# Future of Directv TiVo's



## Semco (Mar 19, 2005)

Now that Directv doesn't intend to sell new tivo units and will someday discontinue Tivo support, is there a possibility that the Tivo folks will take this over and provide service like they did before Directv bought the rights to it? Mabye TiVo will offer a series 2 or 3 integrated receiver DVR...
In the meantime, TiVo should start busting them for copyright name usage. A friend just got Directv and asked for a TiVo with it, the guy installing said it was a TiVo but it was just one of their crappy DVR's.


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

There's no chance of that happening, as much as some would like to dream!

As for calling it a TiVo, it's practically become a euphamism for digitally recording, much as a tissue is a Kleenex, etc. So, I doubt anything will happen there, but it IS possible that D* will issue a directive to all staff to call it a D*DVR (some people I know would prefer POS).


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

>and will someday discontinue Tivo support

Who says?
What is the basis for that statement?

It has been mentioned here that OLD services are still supported by DirecTv... so why are you making this statement?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

If we all had a dime for everytime this topic has come up.... we could afford a T3 when it is released... 

Bottom line: The usage of the DirecTV DVRs powered by Tivo are not going anywhere.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Yeah, didn't someone say the long dead UltimateTV recorders still work with DirecTV?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The Ultimate TV units most definently still work with DirecTV.

You may have "problems" getting one activated, but they will still do it.... if you get the right CSR.


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## steuert (Mar 13, 2002)

IMO DTV will continue supporting DTiVos for decades - as long as there is even a moderate number of DTV subscribers still using them. The name of the game for DTV is programming subscriptions, not hardware. The cost of maintaining support for DTiVos is probably nominal (although they probably won't get many enhancements) and they won't want to loose the program fees paid by DTiVo owners.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

steuert said:


> IMO DTV will continue supporting DTiVos for decades - as long as there is even a moderate number of DTV subscribers still using them.


A few years? Absolutely. Decades? Not gonna happen. Eventually DTV will move all of their programming to Mpeg4 compression to take advantage of the increased bandwidth. At that point, all DTivos and Ultimate TV units will cease to record anything DTV has to offer.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I think that DirecTV would have to supply an MPEG4 capable receiver if they plan to keep those subscribers.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I there isn't TIVO software in the MPEG4 capable receiver provided, then I'm not interested. I'm just waiting for the TIVO series 3 to arrive at this point.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> I think that DirecTV would have to supply an MPEG4 capable receiver if they plan to keep those subscribers.


There are many people out there that do now want D*'s inferior TiVo wannbe DVR.


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## The_WRAiTH (Apr 8, 2006)

What's the deal with the Direct TV DVR vs Direct Tv tivo? 
My Series 2 just died last night (think the HD went, was just over 2 years old) called Dtv, and they said they were sending me a replacement, (leased unit) but since its the main reciever I don't have to pay anything. She said Tivo, but I'm thinking it might not be, haven't seen there DVR, not sure what the difference would be, can someone explain?

If they do send me there DVR and not Tivo, do they take the $5.00 tivo fee they charge off?


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bengalfreak said:


> A few years? Absolutely. Decades? Not gonna happen. Eventually DTV will move all of their programming to Mpeg4 compression to take advantage of the increased bandwidth. At that point, all DTivos and Ultimate TV units will cease to record anything DTV has to offer.


But it could be almost a decade, my best guess is that it will take 7 to 9 years before DirecTV can launch enough birds and have enough of the existing 2.5 million DirecTiVos and other receivers die and be replaced before they can shutoff MPEG2.

But before 2012, all of my five DirecTiVos should be toast and I should already be on cable via fiber and using a Microsoft based IPTV service with unlimited Video On Demand.

I actually believe that DirecTV could die and blow away before all of the DirecTiVos are dead and gone.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

JimSpence said:


> I think that DirecTV would have to supply an MPEG4 capable receiver if they plan to keep those subscribers.


Especialy those with lifetime subscriptions. Either that or refund millions. Problem is when that happens we will be forced to use their dvr. Well in 6 or 7 years mabye they will work out all the bugs  Or perhaps a dream come true. Rupert gets pissed when he loses 2 million subscribers at once and goes and buys tivo.  I can dream cant I!


