# DVRupgrade Giveaway--what about "no purchase necessary"



## ping

No big deal, just curious to hear the attorney portion of the SOAK's take on this. Doesn't there need to be an alternate (free) entry method other than joining TC Club?

(Talking about this)


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## wouldworker

They run the risk of being subject to lottery laws if there's no free way to enter. Methinks they didn't run this past the lawyers. Perhaps they consider it a contest, though I don't see that having $30 is a notable skill.


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## bqmeister

Does this mean I can't win?

Yeah, I immediately thought of that when I read that post.


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## LoadStar

IANAL, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I would suspect that you are indeed correct. Contests requiring a purchase to participate should offer an alternate means of entry for those who do not wish to place an order.

ETA: they should also have "official rules" available as well, which does not seem to be the case.


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## choccy

LoadStar said:


> IANAL, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I would suspect that you are indeed correct. Contests requiring a purchase to participate should offer an alternate means of entry for those who do not wish to place an order.


... even if that means sending in a post card with your name and address on it.. which they promise not to immediately throw in the trash upon arrival


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## bqmeister

We wouldn't be having this discussion if they just posted this in the members only forum.


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## uncdrew

You just can't do much without an attorney present these days.


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## wouldworker

LoadStar said:


> IANAL, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night


I just spent the last 15 minutes searching, but I came up empty. What does that mean? I know the IANAL part, but what is the rest about?


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## bqmeister

http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/ex/1/en/c/1/content/dec/ex/1/en/ha.html?cm_re=ex-_-hp-_-c2&a=b


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## LoadStar

wouldworker said:


> I just spent the last 15 minutes searching, but I came up empty. What does that mean? I know the IANAL part, but what is the rest about?


Sorry, just parroting a television ad campaign (yes, I know, tivo users don't see TV ads, blah, blah, woof, woof.)

Holiday Inn Express ran (still runs, I believe) a campaign featuring a regular, average person who acts like an expert in a particular situation. The scenes always end with someone asking the Regular Joe "Are you [an expert]?" to which the Regular Joe replies, "no, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night." The implication is that staying at a Holiday Inn Express is so smart, it makes everything else you do smart.


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## wouldworker

bqmeister said:


> http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/ex/1/en/c/1/content/dec/ex/1/en/ha.html?cm_re=ex-_-hp-_-c2&a=b


I take it that I would understand this if I saw a TV commercial for Holiday Inn Express?

ETA: I see LoadStar's explanation above. I guess I get it. Actually, I still don't get it. But at least I know where it comes from now.


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## pcguru83

wouldworker said:


> I just spent the last 15 minutes searching, but I came up empty. What does that mean? I know the IANAL part, but what is the rest about?


This is a pretty good example of what it means:


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## SoBelle0

Maybe it's really a raffle.


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## LoadStar

SoBelle0 said:


> Maybe it's really a raffle.


If it were a raffle, no purchase of a product or service would (or could) be required, and one could purchase as many entries as he/she wanted. This isn't a raffle.


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## waldingrl

Maybe it's a contest that if people post in a thread they are eligible, and the thread is in the member's only section.


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## choccy

waldingrl said:


> Maybe it's a contest that if people post in a thread they are eligible, and the thread is in the member's only section.


Nope, that would still require a purchase to enter


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## AJRitz

OK - I'd avoided this thread because it's not really my area of expertise. But I got a PM encouraging me, so I did some quick and dirty research and here's my take:

1) The core problem is that the sweepstakes, as advertised, meets the definition of a "lottery." A lottery has three elements: 1) a prize; 2) chance; and 3) consideration (some cost of entry). Because this sweepstakes is only open to those who have paid a $30 fee, it likely meets the definition of a lottery.
2) Lotteries are heavily regulated, both on the federal and state levels.
3) The way to prevent a sweepstakes from being treated as a lottery is to remove one of the elements - offer no prize (but that's just silly); remove chance as an element (so it's instead a "contest"); or remove consideration (provide a way to enter the sweepstakes without paying an entry fee).
4) The person who PM'ed me suggested that the TC Club membership fee isn't really a sweepstakes entry fee. The sweepstakes is just a benefit of membership. But I don't think that argument would fly with the FTC - especially since the sweepstakes has been used specifically to entice people to join TC Club.
5) I was able to track down at least one example of a sweepstakes being held by a membership club. The terms and conditions of the sweepstakes specified that members of the club were entered automatically. BUT, it also specified a method by which non-members could enter the contest for free and without having to become a member.

