# Premiere Elite-MOCA Support



## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

For some reason, I still have trouble understanding how MOCA works. I have Verizon FIOS and I currently use my own Netgear router with a second Netgear router in repeater mode (due to the size of my house).

I noticed that the Elite says "MoCA® support (including MoCA bridge)"

What exactly does this mean? If I switch to the Verizon MOCA router and I just connect a regular old coax cable to the Elite, I will be connected to the internet???

Does anyone know if Verizon offers an N router yet? The one that I have is a G router and I definitely don't want that.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Verizon has an N router. But you could also just get an access point. I have four access points in my condo so all my wireless devices have plenty of bandwidth.


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## news4me2 (Jul 10, 2010)

aadam101 said:


> For some reason, I still have trouble understanding how MOCA works. I have Verizon FIOS and I currently use my own Netgear router with a second Netgear router in repeater mode (due to the size of my house).
> 
> I noticed that the Elite says "MoCA® support (including MoCA bridge)"
> 
> What exactly does this mean? If I switch to the Verizon MOCA router and I just connect a regular old coax cable to the Elite, I will be connected to the internet???


YES, if you were using a Verizon MOCA router, you could simply connect the Elite to your Coax cable and skip any Wireless or Ethernet connection. Using MOCA, the Elite will have access to the Internet thru the Verizon MOCA Router.

If you don't use a MOCA Router, you will still be able to use your current Wireless Repeater to connect to the Ethernet port on the Elite.

Lastly, the MOCA bridge allows the Elite to use the coax cable to support a downstream Preview box (or any older Tivo box that is using an external MOCA device for networking).


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

MoCA goes up to layer 2 only. This means that it can only natively communicate with devices on a local network. I assume by the inclusion of the term 'router' in the 'Verizon MoCA router' that it will enable an MoCA device to communicate over the Internet. (But I would double check on that). I would also assume that the TiVo Elite should not be configured as an MoCA bridge if you connect to it using an MoCA router.

Anyone know if an MoCA router encapsulates MoCA frames, translates or what?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

MoCA is still kind of new, so yeah it's confusing.

The Vz routers natively support wireless, ethernet and Moca... It doesn't seem to care which path data takes, they're all part of the same network, and then the router talks to the ONT and that's how everything gets it's outside connection.

So in theory on a Fios setup, a MoCA'ed Elite SHOULD be able to talk to a wireless or ethernet Tivo without a problem since it's all on the same network.

I have a computer connected over a MoCA-to-Ethernet bridge, works great. The Vz router sees the computer and it just works with no extra setup. The Elite should be the same way.

Only one heads-up... To spare some folks the headache in advance... When using Vz's router, the router itself is the moca bridge. The Elite is a user/client/whatever they call it. There's likely to be a setting of some kind to adjust this.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> MoCA goes up to layer 2 only. This means that it can only natively communicate with devices on a local network. I assume by the inclusion of the term 'router' in the 'Verizon MoCA router' that it will enable an MoCA device to communicate over the Internet. (But I would double check on that). I would also assume that the TiVo Elite should not be configured as an MoCA bridge if you connect to it using an MoCA router.
> 
> Anyone know if an MoCA router encapsulates MoCA frames, translates or what?


Verizon's router is very similar regular router that you would buy at a local store with an internal bridge to MoCA. It really isn't confusing... You don't really need to know anything about the types of things you are mentioning. When they talk about MoCA being local only, what they mean is on a cable network you won't be transmitting things to the world with it. This is important due to the fact that the cabling used is the same as your cable operator (thus could support transmitting to the world if MoCA allowed). Thus just like WiFi, Ethernet, Ethernet over powerline, and Ethernet over phoneline; MoCA is designed to be used for local area networks, not wide area networks. Now, just like your WiFi and regular Ethernet, you can share the internet onto MoCA...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why kind of speeds does the FiOS MoCA connection get? I never tested mine since I had them set me up with Ethernet four years ago. I have two Dlink MoCA devices but I only get around 70Mbps between the two devices which is expected according to SmallNetBuilder. With those if I had a third one the total bandwidth would increase to over 100Mbps. 
I only use it for my alarm system and VOIP but I could not use it for my TiVos since 70Mbps is too slow since my current Premieres get 85Mbps to 95Mbps transfer rates over my gigabit backbone.


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## skillmey (Feb 28, 2009)

The Actiontec MoCA router has the wireless, Ethernet, and MoCA connections bridged (i.e. Layer 2 connectivity). If you have the Actiontec router, you just need to plug in the Elite and make sure the MoCA is enabled. There are Wireless-N versions of the Actiontec router. If the router is connected to the internet, any MoCA connection will have internet connectivity.

The MoCA frame encapsulates multiple Ethernet frames, but this is seamless. All the MoCA, wireless and Ethernet devices are bridged together (this is LAN). The Actiontec router uses a separate MoCA or Ethernet WAN connection to connect to the ONT (and internet)

There is no concept of a 'user/client' with MoCA (there is a network coordinator, but for connectivity, all nodes are peers and no configuration is required).

