# Elgato HD DVR vs. TiVO



## klrobinson999 (Aug 26, 2010)

Looking the new Elgato HD DVR for the Mac, and its use of IR blasters and direct connection to the cable box, one wonders why TiVo went with the CableCard. Why choose complexity over simple plug-and-play? What advantages does the CableCard provide? The Elgato system apparently works with cable, satellite, & FiOS, and will record premium and VOD content, without the need for a site visit by a tech or an additional tuning adapter.

Note that I'm talking about the way the Elgato HD grabs content, not that I think TiVos should be attached to computers to actually work. TiVo would, of course, include an internal hard drive and other features as a standalone device. The Elgato system simply seems more streamlined and better positioned in this constantly changing world of Switched Digital and cable scrambling.

http://www.elgato.com/elgato/na/mainmenu/products/EyeTV-HD/product1.en.html

I'm just curious if anyone else thinks TiVo needs to re-think how they grab content for their DVRs.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

klrobinson999 said:


> Looking the new Elgato HD DVR for the Mac, and its use of IR blasters and direct connection to the cable box, one wonders why TiVo went with the CableCard. Why choose complexity over simple plug-and-play? What advantages does the CableCard provide? The Elgato system apparently works with cable, satellite, & FiOS, and will record premium and VOD content, without the need for a site visit by a tech or an additional tuning adapter.
> 
> Note that I'm talking about the way the Elgato HD grabs content, not that I think TiVos should be attached to computers to actually work. TiVo would, of course, include an internal hard drive and other features as a standalone device. The Elgato system simply seems more streamlined and better positioned in this constantly changing world of Switched Digital and cable scrambling.
> 
> ...


So this is your idea of simple "plug and play"?:









And this is complexity?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

klrobinson999 said:


> What advantages does the CableCard provide?


Let's see... I plug it in, make one phone call, and 5 minutes later I have every channel Comcast broadcasts, ready to record.

One piece of equipment is all I have, a TiVo. No cable box, nothing. Simplicity is beautiful. :up:


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

How does it handle dual tuner?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The reason for built in tuners with Cablecard is simplicity, value, and dual tuners. They can make a complete dual tuner DVR for well under $500.

Boxes were a problem.


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

Also, everyone missed this point, is the TiVo records the digital stream DIRECTLY.

An Elgato EyeTV HD records component output. So it re-encodes from the analog domain into the digital domain. With that re-encode, you lose quality. And it records 2-channel stereo, it doesn't record the digital audio.


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## HiJon89 (Jan 26, 2011)

Capturing analog output from a STB and converting to digital and controlling with an IR blaster is garbage. You destroy video quality, lose surround sound, have only a single tuner, and if you bring up the scroll bar on the cable box on the bottom of the screen to browse channels while something is recording, that bar on the bottom is permanently embedded into the recording since the Elgato records whatever the video stream from the STB has in it. About as far from an elegant solution as you can get.


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## tre74 (Nov 12, 2010)

Been looking at the eyeTV for info myself. The eyeTV Hybrid is a simple version consisting of a USB stick tuner that connects to a coaxial cable. It can record OTA. It works with Macs and PC's with Windows 7. Although there is a dual tuner version for Europeans, there is not one for the US market. I am tempted to try this thing out. It would be nice to have another tuner to use in my system. I am quite happy with my Premiere but still long for a third tuner.....and better Netflix.....and better HD UI.....and had better stop now while I'm still happy with it. The Super Bowl looked amazing today. Noticed Fergie sporting new lips for the half time show. OTA HD rules!


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

SoBayJake said:


> Also, everyone missed this point, is the TiVo records the digital stream DIRECTLY.
> 
> An Elgato EyeTV HD records component output. So it re-encodes from the analog domain into the digital domain. With that re-encode, you lose quality. And it records 2-channel stereo, it doesn't record the digital audio.


Are you sure of this? Last I heard the EyeTV records the ATSC digital stream much like Tivo does.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Budget_HT said:


> Are you sure of this? Last I heard the EyeTV records the ATSC digital stream much like Tivo does.


 Look at the picture:








So as mentioned it's capturing analog (component) video and stereo audio and encoding on the fly to H.264. There is no coax input and no mention of ATSC tuner for OTA tuning.
Hardly a better solution than capturing the original digital streams (both QAM & ATSC) which is what HD TiVos do.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And no digital audio in/out with this either - yuck.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

My mistake!