Bottom line - IMHO, the sweepstakes being advertised on TiVoCommunity.com is probably illegal. I likely violates federal law and possibly a number of state laws as well. If TCF were my client, I would advise them to either withdraw the sweepstakes or else spend some time ensuring that they are in full compliance with applicable laws (a free method of entry ain't the only problem here).

NOTE: I am a lawyer, but I am neither your lawyer nor the lawyer for tivocommunity.com, its owners, members, agents or assigns. For legal advice, please contact an attorney licensed to practice law in the applicable jurisdiction. And for God's sake don't try to represent yourself using NoloPress books and advice gleaned from Internet message boards. Remember, if you're sitting at the table and you can't identify the sucker - you ARE the sucker.


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## SoBelle0

LoadStar said:


> If it were a raffle, no purchase of a product or service would (or could) be required, and one could purchase as many entries as he/she wanted. This isn't a raffle.


Uh oh - when we do a fundraiser, we often sell raffle tickets - and there's no other way to get in on the winnings, other than to buy one... how else would one get their name in the hat?


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## heySkippy

AJRitz said:


> Remember, if you're sitting at the table and you can't identify the sucker - you ARE the sucker.


Words to live by.


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## sushikitten

Why can't people just accept this in the spirit with which it was intended without making a stink?


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## JayDog

Regulations are regulations. why should any one entity be exempt?


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## heySkippy

jenhudson said:


> Why can't people just accept this in the spirit with which it was intended without making a stink?


I wouldn't make a stink, but now that it's surfaced that they might have an issue they would be foolish not to investigate and fix if necessary.


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## ping

jenhudson said:


> Why can't people just accept this in the spirit with which it was intended without making a stink?


I thought I phrased my initial post in such a way as to be obvious I wasn't "making a stink". It was just idle Happy Hour chat. However, now that it's been moved to this forum I'll give the owners a bit of time to decide what they want to do before I start figuring out which State and/or Federal agencies would be interested. Seriously. _Edit: anger and frustration at being attacked_

BTW, what, exactly, do you think the spirit it was intended? As far as I can tell it was a lame bit of carrot to go along with the stick of the deluge of advertising to try and sell more subscriptions.


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## sushikitten

Yep, just as I thought. I should have kept my thoughts in the Aborted Reply Thread.

Good grief.


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## jakerock

jenhudson said:


> Why can't people just accept this in the spirit with which it was intended without making a stink?


Up until your post the spirit of the thread was asking a question in a non accusatory but curious way.



jenhudson said:


> Yep, just as I thought. I should have kept my thoughts in the Aborted Reply Thread.
> 
> Good grief.


I assume at this point that you wished you had accepted this thread in the spirit it was intended with out making a stink?


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## sushikitten

I don't wanna pay, I don't want ads, I want a free entry to the raffle because I don't want to pay, I want a pony.

Anything else?


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## JayDog

jenhudson said:


> I don't wanna pay, I don't want ads, I want a free entry to the raffle because I don't want to pay, I want a pony.
> 
> Anything else?


I don't want a pony. 

I saw the spirit of this conversation initially as looking for information about how such a contest is being run. what the rules and regulations of said contest are and what they should be.

not as a way for us no-paying members to get a free chance at the winnings.

I think it is generous of the OP to ask this question and bring about the discussion... it may actually help Capable networks from doing something that they maybe shouldn't be doing without someone _really_ raising a stink and bringing down the hammer on them.

I don't know enough about these rules/regulations on state and federal levels.. and maybe Capable's lawyers have covered their bases... but I think the initial question is worth looking into by all parties.


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## JoeyJoJo

ping said:


> I thought I phrased my initial post in such a way as to be obvious I wasn't "making a stink". It was just idle Happy Hour chat. However, now that it's been moved to this forum I'll give the owners a bit of time to decide what they want to do before I start figuring out which State and/or Federal agencies would be interested. Seriously.
> 
> BTW, what, exactly, do you think the spirit it was intended? As far as I can tell it was a lame bit of carrot to go along with the stick of the deluge of advertising to try and sell more subscriptions.


