# New Tivo Price Plans - No More Lifetime + Responses to Summary



## lajohn27

New Bundled Offering, Flexible Pricing and Service Commitments Will Simplify Offering for Consumers

Mar 08, 2006 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), today announced new, simplified pricing plans that will make it easier for consumers to add TiVo to their home entertainment experience. For the first-time ever, through TiVo's direct sales channel, customers will be able to bundle together the purchase of their TiVo(R) 80-hour Series2(R) box and service at an all-in-one price, based on a one-, two-, or three-year commitment. There will be no separate price for the TiVo unit and TiVo(R) service. The specific bundle prices that will be available at www.tivo.com or by calling 1-877-BUY-TIVO are:

* The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
month or $224 prepaid
* The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
month or $369 prepaid
* The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
month or $469 prepaid

TiVo developed these new pricing plans after completing market research among new and existing TiVo subscribers and by conducting extensive testing of the pricing options with randomized group of consumers in the marketplace. The results of the research were overwhelmingly favorable to the bundling together of the TiVo unit and TiVo service. As is the case with subscribing to the TiVo service today, an early cancellation fee will apply if service is terminated prior to the end of the chosen period. In the case of prepaid subscriptions, no refund will be made upon early termination.

"Over the past several months, we have done extensive research on our pricing strategy and distribution model with a focus on finding the simplest and most efficient way to increase sales and drive penetration of the TiVo service among consumers," said Tom Rogers, CEO of TiVo. "After extensive testing and evaluation of various pricing and packaging approaches, we will launch a subscription option that combines the sale of the TiVo service together with the TiVo box. This is great for TiVo subscribers who will now have the ability to get TiVo service with no upfront hardware costs."

As part of the announcement, TiVo is also announcing an update to its service-only options, providing consumers that purchase a TiVo unit at a retail outlet with the option to pre-pay for one-, two-, or three-years of TiVo service. The product lifetime service option will be eliminated next week. With the ability to pre-pay for TiVo service, TiVo is standing by its efforts to deliver choice to its customers and continuing to spread the "TiVo, TV Your Way" message.

"We are committed to providing our customers a great value for their dollar and enhancing our ability to add subscribers through more flexible pricing options," said Mr. Rogers.

The changes to the pricing structure and service-only options will launch next week. The changes will not affect TiVo's current base of subscriptions.


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## dylanemcgregor

It might be a little quick to proclaim the death of lifetime service...

at least I hope it is, as I bought a refurbed box a week ago and am waiting for it to arrive so that I can activate lifetime, which is specifically allowed in the terms still up on TiVo's webpage.


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## lajohn27

From the press release.. "The product lifetime service option will be eliminated next week."


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## Hew

"Fourth Quarter Highlights

TiVo announces pricing change

Concurrent with this earnings release, TiVo announced new, simplified pricing structures that make it easier for consumers to add TiVo to their home entertainment options. TiVo developed the new pricing structure after completing several months of market research among new and existing TiVo subscriptions and extensively testing the pricing options in the marketplace.

For the first-time ever, through TiVo's direct sales channel, customers will be able to bundle together the purchase of their TiVo 80-hour Series2 box and TiVo service at an all-in-one price, based on a one-, two- or three year commitment at $19.95 a month or $224 prepaid, $18.95 a month or $369 prepaid, and $16.95 a month or $469 prepaid, respectively. The changes to the pricing structure will launch next week and will not affect TiVo's current subscription base.

As part of the announcement, TiVo is also announcing an update to its service-only options, providing consumers that purchase a TiVo unit at a retail outlet with the option to purchase their TiVo service based on one-, two- or three-year commitments upfront. The lifetime service agreement option will be eliminated."


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## Aflat

If they get rid of lifetime, then I just bought my last Tivo box ever. I'll be moving to a homebrew once my Tivo doesn't do all the stuff I want it to.


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## dylanemcgregor

lajohn27 said:


> From the press release.. "The product lifetime service option will be eliminated next week."


Yikes! Sorry, I read through the press release quickly twice, and missed that line both times. Damn, that sucks! No S3 for me it looks like.


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## peteypete

Can existing subscribers still lifetime boxes that they currently own?


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## Hew

So they have basically increased monhly service. After this week you won't be able to buy a box and then the service @ 12.95. You must buy box with service at either 17 bucks per month for 3 years or 20 bucks a month for a year. 
(Correction, you can still buy a box and service seperatly at the same price, if any mod wants to delete this message please go ahead and do so. I jumped to conclusions. : P)
PS.

What about the 40 hour unit? Has it been discontinued, they are only offering it for the 80 hour.


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## Mavrick22

peteypete said:


> Can existing subscribers still lifetime boxes that they currently own?


Probably not


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## dgh

I was once planning to get an S3. Oh well. It's been a good 6 years plus however long ye olde S1 holds together. It looks like the S3 is going to be TiVo's Beta ED.


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## ZeoTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> * The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
> month or $224 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
> month or $369 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
> month or $469 prepaid
> 
> The changes to the pricing structure and service-only options will launch next week. The changes will not affect TiVo's current base of subscriptions.


so does this mean I could not lifetime subscibe a TiVo DVR I already own ?

math time
6.95 * 12 months = 83.40

a person who already owns a TiVo would have no incentive to do this on a second or more TiVo.


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## lajohn27

Lifetime service is available for purchase for 7 days. So, you got a few days to get any boxes you have now covered under lifetime I'd guess.

Service only options will persist. So you can still buy the box at retail and pay monthly. And while the press release isn't exact, my guess is that the service only rate hasn't changed.

And lastly, the press release states that none of this impacts current subscribed boxes.


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## juststained

Ive been telling folks Lifetime was leaving soon.... 


Oh and Yes, any current Lifetimes are fine.


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## dsb411

What about the multi tivo discount? Is that dead too?


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## lajohn27

I must say I have to laugh at the folks in this thread who proclaim they'll change to another DVR.

I assure you that a few days with a Motorola DVR running the crappy cableco DVR software and 12.95 a month will look like a bargain.


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## headroll

Aflat said:


> If they get rid of lifetime, then I just bought my last Tivo box ever. I'll be moving to a homebrew once my Tivo doesn't do all the stuff I want it to.


Unfortunately, I agree (about price, not features). I currently own 5 TiVos, 4 with lifetime (one without is used by the Nanny who will only be around another year or so) and would be real apprehensive to add another (new) box to the mix if I couldn't get the cost out the door up-front.

This said ... I really want an S3.

-Roll


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## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> I must say I have to laugh at the folks in this thread who proclaim they'll change to another DVR.
> 
> I assure you that a few days with a Motorola DVR running the crappy cableco DVR software and 12.95 a month will look like a bargain.


Actually, my Moxi box is now cheaper per month than the new TiVos. I'm not sure how they plan on selling single tuner TiVos at this price point. But I'm sure they have investigated the price point so they know what they are doing. Btw, my Moxi box is not crappy.


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## juststained

The 40 hour boxes are gone once the refurb units on the Tivo site and any ones remaining in stores are sold out.

and thats the gist!


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## rainwater

juststained said:


> The 40 hour boxes are gone once the refurb units on the Tivo site and any ones remaining in stores are sold out.
> 
> and thats the gist!


Well, the 80 hour is a much better TiVo for new users anyways. The 40 always seemed to small a hard drive for the average family.


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## xnevergiveinx

i just called tivo, because i ordered the refurbed box yesterday. they will be getting rid of lifetime subs on the 18th. 
i was worried that i wouldn't get my tivo box in time before they get rid of lifetime, and when i called to get my lifetime sub, they would say i couldn't get one.

the cool guy on the phone said that i can call and get my lifetime sub no problem if i do it before the 18th. if i call after the 18th, they just need to get approval from a supervisor. he said that 30 days after the 18th is the grace period for all the people that bought series 2 refurb boxes to get lifetime subs.
that made me feel so much better.

this is awesome news for anyone who currently has a lifetime sub on a tivo, because they will be worth more when selling on ebay!

i wonder if the second tivo i have will still be $6.95 a month?


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## headroll

lajohn27 said:


> I must say I have to laugh at the folks in this thread who proclaim they'll change to another DVR.
> 
> I assure you that a few days with a Motorola DVR running the crappy cableco DVR software and 12.95 a month will look like a bargain.


But for some of us ... this would be 12.95 X N boxes (or whatever fraction available for MSD).

I agree with you that TiVO DVR is superior, but this just leaves the consumer with less options [ and more costs ].

It is my hope though that along with this new pricing comes the promise to release new hardware more regularly to allow us to upgrade to better equipment when our original 'contract' expires.

Resale rates of boxes with lifetime currently may go up though.

-Roll


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## BigJimOutlaw

Any ideas how the new pricing structure impacts warranty? I mean, if it's basically a lease-to-own model then they should be willing to transfer the agreement to a new box if one breaks within the service period, no?

What happens after the service commitment expires?

What happens to multiple box pricing?


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## RARamaker

lajohn27 said:


> * The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
> month or $224 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
> month or $369 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
> month or $469 prepaid


My only problem with this pricing scheme is that $20 a month is about what I was willing to pay an S3. That's already twice the price of a Comcast DVR with no commitment.

Russ


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## HogarthNH

"Over the past several months, we have done extensive amounts of peyote, while trying to find the simplest and most efficient way to increase sales and drive penetration of the TiVo service among consumers," said *Parody* Tom Rogers, CEO of TiVo. "After extensive testing and evaluation of various pricing and packaging approaches, we have decided to increase the monthly price point even more to drive our potential customers even faster towards cable boxes."


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## timr_42

peteypete said:


> Can existing subscribers still lifetime boxes that they currently own?


I would guess you can before next week.


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## jimmymac

Well, this is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. Once the current box dies, no more Tivo for me. I already let my 2nd box go. 

Personally, I don't do business with companies that lock you into service contracts. Technology changes way too quickly to lock myself into a box for 2-3 years. Also, given that I had 2 different boxes crap out in under a year (one didn't work when I got it), there's no way I'd even lock myself in to anything longer than the warrantee on the box unless you can transfer your commitment to a replacement box.


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## TiVoStephen

peteypete said:


> Can existing subscribers still lifetime boxes that they currently own?


No. Once the Product Lifetime option is no longer available next week, there will not be an option to purchase it, regardless of whether or not the box being activated is new.


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## rainwater

So who in the world is going to purchase a 2nd box with this new deal? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any incentive to pay the bundled prices and buying the box without the bundle will no longer be offered witha rebate/discount. Is TiVo going to clarify the multi-unit discount and how it applies to the bundles?


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## bsvid

Tivo has just priced themselves right out of business. Even with the lifetime they weren't getting enough customers. Now they for sure will go under. They will be announcing another huge net loss soon. It's been fun, Tivo


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## lajohn27

Umm.. how did they price themselves out of business. You can still go buy the box and subscribe at the 12.95 rate.. 

OR.. you can commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and essentially get the rebate up front and pay for the box monthly.

I fail to see how this is a major change really. Other than the dropping of lifetime, which clearly was going to happen anyway.

For hardcore customers like those on this message board, lifetime makes sense. For the vast majority of "Joe Consumer" type customers, a 299$ upfront fee is a non-starter anyway.


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## danieljanderson

Will the new pricing apply to S3?


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## ThomasDrew

When does this all take place again? The guy at the "BUY-TIVO" number knew nothing of this.....Does the pricing apply to S3's? What about the HUMAX boxes?


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## TiVoStephen

xnevergiveinx said:


> i wonder if the second tivo i have will still be $6.95 a month?


Existing subsciptions are not affected, so if you currently pay $6.95 a month, you will continue to pay that for that contract, until you cancel (or until you no longer have a qualifying unit on your account).

Best regards,
Stephen

EDIT: Legal made me add the parenthetical. My bad.


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## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> Umm.. how did they price themselves out of business. You can still go buy the box and subscribe at the 12.95 rate..
> 
> OR.. you can commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and essentially get the rebate up front and pay for the box monthly.
> 
> I fail to see how this is a major change really. Other than the dropping of lifetime, which clearly was going to happen anyway.
> 
> For hardcore customers like those on this message board, lifetime makes sense. For most customers, a 299$ upfront fee is a non-starter.


Well, you say you can still subscribe for $12.95 (do we know that you can do that?), but the issue will be to do that you have to buy the box at full price. You can bet there will be no discounts for these boxes now. So you aren't going to get a 80 hour TiVo for $100. So to get the $12.95, you will be required to pay a rather large up front free. Of course for people that bought their TiVo's a long time ago, this will be like going back in time.


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## danieljanderson

Maybe offer Lifetime as a Reward?????


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## Billy66

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Existing subsciptions are not affected, so if you currently pay $6.95 a month, you will continue to pay that for that contract, until you cancel.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


Between the lines does this mean there will be no 2nd box discount going forward?


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## TiVoPony

Billy66 said:


> Between the lines does this mean there will be no 2nd box discount going forward?


There is no multi-service discount going forward. You pick the service plan you want (with the corresponding annual committment) for each box you subscribe.

(Existing boxes at $6.95 are not effected)

EDIT: Need to clarify here...the MSD is not applicable for the new pricing packages announced today.

If you purchase the box yourself in retail, or have purchased it through tivo.com prior to March 13, 2006, you can get the MSD if it's your second, third, fourth DVR (there's a cap on the number, not sure what it is at the moment).

Pony


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## headroll

ThomasDrew said:


> When does this all take place again? The guy at the "BUY-TIVO" number knew nothing of this.....Does the pricing apply to S3's? What about the HUMAX boxes?


.. i don't see how it could. I also don't see how TiVo will now be able to offer varied models of boxes anymore unless each model has its own pricing structure.

Possibly this is the 'base' TiVo which you get for 'free' with commitment and higher end TiVos (such as the S3) are purchased at this cost PLUS an additional up-front hardware charge.

-Roll


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## DrStrange

Wow. I've got no problem with Tivo adding plans like these as options, but to throw away the plans they've been offering and discarding lifetime and the multi-box discount is just nuts. It's pretty much the complete opposite of "standing by its efforts to deliver choice to its customers".

The Verizon-only non-WAP cell phone deal only made me wonder if decisions at Tivo were being made by a crazy person. This pretty much eliminates the wondering.


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## lajohn27

Pony:

Is it possible to get the MSD for the next seven days? IE: To get in under the wire?

And does the service only price of 12.95 still exist?

J


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## wendo

Very disappointed that lifetime subscriptions will be ending. I was looking forward to buying a S3 with lifetime.

So much for that...


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## Sagz

I agree that TiVo needs to figure out a way to get units into the hands of more customers, but I think this new pricing is actually going to have the opposite effect. Instead of simplifying things for the consumer, the pricing plans seem odd and complicated. Plus, getting rid of lifetime subscriptions is going to hurt long-time, loyal customers of TiVo who already have several boxes, because it doesn't really give them incentive to get new boxes and paying such a high monthly fee.

I'm dissapointed in the pricing, but I hope TiVo can figure things out and ACTUALLY do whats best for us, and other consumers.


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## lajohn27

I suspect that in order to continue to offer Lifetime as a viable option - the cost of lifetime would have had to increase to the point where it made little sense. (ie: 399$)

And - as noted earlier in this thread - this will likely increase the value of boxes with lifetime on the aftermarket.


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## durvivor

Ok, so I've been terrified of the $600 to $1000 S3 coming in the fall. Thats a lot of money to add the $300 lifetime too.

But, now I guess I won't have to pay for the S3... So, what are we talking about $25 a month and TiVo sends a brand spaking new S3 to your home?

Or, will we have a DirecTV style "lease upgrade fee" So, I'll get to still pay $500 for the S3 and $25 a month?


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## TiVoStephen

lajohn27 said:


> Is it possible to get the MSD for the next seven days? IE: To get in under the wire?


You don't have to act quickly for MSD -- it will not be going away.

As for Lifetime: Absolutely, you can get in under the wire if you act quickly -- before the pricing goes into effect next week.

You will have at least seven days from today -- so Lifetime will still be available on Wednesday, March 15. It will no longer be available some time next week after that.



> And does the service only price of 12.95 still exist?


Yes. Even after the pricing changes take effect next week, you will be able to purchase monthly service for $12.95 with a one-year subscription, just as you can today.

EDIT: Changed my answers to be more specific.

EDIT: Duh, I was answering for Lifetime but lajohn27 asked about MSD. No wonder there was confusion.


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## lajohn27

And that is what I love about this forum - direct answers and usually in a very timely 
fashion. 

I'm intrigued by "more details later on" but I know that means you can't comment.

Thanks Stephen.


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## rainwater

I'm confused as to why they announced a new pricing structure, but can't release the details of the service-only pricing. If this is going into effect in a week's time, you would think it would have to be announced soon.


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## Billy66

If it were going down you'd think they would say.....


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## headroll

Not sure if this is mentioned above but ...

Are these 'contracts' connected to the box? With lifetime, if your unit died, the lifetime went with it.

If Joe Consumer buys a 3 year contract and the box dies some short time after the 'hardware' warranty has ended will he be forced to pay a continued monthly fee?

According to the TiVo Blog:
The. Box. Is. Included. At. No. Extra. Cost.

-Roll


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## lajohn27

Service only pricing may NOT be going into effect at the same time.


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## MarkSFCA

I bought 2 new TiVos as a gift for the holidays. Unfortunately, neither one of them have activated their accounts yet (go figure, you give someone a gift and they don't see the value in it right away).

What happens when they do activate it? What will their monthly plan? I'm confused.

Also, what happens after the 1 year, 2 year or 3 year plans end? Does the monthy price change or remain the same? This type of detail is not specified in the news release.


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## calitivo

TiVoPony said:


> There is no multi-service discount going forward. You pick the service plan you want (with the corresponding annual committment) for each box you subscribe.
> 
> (Existing boxes at $6.95 are not effected)
> 
> Pony


Three red Tivo thumbs down on this. The day after multi-service discount was announced, I bought and activated another Tivo. Then when my original lifetime box died, I bought another to replace it solely because I'd only be paying $6.95.

Maybe there is some logic in here we aren't seeing just yet. Maybe buying S3 under a subscription model is better, but won't everyone want to upgrade its capacity, which would screw up the warranty in case of a problem.


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## TiVoPony

lajohn27 said:


> Pony:
> 
> Is it possible to get the MSD for the next seven days? IE: To get in under the wire?
> 
> And does the service only price of 12.95 still exist?
> 
> J


Stephen is absolutely correct about being able to get MSD for the next few days. But once the new pricing goes into effect, that option will no longer be available for boxes purchased under the new pricing plans.

And yes, the $12.95/mo with a one year committment option will still be available for those customer who purchase the box themselves after 3/13/2006.

Pony

(edited to reflect that the MSD option will not be available for boxes activated via the new pricing plans)


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## headroll

MarkSFCA said:


> I bought 2 new TiVos as a gift for the holidays. Unfortunately, neither one of them have activated their accounts yet (go figure, you give someone a gift and they don't see the value in it right away).
> 
> What happens when they do activate it? What will their monthly plan? I'm confused.
> 
> Also, what happens after the 1 year, 2 year or 3 year plans end? Does the monthy price change or remain the same? This type of detail is not specified in the news release.


I suppose it would convert to the unnannounced (as of yet) 'service-only' price. Which will probably have incentives for lengthy contract pre-pays.

-Roll


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## lajohn27

If they activate in the next 7 days, they can activate the current service only pricing.

At some point soon - new service only pricing will come into effect. If they don't activate by that point - they'll pay the new service only pricing.


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## astroglide

i think eliminating the lifetime subs is a great idea

(if tivo's goal is to drive away its most loyal, core customers)


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## TiVoPony

headroll said:


> I suppose it would convert to the unnannounced (as of yet) 'service-only' price. Which will probably have incentives for lengthy contract pre-pays.
> 
> -Roll


No, it continues at the price you originally signed up for. If, at the end of your original contract, you'd rather have a lower price, you'd choose one of the lower price options (with the corresponding annual committment).

Pony


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## samo

DrStrange said:


> Wow. I've got no problem with Tivo adding plans like these as options, but to throw away the plans they've been offering and discarding lifetime and the multi-box discount is just nuts. It's pretty much the complete opposite of "standing by its efforts to deliver choice to its customers".
> 
> The Verizon-only non-WAP cell phone deal only made me wonder if decisions at Tivo were being made by a crazy person. This pretty much eliminates the wondering.


Hey Dr. As time goes by our views on TiVo marketing and business model keep converging.  Can't agree with you more. Almost 30% drop in net SA subs for a quarter considering that TiVo's were almost given away after rebate could tell somebody with even half a brain that mandatory 1 year commitment doesn't work. Now it appears that TiVo wants to make sure that nobody gets a new TiVo. Eliminating lifetime may drive price of lifetime box on e-bay up for a while, but it sure looks like lifetime service doesn't mean lifetime of the box anymore - it means lifetime of TiVo inc.


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## TiVoPony

lajohn27 said:


> If they activate in the next 7 days, they can activate the current service only pricing.
> 
> At some point soon - new service only pricing will come into effect. If they don't activate by that point - they'll pay the new service only pricing.


lajohn27 - "The next seven days" is a misnomer. When the new pricing options go into effect next week the old pricing plans go away. Just a point of clarification.

Pony


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## bsvid

I hope you're right, but most buy the lifetime because of the value of it. This boils down to a significant price [/I]increase_ for a company that is struggling to stay afloat, and could not stay afloat with the more attractive lifetime pricing that they are now abandoning. I do not blame Tivo every company needs to make money. It is too bad they couldn't get enough subscribers with the current offering because I feel that the new pricing will get them even fewer subscribers._


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## DrStrange

Sagz said:


> Instead of simplifying things for the consumer, the pricing plans seem odd and complicated.


That's what I thought.
Previous options:
$??? for box, whatever it says on the shelf (consumer are already familiar with the exchange-money-for-goods concept, so that part certainly isn't complicated)
12.95/mo or
$299 lifetime or
$6.95/mo (second unit)

New "simplified" options
$19.95/mo, 1 year commitment or
$224 prepaid, 1 year commitment or
$18.95/mo, 2 year commitment or
$369 prepaid, 2 year commitment or
$16.95/mo, 3 year commitment or
$469 prepaid, 3 year commitment
then
$??? after commitment period
And whatever terms are for other sizes and models, unless those are being eliminated as part of Tivos "commitment to choice". How are Best Buy drones supposed to hold that in their heads?

Simplified. Uh-huh.


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## lajohn27

Resubbing a TIVO *does* still involve a one year commitment.


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## HogarthNH

:down: :down: :down:


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## lajohn27

But you can still buy the darned box at retail. These prices are only for boxes acquired at www.tivo.com or by calling 1-877-BUY TIVO (or whatever the number is..)

And nothing in any of this says that for those buying retail.. rebates may NOT be offered at some point.


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## danieljanderson

astroglide said:


> i think eliminating the lifetime subs is a great idea
> 
> (if tivo's goal is to drive away its most loyal, core customers)


I'm really suprised that so many are upset that the Lifetime option is leaving. Did you really think it was going to stay around.


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## mbalgeman

lajohn27 said:


> But you can still buy the darned box at retail. These prices are only for boxes acquired at www.tivo.com or by calling 1-877-BUY TIVO (or whatever the number is..)
> 
> And nothing in any of this says that for those buying retail.. rebates may NOT be offered at some point.


From the annoucement:
As part of the announcement, TiVo is also announcing an update to its service-only options, providing consumers that purchase a TiVo unit at a retail outlet with the option to pre-pay for one-, two-, or three-years of TiVo service.


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## lajohn27

danieljanderson said:


> I'm really suprised that so many are upset that the Lifetime option is leaving. Did you really think it was going to stay around.


Yeah.. I was surprised it was offered as long as it was. And hey.. it still could be offered as a TIVO Reward.. ?


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## SullyND

I'm hoping there will be an "AH-HA!" Moment. I have faith that there will be. But to me, this whole idea seems aweful. It makes it much more difficult for me, as a TiVo user, to recommend it to a friend. "Well, I pay only $12.95/mo, but that's because I bought my box, you may have to pay $17, $19, or $20 a month, based on how long you decide to buy into. You could also buy a box, but I don't know what the current cost of that is, and then you would only pay $12.95 a month, but you would still have to commit for a year anyway. I'm only paying $6.95 for my second box, but for you it would be either $17, $19, or $20 for a second box. " Not likely to happen. I love my TiVo, but now I fear for when it dies, as I will likely be looking elsewhere.


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## lajohn27

mbalgeman said:


> From the annoucement:
> As part of the announcement, TiVo is also announcing an update to its service-only options, providing consumers that purchase a TiVo unit at a retail outlet with the option to pre-pay for one-, two-, or three-years of TiVo service.


The Pre-Pay is an OPTION: You can also still pay 12.95 a month. Per the post from Pony earlier in this thread.


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## TiVoPony

bsvid said:


> It is too bad they couldn't get enough subscribers with the current offering because I feel that the new pricing will get them even fewer subscribers.


bsvid,

The results of all of the pricing trials we've conducted during the past six months indicate this is a popular and effective way to position the hardware and service. We wouldn't be implementing these changes otherwise.

Cheers,
Pony


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## smark

This is worse than a cell phone.


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## mbalgeman

SullyND said:


> I'm hoping there will be an "AH-HA!" Moment.


Personally, I'm hoping that the AH-HA moment is when they announce that the service-only option has been reduced to $10-ish a month, instead of the current $13. I'm DEFINATELY not holding my breath though. Especially because you are paying $7 a month extra for the first year in order to "buy" it, which would be $91 which is about $21 more than getting that same TiVo for $70 after rebate now.


----------



## ducker

Really. . .??

If this was your pricing structure 1 month ago, I would of NEVER of been a Tivo subscriber. I would of simply built my own DVR/ or went with Comcast.

Currently a lifetime member and glad he got in at the end of Feb.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TiVoPony said:


> No, it continues at the price you originally signed up for. If, at the end of your original contract, you'd rather have a lower price, you'd choose one of the lower price options (with the corresponding annual committment).
> 
> Pony


Will the $13/mo-1yr option be available, or will the bottom price be $19? Cause at that point the hardware should essentially be paid for...


----------



## bmgoodman

:down: :down: :down:

The only thing I can hope is that the deal with Comcast ends up with monthly fees closer to $10. Man, once you start getting up closer to $20, interest really drops.

How will this work with S3 boxes? If they really should go for $500-$1000, how will they sell them under this new structure? Frankly, Tivo in my mind has introduced *more* confusion, not less! Have they even announced what the box replacement cost will be if the Tivo breaks during the commitment period? I guess like a cell phone, you'll pay the earth for a replacement.

Well, I think the good ship Tivo will have to sail the rough waters of competition without me aboard. Make no mistake, I'm not doing anything drastic with my current units, but unless something changes I am *done* recommending Tivo to anyone and I am unloading my stock. Tivo, Inc. has become a rudderless ship.


----------



## smark

mbalgeman said:


> Personally, I'm hoping that the AH-HA moment is when they announce that the service-only option has been reduced to $10-ish a month, instead of the current $13. I'm DEFINATELY not holding my breath though. Especially because you are paying $7 a month extra for the first year in order to "buy" it, which would be $91 which is about $21 more than getting that same TiVo for $70 after rebate now.


Indeed as this will effectively kill any ability to eBay your Tivos.

Minus lifetime that is.


----------



## Turtleboy

I wonder how well the Best Buy drones will be able to actually explain this to people.


----------



## smark

Turtleboy said:


> I wonder how well the Best Buy drones will be able to actually explain this to people.


They will point to the Monster cables and tell you how it will lower your price.


----------



## loganizzi

With the expected S3 rollout I've been trying to figure out if I'm going to go the route of HD sooner than later. This announcement has made the decision for me. It's going to be later, and whenever I do choose to move over to HD, it definitely won't be with TiVo. 

The idea of locking into a technology for a period of a year or more is something I won't consider. Technology changes much to frequently, and I'm not ready to re-invest in a company like TiVo who is facing way too much competitition from cable companies with much more capital and resources on hand to take DVR's to the next level. 

My next DVR will most likely be provided by my cable company or a build your own variety.


----------



## lajohn27

Turtleboy said:


> I wonder how well the Best Buy drones will be able to actually explain this to people.


For retail channel customers it's a different price mix. They aren't explaining this price structure. This price structure is for TIVOs purchased from TIVO.com or the 800 number only.

In the retail channel.. you pay for the box... then you either pay 12.95 a month or you can pre-pay 1,2 or 3 years with a discount going up for each year (I would guess since this part hasn't been announced yet..)

Not that hard to grasp really.

As for technology changing too fast to commit.. the S2 platform has proven very useful over it's life time.. of what - four YEARS? And the S1 platform lasted 3 years..

As for using a cableco DVR - they are a waste of time from what I've seen so far. Both the Scientific Atlanta and the Motorola boxes .. the hardware is fine.. but the software and user interface are horrible.

On the Motorola box.. Season pass? Forget it - doesn't work as advertised.

Watching a show a few minutes behind when the recording ends? You'll probably lose the show on a Scientific Atlanta.

Go ahead, switch boxes if you life, but don't count on anything near the reliability of your TIVO in terms of recording the shows you want. My cableco DVR missed so many recordings I finally gave up, and let the TIVO control a STB. Hasn't missed one yet.

And forget about other features like HME etc.


----------



## ducker

How will this effect a lifetime box if the hardware of the box itself fails??? "DVR is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty"

Will that still carry forward?

If a 540-0040 box dies next year due to a hardware malfunction... What would happen???


----------



## davezatz

Does this mean the only box you can buy for the near future is the 80 Hour model? No more burner models?


----------



## cpersson

(Unfortunately) great time to short TiVo's stock.


----------



## astroglide

danieljanderson said:


> I'm really suprised that so many are upset that the Lifetime option is leaving. Did you really think it was going to stay around.


if i told you that i was going to shoot you in a month, and then showed up 30 days later with a gun would you no longer be upset because you saw it coming?

congratulations on your prediction. regardless of its forecasting, as a s2/lifetime owner who was planning on buying an s3/lifetime the moment it came out, i am thoroughly disappointed with this announcement.


----------



## Spire

I have five S1 boxes with five lifetime subscriptions, and I was looking forward to buying several S3 boxes with lifetime subscriptions.

Now that the S3 boxes aren't going to be offered with lifetime subscriptions, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider sticking with TiVo at all.

Ugh.


----------



## juststained

No more burner models and no more 40 hours once current stock is gone.


Only 80's and the dual tuner models we are all waiting for.


----------



## lajohn27

davezatz said:


> Does this mean the only box you can buy for the near future is the 80 Hour model? No more burner models?


Dave - numerous places in this thread - it states that boxes will still be available at retail with different pricing plans. I would presume that means a variety of boxes will be available.

Justained - where'd you get that info?

J


----------



## eric23

Well here in the UK, I've been paying £10/month subscription for a Series 1 box for nearly five years! Yes, I must be crazy. I'm starting to come to that conclusion anyway.

The reason I've been paying a monthly subscription and not a lifetime? UK subscribers have had our hopes kept up by TiVo staff that a Series 2 box would eventually make its way to the UK. Four years later, we're still waiting! So I hadn't moved over to a lifetime, because I didn't want to waste my money on a Series 1 lifetime.

I'm sorry to raise this in this thread, I realise it's slightly off-topic, but it is related.

It seems that TiVo are alienating many subscribers in the US now by getting rid of the lifetime plan. I understand that there are probably reasons for having to turn to an ongoing revenue stream (by getting rid of the lifetime plan). But...

There are a growing number of UK subscribers who are starting to feel alienated. The reason for this, however, is quite different. There are thousands of people in the UK who would jump at the chance to move over to a Series 2 box. Now that HD is being launched in the UK, even more would jump at a Series 3 HD box. But TiVo have abandoned us here in the UK. We don't have any of the amazing software updates you have seen in the US in the last four years. TiVo pays Tribune and Sky to keep us fed with EPG data and supported. TiVo doesn't have an awful lot to do with the UK anymore.

Since TiVoPony and E. Stephen Mack seem to be reading this thread (and it feels that our UK board doesn't get visits from TiVo staff anymore), please can I ask you guys to come over to this thread and let us know for once and for all - ARE TIVO FINISHED WITH THE UK MARKET?


----------



## jjamezz

No Lifetime... then No New Tivo's for me ....nor for those I buy for!

Tivo corp types - please think this over!!


----------



## twassel

I think Tivo is making a huge mistake. And let me see if I understand this: I can pay $12.95 a month, and that includes the box (which I assume Tivo will send me and will replace if it goes bad, like my cable company does with its box), or I can buy my own box at retail, and still pay the same $12.95? Why in God's name would that make sense? If I buy my own box I should at least get a discount on the monthly fee. And no second box discount? Absurd. Even the cable company offers multiple boxes for a couple of dollars a month. I'm glad I have my lifetime service (new subscriber within the last month). I was considering a second box, but not at $12.95 a month.


----------



## lajohn27

twassel - did you even read the first post or any subsequent posts in this thread?

Regardless.. if you get a second box right before next week, you can get the multi service discount on it of 6.95 a month.

J


----------



## gastrof

lajohn27 said:


> From the press release.. "The product lifetime service option will be eliminated next week."


Well, that finishes it for me.

I'll _never_ get a Series 3 now.


----------



## Turtleboy

gastrof said:


> Well, that finishes it for me.
> 
> I'll _never_ get a Series 3 now.


It's not like you ever subscribed (lifetime or otherwise) before. 

(Oy, here comes the nasty PM again).


----------



## davevt98

This idea seems awful!! 

It looks like you wont be able to upgrade their units because it will likely void any warranty and will be forced to pay for box whatever price Tivo puts on it. 

I am currently going to lifetime my boxes since ebay prices will be very high for lifetime boxes once this news is widespread. 

Tivo's price structure has always been a mystery. They keep altering their prices in an attempt to find something that works. I hope this works for them but it does not seem like it.


----------



## Test

man, i hate paying monthly bills...soooooooooo many monthly bills...thats why i got lifetime on all my tivos...

nowadays it seems that every company wants to keep hold of you for eeeeever by locking you into some kind of contract or service agreement that keeps draining your pocket on a monthly basis...now the price has gone up...

how many things do you pay for in a month? think about it, then think about recording your tv shows...how important

BUT

if the S3 is free i'll try it out for a year...maybe


----------



## JYoung

I'm also very disappointed that the Lifetime option is going away.

And looking at the new price structure, it seems to me that it's very similar to Replay's old pricing structure and look how well that went.


----------



## twassel

lajohn27 said:


> twassel - did you even read the first post or any subsequent posts in this thread?
> 
> Regardless.. if you get a second box right before next week, you can get the multi service discount on it of 6.95 a month.
> 
> J


 To lajohn27: yes I read all the posts. What's your point, or don't you have one?


----------



## danieljanderson

twassel said:


> I think Tivo is making a huge mistake. And let me see if I understand this: I can pay $12.95 a month, and that includes the box (which I assume Tivo will send me and will replace if it goes bad, like my cable company does with its box), or I can buy my own box at retail, and still pay the same $12.95? Why in God's name would that make sense? If I buy my own box I should at least get a discount on the monthly fee. And no second box discount? Absurd. Even the cable company offers multiple boxes for a couple of dollars a month. I'm glad I have my lifetime service (new subscriber within the last month). I was considering a second box, but not at $12.95 a month.


You would pay 16.95 and TiVo will send you the box. At 12.95, you need to buy your own.


----------



## MikeMar

What about this situation.

I have 2 tivo's. 1 lifetime, 1 montly (6.95) My girlfriend has 1 tivo on monthly, 1 year commit ends in September. We are going to live together starting in August. Will I be able to add her tivo to mine at 6.95? or will it have to be at 12.95 or more?

Cause we do NOT need 3 tivo's and TiVo will ose 6.95 a month from us, and I highly doubt I will ever buy Tivo again if there is multi discount. 

-Worst move ever (by tivo)


----------



## lajohn27

twassel said:


> To lajohn27: yes I read all the posts. What's your point, or don't you have one?


My point was that you had the pricing completely wrong and the answers to your questions were provided within the posts in this thread.

That's my point.  Are you sure you read it?


----------



## SullyND

twassel said:


> To lajohn27: yes I read all the posts. What's your point, or don't you have one?





twassel said:


> I think Tivo is making a huge mistake. And let me see if I understand this: I can pay $12.95 a month, and that includes the box (which I assume Tivo will send me and will replace if it goes bad, like my cable company does with its box), or I can buy my own box at retail, and still pay the same $12.95?


The first post:



lajohn27 said:


> * The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
> month or $224 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
> month or $369 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
> month or $469 prepaid


So, you buy the box, you pay $12.95/mo with a one year commitment.
You don't buy the box? $19.95/mo/$224 prepaid for a year, $18.95/mo/$369 prepaid for two years, or $16.95/mo/$469 prepaid for three years.


----------



## lajohn27

Thanks Sully.. It's like Twilight Zone Message Board around here lately.

I failed to notice this thread mark TW's first two posts to the forum.


----------



## perry7566

Then why can't you buy a life time gift subsciption on tivo web site today ???


----------



## lajohn27

You haven't been able to buy lifetime on the TIVO website for sometime.... as in months.

You can still get it by calling the 800 # tho apparently. And if you already have a TIVO account, or sign up for one, you can activate lifetime directly thru the manage my account section.

Just checked, it's still there.


----------



## TiVoStephen

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Any ideas how the new pricing structure impacts warranty? I mean, if it's basically a lease-to-own model then they should be willing to transfer the agreement to a new box if one breaks within the service period, no?


I just answered a question about warranty separately, so please forgive me for pointing you here so I can recycle my answer:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3842747&&#post3842747



> What happens after the service commitment expires?


If you take no action, your contract will continue. Basically you'll return to monthly pricing, at whatever the monthly fee is for the period of time that you selected for your contract.

However, after your contract has expired, you can call in and switch to a service-only contract whenever you want.



> What happens to multiple box pricing?


Later today I'm going to post about multiple subscription discounts in a separate thread, since there's been a bit of confusion.


----------



## perry7566

because 

according to Tivo termsand conditions 

1. TiVo service gift subscription values expire 2 years from date of purchase if not activated with TiVo Inc.*


----------



## Gregor

I am not sure I understand the pricing.

$469 gets you a Tivo and 36 months of service, up front, or I pay $16.95 *36 which is $610.20?

So essentially it's a free Tivo and 36 months of service at $13 something, if I pay upfront or $16.95 if I get billed monthly?


----------



## gastrof

twassel said:


> I think Tivo is making a huge mistake. And let me see if I understand this: I can pay $12.95 a month, and that includes the box (which I assume Tivo will send me and will replace if it goes bad, like my cable company does with its box), or I can buy my own box at retail, and still pay the same $12.95? Why in God's name would that make sense?...


You got it wrong.

If you get the box from TiVo and pay _nothing_ for it, your monthly fee will be seven dollars higher. (About $20 per month.)

If I understand right, when you outright BUY your box, for now you'll still be paying the $12.95 price per month, but I wouldn't be surprised if that goes up as well.


----------



## lajohn27

Gregor said:


> I am not sure I understand the pricing.
> 
> $469 gets you a Tivo and 36 months of service, up front, or I pay $16.95 *36 which is $610.20?
> 
> So essentially it's a free Tivo and 36 months of service at $13 something, if I pay upfront or $16.95 if I get billed monthly?


Yes.. there appears to be a healthy discount for paying up front.. Which is fair since they get the use of your money and you don't.


----------



## peepoop

Could I buy a pre-paid Tivo lifetime gift card today and then apply it to a Series 3 when they're available?

Do those gift cards expire? It's illegal to have a gift card or gift certificate expire in the state of California, right?


----------



## MickeS

Wow I didn't even see this thread today. How the hell did that happen?

No more lifetime. :down:
EDIT: Yay, multiple discount still there! :up:
Higher monthly fees. :down:

What exactly are they trying to do here? Price themselves out of the market? Because now they're competing with cable boxes that cost the same, INCLUDING digital cable. Who in their right mind will get a TiVo now?


----------



## Willin

lajohn27 said:


> Yeah.. I was surprised it was offered as long as it was. And hey.. it still could be offered as a TIVO Reward.. ?


I am one referral away from a lifetime sub. I just checked and it is gone from the list of rewards now. Thanks TiVo.


----------



## perry7566

Expiration date does not apply in California, Connecticut, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, or Washington, and where expiration date may be extended by law. Applies in New Hampshire only for gift subscriptions over $100.


----------



## davezatz

It's obvious we have lots of questions and there may be a decent amount of confusion... and this thread is moving very quickly (I can't keep up with lajohn's posts). I suggest Stephen, Pony, or one of their henchmen maybe scan this thread for the major questions (including ones already answered) and put together a FAQ in another thread. I would really APPRECIATE that.


----------



## MikeMar

Problem isn't nessarily convincing people to stay, it's getting NEW customers. I had a co-worker that loved tivo, but wouldn't even pay the extra few bucks to get it over comcast dvr. I would give her shows in ipod format and she loved it, but no way in hell would she get it now.

and the no mutli-discount is horrendous!


----------



## TiVoStephen

rainwater said:


> I'm confused as to why they announced a new pricing structure, but can't release the details of the service-only pricing. If this is going into effect in a week's time, you would think it would have to be announced soon.


Sorry about that -- I just had to do a little checking with the powers that be. I can confirm that existing service-only monthly pricing is not changing next week.

So, go into Best Buy next weekend, pick up a unit, and just like today you can activate it for $12.95 per month with a one-year commitment.

Here's what is changing about service-only pricing:

1. Product Lifetime will no longer be offered after Wednesday next week.

2. Three new prepay options will become available sometime after Wednesday next week, increasing options for consumers who purchase their boxes from retail or who have existing boxes.

What about the Multiple Subscription Discount? It is NOT changing for service-only montly pricing.

So, Multiple Subscription Discount *IS* still available for service-only monthly pricing after next week's changes. What does that mean? That means that if you have an existing box, and then go out to Best Buy next Friday and activate service-only, you will still pay only $6.95 per month on that new contract, just as you do today (for as long as you have another qualifying full-price monthly or Product Lifetime unit in your household).

(The multiple subscription discount is NOT available for prepay bundles or for the new bundled pricing, as you would expect. That's what Pony was referring to earlier.)

EDIT: Clarification


----------



## MikeMar

Maybe i'm confused, but what exactly is 'service only'? Isn't that every box?


----------



## angra

horrible, extremely disappointing. It's their business and I guess they feel that this will make them more money, but it definitely makes a S3 a lot less attractive to me. Oh, well.

very bummed.


----------



## dmk1974

Question...Lifetime service is tied to the BOX, not the subscriber, correct? I have an old Series 1 box with lifetime service that I want to sell. Irregardless of the date I sell it, the lifetime service tied to the box should be able to be transferred to another person's own account, right?


----------



## peteypete

TiVoPony said:


> There is no multi-service discount going forward. You pick the service plan you want (with the corresponding annual committment) for each box you subscribe.
> 
> (Existing boxes at $6.95 are not effected)
> 
> EDIT: Need to clarify here...the MSD is not applicable for the new pricing packages announced today.
> 
> If you purchase the box yourself in retail, or have purchased it through tivo.com prior to March 13, 2006, you can get the MSD if it's your second, third, fourth DVR (there's a cap on the number, not sure what it is at the moment).
> 
> Pony


I suspected this was the case although the PR doesn't state it specifically.



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Absolutely, you can get in under the wire if you act quickly -- before the pricing goes into effect next week (which may or may not be as long as seven days from now).
> 
> You will have at least seven days from today -- so Lifetime will still be available on Wednesday, March 15. It will no longer be available some time next week after that.
> 
> Yes. Even after the pricing changes take effect next week, you will be able to purchase monthly service for $12.95 with a one-year subscription, just as you can today.
> 
> EDIT: Changed my answers to be more specific.


It makes it a hard decision whether or not to go lifetime now on a MR discounted box. I guess it depends on how long you think it will last, and/or if you think a series 3 stand alone will be coming out sometime.

All in all, I think it is kinda crummy going forward to have no lifetime , but kinda necessary for tivo as a company to do. boxes probably last way longer than 3 years.


----------



## aindik

MikeMar said:


> Maybe i'm confused, but what exactly is 'service only'? Isn't that every box?


Every box sold to date, yes. But boxes purchased from Tivo.com after the price changes will not be "service only."

I'm glad to hear the MSD isn't going away for retail-purchased boxes. That made me more angry than lifetime going away. Then again, a retail-purchased box is going to cost a lot more than it did a month ago.


----------



## Spiff

Wow... I need time to think about this before reacting.

I really want a S3 when it comes out. If the $469 price for 3 years is good for a Series3, then I'm good, because I was willing to pay $500 for the unit. For $500 + 3 year's @ MSD (about $250) I can get the unit and an additional 16 months. After that point, I get a new one.

The downside is there is no resale value left to the box at the end of the term.

I really, really love TiVo features and really, really hate my SA Explorer 8300HD DVR. I'll probably bite the bullet and pay it. But I'm not as certain of that as I was a month ago.

I'm assuming this was heavily researched and TiVo can project that for all the talk of "I'll never buy another TiVo" there will be a greater number of people who will sign up under the new pricing structure. I hope that either those projections are right or that TiVo changes pricing back before it's too late.

I also have to decide within the next few days if I'm going to Lifetime my two 240 boxes so they have some resale value later.

There's lots to think about.


----------



## TiVoStephen

MikeMar said:


> Maybe i'm confused, but what exactly is 'service only'? Isn't that every box?


We now have two types of service:

1. Bundled pricing -- the new options announced today that will be available after Wednesday next week, that allow you to get an 80-hr DVR for no upfront fee.

2. Service-only pricing -- basically the same as we have today, where you already have a box (either you previously bought it, or you buy it from retail) and you just want service to go on that box.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Spiff said:


> I'm assuming this was heavily researched and TiVo can project that for all the talk of "I'll never buy another TiVo" there will be a greater number of people who will sign up under the new pricing structure.


Thanks for saying that -- you're absolutely correct -- six months of intense research, including numerous separate pricing trials.

I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):



Tom Rogers said:


> I know some subscribers have responded very warmly to the Product Lifetime option in the past -- they should, it's way too good a deal.


Many here already have stated that they knew Product Lifetime would go away at some point. It made sense to us after testing these options that were VERY well received to make that time now. I'm very sorry for those who are upset, but we tried to give you a lot of new and attractive pricing options to make up for it.

And of course, if you already purchased Product Lifetime, we will of course continue to honor it. And if you haven't purchased Product Lifetime, you have until next Wednesday!

Best regards,
Stephen


----------



## bsvid

I activated my lifetime box just this past saturday, a few days after the Humax I ordered from a major online retailer arrived at my door. I had been studying Tivo for months prior to making my decision. I have to say, the thought of a monthly bill in addition to my standard time warner bill was a reason to forgo it. Don't you understand Tivo, I took the plunge because the lifetime was an option. I never would have been interested in Tivo at all otherwise, my cable company offers a DVR for 4.95 a month and everyone I know has it, not Tivo. But I figured the lifetime sub. was Tivo's plus, and because I am no big fan of cable companies. Now they have no reason for a new customer to get one as the lifetime is gone. I know you need more revenue to stay solvent, but you should have maybe increased the lifetime by 10-20 %, $349 maybe.


----------



## RaGINaR

lajohn27 said:


> Umm.. how did they price themselves out of business. You can still go buy the box and subscribe at the 12.95 rate..
> 
> OR.. you can commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and essentially get the rebate up front and pay for the box monthly.
> 
> I fail to see how this is a major change really. Other than the dropping of lifetime, which clearly was going to happen anyway.
> 
> For hardcore customers like those on this message board, lifetime makes sense. For the vast majority of "Joe Consumer" type customers, a 299$ upfront fee is a non-starter anyway.


So what you're saying is that tivo has basically thrown up its thumb at the market that purchases the majority of their products? Think about it, the majority of us own multiple tivos and will for all intents and purposes continue to purchase tivos. Who here isn't waiting for a S3 so we could tape our HD shows? Now that the cost advantage has swung to the point of it being "cheaper" to own a computer DVR setup, I'll definitely be looking at BeyondTV/MythTV/etc for my "S3".

Sorry Tivo, you're definitely costing yourself the "hardcore" fans that have supported you for so long.


----------



## DrStrange

Ok, so this isn't the disaster I intially made it out to be. Standard monthly and MSDs will still be available. That's not too bad, even if it means the boxes cost more. But I still think dumping lifetime is dumb and will put a crimp in Tivos gift business. And I still completely don't get the Verizon deal.


----------



## TiVoStephen

JYoung said:


> And looking at the new price structure, it seems to me that it's very similar to Replay's old pricing structure and look how well that went.


Ouch! Dude! Not at all.

Replay's pricing structure was zero choice. You HAD to pay lifetime at retail when you bought the box. Their only slogan was "no monthly fees."

This is NOTHING like that. Instead, we are now giving you more choices than ever before (and with my faux slogans included):

1. Bundled pricing with no upfront cost whatsoever, with lower pricing if you choose to commit to 2 or 3 years of service. "No upfront cost!"

2. Bundled pricing with attractive prepay options for 1, 2 or 3 years of service. "No monthly fees!"

3. Service-only pricing at $12.95 per month for a one year commitment, just like today. "Best DVR available, at the same monthly price it's been for nearly five years!"

4. New pre-pay options for 1, 2, or 3 years. "No monthly fees!"


----------



## lajohn27

The hardcore consumers on this board do not constitute the majority of TIVO's customers. Not even close.

We'd all like to think so - I know I would - but realistically that's not the case.

And frankly, with 6 years in the marketplace, we supposedly hard-core customers aren't enough.. they need to broaden their appeal beyond us. Growth sometimes hurts.

J


----------



## RaGINaR

JYoung said:


> I'm also very disappointed that the Lifetime option is going away.
> 
> And looking at the new price structure, it seems to me that it's very similar to Replay's old pricing structure and look how well that went.


OH, but they did research . Obviously it'll be a viable plan!!!

It's funny, I never got an email asking if I'd buy more boxes if they did this. Eh, ce la vie! Apparently the current crop of customers will just go away.

This is bull..


----------



## RaGINaR

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Ouch! Dude! Not at all.
> 
> Replay's pricing structure was zero choice. You HAD to pay lifetime at retail when you bought the box. Their only slogan was "no monthly fees."
> 
> This is NOTHING like that. Instead, we are now giving you more choices than ever before (and with my faux slogans included):
> 
> 1. Bundled pricing with no upfront cost whatsoever, with lower pricing if you choose to commit to 2 or 3 years of service. "No upfront cost!"
> 
> 2. Bundled pricing with attractive prepay options for 1, 2 or 3 years of service. "No monthly fees!"
> 
> 3. Service-only pricing at $12.95 per month for a one year commitment, just like today. "Best DVR available, at the same monthly price it's been for nearly five years!"
> 
> 4. New pre-pay options for 1, 2, or 3 years. "No monthly fees!"


Seriously dude, you have about 1 convert in this thread. The majority of us are not happy with the changes!


----------



## dgh

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Ouch! Dude! Not at all.


I think he means their fourth old pricing scheme? Or was it their their fifth? 



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> This is NOTHING like that. Instead, we are now giving you more choices than ever before (and with my faux slogans included):


Subtract one good pricing scheme, add three bad ones. Yep. More choice than ever!


----------



## lajohn27

Willin said:


> I am one referral away from a lifetime sub. I just checked and it is gone from the list of rewards now. Thanks TiVo.


There was a posting last week in the TIVO REWARDS - HEADS UP thread indicating that Lifetime was leaving the rewards cycle. (As it does from time to time).

Of course, who knows, it may make a return, I would imagine with a higher rewards point value if it does.. But gosh, it'll be all the more meaningful if it does return.

J


----------



## DrStrange

Sorry, but calling any of the new plans "no monthly fees" is a word game. The actual point of "no monthly fees" as Replay used it was that there were no ongoing fees at all. Ongoing, neverending fees are ongoing, neverending fees, whether monthly, annually, or whatever else. The difference between one ongoing fee plan and another is minor compared to the choice between ongoing fees and no ongoing fees. That was the big choice, and Tivo no longer offers it. This whole "now you have to pay us forever, but we give you more ways to do it!" spin just doesn't wash.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

What about the DVD versions?


What are the options for those?


----------



## Stu_Bee

I wonder what the same plans would look like for their upcoming new S3's. It would have to be high enough to cover their HW costs after a one year termination....unless they want people to return them.


----------



## TiVoStephen

headroll said:


> Are these 'contracts' connected to the box? With lifetime, if your unit died, the lifetime went with it.


Good question.

Today, if you sign up for monthly service, the box is NOT tied to the contract (unlike Product Lifetime). You can use Manage My Account to change the TiVo Service Number at any time.

The new pricing plans announced today are exactly the same. They are NOT tied to the box. You can change to a different box at any time. That includes different types of hardware. That also includes the Series3.

(My sentence there does not disclose ANYTHING about the pricing plans for the Series3 when it launches later this year. The bundled pricing for Series3 has not been announced.)


----------



## Test

will S3 tivos fall under the free up front/bundle plan?


----------



## Prozium

With the exception of no more lifetime service option, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The $12.95/$6.95-a month option is still there along with a couple ways to get a tivo with no upfront cost in exchange for a slightly higher monthly fee. I think with this new plan I may actuallly be able to afford a series3 when it's first released. Just sign up for a 3 year commitment and pay (hopefully) $25-30/month for service and the box.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Test said:


> will S3 tivos fall under the free up front/bundle plan?


Not announced, and I cannot comment. Sorry.


----------



## jimmymac

Prozium said:


> With the exception of no more lifetime service option, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The $12.95/$6.95-a month option is still there along with a couple ways to get a tivo with no upfront cost in exchange for a slightly higher monthly fee. I think with this new plan I may actuallly be able to afford a series3 when it's first released. Just sign up for a 3 year commitment and pay (hopefully) $25-30/month for service and the box.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but from what I understand there is no more $6.95 additional Tivo option unless you currently are on that. Add another box after next week and it's going to cost you a lot more than what it would right now.


----------



## TiVoStephen

MediaLivingRoom said:


> What about the DVD versions? What are the options for those?


Service-only pricing is still available if you pick up one of these units at a retailer like Best Buy (or already have one that isn't subscribed). We haven't announced a bundled price for these types of units yet.


----------



## Test

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Not announced, and I cannot comment. Sorry.


thaaaaaaank you...

i figure if these are the price plans for the s3 (free box...1 year bundle/contract) not bad...

but i wouldnt do that for a series 2 (signing a 3 year contract) when a new series 3 is on the horizon...really, i wouldnt by a series 2 with lifetime either with the series 3 coming...so i dont know what im saying...i have my tivos with lifetime so im good to go (till one goes down) dun dun duuuuuun

thanks for the quickest response i ever got on this message board


----------



## HannahWCU

OK I have read this entire thread and I think I get it.  

But I have a couple of questions that I haven't seen brought up (I apologize in advance if I missed this in the tread somewhere):

If I was to purchase a Tivo with the new "Bundled" pricing, say the $19.95 per month option, ("free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months), at the end of the contract (in this case 12 months), could I then change my contract to a "service only" contract and now only pay $12.95 per month. Or does it continue at $19.95, $18.95 or $16.95, depending on the original contract?

Also, if I had two Tivo purchased under the new "bundled" pricing structure and they both fulfilled their contracts (both were purchased with the same "free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months as above). Would one of them now qualify for the MSD of $6.95/month.


I personally like the new pricing structure, IF, I can change to the $12.95 at the end of my contract. My second Tivo was basically purchased this way. It is a 40 hour refurbished unit that I got for "free" as long as I purchased a 12 month subscription upfront. Which will actually last 23 months since it gets the $6.95 MSD. So I "bundled" my Tivo for a contract of $6.95/month for 23 months paid upfront. Just my $0.02


----------



## gastrof

Test said:


> man, i hate paying monthly bills...soooooooooo many monthly bills...thats why i got lifetime on all my tivos...


My feelings are similar.

That's why I like my series 1 boxes being able to work unsubbed.

I figured when the series 3s came out I'd get one and bite the bullet and go for Lifetime. It'd be the closest I could get to what I have now.

Now, seems that's not gonna happen.

Disappointing, to say the least.


----------



## TiVoStephen

jimmymac said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but from what I understand there is no more $6.95 additional Tivo option unless you currently are on that. Add another box after next week and it's going to cost you a lot more than what it would right now.


Wrong. Sorry if we were unclear. After next week, go to retail, pick up a new box, add it to your existing account, pay $6.95 for the duration of the contract (as long as you have a qualifying unit on your account). Just like today.

To summarize, here's what's changing next week:

* A lot of new pricing options become available.

* Product Lifetime will no longer be available to new subscriptions after next week.


----------



## lajohn27

jimmymac said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but from what I understand there is no more $6.95 additional Tivo option unless you currently are on that. Add another box after next week and it's going to cost you a lot more than what it would right now.


Jimmy:

There was some confusion earlier in the thread. That 6.95 Multi Service discount does NOT apply to the new bundled hardware & service packages.

However, for people who already have a TIVO, adding a TIVO will continue to be 6.95 a month if you just pick it up at retail; or already have it; or buy it on E-Bay or from your cousin or whatever.

J


----------



## vertigo235

This sucks, I had an on S1 Box that I had canceled because I'm all DTiVo now, we decided to set it up for the In-Laws to try out, and when I "reactivated it" I totaly didn't realize I was agreeing to a 1 year commitment! I just realized this when I was reading this thread.

I sure hope they like it for a year, otherwise I've been successfully shafted by TiVo, I can't believe a 1 year commitment would aply to a re-activation.

Boy do I feel stupid.


----------



## gastrof

HannahWCU said:


> OK I have read this entire thread and I think I get it.
> 
> But I have a couple of questions that I haven't seen brought up (I apologize in advance if I missed this in the tread somewhere):
> 
> If I was to purchase a Tivo with the new "Bundled" pricing, say the $19.95 per month option, ("free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months), at the end of the contract (in this case 12 months), could I then change my contract to a "service only" contract and now only pay $12.95 per month. Or does it continue at $19.95, $18.95 or $16.95, depending on the original contract?
> 
> Also, if I had two Tivo purchased under the new "bundled" pricing structure and they both fulfilled their contracts (both were purchased with the same "free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months as above). Would one of them now qualify for the MSD of $6.95/month.
> 
> I personally like the new pricing structure, IF, I can change to the $12.95 at the end of my contract. My second Tivo was basically purchased this way. It is a 40 hour refurbished unit that I got for "free" as long as I purchased a 12 month subscription upfront. Which will actually last 23 months since it gets the $6.95 MSD. So I "bundled" my Tivo for a contract of $6.95/month for 23 months paid upfront. Just my $0.02


My guess is that if you get the $20 per month setup, since the TiVo is "free", you never actually buy it.

When your contract is over, you likely won't be able to switch to a "service only" plan, because you don't own a TiVo.

You'd have to continue with another "free TiVo" plan, or give the machine back to them.

Maybe they'd let you buy the TiVo for a discount (hey...it's used), and THEN let you switch to a "service only" plan?


----------



## davezatz

This seems confusing... will an average consumer new to TiVo see all these pricing options (at least 4 as far as a I can tell, and maybe rebates too), throw their hands in the air, and decide to go the simple route of paying the cable company 10 bucks a month?


----------



## Spiff

gastrof said:


> My guess is that if you get the $20 per month setup, since the TiVo is "free", you never actually buy it.
> 
> When your contract is over, you likely won't be able to switch to a "service only" plan, because you don't own a TiVo.
> 
> You'd have to continue with another "free TiVo" plan, or give the machine back to them.
> 
> Maybe they'd let you buy the TiVo for a discount (hey...it's used), and THEN let you switch to a "service only" plan?


That's obviously wrong. After the year, you still keep the box, just can't use it unless you convert to monthly service only price.


----------



## gwn21

Well, I'm bummed. I have three TiVos, all with Lifetime Subscription. I was really looking forward to the Series3. But with no Lifetime, it's going to be a hard sell for me. I liked owning what I buy. It will be hard for me to justify spending $XXX amout of money every 3 years, to be on the 3 year contract or even just a monthly fee.

Yeah, Lifetime was "way too good of a deal." But for me, my relationship with TiVo this day forward will be one that I will really need to think about. It sad that there will be no more Lifetime subscriptions.


----------



## TiVoStephen

HannahWCU said:


> If I was to purchase a Tivo with the new "Bundled" pricing, say the $19.95 per month option, ("free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months), at the end of the contract (in this case 12 months), could I then change my contract to a "service only" contract and now only pay $12.95 per month. Or does it continue at $19.95, $18.95 or $16.95, depending on the original contract?


You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us, you'll continue to be billed at the original contract price.



> Also, if I had two Tivo purchased under the new "bundled" pricing structure and they both fulfilled their contracts (both were purchased with the same "free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months as above). Would one of them now qualify for the MSD of $6.95/month.


Yup. Once your twelve months are up, call us, and you can convert one to $12.95, and the other to $6.95.



> I personally like the new pricing structure, IF, I can change to the $12.95 at the end of my contract. My second Tivo was basically purchased this way. It is a 40 hour refurbished unit that I got for "free" as long as I purchased a 12 month subscription upfront. Which will actually last 23 months since it gets the $6.95 MSD. So I "bundled" my Tivo for a contract of $6.95/month for 23 months paid upfront. Just my $0.02


Thanks, glad you liked it! You're not alone. In our numerous testing trials, the response was phenomenal.


----------



## chain777

lajohn27 said:


> New Bundled Offering, Flexible Pricing and Service Commitments Will Simplify Offering for Consumers


Right...


----------



## Spiff

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Wrong. Sorry if we were unclear. After next week, go to retail, pick up a new box, add it to your existing account, pay $6.95 for the duration of the contract (as long as you have a qualifying unit on your account). Just like today.
> 
> To summarize, here's what's changing next week:
> 
> * A lot of new pricing options become available.
> 
> * Product Lifetime will no longer be available to new subscriptions after next week.


Hmm... does this mean that if the $6.95 multi-service discount still is available for service only pricing after one year, I can convert to that?

Say I buy a S2 unit and prepay for a year. I have another TiVo box. After one year I call to switch to service-only. Do I then pay $6.95 or $12.95?

[edit-Never mind... I see you answered that while I was typing. Cool.]


----------



## jimmymac

davezatz said:


> This seems confusing... will an average consumer new to TiVo see all these pricing options (at least 4 as far as a I can tell, and maybe rebates too), throw their hands in the air, and decide to go the simple route of paying the cable company 10 bucks a month?


BINGO.


----------



## dswallow

It will be interesting to see how any upcoming "Series 3" HD standalone unit will be priced and if service pricing will be different for it than non-HD units. And that's all I'd possibly be interested in from TiVo anymore, anyway. So I suppose I should withhold judgment.

However, I do believe the disappearance of a lifetime subscription option is a negative and will likely cause me to review Windows Media Center and other options much more seriously when the time comes.

I do despise the cell phone business model, though. And in practice when I was dealing with contracts would buy my cell phone unlocked and just move my SIM card to it thus staying out of contract requirements with that carrier.

If I buy unsubsidized hardware, I should not have to endure a commitment period for service. Period. That should always be a possibility for someone. And this being an available option should always be attractive to TiVo; If that subscriber stays beyond what would've been the commitment period, they've earned more money and have no subsidizing costs to have worried about at all.

Actually I think I'd just prefer to buy a license to the technology and control everything else myself with no subscription fee. The entire experience I've been through between DirecTV, TiVo, the HD units, the move to MPEG4 and DirecTV's in-house DVR's, TiVo's delayed availability of a HD ATSC standalone... just all has soured me on everybody. I'm gonna go read a book.


----------



## mrmike

I need to find out if

1) My grandfathered lifetime S1 would be transferable to an S3 when they come out
2) If I buy a lifetime sub "gift card" can I hold it for an S3 in the next 2 years before it expires?

If not, I'm afraid TiVo have lost a customer (And I have personally bought 7 TiVos so far as well as a dozen referrals)

Oh yeah, one I just thought of

3) If my lifetime subbed S1s die, will there be any way to have them replaced with equivalent units (I think what I read in this thread says "yes, at some cost to be determined later", but for how long? Will this go away if S3s are all they sell post digital changeover)

All in all, even though this may be a good choice for TiVo the company, I don't feel like they're the company I've supported for so long somehow. It's hard to quantify, but I bet this cuts down on evangelism in a large way.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Spiff said:


> Hmm... does this mean that if the $6.95 multi-service discount still is available for service only pricing after one year, I can convert to that?
> 
> Say I buy a S2 unit and prepay for a year. I have another TiVo box. After one year I call to switch to service-only. Do I then pay $6.95 or $12.95?
> 
> [edit-Never mind... I see you answered that while I was typing. Cool.]


Just to be clear, yes, as long as you have a qualifying unit, when you convert your second unit to a new contract, it will be priced at $6.95 per month.


----------



## Spire

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):
> 
> 
> Tom Rogers said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know some subscribers have responded very warmly to the Product Lifetime option in the past -- they should, it's way too good a deal.
Click to expand...

So increase the price. Even if the increase had to be substantial to make it work for TiVo, I'd probably still pay it.

Why do I feel so strongly about this? I just don't like monthly fees -- and I know that I'm far from alone.


----------



## jimmymac

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us, you'll continue to be billed at the original contract price.


So those people who don't call are going to be basically screwed for extra money each month for the same service? They would have fullfilled the terms of the contract, yet still be billed at a higher rate. Or what does the customer paying the orignal contrat price get that somebody calling and switching to the $12.95 rate doesn't?


----------



## dswallow

Spire said:


> So increase the price. Even if the increase had to be substantial to make it work for TiVo, I'd probably still pay it.
> 
> Why do I feel so strongly about this? I just don't like monthly fees -- and I know that I'm far from alone.


Where it bothers me most is in the realm of gifts. Some people just prefer to give gifts that don't have limited usefulness or cause monthly expenses. Having a lifetime option, even if it were at a higher price than it is today, is just a good idea. Maybe TiVo will do it every Christmas sales season, at least.


----------



## TiVoStephen

mrmike said:


> I need to find out if
> 
> 1) My grandfathered lifetime S1 would be transferable to an S3 when they come out


Absolutely. I already confirmed this in a thread last week.


> 2) If I buy a lifetime sub "gift card" can I hold it for an S3 in the next 2 years before it expires?


Well, we no longer sell Product Lifetime gift subscriptions, and Best Buy also stopped selling them in January. So you can't buy a new one. But if you already had one that was unredeemed, then, yes, you could wait until it was nearly expired, and use it on a Series3 or whatever DVR was available at the time.



> 3) If my lifetime subbed S1s die, will there be any way to have them replaced with equivalent units (I think what I read in this thread says "yes, at some cost to be determined later", but for how long? Will this go away if S3s are all they sell post digital changeover)


If you get your Series1 replaced through an official manufacturer replacement or through evidence of an extended warranty, you can call us to transfer service (or transfer service yourself using Manage My Account). Otherwise, your only option is to get the unit repaired. Remember that Product Lifetime is for the Lifetime of the Product -- if the unit well and truly dies, then your service is also done. In all likelihood you ended up paying far less with Product Lifetime than you would have with monthly service.


> All in all, even though this may be a good choice for TiVo the company, I don't feel like they're the company I've supported for so long somehow. It's hard to quantify, but I bet this cuts down on evangelism in a large way.


I'm sorry you feel that way. As someone who has been here for seven years, it feels like the same company for me. We're no longer a scrappy startup, but we're still scrappy and we have to be a profitable company. Some of the same people criticizing us here in this thread for removing Product Lifetime also ding us in other threads for not being profitable. As Tom said in today's conference call, the new pricing goes a long way to making TiVo a more healthy and successful company.

Personally, I feel evangelism is actually better now -- with more options, it's easier to find one that fits. After next week I can tell someone, "Dude! You don't have TiVo? Go to tivo.com and you can get a brand new 80-hour unit totally FREE for just $16.95 a month!" If that's not a simple evangelism message, I don't know what is. And believe me when I say it has tested extremely well.

Best regards,
Stephen


----------



## SafariKC

jimmymac said:


> So those people who don't call are going to be basically screwed for extra money each month for the same service? They would have fullfilled the terms of the contract, yet still be billed at a higher rate. Or what does the customer paying the orignal contrat price get that somebody calling and switching to the $12.95 rate doesn't?


I suppose you don't own a Cell Phone with a Contract? You pay what you agree to... if you call and change your contract... that's cool.. but if not... you pay what you agree to.

KC


----------



## dswallow

I'd feel more warmly towards TiVo if there was a monthly service fee class that entailed network connection only, thus eliminating the cost to TiVo of any chance of telephone call connection costs, and compensating the customer for TiVo's savings.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

davezatz said:


> This seems confusing... will an average consumer new to TiVo see all these pricing options (at least 4 as far as a I can tell, and maybe rebates too), throw their hands in the air, and decide to go the simple route of paying the cable company 10 bucks a month?


IMO, the more options you make available to the masses, the more confusing it becomes for them. People tend to stay away, and play it safe, rather than choosing the "wrong" option.

Consumers that don't have much time, or that aren't interested in researching (or confused by) all the options TiVo offers, may opt to rent, for a flat fee, from the cable company instead. I think the "no commitment, no upfront cost" from the cable companies will solidify and doubts people have about getting TiVo.

I hope this is not the case, and if the new pricing structure does not work out, that TiVo is nimble enough to act quickly.


----------



## HannahWCU

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us, you'll continue to be billed at the original contract price.
> 
> Yup. Once your twelve months are up, call us, and you can convert one to $12.95, and the other to $6.95.
> 
> Thanks, glad you liked it! You're not alone. In our numerous testing trials, the response was phenomenal.


Thank you for your reply.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about  . As TivoOpsMgr confirmed. The $12.95 and $6.95 have not changed. The only thing that has changed (besides the elimination of the lifetime subscriptions service) is that you are given the option of "purchasing" a Tivo with no up-front costs. I think this is good for most people, because most people I talk to about Tivo talk about the no "upfront" costs with the cable company. And according to my math a new 80 hour unit will only cost $84 rebate free! ($19.95/month - $12.95/month = $7/month "extra" x 12 months = $84) That's if you remember to convert to the $12.95 plan (or $6.95 plan as long as your other Tivo is not under a "Bundled" contract), same as your paying now.


----------



## TiVoStephen

dswallow said:


> I'd feel more warmly towards TiVo if there was a monthly service fee class that entailed network connection only, thus eliminating the cost to TiVo of any chance of telephone call connection costs, and compensating the customer for TiVo's savings.


I hear you, and we would love to offer something like that, but broadband customers introduce other costs (especially if you sign up for such services as the Rocketboom content delivery). Our new pricing structure already has a lot of options. It's not practical for us to complicate it further by doubling the options we announced today.


----------



## jkovach

As a TiVo customer since November 1999, I urge you to bring back Lifetime. Even if it's $600 or more, bring it back! There are people like myself who refuse to be saddled with monthly bills or service contracts for hardware that we prefer to own free and clear.

And now a question... As the owner of a grandfathered Series 1 with Lifetime Service since Nov. 1999, can this unit's Lifetime service be transferred to a S3 once they come out?

[EDIT - I see the answer is yes. At least I'll be getting one Series 3, someday.]

Jeff


----------



## TiVoStephen

Spire said:


> So increase the price. Even if the increase had to be substantial to make it work for TiVo, I'd probably still pay it.
> 
> Why do I feel so strongly about this? I just don't like monthly fees -- and I know that I'm far from alone.


Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999? Our testing for the new price (not $999, but I can't tell you what it would have to be to be profitable) showed that it was not at all popular.

You don't like monthly fees? You have six new prepay options, depending on whether or not you want free hardware, and depending on if you want to prepay 1, 2, or 3 years.


----------



## Spiff

OK, I think all of my questions are answered (except how pricing will be set on S3 units, which can't be announced yet anyway.)

When I first bought a TiVo there were two options and a bonus feature. Pay $300 for lifetime or $12.95/month plus $50 for the Home Media Option. At those prices, it was a no-brainer to buy lifetime, as it only took 2 months to pay it off.

I purchased a second unit a few months later. At that time, it was $12.95/month or lifetime. They had JUST changed to free HMO. I got lifetime again.

At that point I would have stopped with two. Until they offered $50 refurbs and a multi-service discount. Too good to be true. I figured I didn't need them, but that price they could handle conflicts and multi-room viewing. Got 2 more.

Finally, they had the amazing deal on the "free" 140 hour units. Again, I couldn't say no.

Four of the five TiVos get used every day. I have the SA box for HD, and will send that back as soon as I can. 

Service prices have changed as TiVo has progressed as a company. A lifetime box loses money after two years (or 4 years with MSD). Look at how many people still have their series1 boxes with lifetime in use. TiVo has studied the market and decided that in the long run, it's better for their health to eliminate lifetime and offer different options on the pricing structure. It remains to be seen if they're right or wrong about that. But they can't continue along the way they have if it's not making enough money.

Will it cut down on evangelism? Probably. I hate the thought that I can't get lifetime on the S3. Is TiVo changing? Obviously. Am I planning on sticking with them? Honestly, I've looked at the competition and there's still nothing better out there. There are lots of options, but none with the user experience I've come to expect. If TiVo were like the cable DVRs there wouldn't even be one in my house (I sent my first SA Explorer box back to Time Warner after 3 months because I hated it). 

Anyway, thanks, Stephen and Pony, for taking the heat here and answering people quickly, honestly and directly.


----------



## Willin

lajohn27 said:


> There was a posting last week in the TIVO REWARDS - HEADS UP thread indicating that Lifetime was leaving the rewards cycle. (As it does from time to time).
> 
> Of course, who knows, it may make a return, I would imagine with a higher rewards point value if it does.. But gosh, it'll be all the more meaningful if it does return.
> 
> J


I don't see that in the thread. There was a reference back in December that it was for a limited time only. Did I miss something?


----------



## TiVoStephen

DCIFRTHS said:


> IMO, the more options you make available to the masses, the more confusing it becomes for them. People tend to stay away, and play it safe, rather than choosing the "wrong" option.
> 
> Consumers that don't have much time, or that aren't interested in researching (or confused by) all the options TiVo offers, may opt to rent, for a flat fee, from the cable company instead. I think the "no commitment, no upfront cost" from the cable companies will solidify and doubts people have about getting TiVo.
> 
> I hope this is not the case, and if the new pricing structure does not work out, that TiVo is nimble enough to act quickly.


The most popular option, and one that you will see marketing around, is a free 80-hour box for only $16.95 per month with a three-year commitment. They tell you they don't want a monthly fee? You reply with the fact that they can get a box and a year of service for just $224.

You don't have to go through EVERY option for every pitch you make to your friends.


----------



## mrmike

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> We no longer sell Product Lifetime gift subscriptions, and Best Buy also stopped selling them in January. So you can't buy a new one.


Great. I better call a CSR and verify that my old S1 is really grandfathered or if I need to start looking into HD recording options.

I really wish I could put my finger on why I feel betrayed somehow. I know it's silly, but I just can't shake the feeling.

-MM


----------



## Wosat

I can't say for sure how I feel about the new pricing scheme, because even after reading the announcement and all six pages of posts so far, I'm still not sure I fully understand it.

That this new pricing structure was created for simplicity sake is such a ridiculous notion that, were I to believe it, I would most surely spiral into insanity.


----------



## jkovach

I don't think it matters how much lifetime is, it should still be an option. Price it at whatever you guys feel make it viable. Let the customer decide if they want to go that route. Heck, it might even make the monthly service prices less psychologically painful. If Lifetime is $1000, then $15-$20 per month doesn't look so bad and makes the TiVo Service look even more valuable! Perception is reality.

And lastly, is it worth losing a large number of your most vocal, evangelistic customers just because lifetime isn't an option? I'd get lifetime even it was $1000. Honest!

I have 3 units with lifetime.

Jeff


----------



## JustAllie

Whew, got my order in for a TiVo with Lifetime as a gift for a friend just under the wire.

All my TiVos are on Lifetime. I guess I'll just have to cope with the fact that this won't be an option in the future. I don't anticipate getting another TiVo until I upgrade to HDTV... in a year or two.


----------



## vertigo235

Hey TiVoOpsMgr, can you explain to me why a 6 year old box that was just deactivated last year would have a 12 month commitment if it was reactivated by the original account holder to try to get someone to try TiVo? 

When the TiVo decide to totally SHAFT their loyal followers?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> .... We're no longer a scrappy startup, but we're still scrappy and we have to be a profitable company. ....
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


 :up: :up: :up:


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Stephen,

When yo get a moment, would you answer my question here?

Thanks.


----------



## DrStrange

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999? Our testing for the new price (not $999, but I can't tell you what it would have to be to be profitable) showed that it was not at all popular.


This is actually getting close to an answer I can respect. If Tivo crunched some numbers and determined that a sustainable lifetime price would have had to be something nobody would pay, ok. That sucks, but so be it.

What's sort of grating on me is the cheerleading for all these new ongoing fee options as though they should somehow replace or eliminate any desire for lifetime service. Suck it up. Say "We know some people want lifetime service but we can no longer afford to offer an affordable lifetime option. We are sorry about that, but we've increased the number of ongoing payment plans which, while not a substitute for lifetime service, we hope will include an acceptable alternative."


----------



## vertigo235

> Personally, I feel evangelism is actually better now -- with more options, it's easier to find one that fits. After next week I can tell someone, "Dude! You don't have TiVo? Go to tivo.com and you can get a brand new 80-hour unit totally FREE for just $16.95 a month!" If that's not a simple evangelism message, I don't know what is. And believe me when I say it has tested extremely well.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


I can't wait to tell my In Laws if they like TiVo and want to buy a newer bigger TiVo, that they totaly shafted me and require me to pay a $150 cancelation fee for re-activating my 6 year old 27 hour TiVo box that was active for almost 6 years.

I'm sure that will speak loads about what a great company TiVo is.


----------



## tangent1138

this sucks.

i hate monthly fees-- cable bill, phone bill, cell phone bill, etc. my one joy was my tivo with lifetime. i'd rather pay upfront and be done with it.


----------



## lajohn27

Why not offer lifetime no matter what the cost? I'd guess because even offering it on a non-promoted basis; just as an option hanging out there.. has costs.

Just a thought.


----------



## aine

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us, you'll continue to be billed at the original contract price.
> 
> Yup. Once your twelve months are up, call us, and you can convert one to $12.95, and the other to $6.95.


Given that, why would any choose the 2- or 3-year contract?

Not counting the "prepaid" options, tour choices are essentially:

1. Pay $19.95/month for 12 months. After 1 year, you start paying $12.95.

2. Pay $18.95/month for 24 months. After 2 years, you start paying $12.95.

Who in their right mind would choose anything but (1)? With (2), sure you save $12 over the first year, but then you're locked into paying $18.95/month for the entire second year -- whereas with (1) you would drop down to $12.95 for the second year.

The 1-year contract is $60 *cheaper * over a the 2-year period. Who would choose the 2-year contract, then? Makes no sense.

What am I missing?


----------



## dgh

aine said:


> What am I missing?


That you're not the target audience for option 2


----------



## HannahWCU

aine said:


> Given that, why would any choose the 2- or 3-year contract?
> 
> Not counting the "prepaid" options, tour choices are essentially:
> 
> 1. Pay $19.95/month for 12 months. After 1 year, you start paying $12.95.
> 
> 2. Pay $18.95/month for 24 months. After 2 years, you start paying $12.95.
> 
> Who in their right mind would choose anything but (1)? With (2), sure you save $12 over the first year, but then you're locked into paying $18.95/month for the entire second year -- whereas with (1) you would drop down to $12.95 for the second year.
> 
> The 1-year contract is $60 *cheaper * over a the 2-year period. Who would choose the 2-year contract, then? Makes no sense.
> 
> What am I missing?


Nothing that I see. Its just that some people (new to Tivo), might not see it as spending less money overall, but more per month $19.95 vs. $18.95 (or $16.95). I totally agree with you. If I was buying today, I would choose the $19.95/month for 12 months then switch to the $12.95/month plan.


----------



## Stu_Bee

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> After next week I can tell someone, "Dude! You don't have TiVo? Go to tivo.com and you can get a brand new 80-hour unit totally FREE for just $16.95 a month!"


Do we whisper the last part after the word "Free"?

PS. Hey, You can get a new Car for totally FREE for just $350 a month.


----------



## superdlux

Well, since Tivo offers Tivo-To-Go for my Mac, it's definitely worth it.

Oh wait, they don't.


----------



## HannahWCU

The one year contract is the least expensive over a 3 year period:

1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $12.95 x 24 Months = $550.20

2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $12.95 x 12 Months = $610.20

3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20


----------



## Spire

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999? Our testing for the new price (not $999, but I can't tell you what it would have to be to be profitable) showed that it was not at all popular.


Maybe I would! But the exact threshold below which I would still pay is not the issue; obviously, that threshold would be different for each person.

Let's TiVo came up with the $999 as the magic price for profitability. Maybe I'd pay; maybe I wouldn't. Maybe some of the other people in this thread would pay, and some wouldn't.

The important thing is that we would each have the _option_ to decide whether this deal were worth it for us. Choice is Good.

Besides, If TiVo had already determined that lifetime subscriptions at $999 would be profitable for the company, what exactly would TiVo have to lose by offering lifetime subscriptions at that price?


TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You don't like monthly fees? You have six new prepay options, depending on whether or not you want free hardware, and depending on if you want to prepay 1, 2, or 3 years.


Great. So what am I left with after those one, two, or three years are up? Monthly fees.

Or a doorstop.


----------



## davezatz

HannahWCU said:


> The one year contract is the least expensive over a 3 year period:
> 1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $12.95 x 24 Months = $550.20
> 2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $12.95 x 12 Months = $610.20
> 3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20


I'm obviously not the target audience, but I can tell you there will be no standard def DVRs in my house in three years. Heck, there probably won't be any within 12-18 months.


----------



## pdhenry

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Just to be clear, yes, as long as you have a qualifying unit, when you convert your second unit to a new contract, it will be priced at $6.95 per month.


Steve:

Please clarify what constitutes a "qualifying unit." Is it a unit on any plan above $6.95?

Hypothetical: If I currently have a unit on monthly outside of a commitment, and I get another unit on a "no upfront cost" plan, do I pay $6.95 for the older monthly box?


----------



## HannahWCU

davezatz said:


> I'm obviously not the target audience, but I can tell you there will be no standard def DVRs in my house in three years. Heck, there probably won't be any within 12-18 months.


I agree, thats why I don't have my two Tivo's under lifetime contracts. As many have said, technology changes rapidly. I currently have a Moxi HD recorder from Charter in my house (at $9.99/month). I am currently testing it to see what I like dislike about it because at some point I plan to change completely over to HD recorders. I hope these will be Tivo boxes, because nothing else compares (but that a different tread). I think the $3 premium I pay on Tivo is worth it compared to the Moxi box (but that HD is hard to beat).


----------



## jkovach

HannahWCU said:


> The one year contract is the least expensive over a 3 year period:
> 
> 1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $12.95 x 24 Months = $550.20
> 
> 2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $12.95 x 12 Months = $610.20
> 
> 3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20


The problem here is, you're assuming that monthly 'service only' charges will remain $12.95 per month for the next 3 years... Raise it to $15.95 and look at what happens to the 3 year costs:

1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $15.95 x 24 Months = $622.20

2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $15.95 x 12 Months = $646.20

3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20

Of course, who can predict what will happen to the monthly service only fee in the future? Up, down, eliminated?

Jeff


----------



## perry7566

for say 50 % premium of 0.75 billion and take they would have great interface, existing market penetration, and own the standard, - it would be pocket change for them.


----------



## HannahWCU

jkovach said:


> The problem here is, you're assuming that monthly 'service only' charges will remain $12.95 per month for the next 3 years... Raise it to $15.95 and look at what happens to the 3 year costs:
> 
> 1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $15.95 x 24 Months = $622.20
> 
> 2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $15.95 x 12 Months = $646.20
> 
> 3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20
> 
> Of course, who can predict what will happen to the monthly service only fee in the future? Up, down, eliminated?
> 
> Jeff


Agreed, but you would think that if the $12.95 "service" fee goes up then the other plans would also have to increase to cover the equipment fees (the $84 premium on the 12 month contract or the $144 on the 2 or 3 year contract)


----------



## Spiff

* The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
month or $224 prepaid

$224 + $12.95 x 24 months = $ 534.80

* The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
month or $369 prepaid

$369 + $12.95 x 12 months = $ 524.40

* The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
month or $469 prepaid

So, if you pre-pay the 3 year is the best deal.


----------



## HannahWCU

Thanks, I forgot about the pre-pay option being cheaper  . I was just looking at the monthly fees.


----------



## Spiff

Hey, I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to spin this to my wife when I want to buy an S3 and she hears there's no Lifetime.


----------



## dgh

Spiff said:


> Hey, I'm just trying to figure out how I'm going to spin this to my wife when I want to buy an S3 and she hears there's no Lifetime.


Get her drunk and hide her calculator


----------



## Malibyte

OK...let me get something straight...I know this has been beat to death already, but I'm in a bit of a quandary here.

My S2 has a lifetime sub already. No problem. 

My Humax is 3 months into the 23 months at $6.95/month (I bought it directly from TiVo and paid the bundled fee (December)). So, if I went with the lifetime option, I'd lose the 20 months I've already paid for, but wouldn't have to worry about it any more. I assume that if I don't go with lifetime on this machine, then at the end of the 20 months, I can simply continue paying the $6.95/month, as it's an existing contract? Or will it go up to $12.95 or whatever the going rate is for service only at the time?

Also, as someone has already mentioned, technology changes...I have a big HDTV downstairs, but since I'm on DISH, which doesn't offer TiVo, I have one of their HD DVR units on it, which isn't bad, but isn't near as versatile as TiVo. The two TiVos are on analog sets. If I went with lifetime on the Humax, it would take about 43 months to start paying off (assuming I could otherwise continue with the $7/month, and not counting the $140 I'd lose up front by going with lifetime now). Who knows what will be available then...the Humax may be as useful then as a '286 PC is now, and I might have HDTVs all over the house.

Can anyone offer advice? My gut feeling is to stick with my current setup, especially if I can continue at the $6.95/month rate at the end of next year.

Thanks...Bob


----------



## aindik

jkovach said:


> The problem here is, you're assuming that monthly 'service only' charges will remain $12.95 per month for the next 3 years... Raise it to $15.95 and look at what happens to the 3 year costs:
> 
> 1 year contract = $19.95 X 12 Months + $15.95 x 24 Months = $622.20
> 
> 2 year contract = $18.95 X 24 Months + $15.95 x 12 Months = $646.20
> 
> 3 year contract = $16.95 X 36 Months = $610.20
> 
> Of course, who can predict what will happen to the monthly service only fee in the future? Up, down, eliminated?
> 
> Jeff


Well, TiVo will soon be announcing "an update to its service-only options, providing consumers that purchase a TiVo unit at a retail outlet with the option to pre-pay for one-, two-, or three-years of TiVo service." So, whatever the monthly service is a year after they announce these, you can lock that in by prepaying (protecting yourself from future increases).

At this point, what is the "lifetime" of a Series 2 box anyway? If you don't want to pay a monthly fee again for three years, you get a TiVo with three years of service for $469. After three years, wouldn't you probably get a new one anyway?

(Said the person who bought lifetime on the TiVo he bought in May of 2002 and is still using it as his one and only, though it is showing its age).

Though I suppose the elimination of lifetime for the Series 3 boxes is what's really angering people.


----------



## bigjohn

Wouldn't this be a great opportunity for existing subscribers to either commit to a lifetime plan for like $199 per box or transfer over S1 lifetimes to S2 for $99 each?


----------



## bigjohn

tangent1138 said:


> this sucks.
> 
> i hate monthly fees-- cable bill, phone bill, cell phone bill, etc. my one joy was my tivo with lifetime. i'd rather pay upfront and be done with it.


we're being nickel and dimed to death


----------



## TiVoStephen

mrmike said:


> Great. I better call a CSR and verify that my old S1 is really grandfathered or if I need to start looking into HD recording options.
> 
> I really wish I could put my finger on why I feel betrayed somehow. I know it's silly, but I just can't shake the feeling.


No need to call -- just use Manage My Account (http://www.tivo.com/manage/), and verify that you have a Series1 unit with Product Lifetime dated before January 20, 2000.

As for that feeling -- I'm sorry you feel that way. Just think about it this way: For as long as we possibly could, we gave our customers one of the greatest service deals that was ever available. We will still honor that Product Lifetime for all of you. But now, to make sure TiVo grows and profits as a company so that we can honor those Product Lifetime contracts for years to come, we are no longer able to offer Product Lifetime.

Some companies would have taken it away with no notice. You have a week's notice.

Some companies would have changed the terms of your original deal. We didn't change anything for our existing subscribers.

Some companies would have just taken away Lifetime and given nothing in exchange. TiVo announced today many new choices to make our service as attractive as possible.

And best of all we've done what all of our testing and many analysts (and even many of you here) have told us to do -- offer a way to get a box with no up-front fee.


----------



## miadlor

If a "new" customer is "willing" to pay for a 3 year service and box for about $610.......then a lifetime box is going to be worth no less than that and a good amount more. (to a new customer)


**As much as TiVo "seems" to be a household name......most people don't have a clue about it and don't seem interested to even think of paying for it now....forget the new price structure. It's going to send them running. Can't wait to see what the next new president will do to fix this mess.


----------



## jmace57

Spiff said:


> OK, I think all of my questions are answered (except how pricing will be set on S3 units, which can't be announced yet anyway.)
> 
> When I first bought a TiVo there were two options and a bonus feature. Pay $300 for lifetime or $12.95/month plus $50 for the Home Media Option. At those prices, it was a no-brainer to buy lifetime, as it only took 2 months to pay it off.
> 
> I purchased a second unit a few months later. At that time, it was $12.95/month or lifetime. They had JUST changed to free HMO. I got lifetime again.
> 
> At that point I would have stopped with two. Until they offered $50 refurbs and a multi-service discount. Too good to be true. I figured I didn't need them, but that price they could handle conflicts and multi-room viewing. Got 2 more.
> 
> Finally, they had the amazing deal on the "free" 140 hour units. Again, I couldn't say no.
> 
> Four of the five TiVos get used every day. I have the SA box for HD, and will send that back as soon as I can.
> 
> Service prices have changed as TiVo has progressed as a company. A lifetime box loses money after two years (or 4 years with MSD). Look at how many people still have their series1 boxes with lifetime in use. TiVo has studied the market and decided that in the long run, it's better for their health to eliminate lifetime and offer different options on the pricing structure. It remains to be seen if they're right or wrong about that. But they can't continue along the way they have if it's not making enough money.
> 
> Will it cut down on evangelism? Probably. I hate the thought that I can't get lifetime on the S3. Is TiVo changing? Obviously. Am I planning on sticking with them? Honestly, I've looked at the competition and there's still nothing better out there. There are lots of options, but none with the user experience I've come to expect. If TiVo were like the cable DVRs there wouldn't even be one in my house (I sent my first SA Explorer box back to Time Warner after 3 months because I hated it).
> 
> Anyway, thanks, Stephen and Pony, for taking the heat here and answering people quickly, honestly and directly.


Well said Spiff..

Hey boys and girls - look at it this way - this is one of the few times ever it turned out being an "early adopter" paid off.

That said - I have 3 lifetime and one at $6.95/month - and I have hit my TiVo saturation point - so I am still a happy camper. As stated earlier, it makes evangelizing a lot more difficult. But let's let the late adopters pay to keep funding the losses we are causing with our older lifetime TiVos.

Jim


----------



## dswallow

DrStrange said:


> This is actually getting close to an answer I can respect. If Tivo crunched some numbers and determined that a sustainable lifetime price would have had to be something nobody would pay, ok. That sucks, but so be it.
> 
> What's sort of grating on me is the cheerleading for all these new ongoing fee options as though they should somehow replace or eliminate any desire for lifetime service. Suck it up. Say "We know some people want lifetime service but we can no longer afford to offer an affordable lifetime option. We are sorry about that, but we've increased the number of ongoing payment plans which, while not a substitute for lifetime service, we hope will include an acceptable alternative."


I really just don't see why they need to eliminate it as an option; they know what they need it to be. Make it that amount. If nobody buys it, what have they lost? At least it's a choice people can have.

You know what it really does? Makes the lifetime cost an asset of sorts... it keeps the resale high on units with lifetime. Thus there likely still will be a desire for lifetime service by those who've been through this before or have at least seen how lifetime affects resale values.


----------



## mrmike

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> No need to call -- just use Manage My Account (http://www.tivo.com/manage/), and verify that you have a Series1 unit with Product Lifetime dated before January 20, 2000.


That unit has always been messed up in Manage, it claims I don't own it (even though it's visible on my account) because the ownership transfer on it got messed up somehow way back when. It never really bothered me until now.



> And best of all we've done what all of our testing and many analysts (and even many of you here) have told us to do -- offer a way to get a box with no up-front fee.


Don't take this personally, please. I hate being "spun". And this is spin. You changed something that's been around for 7 years and replaced it with things that don't replace it. I really do hope that it is profitable for the company long term, but I'd still rather have Lifetime as an option (Yes, even if I had to pay the real carrying costs of it). That would be a real choice.

-MM


----------



## dmk1974

dmk1974 said:


> Question...Lifetime service is tied to the BOX, not the subscriber, correct? I have an old Series 1 box with lifetime service that I want to sell. Irregardless of the date I sell it, the lifetime service tied to the box should be able to be transferred to another person's own account, right?


TiVoOpsMgr, do you have an answer to this question? Thanks!


----------



## jmace57

Malibyte said:


> OK...let me get something straight...I know this has been beat to death already, but I'm in a bit of a quandary here.
> 
> My S2 has a lifetime sub already. No problem.
> 
> My Humax is 3 months into the 23 months at $6.95/month (I bought it directly from TiVo and paid the bundled fee (December)). So, if I went with the lifetime option, I'd lose the 20 months I've already paid for, but wouldn't have to worry about it any more. I assume that if I don't go with lifetime on this machine, then at the end of the 20 months, I can simply continue paying the $6.95/month, as it's an existing contract? Or will it go up to $12.95 or whatever the going rate is for service only at the time?
> 
> ..... If I went with lifetime on the Humax, it would take about 43 months to start paying off (assuming I could otherwise continue with the $7/month, and not counting the $140 I'd lose up front by going with lifetime now). ....
> 
> Can anyone offer advice? My gut feeling is to stick with my current setup, especially if I can continue at the $6.95/month rate at the end of next year.
> 
> Thanks...Bob


That's what I am doing Malibyte, FWIW.

Jim


----------



## dtreese

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Good question.
> 
> Today, if you sign up for monthly service, the box is NOT tied to the contract (unlike Product Lifetime). You can use Manage My Account to change the TiVo Service Number at any time.
> 
> The new pricing plans announced today are exactly the same. They are NOT tied to the box. You can change to a different box at any time. That includes different types of hardware. That also includes the Series3.
> 
> (My sentence there does not disclose ANYTHING about the pricing plans for the Series3 when it launches later this year. The bundled pricing for Series3 has not been announced.)


Forgive me, but it seems like you're saying 2 things here, and you might want to clarify. You say that you can change the new pricing plans to a different box at any time, including the Series 3. Then you note that the Series 3 pricing has not been announced.

I may be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure you'll want the opportunity to comment early, but does this mean that you could purchase a 3-year plan and lock in that price, then switch over to S3 hardware at the price you've already locked in? I'm not asking for any information about Series 3 pricing, just clarification about the above statement. Under the right circumstances, I can see this possibly being a real boon to longtime TiVo fans -- maybe another little way to ameliorate the loss of the lifetime option.


----------



## TiVoStephen

DrStrange said:


> This is actually getting close to an answer I can respect. If Tivo crunched some numbers and determined that a sustainable lifetime price would have had to be something nobody would pay, ok. That sucks, but so be it.
> 
> What's sort of grating on me is the cheerleading for all these new ongoing fee options as though they should somehow replace or eliminate any desire for lifetime service. Suck it up. Say "We know some people want lifetime service but we can no longer afford to offer an affordable lifetime option. We are sorry about that, but we've increased the number of ongoing payment plans which, while not a substitute for lifetime service, we hope will include an acceptable alternative."


Fair enough. I think you're right. When I quoted Tom, his full quote had more details and was pretty similar to what you said.

I agree with you. I know many people want Product Lifetime -- I'm one of them. And I'm sorry, but it's true, we can no longer afford to offer Product Lifetime at any price that consumers would find reasonable. I'm definitely sorry that that's the case, but we did announce a number of different payment options which I'm personally excited by and which our testing has shown are very popular.

Close enough, I hope?

For people here, who have been used to the idea of Product Lifetime for seven years, and who may have already set aside money for a Series3 plus Product Lifetime, I recognize that today's news is not good news for you.

But will you all please accept (at least the possibility) that it's good news for the company and therefore in turn all of us here (except for those who are here and work for the competition) by making TiVo a stronger, more profitable company with faster growth?


----------



## TiVoStephen

vertigo235 said:


> I can't wait to tell my In Laws if they like TiVo and want to buy a newer bigger TiVo, that they totaly shafted me and require me to pay a $150 cancelation fee for re-activating my 6 year old 27 hour TiVo box that was active for almost 6 years.
> 
> I'm sure that will speak loads about what a great company TiVo is.


You have a friend who works for TiVo who can help you out.

Seriously.

If you think you're getting a raw deal, write me with the details, and I'll fix it.

Best regards,
Stephen


----------



## TiVoStephen

Stu_Bee said:


> Do we whisper the last part after the word "Free"?
> 
> PS. Hey, You can get a new Car for totally FREE for just $350 a month.


Okay, I'll admit it, this made me laugh out loud.

This is why I'm not in marketing, I guess.

Liberally substitute "NO UPFRONT COST" for "FREE" in my pitch...


----------



## TiVoStephen

superdlux said:


> Well, since Tivo will offer Tivo-To-Go for my Mac in a few months, it's definitely worth it.


Fixed!


----------



## miadlor

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Okay, I'll admit it, this made me laugh out loud.
> 
> This is why I'm not in marketing, I guess.
> 
> Liberally substitute "NO UPFRONT COST" for "FREE" in my pitch...


Laugh.........that's exactly how they sell new cars in New England.

"This 2006 bla bla for only $12,995..........*with $6,995 down."


----------



## TiVoStephen

Spire said:


> The important thing is that we would each have the _option_ to decide whether this deal were worth it for us. Choice is Good.


Except that too much choice is confusing, as many people in this thread have taken pains to point out to us.

And perhaps we have announced too many options; that's definitely a risk. But Product Lifetime at a price so high that in our tests it scared some people away entirely from choosing TiVo at all is a bad thing. After we see how the market reacts to the new pricing, over time you may see some of the most unpopular ones rotated out.


----------



## ScottNY845

I think TivoPony and all the folks at Tivo should start submitting their resume to Monster, or Careerbuilders.com.....

If anyone has a spare shovel, this is where I would begin to start digging the hole and have a preist nearby to starting reading last rites.....

Between the FINANCIAL reports and that bad news, the new pricing which is also a bad move, there is one song that comes to mind, but is completly opposite of the future of Tivo:

"The future's so bright I have to wear shades"


----------



## mattack

Haven't read the whole thread (skimmed many pages of it though). I agree with many people -- this makes it VERY likely (I won't say absolutely positive but I'm leaning that way) that I'll just stick with my lifetime series 1s. I vaguely seriously considered upgrading to series 2s (with lifetime subscriptions) a few times but never did. I have been VERY anxiously awaiting series 3s.

But with no lifetime subscriptions, I'm not as anxiously awaiting them. I still want the features to get here (dual tuners, cablecard even though I'm an analog-only cable person now).. But without being able to buy lifetime, I don't see replacing my existing Tivos with S3s.

Really, even if they raised it to $400 or something, I'd rather have the OPTION of lifetime service there. With no option, it's not very attractive to me. This actually makes me more interested in weighing the Comcast-with-Tivo price too though.. I'd rather own the equipment and not pay monthly though.


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## TiVoStephen

Spire said:


> Great. So what am I left with after those one, two, or three years are up? Monthly fees.


Nope -- you can re-up for one, two or three more years.


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## charliekowalchuk

Sounds like Tivo has decided to change the policy because they no longer want to sell products for "nerds" or "techies" like the orginal product was geared too, back in the day.

Instead, their going after the InDUHviduals who have just been forking over their money to Time Warner or any other cable company.

I feel cheated Tivo, but then I really wouldn't expect Tivo to really care, business is business. :down: 

One question though, if I buy a bunch of Tivos and lifetime activate them and then sell them on ebay after a few months, this is okay for Tivo? Cause this will deffinately inflate their value.


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## DrStrange

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Close enough, I hope?


Yeah, I'm good. I do wonder why you couldn't at least offer the option at whatever price for those who are willing to pay it, but I can accept that that may be so few people that it's not worth the the accounting, or the flack you'd be getting anyway for raising it to whatever you have to raise it to.


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## xnevergiveinx

ok, i kinda have a dilema.
i ordered my refurbed box on the 7th. it should arrive by the 14th. the guy on the phone at tivo said i have till the 18th to get a lifetime sub upgrade on it. (he also said that i have a 30 day grace period after the 18th to get the lifetime sub, i guess it's for slow people)

my series 1 box was deactivated 2 days ago, because i'm putting it on ebay soon. so, i have my other tivo box, my series 2, that is on a monthly sub and i'm locked into it until october (1 year contract)

lets put up a scenario:
i don't get my refurbed box before the 18th. on the 19th i get it, i can call and get my lifetime sub no problem.
what happens to my other tivo box? will i be forced to pay $12.95 a month until october, or will i be able to get the multi box discount because shipping took so long.

also, how long will they offer the multi box discount for? for as long as i have my tivos, or will i be forced to do a contract at $20 a month in october?


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## rainwater

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> And perhaps we have announced too many options; that's definitely a risk. But Product Lifetime at a price so high that in our tests it scared some people away entirely from choosing TiVo at all is a bad thing. After we see how the market reacts to the new pricing, over time you may see some of the most unpopular ones rotated out.


Not having lifetime also makes giving a TiVo as a gift very difficult. In fact, I would never give a TiVo as a gift with the current plans because I'm not the type of person to stick friends/family with monthly bills. Even if I buy them x years, knowing they will be billed afterwords isn't acceptable.

Btw, I know plenty of people who bought a TiVo who were not even aware of the Lifetime option. It's not like TiVo advertised this all over the place. I'm not sure how it would scare users to atleast have the option.


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## dgh

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> And I'm sorry, but it's true, we can no longer afford to offer Product Lifetime at any price that consumers would find reasonable.


That was a better statement but also somewhat shocking. I believe what you're saying is that the true cost of running the TiVo service over the lifetime of a TiVo box is more than consumers would pay. However, if you can concentrate on the consumers without calculators, you can sneak up on them with the monthly plan. I hope it works for you, but most of the consumers I know have the calculator technology already installed.


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## Tivo Basic Mike

Tivo seems to be trying to get rid of that monthly fee feeling people have when buying a box. Now the new SA DVRs have no fee LG, Sony. If there is a LG box setting right next to the Tivo in Best Buy and the sales person tells the customer that the LG box has no fees and the Tivo box does I am sure most people will pick the LG box. There are still a good amount of people jumping into the DVR market thanks to all the Directv and Dish commercials pushing their DVR not even to mention cable.


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## TiVoStephen

pdhenry said:


> Hypothetical: If I currently have a unit on monthly outside of a commitment, and I get another unit on a "no upfront cost" plan, do I pay $6.95 for the older monthly box?


Good question, I haven't touched on that previously.

Let me introduce the acronym "MSD" for Multiple Subscription Discount.

Basically MSD is completely unchanged from today. Whatever qualifies you today, continues to qualify you in the future. Units that are eligible today are still eligible.

Eligible units are defined in our MSD faq at http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp#MSD:



> What does it mean to be "eligible" for the Multi-Service Discount?
> In order to be eligible for the discounted monthly service, all TiVo® subscriptions must be registered to the same account at tivo.com and must be dialing in/connecting from the same service address. You must also have one TiVo box paying the regular monthly fee, annual or paid in full with product lifetime service and payment made directly with TiVo (as opposed to a third party service provider such as DIRECTV). For instance, DIRECTV DVRs with the TiVo service are ineligible to receive the MULTI-SERVICE DISCOUNT.


So, if you have an existing contract with us that's a full-price monthly or annual or Product LIfetime subscription, we call that a "qualifying unit" because it enables you to get up to 5 other units at the MSD price.

Next week, there will be new options. The brand new bundling pricing options, and the new prepaid service-only pricing options, are not NOT eligible for MSD, as previously stated. But they DO qualify as full-price units.

So, for your scenario, let's say you have an existing $12.95 contract (regardless of whether or not it is within the commitment period). You get one of the new bundled service options. Now you have a qualifying unit, so your existing contract automatically becomes $6.95 a month until you cancel one contract or the other.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## morac

I think I know the answer but I just want to check. My existing lifetime S2 TiVo will not be affected by the new pricing scheme and if I went out to a retail store and bought another TiVo I would still qualify for the MSD correct?


BTW I would think this new pricing scheme would cause the resale market of existing lifetime TiVos to sky-rocket. I know eventually they will all break, but in the shortrun it seems like TiVo is shortchanging itself.


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## DrStrange

charliekowalchuk said:


> Sounds like Tivo has decided to change the policy because they no longer want to sell products for "nerds" or "techies" like the orginal product was geared too, back in the day.


Techies were never the intended targets, they were just the easiest being so prone to early adoption. Back in the dim mists of time I recall a certain Richard Bullwinkle declaring that Tivo was aiming for everyone, including people in"those middle states". Later either he or maybe TivoPony flat out said that though they loved us, we were not their target audience.

Recall that from day one Tivo has focused on ease of use above all else, often (and annoyingly) at the expense of features the techies in this forum have been clamoring for. If anything I wish they'd focus a little bit more on some of the things techies want, and not be so reluctant to add features just because they might confuse someones grandma.


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## TiVoStephen

Malibyte said:


> OK...let me get something straight...I know this has been beat to death already, but I'm in a bit of a quandary here.
> 
> My S2 has a lifetime sub already. No problem.
> 
> My Humax is 3 months into the 23 months at $6.95/month [...]
> 
> My gut feeling is to stick with my current setup, especially if I can continue at the $6.95/month rate at the end of next year.


If you continue to own your Series2 with Product Lifetime on the same account as your Humax, then yes your Humax will stay at $6.95 for the indefinite future.


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## gschrock

You know, two things bother me. One, for all that this is supposedly simpler pricing, I think this thread, full of people that are far more knowledgeable than the average joe out buying a tivo is proves just how much "easier" this new scheme is. I know their research says this should be better, but I strongly question whether the real world believe this.

Next, for all that tivo zealots say that cable boxes aren't a competitor to tivo's, I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. At $20 it's runninng, what, twice what most cable boxes are running these days? That's a pretty tough sell, especially for someone that's never used tivo's before. I know people that fall into this category that are perfectly happy with their cable box. Heck, quite frankly, at that margin, I'd probably seriously consider the cable box (if I had an hdtv, that's probably be a no-brainer decision right about now to be honest).

Personally I felt that when tivo went to $12.95 for their subscription, that was a pretty hard sell. I've been quietly skeptical at best on some of tivo's moves recently. I really see this one as a gamble, hoping that it brings enough capital in to stave off going under. And personally, I wouldn't touch that 3 year commitment with a 10 foot pole, because I honestly think this move might make it tough to last that long.

All this makes me happy I've stayed with the directivo's. Ok, yeah, no software development (a lot of which IMHO is of questionable worth anyways), but it's a hell of a lot cheaper.


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## xnevergiveinx

i'd wish someone would answer my question, but if you check out sirius radio's lifetime subscription, it's $499. and if you want to transfer the lifetime sub to a different radio in the future, it costs $75. thats a little steep. and they only offer this till the end of july.


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## HannahWCU

Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get? The _only _ good thing about Moxi box I have from Charter is its HD. Other than that, it sucks.

Just my opinion, but if these new pricing plans (and the elimination of the lifetime plan) keeps Tivo in business, then I'm all for it. For me, the $3 premium I pay ($12.95 vs. $9.99) for my Tivo over the Charter DVR is worth _EVERY PENNY_! I have had Dish and Charter and _NOTHING_ compares to my two Tivo boxes. Every service provider must increase/revise their pricing from time-to-time.


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## bidger

Is there a warranty tied to the term of the service plan a subscriber chooses, i.e.- 1 year warranty for one year service, 2 for 2 years service, etc.?

Nevermind, I found my answer here.


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## dswallow

morac said:


> BTW I would think this new pricing scheme would cause the resale market of existing lifetime TiVos to sky-rocket. I know eventually they will all break, but in the shortrun it seems like TiVo is shortchanging itself.


If the price really does skyrocket, nothing stops TiVo from offering units on EBay (or anywhere else) with lifetime service.


