skip, nothing regular. My only other option is analog antenna, or satellite, and the couple analog channels could record fine with the Series 2. I also am not eligible to receive much of the online content available to it. So basically, I'd be stuck with a box that at most would do nothing more than record two or three analog channels.


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## dasv (Dec 1, 2009)

jonja said:


> Over a period of months, I struggled with eliminating my "signal strength" issues with my new Tivo HD. It was awful and painful and expensive, but I tried everything---but it worked with the help of the wonderful Tivo Community (not Tivo the company---they just swap boxes at a high cost. Bah). But I never went through this with my S2. That was rock solid. I have Lifetime.
> 
> Now that I have no signal strength issues, I am patiently waiting for Tivo to fix my SDV macroblocking/pixelation issues. How can you get NO RS errors and a picture that looks like total crap? Answer: When it is a SDV channel (all of my non SDV channels look awesome, and that is sometimes WITH RS errors). I get terrible pixelation on SyFy HD (a SDV channel on Charter). That channel is fine on Charter's own craptastic cable boxes. My only work around is record my SyFy shows off hours when people are doing less surfing; it isn't perfect, but it helps a lot. I feel like I am using a VCR with all of the manual effort since you can't force a season pass to record only off hours, to workaround this issue. Bah.
> 
> ...


I hear you. I could not take dealing with the tuning adapter on Time warner so I switched to Directv and so did 2 of my friends for the same reason. It blows my mind that this tuning adapter issue has not been resolved.


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

I voted no, because at this time I dont see Tivo as being progressive, or proactive in resolving issue they already have. SO NO i will not buy what in essence will become another boat anchor. This is just my opinion & I think the saying goes. " Opinions & buttholes are the same, everyone has one & they all stink" LOL


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

If TiVo said that S3 Users could trade in their TiVo and get a Premiere at an enticing discount AND let people transfer their lifetime subscription for like $100 I think they would get a lot more people to buy, including myself

BTW tru2way and an extra tuner would have ensured a Premiere to make an appearance in my home, even without a special deal. 

Hulu, some form of ticker (sports scores, news, weather, etc... like moxi), sling-esque watching, picture in picture (watching the game and something else at the same time), tivo to tivo streaming, plug and play (plug my flash drive into it and be able to transfer a program, with live trans-coding to mov or mp4), iPhone app, would have also been nice, but theres always the next series! 

Oh Well


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## reubanks (Feb 19, 2006)

It looks like I'll be upgrading my S2ST to a Premier because of the lifetime discount. (yeah, I know it's really only a $100 discount...) but I have been using the S2ST in my garage and have to transfer anything I watch out there since I don't have a FiOS box or digital antenna converter for it.

It works, but I would prefer to have an active tuner or 2. (It would also be good for MY programming so the wife and kids don't bump the latest "Big Bang Theory" episode!)


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## JohnnyCruzr (Mar 19, 2009)

I voted "Absolutely not" as well.

I had to purchase a HD just a little over a year ago when my cable co. went all digital and made my several year old Series 2 obsolete.

While I love my Tivo, I have always had an issue (like most others) paying for a service that is available for free elsewhere.

This announcement was VERY non-climatic, I figured new hardware was coming, but I was hoping for at least a price drop as well.

I will be calling Tivo today to see if they will give me the $99 lifetime upgrade, which I doubt. (I pre-paid for the first year, and have been on the month-to-month waiting for this announcement) 

If they won't give me the $99 upgrade, my Series 2 and my HD will be sold to help pay for the Moxi hardware. It seems pricey, but with no monthly fees will pay for itself over time.


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## mellenfan (Oct 22, 2008)

Grakthis said:


> The market for a 4 tuner DVR is so small... I really think you (and others!) are overstating that. It's this tiny % of the already small % of TiVo users. I mean, does a single hard drive even have the throughput capabilities to read/write 4 buffers at once? You're looking at an array to get that done reliably. Most users would not pay a premium for additional tuners.
> 
> SDV and that whole boat is a mess... TiVo needs to fight that in the court systems and get the government to basically tell the cable-co's they will have to be like the phone system and standardize. I am sorry if that stifles innovation on the TV networks... that's why we have the internet. Use it, Cable Cos. The cable lines are for TV. Use the internet for data. But trying to play ball with someone's proprietary network when they don't want you to is a losing battle... they will find ways to make your life harder than it's worth.


AT&T has 4 tuners for their U-Verse dvr and so does DISH. It's quite doable with one hard drive. The percentage of people that want this option is higher than you think.

How many times have you been watching a live sports show and Tivo wants the tuner you're using to record a second show??


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

I still am trucking along fine with three series 2's but I might upgrade/add to my current line up. I will be waiting a few months to see how well the series 4 does. I do like the "latest and greatest" when it comes to tech but I usually wait a few months (years when it comes to Microsoft) before I take the plunge. I like the bugs to be some what worked out before I buy.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

csm10495 said:


> Hulu, some form of ticker (sports scores, news, weather, etc... like moxi), sling-esque watching, picture in picture (watching the game and something else at the same time), tivo to tivo streaming, plug and play (plug my flash drive into it and be able to transfer a program, with live trans-coding to mov or mp4), iPhone app, would have also been nice, but theres always the next series!


All of those are still possible on this platform.

Hulu unlikely due to participating network ban of Hulu on boxes connected to TVs.
Sling not likely due to sling complications, esp if they have to get cablelabs approval.
Live transcoding is likely limited to whatever the broadcom chip can do natively, but I imagine being able to dump to a flash drive would not make cablelabs happy.
The ticker things are clearly in their plans for widgets though, and an iPhone app already exists (Android too iirc).


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

When I upgraded from my S2, I felt like TiVo had really fully exploited the platform... squeezed everything out of it they could. I was happy to pay the early adopter tax when the S3 came out and I'm still relatively happy with my purchase.

However, I don't feel like TiVo got everything they could out of the platform, the On Demand offerings are mediocre, there have been several disappointments, and there's a pile of niggling bugs, many of which are likely never to be dealt with. So, I'm left with a feeling of "meh". I won't be getting the new box... certainly not as long as I feel like they still haven't gotten the old boxes right.


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## slude (Feb 9, 2008)

RiyanWeb said:


> I'm all over the new tivo Series 4... I'm that i just got my S3 not even a month ago & now i cant upgrade cuz i just paid up to a grand for my S3 with lifetime subscription....


TiVo has a 30-day no-charge window within which you can cancel a subscription. If, as you say, you just got a lifetime subscription on your S3 "not even a month ago" then you can call in and get the lifetime subscription fee refunded and be out only the purchase price of the S3 (and you could return that as well if you bought it at retail).

I had switched my TivoHD to a lifetime sub less than 30 days ago and was on the phone with TiVo less than 10 minutes after the announcement yesterday to cancel it. It took a few minutes because it was the first time the rep had gone through the process but they didn't hassle me at all about the cancellation.


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## anuyag (Apr 18, 2006)

Wow, flash-based UI being heralded as a good thing? Very strange. The world is fast giving up on flash and moving away from it. This is so very strange and truly the wrong direction to be going in. 

I agree with most posters. This is a real downer of an upgrade.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Voted undecided. I definitely don't need this since I have 2 Tivo HDs already. But the new interface looks nice and I want it. I like the Tivo Search Beta, but it is unusable on the Tivo HD because of the speed. If the box was more responsive I think it would be very nice.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

I thought Hulu possibly because of TiVo's associations with Comcast who now owns (i think) nbc which has a 32% stake in Hulu itself, maybe a deal could have been made, at least for nbc's programing.

Maybe they should have just put a web browser in it. So you can pick your website and use the on-board flash to playback videos and even play games 

A Full Web Browser in my TiVo would be quite interesting :up:

The QWERTY remote could come in handy there as well


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I don't plan to replace my fairly new, lifetimed HD units. In about a year (or so) I may purchase a series 4 unit else a used HD unit, depending on pricing of both, and, depending on what features the series 4 has (especially if it has something I don't wish to be without). Otherwise, I'll simply maintain the status quo and go with the flow until one of my units is beyond repair (else I switch to DirecTV).


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

I think I'm done with TiVo. I don't really need two TiVo's, and the two service fees, additional outlet fees, and cable card fees that come with them. Not to mention we still don't have cooperative scheduling, and there are starting to be too many issues with TiVos implementation of MRV. I just want my recordings available in another room, and even with the series 4, TiVo just barely does this (forcing me to run downstairs and turn the TV on to schedule a show on a different unit -- or to delete one).

The Moxi and the MoxiMate are looking more and more attractive, and I think I'll go that way once my subscription is up.

Plus, if the series 4 is TiVo's idea of a revolutionary product enhancement, that confirms my suspicion that TiVo has been clueless for quite some time. And not only clueless, but uninterested in, or incapable of, writing software that works. Why else would they choose a proprietary, high level authoring tool to build a new interface. $60 million a year in development; my ass (at least it ain't goin' into the product - perhaps it is all going into advertising technology).

The HD interface they are bringing to the series 4 it is too little, too late. Plus, they could have brought this to series 3 machines as well if they were not so lazy as to build it with flash. So now we have a third party's proprietary runtime encompassing TiVo's interface, another step further away from open standards.

And another disturbing thought I have about the choice of flash for the interface is its relative ease in inserting annoying animated content (can we all say advertising?). I have no interest in spending money on new hardware to supply TiVo more horsepower so that they can show me flash-based advertising content like practically every website on the planet.

I know this sounds a little harsh, but the disappointment I have had with TiVo over the last several years has been compounded by their hype ridden announcement&#8230; All flash -- no substance.

Ok ZT&#8230; your turn.


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## kevinwill1 (Apr 18, 2004)

Wow... I am more than a little disappointed with the new system. Don't get me wrong, the new box is definitely a step or 3 above all of my current Series 2s. But I have Extended Basic Analog cable with TWC, and I haven't upgraded to digital because I don't want to lose functionality with the TiVos I have. And it seems as though I would need digital cable to be able to take advantage of the new machine, but yet even if I do upgrade my TiVos and cable services, I will still be losing functionality, most glaringly MRV. That is a huge deal in my house.

I want to get away from TWC entirely, and I was somehow hoping the Premiere would work with DirecTV, or at least find some way to stream a program to another unit and get around the MRV hurdles. Either of those scenarios would push me to upgrade one or more of my TiVos in the very near future. Oh well, it looks like I am going to unhappily ride with TWC Extended Basic until they go all digital, or the the new DirecTV/TiVo unit (finally or if ever) gets released, whichever comes first. I'm definitely in no hurry to spend more money and get less use/enjoyment/functionality out of it.

