# Problems w/corrupted downloads in kmttg/Tivo Desktop



## cubdukat (Nov 15, 2015)

I am having problems downloading shows to my computer from my Tivo Bolt. Sometimes they'll have green frames throughout the program when I download it from kmttg but not Tivo Desktop, and vice versa.

For instance, tonight's episodes of "Gotham" and "Supergirl" were unwatchable once I downloaded them, but they play perfectly when watched from the Bolt. 

I am using the latest version of kmttg, and whatever the last version of the free Tivo Desktop was. 

I have also checked with Comcast to see if a problem I suspected was causing the corruption was fixed, but I have yet to hear from them. That same problem was also affecting my Internet speeds, so I can only assume that since they're back up to what I had originally, the problem was resolved.


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## Farson (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm having the same issue using kmttg and I've come down to the idea that it's a transport stream vs program stream issue. My Tivo is usually near capacity with me just barely clearing off enough space for the current night's programming so I started down the road of downloading with kmttg and then encoding to be able to stream it via Plex (Thanks to this community for the obvious idea!!  )

But for some of the programs they were failing to encode . . . digging more into it led me to start using Video Redo and to batch the files thru that. Even then they aren't succeeding but are completing with errors - not many errors - just some audio and / or video frames removed (I've checked the start of the show and end of the show to make sure it all looks ok and it does - but I'm still afraid to delete some of the stuff I really want to watch from my Tivo!)

And you mention Gotham . . . I've been downloading season 1 and 2 and I've had repeated issues with episodes 222, 219, 218, 217, 216, 212, 203, and 119. I just changed the setting in kmttg to so that it would not download them in Transport and so far Video Redo has process 5 of the 8 and 4 of them succeeded and the one that completed had 1 input sequence error . . .

If they were playable on the Bolt . . .then they are stored on the Bolt and I doubt it has to do with your internet.

Sorry for all of the detail and to partially steal your thread but I was about to post the same thing and with it being the same show . . . I'm going to guess it's the same issue.

Can you try and turn off Transport Stream and try again? It's the 2nd checkbox on the Program Options tab in kmttg.

And for everyone else . . .why is it better to use transport stream instead of program stream?


Thanks


Farson


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## cubdukat (Nov 15, 2015)

I think I may have found a potential answer. I removed the Ethernet cable that hooked the Bolt to my router and set the Bolt back on wireless, and at least in the case of "Supergirl," it seems to have worked. I haven't tried any of the other shows, but since "Supergirl" was the worst of the bunch, I suspect the others will also work too.

Unfortunately my download speed is only 1/3 of the Ethernet speed, so I need to look for a new Ethernet cable. I went from 175-250M download to 60-80M over wireless. Not cool.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

Farson said:


> And for everyone else . . .why is it better to use transport stream instead of program stream?


It is quite a bit faster, and it supports transfer of mp4, if that matters.


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## Farson (Aug 1, 2007)

Cubdukat - great! Hope it works for you!

Justen_m

transfers faster? That really doesn't matter to me. I work from home and have a laptop dedicated to doing this. (Alienware 15r2 6820hk with nvidia 980 - so powerful enough to handle this)

So TS supports MP4 while PS only supports MP2? But I can recode the PS to MP4? Will it lose any quality if I do that?

Thanks!


Farson


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## cubdukat (Nov 15, 2015)

Well, it's official. All of my problems were because of that bad Ethernet cable. Now I need to find a way to speed up my wireless transfers...


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

This is a revised version of my post on January 5.

I am experiencing exactly these same issue described by cubdukat. Using a TiVo Bolt

The problems started for me when Comcast converted to MPEG4 here, and downloads have to now be in TS mode.
- The program recorded on the TiVo plays back perfectly, no sign whatsoever of any problems with the original saved file.
-When I download the encrypted file, (the .tivo file), it is corrupted - pixelation and dropouts. Generally only one instance of this in a file (lasting between one and eight minutes), but nearly every recorded file has this corruption. You can actually view the problems in the downloaded .tivo file, view both in WMP and in VideoReDo)
-For any given recorded program, the corruption is always identical in the downloaded .tivo file, no matter what method I use to download the file (TiVo Desktop, kmmtg, Archivo). I have downloaded the .tivo file several times, to several different computers. In each case, the corruption of the .tivo file occurs at exactly the same time in the playback. (However, for Movie #1 vs. Movie #2, the corruption occurs at different times in the playback of the downloaded .tivo file)
- Comcast still has some channels that have not yet been converted to TS mode. For recorded shows from those channels, I still use PS downloading, and the resulting downloaded files show ZERO corruption.

As you would guess, subsequent decryption of the .tivo files brings the corruption into the decrypted file, and in some cases makes it worse.

I have not been able to figure this out - the fact that the originally recorded files play perfectly on the TiVo is part of what stumps me. Could it be an issue with the NIC hardware or driver in the TiVo? Or some kind of glitch with my router?

I would greatly appreciate any help that's out there on this - it's a deal killer for future TiVo use! Thanks in advance for any help!


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## spocko (Feb 4, 2009)

It doesn't matter which program you use to download the .tivo file (TiVo Desktop, kmmtg, Archivo, web browser). The programs just receive data sent from the tivo. If you are downloading in TS format, then any download method should produce the same file.