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## TiVoStephen

dmk1974 said:


> Question...Lifetime service is tied to the BOX, not the subscriber, correct? I have an old Series 1 box with lifetime service that I want to sell. Regardless of the date I sell it, the lifetime service tied to the box should be able to be transferred to another person's own account, right?


Correct. This is how it works today, and it will not change next week. Either you or the new owner can call to transfer ownership. (Request an "ownership transfer for a unit with product lifetime.")


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## davezatz

dswallow said:


> If the price really does skyrocket, nothing stops TiVo from offering units on EBay (or anywhere else) with lifetime service.


Clever...


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## rainwater

HannahWCU said:


> Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get? The _only _ good thing about Moxi box I have from Charter is its HD. Other than that, it sucks.


It hardly sucks. The only issue currently for me is it doesn't allow expansion. I'm currently using Moxi and I am down to only 1 TiVo because I am anticipating switching to HD this year.


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## dswallow

HannahWCU said:


> Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get? The _only _ good thing about Moxi box I have from Charter is its HD. Other than that, it sucks.


I'll probably just stick with my HD TiVo DirecTV units -- using the new DirecTV HD DVR for MPEG4 material if necessary; but most of what I watch is broadcast so I get those ATSC channels with an antenna.

I had thought I might cancel DirecTV altogether and just buy 2 or 3 HD TiVo standalones. My DVR service with DirecTV is grandfatehred lifetime, so I could also just drop from Total Choice Premier to a lesser package too. Now when the Series 3 units do come out, this'll change how I evaluate what to do next. A lot will depend on whether or not the current monthly pricing is maintained or increased, I suppose.

And then there's that whole group who might just cross over the line and hack the TiVo for service.


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## rainwater

dswallow said:


> If the price really does skyrocket, nothing stops TiVo from offering units on EBay (or anywhere else) with lifetime service.


True, but the new packages they offer will get them more money in the long run. They are trying their best to get users on monthly rates. Some people are more apt to keep paying on monthly rates than to try to switch to another service. It's basically the AOL method from years ago.


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## Lampei

Just wanted to confirm one thing

If we have a lifetime gift card, we *will* be able to use it on the Series 3 when it comes out, correct?


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## xnevergiveinx

Lampei said:


> Just wanted to confirm one thing
> 
> If we have a lifetime gift card, we *will* be able to use it on the Series 3 when it comes out, correct?


wow, never thought about that, that might be a loophole to getting a lifetime series 3


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## TiVoStephen

dtreese said:


> Forgive me, but it seems like you're saying 2 things here, and you might want to clarify. You say that you can change the new pricing plans to a different box at any time, including the Series 3. Then you note that the Series 3 pricing has not been announced.
> 
> I may be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure you'll want the opportunity to comment early, but does this mean that you could purchase a 3-year plan and lock in that price, then switch over to S3 hardware at the price you've already locked in? I'm not asking for any information about Series 3 pricing, just clarification about the above statement. Under the right circumstances, I can see this possibly being a real boon to longtime TiVo fans -- maybe another little way to ameliorate the loss of the lifetime option.


What I'm saying is that we have not announced the pricing for bundled service where the bundle includes a Series3. Instead what we did announce today is pricing for a bundle that includes service plus the 80-hour standalone Series2 DVR.

However, I can confirm that if you have an existing monthly or annual subscription, or if you purchase any of the service-only monthly options or prepay options, or if you purchase the bundled service that we announced today, AND, later on you acquire a Series3 (perhaps at retail, for example), you can transfer your existing monthly service to the Series3 unit.

Let me give you a concrete example. Suppose you have monthly service on a Series2 (at $12.95 per month). And suppose you have monthly service on a Series1 (at $6.95 per month). And suppose that later this year when the Series3 comes out, you go to retail and purchase it. And then suppose that your Series1 unit explodes into green goo, due to a tragic lime jelly accident. You can call us up to transfer your service from the dead Series1 to the new Series3 you just bought. Your service cost is still $6.95 per month on that brand new Series3.

What I'm NOT saying (because it's not announced yet) is how much it would cost to get new service in a to-be-offered-in-the-future bundle that includes a new Series3.

Hope that's more clear.


----------



## HannahWCU

rainwater said:


> It hardly sucks. The only issue currently for me is it doesn't allow expansion. I'm currently using Moxi and I am down to only 1 TiVo because I am anticipating switching to HD this year.


OK maybe "sucks" was too harsh. But that lack of expansion is a BIG issue for me, really, 8 hours of HD program recording??? Also, its slow, the interface is not real intuative... I could go on (but I won't  ). I am anticipating the switch to a Big screen HDTV soon also. That is why I have the Moxi (hooked up to a 27" HDTV), I'm trying out my options. And to me, the Moxi isn't an option (at least not with only 8 hours of HD recording).


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## dswallow

rainwater said:


> True, but the new packages they offer will get them more money in the long run. They are trying their best to get users on monthly rates. Some people are more apt to keep paying on monthly rates than to try to switch to another service. It's basically the AOL method from years ago.


But you have to keep the subscriber around that long; on monthly plans, they can leave anytime. So if this mysterious price for lifetime they don't think people are willing to pay were, for example, $550, and the alternative was $12.95/month, that's at least 42 months before monthly is a better deal for TiVo than lifetime.

In 42 months, is there a chance something better for that subscriber will become available and TiVo would then lose that subscriber?

Plus for TiVo to have the cash up front is another benefit... it's certainly been useful to them to date.

And it works even better for TiVo if someone owns 2 or more boxes with lifetime, since then you're comparing it to $6.95/month.

When is not offering lifetime at any price better for TiVo? When TiVo goes out of business and has to refund a portion of this fee to people.


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## DrStrange

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> But Product Lifetime at a price so high that in our tests it scared some people away entirely from choosing TiVo at all is a bad thing.


So, you're saying that some people who were presented with this imposing lifetime service cost would choose to avoid Tivo entirely rather then just go with a recurring plan, whereas without the expensive lifetime option the recurring fees were acceptable? (I'm not suggesting this is ridiculous - I can sort of see how it might happen.)


----------



## TiVoStephen

DrStrange said:


> I do wonder why you couldn't at least offer the option at whatever price for those who are willing to pay it, but I can accept that that may be so few people that it's not worth the the accounting, or the flack you'd be getting anyway for raising it to whatever you have to raise it to.


Bingo. You're 100% right about the reasons why we didn't do that. We debated it endlessly. And I mean I spent literally hours in 1:1s and meetings talking to lots of different folks, advocating keeping Product Lifetime at the much higher price. In the end, I agreed that it didn't make any sense and would be more difficult and confusing.

I did expect that today would not be a happy day for some of you, but I really appreciate that you went through the same reasoning we did.


----------



## Spiff

Malibyte said:


> OK...let me get something straight...I know this has been beat to death already, but I'm in a bit of a quandary here.
> 
> My S2 has a lifetime sub already. No problem.
> 
> My Humax is 3 months into the 23 months at $6.95/month (I bought it directly from TiVo and paid the bundled fee (December)). So, if I went with the lifetime option, I'd lose the 20 months I've already paid for, but wouldn't have to worry about it any more. I assume that if I don't go with lifetime on this machine, then at the end of the 20 months, I can simply continue paying the $6.95/month, as it's an existing contract? Or will it go up to $12.95 or whatever the going rate is for service only at the time?
> 
> Also, as someone has already mentioned, technology changes...I have a big HDTV downstairs, but since I'm on DISH, which doesn't offer TiVo, I have one of their HD DVR units on it, which isn't bad, but isn't near as versatile as TiVo. The two TiVos are on analog sets. If I went with lifetime on the Humax, it would take about 43 months to start paying off (assuming I could otherwise continue with the $7/month, and not counting the $140 I'd lose up front by going with lifetime now). Who knows what will be available then...the Humax may be as useful then as a '286 PC is now, and I might have HDTVs all over the house.
> 
> Can anyone offer advice? My gut feeling is to stick with my current setup, especially if I can continue at the $6.95/month rate at the end of next year.
> 
> Thanks...Bob


I could have sworn that I read on this board that you could, at any point, apply the balance left on your gift subscription toward lifetime. So, you'd deduct 3 months from what you paid and subtract it from $300, and that's what you'd have to pay to upgrade to Lifetime.

Stephen, could you confirm that or correct me if I'm wrong?


----------



## dgh

HannahWCU said:


> Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get? The _only _ good thing about Moxi box I have from Charter is its HD. Other than that, it sucks.


Originally I was thinking hard about getting an S3 this year. For now, I'll stick with the S1. It should be fine as long as I have SD. When I go HD (and I plan to be as late an adopter as possible - I still have a $1500 Betamax and a $2000 LD player in my video cabinet to remind me) then I'll look for something cheap. Hopefully a one-time cost piece of hardware if possible. Since I'm currently on Dish, I'll take a look at whatever they have. I might even ask joe123 for advice 

The bottom line is, back in 1998 when I first heard about ReplayTV and TiVo, I heard that ReplayTV had a one-time price and TiVo had a monthly payment. I had zero interest in TiVo until I was at CES in 1999 skeptically visiting their booth and heard about lifetime. Once I knew they had lifetime, it was worth comparing features. Before that, the cost difference was so great that I couldn't even bother to look at a feature list. It'll be the same way next time. You have to at least be in the ballpark on price before I'll pay attention to much else. You don't have to be the absolute cheapest but a TiVo on monthly is around 10 times as expensive as a TiVo on lifetime so that greatly changes the whole decision process for me.


----------



## dtreese

Hey, I was pretty nonplussed when I started reading this thread, but I see a bright side here.

For a young, scrappy company in the middle of the tech bust, lifetime service was a bold thing for TiVo to offer. It showed confidence in the company's prospects, the product and the service offered. Since then, TiVo has added quite a bit of value to that service, and they have been very supportive of after-market modification of hardware and software, within reason (having "no theft of service" as pretty much the only rule is pretty darn liberal).

Fast forward to now. TiVo has subscribers in the millions, and it's been shown that their hardware is, for the most part, quite durable. With hard drives, fans and power supplies replaceable without too much work, these units could last a very long time. In the meantime, TiVo must continue to provide service to these units. While it's bold for a startup to offer services in perpetuity for an up-front fee, the fact that this is no longer a viable proposal for TiVo is a good thing. It means that TiVo is at a point where they are looking that far down the road. It means TiVo is here to stay.

I would think long and hard before getting lifetime on another S2 TiVo, anyway. It would be another 4 years before the subscription would turn in my favor (2 units already under lifetime means $7/month). By then, I'll be out of medical school and will be able to afford HD. By then, SD will be much less desirable. I really don't think that anyone's getting the shaft, here. There's a time period, albeit a short one, to purchase units before the change, and a grace period for current customers. 

I'm not slobbering-happy about this announcement, but $84 for an 80-hour unit doesn't suck. It just doesn't. I prefer my free 40-hour unit (instantly made much larger), but that was last year's deal.


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## Purduecoz

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us,


This is what confuses me. If you allow people to switch to service only pricing at the end of their "free" Tivo + monthly service fee contract period, why would anyone take the 3 years @ 16.99 / month option as opposed to the 1 year @19.95 / month option? Don't get me wrong, I love the ability to go to the cheaper monthly subscription fee once you've fulfilled your contract, but it doesn't make financial sense to me.

Assuming both subscribers changed to the 12.95 / month subscription only at the end of their contract period, a 3 year @16.99 / month subscriber would have paid a whopping $370 more than the 1 year subscriber all because they didn't want to pay $36 more in that first year!

Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Purduecoz


----------



## tidal

:down: :down: :down:

Being a loyal TIVO customer with a series 1 TIVO, I was looking forward to a S3 with lifetime sub but now I will not.

This new price structure plus the fact that S1 owners are CONTINUOUSLY left out of updates I will not be buying a S3.

"Hey look... I can look at pictures or listen to music or get the weather on my TIVO"
"Wow... Lemme check mine. Oh wait I have an S1 Thanks TIVO"

[/end rant]


----------



## TiVoStephen

morac said:


> I think I know the answer but I just want to check. My existing lifetime S2 TiVo will not be affected by the new pricing scheme and if I went out to a retail store and bought another TiVo I would still qualify for the MSD correct?


Yes.



> BTW I would think this new pricing scheme would cause the resale market of existing lifetime TiVos to sky-rocket. I know eventually they will all break, but in the shortrun it seems like TiVo is shortchanging itself.


What should we have done instead, not honor existing Product Lifetime contracts? Given that we have no choice but to no longer offer Product Lifetime, I think we're doing the best possible implementation.

EDIT: Bad grammar


----------



## ADent

If you can really convert your 'Free' box to regular Service Only ($13/month) sub then this is very good news for TiVo.

My cubemate hates rebates and was not too interested in paying $250 for a 80 hr box then $300 lifetime (or $13/month).

Now he can just get a 'Free' box and pay monthly then convert to $13/month (or 3yr prepay) later.

As long as they continue to straight out sell boxes, then this is additional options to existing plans and a good idea.

The only bummer is the totally seperate No More Lifetime.


----------



## mattack

HannahWCU said:


> Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get?


Again, I'm definitely going to re-evaluate things when S3 comes out.. But for me, sticking with my S1s and/or getting more _manual_ hard drive/DVD recorders after the S1s die isn't out of the question. I've said many times in the DVD recorder forum that I wish my DVD recorder had the features it has (that Tivo doesn't) but also the Tivo software.. Because the Tivo software is more reliable for what it does.

But without a lifetime subscription option, I very very strongly will consider more VCR-like recording, just on digital media rather than videotapes.

(And this is from someone who originally was very much a "why would I want the service?" person, but very quickly became addicted to Tivo and evangelize it.. But not enough to pay monthly.)


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## TiVoStephen

Lampei said:


> Just wanted to confirm one thing
> 
> If we have a lifetime gift card, we *will* be able to use it on the Series 3 when it comes out, correct?


Correct.


----------



## Sevenfeet

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Fair enough. I think you're right. When I quoted Tom, his full quote had more details and was pretty similar to what you said.
> 
> I agree with you. I know many people want Product Lifetime -- I'm one of them. And I'm sorry, but it's true, we can no longer afford to offer Product Lifetime at any price that consumers would find reasonable. I'm definitely sorry that that's the case, but we did announce a number of different payment options which I'm personally excited by and which our testing has shown are very popular.
> 
> Close enough, I hope?
> 
> For people here, who have been used to the idea of Product Lifetime for seven years, and who may have already set aside money for a Series3 plus Product Lifetime, I recognize that today's news is not good news for you.
> 
> But will you all please accept (at least the possibility) that it's good news for the company and therefore in turn all of us here (except for those who are here and work for the competition) by making TiVo a stronger, more profitable company with faster growth?


I have to agree that this is a very good and long overdue move for Tivo. One of the biggest revenue mistakes that Tivo made was offering Lifetime service in the first place. At the time, it seemed like a good idea. It hooked early adopters into a fledgling technology. It provided Tivo with a windfall of extra cash in the early days. And it was very popular with customers. I was one of them who opted for a Lifetime subscription for my first Series 1 box in July 1999 at the then-price of $200. At that rate, my lifetime price would be "paid for" in less than three years.

But the Lifetime subscription idea was born out of some lousy revenue assumptions. First was that we early adopters would move on to future boxes as technology got better and get new paid service. That happened sometimes, and many of us got more boxes and bought more Lifetime subs. But there is a fixed cost to supporting the Tivo service for every box in the field. And as time went on, the Lifetime subs were becoming a burden on the entire revenue stream. Yes, many early adopters bought new boxes, but Tivo allowed us to transfer Lifetime sub to them in some special offers. And for many of us, we kept those older boxes going and going long after Tivo management in 1998 ever thought we'd be using them.

In my case, my Series 1 Sony SVR2000 is still chugging away 7 years later on my toddler's TV acting as a dedicated "The Wiggles" server. I'm leeching off of Tivo's service now, since my Lifetime stopped becoming positive revenue for Tivo in 2002. Even those of you who purchased Series 2 boxes and paid more for Lifetime subs have been around long enough to be a drag on Tivo's revenue stream now. And you wonder why this company is losing money? If all the Lifetimers were paying $12.95 a month to this day, would Tivo be in the black?

A long time ago, Apple Computer was in this predicament. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, Apple was in a serious predicament and as we find out today, a desperate cash crisis. Many of us remember the stock deal that Apple did with Microsoft to raise $150 million in cash. What you may not remember is about that time, Apple came out with a OS software revision, Mac OS 9.2. The big unpopular news was that Apple was charging full price for the upgrade. Up until that point, dot releases had been free (and years earlier, all OS software was free period!). We all grumbled about it, but we paid it not because we really needed it, but there was an admission from all of us die-hard Mac fans out there that at this time more than any, Apple really needed the money. And many of us went out and purchased the software whether we needed it or not.

Charging for OS 9.2 along with the Microsoft money gave Apple time enough to come out with the iMac in 1998....and as they say, the rest is history. Now Apple regularly charges for OS 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, etc and few people complain about it. Charging more often for OS releases stabilized the company's finances and allowed them to make enough cash to make better products to compete. Would Apple have been able to come out with the iPod and everything since if they hadn't gotten their financial house in order back then? You tell me.

Tivo is in trouble and we all know it. All of you people out there whining that you'll never buy another Tivo without Lifetime, I'm sorry, but you weren't a good customer to begin with. Good customers recognize that companies are in the business for positive cash flow, not altruistic moves designed to make you feel better. Lifetime subs should have been done away with in 2002-2003 and probably not done in the first place. But what's done is done. Tivo management is taking a bit of a risk doing away with the program, but considering the alternative, it's not much of a risk. I'm sure that Tivo management would love a white knight suitor to come and acquire them now. But will that happen is Tivo's financial house is still out of whack? You tell me.

Flame off.


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## dswallow

I think it boils down to spin.

Discontinue product lifetime, and you don't have people saying "TiVo raised prices" when product lifetime went from $299 to whatever even when monthly pricing stayed the same.

For that matter, why is there any charge for second or more units when the software could simply relay guide data over the network locally from the one subscribed unit to the others? If the hardware is paid for by the subscriber without subsidy, why not?


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## dtreese

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> What I'm saying is that we have not announced the pricing for bundled service where the bundle includes a Series3. Instead what we did announce today is pricing for a bundle that includes service plus the 80-hour standalone Series2 DVR.
> 
> However, I can confirm that if you have an existing monthly or annual subscription, or if you purchase any of the service-only monthly options or prepay options, or if you purchase the bundled service that we announced today, AND, later on you acquire a Series3 (perhaps at retail, for example), you can transfer your existing monthly service to the Series3 unit.
> 
> Let me give you a concrete example. Suppose you have monthly service on a Series2 (at $12.95 per month). And suppose you have monthly service on a Series1 (at $6.95 per month). And suppose that later this year when the Series3 comes out, you go to retail and purchase it. And then suppose that your Series1 unit explodes into green goo, due to a tragic lime jelly accident. You can call us up to transfer your service from the dead Series1 to the new Series3 you just bought. Your service cost is still $6.95 per month on that brand new Series3.
> 
> What I'm NOT saying (because it's not announced yet) is how much it would cost to get new service in a to-be-offered-in-the-future bundle that includes a new Series3.
> 
> Hope that's more clear.


That's what it sounded like, but it's potentially such a good deal, I wanted to make sure. People should really pay attention to that, it might make them a little more enthusiastic.


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## Malibyte

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> If you continue to own your Series2 with Product Lifetime on the same account as your Humax, then yes your Humax will stay at $6.95 for the indefinite future.


Great... thanks very much, that's the answer I was looking for.



jmace57 said:


> That's what I am doing Malibyte, FWIW. Jim


Thanks, Jim. Decision made.


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## lajohn27

dswallow said:


> For that matter, why is there any charge for second or more units when the software could simply relay guide data over the network locally from the one subscribed unit to the others? If the hardware is paid for by the subscriber without subsidy, why not?


The terms of the Tribune guide data deal with TIVO prohibit exactly that. A licensing fee for the data must be paid for each box.


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## HannahWCU

Well said Sevenfeet!!


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## TivoFan

I understand why Tivo wants to get rid of lifetime (at some point the buyer ends up paying less for lifetime than they would have if they had gone monthly, but Tivo has to continue to service that customer indefinately with no additional income) That being said, I really don't want a monthly fee.

I've been really curious about MythTV, so I guess after the current Tivos die, that's what we'll do.


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## Spiff

Spiff said:


> I could have sworn that I read on this board that you could, at any point, apply the balance left on your gift subscription toward lifetime. So, you'd deduct 3 months from what you paid and subtract it from $300, and that's what you'd have to pay to upgrade to Lifetime.
> 
> Stephen, could you confirm that or correct me if I'm wrong?


Don't mean to talk to myself, but I was definitely mistaken.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3399367&&#post3399367


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## TiVoStephen

Spiff said:


> I could have sworn that I read on this board that you could, at any point, apply the balance left on your gift subscription toward lifetime. So, you'd deduct 3 months from what you paid and subtract it from $300, and that's what you'd have to pay to upgrade to Lifetime.
> 
> Stephen, could you confirm that or correct me if I'm wrong?


Sorry Spiff, you're wrong, that's never been an option, and today's announcements don't change how that works.

If you purchase a monthly gift subscription, you can (through next week, but not afterwards) choose to activate Product Lifetime at the time of activation.

You can change your mind within the first 30 days only.

After 30 days, gift subscriptions cannot be converted to Product Lifetime (although you can pay $299 between now and next Wednesday).

EDIT: Grammar (missing apostrophe), my eyes are getting tired.


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## morac

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> What should have done instead, not honor existing Product Lifetime contracts? Given that have no choice but to no longer offer Product Lifetime, I think we're doing the best possible implementation.


Of course TiVo should honor its existing Product Lifetime contracts. I'm just saying that this may hurt TiVo in the shortrun. I do think it will help TiVo in the long run (depending on a few factors such as the TiVo-Comcast deal).


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## SullyND

The prepaid deals seem even worse when you consider the lack of the MSD...


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## Spiff

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Sorry Spiff, you're wrong, that's never been an option, and today's announcements dont change that.
> 
> If you purchase a monthly gift subscription, you can (through next week, but not afterwards) choose to activate Product Lifetime at the time of activation.
> 
> You can change your mind within the first 30 days only.
> 
> After 30 days, gift subscriptions cannot be converted to Product Lifetime (although you can pay $299 between now and next Wednesday).


Beat you by >>><<< This much! 

Thanks for answering, and sorry for getting my facts wrong.


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## MickeS

I too HATE monthly fees.

It is this month exactly 3 years since I went lifetime with my TiVo. If this new pricing scheme had been in effect back then, this month is when I'd have to either start paying $13/month, or pay another $469 upfront... to keep using what I had been using "for no monthly fee" up until now. That doesn't exactly create a warm and fuzzy feeling.



Stu_Bee said:


> Do we whisper the last part after the word "Free"?
> 
> PS. Hey, You can get a new Car for totally FREE for just $350 a month.


 I actually saw a car ad a couple of years ago that was even worse - it listed all the cars really cheap, but looking at the fine print, it said that prices reflected the cost after a down payment of $5k (don't remember the number exactly, but it was several thousand). : So basically it was "This car is only $15k (if you also opay another $5k)". Very creative.


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## hangtime79

Longtime lurker on this board but this topic brings me out.

Philosophical question for you Stephen.

I'm getting my MBA right now and actually going to work in Revenue Management this summer so I know a little bit about the psychology of pricing. Also, I have worked in a couple of projects with lifetime subscription-type problem, underpricing.

Here's my question. You stated earlier that in your consumer testing that the $300 price point was driving folks off. I can certainly see that and you guys have the data to backup it up but why would you then advertise the "pre-payment" of 1,2,3 year service agreements then at prices "above" the older lifetime subscription price. Aren't you guys just begging for question you don't want answered at retail. "Yea, you used to be able to pay $300 forever but now you have to pay $469 for three years." - BestBuy Clerk

You and I know that $300 was only for that series and you had to purchase the hardware, but JQ Public doesn't understand that and neither does the 19 y/o at BestBuy. So why even have the option ESPECIALLY when on the surface the pricing looks to be quite dissimilar? I think you're about to get some serious customer and channel confusion. I hope you guys are ready to answer those types of questions.


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## Purduecoz

davezatz said:


> I'm guessing they figure a certain percentage of people won't know or won't bother to switch the rates. If so, there's something sketchy or devious about it... but I guess that's what they have to do to survive. The three-year prepaid plan works out to to be just a little more costly than current 80 hour after rebate ($70) at $12.95/mo for 36 months. Every other iteration ends up costing even more - essentially TiVo has raised rates with this announcement.


Reading between the lines here, and noting similar questions going without answer, I'm suspecting that the announcement of the $12.95/mo service only fee going up at least another three dollars should be out around this time next week. 

- Purduecoz


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## morac

SullyND said:


> The prepaid deals seem even worse when you consider the lack of the MSD...


That's assuming they will keep the $150 rebate around. Currently a 80 hour tivo goes for $219.99.

TiVo w/ 1 year MSD service = $219.99 + + 12 * 6.95 = 303.39
TiVo w/ 1 year service = $219.99 + 12 * 12.95 = $375.39
TiVo w/ 1 year new play = $224 prepaid or $239.40 (total for 12 monthly payments)

So unless the rebates are more than $79.39 then the new pricing scheme is a better bargain for MSD.

In any case the new scheme is better for new TiVo customers since they save $151.39 over the current purchase plus service plan. Even if the $150 stays around a new user still saves $1.39 and does't have to go through the hastle of submitting a rebate. Note that the current web deal is $225.39 for an 80 hour TiVo with 12 months of service which is nearly identical to the new pricing scheme.


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## VOLFAN

_However, I can confirm *that if you have an existing monthly or annual subscription,* or if you purchase any of the service-only monthly options or prepay options, or if you purchase the bundled service that we announced today, AND, later on you acquire a Series3 (perhaps at retail, for example), you can transfer your existing monthly service to the Series3 unit.

Let me give you a concrete example. Suppose you have monthly service on a Series2 (at $12.95 per month). And suppose you have monthly service on a Series1 (at $6.95 per month). And suppose that later this year when the Series3 comes out, you go to retail and purchase it. And then suppose that your Series1 unit explodes into green goo, due to a tragic lime jelly accident. You can call us up to transfer your service from the dead Series1 to the new Series3 you just bought. Your service cost is still $6.95 per month on that brand new Series3._

So if I understand the above quote correctly- if I purchase a Series 3 later this year my cost is 6.95 per month (msd) since I have a Series 2 on lifetime? (switching tonight) Correct?

Also, thanks for the advance grace period / info Tivo (upgrading to lifetime). I'm pleasantly surprised with the advance notice. Most companies would have just made an announcement and put it on their CSR's to shaft the customers.

<><


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## TiVoStephen

hangtime79 said:


> You stated earlier that in your consumer testing that the $300 price point was driving folks off.


Nope, I didn't say that. I said testing of the new price point that we would have to introduce (much higher than $299) was scary in testing.


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## disco

Okay, I only need to know one thing:

My father has an older S1 TiVo, for which I'm currently paying $12.95 per month, with NO COMMITMENT. After this new pricing goes into place, will I be required to make a "COMMITMENT"?? If so, I may have to call and cancel.. I'm not comfortable with being forced into a "commitment" after this box has been active for 2-3 years without one...


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## davezatz

hangtime79 said:


> You and I know that $300 was only for that series and you had to purchase the hardware, but JQ Public doesn't understand that and neither does the 19 y/o at BestBuy. So why even have the option ESPECIALLY when on the surface the pricing looks to be quite dissimilar? I think you're about to get some serious customer and channel confusion. I hope you guys are ready to answer those types of questions.


80 hour after $150 rebate is $70... so $369 for a Lifetime of TiVo versus $469 for three years. There's not a whole lot to answer... bottom line here is TiVo is raising rates. It just happens to coincide with these new payment methods that people seem to prefer according to the TiVo research.


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## polarys

Can anyone confirm (or deny) if the new pricing plan will be available in Canada? The mail-in rebate offer was never available to Canadians, making it too expensive for many people. But if the new pricing plan (free box + monthly sub) applies to Canada as well, I know a lot of fellow Canadians who are ready to buy.

Marc


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## lessd

The main reason the TiVo should consider offering lifetime at some price is two fold

1) At some price it would profitable for TiVo.....say $500 to $600 for lifetime

2) With lifetime the TiVos would retain good value if it had to be sold. (A friend of mine sold a S1 with Lifetime last year on E-Bay for $320, than bought a S2 DVD unit putting lifetime on it. If he had paid monthly he would have gotten what $30 and paid TiVo $620. So even at a high price I think TiVo should offer it, remember a Comcast HD cable box with 90h of normal TV or 15h of HD recording cost about $22/month with a lifetime warranty on the hardware, and free hardware upgrades (I have had one already) and they come to your home if their is a problem.


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## TiVoStephen

Purduecoz said:


> Reading between the lines here, and noting similar questions going without answer, I'm suspecting that the announcement of the $12.95/mo service only fee going up at least another three dollars should be out around this time next week.
> 
> - Purduecoz


Heh! I can't make forward-looking statements, and I honestly don't know when/if the price of monthly will go up (we raised it four years ago, so it does makes sense that it might go up some day in the future) but how about I let you rest assured that next week we will NOT be raising the monthly price of $12.95 per month (with one year commitment).

Since I can't make forward-looking statements, I cannot comment about after next week. (No company can tell you that the price will never go up.)

You won't get me or Pony answering most of the speculative posts about the future, sorry.


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## MickeS

I think that these new price plans are good ONLY if you compare with the previous monthly sub from TiVo.

But if you compare vs lifetime + mail-in rebate, the new plans lose.

Fortunately for TiVo, new customers will by and large NOT make that comparison.

However, they WILL compare it to the competition - and a new customer sees "like TiVo" for $10 and "TiVo" for $17,19 or $20. They aren't looking at the media extras TiVo have, because they either don't need them, or don't think they'll need them.

EDIT: of course, the cable DVR price also requires Digital Cable, so the total monthly fee is probably going to meet or exceed TiVo's fee. I've mentioned this on the board before, but I hope TiVo really makes an effort to get this message out - most cable users still have analog cable.

I think TiVo will still have a tough sell, but they've had that for a while now, with the upfront hardware cost, and then $13/month, and mail-in rebates are a hassle. Maybe people actually will buy TiVo now. I hope so, because I want my lifetime sub to be worth something for a long time.


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## TiVoStephen

VOLFAN said:


> So if I understand the above quote correctly- if I purchase a Series 3 later this year my cost is 6.95 per month (msd) since I have a Series 2 on lifetime? (switching tonight) Correct?


I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's not quite what I said. As Tom Rogers said in the call today, we're not ready to talk about Series3 pricing plans yet.

I did confirm that when the Series3 launches later this year, you will be able to transfer an existing monthly contract to a Series3 you purchase at retail (including any remaining commitment period).

EDIT: Clarification.


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## TiVoStephen

disco said:


> Okay, I only need to know one thing:
> 
> My father has an older S1 TiVo, for which I'm currently paying $12.95 per month, with NO COMMITMENT. After this new pricing goes into place, will I be required to make a "COMMITMENT"??


Nope. The one year commitment was introduced last year, applying to new and reactivated contracts. Existing monthly subscriptions that don't have a commitment, then as well as today as well as next week, do not have any term commitments. Call us to cancel any time with no penalty (but we hope you don't).


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## TiVoStephen

polarys said:


> Can anyone confirm (or deny) if the new pricing plan will be available in Canada? The mail-in rebate offer was never available to Canadians, making it too expensive for many people. But if the new pricing plan (free box + monthly sub) applies to Canada as well, I know a lot of fellow Canadians who are ready to buy.
> 
> Marc


Marc, I actually don't know the answer to this. I'll have to get back to you, sorry.


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## userbr

Then:
I have used a Tivo for four years, and plan on using my current lifetime service for years to come (If Tivo lasts (DIVX)). I am hooked. I Love Tivo. I recommend it to everyone. Tivo is a great value. I have researched Series 3 and can't wait.

Now: 
Tivo is a great product but now, since they changed their pricing, is not a good value anymore. Still a great product, but I, and several million other prospective Tivo customers, are price conscious and contract sickened. I will not be buying a Series3 if they don't offer lifetime service. Let's face it, there are several hardware/software companies out there that can make another great product for us to choose from. There are several good products already there. As soon as Apple (Mini), Cisco (Scientific Atlanta), Microsoft (XBOX, next generation), Sony (PS3), HP (Media center), .. I could sit here all night and that's just the big guys (Tivo wasn't/isn't a big guy)..., anyway, there are going to be very rough seas waiting for Tivo to be smashed to sink to the bottom of the "Once a great technology product" ocean. They need to appeal to a multiple array of customers. Not everyone wants to pay monthly, just as, not everyone wants or can pay upfront. But with this price increase and recursive payment method, they will not succeed!


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## jerobi

Very interesting thread. Kudos to the Ops for sticking it out - it can't be fun and I can think of a lot of companies I wish we had a more direct line to.

That said, the writing was on the wall for lifetime disappearing. I guess that time is near. I just read all ten pages so far, starting off angry and confused, then moving to a middle ground opinion. I'm okay with people paying more if they don't call to get the $12.95 rate - that's the case with anyone who doesn't read the fine print on a major purchase, sadly. 

What I do get out of that is that TiVo might eventually start raising our monthly fees a bit. The future sales success and percentages of these new subscription plan boxes will guide their actions on that decision. If they find a bunch of people happy to pay $17-20/month on those plans, then they might risk raising the regular monthly $12.95 rate by a few bucks to make it closer and pocket a few bucks.

Would some people leave? Sure. Would people complain here? Definitely. But we're a smaller, (I'd hope) smarter percentage of users and we all know it. Maybe a good number of folks would keep on paying higher rates.

That doesn't sound like a smart way to go, though. This is a service that should be getting cheaper as competition rachets up in a major way. Companies don't like lowering fees. Here's hoping that TiVo thinks long and hard on the next step, as I'm certain they will with market studies. They're still the best game in town, but that gap quickly narrows in the technology biz. When someone comes along to offer 80% of the service at half the price, people will switch. I dropped my phone bill and switched to Triple Play when I got fed up paying $40/month for local service and one or two LD calls a month, and I'll do the same to any other service if the price and features are right. TiVo leads the pack so far, and a price adjustment or service improvement in either direction would factor heavily in people's monthly billing decisions. TiVo has kept rates the same and added features lately, which is a wise move to me as a customer.

I've been a loyal customer and fan for a long time, but everyone reaches a point where price outweighs goodwill. I hope that point for TiVo remains far out into the future. Good luck in the tough times ahead, TiVo. It won't be easy.

(But hey, according to the press you've been six months away from dying for what, four or five years now? )


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## davezatz

userbr said:


> Let's face it, there are several hardware/software companies out there that can make another great product for us to choose from. There are several good products already there. As soon as Apple (Mini), Cisco (Scientific Atlanta), Microsoft (XBOX, next generation), Sony (PS3), HP (Media center), .. I could sit here all night and that's just the big guys (Tivo wasn't/isn't a big guy)..., anyway, there are going to be very rough seas waiting for Tivo to be smashed to sink to the bottom of the "Once a great technology product" ocean.


If TiVo wins this patent case against EchoStar the tides of your rough seas could be changing...  They could end up rolling in licensing fee cash from Dish, DirecTV, Motorola, Cisco, Microsoft, etc. Then they could reinstitute Lifetime.


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## Purduecoz

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Heh! I can't make forward-looking statements, and I honestly don't know when/if the price of monthly will go up (we raised it four years ago, so it does makes sense that it might go up some day in the future) but how about I let you rest assured that next week we will NOT be raising the monthly price of $12.95 per month (with one year commitment).
> 
> Since I can't make forward-looking statements, I cannot comment about after next week. (No company can tell you that the price will never go up.)


That's fair enough. To this point, I feel like TiVo has made improvements in their service enough to warrant the monthly fee they charge. That was a major reason why when my DirecTiVo died on me, I went with a stand-alone TiVo instead of getting the free DirecTV DVR (without TiVo). The interface and reliability is just unmatched. I just really do hope that the multiple machine discount stays around for the long haul - I'm not sure I could take the brunt of two (or more!) full TiVo subscriptions. I'd liken that to paying DirecTV a full subscription for each receiver I own.

I'm hoping that these changes give TiVo what they need to get profitable, healthy, and continue into the future.

And thank you for the time you spend answering questions in this forum. This announcement of new plans would be even harder to navigate than it seems now without you guys around helping out.

- Purduecoz


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## VOLFAN

TiVoOpsMgr,

Thanks for the info... I guess? Oh so cryptic around here tonight. hehe

Seriously, (TiVoOpsMgr) your first sentence coupled with your last has me more confused. 

I own one Series 2 (purchased Dec. 05) which is currently on monthly. I am anxiously awaiting the Series 3 release. My ideal situation now is to upgrade my Series 2 to Lifetime and add the Series 3 for 6.95. But after reading your cryptic response I'm not sure what to do.??

If I follow what you said, then my safest option is to purchase another Series 2 (which I don't want to do), add it to my account for 6.95, then transfer it to the Series 3 when it's released. I'm sure several people here are in my situation... Why can't Tivo at least throw us a bone and answer this straight... Can I add the Series 3 to my account for 6.95 / Is it even in discussion? _Hey, we're giving up lifetime for you - ya' know. hehehe_

Seriously, thanks for your help TiVoOpsMgr!


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## userbr

davezatz said:


> If TiVo wins this patent case against EchoStar the tides of your rough seas could be changing...  They could end up rolling in licensing fee cash from Dish, DirecTV, Motorola, Cisco, Microsoft, etc. Then they could reinstitute Lifetime.


You are correct, to an extent. If you are familur with patents, all you have to do is change a fraction of the way the original patent works and call things a little different and then other companies can go on for years while they battle it out in court. I truely hope, for Tivo and happy customers, that Tivo succeeds. Although I don't agree with their new pricing model, it just doesn't make sense. They need to apply more focus on charging for advertising then charging end customers, look at Google's strategy! Every company has rough times but you certainly don't want to run off your loyal customers. All I think is, if they can piss off a dedicated current customer and deter them from purchasing a Series3, what are they doing for non enthusiasts.


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## hangtime79

davezatz said:


> 80 hour after $150 rebate is $70... so $369 for a Lifetime of TiVo versus $469 for three years. There's not a whole lot to answer... bottom line here is TiVo is raising rates. It just happens to coincide with these new payment methods that people seem to prefer according to the TiVo research.


That's you digging in to the numbers. Most folks when evaluating a product at retail do not figure that much (its quite scary really, go sit and watch customers in a Circuit City or Best Buy one day and ask how they made the decision to buy).

I have no problem with Tivo raising rates. Quite frankly it should have happened a long time ago, but like all companies that underprice in the market Tivo is going to have to do some channel and consumer education. The $300 lifetime is so ingrained in the channel and the additional prepayment options are just questions that do not need to be introduced.

My recommendation if you did want to have a prepaid option would be to put it on the website and unadvertised (think small checkbox at checkout). When you advertise the prepayment option you just invite unwanted comparisons. Wait 6 - 12 months then you can push the option. At that point the lifetime subscription will have left most of the average consumer consciousness (not anyone here of course but I digress) and the invitation to make comparisons would be a mute point. I think its just smarter to avoid the direct comparisons for awhile until you have some positive news to bury it with like S3 shipments.


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## hangtime79

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Nope, I didn't say that. I said testing of the new price point that we would have to introduce (much higher than $299) was scary in testing.


EOM


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## TiVoStephen

Volfan, I'm not going to quote your entire post, and I share your pain, but unfortunately I can't tell you what to do in this case. I am not allowed to confirm that you can do what you want to do. The only scenario I can talk about right now is the one I described in my example earlier. Sorry!


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## TiVoStephen

userbr said:


> They need to appeal to a multiple array of customers. Not everyone wants to pay monthly, just as, not everyone wants or can pay upfront.


Userbr, appealing to a wide array of customers is exactly why we're making this change. We tested the reception of the new pricing extensively. The pricing that goes into place next week tested far far better than what we offer today.

And we do exactly what you say -- if you don't want to pay monthly, we have prepay options. If you don't want to pay upfront, you can get a brand new DVR for no upfront cost and a low monthly fee.


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## Peter000

Crunching the numbers, It isn't isn't a bad deal (apologies if this has been done to death). First off, assume you're a new TiVo customer, the kind they are trying to attract. You buy the 80 hour hardware from Amazon, after the mail-in Rebate, for $70 (at the time of this post). 12x12.95 = 155.40. So a year for 225.40, with monthly bills. Look slightly familiar? $1.40 more than the new plan prepaid cost ($224) of ordering it from TiVo. Two years? 380.80 monthly, vs new plan 369 prepaid. Three years? 536.20 vs 469 new plan prepaid.

If you go the monthly route for a pre-ordered TiVo, that's where you get screwed. $440 for one year (there abouts).

The value of this plan really depends on how much the hardware will cost off the shelf. If there are no rebates offered, then the value goes up. 

I'm just hoping I can buy a Series 3 and get the service at 6.95 a month because of my existing lifetime series 2. If not, I'll go with another option for sure. I already have a Time Warner HD DVR as my main box... I hate it because there is only 3 days worth of listings available to search, but other than that it's fine for most of what I need (to record and watch shows in HD).


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## VOLFAN

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Volfan, I'm not going to quote your entire post, and I share your pain, but unfortunately I can't tell you what to do in this case. I am not allowed to confirm that you can do what you want to do. The only scenario I can talk about right now is the one I described in my example earlier. Sorry!


Thanks anyway!

Any timeframe yet on bundled / service pricing announcement for the Series 3? Summer / Fall?


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## Toeside

Stephen or Pony,

I believe this post answered this, but I want to make sure.

Say I buy a Series 2 80 hour TiVo under the new bundled pricing plan. Then I buy another at retail. Will that 2nd TiVo be eligible for MSD?

I keep reading that TiVos purchased under the new bundled pricing plan aren't MSD eligible, but that simply means they aren't eligible to be the _discounted_ receiver, but they do fulfill the "full priced" subscription requirement, correct?

Thanks!


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## loganizzi

Sevenfeet said:


> Tivo is in trouble and we all know it. All of you people out there whining that you'll never buy another Tivo without Lifetime, I'm sorry, but you weren't a good customer to begin with. Good customers recognize that companies are in the business for positive cash flow, not altruistic moves designed to make you feel better. Lifetime subs should have been done away with in 2002-2003 and probably not done in the first place. But what's done is done. Tivo management is taking a bit of a risk doing away with the program, but considering the alternative, it's not much of a risk. I'm sure that Tivo management would love a white knight suitor to come and acquire them now. But will that happen is Tivo's financial house is still out of whack? You tell me.
> 
> Flame off.


I'm a lifetime subscriber and I resent the comment that we are "not good customers" . We prefer to prepay without expiration because we are betting that over the long term it will be a better deal for us. It may turn out that it isn't but it is a risk we are willing to take. This does not make us a bad customer. By this reasoning the 3 year prepay to expire option offered by TiVo makes them a bad service provider. The reason being that I could choose that option and during some point of my 3 year contract TiVo could choose to lower the monthly rate, thus making my 3 year deal where I locked in less of a bargin.

Sorry but being a good customer doesn't mean paying more for something just because it will help out a companies bottom line. If that were so, then I would expect TiVo to offer me a price break on any/all of their services when I suffer economic hardship as well.

This is capitalism, I'm going to get the best price I can and if TiVo isn't going to give it to me, then I take my business some where else. I think that this makes me a great customer.


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## jchapman

Not that TiVo is listening, but I *was* willing to spend up to $1000 on a series 3, assuming that I would be able to buy a lifetime subscription for the hardware (whatever it might be). No lifetime subscription, no sale; It's that simple. I just won't accept paying a monthly fee for DVR service (even Tivo).

So I'll be spending $1300 (or more if necessary, if I had to choose today I'd pick up the $1500 or $2400 HP Media Center) for a new Vista Media Center with HDTV capture as soon as they are released. Tivo has lost (another) customer.


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## goony

For standard def fans: If the monthly SA price gets too steep there's always the option of DirecTV (if you can do the southwest-facing antenna deal).

I'd consider that before accepting a non-Tivo DVR solution.

If you can find non R10 S2 DTivos and hack them you've got most of the network functionality offered in the SA Tivos plus some that isn't. (Pretty much all except TTG). Dual tuners standard!  100% playback quality of original program (i.e. no choosing record quality because it records the compressed satellite signal). Secure remote access via web browser is doable. Phone line not really needed on hacked box... some people have 800+ days on their box without a phone call (guide data comes in via satellite).

$6/mo. DVR fee is _per account_, not _per box_. Each box (DTivo or a non-dvr receiver) is $5/mo. beyond the base box on your account.


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## quarkman97

One thing that sticks out in my mind as I read this is that Tivo will not leave us Series 2 Lifetimers out in the cold. 

I think they have something up their sleeve when the Series 3 comes out to reward us loyal followers and Series 2 Lifetime subscribers. If they are offering to transfer lifetime of a Series 1 to a Series 3, what's to stop them from doing this for us Series 2 lifers? Just the confirmation that a Series 1 --> Series 3 transfer exists gives me a glimmer of hope. 

It's a win-win if they offer transfers from Series 2 --> Series 3. They'll move more Series 3 boxes off the shelves and by transferring the subs, make us Lifetimers happy. And, heck, if they charge a transfer fee, they'd actually get more $$$ out of us Lifers that they thought they'd never see another dime from again. 

I'd do it in a heartbeat even if it cost $100. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with that opinion on this board. It would sure motivate me and a lot of Series 2 Lifetimers to buy a Series 3. 

I was going to write that's absolutely the only way I'd buy a Series 3, but then it hit me. 

If I don't buy a Series 3, what am I left with if I want to record HD? Besides a homebrew MythTV box, you are basically looking at going with the cable company's box and conforming to the same monthly pricing structure that Tivo just adopted. Yeah it might be $5-$10 more, but to be able to have the functionality and the UI that Tivo does in HD, I'd definitely pay that much more for it. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm there with all the Tivo brothers and sisters to mourn that this day has finally come. But, let's face it, Tivo was taking a bath on lifetime, so they had to get rid of it. If you still want it, go get it! It'd be different if they didn't give us a week to go purchase it and just dropped it like a rock and said "Sowwee!" 

After reading all the posts and rationalizing it, I understand why they are getting rid of lifetime. I believe they are approaching it from a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" pricing structure in regards to the cable companies. 

I wholeheartedly agree that it is easier than pie to tell the cable company to charge you an extra $15 a month and waltz out of their offices with their DVR. 

Howevah, when the Series 3 comes out this Fall and levels the playing field with the cable company's DVR, you can finally compare apples to apples. You can then drop the argument about dual tuners with HD and look at how much better the UI and the core features that Tivo offers (MRV, MP3/image streaming, Tivo To Go--Back, SATA expandable HD) and realize how superior a Series 3 is than the cable co's DVR. 


I also belive they announced this pricing structure change today, because they are setting the stage for the pricing structure for the Series 3. Because if they up and changed the pricing structure right when the Series 3 comes out, I'm sorry to say we'd have an even bigger mutiny on our hands. 

With this announcement, we can adjust to the new way they are doing things and plan ahead for the Series 3. 

As soon as the Series 3 comes out, the playing field is level. As long as the pricing for it stays within $5-$10 of the cable co DVR, I'm going to be down. Period. 


That's all I gotta say. Hope it made sense because it took me a good half an hour to post everything that was floating around in me noggin after reading all of todays posts.


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## TiVoStephen

Hiya Toeside, long time no see.


Toeside said:


> I believe this post answered this, but I want to make sure.
> 
> Say I buy a Series 2 80 hour TiVo under the new bundled pricing plan. Then I buy another at retail. Will that 2nd TiVo be eligible for MSD?


In a word, yes.


> I keep reading that TiVos purchased under the new bundled pricing plan aren't MSD eligible, but that simply means they aren't eligible to be the _discounted_ receiver, but they do fulfill the "full priced" subscription requirement, correct?
> 
> Thanks!


Yup! I know it's a bit confusing, but you're right, they are not eligible but we do consider bundled units to be "qualifying units" in that they make any other monthly units in your household eligible for MSD.

When the FAQs and so forth are published next week, I think folks will have an easier time with all this.

Best regards,
Stephen


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## TiVoStephen

jchapman said:


> Not that TiVo is listening, but I *was* willing to spend up to $1000 on a series 3, assuming that I would be able to buy a lifetime subscription for the hardware (whatever it might be). No lifetime subscription, no sale; It's that simple. I just won't accept paying a monthly fee for DVR service (even Tivo).
> 
> So I'll be spending $1300 (or more if necessary, if I had to choose today I'd pick up the $1500 or $2400 HP Media Center) for a new Vista Media Center with HDTV capture as soon as they are released. Tivo has lost (another) customer.


We're listening. I'm sorry you feel that way. I do urge you to keep an open mind and as soon as we can announce Series3 pricing, we will.


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## TiVoPony

Toeside said:


> Stephen or Pony,
> 
> I believe this post answered this, but I want to make sure.
> 
> Say I buy a Series 2 80 hour TiVo under the new bundled pricing plan. Then I buy another at retail. Will that 2nd TiVo be eligible for MSD?
> 
> I keep reading that TiVos purchased under the new bundled pricing plan aren't MSD eligible, but that simply means they aren't eligible to be the _discounted_ receiver, but they do fulfill the "full priced" subscription requirement, correct?
> 
> Thanks!


Absolutely correct. The retail box that you purchased would be eligible for a multi-service discount, as the free box on the bundled plan is your qualifier.

Pony


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## Resist

Aflat said:


> If they get rid of lifetime, then I just bought my last Tivo box ever.


I agree! But since I still haven't gotten my $150 Tivo rebate that I mailed in last December and here it is March, this may have been my last Tivo anyway.


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## Malibyte

Some of what TiVo is doing I can grumblingly agree with because we all know they're in rough straits at the moment. Some of it I'm not so happy with, but, hey, I can't ***** too much. I've been playing around with the new S2 s/w upgrade, and hey, I like the podcasts and the 'net radio streams. So if it means that I'll eventually have to pay a few bucks more, so be it, as long as they keep improving the s/w and the service. They can't do that if they're going under.

Props to Stephen for hanging in there today...he's been getting pummeled but still made the effort to give us as much information as they'll let him. Thanks.

Bob


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## TiVoPony

jerobi said:


> What I do get out of that is that TiVo might eventually start raising our monthly fees a bit.


I'll echo what Stephen said earlier - I also can honestly say that I don't know when or if our monthly pricing will go up (or down for that matter).

Crystal balls are overrated. 

Pony


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## dgh

loganizzi said:


> I'm a lifetime subscriber and I resent the comment that we are "not good customers"


Do you know what the credit card industry calls people who routinely pay off their balances?

Deadbeats.

Why? They don't make much money off them. They like the people who pay the minimum and just late enough to also get the late fee.

Don't worry about it. He's just trying to give you his impression of the industry view of you. You should try to be a great consumer and watch out for your own interests while the companies watch out for theirs.



loganizzi said:


> This is capitalism, I'm going to get the best price I can and if TiVo isn't going to give it to me, then I take my business some where else. I think that this makes me a great customer.


That's the way.


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## remotecontrol

I hate the new news honestly. I just bought my Tivo last month and got the lifetime. I can see where Tivo is coming from, with the lifetime. But honestly I think this buries them(I hope I'm wrong). I think they think way too much of themselves. The average joe is just going to get the cable or satellite dvr. They don't want to deal with all the yearly commitments or higher monthly fees. They'll just rent the satellite dvr for $5 or the cable one for $10 and be done with it. And I think their dvrs will get better and close the gap. I will use my tivo until it dies and then switch to whatever the cable company provides.


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## megazone

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999?


If it were, say, $499 - I'd bite. And that doesn't seen unreasonable for lifetime (service-only), say $549-$599 for lifetime bundle. That would be on trend for 4 years based on the pricing of 1-3 years, and expected service life has always been 4 years.

It isn't just not having any recurring billing, it is having equity in the unit and the resale value it brings. If I buy a unit for $469 for 3 years, use it for 3 years, and sell it - it is probably worthless. Since hardware is often down to $50 after rebates new, and free refurbs, units with no sub may as well be landfill. But if it has lifetime then I can by the new Series4 and sell my old box to someone else and recoup close to the lifetime value. (I sold a used S2, several years old, for $250 last fall - with lifetime of course.)

That does matter when I'm making the purchasing decisions. The old decision was basically rent or buy, and now it is rent or lease. You've taken away the ability to establish permanent equity in the unit to raise the value of the box permanently.

I definitely understand why you did it, and I'm not going to make some dumb statement about never buying another TiVo - I still plan to get a Series3 - but I am upset by the change and would've rather seen the price significantly raised than to have the option remove. Hell, if the price is raised - the value of the box at resale is that much higher!


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## HDTiVo

*TiVo's old Pricing was Profitable*



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> We're no longer a scrappy startup, but we're still scrappy and we have to be a profitable company. Some of the same people criticizing us here in this thread for removing Product Lifetime also ding us in other threads for not being profitable. As Tom said in today's conference call, the new pricing goes a long way to making TiVo a more healthy and successful company.


*TiVo's Financials*
I know TiVo's financials very well. TiVo makes money on subscribers at the old pricing levels, including the $299 Lifetime w/$69 for an 80hr box. Indeed on past earnings calls, when TiVo's all-in costs were higher, the Net Present Value of a subscriber was described as quite positive. So TiVo can't tell me, or the others in this Forum that TiVo needed one more dime per subscriber to make a profit.

*TiVo's Profits per Subscriber*
On a twelve month basis, in FY05 it cost $2.99/mo to service a subscriber. That number FELL to $2.25/mo per sub in FY06. That's right, what it costs TiVo to provide service to a customer FELL $.74/mo this past year vs. last year. An 80hr with Lifetime for $368 up front cost maybe $160 for the box - TiVo's average cost of hardware sales per gross sub addition - plus $2.25/mo for service and falling. At a constant $2.25, TiVo still makes money up to 92+ months out on a subscriber/box. That doesn't count the fact TiVo had the $368 from day one and paid the $2.25/mo over 92 months.

*TiVo's Break-even Subscriber Level for FY06*
In fact, TiVo made enough money per subscriber under the existing price regime, that if it had had an average of less than 450,000 more SA subs in FY06, the entire company would have broken even. * And that includes monies spent on the patent litigation. * TiVo's ARPU was $8.83/mo in FY06. Subtracting the $2.25/mo in service cost, the marginal profit per additional sub was $6.56/mo. Dividing this into a 12 month loss of $34.4M means with under 450,000 additional SA subs, The entire TiVo company is break-even. TiVo would have been break-even for FY06 if it had averaged 1.71M instead of 1.27M subs.

*TiVo's problem is not its pricing, its problem is its number of subscribers is insufficient to pay for the whole company's costs. *

*$999 for Lifetime?*



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999? Our testing for the new price (not $999, but I can't tell you what it would have to be to be profitable) showed that it was not at all popular.


What drugs are y'all on over there? 

Under the new plan if I bought a box for 36 months for $469 and then bought a box 3 years later for $469, I'd be up to $938. It would take 5 more months at $12.95 to get to just over $999.

Now that doesn't take into account that TiVo would not get $999 day one, but $469 would come in 36 months later and the other $65 would come in months 73-77. AND TiVo would be out the cost of TWO boxes instead of one AND really I'd buy a 3rd new $469 box in month 73 anyway, so by the time TiVo collected $999 it would be out the hardware cost of three boxes. By the time TiVo recovered the cost of the TWO EXTRA boxes (in total dollars _over time _ - not up front,) TiVo will be out to something like month 95-100.

So TiVo is saying it would rather get $1400 in three installments (years 0,3,6 - _provided they keep the customer_) for _three _ boxes for 9 years of service, than get $999 all upfront for _one _ box that lasts on average 6-7 years - and with the changes in technology will in all likelihood not be in use after 6 years, even if it does still work. Take away the $300+ cost of the extra two boxes and you're down to a speculative $1100 vs $999 over 9 years even if the lifetime box survives that long! By the way, TiVo's accounting takes a 4 year life on its boxes.

*Evangelizing TiVo's New Pricing*



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> The most popular option, and one that you will see marketing around, is a free 80-hour box for only $16.95 per month with a three-year commitment. They tell you they don't want a monthly fee? You reply with the fact that they can get a box and a year of service for just $224.
> 
> You don't have to go through EVERY option for every pitch you make to your friends.


As far as the new pricing regime and evangelizing it, I cannot in good conscience tell prospective new TiVo customers that a TiVo is as good a deal as it was. I can't tell people who don't want to pay a monthly fee that they can get a box with no monthly fee for $224 _when I know after 12 months they're going to pay a monthly fee._ I can't tell people who want to pay monthly that $16.95/mo is as good a deal as $12.95/mo was - even if they are getting the higher capacity box for $69 less than before. _I can't say an extra $48 per year is worth saving $69 up front._

*I was very supportive of the business models of both all upfront and all monthly pricing, but the prices TiVo has picked exceed my ability to endorse. Furthermore, TiVo has not adopted an all upfront model - marketing speak aside. *

*In conclusion, I cannot support the new pricing initiative as TiVo has constructed it. I was very enthusiastic in advance of the idea, and would have been a strong advocate going forward under different circumstances.*


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## manielse

jerobi said:


> Very interesting thread. Kudos to the Ops for sticking it out - it can't be fun and I can think of a lot of companies I wish we had a more direct line to.


Couldn't have said the above statement better myself.

I've sat back for several hours now, started to rant and then chose not to submit a few times. I do have to voice my opinion (of course) but my intention is not so much to rant but more so to express my concerns.

I think my biggest confusion is.....why make this change now? What is mean by that is, was this the most strategic move for TiVo? Politically to existing customers, TiVo could have made this announcement go MUCH smoother.

We all know TiVo is pretty close to releasing a S3 line. Why didn't they make the pricing structure (including discontinuing lifetime) when they release the new Series? I'm really scratching my head at this because I think the backlash would have been far less if they simply stated that Series 3 will not have a lifetime option. This would have been a pretty cut and dry discussion if this was the statement.

Now, I'm already a frustrated customer that was most likely going to look at other options when both my Series 2 machines died. No matter what, when it comes to making a new purchase, you always have to weigh options when the time comes (I don't care if it's a car or which brand of soda do I buy).

My story with TiVo is pretty similar to many:
Started with 1 Series 1 box with LifeTime through eBay (loved it)
Series 2 came out and had a one time chance to transfer Lifetime to S2 and reluctantly bought the new box (turned out to be great move)
HME came out, bought that feature
Saw the benifits of HMO, bought second TiVo with DVD-R feature with Lifetime and bought second HMO option (still happy)
Found out in very fine print that HME transfered shows could not be burned with DVD-R recorder (first real frustration point)
TiVo announces that HMO is now free and early adopter were SOL (actually was pretty ok with this)
Found JavaHMO which got me hooked to the future of TiVo and began coming on TiVoCommunity boards
HMO becomes HME (JavaHMO becomes Galleon and other apps begin development)
TiVo-to-go comes out (made me more upset with TiVo transfers to DVD-R issue even though I know limitations).
HME contests begins (at this point I'm extreemely happy with the exception of my DVD-R issue).
Contest ends, awards given, half the winners we can't use apps.
We hear the Netflix partnership is on back burner (big setback)
Apps.tv comes out, had promise but mostly games arrived. (Big deal) TiVo mum about HME development support.
Go to Digital Life conference, felt that Pony didn't want to be bothered
Rocketboom and IFC stuff comes out (see potential of tech but crappy content)
New Yahoo and other HME apps arrive, most Galleon does better (though I love streaming Podcasts)
Leon decides to put brakes on Galleon (Big Red Flag here as TiVo still hush on HME, did Leon get pissed about future announcements?)
Find out TiVo partners with Verizon on some crappy scheduling service for a monthly rate when they simply could have built a free WAP friendly scheduling site (would only takes days to build)
Now this....

Now I wrote my life experience here because I feel that it's most likely somewhat similar to many in this thread had experienced. We all loved TiVo for what it was, but are concerned about how it has treated us at times.

So that leads me to today. If I can transfer my lifetimes to the future Series 3 boxes, I will most likely do that assuming I can afford the hardware. Having said that, I haven't seen anything in S3 that makes me really want it (but I said that with S2 which I was wrong). If I can't transfer, I will use my existing boxes as long as I can without paying monthly charges. At that time, I will lean towards something that doesn't have monthly fees over something that does. As far as I'm concerned, I avoid monthly (or yearly) charges as much as I can if there are other options even if they are slightly behind in technology. It's strickly a Cost vs Value assessment and a one time fixed price is always much easier to deal with. Not many homeowners "lease" things such as computers. Of course that one time price needs to look more attrative that alternatives including "leasing your service".

Seeings as this is already a long post (and I hope I got TiVo's attention), I want you to realize that this logic is going to be far more that just "the power users" on this board. Being that I work for an advertising media company, I can tell you that the average consumer looks for bargains and things that are simple. Many look for sales and use things such as direct mail to make decessions. Sure you can use the model that you have chosen but be careful of other brands that start selling more attractive pricing options. The term "TiVo" has become a household name but don't be fooled that the term refers directly to your brand. As more cable/sat/iptv companies begin offering Video on Demand services, it makes using the TiVo remote harder (hense more frustrating) and their DVR service easier. If companies like HBO or PPV start making impossible to "time shift" or set "time to live" lengths, it will affect TiVo (and HBO) subscriptions. As computers become even more common in living rooms, it becomes a threat to TiVo.

What I'm trying to get at is this move WILL NOT save TiVo both in the short term nor long term as a stand alone company. I'm very concerned with your R&D vs bigger fish coming your way. You need to embrace projects like Galleon as they are truely extentions of your internal R&D staff.

I hope this didn't come off as the harsh rant I was gonna post earlier....

Best Regards and Good Luck,
Mark


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## peteypete

Wow, Pony and Stephen puttin in the overtime to keep the edge off!! Good work guys. 

I'm torn about getting lifetime on my second unit, before next wednesday. A gut feeling tells me that the machine will last year and years and that I should do it and in 5 years I'll regret not having subbed it...but I don't have 300 bucks lying around. 

Killing lifetime has created an interesting divergence, It makes the hardware worthless in itself and it makes current lifetime more valuable because of future scarcity.


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## tivoland3

PREDICTION: In under 18 months TiVo will no longer be supplying hardware. They will find it isnt cost effective. They will try to supply software to cable providers and charge the monthly fees. Of course most cable providers already have solutions so that will mean TiVo will continue to be unprofitable.

TiVo will be run into the ground by the CEO in under two and half years. By then we will all have moved on to our cable providers HD solutions or we will be using Media Center type computers. This is the beginning of the end for TiVo. Bad decisions for many years by TiVo management has slowly positioned the company on a failing path with no signs of correction.


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## TiVoStephen

peteypete said:


> Wow, Pony and Stephen puttin in the overtime to keep the edge off!! Good work guys.


Thanks! My eyes are quitting on me, so I'll see you all tomorrow when I can (busy day).


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## TiVoPony

tivoland3 said:


> PREDICTION: In under 18 months TiVo will no longer be supplying hardware. They will find it isnt cost effective. They will try to supply software to cable providers and charge the monthly fees. Of course most cable providers already have solutions so that will mean TiVo will continue to be unprofitable.
> 
> TiVo will be run into the ground by the CEO in under two and half years. By then we will all have moved on to our cable providers HD solutions or we will be using Media Center type computers. This is the beginning of the end for TiVo. Bad decisions for many years by TiVo management has slowly positioned the company on a failing path with no signs of correction.


Sorry you feel that way, tivoland3. I can assure you that here at TiVo we don't share the same view of the future.

It seems that TiVo is consistently in a can't win situation with the folks here. We're either criticized for not taking action, or criticized for taking action. We've taken action.

The current pricing plan is designed to increase subscribers, and move TiVo to profitability. Period. If the new plans aren't for you, that's ok. We know we can't please everyone.

As Stephen has pointed out, there's a lot of choice available in our new plans. For those of you worried about consumers being confused by all of this...remember that there's no rule that says we have to promote every option equally. My cable company has lots of packages, and several tiers of service. But when their ad drops into my mailbox, it's all about the single tier/package they're pushing.

If you're concerned about lifetime going away, hey, we understand. It was a great deal. It lasted for many years. Longer than I ever thought it would last. But it's not something that we'll be offering after next week.

So lifetime is gone, and you may feel the deal is not quite as sweet. Or that new box might not be as eBay-able down the road (but then again, who knows?). The new deals are nothing shabby, as several people here who enjoy doing the math have shown. They're good. An 80 hour box for the equivalent of $84. No rebates. Or buy the box yourself, and the deal stays the same, $12.95/mo.

We're not looking to sit still. We've been growing, but faster is better. And this path, this course correction, is designed move us faster and make us stronger.

Cheers,
Pony

(edited out an extraneous word...oops)


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## undertow

Stephen, hopefully, you realize that a lot of us appreciate your answers to all the questions that have popped up (especially with the tone of some of the posts in this thread). 

I'm trying to decide whether to go with a standalone Tivo or stay with DirecTV Tivos and I'm hoping you can shed some light on the future of DirecTV Tivos. I've read that the contract with DirecTV will end in February of 2007. As it stands now, does this mean that DirecTV Tivos will no longer be usable after that? If so, is there any chance that Tivo will renew it's contract with DirecTV to allow them to continue to function?


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## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> On a twelve month basis, in FY05 it cost $2.99/mo to service a subscriber. That number FELL to $2.25/mo per sub in FY06. That's right, what it costs TiVo to provide service to a customer FELL $.74/mo this past year vs. last year. An 80hr with Lifetime for $368 up front cost maybe $160 for the box - TiVo's average cost of hardware sales per gross sub addition - plus $2.25/mo for service and falling. At a constant $2.25, TiVo still makes money up to 92+ months out on a subscriber/box. That doesn't count the fact TiVo had the $368 from day one and paid the $2.25/mo over 92 months.


Is that $160 the SAC? You're also looking at just operating cost - but operations need to produce enough revenue to cover operations *and* all corporate overheard. Being cash positive strictly on an operational basis doesn't make the company profitable.

TiVo amortizes the lifetime over 48 months. Using $2.25/month for operational cost, and $160 SAC, that's $268 in cost on $368 in revenue. So they realize a whopping $100 operational profit from that user. Wow. And that declines if the box is in use for longer than 4 years. Then that goes to cover non-operational costs, and is quickly wiped out. It has been obvious for a while that lifetime is a very good deal, and a number of people, myself included, have speculated that it would be going away, or increasing in price, for a while now. I'm not surprised to see it go - disappointed, but not surprised.



> TiVo's problem is not its pricing, its problem is its number of subscribers is insufficient to pay for the whole company's costs.


Or, to look at it another way, if they can realize more revenue per subscriber then they need fewer subscribers to be profitable. You have two curves - number of subscribers and revenue per subscriber. At some point the intersection makes the company profitable. If you can raise revenue per subscriber while increasing subscribers, you can hit profit with fewer people.

Same with airlines - for them two major factors are the load factor - how full they can keep their planes - and the ticket price. An airline that can pack their planes full can get by with lower fares than one with empty seats.



> What drugs are y'all on over there?


What kind of drugs are YOU on? Did you even read what he posted? The $999 figure was a random example, he said it was *NOT* $999 - he was just using it as a figure that was way too high, and that he couldn't reveal the actual value. So harping in the $999 figure is just silly.



> As far as the new pricing regime and evangelizing it, I cannot in good conscience tell prospective new TiVo customers that a TiVo is as good a deal as it was.


That's fine - compared to lifetime it is NOT as good a deal as it was. Plain and simple. I don't think it is a *bad* deal now, just not as good as it was.



> I can't tell people who don't want to pay a monthly fee that they can get a box with no monthly fee for $224 _when I know after 12 months they're going to pay a monthly fee._


And you know this how? They have the option of going monthly, or opting for a service-only pre-paid option of 1, 2, or 3 years. The pricing on those hasn't been revealed yet, but I would expect it to average out to less than $12.95/month as an incentive to pre-pay.



> I can't tell people who want to pay monthly that $16.95/mo is as good a deal as $12.95/mo was - even if they are getting the higher capacity box for $69 less than before. _I can't say an extra $48 per year is worth saving $69 up front._


The best value will be to pre-pay for 3 years - based on the pricing info we have now, the pre-paid service-only plans might change that. If someone wants to pay month by month, then I'd have to recommend the 1 year $19.95 plan, then drop to $12.95. Doing that saves $60 over the 2 or 3 year monthly plans, over their full terms.


----------



## TiVoPony

undertow said:


> Stephen, hopefully, you realize that a lot of us appreciate your answers to all the questions that have popped up (especially with the tone of some of the posts in this thread).
> 
> I'm trying to decide whether to go with a standalone Tivo or stay with DirecTV Tivos and I'm hoping you can shed some light on the future of DirecTV Tivos. I've read that the contract with DirecTV will end in February of 2007. As it stands now, does this mean that DirecTV Tivos will no longer be usable after that? If so, is there any chance that Tivo will renew it's contract with DirecTV to allow them to continue to function?


The cutoff in Feb of 2007 should not impact the use of your existing DIRECTV with TiVo DVR systems.

That said, it's DIRECTV's service, their business. We can't really commit on their behalf. This question is likely better served if you ask DIRECTV.

Pony


----------



## dswallow

I'll agree with the positive comments about Stephen and Pony in this thread. It must just be a big pain to repeatedly be dealt these cards by the company you work for. Over and over again you have to put a positive spin in abysmal news and meatless announcements.

I'm disappointed that TiVo is apparently taking lessons from DirecTV in how to "improve" a business model.


----------



## undertow

TiVoPony said:


> The cutoff in Feb of 2007 should not impact the use of your existing DIRECTV with TiVo DVR systems.
> 
> That said, it's DIRECTV's service, their business. We can't really commit on their behalf. This question is likely better served if you ask DIRECTV.
> 
> Pony


Thanks for clarifying, Pony. I was worried that DirecTV would no longer be able to legally provide guide data. With all the price changes at DTV and Tivo, I guess I've got some numbers to crunch...


----------



## TiVoPony

dswallow said:


> I'll agree with the positive comments about Stephen and Pony in this thread. It must just be a big pain to repeatedly be dealt these cards by the company you work for. Over and over again you have to put a positive spin in abysmal news and meatless announcements.


Now Doug, you know that Stephen and I don't believe that.

If we really felt that our company was feeding us bad stuff to spin, neither one of us would work here. I guarantee you.

Perspective is a funny thing though, and I don't begrudge you yours. In reading your post though the perspective that came to my mind was "Work is ok. And our plans are fine. But then, I do lots of other stuff than the forum. If the only thing I did all day was deal with the forum...now that would fit Doug's definition of a big pain". 

Notice the smiley.

Pony


----------



## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> Is that $160 the SAC? You're also looking at just operating cost - but operations need to produce enough revenue to cover operations *and* all corporate overheard. Being cash positive strictly on an operational basis doesn't make the company profitable.
> 
> TiVo amortizes the lifetime over 48 months. Using $2.25/month for operational cost, and $160 SAC, that's $268 in cost on $368 in revenue. So they realize a whopping $100 operational profit from that user. Wow. And that declines if the box is in use for longer than 4 years. Then that goes to cover non-operational costs, and is quickly wiped out. It has been obvious for a while that lifetime is a very good deal, and a number of people, myself included, have speculated that it would be going away, or increasing in price, for a while now. I'm not surprised to see it go - disappointed, but not surprised.


The $160 is the "cost of hardware revenues" divided by the Gross Sub Adds - the closest I can come to the cost of a typical box. The rest is fully answered in the financial sections.



megazone said:


> Or, to look at it another way, if they can realize more revenue per subscriber then they need fewer subscribers to be profitable. You have two curves - number of subscribers and revenue per subscriber. At some point the intersection makes the company profitable. If you can raise revenue per subscriber while increasing subscribers, you can hit profit with fewer people.


I am just pointing out the they didn't _have _ to raise prices to survive. There was another way.



megazone said:


> What kind of drugs are YOU on? Did you even read what he posted? The $999 figure was a random example, he said it was *NOT* $999 - he was just using it as a figure that was way too high, and that he couldn't reveal the actual value. So harping in the $999 figure is just silly.


The kind of drugs that demonstrated lifetime could continue to be offered at or near the old $299.


megazone said:


> That's fine - compared to lifetime it is NOT as good a deal as it was. Plain and simple. I don't think it is a *bad* deal now, just not as good as it was.


I'm saying the same thing.


megazone said:


> And you know this how? They have the option of going monthly, or opting for a service-only pre-paid option of 1, 2, or 3 years. The pricing on those hasn't been revealed yet, but I would expect it to average out to less than $12.95/month as an incentive to pre-pay.


Because that's what happens at the end of the contract that refers to. Your expectation of monthly pricing does not to conform with what has already been explained by TiVo employees.


megazone said:


> The best value will be to pre-pay for 3 years - based on the pricing info we have now, the pre-paid service-only plans might change that. If someone wants to pay month by month, then I'd have to recommend the 1 year $19.95 plan, then drop to $12.95. Doing that saves $60 over the 2 or 3 year monthly plans, over their full terms.


Your calculations are correct.


----------



## SnakeEyes

What would happen if I decided after a few months I just wanted to pay off the remaining amount? Can I do that, and at that point could I switch to the service only price or would I still have to pay the contract price for each month remaining?


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## IcerC

I will buy 3 more and lifetime em but that will be it. I will have to see what will happen in the future. No Tivo, No TV all together no monthly bill for cable or tivo.


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## dswallow

lajohn27 said:


> * The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
> month or $224 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
> month or $369 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
> month or $469 prepaid


Let's examine the cost of each option for a 3-year period...

*One year commitment*
Paid monthly ($19.95/month for 12 months, $12.95/month for 24 months), $239.40 + $310.80 = $550.20
Prepaid ($224 for 12 months, $12.95/month for 24 months), $224 + $310.80 = $534.80

*Two year commitment*
Paid monthly ($18.95/month for 24 months, $12.95/month for 12 months), $454.80 + $155.40 = $610.20
Prepaid ($369 for 24 months, $12.95/month for 12 months), $369 + $155.40 = $524.40

*Three year commitment*
Paid monthly ($16.95/month for 36 months), $610.20
Prepaid, $469

So in order of cost...

3 year prepaid, $469
2 year prepaid, $524.40
1 year prepaid, $534.80
1 year monthly, $554.20
2 year monthly, $610.20
3 year monthly, $610.20

Notice that the monthly plans seem counterintuitive? It's cheaper to commit to 1 year than it is to commit to 3 years. The only thing potentially going for it is protection from a price increase, I guess.

I might even venture to say they expect to increase prices for the monthly service-only subscription in about a year.


----------



## LarryInAz

What ever happened to the KISS way of doing business?

Keep It Simple Silly

Too many option, too much confusion - customer keeps walking...  

:down: :down: :down:


----------



## cwerdna

I finally made it through the long thread! ACK!

:down: :down: :down: regarding the new pricing plans.  Wow. 

I understand the business side and the fact that you guys HAVE to make profit to survive, but it was already a tough enough sell (for me) to convince people to pay $50 for a Tivo after rebate and $300 for lifetime. They most certainly did NOT want to pay $12.95 or whatever amount/month. So, it'll be MUCH tougher to convince them go to w/this pricing structure. I also agree the new structure is WAY too confusing and will confuse consumers. Those who knew about Tivo, its previous pricing, didn't hear this news and didn't buy will be SHOCKED. They will seriously be alienated and look for alternatives.

I agree the attitude that we people already feel nickeled and dimed enough by everyone's fees (insurance, utilities, cell phone, etc.) 

TivoOpsMgr and TivoPony, thanks for putting up w/all the criticisms, including mine. I still love my Tivos but boy, I really hope you guys made the right choices here.

I'm at a point where I might have to scoop up a Series 2 w/lifetime or two before the cutoff as none of my units are getting any more software updates. I have to move in the near future and it might be somewhere where DirecTV is impossible.


----------



## blindlemon

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Really? Even if it was, say, hypothetically, $999? Our testing for the new price (not $999, but I can't tell you what it would have to be to be profitable) showed that it was not at all popular.


Maybe, but who were you testing this with?

People who don't already have a TiVo, I can see, might be put off by an apparently high price for a Lifetime Sub - but those of us who have had multiple TiVos for a number of years know and understand the benefits of the product so well that, if we don't like montly bills or service contracts, we might still be prepared to pay it.

What's the risk? Set the price at an economic level (for TiVo) and add it to the list of options available. Even if you only get 100 takers per year, that's 100 happy customers you might not otherwise have had - and if the price is realistic you won't be losing money either


----------



## SnakeEyes

cwerdna said:


> I understand the business side and the fact that you guys HAVE to make profit to survive, but it was already a tough enough sell (for me) to convince people to pay $50 for a Tivo after rebate and $300 for lifetime. They most certainly did NOT want to pay $12.95 or whatever amount/month. So, it'll be MUCH tougher to convince them go to w/this pricing structure.


Selling lifetime was attractive to some but more people were subscribing monthly. They don't like paying a lot up front if they don't have too. Which is another reason why this makes sense.

Are you saying getting people to pay $219.99 upfront plus another $300 for lifetime, then wait for $150 of that to come back to them months later is easier and more desired than staggering the cost over a year or more with simple, payments of less than $20 a month?

You are paying only $15 more for the TiVo but removing the huge up front cost. Do the math. 19.95x12=$239.40; $12.95x12=$155.40; $239.40-$155.40=$84 for the TiVo. If you prepay it comes to $68.60 for the TiVo.

I see this price system as sort of an extension of the popularity of using store credit cards for items for higher dollar items. Only with TiVo's pricing plan you don't pay interest.



> I agree the attitude that we people already feel nickeled and dimed enough by everyone's fees (insurance, utilities, cell phone, etc.)


TiVo service fee has always existed, you were just lucky to be an earlier adopter and got an incredible deal from TiVo. How many other types of service providers do you know that offer lifetime?


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## SnakeEyes

LarryInAz said:


> What ever happened to the KISS way of doing business?
> 
> Keep It Simple Silly
> 
> Too many option, too much confusion - customer keeps walking...
> 
> :down: :down: :down:


So it won't be simple when someone logs on to TiVo.com and sees "Buy an 80 hour TiVo and 1 years worth of service for only 19.95 a month for one year"?


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## cwerdna

SnakeEyes said:


> Selling lifetime was attractive to some but more people were subscribing monthly. They don't like paying a lot up front if they don't have too. Which is another reason why this makes sense.
> 
> Are you saying getting people to pay $219.99 upfront plus another $300 for lifetime, then wait for $150 of that to come back to them months later is easier and more desired than staggering the cost over a year or more with simple, payments of less than $20 a month?
> 
> You are paying only $15 more for the TiVo but removing the huge up front cost. Do the math. 19.95x12=$239.40; $12.95x12=$155.40; $239.40-$155.40=$84 for the TiVo. If you prepay it comes to $68.60 for the TiVo.


Take the rebate out of the equation and assume you're receiving the rebate check.

I was talking about $50 after rebate for a 40 hour + $299 for lifetime. Under the new "scheme", the cheapest is $469 for 3 years prepaid. So, already at 3 years, the total cost of ownership (TCO) is higher and I would keep having to pay $12.95/mo or whatever the monthly fee is at that point.

Which would you have? 
$350 and that's the end of it vs. $469 + $12.95/mo (or more) until you stop using the box


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## HDTiVo

SnakeEyes said:


> So it won't be simple when someone logs on to TiVo.com and sees "Buy an 80 hour TiVo and 1 years worth of service for only 19.95 a month for one year"?


I think the harder one is the person that wants no monthly fee because I tell 'em $224 for a year - oh and its an annual fee of $224*; or a fee of $469 every three years. I don't know how to do that, even if I thought it was a good deal.

The straight monthly fee is not so bad, provided you remember to call to switch to $12.95 on time.

* Edit: that makes no economic sense. Economically, after one year that person should pay $12.95 per month...and there goes that monthly fee they didn't want in the first place.


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## cwerdna

I still see the 40 hour refurbs at http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp. With this new scheme does "Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation." still apply assuming we upgrade to lifetime before the cutoff next Wednesday 3/15/06?


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## SnakeEyes

cwerdna said:


> Take the rebate out of the equation and assume you're receiving the rebate check.
> 
> I was talking about $50 after rebate for a 40 hour + $299 for lifetime. Under the new "scheme", the cheapest is $469 for 3 years prepaid. So, already at 3 years, the total cost of ownership (TCO) is higher and I would keep having to pay $12.95/mo or whatever the monthly fee is at that point.
> 
> Which would you have?
> $350 and that's the end of it vs. $469 + $12.95/mo (or more) until you stop using the box


What you and I want is not important. The minority doesn't dictate business, or at least shouldn't. Most subscribers are not lifetime. This price plan is geared toward the consumers that want to put up less money up front to get a TiVo.


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## greg_burns

cwerdna said:


> I still see the 40 hour refurbs at http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp. With this new scheme does "Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation." still apply assuming we upgrade to lifetime before the cutoff next Wednesday 3/15/06?


I hope so. I ordered mine on 2/24 (with a backordered Tivo adapter) and am now sitting on pins and needles waiting for it to arrive.


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## bferrell

Alright, I waded through the thread, and I think I understand but want to make sure.

I've got a lifetime S2, so that's all good. Was gonna buy (was begging to, really) a S3, but am very shaky on that now. Since you can't speculate about Series 3, let's say I got a new S2... I order it with "no money up front" and pay the higher monthly fee. If it breaks, I think you guys said that I have to get it repaired. Is that seriously right? I mean, I've got the SA8300HD now, and though I'm not excited to pay Tivo $X a month (a higher number than my 8300 which was supposed to be a stop-gap to get to the S3) for the rest of my life, I would consider it if it had the same 'replace for free if it breaks or the hardware improves' service that I get from TW. If I'm on the hook for the hardware, though, and the fee is higher, you've gotta be kidding me! Why on earth would I do that? Tivo is awesome, but it is not that awesome. Throw me a bone here, Tivo, *I want to Believe*.


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## SnakeEyes

You own you TiVo, TW owns your 8300.


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## dirtypacman

If Tivo is removing/did remove an option for lifetime service I think its a bad bad idea.

I think lifetime was the smart choice for alot of consumers and would hate to see that option void.


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## bryan314

TiVoPony said:


> It seems that TiVo is consistently in a can't win situation with the folks here. We're either criticized for not taking action, or criticized for taking action. We've taken action.
> 
> The current pricing plan is designed to increase subscribers, and move TiVo to profitability. Period. If the new plans aren't for you, that's ok. We know we can't please everyone.


From the reactions I'm seeing in this thread Tivo isn't pleasing anyone. I'd expect a fair change in pricing plans to generate a mostly positive reaction. Or at the very least a roughly 50/50 for/against reaction. This forum is made up of very loyal customers and I'm not seeing that.

I think the problem is that general perception is that as a company matures, pays off initial R&D, fixed overhead is spread out over ever increasing customers, reduced costs from hardware suppliers (especially in the computer industry) , and so on, *the cost goes down. *

Tivo's change has a perceived *increase*. Not good.


----------



## rainwater

dswallow said:


> But you have to keep the subscriber around that long; on monthly plans, they can leave anytime. So if this mysterious price for lifetime they don't think people are willing to pay were, for example, $550, and the alternative was $12.95/month, that's at least 42 months before monthly is a better deal for TiVo than lifetime.


But you know what is going to happen right? When your contract is up, if you don't renew at the ridiculous price you are paying, they will try to sell you another contract. Believe me, they will be getting a lot more than the current $300 for lifetime.


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## SnakeEyes

rainwater said:


> But you know what is going to happen right? When your contract is up, if you don't renew at the ridiculous price you are paying, they will try to sell you another contract. Believe me, they will be getting a lot more than the current $300 for lifetime.


what ridiculous price?


----------



## skaeight

And now the scale officially swings back into Directv's favor. I was planning on going cable / tivo once the series 3 came out, however D* will be way cheaper once these new plans take affect.

TiVo is as good as dead now. Who is seriously going to pay $20 / month for one tivo box? I'll take the extra $15 and get HBO or something. Who are they kidding? They're not selling programming, they're selling a service. I think they were overpriced at $12.95 / month, but the lifetime subscription made it tollerable, pay once and foget about it. Also, the multibox discount was nice too. 

They've just handed the market to cable/ satellite companies. Don't get me wrong, I love the TiVo interface, etc. however it's not worth $20 / month to me. No way.

I also just realized that a mythtv box just got a lot more economical. It used to be cost prohibitave because a refurb tivo plus lifetime service came out to be less than all of the required hardware for a mythbox. I don't know. It was nice knowing you TiVo.


----------



## SnakeEyes

skaeight said:


> TiVo is as good as dead now. Who is seriously going to pay $20 / month for one tivo box? I'll take the extra $15 and get HBO or something. Who are they kidding? They're not selling programming, they're selling a service. I think they were overpriced at $12.95 / month, but the lifetime subscription made it tollerable, pay once and foget about it. Also, the multibox discount was nice too.


Who is going to pay $369 for a TiVo when the cable company gives you one for on a few extra bucks a month!?


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## DCIFRTHS

SnakeEyes said:


> Who is going to pay $369 for a TiVo when the cable company gives you one for on a few extra bucks a month!?


A few bucks a month? Cablevision charges 10.00 in addition to the standard box rental.

What cable company charges a few dollars a month?


----------



## rainwater

SnakeEyes said:


> what ridiculous price?


How about $19.95 a month. At that monthly rate, they will get people who don't know better to keep paying it. That is the whole idea of the new plan. Some people say its confusing. Well of course. That's part of the plan as I see it. They offer 3 different types of contracts and once the contract is up, they hope to keep billing you at a higher rate than you have to pay. It's not hard to figure out.

Btw, I'm not sure how these new plans are appealing to consumers. When they see $20 a month for the "cheapest" plan, why would they not switch to a cable dvr?


----------



## rainwater

DCIFRTHS said:


> A few bucks a month? Cablevision charges 10.00 in addition to the standard box rental.
> 
> What cable company charges a few dollars a month?


I get digital cable + moxi dvr from Charter for only $15 over extended analog cable.


----------



## JuryDuty

I LOVE my TiVo. I can't imagine living without it. This next year I plan to get an HDTV and had planned to get a S3 TiVo to go with it...but this changes my thoughts.

I cannot imagine a $20/month fee. I wouldn't pay the $13/month fee. I would ONLY go for lifetime--it's a bit hefty to start out, but over time it pays for itself easy. But $20/month--or even $469 for a three-year contract is ridiculous when you have to pay that every three years!

Though it's not as easy-to-use or feature-friendly as TiVo, I would switch to my cable provider's $4.99/month DVR if they keep it that price...

This is an awful move.


----------



## HDTiVo

rainwater said:


> How about $19.95 a month. At that monthly rate, they will get people who don't know better to keep paying it. That is the whole idea of the new plan. Some people say its confusing. Well of course. That's part of the plan as I see it. They offer 3 different types of contracts and once the contract is up, they hope to keep billing you at a higher rate than you have to pay. It's not hard to figure out.
> 
> Btw, I'm not sure how these new plans are appealing to consumers. When they see $20 a month for the "cheapest" plan, why would they not switch to a cable dvr?


Someone's going to say the 'cheapest' plan per month is $16.95  And I get all your points. :up:

How is the $224 good for TiVo? Ex: Dude buys a new box every year and throws the old one in the trash. Does TiVo make money that way?


----------



## bferrell

SnakeEyes said:


> You own you TiVo, TW owns your 8300.


But that's excatly my point. Why? If they're going to a "machine's in the pricing" model, why not go ahead and make it a lease, where I can get a defective or outdated machine replaced, just like the TW model. That would make this much more palettable to me. Otherwise, I'm just getting the shaft, and Tivo has no future for me.

As I see it Tivo is marginalizing themselves. If I don't have to pay month-after-month, that beats cable's offering. If I get the same hardware (replaceable for free) and pay as I go deal, with better software, that beats cable. But if I have to pay as I go, and have to own the hardware, that's a losing proposition for me.


----------



## jlb

Wow. I read the article in USA Today in my hotel room and by the time I get to my client, the thread is 12 pages long....sheesh.....

Anyways, I want to first put a shout out to *TiVoPony* and *TiVoOpsMgr*. It's great that they are so active all the time on this board, and especially in this thread. It would have sucked to have found out this news, come to this board, and have no input from them, or anyone over there at TiVo.

That being said, I am not too upset about this situation. I'll try and explain why.

I have 2 S2s and both are on monthly. First one purchase was the ol' AT&T Series 2. To get over the WAF factor of paying for a new technology, we went monthly. Still on monthly. The unit is still going strong with no signs of failure at all.

Unit 2 is a freebie S2 I got from the Dockers/JCPenny deal several months ago. Activated at $6.95.

So, my pricing is not effected, as long as the monthly service only price stays where it is now. Even if it went up a few dollars I could stomach it.

Now, regarding the S3, since I am not a HD household yet, that may not have been a purchase I would have made, right off the bat. I wanted to hold out and see what happens with Comcast/TiVo.

Right now, I am paying $20/month to have two series two units active. Now, I don't know if I would buy a S3 for $$$ right now with other household costs. But if it were offered in a bundled pricing plan of $25ish, I would consider it, even without yet having HD as it would allow me to have one box in my system instead of two. For $30....maybe not. But I'll hold out hope.

Heck, as a non-HD household who is only paying $10/month for basic cable, I'll be happy to continue my current pricing as is.

And one other thing I wanted to comment on.......people keep saying, "when my current box dies that that that's it for me and TiVO". You are forgetting that most failures are due to HD failures. You can always get a replacement HD to fix your machine and not have to get a new box with a new plan. Don't forget that the Service ID of the box is tied to the motherboard and not the HD.

Also, the "no upfront fee for $XX.95/month" might just finally allow me to convince my Dad to finally get a TiVo. He hates paying so much for technology. He may go for the monthly though......

So, in conclusion, as a long-time subcriber from a non-HD household, I'm neither :up: or :down: on this. Let's see what happens with the service only pricing down the road, let's see what the offer for S3 pricing, let's see what happens with the Comcast/TiVo option down the road.........

And again, thanks to *TiVoPony* and *TiVoOpsMgr* for being so available to comment!!!!


----------



## mec1991

Thanks to Pony and Stephen for being thrown to the lions and making the best of a bad situation  

I have tried speed reading this thread but all the speculation and number crunching has my head spinning  

I apologize in advance if my particular situation has been addressed, but here goes:

I currently own a Sony S1 SA purchased off eBay with lifetime. It is in my name and registered at TiVo.com in my account there.

I originally owned a 20 hour Philips but sold it when I regretably purchased a S2 TiVo model, then switched that for a S2 Toshiba TiVo/DVD player which I also returned as the picture quality of both was simply not as good as the S1. 

I have been drooling over the S3 and still plan on purchasing one if the price is not prohibitive. 

My question (finally!  ) is this: will I be able to transfer the lifetime to an S3 on a one time basis? If not, will there be any pricing break whatsoever when I make the switch to the S3?

Thanks for any reply.


----------



## chain777

It sounds like a great deal...for Tivo. They get the best of both worlds: You pay for the hardware and maintain it in addition to paying in perpetuity, adding a never ending revenue stream. Brilliant, but flawed thinking. 

This model only works if there is no competition, or a mass of brainwashed people who can't see it for what it is...a desperate move by a desperate company. 

I was really hoping for the best for Tivo, and the series 3. Without the competition, the choices are going to be really pathetic for HDTV PVR's. I hope they wake up in time to recover from this horrible desicion...but my confidence is low.


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## dylanemcgregor

The old response to people who complained about Tivo's price compared to cable was that for many people the cable DVR was more expensive monthly when you took into account the hidden costs. This will no longer be true, many people will now be able to upgrade to digital cable and get a DVR for the same price as it would cost them to get a TiVo.

Tivo was a hard sell before (I never understood why, but it was). It is going to be next to impossible (at least for me) now. That's not saying I will tell people not to get it, but I'm not going to put much effort into convincing them it is cheap.

-Dylan


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## lajohn27

I'd say there is a strong concensus in this thread that perhaps a lifetime option should be considered by TIVO management.. regardless of price.

It seems there are some stalwarts here who would pay upwards of 600$ for lifetime.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:


> Stephen, how in the world is TiVo justifying the increase of cost in a TiVo box when it has had a hard time increasing subs already.
> 
> I could see this pricing on an S3 box but on an 80 hour single tuner SD TiVo.
> 
> if this plan had been in place when I was considering which DVR to get I would not today be a TiVo customer. I would have gone with a cable DVR.


That's exactly my point. I don't understand why they picked now to increase the price structure. Don't tell me it's because of the extra costs of providing Yahoo apps or Rocketboom. If there were some new services available to S2 boxes I could understand. But I highly doubt the Yahoo apps and Rocketboom are any incentive at all for users to buy a TiVo.

If someone is choosing between one of the TiVo price plans for a single tuner DVR and the cable company DVR, there is no question TiVo is going to lose. Perhaps if this price plan applied to the S3 hardware it would make more sense.


----------



## vman41

This pricing announcement has no relevance to me because I have zero interest in getting another series 2, and if I had no TiVo I'd have no interest in a DVR that could only record analog input.


----------



## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> I'd say there is a strong concensus in this thread that perhaps a lifetime option should be considered by TIVO management.. regardless of price.
> 
> It seems there are some stalwarts here who would pay upwards of 600$ for lifetime.


But TiVo doesn't want people buying lifetime on a S2 when the S3 will be available later this year and will certainly cost more. There's no profit in having to provide service to more S2 boxes for their lifetime. The big question is whether lifetime will be an option on S3 boxes.


----------



## MikeMar

lajohn27 said:


> I'd say there is a strong concensus in this thread that perhaps a lifetime option should be considered by TIVO management.. regardless of price.
> 
> It seems there are some stalwarts here who would pay upwards of 600$ for lifetime.


Yeah but if you sold it at $600, people would freak out and it would look bad for TiVo.

I can fully understand the no more lifetime, I can handle that.

As long as I can continue to get my 6.95 multi discount, my current lifetime stays the same, and when my girlfriend adds her Tivo to mine we can get the multi.


----------



## dcomiskey

I don't think they had a choice but to eliminate the lifetime pricing. It was a bad business model. I think what's worse is the delay on the S3. My skeptical side says we aren't going to see it until 07. 

I really wish I could see a way out of this hole for Tivo, but having a hard time doing so. Hooking up with Radio Shack? Well, good, but they're also shutting 700 (or is it 7,000?) stores this year...


----------



## lajohn27

Rain:

Yeah, my post didn't make that clear.. I really meant for the S3 / digital tuner future.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

loganizzi said:


> Technology changes much to frequently, and I'm not ready to re-invest in a company like TiVo who is facing way too much competitition from cable companies with much more capital and resources on hand to take DVR's to the next level.
> 
> My next DVR will most likely be provided by my cable company or a build your own variety.


yes, the cable company DVR's seem to change at least 4 or 5 times a year and are so ahead of everything else 

bear in mind that dual tuners and HD were only possible to cable companies becasue they could put the cable box inside the DVR.


----------



## jlb

dylanemcgregor said:


> ......many people will now be able to upgrade to digital cable and get a DVR for the same price as it would cost them to get a TiVo.


I have existing boxes that won't be affected....but for argument's sake, let's say I was in the market for a new box with the bundle pricing....

I currently have Comcast basic cable w/o box for $10 per month. So for me, option 1 is to add a ~$20 TiVo. Or, I could get the Comcast DVR. But I would also have to upgrade my current service level of $10/mo to whatever the service level I would need to get the DVR........Granted, it's on the cusp, but TiVo would probably stil win out for me in this situation. And this is because I am a non-HD household at this point. If/when I go HD, then it becomes a different ball of wax, and then you can add S3 to the mix too.


----------



## rainwater

jlb said:


> I have existing boxes that won't be affected....but for argument's sake, let's say I was in the market for a new box with the bundle pricing....
> 
> I currently have Comcast basic cable w/o box for $10 per month. So for me, option 1 is to add a ~$20 TiVo. Or, I could get the Comcast DVR. But I would also have to upgrade my current service level of $10/mo to whatever the service level I would need to get the DVR........Granted, it's on the cusp, but TiVo would probably stil win out for me in this situation. And this is because I am a non-HD household at this point. If/when I go HD, then it becomes a different ball of wax, and then you can add S3 to the mix too.


The problem is, it seems TiVo was a great deal for analog users w/ the lifetime option and the big rebates. Now, it seems they are almost encouraging people to go to digital cable. For people who already have digital cable, the current pricing plans give you no incentive to get TiVo over a dual tuner dvr from the cable company.


----------



## tj722

Add me to the long list of dissatisfied long-time customers. I haven't posted in a while, but this brought me out of hiding.

I was considering getting someone a TiVo as a gift next month, but now I'm seriously considering against it. Why would I want to saddle someone with ANOTHER commitment (abeit down the road)?? 

I suppose TiVo is going to get my money eventually since once the Comcast DVR offers it as an option, I will probably get it.

I have an S2 (with lifetime) for my SD broadcasts and the (awful) Comcast DVR for HD. I was wanting an S3 but I am so fatigued with being nickled and dimed to death.


----------



## TiVoPony

dcomiskey said:


> I don't think they had a choice but to eliminate the lifetime pricing. It was a bad business model. I think what's worse is the delay on the S3. My skeptical side says we aren't going to see it until 07.
> 
> I really wish I could see a way out of this hole for Tivo, but having a hard time doing so. Hooking up with Radio Shack? Well, good, but they're also shutting 700 (or is it 7,000?) stores this year...


The Series3 is coming the second half of 2006. That was confirmed again in yesterday's earnings call. The schedule hasn't changed. No need to be skeptical. 

Radio Shack has huge reach - in many parts of the country they're the only option for local electronics. Partnering with them is a very good thing.

Pony


----------



## dylanemcgregor

jlb said:


> I have existing boxes that won't be affected....but for argument's sake, let's say I was in the market for a new box with the bundle pricing....
> 
> I currently have Comcast basic cable w/o box for $10 per month. So for me, option 1 is to add a ~$20 TiVo. Or, I could get the Comcast DVR. But I would also have to upgrade my current service level of $10/mo to whatever the service level I would need to get the DVR........Granted, it's on the cusp, but TiVo would probably stil win out for me in this situation. And this is because I am a non-HD household at this point. If/when I go HD, then it becomes a different ball of wax, and then you can add S3 to the mix too.


I'm in the same position as you are currently. But at my last place basic cable was $40 a month, The total cost of moving to digital and getting a Comcast DVR would have brought my monthly bill to about $60 a month. Which means it is pretty much on par with TiVo's current 1 year bundle pricing...but with Comcast there was:

*No 1 year commitment
*The pricing was hidden, the DVR fee was $5, the box rental was $5 and moving to digital was $10. So it looks cheaper, even thouigh it is the same cost.
*And the big one, there are a whole host of perceived added value benefits to getting digital cable besides the DVR, like more channels, VOD, HD, etc...

So pay $20 a month for TiVo and get the world's best single tuner DVR, OR pay $20 a month to Comcast and get an OK HD, dual tuner DVR and a bunch more channels.


----------



## akaye

I know it would be a pretty petty and selfish use for such a device, but, man, if I had a time machine, I'd go back and get lifetime on my Series 2 when I bought it 2 and a half years ago! Now, the unit is probably too old to justify it.

Hey, any chance of a loyal customer discount for this last week of Lifetime!?!?!


----------



## jlb

rainwater said:


> The problem is, it seems TiVo was a great deal for analog users w/ the lifetime option and the big rebates. Now, it seems they are almost encouraging people to go to digital cable. For people who already have digital cable, the current pricing plans give you no incentive to get TiVo over a dual tuner dvr from the cable company.


You're right. If I had digital cable and no TiVo, going with the Cable Co DVR would be a very likely option.

Let's see what happens with S3 pricing/options and the Comcast thing.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

Spire said:


> So increase the price. Even if the increase had to be substantial to make it work for TiVo, I'd probably still pay it.
> 
> Why do I feel so strongly about this? I just don't like monthly fees -- and I know that I'm far from alone.


I agree with this. no need to really market it if TiVo does not feel it useful but have it an option even at an increased price that informed consumers can use


----------



## jlb

dylanemcgregor said:


> I'm in the same position as you are currently. But at my last place basic cable was $40 a month, The total cost of moving to digital and getting a Comcast DVR would have brought my monthly bill to about $60 a month. Which means it is pretty much on par with TiVo's current 1 year bundle pricing...but with Comcast there was:
> 
> *No 1 year commitment
> *The pricing was hidden, the DVR fee was $5, the box rental was $5 and moving to digital was $10. So it looks cheaper, even thouigh it is the same cost.
> *And the big one, there are a whole host of perceived added value benefits to getting digital cable besides the DVR, like more channels, VOD, HD, etc...
> 
> So pay $20 a month for TiVo and get the world's best single tuner DVR, OR pay $20 a month to Comcast and get an OK HD, dual tuner DVR and a bunch more channels.


When I said "basic" I meant the "lifeline" cable that all providers have to offer, if asked. It is your locals and a few things more. It is not the 50ish channels you get with "extended basic" or whatever it is called.

So for me, now, with my retained pricing my costs are:

$10 cable
$20 for two TiVos.

For me to upgrade, I would have to increase my service to, let's say $50 (not sure exactly).....

$50 Cable
$5 box rental
$5 DVR fee

Much more than what I am paying now. Makes no sense with an analog set.

As I said before, for me, I have to wait and see what happens with S3, ComcasTiVo, and any possible HD sets coming into my house in the next year or so......


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## TiVoPony

Lifetime is going away. We're not doing this to be mean. We're doing it because it wasn't a sustainable business. If you have lifetime, celebrate the great deal you received. If you don't have lifetime, there's still time to get it. It's not gone yet.

We haven't raised our prices. You can still go out and buy yourself a TiVo DVR, and subscribe at $12.95/mo. Same price as before. No change there. Is the hardware going to be rebated down to near-free levels? Nope, if you want free hardware, it's available via one of the new bundled plans. For free hardware, you pay a higher service fee. Bring your own hardware, and you don't.

The new bundled plans - we're offering those because they tested remarkably well. Not in an esoteric "might you be interested in doing this if we offered it" sense. These were real offers, bought by real people. A bunch of 'em.

So...if you had a company, and you found that in the real world, offering a new pricing plan brings in more subscribers...you wouldn't offer it? Really?

We're looking to offer choice, and the new plans do that, for many people who might not otherwise have considered a TiVo DVR.

Lifetime had to go. The current $12.95 plan still exists. And there are new plans that give you the box for free. That's what's coming. And lifetime isn't gone just yet...you can still get it for a bit yet if you want.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## sysdude

This seems to have been answered in the forum, but there are 2 questions about it that persist.

I have read [in this thread] that gift card subscriptions (of lifetime service which were purchased now -- before next wed) would be available for use with S3 machines when they come out.

However, I did not find lifetime gift cards available on the TiVo website. The option was supposed to go away as of next wednesday, right? Seems like it is already gone. [feels weird to buy myself a gift subscription for a machine which has yet to be delivered anyway]

Also, from what I have read -- my S1 with lifetime subscription can be transfered to a new S3, correct? I saw mention of dates of activation being required to prove you've had the DVR long enough for this to be an option. How does one find out when the lifetime was activated? (It has been a really long time since I activated my lifetime subscription...  )


----------



## loganizzi

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, the cable company DVR's seem to change at least 4 or 5 times a year and are so ahead of everything else
> 
> bear in mind that dual tuners and HD were only possible to cable companies becasue they could put the cable box inside the DVR.


Go ahead and roll your eyes, but this is a very common occurence in the service industry model. A company invents a space and after it is somewhat established new entries come onto the field. These new entries cater to the lowest common denominator (or those customers looking for something "good enough") and they offer it a cheaper price. To top it off the companies (cable/satellite in this case) also have large direct install base to sell to. The market leader (TiVo) tries to both increase subscribers while increasing margin (prices) on individual sales. Unfortunately this rarely works and they start loosing customers, in turn they have to increase prices to stay in the game. All this time they are slowly losing operational funds to use towards improving their service and remain a differentiated product. This is where those "good enough" providers come in and eat their lunch. They now have a healthy flow of revenue from a strong customer base, and they begin to be the innovators now capturing not only the "good enough" customer base, but the high-end users (those that frequent boards like this).

The technology hasn't been around long enough for there to be the demand for huge leaps in this industry, but I believe that DVR techology has finally turned the corner. People who typically steer away from new technology like our Mom & Dads, and technophic neighbors are finally getting into the DVR market. They don't care about HME apps, Season Passes that let you do boolean operations, etc. These are the "good enough" customers that I don't believe TiVo is going to reach, because of their pricing and the fact that they are another "third party" device people don't want to worry about.

TiVo's only hope is to somehow exploit their command of the high-end users without driving them away as well. I personally don't think that this new pricing model does this, and ultimately they are not going to get the "good enough" or "high end" customers they need.

I hope I'm wrong, because I believe that the DVR space is much better with TiVo around (competition), but they need to prove they deserve the priviledge.


----------



## rainwater

TiVoPony said:


> We haven't raised our prices.


The cost of owning a TiVo box for a single year is now the same as the current deal except you will be paying $19.95 after the first year unless you change your plan. And the cost of buying a TiVo box will not include a rebate. So I'm not sure how the prices haven't been raised.


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## johnmacd

This is great news for those who alredy own a lifetime box. This is going to increase the ebay value. I for one am extremely happy since I have switched to Beyond TV with 6 tuners all in one box. I havent yet sold my lifetime tivo's yet. But now maybe next month I can get some money for the several series 1's that I have a lifetime on.


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## TiVo Steve

*TiVo just shot themselves in the foot!*

Why would anyone pay $20 a month for a box that doesn't do half as much as a cable company box that costs $10/mo. (one that provides a dual HDTV tuner _and_ that if it breaks you just call Comcast and get another one) ?

On the only positive note... the value of the units with lifetime already on them should skyrocket! That is, until TiVo goes out of business and the boxes become worthless...Oh well...I didn't expect my units to last forever! Looks like it will be time for a HTPC.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

SullyND said:


> The prepaid deals seem even worse when you consider the lack of the MSD...


that is the one point in this I saw and raised on the first page, when I thought MSD was going away

How is TiVo going to sell that second or third TiVo now ??

I have to go to retail and pay the 200$ or whatever it is for an 80 hour TiVo, now with no rebate, and then pay the 6.95

or do the one year deal at 224$ and then at the end of the first year move over to the 6.95 plan. It actually is cheaper to do the 224$ plan.

or if I get a rebate and pay 70$ for the box and agree to 1 year at 155.40 which lasts 22 months at the 6.95 rate I am at the pricing of old which is a good deal anyway.

the only thing about this is the lack of lifetime, but guess what - on my other 3 TiVo DVRs I do not have lifetime anyway as I prefer the 6.95 a month rate on them.

OK - I am converted on this myself but Time will tell if the subscription numbers bear out what TiVo has decided based on their research in moving to this plan


----------



## greg_burns

sysdude said:


> However, I did not find lifetime gift cards available on the TiVo website. The option was supposed to go away as of next wednesday, right? Seems like it is already gone. [feels weird to buy myself a gift subscription for a machine which has yet to be delivered anyway]


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3843090&&#post3843090



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Well, we no longer sell Product Lifetime gift subscriptions, and Best Buy also stopped selling them in January. So you can't buy a new one. But if you already had one that was unredeemed, then, yes, you could wait until it was nearly expired, and use it on a Series3 or whatever DVR was available at the time.


----------



## Sethb

While I really want TiVo to succeed, there are two REALLY big blunders that TiVo is making with this new pricing model:

1. The box is only warrantied for 1 year, but you can be under contract for up to 3! If the box dies on you 13 months into your contract, you're stuck either paying for 23 more months of service on a box you can't use, or paying TiVo a fee to swap your box for a refurbished model and move your service to it.

2. Hidden away in the fine print is that the monthly fee you're paying doesn't automatically go down to the $12.95/month "service-only" option once your contract period is up. You have to call TiVo and request that it be lowered to save yourself the extra monthly fee, which is buying you NOTHING, not even warranty coverage. It's a win-win for them, no one had to do the new coding in their billing system, and they get to take advantage of everyone too busy to note exactly what month they purchased their TiVo in.

I've been a huge TiVo fanboy, I've owned 6 boxes since 2000, and have referred enough friends and family to TiVo to earn a 140 hour box, a Nikon digicam, and an iPod Shuffle, but I think my love affair may be coming to an end over this. I'm already suffering through using a Motorola HD DVR on my HDTV, and was planning on getting the HD TiVo later this year when it was introduced, but now I'm sorely tempted to get a Microsoft Media Center box instead, as it'll work with my Xbox 360...

