# I will be leaving tivo soon



## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I been using windows media center with a 4 tuner ceton card and a 2 tuner antenna card for 6 tuners and a 3 terabite harddrive.

I never planed to leave tivo. but i built a very fast gaming pc to
replace my old and slow ps3. Then i wanted to see if my computer could replace my tivo hd and my blu-ray player. and it could.

my windows 7 computer replaced my ps3, blu-ray player and tivo hd.


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## jjd_87 (Jan 31, 2011)

Enjoy your headache!


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Its not a headache. the only problem i have is with hibernate mode. Sometimes my computer will wake up from hibernate mode to record a show and lock up. but it only happens every 2 weeks. I think its my video driver.



jjd_87 said:


> Enjoy your headache!


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Personally, that is the kind of headache I have a tivo for. I'm guessing you did not have lifetime on your tivo box.

You are doing all of these activities with one PC? Or are you using the new one for games and the old one as a DVR?


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## Rebate_King (Nov 10, 2004)

bye


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## LifeIsABeach (Feb 28, 2001)

tootal2 said:


> Its not a headache. the only problem i have is with hibernate mode. Sometimes my computer will wake up from hibernate mode to record a show and lock up. but it only happens every 2 weeks. I think its my video driver.


Hibernation mode always causes me probems. The first thing I do when I get a new computer is turn it off.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

tootal2 said:


> Its not a headache. the only problem i have is with hibernate mode. Sometimes my computer will wake up from hibernate mode to record a show and lock up. but it only happens every 2 weeks. I think its my video driver.


So, you miss shows once every 2 weeks?

That's FAR too often.

BTW, I actually like the IDEA of using something like this, but I like tweaking things. If only some of this competition actually got "good enough" to seriously give TiVo a run for its money, that would be great.

In other words, the Ceton DVR thing coming out some eon is intriguing to me, but hopefully it is more thoroughly integrated/tested that it will be much more like a consumer electronics device..

Obviously your PC can't play PS3 games, so it doesn't really replace that.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Its a lifetime tivo but its costing me 4.00 a month for the cable cards. it still running right now. but i havent used it in months.

I might buy a tivo in the future if has 4 tuners and ota



jrtroo said:


> Personally, that is the kind of headache I have a tivo for. I'm guessing you did not have lifetime on your tivo box.
> 
> You are doing all of these activities with one PC? Or are you using the new one for games and the old one as a DVR?


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

mattack said:


> So, you miss shows once every 2 weeks?
> 
> That's FAR too often.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing on the PS3. They just dont release the same games for both these days


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

almost all games are released on the pc. but some games are ps3 only or xbox only. i wont be buying anymore ps3 games i just buy them for the pc.

the ps3 is 6 year old technology



compnurd said:


> I was thinking the same thing on the PS3. They just dont release the same games for both these days


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

Does it really matter if the system is 6 years old? Games are developed and tailored for the system specs so it does not really matter how old it is


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> I been using windows media center with a 4 tuner ceton card and a 2 tuner antenna card for 6 tuners and a 3 terabite harddrive.
> 
> I never planed to leave tivo. but i built a very fast gaming pc to
> replace my old and slow ps3. Then i wanted to see if my computer could replace my tivo hd and my blu-ray player. and it could.
> ...


Nice. I've got a Ceton InfiniTV4, an HDHomeRun Prime, two Hauppauge 2250's and a dual tuner HDHomeRun for a total of seven digital cable tuners and six ATSC tuners. Both HDHomeRuns are shared with other PCs. I've also got a 21TB server with about 1,000 Blu-Rays and DVDs that can be shared with any PC in the house. All of my TVs except one are connected to individual HTPCs.

FWIW, a properly configured HTPC is no more problematic than a Tivo. Mine's been up and running with no issues for well over two years. The S3 Tivo has been unplugged for months and is not missed one bit.


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## Xab (May 21, 2004)

jjd_87 said:


> Enjoy your headache!


This is so true. I just came back to TiVo from a setup very similar to yours. I got so tired of the noise of a PC, the unreliability (6-8 missed recordings EVERY week, pages of notifications daily about tuners not available for no reason).


