# TiVoHD and S3 users post your MRV transfer speeds



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Now that MRV is enabled for TiVoHD and S3 owners
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=371193

I'm curious how quickly you can transfer a HD recorded program. lets use a 1 hour program as our test. Start the transfer and start your stop watch. Once the show is fully transfered, stop your stopwatch and post your time here. Also let us know if you are on a wired or wireless network.

Thanks!


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## tomryan (Sep 9, 2006)

BlackBetty said:


> Now that MRV is enabled for TiVoHD and S3 owners
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=371193
> 
> I'm curious how quickly you can transfer a HD recorded program. lets use a 1 hour program as our test. Start the transfer and start your stop watch. Once the show is fully transfered, stop your stopwatch and post your time here. Also let us know if you are on a wired or wireless network.
> ...


Yes, please share all.. I have not yet gotten home to test my s3 <-> s3 wired transfer speed, but here's hoping I can watch in real time!


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

Maybe things will change later, but so far my S2's and my computer are not allowed to transfer HD programs from my S3, only SD. I get a message saying "Because the program is in HD format, it cannot be transferred to a non-HD Tivo", or something like that.

My S3 is accepting and transferring a SD program from my pc at about twice real time. Its transferred about 30 minutes of the SD program in about 15 minutes.
(Wired)

Edit: Now my pc will accept HD transfers. Just "happened"


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## tomryan (Sep 9, 2006)

Georgia Guy said:


> Maybe things will change later, but so far my S2's and my computer are not allowed to transfer HD programs from my S3, only SD. I get a message saying "Because the program is in HD format, it cannot be transferred to a non-HD Tivo", or something like that.
> 
> My S3 is accepting and transferring a SD program from my pc at about twice real time. Its transferred about 30 minutes of the SD program in about 15 minutes.
> (Wired)


per TivoPony, they will not transcode the formats and as such, an S2 will never be able to pull HD content from an S3/THD. I had thought that you could use ttcb for hd content on the s3/thd though...

of course, you could probably transcode the hd via a pc intermediate setup


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

Just got through tranferring a 1/2 hour HD show from my S3 to my PC. It took about 50 minutes on my wired network. Now, transferring it back to the S3, it appears to be taking about the same time.


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm transferring and the speed is ridiculous. Transferring 1 hour HD show and it's telling me it's going to take 3.5 hours. I may be on a wireless-B network, but that should still be a sufficient speed to transfer at a much higher rate. I'm using TiVo wireless adapter, and computer is wired to the router. Both are in the same room, so signal is always excellent. Really angering me...

*EDIT* I have an S3, not TiVo HD.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

mikesay98 said:


> I'm transferring and the speed is ridiculous. *Transferring 1 hour HD show and it's telling me it's going to take 3.5 hours.* I may be on a wireless-B network, but that should still be a sufficient speed to transfer at a much higher rate. I'm using TiVo wireless adapter, and computer is wired to the router. Both are in the same room, so signal is always excellent. Really angering me...


I'm interested to see what it's like for G based speeds... anyone?


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I have wireless-g router and just transferred a 1/2 hour HD show from THD to S3. Unfortunately I decided to transfer a different 1/2 hour HD show the other direction at the same time. Each transfer took about 80 minutes (overlapped about 90%).


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I have wireless-g router and just transferred a 1/2 hour HD show from THD to S3. Unfortunately I decided to transfer a different 1/2 hour HD show the other direction at the same time. Each transfer took about 80 minutes (overlapped about 90%).


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

You have to remember that transfer speeds will vary depending on your network topology. If you want the fastest transfer, you want your PC, router/switch, and Tivo all hardwired. If any link is wireless, that will be the bottleneck. If you have 802.11b anywhere in the link, everything will go to that speed.

Remember that 802.11b is theoretical max at 11 Mbps. Typical is 4.5 Mbps. I've found a 1 hour Tivo HD file can be up to 9 GB. If I did my math correctly, that's 1.8 GB/hr. So 3.5 hours seems correct.

I have my Tivos hardwired using Netgear Powerline adapters that work up to 80 Mbps. Those seem to work quite well.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

mikesay98 said:


> I'm transferring and the speed is ridiculous. Transferring 1 hour HD show and it's telling me it's going to take 3.5 hours. I may be on a wireless-B network, but that should still be a sufficient speed to transfer at a much higher rate. I'm using TiVo wireless adapter, and computer is wired to the router. Both are in the same room, so signal is always excellent. Really angering me...
> 
> *EDIT* I have an S3, not TiVo HD.


Are you really disappointed? That seems plenty quick to me!

HD is tranmissted at a theoretical max of 19.2MBPS, although most channels broadcast in the 10-14 MBPS range.

802.11b is limited to around 3-5 MBPS (practical max), despite the optimistic 11MBPS designation.

A one hour show WOULD transfer at no quicker than 3X realtime (show duration). By my quick fuzzy math.

Time for a network upgrade?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Sheesh - my first genuinely helpful post here in months, and I get upstaged. I should just retire.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

Is there any utility out there to figure out where your bottlenecks are and/or what transfer speeds you are getting? I have everything hardwired.


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

Oldskoolboarder and ashu, thanks a lot for the number crunching. I guess I was under the assumption that it should be able to transfer HD content a lot faster. Guess I was wrong! I'm going to be moving to a new place in the next couple weeks or so, and that would have necessitated a network upgrade, anyway. So, looks like I'll be searching for a new G router. Any idea with a G router, how fast a recording SHOULD transfer, then?


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Anyone got Wireless N? I wonder what the speeds are like with N.


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm pretty certain the networking even on the S3 is CPU-bound. I've never seen greater than about 2.5X my regular S2, even before the 'official' MRV was turned on. The variety of MIPS processor in the S3 is still pretty slow, even for what was originally an $800 box.

With the sheer size of some of those HiDef recordings, it's going to take a long time for transfers.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

too bad there wasn't a way to stream the video from box to box instead of having to transfer the entire video.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

The second one-hour program took 1 hour 40 minutes to transfer. And that was SD at Best Quality over a wired network.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Narf54321 said:


> I'm pretty certain the networking even on the S3 is CPU-bound. I've never seen greater than about 2.5X my regular S2, even before the 'official' MRV was turned on. The variety of MIPS processor in the S3 is still pretty slow, even for what was originally an $800 box.
> 
> With the sheer size of some of those HiDef recordings, it's going to take a long time for transfers.


How did you determine that its CPU bound on the S3?


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## fatespawn (Oct 14, 2007)

mikesay98 said:


> Oldskoolboarder and ashu, thanks a lot for the number crunching. I guess I was under the assumption that it should be able to transfer HD content a lot faster. Guess I was wrong! I'm going to be moving to a new place in the next couple weeks or so, and that would have necessitated a network upgrade, anyway. So, looks like I'll be searching for a new G router. Any idea with a G router, how fast a recording SHOULD transfer, then?


f you're looking into upgrading your network, you should look into a -n network...of course I think that Tivo's are only -g capable.

That said, you can still get a -n network going.... you just have to put the router next to the Tivo and hard wire the tivo. That way all other computers will be on speedy -n wireless, and the Tivo will have a speedy wired connection.

If you try to go -n and mix a -g card somewhere in the mix (like the Tivo) you're going to slow down the whole -n network. -n doesn't like mixing flavors. Hardwiring the Tivo avoids that.

-fate


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Exuberance slams into reality. 

How's navigating the remote DVRs' NPL using the S3 and HD?


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## broconne (Oct 21, 2007)

Just got TTG working here and the speeds are very disappointing. I was hoping that S3 would be much faster at transferring than the S2 since it should not be CPU bound for network - has a built in ethernet port and I assume hardware ethernet chipset. However, transferring a 30 minute SD show is taking 14 minutes over a 1000 MBPS end to end network..


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

Yeah, your best bet is to hardwire. Typical 11n rates MAY go to 150 Mbps, if you're lucky. But if you have any legacy wireless (11b, 11g, 11a) they system will use the lowest common denominator. AND you will only get 11n rates if both the router and client have 11n. As was said, I don't know of any 11n client for Tivo. Even if you wire an 11n router, the wired link can only be as fast as Fast Ethernet which is 100 Mb. 100 Mb is line rate and doesn't include overhead so actual transfer speeds will be less than 100 Mb. 

yeah, it's a bit confusing and misleading when trying to figure out actual rates.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

OOORRRRRR you could hardwire the TiVo to an N Bridge (the cheapest way to go about it would be to find an N router (get two - one main and one for the TiVo etc in the Home Theater area) that can do bridging.

That would be ... wait for it, wait for it ... an Ultimate Wireless Network(2)! 

