# Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!



## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Just Curious about how many of us Want the Live guide Option back. 
Yes I think its a reasonable option that could be added easily enough. 

So lets find out How many of Us Want Live Guide Back!

Hail Hydra

Jack


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## HeadsUp7Up (Oct 28, 2014)

I asked for it in the wishlist thread that’s going on. The more I use it I think I can live without it but would definitely use it if it was there. My wife really likes it though so we’re going to hold off on upgrading our main box until we hear if it’s coming back or not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

I remember in the Hydra demo video, Margret said that they included the grid guide in Hydra because the MSOs asked them to. It would be nice if they would also include the live guide in Hydra because their retail customers asked them to.


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## longrider (Oct 26, 2017)

While I personally prefer the grid guide there is no reason not to have a choice.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

I can’t live without it, waiting on hearing back when I (and anyone else so inclined)will be able to uninstall Hydra.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

While others will see this as a dumb reason the lack of the Live Guide is why I am not using Hydra at this very moment. I can deal with bugs and quirks(Hydra issues topic) but I just can't sacrifice a feature that kept me using Tivo for all these years over just jumping to whatever DVR Comcast has had through the years as my main go to box. The fancy new appearance in Hydra is nice and all but at the end of the day I use my Tivo to find and record things to watch and the Live Guide works better for me in doing just that. I will gladly stay with the current UI over any new fancy update to keep it that way.


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## ffitzgerald39 (Apr 17, 2011)

Need live guide. I use my iPad for quick lookups. Much faster to use. Also want to get recordings stored on my computer. I can still get music and photos but no recordings?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

chrishicks said:


> While others will see this as a dumb reason the lack of the Live Guide is why I am not using Hydra at this very moment. I can deal with bugs and quirks(Hydra issues topic) but I just can't sacrifice a feature that kept me using Tivo for all these years over just jumping to whatever DVR Comcast has had through the years as my main go to box. The fancy new appearance in Hydra is nice and all but at the end of the day I use my Tivo to find and record things to watch and the Live Guide works better for me in doing just that. I will gladly stay with the current UI over any new fancy update to keep it that way.
> 
> You know, I decided to make the leap to Hydra thinking I could deal without a Live Guide and its brutal, you made a wise call.


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## Noelmel (Nov 6, 2014)

Never used the live guide... always grid. But they should at least make it an option in Hydra or combine the 2 because clearly alot of customers love it


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I can't live without it, waiting on hearing back when I (and anyone else so inclined)will be able to uninstall Hydra.


After 3 days with no live guide I have come to the same conclusion.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

Hydra consensus so far is not good.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Sparky1234 said:


> Hydra consensus so far is not good.


I would disagree


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

I think it’s good and I like just about everything about it except no Live Guide and a few minor annoyances.


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## mxfanatic (Jan 20, 2007)

I will get used to the grid guide, and it's better than on G3, but I really liked the live guide because of the long titles of the shows on NOW. It actually scrolled without a hitch as well.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

Changed my vote. Although I have tried it, I don't use the Live Guide but obviously many TiVo users have been using Live Guide for a long time. It should be an option for those who prefer it.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm surprised this many people use any guide. My house mostly watches recorded programs and uses the search functionality to find and record new shows. Paging through channels, times, etc, sounds inefficient.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

powrcow said:


> I'm surprised this many people use any guide. My house mostly watches recorded programs and uses the search functionality to find and record new shows. Paging through channels, times, etc, sounds inefficient.


Your method assumes you know what you are looking for. Looking through a guide is like looking at a restaurant menu to see what is available.

Many of us use both methods. Search when we know what we want, Guide when we are browsing for stuff.

Search limits your options.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

What's Search??? LOL. I only use search on the app and very rarely and only for future new series (if they are even there). I am simple. To me, the Tivo is mostly a very nice DVR. I know pretty much what I watch and they are mostly in my over 150 1P's.

And I absolutely HATE the grid...it's absurd!!!


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

I'm not missing the live guide yet. Is there another way to see everything that's coming up on a certain channel over the next 24 hours, on 1 screen ?


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

powrcow said:


> I'm surprised this many people use any guide. My house mostly watches recorded programs and uses the search functionality to find and record new shows. Paging through channels, times, etc, sounds inefficient.


Do you know how many times I've searched and no results came up, but the item I was searching for was in the guide?

Neither do I, I can't count that high.


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## cook (Aug 12, 2010)

I've been using Tivo live guide since series 2 and without it in Hydra it's the only thing holding me back from upgrading. I tried using grid guide on my Roamio pro for a couple days to see if the wife and I could get use to it and personally we much rather have Live guide. 
Really odd they didn't include it and until they do I'm sticking with gen3.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> I'm not missing the live guide yet. Is there another way to see everything that's coming up on a certain channel over the next 24 hours, on 1 screen ?


There does not appear to be. No search by channel either.

The closest is the down arrow that gives you tiles for a single channel but that is just the next couple of shows per button push.


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## bradroc (Jun 29, 2008)

I didn't realize how much I relied on the live guide functionality until I flipped my Roamio to the grid version as a test.

Most of my recordings are on sports networks and movie channels. Without the live guide it's much more time consuming to navigate a week or two ahead to see what games or films are coming up.

Really want to jump into Hydra, but like others on this thread, will be holding off until the live guide (or similar functionality) is added or at least announced as in development.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

bring it back NOW


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

What's Live Guide? Is that the one where you get a list of channels on the left, and when you select one, it shows you all its shows on the right? If so, that's what I use. I'd hate to lose it.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

hefe said:


> What's Live Guide? *Is that the one where you get a list of channels on the left, and when you select one, it shows you all its shows on the right? *If so, that's what I use. I'd hate to lose it.


Yep--8 hrs. of shows on a view, for the channel. Helpful, and a timesaver.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Yep.


it is criminal that they removed that for no reason
and no more PC to tivo transfers, or tivo to tivo transfers unless you go online

this is pathetic


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

tivoknucklehead said:


> it is criminal that they removed that for no reason
> and no more PC to tivo transfers, or tivo to tivo transfers unless you go online
> 
> this is pathetic


Criminal? Really?


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

stile99 said:


> Do you know how many times I've searched and no results came up, but the item I was searching for was in the guide?
> 
> Neither do I, I can't count that high.


I've never had that problem. Guess we search for different things.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

TonyD79 said:


> Search limits your options.


Which was my point. TiVo means I don't have to browse around. It records what I want, then I watch that. Search is a fast way to create a OnePass for a show I hear about.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

powrcow said:


> Which was my point. TiVo means I don't have to browse around. It records what I want, then I watch that. Search is a fast way to create a OnePass for a show I hear about.


Which means you are limited. You have to know what you want.

Let's go to a restaurant. You "know what you want" so you don't look at the menu. Your friend looks at the menu and finds something new that you wish you had known about.

Do what you want but it seems silly to assume you know everything you ever want to watch and if it is even available.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

idksmy said:


> Criminal? Really?


I just find the old guide much easier to navigate and most agree with me, why get rid of it for no reason?
and if you use the transfer function daily like me, removing this feature is ridiculous


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

SugarBowl said:


> I'm not missing the live guide yet. Is there another way to see everything that's coming up on a certain channel over the next 24 hours, on 1 screen ?


There is one way to do it - through the TiVo App. Call up the guide, touch the channel and - VOILA! - Live Guide functionality. I realize it's not the same thing, but it's something.


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## jmerr74 (Nov 3, 2015)

It's been a tough transition for my wife. Personally, I miss the live guide. I also miss the three channel guide while watching Live TV. I mean pretty pictures are great and all, for the TV shows. However, if it is so laggy it brings the whole system to a screaming halt...

I honestly get that it's a "Beta Test", but as it stands now this should be considered more of an Alpha test. I would immediately roll back if I didn't lose my recordings.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Which means you are limited. You have to know what you want.
> 
> Let's go to a restaurant. You "know what you want" so you don't look at the menu. Your friend looks at the menu and finds something new that you wish you had known about.
> 
> Do what you want but it seems silly to assume you know everything you ever want to watch and if it is even available.


Isn't that what Suggestions are supposed to do?

And if search worked correctly, you could search using genres and find something new that way.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

The live guide for the Bolt looks ugly and half-baked. It looks like an afterthought. The Series 1 Tivo had a much more refined live guide, though I wish the background was more translucent and less transparent. It was difficult to read sometimes. But the Bolt's is a step backward and disappointing. In retrospect, maybe it was a sign of things to come.

The live guide is for people who love certain channels. The grid guide is for those who want to know what will be on soon across all the channels. I'm sure Tivo has data on how many people are using the live guide, and maybe it wasn't enough to justify its development in Hydra.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Isn't that what Suggestions are supposed to do?
> 
> And if search worked correctly, you could search using genres and find something new that way.


So you just let someone else decide for you. Based upon some suspect algorithm.

Okay. So the restaurant will just serve you what they want to.

Or just restrict you to one part of the menu.

Why would anyone want to limit themselves?


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

tivoknucklehead said:


> ...most agree with me, why get rid of it for no reason?


I disagree with your "most agree with me" statement.

TiVo knows exactly how many use the grid and how many use the live guide. The members of TCF are not the majority of TiVo users and the majority probably never switch from the default grid guide.

And they didn't get rid of it. They looked at existing usage data and decided to not put resources behind rewriting the live guide for gen4.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

JolDC said:


> *I disagree with your "most agree with me" statement*.
> 
> TiVo knows exactly how many use the grid and how many use the live guide. The members of TCF are not the majority of TiVo users and the majority probably never switch from the default grid guide.
> 
> And they didn't get rid of it. They looked at existing usage data and decided to not put resources behind rewriting the live guide for gen4.


the poll here says otherwise
and TCF users are important


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> So you just let someone else decide for you. Based upon some suspect algorithm.
> 
> Okay. So the restaurant will just serve you what they want to.
> 
> ...


Because the don't spend their whole life watching TV and/or find they can be happy with most any show in the categories they have come to like?

Regarding restaurants, most people I eat with are amazed how quick I pick something and don't worry about what else I might like. I tell them I like pretty much like everything so anything is fine, and I can not remember the last time I didn't enjoy a meal out and I eat out several times a week.

I really do feel sorry for those that are so picky about things that they spend most of there lives being unhappy with whatever, and/or fretting about getting it just right. While I can understand some of that for some things in life I am certainly not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about what I watch on TV, but do plead guilty, to some extend, when it comes to movies I watch in the theater.


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

tivoknucklehead said:


> the poll here says otherwise
> and TCF users are important


As you already know, the poll is mainly going to be answered by those who miss the live guide. And important or not, a few thousand "power" users in TCF can't offset the stats of a couple millions user data points from all users that TiVo can see.

I hope they add it back as an option, but too many here are acting like TiVo made this choice capriciously and some act like TiVo did it to personally slight them directly.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Because the don't spend their whole life watching TV and/or find they can be happy with most any show in the categories they have come to like?
> 
> Regarding restaurants, most people I eat with are amazed how quick I pick something and don't worry about what else I might like. I tell them I like pretty much like everything so anything is fine, and I can not remember the last time I didn't enjoy a meal out and I eat out several times a week.
> 
> I really do feel sorry for those that are so picky about things that they spend most of there lives being unhappy with whatever, and/or fretting about getting it just right. While I can understand some of that for some things in life I am certainly not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about what I watch on TV, but do plead guilty, to some extend, when it comes to movies I watch in the theater.


Okay. That is a load of nonsense. Who says anyone is being picky or is spending a ton of time? Don't make it out to be the Mideast Peace Accords. But to assume you know what you want to watch means you have no idea what you want to watch if you go in with only a pre-mindset, which strictly using search is. Even if you know that you like Show XYZ, how do you know to search for it on any given day. Say it is syndicated or you want to catch up on reruns. Do you search for every show you ever wanted to see or do you glance through a guide and say "Hey, channel JKL is rerunning XYZ! I haven't seen that in years!"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JolDC said:


> As you already know, the poll is mainly going to be answered by those who miss the live guide. And important or not, a few thousand "power" users in TCF can't offset the stats of a couple millions user data points from all users that TiVo can see.
> 
> I hope they add it back as an option, but too many here are acting like TiVo made this choice capriciously and some act like TiVo did it to personally slight them directly.


It's a religion. Don't bash your head in trying to make any sense of it.

A cult related to the one who said it was wrong to put a disk usage percentage on a DVR.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> The live guide for the Bolt looks ugly and half-baked.


Really? I didn't recall that and so just called it up--I don't see it as ugly or half-baked at all (albeit, TiVo's color choice and flatness makes it look a bit stark/garish). And certainly, at least to me, it looks better than the grid view, which looks crowded and squished together.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Oh, bring back the Live Guide as an option so we can all get on Hydra and work at making it better. 

And there will be less of a high pitched annoying noise (whine) on the forum.


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## SydniusToo (Aug 23, 2017)

compnurd said:


> I would disagree


Allow me to disdisagree.

Minis die daily. 'nuff said. Even for alpha software, that is unacceptable.
When they fix it, I'll love it mostly. The transparency on the playing bar is worth all the other odd design choices.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> But to assume you know what you want to watch means you have no idea what you want to watch...


Or it means I don't care that much and find any number of shows as acceptable as others and have no need for a huge selection of choices. But remember I was responding to your post that said:

"So you just let someone else decide for you. Based upon some suspect algorithm.

Okay. So the restaurant will just serve you what they want to.

Or just restrict you to one part of the menu.

*Why would anyone want to limit themselves?"*​
With the primary focus being the last line that I highlighted above, with my response being:
"Because the don't spend their whole life watching TV and/or find they can be happy with most any show in the categories they have come to like?"​If that doesn't make sense to you fine, but it is not a "load of nonsense", it is just a different view on the importance of what one watches.



TonyD79 said:


> Do you search for every show you ever wanted to see or do you glance through a guide and say "Hey, channel JKL is rerunning XYZ! I haven't seen that in years!"


I do neither, I setup season passes the few times a year the OTA Networks start new seasons via looking through the live guide at those times and then just watch something out of my recordings. That gives me more choices than I need or really want, with the most likely result being I just watch what ever is at the top my list.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Or it means I don't care that much and find any number of shows as acceptable as others and have no need for a huge selection of choices. But remember I was responding to your post that said:
> 
> "So you just let someone else decide for you. Based upon some suspect algorithm.
> 
> ...


Still nonsense. You made spending a minute or two looking to see what might be interesting into "spending their whole life." That is the nonsense. Anything you buy or select, you pick from what is available. Otherwise, you wind up brushing your teeth with shaving cream. But if you take that second to pick what you want from the array on your bathroom shelf, you are NOT "spending your whole life." The nonsense is that you took a small item and made it sound like it is the entire world.

So, you just make up your mind what you want to watch once a year? Good for you. You are still limiting your choices. Things change. They add stuff that you may not know about. Don't say you don't care what you watch. You are obviously spending time to set it up. What you are also doing is locking yourself in.

THAT is limiting yourself. And that is also nonsense. Because if you don't ever look, you don't actually know if you are watching what you want to see. You are only watching what you thought you wanted to see at one time and convincing yourself you are seeing all you ever want to see.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Still nonsense. You made spending a minute or two looking to see what might be interesting into "spending their whole life." That is the nonsense. Anything you buy or select, you pick from what is available. Otherwise, you wind up brushing your teeth with shaving cream. But if you take that second to pick what you want from the array on your bathroom shelf, you are NOT "spending your whole life." The nonsense is that you took a small item and made it sound like it is the entire world.
> 
> So, you just make up your mind what you want to watch once a year? Good for you. You are still limiting your choices. Things change. They add stuff that you may not know about. Don't say you don't care what you watch. You are obviously spending time to set it up. What you are also doing is locking yourself in.
> 
> THAT is limiting yourself. And that is also nonsense. Because if you don't ever look, you don't actually know if you are watching what you want to see. You are only watching what you thought you wanted to see at one time and convincing yourself you are seeing all you ever want to see.


You are amusing.

You posed the question: "Why would anyone want to limit themselves?" I gave you an answer, unfortunately the fact that some people (including me) have no problems "limiting themselves" when it comes to what we watch on TV and really are fine with watching anything within a broad category apparently just doesn't compute with you.

So just to be clear I intentionally severely limit what I watch on TV. To start I do not subscribe to any pay TV service and only watch what is available via OTA. I know I am good with most 1 hr. dramas so I just record them all, this provides way more TV than I am ever going to watch. Sure I end up liking some more than others and even delete a few one passes but in the end I have more than enough to watch that I do like.

My attitude is simple, it is only TV if I miss something I might like so what?

Just for amusement I will tell you a story about my mother, she decided to start getting DVDs/Blu-rays from the library, I asked her how she was picking the movies - she said I just started at the top - meaning the top shelf, she is going through movies in order - She does not care what movie she watches - when she goes back to the library she just picks the next one - because it doesn't matter to her that much what it is.


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## Johnwashere (Sep 17, 2005)

I've had tivo for 15+ years and on the new interface. I dont understand what the big deal about this live guide is? I am not even totally sure what it is, I have no issues with the new guide or the last guide setup. I actually like this new guide much better. People always just seem to complain with any big upgrade or change with any piece of tech...


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

The deal for me usually goes something like this:
"There's this show on Fox I wanted to watch and I forget what it's called, but I'll remember when I see it." 

So you can pull up Fox and then just scroll down quickly through days of show info until you find it. If you don't know the name of the show you are looking for, this was the easiest way to browse a station's worth of upcoming shows. 

Same for discovering movies, you could scroll through days worth of movies showing on Starz and set a bunch of them to record. It would take forever to do that in the grid guide.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I hardly ever use the Live Guide. I have 103 OP's and mostly use the grid guide to go day by day prime time to see if anything else to record. I start at Mon 8pm/9pm then skip to the next day, then skip and so on. I don't need to scroll thru hours and days of stuff for every channel.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

DancnDude said:


> The deal for me usually goes something like this:
> "There's this show on Fox I wanted to watch and I forget what it's called, but I'll remember when I see it."
> 
> So you can pull up Fox and then just scroll down quickly through days of show info until you find it. If you don't know the name of the show you are looking for, this was the easiest way to browse a station's worth of upcoming shows.
> ...


Movies was the big one for me. Just calling up HBO, MAX, Starz, HDNet Movies, Epix, etc. and scrolling through the next 14 days of what was available on each premium channel was very easy with Live Guide. I'll just do it through the app now I guess.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Johnwashere said:


> I've had tivo for 15+ years and on the new interface. I dont understand what the big deal about this live guide is? I am not even totally sure what it is, I have no issues with the new guide or the last guide setup. I actually like this new guide much better. People always just seem to complain with any big upgrade or change with any piece of tech...


Were you always a Grid Guide user? This is the Grid Guide prior to Hydra since you don't seem to know which is which and what you were using prior:










I have always been a Live Guide user which is like this:










For almost 15 years that is the guide I and others have used. It's one of the reasons why many of us stayed with Tivo over something else because we are accustomed to it. Once you start stripping away things that users are accustomed to that product no longer seems as attractive as it once did which is why I believe some people are upset of the lack of Live Guide(among other things) in Hydra.

I'll give a personal example of why I like the Live Guide. I have a Roamio and an X1. My Tivo is still running the old UI. My X1 has the fancy look with all the pictures and everything the same way Hydra does. The X1 has a Grid Guide while my Tivo still has the Live Guide. If I want to see what's on HBO today for the 12 hours I'm going to be gone I can do that by just bringing up HBO in the Live Guide and seeing the entire daily schedule in a single view. On my X1 I have to scroll and scroll and scroll some more because like the Grid Guide in Tivo the X1 only shows the next 2 hours at a time. The Live Guide provides less button clicks combined with more info which is a convenience for me and why I prefer it. It may sound trivial but to many of us it isn't.

Just because the Grid Guide works for some doesn't mean it works for all is all some of us are saying even if some get a bit extreme about it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Just for amusement I will tell you a story about my mother, she decided to start getting DVDs/Blu-rays from the library, I asked her how she was picking the movies - she said I just started at the top - meaning the top shelf, she is going through movies in order - She does not care what movie she watches - when she goes back to the library she just picks the next one - because it doesn't matter to her that much what it is.


Good story. Must be genetic. 

Peace.


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## TivoJD (Feb 8, 2005)

I personally like the grid guide better, if I want to scan HBO which includes 7 channels, I can fit all channels on screen and then just scroll right instead of having to look at each channel separately. It's all what you like, neither is better than the other. They both have their purposes.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> The deal for me usually goes something like this:
> "There's this show on Fox I wanted to watch and I forget what it's called, but I'll remember when I see it."
> 
> So you can pull up Fox and then just scroll down quickly through days of show info until you find it. If you don't know the name of the show you are looking for, this was the easiest way to browse a station's worth of upcoming shows.
> ...


You do know you can scroll to the right on the grid guide, correct?

As for movies, I don't think so. You have to do each channel (even if the same family like Starz!) to view the stuff. Set the grid so it shows 10 movie channels and you just zip through, seeing them all at once. I have five HD Starz! channels. If you only have one channel to look at, sure. But when you have to look at several, the Live Guide is actually slower.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> You do know you can scroll to the right on the grid guide, correct?
> 
> As for movies, I don't think so. You have to do each channel (even if the same family like Starz!) to view the stuff. Set the grid so it shows 10 movie channels and you just zip through, seeing them all at once. I have five HD Starz! channels. If you only have one channel to look at, sure. But when you have to look at several, the Live Guide is actually slower.


Yes you can scroll right but it takes forever to go through 24 hours of shows, let alone a couple of days. To most Live Guide fans, we would rather go channel by channel (even if it means going through quite a few channels) to see what's on. Every night I sit down to watch TV, I pull up the Live Guide and go out until the end of the guide (about 2 weeks) and see what's on prime time on the channels I watch most and look for any new shows or specials. On Mondays we receive the new listings which takes it out 2 Saturdays ahead--at that point I scan through all of my premiums for that weekend as new movies usually premiere on Fridays or Saturdays and I may catch something I don't have a wish list set up for. Trying to do that with Hydra was brutal.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Yes you can scroll right but it takes forever to go through 24 hours of shows, let alone a couple of days. To most Live Guide fans, we would rather go channel by channel (even if it means going through quite a few channels) to see what's on. Every night I sit down to watch TV, I pull up the Live Guide and go out until the end of the guide (about 2 weeks) and see what's on prime time on the channels I watch most and look for any new shows or specials. On Mondays we receive the new listings which takes it out 2 Saturdays ahead--at that point I scan through all of my premiums for that weekend as new movies usually premiere on Fridays or Saturdays and I may catch something I don't have a wish list set up for. Trying to do that with Hydra was brutal.


Do it your way but it does NOT take forever to scroll through the grid guide. You are just perpetuating the idea that you would rather do it the way you are used to than be efficient: "To most Live Guide fans, we would rather go channel by channel (even if it means going through quite a few channels)"

I have done exactly what you are saying with grid guides for years on a variety of systems. And if I see a movie I want to record that is on HBO and HBO West, with the grid guide, I can pick the showing I want so that it does not interfere with my viewing. Say a 1 am showing rather than a 10 pm. All on the same screen.

I love the rationalizations. Just like a religion. Reminds me of all the rationalizations on why Tivo should never have a disk space used indicator. Just as tortuous.

But I hope you get what you want so you can move forward. Good luck!


----------



## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Do it your way but it does NOT take forever to scroll through the grid guide. You are just perpetuating the idea that you would rather do it the way you are used to than be efficient: "To most Live Guide fans, we would rather go channel by channel (even if it means going through quite a few channels)"
> 
> I have done exactly what you are saying with grid guides for years on a variety of systems. And if I see a movie I want to record that is on HBO and HBO West, with the grid guide, I can pick the showing I want so that it does not interfere with my viewing. Say a 1 am showing rather than a 10 pm. All on the same screen.
> 
> ...


Its your opinion that the Grid Guide is more efficient for what I want to do, I disagree and think its inefficient.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Its your opinion that the Grid Guide is more efficient for what I want to do, I disagree and think its inefficient.


Efficiency can be measured. And you have to remove proficiency from the equation when you do.

I agree that if you have ONE movie channel you want to look at the Live Guide is probably more efficient but when you throw in multiples, there is no way it is. Especially if you want to adjust recording times like I gave the example.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Johnwashere said:


> I've had tivo for 15+ years and on the new interface. I dont understand what the big deal about this live guide is? I am not even totally sure what it is, I have no issues with the new guide or the last guide setup. I actually like this new guide much better. People always just seem to complain with any big upgrade or change with any piece of tech...


Everyone has personal preferences and some features matter to some people more than they do to others. So for some how the guide looks and operates is of high importance for others it isn't. Given that the UI including the Guide and it's data are a big part of the TiVo service we pay for I don't find it unusual that people have a desire for it to be what they want.

TiVo has wisely given us a choice stay with the current UI and it's features knowing it likely will not be improved/changed much from this point on or to upgrade to the new UI and enjoy the features and future improvements it brings. Thankfully we all get to way the +s & -s of each UI, to decide if we want to upgrade or not. For some no live guide is a big minus, for others it is irrelevant.

TiVo has also given us the opportunity to provide input, that may influence some of the new UI features as time goes on, so it would be foolish for people who would like some things to be changed - like having the Live Guide be added as an option, to not voice their desires. Now is the time.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Live guide is much faster, if it wasn't all us live guide fans would not be complaining. How would you feel if grid was removed instead of live guide. 

It's a fact the human eye and brain can scan one column much faster than several. 

But I don' t care anymore because I converted back to "Tivo".


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Efficiency can be measured. And you have to remove proficiency from the equation when you do.
> 
> I agree that if you have ONE movie channel you want to look at the Live Guide is probably more efficient but when you throw in multiples, there is no way it is. Especially if you want to adjust recording times like I gave the example.


That's your opinion, I disagree.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

I like how one person seems to be going out of his way to disregard people with whom he disagrees. even going so far as to call their beliefs a religion.

Which is fascinating, considering the definition of the word zealot.

zeal·ot
ˈzelət/
_noun_
noun: *zealot*; plural noun: *zealots*
a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

Example: going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how the grid guide is obviously superior and anyone who disagrees is wrong, by definition. Hmmm, remind me...who's starting the religion?


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

Let's look at how many clicks it would take:








Notice that I see 8 movies all at once, and a single "Page Down" command shows me the next 8 programs. So about 16 programs in 1 click.

The grid guide for this would only be showing 1 movie, and half of another. You'd have to right-click 16 times to see as many. There's no way seeing 1 and a half movies at a time is more efficient than a whole page or 8 at once. I'd be clicking forever to go through all the guide data.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

DancnDude said:


> Let's look at how many clicks it would take:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100%, it's why I felt like my hands were tied using Hydra to browse channels and decided to roll back. Hopefully they will add this at some point in the future.


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## TivoJD (Feb 8, 2005)

You are assuming that everyone wants to look at one channel at a time. Those that like the grid guide get to see 10 channels at once, so you really can't compare it that way. A more accurate comparison would be the grid guide allows 10 channels at once x 1.5 movies = 15 movies and with one click that's 30. And maybe not 30, but certainly more than 16.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

TivoJD said:


> You are assuming that everyone wants to look at one channel at a time. Those that like the grid guide get to see 10 channels at once, so you really can't compare it that way.


No, if you take another look at the graphic in post #66, the Live Guide shows 8 channels at one time (in the left pane) and 8 programs for the highlighted channel in the right pane. So you actually get both! And you can use FF/RW to change (by the half hour) the time shown very quickly if you need to. Replay and Advance will do the same in 24-hour increments.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Well, no live guide is a deal breaker for me. I'll wait for it and until some other issues are resolved.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Real world. In the morning I choose a couple of channels I watch and scan for the next 12 to 24 hours on each to see if their is anything to record.

This is impossible in grid guide with my time constraints.

I'll also add I did not like the my shows area in Hydra. I also did not like selecting things 3 or 4 times to accomplish the same thing with one or 2 clicks.


