# S3 Clear QAM Tuner Mapping Update



## vstone (May 11, 2002)

For all of you clamoring for Tivo to add QAM mapping to the S3, read on:

Before cablecard, my S3 got about 16 channels, all numbered zero.

A clear QAM TV at a vacation home found some but not all unencrypted channels.

I bought the new Samsung digital STB for testing.

Scanning the S3 coax with the Samsung, it found the channels as 93-3, etc., but the only assigned channel number was 501, which is an ESPN premium channel here.

Scanning the vacatiopn home coax with the cable, I found all the expected unencypted channels, plus an extra CBS. The ones with assigned channel numbers (801, 805, etc) were the ones that the clear QAM TV found.

The answer to clear QAM mapping is to have the cable company finish setting up their cable plant correctly.

The vacation home cable tech was actually a system tech, not an install tech, and he didn't know a thing about clear QAM tuners. The vacation home had broadcast basic cable and didn't pick up anything digital until I suggested that he remove the filter from the pole that blocked the rest of the analog cable channels. I'm not sure he ever understood what was going on.

The cable companies have lots of good people, but the cable companies always do the least that they can get away with. Since this is murcky tech stuff hidden in the cable system, customers don't even know what they should be compaining about.

Yes it would be nice to have Tivo write some extra code, but a better answer is to tell your cable company to get off of its patootie.


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## LHMPDX (Mar 16, 2000)

My channel scan upon first connecting the Series 3 before Cable Card installation shows that Comcast Portland has an apparently new, easier scheme for QAM HD identification.

2 is ABC and 2-1 is ABC HD
3 is CW and 3-1 is CW HD
6 is CBS and 6-1 is CBS HD 
etc. 

also, 12 is Fox and "12-1 Fox HD" shows up as the channel after the scan.

Of course, still no guide data.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

I wonder if they're doing this to foil customers not using a STB or cablecard. It appears contrary to the FCC's intent.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

LHMPDX:

I think that is the normal nomenclature. If I scan all OTA channels with my HD TV Tuner (no TiVo involved), I get:

Analog
2 
Digital
2-1
2-2
Analog
4
Digital
4-1
Analog
5
Digital 
5-1


And, here's a twist, my Polaroid 26" TV get's an OTA TV Guide! My Panasonic 42" can't do that. 

etc.


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## PhillyGuy (Mar 12, 2006)

It's easier to have one company to update the software that we are paying a monthly subscription to than to rely on hundreds of cable companies across the country to change their system.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

PhillyGuy said:


> It's easier to have one company to update the software that we are paying a monthly subscription to than to rely on hundreds of cable companies across the country to change their system.


Well, I agree that its easier for us to get Tivo to fix it, but since Tivo has other issues to worry about, it's easier for them to have us complain to the cable companies until they get around to it. By the time they get around to it, it may not be necessary for them to do it.

Based on other posts, it may be that some companies pass the OTA signal stream without stripping out the PSIP info.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

pl1 said:


> ...And, here's a twist, my Polaroid 26" TV get's an OTA TV Guide!
> ...


I think TV Guide data is embedded in the PBS signal.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

I know one thing, I flipped out my cable guy when I showed him that! He couldn't believe the guide data or the quality of the OTA signal!


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Right now even if a clear QAM channel has the PSIP information and is mapped to the friendly channel number that corresponds to the OTA channel number and hence has associated OTA guide listings it still does no good as the cable channel lineup doesn't have those numbers.

What Tivo would need to provide is a means for example for me to manually specify that 99-3 maps to cable channel 707.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

moyekj said:


> ...What Tivo would need to provide is a means for example for me to manually specify that 99-3 maps to cable channel 707.


NAIL on the HEAD :up:


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

It would be nice if someone from Tivo would grace us with the information about how specific or vague the requirements on the cable companies are, assuming it is even addressed somewhere. Based on FCC actions to date, it's probably not.

It would be interesting to know why this didn't show up during beta testing. I would assume they'd test it on a reasonablt large number of cable plants.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

vstone said:


> It would be interesting to know why this didn't show up during beta testing. I would assume they'd test it on a reasonablt large number of cable plants.


This issue has *nothing at all* to do with beta testing. It was a well understood up-front decision on the part of TiVo.

BTW I think TiVo is wrong, but that is a far different issue than saying that this just simply escaped TiVo's attention.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> This issue has *nothing at all* to do with beta testing. It was a well understood up-front decision on the part of TiVo.
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you know this for a fact?


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

vstone said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you know this for a fact?


 In megazone's review he mentions that clear QAM channel mapping was something that Tivo stated they don't support but would think about for a future release:


megazone said:


> There is currently no way to manually map channels. TiVo is looking into the possibility to provide mapping in the future.


So I don't think it was an oversight by Tivo but something that was purposefully left out.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Not court-proof, but, based on how they worded it, I'd certainly have to agree with you about it being a conscious decision.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Hmm
There's a comment above about some cable companies not stripping PSIP data from the rebroadcasted channels

So, has anyone ever tried hooking their Cable line to the Ant-In on the TiVo and doing a channel scan? I wonder if it would find anything... I'll have to try that


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

vstone said:


> Well, I agree that its easier for us to get Tivo to fix it, but since Tivo has other issues to worry about, it's easier for them to have us complain to the cable companies until they get around to it. By the time they get around to it, it may not be necessary for them to do it.
> 
> Based on other posts, it may be that some companies pass the OTA signal stream without stripping out the PSIP info.


Here is Austin, TX we can get all our HD locals over unencrypted QAM. My S3 grabs all those channels (ranging from 1501 to 1542) and correctly displays the guide data for them. And I do NOT have any CableCards in my S3.

SO there is clearly some way for this to work - whether it was extra effort by Tivo or by TimeWarner in Austin I do not know. But obviously the current code base supports this sort of thing.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TydalForce said:


> So, has anyone ever tried hooking their Cable line to the Ant-In on the TiVo and doing a channel scan? I wonder if it would find anything... I'll have to try that


 Won't work. Only analog channels 2-13 may come through but nothing digital as digital cable uses QAM modulation versus OTA ATSC (digital over the air) uses 8VSB.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Scopeman said:


> Here is Austin, TX we can get all our HD locals over unencrypted QAM. My S3 grabs all those channels (ranging from 1501 to 1542) and correctly displays the guide data for them. And I do NOT have any CableCards in my S3.
> 
> SO there is clearly some way for this to work - whether it was extra effort by Tivo or by TimeWarner in Austin I do not know. But obviously the current code base supports this sort of thing.


 Your cable company must be adding their own PSIP information to the stream which is providing the mapping the Tivo needs. The normal case is for cable companies to pass through PSIP from the original OTA broadcast through in which case channels map to the OTA channel number, and in many cases the cable companies strip out PSIP while multiplexing. It could well be that your cable company is not re-broadcasting OTA but instead is receiving those HD channels from alternate sources with customized PSIP. Consider yourself lucky as that definately is not the norm and I don't see what the incentive is for your cable company to do this.


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## cableguy763 (Oct 29, 2006)

Consider yourself lucky as that definately is not the norm and I don't see what the incentive is for your cable company to do this.[/QUOTE]

How about their incentive is happy S3 customers.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

When I did a scan before I installed my CCs, all the digital channels were stacked between 100 and 120 using weird numbering schemes such as 116-13. The channels were not in "channel listing order" and blocks of channels were assigned what looked like random frequency blocks.

It's obvious the cable company didn't want people figuring out what was what.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

morac said:


> When I did a scan before I installed my CCs, all the digital channels were stacked between 100 and 120 using weird numbering schemes such as 116-13. The channels were not in "channel listing order" and blocks of channels were assigned what looked like random frequency blocks.
> 
> It's obvious the cable company didn't want people figuring out what was what.


 Actually the S3 has all the diagnostic info needed to map out the whole cable headend. If you go to diagnostics menu it tells you the frequencies the tuners are currently tuned to, even for channels that you don't subscribe to. I have made a map of my headend with a lot of help from the S3 diagnostics, see spreadsheet in my sig for an example.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

vstone said:


> I think TV Guide data is embedded in the PBS signal.


Thats correct if you have a TV Guide branded set, the simpler guide many sets have get the info from PSIP data sent with each individual channel.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Ok, that's what I'm getting, the simple guide, and only on some stations, so that must be PSIP.

For me (and others), What is PSIP?



> The Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) is the glue that holds the digital television (DTV) signal together. PSIP is an important standard of the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC), implementation of which is required by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for broadcasters in the U.S


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Moyekj,



> see spreadsheet in my sig for an example.


Holy crap! That's impressive! Is all that work going to pay off? Maybe something you could sell as a program or something?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

It looks like some people are lucky with QAM and guide data because their cable company gives proper station identifiers in the PSIP data. My local cable company doesn't. Instead of WBALDT, which is the actual call letters of the station, I get "NBCHD".


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

The right solution to this problem is for your cable company to fix it's end. Not Tivo.

Anything Tivo could do would be a Kludge, doing lots of extra work to work around a problem in how the system is supposed to work.

It the cable companies did what they're supposed to do the S3 will work fine the way it is. Period.

It may be more work in the short term to get the cable companies to fix their end, but in the long run many more people will be helped by that than by a software change on the tivo.

Fixing the Cable end will fix not only the S3, but also all the clear QAM set top tuners, and QAM tuners built into today's TV's and PC tuners. 

Fixing the Cable end will also remove the need for anyone to actually do the manual channel mapping themselves. Everything will just work.

Eventually the cable companies will get this all working. And when they do, the work that Tivo might do to fix this, will be rendered useless and obsolete. It will end up being a waste of effort.

-Kyle


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Cable Companies have a strong incentive *not* to make this work....

They want you to rent a cable box or CableCARD or some other contraption -- which costs you money, and increases their revenue

Now, maybe down the road they'll decide to kill the analog broadcasts, and everyone with more vintage equipment will need converter boxes of some sort... and maybe THEN they'll go for something more obvious and standard and functional so you can just go to Radio Shack and buy a $20 set top box for the old TV...


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

LHMPDX said:


> My channel scan upon first connecting the Series 3 before Cable Card installation shows that Comcast Portland has an apparently new, easier scheme for QAM HD identification.
> 2 is ABC and 2-1 is ABC HD
> 3 is CW and 3-1 is CW HD
> 6 is CBS and 6-1 is CBS HD
> ...


This looks like the thread to ask my dumb questions.

