# Missing Guide data for some channels



## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Hi Guys..

I know a lot has been made by myself having a moan at the &#163;10 per month tivo charge for guide data, when it is free with Sky, and freeview(inc series links) and you guys have tried to qualify it with references to beter meta data for wishlists, series, and UK tivo software development (yes I did say UK tivo software development..lol).

But... My son who watched X-League TV on sky was moaning at me that he can not record some of the programs it shows as the tivo just lists the channel with 2 hour chunks of the same title.

I notice the sky banner is fine, and has all the programs and series links in place, well done Sky and people with Sky+.

Upon further scanning through the sky channels through tivo, I noticed tivo has a few other channels with no guide data..

Any ideas how I can get tivo to provide what I am paying for??


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

I'd begin by raising it in one of the following threads;
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=381401
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=381398

Ian


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> Any ideas how I can get tivo to provide what I am paying for??


I'm sure the self-styled saviour of a channel or two where this is concerned, Pete77, will be along shortly to give a sermon on it 

I'd start by contacting the channel and ask if they provide TMS with the data in the first place.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

cwaring said:


> I'd start by contacting the channel and ask if they provide TMS with the data in the first place.


I agree. I had a problem with the Liverpool FC channel in that there was no guide data at all. I contacted the club and guide data appeared, relatively quickly.


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> I agree. I had a problem with the Liverpool FC channel in that there was no guide data at all. I contacted the club and guide data appeared, relatively quickly.


I would suspect tivo would refuse to record garbage anyway..

*4 Everton 42 *
5 Liverpool 40


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

6022tivo said:


> I would suspect tivo would refuse to record garbage anyway..
> 
> *4 Everton 42 *
> 5 Liverpool 40


Never took you for a bitter.

Okay, let's chat again once we've played our game in hand.


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

6022tivo said:


> Hi Guys..
> 
> I know a lot has been made by myself having a moan at the £10 per month tivo charge for guide data, when it is free with Sky, and freeview(inc series links) and you guys have tried to qualify it with references to beter meta data for wishlists, series, and UK tivo software development (yes I did say UK tivo software development..lol).
> 
> ...


To be in the Sky EPG you must provide up to date EPG listings - if you don't you can be removed.

Some channels have no intention on providing listings to other listing companies.

I suspect that some channels may provide the listings in a non-user friendly version - and the resources to reenter them are not worthwhile for some (low viewer) channels.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ozsat said:


> Some channels have no intention on providing listings to other listing companies.
> 
> I suspect that some channels may provide the listings in a non-user friendly version - and the resources to reenter them are not worthwhile for some (low viewer) channels.


As a longstanding Freesatter but not generally a Sky pay channel subscriber I am most afflicted by this situation as it appears that Tribune (who supply the Tivo EPG) have some kind of block deal with Sky to obtain in bulk the EPG data for most (but not all) Sky channels for which you have to pay a subscription.

However this does not seem to extend to some pay channels for which you have to pay a sub but where the sub is not vended by Sky and/or that is not part of one of their Mixes or Premium channels but is instead vended by dealing with the company itself. It also does not extend to a huge number of FTA channels launched in the Sky EPG in the last three to four years.

As best I have been able to ascertain is Tribune and Tivo's policy is essentially that if a new digital channel is launched by either one of the four FTA terrestrial broadcasters (BBC, ITV, C4 and Five) or a new channel is launched (even an FTA one) by another satellite channel broadcaster from which Tribune already collects EPG data then usually (but not always) that channel has EPG data added as a matter of course. But if a channel is launched by an organisation that is not a major terrestrial broadcaster and/or does not have at least some pay tv channels on Sky then Tribune does not want to have to get the data as it means extra cost and a new data collection relationship. The excuse they and Tivo CS staff give is that the channel will not provide the data but normally speaking Tribune have never even asked if they can get EPG data for such channels.

The veiled previous answert from Tribune Media Services Europe was that they did not collect data for new minor channels for which they were not getting paid but that rather begs the question why they are not being paid for data on those channels.

Also we have heard from TCM that Tribune apparently provide the EPG data for Windows MCE's EPG so it would be illuminating to know if the list of significant FTA channels (i.e English language channels you might actually want to record and not shopping channels or very obscure Asian foreign language channels) for which there is EPG data on Sky but not on Tivo is much the same list of channels with missing EPG data over on Windows MCE?