(see my signature - I use 4 G routers as bridges homewide - every device is 'wired')



fatespawn said:


> f you're looking into upgrading your network, you should look into a -n network...of course I think that Tivo's are only -g capable.
> 
> That said, you can still get a -n network going.... you just have to put the router next to the Tivo and hard wire the tivo. That way all other computers will be on speedy -n wireless, and the Tivo will have a speedy wired connection.
> 
> ...


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Exuberance slams into reality.
> 
> How's navigating the remote DVRs' NPL using the S3 and HD?


Not fast, but a lot quicker than the slow speed that my S2's had been reduced to by 9.1. Takes it about a second, maybe 2, to draw the screen as you page thru the remote NLP.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Georgia Guy said:


> Not fast, but a lot quicker than the slow speed that my S2's had been reduced to by 9.1. Takes it about a second, maybe 2, to draw the screen as you page thru the remote NLP.


Is 9.2 any better on the S2 than 9.1 was?


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> How did you determine that its CPU bound on the S3?


You have to hack your box and watch 'top' while you transfer something.
I'm downloading with TySuiteJ right now, with two SD shows recording on the S3 tuners, and playing back another SD show. The playback is stuttering and pausing-resuming badly because the S3 CPU can't keep up.


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

fatespawn said:


> f you're looking into upgrading your network, you should look into a -n network...of course I think that Tivo's are only -g capable.
> 
> That said, you can still get a -n network going.... you just have to put the router next to the Tivo and hard wire the tivo. That way all other computers will be on speedy -n wireless, and the Tivo will have a speedy wired connection.
> 
> ...


Is G really that much better than N in this situation? I mean, isn't the TiVo also limited by how fast it can upload the information onto the network, anyway? Also, my laptop doesn't have an N card in it, only G, and I'd rather not spend the money to upgrade both that and my desktop to accept N speeds. I just figure, if I can get HD programs onto my computer at around 2X (obviously faster is better), and G can manage that, I'll be happy.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

Has anyone been able to do MRV for a HD show (say ~7GB for an 1 hr show) between an S3 and Tivo HD on a wired network in real time? meaning start transfer and watch right away. Is it possible to skip commercial and jump ahead? How much buffer does one need to do that?


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

mikesay98 said:


> Is G really that much better than N in this situation?


Exactly. An 'N' network won't show any improvement over a 'G' network for Tivo transfers. In fact, a good 'B' network might be enough, as long as you don't have any other wireless devices on the LAN.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Narf54321 said:


> You have to hack your box and watch 'top' while you transfer something.
> I'm downloading with TySuiteJ right now, with two SD shows recording on the S3 tuners, and playing back another SD show. The playback is stuttering and pausing-resuming badly because the S3 CPU can't keep up.
> 
> -----------------------------
> ...


So are you getting max transfer rates no better than around 10 or 12mbps on the hi def TiVoes? Wired or wireless?


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> Is 9.2 any better on the S2 than 9.1 was?


Don't have 9.2 on the S2's (9.2 is only for the S3's, right?)
While the S3 (using 9.2) can look at the S2's menus fairly quickly, all my S2's are still really slow looking at both S2's & my S3 remote NPL.

The S2's are still as horribly slow as ever when looking at a remote NPL list and actually selecting a show. When doing that it still takes more than 10 seconds of "Please Wait" until it brings up the show's info screen with the "transfer this program" selection.

The S3, on the other hand, not only does all the S2 NLP lists faster but is very quick to bring up the show info screen when selecting a show to transfer.

IOW, if you want speed, use the S3 to bring shows from S2's, because its much much faster. S2's take a long time to navigate remote NPL's on both S2's and S3's.

Now if they could just fix 9.1.


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

oldskoolboarder said:


> You have to remember that transfer speeds will vary depending on your network topology. If you want the fastest transfer, you want your PC, router/switch, and Tivo all hardwired. If any link is wireless, that will be the bottleneck. If you have 802.11b anywhere in the link, everything will go to that speed.
> 
> Remember that 802.11b is theoretical max at 11 Mbps. Typical is 4.5 Mbps. I've found a 1 hour Tivo HD file can be up to 9 GB. If I did my math correctly, that's 1.8 GB/hr. So 3.5 hours seems correct.
> 
> I have my Tivos hardwired using Netgear Powerline adapters that work up to 80 Mbps. Those seem to work quite well.


Oh, I see, I'm probably getting 4.5 to 5 mbps right now, but with a G I could get at least double that, and that would cut down on time. What I don't understand, then, is why there is a theoretical max and a typical. Shouldn't a router work at its max? What's keeping it from doing around 11 mbps?


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## iamnotmad (Feb 15, 2003)

I'm getting a disappointing speed. It took just over 3 hours to transfer a 2.5 hour HD show (around 13GB). Then it took <30 mins to xfer that show over the same wired network to another computer.

Oh well, I can queue them up and archive some stuff overnight. Is this the speed I should expect though? Why is it so slow?


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## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

iamnotmad said:


> I'm getting a disappointing speed. It took just over 3 hours to transfer a 2.5 hour HD show (around 13GB). Then it took <30 mins to xfer that show over the same wired network to another computer.
> 
> Oh well, I can queue them up and archive some stuff overnight. Is this the speed I should expect though? Why is it so slow?


That's pretty fast bro. Enjoy.


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> So are you getting max transfer rates no better than around 10 or 12mbps on the hi def TiVoes? Wired or wireless?


As oldskoolboarder and mikesay98 noted, I've also never seen more than about 4.5mbps.
I've heard you can replace the network drivers, and upgrade your wiring and router to support "Jumbo" frames to improve (wired) throughput. But I've never actually done it.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I got an average of about 12 Mbps. Took 75 minutes to transfer a 64 minute HD file. This is on wireless G network where the TiVo is only about 25 feet away from the router though, and in the same room.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

Guys, going to "properties" on Tivo Desktop, then "performance " , we can set maximum cache size and activity level. My set was 10 MB and I changed to 300MB. Does it make any difference on the transfer time ? I changed when I had already started the transfer and I don't know if the new setting is being used. Didn't notice any difference and my G network , with nothing below G speed, should allow much faster speed. Estimated : 6 hours for a 2 hours HD movie (18 GB).

Any Thoughts ?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Georgia Guy said:


> Don't have 9.2 on the S2's (9.2 is only for the S3's, right?)
> While the S3 (using 9.2) can look at the S2's menus fairly quickly, all my S2's are still really slow looking at both S2's & my S3 remote NPL.
> 
> IOW, if you want speed, use the S3 to bring shows from S2's, because its much much faster. S2's take a long time to navigate remote NPL's on both S2's and S3's.
> ...


Ooops. 

Well maybe all this transfer and navigation stuff will get better in future releases for all platforms. Its all pretty new at this point.

I am very disappointed at the S3 platform speeds observed so far. :down: :down: :down:

For me, The S2s may just become servers to Series3 platforms over time anyway. (And maybe that time will be accelerated.  )


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Narf54321 said:


> As oldskoolboarder and mikesay98 noted, I've also never seen more than about 4.5mbps.
> I've heard you can replace the network drivers, and upgrade your wiring and router to support "Jumbo" frames to improve (wired) throughput. But I've never actually done it.


Is what you are doing an accurate reflection of TiVo's implementation and can we confidently relate the results (ie. CPU bound/bit rates) to TiVo's official feature?


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

That's really slow. 

6 hours = 21,600 seconds.
18 gigabytes = 18432 megabytes = ~147500 megabits

Divide those out and the Tivos only sending data out at 6.82mbps, which is icky because your 802.11g should be able to handle at least 22mbps.


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## Islanti (Dec 13, 2001)

Narf54321 said:


> Exactly. An 'N' network won't show any improvement over a 'G' network for Tivo transfers. In fact, a good 'B' network might be enough, as long as you don't have any other wireless devices on the LAN.


 Not entirely true. An N router handles reflections of the signal in a "G" network significantly better than a "G" router. When I put in an "N" router yesterday (in anticipation of MRV) I saw my signal strength go up ~30% and my speed stay at 54Mbps rather than dropping down to 11Mbps. I'm able to transfer an HD show from Tivo HD to Tivo HD just a bit faster than watching it.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

Honestly, the only times I've seen jumbo frames make a difference is on gigabit ethernet interfaces, which Tivo doesn't support. In addtion, jumbo frames only works if both ends support it.

For example, if you have a new Intel Mac and use the new Airport Extreme w/ gigabit ports, you can turn on jumbo frames and you should see a difference.


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## speedz (Jun 12, 2004)

So far I am quite impressed. 

I Transferred 'Til Death' which info notes as 720p and watched it in Real Time without ever having to stop. It was transferring much faster than viewing time so I could had likely forwarded through all commercials but did not to get a clean test.

