# Customers miffed over DirecTV with TiVo problems



## moonman (Jul 21, 2004)

Customers of DirecTV with TiVo have been blanketing the satellite provider's online user forums with complaints of a malfunction in the DVR service.

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Read full article here........ http://news.com.com/Customers+miffe...blems/2100-1038_3-6150142.html?tag=html.alert


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Fyi..

In that article... is DirecTv's statement, regarding the issue with the TiVo.

I just posted this in the reboot thread.

TiVo/DirecTV has identified the issue.
They have identified a work-around, to avoid the problem.

Until an appropriate solution can be complete (which could lead to software downloads).


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Fyi..
> 
> In that article... is DirecTv's statement, regarding the issue with the TiVo.
> 
> ...


Please provide a link to the "reboot thread".


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## Cheezmo (Apr 26, 2004)

FWIW, the "logs filling up with error messages" problem appears to have stopped today. That was likely the cause of many a reboot.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I love Mr Anonymous user from Wilmington threatening to leave. Ooohhh better protect my identity. Stand up and put your name on it if you're going to say it.

Anyway, a garbage piece that didn't even talk about the problem or the solution.

It's sad that it's taken TiVo this long to come up with a fix for their silly handling of the log file. I think TiVo's turn around time in development and patches was a contributing item to DTV dropping them. TiVo is good, but slow to produce any developments or fixes.


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## BigHat (Jan 25, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> It's sad that it's taken TiVo this long to come up with a fix for their silly handling of the log file. I think TiVo's turn around time in development and patches was a contributing item to DTV dropping them. TiVo is good, but slow to produce any developments or fixes.


More likely, having been dropped by DTV isn't making fixing DTV equipment a priority.

Bottom line is I want TIVO more than I want DTV and will make that move if and when I'm forced to do so. Only unique feature is the NFL. If they ever break that monopoly the customers will flee.


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## ShiningBengal (Mar 19, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I love Mr Anonymous user from Wilmington threatening to leave. Ooohhh better protect my identity. Stand up and put your name on it if you're going to say it.
> 
> Anyway, a garbage piece that didn't even talk about the problem or the solution.
> 
> It's sad that it's taken TiVo this long to come up with a fix for their silly handling of the log file. I think TiVo's turn around time in development and patches was a contributing item to DTV dropping them. TiVo is good, but slow to produce any developments or fixes.


TiVo licensing fees plus the fact that News Corporation had their own home brew DVR were the reasons DirecTV decided not to continue their relationship with TiVo when their contract expires in a few years. Had nothing at all to do with TiVo's lack of development.

Why would TiVo spend more than they had to do in fulfilling their contract obligations to DirecTV once DirecTV made it known that TiVo would soon be history with them? That would seem to be pretty stupid. TiVo has other fish to fry now. Their decision to drop TiVo preceded any issues with their software.


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## Dirac (Oct 18, 2002)

BigHat said:


> More likely, having been dropped by DTV isn't making fixing DTV equipment a priority.
> 
> Bottom line is I want TIVO more than I want DTV and will make that move if and when I'm forced to do so. Only unique feature is the NFL. If they ever break that monopoly the customers will flee.


Quick question... do any cable companies offer all the RSNs in something like a Sports Pak? I know this is useless to a lot of people (except college hockey fans) but this is the reason I stay with DirecTV, in addition to SD and HD DNS, which probably won't last forever.


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## hhh222 (Jul 28, 2005)

BigHat, I'm with you. Where TIVO is is where I'll be.


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## Bitz69 (Jul 29, 2000)

Billy66 said:


> I love Mr Anonymous user from Wilmington threatening to leave. Ooohhh better protect my identity. Stand up and put your name on it if you're going to say it.
> 
> Anyway, a garbage piece that didn't even talk about the problem or the solution.
> 
> It's sad that it's taken TiVo this long to come up with a fix for their silly handling of the log file. I think TiVo's turn around time in development and patches was a contributing item to DTV dropping them. TiVo is good, but slow to produce any developments or fixes.


Developments? what are the standalones on, Ver 8 or so, Tivo isn't/wasn't the ones holding back the Dtivo's, it's Directv. Should they have fixed it be now, probally but I cant imagine they are going to put a ton of resources into it, DirectV isn't even selling Directivo's anymore.

FYI: My HR10-250 is running almost flawless, I Zippered 3.1 , used Slicer to get to 6.3a and then copied the 1 file over to fix the audio problems.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

A J Ricaud said:


> Please provide a link to the "reboot thread".


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336122


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Sounds like we're all in agreement BigHat, Shinning, and Bitz. TiVo is slowing it down and there is no motivation for them to pick up the pace.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Billy66 said:


> It's sad that it's taken TiVo this long to come up with a fix for their silly handling of the log file. I think TiVo's turn around time in development and patches was a contributing item to DTV dropping them. TiVo is good, but slow to produce any developments or fixes.


You're making stuff up. You don' t know anything about how long it takes Tivo to solve problems vs how long it takes DirecTV to test and deploy them.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I've experienced practically every DVR either company has ever made and experienced the software development cycle since 1.21. Nothing scientific that's for sure. You've been here too, would you characterize TiVo's upgrades as fast? I've always considered them to be larger more thorough updates. That's my experience.

What's yours?