The tools that you use to decrypt and/or play the downloaded file can make a difference. If you own VideoReDo, then try performing a "QS Fix" on one of your problem files and see if that helps.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Are you running the newest version of TiVo Desktop? You need the newest version to ensure uncorrupted decryption of MPEG4 .tivo files. 

If you are and still see the corruption then it's the file itself. I know there is some issue with some Comcast channels not playing properly on a Mini due to some weird encoding they're using. Maybe that same thing effects PC transfers?


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Are you running the newest version of TiVo Desktop? You need the newest version to ensure uncorrupted decryption of MPEG4 .tivo files.
> 
> If you are and still see the corruption then it's the file itself. I know there is some issue with some Comcast channels not playing properly on a Mini due to some weird encoding they're using. Maybe that same thing effects PC transfers?


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

I have been running Desktop version 2.8.2. Have just discovered a 2.8.3, will install and see what happens. If there is a newer version than that, please advise (including where I would find it!)
In the month since my last post, I have tried a zillion different approaches to avoid the pixelation and dropouts. Here is where things stand for me:
1. All my comments apply to movies recorded on a TiVo Bolt, and the movies are recorded from Comcast.
2. The problem applies whenever the program is MPEG4, and can ONLY be downloaded in TS mode.
3. The program plays perfectly when played from the TiVo
4. The pixelation and dropouts ALWAYS occur no matter what approach I have used to download, including
- TiVo desktop
- kmttg
- Archivo
- TiVo web interface
5. These problems always present in the downloaded .tivo file - that is prior to decryption. They show up in VideoRedo playback of the .tivo file and in Windows Media Player. So, it is not appear due to the subsequent decryption.
6. The problems show up in EVERY file, and generally seem to occur in roughly the same time points in that file. However, the duration of the problem and the exact time point can vary.
7. Not all Comcast channel have changed to TS/MPEG4. These problems NEVER show up in PS mode transfers. When it was possible, I have downloaded the same program from the Tivo both ways (kmttg). The PS download and the decrypted version are both flawless; The TS download ALWAYS has pixelation/dropouts in the .tivo file, prior to decryption

All of this has led to my current working hypothesis - the problem seems to have it roots in the Tivo TS Muxer, which does not seem to work properly. (The Tivo Muxer continues to work fine, but only works on PS files).

I would appreciate any thoughts you or others may have on this


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Are you running the newest version of TiVo Desktop? You need the newest version to ensure uncorrupted decryption of MPEG4 .tivo files.
> 
> If you are and still see the corruption then it's the file itself. I know there is some issue with some Comcast channels not playing properly on a Mini due to some weird encoding they're using. Maybe that same thing effects PC transfers?


I have TD 2.8.3 installed. Is there a newer version? More importantly, is there a newer version of TivoDirectShowFilter.dll?

I see "glitches" or jumps all the time in my TS downloads. I use VRD to decrypt.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Which version of VRD? We changed the TiVo reader a little in v5 to help with an issue with glitches. The change was not back ported to Plus or any of the earlier versions of TVSuite.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

SlimTrigger said:


> I have been running Desktop version 2.8.2. Have just discovered a 2.8.3, will install and see what happens. If there is a newer version than that, please advise (including where I would find it!)
> In the month since my last post, I have tried a zillion different approaches to avoid the pixelation and dropouts. Here is where things stand for me:
> 1. All my comments apply to movies recorded on a TiVo Bolt, and the movies are recorded from Comcast.
> 2. The problem applies whenever the program is MPEG4, and can ONLY be downloaded in TS mode.
> ...


Try 2.8.3, it might help. Although it could be a TiVo issue too. I remember there was a thread somewhere about how the Mini is unable to play some Comcast MPEG4 channels and TiVoMargret replied that there is something unusual about the encoding on those channels that is tripping up the hardware inside the Mini. Perhaps the same encoding parameters are screwing up the TS muxer and causing the glitches you're seeing.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Which version of VRD? We changed the TiVo reader a little in v5 to help with an issue with glitches. The change was not back ported to Plus or any of the earlier versions of TVSuite.


V5


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Next time you run into this try using DirectShow Dump to decrypt the file and see if it has a glitch in the same spot. If it does then it's in the original file and there is nothing we can do about it. If it doesn't let me know and I can look into it and see what VRD is doing wrong.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I have always thought that the problem was in the TiVo code. Saw a glitch in last night's "Timeless". Decrypted again using DSD and glitch is still there, in the same spot. However, if I d/l again, glitch is gone, at least from that spot. Probably some kind of weird timing problem with the transfer code on the TiVo.

It would probably be possible to create an edited recording w/o glitches using 2 (or more) downloads but it would require way more time and effort than I'm willing to expend.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Just pulled down two movies using Desktop 2.8.3. No improvement, still have the glitches.
I don't think it matters which software you use to download the .tivo file to PC, that .tivo file will have glitches due to the Tivo TS Muxer being used by all of those programs (including web interface). Since the glitch is already there before you decrypt, it is always there after you decrypt as well.
Using VideoRedo Quick Fix on the downloaded .tivo file (prior to decryption) does a pretty good job of removing the glitches, but does so by removing out-of-sync frames, so then you get skips, but the glitches are much reduced.
I'm afraid that the only real solution is for Tivo to fix their Tivo TS muxer....I wonder if they have any inclination to do so.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

SlimTrigger said:


> Just pulled down two movies using Desktop 2.8.3. No improvement, still have the glitches.
> I don't think it matters which software you use to download the .tivo file to PC, that .tivo file will have glitches due to the Tivo TS Muxer being used by all of those programs (including web interface). Since the glitch is already there before you decrypt, it is always there after you decrypt as well.
> Using VideoRedo Quick Fix on the downloaded .tivo file (prior to decryption) does a pretty good job of removing the glitches, but does so by removing out-of-sync frames, so then you get skips, but the glitches are much reduced.
> I'm afraid that the only real solution is for Tivo to fix their Tivo TS muxer....I wonder if they have any inclination to do so.