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## Johnwashere (Sep 17, 2005)

chrishicks said:


> Were you always a Grid Guide user? This is the Grid Guide prior to Hydra since you don't seem to know which is which and what you were using prior:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK gotcha. Yep I personally like the grid guide better. I like to see whats upcoming for multiple channels at once and not just 1 channel . I get it though, some people like the live view only, its just not the way I like it. Hopefully they bring the option back because so many people really do seem to like it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I definitely prefer the Live Guide. But there are too many excellent improvements with Hydra. I've been using the Grid guide since updating all my TiVos to Hydra this past Sunday. I can get by with the Grid guide. But there is no way I would ever want to go back to using the HDUI just to have the Live Guide. Since to me, Hydra is so much better than the HDUi ever was.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

TivoJD said:


> You are assuming that everyone wants to look at one channel at a time. Those that like the grid guide get to see 10 channels at once, so you really can't compare it that way. A more accurate comparison would be the grid guide allows 10 channels at once x 1.5 movies = 15 movies and with one click that's 30. And maybe not 30, but certainly more than 16.


I think that you're right, to a degree. In the end, I think it comes down to one's preference and how one's brain works: when I'm searching and scanning for the day (or longer) to set up recordings, I prefer to be more one-track, and so Live Guide serves me well and is more efficient, going channel-by-channel for the few I scan; if I'm in the evening and only looking for now and/or the next hour or 2, I can see how the grid serves well.

And so, the right answer is: have both available.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I definitely prefer the Live Guide. But there are too many excellent improvements with Hydra. I've been using the Grid guide since updating all my TiVos to Hydra this past Sunday. I can get by with the Grid guide. But there is no way I would ever want to go back to using the HDUI just to have the Live Guide. Since to me, Hydra is so much better than the HDUi ever was.


Slightly off-topic but what the heck: what do you really like about the big "H"?


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## Bville01 (Jan 17, 2014)

I have used the grid guide for years with my Roamio. This week I switched to OTA and the new Bolt Vox. I discovered what is apparently the Hydra format loaded, which I am having trouble with. Is there any sort of instructions somewhere for using Hydra. I am not enjoying it, but maybe because I'm doing things the hard way. Seems confusing!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Slightly off-topic but what the heck: what do you really like about the big "H"?


Just about everything. Especially the Episode Strip. That is easily my favorite feature.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> Let's look at how many clicks it would take:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And if you do that for the 10 channels that the grid guide shows, you do it 10 times.

The live guide sycophants look at one tiny use case and say it proved it. It doesn't.

Right now I am looking at my movie channels and see 21 movies in one look. They are all HBO so I can pick what I want when I want it. I paged through by 2 hours and smallest I saw at one time was 17.

Stop using a single channel only. This is not the 1960s.

Still amazed at the twists and gyrations live guide users will go through to justify the choice.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I guess I'm kinda amazed that trying to force a view on someone else still is being discussed, lol.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Still amazed at the twists and gyrations live guide users will go through to justify the choice.


Wouldn't really be an issue if it was still a choice under Hydra as it has been since the beginning of using Tivo for many.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> I guess I'm kinda amazed that trying to force a view on someone else still is being discussed, lol.


Yeah. The name-calling has crossed the line now. Reported.


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

I very much prefer the Grid Guide, but that's based on how I use my TiVo. However, I would never suggest my use case should determine what is best for everyone. But I've always been one to prefer more having more user preferences, while most developers avoid them whenever they can.

Curiously enough, one of my biggest pet peeves with the interface (outside of the various bugs that have been detailed elsewhere) is the predictions bar at the bottom the screen. Aside from the fact that I think it's absolutely pointless (hey, just my opinion!), the first show it always seems to suggest is "Dr. Oz," which is a show neither I nor anyone in the household ever watch or record. And despite giving it the maximum number of thumbs down, I can't seem to get rid of it. Curse you, Oz!


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Megamind said:


> I very much prefer the Grid Guide, but that's based on how I use my TiVo. However, I would never suggest my use case should determine what is best for everyone. But I've always been one to prefer more having more user preferences, while most developers avoid them whenever they can.
> 
> Curiously enough, one of my biggest pet peeves with the interface (outside of the various bugs that have been detailed elsewhere) is the predictions bar at the bottom the screen. Aside from the fact that I think it's absolutely pointless (hey, just my opinion!), the first show it always seems to suggest is "Dr. Oz," which is a show neither I nor anyone in the household ever watch or record. And despite giving it the maximum number of thumbs down, I can't seem to get rid of it. Curse you, Oz!


I noticed that too-it seems to list any show I've ever recorded, even only once as "Your Show" and many others listed were uninteresting to me. And as you mention seems to be no way to remove them. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is supposed to get smarter and learn over time.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Megamind said:


> I very much prefer the Grid Guide, but that's based on how I use my TiVo. However, I would never suggest my use case should determine what is best for everyone. But I've always been one to prefer more having more user preferences, while most developers avoid them whenever they can.
> 
> Curiously enough, one of my biggest pet peeves with the interface (outside of the various bugs that have been detailed elsewhere) is the predictions bar at the bottom the screen. Aside from the fact that I think it's absolutely pointless (hey, just my opinion!), the first show it always seems to suggest is "Dr. Oz," which is a show neither I nor anyone in the household ever watch or record. And despite giving it the maximum number of thumbs down, I can't seem to get rid of it. Curse you, Oz!


You don't think its a paid placement for Dr. Oz do you?, I mean they do it with products in tv shows and movies, why not with shows on TiVo Hydra?

Hail Hydra

Jack


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

jmerr74 said:


> It's been a tough transition for my wife. Personally, I miss the live guide. I also miss the three channel guide while watching Live TV. I mean pretty pictures are great and all, for the TV shows. However, if it is so laggy it brings the whole system to a screaming halt...
> 
> I honestly get that it's a "Beta Test", but as it stands now this should be considered more of an Alpha test. I would immediately roll back if I didn't lose my recordings.


I do not understand why so many people were in a rush for this. Especially MEN WITH WIVES...LOL


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> And if you do that for the 10 channels that the grid guide shows, you do it 10 times.
> 
> The live guide sycophants look at one tiny use case and say it proved it. It doesn't.
> 
> ...


The stations I watch are not next to each other. It's not helpful to me to see what's on now because I record everything. And half the time those shows have already started so I'd missed the beginning.

It's better for me to look into the future to see what will be on later to record so I can watch anytime.

I'm not advocating for removal of the grid guide for those who like it. I just don't see it being very useful to me now that Tivo let's me record everything and watch later instead of what's on now.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> Just about everything. Especially the Episode Strip. That is easily my favorite feature.


That will be the *FIRST* thing I turn off...if they ever put the live guide in and fix all the bugs. Gonna be months...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

JolDC said:


> I disagree with your "most agree with me" statement.
> 
> TiVo knows exactly how many use the grid and how many use the live guide. The members of TCF are not the majority of TiVo users and the majority probably never switch from the default grid guide.
> 
> And they didn't get rid of it. They looked at existing usage data and decided to not put resources behind rewriting the live guide for gen4.


How do you know if they know???

Also the reasons why they do things is that they are Lazy and don't test enough and thoroughly, and g-d knows who these beta testers are...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

idksmy said:


> Criminal? Really?


Really, again? Do you have anything to contribute besides your sarcasm, which is useless and unwanted...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

samccfl99 said:


> Really, again? Do you have anything to contribute besides your sarcasm, which is useless and unwanted...


This made me laugh out loud! Sam, you are a card!


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

samccfl99 said:


> Really, again? Do you have anything to contribute besides your sarcasm, which is useless and unwanted...


Do you? You must think calling a software release criminal is OK. Calling people lazy is OK and worthwhile?

Repetitve complaining and asking where the Play button is on the remote is useless and unwanted.

Time to report you. then ignore you.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

samccfl99 said:


> Really, again? Do you have anything to contribute besides your sarcasm, which is useless and unwanted...


Take some time today to read all of your own posts over the last week.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

samccfl99 said:


> Also the reasons why they do things is that they are Lazy and don't test enough and thoroughly, and g-d knows who these beta testers are...


Management requirements to launch software into production do not include bug free, feature complete, etc, etc. Core functionality needs to be there and what that is management decides. Bugs and features are being worked on as we post.

I worked in software QA. After a major product launch, top level managers would ask how many people they could lay off -- not just in QA but in development, DBA, business analysis. I would always answer, let's see how the postmortem meeting goes, at which dozens of enhancement requests were listed and bug fix priorities were sorted out. I did not fear for my job but was concerned about the never ending enhancement requests.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

cherry ghost said:


> Take some time today to read all of your own posts over the last week.


So you read them? I do not bash people, only Tivo, Inc...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> This made me laugh out loud! Sam, you are a card!


And this compliment from one of my old first critics. Love it and thanks! You know I generally do not bash people for "chiding" someone. I really only slightly bash idiots and of course Tivo, Inc.

AND he wants to report me? For what, pointing out that he is a....well IDK...LOL.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Management requirements to launch software into production do not include bug free, feature complete, etc, etc. Core functionality needs to be there and what that is management decides. Bugs and features are being worked on as we post.
> 
> I worked in software QA. After a major product launch, top level managers would ask how many people they could lay off -- not just in QA but in development, DBA, business analysis. I would always answer, let's see how the postmortem meeting goes, at which dozens of enhancement requests were listed and bug fix priorities were sorted out. I did not fear for my job but was concerned about the never ending enhancement requests.


Oh my, where do I start? I know much about software and Tivo, Inc from Experience. I of course know they are working on it. I was in IT Banking for service bureaus for over 25 years in many capacities, including QA+++. Mistakes cannot be made with peoples money under Federal law, which means testing, testing, and more testing. They might have gotten more beta testers IF they had a downgrade procedure that at least kept the recordings (1P's and things could then be restored via KMTTG).

I do not have an extra Host Tivo to play with, but wish I did. Would take me less than 2 hours to find all the basic bugs and things I know that are quirky to Tivo. I am a collector and have too too many recordings to backup and restore (over 1200 and you cannot restore copyrighted material to boot). And many people have reverted back until more fixes and restoring some lost functions occurs.

I am sure they will try to make it better, but we are still in theirs hands AND we own the equipment and many of us, the service too. This must be taken into consideration. But I am glad that they have Ted around to interface. Thanks Ted!


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

Why do some people feel the need to carry on and on and respond to every single post with a differing option, just childish. Say if you prefer live or grid guide and move on. Its getting like the kiddie video games forums with PS vs XB in these topics.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

idksmy said:


> Do you? You must think calling a software release criminal is OK. Calling people lazy is OK and worthwhile?
> Repetitve complaining and asking where the Play button is on the remote is useless and unwanted.
> Time to report you. then ignore you.


I just ignored him too. For as old as claims he is, just sad really to be such a troll.


----------



## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Let me start off with: "You made the decision to go with this new software." Maybe improve your decision making skills?



samccfl99 said:


> Oh my, where do I start? I know much about software and Tivo, Inc from Experience. I of course know they are working on it. I was in IT Banking for service bureaus for over 25 years in many capacities, including QA+++. Mistakes cannot be made with peoples money under Federal law, which means testing, testing, and more testing.


Tivo is not a bank or financial exchange, correct? (I've tested at both)


samccfl99 said:


> They might have gotten more beta testers IF they had a downgrade procedure that at least kept the recordings (1P's and things could then be restored via KMTTG).


YOU didn't backup your recordings? 1Ps? Your bad.



samccfl99 said:


> I do not have an extra Host Tivo to play with, but wish I did.


Make more money. I know that is mean, but your complaint is very First World. Or, like I did, don't go with brand new software. My Tivo Roamio is giving me the same premium DVR experience I expect from Tivo.


samccfl99 said:


> Would take me less than 2 hours to find all the basic bugs and things I know that are quirky to Tivo.


And with your magic wand you program the fixes, update the databases, QA them and beta test them in the same 2 hours? You have an odd take on the SDLC process.


samccfl99 said:


> I am a collector and have too too many recordings to backup and restore (over 1200 and you cannot restore copyrighted material to boot).


 My backups are automated or run on pre-programmed scripts. But do blame yourself for not doing backups and don't make excuses.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Let me start off with: "You made the decision to go with this new software." Maybe improve your decision making skills?


I really hate to respond to people like you...But can't you read? I am too smart to upgrade to this yet...



chicagobrownblue said:


> ,YOU didn't backup your recordings? 1Ps? Your bad.
> 
> Make more money.


How dare you!!! LOL.



chicagobrownblue said:


> But do blame yourself for not doing backups and don't make excuses.


What the heck are you talking about???

I am going back to my tivo...as you should be doing too...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

samccfl99 said:


> And this compliment from one of my old first critics. Love it and thanks! You know I generally do not bash people for "chiding" someone. I really only slightly bash idiots and of course Tivo, Inc.
> 
> AND he wants to report me? For what, pointing out that he is a....well IDK...LOL.


I should give credit where credit is due; although you remain as curmudgeonly as always, your missives no longer read like ransom notes! Well done!


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

hefe said:


> What's Live Guide? Is that the one where you get a list of channels on the left, and when you select one, it shows you all its shows on the right? If so, that's what I use. I'd hate to lose it.


33000 posts and youre not clear on what the live guide is? really?


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

mattyro7878 said:


> 33000 posts and youre not clear on what the live guide is? really?


Is it the same as the love guide?

(Asking for my wife.)



serial_port_me05 said:


> After looking at the changes Hydra brings - I want to be sure I don't automatically upgrade to it.
> 
> Is there something I need to do to avoid?
> 
> ...


----------



## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

JolDC said:


> TiVo knows exactly how many use the grid and how many use the live guide. The members of TCF are not the majority of TiVo users and the majority probably never switch from the default grid guide.


The default is the live guide though so if the majority of people are using the grid guide then they purposefully made that selection which would justify their decision to go there with Hydra. (We still use the live guide but we've had TiVo's since 2000 and we rarely use the guide.)

Scott


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Those of you who want the live guide need to tell tivo that you aren’t transitioning because of it. (That and transfers seem to be the real showstoppers for some.) I’d bet tivo wants people to move and a block that isn’t can leverage that.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> Those of you who want the live guide need to tell tivo that you aren't transitioning because of it. (That and transfers seem to be the real showstoppers for some.) I'd bet tivo wants people to move and a block that isn't can leverage that.


I think TiVo Ted indicated the Live Guide was a frequent request during beta testing so it seems they are aware of it. When I was messaging him about testing the gen3 rollback I let him know I liked Hydra a lot but the Live Guide is primarily why I wanted to go back. Will see if they decide to implement a version of it in Hydra or not over time.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Those of you who want the live guide need to tell tivo that you aren't transitioning because of it. (That and transfers seem to be the real showstoppers for some.) I'd bet tivo wants people to move and a block that isn't can leverage that.


 Tony speaks the truth...Those of you who want the live guide need to tell tivo. Why we may sympathize with you, we don't have the power to grant your request, Good luck


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

tenthplanet said:


> Tony speaks the truth...Those of you who want the live guide need to tell tivo. Why we may sympathize with you, we don't have the power to grant your request, Good luck


As far as Things go, Tivo Employees read this forum and yes our thoughts count quite a lot. If you want to start a Nay Sayer Thread please do it elsewhere other than here.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> As far as Things go, Tivo Employees read this forum and yes our thoughts count quite a lot. If you want to start a Nay Sayer Thread please do it elsewhere other than here.


That was looking less and less true until Ted reappeared for hydra. It looked like we were abandoned.

ETA: Oh. And I meant it that everyone who will not upgrade say why HERE as well as anywhere else they can.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

TonyD79 said:


> That was looking less and less true until Ted reappeared for hydra. It looked like we were abandoned.
> 
> ETA: Oh. And I meant it that everyone who will not upgrade say why HERE as well as anywhere else they can.


Fair enough.


----------



## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

I don't understand why some folks are so invested in insulting those of us who prefer Live Guide. What's the biggie? To continue having the choice, IMO, is a good thing. It was already there. Why take it away?

I wouldn't think negatively of anybody who likes the other one best. But to remove one choice is just a drag for those who prefer that choice. If they were taking away the other choice, the people who prefer that choice would not be pleased either. It's just a matter of being able to see things from the POV of others.  No harm, no foul.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

sharkster said:


> I don't understand why some folks are so invested in insulting those of us who prefer Live Guide. What's the biggie? To continue having the choice, IMO, is a good thing. It was already there. Why take it away?


They didn't take it away, they'd have to program it into Hydra. If they ran out of time and/or they knew not many people used it, then the grid guide would take top priority.

Tivo needs Hydra stable for the holiday shopping season, they're hopefully putting resources into fixing bugs than adding a live guide. Maybe after things calm down they'll add the live guide to Hydra.

The ironic part is that Hydra is supposed to replace some of the functionality of both the grid and live guides. That _should_ mean we wouldn't be using the guide very much anyway, which in turn should mean there shouldn't be a need to support two different versions of it.


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## Kivo (Feb 20, 2003)

To me, the Live Guide is one of the things that makes TiVo TiVo. Start taking away things like this and TiVo becomes just another cable DVR.

Sad.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

BobCamp1 said:


> They didn't take it away, they'd have to program it into Hydra. If they ran out of time and/or they knew not many people used it, then the grid guide would take top priority.
> 
> Tivo needs Hydra stable for the holiday shopping season, they're hopefully putting resources into fixing bugs than adding a live guide. Maybe after things calm down they'll add the live guide to Hydra.
> 
> The ironic part is that Hydra is supposed to replace some of the functionality of both the grid and live guides. That _should_ mean we wouldn't be using the guide very much anyway, which in turn should mean there shouldn't be a need to support two different versions of it.


I disagree.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> I disagree.


If you like the old guide, then don't upgrade to Hydra. It sounds like you wouldn't use the new features anyway.

I haven't upgraded yet, because my Tivo is a backup DVR and I don't really need a fancy GUI for it. I forgot the Bolt even had a live guide option until this thread.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

I don't believe the story that live guide was removed because more people preferred grid guide. Live guide is Tivo. The Rovi Tivo is all about the mso and this new Hydra is for them. 

This is windows 8 re-do. Take away useful features (Tiles instead of lists, looks familiar in Hydra) and take more steps to get thing done. Hydra is a resource hog.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

BobCamp1 said:


> If you like the old guide, then don't upgrade to Hydra. It sounds like you wouldn't use the new features anyway.
> 
> I haven't upgraded yet, because my Tivo is a backup DVR and I don't really need a fancy GUI for it. I forgot the Bolt even had a live guide option until this thread.


Obviously you don't understand the the term Disagree and you make a false assumption that I don't like Hydra. How many more false assumptions will you make? I am sure that there will be many more. And for someone to say well they removed the Live Guide for stability issues for the upcoming Christmas season well that's laughable. So go on and make your blanket False assumptions we need the laughter any way.

Hail Hydra

Jack


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

sharkster said:


> I don't understand why some folks are so invested in insulting those of us who prefer Live Guide. What's the biggie? To continue having the choice, IMO, is a good thing. It was already there. Why take it away?
> 
> I wouldn't think negatively of anybody who likes the other one best. But to remove one choice is just a drag for those who prefer that choice. If they were taking away the other choice, the people who prefer that choice would not be pleased either. It's just a matter of being able to see things from the POV of others.  No harm, no foul.


One of the things that made TiVo Better IMO was the live guide. And they gave us the choice of the standard Grid Guide and Live Guide. Having Choices is what really makes things better. There are definitely somethings that were worth saving from the standard interface, Live Guide was one of them. The layout on the Hydra could be less clunky but is that due to ignorance of the new setup or just bad programing I don't know. Either way change is upon us and we will either adapt or not. At the end of day I am very much pleased with most of the Hydra interface.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> One of the things that made TiVo Better IMO was the live guide. And they gave us the choice of the standard Grid Guide and Live Guide. Having Choices is what really makes things better. There are definitely somethings that were worth saving from the standard interface, Live Guide was one of them. The layout on the Hydra could be less clunky but is that due to ignorance of the new setup or just bad programing I don't know. Either way change is upon us and we will either adapt or not. At the end of day I am very much pleased with most of the Hydra interface.


Totally agree. If hydra is a success or not will depend on how they adjust, refine and enhance going forward.

There should be an update soon for some of the obvious bugs and decisions that didn't go over well. But I expect more of them to be things like tile sizes and text on them. I'd assume Live guide and others depend on if they were already working on them as they seem more complex to implement/port.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> *If you like the old guide, then don't upgrade to Hydra. *It sounds like you wouldn't use the new features anyway.
> 
> I haven't upgraded yet, because my Tivo is a backup DVR and I don't really need a fancy GUI for it. I forgot the Bolt even had a live guide option until this thread.


I'd like to upgrade to Hydra, and experience the new experience. But unfortunately, there are some absence/removal-of-feature impediments, including the absence of the Live Guide. It's unfortunate that this had to occur, and that these "toggles" to the upgrade process exist.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

JACKASTOR said:


> Having Choices is what really makes things better.


This is what ultimately makes/made TiVo great. Cable co. DVRs are extremely inflexible forcing you to conform to how the DVR wants you to use it. Seeing the Hydra upgrade remove some long standing features (live guide, no PC->TiVo transfers, removal of some SPS codes, etc) concerns us TiVo users.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I would be equally happy if they didn't add the "Live Guide" back, and instead just built an easy, powerful way to browse Guide Data with a whole bunch of filters that could be combined and stacked:
- Recordings only (ignore streaming): just to show me things I'd want to set up to record
- By channel
- By time
- By genre
- By type (movie/tv/sports)
etc.

The biggest thing is to make it easy for users to look through what's coming up on the stations they get and set up recordings for them. I don't necessarily care if it's a separate function or it's baked into the "Guide". They could probably make it even more useful if it were done properly and it wasn't tied in with the current guide. Maybe an "Explore this channel" menu item from the current guide that opens this "Guide Data Explorer".


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

Wife prefers LiveGuide... therefore, no Hydra for me. Quite simple.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I would be equally happy if they didn't add the "Live Guide" back, and instead just built an easy, powerful way to browse Guide Data with a whole bunch of filters that could be combined and stacked:
> - Recordings only (ignore streaming): just to show me things I'd want to set up to record
> - By channel
> - By time
> ...


And search by channel may be back quicker as it seems simpler to code. But that is from the outside.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> Obviously you don't understand the the term Disagree and you make a false assumption that I don't like Hydra. How many more false assumptions will you make? I am sure that there will be many more. And for someone to say well they removed the Live Guide for stability issues for the upcoming Christmas season well that's laughable. So go on and make your blanket False assumptions we need the laughter any way.
> 
> Hail Hydra
> 
> Jack


For all the complaining you did about Hydra, I did assume you didn't like it.

Anyway, here's a post from Tivo_Ted describing why live guide is not in Hydra. I don't know if you missed this, as there are a dozen threads on Hydra and it's easy to miss one post:
No Live Guide in Hydra/gen4 UI

Sounds to me like they couldn't figure out how to get the live guide working in Hydra in the time they allotted themselves, so based on the data they had they prioritized the grid guide first. If they had time and resources, it sounds like they would have included it since "there are certain scenarios where the Live Guide is super useful" and they know it's omission is a "major issue." He also said Tivo might add live guide features into the grid guide to get the best of both worlds.

He also said, "If lack of a Live Guide is a deal breaker, you can choose to stay on the current release." That sounds familiar....


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

BobCamp1 said:


> For all the complaining you did about Hydra, I did assume you didn't like it.
> 
> Anyway, here's a post from Tivo_Ted describing why live guide is not in Hydra. I don't know if you missed this, as there are a dozen threads on Hydra and it's easy to miss one post:
> No Live Guide in Hydra/gen4 UI
> ...


Hahah. Never did I complain about hydra. Which proves the point your just blowing false assumptions out.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

+1 for live guide.
I will upgrade one Bolt+ to hydra. Hopefully, it plays well with my TiVo Mini's and other Bolt+.

- Rich


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

RichB said:


> +1 for live guide.
> I will upgrade one Bolt+ to hydra. Hopefully, it plays well with my TiVo Mini's and other Bolt+.
> 
> - Rich


And that's a good way to go. Try it and see. Ultimately the only way. Just remember to transfer shows to your regular bolts if you go back so that you don't loose the shows.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

I thought Tivo software was written in a metalanguage (HEX??) that allowed it to compile to any hardware. Since Hydra is missing some existing functionality, did they abandon this approach and start from scratch?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I thought Tivo software was written in a metalanguage (HEX??) that allowed it to compile to any hardware. Since Hydra is missing some existing functionality, did they abandon this approach and start from scratch?


I think you mean Haxe.
Haxe - Wikipedia


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

JoeKustra said:


> I think you mean Haxe.
> Haxe - Wikipedia


Thanks. So, did they abandon the Haxe approach?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Thanks. So, did they abandon the Haxe approach?


Sorry, I don't have that information. You might scroll through the copyright information to see if it's there. I'm pretty sure it's still in my Roamio on 20.7.4 since I've seen it in the logs.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Thanks. So, did they abandon the Haxe approach?


I would guess that they are still using it since the Mini VOX is a different hardware platform.

Scott


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

chrishicks said:


> Were you always a Grid Guide user? This is the Grid Guide prior to Hydra since you don't seem to know which is which and what you were using prior:
> 
> For almost 15 years that is the guide I and others have used. It's one of the reasons why many of us stayed with Tivo over something else because we are accustomed to it. Once you start stripping away things that users are accustomed to that product no longer seems as attractive as it once did which is why I believe some people are upset of the lack of Live Guide(among other things) in Hydra.
> 
> ...


On the X1 you can do the very same thing. In the guide just go to the left to the channel name/number, click on it and select channel info. Bingo, a 2 week live guide.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mschnebly said:


> On the X1 you can do the very same thing. In the guide just go to the left to the channel name/number, click on it and select channel info. Bingo, a 2 week live guide.


Many dvrs work that way. As do the TiVo apps.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Arguing about the Live vs Grid guide is like arguing over chocolate versus vanilla ice cream - some people like one, other the opposite. Personally I always hated the Live Guide, but my daughter loved it when she lived at home. If the Live Guide is important to you, definitely DO NOT upgrade to Hydra.

Also, EVERYONE should remember that they signed up for Hydra on a page that said at the very top "EARLY ACCESS" - this is the very first iteration. A patch for the v66 errors is coming soon, and there will be frequent updates. If you don't want to live through the growing pains, stay on the Classic UI for now. You can always upgrade later.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Diana Collins said:


> If you don't want to live through the growing pains, stay on the Classic UI for now. You can always upgrade later.


Well said. I have, and I will. [Roamio Pro, no Mini]
I'm very happy with 20.7.4's speedy, predictable performance and PQ (even with the buffer glitch). And I appreciate having the compact all-tuner list for switching channels and the minimal number of clicks to do anything. And the clock ... The Clock!
For me the UI is merely a delivery system that functions well and suits my needs.
Happy as a clam right now, but I'm sure I will upgrade at some future time as I did going from Win 7 to Win 10.
"Live Free, Live Strong, Live Guide"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

humbb said:


> Happy as a clam right now, but I'm sure I will upgrade at some future time as I did going from Win 7 to Win 10.


You are going to treat the first Hydra release like Win 8!


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

TonyD79 said:


> You are going to treat the first Hydra release like Win 8!


You saw what I did there!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Diana Collins said:


> Arguing about the Live vs Grid guide is like arguing over chocolate versus vanilla ice cream - some people like one, other the opposite. Personally I always hated the Live Guide, but my daughter loved it when she lived at home. If the Live Guide is important to you, definitely DO NOT upgrade to Hydra.
> 
> ........


The Live Guide is very important to me. But to me, the benefits of Hydra easily outweigh using the Live Guide. Which is why I upgraded all my Tivos to Hydra. I have been extremely pleased with it.


