# Game of Thrones 8x05 "The Bells" 5/12/19



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Welll, I guess it's official...Dany is as big a monster as Cersei.

Interesting that nobody will ever know what happened to Cersei (and Jaime), since they're buried under tons of rubble.

I had to laugh at Qyburn's fate...just casually murdered, really as an afterthought.

Arya did a whole lot of nothing...I wonder how her story will end.

And Jon. Jon, Jon, Jon. The man who brought the Mad Queen to King's Landing.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Welll, I guess it's official...Dany is as big a monster as Cersei.


In some ways, worse. Dany deliberately slaughtered people who were innocent and/or surrendered.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Interesting that nobody will ever know what happened to Cersei (and Jaime), since they're buried under tons of rubble.


Bran will know.

I'm glad Euron didn't (completely) finish Jaime. That would've been very annoying.

I thought it was fairly satisfying overall.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

We know now which way Danny's coin fell.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> In some ways, worse. Dany deliberately slaughtered people who were innocent and/or surrendered.


Well, Cersei did pretty much the same, when she fire-bombed the Sept and murdered everybody in and around it...Dany just had better weapons, and thus was able to slaughter more people. But I think they both have the same sociopathic disregard for human life in the abstract.

Seems the Hound and Dany were the only ones who got what they came to King's Landing for.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Will there be _any_ Lannisters left to pay Bronn?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Danny continued to attack after a surrender (the bells were rung) and her soldiers attacked an enemy that layed down their swords.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

I guess Tyrion failed her again..


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## Steve-O (Jul 2, 2011)

Yah, definitely not cool.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

This was really the only place they could go with Dany after the last few episodes, but how far she took it was a bit shocking. I came away with a positive vibe from the episode, at least until I read the next 30 pages here to convince me I’m wrong.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Are Dany's eyes green by any chance? Or maybe the dragon's?

There need no need for this to have been 80 minutes long or whatever it was. Arya running around doing nothing but getting killed. Pulling at the heartstrings with that woman with the walk of shame haircut she her daughter - why? I didn't know who they were before, I don't know now, I never cared. Lots of other scenes that were unnecessarily long.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

wprager said:


> Are Dany's eyes green by any chance? Or maybe the dragon's?
> 
> There need no need for this to have been 80 minutes long or whatever it was. Arya running around doing nothing but getting killed. Pulling at the heartstrings with that woman with the walk of shame haircut she her daughter - why? I didn't know who they were before, I don't know now, I never cared. Lots of other scenes that were unnecessarily long.


Definitely setting up Arya for next week. She and John both saw the queen's destruction up close.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Arya may kill a queen after all.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm still thinking Jon might end up being the one to kill Dany (the Law of the Most Tragic Outcome)...


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Dany lost it because she lost everything. And that includes Jon. Still, she deserves everything that's coming to her. Or does she even care now?

Curious why Jon did not question Varys' knowledge. Like, "where did you hear that?" Thought that was weird.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It's kind of stupid how it played out. I understand the anger and the need for revenge. So if she destroyed the Red Keep and there was a lot of innocent casualties as a result, I could certainly understand. But destroying the entire city methodically - street by street - didn't make sense regardless of how "mad" she was.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> Dany lost it because she lost everything. And that includes Jon. Still, she deserves everything that's coming to her. Or does she even care now?
> 
> Curious why Jon did not question Varys' knowledge. Like, "where did you hear that?" Thought that was weird.


Well, Tyrion admitted to Dany that he heard it from Sansa. By the time they were at the execution, it's easy to assume that Dany filled Jon in. She would not have missed the "I told you so" conversation!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Anubys said:


> It's kind of stupid how it played out. I understand the anger and the need for revenge. So if she destroyed the Red Keep and there was a lot of innocent casualties as a result, I could certainly understand. But destroying the entire city methodically - street by street - didn't make sense regardless of how "mad" she was.


Well Dany said if she can't rule by being loved, she'd rule by being feared. Anyone alive will definitely fear her now.

On a side note, it looks like the magic on the scorpions wore off as they were now missing easy shots were before they were making impossible ones.

Dany will definitely make Arya's list assuming she still has one.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Wow. That was brutal. It was harrowing. I don't know. It made me sad to see the ordinary citizens being slaughtered. It made me think of how the firebombing of German and Japanese cities in WWII must have been like.

Arya's trek through the burning, crumbling city was heartbreaking.

This episode was everything the Night King battle episode wasn't. This was great, disturbing tv.

I've crossed Daenerys Targaryen off my tv girlfriend list. She can add "Biggest A**hole in Westeros" to her long list of titles.

I have no clue as to how next Sunday's series finale will play out.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Well, Tyrion admitted to Dany that he heard it from Sansa. By the time they were at the execution, it's easy to assume that Dany filled Jon in. She would not have missed the "I told you so" conversation!


The scene I'm talking about is before the execution. When Jon first arrives.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm thinking Dany will kill Jon. After all, he's a threat to her throne. There's a scene where the Unsullied leader (Greyworm) starts killing those soldiers who have laid down their swords, and Jon tries to stop the slaughter, and Greyworm turns and see this and gives him a bad look.....he will most probably take that to Dany and she would now have the reason to eliminate him.....

In general, it was a grim episode. Most have believed, as I have, that Dany represented some good, and had good intentions. Maybe she did, and maybe she didn't, but the way it ended up was pretty gruesome. Too much coffee (Starbucks)?

I don't think next week's episode will any less grim, either - just a lot less death. Oh, there will still be death, just not a half a million or so....Either Dany kills Jon, or Jon kills Dany....that's where I think it will end.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I really don't get why Dany went street by street destroying the city. If she wanted to destroy Cersei and not accept her surrender, then destroy the Red Keep. Cersei didn't give a crap about King's Landing or the people in it, really. I guess it's just supposed to show that she is now the Mad Queen and the Kingslayer is dead. Long live the new Queenslayer!


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I think Jon pieced it together pretty quickly once Varys said he knew which way Jon's coin fell.

He might know nothing, but he's not a complete idiot.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Jon should have kept his big, dumb mouth shut.

Just a general question about the show's universe: How long has it been in GoT time since the first episode? Wasn't winter supposed to have come by now?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I didn’t like a lot of plot points but that was nonetheless one of the most mesmerizing, incredible episodes of a tv show ever. It was like the nuclear holocaust equivalent of a dumpster fire. They ruined lots of things I cared about with terrible writing but, wow, that was amazing.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

And, given that Dany's personally responsible for killing innocents, over a half million or so, and laying waste to the greatest city in Westeros, I wouldn't say Dany's as big a monster as Cersei, she's worse. Far worse...

Let's remember, Dany accomplished what Jamie prevented her Father from doing.....destroying the city.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Burn them all!!!!!! (At least we did get a few small glimpses of wildfire in it all).

There's absolutely no way Dany doesn't die now. Totly unnecessary on her part. Why not just save all of that fire for the red keep. Of course it wouldn't have been as interesting of an episode.

I was a bit sad we started out with losing Varys. I liked him a lot. So who died tonight? Varys, Jamie, Cersei, Euron, Hound, Mountain, Qyburn. Who else (no, I'm not counting Strictland...seems odd to have even introduced a named character and have him go nowhere)

I was confused when Dany called Grayworm Torgo Nudho. At first I thought it was his birthname he had given up. After some googling I see it's Grayworm in Valyrian. Had we heard he say that before?

Anyone else have issues with HBO Now tonight? It wouldn't work for me on 2 different Chromecasts on 2 TVs. Tried hard reboots of both Chromecast and my phone. Since I purchased my HBO Now sub through Google play, I couldn't even seem to get my account to work on my wife's iPhone. I logged in and it recognized me but wouldn't play until I selected my subscription service, which wasn't even in the option list. I wasnt about to watch on my phone (would've been a crappy was to see this episode). Horray for being an honest paying customer and getting screwed over. Eventually had to sail the seas and plunder the episode.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Just a general question about the show's universe: How long has it been in GoT time since the first episode? Wasn't winter supposed to have come by now?


7 or 8 years or so. In the first season, Arya was about 10 or 11, and when people were complaining about her and Gendry getting together, the producers pointed out that she's now over 18.

Winter has come. It arrived at the end of season 6. Apparently, King's Landing is far enough south that it doesn't get particularly harsh winters.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I think the one given is that both Jon and Dany don't make it. Which one? I'd say Jon wins the Game, but who knows.

My money is on him killing her in the Throne Room.



LordKronos said:


> Anyone else have issues with HBO Now tonight?


Couldn't get the episode to load. The app loaded fine, but the episode just buffered endlessly. I started about 30-40 minutes after the hour. After about five minutes, I gave up and watched it on Comcast thru my TiVo. I prefer the app, the resolution is higher.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

At least we could see what was going on this episode!

Drogon must have gotten outfitted with stealth technology in between episodes. He also did some impressive mean mugging right before he roasted Varys.

I thought Varys was trying to poison Dany when his little kitchen spy girl said Dany had hardly eaten.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dany flips everybody the bird and takes her dragon and armies back overseas where people are loyal to her and burns Winterfell to the ground as a parting gift to Jon and Sansa for betraying her.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Couldn't get the episode to load. The app loaded fine, but the episode just buffered endlessly. I started about 30-40 minutes after the hour. After about five minutes, I gave up and watched it on Comcast thru my TiVo. I prefer the app, the resolution is higher.


I watched on HBOGo on my Apple TV and it worked fine. I started about 20 minutes after the start.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I thought the leader of the Golden Company was supposed to be more significant. Greyworm made sure he wasn't.

BTW, episode title is The Bells.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

There were some really satisfying scenes. For some reason, I really like the nameless scorpion commander guy ordering "fire!" right as he is engulfer in flames. 

And of course the scene where (Qyburn) is talking Cersei. All we need is one good shot...(uh yeah, about that.) Euron killed one dragon, he can kill another....(uh, your grace....funny story...) 

On the other hand it was annyoying to see Euron die thinking he had a victory.

I think the thing I'm most anxoius about now...what happens to Drogon when Dany dies.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> I think the thing I'm most anxoius about now...what happens to Drogon when Dany dies.


I assume we'll have some final shot of him flying off into the skies.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> On the other hand it was annyoying to see Euron die thinking he had a victory.


He was the type that no matter how he died, he would have done so thinking he had a victory.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought Varys was trying to poison Dany when his little kitchen spy girl said Dany had hardly eaten.


Oh, I absolutely agree. Not only the line the girl said about Dany not eating, but when Varys replied, "We'll try again at supper", I don't think that leaves much doubt what they were attempting to do.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still thinking Jon might end up being the one to kill Dany (the Law of the Most Tragic Outcome)...


After Dany kills Arya?


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Now THAT was an episode! Wow. Just wow.

Dany the Rage Queen. This character development felt earned. We've seen glimpses of this from the earlier seasons, and the events over the last few episodes made this pretty much inevitable. Dany's Qarth "hallucination" of the throne room buried in what we thought was snow, came true, but with ashes instead of snow.

Edited to add: The Tyrion and Jamie scene was so well done. From the framing (Tyrion standing above his older brother for once) to their heartfelt goodbye, knowing they wouldn't see each other again, it was a sweet moment.

Jamie stays true to his character. He will do anything for Cersei. He tried not to be that person, but in the end, it just isn't who he is.

Clegane Bowl fulfilled. The brotherly hate was forged in fire and was finished in fire. And along the way he has a come to Jesus chat with Arya.

Arya chooses life instead of death. Finally. The ending moments of this episode felt like the ending moments of Gladiator.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Does anyone know if there is any significance in Varys removing his rings as he hears the soldiers approaching? Other than a device to show he knows that his end has arrived?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That was awesome. 

And made sense. They got a lot right. 

You have the dragon, you win. She saw her friend and dragon die and didn’t immediately rush into battle. She strategically took out the boats and the scorpions. 

Cersei didn’t surrender. Dany didn’t back off and be open to more lies and tricks. She ended it. As she should have. 

That was great.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

So the last message Varys was working on before he was executed. While he lit it on fire and stuck it in the bowl, he covered the bowl before it would have burned completely... Is someone going to find it and send it off anyway?

Is Tyrion now the last living Lannister? Unfortunately he will probably never know this because he thinks Jaime got Cersei out. Was Tyrion's request to Davos just to get the boat down there for Jaime to use?

Dany seems to just be finishing off what her father failed to do. While I loved this episode I hate that she did what she did. I guess there was no other way to go. I'm rooting for Jon now to take her out.

For a bit I thought HBO was going to do Arya dirty and kill her in the devastation caused by Drogon. That's no way for the person who killed the Night King to go out.

Sooo, we all got Cleganebowl. Got a chuckle with Qyburn's death another when the Mountain took off his helmet. I guess it was appropriate that they fell to their death into a fire.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still thinking Jon might end up being the one to kill Dany (the Law of the Most Tragic Outcome)...


The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Does anyone know if there is any significance in Varys removing his rings as he hears the soldiers approaching? Other than a device to show he knows that his end has arrived?


I had the same question. It seemed significant somehow.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I also like how Jaime played out. I felt his bond to Cersei was too strong to change his course and glad they wrote it that way.

The brothers duel was satisfying. “Fraking die already!” And he has a knife through his head. Yeoouch!

I wonder if Dany was trying to kill Jon in her endless torching. Probably not but she certainly wasn’t doing her best (or much of anything) to ensure his survival. 

Davos survives another battle. Best fighter ever.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

DUSlider said:


> For a bit I thought HBO was going to do Arya dirty and kill her in the devastation caused by Drogon. That's no way for the person who killed the Night King to go out.


I was yelling at the screen that if she dies by falling rubble I was going to be really pissed. She really had nine lives and went though 8 1/2 of them in this episode.

I did think it was a little out of character for her to give up on her quest to kill Cercei so easily. I would have loved for The Hound to kill Cercei as she walked passed him. "This is for Arya Stark."  Of course Jamie and Cercei came into this world together. It's only fitting they go out together.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

That episode, wow


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Tyrion and Jaime was great. 

Trying to make us emotional about a brother/sister relationship was too much for me.

The spectacle was excellent.

But the story aspects and the events were terrible, the show was hanging on but fell off the cliff for me tonight.

Ultimately I'm pissed that they decided to end the show to soon just because they wanted to.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I figured she might flip out and take the Keep down, just because it had Cersi in it. But even with all the foreshadowing, I didn't expect her to go full Targaryan Mad Queen on the population. That's gonna lead to some 'awkwardness' later. 

And exactly where do they keep the iron throne? Is there still an iron throne to claim?


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

Writing was crap. They have ruined Tyrion's character. Arya scene drug on for no good reason. Dues Ex White Horse? wtf really?

Why would Tyrion sell on Varys, to save Dany's life I guess? Mustache twirling Euron Killjoy happens to swim all they way from his ship uninjured and with all his gear to the exact spot where Jamie is sneaking in! Sweet...not. 

1 dragon dead from ships alone and they scared off Dany and Drogon, but then she can take out all the ships and the towers without any risk, only like 3 shots taken? No backup defenses (scorpions) at the Red Keep? Same military genius that rushes an entire Dothraki cavalry into the dark in a mad dash against unknown undead army head on.....

This show used to be so good. Cersei and Jamie just dying under rubble after all that.....lame. Dany not heading straight for the Red Keep and taking out Cersei and Qyburn was really hollywood stupid. If you're mad and you can hit who you're mad it with impunity....then you hit them.

What made sense to me or was decent? CleganeBowl was good. Dany going nuts was expected. Greyworm pissed was expected. Varys being right was good for sure. Special effects and impact of "horrors of war" sure that was felt.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'm hoping that Jon, Tyrion, Ser Davos et all don't just go back to Dragonstone and say, dude you shouldn't have done that.

There's no way that they can be on her side now.

I thought it was a pretty good episode story wise, and obviously amazing visual wise.

I thought that the way Drogon defeated the Iron Fleet was not too terribly far fetched. Basically after a few missed shots, Drogon was at their level, and coming in from the side. The Iron Fleet should have been in a circle, but In rows, they were easy targets. And Drogon picked them off 4-5 at a time, The ships also should have had multiple scorpions.

-smak-


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I did think it was a little out of character for her to give up on her quest to kill Cercei so easily. I would have loved for The Hound to kill Cercei as she walked passed him. "This is for Arya Stark."  Of course Jamie and Cercei came into this world together. It's only fitting they go out together.


I thought it was fine. I think it would have cheap for them to just run into each other in the hall of a crumbling building.

Once Jamie made it there, it was doubtful it would end any other way.

-smak-


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Now that's how you do a battle scene! This episode excelled in every way the Night King episode failed.

I feel they spent a lot of time justifying for us how evil Dany has become so they can kill her next episode. She's worse than the mad king. The whole Arya perspective was about showing us the destruction upon the innocents. They also gave us ample reason to not shed a tear over Grey Worm's inevitable death in the next episode. It's kind of a shame, I liked Grey Worm. There's really nobody worth a damn in camp Dany to care about. I'm sure Davos is going to jump ship in the first 5 minutes of the finale.

I'm surprised Dany didn't barbecue most of her own people. Her forces were engaged in combat all over the city and inside the red keep.

I'm glad for Dany's sake that she figured out the secret to how to defeat Scorpions that plagued her so much last episode. Must have used an invulnerability scroll. Or cast a confusion spell on all the scorpion operators. Or had a string of really good luck rolls. Whatever it was, it worked, and it worked well. Pity nobody thought to have even one scorpion tucked out of sight in the red keep.

Death of Jaime and Cersei was a reasonably good way for them to go out.

Hound versus Mountain battle scene was everything one could hope it would be. Death of Qyburn, also everything one could hope it would be.

Jon Snow really didn't do a whole lot. Next episode is going to be his turn to shine.

I'm not sure why Arya spent an entire season learning the ways of the faceless people, only to storm a castle in broad daylight without a disguise, telling the guards exactly who she is.

There's no way Dany survives to the end. I think Tyrion, Jon, and Arya _could_ all make it.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

'Twas William Congreve who wrote within his classic poem "The Mourning Bride" in 1697:
_"Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd,
Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd."_

If Jon had just kissed his aunt as he had done before, how much of this tantrum could have been avoided?

I thought Drogon should have hyperventilated about 1/4 of his way through the city, or Dany should have pulled over to re-fuel at some point.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

getreal said:


> If Jon had just kissed his aunt as he had done before, how much of this tantrum could have been avoided?


This dialog exchange would have been epic,

Dany: "_What am I to you?_"

Jon: "_You're my queen!_"

Dany: "_Am I nothing else?_"

Jon: "_My .... ummm.... Aunt?_"


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Arya did a whole lot of nothing...I wonder how her story will end.


Well, Arya did go to King's Landing to kill the queen...


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tlc said:


> Will there be any Lannisters left to pay Bronn?


Looks like Bronn is going to have to kill Daenerys in order to finally get his reward. 



Anubys said:


> It's kind of stupid how it played out. I understand the anger and the need for revenge. So if she destroyed the Red Keep and there was a lot of innocent casualties as a result, I could certainly understand. But destroying the entire city methodically - street by street - didn't make sense regardless of how "mad" she was.


She was already upset that the general Westerosi population didn't love her and worship her like she had been used to in Essos. She came to King's Landing looking for a fight, and I think actually got angry that the citizens there took that away from her by surrendering.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still thinking Jon might end up being the one to kill Dany (the Law of the Most Tragic Outcome)...


Nah, Arya kills Dany, and Jon has to execute Arya for the crime.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

So I guess Cersei was telling the truth about her pregnancy. Either that or she was delusional. It still didn't look like she was showing very much, if at all, which means we have now confirmed that Drogon had a bunch of babies who have been ferrying everyone around these past 8 episodes.

It would have been an interesting twist if Cersei's baby had followed the same path as Daenerys, being smuggled to Essos to flee being killed.

Even with all Arya has seen, I'm not sure she would unilaterally decide to kill Daenerys. I think either Sansa convinces her to do it or, more likely, Jon tries to kill Daenerys, and fails because he can't bring himself to go through with it. Daenerys then orders Jon's execution, and that prompts Arya to kill her.

The question is, does Drogon try torching only Arya for killing his mother or does he burn everything to the ground?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> BTW, episode title is The Bells.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I feel like we're due one more "faceless" killing.

When Jaime ran into Cersei, I thought that might be it (with Arya having found Jaime dying in the bowels of the Red Keep and took his face) and "he" would kill Cersei then Arya would remove the face and escape the city.

Since that didn't happen, I'm going to guess that Dany is killed by Arya when she's wearing the face of someone close to Dany. Perhaps Greyworm, maybe Missendai, or how about Drogo (I don't know if that's possible under the rules of the Faceless Men)?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

smbaker said:


> I'm not sure why Arya spent an entire season learning the ways of the faceless people, only to storm a castle in broad daylight without a disguise, telling the guards exactly who she is.


People didn't recognize her when she was living there, and nobody had seen her since then. So she didn't really have much to fear about that. I assume if Daenerys had not attacked, and she decided to go through with her plans, she would have been more sneaky once she had gotten close to Cersei. But there was no need to hide when in the midst of the scared populace, and it was more important to move quickly before the gates closed.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

That was a good tackle by the Hound to end the Cleganebowl.

Can we call it a sack?

Too soon?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Just a general question about the show's universe: How long has it been in GoT time since the first episode? Wasn't winter supposed to have come by now?


There are two versions of winter for Westeros. One is where it gets a little cold for a week or two here and there and then warms up again. Kind of like a Florida or Georgia version of winter. It gets cold and can snow a little but it doesn't get too cold and it doesn't stay cold too long. We have seen them go through a few of these over the course of the show. The 2nd version of winter is Winter (with a capital W). That's super cold and snowy and stays for a long time and it comes very rarely. A few in a normal person's lifetime. It's like a Minnesota version of winter but lasts longer. These are the winters that are feared. The fear is because the extended cold of true Winter allows the White Walkers to come south much farther than their normal range.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

If Viserys were alive, I wonder what his strongest feeling would be right now. Envy over what Daenerys had accomplished or satisfaction that she was now getting a taste of how he felt?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm now betting the house that Dany lives. She wanted to break the wheel of royal oppression but her path has come full circle and now she's the oppressive, murderous ruler. At least that's how I would end the show after this episode.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I don't get why people are surprised by Dany. It was completely in character for her to ignore the bells and burn the city down. She's always been ruthless to anyone who's opposed her. I've been trying to think of a single instance when she's shown any mercy to her enemies and I can't. Her response has always been, "Dracarys!"

Once she decided that she would have to rule by fear, destroying King's Landing made sense. It was her Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or in GoT terms, her Harrenhall.

As Leonard once told Penny about Sheldon, "It will shorten the war by 5 years and save millions of lives!"


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> I don't get why people are surprised by Dany. It was completely in character for her to ignore the bells and burn the city down. She's always been ruthless to anyone who's opposed her. I've been trying to think of a single instance when she's shown any mercy to her enemies and I can't. Her response has always been, "Dracarys!"


That's exactly the issue -- it would have been completely in character to be ruthless to those who opposed her, and not to show mercy to enemies. So if she has gone straight to the keep to get at Cersei, her enemy, even to be ruthless and burn up the collateral around her, that would have fit.

To ignore her enemies and those who opposed her to take the time to burn up innocents, that was what was jarring.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ct1 said:


> That's exactly the issue -- it would have been completely in character to be ruthless to those who opposed her, and not to show mercy to enemies. So if she has gone straight to the keep to get at Cersei, her enemy, even to be ruthless and burn up the collateral around her, that would have fit.
> 
> To ignore her enemies and those who opposed her to take the time to burn up innocents, that was what was jarring.


Yeah, this wasn't punishing her enemies. This was mass murder for the hell of it.

She could have killed Cersei. But she was having too much fun killing everybody else...who had already surrendered.

The discussion of whether Cersei is as bad as Dany reminds me of the arguments over Idi Amin back in the day.

"Amin isn't as bad as Hitler. Hitler killed six million Jews."

"But Amin didn't have ACCESS to six million Jews!"

I think given the same circumstances, Cersei would be just as bad as Dany. They're both psychopaths, driven by an overwhelming lust for power, and by love. They'll both do almost anything to get power, and they'll both do anything period when they lose what they love (even when it's their own fault).


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think given the same circumstances, Cersei would be just as bad as Dany. They're both psychopaths, driven by an overwhelming lust for power, and by love. They'll both do almost anything to get power, and they'll both do anything period when they lose what they love (even when it's their own fault).


Except this was inconsistent to Dany's character developed over many seasons.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, this wasn't punishing her enemies. This was mass murder for the hell of it.
> 
> She could have killed Cersei. But she was having too much fun killing everybody else...who had already surrendered.
> 
> ...


In fairness to Amin, a man could only eat so much before he's full! 

Rumor has it that the writers had a different way for Cersei to die: She was going to be on her tippy toes on a 2-foot stool trying to get something out of her closet. She trips and falls and hits her head. Dead before the battle began. So, you see, there was an even less satisfying ending for her!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I'm not sure why Arya spent an entire season learning the ways of the faceless people, only to storm a castle in broad daylight without a disguise, telling the guards exactly who she is.


I think that conversation was with a guard from Jon's troops as they passed through their own lines. No need for disguise and throwing the "Stark" name was the right "do you know who I am?" moment.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Varys spent his last few days writing to every Lord in the lands about Jon's true identity.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I think Varys spent his last few days writing to every Lord in the lands about Jon's true identity.


Agreed. It was only the last letter he burned. Many had already gone out.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I think Varys spent his last few days writing to every Lord in the lands about Jon's true identity.


I believe that Dany's realization that Jon, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys had betrayed her proved to her that she wouldn't be able rule seven kingdoms by diplomacy and being Ms. Nice Guy. She'd already lost the North because of betrayal and Varys had probably poisoned her claim to the throne in every land his spies could reach. To paraphrase the noted philosopher Popeye The Sailor, she took all she could stand and couldn't stand no more. So it became "Dracarys, b*tches!"

Cercei and the Iron Bank might as well have hired Girl Scout troop 103 to defend her and Kings Landing instead of the Golden Company.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> Except this was inconsistent to Dany's character developed over many seasons.


Except it's really not. She's always tended towards impulsive action and violence, tempered by the people around her. But those people are now either dead or pushed away, and there's nothing to restrain her negative impulses.


cheesesteak said:


> I believe that Dany's realization that Jon, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys had betrayed her proved to her that she wouldn't be able rule seven kingdoms by diplomacy and being Ms. Nice Guy. She'd already lost the North because of betrayal and Varys had probably poisoned her claim to the throne in every land his spies could reach. To paraphrase the noted philosopher Popeye The Sailor, she took all she could stand and couldn't stand no more. So it became "Dracarys, b*tches!"
> 
> Cercei and the Iron Bank might as well have hired Girl Scout troop 103 to defend her and Kings Landing instead of the Golden Company.