Total Transfer time for Til Death @ 720p 30 min episode view time: *18 minutes*
This is on a standard wired 100mbs network from a S3 to a TivoHD.
I found filesize on Info: 2.31 GB

First Impression: :up:


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## mikesay98 (Aug 26, 2006)

So is there any consensus as to what is the best way to do this, both on a wired and a wireless network? The arguments seem to focus on whether G or N is better. My personal opinion is that I don't need an N wireless router if the only point is to hard wire the TiVo to it. I'd rather just get a G router and have everything compatible with it, and still have speeds much, much better than the ones I'm getting right now on my B network.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

OK. I just transferred another 30 min HD program over my wireless-g, this time without the distortion of another transfer going the other direction. It took 42 minutes to complete. Not great, but not bad.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

I'm only seeing about 6.6Mbps on a wired 10/100 from the Series3 to my Windows box, using IE to download. I pull 80Mbps across the same switch all the time, so no doubt there is a hardware limitation in the TiVo.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

So far under *"normal viewing conditions"* I get about *20-30 Mbps (9-13 GB/hour) for MRV between 2 S3s*. Normal viewing conditions for me being:
* 802.11g WDS bridge between both S3s
* Both tuners of both S3s tuned to SD and/or HD channels
* Watching on receiving S3 before transfer completes

Under *"ideal conditions"* I can get up to about *44 Mbps (20 GB/hour) for MRV between 2 S3s*. Ideal conditions being:
* S3s connected to same 100Mpbs switch via cat6 cables
* All 4 tuners tuned to channels I don't subscribe to (thereby minimizing disk activity) - NOTE: This alone increases throughput about 50% for me since it apparently reduces load on both Tivos therefore enabling higher transfer rates.
* Not watching the transfer as it happens on the receiving S3.

So with above speeds under "normal" conditions SD transfers fly, and HD transfers are faster than real time, but not quite fast enough to be able to skip through all commercials of a 1 hour show. Under "ideal" conditions both SD and HD transfers fly so no problems avoiding commercials.

*For TTG it looks like I max out at 15 Mbps (~ 7GB/hour) under "ideal conditions"*. I think it's related to the originating Tivo having to work to create the encrypted .TiVo format so not much can be done to further optimize transfers for TTG case.


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## jtseltmann (May 23, 2005)

moyekj said:


> So far under "normal viewing conditions" I get about 20-30 Mbps (9-13 GB/hour) for MRV between 2 S3s. Normal viewing conditions for me are:
> * 802.11g WDS bridge between both S3s
> * Both tuners of both S3s tuned to SD and/or HD channels
> 
> ...


Follow up:
THD => THD sees about 10-20 Mbps under normal conditions (about half the S3). "Ideal" conditions were in the mid 20's at times. Testing done with HD program via wired ethernet and channels for all tuners as noted above.


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## TiVoter123 (Jan 1, 2001)

broconne said:


> Just got TTG working here and the speeds are very disappointing. I was hoping that S3 would be much faster at transferring than the S2 since it should not be CPU bound for network - has a built in ethernet port and I assume hardware ethernet chipset. However, transferring a 30 minute SD show is taking 14 minutes over a 1000 MBPS end to end network..


In the case of gigabit ethernet, it's not really gigabit end-to-end, as the tivo is limited to 100 mbps (I think ... correct me if I'm wrong).


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

I just transferred a 1 hours SD program from the THD to the S2 and it 1 hour and 5 minutes.

The THD is wired and the S2 is wireless.


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

oldskoolboarder said:


> Honestly, the only times I've seen jumbo frames make a difference is on gigabit ethernet interfaces, which Tivo doesn't support. In addtion, jumbo frames only works if both ends support it.


You have to crowbar the backport drivers into the Tivo to make it work. It doesn't support Jumbo frames out of the box. Apparently it has to do with a lot fewer checks and ACKs, in addition to the large bit windows, as it transmits.

More confusing is speedz and moyekj reporting some rather outstanding numbers.


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## Formica (Apr 24, 2007)

Tivo S3 on 100Mb to my PC. With two SD shows recording, I am getting about 17.5Mbps transferring a ~4.8GB file (Battlestar Galactica, "Maelstrom", Universal HD, 1080i). Attempting to bring up the NPL on another computer caused it to drop to about 5Mbps and then climb back up once the NPL was finished transferring.

It just finished... and I have to say after all this time, I'm VERY surprised to see that it transferred it in its full HD glory. Wow. This is _so_ cool.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

bdraw said:


> I'm only seeing about 6.6Mbps on a wired 10/100 from the Series3 to my Windows box, using IE to download. I pull 80Mbps across the same switch all the time, so no doubt there is a hardware limitation in the TiVo.


No, it could be that the software is very suboptimal at this early point in its development.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> No, it could be that the software is very suboptimal at this early point in its development.


Possibly. It maybe likely that the Linux ethernet driver is not fully optimized. Up to this point, it didn't really need to be.


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## Carsten (Feb 5, 2007)

Downloading from the HTTPS interface I get ~2.0 MB/s. Of course this slows down if and when I view a station or change channels. But 2.1 MB/s (Mega Bytes Per Second) or so is about hte avg.


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## wdwms (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm getting very good speeds when going TivoS3 -> TivoHD.

A half hour SD program is taking under 5 minutes
An hour SD show takes about 10 minutes
An 1 hour HD show (1080i) took about 15-18 minutes

The HD xfer above was done *while* the TivoHD had shows being recording on the other tuners. So it was recording 2; downloading one and playing back the download to me all at the same time.

All are fast enough to begin watching immediately. When watching you can see the green progress bar move!

I originally had the S3 wired and the TivoHD wireless; I put that to bed real fast and ran Cat5 for the TivoHD. Not only did the performance go up to what you see above; but the TivoHD is actually running faster doing other things (menus, etc). Overhead of that wireless driver is dragging it down.

Now the two tivos are patched into the same switch in the basement - super fast xfer rates; can't complain at all!

-t


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

I don't get it: 30 minutes, SD,1.5 GB, from S3 to PC through wireless G ...40 minutes. Same program tranferred back to S3 from PC...12 minutes. Why ? Nothing else was running on the PC and no recordings on the S3.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

oldskoolboarder said:


> Possibly. It maybe likely that the Linux ethernet driver is not fully optimized. Up to this point, it didn't really need to be.


Here was the comment from Pony on the TiVo HD:



> Also, due to system resources, TiVo HD transfers are typically a bit slower at the moment. Speeding them up is something being investigated, but there is no additional information to share today.


I'll bet there's more performance to be had with software optimizations.


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## murryamorris (Feb 1, 2005)

ashu said:


> OOORRRRRR you could hardwire the TiVo to an N Bridge (the cheapest way to go about it would be to find an N router (get two - one main and one for the TiVo etc in the Home Theater area) that can do bridging.
> 
> That would be ... wait for it, wait for it ... an Ultimate Wireless Network(2)!
> 
> (see my signature - I use 4 G routers as bridges homewide - every device is 'wired')


Yep, that's what I do on one of my Tivo's. It's wired to a G bridge (actually a G print server with 4 ports). My other Tivo is hard wired to my gigabit switch. I haven't timed transfers yet but it took maybe 30-40 minutes for my 1 hour SD at best quality from a THD to an S3 this way.


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## murryamorris (Feb 1, 2005)

Narf54321 said:


> As oldskoolboarder and mikesay98 noted, I've also never seen more than about 4.5mbps.
> I've heard you can replace the network drivers, and upgrade your wiring and router to support "Jumbo" frames to improve (wired) throughput. But I've never actually done it.


I've only used Jumbo frames on PC to PC transfers of large files. It only works on devices that allow jumbo (Intel NIC's, etc). I didn't know Tivo could handle jumbo frames so don't have it set on my main PC.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

PC to S3, wireless, draft N Linksys router, G Tivo adapter, distance 70 feet

210mb mpeg-2 file (10 minutes, 10 seconds long) in 2minutes 52 seconds


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## Narf54321 (Mar 30, 2005)

> I didn't know Tivo could handle jumbo frames so don't have it set on my main PC.]


Tivo doesn't out of the box. Given the general slowness for HiDef transfers, I meant that it may be worth hacking the machine and installing the backport drivers which can support Jumbo frames. Although, I doubt most folks are going to want to mess with hacking the S3/TivoHD unit.

Perhaps Tivo will finally start looking at improving the network performance. Given the slow Broadcom chips used inside the box, I'm not sure they can do all that much.


tivoknucklehead said:


> 210mb mpeg-2 file (10 minutes, 10 seconds long) in 2minutes 52 seconds


I assume you mean megabytes (MB). So...
210MB/172sec = 1.22 MegaBytes per second
(1.22)(MByte/sec)*(8 bits/Byte) = ~ 9.77 Mbps

70 feet might be a bit much for your 802.11


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## montz (Sep 23, 2007)

TiVo wired to Linksys Wireless-G router - wireless connection to my Mac, using TiVoDecode Manager moved an HD, 1-hour "The Office" episode (about 6GB) in about 2 hours. Not too bad!