Here is a provisional list of English language FTA channels on Sky that people might reasonably want to record for which Tivo has no EPG data:-

149 Zone Romantica (especially mysterious as other Zone channels have listings in the Tivo EPG)
186 Red Tv
194 BEN Tv
195 Propellor Tv
199 Anime Central
203 Channel M
204 OBE
207 Nuts Tv (No excuse as is on Freeview)
271 Mainstreet
272 Real Estate Tv
273 Real Estate Tv + 1
275 Wine Tv
277 Wedding Tv
278 Wedding Tv +1
279 XLeagueTv
280 Horse & Country Tv
283 South Africa Direct
283 Luxe Tv (24/7)
285 The Baby Channel
287 Overseas Property
293 Living In Spain
325 Movies4Men
327 Movies4Men2
331 Nollywood Movies
357 B4
361 Fizz Tv
362 Bliss
364 Scuzz
366 Flaunt Tv
368 ROCKWORLD TV
374 Bubble Hits
375 MusFlash
376 Bedroom Tv
435 Setanta Sports News
511 CCTV9
513 NDTV 24
514 Al Jazeerah English
516 Russia Today
539 Community Channel
623 Baby Tv (Pay Channel)
624 Baby First Tv
626 Pop Girl (No excuse as Tribune has other Pop listings)


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Interested about tribune also providing guide data to MCE. And XLeague TV also shows NO data on the MCE machine.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> Interested about tribune also providing guide data to MCE. And XLeague TV also shows NO data on the MCE machine.


See www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/Oct02/10-29MediaCenterLaunch2002PR.mspx



> "TMS' database and ability to interface with many applications and systems makes our data highly compatible with leading-edge applications such as Windows XP, and we are pleased to be part of this innovative new product. *Consumers will find that our TV listings and entertainment information provide a highly accurate tool that they can rely on to help make programming decisions*."
> 
> Barbara Needelman
> Vice President, Entertainment Products
> Tribune Media Services


Of course as the data in Windows MCE is free there is probably much less complaint about Tribune not covering the obscure minority channels but the fact that all these channels do not have listings available for the fast expanding Windows MCE user base as well as for the old declining UK Tivo user base ought to provide more leverage to chase the channels and Tribune to get their data included.

The vast majority of these channels would be quite happy for their data to be part of the Tivo and Windows MCE databases as long as all they had to do was email off a weekly program schedule to Tribune, but no doubt if Microsoft is not paying Tribune to list these channels either then Tribune is not very keen to do it just for the benefit of the small Tivo UK customer base. This is even though UK Tivo customers clearly pay Tribune far more per customer for the UK EPG data. Or at least I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that Windows MCE has more than 20,000 users who use it as a PVR in the UK?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

See also http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-3874205_ITM



> CHICAGO, March 22 /PRNewswire/ -- Tribune Media Services (TMS) has expanded its licensing deal with Microsoft Corp. for TV program listings and for movie show times for the U.S. and Canada.
> 
> The new multi-year agreement extends the long-time relationship between TMS and Microsoft. Under the deal, TMS' industry-leading TV and movie listings databases will be incorporated into a wide range of entertainment navigation products from Microsoft, including Windows XP Media Center Edition, MSN.com and MSN TV.
> 
> TMS will continue to provide Microsoft with analog, digital...


Also see complaints in the Microsoft UK Specific MCE Discussions Forum about missing channels or data in the EPG:-

www.microsoft.com/communities/newsg...px?dg=microsoft.public.uk.windows.mediacenter



> Subject: Setanta Sports - no guide data in the listings? 11/18/2007 7:24 AM PST
> 
> By: PSutherby In: microsoft.public.uk.windows.mediacenter
> 
> ...


Note the complaint about Zone Reality which Tivo does cover the EPG data for and always has.

There is then a link in one post to thegreenbutton.com forums where there is more discussion on missing Windows MCE EPG data.

For instance:-

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/218426.aspx

About Setanta Sports 1 and 2 being missing on the Virgin Media EPG platform

And this post complaining about missing Sky channels on MCE:-

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/216205.aspx

It does also seem that channels are capable of being in Tivo's EPG for Sky channels but not the Windows MCE one and vica versa.

So I think we have both genuinely missing data issues and simply problems with some of the minority channels not being properly set up to feed the data through as well.

I have also seen some suggestions that Microsoft may charge for the Windows MCE EPG data in the end. It could be the old game of luring in a large subscriber base and then charging them once they are hooked.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> As a longstanding Freesatter ...


Your guessing again then Pete?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Your guessing again then Pete?


I'm pretty sure I can't be guessing about the manner in which I watch television (Sky Freesat and Freeview). No doubt you chose to infer something else just so you could give me a hard time.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Were my answers on this topic conclusive then as all now seems to have gone quiet in this thread?


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## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Were my answers on this topic conclusive then as all now seems to have gone quiet in this thread?


No offence, but either...

most people have you on the ignore list. or..
most people give up after one of two lines of your posts as they can "go on" a little??


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I think we've established that it's not a tivo problem, both tivo and MCE use the same data supplier and both lack the data (I think, I've not re-read the thread).