I wouldn't necessarily say TiVo failed us on this one. For someone who has never owned a TiVo, or would just need one DVR in their home for one television and they have digital cable, this would be pretty awesome. But as a current and 8 yearish TiVo subscriber, I am underwhelmed at first glance. And if the groundwork is laid for future updates and upgrades to enhance the experience, which seems to be the case, the Premiere definitely has a lot of _future_ potential. Is TiVo holding out on us, or what? As for me making a "day one" purchase, or even a purchase this calendar year, I will politely say 'no, thank you' and stick with what I've got for as long as it still works.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

anuyag said:


> Wow, flash-based UI being heralded as a good thing? Very strange. The world is fast giving up on flash and moving away from it. This is so very strange and truly the wrong direction to be going in.
> 
> I agree with most posters. This is a real downer of an upgrade.


Indeed... Google is a driving force behind HTML5, having recently given up Gears. Expect them to push hard against Flash and Silverlight with it.


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## Pktrvl1 (Mar 4, 2008)

Get rid of the TA and then we can talk.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

Tivo is just trying to keep the platform fresh. From that perspective, it is long overdue. New Tivo buyers will get a treat for what I paid for my Tivo HD.

But let's face it: This upgrade only makes sense if you don't already have a Tivo that is HD capable. If you do, especially if you have Lifetime on a HD/S3 box, this doesn't make sense at all as an upgrade. Too little bang for way too much buck. Unless maybe you are interested in a second Tivo. (I have a S2 that I am letting go dark; I have no interest in 2 Tivos, though having 4 total tuners was nice. Whoops, S4 doesn't have more than 2 does it?)


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## arathena (Jul 12, 2008)

No. Absolutely not. I agree, that until TIVO can actually come up with two-way communication, so that i can get rid of the stupid tuning adapter, I will not upgrade. I currently have the HD Tivo, and 2 series 2. I would upgrade in a minute at least my main tivo, if it could support this. Not to mention, i cannot even get the features of my cable, like on-demand or PPV for UFC fights, etc. Right now, i'm highly considering moving to dish/direct, because the TIVO cannot support the features of cable anymore. I would save a lot of money in the run. Granted I would stay on if TIVO could fix these things, and I was really looking forward to this announcement, but this sucks.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

How about a not at this time option for the poll?

The TiVo Series 4 Premier is something I want, but will not be getting at this time. It's not because I am undecided or I absolutely will not upgrade too.

It comes down to the fact that it's to expensive for me to upgrade at this time, and I will get little benefit in doing so. All I would get is the New UI. Where I am currently living in Leyden, MA cable does not exist in the entire town. This means the box is OTA only. On top of that, DSL is not available in my area either, leaving the only broadband internet access through Hughes net Satellite. Anyone who has them, knows they suck, you pay 3 times as much as you do for cable internet, and they only offer 750KBPS and limit you to a maximum of 150MB per consecutive 24 hour period, if you go over, they turn you internet off for the next 24 hours. These leaves all broadband features of TiVo useless, even a single music choice music video puts me over. And the download just stops and fails when it hits the 150MB mark, you don't even get a partial video on the tivo or the option to resume. And you are left not able to pull up any webpages on your computer.

Other then the New UI, I don't see any benefit to me to upgrade right now that is worth shelling out extra money that I really should not be spending at this time.


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## JeffreyFry (Jul 31, 2004)

I have an old series 2 (old as in I installed it in 2003) and will be upgrading that until to the new Preimier series. My existing two HD TiVos will stay.


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## sampsas (Jul 31, 2009)

I voted Absolutely not as I have only Sat avail where I live and until they figure out how to do HD from a sat box then I will stick with my S2DT (only using 1 tuner) for now.... At least my replaytv can do 2 feeds!!!! and I paid $40 for it with the lifetime sub on it!!! yes I have to use WiRNS for it but that is fine with me... 1 time price!!!!


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

Pktrvl1 said:


> Get rid of the TA and then we can talk.


This was such a no brainer I can only conclude that Tivo is run by the same clueless MBAs as most other companies today. Overpaid execs whose brain mass seems almost entirely optimized for shoving money into their wallets.

Though an arrogant a-hole at times, the only exec I can think of that truly deserves to be filthy rich is Steve Jobs, if only because he gets it. Guess what: He isn't a MBA---he earned his position by founding the company he runs.

Most CEOs could be replaced with an actor reading from a script of canned responses, or even more cheaply, with a 100-line Eliza program that spits out such lottery-sized-compensation-deserving observations as "Make it flashy..ooh eye candy", "make them upgrade often. Milk 'em dry!", "get rid of 10% of the employees. Again. And again.", and "outsource all you can. What a bargain!"

I love my Tivo and my Apple products, but they are becoming foils to each other in how to run a company and make a compelling product that everyone wants to buy. So, I blame the Tivo execs. They get all of the rewards, so they deserve all of the blame.


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## box464 (Sep 17, 2006)

The Premiere looks interesting, but there are a few things holding this avid TiVo enthusiast back. 

The main issue that is keeping me from pre-ordering a Premiere today is the Lifetime Transfer "discount". Why can't I transfer a Lifetime Subscription to a new box? I don't want a discount (albeit a deep one), I want a free transfer. It seems like it wouldn't be a loss..I get a new box, I give my old box to a friend...they activate a new monthly/annual/lifetime membership. Heck, it would make them more money because the friend would probably go with monthly or annual and end up paying more than the lifetime fee.

Why isn't the QWERTY remote included? Disappointing. 

I'm also curious if the hacks that people have written for the Series 3/HD TiVos will continue working on the new boxes. I use a couple myself and would hate to lose that functionality. It's not a deal breaker tho.

Also, the Tuning Adapter: It's a pain. Is it TiVo's fault? No. 

The cable companies have been forced to adhere to laws that require them to allow CableCards and Tuning Adapters. Allowing their customers to use equipment they don't control offers them little money (other than the monthly CableCard/Tuning Adapter fees) and extra training costs for their technicians. They aren't going to make it easy for anyone else to come in and hook up to their content.

For now I'll stick to my TiVo HD, but the new box sure looks enticing..honestly it's mostly the QWERTY remote that has me jazzed! The option of setting up User Profiles is nice as well.


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## gamndbndr (Jul 3, 2007)

We were thinking about adding TiVo to our cabin once this announcement came. We only have OTA up there and use a PS3 to access Netflix. We have a S3 and S1 at home that we love.

But, no built in wireless networking? Come on TiVo - the Wii and PS3 both have it built in but I've got to add it for an additional $59 to this "looks like" a plug-and-play internet box + TV.

Going to pass until we get a wireless box that shows Hulu & Netflix HD together. Not wiring up the mountains for TV.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

classicsat said:


> No, but you can get %50 off the full PL price if you have PL already, which I think you qualfy for that deal.
> 
> I don't see that changing.


Thanks, I did log into TiVo.com and I can get lifetime for 50% off with a new TiVo. That is tempting but obvious not nearly as good as transfering lifetime from a Series 1 that is of no use to me now like Kyle seems to be suggesting is possible.

Chris


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

> Wow, flash-based UI being heralded as a good thing?


Yeah, I don't think Tivo understands that most people when they hear Flash think annoying, in your face, pop up ads.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

Grakthis said:


> The market for a 4 tuner DVR is so small... I really think you (and others!) are overstating that. It's this tiny % of the already small % of TiVo users. I mean, does a single hard drive even have the throughput capabilities to read/write 4 buffers at once? You're looking at an array to get that done reliably. Most users would not pay a premium for additional tuners.
> 
> SDV and that whole boat is a mess... TiVo needs to fight that in the court systems and get the government to basically tell the cable-co's they will have to be like the phone system and standardize. I am sorry if that stifles innovation on the TV networks... that's why we have the internet. Use it, Cable Cos. The cable lines are for TV. Use the internet for data. But trying to play ball with someone's proprietary network when they don't want you to is a losing battle... they will find ways to make your life harder than it's worth.


Okay how do you know this ? Plus Moxi is offering 3 tuners.. Which i would buy now. Apparently you never heard of the extender. A new hard drive can handle probably at least 10 streams. What is the cost difference, $100 ?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If I can sell two of my TiVo HD units with 1TB drives with lifetime for $550 each, I will buy two of the TiVo premier units. Since the one with a 320GB hard drive and lifetime will only be $500 each with the current $200 off lifetime.

Then I can always decide later if i want to add a 1TB drive to it since I have at least half a dozen 1TB drives lying around.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Something that may be enticing in the future is 3D and it may be in the XL Premiere look at this picture










Why else would it come with glasses?


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## pdbreen (Aug 8, 2007)

Just learned that my Series3 isn't lifetime (wasn't offered at the time of purchase) and the 3-year pre-pay expires in June. Given that I have lifetime on 2 earlier units (which have since found new homes), I think I will pull the trigger and get a Premiere. The sluggish UI on the Series3 has been annoying for a long time - and, I still hold out hope that features such as DLNA will be added in the future, just as Netflix was in the past.

Now, just need to figure out if it's worth the extra $200 for the XL (with the 3d glasses!)


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## freediverdude (Jul 27, 2006)

From what I understand, the glasses are for calibrating the display, lol. My outdated S2DT already does the Amazon Unbox and Rhapsody music......what's all that new and revolutionary about this again?


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

csm10495 said:


> Something that may be enticing in the future is 3D and it may be in the XL Premiere look at this picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The glasses are for the THX calibration. Sorry no 3D  At least with those glasses.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

> The glasses are for the THX calibration. Sorry no 3D At least with those glasses


Yeah i began to figure that, but 3D might have been fun if that kind of programing was ever widely available


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## n0pa (Aug 29, 2006)

No. For for a number of reasons, but the main one being that there is no more 30 second skip. It is now a 30 second slip. It's the same "Feature" that Direct TV has. I don't really enjoy it. For the extra eye candy, I don't think the PIA of the slip is worth it. 

I can handle my S3 not being 1080p or having the latest interface, but I truly enjoy the 30 second skip and being able to fly through commercial breaks.


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## KyleLC (Feb 6, 2002)

Chris Gerhard said:


> Thanks, I did log into TiVo.com and I can get lifetime for 50% off with a new TiVo. That is tempting but obvious not nearly as good as transfering lifetime from a Series 1 that is of no use to me now like Kyle seems to be suggesting is possible.
> 
> Chris


You misunderstood my post. I was replying to shiftless's post (that I quoted) about being able to transfer lifetime to the Series 3 when it first came out. He said you could transfer lifetime from the Series 2 to the Series 3 and did not mention the Series 1, which they also allowed you to transfer from at that time. I was just telling him about that.

From what I have seen in the news so far, there will be no option to transfer lifetime from older TiVos to the Series 4, but of course TiVo can always change their minds.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> Since the one with a 320GB hard drive and lifetime will only be $500 each with the current $200 off lifetime.


I honestly don't find the "Lifetimer" discount to be that great. If you called Tivo directly, you could always get the equivalent of this deal--$200 off of lifetime for a new Tivo HD.

Last year as a Tivo subscriber, I had no difficulty getting a Tivo HD for $200 (that's $100 off of list price of $299) and Lifetime for $299 (that's $100 off of list price of $399). So without much difficulty--just a phone call---you could get $200 off a new Tivo HD with Lifetime. I had a friend who pulled the exact same deal for himself (that's where I got the idea. But you have to call).