BS just asking the question you knew you were making a stink.

{edit - removed offensive reply - unixadm }


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## ping

JoeyJoJo said:


> BS just asking the question you knew you were making a stink.


BS right back at ya, pal. I struggled with how (and if, for that matter) to start this thread. I really thought "No big deal, just curious" was good enough. Whatever.


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## JoeyJoJo

ping said:


> BS right back at ya, pal. I struggled with how (and if, for that matter) to start this thread. I really thought "No big deal, just curious" was good enough. Whatever.


Anyway, from what I understand this version of vbulletin has a "reputation" feature. Perhaps we can get the admins to enable it so you can "neg" me.

You're being completely disingenuous about that. As long as you have been around here (each time) you know that it's not going to be something quiet, that it will stir up any excuse to complain.


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## nyny523

ping said:


> I thought I phrased my initial post in such a way as to be obvious I wasn't "making a stink". It was just idle Happy Hour chat. However, now that it's been moved to this forum I'll give the owners a bit of time to decide what they want to do before I start figuring out which State and/or Federal agencies would be interested. Seriously.
> 
> BTW, what, exactly, do you think the spirit it was intended? As far as I can tell it was a lame bit of carrot to go along with the stick of the deluge of advertising to try and sell more subscriptions.


I think if you were truly concerned about the ownership of the board and any possible legal action they might be facing, you could have sent Jeff Block a PM and voiced them privately.

Doing it in the manner you did does, indeed, reek of pot-stirring.

Sorry - but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em....


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## jakerock

JoeyJoJo said:


> Anyway, from what I understand this version of vbulletin has a "reputation" feature. Perhaps we can get the admins to enable it so you can "neg" me.
> 
> You're being completely disingenuous about that. As long as you have been around here (each time) you know that it's not going to be something quiet, that it will stir up any excuse to complain.


I am not sure if you are saying the OP has a reputation for stirring up things (you know the OP well enough to know what kind of things he likes to do) or if you are saying that anyone who has posted as much as the OP knows that you can't ask anything here with out it stirring something up.

I'm with JayDog. It seemed like a simple (and I thought interesting - but I am an engineer married to a lawyer) question. It isn't like the guy was said something obviously offensive like "Hey I am not 100% in love with my TiVo today." 

I am not interested in entering a contest whether it is free or they charge for it. I was interested in what I thought was the original question of the thread. That is assuming the question was what the OP asked and not anything subliminal designed to enrage or stir up the masses.


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## heySkippy

I also think it's an interesting question that deserved to be asked in public. Now that it's been asked, I am interested in what will be done in response.


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## JoeyJoJo

jakerock said:


> I am not sure if you are saying the OP has a reputation for stirring up things (you know the OP well enough to know what kind of things he likes to do) or if you are saying that anyone who has posted as much as the OP knows that you can't ask anything here with out it stirring something up.
> 
> I'm with JayDog. It seemed like a simple (and I thought interesting - but I am an engineer married to a lawyer) question. It isn't like the guy was said something obviously offensive like "Hey I am not 100% in love with my TiVo today."
> 
> I am not interested in entering a contest whether it is free or they charge for it. I was interested in what I thought was the original question of the thread. That is assuming the question was what the OP asked and not anything subliminal designed to enrage or stir up the masses.


As Ninny pointed out, if he wasn't trying to make trouble, he could have PM'd the owners of the site and asked his question. He knew what he was doing.


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## jakerock

nyny523 said:


> I think if you were truly concerned about the ownership of the board and any possible legal action they might be facing, you could have sent Jeff Block a PM and voiced them privately.
> 
> Doing it in the manner you did does, indeed, reek of pot-stirring.
> 
> Sorry - but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em....


I missed the post where the OP indicated he was truly concerned about any aspect of the thing. I thought he said he didn't really care but was curious.

It seems to me the thread was going along quite nicely answering the question with out any controversy until those people so concerned about the pot showed up and started stirring.

But I am mostly a lurker here and am not up on the ins and outs of posting. I am probably naive and seem to be in the minority.


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## JayDog

JoeyJoJo said:


> As Ninny pointed out, if he wasn't trying to make trouble, he could have PM'd the owners of the site and asked his question. He knew what he was doing.