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

My WMC pc works great. I built it in November. Wife likes it. The 360 extender on a 2nd TV also has worked great - much better than I thought.

I probably would still own a TiVo Premiere if the menus had been responsive.

WMC ain't perfect. A few hiccups over 8 months of use. Nothing I couldn't fix in a minute or two. But anyone without computer knowledge might not be so lucky.

I didn't find it ideal to use as a gaming pc and a dvr though. The gaming video card was loud and probably not power efficient under small loads. Not sure gaming mixed with the dvr part either. I had the feeling that they messed with each other a bit at least in my experience. Ad it made it less wife-proof. So now I have a separate gaming machine and WMC pc.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Xab said:


> This is so true. I just came back to TiVo from a setup very similar to yours. I got so tired of the noise of a PC, the unreliability (6-8 missed recordings EVERY week, pages of notifications daily about tuners not available for no reason).


Sorry to hear you had issues with your setup. Chances are you had some bad drivers or hardware incompatibilities or just tried using components that were outdated. I see people trying to build an HTPC out of an old computer or box of old components they have lying around and wonder why it doesn't work like they expect. I've had issues with HTPC builds in the past and it always turned out to be the result of faulty hardware. Most HTPCs I've put together work just fine with no issues. There are numerous guides for building HTPCs with lists of recommended components posted in the Home Theater Computer forum at the AVS Forums in the sticky threads. Check out Assassin's HTPC blog for a comprehensive list of guides he put together for configuring any type of hardware and software setup in an HTPC.

With today's hardware it's almost inconceivable that anyone can't get a working Media Center PC as long as the hardware is functioning normally. Mine's been every bit as reliable as any Tivo I've ever owned. PC noise can be greatly attenuated by using fan controllers or quieter fans. Check out silentpcreview.com for a long list of recommended hardware to build a dead silent PC.

The tuner not available message is very common, but it doesn't usually result in missed recordings unless you've got some flaky tuners. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for the tuner to be initialized by Media Center before it can tune to a channel. PC tuners tend to change channels a bit slower than most so the response time can lag a bit. If it can't tune the channel immediately when prompted to do so you'll get the error message. Media Center will keep polling all available tuners until it finds one that can tune to the channel. I get the message all the time but I haven't missed any recordings. In fact, in the five years or so that I've been using HTPCs for recording I can't recall ever missing more than a handful of recordings. The ones I did miss were a result of USB tuners dropping offline due to a flaky external USB hub.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

some people think the desktop pc is obsolete. they sure are wrong.

im tootal2 on steam



mr.unnatural said:


> Sorry to hear you had issues with your setup. Chances are you had some bad drivers or hardware incompatibilities or just tried using components that were outdated. I see people trying to build an HTPC out of an old computer or box of old components they have lying around and wonder why it doesn't work like they expect. I've had issues with HTPC builds in the past and it always turned out to be the result of faulty hardware. Most HTPCs I've put together work just fine with no issues. There are numerous guides for building HTPCs with lists of recommended components posted in the Home Theater Computer forum at the AVS Forums in the sticky threads. Check out Assassin's HTPC blog for a comprehensive list of guides he put together for configuring any type of hardware and software setup in an HTPC.
> 
> With today's hardware it's almost inconceivable that anyone can't get a working Media Center PC as long as the hardware is functioning normally. Mine's been every bit as reliable as any Tivo I've ever owned. PC noise can be greatly attenuated by using fan controllers or quieter fans. Check out silentpcreview.com for a long list of recommended hardware to build a dead silent PC.
> 
> The tuner not available message is very common, but it doesn't usually result in missed recordings unless you've got some flaky tuners. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for the tuner to be initialized by Media Center before it can tune to a channel. PC tuners tend to change channels a bit slower than most so the response time can lag a bit. If it can't tune the channel immediately when prompted to do so you'll get the error message. Media Center will keep polling all available tuners until it finds one that can tune to the channel. I get the message all the time but I haven't missed any recordings. In fact, in the five years or so that I've been using HTPCs for recording I can't recall ever missing more than a handful of recordings. The ones I did miss were a result of USB tuners dropping offline due to a flaky external USB hub.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Desktop PCs aren't going anywhere. Laptops aren't practical for many purposes and tablets have limited uses. Desktops are less expensive and easier to maintain and upgrade.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I moved my tivo hd to my bedroom for a few more months till the ceton echo comes out.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I scrapped my Media Center setup after I got tired of it constantly recording repeats. It wasn't smart enough to know it recorded the 8:00 PM showing so that it wouldn't record the 11:00 PM showing. As a result I kept missing shows I wanted because it was recording the same show multiple times. Then of course there were the repeat recordings because the guide data was crappy yet TiVo had correct data. 