So, with a Tivo Premiere, you get nothing off on the unit, but you get $200 off of Lifetime? Same deal, only you don't need to call to get it. Sorry, but big deal. Terrible upgrade pricing for such a marginal upgrade.

I will keep and cherish my Tivo HD with Lifetime for many years to come, and will make sure it keeps running forever. I put an internal 1TB WD DVR drive in it recently--awesome! But I won't be buying another Tivo.

I am already checking out Boxee Box for all of the things my Tivo and PS3 refuse to do (though technically could do).


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

csm10495 said:


> If TiVo said that S3 Users could trade in their TiVo and get a Premiere at an enticing discount AND let people transfer their lifetime subscription for like $100 I think they would get a lot more people to buy, including myself


What would Tivo's motivation for that be? As a lifetime subscriber Tivo already has my money. They're not getting the annuity from me that a monthly subscription would bring. If Tivo offered, this, what's the most they'd make out of me? Another couple hundred bucks? Probably not worth it from their perspective.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

I will "upgrade" only if I need to replace one of my TiVos (an S3 and an HDXL). Since both have lifetime subs, there's no real incentive for me to pay that much money, especially as I doubt there will be any particularly inexpensive way to transfer one of the lifetime subs.

Maybe - _maybe_ - if they added some additional functionality for the keyboard remote, like the ability to change a recording's title (especially useful for manual recordings where the guide said one thing but you actually were recording something else), I would consider it more. However, I will try to hold out for a 2-way device so I don't have to pay my cable company another $7/month just to watch its OnDemand shows on the same TV as my TiVo.

-- Don


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Corran Horn said:


> What would Tivo's motivation for that be? As a lifetime subscriber Tivo already has my money. They're not getting the annuity from me that a monthly subscription would bring. If Tivo offered, this, what's the most they'd make out of me? Another couple hundred bucks? Probably not worth it from their perspective.


In addition to the money, it would prove good to make sure everyone is happy so that consumers will continue buying their product instead of switching to another one (maybe one without any monthly fees or has 3 tuners)

Happy customers mean free positive advertisement to their friends (who may then become more subscribers)

they should do a better job at giving back to their loyal S3 fans because Generic DVR is catching up, i heard fios DVR was really good, and in that case no upfront costs

All In All : There are alternative DVR Services (cough) media center, moxi (cough)


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## rhoops (Jan 8, 2005)

My current, and only TiVo is a 2004 Series 2. I ordered a Series4 XL with Lifetime today. I was ready to order a Series 3 last month, but thanks to the hints on this forum, I dragged my feet.

I would like to have seen more features and capability. I wonder about the e-SATA capability. Will we be able to use off-the-shelf e-SATA drive, or will we have to by a "special" one?


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## Dr_Zoidberg (Jan 4, 2004)

If they had found a way to get Tru2Way cooperation from the cable companies, or at the very least, offered up something to replace the external SDV tuner AND had internal wireless (G or N), then I'd be pre-ordering one right now.

Seriously though, is there anyone out there who has had a flawless SDV tuner experience? It's a major irritant for me.


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> If they had found a way to get Tru2Way cooperation from the cable companies, or at the very least, offered up something to replace the external SDV tuner AND had internal wireless (G or N), then I'd be pre-ordering one right now.
> 
> Seriously though, is there anyone out there who has had a flawless SDV tuner experience? It's a major irritant for me.


don't think there is such a thing as flawless. LOL


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

As I stated in another thread:

TiVo, we have a problem, maybe!

I have been trying to get my head around this tech company's big deal announcement, but couldn&#8217;t quiet put my finger on what is going on until now.

TiVo is no longer a leading edge tech company and the economic rescission we are in is covering up for what otherwise would be obvious. 

Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but the CPU capacity existed for an HD IU at the introduction of the Series 3. The capacity should have been built into the Series 3 when it came not now in the Series 4. The Series 4 is using a duel core processor that just about covers the HD IU.

Why is TiVo not building its box to the edge of today&#8217;s high tech processors and technology? I believe that they have abandoned not so much their customers but their status as being cutting edge high tech for a Marketing plan that is more IBM than Apple. This is the uninspired, not turned on, disappointed hole they leave in everyone's gut when introduce their product. 

Instead letting the technology set the limit of their box, they are allowing their marketing people to artificially set tech limits that they can control by holding back some of the latest tech. They blame Hollywood and their content restriction which have nothing to with the tech that always leap frogs over what Hollywood is complaining about. They blame the consumer as not being able to afford the cutting edge stuff that should be in their boxes anyway by over charging for last years tech, keeping the TiVo faithful on their marketing meat hook. So you will see today&#8217;s latest tech in tomorrow&#8217;s Series 5 and it will again be disappointing but not enough for most to be knocked off the marketing hook. They disappoint because they are purposefully behind the tech curve in an outdated and old adoptive marketing model. 

My theory is that they are always going to disappoint because they are now more a marketing company than tech. However, this may be the beginning of the end for TiVo because the high tech gap they are willing to give up for a manipulative marketing strategy makes them extremely vulnerable for a smaller high tech company to take their dominance away.

Just a thought!


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Joe3 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CPU capacity existed for an HD IU at the introduction of the Series 3. The capacity should have been built into the Series 3 when it came not now in the Series 4. The Series 4 is using a duel core processor that just about covers the HD IU.


I don't know if it would be possible to build some HD interface on the S3 platform's CPU, but IIRC the Broadcom CPU/Mpeg decoder combo chip that is at the heart of the S3 boxes was the most powerful such Broadcom had avalible when the S3 platform was being designed.

(By the time the S3 _released_ Broadcom had just started producing, in very limited quantities, a newer faster chip. But if the S3 had be redesigned to use it and therefore had to wait until enough were avalible for manifacturing, it would probably have been 6-8 months delayed )

Now if TiVo had been willing to go with a much more expensive non-intengrated chipset then sure, there were plenty of computer CPUs avalible with the horsepower to run pretty much any UI you'd like.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

I'll probably replace my broken THD with an S4. That is, unless the new DirecTiVo comes out and makes me rethink my position. I'm getting a little tired of Cox. And TiVo, for that matter. Sadly, despite TiVo's asinine position on repairing lifetimed boxes, they've still got the best DVR out there. 

We don't have SDV here yet, so that's not really an issue as far as I'm concerned, especially at the rumored price point for the base model S4.

I'd be surprised if a couple of my friends don't pick up S4s also, now that they're upgrading to HD.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Jonathan_S said:


> I don't know if it would be possible to build some HD interface on the S3 platform's CPU


I assure you it would have been if they abandoned the idea of a flashy design. An interface is about presenting information and user choices, not animation and a ton of throbbing meaningless graphics. It could have been written for the S3.

But they chose not to "write" it, but author it in a high level tool whose runtime drinks processor cycles like Kool-aid. I am sure this was forced through development by clueless "suits" who wanted to see something Flashy, and the possibility of that flashy-ness being applied to advertising.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

Jonathan_S said:


> (By the time the S3 _released_ Broadcom had just started producing, in very limited quantities, a newer faster chip. But if the S3 had be redesigned to use it and therefore had to wait until enough were avalible for manifacturing, it would probably have been 6-8 months delayed )


That makes sense for S3 but what about the much later Tivo HD? They could have gone with a faster CPU, as faster CPUs were then plentiful, even if they weren't ready to release a new UI right away. That way Tivo HDs wouldn't be feeling burned right now--they could get the new UI along with the so-called "S4" boxes. And then they offer a more generous upgrade to the S3 people. (Just $200 off of the lifetime discount and no HW discount? If you already have lifetime, you have always gotten first $100 off. So it is just $100 more---and getting $100 off of the hardware as an existing customer was never hard. No difference.)

(Honestly, if they just went with a UI based on something other than Flash, you wouldn't need a new CPU. Flash is easy to develop with, but it isn't the most efficient solution. It wouldn't be..uh..quite as "flashy", but they could get quite close without the pokiness. So we need new HW because they found an easier development platform that is a little prettier?)


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## Dr_Zoidberg (Jan 4, 2004)

Grumock said:


> don't think there is such a thing as flawless. LOL


Of course not, but still, EVERY DAY RESETS? Often, within an hour after turning on my TV, I get a pair of resets by the SDV tuner. Is there anyone out there who can go a week without an issue with theirs? I've got the latest microcode on mine (using Cablvision service), and the resets interrupt all activity, including recording, not to mention resetting the playback time on anything I happen to be watching.


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> Of course not, but still, EVERY DAY RESETS? Often, within an hour after turning on my TV, I get a pair of resets by the SDV tuner. Is there anyone out there who can go a week without an issue with theirs? I've got the latest microcode on mine (using Cablvision service), and the resets interrupt all activity, including recording, not to mention resetting the playback time on anything I happen to be watching.


Mine goes weeks at a time without resets but I am on TWC. I have also ran all my own Cable to & in my house.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

jonja said:


> That makes sense for S3 but what about the much later Tivo HD? They could have gone with a faster CPU, as faster CPUs were then plentiful, even if they weren't ready to release a new UI right away. That way Tivo HDs wouldn't be feeling burned right now--they could get the new UI along with the so-called "S4" boxes. And then they offer a more generous upgrade to the S3 people. (Just $200 off of the lifetime discount and no HW discount? If you already have lifetime, you have always gotten first $100 off. So it is just $100 more---and getting $100 off of the hardware as an existing customer was never hard. No difference.)
> 
> (Honestly, if they just went with a UI based on something other than Flash, you wouldn't need a new CPU. Flash is easy to develop with, but it isn't the most efficient solution. It wouldn't be..uh..quite as "flashy", but they could get quite close without the pokiness. So we need new HW because they found an easier development platform that is a little prettier?)


TivoHD was released less than a year after the S3 meaning that it was probably already at proto hardware level when the S3 was released.
If you are trying to introduce a cost reduction model on the same platform that will use almost identical code base, it doesn't make much sense to use faster CPUs even if they were starting to become available when the TivoHD was being planned.

The advantage of Flash is the abundance of Flash developers.
This is important if TiVo wants the best chance at getting people to make AppsNStuff for their new UI.
I don't care for Flash for many reasons, but I can recognize that it is probably a very smart decision if they want to make their platform easy to develop for.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

solutionsetc said:


> And another disturbing thought I have about the choice of flash for the interface is its relative ease in inserting annoying animated content (can we all say advertising?). I have no interest in spending money on new hardware to supply TiVo more horsepower so that they can show me flash-based advertising content like practically every website on the planet.


Yep, I had this disturbing thought as well. I absolutely *hate* annoying flash ads!:down::down::down: If the Series 4 doesn't have the equivalent to Mozilla's FlashBlock app, it will be a gigantic step backwards from the Series 3.