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Billy66 said:


> I've experienced practically every DVR either company has ever made and experienced the software development cycle since 1.21. Nothing scientific that's for sure. You've been here too, would you characterize TiVo's upgrades as fast? I've always considered them to be larger more thorough updates. That's my experience.
> 
> What's yours?


My experience is that TiVo's updates come when DirecTV chooses to deliver them. We have no visibility into the process. DirecTV requests an update, TiVo creates it, DirecTV tests and deploys it. Give me the timeline for each update with those milestones and whether the target dates were met and then I'll make a judgement on whether TiVo's turn around time for development and patches is poor.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I think I hear what you're saying. I think I'm looking at TiVo in a more macro way across all of the platforms. I don't know that the way TiVo develops was part of DTV's decision or not. It's conjecture just as those that might suggest it's over the $1/sub/month.

None of us know anything.

In any case, I only intended to say that TiVo is more measured and thus slow to patch things. I thought the same thing for the dead battery patch that took 3 months to deliver in early 2000 (because they simply rolled it into a bigger release) and I think the same thing about this.

I don't know why DTV didn't want TiVo. I'm sure there are more reasons than the one's we're imagining.


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

> I don't know why DTV didn't want TiVo. I'm sure there are more reasons than the one's we're imagining.


I know exactly why DTV doesn't want TiVo. They have to pay TiVo something like $1.60 a month for each TiVo system installed. DTV wants to keep all that money. I wonder how many DirecTV customers that want TiVo they can lose at $70 to $100 a month before they lose money overall.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bpratt said:


> I know exactly why DTV doesn't want TiVo. They have to pay TiVo something like $1.60 a month for each TiVo system installed. DTV wants to keep all that money. I wonder how many DirecTV customers that want TiVo they can lose at $70 to $100 a month before they lose money overall.


After Malone takes over DirecTV in mid-2007, does anyone know if DirecTV will have to pay NDS a licensing fee for each DVR?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

bpratt said:


> I know exactly why DTV doesn't want TiVo. They have to pay TiVo something like $1.60 a month for each TiVo system installed. DTV wants to keep all that money. I wonder how many DirecTV customers that want TiVo they can lose at $70 to $100 a month before they lose money overall.


That makes sense until you factor in the cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR.

DirecTv brought more customers to TiVo than anyone. The people were there for the content and then fell in love with the TiVo. The complaining now instead of switching to a series 3 is indicative that leaving the content is tough even when you feel the DVR solution is preferred. They won't lose an enormous amount of customers over this. It will be the tipping point for some most assuredly.


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## bpratt (Nov 20, 2004)

> That makes sense until you factor in the cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR.


Trausch in this post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336236 said there are 2 million HR10-250s installed. If thats true, then D* would be paying TiVo over 3 million per month or 36 million per year just for the HD TiVos. How much can it cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR?


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

bpratt said:


> Trausch in this post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336236 said there are 2 million HR10-250s installed. If thats true, then D* would be paying TiVo over 3 million per month or 36 million per year just for the HD TiVos. How much can it cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR?


2 million sounds high for just HR10-250s, but I could see that number including all DirecTivos SD and HD.

-h


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

There are numbers out there, the ones I recall are less than 1 million subs overall. There is something official out there though. There is no way 2 million HR10-250's.

In any case, it must cost plenty because TiVo service is like $19/mo and developing and supporting a DVR is all they do.


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## dscott72 (Mar 30, 2006)

I know this might sound archaic. But it might be a thought to hasten back to the days before email and have a 'good ole fashioned' write in campaign by those who are in favor of the new management dropping the HR20 that Rupert Murdoch is getting kick backs from and re-negotiating with Tivo to come out with a MPEG4 HDTivo. I know I for one would be willing do so, not to mention willing to pay a few bucks extra month (per unit if necessary) to keep DirecTv/Tivo.

If there are those that are willing I can start working on a generic form letter that everyone can use.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Billy66 said:


> That makes sense until you factor in the cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR.
> 
> DirecTv brought more customers to TiVo than anyone. The people were there for the content and then fell in love with the TiVo. The complaining now instead of switching to a series 3 is indicative that leaving the content is tough even when you feel the DVR solution is preferred. They won't lose an enormous amount of customers over this. It will be the tipping point for some most assuredly.


 Please explain to me the difference in content between DTV, or DISH, or cable.

I'll give you Sunday Ticket, and that's a big one. But other than that, the broadcasted content and the digital signal would all be roughly equal, right? I've been reading that DTV's HD is subpar to cable, which in turn is subpar to OTA (without the content), but I'm not splitting hairs over that. It's certainly not like the days of the mid 90's when DTV's digital signal was just clearly, amazingly, better than cable's. That's why I went with DTV back then.

But today, the digital signal has become the commodity, with the only difference in carrier being bandwidth and compression. And I think aside from Sunday Ticket, content is a wash as well.

The reason many DTV customers are angry is because the DVR is not a commodity, and they are having to change service providers (which can be a hassle - buy a standalone TiVo with service, start cable service and they might have bad memories of cable, and perhaps get out of a service committment with DTV).

Honestly, I'm not angry with DTV anymore. I'm no longer a customer. I went through the hassle to maintain what I consider to be the main factor in my enjoyment of TV. And that's TiVo. DTV had no hold over me with content or signal. Just the hold of inconvenience.