Since Ira Bahr said that TiVo no longer supports TiVo<->PC transfer, I doubt that this will be fixed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> I have always thought that the problem was in the TiVo code. Saw a glitch in last night's "Timeless". Decrypted again using DSD and glitch is still there, in the same spot. However, if I d/l again, glitch is gone, at least from that spot. Probably some kind of weird timing problem with the transfer code on the TiVo.
> 
> It would probably be possible to create an edited recording w/o glitches using 2 (or more) downloads but it would require way more time and effort than I'm willing to expend.


Are your files H.264 too?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Are your files H.264 too?


Some are but "Timeless" is not one of them.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So it's just a general TS issue and not specific to H.264 then. Interesting. There is really no way to know for sure if it's the encryption or the muxing because without decrypting the file first the data is just junk. TiVo applies the encryption and remuxes to the desired format as the file is being transferred so it really could be either one.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> So it's just a general TS issue and not specific to H.264 then. Interesting. There is really no way to know for sure if it's the encryption or the muxing because without decrypting the file first the data is just junk. TiVo applies the encryption and remuxes to the desired format as the file is being transferred so it really could be either one.


For what it's worth, playback of these files from the TiVo is flawless. Also, downloading to a tablet using the TiVo Android app also results in flawless playback. Don't know if that info provides any further clues here?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Just further proves the point. On the TiVo itself the streams are stored differently and the mobile download/stream feature transcodes the video and then converts to a format called HLS, which technically uses the TS format but uses different encryption and breaks the files in to 10 second chunks, so pretty different from what the PC download thing does.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Appreciate the enlightenment Dan203!

Just to share, I seem to get the best results via the following:
1. Download when TiVo is least active
2. Download the TiVo file using Archivo (it downloads more slowly than kmttg or TiVo Desktop, which somehow seems to help)
3. Use VideoRedo, perform Quick Stream Fix on the .tivo file, output file profile is H.264 M2TS
4. Then do further video editing as needed on the .m2ts file, using a variety of products

This generally eliminates the glitches with frame deletions at tolerable levels. YMMV. Would be keen to hear of others' methods and results


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Others have said that if you make sure there are no scheduled recordings happening and you put TiVo in standby mode before transferring that it helps reduce glitches due to TS TiVo downloads.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Others have said that if you make sure there are no scheduled recordings happening and you put TiVo in standby mode before transferring that it helps reduce glitches due to TS TiVo downloads.


While it may reduce them, it doesn't eliminate them. I know this because that's exactly what I do.

Unfortunately, there's no way to eliminate *all* other activity.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Weird tha their muxer would be susceptible to realtime CPU usage. Not sure how that could actually matter at all. Unless it has something to do with their special file system.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Does network speed matter? Like if you purposely throttled the download to 10mbps is it less likely to have a glitch?


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> Does network speed matter? Like if you purposely throttled the download to 10mbps is it less likely to have a glitch?


Well, it seems to matter in my case, although nothing seems to eliminate all glitches. When I download with kmttg the speed is generally above 170mbps, while with Archivo it is generally around 25mbps. Archivo ends up with less glitches. In both cases, I am talking download of .tivo file.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There are programs that allow you to throttle bandwidth to certain applications, like netlimiter or netbalancer. Maybe if you slowed down the download even more you could elminate the glitches?


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> There are programs that allow you to throttle bandwidth to certain applications, like netlimiter or netbalancer. Maybe if you slowed down the download even more you could elminate the glitches?


Happy to give that a try, will need to wait until the weekend to undertake then get back with a post


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

I've been having a lot of problems with this too. I thought maybe it was because I updated my kmttg recently, which had not been updated in a while. Video has either stuttering audio, freezes the video player so the controls don't work, or has good sized chunks where it plays super slow with completely gray blocky video and no audio. I am a complete novice with kmttg, and have tried tweaking all the settings mentioned in these threads. Is there a way in kmttg to see which videos HAVE to use transport stream? If that is a major part of the problem I could just not use it for things that don't need it. I haven't tried making sure nothing is recording and the main Roamio is in standby before transferring yet. Everything always plays fine on the Roamio Plus and Minis.