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## doogledb (Mar 25, 2008)

Tivo's new business model is to utilize ads more and more. This is a result of needing to become profitable. The GUI in Series 4 is Flash which supports ads better. As everyone here has stated, there is not much functionality in this new box and hardly justifies releasing this new product. But, the new box is needed to support the new Flash GUI and enable ads better. Tivo will not make this new GUI available to legacy users because they are not powerful enough. (and you would not want them too) I noticed Premier is now the only Tivo you can buy now from Tivo. Us legacy users are the lucky ones. So, in reality, going to Series 4 is actually a downgrade and thus I am perfectly happy with my 2 TivoHD


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Corran Horn said:


> Cable Cards. That's seriously effecting my decision too. It was such a pain to get them working on my S3 in the first place with Comcast. I can't imagine it has gotten better/easier. I live in fear of them dropping off and having to call Comcast again. (knock on wood)


So what solution do you have besides cable cards & True2way? Both have issues!

You think that cable cards were hard to support and get working? Tru2Way wouldn't be any better. Sure it does more but wouldn't be any better.

Besides that... Cable co's are STILL fighting True2Way just as hard as they fought cable cards.

*The Fact is Cable Co's DO NOT WANT YOU using anyone elses "box" &/or "DVR" besides them. PERIOD!* The only reason you can is the government is FORCING them too.

Until we get better federal regulation in the matter and the government make them have an OPEN system like "Land line phone" service is. TiVo and any other DVR (Including HTPC's) will continue to have issues with the Cable Co's.

So TiVo not having better support for SDV, Cablecards, True2Way isn't really their fault. I am glad that they are NOT wasting millions of dollars trying to develope an otherwise dead technology.

Personally I am tired of everybody whining about the issues of cablecards, SDV, Tuning Adapters, & True2way. If you don't like it write your government. Stand up and start protesting, & do something about it besides whineing about it in forums.

Seriously, How many of you whiners have actually emailed your senators, congressmen, governors etc? I know I have many many times.

I will tell you what one Senator told me once when I was lucky enough to get a 15 min audience with them. You want to get something done & quickly? Get a letter writing campain going to them. Have them receive 5 to 10 thousands letters about an issue in a short period of time. THEN they might do something about it. 5 to 10 thousand letters over the course of a year or two? Notta... might influene them but won't do much. It's all about the numbers and to tell ya what. I know our Texas Senators are NOT getting enough email/mail on these issues.

If the Texas senators aren't, I wouldn't be to surpised that your senators probably aren't either.

TGC


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

KyleLC said:


> You misunderstood my post. I was replying to shiftless's post (that I quoted) about being able to transfer lifetime to the Series 3 when it first came out. He said you could transfer lifetime from the Series 2 to the Series 3 and did not mention the Series 1, which they also allowed you to transfer from at that time. I was just telling him about that.
> 
> From what I have seen in the news so far, there will be no option to transfer lifetime from older TiVos to the Series 4, but of course TiVo can always change their minds.


Yes, I did misunderstand. I am not really entitled to anything, I knew the lifetime was tied to the specific TiVo I purchased but that doesn't mean I wouldn't jump if a transfer was offered. Maybe someone is still using analog cable somewhere that would want the Series 1 and I can sell it.

I am not afraid of the ads that may be more prevalent with the TiVo Premiere, this is afterall a business and if anybody knows how TiVo can make a reasonable profit without running advertisements please let TiVo know. Now if I can just come up with $535 or whatever the total is with tax for the basic model with lifetime, I will buy one.

Chris


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## TWinbrook46636 (Feb 9, 2008)

The cable companies agreed with TiVo on a Tru2Way implementation where the TiVo would use the TiVo interface for everything (including built-in SDV support) *except* VOD where it would switch to the CableCo interface. TiVo seemed to be behind this compromise for a while but changed their minds and we got screwed. It would have been better than nothing and now we will have to wait several years for another solution.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

csm10495 said:


> Something that may be enticing in the future is 3D and it may be in the XL Premiere look at this picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read the fine print...what else are those glasses used for? Think Avia


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

Nope, I have a Series 3 (with a 1TB HD), a Tivo HD, and a Tivo HD XL. I don't need another one at this time. If in the future my old Series 3 fails I will replace it with a new model, but as long as my current ones are working I see no need to upgrade.


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## eaglestvo (Dec 27, 2008)

It looks like it will be a better fit in my cabinet.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

My Lifetime box is an S2 Humax. The LT offer for the S4 is tempting...


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> The cable companies agreed with TiVo on a Tru2Way implementation where the TiVo would use the TiVo interface for everything (including built-in SDV support) *except* VOD where it would switch to the CableCo interface. TiVo seemed to be behind this compromise for a while but changed their minds and we got screwed.


Where did you possibly get the idea that TiVo changed their mind? That's just so far out of touch with reality it isn't funny.

The cable companies all changed their mind. Last year, they all promised to have full, real tru2way out there in all major markets by last July. Instead, they all backed off from it. There is now no longer any general tru2way standard that the cable companies will deploy. Instead, every cable company seems to be doing their own, non-interoperable, kind-of-tru2way. What do you want TiVo to do?


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Personally I am tired of everybody whining about the issues of cablecards, SDV, Tuning Adapters, & True2way.


...except sometimes the problems *are* Tivo's fault. I am still waiting for Tivo to fix a software bug that causes SDV channels to macroblock/pixelate. Some of the SDV channels (available only through the Tuning Adapter) are just unwatchable. That this is a Tivo software bug is well documented.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=361244&page=48

Of course now that I own a "legacy" box I am not sure Tivo will do anything about it.


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## riffjim4069 (Oct 8, 2007)

I voted no. The MoxiHD is sounding like a better choice each day.


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

Guy1in10 said:


> Stupid me paid the $600 early adopter penalty


Don't feel stupid, I paid $700 for mine.

Far as getting the S4........ I would wait at least a year before even thinking about it. 
However, if Time Warner Torrance jacks me around when it's time for a tuning adapter. Screw them; I'm switching to AT&T U-Verse.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> The cable companies agreed with TiVo on a Tru2Way implementation where the TiVo would use the TiVo interface for everything (including built-in SDV support) *except* VOD where it would switch to the CableCo interface. TiVo seemed to be behind this compromise for a while but changed their minds and we got screwed. It would have been better than nothing and now we will have to wait several years for another solution.


I have made no secret I am unhappy with Tivo over not fixing the SDV bug and that the S4 is just so...lame. But I am totally in Tivo's camp on Tru2way. When I first heard about it, I was excited and dreamt of a S4 with it. That was before I heard VOD was not available through the Tivo interface. As far as I concerned, that decision makes the whole technology DOA.

The non-Tivo world of generic DVRs is riddled with craptastic user interfaces, and inconsistency is the hallmark of crap. Making VOD only available through a cableco interface kind of defeats the purpose. A Tivo is all about the user experience, and this compromise is just idiotic.

It is also so 1990s. Today, modern UIs are decoupled from the backend. This way you can change them independently and make the front end more usable without having to rewrite them both from scratch. Tru2way is obviously implemented with the obsolete model of having the data, the backend and the front end all intertwined. Just awful---almost all bad UIs do things this way (think SAP). Not sure what they were thinking, but they need to go back to the drawing board. Any one want Tru3way ;-)


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> So what solution do you have besides cable cards & True2way? Both have issues!
> TGC


Status quo...keep my S3 until it croaks.


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## Playloud (Jan 6, 2008)

Unless my Tivo HD dies, I won't upgrade. There just isn't enough of an upgrade to justify the cost.

Who knows, if my Tivo dies, I might decided to build a HTPC, though I doubt I will want to spend that much.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Nope. It doesn't do anything my S3 already does. In fact it does less.

No cablecard (not supported in Canada), and no laws enforcing clear QAM, so I'm stuck with analog cable. But it has a nice OLED telling me what it's recording and all that THX blah blah blah.

Heck, I'm building a TiVo PC unit to try to capture high-def using the cablebox...

If the series 4 had a high-def input for a cablebox, it could eliminate some issues with SDV and other crap happening in the US and other stuff. Plus avoid a trip with cablecard installers and crap...


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## pweent (Jan 31, 2003)

Eh. I went with "Undecided" because "Absolutely not" is a bit harsh, but I certainly see no compelling reason to upgrade from my Series 3 with 1 TB HD, and I do see compelling reasons not to - painful watching menus redraw in the Engadget preview video!

The Premiere platform may improve with updates, but the new UI looks slow and busy. I might someday get a Premiere when my S3 dies... assuming there's not a more attractive non-Tivo option. As a TiVo owner since summer 2000, that prospect makes me sad.


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## dbaps (Jul 25, 2007)

Not having 802.11N is unbelievable in this day and age. I can't believe it.


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## Topmounter (Apr 11, 2007)

I'd upgrade if my TivoHD died... otherwise? meh.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

dbaps said:


> Not having 802.11N is unbelievable in this day and age. I can't believe it.


Huh? TiVo wireless N adapter


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Huh? TiVo wireless N adapter


Maybe they mean integrated? The Tivo-branded N-adapter isn't really anything more than any other N-adapter, right?


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

only if they let me take my S3 lifetime to it


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Corran Horn said:


> Maybe they mean integrated? The Tivo-branded N-adapter isn't really anything more than any other N-adapter, right?


That's fine if that's what they meant. I mentioned in another thread that I would never use a wireless device with my TiVo DVRs (or much of anything else), and therefore am grateful that I'm not paying for hardware that I'd never use. The same argument could be used in other components, such as optical digital out hardware if a user was satisfied listening to 2 channel audio output.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

The poll could have used an option:

Not now, the Premiere doesn't do anything new that I need.

It's just NOT compelling enough to justify spending the money to replace our current units. They already do everything we need. The only things that would push us to consider a new one would be a MUCH BETTER STREAMING CLIENT or coordinated programming across multiple units. No signs of that, so no sale.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

I have been looking for a reason to upgrade the old Dual Tuner S2, and now found it. 

I'll be upgrading eventually, probably this year after I get settled into my new place. Not a bad price for it, either.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

twhiting9275 said:


> I have been looking for a reason to upgrade the old Dual Tuner S2, and now found it.
> 
> I'll be upgrading eventually, probably this year after I get settled into my new place. Not a bad price for it, either.


You are exactly the right kind of person for this new system. The hardware is better and the UI is HD; my year old Tivo HD had already dated hardware on the day I bought it, but I had no choice at that time. So if I were upgrading from my (soon to go dark) DT S2 today, I'd be happy with a S4.

For those us on the S3/HD platform already, however, this is a steep upgrade price for "features" we thought we'd get for free (an enhanced UI). And no other popularly requested features included either that would tempt any S3 customer to upgrade.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

jonja said:


> You are exactly the right kind of person for this new system. The hardware is better and the UI is HD; my year old Tivo HD had already dated hardware on the day I bought it, but I had no choice at that time. So if I were upgrading from my (soon to go dark) DT S2 today, I'd be happy with a S4.
> 
> For those us on the S3/HD platform already, however, this is a steep upgrade price for "features" we thought we'd get for free (an enhanced UI). And no other popularly requested features included either that would tempt any S3 customer to upgrade.


