# Run far, far away



## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

I documented some issues that I had with TiVo back in the June timeframe. In a nutshell, I ordered 3 devices from a TiVo sale for a total of $1067.40 (on 6/28).

It didn't work out, and I returned them almost immediately via TiVo prepaid shipping label. On 7/8 TiVo credited me $104.21 for one of the mini's on the RMA and that's the last bit of money they've returned to me.

According to TiVo, their current policy for returns/refunds is that the money will not be returned all at once, but as a part of a "staggered process of payments". They admit that I have returned all of the gear nearly a month ago and it was processed, but I should expect to continue to receive the remainder of my money over time. If I dispute this with my credit card, they have the ability to terminate service on "lifetime" devices that I've had in use for years.

I would advise that this is the behavior of a company swirling the bowl. They must be having serious cash issues if this is the type of thing they are intentionally doing to customers.

Buyer beware. I should note that this is coming from a customer of nearly every device since Series 1, and a TiVo beta tester.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I would contact your ccard company ASAP.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

jrtroo said:


> I would contact your ccard company ASAP.


Agree, contact your credit card company, NOW.


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## robostock (Feb 8, 2008)

brentsg said:


> According to TiVo, their current policy for returns/refunds is that they money will not be returned all at once, but as a part of a "staggered process of payments".


I truly empathize with how you feel on having your money held hostage. You did everything right and have been a loyal customer for a long time, only to be treated without any respect. Most reputable merchants refund within a few days of receiving their merchandise. I have received refunds from Amazon within hours of it being dropped off at UPS. It's frustrating because I really do think their products (Series 3, Bolt+ and Mini) are the best in the business.

It's almost like they're two separate companies. 
Equipment = Very good
Customer Support = Very Bad


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## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

This is a very, very, very bad sign. I would definitely contact your credit card company and simply ask if it within the terms of their agreement that a seller can "threaten" to take punitive action against someone with a legitimate claim due to their refusal to return funds of a buyer. This seems almost like extortion of a sort. 
If you are still not comfortable, file a dispute on the charges.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

I usually defend TiVo when people complain, but I have to admit that is a pretty underhanded business tactic if true.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Well I can assure you that it's true. I'm in TiVo hell I guess.

Regarding the dispute, I ordered via Discover and it's clearly on my statement and I can view the charge online. When I try to dispute the order Discover alleges that the charge doesn't exist, and that there was never a TiVo authorization against my account. That's BS too because they charged me twice and one eventually fell off. I went around and around with them over that at the time too. Argh..

I've tried to get a supervisor a couple of times at TiVo and they just put me on hold forever until I give up.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

I did finally get the credit card company part figured out. They claim they were having a "system issue" and therefore couldn't see the TiVo charges, only the single small credit.

Dispute is open so I'm sure it'll be fun from here. It was returned via Fedex, so it was easy to get the tracking info along with the signature at TiVo for a 17 pound parcel that arrived at their site a month ago.


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## UCLABB (May 29, 2012)

brentsg said:


> I would advise that this is the behavior of a company swirling the bowl. They must be having serious cash issues if this is the type of thing they are intentionally doing to customers.
> 
> Buyer beware. I should note that this is coming from a customer of nearly every device since Series 1, and a TiVo beta tester.


I don't think it is cash issues, they have plenty of money. It's more of a management competence issue, imo.


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## Nickipedia (Jul 18, 2015)

UCLABB said:


> I don't think it is cash issues, they have plenty of money. It's more of a management competence issue, imo.


Does this mean they didn't spend all of their cash fixing the guide data?!


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## Millionaire2K (Jun 16, 2008)

Hmm, seems odd. I returned 2 Tivos the other week totaling $900. I got full refunds about 2 days after they got the boxes back. They said it could be 2-3 weeks but it was less than 1 week.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I wonder if "payback over time" is even legal, when they hold the returned equipment.

Here's an idea: start a dispute resolution with TiVo, under its dispute resolution policy. That will attract attention by it.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

brentsg said:


> According to TiVo, their current policy for returns/refunds is that the money will not be returned all at once, but as a part of a "staggered process of payments". They admit that I have returned all of the gear nearly a month ago and it was processed, but I should expect to continue to receive the remainder of my money over time. If I dispute this with my credit card, they have the ability to terminate service on "lifetime" devices that I've had in use for years.