I wonder if the issues with the muxing discussed above is also why streaming in house through the Tivo online website works so horribly for me, but everything plays wonderfully through the mobile apps. I have tried everything possible to troubleshoot that for over a year and it is too frustrating to even try anymore. Other people don't seem to have problems though. Maybe it's the combination of how my local Comcast handles the encrypting and how the Tivo prepares the recording for transferring or streaming to a computer.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Could be H.264 channels. Did your cable company recently start usingH.264 for some channels? (aka MPEG-4)


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

So - after trying a few experiments with different download speeds, I don't think the download speed makes any difference. I may have fooled myself into thinking that previously, partly because I had tried so many combinations to try to get to the best ultimate files.
Here are a few things I have learned. I took a (limited) sample of three movie files saved on the TiVo, all H.264 ts (MPEG-4), downloaded from Comcast
For all three movies, I downloaded via (1) TiVo desktop, (2) kmttg, (3) Archivo. The size of the downloaded .tivo file was exactly the same across all three programs. Also, all downloads had pixelations/glitches - but not in exactly the same locations, and not for the same duration.
I converted the .tivo files to H.264 ts files using (1)VideoRedo (2)kmttg tivolibre, (3)Archivo. Note: I did not perform all possible combinations. I did try tivolibre both with and without DirectShow compatibilty option, but the results were so similar that I am only including the "without" results.










Note that in all cases, the output from running VideoRedo Quick Fix always has eliminated the pixelation/glitches that were present in the input file, at the cost of eliminating frames, thus creating skips in the program.

My preliminary conclusions also reflect the results I have seen visually.
1. If I decrypt/convert the .tivo file to an H.264 ts file using VideoRedo QuickFix, the number of corrupted frames to be eliminated stays really very small - in each case, the eliminated frames total less than one minute of the movie. The results do not vary much no matter which program I use to download the .tivo file.
2. If I decrypt/convert using TivoLibre, it does not appear that TivoLibre tries to "fix" the .tivo file in any way, as the time length of the file is not changed in the process. However, when I then run VideoRedo on the .ts file, it corrects a very large amount of errors, to the point where the file is reduced by several minutes, which results in "gaps" more than small "skips" in the played back movie.
This is consistent with what I have seen, which is - that any corruption in the downloaded .tivo file is greatly magnified in the .ts file created by TivoLibre.
3. If I decrypt/convert using Archivo (archiving directly to a .ts file), the file first downloads, then automatically goes into Repair mode. As shown above, the final (repaired) .ts file is, once again, significantly shorter timewise than the original .tivo file, with the resultant "gaps" is playback. I suspect this means that Archivo and TivoLibre processes for decrypt/encode are fairly similar.

So - While still not getting excellent downloads on H.264 ts files, I can get livable results by downloading .tivo files from any of the three software packages, but doing the decrypt/encode to H.264 ts files by using VideoRedo Quick Fix.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I always use kmttg TS downloads + VRD QSfix, and there are slight differences in the corruption depending on whether the source is MPEF2 or H.264. For MPEG, I get "garblng". For H.264, I get jumps. Never see more than a second or so at a time.

I recently had one MPEG2 recording that simply would not download in TS.

For MPEG2, I have a choice - d/l in TS and put up with the occasional glitches or d/l in PS and get garbled captions. I have chosen the former.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Ok so if the download speed does not matter then I wonder why stopping recordings and putting the TiVo into standby has any effect? Seems like if it were a resource issue a slower download would have a similar effect.

In VideoReDo we use a special mode of the TiVo DirectShow filter that works a little different. We discovered a while back that occasionally the filter can hit a glitch that will cause it to stop decrypting frames until it hits a new GOP, which can result in a big chunk of corruption. We then discovered another mode available in the COM interface which is able to recover more quickly from these glitches and results in less frames being removed. That's likely why your VideoReDo decrypted files end up with less of the file being removed.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Ok so if the download speed does not matter then I wonder why stopping recordings and putting the TiVo into standby has any effect? Seems like if it were a resource issue a slower download would have a similar effect.


Actually, I was surprised by the initial report of download speed having any effect. I suspect it's more a problem of the TS muxing process getting interrupted at the wrong moment(s) and the process getting "confused". Maybe losing part of the buffer, either input or output.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Has anyone tried putting the Tivo & PC on a network by themselves to isolate the devices from other network traffic?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

reneg said:


> Has anyone tried putting the Tivo & PC on a network by themselves to isolate the devices from other network traffic?


Buy a better router. I have 14 wired & wireless devices on my network. That includes PC, Laptop, AVR, TV(s), Roamio(2), Mini(2), and a printer. Those are always on, then add some other devices like a Blu-ray and Roku 3.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I tried both download speed throttling and putting TiVo in standby mode. Neither had any positive effects for reducing glitches. The only thing standby seemed to accomplish was to speed up transfers. About 20 downloads of the same show for all kinds of combinations of standby, no standby, speed throttling etc. All had corruption points in different spots according to tivolibre -d option. There wasn't a single download with no glitch at all. But at least to me VRD does a great job of cleaning it up such that I rarely notice any problems for decrypted shows.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Buy a better router. I have 14 wired & wireless devices on my network. That includes PC, Laptop, AVR, TV(s), Roamio(2), Mini(2), and a printer. Those are always on, then add some other devices like a Blu-ray and Roku 3.


It's not about the router. It's about the Tivo. Eliminate a potential point of contention, Tivo servicing seemingly benign network communications from other devices.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

moyekj said:


> I tried both download speed throttling and putting TiVo in standby mode. Neither had any positive effects for reducing glitches. The only thing standby seemed to accomplish was to speed up transfers. About 20 downloads of the same show for all kinds of combinations of standby, no standby, speed throttling etc. All had corruption points in different spots according to tivolibre -d option. There wasn't a single download with no glitch at all. But at least to me VRD does a great job of cleaning it up such that I rarely notice any problems for decrypted shows.