Truly, if all DVRs were equal, and they were a commodity, where is all this discussion coming from?


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

harley3k said:


> 2 million sounds high for just HR10-250s, but I could see that number including all DirecTivos SD and HD.
> 
> -h


 Per TiVo SEC filings I have seen in the past:

4.4 million total TiVo users, of which 2.7 million are DTV/TiVo users.

I have not seen it broken down between series 1 or series 2 SD units and the HR10-250 units.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

dscott72 said:


> I know this might sound archaic. But it might be a thought to hasten back to the days before email and have a 'good ole fashioned' write in campaign by those who are in favor of the new management dropping the HR20 that Rupert Murdoch is getting kick backs from and re-negotiating with Tivo to come out with a MPEG4 HDTivo. I know I for one would be willing do so, not to mention willing to pay a few bucks extra month (per unit if necessary) to keep DirecTv/Tivo.
> 
> If there are those that are willing I can start working on a generic form letter that everyone can use.


 Unfortunately, nothing speaks louder to any of these companies than churn rates. That's really the only thing that they will pay attention to.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Considering D* is not buying Tivo's going forward I am sure D* is on the bottom of the priority list with Tivo. Companies like Comcast will get the attention and their best developers since they are looking to be with Tivo in the future.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

gquiring said:


> Considering D* is not buying Tivo's going forward I am sure D* is on the bottom of the priority list with Tivo. Companies like Comcast will get the attention and their best developers since they are looking to be with Tivo in the future.


If that is the case... then you should Consider that is has "YOU" the DirecTivo customer also at the bottom of "their" list.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> If that is the case... then you should Consider that is has "YOU" the DirecTivo customer also at the bottom of "their" list.


I don't think that is exactly true, though I may be missing your exact meaning. The folks who bought the HR10, especially the early adopters who dropped $1K on them, are generally exactly the high-value customers that D* wants to retain. This is also true to some extent of those who bought the early SD units at full price. If a significant number of them leave, it will have impact on their bottom line. (Not to mention that they are often "opinion leaders" with other less tech savvy friends and family.)

I think that the high-value, early adopter types are the customers that D* has at the top of their list, and that they will do all they can to ensure that the HR20 becomes an attractive option for them. If they are unable to do so it will be at their peril.

There are some who won't consider anything but a Tivo, of course. That's the S3 market, especially at current prices. There are plenty of others who are willing to consider alternatives from D* (and other providers) -- to the extent that D* is souring them on their service due to recent events and their response to them, it's not good for D*.

_EDIT - looking at Earl's post again, I think that I did misread it...he meant we're at the bottom of Tivo's list, not DirecTV's. As Emily Littella would say..."never mind!"_


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> I don't think that is exactly true, though I may be missing your exact meaning.


Earl was commenting on TiVo Inc., suggesting that if gquiring felt that TiVo Inc. was going to give higher priority to Comcast, at the expense of DirecTV, then this would mean TiVo Inc. was placing DirecTiVo customers at the bottom of "their" list. ("Their" being TiVo Inc.)


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Earl was commenting on TiVo Inc., suggesting that if gquiring felt that TiVo Inc. was going to give higher priority to Comcast, at the expense of DirecTV, then this would mean TiVo Inc. was placing DirecTiVo customers at the bottom of "their" list. ("Their" being TiVo Inc.)


Yes, I've edited my post/rant to reflect my error in reading comprehension.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> If that is the case... then you should Consider that is has "YOU" the DirecTivo customer also at the bottom of "their" list.


Why play coy with this? DirecTV still controls what software gets loaded to our TiVos and when. Do you have any information that suggests that TiVo is failing to devote sufficient attention to DirecTV to meet their timelines?

Are you, someone who has information from within DirecTV, implying that TiVo is neglecting their DirecTV customers?


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## Mark Lopez (Jan 1, 2000)

bpratt said:


> I wonder how many DirecTV customers that want TiVo they can lose at $70 to $100 a month before they lose money overall.


    These statements always crack me up.

For every Tivo lemming that jumps ship, at least ten others will jump on the DirecTv DVR. They won't be loosing any sleep over anyone leaving just becuse they can't have Tivo.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> Why play coy with this? DirecTV still controls what software gets loaded to our TiVos and when. Do you have any information that suggests that TiVo is failing to devote sufficient attention to DirecTV to meet their timelines?
> 
> Are you, someone who has information from within DirecTV, implying that TiVo is neglecting their DirecTV customers?


No, I don't have any information on what is actually going on there, with a new version.

I was responding to the others poster's, thining that TiVo is going to be more focused on their units, the comcast, and have the DirecTV ones at the bottom.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

20TIL6 said:


> Unfortunately, nothing speaks louder to any of these companies than churn rates. That's really the only thing that they will pay attention to.


Which is why I cancelled my D* service. Its the best I can do.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

btwyx said:


> Which is why I cancelled my D* service. Its the best I can do.


+1... in fact, I just called DTV to move my cancelation up to tomorrow since cable came and installed me the same day I called in. The retention guy was cutting deal after deal to try to get me to stay. I finally said "When can you come upgrade me if I decide to stay?" His answer "Well, our first appointment is Feb 19th".. umm.. okay.. I can't complain about the pricing and the retention guy commented that they had had "a lot of cancelations because of the latest Tivo issues".. Id have stayed if the upgrade time was something more reasonable, like less than a week.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

Mark Lopez said:


> These statements always crack me up.
> 
> For every Tivo lemming that jumps ship, at least ten others will jump on the DirecTv DVR. They won't be loosing any sleep over anyone leaving just becuse they can't have Tivo.