But... by him posting and creating this discussion, it has given me an opportunity to learn something that I hadn't known about before. I am interested in learning new things.... even though I see no answer yet, I still find it interesting.


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## bqmeister

JoeyJoJo said:


> As Ninny pointed out, if he wasn't trying to make trouble, he could have PM'd the owners of the site and asked his question. He knew what he was doing.


He asked a question that was on MANY peoples' minds. Taking a discussion that many people are interested in to PM isn't the best approach, IMO.


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## Adam1115

Wait, the grand prize is a non-tivo DVR???

That's weird...


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## JoeyJoJo

JayDog said:


> But... by him posting and creating this discussion, it has given me an opportunity to learn something that I hadn't known about before. I am interested in learning new things.... even though I see no answer yet, I still find it interesting.


This is most likely as close to a *legal* answer that you'll get.



AJRitz said:


> OK - I'd avoided this thread because it's not really my area of expertise. But I got a PM encouraging me, so I did some quick and dirty research and here's my take:
> 
> 1) The core problem is that the sweepstakes, as advertised, meets the definition of a "lottery." A lottery has three elements: 1) a prize; 2) chance; and 3) consideration (some cost of entry). Because this sweepstakes is only open to those who have paid a $30 fee, it likely meets the definition of a lottery.
> 2) Lotteries are heavily regulated, both on the federal and state levels.
> 3) The way to prevent a sweepstakes from being treated as a lottery is to remove one of the elements - offer no prize (but that's just silly); remove chance as an element (so it's instead a "contest"); or remove consideration (provide a way to enter the sweepstakes without paying an entry fee).
> 4) The person who PM'ed me suggested that the TC Club membership fee isn't really a sweepstakes entry fee. The sweepstakes is just a benefit of membership. But I don't think that argument would fly with the FTC - especially since the sweepstakes has been used specifically to entice people to join TC Club.
> 5) I was able to track down at least one example of a sweepstakes being held by a membership club. The terms and conditions of the sweepstakes specified that members of the club were entered automatically. BUT, it also specified a method by which non-members could enter the contest for free and without having to become a member.
> 
> Bottom line - IMHO, the sweepstakes being advertised on TiVoCommunity.com is probably illegal. I likely violates federal law and possibly a number of state laws as well. If TCF were my client, I would advise them to either withdraw the sweepstakes or else spend some time ensuring that they are in full compliance with applicable laws (a free method of entry ain't the only problem here).
> 
> NOTE: I am a lawyer, but I am neither your lawyer nor the lawyer for tivocommunity.com, its owners, members, agents or assigns. For legal advice, please contact an attorney licensed to practice law in the applicable jurisdiction. And for God's sake don't try to represent yourself using NoloPress books and advice gleaned from Internet message boards. Remember, if you're sitting at the table and you can't identify the sucker - you ARE the sucker.


All sorts of places do small raffles and contests and givaways that would be technically afoul of gaming laws. It doesn't change the fact that the way he brought this up was very clearly designed to rile someone up. And the fact that he posted that he's more interested in gettting legal action moving because it was moved out of HH, where it would be seen much more, shows his true colors.


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## LoadStar

JoeyJoJo said:


> All sorts of places do small raffles and contests and givaways that would be technically afoul of gaming laws. It doesn't change the fact that the way he brought this up was very clearly designed to rile someone up.


Might be clear in your view, but it doesn't seem clear to me. If I had taken notice of the contest, I might have asked the same question. I also would have likely would have done so in a public thread in lieu of a PM in order to get the opinion of those posters here with more legal experience than I.


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## GrondramB

JoeyJoJo said:


> This is most likely as close to a *legal* answer that you'll get.
> 
> All sorts of places do small raffles and contests and givaways that would be technically afoul of gaming laws. It doesn't change the fact that the way he brought this up was very clearly designed to rile someone up. And the fact that he posted that he's more interested in gettting legal action moving because it was moved out of HH, where it would be seen much more, shows his true colors.


I'm not sure its his true colors we are seeing more of. - Besides, he's pretty open about colors on an ongoing basis.


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## Adam1115

JoeyJoJo said:


> 3) The way to prevent a sweepstakes from being treated as a lottery is to remove one of the elements - offer no prize (but that's just silly); remove chance as an element (so it's instead a "contest"); or remove consideration (provide a way to enter the sweepstakes without paying an entry fee).