I don't really care why she decided to commit mass murder on a civilian population that had already surrendered. The moment she decided to commit mass murder on a civilian population that had already surrendered, she became the bad guy.

And when you're in a war with Cersei Lannister and you're the bad guy...wow.

Just, wow.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Maybe Cercei shouldn't have asked Missandei if she had any last words to say to Dany.

What makes no sense to me is why everybody automatically believes Jon's claim to the throne based on the story's origin - his best friend and his half brother. Especially with how thin and flimsy the Three Eyed Raven mythology has been laid out on the show. Maybe the TER is a more fleshed out, believable prophetic figure in the novels but on the show, he's just basically some weird dude in a wheelchair that only a handful of people know. Even if Sam has the document laying out Jon's claim it could easily be called a forgery.


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe Cercei shouldn't have asked Missandei if she had any last words to say to Dany.


This. I think this is what made Dani finally snap.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> So the last message Varys was working on before he was executed. While he lit it on fire and stuck it in the bowl, he covered the bowl before it would have burned completely... Is someone going to find it and send it off anyway?


Agree with other posts above, several raven-mails were sent. We just saw the last. In every scene of him, there were several sheets of paper shown.



PJO1966 said:


> Of course Jamie and Cercei came into this world together. It's only fitting they go out together.


Together, in the crypt/womb.



JohnB1000 said:


> But the story aspects and the events were terrible, the show was hanging on but fell off the cliff for me tonight.
> 
> Ultimately I'm pissed that they decided to end the show to soon just because they wanted to.


Disagree. I think they timed it well. I know several of you think they're rushing it, but all these parts fit together. Sure they could have stretched it out, but they aren't. Each episode leads to the next.



tomhorsley said:


> Nah, Arya kills Dany, and Jon has to execute Arya for the crime.


Not a chance on earth. They are two of the closest characters. Jon & Arya are soul brothers/sisters.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I was incorrectly suspecting that Jaime would tell Cersei about ringing the bells, and she would use that as a ruse to lure her enemies into an ambush.

And then I was thinking Dany was heading directly to the Red Keep, do not pass Go.

Maybe everyone is dead at the end.


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except it's really not. She's always tended towards impulsive action and violence, tempered by the people around her. But those people are now either dead or pushed away, and there's nothing to restrain her negative impulses.
> 
> I don't really care why she decided to commit mass murder on a civilian population that had already surrendered. The moment she decided to commit mass murder on a civilian population that had already surrendered, she became the bad guy.
> 
> ...


"Tended towards impulsive" and what we see now are sudden and inconsistent. Dany forgave Jorah, liberated slaves, even called herself protector of the seven kingdoms. And then this?

The strength of the show has been character development. It took many seasons for Jamie to be accepted as a good guy. This was almost flicking a switch.

The wow is the lazy writing.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Tending toward impulsive action and violence is a far cry from an hours long campaign of merciless slaughter of innocent people after having already won the throne. Especially an episode after wanting to give Cersei a chance to surrender to avoid *accidental *killing of innocents during warfare.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

The stupid, it burns.

It burns them all.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Tending toward impulsive action and violence is a far cry from an hours long campaign of merciless slaughter of innocent people after having already won the throne. Especially an episode after wanting to give Cersei a chance to surrender to avoid *accidental *killing of innocents during warfare.


But she never wanted to do that (give Cersei a chance to surrender); she wanted to just attack and kill anybody who happened to be in the area. She had to be talked into it, and you could tell that she didn't believe it would work and just did it basically to make her advisors shut up.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I was incorrectly suspecting that Jaime would tell Cersei about ringing the bells, and she would use that as a ruse to lure her enemies into an ambush.


Yes. A thousand times YES. I was more certain of this than any other theory I had about the show.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But she never wanted to do that (give Cersei a chance to surrender); she wanted to just attack and kill anybody who happened to be in the area. She had to be talked into it, and you could tell that she didn't believe it would work and just did it basically to make her advisors shut up.


and - when she agreed to do it - she said it's only because it's a good PR move.


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## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

I was hoping that when Qyburn came the final time to lead Cersei away from the Red Keep, that we would find out that he was Arya in disguise.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But she never wanted to do that (give Cersei a chance to surrender); she wanted to just attack and kill anybody who happened to be in the area. She had to be talked into it, and you could tell that she didn't believe it would work and just did it basically to make her advisors shut up.


She didn't think it would work but explicitly stated she still needed to give it a chance to avoid the killing of innocents.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I didn't like a lot of plot points but that was nonetheless one of the most mesmerizing, incredible episodes of a tv show ever. It was like the nuclear holocaust equivalent of a dumpster fire. They ruined lots of things I cared about with terrible writing but, wow, that was amazing.


You hit the nail on the head. The episode, if you took it out of context was amazingly done. I was sitting there thinking, that is what it has to feel like to be in a bombed out city. I think the Arya scenes were poinient in that respect. But I had a big "Lost" vibe with the last couple of Episoes, especially with Dany. We spent the last bunch of seasons rooting for her, and in the end, she ends up being as big a a-hole as the rest of them. It has felt like I was rooting for a different person. I guess death of loved ones at the hand of your enemies can do that to you, but still, to destroy King's Landing for really no apparent reason made little sense to me coming from the Dany we knew up until recently. Heck, does the Iron Throne even exist anymore? What is she even going to gain by it?

So I have a theory based on a comment from someone who'd seen the whole season and mentioned about the callbacks to season one. The opening scene, to me, was telling. You see Varys writing down that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne (he burns it at the end, but this is Vary's, so i think it's possible he sent his little birds out to some folks who didn't know). We also know that Tyrion, Sansa, Aria, Bran and of course, Jon know Jon's true identity. I can see Jon confronting Dany on the massacre and her arresting him (we know that Greyworm is on Dany's side, that's clear). During the ensuing trial (if there's one) one of the above mentioned who knows will end up rescuing Jon. Maybe Arya does. I haven't decided yet who will ultimately kill Dany, might be Jon, might be Sansa or Arya. Tyrion will ultimately defend Jon. Ultimately, I think the Seven Kingdoms have been destroyed, they will be independent, with Jon being King in the North. So a lot of this is a call back to what Ned found out in S1 and ultimately it will follow that similar pattern.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> Is Tyrion now the last living Lannister? Unfortunately he will probably never know this because he thinks Jaime got Cersei out


Well, the boat is probably still there. And he knew they'd be heading through the tunnels and if the tunnels are all collapsed, he could probably 95% confident.



smbaker said:


> They also gave us ample reason to not shed a tear over Grey Worm's inevitable death in the next episode.


Did we specifically see grayworm do something bad. I guess he threw the first spear at the surrenderred soldiers, but at least we didn't see him hurt any civilians, did we?



Shakhari said:


> I've been trying to think of a single instance when she's shown any mercy to her enemies and I can't. Her response has always been, "Dracarys!"


Season 7. Other than the 2 Tarleys that would kneel, Dany showed forgiveness to every other soldier/Lord who was actively fighting against her. This was killing people who werent opposed to her...just helpless and seeking protection under her enemy (because really what else could they do, flee into the hands of the invading force and hope they were kind? Doesn't seem like a sound plan)



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I was incorrectly suspecting that Jaime would tell Cersei about ringing the bells, and she would use that as a ruse to lure her enemies into an ambush.


I had a similar thought. When Jamie got locked out and we saw him run off and Tyrion kept looking at the bell, I thought Jamie was going to ring it to cause some confusion and delay things until he could find a way in.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Yes. A thousand times YES. I was more certain of this than any other theory I had about the show.


Yeah, the bells confused me some. Cersei doesn't surrender. They've made that clear. She'd die before she surrenders, and the only reason Cersei would ring the bells is to attempt one last trickery.

They've fallen for Cersei's lies and deceit time after time after time. If they had stopped fighting after the bells rang that would have been the dumbest part of this entire show.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> She didn't think it would work but explicitly stated she still needed to give it a chance to avoid the killing of innocents.


I think it was more she wanted people to say that she did try to avoid it. She didn't really care One way or the other

-smak-


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I thought we were to infer that Cersei did eventually surrender?

As far as Dany goes, I’m fairly confident D&D were told what would happen here and did their best crap TV writing to transform her into a madwoman in the same way Lucas did with Anakin. Both were vomitous. I can only hope we see that actually she ate Varys poison and snapped because of that.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

IIRC, It was the citizens that were to ring the bells and open the gates (but the gate was opened by Dragon before the bells)
Was it Jamie who rang the bells?


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

That was the most bloated, monotonous episode ever! Way too long fights that went on and on and on! I could care less about 20 minutes of those two brothers fighting who were only minor characters and Arya getting knocked down and getting up time after time. And Cersi deserved a much more gruesome ending.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> It's kind of stupid how it played out. I understand the anger and the need for revenge. So if she destroyed the Red Keep and there was a lot of innocent casualties as a result, I could certainly understand. But destroying the entire city methodically - street by street - didn't make sense regardless of how "mad" she was.


This is where I am with it all. I would have cheered her on if she headed right for Cercei but that was just too much, too methodical of mass murder. There is absolutely no way she lives after this. Shame.



Fahtrim said:


> Why would Tyrion sell on Varys, to save Dany's life I guess?


I really had issue with this as well. But it doesn't matter if she finds out he freed Jaime my favorite little man is Dracarys next, which I have a feeling is how his fate ends. 



getreal said:


> If Jon had just kissed his aunt as he had done before, how much of this tantrum could have been avoided?


I talked to a friend I got watching this after the showed aired and this was the first thing he asked me and my answer is yes. I think had Jon not rejected her, she may have felt she had more to hope for.



ct1 said:


> That's exactly the issue -- it would have been completely in character to be ruthless to those who opposed her, and not to show mercy to enemies. So if she has gone straight to the keep to get at Cersei, her enemy, even to be ruthless and burn up the collateral around her, that would have fit.
> To ignore her enemies and those who opposed her to take the time to burn up innocents, that was what was jarring.


This.

As I said before I'm not going to complain too much going forward. I've resigned myself to being unhappy with most of it so here are the moments I did like! (probably repeating other people's thoughts/comments as well)

I hated that Jaime left Winterfell but once they had him do that his ending with Cercei really was the only way it could go to have any sliver of satisfaction for me. Plus his scene with Tyrion was amazing. That hug was just something. I proper got choked up and had to pause to grab a tissue. Cleganbowl was very satisfying and them both dying by fire was somehow really the only way that could have gone. Jon seeing all Dany's men and his own go absolutely nuts was heartbreaking because he was so helpless to stop any of it. Then seeing it all from Arya's point of view was just wow. There were a number of times I really started thinking that was how she would die so I'm glad I was wrong.

There is only one way for Dany to die IMO and that's by Jon killing her. And they'll probably do some "I forgive you/love you" scene where he embraces her and stabs her because how else would that happen without Drogon burning him alive? Or maybe he still will. Maybe they both die together and Sansa rules what's left of Westeros. I kind of hope that if Tyrion lives he goes to join Sansa.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> We spent the last bunch of seasons rooting for her, and in the end, she ends up being as big a a-hole as the rest of them. It has felt like I was rooting for a different person.


IMHO, if you've been rooting for Dany throughout this show, you haven't been paying attention.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I thought we were to infer that Cersei did eventually surrender?


I took it as civilians or surrendered soldiers deciding to ring the bells, not Cersei.



photoshopgrl said:


> There is only one way for Dany to die IMO and that's by Jon killing her. And they'll probably do some "I forgive you/love you" scene where he embraces her and stabs her because how else would that happen without Drogon burning him alive? Or maybe he still will. Maybe they both die together and Sansa rules what's left of Westeros. I kind of hope that if Tyrion lives he goes to join Sansa.


So, the smart think would be to take out Drogon first. So that'll never happen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> There is only one way for Dany to die IMO and that's by Jon killing her. And they'll probably do some "I forgive you/love you" scene where he embraces her and stabs her because how else would that happen without Drogon burning him alive? Or maybe he still will. Maybe they both die together and Sansa rules what's left of Westeros. I kind of hope that if Tyrion lives he goes to join Sansa.


I was half-expecting Jaime to do that to Cersei.

I don't think either of their character arcs resolved well at all. Jaime basically threw away all the character development he's gone through since the show began, and Cersei...

Well, OK, Cersei's character development has consisted mainly of her inner rot becoming outer rot. But even so, crying in the basement doesn't seem like a very Cersei way to go out.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Tending toward impulsive action and violence is a far cry from an hours long campaign of merciless slaughter of innocent people after having already won the throne. Especially an episode after wanting to give Cersei a chance to surrender to avoid *accidental *killing of innocents during warfare.


I get this and I've been waffling back and forth. On one hand, yeah, those are a lot of innocent deaths. On the other hand, the US dropped two bombs on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of people (and one that may or may not have been necessary). Why? To make sure that Japan surrendered. I guess Dany could have thought that ringing the bells was a ploy by Cersei to lure her in for slaughter, or that she HAD to make sure that she was dead and that's the only way. This isn't 21st Century US, it's medieval times (well fictional anyway), and the methods of communications wasn't exact.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, OK, Cersei's character development has consisted mainly of her inner rot becoming outer rot. But even so, crying in the basement doesn't seem like a very Cersei way to go out.


I thought it was right. She's always been the winner because she's always been able to stay ahead of her enemies and find a way to kill them. Like the rest of us/them on screen Dany flipping out like she did was not something Cercei ever thought would happen. She truly thought her army/scorpions were enough. As Qyburn kept telling her they were gone she got more and more worried. Left to die alone and then seeing Jaime she finally let down that steel guard in defeat.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I get this and I've been waffling back and forth. On one hand, yeah, those are a lot of innocent deaths. On the other hand, the US dropped two bombs on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of people (and one that may or may not have been unnecessary). Why? To make sure that Japan surrendered. I guess Dany could have thought that ringing the bells was a ploy by Cersei to lure her in for slaughter, or that she HAD to make sure that she was dead and that's the only way. This isn't 21st Century US, it's medieval times (well fictional anyway), and the methods of communications wasn't exact.


...although there's a difference between murdering enemy civilians and murdering your own people...

Not much of a moral difference, but a pretty massive practical difference. She will now be hated forever by the people she claims to rule.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Tsiehta said:


> IMHO, if you've been rooting for Dany throughout this show, you haven't been paying attention.


Then I guess a good portion of folks here and online reviews that I've read haven't been paying attention. We know her foibles from watching. We know she was always laser focused on getting back the throne, but, we've also been given a Dany vs. Cersei choice and Cersei being so despicable throughout the series, even though we might not have liked everything Dany has done, we were rooting for her to win the game. I have only read the first book and part of the second, so maybe there's more in the books that would make me not want to root for her.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was half-expecting Jaime to do that to Cersei.
> 
> I don't think either of their character arcs resolved well at all. Jaime basically threw away all the character development he's gone through since the show began, and Cersei...
> 
> Well, OK, Cersei's character development has consisted mainly of her inner rot becoming outer rot. But even so, crying in the basement doesn't seem like a very Cersei way to go out.


The Jamie arc bothered me, and would have bothered me less if he hadn't "led on" Brienne. In the end though, I think they nailed it that he and Cersie die together (and I assume they are dead, I'm sure someone will come up with a theory that they escaped somehow like Euron rising from the sea).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tony_T said:


> IIRC, It was the citizens that were to ring the bells and open the gates (but the gate was opened by Dragon before the bells)
> Was it Jamie who rang the bells?


Tyrion was hoping the Lannister army would stop fighting and - along with the citizens - rebel against Cersei and ring the bells to surrender. Which is exactly what happened, actually. His only hope was that Jaime would take Cersei away. He never expected her to surrender.

The Hound and the Mountain did NOT die by fire. Maybe the Mountain did since he didn't seem to die easily; but I'm 100% sure the Hound died by landing 

I was half-expecting the Mountain to become the next version of the Night King...something undead that man created, albeit somewhat accidentally.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tsiehta said:


> IMHO, if you've been rooting for Dany throughout this show, you haven't been paying attention.


Yes. A thousand times YES.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jaime basically threw away all the character development he's gone through since the show began, and Cersei...


Yes. A thousand times YES.

Sorry, clicking "like" just isn't enough for me sometimes!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> What makes no sense to me is why everybody automatically believes Jon's claim to the throne based on the story's origin - his best friend and his half brother. Especially with how thin and flimsy the Three Eyed Raven mythology has been laid out on the show. Maybe the TER is a more fleshed out, believable prophetic figure in the novels but on the show, he's just basically some weird dude in a wheelchair that only a handful of people know. Even if Sam has the document laying out Jon's claim it could easily be called a forgery.


They want to believe it. That was clear in the banquet of the previous episode. Everyone wanted to celebrate Jon as the victor of the fight and everyone seemed to be looking to him as a leadership figure. The claim, even with the thin support that it has, gives them the justification.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Tsiehta said:


> IMHO, if you've been rooting for Dany throughout this show, you haven't been paying attention.


I don't think this is fair. You can root for a character through the numerous hints of her flaws. Wanting her to be good doesn't mean we weren't paying attention.

For those of us who watched too much pro wrestling as a kid, this was Dany's heel turn. I can almost hear the wrestling announcer wailing about her turn to evil in a "Oh, the humanity!" Hindenburg voice during her razing of King's Landing.

As angry as people seem to be about Dany's heel turn, I'll be upset if Jon, Arya or anybody else kills Dany next episode. She has a nuclear powered, flying Death Star that she's not afraid to use. They have swords. It'll be cheap if Jon ends up killing her because he wuvs her or any other sentimental crap. She's Kim Jong Un now and woe unto anyone who crosses her.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smbaker said:


> They want to believe it. That was clear in the banquet of the previous episode. Everyone wanted to celebrate Jon as the victor of the fight and everyone seemed to be looking to him as a leadership figure. The claim, even with the thin support that it has, gives them the justification.


And he's a man. And he's from Westeros. And he didn't murder civilians out of anger for not loving him.

Sometimes, people just need an excuse to do what they want in the first place. In this case, the excuse is actually true but I suspect that - for many of them - it won't matter if it's true or not. That's the game.

The Game of Thrones.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

If Dany is killed, it will be Tyrion that does it.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> If Dany is killed, it will be Tyrion that does it.


Hard to say. I don't think any of us would have predicted a week ago that Cersei gets taken out by a pile of rocks.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't think this is fair. You can root for a character through the numerous hints of her flaws. Wanting her to be good doesn't mean we weren't paying attention.
> 
> For those of us who watched too much pro wrestling as a kid, this was Dany's heel turn. I can almost hear the wrestling announcer wailing about her turn to evil in a "Oh, the humanity!" Hindenburg voice during her razing of King's Landing.
> 
> As angry as people seem to be about Dany's heel turn, I'll be upset if Jon, Arya or anybody else kills Dany next episode. She has a nuclear powered, flying Death Star that she's not afraid to use. They have swords. It'll be cheap if Jon ends up killing her because he wuvs her or any other sentimental crap. S*he's Kim Jong Un now and woe unto anyone who crosses her.*


Knowing what we know now, I'd say the better analogy would be Stalin. We rooted for her because she had the best opportunity to get rid of the evil queen (and her evil family), but now that she' done that, she wants HERS, and that puts her at odds with are real heroes, the Starks. We still rooted for her, but now she's the enemy.

Also the Death Star was eventually destroyed in Star Wars. We've seen TWO dragons go down. They aren't invincible.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tsiehta said:


> IMHO, if you've been rooting for Dany throughout this show, you haven't been paying attention.


Although while they've clearly laid the foundations for her recent actions, she has been largely portrayed in a sympathetic light...which I take as the tribute to the quality of the writing in the earlier seasons. She was likable and sympathetic enough that we were willing to overlook her obvious and deeply-rooted flaws.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Knowing what we know now, I'd say the better analogy would be Stalin. We rooted for her because she had the best opportunity to get rid of the evil queen (and her evil family), but now that she' done that, she wants HERS, and that puts her at odds with are real heroes, the Starks. We still rooted for her, but now she's the enemy.
> 
> Also the Death Star was eventually destroyed in Star Wars. We've seen TWO dragons go down. They aren't invincible.


Lenin may have been the better analogy. In this episode, at least, the Death Star was invincible. It all depends on how the author wants to write it.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Lenin may have been the better analogy. In this episode, at least, the Death Star was invincible. It all depends on how the author wants to write it.


I think Drogon was about right this episode. Last episode is the one that made no sense to me.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Once again, I think that the writing here suffered mightly due to the plot "fast forward". I can totally see how Dany's character could have developed in the direction she did --it just would have taken a lot longer to get there in a way that felt natural.

Basically, when she was conquering liberating all of those cities in Essos, she was gracious and magnanimous because the cities themselves didn't matter to her --the were just a means to an end. As long as she gained resources for her military quest, the rest was superfluous; thus, she was able to remain calm and rational for all but the most direct attacks against her.

Meanwhile, she figured out early on that it was the oppressed common folk (slaves etc.) that were her "base", and the more she played to them, the more they loved her. So naturally she did everything she could to do right by them. I honestly do think that she cared for them, but who knows how much of that was true compassion, and how much was reciprocation for the adoration she felt from them?

As soon as she got to Westeros, all of her brother's (and others') childhood whisperings took hold, and a sense of (literal) entitlement and "destiny" kicked in. On some level, she expected to be hailed as a liberator, and as the rightful queen, even more so here than anywhere else. Instead, she got a public that, while certainly weary and downtrodden, didn't feel particularly _oppressed_ or enslaved, and didn't attribute their personal woes quite so uniformly any particular political power. Rather, they were weary of the endless cavalcade of kings, and beyond caring who sits on the throne. Thus, her usual "liberator" schtick fell utterly flat.

I think _that_ might be why she went after civilians and the city in general. As much as she was personally mad (ha) at Cersei, that's the sort of challenge and affront that she's dealt with before. Fundamentally, she was even more upset at people of Westeros, for failing to rally to her cause. The _one _place that should have loved her most, instead loves her the least.


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## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

GoT is one of the few episode threads that I try and read from post #1 (and this episode is no different)... A lot has been said that I agree with (and not)... Not much left to be said, but here are a couple of comments:

*1. Cercei's Death* - Cercei didn't deserve the touching death that she received with Jamie. The only way I can justify the touching scene was that perhaps Jamie deserved the scene.

*2. Writing versus Film Making *- A lot are claiming (here, and throughout the internet) that the writing is so bad. Lots of good points are being made regarding the destruction of years of character building, and I agree with a lot of what has been said. Recognizing that, I would say that bad writing does not necessarily equate to bad film making. I thought the film making was pretty intense and engaging... At least for me and the people I was watching with, it was!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although while they've clearly laid the foundations for her recent actions, she has been largely portrayed in a sympathetic light...which I take as the tribute to the quality of the writing in the earlier seasons. She was likable and sympathetic enough that we were willing to overlook her obvious and deeply-rooted flaws.


Sure, she was likable back when she agreed to chain up her dragons because they killed one innocent person or even back one season ago when she said she didn't want to be a queen of ashes. As far as foundations, sure, I mean they literally showed ashes raining down in the red keep in season 2 and all (and had the aforementioned line)


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

To the folks that named their daughters Khaleesi, I’m so sorry. 

To the folks that named their cats Khaleesi... well played.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I get this and I've been waffling back and forth. On one hand, yeah, those are a lot of innocent deaths. On the other hand, the US dropped two bombs on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of people (and one that may or may not have been unnecessary). Why? To make sure that Japan surrendered. I guess Dany could have thought that ringing the bells was a ploy by Cersei to lure her in for slaughter, or that she HAD to make sure that she was dead and that's the only way. This isn't 21st Century US, it's medieval times (well fictional anyway), and the methods of communications wasn't exact.


Yup.

It's war. Innocents die. Not just in fantasy war, but in real life war.

I don't believe Dany knew Cersei was in the keep. Of course that's what you'd suspect, but of course the concept of intel just doesn't exist this season. If I was Cersei there were many moments when I would have headed out of the keep, as that was such an obvious target. I think Cersei would rather die than surrender (especially to Tyrion and Dany) but she also told Jaime "I don't want to die".

Ok, you won't surrender and you don't want to die? Uh, perhaps have a better back up plan? Sheesh, there were so many scenes where she saw it was over. Q told her the fleet and scorpions were all destroyed. She watched Drogon systematically torch Kings Landing. If she wanted to live, she should have left the keep much earlier. Especially since Dany should have attacked ships first, scorpion second, keep third.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I don't buy it. Her motivation was to instill fear in Westeros, not to do strafing runs to make sure Cersei was dead. They couldn't have been any more clear about that to me. She didn't "go mad" or decide she better get Cersei or make a minor mistake. It was a choice she made intentionally and knowingly.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although while they've clearly laid the foundations for her recent actions, she has been largely portrayed in a sympathetic light...which I take as the tribute to the quality of the writing in the earlier seasons. She was likable and sympathetic enough that we were willing to overlook her obvious and deeply-rooted flaws.


Yup.

If we went back and read threads from years ago we hooted and hollered as she emerged from the fire. We applauded her for breaking chains.

I think they did pretty well in writing her character and getting us to like her and then not like her. Although I still like her. I appreciate her take charge attitude. 

And I don't believe they kill her next episode. Quite honestly, I think the dying of main characters is now complete.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yup.
> 
> If we went back and read threads from years ago we hooted and hollered as she emerged from the fire. We applauded her for breaking chains.
> 
> ...


She's just going to go ahead and forgive Tyrion then after burning thousands upon thousands of people who *didn't *wrong her? Or you think he'll escape or something?


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Qyburn: _The scorpions have all been destroyed, your Grace_
Cersei: _The Iron Fleet will hold Blackwater Bay ..._
Qyburn_: Your Grace, the Iron Fleet is burning. The gates have been breeched. The Golden Company .._
Cersei_: Our men will fight harder than sellswords ever could. They will defend their queen to the last man.
_
Head Lannister knight throws down his sword in front of Jon, and all his knights follow in very quick succession.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Well, for anyone who is having trouble with these episodes and Dany's somewhat sudden change, I would only suggest that had the Producers had more time to develop the plot points, and characters, it would have probably made more sense.

My take is that this ending has been rushed, and if they had more episodes to develop the changes in these characters, it might have worked better. Remember, HBO wouldn't fund more than six episodes, and I think this rushed the ending (I know there's another ep, but my point is season 8 is mostly done) and these last two episodes in particular, as spectacular as they were, shows the results of that being rushed.

There's no way to know for sure if the Producers had more time that they could have done a better job of developing the story's end, but I have confidence they could have.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeekiM said:


> GoT is one of the few episode threads that I try and read from post #1 (and this episode is no different)... A lot has been said that I agree with (and not)... Not much left to be said, but here are a couple of comments:
> 
> *1. Cercei's Death* - Cercei didn't deserve the touching death that she received with Jamie. The only way I can justify the touching scene was that perhaps Jamie deserved the scene.
> 
> *2. Writing versus Film Making *- A lot are claiming (here, and throughout the internet) that the writing is so bad. Lots of good points are being made regarding the destruction of years of character building, and I agree with a lot of what has been said. Recognizing that, I would say that bad writing does not necessarily equate to bad film making. I thought the film making was pretty intense and engaging... At least for me and the people I was watching with, it was!