Do you have a link to this policy or is this something they told you over the phone? Turning off the service to a Tivo that isn't part of this transaction is theft and threatening to do so for your compliance is extortion.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

brentsg said:


> I did finally get the credit card company part figured out. They claim they were having a "system issue" and therefore couldn't see the TiVo charges, only the single small credit.
> 
> Dispute is open so I'm sure it'll be fun from here. It was returned via Fedex, so it was easy to get the tracking info along with the signature at TiVo for a 17 pound parcel that arrived at their site a month ago.


I think you are better off doing the dispute resolution suggested earlier rather than the credit card dispute, at least initially.

There is nothing written in their return policy regarding staggered credits.

The reason I suggest the dispute resolution is other people have had success cutting through red tape using it, since presumably, the next step is arbitration or small claims, which would cost TiVo even more money.

The second reason is it has been pointed out that TiVo in the past has credited people after they won their dispute then come back later (so you got two credits, one from dispute, and one from TiVo that came late) then months later they figure it out, and come back and charge you again because you got credited twice. I don't even know how it is legal from them to charge you later on to fix their own screw up, but they seem to do it.

Also TiVo has been known to send people to collections over very small amounts, let alone large amounts, and it wouldn't be surprising if they got confused and thought you owed them money.

My first instinct is always to dispute with the credit card company, but I have never encountered a company like TiVo with such shady practices.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

If they turn off service I'd get the name of the manager who made that decision and go to the FBI about their execution of an extortion. Somebody could see jail time.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

series5orpremier said:


> If they turn off service I'd get the name of the manager who made that decision and go to the FBI about their execution of an extortion. Somebody could see jail time.


Unless the manager was russian and the user was trump this type of complaint would be very low priority at the FBI. They would consider this a civil court matter.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

any speculation is ridiculous, tivo _must_ refund the charges in a reasonable amount of time, once they receive the product within their own return policy.

there are not only legal issues at play, but also credit card agreements covering this transaction, both between the customer and the credit card issuer, and between tivo and the credit card company that enables them to accept the payment - these are violations all around, whether customer service knows it, or not.

if a supervisor in tivo's billing department is not able to resolve this once and for all, contact your credit card company immediately, and begin the process to dispute the charge - don't wait another day.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Regarding the "policy", all of this was relayed to me over the phone with customer service. When I requested a supervisor, they put me on hold and never returned. I was on the phone over an hour yesterday, so my patience was thin. When my issues were going on in June/July, I spent probably 5-7 hours on the phone with them total, so I'm pretty much done with it. If they want to disconnect my service for involving the credit card company then I'll make life as painful for them as I can, but honestly I'm pretty much done with them as it is. All I did was send my credit card company the proof that the gear was returned a month ago and that someone at TiVo signed for it. I even sent them the signature. They don't have a leg to stand on.

One of the issues I had (before) is that TiVo made a better sale price available before I even received the gear from them. They offered to match the price, but wanted to do so via a credit AFTER my 30 day return policy was expired. I wasn't comfortable, as I'd seen enough shady behavior from them by this time that I just sent the stuff back. Little did I expect that they'd pull the same crap with my refund. I was as exuberant a TiVo evangelist as you'd find, but I'm done with them now. The company I loved doesn't exist.



sfhub said:


> The second reason is it has been pointed out that TiVo in the past has credited people after they won their dispute then come back later (so you got two credits, one from dispute, and one from TiVo that came late) then months later they figure it out, and come back and charge you again because you got credited twice. I don't even know how it is legal from them to charge you later on to fix their own screw up, but they seem to do it.
> 
> Also TiVo has been known to send people to collections over very small amounts, let alone large amounts, and it wouldn't be surprising if they got confused and thought you owed them money.


I'll keep a close eye on things and make sure they don't credit me twice. If they do, I'll (try to) get that straightened out ASAP. I am not looking to cheat them on this, so I won't let them accidentally credit me more than they owe me (though with the time they've wasted, that's easily worth the price of the Bolt+ I sent back). And if they are a company that would really send to collections over being "confused" then I don't want to do business with them any longer. They can deal with the lawyer at that point, even if it costs me more than this current amount.

I actually had this happen once. When I signed an apartment lease I had questioned why I had to sign a pet agreement since I didn't have a pet. They said it covered the duration of the lease in case I did get a pet. Anyways, the pet agreement had a REFUNDABLE deposit in there. Sure enough, I got a pet and they wanted to void the one I'd signed so I could sign a new agreement with a non-refundable deposit. Nope, sorry guys.. I'm already covered remember? When I moved out they wrote me a check for my refundable deposit, then like 6 months later sent that amount to collection. I didn't find out until I was trying to buy a house. That was a pain in the ass for sure.