I also got tired of Media Center crashing when trying to use the advanced conflict resolution. Apparently this bug has been around since the original Media Center.

The final straw was when it killed the CableCARD. One day the CableCARD stopped working and the four cards I tried after that all stopped working after a couple days. I finally pulled the tuner and turned off Media Center. We haven't missed it either. At this point I don't even know if we will consider the Ceton Q since Microsoft clearly has no plans on ever doing anything with Media Center to improve the experience.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The repeat recording issue is one of WMC's biggest flaws, IMO. Not a prob if you have enough tuners, but still a pain in the butt because you always have to delete stupid stuff that it thinks it should record because of bad guide data or whatever.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I probably would still own a TiVo Premiere if the menus had been responsive.


The SD menus are very responsive, so that's not a real reason to leave. I agree that Tivo either blew it with Flash or don't have good enough programmers for it on the HD side.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Maybe I'm just lucky, but in 8 months WMC has never recorded a repeat or crashed. It also seems to do a better job on first-run SPs when an episode gets cancelled at the last minute and rescheduled for a later airing.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

WMC only records what you tell it to, just like Tivo does. Don't blame WMC because the guide data doesn't flag a show as a repeat. WMC records what it believes to be a new airing of a show based on what it's being told. If it's a flaw then Tivo suffers from the exact same problem. Tivo will record any show that's not flagged as a repeat unless it aired within the past 28 days. I just love how people blame WMC for the exact same issues that a Tivo has, yet they seem to think that Tivo's s**t doesn't stink.

FWIW, I routinely look at my list of upcoming recordings and weed out anything that I know is a repeat (like the weekly Deadliest Catch marathons), even if the guide data doesn't flag it. It only takes a minute or two to go through the list, especially if I do it as part of a daily routine. It's easier than having to delete shows after they've already been recorded. I tend to overlook issues like this because it's only a minor annoyance. The fact that I'm only paying for cablecard rental and not the Tivo service makes it so much easier to deal with.


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## macjeepster (Sep 2, 2007)

Where does a PC get the guide data? Is it free?
How does it compare to the TiVo data (which used to and may still come from Tribune)?
-mj


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC only records what you tell it to, just like Tivo does. Don't blame WMC because the guide data doesn't flag a show as a repeat. WMC records what it believes to be a new airing of a show based on what it's being told. If it's a flaw then Tivo suffers from the exact same problem. Tivo will record any show that's not flagged as a repeat unless it aired within the past 28 days. I just love how people blame WMC for the exact same issues that a Tivo has, yet they seem to think that Tivo's s**t doesn't stink.


The 28 day rule makes it an entirely different issue on WMC, and is one reason why it may not be as accurate for repeats as Tivo.

The point remains that WMC guide updates are often not as timely as Tivo's which contributes to the problem - e.g. generic Discovery eps don't get correct guide data so they get recorded in WMC, but they almost always get the correct data on Tivo before it actually records. Or the wrong show is in the slot and never gets updated.

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, btw, so it has nothing to do with sanctifying Tivo.

These guys see it too.

And so do these.