Regarding throughput, MoCA 1.0 provides >130Mbps and MoCA 1.1 provides >175Mbps of 'aggregate' UDP throughput. for example, a MoCA 1.1 network could support >8 video streams of 20Mbps each (total, not per node). Other limitations arise from TCP-IP (and latency), when 10/100M Ethernet connections are used (hence the lower rates reported by smallnetbuilder), packet size, etc.

My way of thinking about it.... 11g can't support a single 20Mbps video stream. 11n can support a couple streams in the same room (but not between distant rooms in a house), MoCA can support at least 5 reliably. Unlike Netflix's compressed, variable ~5Mbps video streams, the service providers are usng ~20Mbps MPEG2. Fast forward requires a multiple of that throughput.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

skillmey said:


> There is no concept of a 'user/client' with MoCA (there is a network coordinator, but for connectivity, all nodes are peers and no configuration is required).


Fios allows 1 moca bridge in a network (the main router). Learned this the hard way when adding additional actiontec routers around the house. I don't know what the terminology is for the correct setting (Access Point maybe?), and the Elite may or may not be smart enough to self-configure, but if not, Fios router users using moca won't want Elite to be set up as a bridge. They'll want... whatever isn't the bridge.  user/client/access point/whatever.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fios allows 1 moca bridge in a network (the main router). Learned this the hard way when adding additional actiontec routers around the house. I don't know what the terminology is for the correct setting (Access Point?), and the Elite may or may not be smart enough to do it automatically, but if not, Fios router users using moca won't want Elite to be set up as a bridge. They'll want... whatever isn't the bridge.  user/client/access point/whatever.


So wait. If I understand you, I can use my Netgear router. The Tivo Elite can act as the MoCa bridge and provide my home with a MoCa connection?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

aadam101 said:


> So wait. If I understand you, I can use my Netgear router. The Tivo Elite can act as the MoCa bridge and provide my home with a MoCa connection?


In most people's cases, not having an existing moca network, the Elite would be a bridge for the Preview or another theoretical moca device that the Elite could talk to. But I don't know about any devices beyond that.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fios allows 1 moca bridge in a network (the main router). Learned this the hard way when adding additional actiontec routers around the house. I don't know what the terminology is for the correct setting (Access Point maybe?), and the Elite may or may not be smart enough to self-configure, but if not, Fios router users using moca won't want Elite to be set up as a bridge. They'll want... whatever isn't the bridge.  user/client/access point/whatever.


Huh? Fios allows 7 moca devices on it's version of the protocol. I have two actionetec routers on my network. The main rev d router with wireless b and the rev f actiontec wireless n router acting as a bridge.

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfios/3.2_MOCA


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Aero 1 said:


> Huh? Fios allows 7 moca devices on it's version of the protocol. I have two actionetec routers on my network. The main rev d router with wireless b and the rev f actiontec wireless n router acting as a bridge.
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfios/3.2_MOCA


7 moca devices. But only 1 *bridge.* You change a bunch of settings and essentially make the additional ones Access Points, correct? Ditto for the Elite. That's all I'm trying to explain. Poorly, apparently.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> 7 moca devices. But only 1 *bridge.* You make the others an Access Point, correct? Ditto for the Elite. That's all I'm trying to explain. Poorly, apparently.


7. All moca devices are bridges. There is no such thing as moca access points. Older fios installs are based on moca 1.0 that only allow 7 devices. The new routers apparently are or will be moca 1.1 and that will allow 16 bridges.

http://mocablog.net/faq/

Now, it has to be seen if the elite will allow it to be a full pass through bridge. Meaning if it will get it's network connectivity through coax and allowing another Ethernet device connected to it's Ethernet port to obtain a separate ip address from the dhcp pool (handed out by the main moca router) to allow it get network access.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Aero 1 said:


> 7. All moca devices are bridges. There is no such thing as moca access points. Older fios installs are based on moca 1.0 that only allow 7 devices. The new routers apparently are or will be moca 1.1 and that will allow 16 bridges.
> 
> http://mocablog.net/faq/
> 
> Now, it has to be seen if the elite will allow it to be a full pass through bridge. Meaning if it will get it's network connectivity through coax and allowing another Ethernet device connected to it's Ethernet port to obtain a separate ip address from the dhcp pool (handed out by the main moca router) to allow it get network access.


So a MoCa router will be required no matter what?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

In any event, regardless of the terminology, there's potential for confusion based on whether or not there is an existing moca network. Fios router users should be mindful that the Vz router is a moca bridge, so setup the Elite as just a simple moca device with coax only. 86 any other possible settings or connections that can/will bork the network. Just file it under "keep it in mind" once Elites start getting out.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

aadam101 said:


> So a MoCa router will be required no matter what?


I'm going to say yes since you need the primary router to give out dhcp addresses to Ethernet LAN and moca LAN devices. Or you can use one of those moca kits from drink and what not. You need a minimum of 2 moca devices in order to bridge the LAN over coax.