At a minimum, TiVo really needs to warranty the box for as long as the contract is in effect, and swap it out for NO CHARGE when one breaks, they also need to automatically revert the charge to the "service-only" option after the contract has expired.

Fortunately, TiVo breakdowns are pretty rare, but they do happen. I lost a hard drive in my Toshiba DVD/TiVo box after it was only 5 months old, and I lost a modem in my 20 Hour Series 1 box in 2001. The Toshiba was replaced under warranty, and I installed an ethernet card to repair the Series 1 box.

I used to easily defend TiVo's monthly fee by pointing out that not only did they have to pay for guide data, but they had to pay for ISP service for the boxes to dial in nighly to retrieve guide data. Now that most of the people I know have their TiVos hooked to their home network, AND there's no option to avoid it, it's a lot harder to defend...


----------



## mjsargent

I presently have two Tivo units and have lifetime contracts on both. Changing to a no lifetime option now means I have purchased my last Tivo unit. I will be looking elsewhere in the future.


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## dylanemcgregor

jlb said:


> When I said "basic" I meant the "lifeline" cable that all providers have to offer, if asked. It is your locals and a few things more. It is not the 50ish channels you get with "extended basic" or whatever it is called.


Yeah, I know what you meant. I have lifeline cable also, but I believe that the vast majority of analog subscribers are on some sort of "extended" plan. TiVO had been actively marketing to these people not too long ago, and one of the perks for someone on analog was that it was a cheaper monthly fee than upping to a cable company DVR.

Now for many of these people it will be the same cost or more expensive to get a TiVo. Now the only people that TiVo can be arguably cheaper for are the people on Lifeline cable or OTA subscribers, generally not the people that are inclined to spend $20 a month on TV.


----------



## raubin

jlb said:


> I have existing boxes that won't be affected....but for argument's sake, let's say I was in the market for a new box with the bundle pricing....
> 
> I currently have Comcast basic cable w/o box for $10 per month. So for me, option 1 is to add a ~$20 TiVo. Or, I could get the Comcast DVR. But I would also have to upgrade my current service level of $10/mo to whatever the service level I would need to get the DVR........Granted, it's on the cusp, but TiVo would probably stil win out for me in this situation. And this is because I am a non-HD household at this point. If/when I go HD, then it becomes a different ball of wax, and then you can add S3 to the mix too.


I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. This is a market positioning move - if you listened to the webcast of the earnings conference call, it all makes sense. In the call TiVo said it is targeting analog cable subs - that's the sweet spot for them. The suggestion was that people don't like the twin-pricing model where you pay for the box -and- the service and that this structure is very attractive to analog cable subs. Supposedly, it will also increase the NPV of subscribers and (they hope) reduce churn by locking folks into contracts. They don't seem to want to compete with didgital cable in pricing structure - in large part, I would imagine, because they want to make nice with them and not compete with the new Comcast DVR deal, etc.

BTW - it was suggested that you can still go the 12.95 route at retailers - but it was stated in the conference call that TiVo does want to change that. The problem is getting the system set up and negotiated with the retailers. So expect that soon enough you will not be able to buy a TiVo and then separate service.

Is it market positioning, or last ditch? I dunno. I do know that my two stand-alone lifetime subbed boxes are going to go up dramatically in value next week. I also know that I am not inclined to pay another monthly fee to anyone, for anything. I've got enough bloodsuckers already that I should start cutting loose betweeen mobile phone, landline phone, dsl, satellite, XM radio, eFax and god knows what else - and, no, the bundling it in a yearly package does not make it better.


----------



## TiVoPony

rainwater said:


> The cost of owning a TiVo box for a single year is now the same as the current deal except you will be paying $19.95 after the first year unless you change your plan. And the cost of buying a TiVo box will not include a rebate. So I'm not sure how the prices haven't been raised.


Well, if you go and buy your own box - from eBay, from a retailer, from your neighbor - the price is $12.95. You can get $12.95 a month if you want it.

What you're saying is that TiVo should offer $12.95 and give you a free box as well. That's not in any of the plans. If you want a free TiVo DVR, the service plans start at $16.95 a month.

Saying TiVo raised it's prices isn't accurate. If you want freebie hardware, you pay more. If you bring your own hardware, you don't.

Pony


----------



## ZeoTiVo

loganizzi said:


> Go ahead and roll your eyes, but this is a very common occurence in the service industry model. A company invents a space and after it is somewhat established new entries come onto the field. These new entries cater to the lowest common denominator (or those customers looking for something "good enough") and they offer it a cheaper price. To top it off the companies (cable/satellite in this case) also have large direct install base to sell to. The market leader (TiVo) tries to both increase subscribers while increasing margin (prices) on individual sales. Unfortunately this rarely works and they start loosing customers, in turn they have to increase prices to stay in the game. All this time they are slowly losing operational funds to use towards improving their service and remain a differentiated product. This is where those "good enough" providers come in and eat their lunch. They now have a healthy flow of revenue from a strong customer base, and they begin to be the innovators now capturing not only the "good enough" customer base, but the high-end users (those that frequent boards like this).
> 
> The technology hasn't been around long enough for there to be the demand for huge leaps in this industry, but I believe that DVR techology has finally turned the corner. People who typically steer away from new technology like our Mom & Dads, and technophic neighbors are finally getting into the DVR market. They don't care about HME apps, Season Passes that let you do boolean operations, etc. These are the "good enough" customers that I don't believe TiVo is going to reach, because of their pricing and the fact that they are another "third party" device people don't want to worry about.
> 
> TiVo's only hope is to somehow exploit their command of the high-end users without driving them away as well. I personally don't think that this new pricing model does this, and ultimately they are not going to get the "good enough" or "high end" customers they need.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, because I believe that the DVR space is much better with TiVo around (competition), but they need to prove they deserve the priviledge.


well that is an entirely different statement than what you made in the post I replied to (paraphrased as I am not going back all those pages to find it)"you are going to a cable company DVR as they have the bucks to make big improvements in DVR technology"

and of course TiVo has strong competition in the cable companies - but DVRs are a service and not something they make much money on. They are in the DVR fight so they can own the box that will also interface to PPV, VOD and other services like that. That is where the cable co makes good money.

and actually how Comcast is going to roll TiVo out is as a premium DVR service, so the cable co can charge a little more than the 10$ and offer whatever of those TiVo features Mom adn Pop find appealling. MRV and a music/photo service would appeal very much I think.


----------



## MikeMar

TivoPony - If I add another tivo box to my account that is already active (girlfriends) will we get the mutli discount (i have a lifetime and a multi discount box already) or will the 3rd tivo have to pay 12.95?


----------



## jerobi

ZeoTiVo said:


> that is the one point in this I saw and raised on the first page, when I thought MSD was going away
> 
> How is TiVo going to sell that second or third TiVo now ??
> 
> I have to go to retail and pay the 200$ or whatever it is for an 80 hour TiVo, now with no rebate, and then pay the 6.95
> 
> or do the one year deal at 224$ and then at the end of the first year move over to the 6.95 plan. It actually is cheaper to do the 224$ plan.


Not quite, FYI. the Ops have stated that the $6.95 MSD is NOT an option for the new pricing plans from Tivo.com. You can only get that with a retail-purchased box.


----------



## TrekCycling

TiVoPony said:


> Lifetime is going away. We're not doing this to be mean. We're doing it because it wasn't a sustainable business. If you have lifetime, celebrate the great deal you received. If you don't have lifetime, there's still time to get it. It's not gone yet.
> 
> We haven't raised our prices. You can still go out and buy yourself a TiVo DVR, and subscribe at $12.95/mo. Same price as before. No change there. Is the hardware going to be rebated down to near-free levels? Nope, if you want free hardware, it's available via one of the new bundled plans. For free hardware, you pay a higher service fee. Bring your own hardware, and you don't.
> 
> The new bundled plans - we're offering those because they tested remarkably well. Not in an esoteric "might you be interested in doing this if we offered it" sense. These were real offers, bought by real people. A bunch of 'em.
> 
> So...if you had a company, and you found that in the real world, offering a new pricing plan brings in more subscribers...you wouldn't offer it? Really?
> 
> We're looking to offer choice, and the new plans do that, for many people who might not otherwise have considered a TiVo DVR.
> 
> Lifetime had to go. The current $12.95 plan still exists. And there are new plans that give you the box for free. That's what's coming. And lifetime isn't gone just yet...you can still get it for a bit yet if you want.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Lifetime didn't *have* to go. Give me a break.

Also, what happens to those of us who paid for lifetime attached to US and not to the box? Do we get lifetime on any future Tivos or did we just get royally screwed? Can we now transfer our current lifetime to our box so at least the box will be worth something?

Trying to sell this as a good time to lifetimers, many of who have purchased multiple boxes and multiple lifetime subscriptions (I would estimate I've given Tivo at least $1500 over the years), is an absolute joke.


----------



## dswallow

TiVoPony said:


> Well, if you go and buy your own box - from eBay, from a retailer, from your neighbor - the price is $12.95. You can get $12.95 a month if you want it.
> 
> What you're saying is that TiVo should offer $12.95 and give you a free box as well. That's not in any of the plans. If you want a free TiVo DVR, the service plans start at $16.95 a month.
> 
> Saying TiVo raised it's prices isn't accurate. If you want freebie hardware, you pay more. If you bring your own hardware, you don't.


Pony, he's talking about the way TiVo won't automatically reduce the monthly rate to $12.95 after the commitment period for the specific plan you have ends but instead will continue billing at the higher monthly rate until the customer calls to switch.


----------



## dswallow

jerobi said:


> Not quite, FYI. the Ops have stated that the $6.95 MSD is NOT an option for the new pricing plans from Tivo.com. You can only get that with a retail-purchased box.


I'm pretty sure they said just the opposite. Once the commitment period is over you can switch to service only and the multi-uinit discount would apply if it weren't the only qualifying unit on the account.


----------



## rainwater

TiVoPony said:


> Well, if you go and buy your own box - from eBay, from a retailer, from your neighbor - the price is $12.95. You can get $12.95 a month if you want it.
> 
> What you're saying is that TiVo should offer $12.95 and give you a free box as well. That's not in any of the plans. If you want a free TiVo DVR, the service plans start at $16.95 a month.
> 
> Saying TiVo raised it's prices isn't accurate. If you want freebie hardware, you pay more. If you bring your own hardware, you don't.
> 
> Pony


I'm saying the cost of owning a TiVo is now more than it was before. I'm not saying you should give away boxes for free. I understand you don't feel you "raised" prices, but the cost of ownership is now more. So, to me that is raising prices.


----------



## TiVoPony

dswallow said:


> Pony, he's talking about the way TiVo won't automatically reduce the monthly rate to $12.95 after the commitment period for the specific plan you have ends but instead will continue billing at the higher monthly rate until the customer calls to switch.


Nope. I read "Of course prices have gone up, I have to pay $19.95/mo now". That's only true if you want a free DVR with a one year bundeled commitment.

If you provide the hardware, the service is $12.95/mo. Not after the first year. Not if you remember to call. From day one.

The same deal is there that you had before. Plus there are some new deals that give you free hardware. Saying this is a price increase isn't accurate.

Hope that helps explain my response.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## dgh

TiVoPony said:


> Lifetime is going away. We're not doing this to be mean. We're doing it because it wasn't a sustainable business. If you have lifetime, celebrate the great deal you received. If you don't have lifetime, there's still time to get it. It's not gone yet.
> 
> We haven't raised our prices...


The 2nd paragraph contradicts the first. If you haven't raised the prices then what am I celebrating?


----------



## rainwater

TiVoPony said:


> Nope. I read "Of course prices have gone up, I have to pay $19.95/mo now". That's only true if you want a free DVR with a one year bundeled commitment.
> 
> If you provide the hardware, the service is $12.95/mo. Not after the first year. Not if you remember to call. From day one.
> 
> The same deal is there that you had before. Plus there are some new deals that give you free hardware. Saying this is a price increase isn't accurate.
> 
> Hope that helps explain my response.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


No what i am saying, is that the total cost of ownership (whether you buy the box outright or go with one of the service plans) is going up for consumers. The only situation where it stays the same is if you buy the one year plan and then after 1 year, you change to the $12.95/month service. In other words, the price is going up except in one case. And I'm guessing TiVo is hoping users don't change their plan after one year.

You could say that if you buy a TiVo and get the $12.95 plan the price is not going up, but since the rebates will be gone that is no longer true either.


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoPony said:


> Lifetime is going away. We're not doing this to be mean. We're doing it because *it wasn't a sustainable business*.
> ...
> *We haven't raised our prices*. You can still go out and buy yourself a TiVo DVR, and subscribe at $12.95/mo. Same price as before. No change there. Is the hardware going to be rebated down to near-free levels? Nope,


This is not directed at TiVoPony...I add the bold in the quote...

It sounds more like after next week *TiVo will not have raised its subscription prices.* Hardware another story - from the perspective of the customer buying, as opposed to things like MSRP.

It occured to me in the shower today that it might have been easier to walk through the 1Q06 and 2Q06 financials to demonstrate that TiVo could have become long term profitable with the existing price levels, and then expand on that to explain how the new purchasing mechanics coupled with the old prices could accelerate TiVo to profitability. Anyway I took the harder - more difficult to explain - route of going through FY06&05.

There is further a misconception about Lifetime subs not having value beyond a certain point in time. Those subs generate advertising revenue, they generate revenue and deals from the Yahoo!'s, from movie ticket sales, and in the future from video downloads. With the low cost of servicing a subscriber (down to $2.25/mo in FY06) those revenues make it hard to say whether TiVo really would lose even on long term lifetime subs.


----------



## jerobi

rainwater said:


> You could say that if you buy a TiVo and get the $12.95 plan the price is not going up, but since the rebates will be gone that is no longer true either.


Very true. Depending on how TiVo decides to price their retail boxes, they can try to funnel people to their new plans. But overpricing the retail option would do more harm than good, since the retail outlets have more exposure. That will be a very interesting situation to watch.

The current rebate ends on 3/11, and it sounds like that is the end of the line for cheap/free boxes.


----------



## MikeMar

1 year is $19.95 a month or $224 prepaid = $*534 *for 3 years (1 year 19.95, 2 years 12.95)
2 year service commitment is $18.95 a month or $369 prepaid $*524 *(2 years 18.95, 1 year 12.95)
3 year service commitment is $16.95 a month or $469 prepaid - $*469 *- 3 years at $16.95

I thought it would be cheaper just by looking at it to do the 1 year then drop, but it does seem to be cheaper to do 3 year then drop.

$534 vs $524 vs $469


----------



## dswallow

MikeMar said:


> 1 year is $19.95 a month or $224 prepaid = $*534 *for 3 years (1 year 19.95, 2 years 12.95)
> 2 year service commitment is $18.95 a month or $369 prepaid $*524 *(2 years 18.95, 1 year 12.95)
> 3 year service commitment is $16.95 a month or $469 prepaid - $*469 *- 3 years at $16.95
> 
> I thought it would be cheaper just by looking at it to do the 1 year then drop, but it does seem to be cheaper to do 3 year then drop.
> 
> $534 vs $524 vs $469


3 years is cheaper prepaid, but 1 year is cheaper monthly (and higher than any prepaid option).

See my post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3843961&&#post3843961


----------



## jerobi

...and all of our math is based on the belief that $12.95/month will continue to apply, when it could go up OR down.


----------



## TiVoPony

rainwater said:


> You could say that if you buy a TiVo and get the $12.95 plan the price is not going up, but since the rebates will be gone that is no longer true either.


Rainwater,

Thanks for the clarification on what you intended to say. We're in agreement that prices haven't been raised. You can get TiVo service for $12.95/mo. Bring your own box.

If you're talking about ownership costs - you're factoring in rebates as a given. It doesn't make economic sense for TiVo to continue to subsidize the cost of the box with rebates the way we have if the subscriber is paying $12.95 a month. You're viewing ownership costs through the rose-colored glasses called rebates. Rebates are never a given, they're a limited time opportunity.

And we've all read here that people don't like rebates. Some have even said they'll never buy a product with a rebate...

Pony


----------



## jlb

Again, I reserve final judgement to when we get more info regarding ComcasTiVo and S3.......For now, I need Advil from staying on top of this thread.......


----------



## MikeMar

I bought my S2 box a year and a half ago for $150, and $300 lifetime. I know a lot of people paid more going back farther, but prices change, and like pony said, rebate are limited. 

That said, i'm glad i got the free one from jcpenny


----------



## cwoody222

No more lifetime = big :down: :down: :down: 

Don't get me wrong, TiVo's treated me and my family just fine over the years... I got a $99 or so blowout S1 and paid $199 for Lifetime. I transfered that to a S2 that I paid a decent amount for (what we they when they first came out? $300 or so?).

My parents won a free S1 and paid $199 Lifetime. They've since bought 2 S2's at fairly discounted prices and paid $299 Lifetime for each.

Monthly payment options are just unattractive to me entirely.

I only have analog cable (which I don't pay for) so having a second box (the TiVo) but still having immediate channel changes and not missing out on things like dual-tuners from my cable company make a stand-alone, no-monthly-fee a very attractive deal for me.

But most potential DVR customers pay for their cable (mine's bundled with my rent, I don't steal). Most have digital cable and a box. The complexity of a second box that has to control their cable box PLUS the limitations of not recording 2 shows at once PLUS not recording in HD PLUS still needing to rent a cable box make TiVo a far cry from the deal they can get from their cable company.

At least with Lifetime people thought they "owned" something.

However, I do understand why Lifetime had to go (it was a good deal!). And I understand that in the future some of these obstacles (dual-tuners, HD, controlling a cable box) will be removed with the CableCARD S3.

At THAT point I can see a monthly-only structure making sense since customer will be able to stop renting cable boxes from their cable company (the CableCARD should be cheaper) and have a BETTER feature set with TiVo than any current cable DVR currently offers.

But for S2 customers? I can't recommend TiVo any more.

And the early-adopter customers who are going to be the S3 market for the foreseeable future aren't going to like monthly since they're the ones with the disposable income to pay for something like Lifetime.

Plus I shudder to think what the monthly fee with be for the S3 since the hardware cost is likely MUCH higher than the S2s.


Plus I'm just upset that other than a PC solution there is really NO more consumer DVR option that doesn't require a monthly "subscription". That's going to slow DVR adoption overall.


----------



## HDTiVo

dgh said:


> The 2nd paragraph contradicts the first. If you haven't raised the prices then what am I celebrating?


Please don't try to use logical arguments.


----------



## TiVoPony

dgh said:


> The 2nd paragraph contradicts the first. If you haven't raised the prices then what am I celebrating?


We're not taking lifetime away from those that have it. If you have lifetime, you got a good deal. That's what you would celebrate. Getting a good deal. 

Sorry if that wasn't clear, dgh.

Pony


----------



## HDTiVo

MikeMar said:


> I bought my S2 box a year and a half ago for $150, and $300 lifetime. I know a lot of people paid more going back farther, but prices change, and like pony said, rebate are limited.


So a year and a half ago you paid $450 for a box you can use 'forever.' Now you can pay $469 for a box you can use 3 years. Now I understand how it is that prices have NOT gone up.


----------



## dgh

TiVoPony said:


> We're not taking lifetime away from those that have it. If you have lifetime, you got a good deal. That's what you would celebrate. Getting a good deal.
> 
> Sorry if that wasn't clear, dgh.
> 
> Pony


Oh, you meant, you weren't raising the price I paid 6 years ago?  Like I'm supposed to be surprised that another charge hasn't mysteriously appeared on my credit card?

But we all agree you are raising the prices going forward - right?


----------



## amjustice

jlb said:


> Again, I reserve final judgement to when we get more info regarding ComcasTiVo and S3.......For now, I need Advil from staying on top of this thread.......


I agree this form is getting super complicated. I too am very much looking forward to announcements about the ComcasTivo and the Series 3. I just got a new Sony 40"XBR LCD and am very torn between watching HDTV and watching stuff on Tivo. I need the ability to do both!!! NOW!!


----------



## MikeMar

HDTiVo said:


> So a year and a half ago you paid $450 for a box you can use 'forever.' Now you can pay $469 for a box you can use 3 years. Now I understand how it is that prices have NOT gone up.


Yup, good times 

Glad I did it, and obviously if anyone here has a box or two, probably upgrade to lifetime now and use the MDS as well and be all set


----------



## dtreese

cwoody222 said:


> But for S2 customers? I can't recommend TiVo any more.


I can, for one reason. TiVoOpsMgr has informed us in this thread that purchasing the service up front locks in that price, regardless of hardware. That means you could buy service at the end of next week at a locked-in price, then transfer the service to a S3 unit later at no additional cost. Granted, we don't know the pricing for S3 units yet, but almost all the speculation I've seen is that it will be more expensive. True? I don't know, and TiVo employees can't tell us yet. It's a gamble, but probably not a bad one.


----------



## loganizzi

ZeoTiVo said:


> well that is an entirely different statement than what you made in the post I replied to (paraphrased as I am not going back all those pages to find it)"you are going to a cable company DVR as they have the bucks to make big improvements in DVR technology"


Here let me do it for you:



Loganizzi said:


> The idea of locking into a technology for a period of a year or more is something I won't consider. Technology changes much to frequently, and I'm not ready to re-invest in a company like TiVo who is facing way too much competitition from cable companies with much more capital and resources on hand to take DVR's to the next level.


And they do, they have the additional revenue stream from Cable services and other businesses they are in. TiVo has prepped the market and the others will now dominate. In the last thread, I was simply expanding on that theme.

At no point have I commented that the cable company DVR's are superior products today. But I'm willing to bet that given a short amount of time they will have the resources at their disposal to be so.


----------



## vasilemj

Is TiVo trying to push us to their competitors....cough ReplayTV...cough LG LRM-519?


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## ZeoTiVo

jerobi said:


> Not quite, FYI. the Ops have stated that the $6.95 MSD is NOT an option for the new pricing plans from Tivo.com. You can only get that with a retail-purchased box.


not exactly, as Doug is stating just above me - you will have to call in and "confirm" that the box qualifies for the discount rate at the end of the committment period. But if it does you will get the 6.95 rate.

would be much better if TiVo would just automatically revert to the best rate the box is eligible for without the customer having to take action.


----------



## rainwater

TiVoPony said:


> If you're talking about ownership costs - you're factoring in rebates as a given. It doesn't make economic sense for TiVo to continue to subsidize the cost of the box with rebates the way we have if the subscriber is paying $12.95 a month. You're viewing ownership costs through the rose-colored glasses called rebates. Rebates are never a given, they're a limited time opportunity.
> 
> And we've all read here that people don't like rebates. Some have even said they'll never buy a product with a rebate...
> 
> Pony


No, I assume the rebates will be gone now. Thats why I am saying the cost of ownership have gone up. I'm no idiot (ok, maybe I am). I understand if you are going to the service contracts, you can't offer the box for $50 and $12.95/month. Thats all I was saying.


----------



## dswallow

TiVoPony said:


> You're viewing ownership costs through the rose-colored glasses called rebates. Rebates are never a given, they're a limited time opportunity.
> 
> And we've all read here that people don't like rebates. Some have even said they'll never buy a product with a rebate...


Most people who don't like rebates don't like them because of the hit-or-miss nature of "qualifying" or having the rebate processor agree they're qualified, and/or getting the rebate in any sort of timely manner.

If you credited the rebate towards service fees immediately upon activation, for instance, the rebate concept probably would not have as many detractors.


----------



## rainwater

ZeoTiVo said:
 

> would be much better if TiVo would just automatically revert to the best rate the box is eligible for without the customer having to take action.


But isn't that the whole point of the "flexible" plans? I doubt automatic reduction in costs will ever happen.


----------



## HDTiVo

cwoody222 said:


> At least with Lifetime people thought they "owned" something.


Yes.

The value of the contract depreciates over its life. A monthly sub has value for that month only. A three year contract's value declines to zero at the end of 3 years.

All other things being equal, Lifetime essentially devalued very little (only with the box life expectancy.)

Things not being otherwise equal right now, grandfathered Lifetime is about to get more valuable.


----------



## jerobi

ZeoTiVo said:


> not exactly, as Doug is stating just above me - you will have to call in and "confirm" that the box qualifies for the discount rate at the end of the committment period. But if it does you will get the 6.95 rate.
> 
> would be much better if TiVo would just automatically revert to the best rate the box is eligible for without the customer having to take action.


Are we certain on that? I was using this comment as my source.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3842554&&#post3842554

I welcome a better example if you know of one. It seems vague to me if they are banning MSD on all new subscription boxes, or just DURING the subscription commitment period. The latter would make more sense for all parties.


----------



## sommerfeld

TiVo should conduct real market research (as opposed to unreliable customer surveys when there's no actual $$ on the line) without placing their bottom line at risk by auctioning a modest number of new series 3 boxes with attached lifetime service through ebay.


----------



## classicsat

MikeMar said:


> Maybe i'm confused, but what exactly is 'service only'? Isn't that every box?


Service only is just the service. The new plans are service+lease.


----------



## MickeS

> I also know that I am not inclined to pay another monthly fee to anyone, for anything.


Same here! I don't have HD, and one of the reasons is that I do not want digital cable, because I don't want to pay more monthly fees to my cable company. I am not buying a Series 3 if it can't be lifetime. Easy as tha6t. I would much rather go on using my S2, even if I did have HD.

I would very much want XM radio, but no way in hell am I gonna pay $10/month to listen to the radio.

But I guess that when my Series 2 dies I will not have a choice anymore. Seems like every business out there wants to get paid infinitely.


----------



## HDTiVo

sommerfeld said:


> TiVo should conduct real market research (as opposed to unreliable customer surveys when there's no actual $$ on the line) without placing their bottom line at risk by selling a modest number of new series 3 boxes with attached lifetime service through ebay.


TiVo did do 'real market research.' They believe they were very thorough and demonstrated this new model will work very well for them.


----------



## rainwater

sommerfeld said:


> TiVo should conduct real market research (as opposed to unreliable customer surveys when there's no actual $$ on the line) without placing their bottom line at risk by selling a modest number of new series 3 boxes with attached lifetime service through ebay.


Actually, they have done real research. There are people out there right now not paying the $12.95/month (paying more). If you search the forums, you can read about a few of the deals TiVo has offered lately. I'm sure it was all a part of their research.


----------



## jerobi

rainwater said:


> But isn't that the whole point of the "flexible" plans? I doubt automatic reduction in costs will ever happen.


Here's hoping that some day they DO drop. The DVR world has seen a lot of competitors entering the market with serious R&D backing, and it will likely move to be more of a commodity market as people bring their feature sets up to speed. Price increases may keep TiVo afloat and profitable, but eventually you can price yourself out of any market.

TiVo is in a rough spot right now in the DVR world, and I'm sure they don't make these decisions lightly. Here's hoping they make the best moves to ensure a long term survival, and a future that still has a cost/benefit ratio to keep posters like us around.


----------



## Shag2580

I've had a Sony Tivo Series 1 for around 7 years now, and I've lurked in the forums for while getting tips and tricks. This is the first time I've ever registered and posted here. 

I was recently debating getting another unit. Companies like Weaknees have made it easy to repair and extend the life of my Tivo. However there are new hardware features and better software for the Series 2 units, and the Series 3 units are on the horizon. 

After seeing the story on the wire, really wondered why Tivo has done this. It definitely makes we want to explore other options. I have just converted an old PC to MS XP Media Center Edition, but thought my Tivo was better and was going to purchase a new unit. 

Now I can't see spending an nearly $200+ per year on "service" for a Tivo. My cable provider supplies cheaper boxes (which are only going to get better, and may even offer Tivo software), and I can build a MCE PC myself, or go to Best Buy to by an HP MCE PC for $800 (no subscription fees). 

If they really needed some cash, then incease the fee required for lifetime subscription. I'd easily spend $800 on my Tivo unit, as long as I didn't have to keep paying "installments" every year afterwards. Now you want me to spend $200+ per year? As a consumer that doesn't work out for me. I would have paid $1400 for my current Tivo. 

The way I see it, Tivo has had growth issues because it hasn't been truely revolutionary in the marketplace. Right now they do something no one else does; allow me to Thumbs-up/down a show and automatically recommend new shows. Even then, I have more TV shows sitting in my Tivo every night than I can watch. So when the next recommended show does comes around I'm greatful, but it is a feature I could "live" without for a substantial savings (commercials tell me about new shows too.)

How about doing simple things, like making Tivo hardware and software more user friendly? The hardware and software options are what will force me to upgrade my unit, not the service. 

That was one of the reasons I was looking to buying a new unit. I was tired of having to keep around a phone line. But where the hell is a 802.11g Tivo? My laptop is 3 years old and can do wireless. I can't even find ethernet. You STILL have to buy an adapter? Come on...

I would have purchased a new Tivo long ago if I could have tied it into my home network, even via ethernet cable. Tivo has simply failed to give me a reason to buy and new box, and now that I finally think the series 3 may be a reason, they price it right out of interest.

If hardware development cost is the issue, then how about allowing us Tivo fans to buy the software directly and install it on our own (approved) hardware? This way I can add/develop features for the box as I want (without Tivo getting in trouble). Tivo can then update the features it likes to the base software.

Now, instead of "blindly" jumping into a new Tivo, (which is scary enough with all the DRM wars, new TV standards battles, next Gen DVD format wars, etc.) I'm going to research other, less expensive options that I can replace as things settle. I don't see how anything that is going on in the media marketplace today is good for the consumer, and this appears to be just another example.


----------



## TiVoStephen

cwerdna said:


> I still see the 40 hour refurbs at http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp. With this new scheme does "Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation." still apply assuming we upgrade to lifetime before the cutoff next Wednesday 3/15/06?


Yes, but to get Product Lifetime you have to activate on or before 3/15 and you have to have the unit's TiVo Service Number, so act quickly.


----------



## TiVoPony

dgh said:


> Oh, you meant, you weren't raising the price I paid 6 years ago?  Like I'm supposed to be surprised that another charge hasn't mysteriously appeared on my credit card?
> 
> But we all agree you are raising the prices going forward - right?


No, if you're honestly confused, by my comments, I apologize and will try to clarify.

We have not raised prices. If you have a box, and want to subscribe, it's the exact same deal as before - $12.95/mo with a one year commit. If you want a free box, then you pay a higher monthly service fee.

Regarding lifetime...You bought lifetime. Good for you! You got a great deal! You were in the right place at the right time and made a good decision.

Wait a minute...that great deal isn't available anymore? Well, I guess there are two views of the world:

* Yay for me, I bought lifetime! I was in the right place at the right time and got a great deal. It's too bad that deal isn't available anymore, I really liked it.

or...

* TiVo is bad, TiVo is stupid, TiVo is mean, TiVo will fail, and I will never ever support TiVo again.

I'm saying it's your choice. Celebrate that you got a good deal when you bought lifetime, or rant that you've been wronged because things change.

By the way - I've never been able to resolve those that say "If TiVo doesn't change, they're going to die!" with those that say "TiVo's changed! They're going to die!". It doesn't sync up. Besides, TiVo is doing fine. We're not in danger of going away. 

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## lajohn27

Multi Service Discount - Stephen or Pony Pls Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) The BUNDLED service & box prices are fixed. They DO count as a qualifying unit. This means if you have a bundled box and service contract, a second TIVO (if you already own it, buy it on E-Bay, steal it from your cousin) will be 6.95 a month.

2) If you already have a TIVO and are paying 12.95 a month for service and want to add a bundled unit; the bundled unit will NOT be at 6.95 a month. The bundled service & box price you agree to will apply, BUT.. the TIVO you already own could then be reduced to 6.95 a month presuming you've already run thru any commitment that applies to it.

Do I have this right?


----------



## tim254

I have four Tivo's, all with lifetime service. Removing the option to have lifetime service is really disappointing. I definitely will NOT be buying another Tivo anytime soon. I would gladly pay $399 or more for the service, which would only take 30 months (or 2.5 years) to recoup my investment, plus it would still be worth $399 on eBay. Now, any new boxes without lifetime are worthless on ebay.

--
Tim


----------



## tazzftw

Quick question. I'll be out of town next Tuesday. I'm very tempted to buy that 40 hour now. With the lifetime option ending on the 18th, I need to get that ASAP.

To activate a service, I think I need the box number. How quickly can I find that out?


----------



## mportuesi

I have a Series 2 with Lifetime that I've owned for the past three and a half years. Since upgrading to HD, I've been looking for a HD DVR alternative, half-waiting for Series 3 to appear.

With the demise of Lifetime, I know for certain I will not be buying a Series 3 unit. So that means I'm seriously looking at alternatives for replacing my TiVo now -- whether it's the cable company DVR or homebrew DVR (MythTV, MCE, or MacMini plus Elgato EyeTV). I'm anxious to join the world of HD DVR's and now that I know TiVo isn't in the running, it's time to move on. I also will no longer recommend TiVo to family and friends.

This latest pricing plan is by far the stupidest decision TiVo has ever made.


----------



## dgh

TiVoPony said:


> No, if you're honestly confused, by my comments, I apologize and will try to clarify.
> 
> We have not raised prices.


How so? For 7 years, you've had two pricing options. The cheap one was called lifetime. The expensive one was called monthly. You've dropped the cheap one, kept the expensive one, and added some more potentially even more expensive ones.



TiVoPony said:


> Wait a minute...that great deal isn't available anymore? Well, I guess there are two views of the world:
> 
> * Yay for me, I bought lifetime! I was in the right place at the right time and got a great deal. It's too bad that deal isn't available anymore, I really liked it.
> 
> or...
> 
> * TiVo is bad, TiVo is stupid, TiVo is mean, TiVo will fail, and I will never ever support TiVo again.


What great deal??? You haven't raised prices - remember? 

Those are two funny views of the world. My view is: TiVo used to be available for about a buck a month to those people who were willing to take some risk with respect to hardware and company failures and could do the math and see that this pricing was probably in their favor. It was also available at $12.95 for those who weren't. Now the cheap option is gone and someone is trying to convince me that this is not raising prices. This is actually much more annoying that the removal of the cheap price option.

As for never ever supporting TiVo again. That is way too simplistic. The higher price (TiVo has not raised prices, TiVo has not raised prices, chant, repeat...) makes it a tougher sell for me. Certainly the rushing out and buying an S3 this year option was been quashed. But never again, who knows? Maybe after I check around, the other options will really be awful. But I doubt they'll be awful enough. TiVo used to be great AND cheap. It's still great but now its price is at least great, possibly greater. We'll see what I have for a PVR in a few years...



TiVoPony said:


> TiVo is doing fine.


Good. I like options. At the very least, it will keep the other players on their toes.


----------



## TiVoPony

lajohn27 said:


> Multi Service Discount - Stephen or Pony Pls Correct me if I'm wrong:
> 
> 1) The BUNDLED service & box prices are fixed. They DO count as a qualifying unit. This means if you have a bundled box and service contract, a second TIVO (if you already own it, buy it on E-Bay, steal it from your cousin) will be 6.95 a month.
> 
> 2) If you already have a TIVO and are paying 12.95 a month for service and want to add a bundled unit; the bundled unit will NOT be at 6.95 a month. The bundled service & box price you agree to will apply, BUT.. the TIVO you already own could then be reduced to 6.95 a month presuming you've already run thru any commitment that applies to it.
> 
> Do I have this right?


Yes.

Bundled plan boxes cannot have the MSD. You're getting the box for free, and part of that deal is that you're paying a slightly higher monthly service fee as a result. Giving MSD on a bundled box just wouldn't make sense.

A bundled plan box does however act as a qualifying box to enable non-bundled (bring your own) boxes to take advantage of a MSD plan.

Pony


----------



## jerobi

tim254 said:


> Now, any new boxes without lifetime are worthless on ebay.


It depends on your outlook. You're right that a lack of lifetime will lower the value. But since retail boxes will no longer be cheap/free after rebate, it would potentially help Ebay sales for buyers that want a second box and would get the MSD. Or even people that just want to pay $13/month (although less of a factor IMO).


----------



## russellk

Comcast charges their box for $10 a month. It is a HD Box + DVR in one. It is not as good as Tivo but it's Dual HD tuner box, DVR function, and onDemand (a lots of free programming.. and they have good ones, too.)

Tivo isn't selling programming. They are just letting the users download a program guide. How can the program guide cost $17 to $20 a month? Thats more than the TV Guide or any news paper. I mean, Yahoo gives it out for free.

Why can't user who wants to buy lifetime subscription continue to buy it and have ability to transfer it to S3. I heard that S3 will cost some where around $800. I am willing to fork that amount if there was the Lifetime Subscription option and S2 can be transfer to S3. I did it with S1 to S2.

$10 a month with Comcast is much easier than the $17 to $20 a month for ($300 Tivo Set). Who knows, they might charge more for S3 ($800 TivoHD Set). They could probably charge up to $30 a month. We just don't know the pricing. At that price point, it's just easier to get cheap Dell media center PC for $500. Then you can stream the contents to other Xbox360 or Media Center sets without paying extra $5 or whatever. With MediaCenterPC, you have more options, including adding extra hard drives freely. For instance, if you want to listen to Music, you have to turn on the TV and Tivo and go through that route. With Media PC, you can just by standard-alone mp3 player that can be hooked up to the Media Center PC.

I love my Tivo. I really do. Comcast isn't as great. I was going to get S3 and additional units. Now, that may not become reality for me. I am thinking about getting extra Tivo S2 + Lifetime Subscription by this weekend. 

Maybe one of the ex-Apprentice contestants is working for them. I just don't know.


----------



## jerobi

TiVoPony said:


> Bundled plan boxes cannot have the MSD. You're getting the box for free, and part of that deal is that you're paying a slightly higher monthly service fee as a result. Giving MSD on a bundled box just wouldn't make sense.
> 
> A bundled plan box does however act as a qualifying box to enable non-bundled (bring your own) boxes to take advantage of a MSD plan.
> 
> Pony


Pony,

That makes sense to me, business-wise. Can you please add a clear statement on this: I buy a 1yr bundled plan and on the 13th month I call to switch to $6.95 MSD. Will this MSD be available, or not? (Assuming I am currently paying regular monthyl prices for any other monthly box, bundled or not)


----------



## bferrell

TiVoPony said:


> No, if you're honestly confused, by my comments, I apologize and will try to clarify.
> 
> Regarding lifetime...You bought lifetime. Good for you! You got a great deal! You were in the right place at the right time and made a good decision.
> 
> Wait a minute...that great deal isn't available anymore? Well, I guess there are two views of the world:
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Pony - no offense, but you keep skipping over a very important point to many of us. You don't offer lifetime anymore, fine, it sucks, but fine. But to make me responsible for the hardware in that paradigm makes you less competitive versus the cable company's DVR.

I don't like thier offering (8300HD), but at least if it breaks or a better piece of hardware comes out, I can switch at no cost. That's the only benefit I get out of paying them month after month. With Tivo, now I get the downside and no upside.


----------



## lajohn27

I can't see taking a cable co DVR as an alternative to a TIVO .. esp considering that NO price plans for the S3 boxes.. have even been announced.

Of course, some cableco's have different rates, but mine wants 19.95 for a single tuner HD PVR, plus a 5.99 digital services fee. Whatever that is. And there's no lifetime available. And at the end of three years I don't even own the box.

Of course, I can buy the box from them for 766$ up front. But it will only depreciate in value and again - no lifetime, plus, I'm still paying the $5.99 digital services fee.

Arguing with Pony over whether this is or is not a price increase .. to me is like teaching a pig to dance. Nobody learns anything and the pig ends up annoyed. You have your opinion.. other people have theirs.

In the last quarter conference call, Rogers pointed out that the uptake of those offered these different pricing options (vs paying for the box up front in some form) was considerably higher. A significant magnitude higher.. in fact, the terms bandied about involved something about the highest acceptance rate of any offers TIVO has ever made. 

Hard for a company to turn their back on those kinds of numbers really. 

And the fact remains, for all the fervor of those consumers who belong to this forum and the 'long term support' for the TIVO product & brand.... "we" have not been enough to make this company profitable or gain widespread acceptance.

Change was required. Change was taken. I think the net effect will be positive for TIVO. Esp once some of those in this forum start actually trying the alternatives.

J


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## mtmra70

This thread did clear up a lot of concerns I had with this plan....here are my thoughts/comments after reading almost all the posts:

1) In regards to the 'this is just like a cell phone provider', this can not be compared to cell providers.
-They offer contract and non-contract prices. TiVo offers contract only.
-They offer MANY plans. TiVo offers two (service-only or service+box).
-They offer MANY different models of equipment. TiVo offers a handful at best
I think what is going on is the consumer is comparing the new service plans to cable providers where TiVo is comparing it to cell providers. Since the customer is always right, TiVo should really offer a more competative pricing against what cable companies offer.

2) In regards to TiVo Pony or OpsMgr stating TiVo gave us a heads up, I would argue against this. I never received an email, a call or anything. I only found out about this because of a RSS feed of /. and I happened catch something about TiVo.

3) I currently have a single S2 on the 6.95 "I wanted to cancel but TiVo cut the cost" plan. I know this new pricing structure does not directly affect me, but can TiVo comment on if they plan to offer this 6.95 more frequently or if this plan is transferable to a new unbubndled unit?

4) I really think this does introduce more confusion in the way it was released. If TiVo just came out and said "Our units are now free (with commitment) but there is a slightly higher monthly cost and BTW, we no longer issue new lifetime plans", that would have caused less questions. It only makes sense to me after reading 14 pages of comments.


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## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> Arguing with Pony over whether this is or is not a price increase .. to me is like teaching a pig to dance. Nobody learns anything and the pig ends up annoyed. You have your opinion.. other people have theirs.
> 
> J


Show me how it is cheaper? Like I said before, there is only one case now where you can get a box for the same price as the current offer (1 year service + change service after the 12 months) excluding any MSD. In all other cases, the price has gone up. There's no arguing about that. I guess its conveniant to act as though the $12.95 plan is the same without taking into account the increased cost of the box itself. But I am not buying into that.


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:


> Arguing with Pony over whether this is or is not a price increase .. to me is like teaching a pig to dance. Nobody learns anything and the pig ends up annoyed.


I do not believe Pony is in any way analogous to a pig.



lajohn27 said:


> You have your opinion.. other people have theirs.


> is now a matter of opinion? Ok, in your world, fine. In mine, not so much.


----------



## raubin

TiVoPony said:


> Nope. I read "Of course prices have gone up, I have to pay $19.95/mo now". That's only true if you want a free DVR with a one year bundled commitment.
> 
> If you provide the hardware, the service is $12.95/mo. Not after the first year. Not if you remember to call. From day one.
> 
> The same deal is there that you had before. Plus there are some new deals that give you free hardware. Saying this is a price increase isn't accurate.
> 
> Hope that helps explain my response.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Well, truth be told, TiVo IS trying to make the bring your own box deal go away - so I think the statement, although technically true, is not an accurate reflection of TiVo's plans. In short order, you will not be able to buy the box and you will ont be able to pay for service monthly - at least according to the conference call yesterday and to this AP story:



> The new plan will be available initially only to customers who sign up through TiVo.com. Customers attained through retail stores will still face the current prices and service fees, though TiVo is working to apply the same new pricing plan for retail customers.


----------



## mearlus

classicsat said:


> Service only is just the service. The new plans are service+lease.


After reading this entire thread it took me probably until page 5 or 6 to grasp what was fully happening with service plans/pricing etc.

This quote is the simplist explination I have seen.  It's the conclusion I came to after about the 6th page but it seems that a lot of people aren't able to wrap their head around what is going on.

I guess the only suggestion I'd have for TivoPony and/or TivoOpsMgr is to come up with some sheet that explains everything out right. Explains the differences between Service and Service+Hardware for XYZ type pricing structures.

Really the only sad thing I see about this is Lifetime disappearing, which we all knew was too good to last. Even if Tivo made some money on it, in the long run they made very little.

We can still buy Tivo's retail and get $12.95/month or $6.95/month w/ MSD (until pricing changes on that at some possible point in the future that is only logical to happen). We can still get Tivo's off of eBay or froma friend and add them to our account, or create a new account with the same service pricing.

We can buy new Tivo's+Service for a larger monthly fee or a upfront fee to then get the $12.95/month pricing after the contract term. This tells me instead of fighting with Rebate problems Tivo is eliminating a large upfront cost to the consumer by allowing them to 'lease' the hardware and tacking that fee onto the service cost.

What is so wrong with that?

I don't see how this immediately hurts any current Tivo customers other than the Lifetime Subscription option ending. (Yes, that is a huge loss to us as consumers as it was/is a great deal but as I said before we all know it was too good to last.)

Most of the Tivo referalls I have turned down the Lifetime subscription because they couldn't afford the cost of the hardware + the cost of the lifetime at the time. The monthly fee was much more reasonable to them.

I really don't think this is the most horrible announcement that Tivo could make. And seriously, how many companys give you any type of advance warning that something as great as the lifetime subscription is going to be leaving in order to get one last chance at buying it. That tells me that Tivo wants to reward those who have had multiple boxes for awhile with one last Hurrah. (Although I don't think I'll be buying an additional lifetime for my 140hr as I have about a year left on the gift certificate value.)

Just my 2 cents worth 

Nick


----------



## MasterOfPuppets

OK...I read the first page...and I read this last page, cuz I don't have time to read 15 pages...
If you buy a Tivo with lifetime off ebay with lifetime can you still switch the account over to yourself, or will you need to leave it registred to the previous owner in order to keep using lifetime???
This new pricing plan sucks...I don't really care what Tivo fanboys try to spin it to...
Let's hope that the talented people in the community crank out some quality hacks if you're unable to transfer lifetime


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## tazzftw

After thinking it over, I guess the only way to find the service number is to actually have the box. And it isn't worth buying the boxes now, wth my cash flow somewhat limited, have it sent to my parents house, have them activate it for me, all within a week, for something that I don't really need right now, but would like as an investment.

All I'll say is that I made two great deals in getting two boxes with lifetime, and one of them I'll eventually upgrade to 500-600 hour.


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## Sirshagg

If I go out to circuit city right now and buy a 80 hour tivo and purchase/activate lifetime service today, will I still be able to get the $150 rebate (assuming I have not already received the max rebates per subscriber/household already)?


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## lajohn27

Rebates and other previous temporary incentives are just that - temporary incentives.

You already own a box. How is this a price increase?

For those who are going to acquire boxes - the 1 year plan seems quite comparable to what's being offered now - how is this a price increase?

And who says I was comparing Pony to the pig.. maybe it was those arguing with him......  

J


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## greg_burns

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, but to get Product Lifetime you have to activate on or before 3/15 and you have to have the unit's TiVo Service Number, so act quickly.


I ordered a refurb 2/24 and still no delivery (or charge to card even). Is there someway to get the TSN now? Is there a grace period for those, like me, who ordered from Tivo store before the cut-off date? Another poster mentioned a CSR saying 30 days...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3842356#post3842356



xnevergiveinx said:


> the cool guy on the phone said that i can call and get my lifetime sub no problem if i do it before the 18th. if i call after the 18th, they just need to get approval from a supervisor. he said that 30 days after the 18th is the grace period for all the people that bought series 2 refurb boxes to get lifetime subs.


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## bferrell

mearlus said:


> We can buy new Tivo's+Service for a larger monthly fee or a upfront fee to then get the $12.95/month pricing after the contract term. This tells me instead of fighting with Rebate problems Tivo is eliminating a large upfront cost to the consumer by allowing them to 'lease' the hardware and tacking that fee onto the service cost.
> 
> What is so wrong with that?
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth
> 
> Nick


Nick, I agree with most of what you said here, BUT IT IS NOT A LEASE. I have to buy the equipment (which I can do in installments, to make it easier on poor-little-me). If it breaks, tough for me. Buy another one. Series 8 comes out? Buy another one. If you going to make me pay for ever, throw me a bone on the hardware....


----------



## Larry in TN

Spire said:


> Why do I feel so strongly about this? I just don't like monthly fees -- and I know that I'm far from alone.


It's a finance contract. You are financing a new TiVo through these new, higher monthly service fees. People like it because people don't have any money as more than 3 out of 4 Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's why it did well in the customer trials.

(Funny how they're going to keep the higher monthly fee in place even after the "loan" (contract) has been "paid off" (fulfilled) unless the customer calls and changes the subscription. That's going to produce some very angry customers when they find out about this some months AFTER their contract period was completed.)

I don't borrow money but as long as they offer the service-only option I can buy the hardware up front and use a MSD subscription. I lose the ability to sell my S2 on eBay which was going to pay for the lifetime on the S3. I guess the kids get their own TiVo by default when the S3 comes out. Instead of having a S3 with lifetime I'll have a lifetime S2 and a S3 with a $6.95/mo fee.


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## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> Rebates and other previous temporary incentives are just that - temporary incentives.
> 
> You already own a box. How is this a price increase?
> 
> For those who are going to acquire boxes - the 1 year plan seems quite comparable to what's being offered now - how is this a price increase?


I said it several times already. The current 40 hour box + one year prepaid is the same price as the new one year plan. The only difference is if you don't change your plan after one year you are charged $19.95/month after 12 months.

Also, regarding rebates/incentives, all I am saying is starting in about a week, it will cost more to buy a box and activate service than it does today. That is a price increase no matter how you look at it.


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## duoart

A buddy in the UK with an ancient Series 1 just alerted me to the change. I got my first Tivo (series 2 w/ 1 year prepaid) in January. Cost me another $150 to go lifetime a couple minutes ago, but it is worth it.

Had I not been alerted I would be VERY pissed off right now. In fact, I still am. Series 3 was a forgone conclusion for next christmas when I get my new HD set. Even if the Series 3 was not offered w/ lifetime, I would have bit. Now I'm not so sure. Tivo managed to pull another $150 bucks out of me today, but it might be the last I every spend with them

Note to Tivo Marketing types:

You have increased the amount of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) by dropping the lifetime option on existing product. I think that a better course of action would have been to continue offering lifetime on the Series 2s (even at a higher price!) and letting the hi-def/flat screen phenomenon drive sales and subscriptions for Series 3. 

Most marketing folks I know have never worked in sales and it shows. Sure Tivo just pulled another $150 out of me short term. But now I'll be seriously considering your competitiors. 

As an orphaned UK customer, my buddy's advice is to forego the series 3 altogether and let the hacking community turn my Series 2 into a Series 3 for me. That may or may not be possible, but I'm willing to wait and keep my wallet shut for a while.

Nice job Marketing! Did you guys come from the company I work for?


----------



## vman41

TiVoPony said:


> By the way - I've never been able to resolve those that say "If TiVo doesn't change, they're going to die!" with those that say "TiVo's changed! They're going to die!".


You're heading towards a boulder, change direction! You've changed direction and are heading over a cliff! All change in a negative situation is not positive.


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## Sirshagg

I currently have a DSR6000 (DirecTivo) with lifetime sub that I paid to Tivo before my account was moved to Direct. I also have a HR-250 (HDTivo). 

Many, many years ago I signed up with DirecTv BECAUSE of the DirecTivo - it's ability to record two shows at once and that it required no additional signal recompression. Currently I'm in love with the HDTivo and will luckilly continue to get the mpeg2 feed till they drop it. I could really care less about DirecTv and would switch to any service service which has a dual tuner HD tivo for a reasonable price. 

My question is this - Will Tivo be doing anything to "win back" Tivo customers like myself from DirecTv?


----------



## TiVoStephen

rainwater said:


> I said it several times already. The current 40 hour box + one year prepaid is the same price as the new one year plan. The only difference is if you don't change your plan after one year you are charged $19.95/month after 12 months.
> 
> Also, regarding rebates/incentives, all I am saying is starting in about a week, it will cost more to buy a box and activate service than it does today. That is a price increase no matter how you look at it.


Don't forget that you're not comparing apples to apples. The current, cheaper deal you're talking about is for a 40-hour box. The deal available next week is for an 80-hour box. For many customers, they'll be able to finally afford an 80-hour box since they can get it for no upfront cost.


----------



## Larry in TN

aine said:


> Given that, why would any choose the 2- or 3-year contract?


Because they live paycheck-to-paycheck and are only concerned about how they're going to pay THIS month's bills.

Actually, if they're thinking about this month's bill then they're doing better than most who are only thinking about this WEEK's bills.

I have no doubt that these plans will appeal to a lot of people--in the same way that timeshares or financing purchases on credit cards appeals to so many.

Probably a smart move on TiVo's part though it's a bad thing for those of us who plan our finances a bit farther out.


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## TiVoStephen

Sirshagg said:


> I currently have a DSR6000 (DirecTivo) with lifetime sub that I paid to Tivo before my account was moved to Direct. I also have a HR-250 (HDTivo).


I just wanted to point out that that's not quite accurate -- TiVo never collected service fees for DIRECTV with TiVo units. You paid DIRECTV (who in turn gave TiVo a share). Your relationship was always with DIRECTV. We never moved accounts to DIRECTV -- they were always there. Otherwise you would have had two companies charge you, one from DIRECTV for their service and one from TiVo for your DIRECTV with TiVo service. But that's not what happened. Instead, you only had one charge, from DIRECTV.


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## lajohn27

rainwater said:


> I said it several times already. The current 40 hour box + one year prepaid is the same price as the new one year plan.


You argue with yourself here..

The statement above...

And this statement ...



rainwater said:


> Also, regarding rebates/incentives, all I am saying is starting in about a week, it will cost more to buy a box and activate service than it does today. That is a price increase no matter how you look at it.


Don't jive. Are they the same.. Or is it more?

Right now at TIVO.com - a TIVO box and 1 year of service prepaid are 225.39

With the new plan a TIVO and 1 year of service prepaid is $224.00

I admit I wasn't math major but umm.. that's less. Not more.

Less does not equal a price increase. It's a price decrease.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jerobi said:


> It depends on your outlook. You're right that a lack of lifetime will lower the value. But since retail boxes will no longer be cheap/free after rebate, it would potentially help Ebay sales for buyers that want a second box and would get the MSD. Or even people that just want to pay $13/month (although less of a factor IMO).


TiVo Basic boxes will be a nice in between though. I have two like that on monthly exactly becasue i paid the MSD rate and figured I could drop monthly if the hardware is replaced adn eitehr use them as TiVo Basic or else sell them as TiVo basic. I call those two my Aces in the hole


----------



## mearlus

bferrell said:


> Nick, I agree with most of what you said here, BUT IT IS NOT A LEASE. I have to buy the equipment (which I can do in installments, to make it easier on poor-little-me). If it breaks, tough for me. Buy another one. Series 8 comes out? Buy another one. If you going to make me pay for ever, throw me a bone on the hardware....


I guess lease is a bad term for me to use in my point of view. I look at the word slightly differently than the actual definition of it 

Honestly in my experience if a Tivo is going to break its going to be the hard drive. That is an extreamly easy fix. Not to say that something else could die on it, just that the probability is low. Warranties on anything mean appsolutly nothing to me, no matter what the terms and conditions are to them. I don't look at a warranty thinking its going to save me anything if something dies.

When we purchased our new house this past year and had to furnish it w/ appliances, we picked out the appliances we wanted. Then the retailer tried to sell me on extended warranties and such. He went on to say that if 'such and such a thing happened in a year it would be covered' and if I got 'a lemon out of the box' it would be covered. I simply said, "So, you're admitting to selling piece of crap merchandise?" and he backed off. Granted, that was some extended warranty deal but that's my perspective on warranties in general, they're gimics and don't mean anything.  The manufacture can always come back saying "such and such is broken, that part isn't covered in the warranty and will cost X to fix."

I haven't read the details of the replacement if you're in a contract w/ Tivo for 3 years and such as it's a senario I probably wont ever use so I can't comment on it if the box dies 1 year into the contract.

But say if you pay the fee for the 12 months at $19.95/month for a the 80hr tivo. After month twelve your fee (if you renew your contract) goes down to $12.95/month and you own the box. Then you are just paying the service fee 'for ever' until you unsubscribe. I'm not sure how this is viewed as different...

Nick


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## Larry in TN

HannahWCU said:


> The one year contract is the least expensive over a 3 year period:


Your tables makes it very clear. Let me add in the prepaid options:

Three-Year Cost of the Six Options (listed cheapest to most expensive)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 year prepay contract = $469.00 
2 year prepay contract = $524.40 ($369.00 + 12 * $12.95)
1 year prepay contract = $534.80 ($224.00 + 24 * $12.95)
1 year monthly contract = $550.20
2 year monthly contract = $610.20
3 year monthly contract = $610.20

Of course the most expensive option is likely to be the post popular due to it's having the lowest short-term costs.


----------



## rainwater

lajohn27 said:


> You argue with yourself here..
> 
> The statement above...
> 
> And this statement ...
> 
> Don't jive. Are they the same.. Or is it more?
> 
> Right now at TIVO.com - a TIVO box and 1 year of service prepaid are 225.39
> 
> With the new plan a TIVO and 1 year of service prepaid is $224.00
> 
> I admit I wasn't math major but umm.. that's less. Not more.
> 
> Less does not equal a price increase. It's a price decrease.


I said in one case they are the same. That is not complicated. And the only case is if you get the 1 year service and change your plan after one year. So if one option stays the same and every single other option cost more, then its not a price increase?


----------



## lajohn27

RE: The Lease Debate

I leased a computer from Dell - when it broke not under warranty - I still had to pay for it. And I had to pay for the repairs too. 

J


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## ZeoTiVo

dgh said:


> Those are two funny views of the world. My view is: TiVo used to be available for about a buck a month to those people who were willing to take some risk with respect to hardware and company failures and could do the math and see that this pricing was probably in their favor. It was also available at $12.95 for those who weren't. Now the cheap option is gone and someone is trying to convince me that this is not raising prices. This is actually much more annoying that the removal of the cheap price option.


Well I totally agree with the above but that is also exactly why TiVo dropped the lifetime 

It was great deal for us - A buck a month and resell on Ebay - but TiVo not only lost revenue on the monthly use, they lost the sale of new TiVo to whomever bought the one on Ebay. We kept all the value and it was great -fantastic even.
Most likely sold a lot of TiVo DVRs due to that value.

now TiVo wants the value for their bottom line, so they yanked back the great deal tha tdrove a lot of subs sold early on. Most likely they used your very scenario in the analysis of what to do about lifetime. 

personally I am wondering what bundling deals they will do with the new hardware going forward


----------



## JacksTiVo

It is interesting to read all of the posts concerning the impact of the new pricing structure.

Let's look at the numbers on the lifetime cost of my Series 1  30 hour Sony (SVR-2000) to date.
I bought it in Nov. 2001 or 52 months ago (4-1/3 years).

SVR-2000 cost - $424 including tax. 
Lifetime TIVO Subscript. - $250
March 2005 HD upgrade
to a 200hr (Ebay kit) - $140 (including shipping)

Total cost to date - $814

Average cost per month to date: $814/52 = $15.65 per month

Assume I did not upgrade last year, then cost to date would have been: ($814-140 = 674), $674/52 = $12.95 per month for a 30 hour Series 1 TIVO. So I just now breaking even based on the new plan.

Now you can get a 80 hour Series 2 for 36 months for at either $16.9 per month or $469 prepaid (average $13/month).

In other words, you can get an 80 hour Series 2 with all the networking options & features for the same price as I paid for a Series 1 over 4 years ago.

Remember if my Series 1 died after two or three years, my average cost would have been $674/24 = $28 per month or 674/36 = $18.75 per month.

The new pricing just makes a lot of sense since as technology changes, you can get a new TIVO at a relatively low upfront or monthly cost as compared to risking that the lifetime subscription will eventually break-even.

I bought an 80 hour refurbished unit from TIVO this past December to have the Series 2 features. At a $50 purchase price and $6.95/month, I break even in less than one year based on the new pricing scheme. I can sell it when the new S3 arrives and still have about the same average monthly cost ($13) as I did with owning the series 2 for one year. (We are empty-nesters and only need two TIVO's in our home.)

TIVO versus Cable Company DVR. 
I subscribe to Cablevision (New Jersey) and prior to upgrading my Series 1 last March, I ordered their Scientific-Atlanta DVR dual tuner HD box at $10.00 per month. I had them remove it in less than one week. The TIVO capabilities and ease of use are significantly superior to the cable companies offering. I would rather pay a few dollars more for TIVO than to put up with the inferior product the cable company offered me. By-the-way, Cablevision had indicated that they will be offering TIVO in the latter part of 2006.

I hope this helps in the discussions.

Jack


----------



## cwerdna

vasilemj said:


> Is TiVo trying to push us to their competitors....cough ReplayTV...


It would help if Replay were still in the business of selling standalone PVRs. As far as I know, all the inventory is gone and we're all waiting for them to release their software bundled w/Hauppauge TV tuner cards.

http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/about/replaytv/press.asp?ID=613
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6000219.html

Given that they had stability problems on their own hardware platform that they had control over, it'll be just be really reliable and stable on PC w/random hardware and drivers.


----------



## uclakidd

Stephen or Pony,


I'm confused. I've heard two different things about refurbs on Tivo.com right now. I bought a 40-hour one with the 12 months of service and did 2-day shipping on it. Assuming all goes well, I should receive it by Tues/Wed next week. I was under the impression that March 18 is the deadline for Lifetime, but in a post above, Stephen mentioned that March 15 was the deadline. Which is it?

Also, xnevergiveinx brought the scenario in that if the Tivo doesn't arrive before the cut-off date for lifetime--is there a grace period? I tried rummaging through the thread and found no direct response to him, except what the CSR told him. What's the deal?


Thanks,
Christian


PS: Is there a way to get the TSN already?


----------



## ZeoTiVo

duoart said:


> A buddy in the UK with an ancient Series 1 just alerted me to the change. I got my first Tivo (series 2 w/ 1 year prepaid) in January. Cost me another $150 to go lifetime a couple minutes ago, but it is worth it.
> 
> Had I not been alerted I would be VERY pissed off right now. In fact, I still am. Series 3 was a forgone conclusion for next christmas when I get my new HD set. Even if the Series 3 was not offered w/ lifetime, I would have bit. Now I'm not so sure. Tivo managed to pull another $150 bucks out of me today, but it might be the last I every spend with them
> 
> Note to Tivo Marketing types:
> 
> You have increased the amount of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) by dropping the lifetime option on existing product. I think that a better course of action would have been to continue offering lifetime on the Series 2s (even at a higher price!) and letting the hi-def/flat screen phenomenon drive sales and subscriptions for Series 3.
> 
> Most marketing folks I know have never worked in sales and it shows. Sure Tivo just pulled another $150 out of me short term. But now I'll be seriously considering your competitiors.
> 
> As an orphaned UK customer, my buddy's advice is to forego the series 3 altogether and let the hacking community turn my Series 2 into a Series 3 for me. That may or may not be possible, but I'm willing to wait and keep my wallet shut for a while.
> 
> Nice job Marketing! Did you guys come from the company I work for?


hehe,
turn the series 2 into a series 3 - 

umm two tuners, a whole different encode/decoder chip, bigger CPU, more memory, ethernet port, cable card slot(s) - hmm - looks like you better buy a really nice soldering iron.

personally I would have looked seriously at the competiton before buying a series 2 and did. Will do it again at HD DVR time as well.

HD is not a growth market - it is an early adopter market. I would not count on TVs alone to sell DVRs. I would count on a bundling plan if I was TiVo


----------



## mrjam2jab

Well.....ive been debating on switching my 2nd box to lifetime for sometime now...mentioned this thread and Wednesday due date to the wife....and she said to do it. The box is a 540...so i probably shoulda done it a year ago....


----------



## mtmra70

JacksTiVo said:


> It is interesting to read all of the posts concerning the impact of the new pricing structure.
> 
> Let's look at the numbers on the lifetime cost of my Series 1  30 hour Sony (SVR-2000) to date.


A Sony S1 or S2 TiVo is priceless compared to the units that are now offered. Please subtract $25 from the Sony's 'cost per month'. 

I would pay $100 to have my Sony S2 remote work with my DirecTiVo.


----------



## HDTiVo

Here's another way to look at Lifetime:

Let's say I somehow acquire *secondhand* an unused and unsubed S2. I call TiVo and say I want to sign up. I want to pay $299 today for Lifetime.

At TiVo's monthly cost of subscriber services ($2.25 in FY06, down from $2.99 in FY05) that $299 lasts TiVo 132 months (11 years!!!!) before they lose money on me, not counting the value to them of holding my money! AND not counting any other revenues TiVo might get from other sources because they have one more box subed in their universe.

How is this a bad deal or unprofitable for TiVo? I can't figure it out.


----------



## lajohn27

rainwater said:


> I said in one case they are the same. That is not complicated. And the only case is if you get the 1 year service and change your plan after one year. So if one option stays the same and every single other option cost more, then its not a price increase?


What option costs more? The two or three year terms? Those are optional.

The only way to buy your argument is that because of the loss of lifetime; it's a price increase.

On that point - I'll agree. But if you're selling apples for 25c a piece and it costs you 30c to sell them. How long will you be in business?

So many people in this thread take the loss of the lifetime service option as a personal affront to those who have so long supported TIVO.

It's nothing personal. It's business.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> Here's another way to look at Lifetime:
> 
> Let's say I somehow acquire *secondhand* an unused and unsubed S2. I call TiVo and say I want to sign up. I want to pay $299 today for Lifetime.
> 
> At TiVo's monthly cost of subscriber services ($2.25 in FY06, down from $2.99 in FY05) that $299 lasts TiVo 132 months (11 years!!!!) before they lose money on me, not counting the value to them of holding my money! AND not counting any other revenues TiVo might get from other sources because they have one more box subed in their universe.
> 
> How is this a bad deal or unprofitable for TiVo? I can't figure it out.


I forget the correct number since some used the 3rd quarter spike in this but due to rebates and so forth there is a significant cost to tiVo of getting the sub.

something like 178$ (which is most likely the high one) anyhow - that cost needs to be factored in as well


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> Here's another way to look at Lifetime:
> 
> Let's say I somehow acquire *secondhand* an unused and unsubed S2. I call TiVo and say I want to sign up. I want to pay $299 today for Lifetime.
> 
> At TiVo's monthly cost of subscriber services ($2.25 in FY06, down from $2.99 in FY05) that $299 lasts TiVo 132 months (11 years!!!!) before they lose money on me, not counting the value to them of holding my money! AND not counting any other revenues TiVo might get from other sources because they have one more box subed in their universe.
> 
> How is this a bad deal or unprofitable for TiVo? I can't figure it out.


HD that number you are quoting is the cost of the raw guide data. Doesn't include the cost of the servers, hardware and software to host it, the bandwidth to serve it, the people to maintain the above, the cost of development of software, of marketing, of tradeshows, of customer service reps to answer phones, costs of phone lines, lease costs, and on and on and on.

To hang an argument on that figure is preposterous.

And nevermind that if the box costs TIVO 160$ .. then selling it for 80$ costs money too. Yes you neatly excluded that cost in your example. But the vast majority of consumers will get a new box. The people in this forum are exceptions.

Everybody here thinks we're the rule for some reason.


----------



## dstoffa

JacksTiVo said:


> It is interesting to read all of the posts concerning the impact of the new pricing structure.
> 
> Let's look at the numbers on the lifetime cost of my Series 1  30 hour Sony (SVR-2000) to date.
> I bought it in Nov. 2001 or 52 months ago (4-1/3 years).
> 
> SVR-2000 cost - $424 including tax.
> Lifetime TIVO Subscript. - $250
> March 2005 HD upgrade
> to a 200hr (Ebay kit) - $140 (including shipping)
> 
> Total cost to date - $814
> 
> Average cost per month to date: $814/52 = $15.65 per month
> 
> Assume I did not upgrade last year, then cost to date would have been: ($814-140 = 674), $674/52 = $12.95 per month for a 30 hour Series 1 TIVO. So I just now breaking even based on the new plan.


But what could you sell it for TODAY? You need to figure its worth TODAY and subtract that from your cost to determine how much you *paid* per month for it.



JacksTiVo said:


> Now you can get a 80 hour Series 2 for 36 months for at either $16.9 per month or $469 prepaid (average $13/month).


And it has no worth at the end of the prepaid period, as compared to a unit that has a lifetime subscription attached to it.

This is similar to the Lifetime or Monthly debate. Lifetime was always the way to go, because the lifetime subscription ALWAYS put equity in the box. You can recoup most of the $$$ spent on a lifetime box when you sell it. The only risk was from acts of god (lightning strike, etc.) The hard drive is really the only thing that should fail in a DVR - and those can be replaced (cheap nowadays, too.)

What TIVO has done is increase cash flow, and taken the value of the hardware away from the consumer.

Penny-wise and pound-follish if you ask me.

ReplayTV got out of the stand-alone DVR business because they knew they could not compete with content provider boxes. Tivo thinks they can still compete. In my opinion, the masses will always choose the cheaper option, as they typically are not power users.

If John Q Consumer can pay his cable company $5 or $10 / month versus Tivo's asking price, 9 times out of 10 he'll take the Cable Company Box.

-Doug


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> HD that number you are quoting is the cost of the raw guide data. Doesn't include the cost of the servers, hardware and software to host it, the bandwidth to serve it, the people to maintain the above, the cost of development of software, of marketing, of tradeshows, of customer service reps to answer phones, costs of phone lines, lease costs, and on and on and on.
> 
> To hang an argument on that figure is preposterous.
> 
> And nevermind that if the box costs TIVO 160$ .. then selling it for 80$ costs money too. Yes you neatly excluded that cost in your example. But the vast majority of consumers will get a new box. The people in this forum are exceptions.
> 
> Everybody here thinks we're the rule for some reason.


The Service Cost includes all the appropriate items you list. This is about marginal profit on a subscriber. I used the secondhand example precisely because it completely eliminates from the calculation hardware costs.

Nothing preposterous, but maybe you have something to adjust in my numbers.


----------



## HDTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> I forget the correct number since some used the 3rd quarter spike in this but due to rebates and so forth there is a significant cost to tiVo of getting the sub.
> 
> something like 178$ (which is most likely the high one) anyhow - that cost needs to be factored in as well


Yes, but that is about the cost of geting a new subscriber with a new box. That's why I took the secondhand example, to eliminate all of that. There's only a few dollars left at most in the process of taking the credit card number, etc. to start the account up.


----------



## SnakeEyes

dstoffa said:


> If John Q Consumer can pay his cable company $5 or $10 / month versus Tivo's asking price, 9 times out of 10 he'll take the Cable Company Box.
> 
> -Doug


Then why are cable DVR subs not increasing by that ratio?


----------



## NotmyName

For the refurb offer:
I can't post it because this is my first post but if you go the refurb offer page and click on "Offer Details"
It states that you can upgrade to lifetime and that you must Purchase before 3/12/2006 and activate before 3/31/2006 not "before we stop offering lifetime subscriptions"


----------



## bhorstkotte

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> [Will my] grandfathered lifetime S1 be transferable to an S3 when they come out?
> >>Absolutely. I already confirmed this in a thread last week.


I assume this doesn't apply to S1 DTivos, since DirecTV handles their TiVos by themselves now (and they won't transfer either)?

I'm also disappointed at lifetime being discontinued, but then they weren't an option for me anyway because DTV discontinued them a while back (however both my S1s are lifetimed already). I would have paid more for lifetime too, if/when I upgrade to something else - I hate unnecessary monetary commitments (including prepaid annual service contracts).

I guess it comes down to this: many of us think of TiVo as a product; TiVo thinks of it a service - ultimately, its both. TiVo has every right to do what it needs to do to expand its market and profitability; and we have every right to start looking elsewhere for options when the options they offer don't appeal to us anymore.

I love my S1 DTivos, but when it comes time to upgrade to HD, I'll consider all available options - at the current prices, the DTV DVRs (warts and all) look like a lot better deal.


----------



## interactiveTV

lajohn27 said:


> So many people in this thread take the loss of the lifetime service option as a personal affront to those who have so long supported TIVO.
> 
> It's nothing personal. It's business.


 Exactly.

Tivo has been in search of a profitable business model since day 1 and hasn't found it yet. I've seen many defenses of Tivo posted that ultimately a subbed box will become profitable but that hasn't panned out. Part of it is the support costs and fixed costs of the organization but for whatever reason -- and we can go through them in boredom -- Tivo hasn't been able to truly make profitability.

My problems with this scheme aren't based on Tivo's need to make money. It does. From a consumer POV, losing lifetime option going forward doesn't sit well with me but that's life.

My problem is I don't think this will work. It's VERY confusing -- yes, people can post how simple it is but considering Tivo still has a hard time explainign what a Tivo is, now it has to explain the different pricing structures too.

I also find it terrible that a consumer must call after 1 year (or whatever) to get the reduced pricing. That is a TERRIBLE change to sleazy tactics knowing consumers won't remember -- or know -- to call after 1 year.

I guess it's yet ANOTHER Tivo attempt to throw SOMETHING at wall and have it stick. A FAQ should have been in place already, bare minimum.

The good news is: Tivo has shown a GREAT willingness to change pricing structures, hardware price points, etc in the past and if (when?) this falls flat on its face, Tivo will announce yet another scheme in search of profits.

I agree with some others though, it seems strange that lifetime would have to cost SOOO much to have Tivo make money. If the hardware costs X and 5 years (or whatever expected lifespan of a box is which probably lessens in the age of HD and ATSC) of service costs Y, why not charge X + Y +$100?

The reason: Subscriber acquisition costs are CRAZY. You have to add Z -- SAC 

Personally, I think Tivo marketing has been TERRIBLE. Those wierd cartoon ads (like Stedman drawings), the placement in magazine for people who don't watch TV, etc.

In a sense, current subscribers buying another or a replacement box are penalized (wrong term but whatever) for the crazy SAC since they are already a subscriber.

IMO, Tivo keeps playing with the hardware/service options but the real problem is distribution/SAC which changes dramatically (hopefully) in a full CC world (multistream and 2-way). Comcast boxes won't have that crazy SAC and pricing should be VERY normal. Tivo can't partner with a MSO for the S3 until there is 2 way (why would an MSO want to give up VOD revenue?) but that's the best solution, IMO.

Tivo has always been a GREAT product in search of a profitable business model (contrary to past arguements that it was). The search continues with more complexity and yet another attempt to spread the SAC around.

Tivo needs to LOWER the SAC, not re-spread it like butter around the toast. The marketing has been one constantly BAD point for years. This might be an attempt to lower SAC but in such a convoluted way it makes me dizzy.

I applaud the desire and attempt to find a profitable model. I just think this attempt will end like the others: with yet another change in scheme in the future.

_ITV

EDIT: Of course, if the hardware sold for $400 -- which would include a hefty margin -- service for 5 years was $6/month and SAC was about $190, the average for past 12 months, why can't Tivo offer a box $400 and pay $550 for lifetime? An option for those who want it.


----------



## mtmra70

SnakeEyes said:


> Then why are cable DVR subs not increasing by that ratio?


They arnt? I am the only person in my family with a TiVo and 1 1/2 years ago, no one in my family had a DVR. Now a lot of them have gone with a Dish DVR or other cable/sat line of DVR. And with DTV now offering *lite* DVR functionality in even the basic receivers, I would bet you will start to see an increase in non-TiVo purchases (rentals/leases).


----------



## HDTiVo

mtmra70 said:


> They arnt? I am the only person in my family with a TiVo and 1 1/2 years ago, no one in my family had a DVR. Now a lot of them have gone with a Dish DVR or other cable/sat line of DVR. And with DTV now offering *lite* DVR functionality in even the basic receivers, I would bet you will start to see an increase in non-TiVo purchases (rentals/leases).


Cable DVR uptake is on fire... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3744614&&#post3744614

A different subject, but an opportunity for TiVo Cable Box Software. :up:


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

Can I buy "Lifetime Service" for my Series 2 TiVo today and be offered to transfer my "Lifetime Service" to the Series 3 TiVo for:

1. Maybe a limited time

or

2. For a small transfer fee

or something that will push me to convert my 5 TiVo's to "Lifetime Service" at $299 each and give TiVo an infusion of cash today.


----------



## MickeS

interactiveTV said:


> The marketing has been one constantly BAD point for years. This might be an attempt to lower SAC but in such a convoluted way it makes me dizzy.
> 
> I applaud the desire and attempt to find a profitable model. I just think this attempt will end like the others: with yet another change in scheme in the future.


You expressed exactly what I feel too. I have seen more ads for the cable DVR in the last few months than I have seen for TiVo in the last 5 years. Unless TiVo gets an enormous influx of customers due to these new prices, we'll surely see some other pricing scheme in less than a year.


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> The Service Cost includes all the appropriate items you list. This is about marginal profit on a subscriber. I used the secondhand example precisely because it completely eliminates from the calculation hardware costs.
> 
> Nothing preposterous, but maybe you have something to adjust in my numbers.


Clearly it doesn't. For if it did, TIVO would be profitable 12 x over by now.

J


----------



## Stormspace

Has anyone heard if the new pricing schemes will apply to the Series 3? If they do my 12.95 box will drop to 6.95 and I'll only be paying the difference between that and the new price for the Series 3. 

Also, on the Series 3, does it come with a generic cable card capable of receiving analog cable signals? Or will I have to rent a Cable Card from my provider in addition to the TiVo monthly fee?


----------



## Frankenstien

Okay, I just wanted to get in a quick 2 cents. 

First, thanks to TiVoOpsMgr & TiVoPony for getting on the boards and banging it out. I know you guys probably dreaded it, but to me it says a lot that you are willing to do it. 

Second, I understand why TiVo is making this move and I think it makes sense. I think the no upfront cost option will work better for people new to TiVo. You also take care of the folks who already have TiVo by letting them keep the price options they already have on their existing equipment. 

Last, I know you haven't and can't announce Series 3 pricing yet, but a bundled service contract with no upfront price sounds pretty good to me. That means I'll be able to get a Series 3 much sooner than I was planning. 

Anyway, I think the changes are good for TiVo and I want TiVo to stick around. I also appreciate the heads up on the changes and you guys hanging in here to answer questions and explain things.


----------



## TiVoPony

Frankenstien said:


> Anyway, I think the changes are good for TiVo and I want TiVo to stick around. I also appreciate the heads up on the changes and you guys hanging in here to answer questions and explain things.


You're welcome!

Pony


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

1. Removal of MSD altogether on bundled boxes could easily be considered a price increase. What's wrong with still subtracting $6/mo from their agreement? Charge $14, $13 or $11 for 1, 2 or 3 year agreements respectively. You'd still get your bundle premium, and it still encourages multiple purchases.

2. The hardware really should be covered for the length of the agreement. As long as there is a $12.95 service-only option in existance, anything charged over that is going to be considered going towards the payment of the hardware. To charge for a replacement is double-dipping in two ways:

- We've already paid towards the hardware up to that point.
- Charging us more than $12.95 after we've bought the replacement.

Both are unfair, so the only correct thing to do would be credit the amount over $12.95/mo towards the hardware up to that point against the cost of the replacement AND/OR switch us to $12.95/mo for the rest of the term since the replacement was purchased.


----------



## SnakeEyes

mtmra70 said:


> They arnt? I am the only person in my family with a TiVo and 1 1/2 years ago, no one in my family had a DVR. Now a lot of them have gone with a Dish DVR or other cable/sat line of DVR. And with DTV now offering *lite* DVR functionality in even the basic receivers, I would bet you will start to see an increase in non-TiVo purchases (rentals/leases).


anecdotal evidence which does nothing to prove 9 out of 10 and speculation which may relate to future subs.


----------



## JacksTiVo

dstoffa said:


> But what could you sell it for TODAY? You need to figure its worth TODAY and subtract that from your cost to determine how much you *paid* per month for it.
> 
> And it has no worth at the end of the prepaid period, as compared to a unit that has a lifetime subscription attached to it.
> 
> This is similar to the Lifetime or Monthly debate. Lifetime was always the way to go, because the lifetime subscription ALWAYS put equity in the box. You can recoup most of the $$$ spent on a lifetime box when you sell it. The only risk was from acts of god (lightning strike, etc.) The hard drive is really the only thing that should fail in a DVR - and those can be replaced (cheap nowadays, too.)
> 
> What TIVO has done is increase cash flow, and taken the value of the hardware away from the consumer.
> 
> Penny-wise and pound-follish if you ask me.
> 
> ReplayTV got out of the stand-alone DVR business because they knew they could not compete with content provider boxes. Tivo thinks they can still compete. In my opinion, the masses will always choose the cheaper option, as they typically are not power users.
> 
> If John Q Consumer can pay his cable company $5 or $10 / month versus Tivo's asking price, 9 times out of 10 he'll take the Cable Company Box.
> 
> -Doug


You are correct that the lifetime Series 1 TIVO I own has residual value, especially now that Lifetime is no longer available. I did not take that into account for my analysis since my assumption was that the box had a non-repairable failure today. By-the-way, several postings today mentioned TIVO box failures and it would be interesting to know what was the failure mechanism. I have saved my old 30 hour hard drive just encase the one I purchased last year fails.

The new plan TIVO boxes will also have some residual value, although small, in that at the end of the payment period (1, 2 or 3 years) you own it. I assume it can then be sold and the new owner will only have to pay the $12.95 per month (or whatever the charge is at that time) for the service. (No multiple service discount on these new units after the plan period ends,as I understand it.)

Jack


----------



## dswallow

Is there a way to cancel service prior to the end of the commitment period?

For example, if person X buys a unit on a 3 year commitment, but in year 2 of it they get transferred to Zimbabwe and can't use the TiVo, is there an out for them other than paying in full the balance for the commitment period... like a way to pay the balance less service costs since they have no need for service anymore, or a way to return the equipment and just not owe anything more?


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Clearly it doesn't. For if it did, TIVO would be profitable 12 x over by now.
> 
> J


During FY06 and FY05 TiVo had $36M and $32.5M in gross margin from Services. This was not enough to cover the expenses of the rest of the company. However, as I calculated much earlier in the thread, about 450K additional subscribers under the old price model would get the overall company to break-even *while still maintaining the investment in additional subscriber growth and patent litigation costs.*


----------



## TiVoPony

dswallow said:


> Is there a way to cancel service prior to the end of the commitment period?
> 
> For example, if person X buys a unit on a 3 year commitment, but in year 2 of it they get transferred to Zimbabwe and can't use the TiVo, is there an out for them other than paying in full the balance for the commitment period... like a way to pay the balance less service costs since they have no need for service anymore, or a way to return the equipment and just not owe anything more?


From the press release:
"As is the case with subscribing to the TiVo service today, an early cancellation fee will apply if service is terminated prior to the end of the chosen period."

Returning the equipment is not an option - you own it. You're not renting a cable box, you've purchased the DVR.

Pony


----------



## Dan Clarke

I have Two S2 Tivos both with lifetime. I also have a Cable DVR. I pay $9.95 a month for my Cable DVR. I despise it. It sometimes records shows. It sometimes doesn't. It has a whopping 10 hour HD capacity.

That being said, the chances of me now getting a series three are zero. There's no way I'd pay a premium price plus pay a premium monthly fee with zero discount whatsoever. Way to thank your loyal fans! I can't imagine anyone thinking this is better, except the Accounting department at Tivo. 

On the bright side, it made my Tivo stock go way up. Wee, it's over $6.00 a share!

I'm costing TiVo money. My 2 lifetime S2's are both over 2 years old. Financially I see how this makes sense. For the consumer it sucks. 

Even XM radio has a multi service discount!!!!

I can now sell my Tivo stock at a profit and buy an S3...so ther'es that I guess.

I'm venting.


----------



## jsmeeker

Dan Clarke said:


> Even XM radio has a multi service discount!!!!
> 
> .


So does TiVo


----------



## dstoffa

JacksTiVo said:


> You are correct that the lifetime Series 1 TIVO I own has residual value, especially now that Lifetime is no longer available. I did not take that into account for my analysis since my assumption was that the box had a non-repairable failure today. By-the-way, several postings today mentioned TIVO box failures and it would be interesting to know what was the failure mechanism. I have saved my old 30 hour hard drive just encase the one I purchased last year fails.


A lifetime subscription adds $200-$250 to the cost of a second-hand unit. You could probably sell your Series 1 for $250-300.

If a DVR survives the warranty period, then it likely will survive as long as there is no act of god. The only parts with moving parts are the hard drives and the cooling fans. Those can be replaced. Netowrk / modems can fail if the unit or attached cables are struck by lightning. Tuners can suffer the same fate.



JacksTiVo said:


> The new plan TIVO boxes will also have some residual value, although small, in that at the end of the payment period (1, 2 or 3 years) you own it. I assume it can then be sold and the new owner will only have to pay the $12.95 per month (or whatever the charge is at that time) for the service. (No multiple service discount on these new units after the plan period ends,as I understand it.)
> 
> Jack


A box without a subscription is worth the hard drive. Maybe you can get some $$$ for the remote. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone to buy your used box. Why pay $50 for a used box when you can get a new one for contract less the subscription cost? I don't see used DVRs retaining their value unless they have a subscription.

-Doug


----------



## timckelley

I'm about 2 months into my one year contract on my series one TiVo. Am I allowed to upgrade to lifetime before the one year expires?


----------



## TiVoPony

Dan Clarke said:


> I have Two S2 Tivos both with lifetime. I also have a Cable DVR. I pay $9.95 a month for my Cable DVR. I despise it. It sometimes records shows. It sometimes doesn't. It has a whopping 10 hour HD capacity.
> 
> That being said, the chances of me now getting a series three are zero. There's no way I'd pay a premium price plus pay a premium monthly fee with zero discount whatsoever.
> 
> I can't imagine anyone thinking this is better, except the Accounting department at Tivo.
> 
> On the bright side, it made my Tivo stock go way up. Wee, it's over $6.00 a share!
> 
> I'm costing TiVo money. My 2 lifetime S2's are both over 2 years old. Financially I see how this makes sense. For the consumer it sucks.
> 
> Even XM radio has a multi service discount!!!!


Dan, I know there's been a lot of discussion here, but TiVo does continue to offer a multi-service discount. It's just not available for plans where we give you the hardware for free. If you opt to get the hardware for free, the MSD does not apply to that box - it's ineligible for the term of the contract.

Bundled plan boxes can however be used as the qualifying box to enable a non-bundled box to receive the MSD.

Pony


----------



## kbmb

So I have a couple questions regarding buying a TiVo box at retail:

1) So I assume TiVo themselves will not be selling boxes anymore....only offering them through the bundle?

2) If I go into Best Buy or some other retailer.....what am I going to be able to buy....just 80 hr units? Are the 40 hr units discontinued?

3) Any idea on the pricing of these retail units? 

4) I'm assuming TiVo won't be offering any rebates on these now as they will want people to get the discount offer?

Thanks!

-Kevin


----------



## duoart

ZeoTiVo said:


> hehe,
> turn the series 2 into a series 3 -
> 
> umm two tuners, a whole different encode/decoder chip, bigger CPU, more memory, ethernet port, cable card slot(s) - hmm - looks like you better buy a really nice soldering iron.
> 
> personally I would have looked seriously at the competiton before buying a series 2 and did. Will do it again at HD DVR time as well.
> 
> HD is not a growth market - it is an early adopter market. I would not count on TVs alone to sell DVRs. I would count on a bundling plan if I was TiVo


HD it at the edge of being a growth market. In another 2 years the bigger electronics chains will be considering dropping the older sets. In 5 years WalMart will drop them just like they dropped VHS recorders this year.

Skate to where the puck is going, not where it is!

It certainly would be fruitless to try and re-wire a series 2 with different chips and CPUS, but there's nothing stopping someone from networking a series 2 and a nicely equipped PC and have the PC do the dirty work under Tivo's command. That little linux box is pretty flexable.

Yes, I'm reaching, but you get my point.

Maybe I spoke too soon. My sister and I just ordered a series 2 for my parents at Best Buy and will be activating it with lifetime this afternoon. Does Tivo really want a run on series 2 lifetime subscriptions this week?

Law of unintended consequences or?


----------



## uclakidd

I think I get this whole thing now.


- Buy a TiVo at BestBuy and everything is normal just like it's always been. You pay $12.95/mo and if you buy another you pay 6.95/mo for that one. The difference seems to be that there will no longer be any rebates(?) like there's always been. Also, no more lifetime.

- If you buy from TiVo directly, the new plans are in effect. But if you buy another box from another retailer besides Tivo, you get to pay 6.95/mo for that box for service.


Seems like the only thing that's gone is lifetime (which is understandable, it wasn't at first, but I get it now). I don't understand what everyone's confusion is.



Though, I wish Pony or Stephen would answer my question about my TiVo refurb that I purchased today. That is, if it gets here AFTER march 15, can I still lifetime it?


----------



## jerobi

TiVoPony said:


> Dan, I know there's been a lot of discussion here, but TiVo does continue to offer a multi-service discount. It's just not available for plans where we give you the hardware for free. If you opt to get the hardware for free, the MSD does not apply to that box - it's ineligible for the term of the contract.
> 
> Bundled plan boxes can however be used as the qualifying box to enable a non-bundled box to receive the MSD.
> 
> Pony


So close, Pony! I've asked before and I'm hoping for a solid answer so I don't misinform others.

If I bought a 1-year plan bundled Tivo, would I be able to convert it to the MSD plan on the 13th month? IE, is it indeed the term of the contract or the life of that bundled box?


----------



## Bai Shen

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Good question, I haven't touched on that previously.
> 
> Let me introduce the acronym "MSD" for Multiple Subscription Discount.
> 
> Basically MSD is completely unchanged from today. Whatever qualifies you today, continues to qualify you in the future. Units that are eligible today are still eligible.
> 
> Eligible units are defined in our MSD faq at http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp#MSD:
> 
> So, if you have an existing contract with us that's a full-price monthly or annual or Product LIfetime subscription, we call that a "qualifying unit" because it enables you to get up to 5 other units at the MSD price.
> 
> Next week, there will be new options. The brand new bundling pricing options, and the new prepaid service-only pricing options, are not NOT eligible for MSD, as previously stated. But they DO qualify as full-price units.
> 
> So, for your scenario, let's say you have an existing $12.95 contract (regardless of whether or not it is within the commitment period). You get one of the new bundled service options. Now you have a qualifying unit, so your existing contract automatically becomes $6.95 a month until you cancel one contract or the other.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


What determines the same connection? I want to give my parents my S1 tivo, but keep it on my account and pay the bill for them. I jus' went lifetime on my S2(because of this whole deal), so would I be able to keep the 6.95 price of the S1?


----------



## jerobi

kbmb said:


> So I have a couple questions regarding buying a TiVo box at retail:
> 
> 1) So I assume TiVo themselves will not be selling boxes anymore....only offering them through the bundle?
> 
> 2) If I go into Best Buy or some other retailer.....what am I going to be able to buy....just 80 hr units? Are the 40 hr units discontinued?
> 
> 3) Any idea on the pricing of these retail units?
> 
> 4) I'm assuming TiVo won't be offering any rebates on these now as they will want people to get the discount offer?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Kevin


From what I've gathered:
1) Not certain, maybe they'll still offer refurbs directly. Their push will definitely be on the new bundle plans, regardless.
2) The 40hr units are going away very soon, if they haven't been officially discontiued already.
3) They can't say, other than that rebates are going away, and if you have to pay full price on retail boxes then it certainly puts the bundles as an equal or better option.
4) Exactly. I'm sure they would prefer more bundle purchases - they likely make a better margin selling directly, too.


----------



## Larry in TN

TiVoPony said:


> For free hardware, you pay a higher service fee.


Hi Pony,

I understand exactly what you're saying here but I humbly suggest that you ought to find a different way to say it. The sentence quoted above looks like double-speak. If you're paying a higher fee to get the hardware then the hardware isn't free. As it is, it looks like the type of thing that Consumer Reports would print on the inside page of their back cover. (Ads which use (not so) clever words to made a deal sound better than it really is)

I think that Stephen used the phrase "...hardware with no upfront costs" which seems more appropriate and less likely to cause any confusion.

How will the marketing be worded?

FWIW, I think the new plans will do exactly what they are intended to do--appeal to the masses. Doesn't mean I won't miss the $299 lifetime deal.


----------



## TiVoPony

uclakidd said:


> I think I get this whole thing now.
> 
> - Buy a TiVo at BestBuy and everything is normal just like it's always been. You pay $12.95/mo and if you buy another you pay 6.95/mo for that one. The difference seems to be that there will no longer be any rebates(?) like there's always been. Also, no more lifetime.
> 
> - If you buy from TiVo directly, the new plans are in effect. But if you buy another box from another retailer besides Tivo, you get to pay 6.95/mo for that box for service.
> 
> Seems like the only thing that's gone is lifetime (which is understandable, it wasn't at first, but I get it now). I don't understand what everyone's confusion is.
> 
> Though, I wish Pony or Stephen would answer my question about my TiVo refurb that I purchased today. That is, if it gets here AFTER march 15, can I still lifetime it?


Hey uclakid,

You ordered a box before this announcement, expecting to buy lifetime when it arrives. That shouldn't be a problem, and if it is, just let either Stephen or me know.

Thanks,
Pony


----------



## greg_burns

NotmyName said:


> For the refurb offer:
> I can't post it because this is my first post but if you go the refurb offer page and click on "Offer Details"
> It states that you can upgrade to lifetime and that you must Purchase before 3/12/2006 and activate before 3/31/2006 not "before we stop offering lifetime subscriptions"


http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp



> Service must be activated by March 31, 2006. An additional fee of $150 may be charged to the credit card that was used for purchase of the DVR if TiVo® service is not activated by March 31, 2006.
> 
> Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation.


It says you must activate by 3/31. It does not say you can still get the Lifetime until 3/31.

Stephen made it sound pretty clear you had to get it activated by the cut-off date or else. 

Can Stephen or Pony clear this up. I would *not * have ordered two weeks ago had a known about this. And now I am in limbo-land (and so it seems are a couple others). 

*Edit: I see Pony touched on this in the thread above. Looks like I'm covered.

So, I should tell my friend not to try and order one today in the hopes of being in a 30-day grace period window? Can we continue to order refurbs up until next week, or did we have to have placed the order before the annoucement. *


----------



## cwoody222

Bai Shen said:


> What determines the same connection? I want to give my parents my S1 tivo, but keep it on my account and pay the bill for them. I jus' went lifetime on my S2(because of this whole deal), so would I be able to keep the 6.95 price of the S1?


Assuming that you and your parents' live in different houses, no, those units will not qualify.

"same connection" means connected to the same phone line or on the same network within the same residence.


----------



## duoart

uclakidd said:


> SNIP!
> 
> Though, I wish Pony or Stephen would answer my question about my TiVo refurb that I purchased today. That is, if it gets here AFTER march 15, can I still lifetime it?


cancel the order and go to you local bestbuy and get a 80GB unit and send in the rebate. ( $219 -$150) and lifetime it. My sister and I are doing so for my parents today.


----------



## TiVoPony

jerobi said:


> So close, Pony! I've asked before and I'm hoping for a solid answer so I don't misinform others.
> 
> If I bought a 1-year plan bundled Tivo, would I be able to convert it to the MSD plan on the 13th month? IE, is it indeed the term of the contract or the life of that bundled box?


Once you've completed a bundled plan, that box is eligible for MSD. But you'll of course have to have a non-MSD box on your account at the time as well.

Pony


----------



## jerobi

TiVoPony said:


> Once you've completed a bundled plan, that box is eligible for MSD. But you'll of course have to have a non-MSD box on your account at the time as well.
> 
> Pony


Great. That was my expectation as well, but I've been hearing it go back and forth so it's nice to hear it from you. Thanks.


----------



## TiVoMonkey

Stormspace said:


> Also, on the Series 3, does it come with a generic cable card capable of receiving analog cable signals? Or will I have to rent a Cable Card from my provider in addition to the TiVo monthly fee?


I don't think there is such a thing as a "generic" CableCard.

However, my CableCard capable TV receives analog and unencrypted digital/HD channels just fine without a CableCard inserted.

I imagine the tuners in the Series 3 would be the same.


----------



## sommerfeld

rainwater said:


> Actually, they have done real research. There are people out there right now not paying the $12.95/month (paying more). If you search the forums, you can read about a few of the deals TiVo has offered lately. I'm sure it was all a part of their research.


But have they really researched what people are willing to pay for *lifetime* service? I don't think so...


----------



## Stormspace

cwoody222 said:


> Assuming that you and your parents' live in different houses, no, those units will not qualify.
> 
> "same connection" means connected to the same phone line or on the same network within the same residence.


How is that different than having two residences with a tivo in each one? I don't think you're definition is correct. I hope not at least.


----------



## lajohn27

Actually Steven posts in this thread much earlier that they did. And the rate was high enough to scare people off.. 

He never said this - but I'd guess they'd have to double it almost... to 599 or 699.

I REPEAT - HE NEVER SAID THAT.

J


----------



## dstoffa

sommerfeld said:


> But have they really researched what people are willing to pay for *lifetime* service? I don't think so...


Pensions are now the same way. Used to be your pension was guarenteed. Now, you have a 401-k, where ultimately, YOU are responsible for your pension, not some company.

Tivo wants to rid themselves of the burden of lifetime units, regardless.

All units from this time forward will be paying into Tivo. There are eliminating risk.

-Doug


----------



## Stormspace

TiVoMonkey said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a "generic" CableCard.
> 
> However, my CableCard capable TV receives analog and unencrypted digital/HD channels just fine without a CableCard inserted.
> 
> I imagine the tuners in the Series 3 would be the same.


That's what I meant.


----------



## sommerfeld

dstoffa said:


> All units from this time forward will be paying into Tivo. The[y] are eliminating risk.


You can never eliminate risk. But there are other ways they could reduce risk without eliminating the lifetime option.

As a consumer of the service, the business rationale for the change is utterly irrelevant.
I'm just stating facts here. Series 3 with lifetime option would have been a "no brainer" for me. But now I'm looking at alternatives for HD standalone PVR capability.

One possibility: competitive suppliers of program guide info for TiVo.


----------



## Bierboy

sommerfeld said:


> ...One possibility: competitive suppliers of program guide info for TiVo.


They all suck in comparison.


----------



## MickeS

cwoody222 said:


> Assuming that you and your parents' live in different houses, no, those units will not qualify.
> 
> "same connection" means connected to the same phone line or on the same network within the same residence.


Where do you get that definition from? I can't imagine that they would keep track of where the TiVo is physically, as long as it's on the same account.


----------



## ebf

Back in December I cashed in my *35,000 rewards points* for Lifetime Service on our, then, second box. Will this be affected-- ever? What happens if I want to give the box to someone else later... Will they still keep the "free" Evaluation status?



Angela Tamblin said:


> ... Please note that your new Product Lifetime Service account activated through Rewards redemption will appear as an Evaluation unit on Manage My Account. Please rest assured that this account will function the same as any other Product Lifetime account and will not be cancelled at any time.


I assume the "evaluation unit" designation is to allow TiVo to track boxes which are not eligible for the subsequent Multi-Unit Service Discount.


----------



## dstoffa

sommerfeld said:


> You can never eliminate risk. But there are other ways they could reduce risk without eliminating the lifetime option.


The bean counters have decided that the lifetime subscriptions become a burden on the company. With the ability for end-users to repair and upgrade their units, Tivo has realized that these end users are getting the better end of the deal.

Maybe Tivo's financial backers want to see steady cash flow over time. Getting rid of the lifetime subscription model actually makes cash flow.

Sad how it may be, financial backers of Tivo do not care about lifetime subscribers because, in the end, they are dead-end users, and become a burden on the balance sheet. They are interested in revenue streams. Monthly based subscriptions make this happen.

When first offered, the risk of lifetime subscriptions was on the end user. Now, the risk is on Tivo. They do no want this risk (finacial burden), so they elminated it.

-Doug


----------



## bferrell

dstoffa said:


> The bean counters have decided that the lifetime subscriptions become a burden on the company. With the ability for end-users to repair and upgrade their units, Tivo has realized that these end users are getting the better end of the deal.
> 
> Maybe Tivo's financial backers want to see steady cash flow over time. Getting rid of the lifetime subscription model actually makes cash flow.
> 
> Sad how it may be, financial backers of Tivo do not care about lifetime subscribers because, in the end, they are dead-end users, and become a burden on the balance sheet. They are interested in revenue streams. Monthly based subscriptions make this happen.
> 
> When first offered, the risk of lifetime subscriptions was on the end user. Now, the risk is on Tivo. They do no want this risk (finacial burden), so they elminated it.
> 
> -Doug


I get all of that, really, I do, but I'm just not going to pay FOREVER for a online guide and some fancy recording options. Why don't they allow me to buy into a plan that is capped at 5, 10, whatever years, for a higher price? That's what the whole car warranty market is about, betting that I'll change hardware before I reach the guarentee period. This is the reason it took me so long to get a Tivo in the first place.

Besides that, Tivo, your competition is charging less, gives updated hardware for "free", and has easier access to the customers and free advertising. Better software isn't going to beat that. Give me a REASON to stay with Tivo, other than I think it's cool. PLEASE.


----------



## Aggienzonna

I am a current lifetime subscriber.
I was looking t get a second connection and the DVR w/ Recordable CD.
I could not figure out online how I can get the service for #6.95 a month. It mentions it but I see no option when trying to buy.
I also though I would just buy another lifetime with the new machine it ios still listed on the frot page of the web site. But again I found no option to purchase it at checkout.
Can you help me.
Thanks


----------



## HDTiVo

dstoffa said:


> Maybe Tivo's financial backers want to see steady cash flow over time. Getting rid of the lifetime subscription model actually makes cash flow.


I am rusty on this point, but I thnk technically upfront payments add to operating cash flow, the way the accountants do it.


----------



## uclakidd

duoart said:


> cancel the order and go to you local bestbuy and get a 80GB unit and send in the rebate. ( $219 -$150) and lifetime it. My sister and I are doing so for my parents today.


It won't be the same. If I lifetime the refurb, it will cost me only an additional 150. The 150 I spent on it already goes towards the lifetime.


----------



## dstoffa

HDTiVo said:


> I am rusty on this point, but I thnk technically upfront payments add to operating cash flow, the way the accountants do it.


That may be true now. But in two, four, six years, those one-shot lifetime units generate NOTHING for Tivo. They are a burden on the balance sheet.

Unless Tivo can come up with a plan that guarentees income in the future, their backers are gonna pull out. A lifetime sub sold today has no value to Tivo next fiscal year. That's where the problem is. I wonder how many Tivos are on the street that are lifetime, that have been online since day one... And how much Tivo wishes them struck by lightning.....


----------



## bsvid

Perhaps the Tivo enthusiasts forum isn't the place to raise this question. How many Tivo users are like me? I cannot afford another monthly bill for any amount, not 19.95, 12.95 or 10.95. My cable bill is already almost 50. So how many people are like me and used my tax refund to buy their Tivo w/ lifetime. Maybe customers like me are not profitable.

Look, I love the thing, it's really cool, and convenient, and fun and all that. But I think many people could easily live without it. If my lifetime burns out (hope I'm not jinxing it) I go buy a DVD recorder with a HDD at walmart and program my shows manually. It's not that darn difficult. Tivo thinks they will get more customers and increase their revenue by trying to disguise a price increase. Best of luck, but it ain't gonna work. Of course I'd love to be wrong...


----------



## Narf54321

dstoffa said:


> The bean counters have decided that the lifetime subscriptions become a burden on the company.
> ...
> When first offered, the risk of lifetime subscriptions was on the end user. Now, the risk is on Tivo. They do no want this risk (finacial burden), so they elminated it.


They've also elimated the evangalizing from their longtime supporters.

Lifetime subscriptions was a customer-friendly option. Now that they've eliminated them, they've also eliminated the good-will which we old-timers had for the company (contract lock-ins were not a friendly move, either). Good-will is hard to measure on a spreadsheet.

The mere fact that I've seen people referred in this forum as _consumers_ instead of customers should highlight how Tivo (under Tom Rogers) feels about the folks who've built up their company.


----------



## angra

bsvid said:


> Perhaps the Tivo enthusiasts forum isn't the place to raise this question. How many Tivo users are like me? I cannot afford another monthly bill for any amount, not 19.95, 12.95 or 10.95. My cable bill is already almost 50. So how many people are like me and used my tax refund to buy their Tivo w/ lifetime. Maybe customers like me are not profitable.


but, but, haven't you heard? you can opt-out of monthly charges by trading them for an annual, bi-annual, or tri-annual fee. Doesn't that make it all OK?


----------



## tibruk

lajohn27 said:


> New Bundled Offering, Flexible Pricing and Service Commitments Will Simplify Offering for Consumers
> 
> * The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a
> month or $224 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a
> month or $369 prepaid
> * The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a
> month or $469 prepaid


Sorry if this was covered earlier but am I reading this right? If I get a TiVo and get the two-year service commitment and pay the $369 prepaid, does that mean I won't see a bill till the 25th month and then it will be for $18.95 unless I call to change to the service only plan?

Thanks

Tibruk


----------



## Nfuego

It was said earlier, and i agree...this has made me decide to go out and purchase a new TiVo and buy lifetime service...but, this probably will be my last purchase of a TiVo product, sadly.


----------



## surge

I have both a Series 1 Tivo and a home built Windows Media Center with 4-tuners.
Since I have a Lifetime sub, I use it as a way to record from my STB. It's also a nice backup for the important shows (ie: 24). The Windows Media Center (MCE) is Windows so it does have the occasional need to reboot, but since I don't have anything on it but MCE related software, it seldom happens. It's been rock solid and at times, it is actually recording using all 4 tuners.

The Tivo UI is still superior and since it's a series 1, I don't get the benefits of Music, Pictures, etc. The MCE handles it very nicely and from what I've seen of how Tivo Series 2 handles Music, MCE beats it there.

With MCE, it's a one time cost + upgrades are simple. It's just a PC with the proper equipment. Guides are free, it has season passes, etc.

I've also followed Tivo to see the next big thing from them, but I agree with others on this board. When my Tivo dies, I'll probably not get another Tivo. Yes lifetime was expensive but I've had mine for over 4 years and when I bought it, it was 2 years old.

In that time, I've convinced others to get a Tivo and a lifetime sub as well. Until I did, they were just watching regular TV. Now that they elimated lifetime subs, I will no longer be recommending them. At least with a lifetime sub you could reach a break even point.

This is probably the best thing to happen for Microsoft since they were chasing Tivo. Now a store bought PC running MCE can easily replace Tivo and if the computer breaks you can change out their parts.. Not just the Harddrive like with Tivo.

I think this is a horrible move by Tivo, but they know what they are doing.. ;-)


----------



## That Don Guy

Why do I have this feeling that the real target in all of this is companies that sell replacement hard drives?

Question: how long does a TiVo HD usually last? My Sony's HD lasted about two years, and I had a Replay box (before seeing the TiVo light) that lasted about as long.
Here's the way I crunch the numbers:
1-year prepaid = 12 months x $13/month + $68 for the box
2-year prepaid = 24 months x $13/month + $57 for the box
3-year prepaid = 36 months x $13/month + $1 for the box
An additional advantage to the three-year prepaid plan: presumably, we are protected against a sudden monthly price increase.

One question: currently, which boxes can be sent back for HD repair/replacement, and under what conditions? Perhaps I am being naive in thinking three years in advance is a good idea if I discover two years later that TiVo won't repair/replace it (at least not for free). Then again, if I pay for three months of service, wouldn't TiVo be obligated to supply the hardware for that period?

-- Don


----------



## dstoffa

That Don Guy said:


> Why do I have this feeling that the real target in all of this is companies that sell replacement hard drives?
> 
> Question: how long does a TiVo HD usually last? My Sony's HD lasted about two years, and I had a Replay box (before seeing the TiVo light) that lasted about as long.


No hard drive company is involved. I laughed at that one.

A hard drive in a DVR works 24/7. How long will it last? Depends on make / model / environment / etc.

Once the box's warranty is up, which is no more than one year, you are on your own. Upgrading / replacing the hard drive is trivial for anyone who has done the same for a PC.

You can try to send a busted hard disk back to the vendor for a replacement, if THAT is under warranty (I doubt it). Or you can buy a nice new Seagate with a 5 year warranty, and put that in your Tivo.

There was a post from a Tivo guy elsewhere which read that the CONSUMER is responsible for the hardware, regardless of length of contract, once the box is out of warranty, regardless of how long your contract is... They offer a repalcement for fee program, but this is just another way to remove risk from their balance sheet.

-Doug


----------



## Blurayfan

The only complaint I have about this new pricing is the fact after the contract terms are met the customer is stuck at the contracted rate unless they call and request to change plans. IMO this is underhanded and possibly even illegal. After the term is up the price should go back to the current monthly rate of "service only" in this case $12.95 or $6.95 using MSD.


----------



## Puppy76

A bunch of comments-

Tivos been a hard sell to my friends and people I work with. The vast majority of people either arent that interested in TV, or find Tivos monthly fees to be too expensive. Ive found this to be the case over and over when trying to get people interested in Tivo-they dont get why its so good. Most people I talk to either dont care about a DVR at all, or else get DVRs from their cable company because its cheaper (or use their computer because its cheaper). One person Ive been trying to steer towards Tivo is ONLY interested in Tivo because it WOULD have been CHEAPER in the long run-because you own the hardware and could get a lifetime subscription. Now he has no interest at all (and he was thinking of buying two Tivos to replace his two cable DVRs).