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## Fant (Sep 1, 2016)

It's stories like this that keep me from recommending tivos to others. I'm ok using it myself and dealing with any issues that may come up but I sure as hell don't want friends and family to have issues and then blame me for recommending it. If anyone at TiVo is reading this please do the right thing.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Fant said:


> It's stories like this that keep me from recommending tivos to others. I'm ok using it myself and dealing with any issues that may come up but I sure as hell don't want friends and family to have issues and then blame me for recommending it. If anyone at TiVo is reading this please do the right thing.


I think TiVo has been in this category since cable TV went from analog to digital, i.e., requiring CableCARD's and Tuning Adapters. Since then I would recommend TiVo only to very patient, tech savvy people. Fortunately for TiVo the competition was pretty bad and still is. Now we have the crappy program guide data from Rovi worsening the TiVo experience with no sign it's going to improve after a year. And then there are the credit card horror stories as in this thread. We need to be careful about taking these stories at face value since we only get one side of the them -- but there sure is a lot of smoke at least. I doubt I will trust or value TiVo enough to buy another one after my current Roamio Basic with lifetime fails. Streaming TV, in my case via Fire TV, is looking better all the time, and has the added bonus of not having to deal with my local cable TV monopoly.


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## sdawson (Aug 18, 2016)

Please keep us posted on the eventual outcome.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Tivo is a Big company. "For fiscal year 2017, the Company tightened its expected revenue range to $810 million to $830 million" Press Release | TiVo


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Fant said:


> It's stories like this that keep me from recommending tivos to others. I'm ok using it myself and dealing with any issues that may come up but I sure as hell don't want friends and family to have issues and then blame me for recommending it. If anyone at TiVo is reading this please do the right thing.


It's funny you mention this, because that's what got me worked up with TiVo to begin with. I actually did recommend them to a very skeptical family member, and they wound up trying a half-dozen times to place an order during the summer sale. It was the last day of the sale, and a Sunday. Every order attempt placed a hold on the funds on the credit card side, but zero of them resulted in a successful order on the TiVo side. He called them Monday expecting them to simply honor the price and they told him to go pound sand. It took like a week for all the credit card holds to drop. Then I went through my own cycle, when the offer to transfer service from an older device was offered. My sale purchase wasn't even in hand yet and a better offer was on the table.

Anyways, it just so happens that my credit card company killed my card and sent a new one, due to some unrelated fraud activity. Hopefully that won't add another layer of garbage on top of the already pending dispute. At least I won't have to worry about them charging the card later on.. so they'd have to notify me if they decided they want money again (mistakenly).



jth tv said:


> Tivo is a Big company. "For fiscal year 2017, the Company tightened its expected revenue range to $810 million to $830 million" Press Release | TiVo


I won't pretend to know what their situation is and I'm not going to bother researching it, only that their behavior is not acceptable. A company can have $810M in revenue and be headed into bankruptcy.


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## matsalla (Jul 15, 2003)

I want to thank this thread from reminding me to look into a return I did last month. I returned over $1800 of equipment over 2 orders. I received 4 emails from Tivo that they received all the equipment on July 17, with the disclaimer that the credit would be in 7-10 days. I had assumed it proceeded with the credit. Well I looked at my credit card info after reading through this thread, and see they credited one of the orders of over $800 on July 18. But no credit for the remaining items. So I called today and sure enough they confirmed they received the equipment but they could not tell my why they have not issued me the credit yet. They said they were doing an investigation and to give them 1-2 days. I do not hold out much hope. It is remarkable that they can not just take care of the credit right then and there.


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## steelersruleman (Aug 29, 2014)

Maybe TIVO is realizing the end is near. So they just don't care about ROVI ruining CABLE LINEUPS. 

More and more people, myself included now, are going OTA with our TIVO's(Roamio/3TB HDD/Lifetime/Tivo Mini w Liftime/Tivo Stream), so that solves the guide problem, and cuts cable bill in half(the BIGGER REASON).

Add in Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, MLB.TV, Sling and PS Vue(when I WANT IT), Mobdro, KODI, Terrarium TV, etc... and I get MORE tv now, and about a 1/3 of the cost for MORE tv then I could possibly watch.

I love my TIVO. have had it for about 3 years, so I am a newbie compared to most.

Would NOT recommend it too ANYONE because of the above listed problems.

Shame. TIVO is simply destroying itself.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

steelersruleman said:


> Maybe TIVO is realizing the end is near. So they just don't care about ROVI ruining CABLE LINEUPS.
> 
> More and more people, myself included now, are going OTA with our TIVO's(Roamio/3TB HDD/Lifetime/Tivo Mini w Liftime/Tivo Stream), so that solves the guide problem, and cuts cable bill in half(the BIGGER REASON).


