# Bypass DRM on my Tivo Premiere?



## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

Hey guys,

I am a new Tivo user and I really like some of the features they have to offer. I recently plunked down a hefty amount on lifetime service for 2 units and am so dissapointed that almost every show I want to transfer to view in another room is copyright protected (I have TW cable). Anything in HD seems to be blocked defeating the purpose of MRV. Is there any solution to this? Although the TiVo interface is bar none, I am trying to justify keeping them as opposed to going with TW's new whole house DVR service.

What do you guys think?


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

Welcome to the anti-customer policies of Time Warner. I also suffer with their decision to alienate customers who don't blindly pay them lots of money.

The copy protection should only apply to the national cable networks - not your local channels.

To work around this, I record all my cable network shows on our living room Tivo, where we do most of our watching. I record all the local network shows on our bedroom Tivo, where we really don't watch much TV anyway. When I want to watch a show from a local network, I can then transfer it to our living room without problem. The few shows we do watch in the bedroom are on local networks anyway, so it's not that often that the copy protection becomes an issue anymore. If there is a show that I might not be sure where I want to watch it, I'll set it to record in both rooms, then delete from both once I'm done watching the show.

It's policies like this from Time Warner that strengthen my resolve NOT to give them more money by renting their sub-par DVR solution. Why should I pay them more money for making my life difficult in the first place? That would be rewarding them for their bad behavior, and I refuse to do it.

Of course, if FIOS was an option here, I'd kick Time Warner to the curb in a heartbeat. Unfortunatley, Time Warner is the provider around here who provides the best quality HD picture, so they are who I pay (as little as possible).

Jeff


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

premiereman said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am a new Tivo user and I really like some of the features they have to offer. I recently plunked down a hefty amount on lifetime service for 2 units and am so dissapointed that almost every show I want to transfer to view in another room is copyright protected (I have TW cable). Anything in HD seems to be blocked defeating the purpose of MRV. Is there any solution to this? Although the TiVo interface is bar none, I am trying to justify keeping them as opposed to going with TW's new whole house DVR service.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Are both your units HD? If you happened to get an old Series 2 w/ lifetime, it won't be able to transfer the HD shows from your HD model. I'm assuming this is not your situation, but I did want to point it out just in case.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

premiereman said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am a new Tivo user and I really like some of the features they have to offer. I recently plunked down a hefty amount on lifetime service for 2 units and am so dissapointed that almost every show I want to transfer to view in another room is copyright protected (I have TW cable). Anything in HD seems to be blocked defeating the purpose of MRV. Is there any solution to this? Although the TiVo interface is bar none, I am trying to justify keeping them as opposed to going with TW's new whole house DVR service.
> 
> What do you guys think?


That sounds like the common cable company extortion tactic of trying to make your life difficult until you agree to pay them more money. If they're copy-protecting local content (HD or otherwise) you could probably complain to the FCC. And (according to posts here) TiVo may be working on Premiere-to-Premiere streaming, which would avoid the no-copy problem. Don't hold your breath waiting for that, of course.


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

Both of my units are Premiere units. I guess you can't have the best of both worlds in this case. You either succumb to the sloppy interface of the cable company's DVR (including much higher fees, $28.99 just for the whole house service) but have true whole house capability, or keep my fancy Tivo units with a much sleeker interface but no true MRV as the copyright protection cripples this feature. I guess my best option is to wait it out a few years so I can at least break even on my units (I did have to shell out quite the dime on lifetime service) and also hope for premiere-to-premiere streaming.

Recording the shows on both Tivo units (living room and bedroom) sounds like the best solution at the moment. How do some of you other guys feel about the copyright protection. Any other advice?


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

premiereman said:


> Both of my units are Premiere units. I guess you can't have the best of both worlds in this case. You either succumb to the sloppy interface of the cable company's DVR (including much higher fees, $28.99 just for the whole house service) but have true whole house capability, or keep my fancy Tivo units with a much sleeker interface but no true MRV as the copyright protection cripples this feature. I guess my best option is to wait it out a few years so I can at least break even on my units (I did have to shell out quite the dime on lifetime service) and also hope for premiere-to-premiere streaming.
> 
> Recording the shows on both Tivo units (living room and bedroom) sounds like the best solution at the moment. How do some of you other guys feel about the copyright protection. Any other advice?


It's not ideal, but if you pull the cable card out and only record analog, everything can be transferred.

The streaming worked great for the short time it was around. Hopefully it will be released by the end of the year.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

If you look around, you will find MANY threads that are all PO'd at TW. 