I was confusing different EyeTV products, since in the past I came close to buying this one:
http://www.elgato.com/elgato/na/mainmenu/products/EyeTV-One/product2.html

I had not seen the newer component-input product from EyeTV.


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## klrobinson999 (Aug 26, 2010)

*I think everyone's missing my point:* I'm *not* saying that the Elgato is the perfect solution, or even an alternative to the HD and tuning capabilities of the TiVo. I'm saying that there is alternative way to grab content, to go around the cable providers and their limitations (Switched Digital, house call for CableCard install, Tuning adapters, lack of VOD), and to make it easier for a plug-and-play method for the consumer.

TiVO's version could be HDMI and not component or composite. It would have its own hard drive and not rely on a computer. It could have digital audio.

My post is to challenge the method of end-user delivery, not promote the actual Elgato product over the TiVO.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

HDMI is HDCP protected, and while recently has been cracked TiVo could not legally capture HDMI stream. The method you are proposing would require a TiVo box, IR blaster and cable provider box which hardly makes it an elegant solution. What TiVo could do to clean things up is have integrated tuning adapter in their box, but tuning adapter is really a stop gap solution to the SDV problem. Lack of VOD personally I don't care about at all but there is solution to that problem as well as evidenced by the Cox/TiVo agreement which will allow Cox VOD via the TiVo Premiere without any compromise to other Premiere applications (Netflix, Youtube etc).

There have been component capture devices that encode to HD output on the fly for quite a long time now, so the Elgato solution is nothing new in that respect either.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo would have to be in a pretty powerful position to be able to record HDMI from a pay TV box, becasue of HCDP.

Until then, I think a Cablecard/ATSC tuner is pretty cost effective, even if it alienates satellite/IPTV users.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

klrobinson999 said:


> *I think everyone's missing my point:*


No, I think you are. How would your proposed solution get around the DMCA? How would it handle two tuners? How much space would you need to store uncompressed digital video?


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## klrobinson999 (Aug 26, 2010)

SullyND said:


> No, I think you are. How would your proposed solution get around the DMCA? How would it handle two tuners? How much space would you need to store uncompressed digital video?


No, my point was exactly what it was.

Damn the DMCA!


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## klrobinson999 (Aug 26, 2010)

moyekj said:


> HDMI is HDCP protected, and while recently has been cracked TiVo could not legally capture HDMI stream. The method you are proposing would require a TiVo box, IR blaster and cable provider box which hardly makes it an elegant solution. What TiVo could do to clean things up is have integrated tuning adapter in their box, but tuning adapter is really a stop gap solution to the SDV problem. Lack of VOD personally I don't care about at all but there is solution to that problem as well as evidenced by the Cox/TiVo agreement which will allow Cox VOD via the TiVo Premiere without any compromise to other Premiere applications (Netflix, Youtube etc).
> 
> There have been component capture devices that encode to HD output on the fly for quite a long time now, so the Elgato solution is nothing new in that respect either.


Do those Tuning adapters even work properly or is there always a problem?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

klrobinson999 said:


> Do those Tuning adapters even work properly or is there always a problem?


 They work perfectly for me (for both a TiVo S3 and Premiere) and I'm sure for many others. There are certain TWC markets where there still are issues, specifically for Cisco tuning adapters, so doesn't work perfectly for everyone, but I don't think there are widespread problems with them.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

klrobinson999 said:


> No, my point was exactly what it was.
> 
> Damn the DMCA!


forget the fact that you dont understand how any of this works, and forget about the DMCA, what you need to understand is that tivo is not in the business of accommodating the three of you that are in the same market as El Gato.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

klrobinson999 said:


> No, my point was exactly what it was.
> 
> Damn the DMCA!


You answered one of my questions (as crazy as your response may be). How about the other two?

How would it handle two tuners? 
How much space would you need to store uncompressed digital video?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

klrobinson999 said:


> Do those Tuning adapters even work properly or is there always a problem?


now you are just trying to FUD things up to promote your point of view.

TiVo could add a component input on the back of the TiVo HD and the hardware to record that to hard drive and also the IR blasters - but it is simply a step back to a one tuner with the kludge of IR blasters and needing a cable box.

But that would be a significant step backwards versus dealing with a tuning adapter that are getting better as the tech matures.


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## klrobinson999 (Aug 26, 2010)

I keep hearing bad things about the tuning adapters....answer the question: are they dependable or going to cause one a ton of headaches with the SDV?


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## SoBayJake (Feb 6, 2002)

klrobinson999 said:


> I keep hearing bad things about the tuning adapters....answer the question: are they dependable or going to cause one a ton of headaches with the SDV?