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## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

I went from series 2 to series 3 to Bolt so I never had the live guide until recently and have 15 years or so with the grid guide. I personally like the grid guide better because when I open the guide I'm looking for something to watch now or in the very near future, and I care more about seeing what's on as many channels as possible within the next hour or so than seeing the schedule for a single channel over a longer period of time. It takes a long time and a lot of button presses to walk all the channels in live guide to get the same information that I can already see on the screen in grid guide.

That said, I fully understand people wanting a choice since live guide has been around for a number of years and people are used to using it.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

What to watch now does provide that functionality. But I understand your point


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> The Live Guide is very important to me. But to me, the benefits of Hydra easily outweigh using the Live Guide. Which is why I upgraded all my Tivos to Hydra. I have been extremely pleased with it.


and those benefits are?

I have yet to see one


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tivoknucklehead said:


> and those benefits are?
> 
> I have yet to see one


I see them every day. A modern UI, more cast info, episode strip, higher resolution fonts etc..

The only two things Hydra doesn't give me that I would want would be of course the Live Guide and PC to TiVo transfers. I've gotten by without the live guide just fine, so far. And I rarely use PC to TiVo transfers anyway. So I've set KMTTG up so I could always stream them through PLEX now if I need to watch something that was transferred.

And of course TiVo to Tivo transfers can still be initiated from TiVo online. I only need to transfer to another Tivo when i put shows on the TiVo I take to my GFs house. And as long as I can do that with TiVo online I'm fine with it. Since there is really no need for me to transfer for local watching, since I just stream between Tivos.


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

tivoknucklehead said:


> and those benefits are?


That's a fair question. Strictly in terms of functionality, I'm not sure there are many significant benefits to Hydra-at least not yet. Hydra is a modernized UI that TiVo introduced to stay current in a marketplace replete with flashy interfaces. For now, it's mostly form over function and as such does not introduce a host of gee-whiz, can't miss features. In fact, depending on who you ask, it's missing a few that some consider an absolute necessity.

Still, while there are bugs and I'm still retraining my fingers to navigate the new interface without fumbles, the more I use it, the more I like it. But it's a matter of personal preference; if you're happy and adverse to change, don't upgrade.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Diana Collins said:


> Arguing about the Live vs Grid guide is like arguing over chocolate versus vanilla ice cream - some people like one, other the opposite.


I think it is more like "Baskin & Robbins 1 flavor" -- take it or leave it. Or like "NEW! Fewer features! Reduced Usability!" Not going to sell me new hardware like this.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

why does Hydra create a group for single episode shows? extra clicks = wasted time for no reason
and switching to another tivo and back in "my shows" is clunky as hell now


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I see them every day. A modern UI, more cast info, episode strip, higher resolution fonts etc..
> 
> The only two things Hydra doesn't give me that I would want would be of course the Live Guide and PC to TiVo transfers. I've gotten by without the live guide just fine, so far. And I rarely use PC to TiVo transfers anyway. So I've set KMTTG up so I could always stream them through PLEX now if I need to watch something that was transferred.
> 
> And of course TiVo to Tivo transfers can still be initiated from TiVo online. I only need to transfer to another Tivo when i put shows on the TiVo I take to my GFs house. And as long as I can do that with TiVo online I'm fine with it. Since there is really no need for me to transfer for local watching, since I just stream between Tivos.


I can live with the UI if they bring back deleted features in the future


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

humbb said:


> I'm very happy with 20.7.4's speedy, predictable performance and PQ (even with the buffer glitch). And I appreciate having the compact all-tuner list for switching channels and the minimal number of clicks to do anything. And the clock ... The Clock!
> For me the UI is merely a delivery system that functions well and suits my needs.
> Happy as a clam right now, but I'm sure I will upgrade at some future time as I did going from Win 7 to Win 10.
> "Live Free, Live Strong, Live Guide"


IT Prof here. Still have W7 on my lightening speed desktop. I hate W10...LOL.

And I won't go to this now...maybe never...

Also people talking about this CLOCK. I started with tivo in 2012 and never even knew until recently that the "play" button did something other than bring the bar up and now for QM...LOL. I am going to have to look up the SPS codes!


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Megamind said:


> That's a fair question. Strictly in terms of functionality, I'm not sure there are many significant benefits to Hydra-at least not yet. Hydra is a modernized UI that TiVo introduced to stay current in a marketplace replete with flashy interfaces. For now, it's mostly form over function and as such does not introduce a host of gee-whiz, can't miss features. In fact, depending on who you ask, it's missing a few that some consider an absolute necessity.
> 
> Still, while there are bugs and I'm still retraining my fingers to navigate the new interface without fumbles, the more I use it, the more I like it. But it's a matter of personal preference; if you're happy and *adverse* to change, don't upgrade.


That's a good synopsis of the situation IMHO.

However, note that the word you were looking for is "averse", not "adverse." It's a common mistake (see here).


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

chiguy50 said:


> However, note that the word you were looking for is "averse", not "adverse." It's a common mistake (see here).


Ugh! I don't know how that one got past me. Given the way I make my living and the number of times I've pointed that same mistake to people over the years, I'm genuinely embarrassed.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

q


Megamind said:


> Ugh! I don't know how that one got past me. Given the way I make my living and the number of times I've pointed that same mistake to people over the years, I'm genuinely embarrassed.


auto correct does that a lot to people.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Megamind said:


> Ugh! I don't know how that one got past me. Given the way I make my living and the number of times I've pointed that same mistake to people over the years, I'm genuinely embarrassed.


If it's any consolation, you are not alone. I am a linguist and nonetheless have committed some howlers of my own.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> IT Prof here. Still have W7 on my lightening speed desktop. I hate W10...LOL.
> 
> And I won't go to this now...maybe never...


IT professional here and I like Windows 10 (Windows 8 on the other hand was great on a tablet but no so good on a full PC).

On the TiVo front though, I don't think we'll be upgrading either unless there's a driving reason or new feature to do so. Definitely PC to TiVo transfers would be the biggest issue for me right now.

Scott


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

HerronScott said:


> IT professional here and I like Windows 10 (Windows 8 on the other hand was great on a tablet but no so good on a full PC).
> 
> On the TiVo front though, I don't think we'll be upgrading either unless there's a driving reason or new feature to do so. Definitely PC to TiVo transfers would be the biggest issue for me right now.
> 
> Scott


Yeah the transfer issue is a bummer.. I liked to be able to transfer shows to my tivo to stream out of home to my iPad at work where I have few hours to kill every shift..


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

I hate to break this to you Live Guide users but Live Guide is actually incorporated in the main function of Hydra. You enter it by pressing the up arrow while in Live TV. Yes it shows a horizontal line of tiles that represent the upcoming shows but all the functionality that exists with the old UI Live Guide is still there with Hydra.
You can enter a specific channel number and it will change to that channel. Pressing the left button will take you back to the previous programs for 3 days back. Pressing the right button will take you to the next program which can go out to 12 to 14 days. Pressing the fast forward button will advance 3 tiles at a time. Pressing the rewind button will take you back 3 tiles at a time. Pressing the info button will bring up the program description and a number of options to record, set 1Ps, etc. Pressing the up or down button will advance the channels up and down. Pressing select button will tune to that channel.
If you change to just favorites in the grid guide then that is what the Hydra Live Guide will show. So the Live Guide is front and center in Hydra but in a different presentation than the older version. The best part of the Live Guide with Hydra is you never leave Live TV as it only covers a few inches of the bottom of your screen.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Hmmmm.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Naw. The up arrow is horrible for live guide users or grid guide users. It shows less than either. Three shows on one channel. You don’t get what the live guide users like, many shows on one channel, or what the grid guide users like, a few shows on a lot of channels.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> I hate to break this to you Live Guide users but Live Guide is actually incorporated in the main function of Hydra. You enter it by pressing the up arrow while in Live TV.


I wish the people who keep posting this would learn what the live guide is.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

stile99 said:


> I wish the people who keep posting this would learn what the live guide is.





TonyD79 said:


> Naw. The up arrow is horrible for live guide users or grid guide users. It shows less than either. Three shows on one channel. You don't get what the live guide users like, many shows on one channel, or what the grid guide users like, a few shows on a lot of channels.


I know what the Live Guide is but this is a completely new UI and this is the new version of it. If you remember the video Margret did for Hydra it was the MSOs that ask TiVo not to break the grid guide so they included it in Hydra. This "new Live Guide" is the guide for Hydra. What is nice about it is you don't even leave Live TV to use it.
My question is what are any of you Live Guide users gonna do if TiVo leaves this as is?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

You don’t have to leave live tv to use any guide on tivo.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

Jed1 said:


> I know what the Live Guide is but this is a completely new UI and this is the new version of it. If you remember the video Margret did for Hydra it was the MSOs that ask TiVo not to break the grid guide so they included it in Hydra. This "new Live Guide" is the guide for Hydra. What is nice about it is you don't even leave Live TV to use it.
> My question is what are any of you Live Guide users gonna do if TiVo leaves this as is?


I suspect users will stay with the current interface.
If you could switch back without losing everything, then I think TiVo would see what the installed base thinks of the Hydra. 

MSO's have a easier time forcing change on their customers. TiVo has always had a base that voted with their wallets which is why, in the past, they had the best DVR experience in the industry.

Time will tell if TiVo development is willing to take a zero-based look at the usability issues incurred by Hydra and make corrections. One thing is for sure, there would be a full-on revolt if the base was forced into Hydra.

Supporting two interfaces is not a good business plan. Yet, this is in place now. I suspect there is an inkling that this is not the best product since ice-cream. 

- Rich


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> You don't have to leave live tv to use any guide on tivo.


If you use any of the guides in the two UIs it will squeeze live TV into a small window. With the current "Live Guide" idea it just overlays the lower half of the live TV channel.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> My question is what are any of you Live Guide users gonna do if TiVo leaves this as is?


Not buy a Bolt -- 3 years running now for different reasons. My Roamio has Live Guide and is stable.

I still have money from a small windfall from September 2014. I'll use it during Black Friday to buy a 4K TV. Until there is recordable 4K content, I don't see the need for a Tvio upgrade.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

RichB said:


> I suspect users will stay with the current interface.
> If you could switch back without losing everything, then I think TiVo would see what the installed base thinks of the Hydra.
> 
> *MSO's have a easier time forcing change on their customers. TiVo has always had a base that voted with their wallets which is why, in the past, they had the best DVR experience in the industry.*
> ...


The bolded and underlined part is the most important as the loyal retail customer base for TiVo has been shrinking for years and the MSO side of the business is growing rapidly. I remember Ira stating the reason for the design of the Bolt is all TiVo DVRs look the same and it was time to break that mold. TiVo always lagged behind the competition in bringing new features to market. Moxi had a HD UI back in 2009 and also had client boxes and 3 tuner DVRs at that time. Windows Media Center had multiple tuners and client boxes even before that.
I preferred these other devices over TiVo and ended up with TiVo because I own my two CablCards and in order for them to stay active on my system I bought TiVos as they are the last devices to use them. I actually never liked the TiVo UI as it seemed very clumsy and less polished. Also I never used a device that had so many bugs.
TiVo does have to move on from its past in order to stay relevant in this industry. I suspect that some of you loyalist will be left behind and it is maybe a better move for TiVo if this will increase there install base with new customers, especially the MSOs. If TiVo can't increase sagging retail ownership with new customers then I believe that this will be the end of the line for this division of TiVo. Remember Hydra is a completely new UI and not a refresh of the old UI so don't expect the same features of the old one.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

TonyD79 said:


> You don't have to leave live tv to use any guide on tivo.


No but you do crompromise the full image.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> The bolded and underlined part is the most important as the loyal retail customer base for TiVo has been shrinking for years and the MSO side of the business is growing rapidly.


I'm puzzled why the MSO part of the business is growing. Recording HD content is a legacy business.

"Super Bowl LI, Fox will only be broadcasting the game in 720p HD" This is part of the problem. Fox is using 4K and 8K cameras which will produce a very high quality 720p picture but 4K content is a "not this year" according to

Super Bowl LI to be Shot in Stunning 4K and 8K With 360 Degree Views -


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> If you use any of the guides in the two UIs it will squeeze live TV into a small window. With the current "Live Guide" idea it just overlays the lower half of the live TV channel.


Which means you lose some of the screen.

Trade off. You still do not exit live tv when you use the regular guide. But you do see it all even if smaller.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

Jed1 said:


> If you use any of the guides in the two UIs it will squeeze live TV into a small window. With the current "Live Guide" idea it just overlays the lower half of the live TV channel.


Not true. If you hit "Select" in Gen3 while watching Live TV, you get the Mini Grid Guide which also overlays only the lower half of the live screen. And it has similar functionality as the Gen4 Up arrow guide that you described except for three stations instead of one (and no ugly tiles).


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

idksmy said:


> Criminal? Really?


Well, he didn't say it was "literally" criminal.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> My question is what are any of you Live Guide users gonna do if TiVo leaves this as is?


Upgrade to gen3.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Who are these MSO's we keep hearing about? What Cable company's are using Tivo's?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

schatham said:


> What Cable company's are using Tivo's?


Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question? I am not aware that Tivo publishes this info. They probably consider the complete list confidential.

Here's one MSO who does.


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## TivoJD (Feb 8, 2005)

schatham said:


> Who are these MSO's we keep hearing about? What Cable company's are using Tivo's?


There are at least 6 listed on the wikipedia page.

TiVo digital video recorders - Wikipedia


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

idksmy said:


> Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question?


Off the top of my head, I would imagine anyone who is a subscriber of one of the companies. Or anyone who knows the answer. Or anyone with access to Google.

I believe suddenLink does, at least in some areas. This article appears to agree.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

idksmy said:


> Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question? I am not aware that Tivo publishes this info. They probably consider the complete list confidential.
> 
> Here's one MSO who does.


Why would this be confidential? It's like saying Apple won't tell anyone what carrier uses the Iphone. It would be obvious if a cable company offered a Tivo.

"Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question?"

I see lots of posts about how Tivo has many more MSO subscribers. So where are they?


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

schatham said:


> Why would this be confidential? It's like saying Apple won't tell anyone what carrier uses the Iphone. It would be obvious if a cable company offered a Tivo.


Try another analogy that's actually applicable.

And if it's not confidential, please list all the MSOs that use Tivos.


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

stile99 said:


> Off the top of my head, I would imagine anyone who is a subscriber of one of the companies. Or anyone who knows the answer. Or anyone with access to Google.
> 
> I believe suddenLink does, at least in some areas. This article appears to agree.


schatham doesn't have access to google or just wants someone else to do the search?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

schatham said:


> Who are these MSO's we keep hearing about? What Cable company's are using Tivo's?





idksmy said:


> Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question? I am not aware that Tivo publishes this info. They probably consider the complete list confidential.
> 
> Here's one MSO who does.


Before TiVo was bought out by Rovi there used to be a list of most of them on TiVo's web site, now people would need to list them from memory. The last time someone posted user data from a TiVo annual report there were less then 1 million TiVo owned subs (us) and over 5 million cable owned subs. Not sure if that counted foreign cable companies or cable companies using a non-TiVo made DVRs running TiVo software.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

schatham said:


> Why would this be confidential? It's like saying Apple won't tell anyone what carrier uses the Iphone. It would be obvious if a cable company offered a Tivo.
> 
> "Who, on this forum, do you think can answer this question?"
> 
> I see lots of posts about how Tivo has many more MSO subscribers. So where are they?


Some post here now and then, but I am guessing that most are just renting the DVR their cable company has available and not searching out TiVo User Support forums. After all if they have a problem they just call their cable company.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

What's the difference between live guide and grid guide?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Welshdog said:


> What's the difference between live guide and grid guide?


Judging by the length of this thread, quite a bit. Hit Guide on the remote. Hit "A". Select a different Style.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Welshdog said:


> What's the difference between live guide and grid guide?


-Live guide lets me easily scroll through 2 weeks of PBS programs to pick out one of a kind shows that only air once a year.
-Let's me scroll through 2 weeks of other channels, like Comedy Central, that have specials that again are only aired a few times a year. 
-Let's me scroll through dozens of episodes on a channel to find new episodes. Despite my being able to pick out new, my 1P records a lot more than new. On a series with 10 years of episodes, I don't want them to clog up my HD and I don't want to manually delete them before they are recorded.
-To pick out news shows that have a special feature once a week but are proceeded by live sports that may run over by 30 minutes, an hour or more. I pad the show excessively so I can get the feature I want. No live sports before the show? Just a few minutes of padding.
-To make sure the start of a new season records. My season pass for Amazing Race was not scheduled to record last year, because it was Amazing Race 29. I manually selected Amazing Race 29 to record and then made a 1P out of it. I'm guessing it might be Amazing Race 30 this year, or Amazing Race or The Amazing Race...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I think the question wasn’t asking for an endorsement but what they are. 

Live guide is the one that has current shows for multiple channels in the left and multiple shows for the active channel in the right going into the future. 

Grid guide is a channel by time matrix showing current and some future for multiple channels at once. It is like the grids you see in newspapers.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Example of grid guide can be seen on many web sites. Is there an example of live guide somewhere? Even a picture posted on the forum would be good.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

JoeKustra said:


> Example of grid guide can be seen on many web sites. Is there an example of live guide somewhere? Even a picture posted on the forum would be good.


It's been posted a few times already in this thread:


DancnDude said:


> Let's look at how many clicks it would take:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks for the descriptions and how to find it. I need to show this to my wife. Don't think either of us knew grid guide existed. We don't use live guide very much so this may not be a big deal for her. I'm holding off changing to Hydra because other Tivo features ARE a big deal to her and I don't want create problems. 

Any word on how long we can keep the current OS before we are forced to use Hydra?


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

Here are three guide examples. All showing the same channel at the same time.

Gen3 Live Guide








Hydra Grid Guide








TiVo App Guide









The Live guide is shows the current program and explores the details of the selected channel.
Personally, I prefer the live guide. for this reason and because it is easier on the eyes.
- Rich


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

The live guide is easily one of the Best Innovations TiVo Introduced, And definitely is easier on the eyes. Come On TiVo Lets bring the Live Guide Back!!!!

Hail Hydra


Jack


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Jed1 said:


> My question is what are any of you Live Guide users gonna do if TiVo leaves this as is?


Until they say they are not going to support Series 4 or below (a long way off, I think), there should be a Gen3.

I do not understand this MSO thing. Didn't we pay DEARLY for our equipment and service, all to be at the mercy of the not so smart designers at Tivo, Inc?

I DO want a bigger video window and the final demise of the ridiculous audio dropout going in and out of Tivo Central (don't understand why they cannot fix this in Gen3), and of course Voice Command, but not this monstrosity Gen4 X1 look-a-like.

Just my opinion...


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

samccfl99 said:


> Until they say they are not going to support Series 4 or below (a long way off, I think), there should be a Gen3.
> 
> I do not understand this MSO thing. Didn't we pay DEARLY for our equipment and service, all to be at the mercy of the not so smart designers at Tivo, Inc?
> 
> ...


The MSOs were driving TiVo sales long before they were bought up by Rovi. The retail side was still dropping customers, DVR patents expiring in 2018, so TiVo had to step up with new software as there was no where to go on the hardware side. So they started down the road to the new UI in 2014 and that involved feedback from the MSOs and not really from the retail side.
Pulling Back the Curtain on the Latest Generation TiVo UI - TiVo Blog
Tivo's Next Generation User Experience - Demo
Notice that Margret is mainly speaking about MSO operators.

Rovi (once known as Gemstar/TV Guide International was a UI/data business that originally started out embedding their guides in consumer products then seen their business grow mainly due to the need from MSOs for UI and guide data. Their legacy MSO guides, iGuide and PassPort Echo, are in use in more than half of the homes in the US, so it made sense for them to buy up TiVo as they needed a new UI to sell to their clients.
As for us retail owners, I think we are just providing them with very cheap beta testing in order to get this new guide up to speed as it is starting to roll out in a number of cable systems.

One division of my cable system is rolling it out very shortly in new Arris hardware and will replace the old Moxi UI in older Arris hardware so this is not just for UHD. So all the growth forward will come mainly from MSOs.
Press Release | TiVo
Some key phrases in this press release.


> "TiVo's next generation solution offers an advanced, graphically-rich and personalized user experience that our customers will love and enjoy both at home and on the go," said John M. Walson, president, Service Electric Cable TV, Inc. "Service Electric remains committed to the advancement of innovation, and we're thrilled to be bringing our customers the very best in entertainment."
> *TiVo's solution enables Service Electric to provide current subscribers with a higher level of service, as well as attract new customers with a cutting-edge pay-TV service.*


We already know from Ted's statements that the old UI will be locked down and no longer upgraded or patched and all efforts will be with the new UI going forward. I suspect that if retail sales don't pick up and a number of legacy users don't upgrade to Hydra then the retail side will be left go. So the choice is simple, either get on board with the new UI or stick with the old UI and face the possible abandonment of the retail division. Then you laggards can use your expensive devices as boat anchors or door stops.
Oh it is worth mentioning, the X1 platform is actually a Gemstar/Rovi design that was called Total Guide. This is what the lawsuit is all about with Comcast and TiVo/Rovi. The new grid guide in Hydra is very similar to the grid guide that they developed for Total Guide almost 8 years ago. They also came up with the expanded search feature at that time as they called it six degrees of search.
It will be the customers of MSOs that will be driving what features will be available in the new UI going forward as that is where future revenues will be coming from and not retail.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

^ If the retail side is "left go" it is not due the recalcitrant retail TiVo customers; it is due to TiVo's inability to lure them onto the new platform. That’s not the way I see it.

Hydra needs some tweaks/options to ease transition to the new platform. It’s 90% there. Improve the guide and My Shows and I think it will be in good shape.

- Rich


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

The FCC's failure to require a cable card replacement was the beginning of the end for retail TiVos fpr cable. It looks like Comcast will be the first QAM cable provider that currently supports cable card to transition to IPTV cable, once that occurs they will no longer have to support TiVos, with the best case scenario being that they provide an app. We may still be several years from that happening but if TiVo wants to stay in the DVR business they will need to be a supplier to MSOs because without some Government regulation changes there will come a point in time where the only retail DVRs TiVo will be able to sell will be for OTA use.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

samccfl99 said:


> ...all to be at the mercy of the not so smart designers at Tivo, Inc?...


I get confused sometimes... Was Margaret the second coming of Jesus or was she a not-so-smart designer?


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

ah30k said:


> I get confused sometimes... Was Margaret the second coming of Jesus or was she a not-so-smart designer?


I had emailed her Once. When I was working with my contact in ERT (way in the past), one of the things that really ticked me off (and still does), is that when you are in a multiple recordings Folder (talking about Gen3), the position of a recording in Every folder would wind up at the top whenever you went into another recording in another folder. This is very inconvenient if you have many recordings (say the whole series of Murphy Brown and Night Court, which I have and you lose which episode you are on). I convinced her that there was a Global Pointer (only one) for the use for all folders. She took it to L2/L3 and in a few months a miracle occurred (in 20.4.6 on 02-03-2015 to be exact...I keep a log). They fixed it. Almost. They did not put a pointer in each folder in the database. Instead, I found out that they just decided to put this into Cache, SO when you reboot, ALL folders are set to position ONE again. Now anyone who has Netflix and watches a series, Knows that it Always keeps the position of what episode you are on for ALL series. So I emailed Margret to ask her why they went to the trouble to fix it and NOT make it permanent. She replied:

*Hi Mr. S-------(took out my last name),

I understand that there are behaviors of our product that you are unhappy with. However, I do not expect any of the specific items you have mentioned to change in the near-term.

-Margret
*
and that was that. I wonder if this has been fixed the correct way in Gen4? Also I guess they still don't think the year is important for recordings...Or have they (I doubt it on both)?

*Sorry, but you did mention Margret, did you not? LOL.*


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ah30k said:


> I get confused sometimes... Was Margaret the second coming of Jesus or was she a not-so-smart designer?


Dude.. neither comment is appropriate, 
She was very good to us for a long time and earned our respect, neither of your comments shows that.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

atmuscarella said:


> The FCC's failure to require a cable card replacement was the beginning of the end for retail TiVos fpr cable. It looks like Comcast will be the first QAM cable provider that currently supports cable card to transition to IPTV cable, once that occurs they will no longer have to support TiVos, with the best case scenario being that they provide an app. We may still be several years from that happening but if TiVo wants to stay in the DVR business they will need to be a supplier to MSOs because without some Government regulation changes there will come a point in time where the only retail DVRs TiVo will be able to sell will be for OTA use.


This is not a failure of CableCards or the inability to find a replacement it is plainly the vast majority of the population is just not interested in what a really tiny, tiny minority of people want when it comes to TV. Most just want to watch their shows or their channels and that is it. They don't care what the UI looks like, or the guide, or even the picture quality, they just care that it works when they want it to. Also they are not going to pay hundreds, or worse, thousands of dollars to have devices like TiVo's. It is just easier and less complicated for TiVo to lease their UI to MSO's than deal with consumers.
As for Cable Cards, the biggest failure was the idea was implemented way before the vast majority of people even considered buying HDTVs. I bought my first HD set back in 2004 and I was the only person to use CableCard on my system for a number of years. To compound the issue the Cards were only available in expensive high end sets. It wasn't until 2009 that the vast majority of Americans decided to buy HDTV sets as most were confused by the need to have a digital TV because of the OTA analog shutdown. But by that time no CE TV manufacturer was offering CableCards in their TVs anymore. That just left the CableCard to boutique type of users that played around with WMC, Moxi, and TiVo. And both Moxi and WMC were abandoned a few years later. When Arris bought Moxi for 20 million in cash, there was around 6000 actual retail owners who owned multiple retail Moxi devices.
The last numbers TiVo reported for retail there was around 950,000 TiVo *DEVICES*, including Minis, that were in use. Since a large number of retail owners have more than one TiVo in their home the actual number of homes in the US for retail is quit low, around 200,000 at best. Compared to the MSO side of the business where there was over *6 million homes* that had a TiVo powered device in it. If you figure that those MSO powered TiVos used client boxes the actual number of devices in use on the MSO side is somewhere around 20 million.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

RichB said:


> ^ If the retail side is "left go" it is not due the recalcitrant retail TiVo customers; it is due to TiVo's inability to lure them onto the new platform. That's not the way I see it.
> 
> Hydra needs some tweaks/options to ease transition to the new platform. It's 90% there. Improve the guide and My Shows and I think it will be in good shape.
> 
> - Rich


How many actual retail owners is there? The last retail number TiVo reported before Rovi bought them was around 950,000 *devices*, which includes minis. TiVo never reported the actual number of retail owners which I figure is around 200,000 since most owners have multiple devices in their homes. The MSOs that have TiVo powered devices was reported in actual users, which was a little over 6 million homes.
Also Rovi/TiVo doesn't care what way you or I see things as they have to contend with shareholders and the way they see things.
Right now TiVo only wants us to focus on bugs and not some features a very, very tiny number of users want. And on top of that it will be what the customers of the MSOs, that are now the biggest install base of TiVo UI users, and what they care about will take precedent to what retail owners care about.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> This is not a failure of CableCards or the inability to find a replacement it is plainly the vast majority of the population is just not interested in what a really tiny, tiny minority of people want when it comes to TV. Most just want to watch their shows or their channels and that is it. They don't care what the UI looks like, or the guide, or even the picture quality, they just care that it works when they want it to. Also they are not going to pay hundreds, or worse, thousands of dollars to have devices like TiVo's. It is just easier and less complicated for TiVo to lease their UI to MSO's than deal with consumers.
> As for Cable Cards, the biggest failure was the idea was implemented way before the vast majority of people even considered buying HDTVs. I bought my first HD set back in 2004 and I was the only person to use CableCard on my system for a number of years. To compound the issue the Cards were only available in expensive high end sets. It wasn't until 2009 that the vast majority of Americans decided to buy HDTV sets as most were confused by the need to have a digital TV because of the OTA analog shutdown. But by that time no CE TV manufacturer was offering CableCards in their TVs anymore. That just left the CableCard to boutique type of users that played around with WMC, Moxi, and TiVo. And both Moxi and WMC were abandoned a few years later. When Arris bought Moxi for 20 million in cash, there was around 6000 actual retail owners who owned multiple retail Moxi devices.
> The last numbers TiVo reported for retail there was around 950,000 TiVo *DEVICES*, including Minis, that were in use. Since a large number of retail owners have more than one TiVo in their home the actual number of homes in the US for retail is quit low, around 200,000 at best. Compared to the MSO side of the business where there was over *6 million homes* that had a TiVo powered device in it. If you figure that those MSO powered TiVos used client boxes the actual number of devices in use on the MSO side is somewhere around 20 million.