Consistent with my experience. I went off on a slight tangent, to see if it matters how busy the TiVo is at the time of downloading. Downloaded to .tivo file via kmttg, then converted to H.264 ts via VRD Quick Fix.

Length of TiVo file = 1:52:00 (every time)
Download 1: TiVo recording a show, playing a recorded show and downloading .tivo file. Length of ts file = 1:51:15
Download 2: TiVo playing a recorded show and downloading .tivo file. Length of ts file = 1:51:19
Download 3: TiVo simply streaming off Comcast and downloading .tivo file. Length of ts file = 1:51:23

Suggests that there are less corrupt frames for VRD to eliminate when TiVo is less busy with other functions when downloading. But, of course, even under best conditions I still lose 37 seconds.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The reported numbers not withstanding, I doubt very seriously if you're actually missing 37 seconds.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

lpwcomp said:


> The reported numbers not withstanding, I doubt very seriously if you're actually missing 37 seconds.


Can you please explain why you say that?


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

I think 37 seconds seems plausible. I do not have videoredo, so was not running any of the fixes through that. But the glitches I was seeing were definitely way more than a few frames, there were 2-3 good sized chunks corrupted in a 1 hour show. I'm still not totally able to isolate what the problem is for me. I don't think it's just the mpeg-4 shows, as many are from broadcast networks with higher Mbps. Does kmttg have a way to display which files on the tivo are mpeg 2 and which are mpeg4?

I think I figured out one thing though. I was never able to get DirectShowDump to work, even though I had an old Tivo Desktop install. Something must have been goofed up with the install when I went from Windows 7 to Windows 10. I was able to get it to un-install successfully and reinstalled and now I can try using DirectShowDump instead of TivoLibre on Transport Stream transfers and see if that makes a difference at all.

This is slightly annoying because I'm not even trying to archive shows. I just want to watch them on my computer in a different room on the same wired network as the Tivo. That should work great using the Tivo Online website. But, it works horribly, which is why I'm resorting to transferring shows to my computer.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

How many frames removed does VRD report? That's the important part. For there to be 37 seconds missing it would have had to remove 2,218 video frames for a 720p video. (59.94fps)

If it's not that high then there could be a transmission error that caused the PTS values to jump. TS files don't actually have a length stored anywhere, so they way VRD (and other programs) determine the length is by looking at the time stamps of the first few frames, then seeking to the end and looking at the time stamps of the last few frames, and then calculating the difference to determine the length. But if there is a jump in the time stamps in the middle, or a big chunk of the video missing, then that length will be inaccurate. In that case you could run QSF and have it report 0 frames removed and the length would still change.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I have never seen more than a few seconds *total *gone from a 2 hour show. I'm not talking about comparing reported times, I'm talking about watching the edited video.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> I have never seen more than a few seconds *total *gone from a 2 hour show. I'm not talking about comparing reported times, I'm talking about watching the edited video.


 Agreed. That's the only reliable indicator. I base it on having watched a download and I have yet to see any significant skips or missing pieces of video. I do notice a small glitch here and there (probably missing frames) once in a while, but few and far between. I don't think the reported total time by various tools is accurate as Dan would confirm - they are just estimates based on looking at initial and final portions of the video.
For those not using VRD to clean things up perhaps the problems are more significant with audio sync issues, etc.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Appreciate all comments above. My overall point was that there seems to be less corruption from the download of the .tivo file when you minimize the other activities of the TiVo. Every little bit helps.
Using my most effective approach, the average is approximately 0.1% of the video frames removed by VRD, and the time reduced by 0.4% to 0.6%. I realize that does not nearly compute with a 59.94 fps, likely for the inaccuracies cited above in computing total time.
I will tell you though - if you refer back to my earlier table setting out results of trying various approaches to work around the issue, those files that come out several minutes short (e.g. using TivoLibre for decrypt/encode) show major dropouts and freezes (far more than in the downloaded .tivo file), which is what got most of us jumping in to this discussion in the first place. For me, VRD clearly saves the day.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

Now that I got my Tivo Desktop install fixed and was able to play the .tivo files on my computer, I can see what you are talking about now. The very brief error in a .tivo file does create a WAY longer corrupted section in the decrypted .ts file. In a one hour long program there were two corrupted areas in the .ts file. I rewound them to mark down the exact time stamp and duration. One totally messed up 26 seconds of the video playback, the second a full 41 seconds was impacted. It wasn't just freezing playback for that length of time. The video during that time was completely unwatchable, but totally fine in the original .tivo file. When I went to the same spots in the .tivo video to find the errors they were both just minor blips lasting just fraction of a second.

I probably could just watch the .tivo files without converting them now, but I can only get them to play in Windows Media Player. I don't think there is a way to view captions with that method and no simple way to skip past commercials either.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

What are you using to create the .ts file?


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

I'm using the decrypt option in kmttg. I tried running it multiple ways on the same .tivo file.
1. using directshow dump instead of tivo decode
2. using tivolibre instead of tivodecode *with* the directshow compatibility mode checked also
3. using tivolibre instead of tivodecode *without* the directshow compatibility mode checked

The first two methods created the large blocks of corrupted video I explained in my previous post. The third method was a little different in that once it hit the bad part it didn't get all gray and blocky, but the rest of the video from that point on was really choppy and the audio and video were completely out of sync.