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## Jiffylush (Oct 31, 2006)

Only have one TiVo so no MRV but...

Transferring a 22min xvid (~190mb) to the S3 only used 1-1.6% of my desktop's gig connection. But the transfer was basically realtime, I was able to start watching almost immediately and did not catch up to the buffer.

BTW, the processor usage on my box was very high (I assume it is transcoding), so it could be that I am processor limited on this. (dual core 3.2, not core 2 duo)


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## String (Aug 2, 2005)

I have been pretty disappointed. I have a 100mb wired switched network, and a 1 hour SD show ~1.7 GB took about 20 minutes. A 2 hour SD show took about 40 minutes.


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## David Scavo (Dec 14, 1999)

Narf54321 said:


> Tivo doesn't out of the box. Given the general slowness for HiDef transfers, I meant that it may be worth hacking the machine and installing the backport drivers which can support Jumbo frames. Although, I doubt most folks are going to want to mess with hacking the S3/TivoHD unit.


Narf,

Does the TivoHD hardware support Gigabit at all ? Or is jumbo frames with 100mb connection the best it can do (which requires PROM hack and backport drivers) ?

Thanks.


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## danfi (Jan 6, 2006)

While I was at work today I had my PC transferring shows from my Series 3 all day long. It did 12 hours of HD in right around 11 hours. Assuming the transfer speed from the PC to the Series 3 is about the same, at least I could stream a show back and watch it in real time.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

String said:


> I have been pretty disappointed. I have a 100mb wired switched network, and a 1 hour SD show ~1.7 GB took about 20 minutes. A 2 hour SD show took about 40 minutes.


~1.7 GB took about 20 minutes? I'd say that was impressive, I'd be happy.

I moved a 30 min SD show (~170 MB according to Tivo Desktop) from S2 Tivo -> Wired Ethernet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> AC outlet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> Wired Ethernet -> S3. It took < 20 min.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

I know Broadcom is used for the STB functions, I don't think it's the host CPU. In the past, it's been Motorola now Freescale. I also don't know which fast ethernet chip is used. I'm guessing here, but the ineffiency could be due to the Linux driver running on the host CPU and not being optimized along w/ the specific ethernet chip. I don't think any Tivo box has a TCP offload engine in hardware (not needed) so it'd have to be done on the host, burdening it even more. That would make sense considering TivoPony's reference earlier regarding the TivoHD. Guess it's up to the hack community to provide driver "fixes" to possibly increase the TX/RX FIFOs in software or allow jumbo frames if the ethernet chip supports it. But also bear in mind that if jumbo frames are turned on your PC/Mac and Tivo, they ALSO have to be properly done on the switch. And jumbo frames is not truly a defined number. Some consider jumbo to mean 1600 byte frames or 9K byte frames or 10K byte frames etc.

It is interesting though from the posts here, that S3 to Tivo HD seems to have the best transfer speeds.


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

In a hardwired test, I get pretty bad numbers from a THD to my PC (Gigabit, dual core).

I transferred a 30mins clip recorded which was 3672MB (16mbps) in 55mins. That's around 9.97mbps over a 100mbps+ link.

This was using Tivo Deskop 2.5 and 9.2J on the THD

Why are some users reporting fast downloads while others see these poor speeds.

Dammad


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## synch22 (Dec 30, 2003)

i am wireless on my series 2 in the bedroom, I transferred a show from S3 and i could start watching pretty much immediatley. It was 30 mins BBQ University!


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

I just did the same test as my previous one (2 posts ago) but this time with Tivo Desktop 2.51

I didn't manage to download the whole program, but TiVo Desktop reported between 1h 15 and 2 hours to download the same file!

I had a power failure and tried to reconnect and keep getting the problem of getting to 41 out of 161 records and then it stops. I'll just the HTTPS trick to reconnect, but 2.5.1 seems slower *and* far more sensitive in connection.


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## murryamorris (Feb 1, 2005)

I was able to time a transfer today and SD program at best quality of 1 hour recording took 20 minutes. This is from an HD to an S3. Network is wired to a gigabit switch, then routed to a wireless router on the S3 side. The THD is hard wired into a Wireless G print server to send the signal to the main router downstairs.

I haven't tested an HD transfer yet but the SD time looks good to me. That much faster than realtime I can skip easily after just a couple of minutes of transferring. If I were to transfer to a PC, I suppose it would be nice to be as fast as possible but then I'd just transfer from the hard wired unit.


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

I did another test using the HTTPS interface and got ~750MB/s (around ~6000mbps). That may be okay for SD, but it terrible for HD.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

dammad said:


> I did another test using the HTTPS interface and got ~750MB/s (around ~6000mbps). That may be okay for SD, but it terrible for HD.


 LOL, surely you mean 750 KBytes/sec, not Mbytes/sec - otherwise that's blazing fast.


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

For verification, I ran a test that transfered 724MB file from my NAS box (terastation) to the same PC. It transferred in 1.6minutes, or 87.75mbps (no jumbo frames)

So this thing is *definitely* TiVo bound.

Based on past posts, THDs seem to be have noticable slowness compared to S3s.


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

moyekj said:


> LOL, surely you mean 750 KBytes/sec, not Mbytes/sec - otherwise that's blazing fast.


Ah, yes.. It's getting late.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

I am transfering a 6GB/hr show at about 9GB/hr from an HD to an S3 using a good 100mb+ wired network incl. a GB switch and a 100mb switch. That's up around 20mbps, which is passable.

Actually, I wonder if transfer bit rates vary with program bit rate. TiVo may choose to loaf a 2.5mbps program @ 4-5mbps, while stepping it up to 20mbps+ for full bit rate HD recordings. 

I used to see some evidence on the S2s that transfer bit rates increased with program bit rate (recording quality) though I never carefully documented it. 

Something I never noticed, but envisioned as a good idea, was to goose the xfer rate when you are close to the end of the buffer.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Some other things I wonder if they affect transfer rates (we already know that tuning both tuners to non-subscribed channels gives a big boost in transfer rates):
* 1080i vs 720p (I know 720p are generally smaller than 1080i but I am talking about comparing the rate of transfer, not how long the total transfer takes)
* Encrypted vs. non-encrypted? Are recordings from encrypted channels stored on the Tivo the same way as recordings from unencrypted channels? Does Tivo use it's own encryption format for storage on disk? When you MRV from 1 Tivo to another is there any decryption/encryption taking place?


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## TiVoter123 (Jan 1, 2001)

I am maxing out at about 6.5 Mbps on a 100 Mbit wired network, going from THD --> PC via https.


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## String (Aug 2, 2005)

oldskoolboarder said:


> ~1.7 GB took about 20 minutes? I'd say that was impressive, I'd be happy.
> 
> I moved a 30 min SD show (~170 MB according to Tivo Desktop) from S2 Tivo -> Wired Ethernet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> AC outlet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> Wired Ethernet -> S3. It took < 20 min.


Really? Isn't that is about 10Mbps. Should be about 10 times faster.


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

HDTiVo said:


> I am transfering a 6GB/hr show at about 9GB/hr from an HD to an S3 using a good 100mb+ wired network incl. a GB switch and a 100mb switch. That's up around 20mbps, which is passable.
> 
> Actually, I wonder if transfer bit rates vary with program bit rate. TiVo may choose to loaf a 2.5mbps program @ 4-5mbps, while stepping it up to 20mbps+ for full bit rate HD recordings.
> 
> ...


How could you tell is was transferred at 9GB/hr? I only see 6-10mbps out of my THD.

What software are you using 9.1 or 9.2J?

Can you try the same thing using the HTTPS interface. Mozilla does a good job at showing the transfer rate for a quick test.


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## Joybob (Oct 2, 2007)

oldskoolboarder said:


> ~1.7 GB took about 20 minutes? I'd say that was impressive, I'd be happy.
> 
> I moved a 30 min SD show (~170 MB according to Tivo Desktop) from S2 Tivo -> Wired Ethernet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> AC outlet -> Netgear Powerline adapter -> Wired Ethernet -> S3. It took < 20 min.


Aha, finally someone else who uses a Netgear Powerline adapter. What speed does your adapter claim?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dammad said:


> How could you tell is was transferred at 9GB/hr? I only see 6-10mbps out of my THD.
> 
> What software are you using 9.1 or 9.2J?


Took 60min to transfer 90min of 6GB/hr show.

S3 9.1, THD 9.2


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## dammad (Aug 10, 2007)

HDTiVo said:


> Took 60min to transfer 90min of 6GB/hr show.
> 
> S3 9.1, THD 9.2


Can you try the same using the HTTPS interact to the THD from a PC?


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

For TTG, I get 14-18 mbit/s over a hardwired connection, which is usually either slightly faster or slightly slower than realtime for HD material.