While I tend to agree with your over all analysis of where we are now and have referred to the stand alone DVR market as a niche market for years. It didn't have to be this way.

Basically the pay TV providers got there way and the FCC gave up. The first FCC failure was when they exempted the Satellite providers which destroyed what should have been a primary driver of third party DVRs. Which was the ability to switch pay TV providers and to continue to use the same DVR by just switching the type of tuners (via USB or Network attached). The second and third FCC failures were when they again exempted IPTV cable providers and allowed QAM cable providers to not make VoD available to cable card users along with allowing SDV. Then the FCC allowed the Pay TV providers to drag out the whole process of coming up with a downloadable software replacement to cable cards that should have forced the Satellite companies and IPTV providers into allowing third part DVRs.

If the FCC had forced a software solution/replacement to cable cards and forced a full implementation (required all pay TV providers to support it regardless of delivery system) several years ago things could have been very different. But we will never know.

In the end we are where we are and without the MSO side of TiVo's business either TiVo would already be out of the stand alone DVR business or they would be getting out of it very soon.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

atmuscarella said:


> While I tend to agree with your over all analysis of where we are now and have referred to the stand alone DVR market as a niche market for years. It didn't have to be this way.
> 
> Basically the pay TV providers got there way and the FCC gave up. The first FCC failure was when they exempted the Satellite providers which destroyed what should have been a primary driver of third party DVRs. Which was the ability to switch pay TV providers and to continue to use the same DVR by just switching the type of tuners (via USB or Network attached). The second and third FCC failures were when they again exempted IPTV cable providers and allowed QAM cable providers to not make VoD available to cable card users along with allowing SDV. Then the FCC allowed the Pay TV providers to drag out the whole process of coming up with a downloadable software replacement to cable cards that should have forced the Satellite companies and IPTV providers into allowing third part DVRs.
> 
> ...


While I do agree that consumers should have the option to buy their own equipment, the problem is how many average Americans will do so as previously these tend to be very expensive options. Also cable/satellite system are privately owned closed loop systems and don't use the public air waves and really don't receive much public monies for their operations. So the FCC really has limited control over these businesses.
I totally agree with you last sentence that without the MSOs and the victory with the patent lawsuits, TiVo would be long gone. Or would be on their way out with out the MSOs once the patent expires next year.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Jed1 said:


> While I do agree that consumers should have the option to buy their own equipment, the problem is how many average Americans will do so as previously these tend to be very expensive options. Also cable/satellite system are privately owned closed loop systems and don't use the public air waves and really don't receive much public monies for their operations. So the FCC really has limited control over these businesses.
> I totally agree with you last sentence that without the MSOs and the victory with the patent lawsuits, TiVo would be long gone. Or would be on their way out with out the MSOs once the patent expires next year.


Satellite signals travel through the public air waves and are regulated by the Government just like everything else using air waves. The satellite companies were covered under the legislation that create cable cards, they just got the FCC to give them a waver and were not required to comply with the law.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Tivo focusing on Hydra and leaving gen 3 alone is a good thing for gen 3. I like the idea of no more updates. It works now and most updates just caused problems anyway.

I'll keep my gen 3 until they pry it from me. The rest of you can have your "X1 boxes", I mean Tivo Hydra.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I've used the X1 box. Hydra is easily better. At least the non voice part.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Let’s just focus on live guide.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> While I do agree that consumers should have the option to buy their own equipment, the problem is how many average Americans will do so as previously these tend to be very expensive options


And yet they buy cell phones that now cost as much or even more. 

Scott


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> And yet they buy cell phones that now cost as much or even more.
> 
> Scott


Ya I have never believed people not buying TiVos was just a price thing. Many people spend allot of money renting DVRs and/or STBs. Many people just want something that someone else installs and maintains.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Buying a STB requires effort...you have to know it is an option, you have to find what devices are available, order it, install it and then deal with your service provider to get it activated (often easier said than done).

Renting from your provider requires no effort..they supply whatever box is needed, they often install it, and it comes preactivated. It is the option of least resistance. since buying our Roamios and Minis, and *after* breaking even on the hardware expense, we have saved over $1,800 in equipment rental fees. TiVo is the low cost option.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

HerronScott said:


> And yet they buy cell phones that now cost as much or even more.


To "youngsters" their world evolves around their cell phone. TV not so much as viewing continues to dive dramatically. Even an "old fart" like me has seen my viewing switch from 100% TV to roughly 50% with half of it being replaced with YouTube and other non DVR content.

As far as TiVo being "dead" without MSOs I think that's far from absolute. Heck there are several OTA (only) DVR companies which have been around for years and they have nowhere near the market share. It's all how you structure the company going forward in this case...

To be on topic don't bother bringing the Live Guide back... I tried it over a decade ago for two minutes and that was that...


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Charles R said:


> To be on topic don't bother bringing the Live Guide back... I tried it over a decade ago for two minutes and that was that...


We really need a "dislike" button on this forum.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

HerronScott said:


> And yet they buy cell phones that now cost as much or even more.
> 
> Scott


Well up until recently the cell phone providers made the phones easy to buy as they included the price of the phone in a low monthly payment and also made it easy to keep upgrading to newer phones by offering low monthly payments. Also there is numerous places to buy cell phones as they are practically everywhere. 
Buying a TiVo is not so easy as they are only available in a handful of places. Also the process to getting one and then activating it, getting a CableCard and having it paired properly, the need to have internet service just to begin to use it is just too complicated for most Americans. The same for WMC, Moxi, etc.
Now if you can buy one at Walmart for under a $100, bring it home, attach your cable feed, plug it in, and then use it then I suspect there would be TiVos everywhere. With cable/sat STBs, they bring it to your home, install it, and get it up and running with no effort on behalf of the user. Also if they don't want it anymore or can not afford the service then they just hand it back and at no cost to them. If it breaks the cable/sat company will bring a new one to your home and remove the broken one at no cost to you. Also it all comes with a tidy low monthly fee. No fuss no muss.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> Let's just focus on live guide.


Yes. I had to check the thread I got into. This is the Live Guide thread.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

JACKASTOR said:


> Let's just focus on live guide.





TonyD79 said:


> Yes. I had to check the thread I got into. This is the Live Guide thread.


There really isn't much to actually say about the live guide issue. People who like it would like it added to Hydra, others don't care. The pole at the beginning really covers all that needs to be said, all the bantering about which is better or what ever is pretty much worthless, like discussing if red is a better color than blue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Blue is better


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Jed1 said:


> Now if you can buy one at Walmart for under a $100, bring it home, attach your cable feed, plug it in,


Thanks to TCF, I did pay $100 for my Roamio but at Best Buy, bring it home, ... It was up and running quickly, including the Live Guide. I still kick myself for not buying a second one for a backup.


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## tivobw (Oct 26, 2002)

JACKASTOR said:


> Just Curious about how many of us Want the Live guide Option back.
> Yes I think its a reasonable option that could be added easily enough.
> 
> So lets find out How many of Us Want Live Guide Back!
> ...


I want it back!


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## SVO (Jan 13, 2008)

WANT IT BACK


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## JoelH1965 (Jun 22, 2009)

I want it back please.


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## razter (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes, I believe it would be great to have it back and much prefer it over grid.


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## Jackamus (Sep 20, 2010)

Bring back the Live Guide!


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Surprisingly I have not missed the live guide. After using it for over fifteen years I adjusted quickly to using my TiVos without it.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

From what few demos I’ve seen here or on Youtube, Hydra looks just like the crappy Cox Contour / Comcast xfiniti dvr’s, which I find are really unintuitive, take way to long to maneuver, and waste perfectly good, visual real estate. Filling the space with big, bright shiny boxes is great if you’re looking for that kind of thing, but I’m not looking to get turned-on by a TV guide system. I’m looking for shows, rec times, alternate dates, info on actors, CC and 5.1 info.
If the two column view and live guide are gone, it may finally be time to say “goodbye” to Tivo.
Do they realize the layout was primarily the reason A LOT of us bought Tivo’s in the first place?
Any crappy dvr can record TV. Only the Tivo allowed us to do it differently, quickly, easily. Baffled.
As long as Hydra isn’t ‘forced’ on us, then fine.


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## tivobw (Oct 26, 2002)

tvmaster2 said:


> From what few demos I've seen here or on Youtube, Hydra looks just like the crappy Cox Contour / Comcast xfiniti dvr's, which I find are really unintuitive, take way to long to maneuver, and waste perfectly good, visual real estate. Filling the space with big, bright shiny boxes is great if you're looking for that kind of thing, but I'm not looking to get turned-on by a TV guide system. I'm looking for shows, rec times, alternate dates, info on actors, CC and 5.1 info.
> If the two column view and live guide are gone, it may finally be time to say "goodbye" to Tivo.
> Do they realize the layout was primarily the reason A LOT of us bought Tivo's in the first place?
> Any crappy dvr can record TV. Only the Tivo allowed us to do it differently, quickly, easily. Baffled.
> As long as Hydra isn't 'forced' on us, then fine.


I agree 100%! Well put!

My wife and I have enjoyed using Tivos since the late '90s. This recent upgrade has caused us a lot of frustration (we're having to "re-learn" Tivo, which would be OK if we could see the benefit, but we don't really see it, yet; and the smaller font size is annoying; oh and the loss of the live guide is a major pain point).

Comcast offers us free X1s for our service but we have refused, instead paying Tivo tens of dollars each month for multiple Tivos, while paying Comcast for cable card rental fees as well. We have done this gladly month after month for years, as we very much enjoyed the interface and performance of Tivo. This latest upgrade has us shaking our heads. We wish we could roll back to the prior version, but alas, we cannot! We are trapped with this ``Hydra'' which is quite unfortunate. I am not sure how this ever got out of beta testing. Was it tested on ``real'' Tivo users before release? Based on the number of frustrated posts I have seen, it sure seems like it wasn't.

For now we are continuing to use Tivo since we really hope improvements are made to Hydra. If we don't see improvements after some time, we may say farewell to Tivo and just use whatever Comcast offers for free.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

tivobw said:


> I agree 100%! Well put!
> 
> My wife and I have enjoyed using Tivos since the late '90s. This recent upgrade has caused us a lot of frustration (we're having to "re-learn" Tivo, which would be OK if we could see the benefit, but we don't really see it, yet; and the smaller font size is annoying; oh and the loss of the live guide is a major pain point).
> 
> ...


I'm starting to seriously wonder if Tivo WANTS us to defect. Maybe they've made a big, backroom deal with all the cable co.'s to supply the interface for their rental boxes, and the cable co.'s want us to dump TiVo in favor of their crappy rental devices. There's really no, LOGICAL reason TiVo would kill what has made so many of us paying customers, unless the only logic is complete illogic. Where's Spock, I'm getting a headache...


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

tivobw said:


> This latest upgrade has us shaking our heads. We wish we could roll back to the prior version, but alas, we cannot! We are trapped with this ``Hydra'' which is quite unfortunate. I am not sure how this ever got out of beta testing. Was it tested on ``real'' Tivo users before release? Based on the number of frustrated posts I have seen, it sure seems like it wasn't.


You can rollback to the gen3 interface but you will lose all recordings unless you can transfer them to another TiVo or to a PC.

Scott


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

Without the Live Guide, my current TiVo models will be my last models. Sad because I was thinking of upgrading to a Bolt Vox to enjoy 4K on my TiVo. I bought TiVo originally for the DVR functionality many years ago. The Live Guide was simply icing on the cake. Never liked the grid guide- it wasn't as useful to me as the Live Guide. If I wanted a DVR with a grid guide, I can get that from Comcast's STBs.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

Bighouse said:


> Without the Live Guide, my current TiVo models will be my last models. Sad because I was thinking of upgrading to a Bolt Vox to enjoy 4K on my TiVo. I bought TiVo originally for the DVR functionality many years ago. The Live Guide was simply icing on the cake. Never liked the grid guide- it wasn't as useful to me as the Live Guide. If I wanted a DVR with a grid guide, I can get that from Comcast's STBs.


If Comcast would get it's Trillion Dollar head out of it's A$$ and make all tuners buffer, _maybe it might_ be a viable alternative for some. My friend has an X1 and it sucks compared to Gen3. Gen4 on the other hand is more like the X1. *Not For Me! Yet...*


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## Hamstring (Feb 13, 2007)

I used the live guide lot and wish it was there. Now I use the vox to get what’s on a channel for the day or the month It pops up on the bottom to scroll through.


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## johnfasc (Dec 24, 2014)

Live guide....if it matters anymore


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> If Comcast would get it's Trillion Dollar head out of it's A$$ and make all tuners buffer, _maybe it might_ be a viable alternative for some. My friend has an X1 and it sucks compared to Gen3. Gen4 on the other hand is more like the X1. *Not For Me! Yet...*


I am stunned that Comcast has only one buffer on X1. Show the last 10 channels tuned but no buffers. Even the crappy fios box buffers the most recent channel.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I won't willingly switch to Hydra without a Live Guide.


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## walkerism (Aug 16, 2001)

Hamstring said:


> I used the live guide lot and wish it was there. Now I use the vox to get what's on a channel for the day or the month It pops up on the bottom to scroll through.


How do you do that withe vox?


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## razter (Oct 9, 2011)

nrc said:


> I won't willingly switch to Hydra without a Live Guide.


Me either! Tried using Hydra on my Bolt and my wife's Bolt, but after three weeks of use, we both decided that we would be much happier with the old interface and Live Guide and switched back and are very happy with our decision.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

*TED*, if you see this maybe you can find out if Tivo is planning on putting the Live Guide back into Gen4. As you can see, many people either rolled back or plain refuse to go to Gen4 without it. I know Tivo, Inc loves its secrets, but I think this question needs to be answered.

*THANKS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR (will it be for Tivo Owners???)*


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## MikeChrisPhil (Sep 2, 2013)

I am still looking for where the guide names are called out. I have had Bolt (hydra) for a few weeks now. I want the guide that was native to Premier. Left column shows channel and right column scrolls DOWN into the future. 

The Bolt guide requires side scrolling on the channel into infinity. Bad cheap cable box design. The what’s on now will overlay live tv by cursor up and over but all that is just a cheap party trick. My main reason for DVRing anything is to record stuff when I’m not home. I can’t see my favorite networks at a glance and scroll two weeks into the future much easier by paging down and browsing


BRING IT BACK. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

samccfl99 said:


> *TED*, if you see this maybe you can find out if Tivo is planning on putting the Live Guide back into Gen4. As you can see, many people either rolled back or plain refuse to go to Gen4 without it. I know Tivo, Inc loves its secrets, but I think this question needs to be answered.
> 
> *THANKS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR (will it be for Tivo Owners???)*


Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.

As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.


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## mike246 (Jul 22, 2016)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.
> 
> As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.
> 
> ...


This looks like the same crap you get on the smart bar. I doubt that people who want the Live Guide would rather have more visuals taking up more room and providing less information. That may be good for the reading impaired, but really shows the disregard Tivo seems to have for existing customers. "_*Simplicity*_ is the ultimate sophistication." - Apple 1977


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

Thanks for the update Ted. Looks good to me and I am not visually impaired and have also been a long time TiVo customer.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.
> 
> As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update and being honest with us. I may give Hydra another go after some additional updates you guys make but like some other users, Live Guide is so integral to how I use my TiVo it seems unlikely I would make the switch permanent.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mike246 said:


> This looks like the same crap you get on the smart bar. I doubt that people who want the Live Guide would rather have more visuals taking up more room and providing less information. That may be good for the reading impaired, but really shows the disregard Tivo seems to have for existing customers. "_*Simplicity*_ is the ultimate sophistication." - Apple 1977


This is the problem with the whole Hydra UI in my opinion. It's all form over function. It looks nice, but it's much harder to use. I understand the desire to create something that looks nicer and more modern, but if it's more difficult to use then what's the point? Just so you can have some fancy screen shots to show investors?

Ted.... I really hope one of the things you plan to address is the inconsistency in the UI. One of the things that bugs me most about Hydra is the inconsistent use of horizontal vs vertical scrolling. In my opinion horizontal show ALWAYS be used to change/filter a list and vertical should ALWAYS be used to select an option from that list. In some places you have actual options on horizontal lists and it just ruins the usability.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

sangs said:


> Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


It's not just the change. It's the fact that the new UI is less usable. It looks fine. And I can get use to using the back button and select rather then right/left. But some of the screens are just less usable then their counterparts in the old UI. It's like they got a new toy (the thumbnail carousel) and just abused it, most of the time to the detriment of usability. There are also the UI inconsistencies I mentioned above which make using the UI annoying.

I don't mind change. In fact I quite like the look of the new UI. But after having it for a while I can't stand actually using it.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

sangs said:


> Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


There is a very, VERY huge difference between "I don't like this because it is different" and "I don't like this because major functionality has been lost".


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

stile99 said:


> There is a very, VERY huge difference between "I don't like this because it is different" and "I don't like this because major functionality has been lost".


Agreed, but this is a fluid situation. It's not as if they're done tweaking or updating Hydra. Give it time.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

sangs said:


> Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


Your amusing, I hate to break it to you but "today's consumers" are anyone who buys stuff, which is all of us - also given we are talking about data on screens we all prefer visuals over having nothing on the screen. If someone prefers graphics over text for information delivery in a menu is another matter and certainly user specific, but my guess is most people like both just to varying degrees.

Regarding liking or not liking change my guess is that for most people it depends on if the change is positive or negative. When it comes to a UI my concern is usability, with Hydra the question is fairly simple does it improve my TiVo's usability or not. I tried it on a unit without a voice remote and the answer was simple Hydra decreased usability for me. I do not think change that makes a companies product less enjoyable and harder to use is a good idea, that said with voice support and future updates TiVo may make Hydra into something that is positive change, but only time will tell.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

atmuscarella said:


> Your amusing, I hate to break it to you but "today's consumers" are anyone who buys stuff, which is all of us - also given we are talking about data on screens we all prefer visuals over having nothing on the screen. If someone prefers graphics over text for information delivery in a menu is another matter and certainly user specific, but my guess is most people like both just to varying degrees.
> 
> Regarding liking or not liking change my guess is that for most people it depends on if the change is positive or negative. When it comes to a UI my concern is usability, with Hydra the question is fairly simple does it improve my TiVo's usability or not. I tried it on a unit without a voice remote and the answer was simple Hydra decreased usability for me. I do not think change that makes a companies product less enjoyable and harder to use is a good idea, that said with voice support and future updates TiVo may make Hydra into something that is positive change, but only time will tell.


*You're*

I guess I meant the young folks (of which I am not, so we're clear), as they're the ones driving the bus of media consumption these days. And they like the visuals. They aren't going to care about a Live Guide missing, because - as I do - they'll just use the app for that function, as it exists perfectly there.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Ted,

Respectfully, Tivo should have listened from the very beginning. Instead they married themselves to Hydra's design and pushed it all the way through with the questionable results we have now. This is presumably to get something/anything out on schedule because fixing it is going to take another year at least.

This destroys the whole mythology of how Tivo ardently usertests their stuff.

The other thing that bugs me in the back button. I'm fine pressing a different button other than Left, but the Back button is straight up hard to find and I fat finger it constantly if I don't look first. To properly reflect its new importance, the Back button on Vox remotes should have been large and easy to find, not among the smallest buttons on the remote.

In any event, how about transfers? Still AWOL after February I'm guessing?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

sangs said:


> *You're*
> 
> I guess I meant the young folks (of which I am not, so we're clear), as they're the ones driving the bus of media consumption these days. And they like the visuals. They aren't going to care about a Live Guide missing, because - as I do - they'll just use the app for that function, as it exists perfectly there.


Ya except "young folks" who don't sub to cable or bother with OTA, don't buy DVRs. TiVo has to target the people who sub to a QAM cable provider and/or want to record OTA broadcasts, neither of which are the "hip" crowd or whatever the current correct term is. While I think having voice is likely a very good idea, the UI needs to be simple and work well, not sure I could say that about Hydra.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

sangs said:


> *You're*
> 
> I guess I meant the young folks (of which I am not, so we're clear), as they're the ones driving the bus of media consumption these days. And they like the visuals. They aren't going to care about a Live Guide missing, because - as I do - they'll just use the app for that function, as it exists perfectly there.


Young people aren't buying TiVos at all. They're not even subscribing to cable. They're content with paying $12/mo for Netflix and watching free Youtube videos. The DVR is never going to appeal to young people no matter how much they change the UI. It's a dying technology that will eventually be replaced by OTT/VOD apps. The only reason TiVo is hanging on is because of a loyal base of users. (i.e. Us) They should be catering to those users instead of trying to appeal to some nonexistent new user.


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## Nickipedia (Jul 18, 2015)

Dan203 said:


> It's not just the change. It's the fact that the new UI is less usable. It looks fine. And I can get use to using the back button and select rather then right/left. But some of the screens are just less usable then their counterparts in the old UI. It's like they got a new toy (the thumbnail carousel) and just abused it, most of the time to the detriment of usability. There are also the UI inconsistencies I mentioned above which make using the UI annoying.
> 
> I don't mind change. In fact I quite like the look of the new UI. But after having it for a while I can't stand actually using it.


Exactly. The inconsistencies and lack of working, simple features have turned Hydra into Vista. I can't stand it either.

Hydra is like buying a new car. It's radio is voice controlled with a flashy screen and the car looks nice. But after a couple months you learn the car can only travel at half the speed of your old one, power windows have been replaced with one crank window in the back passenger seat, and the headlights only work if the trunk is open. Plus the navigation system only shows you the 700 mile trip in the next (4) 1/2 mile increments. Oh, and if you need fuel, it's easy. You just pull into a station, hook up the hose, then go to a obsolete website and request the fuel be transferred from the station to the car. They even provide a nice spinning circle to watch until the car notifies you that "fuel transfer service is currently unavailable."

Don't worry though, If you tell the car to "show me Tom Cruise movies where he says 'show me the money'" it'll work just fine...

One question about Hydra: "Will it blend?"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Odd. I do not find Hydra harder to use or any more difficult in doing most tasks. In fact, many are easier (like captions, more info...which never worked on recordings at all...buffer changes). 

From what I gather after a bit of time is that the biggest downside for some is the lack of live guide. And I get that. But otherwise, it is actually more straight forward.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Ya except "young folks" who don't sub to cable or bother with OTA, don't buy DVRs. TiVo has to target the people who sub to a QAM cable provider and/or want to record OTA broadcasts, neither of which are the "hip" crowd or whatever the current correct term is....


The term "hip" is correct, as in, "I'm so old I need a new hip. And get off my lawn!"


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Young people aren't buying TiVos at all. They're not even subscribing to cable. They're content with paying $12/mo for Netflix and watching free Youtube videos. The DVR is never going to appeal to young people no matter how much they change the UI. It's a dying technology that will eventually be replaced by OTT/VOD apps. The only reason TiVo is hanging on is because of a loyal base of users. (i.e. Us) They should be catering to those users instead of trying to appeal to some nonexistent new user.


I agree in part, except the loyal user base is so small it's not profitable on its own. All the money is made in the MSO rentals, and they should be the ones steering the Rovi DVR ship. Hydra is a good sign that Rovi is still interested in attracting new MSO rental deals. The alternative is to shut it all down.

Also, the only reason the text-based live and grid guides existed at all is because in 1999 there wasn't enough CPU power and Internet bandwidth to support pretty pictures. Just look at your 1999 cell phone vs. your smartphone today. Your smartphone now uses icons for the majority of the navigation because it can. It is simpler to use even though it does more things. When Roku and Amazon Fire came out, they didn't even bother with a text-only interface because they could do pretty pictures right out of the gate.

Furthermore, as the population ages, it is more difficult for them to read text and easier for them to identify things using pictures. At least that's true of my 47-year-old eyes. So if most Tivo users are older than average, Hydra is a step in right direction even if the current implementation is clunky.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Hi, new to TiVo, got a Bolt last month and decided not to Roll Back, since as its new to me, might as well learn with the new UI, however, I'm a bit curios as to what the Live Guide looks like. Google Images didn't help — can someone post here what the Live Guide looks like?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> I'm a bit curios as to what the Live Guide looks like.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Tony_T said:


> Hi, new to TiVo, got a Bolt last month and decided not to Roll Back, since as its new to me, might as well learn with the new UI, however, I'm a bit curios as to what the Live Guide looks like. Google Images didn't help - can someone post here what the Live Guide looks like?


If you go to page 3 of this post there are pics of both the grid guide and live guide on the gen3/old UI.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks, that does look a lot cleaner than the big graphics with direction up in Live w/Hydra


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> When Roku and Amazon Fire came out, they didn't even bother with a text-only interface because they could do pretty pictures right out of the gate.


A mistake Roku obviously corrected, based on my usage.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

The idea that TiVo should cater to it's hardcore users would be a sure-fire way to chart the company on a path to eventual failure. The quickest way to bankrupt your company is to cater to people who obsess over things like 'Live Guide'. 

Not trying to bring new people means there is only one direction your customer base numbers can go -- southward. There are still people getting DVR's - but they are getting them from sources doing non-traditional things. Tablo, Plex DVR, Live Channels, etc ... are all doing fine. They do things differently than the older, traditional TiVo (and older pay-TV model users, in general). Those people prefer a graphical interface. The information contained in a graphic can convey more information about a show through it's marketing photo than by text alone. Now what would be useful is a way to scale the size of the graphics. Due to screen size - I can scale down the graphics in Plex, for example, and get much more program entries on screen than I could with a text-based system. Of course - some features that are thought of as important to an older crowd are less so with newer users. I'm closer in age to traditional viewers than those newer users, but with a greater acceptance to newer frameworks, I couldn't care less about live-TV pausing in a DVR anymore, for example, when my TV combined with a flash drive gives me pause capability. It's a feature in a DVR that has no more use for me. What I found does have great use is a platform-agnostic means to watch recordings. Roku, AppleTV, FireTV ... whatever. The ability to view recordings on any of those devices matters to me.

With the rumors that CES will show a hint at a future with cross-platform capability (possible with Hydra), TiVo may become more compelling again. It is my opinion that catering to the traditional base (which may be unavoidable due to TiVo's primary user-base of cable-TV customers) is responsible for holding TiVo back more than anything else. The last 3 recent reviews of TiVo that I read all made mention of it's aging interface and business model. One referenced it as feeling like 'going back in time' when compared to other options. The Street actually listed it as a failed technology that has now been passed by when compared to others. The hardcore loyalists will surely be throwing themselves on the floor rending their clothing at such a statement, but given that retail was nearly on the chopping block not that long ago gives a true impression of the adoption by new users. Again, my opinion is that TiVo may want to consider ditching the name altogether when moving to something true and innovative. The name itself is now being associated with an aging and out-of-touch model. Perhaps something with a new name that clearly differentiates itself from a Not-your-Grandpa's-TiVo would help disassociate itself from the traditional model.