So I think what Carl and I said stands, contact the channel.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> So I think what Carl and I said stands, contact the channel.


Or if you are a Vista Premium or Ultimate user then start also logging complaints with Microsoft about the offending channels that are missing.

If Tribune start hearing that MCE as well as Tivo customers are discontented about the absence of certain popular Freesat channels then they will probably feel obliged to do something about it.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I'm pretty sure I can't be guessing about the manner in which I watch television (Sky Freesat and Freeview).


No, but you were guessing about the rest of it, unless you can cite credible sources for your claims. (Referring to your original post; #8)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Of course as the data in Windows MCE is free there is probably much less complaint about Tribune not covering the obscure minority channels


Microsoft provide a direct route to reach their EPG team:

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/90/ShowForum.aspx

Interstingly they recently replied that these channels are not "contracted" to be in the EPG:

144 - Sumo TV
145 - Sumo TV +1
148 - Zone Reality Extra
149 - Zone Romantica
155 - Original Black Entertainment
157 - Hollywood TV
158 - Film 24
160 - Open Access TV 2
161 - Open Access 3
167 - Information TV
167 - Information TV 2
169 - Passion TV
171 - Raj TV
175 - Sky One HD
176 - My Channel
186 - Legal TV
187 - Fame TV
194 - BEN
196 - Simply TV
197 - Life One
198 - Creative TV
199 - Anime Central
268 - Sky Arts HD
271 - Performance mainstreet
272 - Fashion TV (English)
273 - Real Estate TV
274 - Real Estate TV +1
275 - Wine TV
277 - Wedding TV
278 - Wedding TV +1
279 - X League TV
280 - Horse and Country TV
281 - Africa Channel
285 - The Baby Channel
287 - Overseas Property TV
293 - Living in Spain TV
313 - Sky Movies HD2
314 - Sky Movies SD2
320 - TCM2
322 - Zone Thriller
323 - True Movies
324 - True Movies 2
325 - Movies for Men
327 - Movies for Men 2
330 - Movies 24+
355 - Chart Show TV
356 - The Vault
357 - B4
360 - Channel U
361 - Fizz
368 - Rock World TV
374 - Bubble Hits
375 - MusFlash TV
376 - Big Box TV
377 - Minx
408 - Sky Sports HD1
409 - Sky Sports HD2
417 - NASN
418 - Setanta Golf
419 - Extreme Sports
421 - Chelsea TV
423 - Golf TV
427 - TWC Fight
432 - Racing UK
433 - Racing World
436 - Celtic TV
438 - Rangers TV
442 - ESPN Classic
446 - Real Madrid TV
448 - LFC TV
481 - Setanta Sports 1
509 - Euronews (English)
510 - Fox News
511 - CCTV-9
513 - NDTV 24x7
514 - Al Jazeera
516 - Russia Today
536 - Discovery HD
543 - National Geographic Channel HD (UK)
545 - History Channel HD
547 - Business Channel

A list which matches quite well with Pete's.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> No, but you were guessing about the rest of it, unless you can cite credible sources for your claims. (Referring to your original post; #8)


It seems you didn't bother to read to Post 11 or use the linke there.

Also your concept that when a party or parties (e.g. Tribune, Sky Tivo CS and Tivo itself) won't admit to something that this enables them to hide what is going on completely and that no informed deduction is allowed I find somewhat absurd (it was the same with you with the disappearance of www.tivo.co.uk as a Tivo registered domain).

In your model of the world 50% or more of the content of newspapers would be banned because it is mere intelligent speculation without an actual admission by the parties being speculated about as to whether or not it is correct.

I bet the current New Labour government would much prefer your and Raisltin's concept of freedom of speech to the one that we fortunately instead enjoy.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Pete77 said:


> I bet the current New Labour government would much prefer your and Raisltin's concept of freedom of speech to the one that we fortunately instead enjoy.


Okay,

1. What does this have to do with me?

2. What do you believe my concept of freedom of speech to be (please back up your answer with quotes)?


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> In your model of the world 50% or more of the content of newspapers would be banned because it is mere intelligent speculation without an actual admission by the parties being speculated about as to whether or not it is correct.


I don't think people have a problem with speculation, it's speculation positioned as fact that is the problem.

Ian


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Microsoft provide a direct route to reach their
> http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/90/ShowForum.aspx
> EPG team:
> 
> ...


Actually Tivo does have EPG data for 31 of the 80 above channels that Tribune is allegedly not contracted to supply Microsoft with EPG data for. These are as follows:-

Zone Reality Extra
Film24
Sky One HD
Sky Arts HD
Fashion Tv
Sky Movies HD2
Sky Movies HD3
TCM2
Zone Thriller
True Movies
True Movies 2
Movies 24
Chart Show Tv
The Vault
Bubble Hits
Sky Sports HD1
Sky Sports HD2
NASN
Setanta Golf
Extreme Sports
Chelsea Tv
TWC Fight
Celtic Tv
Rangers Tv
ESPN Classic
LFC Tv
Euronews
Fox News
Discovery HD
National Geographic HD
History Channel HD

So it seems that TCM has jumped to conclusions here without bothering to be encumbered by the facts here in saying that his list of missing channels from The Green Button Forum matches quite well with mine.