The big advantage for WMC is that the guide data costs nothing vs. paying for it on Tivo, but you get what you pay for more times than not on Tivo.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

It looks the same to me. but a few times i had only 3 days of guied data left on wmc before the guide info got updated. but that problem seems to be fixed. Tivo tells me i have o days of guide info left but has 2 weeks of info.

also wishlist are a lot better on tivo



macjeepster said:


> Where does a PC get the guide data? Is it free?
> How does it compare to the TiVo data (which used to and may still come from Tribune)?
> -mj


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> The 28 day rule makes it an entirely different issue on WMC, and is one reason why it may not be as accurate for repeats as Tivo.
> 
> The point remains that WMC guide updates are often not as timely as Tivo's which contributes to the problem - e.g. generic Discovery eps don't get correct guide data so they get recorded in WMC, but they almost always get the correct data on Tivo before it actually records. Or the wrong show is in the slot and never gets updated.
> 
> The big advantage for WMC is that the guide data costs nothing vs. paying for it on Tivo, but you get what you pay for more times than not on Tivo.


The main reason I see why WMC records repeats is that the guide data sometimes contains a generic description rather than specific metadata about the episode that's being aired. If there's no repeat flag in the data, WMC sees it as a new episode and records it. The thing is, if a Tivo sees this very same data you should get the same result. There's got to be something else the Tivo is flagging in order to make the 28-day rule work.

From the Zap2it website:



> Zap2it is a product of Tribune Media Services, which is America's leading source of entertainment listings data. TMS listings are featured in most newspapers and many on-screen programming guides, personal video recorders and top web portals. We take the TMS data and mix it with original content and services to create a unique Zap2it experience.


Both your Tivo and WMC connect on a daily basis to update guide data so I don't see how either one could be more timely than the other. With WMC I can download guide data updates on demand. With a Tivo I can connect and maybe get a guide data update if I'm lucky, but there's no guarantee it will happen if I connect before the appointed time. There is obviously something going on with the consistency between sources. I can only assume that WMC and Tivo connect to different web interfaces with Zap2it/Tribune Media to get the guide data, with one being more current than the other.



tootal2 said:


> It looks the same to me. but a few times i had only 3 days of guied data left on wmc before the guide info got updated. but that problem seems to be fixed. Tivo tells me i have o days of guide info left but has 2 weeks of info.


That was an issue with Zap2it that was resolved before anyone ran out of guide data.



> also wishlist are a lot better on tivo


This has already been established.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It has nothing to do with how often Tivo and WMC connect to the mothership to get the data, and everything to do with the quality of it. And, the WMC running out of guide data problem has been a recurring issue off and on for months now.

Bottom line is that Tivo is better here whether you choose to accept it or not, but WMC data is free.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> It has nothing to do with how often Tivo and WMC connect to the mothership to get the data, and everything to do with the quality of it. And, the WMC running out of guide data problem has been a recurring issue off and on for months now.
> 
> Bottom line is that Tivo is better here whether you choose to accept it or not, but WMC data is free.


I'm not sure where you're getting that it's been a recurring issue because I've never run out of guide data with WMC. There was an issue about six months ago where some people had either run out or were about to run out of data. It turned out to be a problem with Zap2it that was resolved within a few days after being reported. I've since seen a few instances where I may have only had 7-10 days worth of guide data, but it never fell below that. I've had the same issues with Tivo's guide data from time to time, which would make sense since both DVRs get their data from the same source.

The question remains, if both DVRs get guide data from Tribune Media/Zap2it, why would one be better than the other? Someone please explain this to me because I'm stumped.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Xab said:


> This is so true. I just came back to TiVo from a setup very similar to yours. I got so tired of the noise of a PC, the unreliability (6-8 missed recordings EVERY week, pages of notifications daily about tuners not available for no reason).