I'm planning on buying an S3, now that the prices have dropped a bit. I have a Series 2 now. But I am a cheap-skate technophile. Setup:
-- I only have analog cable. 
-- I have a 42" plasma HDTV. 
-- I do not plan on installing cablecards.
-- Right now I know I receive some HD channels -- the broadcast channels like 2 - 1 (CBS), 4 - 1 (NBC) etc. because I split the coax cable, one way into the S2, the other into the HDTV. The S2 of course filters out the HD signals, but the HDTV does display them.

So my dumb question is, what will I see with the S3? What do I record?
-- Will I be able to record HD channels?
-- How do I/will I tune into channel 2 - 1 ? Does the Tivo S3 supprt that or does it require the high-numbered channels for it to record? My channels only go up to 89 (no channels at 112 or 522 or whatever).

Thanks,
Allen


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## LHMPDX (Mar 16, 2000)

"So my dumb question is, what will I see with the S3? What do I record? 
-- Will I be able to record HD channels? 
-- How do I/will I tune into channel 2 - 1 ? Does the Tivo S3 supprt that or does it require the high-numbered channels for it to record? My channels only go up to 89 (no channels at 112 or 522 or whatever)." 

1. Yes you can record HD channels 
2. At initial setup, you tell the TiVo to scan for all the channels you receive. It will show 2-1 as one of them. You tune to it by moving one channel up from 2. 

But cheap-skate or not, I wouldn't advise buying a TiVo without the guide, wishlists, etc., that you can only get with cable cards. Also, the SD picture on the true analog channels is pretty bad on the S3. Maybe you can convince someone at your cable co. to give you the cards alone, without making you purchase a complete digital package? (Only about $1.50 per month.)


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

enthalpy said:


> So my dumb question is, what will I see with the S3? What do I record?
> -- Will I be able to record HD channels?
> -- How do I/will I tune into channel 2 - 1 ? Does the Tivo S3 supprt that or does it require the high-numbered channels for it to record? My channels only go up to 89 (no channels at 112 or 522 or whatever).


The S3 will likely be able to find them on a channel scan, but won't recognize what stations they are for guide data and scheduling.

Have you tried hooking up a UHF antenna to your HDTV to see what channels you get? The S3 will probably get the same or more channels and be able to get guide data (both cable and antenna can hook to the S3 at the same time).


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

The remote has a "dash" button so you can type 2-1 
You (probably) won't get guide info for those channels coming through cable. You'd have to get a CableCARD

It might be worth trying an antenna and seeing what you can get over-the-air as an alternative to CableCARD

Even if you don't get CableCARD or Antenna, the S3 does deliver a better picture quality for analogue than the S2 series does. i was pleasantly surprised at the improvement compared to my old Humax DRT800


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

LHMPDX said:


> 1. Yes you can record HD channels
> 2. At initial setup, you tell the TiVo to scan for all the channels you receive. It will show 2-1 as one of them. You tune to it by moving one channel up from 2.
> 
> But cheap-skate or not, I wouldn't advise buying a TiVo without the guide, wishlists, etc., that you can only get with cable cards. Also, the SD picture on the true analog channels is pretty bad on the S3. Maybe you can convince someone at your cable co. to give you the cards alone, without making you purchase a complete digital package? (Only about $1.50 per month.)


Well . . . is it really only $1.50 per month? I don't have digital cable, I don't subscribe to an HD cable package. My cable provider just hasnt' filtered out the HD side channels. So my cheapskate description applies -- I don't want to upgrade to an HD cable package, because I'd have to upgrade to premium-basic ($40 per month more), which then qualifies me for the HD package ($6 per month more). I'm trying get by cheaply with just standard basic cable.

(cheapskate explanation: I don't mind buying a one-time $600 series 3, but I do mind increasing my monthly costs)

Are cable companies really willing to rent the cablecards without requiring me to upgrade to a higher priced plan???


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

vman41 said:


> The S3 will likely be able to find them on a channel scan, but won't recognize what stations they are for guide data and scheduling.
> 
> Have you tried hooking up a UHF antenna to your HDTV to see what channels you get? The S3 will probably get the same or more channels and be able to get guide data (both cable and antenna can hook to the S3 at the same time).


Oh, I don't like the the sound of that. So I can manually key in the channel 2-1, but why won't the quide know what that is? The guide on my series 2 knows what channels I receive. Why doesn't it know about the HD channels? That's only available when using the cablecard?

I did hook up an antenna borrowed from a friend with HDTV. I got nothing. I'm tucked in between hills halfway between NYC and Philly. The reception is not good.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

enthalpy said:


> Are cable companies really willing to rent the cablecards without requiring me to upgrade to a higher priced plan???


 There have been reports of people able to do this though I don't think it's common. My cable company - Cox, Orange County, CA requires either the minimum digital package or a digital gateway in order to rent cablecards which is why a means of clear QAM channel mapping would be very useful to me especially if I buy a 2nd S3 at some point where I wouldn't really need cable only channels on the 2nd S3.


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

TydalForce said:


> The remote has a "dash" button so you can type 2-1
> You (probably) won't get guide info for those channels coming through cable. You'd have to get a CableCARD
> 
> It might be worth trying an antenna and seeing what you can get over-the-air as an alternative to CableCARD
> ...


Huh, (cheapskate alert), if I won't get accurate guide information, I wouldn't even bother subscribing to the tivo monthly service for the s3 then. If I'm manually programming my favorite programs, that removes the big benefit of subscribing to Tivo.

So, I suppose I could keep the series 2 subscribed, keep it's tivo to go feature, let is record standard definition shows, and buy the series 3 and manually program in the shows I want recorded in HD.

(As I said in my other reply, antenna OTA won't work well for me. So the OTA information doesn't get sent via my analog cable?)


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

LHMPDX said:


> 1. Yes you can record HD channels
> 2. At initial setup, you tell the TiVo to scan for all the channels you receive. It will show 2-1 as one of them. You tune to it by moving one channel up from 2.
> 
> But cheap-skate or not, I wouldn't advise buying a TiVo without the guide, wishlists, etc., that you can only get with cable cards. Also, the SD picture on the true analog channels is pretty bad on the S3. Maybe you can convince someone at your cable co. to give you the cards alone, without making you purchase a complete digital package? (Only about $1.50 per month.)


A couple of corrections:

You can tune 2-1 directly. The skip to tick button also serves as a "-".

The SD picture on my 57" HDTV through the S3 is actually very good; better than it was on my 32" non-HDTV.

Lots of people are running S3 with analog cable and full guides, wishlists, etc. Some are getting OTA HD, again with full guides.

You may or may not be able to finagle guide info for the HD channels you can receive in the clear without cable cards. Since your cable company is mapping channels onto their natural numbers (eg 2-1, instead of 103-5), you might be able to lie to the TiVo about your lineup. But I've seen only a couple of successes reported in doing this, and I'm not clear why it worked! So I wouldn't count on it.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

enthalpy said:


> Huh, (cheapskate alert), if I won't get accurate guide information, I wouldn't even bother subscribing to the tivo monthly service for the s3 then. If I'm manually programming my favorite programs, that removes the big benefit of subscribing to Tivo.
> 
> So, I suppose I could keep the series 2 subscribed, keep it's tivo to go feature, let is record standard definition shows, and buy the series 3 and manually program in the shows I want recorded in HD.


You need a subscription to do any kind of recording on either an S2 or an S3.

On the S3 without cable cards but with a sub, you would have guide info for most of your shows (non-HD) but probably have to record the HD channels with manual recordings, unless you get lucky.


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## frantishak (Dec 7, 2006)

does anyone know if upcoming 8.1 upgrade will improve anything with the in-the-clear QAM?


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Re: halfway between Philly and NYC --- you'd have to get a good antenna mounted on your roof, and possibly a directional antenna pointed at either city

Re: 8.1 update --- we don't know yet, but there's a Feature Request page on TiVo.com you might want to drop them a note and say "We want QAM Mapping" http://research.tivo.com/suggestions


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## enthalpy (Oct 11, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> You need a subscription to do any kind of recording on either an S2 or an S3.
> 
> On the S3 without cable cards but with a sub, you would have guide info for most of your shows (non-HD) but probably have to record the HD channels with manual recordings, unless you get lucky.


Really? I have assumed that a Tivo without a subscription equals a (very smart ) VCR. Select channel. select time. record.

What happpens if I have no subscription?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

enthalpy said:


> What happpens if I have no subscription?


You can play back previously recorded programs and watch "Live TV" with trick play, but that's it.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

moyekj said:


> Right now even if a clear QAM channel has the PSIP information and is mapped to the friendly channel number that corresponds to the OTA channel number and hence has associated OTA guide listings it still does no good as the cable channel lineup doesn't have those numbers.


That really doesn't matter. 99% of what you can find unencrypted is the broadcast stations (because the FCC mandates they not be encrypted.) And the tivo will almost certainly have information for those -- even if you only entered "cable" as a source. In the S1/S2 world, the "antenna channels" are a filtered subset of the basic cable lineup. Any channel that has a non-null "FCC ID" is a broadcast channel. I've not taken the S3's database apart, but I doubt it's significantly different. The information necessary to associate guide data to clear qam channels _is_ there, in most cases the PSIP stream is not being removed. Tivo simply hasn't glued it together, because it's a very non-trivial thing to code. (including changes to the UI which is a major item to Tivo, Inc.)



> What Tivo would need to provide is a means for example for me to manually specify that 99-3 maps to cable channel 707.


It's easy to say that in one sentence. Unfortunately, the code is a lot more than one sentence. Even if Tivo, Inc. commited to it today, I wouldn't expect to see for a year; UI's are a big deal to them. Tivo has a lot to work on; as much as people (me included) would like to have it, it's just not important. Odds are, as a cable subscriber, you're entitled to more than the token 5 unencrypted broadcast stations for which you'll need a cableCARD(tm); and *poof* mapping's suddenly no longer an issue.



TydalForce said:


> So, has anyone ever tried hooking their Cable line to the Ant-In on the TiVo and doing a channel scan?


You won't find anything, esp. if the tivo is looking for cable channels. There's two connectors on the back. One is for an antenna. One is for cable. When the tivo goes looking for a cable channel, it looks on the "cable" input. Plugging your cable line into the antenna won't get you very far -- about the same as your TV when you plug cable in and leave it set to antenna. The best you could get is the VHF channels (2-13) as they're the same freqs on both systems. It might hit a fuzzy station or two above that depending on how far off center the tivo will tune. It won't find a single digital channel because it'll be looking for 8VSB encoding -- digital cable is QAM64 or QAM256.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

enthalpy said:


> Really? I have assumed that a Tivo without a subscription equals a (very smart ) VCR. Select channel. select time. record.


That was true of very early "Series 1" TiVos, and certain TiVo/DVD combos.