For myself personally, I wouldnt own a Tivo if there hadnt been a lifetime option. I never would have considered it, and the truth is you dont know just how good it is until youve been using it heavily for a few weeks or months. The only reason Id even consider it now is because I ALREADY know how well the software works. Like some others on here, back in the day I had no interest in Tivo when Replay had a built-in lifetime subscription and I didnt realize Tivo had that available-and I skipped Microsofts Ultimate TV because there was no lifetime subscription.

Prior to this announcement, I was 90% sure Id get a Series 3 Tivo, for sure by the time of the switch to digital, and possibly this year, just for the dual tuner and increased disk space (assuming Tivo to Go still works).

Now? Odds are slim that Ill get one. Even prior to this announcement I was very interested in Microsofts Windows Media Center Edition. A PC running that has a lot of advantages over Tivo. Dual tuners (available now). More powerful hardware that can transfer shows off faster, encode media for other formats USING the DVR, etc. More easily expandable hard drive space. The ability to watch shows in another room using an X-Box 360 or DVD player. And now, this fall Id expect a decent PC running VISTA with dual HD/analog tuners to end up cheaper than a S3 Tivo.
Now I have no idea if Windows MCE is good enough, but it looks decent to me from what Ive seen, and the Vista equivalent will be better.

Then too, I have to askexactly what is Tivo giving us for the subscription price? I like that they work out bugs, but 99% of the new features that have been added have been worthless to me (and are all things you can do better on a PC, and for free). Youre REALLY paying for guide datahow does that cost $12.95 (or more) a month? How can they seriously claim it costs that much to download guide data over the internet to a lifetime subscriber (who wont break even until the second or third year, and whos hardware will probably die within a few years of that regardless).

The only feature Tivos added in the last year that I care about is the ability to truncate parts of shows, rather than just skipping the entire show-except thats something that obviously should have been a feature from the beginning. My VCR from 2000 did that, so Im baffled as to why Tivo took so long. (Tivo to Go is great, but I dont count that as I knew it was coming before I bought my Tivo, and wouldnt have purchased it otherwise-and like I said, a Microsoft solution would do it better as it can transfer content faster).

I think Tivos made some mistakes here-mostly in not having a lifetime subscription available. Theyre facing stiff competition from two sides (cable companies and PCs), and now may end up being the most expensive of the three options. Assuming MCE isnt as good as Tivo now (which I dont actually know), just give it another iteration or three, and it will be.
The new option to get free hardware with a higher subscription cost is good (aside from not automatically lowering that cost at the end of the contract period). But thats mostly going to appeal to people that arent that interested in DVRs to begin with, or who will be more inclined to just get one from their cable company. Meanwhile theyve shunned the very users who are most interested in their service by jacking up prices.

Maybe itll work out, but I dont think this is as rosy a situation as is being presented.

Ive also found the simultaneous comments from Tivo people that we havent raised the price and enjoy your lifetime because it was a great deal equally frightening and hilarious!

At any rate, I'll still look at S3, because I LOVE my S2 Tivo. But a Vista media center PC has become what I'm assuming I'll buy, either this fall or within a few years.


----------



## 2njl

bsvid said:


> I activated my lifetime box just this past saturday, a few days after the Humax I ordered from a major online retailer arrived at my door. I had been studying Tivo for months prior to making my decision. I have to say, the thought of a monthly bill in addition to my standard time warner bill was a reason to forgo it. Don't you understand Tivo, I took the plunge because the lifetime was an option. I never would have been interested in Tivo at all otherwise, my cable company offers a DVR for 4.95 a month and everyone I know has it, not Tivo.


I feel the same way. I'm a fairly new TiVo user/owner. On the one hand I can see how they lose money on a customer like me (bought a refurbished 40hr unit direct from TiVo, swapped out the drive for a much bigger one, and immediately activated lifetime service). So they only got about $380 out of me ($50 for the wireless adapter, $300 for service, $30 for the unit). I did this figuring it was cheaper than building a MythTV box, and probably more user friendly.

Had lifetime service not have been an option, I probably would have looked into other options or bought a used lifetime service unit via ebay. Had lifetime service been a bit more money, it wouldn't have mattered. I just didn't want another recurring (forever) bill.

Assuming they did lose money on me, I guess they're actually better off without my kind of customer....but how about bringing back lifetime and just raising the price for it a bit?


----------



## Ereth

I have a question about this comment from TiVoOpsMgr:


TiVoOpsMgr said:


> No need to call -- just use Manage My Account (http://www.tivo.com/manage/), and verify that you have a Series1 unit with Product Lifetime dated before January 20, 2000.


I went to Manage My Account. I have two TiVos with Product Lifetime but I cannot find any dates whatsoever. One of them was bought last year, so I know it doesn't qualify, but I honestly do not remember when I bought my first Series 1. Probably not before January 20, 2000, if I had to wager (given my first post here was in June of 2000), but I was curious how I was to find that information under Manage My Account?


----------



## aindik

If I have a lifetime box, and I decide to decommission it and not sell it, and I never tell TiVo that I've unplugged it, I'm still eligible for the MSD on my other units, right? The lifetime box doesn't have to make a daily call, right?

In that case, I'm eligible for the MSD forever - for long after I have any actual use for my lifetime box. That means, under the current plan, I can get an 80 hour DVR for $224 next week, and then begin paying $6.95 a month for it a year from now (assuming I remember to make a phone call or change something on tivo.com - that's what reminders in Outlook are for). Total three year cost - $390.80. Add a fourth year, and it's $474.20. Assuming that the box's "lifetime" is four years, that's as if I paid $175.20 for the box and $299 for lifetime, except I have to/get to (depending on your perspective - some people might actually like to keep their money longer) pay monthly for months 13 through 48 (and, I have to keep paying past month 48). 

Discounted to present value, assuming a 4.5% annual discount rate, the price is about $450. IOW, pay $224 now, and put $226 in an account earning 4.5% annual, compounded monthly. Beginning at month 13, start automatically debiting that account 6.95. At the end of 48 months, you'll have about $1 left. 

So, $450 now gets you an 80 hour box and four years of service, if you already have a box with lifetime.


----------



## Shawn95GT

Ereth said:


> I have a question about this comment from TiVoOpsMgr:
> 
> I went to Manage My Account. I have two TiVos with Product Lifetime but I cannot find any dates whatsoever. One of them was bought last year, so I know it doesn't qualify, but I honestly do not remember when I bought my first Series 1. Probably not before January 20, 2000, if I had to wager (given my first post here was in June of 2000), but I was curious how I was to find that information under Manage My Account?


Go to 'name your DVR' and it'll show the activation date(s).

I just ordered one of the 40hr refurbs and will LT sub it. It'll ship tomorrow.


----------



## davezatz

aindik said:


> If I have a lifetime box, and I decide to decommission it and not sell it, and I never tell TiVo that I've unplugged it, I'm still eligible for the MSD on my other units, right? The lifetime box doesn't have to make a daily call, right?


I think it has to call every few months or TiVo assumes you threw it away or something. There was a recent thread about this. I think it's every 4 months or so...


----------



## Ereth

Shawn95GT said:


> Go to 'name your DVR' and it'll show the activation date(s)


Thank you. I didn't see that. Now I have confirmed that mine was activated June 5, 2000. I appreciate the quick response!


----------



## greg_burns

Shawn95GT said:


> I just ordered one of the 40hr refurbs and will LT sub it. It'll ship tomorrow.


Did you do the free shipping? Why is yours shipping tomorrow and I'm still waiting two weeks with nothing? 

Edit: just went back through the order process and see they do offer 1-day shipping. Still, WTF?


----------



## Ereth

davezatz said:


> I think it has to call every few months or TiVo assumes you threw it away or something. There was a recent thread about this. I think it's every 4 months or so...


Uh oh. I have one with a dead modem. It's been set aside until I can fix it. I suspect it has been longer than 4 months. In fact, I'd bet on it. It's not going to work when I finally get it hooked back up?


----------



## Shawn95GT

greg_burns said:


> Did you do the free shipping? Why is yours shipping tomorrow and I'm still waiting two weeks with nothing?


No, I went for the two day shipping so I'd get it before the cut off. I called with my order number and the rep said it'll bill/ship tomorrow.


----------



## greg_burns

Shawn95GT said:


> No, I went for the two day shipping so I'd get it before the cut off. I called with my order number and the rep said it'll bill/ship tomorrow.


Time to pick up the phone. What number did you dial?

Thanks

800-292-9104


----------



## Shawn95GT

greg_burns said:


> Time to pick up the phone. What number did you dial?
> 
> Thanks


At the end of my e-mail confirming my order:

- If you have any questions please call 800-292-9104.

It immediately put me on hold and a few minutes later the nice lady gave me the good news. Good luck!


----------



## aindik

Ereth said:


> Uh oh. I have one with a dead modem. It's been set aside until I can fix it. I suspect it has been longer than 4 months. In fact, I'd bet on it. It's not going to work when I finally get it hooked back up?


I'm in a similar situation. I have an S2 box with lifetime that a friend gave me, that simply died (won't boot past "starting up") after attempting to install 7.x over 4.x (x because I don't remember) after HE hadn't used it in over a year. That was at least 8 months ago. I suspect one or both of the hard drives are dead. I haven't gotten around to fixing it. Does that mean the "lifetime" is gone? Or just that, until I plug it in, I wouldn't be eligible for the MSD if that one were my only unit? (Luckiy, it's not my only unit, so that last part is a hypothetical).


----------



## Sirshagg

Yes, I'm disappointed about the lifetime going away, but if they have to do it in order to get, or stay, profitable then so be it. After all what good is a liftime box going to be if Tivo goes under.


----------



## steveliv

TiVoPony said:


> Hey uclakid,
> 
> You ordered a box before this announcement, expecting to buy lifetime when it arrives. That shouldn't be a problem, and if it is, just let either Stephen or me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pony


both you and stephen haven't done us wrong before, but i will hold you to this statement...i ordered a box this morning intending to buy a lifetime sub, and not an hour later i visited slashdot and got the news on the new Tivo pricing...

steven

p.s. plus i am jumping ship from ReplayTV  i had Tivo awhile ago, and it feels good to be home again


----------



## dswallow

steveliv said:


> both you and stephen haven't done us wrong before, but i will hold you to this statement...i ordered a box this morning intending to buy a lifetime sub, and not an hour later i visited slashdot and got the news on the new Tivo pricing...


Did you order before the announcement, or just before you found out about the announcement?


----------



## steveliv

dswallow said:


> Did you order before the announcement, or just before you found out about the announcement?


i ordered this morning, i'm not sure when the announcement occurred, but i didn't know about it when i ordered...

steven


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## greg_burns

dswallow said:


> Did you order before the announcement, or just before you found out about the announcement?


Shouldn't matter. The order details form makes no mention of this. It just says you have to activate by 3/31. And it mentions upgrading to lifetime. If they aren't going to honor this, they need to take that down NOW!

Good news (for me), my order is with FedEx already. Scheduled delivery is Saturday! :up:


----------



## greg_burns

steveliv said:


> both you and stephen haven't done us wrong before, but i will hold you to this statement...i ordered a box this morning intending to buy a lifetime sub, and not an hour later i visited slashdot and got the news on the new Tivo pricing...


I wouldn't chance it. Call that number above and see about changing your shipping method...


----------



## SnakeEyes

I just sold two TiVo's, well I will on Wednesday, to people who have been hesitant to buy TiVo but thought it was great they didn't have to pay anything up front.


----------



## tazzftw

steveliv said:


> both you and stephen haven't done us wrong before, but i will hold you to this statement...i ordered a box this morning intending to buy a lifetime sub, and not an hour later i visited slashdot and got the news on the new Tivo pricing...
> 
> steven
> 
> p.s. plus i am jumping ship from ReplayTV  i had Tivo awhile ago, and it feels good to be home again


Question...... what if I buy a box now, with intent for lifetime? Will it be honored during this 30 day grace period? Edit: this was for TivoPony, but the quote wasn't saved.


----------



## samo

I read all the posts from TiVoOpsManager and TiVoPony in this thread (thank you guys) and I have to admit that new pricing plan make much more sense to me than it did initially. The only reservation I have is an absence of the monthly without commitment plan. People generally have a hard time to commit to something they don't know much about. It is easy with cell phones or satellite/cable/internet service - people have general idea what they are getting- but since most new customers have no idea WHY they should get TiVo in a first place, it maybe a hard sell. Another concern is amount of monthly fee. If I recall it right, Tivo did have limited trial several years ago with one of the cable companies - it was free TiVo with $20/month and it never took off. With satellite and cable companies offering free hardware with $5 to $10 a month fees it may be hard to justify single tuner TiVo vs dual tuner competition.
But on a positive side of things, I believe that 1 year prepay plan is an excellent idea. If I had to buy my first TiVo today - that would be a plan I would select even if lifetime was available as an option (assuming of course that it was my first TiVo and I didn't know much about it). This plan limits my risk to just little over $200 and if I don't like what I got - no big loss. In a same time it lets me use the unit for a whole year so I don't have to make a rush decision to keep it or not. TiVo hardly makes any money on 1 year prepay plan, but we all know that after a year of use most users will re-subscribe to the service. All that remains is an aggressive advertisement of "FREE with commitment "real" TiVo instead of cable or satellite clone".


----------



## greg_burns

tazzftw said:


> Question...... what if I buy a box now, with intent for lifetime? Will it be honored during this 30 day grace period? Edit: this was for TivoPony, but the quote wasn't saved.


I would just pay for the faster shipping method. When you get to the order form part you can choose between 1-day,2-day, or Ground (4-6 bus. days).


----------



## ZeoTiVo

aindik said:


> I'm in a similar situation. I have an S2 box with lifetime that a friend gave me, that simply died (won't boot past "starting up") after attempting to install 7.x over 4.x (x because I don't remember) after HE hadn't used it in over a year. That was at least 8 months ago. I suspect one or both of the hard drives are dead. I haven't gotten around to fixing it. Does that mean the "lifetime" is gone? Or just that, until I plug it in, I wouldn't be eligible for the MSD if that one were my only unit? (Luckiy, it's not my only unit, so that last part is a hypothetical).


The lifetime is good on the box. never goes away.
But for the lifetime TiVo to count as the one qualifying you for MSD it must connect at least every 30 days (I think it is 30).


----------



## joshguy875

I have a few questions since I'm thinking about taking advantage:

Will the Tivo be obsolete come 2009 when HDTV is mandated to become prevalent? How does HDTV fit in? Will I need a converter box to use my Tivo w/lifetime sub?

Are the factory reconditioned models any less reliable than the new ones? I was thinking of getting a 40hr model, waiting a year for the warranty to expire and then opening it up and backing up the harddrive and upgrading then. Is that a good way to go about it?

If I open it up before then, will they know? Is there a seal that I will have to rip? I'd hate to void the warranty on something that cost me $300.

Thanks


----------



## dylanemcgregor

davezatz said:


> I think it has to call every few months or TiVo assumes you threw it away or something. There was a recent thread about this. I think it's every 4 months or so...


I think it is supposed to be every 4 months, but I didn't have my S1 with lifetime hooked up to a phone line for about 6 months, and there was no change to the MSD over that period.


----------



## davezatz

> Will the Tivo be obsolete come 2009 when HDTV is mandated to become prevalent? How does HDTV fit in? Will I need a converter box to use my Tivo w/lifetime sub?


As long as a cable box can output analog signals, the TiVo can use it. It may look like crap on a large HD set, or it may not... depends on the set and on you. (Obviously the current SA TiVo's cannot input or output HD though 480P DVDs are covered.) I tried my 140HR on a 30" HDTV for awhile it was decent enough with the TV's 16:9 stretch. We'd flip off of the TiVo input to real live TV for Lost and football in HD. It's not as big a deal now when not all channels and programming are HD, but everyone is migrating, the clock is ticking...

I wouldn't reccomend a long term commitment on a single tuner standard def box to anyone I know at this point... Not to mention it's so much nicer to have one box that decodes the signal and performs DVR functions while changing channels at a decent clip. I'm interested in the S3 with CableCARD(s) or the Comcast TiVo. And if they don't get here before my patience runs out, I'll give the Moto 6412 with stock software another try.


----------



## joshguy875

But if I only wanted to use a standard TV with the Tivo, I wouldn't eventually need a box to convert the HD to standard?


----------



## tazzftw

Well after looking over the full plan, the new plan isn't that bad. It's actually quite good. The only downfall is the lifetime (which apparently EVERYONE on here has).


----------



## davezatz

joshguy875 said:


> But if I only wanted to use a standard TV with the Tivo, I wouldn't eventually need a box to convert the HD to standard?


Well the confusion is this... 2009 the airwaves must convert to these digital signals. So if your TiVo used an antenna and a built-in tuner it would stop working (the current tuner doesn't cover the new spectrum and methods). Also it's worth mentioning HD and digital are two seperate ideas: HD is the picture resolution, whereas digital is the transmission method.

If you use a cable box now or in three years, most likely it will include analog outputs like Svideo or RCA jacks so you can feed your TiVo something it understands and then pass it to your TV. So you'd most likely be fine.



tazzftw said:


> The only downfall is the lifetime (which apparently EVERYONE on here has).


I've owned 6 TiVos (2 Replays, a few HTPCs, a Moto 6412, etc) over the years and none have had Lifetime. I swap gadgets way too frequently for that.


----------



## greg_burns

davezatz said:


> Well the confusion is this... 2009 the airwaves must convert to these digital signals. So if your TiVo used an antenna and a built-in tuner it would stop working (the current tuner doesn't cover the new spectrum and methods). Also it's worth mentioning HD and digital are two seperate ideas: HD is the picture resolution, whereas digital is the transmission method.
> 
> If you use a cable box now or in three years, most likely it will include analog outputs like Svideo or RCA jacks so you can feed your TiVo something it understands and then pass it to your TV. So you'd most likely be fine.


All true, but for the <1% using only rabbit ears it isn't going to work (anymore).

Edit: I guess you covered that already. Whoops.


----------



## Shawn95GT

joshguy875 said:


> But if I only wanted to use a standard TV with the Tivo, I wouldn't eventually need a box to convert the HD to standard?


Just add ATSC tuner and you're good to go so long as the IR blaster will control it. My two current Tivos are both being fed by my ex-Voom receivers to record HD downconverted material. It looks pretty good all things concidered.


----------



## Toeside

Thanks to Stephen and Pony for answering my MSD question last night. 

I now patiently (mostly, anyway) waiting for pricing information on the S3 model.


----------



## TechDreamer

Lifetime service option and multiple box discount are going away? Everything requires a yearly commitment and Tivo raised prices? How is any of this good? Tivo says that the new service options tested well, but for how long? I don't see how a restrictive and confusing pricing scheme will help Tivo in the long run. Tivo had problems getting customers when they offered GOOD deals.


----------



## classicsat

dgh said:


> The 2nd paragraph contradicts the first. If you haven't raised the prices then what am I celebrating?


Just the further sale of Lifetime is going away.

Current Lifetime subbed boxes will continue to work as they always have (barring hardware failure). You are celebrating TiVo Inc not changing that.


----------



## sgndave

davezatz said:


> Well the confusion is this... 2009 the airwaves must convert to these digital signals. So if your TiVo used an antenna and a built-in tuner it would stop working (the current tuner doesn't cover the new spectrum and methods). Also it's worth mentioning HD and digital are two seperate ideas: HD is the picture resolution, whereas digital is the transmission method.


Close. Digital TV uses the same spectrum as analog TV, so it's not a new spectrum, but the format is different. You're correct on HD vs. digital, but I would add the fact that HD is broadcast only via digital. In other words, not all digital is in HD, but all HD is broadcast in digital format. I know that you know that, this is just more details for others who may not be familiar with it.


----------



## classicsat

MikeMar said:


> TivoPony - If I add another tivo box to my account that is already active (girlfriends) will we get the mutli discount (i have a lifetime and a multi discount box already) or will the 3rd tivo have to pay 12.95?


Except for Lifetime no longer being sold, the rules are the same as before for DVRs you outright purchased "retail" or second hand, so yes.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

rainwater said:


> I get digital cable + moxi dvr from Charter for only $15 over extended analog cable.


...but that's my point. $15 is not "a few". We're you agreeing with me


----------



## dgh

classicsat said:


> Just the further sale of Lifetime is going away.
> 
> Current Lifetime subbed boxes will continue to work as they always have (barring hardware failure). You are celebrating TiVo Inc not changing that.


Was that sarcasm?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVoPony said:


> .... Returning the equipment is not an option - you own it. You're not renting a cable box, you've purchased the DVR.
> 
> Pony


That's good news to me. I don't like the way the cable companies recycle their boxes. I like to own my equipment.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Toeside said:


> ....
> I now patiently (mostly, anyway) waiting for pricing information on the S3 model.


I'm waiting, but not patiently


----------



## steveliv

did we get a definative answer on whether there is an actual grace period to buy a lifetime sub if you purchased the tivo before the 15th, or is it register by the 15th or else?

steven


----------



## TiVoPony

TechDreamer said:


> Lifetime service option and multiple box discount are going away? Everything requires a yearly commitment and Tivo raised prices? How is any of this good? Tivo says that the new service options tested well, but for how long? I don't see how a restrictive and confusing pricing scheme will help Tivo in the long run. Tivo had problems getting customers when they offered GOOD deals.


* New Lifetime Service Activations - Yes, they're going away. Get yours now before they're gone.

* Multi-Service Discount - Nope, it's still there. Same as before.

* Yearly Commitment - Same as before for $12.95 subs. Some new options for bundled packages.

* Raised Prices - Nope. You can buy your own box and still get the same deal as before. $12.95/mo with a one year commit. No change.

You're only right 25% of the time. 

Nothing restrictive about it. There are more options that before.

Confusing? Not really. There have been lots of questions about how this impacts existing programs/discounts, but the pricing going forward is pretty simple:

1. Already have a box? You can subscribe for $12.95/mo, just as before. There's no lifetime, but there'll be pre-pay plans for 1, 2, and 3 years.

2. Have us send you a free box and the service fee is higher, starting at $16.95/mo for three years. There are one and two year options as well, and you can pre-pay on these plans if you want an even better deal.

Not really that difficult.

Pony


----------



## classicsat

russellk said:


> Comcast charges their box for $10 a month. It is a HD Box + DVR in one. It is not as good as Tivo but it's Dual HD tuner box, DVR function, and onDemand (a lots of free programming.. and they have good ones, too.)
> 
> Tivo isn't selling programming. They are just letting the users download a program guide. How can the program guide cost $17 to $20 a month? Thats more than the TV Guide or any news paper. I mean, Yahoo gives it out for free.


The difference is is that Comcast does sell programming, and that is where their bread and butter is, so they can rent you the DVR+service for $10.

Yes, TiVo isn't selling you programming (yet), they are selling you a solution, which is their primary buinsess, hence they have to make most of their revenue from the service subs. The new increased prices, are only if you want a no money down box, as they are what pay for the hardware.


----------



## classicsat

Shag2580 said:


> Now I can't see spending an nearly $200+ per year on "service" for a Tivo. My cable provider supplies cheaper boxes (which are only going to get better, and may even offer Tivo software), and I can build a MCE PC myself, or go to Best Buy to by an HP MCE PC for $800 (no subscription fees).


You don't have to.
You can choose to, and not have to outright "purchase" the hardware. You can prepay and pay less.
You can buy a DVR and buy normal montly service for it.



> If they really needed some cash, then incease the fee required for lifetime subscription. I'd easily spend $800 on my Tivo unit, as long as I didn't have to keep paying "installments" every year afterwards. Now you want me to spend $200+ per year? As a consumer that doesn't work out for me. I would have paid $1400 for my current Tivo.


Market resarch provvd that Lifetime at that price was sour. Now they could have done market research to come up with a price palatable to both them and customers, but I find the new plans palatable.


> How about doing simple things, like making Tivo hardware and software more user friendly? The hardware and software options are what will force me to upgrade my unit, not the service.


Words are cheap. Engineers are not.
They have aplatform that essentially works.


> That was one of the reasons I was looking to buying a new unit. I was tired of having to keep around a phone line. But where the hell is a 802.11g Tivo? My laptop is 3 years old and can do wireless. I can't even find ethernet. You STILL have to buy an adapter? Come on...


Having the customer go purchase an adapter after the fact was their choice to reduce the hardware cost of the box.
Wireless is still too expensive to include. Ethernet is not so much, and will show up in the S3, and if we are lucky, an new revision of the S2.



> I would have purchased a new Tivo long ago if I could have tied it into my home network, even via ethernet cable. Tivo has simply failed to give me a reason to buy and new box, and now that I finally think the series 3 may be a reason, they price it right out of interest.


Ethernet adapters are rather cheap to buy after the fact, especially if you simply want it for just guide updates (which means you can use an older 1.1 adater)



> If hardware development cost is the issue, then how about allowing us Tivo fans to buy the software directly and install it on our own (approved) hardware?


That would cost you, the customer, even more.
TiVo wants tight control on the hardware, both for software stability and security.


----------



## Dan203

TiVoPony said:


> * Raised Prices - Nope. You can buy your own box and still get the same deal as before. $12.95/mo with a one year commit. No change.


Will TiVo and tivo.com only be selling bundles? Or will they continue to sell the boxes independently to be used with standard monthly service? The only reason I ask is because finding a TiVo in stock at a retail location has historically been hit and miss.

Dan


----------



## lordargent

HannahWCU said:


> Just curious, but for those of you that say they are not going to buy another Tivo (for whatever reason), what DVR are you going to get?


I could cancel my HD cable service and go back to standard. And continue using my lifetime sub series 2.

Then take the money I would have put into HD cable service, and give it to netflix instead to boost the number of DVDs that I can have out at once. (it's $12 a month to go from 3 out to 5 out). And I'll watch all of my shows _after_ they come out on DVD, 100% commercial free and with no annoying gaps (I'm looking at you Lost).

What still remains to be seen is what the pricing on the series 3 will be. If the pricing on that is reasonable enough, then not having lifetime might not sting so much.

/I hate continual/long term fees. That's why I paid off my mortgage.

/Had $1000 set aside for a series 3 hardware and lifetime. Now without lifetime sub, I'll have to really reconsider.



Lampei said:


> Just wanted to confirm one thing
> 
> If we have a lifetime gift card, we *will* be able to use it on the Series 3 when it comes out, correct?





TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Correct.


Anyone got a gift card sitting around that they want to get rid of?


----------



## classicsat

rainwater said:


> Show me how it is cheaper?


Nobody said it is cheaper over all.
One just doesn't need to have $220 or whatever the shelf price is to have TiVo, so it is cheaper at the instant. Long term it costs higher or lower, depending on the option. Prepay is the best deal I think.

And don't forget, except for Lifetime, the rest of the existing options aren't going anywhere.


----------



## mtmra70

I'm confused about the yearly contract for the 'service only'. Is it 1 year then you go month-to-month? Or does it put you into another contract for a year?

Obviously TiVo's notification of this was poor since I was unaware you switched to a contract method 1 year ago.


----------



## peteypete

Tivo can finance the subsidized boxes with the cash from all the people rushing now to get lifetime now!!


----------



## tazzftw

Once the committment is up, you can switch to a regular 12.95 plan. So consider the bundled option as a way to pay for the box slowly for a year.


----------



## tazzftw

Interesting to note: the prepaid 3-year costs $469. Over 36 months, that averages to about $13.03 a month. That means you're payng 8 cents a month for the actual box, or $2.88 overall. Basically, you're getting the box for free. And the service will transfer over to a S3.

Just somethng of interest.


----------



## AllAboutJeeps

I guess I will put my $0.02 in here in case someone at TiVo comes here looking for opinions.

I am bummed to here that the lifetime is going away, but I like that the MSD is still the same. I like paying once and forgetting about it. I absolutely hate contracts/service agreements. It seems as though TiVo is following the business model of cell phone companies, and I despise cell phone companies!

The changes will make me less likely to 'preach' the message of TiVo for several reasons:
1. It is too complicated for me to try and explain how the money works (Sorry TiVo guy who claims otherwise).
2. I don't like that you have to call to have your rate changed at the end of the your service agreement. This is a sleazy trick that stupid telemarketers and credit card companies play. While it 'may' look good in the books, it doesn't sit well with me. TiVo should adjust the service fee at the end automatically. Imagine the pleasent surprise of the average 'consumer' when they notice the charge for thier TiVo dropped.
3. Every person I have indirectly 'sold' a TiVo to (at least 5-6 people over 3 years) had problems with thier rebates. Screwing people over rebates is just wrong.
4. All in all TiVo is losing my confidence in thier handling of the customers. I used to be able to tell people, don't worry, TiVo loves it's customers and will take care of you. Unfortunately this trend has been in the works for a while, and it will take quite a bit to change my feelings.

I wish you the best TiVo, but you won't get any 'new' money from me. While I will keep paying my $6.95 MSD for my 2nd TiVo till it dies, when it comes time to replace TiVo, it will prob be with Windows MCE.

...danny


----------



## classicsat

raubin said:


> Well, truth be told, TiVo IS trying to make the bring your own box deal go away - so I think the statement, although technically true, is not an accurate reflection of TiVo's plans. In short order, you will not be able to buy the box and you will ont be able to pay for service monthly - at least according to the conference call yesterday and to this AP story:


Where do you read TiVo is giving customers ONLY the bundle option?

The way I read that, TiVo is initially offer bundles *as an option* from their online store, in addition to offering current subscription options (except Lifetime), and will later on offer the bundles at B&M stores and other online sellers later, as*options*.


----------



## classicsat

mearlus said:


> This quote is the simplist explination I have seen.  .


Thanks. I knew it all boiled down to service+lease all along since word came out last fall or so.


> I guess the only suggestion I'd have for TivoPony and/or TivoOpsMgr is to come up with some sheet that explains everything out right. Explains the differences between Service and Service+Hardware for XYZ type pricing structures.


I do have a spreadsheet I am working on.


> Really the only sad thing I see about this is Lifetime disappearing, which we all knew was too good to last. Even if Tivo made some money on it, in the long run they made very little.


TiVo lost money on it, which is why they are dropping it.

About half this thread is people moaning about it.



> We can buy new Tivo's+Service for a larger monthly fee or a upfront fee to then get the $12.95/month pricing after the contract term.
> 
> 
> 
> This tells me instead of fighting with Rebate problems Tivo is eliminating a large upfront cost to the consumer by allowing them to 'lease' the hardware and tacking that fee onto the service cost.
> 
> What is so wrong with that?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO nothing really. Long term it will cost more for a bundled monly contract, but one can buy a Prepaid bundle and basically save compared to a monthly bundle or a normal monthly service +AR DVR purchase. 1 yr prepaid is the same as the current retail deal for the 80 Hr, AFAIK. 3yr prepaid is only $2.80 more that 3 years of a service only sub.
> 
> People are just peeved that Lifetime is going away as a sub option.
Click to expand...


----------



## megazone

vasilemj said:


> Is TiVo trying to push us to their competitors....cough ReplayTV...cough LG LRM-519?


ReplayTV is out of the hardware business. Right now they have no products at all, and plan to release a PC-based software DVR bundled with Hauppage cards at some point. Have you played with the LG? I have. No sale, even with the switch to free data.


----------



## classicsat

JacksTiVo said:


> It is interesting to read all of the posts concerning the impact of the new pricing structure.
> 
> Let's look at the numbers on the lifetime cost of my Series 1  30 hour Sony (SVR-2000) to date.
> I bought it in Nov. 2001 or 52 months ago (4-1/3 years).
> 
> SVR-2000 cost - $424 including tax.
> Lifetime TIVO Subscript. - $250
> March 2005 HD upgrade
> to a 200hr (Ebay kit) - $140 (including shipping)
> 
> Total cost to date - $814
> 
> Average cost per month to date: $814/52 = $15.65 per month


Cost to you, yes, but TiVo only made $250 from you, and that is what counts. The rest went to Sony and whomever you bought the HDD from.

You broke even for the TiVo service long ago.



> Now you can get a 80 hour Series 2 for 36 months for at either $16.9 per month or $469 prepaid (average $13/month).
> 
> In other words, you can get an 80 hour Series 2 with all the networking options & features for the same price as I paid for a Series 1 over 4 years ago.


Plus 3 years service, or buy 3 years service and get a free DVR.

This is what TiVo, IMO, is offering as a replacement for Lifetime.


----------



## danieljanderson

megazone said:


> ReplayTV is out of the hardware business. Right now they have no products at all, and plan to release a PC-based software DVR bundled with Hauppage cards at some point. Have you played with the LG? I have. No sale, even with the switch to free data.


I agree about the LG unit. It leaves a LOT to be desired.

I think this will prove to be a very positive, pivotal moment for TiVo. I think the S3 will prove extremely popular, the Comcast unit will take off, and we will see other Cable Co's come onboard. (I'm sure Comcast will sell off an area at some point and another company will take over those motorola/TiVo units)

I'm sure we will never get these numbers, but I'd like to know what percentage of new subs this past year were month-to-month vs. Lifetime.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

With lifetime going away, I will only be buy one one HD TiVo then, if that. I had been planning on two. I now have to seriously consider downgrading (quality-wise) to just whatever Comcast offers. If that ends up was TiVo software, maybe it won't be too much of a downgrade.

Although maybe I can hope for a one-time lifetime transfer to S3? Or one-timme S3 lifetime for those with several lifetimes already?


----------



## megazone

rainwater said:


> Show me how it is cheaper? Like I said before, there is only one case now where you can get a box for the same price as the current offer (1 year service + change service after the 12 months) excluding any MSD. In all other cases, the price has gone up. There's no arguing about that. I guess its conveniant to act as though the $12.95 plan is the same without taking into account the increased cost of the box itself. But I am not buying into that.


I'll round a bit just to make this easier. I don't think anyone is arguing that any of the current options are less expensive than *lifetime*. They're not, that's simple. Less money up front, but over time lifetime was by far the best value. (Too good to last.)

Existing 80-hour box after rebate - $70. Lifetime - $300. Total: $370. Forever - great value. Too good, and going away.

How about the prepaid plans?
12 x $12.95 = $155.40 + $70 = $225.40 vs $224 - so one year is slightly cheaper.
24 x $12.95 = $310.80 + $70 = $380.80 vs $369 - so two years are cheaper
36 x $12.95 = $466.20 + $70 = $536.20 vs $469 - so three years is much cheaper

The monthly plans aren't as good.
12 x $19.95 = $239.40 - not too much more than paying up front, and for someone who can't swing the cash up front, really not a bad way to 'finance' the purchase.
24 x $18.95 = $454.80 - I couldn't recommend this, you're better off paying $19.95 a month for a year, then dropping down to $12.95 for the second year for a total of $394.80
36 x $16.95 = $610.20 - I wouldn't recommend this either, pay the $19.95 for a year, then $12.95 for two for $550.20.

So the second two plans cost $60 more than the one year at $19.95 and then $12.95/month, or $74 more than prices today.

But today's prices factor in the rebate, which isn't a permanent feature. So you could also look at the new plans as eliminating the rebate and dropping the hardware cost.

The prepaid plans aren't bad - one year is like getting a free box for $18.67/month, two years is like a free box and $15.38/month, and three years is like a free box and $13.03/month.

Of the new deals, the best monthly plan is one year commitment, and the best prepaid plan is the three year commitment - though any of the prepaid plans is better than today's pricing, by a little or a lot.

And this is all based on the $12.95 rate not going up in three years. Note that Stephen also said there would be 1, 2, and 3 year pre-paid plans for service-only options which would likely drop the costs on those below the $12.95/month level.


----------



## DPF

Same here. Looks like I won't be getting a Series3. Oh well. I just cant stomach the idea of the open ended fees. Nor can the wife. They could have jacked the cost of lifetime substantially and I'd still have gone that route versus not offering at all.

Without that option, an S3 just won't be in the cards. That sucks.

-DPF


----------



## classicsat

Stormspace said:


> Has anyone heard if the new pricing schemes will apply to the Series 3?
> 
> 
> 
> They might have a pricing plan with the same idea, but different price points to account fot the cost of the S3 box, and perhaps a different service cost.
> 
> 
> 
> If they do my 12.95 box will drop to 6.95 and I'll only be paying the difference between that and the new price for the Series 3.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that way
> 
> 
> 
> Also, on the Series 3, does it come with a generic cable card capable of receiving analog cable signals? Or will I have to rent a Cable Card from my provider in addition to the TiVo monthly fee?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It will have a built in analog tuner (two actually). No card is required to use it.
> 
> The cable card is only so that its internal digital tuners can decode digital pay cable channels. (sorry USDTV viewers) You will need to get one or two to get encrypted digital channels.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## classicsat

JacksTiVo said:


> No multiple service discount on these new units after the plan period ends,as I understand it.
> 
> Jack


Yes there is. Once the "plan" is up, you can sub it as a second DVR for 6.95 yourself.


----------



## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> Let's say I somehow acquire *secondhand* an unused and unsubed S2. I call TiVo and say I want to sign up. I want to pay $299 today for Lifetime.
> 
> At TiVo's monthly cost of subscriber services ($2.25 in FY06, down from $2.99 in FY05) that $299 lasts TiVo 132 months (11 years!!!!) before they lose money on me, not counting the value to them of holding my money! AND not counting any other revenues TiVo might get from other sources because they have one more box subed in their universe.
> 
> How is this a bad deal or unprofitable for TiVo? I can't figure it out.


You seriously can't figure it out? REALLY?!

They already spent the SAC on selling the box in the first place, to whomever sold it to you - or originally acquired it. So that box is in the red as far as TiVo is concerned. That debt doesn't vanish just because the box changes hands. This scenario is 100% identical to buying the box from TiVo and activating lifetime on it, financially, as far as TiVo is concerned. That should be obvious.

If you want a different example, say someone buys the box and subs it monthly for 2 years, then you buy it from them and put lifetime on it. NOW it is a different story, because TiVo, between their two years and your lifetime, has about the equivalent of 4 years of subscription fees on the box.

But I'd expect the number of units being subbed lifetime well into their service lives is not very high at all, so that's a corner case.


----------



## megazone

TiVoPony said:


> From the press release:
> "As is the case with subscribing to the TiVo service today, an early cancellation fee will apply if service is terminated prior to the end of the chosen period."


Can you transfer the commitment to someone else? All TiVo cares about is churn and revenue, right? So I have a 3 year $16.95 commitment and have to go overseas after one year, can I transfer the box to someone else who continues to pay? I know I can play games and just give them the box and my login and they can pretend to be me, but can it be done openly, putting it in their name?


----------



## megazone

Narf54321 said:


> Now that they've eliminated them, they've also eliminated the good-will which we old-timers had for the company


Speak for yourself.


----------



## ChuckyBox

megazone said:


> Can you transfer the commitment to someone else? All TiVo cares about is churn and revenue, right? So I have a 3 year $16.95 commitment and have to go overseas after one year, can I transfer the box to someone else who continues to pay? I know I can play games and just give them the box and my login and they can pretend to be me, but can it be done openly, putting it in their name?


The FAQ says no, you may not do this.


----------



## megazone

sgndave said:


> Digital TV uses the same spectrum as analog TV


No, ATSC uses a new spectrum, not the same as NTSC. That's part of the switch, and *THE* reason Congress set the 2009 deadline for the change. The old NTSC spectrum is being re-assigned. Part of it will be going to emergency services, the rest to public auction for broadband companies.


----------



## classicsat

TiVoPony said:


> From the press release:
> "As is the case with subscribing to the TiVo service today, an early cancellation fee will apply if service is terminated prior to the end of the chosen period."
> 
> Returning the equipment is not an option - you own it. You're not renting a cable box, you've purchased the DVR.
> 
> Pony


Could one transfer the remains of the contract to someone else?
What about a Prepaid bundle, can they be trasnferrerd with no penalty?


----------



## megazone

tibruk said:


> Sorry if this was covered earlier but am I reading this right? If I get a TiVo and get the two-year service commitment and pay the $369 prepaid, does that mean I won't see a bill till the 25th month and then it will be for $18.95 unless I call to change to the service only plan?


Correct.


----------



## megazone

Ereth said:


> II went to Manage My Account. I have two TiVos with Product Lifetime but I cannot find any dates whatsoever. One of them was bought last year, so I know it doesn't qualify, but I honestly do not remember when I bought my first Series 1. Probably not before January 20, 2000, if I had to wager (given my first post here was in June of 2000), but I was curious how I was to find that information under Manage My Account?


Really the best place to check is Billing History. That will show you the exact date the lifetime payment was processed, which isn't necessarily going to be the same date that the unit was activated.


----------



## classicsat

MasterOfPuppets said:


> OK...I read the first page...and I read this last page, cuz I don't have time to read 15 pages...
> If you buy a Tivo with lifetime off ebay with lifetime can you still switch the account over to yourself, or will you need to leave it registred to the previous owner in order to keep using lifetime???
> This new pricing plan sucks...I don't really care what Tivo fanboys try to spin it to...
> Let's hope that the talented people in the community crank out some quality hacks if you're unable to transfer lifetime


Yes, Lifetime and everything else works as it did before. You just cannot buy Lifetime again.


----------



## megazone

davezatz said:


> I think it has to call every few months or TiVo assumes you threw it away or something. There was a recent thread about this. I think it's every 4 months or so...


If a unit doesn't call in for 6 months it is considered inactive and no longer qualifies an account for MSD.


----------



## megazone

Ereth said:


> Uh oh. I have one with a dead modem. It's been set aside until I can fix it. I suspect it has been longer than 4 months. In fact, I'd bet on it. It's not going to work when I finally get it hooked back up?


No, the unit still has lifetime if and when you use it again. It is just that an inactive unit, lifetime or not, doesn't qualify an account for MSD - and if it doesn't call in for 6 months then it is inactive.


----------



## megazone

aindik said:


> Does that mean the "lifetime" is gone? Or just that, until I plug it in, I wouldn't be eligible for the MSD if that one were my only unit?


The latter, it still has lifetime, just not MSD.


----------



## classicsat

mtmra70 said:


> This thread did clear up a lot of concerns I had with this plan....here are my thoughts/comments after reading almost all the posts:
> 
> 1) In regards to the 'this is just like a cell phone provider', this can not be compared to cell providers.
> -They offer contract and non-contract prices. TiVo offers contract only.


They have a simple commitment.


> -They offer MANY plans. TiVo offers two (service-only or service+box).


As for what you get for the service proper, true.
But they have different price/commitment plans. Plus the 1,2, and3 year prepay.


> -They offer MANY different models of equipment. TiVo offers a handful at best
> 
> 
> 
> That is becasue their platform is closed.
> 
> 
> 
> 4) I really think this does introduce more confusion in the way it was released. If TiVo just came out and said "Our units are now free (with commitment) but there is a slightly higher monthly cost and BTW, we no longer issue new lifetime plans", that would have caused less questions. It only makes sense to me after reading 14 pages of comments.
Click to expand...

The confustion is in that some had the notion that all the old plans were going away, filled with the moans of those peeve Lifetime is gone.


----------



## classicsat

TiVoPony said:


> 1. Already have a box? You can subscribe for $12.95/mo, just as before. There's no lifetime, but there'll be pre-pay plans for 1, 2, and 3 years.
> 
> Pony


What are those options, considering one already owns the box outright (meaning the known prices I have I believe are for new "free" boxes, and are unacceptable to pay for a box I already own)?


----------



## classicsat

loganizzi said:


> I'm a lifetime subscriber and I resent the comment that we are "not good customers".


I don't think anybody is calling Lifetime customers "bad". It is just that it is not good for TiVo's bottom line to offer lifetime anymore.


----------



## dswallow

megazone said:


> No, ATSC uses a new spectrum, not the same as NTSC. That's part of the switch, and *THE* reason Congress set the 2009 deadline for the change. The old NTSC spectrum is being re-assigned. Part of it will be going to emergency services, the rest to public auction for broadband companies.


Ummm... no, you're wrong; or maybe just slightly confused.

ATSC uses the same frequency spectrum NTSC uses, though a smaller portion of it can equally serve the same areas currently served with NTSC broadcasts since adjacent frequencies can now be used in the same market.

So a subset of the spectrum currently used is eventually going to be returned for other uses.

Basically the frequencies used by channels 52 through 69 will eventually find other uses than broadcast television. Initially 60-69 will go, then later channels 52-59 will be reallocated.

Channels 63, 64, 68 and 69 will be allocated for public safety use... a total of 24MHz of bandwidth.


----------



## classicsat

kbmb said:


> So I have a couple questions regarding buying a TiVo box at retail:
> 
> 1) So I assume TiVo themselves will not be selling boxes anymore....only offering them through the bundle?


I assume the other way, TiVo will offer the bundle as an option, but will continue to offer the TiVos the old way, except without Lifetime.


> 2) If I go into Best Buy or some other retailer.....what am I going to be able to buy....just 80 hr units? Are the 40 hr units discontinued?


It seems they pretty well are.


> 3) Any idea on the pricing of these retail units?


AFAIK, $220 MSRP.


> 4) I'm assuming TiVo won't be offering any rebates on these now as they will want people to get the discount offer?


AFAIK, they should still have rebate programs for outright purchased DVRs. There likely won't be any for the "bundles", as their pricing seems to figure a rebated DVR cost.


----------



## megazone

OK, having gone over the FAQ, I'd like to clarify something:


> Q. Can I continue to transfer the ownership of my Product Lifetime contracts (e.g., give it to a neighbor, cousin, etc.)?
> 
> A. Yes, just as you can today. You can give your DVR to someone else and the Product Lifetime service goes with the box. Either you or the recipient must call TiVo Customer Support (1-877-367-8486) to transfer the ownership.
> 
> Q. Can I transfer the ownership of my bundled package to someone else and have them complete the balance of the contract?
> 
> A. No. This is not allowed today on monthly contracts, and is not allowed with the new bundles either.


OK, I can understand the month-to-month bundle commitment not being transferable, just like today's service-only monthly plan's one-year commitment is not transferable.

However, if I've *PRE-PAID* for 1, 2, or 3 years, I would expect that to be like lifetime. The service is paid for, TiVo has their money. Why is that not transferable? If something happens to me and I cannot continue to use the TiVo - I have to go overseas, I walk in front of a bus, etc - why can't someone else take over and use what I've already paid for? What happens when people get married and want to merge accounts to have their TiVos on the same account for MRV, etc? Surely there is some mechanism in place to handle these transfers, yes?


----------



## megazone

dswallow said:


> Ummm... no, you're wrong; or maybe just slightly confused.


Or both.



> ATSC uses the same frequency spectrum NTSC uses, though a smaller portion of it can equally serve the same areas currently served with NTSC broadcasts since adjacent frequencies can now be used in the same market.


I thought that the ATSC channels had been assigned a portion of the spectrum unused by NTSC, to allow them to co-exist. Or is it that ATSC is using spectrum 'between' frequencies formerly used by NTSC? How is it being deconflicted while they coexist?



> Basically the frequencies used by channels 52 through 69 will eventually find other uses than broadcast television. Initially 60-69 will go, then later channels 52-59 will be reallocated.
> 
> Channels 63, 64, 68 and 69 will be allocated for public safety use... a total of 24MHz of bandwidth.


So the higher UHF range is being re-allocated, but the lower UHF, and VHF, range is being repurposed from NTSC to ATSC?


----------



## classicsat

bsvid said:


> Perhaps the Tivo enthusiasts forum isn't the place to raise this question. How many Tivo users are like me? I cannot afford another monthly bill for any amount, not 19.95, 12.95 or 10.95. My cable bill is already almost 50. So how many people are like me and used my tax refund to buy their Tivo w/ lifetime. Maybe customers like me are not profitable.


Then buy a prepaid TiVo if you want and are able to pay all at once.


----------



## classicsat

tibruk said:


> Sorry if this was covered earlier but am I reading this right? If I get a TiVo and get the two-year service commitment and pay the $369 prepaid, does that mean I won't see a bill till the 25th month and then it will be for $18.95 unless I call to change to the service only plan?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tibruk


Yes, that is correct.


----------



## dswallow

megazone said:


> Or both.
> 
> I thought that the ATSC channels had been assigned a portion of the spectrum unused by NTSC, to allow them to co-exist. Or is it that ATSC is using spectrum 'between' frequencies formerly used by NTSC? How is it being deconflicted while they coexist?
> 
> So the higher UHF range is being re-allocated, but the lower UHF, and VHF, range is being repurposed from NTSC to ATSC?


Unused frequencies have been used for temporary digital television assignments. There's an election process the stations have gone through to decide where they want their final frequency assignment to be -- typically the choice is their current NTSC channel or the temporary channel they'd been using; if either/both are in the range being repurposed for other uses, then there's a process they have to pick another channel in their market. But the basic way it was determined was to assign frequencies and max power levels that'd approximately cover the same area their analog signal covers now.

ATSC uses the same 6MHz per channel as has been allocated to NTSC, so exactly the same channel space is used. Come 2009 or whenever congress eventually stops changing the deadline, all analog NTSC broadcasting by licensed stations will cease and only digital ATSC broadcasting will be permitted in this spectrum.

108MHz of spectrum is being repurposed. 24MHz of it will go towards public safety uses and the rest less a 6MHz guard band will be auctioned off for other uses.


----------



## classicsat

That Don Guy said:


> Why do I have this feeling that the real target in all of this is companies that sell replacement hard drives?
> 
> Question: how long does a TiVo HD usually last? My Sony's HD lasted about two years, and I had a Replay box (before seeing the TiVo light) that lasted about as long.
> Here's the way I crunch the numbers:
> 1-year prepaid = 12 months x $13/month + $68 for the box
> 2-year prepaid = 24 months x $13/month + $57 for the box
> 3-year prepaid = 36 months x $13/month + $1 for the box


My numbers roughly. I used the actual value of $12.95



> One question: currently, which boxes can be sent back for HD repair/replacement, and under what conditions? Perhaps I am being naive in thinking three years in advance is a good idea if I discover two years later that TiVo won't repair/replace it (at least not for free). Then again, if I pay for three months of service, wouldn't TiVo be obligated to supply the hardware for that period?
> 
> -- Don


All, under the manufacturers conditions. I think TiVos fee is/was $79 for out of warranty replacement.
Of course, you can always replace an HDD yourself, if you are so inclined.


----------



## classicsat

DVDKingdom said:


> The only complaint I have about this new pricing is the fact after the contract terms are met the customer is stuck at the contracted rate unless they call and request to change plans. IMO this is underhanded and possibly even illegal. After the term is up the price should go back to the current monthly rate of "service only" in this case $12.95 or $6.95 using MSD.


It is called Negative Option billing, and I think is illegal in Ontario, if not Canada. Rogers Cable got in trouble in '95 or so for adding channels,
and billing for them unless the customer called up and said no.


----------



## classicsat

aindik said:


> If I have a lifetime box, and I decide to decommission it and not sell it, and I never tell TiVo that I've unplugged it, I'm still eligible for the MSD on my other units, right? The lifetime box doesn't have to make a daily call, right?


It needs to be reasonable active, IOW it needs to phone home at least every couple months. To be safe, every billing cycle (month).
If it doesn't phone home, TiVo will assume it is dead, and therefore charge full on your active DVR.


> In that case, I'm eligible for the MSD forever - for long after I have any actual use for my lifetime box. That means, under the current plan, I can get an 80 hour DVR for $224 next week


If you mean the prepaid, you existing DVR will keep its MSD status, regardless what your lifetime does. When the prepaid is up, one DVR will go to full, unless you Lifetime DVR is active.


----------



## classicsat

aindik said:


> I'm in a similar situation. I have an S2 box with lifetime that a friend gave me, that simply died (won't boot past "starting up") after attempting to install 7.x over 4.x (x because I don't remember) after HE hadn't used it in over a year. That was at least 8 months ago. I suspect one or both of the hard drives are dead. I haven't gotten around to fixing it. Does that mean the "lifetime" is gone? Or just that, until I plug it in, I wouldn't be eligible for the MSD if that one were my only unit? (Luckiy, it's not my only unit, so that last part is a hypothetical).


Lifetime is gone until you repair the unit and put it into service.


----------



## cwerdna

> Originally Posted by cwerdna
> I still see the 40 hour refurbs at http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp. With this new scheme does "Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation." still apply assuming we upgrade to lifetime before the cutoff next Wednesday 3/15/06?





TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, but to get Product Lifetime you have to activate on or before 3/15 and you have to have the unit's TiVo Service Number, so act quickly.


It would be nice if we could order the refurb 40 hour or new 80 hour boxes WITH lifetime subscription online before the cutoff or have you guys activate it for us upon shipment. Right now, I'm actually thinking about picking up 1-2 more 40 refurb hour units w/lifetime but it's cutting it close.

It would help you guys get some more sales... oh wait, you don't want more people subscribe to lifetime.  <drats>


----------



## cwerdna

dstoffa said:


> That may be true now. But in two, four, six years, those one-shot lifetime units generate NOTHING for Tivo. They are a burden on the balance sheet.
> 
> Unless Tivo can come up with a plan that guarentees income in the future, their backers are gonna pull out. A lifetime sub sold today has no value to Tivo next fiscal year. That's where the problem is. I wonder how many Tivos are on the street that are lifetime, that have been online since day one... And how much Tivo wishes them struck by lightning.....


Incorrect.

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050415/tivo10-k.html
"We offer our customers the opportunity to purchase service for the lifetime of an individual TiVo-enabled DVR. We recognize revenue from product lifetime subscriptions over four years...."

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=4267033&Type=HTML mentions "Included in the 4,364,000 subscriptions are approximately 100,000 lifetime subscriptions that have reached the end of the 48-month period TiVo uses to recognize lifetime subscription revenue. These lifetime subscriptions no longer generate subscription revenue."


----------



## Arcady

My response to the new plans was to refurbish my own series 2 with a new power supply and hard drive and activate lifetime service on it. I mostly use DireTiVo units, but it is nice to have a full-featured unit around too, and I don't want an extra monthly bill to pay.

I wonder how much a lifetime unit will sell for on ebay after nobody can buy lifetime any more.


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## hi-nrg-joe

For those of you complaining about missing out on Lifetime for the S3 box, why don't you switch to Lifetime now with your current box, if you don't already have it, and when the S3 comes out, just pay the $6.95/month as stated in the MSD plan.

C'mon, at $6.95 it will last over 3 1/2 years before you hit the $299 lifetime price, and by then technology will have changed and you'll probably by a new box anyways.

Even without lifetime, wouldn't you pay $6.95/month for a S3?


----------



## lordargent

hi-nrg-joe said:


> For those of you complaining about missing out on Lifetime for the S3 box, why don't you switch to Lifetime now with your current box, if you don't already have it, and when the S3 comes out, just pay the $6.95/month as stated in the MSD plan.
> 
> C'mon, at $6.95 it will last over 3 1/2 years before you hit the $299 lifetime price, and by then technology will have changed and you'll probably by a new box anyways.
> 
> Even without lifetime, wouldn't you pay $6.95/month for a S3?


But, at the end of that 3 1/2 years, the box will be nearly worthless due to the same technological changes that you mention (at least, that seems to be what you're implying).

Whereas now, with lifetime service, the box would still have some value.

/as for me, I don't really care about new features being added, I bought my tivo for one reason, to record my television shows, and as long as it does that properly I'm happy. Most of the features added over the years don't add any value to me YMMV. Given the choice between having updates, and having lifetime subscriptions, lifetime subscriptions win out.


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## Bimwad

I can understand the appeal of lifetime for the consumer and also lament its loss. I can also understand the financial disadvantage for TiVo to continue to offer it. It was fun while it lasted.

But to me, a bigger mistake was the implementation of the minimum 1-year contract, which remains even with the new scheme(?). Agreeing to a commitment usually entails some sort of discount, but none was given even after the requirement came into effect. No carrot in return for the stick.

I suspect that for most subscribers, especially those who don't hang out here and only use the most basic of TiVo features, $13/mo for a program guide is silly. To be locked into a contract for it is even sillier. IMO, that's been the biggest hurdle to wider adoption all along, once the uninitiated get past the understanding of what a DVR does.

I've got a Basic box that does what it needs to do, for no cost unless they choose to take that away, too. With the changing dynamics of the whole media delivery market, and the iffy reliability of the hardware, I'll probably skip moving it to lifetime and just wait to see what comes down the pike in the next couple years.


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## interactiveTV

lordargent said:


> But, at the end of that 3 1/2 years, the box will be nearly worthless due to the same technological changes that you mention (at least, that seems to be what you're implying).
> 
> Whereas now, with lifetime service, the box would still have some value.


I would guess that's part of the point.

There *is* a lifetime cost that is profitable for Tivo. We can figure it pretty closely. For arguement's sake, call it $550.

If Tivo implemented this plan or any plan and raised lifetime to $550, it does what it's done in the past, increased the value of lifetime subbed boxes in the secondary market.

While Tivo can't do much about the (rough approx) 1 million lifetime units in the wild right now except wait for them to die. There will be -- as it stands -- no S3 lifetimes. This should, in my early morning brain, tamper the used market and allow the units to depreciate "properly".

S3 units on the secondary market (read: Ebay) should sell for a discount to their hardware only cost (not initially, not supply/demand pricing). As it stands, if Tivo offered a more expensive lifetime (say $550), it would in effect _increase_ the value of older units. Tivo has no interest in making a S1 with lifetime worth even more than it is now. That unit _should_ have an extremely low, well depreciated value and it does on the hardware. It is the associated service (lifetime attached to the unit) that keeps its value up. Hand-me-downs become less interesting to the getter. It's just depreciated hardware.

While Tivo wants subscribers and secondary units -- even lifetime with no further significant revenue to Tivo -- it needs to drive quarterly revenue even more. Tivo needs to spur new sales. Increasing the cost of lifetime would add value to already lifetimed boxes and give Tivo * no economic benefit* from the added value in those million (so much easier to talk in big, round numbers) lifetime subscriptions.

I know Tivo employees here have said they looked at lifetime but it would have had to have been too high. Seems like a strange arguement unless you consider the increased value to the installed lifetime base from which Tivo benefits not at all and Tivo even loses as the secondary market units become _more_ valuable, not less.

By dropping lifetime, Tivo should be able to

1) spur faster adoption of new hardware as its released. There will be little economic benefit to keeping an older generation monthly subbed box. Yes, once the box is "paid for" (either upfront or through the monthly), you don't need to buy another but...

2) the depreciation will be more accurately reflected on the old hardware by eliminating the service value inherent in the box.

There is, of course, an installed base of lifetimes already. These will eventually die and/or become obsolete. Tivo needs to drive new SALES even if it doesn't drive as many new SUBSCRIBERS. If a subscriber merely replaces one box with another, Tivo gets a new sale even if it merely retains the subscriber. I think Tivo can live with that.

Caveat: it's early, one coffee and I may not have articulated myself well here.

_ITV


----------



## vman41

megazone said:


> Or both.
> 
> I thought that the ATSC channels had been assigned a portion of the spectrum unused by NTSC, to allow them to co-exist. Or is it that ATSC is using spectrum 'between' frequencies formerly used by NTSC? How is it being deconflicted while they coexist?
> 
> So the higher UHF range is being re-allocated, but the lower UHF, and VHF, range is being repurposed from NTSC to ATSC?


ATSC uses the same frequencies as analog NTSC, but the digital transmission method, 8VSB, spreads the energy over a channel's 6 mhz band in such a way that it is just noise to an analog tuning circuit.

Originally, UHF went to channel 83. 70-83 were taken back when the digital transition plan was first announced, later they decided to reallocate 52-69 as well. I believe they originally wanted to take back 2-6 on the grounds there were technical problems with 8VSB in that frequency range but later changed their minds.

The PSIP data in ATSC means the channel tuned to/displayed on the TV is independant of frequency slot that is being used by the channel. Most stations opt to use their old analog channel numbers for their digital operations. WBNS-DT, for example, shows up as channel 10-1 even though it is received on UHF channel 21.


----------



## HDTiVo

> Lifetime service option and multiple box discount are going away? Everything requires a yearly commitment and Tivo raised prices? How is any of this good? Tivo says that the new service options tested well, but for how long? I don't see how a restrictive and confusing pricing scheme will help Tivo in the long run. Tivo had problems getting customers when they offered GOOD deals.


In addition, I can already see what is going to happen on TCF starting 13 months from now when people start reading $19.95 charges on their credit cards.



classicsat said:


> Originally Posted by dgh
> The 2nd paragraph contradicts the first. If you haven't raised the prices then what am I celebrating?
> 
> 
> 
> Just the further sale of Lifetime is going away.
Click to expand...

I guess then they've eliminated prices.


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## Narkul

If I buy a TiVo today and buy lifetime will I still get my rebate that requires a 12 month subscription. 
The requirement states:
Requires service activation ($12.95 per month). 1-year service commitment required. 

Sorry if this has already been covered but I don't have much time to search for answers.


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## JacksTiVo

Everyone's postings have been quite helpful. It never occurred to me that the lifetime service of my Sony Series 1 results in a high residual value on the secondary (Ebay) marketplace. After reviewing the prices on Ebay, I just converted to Lifetime Subs my recently purchased (refurbished) 80 hour Series 2 that came with a $150 gift subscription.

Here's my logic:

My Cable company (Cablevision - NJ) has mentioned that they plan to start providing by the end of 2006 a TIVO based high Def box. Currently they charge $10/month for a Scientific-Atlanta DVR(not at all user friendly dvr). When they become available I plan to obtain one and sell my Series 1 or give it to one of our kids. So far w only need two TIVO's in our house.

Let's say my Series 1 (200 hour) has a $200 residual value (probably higher after new Lifetime subsrciptions end next week). If it dies beyond reasonable repair costs (other than the HD, power supply or modem replacement), then about 6 months later TIVO assumes it is dead and my Series 2 unit goes from $6.95 per month to $12.95 per month. My upgrade to Lifetime just cost me around $164 (($299 - $150) + $6.95 x 2 months)), so the if my Series 1 fails I will break even in ($164 - 6.95x6months)/($12.95-6.95) = 20 months not counting that the series 2 now has a higher residual value due to the end of the availablilty of new Llifetime Subs.

I believe it is a no brainer that anyone who has recently purchased a series 2 with the gift subscription certificate should upgrade to Lifetime since you will only pay the incremental increase up to the $299 price of Lifetime. 

If you only have one TIVO and are paying $12.95 per month, it pays to convert to lifetime. At $299/12.95 = 23 month pay back and the TIVO will have a high residual value. 

When I obtain a HiDef TIVO, via Cablevison or the new series 3 and if my Series 1 is still functioning, I can sell it on the residual market and recoup the additional cost of converting my Series 2 to Lifetime and make a profit.

One final note, obviously, some people may not be able to afford to pay the additional cost upgrading to Lifetime Subs service. IMO if you can, then do it. 

Jack

P.S. Full disclosure: I own TIVO stock, so their pricing structure change is a good move. My 52 month old Series 1 makes no money for us stockholders.


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## Ereth

The one thing I see that this does, and InteractiveTV alluded to it, is that it frees you to replace your TiVo with a newer one with a new feature set, pretty much any time you want to.

No more "When will this be available on the Series 1? (or Series 2 for that matter)" questions. Want the new features that the Series 4 or 5 or 6 or whatever have? Get TiVo to send you one and stop paying the monthly fee on your older unit. The upgrade is *almost* free to the end user, at least if they haven't finished their commitment yet.

This is, roughly, the same model that many people use for their cell phones. Pay a monthly fee and get a new cell phone every two years. People love that and those plans DO sell well. The cell phone companies like it AND they get to introduce new phones with new features all the time, and people simply replace their existing phones when their 2 years are up.

People like me, who buy a $600 Treo 650 and a TiVo with lifetime service aren't interested in either deal, a new phone every 2 years or a commitment to TiVo, but as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, this isn't targetted at us.

And yet, in a way, it is. I have an aging Series 1 with a broken modem. If it didn't have Lifetime I would have probably just dumped it. But with Lifetime it's worth it to me to keep it working, even if I have to go to 9th Tee and get a network card for it. But it's a series 1. I can't do any of the new things that TiVo has been touting for, well, years now. I don't get the advantages of the Series 2. I have one of those, too, but I can't use Multi-Room Viewing because I (stubbornly) stick to my Series 1. If there were no cost to me to replace that with a Series 2 (or even a Series 3), then that box would probably never be turned on again, and I'd have a new super-duper TiVo series whatever with new features AND I would undoubtedly be a happy TiVo customer.

I mean, really, wouldn't ALL the Series 1 owners like a free replacement with a Series 2? Well, all that haven't hacked it to do things the Series 2 can't, anyway? All the customers who TiVo actually wants, rather than those who want to run it unsubbed, or use it for things TiVo doesn't really want you to use it for? 

In the long term, that's the market they'll get. People who trade out their boxes every 2 or 3 years for a new one with new features. And because of that they'll improve their revenue stream AND they'll be able to be more nimble with new features, because they won't be in quite the same boat as far as not being able to support older boxes. People will simply swap the older for the new and get the new functionality, assuming the new functionality is compelling enough.

The cell phone companies have proven this model works. Many of us don't like it, but "we" haven't been a large enough market for TiVo to sell to. I can't blame them for aiming at the larger market. And I can't blame us for missing lifetime. My original thought when I started reading this thread was EXACTLY the same as what Spire posted. "No Lifetime? No TiVo!". But as I've thought about it longer I begin to see why TiVo is doing this and what motivation they hope to send to their customer base, and some good things that can come out of it, like the ability to just get a new box and keep paying exactly the same monthly fee with no changes and thus get whatever new features are now available.

Thinking about that I almost wish I didn't have Lifetime. I could swap BOTH my Series 1 and my Series 2 for a pair of Series 3's later this year and suddenly have 4 HDTV tuners effectively for free. 

That's not really a bad deal when you think about it.


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## HDTiVo

Here is what it would cost me today to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @ $50 after rebate: $200
Lifetime Service on 1 TiVo $299
----
Upfront Cost $499

Each year service ([email protected]$6.95/mo) $250.20

Here is what it would cost me next week to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @$224 first year:	$896

Service: $0 first year, then ($12.95+3*$6.95)*12 = $405.60

. Old Price New Price Difference
1st Year Total $ 749.20 $896 $146.80
2nd Year Total $ 999.40 $1301.60 $302.20
3rd Year Total $1249.60 $1707.20 $457.60
4th $1499.80 $2112.80 *$613.00*
5th $1750.00 $2518.40 *$768.40*
6th $2000.20 $2924.00 *$923.80*
7th $2250.40 $3329.60 *$1079.20*
8th $2500.60 $3735.20 *$1234.60*
9th $2750.80 $4140.80 *$1390.00*



megazone said:


> You seriously can't figure it out? REALLY?!
> 
> They already spent the SAC on selling the box in the first place, to whomever sold it to you - or originally acquired it. So that box is in the red as far as TiVo is concerned. That debt doesn't vanish just because the box changes hands. This scenario is 100% identical to buying the box from TiVo and activating lifetime on it, financially, as far as TiVo is concerned. That should be obvious.
> 
> If you want a different example, say someone buys the box and subs it monthly for 2 years, then you buy it from them and put lifetime on it. NOW it is a different story, because TiVo, between their two years and your lifetime, has about the equivalent of 4 years of subscription fees on the box.
> 
> But I'd expect the number of units being subbed lifetime well into their service lives is not very high at all, so that's a corner case.


Very good, now *YOU* understand the first step; we agree regarding a *secondhand* box. I would expect agreement even on a box that's spent 1yr @$224.

So what should Lifetime & bundled new box cost at the absolute max?
*Answer: $224+299=$523*
That compares to $469 for 3 years' use.

Now, say TiVo _WANTS_ to make more money on each sub. Fine, I have no problem with that. Charge $549, $569 or even $599 for *Bundled Lifetime*

Now you've saved the Lifetime option, made TiVo more money, given another option for TiVo to collect lots of cash upfront to finance growth, and given people what they want - people who are big TiVo fans.

Even at $599, the customer breaks even before the end of 5 years versus the new prices.

I won't even start to explain why Bundled Lifetime is a good deal for TiVo at well under $523.


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## danieljanderson

JacksTiVo said:


> My Cable company (Cablevision - NJ) has mentioned that they plan to start providing by the end of 2006 a TIVO based high Def box. Currently they charge $10/month for a Scientific-Atlanta DVR(not at all user friendly dvr). When they become available I plan to obtain one and sell my Series 1 or give it to one of our kids. So far w only need two TIVO's in our house.


I thought only Comcast had announced any partnering with TiVo????


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## Stormspace

TiVoPony said:


> From the press release:
> "As is the case with subscribing to the TiVo service today, an early cancellation fee will apply if service is terminated prior to the end of the chosen period."
> 
> Returning the equipment is not an option - you own it. You're not renting a cable box, you've purchased the DVR.
> 
> Pony


I've thought about this statement and with all due respect, TiVo may bandy about the idea that you are buying the box, but with TiVo requiring a sub to work it's no different than the cable box you have to return. Neither has any value once you stop paying. In the cable co's case you give the box back, in TiVo's case you throw it in the trash.


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## Bierboy

Stormspace said:


> I've thought about this statement and with all due respect, TiVo may bandy about the idea that you are buying the box, but with TiVo requiring a sub to work it's no different than the cable box you have to return. Neither has any value once you stop paying. In the cable co's case you give the box back, in TiVo's case you throw it in the trash.


Not true...you can renew your service any time with the same box.


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## joshguy875

So I know that there's been a lot of discussion based on this, but here's the thing that I still don't get.

I've seen a friend's tivo hooked up to his cable box and it's excruciating if you want to channel surf. You click up and then you watch as the tivo inputs the number of the next channel to the box and then you see the onscreen program guide from the cable box appear behind Tivo's. It's a terrible solution, even if the only one.

I've never had cable boxes and don't like them. I just have the basic cable that comes from the wall to my TV. When this changeover takes place, will that signal that comes in from the wall to my Tivo change such that my tivo won't be able to use it? Will I be stuck with a Tivo that can't channel surf because it's fed through a converter box?


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## lajohn27

classicsat said:


> It is called Negative Option billing, and I think is illegal in Ontario, if not Canada. Rogers Cable got in trouble in '95 or so for adding channels, and billing for them unless the customer called up and said no.


This is actually not negative option billing. Negative option billing is actually adding services and adding cost without explicit approval from the customer.

You are signing up for the 18.95 plan. At the end of your commitment, you can continue on that plan, or call and make a change.

In theory at least, if not practice, automatically changing your price plan without your explicit approval (higher or lower) ... would be a form of negative option billing. (ie: costs or services were changed, added or removed from your account without proper notice or explicit approval.)

J


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## ChuckyBox

Arcady said:


> I wonder how much a lifetime unit will sell for on ebay after nobody can buy lifetime any more.


I expect lifetime service to return once TiVo has a handle on how this new pricing model works and how much subscriber growth they can drive from it. The lifetime price will go up, and the going rate on ebay will tell them how much they can charge for it.


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## HDTiVo

cwerdna said:


> These lifetime subscriptions no longer generate *subscription* revenue


Emphasis added. Lifetime subs do however continue to earn TiVo other types of revenues which are based on number of subscribers as well as transactional.


----------



## lajohn27

Ok, as of 1 year ago there were 100,000 boxes that have had their revenue spread out over four years and are :

a) no longer considered a revenue generating subscription on the bottom line and..

b) actually still costing TIVO to service

It would seem likely that number will only increase year over year. Good enough reason to discontinue lifetime... considering when lifetime subs were thought up - HD replacement aftermarket (Weaknees etc) .. the hacking community etc.. none of that existed. I'm sure the exec that thought of lifetime was thinking eventually when the HD died.. so did lifetime.

J


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## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> Emphasis added. Lifetime subs do however continue to earn TiVo other types of revenues which are based on number of subscribers as well as transactional.


Advertising revenues could well be allocated in the pennies per machine per annum. So that is negligible at best.

And when was the last time ANY of your TIVOs generated transactional revenue outside the subscription payments.

NONE of mine ever have.

J


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## HDTiVo

> interactiveTV
> I know Tivo employees here have said they looked at lifetime but it would have had to have been too high. Seems like a strange arguement unless you consider the increased value to the installed lifetime base from which Tivo benefits not at all and Tivo even loses as the secondary market units become more valuable, not less.


Raising the price on the secondary market makes TiVo's current offerings MORE ATTRACTIVE compared to the secondary market, thereby relatively enouraging new sales, a benefit for TiVo. Higher Lifetime pricing makes TiVo more money on new Lifetime sales. Another benefit.

TiVo losses nothing otherwise with regard to the increased value one might get on your Lifetime. Indeed, maybe it makes one even happier and more of an evangelist...

Its WIN, WIN.



> 1) spur faster adoption of new hardware as its released. There will be little economic benefit to keeping an older generation monthly subbed box. Yes, once the box is "paid for" (either upfront or through the monthly), you don't need to buy another but...


Tivo losses money on new hardware sales (SAC). Spurring new box sales is less good for TiVo than keeping existing boxes subscribed.


----------



## ChuckyBox

interactiveTV said:


> There is, of course, an installed base of lifetimes already. These will eventually die and/or become obsolete. Tivo needs to drive new SALES even if it doesn't drive as many new SUBSCRIBERS. If a subscriber merely replaces one box with another, Tivo gets a new sale even if it merely retains the subscriber. I think Tivo can live with that.


You make some good points. I think there are a couple issues you should also factor in, though. First, the price of lifetime boxes can only go up so much. As the price goes up, the attractiveness of the lifetime sub is reduced. If the breakeven point for the consumer was five years, very few people would likely take it since hardware becomes obsolete faster than that and there isn't much to gain. So there isn't a dollar-for-dollar increase in resale value with increases in the price of a lifetime sub.

Second, the above quoted paragraph assumes TiVo makes money on box sales. This may be true for the S3, but it will never be true for the main subscriber-attracting product, where they subsidize the box precisely to get *new* subs. The reason that product obsolescence is good for TiVo at this point is to get existing lifetime subscribers off of lifetime and onto monthly. But there is actually an advantage to TiVo in having an active secondary market for its boxes: even though the sale of used boxes results in no net change in the number of subs, that result is achieved without the hardware subsidy portion of SAC. It is only the lifetime boxes that TiVo would like to see disappear.

Finally, there is some advantage to allowing or even encouraging the existing base of lifetimes to live on: bulk subscriber numbers help TiVo's advertising business and will also be available to ecommerce that TiVo hopes to develop.

BTW, there are about 700K current lifetime subs.


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## dstoffa

cwerdna said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050415/tivo10-k.html
> "We offer our customers the opportunity to purchase service for the lifetime of an individual TiVo-enabled DVR. We recognize revenue from product lifetime subscriptions over four years...."
> 
> http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=4267033&Type=HTML mentions "Included in the 4,364,000 subscriptions are approximately 100,000 lifetime subscriptions that have reached the end of the 48-month period TiVo uses to recognize lifetime subscription revenue. These lifetime subscriptions no longer generate subscription revenue."


So is it two or four years before those Lifetime units become a burden on the balance sheet?

Bottom line is those old lifetimes cost Tivo dearly, just like GM's generous benefit plans offered back in the 60s and 70s hinder their ability to compete in today's world.


----------



## Late_Adopter

The big question for me is do I go out and buy 3 tivos and activate lifetime subs on them just for resale, and use any profits to build my PC PVR. 

Someone earlier made the salient point. Technology increases will cause lifetime NTSC TIVOs to become obsolete. But this will take some time. I would expect a mad rush ala gold rush on lifetime subs until the 18th.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Advertising revenues could well be allocated in the pennies per machine per annum. So that is negligible at best.
> 
> And when was the last time ANY of your TIVOs generated transactional revenue outside the subscription payments.
> 
> NONE of mine ever have.
> 
> J


In many cases you would never know transaction revenue had been generated to TiVo. Buy a movie ticket; Signup and tune to Live365; Schedule through Verizon. Do you think TiVo is not monetizing any of this? Then there are things like future VOD and other future apps.

While advertising is small now, it is growing and important to TiVo in the future. More subs means reaching up to higher value advertisers - there are some adds spaces you can't sell if you don't offer enough audience reach. So advertising revenue is a more than linear function of the number of subscribers.

In summation, beyond subscription fees, other revenues from and because of subscribers will be more and more important to TiVo in the future.


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Raising the price on the secondary market makes TiVo's current offerings MORE ATTRACTIVE compared to the secondary market, thereby relatively enouraging new sales, a benefit for TiVo.


 I don't agree. The "used" boxes _should_ have very little value as depreciated hardware. At four years, a good portion of these boxes would be "retired" if _not_ for the value inherent in the service attached to them. Remove the value (not of the current lifetimes as you can't but of future hardware), and consumers will have _very_ little reason to buy an older generation box versus something current.

The SAC issue exists regardless but I see that as an issue of marketing and distribution. Tivo even believes a lower "upfront" will improve SAC -- as they tested with rebates and give aways which they could not makre profitable due to the existance of the lifetime option.

As I said, this drives *revenue* as it gives consumers an incentive (or the lack of a disincentive) to upgrade the hardware. Without the attached lifetime, and I'm not making the error of using myself but just highlighting, I would have upgraded one of my original S1s a long time ago just for the MRV features. Tivo doesn't gain a new subscriber or a new box (the old S1, without lifetime, would probably be disposed of in our consumption society or torn apart for parts), but it does gain the *revenue* from the new box sale. Without rebates, SAC should decline.



HDTiVo said:


> Tivo losses money on new hardware sales (SAC). Spurring sales is less good for TiVo than keeping existing boxes subscribed.


 Tivo loses money of S2 hardware _currently_. First, I expect straight sales of Tivo to dwindle with bundles being the main sales channel for a bit. Second, I expect Tivo to make a gross margin on the S3.

Chucky, yes, I rounded to 1 million. I like round numbers and for this it doesn't matter all that much. And yes, the SAC, which I brought up in my first post in the elphantine thread, is of paramount concern but you still have the issue of inherent value in a depreciated asset. Lifetime is the reason. Remove lifetime and you remove _current_ subscribers disincentive to upgrade hardware.

If you pay $7/month now (on multiple unit and rounded) and have an S2 and the S3 comes out, you will still need to pay for the S3 (say $700) but you don't have the "penalty" of losing your old lifetime as well. The depreciated S2 is worth very little and the upgrade "cost" is lower. That _should_ lower SAC. I'm not sure the upgrade cycle disincentive through the lifetime value would have been that big from S1 to S2 but the next upgrade, to S3, should give S2 owners on non-lifetime boxes a pretty good reason to go for the next generation.

Of course, a lifetime "transfer" would do the same thing but give Tivo less revenue.

I'm not sure the "bundles" and the complexity will be an easier sell to consumers. I DO think the need to call at contract end for the lower price is SLEAZY and well beneath what I expect of Tivo (but so is partnering with the PTC so I guess I'm not as shocked as I would have been two months ago). However, the more I consider it, the more eliminating lifetime makes sense for Tivo's drive to profitability. There are still hundreds of thousands of lifetime units (anyone have the S1 lifetime numbers handy so we can break out between S1 and S2?) in the wild and they aren't going to go away tomorrow, but eliminating lifetime -- from Tivo corporate POV -- makes sense it allowing the hardware to depreciate "correctly".

Will it make a dent in Vista, VIIV, Cable Card, and the rest of the dramatic changes that will occur in Holiday 06 and for the following years? I really have no idea. A Vista/CC/VIIV box for $1,200 with no further fees ever will certainly appeal to a segment of the market (maybe me) but until we can evaluate the actual launched products, it will be hard to guage.

My $0.02

_ITV

P.S. while I have very little faith in transactional revenue, obviously old S1 units don't generate it. S3 will probably be the best platform for it -- though I'm still skeptical -- and Tivo should incentivise S2 owners to upgrade and killing lifetime on new units will help.


----------



## HDTiVo

dstoffa said:


> So is it two or four years before those Lifetime units become a burden on the balance sheet?
> 
> Bottom line is those old lifetimes cost Tivo dearly, just like GM's generous benefit plans offered back in the 60s and 70s hinder their ability to compete in today's world.


It is four years from a financial statement perspective, if I understand your question.

However, its *up to 11 years * at $299 for Lifetime... explanation


----------



## HDTiVo

ITV:

Let's narrow the discussion down to this for the moment:

Does the new price structure, and any reasonable implication it has for S3 pricing later this year, make any sense in the current competitive market, let alone the market expected by this XMAS?


----------



## stevenschulman

I have been a typical TiVo fanatic up to this point. I have an S1 and two S2s with lifefime on all of them. I have convinced many friends to get TiVos, my son, his in-laws, etc. 

True or not, TiVo seems to me to be getting greedy. I don't like dealing with greedy companies. I don't see why their incremental monthly expense to support lifetime subscriptions should be more than pennies. I would think that TiVo would be selling the statistics they collect for significant profit, and numbers from lifetime subscribers should be worth a premium, since these are confirmed television watchers. I have never begrudged them making money off of this information, but, as I said, they now just seem greedy.


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> ITV:
> 
> Let's narrow the discussion down to this for the moment:
> 
> Does the new price structure, and any reasonable implication it has for S3 pricing later this year, make any sense in the current competitive market, let alone the market expected by this XMAS?


 As I said, I don't know. I find the schemes confusing, I find the call to get the lower monthly sleazy, and I have no idea where Tivo will price the S3.

Basically, though, I can break it down as two decisions. They are independent.

(1) eliminate lifetime to allow boxes to depreciate "correctly" and remove the disincentive current subscribers have to upgrading their hardware (which itself creates a "one time" disincentive for current lifetime holders to move to new hardware without the lifetime option). I see this as the correct (from Tivo corporate POV) _long-term_ decision. There's still a lot of lifetimes, you've created a new disincentive outlined a moment ago, and there's the consumer backlash issue.

(2) Monthly (or annual pre-paid) pricing schemes. This can be played with and I don't think the current announced system has much clarity for a consumer walking into a Radio Shack. I expect Tivo to change the system by the holidays or whenever the S3 is available. I can't really evaluate how it will work except my gut says it will be confusing.

So, given that decisions 1 and 2 are now independent (lifetime is gone, with good reason and monthly schemes exist), does current scheme make sense? That's your question and my long-winded shorthand answer is NO.

Too confusing, too sleazy, too strange. But I don't have a better solution. Tivo NEEDS to drive to profitability, something some posters have denied (or claimed would come eventually with hardware cost declines).

I still see distribution and marketing as two big black holes. Tivo advertising has consistently stunk. It has cost tens of millions and done little. Comcast should help that too.

Comcast, btw, from the call, is on track for "year end 2006" or something akin. Seems like a delay. Can't remember.

SA needs to become profitable or at least not such a black hole before cable and S3 arrives. At least slow the cash burn.

_ITV


----------



## plowsterbabe

This thread has just exploded, and I apologize if this was pointed out since I don't have time to review every post (it's coffee break time!)

I have a Series 2 box that has a Lifetime subscription on it, and I've had the box for 18 months. I truly enjoy the TiVo experience and it's made it worthwhile for me to continue having cable, which I was on the verge of canceling before I got my TiVo. 

One thing that I've always wondered, though...if Lifetime subscribers are a financial "burden" on TiVo, why isn't a system made that's somewhat analogous to how computer operating systems are upgraded? Consider Lifetime to ensure that you will keep the basic scheduling and features that are on the system when you purchase it. You will receive bug fixes for that generation of software. If new software is created that provides awesome new functionality, make that an option to purchase for a reasonable upgrade price. This would be mutually beneficial--provide an incentive for TiVo to create and develop new features that I find compelling enough to upgrade for as well as provide for additional revenue off of Lifetime subscribers. 

To me, this type of model makes sense. I have a Mac that happily runs 10.3. I can pay the upgrade to 10.4 if I want to, but on that particular machine, there's no pressing need.


----------



## classicsat

joshguy875 said:


> So I know that there's been a lot of discussion based on this, but here's the thing that I still don't get.
> 
> I've seen a friend's tivo hooked up to his cable box and it's excruciating if you want to channel surf. You click up and then you watch as the tivo inputs the number of the next channel to the box and then you see the onscreen program guide from the cable box appear behind Tivo's. It's a terrible solution, even if the only one.


Don't surf that way. At least use the guide. At most, surf the NPL for something to watch.



> I've never had cable boxes and don't like them. I just have the basic cable that comes from the wall to my TV. When this changeover takes place, will that signal that comes in from the wall to my Tivo change such that my tivo won't be able to use it? Will I be stuck with a Tivo that can't channel surf because it's fed through a converter box?


If you have antenna yes. If you have cable perhaps.

The "changeover" obligated by the FCC only applies to OTA transmissions, not cable, not hardware (apart from anything that tunes analog TV requiring a digital tuner), anthough digital cable may be affected.

The Series 3 will directly tune digital cable, eliminating both concerns.


----------



## classicsat

HDTiVo said:


> Emphasis added. Lifetime subs do however continue to earn TiVo other types of revenues which are based on number of subscribers as well as transactional.


Apparently not enough though to makeit worth it for them to keep Lifetime on.


----------



## mtmra70

plowsterbabe said:


> This thread has just exploded, and I apologize if this was pointed out since I don't have time to review every post (it's coffee break time!)
> 
> I have a Series 2 box that has a Lifetime subscription on it, and I've had the box for 18 months. I truly enjoy the TiVo experience and it's made it worthwhile for me to continue having cable, which I was on the verge of canceling before I got my TiVo.
> 
> One thing that I've always wondered, though...if Lifetime subscribers are a financial "burden" on TiVo, why isn't a system made that's somewhat analogous to how computer operating systems are upgraded? Consider Lifetime to ensure that you will keep the basic scheduling and features that are on the system when you purchase it. You will receive bug fixes for that generation of software. If new software is created that provides awesome new functionality, make that an option to purchase for a reasonable upgrade price. This would be mutually beneficial--provide an incentive for TiVo to create and develop new features that I find compelling enough to upgrade for as well as provide for additional revenue off of Lifetime subscribers.
> 
> To me, this type of model makes sense. I have a Mac that happily runs 10.3. I can pay the upgrade to 10.4 if I want to, but on that particular machine, there's no pressing need.


I'm sorry, but your logic is not accepted here. Please try to sell this common sense elsewhere.


----------



## tally

duoart said:


> cancel the order and go to you local bestbuy and get a 80GB unit and send in the rebate. ( $219 -$150) and lifetime it. My sister and I are doing so for my parents today.


Or go to CompUSA and pick up the 80hr for $29.99 after rebates and lifetime it.


----------



## timckelley

BTW, I just talked to customer service on the phone a few minutes ago, asking them a question, and towards the end of the call, I let her know that what prompted my call was that I heard a "rumor" that lifetime was being discontinued. She kind of hemhawed and seemed to not want to officially admit this to be true, but then she did admit there was a press release recently that divulged this.


----------



## timckelley

tally said:


> Or go to CompUSA and pick up the 80hr for $29.99 after rebates and lifetime it.


Really? It can be done that cheaply?


----------



## classicsat

HDTiVo said:


> In many cases you would never know transaction revenue had been generated to TiVo. Buy a movie ticket; Signup and tune to Live365; Schedule through Verizon. Do you think TiVo is not monetizing any of this?


Not as a net gain (revenue from those would subsidise providing the other online services), and certainly not as a substitute for revenue not earned from a lifetime sub.


> While advertising is small now, it is growing and important to TiVo in the future. More subs means reaching up to higher value advertisers - there are some adds spaces you can't sell if you don't offer enough audience reach. So advertising revenue is a more than linear function of the number of subscribers.


And if they get too brash about it, they will turn off current and future subscribers.


> In summation, beyond subscription fees, other revenues from and because of subscribers will be more and more important to TiVo in the future.


True, but still the ad and online service reveune on a Lifetime box will not make up for the sub fee revenue they are not earning on it.


----------



## DrStrange

plowsterbabe said:


> Consider Lifetime to ensure that you will keep the basic scheduling and features that are on the system when you purchase it. You will receive bug fixes for that generation of software. If new software is created that provides awesome new functionality, make that an option to purchase for a reasonable upgrade price.


This has in fact been suggested numerous times before. The reason is that Tivo does not have the resources to provide support for every version of their software that any customer may have stopped at. It's hard enough getting CSRs up to speed on _one_ version of the Tivo software per hardware platform. Presenting them with the scripts required to handle questions about any software version will just induce seizures. Retrofitting critical bug fixes from new software onto every possible version of older software would require massive development and testing resources. This "common sense" as mtmra70 calls it doesn't sell here because it only works if you don't think it through.


----------



## TiVoPony

plowsterbabe said:


> This thread has just exploded, and I apologize if this was pointed out since I don't have time to review every post (it's coffee break time!)
> 
> I have a Series 2 box that has a Lifetime subscription on it, and I've had the box for 18 months. I truly enjoy the TiVo experience and it's made it worthwhile for me to continue having cable, which I was on the verge of canceling before I got my TiVo.
> 
> One thing that I've always wondered, though...if Lifetime subscribers are a financial "burden" on TiVo, why isn't a system made that's somewhat analogous to how computer operating systems are upgraded? Consider Lifetime to ensure that you will keep the basic scheduling and features that are on the system when you purchase it. You will receive bug fixes for that generation of software. If new software is created that provides awesome new functionality, make that an option to purchase for a reasonable upgrade price. This would be mutually beneficial--provide an incentive for TiVo to create and develop new features that I find compelling enough to upgrade for as well as provide for additional revenue off of Lifetime subscribers.
> 
> To me, this type of model makes sense. I have a Mac that happily runs 10.3. I can pay the upgrade to 10.4 if I want to, but on that particular machine, there's no pressing need.


This thought has come up on the forum in the past.

There are some issues that aren't obvious on first blush....someone has to put the infrastructure & policies in place to make this offer available. Time & resources. A system would have to be put in place to provision upgrades on demand. Time & resources. Customer support would have to support multiple service releases ad infinitum. Time & resources. The number of new releases we'd need to generate and qual doubles - one for new features & any bug fixes, another just for bug fixes for non-upgraded customers. Time & resources. That's off the top of my head.

But we could charge non-upgrade people for support, and use that money to fund the whole thing. Time, resources, and risk.

There's a long list of things we're spending our time & resources on. Creating opportunities for customers to hang out on old code isn't one of them.

A creative idea, but one that diverts our attention off of much more important issues.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> It is four years from a financial statement perspective, if I understand your question.
> 
> However, its *up to 11 years * at $299 for Lifetime... explanation


Ridiculous. Pure silliness. For all accounting purposes, they are finished adding revenue to the books from subscription standpoint after 4 years.

Once again, your 2$ figure doesn't include so many things that it's pointless to hang your argument on that.

J


----------



## mtmra70

DrStrange said:


> This has in fact been suggested numerous times before. The reason is that Tivo does not have the resources to provide support for every version of their software that any customer may have stopped at. It's hard enough getting CSRs up to speed on _one_ version of the Tivo software per hardware platform. Presenting them with the scripts required to handle questions about any software version will just induce seizures. Retrofitting critical bug fixes from new software onto every possible version of older software would require massive development and testing resources. This "common sense" as mtmra70 calls it doesn't sell here because it only works if you don't think it through.


They dont need to continue to provide support for old versions. Microsoft eventually stops patching old versions of windows, TiVo would just stop support versions quicker. And by versions, I mean 4.x, not revisions such as X.3 or X.4.


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> So, given that decisions 1 and 2 are now independent (lifetime is gone, with good reason and monthly schemes exist), does current scheme make sense? That's your question and my long-winded shorthand answer is NO.
> 
> Too confusing, too sleazy, too strange. [snip]
> 
> I still see distribution and marketing as two big black holes. Tivo advertising has consistently stunk. It has cost tens of millions and done little. Comcast should help that too.
> 
> Comcast, btw, from the call, is on track for "year end 2006" or something akin. Seems like a delay. Can't remember.
> _ITV


 I agree with you on the above portion of your answer.

One issue I have with the new model is for a new customer, I can't recommend the current S2 is going to be what they want more than 2 years out from today. The cheapest 2 year deal averages $15.37/mo IF you pay all up front. So the decision is one based on value to the person over $15.37/mo. Then they have to add the risk of hardware failure, or pay insurance to TiVo for what, at least $3/mo?


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## classicsat

I'd redefine Lifetime to be a Series 1/DirecTV DVR level service, being just guide data and software updates, disabling HMO and things unless a montly fee is paid, this all after two years have passed of Lifetime service, plus have a Lifetime account trasnfer fee.


----------



## HDTiVo

classicsat said:


> Apparently not enough though to makeit worth it for them to keep Lifetime on.


You are buying TiVo, Inc.'s story lock, stock and barrell.


----------



## TiVoPony

interactiveTV said:


> Comcast, btw, from the call, is on track for "year end 2006" or something akin. Seems like a delay. Can't remember.
> 
> _ITV


Nope, no delay. Comcast is on track for the second half of 2006. Same as we've been saying all along.

And someone earlier asked about a Comcast demo at CES. Yes, there was one, but not for the general public. TiVo and Comcast hosted an invite-only analyst meeting during the show. That's why we closed the booth a bit early one night. 

Pony


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Once again, your 2$ figure doesn't include so many things that it's pointless to hang your argument on that.
> 
> J


Once again, it does include everything appropriate. I have given the numbers and the details of the math behind it in my earlier posts. Please have the courtesy to do the kind of detailed work and give the kind of detailed explanations that I have already done rather than saying nothing more than 'No it isn't, your numbers are wrong.'

I would also direct you to TiVo's financials from Q1 and Q2 of FY06 for examples of how they were already capable of being at or near break-even, in addition to how I showed that it takes only 1.7M SA subs (vs 1.5M today) to be break-even on a full fiscal year basis AND *support growth and patent litigation.*


----------



## lajohn27

HD:

If you want me to concede that you can construe numbers to match your argument. Congratulations, I concede.

If you want me to believe that the TOTAL cost of servicing a TIVO per month is just over 2$ - I don't. 

Especially when you fact in customer support costs, servers, bandwidth, the TIVOs that are still calling in using the UUNet dial in network, people to maintain all of the above, marketing, etc. Don't buy it. And you've explicitly excluded the SAC.

You can't exclude the portions of the company that don't fit your argument. You carefully say it includes everything appropriate. That's cute. Since subscription revenue is by far the main source of revenue for TIVO, the cost of servicing a TIVO monthly has to include everything - end of sentence.

You're very confident that you know how to better manage this company than the guys doing it - I can't say that I agree with their methods right now either - but your view is just too simplistic to be realized.


----------



## classicsat

stevenschulman said:


> I have been a typical TiVo fanatic up to this point. I have an S1 and two S2s with lifefime on all of them. I have convinced many friends to get TiVos, my son, his in-laws, etc.
> 
> True or not, TiVo seems to me to be getting greedy. I don't like dealing with greedy companies. I don't see why their incremental monthly expense to support lifetime subscriptions should be more than pennies. I would think that TiVo would be selling the statistics they collect for significant profit, and numbers from lifetime subscribers should be worth a premium, since these are confirmed television watchers. I have never begrudged them making money off of this information, but, as I said, they now just seem greedy.


It's not about expense, it is about revenue. Past the break even point, they have no subscription revenue to show for the expense of servicing Lifetime boxes.

TiVo isn't getting greedy, they are just eliminating a losing proposition.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> 1. Especially when you fact in customer support costs, servers, bandwidth, the TIVOs that are still calling in using the UUNet dial in network, people to maintain all of the above, marketing, etc. Don't buy it. And you've explicitly excluded the SAC.
> 
> 2. You can't exclude the portions of the company that don't fit your argument. You carefully say it includes everything appropriate. That's cute. Since subscription revenue is by far the main source of revenue for TIVO, the cost of servicing a TIVO monthly has to include everything - end of sentence.
> 
> 3. You're very confident that you know how to better manage this company than the guys doing it - I can't say that I agree with their methods right now either - but your view is just too simplistic to be realized.


1. I have tried in the past to use the assumption that other costs, ie. R&D and SG&A contained Service expenses. I can't find any evidence of that. I am more than willing to assume there is some. If I give $.25/mo to that its over $3.5M for FY06. Not chump change in terms of granting the assumption, by any means.

All that will do is shift my breakeven assumption up a modest amount; like 50K more subs.

2. I don't exclude the portions that don't fit my arguement. I say exactly how many more SA subs it is going to take to get to breakeven, including costs for further growth(SAC) and patent litigation.

3. I don't know that I could actually personally _run_ the company better myself. I have some ideas, and the folks there haven't distinguished themselves over the years.


----------



## shady

In general, I'm not that unhappy with the new pricing, except for one thing

This is from Stephen's "Summary of new pricing announcements"


> if you purchase the bundle with $469 prepaid (which includes 3 years of service), after 36 months you will start being billed $16.95 per month.


If you pre-pay, then TiVo should not take the $16.95 from your credit card at the end, They should take the $12.95. In my opinion, taking the extra $4 per month unless you call is underhanded.


----------



## DrStrange

mtmra70 said:


> They dont need to continue to provide support for old versions. Microsoft eventually stops patching old versions of windows, TiVo would just stop support versions quicker. And by versions, I mean 4.x, not revisions such as X.3 or X.4.


Yes they would. Just like Microsoft, they wouldn't be able to stop support for 3.x as soon as 4.x came out, there'd have to continue to support older versions for some period of time after new versions came out or they'd face PR problems. If a Windows customer doesn't like MS policies MS can essentially say "tough, what are you gonna do, get Linux? A Mac? HA!" Unless you have the luxury of never needing to deal with anybody elses Windows-software-produced/controlled files or resources, you need Windows. Tivo has no such stranglehold on TV viewers. Changing DVR brands is relatively easy and cheap. Make people pay for major Tivo software updates - which have been much more frequent than MS updates - and you risk losing people to rented cable DVRs or others that will be all too happy to give _their_ customers free software updates.


----------



## DrStrange

shady said:


> If you pre-pay, then TiVo should not take the $16.95 from your credit card at the end, They should take the $12.95. In my opinion, taking the extra $4 per month unless you call is underhanded.


Yeah, that's pretty sleazy. Even if you don't prepay Tivo should automatically switch to the lower monthly rate at the end of the commitment period. Knowing the customer is eligible for the lower rate but not giving it to them is a pretty dirty tactic.


----------



## cwoody222

I disagree. Well, party. While maybe partly a "dirty" tactic, it's not unusual at all.

I can't think of one single company that automaticaly lowers your subscription fee if they suddenly have a new offer that you qualify for.

If you're happily paying rate X there's no way any company is going to automatically bump you down to rate Y if it's lower unless you call and ask (and qualify).


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> I don't know that I could actually personally _run_ the company better myself. I have some ideas, and the folks there haven't distinguished themselves over the years.


In terms of executive suite employeess..... Now THERE is something we can agree on !


----------



## DevilDogs

Ok, I'm still confused on some things. I'm not sure if these have been answered, but I have a couple questions.

1. I have a S1 with lifetime. If my S1 goes belly up, it was my understanding my service could be transferred. Is this still the case?

2. If I decide to buy a S2 or S3 (without a commitment) in addition to my S1 with lifetime, will the MSD apply, or is it available only if you're paying a monthly fee?

I have DirecTV with a S2DTivo, and was looking at options. It just looks like Tivo has limited my options. I was hoping Tivo might do something for us DirecTV folks, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.


----------



## istvo4me

Okay, I'm all confused. I was planning on getting TiVo pretty soon but because of these new changes, I'm a little hesitant. This is the way I see it:

Option 1: 
Buy Box from CompUSA = $29.99
Service Only Pricing: $12.95 x 1 Year = $155.40
TOTAL = $185.39

Option 2:
Bundled Pricing: $19.95 x 1 Year = $239.40

Option 3:
Bundled Pricing: Box and Service for 1 Year = $224.00

Now tell me, why would I go for the new pricing structure (Option 2 and 3) as I'm only looking 1 year ahead? Am I missing something here? Isn't Option 1 still the best? 

Stephen/Pony can someone clarify to help me make a decision?

Thanks.


----------



## SullyND

istvo4me said:


> Now tell me, why would I go for the new pricing structure (Option 2 and 3) as I'm only looking 1 year ahead? Am I missing something here? Isn't Option 1 still the best?
> 
> Stephen/Pony can someone clarify to help me make a decision?
> 
> Thanks.


You're assuming you will still be able to get a box at Compusa for $29.99 once the bundled services roll out. I believe the bundling is intended to replace, or at least reduce, the rebates that get the box down so low.


----------



## HDTiVo

Responses to Summary of TiVo's new pricing announcements

This IS a discussion thread. If you have comments or opinions or general questions, please feel free to post in this thread.

This is also a philosophy thread. It's fine to post about why TiVo is doing things or how it affects TiVo's financial well-being or its market position or anything like that.

Summary of TiVo's new pricing announcements


----------



## HDTiVo

> Everything else, including existing subscriptions, is unchanged.


Some believe that next week rebates will change and hardware costs will therefore rise.


----------



## istvo4me

SullyND said:


> You're assuming you will still be able to get a box at Compusa for $29.99 once the bundled services roll out. I believe the bundling is intended to replace, or at least reduce, the rebates that get the box down so low.


I see. So it could be that the price at the retailers will change according to the new bundled service.

Which would then mean that all the options that a person will have will be more expensive.


----------



## Billy66

They're holding onto the bunk that it isn't a price increase and they are right that it isn't an increase in service price. It is however an increase in the overall cost of ownership. Sure the hardware has been subsidized by rebates that "could always go away", but when you constantly and consistently offer them for 5 years and then don't, it's a price increase. The previous actions set the market expectations.

I appreciate Pony and Steven standing up and making posts, but clinging to the "it's not an increase" mantra makes them sound like politicians. They both know damn well it costs more to have TiVo next week than it does today.


----------



## DancnDude

istvo4me said:


> Option 1:
> Buy Box from CompUSA = $29.99
> Service Only Pricing: $12.95 x 1 Year = $155.40
> TOTAL = $185.39
> 
> Now tell me, why would I go for the new pricing structure (Option 2 and 3) as I'm only looking 1 year ahead? Am I missing something here? Isn't Option 1 still the best?


But the CompUSA deal includes a mail-in-rebate. You pay $199.99 upfront but get $170 back in rebates. A lot of people don't like rebates at all and going forward TiVo might not be offering rebates.


----------



## DrStrange

cwoody222 said:


> I can't think of one single company that automaticaly lowers your subscription fee if they suddenly have a new offer that you qualify for.


But the lower price isn't a "new" offer, it's the standard rate for non-committed Tivos. When you're no longer under the contract that required the higher rate, you shouldn't be charged the higher rate. After you've paid off a loan should your creditor continue to bill you (or automatically debit, if you've set it up) until you ask them to stop?



> If you're happily paying rate X there's no way any company is going to automatically bump you down to rate Y if it's lower unless you call and ask (and qualify).


Seriously. Why would anyone be "happy" paying more than they're required to in exchange for nothing? If they continue to pay it it's an oversight on their part and it's just underhanded for Tivo to take advantage of that.


----------



## cwoody222

DevilDogs said:


> Ok, I'm still confused on some things. I'm not sure if these have been answered, but I have a couple questions.
> 
> 1. I have a S1 with lifetime. If my S1 goes belly up, it was my understanding my service could be transferred. Is this still the case?
> 
> 2. If I decide to buy a S2 or S3 (without a commitment) in addition to my S1 with lifetime, will the MSD apply, or is it available only if you're paying a monthly fee?
> 
> I have DirecTV with a S2DTivo, and was looking at options. It just looks like Tivo has limited my options. I was hoping Tivo might do something for us DirecTV folks, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.


1. I don't think that was EVER the case. Unless your S1 is still under warranty (it's not) or you bought it before the grandfather date in 2000 in which case you can transfer it to any other unit for any other reason - ONE TIME. Otherwise, if your unit goes belly up, you're out the lifetime fee; sorry.

2) I don't think there IS an option now with a commitment. Even buying from retail and paying $12.95 now (and has for a little while) required a 1-year commitment. At least I think so.

Your S1 with lifetime should be a 'qualifier unit' so if you buy at retail that retail unit should be $6.95/mo.

If you buy from tivo.com, that unit won't qualify to get $6.95/mo pricing until after the commitment period is over (whether it be 1 or 2 or 3 years).


----------



## Rottluver

DevilDogs said:


> Ok, I'm still confused on some things. I'm not sure if these have been answered, but I have a couple questions.
> 
> 1. I have a S1 with lifetime. If my S1 goes belly up, it was my understanding my service could be transferred. Is this still the case?
> 
> 2. If I decide to buy a S2 or S3 (without a commitment) in addition to my S1 with lifetime, will the MSD apply, or is it available only if you're paying a monthly fee?
> 
> I have DirecTV with a S2DTivo, and was looking at options. It just looks like Tivo has limited my options. I was hoping Tivo might do something for us DirecTV folks, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.


I am in the same boat more or less...I have 3 Series 1 DTV Tivo's and they are all doing great......BUT.......eventually someday that will all change. Once they die I am screwed basically, aren't I?

I have decided that once they die I want to get a new HD TV and obviously will need an HD DTV-compatible DVR of some sort......I am thinking that Tivo will NOT get my business if I cannot get the Lifetime subscription anymore. DTV costs me enough each month and one of the BIGGEST selling points for me to get Tivo was the lifetime subscription.


----------



## cwoody222

DrStrange said:


> But the lower price isn't a "new" offer, it's the standard rate for non-committed Tivos. When you're no longer under the contract that required the higher rate, you shouldn't be charged the higher rate. After you've paid off a loan should your creditor continue to bill you (or automatically debit, if you've set it up) until you ask them to stop?
> 
> Seriously. Why would anyone be "happy" paying more than they're required to in exchange for nothing? If they continue to pay it it's an oversight on their part and it's just underhanded for Tivo to take advantage of that.


Putting it that way, you do have a point.

The "extra" fee is really you leasing the box. Once the term is up you now own that box and therefore they shouldn't be charging you for it.

You've convinced me


----------



## HDTiVo

Dan203 said:


> Will TiVo and tivo.com only be selling bundles? Or will they continue to sell the boxes independently to be used with standard monthly service? The only reason I ask is because finding a TiVo in stock at a retail location has historically been hit and miss.


You know, TiVo has not even mentioned their retail partners by name in all this as far as I've seen. You would think that when they talk about bring your own hardware, they'd say 'which you can get at one of our fine retail partners which includes ...'



AllAboutJeeps said:


> I used to be able to tell people, don't worry, TiVo loves it's customers and will take care of you. Unfortunately this trend has been in the works for a while, and it will take quite a bit to change my feelings.
> 
> I wish you the best TiVo, but you won't get any 'new' money from me. While I will keep paying my $6.95 MSD for my 2nd TiVo till it dies, when it comes time to replace TiVo, it will prob be with ...


Well stated.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> In terms of executive suite employeess..... Now THERE is something we can agree on !


And I thought you were tight buddies with Tom Rogers and the PTC guy.

Oh, wait, Rogers hasn't been on long enough to taint. But he's got a lot of hard work, doesn't he?


----------



## lajohn27

As I understand it - and I hate to be muddying the waters - but ..

When you call in for the lower 12.95 rate.. you are in essence agreeing to a new 12 month term. If you do not wish to have a term at the end of your contract, you stay at the higher rate.

Hence the reasoning about the call in.

J


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> And I thought you were tight buddies with Tom Rogers and the PTC guy.
> 
> Oh, wait, Rogers hasn't been on long enough to taint. But he's got a lot of hard work, doesn't he?


I never liked Rogers. And while I liked Yukovitz, he was the wrong man for the job. Yudkovitz would have been too indecisive.

I think Rogers is the wrong guy too. For the complete opposite reason, once he has an idea in his head - forget any data you have to oppose him - he won't listen. Kinda like the president you guys elected down there. You know, "Screw the facts, do what I want!"

Rogers has a hard nose style that always rubbed me the wrong when I worked for him. He was actually 25% of the reason I quit. Whatever, obviously it works for him.. he keeps moving up in the world.

As for PTC guy - he is genuinely one of the least offensive nicest guys I've ever met - so I really don't think their agenda is the same as it used to be.

J


----------



## jimmymac

Bimwad said:


> But to me, a bigger mistake was the implementation of the minimum 1-year contract, which remains even with the new scheme(?). Agreeing to a commitment usually entails some sort of discount, but none was given even after the requirement came into effect. No carrot in return for the stick..


For me this is the biggest issue. I remember reading that Tivo's churn rate was something to be envied. I really don't get why they feel the need to lock customers in with contracts in situations where there is no discount being given.

Perhaps it's because I lost my job last year and made an unexpected move and got nailed by several companies I was dealing with when I canceled service with contracts and I'm still pissed off about it, but I've decided I'm not doing contracts any more. I went with cable after I moved instead of satelite because there's no contact with cable. My contract with my cell phone expired long ago. I'm still not working and know that if I have to I can cancel these services without penalty since they're all not really necessary. The same goes for Tivo. I did the month to month because I didn't want to invest the money in lifetime five years ago. If things get to the point where I have to pull the plug on my Tivo, I won't come back. I let my 2nd Tivo go and it won't ever be reactivated. While I totally love the service, Tivo's recent policy changes really make me wonder.