Using the TS mode should work to transfer both mpeg2 and mpeg4 correct?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

That's why you need to use VideoRedo QS Fix to fix issues in the decrypted .ts file.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

moyekj said:


> That's why you need to use VideoRedo QS Fix to fix issues in the decrypted .ts file.


What I don't understand is why the .tivo files play mostly OK using WMP. Does it use something other than the DirectShowFilter to decrypt?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

As I mentioned above the DirectShow filter supports two modes. One of the modes has an issue that when it runs in to a glitch it will stop decrypting until the next GOP. That can turn a minor glitch into several seconds of error. I assume DSD uses the bad mode that's why it has an issue.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Makes sense. Guess that's why I really don't have any big issues since I decrypt/qsfix with VRD.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Years ago I wrote a programe (before DSD even) that could decrypt .tivo files using basically the same method WMP uses to play a .tivo file. I never released it becuase I was asked not to by TiVo's legal team.  Maybe I should dust it off now that they obviously don't care anymore. 

The way mine works is different then DSD and VideoReDo. I wrote a DirectShow filter that is derived from the Microsoft Dump filter, but works in pull/async mode instead of push mode. This makes it so it can be connected directly to the TiVo filter in a DirectShow graph and litterally just dumps the output from the TiVo filter to a file. DSD and VideoReDo both exploit an interface of the TiVo filter that allows it to be treated like a file reader. But as I mentioned above when you're using it that way there are two modes and one of them has an issue that can cause much more corruption then you see when simply playing the file in WMP. 

If I can dig up the source code maybe I'll look in to what it would take to get it going again.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

I don't have VideoReDo, so I can't use that option. I keep hoping that the Tivo online website will get fixed so that I don't have to bother at all with transferring and converting the files just to watch them once and delete them. Tivo should just pay all you guys big bucks for your pc software, since they don't have anything workable themselves. Kmttg has been invaluable for fixing problems in the todo list caused by the bad rovi guide data. Finding the problems and fixing them using the Tivo website or software on the box itself is a slow frustrating process. I haven't even tried using it for cutting commercials or auto skip yet either.


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## ***mike212*** (Feb 26, 2017)

I have been recording video for may years. My first TV tuner card was a Hauppauge that recorded analog, then a digital Hauppauge card when Comcast switched to digital, then a Ceton Infinitv 4 when Comcast encrypted most of their channels, and now I switched to Tivo, saving money in the long run by not renting Comcast set top boxes. I've only had the Tivo Bolt for less than a month and have started to try to download movies I have recorded on my Tivo Bolt, and have run into the same problems encountered in this thread. Small glitches in the .TiVo files downloaded by kmttg or Archivo or Tivo desktop get magnified when they are converted to a .ts file. One small glitch in the .TiVo files equates to 10's of seconds of missing video. I have a free trial of Videoredo that I am now using to run QS Fix, and then convert that file to a .ts format. This reduces the problem to approximately 200 to 400 frames, and the result while not what I would like makes the video watchable, and so here is my question. I see that kmttg has a QS Fix utility, but that operates after the conversion to a .ts file, which does not help since it needs to run on the .TiVo file first, is there any way for this utility to run on the .TiVo file first.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

***mike212*** said:


> I see that kmttg has a QS Fix utility, but that operates after the conversion to a .ts file, which does not help since it needs to run on the .TiVo file first, is there any way for this utility to run on the .TiVo file first.


 In config--VideoRedo enable option to decrypt using VideoRedo.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

***mike212*** said:


> I have been recording video for may years. My first TV tuner card was a Hauppauge that recorded analog, then a digital Hauppauge card when Comcast switched to digital, then a Ceton Infinitv 4 when Comcast encrypted most of their channels, and now I switched to Tivo, saving money in the long run by not renting Comcast set top boxes. I've only had the Tivo Bolt for less than a month and have started to try to download movies I have recorded on my Tivo Bolt, and have run into the same problems encountered in this thread. Small glitches in the .TiVo files downloaded by kmttg or Archivo or Tivo desktop get magnified when they are converted to a .ts file. One small glitch in the .TiVo files equates to 10's of seconds of missing video. I have a free trial of Videoredo that I am now using to run QS Fix, and then convert that file to a .ts format. This reduces the problem to approximately 200 to 400 frames, and the result while not what I would like makes the video watchable, and so here is my question. I see that kmttg has a QS Fix utility, but that operates after the conversion to a .ts file, which does not help since it needs to run on the .TiVo file first, is there any way for this utility to run on the .TiVo file first.


I don't believe there is any way for that qsfix to run on an encrypted file.

VRD uses its qsfix to decrypt so no reason to run it separately.


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## ***mike212*** (Feb 26, 2017)

Thank you, I understand now, I was using VRD's QS Fix tool on the .Tivo file and then using kmttg to decrypt the new .Tivo file. Your saying if you use VRD to decrypt the .Tivo file it automatically runs the QS Fix tool before the actual decrypt. Thanks


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

***mike212*** said:


> Thank you, I understand now, I was using VRD's QS Fix tool on the .Tivo file and then using kmttg to decrypt the new .Tivo file. Your saying if you use VRD to decrypt the .Tivo file it automatically runs the QS Fix tool before the actual decrypt. Thanks


You misunderstand. It's not running qsfix then decrypting. It's decrypting on the fly as it reads the file using the TiVo DirectShow filter, which is why you need at least a partial install of TiVo Desktop.