The general rule is "No sub? No workie".



enthalpy said:


> What happpens if I have no subscription?


You have a lovely giant paperweight.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Why would anyone spend $600 on an S3 and not subscribe to the TiVo service?


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

Is there any chance that once cable companies get rid of all analog stations, that the Basic/Standard lineup will be delivered clear QAM? Or do the cable companies plan for every TV to have a cable box forever?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there any chance that once cable companies get rid of all analog stations, that the Basic/Standard lineup will be delivered clear QAM? Or do the cable companies plan for every TV to have a cable box forever?


I doubt it. I don't think the general population is ready for a cable channel like 93-107. Plus, the cable companies want customers to have STBs for the PPV revenue.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I guess a followup question to that would be....

Is it possible for the Cable Company to shove some kind of data downstream to devices like the Series3 or any QAM-compatible device, to map channels like 95-4 to 'familiar' channel numbers like 203 ?

Right now that requires the CableCARD of course, but could they do it if they wanted to? Or is that not part of the standard?


However, over-the-air broadcasts are doing 10-1 10-2 65-4 etc so I think people could get used to it with cable channels too


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there any chance that once cable companies get rid of all analog stations, that the Basic/Standard lineup will be delivered clear QAM? Or do the cable companies plan for every TV to have a cable box forever?


 For my cable company - Cox, Orange County, CA the limited basic lineup of channels (essentially all the locals including SD & HD versions) are all unencrypted. Hardly any of them have any PSIP information however so they don't map to "friendly" channel numbers when not using Cablecards or set top box.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TydalForce said:


> I guess a followup question to that would be....
> 
> Is it possible for the Cable Company to shove some kind of data downstream to devices like the Series3 or any QAM-compatible device, to map channels like 95-4 to 'familiar' channel numbers like 203 ?


 Yes, the PSIP information can do exactly that, but it means your cable company has to fabricate the appropriate information for each unencrypted channel, which comes at a cost and there's not much incentive for them to do that.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

Mike Farrington said:


> I doubt it. I don't think the general population is ready for a cable channel like 93-107. Plus, the cable companies want customers to have STBs for the PPV revenue.


I hope there is some day when I don't have to pay an Additional Outlet fee for every Tv in my house, just to get basic cable in digital.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there any chance that once cable companies get rid of all analog stations, that the Basic/Standard lineup will be delivered clear QAM? Or do the cable companies plan for every TV to have a cable box forever?


When analog OTA stations go away, analog cable may or may not, depending on your cable company. At least one cable company is going all digital in 2008. Others want to be able to downrez OTA HD channels to SD so their customers with analog cable ready TV's who don't want a cable box won't have to rent one. Some TV stations don't want to allow the expensive HD sugnal to be downgraded.

I would bet that the analog basic broadcast tier, which I think is mandated by the FCC, will be replaced with a clear QAM tier. They are essentially doing that now by combining broadcast basic with clear QAM.

The exciting news, of course, is a digital version of the Home Shopping Network.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TydalForce said:


> ...Is it possible for the Cable Company to shove some kind of data downstream to devices like the Series3 or any QAM-compatible device, to map channels like 95-4 to 'familiar' channel numbers like 203 ?...


If you've read this thread you'll know that some cable companies do nothing, some do as you ask, and others assign the OTA PSIP #'s (7-1, etc.). THe question for them is why should they do it at all. If they do which method do they choose.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

TydalForce said:


> Hmm
> There's a comment above about some cable companies not stripping PSIP data from the rebroadcasted channels
> 
> So, has anyone ever tried hooking their Cable line to the Ant-In on the TiVo and doing a channel scan? I wonder if it would find anything... I'll have to try that


I am not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure the FCC regulations state that if the feed to the cable company has PSIP data then the cable compnay must pass it along. The funny bit of this is that if Your cable company is just using an antenna at the head end to get the station then you are sure to get PSIP data. But if your cable company takes the time and money to get the signal via hardline, then it depends on where they extract the signal wether or not you get the data.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> I hope there is some day when I don't have to pay an Additional Outlet fee for every Tv in my house, just to get basic cable in digital.


dont bet on it.

I dont doubt that cable looked at satellites "mirroring fees" and liked what they saw.....

unless the FCC or COngress changes the current laws/regulations then I think we should get ready for the "additonal outlet" fees to apply to everything....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

vstone said:


> ...
> 
> The exciting news, of course, is a digital version of the Home Shopping Network.


not nearly as exciting as the bandwidth hogging HD version!


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## Jazhuis (Aug 30, 2006)

morac said:


> It's obvious the cable company didn't want people figuring out what was what.


Actually, they don't care so much. They tend to just group channels according to their own, bizarre numbering rituals. Or by the decisions of clueless engineers. Or by throwing darts at a chihuaha and measuring how loud it yelps or something. It'd actually be more work for them to come up with something bizarre AND keep changing it just to annoy customers. And while we know most of them like to annoy customers, they're generally too lazy to go to the effort to actively do it. 



vstone said:


> When analog OTA stations go away, analog cable may or may not, depending on your cable company. At least one cable company is going all digital in 2008. Others want to be able to downrez OTA HD channels to SD so their customers with analog cable ready TV's who don't want a cable box won't have to rent one. Some TV stations don't want to allow the expensive HD signal to be downgraded.


Digital != HD. The analog shutoff is the death of analog OTA broadcasting, not standard-definition broadcasting. Cable companies can get the SD feed from the TV station as well as the HD feed, and probably will broadcast it in analog for some time yet.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

cramer said:


> Tivo simply hasn't glued it together, because it's a very non-trivial thing to code. (including changes to the UI which is a major item to Tivo, Inc.).


True, but the vast majority of people would settle for a simple table mapping (e.g. like what the Sony DHG boxes have) to associate QAM frequency with the lineup channel. That coding IS trivial, especially since all the hard stuff is already in place.


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

moyekj said:


> Yes, the PSIP information can do exactly that, but it means your cable company has to fabricate the appropriate information for each unencrypted channel, which comes at a cost and there's not much incentive for them to do that.


Here in Southfield, MI Comcast passes along all PSIP info for ALL local broadcast stations. My series3 finds 2-1, 4-1, 7-1 etc... just fine and tunes them in perfectly all with the same channel numbers as over the air.

There is however NO info in the guide for these channels. So here we have the cable company behaving nicely but I can't get anywhere with the TiVo people. It's been four weeks trying to get the guide updated but no luck.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> True, but the vast majority of people would settle for a simple table mapping (e.g. like what the Sony DHG boxes have) to associate QAM frequency with the lineup channel. That coding IS trivial, especially since all the hard stuff is already in place.


On the backend, the code to do a table lookup is trivial, but it still is adding a table to a database. To do this in an existing database without impacting the existing data in the database should theoretically work but not automatic. The impact of an additional table on the database performance may not be trivial either.

One the front end, a new interface is required to access/edit this table, which is not trivial either.


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

SugarBowl said:


> Is there any chance that once cable companies get rid of all analog stations, that the Basic/Standard lineup will be delivered clear QAM? Or do the cable companies plan for every TV to have a cable box forever?


The FCC already mandates local stations be carried unencrypted. It's not a big deal to encrypted everything. It's actually much easier and more cost effective than installing signal traps. As for your second question, yes. STB's are a _MAJOR_ revenue stream for cable operators; they will not give it up.



TydalForce said:


> Is it possible for the Cable Company to shove some kind of data downstream to devices like the Series3 or any QAM-compatible device, to map channels like 95-4 to 'familiar' channel numbers like 203 ?


Yes. It's called PSIP. However, none of the existing infrastructure is designed to support the creation and insertion of the PSIP stream. It shows up for local stations because the OTA broadcasts are required to have it and most cableco's aren't going to the trouble to remove it. Of course, they'll never do it because there already is a solution: cableCARD(tm).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

kjmcdonald said:


> The right solution to this problem is for your cable company to fix it's end. Not Tivo.
> 
> ...
> It the cable companies did what they're supposed to do the S3 will work fine the way it is. Period.


What exactly is it that the cable company is "supposed to do"? (Create this "PSIP" information that other posts are talking about?)

If so, is this "supposed to do" an actual FCC regulation that we can quote chapter and verse to the cable company about?

If not, and it's just a "what cable companies would do in a perfect world" scenario, then it's just rainbows and unicorns as far as we're concerned.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

The PSIP is ALREADY included - usually in the PBS stream. My Sceptre TV picks up the entire guide info for every Digital channel broadcast.

What the cable company needs to do is stop being grinches and NOT strip this info out before they retransmit PBS.

Clear enough, mattack?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

again I'm pretty sure cable is NOT permitted to strip PSIP data (which BTW would be included on each channel not just as a big lump in the pbs stream). The issue seams to be that th eboradcasters add the PSIP right before their transmitter. So if your cable provider gets the feed via an antenna then you get the PSIP, but if your provider runs a fiber to the station, then it depends were at the station they pull the signal. If they take it out of the signal train somplace before the PSIP generator then there is no PSIP data to strip.

Here- let me look....

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ccess.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm



> 47CFR76.640(b)(1)
> Digital cable systems with an activated channel capacity of 750
> 
> MHz or greater shall comply with the following technical standards and
> ...


so if the system is an upgraded 750mhz system (47CFR76.640(b)(1)) AND the PSIP is "availible from the content provider"(47CFR76.640(b)(1)(iv) then the cable company must carry it so long as it doesn't take up more then the bandwidth max's in (47CFR76.640(b)(1)(iv)(E)

So i guess beside the getting it issue, smaller systems under 750 can ditch it.

I have no idea how the bandwidth limit in (E) works out in the real world. Can they truncate? Do they just ditch it all together? DO they pick certain feilds to include? Does it all just not matter becasue no provider would use that much data to describe their programs?

_disclaimer: not a lawyer, a television engineer, or particularly an expert at reading regulations so feel free to correct my interpretation if it is wrong._


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

our cable company does not strip psip. The channels have the same cable number as their OTA equivalent. They still don't have guide data though. 

I would think the cable company would have to publish a list of the Clear QAM channels that they receive, in order for Tribune (or whoever) to sell the service of providing listings.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> our cable company does not strip psip. The channels have the same cable number as their OTA equivalent. They still don't have guide data though.
> 
> I would think the cable company would have to publish a list of the Clear QAM channels that they receive, in order for Tribune (or whoever) to sell the service of providing listings.


can you get the channels OTA and do they have guide data that way?

I wonder if they strip the guide data to keep it under the bandwidth limits...