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## Skinny Kid (Jun 30, 2003)

What speed is the nic in the TiVo Series3? I have it hooked to a 10/100/1000 switch. My MacBook Pro is connected at 1000. How can I tell what the TiVo is connected at?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dammad said:


> Can you try the same using the HTTPS interact to the THD from a PC?


I'm glad you asked that, because that particular show (series - The War PBS HD) is failing to transfer via normal TD TTG. Maybe I can do it that way and give you an answer as well.

Thanks for the tip. 

Edit: No luck, Xfer to PC still fails using IE browser.


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

Here's a sample datapoint:

I have an S3, free TiVo Desktop 2.5, and a wired 100Mbps Ethernet network. The TiVo is separated from the computer by 1 router and 1 switch on my home network, all running at 100Mbps.

I transferred an HD program of 1 hour 2 minutes in length from the S3 to my computer in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The file size on the computer is: 7,905,008,212 bytes or 7.36 gigabytes

For 80 minutes or 4,800 seconds the math breaks down like this:

1,646,876.71 bytes per second (roughly 13Mbps)
1,608.28 kilobytes per second
1.57 megabytes per second

EDIT: Going by this formula:

TTG transfer rate = (File size of .TiVo Recording in Bytes on your PC * 8) / (Minutes to Transfer Recording * 60) / 1000000

I come up with 13.175
:END EDIT

-- Dennis


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TivoHD & Series3 MRV/TTG/TTCB: FAQ + Discussion

Instructions for calculating MRV and TTG throughput, from the above link:



> *How do I calculate my MRV transfer rate?*
> 
> The first step is to determine the time a recording took to transfer. The transfer start time is on the bottom-right of the recorded program screen. You do not need to sit and wait for the recording to finish, because the exact time of transfer completion will be listed under the "Keep Until" date for the newly transferred recording. Subtract the start time from the "Keep Until" time to find the total transfer time.
> 
> MRV transfer rate = (Size in Gigabytes on TiVo Info Screen * 1000 * 8) / ( Minutes to Transfer Recording * 60)





> *How do I calculate my TiVoToGo transfer rate?*
> 
> The first step is to determine the time a recording took to transfer. That is easy to do because a PC keeps track of the time the file was created and the time it was last modified (i.e. finished), as well as the total file size in bytes. You do not need to sit by and wait for the transfer to finish.
> 
> ...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

How about multiplying the # of GB/hr by 2.2 to get close to the # of mbps.


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## nathanziarek (Sep 1, 2006)

My S3 is connected direct to the router, and I'm on a 'g'-connected computer.

A 2.74 GB file took 28 minutes to download -- that's almost 6GB/hour.


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

Joybob said:


> Aha, finally someone else who uses a Netgear Powerline adapter. What speed does your adapter claim?


Mine claims 85 Mbps. They are all wired to 10/100 switches (Linksys and Apple Extreme).


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

Skinny Kid said:


> What speed is the nic in the TiVo Series3? I have it hooked to a 10/100/1000 switch. My MacBook Pro is connected at 1000. How can I tell what the TiVo is connected at?


It's 10/100. Unfortunately, that'll be your bottleneck.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

oldskoolboarder said:


> Mine claims 85 Mbps. They are all wired to 10/100 switches (Linksys and Apple Extreme).


There are two types of powerline adapters. There are the Homeplug AV and comparable models which claim 200+Mbps and provide 25-60+ Mbps usable throughput, depending on the conditions of the electric wires in your home.

The second is the Homeplug 1.0 type which claim 85Mbps, and typically provide 10-20Mbps usable throughput, depending on the condition of your electrical wires.

The rest of the throughput goes to error correction and other overhead, just as a 54Mbps wireless connection only provides 16-19Mbps of usable throughput.


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## zimrules1 (Sep 19, 2003)

My simple test is connect to my S3 via the webpage:

https://<my_tivo_ip>/nowplaying/index.html

And download a show. ("Save as" via IE)

I'm getting a steady 1.5 MB/Sec over wireless G (bridge).


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## lawilson2 (Oct 6, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> TivoHD & Series3 MRV/TTG/TTCB: FAQ + Discussion
> 
> Instructions for calculating MRV and TTG throughput, from the above link:


I used this equation for an HD transfer from my S3 to my Tivo HD. The 1 hour HD show was 6.47GB, and took 38 minutes to transfer. After the calculation, I came up with 22Mbps, or 2.75MB/sec.

Both Tivo's are hooked up via ethernet to a Slingbox Turbo Powerline adapter, which is rated for up to 85Mbps.

All in all, I'm very happy with a 38 minute transfer time for an HD show; not bad at all!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> I am transfering a 6GB/hr show at about 9GB/hr from an HD to an S3 using a good 100mb+ wired network incl. a GB switch and a 100mb switch. That's up around 20mbps, which is passable.
> 
> Actually, I wonder if transfer bit rates vary with program bit rate. TiVo may choose to loaf a 2.5mbps program @ 4-5mbps, while stepping it up to 20mbps+ for full bit rate HD recordings.
> 
> ...


As I am going through MRV in everyday life, anecdotally I think I am seeing some cleverness in transfer speed.

I'd ask folks to look for:

Faster transfer rate when watching the transferring program (hi def), esp. when not far from end of "buffer". Example: I've seen the rate go from ~1.1X before starting to watch program to ~1.5X while watching program.

Min. transfer rates resulting in SD programs transferring @ 3-4X while HD programs transfer in the 1-1.5X range.

The above refers to MRV between hi def TiVoes. S2s (240) as servers to S3/HD are much slower and rate depends heavily on USB-ethernet adapter model.


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## fatespawn (Oct 14, 2007)

zimrules1 said:


> My simple test is connect to my S3 via the webpage:
> 
> https://<my_tivo_ip>/nowplaying/index.html
> 
> ...


I tried the same thing. My results were about 1.3 MB/Sec downloading a 3.x GB HD show on a G-network.

It was interesting to see the data rate drop SIGNIFICANTLY unless both tuners were tuned to NON receiving stations. I have my TivoHD hooked up OTA and when both tuners were tuned to "non-stations" i was getting the 1300 KB/sec as reported by firefox.

When tuned to a single HD station, the date rate dropped to ~850 KB/sec and tuning the second tuner to another HD stations the rate dropped further to ~730 KB/sec.

I figure that translates into about 10.5 mb/s.... or just slightly slower than 802.11b (theoretically speaking of course).

That's pretty lame if you ask me.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I just noticed that TTG from my S3 is faster if I play a recording (any recording) on the S3 while I'm doing the transfer. Odd. I get about 12 mbps if I'm in the menus, if I navigate in the menus it drops every time the TiVo does something, but if I play a show, I get about 14-15 mbps.

I wonder why.


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## TiivoDog (Feb 14, 2007)

I have several Tivo different Tivo units with noted transfer speeds for comparison:

S3 (Wired) to S3 (Wired)
- SD 30 Min Show takes 3 minutes to transfer
- HD 30 Min Show takes 15 minutes to transfer​
S2DT (Wired) to S3 (Wired) 
- SD 30 Min Show takes 6 Minutes to transfer​
S2 (Wired USB) to S3 (Wired)
- SD 30 Min Show takes 30 Minutes to transfer​
S2 (Wireless G USB) to S3 (Wired)
- SD 30 Min Show takes 32 Minutesto transfer​


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I just noticed that TTG from my S3 is faster if I play a recording (any recording) on the S3 while I'm doing the transfer. Odd. I get about 12 mbps if I'm in the menus, if I navigate in the menus it drops every time the TiVo does something, but if I play a show, I get about 14-15 mbps.
> 
> I wonder why.


I noticed a larger pick up in rate (~40-50%,) though I only checked that by watching the recording actually transfering. I thought it _might _ be a clever idea to put more priority on a transfer that was being watched to ensure a good buffer?


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## shadowboxer777 (Oct 24, 2007)

My Tivo is now transferring at a whopping 1.12 MB/s that's a little under 10% of the 100Mb/s Connection that the TiVo has.

I did call tivo, and their response is this:

TiVo is performing an encryption on the outgoing stream as the file is being transferred out over the ethernet port, this means that there will be a high cpu utilization on the TiVo during transfers which may also result in slow menu responses.

TiVo is aware of this issue and is working to resolve it; in the meantime, you can try to tune to a non received station (grey screen). which might up your bandwidth a little.

good luck!


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## BankZ (Aug 16, 2007)

I am getting about 1.2 MBps (~9.6 Mbps) on a wired 10/100 connection. Does that sound right? Should I be looking at my network to see if I can speed things up?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

BankZ said:


> I am getting about 1.2 MBps (~9.6 Mbps) on a wired 10/100 connection. Does that sound right? Should I be looking at my network to see if I can speed things up?


 If that's THD->THD that sounds about right. If that's S3->S3 it's about half what I get on average. As mentioned before there are many factors affecting transfers including what your Tivos are tuned to and doing at the time of transfers, so posting speeds without indicating all the details is really not that valuable.