 Assuming your comment implies no growth from new DVR customers...which you might be factoring.

But 1/11, or 9.1% of any particular customer base (early DVR adopters, I think being an important one) is a churn rate that would catch the eye of management. 9.1% of 2.7 million subscribers is roughly 246,000 customers that would be cancelling DTV services. TiVo lemmings, as you call them.

It would be interesting to review DTV's quarterly filings to see how long it takes them to add a quarter of a million subscribers. Would they recover that amount in a month, a quarter, multiple quarters? Then I think it would be clear if anyone is losing sleep.


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## TivoJunkie43 (Mar 9, 2006)

20TIL6 said:


> It would be interesting to review DTV's quarterly filings to see how long it takes them to add a quarter of a million subscribers. Would they recover that amount in a month, a quarter, multiple quarters? Then I think it would be clear if anyone is losing sleep.


Growth Est DTV Industry Sector S&P 500 
Current Qtr. 233.3% 
Next Qtr. 76.5% 
This Year 395.5% 
Next Year 22.9% 
Past 5 Years (per annum) N/A N/A N/A N/A 
Next 5 Years (per annum) 16.0%

To me this looks like a company which has bitten off a little more than it can chew. Nearly 400% growth projected for this year... their stock is up, but was recently downgraded by bank of america. I wouldn't be surprised if the above figures just haven't been updated since they dumped Tivo, but i don't know...

In my opinion the most likely reasons' for letting Tivo go is that they figure they have enough on their plate without it, and they didn't want to take any more heat in the press about their poor customer service... or perhaps Tivo just couldn't address the problems fast enough, in order to keep up with DTV's growth.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

20TIL6 said:


> Assuming your comment implies no growth from new DVR customers...which you might be factoring.
> 
> But 1/11, or 9.1% of any particular customer base (early DVR adopters, I think being an important one) is a churn rate that would catch the eye of management. 9.1% of 2.7 million subscribers is roughly 246,000 customers that would be cancelling DTV services. TiVo lemmings, as you call them.
> 
> It would be interesting to review DTV's quarterly filings to see how long it takes them to add a quarter of a million subscribers. Would they recover that amount in a month, a quarter, multiple quarters? Then I think it would be clear if anyone is losing sleep.


Agreed, but most aren't leaving. They're just complaining. Valid complaints which may eventually lead to a split, but complaints none the less.

The poster above was leaving due to TiVo, yet would have stayed if they could have moved an appointment for him. Not the strongest of convictions I'd say.


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## TivoJunkie43 (Mar 9, 2006)

This is somewhat unrelated - except that Tivo's in the news again - it was announced yesterday, that Tivo and others are being sued by Lycos over patent infringement?

They basically claim that Tivo's method of keeping track of peoples viewing habits as a means of providing them with user-specific (desirable) content is violating a patent that Lycos apparently holds.

When I pull up "Tivo suggestions", or turn on Tivo suggestions to record (in menu) I don't find this method to be very accurate anyhow, but I'm interested to hear what others think about it.

[/LINK] http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/070114/24119_id.html?.v=1[/LINK]


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

TivoJunkie43 said:


> This is somewhat unrelated - except that Tivo's in the news again - it was announced yesterday, that Tivo and others are being sued by Lycos over patent infringement?


Check out this thread in the Coffee House for TCF discussion: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336154


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## TivoJunkie43 (Mar 9, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Check out this thread in the Coffee House for TCF discussion: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=336154


Thanks for that! Don't know how I missed it.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

20TIL6 said:


> Assuming your comment implies no growth from new DVR customers...which you might be factoring.
> 
> But 1/11, or 9.1% of any particular customer base (early DVR adopters, I think being an important one) is a churn rate that would catch the eye of management. 9.1% of 2.7 million subscribers is roughly 246,000 customers that would be cancelling DTV services. TiVo lemmings, as you call them.


Last quarter DirecTV added 1 million gross subscribers but only had a net gain of 165,000. 246,000 would have a huge impact in one quarter. But they won't all go at once. It will happen over two years or so and that may be long enough to keep it from being obvious on their churn numbers if they can keep other factors under control.

This is why DirecTV won't force a change-out. The impact on churn and/or retention expense would be brutal.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

20TIL6 said:


> Please explain to me the difference in content between DTV, or DISH, or cable.


From the channel list, they are all more or less the same. When you get into premium channels, then things start to break out a bit -- DTV has only 3 cinemax channels, while cable and DISH carry more... If you look at HD, DISH wins - period. Cable varies by provider, however DTV is always at the bottom of the pile.

If you look at the actual picture, cable is simply ass (around here.) Even their "digital" is nothing more than them digitizing the same "ass" at the headend. That's why I never signed up for cable many (12) years ago post college -- I'm not going to _pay_ for stuff that looks that bad. I went with DTV _because of the DTivo_; otherwise, I'd've stayed with broadcast TV. If it had been a DISH Tivo, then I'd be a DISH customer today. For SD channels, DISH and DTV are pretty much indistinguishable. For HD however, DISH is unquestionably better.