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

FYI: http://psip.org/


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## stevetd (Sep 23, 2006)

While we're on this subject I thought that I would seek some help from you guys.  I have an S3 with cards installed. I am on a Charter Digital package. Where I live Charter does not offer HD channels yet. I tried hooking up an antenna to the S3 with no luck (I'm in the sticks). I assumed that I was SOL. One day I connected the cable directly to the TV because I wanted to have something on the TV while I was listening to XM radio (everything is hooked up with HDMI) and to my surprise I was getting FoxHD on channel 69.1! Here's my problem though, I can not for the life of me figure out how to record it on the Tivo. I have redone the setup several times and that channel never shows in the lineup. My son is a Nascar fan (please forgive him, he's 12) and Fox is airing the Daytona 500 this year in HD but he will not be with me that weekend and I would really like to record it for him. Any suggestions?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

very odd- sounds as if they are carrying the channel but dont want to admit it so they dont put it in the cablecard system. 

Have you tried rerunning guided setup without the cablecards installed? I think you should then be able to set up a manual recording for 69.1 and you would be all set. All your other cablecard channels would be unaccessible at the time, but for a one time shot for your kid I'd try it myself. Then when the race is over put the cards back and redo guided setup. 

Label the cards so you put them back in the same slots as they came out to try and avoid any issues setting them back up. (in some cable systems they get married to the specific slot) 

BIG DISCLAIMER- removing and putting your cards back in might cause some cablecard headaches requiring calls to the cablecompnay to reprovision them. But again if it's important to your son then maybe you want to try.

good luck!


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Sounds like the cable company is adding the channels.


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

stevetd said:


> While we're on this subject I thought that I would seek some help from you guys.  I have an S3 with cards installed. I am on a Charter Digital package. Where I live Charter does not offer HD channels yet. I tried hooking up an antenna to the S3 with no luck (I'm in the sticks). I assumed that I was SOL. One day I connected the cable directly to the TV because I wanted to have something on the TV while I was listening to XM radio (everything is hooked up with HDMI) and to my surprise I was getting FoxHD on channel 69.1! Here's my problem though, I can not for the life of me figure out how to record it on the Tivo. I have redone the setup several times and that channel never shows in the lineup. My son is a Nascar fan (please forgive him, he's 12) and Fox is airing the Daytona 500 this year in HD but he will not be with me that weekend and I would really like to record it for him. Any suggestions?


Have you done a channel scan from the channel settings screen? I don't know if this would work with cards installed or not. When I did it(without cards) it found over 400 channels including all the local broadcast channels in HD. Most of the other channels were blank. One other odd thing is it found and tunes in all 48 music choice channels. The downside is of course that there is NO guide info for any of these channels. But you can do a manual record by time and channel just fine.


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## stevetd (Sep 23, 2006)

billyjoebob99 said:


> Have you done a channel scan from the channel settings screen? I don't know if this would work with cards installed or not. When I did it(without cards) it found over 400 channels including all the local broadcast channels in HD. Most of the other channels were blank. One other odd thing is it found and tunes in all 48 music choice channels. The downside is of course that there is NO guide info for any of these channels. But you can do a manual record by time and channel just fine.


I have done a channel scan with the same results that you got but.....NO 69.1!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

with the cards installed you cant scan for qam- have to pull the cards to do that.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

stevetd said:


> I have done a channel scan with the same results that you got but.....NO 69.1!


Can you directly tune 69-1 (the skip-to-tick button is the "-") on the TiVo?


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## stevetd (Sep 23, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Can you directly tune 69-1 (the skip-to-tick button is the "-") on the TiVo?


Nope.


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

stevetd said:


> Nope.


Now that I think about it I have the same issue with DiscoveryHD. My tv finds it on 84-2 but the TiVo can't find it when it scans and can't tune directly to it either.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

stevetd said:


> Nope.


that's WITH the cards installed- correct?

I beleive you need to pull the cards and do guided setup again without them and you will be able to tune.


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## entropy (Apr 1, 2002)

enthalpy said:


> Well . . . is it really only $1.50 per month? [...] Are cable companies really willing to rent the cablecards without requiring me to upgrade to a higher priced plan???


I have RCN in the Boston area and they're happy to rent me CableCARDs without charging me any more than I was previously paying for extended basic. They even offer National Geographic HD even though the SD version is a premium digital channel, and include Music Choice as well. We're lucky in the areas which RCN serves, because they want to get our money enough to actually give us things we want to buy.

(I haven't actually seen the bill yet, but they claim the only new charges will be $1.50 each for the two cards. I can't tune the digital premium channels, so I assume the CableCARDs believe I should only be getting basic digital channels.)

Even if my Series 3 mapped the clear QAM channels, for $3 a month I'd rent CableCARDs just to vote with my money and make the point that consumers really do want better choices.

~ Kiran <[email protected]>


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## stevetd (Sep 23, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> that's WITH the cards installed- correct?
> 
> I beleive you need to pull the cards and do guided setup again without them and you will be able to tune.


Yes and I'm _real_ nervous about pulling the cards. I'm hoping they will enable some HD channels by the time the race airs. The tech that came to my home said that Charter was about to do that along with VOD and phone service. I'll keep my fingers crossed. I appreciate everyones input and apologize to the OP if I high-jacked the thread.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> can you get the channels OTA and do they have guide data that way?
> 
> I wonder if they strip the guide data to keep it under the bandwidth limits...


Yes, tivo has guide listings for 5.1 OTA, but not for 5.1 on cable.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Yes, the PSIP information can do exactly that, but it means your cable company has to fabricate the appropriate information for each unencrypted channel, which comes at a cost and there's not much incentive for them to do that.


Since my cable company now retransmits all the local digital channels with PSIP data, put me in the camp that says TiVo should map automatically when it can. Manual mapping is problematic because the cable company can arbitrarily change the channel assignements. It will be much more reluctant to change the mapping for unencrypted QAM channels when doing so will disrupt lots of customers with QAM capable TV sets and other devices that are building maps automatically from PSIP data.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

SugarBowl said:


> Yes, tivo has guide listings for 5.1 OTA, but not for 5.1 on cable.


TiVo's guide data comes from TiVo.com (the daily call), all it needs from the PSIP data is the unique stream ID issued by the FCC for that station. You aren't getting guide data for 5.1 cable because the software only loads the cable channel map from cablecard information.


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## Stevesreed (Jun 24, 2002)

If Tivo is not already working on a remapping solution I doubt we will see it for quite some time if it needs a whole on screen interface ,etc. 

Couldn't they just add a web interface quickly, that lets you enter the remapping data from the PC?


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

Stevesreed said:


> If Tivo is not already working on a remapping solution I doubt we will see it for quite some time if it needs a whole on screen interface ,etc.
> 
> Couldn't they just add a web interface quickly, that lets you enter the remapping data from the PC?


I'm confused. My local NBC affiliate is channel 4-1. It shows up as 4-1 on my TV over the air tuner and shows up as 4-1 on the TiVo antenna input with all of the guide data. When I plug my cable into my series3 and scan for channels (I don't have cable cards) the TiVo finds channel 4-1, my local NBC, but provides no guide info.

I understand the issues with other HD cable content that needs to be mapped but in this case TiVo is already mapping it correctly. It indentifies the channel by the PSIP data and gives it the right channel number. Why can't TiVo add the data to the guide. If I fill out their form saying that channel 47 is labeled TNT when it should be TCM, within a week the guide is corrected. But I get no where with this issue. Can someone explain why they can't or won't do this with my local channels.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

one thing I'm wondering for you folks sans cablecard but with pip.

I think i gotthe answer form above but i'm not positive-

Are you saying that tivo doesn't pay attention to the pip info carried over qam? So if your cable company carries Digital OTA 2-1 on some crazy qam channel but the pip without cable cards says 2-1 tivo still doens't link the guide data?

That seems like somethign they should change. If the pip is there they should respect it. I dont see a downside- if the card is in then the QAM mapping info comes from the card- so why not just make it so if the card is out map from the pip in QAM.


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> Are you saying that tivo doesn't pay attention to the pip info carried over qam?


What I'm saying is that the TiVo UNIT does pay attention to the PSIP data and maps the channel to 4-1. What TiVo the COMPANY is unable or unwilling to do is add data for the channel to the guide.

Maybe it's a giant conspiracy between TiVo and Comcast to force people to upgrade to their digital service. But honestly I'm not sure either has the brains to think that far ahead.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

For the case with cable channels with OTA PSIP information it's pretty simple. Taking an example above let's say you hook up you S3 to cable directly and without cablecards. The Tivo S3 after a scan would see the channel as 4.1 (cbl). The problem is the Tivo guide listings do not have a 4.1 (cbl). The listings for that channel are on the local cable company assigned channel number, such as 704. There are no cable channels using the #.# scheme. As a result there is no guide data 4.1 (cbl) and so the guide just shows "Regular Schedule" and so of course you can't do season passes, wishlists etc.

Now Tivo does have listings for 4.1 (ant). It would have been nice if Tivo could recognize that 4.1 (ant) and 4.1 (cbl) are equivalent and thus give the 4.1 (ant) listings to 4.1 (cbl). In that case there is no manual mapping of channels or anything the user needs to do to get things working.

Of course the harder case has already been discussed to death where there is no PSIP information and the channel shows up as RF.subChannel format such as 99.3. In that case only a means for manual mapping would work.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

moyekj said:


> For the case with cable channels with OTA PSIP information it's pretty simple. Taking an example above let's say you hook up you S3 to cable directly and without cablecards. The Tivo S3 after a scan would see the channel as 4.1 (cbl). The problem is the Tivo guide listings do not have a 4.1 (cbl). The listings for that channel are on the local cable company assigned channel number, such as 704. There are no cable channels using the #.# scheme. As a result there is no guide data 4.1 (cbl) and so the guide just shows "Regular Schedule" and so of course you can't do season passes, wishlists etc.
> 
> Now Tivo does have listings for 4.1 (ant). It would have been nice if Tivo could recognize that 4.1 (ant) and 4.1 (cbl) are equivalent and thus give the 4.1 (ant) listings to 4.1 (cbl). In that case there is no manual mapping of channels or anything the user needs to do to get things working.
> 
> Of course the harder case has already been discussed to death where there is no PSIP information and the channel shows up as RF.subChannel format such as 99.3. In that case only a means for manual mapping would work.


I can see there poitn of view that manual mapping isn't the highest priority (not sure I agree but i can see their reasoning). BUTE there is no reason they shouldn't fix the quide so that 4.1(cbl) gets the same info that 4.1(ant) does. That would appear to be a much smaller task that makes a lot more sense and in theory could benefit many more people going forward.