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## BankZ (Aug 16, 2007)

That's THD -> PC


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

BankZ said:


> That's THD -> PC


 Then that's about right. You can probably speed things up by tuning your THD to channels you don't receive while the transfer happens.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

You'll get up to 10-11Mbps from TivoHD -> PC if both tuners are set to channels you do not receive.


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## Tico (Dec 10, 2002)

S3->PC with both tuners tuned to channels I don't recieve..

Averaged 22.1 mbps via DU meter for 6 transfers set up overnight.....


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

BlackBetty said:


> Anyone got Wireless N? I wonder what the speeds are like with N.


There is a HUGE difference between the speeds you get with the TiVo wireless G adapters and what you get off of an "N" protocol wireless router. We are talking the difference between waiting for a show to be almost over before watching it and being able to watch it in real time. With the "N" protocol the speeds are DOUBLE that of "real time" with the "G" wireless adapters from TiVo I was getting about 1/3 of that speed at best.

*Transfer of a one half hour Sitcom with N router and wireless G adapters from TIVo = 50 minutes

Transfer of a one half hour Sitcom with Direct Ethernet cable from Wireless N Router (bypass the wireless adapters) = 15 minutes!!!*

My setup: Apple Airport Extreme in the office wirelessly connected to another Apple Airport Extreme in my sound system rack in the living room. From there the second router is connected to the S3 TiVos with a direct ethernet cable connection (vs. using wireless G adapters). It would appear that the new "N" routers rival the speeds of a hardwired network. I'm beyond happy. Having to wait and wait and wait for the shows to transfer was making MRV a whole lot less useful. If you can get an N protocol router it's the next best thing to hardwired. :up:


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## FUBAR (Jul 5, 2002)

I'm getting around 850KB - 880KB a second from my series 3 that's wired into a G bridge, that's going to a G laptop.

I also have a computer plugged into a switch plugged into that bridge, and i'm getting about 1.9MB a second from that computer.


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## VideoGrabber (Sep 11, 2003)

S3 -> PC TTG hardwired via TiVoDesktop 2.5.1, I get:

= 14 MBit/sec if both tuners are running ~6 GB/hr
= 18 MBit/sec if only the background tuner is running (foreground idle) ~8 GB/hr
= 20 MBit/sec if both tuners are idle ~8.8 GB/hr
= 22 MBit sec if I disconnect the coax cable... for a few minutes ~9.7 GB/hr

In the last case, eventually the TiVo will become unhappy and start to search for a signal and complain, then the speeds drop back down again. So 20 MBit/sec is the best sustained rate I've been able to achieve.

- Tim


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## murryamorris (Feb 1, 2005)

bareyb said:


> There is a HUGE difference between the speeds you get with the TiVo wireless G adapters and what you get off of an "N" protocol wireless router. We are talking the difference between waiting for a show to be almost over before watching it and being able to watch it in real time. With the "N" protocol the speeds are DOUBLE that of "real time" with the "G" wireless adapters from TiVo I was getting about 1/3 of that speed at best.


Hmm, it must depend on the wireless setup. I have a wired S3 and a wireless bridge (G) on my HD and it is faster than realtime on MRV (best quality, NOT HD). HD is just about realtime on my transfers this way. Maybe it depends on the wireless setup or the router?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

murryamorris said:


> Hmm, it must depend on the wireless setup. I have a wired S3 and a wireless bridge (G) on my HD and it is faster than realtime on MRV (best quality, NOT HD). HD is just about realtime on my transfers this way. Maybe it depends on the wireless setup or the router?


For all intents and purposes my two S3's are wired together via the hub. So that accounts for the speed of my MRV transfers. I can't account for why my wireless transfers were so slow. I'm glad yours are faster though.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

murryamorris said:


> Hmm, it must depend on the wireless setup. I have a wired S3 and a wireless bridge (G) on my HD and it is faster than realtime on MRV (best quality, NOT HD). HD is just about realtime on my transfers this way. Maybe it depends on the wireless setup or the router?


Wireless throughput will vary somewhat by router and wireless signal strength.

Some cable providers also apply extra compression, reducing bitrates, and thus the bandwidth necessary to achieve real-time viewing. For example, if you take two users with the same 15Mbps wireless throughput that are MRV'ing a recording from TNTHD, the user on the TWC system with the compressed 13-15Mbps feed will be able to do realtime viewing, whereas the user on a Verizon FiOS system with the full-quality 19Mbps feed will not.


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## TreoFred (Mar 9, 2004)

FYI, for everybody looking for more speed, I highly recommend trying the Moca bridge route that a lot of Verizon FIOS users are mentioning. I was on the wireless G bandwagon, could not get HD real time between rooms and with all the walls in my house didn't think N would necessarily help (I already had a N router and N laptop to do some tests and I had a huge speed loss due to my house shape.)

Anyway, I was thinking of trying powerline when I saw the Moca option listed in the FAQ (the motorola NIM-100). I got 3 from Ebay (one from my central switch, one for each of my S3) and it rocks: it get 250 Mbps between each S3 node !

A couple of notes too since I've seen things written which turned out untrue for me:

- _NIM is only for FIOS. _No, they were pretty much for anybody that has Coax.
- _NIM does not work with Cable modem. _Wrong, I have my cable modem connected through the same Coax as the NIM with absolutely no problem and no performance issue.
- _NIM needs to be connected to a coax splitter at each node. _Wrong in my case. Currently, I have the Coax that use to feed my TiVos and my cable modem going in the NIM cable In, and I added a short coax from the cable out of the NIM back to the cable modem and S3, no issue.
- _Moca signal cannot go through amplifier, the digital signal is too degraded. _Again, wrong in my case. I have one NIM on a non amplified split coax strand (the one to the Cable modem) and the other two on the amplified strand. Works perfectly.

Anyway, I can now watch HD real time and even fast forward through some commercial in a long enough program.

Just thought it might help people looking for alternatives.


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## Oreo2001 (Sep 17, 2006)

Was wondering why when I transfer a show from my S3 to tivo Hd it takes probably 60-70 minutes for a 30 minute show in Hd while if I transfer the same show from my tivo hd to tivo s3 it takes about 15 minutes. I have a powerline 1.0 setup for my house that states around 30-35 MB/s for each outlet. COuld it be that the larger harddrive of the S3 makes it faster? Thanks for any help.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Oreo2001 said:


> Was wondering why when I transfer a show from my S3 to tivo Hd it takes probably 60-70 minutes for a 30 minute show in Hd while if I transfer the same show from my tivo hd to tivo s3 it takes about 15 minutes. I have a powerline 1.0 setup for my house that states around 30-35 MB/s for each outlet. COuld it be that the larger harddrive of the S3 makes it faster? Thanks for any help.


Powerline (Homeplug) 1.0 networks are typically slower than WiFi. In your case, it sounds like your upstream throughput from each location is very different. I suspect you would see a very different result if you swapped the locations of your S3 and TivoHD.

Be wary of the marketing materials for these adapters. You'll see 54Mbps quoted for 802.11g, but about 33Mbps of that is dedicated to error correction and protocol overhead, leaving less than 21Mbps usable under ideal signal conditions. Similarly, you'll see 200Mbps quoted for Homeplug AV (powerline), but 120-160Mbps of that is dedicated to error correction, depending on line conditions. The same principle applies to other powerline (Homeplug), wireless (802.11g, 802.11n), and phone line (HomePNA) solutions.

I network my boxes using the Motorola NIM100 used by FiOS and periodically sold on ebay. These boxes operate at up to 270Mbps internally, but about 100Mbps of that is reserved for error correction. Real world network throughput with the NIM100 is 100Mbps -- 88-90Mbps after subtracting TCP overhead -- due to the 100Mbps ethernet jack.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

These THD transfer speeds are just too darn slow. I hope TiVo can tweak the software to get 60&#37;+ more speed out of TTG and 30%+ out of MRV.

(on wired 100mb+ networks.)


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

I tuned both tuners to channels I do not receive and it makes a substantial improvement for my S3->PC transfers of HD content. Seemed to make big improvement. 

Queued transfers went from about 0.75 realtime to 1.2-1.25 realtime. 

I wish I tried this last night when I batched up everything on the bedroom unit which is full.

I know I'm gonna hit the memory leak which eventually stops the queue after about 18-20 hours transferring!

Wired gigabit NIC (Intel EEPro) + Dlink gigabit 8 port switches (2 hops to get to the bedroom tivo)


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## OneGr8Mick (Feb 22, 2007)

I am using an MoCa wired config with 3 NIM100 routers and TTG with a PC on Linksys Wireless G.

I used Reno 911:Miami 1:40 HD, not sure on the file size, It was Stars HD I believe.