It doesn't help MY guide lineups. This weekend I had four guide errors with CW, ABC, and two with NBC. I just got a blank title with the "new" logo, not even "NBC programming." My FIOS DVR downstairs was just fine.


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## steelersruleman (Aug 29, 2014)

Mine's been fine since the switch. The OTA has been more accurate than my cable ever was(Spectrum/TWC/NE Pennsylvania).


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

People are making this far too complicated. You return an item. You don't get a refund in a reasonable time frame. No reason to keep calling asking for your money. No reason to start dispute resolution/arbitration. File a credit card dispute. You'll get an immediate (temporary) credit. Tivo is given a period of time, I think 30 days, to justify keeping your money. Your credit becomes permanent when tivo doesn't respond. 

I'll assume, without any evidence, tivo wants to examine the returned items. Make sure the serial numbers match. Make sure you didn't damage the item, possibly when replacing the hard drive. That might explain getting a refund on one item. Credit card dispute works well. Tivo will have 30 days to examine the item and file a response if you returned a different unit or shipped a brick.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

lew said:


> People are making this far too complicated. You return an item. You don't get a refund in a reasonable time frame. No reason to keep calling asking for your money. No reason to start dispute resolution/arbitration. File a credit card dispute. You'll get an immediate (temporary) credit. Tivo is given a period of time, I think 30 days, to justify keeping your money. Your credit becomes permanent when tivo doesn't respond.


if enough customers simply followed this procedure, it would eventually have the effect of tivo adjusting their procedures, too. if one retailer suddenly has multiple customers disputing credit card charges, it can put that retailer's ability to accept any credit cards at risk. this tends to straighten out any unfair refund policies.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, TiVo is at it again. If you recall, I returned 2 Mini's and a Bolt+. TiVo received them on 7/7 and credited me for 1 Mini on 7/8. After going in circles, a credit card dispute got the rest of my money back.

Well, today they (tried to) credit me for the second Mini on 8/29. If I had let nature take its course, I'd now still be waiting for the refund on the Bolt+, nearly 2 months later.

Off to call the credit card company to ensure they weren't successful in giving me more money back.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Makes me glad that when they charged me full price rather than the upgrade price for a Bolt, I returned it rather than buying their "We'll refund the difference once the return period has expired" story.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lew said:


> People are making this far too complicated. You return an item. You don't get a refund in a reasonable time frame. No reason to keep calling asking for your money. No reason to start dispute resolution/arbitration. File a credit card dispute. You'll get an immediate (temporary) credit. Tivo is given a period of time, I think 30 days, to justify keeping your money. Your credit becomes permanent when tivo doesn't respond.
> 
> I'll assume, without any evidence, tivo wants to examine the returned items. Make sure the serial numbers match. Make sure you didn't damage the item, possibly when replacing the hard drive. That might explain getting a refund on one item. Credit card dispute works well. Tivo will have 30 days to examine the item and file a response if you returned a different unit or shipped a brick.


One issue I seem to recall having read (or did I dream this?): a TiVo threat to terminate a user's other boxes if this route was taken.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> One issue I seem to recall having read (or did I dream this?): a TiVo threat to terminate a user's other boxes if this route was taken.


You didn't dream it.



brentsg said:


> If I dispute this with my credit card, they have the ability to terminate service on "lifetime" devices that I've had in use for years.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Hard to believe the top dudes would approve of such nastiness. 
Committee Charters | TiVo


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> One issue I seem to recall having read (or did I dream this?): a TiVo threat to terminate a user's other boxes if this route was taken.


I interpret that as BS from a CSR. I question if a CSR has the ability to cancel LS. TiVo likes being able to accept credit cards. A pattern of retaliatory service termination for valid credit card charge backs. Not going to happen.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

jth tv said:


> Hard to believe the top dudes would approve of such nastiness.
> Committee Charters | TiVo


LOL. And we all know that nothing ever happens in an organization that the "top dudes" would not approve of. I suspect TiVo's top dudes are conveniently unaware of these credit card abuses. Maybe some emails directly to the them would help -- if that is possible.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Well I have a final resolution to this.. and then some.

I won my dispute against TiVo with the credit card company on 8/7, so at that point I had a full refund.