Billy66 said:


> DirecTv brought more customers to TiVo than anyone. The people were there for the content and then fell in love with the TiVo.


That's true, but the reverse is also true: Tivo brought a lot of people to DTV. When those 2.7mil tivo users are forced to use the crappy, non-tivo, DTV homogenized DVR, they will not like it. Even if they've fixed the annoying bugs. If you've used a tivo for long, nothing else compares.

That's not to downplay the value of content. Tivo's biggest problem has always been with content. Broadcast TV is very limitting. And the "movie channels" are scrambled requiring a box + ir blaster (*cough*HACK*cough*.) There's no way Tivo, Inc. could have gotten into the cable descrambler business -- there's too many systems, and no cableco would willingly work with them -- there's plenty of resistance to *legally mandated* cableCARD(tm) support. So Tivo, Inc. did the best they could... STB's for satellite TV. Personally, I think they should've struck a deal with both DISH and DTV. (it's hard to make a deal with 2 devils.) Now we're in the world of digital tv with an FCC mandate opening the cable STB market... however, that doesn't automatically make the S3 an improvement over the DTivo.

I will not be a bit surprised if DTV loses over 1mil subscribers to DISH and cable with their abandonment of Tivo. It's already costing them (very long standing) customers. All because of their almighty greed... god forbid should they give $1.60 of the $5.99 DVR fee to Tivo; that's 1-2% of the typical monthly bill. Instead of paying tivo 20$/yr, they'd rather lose ~1k$/yr customers.

As much as I _loath_ TW, when DTV stops transmitting to my DTivos, then _I'm gone!_ (and TW will get my $1k+/yr.) I'm not the only one who feels that way.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

20TIL6 said:


> Assuming your comment implies no growth from new DVR customers...which you might be factoring.
> 
> But 1/11, or 9.1% of any particular customer base (early DVR adopters, I think being an important one) is a churn rate that would catch the eye of management. 9.1% of 2.7 million subscribers is roughly 246,000 customers that would be cancelling DTV services. TiVo lemmings, as you call them.
> 
> It would be interesting to review DTV's quarterly filings to see how long it takes them to add a quarter of a million subscribers. Would they recover that amount in a month, a quarter, multiple quarters? Then I think it would be clear if anyone is losing sleep.


Maybe my math is wrong, but if say 100,000 people leave D* because they don't like their Tivo offerings, and those users on average paid D* $70 in fees, than that's $7 million a month.

If you take D*'s total DVR users, and say they are paying Tivo $1.50 a month each, that's $3-4 million a month.

Add that to the fact, that nobody will speficially come to D* because of a non-tivo DVR, then they better not be losing tons of people because of no Tivo, because it will hit their bottom line.

Add the fact that there is documentation that Tivo limits churn, but no documentation that a plain DVR does the same.

Then add the fallacies of the R15 and HR20, and i wouldn't be laughing that much 

-smak-


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't believe there is any proof that Tivo brought significant numbers of subscribers to Directv. If Directv believed they did, they would not have dropped them. Certainly Directv of all people would know if they did or not. 

During the time Directv was deploying Tivo they distributed almost 3 million DirecTivo's. The vast majority of those 3 million subscribers had never had a DVR before much less a Tivo. So why would anyone come to the conclusion that having Tivo generated huge numbers of new subscribers for Directv?

Even if dropping Tivo caused a large number of subscribers to defect, no one would ever know it because the defection would take place over a multi year period. As long as the existing DirecTivo's are still working there is no reason for customers to go elsewhere yet.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

gquiring said:


> Considering D* is not buying Tivo's going forward I am sure D* is on the bottom of the priority list with Tivo. Companies like Comcast will get the attention and their best developers since they are looking to be with Tivo in the future.


Yep, just because DTV is no longer owned by NEWS and consequently no longer in bed with NDS and their sucky DVR, there's no reason to try to impress DTV and convince them they'd be better off going back to TiVo. Yep.


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## carinstaller (Jan 4, 2007)

It would be bad business for TiVo or D* to not get this problem worked out. If they don't work this out together it could hurt both of them. We techie types know it's probably D*'s fault changing something in the data stream. The average customer thinks it's TiVo's fault or both. Some might blame D*. Ether way they both look bad and I'm sure they both know that.

D* is shooting them self's in the foot "Upgrading?" people to their DVR. [They tried that with us] Most people never could manage to program a VCR. They could program a TiVo. How many are now tied to a commitment now and can't get it to work. I'm glad I don't work at D*'s call center!


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't believe there is any proof that Tivo brought significant numbers of subscribers to Directv. If Directv believed they did, they would not have dropped them. Certainly Directv of all people would know if they did or not.


Not necessarily so. Corporate hubris in believing that they could develop a better DVR in-house could easily lead to the decision. Whether they will ultimately be able to pull it off remains to be seen.

Not to say that I believe at all that people will leave D* in droves due to dropping Tivo, though some certainly will.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

carinstaller said:


> I'm glad I don't work at D*'s call center!


Unless you get paid per call.

phox


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't believe there is any proof that Tivo brought significant numbers of subscribers to Directv. If Directv believed they did, they would not have dropped them. Certainly Directv of all people would know if they did or not.


Not necessarily so. Corporate hubris in believing that they could develop a better DVR in-house could easily lead to the decision. Whether they will ultimately be able to pull it off remains to be seen.