1. I thought they both ended up getting what they deserved. Trapped and ultimately dying together, their destinies have always been intertwined. I thought it was a fitting death, especially with SO many enemies wanting to take her out, it would have been hard to pick just one. And I felt no real empathy toward either one. I was just glad, in the end, they got theirs.

2. I don't think it was ever badly written this season, just rushed. I think the show needed ONE more season (or at least 2 or three more episodes). I do wonder, if Martin had finished the books, if there would have been more depth to what happened, considering they had to deviate and go their own way. I don't know how much influence Martin had in how it ended I do wonder, when (if?) the books are done, if it goes a different path.
Edit: Or what margaret said in the previous post


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I don't buy it. Her motivation was to instill fear in Westeros, not to do strafing runs to make sure Cersei was dead. They couldn't have been any more clear about that to me. She didn't "go mad" or decide she better get Cersei or make a minor mistake. It was a choice she made intentionally and knowingly.


Definitely. I think (I'll have to go back and re-watch) that you could even see it on her face. Wasn't there a scene where the bells ring and things pause and then you see her think for a sec and make her decision? I felt it was less "going crazy" and more "Let's do this!"


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I enjoyed the spectacle, but the path to get here felt like it just cheated the characters. Dany should've gone to the dark side more slowly. If they added a couple of more episodes showing the extent of Varys's betrayal and the fall out from it, if they hadn't just thrown Rhaegal away in ep 4 and maybe had him killed just before the bells rang out and had an audible cheer from the civilians, then maybe her decision to go into genocide mode it could've made a little more sense.

After spending so long getting us to change our minds on Jaime just to have him and Cersei die together, ugh... I am still convinced there was no baby, just a ploy to manipulate Euron, Jaime and Tyrion. I think it's still fake as she was desperate and needed Jaime to find a way out for her. Tyrion just fooked himself freeing Jaime believing Dany wanted a peaceful transition.

Going forward Dany, if she wants to keep the throne and remove all possible usurpers, should be planning to kill Jon, the rest of the Starks, and Jons buddies and Ghost and kill Tyrion, he failed and betrayed her for the last time. These characters should have the wherewithal to know Dany is solidifying her claim to be unquestioned and if ep 6 starts with them going to Dany to all "wtf?" just to be surprised that they're literal toast the eyerolls will be real.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mm2margaret said:


> My take is that this ending has been rushed, and if they had more episodes to develop the changes in these characters, it might have worked better. Remember, HBO wouldn't fund more than six episodes, and I think this rushed the ending (I know there's another ep, but my point is season 8 is mostly done) and these last two episodes in particular, as spectacular as they were, shows the results of that being rushed.


That's not what I heard...HBO would happily have funded GoT forever; it was the producers who decided how much space they needed to finish the story (and that they'd rather have six spectacular episodes than 8-12 regular ones).


uncdrew said:


> Definitely. I think (I'll have to go back and re-watch) that you could even see it on her face. Wasn't there a scene where the bells ring and things pause and then you see her think for a sec and make her decision? I felt it was less "going crazy" and more "Let's do this!"


But you'd have to be crazy (as in, clinically insane) to do this. That's not military thinking; that's terrorist thinking.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

When do we get the other 5 spectacular episodes (assuming we think this is one)?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I thought this review was spot on in how I saw things:

'Game of Thrones' Season 8, Episode 5 Recap: The Gods Toss a Coin

(may need NY Times sub to see it, I apologize)

I liked this:



> • Jon, after fiery dragon cataclysm and untold carnage: "We need to fall back!" Oh, _now_ you need to fall back. Always on top of things, that guy.


All I could think about when i saw that scene is the parade seen in Animal House where Neidermeyer is yelling "Stay Calm all is well". Jon Snow had ZERO control over anyone, by that point.



> • You know who I'm guessing _really_ didn't like this episode? All those parents who named their daughters Khaleesi.


This cracked me up having just read that the other day. Seems it's become a fairly popular name for girls.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> She's just going to go ahead and forgive Tyrion then after burning thousands upon thousands of people who *didn't *wrong her? Or you think he'll escape or something?


Who? Dany forgive Tyrion for what? All his mistakes? I'm confused by what you're asking.

I don't think there are many deaths left. Tyrion did pull his whole "you gotta pick a king/queen and stick with them" and looked sincere when he said it. But you could easily see he was appalled by Dany torching Kings Landing after he thought she'd honor the bells.

Does he try to kill her? Nah, I doubt it. Does he stop being her hand? I could see that.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Who? Dany forgive Tyrion for what? All his mistakes? I'm confused by what you're asking.
> 
> I don't think there are many deaths left. Tyrion did pull his whole "you gotta pick a king/queen and stick with them" and looked sincere when he said it. But you could easily see he was appalled by Dany torching Kings Landing after he thought she'd honor the bells.
> 
> Does he try to kill her? Nah, I doubt it. Does he stop being her hand? I could see that.


I'm talking about when he freed Jaime and then set up a way for Jaime and Cersei to escape unscathed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> I'm talking about when he freed Jaime and then set up a way for Jaime and Cersei to escape unscathed.


I think the scene just before he did that was the one where Dany told him that he just made his last mistake. Freeing Jaime is absolutely one Huge mistake after that!


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

The AV Club's experts review is particularly insightful on the issue of Dany's turn. A rather long excerpt below.

https://tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-brutally-asserts-that-the-game-in-quest-1834707954

_...a complex conversation about whether this was the right decision, but also more pressingly if it was a justified decision. And it is here where I think we need to separate out these two questions, because we're dealing with two different issues.

The first question speaks to the core ideas of the story development, which is about the corruptive nature of power. And on this question, I will go on the record as saying that the choice to have Daenerys burn down King's Landing is a logical and to my mind effective way of ending this story on a thematic level. The way it reshapes the rest of the episode is a striking reframing of the violence that has defined the show, but this time with the knowledge that Jon-often our point of view on the horrors of war-is on the side committing that violence. Once the Lannisters lay down their weapons and give up the city, everything after that is a war crime, and Jon, Davos, Tyrion, and we as the audience are faced with that violence in a new light. After Miguel Sapochnik's work on "The Long Night" hid the carnage of the army of the dead in the shadow of night, he shoots the horrors of Dany's attack on the city in the light of day, and Arya's staggering trip through King's Landing leaves no question about how many innocent people were killed in the name of a queen's vengeance.

The second question speaks to this as a character development, and here is where things get undeniably trickier. I think it would be a mistake to say that Dany's actions are unjustified. Varys' suggestion that every Targaryen is a coin flip makes it easy to be led to think the show itself flipped a coin and turned Dany in the process, but I would argue the show is not claiming she simply went mad like her father.* Her entire character arc has been defined by her struggle to learn how to lead a continent she's never set foot on, and the past two seasons have shown just how much her messy experiences across the Narrow Sea failed to fully prepare her for what would happen upon her arrival in Westeros. Her actions are an immediate reaction to Missandei's death, but they're also fueled by her realization that all the work she put into learning how to rule is being steadfastly ignored in favor of a man who doesn't even want to sit on the Iron Throne. It wasn't that she was destined to commit these atrocities because she was a Targaryen: Being a Targaryen and having her dragons gave her the capacity to do so, but her choice is a response to a collection of life experiences that left her believing that ruling with fear was the only path ahead of her._


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But you'd have to be crazy (as in, clinically insane) to do this. That's not military thinking; that's terrorist thinking.


I disagree to an extent. She's pissed, she's power-hungry, she'd had big losses. So she's not at her mental best, but I'm not quite to full-on crazy town yet. She's on the spectrum, but nowhere near the Mad King who wanted to drink wildfyre so he could become a dragon.

Most of us last week thought last week that she lost it and was going to attack Cersei immediately. But no, she waited several days for her army, she obviously learned from the last battle and came up with a strategy for the scorpions and fleet. She hadn't gone full-on crazy, at least not in the "attack everything immediately" mode that some thought might happen. She had several conversations in this episode showing her mental acuity is still fine. Perhaps we just have a different definition of crazy.

And Cersei lies about everything, and Dany wants this to be done. So she ended it. She had the tools, so she used them.

I do admit her torching every square inch of Kings Landing shows she's evil and got a bit wrapped up in the moment, and it would have made a better story (IMHO) if she brought down only the Red Keep after the bells rang and then regrouped with her army and stopped killing and accepted the surrender. But would we have liked that ending? Would we have believed it? I dunno.

I expect next episode we'll find Dany acting quite normal, with an explanation about what she did that makes a little more sense than "I lost my sh*t, didn't I?"


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...although there's a difference between murdering enemy civilians and murdering your own people...
> 
> Not much of a moral difference, but a pretty massive practical difference. She will now be hated forever by the people she claims to rule.


Not to mention that the Japanese people did NOT surrender prior to the bombs. This was more like the Gulf War where the troops surrendered. We didn't go blast the nation.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I'm talking about when he freed Jaime and then set up a way for Jaime and Cersei to escape unscathed.


Ah. Yes, I understand what you're saying.

Will Dany ever know that?

In the aftermath of battle perhaps the Unsullied do report Tyrion's actions and it gets to Dany. And if so, Tyrion's silver tongue will be tested, for sure.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> 1. I thought they both ended up getting what they deserved. Trapped and ultimately dying together, their destinies have always been intertwined. I thought it was a fitting death, especially with SO many enemies wanting to take her out, it would have been hard to pick just one. And I felt no real empathy toward either one. I was just glad, in the end, they got theirs.
> 
> 2. I don't think it was ever badly written this season, just rushed. I think the show needed ONE more season (or at least 2 or three more episodes). I do wonder, if Martin had finished the books, if there would have been more depth to what happened, considering they had to deviate and go their own way. I don't know how much influence Martin had in how it ended I do wonder, when (if?) the books are done, if it goes a different path.
> Edit: Or what margaret said in the previous post


Except....they knew the timeline before last season. They had time to develop the story but didn't use it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I enjoyed the spectacle, but the path to get here felt like it just cheated the characters. Dany should've gone to the dark side more slowly. If they added a couple of more episodes showing the extent of Varys's betrayal and the fall out from it, if they hadn't just thrown Rhaegal away in ep 4 and maybe had him killed just before the bells rang out and had an audible cheer from the civilians, then maybe her decision to go into genocide mode it could've made a little more sense.
> 
> After spending so long getting us to change our minds on Jaime just to have him and Cersei die together, ugh... I am still convinced there was no baby, just a ploy to manipulate Euron, Jaime and Tyrion. I think it's still fake as she was desperate and needed Jaime to find a way out for her. Tyrion just fooked himself freeing Jaime believing Dany wanted a peaceful transition.


I'm going with a hysterical pregnancy. She was not pregnant but convinced herself she was. She was also a mad queen.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Perhaps this was more like Sherman burning Atlanta. She needed not just a simple surrender, but a big enough statement that every other house and city would immediately lay down their arms, bend the knee and end all future conflict, swearing fealty to her alone without any further thought for any other potential claims to 'her' throne.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> Well, for anyone who is having trouble with these episodes and Dany's somewhat sudden change, I would only suggest that had the Producers had more time to develop the plot points, and characters, it would have probably made more sense.
> 
> My take is that this ending has been rushed, and if they had more episodes to develop the changes in these characters, it might have worked better. Remember, HBO wouldn't fund more than six episodes, and I think this rushed the ending (I know there's another ep, but my point is season 8 is mostly done) and these last two episodes in particular, as spectacular as they were, shows the results of that being rushed.
> 
> There's no way to know for sure if the Producers had more time that they could have done a better job of developing the story's end, but I have confidence they could have.


I agree with your premise about the rushing, but I thought the opposite was true. The show-runners wanted to end it in 73 episodes, even though HBO wanted more. There's an excellent article last week about their rush to finish; I think it was in the Ringer.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Perhaps this was more like Sherman burning Atlanta. She needed not just a simple surrender, but a big enough statement that every other house and city would immediately lay down their arms, bend the knee and end all future conflict, swearing fealty to her alone without any further thought for any other potential claims to 'her' throne.


Certainly plausible, especially given Dany's not so stable current mental state.

She knows the North doesn't think she's the queen. She won this battle single-handed. She really didn't even need a single soldier on this one.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

MacThor said:


> I agree with your premise about the rushing, but I thought the opposite was true. The show-runners wanted to end it in 73 episodes, even though HBO wanted more. There's an excellent article last week about their rush to finish; I think it was in the Ringer.


Well, not to belabor the point too much, but I think there's evidence of rushing. Last week it was the coffee cup, and this week Jamie's hand apparently grew back. The overly dark episodes and one of the production crew claiming that the audience doesn't know how to calibrate their TVs? Excuse me, but I DO know how to calibrate my TV. Berating the audience? Unheard of, and in most productions, that would be a fireable offense.

I think these all demonstrate that there really was rushing to get it all done, and some stuff just slipped through....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mm2margaret said:


> Well, not to belabor the point too much, but I think there's evidence of rushing. Last week it was the coffee cup, and this week Jamie's hand apparently grew back. The overly dark episodes and one of the production crew claiming that the audience doesn't know how to calibrate their TVs? Excuse me, but I DO know how to calibrate my TV. Berating the audience? Unheard of, and in most productions, that would be a fireable offense.
> 
> I think these all demonstrate that there really was rushing to get it all done, and some stuff just slipped through....


I don't think anybody denies that they're rushing. It's just that it's a self-inflicted wound, not something that came down from HBO...they decided how much room they needed to finish, and it turned out (in my opinion although I think at this point you'd have to be pretty nuts to disagree) they were wrong.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> Well, not to belabor the point too much, but I think there's evidence of rushing. Last week it was the coffee cup, and this week Jamie's hand apparently grew back. The overly dark episodes and one of the production crew claiming that the audience doesn't know how to calibrate their TVs? Excuse me, but I DO know how to calibrate my TV. Berating the audience? Unheard of, and in most productions, that would be a fireable offense.
> 
> I think these all demonstrate that there really was rushing to get it all done, and some stuff just slipped through....


Wait. We are discussing rushing the story. Not rushing the production. Those are two different things.

How the hell are they rushing the production when they had an extra year? Just because they are getting sloppy doesn't mean they are rushing the production.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Wait. We are discussing rushing the story. Not rushing the production. Those are two different things.
> 
> How the hell are they rushing the production when they had an extra year? Just because they are getting sloppy doesn't mean they are rushing the production.


What extra year? It could have gone ten...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think anybody denies that they're rushing. It's just that it's a self-inflicted wound, not something that came down from HBO...they decided how much room they needed to finish, and it turned out (in my opinion although I think at this point you'd have to be pretty nuts to disagree) they were wrong.


What's funny is that the inability to finish out a series without more books is a common problem in the fantasy genre. Thankfully most writers don't take the approach D&D did with S7 and S8.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

Anubys said:


> If Dany is killed, it will be Tyrion that does it.


I would not be surprised if Dany is taken out by Martha, the kitchen help who talked with Varys about whether Dany was eating or not. Poison perhaps.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What extra year? It could have gone ten...


They had an extra year to make this season.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What extra year? It could have gone ten...


Extra year of time not an extra season. Wasn't the time frame of season 8 film to release extended quite a bit.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

reneg said:


> I would not be surprised if Dany is taken out by Martha, the kitchen help who talked with Varys about whether Dany was eating or not. Poison perhaps.


Little birds continuing on their path.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I think that the Iron Throne will still kill someone. I mean, come on, it's all swords. It's like Chekov's Chair. 

And since this is Game Of Thrones, I can see it still going for a tragic ending. Imagine if someone kills Dany, but turns out it's not her, just someone wearing her face...


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> 1.
> ..
> 2. ... I do wonder, if Martin had finished the books, if there would have been more depth to what happened, considering they had to deviate and go their own way. I don't know how much influence Martin had in how it ended I do wonder, when (if?) the books are done, if it goes a different path....


About that.
Game Of Thrones: George R.R. Martin's Last Two Books Are Done, According To Actor


> "I don't know if you know more than me about this, but what I've been told is that George has already written books six and seven," McElhinney said. "And as far as he's concerned, there only are seven books. But he struck an agreement with David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss], the showrunners of the series, that he would not publish the final two books until the series has completed.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

IIRC - and I will watch the episode again! - Dany considered stopping when she heard the bells. Maybe she was disappointed to hear them, but she paused and considered the plan. Then decided it "frak it, I want to kill everyone and I don't care what anyone thinks" and sent Drogon in the air to commence killing civilians. I believe that she had been killing soldiers up to that point.

So she knew what she should do but when decision time came, she gave in to her baser impulses and went on a rampage.

Oh, and Jon only killed in self-defense after the Lannisters surrendered.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

dwatt said:


> About that.
> Game Of Thrones: George R.R. Martin's Last Two Books Are Done, According To Actor


I wonder how many death threats Benioff and Weiss will get if Martin's ending is significantly different than theirs.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I doubt very much that the books are done. He took 10 years to do the last book and he's not indicated anything of the sort in his blogs etc. I think it's more likely that he'll never finish them. I hope I am wrong.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

reneg said:


> I would not be surprised if Dany is taken out by Martha, the kitchen help who talked with Varys about whether Dany was eating or not. Poison perhaps.


I've been thinking about this angle. I read a trilogy once -- they chased the bad guy's armies all over the world for 3 books then suddenly he's poisoned with about as much warning as this. I was not happy.



hefe said:


> I think that the Iron Throne will still kill someone. I mean, come on, it's all swords. It's like Chekov's Chair.


 She's touring the rubble and it rolls down a hill and ...

Rather like her brother wanting a crown so much.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Where did all those Dothraki soldiers come from? I thought they all got extinguished by the wights.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

TonyD79 said:


> Wait. We are discussing rushing the story. Not rushing the production. Those are two different things.
> 
> How the hell are they rushing the production when they had an extra year? Just because they are getting sloppy doesn't mean they are rushing the production.


No, we're not. The story and the production are not exclusive of one another. Production and costs always affect the story told. Always.


----------



## Hercules67 (Dec 8, 2007)

cheesesteak said:


> Where did all those Dothraki soldiers come from? I thought they all got extinguished by the wights.


They showed us last week that a some Dothraki survived just as Jorah survived.


----------



## Hercules67 (Dec 8, 2007)

Every generation has a king slayer.

This generation's king slayer is Arya and she will get revenge for the destruction she saw with her own eyes. The Lord of Light accepts sacrifices but not wanton slaughter.

Jon Snow (aka, Aegon Targaryen) will sit on the Iron Throne.

Why will Drogon NOT kill him? Because Drogon already knows he's a Targaryen. And with Drogon behind him both the Unsullied and the Dothraki will bend the knee. Otherwise why did the Red Priestess resurrect him?

The reluctant HERO, becomes the KING. 

The end.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I don't see Arya as the type who would kill Dany for this. I might be wrong.

She didn't like it, and she doesn't approve of it. But not sure she would take it upon herself to kill Dany.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Arya went to Kings landing to kill the Queen, I think she will succeed.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JFriday said:


> Arya went to Kings landing to kill the Queen, I think she will succeed.


Yeah, because that queen killed her dad.

I don't think she's adding people to her list at this time. I could be wrong.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What extra year? It could have gone ten...


I meant the down time. They had time to prepare.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Hercules67 said:


> Every generation has a king slayer.
> 
> This generation's king slayer is Arya and she will get revenge for the destruction she saw with her own eyes. The Lord of Light accepts sacrifices but not wanton slaughter.
> 
> ...


This is why I think that for a "happy ending", it has to be Arya (or someone else) who kills Dany, not Jon or even on Jon's bidding. If Jon was involved in her death, Drogon would never accept him. And having a rogue dragon on the loose isn't going to make anyone happy.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> No, we're not. The story and the production are not exclusive of one another. Production and costs always affect the story told. Always.


You are taking in circles.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Crazy, in 1 week there will be no more new GOT episodes.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, because that queen killed her dad.
> 
> I don't think she's adding people to her list at this time. I could be wrong.


I now think Dany kills Jon, and then Arya kills Dany.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

TonyD79 said:


> You are taking in circles.


Sure, okay, I'm talking in circles. But I'm betting most folks understand that rewrites and reshoots are quite common in production, even after picture lock.....


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I happened to rewatch the Battle of Blackwater episode on Saturday, so this made me laugh when Tyrion kept talking about the bells.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Marco said:


> I now think Dany kills Jon, and then Arya kills Dany.


That would certainly be motivation for Arya. And I do suspect (and have) that Dany wants Jon dead. Certainly now after he wouldn't spoon with her.


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

mm2margaret said:


> My take is that this ending has been rushed, and if they had more episodes to develop the changes in these characters, it might have worked better. Remember, HBO wouldn't fund more than six episodes, and I think this rushed the ending (I know there's another ep, but my point is season 8 is mostly done) and these last two episodes in particular, as spectacular as they were, shows the results of that being rushed.


This. The entire season is rushed.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> This. The entire season is rushed.


Yes, but HBO didn't rush the show-runners. The show-runners rushed it themselves.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

CGI fire and explosions must be significantly cheaper than CGI Direwolf fur.


----------



## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

uncdrew said:


> I don't see Arya as the type who would kill Dany for this. I might be wrong.
> 
> She didn't like it, and she doesn't approve of it. But not sure she would take it upon herself to kill Dany.


The amount of time we spent with her and the innocents makes me think otherwise. I don't think Arya will want her as queen, and with Jon having the better claim to the throne, and Danny not going to give it to him, the only question is who will kill Danny, and I feel it will be Arya.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I can't believe I didn't think of this (stick with me): Varys never cared about himself. All he cared about was the good of the Realm. Would he let something like his death stop him?

Heck no. Varys would have set things up so the great reward for the little kitchen bird would still be paid even after his death.

You heard it here first: Dany will die via poison from Varys' little birds. He would have made sure of it. Take it to the bank!


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I can't believe I didn't think of this (stick with me): Varys never cared about himself. All he cared about was the good of the Realm. Would he let something like his death stop him?
> 
> Heck no. Varys would have set things up so the great reward for the little kitchen bird would still be paid even after his death.
> 
> *You heard it here first:* Dany will die via poison from Varys' little birds. He would have made sure of it. Take it to the bank!


Except that someone here already said it. 

I like this as "reasonable" more than any other way Dany dies. It would make sense that someone carries out Varys' wishes and does so with more determination after hearing he was rotisseried.

Maybe they do a "Murder on the Orient Express" and everyone murders Dany. Spoilers!!!


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

I wonder how next week's finale will play out... Are we done with the action, and now will move to more dramatic scenes (including more "personal" assassinations)? I have to believe that the action is done... Next week will need to use every bit of those final 80 minutes to wrap up the storylines and arcs of all these characters... 80 minutes is not a lot of time, right? It's gonna be tight...


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

They really should pay more attention to their "Inside the Episode" segments, too. It really makes them seem like they haven't thought things through.

Last week was the whole "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" comment.

This week, one of them talks about the tendency for a show like this to focus on the heroic characters, but they really wanted to keep the perspective on the ground while Dany rains hell from above - because those are the people paying the price. Just a few minutes later, the other one (I always forget which is which) says they decided to focus on Arya because if all they did was show a bunch of extras getting burned, you wouldn't care as much...


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> Crazy, in 1 week there will be no more new GOT episodes.


I know. I'm sad.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Hercules67 said:


> Why will Drogon NOT kill him? Because Drogon already knows he's a Targaryen. And with Drogon behind him both the Unsullied and the Dothraki will bend the knee. Otherwise why did the Red Priestess resurrect him?


IMO, the Red Priestess and the Lord of Light only cared about the battle with The Dead. That's why Jon was resurrected. All this squabbling among the living is just noise to the LoL.

Davos: "We fight his war and win, and then he f**ks off."


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I agree with your premise about the rushing, but I thought the opposite was true. The show-runners wanted to end it in 73 episodes, even though HBO wanted more. There's an excellent article last week about their rush to finish; I think it was in the Ringer.


HBO commissioned up to a dozen GOT spinoffs, and it looks like they were going forward with more than one, and GOT is their highest rated series ever.

So yah, HBO didn't want to end it this way at all. And especially not in LESS episodes. They'd much rather have 10 50 minute episodes than 6 80 minute ones.

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Except that someone here already said it.


Someone did? I must've missed it...darn...ok...you heard it here second!

I drink to eat the skull keeper.

I want to eat the skull keeper.

I want to see the...

nevermind.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

MacThor said:


> They really should pay more attention to their "Inside the Episode" segments, too. It really makes them seem like they haven't thought things through.
> 
> Last week was the whole "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" comment.


I don't really know why the hubbub about that line is. She planned around the Iron Fleet, but once in the air, forgot about them.

I don't think that's a contradiction.

-smak-


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

What will we talk about after GoT is over?


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Be a dragon:


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

MacThor said:


> CGI fire and explosions must be significantly cheaper than CGI Direwolf fur.


Saw this on reddit and laughed then frowned.


Spoiler


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Did we specifically see grayworm do something bad. I guess he threw the first spear at the surrenderred soldiers, but at least we didn't see him hurt any civilians, did we?


It was Grey Worm's act of throwing his spear at the Lannister army that reignited the battle in the streets after the Lannister army had surrendered. And they made a point of showing how the Lannister soldiers were trying to help the innocent civilians get to safety while it was the Unsullied and the rest of Dany's forces that were committing the atrocities.



uncdrew said:


> Yeah, the bells confused me some. Cersei doesn't surrender. They've made that clear. She'd die before she surrenders, and the only reason Cersei would ring the bells is to attempt one last trickery.
> 
> They've fallen for Cersei's lies and deceit time after time after time. If they had stopped fighting after the bells rang that would have been the dumbest part of this entire show.


Except it wasn't Cersei ringing the bells. It was the people, who had abandoned Cersei and decided they weren't willing to fight for her any longer. So it made no sense to keep slaughtering the people after Cersei's army had surrendered. 


mm2margaret said:


> My take is that this ending has been rushed, and if they had more episodes to develop the changes in these characters, it might have worked better. Remember, HBO wouldn't fund more than six episodes, and I think this rushed the ending (I know there's another ep, but my point is season 8 is mostly done) and these last two episodes in particular, as spectacular as they were, shows the results of that being rushed.
> 
> There's no way to know for sure if the Producers had more time that they could have done a better job of developing the story's end, but I have confidence they could have.


Well, I think everyone agrees this show could have used more episodes leading up to the ending. Everyone except Benioff and Weiss, who were the ones that decided the show could be finished in two more seasons and to have the final two seasons total 13 episodes rather than 10 each like all previous seasons.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

smak said:


> I don't really know why the hubbub about that line is. She planned around the Iron Fleet, but once in the air, forgot about them.
> 
> I don't think that's a contradiction.
> 
> -smak-


Euron takes out allied Tyrell and Martell fleets by surprise: Shame on him.
Euron takes out Targaryen fleet off Casterly Rock by surprise: Shame on her.
Euron takes out Rhaegal and your remaining fleet by surprise: Shame. Shame. Shame.