Hydra didn't go far enough. It's greatest drawback is trying to retain elements to cater to the traditional demographic. Trying to marry those 2 worlds is likely not going to work. Keep the previous interface ... make it the interface for the cable partners ... create something new that fully embraces a modern design and functionality and give it a new name to distance itself from the traditional TiVo. (And take another look at the current subscription/lifetime model - which has very little appeal outside of the traditional cable TV model). This would refresh my interest in TiVo (which I used to love). It was the best option at the time and I am still very fond of the TiVo for it's role in starting me down a better (and cheaper) media path. I would love to see it transition to a more network-based, platform-agnostic solution with rich metadata that positions itself as something new and ground-breaking again.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Odd. I do not find Hydra harder to use or any more difficult in doing most tasks. In fact, many are easier (like captions, more info...which never worked on recordings at all...buffer changes).
> 
> From what I gather after a bit of time is that the biggest downside for some is the lack of live guide. And I get that. But otherwise, it is actually more straight forward.


Ditto. Hydra is so much easier to navigate. I guess if the Live Guide had been important to me, I'd be chafed, but it wasn't, especially since if I really want to use the Live Guide functionality I can do so with a simple tap of the finger in the App.


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## mike246 (Jul 22, 2016)

sangs said:


> Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


Like myself, I think most of the early users of Hydra were enthusiastic about trying it out. The disappointment is in the incredibly poor design. E.g., if you land on a title and there is only one item of that title, pressing play should .... play! The smart bar seems loaded with shows that are off the air and have no recordings. The guide which has been a staple of Tivo for years has been abandoned. There is no consistency in where you land after a recording completes. Over Christmas, for some reason the Tivo clock got off by 2 minutes and the end of all my recordings were truncated. Etc., etc., etc.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I was at my GFs house several days during the Holidays. Her TiVos are still running the HDUI. It was then I realized how much I actually missed using Hydra. Most things are much easier with Hydra than with the HDUI. I was really missing it when I was using her Roamios.

She is resistant to change so doesn't want to switch to Hydra. But it was also the same with for her with the SDUI. Once she finally switched to the HDUI, she liked it better than the SDUI. But it took her many years until she switched. So I don't expect her to switch to Hydra anytime soon. Unless she is forced to.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.
> 
> As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.
> 
> ...


While I don't intend to upgrade to Hydra, I'm a bit curious. Would there be a way to replace the tiles with text?

After thinking about this for a moment, I'd probably have the text format in the same horizontal position as the tiles. Except it would show something like the following:
8:30pm-9pm | 9:00pm-9:30pm | 9:30pm-10:00pm | 10:00pm-10:30pm |
Life in Pieces | doubt | Hawaii Five O | Zoo |
Poison Fire Teats Universe | Episode Title Here | Episode Title Here | Episode Title Here |
S2 E22 | S? E?? | S? E?? | S? E?? |
and so on...

Basically putting information stuff about the individual programs in the same space as where the titles would go. I don't know if that will format correctly when I post it. But I hope my idea will have gotten across.

Didn't format correctly. Think of it like postcards, but with text indicating bits of info.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

eherberg said:


> The idea that TiVo should cater to it's hardcore users would be a sure-fire way to chart the company on a path to eventual failure. The quickest way to bankrupt your company is to cater to people who obsess over things like 'Live Guide'.
> 
> Not trying to bring new people means there is only one direction your customer base numbers can go -- southward. There are still people getting DVR's - but they are getting them from sources doing non-traditional things. Tablo, Plex DVR, Live Channels, etc ... are all doing fine. They do things differently than the older, traditional TiVo (and older pay-TV model users, in general). Those people prefer a graphical interface. The information contained in a graphic can convey more information about a show through it's marketing photo than by text alone. Now what would be useful is a way to scale the size of the graphics. Due to screen size - I can scale down the graphics in Plex, for example, and get much more program entries on screen than I could with a text-based system. Of course - some features that are thought of as important to an older crowd are less so with newer users. I'm closer in age to traditional viewers than those newer users, but with a greater acceptance to newer frameworks, I couldn't care less about live-TV pausing in a DVR anymore, for example, when my TV combined with a flash drive gives me pause capability. It's a feature in a DVR that has no more use for me. What I found does have great use is a platform-agnostic means to watch recordings. Roku, AppleTV, FireTV ... whatever. The ability to view recordings on any of those devices matters to me.
> 
> ...


Regardless of who they're targeting the current version of Hydra is less usable then the old UI. It's not just that it's changed. It's that they made it harder to do things. Some simple examples.... When you go to the main screen the little suggestion bar along the bottom is highlighted rather then the menu. When you're watching a show and you pull up any of the little UI elements by pressing left, right or up on the D pad pressing the back button cycles through all those elements before offering the delete/exit option. The show information screen where you can view upcoming episodes, etc.. is a total mess. Probably the worst screen in the whole UI to use. You can't actually create a Wish List by going to the Wish List menu, instead you have to use Search which isn't intuitive at all. Why not have a Create Wish List option in the Wish List screen? Instead they just have some vague description of what a Wish List is with no explanation as to how to create one. And there are dozens of other little issues like this that make the UI harder to use then the old one.

There are things TiVo can do to fix it up and make it more usable, but who knows if they will. It took them almost a decade to finish the HDUI in the current UI. So how long is it going to take them to fix/finish this one?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

TKnight206 said:


> While I don't intend to upgrade to Hydra, I'm a bit curious. Would there be a way to replace the tiles with text?
> 
> After thinking about this for a moment, I'd probably have the text format in the same horizontal position as the tiles. Except it would show something like the following:
> 8:30pm-9pm | 9:00pm-9:30pm | 9:30pm-10:00pm | 10:00pm-10:30pm |
> ...


Why not do both? Shrink the picture part of the tile a bit and have some of text like you described at the bottom? I think SxxEyy and maybe (part of the) episode title would be a good start and would avoid the problem that the TV series have -- the same picture repeated over and over again with no obvious way to differentiate the recordings.

I think Hydra wasn't finished in time for Xmas and Rovi just released whatever they had at the time. I expect improvements in the late winter/early spring release. But live guide isn't even on their radar.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Thanks, that does look a lot cleaner than the big graphics with direction up in Live w/Hydra


AMEN!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Regardless of who they're targeting the current version of Hydra is less usable then the old UI. It's not just that it's changed. It's that they made it harder to do things. Some simple examples.... When you go to the main screen the little suggestion bar along the bottom is highlighted rather then the menu. When you're watching a show and you pull up any of the little UI elements by pressing left, right or up on the D pad pressing the back button cycles through all those elements before offering the delete/exit option. The show information screen where you can view upcoming episodes, etc.. is a total mess. Probably the worst screen in the whole UI to use. You can't actually create a Wish List by going to the Wish List menu, instead you have to use Search which isn't intuitive at all. Why not have a Create Wish List option in the Wish List screen? Instead they just have some vague description of what a Wish List is with no explanation as to how to create one. And there are dozens of other little issues like this that make the UI harder to use then the old one.
> 
> There are things TiVo can do to fix it up and make it more usable, but who knows if they will. It took them almost a decade to finish the HDUI in the current UI. So how long is it going to take them to fix/finish this one?


Only one comment. You really don't understand what a back button is. It is not "up" but is actually back. Like a computer browser or windows explorer. I'd rather it be consistent to go through everything in the list than guess what it is going to do.

As for the home screen. You actually arrow around that? Gee, TiVo went to all the trouble to expose the shortcuts and you aren't using them? BTW, arrow up and you to to the menu items.

I do agree they should have a shortcut to create a wishlist in the wishlists. Hardly a showstopper. They have shortened so many other things that I do every day, I can live with that. And yet they can tweak those things. Hardly a damnation of Hydra.

Face it, most tivo zealots hate Hydra because it doesn't look like the old cartoon interface. If they put garish outlines around everything and made it blue and yellow, the TiVo fanboys would be standing on chairs cheering.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Only one comment. You really don't understand what a back button is. It is not "up" but is actually back. Like a computer browser or windows explorer. I'd rather it be consistent to go through everything in the list than guess what it is going to do.
> 
> As for the home screen. You actually arrow around that? Gee, TiVo went to all the trouble to expose the shortcuts and you aren't using them? BTW, arrow up and you to to the menu items.
> 
> ...


That doesn't apply to me. I actually like how it looks. I don't like how it functions.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Only one comment. You really don't understand what a back button is. It is not "up" but is actually back. Like a computer browser or windows explorer. I'd rather it be consistent to go through everything in the list than guess what it is going to do.
> 
> As for the home screen. You actually arrow around that? Gee, TiVo went to all the trouble to expose the shortcuts and you aren't using them? BTW, arrow up and you to to the menu items.
> 
> ...


Not THIS Zealot!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

I actually completely agree with TonyD79. The old interface had me very hesitant to go with Tivo. I'm much happier with Hydra. Now if Comcast would just get their costs down.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Only one comment. You really don't understand what a back button is. It is not "up" but is actually back. Like a computer browser or windows explorer. I'd rather it be consistent to go through everything in the list than guess what it is going to do.
> 
> As for the home screen. You actually arrow around that? Gee, TiVo went to all the trouble to expose the shortcuts and you aren't using them? BTW, arrow up and you to to the menu items.
> 
> ...


I rarely use the shortcut buttons because I need to look at the remote to use them. And I can use the TiVo remotes without looking at them for the buttons on the top two thirds. But the buttons on the bottom third I need to look at to use. So it's easier for me not to use the numbers. Plus I need to move my hand to use the lower part of the remote. So it's easier and quicker for me to use page up/down and the d-pad to get to the shortcuts.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> This is the problem with the whole Hydra UI in my opinion. It's all form over function. It looks nice, but it's much harder to use. I understand the desire to create something that looks nicer and more modern, but if it's more difficult to use then what's the point? Just so you can have some fancy screen shots to show investors?
> 
> Ted.... I really hope one of the things you plan to address is the inconsistency in the UI. One of the things that bugs me most about Hydra is the inconsistent use of horizontal vs vertical scrolling. In my opinion horizontal show ALWAYS be used to change/filter a list and vertical should ALWAYS be used to select an option from that list. In some places you have actual options on horizontal lists and it just ruins the usability.


I completely agree. While others are making UI's that require fewer discrete buttons, Hydra requires more buttons. The back buttons now a must use when right arrow was sufficient.

UI are supposed to be intelligent but Hydra wants to treat a single show as a folder even though all existing TiVo users know the difference.

The TiVo mini Vox completely forgets which TV it was connected to and goes back to the default. It also does not remember the channel last watched and tunes channel 2.

Modern UI's are context sensitive. It would be OK if it were consistent but my Shows is a mess, wastes screen space, requires extreme dexterity to go up, over, down, select, .... to get to another TiVo.

I don't mind that it needs work but the answer to substantive critique cannot be "It's a modern UI". No, it is a new and somewhat functionally deficient UI. So, why not fix it?

- Rich


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> I am stunned that Comcast has only one buffer on X1. Show the last 10 channels tuned but no buffers. Even the crappy fios box buffers the most recent channel.


DirecTV Genie box does the same thing and I just hate it.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> The term "hip" is correct, as in, "I'm so old I need a new hip. And get off my lawn!"


But what is hip ??


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> That doesn't apply to me. I actually like how it looks. I don't like how it functions.


This has been part of my argument in the Plex sucks thread I created. But in this case Hydra is a work in progress and functional. Yes there annoying quirks being worked, but it works. As long as I can look at programming from just one channel to choose recordings from it, I could live without Live guide and Ted's teaser seems to be a direction towards that.

The back button is fine, its modern and millions of people have learned to use it on their Roku's and Fire TV's already. The main functionality I miss is playing TiVo files from another tivo or lan storage. The Live Guide nor the back button are deal breakers.


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## emuman100 (Jul 3, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> You can rollback to the gen3 interface but you will lose all recordings unless you can transfer them to another TiVo or to a PC.
> 
> Scott


Is there a way to do this on the Premiere?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

foghorn2 said:


> The main functionality I miss is playing TiVo files from another tivo


You can still play recordings from another TiVo. There is a devices list where you can pick other TiVos on your network and browse them just like before.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> You can still play recordings from another TiVo. There is a devices list where you can pick other TiVos on your network and browse them just like before.


As long as your "other TiVos" are S4s or later.


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## bobfrank (Mar 17, 2005)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.
> 
> As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the honest comments about the future of the live guide. I use it some, but not much. My wife, however, uses it constantly as a means of finding movies or other shows to record that she wouldn't otherwise know about. So I'm voting to bring the live guide to Hydra.

Much more important to me, even if this is the wrong thread to mention it, is the ability to transfer shows to and from my computer. I like to put my home and vacation videos on the Tivo to watch. I also really like copying my DVD movies to the Tivo instead of watching on the DVD player.

This will keep me from moving to Hydra and keep me from moving to the Bolt until it's addressed.


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## emuman100 (Jul 3, 2003)

sangs said:


> Seems to me TiVo Hydra is geared more toward today's consumers - and they like their visuals. You have to do what you can to stay in business and garner more users. If that means some of the old guard gets annoyed, so be it. Change happens. I certainly know my father never likes change, but he always adapts, after his *****ing period. I'd like to think the TiVo crowd - which I assume is not a 70-year-old man that's stubbornly stuck in his ways - can do the same.


It means you complain to Tivo and let them know. They are a terrible company now. Don't just accept it as "change".


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Johncv said:


> DirecTV Genie box does the same thing and I just hate it.


When I left DirecTV, Genie had four buffers. What happened?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> This has been part of my argument in the Plex sucks thread I created. But in this case Hydra is a work in progress and functional. Yes there annoying quirks being worked, but it works. As long as I can look at programming from just one channel to choose recordings from it, I could live without Live guide and Ted's teaser seems to be a direction towards that.
> 
> The back button is fine, its modern and millions of people have learned to use it on their Roku's and Fire TV's already. The main functionality I miss is playing TiVo files from another tivo or lan storage. The Live Guide nor the back button are deal breakers.


I can understand this. Like I have been saying, there are functions that have not been carried over and those I understand (like the name of this thread). But all this carping over a different button is just because people got used to it. If Hydra were the first Tivo interface and they moved onto the older one later, they would ***** just as much.

I go through this with software I have supported for years. It was always "better" in the old version because it was what the user knew.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

emuman100 said:


> It means you complain to Tivo and let them know. They are a terrible company now. Don't just accept it as "change".


Complain about what? I like Hydra and think it was a good change. As for the whole "terrible company now," I don't know, I've read many, many posts from TivoTed here trying to assist and inform people. Doesn't sound like something a "terrible company" does from my experience.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lpwcomp said:


> As long as your "other TiVos" are S4s or later.


Correct. Hydra only supports streaming, not transferring, so only units that support streaming show up.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

It basically broke a lot of the functionality your easy app gave us too. Hopefully there is something in the works to bring it all back again.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> When I left DirecTV, Genie had four buffers. What happened?


If the Genie has four buffers, I never found a way to switch between them.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Johncv said:


> If the Genie has four buffers, I never found a way to switch between them.


I know I made use of it. Just can't remember how and it may have changed.


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## TKnight206 (Oct 20, 2016)

BobCamp1 said:


> Why not do both? Shrink the picture part of the tile a bit and have some of text like you described at the bottom? I think SxxEyy and maybe (part of the) episode title would be a good start and would avoid the problem that the TV series have -- the same picture repeated over and over again with no obvious way to differentiate the recordings.
> 
> I think Hydra wasn't finished in time for Xmas and Rovi just released whatever they had at the time. I expect improvements in the late winter/early spring release. But live guide isn't even on their radar.


What would be the minimum amount of information that would be good?
Show / Movie
Sea? Ep?? / Year
Start Time - End Time
Length (not 100% sure on this one)
Rating (e.g. TV14 or R)

I'd probably go with three options: Tile, Text, Hybrid.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

emuman100 said:


> Is there a way to do this on the Premiere?


The Premiere doesn't get Hydra so it's still on the gen3 HD UI and this rollback isn't applicable?

Scott


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I’ve been playing with a workaround for some use cases of the live guide. A lot say they want to see what movies are coming up on certain channels like premiums. A combination of using favorites and the guide filter seems to work pretty well and gives you a swath of channels or just one, depending on what you want. 

This works best if you use Channel List for your default guide rather than favorites and does not work for all uses. 

First, set your favorites. You can make it one channel or multiples. I did it for all commercial free HD movie channels. Then use the A button and set to favorites and Movie category. 

It gives a timeline list similar to the old live guide. If you have multiple HBOs, for example, you can set it for them. 

Not really flexible but it is useable for specific use cases.


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## gamo62 (Oct 12, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for lighting up the bat signal. As of now, we have no plans to bring back the live guide in its current form. The gen4 design has not been implemented in its full form yet. Additionally, we are doing research with new and existing customers to understand where we can improve usability. Next week at the Consumer Electronics Show we will be demonstrating the first set of UI enhancements to the gen4 interface. One of these enhancements will include functionality which enhances the one-line guide which you access by pressing arrow-up on live TV. I'm attaching a couple of screen shots so that you can see what it will look like. This is scheduled for release towards the end of February.
> 
> As a bit of a historical reference, I helped design the Live Guide in 1999 during my first stint at TiVo. I am quite fond of it as well, and would bring it back if it were easy. Our current priority is to improve the current gen4 UI vs. bringing back Live Guide. That doesn't mean we will never bring it back, it just means we're not bringing it back soon.
> 
> ...


I do like the improvements being made. Although I really would like the opportunity to transfer recordings between units without using the web. Is that in the works? Thx.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Ps Vue guide is the style of live guide (Roku), 2 columns. Gee, I wonder why Vue is not realizing everyone likes the grid guide better, according to some posters and Tivo pretend research.


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## dsf (Jun 14, 2009)

powrcow said:


> I've never had that problem. Guess we search for different things.


An example would the "The Olymipics" - you know they never name it that, its always "The LXVII winter olympiad" or something.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

schatham said:


> Ps Vue guide is the style of live guide (Roku), 2 columns. Gee, I wonder why Vue is not realizing everyone likes the grid guide better, according to some posters and Tivo pretend research.


You do know they have to pay for the right to use the grid guide or go through a whole bunch of patent lawsuits.

Guess who's gonna sue them.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

schatham said:


> Ps Vue guide is the style of live guide (Roku), 2 columns. Gee, I wonder why Vue is not realizing everyone likes the grid guide better, according to some posters and Tivo pretend research.


Not sure about Sony, but Roku sign a license agreement with TiVo.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Johncv said:


> Not sure about Sony, but Roku sign a license agreement with TiVo.


Roku doesn't own the apps. Not sure where they would use a grid guide as Roku.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Roku doesn't own the apps. Not sure where they would use a grid guide as Roku.


Probably on the Roku TVs.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> Probably on the Roku TVs.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk


Roku tv's have a guide?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Roku tv's have a guide?


No idea. I don't have one. But I do know that many of the HDTVs I've owned had a guide.

With my Sony UHDTV, I've never connected the tuners up to anything so I'm not sure it has a guide. But I would expect that it does.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> Roku tv's have a guide?


Yes, my sister mentioned that the new TCL Roku TV she purchased just before Christmas (used for OTA) has a grid style guide, I believe it is using the data broadcast with the stations and assembling it, but I haven't had a chance to check it out first hand yet.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TonyD79 said:


> Roku tv's have a guide?


I have a Roku/Sharp TV that has an option to display a guide. I agree it must be PSIP based. Since I'm on cable nothing happens even when I first select OTA for the input. It is connected to the internet.

I also have an older Sony TV that supported TVGOS or PSIP for a guide. I mention it because it seems to still get time from its internet connection when TVGOS is selected. It never worked very well when TVGOS was alive.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Interesting. I had no idea that Roku had built a guide for its TVs. I figured they just used apps and various inputs. 

I've seen TVs have a sort of guide by showing you what is on and what is on in the next hour or so, but never a true guide on a native TV.

That would be what they are licensing the grid guide for, then.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I was just playing with manual recording in Hydra. It lists programs on the selected channel starting at the time period for the start time. No specific time information on the show nor anyway to select them from the list but it does show the next 13 shows on the selected channel.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I need to continue to be able to see what’s on now on 8 channels at once and hours ahead on any one channel at a time.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I just reported a data problem and technically, there is no way to for a Hydra user to report one since the first field is "The TiVo Live Guide shows (Show Name)"


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> I was just playing with manual recording in Hydra. It lists programs on the selected channel starting at the time period for the start time. No specific time information on the show nor anyway to select them from the list but it does show the next 13 shows on the selected channel.


Could you post a picture


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Regardless of who they're targeting the current version of Hydra is less usable then the old UI. It's not just that it's changed. It's that they made it harder to do things. Some simple examples.... When you go to the main screen the little suggestion bar along the bottom is highlighted rather then the menu. When you're watching a show and you pull up any of the little UI elements by pressing left, right or up on the D pad pressing the back button cycles through all those elements before offering the delete/exit option. The show information screen where you can view upcoming episodes, etc.. is a total mess. Probably the worst screen in the whole UI to use. You can't actually create a Wish List by going to the Wish List menu, instead you have to use Search which isn't intuitive at all. Why not have a Create Wish List option in the Wish List screen? Instead they just have some vague description of what a Wish List is with no explanation as to how to create one. And there are dozens of other little issues like this that make the UI harder to use then the old one.
> 
> There are things TiVo can do to fix it up and make it more usable, but who knows if they will. It took them almost a decade to finish the HDUI in the current UI. So how long is it going to take them to fix/finish this one?


Yup, from all the demos I've seen, it looks like another Cox, Comcast set-top mess. Big, shiny pictures and unbelievably difficult/unintuitive to use. Tivo's simplicity was its charm. It took them a decade to design this? Wow. Thank goodness they're not in politics...


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Only one comment. You really don't understand what a back button is. It is not "up" but is actually back. Like a computer browser or windows explorer. I'd rather it be consistent to go through everything in the list than guess what it is going to do.
> 
> As for the home screen. You actually arrow around that? Gee, TiVo went to all the trouble to expose the shortcuts and you aren't using them? BTW, arrow up and you to to the menu items.
> 
> ...


Sorry, this seems like a silly statement. If I wanted a garish, graphic-driven, overly cpu intensive, unintuitive interface I'd rent a Cox Contour box.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> As long as your "other TiVos" are S4s or later.


S4's being all models of Premiere's and up?


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Correct. Hydra only supports streaming, not transferring, so only units that support streaming show up.


What do you mean by 'transferring'? With a Hydra based machine, I can't transfer non-drm material between Tivo's or a PC?


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## boriente (Apr 2, 2010)

chrishicks said:


> While others will see this as a dumb reason the lack of the Live Guide is why I am not using Hydra at this very moment. I can deal with bugs and quirks(Hydra issues topic) but I just can't sacrifice a feature that kept me using Tivo for all these years over just jumping to whatever DVR Comcast has had through the years as my main go to box. The fancy new appearance in Hydra is nice and all but at the end of the day I use my Tivo to find and record things to watch and the Live Guide works better for me in doing just that. I will gladly stay with the current UI over any new fancy update to keep it that way.


Personally, I can't live with bugs, like the Last button not working correctly on Minis, or the way Minis display the wrong channel on the channel info bar yet showing the correct feed. Just to name a couple. I love the Live Guide and wish that it comes back but I can live with the grid and work around it. Hell, we all cut our teeth on the grid!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tvmaster2 said:


> What do you mean by 'transferring'? With a Hydra based machine, I can't transfer non-drm material between Tivo's or a PC?


With Hydra the option "Transfer this recording" is gone. You can still use the website to do TiVo to TiVo transfers but not directly in the UI. For PC transfers you can transfer from a TiVo to a PC using pyTivo, kmttg, etc.. but you can no longer transfer anything from PC to TiVo. PyTivo shares don't show up anywhere in the Hydra UI and the ability to push videos from PC to TiVo was disabled for all units a couple years ago. Your only option for watching video on your PC through TiVo is to use the Plex app.


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## Steve-0 (Feb 8, 2014)

I have nobody to blame but myself. I read the warnings about Live Guide being gone, and losing my recordings if I wanted to roll back. I'm just a sucker for new and improved, and I figured "hey, it's TiVo. They'll get it right". 

I've been Tivo'ing since DirecTiVo. Prior to that we had Microsoft TV, which was not bad but not TiVo. I briefly switched to U-Verse for the Total Home DVR (and HD), it was okay but not TiVo. I looked at the Comcast DVR when we dumped U-Verse but the menuing and guide were horrible. Back to TiVo (Roamio OTA), and happy again ... until now. 

I've been a devoted TiVo fan for 15 years or more, but pulling the Live Guide in order to mimic the horrible UI on competition that TiVo had trounced was just beyond stupid. 

I have 2 TV's, one with Roamio and a Roku, the other is Roku TV with TiVo mini attached. I used to go to the TiVo first, but since Hydra, I'm leaning more toward apps on the Roku. 

If they don't fix the guide soon, this will be the last TiVo I buy. They're no longer better than anything else on the market. 

Oh BTW, what's the deal with preserving recordings going up, but erasing everything if you come back down?


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## longrider (Oct 26, 2017)

Steve-0 said:


> I have nobody to blame but myself. I read the warnings about Live Guide being gone, and losing my recordings if I wanted to roll back. I'm just a sucker for new and improved, and I figured "hey, it's TiVo. They'll get it right".
> 
> I've been Tivo'ing since DirecTiVo. Prior to that we had Microsoft TV, which was not bad but not TiVo. I briefly switched to U-Verse for the Total Home DVR (and HD), it was okay but not TiVo. I looked at the Comcast DVR when we dumped U-Verse but the menuing and guide were horrible. Back to TiVo (Roamio OTA), and happy again ... until now.
> 
> ...


Regarding the live guide, in 21.8.1.RC6 the mini guide (up arrow I think) has become a decent replacement for the live guide. It does not show as many hours of the channel at one time but it is close.

On the recordings it is not the recordings themselves but they changed something in the database that is your playlist and while an upconversion was done there was nothing written to take it back (if even possible)


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

The new hydra mini guide is a live guide killer, it utterly demolishes it


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

longrider said:


> Regarding the live guide, in 21.8.1.RC6 the mini guide (up arrow I think) has become a decent replacement for the live guide. It does not show as many hours of the channel at one time but it is close.
> 
> On the recordings it is not the recordings themselves but they changed something in the database that is your playlist and while an upconversion was done there was nothing written to take it back (if even possible)





longrider said:


> Regarding the live guide, in 21.8.1.RC6 the mini guide (up arrow I think) has become a decent replacement for the live guide. It does not show as many hours of the channel at one time but it is close.


 It's better than you think the horizontal list of shows Scrolls for 14 days they really need to use the advanced key for scrolling to the next day and the channel key for scrolling to the next page. You can even go left and see previous programs


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

longrider said:


> Regarding the live guide, in 21.8.1.RC6 the mini guide (up arrow I think) has become a decent replacement for the live guide. It does not show as many hours of the channel at one time but it is close.
> 
> On the recordings it is not the recordings themselves but they changed something in the database that is your playlist and while an upconversion was done there was nothing written to take it back (if even possible)


 The new mini-guide is better than you think! It scrolls ahead for 14 days and it scrolls backwards too.
I put in a TiVo suggestion that they allow the channel up/down keys to page ahead and back and the Advance/Skip back keys to go ahead or back one day.
Currently you need to click a left or right arrow to move ahead to each day.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Live Guide fans are a very tough crowd. Until they get EXACTLY what they have now, they will not be satisfied. Last time I tried to tell them the Mini guide was a good substitute, I was essentially told to go F*** myself. So I hope you (Furmaniac) and foghorn2 are thick skinned and are prepared for the evisceration to come.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

I'm new to TiVo and the only reason. I haven't gone to the old UI is because the Vox Mic will display movies and TV shows from yesteryear and allow you to make one passes and bookmarks, where the typed -in search "currently" will not find those items.
That feature is valuable enough for me to keep Hydra, but I'm not happy either. I've read on these blogs that you used to be able to sort the guide by Channel name if you didn't know the number. Why did they take that away? 
One among so many other things that disappoints me about TiVo is they're not communicating with their customers. It's possible that they couldn't fit everything into the last year of Hydra releases and slowly they're going to be put in there, but they won't tell us what that is and what we permanently lost.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Furmaniac said:


> The new mini-guide is better than you think! It scrolls ahead for 14 days and it scrolls backwards too.
> I put in a TiVo suggestion that they allow the channel up/down keys to page ahead and back and the Advance/Skip back keys to go ahead or back one day.
> Currently you need to click a left or right arrow to move ahead to each day.