----------



## Trunks4191

This is totally sad. I am scrambling now to get the damn on year subscription. Just last week I talked to a few friends of mine who wanted to get a tivo. But now, they don't want to get it. 

Thanks Tivo.


----------



## HDTiVo

DrStrange said:


> But the lower price isn't a "new" offer, it's the standard rate for non-committed Tivos. When you're no longer under the contract that required the higher rate, you shouldn't be charged the higher rate.


I think this is right...

The post N year contract rate 16.95-19.95 is a NON COMMITED rate. The $12.95 is a one year COMMITED RATE. Maybe that explains the "logic" ???? :down:


----------



## Stu_Bee

Billy66 said:


> They both know damn well it costs more to have TiVo next week than it does today.


This statement implies that a person already has a Tivo, in which case the cost will be the same. Correct?

I assume you really mean for someone purchasing a new Tivo, compared to if they had purchased it previously with a rebate?


----------



## Billy66

Actually I mean the opposite. If you already own your TiVo, your cost of service will remain the same. If you buy it and have service only, the cost of that service is the same, but, there will be no rebate so your cost of ownership will go up by that amount.

I won't redo the math here, but of the 3 new plans, it was shown that the one year plan is a break even for cost of ownership and the other two are increases. So in most situations for someone wanting a new box, their cost of ownership of that box and necessary service has increased.


----------



## murgatroyd

If anyone is still counting --

I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!" 

I understand that Product Lifetime was a bad deal for TiVo, Inc. -- but if the current deal wasn't working out, why not increase the price of Product Lifetime?

Note this offer from the science fiction semi-prozine LOCUS:



>  Lifetime subscriptions are available at ten times the one-year rate.


Note with their pricing model, as the montly subscription rate goes up, the cost of the Lifetime subscription goes up also -- but as the monthly subscription goes up, the cost of the Lifetime subscription becomes a better and better deal.

Obviously with LOCUS it pays to have a bigger subscriber base, because with more subscribers and a larger print run, they can take advantage of the economy of scale at the printing plant, and offer a bigger advertising base to their advertisers, and since the Lifetime Subscription costs so much, fewer people probably take advantage of it. However, it is there.

Jan


----------



## mtmra70

DrStrange said:


> Yes they would. Just like Microsoft, they wouldn't be able to stop support for 3.x as soon as 4.x came out, there'd have to continue to support older versions for some period of time after new versions came out or they'd face PR problems. If a Windows customer doesn't like MS policies MS can essentially say "tough, what are you gonna do, get Linux? A Mac? HA!" Unless you have the luxury of never needing to deal with anybody elses Windows-software-produced/controlled files or resources, you need Windows. Tivo has no such stranglehold on TV viewers. Changing DVR brands is relatively easy and cheap. Make people pay for major Tivo software updates - which have been much more frequent than MS updates - and you risk losing people to rented cable DVRs or others that will be all too happy to give _their_ customers free software updates.


I'm not saying they stop supporting version X when X+1 comes out. They continue to support it for a predefined period of time, kind of like what they do now. They no longer support the S1 TiVo (correct me if I am wrong), but they do continue to work and that monthly fee that people pay for a S1 is huge profit for TiVo.

Say a $300 lifetime got you 2 years of guarenteed updates. That would be $12.50/month in TiVo's pocket. Sure, its a touch less, but they did get a chunk of change up front.

Now, TiVo could still support the old models with new software versions (like they do now), but if you are out of your 2 year plan and want a new software version or HMO feature, you have to pay a small fee (say $30).

Now I know the concern of the access fees and such will be brought up, but if you think about it, the fee that is being charged to the other people should easily offset the cost of the lifetime people. Plus the upgrade fees could easily cover some of the access fees.

But if you think about it, from a software support standpoint, nothing is changing.


----------



## cwerdna

> Originally Posted by cwerdna
> I still see the 40 hour refurbs at http://www.tivo.com/2.0.1.asp. With this new scheme does "Total cost of 12-month TiVo® service ($155.40) can be applied towards service upgrade to TiVo® product lifetime service ($299) at time of activation." still apply assuming we upgrade to lifetime before the cutoff next Wednesday 3/15/06?





TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Yes, but to get Product Lifetime you have to activate on or before 3/15 and you have to have the unit's TiVo Service Number, so act quickly.


I just tried calling 877-BUY-TIVO and they seemed a little confused. They thought lifetime was going away on Monday. I also expressed by concern as to when it might arrive and they claimed their supervisor told them that Tivo would still have to honor lifetime because it would have been ordered today, before the cutoff.

It seems to me that since I can only by 12 month, the option to upgrade to lifetime will just vanish on Wednesday, so if it doesn't show up by then, I'm SOL for lifetime. Unfortunately, getting the fastest shipping is ~$40.


----------



## lajohn27

murgatroyd said:


> I understand that Product Lifetime was a bad deal for TiVo, Inc. -- but if the current deal wasn't working out, why not increase the price of Product Lifetime?
> 
> Note this offer from the science fiction semi-prozine LOCUS:
> 
> Note with their pricing model, as the montly subscription rate goes up, the cost of the Lifetime subscription goes up also -- but as the monthly subscription goes up, the cost of the Lifetime subscription becomes a better and better deal.


So the annual price of TIVO is 155.40. Are you willing to pay 1554$ for lifetime service???


----------



## murgatroyd

mtmra70 said:


> I'm not saying they stop supporting version X when X+1 comes out. They continue to support it for a predefined period of time, kind of like what they do now. They no longer support the S1 TiVo (correct me if I am wrong), but they do continue to work and that monthly fee that people pay for a S1 is huge profit for TiVo.


I don't think the situation with TiVo is comparable to Microsoft.

It is true that S1 users don't have many of the software features that the S2 boxes have, but our POTS (plain old TiVo service) is working just fine, thank you. Maybe I don't get maintenence upgrades, but on the other hand, they aren't shoving new features down my throat which break my setup.

The Microsoft way would be to implement some new thing on the server side which would make it impossible for people with S1s to call in even for our ordinary TiVo service, or to insist on everyone having the same software base, no matter what. "Oh, your machine is too small and too slow to run this software? Too bad!" That's the Microsoft way.

Jan


----------



## HDTiVo

Billy66 said:


> I won't redo the math here,


Here is what it would cost me today to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @ $70 after rebate: $280
Lifetime Service on 1 TiVo $299
----
Upfront Cost $579

Each year service ([email protected]$6.95/mo) $250.20

Here is what it would cost me next week to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @$224 first year:	$896

Service: $0 first year, then ($12.95+3*$6.95)*12 = $405.60

................................................Old Price....New Price..............Difference
1st Year Total............................$829.20......896.00...................66.80
2nd Year Total............................$1079.40....1301.60...................222.20
3rd Year Total............................$1329.60....1707.20...................377.60
4th...........................................$1579.80...2112.80	..................533.00
5th...........................................$1829.00...2518.40	..................688.40
6th...........................................$2079.20...2924.00	..................843.80
7th...........................................$2329.40...3329.60	................999.20
8th...........................................$2579.60...3735.20	................1154.60
9th...........................................$2829.80...4140.80	................1310.00

*Edited to reflect $70 price for 80hr unit.*


----------



## UGADawginMD

For some time, customers of the leading digital video recorder technology and service provider have been able to pay a $299 flat fee for lifetime TiVo service. But the Alviso, Calif., company said it plans to eliminate that option as of next week.

"Clearly, it's something that's had some popularity with our subscriber base," said Todd Juenger, TiVo's vice president of strategic planning.

"We understand it's a great value, but in balancing trying to provide customers with great value and our own business interests, we think it was too far in favor of good value to make sense for us financially," Juenger said.


----------



## davezatz

It does look like prices are going up for new customers. It also looks like TiVo is banking on casual customers (as opposed to those of us in the forum) to continue on at higher monthly rates without realizing they could call in for whatever the (lower) prevailing rate is.


----------



## mtmra70

murgatroyd said:


> I don't think the situation with TiVo is comparable to Microsoft.
> 
> It is true that S1 users don't have many of the software features that the S2 boxes have, but our POTS (plain old TiVo service) is working just fine, thank you. Maybe I don't get maintenence upgrades, but on the other hand, they aren't shoving new features down my throat which break my setup.
> 
> The Microsoft way would be to implement some new thing on the server side which would make it impossible for people with S1s to call in even for our ordinary TiVo service, or to insist on everyone having the same software base, no matter what. "Oh, your machine is too small and too slow to run this software? Too bad!" That's the Microsoft way.
> 
> Jan


Maybe you misunderstood me, but what I meant about the MS way was to stop offering software updates, not the actual service. Win95 systems still operate as normal (just like S1 units still get guide data and work) however MS no longer patches the OS (similar to how TiVo no longer works on the S1 software).

What I am suggesting is what they do already, but offer lifetime in return for a predefined cutoff date for the software upgrades (not affecting the guide data part) with the option of spending more money to get new updates, if TiVo creates them.

As I understand it, lifetime is being taken away due to the loss of money to TiVo for supporting it. I highly doubt the guide data is a major factor.


----------



## lajohn27

It's not just the guide data, but the server load, the customer service calls, the bandwidth, and on and on and on. There is a COST to servicing those boxes and in the long run, eventually the costs overtake the money you initially paid to TIVO - even accounting for the fact that they've had the use of that money for x period of time.

Introducing selective software upgrades to the situation just adds costs... instead of reducing...


----------



## HDTiVo

> About the commitment period:
> If you cancel before the end of the commitment term, you will be charged the remaining balance on your service commitment, up to $200. You get to keep the box.


Why cancel and not just give the box to someone else?



> For prepaid bundles of box and service, there is no early termination fee but after the 30-day money-back guarantee period, no refund will be given.


Excellent, well thought out, considering there is no way to actually 'cancel' something you already bought and paid for fully after a money-back guarantee period. Can someone get a few bucks back if they ship TiVo the box, or does TiVo not want it?


----------



## dswallow

lajohn27 said:


> It's not just the guide data, but the server load, the customer service calls, the bandwidth, and on and on and on. There is a COST to servicing those boxes and in the long run, eventually the costs overtake the money you initially paid to TIVO - even accounting for the fact that they've had the use of that money for x period of time.
> 
> Introducing selective software upgrades to the situation just adds costs... instead of reducing...


Adding selective upgrades provides additional revenue that would otherwise never be earned on the lifetime-subscribed box.

Yes there are other costs that can be attributed to servicing the subscriber, but there's also the intangibles of that subscriber still being a potential revenue source in the future due to positive experiences with their current box/subscription; there's the intangible of word-of-mouth recommendations that customer might have made; and much of the infrastructure cost really isn't significantly higher because of the additional lifetime subscribers -- it'd have to be there anyway; it's just an accounting method to say it costs $X/subscriber and thus they "lose" $X per lifetime subscriber every year after some length of subscription.

All TiVo need do is take the average box lifetime and set the lifetime price to match what'd be paid for that amount of time. THey might occasionally have customers they service longer than that average, but they'll have an equal number who stopped getting serviced prior to that average offsetting it; the end result ius the customer has an option and TiVo has not affected their average subscriber income at all.


----------



## Frankenstien

cwerdna said:


> I just tried calling 877-BUY-TIVO and they seemed a little confused. They thought lifetime was going away on Monday. I also expressed by concern as to when it might arrive and they claimed their supervisor told them that Tivo would still have to honor lifetime because it would have been ordered today, before the cutoff.


I told a friend who had been thinking about getting TiVo that the lifetime service was going away. He called and ordered the 80 hour with 1 year service and was told the same thing as you.

The purchase date was the key, as long as it was purchased before the 15th he could upgarde to lifetime. I do think that he was given a 30 day window after the 15th. So, if he didn't upgrade by April 14th, then he wouldn't be able to.


----------



## Stu_Bee

Billy66 said:


> Actually I mean the opposite. If you already own your TiVo, your cost of service will remain the same. If you buy it and have service only, the cost of that service is the same, but, there will be no rebate so your cost of ownership will go up by that amount.


Heh..that's what I thought I said.


----------



## xnevergiveinx

it looks like my tivo is going to arrive tomorrow through fedex, at least thats what tracking estimates (fedex delivers on saturdays?...it's in texas and i'm in ohio...)

so, when i get it, i'll go right on the phone, upgrade to lifetime, which will cost me $150 or so more. then i have to make sure my current tivo, my other series 2 will still be on multi box discount.
this thread really blew up! it hurts my brain to read it all...


----------



## HDTiVo

> The existing monthly fee of $12.95 with a one-year commitment is unchanged.


That's great for now. But I have no idea what it will cost when my initial contract does come due in year(s)s hence. Unlike with the old Lifetime arrangement, future costs are 'on the come' as they say.

What do I do with a dead box that has X months left to go on a contract?


----------



## lajohn27

Doug:

Given that many lifetime series 1's have been going 7 years already.. what do you suggest the average lifetime of a box is?

At 5 years that means lifetime would cost 777$. Pretty hefty.

ANd if you think the outcry is bad over the loss of lifetime service, just try and introduce 'pay for software upgrades' .. 

Logistically that's a nightmare, eventually you'd be supporting some ridiculous number of versions and maintain code base for those versions.. vs right now.. just two.
J


----------



## bsvid

Originally Posted by bsvid
Perhaps the Tivo enthusiasts forum isn't the place to raise this question. How many Tivo users are like me? I cannot afford another monthly bill for any amount, not 19.95, 12.95 or 10.95. My cable bill is already almost 50. So how many people are like me and used my tax refund to buy their Tivo w/ lifetime. Maybe customers like me are not profitable



classicsat said:


> Then buy a prepaid TiVo if you want and are able to pay all at once.


Um...still not as good of a deal as the lifetime. The best they can do is 3 years. Again, Tivo has to do what they have to do. Many postings here talk about a threshold of what is Tivo worth. It is awesome, but not at any cost. As a business they must profit, but they will lose customers (like me) who are not profitable, and that is fine. Customers like me cannot help Tivo, so I got in just in time.

The question is can they pull in enough customers who are (profitable) with this new plan. No, the value ain't there with the new price, and Tivo as we all know it, as a service of its own, is done for in a relatively short frame of time. We may see it evolve with partnerships, takeover or whatever. Sorry, just a prediction, and I'd love to be wrong.


----------



## Scrith

murgatroyd said:


> I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"


Excellent point. I gave a TiVo to my parents with a lifetime subscription and they are very happy with it. I was considering giving one to my in-laws as a gift but now, with no lifetime subscription available, that option is gone...I would never give a gift that requires the recipient to pay a monthly service fee.

Getting rid of the lifetime subscription option is an incredibly stupid move, in my opinion. I've always said that they should just get rid of montly fees altogether and increase the price of the unit. Maybe there needs to be a Series 3.5 with some extra features that sells for something like $500 and includes lifetime service?


----------



## Crrink

DrStrange said:


> But the lower price isn't a "new" offer, it's the standard rate for non-committed Tivos. When you're no longer under the contract that required the higher rate, you shouldn't be charged the higher rate. After you've paid off a loan should your creditor continue to bill you (or automatically debit, if you've set it up) until you ask them to stop?
> 
> Seriously. Why would anyone be "happy" paying more than they're required to in exchange for nothing? If they continue to pay it it's an oversight on their part and it's just underhanded for Tivo to take advantage of that.


The only scenario I can think of is if the service only fee was increased past the point of your original service+lease fee. I don't know if TiVo would allow a customer to continue paying $16.95/mo after contract expiration if the service only fee had risen to, say, $19.95 a month, but if so they could at least maintain the air of fairness.

What are the odds of that happening? I'd say very low, but I suppose you never know.


----------



## dswallow

lajohn27 said:


> Doug:
> 
> Given that many lifetime series 1's have been going 7 years already.. what do you suggest the average lifetime of a box is?
> 
> At 5 years that means lifetime would cost 777$. Pretty hefty.


TiVo would know; and the cost of buying it certainly could be adjusted regularly as the average changes.

Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. But it remains available and represents an amount of money TiVo would reasonably get from everyone on average anyway.


----------



## dswallow

Scrith said:


> Excellent point. I gave a TiVo to my parents with a lifetime subscription and they are very happy with it. I was considering giving one to my in-laws as a gift but now, with no lifetime subscription available, that option is gone...I would never give a gift that requires the recipient to pay a monthly service fee.


Maybe TiVo just wants you to re-gift them with an annual prepaid subscription every year.


----------



## lajohn27

dswallow said:


> TiVo would know; and the cost of buying it certainly could be adjusted regularly as the average changes.
> 
> Nobody's forcing anyone to buy it. But it remains available and represents an amount of money TiVo would reasonably get from everyone on average anyway.


Few in this thread can argue that Lifetime was an incredibly good deal at $299... perhaps *too* good a deal.. so...

A terribly evil thought just crossed my mind ....

Plan For Lifetime Service:

- remove lifetime service and call it too costly

- people go nuts complaining

- bring it back at a much higher price

- everyone is so happy its back, they don't complain nearly as much about the price going up

Hey, I can dream right?


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> What do I do with a dead box that has X months left to go on a contract?


You pay the yet-to-be announced replacement fee, have boxes shipped in two directions, and wonder why the warranty is only 90 days.

Since the harddrive is what most frequently fails, it would be useful if they instituted a formatted-and-ready-to-go hard-drive replacement program and include some pictoral directions. If the person isn't comfortable with opening the box, they could take it to their certified Best Buy or Radio Shack repair shop.


----------



## HDTiVo

> If you cancel your service-only contract prior to the end of the commitment, you are subject to an early termination fee (currently $150) or the balance of your contract, whichever is less.


The maximum service only commitment cost is $155.40 for the year. Why would anyone terminate after the 30-day moneyback period when their money is taken for the service either way?


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> The maximum service only commitment cost is $155.40 for the year. Why would anyone terminate after the 30-day moneyback period when their money is taken for the service either way?


Because it will be rising past $155.40 some time soon?  And the whole point of the commitment is so you don't cancel... it's a hassle for them and they're guaranteed to recoup some of the hardware costs. Perhaps they also hope a person will reconsider and realize the TiVo is very good at what it does.


----------



## timckelley

murgatroyd said:


> If anyone is still counting --
> 
> I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"


That's a good point. By eliminating lifetime, it's possible that fewer people will choose TiVo as a gift to give somebody. Maybe it would have been in TiVo's best interest to retain some sort of lifetime option so that the gift givers might continue buying TiVos.


----------



## HDTiVo

dswallow said:


> All TiVo need do is take the average box lifetime and set the lifetime price to match what'd be paid for that amount of time. THey might occasionally have customers they service longer than that average, but they'll have an equal number who stopped getting serviced prior to that average offsetting it; the end result ius the customer has an option and TiVo has not affected their average subscriber income at all.


I figure the average 'box life' is going to be a lot less from 2006 forward than it was from say 2003 forward. Just based on obsolesence due to digital media trends.

So a Lifetime sub sold this year would have cost them less than ever...

Is TiVo saying 'look, we were just so frickin' insane the last several years and we didn't realize what we were doing all along?'


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Doug:
> 
> Given that many lifetime series 1's have been going 7 years already.. what do you suggest the average lifetime of a box is?
> 
> At 5 years that means lifetime would cost 777$. Pretty hefty.


The average lifetime of a box bought in 2006 is going to be less than 5 years because of what I said in my last post.

where does $777 come from?


----------



## interactiveTV

TiVoPony said:


> Nope, no delay. Comcast is on track for the second half of 2006. Same as we've been saying all along.


 I was unclear. The conference call referred to the Comcast box as "year end" (going by memory) which may or may not be the same as "second half." It seems to be a refinement of expectations.

Obviously, second half could mean July or August while those two months would not be a reasonable expectation for a "year end" comment.

Delay would be the wrong word, poor choice on my part. A refinement of expectations, I guess.

"Year end" would certainly be a subset of "second half" but they are far from being the same thing.



(sorry to digress this massive thread, btw).

_ITV


----------



## murgatroyd

mtmra70 said:


> Maybe you misunderstood me, but what I meant about the MS way was to stop offering software updates, not the actual service. Win95 systems still operate as normal (just like S1 units still get guide data and work) however MS no longer patches the OS (similar to how TiVo no longer works on the S1 software).
> 
> What I am suggesting is what they do already, but offer lifetime in return for a predefined cutoff date for the software upgrades (not affecting the guide data part) with the option of spending more money to get new updates, if TiVo creates them.
> 
> As I understand it, lifetime is being taken away due to the loss of money to TiVo for supporting it. I highly doubt the guide data is a major factor.


Maybe I didn't get what you were saying, but you misunderstood my point, too.

To me there is a big difference between "not getting new updates" and "the OS is not supported".

Practically speaking, even if nothing is broken on your Win95 system, there is only so long you can operate as normal. Even if you assume that you don't want to do anything more with your computer than you were doing before, too much stuff outside of the OS changes to make that possible.

New printers come out which don't have drivers for Win95, so if your printer breaks, you are hosed. Hard drive capacity outstrips the ability of the BIOS to handle it, and no hard drives of the size you need are available. Some software like browsers may require plug-ins, and ALSO require you to have the latest and greatest plugins, but they don't offer a plug-in which will work with Win95, and so on. So even though the basic software may work fine, any functionality which is associated with that plugin is lost.

Perhaps the real offenders are the third-party companies like Real Audio, for instance, whose website shoved an upgraded plug-in down my throat, after which the installer said "oops, this won't run on Win95, sorry!" But Microsoft has changed enough about the way Windows does things to make it very difficult for third-party companies to offer services to Win95 users.

With TiVo, I am not getting new software updates, it's true -- but TiVo, Inc. has not changed the format in which the Guide Data comes down from the servers, thus making my S1 inoperable. The actual service -- so far -- still works.

Jan


----------



## HDTiVo

I've finally found a somewhat easy way to show that TiVo could have reached profitability WITHOUT changing their pricing (Lifetime, monthly, MSD...)

In FY05 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $79.8M
In FY06 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $34.4M

Average SA Subscribers increase in FY06 by 450K over FY05.

The improvement in results - enterprise wide - was $45.4 with the addition of 450K subs at the OLD pricing.

Is there any reason not to conclude, based either on those numbers, or on my other presentations of numbers, that the remaining $34.4M "problem" could not be solved with another 450K subs?

For FY06 the Subs were 1.27M. Another 450K comes to 1.72M, which is roughly the number I derived using the more complex methodology many posts ago.

QED


----------



## DevilDogs

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> No need to call -- just use Manage My Account (http://www.tivo.com/manage/), and verify that you have a Series1 unit with Product Lifetime dated before January 20, 2000.


Why is the grandfather date January 20, 2000? I have a Tivo I activated in 2002. Does that mean I'm not grandfathered?


----------



## danieljanderson

lajohn27 said:


> Few in this thread can argue that Lifetime was an incredibly good deal at $299... perhaps *too* good a deal.. so...
> 
> A terribly evil thought just crossed my mind ....
> 
> Plan For Lifetime Service:
> 
> - remove lifetime service and call it too costly
> 
> - people go nuts complaining
> 
> - bring it back at a much higher price
> 
> - everyone is so happy its back, they don't complain nearly as much about the price going up
> 
> Hey, I can dream right?


NEW COKE!


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> The average lifetime of a box bought in 2006 is going to be less than 5 years because of what I said in my last post.
> 
> where does $777 come from?


Doug was suggesting to take the average box life.. and multiple the service out and that could be a profitable cost for lifetime.

I was suggesting that assuming a 5 year lifespan, that is exactly 777$. (155.40 x 5)

I was suggesting 5 years given that some boxes are well over 7 years old and still chugging along.


----------



## lajohn27

DevilDogs said:


> Why is the grandfather date January 20, 2000? I have a Tivo I activated in 2002. Does that mean I'm not grandfathered?


You are not grandfathered.

The 2000 date was because that was the point at which TIVO made it perfectly clear that lifetime meant the lifetime of the box.. not the lifetime of the human who purchased it.

J


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> The 2000 date was because that was the point at which TIVO made it perfectly clear that lifetime meant the lifetime of the box.. not the lifetime of the human who purchased it.


At the risk of piling on, TiVo, in its infinite infalibility, wrote their contract back in the beginning so it tied Lifetime to the Life of the person. 

*
History of Lifetime:

1. Until January 20, 2000: Your Life.
2. Until 3/15/06: Your box's Life.
3. After 3/15/06: Dead.*


----------



## Billy66

Stu_Bee said:


> Heh..that's what I thought I said.


I just re-read and it is exactly what you said. I'm sure I thought it was the opposite before. I'm getting old.


----------



## BobCamp1

DevilDogs said:


> Why is the grandfather date January 20, 2000? I have a Tivo I activated in 2002. Does that mean I'm not grandfathered?


Yes, anyone who activated their Tivo after Jan 20, 2000 has the lifetime subsciption permanently tied to to unit. When the unit dies, your subscription goes bye-bye. The date is that because Tivo didn't make it clear initially that lifetime was tied to the unit, not the person. When they did make it clear on January 21, 2000, people got angry. So Tivo got involved in a class-action lawsuit, and this was the settlement.

Of course, touting lifetime subscriptions or pay-to-lifetime subscriptions and then suddenly pulling that option wouldn't subject them to any class-action lawsuits. Especially since everyone seems to be thrilled with the new pricing plan.


----------



## HDTiVo

Explaining the call needed to move to $12.95:



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Hi Dan, the reasoning behind that is that we can't move you to $12.95 unless you give us a further one year commitment, and we don't want to do that to you without you telling us that's what you want. Instead, you have to confirm you want $12.95 per month and agree to a new one-year commitment. This is identical to what cell phone companies and other service providers do today.


I knew there was a good reason...they *can't* do it without a new one year commitment. 

edit:
:up: :up: :up: To Ops for _still _ having a sense of humor in the other thread.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Billy66 said:


> They're holding onto the bunk that it isn't a price increase and they are right that it isn't an increase in service price. It is however an increase in the overall cost of ownership. Sure the hardware has been subsidized by rebates that "could always go away", but when you constantly and consistently offer them for 5 years and then don't, it's a price increase. The previous actions set the market expectations.
> 
> I appreciate Pony and Steven standing up and making posts, but clinging to the "it's not an increase" mantra makes them sound like politicians. They both know damn well it costs more to have TiVo next week than it does today.


I know no such thing.

I do know that many of my friends and family who could not previously afford a box will soon be able to get an 80-hour unit for no upfront cost and a monthly fee that starts at $16.95.

So, sorry, Billy66, but I would strenuously object to your characterization of this as "bunk."

I can understand the points about overall costs going up, but hardware prices and total prices change all the time. For example, rebates have expired after the holiday season for most products from most manufactures for most of the history of rebates.

TiVo's total ownership price has changed dramatically over the past seven years, sometimes up, sometimes down, depending on the season.

You want to talk about total cost of ownership? In 1999 when we launched, a 30-hour unit was $999 and Product Lifetime was $199.

EDIT: I can actually spell the word "strenuously" if I want to.


----------



## TiVoStephen

First off, HDTiVo, for your total ownership math, please be sure you're comparing 40-hours to 40-hours or 80-hours to 80-hours. I think what you're doing currently is comparing 40-hour old to 80-hour new.



HDTiVo said:


> Why cancel and not just give the box to someone else?


You could do that unoffiically but since the box and service and commitment is in your name (and due to legal and accounting reasons we can't allow transfers of contracts from one customer to another mid-commitment), some customers might now want to do that.



> Excellent, well thought out, considering there is no way to actually 'cancel' something you already bought and paid for fully after a money-back guarantee period. Can someone get a few bucks back if they ship TiVo the box, or does TiVo not want it?


We do not have a process to receive back units for credit after 30 days, sorry.


----------



## TiVoStephen

HDTiVo said:


> :up: :up: :up: To Ops for _still _ having a sense of humor in the other thread.


And kudos to you for the same, sir. Seriously.


----------



## davezatz

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> You want to talk about total cost of ownership? In 1999 when we launched, a 30-hour unit was $999


I know... I wasn't able or willing to afford a TiVo until 2001 when I got a used one (15 hour?) off of ebay. I also remember when montly fees were raised from 9.95 to 12.95 and I was upset because I was using an antenna and internal tuner at the time - I thought cable subscribers should pay more than me since their guides were larger.  Now I blow $4.50 most weekdays at Starbucks... which makes my XM and TiVo subscriptions almost seem like bargains.


----------



## lajohn27

BobCamp1 said:


> Of course, touting lifetime subscriptions or pay-to-lifetime subscriptions and then suddenly pulling that option wouldn't subject them to any class-action lawsuits. Especially since everyone seems to be thrilled with the new pricing plan.


I'm presuming sarcasm there, but I fail to see how pulling the option to buy additional lifetime subscriptions while agreeing to maintain those already sold opens TIVO up to any possibilities of litigation.

J


----------



## Billy66

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> So, sorry, Billy66, but I would strenuously object to your characterization of this as "bunk."


Object as strenuously as you must. It's still a price increase. You controlled the cost of service and the cost of hardware via your subsidies which to date have been consistent if not constant. The history of rebates are one that shows them as temporary, that is not however the history of rebates for TiVos. That history is the opposite. It's yours and represents the bar that you will be compared to going forward.

You said yourself that hardware prices go up. Yes they do and this time it's you guys raising the hardware price (unbundled). That's a price increase isn't it? Call it what you want really. It's what the marketplace calls it that matters.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Billy66, we must agree to disagree. Today my friends would pay hundreds for an 80-hour unit. Next week they get it for nothing and pay as little as $16.95 per month for the service.


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> First off, HDTiVo, for your total ownership math, please be sure you're comparing 40-hours to 40-hours or 80-hours to 80-hours. I think what you're doing currently is comparing 40-hour old to 80-hour new.


I want to correct my post properly. Is the recent Post Rebate price at a place like BB or at TiVo, Inc. $69 instead of $50? I think I've seen the 40 @$29.99 PR.



> Originally Posted by HDTiVo
> Why cancel and not just give the box to someone else?
> 
> 
> 
> You could do that unoffiically but since the box and service and commitment is in your name (and due to legal and accounting reasons we can't allow transfers of contracts from one customer to another mid-commitment), some customers might now want to do that.
Click to expand...

Not going to be too many cases where canceling makes sense.


----------



## Billy66

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Billy66, we must agree to disagree. Today my friends would pay hundreds for an 80-hour unit. Next week they get it for nothing and pay as little as $16.95 per month for the service.


I guess your friends buy cars based on the payment the dealer can "get them into" 

Agree we shall...to disagree that is. 

Having said that, I was equally dissatisfied when you lowered prices as well. I was already in with a $599 14 hour unit. I can't be pleased you know.


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I can understand the points about overall costs going up,


Huge victory for the LITTLE GUYS here. Let's all be good winners on this point.


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> I want to correct my post properly. Is the recent Post Rebate price at a place like BB or at TiVo, Inc. $69 instead of $50?


Best Buy has the 80 hour online listed at $219.99 minus the $150 rebate:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...kuId=6654836&tab=6&productCategoryId=cat03021

BRAND: TIVO
MODEL: TCD540080
SKU: 6654836
REBATE: $150
OFFER DATE: 03/01/2006 TO 04/30/2006

I thought the $150 rebate expired this month, but I was wrong. So until at least 4/30 costs won't go up for folks who buy their own hardware and subscribe under the current $12.95 plan.

(Hmmm1... I notice Best Buy sell replacement remotes online. Did they always do that? If it's new will we also start seeing some TiVo adapters there?)

(Hmmm2... the rebate info from TiVo.com says: "Recorder must be purchased between 01/08/06 and 02/28/06, inclusive. Products purchased before or after these dates are not eligible for the rebate offer." Maybe they just didn't update the web page... http://www.tivo.com/2.1.1.0.asp)


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Billy66, we must agree to disagree. Today my friends would pay hundreds for an 80-hour unit. Next week they get it for nothing and pay as little as $16.95 per month for the service.


Hey wait up! Today they *can * pay hundreds for Lifetime...$369ish. Where have they been?



> You want to talk about total cost of ownership? In 1999 when we launched, a 30-hour unit was $999 and Product Lifetime was $199.


Well what has happened to hardware manufacturing costs and retail pricing for boxes that contain the types of parts a TiVo contains 1. Since 1999. 2. Since 2005?


----------



## ALooneyGuy

I think that TiVo is putting the final bullet in their collective brainpan with this monumental price increase. To me, the only advantage in owning a TiVo as opposed to using whatever Comcast, DirecTV, or DISH offers is that you can pay the whole thing upfront, own the unit, and never have to pay another penny to TiVo or any of the above. Eliminating the lifetime subscription effectively eliminates me as a customer. The monthly fee I pay DirecTV for my 2-tuner TiVo is already less than half of what I would have to pay TiVo for one tuner, and this is before TiVo's price increase.

TiVo didn't have a good plan for making money at the beginning, and now instead of collecting revenues from all of these companies who have basically stolen their technology, they're soaking it to the end-user. R.I.P. TiVo. I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 6 years with my standalone TiVo with lifetime subscription, and will continue to do so until someone buys the company or one or the other bites the dust.


----------



## Stainless Steele

So why not keep the lifetime available for those who want it? Maybe even raise it abit? I'm bummed that the lifetime is going away! I have purchased lifetime on all 6+ past owned Tivo's! In my mind this is upsetting going forward and anxiously awaiting the S3!


----------



## ALooneyGuy

Stainless Steele said:


> So why not keep the lifetime available for those who want it? Maybe even raise it abit? I'm bummed that the lifetime is going away! I have purchased lifetime on all 6+ past owned Tivo's! In my mind this is upsetting going forward and anxiously awaiting the S3!


Exactly! They think they can make more money by forcing you to keep paying but what is more likely is that folks will just turn to their cable/satellite provider for their digital recording needs.


----------



## lajohn27

Stainless.. Lifetime would probably have to double... at a minimum.. to be worthwhile for TIVO and even then...


----------



## davezatz

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> 80-hour unit for no upfront cost and a monthly fee that starts at $16.95


If 80 hour units are free with the service bundle commitment, is it safe to assume new 40 hour units will no longer be sold? Or sold un-bundled? Or will cheaper bundles show up? (I know you had mentioned no info would be provided on on S3 bundles now, but wonder about the other direction or burning models.)


----------



## dtreese

TiVo rebates haven't been constant. My wife got her 40 hr TiVo (now half mine, hehe) in 2003 for about $300, IIRC. Last year, I managed to swipe my 40 hr TiVo (now half hers,  ) From Circuit City for no cost after rebate. I couldn't believe I got away with that. I've seen prices for 40 hr. units bounce all over the place in the last few years. Now the 80 hr. units are super cheap. Next week, they'll be about $85 -- not the steal they've been recently, but not bad. Complaining about this is like complaining because Kroger had it's milk on sale for three weeks, but the sale ends tomorrow. Okay, it's not like that: it's like complaining because Kroger was giving away free TiVos, but the sale ends on Wednesday.


----------



## classicsat

Billy66 said:


> They're holding onto the bunk that it isn't a price increase and they are right that it isn't an increase in service price. It is however an increase in the overall cost of ownership.
> 
> They both know damn well it costs more to have TiVo next week than it does today.


Essentially yes, by virtue of the drop of rebates, if that is the case.
Without rebates, a Prepaid bundle comes across LESS than the cost of an after-rebate purchase plus primary normal service.


----------



## Billy66

dtreese said:


> TiVo rebates haven't been constant. My wife got her 40 hr TiVo (now half mine, hehe) in 2003 for about $300, IIRC. Last year, I managed to swipe my 40 hr TiVo (now half hers,  ) From Circuit City for no cost after rebate. I couldn't believe I got away with that. I've seen prices for 40 hr. units bounce all over the place in the last few years. Now the 80 hr. units are super cheap. Next week, they'll be about $85 -- not the steal they've been recently, but not bad. Complaining about this is like complaining because Kroger had it's milk on sale for three weeks, but the sale ends tomorrow. Okay, it's not like that: it's like complaining because Kroger was giving away free TiVos, but the sale ends on Wednesday.


I doubt there has been a stretch longer than 3 months in the last 5 years where TiVo hardware wasn't subsidized by rebates or discounts. That set the market expectation. Your wife must have hit one of those lulls.

If Kroeger had milk discounted for the last five years and it ended wednesday. People would complain because the price of milk increased.

I'm not complaining about it, I'm just recognizing it for what it is. An increase.


----------



## HDTiVo

_This is a corrected version of an earlier post, which has now also been edited_



Billy66 said:


> I won't redo the math here,


Here is what it would cost me today to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @ $70 after rebate: $280
Lifetime Service on 1 TiVo $299
----
Upfront Cost $579

Each year service ([email protected]$6.95/mo) $250.20

Here is what it would cost me next week to duplicate the setup I have now:

4 new SA TiVo's @$224 first year:	$896

Service: $0 first year, then ($12.95+3*$6.95)*12 = $405.60

................................................Old Price....New Price..............Difference
1st Year Total............................$829.20......896.00...................66.80
2nd Year Total............................$1079.40....1301.60...................222.20
3rd Year Total............................$1329.60....1707.20...................377.60
4th...........................................$1579.80...2112.80	..................533.00
5th...........................................$1829.00...2518.40	..................688.40
6th...........................................$2079.20...2924.00	..................843.80
7th...........................................$2329.40...3329.60	................999.20
8th...........................................$2579.60...3735.20	................1154.60
9th...........................................$2829.80...4140.80	................1310.00

*Edited to reflect $70 price for 80hr unit.*


----------



## classicsat

ALooneyGuy said:


> Exactly! They think they can make more money by forcing you to keep paying but what is more likely is that folks will just turn to their cable/satellite provider for their digital recording needs.


So be it, at least they won't be losing money on those people, by providing service to a box they are earning no revenue on..


----------



## classicsat

The bundles, for now, are for 80 hr units, and I believe that will be the lowest bundle you can get. 40 hr units will likely get get sold off unbundled.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Stainless.. Lifetime would probably have to double... at a minimum.. to be worthwhile for TIVO and even then...


"There he goes again..."

I have already PROVEN in multiple ways in your thread that Lifetime WAS PROFITABLE for TiVo as it was...

Repeating: Easy Way



HDTiVo said:


> I've finally found a somewhat easy way to show that TiVo could have reached profitability WITHOUT changing their pricing (Lifetime, monthly, MSD...)
> 
> In FY05 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $79.8M
> In FY06 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $34.4M
> 
> Average SA Subscribers increase in FY06 by 450K over FY05.
> 
> The improvement in results - enterprise wide - was $45.4 with the addition of 450K subs at the OLD pricing.
> 
> Is there any reason not to conclude, based either on those numbers, or on my other presentations of numbers, that the remaining $34.4M "problem" could not be solved with another 450K subs?
> 
> For FY06 the Subs were 1.27M. Another 450K comes to 1.72M, which is roughly the number I derived using the more complex methodology many posts ago.
> 
> QED


* Up To 11 Years*



HDTiVo said:


> Here's another way to look at Lifetime:
> 
> Let's say I somehow acquire *secondhand* an unused and unsubed S2. I call TiVo and say I want to sign up. I want to pay $299 today for Lifetime.
> 
> At TiVo's monthly cost of subscriber services ($2.25 in FY06, down from $2.99 in FY05) that $299 lasts TiVo 132 months (11 years!!!!) before they lose money on me, not counting the value to them of holding my money! AND not counting any other revenues TiVo might get from other sources because they have one more box subed in their universe.
> 
> How is this a bad deal or unprofitable for TiVo? I can't figure it out.


Detailed analysis



HDTiVo said:


> TiVo's old Pricing was Profitable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by TiVoOpsMgr
> We're no longer a scrappy startup, but we're still scrappy and we have to be a profitable company. Some of the same people criticizing us here in this thread for removing Product Lifetime also ding us in other threads for not being profitable. As Tom said in today's conference call, the new pricing goes a long way to making TiVo a more healthy and successful company.
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo's Financials
> I know TiVo's financials very well. TiVo makes money on subscribers at the old pricing levels, including the $299 Lifetime w/$69 for an 80hr box. Indeed on past earnings calls, when TiVo's all-in costs were higher, the Net Present Value of a subscriber was described as quite positive. So TiVo can't tell me, or the others in this Forum that TiVo needed one more dime per subscriber to make a profit.
> 
> TiVo's Profits per Subscriber
> On a twelve month basis, in FY05 it cost $2.99/mo to service a subscriber. That number FELL to $2.25/mo per sub in FY06. That's right, what it costs TiVo to provide service to a customer FELL $.74/mo this past year vs. last year. An 80hr with Lifetime for $368 up front cost maybe $160 for the box - TiVo's average cost of hardware sales per gross sub addition - plus $2.25/mo for service and falling. At a constant $2.25, TiVo still makes money up to 92+ months out on a subscriber/box. That doesn't count the fact TiVo had the $368 from day one and paid the $2.25/mo over 92 months.
> 
> TiVo's Break-even Subscriber Level for FY06
> In fact, TiVo made enough money per subscriber under the existing price regime, that if it had had an average of less than 450,000 more SA subs in FY06, the entire company would have broken even. And that includes monies spent on the patent litigation. TiVo's ARPU was $8.83/mo in FY06. Subtracting the $2.25/mo in service cost, the marginal profit per additional sub was $6.56/mo. Dividing this into a 12 month loss of $34.4M means with under 450,000 additional SA subs, The entire TiVo company is break-even. TiVo would have been break-even for FY06 if it had averaged 1.71M instead of 1.27M subs.
> 
> *TiVo's problem is not its pricing, its problem is its number of subscribers is insufficient to pay for the whole company's costs. *
Click to expand...


----------



## DevilDogs

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> When the FAQs and so forth are published next week, I think folks will have an easier time with all this.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


I guess that's what I'm struggling with the most. Why would Tivo announce this and leave us to search forums such as this (scanning through many, many pages), without giving us a "what does this mean?" sheet. You know, a few pages that advises customers of the benefits/detractions/options. If you want to call that an FAQ, fine, but an FAQ is Frequently ASKED Questions, as in they've already been asked. What I expected was something to keep us (or minimize) from asking questions. There's obviously a lot of confusion. And 1 week of lifetime discontinuation just doesn't seem good enough. How long will it take for the FAQ to come out? THAT is when the lifetime discountinuation countdown should start. Not while there is still a lot left unanswered.


----------



## dswallow

DevilDogs said:


> I guess that's what I'm struggling with the most. Why would Tivo announce this and leave us to search forums such as this (scanning through many, many pages), without giving us a "what does this mean?" sheet. You know, a few pages that advises customers of the benefits/detractions/options. If you want to call that an FAQ, fine, but an FAQ is Frequently ASKED Questions, as in they've already been asked. What I expected was something to keep us (or minimize) from asking questions. There's obviously a lot of confusion. And 1 week of lifetime discontinuation just doesn't seem good enough. How long will it take for the FAQ to come out? THAT is when the lifetime discountinuation countdown should start. Not while there is still a lot left unanswered.


FAQ= Frequently Asked Questions

Somebody's gotta be the first to ask.


----------



## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> If 80 hour units are free with the service bundle commitment, is it safe to assume new 40 hour units will no longer be sold? Or sold un-bundled? Or will cheaper bundles show up? (I know you had mentioned no info would be provided on on S3 bundles now, but wonder about the other direction or burning models.)


I want a "roll my own" no HD model that I can slap a 300GB in...


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> I have already PROVEN in multiple ways in your thread that Lifetime WAS PROFITABLE for TiVo as it was...


But was it profitable _enough_ to cover continued R&D, advertising, support, and waging legal battles? So according to that analysis if they had another 450k subscribers they would have broke even, but they would have probably incurred more expenses. And they probably want to do much more than break even.


----------



## danieljanderson

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723


----------



## DrStrange

murgatroyd said:


> I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"





Scrith said:


> Excellent point.





timckelley said:


> That's a good point.


Yeah, I kinda thought so too.


----------



## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> But was it profitable _enough_ to cover continued R&D, advertising, support, and waging legal battles? So according to that analysis if they had another 450k subscribers they would have broke even, but they would have probably incurred more expenses. And they probably want to do much more than break even.


Actually the additional costs you mention are accounted for in my methodologies by virute of incorporating the cost structure for the entire enterprise which includes * all the costs needed to drive subscriber growth and pay for the patent litigation costs!*

Sure they want to do more than break even. If they added the same 450K subs this FY07 that they got in FY06 using the same expense structure they get to break even. *Thereafter all growth is gravy*. On top of this, I know you are aware of the increasing *non-subscription revenue opportunities * in TiVo's future business model - additional non-service revenues from and because of subscribers.


----------



## TiVoStephen

HDTiVo, your new signature:
1. Until January 20, 2000: Your Life.
2. Until 3/15/06: Your box's Life.
3. After 3/15/06: Dead.
...has several errors.

1. It was NEVER your life. We could see why people had confusion, but if you read Richard's post or look at the documentation, you will agree that Product Lifetime was NEVER sold as your life.

2. It's not DEAD after 3/15. Existing Lifetime contracts are still honored. We simply will not be offering it in the future. But there's already enough confusion about that point, please don't add to it.

As for your analysis, it's oversimplistic and misses quite a few enormous factors, but I'm sorry to say that I don't have the time to refute it now.


----------



## MickeS

HDTiVo said:


> At the risk of piling on, TiVo, in its infinite infalibility, wrote their contract back in the beginning so it tied Lifetime to the Life of the person.
> 
> *
> History of Lifetime:
> 
> 1. Until January 20, 2000: Your Life.
> 2. Until 3/15/06: Your box's Life.
> 3. After 3/15/06: Dead.*


What are you talking about? Lifetime is not dead - it's just that they changed the definition again, it now means "Pay monthly for the life of the unit."


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> HDTiVo, your new signature:
> 1. Until January 20, 2000: Your Life.
> 2. Until 3/15/06: Your box's Life.
> 3. After 3/15/06: Dead.
> ...has several errors.
> 
> .....
> 
> As for your analysis, it's oversimplistic and misses quite a few enormous factors, but I'm sorry to say that I don't have the time to refute it now.


But the Sig is so cute the way it is! 

Besides 'Lifetime is Dead' is just as accurate as 'TiVo is not raising prices' 

Please, if you intend to discuss financials, be so kind as to be authorized to fully anwser resulting questions, or have IR/Finance people on hand who can fully answer such questions.

Thank you.


----------



## HDTiVo

MickeS said:


> What are you talking about? Lifetime is not dead - it's just that they changed the definition again, it now means "Pay monthly for the life of the unit."


Provided you _call_ to alert them to the demise of such unit...


----------



## Dan Clarke

TiVoPony said:


> Dan, I know there's been a lot of discussion here, but TiVo does continue to offer a multi-service discount. It's just not available for plans where we give you the hardware for free. If you opt to get the hardware for free, the MSD does not apply to that box - it's ineligible for the term of the contract.
> 
> Bundled plan boxes can however be used as the qualifying box to enable a non-bundled box to receive the MSD.
> 
> Pony


TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?

That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!


----------



## dgh

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I do know that many of my friends and family who could not previously afford a box will soon be able to get an 80-hour unit for no upfront cost and a monthly fee that starts at $16.95.


This sounds like the commercials for the "rent to own" shops. They're aimed at the people with the least money, but they end up being the most expensive way to buy things.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Dan Clarke said:


> TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?
> 
> That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!


Well...you're assuming you will even be able to _buy_ a unit that way in the future.


----------



## bryan314

lajohn27 said:


> Few in this thread can argue that Lifetime was an incredibly good deal at $299... perhaps *too* good a deal.. so...
> 
> A terribly evil thought just crossed my mind ....
> 
> Plan For Lifetime Service:
> 
> - remove lifetime service and call it too costly
> 
> - people go nuts complaining
> 
> - bring it back at a much higher price
> 
> - everyone is so happy its back, they don't complain nearly as much about the price going up
> 
> Hey, I can dream right?


Not totally illogical. Series 2 is at the end of the product cycle. Tivo is probably ramping down production in anticipation of series 3 later this year. It may be that they didn't want to get stuck with a bunch of lifetimes on a product they wouldn't be making in a few months. With a 3 to 4 year life on a unit, that's a long time to support a discontinued product. I wouldn't be surprised it 'lifetime at a higher price' reappeared for the series 3.

Well, one can hope anyways.


----------



## TiVoPony

BobCamp1 said:


> The date is that because Tivo didn't make it clear initially that lifetime was tied to the unit, not the person. When they did make it clear on January 21, 2000, people got angry. So Tivo got involved in a class-action lawsuit, and this was the settlement.


I have to step in here. This is completely untrue.

TiVo was never sued, there was no class-action lawsuit, and there was no settlement. That is all completely wrong.

Lifetime service has always been tied to the life of the product, not to that of the subscriber. Because a few people expressed confusion about this we made our language crystal clear in January of 2000. At that time we announced that anyone who had purchased lifetime prior to that date would be eligible for a one-time product lifetime transfer. This was done as a completely voluntary good deed by our company, not because anybody threatened us with legal action (let alone sued us).

We're good guys, and it's disappointing to see history twisted in this manner. 

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## jfh3

TiVoPony said:


> No, if you're honestly confused, by my comments, I apologize and will try to clarify.
> 
> We have not raised prices. If you have a box, and want to subscribe, it's the exact same deal as before - $12.95/mo with a one year commit. If you want a free box, then you pay a higher monthly service fee.


Pony,

All may be true, but the press doesn't understand it either (see the recent Fortune article that essentially says that all Tivo did was raise prices.

Not that Fortune has ever been kind to Tivo, but there just one example of the mainstream press that "doesn't get it" either.

Please ask your IR folks to do some education PDQ.


----------



## VOLFAN

Dan Clarke said:


> TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?
> 
> That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!


TivoPony:

Care to confirm if this is true or not... MSD and full price for Series 3?

I currently have a Series 2 w/ Lifetime and would really like to know if the above is true. If so, I concur - hurry up with the Series 3. 

Thanks for your input and help! It's really nice to see Tivo employees participating so regurlarly.

<><


----------



## mattack

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, anyone who activated their Tivo after Jan 20, 2000 has the lifetime subsciption permanently tied to to unit. When the unit dies, your subscription goes bye-bye.


You're completely ignoring the possibility of getting the unit replaced or repaired by Tivo or through official channels. People have said that they have gotten lifetime subscription transferred when their old broken Tivo was replaced instead of being repaired.

What you *can't* do is simply go out and buy a new Tivo and tranfer the lifetime to that.


----------



## mattack

murgatroyd said:


> I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"


Note, I continue to be one of those who thinks lifetime going away is a bad idea, and it has cast very much doubt on the idea of me getting series 3s..

But to refute your point -- you could still get them the 3 year (for example) prepaid subscription-that-comes-with-the-box.

Yes, at the end of the 3 years, then they'd have to pay. But it's sort of like getting someone a magazine subscription as a gift.. If they want the magazine subscription after the one you bought runs out, then they have to pay for the new subscription themselves.

(again, I still want lifetime back, even if it were at a greatly increased price.)


----------



## tazzftw

Exactly. I don't recall giving a TiVo with lifetime being the only option.


----------



## lajohn27

TiVoPony said:


> I have to step in here. This is completely untrue.
> 
> TiVo was never sued, there was no class-action lawsuit, and there was no settlement. That is all completely wrong.
> 
> ...(snip) This was done as a completely voluntary good deed by our company, not because anybody threatened us with legal action (let alone sued us).
> 
> We're good guys, and it's disappointing to see history twisted in this manner.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


See.. Pony's explanation is exactly how I remember it - but I wasn't 1000% sure some jerk hadn't threatened with a lawyer.

Thanks for the clarification Pony - most of us remember it as it happened. (see my post prior to the one you quoted)

J


----------



## DevilDogs

dswallow said:


> FAQ= Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> Somebody's gotta be the first to ask.


Yes, that was my point. We shouldn't have had to ask these questions. If they had done that much research, surely they knew people would be up in arms over it, and have lots of questions. Besides, the *way* it was announced is what I have a problem with.

_Product lifetime is going away. We're announcing 3 new pricing structures. Good luck!_

C'mon, how about a little more info than that. When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.

I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.


----------



## DevilDogs

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, anyone who activated their Tivo after Jan 20, 2000 has the lifetime subsciption permanently tied to to unit. When the unit dies, your subscription goes bye-bye. The date is that because Tivo didn't make it clear initially that lifetime was tied to the unit, not the person. When they did make it clear on January 21, 2000, people got angry. So Tivo got involved in a class-action lawsuit, and this was the settlement.


Oh yeah, I forgot about that being date. Still, I swear I saw some place that said if you had your Tivo replaced by an official Tivo representative (or something to that effect), you could transfer your lifetime service. This makes it sound like I can't since my Tivo was activated in 2002.


----------



## TiVoPony

lajohn27 said:


> Thanks for the clarification Pony - most of us remember it as it happened. (see my post prior to the one you quoted)
> 
> J


Appreciate the support, but I think you're probably wrong about 'most of us' remembering it as it happened. Most people here probably hadn't even heard of TiVo back in January of 2000.

That's the danger of posts like the one that I quoted. There are a lot of people who would never know any better, and would believe what they read.

I'm glad you remember though. We do try to do the right thing!

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## tbeckner

DevilDogs said:


> Yes, that was my point. We shouldn't have had to ask these questions. If they had done that much research, surely they knew people would be up in arms over it, and have lots of questions. Besides, the *way* it was announced is what I have a problem with.
> 
> _Product lifetime is going away. We're announcing 3 new pricing structures. Good luck!_
> 
> C'mon, how about a little more info than that. When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.
> 
> I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.


The press release is on their site and is more than one line long. I never got anything from DirecTV about the lease plan or the price increase, nothing. Go figure. It must be the new NON-COMMUNICATIONS of the new corporations. In the case of TiVo, it only applies to new customers, but in the case of DirecTV it applies to everyone who has a subscription, which are all DirecTV customers, all 15+ million. And to top it off, DirecTV has been around seven years or so longer than TiVo. You would have thought they would have learned?

Not to let TiVo off the hook, but since it only applies to new customers and is only a financing scheme, why would they send it out to existing customers. I would say, change the TiVo web site and let it go.


----------



## DevilDogs

cwoody222 said:


> 1. I don't think that was EVER the case. Unless your S1 is still under warranty (it's not) or you bought it before the grandfather date in 2000 in which case you can transfer it to any other unit for any other reason - ONE TIME. Otherwise, if your unit goes belly up, you're out the lifetime fee; sorry.


I swear I saw some place that if replaced by a Tivo approved company, it could be transferred, even after the grandfather date.


----------



## TiVoPony

DevilDogs said:


> When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.
> 
> I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.


We agree, a press release isn't enough. The tivo.com website will be updated with all of the details, including a FAQ, when the new pricing plans start next week.

We could have just given you that answer - check back next week on tivo.com for the details - a lot of companies would.

Instead we're here, answering questions before the plans are officially available.

We'll apologize if you're not satisfied, but please don't take our participation here, or the information we share, for granted.

Thanks,
Pony


----------



## Electronut

Personally I think the new TiVo sub pricing plans are a joke. Why wouldn't anyone want to pay $300 up front for LIFETIME service as opposed to high monthly charges?

Do the math folks. Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers? Most of us that have Tivo's are looking to always stay subbed.



> The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a month or $224 prepaid
> The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a month or $369 prepaid
> The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a month or $469 prepaid


Think about it. Your paying a monthly fee for as long as you want to be subbed. That's nuts! Take the 3 year service @ $469 x next 30 years (10 terms) and that's $4690!!! I picked 30 years for a random number since I'm 37. Hmmm..... should I go with that or a lifetime sub at $300? If you don't prepay the $495 up front then your looking at even worse numbers at $16.95 per month. $16.95 x 30 years (360 months) = $6102..Yikes!

TiVo just lost any opportunity to get more business out of me. Have my lifetime S2 but that looks like all I will have with them. I really don't see how this is a good thing at all. Anyone that is cost conscious and knows what Tivo had in place with original $300 lifetime cost I can't see doing this. They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?


----------



## TiVoPony

VOLFAN said:


> TivoPony:
> 
> Care to confirm if this is true or not... MSD and full price for Series 3?
> 
> I currently have a Series 2 w/ Lifetime and would really like to know if the above is true. If so, I concur - hurry up with the Series 3.
> 
> Thanks for your input and help! It's really nice to see Tivo employees participating so regurlarly.
> 
> <><


I'm going to have to ask Stephen to look at this one. I'll admit when I just don't know. 

Pony


----------



## TiVoPony

Electronut said:


> They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?


Electronut, no disrespect intended, but I believe you've confused our company with Exxon. TiVo didn't make $36 Billion dollars in profit last year.

If your hypothesis is that Lifetime was a better deal, you're right. Nobody disputes that. But it was *too good* of a deal. It won't be offered going forward.

I'm sorry if that disturbs you. But we want to be around years from now to provide service to all of our customers, including those that have purchased Lifetime.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## TiVoPony

DevilDogs said:


> I swear I saw some place that if replaced by a Tivo approved company, it could be transferred, even after the grandfather date.


Taken from the new pricing summary posted as a sticky at the top of the Coffee House:

Q. Can I transfer my Product Lifetime service contract to new hardware?

A. For Product Lifetime, the answer is no, just like today. This isn't really part of our announcement and the rules haven't changed, but since this is a frequently asked question I'm including it here. Product Lifetime is always tied to the specific box that you activated, as defined in the terms of the Product Lifetime Description: http://www.tivo.com/0.4.asp

There are only four exceptions:

1. 30-day money back guarantee: During the first 30 days after you activate your Product Lifetime service, you can transfer freely from one unit to another.
2. Grandfather transfer: The one-time "Grandfather transfer" (for people who purchased Product Lifetime on or before January 21, 2000 [as in, more than six years ago], and who have not already used their one-time transfer) is still allowed and will also be honored for future hardware releases from TiVo, such as the Series3. If you have any trouble when you call, please mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent.
3. Authorized warranty replacement:In the event that a unit with Product Lifetime malfunctions, you can opt to have it repaired under warranty by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer (whether it's TiVo, Humax, Sony, etc.) cannot repair the unit and opts to replace it, we will transfer the Product Lifetime service to the new unit. In most cases this happens automatically. If not, you can usually make the change yourself in Manage My Account or by calling customer support.
4. Extended warranty through a retailer: As a courtesy, TiVo will usually allow a Product Lifetime service transfer in the case that you purchased an extended warranty from a retailer, and the retailer was not able to repair the unit and instead replaced it with an equivalent unit under the terms of their extended warranty program. Note that customer support might ask to see evidence of the extended warranty agreement.

Pony


----------



## megazone

ALooneyGuy said:


> Exactly! They think they can make more money by forcing you to keep paying but what is more likely is that folks will just turn to their cable/satellite provider for their digital recording needs.


The facts support TiVo's move. The large majority of TiVo subscribers are NOT lifetime, but monthly. And when they trialed these new pricing plans last year, sales went *up*.

These pricing plans weren't whipped up on a whiim, they did tests and research, and all of it was overwhelmingly positive - which is why we have the change.

Will some people be upset? Sure. Heck, I'm not thrilled - I'd love to still have lifetime, even if it were $599. Will some people dump their TiVos. Sure. But the overall result for TiVo should be positive based on history. They can't make everyone happy, but the thought that people are going to turn away from TiVo in droves over this is laughable in light of the facts.


----------



## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> "There he goes again..."
> 
> I have already PROVEN in multiple ways in your thread that Lifetime WAS PROFITABLE for TiVo as it was...


Yes, there you go again. ;-) You did no such thing. You leave out important facts to make your claims. I already showed this in my comments to your posts the first time so I'm not going to bother again. The short version is you leave out costs and you don't seem to understand the different between an operational profit and an overal profit. Being operationally profitable doesn't make a company profitable, you can still tank and go bankrupt by losing money overall despite and operational profit. Your 11-year example is utter bunk because you magically null the SAC TiVo experienced making selling that unit in the first place. The unit changing hands is meaningless misdirection.

Saying all they need to do is add 450,000 more subs is assinine. All Irridium needed to do was add a few million more subs to avoid their bankruptcy too! What idiots for not going so! Right...

From past threads you don't seem to grasp SAC - Subscriber Acquisition Cost. If you look at their most recent quarterly presentation you'll see that the periods when they've driven higher net sub adds coincide with periods of higher SAC. Simply, to accelerate subscription growth you can spend more money on marketing, rebates, subsidies, retail promotions, etc. But all of those increase the cost - you're 'buying a customer' - and directly cut into the profit margin on that customer. During some periods SAC has been so high that they see no profit on lifetime, and potentially a loss.

Trying to accelerate subscriptions would mean costs go up, which means they'd need even *more* subscriptions to cover the loss of margin. And you get into a race. Costs can rise enough to make it unprofitable to continue.

You need to find the balance that is sustainable, which is what TiVo is attempting to do. I'm sure that if they could wave a magic wand and add 450,000 more subs and suddenly become profitable, they would. But the world doesn't work that way.


----------



## TheSlyBear

> Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers?


By staying in business perhaps?


----------



## stormy not dead

I'm fine with the convoluted new pricing. I would prefer it to have been a charge added on top of service fees, but whatever. I'm even fine (if personally saddened) with no more lifetime options - it was such a steal I did it twice (one's been subbed for five years, another for three). 

What I'm not fine with is the customer having to call at the end of the rate period and ask to be switched to the lower plan. TiVo knows when they signed up, and at what rate, and could just automatically switch them over to service-only plans, barring any action from the customer towards annual pre-payment. I'm sure the numbers have been crunched, and there will be a significant portion of people who will never call for the lower rate, or who will not get around to it immediately, especially if TiVo is not reminding them of it. It's just not cool to me, though.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVoPony said:


> .... Most people here probably hadn't even heard of TiVo back in January of 2000. ....
> Cheers,
> Pony


I had heard of TiVo, and I was here too. The problem is that I can't even remember what happened *yesterday*


----------



## megazone

plowsterbabe said:


> To me, this type of model makes sense. I have a Mac that happily runs 10.3. I can pay the upgrade to 10.4 if I want to, but on that particular machine, there's no pressing need.


Apples and oranges. Apple sells you the OS. After that there is no ongoing cost to them for you to continue using it.

TiVo sells a *service*. It costs them to provide that service. It doesn't matter if you never receive another software update or not, it still costs them to provide the service the box needs to run.

They are entirely different models, which is why the OS pricing model does NOT work for TiVo.

TiVo is like other services - cell phone, cable, ISP, etc.


----------



## cwerdna

Electronut said:


> Personally I think the new TiVo sub pricing plans are a joke. Why wouldn't anyone want to pay $300 up front for LIFETIME service as opposed to high monthly charges?
> ...
> 
> TiVo just lost any opportunity to get more business out of me. Have my lifetime S2 but that looks like all I will have with them. I really don't see how this is a good thing at all. Anyone that is cost conscious and knows what Tivo had in place with original $300 lifetime cost I can't see doing this. They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?


I agree that lifetime is a great deal and agree w/Pony's reply. Both my standalones have lifetime and I'm about to activate a third w/lifetime.

While I'm very unhappy about the changes (expressed it earlier already) and am not sure that this is right move for them, it sounds like you haven't read their financials. If memory serves, they've lost money EVERY quarter except one (see http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=172095, http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TIVO and http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=189823). They are NOT greedy. BTW, please don't get into stock talk which is prohibited on here.

I really want Tivo to survive and if they think this is going to help them achieve that, so be it. It makes it a tougher sell for me, but oh well.


----------



## megazone

istvo4me said:


> Okay, I'm all confused. I was planning on getting TiVo pretty soon but because of these new changes, I'm a little hesitant. This is the way I see it:
> 
> Option 1:
> Buy Box from CompUSA = $29.99
> Service Only Pricing: $12.95 x 1 Year = $155.40
> TOTAL = $185.39
> 
> Option 2:
> Bundled Pricing: $19.95 x 1 Year = $239.40
> 
> Option 3:
> Bundled Pricing: Box and Service for 1 Year = $224.00
> 
> Now tell me, why would I go for the new pricing structure (Option 2 and 3) as I'm only looking 1 year ahead? Am I missing something here? Isn't Option 1 still the best?


First - is that CompUSA unit a 40-hour unit or an 80-hour unit? Note that the TiVo pricing is on 80-hour units.

Second, the CompUSA pricing is after rebates, which are a special promotion. The rebates are for a limited time. Yes, it is the better deal, no question, but that's the nature of retail promotions - they're better deals, for a limited time. There have been even better deals - units free after rebate - in the past. And there will probably be special offers in the future too. Such is life.


----------



## megazone

murgatroyd said:


> I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"


TiVo has been selling gift subscriptions for 3, 6, and 12 month periods for a while, as well as a lifetime gift which they discontinued a while back.

I'm sure they have a lot of data on gift purchases that went into discontinuing the lifetime gift card, and also into the discontinuing of lifetime in general. I've seen a lot of people give TiVo WITHOUT lifetime - usually with some limited subscription period as a gift.

Under the new regime you can gift a TiVo with 1, 2, or 3 years pre-paid. That's hardly a bad gift! I don't see how someone could complain about three years of free TiVo!



> I understand that Product Lifetime was a bad deal for TiVo, Inc. -- but if the current deal wasn't working out, why not increase the price of Product Lifetime?


From what they said, they'd have to increase the price to the point where it was unattractive and the expected uptake would be so low it wouldn't be worth the administrative overheard of offering it. And, based on the responses so far to the poll I posted here and on TiVo Lovers, I'm afraid they're right. Most people aren't willing to pay more than the existing $299, the majority no more than $399. Unscientific, I know, but that's out of a pre-selected audience of people seemingly inclined to go with lifetime. I'm starting to think the only reason most people really liked lifetime was because it was so cheap, and they're just sour about losing a good deal.

Personally I've said I'd probably go for lifetime for up to $599. Definitely for $499, more than that I'd have to think about - and more than $599 I doubt I'd do it.


----------



## megazone

Scrith said:


> Getting rid of the lifetime subscription option is an incredibly stupid move, in my opinion. I've always said that they should just get rid of montly fees altogether and increase the price of the unit.


Then I suppose you're ignorant of history and TiVo subscription data?

Monthly is, by far, the most popular option - with over 80% of subs monthly. The new pricing was tested last year, with very positive results - sales went up. And there used to be a major competitor to TiVo, called ReplayTV, which started off offering only lifetime service - they sold units for higher prices with the service included. TiVo offered monthly. TiVo soundly beat them in sales, and eventually ReplayTV copied TiVo's pricing to attempt to compete - but it was too late, TiVo had taken a commanding lead and RTV never caught up again.


----------



## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> I've finally found a somewhat easy way to show that TiVo could have reached profitability WITHOUT changing their pricing (Lifetime, monthly, MSD...)
> 
> In FY05 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $79.8M
> In FY06 TiVo - the entire enterprise - lost $34.4M
> 
> Average SA Subscribers increase in FY06 by 450K over FY05.
> 
> The improvement in results - enterprise wide - was $45.4 with the addition of 450K subs at the OLD pricing.
> 
> Is there any reason not to conclude, based either on those numbers, or on my other presentations of numbers, that the remaining $34.4M "problem" could not be solved with another 450K subs?


A mountain of reasons. This logic is as good as:
God is love
Love is blind
Stevie Wonder is blind
Therefore Stevie Wonder is God

You're taking one piece of data - the change in net loss, and another piece of data - the net sub add, and drawing a connection without any supporting evidence.

What other revenue did TiVo add other than the subs? What costs did they have in 05 that they eliminated in 06? What changed about their cost structure? What were any special modifications to either year's results?

*MANY* variables feed the bottom line, not just sub adds. You can't say that adding 450,000 subs is what accounts for the $45.4 million dollar reduction in loss. In fact, it absolutely does not account for that, if you read the financials.


----------



## Stylin

Puppy76 said:


> A bunch of comments-
> 
> Tivos been a hard sell to my friends and people I work with. The vast majority of people either arent that interested in TV, or find Tivos monthly fees to be too expensive. Ive found this to be the case over and over when trying to get people interested in Tivo-they dont get why its so good. Most people I talk to either dont care about a DVR at all, or else get DVRs from their cable company because its cheaper (or use their computer because its cheaper). One person Ive been trying to steer towards Tivo is ONLY interested in Tivo because it WOULD have been CHEAPER in the long run-because you own the hardware and could get a lifetime subscription. Now he has no interest at all (and he was thinking of buying two Tivos to replace his two cable DVRs).
> 
> For myself personally, I wouldnt own a Tivo if there hadnt been a lifetime option. I never would have considered it, and the truth is you dont know just how good it is until youve been using it heavily for a few weeks or months...


Agreed. I am the targeted TIVO consumer. I joined this forum a yr ago to ask a question on DTV - not fully understanding what a TIVO, much less a DVR, was lol. My technical knowledge goes about as far as hooking up a dvd player. Simply put: I'm the "average consumer". Since last yr, I subscribed to digital cable service (via Cablevision). In Oct 05, CV offered me their DVR free for a month. I used it and liked it. I now pay $10 extra a month for their DVR service - with no contract, and (having never used TIVO for comparison) am quite happy with it. Could I live w/o it (CV DVR)? Absolutely. I am the only person I know with DVR service - friends and coworkers are asking me if it's any good. A lot of people are not really hip to the whole concept. 
That being said, I hated the idea of paying a monthly service fee for the use of equipment. I prefer to buy upfront. That is what inspired me to start looking into TIVO, Replay or a DVD HD recorder. So far, I have not been able to find a reliable tv guide dvd recorder. The price of a hardly used lifetime subbed Replay was too high. That leaves TIVO - the big draw for a consumer like me is the Lifetime sub. Otherwise, why not just continue paying Cablevision the DVR fee? I heard about the Series 3, so was waiting to see what would be more cost effective a life sub on a S2 or S3...Yes, I understand that you all "claim" using TIVO is different from anything I've experienced BUT, you must understand that as an average (ignorant) consumer I'm already impressed by my Cable co. DVR - I don't know any better, so that's impressive enough for me!! One does not understand "why it's (TIVO) so great" until they actually use it. The problem is that the opportunity to actually appreciate a TIVO in action does not really present itself.
IMHO, The bottom line is that without the offer of a lifetime subscription TIVO is not at all appealing to the average consumer who is able to rent a DVR from their Cable Co. Why the heck would I sign up with TIVO for a mthly fee and service contract, when my Cable co provides me with a DVR with no contract and a lesser price???

BTW, I was lucky enough to be informed of the discontinuation lifetime, so I purchased a box today. I wasn't really ready to join yet but it's obvious it's a better deal, and if I ever change my mind or decide to go a different route, at least there is some resale value...I'm really going on blind faith since I've actually never used or seen a TIVO - but the praise seems to be consistent, so I'm sure I'll be impressed. Impressed enough to pay $224 prepaid vs $10 mthly? HELL NO!!


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> You are not grandfathered.
> 
> The 2000 date was because that was the point at which TIVO made it perfectly clear that lifetime meant the lifetime of the box.. not the lifetime of the human who purchased it.





lajohn27 said:


> See.. Pony's explanation is exactly how I remember it - but I wasn't 1000% sure some jerk hadn't threatened with a lawyer.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification Pony - most of us remember it as it happened. (see my post prior to the one you quoted)
> 
> J


I don't think what Pony said is exactly what you said - esp. as per lifetime of the human...


----------



## HDTiVo

DevilDogs said:


> Yes, that was my point. We shouldn't have had to ask these questions. If they had done that much research, surely they knew people would be up in arms over it, and have lots of questions. Besides, the *way* it was announced is what I have a problem with.
> 
> _Product lifetime is going away. We're announcing 3 new pricing structures. Good luck!_
> 
> C'mon, how about a little more info than that. When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.
> 
> I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.


The funny thing is I started creating a FAQ more than a day before your post on this - which got replaced by an Official FAQ from TiVo, Inc. a few hours later, and became a Forum Sticky. So the info is all there.


----------



## HDTiVo

tbeckner said:


> Not to let TiVo off the hook, but since it only applies to new customers and is only a financing scheme, why would they send it out to existing customers. I would say, change the TiVo web site and let it go.


Because the elimination of Lifetime, which was available for purchase by existing customers on their existing boxes, affects existing customers, for one.

Existing customers *are also ideal * new customers when it comes to purchasing additional units in the future.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

STB said:


> Agreed. I am the targeted TIVO consumer. I joined this forum a yr ago to ask a question on DTV - not fully understanding what a TIVO, much less a DVR, was lol. My technical knowledge goes about as far as hooking up a dvd player. Simply put: I'm the "average consumer". Since last yr, I subscribed to digital cable service (via Cablevision). In Oct 05, CV offered me their DVR free for a month. I used it and liked it. I now pay $10 extra a month for their DVR service - with no contract, and (having never used TIVO for comparison) am quite happy with it. Could I live w/o it (CV DVR)? Absolutely. I am the only person I know with DVR service - friends and coworkers are asking me if it's any good. A lot of people are not really hip to the whole concept.
> That being said, I hated the idea of paying a monthly service fee for the use of equipment. I prefer to buy upfront. That is what inspired me to start looking into TIVO, Replay or a DVD HD recorder. So far, I have not been able to find a reliable tv guide dvd recorder. The price of a hardly used lifetime subbed Replay was too high. That leaves TIVO - the big draw for a consumer like me is the Lifetime sub. Otherwise, why not just continue paying Cablevision the DVR fee? I heard about the Series 3, so was waiting to see what would be more cost effective a life sub on a S2 or S3...Yes, I understand that you all "claim" using TIVO is different from anything I've experienced BUT, you must understand that as an average (ignorant) consumer I'm already impressed by my Cable co. DVR - I don't know any better, so that's impressive enough for me!! One does not understand "why it's (TIVO) so great" until they actually use it. The problem is that the opportunity to actually appreciate a TIVO in action does not really present itself.
> IMHO, The bottom line is that without the offer of a lifetime subscription TIVO is not at all appealing to the average consumer who is able to rent a DVR from their Cable Co. Why the heck would I sign up with TIVO for a mthly fee and service contract, when my Cable co provides me with a DVR with no contract and a lesser price???
> 
> BTW, I was lucky enough to be informed of the discontinuation lifetime, so I purchased a box today. I wasn't really ready to join yet but it's obvious it's a better deal, and if I ever change my mind or decide to go a different route, at least there is some resale value...I'm really going on blind faith since I've actually never used or seen a TIVO - but the praise seems to be consistent, so I'm sure I'll be impressed. Impressed enough to pay $224 prepaid vs $10 mthly? HELL NO!!


I have the Cablevision DVR which is made by Scientific Atlanta. The reason(s) I have it is because it records HD and has two tuners. I also have TiVo. There is no comparison between the two when it comes to ease of use. TiVo wins hands down. Please post back after you have had a chance to "digest" the TiVo. I'm curious to see what you think.

I also believe that you will want to upgrade to an S3 when it's released because it is an all-in-one solution. As you stated, you can always sell your S2, and get the S3 at a later date.


----------



## Stylin

DCIFRTHS said:


> I have the Cablevision DVR which is made by Scientific Atlanta. The reason(s) I have it is because it records HD and has two tuners. I also have TiVo. There is no comparison between the two when it comes to ease of use. TiVo wins hands down. Please post back after you have had a chance to "digest" the TiVo. I'm curious to see what you think.
> 
> I also believe that you will want to upgrade to an S3 when it's released because it is an all-in-one solution. As you stated, you can always sell your S2, and get the S3 at a later date.


From all the reviews, comparisons etc I have read, I'm sure that TIVO will win hands down. I do not expect to be disappointed. In fact I'll probably be hooked.
BUT, the point I'm making is that without the incentive of lifetime sub I would never have even ventured to compare the two services. I would have just stuck and been content with CV DVR. Ignorance is bliss. At this point CV DVR totally meets my needs. Under the new structure, if I am just looking at what TIVO offers vs my Cable co in terms of pricing/subs I'd stick with the Cable Co. I believe the average consumer will also stick with their Cable co.


----------



## HDTiVo

bootedbear said:


> Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers?
> 
> 
> 
> By staying in business perhaps?
Click to expand...

But TiVo wasn't DEAD.

TiVo wasn't dying, at least anytime soon, according to many knowledgeable folks around here.


----------



## interactiveTV

megazone said:


> Then I suppose you're ignorant of history and TiVo subscription data?
> 
> Monthly is, by far, the most popular option - with over 80% of subs monthly.


 Throwing around the word "ignorant" usually ends badly...

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-05-240039&Type=HTML
"The percent of cumulative TiVo-Owned subscriptions paying recurring fees was 51% during the quarter, an increase of 5% from the same period last year, due to the fact that 74% of TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions chose a monthly fee option"

And yes, I agree with you that 450K more subs would not have made Tivo profitable.

_ITV


----------



## HDTiVo

> And there used to be a major competitor to TiVo, called ReplayTV, which started off offering only lifetime service - they sold units for higher prices with the service included. TiVo offered monthly. TiVo soundly beat them in sales, and eventually ReplayTV copied TiVo's pricing to attempt to compete - but it was too late, TiVo had taken a commanding lead and RTV never caught up again.


I had a Replay. Shortly after my first TiVo I got it and tried it out. It is one of the few things I have bought that I actually made the effort to return for my money back. It had nothing to do with price though. The Replay stunk.



megazone said:


> A mountain of reasons. This logic is as good as:
> God is love
> Love is blind
> Stevie Wonder is blind
> Therefore Stevie Wonder is God
> 
> You're taking one piece of data - the change in net loss, and another piece of data - the net sub add, and drawing a connection without any supporting evidence.
> 
> What other revenue did TiVo add other than the subs? What costs did they have in 05 that they eliminated in 06? What changed about their cost structure? What were any special modifications to either year's results?
> 
> *MANY* variables feed the bottom line, not just sub adds. You can't say that adding 450,000 subs is what accounts for the $45.4 million dollar reduction in loss. In fact, it absolutely does not account for that, if you read the financials.


Neither Stevie Wonder nor God put out their financial statements, so I just can't comment on any of that.

Otherwise, this is not the only way I have done this calculation. I did it far more complexly from the bottom up. It comes out about the same.

I have additional large expense items to remove from my calculations of break-even which I have not touched on. I could easily enhance my position significantly.

You read the financials, run the numbers, and walk us through your version of the results so we can see how they differ from mine and reconcile them.


----------



## HDTiVo

STB said:


> IMHO, The bottom line is that without the offer of a lifetime subscription TIVO is not at all appealing to the average consumer who is able to rent a DVR from their Cable Co. Why the heck would I sign up with TIVO for a mthly fee and service contract, when my Cable co provides me with a DVR with no contract and a lesser price???


The *Conundrum * for people that actually have money:

A Series2 under the new arrangement or

KabelCost DVR: 2 tuners, $10/mo, take full DVR style advantage of digital and *HD * programing - which is why you bought that $5,999 plasma thang anyway - but *suffer with the UI*

Even *if * a new customer *knew * what a TiVo was, and did buy one Series2 to get their analog recording done easily (good UI,) they probably would not buy a second one.

You spent $5,999 on your HDTV. You did it for a reason. Are TiVo's nice features going to be enough to get you to drive that thing with an inferior signal?


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> Throwing around the word "ignorant" usually ends badly...
> 
> http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-05-240039&Type=HTML
> "The percent of cumulative TiVo-Owned subscriptions paying recurring fees was 51% during the quarter, an increase of 5% from the same period last year, due to the fact that 74% of TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions chose a monthly fee option"
> 
> And yes, I agree with you that 450K more subs would not have made Tivo profitable.
> 
> _ITV


Oh no, some real information that shows that the Lifetime that you all say was killing TiVo was fading anyway. Hurts your positions significantly.

Of course Lifetime was fading. Between people thinking they are going all digital in their equipment in a short number of years (S2 useful life shorter) AND a second box @$6.95 (which TiVo isn't killing), there's less incentive to go Lifetime anymore anyway.

So how many additional subs do you calculate would make TiVo profitable under the old pricing regime? Show us your calculations.


----------



## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> Yes, there you go again. ;-)
> 
> 1. You did no such thing. You leave out important facts to make your claims. I already showed this in my comments to your posts the first time so I'm not going to bother again. The short version is you leave out costs and you don't seem to understand the different between an operational profit and an overal profit.
> 
> 2. Your 11-year example is utter bunk because you magically null the SAC TiVo experienced making selling that unit in the first place. The unit changing hands is meaningless misdirection.
> 
> 3. Saying all they need to do is add 450,000 more subs is assinine. All Irridium needed to do was add a few million more subs to avoid their bankruptcy too! What idiots for not going so! Right...
> 
> From past threads you don't seem to grasp SAC - Subscriber Acquisition Cost. If you look at their most recent quarterly presentation you'll see that the periods when they've driven higher net sub adds coincide with periods of higher SAC. Simply, to accelerate subscription growth you can spend more money on marketing, rebates, subsidies, retail promotions, etc. But all of those increase the cost - you're 'buying a customer' - and directly cut into the profit margin on that customer. During some periods SAC has been so high that they see no profit on lifetime, and potentially a loss.
> 
> Trying to accelerate subscriptions would mean costs go up, which means they'd need even *more* subscriptions to cover the loss of margin. And you get into a race. Costs can rise enough to make it unprofitable to continue.
> 
> You need to find the balance that is sustainable, which is what TiVo is attempting to do. I'm sure that if they could wave a magic wand and add 450,000 more subs and suddenly become profitable, they would. But the world doesn't work that way.


1. I have shown it multiple ways. You merely assert that I have not, and claim I leave out costs, and only account for operational profit. Instead, I have not left out any costs because I use the TOTAL NET LOSS for the entire company at the end of my analysis. What other costs are there to add when you are already using ALL the costs the company has in its financial statement?

Furthermore, for purposes of my arguments, I leave IN large costs which are in fact not relevent to the S2 Services business, and I still make my numbers. Beyond even that, I don't include additional other revenues which TiVo's current business plans will start to bring in this year.

2. I don't _just _ leave out SAC. Whether TiVo recovered the SAC from the original owner or it didn't, doesn't matter once the unit is out of service. Now the calculation for TiVo on a *secondhand * unit is simply one based on whether it is worth the Service Cost vs. the Lifetime price.

Having shown for a secondhand unit that $299 was highly profitable, I would then ask what should Bundled Lifetime have to be for a *new * unit? With SAC of $180, the high end of their normal range, the answer would be no more than $479. (Its $369 today.)

Bundled Lifetime should be no more than $479 (very worst case...) but the new offering is Bundled 3yrs for $469. You get only 3 years, but pay only $10 less.

3. I don't want to accelerate subscriptions. TiVo being at 1.5M subs already now only needs to get to 1.7M by my estimate. They added 350K last year. By the end of FY07 they should have gotten over the 1.7M easily using the same growth cost structure.

TiVo was not going to go out of business before it could reach breakeven.


----------



## hi-nrg-joe

Just curious, but would this be appealing to anyone?

Purchase the bundle package for 2 years or longer and after the contract date you are eligible for lifetime on that box.

This way Tivo gets its 2-3 years worth of monthly service and then the customer can opt to upgrade to lifetime service on that box.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but some people say they would pay more for life time. So in this instance 2 years would be $454 then you can choose to either continue to pay $12.95/month or switch to lifetime for $299.

Another option to make it a little cheaper would be to prepay the 2 years at $369, then after the 2 year period, either pay the $12.95 or switch to lifetime for $299.

It may sound expensive, but then after the 2 year period, if a new box comes out, you can buy the new one, stick with monthly on the old one, or upgrade to lifetime with the old one......It seams that this way everybody still has options and can still get lifetime, you just have to fulfill your contract.

This should sound appealing to Tivo since they will get 2-3 years of monthly service revenue, then if someone "upgrades" to lifetime, they get another $300. Plus the expectation is that the box will live about 4-7 years. So in reality Tivo gets about 5 years worth of $$ overall. If the box lives longer than 5 years, then the customer is happy also.

What do you think??


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Oh no, some real information that shows that the Lifetime that you all say was killing TiVo was fading anyway. Hurts your positions significantly.
> 
> Of course Lifetime was fading. Between people thinking they are going all digital in their equipment in a short number of years (S2 useful life shorter) AND a second box @$6.95 (which TiVo isn't killing), there's less incentive to go Lifetime anymore anyway.
> 
> So how many additional subs do you calculate would make TiVo profitable under the old pricing regime? Show us your calculations.


 I'll ignore the sarcasm. Not usual for you and it's early morning...

Lifetime wasn't "killing" Tivo. Wounding badly but constant capital raises helped. Couldn't continue forever but...

1) I speculated -- and I don't have any more access to Tivo internals than you -- that an INCREASE in the price of lifetime would also increase the VALUE of older hardware. One of my S1s, registered in 2000, should, by all rights, have a de minimus value. It's a 6 year old Linux box and -- aside from a newer and bigger hard drive -- has parts worth very little due to depreciation. It's value comes form the associated service attached to the box. I further speculated that this service value creates a disincentive to upgrade as well as a healthy secondary market which discourages purchases of new hardware.

2) I speculated that the subscriber acquisition cost (around $200 or so) is negatively impacted by the "over valued" used boxes as used sales of lifetimes add no real incremental revenue to Tivo (I discount ancillary revenues, especially on S1) and is also negatively impacted by discouraging current subscribers from acquiring new generation boxes

3) I suggested the SAC is also negatively impacted by the lack of a clear marketing and incredibly wasteful advertising campaigns that have cost Tivo tens of millions.

4) That lifetime accounted for only ~25% of NEW subscribers does NOT change the speculation that INCREASING the PRICE of lifetime would increase the value of ALL lifetime subscribers -- which still account for about HALF of Tivo's stand-alone base. Regardless, if lifetime is not profitable for Tivo at current levels, even if new lifetime subscribers is decreasing, it still drains resources. 25% is not insignificant and the problem remains of the 50% installed base.

5) There is NO calculation I can do to show where Tivo WOULD be profitable. As others have pointed out, there are MANY moving variables. Even if we could cull stand-alone from the rest of the business (Comcast, unreleased hardware and software like S3), which we can't, it would be very complicated.

We do know the SAC for the year was about $200. That would leave, under the current (until Monday) pricing scheme, about $2/month for Tivo for a 4 year lifetime box. Even factoring in Tivo's high cost of capital, it's not a stretch to show how MUCH lower than even the multiple unit monthly that is. I also believe that while it might have changed going forward, Tivo has probably discovered that while it ueses 4 years for the lifetime revenue recognition, average box lifespan might be higher than that.

Tivo didn't have a profitable MODEL. I've argued that here for years and been blasted as an ass for it by the Tivo Army. I was told hardware costs would drop to near zero because of Moore's Law. I was told other revenues, like selling movie tickets, would make each and every subscriber a virtual gold mine. I was told I was blind.

Tivo has been discouraging lifetime sales and trying to move away from them because lifetime sales were NOT profitable. It wasn't a matter of the number of subscribers. Over the lifetime of the box, lifetime cost Tivo money. Selling more lifetimes, whether that be 500K or 5 million wouldn't matter. Sell at a loss but make it up in volume is the old joke.

If lifetime wasn't profitable at current price and raising the price of lifetime had its own problems (see speculation above), the only correct recourse was/is to eliminate it.

You like to look at change it units/profitability as a direct relationship. Even throwing in the mix of lifetime/monthly(with 1 year commitments) into that mix shows the error of doing so.

To answer your question: I can't show how to make Tivo profitable and continue as a growing on-going concern. No one can. Yet. If Ever. I can see how the lifetime subscription at $300 made it almost impossible (of course, if people stopped buying it completely, it would help).

As a consumer, it sucks to see lifetime go away. From the corporate POV, it makes sense. I've been arguing for years that Tivo needs a PROFITABLE business model and the push back on this board has been astounding. It wasn't a matter of UNITS, it's a matter of MODEL and Tivo has been trying many different things. Not to see the current model will work, only that the old model would NOT have.

_ITV


----------



## HDTiVo

ITV:

A number of posts ago I addressed your concern about the aftermarket and Lifetime. Can you go back to that and see what you think...



> You like to look at change it units/profitability as a direct relationship. Even throwing in the mix of lifetime/monthly(with 1 year commitments) into that mix shows the error of doing so.


Can you explain that further? TiVo losses have fallen as the subscriber base has increased - whatever the mix has been. And as you say the Lifetime/monthly mix is improving, and I mentioned why earlier...

I certainly agree monthly is more profitable for TiVo than Lifetime, so as as the Lifetime mix drops the old business model improves...

Thanks for being so generous in your responses.


----------



## Libertytoad

bsvid said:


> I hope you're right, but most buy the lifetime because of the value of it. This boils down to a significant price [/I]increase_ for a company that is struggling to stay afloat, and could not stay afloat with the more attractive lifetime pricing that they are now abandoning. ...It is too bad they couldn't get enough subscribers with the current offering because I feel that the new pricing will get them even fewer subscribers._


_

Agreed. It looks like I've bought my last Tivo and will be building a media pc instead.

By increasing the price of the service and removing the most attractive plan (lifetime) Tivo has made their offering less attractive.

Like many companies, they don't seem to understand that the economic "trick" is that, properly done, REDUCING pricing will generate more income. Making your service less competitive won't make more people want it._


----------



## Flyinace2000

What about us current customers paying month to month? I have a Toshiba RS-TX20 and a Tivo 40 hr. 12.95 + 6.95 a month. I called TiVo cust service and they were not sure yet what would happen to current customers. If they are going to raise my monthly i would seriusly consider dumping TiVo. What about my contract. I assume i could get out if it. I got the 40 hour for my mother for christmas and i had to "sign" a 1 year to get the rebate. I would argue since they changed the price i could get out of the contract free and clear. 

Or i can just suck it up and buy the lifetime on the Toshiba unit.

EDIT: I just read the "Summary" thread. Answered all my questions. Current subscriptions are not affected.

Does TiVo offer the lifetime service cut into 4 payments?


----------



## HDTiVo

There is another point I don't understand about the logic of the pre-pay bundles.

If you pay $469 you get 3 years and drop automatically to $16.95/mo

If you pay $224 and $12.95 for 2 years you spend $534.80 - a fair amount more.
Why is the one year person "punished" by auto-droping to $19.95 when they seem to pay more for the actual box in the bundle than the 3 year person?

A one year contract auto-droped to $16.95 gives a whopping $630.80 in 3 yrs.

Why, at least, not auto-drop everyone to the same $16.95 (or less) per month when the 1&2 year contracts give TiVo more than the 3yr anyway?


----------



## davezatz

Flyinace2000 said:


> Does TiVo offer the lifetime service cut into 4 payments?


It's Lifetime (until 3/15) or monthly subscription... no hybrid payment plan.


----------



## HDTiVo

Flyinace2000 said:


> EDIT: I just read the "Summary" thread. Answered all my questions. Current subscriptions are not affected.
> 
> Does TiVo offer the lifetime service cut into 4 payments?


Reading a little often helps. 

Yes, you can buy 4 consecutive 3yr contracts - pay every third year. By the end of twelve years, if you aren't dead at least the TiVo probably will be.


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> There is another point I don't understand about the logic of the pre-pay bundles.
> 
> Why is the one year person "punished" by auto-droping to $19.95 when they seem to pay more for the actual box in the bundle than the 3 year person??


I believe you do understand the logic, but want to emphasize a point (which I'm not sure of)... TiVo is trying to make money. It's similar to rebates - a business counts on a certain percentage not following through. It does seem to penalize the less informed or less motivated, but I guess they will be subsidizing you and I.


----------



## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> I believe you do understand the logic, but want to emphasize a point (which I'm not sure of)... TiVo is trying to make money. It's similar to rebates - a business counts on a certain percentage not following through. It does seem to penalize the less informed or less motivated, but I guess they will be subsidizing you and I.


I understand the logic of auto-dropping to SOME price ABOVE $12.95 because $12.95 requires a 1 year commitment.

What I don't understand is, given that the post 3yr auto-drop *is $16.95*, why should the 1 and 2 year auto-drops be higher (18.95 & 19.95) considering that the 1 & 2 year folks paid more already for years 1 and/or 2 than the 3yr person.

Maybe that expresses it better than the first time, or there is something more I missed.


----------



## hawk4hire

I have stayed out of this but have a couple of questions that I may have missed being answered - please forgive if they have been asked/answered...

1. If you currently pay 12.95/6.95 does this mean you can continue with this plan forever? or does this plan change too? - _NEVERMIND - found this by looking @ sticky... thanx anyway_

2. If Tivo needed to make more does it make sense to give away the hardware? Isnt THAT losing money? I understand you get the revenue from the sub but how does that make sense as opposed to not getting people who want to pay $XX for a lifetime sub.

I am not giving up my Tivo boxes (4 of them) but at the same time it seems like Tivo isnt looking at the long term pic. If you sell 1000 boxes @ 400 for lifetime that = 400k 
But if you sell [email protected]/month thats only about 100k/yr. 
Sure after 4 yrs you make profit BUT the 1000 boxes will buy more or recommend more to others = referrals. 
Watch the referrals after this takes place - I would bet they will slow down a lot.

jmho and questions...

hawk


----------



## interactiveTV

megazone said:


> From what they said, they'd have to increase the price to the point where it was unattractive and the expected uptake would be so low it wouldn't be worth the administrative overheard of offering it.


 I'm not doubting that as the official word but I don't buy it. The code and system and everything else is already in place. I don't see much administrative overhead. They _still_ must manage lifetime transfers.

I believe it has more to do with adding even more value to the existing and depreciated hardware. Why make a 6 year old S1 even *more* valuable?



megazone said:


> And, based on the responses so far to the poll I posted here and on TiVo Lovers, I'm afraid they're right. Most people aren't willing to pay more than the existing $299, the majority no more than $399. Unscientific, I know, but that's out of a pre-selected audience of people seemingly inclined to go with lifetime.


 The 44 responses isn't even unscientific, it's not worth mentioning.

I'm not buying the "administrative costs" arguement. Tivo still needs to manage lifetime service right now and will for years to come. The "take" rate would be small? Maybe, but what's the difference if you still need to manage the exisiting 50% of your base now that's lifetime?

Sorry, I don't buy it

_ITV


----------



## HDTiVo

To MegaZone's poll results:

Less than 30% of people are buying Lifetime now @$299. Why would it surprise you that so few would pay up to $399?

Lifetime is a necessary option at some reasonable increment over $299 - because TiVo *wants* to make more money - for a very important 15-20% (approx.) of the market.


----------



## HDTiVo

ITV:

Look at your Lifetime value increase hurts TiVo theory another way.

TiVo has in effect raised the value of Lifetime. 'New Non-Transferable Lifetime' now costs between $469 and $1407 in payment(s) of $469 every three years. You have the "advantage" of stoping the payments after $469 at whatever "chunk" you've paid should your box fry sometime before the end of 6 years.

So what is Old Transferable Lifetime worth now? It was worth under $369 ($299+70 for box new,) now its worth at least $469, maybe even $700.

So has TiVo hurt itself by setting the new prices? No.

Suppose TiVo set monthly at $14.95 and 8.95 (MSD). This would also raise the aftermarket value of Old Transferable Lifetime. Does this hurt TiVo? No.


The bottom line is that it is axiomatic that if it costs more to buy box/service on the secondary market, it raises the pricing umbrella for TiVo on new boxes.


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## dswallow

How about a declining scale monthly service charge? The first 4 years it's the $12.95/month (or $6.95 for additional units); then each year thereafter it drops $1/month down to no less than half of the regular pricing. Cancel service and restart it later or transfer it to another person/account and the clock starts over.


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## classicsat

Electronut said:


> Personally I think the new TiVo sub pricing plans are a joke. Why wouldn't anyone want to pay $300 up front for LIFETIME service as opposed to high monthly charges?
> 
> Do the math folks. Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers? Most of us that have Tivo's are looking to always stay subbed.


Yes they are, so TiVo can make revenue and be around to service boxes. Lifetime simply earns them no revenue for the service provided, after a period of time.

They are not a charity or a public service, they are a business.



> Think about it. Your paying a monthly fee for as long as you want to be subbed. That's nuts! Take the 3 year service @ $469 x next 30 years (10 terms) and that's $4690!!! I picked 30 years for a random number since I'm 37. Hmmm..... should I go with that or a lifetime sub at $300? If you don't prepay the $495 up front then your looking at even worse numbers at $16.95 per month. $16.95 x 30 years (360 months) = $6102..Yikes!


But you can choose to get new hardware every 3 years. And if you have more than one DVR, you can put it on MSD after the commitment is up.



> TiVo just lost any opportunity to get more business out of me. Have my lifetime S2 but that looks like all I will have with them. I really don't see how this is a good thing at all.


A guess you missed whereTiVo basically said Lifetime, at its current price, is not a sustainable option for them, and a price sustainable for them, not palatable to their test market.



> Anyone that is cost conscious and knows what Tivo had in place with original $300 lifetime cost I can't see doing this. They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans.


They are giving the hardware away, essentially. That is the point of the bundles, although



> Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?


Yes, if they want to have money.


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## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> I don't think what Pony said is exactly what you said - esp. as per lifetime of the human...


The point I was getting at is that some users were confused. TIVO never said it was the lifetime of the humans. But some humans perceived it that way.

J


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## ChuckyBox

megazone said:


> The facts support TiVo's move. The large majority of TiVo subscribers are NOT lifetime, but monthly.


Actually, right now, existing customers are just about half and half: 51% pay monthly. Early on in the history of TiVo, about 70% of new customers took lifetime. That switched the last couple of years to about 70% lifetime. (Though last year seems to have been about 50-50.)

But I think a lot of people are confused because two different things are happening at once: 1) new pricing plans are being introduced, and 2) lifetime is going away. They are being done for very different reasons: 1) is to drive growth, 2) is about profitability.



> And when they trialed these new pricing plans last year, sales went *up*.


This point is lost on most of the people in this discussion, and needs to be empahsized, so I'm going to explain it. I am basing my explanation on things Tom Rogers, the CEO of TiVo, has said in the last two earnings calls and at a Citibank investor's conference in January.

TiVo wants to drive growth in the standalone business. Last fall they experimented with advertising and discovered two things: longer ads worked better -- the more they explained the product the better the response, all the way up to and including 30-minute infomercials. They also discovered that on-line advertising was extremely cost-effective for them. In other words, they found they could get people interested in the product. So far, so good.

But when people called in to sign up, many were put off by both paying for the box, and paying a monthly fee. The "conversion rate" -- the percentage of people who ended up buying after calling in -- was unsatisfying. So TiVo tried different pricing plans, including the "monthly only" plans that debut next week. They found the conversion rate was *three to five times* what they had been experiencing with the "hybrid" plans. Three to five times. Everybody got that?

Now TiVo is going to try this plan out in the broad market. If the response is anything like what they saw in the tests, they are going to borrow a bunch of money and hit the advertising very, very hard, because suddenly the advertising portion of SAC becomes three to five times cheaper, and fixed costs get spread out over more acquisitions.

But first there will be a few months of refining the options -- "six" plans may be too many, too confusing. They may adjust prices by a buck or two. They may bring back lifetime at a new cost. It will all depend on the consumer response to the plan.

For those of you predicting the death of TiVo (yet again), you may be looking at it from too personal a perspective. If you look at it from TiVo's perspective, based on the information they now have, it would be actively negligent for them not to do this.


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## DevilDogs

TiVoPony said:


> We agree, a press release isn't enough. The tivo.com website will be updated with all of the details, including a FAQ, when the new pricing plans start next week.
> 
> We could have just given you that answer - check back next week on tivo.com for the details - a lot of companies would.
> 
> Instead we're here, answering questions before the plans are officially available.
> 
> We'll apologize if you're not satisfied, but please don't take our participation here, or the information we share, for granted.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pony


Pony, I appreciate you and Ops answering questions here. Without you two, there would be even more confusion. That isn't what I meant. I would've preferred to not hear anything until Tivo was fully prepared to release info. Why release a little bit of info, when that is only going to create FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). I wish I hadn't had to wade through gobs of pages here to get the info. And I *still* have questions. There were some basic questions asked here that could've been answered by Tivo, on a Tivo web site.


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## Electronut

> Electronut, no disrespect intended, but I believe you've confused our company with Exxon. TiVo didn't make $36 Billion dollars in profit last year.
> 
> If your hypothesis is that Lifetime was a better deal, you're right. Nobody disputes that. But it was *too good* of a deal. It won't be offered going forward.
> 
> I'm sorry if that disturbs you. But we want to be around years from now to provide service to all of our customers, including those that have purchased Lifetime.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Pony - No disrespect from me either. I have been a TiVo fan for years. Hell....I got the little guy stuck on top of my car antenna now for a while now as well as the little stuffed guy on top of my S2 in my entertainment rack!

I realize you guys need to make money and I want you to be around a while but this new plan is not just a slight increase. It's significant for peeps that want to stay subbed for years to come and I think it's taking financial advantage of the consumer. The economics aren't there. Your better at this point in time to just get a DVR through your SAT or Cable company and pay their monthly fee.

What I am amazed to see is how your survey that favored this new pricing plan passed through. I guess peeps don't see the math the way I do. Understandably so, if TiVo Inc. needed to make more money to survive they should have just increased the lifetime subs by $50 or $100. That still works out better than the new pricing plan.

I'll I know is that I would think the new plans will draw people further away from your product and service. This is the result it will have with me. Also realize, that I have passed on the Tivo product to freinds to get on board with your point referral program. I won't be doing that anymore either.

Sorry....everyone has a right to their own opinion and this is mine.


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## ChuckyBox

What is a price increase and what isn't?

Dropping the $299 lifetime is a price increase. Pure and simple.
The new pricing plans are not necessarily a price increase.
Dropping the 40-hour box is a (slight) price increase, though it results in a box with a bigger hard drive, so it is more or less a wash.

HDTiVo: Your analysis of the cost of replicating your current setup is driven almost entirely by the elimination of the lifetime option, and has almost nothing to do with the new pricing plans. (Looked at from that perspective, you can see how much the lifetime option is costing TiVo; that must be balanced, of course, by how many subscribers they won't sign up because there is no lifetime option, but they are about to find that out. If it is significant, lifetime will be back.)

Billy66: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the unbundled hardware price is going up because of the difference between $224 and ~$240 for monthly, i.e. $16. Is that what you are saying? If so, you need to take into account the NPV of $224 vs. $20/month. Given TiVo's WACC (or the customer's, if you want to look at it from that angle), it is pretty much a wash.


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## cptodd

dswallow said:


> How about a declining scale monthly service charge? The first 4 years it's the $12.95/month (or $6.95 for additional units); then each year thereafter it drops $1/month down to no less than half of the regular pricing. Cancel service and restart it later or transfer it to another person/account and the clock starts over.


This is your second good idea in this tread in my opinion (the first being $35 per month for a HDTiVo).


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## Billy66

Nope. 

For the one year bundle example it's a break even. Every other situation is an increase. Current cost of 80 hour box less rebate =$70. Current lifetime=$299. Max cost of box plus infinite service=$369.

Bundled, they want $369 as the upfront price for 2 years only, not the life. If you pay by the month instead of upfront, it's $455. For three years bundled they want $469 upfront (already $100 more than today), or $610 if you pay by the month. 

Service only pricing is the same for the service only. Total cost of ownership increases when TiVo takes away the rebate subsidies that have been with this product more than not.

As it is I wouldn't see why anyone would commit to more than one year on bundle, then re-up for the next year commitment at $12.95 and then let the commitment expire. 

It's ok for them to raise prices. For them to call it something else is kinda funny. They have reduced the barrier to entry with the bundles, that's for sure, but they increased the price while removing that barrier. People buy things like this so it will be interesting.


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## ChuckyBox

HDTiVo: I've read your posts about the profitablility of lifetime service, and though I have not had time yet to run the numbers, you are ignoring three important factors:

1) You do not include the cost of capital, ROI, or risk. If I buy a hunk of gold for $1,000,000 and then a year later I sell it for $1,000,000, did I really break even? (Hint: the answer isn't "yes.")

2) You calculation of the break even point for TiVo (+450K subs), you are assuming a certain number of monthly subs (as well as a base of monthly subs). The monthlys have to be in there because the lifetime subs drag down the ARPU. When looked at this way, it is pretty clear that monthly subs are subsidizing the lifetimes. So if TiVo adds 450K monthly subs, they are well above breakeven, if they add 450K lifetimes, they are well below. If you assign fixed costs on a categorized-subscriber basis (rather than on an average-subscriber basis) you will get a very different number for how much TiVo makes on lifetime subs.

3) TiVo amortizes lifetime subs over four years. ARPU is controlled by monthly subs (mostly $12.95, some $6.95), lifetime (about $6.23), and active lifetime beyond 4 years ($0.00) (and yes, they count those). Last I recall, there were about 80,000 of the $0 lifetimes, but that number is constantly growing, as TiVo's growth has accelerated of the last four years. Given this, you see that for TiVo's ARPU to remain constant, they must add more and more monthly subscribers. Again, this factor affects the breakeven point, and the profitability of the lifetime subs.


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## bostlaw

It seems to me that all of this posting is interesting, but "slightly" irrelevant ... TiVo loses money on lifetime subs...so, it stops selling lifetime subs...Makes perfect sense... The vast majority of people posting on this thread have had Tivo for a considerable period of time, and have lifetime subs already on their existing units if they want it... TiVo wants to attract new subs by offering a pricing scheme that doesn't cost too much for hardware up front... Effectively financing the hardward aquisition through the monthly fee structure accomplishes that to some extent... So, that makes sense too... It seems to me that the more important question will be what the Series 3 pricing schemes look like... I really don't think that there will be a huge influx of new subscribers based upon $17, $19, and $20 per month charges for old technology...Sure, lots of people will continue to have standard def TV for a long time...because they either don't care about HD, or because it remains cost prohibitive...My opinion is that those people are also not the type of consumer who will go out and pay $17, $19, or $20 per month for Tivo service...especially not for old technology... It's kinda like attempting to coax people up the loading ramp for a boat that left the harbor long ago...The market has been missed...It's time to retool and catch the next wave at the proper time... If nothing else, TiVo exhibits a bit more economic wisdom by implementing pricing schemes that would appear to be more financially viable... The picture becomes complete when the other shoe drops and we see what the plan is for new equipment... Until then, the canvas isn't finished, and all we are doing is moaning about an incomplete work in progress... Oh, I know that there will be those who trash me for posting this opinion...The good news is that I probably won't get to read them for a bit...have a few subs to go upgrade to lifetime now...


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## Stylin

ChuckyBox said:


> Actually, right now, existing customers are just about half and half: 51% pay monthly. Early on in the history of TiVo, about 70% of new customers took lifetime. That switched the last couple of years to about 70% lifetime. (Though last year seems to have been about 50-50.)
> 
> But I think a lot of people are confused because two different things are happening at once: 1) new pricing plans are being introduced, and 2) lifetime is going away. They are being done for very different reasons: 1) is to drive growth, 2) is about profitability.
> 
> This point is lost on most of the people in this discussion, and needs to be empahsized, so I'm going to explain it. I am basing my explanation on things Tom Rogers, the CEO of TiVo, has said in the last two earnings calls and at a Citibank investor's conference in January.
> 
> TiVo wants to drive growth in the standalone business. Last fall they experimented with advertising and discovered two things: longer ads worked better -- the more they explained the product the better the response, all the way up to and including 30-minute infomercials. They also discovered that on-line advertising was extremely cost-effective for them. In other words, they found they could get people interested in the product. So far, so good.
> 
> But when people called in to sign up, many were put off by both paying for the box, and paying a monthly fee. The "conversion rate" -- the percentage of people who ended up buying after calling in -- was unsatisfying. So TiVo tried different pricing plans, including the "monthly only" plans that debut next week. They found the conversion rate was *three to five times* what they had been experiencing with the "hybrid" plans. Three to five times. Everybody got that?
> 
> Now TiVo is going to try this plan out in the broad market. If the response is anything like what they saw in the tests, they are going to borrow a bunch of money and hit the advertising very, very hard, because suddenly the advertising portion of SAC becomes three to five times cheaper, and fixed costs get spread out over more acquisitions.
> 
> But first there will be a few months of refining the options -- "six" plans may be too many, too confusing. They may adjust prices by a buck or two. They may bring back lifetime at a new cost. It will all depend on the consumer response to the plan.
> 
> For those of you predicting the death of TiVo (yet again), you may be looking at it from too personal a perspective. If you look at it from TiVo's perspective, based on the information they now have, it would be actively negligent for them not to do this.


Best explaination of TiVo's strategy so far - Thank you.
Whether or not I think it's going to work is a mute point. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## classicsat

Is there/will there be a prepaid service only option for already owned DVRs? I can't afford Lifetime at this time, but would like something that I can pay some up front, and save a little.