S3-HD 45 mins
HD-PC 2:45 ish
PC-S3 2:30 ish
HD-S3 50 mins
S3-PC 2:35

The only problem I seem to be having is with the PC - tivo and vise versa. I should be able to set up the final NIM100 w/pc sometime this week or weekend at the latest and then will post the new TTG, TTCB speeds.


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## robostock (Feb 8, 2008)

bkdtv said:


> I network my boxes using the Motorola NIM100 used by FiOS and periodically sold on ebay. These boxes operate at up to 270Mbps internally, but about 100Mbps of that is reserved for error correction. Real world network throughput with the NIM100 is 100Mbps -- 88-90Mbps after subtracting TCP overhead -- due to the 100Mbps ethernet jack.


I just picked up a nim100 and am getting about 14Mbps with both tuners on SD or channel 0.

The hookup is coax>nim100 (coax and cat5e)>S3>Actiontec>PC.

Also, I ran cat5e directly from the S3 to the Actiontec and the speed was the same.

I'm using Desktop 2.5.1 if that makes any difference.

Is there any other tweak I have to do? Reset S3?

I've reset my Actiontec after the initial connection to the NIM100 too.

But I can't seem to get anywhere near that speed. Any ideas?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

robostock said:


> I just picked up a nim100 and am getting about 14Mbps with both tuners on SD or channel 0.
> 
> The hookup is coax>nim100>S3 (coax and cat5e).
> 
> ...


 The speeds bkdtv was referring to are raw TCP speeds if you use a TCP speed measure tool such as "netio". Transfers to/from S3s are limited not by the NIM100s but by the Tivos themselves.


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

TiivoDog said:


> S2 (Wired USB) to S3 (Wired)
> - SD 30 Min Show takes 30 Minutes to transfer​


Is this speed still valid for 9.3 loads?

Is this speed approximate also for THD --> S2 (Wired USB)

[NG]Owner


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

[NG]Owner;6176958 said:


> Is this speed still valid for 9.3 loads?
> 
> Is this speed approximate also for THD --> S2 (Wired USB)


I haven't seen numbers posted for 9.3 yet.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

OneGr8Mick said:


> I am using an MoCa wired config with 3 NIM100 routers and TTG with a PC on Linksys Wireless G.
> 
> I used Reno 911:Miami 1:40 HD, not sure on the file size, It was Stars HD I believe.
> 
> ...


so it only takes 2.5 minutes to go from the PC to the S3 or the S3 to the PC? Mine does it faster than real time but not that fast.

edit: that can't be over 2 hours is it? that would be too long and 2.5 minutes would seem too quick. My transfers to and from my S3 boxes with a PC running TiVo Desktop 2.6 all occur in faster than realtime. So I can start watching and never have to worry about it pausing to fill the buffer. The TiVoHD though is another story. Those are half the speed of my S3 units.


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## memn0ch (Nov 2, 2003)

Has 9.4 helped with THD networking speeds at all?


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

Let's bounce this thread up since 11.0 has come out. We need some more datapoints for 11.0 performance.

Last night I transfered two CBS HD shows (1080i) from one TivoHD to another TivoHD. 100 Mb/s wired network.

The diagonostics page on the receiving Tivo (which was reset to zero post upgrade, I checked) this morning showed over 21Mb/s transfer rate. That's easily real time watching, and likely skipping commercials as well. Plus both HDs were recording something while the transfer was taking place.

I'm thinking that's an improvement.

[NG]Owner


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## Scyber (Apr 25, 2002)

I haven't checked the transfer rates yet, but I was able to transfer an HD show this morning and FF through the commercials without having to pause. This is a definite improvement.

I have 2 TiVo HDs and I was never able to do this before. I haven't changed anything with my network recently.


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

Yep, I agree. The transfer speed under diagnostics has increased to 23.xx Mb/s. Impressive.

[NG]Owner


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

I had a S3 and Tivo HD and just added a second S3. All 3 now have the new 11v software. Checked transfers last night and between the 2 S3 units it reported 50.15 Mb/s. Between the Tivo HD and the S3 units is usually in the 35.x Mb/s range.

That 50 Mb/s speed was with no channels tuned and no watching on either S3. The ota recordings are usually in the 5.5 -7.0 Gb range for a 1 hour program. They are hardwired on my network and routed through an 8 port switch.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dssturbo1 said:


> I had a S3 and Tivo HD and just added a second S3. All 3 now have the new 11v software. Checked transfers last night and between the 2 S3 units it reported 50.15 Mb/s. Between the Tivo HD and the S3 units is usually in the 35.x Mb/s range.
> 
> That 50 Mb/s speed was with no channels tuned and no watching on either S3. The ota recordings are usually in the 5.5 -7.0 Gb range for a 1 hour program. They are hardwired on my network and routed through an 8 port switch.


 Those numbers seem awfully high, can you double check from Network Diagnostics that's indeed what you are getting? SD transfers are quite a bit faster than HD transfers but I don't think I've ever achieved anywhere near 50 Mbps S3->S3 with all tuners tuned to channels I don't receive and transferring an SD program. For me in normal operating mode (tuners tuned to and perhaps recording HD channels) and transferring HD shows I usually get around 22-24 Mbps for S3->S3. For SD transfers I can get 30-40 Mbps at most.
If that is indeed what you are getting then what's your secret? Do you have non-stock drives in your S3s?


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

sure i will recheck the Network Diagnostic transfer numbers on Wednesday.

The older S3 has the stock internal drive with an added esata 750 gb drive. the second S3 i just added last week and it is stock. The Tivo HD is stock too.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

moyekj, ok rechecked this morning, here's the info.

S3 #1 has ota input no cable. stock internal drive with added external esata enclosure that i put a Seagate 750 GB 7200rpm 16mb cache in. It currently has about 80 HD programs and 25 SD programs stored on it.

Tivo HD = THD. with ota input no cable with stock drive. It has about 15 30 munite HD recordings stored on it.

S3 #2 with stock internal drive. It has no ota or cable coax feeds. I only use it to transfer programs into that were recorded on the S3 #1 and THD units. It currently has about 25 hours of HD programs stored in it.

All 3 units are hardwired through a cheap dynex 8 port switch that my computer is on and connected to dsl.

I used a 30 minute HD recording of According to Jim. It was recorded from the local ABC station in 720p originally on the S3 #1 and had a file size of 3.6 Gb as noted from the info of the program data on the S3 #1 unit. The S3 #1 and THD were both set on blank channels with no input, I usually use channels 0 and 1.

I transferred the 30 minutes of According to Jim 720p HD from the S3 #1 to the S3 #2.
The Network Diagnostics on the S3 #2 show it took 9 Min 10 sec and gave 51.25 Mb/s as transfer speed.

For the same program from the S3 #1 to the THD took 11 min 35 sec and 40.59 Mb/s transfer speed.

Then same program from the THD to the S3 #2 it took 11 Min 41 sec and 40.27 Mb/s transfer speed.

And finally back from the S3 #2 to the S3 #1 it was 9 Min 25 sec and 49.92 Mb/s transfer speed.

sorry for the long post just trying to get all the info. I'll try an intensive transfer like recording 2 ota HD programs while watching a precorded program and transferring another one and get back to you on that scenario, i'm sure it will cut down on transfer sppeds quite a bit.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dssturbo1, thanks for taking the time and posting all the details. That's very interesting indeed. I will have to run my own similar experiment to see if I get anywhere near those kind of numbers for HD transfers with 11.0 software. Those numbers are much higher compared to a couple of releases ago when I did some extensive experimentation. In that experiment I was getting at most 30 Mbps for 1080i transfers under optimal conditions, a little faster for 720p and faster still for 480i.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

sure yw no problem. ok, a little more testing...

set the S3 #1 and THD to record an HD program on each of their ota atsc tuners and while watching/outputting a prerecorded HD program on both units too. Then transferred Eli Stone a 1 hour 720p HD program from the S3 #1 to the THD. And got Network Diagnostics for the transfer at 36 Min 39 sec with 26.5 Mb/s transfer speed.

So that's quite a bit slower then the 40.59 Mb/s transfer speed I got earlier with no tuners used/no recording/no viewing on both units. 

Then I transferred that 1 hour Eli Stone program with the S3 #1 to S3 #2, the S3 #1 was recording 2 HD programs and ouputting a HD prerecorded program, the S3 #2 as mentioned does not have inputs so I could only set it to output a prerecorded program. It took 22 Min 43 sec with a transfer speed of 42.40 mb/s. Still pretty good but slower then the previous ~50 Mb/s using no tuners/recording/viewing options.

The Eli Sone program was listed as 7.03 Gb on the original S3 #1. But when transferred the info shows 6.67 Gb on the THD or S3 #2 ?? 

Why do programs lose file size when transferred??