Well we may be a tough crowd to please, but you do make a valuable contribution with your suggestion. If and when the Powers that Be listen to any one of us, (naysayers and early adopters) is another story.
Keep it going, we are all allowed to choose what we like or do not like, you just have to like what we like is all.. ( just kidding).

Jack


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mdavej said:


> Live Guide fans are a very tough crowd. Until they get EXACTLY what they have now, they will not be satisfied. Last time I tried to tell them the Mini guide was a good substitute, I was essentially told to go F*** myself. So I hope you (Furmaniac) and foghorn2 are thick skinned and are prepared for the evisceration to come.


I was never a fan of the live guide as I prefer the grid but I could see some uses for it. What I like about the new style mini/live guide is that I can get a full grid by hitting guide and get the mini version with one key press. Before I had to change the guide style and change it back. Now, we have access to both types.

The thing I don't like about the mini guide is that the icons are not all the same size. Tv shows are square while movies are narrow. With movies, you see 8 programs. With tv shows, it is 4. Somewhere in between for a mix. The old live guide did 8.

The only thing missing from the mini guide over the old live guide is the list of current programs on other channels. But that was never the big selling point for the live guide as the grid does the same.

The mini guide is not perfect. Supporting text is missing for narrow icons and sometimes the pictures are not clear enough on their own. And you have to hover on a tile for repetitive programs like MLB baseball. And it drives me nuts that it is upside down. But those are nits.

Anyway, with the new style, I find myself using it more in a week than I did in a year with the old live guide.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

TonyD79 said:


> I was never a fan of the live guide as I prefer the grid but I could see some uses for it. What I like about the new style mini/live guide is that I can get a full grid by hitting guide and get the mini version with one key press. Before I had to change the guide style and change it back. Now, we have access to both types.
> 
> The thing I don't like about the mini guide is that the icons are not all the same size. Tv shows are square while movies are narrow. With movies, you see 8 programs. With tv shows, it is 4. Somewhere in between for a mix. The old live guide did 8.
> 
> ...


Fair point and well said.


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## lucidrenegade (Aug 21, 2013)

I don't mind the grid guide. I just can't believe they removed the sort by channel name option. Such a stupid move.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

lucidrenegade said:


> I don't mind the grid guide. I just can't believe they removed the sort by channel name option. Such a stupid move.


A useful feature for some. Depends on how organized your lineup is. Fios is pretty easy so I didn't use it much. If I had Comcast, I would love it.

What I miss more, though is the refinement of the guide down to sport type. You can do C to list categories but you used to be able to drill down into subcategories.


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## mdscott (Jun 26, 2002)

I find I rarely use any form of the Guide on the TV - almost always on the iOS iPad App.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

mdscott said:


> I find I rarely use any form of the Guide on the TV - almost always on the iOS iPad App.


Ditto for me (minus the Ipad part). When I started exploring options outside of the TiVo ecosystem, I started transitioning to alternative guide usage. I found that online listings along with some experimentation I was doing with TVDB favorites exports was a much more functional and useful (to me) workflow than any version of the TiVo guide (or other set-top guide). Between PC and phone I had greater customization and easier program search and sort available. The spotty performance of OnePass with online sources (that has been an issue for about 2 years now) initially pushed me to looking at alternatives, but having done so it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I'm not sure I would go back to a set-top guide no matter what. Perhaps with Voice-activation and recording built-in to a linked command -- but otherwise I can't think of any other compelling feature.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

TonyD79 said:


> Fios is pretty easy so I didn't use it much. If I had Comcast, I would love it.


Yep, I refine my channels all the time with this for Comcast. I was just about to move over to hydra, this is the reason I won't.


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## IronHammer (Jun 8, 2015)

I keep reading about this "Live Guide". What is it exactly? I haven't upgraded to Hydra yet.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

IronHammer said:


> I keep reading about this "Live Guide". What is it exactly? I haven't upgraded to Hydra yet.


Post with a picture -> Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!
If you have not starting using Hydra, then hit Guide, then "A", then select Live Guide. I thought it was the default.


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## IronHammer (Jun 8, 2015)

FASCINATING! That must have come out after I turned off the Tivo 8 months ago. Probably missed it by a few days. That was definitely not a feature I remember seeing. It appears to show the guide data for that show's parent channel in a sidebar. Is that right?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

IronHammer said:


> FASCINATING! That must have come out after I turned off the Tivo 8 months ago. Probably missed it by a few days. That was definitely not a feature I remember seeing. It appears to show the guide data for that show's parent channel in a sidebar. Is that right?


It's been on my TiVo units for five years. Yes, right.


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## JackieGaGa (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm new to TIVO using it a little over a week. What is Live Guide?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

JackieGaGa said:


> I'm new to TIVO using it a little over a week. What is Live Guide?


post with a picture -> Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!

You have to feed it or it dies.

??  Help: My S3 is Sick


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

The latest hydra has a live guide of sorts. Up arrow gives you 4 to 8 programs on a channel at a time in tile mode. The number depends on the tile width. Tv series are twice the size of movies. I don’t know why.


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## aforkosh (Apr 20, 2003)

Over in Season Pass Alerts, I show where having the Live Guide (and its incorporation in the Record (Manually) by Channel) is useful in the old interface. See GirlFriends Guide to Divorce--S5E1 Only available manually

I don't believe there is a good way to easily confirm and program around such a guide error in Hydra.

Note that because NBC Sports messes up their Tour de France coverage (essentially listing 2 variants of a show as the same show), I find the need to use these techniques on a regular basis


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

TonyD79 said:


> The latest hydra has a live guide of sorts. Up arrow gives you 4 to 8 programs on a channel at a time in tile mode. The number depends on the tile width. Tv series are twice the size of movies. I don't know why.


It's actually more than that. The new live g
guide with the up arrow scrolls all the way to two weeks of programming ... and backwards too. What I don't like is that the channel list is descending instead of ascending and that there is no skip ahead key that would skip ahead a page or a day. The right arrow key will move one program at a time.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Furmaniac said:


> It's actually more than that. The new live g
> guide with the up arrow scrolls all the way to two weeks of programming ... and backwards too. What I don't like is that the channel list is descending instead of ascending and that there is no skip ahead key that would skip ahead a page or a day. The right arrow key will move one program at a time.


That's disappointing you can't skip ahead by days with it, I was thinking at some point of upgrading again but it seems I would still be irritated without the live guide.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

Well. It is the live guide


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Furmaniac said:


> It's actually more than that. The new live g
> guide with the up arrow scrolls all the way to two weeks of programming ... and backwards too. What I don't like is that the channel list is descending instead of ascending and that there is no skip ahead key that would skip ahead a page or a day. The right arrow key will move one program at a time.


FF moves ahead by a page. I don't see a way to go day by day.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

TonyD79 said:


> FF moves ahead by a page. I don't see a way to go day by day.


That's funny. I know I tried fast forward and it doesn't do anything. I'll have to try it again


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Furmaniac said:


> That's funny. I know I tried fast forward and it doesn't do anything. I'll have to try it again


I was doing it when I wrote the post.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

TonyD79 said:


> I was doing it when I wrote the post.


Yes, I just tried it and you are right, but there is an issue with it .
When you go to the next page, it skips the first program on that page. Every time you press the fast-forward key and go to the next page, one program is skipped.
I will write a suggestion at TiVo.Com for them to fix that and to put the guide in ascending order.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

I sent this suggestion to the TiVo suggestion box:

On the live TV screen - up Arrow - live guide:

1) you can press an arrow key to go ahead or back one program at a time, or you can press FF or REW to move one page at a time. There is a bug here though. When you go to the next page, it skips the first program on that page. Every time you press the fast-forward key and go to the next page, one program is skipped.

2) Please put the live guide in ascending order. It is currently in descending order which is inconsistent with the regular guide and is difficult to follow when you're used to an ascending list.

3) as long as you have the right/left arrow moving one program and the FF/REW moving one page, why not have the advance/back skip keys move one day ahead or back.

4) there are about 4 tiles that show on a page but only the highlighted tile shows the time of the show. It would be nice if you would show the time of each show on the page without highlighting it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Furmaniac said:


> Yes, I just tried it and you are right, but there is an issue with it .
> When you go to the next page, it skips the first program on that page. Every time you press the fast-forward key and go to the next page, one program is skipped.
> I will write a suggestion at TiVo.Com for them to fix that and to put the guide in ascending order.


I thought that at first but realized it was not showing me an overlap. The first show on the left after a FF was the first one just off the screen. I wonder if that differs at times.


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## Furmaniac (Apr 3, 2018)

TonyD79 said:


> I thought that at first but realized it was not showing me an overlap. The first show on the left after a FF was the first one just off the screen. I wonder if that differs at times.


I don't see that on my TV screen.
I was at first wondering if that's what was happening, but no.
I tested it several times and on my box (Roamio Pro), a program is always skipped and not seen when you press the FF key. No overlap.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Furmaniac said:


> I don't see that on my TV screen.
> I was at first wondering if that's what was happening, but no.
> I tested it several times and on my box (Roamio Pro), a program is always skipped and not seen when you press the FF key. No overlap.


I've played some more. It seems to matter what channel and what tiles. Maybe tile size? I'm not sure. But it worked fine on EPIX. But not FS1. Maybe the narrow tiles work better (movies)? I can't figure out a pattern.

And I didn't say overlap. What i see often is that the first show just off the screen to the right becomes the first on the left after FF. But not always.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

is there a good link somewhere which visually (preferably moving pictures) compares the old TiVo guide system with the new, what’s different, what’s been added and what’s been taken away? Anything I’ve seen is just bad promo material.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> is there a good link somewhere which visually (preferably moving pictures) compares the old TiVo guide system with the new, what's different, what's been added and what's been taken away? Anything I've seen is just bad promo material.


Great question. If there is such a link, I'd also love to see it.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

You will have to do the comparison:

TE3 guides: Learn how to...

TE4 guide: https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/TiVoExperience_VG.pdf


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Specifically for the new “live guide” the first picture on page 18.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Specifically for the new "live guide" the first picture on page 18.


yeah, this is what I was afraid of - people who like to look at big, shiny picture boxes instead of reading words. Our Cox Countour Guide looks like this, and it's useless to me


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

It really amazes me that some people do not know what The Live Guide is. It is the opposite of the amazingly disgusting Grid Guide that was implemented when cable first came to NW Ft Laud in 1972/3, I think. You know, with the box that had 12 buttons and a 3 way switch giving us an amazing 36 channels...LOLOLOL. Of course that was the ridiculous Rolling Grid Guide!!!


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

So being able to see the next 12 hours of programming on a single channel is more useful than seeing the next 3 hours of programming on 10 channels? I believe you're in a very small minority of viewers. The rest of us know that after prime time, you'll get infomercials and crap for the next 12 hours. Don't need a guide for that.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

mdavej said:


> So being able to see the next 12 hours of programming on a single channel is more useful than seeing the next 3 hours of programming on 10 channels? I believe you're in a very small minority of viewers. The rest of us know that after prime time, you'll get infomercials and crap for the next 12 hours. Don't need a guide for that.


Sorry, couldn't disagree more, especially when one channel (HBO, Starz, ESPN) can make up so much of your recorded content. It's so fast to check things one day, five days, one week, two weeks out with Live Guide. And easy on the eyes. At the very least, TiVo's new owners, the ones who supply guide data, should have realized this was something 70% of owners are quite tied to. How much extra ram would they have to put in a Bolt to let you choose TV guide options?
Mindnumbingly dopey as far as customer satisfaction goes. Not to mention, many people bought and paid up to $700 for a box BECAUSE of things like Live Guide.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

mdavej said:


> So being able to see the next 12 hours of programming on a single channel is more useful than seeing the next 3 hours of programming on 10 channels?


Yes. (Actually scrolling with Channel Up/Down much more than 12 hours.)


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

I guess that's why I never used live guide. I have no reason to recording ANYTHING on premiums because ALL of it is available on demand. I never record any sports either. I find it much more convenient to start the grid at 8 PM and jump 12 hrs at a time, seeing several channels at a time.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

mdavej said:


> I guess that's why I never used live guide. I have no reason to recording ANYTHING on premiums because ALL of it is available on demand. I never record any sports either. I find it much more convenient to start the grid at 8 PM and jump 12 hrs at a time, seeing several channels at a time.


that's why you like it. As far as sports, I record nearly everything now, so I can watch the game in 75 minutes instead of four hours. Each to their own. Same with Prime Time, local channel programming. I watch late night for breakfast. Still don't understand why Tivo wants to make us choose. Of course, for now, we can keep the old system.....for now


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tvmaster2 said:


> How much extra ram would they have to put in a Bolt to let you choose TV guide options?


A guess: none?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tvmaster2 said:


> that's why you like it. As far as sports, I record nearly everything now, so I can watch the game in 75 minutes instead of four hours. Each to their own. Same with Prime Time, local channel programming. I watch late night for breakfast. Still don't understand why Tivo wants to make us choose. Of course, for now, we can keep the old system.....for now


If I did record premiums, browsing for movies to record, even using live guide, would take forever. There are 7 HBOs alone, probably just as many Starz, all of which have a lot of overlap and repeats. Browsing in the streaming app is much, much quicker and easier.

If I watched sports, I'd probably chase play like you as I do many other live events.

Hydra does have some version of live guide in the mini guide. It's a row of thumbnails that goes out a few hours further than the grid that you can page through with the ffwd/rew buttons.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mdavej said:


> If I did record premiums, browsing for movies to record, even using live guide, would take forever. There are 7 HBOs alone, probably just as many Starz, all of which have a lot of overlap and repeats. Browsing in the streaming app is much, much quicker and easier.
> 
> If I watched sports, I'd probably chase play like you as I do many other live events.
> 
> Hydra does have some version of live guide in the mini guide. It's a row of thumbnails that goes out a few hours further than the grid that you can page through with the ffwd/rew buttons.


Don't try. You can actually see more movies in a movie pack like HBO in the grid guide. No numbers will ever convince the big fans of the live guide. They always talk like there is only one channel they ever want to look at.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

mdavej said:


> So being able to see the next 12 hours of programming on a single channel is more useful than seeing the next 3 hours of programming on 10 channels? I believe you're in a very small minority of viewers. The rest of us know that after prime time, you'll get infomercials and crap for the next 12 hours. Don't need a guide for that.


If this was directed to me, first I suggest you reply correctly with the quote.

2nd, Look at the Poll. Over 75% don't seem to really understand why Tivo, Inc would do such a STUPID thing as get rid of the Live Guide.

As far as your comments about On Demand, who really wants to use that and not be able to skip thru commercials? I got a 6 tuner Roamio Pro and I record everything. The only time I have to reluctantly go to On Demand is when there is a screwup in the Fabulous Guide Data or some disaster, lets say maybe if "someone" will break into Primetime at 9 pm this Mon and it would need a manual time extension....grrrrr (I already adjusted for the Bachelorette...LOL).

Also regarding On Demand, Tivo, Inc never addressed the Comcast Interface problem where it does not recognize 5 min skips (would not work for commercial TV anyway!).

Oops, small rant...


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

samccfl99 said:


> 2nd, Look at the Poll.


I think the poll is irrelevant. Especially when TiVo knew the actual percentage it was in use and decided accordingly.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

samccfl99 said:


> If this was directed to me, first I suggest you reply correctly with the quote.
> 
> 2nd, Look at the Poll. Over 75% don't seem to really understand why Tivo, Inc would do such a STUPID thing as get rid of the Live Guide.
> 
> ...


Quoting this time.

I specifically singled out premiums, on which I've never seen nor had to skip a single commercial, ever. Of course I record other channels so I can skip.

I think we all know why Tivo got rid of live guide. It doesn't fit their tile centric interface, which is why their compromise is the tile based mini guide.

The previous poster's scenario of browsing premium channels has a better solution than live guide anyway - browsing/using On Demand. Since I've never found a use for live guide, I'm just curious what others are using it for. I get a lot more relevant data from the grid. I've never looked at the grid at 8PM and thought, "I wish I could see what's on at 5AM at this very instant and I refuse to press a button".


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Don't try. You can actually see more movies in a movie pack like HBO in the grid guide. No numbers will ever convince the big fans of the live guide. They always talk like there is only one channel they ever want to look at.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

I tried Hydra again and lasted a day and a half. Downgrading again right now. I don't know how you guys can use it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

schatham said:


> I tried Hydra again and lasted a day and a half. Downgrading again right now. I don't know how you guys can use it.


A day and a half is not long enough to get good at using anything. And I don't know how you guys would want to return.


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## ikester13 (Sep 29, 2007)

While I personally prefer the live guide when r u bringing back the live guide man it can't come back fast enough


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Another shout out for it just to keep this post alive.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I think the live guide that they have now is going to be it for a while.


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

Yes bring back the live guide and play all in folder


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

Sfpd said:


> Yes bring back the live guide and play all in folder


Play All will be returning shortly. I'd be less optimistic about the Live Guide returning in it's previous form.


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## sliderbob (Mar 18, 2008)

When was the latest update for Hydra? I upgraded back to my original UI 2 months ago.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

sliderbob said:


> When was the latest update for Hydra? I upgraded back to my original UI 2 months ago.


Release 21.8.2 is out for Bolt, maybe others

6/28/18


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## spameater2005 (Oct 31, 2005)

What I find interesting is that the screenshots for the new ios app shows it has the Live Guide in the app. Let's hope this is an unannounced surprise with the update to our boxes.

https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/iOS_Guide.png


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

spameater2005 said:


> What I find interesting is that the screenshots for the new ios app shows it has the Live Guide in the app. Let's hope this is an unannounced surprise with the update to our boxes.
> 
> https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/iOS_Guide.png


It would be really annoying if they put it into the app and not the box UI updates at some point.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Doesn't sound like it'll be in the next box update, at least.

But it's cool to know it'll be in the app. That will come in handy. :thumbsup:


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> It would be really annoying if they put it into the app and not the box UI updates at some point.


Maybe I've lost track of what the Live Guide is, but as far as I know, it has always been the type of guide in the iOS app.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

UCLABB said:


> Maybe I've lost track of what the Live Guide is, but as far as I know, it has always been the type of guide in the iOS app.


On the iPhone, the guide screen is so narrow you can only see the list of channels but on the iPad you are correct, it is a "live guide" style with channels on left and shows for that channel highlighted on the right.

Edit: had to check both as I don't use the iPad TiVo app very often.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> On the iPhone, the guide screen is so narrow you can only see the list of channels but on the iPad you are correct, it is a "live guide" style with channels on left and shows for that channel highlighted on the right.
> 
> Edit: had to check both as I don't use the iPad TiVo app very often.


You are correct- just the opposite for me as I normally use the iPad and the iPhone only sparingly- probably because it doesn't have live guide!


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

You can get the live guide on the iPhone if you select the channel number in the guide on the app


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## sliderbob (Mar 18, 2008)

ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


nope, none, nada in my opinion.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


Snappier, more consistent. Cleaner.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


A cure for low blood pressure.  This forum is 50/50 on it. I wouldn't say there's a big benefit other than voice search if you have the voice remote. It's mostly a matter of visual preference. It does most of the same stuff, it just looks different, is organized differently, and some features are missing (Live Guide, transfers, play a whole folder).

I'd wait until after the fall update releases and see what the feedback is like then. Some of the more disliked aspects are apparently getting a makeover.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


Biggest advantage is the VOX stuff works on Hydra but doesn't work on the old OS.

I personally like Hydra better than the old OS. Some say most tasks take more button presses, but I find the opposite to be the case.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mdavej said:


> Biggest advantage is the VOX stuff works on Hydra but doesn't work on the old OS.
> 
> I personally like Hydra better than the old OS. Some say most tasks take more button presses, but I find the opposite to be the case.


Given the posts I've seen that say "I had to do this, this and this to do this" when the reality is that the action is right on the screen, a lot of the "more buttons" is a lack of comprehending what is shown. I see it at work all the time. Someone gets an error message that says "do exactly this" and the user says "what do I do?" rather than reading the message.


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


Not really, unless you like clunky pictographs and a loss of features.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Plenty. A much better interface in my opinion. I can't stand using the HDUi any more when I use the TiVos at my GFs house.

Plus Hydra allows use of the voice remote. And searching by voice is so much faster than typing in with the remote.


sliderbob said:


> ANY advantages of using Hydra over the old OS?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RoamioJeff said:


> Not really, unless you like clunky pictographs and a loss of features.


Clunky? I can see not preferring pictures. I prefer text myself but clunky?


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## sdmf74 (Sep 30, 2018)

Voted for TIVO LIVE GUIDE. I hope enough customers are complaining to tivo so we can get this "optional" feature back ASAP!


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

In case it hasn’t already been mentioned, the Live Guide is alive and well on the iOS app (click Guide, then click the channel name or number). I don’t use Android but assume it works the same way.

When I’m sitting in front of a TV, I’ve gotten used to using the Hydra Mini Guide in place of the Live Guide. Up Arrow, then select the channel, then >> to page through 4-6 shows at a time on that channel. I liked the Live Guide better, but I can live with the Mini Guide. Just me, tho, YMMV.


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

yes bring back (live guide) if it ain't broke don't fix it


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

sdmf74 said:


> Voted for TIVO LIVE GUIDE. I hope enough customers are complaining to tivo so we can get this "optional" feature back ASAP!


yes bring back (live guide)


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Steve said:


> In case it hasn't already been mentioned, the Live Guide is alive and well on the iOS app (click Guide, then click the channel name or number). I don't use Android but assume it works the same way.
> 
> When I'm sitting in front of a TV, I've gotten used to using the Hydra Mini Guide in place of the Live Guide. Up Arrow, then select the channel, then >> to page through 4-6 shows at a time on that channel. I liked the Live Guide better, but I can live with the Mini Guide. Just me, tho, YMMV.


It's fine that it's on iOS apps but I'm not gonna sit and look through my phone for shows when I'm in the living room with the TV. Live Guide or bust.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Sfpd said:


> yes bring back (live guide)


It's been over a year and Tivo has repeatedly said it's not coming back and they have the numbers to back up their logic, and trust me I'm not moving anything other than my one Roamio over to Hydra without LiveGuide, but even I know it's not coming back.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Bring Back DOS 3.31!!


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

I haven't used the Live Guide in a while, so besides text vs. posters, I may have forgotten what other differences there are between the Live Guide and the new Hydra One-Line Guide. With Hydra, when I do an Up Arrow, I'm still able to select a channel and quickly page ahead through all the shows on that channel using FF. Does the Live Guide offer something else in addition to that?

That said, even while in front of the TV, my iPhone is always with me, so it's actually faster for me to scan through upcoming shows in the TiVo app and set up a recording, with no need to interrupt whatever we may be watching at the moment.


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## michaelfb68 (Jan 5, 2019)

Hydra is awful. Truly a horrible experience. Live Guide was THE reason to own TiVo. It was what set it apart from the Comcast DVR. 

Hydra is a classic example of poor skeuomorphic design. It works for kindergarteners and old people, but for everybody else it's generally a mess. This one is slow, hard to navigate, and annoying. 

I went so far as to buy a new TiVo just to try it out. I wasn't going to risk upgrading and then losing everything to go backwards. I tried it for two days and that was it. It went back.

The established users have spoken loudly and TiVo could care less. I will no longer recommend their products.


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

michaelfb68 said:


> Hydra is a classic example of poor skeuomorphic design. It works for kindergarteners and old people, but for everybody else it's generally a mess. This one is slow, hard to navigate, and annoying.


^^^^^
THIS.

I refer to this as the Fisher Price effect to UI redesigns. They slap the "Modern" moniker on it to try to convince people to adopt it where they otherwise would not. Big blobby graphics or tiles that move slow and take up a lot of screen real estate. Form over function. Extra steps to click or navigate through to perform formerly simpler tasks. A fiddly interface, where the developers left out access to formerly available functionality due to time budget pressures from Marketing.


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## michaelfb68 (Jan 5, 2019)

RoamioJeff said:


> ^^^^^
> THIS.
> I refer to this as the Fisher Price effect to UI redesigns.


I used the term skeuomorphic, which is somewhat accurate, but I like Fisher Price better. It is spot on.

IMO they simply mimicked Netflix and Prime, even Plex. The navigation and simplicity of the existing interface is ideal. Who could have possibly complained? And to trash the Live Guide?

Some of the Tivo sycophants are trying to say a lot of people like it, but that is simply a lie. Very few people like it. The poll tells all, and I bet 70% of the "likes" are from people who never knew the old system.

What amazes me is how awful the Tivo programmers are. How on earth can the downloaded programs not be protected from system changes? You can upgrade but not downgrade? Why are they just not files to be accessed and why aren't subscriptions simple text or formatted data? Seriously, who designed this? Is it 1981? The API should be the API and the skin used to make the calls should be interchangable the way an Android launcher is. It should be lightweight and the user should be able to choose and swap them in seconds. Tivo is truly pathetic.


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## michaelfb68 (Jan 5, 2019)

TonyD79 said:


> Clunky? I can see not preferring pictures. I prefer text myself but clunky?


Clunky is a compliment.

It is among the worst things I have ever seen developed. In my life, I have never seen a program downgrade itself to the degree that Tivo did with Hydra. That is not hyperbole... Never.

They made the very false assumption that the users just want to use Voice for everything, so they took away basic features that made the system great. You can't go back with the left arrow. The guide is awful. Not as much fits onscreen. It is slow. It is illogical. And I am being kind.


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Clunky? I can see not preferring pictures. I prefer text myself but clunky?


I guess the dissatisfaction is because most folks prefer text over show posters. The Hydra "mini guide" offers the same ability to quickly page through all the shows on a single channel the Live Guide did, from what I can remember.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

michaelfb68 said:


> I will no longer recommend their products.


Not even to kindergarteners and old people like me?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

michaelfb68 said:


> Clunky is a compliment.
> 
> It is among the worst things I have ever seen developed. In my life, I have never seen a program downgrade itself to the degree that Tivo did with Hydra. That is not hyperbole... Never.
> 
> They made the very false assumption that the users just want to use Voice for everything, so they took away basic features that made the system great. You can't go back with the left arrow. The guide is awful. Not as much fits onscreen. It is slow. It is illogical. And I am being kind.


100% disagree. I like it so much better than the cartoonish and inconsistent older interface. Which I hated as second worst only to the old Comcast interface.


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## Gerry Todd (Jan 3, 2019)

I’m open to change, but not having the live guide will continue to prevent me from upgrading. When I cut the cord six years ago, I couldn’t believe how inferior any other cable or satellite guide I had once used was in comparison to TiVo’s. The fact that they won’t listen to so many of us longtime loyal customers is infuriating. 

That mini guide is no solution, in my opinion. With Live Guide, you can see something like 5 hours into the future at a glance while browsing. Hitting “guide” brings you to that inefficient (just like everyone else’s) grid guide, with not even have the superior alternative as an option? And the reason is because they only care about new users who are used to it from their lousy cable box? Don’t even assume they’re intelligent enough to quickly learn the new experience (to them) of the live guide, which I think the large majority would fall in love with (like so many of us did) and never miss the pointless grid? 

It should be the default, because it’s one of the biggest reasons TiVo has always been miles ahead. A truly unique and brilliant trademark. As others have said, if nothing else, let us change the default grid back to our beloved live guide. 

Come on, TiVo! Look at all of your loyal users begging for this feature to return! 

I proudly voted in the poll above.


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

Gerry Todd said:


> That mini guide is no solution, in my opinion. With Live Guide, you can see something like 5 hours into the future at a glance while browsing. Hitting "guide" brings you to that inefficient (just like everyone else's) grid guide, with not even have the superior alternative as an option?