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## bidger

The one week time frame for elimination of Lifetime strikes me as odd. Prior to this, TiVo gave a lot earlier notification of changes in their service plan pricing. I remember knowing well in advance that Lifetime would be going up from $199 to $249 when I bought a D-TiVo 5 years ago. I find it hard to understand why the same courtesy isn't extended now that it's being eliminated. Would giving subscribers until the end of the month to purchase Lifetime put that much more financial strain on TiVo?


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## ChuckyBox

Got it. Thanks. I agree that dropping lifetime is a price increase.



Billy66 said:


> For the one year bundle example it's a break even. Every other situation is an increase. Current cost of 80 hour box less rebate =$70. Current lifetime=$299. Max cost of box plus infinite service=$369.
> 
> Bundled, they want $369 as the upfront price for 2 years only, not the life. If you pay by the month instead of upfront, it's $455. For three years bundled they want $469 upfront (already $100 more than today), or $610 if you pay by the month.


This is a bit of apples and oranges. If you do the same kind of analysis today (lifetime vs. monthly) you get the same result. You could even argue that since you can sell the lifetime box for the price of lifetime, the cost of lifetime is zero (minus what you would have earned on your $299, minus depreciation on the box, minus the risk that the box would really, really die), and the cost of monthly is $12.95/month (minus depreciation on the box).



> Service only pricing is the same for the service only. Total cost of ownership increases when TiVo takes away the rebate subsidies that have been with this product more than not.


While I think rebates may go away near-term (they did last year, too), I'm not certain that they are going away forever. And since you can accomplish the same thing you could today by getting the 1-year bundle and then switching to $12.95, the box is still subsidized to the same extent. So I'm not sure how this is a price increase.



> As it is I wouldn't see why anyone would commit to more than one year on bundle, then re-up for the next year commitment at $12.95 and then let the commitment expire.


The three-year pre-pay is cheaper.


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## ChuckyBox

classicsat said:


> Is there/will there be a prepaid service only option for already owned DVRs? I can't afford Lifetime at this time, but would like something that I can pay some up front, and save a little.


Yes, they have said there will be. They have not yet announced pricing.

Edit: And when they do announce pricing, we're going to all have to redo all of the calculations we've been arguing about. (I'm guessing you'll get $10 to $20 off by prepaying 1 year, $30 to $50 off of 2, and $70 to $100 off of 3 years.)


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## Billy66

ChuckyBox said:


> The three-year pre-pay is cheaper.


And there we have it. For the pay up front crowd, the three year upfront is the best deal. Unfortunately for them, the pay upfront model is now for 3 years instead of box life and costs $100 more.

The pay monthly crowd. That group that to date believed that a 23 month commitment was too much of a risk (or they likely would have been lifetime no?). Now must either switch their preference to pay upfront, or incur an increase of $74 (19%) over buying and going monthly now.

What there is, and what is good, is a new way to own. A no barrier to entry model. If you've got 17 bucks you can have TiVo. For those that weren't affected by that barrier, there is a price increase.


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## Rottluver

bidger said:


> The one week time frame for elimination of Lifetime strikes me as odd. Prior to this, TiVo gave a lot earlier notification of changes in their service plan pricing. I remember knowing well in advance that Lifetime would be going up from $199 to $249 when I bought a D-TiVo 5 years ago. I find it hard to understand why the same courtesy isn't extended now that it's being eliminated. Would giving subscribers until the end of the month to purchase Lifetime put that much more financial strain on TiVo?


In all honesty, it "appears" to me that this is their way of sneaking it in without telling a lot of people. Aside from this forum (which I found by a total fluke) I would not have known about it except that I got an email from an aftermarket parts company that I have used to upgrade my Tivos.......and it didn't come until yesterday or Thursday at the earliest. So it seems to me that they are just sliding this in under the radar.

Let's be realistic, how many lifetime subscribers are there compared to how many lifetime subscriber members here on the board? And if you don't check in every day, which I do not, it is EASY to miss this deadline. I am still trying to decide if I want to fire up my 3rd Series 1 box and pay the lifetime fee just in case or take my chances with the 2 I have and just switch to an HD DVR thru DTV whenever I get around to buying an HD TV. :shrug:

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Tivo's but I am not prepared to add another $12-16 a month to what I already pay for DTV/NFL SUnday Ticket.


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## dtreese

Hey, call me selfish, but as an owner of 2 lifetime units, I'm glad that TiVo is willing to say "We can't do this anymore, or we'll go out of business." It protects my subscription. They're trying to sell an attractive product and still honor their previous commitments. TiVo is one of the few companies I can think of where early adopters are rewarded for being loyal customers. I'm not talking about TiVo rewards -- I'm talking about value added to existing units through software upgrades and new features. Now, they're once again protecting early adopters by working to ensure the continued existence of the company. With every cable company trying to pawn of crappy imitations of TiVo on customers, they've got some competition to go up against. This is actually a good move for current customers, because it increases the likelihood of continued service.


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## HDTiVo

DevilDogs said:


> Pony, I appreciate you and Ops answering questions here. Without you two, there would be even more confusion. That isn't what I meant. I would've preferred to not hear anything until Tivo was fully prepared to release info. Why release a little bit of info, when that is only going to create FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). I wish I hadn't had to wade through gobs of pages here to get the info. And I *still* have questions. There were some basic questions asked here that could've been answered by Tivo, on a Tivo web site.


Like the way the S3 is being handled...is anyone asking stuff like what's the most mb/sec I can get transfering shows with the S3?

No.

Why? Because TiVo announced there will be an S3, but that no more details will be released at this time. When the S3 is ready to ship, and TiVo (hopefully!) has prepared all the information in advance about it for release, there will not be such confusion like we had these last two weeks with KZ and End of Lifetime.


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## HDTiVo

Chucky & Billy:

Thank you, you both have brought a wonderful breath of clear fresh air into this discusion. I have obviously not been able to articulate what I am trying to say nearly as well.

Chucky:

Financials

Please note that my 450K sub add number is at the company's ARPU. It therefore represents the current mix of subscriptions. The data we have is that the percentage of Lifetime subs is droping over time in the mix, meaning the current business model's trend is already becoming more favorable to TiVo. *Note also that ARPU increased by $.07 from $8.76 in FY05 to $8.83 in FY06, despite the fact that more Lifetime units went end of life for accounting purposes. The less profitable Lifetime is becoming less a factor for TiVo on its own.*

While ARPU was going up, on the cost side, ACPU (Cost of service revenues divided by average TiVo-Owned subscriptions) dropped $.74 from $2.99 in FY05 to $2.25 in FY06.

Service margins *AMPU increased* in FY06 to $6.56 vs $5.77 in FY05.

*The current business model has led to a 13.7% increase in operating profits per subscriber in the last fiscal year. That's with Lifetime as it was and everything else.*

A declining percentage of people will be taking Lifetime in the future because the expected lifetime of an analog box is declining simply because analog TV is getting closer to its end of life. The S3 will partially obsolete the S2, further driving S2 life down. The data are that recently 26% of new subs went Lifetime vs. 51% in the overall sub base.

Strategy

I am completely in agreement with the concept presented up until this week of ALL upfront and NO upfront pricing. You did an excellent job summing up what Rogers has said.

The first part of the strategy is the mechanics involved in purchasing a box. The old mechanics were too complex and for a variety of reasons - that are generally well known in the business world outside of TiVo - led to poor efficiency in marketing, meaning *TiVo spent alot of money and didn't get nearly enough customers for that money.*

I expected the new mechanics to be similar to what they are as announced. There are some details - in the fine print - that are not what I consider proper.

The second part of the strategy involves price points and terms. Here the price points are much higher than I expected. In addition, *there is not an ALL upfront plan at all.* There are only all upfront temporary plans. Not the same. That leads back to bad purchasing mechanics (part 1) where fees start again down the road. _I won't even get into the issue of how TiVo is doing those post-contract fees!_

In summary, I have argued that *TiVo's old price model was going to work in time. Had the new model been as expected, things would have really taken off as the market research showed. As it is, I am not so sure.*


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## BigJimOutlaw

Removing Lifetime = price increase. No way around it. They've said themselves it was "too good a deal." 
No MSD on bundles = price increase (though, technically the bundles didn't exist before now, so whether it's an "increase" could be debated)

I haven't seen explained why they can't do MSD on bundled packages. They could subtract $6/mo (or prepaid equivalent) just the same. I don't see how this does anything but hurt multiple unit purchases.


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## samo

HDTiVo said:


> In summary, I have argued that *TiVo's old price model was going to work in time. Had the new model been as expected, things would have really taken off as the market research showed. As it is, I am not so sure.*


Assume for a moment that TiVo is sole proprietorship. Let's also assume that you are sole owner of the company. In past 8 years you dumped $800 million of your own money into the company. How much more time you would give old model to work? Would you be happy with break even? How much profit would you consider being enough? $10 million a year? Probably not - you can do better on your checking account. $40 million? You could have invested your money in long term bonds with almost no risk and do better than that. $100 million a year? Now we start talking. How many more subs TiVo needs to get to $100 million a year mark? Can you get to this point with old model? Absolutely not. It is either changing business model or go under. I don't know if new model will be more profitable than old one, but old one is proven not to work and there is no chance that old model would give TiVo owner (shareholders) any hope of getting money back and make some profit in reasonable time span.


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## rahvin

These pricing schemes aren't going to help TIVO remain profitable. What they are going to do is drive customers away. No one in their right mind is going to pay three to four times what the cable and satelite providers are charging. Although the interface is appealing the other boxes are cheap enough that all but the most hardcore TIVO people are going to find the new pricing acceptable.

I have no doubt TIVO did market research on this. I also have no doubt they did it in the Bay area probably using their pre-registered TIVO beta tester pool. The bay area isn't going to represent what people in the rest of america, where wages aren't insane, are going to be willing to pay and the regiestered beta tester pool is going to be primarily TIVO fanboi's. There is no way Bestbuy and the other retailers are going to carry a product that has a $20 price per month and occupies so much shelf space unless Tivo kicks them back a huge incentive (like double or triple what cellphones provide, which is upwards of a $100), so the retail market for Tivo will be dead within a month of this plan going active. 

Doesn't really matter as I don't doubt this is the CEO's plan to eliminate the direct sales, standalone, model so they can dramatically reduce staff and focus completely on service to the box providers (and more lawsuits?), cable co's and (if their lawsuit against DISH is successful) the satellite providers. No doubt this is what the institutional shareholders are telling them to do afterall, if I was a shareholder that's what I would want them to do as they have amply proved it is their only possibility for profitability. 

I appreciate the time that TIVO has provided a fantastic product to the market but that time is at an end and from what I've seen MythTV has grown enough that it will probably be very functional by the time TIVO elimates service to the standalone marketplace. 

Anyway, I wish everyone at TIVO good luck and hope you have your resume's polished just in case as you all no doubt will have good futures regardless of what happens with TIVO. (personally I project bankrupty, then the selling of the patent pool to an IP based lawsuit company that will sue everyone in the marketplace trying to extort money from them).


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## HDTiVo

Samo: 

The money is lost, gone, goodbye. They blew it. Does not factor into future decisions.

The old model would have started "working" before the end of this Fiscal Year, even with the "bad purchasing mechanics." Add in only the good purchasing mechanics, and TiVo takes off like a rocket. Increase prices modestly, fine; as much as they did, risk losing out to high pricing. Increase Lifetime to $349, fine; eliminate Lifetime entirely, risk even more.


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## HDTiVo

Rahvin:

You make an interesting read.

I have been turning over the idea that TiVo might really just want to kill off the S2 sales for the next 3 quarters; they could go back immediately to profitability like they did in 2Q06. 

Any residual S2 sales would be at much higher margins and not be sufficient in number to generate an overall loss due to the hardware expenses.


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## HDTiVo

I have been turning over the idea that TiVo might really just want to kill off the S2 sales for the next 3 quarters; they could go back immediately to profitability like they did in 2Q06. 

Any residual S2 sales would be at much higher margins and not be sufficient in number to generate an overall loss due to the hardware expenses.


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## neekoh

Not that anyone asked, but I thought I'd look at the future values of the bundling contracts to compare the best deals.	


Code:


       1-yr monthly     1-yr upfront    2-yr monthly     2-yr upfront   3-yr monthly     3-yr upfront 
	
Total  	$550.20         $534.80         $610.20          $524.40         $610.20         $469.00
paid 
after 
5 years

Future	$(562.27)       $(550.58)       $(623.58)        $(557.92)       $(623.58)       $(527.56)
Value 
of Total
Amount
Paid

Assumes $12.95/month after first bundling contract expires
Assume 4% discount rate
For the most part, WYSISWG on the total cost after 3 years. The anomaly comes in the 1 yr upfront vs 2 yr upfront -- it looks like you would pay $10 less by paying 2 yrs upfront, but since you could have used that money to invest at 4% somewhere else, you would actually save more by doing the 1-yr upfront. The 3-yr upfront is clearly the best deal (and TiVo is assuming they can get a better return on your upfront money).

It's interesting how TiVo priced the 2 year and 3 year monthly plans. You gain and lose nothing either way, and the difference is $2/month and these are the worst options there.

Since one only really saves less than $25 by going with the 3-yr upfront option vs the 1-year upfront, and $35 by going 1-yr monthly versus the 3-yr upfront option, it's probably best to go with the 1-yr options. This gives you an out after that year (but there's a big assumption that TiVo won't raise prices on the $12.95 service).

(TiVo must have decided that they can't justify a price higher than $19.95 (psychological price barrier) and tried to move down from there. This throws off the pricing for the 2-yr and 3-yr since you barely get any advantage for signing up with TiVo that long, and they didn't want to lower the prices for the 2-yr and 3-yr accordingly in order to wring out as much revenue as possible. (The 1-yr should be at least $26.95/mo. ))


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## neekoh

Rahvin,

As TiVo has no debt, I don't think bankruptcy is necessary. I think they got rid of lifetime subscriptions to streamline/clean up their balance sheet to prepare for other companies doing due diligence. It's going to be easier to value the company without these subs lying around.


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## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> I have been turning over the idea that TiVo might really just want to kill off the S2 sales for the next 3 quarters; they could go back immediately to profitability like they did in 2Q06.


Ahhh, the mythical Tivo profitable quarter again rises from the ashes...

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-05-183149&Type=HTML

Income from Operations: $ (449)

Tivo, to my knowledge, has _never_ made an operating profit.

Give me $200 million and I put it in the bank and earn $10 million in interest but I lose $5 million on operations, VIOLA! Profit. But not an _operating_ profit.

Granted, cost of revenues dropped as they killed off rebates and the silly marketing but SAC for the quarter? A whopping $201

Let's not perpetuate the myth of the Tivo profit. Profit from OPERATIONS is what matters and I can't find a single quarter Tivo actually achieved it.

_ITV


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## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Samo:
> 
> The money is lost, gone, goodbye. They blew it. Does not factor into future decisions.


 Absolutely correct.



HDTiVo said:


> The old model would have started "working" before the end of this Fiscal Year, even with the "bad purchasing mechanics." Add in only the good purchasing mechanics, and TiVo takes off like a rocket.


 Absolutely false. After SAC, on average, Tivo basically "made" $100 per lifetime subscribed box. With the four year lifespan and Tivo has no control over upgrade cycles -- if the box chuggs on it chuggs on -- that gets Tivo about $2/month. Worse still, it helps keep current subscribers from upgrading to new hardware. The investment in the old hardware still has value.

HDTivo: I haven't spent a bazillion hours on Tivo's financials but they've NEVER shown an operating profit and I'm not sure they would have anytime soon AND shown ANY sort of decent subscriber growth. You have truly yet to show -- and merely using units won't do it -- how Tivo could have made an OPERATING profit.

_ITV


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## DUSlider

Ok, I got sick of reading reply's after 10 pages and didn't see anyone break it down like this so here goes, if I smeeked so be it...

To me all that is happening is TIVO is getting rid of the lifetime service. Yes, this sucks but be honest, we were getting a hell of a deal, what is different from this compaired to increasing rates for cable/dtv etc....??

Break it down like this...

Say you normally pay $100 after rebate for an 80hr unit, so we'll subtract this from the bundled 3year PREPAID option of $469, which would be $369. Divide this by 36 (12mo/yr *3) and you are paying $10.25/mo for service.

What is good about this, since you aren't theoretically paying for the box you get a 3 year warranty out of the deal, so if it breaks you get a new box and don't have to pay anything.

Then when the 3 years is up, you can change to paying the normal $12.95/mo for service.

The questions I have are, if after the three years you decide to goto the $12.95/mo plan and your box dies do you have to buy a new one or will they give you one.

What if you don't change the plan and keep paying $16.95/mo, is it still considered a rental? Would they give you a new box free of charge if it breaks?

In summary, the lifetime is going away, we knew this was going to happen. Otherwise, I don't see the big deal?


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## mchips

I've been reading a few of these posts here, and I've finally decided to say something.

People, who have done absolutely no research on their own think they know better than the professionals who have... it's like, what crystal ball are you looking at? It's people who haven't truly examined the facts, but instead are jumping to erroneous and unsubstantiated conclusions that this is going to be the death of TiVo... I don't think it will be...

And trying to compare TiVo to the less-evolved cable company's DVR is like trying to compare steak to a hamburger and expecting that they should cost the same.

People are acting like this is a new concept and that the prices have gone up... both couldn't be further from the truth... once all of the facts are out on the table, the only thing that is different is there is no more Lifetime, and people now have additional pricing options to make it _easier_ to get a TiVo, in addition to what's already been there. Everything else is pretty much the same... and now more people can afford it...

People can still pay cash for the hardware and opt for the service-only pricing, as we do now.

TiVo graciously gave everyone a week's notice; Lifetime wasn't just pulled out from under everyone without any warning... you don't see something like that very often; usually a company changes its plans and you find out about them the day they go into effect.

When you go out to buy a car, some are going to cost more than others... you get what you pay for... and in many markets, the price difference between the less-evolved cable DVR and TiVo will be minimal.

People will be able to get a box home for as little as $16.95, if that's all they can afford upfront, and are willing to pay that for the next three years (compare it to buying a TiVo on credit):

Anyone who buys anything on credit, is always paying more than if they'd paid cash for the item... that's the American way... 

My first month, just over three years ago, cost me almost $400 for each S2 TiVo, and then $12.95 for each month for each TiVo after that until the MSD was conceived. I paid almost $800 my first month... ouch... 

Next week, someone can take home two TiVo's for just under $34. What cost me almost $800 three years ago, someone will now be able to do for less than $40. Wow! I can see many people who don't have the large upfront cash and/or credit seeing this as a _really_ good thing.

TiVo can now tap into a market/user base that previously wasn't available to them... those that cannot afford the large upfront costs, which I imagine would be _huge_. Over half of the American population cannot get credit on their own...

Then I realized the actual prepaid options, respectively as follows, with the following savings for those that want to prepay, and can afford to do so:

* $19.95 x 12 = $239.40 - $224 prepay = $ 15.40 savings, not a great incentive to prepay, but still almost 1 month free as a result

* $18.95 x 24 = $454.80 - $369 prepay = $ 85.80 savings, sounding better

* $16.95 x 36 = $610.20 - $469 prepay = $141.20 savings, now we're talking

* $12.95 current monthly * 36 = $466.20

For those willing and able to prepay for three years, the hardware cost is only:

* $469 - $466.20 = $2.80 (not bad)

TiVo actually costs less now than it did just 3 years ago when you factor in both hardware and service costs... and people are hearing about TiVo more and more, and as more people get it, that's more people pitching it to their friends and family... the more people that get it, the higher TiVo's profit margin, the less we may all end up paying as a result as TiVo is able to drop their prices and still remain profitable... so this is good for everyone...

For years, I couldn't justify spending the money for a TiVo... I wanted a TiVo because of what I'd heard about them, but I couldn't see how it could be worth that much money (and at that time, we were talking hundreds of dollars as an initial investment instead of the now less than $20 initial investment). After getting one, and seeing how it was worth it, I went out less than two weeks later and bought another one, and now I have four.

The new pricing structure makes it easier for people to get a TiVo into their homes, and as a result I can see more people doing it that otherwise wouldn't or couldn't have.

TiVo is not going to be for everyone, as nothing ever is, but I do see this increasing their user base... as a matter of fact, I can see TiVo getting more new subscribers with these bundled plans than those they may lose as a result of no more Lifetime. We don't have the numbers that TiVo has to know how big of an impact Lifetime has and will make, but remember that they do, and you don't... Bottom line, with any company, the goal is to find the right balance between price and growth to equal a maximum profit. TiVo isn't a public service; we have to keep it real... 

People often make empty threats, like they're going to drop TiVo... some may follow-through on that threat, but I seriously doubt that most will, if any do, and that's a big _if_, no matter what I see people say.

*Now, when someone is considering a TiVo, and they don't have the large spare cash, they only have to decide if they want to commit to a 1, 2 or 3-year term to either pay $19.95, $18.95 or $16.95 per month respectively.*

Just like when I got my cell phone... if I committed to a 2-year term instead of a 1-year term I got unlimited calling to others with the same carrier. If I just went with a 1-year commitment, it would have cost me an additional $5 per month.

This is not a new concept, so it shouldn't be this hard for some people to grasp, now that we have all of the facts (I was a little confused at first, too)... it seems to me like people often want to find fault, and so they do, however misguided that may be. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, so please don't start flaming on me for it. I think maybe some people might want to examine their motives for such heated opposition to this... the only thing that is different is no more Lifetime, and therefore is completely unjustified for people to be tearing the remainder of the pricing structure apart (except by those that sincerely, and innocently, do not understand it).

This only makes it easier for a huge segment of our population to get a TiVo into their homes as well, that previously did not have the means to do it...

Who knows... if TiVo increases their user base and begins to consistently turn a profit, they may be able to introduce a Lifetime option again in the future that would still enable them to be profitable.

*Increasing TiVo's user base, which in turns increases TiVo's profit margin, which could result in lower prices, only helps us all... so, I think people might be better suited in trying to get more people interested in TiVo, rather than expending so much energy in turning people away... you're only hurting yourself in the long run if you succeed.*

Btw, kudos to the TiVo team in having to deal with such heated opposition to what I see as a great addition to the already existing pricing plans, and long live TiVo! 

*edit:*
Anyone who hasn't seen the new pricing FAQ can check it out by clicking here.


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> Ahhh, the mythical Tivo profitable quarter again rises from the ashes...
> 
> http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-05-183149&Type=HTML
> 
> Let's not perpetuate the myth of the Tivo profit. Profit from OPERATIONS is what matters and I can't find a single quarter Tivo actually achieved it.
> 
> _ITV


    
First I can't use operating profits in my debate.

Now I can't use net profits.

  

Not easy dealing with such Prophets.


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## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> Absolutely false.
> 
> HDTivo: I haven't spent a bazillion hours on Tivo's financials


Absolutely wrong ( except for the first statement)

If you haven't done the work, I don't understand how you can presume to refute me with such repeated fervor and certainty.


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## HDTiVo

Folks:

It is clear I am debating against a Philosophy. It is not practical to debate against someone's religious or philosophical beliefs. I will no longer make the effort.

My future posts on business issues will be about what happens to TiVo under the new business model, since that model is now a fact of life anyway.


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## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Absolutely wrong ( except for the first statement)
> 
> If you haven't done the work, I don't understand how you can presume to refute me with such repeated fervor and certainty.


 Well, for one, you refer to RETURNING to profitability, which is a farce at best.

We are both talking about operational profits as interest income has nothing to do with lifetime, SAC, or anything else under the sun except the amount of cash Tivo has in the bank from selling more stock to the willing. On that basis, Tivo has never made a single dime. There is no profitability to return to.

Secondly, beyond 20 years of financial experience, Tivo's MODEL was flawed. I can do the math -- and have done the basic math here a few times now showing how Tivo's current take from a lifetime sub was about $100 to be spread ever so thinly over 4 or more years. We can SPECULATE on the future expected lifespan of boxes but we KNOW Tivo uses four years (I've had one for over 5 now).

Thirdly, you have made errors in your assumptions by fixing variables that should not remain fixed.

I can refute something I can see as incorrect without having gone through everything searching for a way to make Tivo profitable.

I might be able to build a spreadsheet that gets Tivo to profitability. It would take tens of hours (or lots more) and prove absolutely NOTHING. We don't know the manufacturing agreements, distribution agreements, contracts signed, etc.. We don't know the employee salaries and the hardware and network needs. We don't know which employees are dedicated to future projects and which are needed for maintenance and upkeep.

You make it seem like Tivo COULD be profitable and just doesn't want to. I find that silly. Tivo WANTS to be profitable. Tivo's shareholders -- I'm not one -- wants Tivo to be profitable. Unfortunately, with the (still) current model, in the current competitive landscape, that wasn't happening.

I have NOT been Tivo corporate's biggest fan. I LOVE my Tivos. Absolutely but I haven't been kind to Tivo's corporate decisions. However, I do believe Tivo WANTS to be profitable. I believe they are (yet again) trying something to find the magic recipe. It's not easy.

If you truly believe you have that magic formula, spelled out, dotted the i and crossed your t, then bless you. It's not as simple as raising lifetime and selling more boxes or getting to a certain installed base. Tivo isn't DirecTV with huge fixed costs and little variable (after SAC).

If you KNOW how to make Tivo profitable, every Tivo shareholder should pitch in and send you $10 and have you go over there and do it. You would KNOW something that no one else does.

How can I presume to know you don't have that magic forumula? You're right. I can't. Until I see it, I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt I haven't given Tivo management for years -- and they knew all the neccesary internal numbers you don't. They didn't have it and they tried a whole bunch of things.

Prove me wrong. I'm sure more than one Tivo shareholder on this board will be eternally grateful to you.

My presumption is your hubris is well intentioned but misplaced. I've run companies, I've owned companies, I've advised companies, I've invested in them. There is ALWAYS someone smarter than me in the room and that's a good thing. Sitting here I can say what's WRONG but that doesn't mean I know what's RIGHT.

In that sense, I've had it easy as the Tivo Army has defended Tivo while I pointed out the missteps and errors. Knowing what's wrong doesn't mean I can FIX IT.

You think you can FIX IT? You really think you KNOW how to make Tivo profitable -- something NO ONE ELSE has EVER been able to do...

Maybe you can. I haven't seen it. So yes, I presume to refute it. Prove me wrong. Prove everyone wrong. Prove that you KNOW how to make Tivo profitable. If you have your 1,000 line Excel spreadsheet ready, send it along.

_ITV


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## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> First I can't use operating profits in my debate.
> 
> Now I can't use net profits.
> 
> 
> 
> Not easy dealing with such Prophets.


 Well, considering Tivo never MADE and operating profit, I'm not sure why YOU can't use it but Tivo can't.

I'm sure you see what referring to Tivo's profitable quarter is a farce as OPERATIONALLY Tivo never made a profit.

 all you want. It's not a debate, it's a fact. Tivo never made an operational profit and THAT is it's goal. Everything else is PR, not ongoing concern.

_ITV


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## Mobahr

I can't say I'm crying that lifetime may be no more. My lifetime lasted 14 months. My box modem is broken and the warranty was for 12 mos. In order to transfer my lifetime, I must purchase a new box for $149 plus return my box to them so they can refurbish and resell it. Somehow I just don't see that as a fair deal for me. They could at least prorate the fee. I hate to say it, but I'm bugged enough that I may get cable DVR. I never thought I'd say that.


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## megazone

classicsat said:


> Is there/will there be a prepaid service only option for already owned DVRs? I can't afford Lifetime at this time, but would like something that I can pay some up front, and save a little.


Stephen said that there will be 1-, 2-, and 3-year prepaid service only plans as well, with pricing to be announced next week.


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## megazone

ChuckyBox said:


> Actually, right now, existing customers are just about half and half: 51% pay monthly. Early on in the history of TiVo, about 70% of new customers took lifetime. That switched the last couple of years to about 70% lifetime. (Though last year seems to have been about 50-50.)


The 80% monthly figure was from one of their conference calls last year. I believe it was that their current subscription ratio was 80% monthly, and that was increasing, with the percentage of people signing up for lifetime declining. Especially after the MSD was introduced - a lot of people who might've gone with lifetime on additional boxes started going monthly instead.


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## tazzftw

This has already been observed in here, but I just felt like saying it again.

People who are angry about the lack of lifetime: "Now I can't make a return off the fees I paid by selling it off on eBay. When I first purhased a TiVo, I expected my net spending to be zero. Now it isn't! GRR!"


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## megazone

interactiveTV said:


> Throwing around the word "ignorant" usually ends badly...


True. 



> http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-05-240039&Type=HTML
> "The percent of cumulative TiVo-Owned subscriptions paying recurring fees was 51% during the quarter, an increase of 5% from the same period last year, due to the fact that 74% of TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions chose a monthly fee option"
> 
> And yes, I agree with you that 450K more subs would not have made Tivo profitable.


I'd read that, the 80% figure came from one of the con call's last year. The trend was reported as a growing favor for monthly. I don't know if it fluctuated - higher than 74% previously, or what. Still, 74% is a significant majority of uses going for monthly. And the overall upward trend in the percentage of monthly subscribers from 40% in early 2004 to 51% in the most recent report, shows that monthly has been the preferred option for a while.

Still, lifetime itself has been a bad deal for TiVo for some time, which is what made it such a great deal for subscribers. I am not at all surprised to see it go, though I was personally hoping they'd raise the price instead, I was sure it would come to one of those two options. (I really didn't think they'd kill it outright.)

And it isn't like those 20-26% of users are all going to walk away from TiVo now that lifetime is unavailable. I'd be willing to wager than the majority of them will simply opt for one of the new bundled plans, or the forthcoming prepaid service-only plans. And some small percentage will give up on TiVo and use some other solution. But that's fine - because TiVo is better off without them if the alternative is having to sell units at a loss, or a razor thin profit. The other sources of revenue - advertising, additional services, etc - aren't (yet) significant enough to subsidize the product and service.


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## megazone

tazzftw said:
 

> People who are angry about the lack of lifetime: "Now I can't make a return off the fees I paid by selling it off on eBay. When I first purhased a TiVo, I expected my net spending to be zero. Now it isn't! GRR!"


I don't think anyone expected the net spending to be zero, because there is depreciation and why would someone by a used box with lifetime for the same price as a new box with lifetime?

But it is a factor - renting vs owning. It is hardly unique to TiVo.

Say I pay $1,800 a month for a mortgage. Putting aside the advantages for tax deductions, etc, if I move out of that home I can sell it, and unless the market has tanked, I can at least make back a good deal of the money I put into the home, and if the market is good, turn a profit.

If I live in a nice apartment for $1,800 a month and I move out - I get nothing back.

So, yes, it is something to consider when you make a purchase. It is often better to buy than to lease or rent - for the consumer. If you have the option of paying $300 up front and having equity in the box, or paying $300 over a couple of years and having nothing to show for it other than the same use of the product, it is a no brainer which is better - unless you simply cannot afford the up front outlay of money. And it only gets better because the longer you have the box, the better that initial value becomes.

The problem is that, for TiVo, that initial expense is too low to be a profitable business. It isn't worth offering at that price. Do the option is to signficantly raise the price, or stop offering it. There are other factors involved - how lifetime impacts the product upgrade market, future revenues, etc. TiVo decided that the price to make lifetime viable, for them, made it unviable for the consumer market, so they killed it. Without knowing what the price point would have been it is hard to comment on that decision. Personally I'd find it easier to justify paying $600 for lifetime than $470 for three years, because of the equity issue. Even if I resold it after three years, I'd probably make enough on the sale to have spent much less overall. But that's the problem for TiVo. If that unit keeps bouncing around, and with lifetime there is strong incentive to keep repairing it if it breaks (which only gets stronger if the price goes up), they see very little revenue (anything from additional products, ads, etc) from any of the new owners.

So, yes, some of us are sad to see lifetime go, because from our perspective it is a loss in value. Some are more upset than others. But many of us recognize the business reasons for the change and accept it as necessary.


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## bidger

tazzftw said:


> This has already been observed in here, but I just felt like saying it again.
> 
> People who are angry about the lack of lifetime: "Now I can't make a return off the fees I paid by selling it off on eBay. When I first purhased a TiVo, I expected my net spending to be zero. Now it isn't! GRR!"


I don't know if you're wagging your finger, but if so it's kind of hypocritical with two Lifetime units in your sig.


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## Troy J B

Sounds like I will be keeping my SVR-3000 with it's Lifetime service, getting a Series 3 bundled at 1 year prepay (plus another usb-wireless adapter), and then prepaying for a 3 year MSD (or else monthly if no prepay's for the MSD). Hurry up and release the Series 3 

btw, if lifetime was an option in the $700-1600 range, I might still bite. I really don't like paying
recurring fees...


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## rahvin

I have a question for all of you defending these actions. When TIVO switch's to a pricing model that is $20 a month instead of $xxx upfront, which retailers are going to continue to carry the product? A retailer must make money on a product and move a certain number or product per month to obtain shelf space at said retailer. A large consumer electronic, like the TIVO, occupies significant shelf space. To stock such a product a retailer is going to expect a significant gross revenue on the product. Satelite providers typically kick back from $50 to $100 for each subscription. Is TIVO going to do the same? If they don't they won't be getting shelf space. Time will tell but if Best Buy isn't getting their cut the TIVO loses it's shelf space. If no retailers carry them how are they going to sell them? 

The other thing you need to consider for a moment, at $12.95 TIVO was $2.50 more exepensive than a cable box (at least in my area). Of course the cable box doesn't hold a candle to the TIVO, but the cable box has two tuners. It's also a rental, it breaks they send you a new one, usually delivered by a real human being who would then install the box for you. The new TIVO is $20 a month, doesn't include cable or satelite and although it has a wonderful interface it's just not going to sell in middle america and for those that buy it and have it break in the first year aren't going to be happy having to send the box back to TIVO on their dime because they own the box they see themselves as renting. Maybe the new pricing will be a hit in california but I doubt anyone in the rest of america is going to wish to front that much cash every month as an addon to already overpriced television. 

I love TIVO as much as the rest of you but frankly the new pricing is a joke and I don't doubt the new pricing is going to go over like a load of bricks and has a good chance of burning the bridge with the retailers they have worked so hard to build a relationship with. I hope they prove me wrong but either way I've probably bought my last standalone. Personally I highly dislike situations where I'm put into a contract on a piece of electronics that will be lucky to live that long. When I bought lifetime I knew I took a risk but I woundn't have ever bought the box without the lifetime option.


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## tazzftw

bidger said:


> I don't know if you're wagging your finger, but if so it's kind of hypocritical with two Lifetime units in your sig.


And most of the people complaining already have Lifetime too.

What was a common reason for getting lifetime? The box has a higher resale value after we're done with it. Hell it's one reason I got both of my boxes like that. We complain that TiVo is greedy for doing this, and yet a reason we got it was for the same reason. Apparently a corporation trying to make money is bad, but if the customer tries to do something similar, it's good.

I'm just trying to look at it positively. I'm angry about it's end, but understanding.


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## surfcat

I don't see the point of renting-to-own a Tivo box that doesn't do anything unless you pay for the service.

In reality these charges make Tivo a joke in comparison to cable companies because they are just so expensive on a monthly basis. 

The cable companies are going to eat Tivo alive and I guess soon we'll be seeing cable co adverts gloating about how their service costs half of what Tivo costs, can record two shows at once, can record HD and so on. Its going to be a massacre.


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## tazzftw

rahvin said:


> I have a question for all of you defending these actions. When TIVO switch's to a pricing model that is $20 a month instead of $xxx upfront, which retailers are going to continue to carry the product? A retailer must make money on a product and move a certain number or product per month to obtain shelf space at said retailer. A large consumer electronic, like the TIVO, occupies significant shelf space. To stock such a product a retailer is going to expect a significant gross revenue on the product. Satelite providers typically kick back from $50 to $100 for each subscription. Is TIVO going to do the same? If they don't they won't be getting shelf space. Time will tell but if Best Buy isn't getting their cut the TIVO loses it's shelf space. If no retailers carry them how are they going to sell them?
> 
> The other thing you need to consider for a moment, at $12.95 TIVO was $2.50 more exepensive than a cable box (at least in my area). Of course the cable box doesn't hold a candle to the TIVO, but the cable box has two tuners. It's also a rental, it breaks they send you a new one, usually delivered by a real human being who would then install the box for you. The new TIVO is $20 a month, doesn't include cable or satelite and although it has a wonderful interface it's just not going to sell in middle america and for those that buy it and have it break in the first year aren't going to be happy having to send the box back to TIVO on their dime because they own the box they see themselves as renting. Maybe the new pricing will be a hit in california but I doubt anyone in the rest of america is going to wish to front that much cash every month as an addon to already overpriced television.
> 
> I love TIVO as much as the rest of you but frankly the new pricing is a joke and I don't doubt the new pricing is going to go over like a load of bricks and has a good chance of burning the bridge with the retailers they have worked so hard to build a relationship with. I hope they prove me wrong but either way I've probably bought my last standalone. Personally I highly dislike situations where I'm put into a contract on a piece of electronics that will be lucky to live that long. When I bought lifetime I knew I took a risk but I woundn't have ever bought the box without the lifetime option.


The zero-upfront thing is just for TiVo.com, but I see your point. If sales at retailers drop as a direct result of this new plan, then they have every right to be ticked. However, the new plan is the only way for some people to actually be able to afford TiVo, which means they wouldn't have been buying from the store anyway.

As for the cable box comparison, I'm not sure if you mean DVR. Nonetheless, while the box is $10 a month, you're also paying $50+ for their cable service at least, which is significantly more than a TiVo service plan. But I do want to know how much the customer has to pay to have it fixed under warrenty.


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## tazzftw

surfcat said:


> I don't see the point of renting-to-own a Tivo box that doesn't do anything unless you pay for the service.
> 
> In reality these charges make Tivo a joke in comparison to cable companies because they are just so expensive on a monthly basis.
> 
> The cable companies are going to eat Tivo alive and I guess soon we'll be seeing cable co adverts gloating about how their service costs half of what Tivo costs, can record two shows at once, can record HD and so on. Its going to be a massacre.


Perhaps they should have waited to introduce this price model for S3?


----------



## surfcat

tazzftw said:


> As for the cable box comparison, I'm not sure if you mean DVR. Nonetheless, while the box is $10 a month, you're also paying $50+ for their cable service at least, which is significantly more than a TiVo service plan. But I do want to know how much the customer has to pay to have it fixed under warrenty.


I think you will find that a Tivo box is useless without content to record so what you are saying is just nonsense.


----------



## surfcat

tazzftw said:


> Perhaps they should have waited to introduce this price model for S3?


Its just going to get much much worse when the S3 comes out.

The S3 boxes will cost hundreds more than the S2 boxes. What is Tivo going to do then - say to people that they should pay several times what they could pay for a cable box just for the honor of having a Tivo?


----------



## frazzledglispa

Whew, what a thread! 

Personally, I like having the option of getting a new box without paying up front. I've been wanting to pick up another Tivo for awhile now, but then I did my taxes. Eek, have to save up to pay those by April, which means no fun stuff for awhile. 

I bought my current 40hr Tivo in 2004. At the time I wasn't sure how much I would like it, what the quality of the equipment was, etc... so there was NO way I was going to fork over $300 bucks for lifetime service. I tend to have low expectations for the quality and durability of electronic equipment these days, so I didn't expect much. 

About a month ago the hard drive died in my unit. Well, there you go, I thought. After some research I heard about Instant Cake, ordered the software, and started searching for a computer I could use it in (I'm strictly a Mac guy at home) and finally got it to work on an extra 120gig HD that I had lying around. It was touch and go getting the software to work, however. If I wasn't familiar with computers, and used to opening them up and tinkering with them I would've been kicking myself over that $300 lifetime fee. 

After the announcement of the new pricing options, I was thrilled. I can now order an additional Tivo right away without waiting till after the taxes are paid, I pay nothing up front, and the 12.95 I am paying right now will drop to 6.95. So for the next year I'll pay $27.00 a month, and I'll set a reminder in my calendar to call and drop it down to $20.00 when the year is up. So I get the Tivo for $84.00, without having to screw around with rebates. Yay! 

As an option, though, I looked into going with a Comcast DVR. Yikes! 

I currently pay $45.00 a month for analog cable, with no converter box, and I have 3 TVs. In order to get the DVR I would have to upgrade to digital cable. I used to have digital cable, my bill seemed to increase every month, it only worked half the time, and I hardly ever watched all of the extra channels, so I disconnected it. 

I could upgrade to digital cable for as little as $10.00 more per month, including 1 cable box. But wait! If I want digital cable on all three tvs I would have to pay 10.00 per month extra each to get those boxes. So now we are talking an extra $30 per month. 

But wait! Buried in the fine print I see that the basic digital package does not allow me to choose a DVR option, I need to go with at least the SILVER package! That package is $77 dollars a month, so add an additional $22 to the total and we're up to an extra $52 dollars per month! Then it's an additional $10.00 per month, per box for the DVR option! So for a mere $82.00 per month I can have three comcast DVRs, a bunch of channels that I don't want and won't watch, plus I get to pay $56.00 in installation charges. Plus, I get to give all of the money to Comcast, who I loathe and despise. 

Or I could order 2 80 hour units from Tivo, increase my monthly Tivo payment by $34.00 a month, have a Tivo on every TV in the house, spend the $56.00 installation charge on two USB200Ms, and plug those into my airport expresses, and be could to go. The additional $48.00 per month is all for me. After a year my price drops further. 

Granted, this took a little research on my part, but people like me (happily without digital cable) will find that Tivo is less expensive that Comcast's DVR option. 

So this turned out to be rather long. The gist of it is this. I love you, Tivo!


----------



## tazzftw

How big is the hard drive of those cable boxes?


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## bostlaw

C'mon people....Isn't there anything on TV to watch???


----------



## tazzftw

surfcat said:


> I think you will find that a Tivo box is useless without content to record so what you are saying is just nonsense.


I think what I ment to say was that the Cable company has more to lose (at least 60+ a month). Plus they're local.


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> Well, considering Tivo never MADE and operating profit, I'm not sure why YOU can't use it but Tivo can't.
> 
> I'm sure you see what referring to Tivo's profitable quarter is a farce as OPERATIONALLY Tivo never made a profit.
> 
> all you want. It's not a debate, it's a fact. Tivo never made an operational profit and THAT is it's goal. Everything else is PR, not ongoing concern.
> 
> _ITV


2Q06 TiVo's operating loss was $449K. Interest was $732K, and after taxes the net profit was $240K. So TiVo did come out ahead by that much.

Now you don't want me to use interest. OK. Without it TiVo lost ~$500K, not adjusting taxes, etc. which would lessen the loss. TiVo had $103.8M in cash. At that rate of loss, TiVo had 50 yrs of cash.

But wait, there is more...

You don't want to use the interest on the cash? TiVo's defered revenues were $108.4M, greater than the cash on hand. The unamortized advanced subscription payments from Lifetime was greater than the cash position. So the entire interest earned plus some is creditable to the operation.

I hadn't done that last analysis before, but it is nice to add to my argument.


----------



## mchips

rahvin said:


> When TIVO switch's to a pricing model that is $20 a month instead of $xxx upfront...


 First, rahvin, anything I say here is not directed at you... I'm only quoting from you in case anyone else has this mistaken impression as well.

TiVo isn't switching anything, they're adding to it...

All the old (except the Lifetime) is still there... people can still buy a TiVo box at retail, and opt for the service-only fee, as we do now, at $12.95 / $6.95-MSD...

This new pricing structure is only in addition to what's already there, to enable more people to be able to afford TiVo that couldn't before...

If you don't want to pay $20/month, you don't have to... but it's unfair to try and deprive those that want to, or can't afford the large upfront investment, to be able to have this option available to them so that they can enjoy TiVo, too... and even they don't have to pay $20/month... they can pay as little as $16.95/month, including the box, if they want to...

We all decide for ourselves what we can and are willing and able to afford to pay for something, and I certainly don't like someone else telling me that what I'm choosing or wanting to pay for something is a joke.

Those that can afford it can still buy the box at retail, or prepay for 3 years and then the cost, including the box, is only $469/36 = $13.02 per month...

All TiVo is doing here is offering a selection of plans to fit most any budget...

I feel like this thread is just going around in circles here and that some people are just refusing to see all this? It makes me wonder if they're truly missing the point, or if they work for the competition or cable companies and therefore benefit by seeing this continue to fester instead... 

I like how some people think they're the expert on TiVo's finances, even if it disagrees with other's apparent expertise as well... it's gotten to the point that when I see certain people posting, I just skip right on by their post and on to the next one...


----------



## vertigo235

All in all, I think this isn't a bad idea, but only if the S3 is reasonable. SD TiVo is on it's last leg IMO. HD is where it's at.


----------



## michael new

wow 28 pages that was a headache! 

Seems like it wont affect me at all.


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## cwerdna

mchips said:


> TiVo isn't switching anything, they're adding to it...
> 
> All the old (except the Lifetime) is still there... people can still buy a TiVo box at retail, and opt for the service-only fee, as we do now, at $12.95 / $6.95-MSD...
> 
> This new pricing structure is only in addition to what's already there, to enable more people to be able to afford TiVo that couldn't before...
> 
> If you don't want to pay $20/month, you don't have to... but it's unfair to try and deprive those that want to, or can't afford the large upfront investment, to be able to have this option available to them so that they can enjoy TiVo, too... and even they don't have to pay $20/month... they can pay as little as $16.95/month, including the box, if they want to...
> 
> We all decide for ourselves what we can and are willing and able to afford to pay for something, and I certainly don't like someone else telling me that what I'm choosing or wanting to pay for something is a joke.
> 
> Those that can afford it can still buy the box at retail, or prepay for 3 years and then the cost, including the box, is only $469/36 = $13.02 per month...
> 
> All TiVo is doing here is offering a selection of plans to fit most any budget...


Uhh, they're removing lifetime, as you said yourself. I don't have to pay any monthly fee on any of my SA units. Most of my friends (and folks I got Tivos for during that awesome 140 hour Tivo free w/subscription deal) who got SA Tivos are in the same boat.

It's going to be a tough sell to Joe Sixpack who doesn't know the difference between Tivo vs. random cable co DVR w/random software (which may or may not be crap and/or unreliable) and may be cheaper per month and might have a better set of marketing bullet points/features [dual tuners, recording in HD,etc.] Also, as people have stated before, the cable co being responsible for the hardware working and no need to worry about paying to get a Tivo fixed of warranty.


----------



## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> 2Q06 TiVo's operating loss was $449K.


If that's the number announced on 3/8, that 1Q06, not 2Q. Tivo's FY doesn't match the calendar year.


----------



## megazone

cwerdna said:


> It's going to be a tough sell to Joe Sixpack who doesn't know the difference between Tivo vs. random cable co DVR w/random software (which may or may not be crap and/or unreliable) and may be cheaper per month and might have a better set of marketing bullet points/features [dual tuners, recording in HD,etc.] Also, as people have stated before, the cable co being responsible for the hardware working and no need to worry about paying to get a Tivo fixed of warranty.


Based on the trials they ran last year, the new pricing makes it an *easier* sell to Joe Sixpack - 3 to 5 times easier. More people care about paying up front than paying month to month.

As for repair, I saw an article in USA Today about the pricing change that said TiVo would be dropping the repair fee from $150 to $50 for units under commitment that fail. Not free, but a lot less.


----------



## megazone

rahvin said:


> I have a question for all of you defending these actions. When TIVO switch's to a pricing model that is $20 a month instead of $xxx upfront, which retailers are going to continue to carry the product?


You must've missed it. The new prices are *only* for boxes purchased directly from TiVo online of via phone. Pricing for units purchased at retail is unchanged. And do you really think TiVo would make pricing changes *without* considering the impact on retail distribution? They just added Radio Shack as a retail partner, well after the new pricing plans must've been developed.



> The new TIVO is $20 a month, doesn't include cable or satelite and although it has a wonderful interface it's just not going to sell in middle america and for those that buy it and have it break in the first year aren't going to be happy having to send the box back to TIVO on their dime because they own the box they see themselves as renting. Maybe the new pricing will be a hit in california but I doubt anyone in the rest of america is going to wish to front that much cash every month as an addon to already overpriced television.


The pricing trials from last year disagree with this belief.


----------



## megazone

tazzftw said:


> But I do want to know how much the customer has to pay to have it fixed under warrenty.


Under warranty, nothing - out of warranty, according to a USA Today article on the pricing change, $50.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

megazone said:


> Based on the trials they ran last year, the new pricing makes it an *easier* sell to Joe Sixpack - 3 to 5 times easier. More people care about paying up front than paying month to month. ....


Are these trial results available for public consumption?


----------



## megazone

surfcat said:


> I think you will find that a Tivo box is useless without content to record so what you are saying is just nonsense.


Not really. TiVo is aggressively pursuing the analog cable market. This past quarters new sub adds were 49% analog, that makes it the single largest group. There will be more marketing efforts to expand this market, especially through the partnership with the NCTA to market TiVo via rural cable companies, which are analog. TiVo is the only major DVR option for analog cable subscribers, the cable STB DVRs require digital cable. For many cable customers, especially rural customers, digital cable isn't even available. For others, to get a cable DVR, they'd have to upgrade their subscriptions to digital, then pay more on top of that for the DVR - easily raising the cost above the TiVo option. And, unless TiVo closes more cable deals, it won't have the features of TiVo.

For others, like all the people who opt for TiVo even with a cable DVR option that is cheaper, nothing really changes. And since lifetime was only selected by a minority of users, the new pricing plans are actually better for the majority of users. 4 out of the 6 plans cost less over time - all three prepaid and the year of monthly.


----------



## megazone

DCIFRTHS said:


> Are these trial results available for public consumption?


They were reported on during the last two con calls, and, IIRC, in the SEC filings. As well as at a recent speaking even relating to finances.

I doubt TiVo is going to publish any detailed information, since that'd be giving free market research to the competition.


----------



## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> If that's the number announced on 3/8, that 1Q06, not 2Q. Tivo's FY doesn't match the calendar year.


Second Quarter of Fiscal Year 2006; Ended 7/31/2005; Results announced 8/24/2005.


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## HDTiVo

I really understand now.

TiVo is not raising prices. 

They are eliminating the lowest cost of ownership option.

They are introducing new pricing options under which cost of ownership will be much higher in most scenarios, but in no case lower.


The market research they did, upon which they base the statements about good acceptance, must be at least as accurate as "TiVo is not raising prices."


----------



## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> The 80% monthly figure was from one of their conference calls last year. I believe it was that their current subscription ratio was 80% monthly, and that was increasing, with the percentage of people signing up for lifetime declining. Especially after the MSD was introduced - a lot of people who might've gone with lifetime on additional boxes started going monthly instead.


Can you explain how, if you believe that sometime last year Lifetime was already down to 20% and that it has been declining, that fact does not do serious damage to your positions?


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Now you don't want me to use interest. OK. Without it TiVo lost ~$500K, not adjusting taxes, etc. which would lessen the loss. TiVo had $103.8M in cash. At that rate of loss, TiVo had 50 yrs of cash.
> 
> But wait, there is more...
> 
> You don't want to use the interest on the cash? TiVo's defered revenues were $108.4M, greater than the cash on hand. The unamortized advanced subscription payments from Lifetime was greater than the cash position. So the entire interest earned plus some is creditable to the operation.
> 
> I hadn't done that last analysis before, but it is nice to add to my argument.


 "Now" I don't want you to use interest? Not JUST now. Never. I've never told you to use interst so I'm unsure where you think you see a switch in thinking.

I'm not going through the balance sheet but what you just did is INCORRECT.

What if Accounts Payable is $100m and AR is $40m? 
You can't look at cash and deferred revenue and say they balance out or one is greater. There are other assets and liabilities. It's called a balance sheet for a reason and you can't pick two ASSETS and balance them out to one another. It's silly.

Interest is NOT "creditable to the operation." Interest is NOT an operational item. A certain amount of cash is usually assigned to the company as needed for on-going operations when doing a free cash flow analysis and, for many companies, is a fractional amount of revenue due to revolvers and tight control over AP and AR.

Look, I'm not going to argue financial statement analysis with you. You're doing things and saying things that no one, not a CFO, not an banker, not a fund manager would ever do.

You obviously have your "arguement." That it flies in the face of 8 years of Tivo'x existance, that Tivo management, who would LIKE to show operating profits, says it wasn't going to happen, that common sense says so, well, you know better.

I guess, HDTivo, I wish you good luck. Present your case to the Tivo shareholders. If you truly have the magic bullet, I'd expect them to hire you immediately and crown you King.

To me, the loss of lifetime as a subscriber sucks but I can see how Tivo didn't WANT to raise prices and couldn't AFFORD not to.

I can see how new monthly schemes are being tried and no one knows if they will improve operating profits and still drive growth in what will be a very interesting year for the DVR in general as well as for Tivo specifically.

Good Luck

_ITV


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## mchips

HDTiVo said:


> I really understand now.


 I really wish you did... 

When I first read that line, I thought, yay!

Then I made the mistake of continuing to read your post... my bad...

But, yes, people, don't get confused by that post. TiVo is not raising prices, haven't in the more than three years that I have been a customer, while my cable bill has actually gone up during these past three years, and the cost to get a TiVo has actually come down over the past three years, making it easier than ever to get a TiVo with very little upfront, however sarcastic that post may have sounded. We can still get a box, own it outright, and pay only $12.95 for the first, and $6.95 for the second, like always, if we want to continue fronting a large sum of cash. We just have additional choices now if we'd rather not upfront that cash, or if we do, an option to get a box virtually free.

As far as Lifetime, I wish my cell phone provider, or cable company, or electrical company, or (insert here), had a Lifetime option so I could just pay them a one-time fee and never have to pay them another dime so I can essentially get free service from them as well in a few years time... I wish my cell phone, or TV, or computer, or iPaq, or iPod, or DVD Player, or (insert here), came with a lifetime warranty so I could get them replaced for free indefinitely so that I wouldn't have to buy another one of them again for the rest of my life either... but then, they actually realize they couldn't make money if they did that... hmm... can they all be wrong? should they be offering Lifetime options and lifetime warranties as well? should we begin attacking them, too? or, maybe not...

I wish I could buy everything on credit, and still pay the same as if I'd paid cash. I wish I had wings and I could fly.

The Lifetime option was nice for some while it lasted... and will continue to last for those that have already purchased it, and do so before the deadline next week. But the vast majority of TiVo owners are unaffected by this...

I think it may be time to stop beating a dead horse, and lay it to rest.


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> ITV:
> 
> Look at your Lifetime value increase hurts TiVo theory another way.
> 
> TiVo has in effect raised the value of Lifetime. 'New Non-Transferable Lifetime' now costs between $469 and $1407 in payment(s) of $469 every three years. You have the "advantage" of stoping the payments after $469 at whatever "chunk" you've paid should your box fry sometime before the end of 6 years.
> 
> So what is Old Transferable Lifetime worth now? It was worth under $369 ($299+70 for box new,) now its worth at least $469, maybe even $700.


I missed this earlier and will try and make this my final comment on this...

You're right. Tivo just added "some" value to existing lifetimes. How? It's a preferred (from financial risk as we have NO idea how monthly charges play out in the future as well as choice as many people LIKE no monthly fees) system for some.

However, Tivo didn't increase lifetime's value by a set amount (as it would have with an increase in lifetime cost to say, $499) and it is NOT allowing NEW lifetime sales.

Tivo can't push a button and eliminate the almost 1m lifetime units out there (I round heavily because I like round numbers for these types of discussions). It MUST wait them out to die. It wants them to die. It wants a monthly revenue stream, smallest at $7/box, from every single SA out there (Comcast is different).

The lesser of the evils: Don't allow more lifetimes into the wild and minimize the value increase on the ones already there with the unknown variability in monthly charges in the future. Let them depreciate and go to landfill.

From TIVO POV, it's worse to increase the value of lifetimes AND add new ones to the world. I agree with that (from corporate POV).

Is it a calculated risk? Certainly. Expectations are there for many consumers and some just will not pay a monthly. Vista/VIIV and others will step in for those people later this year. Does it make sense to me -- obviously not you -- why they eliminated lifetime? It does now.

There will be a certain churn on lifetime S1 and S2 boxes through natural causes. Tivo can't do anything to speed that up but it can and did make sure it doesn't add to the lifetime numbers.

Signing out...

_ITV


----------



## lajohn27

Something about the rural cable operators and the NCTA made think that it *may* be possible for TIVO to use the S3 - depending on pricing - as a STB for rural cable operators to provide more channel capacity in the digital side - if customers are willing to get their own box.

The expensive part of digital cable isn't the headend stuff.. it's putting a box in every home. For a small cable operator who can't front the costs of all those boxes ... the TIVO S3 might be a way for them to expand offerings & revenue...

Just speculation.

J


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> I'm not going through the balance sheet but what you just did is INCORRECT.


I did not mean what I said to imply that you at any time agreed to using interest...

Asking me not to use implied interest on defered revenues is saying that the interest TiVo earns on cash from upfront Lifetime payments is not part of the value of a Lifetime subscription to TiVo.

That is completely wrong.


----------



## HDTiVo

What is the strategy of a long term, pay up front, customer with TiVo's new pricing model:

Get a free TiVo for $469. At the end of three years, the cheapest option for owning the TiVo going forward is $469 for another 3 years.

But the box is 3 years old and has not been under warranty for some time.

The best strategy is to get a new warranty box for $469. Yes there is some set up work, though.


Funny though, that additional box - in todays costs - will cost TiVo $160, bringing the original $469 back to $309 vs the $369 Bundled Lifetime that used to exist. Not including time value of money here, but TiVo may not be getting such a big benefit under that scenario.


----------



## Rottluver

tazzftw said:


> This has already been observed in here, but I just felt like saying it again.
> 
> People who are angry about the lack of lifetime: "Now I can't make a return off the fees I paid by selling it off on eBay. When I first purhased a TiVo, I expected my net spending to be zero. Now it isn't! GRR!"


Not everyone who has lifetime has any interest in turning about and selling our products.  I have 3 DTV Tivo's and they are all lifetimed and I would sell them unless someone wanted to trade me a new C6 Z06 Corvette for them. I got them (and the lifetime) because I want to use them, not turn around and sell them on ebay for a profit.  To presume that most lifetime subscribers want to do that is ridiculous and presumptious.


----------



## Gregor

HDTiVo said:


> What is the strategy of a long term, pay up front, customer with TiVo's new pricing model:
> 
> Get a free TiVo for $469. At the end of three years, the cheapest option for owning the TiVo going forward is $469 for another 3 years.
> 
> But the box is 3 years old and has not been under warranty for some time.
> 
> The best strategy is to get a new warranty box for $469. Yes there is some set up work, though.
> 
> Funny though, that additional box - in todays costs - will cost TiVo $160, bringing the original $469 back to $309 vs the $369 Bundled Lifetime that used to exist. Not including time value of money here, but TiVo may not be getting such a big benefit under that scenario.


Why is that the cheapest option? Once you complete the initial plan, you can go month-to-month for $12.95 or cheaper if you have more than one.


----------



## Electronut

rahvin,

I am with you brother. You see this issue exactly as I do. The numbers are the numbers and as the both of us said "it is a joke".

It is unfortunate the costs will be heading to where they are as I love TiVo and it's UI. Any financially cautious person looks at their own spending and even though TiVo rules over any other DVR UI it would be cheaper to go with your SAT or Cable company DVR over a new TiVo with this incorporated price plan. As long as the consumer is also knowledgable about their electronics choices too that is. I hope this doesn't backfire in TiVo's face but personally I think it will.

They should have just increased the cost of the lifetime subs as I mentioned instead of trying to make more money off the consumers for as long as they have a new sub'ed Tivo unit. I still want to know how they got the survey to conclude this result. Makes absolutely no sense that the majority of TiVo customers would agree to it.


----------



## davezatz

In three years, that 80 hour Series 2 won't exist. It won't exist this time next year... at the very least they'll need to yank the analog tuner to be compliant. In three years the monthly fee may not be $12.95 and the next three year prepay plan may or may not exist and who knows at what cost. It's pretty useless to speculate so far out and beyond the guaranteed rates/plans.


----------



## stormy not dead

TivoOpsMgr said:


> Hi Dan, the reasoning behind that is that we can't move you to $12.95 unless you give us a further one year commitment, and we don't want to do that to you without you telling us that's what you want. Instead, you have to confirm you want $12.95 per month and agree to a new one-year commitment. This is identical to what cell phone companies and other service providers do today.


Give me a break. TiVo is in charge of what policies it uses. You can switch them to month to month at the service rate just as easily as you could switch them to month to month at a rate 35-50% higher.

And where did the minimum one year commitment sneak in? I haven't paid monthly since 2003, and there was no minimum then.


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## mchips

Electronut said:


> The numbers are the numbers and as the both of us said "it is a joke".


 Well, then, you must not have actually seen the numbers... 

Many of us have already pointed out clearly how the price of TiVo has come down, not up... to state otherwise, is just, well, to use your words, "a joke."

No amount of just claiming "the numbers are the numbers" is going to erase that...

No more Lifetime, just means no more "free" service for new customers after next week... everything else is the same, with new options to make it easier for more people to be able to afford TiVo than ever before...


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## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> It's pretty useless to speculate so far out and beyond the guaranteed rates/plans.


Very true, but I've got little else to do right now.


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## HDTiVo

Electronut said:


> As long as the consumer is also knowledgable about their electronics choices too that is. I hope this doesn't backfire in TiVo's face but personally I think it will.


Judging by the reactions of many on TCF and by the behavior of many consumers, I think TiVo will do alright with the new business model.


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## lajohn27

Regarding the pricing of cableco DVRs... A bargain is only a bargain if :

a) you have a need for it to fill

b) the product fills the need

The Motorola and Scientific Atlanta boxes currently deployed .. do not meet the criteria of item (b) above. Not even close. The software currently deployed on these boxes is beyond weak.. it's buggy, shows frequently fail to record at all with no explanation, when a show moves with in the schedule - many times you will have to reschedule the recording yourself, frequently the boxes will lose ALL their stored recordings... and on and on and on. I have one, it SUX.

If a TIVO did those things, people would freak out.

CableCo DVR's are fine if you have never had a TIVO. If TIVO has spoiled you with well designed UI, user centric recording logic and an all-around well thought out product .. a CableCo DVR will have you running for the hills in about 4-6 hours.

J


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Rottluver said:


> Not everyone who has lifetime has any interest in turning about and selling our products.  I have 3 DTV Tivo's and they are all lifetimed and I would sell them unless someone wanted to trade me a new C6 Z06 Corvette for them. I got them (and the lifetime) because I want to use them, not turn around and sell them on ebay for a profit.  To presume that most lifetime subscribers want to do that is ridiculous and presumptious.


I think it's a valid assumption. I've seen post after post here (my own included) stating that was exactly the plan when HD S3 comes out.

I bought an additional unit a couple days ago when this news broke, specifically to lifetime and then shelve for a year or more. At that point, I will sell it unless I've had problems with one of the other ones I still plan on using.


----------



## erikbrowne

surfcat said:


> Its The S3 boxes will cost hundreds more than the S2 boxes. What is Tivo going to do then - say to people that they should pay several times what they could pay for a cable box just for the honor of having a Tivo?


Well...yes. The Tivo service costs more than cable because it's more expensive to provide the service. It's more expensive because the service is better than the cable service. So you're paying more for Tivo, but you're also getting more.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> CableCo DVR's are fine if you have never had a TIVO.


Considering every existing choice available today, for those willing to pay for it, a TiVo is still the best choice.


----------



## HDTiVo

mchips said:


> No more Lifetime, just means no more "free" service for new customers after next week... everything else is the same, with new options to make it easier for more people to be able to afford TiVo than ever before...


That is probably the dumbest comment I have heard in this whole discussion.

Bundled Lifetime costs $369 today. SAC is $180. $ paid for service is $189.

In the event *a * box lasts 100 months - 16 months longer than TiVo has been selling boxes - that's $1.89/mo not counting the value of interest TiVo earns on the upfront payment of $189.

Such a box NEVER incurs the costs of a call regarding a billing error or customer confusion over the bill; costs for billing and collecting through credit cards, which may expire or change in the interim; or collection costs for bad debts.


----------



## mchips

HDTiVo said:


> That is probably the dumbest comment I have heard in this whole discussion.


 Then I guess you haven't been reading your own comments... 

What the Lifetime option does, is allow people to get free service after a couple of years ($300/12.95 = 23 months, then the service is free after 23 months; if you divide that by the $6.95 MSD instead, then it just takes a little longer to get to that free service)... with the Lifetime option no longer being available after next week, that just means new customers will not be able to get that free service... I actually find it a rather simple statement to comprehend... but then you are struggling to comprehend the simple terms of the new pricing structure, so I guess I shouldn't be all that surprised that you'd be struggling with my comments as well...


----------



## mtchamp

Lifetime service clearly won't make TiVo profitable. The majority of consumers don't know the value of the TiVo service until they use it. TiVo's new pricing strategy will get more consumers to try TiVo.

TiVo is a service and monthly fees are nothing new for maintaining similar services. No upfront hardware cost and just a monthly fee for access to the TiVo service will be very attractive.

Buying both hardware and a service was a deterrent to sales. Tivo can now concentrate on selling the service. TiVo can offer it's best of breed service and continue to add value for which consumers will be willing to pay a monthly service fee.

These pricing strategies will make an important difference in the successful launch of the Series3. In this case the TiVo service will be greatly enhanced by the hardware but the cost of the hardware will be simply included in a monthly fee.

TiVo will continue to add additional features at no extra charge. TiVo's monthly service fee will be bundled with future subscription offerings further increasing the value of TiVo.

Consumers still have the choice of purchasing hardware and paying a reduced monthly service fee and receive a multi-service discount. This is good for consumers who want a long term lower net cost proposition.


----------



## HDTiVo

mtchamp said:


> Consumers still have the choice of purchasing hardware and paying a *reduced * monthly service fee and receive a multi-service discount. This is good for consumers who want a long term *lower * net cost proposition.


Now it all makes sense. TiVo has REDUCED monthly service fees and LOWERED long term cost of ownership.

I didn't even realize Lifetime meant FREE service.

Where could I have gone so wrong?


----------



## HDTiVo

mchips said:


> ... I actually find it a rather simple statement to comprehend...


Its also a very effective debating technique - make a simplistic statement that sounds plausible to anyone that doesn't know or want to get into the details. Its also very hard to defend against.


----------



## mchips

HDTiVo said:


> Where could I have gone so wrong?


 This makes me think of that quote... I think it was something Abraham Lincoln may have said...

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."​


----------



## dgh

HDTiVo said:


> Its also a very effective debating technique - make a simplistic statement that sounds plausible to anyone that doesn't know or want to get into the details. Its also very hard to defend against.


It doesn't take much in the way of details to realize that he only means "free" in the marketing sense. You know: 
Free stuff!
(all you have to do is pay for it!)


----------



## HDTiVo

interactiveTV said:


> Tivo can't push a button and eliminate the almost 1m lifetime units out there (I round heavily because I like round numbers for these types of discussions).
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> I'm not going through the balance sheet but what you just did is INCORRECT.
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> You can't look at cash and deferred revenue ..... It's called a balance sheet for a reason and you can't pick two ASSETS and balance them out to one another. It's silly.
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> That it flies in the face of 8 years of Tivo'x existance, that Tivo management


Your lifetime subs assumption is off by 30% - its 700,000 (maybe you are off by 43%?)

You want to leave out interest on cash collected up front for future services as part of the overall enterprise's profitabilty measure.

Cash is an asset. Defered Revenue is a liability.

You don't look at the balance sheet (and presumably the income and cash flow statement) and put out other assumptions that are off by 5%, 10% or even more because you like rounding.

This quickly leads to a conclusion that is 40, 50 or 60% off. Perhaps this is the way TiVo has been doing their analysis for a long time?

I've done all the details. Used actual figures, not assumptions. Included all the costs and all the revenues - once each. Excluded going-forward factors that are in my position's favor. Kept included things like patent litigation costs.

*What I have said is where it all comes out.* Please at least respect me for my work in your tone.

You have proposed I give my ideas to TiVo, go out there and "help" them. I have in effect given many of my ideas herein for free.

If TiVo would like to send me a Consulting Contract, pay my "expenses," and/or grant me stock an appropriate number of stock options, I will consider working with them.

I understood from past remarks you may be a lawyer. Any interest in negotiating the deal? (Just kidding - I have my lawyers in place.)


----------



## HDTiVo

dgh said:


> It doesn't take much in the way of details to realize that he only means "free" in the marketing sense. You know:
> Free stuff!
> (all you have to do is pay for it!)


I had to get out my reading glasses to see the fine print. Don't do that!


----------



## Electronut

> Well, then, you must not have actually seen the numbers...


Hey mchips...your just not getting it are you?...You must have quite a bit of money to throw around. HDTivo is correct as well so don't target his comments too. Look at the cost example I wrote up. Yeah it's extreme but that's the math. If TiVo happens to be around for many years to come (Which I certainly hope so) why would a new sub'er pay out all that money? I would rather put it to my kids college tuition! We don't need a TiVo DVR that bad bro! Simple economics.

LIKE I SAID, raise the costs of the lifetime if they need more return. Don't continue to "squeeze" the dollars from the consumers and those who you need the support from to survive. That fine line of "value" has been crossed with the new pricing plan. It may have been too good of a price with the lifetime plan but now it's taken the turn for the worse.

Of course those peeps now with lifetimes (such as myself) are set. I am talking about future sub'ers or those looking to add on units in their homes which is what this whole new pricing plan applies to.


----------



## lajohn27

HDTiVo said:


> That is probably the dumbest comment I have heard in this whole discussion.
> 
> Bundled Lifetime costs $369 today. SAC is $180. $ paid for service is $189.
> 
> In the event *a * box lasts 100 months - 16 months longer than TiVo has been selling boxes - that's $1.89/mo not counting the value of interest TiVo earns on the upfront payment of $189.


Ok.. but.. you can't claim interest on the 189 for 100 months. Only for the period of time those units are on the books - currently that's 4 years. Interest on 200$ for four yeras currently .. might add up to 12 bucks. (Compounded)

Regardless, your 1.89 figure is below the $2 figure you quote elsewhere in this thread.

And whoever was telling you that you cannot compare a balance sheet as you did is correct. You can not take two items from a balance sheet and ignore everything else. Duh.

Electronut: Yeah, I wish I had all that money I've spent on cable and satellite TV over the years, I could buy a nice car probably. Or all the money I've spent on fast food or cell phone service. TIVO will cost more in the L O N G run for new subs based on what we know today. People will either choose to spend it or not. But TIVo's research clearly tells them they will spend it.

But the bottom line is that TIVO is a service that has costs associated with it. Same as your cell phone. When was the last time your cell phone company gave you unlimited minutes for a one time only fee, based on the life of your phone?

And for those in this thread who claimed all of TIVo's research was in California - check the posts in the appropriate threads - I think you'll find otherwise.

Regardless of what I've said, this argument is now circular.

J


----------



## interactiveTV

HDTiVo said:


> Your lifetime subs assumption is off by 30% - its 700,000 (maybe you are off by 43%?)


 You know, the straw man thing is BEYOND silly.

if you need to be right, go have a conversation with yourself.

Not only have I and others used the 700K number, I've said more than once my 1 million was a rounded number because it makes it easier to discuss (plus there are what? 100K lifetimes not included?).

My "assumption" isn't off, it's your attitude that's off. I was going to leave this whole conversation alone but your absolutely silly need to correct something that doesn't need or merit correction just peeved me off. I stated EVERY single time that 1m was a rounded number not relevant to the GENERAL conversation of lifetime and its effect on depreciating hardware. Yet, somehow, someway,you feel the need to make it like I QUOTED the number. It is meant to highlight significance to the issue. I NEVER used the 1m rounded in a NUMBERICAL calculation. NOT ONCE. When talking about the depreciation of hardware, it makes no difference if there are 500k or 2m. It's not important. What is important is there are MANY lifetime boxes. How many? Doesn't matter for a DEPRECIATION conversation. We don't even know how many are S1 and how many are S2.



HDTiVo said:


> You want to leave out interest on cash collected up front for future services as part of the overall enterprise's profitabilty measure.


 Yes, because if you understood how Net Present Value worked you would see that the INTEREST earned at Tivo is paltry compared to its Weighted Average Cost of Capital (WACC). It's basic corporate finance and while I'm not going to bother here because you can go learn it yourself, the CORRECT thing to do would be to Net present Value back the cash flows of a lifetime (which would have a PV on the revenue side of about $290 after processing costs and future costs which would be presented valued back at WACC) as well as the NPV of a monthly (which is more complicated as we don't know how it all shakes out but the calculations are the same).

NPV takes into the account the TIME VALUE OF MONEY -- the first key to what you are trying and fumbling to do -- as well as the COST OF THAT MONEY -- the second key. Because a lifetime subscriber pays TODAY, the present value is pretty much the price - associated costs (like credit card processing). However, Tivo has estimated costs in the future which must be discounted back.



HDTiVo said:


> *What I have said is where it all comes out.* Please at least respect me for my work in your tone.


 You've pretty much waived that with the need to correct a number labeled as a very rough round for the purposes of a discussion (I LIKE typing 1m more than I like typing 700k).

Interest is a FINANCING number, not operational. That's the story. You can try and say Tivo takes in the cash from a lifetime and so should include the interest on that money HOWEVER, Tivo has a COST OF CAPITAL. Tivo's cost of capital is MANY TIMES any amount it could earn in interest. I haven't done the WACC but it's probably above 20%.

Tivo sells shares that cost it 20% and earns 5% on the money and you want to include the interest as operational?

Seriously, interest income is NOT operational. Go look up WACC and NPV and cost of capital and then we can chat again. There's a reason people look at EBITDA as a shorthand for operational health. You should learn why.

If you truly feel the need to correct a number labeled as a rounded and used to discuss a CONCEPT and NOT for numerical calculations -- there are issues.

_ITV


----------



## HDTiVo

ITV:

I see you have decided to maintain the tone of disrespect.

The point is your CONCEPT is based on a variety of assumptions which are not valid. Accurate numerical calculations based upon actual numbers lead to a different conclusion. Being 5% off on back of the envelop calculations is more than $10M in revenue or expenses per year. You bicker about breaking even in a quarter with a loss of $500K - excluding interest income - when the size of the operationally very profitable service business was much smaller than it is today. You don't care that with $100M in cash, $500K/QTR is 50 years of viability.

What's silly is you won't give me a number (in refuting my 450K sub adds). Could I be a little off. You bet. Maybe they need 550K adds. That's $10.5 more in revenue against about $3M in expenses. Its breakeven at 1.8M subs instead of 1.7M subs. Its 3-4 months of additional growth at current levels of SAC spending. Its 300K more subs than TiVo finished with in FY06, while adding 350K subs in FY06.

You don't realize that cash and defered revs are assets and liabilities, not two assets. You may not realize that the accounting measure 'defered revs' is essentially the total UNAMORTIZED remaining amount of Lifetime pre-payments.

You talk about WACC. Lifetime payments are upfront, much of TiVo's costs are over time - after SAC. If you are going to use a WACC much higher than the interest rate, you are crediting Lifetime with far more imputed interest than I am. You are adding to my argument, not deducting. But thank you.

It is easy to make errors when not doing the detail work. We all do it, all the time. We don't really think through the meaning of everything, and sometimes get the sign of the numbers wrong. Heck, I left out time value of money as a credit to Lifetime value - I knew I did - but I didn't even think about defered revs as giving me a decent figure on the $ to impute interest to for Lifetime prepayments.


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## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Ok.. but.. you can't claim interest on the 189 for 100 months. Only for the period of time those units are on the books - currently that's 4 years. Interest on 200$ for four yeras currently .. might add up to 12 bucks. (Compounded)


That is right. I would claim interest only for the UNAMORTIZED amount of Bundled Lifetime minus SAC (ie. $369-180=$189 initially) over time. The $189 is amortized down to zero over 4 years. This gives consistency to the company's accounting methods.

I've simplified the interest to 5%, but ITV gives me pause to think I could take more.



lajohn27 said:


> Regardless, your 1.89 figure is below the $2 figure you quote elsewhere in this thread.


That is right. In the case I sight, TiVo may be losing money. But the example was a response to a claim that Lifetime=FREE Service. It is an exaggerated lifespan. Remember TiVo has only sold boxes for about 84 months. Very few boxes will be around for 100 months. Expecting 100 months of service out any analog box sold today is absurd with the technology changes coming. Even the S3 itself should cause some to turn old SA boxes into trash.

While TiVo conservatively takes revenues over 48 months for accounting purposes, I imagine real average box life has been in the 70-80 month range, but will be even less on future box sales.



lajohn27 said:


> And whoever was telling you that you cannot compare a balance sheet as you did is correct. You can not take two items from a balance sheet and ignore everything else. Duh.


This is addressed in my response to ITV.



HDTiVo said:


> ITV:
> You don't realize that cash and defered revs are assets and liabilities, not two assets. You may not realize that the accounting measure 'defered revs' is essentially the total UNAMORTIZED remaining amount of Lifetime pre-payments.


----------



## dswallow

The three of you need to get a room.


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## HDTiVo

dswallow said:


> The three of you need to get a room.


I thought this was a kind of room...the door is just ajar.


----------



## rahvin

mtchamp said:


> Lifetime service clearly won't make TiVo profitable. The majority of consumers don't know the value of the TiVo service until they use it. TiVo's new pricing strategy will get more consumers to try TiVo.


Yes because those people would rather not buy a box at $0 after rebate, try the service and get rid of it if they don't like it or can't afford it. Instead they would rather commit themselves to at least a year at $20 a month.

In addition, if these plans aren't available through retail then there is no point in even offering them. If they are available through retail then they are going to kill their retail relationships, IMO. From everything the TIVO employees on here have said indicates that the new pricing is going to be pushed across the board, not just at TIVO.com. The phone companies have a heck of a time selling DSL to people with a 1 year commitment, is it going to be easier for TIVO?

And I'll say it again, TIVO more than likely did their market research in Californaia, where no one who's legal makes less than $10 an hour. I know that pricing with years of commitment isn't going to sell them very many boxes in my state, but my state is fairly fiscally conservative.

I'll say it again, I hope they prove me wrong but I doubt they will.


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## GadgetGav

I can't sort out all these numbers arguments, but this is the way I see it.
Most of the people who had lifetime subs are die-hard Tivo fans, almost by definition. Some may have believed in it from the start, others may have moved over from monthly once they used the service a while. Either way, the lifetime was the lifetime of the box. Now, the Series 3 is on the horizon with a lot of cool new features. I would bet that a huge percentage of the current lifetime subscribers were thinking of upgrading their hardware, and having had good value from their lifetime sub, would have gladly forked over another $300 for a new lifetime sub on a new box. That would have been a big injection of new cash in lump sums.
Now that the pricing structure has been changed so radically, I would be that a lot of lifetimers (like me) are seriously considering other options rather than buying a S3. No lump sums for Tivo, no new box sales to exisiting customers... Where's the sense in that. So long Tivo, it was a good product.


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## Gregor

I was considering lifetime with the S3. If TiVo covers it for $6.95 with my other boxes, the payback grows to 40 months and that's almost beyond the expected lifetime of the box, considering as soon as it's warranty is up it will get disk added.

The PC software boxes all suck and I don't want a PC in my living room. The DVR from Comcast isn't nearly big enough and I suspect their rental rate will be $20/mo.

So I'm eagerly awaiting the S3.


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## HDTiVo

*Comments on TiVo's new business plan:*

First some definitions:

SAC: [TiVo] define SAC as our total acquisition costs divided by TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions. We
define total acquisition costs as the sum of sales and marketing expenses, rebates, revenue share, and other payments
to channel, minus hardware gross margin (defined as hardware revenues less cost of hardware revenues).

Box Manufacturing Cost (BMC): Cost of Hardware Revenues divided by gross sub adds.

In 4Q06 BMC was roughly $169, and SAC $157. 
In FY06 BMC was roughly $170, and SAC $191.

The difference between SAC and BMC is the average price TiVo received for the box purchase itself less the other costs in the SAC definition.

Service Margin (SM): Service Revenues minus Cost of Service Revenues.

===============================

*TiVo's new pricing is designed such that if someone does become a customer, the sale is profitable.* Also, the new pricing options are designed to reduce SAC on future sales.

Take the worst case for TiVo: $224 for one year and the customer throws the box in the trash at the end of one year. TiVo spent SAC of typically $180 (historical) leaving $44 to pay for 12 months of service, or $3.67/mo. It cost TiVo about $2.25/mo to service a customer in FY06 vs $2.99/mo in FY05.

So in the worst case, TiVo recoups SAC and makes a few pennies on the monthly service.

TiVo's old subscribers represent large sunk costs which are now irrelevent in the future earnings calculations. In 4Q06 the difference between service revenues and service costs (SM) was $36M. For FY06 that number was $133M.

*TiVo's existing subscriber base represents a very lucrative profit margin on serivces. *

SM is offset by R&D and SG&A expenses; S&M were covered in SAC. For FY06 the two expense lines totaled $79M; 4Q06 was $22.4M

SM is much higher than the expenses it has to cover.

*The new business model should lead to substantial profitability, if not right away, then certainly over time.* The accounting treatment TiVo has to give SAC vs. upfront contract revenue and monthly revenues on new contracts will determine the timing of reported profits on new business.

The new business model is a win-win for TiVo, regardless of subscriber growth, during the next 2-3Q's before the S3 and Cable Software products become important to their business:

If TiVo sells lots of S2s because of the new terms, TiVo profits over time as it reports those associated revenues against their costs. If TiVo does not sell many S2s, then the existing S2 subscription base covers the company's costs. Selling few S2s leads to small Total SAC, meaning the existing subscription business margins can cover the companies needs.

*Once the new products come out, profitable subscription growth on those will be essential for TiVo's long term success. * The S2 subscriber base will grind down over time as analog TV customers fade from the market place. But for the remainder of 2006, TiVo can ride on the S2 base.

*The longer term question is how TiVo will do with their S3 and Cable Software businesses. But for the next few months, TiVo has itself positioned just fine.*


----------



## HDTiVo

rahvin said:


> In addition, if these plans aren't available through retail then there is no point in even offering them. If they are available through retail then they are going to kill their retail relationships, IMO. From everything the TIVO employees on here have said indicates that the new pricing is going to be pushed across the board, not just at TIVO.com. The phone companies have a heck of a time selling DSL to people with a 1 year commitment, is it going to be easier for TIVO?


There are many ways to pass money to the retail channel to make stores quite happy selling TiVoes (or anything else...) It doesn't have to be apparent to the customer what money the retailer is actually getting.


----------



## HDTiVo

GadgetGav said:


> Now that the pricing structure has been changed so radically, I would be that a lot of lifetimers (like me) are seriously considering other options rather than buying a S3. No lump sums for Tivo, no new box sales to exisiting customers... Where's the sense in that. So long Tivo, it was a good product.


It is just in the last few days that it has occured to me that my next DVR or Digital Media Receiver MIGHT NOT be a TiVo S3.

My entire home media system and network is based on the (4) S2s as central figures. Nothing has been bought in over two years that won't "play" with a TiVo in some way.

Within the next two years I will be making major CE purchase decisions involving the termination of the use of some or all of my S2s. I had expected the S3 would be the replacement, baring some major change in the landscape.

I now realize that there will be many choices competing for my future business, given expectations about S3 pricing that I am sensing from the new S2 pricing.


----------



## lajohn27

rahvin said:


> And I'll say it again, TIVO more than likely did their market research in Californaia, where no one who's legal makes less than $10 an hour. I know that pricing with years of commitment isn't going to sell them very many boxes in my state, but my state is fairly fiscally conservative.


Here's a chap from Philadelphia who brought the offer to the attention of the forum.. back when it was testing.. in November. So clearly it wasn't exclusively in California.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=270076&highlight=16+95

Perhaps everyone who's "legal" in Philly makes over 10$ an hour too?

Regardless, it's an interesting time capsule from when they were testing the idea which is now policy.

J


----------



## tazzftw

Rottluver said:


> Not everyone who has lifetime has any interest in turning about and selling our products.  I have 3 DTV Tivo's and they are all lifetimed and I would sell them unless someone wanted to trade me a new C6 Z06 Corvette for them. I got them (and the lifetime) because I want to use them, not turn around and sell them on ebay for a profit.  To presume that most lifetime subscribers want to do that is ridiculous and presumptious.


Maybe not most, but the thought of resale value certinally made the thought of lifetime more appealing.


----------



## Rottluver

ThreeSoFar said:


> I think it's a valid assumption. I've seen post after post here (my own included) stating that was exactly the plan when HD S3 comes out.
> 
> I bought an additional unit a couple days ago when this news broke, specifically to lifetime and then shelve for a year or more. At that point, I will sell it unless I've had problems with one of the other ones I still plan on using.


Perhaps it is but I buy things to use them, not to turn around and spend more money on them (adding the lifetime service) and then try to make a profit. Not my style but whatever works for people I guess.

I don't post here often enough to know what everyone else is doing so you are possibly 100% right, I just find it a silly concept, but that is me, not anyone else.


----------



## cwerdna

lajohn27 said:


> Regarding the pricing of cableco DVRs... A bargain is only a bargain if :
> 
> b) the product fills the need
> 
> The Motorola and Scientific Atlanta boxes currently deployed .. do not meet the criteria of item (b) above. Not even close. The software currently deployed on these boxes is beyond weak.. it's buggy, shows frequently fail to record at all with no explanation, when a show moves with in the schedule - many times you will have to reschedule the recording yourself, frequently the boxes will lose ALL their stored recordings... and on and on and on. I have one, it SUX.
> 
> If a TIVO did those things, people would freak out.
> 
> CableCo DVR's are fine if you have never had a TIVO. If TIVO has spoiled you with well designed UI, user centric recording logic and an all-around well thought out product .. a CableCo DVR will have you running for the hills in about 4-6 hours.


You've hit the nail on the head. Joe Sixpack who's never owned a Tivo, may never have seen Tivo's UI and is lured by these random cable co DVRs and random DVD recorders [which have no monhtly fee but some/all have really crappy EPG software] may just go w/crap rather than Tivo. He may either just live with it or send the box back. He may not go w/Tivo as he might not think/know Tivo is any better. He also may not be too pleased w/the price.

I even knew a former coworker who thought Dish's PVRs were TiVos! UGH! I work in a technology company FYI and he's a programmer.


----------



## StewartWong

Hello everyone. This discussion about the end of lifetime convinced me to pick up a Series 2 and set up a lifetime subscription before 3/15.

My question is this. The current $150 rebate requires a "one year commitment". Is it safe to assume it is a *minimum* of a one year commitment?

That is, should I sign up for one year.. and then apply that to the lifetime sub to make sure I get the rebate? 

Or does picking up a lifetime sub immediately qualify me?

I would hate to not do the right thing and get denied the rebate.. it's certainly a big chunk of money. I've seen rebates denied for sillier reasons. The rebate form from my store (Circuit City) has wording at the top which says "1 Year Service Activation Required" which worries me.

TiVoOpsMgr: Can you please help clarify this? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Narf54321

cwerdna said:


> I even knew a former coworker who thought Dish's PVRs were TiVos! UGH!


Tivo has such a big brand, like Kleenex, every gawd-awful PVR is being called a "TiVo"! One of the recent tivo newsletters coined a term regarding the inferior DVRs: They called them *Fako*'s! I thought it was amusing enough to start using this phrase myself.

Anyway, although I think the new monthly-charge/free-box structure is easier to sell, I'm upset that they _completely_ got rid of the Lifetime option. As a customer ( just bought 3 more Lifetimes this weekend!) and former Tivo fanboi, I don't agree with a lot of the things Rogers (CEO) has done since taking over.

They had better sell a lotta subscriptions, because there's bunches of Tivo old-timers like me who are going to *not* recommend Tivo anymore to friends and family. Upsetting the rank and file customer base is not a good way to drum up more sales, and the bean-counters can't measure that.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

StewartWong said:


> Hello everyone. This discussion about the end of lifetime convinced me to pick up a Series 2 and set up a lifetime subscription before 3/15.
> 
> My question is this. The current $150 rebate requires a "one year commitment". Is it safe to assume it is a *minimum* of a one year commitment?
> 
> That is, should I sign up for one year.. and then apply that to the lifetime sub to make sure I get the rebate?
> 
> Or does picking up a lifetime sub immediately qualify me?
> 
> I would hate to not do the right thing and get denied the rebate.. it's certainly a big chunk of money. I've seen rebates denied for sillier reasons. The rebate form from my store (Circuit City) has wording at the top which says "1 Year Service Activation Required" which worries me.
> 
> TiVoOpsMgr: Can you please help clarify this?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The lifetime will immediately qualify you for the rebate. It did for mine.


----------



## HDTiVo

Narf54321 said:


> As a customer ( just bought 3 more Lifetimes this weekend!) and former Tivo fanboi, I don't agree with a lot of the things Rogers (CEO) has done since taking over.


What has he done that you do not agree with?


----------



## Calamari

I read that the cards are good for 2 years after purchase. Also, it looked like Stephen(TiVoOpsMgr) said that if you had one, that you could hold on to it and use it when the S3 comes out.

He also stated that Best Buy stopped selling them in January. I just wanted to let people know that they are still out there....

There was a store in Atlanta that had 5. Of course that was the only store in the area that had them.

Regards,
Calamari


----------



## Stylin

Calamari said:


> I read that the cards are good for 2 years after purchase. Also, it looked like Stephen(TiVoOpsMgr) said that if you had one, that you could hold on to it and use it when the S3 comes out.
> 
> He also stated that Best Buy stopped selling them in January. I just wanted to let people know that they are still out there....
> 
> There was a store in Atlanta that had 5. Of course that was the only store in the area that had them.
> 
> Regards,
> Calamari


I checked but I could've missed something - so if anyone finds the gift card in NYC & boroughs, pls PM me...TY


----------



## xnevergiveinx

ok, i'm sure this has been asked, but i'm too tired to search through 30 + pages.
(lets say i just bought a tivo off of ebay and its my only one)
if i have a tivo that is currently unsubbed, after the 15th, what are my options?
will i be able to sub it for $12.95 a month?
or will i have to pay the elivated cost and have to scrap the ebay bought tivo?

P.s. - someone should make a sticky for this that has all the questions for different scenerios answered....that would make it so much easier


----------



## Stylin

xnevergiveinx said:


> ok, i'm sure this has been asked, but i'm too tired to search through 30 + pages.
> (lets say i just bought a tivo off of ebay and its my only one)
> if i have a tivo that is currently unsubbed, after the 15th, what are my options?
> will i be able to sub it for $12.95 a month?
> or will i have to pay the elivated cost and have to scrap the ebay bought tivo?
> 
> P.s. - someone should make a sticky for this that has all the questions for different scenerios answered....that would make it so much easier


Done. Summary of TiVo's new pricing announcements

Service-only pricing: If you buy a new unit from retail, or have an existing unit with no service, you'll purchase service-only pricing.

What does "service-only" mean? It means you're not getting a box as well, you're only buying service. That's the new name for the type of service we've been selling to date.

The existing monthly fee of $12.95 with a one-year commitment is unchanged.

What does that mean? It means that next month you can go out to Best Buy, pick up a unit, and then activate it for $12.95 per month (with a one year commitment), just like today.

It also means that if you pay $12.95 per month today, your monthly cost doesn't change.

It also means that if you don't have a service commitment today (e.g., you purchased service before there was a one year commitment, or you're past the twelve months) you don't have any new service commitments for as long as your contract remains uncanceled.

The existing Multi Service Discount (MSD) fee of $6.95 is also unchanged. There are more details about MSD below.

We also announced that there are going to be service-only prepay options for one, two and three years of service. Pricing details on those will come next week.


----------



## xnevergiveinx

awesome, you guys are really on top of this...well done. thanks!


----------



## Fraser+Dief

I'm a new tivo user, just bought my machine in November, and bought lifetime immediately so as to keep my total bill as low as possible. I can seriously say that without lifetime being available, I wouldn't own the machine at all. I never would have bought it just to add an infinite monthly cost to my credit card bill, there's already a boatload of them on there now. When my tivo dies a few years down the road, I'm 99% certain that I won't be replacing it with an S3, S4 or whatever.

Something that's not making sense here is that lifetime users are only a small portion of the user base, yet they're the big drain on tivo's wallet? Makes no sense to me. This is not the typical "10% of our users use 80% of the bandwidth" like in an ISP situation.

I don't know, this move just doesn't strike me as a good one. As a business owner, I concentrated on pleasing my longest tenure customers, the one who stuck with through thick and thin, the ones out there proselytising for me. This move is just ticking off your most loyal customers.

And I think anyone doing 3 year calculations on the $12.95 a month figure are very naive. I don't think that figure is going to stay that for very long.


----------



## HDTiVo

Fraser+Dief said:


> Something that's not making sense here is that lifetime users are only a small portion of the user base, yet they're the big drain on tivo's wallet? Makes no sense to me. This is not the typical "10% of our users use 80% of the bandwidth" like in an ISP situation.
> 
> I don't know, this move just doesn't strike me as a good one. As a business owner, I concentrated on pleasing my longest tenure customers, the one who stuck with through thick and thin, the ones out there proselytising for me. This move is just ticking off your most loyal customers.


 :up: :up:

And the more important issue is what future Lifetime contracts would have cost TiVo, which is far less than in the past.


----------



## StewartWong

ThreeSoFar said:


> The lifetime will immediately qualify you for the rebate. It did for mine.


Thanks ThreeSoFar :up:


----------



## GadgetGav

I've been thinking about a couple more things.
Tivo has said that existing subscribers will be unaffected, as long as they don't need to activate a new box. All of us on lifetime from S1 or S2 days can go on getting our free service. But we know there are going to be some things that only work on a S3 box... how long before we start to see more and more features go to S3 only and then maybe even the whole Tivo service...? You can't buy leaded gas any longer and Tivo could always claim that you can still use your S1 or S2 as a plain, manually programmed DVR...

The other thing is that the pricing structure seems to have a flaw in it...
The monthly sub is and remains $12.95.
The three year committment is $16.95 / month which amounts to $144 for the hardware.
The two year committment is $18.95 / month which also amounts to $144 for the box.
The one year committment is $19.95 / month which is only $84 for the box....

Is the best plan now to go for a one year deal and then switch to monthly service at $12.95..?


----------



## dswallow

GadgetGav said:


> Is the best plan now to go for a one year deal and then switch to monthly service at $12.95..?


For monthly, that is the least expensive option.

In order based on 3 years of service...

3 year prepaid, $469
2 year prepaid, $524.40
1 year prepaid, $534.80
1 year monthly, $554.20
2 year monthly, $610.20
3 year monthly, $610.20


----------



## timckelley

GadgetGav said:


> I've been thinking about a couple more things.
> Tivo has said that existing subscribers will be unaffected, as long as they don't need to activate a new box. All of us on lifetime from S1 or S2 days can go on getting our free service. But we know there are going to be some things that only work on a S3 box... how long before we start to see more and more features go to S3 only and then maybe even the whole Tivo service...? You can't buy leaded gas any longer and Tivo could always claim that you can still use your S1 or S2 as a plain, manually programmed DVR...
> 
> The other thing is that the pricing structure seems to have a flaw in it...
> The monthly sub is and remains $12.95.
> The three year committment is $16.95 / month which amounts to $144 for the hardware.
> The two year committment is $18.95 / month which also amounts to $144 for the box.
> The one year committment is $19.95 / month which is only $84 for the box....
> 
> Is the best plan now to go for a one year deal and then switch to monthly service at $12.95..?


No, I'm thinking the best deal is to by an 80 hour S2 from CompUSA for $29, and then immediately go to the service-only plan at $12.95 per month. (Or lifetime, if you do it soon.)


----------



## HDTiVo

GadgetGav said:


> I've been thinking about a couple more things.
> Tivo has said that existing subscribers will be unaffected, as long as they don't need to activate a new box.


*Existing subscribers ARE affected * - this is just another marketing tag line from TiVo.

In a couple of days existing subscribers will no longer have the option of buying Lifetime on their existing Tivoes.

Talk about affected - you lose the best option to reduce your ownership cost in the future!


----------



## danieljanderson

HDTiVo said:


> *Existing subscribers ARE affected * - this is just another marketing tag line from TiVo.
> 
> In a couple of days existing subscribers will no longer have the option of buying Lifetime on their existing Tivoes.
> 
> Talk about affected - you lose the best option to reduce your ownership cost in the future!


If you didn't already get it on a box you have, I doubt you ever would. Claiming you are now affected is like a little kid saying he wanted the piece of candy you just took. If you wanted it, you should have taken it sooner.


----------



## HDTiVo

*Possible Effects of TiVo's New Business Model on Subscription Results*

TiVo's new business model is designed to drive SAC down from an unusually high $191 in FY06 to something below its historical $180 range. I expect TiVo to target SAC in the $140-150 range.

In FY06 TiVo spent a total of $94.1M in SAC. If TiVo were to end up spending at those levels for FY07, the estimated SAC range would result in between 625K and 675K Gross Subscription Additions (GSA). In FY06, GSAs were 495K, while Net Subscription Additions (NSA) were 350K. With some additional churn during FY07, NSAs might be 425-475K. TiVo is going to try to lower churn, but the growing obselesence of the S2 technology is playing against that. Regardless, under this scenario, *TiVo would experience a significant increase in NSA over last year*, but would not reach the record 485K NSA of FY05.

TiVo's total SAC spending will be heavily dependent on its unit sales. If unit sales drop significantly, either because the new marketing fails or obselesence kills the S2 market, or both, total SAC spending would drop considerably from $94.1M. Unit SAC might stay at or even rocket above the high levels TiVo experienced recently, but *with the drop in total SAC spending, TiVo would still be in good financial shape this year.*


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## lajohn27

Existings subscribers are NOT YET affected. Nor will they be for a few more days.

If you wanna split hairs.

J


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## aindik

dswallow said:


> For monthly, that is the least expensive option.
> 
> In order based on 3 years of service...
> 
> 3 year prepaid, $469
> 2 year prepaid, $524.40
> 1 year prepaid, $534.80
> 1 year monthly, $554.20
> 2 year monthly, $610.20
> 3 year monthly, $610.20


What this thread needs is more discounting to present value.


----------



## HDTiVo

lajohn27 said:


> Existings subscribers are NOT YET affected. Nor will they be for a few more days.
> 
> If you wanna split hairs.
> 
> J


OK, I'll split hairs then.

*Existing subscribers have been affected since about 4:15pm EST on 3/8/06.*

Since then they have been scrambling to decide what to do with their Lifetime option. In a couple of days that window slams shut.


----------



## Stu_Bee

HDTiVo said:


> *Existing subscribers have been affected since about 4:15pm EST on 3/8/06.*


Did an email go out to all subscribers with non-lifetime units? Or when you say "existing Subscribers" do you mean just those that have happened across the announcement on their web surfing.


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## Rottluver

Stu_Bee said:


> Did an email go out to all subscribers with non-lifetime units? Or when you say "existing Subscribers" do you mean just those that have happened across the announcement on their web surfing.




That is the funniest thing I have ever read.


----------



## bidger

danieljanderson said:


> If you didn't already get it on a box you have, I doubt you ever would. Claiming you are now affected is like a little kid saying he wanted the piece of candy you just took. If you wanted it, you should have taken it sooner.


Well, some users wanted that "candy" attached to a S3 TiVo so they never did get a chance. It's better they be let down now rather than have the rug pulled out from under them a few weeks before the unit is on the shelves.


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## lajohn27

HD :

Man.. some people really are glass is half empty.. 

I gotta disagree with your thinking.. I didn't scramble. I sat down and thought.. 299$ or continue on at 6.95 a month. Hmm.. 

And then decided to continue on at 6.95 a month.

But technically, I am still not affected. Because lifetime is STILL available. I could change my mind right now in fact.

But I won't.

J


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## TiVoEvan74

This is supposed to simplify the buying decision for consumers??!! 

*&#[email protected]!*%^ don't think so... I already have a headache and I only read 4 of the pages in this MONSTER thread.


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## mchips

Fraser+Dief said:


> And I think anyone doing 3 year calculations on the $12.95 a month figure are very naive. I don't think that figure is going to stay that for very long.


 But let's say you're right, for a moment. Let's say the the service-only fee does go up, which is what I presume you're saying, or you'd be happier if you were insinuating that it would go down...

The 3-year calculations come into play even more then... Let's pretend the service-only fee rises to $14 per month (though I seriously doubt it will; this is just to illustrate a point).

3-year prepay = $469/36 months = $13.02/month (which includes the service and the box).

This plan then becomes cheaper than the service-only fee, and it includes the hardware, whereas the service-only fee does not, and people who opted for this plan will not be affected by any service-only fee hikes, for at least three years.

So, perhaps, instead, it may be a bit naive not to be doing the 3-year calculations.


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## gmitch64

What would have been nice, and I don't think I've missed it, but I've been reading quickly over lunch, so I may well have.... Would have been for TiVo to say that come 3/8, lifetime is no longer an option for new boxes, but any boxes purchased before that date would have the option to purchase lifetime in the future.

That way, people with new boxes would know what they were getting before they purchased, and those who already had boxes wouldn't be feeling 'alienated' - it would be just keeping the existing options we have.

I guess that when one of our boxes dies, I'll be looking elsewhere - tho hopefully by then, the TiVo/Comcast deal will have something that can be used.


Graham
(feeling kinda sad)


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## Atomike

I will never purchase another Tivo. I hate monthly fees SO much, that I would never purchase a non-lifetime Tivo. It will never, never happen. Like most here, if lifetime had not been available, I would never have bought my Tivo in the first place.

When I've saved up enough for another DVR, I will be looking elsewhere (possibly a Mac mini, or other homebrew option).

But Tivo is now completely and totally a non-option for me.

I have been trying to think of a single long-term successful business without rabid, super-fans. The only thing I can come up with are oil companies and other life-necessary companies (power, water, etc).
Tivo is a luxury, and certainly not a monopoly. I think the most fundamental rule of ecomics is: don't anger your customers.


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## dswallow

aindik said:


> What this thread needs is more discounting to present value.


I actually had done that, and the differences just are noise in the scheme of things; as I recall it didn't change the order of anything, either. It just made the discussion more complex. And then there's all the what-if's on the idea of a monthly price increase sometime in the future.


----------



## mchips

TiVoEvan74 said:


> This is supposed to simplify the buying decision for consumers??!!
> 
> *&#[email protected]!*%^ don't think so... I already have a headache and I only read 4 of the pages in this MONSTER thread.


 It's better to read the summary and FAQ of the new pricing plans compiled by the TiVo team by clicking here than trying to read through this thread.

Many people did not understand the plans in the beginning, some people still don't understand them now (maybe because some don't want to), and it seems a few may be trying to just monopolize the thread and confuse everyone, so it's probably best for people to read through the FAQ/Summary and make up their minds on their own instead.

This thread has just been going around in circles, and my summary below will probably just cause another loop, but here's a brief summary for you.

In summary:

1. No more Lifetime option for new TiVo's purchased after this week. People that already have it, or puchase it before the deadline, will not lose it. This is the only downside for some, and the only thing that has really changed. The vast majority of TiVo owners are not affected by this, and it's something that wasn't profitable for TiVo. I'm one of those who doesn't have a problem with it.

2. The existing plans are still there (i.e., you can still buy the box at retail, and opt for the $12.95 service-only fee, or $6.95-MSD, like always).

3. Additional bundled plans are being offered to give people an option to get a TiVo box into their homes with no upfront hardware costs. (a) Monthly plans to get a box home for as little as $16.95 the first month, including the box, as compared to the hundreds of dollars it used to take. (b) 1, 2 & 3-year prepay plans to get the box at a reduced price, or virtually free with the 3-year prepay option.... making it easier than ever before for many, many people to get a TiVo that previously could not afford it.

4. Service-only prepay options will be coming, but haven't been announced yet, making the monthly service-fee even less for those willing and able to prepay.

But I would suggest reading the FAQ which goes into more detail.


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## marksman

Can not say I really like this... On the surface it seems like it would make tivo more accessible to the masses... With upfront committments, though, I suspect credit will be an issue if you don't pre-pay so some of that will be negated.

Never owning the box has its plusses and minuses. Pluses are you can always upgrade to the latest box when your term is up. Downside is you won't be doing any modifications to it.

I just don't know that this model suits tivo as a standalone provider. We will see how it goes, but at this point, I can't see myself renting a TiVo in the future. There is not really any appeal in it for me.


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## Frankenstien

marksman said:


> I can't see myself renting a TiVo in the future. There is not really any appeal in it for me.


At the end of your contract you own the TiVo.


----------



## timckelley

I was just thinking that there are surely a large number of TiVo users out there that don't frequent this forum much, if at all. And a large number of those probably haven't heard the no-lifetime news yet. (I only know about it myself because of TCF.) Some of them may hear about it shortly after Wednesday when they close our window. Some may hear about it down the road when they try to switch to lifetime and can't do it.

Either way, I'm thinking we may see some posts in the future from new users to this forum, who registered here just to gripe that they wished they would have known lifetime was being taken away, and that they would have upgraded had they known about it.

I'm glad I frequent this forum and that I found out in time, because I do in fact plan to upgrade to lifetime before the door closes. 

We may see some steaming mad users joining us here at TCF in the future.


----------



## TheSlyBear

marksman said:


> Never owning the box has its plusses and minuses.


As Frankenstein pointed out, never owning the box is not an option.


----------



## dswallow

timckelley said:


> We may see some steaming mad users joining us here at TCF in the future.


You say that like it'd be a new thing.


----------



## jsmeeker

Do(did) a lot of people switch over to Lifetime after going monthly for several months? I would normally think that it's not that common. Those who wanted it would get it right off the bat. But I'm seeing lots of people asking if they should jump on it before it goes away.


----------



## GadgetGav

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Today my friends would pay hundreds for an 80-hour unit. Next week they get it for nothing and pay as little as $16.95 per month for the service.


Hmmm... I don't buy that argument. It's been a long time since anyone has had to pay hundreds upfront for a box. There have been enough rebates that anyone who wanted to get in on the whole Tivo thing could do so when they could afford it. It's not like it's something you *have* to have next day after all..! 
It just seems like you're duping people into believing they're getting a box for "nothing" when it's really just rolled into the monthly fee and they could end up paying a lot more for the box than the current offers would cost them. I can see that Tivo is a business an needs to make money (we'd all be worse off if Tivo closed it's doors), just don't try to spin it that the box is 'free' or that this is a 'great deal for consumers'. It's just business and we have to like it or lump it.

I am also a bit concerned that the talk is now that when you finish with the initial commitment (at whatever price you chose to pay), you can only get the $12.95 per month subscription rate with a further 1 year commitment. That's a big change isn't it..? Currently, if I decided to dump cable and get HD satellite, I would just cancel my (multi unit) Tivo sub and maybe sell my lifetimed box on ebay and have no other fees to pay. Someone in my position in the future would have an early termination fee to get out of the Tivo service... :down:

I don't think the cellphone carrier model is a particulaly wholesome business model to try to duplicate..!


----------



## mchips

GadgetGav said:


> Hmmm... I don't buy that argument. It's been a long time since anyone has had to pay hundreds upfront for a box. There have been enough rebates that anyone who wanted to get in on the whole Tivo thing could do so when they could afford it. It's not like it's something you *have* to have next day after all..!


 People don't have to "buy that argument," they only have to understand it... 

First, rebates never last forever...

Second, remember what a rebate is... you pay first, then wait for a check to come back to you... pay first...

What he was saying, is that people who cannot afford to, or don't want to put hundreds of dollars upfront, can now get a TiVo home for as little as $16.95 the first month.

Plus, with the 3-year prepay bundled option, you get the box for only $2.80... no need for a rebate there...


----------



## gmitch64

jsmeeker said:


> Do(did) a lot of people switch over to Lifetime after going monthly for several months?


We certainly did.... Was hard to convince the wife that we should pay for it up front, as she certainly wasn't convinced about it. When the price went up a couple of years ago, I asked, and she decided that it was a good thing (tm). Our 2nd box is on month to month now.

Graham


----------



## GadgetGav

mchips said:


> People don't have to "buy that argument," they only have to understand it...


Jeez... picky, picky. OK. I UNDERSTAND it, I just don't believe it. Anyone who wanted a Tivo could have got one for the last year at least without having to pay "hundreds" of dollars.



mchips said:


> First, rebates never last forever...
> 
> Second, remember what a rebate is... you pay first, then wait for a check to come back to you... pay first...


True, and you should never buy something just because of the rebate, but the fact is that it does factor in to the total cost of buying the box even if it takes 10 weeks to get back to you.
And while rebates don't last forever, there seem to have been rebates on Tivos from one source or another for as long as I can remember.

We know that TivoPony and TivoOpsMgr are on the Tivo payroll... is mchips too..? 



mchips said:


> Plus, with the 3-year prepay bundled option, you get the box for only $2.80... no need for a rebate there...