I don't know about missed recordings. Even back in 2001 when I first setup a couple of HTPCs for my HD recordings, I didn't miss them as long as the program still came on at the time I set. I would think now, as long as the guide data is right, missed recordings would be rare. The last time I used HTPCs for HD recordings was 2006 when I had several ATSC USB tuners to just mess around with and it recorded everything just fine. But the entire reason I drifted away from HTPCs for HD recording was when the HDTiVo came out in 2004 for DirecTV so I shifted most of my HD recording to the TiVo. And in 2006 when I got my S3 boxes, it killed my use of the HTPCs. Especially since I had already stopped watching DVDs in 2005 there was no use for my HTPCs anymore since I used stand alone players for my BD and HD DVD watching so I didn't need my HTPCs for watching from my SDI DVD players.
I prefer to use the TiVo over HTPCs But the HTPC should be very reliable too


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting that it's been a recurring issue because I've never run out of guide data with WMC.


I'm too lazy to go look up all the threads at thegreenbutton.tv for you again, but it's been an ongoing issue for a while now. Ceton has gotten involved with MS on multiple occasions to get the problem resolved, and in some cases it's come with folks only having 2-3 days of guide data left. You can thank the folks there and Ceton's excellent reps for making sure that we never ran out of data.


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## stcaudle12 (Jul 25, 2012)

Good luck! I like the fact that Tivo is sending updates constantly and it works like it's supposed to. PC's are a pain.


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

See ya


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I'm set in my ways now and have no desire to learn a different system. The Tivo *just works*.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

I tried a PC tuner and WMC but ran into several issues just with the cable connection. Pixelation was a constant issue (maybe it's the tuner's fault) but I also have to manually input the channel lineup and have no guide data for them. Don't really have an option for OTA where I'm at.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> I'm too lazy to go look up all the threads at thegreenbutton.tv for you again, but it's been an ongoing issue for a while now. Ceton has gotten involved with MS on multiple occasions to get the problem resolved, and in some cases it's come with folks only having 2-3 days of guide data left. You can thank the folks there and Ceton's excellent reps for making sure that we never ran out of data.


So exactly how much guide data do you need? While it's nice to be able to set up recordings days or even weeks in advance, as long as the guide data is present on the day a program airs, season passes will pick them up and record them automatically. My point was that I never missed a recording due to lack of guide data. I only record single shows on an occasional basis and have season passes set up for 99% of my recordings.

FWIW, I didn't make the transition from Tivo to HTPC overnight. I started off using my HTPC with OTA tuners to record locals because DirecTV didn't carry all of them. I watch a lot of network TV and I found myself using the HTPC for recording as much as my Tivos. I eventually switched to FIOS when it became available and bought a couple of S3 Tivos at $600 a pop. My recording chores were pretty much evenly split between cable and OTA at this point.

When the Ceton tuner became available I upgraded my HTPC to Windows 7 Media Center. I used both the Tivos and the WMC PC for recording cable programs for several months, mainly as a backup in case the HTPC didn't work the way I wanted. WMC turned out to be extremely reliable and I eventually stopped using the Tivos altogether.

The total transition from Tivo to HTPC spanned over several years so it's not something I just jumped into lightly. I had growing pains with the HTPC, but the vast majority of problems I experienced were hardware related. The current hardware and drivers are extremely stable to the point where just about anyone can put together a stable HTPC without a lot of effort. That's not to say you still won't have issues, but chances are they'll be fewer and farther between than using systems from several years ago.

HTPCs are a hobby, not an appliance. If you want a security blanket, get a Tivo. If you like to tinker and enjoy the satisfaction of building something yourself that works amazingly well, consider an HTPC. It's up to the individual to decide what's important to them.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Jeez Louise, why does every post of yours turn into a tout about how great HTPCs are, no matter what else anyone says about possible issues with WMC?

We get it.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jeez Louise, why does every post of yours turn into a tout about how great HTPCs are, no matter what else anyone says about possible issues with WMC?
> 
> We get it.


I just put him on ignore. He doesn't have a TiVo and just trolls here.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Actually, I've got quite a few Tivos. I just don't use them anymore.

FYI, if you don't like my posts I don't see anyone forcing you to read them.

What's funny is that these forums are full of people complaining about problems with Tivos. You guys are raving about how great Tivos are and ignoring the issues you have with your own hardware and software. When an alternative solution is mentioned all the Tivo fanboys jump on the bandwagon and trash it. In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is about the OP ditching Tivo in favor of an HTPC. My posts have been in keeping with the original topic.