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Sirshagg said:


> There are many people out there that do now want D*'s inferior TiVo wannbe DVR.


But not very many of the 2.5 million DirecTV customers that currently have DirecTiVos would really want that OTHER DVR, if they had a choice.


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## tbb1226 (Sep 16, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> But not very many of the 2.5 million DirecTV customers that currently have DirecTiVos would really want that OTHER DVR, if they had a choice.


You really have no means of making such determination. 

How many of those 2.5 million people have you interviewed? It's not wise to project your opinions (or those of a few tivo forum geeks) onto everyone else.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

JimSpence said:


> I think that DirecTV would have to supply an MPEG4 capable receiver if they plan to keep those subscribers.


Sure they will, but it won't be a Tivo. That was where my post was going. In a few years, if not sooner, all DTivos and UTV's will be rendered useless.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

The_WRAiTH said:


> She said Tivo, but I'm thinking it might not be, haven't seen there DVR, not sure what the difference would be, can someone explain?


You can read all about the R15 here.



The_WRAiTH said:


> If they do send me there DVR and not Tivo, do they take the $5.00 tivo fee they charge off?


Nope... it is a 'DVR fee', not a 'Tivo fee', so you pay it if you have one or more of any "DirecTV-compatable integrated DVR".


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Or perhaps a dream come true. Rupert gets pissed when he loses 2 million subscribers at once and goes and buys tivo.


To me that's more like a nightmare.

Why does he need to buy them, anyway? Why, upon realizing his mistake, can he not just go back to something like the old deal? Does his ego prevent it?


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

bengalfreak said:


> A few years? Absolutely. Decades? Not gonna happen. Eventually DTV will move all of their programming to Mpeg4 compression to take advantage of the increased bandwidth. At that point, all DTivos and Ultimate TV units will cease to record anything DTV has to offer.


At that point all DirecTV receivers will stop working. They will have to replace every receiver everyone has active at that point.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

Exactly. Given the cost for such a replacement, it's going to be years before it happens.


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

I currently have 3 D*Tivo boxes in boxes in the garage of our rental house, and am using Comcast Cable's DVR's while we build our new house

As soon as we move (should be November) I am going to go back to DirecTv and the 3 D*Tivo units that my wife and I both prefer... hardware is hardware, but the Tivo software that runs the box is much better than the software that runs the DVR boxes we are using right now

When these 3 D*Tivo boxes, someday, die for whatever reason... I will compare the cost of repair -vs- going to the new D*Dvr boxes, and will also take a look at the other forum at that time to see the opinions of that software's operation at whatever time this finally does happen (I don't know when, but I do know that ALL hard drives eventually die)

If it is more cost effective (to me... this is each person's choice) and/or if the D*Dvr software is still not as good as Tivo's software, I'll go to Weaknees and replace or repair as appropriate... and I do not expect that DirecTv will drop programming support for the D*Tivo any time soon (and by soon, I mean as long as my aging eyes can still see the screen!)


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

John T Smith said:


> I currently have 3 D*Tivo boxes in boxes in the garage of our rental house, and am using Comcast Cable's DVR's while we build our new house


I would strongly suggest that you activate them before February 2007 when Directv's contract runs out with TiVo. I doubt if you will be able to get them activated after that, although all activated receivers will continue to operate.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

dtremain said:


> I would strongly suggest that you activate them before February 2007 when Directv's contract runs out with TiVo. I doubt if you will be able to get them activated after that, although all activated receivers will continue to operate.


What would make you think DirecTV would not activate them?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

rminsk said:


> What would make you think DirecTV would not activate them?


I saw something about this in a post by Dan Collins, on his forum. Once the contract ends, DirecTV can't activate new receivers that use the TiVo service. I don't know if "re-activate" is also prohibited ...


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I saw something about this in a post by Dan Collins, on his forum. Once the contract ends, DirecTV can't activate new receivers that use the TiVo service. I don't know if "re-activate" is also prohibited ...


I would suspect that activating is activating.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

dtremain said:


> I would strongly suggest that you activate them before February 2007 when Directv's contract runs out with TiVo. I doubt if you will be able to get them activated after that, although all activated receivers will continue to operate.