----------



## MikeekiM (Jun 25, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> What will we talk about after GoT is over?


I know... There aren't many shows that drive this kind of thread/topic volume!


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MacThor said:


> CGI fire and explosions must be significantly cheaper than CGI Direwolf fur.


It supposedly is. There was a lot of discussion about this online. Something about fur and motion capture and inserting motion captured fur into existing scenes or some such.



DevdogAZ said:


> It was Grey Worm's act of throwing his spear at the Lannister army that reignited the battle in the streets after the Lannister army had surrendered. And they made a point of showing how the Lannister soldiers were trying to help the innocent civilians get to safety while it was the Unsullied and the rest of Dany's forces that were committing the atrocities.


I guess you could blame Greyworm, but it seemed to me he only did so once Dany had decided to burninate.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Just saw this on Reddit and I found the read and the comments after quite interesting.
This guy gets it

ETA I hate that it inserts reddit as media every time!


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I don't see Arya as the type who would kill Dany for this. I might be wrong.


They went out of their way to personalize the destruction with Arya, including having her try to save the a child and mother who were killed with intentional dragon fire by Dany. I can't think of any other good reason for all that time spent on Arya, other than to set her up to take on Dany.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except it wasn't Cersei ringing the bells. It was the people, who had abandoned Cersei and decided they weren't willing to fight for her any longer. So it made no sense to keep slaughtering the people after Cersei's army had surrendered.


Yes, I agree it wasn't Cersei ringing the bells - she wasn't going to surrender. And since people in Kings Landing know ringing bells means surrender, Cersei wouldn't have the bell towers accessible to anyone but her soldiers. She wasn't going to leave that up to a bunch of peasants she's using at meat shields. So her people did not ring the bells. Her soldiers did.

Like others, I thought we'd see Jaime either physically ringing the bells himself, or finding a captains guard and telling him to do it.

Without seeing any communication or signaling of ringing the bells, I'm not exactly sure how it went down. Not hugely important, but I'm curious. Perhaps one of them was smart enough to see a dragon destroying everything and made an executive decision.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> It supposedly is. There was a lot of discussion about this online. Something about fur and motion capture and inserting motion captured fur into existing scenes or some such.


Back in the good ol' days you just got a wolf.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Hercules67 said:


> The reluctant HERO, becomes the KING.
> 
> The end.


He's really not much of a hero, hasn't he pretty much failed at every opportunity?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> They went out of their way to personalize the destruction with Arya, including having her try to save the a child and mother who were killed with intentional dragon fire by Dany. I can't think of any other good reason for all that time spent on Arya, other than to set her up to take on Dany.


They wanted to show us that destruction through one of our favorite character's eyes. It needed to be someone who was going to Kings Landing. She was really the only choice that made sense.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

zordude said:


> He's really not much of a hero, hasn't he pretty much failed at every opportunity?


Depends on your point of view. I don't think he's failed. I'm not sure I'd quite call him the hero of the story though either.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

zordude said:


> He's really not much of a hero, hasn't he pretty much failed at every opportunity?


I think he's kind of a putz.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

zordude said:


> He's really not much of a hero, hasn't he pretty much failed at every opportunity?


Hasn't his side won every battle he's been in. Lately for sure.

-smak-


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

The best end for Jon will be to take Aemon's place in the cycle of history. Guy who refused the throne, possibly leading to horrific events, hanging out on the wall, mostly forgotten eventually.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> They wanted to show us that destruction through one of our favorite character's eyes. It needed to be someone who was going to Kings Landing. She was really the only choice that made sense.


We shall see!

Jon Snow would have made as much or more sense than Arya. Same with Tyrion. They were both die-hard Dany supporters, participants in the battle, well positioned to see the effect of her actions (and to an extent the result of their own support), and capable of putting a human reaction to it.

I think Arya has a new queen to kill.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TAsunder said:


> The best end for Jon will be to take Aemon's place in the cycle of history. Guy who refused the throne, possibly leading to horrific events, hanging out on the wall, mostly forgotten eventually.


But there's no point in the wall anymore is there? Is there even a Night's Watch now? What would be the point of it?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> We shall see!
> 
> Jon Snow would have made as much or more sense than Arya. Same with Tyrion. They were both die-hard Dany supporters, participants in the battle, well positioned to see the effect of her actions (and to an extent the result of their own support), and capable of putting a human reaction to it.
> 
> I think Arya has a new queen to kill.


Well said. We shall see. I will probably be wrong.

We did see the horror through Jon, but certainly not as much as we did through Arya. Jon seemed to be in more fighting areas than Arya. Tyrion shows us too, but he doesn't run well and wasn't as far inside the city walls.

There was that one scene where I think many of us feared Arya was going to take a Dothraki sword in the back.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> But there's no point in the wall anymore is there? Is there even a Night's Watch now? What would be the point of it?


How many people believed in the White Walkers at the start of this series? Perhaps the wall was more about keeping the wildlings out.



uncdrew said:


> There was that one scene where I think many of us feared Arya was going to take a Dothraki sword in the back.


I had a few moments like that as well watching. This still remains a series where almost anything could happen at any time.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> How many people believed in the White Walkers at the start of this series? Perhaps the wall was more about keeping the wildlings out.


Oooookay and still my questions are valid. They are no longer at war with the wildlings either so what's the point of it now?


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oooookay and still my questions are valid. They are no longer at war with the wildlings either so what's the point of it now?


I agree. He's more likely to go back to Winterfell and open up a tavern.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

This is probably not fair, because there's only so much you can do while answering a question you can't answer, but...  (It's clips of GoT actors being asked what they think of the finalé, and giving the impression they might not be entirely thrilled)


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oooookay and still my questions are valid. They are no longer at war with the wildlings either so what's the point of it now?


There was barely a point before. Anyway if not the wall something roughly equivalent.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oooookay and still my questions are valid. They are no longer at war with the wildlings either so what's the point of it now?


Human nature says they will be at war again soon.  The wildlings are raiders aren't they? I see everyone pretty much going back to their old ways now that the common threat has gone away.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> Human nature says they will be at war again soon.  The wildlings are raiders aren't they? I see everyone pretty much going back to their old ways now that the common threat has gone away.


But they were only raiders because they were being forced into the lands of always winter. Now that they are allowed to roam freely will that continue?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This is probably not fair, because there's only so much you can do while answering a question you can't answer, but...  (It's clips of GoT actors being asked what they think of the finalé, and giving the impression they might no be entirely thrilled)


There was some funny in there.

But honestly, they could have 60 minutes of riding horses and eating turkey legs and not a single viewer would tune out.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> But they were only raiders because they were being forced into the lands of always winter. Now that they are allowed to roam freely will that continue?


They didn't seem to like the warm weather at winterfell

-smak-


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

nirisahn said:


> What will we talk about after GoT is over?


Oh, Good Lord, what will we do.......????? (Psst - I think we'll find something....)


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> But they were only raiders because they were being forced into the lands of always winter. Now that they are allowed to roam freely will that continue?


My most ridiculous hope is that someone will create a new Night King with all that dragon glass out of disgust for humanity. But it's unlikely. I can't have *all *the fun endings I want.


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

MacThor said:


> Yes, but HBO didn't rush the show-runners. The show-runners rushed it themselves.


Agreed. And I wonder how much of that is just having detailed source outlines vs completed source material? While I admired how they took dense, sometimes complex source material and brought it to life so well on the small screen, I think that once they eclipsed the books, overall writing seemed to suffer for it. Nothing I could put my finger on to say "that's not how Martin would've blah blah blah", but just felt not quite the same.

I mean, I can easily imagine that what we watch in this season will feel like a Cliff Notes version if/when stories are published (whereas I didn't feel that way about earlier seasons in how they relate/compare to the books).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> But they were only raiders because they were being forced into the lands of always winter. Now that they are allowed to roam freely will that continue?


You are absolutely right. I don't even understand why this is a debate. The Wall was infused with magic to stop the white walkers. The Wildlings were just people trapped north of the wall when it was put up and raided "the south" since they were not bound by the laws of people who lived there. Now they have made peace and fought with them. The Wall and the Night Watch are no longer needed.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I notice on the second viewing that the Iron Fleet ships were much easier to destroy than the ships from the masters of Yunkai. Drogon could only light those ships on fire while the Iron Fleet ships exploded and split in half.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

smak said:


> And especially not in LESS episodes.












--Carlos "never gets old" V.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

smak said:


> And especially not in LESS episodes.





Unbeliever said:


>


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Watching carefully the sequence of events...the Lannisters throw down their weapons and shouts ring out (ha ha) one after the other to "ring the bell" and it echoes all through the city. Drogon and Dany are atop of some wall. Cersei is watching from the Red Keep.

The bell tolls. Cersei closes her eyes in defeat. Her soldiers and her city have surrendered. Everyone relaxes just a little but Dany is disappointed, then gets madder...angrier...*she looks at the red keep, she knows Cersei is there*. Drogon takes off and she steers him towards the Red Keep...then the slaughter of civilians begins.

I think the key here is that Dany knew where Cersei was. She wasn't being systematic to make sure Cersei wasn't hiding in the slums. She had not had enough blood and wanted to burn the entire city down.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

They won't love her, so they will fear her.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I notice on the second viewing that the Iron Fleet ships were much easier to destroy than the ships from the masters of Yunkai. Drogon could only light those ships on fire while the Iron Fleet ships exploded and split in half.


You mean how dragon fire could cause brick structures to suddenly explode? How can wooden ships compare then?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> You mean how dragon fire could cause brick structures to suddenly explode? How can wooden ships compare then?


My point is that these ships and the ships at Mereen (or Yunkai) reacted very differently. These ships exploded. A few seasons ago, the other ships simply caught fire.

Maybe explained simply by Drogon being older/more powerful. But the difference was striking.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Parenting tip PSA: If your child is afraid and crying because of the war, death, and blood right outside; do hug your child and comfort her. However, do not do so with the window open and a dragon is flying buy burning everything in its path.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

All I know is, the way these last few episodes have gone down, fan-wise, does not bode well for Star Wars fandom when Benioff & Weiss offer their take on that!

(Personally I’m not looking forward to them joining the SW ranks)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nirisahn said:


> What will we talk about after GoT is over?


What about Big Bang The . . . oh wait, nevermind.


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

cwoody222 said:


> All I know is, the way these last few episodes have gone down, fan-wise, does not bode well for Star Wars fandom when Benioff & Weiss offer their take on that!
> 
> (Personally I'm not looking forward to them joining the SW ranks)


God no. If I'm Disney, I pull that contract and burn it with wildfire. Star Wars has enough problems already without these two bozos.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Odds Bodkins said:


> God no. If I'm Disney, I pull that contract and burn it with wildfire. Star Wars has enough problems already without these two bozos.


The funny/bad/good thing is that the big rumors are that the OTHER new trilogy has been killed.

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

two final observations as I finish the episode:

1. The closing credits is a new arrangement of "The Queen's Justice". We heard this at the end of the episode named "The Queen's Justice" which ended with Olena drinking the poison and the end of the Tyrells.

2. Dany reminds me of Little Finger. She is truly the queen of the ashes.


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

smak said:


> The funny/bad/good thing is that the big rumors are that the OTHER new trilogy has been killed.
> 
> -smak-


From your lips to The Maker's ears!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

nirisahn said:


> What will we talk about after GoT is over?


And BBT in the same week! No more Dany is not that insane or Penny is a drunk felon threads!


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> There was some funny in there.
> 
> But honestly, they could have 60 minutes of riding horses and eating turkey legs and not a single viewer would tune out.


That may have been what was actually happening during the battle with the night king. It was so dark, who could tell?


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Wow. I didn't know dragons had pin point accuracy with their flames. If I was standing next to Varys, I would have backed up a 100 yards or so.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Odds Bodkins said:


> God no. If I'm Disney, I pull that contract and burn it with wildfire. Star Wars has enough problems already without these two bozos.


Hmm, GREAT visual effects and lackluster dialogue and story? Sounds like they'll fit RIGHT in alongside Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

getbak said:


> I happened to rewatch the Battle of Blackwater episode on Saturday, so this made me laugh when Tyrion kept talking about the bells.


Now he knows.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> To the folks that named their daughters Khaleesi, I'm so sorry.


I gave my wife a "Mother of Dragons" T-shirt for Mother's day.

As of 9pm last night she was still planning on wearing it to work today... As of 10pm, notsomuch.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

For people questioning Daenerys' motivations, the "ends justify the means" attitude has been building in her character for some time.

First she was betrayed by Mirri, whom she had tried to help:






(And ironically, Mirri ended up becoming part of the ritual that brought Drogon into the world. What would have happened instead had she saved Drogo without having killed Daenerys' human child?)

(The Night King probably would have taken over Westeros.)

Then she was betrayed by Xaro, whom she thanked for teaching her "this lesson":






She punished both of them, and felt justified in doing so because they had betrayed her trust.

After that, she betrayed Kraznys:






Now, he was a horrible person as were all the masters. But still, none of those people had wronged her directly. However, she felt justified in taking the actions that she did in order to free the Unsullied.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Then, after taking Mereen, she punished the Great Masters for nailing the children to mileposts:






Barristan advised Daenerys to show mercy, but she responded that she would answer "injustice with justice". As in the case of Astapor, the Great Masters of Mereen had committed horrible deeds, so Daenerys felt justified in punishing them.

But things were not so simple because apparently not all of the Great Masters had agreed to those actions.

Still, one could argue that Hizdahr's father was guilty by association and could have done more to stop the others from having gone through with their deeds. I'm sure that's how Daenerys justified it to herself. But we saw Daenerys begin to become more comfortable with accepting collateral damage in order to achieve her goals.

She then decided to send Daario to Yunkai to kill all of the masters, and was only convinced otherwise when Jorah talked her down.

But when Barristan was killed, she decided to round up the leaders of the great families of Meereen in order to make an example of one of them:






She outright admitted that she had no idea of the innocence or guilt of any of them.

Finally, when Yunkai and Astapor attacked Meereen, Daenerys wanted to burn those cities to the ground:






Tyrion had to convince her to take a different route.

But by this episode, she no longer trusted his counsel, and there was nobody else left to hold her back.

With Jon pulling away from her, she now feels alone. Like her father, she fears people are plotting against her in the shadows of every corner. She's probably at least partially right about some of them, but her paranoia could be her undoing.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)




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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> With Jon pulling away from her, she now feels alone.


The one quibble I'd make is that she's really pushing Jon away from her...he's been trying to stand by her far beyond reason, I'd say, but in the end there's only so much pushing he can take, and he's reached his limit.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I am reminded by the oaths exchanged between a Lord and his/her sworn protector.

"I vow that you should always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table. *I pledge to ask no service of you that may bring you dishonor*. I swear it by the old gods and the new"

I wonder if Greyworm will feel good about what he's done now that he's had his revenge. We know Dany will not feel bad; but will Greyworm feel the sting of dishonor?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Depends on your point of view. I don't think he's failed. I'm not sure I'd quite call him the hero of the story though either.


That's my perspective. Like every other modern day hero, he's had his dark side, he's not always won, but he's done some heroic things, especially going out and facing White Walkers. One thing he did was get some of the Freefolk on the side of folks from Westeros.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Marco said:


> I agree. He's more likely to go back to Winterfell and open up a tavern.


Where everybody knows your name?


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

Interesting take on Dany.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-sudden-game-of-thrones-turn-was-actually-a-long-ti-1834722527


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

As with almost all of these high profile series finale seasons we get the usual "some love it, some hate it". Some say it's bad writing others say, no, the clues have been there and this is exactly why it should have happened the way it did. Who are we to question what happened? We may not like the ending but this is the ending that D&D envisioned, and I guess GRRM worked with them on this? I think a lot of us here are upset on what happened with Dany, or the way certain characters lived and died. But WE didn't write this did we? I've yet to find an ending to a long running show that ended the way I expected, and I think it will be the same here. Perhaps that's better? I don't know. After thinking about this for a couple of days, not being happy with vengeful Dany, I've just come to the conclusion that this is the story and that's it. No ending will satisfy everyone. The hero wins? Too sappy, the hero is killed? Boooo, we want our heroes to live. Everyone is a critic  My only complaint is that it feels rushed, but I think the story is the story, and really, it's still damned great!!


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I am was a book reader well before the show was even announced. I say that not to suggest that my opinion of this episode/season is any more valid, but because it informs my perspective. Unlike someone who posted a short while back, even when the show tracked the books I always viewed it as a cliff notes version so my whole experience with this show is cutting it a lot of slack and just enjoying it as it hits the high points. In that regard the show as a whole has exceeded my wildest expectations. I think because I have always felt this way, I have not been as bothered by the even cliffier notes version (is that a word?) that we are getting this year. I enjoyed episode 4 even recognizing the increasingly ludicrous nature of travel times and obvious moving of pieces.

With all that said, I loved this episode and was actually pretty shocked to go online and see all the hate. After it ended, my first thought was that all the complaints from last week would die down because the moving of the pieces (rushed as they may be) paid off in spades. I absolutely think Dany's development could have used a little more massaging before the turn, but I also think we had enough to work with that it's unfair to act as if it came out of nowhere. I think as a book reader at this point all I was looking for was to finally see what happens and Dany turning into the Mad Queen is a satisfying plot development to me even though I recognize that it could have been set up better in the final stretch. However, I am not a tv critic nor am I a screenwriting professor. I am, however, a viewer and as such I enjoyed the holy hell out of this episode.

As for Jaimie, I know I am in the minority, but I just don't see that they did anything to undermine his arc. I never viewed him as completely rehabilitated, but just not nearly the black hat he was portrayed as at the beginning. Like many characters on this show, Jaimie is a unique shade of gray. When keeping in mind that only a few months ago he was still sleeping with Cersei, I'm not sure how his inability to give her up undermines anything. I'll admit that I would have preferred if Brienne just died in battle so that we were spared her heartbreak, but I was totally not surprised or taken aback when Jaimie went back to King's Landing because I've never thought of him as a good guy, just a flawed character capable of good and bad. Jaimie and Cersei have always had a strange but strong bond and it was rightfully his undoing.

This series of tweets, written after last week's episode, offers what I think is a really insightful explanation for some of the writing issues this year. Definitely worth a two minute read for those who are interested.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125856091261136896


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

3D said:


> I am was a book reader well before the show was even announced. I say that not to suggest that my opinion of this episode/season is any more valid, but because it informs my perspective. Unlike someone who posted a short while back, even when the show tracked the books I always viewed it as a cliff notes version so my whole experience with this show is cutting it a lot of slack and just enjoying it as it hits the high points. In that regard the show as a whole has exceeded my wildest expectations. I think because I have always felt this way, I have not been as bothered by the even cliffier notes version (is that a word?) that we are getting this year. I enjoyed episode 4 even recognizing the increasingly ludicrous nature of travel times and obvious moving of pieces.
> 
> With all that said, I loved this episode and was actually pretty shocked to go online and see all the hate. After it ended, my first thought was that all the complaints from last week would die down because the moving of the pieces (rushed as they may be) paid off in spades. I absolutely think Dany's development could have used a little more massaging before the turn, but I also think we had enough to work with that it's unfair to act as if it came out of nowhere. I think as a book reader at this point all I was looking for was to finally see what happens and Dany turning into the Mad Queen is a satisfying plot development to me even though I recognize that it could have been set up better in the final stretch. However, I am not a tv critic nor am I a screenwriting professor. I am, however, a viewer and as such I enjoyed the holy hell out of this episode.
> 
> ...


Great post. I have only read the first and part of the second book (and there have been very few TV series/movies better than the books), and there's just no way you could go into the level of detail that a book does, and you lose a little bit of that for some series and a LOT for others). With that said, you're spot on. Your quibbles are mine. Dany's plunge into "the dark side" as it were, needed to be sussed out a bit more is my only complaint. A book can do that much better. But the fact that she went there, after i thought about it and got over my initial shock, shouldn't have surprised me. As for Jamie, I would have much preferred a spark with Brienne, without sleeping with her, maybe they kiss, he realizes that he is who he is and then lets her down much more easily, but I guess that's not who he is either. He's always been a scoundrel who in the end was still one, despite a series of attempts to rehabilitate him.

I am ready for whatever they throw at me in the finale. I'm sure some of it I will like, some I won't. As long as the main story, who ends up on the throne is settled, I'll be ok with whatever that is.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Nevermind.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think it would have been great if Cersei - upon seeing Jaime had come for her - had exclaimed: "Jaime! I'm so glad the assassin I sent to kill you did not succeed!"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I double the nevermind!


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## spartanstew (Feb 24, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> I don't get why people are surprised by Dany. It was completely in character for her to ignore the bells and burn the city down.


Sometimes people hope that over the course of a series, the characters might grow. When they end up being the same person they were, it's a bit of a let down.

That being said, holy cow, some of you take this show a bit too seriously. It's just a TV show.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> For people questioning Daenerys' motivations, the "ends justify the means" attitude has been building in her character for some time.
> 
> First she was betrayed by Mirri, whom she had tried to help:
> 
> ...


She's awesome.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Is this just a transparent attempt to start a 10-page argument in this thread? I urge others not to take the bait...


No. My participation in these threads over the years has been sporadic so if this topic at the time caused heated arguments here it is certainly not my intent to re-raise them now. I will delete that part of the post.

ETA: Although I will say that the tone of your post is really rude, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your rudeness was as unintentional as my "transparent baiting". That comment might be appropriate towards a poster who is known for trying to stir things up, but I can't imagine I fall into that category.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The hard stop of this show forced the condensing of time and character arcs. I can understand that criticism but did we really need three or four more episodes of Dany getting more and more pissed off to prove that she's unworthy and Jon rescuing drowning puppies to prove he's noble? The seeds of their characters have been sown over the years. You can nitpick holes and find things you don't like in every story every told. If you can't, someone else will. That doesn't prove that the writing is bad and don't know what they're doing. It just means that you would have preferred something different. Personally, I wish they'd would have condensed even more of Snidely Whiplash, I mean Euron Greyjoy, out of the story. Cercei and Jamie is just yuck. I wouldn't have had them together at their end. They had to get to a point where Dany didn't believe in Tyrion's counsel any more, so he became not so smart this season. Jon needed a dragon to help substantiate his claim as a Targaryen but he couldn't have a dragon to confront Dany with so his dragon had to die. Those are just a couple of things I would have done differently but that doesn't mean that the show runners' ideas were bad. I'll be happy I spent the time on this season and the series as a whole no matter what the finale unfolds. Unless it's a cliffhanger, then I'll be mad.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this was an *excellent* *episode*.

We finally had some effective dragon tactics.

We had several good major-character deaths. The good guys died well and the bad/gray guys died in character. Specifically, Jaime died comforting the woman he loved. That's not so bad and it's in character.

Dany's broken. She may well _say_ that she only has fear to work with and that she needed to intimidate the rest of Westeros, but that's an excuse. She's Mad Queen broken. Stop looking for reason. And as other's have pointed out, it shouldn't be a surprise. Grey Worm is broken, too.

We saw Tyrion and Jon's dawning realization that Dany's broken.

We saw Arya realize that being the one to kill Cersei wasn't worth her life.

My only nit, and it's minor, is Arya and the horse being the only living things as far as you could see. That's up there with the ratio of major/unknown characters surviving the battle with the NK. It would've been more realistic if a couple of other people were seen pulling themselves out of the rubble, too. But then she couldn't ride away on a Pale Horse if others there needed help. They must have really wanted that imagery.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Is this just a transparent attempt to start a 10-page argument in this thread? I urge others not to take the bait...


Even if it was, let the community decide what it wants to comment on, not the thread police.

Jaime didn't rape Brienne so that should count for something. The weird thing is that Jaime's hair got darker as he became a better person.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Edited: I got called out for spelling and grammar errors.
I think if they had removed the heavy handed "*****es be crazy" mantra this season it would have been better.
It all started released with me in the scene with Jon and Sam in the crypt where Sam, having never meet met Dany before tells Jon she's crazy and he should be King. It was too heavy handed. His Sam's dad and brother were idiots refusing an offer they should've have refused. If killing people who were insubordinate was a critical flaw in the right to the throne then Jon should be disqualified for when he beheaded Janos Slynt.
Then Sansa, why was Sansa so very anti Dany to the point of rude and insulting. Then Tyron Tyrion suddenly being "afraid" of Dany? Why And why was Varys suddenly hard dropping his support of Dany?
I hate the way the writers did it.
Honestly if they just removed what I suggested in the paragraph above, and after losing Missendai, rhaegal, Jon no longer being intimately close, and the lack of love she was used to be getting from those she fought for, and she just suddenly went genocide, I think even that would've been better than what we got.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tlc said:


> The more I think about it, the more I believe that this was an *excellent* *episode*.
> 
> We finally had some effective dragon tactics.
> 
> ...


As we saw in the scenes from the Keep, the city is huge. Dany didn't torch all of it. And even places she burned had survivors. There will be thousands and thousands of survivors, including many of our favorite characters.

I also thought it was an excellent episode. The ending with the white horse was a bit hokey, but I'll survive.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

3D said:


> No. My participation in these threads over the years has been sporadic so if this topic at the time caused heated arguments here it is certainly not my intent to re-raise them now. I will delete that part of the post.
> 
> ETA: Although I will say that the tone of your post is really rude, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your rudeness was as unintentional as my "transparent baiting". That comment might be appropriate towards a poster who is known for trying to stir things up, but I can't imagine I fall into that category.


I apologize. Usually, it's the people who don't post a lot who try to troll (or Trolls are well known). I made an assumption given the history of this argument (dear Lord, it was a doozy back in the day) and I should have asked first.



cheesesteak said:


> Even if it was, let the community decide what it wants to comment on, not the thread police.
> 
> Jaime didn't rape Brienne so that should count for something. The weird thing is that Jaime's hair got darker as he became a better person.


I am part of the community and I noticed what I thought was a trolling attempt and pointed it out before people fell for it. If that's a thread police, so be it. And, in that case, don't police the policeman


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I think if they had removed the heavy handed "*****es be crazy" mantra this season it would have been better.
> It all started released me in the scene with Jon and Sam in the crypt where Sam, having never meet Dany before tells Jon she's crazy and he should be King. It was too heavy handed. His dad and brother were idiots refusing an offer they should've have refused. If killing people who were insubordinate was a critical flaw in the right to the throne then Jon should be disqualified for when he beheaded Janos Slynt.
> Then Sansa, why was Sansa so very anti Dany to the point of rude and insulting. Then Tyron suddenly being "afraid" of Dany? Why was Varys suddenly hard dropping his support of Dany?
> I hate the way the writers did it.
> *Honestly if they just removed what I suggested in the paragraph above* and after losing Missendai, rhaegal, Jon no longer being close, and the lack of love she was used to be getting from those she fought for, and she just suddenly went genocide, even that would've been better than what we got.