Not to say that I believe that people will leave D* in droves due to dropping Tivo, though some certainly will (especially many of the types that hang out here at TCF).

For most people, content/price are more primary. A DVR that performs its functions well will be enough for them. To me, the HR20 and R15 don't do that...but many folks seem to have few problems, or are willing to live with glitches that drive me mad.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't believe there is any proof that Tivo brought significant numbers of subscribers to Directv.


I'll just offer that I only became a DirecTV customer because of TiVo ... In March 2003 I was looking to buy a TiVo, and didn't even know there were such things as integrated DirecTiVo boxes.

After wandering through Best Buy, I saw a two-room installation offer for new customers (an HR10 plus an RCA basic receiver), and it was only $99, a LOT cheaper than an SA TiVo at that time. I went home, started researching, and decided that if I wanted a TiVo, it would be cheaper to drop my premium cable package and get the Best Buy offer. I did it the next day, and have been a very happy DirecTV customer ever since. (Well, OK, not *always* happy - like when they dropped certain channels on Sunday to devote bandwidth to NFLST - but that's a different thread!)

What will I do when my HR10's die, or when I have no choice but to use HR20 DVRs? I don't know ... I'll look at what offers Cablevision has at that time, consider the price of the S3 and cablecards, and see what happens. I won't say I will drop DirecTV just because they DON'T have TiVo, but dropping TiVo certainly makes it EASIER to walk away ...


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

I had DishNetwork from just about the time they came on the scene.

Got their DVR when I heard about it, and it was the best thing since sliced bread.

Then I got a standalone TiVo.  What a piece of crap that Dish 501 was.
(compared to the TiVo, it was pretty slick compared to a VCR)

Then I heard DirecTV had dual tuner DVR's with TiVo.
Dropped DishNetwork like a hot rock.

I've been more than happy with DirecTV till the last few months.

Can't afford to replace my DirecTV DVR's with S3's, so I'll be sticking around for a while, dealing with the recent problems as best I can.

Maybe Comcast will get the TiVo powered DVR's in these parts,
and have the bugs worked out, by the time I can afford to drop D*.


phox


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## bjstewa (Nov 25, 2006)

bpratt said:


> I know exactly why DTV doesn't want TiVo. They have to pay TiVo something like $1.60 a month for each TiVo system installed. DTV wants to keep all that money. I wonder how many DirecTV customers that want TiVo they can lose at $70 to $100 a month before they lose money overall.


This is just my theory, but I think that the fees being paid to Tivo may be secondary to the value of the information that can gleaned from the DVRs. I think that there may be huge $$ in the data collected on viewers habits.

DVRs can be capable of collecting the same type information that Nielson Research does. There is a LOT of power and money in that info.

Just my $0.02.

bjs


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## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

bjstewa said:


> This is just my theory, but I think that the fees being paid to Tivo may be secondary to the value of the information that can gleaned from the DVRs. I think that there may be huge $$ in the data collected on viewers habits.
> 
> DVRs can be capable of collecting the same type information that Nielson Research does. There is a LOT of power and money in that info.
> 
> ...


I've always suspected there was more than just avoiding the fee. DirecTiVo's fee was $5 ( now $6 ) a month for all units vs something much higher for a standalone from TiVo. If DirecTV wanted to charge $2 for the "premium" TiVo DVR I'd pay it, especially if it meant that functionality hadn't stagnated since 2003.

When DirecTV took over the TiVos including the billing the monthly fee dropped and the single fee applied to all your DirecTiVos. At that time it didn't seem like they were worried about just under $2 a month from those subscribers.

Last month I couldn't get Fox Movie Channel, it had been moved to the "Plus" tier so poof, one day my bill went up if I wanted that channel. My bill went up $3 a month I think. They could just have easily done that to all users of DirecTivos vs the home grown ones.

So I think there was more to it than saving TiVo licensing fees.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

bpratt said:


> I know exactly why DTV doesn't want TiVo. They have to pay TiVo something like $1.60 a month for each TiVo system installed.


No. $0.89 per month according to the latest TiVo Quarterly Report.


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## Tburt (Nov 29, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> ....Even if dropping Tivo caused a large number of subscribers to defect, no one would ever know it because the defection would take place over a multi year period. As long as the existing DirecTivo's are still working there is no reason for customers to go elsewhere yet.


Plus the built in anti-churn multi-year "commitment" if you sneeze hides the churning. I will break ranks if either of my DTivos starts having the problems people are reporting. So far so good, I have been lucky with no rebooting or missing SPs.


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## primetime73 (Oct 11, 2005)

One of my HR10's just had a hard drive failure so I called D* to see what could be done. They said they would 2nd day air a new HD DVR to me for $19.95. I asked which one, and he said the same as I already have installed. 

I was fine with that and almost called back to request an HR20-700 so I could compare knowing that eventually I will want the MPEG4 compatibility but decided not to rock the boat already in motion.

Well two days later I came home to a HR20 on my doorstep. I hooked it up and I gotta say the user interface was easy to figure out and frankly I don't think I will miss the Tivo that much. My fiance tried it out and said she understood it and could work it. 