From my post of the FCC reg above I'm under the impression that cable systems serving most people should be passing the correct PIP info for OTA stations. If they aren't then peple should complain to get the cable company to correct it. If Tivo updated the guide info then at least then most people could get their OTA's from cable sans paying for the card.

But thinking aout it they seemed to mess up when WHYY in Philly moved OTA RF channels but maintained their 12-1 pip info. So perhaps they dont currently lock onto PIP data and instead are looking at the RF assingments? So looking at PIP for QAM would be a whole new front and be a major undertaking?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

The Tivo is looking for the cable company to identify the channel as a cable channel (i.e., 707) not like the OTA channel. That's how they generate the programming data.

Until somebody who _really_ knows says otherwise, I'm betting that the Tivo ignors any PSIP data that may remain in the data stream, and the cable company is identifying the stream as 5.1 even though they assign it a different channel for cable box and cablecard purposes. It wouldn't surprise me that PSIP data is left in there by accident, by laziness, or by requirement. They may actually do it on purpose, but I wouldn't expect the original software design for the S3 to go looking for it. If the S3 depended on it and it wasn't there, we'd all be sqawking about how Tivo should have programmed around it.

Now Tivo could download programming data for 5.1 via cable, but then you'd might have several different permutations to answer for. Not necessarily trivial, and could take enough time for to cause them to punt and wait for the second half to go for the touchdown.

If all cable systems pass the PSIP (doubtful in my mind, even if required by the FCC) and all cable systems assigned the PSIP channel as the cable channel number (which we know is not true), then this might have an easy fix. 

If a capability was not designed into a system from day one, simple additions can require major rewrites and testing.

And remember, Joe Six-pack may be easily confused by channel numbers like 5.1.


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

Alright...Help explain this to a very confused simple minded soul....

I set my new S3 up with no cards installed (the cards are scheduled for install tomorrow) and ran the channel scan. It found all the encrypted digital channels but obviously can't display them. However, it also found the local HD channels on channels 901-905 as well as the music channels. However there is no guide info for these channels. Is there something that I can do to get the TIVO to pick up the guide info for these channels so I can use season pass, etc.? The 901-905 is the published channel lineup for the local HD channels and the same channel that you get them on if you use their HD STB.

I am just curious, because if I could use Season Pass to record those local HD channels then I might could live with only one cablecard installed and save myself $12 a month.

Excuse my ignorance, but is this possible or am I just wishful thinking?


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## russwong (Sep 17, 2002)

Yes, that is the problem. You can not map those channels to guide data channels. You can only do manual recordings, hence the reason for some people not to go to the S3 route.



eluckie said:


> Alright...Help explain this to a very confused simple minded soul....
> 
> I set my new S3 up with no cards installed (the cards are scheduled for install tomorrow) and ran the channel scan. It found all the encrypted digital channels but obviously can't display them. However, it also found the local HD channels on channels 901-905 as well as the music channels. However there is no guide info for these channels. Is there something that I can do to get the TIVO to pick up the guide info for these channels so I can use season pass, etc.? The 901-905 is the published channel lineup for the local HD channels and the same channel that you get them on if you use their HD STB.
> 
> ...


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

eluckie said:


> The 901-905 is the published channel lineup for the local HD channels and the same channel that you get them on if you use their HD STB.


 If that's really the case then if you are able to use digital cable lineup for listings it should work. So the trick would be during guided setup when it asks if you are using cablecards you have to say yes (even though you are not) and assuming that works then you should get guide listings for all digital channels. Currently I suspect during guided setup you specified no cablecards and hence only have analog cable guide which is why channels 901-905 don't have guide data.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

SOME people have said (though I don't remember verification from others) that if you set it up with two cable cards, you can then later use it with only one cablecard -- for these unencrypted channels..

but this whole thread is the issue -- using season passes and such for unencrypted digital channels without cablecards.


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

moyekj said:


> I suspect during guided setup you specified no cablecards and hence only have analog cable guide which is why channels 901-905 don't have guide data.


You would be correct in that suspicion. That makes sense. Oh well, I probably won't monkey with that right now since they are installing the cards tomorrow, but I will keep that in mind if I go the other route later on. Much appreciated!!


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Your cable company must be adding their own PSIP information to the stream which is providing the mapping the Tivo needs. The normal case is for cable companies to pass through PSIP from the original OTA broadcast through in which case channels map to the OTA channel number, and in many cases the cable companies strip out PSIP while multiplexing. It could well be that your cable company is not re-broadcasting OTA but instead is receiving those HD channels from alternate sources with customized PSIP. Consider yourself lucky as that definately is not the norm and I don't see what the incentive is for your cable company to do this.


No, that is not how it happened.

The first month I did not have any guide data for those QAM channels. I filed a Lineup Error report with Tivo (on their website) and someone from Tivo called me at home to ask more questions about it. She (the Tivo rep) said that they would contact the local cable co for confirmation of the channel mapping and also to confirm that these channels *should be accessible without a cablecard*. Tivo lineup specialist also said that only if the cable co confirmed the details (what channel and that it would be availble w/o cable card) would Tivo add the guide data.

Five days later guide data showed up.

I seriously doubt that someone in the cable co changed the PSIP startegy due to a call from a Tivo lineup specialist. I suspect that Tivio simply executed on what they said they would do - make the call, talk to the cable co, and then map the data.

I agree it should always work this way, but I give credit for the result to Tivo following up on my lineup submission, not on cable co getting spontaneously generous.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

eluckie said:


> I am just curious, because if I could use Season Pass to record those local HD channels then I might could live with only one cablecard installed and save myself $12 a month.


You're being charged $12 for the second card? How about the first one?


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

c3 said:


> You're being charged $12 for the second card? How about the first one?


$12 per card!! That is in addition to my TV which I also am paying for. The local cable company that I use (Knology) charges $9.95 per card for HD channels and $1.95 per card rental for a total of $11.90 per card. They used to also charge a $6.95 per card Digital Outlet fee, but they have graciously dropped that in response to customers complaints.

We also have Charter Cable in town so I might need to check their charges. I just hate to change because of I have been with Knology for over 10 years.


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## TromboneKenny (Mar 28, 2003)

eluckie said:


> I set my new S3 up with no cards installed (the cards are scheduled for install tomorrow) and ran the channel scan. It found all the encrypted digital channels but obviously can't display them. However, it also found the local HD channels on channels 901-905 as well as the music channels. However there is no guide info for these channels. Is there something that I can do to get the TIVO to pick up the guide info for these channels so I can use season pass, etc.? The 901-905 is the published channel lineup for the local HD channels and the same channel that you get them on if you use their HD STB.


This whole thread is an example that shows how fragile and crucial the channel mapping is to the TiVo service. Getting a digital channel, and being able to tune to it isn't enough. If TiVo doesn't have the guide programming, you can't really use it.

It also shows that as the ways to get channel lineups diversifies (and varies depending on provider and options,) TiVo really needs to make that guide service more flexible. After all, it's what we're paying for with the service costs -- we should be able to use it effectively. They shouldn't try to solve every provider's quirks -- they should make the system more accepting of them. What worked in the standard cable/satellite industries a few years ago doesn't work with digital cable and OTA.

Your case is another example of one way things are hardcoded. Can you do a guided setup for digital cable channels without cablecards? From my experience, I don't think you can. That's too bad. You're getting channel 901, TiVo sees 901, you know that 901 is in the guide data (from zap2it.com.) They should let you bring all the digital channels into your channel list, even without the cable cards, and let you add/remove them to match your setup, without requiring the cards.

That scenario seems like an easier fix than some of the manual mapping discussed here. If I were you, I'd write this scenario up and send it to TiVo as an RFE.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

eluckie said:


> $12 per card!! That is in addition to my TV which I also am paying for. The local cable company that I use (Knology) charges $9.95 per card for HD channels and $1.95 per card rental for a total of $11.90 per card. They used to also charge a $6.95 per card Digital Outlet fee, but they have graciously dropped that in response to customers complaints.


Well, that's simply ridiculous. If you only want unencrypted channels, you can run guided setup with two cards and then return one card. I have not run guided setup with one card myself, but based on what other people have said, TiVo disables one tuner in that case.


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

c3 said:


> Well, that's simply ridiculous. If you only want unencrypted channels, you can run guided setup with two cards and then return one card. I have not run guided setup with one card myself, but based on what other people have said, TiVo disables one tuner in that case.


I agree that is ridiculous. I would be content to just have one card if I could use the other tuner to get my local HD channels off the regular cable. I will obviously want to record some encrypted channels, but my experience is that most of what I will record will be on the local networks HD broadcast.

So can I just eject one of these cablecards and return it in a week or so if I want and still be able to get the local HD channels in the Guide info? That would be great, I guess I will just be a little scared to try it if things are going good with both cards installed.

Any thoughts on whether I should be able to do that?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

If you want ANY encrypted content, you have to keep both cards. There is no way to set up different channel lists for each tuner. The one card setup works if you want ONLY unencrypted channels.


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## TromboneKenny (Mar 28, 2003)

eluckie said:


> So can I just eject one of these cablecards and return it in a week or so if I want and still be able to get the local HD channels in the Guide info? That would be great, I guess I will just be a little scared to try it if things are going good with both cards installed. Any thoughts on whether I should be able to do that?


I don't think the cablecard associations are that fragile. Once they're going, try popping the top one out and see what your recording options are. I might even try taking both out (remember/label which was top/bottom) and seeing if you can access your 901-905 channels without them, etc. Then decide if you want to take anything back. (Oh, and report back here what worked in what scenario.)


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

c3 said:


> If you want ANY encrypted content, you have to keep both cards. There is no way to set up different channel lists for each tuner. The one card setup works if you want ONLY unencrypted channels.


Okay...That makes sense. I will want to have access to the encrypted content so I guess I will be stuck with the additional monthly charges. I hope maybe Knology Cable will rethink their pricing as more customers like myself come on board.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

c3 said:


> Well, that's simply ridiculous. If you only want unencrypted channels, you can run guided setup with two cards and then return one card. I have not run guided setup with one card myself, but based on what other people have said, TiVo disables one tuner in that case.


But it disables one tuner


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

TromboneKenny said:


> I don't think the cablecard associations are that fragile. Once they're going, try popping the top one out and see what your recording options are. I might even try taking both out (remember/label which was top/bottom) and seeing if you can access your 901-905 channels without them, etc. Then decide if you want to take anything back. (Oh, and report back here what worked in what scenario.)


Taking out both cards won't work. Taking out one card won't work if you subscribe to encrypted channels because TiVo picks a random tuner for recording. If it picks one without CableCard for an encrypted program, you get nothing.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

ZildjianKX said:


> But it disables one tuner


No, it doesn't if you don't run guided setup again.