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## ***mike212*** (Feb 26, 2017)

Thanks


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah even though the resulting file is a .tivo it's still decrypted. The only part that remains encrypted after running it through QSF is the header where the metadata is stored. The actual video data is decrypted.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah even though the resulting file is a .tivo it's still decrypted. The only part that remains encrypted after running it through QSF is the header where the metadata is stored. The actual video data is decrypted.


 What I get is a .ts file with no metadata. I download in transport stream format and get a (presumably)encrypted .tivo file. Then qsfix runs against that file. Are you talking about what happens if you combine download & decrypt?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> What I get is a .ts file with no metadata. I download in transport stream format and get a (presumably)encrypted .tivo file. Then qsfix runs against that file. Are you talking about what happens if you combine download & decrypt?


 There's an option in VideoRedo itself to "save as" where you have option to save as a .TiVo file. In that case you get what Dan describes - unencrypted video with header metadata.


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## ssobol (Jan 29, 2005)

All my recordings made since I changed my Series 2 HD to Tivo Bolt have at least one section of dropouts/corruption after transferring to PC. I watch most shows from my Tivo on a laptop after conversion through VideoReDo because I travel a lot for work. The Series 2 HD recordings did not present any problems. When running VRD Quickfix it is not uncommon to see 2-3K frames removed. If a file contains a corruption and I try to use VRD to cut it, VRD will usually crash when transcoding the output file.

My Series 2 HD worked better than my Bolt does.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ssobol said:


> All my recordings made since I changed my Series 2 HD to Tivo Bolt have at least one section of dropouts/corruption after transferring to PC. I watch most shows from my Tivo on a laptop after conversion through VideoReDo because I travel a lot for work. The Series 2 HD recordings did not present any problems. When running VRD Quickfix it is not uncommon to see 2-3K frames removed. If a file contains a corruption and I try to use VRD to cut it, VRD will usually crash when transcoding the output file.
> 
> My Series 2 HD worked better than my Bolt does.


2-3K frames? That's too many. There are usually only 30-60 frames per second of video. So that means you're losing over a minute of content. Does the recording have an error when played on the TiVo or only when transferred to a PC?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

2 things. 

1. I've seen 30-40 seconds variance in the duration of multiple downloads of the same recording after qsfix.

2. There's no such thing as a "Series 2 HD". It's either a Series 3 or it's not HD . And neither one supports TS downloads.


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## SlimTrigger (Feb 8, 2016)

If you go back a bit in this thread to the posts in February 2017, I believe Dan203 enlightened us on a very important point - that the TiVo does not store files in TiVo format, and when you download files to a PC using any of the various front-ends (TiVo desktop, kmmtg and Archivo, to name three), it is still the TiVo unit that does the initial recode from its internal format to a .tivo file. When the source program was in TS format, there were always some corrupted frames in the initial recode.
We were able to get better results (less corruption in the file) by making multiple attempts at downloading from the TiVo, trying different front-ends, and choosing the best recode format (for me it was from a .tivo file to a H.264 m2ts file.
In the past three months or so, the results I have been able to obtain have deteriorated, and the deterioration is very consistent. I don't know if this condition is because of a change in the source program (delivered by Comcast), or because TiVo has changef something in its software which makes for more errors in the initial recode to a .tivo file. The deterioration is now consistent across all the permutations I try, and multiple attempts at downloading the same program now give identical results in terms of number of corrupted frames.
Prior to this deterioration (and again, this is when source program is in TS format), in a movie with roughly 400,000 frames I would experience roughly 100 to 200 corrupted frames. Now, in a movie with 400,000 frames , I get 700 to 900 corrupted frames.
No change in any of my equipment or setup, and as before playback directly from TiVo shows no corruption. This is what leads me to believe it's either a change in what Comcast delivers in TS format (and my TiVo unit struggles to recode), or TiVo has changed the internal software which recodes to .tivo format and creates more corrupted frames.
Anybody else having this newly worse problem and/or have ideas on what might help?
Thanks to all!


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## cubdukat (Nov 15, 2015)

SlimTrigger said:


> If you go back a bit in this thread to the posts in February 2017, I believe Dan203 enlightened us on a very important point - that the TiVo does not store files in TiVo format, and when you download files to a PC using any of the various front-ends (TiVo desktop, kmmtg and Archivo, to name three), it is still the TiVo unit that does the initial recode from its internal format to a .tivo file. When the source program was in TS format, there were always some corrupted frames in the initial recode.
> We were able to get better results (less corruption in the file) by making multiple attempts at downloading from the TiVo, trying different front-ends, and choosing the best recode format (for me it was from a .tivo file to a H.264 m2ts file.
> In the past three months or so, the results I have been able to obtain have deteriorated, and the deterioration is very consistent. I don't know if this condition is because of a change in the source program (delivered by Comcast), or because TiVo has changef something in its software which makes for more errors in the initial recode to a .tivo file. The deterioration is now consistent across all the permutations I try, and multiple attempts at downloading the same program now give identical results in terms of number of corrupted frames.
> Prior to this deterioration (and again, this is when source program is in TS format), in a movie with roughly 400,000 frames I would experience roughly 100 to 200 corrupted frames. Now, in a movie with 400,000 frames , I get 700 to 900 corrupted frames.
> ...