Reliability you say? It probably isn't any worse than my Tivo with the audio dropouts, missed recordings, and reboots. In fact while my fiance was watching the other HR10 downstairs as I was installing the HR20 she started screaming because it rebooted in the middle of her show. Now I know the Tivo zealots will blame D* for the Tivo audio and reboots but the box says Tivo on it and the UI says Tivo all over it so who do you think most non Tivo Community Forum people will blame? And one can argue that since D* dropped Tivo that Tivo put D* on the bottom of the list for software fixes but remember that box and UI still say Tivo so if it doesn't work Tivo shares in the blame and ruins their own brand image just as much if not more than D*. Just like if my Pioneer DVD player has a bad picture or doesn't work it isn't the fault of my Sony TV, I just get a new DVD player. Just like the DVD player the Tivo is just a box hooked to my big TV and satellite dish on the roof.

The HR20 has easy to figure out interface, caller ID, disk space remaining bar, and MPEG4 capability. Tivo has dual tuners as its one advantage otherwise I don't care about suggestions, etc.

Basically, I don't see the Tivo product as anything to change providers over and other than a few vocal Tivoites (is that a word?) most people won't change or don't have better content provider alternatives. My local cable company is utterly worthless and expensive so contratry to one opinion above, D* is not always at the bottom of HD offerings, Charter is worse. I have not had Echo* but every person who I personally know that has them hates them and wants to switch plus their HD offerings don't inspire me since Voom has zero appeal. I can wait for D* to add capacity since I am not missing much right now. 

I think D* will be fine with the switch because I believe the DVR is a, or is rapidly becoming a, commodity business. If Tivo is/was so great why did the addition of Tivo subs rely so heavily on D*? I wouldn't touch Tivo's stock with a 10 foot pole knowing the every set top box maker, cable co., etc. wants to throw a DVR at you and most people don't know or care about the brand name on the box because it is just a glorified VCR. 

D*'s biggest problem is going to be bandwith as VOD becomes more popular and things like IPTV, FiOs, etc. become more viable.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

primetime73 said:


> ...Reliability you say? It probably isn't any worse than my Tivo with the audio dropouts, missed recordings, and reboots. In fact while my fiance was watching the other HR10 downstairs as I was installing the HR20 she started screaming because it rebooted in the middle of her show...


Almost sounds like you are comparing an HR10 DirecTiVo on its worst day to an HR20 on its best day, and they come out almost equal.

The current problems with DirecTiVo's, caused by insufficient regression testing by DirecTV and TiVo, will be fixed soon. Then another comparison might be in order.


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

primetime73 said:


> One of my HR10's just had a hard drive failure so I called D* to see what could be done. They said they would 2nd day air a new HD DVR to me for $19.95. I asked which one, and he said the same as I already have installed.
> 
> I was fine with that and almost called back to request an HR20-700 so I could compare knowing that eventually I will want the MPEG4 compatibility but decided not to rock the boat already in motion.
> 
> ...


IIRC, this is called whistling through the graveyard.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Budget_HT said:


> Almost sounds like you are comparing an HR10 DirecTiVo on its worst day to an HR20 on its best day, and they come out almost equal.
> 
> The current problems with DirecTiVo's, caused by insufficient regression testing by DirecTV and TiVo, will be fixed soon. Then another comparison might be in order.


Nope, he's comparing the HR10 2 years into it's run with the HR20 4 months in.

A comparison of your own might also be in order. It's the only way to gain real experience.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Nope, he's comparing the HR10 2 years into it's run with the HR20 4 months in.


The HR10 4 months in was far more bulletproof in operation than the HR20. I own both units. The HR20 has some features (besides MPEG4 compatibility) that the Tivo lacks, to be sure. It lacks others that I use frequently on the Tivo (dual buffers, rich wishlist capability). More importantly, it is not reliable enough at this point to serve as my main DVR.

DirecTV made the choice to change DVRs, so I am not inclined to be particularly generous in allowing for "it's new" as an excuse.


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## PhilipDC (Jun 23, 2005)

Gotta agree with primetime. I've had the 10-250 since very early on and recently added a HR-20. Except for the dual buffer issue (which DOES drive me crazy), there isn't as big a difference as some people would have you believe.


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## ike (Feb 26, 2002)

bwaldron said:


> The HR10 4 months in was far more bulletproof in operation than the HR20.


That's exactly why living with the HR10 TODAY is so particularly annoying. Sofware shoudl get MORE stable with subsequent releases, not LESS. The new features that they've rolled out aren't earth-shattering, complex new technology. They (whoever that is exactly) have not done a good job of testing the latest software releases.

It's too bad there isn't a simple, non-hacked way to go back to the pre-6.3 release.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

ike said:


> That's exactly why living with the HR10 TODAY is so particularly annoying. Sofware shoudl get MORE stable with subsequent releases, not LESS. The new features that they've rolled out aren't earth-shattering, complex new technology. They (whoever that is exactly) have not done a good job of testing the latest software releases.
> 
> It's too bad there isn't a simple, non-hacked way to go back to the pre-6.3 release.


Can't argue with that. I reverted to 3.1.5f after experiencing OTA dropouts with 6.3a. I've been lucky, running 6.3b for weeks now w/ no problems save for the guide data/SP issues that seem resolved (knock on wood).