Streaming seems to be nearly ready for a future update, so hopefully for everyone this will be a non-issue (other than streaming does not allow for anyone to move content to their PC).


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

jrtroo said:


> If you look around, you will find MANY threads that are all PO'd at TW.
> 
> Streaming seems to be nearly ready for a future update, so hopefully for everyone this will be a non-issue (other than streaming does not allow for anyone to move content to their PC).


But who is to say that the same limitations will not be imposed on streaming functionality? TiVo could implement the feature but restrict streaming capability on those shows that are copyright protected.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

premiereman said:


> But who is to say that the same limitations will not be imposed on streaming functionality? TiVo could implement the feature but restrict streaming capability on those shows that are copyright protected.


TiVo probably _could_ restrict streaming capability, but why would they want to? They're _required_ to restrict copying capability by the Digital Rights Management legislation that is making the U.S. a technological backwater. TiVo may be slow these days, but at least they should be on our side of the DRM issue.


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

L David Matheny said:


> TiVo probably _could_ restrict streaming capability, but why would they want to? They're _required_ to restrict copying capability by the Digital Rights Management legislation that is making the U.S. a technological backwater. TiVo may be slow these days, but at least they should be on our side of the DRM issue.


I agree, they probably will not restrict it initially. However, it looks like it will pan out to a cat and mouse game between Tivo and "DRM legislation" don't you think? After doing research, it looks like there a few devices on the market that will capture the video feed regardless if it's protected. But that would require one to hook up an external device to the TiVo and then have to convert the outputted file after the transfer to be able to view it. That just makes for more devices, more time wasted, and more headaches. I chose TiVo for simplicity, sigh...

I guess it's out of their control since the cable companies dictate matters on this issue. :/


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

premiereman said:


> I agree, they probably will not restrict it initially. However, it looks like it will pan out to a cat and mouse game between Tivo and "DRM legislation" don't you think?


No, many cable providers *stream* - Verizon, DirecTV, AT&T, and even Time Warner offer "whole home DVR" solutions. This has been permissible and I don't see it changing any time soon. TiVo currently *copies* which scares folks - the idea that the content could be offloaded and inappropriately shared. Hopefully TiVo streaming is turned on soon...


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

We know that TiVo is working on streaming functionality for the Premiers - it was inadvertently added to production and then quickly removed...

No promises have been made - but hopefully there is some light at the end of the tunnel for the TWC customers.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BTW, I believe there are workarounds for *future* recordings if you want to actually hack the hardware.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mattack said:


> BTW, I believe there are workarounds for *future* recordings if you want to actually hack the hardware.


 Not for Premiere units.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

I do not believe that the Premier has been hacked and even if it has been, it cannot be discussed on this forum.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> If you look around, you will find MANY threads that are all PO'd at TW.
> 
> Streaming seems to be nearly ready for a future update, so hopefully for everyone this will be a non-issue (other than streaming does not allow for anyone to move content to their PC).


And they should be equally PO'd at Tivo - it's inexcusable that streaming wasn't included when the Premieres were launched, but given all the other missing stuff I guess it's just the way things are at Tivo now.

They want to be a software and service company, but they're not very good at it.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

premiereman said:


> But who is to say that the same limitations will not be imposed on streaming functionality?


A. It would defeat the entire purpose of implementing streaming. (The fact that streams don't take up disk space is hardly worth the effort of implementing them, IMHO, and that's the only other benefit.)

B. We've already seen the streaming implementation, and it didn't respect no-copy flags. Granted, that could change.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

so so glad I don't have TWC. I would never do business with them.

My current cable company, cox has the copy protection set to 0x00 on everything. Meaning it's copy freely. MRV is no issue for anything as well as tivo to go.


It's just TWC screwing you, and basically, if you want these features you need our box and service. And they don't break any regulations unless they do it on broadcast networks.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> My current cable company, cox has the copy protection set to 0x00 on everything. Meaning it's copy freely. MRV is no issue for anything as well as tivo to go.


Cox's implementation varies by region. Before I moved, I had them and only the locals could be copied to another TiVo or for TiVoToGo. Was pretty awful (combined with those flakey tuning adapters).


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

LoREvanescence said:


> so so glad I don't have TWC. I would never do business with them.
> 
> My current cable company, cox has the copy protection set to 0x00 on everything. Meaning it's copy freely. MRV is no issue for anything as well as tivo to go.
> 
> It's just TWC screwing you, and basically, if you want these features you need our box and service. And they don't break any regulations unless they do it on broadcast networks.