HMMMM!!! Directv turning down money!! HMMMM!!! Unless there is a rule between tivo and d* that says they cant. I cant see them turning down 6 bucks a month. ( For mirror fee)


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

tbb1226 said:


> You really have no means of making such determination.
> 
> How many of those 2.5 million people have you interviewed? It's not wise to project your opinions (or those of a few tivo forum geeks) onto everyone else.


I am not making an opinion that hasn't already been projected by people's responses in this forum. A majority, not an absolute majority, but a majority never the less who have had a TiVo for a longtime where not happy with the OTHER DVR and many returned the unit. In fact, if you read the posts even the DirecTV CSRs where quoted as saying that DirecTV had received many returns of the OTHER DVR. You say that I shouldn't project my opinion, but if you projected an opinion in the other direction then wouldn't that be just as wrong.

I did not just base my opinion on just the posts on this forum, but many different forums, blogs, and other articles, including feedback from other independent users and even some DirecTV CSRs.

The OTHER DVR is NOT a complete failure, but IMHO it has a few more problems than the current Slingbox. And IMHO it has a boat load of more problems and what appear to me as design flaws than the current TiVo products, based upon user feedback in the OTHER forum.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

rminsk said:


> At that point all DirecTV receivers will stop working. They will have to replace every receiver everyone has active at that point.


Agreed. But replacing a non-DVR receiver is going to be a lot less of a big deal for the end user. Lots of people would like their current receiver upgraded to a new one. Many people will hold on to their DTivos, just like Ultimate TV's, as long as they possibly can.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

I'm counting on 6 bucks for an HD OTA tivo...i could live without the directv channels to be honest...just would have to use their new dvr for them but they better never "take away" my hdtivos


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> HMMMM!!! Directv turning down money!! HMMMM!!! Unless there is a rule between tivo and d* that says they cant. I cant see them turning down 6 bucks a month. ( For mirror fee)


Dan Collins is usually pretty solid with his information. Apparently there would be a rule, if it is stipulated in the contract.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

bengalfreak said:


> Many people will hold on to their DTivos, just like Ultimate TV's, as long as they possibly can.


But if there is a full move to MPEG - 4 at some point, they will not work.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

newsposter said:


> I'm counting on 6 bucks for an HD OTA tivo...i could live without the directv channels to be honest...just would have to use their new dvr for them but they better never "take away" my hdtivos


Can the Directv HD TiVo record OTA? I know I've read stuff about this, but I don't recall what it said.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bengalfreak said:


> Sure they will, but it won't be a Tivo. That was where my post was going. In a few years, if not sooner, all DTivos and UTV's will be rendered useless.




I highly doubt and I believe that I can say with almost absolute assuredly that Murdoch is NOT going to replace 2.5 million DirecTiVos and almost 12 to 15 million MPEG2 receivers in the next few years; the costs would be enormous.

I am very sure Murdoch has many other places that might require a multi-BILLION dollar investment than foolishly replacing working equipment. Currently he is investing about a BILLION over the next couple of years in Broadband assets to help DirecTV compete against the VOD threat from the Internet and cable.

IMHO, Murdoch is not going to invest a huge amount of money in satellite technology beyond the MPEG4 investment for HDTV.

DirecTiVos are currently safe from becoming obsolete for at least the next 5 to 6 years and the same goes for the 12 to 15 million MPEG2 receivers and the multi-BILLIONS already invested in the current MPEG2 satellites. A projection beyond six years is not reasonable, because of the advent of HDTV. Currently less than 10% of the American population have invested in HDTV and even though that investment should increase over the next three years, the current projections put HDTV penetration at about 33% by 2009. But you should remember not everyone is going to have HD technology in their bedroom, their kids bedrooms, and in the sewing room and kitchen, so SD technology is going to be around for a long time.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

dtremain said:


> But if there is a full move to MPEG - 4 at some point, they will not work.