Right.

This makes sense. In other forums, it was sort of a contest. You picked numbers, and they picked a lottery drawing on a certain date. The top 3 people closest to those numbers win.


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## JoBeth66

I didn't see it as an attempt at pot-stirring, either, but maybe because I deal with contracts for a living - had I noticed there was a contest, I'm not sure I wouldn't have asked the same question.

And given that the thread has generated some response, it seems to me that the OP isn't the only one curious, and a public thread is certainly not a bad thing, in that case.


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## eddyj

HEre is my prediction: The result will be that they will drop the contest or raffle or whatever from the list of Club "benefits" and offer refunds for anyone who cares to cancel. And I dare say that no one that has signed up with the "new" club will ask for their money back, since no one signed up because of the possibility of winning said prize. And sadly, I suspect that some non-members will probably then feel good that they deprived the members of their ill-gotten reward. Not all, or even the majority, but I would bet cash that some will.


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## Langree

ping said:


> I thought I phrased my initial post in such a way as to be obvious I wasn't "making a stink". It was just idle Happy Hour chat. However, now that it's been moved to this forum *I'll give the owners a bit of time to decide what they want to do before I start figuring out which State and/or Federal agencies would be interested. Seriously.*


Wow

And I bet dollars to donuts you knew a stink would rise from you had that motive to begin with, and now if they don't deal with it in a way you like you're going to report them.

Nice.


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## nyny523

eddyj said:


> HEre is my prediction: The result will be that they will drop the contest or raffle or whatever from the list of Club "benefits" and offer refunds for anyone who cares to cancel. And I dare say that no one that has signed up with the "new" club will ask for their money back, since no one signed up because of the possibility of winning said prize. And sadly, I suspect that some non-members will probably then feel good that they deprived the members of their ill-gotten reward. Not all, or even the majority, but I would bet cash that some will.


I agree with this 100%.


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## heyitscory

Just put your name, phone number and address on a 3" x 5" card...

Box 350, Boston, Mass. Oh, two, one, three, four! Send it to ZOOM!


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## ced6

I don't get it


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## GrondramB

Jobeth66 said:


> I didn't see it as an attempt at pot-stirring, either, but maybe because I deal with contracts for a living - had I noticed there was a contest, I'm not sure I wouldn't have asked the same question.
> 
> And given that the thread has generated some response, it seems to me that the OP isn't the only one curious, and a public thread is certainly not a bad thing, in that case.


It really would have been just another off topic discussion, like the ones about the McRib or a thousand other things we talk about if it had not gotten moved out of the Happy Hour and into the official complaint channel - now its really got to be addressed instead of us just chatting about it and moving on to Barry Bonds being indicted or whatever.


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## busyba




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## JoeyJoJo

I want to take an opportunity to apologize to ping publicly on my behavior in this thread. He and I had a conversation and I DO believe that it was simple legal curiosity that prompted him to start this thread.

I am still frustrated with the griping about the elements of the site, especially when the new owners have shown several times that they are making good faith efforts to listen to the community while also balancing keeping a profitable venture for themselves.

Anyway, ping I am sorry for my remarks.


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## ping

I also want to apologize for my (empty) threat of legal action. I felt my motives were being unfairly attacked in this thread and didn't think before clicking. Ironically I allowed my anger to confirm the false suspicions.


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## busyba




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## Markman07

I don't even know what this particular thread is about anymore.


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## jakerock

It is about people with different views coming together in friendship and understanding.


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## busyba

Tonight, on a "very special" episode of TCF....


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## GrondramB

Ping and Joey. Very cool.


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## sushikitten

It's the most wonderful time of the year!


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## faerie

Glad to see this resolved! It seemed like a lot of people were reading something into this that just wasn't there. Harmony restored!

Right?

RIGHT?

I think we all just need a hug.


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## heySkippy

While I'm glad everyone is getting along again, I don't think the question about the lottery has been resolved. I would like to see a comment on the subject from our new Capable Overlords.


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## Jebberwocky!

jenhudson said:


> It's the most wonderful time of the year!


It's the hap - happiest season of all With those holiday greetings and gay happy meetings


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## GrondramB

macquariumguy said:


> While I'm glad everyone is getting along again, I don't think the question about the lottery has been resolved. I would like to see a comment on the subject from our new Capable Overlords.