Remember, the elite is marketed to MSOs and QAM only systems, and moat MSOs are doing home dvr setup which work via moca.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

socrplyr said:


> Verizon's router is very similar regular router that you would buy at a local store with an internal bridge to MoCA. It really isn't confusing... You don't really need to know anything about the types of things you are mentioning. When they talk about MoCA being local only, what they mean is on a cable network you won't be transmitting things to the world with it. This is important due to the fact that the cabling used is the same as your cable operator (thus could support transmitting to the world if MoCA allowed). Thus just like WiFi, Ethernet, Ethernet over powerline, and Ethernet over phoneline; MoCA is designed to be used for local area networks, not wide area networks. Now, just like your WiFi and regular Ethernet, you can share the internet onto MoCA...


Well a TiVo needs to make it's daily call, get software updates and otherwise communicate with TiVo.com's Internet servers. Since MoCA has no idea what an IP address is, nor a domain name and only has the ability to communicate locally on a LAN, an MoCA router would have to know how to figure out that the TiVo wants to have its communications routed over the Internet and where that needs to go. Probably if this happens, it happens by the TiVo encapsulating IP in the MoCA frame and the MoCA router stripping out the IP content and forwarding that over the Internet.


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## lgerbarg (Jun 26, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fios allows 1 moca bridge in a network (the main router). Learned this the hard way when adding additional actiontec routers around the house. I don't know what the terminology is for the correct setting (Access Point maybe?), and the Elite may or may not be smart enough to self-configure, but if not, Fios router users using moca won't want Elite to be set up as a bridge. They'll want... whatever isn't the bridge.  user/client/access point/whatever.


Totally incorrect, I used to run 4 bridges on home network. Hell, a normally configured Moca Router actually has two bridges coming off the same port (one in MoCA WAN mode talking to the ONT, one in MoCA LAN mode talking to the STBs).

What you can't have is multiple routers fighting over who talks to the ONT, or bridge loops. In my case I used my router as a bridge, to route IP onto my CoAX. I then plugged 3 other bridges into the coax in my house and hung various devices and wifi base stations off them, all of which connected back to the router over their bridges via the coax (my house is old and has 14 inch thick walls which interfere with wifi and make running new cable a PITA).

Assuming the Elite is setup in anything resembling a reasonable way then what most FiOS users will observe is that they do not need to plug in its ethernet port in order to get guide data or do MRV (since it will just get an IP over MoCA from the router, just like all FiOS STBs do), and that if they have other ethernet devices next to the Elite they will be able to use its ethernet port as an uplink back to the router.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

lgerbarg said:


> What you can't have is multiple routers fighting over who talks to the ONT, or bridge loops.


Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to get at, I just didn't have a grasp of the terminology. There's potential for some network issues if set up incorrectly, mainly by folks that don't know that the Vz router does moca natively (i.e. most people have no idea what it is). We know this but there is guaranteed to be some posts from Fios folks wondering why their network is screwed up. My heart is in the right place to try to warn them in advance, anyway. lol.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Well a TiVo needs to make it's daily call, get software updates and otherwise communicate with TiVo.com's Internet servers. Since MoCA has no idea what an IP address is, nor a domain name and only has the ability to communicate locally on a LAN, an MoCA router would have to know how to figure out that the TiVo wants to have its communications routed over the Internet and where that needs to go. Probably if this happens, it happens by the TiVo encapsulating IP in the MoCA frame and the MoCA router stripping out the IP content and forwarding that over the Internet.


You are looking at things a very different levels. If you want to go down to that level, it is the same for WiFi and for Ethernet (before switches with only hubs). In reality, there is no such thing as a MoCA router (that would indicate that there is routing within the MoCA network happening). There is a router with a MoCA bridge in it... Just like there is no such thing as a Wireless router (there is a router with a built in wireless access point - aka bridge - in it). The same holds for ethernet, although with the advent of switches (over hubs), this has become blurred as the switch does read parts of the packet.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

Equating WiFi to MoCA only goes so far. MoCA clients do not have IP addresses, WiFi clients do.,


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Equating WiFi to MoCA only goes so far. MoCA clients do not have IP addresses, WiFi clients do.,


You are mixing and matching different network layers. They both do and they both don't at different layers...


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

socrplyr said:


> You are mixing and matching different network layers. They both do and they both don't at different layers...


Right. TCP/IP will sit on top of WiFi, Ethernet, Token Ring, et al. MoCA sits on top of coax, is local only and stops at the data link layer.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Right. TCP/IP will sit on top of WiFi, Ethernet, Token Ring, et al. MoCA sits on top of coax, is local only and stops at the data link layer.


You are confusing yourself. MoCA supports transport of TCP/IP packets. Thus, it is just as global/local as Wifi. It also supports non-TCP/IP data which of course would be only available via a MoCA connection (AKA local only). In reality this work almost exactly like WiFi. When the data is transmitted in the air, it is just like transmitting it through coax (different modulation and encoding schemes are used of course). You are confusing the literature's local only statements, which are meant to say that you are not talking directly to the cable company head end with MoCA (even though there is a physical connection of coax cables).


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