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

My testing with v11 software:
* All units involved tuned to channels I don't receive
* All speeds obtained from Network Diagnostics following a transfer
S3-S3 over MOCA: 1hr 480i & 1hr 1080i transfers both clocked in @35Mbps
S3-HDXL via Gigabit switch: Same 1hr 480i & 1hr 1080i transfers both clocked in @40Mbps

So it looks like my S3-HD results are on par with Dssturbo1 results and perhaps if I put both S3s on same switch I would get 50 Mbps between them.
So compared to my previous testing there is no doubt that speeds have improved with v11.0 software.

NOTE: Under normal conditions (all tuners tuned to HD channels) I'm getting ~25Mbps for S3-S3 transfers and ~22Mbps for S3-HDXL transfers, which is a slight improvement over previous versions.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Hey guys. I'm trying to increase the download speeds from Amazon Unbox to my TiVos in the living room. I read on the Apple site that you can put two Airports in "Bridge Mode" and create a "roaming network". Everything is hardwired together including the two Airports. I would go from one of the LAN ports on the AE in the office to the WAN port on the AE in the living room and set up the AE in the living room as a bridge. The black lines are CAT 6 cables. I drew up a network plan (actually cut and pasted a bunch of images from Google) and I'm wondering if at least theoretically, will this work?


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

The above configuration will work but there may be many bottlenecks - 
Your setup will only improve the speed if the wireless signal from the airport office was too low or being interfered with. If the modem is able to download faster than G wireless speeds then you will still suffer from similar speed as you have now moved the bottleneck to a different position. The new setup will probably create a more stable connection to the Tivo but if you are going through the trouble to run that ethernet cable from the office why not just attach a hub/switch to it and wire the Tivo directly?

An even better solution would be to use ethernet over powerline adapters plugged into the office airport and dump wireless all together. Then you don't need to run the network cable or buy a new airport!


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

ciper said:


> The above configuration will work but there may be many bottlenecks -
> Your setup will only improve the speed if the wireless signal from the airport office was too low or being interfered with. If the modem is able to download faster than G wireless speeds then you will still suffer from similar speed as you have now moved the bottleneck to a different position. The new setup will probably create a more stable connection to the Tivo but if you are going through the trouble to run that ethernet cable from the office why not just attach a hub/switch to it and wire the Tivo directly?
> 
> An even better solution would be to use ethernet over powerline adapters plugged into the office airport and dump wireless all together. Then you don't need to run the network cable or buy a new airport!


Thanks for the response ciper. Some thoughts... I already own the two Airports so I won't have to buy them and I can't dump wireless because I need it for my laptop and the Airport in the living room is where I spend most of my time on the laptop. I suppose I could simply lose one of the AE's and ONLY use the one in the living room, but that would require a cable going to and from the AE in the living to my Switch.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

bareyb said:


> I already own the two Airports so I won't have to buy them. I can't dump wireless because I need it for my laptop.


Ahh I see. I meant dump wireless to the Tivo though, you can still use it for other devices.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

ciper said:


> Ahh I see. I meant dump wireless to the Tivo though, you can still use it for other devices.


The TiVos are hardwired together through the Airport in the living room. The only wireless part of their path from the internet if between the two Airiports which would be removed by hardwiring the two Airports together.

It has occurred to me that I can remove the Airport in the office and run cables to and from the Airport in the living room back to my switch in the office. One Airport would probably be enough with "N" enabled and I'd have a "Spare" in case the AE in the living room ever breaks...


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

bareyb said:


> I read on the Apple site that you can put two Airports in "Bridge Mode" and create a "roaming network". Everything is hardwired together including the two Airports. I would go from one of the LAN ports on the AE in the office to the WAN port on the AE in the living room and set up the AE in the living room as a bridge. The black lines are CAT 6 cables. I drew up a network plan (actually cut and pasted a bunch of images from Google) and I'm wondering if at least theoretically, will this work?


I don't know about Airport's but with every other wireless router with which I am familiar that support bridge mode, the two devices are NOT hardwired. They use the Wireless network to speak with each other and provide hardwired access to other devices on either side of the wireless link. (Basically you use a wireless bridge between two hardwired network segments, thus the name of the mode)

If you have Ethernet at the location of the DVRs, I would think another gigabyte switch, or using the airport as a switch with its other features disabled would be what gives you the fastest transfers.

Check postings by bedelman, he has a similar setup and has described it a time or two. You might even consider PMing him. Bob is very knowledgeable with Apple products and very helpful.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

CuriousMark said:


> I don't know about Airport's but with every other wireless router with which I am familiar that support bridge mode, the two devices are NOT hardwired. They use the Wireless network to speak with each other and provide hardwired access to other devices on either side of the wireless link. (Basically you use a wireless bridge between two hardwired network segments, thus the name of the mode)
> 
> If you have Ethernet at the location of the DVRs, I would think another gigabyte switch, or using the airport as a switch with its other features disabled would be what gives you the fastest transfers.
> 
> Check postings by bedelman, he has a similar setup and has described it a time or two. You might even consider PMing him. Bob is very knowledgeable with Apple products and very helpful.


Thanks Mark. The Airport in the living room would indeed be a "slave" only. It will basically act as switch but also broadcast wireless to that part of the house. The router in the office would supply the DHCP and NAT capabilities.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

bareyb said:


> It has occurred to me that I can remove the Airport in the office and run cables to and from the Airport in the living room back to my switch in the office. One Airport would probably be enough with "N" enabled and I'd have a "Spare" in case the AE in the living room ever breaks...


That or keep the office airport and run cables directly to the Tivo 



CuriousMark said:


> I don't know about Airport's but with every other wireless router with which I am familiar that support bridge mode, the two devices are NOT hardwired. They use the Wireless network to speak with each other and provide hardwired access to other devices on either side of the wireless link.


This is the correct use of the term "bridged" rather than stricly AP mode.



bareyb said:


> Thanks Mark. The Airport in the living room would indeed be a "slave" only. It will basically act as switch but also broadcast wireless to that part of the house. The router in the office would supply the DHCP and NAT capabilities.


This type of configuration is not typically referred to as a bridge. Rather you are converting the wireless router into an Access point. By far the easiest way to do this is to give the second airport a unique IP, disable its dhcp server and then connect a LAN port on the master airport to a LAN port on the slave unit leaving the WAN port on the slave unused.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

ciper said:


> That or keep the office airport and run cables directly to the Tivo
> 
> This is the correct use of the term "bridged" rather than stricly AP mode.
> 
> This type of configuration is not typically referred to as a bridge. Rather you are converting the wireless router into an Access point. By far the easiest way to do this is to give the second airport a unique IP, disable its dhcp server and then connect a LAN port on the master airport to a LAN port on the slave unit leaving the WAN port on the slave unused.


Thank you for the clarification. I'm obviously new at this and I don't know all the terms yet. I did not realize in access mode that you connect through the LAN port and not the WAN. Man I hope I don't burn something up... 

Speaking of being new at this... Upon further research I just discovered that with two Airports you can run one of them in "G" mode and the other one in "N" mode. This would be absolutely perfect if it works. My son's Wii uses "G" and my laptop uses "N"

Can I do that? I assume the two routers would have to have different names on the network no? Is this a better scenario? And thank you for the advice. I'm really learning a lot here.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

bareyb said:


> I did not realize in access mode that you connect through the LAN port and not the WAN. Man I hope I don't burn something up...


Don't worry. That way will work but its not ideal because the traffic is being "processed" twice on it's way to the internet. It can cause strange things to happen so change it to the LAN port if you can, you may need a cross over cable if they wont get a link.

Speaking of being new at this... Upon further research I just discovered that with two Airports you can run one of them in "G" mode and the other one in "N" mode. This would be absolutely perfect if it works. My son's Wii uses "G" and my laptop uses "N"

Can I do that? I assume the two routers would have to have different names on the network no? Is this a better scenario? And thank you for the advice. I'm really learning a lot here. [/QUOTE]
Most N routers allow G connections. If you set both routers to have the exact same wireless settings EXCEPT CHANNEL it would allow you to roam seamlessly througout the house!


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

ciper said:


> This type of configuration is not typically referred to as a bridge. Rather you are converting the wireless router into an Access point. By far the easiest way to do this is to give the second airport a unique IP, disable its dhcp server and then connect a LAN port on the master airport to a LAN port on the slave unit leaving the WAN port on the slave unused.


According to one source I talked to, if you put the "Access Point" router into "OFF (Bridge)" mode, it turns the WAN port into a LAN port. If not, I can always plug in through the LAN port. I'd like to keep that last LAN port open if possible in case we get another TiVo. 

So here's the tentative plan:

1. Hardwire AE 1 to AE 2 through the WAN port. 
2. Setup AE 2 as a "Bridge" (turn off DHCP)
3. Setup AE 1 to "Share a public IP"
4. Give both routers the same network name and password.
5. Setup one AE for "G" and one for "N 5Ghz"

It would be ideal if this worked... It just seems a bit complex...


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