Testing of 6.3 was obviously shoddy.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> The HR10 4 months in was far more bulletproof in operation than the HR20. I own both units. The HR20 has some features (besides MPEG4 compatibility) that the Tivo lacks, to be sure. It lacks others that I use frequently on the Tivo (dual buffers, rich wishlist capability). More importantly, it is not reliable enough at this point to serve as my main DVR.
> 
> DirecTV made the choice to change DVRs, so I am not inclined to be particularly generous in allowing for "it's new" as an excuse.


Huh??

I was replying to a post explaining what was being compared, not offering an opinion.

It does serve as my main DVR now, but I wouldn't make the leap from there to the other things you are inferring.

Relax man, not everything is a "This is a Tivo killer" post.


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## jhrain (Dec 19, 2006)

I just want my HR10-250 fixed.. dammit DirecTV, get your house in order and get this fix out now!


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Huh??
> 
> I was replying to a post explaining what was being compared, not offering an opinion.
> 
> ...


I was responding to this:

_Nope, he's comparing the HR10 2 years into it's run with the HR20 4 months in._

That's all.

And I wasn't inferring anything. The remainder of my post was sharing my experience/opinion as an owner of both an HR10 and an HR20.

And I'm quite relaxed. You must be confusing me with a Tivo-at-all-costs fanatic. Which I am not.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Got Bwaldron. (for the record, I don't have you penciled into the fanboy camp.  )

I wasn't trying to imply that problems with the HR20 are ok because of it's newness. I don't feel that way. I think that's what you were focusing on.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Got Bwaldron. (for the record, I don't have you penciled into the fanboy camp.  )
> 
> I wasn't trying to imply that problems with the HR20 are ok because of it's newness. I don't feel that way. I think that's what you were focusing on.


Gotcha. We're good.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bpratt said:


> Trausch in this post: If thats true, then D* would be paying TiVo over 3 million per month or 36 million per year just for the HD TiVos. How much can it cost to develop, manufacture and support your own DVR?


A lot, when the one you develop is crap and people start canceling their service...



Billy66 said:


> In any case, it must cost plenty because TiVo service is like $19/mo and developing and supporting a DVR is all they do.


More 'like' $8/mo if you prepay, for $12.95/mo otherwise.



Mark Lopez said:


> These statements always crack me up.
> 
> For every Tivo lemming that jumps ship, at least ten others will jump on the DirecTv DVR. They won't be loosing any sleep over anyone leaving just becuse they can't have Tivo.


TIVO LEMMINGS?? You don't have to be a "TiVo Lemming" to want your DVR to work. I've talked to a LOT of people who are pissed at DirecTV, who could care less if it's a TiVo or not. They flat out don't work right. The R15 is a NIGHTMARE, and the HR20 isn't much better. These people will cancel and go to dish DVR's, Cable DVR's, or TiVo's. DirecTV used to have the lowest churn rates on the industry. That is now changing. Wait until the R15 users 2 year commitment is up!


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> You don't have too be a "TiVo Lemming" to want your DVR to work.


Roger that!


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

I concur!


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> More 'like' $8/mo if you prepay, for $12.95/mo otherwise.


Haven't had an SA in a while, but I thought it was $19.95/mo with a one year commitment for your first DVR. Is that not right?


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Customers are miffed...and now they're raising your rates starting 2/6.

enjoy...

-h


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Haven't had an SA in a while, but I thought it was $19.95/mo with a one year commitment for your first DVR. Is that not right?


I'm taking about 3 year commitment. I don't know why you would pay the extra $7/mo to only get 1 year. (or $14/mo vs. the 3 year pre-pay)

Especially when we're comparing to DirecTV who requires a two year agreement..


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I've been lifetime for a while, so it's a bit imaginary to me. I guess for comparison sake it would have to be a 2 year commitment rate because I (and anyone new) would have to be willing to commit for that period. Is there a 2 year rate? Also, (sorry for being ot), I have to pay it all upfront instead of monthly right? That's like a 5-8% cost of cash which for *me* would be negligible, but might be meaningful to others.

Thanks Adam115


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

harley3k said:


> Customers are miffed...and now they're raising your rates starting 2/6.
> 
> enjoy...
> 
> -h


For the new, the miffed customer's rates will remain the same.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> For the new, the miffed customer's rates will remain the same.


I know there's an indicator on my account that I'm 5 hearts or most favored (or whatever they call it now). It's good to know DirecTV updated their systems to include a "miffed" indicator. 

(I've worked with government data with PDT indicators: Potentially Dangerous Taxpayers. Who knows ... maybe DirecTV has a similar tracking feature for the potentially or confirmed miffed customers!  )


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Contrary to how I come off here, my miffed meter would not be empty that's for sure.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

All this discussion is making me quite glad I jumped from D* to Comcast when I did (when the S3 came out). That was 2 days after I got 6.3 which I'd been eagerly awaiting for years. So I never got to really live with 6.3, I didn't notice any of these problems but I was hardly using my HR10. 

How widespread are these problems anyway?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> I've been lifetime for a while, so it's a bit imaginary to me. I guess for comparison sake it would have to be a 2 year commitment rate because I (and anyone new) would have to be willing to commit for that period. Is there a 2 year rate? Also, (sorry for being ot), I have to pay it all upfront instead of monthly right? That's like a 5-8% cost of cash which for *me* would be negligible, but might be meaningful to others.
> 
> Thanks Adam115


Yes, I there is a two year rate. But if you prepay for two years ($299) you get a free year..


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