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## ZildjianKX (Jun 11, 2004)

c3 said:


> No, it doesn't if you don't run guided setup again.


Really? Everywhere I've read says that a TiVo with one cable card disables the 2nd tuner. So if you put in two, take one out and don't run the guided setup again then you're fine?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

ZildjianKX said:


> So if you put in two, take one out and don't run the guided setup again then you're fine?


If you don't have any encrypted channels, yes.


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

eluckie said:


> $12 per card!! That is in addition to my TV which I also am paying for. The local cable company that I use (Knology) charges $9.95 per card for HD channels and $1.95 per card rental for a total of $11.90 per card. They used to also charge a $6.95 per card Digital Outlet fee, but they have graciously dropped that in response to customers complaints.
> 
> We also have Charter Cable in town so I might need to check their charges. I just hate to change because of I have been with Knology for over 10 years.


WOW!! I would definitely check with Charter. I am using them and there is a $1.50 charge per card total. I pay my package price, one fee of 6.95 for HD for the entire house, and no extra digital outlet charges at all.

So my total charges for 4 cable cards is $6.00/month.


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## entropy (Apr 1, 2002)

eluckie said:


> $12 per card!! ... (Knology) charges $9.95 per card for HD channels and $1.95 per card rental for a total of $11.90 per card. They used to also charge a $6.95 per card Digital Outlet fee, but they have graciously dropped that in response to customers complaints. We also have Charter Cable in town so I might need to check their charges. I just hate to change because of I have been with Knology for over 10 years.


Graciously? This is highway robbery. You (unlike most people) apparently have a choice, and if Charter can even match Knology's prices I'd dump Knology and tell them exactly why. "I'm cancelling my service after 10 years because you people are highway robbers. Good riddance."

We have RCN. They charge $1.50 per card, including HD and digital overlay of all the other channels, and waived all the installation fees, because, I guess, they want our money enough to actually work for it.

~ Kiran <[email protected]>


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

I DO believe he was being sarcastic when he called it gracious, but he DID leave out the


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Question for the group:

I'm running OTA on the ATSC tuner and analog cable on the NTSC in. I did a channel scan at initial setup. I am not seeing any QAM channels, but I know they are there, because I've used the QAM tuner on several different TVs. I'm on Cox, and they pass all the locals on QAM unencrypted. Cox maps them to match the local OTA: thus, NBC is 4-1, Fox is 5-1, etc, just as they are on the OTA tuner.

If the Tivo is seeing the QAM channels, should I not have multiple 4-1, 5-1, etc, entries?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

I would think so, but I'd keep in mind that QAM tuners have two parts, the hardware (which may or may not be relatively standard - say only 2 or 3 different chip sets) and the software (which varies all over the map).


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Revolutionary said:


> Question for the group:
> 
> I'm running OTA on the ATSC tuner and analog cable on the NTSC in. I did a channel scan at initial setup. I am not seeing any QAM channels, but I know they are there, because I've used the QAM tuner on several different TVs. I'm on Cox, and they pass all the locals on QAM unencrypted. Cox maps them to match the local OTA: thus, NBC is 4-1, Fox is 5-1, etc, just as they are on the OTA tuner.
> 
> If the Tivo is seeing the QAM channels, should I not have multiple 4-1, 5-1, etc, entries?


TiVo may do a poorer job than your TV's QAM tuner in mapping the channels.

I'd try looking for them on their actual frequencies (88.1 or some crazy, meaningless number). Check in the AVS forum, you may find someone from your area who knows the number already.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't think the TiVo does ANY mapping of QAM channels without a CableCARD... no matter what data is transmitted with them. So even though your Cable Company might be sending data that says "make this 4-1", if they're actually sending it along 116-1, the TiVo will only see it on 116-1


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

TydalForce said:


> I don't think the TiVo does ANY mapping of QAM channels without a CableCARD... no matter what data is transmitted with them. So even though your Cable Company might be sending data that says "make this 4-1", if they're actually sending it along 116-1, the TiVo will only see it on 116-1


It does. Out of the 6 local HD channels, 2 were mapped by TiVo, and 4 were not. Exactly the same result as my Sony HDTV and another HDTV I had tried.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Let me make it more clear. There are no cable-source digital channels in my channel list after running the channel scan.

??


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Revolutionary said:


> Let me make it more clear. There are no cable-source digital channels in my channel list after running the channel scan.
> 
> ??


Post your region, provider. Oh, wait - Cox.
Also, check on the AVSForums thread about the DC Metro area to confirm your cableco DOES broadcast them unencrypted! You may have to trace the link back tot he OLD version of that thread (recently retired) ands earch there (9000 posts!)


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Revolutionary said:


> Let me make it more clear. There are no cable-source digital channels in my channel list after running the channel scan.


 Yes, back when I had no CableCards my S3 did not pick up any of the clear QAM channels either with a scan. I happened to know what the RF channel numbers were already which helped. So, for example I knew ABCHD was on RF 99, so I manually tuned to 99-1 with the remote and then saw that the clear QAM channels on 99 (there are 3 of them) showed up in my Channel List and in the guide as 99-XX. In a couple of cases after manually tuning them to the RF frequency Tivo then mapped them to the friendly OTA numbers but the rest had no PSIP information and were not mapped at all.
If you can't find a published list in AVS forums you could always try the hard way manually tuning each RF channel one by one starting at 73 or so. So, for example, tune to 73-1 and see if anything shows up, then repeat all the way up to 125-1. NOTE: If your headend is using 860MHz bandwidth then it's possible they are at RF channels > 125 as well, so keep going beyond 125 if you don't find them all still.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

ashu said:


> Post your region, provider. Oh, wait - Cox.
> Also, check on the AVSForums thread about the DC Metro area to confirm your cableco DOES broadcast them unencrypted! You may have to trace the link back tot he OLD version of that thread (recently retired) ands earch there (9000 posts!)


Stated in first post: I have tuned QAM clear using several other tuners on several sets many, many times. I know they are there. Tivo doesn't see them.

Not sure this is worth the hassle. Only want it for CW, since OTA reception on that one is spotty.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I wonder, are you going through any different line to get to your TiVo? 

For example, if I run my cable line through my VCR... even though the VCR is off, it drops the digital stuff.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

No, not going through "any different line," but I did figure out the problem.

I've got a 4-way splitter/signal booster back there that was somehow gumming up the works.

Its the same configuration I've always used, and always got the QAM channels to my TV's tuner. But the Tivo tuner is a bit more tempermental, apparently. I tried a reboot and scan, still no dice. So I switched to another lead off the splitter (I've got one spare right now). Did a scan and bingo, there they were. 

Yes, the splitter is digital cable compatible -- as I said, its always worked before. For some reason, though, the QAM data wasn't making it through that particular lead in a manner that the Tivo could understand. 

Come to think of it, that particular lead has always been Tivo dedicated (Series2 previously) and has never been into the TV, so perhaps that lead wouldn't have worked for the TV QAM tuners, either.

I no longer have the documentation for the splitter, but I suspect that only 1 or 2 of the 4 leads is digital cable compatible. Perhaps the booster can't compensate enough if the digital signal gets split more than twice?

Anyway, all is good now and my CW recordings are set manually off the QAM tuner.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I have a 3-way splitter in the mix in my cable closet (heater room) that the cable company put in when the tech was fixing up some cable modem problems we had a couple years back. 

I noticed the other day that the 3 outputs were labeled differently. 2 say -7db and one says -3db (or -2db, I don't remember). I can't say I know what that means, but they're different somehow. Maybe you've got something similar?

FWIW, my -7db goes to the cable modem, and the -3db goes off to other splitters to feed the rest of the house -- including up to the TV and TiVo where I can get the QAM channels


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

They signify the loss per output. The -3.5dB one should be the one to your cable modem, for better speeds/reliability, and the others should go to your TV etc. Of course, if your signal strength is marginal and the TiVo/TV loses channels with a further 3.5dB drop, then switch back to the status quo.


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

ashu said:


> They signify the loss per output. The -3.5dB one should be the one to your cable modem, for better speeds/reliability, and the others should go to your TV etc. Of course, if your signal strength is marginal and the TiVo/TV loses channels with a further 3.5dB drop, then switch back to the status quo.


While -3.5db could be better for the CM than -7db, since he said that the -3.5db _"currently feeds other splitters"_ I'd leave it alone for now unless his CM is having a problem.

-Kyle


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Ah! Hey thanks for the info and insight
! 
There's about 100 miles of coax running through this old house feeding a bunch of TVs. If the -3.5db is better signal, it's probably best off being the one to feed the web. 

The 3rd -7dB connector has nothing on it, and I recently found a few coax terminators and stuck one on that plug. I don't know why they gave us a 3-way splitter when they only plugged 2 things into it...


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

ashu said:


> They signify the loss per output. The -3.5dB one should be the one to your cable modem, for better speeds/reliability, and the others should go to your TV etc. Of course, if your signal strength is marginal and the TiVo/TV loses channels with a further 3.5dB drop, then switch back to the status quo.


The cable modem needs less signal than a tv, so that is why the -7dB output was used there. Similarly, the -3dB output would provide more signal and would be appropriate for the longest cable tv run, where the other -7 dB output would be available for a shorter cable tv run.

I use a Channel Vision tap like this one to maximize the signal to my tv's.

From AVS Forum :



> As hometheaterguy stated, tap off the main to your modem first. This allows more signal strength to your tvs while providing stable modem performance. To obtain a rough analog signal strength level, connect directly to your modem. This will give the digital power level which are set 6 to 12 dB lower as it is a constant and does not fluctuate like analog.


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

TydalForce said:


> Ah! Hey thanks for the info and insight
> !
> There's about 100 miles of coax running through this old house feeding a bunch of TVs. If the -3.5db is better signal, it's probably best off being the one to feed the web.
> 
> The 3rd -7dB connector has nothing on it, and I recently found a few coax terminators and stuck one on that plug. I don't know why they gave us a 3-way splitter when they only plugged 2 things into it...


If you're only using 2 outputs from the splitter, then I'd suggest replacing it with a decent 2 way splitter that will give you 2 -3.5db outputs.

For those that like to learn:

The reason a 3 way is -7, -7, and -3.5, is that it really is


```
IN
      |
  +---+---+
-3.5    -3.5
  |       |
  |   +---+---+
  | -3.5    -3.5
  |   |       |
```
The 2 levels of -3.5 add up to -7. It's no different than hanging one 2 way splitter off another.

Likewise a 4 way splitter will give you -7 on all four outputs, because internaly it's really 3 2-way splitters.