It was answered...refer to post #19 above. Making demands won't really get you many friends around here.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

klrobinson999 said:


> I keep hearing bad things about the tuning adapters....answer the question: are they dependable or going to cause one a ton of headaches with the SDV?


are IR blasters always dependable to change channels or do some cable boxes give you a ton of problems? You act like you have some perfect solution when all it is is yet another option with its own issues and drawbacks


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

klrobinson999 said:


> I'm just curious if anyone else thinks TiVo needs to re-think how they grab content for their DVRs.


No. However, the OP needs to reconsider the "one-size-fits-all" perspective on things (not just DVR's). There are certainly those who would prefer Elegato's approach, considering its pros and cons. Same thing for the Tivo. Not all solutions for a given type of product need to use the same approach.



klrobinson999 said:


> The Elgato system simply seems more streamlined and better positioned in this constantly changing world of Switched Digital and cable scrambling.


Better is always subjective, regardless of the topic. As stated above, the better option depends on the specific person's needs/wants/priorities.



klrobinson999 said:


> I keep hearing bad things about the tuning adapters....answer the question: are they dependable or going to cause one a ton of headaches with the SDV?


You also need to keep in mind that any discussion forum site is going to have a disproportionate number of threads on issues. I mean, hit any discussion forum site for any product and if you rely solely on problem posts you'd think that all products are nothing but trouble. It's the nature of these sites. Think about it, how often do people go through the trouble of finding a forum site and registering just to post that everything is working fine? The people with problems are the ones that are the most motivated.

Don't rely on forum posts as any sort of useful statistical tool. They're not directly useful in that manner. They are useful, however, for spotting the more common problems.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

klrobinson999 said:


> *I think everyone's missing my point:*...


No.

We got your point.

_"...one wonders why TiVo went with the CableCard. Why choose complexity over simple plug-and-play? What advantages does the CableCard provide? The Elgato system apparently works with cable, satellite, & FiOS, and will record premium and VOD content, without the need for a site visit by a tech or an additional tuning adapter."_

Your point was that it's simpler and better to feed signals from a cable box to a recorder...a box the recorder has to use an IR blaster to control...than to feed a signal directly into the recorder which is able to tune and descramble channels on its own, recording directly off the tuner rather than recording video and audio being fed from an external box that needs to be controlled.

Even if a TiVo does need a tuning adapter, once it's connected, you're done. It's essentially a part of the TiVo now, despite the dongle.

Your suggested method is lumpy. TiVo's is streamlined. Yours requires trying to control a cable box and recording from an A/V feed off an external tuner. TiVo's is essentially an all-in-one package.

We understand your point, all right. We simply see it as invalid.

The only positive aspect in your method is that it allows for putting a filter between the cable box and recorder, which would then allow you do as you like with the recordings, whereas some or many TiVo recordings can't be burned to DVD or transferred due to anti-copy signals on a cable system. Since you didn't raise this issue...


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Not only that, but to get dual-tuner functionality you'd have to rent two HD STBs from the cableCo to equal a Tivo w/Cablecard, which would probably cost more per month than the Tivo service itself.

As you said, recording component-in means unlimited transfers because you bypass DRM. That and ability to use with sat are the only two redeeming features in my mind for this kludge of a setup. Some folks are using the HD-PVRs with Sage or 7MC for exactly these reasons.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

There's an alternative to renting two STBs from the cable company.

Almost all (all?) cable companies deliver local HD channels in QAM "in the clear". They're there, just hiding at wierd channel assignments like 80-62. That means you can digitally record the locals by using an HDHomeRun and PC/Mac. Then you only need to use component kluges for the non-network channels. Unfortunately that doesn't work for satellite, just for cable.

In addition, if you have a cable company DVR (or a TiVo), then you only need to record component output for stuff you actually want to archive. There are many many shows I watch that I don't need to archive. So a single channel archiving solution might work.

Having said all that, I'm happy with *just TiVos* in the house. This way all rooms work the same, and network programs can be transferred from box to box. Unfortunately my cable provider (Frontier) prevents copying any program that's not from a local channel.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

I'd kill for TiVo to use my cablebox. Why? Because I'm in Canada, and because we don't have pesky FCC rules like interoperability, cable companies here only activate boxes they sell, and all channels are encrypted. There's no such thing as CableCARD support, either. If you want no STB, you can have the basic cable channels in analog. If you want digital channels, or HD, you must buy their cable box.

Hell, they even disabled firewire.


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