Have you tried hitting the up arrow while watching live TV or a recording? That brings up the mini guide. Depending on poster size, you can see 4-8 shows into the future. No "text only" option, which I'd like to see, but you do see the show description of the highlighted poster.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steve said:


> Have you tried hitting the up arrow while watching live TV or a recording? That brings up the mini guide. Depending on poster size, you can see 4-8 shows into the future. No "text only" option, which I'd like to see, but you do see the show description of the highlighted poster.
> 
> View attachment 38558


The old live guide was not time dependent but show dependent. Forty shows, you see the same amount. But facts aren't important.


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## Gerry Todd (Jan 3, 2019)

TonyD79 said:


> The old live guide was not time dependent but show dependent. Forty shows, you see the same amount. But facts aren't important.


That makes it even better. Glancing at 10 or so upcoming shows instead of time increments? Don't know why I always thought I was looking at time increments in the live guide. Duh.

How is there a way to see 40 upcoming shows in a similar manner through Hydra? No need to be snarky. If there's a convenient way to quickly see that far ahead through a guide on Hydra, I'd love to learn more. Regardless, having the "guide" button pull up that typically cumbersome grid that everyone uses is extremely disappointing.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Steve said:


> The Hydra "mini guide" offers the same ability to quickly page through all the shows on a single channel the Live Guide did, from what I can remember.


Remove the word quickly. Their not even close to the same. Better than nothing


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

schatham said:


> Better than nothing


That's my point. I too was a live guide fan and user, but between the mini guide and the iOS app, I don't miss it any more.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Gerry Todd said:


> That makes it even better. Glancing at 10 or so upcoming shows instead of time increments? Don't know why I always thought I was looking at time increments in the live guide. Duh.
> 
> How is there a way to see 40 upcoming shows in a similar manner through Hydra? No need to be snarky. If there's a convenient way to quickly see that far ahead through a guide on Hydra, I'd love to learn more. Regardless, having the "guide" button pull up that typically cumbersome grid that everyone uses is extremely disappointing.


What 40? You have to page to see 40. You scroll to see them in the mini guide.

In fact, hydra is better at this because you can access BOTH styles with one button. Before that, you had to toggle the guide style.

The picture was posted earlier. You just scroll to the right for more.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

michaelfb68 said:


> I went so far as to buy a new TiVo just to try it out. I wasn't going to risk upgrading and then losing everything to go backwards. I tried it for two days and that was it. It went back.


What are you a 6 year old child? Never ceases to amaze me the length some guys will go to play with new toys. Imagine if everyone just bought stuff to play with for a couple days and then returned it?!! SMH


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> What 40? You have to page to see 40. You scroll to see them in the mini guide.


In case you missed, you can "page" right and left as well in the mini guide, using the << and >> keys.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

CloudAtlas said:


> What are you a 6 year old child? Never ceases to amaze me the length some guys will go to play with new toys. Imagine if everyone just bought stuff to play with for a couple days and then returned it?!! SMH


As someone who used to work in retail, I have to sadly say that people doing this is way more common than you might think. it's sometimes called "rental".


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

It's sad that if you really LOVE the Wonderfully Developed Live Guide and you Like to Push things up to the Tivo from a PC, it is Not Good. If you "upgrade", then you have to put up with the STUPID Back Button (what genius thought of that?) and whatever ridiculous other crap and bugs. Look how long it got for TE3 to be fairly good. Not enough updates in my opinion, being it is such a "new" "experience"...LOL

But then you gain NO AUDIO delay coming in and out of TC and supposedly it is a bit snappier (not totally convinced about that on a Roamio) and Voice Command.

Now I forgot a lot of how the boxes connect together. So I know a Mini that is tied to a TE4 host must have TE4 on it. What about my XL4? That does not run TE4, right? So I would still be able to Push to it? And then be able to transfer to the Roamio if I want? But then the Mini could not play anything from the XL4, right? But the TE4 Roamio could play from the XL4? It's all so DUMB....

Wish I had a spare Tivo host to test with, but I don't...Oh well, my prediction was always Xmas 2019 for it to MAYBE get better...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> and whatever ridiculous other crap and bugs.


FUD!

Please show the unlimited threads talking about TE4 bugs. I will wait.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

CloudAtlas said:


> What are you a 6 year old child? Never ceases to amaze me the length some guys will go to play with new toys. *Imagine if everyone just bought stuff to play with for a couple days and then returned it?!!* SMH


And imagine if MVPD's deceptively advertised their services for a given price and then tacked on a slew of additional, unposted fees to reflect the actual, higher cost of the product the consumer was purchasing. Or imagine if commercial airlines and large-scale etailers used algorithms to sell the same item for varying, and sometimes vastly inflated prices depending on minute-to-minute calculations of consumer demand. Or imagine if large corporations treated their workforce as virtual chattel while lavishing exorbitant remuneration and perks on their senior executives and board members. SMH

On a less facetious note, as long as the consumer is adhering to the return policy established by the retailer and not engaging in fraud (e.g., failing to disclose damages incurred or swapping a used product for an identical new one), he/she is only taking advantage of the liberties granted by the sales agreement.



tenthplanet said:


> As someone who used to work in retail, I have to sadly say that people doing this is way more common than you might think. it's sometimes called "rental".


I myself find that practice morally repugnant. However, in an unfettered capitalist society you have to play the system if you don't want to be unfairly victimized. By the same token, I wish my ISP would just offer me their service at a fair price and be done with it. But instead I am reduced to periodic negotiating and wheedling just to avoid paying double or more for what I want.

In my opinion, none of this should be necessary--or even allowed. But sadly that's not the world we have created for ourselves.


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

JACKASTOR said:


> Just Curious about how many of us Want the Live guide Option back.
> Yes I think its a reasonable option that could be added easily enough.
> 
> So lets find out How many of Us Want Live Guide Back!
> ...


bring back (live guide and play all in folder)


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## Megamind (Feb 18, 2013)

Sfpd said:


> bring back (live guide and play all in folder)


Play All in Folder *IS *Back.


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

Megamind said:


> Play All in Folder *IS *Back.


it is !!!!!


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## Gerry Todd (Jan 3, 2019)

Megamind said:


> Play All in Folder *IS *Back.


Well, that's good news! I'm now a little more optimistic about a possible return of the live guide, since they actually followed through on a feature requested by users.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

I changed my vote to..Prefer Grid Guide to all else. Hail Hydra !


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

tenthplanet said:


> I changed my vote to..Prefer Grid Guide to all else. Hail Hydra !


I never even knew what the Live Guide was until Hydra! Unfortunately threads like these, which apparently are meant to "influence" TiVO Inc., really just keep TE3 people in a state of continued annoyance (as if some actually needed help).

The Dodgers have a better chance of moving back to Brooklyn than the Live Guide coming back.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

CloudAtlas said:


> I never even knew what the Live Guide was until Hydra! Unfortunately threads like these, which apparently are meant to "influence" TiVO Inc., really just keep TE3 people in a state of continued annoyance (as if some actually needed help).
> 
> The Dodgers have a better chance of moving back to Brooklyn than the Live Guide coming back.


Sad but true!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

CloudAtlas said:


> I never even knew what the Live Guide was until Hydra! Unfortunately threads like these, which apparently are meant to "influence" TiVO Inc., really just keep TE3 people in a state of continued annoyance (as if some actually needed help).
> 
> The Dodgers have a better chance of moving back to Brooklyn than the Live Guide coming back.


At least they show up in Queens a few times each year.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

CloudAtlas said:


> I never even knew what the Live Guide was until Hydra! Unfortunately threads like these, which apparently are meant to "influence" TiVO Inc., really just keep TE3 people in a state of continued annoyance (as if some actually needed help).


It has stopped me from upgrading to a Bolt, i.e. Tivo did not make a sale.

My apartment building switched to Comcast. So, I'm using the Comcast X1 DVR. The grid guide is pretty fast. I don't want to deal with pairing and paying for a cable card to get my Roamio back up and current.


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I don't want to deal with pairing and paying for a cable card to get my Roamio back up and current.


Not to hijack this thread, but what does Comcast charge monthly for a cablecard, vs. what the X1 equipment fee costs you per month? And isn't there a monthly "DVR service fee" with Comcast?


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Steve said:


> Not to hijack this thread, but what does Comcast charge monthly for a cablecard, vs. what the X1 equipment fee costs you per month? And isn't there a monthly "DVR service fee" with Comcast?


when I had Comcast, it was $1.50 for each card after the first, and $9.99 a month for "extra outlet" fee per month.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Steve said:


> Not to hijack this thread, but what does Comcast charge monthly for a cablecard, vs. what the X1 equipment fee costs you per month? And isn't there a monthly "DVR service fee" with Comcast?


It all depends on where you're located. Different regions of Comcast charge different prices. I've never been charged for cable cards even when I had more than one and get a credit of $2.50 each month for the past ten years on my bill.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Steve said:


> Not to hijack this thread, but what does Comcast charge monthly for a cablecard, vs. what the X1 equipment fee costs you per month?


Cable card is supposed to be just $10/month. I pay nothing for cable and internet. It is included in my rent. Common in high rise buildings.

Cable and internet (not Comcast) were $58/month in *another building* plus equipment charges (I owned my equipment so I just paid $58). This was bulk pricing in another building. The new owners of the building got rid of bulk pricing so residents are paying $179/month which probably includes ~$35/month for so-so equipment.



Steve said:


> And isn't there a monthly "DVR service fee" with Comcast?


I did not get a cable card from Comcast because I assumed there would be additional charges. I might get an antenna for my Roamio and use it for OTA broadcasts. Dragging my feet...

So far my account shows $0 owed for three months running. Comcast will charge for WiFi usage through their router above a certain amount. I have my own wired and wireless router plugged into a Comcast cable model/router wired port.


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## Phil T (Oct 29, 2003)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> It all depends on where you're located. Different regions of Comcast charge different prices. I've never been charged for cable cards even when I had more than one and get a credit of $2.50 each month for the past ten years on my bill.


This is the same for me. If you then add TiVo mini's there is no additional outlet fee to Comcast.


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## CloudAtlas (Oct 29, 2013)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Cable card is supposed to be just $10/month. I pay nothing for cable and internet. It is included in my rent. Common in high rise buildings. ...
> I did not get a cable card from Comcast because I assumed there would be additional charges. ...
> So far my account shows $0 owed for three months running.


Just seems odd that you're in a TiVO forum using a Comcast X1 DVR with an unused TiVO Roamio because you *assumed* there would be additional charges for the cable card. TiVO isn't even worth a phone call to Comcast to see how much extra it would be?


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> Bring Back DOS 3.31!!


DR Dos 7.0 was better


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Give me XP or give me death ! /Damn I'm out bullets


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

CloudAtlas said:


> Just seems odd that you're in a TiVO forum using a Comcast X1 DVR with an unused TiVO Roamio because you *assumed* there would be additional charges for the cable card. TiVO isn't even worth a phone call to Comcast to see how much extra it would be?





chicagobrownblue said:


> I don't want to deal with pairing and paying for a cable card to get my Roamio back up and current.


The $10 was from a Comcast rep:


chicagobrownblue said:


> Cable card is supposed to be just $10/month.





chicagobrownblue said:


> I did not get a cablecard from Comcast because *I assumed there would be additional charges*. I might get an antenna for my Roamio and use it for OTA broadcasts.


Would you believe Comcast, RCN and others don't tell you about the additional charges? They just show up on your bill. Many posts on here about that. There could be a 4-tuner HD charge of $12.50 plus $10 plus any applicable taxes. Not worth it.

I have 8 recorderable tuners and rarely have 3 in use at one time. I'm frequently watching content real-time there is so little on.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Would you believe Comcast, RCN and others don't tell you about the additional charges? They just show up on your bill. Many posts on here about that. There could be a 4-tuner HD charge of $12.50 plus $10 plus any applicable taxes. Not worth it.
> 
> I have 8 recorderable tuners and rarely have 3 in use at one time. I'm frequently watching content real-time there is so little on.


If you keep the Comcast DVR (or if you have any other Comcast digital receiver such as an HD STB) on your account, then the TiVo to which the CableCARD is paired would count as an additional digital outlet (ADO) entailing a $9.95 p.m. ADO or "digital service" fee. There should be no charge for the CableCARD itself; moreover, that $9.95 ADO fee would be partially offset by a $2.50 p.m. customer-owned equipment (COE) credit resulting in a net monthly cost of $7.45 (there is no tax on these charges, as opposed to equipment rental fees).

If you have no Comcast digital video devices on your account, there should be no charge whatsoever for the CableCARD and no ADO fee since you would have only the one digital outlet showing on your equipment list. The "HD Technology Fee" does not apply to third-party (COE) devices; however, you would still be entitled to the COE credit, resulting in *a net reduction* of $2.50 in your total charges.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> If you keep the Comcast DVR (or if you have any other Comcast digital receiver such as an HD STB) on your account, then the TiVo to which the CableCARD is paired would count as an additional digital outlet (ADO) entailing a $9.95 p.m. ADO or "digital service" fee. There should be no charge for the CableCARD itself; moreover, that $9.95 ADO fee would be partially offset by a $2.50 p.m. customer-owned equipment (COE) credit resulting in a net monthly cost of $7.45 (there is no tax on these charges, as opposed to equipment rental fees).
> 
> If you have no Comcast digital video devices on your account, there should be no charge whatsoever for the CableCARD and no ADO fee since you would have only the one digital outlet showing on your equipment list. The "HD Technology Fee" does not apply to third-party (COE) devices; however, you would still be entitled to the COE credit, resulting in *a net reduction* of $2.50 in your total charges.


Just to confirm that this matches our Comcast costs here in Virginia as well. We have no Comcast equipment and the CableCARD in our Roamio Pro is free as part of the primary outlet included in our Double-Play package with no HD Technology Fee and we get the $2.50 COE credit (and same details on ADO costs if we were to add another TiVo with CableCARD or if the TiVo were in addition to Comcast equipment as the primary outlet).

Scott


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

chiguy50 said:


> If you keep the Comcast DVR (or if you have any other Comcast digital receiver such as an HD STB) on your account


The account for internet, cable, cable modem, router and DVR are on the apartment building management's account, they pay for all of this.



chiguy50 said:


> the COE credit, resulting in *a net reduction* of $2.50 in your total charges.


My total charges are $0. My account refers to any WiFi over the base minimum, additional services like HBO, PPV or VOD I order. All $0 for three months running. High rise cable/internet accounting is more complex than a single family home account. Adding a TiVo will result in indeterminant additional charges down the line.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

HerronScott said:


> Just to confirm that this matches our Comcast costs here in Virginia as well. We have no Comcast equipment and the CableCARD in our Roamio Pro is free as part of the primary outlet included in our Double-Play package with no HD Technology Fee and we get the $2.50 COE credit (and same details on ADO costs if we were to add another TiVo with CableCARD or if the TiVo were in addition to Comcast equipment as the primary outlet).
> 
> Scott


Same here in MA, I use the mini's for extra TV's. The mini was the game changer when it comes to cost. Now Tivo is much cheaper if you have several TV's. Before it was about the same, probably more due to the Tivo cost.

Also, make sure you buy your own cable modem and router. Save another $13 a month.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

chicagobrownblue said:


> The account for internet, cable, cable modem, router and DVR are on the apartment building management's account, they pay for all of this.
> 
> My total charges are $0. My account refers to any WiFi over the base minimum, additional services like HBO, PPV or VOD I order. All $0 for three months running. High rise cable/internet accounting is more complex than a single family home account. Adding a TiVo will result in indeterminant additional charges down the line.


I am very familiar with bulk-services accounting. I receive Comcast CTV service through my HOA's bulk-services agreement, for which I myself did the due diligence and which I helped to negotiate.

Now, your arrangements may well contain provisions and exclusions unique to your property, but in general (and as is the case for myself) the fees and credits I mentioned above should apply to your individual account. One caveat (whether on a BSA or under the terms of a comprehensive bundle agreement) is that if a Comcast-supplied DVR or HD STB is stipulated in your equipment package, you may have difficulty getting it removed so that the TiVo becomes the sole digital device on your equipment list. But even in these cases, with a little persistence it can be possible to get Comcast to accommodate your TiVo-centric preferences.

Finally, as a native Chicagoan, I hope that you are able to get the TV setup you want. Just avoid using it to watch any hometown professional sports unless you are a masochist.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> FUD!
> 
> Please show the unlimited threads talking about TE4 bugs. I will wait.


IDK why you bothered to make this reply. Too much to answer the questions in the post?

It's been 9 days since I posted that and there is absolutely no talk about anything, anywhere about what the Tivo is meant to do. No Ted, nothing. Seems like no one cares and loves to bow down to Tivo, Inc after all the money we all have paid them.

I tell you one thing, after all these years they cannot get the Resume Point to work correctly in *ALL* situations in TE3. One of the Most annoying bugs Ever and it does not seem that it should be very hard to fix. Probably not fixed in TE4...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> IDK why you bothered to make this reply. Too much to answer the questions in the post?
> 
> It's been 9 days since I posted that and there is absolutely no talk about anything, anywhere about what the Tivo is meant to do. No Ted, nothing. Seems like no one cares and loves to bow down to Tivo, Inc after all the money we all have paid them.
> 
> I tell you one thing, after all these years they cannot get the Resume Point to work correctly in *ALL* situations in TE3. One of the Most annoying bugs Ever and it does not seem that it should be very hard to fix. Probably not fixed in TE4...


Because it is FUD. I think it is obvious. Including your assumption that your pet bug is probably not fixed. If you have no actual information on what if it is or is not, making that statement is just spreading FUD.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> Because it is FUD. I think it is obvious. Including your assumption that your pet bug is probably not fixed. If you have no actual information on what if it is or is not, making that statement is just spreading FUD.


Pet Bug? PITA Bug is more like it. Stupid A$$ bug is much more like it after 6 years that I know of...and WTF is FUD??? But you can't tell me that it is fixed, because I can almost 100% guarentee that it is not. Not by the "great" Tivo, Inc.

Please don't reply to me anymore. You really do not help at all. You criticize people. I criticize Tivo, Inc...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

samccfl99 said:


> ...and WTF is FUD???


The diversity on this planet is so awesome.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt - Wikipedia


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> I tell you one thing, after all these years they cannot get the Resume Point to work correctly in *ALL* situations in TE3. One of the Most annoying bugs Ever and it does not seem that it should be very hard to fix. Probably not fixed in TE4...





samccfl99 said:


> Pet Bug? PITA Bug is more like it. Stupid A$$ bug is much more like it after 6 years that I know of...and WTF is FUD??? But you can't tell me that it is fixed, because I can almost 100% guarentee that it is not. Not by the "great" Tivo, Inc.


As a long time TiVo user (18 1/2 years) I've seen a few people report issues with remembering pause/resume points in some situations but I do not recall a huge number of posts on this. It's not something that I've ever noticed in our use on our Roamio Pro in the 3+ years that we've had it (TE3 still) but honestly we record shows and watch shows so generally we don't pause a show or movie and come back to watch it and can't say we've ever seen this the times that we have.

Scott


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> The diversity on this planet is so awesome.
> 
> Fear, uncertainty and doubt - Wikipedia


Thanks Joe! I clicked on the link. You are great with links! I don't think of such things...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

samccfl99 said:


> Thanks Joe! I clicked on the link. You are great with links! I don't think of such things...


Google is your friend.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

HerronScott said:


> As a long time TiVo user (18 1/2 years) I've seen a few people report issues with remembering pause/resume points in some situations but I do not recall a huge number of posts on this. It's not something that I've ever noticed in our use on our Roamio Pro in the 3+ years that we've had it (TE3 still) but honestly we record shows and watch shows so generally we don't pause a show or movie and come back to watch it and can't say we've ever seen this the times that we have.
> 
> Scott


So let me explain it. I will try to be short, but that's hard for me!

It happens on my Roamio Pro and Mini (much worse on the Mini). Yes, I get in and out of things all the time. It took me a long time to figure it out (years ago though). Mostly it happens when playing something currently recording. Usually between 5-7 minutes or so before the end of the buffer, there usually is no way to save the resume point, but before that, if you get out by hitting the Live button, it will "usually" save it, but if you get out any other way (like going into TC) there is not much hope. The strange thing also I have found is that the longer the recording, the More minutes are added to buffer problem (this I found out not too long ago, maybe months). Now on the Mini, it is more hopeless. Even getting out with the Live button, it's a crapshoot. It also sometimes happens when playing something currently recording. Sometimes on the Mini, it happens on a regular recording, but that may be because of being close to the end of the buffer. It really is a PITA, but as an old type programmer, I just do not understand why any way you get out, it should save the Resume point. I usually keep track of where I get out, just in case it happens. As I said, I doubt if it is fixed in TE4, but I only have one host and I ain't going to upgrade. I wish I would have gotten that All-In Roamio OTA for $200 a couple of Xmas' ago to play, but I did not.

There are Many mods that I wanted for years in TE4, but without Push or Live Guide, it's a no starter for me, as it is with many. Plus that BACK button...

I got no trust...

And of course I went LONG, sorry! But thanks for the reply!

OK, I am not done. I will tell you about my other pet peeve. Have you noticed that when you have several recordings in a group and the group pointer loses it's place and you are back to the first recording in the group? I actually reported that to L2 (when you could talk to them). Then, the group position pointer was Global and every time you went to another group, you lost the position in the last group you were in. They Actually Amazingly Did fix that a few updates after I reported it, BUT of course they did not fix it all the way, because they never saved the group pointer in the database (or whatever they use), so when you would reboot, all groups were back at the top (I emailed Margret and she thought the way it was done was not a problem...). This also can happen anytime even if you don't reboot (not all that often, but it does) and I never could figure out why it did it. You know, Netflix NEVER loses it group position pointer...EVER.

Your thoughts? Now I am done...

PS, I do LOVE my Tivo, nothing better out there, but what do I know. I am just a 63 year old IT guy who hates BUGS!!! LOL. And yes, this probably does not belong in this thread!!!

Have a nice day, your posts are very knowledgeable and helpful!


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

Question, from doing some digging there is a mini-guide option when you push up on the remote. It displays upcoming shows horizontally (instead of vertically like the old live guide) but does not show the names of the movies/shows.

Is this anywhere near as nice as the Live Guide I have on my TE3 Bolt? That is the main reason I'm not updating to Hydra.


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## Sfpd (Oct 2, 2018)

JACKASTOR said:


> Just Curious about how many of us Want the Live guide Option back.
> Yes I think its a reasonable option that could be added easily enough.
> 
> So lets find out How many of Us Want Live Guide Back!
> ...


yes bring back live guide (if it ain't broke don't fix it)


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> Question, from doing some digging there is a mini-guide option when you push up on the remote. It displays upcoming shows horizontally (instead of vertically like the old live guide) but does not show the names of the movies/shows.
> 
> Is this anywhere near as nice as the Live Guide I have on my TE3 Bolt? That is the main reason I'm not updating to Hydra.


Well, that's really a matter of opinion, but generally speaking the people who like/understand Live Guide say no.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stile99 said:


> Well, that's really a matter of opinion, but generally speaking the people who like/understand Live Guide say no.


Despite that it does the exact same thing as live guide but uses tiles. Exact same functionality.


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## omelet1978 (Mar 7, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Despite that it does the exact same thing as live guide but uses tiles. Exact same functionality.


So are you a fan of the mini guide then?


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Despite that it does the exact same thing as live guide but uses tiles. Exact same functionality.


You can keep saying it. Won't make it true.

As has been explained many (many, many, many, many) times, with the live guide on the left you can see what is currently on eight channels, while on the right you can see what is coming up over the next several hours on a specific channel (the one highlighted). With the mini guide you cannot. Period.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

stile99 said:


> You can keep saying it. Won't make it true.
> 
> As has been explained many (many, many, many, many) times, with the live guide on the left you can see what is currently on eight channels, while on the right you can see what is coming up over the next several hours on a specific channel (the one highlighted). With the mini guide you cannot. Period.


Blah blah blah. I keep being told that what is important for the live guide is that you can look at what is on a single channel for a long period of time. You live guide people have to make up your minds.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

omelet1978 said:


> So are you a fan of the mini guide then?


I use it occasionally. What I am a fan of is that I can use it, the grid guide, favorites or tuner buffers without having to go through multiple clicks to change a guide style.


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## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Blah blah blah. I keep being told that what is important for the live guide is that you can look at what is on a single channel for a long period of time. You live guide people have to make up your minds.


Blah blah blah. You keep getting told because you keep spreading the falsehood that it's the same. And then when called on it the anti live guide people (usually you) respond "tell me how it's different then". And then respond with a useless non-sequitur, as you did. The circle is complete, until next time someone (usually you) starts it again.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

stile99 said:


> You can keep saying it. Won't make it true.
> 
> As has been explained many (many, many, many, many) times, with the live guide on the left you can see what is currently on eight channels, while on the right you can see what is coming up over the next several hours on a specific channel (the one highlighted). With the mini guide you cannot. Period.


Not even close is right! People who say this don't use it, they are grid guide fans.

In the new live mini guide go ahead several days and try to return back to another channel at the beginning and see how long it takes you. You have to scroll back one at a time or exit. Just one example.

It's like using the mini grid guide in T3 and saying it's the same as the full grid guide.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Blah blah blah. I keep being told that what is important for the live guide is that you can look at what is on a single channel for a long period of time. You live guide people have to make up your minds.


I will say as a Live Guide supporter your description is exactly why I won't move my primary machines to Hydra and the grid guide, I'll describe exactly why I love Live Guide.
I'm at a lull and going to look for what's on now, scrolling down the channel list on the left, I come to any one of the movie channels, TCM, FXM, Hallmark, etc and can see on the right at least 8+ upcoming items and then scroll down for the next 2 weeks picking movies I want to record, there is nothing like this functionality on the grid guild that shows me that much data that efficiently and I do this usually a few times a week depending on the channel, it's especially nice if I see something on now that I want but have missed 1/2 of it, I can also scroll down for the next showing.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

TonyD79 said:


> Despite that it does the exact same thing as live guide but uses tiles. Exact same functionality.


Hmmm I guess it does to an extent. But it's not that quick or easy to grok like the live guide.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

JACKASTOR said:


> Hmmm I guess it does to an extent. But it's not that quick or easy to grok like the live guide.


Tiles suck. Are people so friggin' lazy these days they need pictures to navigate a TV guide vs. reading it? Tiles also take up too much screen real estate and when done poorly (as Tivo has done with Hydra) the interface feels sluggish.

I'm fine with tiles when I'm scrolling through a movie to rent or buy (sort of like a modern day visit to Blockbuster). But the over usage of tiles in Hydra make it unbearable. Do I really need tiles to see what is on each tuner? Does not a channel logo with actual words describing the show and channel number not suffice? Do I really need to see a picture of Lester Holt to know that the Nightly News is recording on tuner 5?

Rant over.


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

exdishguy said:


> Tiles suck. Are people so friggin' lazy these days they need pictures to navigate a TV guide vs. reading it? Tiles also take up too much screen real estate and when done poorly (as Tivo has done with Hydra) the interface feels sluggish.
> 
> I'm fine with tiles when I'm scrolling through a movie to rent or buy (sort of like a modern day visit to Blockbuster). But the over usage of tiles in Hydra make it unbearable. Do I really need tiles to see what is on each tuner? Does not a channel logo with actual words describing the show and channel number not suffice? Do I really need to see a picture of Lester Holt to know that the Nightly News is recording on tuner 5?
> 
> Rant over.


Tiles are the Fisher Price style of the recent user interface fad. They are big blobby pictographs that nobody asked for developed by hipster programmers who call it "modern". Bleh. We've seen this visual virus deployed in Windows, on phones, and now TiVo. Jeezus, it's a figgin' DVR. All you need is a functional grid to lay out the content in an efficient and practical manner. We don't need pictographs.

The "style" is condescending towards people in assuming that users are too lazy to read an actual text label or want a slim and uncluttered user interface.