-Kyle


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Revolutionary said:


> No, not going through "any different line," but I did figure out the problem.
> 
> I've got a 4-way splitter/signal booster back there that was somehow gumming up the works.
> 
> ...


Weird. You're the only other one I've found that may have had my problem. I knew from others in my area that my cable co fed the local HD's unencrypted. But multiple TVs and TiVos could NOT find them. Problem was somewhere in my house.

After signing up for digital cable and getting VOD, magically it worked. However, the cable guy changed some hardware on the "box" on the side of the house and some new cables/splitters in the basement.

I know my splitter wasn't the issue because it worked with that splitter after the cable guy left. But now I bet one of the other POS splitters hanging from the ceiling in the basement wasn't gumming things up.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

So if I've got two -7dB outputs, but one of them is capped with a terminator, is the other one getting the full -3.5dB?


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Weird. You're the only other one I've found that may have had my problem. I knew from others in my area that my cable co fed the local HD's unencrypted. But multiple TVs and TiVos could NOT find them. Problem was somewhere in my house.
> 
> After signing up for digital cable and getting VOD, magically it worked. However, the cable guy changed some hardware on the "box" on the side of the house and some new cables/splitters in the basement.
> 
> I know my splitter wasn't the issue because it worked with that splitter after the cable guy left. But now I bet one of the other POS splitters hanging from the ceiling in the basement wasn't gumming things up.


I'm pretty sure when I get CableCARDs I'm going to have to have the Comcast come out to clean something up. I used to get dropped MPEG frames and 'unavailable channels' from time to time on their digital STBs so...

I plugged my S3 in last night for the first time, and guided setup didn't find and digital channels, but the first 'channel scan' I did after that found 200 or so. I haven't had a chance to go through them yet, so it looks like none of them have the PSIP data to map them correctly, and I'll have to get the CableCARDs installed.

Tonight I'm going to try going through them all to see if I can actually get a picture on any of them. The random few I tried last night only gave me a black screen.

I still beleive that the correct way to fix this is for the cable company to provide the data in the stream. I'll have to see who I need to complain about this to.

-Kyle


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

TydalForce said:


> So if I've got two -7dB outputs, but one of them is capped with a terminator, is the other one getting the full -3.5dB?


No. The signal loss happens where the 'wire' goes 2 different ways. It's lost whether there is a device or a terminator on the port.

The terminator is good because it stops the signal from 'reflecting' or 'bouncing' off the end of the wire, and coming back up the other wires as a delayed signal causing interference. It also stops that port from acting like an antenna and pulling in OTA signal or noise onto the wire.

-Kyle


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Thanks for the clarifications, Kyle - I knew I was barely scratching the surface!


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm not having any signal problems, so I think I'll leave it as-is.

Thanks everybody for the awesome insight and knowledge! I love this place!


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Question:

If I'm getting a QAM channel that matches the OTA channel (50.1), AND the Tivo correctly identifies it (WDCW-DT), is there any reason that it shouldn't have guide data?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Revolutionary said:


> Question:
> 
> If I'm getting a QAM channel that matches the OTA channel (50.1), AND the Tivo correctly identifies it (WDCW-DT), is there any reason that it shouldn't have guide data?


From the software point of view, OTA 50.1 and cable 50.1 are still different channels. There is no guide data for cable 50.1.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

c3 said:


> From the software point of view, OTA 50.1 and cable 50.1 are still different channels. There is no guide data for cable 50.1.


I was actually referring to the PSIP controversy. The PSIP data appears to be there. Thus, is there any technical limitation that prevents Tivo from mapping it (ie, if I were to submit a lineup correction)?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

I know about PSIP. That's how it's mapped to 50.1. It's still not what your cable company publishes as its lineup. The technical limitation is whether TiVo will support it in a future software release, just like manual QAM mapping. Trying to submit these channels as "lineup corrections" is not the right way to do it.


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

kjmcdonald said:


> The right solution to this problem is for your cable company to fix it's end. Not Tivo.
> 
> Anything Tivo could do would be a Kludge, doing lots of extra work to work around a problem in how the system is supposed to work.
> 
> ...


Hmm. Replying to myself probably isn't a good thing.

When I wrote that, I was thinking that at least some cable companies are doing it right, and that at least some S3 owners are getting the guide to match up to the unencrypted digital channels they receive. And getting recordings to work without cablecards?

Is this true? Are some of the S3 owners able to make this work?

I've seen other posts in other threads that have said it can't work at all without cablecards, even if the PSIP is passed along by the CableCo?

-Kyle


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

kjmcdonald said:


> ...
> Eventually the cable companies will get this all working. And when they do, the work that Tivo might do to fix this, will be rendered useless and obsolete. It will end up being a waste of effort.


I email Time Warner Cable in SC of poroblems in Myrtle Beach. They have neither responded nor corrected anything.

I personally think that some systems are set up right, some partially right, and others only enough to make them work with cable boxes. San cablecards, some S3's apparently get the channel assignments to make the guide work from the get go, some get nothing, and some get channels designated 7-1, which correspond with OTA channel designations but doesn't make the channel guide info.

Several have assumed that some cable companies passed the PSIP data and their S3 is picking it up. I don't know if the cable companies can, I don't know if they do, and I don't know that the S3 is smart enough to pick the PSIP data out of a cable data stream.

I have written to Congress about the FCC's lack of response in this area, but I don't know that it will make a difference.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

Has anyone gotten the new S3 software (8.1) and can tell us if there is now a manual QAM channel mapping feature? A lot of people are waiting for this feature and hoping it's in 8.1.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

No, 8.1 doesn't have any new features I'm interested in other than bug fixes by the looks of it.
* TivoCast - don't care
* Extend Live - this is OK, nothing earth shattering and catching up to other DVR software that has done it for years
* KidZone - don't care
* Wireless Security - don't care (already have my own WPA wireless bridge solution)
* Product Watch - just what we need, more ads!
* Recently Deleted Folder - don't care, in fact this could be annoying if one cannot hide that folder
* Bug fixes - always a good thing of course

Real features still missing I hope for one day: MRV, TTG, eSATA, HD tags for wishlists, clear QAM mapping


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Saxion said:


> Has anyone gotten the new S3 software (8.1) and can tell us if there is now a manual QAM channel mapping feature? A lot of people are waiting for this feature and hoping it's in 8.1.


Who at TiVo ever said there would be QAM Channel Mapping without a CC, I don't think it will ever happen. I just got a new Series 3, CC going in Wed but I found CBS HD on 89-2 and my HDTV has CBS HD on 89-1 so even that is not consistent. Does each QAM tuner have its own definitions for the digital channels ?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

lessd said:


> Who at TiVo ever said there would be QAM Channel Mapping without a CC, I don't think it will ever happen.


I can't provide a link, but I remember someone official saying that they would look into the idea.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lessd said:


> Who at TiVo ever said there would be QAM Channel Mapping without a CC, I don't think it will ever happen. I just got a new Series 3, CC going in Wed but I found CBS HD on 89-2 and my HDTV has CBS HD on 89-1 so even that is not consistent. Does each QAM tuner have its own definitions for the digital channels ?


 I don't think anyone from Tivo directly mentioned they are looking at adding clear QAM support, but from megazone's FAQ :


megazone said:


> *Does the S3 support unencrypted digital cable channels, aka QAM in-the-clear, without a CableCARD?*
> Partially. Clear QAM channels can be tuned directly by entering the correct channel number. Recordings can be scheduled by time and channel. There is no guide data for digital cable channels without CableCARD, and hence no Season Passes or Wish Lists are possible. There is currently no way to manually map channels. TiVo is looking into the possibility to provide mapping in the future.


And yes, I have found different clear QAM tuners assign sub-channel numbers differently from the same source.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> I can't provide a link, but I remember someone official saying that they would look into the idea.


Look into it means you may see something eventually, not next quarter.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

QAM minor channel numbering _should_ be consistent and unambiguous, but there's nothing to stop a particular implementation from implementing it incorrectly. At any rate, we have verified that TiVo _does_ enumerate minor channel numbers correctly, and of course minor channel numbering is consistent within the scope of a single tuner like a TiVo.

Most people feel that some way of optionally and manually specifying the mapping from QAM channel number to Cable channel number would be the best option. For those rare cases where a particular cable company frequently shuffles its QAM frequencies or subchannels, the only option will only ever be CableCards. However, for the vast majority of cable customers whose QAM assignments change very rarely, manual mapping is a perfectly reasonable solution.

Keep in mind that TiVo is not the first device to tackle this problem. It has already been solved on similar devices by allowing the user to optionally and manually map the channels.


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

To add to what Saxion says ... the PSIP data should contain the real info so a channel that moved could still be found. I do believe that PSIP is required to be passed on by the CableCo.

Of all the items ... I only care about QAM re-map. all are a non-starter (4th TiVo and no other one in my house supports MRV, TiVo-to-go, etc.)

# Matt


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

mattn2 said:


> I do believe that PSIP is required to be passed on by the CableCo.


In my area, only 2 of the 6 local HD channels have the proper PSIP data, so that's not really useful.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

mattn2 said:


> the PSIP data should contain the real info so a channel that moved could still be found.


The problem with PSIP is two-fold:

1) It is not required to be there. The broadcaster can insert the PSIP data into the stream at various points in the broadcast chain. If the Cable feed is tapped off before PSIP is included, it won't be present.

2) PSIP only maps to the over-the-air (OTA) channel number, not the cable channel number. The TiVo keeps OTA and Cable channels completely separate. An "OTA channel" received on a "Cable input" won't make sense to TiVo and won't be mapped correctly (this is a TiVo limitation and could be fixed).


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

In the 8.1 update thread ... TiVo Pony states that there is no QAM re-mapping in this update 

# Matt


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

mattn2 said:


> In the 8.1 update thread ... TiVo Pony states that there is no QAM re-mapping in this update


Major bummer. Thanks for asking him Matt!

Seems to me TiVo is missing a significant market segment: Existing HDTV owners who have built-in QAM tuners in their set, and who have decided that the network majors comprise enough HD for them and who aren't willing to pay more to their cable companies for any sort of digital cable. Such a consumer almost certainly won't have any HD DVR solution today, so there isn't any incumbent to replace. They simply want to be able to record the HD that they are watching right now, today, by tuning into unencrypted QAM channels. There is no option today for such a consumer: they can't get an HD DVR from their cable company without upgrading to digital cable, and the S3 is seriously broken for them because of the lack of guide data/Season Pass/Wishlist/etc.