Sadly this is one of those instances where both TiVo and/or Comcast will point the finger at the other guy and swear it's their fault, but neither will rectify the problem.

I've been having the same problem with increasing frequency since both our NBC and ABC affiliates in Chicago went to H.264. Now every time I record a show, I have a 50/50 chance it'll come out completely corrupted and unusable. It's especially lamentable what happened to NBC because they went from 1080i MPEG-2 with an average bitrate of 12.5 megs to bitrate-starved 720p with an average of 3-3.5 megs, at best. ABC didn't suffer as much, since they've always been bitrate-starved (even OTA).

I don't know if it would be possible to implement an TS-compatible variation of the "Resume Downloads" function, but I think it would probably help because I think it has something to do with the delay the Bolt seems to have in tuning in H.264 channels. MPEG-2 is almost instantaneous, but with H.264, I've noticed a 2-3 second delay, as if it's having problems locking on.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

I don't have any great insight, just an observation as to the "state of the art". My bottom line is that things are just too complicated.

Look at H.264: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC - Wikipedia

Imagine having to implement that. Imagine implementing it in a combination of hardware and software. Now imagine the inevitable bugs in hardware, with software workarounds. With buggy software on top of that.

Now imagine two different H.264 implementations, viz. cable company encoder and TiVo decoder. What are the odds that they will perfectly interoperate?

Overlay that with whatever buggy "magic" TiVo does to the bits to turn them into a .tivo TS and it's a wonder that anything works at all.

Which is a crying shame. High Definition was sold to the public as something which would provide us with wonderful, high quality television. The current reality is the exact opposite of that hype.


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## cubdukat (Nov 15, 2015)

Since I last posted on this thread, I have established two workarounds. I discovered that the file corruption seemed to be with the higher-numbered duplicates Comcast has initiated. I have since corrected my One Passes to record on the lower-numbered channels instead, and in the case of our NBC affiliate, I have also brought out my old ATSC OTA tuner. That way, I can get all of NBC's programming in MPEG-2 and 1080i, the way it was before Comcast screwed everything up. Fortunately, right now only ABC and NBC are downconverted, but it won't be long before CBS and Fox follow suit, and both of them have very high bitrates in MPEG-2.

I'm also debating whether or not to upgrade to the Bolt Vox, in the hopes that maybe it's the tuners in the first-gen Bolt that are causing the problem. Besides, I've had the Bolt about two or three years; it's just time.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

cubdukat said:


> I'm also debating whether or not to upgrade to the Bolt Vox, in the hopes that maybe it's the tuners in the first-gen Bolt that are causing the problem. Besides, I've had the Bolt about two or three years; it's just time.


I really doubt there have been any significant changes from the Bolt to the Bolt VOX; I'm pretty sure the remote is the only difference.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

cubdukat said:


> Since I last posted on this thread, I have established two workarounds. I discovered that the file corruption seemed to be with the higher-numbered duplicates Comcast has initiated.


Interesting. I have two Bolts next to each other and the one setup to use the higher channels has a very low success rate using KMTTG lately and has always had more problems.

My recent work around has been to go back to TiVoDesktop and download using that.

The TiVo app directly to my iPhone works consistently too.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

ADent said:


> ...I have two Bolts next to each other and the one setup to use the higher channels has a very low success rate using KMTTG lately and has always had more problems...



Are the TiVos wired or wireless?
.
How much free HDD space is available on each TiVo?
.
MPEG-2 or H.264 channels?
.
Transport Stream or Program Stream transfer protocol?
.
If using Transport Stream, how are you monitoring TS Sync Errors?



ADent said:


> ...My recent work around has been to go back to TiVoDesktop and download using that...


All of the TiVo-to-PC transfer methods must use the same basic TiVo 'algorithms' so in that regard it doesn't matter which one you use.


ADent said:


> ...The TiVo app directly to my iPhone works consistently too.


No experience here...


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## rthurlow (Jan 21, 2004)

I just moved, and went from an OTA antenna to Comcast with a CableCARD (after the requisite couple of days to get the card activated properly), both with the same white Bolt. I did a test recording and transferred it in TS format ("TS downloads" checked) via kmttg. OMG - it was so hosed: Windows Media Center played a few seconds of video and a few minutes of audio with a black screen, and nothing for the rest of the 40 minutes. VideoRedo QuickStream Fix could not do anything with it, complaining about an "Audio Ring Buffer Overflow".

I downloaded the same show with "TS downloads" turned off to get a PS download, and all is well. Since I had used TS to get whole files instead of truncated ones when there were OTA signal dropouts, PS should be fine. I was worried Comcast might copy-protect the world or something, but it looks like I'm good.

Take care,
Rob T


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

rthurlow said:


> I just moved, and went from an OTA antenna *to Comcast with a CableCARD*... ...I did a test recording and *transferred it in TS format* ("TS downloads" checked) via kmttg. OMG - it was so hosed:
> 
> I downloaded the same show with "TS downloads" turned off to get a PS download, and all is well...


I thought Comcast was big on H.264? [Check a few channels in Diagnostics]

As long as your shows are in MPEG-2 and you don't care about closed captions, PS 'Slow' File Transfers are fine...


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## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

Comcast in my area has all the local stations in MPEG-2 and all the other channels using H.264. Need to be conscience of which channel you are downloading.


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