Very much agreed. With an S3 running nicely with external storage the updated feature list for the S4 isn't enough for me for the $500 charge it'd cost for the hardware+LSP.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

I actually have two, an S2, and an HD.
Neither unit has given me any issue, and honestly, you can't say the HD doesn't give you 'HD capability', because it does.

You want more features in the HD? You've GOT them. Seriously, how much more complaining can you do over minor stuff.

The s2 doesn't have netflix, doesn't have youtube, doesn't have HD recording, or cablecard capability. This is a HUGE upgrade in features. Of course, there's more.

Were we promised a new UI? Every look I've seen at the HD has shown nothing of the kind, so you must have read something from some (un)official source that made you think you'd get one.

So, Tivo goes out and puts out a new unit that is an upgrade with a better looking UI, and users get their underwear all up in knots because THEY can't have the pretty UI. Come on people, stop crying about small things like this.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

twhiting9275 said:


> Were we promised a new UI? Every look I've seen at the HD has shown nothing of the kind, so you must have read something from some (un)official source that made you think you'd get one.
> 
> So, Tivo goes out and puts out a new unit that is an upgrade with a better looking UI, and users get their underwear all up in knots because THEY can't have the pretty UI. Come on people, stop crying about small things like this.


Don't get *your *knickers in knots. That is not what most people are saying. No one is crying. What we are saying is "Really? That's it?" I've been excited about this announcement for a month, but saw nothing that will cause me to open my pocketbook. I am not even tempted.

I think many of us are simply disappointed at the lack of innovation represented by the S4. I WANT Tivo to be successful; I am rooting for them in the patent disputes---they aren't patent trolls because they make real products. With a whole new hardware series, all you get with the "Premiere" is Flash-based interface? Let's face it; the hype backfired. At least when Apple hypes, they almost always deliver.

For new Tivo customers, this is a solid refresh (read the posts right above yours, geez). New glitzly UI, better HW. My Tivo is barely a year old but with tech that was old when I bought it. Wish they had been refreshing the HW all along, but that's Tivo for you.

Also the entire installed base of S3 users are now probably thinking, "so now that I am legacy, does that mean Tivo isn't going to give us ANY new features?" I would like for the classic UI to be true 16:9 HD; the current hardware is more than enough for that -- as long as they avoid Flash. And I don't care at all for the Ad bar (sorry, Discovery bar); I am fine if they tweak the classic UI. Frankly, I am embarrassed for Tivo that the S3 wasn't released with a HD interface (make a UI interface that isn't stretched. New HD icons). Now I guess we'll never see it. And I worry they won't fix my SDV macroblocking bug now.

I don't hear any "crying"; I hear Tivo fans disappointed that Tivo has not released a compelling new product for them. That isn't good. And well, they didn't. But some S2 users might be glad they waited, or new users on the fence.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

jonja said:


> .


+1

I wanted to WANT to buy the new Tivo system day one. I'm not complaining about new UI update for HD's and S3's, though we should've always had an HD interface since it's right there in the name. But I wanted revolutionary changes, which their comments seemed to promise - yet they've invented nothing new. My HD can do everything the Premiere can. It already has "all the stuff in the same place" - them acting like it's a new thing is pretty low. :down:


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## mczolton (Aug 6, 2003)

jonja said:


> Don't get *your *knickers in knots. That is not what most people are saying. No one is crying. What we are saying is "Really? That's it?" I've been excited about this announcement for a month, but saw nothing that will cause me to open my pocketbook. I am not even tempted.
> 
> I think many of us are simply disappointed at the lack of innovation represented by the S4. I WANT Tivo to be successful; I am rooting for them in the patent disputes---they aren't patent trolls because they make real products. With a whole new hardware series, all you get with the "Premiere" is Flash-based interface? Let's face it; the hype backfired. At least when Apple hypes, they almost always deliver.


+1

I agree. I don't mind spending the additional cash on a new device. Nor do I mind that my Tivo HD isn't going to receive the UI upgrade. What bothers me is the near total lack of innovation. I love Tivo. I've been a Tivo advocate for many, many years. Now, I'm not so sure.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

The big money news is TiVo won its lawsuit. This made investors jump in today not this "thing" they announced they were selling yesterday.

I hope I am sooo wrong, but as TiVo starts to profit by monopolizing they will kill their economic motivation to high tech innovation. This disappointing box may be its result of a change in strategy away from the consumer and the latest technical innovations. The arguments I've heard for Flash are pretty weak. I will have to see if Flash is brought in for the advertiser or third party innovators before I think of continuing with TiVo


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

I'm an "undecided" who just decided and ordered a XL. Little things tipped me over, such as keeping track of recordings by user, the RF remote, the faster processors, and the QWERTY keyboard and power savings (I pay $0.40+ per KWH which means power costs me at least $12/month/current TiVo). By getting rid of a lifetimed S2 and it's Comcast STB, digital access fee and power requirements, alone with replacing a month-month HD plus expander with the XL on lifetime, I figure I'll be breaking even in about 17 months along with having some fun exploring the new features. And it'll free up the S2 (a 57H DVD burner) and HD to give to my kids. I'll have one less tuner but since I've also got a S3 on my main TV, four tuners should be enough. Recording space is about a push, but I can add an expander in the future if needed; waiting to add the expander appeals to me for reliability reasons--I may never do it.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

dbaps said:


> Not having 802.11N is unbelievable in this day and age. I can't believe it.


I think a pretty good percentage of people are using ethernet cables and might resent being forced to buy a TiVo with built in Wi-Fi. Including it with the more expensive model is probably a good idea but for every TiVo, I say it isn't a good idea.

Chris


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Isn't a wireless N dongle coming out soon?

Wil it be 5Ghz capable?


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Interstingly enough. As I have read through the thread as to why some are or aren't getting or considering the upgade to the new S4 units that most of the objections IMHO aren't really the fault of TiVo.

Examples... afew said Tuning Adapters. Thats not the fault of TiVo. You can blame the need on TA's because of your cable company. Even the Moxi has issues with SDV and needs a TA. HTPC's? The same thing. They still need a Tuning adapter as well.
Is their really anything out there that works without a TA other than the Cable companies own box?

A few said MRV issues. True maybe streaming is the answer and their are several alternativs that currently implement the streaming solution for MRV. However, honestly. Give it time & cable companies will have THIS alternative shut down as well. Unless you use THEIR cable company provided equipment. Example here.. Yeah Verizon Fios you can do limited MRV. IF you use their equipment. Dish - Limited MRV with their equipment. Same goes with DirecTV. I just happen to know even the cable companies are going to be soon trying to shut down MRV streaming unless it's on their own boxes, or at least they are going to try too.

Noticed a few on S2's... that don't have digital cable yet. Enjoy while you have them. When your cable company DROPS analog service and goes entirely Digital. Your S2 will no longer work on their system. Most all cable companies will be dropping analog cable by 2012. IF they haven't allready done so.

I am just surprised at many of your expections. Most IMHO are in the clouds! Seriously. Now I will admit they could have done more, & done better. But geez some of ther easons I am reading here as to why you wouldn't upgrade IMHO is a little lame.

I have a S3 unit and a HD unit. I will only be upgadeing one unit. Only because I love the fact the NEW S4 can make use of a BLUETOOTH remote. For the average person who allready has a S3/HD/HDXL I dont' see any big reason why you should upgrade.

If you have an S1 or S2 though. Your going to need to upgrade soon, or find another alternative soon. At least in the next 2 to 3 years.

In the end... all I can say is WOW... HARSH!

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

jonja said:


> This was such a no brainer I can only conclude that Tivo is run by the same clueless MBAs as most other companies today. Overpaid execs whose brain mass seems almost entirely optimized for shoving money into their wallets..


Excuse me? Whats this have to do with TiVo and Tuning Adapters? It isn't TiVo that wants the Tuning Adapter. Its the friggin Cable Companies. Don't complain to TiVo about Tuning Adapters. Complain to your cable co for going SDV.



jonja said:


> Though an arrogant a-hole at times, the only exec I can think of that truly deserves to be filthy rich is Steve Jobs, if only because he gets it. Guess what: He isn't a MBA---he earned his position by founding the company he runs.
> 
> Maybe because he isn't an MBA is why he screwed up the so called iPAD. The biggest piece of S**T to come out of apple! Hell they even named it something gross after what women use monthly! Geez! No USB, No flash, No camera support, No SD card reader, Limited memeory (Helly iPod has more memory than that thing!) Steve pulled adult content from the apple store, then pulled all the books from the book store from the publisher who published his UN-AUTHORIZED biography that didn't put him in very good light. You need to go read that book. Steve Jobs is the biggest jerk in the buisness!
> 
> ...


Geez what a crazy rant. Grow up...* Business is all about the bottom line and making money. Period.* It isn't about anything more. Haven't you figured that out yet?

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

box464 said:


> Also, the Tuning Adapter: It's a pain. Is it TiVo's fault? No.
> 
> The cable companies have been forced to adhere to laws that require them to allow CableCards and Tuning Adapters. Allowing their customers to use equipment they don't control offers them little money (other than the monthly CableCard/Tuning Adapter fees) and extra training costs for their technicians. They aren't going to make it easy for anyone else to come in and hook up to their content.


Boy I couldn't have said it better myself. What you say is exactly true. Just wish many many of the other TiVo users would understand this too.

If I was a cable co. I wouldn't want to do anything that would loose me money. So if you had a TiVo, I would find other ways to extract money from you. I would try to make it hard process so that you might be tempted to go with our equipment instead of a TiVo.

In many areas of the country, choosing Verizon Fios isn't an option. Like in my area. Either I get TWC or I get NOTHING. I have huge trees in my yard. I CAN'T install DirecTV because the Trees are in the way. Would I cut a tree down for DirecTV. Hell no. I love my trees. I am just lucky enough that I DON'T need a Tuning adapter.

However.... Since I am on TWC. They have copy protected everything but analogs and Locals. TWC will be dropping analog service soon in our area to make room for more HD channels. Could TiVo do something about it? Maybe. But it would only work for a short time before the cable co's shut down streaming capabilites too.

There isn't anything TIVO can do about the MRV, Clear QAM or Tuning Adapter/SDV issue. They are fighting a loosing battle.

The people we all should be complaining too is our Congress, Senators and the FCC.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Dr_Zoidberg said:


> Seriously though, is there anyone out there who has had a flawless SDV tuner experience? It's a major irritant for me.


You do realize that the cable companies require control of the Tuning adpaters just like the cable cards. Therefore TiVo can't build one in.

SDV & Tuning adapters like I & many others have said before isn't the fault of TiVo, but the fault of Cable companies.

How many cable companies are supporting True2way yet either? Who could really make use of a TRue2way TiVo even if TiVo did make one. TWC in Texas isn't using True2way yet. Even though Austin/San Antonio have gone SDV.