The point is that anything electronic has issues from time to time. Some people have Tivos that work, others don't. Same goes for HTPCs. You use whatever suits your fancy.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

slowbiscuit said:


> Jeez Louise, why does every post of yours turn into a tout about how great HTPCs are, no matter what else anyone says about possible issues with WMC?
> 
> We get it.


At least he admits that HTPCs are really just for tinkerers. If he'd put that disclaimer on every post we'd have fewer issues.

Then again, anyone foolish enough to want another Windows PC in their life deserves to have another Windows PC in their life so at least he's helping to meet out just punishment for fools.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Congrats! You just referred to about 95% of the forum membership as fools. If I put the disclaimer in every post then you guys would be griping that I'm being too repetitive. Like it or not, Windows PCs are here to stay. The vast majority of the population uses them and virtually every large business uses them, regardless of what you think about them. I'm no fan of anything Microsoft but I have to admit that Windows 7 is the best thing that's come out of Redmond in decades. It's more stable than any version I've used in the past. Media Center is just icing on the cake.

I use a Windows PC every day at work. I've also used Unix workstations, Linux-based systems, and Macs. Frankly, a Windows PC does everything I need it to and I rarely have issues with them. I've been using the same Windows PC at home for years without so much as a single glitch that was software related. I've also got a Hackintosh that I built that I haven't even turned on in over a year. I stick with my Windows PC because it's what I'm used to, same as you guys are with your Tivos. It's just something that resides within your comfort zone.

I'd be curious to know what impact Win 7 with Media Center has on Tivo's subscriber numbers based on this article. Tivo's subscriber base has apparently shrunk from a peak of 4.36 million in January of 2006 to a level of 1.93 million as of July 2011. Sounds to me like there aren't as many happy Tivo customers as there used to be.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mr.unnatural said:


> Congrats! You just referred to about 95% of the forum membership as fools.


Nah, I give them the benefit of a doubt and assume that many of those who have one really don't want another.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I definitely want another. I will certainly be upgrading at least four of my systems to Windows 8.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I just got my second ceton card installed in a second computer. now i just need a ceton echo for my bedroom. 

There is one thing i like about wmc is watching the olympics in fast forward with sound.

on thing i dont like about wmc is the power use. my computer uses 100watts recording shows and upto 600 watts when playing games.
but its hibernates about 10 hours aday.


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## emphasis (Jul 28, 2012)

bye and good luck


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

nrc said:


> Nah, I give them the benefit of a doubt and assume that many of those who have one really don't want another.


Let me guess. You own a Mac, right? If that's the case then it's no wonder you don't have a problem paying outrageous fees for proprietary hardware and software with little or no upgradeability. Nice computers, but completely overpriced and overhyped.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

You don't know what you're talking about.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

You forgot macs are also bad at gaming.



mr.unnatural said:


> Let me guess. You own a Mac, right? If that's the case then it's no wonder you don't have a problem paying outrageous fees for proprietary hardware and software with little or no upgradeability. Nice computers, but completely overpriced and overhyped.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mr.unnatural said:


> Let me guess. You own a Mac, right? If that's the case then it's no wonder you don't have a problem paying outrageous fees for proprietary hardware and software with little or no upgradeability. Nice computers, but completely overpriced and overhyped.


Nope, Linux. The only Apple product I've ever purchased was a refurb iPod to run Rockbox. But I don't disagree that Apple products would probably be better for most consumers than Windows PCs.

A MS advocate complaining about Apple's proprietary hardware and software is very much a pot/kettle scenario.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Gamers do not use macs! I used redhat fedroa linux for about a year before windows 7 came out. and i like windows 7 a lot better. I did think that cube thing was kind of neat in linux.



nrc said:


> Nope, Linux. The only Apple product I've ever purchased was a refurb iPod to run Rockbox. But I don't disagree that Apple products would probably be better for most consumers than Windows PCs.
> 
> A MS advocate complaining about Apple's proprietary hardware and software is very much a pot/kettle scenario.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

nrc said:


> Nope, Linux. The only Apple product I've ever purchased was a refurb iPod to run Rockbox. But I don't disagree that Apple products would probably be better for most consumers than Windows PCs.
> 
> A MS advocate complaining about Apple's proprietary hardware and software is very much a pot/kettle scenario.