Including all the grammar and spelling errors?  I'm throwing stones from an all-glass house, I know, but I couldn't help making the joke 

I do disagree with one point: Janos mutinied. He didn't disagree with the commander, he outright refused a direct order in front of everyone and hoped to rally others to support his refusal. The penalty for that is death. Jon did nothing wrong there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I do disagree with one point: Janos mutinied. He didn't disagree with the commander, he outright refused a direct order in front of everyone and hoped to rally others to support his refusal. The penalty for that is death. Jon did nothing wrong there.


And one of Jon's big character flaws is that he always does the "right thing," whether or not it's the right thing to do. Which often gets him in trouble.

One of Dany's big character flaws is that you never know whether she'll do the "right thing," the right thing, or some entirely different thing.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I apologize. Usually, it's the people who don't post a lot who try to troll (or Trolls are well known). I made an assumption given the history of this argument (dear Lord, it was a doozy back in the day) and I should have asked first.


Thanks. That said, you might want to delete the quote from my original post, which I have since removed.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> The hard stop of this show forced the condensing of time and character arcs. I can understand that criticism but did we really need three or four more episodes of Dany getting more and more pissed off to prove that she's unworthy and Jon rescuing drowning puppies to prove he's noble? The seeds of their characters have been sown over the years. You can nitpick holes and find things you don't like in every story every told. If you can't, someone else will. That doesn't prove that the writing is bad and don't know what they're doing. It just means that you would have preferred something different. Personally, I wish they'd would have condensed even more of Snidely Whiplash, I mean Euron Greyjoy, out of the story. Cercei and Jamie is just yuck. I wouldn't have had them together at their end. They had to get to a point where Dany didn't believe in Tyrion's counsel any more, so he became not so smart this season. Jon needed a dragon to help substantiate his claim as a Targaryen but he couldn't have a dragon to confront Dany with so his dragon had to die. Those are just a couple of things I would have done differently but that doesn't mean that the show runners' ideas were bad. I'll be happy I spent the time on this season and the series as a whole no matter what the finale unfolds. Unless it's a cliffhanger, then I'll be mad.


Exactly! The one thing I can fault the writers for "rushing things". That's their own fault, but there might be a lot of behind the scenes stuff we are not privy to that causes this to happen. Maybe certain key actors were not keen on another season, or the expense of doing more episodes were prohibitive, or, maybe, they just got tired of it all and decided that this was enough. Who knows? But the writing itself has been stellar and remains so. If you start driving your self crazy with nitpicks, you'll never enjoy what you see. I notice them, and unless they are SO egregious that it ruins the story, I just don't care that much. Go on IMDB sometimes and look at just about every series and you'll find some weird continuity issues and other things.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

3D said:


> Thanks. That said, you might want to delete the quote from my original post, which I have since removed.


Done. I'm really sorry for not checking first.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

I'm just looking forward to the spinoff where Brienne, when she finds out Jaime is gone forever, runs north to the consoling arms of Tormund Giantsbane and they raise Jaime's love child, Brieamie <whatever bastards north of the Wall are called - maybe Glacier?> to be the world's most honorable, strongest, handsome/beautiful person ever conceived during a one-night stand and he/she eventually leads the united Wildlings south to King's Landing to wrest the Iron Throne from the evil Danerys Targaryen.

ETA: The way things have been produced lately, this spinoff would just be three 45-minute episodes.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Another theme of the series that we've seen play out over and over is that our heroes (and villains for that matter) rarely ever get what they want or are driven to. Net wanted the truth to be out there and lost his head because of it. Sansa wanted to be princess, and got tortured and raped for wanting it. Tyrion wanted respect, and while he got it from Jaime at the very end, Jaime dies, he never got it from Tywin or Cersie, and while he got it from Dany for awhile, in the end she turns mad and loses respect from her. Jon just wanted a life at the Wall, and ends up (well we don't know yet). Arya never gets to cross off all the names on her list, and lastly Dany wanted to be Queen, and ends up going B.S. crazy getting there (and I bet never gets to the Iron Throne).


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TampaThunder said:


> I'm just looking forward to the spinoff where Brienne, when she finds out Jaime is gone forever, runs north to the consoling arms of Tormund Giantsbane ...


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Exactly! The one thing I can fault the writers for "rushing things".


I do wonder if making this seasons episodes a little shorter, and adding four more episodes would have fixed the pacing issue this season.

We didn't need an 80 minutes fight in the dark episode. We didn't need an 80 minute fight in the daytime episode. Sure, even cutting all the 80-minute episodes down to 60, you'd still have to add some more minutes. I just feel that ten episodes does a season justice.

Regardless, I'm not bothered by Dany's quick turn to the dark side. Clearly they wanted her burning of the city to be a sudden / shock moment, and when we look back across the seasons, the signs are actually there. Many of us have previously commented on how she was more a conqueror than the leader, or how other people in her inner circle (particularly Jorah) were moderating forces upon her behavior. This isn't the series where the character you root for always has a happy ending, and we've liked it for that.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Including all the grammar and spelling errors?  I'm throwing stones from an all-glass house, I know, but I couldn't help making the joke


Posting from my phone while watching Paw Patrol with my daughter. The writing is better on Nick Jr., Stole my full attention so I made some spelling and grammar errors. I'll own them.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

smbaker said:


> I do wonder if making this seasons episodes a little shorter, and adding four more episodes would have fixed the pacing issue this season.
> 
> We didn't need an 80 minutes fight in the dark episode. We didn't need an 80 minute fight in the daytime episode. Sure, even cutting all the 80-minute episodes down to 60, you'd still have to add some more minutes. I just feel that ten episodes does a season justice.
> 
> Regardless, I'm not bothered by Dany's quick turn to the dark side. Clearly they wanted her burning of the city to be a sudden / shock moment, and when we look back across the seasons, the signs are actually there. Many of us have previously commented on how she was more a conqueror than the leader, or how other people in her inner circle (particularly Jorah) were moderating forces upon her behavior. This isn't the series where the character you root for always has a happy ending, and we've liked it for that.


I didn't find an issue with the episode lengths (as usual, it was almost an hour into the episode before I realized what time it was, and could have watched another hour). I just think having the usual 10 episodes we saw earlier in the series would have worked. But, then I think about it, and everyone here would complain about an episode or two where "nothing happened" not realizing that they are setting us up for what comes next. That's what is "missing" this season, those setup episodes that when you go back and rewatch you realize what they were doing with those. I think back to the scene in S1 where Robert and Cersie have their conversation before Robert goes off on his "hunt". Without that, we might not have understood all of her motivations in having him murdered. Subtle little scenes that were missing this season. Not really complaining, but it would have helped some.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

TampaThunder said:


> I'm just looking forward to the spinoff where Brienne, when she finds out Jaime is gone forever, runs north to the consoling arms of Tormund Giantsbane and they raise Jaime's love child, Brieamie <whatever bastards north of the Wall are called - maybe Glacier?> to be the world's most honorable, strongest, handsome/beautiful person ever conceived during a one-night stand and he/she eventually leads the united Wildlings south to King's Landing to wrest the Iron Throne from the evil Danerys Targaryen.
> 
> *ETA: The way things have been produced lately, this spinoff would just be three 45-minute episodes.*


Split over four years.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Ugh, the Star Wars trilogy from Benioff and Weiss is confirmed and coming sooner rather than later.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-star-wars-films-after-rise-of-skywalker-will-1834749699


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Ugh, the Star Wars trilogy from Benioff and Weiss is confirmed and coming sooner rather than later.
> 
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-star-wars-films-after-rise-of-skywalker-will-1834749699


A bit off topic, but I'm sick of Star Wars films. For me at least, it's kind of ruined what was so special about the original trilogy. And we know that Disney is just making these because they know they are guaranteed to make money, not for any type of need to tell this or that story. That said, I'm sure I'll go see them.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Tsiehta said:


> Interesting take on Dany.
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-sudden-game-of-thrones-turn-was-actually-a-long-ti-1834722527


I actually liked this. Usually these type of commentary videos annoy me but she really did touch on all the reasons we should have seen this coming. I appreciate Sunday's episode much more after the blog post I posted yesterday and this. I guess it's easy to forget the "bad" she's done because it all seemed for the overall good then. Now she has no slaves to free, nobody here needs saving from evil overlords and masters and don't want her. She loses everyone that could have tempered her true nature so yeah okay I'm down with her burning the city. I mean I hate that she did that and believe she must die now but I no longer am going to call foul on the writing so much.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> And we know that Disney is just making these because they know they are guaranteed to make money, not for any type of need to tell this or that story.


This is fundamentally different from other movies (especially blockbusters) how, exactly?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> This is fundamentally different from other movies (especially blockbusters) how, exactly?


Not at all. The only difference to me is the reverence of the original trilogy over any of the newer movies. There's something "special" about them. i don't feel that way about other movie series. But, like anything else, it's purely a subjective viewpoint.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Anubys said:


> My point is that these ships and the ships at Mereen (or Yunkai) reacted very differently. These ships exploded. A few seasons ago, the other ships simply caught fire.
> 
> Maybe explained simply by Drogon being older/more powerful. But the difference was striking.


Maybe (just my hypothesis) Drogon took on the powers of his/her dead siblings which multiplied his/her fire. And Drogon is now battle-tested and angrier than ever, so that might have an effect on "dragon-breath".


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Done. I'm really sorry for not checking first.


Aw, you two. If only Dany and Cersei could have worked it out like that.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

getreal said:


> Maybe (just my hypothesis) Drogon took on the powers of his/her dead siblings which multiplied his/her fire. And Drogon is now battle-tested and angrier than ever, so that might have an effect on "dragon-breath".


My theory stems from the deep psychological connection between them. We've seen him come to her when she needs him (twice in Mereen). We've seen him temper his fire to only roast two Tarleys and not the entire army. The rage coursing through her veins for all the reasons discussed earlier connected with Drogon's adrenaline and his fire became so much more powerful because of it.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

tivotvaddict said:


> My theory stems from the deep psychological connection between them. We've seen him come to her when she needs him (twice in Mereen). We've seen him temper his fire to only roast two Tarleys and not the entire army. The rage coursing through her veins for all the reasons discussed earlier connected with Drogon's adrenaline and his fire became so much more powerful because of it.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking with it.


It's as good of reason as any. I mean if he just breathed fire then brick structures wouldn't just explode like a Michel Bay movie. It's more like his mouth turns into a rocket engine and the sound waves just obliterate anything he's got it pointed at. Or in reality the show-runners just wanted "splosion!!!"


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> My theory stems from the deep psychological connection between them. We've seen him come to her when she needs him (twice in Mereen). We've seen him temper his fire to only roast two Tarleys and not the entire army. The rage coursing through her veins for all the reasons discussed earlier connected with Drogon's adrenaline and his fire became so much more powerful because of it.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking with it.


It makes perfect sense that Dragon have varying degrees of fire they can breathe. In fact, it seems silly to think it's only "on" and "off".

They breathe, like any animal. They can breathe harder or softer.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Tsiehta said:


> Interesting take on Dany.
> 
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-sudden-game-of-thrones-turn-was-actually-a-long-ti-1834722527


This! Is it wrong if I call this article well-written solely because it puts into words my own thesis about Dany's carnage?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> It makes perfect sense that Dragon have varying degrees of fire they can breathe. In fact, it seems silly to think it's only "on" and "off".
> 
> They breathe, like any animal. They can breathe harder or softer.


 big bad wolf on steroids?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Cersei's big miscalculation was executing Missandei. She was playing the game better than anyone until that point.

"Dracarys" - pushed Dany too far.
She also lost a valuable hostage/human shield; probably the best one she could ever hope for.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

My end theory. Dany binds Jon up, flys North to winterfel to show those Starks they need to show some love to the queen. They get there, Bran says some things like he saw everything unfold in a future that was possible, so he let things happened as they may hoping for the best. Wargs into Drogo, eats Dany. A confused Drogo looks at Jon and is like "Well you're a Targaryen, guess I belong to you now." Jon rides South and tells the unsullied and Dothraki to either leave across the narrow sea or he'll "unleash the dragon"


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Just a heads-up...the Sunday after the finalé (May 26), HBO is showing a two-hour behind-the-scenes special, which the 1P isn't catching. So if you're into that sort of thing, you'll have to go manual (unless it changes between now and then).


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I think Jamie is dead, but am pretty sure Cersei is not. 

IMO the most likely person to end up on the Iron Throne now is Gendry.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

mitkraft said:


> I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


If they didn't die immediately, there's no way they'd be rescued under all of the rubble before dying from starvation/dehydration, IMHO.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I like this article: A Military Strategist on Why Daenerys' Scorched-Earth Policy May Not Be So Mad After All



> Political considerations necessarily infuse strategic calculations. For Queen Daenerys Targaryen, seizure of King's Landing and the deposition of the usurper Cersei no longer cuts it. Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) has a better claim to the throne; he has a base of operations, a narrative of legitimacy, and his own army. Even if Jon doesn't want to be King, people who dislike Daenerys will fight in his name. Dany is no longer the presumptive Targaryen heir and can no longer rely on her family's right to the throne.
> 
> She can rely on Drogon, however. Her claim to the throne rests on demonstrating the power of her dragon.





> Thus, we can't think of the destruction of King's Landing as an undisciplined sack in the same sense as Jerusalem in 1099. It is a purposeful act, meant to demonstrate the queen's power in service of securing her claim to rulership over Westeros.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Yet another case of The Simpson's predicting our future.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127899443746025473


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


I thought of this too. But I remember reading somewhere that it was confirmed by the production team? (it's also possible I don't remember as well as I say I did  )


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> confirmed by the production team?...


I think the producer noted, "they came into the world together and left together."


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I think Jamie is dead, but am pretty sure Cersei is not.
> 
> IMO the most likely person to end up on the Iron Throne now is Gendry.


Normally I might agree with you, but with one episode left, I don't think there's time for Cersei to still play a role in this. The battle now has to be between Dany and the Starks (on one Targaryan who was brought up a Stark).


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I like this article: A Military Strategist on Why Daenerys' Scorched-Earth Policy May Not Be So Mad After All


Well, she could have just killed one innocent guy, Jon Snow, instead of killing thousands of innocent men, women, and _children_.

Jon would have probably volunteered.



heySkippy said:


> I think Jamie is dead, but am pretty sure Cersei is not.


Agree that I'm almost certain Jamie didn't make it. He shouldn't really have made it past his fight with Euron. He appeared mortally wounded, then "got better" just long enough to find Cersei.

I think Cersei is likely goner too.

I am curious whether the bodies will be found in the finale. Depending on how much time takes place between this episode and the finale, maybe survivors will have dug through the rubble. It would be a useful plot point for Tyrion to know the fate of his siblings before the final conflict.

Whatever happened to that Sand Snake woman? Is she down there in some dungeon cell under all that rubble too?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


Because the Red Keep was dropped on them. Even if they miraculously survived that, they'd be trapped under tons of rubble and no one would be looking for them. Jamie was already bleeding out so he wouldn't last long. I guess Cersei could last a few days maybe, but they aren't surviving that.

If anyone survived their death scene it would be the Mountain.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

markp99 said:


> I think the producer noted, "they came into the world together and left together."


Yep, I think that's the quote I remember reading.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


Like the scene next week with a charred Mountain crawling out from under a huge pile of rubble.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It'll be too much like a bad horror movie if Cercei is still alive.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> It makes perfect sense that Dragon have varying degrees of fire they can breathe. In fact, it seems silly to think it's only "on" and "off".
> 
> They breathe, like any animal. They can breathe harder or softer.


We've seen the aftermath of the utter devastation a Dragon can unleash in Harrenhal.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Cersei's big miscalculation was executing Missandei. She was playing the game better than anyone until that point.
> 
> "Dracarys" - pushed Dany too far.
> She also lost a valuable hostage/human shield; probably the best one she could ever hope for.


Yeah, killing Missandei was dramatic, but served little purpose. Should have kept her as a prisoner.

Unless, of course, she was hoping that would make Dany fly off the handle and attack immediately, with a dozen scorpions at the ready to bring down Drogon. That ploy almost worked.

But Dany was too smart and too not crazy to fall for that.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mitkraft said:


> I'm not sure why everybody seems to be comfortable in the assumption that Jamie and Cersei are dead. I've always gone by the old adage that if you don't see a character actually dead then they probably aren't. I wouldn't be one be surprised if one or both of them lived.


I tried to entertain that thought but just don't see it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

smbaker said:


> Well, she could have just killed one innocent guy, Jon Snow, instead of killing thousands of innocent men, women, and _children_.
> 
> Jon would have probably volunteered.


Well, YEAH.

It kinda scares me that that guy is teaching US soldiers how to fight wars...I can almost see a wave of future war crimes happening.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

He's not advocating mass slaughter. He's explaining the strategy and implications as to why someone would commit mass slaughter.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> He's not advocating mass slaughter. He's explaining the strategy and implications as to why someone would commit mass slaughter.


Yeah, I can see it as a form of "Shock & Awe", especially in light of Dani's comment about fear.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

allan said:


> Yeah, I can see it as a form of "Shock & Awe", especially in light of Dani's comment about fear.


I don't think there's any other way to see it. A lot of people are calling her the mad queen but we've seen no evidence that she is afflicted with the same mental issues as other Targaryens, who are prone to serious psychiatric problems due to genetics and incest.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I don't think there's any other way to see it. A lot of people are calling her the mad queen but we've seen no evidence that she is afflicted with the same mental issues as other Targaryens, who are prone to serious psychiatric problems due to genetics and incest.


Yeah, I'm not at all seeing any Mad Queen in her. She kicks ass, that's it. She's fed up with all the tricks and politics and friends and her babies dying and simply ended it. She won.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sorry, anybody who mass-murders civilians who have already surrendered is as mad as a hatter, as far as I'm concerned.

Doesn't matter if she does it because it's what a sensible terrorist would do. Still insane.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sorry, anybody who mass-murders civilians who have already surrendered is as mad as a hatter, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Doesn't matter if she does it because it's what a sensible terrorist would do. Still insane.


The norms were different in ancient Westeros.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> I don't think there's any other way to see it. A lot of people are calling her the mad queen but we've seen no evidence that she is afflicted with the same mental issues as other Targaryens, who are prone to serious psychiatric problems due to genetics and incest.


Perhaps she's not mad, but simply evil.

If you're sufficiently evil, does that make you mad by definition? Perhaps it does.



uncdrew said:


> Yeah, I'm not at all seeing any Mad Queen in her. She kicks ass, that's it. She's fed up with all the tricks and politics and friends and her babies dying and simply ended it. She won


The battle and the war had already been won at the time she started killing innocent civilians and surrendered unarmed combatants.

IMO she looked pissed when the city surrendered. It was an emotional response, not a strategic response. I think that's what the producers were trying to show us.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sorry, anybody who mass-murders civilians who have already surrendered is as mad as a hatter, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Doesn't matter if she does it because it's what a sensible terrorist would do. Still insane.


Agreed, especially when she had alternatives.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anyone who thinks Jamie and/or Cersei survived that collapsing roof is insane.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sorry, anybody who mass-murders civilians who have already surrendered is as mad as a hatter, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Doesn't matter if she does it because it's what a sensible terrorist would do. Still insane.


90%+ of characters in GoT are "mad as a hatter" if you are going to judge them by their deeds in this manner. Off the top of my head: Arya (Frey pie), Cersei, Tywin, The Hound, The Mountain, most Dothraki, Walder Frey, most Boltons, Baelish, Lysa Arryn, etc.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Anyone who thinks Jamie and/or Cersei survived that collapsing roof is insane.


This is so true that, until the next episode airs, psychiatrists should ask all patients the question "Jamie, Cersie - alive or dead?" Anyone who answers "alive" would be immediately incarcerated in the nearest loony bin.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> This is so true that, until the next episode airs, psychiatrists should ask all patients the question "Jamie, Cersie - alive or dead?" Anyone who answers "alive" would be immediately incarcerated in the nearest loony bin.


Even after the finale, they should continue to ask the question. 



TAsunder said:


> Arya (Frey pie), Cersei, Tywin, The Hound, The Mountain, most Dothraki, Walder Frey, most Boltons, Baelish, Lysa Arryn, etc.


After that season with the faceless people, I did have Arya on my "Breaking Bad" list, but she seems to have walked back from the brink this season.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, I'm not at all seeing any Mad Queen in her. She kicks ass, that's it. She's fed up with all the tricks and politics and friends and her babies dying and simply ended it. She won.


She had already won before she started burning innocent civilians. If she had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned it to the ground, that would have been totally justified and I think everyone would have cheered. But to start destroying the parts of the city where there are no soldiers and no Cersei can only be explained by her becoming the Mad Queen. Basically, she did exactly what her father wanted to do and which caused Jaime to kill him in order to save the city. So if Aerys was the Mad King for simply wanting to burn the city down, doesn't that automatically make Dany the Mad Queen because she actually did it?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sorry, anybody who mass-murders civilians who have already surrendered is as mad as a hatter, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Doesn't matter if she does it because it's what a sensible terrorist would do. Still insane.


She's been talking about burning cities to the ground basically the whole series. So if she is mad, she's always been mad.

-smak-


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## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Dany talked about having to choose between ruling by love and by fear, but she made her choice before most of the people of Westoros ever encountered her. If after the surrender she'd gone straight to the Red Keep and incinerated Cersei and her cohorts, and accepted the surrender, she would have had the chance to rule by love. She never gave it a chance like she did in Essos.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> She had already won before she started burning innocent civilians. If she had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned it to the ground, that would have been totally justified and I think everyone would have cheered. But to start destroying the parts of the city where there are no soldiers and no Cersei can only be explained by her becoming the Mad Queen. Basically, she did exactly what her father wanted to do and which caused Jaime to kill him in order to save the city. So if Aerys was the Mad King for simply wanting to burn the city down, doesn't that automatically make Dany the Mad Queen because she actually did it?


What she did wasn't justified by any means but they are going to have to show us something else before she can be considered the Mad Queen in the same way her father was the Mad King. Dude had legit psychiatric issues. She isn't exhibiting any of the symptoms her father had (paranoid schizophrenia, thinking you'll turn into a dragon when you burn, etc.)


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Anyone who thinks Jamie and/or Cersei survived that collapsing roof is insane.


Maybe anyone who thinks they SHOULD have survived that cave-in is insane. But anybody who has watched a fair amount of TV and movies and also knows how the writing has been as of late might also be slightly loony if they didn't think it was a possibility that it was written that way given how they did not show us a definitive death.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> Maybe anyone who thinks they SHOULD have survived that cave-in is insane. But anybody who has watched a fair amount of TV and movies and also knows how the writing has been as of late might also be slightly loony if they didn't think it was a possibility that it was written that way given how they did not show us a definitive death.


There are actually a fair number of deaths shown off screen in this show. Maybe they'll bring Ellaria Sand back too. She was down there somewhere...


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I explained why I'm still happy with this season, but on a negative note, did the whole Cersei is pregnant with Jaimie's child thing serve any purpose? Based on how everything played out, the only thing I can surmise is that either they thought it would better explain Jaimie returning to King's Landing or to add some emotional weight to Cersei's death. As to the former, I don't think it added anything (i.e., either you bought into Jaimie returning to her or you didn't, regardless of the pregnancy). As for the second, at least for me it did not add anything to their final scene. Yet without that seemingly insignificant plot point, a lot of the issues people have with the travel times wouldn't be so blatant. Was it merely a device to convince Tyrion that he could reason with Cersei's love of her children? Whatever the pregnancy was intended to add, it seems to me that the negative far outweighed any benefit to the story.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> There are actually a fair number of deaths shown off screen in this show. Maybe they'll bring Ellaria Sand back too. She was down there somewhere...


Yeah, maybe Stannis is still alive in the forest north of Winterfell and just biding his time while all the other parties to the throne take each other out and then he'll emerge and stake his claim.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

3D said:


> I explained why I'm still happy with this season, but on a negative note, did the whole Cersei is pregnant with Jaimie's child thing serve any purpose? Based on how everything played out, the only thing I can surmise is that either they thought it would better explain Jaimie returning to King's Landing or to add some emotional weight to Cersei's death. As to the former, I don't think it added anything (i.e., either you bought into Jaimie returning to her or you didn't, regardless of the pregnancy). As for the second, at least for me it did not add anything to their final scene. Yet without that seemingly insignificant plot point, a lot of the issues people have with the travel times wouldn't be so blatant. Was it merely a device to convince Tyrion that he could reason with Cersei's love of her children? Whatever the pregnancy was intended to add, it seems to me that the negative far outweighed any benefit to the story.


I feel pretty much the same about Cleganebowl. I know it was much-anticipated, and truthfully I found it fun to watch, but I feel like it was included purely as fan-service. Added nothing to the story in any way.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Maybe Jon Snow is still alive after being stabbed and...oh, wait.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> There are actually a fair number of deaths shown off screen in this show. Maybe they'll bring Ellaria Sand back too. She was down there somewhere...


I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?


Beric Dondarrion


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?


Pretty much everybody.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

mitkraft said:


> I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?


On the show, none that I can think of. But (book spoilers):



Spoiler



In the books, Catelyn Stark and Sir Barristan Selmy are both still alive and breathing. Well, I'm not really sure Catelyn Stark is actually breathing or not.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

No, I'm not talking about people you thought were dead for one second or who were brought right back as we watched. I mean people who we "left for dead" either between shows or for longer where we were under the assumption they were.



ct1 said:


> Beric Dondarrion





MonsterJoe said:


> Pretty much everybody.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nirisahn said:


> Dany talked about having to choose between ruling by love and by fear, but she made her choice before most of the people of Westoros ever encountered her. If after the surrender she'd gone straight to the Red Keep and incinerated Cersei and her cohorts, and accepted the surrender, she would have had the chance to rule by love.


Although even then she would have killed the hundreds (thousands?) of innocent people Cersei had let into the Keep to act as human shields...


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

3D said:


> I explained why I'm still happy with this season, but on a negative note, did the whole Cersei is pregnant with Jaimie's child thing serve any purpose?


It caused Euron to be useful to Cersei as somebody she could say was the father.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

mitkraft said:


> I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?





mitkraft said:


> No, I'm not talking about people you thought were dead for one second or who were brought right back as we watched. I mean people who we "left for dead" either between shows or for longer where we were under the assumption they were.


The Hound.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Marco said:


> It caused Euron to be useful to Cersei as somebody she could say was the father.


...? For like 15 minutes.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

nirisahn said:


> Dany talked about having to choose between ruling by love and by fear, but she made her choice before most of the people of Westoros ever encountered her. If after the surrender she'd gone straight to the Red Keep and incinerated Cersei and her cohorts, and accepted the surrender, she would have had the chance to rule by love. She never gave it a chance like she did in Essos.