With the 3yr prepay option you have to put down $469 at one time. Kind of knocks the low or no upfront cost argument doesn't it..?
There seems to be too much mixing of arguments, such that it seems like you can have the box for free and no money down. It's either / or people, not both.


----------



## timckelley

Well, when I went monthly @ $6.95, it was a tough decision. When the news came out about no lifetime, psychologically it put me over the edge and and I've just gone and did lifetime. Another factor to consider why some people might only now be going lifetime is that with the abolishment of lifetime, it might cause the market value of a used lifetime to go up, so it might actually be a good (better than before) investment to go lifetime because when you eventually sell it, you'll get that much more money for it.

I suppose over time, a lower and lower percentage of TiVos will be lifetimers, as more new boxes are sold, and more old boxes go out of commission. Maybe one day, the lifetimers will be collecter items worth some money.


----------



## dswallow

Frankly I don't think I'd have any interest in putting out the money for lifetime for the S2 box -- the S3, for sure; but not the old S2... single tuner, no HD, poor quality video encoding... in my household it'd have a real short lifespan if any at all at this point.


----------



## timckelley

dswallow said:


> Frankly I don't think I'd have any interest in putting out the money for lifetime for the S2 box -- the S3, for sure; but not the old S2... single tuner, no HD, poor quality video encoding... in my household it'd have a real short lifespan if any at all at this point.


That's understandable, but the factors to consider in my mind are:

1) How long will I have this TiVo (IOW, how many monthly payments am I likely to make on this thing?)

2) Do I intend to eventually sell it, and if so, what will I get for it under the two scenarios (with/without lifetime)

In my case, it'll probably be years before I even own HD TV, and so I think I'll get years of use out of my two TiVos. I think even if I never sell them (say, if they break and I choose to discard rather than repair or sell), I stand a decent chance of reaching the breakeven period. Furthermore, I'm capable of repairing a bad TiVo if it's just a bad hard drive.

So for me, I think lifetime makes sense.


----------



## jsmeeker

gmitch64 said:


> We certainly did.... Was hard to convince the wife that we should pay for it up front, as she certainly wasn't convinced about it. When the price went up a couple of years ago, I asked, and she decided that it was a good thing (tm). Our 2nd box is on month to month now.
> 
> Graham


Out of curiosity, how long were you a TiVo owner before you switched that box to lifetime??


----------



## dgh

dswallow said:


> Frankly I don't think I'd have any interest in putting out the money for lifetime for the S2 box -- the S3, for sure; but not the old S2... single tuner, no HD, poor quality video encoding... in my household it'd have a real short lifespan if any at all at this point.


At this point, I would think it would still be preferable to buying an S2 and committing to 1 to 3 years of service. The S3 will be out before any of those commitment periods, and with lifetime you can probably get most of your expenditure back when you "trade it in" (on ebay.)


----------



## gmitch64

jsmeeker said:


> Out of curiosity, how long were you a TiVo owner before you switched that box to lifetime??


From Thanksgiving (paid $349 for a 40hr box) thru to end of March (I think that's when the lifetime went up in price), so about 4 months or so... that was more than enough to convince her.

Till we got the 2nd box, we used to joke, that if we ever got divorced, the 2 things we'd end up fighting over, would be the TiVo box, and the cats. We've now got a TiVo box each, and she's more alergic to cats than I am, so I guess we have those 2 issues sorted out...

Graham


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## TiVoEvan74

it's all too complex for my feeble brain...lllllll|||||||\

it's the same with all those cell phone plans and locking you into long service contracts... too complicated, too many involved terms, too many calculations involved... that's one reason we went with a pay as you go plan.

If you need a spreadsheet to figure out which plan is the best, you've lost me already-- and I love doing spreadsheets and data analysis... just not on this stuff.

My headache was from all the permutations and combinations and decision making that would be involved. It was bad enough simply figuring lifetime vs. monthly... but this? Sheesh! It's beyond my ken!


----------



## marksman

gastrof said:


> My guess is that if you get the $20 per month setup, since the TiVo is "free", you never actually buy it.
> 
> When your contract is over, you likely won't be able to switch to a "service only" plan, because you don't own a TiVo.
> 
> You'd have to continue with another "free TiVo" plan, or give the machine back to them.
> 
> Maybe they'd let you buy the TiVo for a discount (hey...it's used), and THEN let you switch to a "service only" plan?


I thought someone official mentioned that you could switch to the service plan.

Frankly if you can't, then standard operating procedure, considering the warranty and such will be to get a TiVo on the 1yr committment pay the $20 a month. When the year is over, send it back to them and get a brand new one and continue paying the same price but have a new unit and new warranty.

I could imagine that is the result they want, but that is how the system works out as it is layed out.


----------



## mchips

GadgetGav said:


> Jeez... picky, picky. OK. I UNDERSTAND it, I just don't believe it.


 Unfortunately, I can tell from your response that you don't truly understand it, or you would believe it...



People have more choices now, that's all... every option is not for every person or every budget... if an option is not for you, don't choose it...

Bottom line, more people will be able to afford TiVo as a result, with these additional options.

People who want to pay upfront, still can... those that can't, or don't want to, no longer have to...

Again, the only thing that has actually _changed_ is the Lifetime option. Many of those people upset over the Lifetime option going away want this whole pricing structure to fail, and therefore don't want to accept it, nor for other people to accept it, because they want TiVo to feel it was a mistake so that they will bring the Lifetime option back.


----------



## mchips

marksman said:


> I thought someone official mentioned that you could switch to the service plan.


 People can, at the end of the initial term, with a 1-year commitment, like today, they can switch to the service-only fee of $12.95.

It's all in the Summary/FAQ:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723


----------



## rainwater

mchips said:


> People can, at the end of the initial term, with a 1-year commitment, like today, they can switch to the service-only fee of $12.95.
> 
> It's all in the Summary/FAQ:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723


They can switch by signing up for a one-year contract at $12.95, to be more precise.


----------



## marksman

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> The most popular option, and one that you will see marketing around, is a free 80-hour box for only $16.95 per month with a three-year commitment. They tell you they don't want a monthly fee? You reply with the fact that they can get a box and a year of service for just $224.
> 
> You don't have to go through EVERY option for every pitch you make to your friends.


I am lightening my stance on all this... As noted TiVo needs to make money. Will this meet that goal? Who knows... We will have to see how it works out. What has been happening for the last 7 years has not worked, so things need to change and change fairly drastically, I suspect.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

Something I just thought of, is how long is it going to take to affect profitability?

Tivo currently has around $500 bucks of my money that they recieved in lump sum in December. Had they implemented this sooner, then they'd have only $60 etc from me by now.

This means that in the short term, for some number of *years*, income and profits are going to be down, not up.



mchips said:


> Let's say the the service-only fee does go up, which is what I presume you're saying, or you'd be happier if you were insinuating that it would go down...


What I meant was the "I pay X for 1 year, then 2 more years at $12.95" comparisons going on. I think that part is very optimistic. 



timckelley said:


> I was just thinking that there are surely a large number of TiVo users out there that don't frequent this forum much, if at all. And a large number of those probably haven't heard the no-lifetime news yet. (I only know about it myself because of TCF.) Some of them may hear about it shortly after Wednesday when they close our window. Some may hear about it down the road when they try to switch to lifetime and can't do it.


Most definitely. This is one of my big peeves right now, you've got a message mechanism built in to tivo that exists for this exact purpose. The *least* they should have done is notify existing customers with a message.

They can notify everyone about an Oscar contest, but not something important?

A lot of folks in here are set in "old timer" mode, and aren't recognising that a great many people out there have only owned their tivo for a week or a few months, and haven't had time to commit to lifetime yet.


----------



## megazone

Fraser+Dief said:


> Tivo currently has around $500 bucks of my money that they recieved in lump sum in December. Had they implemented this sooner, then they'd have only $60 etc from me by now.
> 
> This means that in the short term, for some number of *years*, income and profits are going to be down, not up.


Actually a lifetime payment is amortized over 4 years, so they recognize less revenue a month from lifetime then from the other options.


----------



## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> Get a free TiVo for $469. At the end of three years, the cheapest option for owning the TiVo going forward is $469 for another 3 years.


Unless prices change, this is incorrect. The least expensive option would be going service-only month-to-month for $12.95.

Also, Stephen has said there will be 1-, 2-, and 3-year pre-paid service-only plans, which will likely be discounted off the $12.95 rate, and therefore be even less expensive.


----------



## timckelley

It would really be a huge raw deal if, after converting to lifetime just before the deadline, TiVo were to announce a couple of months later, yet a new pricing change: That in addition to the already announced abolition of lifetime, that they are now going to retroactively abolish it as well, and now we lifetimers are going to have to sign up for a monthly contract, and our $299 is now down the tubes.

I wonder if they could legally do that.


----------



## megazone

No, they can't do that. They sold a contract for lifetime.


----------



## ebf

timckelley said:


> I was just thinking that there are surely a large number of TiVo users out there that don't frequent this forum much, if at all. And a large number of those probably haven't heard the no-lifetime news yet. (I only know about it myself because of TCF.) Some of them may hear about it shortly after Wednesday when they close our window. Some may hear about it down the road when they try to switch to lifetime and can't do it.
> 
> Either way, I'm thinking we may see some posts in the future from new users to this forum, who registered here just to gripe that they wished they would have known lifetime was being taken away, and that they would have upgraded had they known about it...


You're right about not everyone knowing. I sold a couple of free-with-one-year 140 hr boxes last year. I made a point to email those folks to let them know. One friend just upgraded to Lifetime yesterday as a result.


----------



## timckelley

ebf said:


> You're right about not everyone knowing. I sold a couple of free-with-one-year 140 hr boxes last year. I made a point to email those folks to let them know. One friend just upgraded to Lifetime yesterday as a result.


And I upgraded as well - this small empirical evidence strongly suggests that there's a certain percentage of people that will/would upgrade if they knew Lifetime was being taken away. Eventually some of these would-be upgraders will discover that the news was prereleased, and the potential to act on the news was there. But this release was not in the mainstream media, nor (I don't think) was it shown in the messages entry on the TiVo menu. I bet you some people are going to feel cheated out of a better, more effective release of this news, and they're going to feel jipped that from now til eternity, they have missed out on their upgrade opportunity.

Well, I suppose you could make the argument that TiVo didn't have to give any of us warning, and that we on TCF are lucky to have found out before the window was closed. Well, I for one, am glad to have been kept in the loop.


----------



## Atomike

> Well, I for one, am glad to have been kept in the loop.


You put yourself in the loop by actively looking. You were not "kept" in anything.

There is simply no getting around the fact that Tivo is intentionally alienating their strongest supporters in an ultimately backwards attempt to make money.


----------



## marksman

Purduecoz said:


> Reading between the lines here, and noting similar questions going without answer, I'm suspecting that the announcement of the $12.95/mo service only fee going up at least another three dollars should be out around this time next week.
> 
> - Purduecoz


To me this high fee has been part of TiVos problem pretty much since the beginning. Even at ~10.00 it was never really justified. Guide Data and software upgrades (at least for the few years they support your particular model), is all you get...

If they raise the price for monthly service, they will have again gone the wrong direction. The monthly fee needs to be something along the lines of $5 a month or less for units. You still want to charge $20 a month and shift $15 to the hardware, then I am all for it. $13.00 a month for what is provided by TiVo as service, though, is simply silly. As they have more subscribers it becomes more and more silly because the core costs for the major aspects of the service are fixed.

I think they realized they have to offer this kind of pricing in order to justify having a substantial monthly fee at all.

if they were smart they would drop the base monthly fee for service to around ~$5.00 a month. I am sure they can't make it work with their business model, but that is because they keep taking on new costs such as are likely going to be associated with having to manage all these new programs on their side.


----------



## megazone

The news has hit every TiVo-related forum and blog, and some of the mailing lists and news groups, plus other blogs, etc. And it has appeard in many news papers, including USA Today, so, while I'm sure some people won't hear in time, it hasn't been kept quiet.


----------



## Stu_Bee

megazone said:


> The news has hit every TiVo-related forum and blog, and some of the mailing lists and news groups, plus other blogs, etc. And it has appeard in many news papers, including USA Today, so, while I'm sure some people won't hear in time, it hasn't been kept quiet.


=====
Well lets be honest about things. Tivo has many(dare I say, "Most") subscribers email addresses. They could have emailed everyone out a notification about the changes in the plans, but they didn't. Most likely because:
a) A large percentage would get unnessarily confused (what's going on..is my monthly fee changing?)
b) Quite a few people might change to lifetime (which the whole point of this is to get away from..not sign more people up)
=====
I'm not disagreeing with their decision, I think it makes good business sense, and since nothing is really changing for current subscribers I don't see any ethical issues. Maybe they should have considered a longer grace period for those that purchased a Tivo within the last year...(they bought them after probably educating themselves on the available choices). "Hey, I can go month to month for a bit to make sure I want it, then lifetime".
=====


----------



## megazone

Oh, I understand that too - they could've done more, but I don't think it would be best for TiVo or most subscribers. Most people who would've gone lifetime already have, and it'd just confuse a lot of people on monthly, thinking their sub fee is going up, etc. And people on lifetime thinking that somehow their lifetime sub is being terminated. Too much of a headache for TiVo.


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> I was just thinking that there are surely a large number of TiVo users out there that don't frequent this forum much, if at all. And a large number of those probably haven't heard the no-lifetime news yet. (I only know about it myself because of TCF.) Some of them may hear about it shortly after Wednesday when they close our window. Some may hear about it down the road when they try to switch to lifetime and can't do it.
> 
> Either way, I'm thinking we may see some posts in the future from new users to this forum, who registered here just to gripe that they wished they would have known lifetime was being taken away, and that they would have upgraded had they known about it.
> 
> I'm glad I frequent this forum and that I found out in time, because I do in fact plan to upgrade to lifetime before the door closes.
> 
> We may see some steaming mad users joining us here at TCF in the future.


That's the same thing I am thinking. How many threads per day are going to be started "sometime after 3/15" saying 'hey, what a rip off - I have a box that I bought thinking I could switch to Lifetime and now Lifetime is gone, and I never even knew it'

Then I see the posts: 'Look you _moron_ you should have known Lifetime would go away because 1. it was too cheap 2. you should read - and be able to decipher - every press release TiVo puts out 3. You should visit this forum hourly and read every post to keep reasonably up to date on what's going on...besides TiVo had every right to pull your option without notice, and they exercised that right...if you are not happy that TiVo did it without giving some advanced notice then you are just a cranky person who wants poor TiVo to suffer under the unreasonable terms they had offered in the past.'

Then there will be the ones that say: 'I have a 15 month old box; My wife took the kids last year, I was out of work for 7 months, my cat ate my checkbook; I finally got a decent job and I have been saving up, plus I just got my tax refund on 3/19; I was hoping I could get Lifetime to save money over the remaining 3-4 years I expect to use the box. This really stinks for me, I am so mad, disappointed, hate TiVo, etc....'


----------



## megazone

And that's life. More than once in my life I heard about a great deal after it had ended, or found out about a price change after I'd made plans based on the old pricing. That's just how it is, I don't expect every company to keep me informed of every change they make, unless it is going to show up on my bill.


----------



## ebf

megazone said:


> The news has hit every TiVo-related forum and blog, and some of the mailing lists and news groups, plus other blogs, etc. And it has appeard in many news papers, including USA Today, so, while I'm sure some people won't hear in time, it hasn't been kept quiet.


But it is not like TiVo made the extra effort to get the word out to current customers themselves.

Don't forget, hundreds of 140hr boxes are just reaching their one-year anniversary in April-- remember the "get a box free for a year prepaid" deal last year? It is those folks that will now be hooked  and not used to paying monthly that would most likely jump on Lifetime. (My friend included.) But it will be gone by time their original contracts expire in a month.

Poor them, if they don't read USAToday...


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoEvan74 said:


> it's all too complex for my feeble brain...lllllll|||||||\
> 
> it's the same with all those cell phone plans and locking you into long service contracts... too complicated, too many involved terms, too many calculations involved... that's one reason we went with a pay as you go plan.
> 
> If you need a spreadsheet to figure out which plan is the best, you've lost me already-- and I love doing spreadsheets and data analysis... just not on this stuff.
> 
> My headache was from all the permutations and combinations and decision making that would be involved. It was bad enough simply figuring lifetime vs. monthly... but this? Sheesh! It's beyond my ken!


I am sure TiVo would be willing to let you just throw a dart to pick a plan.


----------



## MighTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> No. Once the Product Lifetime option is no longer available next week, there will not be an option to purchase it, regardless of whether or not the box being activated is new.


That is a shame, perhaps it would have been more difficult to manage but the grandfathered lifetime swap seems to have been manageable.

Since existing units would have already paid for at least 1 year of month to month it seems that offering the ability to upgrade to lifetime in the future would have been a win win situation!


----------



## TiVoStephen

Hi folks,

We'd like to clarify a few points regarding Product Lifetime going away:

(These are updated in the sticky post as well.)

Here are the details about Product Lifetime going away: Once it goes away sometime shortly after Wednesday 3/15, you will not be able to choose Product Lifetime when you activate or re-activate service via www.tivo.com/activate/ or Manage My Account.

This means that if you don't have Product Lifetime already, you won't be able to get it. New customers cannot purchase it. Existing customers cannot purchase it. Existing customers cannot convert their existing monthly contracts into Product Lifetime. It is no longer available as an option.

Are there any exceptions? Yes. We'd like to clarify a few points regarding Product Lifetime going away:


To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call and activate lifetime service on the box. This is provided there is no conflict with any other terms of your purchase (such as the requirement to activate service by 3/31 for the current 80 hour offer on tivo.com). Activating Product Lifetime Service will not be available online, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Boxes purchased on or after 3/16/06 will not be eligible to activate Product Lifetime service.
Due to the terms of our relationship with Humax, however, new Humax DVD Recorder products not previously activated for service (that is, they have no activation history) will continue to be eligible for Product Lifetime Service activation. They are not affected by the 3/15/06 purchase cutoff or the 4/15/06 Product Lifetime activation cutoff. Again, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Humax DVD Recorder products which have already been activated for service have until 4/15/06 to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service. After 4/15/06, Humax DVD Recorder products with an activation history will no longer have Product Lifetime Service as an activation option.
If you have a special situation not covered in thea bove, please call TiVo Customer Support (1-877-367-8486), explain your situation, and they will do their best to help you.

Best regards,
Stephen, Pony & the TiVo Team


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## zaknafein

Okay, I haven't read this side of the forum in, well, probably a year or two. I just happened to read the OP, and say *19.95*/month for the subscription, and nearly crapped mysef.

I didn't know that TiVo had gone to a model where you pay for the box via the service fee.


----------



## marksman

HDTiVo said:


> 2Q06 TiVo's operating loss was $449K. Interest was $732K, and after taxes the net profit was $240K. So TiVo did come out ahead by that much.
> 
> Now you don't want me to use interest. OK. Without it TiVo lost ~$500K, not adjusting taxes, etc. which would lessen the loss. TiVo had $103.8M in cash. At that rate of loss, TiVo had 50 yrs of cash.
> 
> But wait, there is more...
> 
> You don't want to use the interest on the cash? TiVo's defered revenues were $108.4M, greater than the cash on hand. The unamortized advanced subscription payments from Lifetime was greater than the cash position. So the entire interest earned plus some is creditable to the operation.
> 
> I hadn't done that last analysis before, but it is nice to add to my argument.


If we need to look at TiVo's interest to try and tweak them to profitability, the correct course of action is to fire all the employees and shut down operations and just earn interest. Their profits would skyrocket.


----------



## marksman

erikbrowne said:


> Well...yes. The Tivo service costs more than cable because it's more expensive to provide the service. It's more expensive because the service is better than the cable service. So you're paying more for Tivo, but you're also getting more.


What is more expensive to provide? Cable services have provided channel guide data nearly since cable has existed. Yet they have never felt the need to charge $10 a month for the data.

What more are you getting? The only other thing you get is the software. If your box becomes out-dated you don't even get that, but you still get to pay the full service fee.

The problem with TiVo is NOT its pricing, it is not its plans. The reason why TiVo does not make money and never has made money is because their cost structure is significantly out of whack and always has been. Moves like this that only complicate the structure and needs of the company likely requires MORE employees and more money to support. They are doing the absolute wrong thing. They need to be figuring out how to bring all prices down significantly at the same time cutting their expenses extensively. That is how they will become succesful, not just continually trying to jack with your revenue models because you felt they were not appealing enough.


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## classicsat

GadgetGav said:


> With the 3yr prepay option you have to put down $469 at one time. Kind of knocks the low or no upfront cost argument doesn't it..?
> There seems to be too much mixing of arguments, such that it seems like you can have the box for free and no money down. It's either / or people, not both.


People are arguing that Lifetime is/was somehow good ( with creative accounting and whatever), and are stating that becuase Lifetime is no longer around, their goes their reason to buy further TiVos or recommend them to other people.

Quite simply, IMO, the Prepay options are there as an alternative to Lifetime, for those that DO understand the position TiVo is in.


----------



## classicsat

TiVoEvan74 said:


> it's all too complex for my feeble brain...lllllll|||||||\
> 
> iIf you need a spreadsheet to figure out which plan is the best, you've lost me already-- and I love doing spreadsheets and data analysis... just not on this stuff.


Well, I am your oppisite ish. I love making spreadsheets, and have in fact made one to compare the prices/costs, weighed against a couple factors.


> My headache was from all the permutations and combinations and decision making that would be involved. It was bad enough simply figuring lifetime vs. monthly... but this? Sheesh! It's beyond my ken!


Then you ought to hire me, it was easy as pie to me. I had the basic form within an hour.


----------



## classicsat

marksman said:


> What is more expensive to provide? Cable services have provided channel guide data nearly since cable has existed. Yet they have never felt the need to charge $10 a month for the data.


That is because 
A: The data is leaner
B: Subsidised by advertising ( and more eyes)
C: Delivered on an existing data path. ( the reason the DirecTV DVR fee is cheap)
D: The lion's share of Cable revenue comes from selling subs to pay channels.

Wile TiVo does have some advertising and ancillary revenue, they get most of their revenue from the service fee., which pays for communuication to deliver the richer guide data, or the internet features on broadband connected boxes, pluse pays for the servers for the service.


----------



## cwerdna

Atomike said:


> You put yourself in the loop by actively looking. You were not "kept" in anything.


I agree. I've been busy and haven't been monitoring TCF as much as I used to ages ago. If I hadn't stumbled across this here or on sites like techbargains, I'd have not known, wouldn't have spread the news to friends of mine nor picked up an additional 80 hour box and put lifetime on it.


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## cwerdna

classicsat said:


> People are arguing that Lifetime is/was somehow good ( with creative accounting and whatever), and are stating that becuase Lifetime is no longer around, their goes their reason to buy further TiVos or recommend them to other people.


I would still recommend Tivo to others because it makes no sense to watch TV without it and because it's such a great product. The problem is that lifetime going away makes it a hell of lot tougher to convince anyone to buy (it was already bad enough before).


----------



## TiVoEvan74

I just wonder if the alternative model would have been a PC type model with different hardware products (S2, S3, S3+) with occasional new OS feature updates for an additional bit of $ (e.g., internet service, pictures, etc.) and maybe even different service levels--i.e., Basic, TiVo Plus, TiVo Plus Net, etc.

One could even imagine peripheral sales... backup hard drives, iPod conversion plug ins, etc. Oh, well, what do I know? I'm just a happy TiVo user who pities the poor new buyers trying to wade through service contracts.

Oh, I get it... they need to set up roaming charges and coverage zones a la cell companies. They could even have a TiVo to Tivo friends network where you could transfer your shows from one person to another. Right!


----------



## kimnicho

cwerdna said:


> I would still recommend Tivo to others because it makes no sense to watch TV without it and because it's such a great product. The problem is that lifetime going away makes it a hell of lot tougher to convince anyone to buy (it was already bad enough before).


Actually, this monthly plan might convince people like me to join who just don't want to fork over $500 upfront (even though it will save them money in the long run) for box + lifetime membership. But I have a Q about the New monthly subscriptions - After the 1,2,3 year term is up, can I upgrade my TIVO box to the "new" S3 ?


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoEvan74 said:


> Oh, I get it... they need to set up roaming charges and coverage zones a la cell companies.


Sounds like Slingbox is a good acquisition for TiVo then.


----------



## HDTiVo

kimnicho said:


> After the 1,2,3 year term is up, can I upgrade my TIVO box to the "new" S3 ?


define upgrade...


----------



## PhillyGuy

kimnicho said:


> Actually, this monthly plan might convince people like me to join who just don't want to fork over $500 upfront (even though it will save them money in the long run) for box + lifetime membership. But I have a Q about the New monthly subscriptions - After the 1,2,3 year term is up, can I upgrade my TIVO box to the "new" S3 ?


You can sign up for a new 1,2,3 year term to get the new box and start the contract all over.


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## steveliv

good news... i ordered my TiVo on the 9th and chose the regular free shipping option....

Mar 14, 2006 

7:21 AM 
On FedEx vehicle for delivery 
AUGUSTA, GA 

3:22 AM 
At local FedEx facility 
AUGUSTA, GA 

Mar 13, 2006 

10:46 PM 
Departed FedEx location 
ELLENWOOD, GA 

8:32 PM 
Arrived at FedEx location 
ELLENWOOD, GA 

Mar 10, 2006 

9:20 PM 
Left origin 
IRVING, TX 


not too shabby for the free shipping option, and i will beat the 15th deadline

steven


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## Chunky

I was planning on getting a second TIVO lifetime. I will just use vcr tapes now - thanks for making up my mind TIVO! My guess is within a year, my lifetime box may not be good either, with this wonderful business decision.


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## timckelley

Chunky said:


> My guess is within a year, my lifetime box may not be good either, with this wonderful business decision.


I'll be very perturbed if they do away with lifetime retroactively. I just yesterday forked out $299 and upgraded my second box to lifetime.


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## steveliv

as far as i have read and heard, the ability to purchase a lifetime subscription is going away, if you have or bought a lifetime sub on or before the 15th of march, then everything is ok, your box will continute to function as has always functioned...

steven


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## Chunky

steveliv said:


> as far as i have read and heard, the ability to purchase a lifetime subscription is going away, if you have or bought a lifetime sub on or before the 15th of march, then everything is ok, your box will continute to function as has always functioned...
> 
> steven


Not exactly what I meant. I guess I'm just a little frustrated and decided against any monthly plan or some prepay plan. I will not get a second box and wonder if this will deter others as well? What impact will this 'business decision' have on TIVO and if they fold, my box is no good. That was what I was getting at. I like to think I am fairly normal and average. If it bothers me, it will bother others as well.


----------



## JustAllie

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> [*]Due to the terms of our relationship with Humax, however, new Humax DVD Recorder products not previously activated for service (that is, they have no activation history) will continue to be eligible for Product Lifetime Service activation. They are not affected by the 3/15/06 purchase cutoff or the 4/15/06 Product Lifetime activation cutoff. Again, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Humax DVD Recorder products which have already been activated for service have until 4/15/06 to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service. After 4/15/06, Humax DVD Recorder products with an activation history will no longer have Product Lifetime Service as an activation option.


Yay Humax! 

BTW, does this include the Humax units you're selling on the TiVo website? That is, can I tell a friend to buy a package from TiVo.com that includes a Humax 40-hour DVD recorder with TiVo and 12 months of service, then when they call to activate it, request an upgrade to lifetime? Will the lifetime price still be $299?

I have a friend who's been on the verge of buying one of these for a while and simply could not figure out a way to get one and activate it before tomorrow's deadline.


----------



## MighTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Due to the terms of our relationship with Humax, however, new Humax DVD Recorder products not previously activated for service (that is, they have no activation history) will continue to be eligible for Product Lifetime Service activation. They are not affected by the 3/15/06 purchase cutoff or the 4/15/06 Product Lifetime activation cutoff. Again, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Humax DVD Recorder products which have already been activated for service have until 4/15/06 to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service. After 4/15/06, Humax DVD Recorder products with an activation history will no longer have Product Lifetime Service as an activation option.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen, Pony & the TiVo Team


Thanks for the details!
Since you can manage the future lifetime purchases on unactivated Humax units I think it is a shame you didn't choose to offer future conversion for any existing unit already in service.

*For TiVo this would have meant:*

All the payments for existing service + lifetime on these boxes
High demand for immediate purchases and activation 
*For the customer:*

Trust in TiVo knowing that TiVo service agreements don't significantly change for boxes we already have in service
Push to get another TiVo even if lifetime isn't immediately affordable with the knowledge it could be upgraded later
Improved resale value for existing units
While I understand dropping lifetime capability on future purchases, allowing future upgrades on boxes already on service seems like a win - win for TiVo and their customers.

_(This doesn't impact me much though - I have 4 stand alone Series 2 TiVo's only one is month to month and I have an unsubscribed series 1)_


----------



## HDTiVo

steveliv said:


> good news...


Much better news... the 15th deadline DOES NOT APPLY to you, at least not MARCH 15th.


----------



## HDTiVo

Chunky said:


> I was planning on getting a second TIVO lifetime. I will just use vcr tapes now - thanks for making up my mind TIVO! My guess is within a year, my lifetime box may not be good either, with this wonderful business decision.


Chunky,

I knew you meant TiVo, Inc. shutting down. 

TiVo, Inc. is not shutting down anytime soon. Trust me.


----------



## Stu_Bee

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> We'd like to clarify a few points regarding Product Lifetime going away:


The word "clarify" is used three times. I believe this term is used to indicate something that has always been the case, but not understood.
I think these announcements are things that have changed (helped along by your Humax Partner complaints no doubt)...such as an 'addendum', or 'correction'

So you've basically:
- Pushed out the end of Lifetime activation for a month.
- Humax DVD Recorder Tivos can always be purchased and activated with Lifetime.


----------



## HDTiVo

Stu_bee said:


> So you've basically:
> - Pushed out the end of Lifetime activation for a month.





TiVoOpsMgr said:


> To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call and activate lifetime service on the box.


The 'Clarification' reads like my 3 monthly boxes purchased and subed between 15 and 36 months ago remain eligible to switch to Lifetime until 4/15/06.

The Lifetime extension to 4/15/06 is not just on new, never before subed units.

How much will Lifetime cost and/or what will be the rebate for new Humax DVD boxes?


----------



## TiVoStephen

HDTiVo, your interpretation of the clarification is correct.

For Humax DVD models, Product Lifetime will remain $299. The rebates are subject to change and have not been announced after the current rebate expires.


----------



## TiVoStephen

Folks, I just posted a couple of edits to the Summary.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723

In particular, we've now announced that you can purchase Product Lifetime from tivo.com (at http://www.tivo.com/activate/) up to Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8pm Pacific. (Prior to this post, I had said the last safe day to purchase Product Lifetime was Wednesday, tomorrow.)


----------



## mchips

Stu_Bee said:


> The word "clarify" is used three times. I believe this term is used to indicate something that has always been the case, but not understood.
> I think these announcements are things that have changed (helped along by your Humax Partner complaints no doubt)...such as an 'addendum', or 'correction'
> 
> So you've basically:
> - Pushed out the end of Lifetime activation for a month.
> - Humax DVD Recorder Tivos can always be purchased and activated with Lifetime.


 People can find anything to argue about...

Is the glass half-full or half-empty... you don't have to answer that, as we could probably debate that for days...

You're assuming that this is new to TiVo as well, by stating that you believe that these are "things that have changed"... you can't possibly know that...

But that's all immaterial... Per Merriam-Webster, immaterial means "of no substantial consequence."

Even if it is new/changed, why not just say thank you for extending it another month, instead of arguing semantics... 

Another way to look at it...

People were griping that they only got a week to upgrade to Lifetime (instead of being grateful they got any time at all)... TiVo comes forward to announce that while the cutoff to get Lifetime ends on 3/16, people have yet another 4 weeks to purchase Lifetime on any box purchased before that deadline... either because it wasn't made clear before, or they decided to extend it to give their customers more time, either way, it's of no substantial consequence. People now have 5 weeks instead of 1 to upgrade to Lifetime.

That's the problem with the TCF anymore... people can find anything to gripe about, and do...

I mentioned the 1-year commitment for the service-only fee, and someone just had to correct me, or so they thought they were, by pointing out that it's a 1-year "contract" to "be more precise." A contract is a commitment...

If people are going to argue semantics, we'll have an endless supply of things to argue about...


----------



## jlb

I am monthly and will stick (long past the time to do it on one box......). For me, I anxiously await what sort of pricing options there will be on the S3. If "low" enough, I would get one, even without having HD at home right now.


----------



## Stu_Bee

mchips said:


> People can find anything to argue about....


I don't think I was arguing (hopefully). I was trying to point out that this was a new thing.......the Lifetime option being pushed out an extra month. I had only seen one comment in this thread since Stephen's post, and I thought it was more noteworthy, and not really a 'clarification' but an important new development.

Also interesting is that if someone really wants/needs/can't live without lifetime. The Humax DVD Recorder still seems to be an ongoing option.
===
I personally haven't complained about the new pricing plans. I think it's Tivos decision, and if it is the wrong one, they will discover it after a few months, and correct it.
====
ps: From Stephen's newer post: "In particular, we've now announced that you can purchase Product Lifetime from tivo.com (at http://www.tivo.com/activate/) up to Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8pm."

I'll be quiet now..me confused.


----------



## mchips

Stu_Bee said:


> I was trying to point out that this was a new thing.......the Lifetime option being pushed out an extra month. I had only seen one comment in this thread since Stephen's post, and I thought it was more noteworthy, and not really a 'clarification' but an important new development.


 Of course you were, Stu... 

We now know, thanks to you, that he didn't just use the word clarify once, or twice, but he used it "three times." You counted them! 

I'd have never known that otherwise, as I certainly wasn't going to take the time to count them.

And, according to you, these announcements were actually an "addendum" or "correction", not a clarification because you believe that these are things that have changed.

And that it was "helped along by (their) Humax Partner complaints no doubt." You have no doubt that Humax complained about it, hmm, and that it helped to facilitate the "changes" or "addendum" or "correction", but not clarification, because that was just the wrong word. And that it must have taken Humax "complaining" about it to get the Humax part changed.

That's what I get out of your post, and using your words...

Even in your last post, which sounds better, you're still assuming that this is new to TiVo as well... it may have been, but it also could have always been part of the plan, and just not made clear (among all the other things they have had to clarify in the more than 30 pages of people's questions, concerns, gripes, and complaints).


----------



## Bierboy

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> ...In particular, we've now announced that you can purchase Product Lifetime from tivo.com (at http://www.tivo.com/activate/) up to Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8pm. (Prior to this post, I had said the last safe day to purchase Product Lifetime was Wednesday.)


Pssssst.....is that PST?


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> I certainly wasn't going to take the time to count them.





mchips said:


> People can find anything to argue about...


----------



## angra

> That's the problem with the TCF anymore... people can find anything to gripe about, and do...


Best line of the thread! Thanks!


----------



## TiVoStephen

Bierboy said:


> Pssssst.....is that PST?


Oops. Yes. I had said so in the Summary thread, but left it off up above. I've now edited my as well post here to add "Pacific." Thanks for the catch.


----------



## mchips

Stu_Bee said:


> I'll be quiet now..me confused.


 That wasn't what I was trying to see happen...

You have a right to your opinions as anyone else...

The griping has just gotten out of hand, imho, and I wasn't directing my comments at you entirely... that post of yours just gave me an opportunity to address something I've been wanting to say for a while now...


----------



## GadgetGav

mchips said:


> Unfortunately, I can tell from your response that you don't truly understand it, or you would believe it...


Wrong. A belief is not based on understanding. You can't tell me what to believe just by making me understand something. Go look it up, you seem to like looking things up in the dicitonary.



mchips said:


> Again, the only thing that has actually _changed_ is the Lifetime option. Many of those people upset over the Lifetime option going away want this whole pricing structure to fail, and therefore don't want to accept it, nor for other people to accept it, because they want TiVo to feel it was a mistake so that they will bring the Lifetime option back.


When did the fact that you have to sign up for a year to get the $12.95 / month come in..? That's a change.
Everyone who has lifetime and is complaining about this pricing structure is only complaining because of what they feel would have been a good option when the S3 comes out. It makes no difference to them as an ongoing thing in the next few months. If they're offering opinions on whether this was a good idea or not, it's an indication of how ikely they are to re-sign with Tivo for an S3 under the new plans. That could be useful for Tivo to know, but the proof will be if sales of S2s or S3s pick up significantly over the rest of the year. Personally, I dont _believe_ they will... whether you _understand_ my reasoning or not, I really couldn't care less.



mchips said:


> That's the problem with the TCF anymore... people can find anything to gripe about, and do...





mchips said:


> Of course you were, Stu...
> We now know, thanks to you, that he didn't just use the word clarify once, or twice, but he used it "three times." You counted them!
> I'd have never known that otherwise, as I certainly wasn't going to take the time to count them.


I hadn't been to this forum for a long time and now I remember why...


----------



## Stu_Bee

mchips said:


> Of course you were, Stu...


Well..maybe my post was a little attitudish.


----------



## Troy J B

Perhaps we can start a campaign to encourage TiVo to bring back lifetime in time for the Series3... not necessarily the too good of deal $299 lifetime. At 12.95/mo over 48 months that is $621.60, at $19.95/mo over 48 it's $957.60. Pick a number in the
$600-$1000 range and at least offer us the choice of buying lifetime. That choice will appease the masses angered by the move, and for those of us who truly do not want to add yet another monthly bill at least have an option to go lifetime. 

We understand the $299 was to good of a deal, but do not let a test group decide the fate of the lifetime. Leave that in the hands of the marketplace.


----------



## TiVoStephen

GadgetGav said:


> When did the fact that you have to sign up for a year to get the $12.95 / month come in..? That's a change.


I don't recall off the top of my head but it was about six months ago I believe.


----------



## marksman

bootedbear said:


> As Frankenstein pointed out, never owning the box is not an option.


Unfortunately that was not clear for me at the time I made the reply, and unfortunately, I think it makes things worse not better.

Since service is $12.95, can I just pay ~$6.00 a month for 12 months and buy a box without the service?

The way this pricing works out the value of the box is only around $72.00. Considering it is being paid out over time, the actual value is even less than that.

The same business model TiVo has always had is apparently in full effect. Subsidize the cost of the boxes and significantly over-charge on the "Service" fee. The problem is, for me a customers, that the box has tangible value and the service is of very little real value. Guide data and potentially some upgrades to the software.

In essence this changes nothing in the dynamic. The only real new addition is the ability to pay full unsubsidized retail for a box, and pay the over-priced monthly service charge.

I just don't see any more TiVos in my future. It is not just because of this either, it is because a lot of factors. This, however, did not make them any more appealing to me as an option in the future, nor really as a recommendation. I also don't agree with all the people bemoaning the loss of Lifetime service. Lifetime service was always a mistake.

Personally, I shed my evangelical TiVo gear many years ago. It is all about practicality and usefulness for me and there are simply a lot of factors for me there. I think integrated solutions are going to be the peak lifeblood of the pvr, and I think in 10 years PVRs will not even exist as a mass-market product because we will have on-demand access to pretty much anything we want.

I am intrigued by some of the things people are doing rolling their own solutions, and such a project is certainly something I am capable of undertaking.

Finally, I have been following TiVo from the beginning. I appreciate the product and the profound impact it has had on my life. It has been disheartening to see them never realize their potential in all these years. It is almost a cosmic joke in some way. That being said, PVRs will exist with or without TiVo tomorrow, so whatever happens happens. I would like to see them become profitable and realize their potential, but as I mentioned above, other forces are likely to keep a tight window over the entire PVR market, and again, it won't likely be what it is today in 10 years.


----------



## jfh3

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Folks, I just posted a couple of edits to the Summary.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723
> 
> In particular, we've now announced that you can purchase Product Lifetime from tivo.com (at http://www.tivo.com/activate/) up to Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8pm Pacific. (Prior to this post, I had said the last safe day to purchase Product Lifetime was Wednesday, tomorrow.)


I know others have said it, but I'll add to it:

You are to be commended for the time you take here to provide TCF with timely information and work tirelessly to dispell FUD. Although I'm disappointed that the lifetime option is going away, rather than being re-priced, it's a credit to Tivo that they didn't just "pull the plug without any advance notice".

P.S. Please make sure the Tivo attornies trademark DMR.


----------



## GadgetGav

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I don't recall off the top of my head but it was about six months ago I believe.


Thanks Stephen. Like I said - haven't been here in quite a while and as a 'lifer' it hasn't really applied to me (until the S3s come out anyway...)


----------



## Fubar411

marksman said:


> I just don't see any more TiVos in my future. It is not just because of this either, it is because a lot of factors. This, however, did not make them any more appealing to me as an option in the future, nor really as a recommendation. I also don't agree with all the people bemoaning the loss of Lifetime service. Lifetime service was always a mistake.
> 
> Personally, I shed my evangelical TiVo gear many years ago. It is all about practicality and usefulness for me and there are simply a lot of factors for me there. I think integrated solutions are going to be the peak lifeblood of the pvr, and I think in 10 years PVRs will not even exist as a mass-market product because we will have on-demand access to pretty much anything we want.
> 
> I am intrigued by some of the things people are doing rolling their own solutions, and such a project is certainly something I am capable of undertaking.
> 
> Finally, I have been following TiVo from the beginning. I appreciate the product and the profound impact it has had on my life. It has been disheartening to see them never realize their potential in all these years. It is almost a cosmic joke in some way. That being said, PVRs will exist with or without TiVo tomorrow, so whatever happens happens. I would like to see them become profitable and realize their potential, but as I mentioned above, other forces are likely to keep a tight window over the entire PVR market, and again, it won't likely be what it is today in 10 years.


I wholeheartedly agree with this excellent post. I have been with TiVo since S2 first hit the shelves. But I see TiVo's latest move only as alienating the consumer while there is stiff competition from the real service providers - the cable and dish companies. TiVo has always been plagued by viewpoint that since we're already paying for the channels, we should have a convenient way to store and watch. This goes back all the way to when people were first hooking VCRs up to cable boxes. It is unfortunate that TiVo will become less and less relevant in the arena they helped define. Similiar to how everyone uses a "Xerox" machine, but they're not Xerox machines.

I hope that the series 3 TiVo will eventually be available with a lifetime subscription. If not, I'll just live with whatever Comcast provides (I've heard Moxi isn't all that bad)


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Folks, I just posted a couple of edits to the Summary.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723
> 
> In particular, we've now announced that you can purchase Product Lifetime from tivo.com (at http://www.tivo.com/activate/) up to Thursday, March 16, 2006 at 8pm Pacific. (Prior to this post, I had said the last safe day to purchase Product Lifetime was Wednesday, tomorrow.)


At this rate, maybe we can get enough extensions to keep Lifetime around forever!


----------



## moonscape

jsmeeker said:


> Do(did) a lot of people switch over to Lifetime after going monthly for several months? I would normally think that it's not that common. Those who wanted it would get it right off the bat. But I'm seeing lots of people asking if they should jump on it before it goes away.


i just got lifetime on two boxes but it was 2 factors that did it. when i bought them last year, it was for my mom's who has alzheimer's and i spend 5 months/year here. she hasn't a clue what to do with them when i'm not here, so i thought i'd just cancel service when i'm not here, so pay 100/yr for service on the two.

now with the new policy of a few months ago that i could no longer do that, and now lifetime going away, it pushed me over the edge and i bought. i'll sell one or both of the boxes in a couple of years.

had i known all this last year, i wouldn't have bought the dang things for her place (okay, maybe one and gotten lifetime right away.)

it's tough buying a product and calculating based on one set of rules, then having it all change. yeah yeah, i know - i'm not complaining so much as just frustrated.

then, tivo only gave me 5 months credit (vs the 7 they should have) for not cancelling the box when i requested. well, they seemed to have cancelled it, then reinstated it without being requested. someone else was paying my mom's credit card bill and this only came to light this year. due to circumstances i didn't know, and that's not tivo's fault - but frustrating? you bet!


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## MighTiVo

marksman said:


> I just don't see any more TiVos in my future. It is not just because of this either, it is because a lot of factors. This, however, did not make them any more appealing to me as an option in the future, nor really as a recommendation. I also don't agree with all the people bemoaning the loss of Lifetime service. Lifetime service was always a mistake.


I couldn't disagree more.

The biggest obstacle of most consumers getting a TiVo seems to be accepting the fact they they will have to pay a monthly fee to record TV. Including the service with the purchase of the unit or as a lifetime subscription fee is a way to get over that obstacle. Also offering a monthly fee provides a lower cost of entry for a mass market.

Even so I am ok with TiVo removing the lifetime option on future units although I think the better choice would have been to allow existing subscribers the ability to change to lifetime and new subscribers wouldn't have that choice.
Making changes to the options available to existing subscribers just makes cstomer uncomfortable in considering what might change next.

Still no surprise TiVo makses changes to the agreement though, HME $99 -> $49 -> free, at least that was a move in the right direction!

To make it easier perhaps simply remove lifetime subscription as an option from the S3 box only.


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## arndta0718

I posted this in the stockholm forum but then saw this one and thought it would get answered better here..
Hi, first post and just trying to verify something. I have two tivos. I have had them for a while. One is a series 2, the other is a humax dvd recorder. I called tonight to upgrade them to lifetime. I am currently paying $6.95 for each. (I called to cancel because we have cable DVR and they said they would lower the first $12.95 to $6.96) Anyway, the rep told me if I keep them at the monthly rate they both are transferable to other units (such as series 3) but if I upgraded them to lifetime I could not transfer them to other units. Is this true? He said that My $6.95 pricing for 2 units will never change. So I didn't upgrade. I am not sure if I trust him though. He sounded a little iffy. My mom checked her account with him and her lifetime is not transferable to another unit (I heard some older models had this option?) I am confused as to what to do? I thought about just upgrading the series 2 to lifetime but that would be the one I would want to transfer to the series 3, which the rep said I would not be able to do with lifetime. Also is it true that Humax tivos will be able to upgrade to lifetime for 2 more years??


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## jfh3

arndta0718 said:


> I am currently paying $6.95 for each. (I called to cancel because we have cable DVR and they said they would lower the first $12.95 to $6.96) Anyway, the rep told me if I keep them at the monthly rate they both are transferable to other units (such as series 3) but if I upgraded them to lifetime I could not transfer them to other units. Is this true?


As I understand it, yes. You can transfer the monthly rates, but not the lifetime subs.

As for your question on the Humax DVD units, you can't upgrade after Thursday, but you can purchase lifetime on a new, never activated unit.


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## kimnicho

HDTiVo said:


> define upgrade...


Basically, I'm thinking of getting a 1-year commitment at which time hopefully, the Tivo3 will be available and I can return the Tivo2 Box and renew with a New Tivo3 box?


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## tazzftw

Gotta love Loopholes! An unexpected twist to the wording of the contracts. So lifetime will somewhat continue with Humax DVD Models. And currently on the TiVo website, you can get a 40-hour Recorder for 249.99+299=548.99, of course after calling TiVo to active since it can't be done normally.


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## jfh3

Don't you wonder why a 3 year pre-pay couldn't have been $467.64 so Tivo could advertise "get a Tivo box and service for only $12.99 a month"?

Now it's "only $13.03" ...


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## MighTiVo

jfh3 said:


> Don't you wonder why a 3 year pre-pay couldn't have been $467.64 so Tivo could advertise "get a Tivo box and service for only $12.99 a month"?
> 
> Now it's "only $13.03" ...


Or $466.20 => Sign up for TiVo service pre-paying the regular price of $12.95 a month for three years in advance and get the recorder free.


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## uclakidd

Ever since the TiVo announcement, I bought another TiVo and lifetimed two TiVos. I wonder how much influx of cash they're getting.


----------



## cwerdna

kimnicho said:


> Basically, I'm thinking of getting a 1-year commitment at which time hopefully, the Tivo3 will be available and I can return the Tivo2 Box and renew with a New Tivo3 box?


Who would you return it to? You own the box. You either you bought it at a store or thru Tivo as a bundle of service + box. See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3856659&highlight=610#post3856659 for a table of prices of the bundled service + Tivo. You could also just buy a box, but pay $12.95/mo. The box will have little value if you try to sell it and it has no service.

You'd be best off getting it ASAP, putting on lifetime and turning around selling it. I'd bet you could fetch at least $200 - $250 for it.

The Series 3 Tivo will require a subscription of its own. They haven't announced any prices yet.


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## TiVoEvan74

"Hi, first post and just trying to verify something. I have two tivos. I have had them for a while. One is a series 2, the other is a humax dvd recorder. I called tonight to upgrade them to lifetime. I am currently paying $6.95 for each. (I called to cancel because we have cable DVR and they said they would lower the first $12.95 to $6.96) "

Wow! Didn't know they would do that! This is getting more and more bazaar! (spelling pun intended)


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## dolcevita

uclakidd said:


> Ever since the TiVo announcement, I bought another TiVo and lifetimed two TiVos. I wonder how much influx of cash they're getting.


I thought the same thing (and lifetimed my Humax recorder). Bet the influx of cash from people upgrading their service is one of the reasons they extended the deadline a month...


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## HDTiVo

tivoopsmgr said:


> Service-only prepay options: We also announced that there are going to be service-only prepay options (available once Product Lifetime goes away, later this week). These prepay options let you avoid a monthly fee by pre-paying a lump sum. There are options for one, two and three years of service. Here are the details:
> 
> For one-year of service, you can prepay $155.
> For two years of service, you prepay $299.
> For three years of service, you can prepay $399.
> For service-only prepay packages, no early termination fee applies, but there is no refund given after the 30-day money back guarantee period.


I am still trying to find a discount rate that makes $155 upfront cheaper than $155.40 over 12 months.


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## Sirshagg

HDTiVo said:


> I am still trying to find a discount rate that makes $155 upfront cheaper than $155.40 over 12 months.


0.2574%
Oooooooh!


----------



## dswallow

HDTiVo said:


> I am still trying to find a discount rate that makes $155 upfront cheaper than $155.40 over 12 months.


I think the 12 month prepay's purpose in life is mainly for those who don't want to be bothered with monthly bills or those giving gifts. A savings isn't really the goal.


----------



## Fraser+Dief

MighTiVo said:


> *For the customer:*
> 
> Trust in TiVo knowing that TiVo service agreements don't significantly change for boxes we already have in service


This part is key. Before this latest announcement, I had complete confidence in Tivo as a company.

Now, I'll always have that little lingering doubt in the back of my mind, wondering when some beancounter is going to decide that more financial benefit than loss will come from changing the service agreement and no longer honouring lifetime.


----------



## rlcarr

They can't legally not honor existing Lifetimes.


----------



## Sirshagg

rlcarr said:


> They can't legally not honor existing Lifetimes.


But they could probably make non-Stock (upgraded) units stop working.


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## TiVoStephen

I honestly wish folks would stop speculating about us not honoring Product Lifetime.

Have any of you seen any evidence we would do that? No.

We have honored some of them for more than seven years now. We're not going to stop honoring them. We are obligated to honor them.


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## Sirshagg

I have absolutely no doubt that Tivo will continue to honor lifetime boxes. In fact i think Tivo has gone way above and beyond by allowing their users to artificially extend the life of their boxes by being so open to upgrades. 

Everything i have seen over the years indicates that Tivo is a real stand-up company. :up: :up: :up:


----------



## Gregor

Sirshagg said:


> But they could probably make non-Stock (upgraded) units stop working.


And your point is? Lots of upgraded units going month-to-month as well. (I have 2)


----------



## Sirshagg

My point is that by changing the original hardware we (yes, i am including myself since i have also done this) are artificially extensing the life of a box.

This could be in two ways.
1. the hardware failed and you replaced it.
2. you upgraded the hardware (such as a drive to add more storage) and no longer need/want to purchase a new box for more space.

I'm just saying that the lifetime which was purchased was for the box as it came from the manufacturer. By doing any upgrades to it it's really not the same box any more and it could be argued (not that I think Tivo ever would) that lifetime is no longer valid since it's not the same box you purchased. 

In the end i think Tivo has been more than fair with us.


----------



## HDTiVo

Other than violating your _warranty,_ upgrading the HD isn't going to violate anything.

I say this without carefully reviewing the actual service agreement, but I doubt a hardware change of that type violates it.

Keeping boxes in service longer is good news for TiVo, and bad news for TiVo. 

Monthly boxes with extended lives bring in subscription revenues without TiVo going through the expense of selling a new box. Obviously Lifetime boxes are a bit of a drain in that respect.


----------



## Stylin

TiVoEvan74 said:


> "Hi, first post and just trying to verify something. I have two tivos. I have had them for a while. One is a series 2, the other is a humax dvd recorder. I called tonight to upgrade them to lifetime. I am currently paying $6.95 for each. (I called to cancel because we have cable DVR and they said they would lower the first $12.95 to $6.96) "
> 
> Wow! Didn't know they would do that! This is getting more and more bazaar! (spelling pun intended)


That's been going on for quite awhile, as reported in other deal forums. If you call to cancel $12.95 service, 90% chance the Rep will offer you $6.95 or free 3 months, this usually applies to accts over a year old. One user reported getting a discount on LT - they ended up paying $245.


----------



## FlyerOrl

WOW :down: :down: :down: 

Sad day when I found this out. Guess the HD DVR will come from the cable company now. I don't need another monthly bill to worry about, I'll just add it to my current cable bill.

Guess it was a waste of time to register here


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## DCIFRTHS

I find it very strange that people would rather do without than _have to deal with a monthly bill_  - especially considering that it doesn't *have* to be a monthly bill as you can pre-pay for up three years of service. That's a pretty long time...

Lifetime is going away. TiVo is not. That's a good thing for all customers of TiVo. Phasing out lifetime will help make TiVo more profitable, and help ensure that TiVo is around for a long time.

*TiVo is in business to make money. They are not a non-profit organization.*


----------



## HDTiVo

DCIFRTHS said:


> I find it very strange that people would rather do without than _have to deal with a monthly bill_  - especially considering that it doesn't *have* to be a monthly bill as you can pre-pay for up three years of service. That's a pretty long time...
> 
> Lifetime is going away. TiVo is not. That's a good thing for all customers of TiVo. Phasing out lifetime will help make TiVo more profitable, and help ensure that TiVo is around for a long time.


Nonsense. There are alot of things at TiVo that need phasing out. Lifetime was not one of them.


----------



## HDTiVo

Has there been any update on what will happen in the case of a broken Tivo in the middle of its contract commitment?

Will TiVo offer extended warranty? How much?
Will TiVo offer box swap for refurb unit? How much?

What are the current rules/options?


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## Adam1115

Can I buy a TiVo today and still activate lifetime?


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## HDTiVo

Adam1115 said:


> Can I buy a TiVo today and still activate lifetime?


Unless the rules changed again today, no. Unless that TiVo is a Humax.


----------



## dstoffa

Adam1115 said:


> Can I buy a TiVo today and still activate lifetime?


IIRC, You MUST buy today and activate by 8pm Pacific tonight. There are exceptions, but you must act fast.


----------



## Adam1115

dstoffa said:


> IIRC, You MUST buy today and activate by 8pm Pacific tonight. There are exceptions, but you must act fast.


Can I buy it now and activate? In other words can it be activated without it being powered on or hooked to a TV?


----------



## tazzftw

Yep. You just need the service number, which I believe is outside the box. Although it's the last day on the website, you can call after that date through a service rep.


----------



## timckelley

Yes, I think if you buy today and activate next week, you're okay by telephone. But for nonHumaxes that were already activated monthly in the past, after tonight at 8PM, I think you're SOL, telephone or online.

T-minus 11 hours and 23 minutes until the boat sails, never to return!


----------



## cwerdna

Adam1115 said:


> Can I buy it now and activate? In other words can it be activated without it being powered on or hooked to a TV?


Yes, you can activate via Tivo's web site w/even hooking it up.

Better hurry since that option will be removed at 8 pm Pacific time toniight!


----------



## dirk1843

Tell me about commitments................

Is churn really that bad in monthly service providers (cable, phone, dbs, and now TiVo) that contracts are required to keep them afloat?? I mean first comes the 1 year contract, then 2...what is next a lifetime contract??

Or is it better for the books?? Does it look better to say "we have XXX number of subs, and they are here for at least a year, therefore we can guarantee we will have XXX amount of income in this period."??

Or are the products that heavily subsidized?? 

FWIW..........I loathe contracts, D* may loose me as a customer unless they can give me a reason to commit, my next cell phone will be bought without a contract, and DSL is still not an option for me as they require 1 year commitment. As a HR10-250 owner, I was looking forward to S3, but the contract idea really hurts me in my little heart.


----------



## cwerdna

timckelley said:


> Yes, I think if you buy today and active next week, you're okay by telephone.


It would be so sure about it that. From http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723 as of right now "

"To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR *prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call* and activate lifetime service on the box. This is provided there is no conflict with any other terms of your purchase (such as the requirement to activate service by 3/31 for the current 80 hour offer on tivo.com). Activating Product Lifetime Service will not be available online; you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime service. *Boxes purchased on or after 3/16/06 will not be eligible to activate Product Lifetime service.*"

I'm not sure how they'll grant the exception, but if they require a receipt to be faxed or sent in and they follow the rule exactly to the letter, you might have issues if buy today, 3/16 and try getting lifetime over the phone after 8 pm tonight. Better to activate online TODAY before they cut it off.


----------



## cwerdna

dirk1843 said:


> Tell me about commitments................
> 
> Is churn really that bad in monthly service providers (cable, phone, dbs, and now TiVo) that contracts are required to keep them afloat?? I mean first comes the 1 year contract, then 2...what is next a lifetime contract??
> ...
> 
> Or are the products that heavily subsidized??
> 
> FWIW..........I loathe contracts, D* may loose me as a customer unless they can give me a reason to commit, my next cell phone will be bought without a contract, and DSL is still not an option for me as they require 1 year commitment. As a HR10-250 owner, I was looking forward to S3, but the contract idea really hurts me in my little heart.


It's because subscriber acquisition costs are high (at least for DirecTV) although I haven't checked on cell phone providers. Yes, DirecTV must be heavily subsidizing and when you buy your cell phone it's subsidized too.

Per http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001157523-06-001263&Type=HTML DirecTV's subscriber average subscriber acquisition costs-per subscriber (SAC) was $639! Obviously some of that is going towards cheap PVRs, installation and the cost of the dishes.


----------



## timckelley

cwerdna said:


> It would be so sure about it that. From http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723 as of right now "
> 
> "To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR *prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call* and activate lifetime service on the box. This is provided there is no conflict with any other terms of your purchase (such as the requirement to activate service by 3/31 for the current 80 hour offer on tivo.com). Activating Product Lifetime Service will not be available online; you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime service. *Boxes purchased on or after 3/16/06 will not be eligible to activate Product Lifetime service.*"
> 
> I'm not sure how they'll grant the exception, but if they require a receipt to be faxed or sent in and they follow the rule exactly to the letter, you might have issues if buy today, 3/16 and try getting lifetime over the phone after 8 pm tonight. Better to activate online TODAY before they cut it off.


Good point. If you bought yesterday, maybe you could wait. So we've already sort of passed one deadline.


----------



## dswallow

dirk1843 said:


> Tell me about commitments................
> 
> Is churn really that bad in monthly service providers (cable, phone, dbs, and now TiVo) that contracts are required to keep them afloat?? I mean first comes the 1 year contract, then 2...what is next a lifetime contract??
> 
> Or is it better for the books?? Does it look better to say "we have XXX number of subs, and they are here for at least a year, therefore we can guarantee we will have XXX amount of income in this period."??
> 
> Or are the products that heavily subsidized??
> 
> FWIW..........I loathe contracts, D* may loose me as a customer unless they can give me a reason to commit, my next cell phone will be bought without a contract, and DSL is still not an option for me as they require 1 year commitment. As a HR10-250 owner, I was looking forward to S3, but the contract idea really hurts me in my little heart.


There's nothing terribly wrong with commitments being required; what you need to review are the penalties for canceling early. If the penalty is less than the value you're receiving up front for accepting the commitment, then it's probably a decent offer, especially if the penalty is prorated for the remaining period. If the penalty is higher than what you're saving up front, it's a bad deal.


----------



## njbuck

I would have never known about the new pricing if I didn't read the Tivo Community Forums.
Why didn't Tivo send me a message (on my box) or a letter informing me of the pricing changes?

I would have been pretty mad if I found out the Lifetime was no longer an option.
(I upgraded my Series 2 a few days ago.)

What else is Tivo not telling me. 

3 Thumbs down to Tivo for not informing me of the pricing changes.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

HDTiVo said:


> Nonsense. There are alot of things at TiVo that need phasing out. Lifetime was not one of them.


For example?


----------



## timckelley

Maybe if they told us all, they'd lose money due to the huger surge of lifetime conversions. Maybe we're lucky they gave us any notice at all.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

timckelley said:


> ... Maybe we're lucky they gave us any notice at all.


Agreed.


----------



## Adam1115

cwerdna said:


> It would be so sure about it that. From http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723 as of right now "
> 
> "To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR *prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call* and activate lifetime service on the box. This is provided there is no conflict with any other terms of your purchase (such as the requirement to activate service by 3/31 for the current 80 hour offer on tivo.com). Activating Product Lifetime Service will not be available online; you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime service. *Boxes purchased on or after 3/16/06 will not be eligible to activate Product Lifetime service.*"
> 
> I'm not sure how they'll grant the exception, but if they require a receipt to be faxed or sent in and they follow the rule exactly to the letter, you might have issues if buy today, 3/16 and try getting lifetime over the phone after 8 pm tonight. Better to activate online TODAY before they cut it off.


Well, if it weren't for these forums I wouldn't even know there was a problem. I walked into best buy who is advertising the 40 hour unit for $19.99 after rebate. I bought one, got the rebate form, and walked out. Went online, clicked activate, entered my tivo service number, clicked lifetime, put in my credit card and printed the receipt.

I really think they would look like buttholes if they called back and said "You know that $320 DVR you just bought? You have to pay a monthly fee because you missed the deadline that isn't even on our website you activated on.."

I think they will have a hard time taking it away from people if they still have the option to buy it online and take your money for it...

Show's on my account Lifetime Service... I think I'm good to go. Caught it just in time.


----------



## danieljanderson

njbuck said:


> I would have never known about the new pricing if I didn't read the Tivo Community Forums.
> Why didn't Tivo send me a message (on my box) or a letter informing me of the pricing changes?
> 
> I would have been pretty mad if I found out the Lifetime was no longer an option.
> (I upgraded my Series 2 a few days ago.)
> 
> What else is Tivo not telling me.
> 
> 3 Thumbs down to Tivo for not informing me of the pricing changes.


Why were you waiting?


----------



## timckelley

Well, I'd think anybody who bought a box starting tommorrow would know there's no lifetime because I assume TiVo's website will reflect this starting tommorrow.

But yes, since their website today has lifetime as an option, if somebody bought a box today and waited until tommorrow to activate it, they'd have a legitimate gripe if TiVo wouldn't let them have lifetime.


danieljanderson said:


> Why were you waiting?


In my case, I didn't feel comfortable two months ago, when I subscribed my second box, to picking lifetime, because I had just repaired the box. So I picked monthly. It just didn't seem right to committing to years of use to a box I had just fixed.

But now that I hear it's now or never, this news has caused me to take another look at my TiVo, and the logic of my decision. I'm now thinking that even if it does break again, I can fix it again, and the risk seems small compared to the potential reward of many years of use with no monthly fees.


----------



## That Don Guy

HDTiVo said:


> Has there been any update on what will happen in the case of a broken Tivo in the middle of its contract commitment?


As I posted elsewhere, this is what the TiVo site ("updated 3/13/2006", although it still says you can get a lifetime service-only contract so it could change soon) says:

_"The parts portion only of your Limited Warranty for your TiVo DVR will be extended for the term of your commitment period. This provision only applies to TiVo-brand DVRs and does not apply to third party manufactured TiVo- enabled DVRs, including Humax DVD-Recorders with TiVo®."_

-- Don


----------



## HDTiVo

That Don Guy said:


> As I posted elsewhere, this is what the TiVo site ("updated 3/13/2006", although it still says you can get a lifetime service-only contract so it could change soon) says:
> 
> _"The parts portion only of your Limited Warranty for your TiVo DVR will be extended for the term of your commitment period. This provision only applies to TiVo-brand DVRs and does not apply to third party manufactured TiVo- enabled DVRs, including Humax DVD-Recorders with TiVo®."_
> 
> -- Don


Thanks, Don...I found something like that after I posted...still leaves $Labor  and there was another part about a fee ($ undefined) for box replacement or something...

edit: found it again...



from the 'Sticky' said:


> Q. What happens if my TiVo box breaks during my service commitment?
> 
> A. All TiVo boxes are subject to the TiVo DVR Limited Warranty. Please see full TiVo DVR Limited Warranty for details [http://www.tivo.com/2.6.1.3.asp]. During the term of your commitment, TiVo will extend the length of the parts warranty for the length of your term for TiVo-branded DVRs. If your box breaks, TiVo will replace it for a reasonable fee.


Clicking the "link" today brings up this:



> The page cannot be found
> The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
> ...


----------



## Blurayfan

The link had an extra character at the end use this link. http://www.tivo.com/2.6.1.3.asp


----------



## csyria

I'm probably smeeking here, but this strongly disappoints me. 

What they are doing here is reducing customer choice. If you want to buy your own box and pay as you go, you have to find one in a store somewhere. I'm also willing to bet that this will be phased out sooner or later. (This is a prediction only)

Even the cell phone companies will let you go without a contract if you pay retail for the hardware. TiVo, in my opinion, needs to appear friendly to consumers and offer as much choice as possible if they are to continue to grow.

Another point that really bothers me is that when you buy a package that has a monthly fee, at the end of your commitment you don't get anything new, but you still pay that same price. If you call, then you can switch it over to the "Service Only" rate and even get a multi-box discount. This just SMACKS in my opinion of preying on customers who do not know that when their commitment is over, they can get a lower rate.


----------



## mattack

davezatz said:


> In three years, that 80 hour Series 2 won't exist. It won't exist this time next year... at the very least they'll need to yank the analog tuner to be compliant.


I realize I'm replying to an older message in this thread.. but I can't figure out what compliance to which you're referring.

The CableCard spec requires analog tuning capability.. As far as I've heard, there hasn't been legislation passed yet to close the "analog hole", but that only refers to analog outputs anyhow.


----------



## timckelley

Say, I got the latest edition of TiVo new today in my email (the newsletter TiVo Corp sends to the subscribers). This is the March edition #82. As far as I can tell, nowhere in the newsletter does it mention the doing away with lifetime. I read it, and double-checked by searching for the word 'life' in the article, and this development is not mentioned.


----------



## FlyerOrl

DCIFRTHS said:


> I find it very strange that people would rather do without than _have to deal with a monthly bill_  - especially considering that it doesn't *have* to be a monthly bill as you can pre-pay for up three years of service. That's a pretty long time...
> 
> *TiVo is in business to make money. They are not a non-profit organization.*


Monthly once every 3 years very little difference other than you save a bit on the 3 year option because they have 1 bill process not 36 in monthly payments.

TiVo also provides a Service not a product. The product is provided by the cable companies and Sattelite providers. If TiVo wants to increase profits, they should be looking at the product providers like they did with Comcast. The Product providers provide services that TiVo does not and likely will not provide. I can go to the provider and get essentially the same thing (For the general public) without having to deal with another Co. Easiest path. With the Lifetime it is a 1 and done deal. Major difference.


----------



## wonka12

Goodbye Tivo! I was really interested in the Series 3 but no way in hell am I paying you a monthly fee forever. I'll be selling both my series 1's with lifetime and moving on to a different direction.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

FlyerOrl said:


> Monthly once every 3 years very little difference other than you save a bit on the 3 year option because they have 1 bill process not 36 in monthly payments.


I don't understand what you are saying above. Can you restate it?



FlyerOrl said:


> TiVo also provides a Service not a product. The product is provided by the cable companies and Sattelite providers. If TiVo wants to increase profits, they should be looking at the product providers like they did with Comcast. The Product providers provide services that TiVo does not and likely will not provide. I can go to the provider and get essentially the same thing (For the general public) without having to deal with another Co. Easiest path. With the Lifetime it is a 1 and done deal. Major difference.


TiVo's hardware is not a product? I disagree. At this point in time, TiVo provides both a physical product and a service.

If you feel that you can get the "same thing" through the cable company, then that is what you should do. After consumers voice their opinions, and still don't get the results they are looking for, then they should vote with your dollar$. If killing lifetime service hurts TiVo's bottom line, as most of the posts in this thread predict, you can be sure that it will return.


----------



## lessd

csyria said:


> I'm probably smeeking here, but this strongly disappoints me.
> 
> What they are doing here is reducing customer choice. If you want to buy your own box and pay as you go, you have to find one in a store somewhere. I'm also willing to bet that this will be phased out sooner or later. (This is a prediction only)
> 
> Even the cell phone companies will let you go without a contract if you pay retail for the hardware. TiVo, in my opinion, needs to appear friendly to consumers and offer as much choice as possible if they are to continue to grow.
> 
> Another point that really bothers me is that when you buy a package that has a monthly fee, at the end of your commitment you don't get anything new, but you still pay that same price. If you call, then you can switch it over to the "Service Only" rate and even get a multi-box discount. This just SMACKS in my opinion of preying on customers who do not know that when their commitment is over, they can get a lower rate.


They (TiVo) said that people who paid beyond their service contract would get free parts if the TiVo went bad, the 1 year parts only part of the warranty gets extended for contract people..they (TiVo) don't make this very easy to find but its in the pricing post by TiVo Ops Mgr.


----------



## mchips

DCIFRTHS said:


> If killing lifetime service hurts TiVo's bottom line, as most of the posts in this thread predict, you can be sure that it will return.


 Not necessarily... it was a model that was not producing a profit for TiVo...

Bottom line, no profit, no TiVo...

Losing a few Lifetimers more than likely is not going to hurt TiVo's bottom line... A Lifetime sub of $250 or $300 only stretches so far before it just becomes a liability to continue to provide service to... and those of us not on Lifetime end up having to make up for that in the service fee we pay... losing a few Lifetimers actually has the potential to even help TiVo to be able to lower the monthly fee as we go forward... I'm sure TiVo values all of its customers, but those on Lifetime, especially those who purchased it more than two years ago, are essentially paying TiVo $0.00 per month for service that costs TiVo more than $0.00 per month.

I've tried my cable company's DVR, in two different states, and it is no substitute for a TiVo... I imagine many people may leave only to return... it's true what they say; absence makes the heart grow fonder... and some people may have to experience much of what they take for granted with TiVo not being there in the cable company's DVR before they can return and appreciate what we have in TiVo...

People are not going to get a Lifetime option from their cable company... so if they're leaving TiVo because of a no Lifetime option, then maybe they should just avoid the cable company for the same reason...

It's like refusing to eat at Kentucky Fried Chicken because they don't have hamburgers on their menu and then going to Taco Bell instead. 

I'd rather see Lifetime go, than to see my TiVo go...

I've just gotten five commitments from friends of mine to buy at least one TiVo under the new pricing options, and I will be working on more at a party this weekend.

For each one they may lose as a result of the no Lifetime option, they will probably be able to replace with a new subscriber or two, paying more than the $0.00 per month.

Plus, it isn't necessarily that most posts in this thread are predicting that it will hurt TiVo, so much as it is the same people saying the same thing over and over. As customer service surveys have shown, when people are upset over something, they are much more vocal than those who are pleased... with some much, much, more vocal than others... 

And why do you think some people are SO upset over this... because they really don't want to leave TiVo; they know how great TiVo is, even when they complain about it... I will often read someone ranting about an issue, only to see them say, "don't get me wrong, I love TiVo just as much as anyone."


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Larry, 

Okay. I exaggerated when I said most posts in this thread are predicting that it will hurt TiVo...but I have seen some posts that have said this will be the end of TiVo (I don't agree). 

As far as the rest of your post, I agree with everything you said, and I think that I was saying the same thing albeit in fewer words... did I misstate my opinion


----------



## DCIFRTHS

mchips said:


> .... And why do you think some people are SO upset over this... because they really don't want to leave TiVo; they know how great TiVo is, even when they complain about it... I will often read someone ranting about an issue, only to say, "don't get me wrong, I love TiVo just as much as anyone."


Addressing your edit: I have been following this thread from the begining, and there are MANY posts that state that they are very angry over this.

Again, "we", as in "you" and "I", agree. I'm not sure what you think I was trying to say.


----------



## mchips

Dcifrths,

I know you... I know you love TiVo...  

I was just addressing a lot of issues in a single post, just beginning with a single comment that you made.

I didn't for one minute think you were dissing TiVo...

And when I said "you" in that last statement, I'm not really saying YOU... it was just a rhetorical question, not directed at you specifically...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Ahhh! Cool


----------



## FlyerOrl

DCIFRTHS said:


> I don't understand what you are saying above. Can you restate it?
> 
> TiVo's hardware is not a product? I disagree. At this point in time, TiVo provides both a physical product and a service.
> 
> If you feel that you can get the "same thing" through the cable company, then that is what you should do. After consumers voice their opinions, and still don't get the results they are looking for, then they should vote with your dollar$. If killing lifetime service hurts TiVo's bottom line, as most of the posts in this thread predict, you can be sure that it will return.


a payment is a payment no matter how you cut it be it 1 month or 3 years. A lifetime membership is a one and done thing. TiVo's "Hardware" can be picked up in any store that sells hard drives. It is the technology and the service that they provide that is value added.

Bottom line is that people will come to TiVo less and less because they can get the same service from the Cable provider. An Lifetime "membership" (basically you own the box) was a differentiation that is no longer available. People can get essentially the same product from the cable companies and quite often cheaper when you look at it as a rental instead of ownership.

As far as voicing my opinion, already did. I have already ordered my HD recorder from the cable company and I installed today. No longer waiting for S3. 3 of my friends who were waiting for the HD recorder did the same thing as they were not TiVo customers in the first place and the price point campared to the cable company wasn't worth A) the wait B) the cost savings C) and the feature loss that Tivo Provided


----------



## mchips

FlyerOrl said:


> Bottom line is that people will come to TiVo less and less because they can get the same service from the Cable provider. An Lifetime "membership" (basically you own the box) was a differentiation that is no longer available. People can get essentially the same product from the cable companies and quite often cheaper when you look at it as a rental instead of ownership.


I wholeheartedly disagree...

The DVRs that cable companies provide are nowhere near the level of service that a TiVo provides...

I've made this comparison before, but I'll make it again. Trying to compare a TiVo to a cable company's DVR is like trying to compare a steak to a hambuger...

Btw, the Lifetime option was not for the "box", it was for the service... People still "own the box" with or without Lifetime... always have... and that hasn't changed...

You better hope your friends don't ever get a TiVo, or have other friends that do, or they may lose trust in your judgment after turning them away from a TiVo, if given the opportunity to see how much better a TiVo is...


----------



## jfh3

FlyerOrl said:


> Bottom line is that people will come to TiVo less and less because they can get the same service from the Cable provider. An Lifetime "membership" (basically you own the box) was a differentiation that is no longer available. People can get essentially the same product from the cable companies and quite often cheaper when you look at it as a rental instead of ownership.


Less and less? Don't think so. For most cable subs (analog), getting a new Tivo that they own will STILL be less than the cost to get a "free" cable DVR (which is $10-$15 + tax + whatever the delta tier cost is) and never be able to own or upgrade the box. For now, the cable companies may have the hardware advantage, but they certainly don't have a long-term price advantage.


----------



## cfand3boyz

The thing that ticks me off is that why can't they offer mulitiple discounts if you do get one of their bundled deals? All they have to do is take the discount off the existing service and then allow you to add the bundle at full price. I was going to get a unit for my upstairs but now I do think so if I have to pay full price for the service of both units. I can understand paying full price for that bundle but I don't see why they can't reduce the exiting service.


----------



## HDTiVo

Saying things to the effect of 'the new pricing model will be the death of TiVo' is not accurate. Posts from people saying they will now pass on TiVo are personal. Certainly many people will now pass on TiVo; many others will take TiVo because of the new pricing model. What the balance will be given the particular details of the new model we will begin to find out over the next 6 months.

In the big picture, the New vs Old pricing model debate is pointless for two reasons. First, TiVo's subscription business has been very profitable; the new pricing will make future subscriptions even more profitable. Second, the new model is now a fact of life.

TiVo's problem has not been profitability from its subscription business. TiVo has lost money from a terribly inefficient marketing operation. Far to much money has been spent to acquire far to few subscribers. Despite this, TiVo was not far from a point where subscription profits could start to overcome marketing losses, even under the old pricing.

The new pricing model was designed in an attempt to address the inefficiencies of past marketing. The hope is that significantly more subscribers can be acquired per total SAC dollar spent. The success of the plan does not depend primarily on whether SAC/unit increases or decreases. Rather it depends more on whether the total SAC spending is adjusted to the number of units sold sufficiently to let the profits from the subscription business exceed the losses from marketing. TiVo will be alright if the number of Sub adds falls substantially, provided they anticipate it and plan total SAC spending accordingly.

Whether the new pricing will do the job is an open question. There are flaws in the way it has been designed which leave in doubt its ultimate effectiveness. TiVo's cash position is more than sufficient to allow it to experiment during these upcoming slower sales months with the new pricing, and make adjustments according to results. 

It will be TiVo's accuracy of adjustments in total SAC and its flexibility in pricing according to market acceptance that will determine the ultimate outcome.


----------



## interactiveTV

jfh3 said:


> Less and less? Don't think so. For most cable subs (analog), getting a new Tivo that they own will STILL be less than the cost to get a "free" cable DVR (which is $10-$15 + tax + whatever the delta tier cost is) and never be able to own or upgrade the box. For now, the cable companies may have the hardware advantage, but they certainly don't have a long-term price advantage.


 If all one wants is the DVR, then your analysis is correct, but upgrading from analog to digital -- for the extra money -- allows more than merely the cable DVR (and/or HD). If you value the extras at $0, then the extra price paid certainly swings the cost analysis in Tivo's favor. If you want the extra channels (7 HBOs instead of 1, etc), if you want the VOD, if you want HD, then it changes the equation.

Yes, it costs more (digital over analog) but it doesn't cost more for nothing. A subscriber gets something. Again, value that as you wish.

Of course, the 46% of Comcast subs with digital are an important universe for Tivo.

http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=118591&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=811814&highlight=

_ITV


----------



## TiVoStephen

cfand3boyz said:


> The thing that ticks me off is that why can't they offer mulitiple discounts if you do get one of their bundled deals? All they have to do is take the discount off the existing service and then allow you to add the bundle at full price. I was going to get a unit for my upstairs but now I do think so if I have to pay full price for the service of both units. I can understand paying full price for that bundle but I don't see why they can't reduce the exiting service.


Hi cfand3boyz -- please read the Summary thread at the top of the forum. If you check there and look in the Multi-Service Discount section, you'll find we do exact as you say. 

Suppose you currently have a unit subscribed at $12.95 per month. If you purchase any of the new bundles (or even the new service-only prepay) then your existing unit automatically drops to $6.95 per month.

Best regards,
Stephen


----------



## cfand3boyz

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Hi cfand3boyz -- please read the Summary thread at the top of the forum. If you check there and look in the Multi-Service Discount section, you'll find we do exact as you say.
> 
> Suppose you currently have a unit subscribed at $12.95 per month. If you purchase any of the new bundles (or even the new service-only prepay) then your existing unit automatically drops to $6.95 per month.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


AWESOME!!!!!! Thank you so much! I'm going to order one once I get my little one off to school. Great deal!


----------



## Adam1115

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Hi cfand3boyz -- please read the Summary thread at the top of the forum. If you check there and look in the Multi-Service Discount section, you'll find we do exact as you say.
> 
> Suppose you currently have a unit subscribed at $12.95 per month. If you purchase any of the new bundles (or even the new service-only prepay) then your existing unit automatically drops to $6.95 per month.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


What about people who have a lifetime TiVo now and want a second tivo.. no more $6.95 per month?


----------



## Blurayfan

Adam1115 said:


> What about people who have a lifetime TiVo now and want a second tivo.. no more $6.95 per month?


Yes, $6.95 is available for additional units as long as these units were purchased at retail and not part of a bundle package.


----------



## DancnDude

Adam1115 said:


> What about people who have a lifetime TiVo now and want a second tivo.. no more $6.95 per month?


Once your contract is up, you can switch it to $6.95. The big thing is that when you're in a contract, you won't get a discount for that box. But the contracted boxes do cause other non-contract boxes to get the discount.


----------



## Y-ASK

I understand why they are getting rid of Life Time. Just got in under the gun for a TX-RS20 that I've been using with Tivo Basic. I understand the desire to offer other purchase type options. But to not automatically drop the monthly fee from the contracted amount to the standard $12.95 without a phone call is plain BS. That's just taking advantage of someone who's too busy to deal with remembering crap like this. How can anyone support such a deceptive concept other than the company in line to make the profits from the dumbass who forgot to make the call. It doesn't take much coding to automate the process but would cost Tivo some extra (not earned) money, wouldn't it? It's what I would call stealing and it's wrong.

Y-ASK


----------



## Shawn95GT

I think the deal is the higher rate keeps you contract free at the end of your term.

You have the option to go down to $12.95/mo if you agree to another year.


----------



## Y-ASK

Shawn95GT said:


> I think the deal is the higher rate keeps you contract free at the end of your term.
> 
> You have the option to go down to $12.95/mo if you agree to another year.


That's even more bogus but thanks for pointing that out. I had not considered the need for another contract.

Y-ASK


----------



## dgh

Y-ASK said:


> That's just taking advantage of someone who's too busy to deal with remembering crap like this. How can anyone support such a deceptive concept other than the company in line to make the profits from the dumbass who forgot to make the call. It doesn't take much coding to automate the process but would cost Tivo some extra (not earned) money, wouldn't it? It's what I would call stealing and it's wrong.


I don't see what's deceptive about it. They used to have the "I want to pay less" (lifetime) and "I want to pay more" plans. Now that have the "I want to pay more" and the I want to pay still more especially if I'm not good a remembering dates 1, 2, or 3 years in advance" plans. It looks like a fully transparent price hike to me. Rebates, like they've been running for years, work on the same principle. They're not going to call you and bug you to send it in. If you're one of the 70% who forget/don't bother, you can pay more.


----------



## mchips

You want to talk deception? Okay... 

I just called my cable company to get their latest pricing on their DVRs...

They're now telling customers "it has TiVo features." Which I found rather misleading, and told the customer service rep that... telling her it's nowhere near the level of a TiVo, and people are going to think they're getting a TiVo instead.

She never said DVR, she didn't even say it was like or similar to a TiVo, but explicitly said "a box with TiVo features". Even after I said DVR first, and then several times in asking my questions about their "DVR" prices. She then seemed to make it a point not to call it a DVR, but to call it a box with TiVo features instead. After I pointed out how I thought that was misleading, she then said rather rudely, "well, is there anything I can actually help you with?"

We then discussed the prices for digital cable with and without a DVR.

Not counting the cost for digital cable, but looking only at the cost difference between a standard digital box from my cable company to one with DVR features, I would only save $1.80 per month if I replaced all four of my TiVo's with their DVRs, and would then be forced to pay for digital cable on all four boxes, even if I only needed it on one or two.

$1.80 amounts to only 45 cents for each box per month.

I'm definitely willing to pay 45 cents for all that TiVo provides that my cable company's DVR doesn't. And I'm only factoring in the difference between their DVR box and their non-DVR digital box. If I look at what I'm actually paying for their DVR box, then I'm paying much more (more than $30 per month more instead of saving $1.80); again, not counting the cost of the digital service on top of that and then having to pay that for each box, even if I only need or watch enough digital cable for one or two boxes.

I then asked if they offered a Lifetime subscription option for the DVR box/service... she replied with much attitude, "What!?! Uh, no... we don't.'

<edit>
And this doesn't even take into account the fact that I've been able to upgrade all four of my TiVo boxes, that I wouldn't be able to do with a cable company's DVR, since I actually own my TiVo's, and therefore I am able to get much more recording capacity from my TiVo's than I would be able to with my cable company's DVR...

And then how much better, and more accurately, TiVo does at finding, and recording my shows, then following them automatically when/if they move days or times, or are extended, like Lost and other programs like to do... then there's the Wish Lists, and MRV/TTG, being able to transfer shows between my TiVo's, and even copy shows to my PC, and downloaded shows from my PC to my TiVo's... then there's TCO, and the ability to schedule a recording through the Internet; I don't have to be home to schedule a last minute recording on my TiVo... and this is to only name a few...

Oh, and then there's now that ability to be able to undelete a recently deleted recording with their latest update... TiVo has continuously been updating and improving their service...


----------



## Adam1115

My cable company said:

"We don't have a DVR available, but go buy a TiVo, it works great on our system!! "

Funny...


----------



## timckelley

mchips said:


> I then asked if they offered a Lifetime subscription option for the DVR box/service... she replied with much attitude, "What!?! Uh, no... we don't.'


... and then you replied: "Your competition does. Sorry."


----------



## timckelley

I have Time Warner analog cable. I could use their DVR if I wanted to, but I'd have to upgrade to digital cable which means higher monthly fees. True, their DVRs have no up front cost, and my two TiVos boxes did have an upfront cost. But I've had one TiVo for 3 years, and the other for 2 years, so the amortized cost to me per month is not that much.

Well, so far it's:

Box 1: $250 + $299 lifetime = $549 / 3 years = $15.25 per month. Well that sounds like a lot, but the cost keeps going down because I intend to keep using this box for years longer than I have so far, and there are no monthly fees. Also, it's not fair to compare because at the time I bought it, Time Warner had no DVR. By the time they came out with a DVR, TiVo had dropped in price, and the box would have been nowhere near $250. Today it's $29 at CompUSA.

Box 2: $200 + $299 lifetime / 2 years = $20.79 per month.

Okay, it sounds like I'm paying a lot per month when you amortize, but what if my boxes last me another 5 years? Then it'll be

$200+250+299+299 = $1048 / 7.5 years = $11.64 per month. I'm probably saving that much by going analog cable vs digital cable, plus if I had 2 TW DVRs in the house, I don't know what they'd charge me for that. It's quite possible I'm saving money.

Plus I own my TiVos and can sell them if I like.


----------



## TiVoEvan74

Your analysis is one of the clearest I've seen on the costs of lifetime.

It was calculations like those that showed me that I actually lost more money on a Series 2 with lifetime when I sold it than when I sold a Series 2 Toshiba with Basic only!

We upgraded to TiVos with the DVD burners, a real treat, and now have lifetime on both. And yes, just as you explain, the longer you hang on them, the better the monthly cost is. And your figures/data show exactly how to calculate the real average monthly cost. (We often conveniently forget how much we paid for the boxes to begin with!)

We've also figure out that we're saving lots of $$ by not having real or regular cable service--that's now over $50 in our area per month! With TiVo, and the 5 regular channels, we have had no need for the full cable package... there's lot of good stuff on.. and we never get to watch most of it anyway! So, there's a monthly savings we can pretend we're getting, too!


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> I have Time Warner analog cable.
> ....
> $200+250+299+299 = $1048 / 7.5 years = $11.64 per month. I'm probably saving that much by going analog cable vs digital cable, plus if I had 2 TW DVRs in the house, I don't know what they'd charge me for that. It's quite possible I'm saving money.
> 
> Plus I own my TiVos and can sell them if I like.


I had Cablevision analog cable. Then they came and upgraded my entire town to digital w/HD for *no extra charge * - not even installation. That's right, I got HD STBs, a few digital channels, a bunch (13) of HD channels (incl. ESPNHD, MSGHD, YESHD...), PPV, VOD (digital & HD), games, and god knows what else; I'm afraid to find out...

Now I can't even get a TiVo for the deal you got, Tim. What do the people I like to talk up TiVo to do going forward?


----------



## timckelley

HDTiVo said:


> Now I can't even get a TiVo for the deal you got, Tim. What do the people I like to talk up TiVo to do going forward?


Well, the cost per TiVo is going to be more efficient if you get two, than one, because of MFD. Especially now that lifetime is gone. But I bet that most people who don't own TiVo won't even consider owning two until they've owned one for awhile. So you're right.... it could be a task to convince somebody to buy that first TiVo.


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> Well, the cost per TiVo is going to be more efficient if you get two, than one, because of MFD. Especially now that lifetime is gone. But I bet that most people who don't own TiVo won't even consider owning two until they've owned one for awhile. So you're right.... it could be a task to convince somebody to buy that first TiVo.


I'd run the numbers on $469 for 3 years before I said that.


----------



## timckelley

HDTiVo said:


> I'd run the numbers on $469 for 3 years before I said that.


Is that the bundled price for a box and service? True, it's a better deal than I got, assuming I only keep my box for 3 years, and that I don't get any money back when I sell it. I bet I'm going to keep my box a lot longer though.


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> Is that the bundled price for a box and service? True, it's a better deal than I got, assuming I only keep my box for 3 years, and that I don't get any money back when I sell it. I bet I'm going to keep my box a lot longer though.


Right.

The point is your total cost of ownership over a longer period will far exceed the prices you paid in the past.

I gave a bad example, though, because the second TiVo should be had $224 + $6.95/mo after month 12. That's $9.29/mo over 5 years, with $224 being upfront.

And the point about what cable is doing in major areas on HD/digital pricing is the entire TiVo argument about saving by staying analog is evaporating.


----------



## mchips

TiVoEvan74 said:


> (We often conveniently forget how much we paid for the boxes to begin with!)


 Actually, I haven't... 

I have stated at least a couple of times how what cost me almost $800 the first month over three years ago to get two TiVo's home, without Lifetime (and believe me, I thought it was well worth it then), someone can now do for less than $40 upfront the first month.

Which actually just goes to prove how the cost has come down in the past three years alone... and if someone is able to prepay for three years, on their bundled package, they can get a box for only $2.80...

To address another issue brought up by someone else:

The Lifetime was nice while it lasted, and will continue to last for many boxes for years to come, as long as TiVo is in business...

People can look at it this way... $200/$250 for a box + $300 for Lifetime = $500/$550...

With the three year bundled package which includes the box and service for three years it's less than $500... it won't really be an issue for them until three years from now when they have to begin paying for the service again...

The Lifetime option would have meant no more service fees after that... if TiVo isn't worth it to them then, they can cancel... but I doubt most will...

Again, no one is getting a Lifetime option from the cable company's DVR either...


----------



## timckelley

HDTiVo said:


> And the point about what cable is doing in major areas on HD/digital pricing is the entire TiVo argument about saving by staying analog is evaporating.


 I think I understand what you said. I hope I can keep my analog as long as possible. BTW, the reason my 2nd box (bought 2 years ago) cost $200 is because it was upgraded to 214 hours before I bought it. Of course, two months ago, one of the drives broke and I replaced it for free because I had another driving hanging around, but not it's down to 115 hours. Oh well.

If they force me to go digital, I guess my TiVos will still handle it. At that point, I'll have to adjust my cost comparison equations to look at the price of digital without 2 TW DVRs vs digital with 2 TW DVR. Hopefully that day is a ways away.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

HDTiVo said:


> I had Cablevision analog cable. Then they came and upgraded my entire town to digital w/HD for *no extra charge * - not even installation. That's right, I got HD STBs, a few digital channels, a bunch (13) of HD channels (incl. ESPNHD, MSGHD, YESHD...), PPV, VOD (digital & HD), games, and god knows what else; I'm afraid to find out...
> 
> Now I can't even get a TiVo for the deal you got, Tim. What do the people I like to talk up TiVo to do going forward?


How did you get *free installation* from Cablevision? Even though all they do is show up, hook up the box, and activate it, I couldn't get them to waive the charge. I got the HD STB when it was first released in my area and then the HD DVR as soon as that was available.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

mchips said:


> You want to talk deception? Okay...
> 
> I just called my cable company to get their latest pricing on their DVRs... ....


What company provides cable to you?


----------



## HDTiVo

DCIFRTHS said:


> How did you get *free installation* from Cablevision? Even though all they do is show up, hook up the box, and activate it, I couldn't get them to waive the charge. I got the HD STB when it was first released in my area and then the HD DVR as soon as that was available.


They called over and over and "begged" us to take it. Seriously.

I thought there was a catch - a temporary deal and I'd lose my analog rate forever - or something.

And I know folks in other major metro areas getting similar offers from other cable cos, like Comcast.


----------



## MoneyMINTR

TivoOpsMgr,


I thought it was until 3/18 to activate the lifetime subs. I called to activate today and I'm out of luck. Also, I had purchased my S2 on 3/10. Customer service says I'm out of luck. Is this true?

RE: Tivo case #4282200


Thanks,
MM


----------



## slim69

Same here. I just called now and they said there was no way to get lifetime. I read them the post about units purchased before 3/16 being able to get lifetime until 4/15, and they said that inforamtion was wrong. What's the deal?


----------



## Digs

MoneyMINTR said:


> TivoOpsMgr,
> 
> I thought it was until 3/18 to activate the lifetime subs. I called to activate today and I'm out of luck. Also, I had purchased my S2 on 3/10. Customer service says I'm out of luck. Is this true?
> 
> RE: Tivo case #4282200
> 
> Thanks,
> MM


You should have been escalated to a supervisor. My experience this evening: After the front line rep told me she couldn't activiate me with product lifetime, she gave me a case # and put me on hold (another 5-10 mins) until a supervisor picked up. I spoke with Frank (who was GREAT). I told him I purchased a new S2 via Tivo-com on 3/12 (the last day an upgrade to product L/T was available, evidently). I also told him I have printed out the $150 promotional pop up web page that specifically said the 12 month service commitment ($155.40) could be applied towards a service upgrade to product lifetime. He said no problem, but it would have to be done via a special "exception" process. Basically, (a) he activated me on monthly tonight (no charge to my card), then he made notes in my account so that (b) the billing folks can go back within the next few days to upgrade my subscription to lifetime and bill my card for the difference (i.e. I'll know it's done when I see a $143.40 charge to my card later this week.). WHEW. Just got in under the wire on this one.


----------



## FlyerOrl

mchips said:


> You better hope your friends don't ever get a TiVo, or have other friends that do, or they may lose trust in your judgment after turning them away from a TiVo, if given the opportunity to see how much better a TiVo is...


They ahve and the opportunity cost simply isn't there anymore. They were wavering. When I told them the lifetime guarantee was gone the went on there own. The difference simply isn't that great anymore and unlike Tivo, they don't pay for the box


----------



## FlyerOrl

mchips said:


> I've made this comparison before, but I'll make it again. Trying to compare a TiVo to a cable company's DVR is like trying to compare a steak to a hambuger...


What gets sold more. Hamburger or steak? Mircrosoft Apple comparison to. Where is the apple today. Gone.

SOrry, TiVo has to differntiate itself and it has to do so with cost as well. Moving from the lifetime service they are moving towrds the company's that have the advantage


----------



## mchips

FlyerOrl said:


> What gets sold more. Hamburger or steak? Mircrosoft Apple comparison to. Where is the apple today. Gone.


 But the steak is not gone, and still remains quite popular among meat eaters... 

The hamburger is just a cheap alternative, and not nearly as satisfying...


----------



## ThreeSoFar

mchips said:


> But the steak is not gone, and still remains quite popular among meat eaters...
> 
> The hamburger is just a cheap alternative, and not nearly as satisfying...


Mr. Chips with the smackdown! Nicely done.

I see the points on all sides.

Dropping lifetime is the first move TiVo has made in a long while that I can say gives me hope. Though it's quite risky--potentially pissing off a bunch of long term valued customers. But I think they needed to take a risk.


----------



## tiellv

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Tom Rogers
> I know some subscribers have responded very warmly to the Product Lifetime option in the past -- they should, it's way too good a deal.


We've been spoiled. We've been given something very extra special for the last few years and now they've taken it away and we're *







* like spoiled children


----------



## HDTiVo

Best Buy is still quoting Lifetime @$299 - in bold - for the 80hr TiVo.


----------



## danieljanderson

mchips said:


> But the steak is not gone, and still remains quite popular among meat eaters...
> 
> The hamburger is just a cheap alternative, and not nearly as satisfying...


Do you buy Coke or Pepsi? Or do you buy RC cola or the stuff that Walmart sells?

TiVo is Coke and Pepsi. They will do just fine.

--Meant to Quote FlyerOrl, but I think you all get my meaning.


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## TiVoEvan74

"way too good a deal"????  

Well, if someone paid $200-300 for their box and $300 for lifetime, they're out $500-600. That's a lot of money in my book. 

Let's also figure the monthly cost. Let's say they've had Tivo for the past 3 years. For 36 months, that's $13.89 to $16.67/month. That's a chunk of change actually.

And that's even more per month than if they had recently gotten their box for near free and are paying $12.95/month!

Sure, the monthly cost will go done with more years, but a TiVo devotee is likely to have sold his or her box and upgraded before then.

Nope, I don't buy the idea that we've spoiled, especially not if a TiVo box or not quite so good DVR from a satellite company was/is costing only $5/month.

The "too good a deal" may actually be anyone paying MSD at $6.95 on a recently bought near free box. But even then $7.51/month (in certain taxing states) seems a lot for what is essentially a scheduling service and interface (albeit an excellent one), especially when PC/Mac software/tuner solutions are coming in for a much smaller fixed initial layout and no monthly recurring costs! El Gato TV, e.g.


----------



## Rottluver

I have the best of both worlds........3 Tivo boxes, DirecTV, lifetime on them all** and no monthly fees of any kind other then my Sat bill itself. And apparently (according to other portions of this Forum) DTV's lifetime is not going away.

Not meant to sound like I am going "neener neener" but I *AM* spoiled by having had Tivo since 2001 and I would be pissed if I knew the S3 was coming and I could not get or keep my lifetime status. 

** And I only paid ONE lifetime fee when I got my first Tivo box........it apparently is good for them all.


----------



## brianric

I had a Showstopper ($600), now have Replay 4504, Replay 5040, and a Tivo Series 2. Paid about $350 for the Replays and Tivo. Showstopper came with lifetime, bought lifetime for the Replays and Tivo.


----------



## PhillyGuy

TiVoEvan74 said:


> "way too good a deal"????
> 
> Well, if someone paid $200-300 for their box and $300 for lifetime, they're out $500-600. That's a lot of money in my book.
> 
> Let's also figure the monthly cost. Let's say they've had Tivo for the past 3 years. For 36 months, that's $13.89 to $16.67/month. That's a chunk of change actually.
> 
> And that's even more per month than if they had recently gotten their box for near free and are paying $12.95/month!
> 
> Sure, the monthly cost will go done with more years, but a TiVo devotee is likely to have sold his or her box and upgraded before then.
> 
> Nope, I don't buy the idea that we've spoiled, especially not if a TiVo box or not quite so good DVR from a satellite company was/is costing only $5/month.
> 
> The "too good a deal" may actually be anyone paying MSD at $6.95 on a recently bought near free box. But even then $7.51/month (in certain taxing states) seems a lot for what is essentially a scheduling service and interface (albeit an excellent one), especially when PC/Mac software/tuner solutions are coming in for a much smaller fixed initial layout and no monthly recurring costs! El Gato TV, e.g.


I agree. Lifetime service is a great deal compared to how much they are charging for monthly service. However, it is a lot of money for the function that it actually provides. I got my box for less than $50 after rebate, so I can't complain. But I would never spend several hundred dollars on the box + $300 for lifetime. I value the convenience it provides, but in my book it doesn't justify the premium it charges (at retail price), especially considering the alternatives. Maybe I'm not the type that Tivo is trying to attract...


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## tonyonlinux

Okay,
I contacted Tivo today March 18th 2006 and they specifically told me that I CAN NOT upgrade to lifetime because I didn't buy my Tivo in march? I'm a little confused. I thought the requirement was if you bought it before 3/16/06 you had until 4/15/06? I purchased my box on the 25th of December 2005 so I should be eligable should I not?



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> We'd like to clarify a few points regarding Product Lifetime going away:
> 
> (These are updated in the sticky post as well.)
> 
> Here are the details about Product Lifetime going away: Once it goes away sometime shortly after Wednesday 3/15, you will not be able to choose Product Lifetime when you activate or re-activate service via www.tivo.com/activate/ or Manage My Account.
> 
> This means that if you don't have Product Lifetime already, you won't be able to get it. New customers cannot purchase it. Existing customers cannot purchase it. Existing customers cannot convert their existing monthly contracts into Product Lifetime. It is no longer available as an option.
> 
> Are there any exceptions? Yes. We'd like to clarify a few points regarding Product Lifetime going away:
> 
> 
> To clarify for everyone -- if you purchased your non-bundled TiVo DVR prior to 3/16/06, you'll have until 4/15/06 to call and activate lifetime service on the box. This is provided there is no conflict with any other terms of your purchase (such as the requirement to activate service by 3/31 for the current 80 hour offer on tivo.com). Activating Product Lifetime Service will not be available online, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Boxes purchased on or after 3/16/06 will not be eligible to activate Product Lifetime service.
> Due to the terms of our relationship with Humax, however, new Humax DVD Recorder products not previously activated for service (that is, they have no activation history) will continue to be eligible for Product Lifetime Service activation. They are not affected by the 3/15/06 purchase cutoff or the 4/15/06 Product Lifetime activation cutoff. Again, you must call TiVo Customer Support in order to activate Product Lifetime Service. Humax DVD Recorder products which have already been activated for service have until 4/15/06 to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service. After 4/15/06, Humax DVD Recorder products with an activation history will no longer have Product Lifetime Service as an activation option.
> If you have a special situation not covered in thea bove, please call TiVo Customer Support (1-877-367-8486), explain your situation, and they will do their best to help you.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen, Pony & the TiVo Team


----------



## mchips

> Originally Posted by*TiVoOpsMgr*
> _I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Tom Rogers
> I know some subscribers have responded very warmly to the Product Lifetime option in the past -- they should, it's way too good a deal._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tiellv*
> We've been spoiled. We've been given something very extra special for the last few years and now they've taken it away and we're *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * like spoiled children
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That's exactly it...

On American Inventor this past week, this mother brought in this invention of a Tizzy tube for her children... 3 of the 4 judges scoffed at it comparing it to a "cage" for kids; whether it is or it isn't, it may still be perfect for many of the people in this forum... we can put them all in Tizzy tubes, and let them have their tizzy fits...


----------



## Jersey

I just got off the phone from trying to upgrade to a lifetime service for a tivo box bought and activated in December of '05. I was told that the service was no longer offered at all and that I could NOT upgrade to lifetime, and that there was nothing they could do.. nor anyone else that I could talk to regarded the matter. I was never notified of billing or service changed via a message or email. The only way I saw the changed at all was because I was looking for information to upgrade to the lifetime service.

So these changes stating that you may have until 4/15 for units bought before 3/15 appears to be false. If anyone else has had this problem please post, and any further questions for my situation do not hesitate to email me.


----------



## mike3775

probably because you tried to upgrade to late. You had until 3/15/06 8pm PST to upgrade.

I believe the people who have until 4/15 are the ones who bought it online from the Tivo store who probably wouldn't get the unit until after the deadline had passed.


----------



## Jersey

If what you say is true, then the choice of words chosen "to clarify for everyone" in the original really didn't clarify anything. It simply says purchased before 3/16. Regardless of any assumpsions we can make about the qualifications for upgrading post 3/15... I see very little in the way of customer appreciation and customer satifaction. A change like this being made with /no/ message, email, or letter of any kind sent regarding the change. It was clearly not done in the best interest of the customer. I purchased a year of service with every intension of upgrading to lifetime after I decided if I liked it. I decided to go ahead and upgrade and that is the only reason i see this now. Too late apparently. All it would have taken for me to upgrade sooner is if they cared enough to notify me. I'm disappointed.


----------



## mike3775

Jersey said:


> If what you say is true, then the choice of words chosen "to clarify for everyone" in the original really didn't clarify anything. It simply says purchased before 3/16. Regardless of any assumpsions we can make about the qualifications for upgrading post 3/15... I see very little in the way of customer appreciation and customer satifaction. A change like this being made with /no/ message, email, or letter of any kind sent regarding the change. It was clearly not done in the best interest of the customer. I purchased a year of service with every intension of upgrading to lifetime after I decided if I liked it. I decided to go ahead and upgrade and that is the only reason i see this now. Too late apparently. All it would have taken for me to upgrade sooner is if they cared enough to notify me. I'm disappointed.


Oh I agree fully with you. I am pissed that they didn't send an email or anything saying that there was an update priority list started 2 weeks ago for the spring update, as I hae been busy here and have not been to these forums in over a month or two.

When I finally came here again, I saw the spring update and that Tivo had changed their pricing policies, and I was never informed.

I really have no need to buy another Tivo, and S3 is a long ways off it seems, so I am not really ready to upgrade, and the only way I will upgrade to series 3 is if they offer some miracle program that series 2 doesn't have, and even then I have to weight the benefits of that.


----------



## HDTiVo

This situation has been one of perpetual chaos now for 10 days. No matter how hard anyone tries, the chaos just goes on.

Who ends up taking responsibility, and who gets the blame?


----------



## HDTiVo

Jersey said:


> I just got off the phone from trying to upgrade to a lifetime service for a tivo box bought and activated in December of '05. I was told that the service was no longer offered at all and that I could NOT upgrade to lifetime, and that there was nothing they could do.. nor anyone else that I could talk to regarded the matter. I was never notified of billing or service changed via a message or email. The only way I saw the changed at all was because I was looking for information to upgrade to the lifetime service.
> 
> So these changes stating that you may have until 4/15 for units bought before 3/15 appears to be false. If anyone else has had this problem please post, and any further questions for my situation do not hesitate to email me.


Its 4 days now and what is normally taken care of with a simple memo to all CS agents has not been done. Each agent who deals with this situation once will know the right answer, yet obviously many agents don't yet.

It is almost impossible to believable that TiVo is not intentionally having CS agents refuse Lifetime upfront in the hope some customers will take a disadvantageous plan.


----------



## Jersey

HDTiVo said:


> Its 4 days now and what is normally taken care of with a simple memo to all CS agents has not been done. Each agent who deals with this situation once will know the right answer, yet obviously many agents don't yet.
> 
> It is almost impossible to believable that TiVo is not intentionally having CS agents refuse Lifetime upfront in the hope some customers will take a disadvantageous plan.


I would believe that it's just the canned answer for anyone who asks the first time and does not pursue it further, but I've made two phone calls tonight alone and spoken to a manager once. He told me there was /nothing/ he could do in any way and that was the final word from corporate. However, I will continue to call anyone who will listen. I am curious.. has anyone in my position been able to upgrade to lifetime in the past few days?

I suppose if I cannot resolve this I will let my prepaid subscription run out and that will be the end of it. It really is ashame, such poor customer care when the product seems so good. It goes to show how important customer satisfaction really is. All it would have taken is them contacting their customers, but it was obviously not on the list of priorities.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

HDTiVo said:


> This situation has been one of perpetual chaos now for 10 days. No matter how hard anyone tries, the chaos just goes on.
> 
> Who ends up taking responsibility, and who gets the blame?


The blame for what? Eliminating a pricing plan without sending you, and everyone else, a personal notice?

I walked into Verizon Wireless on Friday. There was a poster, in the window, advertising two new RAZRs for $99.00 after rebate. I paid *more than double* that about a month ago. Was I pissed? Yes. Did I know in my heart that this promotion was already in the works when I bought my phones? Yes. Did this piss me off even more? Yes.

I am past the 15 day return policy, so I can't get a refund. You know what? It sucks, but this is part of life. Sometimes you get a deal, and other times you miss the deal by a hair.

I don't begrudge you for trying to get back what is no longer available. I just think that the situation is being blown way out of proportion. It's as simple as a good deal is no longer available.


----------



## Jersey

While I see where you were trying to go with that it's going to instead help make a point for my case. I too have Verizon Wireless, and anyone who does in fact use them can attest to the fact.. when there is a service or billing change they /do/ in fact notify you via a personal notice. They are always on a montly statement, and in some cases a text message to my phone. It's not that difficult and it's good practice when you do value your customer. You don't believe me, check your statements. They chose not to leave their customers in the dark. 

This isn't an issue over how much I paid for the hardware.


----------



## Redscott

Jersey said:


> While I see where you were trying to go with that it's going to instead help make a point for my case. I too have Verizon Wireless, and anyone who does in fact use them can attest to the fact.. when there is a service or billing change they /do/ in fact notify you via a personal notice. They are always on a montly statement, and in some cases a text message to my phone. It's not that difficult and it's good practice when you do value your customer. You don't believe me, check your statements. They chose not to leave their customers in the dark.
> 
> This isn't an issue over how much I paid for the hardware.


I agree good communication is good business and when you can communicate at reduced costs on the very same technology your selling then there really is no excuse.


----------



## tonyonlinux

Well, I'm not really pissed more confused than anything. TivoOpsMgr says prior 3/15/06 in his post but when I call tivo like he instructed they say sorry no can do when I talked to a supervisor. So who is actually right? The Service Operations manager or the Supervisor?