I'm curious too but given that I have {no} desire to police the cyber equivalent of door prizes, I can live with it if they decide their legal advice/outlook on the matter is an internal business matter they don't discuss in public.

Even those of us with no intent on joining the club don't really mind if they give the club members a chance at something extra, do we? Heck, before they sold themselves for a Tee Shirt and less moderation most of them were all right folks.


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## eddyj

GrondramB said:


> Even those of us with no intent on joining the club don't really mind if they give the club members a chance at something extra, do we? Heck, before they sold themselves for a Tee Shirt and less moderation most of them were all right folks.


Most of us "sold ourselves" before the tee shirts too.


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## benh57

SoBelle0 said:


> Uh oh - when we do a fundraiser, we often sell raffle tickets - and there's no other way to get in on the winnings, other than to buy one... how else would one get their name in the hat?


Most raffles of this sort are illegal. You need to be 'registered' in most states, as well as be a non profit.


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## Jeff Block

macquariumguy said:


> While I'm glad everyone is getting along again, I don't think the question about the lottery has been resolved. I would like to see a comment on the subject from our new Capable Overlords.


I am definitely glad for that too! Sorry it's taken me longer than I would have liked to chime in on this. It's been a very busy day (week ), and we had to get word back from the lawyers on this, so that never speeds things up.

Anyway... Here's the skinny...

First, a big THANK YOU to the OP and others in this thread for bringing this to our attention ... as well as to those who insisted that we had good intentions (which we do). It was a serious oversight on our part not to post official rules. We should have. We didn't. Our fault. Won't happen again.

And then once we realized that we needed to post rules, we also realized that we have never done a contest / giveaway / extravaganza / whatever-you-wanna-call-it that involves a paid subscription to anything, so the existing set of rules we've used over and over on our sites for years didn't apply. So, that led to circling the attorney wagons, and thus the whole day's gone by before I could get the updated rules out there.

So, with that lengthy explanation out of the way, I'm pleased to announce that the giveaway is still on ... with newly posted rules.

Lastly, I want to make it clear that it is our express intention to treat everyone fairly and provide opportunities for people to enjoy the community MORE / get MORE out of it. If you joined TC Club in the last few days, please make sure you read the rules to the contest. If *anything* there makes you uncomfortable or in some way makes you wish that you hadn't joined or makes you feel somehow cheated or *whatever*, please just send me a PM, and we will gladly refund your TC Club Registration fee immediately. It is absolutely not our intention to bait-and-switch anyone, so just let me know if you feel that way at all.

Okay, that's a wrap. Long post, sorry! Thanks again to everyone. And thanks also for resolving differences in such a civil way. I'm so proud. 

Hope lots of people join the club, we give lots of stuff away, and that there is lots more stuff to give away in the future. Keep in mind that there will be more perks to come re: TC Club. We're just getting started.

Have a great night, all!

-Jeff

PS - One of the best things I did today was download busybe's popcorn and group hug icons. I laughed out loud when I saw the hug one. *tips hat* :up:


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## heySkippy

Awesome. Good job Jeff.


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## waldingrl

Thanks, Jeff. :up:


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## ced6

waldingrl said:


> Thanks, Jeff. :up:


Ditto. Thanks for keeping us updated


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## BeanMeScot

Woo Hoo! The giveaway is still on! Thanks, Jeff!


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## busyba

Jeff Block said:


> PS - One of the best things I did today was download busybe's popcorn and group hug icons. I laughed out loud when I saw the hug one. *tips hat* :up:


Thank you. That will be $30.


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## Snowman

JoeyJoJo said:


> As Ninny pointed out, if he wasn't trying to make trouble, he could have PM'd the owners of the site and asked his question. He knew what he was doing.


Actually, I'm quite glad it was posted as a topic. I knew nothing about it, and always wondered why there had to be a "free" chance to enter all of these "no purchase necessary" giveaways. Now I know, and that could actually come in handy down the road if I ever open a restaurant.


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## YCantAngieRead

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff! I'm excited it's still on!


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## Inundated

I love stories with happy endings.


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## ping

Very cool. Thanks. :up:


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## heySkippy

And with that, it appears Ping has left the building.


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