I agree, but I would probably do the same if I was TWC. Charge you a monthly fee of $10 to rent out a box (and remote control) that costs them next to nothing? Multiply that by millions of subscribers... Jackpot! I really hope TiVo implements the streaming feature soon and gets a one up on them!


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Can you change cable providers? I have Verizon FIOS and they don't restrict a single channel.


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

aadam101 said:


> Can you change cable providers? I have Verizon FIOS and they don't restrict a single channel.


Unfortunately no as Fios is not available in my area. I am also bundled with TWC and have a pretty decent rate.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> And they should be equally PO'd at Tivo - it's inexcusable that streaming wasn't included when the Premieres were launched


Do cable boxes have streaming between units?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

mattack said:


> Do cable boxes have streaming between units?


Yes, several cable providers have deployed or are deploying MoCA-enabled "whole-home" DVRs that stream to client boxes over coax (i.e. no ethernet connections needed). Of course as usual most of these are still crippled DVRs though that no TiVo owner would ever want to deal with.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

premiereman said:


> Unfortunately no as Fios is not available in my area. I am also bundled with TWC and have a pretty decent rate.


When you speak of Time Warner and a decent rate, I assume you mean some sort of data transfer speed and not the monthly financial extortion they practice.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Yes, several cable providers have deployed or are deploying MoCA-enabled "whole-home" DVRs that stream to client boxes over coax (i.e. no ethernet connections needed). Of course as usual most of these are still crippled DVRs though that no TiVo owner would ever want to deal with.


Not to mention both of the satco's DVRs. Tivo is WAY behind here, and it's just beyond stupid that they haven't (so far) wanted to help out those stuck with fascist DRM policies when it's obvious the hardware can handle it.

Tivo continues to shoot itself in the foot with a lack of meaningful software development, but I guess retail customers just don't matter much anymore.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Yes, several cable providers have deployed or are deploying MoCA-enabled "whole-home" DVRs that stream to client boxes over coax (i.e. no ethernet connections needed). Of course as usual *most of these are still crippled DVRs though that no TiVo owner would ever want to deal with*.


I don't know about that. TiVo's small and dwindling subscriber base also suggests otherwise. Heck, my "crippled" Verizon DVR even streams Pandora.


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## premiereman (Aug 18, 2011)

davezatz said:


> I don't know about that. TiVo's small and dwindling subscriber base also suggests otherwise. Heck, my "crippled" Verizon DVR even streams Pandora.


I agree, TiVo has to do a lot better than just Pandora, YouTube, Netflix, etc. The Hulu plus introduction on the premiere reminded me of when Apple introduced "SMS" capability on the very first iPhone unveiling like if it was the biggest technological advancement of the decade. 

One can buy a Roku that has all those capabilities for the mere price of 3 months worth of TiVo subscription. I really want to see premiere to premiere streaming and hopefully it will roll out fast.

C'mon TiVo!


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## rblum (Sep 11, 2009)

While streaming will pretty much solve the problem and is probably imminent, you can minimize the problem strategically. The local channel shows, which can be transferred, are the shows that are generally on only at one time, so make them high priority so you don't miss them.

Then add the other channels that can't be transferred, on both Tivos at lower priority. Most of those channels, say USA, TNT, SciFi, etc. show a new show several times during the first couple of days, so if it is missed at 9:00 tonight, it will record at 2:00 tomorrow morning and you will have it on both Tivos.

Bob


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The drag with copying the show is that, if it has commercials, then you need to wait several minutes before watching to be able to skip commercials, without reaching the end before the copy is complete.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

shwru980r said:


> The drag with copying the show is that, if it has commercials, then you need to wait several minutes before watching to be able to skip commercials, without reaching the end before the copy is complete.


I see from your signature you do not have a Premiere. A P-P transfer should not have this problem due to their much higher transfer speed. Though, I agree with the thought for any other combination.


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## sanjonny (Nov 2, 2008)

LoREvanescence said:


> so so glad I don't have TWC. I would never do business with them.
> 
> My current cable company, cox has the copy protection set to 0x00 on everything. Meaning it's copy freely. MRV is no issue for anything as well as tivo to go.
> 
> It's just TWC screwing you, and basically, if you want these features you need our box and service. And they don't break any regulations unless they do it on broadcast networks.


Where are you located? I am on COx and they used to have everything locked up, it is slightly better now, but nowhere near being able to copy/transfer everything like it should be.
I am in san diego area.