TGC


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

jonja said:


> ...except sometimes the problems *are* Tivo's fault. I am still waiting for Tivo to fix a software bug that causes SDV channels to macroblock/pixelate. Some of the SDV channels (available only through the Tuning Adapter) are just unwatchable. That this is a Tivo software bug is well documented.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=361244&page=48
> 
> Of course now that I own a "legacy" box I am not sure Tivo will do anything about it.


Hmmm but would you have those problems if SDV weren't implemented in the first place? No... therefore TiVo wouldn't have to make software changes or have issues trying to make a Tuning Adapter work with their system at all.

You take away SDV and we solve your problem as well. I have seen and heard HTPC's that are having issues making Tuning Adapters work well with them as well. So again it's not all TiVo's fault. TiVo is doing the best they can at making SDV work with a TiVo at all. Be glad they are at least trying.

TGC


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I am just surprised at many of your expections. Most IMHO are in the clouds! Seriously.


In the clouds, eh?. What were your expectations? If you had none, I'm sure they were pretty well satisfied. As for mine, I wanted to see an interface that didn't require all the stepping back and forth from lists to detail screens in order to get important information like original air date and episode number. It appears the new interface still does not address these usability issues. A lot of wasted space and needless graphic placements still require the user to needlessly toggle back and forth through multiple screens to discern the episode they wish to watch.

And we still don't have cooperative scheduling. The damn things are networked so why is it so tough to schedule a recording on another box when there is a conflict. And of course the MRV issue with CCI bytes will have to be addressed as it is already broken for a large number of users. When is TiVo gonna get around to that?

Sorry if you think this is harsh but it is just mind-boggling that this stuff isn't in the series 3 considering TiVo has had years to implement it. Ok, so they have long since dropped development on the existing boxes in favor of this new platform, and now we have a new box that TiVo declares is the "second coming"; the fact that this stuff is still omitted is dumbfounding.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

riffjim4069 said:


> I voted no. The MoxiHD is sounding like a better choice each day.


Just curious as to why you thing the MoxiHD is better? I too had thought about it as well.

Please don't use reasons like MRV, Clear QAM, or SDV. As I personally believe IMHO that cable co's will soon shut down MRV streaming with the newly proposed changes to the Copy Protection flags. Clear QAM in my cable market is *NON-Existant* except for locals, & SDV isn't used in market as well.

So those reasons aside... What can the MoxiHD do that the TiVo can't?

TGC


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## cogx (Sep 23, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I think a pretty good percentage of people are using ethernet cables and might resent being forced to buy a TiVo with built in Wi-Fi. Including it with the more expensive model is probably a good idea but for every TiVo, I say it isn't a good idea.


I'm surely not alone (actually I know I'm not, because I have two friends doing this as well) by having a small network switch next to my AV equipment and gaming systems which runs into a powerline ethernet adapter where the companion adapter is of course next to my router and cable modem. With IEEE P1901 products being announced, I'll probably "upgrade" to one of them later this year, even though I have zero problems with my now fairly old Actiontek 200 Mbps powerline adapters.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Corran Horn said:


> Maybe they mean integrated? The Tivo-branded N-adapter isn't really anything more than any other N-adapter, right?


I am glad it isn't integrated. I wouldn't use it anyways. I hate paying for a feature I don't / won't use.

I am however glad that it IS still an option for those who DO want it.

TGC


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TexasGrillChef said:


> What can the MoxiHD do that the TiVo can't?


Streaming isn't copying. It is just routing playback to another device over the net. No different than an HDMI to cat6 to HDMI balun setup. And since moximates can control moxies, for live or recorded shows, no additional outlet fees and cable card rentals per TV. And of course no additional TiVo fees for simply watching a show upstairs that was recorded downstairs.

Moxi also supports standardized DLNA servers. No flaky TiVo desktop software.

It really is a much cleaner and modern day setup.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Just curious as to why you thing the MoxiHD is better? I too had thought about it as well.
> 
> Please don't use reasons like MRV, Clear QAM, or SDV. As I personally believe IMHO that cable co's will soon shut down MRV streaming with the newly proposed changes to the Copy Protection flags. Clear QAM in my cable market is *NON-Existant* except for locals, & SDV isn't used in market as well.
> 
> ...


Moxi uses DTCP/IP to stream live and recorded TV to the Moxi Mate is not subject to the CC1 limitation of Tivo. SO MOXI clearly has a HUGE advantage in the multi room bundle. NO MRV limitations.

Moxi has real time instant online scheduling. You can even delete shows from online.

Moxi has clear QAM mappings without the need for a cable card.

Moxi has easy to install eSATA expansion drives. 1.5tb upgrade cost me $100

Moxi has 3 tuners.

Moxi uses DLNA... and has Hulu via Playon


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> In the clouds, eh?. What were your expectations? If you had none, I'm sure they were pretty well satisfied. As for mine, I wanted to see an interface that didn't require all the stepping back and forth from lists to detail screens in order to get important information like original air date and episode number. It appears the new interface still does not address these usability issues. A lot of wasted space and needless graphic placements still require the user to needlessly toggle back and forth through multiple screens to discern the episode they wish to watch.


I didn't say ALL the expectations were in the clouds. Notice in all my previous posts to this one. I never much mentioned anything about hte UI. I am disapointed in the UI. I was hoping for something a little bit better. I don't think those expectations or others expectations of a better UI are or were in the "Clouds". So personally I agree with almost everyone. The UI has alot to be desired. For even more reasons than you have eluded too.



solutionsetc said:


> And we still don't have cooperative scheduling. The damn things are networked so why is it so tough to schedule a recording on another box when there is a conflict. And of course the MRV issue with CCI bytes will have to be addressed as it is already broken for a large number of users. When is TiVo gonna get around to that?


I don't think they will, and if they did. It will change as well. Cable companies are allready working on a plan to CHANGE the "Copy Protection" flag scheme. By either changing the meanings of the flags, or adding additional ones. To PREVENT/BLOCK MRV streaming. So that so called MRV streaming that everyone is doing on other NON-Cable provided equipment will soon stop as well. It might work today, but for how long?

You wanna FIX the Copy Protection CCI Bytes Flag system? Why not start a campain or at least support a letter writing campain to your congressmen, Senators and FCC? IF enough of us consumers DON'T like the copy protection flag system why are we putting up with it? ELECTIONS ARE this year aren't they? Lets make it a campain issue! Oh I forgot... Most people who are complaining about copy protection flags are "Arm Chair Whiners" They won't do anything about it but whine. LOL

Cooperative Scheduling would be so nice. I wasn't surprised to not see it on the new TiVo's yet though. Scheduling from their web site is still a real royal PIA. They don't have a dedicated iPhone app for scheduling like DirecTV and AT&T uverse has. There is much needed improvement there as well. They need to do those improvements even before cooperative scheduling is done. I do know this Cooperative Scheduling isn't that easy to do. It would require all sorts of background user settings as well. What can be recorderd and where & by who. I just see a big mess!



solutionsetc said:


> Sorry if you think this is harsh but it is just mind-boggling that this stuff isn't in the series 3 considering TiVo has had years to implement it. Ok, so they have long since dropped development on the existing boxes in favor of this new platform, and now we have a new box that TiVo declares is the "second coming"; the fact that this stuff is still omitted is dumbfounding.


I am a little ticked that they hyped it up so big. I don't know what I was expecting. But honestly I was expecting something more than what was anounced that is for sure!

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> Streaming isn't copying. It is just routing playback to another device over the net. No different than an HDMI to cat6 to HDMI balun setup. And since moximates can control moxies, for live or recorded shows, no additional outlet fees and cable card rentals per TV. And of course no additional TiVo fees for simply watching a show upstairs that was recorded downstairs.
> 
> Moxi also supports standardized DLNA servers. No flaky TiVo desktop software.
> 
> It really is a much cleaner and modern day setup.


Yes.. but the reason I left out MRV streaming. Is that I know cable companies are looking to change the Copy Protection Flag system CCI byte. So that it CAN block STREAMING as well as COPYING. Thus a show COULD even be PREVENTED from streaming. So it works today. It might not work tomorrow though. You can't garuntee or promise that Streaming of copy protected work will NEVER be prevented. Or that The Copy Protection flags won't ever be updated. Therefore.. STREAMING IS NOT THE ANSWER!

So again streaming aside...

The only thing you said that IS better than the TiVo... which is ONE feature I would love to see the TiVo add is DLNA support. That would make the TiVo much better. Therefore in that ONE aspect. The Moxi is better than the TiVo. Just wish TiVo had DLNA support.

TGC


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh yeah&#8230; forgot you can use any eSata drive instead of TiVo's pathetic proprietary striped offering&#8230; and up to 6 terabytes IIRC.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

solutionsetc said:


> Oh yeah forgot you can use any eSata drive instead of TiVo's pathetic proprietary striped offering and up to 6 terabytes IIRC.


Right, Moxi allows you to disconnect your eSATA and not screw up what you have on the main harddrive.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

fatlard said:


> Moxi uses DTCP/IP to stream live and recorded TV to the Moxi Mate is not subject to the CC1 limitation of Tivo. SO MOXI clearly has a HUGE advantage in the multi room bundle. NO MRV limitations.


*CURRENTLY... *it has no CCI limitation. Keep in mind that cable companies are looking to make changes to the CCI byte. To add an additional flag to PREVENT streaming of some content. This isn't in effect today. It might not ever get implemented either. But you* CAN'T* promise me, nor garuntee that it *WON'T *ever happen.

So while you say the Moxi can TODAY.... You *CAN'T* garuntee it will tommorow.

Think about this... At one time with the TiVo's you could MRV everything. Obviously NOW you can't. So things changed for the worse. Why? Becaue CCI bytes were so "Invtented" and implemented. Thus one could in fact make changes to that. Further limiting our access to content.



fatlard said:


> Moxi has real time instant online scheduling. You can even delete shows from online.
> 
> Now I like that. I can't stand TiVo's current online scheduling system. They don't even have a iPhone app. At least DirecTV and AT&T uverse do. Which is quite nice.
> 
> ...


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I know cable companies are looking to change the Copy Protection Flag system CCI byte. So that it CAN block STREAMING as well as COPYING.


We'll have to agree to disagree here. There is nothing a broadcaster can do to prevent ip streaming without having it hardware bound. TiVo chose to respect the CCI byte in hardware for CableLabs certification.

When it comes down to having a new hardware interface that would require that hardware binding, ALL of our gear will be obsolete anyway so the point is moot. Plus the FCC is already on record as wanting to prevent this kind of thing.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

TexasGrillChef said:


> *CURRENTLY... *it has no CCI limitation. Keep in mind that cable companies are looking to make changes to the CCI byte. To add an additional flag to PREVENT streaming of some content. This isn't in effect today. It might not ever get implemented either. But you* CAN'T* promise me, nor garuntee that it *WON'T *ever happen.
> 
> So while you say the Moxi can TODAY.... You *CAN'T* garuntee it will tommorow.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ. Moxi uses DTCP/IP which has been cable labs approved!
http://www.dtcp.com/

What Tivo does is not instant live streaming and the actually copy over shows... hence affected by CC1

Moxi Mates is an extender that uses approved streaming DTCP/IP... does even have a hard drive.