TiVo could serve a very large market of consumers who would be a captive audience (no other options), if only they would fix this.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

I'm not sure how significant that market really is. People who have spent a lot of money for HDTV and S3 probably subscribe to digital cable as well. I have just limited basic, but I can also get two CableCards from Comcast for only $1.50/month.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

As has been discussed ad nauseum, the cost of two CableCards on top of Limited Basic cable can vary dramatically. Cox San Diego told me I'd have to upgrade to the digital tier, incurring several charges.

You can count me in that group of consumers, and I'll let the number of posters in this thread speak for itself.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Saxion said:


> As has been discussed ad nauseum, the cost of two CableCards on top of Limited Basic cable can vary dramatically. Cox San Diego told me I'd have to upgrade to the digital tier, incurring several charges.


I was being charged $20 more a month for 2 CCs. I jaw-dropped when I saw my bill. Fortunately it was a screw up on the cable company's part or maybe it wasn't, but in either case they lowered the bill when I called.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Saxion said:


> As has been discussed ad nauseum, the cost of two CableCards on top of Limited Basic cable can vary dramatically. Cox San Diego told me I'd have to upgrade to the digital tier, incurring several charges.
> 
> You can count me in that group of consumers, and I'll let the number of posters in this thread speak for itself.


The lack of clear QAM mapping and the initial price point have kept me from getting an S3.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Given that digital channel assignments are supposedly available from the cable system's inherent digital stream (they are not always there, but that's a different story) and that the S3 gets its scheduling info direct from Tivo, I'd be suprised to find that Tivo would spend any effort trying to get any PSIP info out of the cable's data strream.

Others have said or implied that, per the FCC, the OTA data stream is to be passed unmodified, implying to me that the PSIP data should be left in. Even if it's required and even if it it's actually passed (which is another variable) why would Tivo want more data that it would have to resolve with it's expected sources of information?

The channel mapping scheme should be inherent in the digital design of the cable system, not the Tivo. This affects not only S3's, but any clear QAM tuner. In fact, to maintain acccess to all OTA broadcasts, the cable company should not be able to do anything to disturb a customer's ability to receiver OTA channels without advance notice. If would be in their best interest to avoid reassigning any clear QAM channels, so they don't have to roll a bunch of trucks to have their techs go to customers' homes and manually rescan digital channels on clear QAM tuners.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

I had thought that PSIP was just OTA, but I guess not.

CFR 76.640(b)(1)(iv)
For each digital transport stream that includes one or more services carried in-the-clear, such transport stream shall include virtual channel data in-band in the form of ATSC A/65B: ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B) (incorporated by reference, see §76.602), when available from the content provider. With respect to in-band transport:

(A) The data shall, at minimum, describe services carried within the transport stream carrying the PSIP data itself;

(B) PSIP data describing a twelve-hour time period shall be carried for each service in the transport stream. This twelve-hour period corresponds to delivery of the following event information tables: EIT0, 1, 2 and 3;

(C) The format of event information data format shall conform to ATSC A/65B: ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B) (incorporated by reference, see §76.602);

(D) Each channel shall be identified by a one- or two-part channel number and a textual channel name; and

(E) The total bandwidth for PSIP data may be limited by the cable system to 80 kbps for a 27 Mbits multiplex and 115 kbps for a 38.8 Mbits multiplex.

Edit: ATSC A/65B is now ATSC A/65C


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

FYI - none of my cable company HD locals carry any PSIP information. Apparently the cable equipment for those is setup to pass through PSIP as required by FCC regulations, however their sources (which apparently are not obtained directly over the air) do not contain the data to begin with. The OTA HD transmissions of course do have the data.

In fact none of the clear QAM channels from my cable company (which includes a bunch of digital simulcast of locals) contain any PSIP data.


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## Saxion (Sep 18, 2006)

vstone said:


> I had thought that PSIP was just OTA, but I guess not.


vstone, you are quoting ATSC regulations, which defines OTA broadcasting. Although there are allowances for PSIP over Cable (since it very well might be there, if included by the broadcaster), PSIP remains an ATSC/OTA broadcasting requirement. Not sure how the data rate limitation squares with the requirement that cable not molest the broadcaster's feed...


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Read closely and will see in my previous post (a quote from federal regs) the phrase that refers to the particular standard:

ATSC A/65B: ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and _CABLE_ (Revision B)"

There are cable PSIP requirments, but I don't have the time to study them enough to make sense of them. If you have enough time to study tyhe 150 page document, go look at:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf


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## jwbacher (Apr 27, 2006)

I am sure this is answered elsewhere, but any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I recently started having problems with my HD channels through the CableCards with TW. So thanks to your discussions, I added the OTA HD channels in there and I am recording from them until the TW people come out. So my question is if I remove the cablecards altogether, will I still be able to use 2 tuners? I.e., can I still record 2 channels at once? Thanks for your responses.


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

Yes, just be sure you take both of them out. You also might want to go through guided setup again so your searches for programming don't include the CableCARD mapped channels. Yes, after TW comes out, you will have to go through GS again so it is entirely up to you on whether it is worth your effort or not.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

Revolutionary said:


> I was actually referring to the PSIP controversy. The PSIP data appears to be there. Thus, is there any technical limitation that prevents Tivo from mapping it (ie, if I were to submit a lineup correction)?


Use the Lineup Error to report the missing guide data to Tivo. They will contact the local cable operator to verify that the right channel is assigned and that it really is a clear QAM for all customers.

I did that here in Austin TX and I now have full guide data, on local clear QAM, no cablecards.

Took about 2 weeks.


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## jwbacher (Apr 27, 2006)

Deacon:
Thanks for the info. I was actually considering just giving the cards back to TW and go with basic cable and use OTA HD. I just wanted to make sure that without the cards, I can still record 2 programs at once. I get all of the networks OTA HD and they show up in the guide data without any mapping problem.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Scopeman said:


> Use the Lineup Error to report the missing guide data to Tivo. They will contact the local cable operator to verify that the right channel is assigned and that it really is a clear QAM for all customers.
> 
> I did that here in Austin TX and I now have full guide data, on local clear QAM, no cablecards.


How do I tell if the info is there? That is, are you saying that we can verify if the PSIP info is there?


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## routerman (Sep 16, 2006)

Scopeman said:


> Use the Lineup Error to report the missing guide data to Tivo. They will contact the local cable operator to verify that the right channel is assigned and that it really is a clear QAM for all customers.
> 
> I did that here in Austin TX and I now have full guide data, on local clear QAM, no cablecards.
> 
> Took about 2 weeks.


In many cable systems, the local operators have access to a local "QAM tuner" host channel map that allows the operator to assign local clear QAM signals to their corresponding cable channel positions. As QAM tuners become more prevalent, I see more cable systems making the effort to keep these maps updated to support these subscribers.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

mattack said:


> How do I tell if the info is there? That is, are you saying that we can verify if the PSIP info is there?


If your guide shows an accurate channel ID for the station (ex: 1541 KXAN-DT) then there is enough data for Tivo to call the cable co and ask if the guide data for the OTA KXAN-DT channel matches the clear QAM channel.

Once Tivo verifies that then I think it is Tivo, not a PSIP stream, that provides the guide data for the clear QAM channel.

I *LOVE* not having to pay for (and hassle with) CableCards.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

Scopeman said:


> Use the Lineup Error to report the missing guide data to Tivo. They will contact the local cable operator to verify that the right channel is assigned and that it really is a clear QAM for all customers.
> 
> I did that here in Austin TX and I now have full guide data, on local clear QAM, no cablecards.
> 
> Took about 2 weeks.


from Tivo:
We apologize but we are not able to provide guide data for antenna HD channels (ATSC) that are rebroadcast in an unencrypted manner, as your cable provider does not supply any data for those channels until they are remapped by a CableCARD. Although the Series3 DVR is able to tune these channels without CableCARDs, we are unable to list them in your current lineup.


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## frantishak (Dec 7, 2006)

Tried lineup error report here in San Francisco, CA. Got the following. 

We apologize but we are not able to provide guide data for antenna HD channels (ATSC) that are rebroadcast in an unencrypted manner, as your cable provider does not supply any data for those channels until they are remapped by a CableCARD. Although the Series3 DVR is able to tune these channels without CableCARDs, we are unable to list them in your current lineup.

How could it be that they are able to provide guide data in Austin, TX but are unable in SF? I know we do have PSIP data, as all the channels are properly remapped to their logical channel numbers (2-1, 5-1, ...)


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

frantishak said:


> Tried lineup error report here in San Francisco, CA. Got the following.
> 
> We apologize but we are not able to provide guide data for antenna HD channels (ATSC) that are rebroadcast in an unencrypted manner, as your cable provider does not supply any data for those channels until they are remapped by a CableCARD. Although the Series3 DVR is able to tune these channels without CableCARDs, we are unable to list them in your current lineup.
> 
> How could it be that they are able to provide guide data in Austin, TX but are unable in SF? I know we do have PSIP data, as all the channels are properly remapped to their logical channel numbers (2-1, 5-1, ...)


You could plead with your cable company to publish the QAM HD channels with Tribune. You'd have to find the right person to talk to though, since front line CSRs probably won't know what the hell you're talking about. If they plan on keeping these stations in a static location, they may just help you out.


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## mattn2 (Mar 23, 2001)

I have submitted a lineup change request here too. Got the same response. Maybe if we all do this, the QAM re-map feature will be moved higher on their list and above the cut line for the next release.

# Matt


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

mattn2 said:


> I have submitted a lineup change request here too. Got the same response. Maybe if we all do this, the QAM re-map feature will be moved higher on their list and above the cut line for the next release.


Or maybe they'll get annoyed and remove the page so people with legitimate channel issues won't be able to report them.


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## PeytonRE (Oct 23, 2006)

moyekj said:


> If that's really the case then if you are able to use digital cable lineup for listings it should work. So the trick would be during guided setup when it asks if you are using cablecards you have to say yes (even though you are not) and assuming that works then you should get guide listings for all digital channels. Currently I suspect during guided setup you specified no cablecards and hence only have analog cable guide which is why channels 901-905 don't have guide data.


Has anybody actually tried this to see if it works? It appears to be the same situation that I have, but I am reluctant to mess up my current configuration without more assurances.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

my last time through GS I told it I had cablecards, but I couldn't proceed with the cable card wizard since I don't actually have any... but it proceeded through with the rest. 

My digital cable stations are still on their unencrypted unmapped QAM frequencies and only show up after a channel scan. As an interesting bonus, my local Comcast has begun sending PSIP data down the line so I'm now getting the locals on their "broadcast channel" numbers.

No guide data for them though. My S3 recognizes that there's a channel "6-1" on cable, but doesn't know what it is.


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