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## waltinvt (Mar 15, 2009)

Is there any way to convince cable companies (Charter) to remove DRM flags from channels that are not requiring it? I don't understand the logic of them alienating customers by arbitrarily flagging all channels even if many of them haven't required it in their carry negoitions.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

waltinvt said:


> Is there any way to convince cable companies (Charter) to remove DRM flags from channels that are not requiring it? I don't understand the logic of them alienating customers by arbitrarily flagging all channels even if many of them haven't required it in their carry negoitions.


I doubt it. The cable companies are allowed to copy protect (non OTA) programs via their general carry agreements with the content providers. In one case, the content provider demanded that his channels be copy free. The result? The cable company dropped his channels.
The cable companies know that (at present) this disables TiVo's MRV function, and it's my belief that they will do anything they legally can to thwart TiVo from being competitive with their in house DVRs.

When (if) TiVo enables streaming MRV, this argument becomes moot. One less hurdle that TiVo has to overcome.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

steve614 said:


> When (if) TiVo enables streaming MRV, this argument becomes moot. One less hurdle that TiVo has to overcome.


 Not totally moot since copy protection still effectively kills TiVo To Go. Luckily Cox here only protects premium channels and I hope it stays that way.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Well to be fair, that IS the intent of copy-once, to disallow TTG. But we all agree that the fascist cableCos like TWC are doing it to inhibit Tivo MRV, so streaming will take care of that (someday ).


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## waltinvt (Mar 15, 2009)

Well I guess what I'm saying is why alienate customers? Since Charter went from not flagging anything to now flagging everything (except broadcast networks), my feeling is I will drop them in a heartbeat if another viable choice presents itself. 

They may think they're "convincing" customers to use their box instead of TiVo but my guess is they're loosing (or not gaining) more customers with this attitude and for a company struggling to over-come a long-running previous reputation as the worst venue in the business, this does not seem like a great marketing strategy.

Another thought: If the FCC prohibits providers from DRM flagging the main networks and the FCC IS SUPPOSED to be employed by us taxpayers, why do they not also tell providers they can not restrict access to programming that is not legally entitled to it and has not requested it in their carry negotiations? 

Ok, elaborating on that thought: Isn't the ultimate purpose of DRM restriction based on protecting the rights of copyright owners of specific content? If that owner doesn't insist on strict restriction, say "no copy" or "copy once" but rather is satisfied with less or even no restrictions when they contract with wholesalers" (like HBO, TNT, Viacom, etc.), then what right do those wholesalers have to insist on full, blanket DRM restrictions for all the programs / channels they represent?

I can easily imagine some copyright holders, while being concerned with mass pirating of their product, might not mind at all if individuals who have paid for access to their material, copy it to various alternate viewing venues within their own domain, such as additional TiVos, computers, smartphones, etc. Just my opinion. 

Keep in mind WE the viewers have rights too. Rights to not be assumed to be pirates. Rights to a certain amount of ownership and value for a product we've paid for and to not have to keep paying for it over and over again. Creators of content should be entitled to a fair price for their product and the middle men a fair price for making access more convenient but then that should be the end of it between them and the buyer. 

Should they all be entitled to more money every time someone even thinks about the product? Silly but I believe some artists actually think that way. Silly too is the idea that every single alternate mode of viewing the same program should cost the viewer something. Unless it can be reasonably shown that someone is doing harm to a copyright owner by causing them to loose sales, then individuals that pay for access to a product should have that access in any way they choose.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

> why alienate customers?


The answer to your question is clear- to stop or reduce the impact from the set top box competition that the FCC attempted to establish years ago.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> Well I guess what I'm saying is why alienate customers? Since Charter went from not flagging anything to now flagging everything (except broadcast networks), my feeling is I will drop them in a heartbeat if another viable choice presents itself.


The cable companies are used to operating as monopolists. They figure you have nowhere to go.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

waltinvt said:


> Well I guess what I'm saying is why alienate customers? Since Charter went from not flagging anything to now flagging everything (except broadcast networks), my feeling is I will drop them in a heartbeat if another viable choice presents itself.
> 
> They may think they're "convincing" customers to use their box instead of TiVo but my guess is they're loosing (or not gaining) more customers with this attitude and for a company struggling to over-come a long-running previous reputation as the worst venue in the business, this does not seem like a great marketing strategy.
> 
> ...


If those customers get loose enough, cable companies will lose them.

At this point I'm almost convinced that the ultimate purpose of DRM is to inconvenience consumers so much that they opt for easier illegal methods. I just haven't figured out yet how this is in the financial best interests of the content providers.


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