----------



## Redscott

tonyonlinux said:


> Well, I'm not really pissed more confused than anything. TivoOpsMgr says prior 3/15/06 in his post but when I call tivo like he instructed they say sorry no can do when I talked to a supervisor. So who is actually right? The Service Operations manager or the Supervisor?


Just a thought but anyone try faxing the Service Operations manager's informative posts from this website forum to the Tivo call center supervisor?


----------



## tonyonlinux

If Tivo really wanted their customers to know they could have easily put up one of those message like "the lineup has changed" So when you turn on your tivo you would have seen it and been informed of the change. It wouldn't have costed anything because it could have been an automatic message sent to every tivo box.

I hate to say but if I find an equal alternative to tivo that offers the same kind of service I'll switch. This reminds me of when I use to take martial arts. I would go there every day to train and would always talk about how good the art was and the school. Then one day out of the blue they raise their fees thru the roof and start making you pay to be an assistant instructor. I had to pay to teach for them. I thought that was crazy cause noone was informed until they got a bill in the mail. 
As a result I quit because I seen the organization as being nothing but a bunch of money hungry individuals.

Also, what is tivo going to do about all the boxes that Best Buy is selling on their website that says 299 lifetime subscription? I just checked Best Buys site and its still there.



Redscott said:


> I agree good communication is good business and when you can communicate at reduced costs on the very same technology your selling then there really is no excuse.


----------



## Troy J B

Redscott said:


> Just a thought but anyone try faxing the Service Operations manager's informative posts from this website forum to the Tivo call center supervisor?


If it was me, I would wait for TivoOpsMgr to come to work Monday and let him straighten out the call center. Or at the most, email TivoOpsMgr notifying him of the confusion at the call center.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

There's no excuse for the level of confusion and misinformation around this issue.

There is a reason--there has to be. Most likely one is incompetence at the highest levels. Most disturbing one is that perhaps it is all deliberate.

Certainly, it's despicable, in either case.


----------



## Alpinemaps

I posted in the sticky thread, when I really should have posted here, but, I basically experienced the same thing today. Even had the supervisor read the sticky post. He quoted part of it to me, but when I pressed him on the 'no where does it say I had to buy the unit within the last 30 days', he stopped, and said there was nothing he could do, except elevate it a level higher.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Jersey said:


> While I see where you were trying to go with that it's going to instead help make a point for my case. I too have Verizon Wireless, and anyone who does in fact use them can attest to the fact.. when there is a service or billing change they /do/ in fact notify you via a personal notice. They are always on a montly statement, and in some cases a text message to my phone. It's not that difficult and it's good practice when you do value your customer. You don't believe me, check your statements. They chose not to leave their customers in the dark.
> 
> This isn't an issue over how much I paid for the hardware.


The whole point is that deals come and go, and we have to learn to deal with it. I think you got that though... 

My pricing plans have run out at Verizon, and I was grandfathered in at the lower price with more minutes. Great deal  ....oh wait a second. My phone broke, and I was eligible for the promotional rate. Cool again  ....oh wait a second. In order to get the promotional rate on the phone, I had to get one of the new plans at a higher rate with less minutes. A plan with no phone...not such a good deal anymore 

But you know what? *It was a good deal while it lasted !*


----------



## Redscott

What I do not understand with lifetime is that from the Press release there was only about a week before it was gone for "life". What is the rush??

I mean is Tivo so much on the brink of financial crisis that they have to get rid of new life time subs so quickly? 

Tivo has had loyal subs for years who merit fair warning and I personally think 30 days delay would of been the right thing to do. 

30 days would of given Tivo the time to Communicate and for many on the fence for lifetime to get in on the program without all this ****e.

Please enlighten me about how much 3 more weeks would of lost Tivo on regular subs?


----------



## Jersey

DCIFRTHS said:


> The whole point is that deals come and go, and we have to learn to deal with it. I think you got that though...


Aye, I did get that.. however my whole point is that it would only be good business practice if you are a company that cares for your customers to notify them of such a change in service. As Redscott said.. it would not be very hard to drop a message using the technology they are selling. Can you really dispute that?


----------



## HDTiVo

Jersey said:


> Aye, I did get that.. however my whole point is that it would only be good business practice if you are a company that cares for your customers to notify them of such a change in service. As Redscott said.. it would not be very hard to drop a message using the technology they are selling. Can you really dispute that?


Someone needs to explain that customers also come and go...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Jersey said:


> Aye, I did get that.. however my whole point is that it would only be good business practice if you are a company that cares for your customers to notify them of such a change in service. As Redscott said.. it would not be very hard to drop a message using the technology they are selling. Can you really dispute that?


I will agree that if TiVo wanted to offer Lifetime to its existing customers, before it discontinued it, they could have sent a message using the service.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

HDTiVo said:


> Someone needs to explain that customers also come and go...


Are you canceling your TiVo service or selling your Lifetime boxes?


----------



## mchips

ThreeSoFar said:


> There's no excuse for the level of confusion and misinformation around this issue.
> 
> There is a reason--there has to be. Most likely one is incompetence at the highest levels. Most disturbing one is that perhaps it is all deliberate.
> 
> Certainly, it's despicable, in either case.


 I'm sorry, such conspiracy theories is taking it just a bit too far...

The one thing this forum shows anyone on the outside looking in, is that no matter what TiVo does, there are people who will find a way to gripe about it... people griping like this is nothing new, it's just something new to gripe about...

TiVo didn't have to give any notice or grace period at all... and perhaps they shouldn't have, to avoid any confusion or such conspiracy theories...

When I first started in this conversation, I was taking the stance that maybe TiVo will be able to offer it again in the future... but seeing how people are reacting here, I don't think it's something they should ever offer again... people are not going to be able to get a Lifetime option from anywhere else...

As someone else said, customers come and go all the time... this will all eventually be ancient history...

It was nice while it lasted, but most people would rather pay less up front, and more in the long run... that's the American way... get it now, pay for it later...

TiVo now has an array of plans to fit those who want that...

Everything else is still the same, with plans that now include a box for as little as $2.80, for those that prefer to pay more now and less later... but less, not nothing, as in paying for service for two years and then getting it for free after that, as with the Lifetime option.

Again, it was nice while it lasted, but such a great deal couldn't last forever... the thing is, this news didn't come out of left field... people, on this forum, have been speculating for years that it was going to happen eventually... well, eventually is now...

It was nice while it lasted...


----------



## HDTiVo

DCIFRTHS said:


> Are you canceling your TiVo service or selling your Lifetime boxes?


The appropriate question is 'will someone in the position of trying to become a customer chose not to?'

My current status and plans are irrelevant; since they are unaffected at this time, I have no reason to change anything. In the future, my plans my well change with regard to TiVo purchases.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

HDTiVo said:


> The appropriate question is 'will someone in the position of trying to become a customer chose not to?'


That is certainly *one* valid question, but it is not the *only* one....but to address it: Some people will continue to purchase TiVo, and some might not. I suspect this has been going on for quite some time now. People making choices that is....



HDTiVo said:


> My current status and plans are irrelevant; since they are unaffected at this time, I have no reason to change anything. In the future, my plans my well change with regard to TiVo purchases.


I think that your plans are relevant for two reasons:

1) You are posting in every thread you can find to point out how horrible TiVo is because they killed Lifetime.

2) I'm curious to see if all the complaining is going to be followed up by dropping the service. Based on the posts I've read from you, you don't seem like the kind of person that would want to continue a relationship with a company that has pulled such an underhanded, despicable thing. Am I wrong?

For the record: I don't think TiVo did an underhanded, despicable thing.


----------



## interactiveTV

mchips said:


> TiVo didn't have to give any notice or grace period at all... and perhaps they shouldn't have, to avoid any confusion or such conspiracy theories...


 Not so sure about that. I'm pretty certain we can all agree it would have been a problem if someone orders a Tivo from Tivo.com on Day 1, it doesn't arrive until Day 10 and on Day 6 lifetime is executed with no notice or grace period.

Heck, the Humax website still lists lifetime as an option:
"Requires TiVo® Service Activation
$12.95 a month or a one-time product lifetime fee of $299 
See TiVo.com for details and other service options"

http://www.humaxusa.com/products_DRT800_80.html

Notice, grace period, exemptions: all needed

In a month or so, this will all be behind us and the S3 watch will take center court.

_ITV


----------



## Budget_HT

Jersey said:


> I just got off the phone from trying to upgrade to a lifetime service for a tivo box bought and activated in December of '05. I was told that the service was no longer offered at all and that I could NOT upgrade to lifetime, and that there was nothing they could do.. nor anyone else that I could talk to regarded the matter. I was never notified of billing or service changed via a message or email. The only way I saw the changed at all was because I was looking for information to upgrade to the lifetime service.
> 
> So these changes stating that you may have until 4/15 for units bought before 3/15 appears to be false. If anyone else has had this problem please post, and any further questions for my situation do not hesitate to email me.


I read somewhere in this thread, in a post from either TiVoPony or TiVoOpsMgr, that the 4/15 lifetime grace period for new TiVo's bought before 3/15 applies ONLY to boxes that have never been activated.

If your Dec. '05 box has already been activated, it does not qualify.

It would have helped if their more recent post restated the not-previously-activated requirement.


----------



## HDTiVo

Budget_HT said:


> I read somewhere in this thread, in a post from either TiVoPony or TiVoOpsMgr, that the 4/15 lifetime grace period for new TiVo's bought before 3/15 applies ONLY to boxes that have never been activated.
> 
> If your Dec. '05 box has already been activated, it does not qualify.
> 
> It would have helped if their more recent post restated the not-previously-activated requirement.


CHAOS, CHAOS I say!!!



ITV said:


> Heck, the Humax website still lists lifetime as an option:
> "Requires TiVo® Service Activation
> $12.95 a month or a one-time product lifetime fee of $299
> See TiVo.com for details and other service options"


----------



## HDTiVo

DCIFRTHS said:


> I think that your plans are relevant for two reasons:
> 
> 1) You are posting in every thread you can find to point out how horrible TiVo is because they killed Lifetime.
> 
> 2) I'm curious to see if all the complaining is going to be followed up by dropping the service. Based on the posts I've read from you, you don't seem like the kind of person that would want to continue a relationship with a company that has pulled such an underhanded, despicable thing. Am I wrong?


The second part of my answer explained what I am doing and that my future plans may be affected. Specifically, for the first time there is a significant possibility that TiVo will not get my future new business.

In addition to my personal plans, I can no longer evangelize for TiVo to other people as effectively as I did before. I am stumped when it comes to pricing and terms.

As for the rest, you have not understood what I am saying. If you are interested, please go back and read my posts over.


----------



## Narf54321

DCIFRTHS said:


> That is certainly *one* valid question, but it is not the *only* one....but to address it: Some people will continue to purchase TiVo, and some might not.


Jumping in here... I'm certainly not giving up my Lifetime boxes, that's a silly argument.

I think the big point you are missing is that Tivo is positioned as a _service _company, one which had a reputation for innovation and good service. Many of the recent actions by TiVo (especially out-and-out dropping Lifetime option) can be considered anti-customer. Actually for me it was the ugly "early-termination" fee, but I always felt the Lifetime option was a point of redemption.

As a result, many of us early adopters and former fans will *not* be recommending TiVo. I believe most of Tivo's success up to this point has been from word-of-mouth, now it has become a cell-phone-like deceitful company. Many of us *no longer* recommend Tivo to friends, co-workers, or even strangers at the store.

You'd think with DirecTV dumping Tivo, they'd want to keep their army of unpaid evangilzers happy to fill the upcoming huge void of the satellite subscribers. Perhaps we don't count for as much as we used to, in the early days. But certainly the 'new' Tivo under Tom Rogers is much more deceitful. And while I will use my own Tivo lifetime boxes until the day they die, I won't be recommending them anymore.


----------



## dgh

DCIFRTHS said:


> I'm curious to see if all the complaining is going to be followed up by dropping the service. Based on the posts I've read from you, you don't seem like the kind of person that would want to continue a relationship with a company that has pulled such an underhanded, despicable thing. Am I wrong?


Does lifetime constitute a "relationship" in the classic sense? I'm not sure. It's not like I can protest by withholding payment or that they would really notice if I sold mine, or care if I threw it away. My current plan is to keep the current unit as long as I can and then see whatever solutions exist when it dies. The only change for me is that the "next unit" used to be assumed to be a TiVo, and specifically the S3 this year. Now the TiVos are pretty low on the list. Alternatively, if this does inflate the price of lifetimed TiVos on ebay, I may sell earlier if I see a good HD PVR on the market. By going with lifetime, the last six and half years of TiVo use have cost me about $300 (hw and service). If I had been running monthly at the current price, I would already have around $1300 (and growing) sunk in to this TiVo. That's a dramatic change in price performance ratios.

I don't think that dropping lifetime makes them "underhanded" and "despicable", but rather just prices them out of my consideration. Saying that this is not a price hike might qualify for your adjectives but by this measure, so are a lot of marketing departments. Then again, when TiVolutionary left, he mentioned how, when he joined, TiVo was going to be a different kind of company, and the marketing department shows again that they didn't turn out that way. I guess that's not too surprising though.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

mchips said:


> I'm sorry,[snip]...


Me too. Because you missed my point entirely. The despicable part is how haphazardly this was done, and how misinformed their own people are at the phone lines about this, and most of all, how poorly treated TiVo customers are.

Yes, I realize that the phone support is likely not "TiVo", _per se_, but contracted out. Bullox. They represent TiVo in a formal capacity, so they are, indeed, TiVo. And the fact that loyal (or brand new) TiVo customers are faced with running the gamut of ignorance through many levels of support just to get what they bought TiVo for to begin with is bad business.

My "conspiracy" theory, as you so entertainingly name it, was mere speculation on this fact: There has to be a reason this was done so poorly. My first choice was incompetent business practice fromt he top down. That's hardly a wild theory--businesses are run poorly all the time.


----------



## HDTiVo

ThreeSoFar said:


> Me too. Because you missed my point entirely. The despicable part is how haphazardly this was done, ...


Well, its good for us all to have a reminder of just where "despicable" came from. 

Now we need someone to own up to "underhanded."


----------



## mchips

ThreeSoFar said:


> -businesses are run poorly all the time.


As are people's wild speculations...

Whenever people don't get what they want, they start slamming and mudslinging... how many times have people told their parents they hate them during one of their tantrums or Tizzy fits, but don't really mean it...

I think some people here need to get into their Tizzy tubes...


----------



## ThreeSoFar

mchips said:


> As are people's wild speculations...
> 
> Whenever people don't get what they want, they start slamming and mudslinging... how many times have people told their parents they hate them during one of their tantrums or Tizzy fits, but don't really mean it...
> 
> I think some people here need to get into their Tizzy tubes...


I mudsling when it's warranted. Changing your policy, but not doing so in a concerted effort so all parties involved (their own phone support, best buy and other stores that sell them, etc.) get the message out at the same time is just bad business. And their renown lack of customer service in dealing with these types of problems will only make it worse.

I hate their current business practices. I fear for their future. I believe I was once a TiVo apologist like you Mr. Chips. Not any longer.


----------



## mchips

ThreeSoFar said:


> I mudsling when it's warranted.


And who doesn't think their own mudslinging is warranted? 

I'm sorry, but I can't sympathize with people whining over losing free service... I can understand how people would be upset, it was a great deal and who doesn't like free stuff? But that happens, and there isn't anything despicable or underhanded about it. Great deals come and go all the time, and those who are proactive at seeking them out find them; those who wait too long, generally miss out... life...

I agree other companies, like Best Buy (whom I sent a message to their corporate headquarters to let them know it's causing a Tizzy here so that they'll hopefully get that updated), could have done better in getting their websites updated, but I don't see that as underhanded, despicable, or done on purpose to confuse everyone... that's just life... if you find this despicable, then there isn't anything in America that isn't, at one time or another...

Mistakes and miscommunication, that's a people-problem, and has probably existed since man could communicate.

That's not why people are really upset... they're upset over losing Lifetime, know it's something they can't get elsewhere, and so are then taking every opportunity to slam TiVo as a result...


----------



## HDTiVo

ThreeSoFar said:


> Changing your policy, but not doing so in a concerted effort so all parties involved (their own phone support, best buy and other stores that sell them, etc.) get the message out at the same time is just bad business.


The pertinent questions at this point are:

1. Who will step up and take responsibility for fixing this situation.

2. Who will be blamed for the disaster. Who will be fired?

3. What changes will be made to correct this misguided new marketing plan? Who will figure it out and get changes implemented...

*A Better Plan*


----------



## mchips

No one needs to be fired, and it certainly is far from a disaster...  

Does anyone remember Katrina? Now that was a disaster... we need to be able to keep our priorities straight people...


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> Does anyone remember Katrina? Now that was a disaster... we need to be able to keep our priorities straight people...


Yes lets. TiVo is in no way related to Katrina. Corporate disasters are much different than Natural disasters. You are welcome to move to a Katrina forum if you think discussing TiVo policies is too trifling for you.


----------



## lajohn27

Everytime a corporation the size of TIVO with the number of partners TIVO has.. initiates a change.. it always takes time for all the affected parties to address the change. Historically this has been the case..

I can't see why this time would be any different. Further, the phrase 'mountain out of molehill' comes to mind.. but good luck chasing Rogers' resignation anyway.

J


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> Yes lets. TiVo is in no way related to Katrina. Corporate disasters are much different than Natural disasters. You are welcome to move to a Katrina forum if you think discussing TiVo policies is too trifling for you.


Yes, I do find people's obsession with getting free service a tad bit trifling...

My girlfriend broke a nail the other day, and believe me, she thought that was a disaster...

There were more people who lost everything because of Katrina who showed more grace and self-respect than many of those in this thread who are up in arms over losing free service...

Nonetheless, this is far from any type of disaster, and lajohn27 makes a very good point...


----------



## timckelley

I'm REALLY GLAD I saw the press release via this forum before the deadline for upgrading to lifetime passed, on my already activated unit. 

Btw, has anybody tried to lifetime a never before actived unit bought before 3/16, and was denied?


----------



## HDTiVo

The new marketing plan was under development for several months. TiVo claims to have done its own extensive and thorough market research. Evidence of the research goes back to at least Nov/Oct. 

This is not a last minute situation where all the players could not have been brought up to speed. There was no need for TiVo to embark on the new plan until it was ready. From the evolution of the plan since its public announcement, it is clear that it was significantly incomplete and flawed and has since been undergoing ad hoc revisions in an attempt to patch the flaws.

Retail partners were obviously not on board with the new plan. TiVo was still defining prices and terms for retail sales after the announcement. Given the serious flaws in price points and terms, it is no wonder TiVo could not get its retail partners on board.


----------



## timckelley

From a different thread, this post was made at 1:36 pm today (i.e. about an hour and a half ago):



TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Folks, apologies if any of you have difficulty getting Product Lifetime with customer support. We've made sure to train them on the policy because there was some confusion earlier. If you had difficulty before, please try again.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


Maybe your next calls will fruitful. Still, I wonder why the training happened after the rules change, and after people were wrongfully turned down. 

Also, we probably need reclarification about whether or not units that have already been activated are eligible, or if this is only for never before activated units bought before 3/16.


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> Yes, I do find people's obsession with getting free service a tad bit trifling...


As I find most of your posts lately. Oh the troubles we must endure at the TiVo Coffee house.



mchips said:


> Nonetheless, this is far from any type of disaster, and lajohn27 makes a very good point...


Naturally, since lajohn's point was basically the same as yours only less trollishly stated.


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> As I find most of your posts lately. Oh the troubles we must endure at the TiVo Coffee house.
> 
> Naturally, since lajohn's point was basically the same as yours only less trollishly stated.


"I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you..." 

I thought that might be more down to your level... 

Actually, if I had any more respect for what you say as you do for what I say, then what you just said might have stung a little... but it actually ended up being no more than a little tickle...


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> "I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you..."
> 
> I thought that might be more down to your level...
> 
> Actually, if I had any more respect for what you say as you do for what I say, then what you just said might have stung a little... but it actually ended up being no more than a little tickle...


Oh my... Who would have guessed that you could beat:



mchips said:


>


----------



## Redscott

It's very clear that those discussing what Tivo did wrong in their approach/method to the changes provide facts.

Those that argue directly or indirectly in Tivo's Favor provide.............  .


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> Oh my... Who would have guessed that you could beat:


 Yay, I guess I was finally down low enough that you finally were able to understand something that I said...


----------



## Rottluver

Any chance y'all will take your little pi$$ing contest somehere else? Most of us are coming here to get info, not watch yet ANOTHER message board drama-fest.

Thanks.


----------



## mchips

Redscott said:


> It's very clear that those discussing what Tivo did wrong in their approach/method to the changes provide facts.
> 
> Those that argue directly or indirectly in Tivo's Favor provide.............  .


If you take it and flip it or reverse it, then you have a true statement...

This thread has been going around in circles for days now, with many facts provided from both sides, that there now seems nothing left to do but act like children and begin telling one another who's more stupid...


----------



## dgh

Redscott said:


> Those that argue directly or indirectly in Tivo's Favor provide.............  .


You seem to have missed mchips' primary argument:



mchips said:


>


----------



## mchips

> Originally Posted by*TiVoOpsMgr*
> _I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Tom Rogers
> I know some subscribers have responded very warmly to the Product Lifetime option in the past -- they should, it's way too good a deal._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tiellv*
> We've been spoiled. We've been given something very extra special for the last few years and now they've taken it away and we're *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * like spoiled children
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Though it's not my primary argument, I do still agree with this...


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Rottluver said:


> Any chance y'all will take your little pi$$ing contest somehere else? Most of us are coming here to get info, not watch yet ANOTHER message board drama-fest.
> 
> Thanks.


"responses to summary" seems to be the perfect place.

In a word, "no".


----------



## mchips

ThreeSoFar said:


> "responses to summary" seems to be the perfect place.
> 
> In a word, "no".


I couldn't agree more.

It's better to read the summary and FAQ of the new pricing plans compiled by the TiVo team by clicking here than trying to read through this thread.


----------



## lastplaced

xnevergiveinx said:


> i just called tivo, because i ordered the refurbed box yesterday. they will be getting rid of lifetime subs on the 18th.
> i was worried that i wouldn't get my tivo box in time before they get rid of lifetime, and when i called to get my lifetime sub, they would say i couldn't get one.
> 
> the cool guy on the phone said that i can call and get my lifetime sub no problem if i do it before the 18th. if i call after the 18th, they just need to get approval from a supervisor. he said that 30 days after the 18th is the grace period for all the people that bought series 2 refurb boxes to get lifetime subs.
> that made me feel so much better.
> 
> this is awesome news for anyone who currently has a lifetime sub on a tivo, because they will be worth more when selling on ebay!
> 
> i wonder if the second tivo i have will still be $6.95 a month?


I am POed, I called on the 18th and they said it was too late to sign up for Lifetime.


----------



## JoEbY

Here's my story (so far):

We have a TiVo 80-hr Series 2 (TCD540080) purchased 12/04, lifetime service. My wife bought another one at Best Buy on Mon. 3/13/06 for our bedroom. The box says:

"The TiVo(R) service is easy to activate and is available for a low monthly fee or a one-time product lifetime subscription."

We took a few days to see if it would work out in the bedroom, and last night (3/18/06) I sat down to order lifetime service for the new box (because I am willing to wager I will keep this beyond the 3 year, 7 month break-even point for a second box) and discovered the "no more lifetime" news, apparently just hours too late. I, too, was surprised that current customers were given no warning about this. No mention in the 3/16/06 TiVo Newsletter.

I called customer service this morning to ask if they can squeeze me in late, and I got a supervisor "John" who claimed there is nothing he can do. He said even he couldn't get lifetime service for himself if he wanted to. I then discovered TiVoOpsMgr's post about the grace period:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3846632#post3846632

Since this quite plainly applies to me, I called back, and the rep said he thinks he can do it. He blind transferred me to tech support, where the lady immediately acknowledged the grace period, said I was transferred to her by accident, and typed in to my case report that I can get lifetime service and said she would transfer me to "advanced account management" where they would take care of it, and if not, I should ask for a supervisor. So guess who I get again? John. He again refused to help. I cited Mack's posting, where he dismissively said they do not honor tivocommunity.com. He said there was no one higher to talk to.

I then saw this, posted barely an hour prior:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3874020#post3874020

I called back a third time, and a gentleman named Lindsay was incredibly helpful. I guided him to both postings. He worked with the supervisors, called me back, and said they worked it out. Basically something similar to this guy's story:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3871478#post3871478

They will charge $6.95 to get the second box activated, then later this week the accounting guys will credit it back, charge $299, and make it lifetime. He said there are 14 or 15 requests ahead of mine so it may take a while.

I was very grateful for Lindsay, and asked him to let John know about this!


----------



## lajohn27

Facts?
A corporation the size of TIVO wants to make a major price change. Do you start training the Best Buy drones a few weeks in advance? No. Why? A leak of new pricing policy early... some enterprising journalist at CNET.com wants a story and the next thing, it's big disaster.

Same problem with training the CSRs'. They get trained LAST MINUTE. Don't confuse the message with the troops until the message is finalized and should be going public. I don't agree with that, but unfortunately that's how corporate America works. I can provide many examples of this.

We always forget that the members of this forum are a microcosm (And not a representative one at that) of the customer base, examining every TIVO move with a microscope and discussing it to death. A page on the TIVO website is found somewhere with data that's old and it gets posted in this forum. Whether it's about this issue or last year's fall lineup on the networks. We are the rabid consumers. We watch everything they do. And we seem to love to examine it to death.

Imagine if there was a message board for the company you worked for, and some of your customers examined every corporate move, every customer service policy change.. pricing changes.. everything. They commented, sent you emails with what they think your CEO should have done. They badmouth you and give you a hard time when you try to post and clarify the discussion. 

That would be more than a little uncomfortable for me. What about you? 

When you stand back from the average consumer's point of view - this isn't that confused and its not that messy. There are exceptions that have not been handled correctly and some have posted in these forums. And there are lots of questions, many of which have been answered with care and diligence by the TIVO employees who frequent these message boards. 

Some of us may not like the answers in all cases, but hey we got answers, right from the home office. Few companies operate like this on any reliable level. Imagine that Apple changed some policy with iTunes and your question wasn't answered in their online materials. You'd have to get on an 800 number. Talk to someone at an outsourced call center and maybe or maybe not get the correct answer. Remember the iPod battery issue? Or the scratch screen issues? There were tons of questions around those issues but no direct line of information from the company to the community.

As with any large corporation, there are partners and affiliated companies that are not yet fully up to speed on all the associated issues with this change. That is to be expected, especially given that we are just a few days into this change. For pete's sake people, give the folks a chance to do their job and get thru the change. 

We all love to criticize and point out how things could have been done better. I like to think that a lot of this is because of the passion many of us feel for the TIVO brand. We're very protective of it. Especially those who criticize it. I happen to think its because we all see the potential that is not being realized... 

One thing I can tell you, it doesn't matter if it's NBC, General Electric, DirecTV, DishNetwork or Verizon Wireless. Whenever a large company makes a major change in policy or pricing with wide reaching implications, it always takes time to turn a large ship in a slightly different direction.

To say that this could have been handled better is probably true. Sometimes things don't go according to a well thought out plan. Partners don't react in time, websites aren't changed in time, call center employees aren't properly trained in time. 

If the United States government, military, the CIA etc.. can mismanage a war, get intelligence as wrong as they did and somehow double the American debt in less than 6 years.. it seems easy to understand how a small corporate entity can slightly mess up a price and policy change with this many implications.

In corporate America, when the rubber meet the road, there is often slippage..

We are NOT privy to the inside details of why things have turned out as they have. It could be that the press release that I posted to start this thread (yes, I'm to blame) was released early by accident.. everybody's been scrambling every since and some schmuck in PR has been fired..

We simply don't know. Nor do we need to.

John


----------



## Crrink

mchips said:


> If you take it and flip it or reverse it, then you have a true statement...
> 
> This thread has been going around in circles for days now, with many facts provided from both sides, that there now seems nothing left to do but act like children and begin telling one another who's more stupid...


And thankfully you've provided such an excellent example for the rest of us 'children' to follow.


----------



## Stylin

To: mchips/Larry,
I've read many of your posts in this thread, and although I may not agree with you, I am able to concede to the logic you are using, but recently you have made statements that imho are not logical.


mchips said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't sympathize with people whining over losing free service... I can understand how people would be upset, it was a great deal and who doesn't like free stuff? But that happens, and there isn't anything despicable or underhanded about it. Great deals come and go all the time, and those who are proactive at seeking them out find them; those who wait too long, generally miss out... life...


 FREE?? To my knowledge every subscriber with LT sub PAID for the service. They did not steal or pirate it. TiVo set the contract, not the subscriber. They put down their hard earned cash and entered into a contract with TiVo in exchange for that cash. Before you start going on about the 3.5 yr breakeven point, realize that only works in comparison to REGULAR pricing. What TiVo sold and subscribers purchased was a DISCOUNTED rate. Wheteher that rate be $6.95 a month to $0.10 or a penny a year, it is still the discounted rate that TiVo sold to their customers via LT sub. There is no FREE service. It's just a term that one uses to makes itself feel better about the original contract price paid.



Jersey said:


> Aye, I did get that.. however my whole point is that it would only be good business practice if you are a company that cares for your customers to notify them of such a change in service. As Redscott said.. it would not be very hard to drop a message using the technology they are selling. Can you really dispute that?


C'mon? How can you argue with that? There is a point where even you should be mature enough to admit that current subscribers should have been notified. Oh! I found your argument:


mchips said:


> Again, it was nice while it lasted, but such a great deal couldn't last forever... the thing is, this news didn't come out of left field... people, on this forum, have been speculating for years that it was going to happen eventually... well, eventually is now...


So basically you are saying that every TiVo customer should be a member of this forum in order to be informed?? That is absolutely ridiculous. I am a Cablevision, Verizon and Nextel customer - I've never visited any of there forums. Nor should I have to, in order to be made aware of any policy/service changes. Current TiVo subscribers should have been notified in an organized manner. There is no 2 ways about that, especially since the company has the technology to do so.

I am one of those "proactive" shoppers you mentioned. I heard (3/9) about about the end of LT, and bought my 1st TiVo unit (3/11) w/ LT. I informed my neighbors a day before the purchase cutoff and was stunned (they were the ones who actually taught me what a dvr was) to learn they had no idea of the impending cease of LT. Now if they missed the cutoff date, sure they should be SOL, and your theory of "deals come and go" definitely applies. BUT to use that same theory on current subscribers is unfair and very bad service. Plain and simple. Even you should be big enough to admit that...


----------



## lajohn27

And not that anybody asked, but I too feel that TIVO should have sent a message about the elimination of lifetime to existing users. That's a no brainer. 

J


----------



## HDTiVo

dgh said:


> You seem to have missed mchips' primary argument:


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:


> Facts?
> A corporation the size of TIVO wants to make a major price change. Do you start training the Best Buy drones a few weeks in advance? No. Why? A leak of new pricing policy early... some enterprising journalist at CNET.com wants a story and the next thing, it's big disaster.


This is true if you're greatly reducing prices or introducing a product that so obsoletes the old one that no one would buy what's on the shelf. But having a run on Best Buy to get the price that has been offered for 5 years would hardly be a disaster (remember only Katrina counts anyway ). The local Best Buy only has two TiVos in stock. A run on that isn't going to hurt that much. I don't see much downside here.



lajohn27 said:


> Imagine if there was a message board for the company you worked for, and some of your customers examined every corporate move, every customer service policy change.. pricing changes.. everything. They commented, sent you emails with what they think your CEO should have done. They badmouth you and give you a hard time when you try to post and clarify the discussion.
> 
> That would be more than a little uncomfortable for me. What about you?


Imagine???? I've been reading Usenet news groups dedicated to my employer since 1982 and Web forums since the early 90s. I wouldn't miss them for the world.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

Nice post, john. Calming, in fact.

But I differ on your key point, which the way I read it pretty much dismisses most of your conclusions:

TIVO is not a large corporation. $560M is a big company, but a large corporation?

The ones you mentioned, and their Market Cap:

GE	$360B
NBC	(owned by GE)
DISH	$13B
DTV	$20B
VZ	$101B

TIVO is a small enough shop (343 employees) that they should not have difficulty that a larger company would have in this sort of change. The fact that they did speaks to mismanagement at the highest levels.



lajohn27 said:


> Facts?
> A corporation the size of TIVO wants to make a major price change. Do you start training the Best Buy drones a few weeks in advance? No. Why? A leak of new pricing policy early... some enterprising journalist at CNET.com wants a story and the next thing, it's big disaster.
> 
> Same problem with training the CSRs'. They get trained LAST MINUTE. Don't confuse the message with the troops until the message is finalized and should be going public. I don't agree with that, but unfortunately that's how corporate America works. I can provide many examples of this.
> 
> We always forget that the members of this forum are a microcosm (And not a representative one at that) of the customer base, examining every TIVO move with a microscope and discussing it to death. A page on the TIVO website is found somewhere with data that's old and it gets posted in this forum. Whether it's about this issue or last year's fall lineup on the networks. We are the rabid consumers. We watch everything they do. And we seem to love to examine it to death.
> 
> Imagine if there was a message board for the company you worked for, and some of your customers examined every corporate move, every customer service policy change.. pricing changes.. everything. They commented, sent you emails with what they think your CEO should have done. They badmouth you and give you a hard time when you try to post and clarify the discussion.
> 
> That would be more than a little uncomfortable for me. What about you?
> 
> When you stand back from the average consumer's point of view - this isn't that confused and its not that messy. There are exceptions that have not been handled correctly and some have posted in these forums. And there are lots of questions, many of which have been answered with care and diligence by the TIVO employees who frequent these message boards.
> 
> Some of us may not like the answers in all cases, but hey we got answers, right from the home office. Few companies operate like this on any reliable level. Imagine that Apple changed some policy with iTunes and your question wasn't answered in their online materials. You'd have to get on an 800 number. Talk to someone at an outsourced call center and maybe or maybe not get the correct answer. Remember the iPod battery issue? Or the scratch screen issues? There were tons of questions around those issues but no direct line of information from the company to the community.
> 
> As with any large corporation, there are partners and affiliated companies that are not yet fully up to speed on all the associated issues with this change. That is to be expected, especially given that we are just a few days into this change. For pete's sake people, give the folks a chance to do their job and get thru the change.
> 
> We all love to criticize and point out how things could have been done better. I like to think that a lot of this is because of the passion many of us feel for the TIVO brand. We're very protective of it. Especially those who criticize it. I happen to think its because we all see the potential that is not being realized...
> 
> One thing I can tell you, it doesn't matter if it's NBC, General Electric, DirecTV, DishNetwork or Verizon Wireless. Whenever a large company makes a major change in policy or pricing with wide reaching implications, it always takes time to turn a large ship in a slightly different direction.
> 
> To say that this could have been handled better is probably true. Sometimes things don't go according to a well thought out plan. Partners don't react in time, websites aren't changed in time, call center employees aren't properly trained in time.
> 
> If the United States government, military, the CIA etc.. can mismanage a war, get intelligence as wrong as they did and somehow double the American debt in less than 6 years.. it seems easy to understand how a small corporate entity can slightly mess up a price and policy change with this many implications.
> 
> In corporate America, when the rubber meet the road, there is often slippage..
> 
> We are NOT privy to the inside details of why things have turned out as they have. It could be that the press release that I posted to start this thread (yes, I'm to blame) was released early by accident and some schmuck in PR has been fired..
> 
> We simply don't know. Nor do we need to.
> 
> John


----------



## Rottluver

dgh said:


> This is true if you're greatly reducing prices or introducing a product that so obsoletes the old one that no one would buy what's on the shelf. But having a run on Best Buy to get the price that has been offered for 5 years would hardly be a disaster (remember only Katrina counts anyway ). The local Best Buy only has two TiVos in stock. A run on that isn't going to hurt that much. I don't see much downside here.
> 
> Imagine???? I've been reading Usenet news groups dedicated to my employer since 1982 and Web forums since the early 90s. I wouldn't miss them for the world.


You are the exception to the rule.


----------



## lajohn27

It's not a run on Best Buy that's the problem.. imagine this muddled mess x 10 .. that would be the problem.


----------



## ThreeSoFar

lajohn27 said:


> And not that anybody asked, but I too feel that TIVO should have sent a message about the elimination of lifetime to existing users. That's a no brainer.
> 
> J


Here I agree with John. 100 freakin percent.

They can send me a note whenever Comcast changes their channel lineup. That's awesome.

But when TIVO itself HUGELY changes their pricing structure? No. Sorry. No Soup For You.


----------



## lajohn27

343 TIVO employees. How many High Definition Entertainment? How many at Best Buy? Those are employees that speak in TIVO's name but TIVO has no control over.

If you want to include them in the blame, you have to include them in the calculation.

At a minimum, TIVO is as sprawling saleswise (not dollars but geographically) and has nearly as many points of retail as DirecTV.

My point was that there are affiliated partners and what not that have to get informed and be trained. You know what I meant.

And tho I've posted it before - I'll post it again. I worked indirectly for Tom Rogers at NBC in New York. I think he's ruthless, calculating and any other dirty business word I can think of.. He'll either turn TIVO around or drive it MUCH further in the ground. 

And despite him being those dirty business words, I also think he's an idiot. But that's my personal opinion of the man and was formed long before he was even on the board of TIVO.

J


----------



## ThreeSoFar

lajohn27 said:


> 343 TIVO employees. How many High Definition Entertainment? How many at Best Buy? Those are employees that speak in TIVO's name but TIVO has no control over.
> 
> If you want to include them in the blame, you have to include them in the calculation.
> 
> At a minimum, TIVO is as sprawling saleswise (not dollars but geographically) and has nearly as many points of retail as DirecTV.
> 
> My point was that there are affiliated partners and what not that have to get informed and be trained. You know what I meant.
> 
> J


My point was you're calling them a large corporation as justification for why they screw things up.

My point IS, it's their tiny stature, corporation wise, that leads them to this sort of Keystone Cops method of running a business.


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:


> It's not a run on Best Buy that's the problem.. imagine this muddled mess x 10 .. that would be the problem.


Why x 10? Why not x 13?

Then again, why not x 0.5 or x 0.2?


----------



## lajohn27

dgh said:


> Why x 10? Why not x 13?
> 
> Then again, why not x 0.5 or x 0.2?


Well.. if I'm just going to pick a number out of my butt.. 

Why not 666?

Giggle.


----------



## dswallow

Hey, shouldn't there be another thread for this by now? 1,000 per, remember? 

They can call the new thread "Desperate Subscribers".


----------



## lajohn27

ThreeSoFar said:


> My point IS, it's their tiny stature, corporation wise, that leads them to this sort of Keystone Cops method of running a business.


I won't argue that it's Keystone Cops management (see my edit about Tom Rogers a few posts back for more about this).

He's very reactive and a bad leader in my opinion.

But I stand by my comments about trying to turn a large ship. You're turning call centers , retailers etc. Its tough to do.

And yes, should have been better planned probably.

J


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:
 

> Well.. if I'm just going to pick a number out of my butt..
> 
> Why not 666?
> 
> Giggle.


OK, let me be more obvious - that 10 x comment didn't really say anything. You can say being 10 times worse than a "muddled mess" constitutes a "big disaster" but you haven't really given us any reason to believe that those are the only two choices or that more info sooner leads the "big disaster" as opposed to a "smaller mess".


----------



## lajohn27

DGH:

Ok.. so let's pretend for the sake of argument they trained the Best Buys guys three weeks ago. Some guy in Des Moines lets it slip that lifetime is going away.

Some enterprising character who was present for that conversation comes to this message board to say that lifetime is going away. Everyone seeks official word from TIVO - and the employees only say "We can't comment on that". 

Then.. CNET prints a story about a rumor of a major TIVO price/policy change in the offing and it only says that lifetime is going away and TIVO service will now include the box and will now be 19.95. So now the rumor is that TIVO service is going up to 20$ a month.. 

Then the some newspaper comes on here and gets reaction from a few posters and prints a story about a major price increase at TIVO.. and someone mentions lifetime is going away so all those lifetime subbed units are going to have to start paying.

A TIVO PR geek tells the reporter he can't given details right now.. but to wait a few days for their official release for details. He ignores that and runs with a story that says "TIVO officials refused to comment at this time.."

It doesn't take much imagination to figure how this could have been worse.

Best Buy employees would be the last trained on the change for the same reason as call center employees. Don't confuse the message on the sales floor until the change is in place. 

I don't agree with this thinking but I can assure you it's how things are done.

And frankly - given the reactions in this forum to just about anything these days - regardless of when where and how this was done - a big disaster was likely to be guaranteed.


----------



## HDTiVo

There was no secret leading up to the change, other than its bizzarre form.

Rogers, and others, publicly talked about the changes coming for at least 2 months, and again, the company worked on this at least 5 months.

The fact is the whole thing was not defined until after it was announced - in fact it is not fully defined even today, several days after its in effect. Alerting CS about the procedures for Lifetime is a brief email memo. It does not take 1.5 weeks to "train" Best Buy employees - but they still are not trained.


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:


> Everyone seeks official word from TIVO - and the employees only say "We can't comment on that".


That would be one option. The other option is to react to the leak. Leaks happen. Contingency plans for leaks are part of the job. This leak would simply have given more customers more time to make a decision if it had happened and been handled appropriately



lajohn27 said:


> Then.. CNET prints a story about a rumor of a major TIVO price/policy change in the offing and it only says that lifetime is going away and TIVO service will now include the box and will now be 19.95. So now the rumor is that TIVO service is going up to 20$ a month..


And sells a big pile of lifetimes as people realize that not only is monthly rumored to be going up now, it can always go up again.



lajohn27 said:


> Then the some newspaper comes on here and gets reaction from a few posters and prints a story about a major price increase at TIVO.. and someone mentions lifetime is going away so all those lifetime subbed units are going to have to start paying.


Well see now you're just makin stuff up and people can make stuff up at any time. Will TiVo Inc. say "No comment" to existing lifetimes going away? Well, they've already demonstrated that they aren't that dumb. Besides most of the rumors about my employer have been wrong and had nothing to do with anything we did or didn't do. Some were right or sort of right, but the readers could never successfully tell the right rumors from the wrong rumors. That was actually kind of entertaining - you know the whole - he knows something but no one's believing him bit.



lajohn27 said:


> It doesn't take much imagination to figure how this could have been worse.


And then an asteroid slams into Alviso California. Yes, like I said before, many things can be imagined. You try to imagine as many of them as you can during the planning stage of anything you do and decide how you will handle the most likely issues.


----------



## mchips

Crrink said:


> And thankfully you've provided such an excellent example for the rest of us 'children' to follow.


While two wrongs don't make a right, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, and people on the other side of this argument have thrown much lower punches than I...

Stylin, I'd address your comment, but I've already done it elsewhere in this thread, and am tired of going around in circles on this issue...

The one thing people like to do on this forum is gripe, and no, I can't be accused of that... I pick and choose my battles, and with my less than a hundred comments in three years to some people's thousands, I'd say I'm not one to argue or gripe... but I felt strongly that the strong words some people have been using on the other side of this issue needed a strong rebuttal in return...


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> but I felt strongly that the strong words some people have been using on the other side of this issue needed a strong rebuttal in return...


OK. Go ahead.


----------



## lajohn27

DGH:

What's your point exactly? I'm saying yes they screwed up. Could it have been worse? Probably. 

Could it have been MUCH better - yes for sure.

Are we arguing or ? I'm confused. I'd argue better but I'm not sure we're arguing.

J


----------



## cwerdna

lastplaced said:


> I am POed, I called on the 18th and they said it was too late to sign up for Lifetime.


Did you buy the unit before the 16th? If it's not a Humax DVD recorder with no activation history, you are out of luck.


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> OK. Go ahead.


Oh, you are so clever... 

I'd throw one back, and I had several, then decided to let your own immaturity speak for itself... oops, I threw one anyway...


----------



## Adam1115

I'm curious, the people calling up TiVo arguing about getting lifetime, did TiVo ask for any proof that you bought before the 15th? Could you buy today and argue that you bought it before the deadline? How would the know?


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> I'd throw one back, and I had several, then decided to let your own immaturity speak for itself... oops, I threw one anyway...


Such a strong rebuttal. That clears up everything then. Thread over.


----------



## dgh

lajohn27 said:


> DGH:
> 
> What's your point exactly? I'm saying yes they screwed up. Could it have been worse? Probably.
> 
> Could it have been MUCH better - yes for sure.
> 
> Are we arguing or ? I'm confused. I'd argue better but I'm not sure we're arguing.


Well either I disagree with much of the "facts?" post or it doesn't say what I think it says. Perhaps it's the latter.

Anyway, I agree with the above. "MUCH better" would be preferred, but worse is certainly conceivable.


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> Such a strong rebuttal.


You've obviously missed the point of that original post, but that doesn't surprise me, as once again it was over your head.

Strong in tone, was the point...

But that's immaterial, I'll let you get back to your complaints.

This is exactly why so many people avoid this forum anymore, myself included...

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."
"Misery loves company."

I prefer to surround myself with positive people, instead of such pessimism.

This thread is only going around in circles now, anyway, so I won't stand in the way of your whining anymore... carry on...


----------



## dswallow

mchips said:


> This thread is only going around in circles now, anyway, so I won't stand in the way of your whining anymore... carry on...


I lost track some time ago about which side was which; it's been nothing but whining for a while now and the cast of characters is blurry.


----------



## dgh

mchips said:


> You've obviously missed the point of that original post, but that doesn't surprise me, as once again it was over your head.


Nothing you've attempted was over anyone's head.



mchips said:


> I prefer to surround myself with positive people, instead of such pessimism.


So you say, and yet, in all of the threads in all of the forums on the tivocommunity, every one of your posts in the last week has been in this one. Maybe you know yourself less well than you think. If what you say is true, maybe it's time for your first post in the Happy Hour. (I'm not holding my breath.)


----------



## HDTiVo

mchips said:


> The one thing people like to do on this forum is gripe, and no, I can't be accused of that... I pick and choose my battles, and with my less than a hundred comments in three years to some people's thousands, I'd say I'm not one to argue or gripe... but I felt strongly that the strong words some people have been using on the other side of this issue needed a strong rebuttal in return...


I wonder why you chose to engage only in unproductive and nasty discourse which has added no value whatsoever to the subject, instead of engaging in a constructive discussion about what is right and wrong with the situation and how it could be made better?

A member since Feb '03, your first posts were in about Sep '05. Your entire post history virtually consists of participation in two threads, this one and 7.2.1 Software. Until late January, your posts were generally helpful to people and neutral in tone; rarely any edge could be found. Then at the end of January you made a post with some edge to it.

Your next entry was into this thread and from the start you have been counterproductive. You have helped cause the discussion to be pinned down and go nowhere. You have been nasty and you have been insulting.

Is there something going on in your personal life or elsewhere that has caused this change in your behavior?


----------



## mchips

dgh said:


> So you say, and yet, in all of the threads in all of the forums on the tivocommunity, every one of your posts in the last week has been in this one. Maybe you know yourself less well than you think. If what you say is true, maybe it's time for your first post in the Happy Hour. (I'm not holding my breath.)


Once again, you missed the point...

But thank you for helping to illustrate mine... yes, as I said previously, I pick and choose my battles (which probably explains why I'm only here)... I chose this one, and only one, instead of whining about anything and everything like some people, without naming names (I'm not saying everyone does)... As you've now noticed and pointed out, I've stayed out of the other similar price-plan bashing threads... I figured one was enough for me...

Yes, I know there are a few threads, or so I've heard, that some people say they only go to, to avoid the whining in the rest of the forum... one day, I may take the time to check them out... or not...

HDTiVo, your last totally baseless post doesn't even deserve a response... you are the epitome of the TCF whiner...

Your method of arguing is just to throw insults with the strongest words you can find... I simply find you pathetic, and feel sorry for you...

But go ahead, continue to throw insults at me... anything to get away from that incessant whining over the Lifetime option being taken away from you... 

I'll take the hits...


----------



## HDTiVo

I'd like to say something else about the presumption of training difficulties...

It strikes me that there has not been a single post to the effect that someone bought a TiVo and CS wasn't up to speed on the new contract options. Somehow CS got trained properly in time to sell the new product, but didn't get the simple message about offering Lifetime to units bought before 3/16/06.

The Lifetime exceptions are easily explained in a brief email memo to all CS agents. Such a memo would take a fraction of the time to send versus the time TiVo has spent here re-explaining the facts over and over to this tiny fraction of the customer base.


----------



## hi-nrg-joe

Narf54321 said:


> Many of us *no longer* recommend Tivo to friends, co-workers, or even strangers at the store.
> 
> And while I will use my own Tivo lifetime boxes until the day they die, I won't be recommending them anymore.


 :down: to the comment above.

....why would you say that many of us "no longer" recommend Tivo to friends, etc...?? Tivo is still the front runner of PVR's and in my opinion will probably stay that way. Just because life-time went away, that is no reason not to recommend Tivo. Many of the people I recommend to Tivo pay monthly anyways. The service is still the same, and for you who has paid for lifetime, will continue. Besides the service, Tivo has been putting out new features year after year. Whether or not the extra features are beneficial to you, they didn't cost you any more to use them.

Secondly, if you want your Lifetime to continue, then you would be smart to keep recommending Tivo to others so they can continue providing service to your lifetime boxes.

I like lifetime also, but just because it's gone doesn't mean that I don't like or support Tivo anymore. I'm sure if the company you work for had free bagels on Tuesdays and then they stopped providing them, you wouldn't quite your job would you?


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## ZeoTiVo

so anything happen while I was out ?


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## ThreeSoFar

hi-nrg-joe said:


> :down: to the comment above.
> 
> ....why would you say that many of us "no longer" recommend Tivo to friends, etc...?? Tivo is still the front runner of PVR's and in my opinion will probably stay that way. ...


Perhaps he says that because it's fact?

And in what world is TiVo the "front runner" PVR? Quality wise perhaps.

But numbers wise, customer wise, sales wise, profit wise....no to all of these.


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## dgh

mchips said:


> Yes, I know there are a few threads, or so I've heard, that some people say they only go to, to avoid the whining in the rest of the forum... one day, I may take the time to check them out... or not...


LOL! I'm guessing NOT!  No good "battles" for you over there.



mchips said:


> Your method of arguing is just to throw insults with the strongest words you can find... I simply find you pathetic, and feel sorry for you...


You're projecting again. Which words do you think are the strongest words I can find? 



mchips said:


>


----------



## HDTiVo

hi-nrg-joe said:


> ....why would you say that many of us "no longer" recommend Tivo to friends, etc...?? Tivo is still the front runner of PVR's and in my opinion will probably stay that way. Just because life-time went away, that is no reason not to recommend Tivo.


The problem is that part of recommending a product to someone involves price and terms. The loss of Lifetime takes away a significant selling point. The fine print on the other options is problematic, and makes it harder to recommend them than they otherwise should have been.

If you'd like to read a model for how the new marketing plan should have been implemented, read here: *A Better Plan*


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## HDTiVo

ZeoTiVo said:


> so anything happen while I was out ?


What were you doing out???


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## mchips

dgh said:


> LOL! I'm guessing NOT!  No good "battles" for you over there.


Again, so missing the point... you do like to egg people on, don't you...


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## dgh

dgh said:


> Which words do you think are the strongest words I can find?


That's exactly the answer I expected from you.


----------



## dgh

ZeoTiVo said:


> so anything happen while I was out ?


Welcome back! We trimmed some trees here.


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## mchips

dgh said:


> That's exactly the answer I expected from you.


I'll let you have the last word...


----------



## dgh

hi-nrg-joe said:


> ....why would you say that many of us "no longer" recommend Tivo to friends, etc...?? Tivo is still the front runner of PVR's and in my opinion will probably stay that way.
> 
> ...
> 
> Secondly, if you want your Lifetime to continue, then you would be smart to keep recommending Tivo to others so they can continue providing service to your lifetime boxes.


I try not to make recommendations to my friends based on my own self interest. It's hard sometimes, but that's what friends are for. If TiVo turns out to be a long-term mistake, I'd rather not have more friends (beyond the 14 now) potentially annoyed at me.

Is TiVo the front runner? Well I still like many things about mine, but the local cable DVR costs less per month, has no upfront cost, no commitment period, dual tuners with full digital cable/premium channel support (no IR blasters, no cable boxes.)

When TiVo's price was lower, I always used that price difference as a sales point (100% of the 14 TiVos I know of are lifetimed.) But now that TiVo costs more, the missing hardware features really stick out. The S3 should rectify the hardware issues but we have no idea of price or service plans on that. And I certainly wouldn't tell a friend now, to make a 1, 2, or 3 year commitment on an S2, with the S3 coming soon. It would be better financially to wait it out for a few months with the cheaper and commitment-free cable PVR if the S3 is what you want. Even as a long term TiVo fan (just a couple of weeks ago someone called me a TiVo cult member) I would just wait and see what the S3 looks like before committing to what TiVo has now. For a newbie who isn't used to TiVo and has no idea what makes the cable PVR "not a TiVo" the decision to lock in an S2 for 1-3 years is even more daunting.


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## timckelley

After reading the long argumetn between dgh and mchips, and seeing it fail to resolve, I thought I'd help out by acting as impartial judge, thus ending the argument.

dgh is hereby designated the winner of the argument.  You may rest now.


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## dgh

timckelley said:


> dgh is hereby designated the winner of the argument.  You may rest now.


Thanks, but now that my taxes are done, I no longer feel the need for the diversion anyway. Phew! (on both matters )


----------



## mchips

timckelley said:


> After reading the long argumetn between dgh and mchips, and seeing it fail to resolve, I thought I'd help out by acting as impartial judge, thus ending the argument.


Actually, it was already over... but thanks...

There's seldom an actual winner in an argument, just two losers... and the person who thinks he can take it upon himself to be the judge and declare a winner, to put an end to an argument that had already ended, probably the biggest loser of all...


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## jfh3

lajohn27 said:


> Facts?
> 
> [Text of great post removed]
> 
> John


Very nicely put.


----------



## JoEbY

Adam1115 said:


> I'm curious, the people calling up TiVo arguing about getting lifetime, did TiVo ask for any proof that you bought before the 15th? Could you buy today and argue that you bought it before the deadline? How would they know?


No, they did not ask for proof. Yet. Then again, Best Buy's receipt has the service number on it. Is there some communication, perhaps, between Best Buy and TiVo such that TiVo already had on record when the unit was purchased before I called?


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## jfh3

JoEbY said:


> Is there some communication, perhaps, between Best Buy and TiVo such that TiVo already had on record when the unit was purchased before I called?


That would make sense, since they have to have something similar in place for the 3/12/lifetime giftcard activations and what they did for people who activated lifetime at the store in the past.


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## hi-nrg-joe

dgh said:


> When TiVo's price was lower, I always used that price difference as a sales point (100% of the 14 TiVos I know of are lifetimed.) But now that TiVo costs more, the missing hardware features really stick out. The S3 should rectify the hardware issues but we have no idea of price or service plans on that. And I certainly wouldn't tell a friend now, to make a 1, 2, or 3 year commitment on an S2, with the S3 coming soon. It would be better financially to wait it out for a few months with the cheaper and commitment-free cable PVR if the S3 is what you want. Even as a long term TiVo fan (just a couple of weeks ago someone called me a TiVo cult member) I would just wait and see what the S3 looks like before committing to what TiVo has now. For a newbie who isn't used to TiVo and has no idea what makes the cable PVR "not a TiVo" the decision to lock in an S2 for 1-3 years is even more daunting.


I see your point and others in this heated debate over lifetime going away. My point was just simply if you are a Tivo fan, cult member, follower, etc, this change in lifetime shouldn't affect what you have already. Whether you decide to by another one because of the price change is your choice. If your cable company raises the service $5 next year, you will probably hate it, but stick with it.

Even though you mention the other cable companies PVRs benefits such as dual tuners, lower service cost, or whatever. It's still not the same. It's kind of like someone who likes BMWs. A Kia will get you from point A to point B, may have better gas milage, cost cheaper, comes with a stereo, and road side service, but it's not the same as a BMW. I just don't think that other PVRs come close to the quality, simplicity, and service that Tivo provides. To me that is worth being a Tivo supporter. :up:

I just believe that if you were a true Tivo fan from the start, you would still be one even after the ending of lifetime service.

By the way, I liked the Grilled Stuff Enchilada at Taco bell, but when it went away, I still went there and had lunch. I didn't make comments like "I hate Taco Bell. I'll never eat there again". It was more like "oh well..it was good while it lasted". Some things we like don't stick around forever...


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## HDTiVo

hi-nrg-joe said:


> My point was just simply if you are a Tivo fan, cult member, follower, etc, this change in lifetime shouldn't affect what you have already.


Bingo. You've put your finger on it. Some of us are not cult members or followers.

Now, if a person were coming new to TiVo, who's advice would serve them best?

1. The person who is intimately familiar with TiVo and offers realistic, independent advice, or

2. A cult member.

Hinit: The answer is the one before #2.


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## vman41

hi-nrg-joe said:


> By the way, I liked the Grilled Stuff Enchilada at Taco bell, but when it went away, I still went there and had lunch. I didn't make comments like "I hate Taco Bell. I'll never eat there again". It was more like "oh well..it was good while it lasted". Some things we like don't stick around forever...


OTOH, the only reason I went to Baja Fresh was for the great deal on their enchiladas. They took it off the menu and I stopped going.


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## dgh

hi-nrg-joe said:


> I see your point and others in this heated debate over lifetime going away. My point was just simply if you are a Tivo fan, cult member, follower, etc,


HDTiVo covered this, but I'll say it too: I've been an _accused_ of being a cult member. I even got a PM from TiVoPony once thanking me for defending TiVo but I told him that I just call them as I see them. Currently, I think TiVo is somewhat lacking on their existing platform, especially at the new prices.

I think they're especially vulnerable with new customers who have never owned a PVR and don't really grasp the benefits of a Season Pass Manager but can easily understand dual tuners and no separate cable box with an IR blaster. Now add that the TiVo that has dual tuners will be introduced before the commitment period of the TiVo that they can buy now expires and getting the commitment-free PVR (or just waiting) really does sound attractive.



hi-nrg-joe said:


> It's still not the same. It's kind of like someone who likes BMWs. A Kia will get you from point A to point B, may have better gas milage, cost cheaper, comes with a stereo, and road side service, but it's not the same as a BMW. I just don't think that other PVRs come close to the quality, simplicity, and service that Tivo provides. To me that is worth being a Tivo supporter. :up:


Well the Consumer Reports auto issue just arrived and some Kia's beat some BMWS on reliability and customer satisfaction. Hyundai beat BWM for reliability overall. However, my friends tend to drive Hondas, Acruas, Toyotas, Lexuses (Lexi??), and Subarus, all of which easily beat either of those two brands on reliability. There isn't a BWM owner in the bunch so maybe that sort of sales pitch wouldn't work on them anyway. I'm not sure that automobile type pitches work on video appliances anyway.



hi-nrg-joe said:


> I didn't make comments like "I hate Taco Bell. I'll never eat there again".


Well those are two very different comments. If a fast food joint raised it's prices by a factor of 4 or so, I wouldn't hate them, but there is a good chance that I would never eat there again or at least would greatly reduce my eating there. There are choices for fast food and price is a factor.


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## Brighton Line

So what should I do?
In my living room I have HDTV and I record a lot of stuff in HD so I have the cableco's DVR (SA8300HD) and pay $10 for it. In the bedroom on a small 20" regular TV I have a Humax DTR800 on the monthly plan.
While this year we can not afford to get HDTV in the bedroom we do plan to get one next year.
I still want to record in HD when I do upgrade though we currently use the Humax for the standard Tivo stuff like Wishlists and season pass. Matter of fact we use the Tivo guide for look up and then go back to the living room to record what we are looking for in HD. Yeah I guess I could do this on the TV but it is so simple and fast.

Needless to say I just found out about no more lifetime. Should I spend the time on the phone, and from the posts here I assume it will require lengthy time and multiple phone calls to upgrade, or do I wait and pay the monthly fee because I would rather take that $300 and put it towards Series 3.

Cablecard for me is $1.75 a month instead of $7.95 for the box but requires a one time "visit" by the tech for $40. 

So guessing at what the pricing for Series 3 would be and that I could get it within 12 months do I stay with the monthly plan?

Just don't know what to do.


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## HDTiVo

If you are the eBay type, buy Lifetime and resell the TiVo when you upgrade.

If not, pay $12.95/mo until you upgrade. Don't make any new commitments.


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## Budget_HT

Brighton Line said:


> So what should I do?
> In my living room I have HDTV and I record a lot of stuff in HD so I have the cableco's DVR (SA8300HD) and pay $10 for it. In the bedroom on a small 20" regular TV I have a Humax DTR800 on the monthly plan.
> While this year we can not afford to get HDTV in the bedroom we do plan to get one next year.
> I still want to record in HD when I do upgrade though we currently use the Humax for the standard Tivo stuff like Wishlists and season pass. Matter of fact we use the Tivo guide for look up and then go back to the living room to record what we are looking for in HD. Yeah I guess I could do this on the TV but it is so simple and fast.
> 
> Needless to say I just found out about no more lifetime. Should I spend the time on the phone, and from the posts here I assume it will require lengthy time and multiple phone calls to upgrade, or do I wait and pay the monthly fee because I would rather take that $300 and put it towards Series 3.
> 
> Cablecard for me is $1.75 a month instead of $7.95 for the box but requires a one time "visit" by the tech for $40.
> 
> So guessing at what the pricing for Series 3 would be and that I could get it within 12 months do I stay with the monthly plan?
> 
> Just don't know what to do.


Lifetime is still available for the Humax models with DVD recorder (is that what you have?). You could potentially convert the Humax to lifetime and then subscribe monthly with the S3 at $6.95 using the MSD.


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## Fraser+Dief

lajohn27 said:


> A corporation the size of TIVO wants to make a major price change. Do you start training the Best Buy drones a few weeks in advance? No. Why? A leak of new pricing policy early... some enterprising journalist at CNET.com wants a story and the next thing, it's big disaster.


Clue to Corporate America - If your new pricing policy will be a "disaster" when it's announced, maybe, just maybe, you should be putting your efforts into making a *good* policy, rather than hiding the disaster.


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## lajohn27

A leak of any pricing policy - even a good one - ahead of time can be a disaster.

Sheesh.

J


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## Fraser+Dief

lajohn27 said:


> Sheesh.


Sheesh yourself.

You're the one with the farfetched claim that this would have been a "disaster" should word have gotten out, and it's far better to have pathetic customer service instead.


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## lajohn27

Actually several times in my posting I concluded that I disagreed with the way this was handled while noting that it was standard industry practice. The disaster I was speaking about hypothetical at best. I didn't mean it as literally as you're taking it.

While I attempted to explain the corporate thinking behind hit, I made no such farfetched claim to believing this whatsoever.

Regardless, the heart of my message was not in the paragraphs and phrases you're picking apart. The heart of my message was that this could have been handled better but it might very well have been handled much worse. The point I was going for is that whenever a change with these wideranging implications is undertaken, it very rarely goes smoothly or quickly.

I'm not thrilled with any of these changes or with the way that Best Buy or the call center(s) are handling the fallout or the rest of it. Plus, I think getting rid of lifetime is a mistake. 

I understand the reasoning from a corporate perspective, I just happen to think it's wrong.

J


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## ggooden1

Ok so here's my story. I purchased a TiVo off of eBay back in February and I received it on March 3, that is also the same day that I activated it. I decided I should activate it with monthly service and if all goes well then I would upgrade to lifetime. I knew that they had a 30 day money back guarantee, but I still thought it would be safer to purchase a monthly subscription just in case the 30 day money back guarantee proved to be some complicated process. So today I finally decide to switch to lifetime service and then "Oh surprise, we don't offer lifetime anymore!". So I noticed that TiVo does have an exception that if your box was purchased before March 14 then I have until April 15 to activate lifetime service. But I'm wondering if this covers existing subscribers. I understand it said "Existing subscribers cannot purchase lifetime" but then it also said "New subscribers cannot purchase lifetime" until it talked about the exception. I really hope it does include existing subscribers because I had every intention to switch to lifetime service and I'm really speechless at the fact that I may not get to do lifetime at all. I'm going to call TiVo tomorrow morning and tell them that I have been using their service for less than a month and am already wanting to switch my service to lifetime and then see what they say. If they don't let me do that then I will be extremely angry seeing as this just had to happen in time to prevent me from subscribing to lifetime. I'm really going to have to plead with them tomorrow.


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## dtreese

Don't plead. Demand. It's crap if they don't let you. If one CSR doesn't let you, call again & ask to cancel. Tell them to give you lifetime or take the unit back. You're still under the money-back guarantee period & they changed the terms during that time. They didn't exactly make a good faith effort to inform you of the change, did they?


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## ggooden1

You know what you're absolutely right dtreese. I won't take any crap from them tomorrow. The only thing is is that if I were to call and cancel and that whole process then they would probably make a comment on my account (under my tivo service number) saying that the box was once cancelled. Also I'm a Canadian resident and it's already hard enough for us to get our hands on TiVo. This was a really stupid move on TiVo's end because they aren't going to make more money, people are going to be fed up with the new pricing options and in about three years TiVo will probably be bankrupt anyways.


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## dtreese

Well, apparently the CSR's who deal with cancellations have a better understanding of the current policies and have gotten lifetime to a few people here on the forums. Whatever you want to do is obviously up to you, but if I were a new customer rather than one with two lifetime units (or even if I had recently purchased another unit), I would not be willing to deal with this kind of customer disservice SNAFU. As it is, I will think long and hard and look at service terms veeeery carefully before I give TiVo any more business.

I'm just suggesting that if TiVo can't get its customer service ducks in a row and make good on the promises of its corporate officers, you may not want to enter into a relationship with them. I was fine with the service switch announcement last week, but I am not fine with the way TiVo has been treating folks this week. It's sad to see the direction they're taking in that aspect of the business.


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## hi-nrg-joe

dtreese said:


> Don't plead. Demand. It's crap if they don't let you. If one CSR doesn't let you, call again & ask to cancel. Tell them to give you lifetime or take the unit back. You're still under the money-back guarantee period & they changed the terms during that time. They didn't exactly make a good faith effort to inform you of the change, did they?


Demand what....what does Tivo owe him? He bought a used Tivo on eBay and choose to pay monthly. They announced that lifetime was going away and he choose to wait until after the last day to make his decision. He should simply call CS and ask. If they do it...cool, if not, there should be no demanding, complaining, crying, or whatever. As for threatening that he will take the unit back...I don't think that will happen(unless the ebay seller accepts returns). If he wants to buy a tivo with lifetime, he can always try ebay again.


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## ggooden1

You're correct in the fact that I don't really have the right to demand anything, but the point is is that they made no considerable effort to announce that they were getting rid of their lifetime service. They should have sent a message to my tivo box if they wanted to make good use of their messages feature for once, rather than just using it to inform customers of stuff they don't care about.


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## ggooden1

Oh and by the way, the Tivo was not purchased used. It was brand new in the box.


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## dtreese

Ah, I missed the ebay part. That's a little different than buying a new retail unit. I still think that accodring to what we've been told previously, they should. TiVoOpsMgr states that if you have a non-bundled unit purchased before 3/16, you can activate lifetime until 4/15. That's pretty cut & dried to me.


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## Redscott

ggooden1 said:


> You're correct in the fact that I don't really have the right to demand anything, but the point is is that they made no considerable effort to announce that they were getting rid of their lifetime service. They should have sent a message to my tivo box if they wanted to make good use of their messages feature for once, rather than just using it to inform customers of stuff they don't care about.


agreed


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## ggooden1

Well it's good that some people here agree with me. Considering that I'm still within the 30 day trial period, I think they should let me pay for the lifetime service. Anyways, if I call customer service and don't like the answer I get, I'll definitely try calling more than once. Then again, I could always try explaining that just the other day I was going to upgrade to lifetime service but since they ended that I've decided to just cancel instead, unless there's anyway possible that I could still buy lifetime service. Then see if that will make them give it to me. I really don't think these new pricing options are going to benefit them at all, it will just make them an easy competitor.


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## hi-nrg-joe

dtreese...regarding the quote from TiVoOpsMgr stating that if you have a non-bundled unit purchased before 3/16, you can activate lifetime until 4/15. I recall seeing that somewhere in earlier posts, but are you sure he was talking about ANY box purchased before 3/16 or just boxes bought on tivo.com before 3/16 and not delivered to the end customer yet? The reason I ask is.... if it is any box, then the anyone from the last 6 years could potenially get lifetime still, right? I thought that statment was made because some people purchased refurb boxes and then the announcement came out. Those who hadn't received their boxes were worried that they would not get it in time to activate lifetime.

ggooden1...I do agree that Tivo should have made the announcement a little more widespread and I also think you may have a good chance at getting lifetime for your box since it is still within the 30 day trial period. You just might have to get a little creative with the excuse, but I'm pretty sure they'll do it. As for the pricing structure..at first it sounded expensive and like a bad idea(that's because I'm used to lifetime), but after awhile it made sense. Why not let new people come in at $20/month including the box for the 1st year. No more $200 up front and then $13/month. It's a good start for those who could never afford to get in before. And if they liked the service they could continue for $13.95/month after the contract is up.


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## dtreese

hi-nrg-joe:

I don't know whether or not that's what they meant, but that's what TiVoOpsMgr has communicated, and that's what TiVo should therefore honor. It's not like this grace period would grandfather old units in forever -- my understanding was that the grace period was meant to give longtime customers time to react to the change in service. If TiVo miscommunicated, they should stick with what they told us rather than what they were thinking. They kind of painted themselves into a corner by making the announcement 1 week before it happened -- they gave themselves very little time to make themselves clear.


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## murph1016

Then why not offer both options for those that already have boxes? Give something back to the loyal subscribers that have been their for a while. Especially those that had once bought a series 1. 

I understand that they believe this new pricing policy is what the customers want. I can assure you, that as a loyal Tivo owner, I am NOT satisfied. How about some sort of grandfather clause. The only thing this is better for is for TIVO, not the end user. If it's not better for Tivo, they wouldn't have done it. I would have gladly paid $800 or more for a series 3, if I could get the lifetime for $299. Now, without the option for a lifetime subscription, I will not even upgrade.

My days of promoting are over.

Former tivotee and advocate.


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## dtreese

Yeah, I didn't really bite on the "good for customers" line, but I understood that they need to do what's good for TiVo. I really don't like what I'm hearing about customer service, though. When you're a CSR for a company that's just changed their policy, you need to be ready to deal with the poopstorm that will follow -- it comes with the job. It doesn't give you license to be an ass.


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## Y-ASK

hi-nrg-joe said:


> dtreese...regarding the quote from TiVoOpsMgr stating that if you have a non-bundled unit purchased before 3/16, you can activate lifetime until 4/15. I recall seeing that somewhere in earlier posts, but are you sure he was talking about ANY box purchased before 3/16 or just boxes bought on tivo.com before 3/16 and not delivered to the end customer yet? The reason I ask is....


Just for the record in my situation. Purchased a Toshiba RS-TX20 last summer and have been using Tivo Basic ever since the purchase. I thought that one day I might opt in for Lifetime but for now Basic was fine for what I use it for. Been pretty busy at work for the last couple of months and don't get spend as much time as I would like on the forum. Saw this info. about Tivo Lifetime late last week (Thursday). Decided to call last Friday (3/19) in order to purchase Lifetime. The CSR Rep. noticed that I had two seperate accounts and multiple lifetime Tivos which was correct. She opened a case to combine the two and opened another case for the lifetime request. Got transferred to another CSR who took my credit card info. for the lifetime and then told me it would not be until next (now this week) when I would see the changes made to my account. Still waiting for Lifetime on my RS-TX20 to show up but then it's still early in the week.

So there's my story and I'm sticken to it!

Y-ASK


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## Shawn95GT

I'd e-mail TivOpsMrg and if you are indeed qualified I'm sure he can help you out.

I paid for 2-day shipping on my referb just so I wouldn't have to deal with this. That was the best $17 I've spent in a while!

Good luck on gett'n lifetime.


----------



## ggooden1

Ok here's an update. I just got off the phone with Tivo and the lady I spoke to was very helpful. I explained to her that I'm a relatively new Tivo subscriber, have been using it for less than a month and was wondering if it's still possible for me to switch to lifetime service. She said that the exception to the new pricing rules DOES cover me. She had to put me on hold and make a phone call to a higher department, and then she put something into her computer that is supposed to upgrade me to lifetime service within the next few days. From the sounds of things they are even going to refund the $12.95 that I payed for the first month since I'm still within the trial period. I told her that I was surprised that it was going to work and I let her know that I've heard from a lot of other Tivo customers that they have been trying to contact customer service about getting lifetime service, and that the service reps seem to be unaware of the exception. She was surprised to hear this because she said that they have a big notice up in the office explaining who still qualifies for lifetime service. Of course it sounds like I still have to wait for the transaction to be finalized but at this point I don't think they have any right to tell me that the customer service representative I spoke to was wrong and that I'm not getting lifetime service. Besides, she didn't seem to have any doubt that it was going to work. So this is all quite relieving.


----------



## dtreese

:up: :up: :up: 

So it sounds like just a few crappy CSR's need to be smacked down and made to understand the situation. Here's hoping that happens.


----------



## mchips

dtreese said:


> :up: :up: :up:
> 
> So it sounds like just a few crappy CSR's need to be smacked down and made to understand the situation. Here's hoping that happens.


Although I may not have used the word "crappy" myself, this is actually typical of just about any CSR...

Anytime there's a people-quotient involved, perfection cannot be obtained. As with anything, some people will get and understand new policies immediately, while others take longer, for a multitude of reasons, no matter how much management may have drilled it into their staff.

I can call just about any company's CS dept., speak with 3 or 4 different CSR's and get 3 or 4 different answers.

An approach that has been successful for me, is instead of trying to change that company to suit me, which more than likely is not going to happen, I change myself to make the most out of that company instead. I could just switch to a company's competitor; and I have done that, only to get the same level of CS from them. That is, sometimes I get the best CS ever from a CSR, and other times it's like the worst ever, and at the same company. I switch again, and again, only to end up back at the same company I started out with.

Depending on the issue, and what I may or may not know to be true, I will call and speak with more than one rep... and on occasion, ask to speak with a supervisor. I don't do this with every call, or it's like the boy who cried wolf, and instead of being taken seriously, the CSR's will be like, "oh boy, look who's calling again, I wonder what he's calling to complain about this time." They're people, too. I use an approach an old mentor of mine passed onto me, and to quote him, "come out with kid gloves first, and then bring out the baseball bat when needed... but use it sparingly... if you always come out swinging, it loses its effectiveness... I generally don't even have to swing it anymore... I just have to show it..."

While people in this thread reported negative experiences with TiVo's CSR on this issue, others also posted positive experiences. And as customer surveys have shown, people are much more vocal when having a negative experience than they are when they have a positive experience. So for every negative experience reported, there are many more positive experiences that go unreported.

My personal experience with TiVo has been exemplary, and I've found them to be a very upstanding company... perfect, no, but above par, I feel yes...

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem."
~ Theodore Isaac Rubin (1923- )


----------



## hi-nrg-joe

ggooden1 said:


> Ok here's an update. I just got off the phone with Tivo and the lady I spoke to was very helpful. I explained to her that I'm a relatively new Tivo subscriber, have been using it for less than a month and was wondering if it's still possible for me to switch to lifetime service. She said that the exception to the new pricing rules DOES cover me. She had to put me on hold and make a phone call to a higher department, and then she put something into her computer that is supposed to upgrade me to lifetime service within the next few days. From the sounds of things they are even going to refund the $12.95 that I payed for the first month since I'm still within the trial period. I told her that I was surprised that it was going to work and I let her know that I've heard from a lot of other Tivo customers that they have been trying to contact customer service about getting lifetime service, and that the service reps seem to be unaware of the exception. She was surprised to hear this because she said that they have a big notice up in the office explaining who still qualifies for lifetime service. Of course it sounds like I still have to wait for the transaction to be finalized but at this point I don't think they have any right to tell me that the customer service representative I spoke to was wrong and that I'm not getting lifetime service. Besides, she didn't seem to have any doubt that it was going to work. So this is all quite relieving.


Soo....just curious...does this still mean you're a Tivo supporter? Now that your a lifer, I would hope that you support Tivo's success in order to keep your lifetime subscription working. I could guess what your answer would have been if they didn't help you....


----------



## timckelley

hi-nrg-joe said:


> Soo....just curious...does this still mean you're a Tivo supporter? Now that your a lifer, I would hope that you support Tivo's success in order to keep your lifetime subscription working. I could guess what your answer would have been if they didn't help you....


I disagree with that logic. If TiVo goes under, they'll get bought out, and mostly our service will continue.


----------



## HDTiVo

hi-nrg-joe said:


> Soo....just curious...does this still mean you're a Tivo supporter?


Please define "not a TiVo supporter."


----------



## TiVoPony

A few people here have reported that when they called to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service they were told that wasn't possible anymore. We appreciate the feedback and apologize if some of our agents are providing inaccurate information. 

We know that there have been retail advertisements which refer to product lifetime, and there have been requests here for a longer opportunity to purchase lifetime before it's discontinued. As a result, we have decided to offer product lifetime as a subscription option through 4/15/06, even for those that have purchased since 3/15 (you do have to call to activate lifetime service though, and lifetime is not applicable for systems purchased via a bundle plan). 

Our customer service team is being updated today, so please wait until later today or tomorrow and call back once the message has been delivered to all the agents.

Cheers,
Pony


----------



## Dan203

Much simpler solution! :up:

Dan


----------



## tonyonlinux

STILL BEING TOLD I HAVE TO BUY IT BETWEEN FEB AND MARCH BY SUPERVISOR. What gives? When will everyone understand that WE CAN upgrade to lifetime?
Will calling the 408 corporate office help or will we get the run around and be told to call customer service again?



TiVoPony said:


> A few people here have reported that when they called to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service they were told that wasn't possible anymore. We appreciate the feedback and apologize if some of our agents are providing inaccurate information.
> 
> We know that there have been retail advertisements which refer to product lifetime, and there have been requests here for a longer opportunity to purchase lifetime before it's discontinued. As a result, we have decided to offer product lifetime as a subscription option through 4/15/06, even for those that have purchased since 3/15 (you do have to call to activate lifetime service though, and lifetime is not applicable for systems purchased via a bundle plan).
> 
> Our customer service team is being updated today, so please wait until later today or tomorrow and call back once the message has been delivered to all the agents.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


----------



## tazzftw

Try waiting a few days. It's not like it has to be done today.


----------



## TriBruin

tonyonlinux said:


> STILL BEING TOLD I HAVE TO BUY IT BETWEEN FEB AND MARCH BY SUPERVISOR. What gives? When will everyone understand that WE CAN upgrade to lifetime?
> Will calling the 408 corporate office help or will we get the run around and be told to call customer service again?


In the quote from TivoPony he asked us to wait until later today or TOMORROW before calling the CSRs. Can you wait at least more than two hours? You have almost a month to call. Give Tivo a chance to get the rihgt information out to their CSRs.


----------



## timckelley

So this includes TiVos that have previously been subscribed as monthly? Not just recently bought units, but old ones too? In other words, a no holds barred lifetime upgrade for everybody who wants to do it through 4/15/06?

Edit: I see this was answered in another thread. It seems that it's true, a general no holds barred upgrade period, except for bundled units.


----------



## kevinarth

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> Thanks for saying that -- you're absolutely correct -- six months of intense research, including numerous separate pricing trials.
> 
> I can see why people are reacting to Product Lifetime going away. I'm going to quote TiVo CEO Tom Rogers (as he addresses the company right now at our post-earnings meeting):
> 
> Many here already have stated that they knew Product Lifetime would go away at some point. It made sense to us after testing these options that were VERY well received to make that time now. I'm very sorry for those who are upset, but we tried to give you a lot of new and attractive pricing options to make up for it.
> 
> And of course, if you already purchased Product Lifetime, we will of course continue to honor it. And if you haven't purchased Product Lifetime, you have until next Wednesday!
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephen


I'm new to tivo and I apologize if this is inappropriate at this point, but I went with the monthly plan for the first month while I worked out technical issues with the service and box. Now that (most of) the bugs have been worked out, I discover these forums and learn that I've missed the window to buy lifetime. I'm responding to a 3.8.06 post, so i may have missed some new developments, but I'm pretty disappointed that I cant' upgrade my service. You guys are all in-the-know her in the forums, but that doesn't help us new guys who are struggling just to get the box working, let alone have the time to scan these posts for details like this. I think this could have been better communicated to new subscribers. I'm pretty much up a creek at this point and am not pleased.


----------



## OldTownTreadles

kevinarth said:


> I'm new to tivo and I apologize if this is inappropriate at this point, but I went with the monthly plan for the first month while I worked out technical issues with the service and box. Now that (most of) the bugs have been worked out, I discover these forums and learn that I've missed the window to buy lifetime. I'm responding to a 3.8.06 post, so i may have missed some new developments, but I'm pretty disappointed that I cant' upgrade my service. You guys are all in-the-know her in the forums, but that doesn't help us new guys who are struggling just to get the box working, let alone have the time to scan these posts for details like this. I think this could have been better communicated to new subscribers. I'm pretty much up a creek at this point and am not pleased.


It's possible I'm wrong, but I believe I read a post that was written today by TivoPony stating that you can still purchase lifetime through some date in April. It's in this thread, you might want to check around or maybe someone will come and point it out to you. You do, however, have to go use the phone, call the toll free number, and ask the CSR there.

I don't know your specific situation, but I upgraded a tivo that I ordered on 3/12 and that arrived 3/20, early this morning. I was pretty upset because instead of applying my year long sub, which was offered as an alternative to a rebate, they charged full price for the lifetime and then are going to refund the price of the 12 month Tivo gift sub. Yes, I know it boils down to the same thing, except that the charge back takes any number of days, that upset me. But the important thing for you to note is that today I was able to get a lifetime sub. (I knew I wanted one because I've got another Tivo with one, and am convinced that Tivo is the way to go.)

Anyhow, give it a try. The worst thing that happens will be that you spend some time listening to their elevator music while on hold. TivoPony advises waiting a few days till the CSRs are acclimated to this (but I suggest you don't wait much longer than that.)


----------



## kevinarth

OldTownTreadles said:


> It's possible I'm wrong, but I believe I read a post that was written today by TivoPony stating that you can still purchase lifetime through some date in April...
> 
> Anyhow, give it a try. The worst thing that happens will be that you spend some time listening to their elevator music while on hold. TivoPony advises waiting a few days till the CSRs are acclimated to this (but I suggest you don't wait much longer than that.)


Yeah, I just saw that. I just found this forum yesterday and have been trying to wade through the history of this problem. I was just going out to my post to edit when I saw your reply. thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

TiVoPony said:


> A few people here have reported that when they called to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service they were told that wasn't possible anymore. We appreciate the feedback and apologize if some of our agents are providing inaccurate information.
> 
> We know that there have been retail advertisements which refer to product lifetime, and there have been requests here for a longer opportunity to purchase lifetime before it's discontinued. As a result, we have decided to offer product lifetime as a subscription option through 4/15/06, even for those that have purchased since 3/15 (you do have to call to activate lifetime service though, and lifetime is not applicable for systems purchased via a bundle plan).
> 
> Our customer service team is being updated today, so please wait until later today or tomorrow and call back once the message has been delivered to all the agents.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Wow. Very nice of TiVo to do this.


----------



## jfh3

TiVoPony said:


> A few people here have reported that when they called to upgrade to Product Lifetime Service they were told that wasn't possible anymore. We appreciate the feedback and apologize if some of our agents are providing inaccurate information.
> 
> We know that there have been retail advertisements which refer to product lifetime, and there have been requests here for a longer opportunity to purchase lifetime before it's discontinued. As a result, we have decided to offer product lifetime as a subscription option through 4/15/06, even for those that have purchased since 3/15 (you do have to call to activate lifetime service though, and lifetime is not applicable for systems purchased via a bundle plan).
> 
> Our customer service team is being updated today, so please wait until later today or tomorrow and call back once the message has been delivered to all the agents.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pony


Another example of how Tivo always seems to end up doing the right thing for its' customers.

(Now if you guys could just get the "kick ass" marketing campaign put together ...  )


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## johnd7

It has been so long since I purchased a lifetime...what are they charging for us to upgrade to Lifetime right now? Also, since most of us around here have multiple Tivos, depending on the cost of lifetime, isn't 6.95 possibly a better deal?

I have a series 2 on lifetime and a second at 6.95. How much are they going to charge me to make that second one lifetime? Do I really want to do that if I am going to get a S3 anyway? I can just buy an S3 and pay 6.95 for that as well. I guess the only reason to upgrade to lifetime on my second S2 would be to sell it, but why take the chance and hassle of that.


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## ThreeSoFar

johnd7 said:


> It has been so long since I purchased a lifetime...what are they charging for us to upgrade to Lifetime right now? Also, since most of us around here have multiple Tivos, depending on the cost of lifetime, isn't 6.95 possibly a better deal?
> 
> I have a series 2 on lifetime and a second at 6.95. How much are they going to charge me to make that second one lifetime? Do I really want to do that if I am going to get a S3 anyway? I can just buy an S3 and pay 6.95 for that as well. I guess the only reason to upgrade to lifetime on my second S2 would be to sell it, but why take the chance and hassle of that.


$299 if you still can. See the sticky threads.


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## HDTiVo

Shame on all of you who are praying upon poor TiVo in its desperate hour of need by buying Lifetime which you forced TiVo into extending the availability of beyond the time it wanted to.

Don't you realize you are hastening the demise of the very entity which sustains the life of your TiVo DVR by purchasing this money losing service plan? You are like an angry mob, ripping at the flesh of your only hope. Once TiVo "goes belly up" from your selfish behaviors, all of us will be lost, yourselves included.


----------



## jimbocobb

HDTiVo said:


> Shame on all of you who are praying upon poor TiVo in its desperate hour of need by buying Lifetime which you forced TiVo into extending the availability of beyond the time it wanted to.
> 
> Don't you realize you are hastening the demise of the very entity which sustains the life of your TiVo DVR by purchasing this money losing service plan? You are like an angry mob, ripping at the flesh of your only hope. Once TiVo "goes belly up" from your selfish behaviors, all of us will be lost, yourselves included.


But the EBAY PROFITS will still remain !!


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## dstoffa

HDTiVo said:


> Don't you realize you are hastening the demise of the very entity which sustains the life of your TiVo DVR by purchasing this money losing service plan? You are like an angry mob, ripping at the flesh of your only hope. Once TiVo "goes belly up" from your selfish behaviors, all of us will be lost, yourselves included.


Once Tivo rids itself of R&D, and just sells guide service, they will find it easier to make a profit.

If Tivo is going to make money going forward, it will need to be able to recoup all the R&D and programming costs associated with introducing new product. If they simply stopped spending money on developing new product, and just delivered guide data, they'd see the money pouring in with whatever monthly subs are out there.

Is it the right thing to do? From a shareholders point of view, yes. Make money.

From a consumer's / fan's point of view? No.

Who will win that battle?


----------



## jimbocobb

dstoffa said:


> Once Tivo rids itself of R&D, and just sells guide service, they will find it easier to make a profit.
> 
> If Tivo is going to make money going forward, it will need to be able to recoup all the R&D and programming costs associated with introducing new product. If they simply stopped spending money on developing new product, and just delivered guide data, they'd see the money pouring in with whatever monthly subs are out there.
> 
> Is it the right thing to do? From a shareholders point of view, yes. Make money.
> 
> From a consumer's / fan's point of view? No.
> 
> Who will win that battle?


Stopping R&D, new product development, etc, in this industry would be like cutting your own throat. Yes you might be profitable for a few years but you would be guaranteeing your whole company would be obsolete in a few more...that would not make sense to shareholders or anyone else.


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## dstoffa

jimbocobb said:


> Stopping R&D, new product development, etc, in this industry would be like cutting your own throat. Yes you might be profitable for a few years but you would be guaranteeing your whole company would be obsolete in a few more...that would not make sense to shareholders or anyone else.


Well, if you will NEVER make a profit by continuing the spend on R&D, then which is the correct choice? I think you will see Series 3 priced at a point where Tivo will be able to recoup their R&D.

Tivo has committed themselves to R&D. They are promising Series 3. I assume they will be spending money on R&D for Series 4. In order to recoup those R&D dollars, they eliminated Lifetime subs, so that every box sold from here on out will always be bringing in revenue.

If you are a shareholder, you want to make money. If you are on the board of directors, it is your responsibility to make money for the stockhodlers. Tivo is hoping that by eliminating lifetime, they can make money. If they don't see the black with Series 3, in my opinion they are dead in the water.

I posted this in another thread. It's from the film "Other People's Money":
"You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies making buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best goddamn buggy whip you ever saw. Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company? You invested in a business and this business is dead. Lets have the intelligence, lets have the DECENCY to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future. "

If Tivo can't make it into the black with Series 3, consider the stand-alone DVR market the next buggy-whip.


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## timckelley

I predict that unless a message is put on the TiVo boxes informing people of the change, there are still going to be a lot of people not getting the news until after April 15th, and then they'll be registering here at TCF to gripe about the loss of lifetime. Some of them will be on a one year pre-paid subscription for a TiVo they bought less than a year ago, and they'll say they had intended to upgrade to lifetime before their one year is up.


I'm not saying TiVo *needs* to put this message on everbody's boxes because maybe they don't want to give away too many money-losing lifetimes. I'm just saying I think there are still going to be complainers.


----------



## HDTiVo

timckelley said:


> I predict that unless a message is put on the TiVo boxes informing people of the change, there are still going to be a lot of people not getting the news until after April 15th, and then they'll be registering here at TCF to gripe about the loss of lifetime. Some of them will be on a one year pre-paid subscription for a TiVo they bought less than a year ago, and they'll say they had intended to upgrade to lifetime before their one year is up.
> 
> I'm not saying TiVo *needs* to put this message on everbody's boxes because maybe they don't want to give away too many money-losing lifetimes. I'm just saying I think there are still going to be complainers.


How 'bout some adventurous sole writing an HME app for apps.tv that shows the message about Lifetime?


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## Stylin

timckelley said:


> I predict that unless a message is put on the TiVo boxes informing people of the change, there are still going to be a lot of people not getting the news until after April 15th, and then they'll be registering here at TCF to gripe about the loss of lifetime. Some of them will be on a one year pre-paid subscription for a TiVo they bought less than a year ago, and they'll say they had intended to upgrade to lifetime before their one year is up.
> I'm not saying TiVo *needs* to put this message on everbody's boxes because maybe they don't want to give away too many money-losing lifetimes. I'm just saying I think there are still going to be complainers.


Yes TiVo *NEEDS* to put a message on everyone's box. They need to set a firm deadline date, post a message to all boxes and move on to the new pricing plan. That would settle all gripes and complaints.


----------



## TiVoEvan74

Good to hear and good company reaction! Thanks TiVoPony.


----------



## Y-ASK

Update on my adventure, Tivo just sent me an E-Mail letting me know that my accounts with Tivo have been merged. Sure enough all three lifetime Tivo's are there. Very Cool! Now that was case number one. Waiting on case number two; the purchase of Lifetime on my RS-TX20. Hopefully that will show up some time today as well. 

So far Tivo support has been a pleasant experience... 

Y-ASK


----------



## Sirshagg

Stylin said:


> Yes TiVo *NEEDS* to put a message on everyone's box. They need to set a firm deadline date, post a message to all boxes and move on to the new pricing plan. That would settle all gripes and complaints.


 :up: :up: :up:


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## PMPTHATROX

I called Tivo and they said they would put me on a list and call me in a week. I guess you have until March 31st to get the box at Bestbuy or somewhere and then until April 15 to convert to lifetime. I called twice. The first guy was an ass and basically hung up on me and wouldnt answer any of my questions and the second time I called the lady was nice and explained how it works to me.


----------



## johnd7

ThreeSoFar said:


> $299 if you still can. See the sticky threads.


So if I am only paying 6.95 for my second Tivo, why should I think about lifetime...that is 43 months before it even starts to be worth it.


----------



## Blurayfan

johnd7 said:


> So if I am only paying 6.95 for my second Tivo, why should I think about lifetime...that is 43 months before it even starts to be worth it.


You should recoup your cost in under 43 months. Also resale value is greater for a lifetime unit.

$12.95/month first unit
$6.95/month each additional DVR
------------------------------
$12.95/month ($299 for 1 will be recouped in 23 months).
$19.90/month ($598 for 2 will be recouped in 30 months).
$26.85/month ($897 for 3 will be recouped in 33 months).


----------



## TiVoEvan74

Lots of reasons for going lifetime. 

If you plan on keeping it a fairly long time, or 

if you anticipate that the monthly $6.95 cost will go up (and in states with taxing it can be more like $7.51 even now), or 

if you'd rather not simply "give away" money (in two years, even at the current low rate, you would have "given away" $168-180 with no permanent benefit; three years even more!), or 

if you plan, down the road, to pass it along to a family member or give it as a gift to someone (and want them to have NO payment associated with the gift), or 

you anticipate that you will recover much of the $300 when you sell it because it has lifetime on it, or 

you are concerned that it won't be worth much on resale at all without lifetime, etc.


----------



## NewYorkLaw

johnd7 said:


> So if I am only paying 6.95 for my second Tivo, why should I think about lifetime...that is 43 months before it even starts to be worth it.


Let's say, after 2 years you want to sell the tivo (to upgrade to series 3 or 4, perhaps). What will it be worth? On the monthly plan, the unit will be worth nothing and you'll have paid-out $168. With the lifetime on it, you'll get at least $300. Check ebay for evidence that the lifetime units *never * sell for less than $300.

If you do not expect to ever sell the unit and are going to hold onto it until it dies, the odds are it will last long enough to pay for itself.

Pete


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVoOpsMgr said:


> HDTiVo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude:
> 
> How 'bout lettin' folks get a $155.40 refurb or a $224 new (1yr) and ADD $299 for Lifetime on top? Think on it a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll propose that to the marketing team, but I don't think this is likely to happen, sorry.
Click to expand...

Can't ask for more than that from ya. Just be sure NOT to tell 'em where the suggestion came from.


----------



## Rottluver

johnd7 said:


> So if I am only paying 6.95 for my second Tivo, why should I think about lifetime...that is 43 months before it even starts to be worth it.


Well, I bought my series 1 Tivo back in early 2001 and it is still going strong....with lifetime. So far, if I was paying monthly, it would have cost me over $400 (and counting every month) but I only paid $299 for LifeTime. Sounds like a win-win to me. That and I have added 2 more Tivos to my household since 2001 and they are all lifetimed as well*. 

And since they are with DirecTV I didn't have to pay extra for either box to be lifetimed, so I am REALLY saving now.


----------



## HDTiVo

c3 said:


> That's the same as selling lifetime for $454.40. Not going to happen.


Well, actually $523 on an equivalent new box comparison, vs $469 for 3 yrs.

Its not such a bad idea; these boxes are not going to last as long as the previous ones anyway now that it is 2006 and analog is on the decline...


----------



## ggooden1

PMPTHATROX said:


> I called Tivo and they said they would put me on a list and call me in a week. I guess you have until March 31st to get the box at Bestbuy or somewhere and then until April 15 to convert to lifetime. I called twice. The first guy was an ass and basically hung up on me and wouldnt answer any of my questions and the second time I called the lady was nice and explained how it works to me.


Oh ok, so that means that they have a waiting list for current monthly subscribers to switch to lifetime? I kind of wondered if that was the case because when I log into www.tivo.com my payment plan still says "TiVo Monthly Service". I did however call Tivo again yesterday and the representative told me that in their computer it says that I am a lifetime subscriber and that maybe the information hasn't been transmitted over their internet servers yet. Well at the present time, the tivo website is still labelling me as a monthly subscriber, but I trust it will be updated soon. I just hope that I won't get billed for another month before it gets updated.


----------



## HDTiVo

ggooden1 said:


> I just hope that I won't get billed for another month before it gets updated.


Another little problem TiVo will have to clean up for some.


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## timckelley

I didn't realize this was a possibility. I switched to Lifetime online just before they removed this as an online feature. I'll have to keep an eye on my credit card statements to make sure they don't charge me another monthly fee.


----------



## ggooden1

timckelley said:


> I didn't realize this was a possibility. I switched to Lifetime online just before they removed this as an online feature. I'll have to keep an eye on my credit card statements to make sure they don't charge me another monthly fee.


I think you'll probably be fine if you did it online. If you look at the overview of your account on www.tivo.com does your payment plan now say "Lifetime Service" or something? If it does then you should be fine. I think that I'll be fine as well because now that I think it over, in Tivo's computers at their headquarters it says that I am a lifetime subscriber. So I think it's just that it isn't showing up on my account on www.tivo.com yet. So I'll probably be fine but I'll monitor it until it gets adjusted, just to be safe.


----------



## timckelley

Yes, it indeed says "Lifetime Service".

Under settings, my series 2 says "Transfers allowed", but my series 1 says "N/A". I'm guess they're simply referring to the lack of HMO on series 1.


----------



## NewYorkLaw

DrStrange said:


> Seriously. Why would anyone be "happy" paying more than they're required to in exchange for nothing? If they continue to pay it it's an oversight on their part and it's just underhanded for Tivo to take advantage of that.


This is akin to what my supermarket does. They have "sale" prices marked on their shelves, but when I get to the register if I forget to give them my "club card" they don't give me the sale prices.

Apparently, a lot of customers don't remember to ask for (or don't care about) the savings and they must make a lot of extra money each year on those people.

I don' t like it, but is it unfair?

Pete


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## dgh

NewYorkLaw said:


> I don' t like it, but is it unfair?


I don't know the answer to the "unfair" question, but I no longer shop at a grocery store that does that. The two grocery stores that I now use either: ask for the card upfront, or don't have a card. Unfair? I dunno. Slimy? Yeah, I felt slimed, so I moved on.


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## dstoffa

dgh said:


> I don't know the answer to the "unfair" question, but I no longer shop at a grocery store that does that. The two grocery stores that I now use either: ask for the card upfront, or don't have a card. Unfair? I dunno. Slimy? Yeah, I felt slimed, so I moved on.


The whole Club Card fisaco is in place so Madison Avenue can track your spending habits and sell it to marketers. They are able to track what "Sale" items bring you into the store. They can tie in front page circular ad advertising rates to proven quantity sales based on the data taken from the card scans. This marketing data is valuable.

Seem familiar?


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## Sirshagg

dstoffa said:


> The whole Club Card fisaco is in place so Madison Avenue can track your spending habits and sell it to marketers. They are able to track what "Sale" items bring you into the store. They can tie in front page circular ad advertising rates to proven quantity sales based on the data taken from the card scans. This marketing data is valuable.
> 
> Seem familiar?


Good luck tracking my purchases - i never give these stores my real info.


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## dgh

dstoffa said:


> Seem familiar?


Yep - I do swap cards though and none of them have been tied to my address, so they don't know quite as much about me personally as TiVo knows. 

I guess some stores have picked up on that because some of the new cards mail rewards to you making them worthless without your address. I avoid those stores.


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## Rottluver

Sirshagg said:


> Good luck tracking my purchases - i never give these stores my real info.


How does that stop them from seeing what you buy though? Has nothing to do with where you list your address.....it is all about marketing and seeing what items sell the most so they can use those on the front pages of their flyers/ads/etc.


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## NewYorkLaw

Rottluver said:


> How does that stop them from seeing what you buy though? Has nothing to do with where you list your address.....it is all about marketing and seeing what items sell the most so they can use those on the front pages of their flyers/ads/etc.


Not giving them accurate info would at least prevent them from knowing your age, sex, race, income, and whether you buy or rent.

Pete


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## aindik

Rottluver said:


> How does that stop them from seeing what you buy though? Has nothing to do with where you list your address.....it is all about marketing and seeing what items sell the most so they can use those on the front pages of their flyers/ads/etc.


They've always known what they sell and at what price. Customers don't need to carry cards for that. The cash registers will tell them that information all by themselves.

The stores what to know who is buying what.


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## Rottluver

NewYorkLaw said:


> Not giving them accurate info would at least prevent them from knowing your age, sex, race, income, and whether you buy or rent.
> 
> Pete





aindik said:


> They've always known what they sell and at what price. Customers don't need to carry cards for that. The cash registers will tell them that information all by themselves.
> 
> The stores what to know who is buying what.


I understand all that but he was saying that can't track his PURCHASES....and we all know they can. The club cards just make it easier to see what sale items are being sold and what aren't IMHO. :shrug:


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## NewYorkLaw

Rottluver said:


> I understand all that but he was saying that can't track his PURCHASES....and we all know they can. The club cards just make it easier to see what sale items are being sold and what aren't IMHO. :shrug:


I think you've EMPHASIZED the wrong word. Unless I'm mistaken, I think he was saying they could not track HIS purchases (emphasis on HIS, and not on purchases).

Pete


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## aindik

Rottluver said:


> I understand all that but he was saying that can't track his PURCHASES....and we all know they can. The club cards just make it easier to see what sale items are being sold and what aren't IMHO. :shrug:


They didn't create the cards to track what items brought people, generally, to the stores. They'd have data for that just from the registers.

They created the cards to track what items brought _which_ people, or _which kinds_ of people, to the stores.

If the cards were completely anonymous, they'd also be completely superfluous, as they wouldn't measure anything that the register wasn't already measuring.


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## dgh

Right. If they hadn't been able to track _aggregate_ purchases, then the entire system would have collapsed. Before computerized cash registers, they relied on sending people around the store counting inventory.


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## Sirshagg

Rottluver said:


> How does that stop them from seeing what you buy though? Has nothing to do with where you list your address.....it is all about marketing and seeing what items sell the most so they can use those on the front pages of their flyers/ads/etc.


Why do they need me to swipe a card to know what sells well? Just run a sales report.


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## Crrink

Sirshagg said:


> Good luck tracking my purchases - i never give these stores my real info.


I used to do that too, thought I was oh so smart until the day that I realized that since I use the same credit card for all my purchases they can identify them that way. Don't know if they can get address and other info. from the credit card, but I'm sure not as sneaky as I thought I was


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## MighTiVo

Sirshagg said:


> Good luck tracking my purchases - i never give these stores my real info.


It isn't as as important who you are but the combinations of products you purchase, over multiple visits.
So as long as you use the same card they get their info.

I don't remember where, but you can download pdf's of upc store cards so you can be part of a nationwide virtual consumer and really mess them up...


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## NiteCourt

Going a little more off topic here but...

Personally I don't mind if they know what I buy. It usually saves me money since coupons are tailored to the items I purchase. I'd be more afraid of online stores: what's tracked, their privacy policy, and what price you pay. Old news but interesting:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/ramasastry.website.prices/


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## Rottluver

Sirshagg said:


> Why do they need me to swipe a card to know what sells well? Just run a sales report.





aindik said:


> They didn't create the cards to track what items brought people, generally, to the stores. They'd have data for that just from the registers.
> 
> They created the cards to track what items brought _which_ people, or _which kinds_ of people, to the stores.
> 
> If the cards were completely anonymous, they'd also be completely superfluous, as they wouldn't measure anything that the register wasn't already measuring.





NewYorkLaw said:


> I think you've EMPHASIZED the wrong word. Unless I'm mistaken, I think he was saying they could not track HIS purchases (emphasis on HIS, and not on purchases).
> 
> Pete


I guess this is just WAY more important to some of y'all then me........


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## NewYorkLaw

Rottluver said:


> I guess this is just WAY more important to some of y'all then me........


It's all my fault, sorry. I never should have used the supermarket analogy - wherever food is involved, our thinking gets clouded.

Pete


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## Sirshagg

he, he, he 
post officially hijacked


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## krbagman

I'm very late to all this but.................I purchased a Series 2 80 hour Tivo from Best Buy in early late January of this year (still waiting for the $150 rebate). I am paying $12.95 for monthly service. Should I jump on the lifetime service for $299 (not sure of price) before it ends April 15th? Do I even have any options at this point?

You guys who understand all this can you help? I have Dish Network and don't plan on upgrading to the new Tivo when it comes out. I am very happy with the Series 2 system as it is and will continue to use it as long as my system is usable, replacing a hard-drive as needed.

Any advice??

Ken


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## jfh3

krbagman said:


> I'm very late to all this but.................I purchased a Series 2 80 hour Tivo from Best Buy in early late January of this year (still waiting for the $150 rebate). I am paying $12.95 for monthly service. Should I jump on the lifetime service for $299 (not sure of price) before it ends April 15th? Do I even have any options at this point?
> 
> You guys who understand all this can you help? I have Dish Network and don't plan on upgrading to the new Tivo when it comes out. I am very happy with the Series 2 system as it is and will continue to use it as long as my system is usable, replacing a hard-drive as needed.
> 
> Any advice??
> 
> Ken


Given what you said, if you plan on keeping the box for 2 more years, I'd go lifetime. (Yes, $299)


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## ThreeSoFar

jfh3 said:


> Given what you said, if you plan on keeping the box for 2 more years, I'd go lifetime. (Yes, $299)


I agree, it's a good fit for you.


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## krbagman

Thanks guys - will I be allowed to go from monthly to lifetime without any financial hit? Sorry if this is totally obvious or ignorant.

Thanks again!

Ken


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## timckelley

No, you will be hit for $299, of course. But then, no more $12.95 payments is the benefit of doing this.


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## ChuckyBox

krbagman said:


> Thanks guys - will I be allowed to go from monthly to lifetime without any financial hit? Sorry if this is totally obvious or ignorant.


I think it is too late for you. I am under the impression that the extended lifetime offer is only for new activations, not existing accounts. But I could be wrong.

To answer your question: the only financial hit is the $299 payment for lifetime service. Call up customer service (you can't do it online anymore) and tell them that you want to get lifetime service, you know they are offering it until 4/15, Stephen Mack said so, you read about it on TiVo Community, etc. Some people have reported difficulty getting this, so you may have to escalate to a supervisor, and you may have to call back a few hours later and try it with another CSR. But if they tell you what I told you in the first paragraph, you are probably SOL.


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## HDTiVo

ChuckyBox said:


> I think it is too late for you. I am under the impression that the extended lifetime offer is only for new activations, not existing accounts. But I could be wrong.


You are wrong. He is entitled to switch to Lifetime for $299, without penalty, and regardless of the fact he is beyond the intitial 30 days of his contract.


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## ThreeSoFar

HDTiVo said:


> You are wrong. He is entitled to switch to Lifetime for $299, without penalty, and regardless of the fact he is beyond the intitial 30 days of his contract.


This is correct, but *ONLY through April 15th*.


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## ChuckyBox

HDTiVo said:


> You are wrong. He is entitled to switch to Lifetime for $299, without penalty, and regardless of the fact he is beyond the intitial 30 days of his contract.


Corrrect. I was in error. (Though I was talking about the 3/15 to 4/15 extension, not the initial 30 day ownership period.)

Mack's "new pricing summary" says you can get lifetime on any DVR until 4/15 by calling customer service. You can continue to get lifetime on Humax boxes as long as they have no prior activation history.

So, to the OP on this question: if you are going to do it, don't put it off. If you wait until the 14th or the 15th you'll probably have a long wait on the phone, and after that you really will be SOL.


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## timckelley

I jumped the gun. I upgraded to lifetime just a couple days before the original 3-15 deadline. Now it's extended to 4-15. I should have waited until 4-14. 

Actually, not really.  Then I'd've had to've paid another $6.95 monthly fee.


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## Puppy76

A current Series 2 sounds like a pretty good fit for Dish Network, since you wouldn't really be able to use a second tuner anyway (aside from if you were using a mix of Dish and terrestrial broadcasts.


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## Morpheus101

If I hold a certificate from Best Buy for a lifetime subscription, can we use those to activate lifetime on the S3?


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## Joeg180

The lifetime cards must be redeemed within 2 years of purchase.


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## Morpheus101

So is that a yes for S3 acticvation?



Joeg180 said:


> The lifetime cards must be redeemed within 2 years of purchase.


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## timckelley

Morpheus101 said:


> So is that a yes for S3 acticvation?


Indeed it is. That's why your card is so valuable.


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## dswallow

Morpheus101 said:


> So is that a yes for S3 acticvation?


Yes, TiVo has said the lifetime gift cards will be usable on a Series 3 unit if redeemed within 2 years of their purchase.


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## TiVo Troll

Morpheus101 said:


> If I hold a certificate from Best Buy for a lifetime subscription, can we use those to activate lifetime on the S3?


According to *this* I don't see why not.


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## TiVo Troll

dswallow said:


> Yes, TiVo has said the lifetime gift cards will be usable on a Series 3 unit if redeemed within 2 years of their purchase.


*Two years* is way more than enough!


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