But realize a full move to MPEG4 is unlikely for at least a decade or MORE and by then most of the current MPEG2 equipment should be dead by then.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

bengalfreak said:


> Agreed. But replacing a non-DVR receiver is going to be a lot less of a big deal for the end user. Lots of people would like their current receiver upgraded to a new one. Many people will hold on to their DTivos, just like Ultimate TV's, as long as they possibly can.


DirecTV has over 15,000,000 subscribers. Just as a guesstimate I'm going to say the average subscriber has 1.5 receivers. They would have to replace 22,500,000 receivers. Quite a large chunk of change to swap them all out.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

dtremain said:


> Can the Directv HD TiVo record OTA? I know I've read stuff about this, but I don't recall what it said.


YES.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

ATSC, not NTSC over the air broadcasts.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bidger said:


> ATSC, not NTSC over the air broadcasts.


Correct, the Directv HD TiVo can record HDTV OTA via the built-in ATSC tuner.

He wasn't asking about a NTSC tuner?

The original statement was *HD OTA tivo*, and the HR10-250 does record HD OTA via the built-in OTA ATSC tuner. HR10-250 does not have a NTSC tuner.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

I want to keep my Directv TIVO. I have 5 and an HDTIVO. But the problem I see ahead has nothing to do with support for this TIVO. IT has to do with getting MPEG 2 video for my network stations.
If I go to the new HD DVR this fall. Get the Dallas stations in HD using the 5 lnb dish, what happens to my MPEG 2 Dallas Station signal.
Now I am sure that right now (next 18 months) while they are trying to launch more sats. Directv will keep them up and running.
The problem I see is when they decide to completely shut down those feeds. I know that 75 % of my recording is from network shows. Having all of my Tivos unable to record only non-network stuff is unacceptable.
This is where I think they get rid of TIVO. By forcing us to upgrade so we can continue to watch and record network shows. Its not a pretty picture, but one that reminds me of Microsoft when they are trying to get you to upgrade your operating system. How many people still run Windows 95?? Most software will say min. Win 2000 or such. I figure that is what will happen to Direct TIVOs. One day we will come home and a blue screen will say this program could not be recorded because you do not have access to the sat.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Hersheytx said:


> One day we will come home and a blue screen will say this program could not be recorded because you do not have access to the sat.


Frankly, I don't understand the rest of your message (maybe it's just early in the morning), but, no, this is not going to happen to you.

If, a decade down the road, the signal was going to cause current equipment to become obsolete, they would do a swap-out first. By the time that happens, none of your TiVo's will still be around, and the whole face of the industry will have changed.

Whatever the heck you are trying to say will happen, take it easy.

Directv is not out to hurt its customers. That wouldn't make very much sense.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are MPEG4 vs MPEG2 satellites. A satellite is a repeater. The MPEG encoding is done on ground based systems, beamed to the satellites, which retransmit the signal. The modultating of the signal (QPSK, 8PSK), and the band (Ka, Ku) are dependent on the satellite, but beyond that it's just a data stream, which the satellite isn't concerned with. Even if the older satellites are only capable of QPSK, switching to MPEG4 will allow them to carry 50-100% more channels on the existing satellites. Saving on the building, launching, and maintenance of 2 satellites would go a long way to justifying eating the cost of replacing all the existing MPEG2 receivers.



tbeckner said:


> DirecTiVos are currently safe from becoming obsolete for at least the next 5 to 6 years and the same goes for the 12 to 15 million MPEG2 receivers and the multi-BILLIONS already invested in the current MPEG2 satellites. A projection beyond six years is not reasonable, because of the advent of HDTV. Currently less than 10% of the American population have invested in HDTV and even though that investment should increase over the next three years, the current projections put HDTV penetration at about 33% by 2009. But you should remember not everyone is going to have HD technology in their bedroom, their kids bedrooms, and in the sewing room and kitchen, so SD technology is going to be around for a long time.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

dtremain said:


> Can the Directv HD TiVo record OTA? I know I've read stuff about this, but I don't recall what it said.


let me preface by saying until they move HD off the 119, i can't get anything except hbo and sho in HD so dont really care about HD from directv.

my 2nd unit is on its way for this explicit purpose of recording OTA. Of course i'm gambling that if mpeg2 directv channels get shut off, that they will at least still sell me the mirroring of the guide data so i can use both boxes as OTA recorders. I'd think they would actually be making more money from me that way right? Plus if mpeg2 was shut off for SD stuff, i'd be literally forced to get a new dvr. So they would make out 2 times on me.