CC1 has no bearing on Moxi.

You know you want to... go ahead and place the order for the Moxi 3 room bundle


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I think a pretty good percentage of people are using ethernet cables and might resent being forced to buy a TiVo with built in Wi-Fi. Including it with the more expensive model is probably a good idea but for every TiVo, I say it isn't a good idea.


Who said anything about being 'forced' to use one?
Sony got this one completely right with the PS3. No needed 'addons' for wireless (or wired). If you have wireless, it will connect, if you don't, plug in the old cables and you're good to go there. Best of both worlds. No additional charge either!



aaronwt said:


> Isn't a wireless N dongle coming out soon?


According to Tivo, yes


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

TGC,

Think about it&#8230; for the price of three TiVo lifetime subs (including MSD, and not including the additional price of their hardware) you can buy the 3 room moxi setup. MRV will work. DLNA will be available. No ads, longer buffer, 6.5 terabytes of storage, no additional fees from your cable co for cable cards and additional outlets, a better interface, no additional service fees/issues if hardware breaks down, complete control of all moxi devices from any other one on your network, online scheduling that is not a crap shoot.

It is starting to seem like a no-brainer to me, especially considering what TiVo has accomplished in the last several years.


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## theoryzero (Jan 7, 2010)

My teeny-tiny nit against Moxi is the inability to tune OTA channels. The reason for me to buy a DVR is because I'm dropping cable and using solely my OTA antenna. I'm beginning to think my options are TiVo or HTPC.

From Moxi's FAQ:


> # 22. Can I record HD signals "Over The Air?"
> No, Moxi is meant to work with cable access and will not be able to record digital programming over the air or through an antenna  even with the digital converter box.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

theoryzero said:


> My teeny-tiny nit against Moxi is the inability to tune OTA channels.


Absolutely. But for those (like me), where OTA is not an option (60 miles from the nearest tower - with lots of trees and mountains), the moxi is becoming a pretty compelling option.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> *CURRENTLY... *it has no CCI limitation. Keep in mind that cable companies are looking to make changes to the CCI byte. To add an additional flag to PREVENT streaming of some content. This isn't in effect today. It might not ever get implemented either. But you* CAN'T* promise me, nor garuntee that it *WON'T *ever happen.
> 
> So while you say the Moxi can TODAY.... You *CAN'T* garuntee it will tommorow.
> 
> <lots more of the same>


One of my favorite tech blogs is Zatznotfunny.com. Dave Zatz has talked in the past a lot about the whole CCI byte issue, and how it is Tivo's implementation (and interpretation of what it should mean) that is the biggest problem. There are different tiers of the byte, and Tivo treats anything above a zero value as DO NOT COPY, even the CCI byte that is defined as "Copy once". That's Tivo's choice, a point Dave has made repeatedly. From what I am reading , Moxi interprets the byte a little differently and users have a lot more freedom for using MRV.

You do realize that that byte does nothing by itself? It is up to the DVR OS to decide what to do with it. Moxi's lawyers said one thing, Tivo's lawyers took a very conservative, zero lawsuit path that essentially decimates the value of one of their own features. When decisions like that are made, you get the feeling Tivo cares more about the Cablecos than its consumers.

(Can you turn down the unconditional love just a little, and the *EMPHASIS*? We all love Tivo, but it is just a product by a company, and as consumers, we want the best value for our buck. Weak new products aren't good business. That is what the disappointment is about. OK?)


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

twhiting9275 said:


> Who said anything about being 'forced' to use one?
> Sony got this one completely right with the PS3. No needed 'addons' for wireless (or wired). If you have wireless, it will connect, if you don't, plug in the old cables and you're good to go there. Best of both worlds. No additional charge either!


You are absolutely right--this is how my PS3 is designed. Ethernet and Wifi are very cheap, and it is always best to have both. I use Ethernet for stationary devices -- lower latency -- and Wifi for mobile. But I had the freedom to run lots of ethernet cables through walls and for many, Wifi is the only choice. These Wifi dongles (think XBox 360) are absurb ripoffs.

It wouldn't surprise me if you couldn't use a third-party Wifi dongle either, like the WD eSATA drives. Use DRM to prevent third party devices and therefore eliminate the competition which would otherwise bring down prices.

Only problem with building both in is that that is very unlike Tivo, especially when they can charge $90 for a Wifi dongle. And there will be plenty of apologists out there to defend them, for free. I don't ever expect for it to happen.

New question: Does the S4 finally have gigabit ethernet? This technology has been out for what, maybe 8-10 years...is the new CPU "beefy" enough to use it? (My 10 year old computers could).


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Hmmm but would you have those problems if SDV weren't implemented in the first place? No... therefore TiVo wouldn't have to make software changes or have issues trying to make a Tuning Adapter work with their system at all.
> 
> You take away SDV and we solve your problem as well.


It's not SDV that's the problem. Actually, I think SDV is a very smart technical solution to a real technical limitation: Bandwidth. Granted fiber is even better, but I think SDV is a pretty damn clever workaround. Making it work right is all about the implementation.

The need for a Tuning Adapter was also a clever tactical fix. Normally you expect such hacks to be fixed in the next major upgrade to the reference platform, as SDV becomes the norm in an HD world. (Yes, I know, Tivo and the cablecos can't get along for standards...) That is a reasonable expectation for a supposedly major update to the platform; the reasons for the lack means jack to the customers. For the added mess and complexity of a Tuning Adapter, I wouldn't recommend Tivo to anyone in my family right now. I am very technical and can live with it, especially since I love the Tivo platform and have used it for years, but no one else in my family would want to put up with it (worse, they'd call me to fix it).

The SDV macroblocking/pixelation problem is solely due to a Tivo software bug. And since I've been having this from the very first day I got SDV -- last June--- and others have had it longer, I don't see ANY evidence Tivo is "trying". Do you have some evidence they are doing something?


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

twhiting9275 said:


> Who said anything about being 'forced' to use one?


I think the point is that if you include wireless then it increases the cost/price by some amount. For some (a lot?) of people, they don't want the wireless and don't care to pay an extra, say, $25 for that capability.


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

twhiting9275 said:


> Who said anything about being 'forced' to use one?
> Sony got this one completely right with the PS3. No needed 'addons' for wireless (or wired). If you have wireless, it will connect, if you don't, plug in the old cables and you're good to go there. Best of both worlds. No additional charge either!


Could not agree more, why does it seem that the "anti wifi" guys don't want to pay for "features" they don't use? Hell, I've been paying for phone jack on my Tivo for years.

An internal wifi/bluetooth chip would not change the cost of the Tivo very much. But would potentially cost them revenue on added sales. I do have my main Tivo near my router, but the other 2 are wifi and gues what I paid $50 bones for both. It just seems lame to pay $300-500 for a premium DVR experience, then have add USB devices to get other features.....


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

travisc77 said:


> An internal wifi/bluetooth chip would not change the cost of the Tivo very much. But would potentially cost them revenue on added sales.


I think this is a pretty accurate assessment. TiVo saved a couple of bucks on a chip so they can sell you add ons.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> I think this is a pretty accurate assessment. TiVo saved a couple of bucks on a chip so they can sell you add ons.


Baloney! What evidence do you have?

The TiVo store doesn't make a profit and is not designed to make a profit (according to many statements of TiVo). The sale volumes are tiny compared to normal retail sales. Any effect is completely negligible.

TiVo makes its money on TiVo service, not hardware. And to get a service contract, they have to sell you a box. Anything that raises the price of a box has to be carefully calibrated - will it gain TiVo more sales than it loses.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> Baloney! What evidence do you have?


Love those that simply question the obvious asking for "evidence".

Call Broadcom and ask them how much to buy the BCM4329 in quantity. Maybe 5 bucks or even less. Now subtract the production costs of bluetooth and USB connectors, wiring, interface, etc not to mention a simpler, more reliable unit (which also lowers costs).

So in your mind they decided against this route to design and manufacture two different add on dongle units, cables, and packaging to break even on their sales of these items?


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> Baloney! What evidence do you have?
> 
> The TiVo store doesn't make a profit and is not designed to make a profit (according to many statements of TiVo). The sale volumes are tiny compared to normal retail sales. Any effect is completely negligible.
> 
> TiVo makes its money on TiVo service, not hardware. And to get a service contract, they have to sell you a box. Anything that raises the price of a box has to be carefully calibrated - will it gain TiVo more sales than it loses.


Tivo provides a phone jack & ethernet, why not wireless built-in? It's cheap way to add a selling point. Just about everything has wifi, clearly a way for Tivo to make money off the sales of the USB wifi adapter. Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Microsoft does the exact same thing, albeit an even worse money grab for the Xbox 360.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> Love those that simply question the obvious asking for "evidence".
> 
> Call Broadcom and ask them how much to buy the BCM4329 in quantity. Maybe 5 bucks or even less. Now subtract the production costs of bluetooth and USB connectors, wiring, interface, etc not to mention a simpler, more reliable unit (which also lowers costs).
> 
> So in your mind they decided against this route to design and manufacture two different add on dongle units, cables, and packaging to break even on their sales of these items?


Your claim was that the reason TiVo didn't include wireless was to make money selling it as an add-on. I objected to that, and given two chances you still haven't produced any evidence for that claim, one that contradicts what TiVo has said in the past. I repeat: what is your evidence that is strong enough so that you are calling TiVo a liar?


----------



## thomb (Jan 22, 2008)

I have 2 lifetime HD units. The new box with an shiny HD interface barely registers on the radar for me. It falls in the "nice to have" category, but it's not something that I'll be crying for. I'm one who spends my time watching shows and not staring at a menu. The current menus work great for my needs. 

Having said that, I sure wish the new boxes had more new features to offer. Very disappointing. At this rate of innovation, I may consider upgrading when the Series 279 is released.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> Your claim was that the reason TiVo didn't include wireless was to make money selling it as an add-on. I objected to that, and given two chances you still haven't produced any evidence for that claim, one that contradicts what TiVo has said in the past. I repeat: what is your evidence that is strong enough so that you are calling TiVo a liar?


I thought the 'evidence' in my last post was pretty clear. While it is common knowledge TiVo subsidizes the main box with service, there is no evidence of this with accessories (including the wireless adaptor, glo remote, plush doll, t-shirts, back paks, towels, and any other crap they are peddling).

Trust me&#8230; I know what it costs to manufacture and distribute a 802.11G wireless USB adaptor, and at sixty bucks they are making substantial profit. Other companies are selling them for far less and still making a profit.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

travisc77 said:


> Tivo provides a phone jack & ethernet, why not wireless built-in? It's cheap way to add a selling point. Just about everything has wifi, clearly a way for Tivo to make money off the sales of the USB wifi adapter. Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
> 
> Microsoft does the exact same thing, albeit an even worse money grab for the Xbox 360.