She is paranoid that Jon will be made king, so getting the fear level up to maximum is what she thinks she needs to do.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> ...? For like 15 minutes.


Which caused Euron to taunt Jamie about being intimate with Cersei, which gave us a Euron vs. Jamie swordfight nobody had been waiting for.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> She had already won before she started burning innocent civilians. If she had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned it to the ground, that would have been totally justified and I think everyone would have cheered. But to start destroying the parts of the city where there are no soldiers and no Cersei can only be explained by her becoming the Mad Queen. Basically, she did exactly what her father wanted to do and which caused Jaime to kill him in order to save the city. So if Aerys was the Mad King for simply wanting to burn the city down, doesn't that automatically make Dany the Mad Queen because she actually did it?


The ONLY argument one could make is that Dany would have to assume that the only place that she could be was the Red Keep. She could have Saddam Hueisened it and hid in any number of places in the city (and perhaps Dany assumed that Jaime went there to try and help her (correctly) and Jamie would try and help her escape.) Thus, by destroying the city, it increased her odds of Cersie being killed. With that said, I still think she just went mad.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

Marco said:


> Which caused Euron to taunt Jamie about being intimate with Cersei, which gave us a Euron vs. Jamie swordfight *nobody had been waiting for*.


True. The Cersei/Euron thing seemed out of left field and forced. It should have been Theon or Yara to kill Euron.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> The ONLY argument one could make is that Dany would have to assume that the only place that she could be was the Red Keep. She could have Saddam Hueisened it and hid in any number of places in the city (and perhaps Dany assumed that Jaime went there to try and help her (correctly) and Jamie would try and help her escape.) Thus, by destroying the city, it increased her odds of Cersie being killed. With that said, I still think she just went mad.


A) If Dany were trying to kill Cersei, the most logical place to start would be the Red Keep, and 2) We don't have any evidence that Dany knew Jaime had been set free.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> She is paranoid that Jon will be made king, so getting the fear level up to maximum is what she thinks she needs to do.


Her destruction is as much as a message to her own side than the people of King's landing.

-smak-


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> A) If Dany were trying to kill Cersei, the most logical place to start would be the Red Keep, and 2) We don't have any evidence that Dany knew Jaime had been set free.


True on your second point. On your first, sure it's the most OBVIOUS place, but if you thought that your city would be attacked and that your enemy would know where you'd most likely be, why would you stay there? The President goes up in AF1 or hides in a bunker, he doesn't sit in the Oval Office. We saw this during 9/11. So a smart attacker wouldn't assume that Cersei would be in the most obvious place.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> She could have Saddam Hueisened it and hid in any number of places in the city (and perhaps Dany assumed that Jaime went there to try and help her (correctly) and Jamie would try and help her escape.)


Strategically, Cersei with the Lannister army defeated and surrendered, King's Landing captured, broke, and hiding out in a cave somewhere really isn't much of a threat* to anyone. She didn't even have to kill Cersei to achieve her goals. Burning the city was an excess, and I feel it was clearly filmed and intended by the producers to be depicted an excess, to the extreme.

Furthermore, the amount of destruction and chaos caused would hinder the ability to even determine whether Cersei was killed. Someone is going to have to do a lot of digging, and one burned up body may look much like another. Especially given the nature of DragonFire, which seems to consume flammables and nonflammables alike.

* The threat to Dany's rule is Jon Snow. This too I feel has clearly been conveyed to us.


----------



## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

I do feel like there is a lot of retconning going on right now. People referring to the dream Dany had of the throne room burned and snow falling. People now saying it's ash.

That is ice hanging off of the metal around the pillars.

https://mondrian.mashable.com/2019%...30.jpg?signature=n45FYY8Zq1xFJ6YP235AAwbvLJQ=


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Perhaps she's not mad, but simply evil.
> 
> If you're sufficiently evil, does that make you mad by definition? Perhaps it does.
> 
> ...


No problem with that at all.

Doesn't mean she's insane. She wanted to end this bullsh*t. She's done with battles, done with trickery, done with lies, done with betrayal. She wanted to win decisively. She did.

Freakin' brilliant. And ballsy. She's the queen. Long live the queen.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Long live the queen.


For about another 70 minutes...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> She had already won before she started burning innocent civilians. If she had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned it to the ground, that would have been totally justified and I think everyone would have cheered. But to start destroying the parts of the city where there are no soldiers and no Cersei can only be explained by her becoming the Mad Queen. Basically, she did exactly what her father wanted to do and which caused Jaime to kill him in order to save the city. So if Aerys was the Mad King for simply wanting to burn the city down, doesn't that automatically make Dany the Mad Queen because she actually did it?


He thought drinking wildfyre would make him a dragon. Big difference. Dany was emotional, blinded with rage, furious, sick of it all.

Aerys was a loony tune.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> Beric Dondarrion


He asked if there were any "people" who came back to life. Beric was a cat, I believe.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> He thought drinking wildfyre would make him a dragon. Big difference. Dany was emotional, blinded with rage, furious, sick of it all.
> 
> Aerys was a loony tune.


This. So much this. Said every woman everywhere who's ever been called crazy.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> blinded with rage,


"Blinded with rage" is indeed one possible avenue for making a legal defense of temporary _insanity_, is it not?


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

smbaker said:


> For about another 70 minutes...


The queen is dead. Long live the queen.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I still wonder if there will be a Seven Kingdoms to rule after this. Will the North support Dany? What about those houses loyal to the Lannisters? I wonder if this is the end of The Seven Kingdoms and each be ruled by their own King of Lord?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> True on your second point. On your first, sure it's the most OBVIOUS place, but if you thought that your city would be attacked and that your enemy would know where you'd most likely be, why would you stay there? The President goes up in AF1 or hides in a bunker, he doesn't sit in the Oval Office. We saw this during 9/11. So a smart attacker wouldn't assume that Cersei would be in the most obvious place.


Perhaps someone that's watched it multiple times can answer, or I can go back and watch.

D&D (Dany & Drogon) torched the ships, then the scorpions, then the front gate. Very logical, very not insane, very efficient.

So she's knocked out all that stuff, and Cersei is watching her from the Red Keep. In those views of Cersei watching D&D, they are like 2 inches tall. It struck me that they were very, very far away. Practically as far away as one could be while still being inside the Red Keep.

Then she torches the city, and at some point the Red Keep. We see the building basically fall on the incestual couple, so she obviously took down the Red Keep. Did she go straight to the Red Keep? No. Did she torch stuff on her way to the Red Keep? Did she torch everything but the Red Keep and then did the Red Keep? Was it random?

I too expected her to go right for the Red Keep and wish she had. But taking out a bell tower or armament (what's the name for the building where you keep weapons?) or stable or barracks on the way would be strategic.

The surrender thing is phoney. Dany knows the surrender isn't Cersei. Dany knows Cersei won't stop fighting ever. Bells ringing is meaningless. It would be foolish to stop because a bell is ringing. What if she did? Cersei would be alive. Jaime with her. Perhaps Q and most of her royal guard. Perhaps even The Mountain. The fight for the Iron Throne would have more chapters, more risk. Dany did the right thing.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Dany did the right thing.


How is that the right thing?

If Dany knows the bells don't mean Cersei's surrender, then demand Cersei's surrender. Or if Dany knows Cersei will never surrender, then kill Cersei. That is, fire-bomb Cersei's house, the Red Keep, if you don't know exactly where she is.

Why do untold thousands of civilians, who don't like Cersei anyway, have to die?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Marco said:


> How is that the right thing?
> 
> If Dany knows the bells don't mean Cersei's surrender, then demand Cersei's surrender. Or if Dany knows Cersei will never surrender, then kill Cersei. That is, fire-bomb Cersei's house, the Red Keep, if you don't know exactly where she is.


They demanded her surrender. Twice I believe.

So that doesn't work. No need to try a third time. And then yes, they did fire-bomb the Red Keep. She just added her 37 pieces of flair on the way to the Keep.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mitkraft said:


> I honestly can't remember any other than Jon's uncle but have their been any other "assumed dead" people on GoT who we found later were alive?


Bran and Rickon.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yeah, maybe Stannis is still alive in the forest north of Winterfell and just biding his time while all the other parties to the throne take each other out and then he'll emerge and stake his claim.


And Hodor is still holding that door!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Perhaps someone that's watched it multiple times can answer, or I can go back and watch.
> 
> D&D (Dany & Drogon) torched the ships, then the scorpions, then the front gate. Very logical, very not insane, very efficient.
> 
> ...


Totally disagree. It doesn't matter if Cersei surrendered or not. Cersei is powerless without her army to fight for her. And her army had surrendered. So the battle was won and Dany's forces now had control of the city. Dethroning Cersei after that would be trivial. Maybe Cersei would try to put up a fight as Dany's ground forces tried to enter the Red Keep, but they wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight, and Drogon would quickly end any resistance. And then Dany would actually have a castle and the Iron Throne from which to govern and she would have a city full of residents who are grateful to her for removing Cersei. Now, Dany just has a pile of rubble, no symbolic throne, and a country that hates her.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> No problem with that at all.
> 
> Doesn't mean she's insane. She wanted to end this bullsh*t. She's done with battles, done with trickery, done with lies, done with betrayal. She wanted to win decisively. She did.
> 
> Freakin' brilliant. And ballsy. She's the queen. Long live the queen.


She was so sick of battles she prolonged one that was over? Sounds mad to me.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Anyone who thinks Jamie and/or Cersei survived that collapsing roof is insane.


I may be insane (my wife might agree), but I am a little worried that Jamie & Cersei may have survived, not that I want to see it at all. 
(My theory is based on out of show information, so I will spoiler it)



Spoiler



Typically when a character is killed, the actor/actress do interviews with Entertainment Weekly, and other magazines. This week there are articles with Rory McCann (Hound), Conleth Hill (Varys) , and even Pilou Asbeak (Euron). But, there are no interviews with Lena Headey or Nikolij Coster-Waldau? That doesn't add up to me. Like I said, I hope I am wrong.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

BrettStah said:


> She is paranoid that Jon will be made king, so getting the fear level up to maximum is what she thinks she needs to do.


Just kill Jon then.


DevdogAZ said:


> We don't have any evidence that Dany knew Jaime had been set free.


I imagine she would find out pretty quick


uncdrew said:


> The surrender thing is phoney. Dany knows the surrender isn't Cersei. Dany knows Cersei won't stop fighting ever. Bells ringing is meaningless. It would be foolish to stop because a bell is ringing. What if she did? Cersei would be alive. Jaime with her. Perhaps Q and most of her royal guard. Perhaps even The Mountain. The fight for the Iron Throne would have more chapters, more risk. Dany did the right thing.


LOL.. Hard disagree. Even with The Mountain and Q there's no chance she'd raise an army ever again to face off against Dany.

The only thing I can think of as to why she went mad was because the "innocent civilians" were yelling for the bell to be rung and they were yelling "save us". She realized and accepted she was the the bad guy in their eyes and were just begging for mercy. No Love for her. It's kind of stupid as Varys and Tyrion and everyone kept telling her that would would be seen as a savior for freeing them from Cersei. Tyrion and Varys should've known better.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> She was so sick of battles she prolonged one that was over? Sounds mad to me.


She's stopping the next battle from happening.

-smak-


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Tsiehta said:


> I do feel like there is a lot of retconning going on right now. People referring to the dream Dany had of the throne room burned and snow falling. People now saying it's ash.
> 
> That is ice hanging off of the metal around the pillars.
> 
> https://mondrian.mashable.com/2019%2F02%2F15%2F3e%2Ff9fe57658e9f49319a12627066ecaa4a.1e8df.jpg%2F1200x630.jpg?signature=n45FYY8Zq1xFJ6YP235AAwbvLJQ=


I see no ice in that picture.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

tlc said:


> Bran and Rickon.


I meant from the viewers perspective, not the characters. Obviously there were tons of examples from the characters perspective. Did the viewers think they were dead (seriously, I can't remember)?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Tsiehta said:


> I do feel like there is a lot of retconning going on right now. People referring to the dream Dany had of the throne room burned and snow falling. People now saying it's ash.
> 
> That is ice hanging off of the metal around the pillars.
> 
> https://mondrian.mashable.com/2019%2F02%2F15%2F3e%2Ff9fe57658e9f49319a12627066ecaa4a.1e8df.jpg%2F1200x630.jpg?signature=n45FYY8Zq1xFJ6YP235AAwbvLJQ=





PJO1966 said:


> I see no ice in that picture.


Maybe not ice specifically, but not ash, snow...






The retconning should be that it's 'Jon' snow!


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mitkraft said:


> I meant from the viewers perspective, not the characters. Obviously there were tons of examples from the characters perspective. Did the viewers think they were dead (seriously, I can't remember)?


Honestly, I'm not sure anymore either. Were we in on it from the beginning? I know we found out quicker than the other characters, but maybe not right away.

What about Sandor and The Mountain? Did we see them die?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

We had just watched from the beginning. It was clear to the audience that Theon couldn't find Bran and Rickon, so he burned the two boys who were on hand.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> I may be insane (my wife might agree), but I am a little worried that Jamie & Cersei may have survived, not that I want to see it at all.
> (My theory is based on out of show information, so I will spoiler it)
> 
> 
> ...


Here you go: 'Game of Thrones': Lena Headey reacts to that King's Landing battle ending


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

hefe said:


> The retconning should be that it's 'Jon' snow!


That wouldn't be retconning though. People have said that it represents "(Jon) Snow on the Iron Throne" since it first aired.

That's the thing with visions and prophecies, they can have many different interpretations and some, all, or none of those interpretations might be correct. It is possible that the vision represents both Dany destroying King's Landing and the Red Keep and being surrounded by falling ashes, but those ashes may also be seen as snow and represent that Dany's destruction of King's Landing will lead to Jon becoming the king.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

getbak said:


> That wouldn't be retconning though. People have said that it represents "(Jon) Snow on the Iron Throne" since it first aired.
> 
> That's the thing with visions and prophecies, they can have many different interpretations and some, all, or none of those interpretations might be correct. It is possible that the vision represents both Dany destroying King's Landing and the Red Keep and being surrounded by falling ashes, but those ashes may also be seen as snow and represent that Dany's destruction of King's Landing will lead to Jon becoming the king.


Yeah, maybe it is, maybe it isn't...jokes don't care about pedantry.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> I see no ice in that picture.







at 0:21 mark, those are clearly ice cicles hanging off the metal.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Totally disagree. It doesn't matter if Cersei surrendered or not. Cersei is powerless without her army to fight for her. And her army had surrendered. So the battle was won and Dany's forces now had control of the city.


Just to play devil's advocate, not to argue that Dany thought this, but isn't it entirely reasonable to think that Cersei had some backup plan that involved surrendering but pulling out hidden forces (wildfire? scorpions? something entirely new?) to attack when Dany accepted that surrender?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Tsiehta said:


> at 0:21 mark, those are clearly ice cicles hanging off the metal.


In this video, yes. In the picture you posted earlier. No.

Of course now that King's Landing is all open-air buildings, winter can still come and cover that room in snow and ice.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> I see no ice in that picture.





PJO1966 said:


> In this video, yes. In the picture you posted earlier. No.


It's there in the picture originally posted. Look at the metal grate around the left-most pillar. There are icicles hanging from it.


----------



## Haps (Nov 30, 2001)

mm2margaret said:


> Well, for anyone who is having trouble with these episodes and Dany's somewhat sudden change, I would only suggest that had the Producers had more time to develop the plot points, and characters, it would have probably made more sense.


I don't buy that. Let's say season 8 is 12 episodes. You can't write Dany's slow descent into madness. It has to be a slap in the face for the viewer that upon reflection they remember the signs. You can't telegraph that point anymore than they already did.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Why does it have to be slow? People that have had multiple traumatic life experiences that close together don't sometimes snap? Now, most times they don't have a fire breathing dragon at their disposal, and most times they don't become murderous...But sometimes they do.

-smak-


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

interesting post from last year laying out all of the foreshadowing and predicting Dany's turn.

The Queen of Ashes foreshadowing


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Foreshadowing is not character development. It doesn’t matter how many times they foreshadowed it, what matters is whether the actual moment it happens feels authentic or not. They foreshadowed the death of Rhaegal but it still was one of the most absurd and implausible moments in the entire show.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It would be much easier to tell the surrendering city "Bring me Cersei" than to torch the whole city and hope she didn't have an escape plan that succeeded. People would be falling all over themselves trying to find her and please the new queen.

What always told me Dany was delusional and unfit to rule is that she always painted taking over the 7 kingdoms as the end of tyranny and the start of never-ending peace and prosperity. It's like she was going to live forever or whatever came out of her womb was going to be the perfect benevolent monarch...till the end of time.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The one quibble I'd make is that she's really pushing Jon away from her...he's been trying to stand by her far beyond reason, I'd say, but in the end there's only so much pushing he can take, and he's reached his limit.


I meant romantically pulling away from her. Ever since Jon found out that Daenerys was family, he has been uneasy about having a relationship with her. He still had feelings for her, which is why he didn't immediately pull completely away. But Daenerys could sense him becoming more distant.

I agree, though, that in terms of loyalty, he was still with her up until she started torching King's Landing. So in regard to that, it was Daenerys' actions that pushed him away.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

PJO1966 said:


> We had just watched from the beginning. It was clear to the audience that Theon couldn't find Bran and Rickon, so he burned the two boys who were on hand.


While people might have guessed that, the show left it an open question until Theon gave Dagmer money to give to the farmer, and Dagmer stated that he had killed the farmer and his wife. Right after that, Maester Luwin saw Osha, and then it was officially confirmed that they were still alive.

This happened in the episode right after the one in which the burnt bodies had been revealed, however. So any doubt about their status wasn't there for long.



tlc said:


> And Hodor is still holding that door!


The final scene of next week's episode is going to start with Daenerys taking a seat on the Iron Throne. All of a sudden, a door will come smashing down on her head, killing her instantly. The camera will then pan to a large man holding what remains of the door. He will smile, and say... well, you know.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> I meant romantically pulling away from her. Ever since Jon found out that Daenerys was family, he has been uneasy about having a relationship with her. He still had feelings for her, which is why he didn't immediately pull completely away. But Daenerys could sense him becoming more distant.
> 
> I agree, though, that in terms of loyalty, he was still with her up until she started torching King's Landing. So in regard to that, it was Daenerys' actions that pushed him away.


When Varys and Tyrion were discussing the possibility of Jon and Dany getting married, I believe Varys mentioned that Jon grew up in the North, where an uncle marrying his niece is considered bad/incest. So I gather that Jon's reluctance is because of this. He loves her; but whenever he starts to kiss her, he remembers that this is incest and backs off.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Jon's in one of those I-made-a-lot-of-oaths-that-now-seem-to-conflict situations, like Jaime.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, not to argue that Dany thought this, but isn't it entirely reasonable to think that Cersei had some backup plan that involved surrendering but pulling out hidden forces (wildfire? scorpions? something entirely new?) to attack when Dany accepted that surrender?


So she wasted time burning the town when she could have gone right after Cersei?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> She was so sick of battles she prolonged one that was over? Sounds mad to me.


Yeah, she added 7 minutes to ensure it was over. That's prudent, not insane.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> I may be insane (my wife might agree), but I am a little worried that Jamie & Cersei may have survived, not that I want to see it at all.
> (My theory is based on out of show information, so I will spoiler it)


I watched it again and they really, really, really do seem dead.

Jaime checked all the exits. They were blocked. Then you can see the entire "basement?" collapsing one room at a time behind them.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smak said:


> She's stopping the next battle from happening.
> 
> -smak-


Exactly.

She just saved the entire world from becoming ice zombies. The other, less able rulers (Sansa, Jon and gang) even admitted that Dany saved the world. Yet then an hour and a few brewskis later they are celebrating Jon.

She needed to make a statement. She did.

She won The Last Battle all by herself. Total badass. Queen Dany.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> While people might have guessed that, the show left it an open question until Theon gave Dagmer money to give to the farmer, and Dagmer stated that he had killed the farmer and his wife. Right after that, Maester Luwin saw Osha, and then it was officially confirmed that they were still alive.
> 
> This happened in the episode right after the one in which the burnt bodies had been revealed, however. So any doubt about their status wasn't there for long.
> 
> The final scene of next week's episode is going to start with Daenerys taking a seat on the Iron Throne. All of a sudden, a door will come smashing down on her head, killing her instantly. The camera will then pan to a large man holding what remains of the door. He will smile, and say... well, you know.


There wasn't much guesswork involved. It was established that Theon couldn't find them. Then they showed Theon looking at the two boys who were the same ages of the Stark boys. In the next scene we saw their torched bodies hanging at Winterfell.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Exactly.
> 
> She just saved the entire world from becoming ice zombies. The other, less able rulers (Sansa, Jon and gang) even admitted that Dany saved the world. Yet then an hour and a few brewskis later they are celebrating Jon.
> 
> ...


But is it the last battle? One more episode to decide that.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> But is it the last battle? One more episode to decide that.


Did you see the previews?



Spoiler



The entire episode is simply everyone bending the knee to Dany, tossing goats to Drogon, and a lot of happily ever after stuff with lots of cheering, smiles and parties.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I rewatched episodes S01E01, 02 and 03 last night. Man, everybody was so much younger back then. I miss the Dancing Master.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Did you see the previews?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I never watch the previews, I don't want spoilers.

Edit: of course responding to this, just caused me to read YOUR spoiler, which I didn't want to do. Oh well. I wonder how accurate the spoiler is, or if it's just misdirection.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

TonyD79 said:


> So she wasted time burning the town when she could have gone right after Cersei?


It's a huge city.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> No, I never watch the previews, I don't want spoilers.
> 
> Edit: of course responding to this, just caused me to read YOUR spoiler, which I didn't want to do. Oh well. I wonder how accurate the spoiler is, or if it's just misdirection.


Sorry, all a joke. I did watch the previews. My spoiler is not the previews. I won't say what the previewed showed or didn't show.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, she added 7 minutes to ensure it was over. That's prudent, not insane.


7 minutes that Cersei could have gotten away or triggered something. The enemy was Cersei, not the women and children in the streets. This isn't Fallujah.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> It's a huge city.


That all depends on the cgi. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I rewatched episodes S01E01, 02 and 03 last night. Man, everybody was so much younger back then. I miss the Dancing Master.


Speaking of people we never saw die!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> So she wasted time burning the town when she could have gone right after Cersei?


Dany sacked Kings Landing to show power and dominance once it sank in that the North and other lands would probably never support her claim to the throne. Cercei was just an afterthought at that point. She sent a message that this is what you're going to get if you defy me.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I rewatched episodes S01E01, 02 and 03 last night. Man, everybody was so much younger back then. I miss the Dancing Master.


Yes, the First Sword of Braavos was one of my favorite characters and I held out hope for the longest time that, as we didn't actually see him die, he would pop up again somewhere. Still have fingers crossed that we may see him in the last episode.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Dany sacked Kings Landing to show power and dominance once it sank in that the North and other lands would probably never support her claim to the throne. Cercei was just an afterthought at that point. She sent a message that this is what you're going to get if you defy me.


Or, this is what you're going to get if you surrender...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Well, the direction of the plot is specifically that Dany is not the benevolent leader that we were hoping, setting up further drama, therefore she had to do what she did.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Dany sacked Kings Landing to show power and dominance once it sank in that the North and other lands would probably never support her claim to the throne. Cercei was just an afterthought at that point. She sent a message that this is what you're going to get if you defy me.


Yup, a much bigger plan and strategy is in play here than just killing Cersei. And it mirrors her actions in Essos (which worked).


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> Yup, a much bigger plan and strategy is in play here than just killing Cersei. And it mirrors her actions in Essos (which worked).


But as we've seen many times now, this isn't Essos. This time it won't work, or at least not in the long run. I stand by my thoughts that she dies in the finale. I'm just not entirely set on who I think does it. It feels like it would be Jon but maybe for that reason it won't be.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I just found out we're going out to dinner on Sunday for a friend's birthday. We're going to have to go on a media blackout starting at 6pm. :|


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

PJO1966 said:


> I just found out we're going out to dinner on Sunday for a friend's birthday. We're going to have to go on a media blackout starting at 6pm. :|


 Cancel!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

What kind of idiot schedules their birthday for the night of the GoT finalé?!?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> But as we've seen many times now, this isn't Essos. This time it won't work, or at least not in the long run. I stand by my thoughts that she dies in the finale. I'm just not entirely set on who I think does it. It feels like it would be Jon but maybe for that reason it won't be.


This time it won't work?

Uh, how do we know? Rulers have led by fear for many generations, in both real life and fantasy worlds.

Kings Landing has had F-ed Up leadership for quite some time. They just get a different flavor now. And while it started poorly, it could easily be better then Cersie, Joffrey and gang quite quickly.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. If this holds true, either Sansa or Dany has to die. If it's Dany, Tyrion should also die. An argument can be made that Jon hasn't even played, so he could live or die under any scenario.


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## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I watched it again and they really, really, really do seem dead.
> 
> Jaime checked all the exits. They were blocked. Then you can see the entire "basement?" collapsing one room at a time behind them.


Maybe they are just mostly dead. Or maybe they crawled under the dumpster.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What kind of idiot schedules their birthday for the night of the GoT finalé?!?


Someone who's never seen the show.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> Someone who's never seen the show.


Then Birthday Boy can either start with the finale, or he can wait for you to leave the house at 7:30 Pacific.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Dany sacked Kings Landing to show power and dominance once it sank in that the North and other lands would probably never support her claim to the throne. Cercei was just an afterthought at that point. She sent a message that this is what you're going to get if you defy me.


WHO defied her?!!? Cersei! The people and the army surrendered.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Yup, a much bigger plan and strategy is in play here than just killing Cersei. And it mirrors her actions in Essos (which worked).


No. She freed the people of Essos. She didn't destroy their cities. She killed the people who defied her. Women and children in the streets didn't defy her. Wild killing like that breeds enemies, not loyal subjects.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1128639804344864768


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

uncdrew said:


> This time it won't work?
> Uh, how do we know?


We don't, that's just my opinion on it.



mitkraft said:


> Or maybe they crawled under the dumpster.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

3D said:


> When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. If this holds true, either Sansa or Dany has to die. If it's Dany, Tyrion should also die. An argument can be made that Jon hasn't even played, so he could live or die under any scenario.


I suppose Sansa is playing, but it feels like she's playing a mini-game version in Snow Land, while Dany paid extra to unlock the difficult levels.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mitkraft said:


> Maybe they are just mostly dead. Or maybe they crawled under the dumpster.


We saw the mountain take a few cinder blocks to the back when he protected Q and Cersei. Perhaps he fell out of the keep and rolled down the stairs to where Jaime and Cersei are, and then protected them.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> WHO defied her?!!? Cersei! The people and the army surrendered.