Also that appears to be an old list as some of the channel numbers have changed since then and new channels like Pop Gir,l for which listings are also missing on Tivo (even though all other Pop Tv channels have listings on Tivo so clearly there is a relationship between Tribune and Pop Tv) have now appeared.

I would be interested to hear which, if any, of the 31 channels on Sky that The Green Button mob say they are not required to supply to customers still nonetheless in fact turn out to have EPG data in Windows MCE?

I suspect that the answer they gave was a generic answer used for all such complaints, just like Sky Tivo CS's generic and dishonest answer that a channel must not be in the Tivo EPG because the channel must have refused to supply their EPG listings to Tivo/Tribune.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> In your model of the world 50% or more of the content of newspapers would be banned because it is mere ... speculation....


Why not? Just give me the facts, please.


Pete77 said:


> I suspect that...


There you go again


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> So it seems that TCM has jumped to conclusions here without bothering to be encumbered by the facts here in saying that his list of missing channels from The Green Button Forum matches quite well with mine.


No, I'm sticking to it. The two lists are there and match "quite well", considering that the hundreds not on the list. I'm sure a statistician could prove there was a strong relationship there!

I hadn't realised that TiVo has the HD channels listed, that's REAL minority stuff, using TiVo to control an HD box and using it to record HD programming! I reckon there must be all of, ooh, no people at all using that!



> Also that appears to be an old list


Yes, mid December.



> I would be interested to hear which, if any, of the 31 channels on Sky that The Green Button mob say they are not required to supply to customers still nonetheless in fact turn out to have EPG data in Windows MCE?


As of December, none - the list was posted by an MCE user as the lest of channels he had no data for.



> I suspect that the answer they gave was a generic answer used for all such complaints, just like Sky Tivo CS's generic and dishonest answer that a channel must not be in the Tivo EPG because the channel must have refused to supply their EPG listings to Tivo/Tribune.


Actually, Microsoft's EPG people participate in that forum giving what look to me like pretty straight answers.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Actually, Microsoft's EPG people participate in that forum giving what look to me like pretty straight answers.


Clearly a lesson that could be learned by Sky's TivoCustomer Services staff then, including daring to run a web discussion forum about these issues or indeed having any form of interface with them other than an overpriced 0870 phone number with a long call queue.............

Still its interesting though that Tivo is covering a whole bunch of channels that Windows MCE is not. Indicating that Tivo is apparently still the superior product.

As to the Sky HD channels stuff being listed on Tivo there seems to be a bulk contract between Tribune and Sky on all their mainstream own Sky branded channels. So as the data falls in to Tribune's lap they seem to figure then why not provide it.........


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I would think a higher proportion of TiVo users use Sky as their source compared to MCE, where I imagine it is a very minor part of the audience. 

You lose the picture quality and dual tuner advantages right away, plus if you run an HTPC the chances are you have Sky HD (or at least Sky+) as well.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

By the way Pete, it looks like the next iteration of Vista Media Center will support DVB-S2 and H.264 decoding - which mean you'll be able to have HD Freesat in MCE.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> By the way Pete, it looks like the next iteration of Vista Media Center will support DVB-S2 and H.264 decoding - which mean you'll be able to have HD Freesat in MCE.


Interesting. But could that be teamed up with a Dragon CAM for the Pay HD channels?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Presumably, but basing a v. expensive system on Sky no killing off DragonCAM feels a bit too risky to me!


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## bobbymobile (Jun 16, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Here is a provisional list of English language FTA channels on Sky that people might reasonably want to record for which Tivo has no EPG data:-
> 
> 149 Zone Romantica (especially mysterious as other Zone channels have listings in the Tivo EPG)
> 186 Red Tv
> ...


Just to add my five pence worth to the topic

202 Urban Tv
209 BET
No guide data for the above 2 channels. Really is a big pain I want to record from these channels and many of the other mentioned but I guess its just wishful thinking.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You could start by emailing the channels and ask whether they currently actually provide data or not.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> You could start by emailing the channels and ask whether they currently actually provide data or not.


On the other hand perhaps it would be useful to email Film24 and ask just how they came to have Tivo EPG listings straight away even though they are not in any pay Sky tv Mix are are totally FTA.

Having an existing data supply relationship with Tribune seems to have very little to do with it as the case of Zone Romantica clearly demonstrates.


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