Who you calling a MS advocate? I can't stand Microsoft, regardless of what I think about Windows 7 and Media Center. I also don't like any company that hamstrings the consumer with a system that only allows the use of hardware and software they provide at ridiculous prices. I use Windows because it's what I'm used to and it also allows me a lot more choices.

Linux would have been my next guess. You're still somewhat restricted by hardware and software choices unless you know how to write your own drivers. Still, it's a bit more flexible in some ways than the Mac OS.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mattack said:


> You don't know what you're talking about.


Really? Last time I checked I couldn't just buy a new motherboard, CPU, and memory from Newegg to upgrade a Mac to the latest and greatest. It requires purchasing an entirely new Mac. I can rejuvenate my PC with a minimal investment of only $200-300 whereas a new Mac would probably cost at least 5-6 times that.


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## dan0 (Jul 7, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> I definitely want another. I will certainly be upgrading at least four of my systems to Windows 8.


I hope you dont use windows media center


> *News is circulating around the Internet that Microsoft is taking Windows Media Center out of Windows 8 and offering it as a separate paid add-on for Windows 8 Pro users. Many are not happy about the decision.*


http://www.pcworld.com/article/256629/add_windows_media_center_to_the_windows_8_release_preview.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/255060/like_windows_media_center_dont_upgrade_to_windows_8.html
http://pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Windows-Media-Center-Be-Pro-Only-Feature-Windows-8


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

No I don't use WMC. I used it some a long time ago with XP but that was it.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dan0 said:


> I hope you dont use windows media center
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/256629/add_windows_media_center_to_the_windows_8_release_preview.html
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/255060/like_windows_media_center_dont_upgrade_to_windows_8.html
> http://pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Windows-Media-Center-Be-Pro-Only-Feature-Windows-8


Microsoft will be offering Windows 8 Professional as an upgrade for $39.99 through January 31 of 2013 and will be including Media Center as a free download. The fact that many people are not happy about the decision indicates the popularity of Media Center among enthusiasts. Sadly, this is so typical of Microsoft to abandon a product that many consumers have embraced.

Considering that Windows 7 should be around for at least another 7-8 years and probably longer there's no reason to panic about the loss of Media Center. Chances are at least one third party software developer will bite the bullet and get certified by CableLabs to support the various tuners currently available.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Its going to cost 39.99 to upgrade to windows 8 with windows media center included. you have upgrade online to get this deal.

you can even upgrade xp to windows 8 for 39.99.



dan0 said:


> I hope you dont use windows media center
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/256629/add_windows_media_center_to_the_windows_8_release_preview.html
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/255060/like_windows_media_center_dont_upgrade_to_windows_8.html
> http://pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Windows-Media-Center-Be-Pro-Only-Feature-Windows-8


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You have the option to install from the website or download the files to your PC so you can burn it to a DVD or put it on a flash drive and install it from there. I believe they provide instructions for installing from a flash drive.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Desktop PCs aren't going anywhere.


Yeah, by definition...and by the same definition laptops are designed to go everywhere!!! 

'Sorry, I just couldn't resist. The target was just too easy.



mr.unnatural said:


> Laptops aren't practical for many purposes


Frankly, I consider laptops impractical for almost any use. They make unacceptable compromises to accomplish unnecessary things.



mr.unnatural said:


> and tablets have limited uses.


They do? I find it hard to think of any use for a tablet, "use" being defined as "something I would ever want to do".

'An exaggeration, of course, but not by much. They do make pretty good book readers, but my Kindle makes a better one for one whole heck of a lot less money.



mr.unnatural said:


> Desktops are less expensive and easier to maintain and upgrade.