Actually, the premiere doesn't have a phone jack either. TiVo knows that 85% of their users are broadband connected. There's no reason 85% of their users should pay for a telephone modem they'll never use.

Likewise, there's no reason wired users should pay for wireless functionality so that wireless users don't have to add it. TiVo doesn't make money on hardware sales (or really anything but lawsuits so far) so complaining about a "money grab" is absurd.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> I thought the 'evidence' in my last post was pretty clear. While it is common knowledge TiVo subsidizes the main box with service, there is no evidence of this with accessories (including the wireless adaptor, glo remote, plush doll, t-shirts, back paks, towels, and any other crap they are peddling).
> 
> Trust me I know what it costs to manufacture and distribute a 802.11G wireless USB adaptor, and at sixty bucks they are making substantial profit. Other companies are selling them for far less and still making a profit.


Sorry, you don't seem to have the knowledge you claim.

TiVo has stated several times that the goal of the TiVo store is to break even. There was much discussion about that when it opened. There's never been any evidence to contradict that goal - it certainly isn't an important profit center since then it has to be discussed in their financial statements. It's a very low volume operation, with the associated high overhead per item. Certainly they charge a lot more than the raw parts add up to - they have to pay the salaries and other overhead, and are undoubtedly less efficient about it than a company whose existence depends on pushing large volumes out the door.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Sorry, you don't seem to have the knowledge you claim.
> 
> TiVo has stated several times that the goal of the TiVo store is to break even. There was much discussion about that when it opened. There's never been any evidence to contradict that goal - it certainly isn't an important profit center since then it has to be discussed in their financial statements. It's a very low volume operation, with the associated high overhead per item. Certainly they charge a lot more than the raw parts add up to - they have to pay the salaries and other overhead, and are undoubtedly less efficient about it than a company whose existence depends on pushing large volumes out the door.


if Tivo allowed you to use any USB wireless adapter, I could see your point. But they stopped doing that and force you to use their expensive ones.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> TiVo has stated several times that the goal of the TiVo store is to break even.


Regardless of their stated "goal", the adaptor is mass produced and distributed into the retail channel (not just the TiVo store). It cost them $8-10 to manufacture and package, another $3-5 to distribute, and they sell it to dealers like Best Buy and Amazon for $30, and get $60 from those foolish enough to buy from the TiVo Store.

While I am not surprised to hear that TiVo can't make a profit on their online store (that's just bad management), they are clearly earning a substantial margin on the accessories they sell.

You can continue to deny this based on what you thought you were told, but it won't change the facts.


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

nrc said:


> Actually, the premiere doesn't have a phone jack either. TiVo knows that 85% of their users are broadband connected. There's no reason 85% of their users should pay for a telephone modem they'll never use.
> 
> Likewise, there's no reason wired users should pay for wireless functionality so that wireless users don't have to add it. TiVo doesn't make money on hardware sales (or really anything but lawsuits so far) so complaining about a "money grab" is absurd.


What's absurd is denying that it is "not" a money grab. Tivo makes their current units only accept a proprietary USB adapter (i.e. no competition). As was stated earlier, it's common knowledge they subsidize the actual units with fee's, but don't tell me their not making significant profit into locking in Tivo only USB nics at $60 a pop, or $50 glo remotes etc.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

b_scott said:


> if Tivo allowed you to use any USB wireless adapter, I could see your point. But they stopped doing that and force you to use their expensive ones.


That's a question of support expenses and features, not expense of adapter. Linux wireless took a lot longer to develop and has been very bug-filled in its history. TiVo was in the position of trying to support wireless that was buggy - they had lots of problems on the S2 with lots of messages in these forums about both allowable wired and wireless models that might work or might not. You can still see the remnants of that era on TiVo's official support pages that are badly out-of-date.

In addition, the only way the weak CPU on the TiVo can handle reasonable encryption (WPA) is to offload it to the adapter - which they can only do reliably if they are in control of the adapter.


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> TiVo has stated several times that the goal of the TiVo store is to break even.


Why do keep bring up the Tivo Store? As I recall they sell almost all accessories through many different retail channels, not just the Tivo Store.


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> That's a question of support expenses and features, not expense of adapter. Linux wireless took a lot longer to develop and has been very bug-filled in its history. TiVo was in the position of trying to support wireless that was buggy - they had lots of problems on the S2 with lots of messages in these forums about both allowable wired and wireless models that might work or might not. You can still see the remnants of that era on TiVo's official support pages that are badly out-of-date.
> 
> In addition, the only way the weak CPU on the TiVo can handle reasonable encryption (WPA) is to offload it to the adapter - which they can only do reliably if they are in control of the adapter.


That's a perfect reason to include wifi within the new more powerful S4. I'm not talking about the S3, I realize its weak. This redesign would have been a good time to include it.


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## Big Deficit (Jul 8, 2003)

My first Tivo dates back to '99 and I've owned a bunch, but I'm done! With my TivoHD I still have-

-DD audio cut outs because according to Tivo I chose the wrong home theater receiver. No drop outs on a SA8300HD playing the same content hooked up the same way.
-Video pauses that are caused by low signal strength that coincidentally doesn't effect the SA.
-No suggestions because my cable system needs a switch cable adapter.

I was a long time loyal promoter of Tivo, but my experience with the HD and Tivo's lack of support for these common issues makes it impossible to ever buy another unit. When/if I need another dvr, I'll roll my own.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> While I am not surprised to hear that TiVo can't make a profit on their online store (that's just bad management), they are clearly earning a substantial margin on the accessories they sell.
> 
> You can continue to deny this based on what you thought you were told, but it won't change the facts.


Where have I denied that there is a substantial margin on the devices? That's what pays the overhead! I'm fine with the figures you quote - they may be off by $5 but that's fine.

The TiVo store does not make any important profit. That is a verifiable fact from any of their financial reports (if it's important, it has to be in the report.) TiVo has stated that the goal of the TiVo store is to break even. That's a verifiable fact that you can check through the archives here, since some of their statements to that effect were made here.

You have stated that the motive for TiVo not including wireless is to make money off of selling the adapter. I've given you verifiable facts showing TiVo will not be making important money because of selling the adapter. I've given you a good reason why the wireless adapter was not included in the unit. You're implicitly accusing TiVo of lying about the TiVo store, and, as I've been saying, you have no evidence that proves your case.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

CrispyCritter said:


> You have stated that the motive for TiVo not including wireless is to make money off of selling the adapter.


Yup. Because they do. Profit margin on retail sales is money. They make $15-$45 for everyone sold. How is that not making money? If they put wifi in the box (which would cost them virtually nothing to do), folks would not be required to buy one, and they would lose that income. How can you not see this?

Now please don't tell me TiVo's overhead for a shopping cart transaction from a website approaches anything close to the $40+ margin that is on this adaptor that would just be stupid.

How many of these do you think they have sold? 10,000; 50,000, 100,000 or more. It is not inconceivable that a large number of users don't have ethernet hard wired to their TV. It is a sizable part of their customer base.

So this is anywhere from $150,000 to over $4 Million or more in revenue generated (or "money made") from not putting it in the box. In fact, it may be reasonable to assume that 10% of TiVo's 1.7 million subscribers don't have cat5 run to their TVs. Do the math that translates to two and a half million dollars at $15 bucks a pop, or over seven and a half million if they were all sold from the TiVo store.

This is plenty of money, and significant motivation for any business to continue the "additional accessories required" mindset. It is pointless to continue the debate with you if you still don't get this.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Big Deficit said:


> My first Tivo dates back to '99 and I've owned a bunch, but I'm done! With my TivoHD I still have-
> 
> -*DD audio cut outs because according to Tivo I chose the wrong home theater receiver.* No drop outs on a SA8300HD playing the same content hooked up the same way.
> -Video pauses that are caused by low signal strength that coincidentally doesn't effect the SA.
> ...


Do you have the Onkyo 705? I had issues with that and bought a Pioneer instead.


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## travisc77 (May 26, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> It is pointless to continue the debate with you if you still don't get this.


Agreed, I'm moving on....


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Absolutely not...at this time.

I want to because I like new, shiny products with new, shiny features. I just wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the Premier right now.

Maybe when one of my TivoHDs crap out or Tivo makes an offer that I can't refuse.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

steve614 said:


> Absolutely not...at this time.
> 
> Unless...Tivo makes an offer that I can't refuse.


It'll never happen but they should allow direct, no cost transfer of subs (including Lifetime) and a big discount on the new hardware.

Ultimately this would lower their costs because then they reduce support costs for "legacy" equipment at a more rapid rate, by incentivizing (word?) its installed based of S3 users to a single platform. It also would re-energize Tivo evangelism, which I think has taken its last breath with this anemic refresh. I think Tivo seriously underestimates how many of us were "recruited" into the fold by current Tivo enthusiasts--not by a "Best Buy"sales rep.

Of course, this will never happen. Tivo is determine to milk its entire user installed base through expensive upgrades, and utterly fails to understand why that is doomed to fail with existing S3/HD customers. Also, they may not care about simplifying their long-term support costs because they may not be providing much in the way of support to us poor "legacy" people anyway. I'm still waiting on getting my SDV pixelation bug fixed, Tivo...


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

There isn't enough difference for me to lose my 2 beloved Series 3's. I like the OLED displays and I already put 1 TB Hitachi's in 'em. I think I'm gonna wait for the next generation and see how it all pans out.


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## x_hobbes (Apr 2, 2007)

I am definitely getting the new Series 4 (already pre-ordered the XL with lifetime membership).

I have an old Series 2 with a lifetime membership that has been running since early 2004. I lost the IR cable that would allow me to control a cable box (I originally didn't really need it since most channels I watched were broadcast in unscrambled analog). Lately, with HDTV and digital channels, I've been relying on the horrible Scientific Atlanta cablebox Cablevision forces me to use. About a year ago, I tried Cablevision's useless DVR. I have never hated watching TV as much as I do now because it is such a frustrating experience.

I waited for Tivo's announcement and think I was probably one of the first people to visit the site. Placed my order and anxiously await my new 1TB Tivo Series 4! It'll be worth every penny, just so I don't have to use another Scientific Atlanta piece of junk again!


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Give me 4 tuners and I'm there.


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## swinca (Jun 19, 2003)

It depends on what happens with the Dish lawsuit. If Dish is forced to shut down their DVRs, I would switch to Charter (oh the pain!) and get the new Tivo with lifetime. My S2 with lifetime is still chugging along perfectly on my old analog TV.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Arcady said:


> Give me 4 tuners and I'm there.


Give me 3 and I'm in.


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## TiVoPO (Jun 11, 2004)

I voted "undecided" but am thinking that if I have to deal with a TA still and only a dual tuner then I would rather go with the Ceton InfiniTV. It gives 4 tuners and will work with Windows Media Center which I like. It's a hundred bucks less than the Premier XL, has no monthly subscription and only requires one CableCard. And I can build my own box. http://www.cetoncorp.com/products.php


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