I haven't seen anyone address the ability to just use this as an OTA recorder though i can't see what harm it would be to keep mine turned on after the shut off.

any ideas if there is a differentiation between mpeg2 and mpeg 4 guides or if it's all the same? If it is the same, then it appears i'm set for 'life.'


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

dtremain said:


> Dan Collins is usually pretty solid with his information. Apparently there would be a rule, if it is stipulated in the contract.


The big word in your reply is IF. I can relax for about a year. I will call about 25 Csrs in Jan 2007. And the majority answers will tell me what to do. I will either sell my spares or activate them. There will be a feeding frenzy on ebay 1/2007 folks will be scarfing them up to activate them before 2/2007 IF they wont activate them any more. Either way it is good for me. I will either make a small fortune selling my Dtivos  or I will activate them and use them.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

No "ifs" about it ...

Check out the thread here at DBS Forums: http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48669

To spare you some time, start reading here, where the contract issues are being discussed: http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=402073#post402073


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

beanpoppa said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think there are MPEG4 vs MPEG2 satellites. A satellite is a repeater. The MPEG encoding is done on ground based systems, beamed to the satellites, which retransmit the signal. The modultating of the signal (QPSK, 8PSK), and the band (Ka, Ku) are dependent on the satellite, but beyond that it's just a data stream, which the satellite isn't concerned with. Even if the older satellites are only capable of QPSK, switching to MPEG4 will allow them to carry 50-100% more channels on the existing satellites. Saving on the building, launching, and maintenance of 2 satellites would go a long way to justifying eating the cost of replacing all the existing MPEG2 receivers.


There could easily be 18 million MPEG2 Receivers and DVRs. If you take that number and multiply it times the cost of around $200 each to replace (which I believe is low), it would easily cost 3.6 billion to replace the MPEG2 technology at the customer locations. It highly unlikely that Murdock is going to spend 3.6 to 5 billion to replace the working MPEG2 technology, especially since the new battlefield is not satellite technology, but VOD over the Internet.

It really doesn't matter if the existing satellites can do MPEG2 or MPEG4, because it is the cost of replacing the equipment at the customer locations and the ground transmission equipment that would determine if it was cost effective.

Even as that equipment gets replaced or dies, it will still take a long time before it would become cost effective to make the switch. No MPEG2 is going to be around for a long time.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Ground transmission equipment costs are utterly forgettable. So it really comes down to customer premises..

Since both D* and E* have started into the MP4 land with the HD signals already.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that will likely continue. I imagine premium services like Sunday Ticket and other sports packages will be made MP4 by next year.. which will of course cause more users to "upgrade" to MP4 capable receivers..

Then in a year or so.. they may start moving over premium channels like HBO, Starz, Cinemax...

It's entirely possible.

J


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

if they move ST to mpeg4, they will positively have to hand out free upgrades or they will have a riot. I think with the inevitable increase in subscription fees every year, a lot of people will get pissed enough about the 49/99 or whatever upgrade charge that it may cause a decrease in subs for ST if they dont do it for free. 

seems like it's just better to wait and let the machines die...they can replace them with refurb mpeg4 stuff and it wont cost them as much.


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

Well it looks like this morning's announcement of the extension of the agreement between TiVo & D* will have a profound effect on the future of both companies. My guess is that D* were alerted to the fact that the R15 is far from ready - and I also would say they're having problems with the HR20 DVR.

This is all good news for TiVo lovers. It means that TiVo will be supported for at least an extra three years and we may even see new products, like an MPEG-4 DVR, maybe? (Although I doubt this).


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060412/sfw019.html?.v=44


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> link:
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060412/sfw019.html?.v=44


There you go, DirecTiVos are good to go until at least 2010, another four years. This extends the DirecTV/TiVo for another three years past the contract cutoff of 2007. YAHOO

Not to read too much into this, but this could also mean that the HR10-250 people could get their 6.2 upgrade!


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