Faster, more powerful, more storage, more flexible, support a vastly greater number of peripherals, have a screen that is actually usable, are practical to use for controlling external devices, are vastly more ergonomic, support multiple optical drives, are far, far less fail, are practical for use in a RAID system, are harder to steal and essentially impossible to lose, stand up better to prolonged use...

Should I continue?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nrc said:


> Nah, I give them the benefit of a doubt and assume that many of those who have one really don't want another.


Unfortunately I am stuck with quite a few. I don't want any at all.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Linux would have been my next guess. You're still somewhat restricted by hardware and software choices


Not so much, really. Almost every Windows app has one or more Linux analogs. Many have ports for both. Most Windows apps will run directly under wine or dosbox. There are a few - very few - exceptions. Unfortunately VideoRedo is one. Some people have reportedly gotten it to run under wine, but I haven't. I have experienced far more intractable hardware problems with Windows (especially XP and Windows 7) than with Linux.



mr.unnatural said:


> unless you know how to write your own drivers.


I'm about a hair's breadth from being inclined to say no one who can't write a driver should be allowed anywhere near a PC. It would surely make my life a hell of a lot easier and less stressful. OTOH, one of the great beauties of Linux is the developers are almost all easily accessible, so one does not need to know how to write a program or driver one's self. With a Mac or Windows, if I have a problem I cannot fix myself, my only recourse is to either abandon the project or else wait forever on hold on the phone so I can pay a huge amount of money to speak to some flunky who knows less about the PC than my dog... and then abandon the project. If I have a problem with a Linux app, I either submit a bug report using reportbug, or fire off an email to the mail list, or else fire off an email to the primary developer.



mr.unnatural said:


> Still, it's a bit more flexible in some ways than the Mac OS.


And both are obscenely rigid compared to Linux. IMO - and this time I am not kidding - I think it should be illegal to distribute any software that is not open source.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

tootal2 said:


> Gamers do not use macs!


I think that is perhaps the best advertisement I have ever heard for purchasing a Mac.



tootal2 said:


> I used redhat fedroa linux for about a year


Hmm, yeah. I don't really care much for Fedora, although all things considered I prefer it to Ubuntu. I've never found anything I prefer overall to Debian.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> So exactly how much guide data do you need?


Up to a point, the more the better. It means having to mess with managing recording that much less frequently. With 12 days of data, I only have to deal with recording management once every 10 days or so. If I had access to a month's worth, I would only need to browse the data once a month, and the fact is the data for a month is only a little bit more voluminous to the user than that for 12 days.



mr.unnatural said:


> While it's nice to be able to set up recordings days or even weeks in advance


Or years, but that doesn't require guide data. Quite a fair percentage of the programs my TiVos record were set up years ago.



mr.unnatural said:


> as long as the guide data is present on the day a program airs, season passes will pick them up and record them automatically.


What is it with you and season passes? I only have a handful, and some of those are defunct. If the season pass capability were to be eliminated, I would only be very mildly annoyed, and hardly inconvenienced at all.



mr.unnatural said:


> My point was that I never missed a recording due to lack of guide data.


Well, me, either.



mr.unnatural said:


> I only record single shows on an occasional basis and have season passes set up for 99% of my recordings.


Fewer than 5% of the shows recorded by my TiVos are even eligible for a season pass, and most of those are recorded via Suggestions, not a Season Pass.



mr.unnatural said:


> HTPCs are a hobby, not an appliance.


So is a TiVo, if one wishes to make full use of it, albeit a transient one once one has the TiVo set up.



mr.unnatural said:


> If you want a security blanket, get a Tivo. If you like to tinker and enjoy the satisfaction of building something yourself


You didn't build it, you just assembled it. 'Not that there is something amiss in being satisfied at assembling something, but it is not the same as building it.



mr.unnatural said:


> It's up to the individual to decide what's important to them.


Yes, and what is important to me is not supporting the @#%@%^^^% in Redmond, or bending over for the #$^#$^^& in Hollywood, or promoting closed source programming, or going to the trouble to build a video library only to have it evaporate when - not if, WHEN - a card fails or a re-install of the OS becomes necessary.


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