It's almost as if programmers are bored and rather than work on new useful features they want to muck around with a tried-and-true user interface for the childish satisfaction of "look what I made!"

Nobody asked for this. This is one reason I will not upgrade to Hydra.


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## michaelfb68 (Jan 5, 2019)

Said it before, and I will say it again --- Live Guide is the sole reason I kept Tivo. When I used the Comcast guide on the X1 box I had, I wanted to hang myself. Then Tivo went and copied it.

When people would ask me why I used Tivo instead of the cable-issued DVRs, I'd show them the Live Guide. "Ooohhhhhh", they'd say. Comcast and Verizon installers said "Wow, that is great!" The differences were immediately apparent, not to mention the ease of recording shows, accessing shows, system speed, and more. The user experience was night and day.

I just setup my 5th Mini. Once again, I had to run through 3 setup routines to get Live Guide, as it automatically upgrades the Mini without asking, then offers a downgrade. It's hard to believe the programmers at Tivo are so dumb that they can't incorporate a basic decision structure that checks the host OS then installs the compatible OS on the Mini by default in one shot. 

#baffling


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

michaelfb68 said:


> Said it before, and I will say it again --- Live Guide is the sole reason I kept Tivo. When I used the Comcast guide on the X1 box I had, I wanted to hang myself. Then Tivo went and copied it.
> 
> When people would ask me why I used Tivo instead of the cable-issued DVRs, I'd show them the Live Guide. "Ooohhhhhh", they'd say. Comcast and Verizon installers said "Wow, that is great!" The differences were immediately apparent, not to mention the ease of recording shows, accessing shows, system speed, and more. The user experience was night and day.
> 
> ...


While I too love Live Guide, I totally get that Tivo wants us to move to TE4. They have limited resources and have to put all that they have into TE4 as that is the only code base they will support moving forward. They probably cannot and will not support the TE3 code base beyond what we have today (as far as new features and very occasional bug fixes).

That said, my issue is the TE4 UX design. It's hard to believe that the UX first-gen TE4 design team did much (if anything) to incorporate customer/user feedback when they initially designed the Hydra interface.

The good news is that the company seems to have some new blood that are making a concerted effort to listen to their customers (e.g. the Facebook Innovation group). So hopefully we'll start to see some of the beloved features of TE3 pulled into the TE4 code stream soon enough. Fingers crossed.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

exdishguy said:


> They probably cannot and will not support the TE3 code base beyond what we have today.
> Fingers crossed.


I'm betting TE3 is frozen and there will be no changes. But if it helps, I'll cross my fingers also.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm betting TE3 is frozen and there will be no changes. But if it helps, I'll cross my fingers also.


Oh, I completely agree. I thought I said as much - TE3 is available to us but only on a "as-is" basis. They won't be updating it anymore at all IMO.

My fingers are crossed that TE4 will soon feature Live Guide and other features currently only found in TE3.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

exdishguy said:


> Oh, I completely agree. I thought I said as much - TE3 is available to us but only on a "as-is" basis. They won't be updating it anymore at all IMO.
> 
> My fingers are crossed that TE4 will soon feature Live Guide and other features currently only found in TE3.


Don't hold your breath. When they first released TE3 only a handful of screens were in HD, the rest dumped you back to the old UI. It took them like 8 years to finish it releasing 1-2 new screens with each update like once or twice a year.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

exdishguy said:


> Tiles suck. Are people so friggin' lazy these days they need pictures to navigate a TV guide vs. reading it? Tiles also take up too much screen real estate and when done poorly (as Tivo has done with Hydra) the interface feels sluggish.
> 
> I'm fine with tiles when I'm scrolling through a movie to rent or buy (sort of like a modern day visit to Blockbuster). But the over usage of tiles in Hydra make it unbearable. Do I really need tiles to see what is on each tuner? Does not a channel logo with actual words describing the show and channel number not suffice? Do I really need to see a picture of Lester Holt to know that the Nightly News is recording on tuner 5?
> 
> Rant over.


No no you must rant on. These are legit comments. And we should be able to choose the look period if we so want. Plus the live guide was TiVo's very own hallmark feature which won a lot of us over for that very reason.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Don't hold your breath. When they first released TE3 only a handful of screens were in HD, the rest dumped you back to the old UI. It took them like 8 years to finish it releasing 1-2 new screens with each update like once or twice a year.


He remembers.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Is is there a post here (or anywhere) that lists the differences between the new os and old? Like the new one missing the live guide? like a pros and cons


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Live Guide is working in Hydra as we speak.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> Live Guide is working in Hydra as we speak.


NOTE the date: April 1st


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## RoamioJeff (May 9, 2014)

foghorn2 said:


> Live Guide is working in Hydra as we speak.


Yes, and they've fixed transfers to PC and gotten rid of the goofy tiles in the UI!

Upgrading to Hydra now!


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

All Hail Hydra


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

You got it


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Wait until Tivo's migration to Android TV down the line. Get those torches ready to be lit.


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

tenthplanet said:


> Wait until Tivo's migration to Android TV down the line. Get those torches ready to be lit.


And don't forget the pitchforks!


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Don’t forget it’s coming to Apple TV as well!


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

exdishguy said:


> That said, my issue is the TE4 UX design. It's hard to believe that the UX first-gen TE4 design team did much (if anything) to incorporate customer/user feedback when they initially designed the Hydra interface. .


Remember when Tivo was looking for users who never used a Tivo to do testing. Maybe that's how they got their input. They knew Tivo users would hate it.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

schatham said:


> Remember when Tivo was looking for users who never used a Tivo to do testing. Maybe that's how they got their input. They knew Tivo users would hate it.


More likely they used the test monkeys instead to do the testing.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

JACKASTOR said:


> More likely they used the test monkeys instead to do the testing.


You think? "Test monkeys" who need to be paid rather then "free" users?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> You think? "Test monkeys" who need to be paid rather then "free" users?


Yes, the glasses and the tie aren't free


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Mikeguy said:


> You think? "Test monkeys" who need to be paid rather then "free" users?


its either that or the Flying monkeys they used for the making of the Oz movie way back in the day!


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## 172pilot (Jan 8, 2004)

schatham said:


> Remember when Tivo was looking for users who never used a Tivo to do testing. Maybe that's how they got their input. They knew Tivo users would hate it.


From a business decision aspect, that is probably what they did.. afterall, they already have my $$ on my hardware and lifetime sub.. They need to attract NEW customers, not keep the old ones happy. The problem is, that thought process is short-sighted. If I was a new customer now, I'd say "I'll just go with the Comcast box... it looks the same, and Tivo doesn't offer any reason to go with them and deal with the support hassles of dealing with multiple companies in case of a support issue". I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

172pilot said:


> From a business decision aspect, that is probably what they did.. afterall, they already have my $$ on my hardware and lifetime sub.. They need to attract NEW customers, not keep the old ones happy. The problem is, that thought process is short-sighted. If I was a new customer now, I'd say "I'll just go with the Comcast box... it looks the same, and Tivo doesn't offer any reason to go with them and deal with the support hassles of dealing with multiple companies in case of a support issue". I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like


Meh. I don't believe for a minute that the reason Live Guide isn't in Hydra is because of potential support calls. If that were true they could easily just make an SPS code to allow the legions of long-time Tivo fans to enable/disable it. However, all of this misses the point - Rovi has made a complete mess of Tivo and they lost sight of the key differentiators that could make Tivo the absolute best way to consume media (streaming, rentals, cable channels, Plex, etc.). So let's look at each:

- Streaming and Rentals. Is Hydra the best streaming user-interface on the market? Not even close. They are late to this party and it appears someone thought throwing tiled-images everywhere would make them look relevant. Hydra is a me-too interface that isn't helped by Tivo's hapless attempt at creating an app-ecosystem. They are way behind Apple, Roku and many others.

- Cable. They have a grid. Whoopee. So does every other cable box on the planet. They have also added oodles of unnecessary clicks and use cover-art in the dumbest of places. Somewhere within Rovi someone thought they could just throw some cover-art on cable channel shows and they'd look more relevant. Meanwhile the actual user experience was made far more complicated than necessary AND it doesn't even look that good since some of the tiles are just blue/blank placeholders or don't even match the actual show being shown.

So we're left with a box that is still better than cable boxes in some ways but nothing that is going to drive the kind of growth they need to survive. Enter IP infringement lawsuits and royalties. That has bought them some time but the last time I checked, patents expire. They need to innovate and leap-frog ahead of the competitors again to create true shareholder value. I think they'll sell parts of the business off and until that happens, don't hold your breath. There won't be much more innovation beyond auto-skip (if you think that is innovating....Google "ReplayTV") as I'm sure management is puckering up on opex spend to put lipstick on the pig in hopes of a buyer.


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## 172pilot (Jan 8, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Blah blah blah. I keep being told that what is important for the live guide is that you can look at what is on a single channel for a long period of time. You live guide people have to make up your minds.


Why? Why can't the benefit of the live guide be that you have the option of both?


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## 172pilot (Jan 8, 2004)

exdishguy said:


> Meh. I don't believe for a minute that the reason Live Guide isn't in Hydra is because of potential support calls.


No.. that's not what I meant.. I meant as a consumer, this new interface isn't sufficiently different/better than what I can get from Comcast, and so for me - all things being equal, I'd take the one from Comcast because then if I have a problem, I wouldn't have Comcast blaming Tivo, and Tivo blaming Comcast.. Having a single support point is valuable and in my opinion, the new interface gives less reason to put up with that..

That being said - As a long time Tivo guy, I still like Tivo better than Comcast's offering, but at first glance, they look more similar now, and some of the ease of use I used to like is gone now. I'm getting used to it, but I didn't consider it an "upgrade"


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

172pilot said:


> That being said - As a long time Tivo guy, I still like Tivo better than Comcast's offering, but at first glance, they look more similar now, and some of the ease of use I used to like is gone now. I'm getting used to it, but I didn't consider it an "upgrade"


Agreed 100%


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

Personally I think TiVo doesn't really worry or care much about retail. I think they are just getting the UI setup for the cable cos to use on whatever hardware or apps they want to use for their systems. They probably aren't going to waste resources on things the cable cos aren't asking for.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

mschnebly said:


> Personally I think TiVo doesn't really worry or care much about retail. I think they are just getting the UI setup for the cable cos to use on whatever hardware or apps they want to use for their systems. They probably aren't going to waste resources on things the cable cos aren't asking for.


I wonder how much cable co business Tivo really has? I see 9 on their website and at least 1 of those are owned by another listed (I believe Cogeco owns Atlantic). Several have competing DVR offerings along with Tivo. A few of them are serving really small markets like, Alaska. And at least 3 are showing TE3 on their website pages featuring Tivo:

TiVo PVR | TV provider | Cogeco
MediacomCable - Television
What is TiVo? The TiVo Experience versus DVR | Grande Communications

I'm eager to listen in on their earnings call in May and will have to take a peek at their Annual report to see if they discuss number of subscribers (as I really don't know, but are now curious). I hope they are making Brewster's millions on millions of subscribers. The skeptic in me also wonders if we place too much credence on the notion that Tivo is catering to the masses now instead of those in their niche fan club?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

This is supposed to be available Wednesday: Service Electric Cablevision | TiVo

Supposed to be ready now: Service Electric Cable TV and Communications - Equipment


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> This is supposed to be available Wednesday: Service Electric Cablevision | TiVo
> 
> Supposed to be ready now: Service Electric Cable TV and Communications - Equipment


Looks like Tivo is announcing an extension of their RCN deal, who said they'll be using Tivo for their IPTV services. The pre-earnings call hype machine is in full swing. Let's hope the good news helps make for a much better call than the last.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

exdishguy said:


> I wonder how much cable co business Tivo really has? I see 9 on their website and at least 1 of those are owned by another listed (I believe Cogeco owns Atlantic). Several have competing DVR offerings along with Tivo. A few of them are serving really small markets like, Alaska. And at least 3 are showing TE3 on their website pages featuring Tivo:
> 
> TiVo PVR | TV provider | Cogeco
> MediacomCable - Television
> ...


Unfortunately I don't think they report the split any more like they did before Rovi bought them (They mention "Approximately 22 million subscriber households around the world use TiVo's advanced television experiences." in the current earning reports but I suspect that also includes Rovi Passport Guide).

In April 2016, they had over 6 million cable/MSO subscriptions and 974 thousand retail subscriptions though.










http://ir.tivo.com/file/Index?KeyFile=34557285

Scott


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> They wish.


Oops, fixed... 

(and I think we retail users wish as well).

Scott


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

HerronScott said:


> Unfortunately I don't think they report the split any more like they did before Rovi bought them (They mention "Approximately 22 million subscriber households around the world use TiVo's advanced television experiences." in the current earning reports but I suspect that also includes Rovi Passport Guide).
> 
> In April 2016, they had over 6 million cable/MSO subscriptions and 974 million retail subscriptions though.
> 
> ...


Thanks Scott. Yea, I decided to read some of their latest report last night. Although I thought I read that Tivo had 7m MSO subscribers? Hopefully we'll be able to see if they are adding to that subscriber base in the next report. I must say that the elements describing the strategy were actually quite impressive (to me at least). I may not like the execution to date on the Tivo UX but the strategy seems sound to me. A bit busy, but sound.

It was also insightful reading about the restructuring cost and amount spent on severances, etc. I have pretty much been just using and enjoying my Tivo boxes and haven't paid attention to all this stuff (until I bought a Bolt and immersed myself in maximizing by dubious investment in a Bolt with LT service). They clearly did what big companies do when they buy smaller companies - they found many of the employees "redundant" and laid a bunch of Tivo employees off. Sadly there is often key talent that is overlooked or just plain pushed out due to politics and I fear that happened with Tivo.

Hoping for the best next month!


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

It's been mentioned before, but in case you missed, if you have an iOS or Android device, the Live Guide is alive and well. Just go to the Guide and click the station name.

My iPhone is always by my side, so not a hardship at all to use this instead of directly on the box. I do most of my searching and scheduling on the iPhone as well.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

But that’s not the same as ease of use from the TiVo where we always are when we are home. Plus the battery drain on some of these phones these days belies the truth in advertised battery life, so it still is. A pain in the butt. Also the phone must remain on screen or you have to log back in a lot of the time. On that note a small tablet or old smart phone could function as a devoted smart TiVo remote with out being hooked to cellular and that might negate bad battery drain. .


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Steve said:


> It's been mentioned before, but in case you missed, if you have an iOS or Android device, the Live Guide is alive and well. Just go to the Guide and click the station name.
> 
> My iPhone is always by my side, so not a hardship at all to use this instead of directly on the box. I do most of my searching and scheduling on the iPhone as well.
> 
> View attachment 40653


Different strokes for different people, but a much smaller interface, and why have to reach for another device rather than keeping it all on the TV screen?


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

Steve said:


> It's been mentioned before, but in case you missed, if you have an iOS or Android device, the Live Guide is alive and well. Just go to the Guide and click the station name.
> View attachment 40653


Precisely why it is extremely frustrating to many of us that they can't be bothered to put it into TE4.  So much for cross-platform consistency.

I don't think I can be bothered lifting my iPhone up every time I want to look at Live Guide. But I do appreciate the suggested work around!


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Live Guide users, please tell us why the 6-8 programs listed in the TE4 mini live guide is totally unacceptable. Besides it being thumbnails with text on them instead of purely text, what problem does the text list solve that text plus picture does not?


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## Darrell Patton (Jul 19, 2018)

What is the "live guide" you're talking about? I assume you meant the traditional TV guide, which already is there, just push the guide button on the remote. You must be talking about something else, please inform me what that is.
Not being a smart a**. I honestly don't understand what it is you are referring to.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Darrell Patton said:


> What is the "live guide" you're talking about? I assume you meant the traditional TV guide, which already is there, just push the guide button on the remote. You must be talking about something else, please inform me what that is.
> Not being a smart a**. I honestly don't understand what it is you are referring to.


Check post 54 in this thread for screenshots. With TE3 you had a choice which you wanted to use. We're Live Guide users here as that was the default (and maybe only selection?) on our original S1 in 1999.

Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!

Scott


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## Darrell Patton (Jul 19, 2018)

OK I see what you're talking about. Personally I prefer the guide in Hydra. I can easily see what's coming up in the next couple of hours on multiple channels all on one screen.


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Different strokes for different people, but a much smaller interface, and why have to reach for another device rather than keeping it all on the TV screen?


I just reach for the phone, instead of reaching for the remote!

Seriously, I find it much quicker to search and schedule on my iPhone or iPad. Just me, tho. Understand why most folks prefer the GUI.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mdavej said:


> Live Guide users, please tell us why the 6-8 programs listed in the TE4 mini live guide is totally unacceptable. Besides it being thumbnails with text on them instead of purely text, what problem does the text list solve that text plus picture does not?


We have explained it, multiple times
but here you go...
Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!


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## timstack8969 (May 14, 2004)

I have T4 not bad grid guide ok but would be happier with Live Guilde back.


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## Phil_C (Oct 28, 2011)

mdavej said:


> Live Guide users, please tell us why the 6-8 programs listed in the TE4 mini live guide is totally unacceptable. Besides it being thumbnails with text on them instead of purely text, what problem does the text list solve that text plus picture does not?


It is a sort of workaround. But I find it VERY difficult to read many of the titles quickly.

I used the Live Guide primarily to search through movie channels. There I could quickly scroll down and take in everything on each screen in a second or two, until something interesting caught my eye.

The "new live guide" presents problems for me. While I can see up to seven movie titles per screen, each "poster" varies in font, font size, colors, and the location of the title in the poster. All of this makes it impossible for me to quickly take in the information I want. Some titles are nearly unreadable even if I stop to figure out what I'm looking at.

Where my brain could quickly take in a whole screen at a time in the Live Guide, the TE4 version forces me to stop and focus on and decipher each tile. It takes much, much longer to scroll through 11 or 12 days of programming. This becomes tiring to the point where my mind begins to wander and I just don't want to deal with it. So, while I at first thought I could use the new version as a substitute, I find that I have mostly stopped using it.

Your experience may be different. I generally like TE4, but of the things that I consider negative changes from TE3, the lack of the Live Guide is the worst.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

dianebrat said:


> We have explained it, multiple times
> but here you go...
> Hydra... Bring back Live Guide!!!!


Since you can do pretty much exactly the same thing on Hydra mini live guide (NOT the grid guide), that still doesn't answer my question.

Up arrow to bring up mini live guide. Then...
"scrolling down the channel list on the left, I come to any one of the movie channels, TCM, FXM, Hallmark, etc and can see on the right at least 8+ upcoming items" - check

"and then scroll down for the next 2 weeks picking movies I want to record" - check, except you scroll right

"there is nothing like this functionality on the grid guild that shows me that much data that efficiently and I do this usually a few times a week depending on the channel" - I agree 100%. But I'm not talking about the grid. I'm talking about the mini live guide.

"it's especially nice if I see something on now that I want but have missed 1/2 of it, I can also scroll down for the next showing." - check. Mini live guide does this too, just scroll right.

Given all of that, how is mini live guide so functionally different from the TE3 live guide that it's judged unusable?

I appreciate Phil_C's reasoning. The tiles are simply slower to comprehend, which is a perfectly valid reason.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

mdavej said:


> Since you can do pretty much exactly the same thing on Hydra mini live guide (NOT the grid guide), that still doesn't answer my question.
> 
> Up arrow to bring up mini live guide. Then...
> "scrolling down the channel list on the left, I come to any one of the movie channels, TCM, FXM, Hallmark, etc and can see on the right at least 8+ upcoming items" - check
> ...


They are not only slower, they aren't even right - if available at all - in my market. I see lots of blue/green tiles with no graphics (or the network is too slow to download them fast enough? ...although I have Gigabit FiOS) or I've even seen out-of-market logos for local news in Seattle...and I live in NY!

But the short answer to your main question is that we want a full Live Guide, not a mini one with tiles. Not a phone that I have to pickup after setting my remote down to navigate the phone. I want Live Guide updated with the pretty new fonts and graphics already available in their iOS, Android apps and Hydra.

I do appreciate you pointing out a possible workaround should I ever upgrade again (which won't be until they add Live Guide).


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## Phil_C (Oct 28, 2011)

And while we're at it, in the Grid Guide you scroll DOWN to advance to higher number channels. But some brainiac decided that in the mini guide you should scroll UP for higher numbers. I started going the wrong way almost every time I used it.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

Did Rovi just dump TiVo's iconic thumbs up/down interaction ratings system rather than just improving it??


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Joe3 said:


> Did Rovi just dump TiVo's iconic thumbs up/down interaction ratings system rather than just improving it??


See Has the thumbs up/thumbs down option been gone for a while, or is it recent?


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## kclfoxtrot (May 6, 2014)

Does Hydra allow you to hit the info button and see what is playing on all of your tuners. I love that option and can not find anything suggesting it is offered with Hydra. Live guide is nice but being able to see all the tuners is great.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

kclfoxtrot said:


> Does Hydra allow you to hit the info button and see what is playing on all of your tuners. I love that option and can not find anything suggesting it is offered with Hydra. Live guide is nice but being able to see all the tuners is great.


Info button won't do it in Hydra. You need to hit right-cursor button and you'll see something like 2 1/2 tiles. The channel desc is inexplicably below the white outline of the artwork and you'll need to scroll up/down to see all tuners. You can hit info once on one of the tiles and it will explode to a very nice info panel with full details.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

exdishguy said:


> Info button won't do it in Hydra. You need to hit right-cursor button and you'll see something like 2 1/2 tiles. The channel desc is inexplicably below the white outline of the artwork and you'll need to scroll up/down to see all tuners. You can hit info once on one of the tiles and it will explode to a very nice info panel with full details.


I prefer the right arrow to show the buffers. I would like the tiles to be smaller, though. The base functionality of right for buffers, left for favorites, up for live guide, down for suggestions and guide for grid guide is nicely done except for the size of the tiles. It is why I scoff when people say it takes more buttons to do things in hydra. To see the old buffers, you have to hit info then arrow to them. One key and I see them.


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## exdishguy (May 1, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> I prefer the right arrow to show the buffers. I would like the tiles to be smaller, though. The base functionality of right for buffers, left for favorites, up for live guide, down for suggestions and guide for grid guide is nicely done except for the size of the tiles. It is why I scoff when people say it takes more buttons to do things in hydra. To see the old buffers, you have to hit info then arrow to them. One key and I see them.


Agreed. The size of tiles makes it annoying to me. A condensed view for tuners and favs would be ideal. I'd also like to see them let us include apps into the favs list instead of just favorite cable channels. I assume the tiles are related to them trying to leverage the already cached images so perhaps they don't want to cache mini/condensed versions of the images too? If that is the case, I'm fine with station logos (or Vudu, Youtube, etc. logos for favs).

BTW - I'm sure you know this but the right-cursor does the same thing as info button in TE3. So in TE4 they just re-purposed the info button but the right-cursor still works. Took me a few minutes to get used to hitting right-cursor instead of info but its not a big deal since they are literally co-located on the remote.


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## 172pilot (Jan 8, 2004)

HerronScott said:


> In April 2016, they had over 6 million cable/MSO subscriptions and 974 thousand retail subscriptions though.


AND.. in addition to being over 6x the numbers, I'd imagine that most of those cable contracts are bringing in monthly dollars, whereas most of the retail subs are lifetime subs which aren't bringing in any further dollars.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

172pilot said:


> AND.. in addition to being over 6x the numbers, I'd imagine that most of those cable contracts are bringing in monthly dollars, whereas most of the retail subs are lifetime subs which aren't bringing in any further dollars.


Not sure if we have any way of telling how many retail subscriptions are lifetime or monthly/annual, but I seem to recall that it was reported to also include Mini's of which the later ones included All-in/Lifetime (and that also reduces the number of retail users).

Scott


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

nrc said:


> I won't willingly switch to Hydra without a Live Guide.


I bought a Bolt OTA so I could record football games without my cable company's compression turning the picture into an impressionist painting. I've never switched my cable Bolt to Hydra so this was my first exposure.

I don't see Hydra as much of an improvement other than all the "new hotness" graphics. But it's not as terrible as I feared. Navigation doesn't always make sense and you're to often guessing which remote button will get you where you need to go. But I don't hate it as much as I thought I would. I won't be switching my cable Bolt but I could live with it. My wife agrees which is critical. So if the day comes when they force it we'll be ok.

As for the guide, I still hate the grid guide. Even as grid guides go it's pretty ugly and it doesn't always operate as expected. I select what appears to be the current show on another channel and it asks me if I want to record? What? Change the stupid channel.

I do find that it's less of an issue than I expected. I don't channel surf that much. I go looking for things in the future on my favorite channels. For that purpose the "single line" guide is a serviceable substitute for the TiVo guide. In fact, it's on case where the "box art" is actually helpful.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

nrc said:


> I select what appears to be the current show on another channel and it asks me if I want to record? What? Change the stupid channel.


???


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## mlsnyc (Dec 3, 2009)

nrc said:


> I select what appears to be the current show on another channel and it asks me if I want to record? What? Change the stupid channel.


When this happens to me, it's usually because the show I've selected is not yet playing. For example, it's 9:14pm but the show doesn't start until 9:15 but the guide already has that as the show currently playing on the channel.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

nrc said:


> As for the guide, I still hate the grid guide. Even as grid guides go it's pretty ugly and it doesn't always operate as expected. I select what appears to be the current show on another channel and it asks me if I want to record? What? Change the stupid channel.





mlsnyc said:


> When this happens to me, it's usually because the show I've selected is not yet playing. For example, it's 9:14pm but the show doesn't start until 9:15 but the guide already has that as the show currently playing on the channel.


Right, because TiVo chose, as a default, to shift the starting point for the guide to the next half hour if you're within a few minutes of the half-hour (I haven't tested what the actual threshold is), requiring the user to navigate left to get back to present time.

The other time I see this behavior (failure to immediately tune to a channel) is when navigating up or down in present time, and I press select on a channel ... but the selected show has already ended. I see this as a bug. Unless the user has shifted right or left within the guide, the selected show should always be whatever is currently airing, not whatever is listed at the half-hour start point or what was current when the guide was opened. (This is one aspect I miss from the ReplayTV, where shows that have ended had a grey background, distinguishing them from live, and a shortcoming relative to other guides that more clearly communicate the current time.)


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

krkaufman said:


> Right, because TiVo chose, as a default, to shift the starting point for the guide to the next half hour if you're within a few minutes of the half-hour (I haven't tested what the actual threshold is), requiring the user to navigate left to get back to present time.


Yes, this must be what I was encountering. I really don't want to have to explain to my wife that she may sometimes have to go back in time to tune to another channel. That's stupid.

If they're presenting something as the current show on the grid then selecting it should tune it. Of course then if you hit record thinking you've just tuned to the program they're showing on the guide, you're really recording the last minute of the previous show. So again, shifting the grid early seems like a stupid design.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Hmm. I haven’t actually noticed it advancing early. But what I have seen is if show ends prior to the half hour but has already, it is selected rather than the current show.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Just compared TE3 and TE4. With TE3 the guide jumps to the next 30 minute block 6 minutes before that block starts. With TE4 the guide jumps on the exact time. Also, the progress bar on the guide is nice. Each has its advantages. I do prefer the thirty minute advance of TE3, but I can still use the TiVo without it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Just compared TE3 and TE4. With TE3 the guide jumps to the next 30 minute block 6 minutes before that block starts. With TE4 the guide jumps on the exact time. Also, the progress bar on the guide is nice. Each has its advantages. I do prefer the thirty minute advance of TE3, but I can still use the TiVo without it.


That confirms my memory. I prefer jumping on the exact time.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TonyD79 said:


> That confirms my memory. I prefer jumping on the exact time.


The world's not perfect. At 4pm EDT, South Park eps ends at 4:35pm and Volcano ends at 4:04pm. That's where people get confused.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Let's talk it up out there guys!


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