She's sending a message to the rest of Westeros. And the rest of the world. Do not defy her.

If you defy, you will fry. It's on her banner.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

The one problem with her plan is she's not personally strong. The opposite in fact. So she's going to need multiple 24/7 guards all around her at all times. A dragon is not a quick attack instrument.

-smak-


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> We don't, that's just my opinion on it.


Gotcha.

You're most likely correct. Leading by fear isn't a good plan. And it wasn't Dany's first plan. Now it's really her only plan. At least in the short-term.

I'd like to see her return to her original design of breaking the wheel, freeing people. It'll be tough to get there, and would need about 5 more seasons to do it in a way that anyone would believe.

Do friends/allies kill a Queen for 7 minutes of battle and one bad decision? I don't think so.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

smak said:


> The one problem with her plan is she's not personally strong. The opposite in fact. So she's going to need multiple 24/7 guards all around her at all times. A dragon is not a quick attack instrument.
> 
> -smak-


True.

She'll need an entire team of food tasters. They'll have to make about 12 cheeseburgers for her to have enough left after the food testers take their bites.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Do friends/allies kill a Queen for 7 minutes of battle and one bad decision? I don't think so.


They might just strongly suggest she go rule on the other side of the narrow sea. It might even be her idea. _"I broke the wheel. You work it out."_ or "_I broke the wheel. I declare the seven kingdoms independent!"_ and _"Don't make me come back here!"_


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Do friends/allies kill a Queen for 7 minutes of battle and one bad decision? I don't think so.


"One bad decision" to kill so many thousands of innocents?

I do.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> What kind of idiot schedules their birthday for the night of the GoT finalé?!?


Well.....I must be a outlier because I just cancelled my HBO subscription, so I won't be glued to the TV on Sunday. Poor me......I don't think much of the last two episodes, although the cinematography was superb, the writing was not. Not at all. They didn't handle the change for Jamie or Dany well at all in my view, and Dany's transition, from heroine to villainess, which, as it turns out, is a critical aspect of these episodes, and the show, that transition failed.

I'll watch it later at some point, but really, those two too sudden and not fully justified or realized character about-face changes, really ruined it for me.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Might be a spoiler but I'm gonna risk it.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mm2margaret said:


> Well.....I must be a outlier because I just cancelled my HBO subscription, so I won't be glued to the TV on Sunday. Poor me......I don't think much of the last two episodes, although the cinematography was superb, the writing was not. Not at all. They didn't handle the change for Jamie or Dany well at all in my view, and Dany's transition, from heroine to villainess, which, as it turns out, is a critical aspect of these episodes, and the show, that transition failed.
> 
> I'll watch it later at some point, but really, those two too sudden and not fully justified or realized character about-face changes, really ruined it for me.


Wow...that's a bit extreme...you watched all these seasons and liked the show and just could not stomach one more week?


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Anubys said:


> Wow...that's a bit extreme...you watched all these seasons and liked the show and just could not stomach one more week?


I'll just see it a bit later, that's all.....


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Wow...that's a bit extreme...you watched all these seasons and liked the show and just could not stomach one more week?


Isn't that almost the same as people totally disregarding D&D's upcoming Star Wars trilogy, and hoping they don't even get to do it, based on a few episodes, after almost universal praise for the first 70?

-smak-


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

mm2margaret said:


> I'll just see it a bit later, that's all.....


What about Big Little Lies S2, Watchmen, Succession S2, etc? There's more on HBO than GoT.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

PJO1966 said:


> There wasn't much guesswork involved. It was established that Theon couldn't find them. Then they showed Theon looking at the two boys who were the same ages of the Stark boys. In the next scene we saw their torched bodies hanging at Winterfell.


The scene at the farm ended with Dagmer showing Theon a broken walnut shell:






I don't know if he could tell that Hodor had broken it, if he knew that walnuts had been stolen from the Winterfell stores, if he assumed that the farmer's family wouldn't have left those shells lying around like that, or some combination of the three. But in any case, Dagmer thought he had found evidence that the boys had been there.

I'm assuming that off screen they threatened and beat the family some more, perhaps including the children. But when nobody could tell them anything, that's when they decided to burn the farmer's kids.

The scene with the burnt bodies wasn't shown until quite a bit later at the very end of the episode.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mm2margaret said:


> They didn't handle the change for Jamie or Dany well at all in my view


I can understand you feeling that way about Dany, but why Jaime?

Jaime didn't leave Cersei because he stopped loving her. He left because of his oath. Once his oath was fulfilled, he thought he could stay away from her. But when her death seemed imminent, that's when he realized that he couldn't.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

tivotvaddict said:


> It's a huge city.


[monty] it's only a model [/pythons]


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

BitbyBlit said:


> I can understand you feeling that way about Dany, but why Jaime?
> 
> Jaime didn't leave Cersei because he stopped loving her. He left because of his oath. Once his oath was fulfilled, he thought he could stay away from her. But when her death seemed imminent, that's when he realized that he couldn't.


Just too sudden....didn't work for me. And, I'm not the only one who feels that way. I love the series, but not this season, and I've got other things that can take up my time. It's too bad, but I think they whiffed on this.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> [monty] it's only a model [/pythons]


I think it was originally a Center for Kids that Can't Read Good.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Marco said:


> "One bad decision" to kill so many thousands of innocents?
> 
> I do.


It's like all those brave people close to Hitler that took him out as he was killing millions. Oh wait...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> Just too sudden....didn't work for me. And, I'm not the only one who feels that way. I love the series, but not this season, and I've got other things that can take up my time. It's too bad, but I think they whiffed on this.


I think it's just you.

I mean only 400,000 people signed this petition to remake the entire last season of GOT. 

Sign the Petition


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I think it's just you.
> 
> I mean only 400,000 people signed this petition to remake the entire last season of GOT.
> 
> Sign the Petition


Where were these people when Lost ended?


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

realityboy said:


> Where were these people when Lost ended?


Or the last episode of the Sopranos! That would've been easy to reshoot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Here's an interesting analysis of what makes GoT great, how it's faltered this season...and why.

War Crimes on Westeros and Daenerys' Missing Character Arc


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Here's an interesting analysis of what makes GoT great, how it's faltered this season...and why.
> 
> War Crimes on Westeros and Daenerys' Missing Character Arc


I agree with a lot of that. Certainly all the bullet points.

And yes, I think many of the character arcs happened too fast. As he says, we had seeds throughout the years and then got a full-on banana tree in the last episode. They skipped a lot of the growth. In Dany, Varys, Jaime, etc.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

uncdrew said:


> I think it's just you.
> 
> I mean only 400,000 people signed this petition to remake the entire last season of GOT.
> 
> Sign the Petition


Yup, just me and oh, those *400,000* others........note that the petition specifically calls out the writers....."....*Game of Thrones' Petition for 'Competent Writers' Grabs Over 400,000 Signees*...."

EDIT: Oops....I think it's *more like 500,000 *others now.....or very close.....


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

I'm on record about Dany's character "progressing" too quickly. But I really don't get why people were so surprised/disappointed by Jaime's return to form? I guess maybe it comes down to who bought into the "redemption" angle, and actually thought he was 100% reformed good guy at the end? He's still the same complicated, flawed human that he always was, and his sister has always been his downfall. 

Plus, this is still GoT, in case you've forgotten; the very definition of grimdark in courtly intrigue shows. I honestly would have been more disappointed if he'd stayed in Winterfell and had a "happy ending" with Brienne; it just wouldn't have fit the character, or the show, at all. 

Of course, I suppose someone could say the same about those of us who felt that way about Dany? That we maybe bought in a little too much to her "destiny" and her plucky-young-feminist-heroine schtick?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I didn't think Jaime was a totally reformed good guy. I just don't think his end reflected his journey.

Dany's turn was perfectly conceived (and foreshadowed), but poorly executed.

That article I linked to above maybe nails why this is happening. He theorized that Martin is strong on character and D&D are strong on plot. For a while, they complemented each other perfectly, but when D&D passed Martin and came to be more or less on their own, they started sacrificing character for the sake of plot.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Do we know for a fact that all white walkers are done? The last Craster baby boy was not at the Winterfell battle, I don't think. We've never seen White Walker women but maybe don't kind of nursery care group exists. And maybe, if they remained beyond the wall they would not have been blown up when Arya knifed the NK.

I think the series will end with some sort of foreshadowing that the WW threat will return.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> Do we know for a fact that all white walkers are done? The last Craster baby boy was not at the Winterfell battle, I don't think. We've never seen White Walker women but maybe don't kind of nursery care group exists. And maybe, if they remained beyond the wall they would not have been blown up when Arya knifed the NK.
> 
> I think the series will end with some sort of foreshadowing that the WW threat will return.


Don't all the WW explode when the NK dies? That group in Godswood certainly did. I'm not sure you get saved/exploded due to proximity.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I didn't think Jaime was a totally reformed good guy. I just don't think his end reflected his journey.
> 
> Dany's turn was perfectly conceived (and foreshadowed), but poorly executed.
> 
> That article I linked to above maybe nails why this is happening. He theorized that Martin is strong on character and D&D are strong on plot. For a while, they complemented each other perfectly, but when D&D passed Martin and came to be more or less on their own, they started sacrificing character for the sake of plot.


I was about to post that your description of the article is strikingly similar to a twitter thread I shared, but it turns out the article itself references the series of tweets. Covers some of the same ground but still an interesting read if you're interested.


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

This episode made the dragon death on the previous episode look even stupider. Somehow, those scorpions were deadly accurate against Rhaegal, hitting him multiple time, and then couldn't hit Drogon. (Of course, this was beat to death in the previous thread.) And then in this episode, Drogon is easily able to take out every single scorpion without help. Heck, Daenerys didn't even need a ground force.

Rhaegal's death was just a cheap trick on the part of the writers to make us think Daenerys might not win this battle.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

markb said:


> This episode made the dragon death on the previous episode look even stupider. Somehow, those scorpions were deadly accurate against Rhaegal, hitting him multiple time, and then couldn't hit Drogon. (Of course, this was beat to death in the previous thread.) And then in this episode, Drogon is easily able to take out every single scorpion without help. Heck, Daenerys didn't even need a ground force.
> 
> Rhaegal's death was just a cheap trick on the part of the writers to make us think Daenerys might not win this battle.


That didn't bother me, because when Rhaegal was hit, no one was expecting the attack (I think the scorpions on the ships wasn't a known thing). A seemingly superior weapon (a dragon) can be destroyed in an ambush.

This time, they knew the ships were there, armed with scorpions. And knew that there were scorpions on the walls of the city.

Once that information is known, then an airborne dragon can swoop up and down, left and right, from any direction.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> That didn't bother me, because when Rhaegal was hit, no one was expecting the attack (I think the scorpions on the ships wasn't a known thing). A seemingly superior weapon (a dragon) can be destroyed in an ambush.
> 
> This time, they knew the ships were there, armed with scorpions. And knew that there were scorpions on the walls of the city.
> 
> Once that information is known, then an airborne dragon can swoop up and down, left and right, from any direction.


Also, Rhaegal was badly hurt, and thus not as nimble in the air as Drogon. Though IMHO they didn't do as good a job of communicating that visually as they could have.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> That didn't bother me, because when Rhaegal was hit, no one was expecting the attack (I think the scorpions on the ships wasn't a known thing). A seemingly superior weapon (a dragon) can be destroyed in an ambush.
> 
> This time, they knew the ships were there, armed with scorpions. And knew that there were scorpions on the walls of the city.
> 
> Once that information is known, then an airborne dragon can swoop up and down, left and right, from any direction.


^This. The scorpions clearly could kill dragons, but a dragon is far more mobile.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> I'm on record about Dany's character "progressing" too quickly. But I really don't get why people were so surprised/disappointed by Jaime's return to form? I guess maybe it comes down to who bought into the "redemption" angle, and actually thought he was 100% reformed good guy at the end? He's still the same complicated, flawed human that he always was, and his sister has always been his downfall.
> 
> Plus, this is still GoT, in case you've forgotten; the very definition of grimdark in courtly intrigue shows. I honestly would have been more disappointed if he'd stayed in Winterfell and had a "happy ending" with Brienne; it just wouldn't have fit the character, or the show, at all.


I don't necessarily have a problem with Jaime deciding to be noble and go fight at Winterfell and then act on his long-simmering feelings for Brienne. I also don't have a problem with Jaime ultimately relapsing and returning to his addiction. Where I have the problem is that it all happened within the space of a single episode. If D&D hadn't (stupidly) decided they could finish the series in 13 episodes instead of 20 (or more), they would have had more time to build this character development and have both ends of it make sense. But without a few episodes to let that story play out, it was whiplash without any justification.


markb said:


> This episode made the dragon death on the previous episode look even stupider. Somehow, those scorpions were deadly accurate against Rhaegal, hitting him multiple time, and then couldn't hit Drogon. (Of course, this was beat to death in the previous thread.) And then in this episode, Drogon is easily able to take out every single scorpion without help. Heck, Daenerys didn't even need a ground force.
> 
> Rhaegal's death was just a cheap trick on the part of the writers to make us think Daenerys might not win this battle.


I don't have a problem with Rhaegal being hit. Dany was complacent and wasn't paying attention and Rhaegal was a casualty of the ambush. But where this episode showed the flaw in the previous episode is when Dany started attacking the Iron Fleet and Euron had to order his boat to turn around so he could use the Scorpion against Dany when she wasn't immediately in front of the boat. If that was the case, that the Scorpion couldn't turn 360 degrees on its mount and shoot at all angles, then why didn't Dany simply fly behind the Iron Fleet in the previous episode and take them all out from behind?


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

But after Rhaegal was hit, Drogon didn't do anything about it. I'm going to stand by my position that this was a cheap trick to make us think Daenerys didn't have as good a position as she had.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markb said:


> But after Rhaegal was hit, Drogon didn't do anything about it. I'm going to stand by my position that this was a cheap trick to make us think Daenerys didn't have as good a position as she had.


It was a cheap trick to force Dany into losing more so she'd go "mad queen" faster.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

allan said:


> ^This. The scorpions clearly could kill dragons, but a dragon is far more mobile.


Yeah, it's like if you had some super elite Navy Seal - if he's ambushed without even knowing he's about to get shot, his skills are wasted. Put him in a situation where he knows there are enemy soldi


markb said:


> But after Rhaegal was hit, Drogon didn't do anything about it. I'm going to stand by my position that this was a cheap trick to make us think Daenerys didn't have as good a position as she had.


Drogon and Dany weren't really sure what was happening, exactly, and didn't know how much danger they were in - a quick retreat to regroup makes a lot of sense.

I probably would've returned later the same day though, maybe after dark, when it would be much harder for the ships to see and hit Drogon.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Once Rhaegal got hit the first time, all the other shots are fine. It couldn't dodge. Drogon with Dany on board was able to dodge a few, and that's all that was needed.

Which leads me to a question. Does having a rider on the dragon actually help do anything? Either maneuvering or attacking?

-smak-


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

smak said:


> Does having a rider on the dragon actually help do anything? Either maneuvering or attacking?


My assumption is that Dany is giving Drogon cues via her hands and/or legs for direction changes, and verbal commands for blasting out the fire (Dracarus?).


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> My assumption is that Dany is giving Drogon cues via her hands and/or legs for direction changes, and verbal commands for blasting out the fire (Dracarus?).


But Riderless Dragons also maneuver and blast out fire...

-smak-


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

smak said:


> But Riderless Dragons also maneuver and blast out fire...


Oh yeah. But I assume Dany is able to command him when she's riding him. Otherwise, he may make other choices. For example, I think she wanted to firebomb the city, and that's why Drogon attacked the city.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Much as I dislike their writing these few episodes, the more I think about it, I can’t entirely get on the D&D hate train. I’m disappointed in them recently, and I still think episode 4 was truly terrible; but they did an outstanding job making the show incredible until season 7 or so. Most great shows don’t last 6 seasons even. No matter what happens next, I appreciate what they’ve accomplished.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

TAsunder said:


> Much as I dislike their writing these few episodes, the more I think about it, I can't entirely get on the D&D hate train. I'm disappointed in them recently, and I still think episode 4 was truly terrible; but they did an outstanding job making the show incredible until season 7 or so. Most great shows don't last 6 seasons even. No matter what happens next, I appreciate what they've accomplished.


There's no hate train going on. It's just that these sudden character changes just didn't work for some of us. That's hardly hate....and I for one, also praised them lavishly in previous posts....it was a fantastic series, but as this thread is about this episode, there's a lot of discussion and some dissatisfaction with aspects of this episode and the character development therein....


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Much as I dislike their writing these few episodes, the more I think about it, I can't entirely get on the D&D hate train. I'm disappointed in them recently, and I still think episode 4 was truly terrible; but they did an outstanding job making the show incredible until season 7 or so. Most great shows don't last 6 seasons even. No matter what happens next, I appreciate what they've accomplished.


I think they made a mistake in how they wanted to end it, and it's showed up with some problems this season, but they've done a great job overall, and it was actually really hard to move from a show mostly based on books, to then mostly based on new material. And to make that relatively seamless.

Hopefully this last show is exactly how they've wanted to end it for years, because that seems like it would be a little immune to the problems they've had in this rushed season.

-smak-


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't necessarily have a problem with Jaime deciding to be noble and go fight at Winterfell and then act on his long-simmering feelings for Brienne. I also don't have a problem with Jaime ultimately relapsing and returning to his addiction. Where I have the problem is that it all happened within the space of a single episode. If D&D hadn't (stupidly) decided they could finish the series in 13 episodes instead of 20 (or more), they would have had more time to build this character development and have both ends of it make sense. But without a few episodes to let that story play out, it was whiplash without any justification.


Interesting. I guess this is why I didn't feel the same whiplash that others felt with Jaime's character. I never saw Jaime as having joined the "good guys" and then turned away from them. Had Cersei kept her word, I think Jaime would have gone up with the Lannister forces, and then returned back to Cersei with them. Going north was disobeying the orders of his queen, but not rejecting his lover. He fought against the Night King and his army not because he was on Jon and Daenerys' side, but because he wanted to keep his word. He started a relationship with Brienne not because he had moved on from Cersei, but because he thought going back would have been a death sentence (from all sides).

So I didn't see his return as relapsing so much as realizing that his love for Cersei transcended his fear of what could happen to him.



DevdogAZ said:


> I don't have a problem with Rhaegal being hit. Dany was complacent and wasn't paying attention and Rhaegal was a casualty of the ambush. But where this episode showed the flaw in the previous episode is when Dany started attacking the Iron Fleet and Euron had to order his boat to turn around so he could use the Scorpion against Dany when she wasn't immediately in front of the boat. If that was the case, that the Scorpion couldn't turn 360 degrees on its mount and shoot at all angles, then why didn't Dany simply fly behind the Iron Fleet in the previous episode and take them all out from behind?


She had just lost one of her children, and wasn't thinking clearly. Plus, while we had the benefit of seeing Euron's fleet from a zoomed in camera while in the comfort of our couches, Daenerys only had a quick rage and arrow-filled flyby. Before attacking King's Landing, however, she had a lot more time to think tactically.

That being said, I think the scene would have been much more powerful had the scorpion not been used or even shown in the Loot Train attack or the Season 8 opening credits. Then not only would Daenerys' surprise have made even more sense, but the audience would have been more caught off guard as well, not having seen the scorpion since Qyburn showed Cersei his prototype.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> There's no hate train going on. It's just that these sudden character changes just didn't work for some of us. That's hardly hate....and I for one, also praised them lavishly in previous posts....it was a fantastic series, but as this thread is about this episode, there's a lot of discussion and some dissatisfaction with aspects of this episode and the character development therein....


I'm referencing the fan base and internet in general. We've been pretty civil here compared to some places. The amount of hateful things towards D&D this season is intense. I was definitely on the hate train after they said that Dany "kind of forgot about the iron fleet" to explain the last episode. But I'm better now.


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> Yup, just me and oh, those *400,000* others........note that the petition specifically calls out the writers....."....*Game of Thrones' Petition for 'Competent Writers' Grabs Over 400,000 Signees*...."
> 
> EDIT: Oops....I think it's *more like 500,000 *others now.....or very close.....


Over 800,000 now; next goal is for 1,000,000.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

What a bunch of idiots. I only hope that, like everything else online, the vast majority of those "people" are fake.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't get it. The author gave them the plot outline. I assume he also gave them any major points. Dany was going to go mad. Maybe they rushed how she got there, but she was going to get there. Jaime was going to go back to Cersei. 

Did they not kill some people as a fan service (e.g. Tormund or even Brienne)? probably. But so what?

You can say they should've had more episodes to make those character developments mature and form instead of quick-jumping to them. But to say that this is a huge departure from what the end "should" be is silly.

Had the Ned beheading happened post books, people would be screaming the same thing. Sensationalism for the sake of it, they would have cried. Martin would've never done that, they would've moaned. 

As soon as they saw something they didn't like in season 8, you just knew they would scream blood murder.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

markb said:


> This episode made the dragon death on the previous episode look even stupider. Somehow, those scorpions were deadly accurate against Rhaegal, hitting him multiple time, and then couldn't hit Drogon. (Of course, this was beat to death in the previous thread.) And then in this episode, Drogon is easily able to take out every single scorpion without help. Heck, Daenerys didn't even need a ground force.
> 
> Rhaegal's death was just a cheap trick on the part of the writers to make us think Daenerys might not win this battle.


... and that line where Jon says:

"I'm not riding a dragon down to King's Landing because he needs to heal."

Uh, it's a freaking dragon. Having you on its back doesn't change its healing one iota. The reason you're not riding the dragon is because they're going to kill it with an arrow launched from a moving ship that somehow ambushes a flying dragon.

Ugh.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Anubys said:


> I don't get it. The author gave them the plot outline. I assume he also gave them any major points. Dany was going to go mad. Maybe they rushed how she got there, but she was going to get there. Jaime was going to go back to Cersei.
> 
> Did they not kill some people as a fan service (e.g. Tormund or even Brienne)? probably. But so what?
> 
> ...


Who is "they"? So, if someone engages in legitimate debate and criticism, and says something like "I just don't believe in that", you call that screaming bloody murder?


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

getbak said:


> What a bunch of idiots. I only hope that, like everything else online, the vast majority of those "people" are fake.


Does that include you???


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I don't get it. The author gave them the plot outline. I assume he also gave them any major points. Dany was going to go mad. Maybe they rushed how she got there, but she was going to get there. Jaime was going to go back to Cersei.
> 
> Did they not kill some people as a fan service (e.g. Tormund or even Brienne)? probably. But so what?
> 
> ...


I think the big problem isn't necessarily what they did, it's how they got there. Everything seems more plot-driven now, rather than character-driven.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> My assumption is that Dany is giving Drogon cues via her hands and/or legs for direction changes, and verbal commands for blasting out the fire (Dracarus?).


I was thinking about that, as my wife is a horse trainer and my kids ride.

To get a horse to change directions you have to pull the reins pretty hard. To get a horse to go faster you squeeze your legs -- also pretty hard. Sometimes my kids aren't strong enough to get the horse to move.

So we have dragons with their notoriously tough scales. To be that tough and also sensitive to touch commands? It's truly a magical beast.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the big problem isn't necessarily what they did, it's how they got there. Everything seems more plot-driven now, rather than character-driven.


Look, having a character go from "good" to "bad/crazy" generally takes some time, and it's very hard to do. But not impossible. Breaking Bad took what, two seasons to do that? So far, that show is the only one I can think of that really managed it, and made it believable. Star Wars tried to do it, and didn't really manage it (not in my view), and that just underscores how difficult a transition that is to make. Had they taken more time, maybe they could have pulled it off, but maybe not....


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> Oh yeah. But I assume Dany is able to command him when she's riding him. Otherwise, he may make other choices. For example, I think she wanted to firebomb the city, and that's why Drogon attacked the city.


I think Drogon enjoyed that as well.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mm2margaret said:


> Who is "they"? So, if someone engages in legitimate debate and criticism, and says something like "I just don't believe in that", you call that screaming bloody murder?


the people who want the 8th season re-done. If they expect a different outcome, they are stupid. If they want the same outcome done a different way, they are silly.

I actually wrote and then deleted from my post a sentence saying at least you stood by your conviction and said you would stop watching the show. I deleted it because I didn't want to steer the discussion towards "if you don't like it, stop watching"; which wasn't my point.

My point is that this is what the author wanted. How the author wanted it to end. Maybe it was rushed and became more "fit the character to the plot because we don't have time to develop him/her any further". But to say "that's not what the author wanted" or "I want something else" is not a valid argument.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Anubys said:


> I don't get it. The author gave them the plot outline. I assume he also gave them any major points. Dany was going to go mad. Maybe they rushed how she got there, but she was going to get there. Jaime was going to go back to Cersei.
> 
> Did they not kill some people as a fan service (e.g. Tormund or even Brienne)? probably. But so what?
> 
> ...


The problem it's the show writers excluded a ton of things from the books. There's more characters fighting over the throne, perhaps one of those kills Cersei, or they aid in the fight against the Night King. (Being vague to avoid spoilers) The books introduced an item that supposedly a character can steal a dragon and bind it to themselves so it's theirs, the books talk about a magical horn, that if blown will destroy the wall.

Book fans suspect the show writers just wanted to be done, removed the characters that prolonged the end, which meant they had to change some of characters motives, and remove plots that take place in Dorn and other places. Like Tyrion goes straight up retarded in the show when the show writers changed his characters path. Varys's motives are different as well. I suspect GRRM's plan for all the major characters are different. D&D just wanted to take shortcuts, and make that Star Wars money for the House of Mouse.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> To get a horse to change directions you have to pull the reins pretty hard. To get a horse to go faster you squeeze your legs -- also pretty hard. Sometimes my kids aren't strong enough to get the horse to move.


That's western style riding. English is all about the body. You change directions (and more) using your legs.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Book fans suspect the show writers just wanted to be done, removed the characters that prolonged the end, which meant they had to change some of characters motives, and remove plots that take place in Dorn and other places. Like Tyrion goes straight up retarded in the show when the show writers changed his characters path. Varys's motives are different as well. I suspect GRRM's plan for all the major characters are different. D&D just wanted to take shortcuts, and make that Star Wars money for the House of Mouse.


I don't think it's just book fans. D&D absolutely cut corners every which way, which included turning down 10 episode seasons that HBO offered because they were over it. One only needs to look at Jaime, Tyrion and Varys as the tip of the iceberg in terms of shoehorning where D&D had to make it go in not enough time.

Even if they just took the extra 2 hours this season, they could've made Dany's turn a little more believable with a few more scenes. Instead, they want that first bit of Star Wars money.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> the people who want the 8th season re-done. If they expect a different outcome, they are stupid. If they want the same outcome done a different way, they are silly.


I'd love the 8th season re-done, just to have more GOT to watch. What does that make me?