I've been unsuccessful in trying to stop TiVo from continuing to give me money, even with changing credit card numbers. Somehow it flowed thru anyways. As of an expected post to the card tomorrow (based on an e-mail just now), I owe TiVo $818.99. They've processed 3 separate credit transactions since the 8/7 resolution. They seem to have no idea what's going on, and I need to straighten out this mess.


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

brentsg said:


> Well I have a final resolution to this.. and then some.
> 
> I won my dispute against TiVo with the credit card company on 8/7, so at that point I had a full refund.
> 
> I've been unsuccessful in trying to stop TiVo from continuing to give me money, even with changing credit card numbers. Somehow it flowed thru anyways. As of an expected post to the card tomorrow (based on an e-mail just now), I owe TiVo $818.99. They've processed 3 separate credit transactions since the 8/7 resolution. They seem to have no idea what's going on, and I need to straighten out this mess.


Run far, far away

Run far, far away


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi.. just wanted to provide another update in case anyone still trusts TiVo.

Eventually TiVo refunded me the entire amount that they originally owed, but it took roughly 3 months and 5 separate payments that were staggered. Unfortunately that means that they refunded all the money that my credit card company had already awarded to me through the dispute process. As such, I canceled the dispute after I had my piecemeal refund in hand. The dispute money went back to TiVo on 11/22/17 as confirmed by the credit card company, so everyone was even at that time.

Well... today was the day that TiVo finally realized that I did a dispute (8/7/17 - 3/26/18). Since it'll likely take them another 7-8 months to realize that they also got that dispute money back already, they are currently trying to charge me the full amount to start the whole damn process over again. Honestly I have no idea how many hours I've burned on this issue. I was notified in the form of an e-mail that is tracked by Salesforce, but that doesn't accept responses. That's pretty poor IMO.

I called their customer service to explain the whole ordeal and their solution was to have me e-mail the whole saga to [email protected]. I guess that's the only way to get it to someone with any authority that has any hope of fixing this. The credit card company explained that TiVo should be working all of this through their Merchant Services team (standard procedure), but TiVo insists on dealing with me in a convoluted fashion instead. They want me to get a letter from the credit card company confirming the refund on 11/22/17, then they want me to e-mail a copy of the letter to them. Honestly I don't think they could be any more incompetent. It'll take me a week to get said letter in hand so who knows what stupid things they will do by then.


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## matsalla (Jul 15, 2003)

You should immediately contact the Tivo Executive Relations Team. I eventually had to contact them, after contacting them my issue was resolved in a 2-3 days.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

You are many, many months past the time where you should ever consider attempting to resolve anything with them verbally. Letter, certified mail, exclusively. Every single communication. Period. And the immediate thing with the new charge is simply to dispute it as an unauthorized transaction. Because that is exactly what this one is.


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

dswallow said:


> You are many, many months past the time where you should ever consider attempting to resolve anything with them verbally. Letter, certified mail, exclusively. Every single communication. Period. And the immediate thing with the new charge is simply to dispute it as an unauthorized transaction. Because that is exactly what this one is.


Well it was resolved until today, but I agree. I just sent an inquiry to the Executive contact thing and I'll draft up something to mail as well. Thanks for the suggestions.

Edit: Actually I just engaged my attorney and I'll go that route rather than trying to do it myself.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

Quite the story. Sad thing is other than internet tv, there is no better DVR than Tivo. Incompetent and rude and threatening but the boxes kick cable's ass. We are like guys who still love that special girl in high school. She may be married with kids but ...


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## brentsg (Sep 19, 2004)

Well the Executive Relations aren't any better so far. I requested to conduct communication via E-mail so I'll have a record, but they insist on handling it verbally.

They want to discuss a "plan for resolution" when all they need to do is talk to my credit card company, which they refuse to do. I mean a non-dysfunctional company would be able to confirm a financial transaction internally to begin with.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

brentsg said:


> Hi.. just wanted to provide another update in case anyone still trusts TiVo.
> 
> Eventually TiVo refunded me the entire amount that they originally owed, but it took roughly 3 months and 5 separate payments that were staggered. Unfortunately that means that they refunded all the money that my credit card company had already awarded to me through the dispute process. As such, I canceled the dispute after I had my piecemeal refund in hand. The dispute money went back to TiVo on 11/22/17 as confirmed by the credit card company, so everyone was even at that time.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't have canceled the dispute because you were threatened with cancellation of service on your other Tivos as retaliation for the credit card dispute. You have the right to hold the additional funds in anticipation of the financial loss of the canceled lifetime service. Certainly, Tivo would not cancel your lifetime service without compensating you the fair market value of $549 per box.


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