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I'd love the 8th season re-done, just to have more GOT to watch. What does that make me?


A masochist.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I'd rather wait for the books to be done, then just have HBO animate where the writers abandoned the source material and redo some if s5 and on.. Redoing it would probably cost to much now. The locations are probably dismantled or allocated for the other GoT shows. Most of the actors probably want to move on and do other things. Also HBO would have to admit they fooked up their biggest franchise to date. There's no good in redoing it. I'd rather have more of the books added to the show anyways, I think animated will be the way it happens.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I'd rather wait for the books to be done, then just have HBO animate where the writers abandoned the source material and redo some if s5 and on.. Redoing it would probably cost to much now.


NO ONE is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 again.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Marco said:


> NO ONE is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 again.


There are petitions saying HBO should cancel the finale and reshoot s8. /shrug


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> Who is "they"? So, if someone engages in legitimate debate and criticism, and says something like "I just don't believe in that", you call that screaming bloody murder?


You're better off not having a dissenting opinion. If I disagree with somebody I don't call them an idiot or say they're "screaming bloody murder". I just disagree with them. Must be the way I was raised and I apologise for that.


----------



## type_g (Sep 9, 2002)

robojerk said:


> There are petitions saying HBO should cancel the finale and reshoot s8. /shrug


They already spent millions per episode. So no way they would reshoot and spend millions more to appease the fans. Everyone still gonna watch whether its good or not cause they have the fan base already and no one is gonna bail. Financially HBO would never redo a season let alone an episode that they already spent millions per episode. Fans don't think logically they think with there heart. Money is the only thing that matters to the higher ups not fans. Petitions do nothing to networks.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Marco said:


> NO ONE is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 again.


EXACTLY. They are just using the petition process as a tool to express publicly their dissatisfaction with what they've seen. Are they wrong? No. Are they right? No. It's their opinion and they are entitled to it.



Anubys said:


> the people who want the 8th season re-done. If they expect a different outcome, they are stupid. If they want the same outcome done a different way, they are silly.


Anubys for President in 2020!! Make 'Merica great again!!

I don't want Season 8 done again. That's not going to happen. I am dissatisfied with how they've finished this show but it is what it is. I can understand why people love it and understand why people hate it but the caustic attitude of those that disagree is more distasteful than what Benioff and Weiss have done by far.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> My point is that this is what the author wanted. How the author wanted it to end.


Do we know this for certain?


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

He must or how can he be so positive that everybody who doesn't like the way it's been portrayed are stupid and silly?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Interesting. I guess this is why I didn't feel the same whiplash that others felt with Jaime's character. I never saw Jaime as having joined the "good guys" and then turned away from them. Had Cersei kept her word, I think Jaime would have gone up with the Lannister forces, and then returned back to Cersei with them. Going north was disobeying the orders of his queen, but not rejecting his lover. He fought against the Night King and his army not because he was on Jon and Daenerys' side, but because he wanted to keep his word. He started a relationship with Brienne not because he had moved on from Cersei, but because he thought going back would have been a death sentence (from all sides).
> 
> So I didn't see his return as relapsing so much as realizing that his love for Cersei transcended his fear of what could happen to him.


And the fact that we each watched the episodes and interpreted Jaime's motivations differently is proof that the show did a poor job articulating that piece of character development, leaving the fans to guess at exactly what was happening.

For several seasons, we had been seeing Jaime develop and begin to realize what a psychopath Cersei is. Finally, in S07E07, he reached his breaking point and he defied her by going north to help in the battle, even if Cersei wasn't sending any troops with him. After he arrived at Winterfell and the NK was defeated, he consummated a relationship that had been developing over many seasons, and since we know Jaime had never been with any other woman besides Cersei, it was a very big deal that he decided to sleep with Brienne. And then when the armies were leaving to go south, Jaime indicated that he was going to stay at Winterfell with Brienne. So all of that seemed like the logical results of the many seasons of character development for Jaime. And then just a few minutes later, in the same episode, they throw all that out the window and have Jaime bail on Brienne to go back to Cersei. And to top it off, they didn't even properly explain why he was going, so much of the fan base thought he might be going to kill Cersei, while many others thought he might be going to try and save her from Dany's inevitable win. Again, I'm totally fine with the actual plot points. I'm just dissatisfied with the character development that led to those plot points.


Anubys said:


> I don't get it. The author gave them the plot outline. I assume he also gave them any major points. Dany was going to go mad. Maybe they rushed how she got there, but she was going to get there. Jaime was going to go back to Cersei.


I totally agree with this. I'm fairly certain that the major plot points were given by GRRM and that if/when the books finally come out, Jaime will go back to Cersei and Dany will go mad and destroy the city. But the big difference is that GRRM will lay the tracks so that when those things happen in the books, the reader will feel like those plot points were earned.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Personally I'm reserving judgement until after the final episode airs. This season hasn't been perfect, but I've still enjoyed it.

From what I've read, this season had the same number of hours as the ten episode season would have had. They made a few of the episodes longer to save on expenses. Cast and crew are paid by the episode, not by the number of hours required to shoot.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Personally I'm reserving judgement until after the final episode airs. This season hasn't been perfect, but I've still enjoyed it.
> 
> From what I've read, *this season had the same number of hours as the ten episode season would have had*.


That's definitely not true. The first two episodes were both around 60 minutes. The last four were around 80 minutes. So that works out to 7 hours and 20 minutes. Not even close to the typical 9-10 hours of a full season.


PJO1966 said:


> They made a few of the episodes longer to save on expenses. Cast and crew are paid by the episode, not by the number of hours required to shoot.


While most of the big-name actors are paid by the episode due to contracts, I doubt that's true for the crew and non-contract actors. I'm pretty sure they would be paid either by the hour or by the day. Can you imagine how the crew would have rebelled if they had been paid the exact same amount for 55 nights of shooting on S08E03 as 10-15 days of shooting on a normal episode?


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

[QUOTE="TampaThunder, post: 11784242, member: 46309"

"..... the caustic attitude of those that disagree is more distasteful than what Benioff and Weiss have done by far.[/QUOTE]

So, if someone disagrees and does so in this forum where people are encouraged to discuss and debate about tv shows, that's "caustic" and "distasteful"???? I would say that opinion is more caustic and distasteful than anything anyone else has expressed on this forum or any other....pro or con as it relates to the episode or the series itself.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's definitely not true. The first two episodes were both around 60 minutes. The last four were around 80 minutes. So that works out to 7 hours and 20 minutes. Not even close to the typical 9-10 hours of a full season.
> 
> While most of the big-name actors are paid by the episode due to contracts, I doubt that's true for the crew and non-contract actors. I'm pretty sure they would be paid either by the hour or by the day. Can you imagine how the crew would have rebelled if they had been paid the exact same amount for 55 nights of shooting on S08E03 as 10-15 days of shooting on a normal episode?


Not to mention that GoT is the highest rated show on HBO ever. They are rolling in cash. They could have easily afforded 3-4 more episodes. From what I've read, HBO wasn't the one wanting less episodes, it was D&D for some awful reason.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

DevdogAZ said:


> A
> 
> I totally agree with this. I'm fairly certain that the major plot points were given by GRRM and that if/when the books finally come out, Jaime will go back to Cersei and Dany will go mad and destroy the city. But the big difference is that GRRM will lay the tracks so that when those things happen in the books, the reader will feel like those plot points were earned.


The discussion is NOT about whether Dany will go mad, but HOW and in what way and how it was developed that Dany goes "mad". It is a distortion to say that somehow those of us who had trouble with the episode are disagreeing with the major plot points. I'm not and I think most aren't. It's all about how it was done.


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## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

robojerk said:


> There are petitions saying HBO should cancel the finale and reshoot s8. /shrug


I'm FULLY AWARE there are petitions, signed by hundreds of thousands of fans of the show.

I'll say it again:
No one (who is in a position to do so) is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 of Game of Thrones over.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Marco said:


> I'll say it again:
> No one (who is in a position to do so) is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 of Game of Thrones over.


I whole heatedly agree with that.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Marco said:


> I'm FULLY AWARE there are petitions, signed by hundreds of thousands of fans of the show.
> 
> I'll say it again:
> No one (who is in a position to do so) is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 of Game of Thrones over.


This is true. There's not going to be a re-do anytime soon. But the petition does do is express dissatisfaction with the episode, and I'm sure the producers have heard that message, and that's about all it will accomplish.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

They probably haven't heard it since they said they would be going on vacation with their wives and completely unplugging.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Marco said:


> NO ONE is seriously contemplating shooting season 8 again.


I think we all know that.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

PJO1966 said:


> They probably haven't heard it since they said they would be going on vacation with their wives and completely unplugging.


With all due respect, I think you're wrong. I think they've heard it, and they deserve all the credit in the world for creating a great series, even though this episode will probably always be controversial.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> The discussion is NOT about whether Dany will go mad, but HOW and in what way and how it was developed that Dany goes "mad". It is a distortion to say that somehow those of us who had trouble with the episode are disagreeing with the major plot points. I'm not and I think most aren't. It's all about how it was done.


And I completely agree with you. I wanted to see more character development leading up to that particular plot point.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Let’s get back to discussing how awesome Dany is.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> From what I've read, HBO wasn't the one wanting less episodes, it was D&D for some awful reason.


They're anxious to get on with the work of ruining the Star Wars franchise. Oh, wait. It may be too late already.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> So, if someone disagrees and does so in this forum where people are encouraged to discuss and debate about tv shows, that's "caustic" and "distasteful"???? I would say that opinion is more caustic and distasteful than anything anyone else has expressed on this forum or any other....pro or con as it relates to the episode or the series itself.


You totally misread my post(s) @mm2margaret. I felt that the reactions to your post were caustic and distasteful. And I'll add disparaging, discourteous, and disrespectful. I appreciated your point of view, and while I will still watch the final episode as soon as it airs, I totally understand, and somewhat agree, with your points. What I don't like is that if you have a dissenting opinion to some in this thread you're "silly", "stupid", etc. I just hope you don't stop posting your thoughts because you have to spend 7 or 8 further posts defending yourself. It's not right and I appreciate the time you take to express yourself whether I agree with you or not.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Then I owe you an apology for that misinterpretation. Thanks for your thoughts.

Game of Thrones has been a wonderful adventure, brilliantly realized, and I'm sure it will be recognized as one of the greatest Television shows ever. That's how I really feel about it.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

The predetermined 73 episode hard stop was not a good idea. Having said that, even if they had opted for a few more episodes, we'd be in exactly the same place character and plot-wise going into this final episode. The main characters all had to be moved into to their current mindset and temperment before the final episode. Maybe it happened quicker than we'd ideally want but I don't have a major problem with it.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Here's and update posted today from the guy who started the petition on change.org:



> MAY 17, 2019 -
> 
> As this petition approaches a million signatures, I figured I should give a real update and explanation.
> 
> ...


Let the pillorying begin!!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Let's get back to discussing how awesome Dany is.


I keep hearing/reading stories about parents supposedly regretting naming ther daughters Khaleesi but there's got to be more than a couple of Daenerys-es out there.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> Here's and update posted today from the guy who started the petition on change.org:


I feel pretty lucky that a fictional tv show doesn't anger, frustrate, emotionally upset and disappoint me as much as it does other folks.

I reserve my anger, frustration, emotions and disappointment for my sports teams.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I keep hearing/reading stories about parents supposedly regretting naming ther daughters Khaleesi but there's got to be more than a couple of Daenerys-es out there.


Hopefully they used "Arya" as a middle name.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I thought this was interesting. I know everyone talks about how HBO wanted more and D&D said no but here's GRRM himself saying it.

GRRM Wanted More Seasons


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So will there be prequels and spin-offs and such?

I’ve seen a few posts but curious if we know for sure.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> So will there be prequels and spin-offs and such?
> 
> I've seen a few posts but curious if we know for sure.


There are definitely prequels in the works. I think HBO has optioned 5 of them and at least one is currently in production. As for spinoffs, I don't know if we'll see anything that takes place in the timeframe of GoT anytime soon.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I think just prequels. I haven't heard anything about spin-offs with existing characters.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

George RR Martin said that there were 3 series in development. HBO has ordered a pilot for the one that’s furthest along.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

mm2margaret said:


> Yup, just me and oh, those *400,000* others........note that the petition specifically calls out the writers....."....*Game of Thrones' Petition for 'Competent Writers' Grabs Over 400,000 Signees*...."
> 
> EDIT: Oops....I think it's *more like 500,000 *others now.....or very close.....





LlamaLarry said:


> Over 800,000 now; next goal is for 1,000,000.


That's gotta hurt. Imagine that many people went to the trouble to complain about a job _you_ did! Luckily, hardly anyone is aware of what I do.

Regarding Rhaegal's demise. It just seemed like impossible shooting to me. They seemed _much_ to far away, shooting a moving target from the deck of a moving boat. What did they practice shooting at in the air? I imagine that an arrow's arc makes it harder to shoot long distances at elevated angles.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought this was interesting. I know everyone talks about how HBO wanted more and D&D said no but here's GRRM himself saying it.
> 
> GRRM Wanted More Seasons


He can't be trusted. He just wanted more time to finish the books since he agreed not to release any more before the show ends.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

realityboy said:


> George RR Martin said that there were 3 series in development. HBO has ordered a pilot for the one that's furthest along.


I think I read it's now starting filming. The one Naomi Watts will be staring in.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I keep hearing/reading stories about parents supposedly regretting naming ther daughters Khaleesi but there's got to be more than a couple of Daenerys-es out there.


Even before she "turned bad"...
She had a rough season one. What's a young girl going to think when they see that.


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## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

tlc said:


> That's gotta hurt. Imagine that many people went to the trouble to complain about a job _you_ did! Luckily, hardly anyone is aware of what I do.
> 
> Regarding Rhaegal's demise. It just seemed like impossible shooting to me. They seemed _much_ to far away, shooting a moving target from the deck of a moving boat. What did they practice shooting at in the air? I imagine that an arrow's arc makes it harder to shoot long distances at elevated angles.


Actually, I DO understand what that feels like. You aren't aware of what I do, either......


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

And, for my final comment, I do hope the title of Game of Thrones, Season 8, Episode 6 is: "Queen of the Ashes"......(but, probably not...)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> He can't be trusted. He just wanted more time to finish the books since he agreed not to release any more before the show ends.


You do realize that was a hoax, right? That he never said or agreed to anything of the sort?


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You do realize that was a hoax, right? That he never said or agreed to anything of the sort?


Of course


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Of course


Good, just checking! Some people seemed to have taken that seriously...


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought this was interesting. I know everyone talks about how HBO wanted more and D&D said no but here's GRRM himself saying it.
> 
> GRRM Wanted More Seasons


Nah, if HBO wanted more seasons they could have replaced them. I know it's one of the most challenging shows in history to make, but I am sure there are people below them a rung or two who could have taken over. They have way longer time to figure things out on this show then your average drama.

-smak-


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I thought this was interesting. I know everyone talks about how HBO wanted more and D&D said no but here's GRRM himself saying it.
> 
> GRRM Wanted More Seasons


Heck, I'd want four more seasons of HBO big money too.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Hand it off to others and give us 2 seasons of Ghost and Tormund after this weekend. GRRM says that’s what he wants.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Hand it off to others and give us 2 seasons of Ghost and Tormund after this weekend. GRRM says that's what he wants.


And we'd still only see Ghost for 5 minutes a season.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I wonder if the fan reaction to the plot points in this season might cause GRRM to change his plans for the ultimate outcomes of the books. What if he told D&D what he intended to do, they executed it poorly and got the fans all pissed off, so he decides to go a completely different direction, just to completely divorce his series from the way GoT ended? Or would he take it as a challenge to simply do all the necessary character development so that when his books end up in the same place, it seems infinitely more satisfying?


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

smak said:


> Nah, if HBO wanted more seasons they could have replaced them. I know it's one of the most challenging shows in history to make, but I am sure there are people below them a rung or two who could have taken over. They have way longer time to figure things out on this show then your average drama.
> 
> -smak-


For sure. But why wouldn't HBO want more seasons? I think I heard that they did, but it doesn't all add up. If they did, and they replaced D&D, it seems like everyone could be happy. Maybe D&D didn't really want to leave it in the hands of anyone else, but now they get to take the blame for rushing the ending.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

markb said:


> For sure. But why wouldn't HBO want more seasons? I think I heard that they did, but it doesn't all add up. If they did, and they replaced D&D, it seems like everyone could be happy. Maybe D&D didn't really want to leave it in the hands of anyone else, but now they get to take the blame for rushing the ending.


My theory is, HBO is going to have a GOT prequel on the air at the same time that a new season of GOT would have been on.

And the big thing is, they get to reset the budget, and especially the salaries. Lena Headey was up to 1 million an episode. I think Drinklage, and a few others at 500k, and then going down the line, and the production itself was an enormous amount.

Look at how much they saved by going to 7 & 6 episodes the last 2 years.

This way, they have a GOT universe show on, just like always, and it costs WAY less.

-smak-


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wonder if the fan reaction to the plot points in this season might cause GRRM to change his plans for the ultimate outcomes of the books. What if he told D&D what he intended to do, they executed it poorly and got the fans all pissed off, so he decides to go a completely different direction, just to completely divorce his series from the way GoT ended? Or would he take it as a challenge to simply do all the necessary character development so that when his books end up in the same place, it seems infinitely more satisfying?


From all the descriptions of his writing style, I'd say that a more likely scenario is something like: He told D&D how he expected things to end _at that time_. As he continues to write out the stories of his characters, he may or may not come to a point where he realizes that the characters just aren't going that way, and that the ending(s) need to change. Either way, the characters' respective journeys will be totally organic and fully fleshed out, 'cause that's just how he rolls...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> I wonder if the fan reaction to the plot points in this season might cause GRRM to change his plans for the ultimate outcomes of the books. What if he told D&D what he intended to do, they executed it poorly and got the fans all pissed off, so he decides to go a completely different direction, just to completely divorce his series from the way GoT ended? Or would he take it as a challenge to simply do all the necessary character development so that when his books end up in the same place, it seems infinitely more satisfying?


I'm half convinced D&D's alterations are not where GRRM intends to go. Euron in the show is not the same Euron in the books. Tyrion gives good advice to another would be "sitter on the throne" and Varys is pledged to someone who isn't introduced until book 5 and never appears in the show. I think Jaime might be killed by the other person in the books with a claim "valid or bs" to the throne, Brienne's arc in the books was last seen where she might be executed in a bad bad way or go though some torture altering her path. In the books I dont think Sansa is the one that married and raped by Ramsay (it's been like 8 years since I read it) but someone else pretending to be Sansa with enough knowledge of Winterfel to pass it off.
D&D consolidated a lot of story lines of multiple characters into the ones they wanted to keep in the show. For all we know Sansa killed off somewhere and the book character whose plot they borrowed from is the one that falls in love with Theon at the end. Or Jon could have his arc now intermingled with the character introduced in book 5 that Tyrion meets, who is missing in the show. I am pretty certain though Dany does go mad but she has more obstacles she needs to get through before taking Kings Landing. Honestly Cersei had no arc this season other than getting ****ed by Euron, feeling sad about no elephants, standing on a balcony and dying... I kind of think she doesn't make it to the end in GRRM's version of things which is why they kind of forgot to write for her.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

robojerk said:


> I'm half convinced D&D's alterations are not where GRRM intends to go. Euron in the show is not the same Euron in the books. Tyrion gives good advice to another would be "sitter on the throne" and Varys is pledged to someone who isn't introduced until book 5 and never appears in the show. I think Jaime might be killed by the other person in the books with a claim "valid or bs" to the throne, Brienne's arc in the books was last seen where she might be executed in a bad bad way or go though some torture altering her path. In the books I dont think Sansa is the one that married and raped by Ramsay (it's been like 8 years since I read it) but someone else pretending to be Sansa with enough knowledge of Winterfel to pass it off.
> D&D consolidated a lot of story lines of multiple characters into the ones they wanted to keep in the show. For all we know Sansa killed off somewhere and the book character whose plot they borrowed from is the one that falls in love with Theon at the end. Or Jon could have his arc now intermingled with the character introduced in book 5 that Tyrion meets, who is missing in the show. I am pretty certain though Dany does go mad but she has more obstacles she needs to get through before taking Kings Landing. Honestly Cersei had no arc this season other than getting ****** by Euron, feeling sad about no elephants, standing on a balcony and dying... I kind of think she doesn't make it to the end in GRRM's version of things which is why they kind of forgot to write for her.


Jeyne Poole, who Ramsay thought was Arya.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

realityboy said:


> And we'd still only see Ghost for 5 minutes a season.


When did CGI get so expensive. It used to be easy:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

markb said:


> For sure. But why wouldn't HBO want more seasons? I think I heard that they did, but it doesn't all add up. If they did, and they replaced D&D, it seems like everyone could be happy. Maybe D&D didn't really want to leave it in the hands of anyone else, but now they get to take the blame for rushing the ending.


Here's the specific quote from David Benioff in the showrunners Season 8 preview interview with EW:



> BENIOFF: HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season. We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends.


Lots of other good info in there as well.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

George RR Martin: 'Game of Thrones is NOT my baby anymore, I gave it up for adoption'
"In the same interview, Martin lamented how it was a blow when he realised the TV show would overtake his books.
He said: "I published a fifth book [A Dance With Dragons] in 2011 when the series was just going on the air, so I was like five books ahead.
"I was completely confident that I would have the entire series finished. Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring would be out before they got to them."
Host Anderson Cooper pointed out that Martin once said he would find it alarming if the series overtook the books' narrative.
Martin responded: "Yes, it was a blow when the series caught up. I didn't think it would happen."
Nevertheless, Martin says the Game of Thrones ending won't be that different to A Dream of Spring, except for secondary characters.
He added: "I don't think [Game of Thrones show-runners] Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have.
"We're talking here about several days of story conferences taking place in my home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. But there's no way to get in all the detail, all the minor characters, all the secondary characters."

George R.R. Martin slams 'absurd' rumor about the final 'Game of Thrones' books
"I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago&#8230; and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me."

I'll be very interested to see how it goes in the books...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

hefe said:


> George R.R. Martin slams 'absurd' rumor about the final 'Game of Thrones' books
> "I assure you, HBO and David & Dan would both have been thrilled and delighted if THE WINDS OF WINTER had been delivered and published four or five years ago&#8230; and NO ONE would have been more delighted than me."
> 
> I'll be very interested to see how it goes in the books...


While I don't buy into the rumor that article is addressing, didn't GRRM himself say that Winds of Winter would be released before S7 started back in 2017? That must mean that most of that book was done at that time and must be even closer to being done now.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> While I don't buy into the rumor that article is addressing, didn't GRRM himself say that Winds of Winter would be released before S7 started back in 2017? That must mean that most of that book was done at that time and must be even closer to being done now.


Across the years, he has always been insanely optimistic about his future progress...he used to promise publication dates for books he hadn't even started writing yet. After the second book, he still thought it was going to be a trilogy.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Across the years, he has always been insanely optimistic about his future progress...he used to promise publication dates for books he hadn't even started writing yet. After the second book, he still thought it was going to be a trilogy.


He's just getting sidetracked by all the food descriptions.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

It seems to me that Dany was always wearing white in the early innocent times up until she wore a white/grey fur-leather outfit when her dragon Viserion was killed by the Night King. Her outfits then turned black as her character embraced the dark side, including the razing of King's Landing. 

There was similar use of color symbolism in "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad" and "Better Call Saul" ... a clever trope.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> When did CGI get so expensive. It used to be easy:


I'll "see" your "Grizzly Adams" and "raise" you a "Gentle Ben".


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I started rewatching the series this week for ****s and giggles...and everyone looks like those snapchat kid filters that have been going around on Facebook.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I will probably rewatch starting next weekend. Maybe pick a good GOT podcast to listen to after each episode.

It'll probably take me until the prequel to watch them all.

-smak-


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Very late finally chiming in. 

Short versions. 

Yes Dany is mad/crazy/evil (more likely the last). This couldn't be more clear. She very clearly has lost the support of all she cared for and who cared for her and have her support and guidance (except gray worm). It will be a race to see who kills her. Maybe noone does but they almost all don't want her to rule anymore. 

Everyone who is dead is dead. There will be no crazy reveals on this front. There rarely ever have been.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

*Sansa*: Why did you make the dragon kill all those people?

*Bran*: You said you wanted Jon to be King. This was the only way.

*Sansa*: And Arya?

*Bran*: Still alive. I've sent her a horse.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

VDOT is ready for tonight!


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## zyzzx (Jan 22, 2002)

andyw715 said:


> VDOT is ready for tonight!
> 
> View attachment 41090


I saw that sign driving home from this afternoon. Nice.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

dslunceford said:


> And I wonder how much of that is just having detailed source outlines vs completed source material? While I admired how they took dense, sometimes complex source material and brought it to life so well on the small screen, I think that once they eclipsed the books, overall writing seemed to suffer for it. Nothing I could put my finger on to say "that's not how Martin would've blah blah blah", but just felt not quite the same.
> 
> I mean, I can easily imagine that what we watch in this season will feel like a Cliff Notes version if/when stories are published (whereas I didn't feel that way about earlier seasons in how they relate/compare to the books).


This Wired story captures what I couldn't articulate well:

Why the writing on Game if Thrones S8 seems off - Why the Writing in Season 8 of 'Game of Thrones' Feels Off


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dslunceford said:


> This Wired story captures what I couldn't articulate well:
> 
> Why the writing on Game if Thrones S8 seems off - Why the Writing in Season 8 of 'Game of Thrones' Feels Off


That's interesting...he makes exactly the same argument that the guy I cited a few pages back made, right down to pantsers vs. plotters. He even added a note after I first posted it, referring to your guy whom he discovered after he wrote his piece.

And it remains a very convincing explanation for what has gone wrong this season and why.

I have to say, I don't think this is a Lost-level disaster, where the final season basically ruins the entire show. But I do think there is a fairly substantial drop in quality here, which doesn't ruin but does diminish the series. It's a shame that they achieved such greatness, only to not be able to stick the landing.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's interesting...he makes exactly the same argument that the guy I cited a few pages back made, right down to pantsers vs. plotters. He even added a note after I first posted it, referring to your guy whom he discovered after he wrote his piece.


I feel like I've seen this same comparison of these two analysis before.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Media blackout.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So a last minute thought here. I've read the whole thread over the week, but I don't recall anyone posting this thought. There is maybe at best a 1% likelihood of this, but I rewatched this episode again last night. It didn't occur to me the first time that the final Arya/horse scene almost seemed like it could be like an after-death encounter. It was almost spiritual. She sort of woke up, and I think the streets were all completely empty. Then there is this magical white horse. Almost like a version of go into the light. I'm pretty certain Arya is going to be alive and well tonight, but there is that slight change. Did anyone else take it that way? (and yes, please feel free to link to your post if I'm smeeking you).


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