# Game of Thrones 5/29/16 Blood of My Blood S6E06



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

So The Children saved Benjen the same way they created the white walkers. But he's not one. What is he?

No Sansa and Brienne this episode. Bummer. He scene with Littlefinger was chilling.

Margarey made a deal with the devil a little too soon?

Glad to see Arya reunited with needle. The other girl has been kicking her ass in training so will they fight or will Arya escape first?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

When Mace Tyrell showed up, all I could think of was how much he looks like Ferdinand Lyle from Penny Dreadful (the flamboyantly gay Egyptologist).

Except I suspect Ferdie would be better at leading a revolution... 

Nice to finally see Benjen again. So if you stab a White Walker in the heart with dragonglass blade, it becomes human again?

I'm not sure I buy Sam stealing the sword...yes, he was provoked, but it just seems to me he's better than that. I guess the writers must have a really important reason for him to have a Valyrian steel sword... 

Man, this season is moving like a rocket...stuff just keeps HAPPENING!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'm disappointed that Arya is seemingly going to bail out on the whole Faceless Man thing. 

Drogon has grown!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Robin said:


> Margarey made a deal with the devil a little too soon?


From her point of view, I don't think it is a deal with the devil. Or if it is, it is the lesser devil. Cersei and the Lannisters are her true enemy, and her alliance with the Sparrow weakens Cersei (and Jaime).

Jaime is not much of a Kingsguard if he did not know that Tommen was in the church (or that Tommen had been meeting with the Sparrow several times). Of course, some may say he already proved to be a poor Kingsguard when he became Kingslayer.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Even though I've defended the High Sparrow before (not his actions, but the fact that I didn't think he had a hidden agenda), I do have to question that given the events of this episode.

He was willing to compromise on the Walk of Shame in exchange for a public endorsement by the King. Without knowing their religious texts, it's hard to say whether or not a genuine follower would do that or only someone trying to play politics. But it does seem suspicious.

I am also doubtful that Margaery has truly converted. Either the High Sparrow made a deal with her to convince Tommen to go along with this, in which case he does have a hidden agenda, or Margaery thinks she can manipulate him. And even in the latter case, it's possible that the High Sparrow knows she is trying to manipulate him, and is allowing her to do so in order to further his agenda.

On the other hand, when Cersei found him, he did seem to be truly following his religion. I wonder if what he told Margaery about his past was only a half-truth. Perhaps he did truly turn away from wealth and power back then, but Cersei giving him a taste of it has turned him back toward the person he once was.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> So if you stab a White Walker in the heart with dragonglass blade, it becomes human again?


I think that only worked because he hadn't completely transformed, and the Children were able to use their magic before it was too late.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Jaime is not much of a Kingsguard if he did not know that Tommen was in the church (or that Tommen had been meeting with the Sparrow several times).


I don't even know why he was not only there, but leading the charge. I thought the whole point was for it to be a Tyrell-only action that didn't involve the Crown. Maybe the Tyrells insisted that he be there to ensure that it wasn't a setup, but it would have been nice for the writers to have included a scene mentioning that.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So if you stab a White Walker in the heart with dragonglass blade, it becomes human again?





BitbyBlit said:


> I think that only worked because he hadn't completely transformed, and the Children were able to use their magic before it was too late.


I would have expected Benjen to become a wight, not a White Walker. IIRC, we have only seen two White Walkers made -- one an infant who was touched by the Night King, causing the infant's eyes to turn blue. The other was the making of the Night King himself, when the Children of the Forest stabbed a piece of dragonglass into his chest.

So, if Benjen had an ice spear stabbed into his gut, I would expect him to die, or die and reanimate as a wight. Maybe the Children of the Forest found him just as he was about to die and they could not prevent his death, and maybe the White Walkers had put magic on him to make him become a wight after he died. So the Children stabbed him in the heart with the dragonglass while he was still alive, so he never became a wight but the wight magic (and/or nearness to death) prevented him from becoming a White Walker, and he became something else. Not White Walker, not wight, not exactly human.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

For book readers:



Spoiler



i wonder if this proves that cold hands is benjen


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

"I have to go. My father is waiting for me". 

Ouch


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> He was willing to compromise on the Walk of Shame in exchange for a public endorsement by the King. Without knowing their religious texts, it's hard to say whether or not a genuine follower would do that or only someone trying to play politics. But it does seem suspicious.


For some reason, it has never occurred to me that he was engaged in anything but a power grab. Guess I'm just cynical...


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> I am also doubtful that Margaery has truly converted. Either the High Sparrow made a deal with her to convince Tommen to go along with this, in which case he does have a hidden agenda, or Margaery thinks she can manipulate him. And even in the latter case, it's possible that the High Sparrow knows she is trying to manipulate him, and is allowing her to do so in order to further his agenda.


Yep. I never thought she'd converted.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> For some reason, it has never occurred to me that he was engaged in anything but a power grab. Guess I'm just cynical...


Same here.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure I buy Sam stealing the sword...yes, he was provoked, but it just seems to me he's better than that. I guess the writers must have a really important reason for him to have a Valyrian steel sword...


Chekhov's sword.


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure I buy Sam stealing the sword...yes, he was provoked, but it just seems to me he's better than that. I guess the writers must have a really important reason for him to have a Valyrian steel sword...


Actually, when they were still at the table I thought Sam was going to get up, take the sword down and kill his father.

Hard to believe the season is more than half over


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I think Martin has setup every Valyrian steel sword as a possible Chekhov's sword. We know about a lot of them, and only one will eventually kill the Night King (spoiler alert!). I'd put my money on Jon's.

How many do we know of?

Jon
Brienne
Tommen
Sam
the dagger?


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

The most significant part I saw with the Kingsguard is their new armor. Notice the breastplates now have the symbol of the new gods.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The Godsguard?

By the way, it strikes me that it wasn't as much of a win for the Sparrow as he would have liked. He was obviously going to pardon Margaery anyway, but now it looks like Mace and Jaime forced his hand.


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> For book readers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I assume this is one of the the things that the TV show is doing to simplify the plot. We will need to wait till winds of winter to find out.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Thank the gods that No One is going back to being Arya Stark and I hope she opens up a can of Whoop-Ass on the waif on her way out of town.

I hoped a little bit that Arya would tell lady Crane who she really was.

Margery switched sides a bit too suddenly but man, Tommen is an impressionable, cowardly idiot.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Hmmm, what if the waif kills Arya and for the rest of this show when we see Arya we'll just be seeing her face being worn by someone else?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Margery switched sides a bit too suddenly but man, Tommen is an impressionable, cowardly idiot.


On Margaery, I agree with those before who say she's playing the Sparrow (or trying to). On Tommen, yes. At least we have the satisfaction of knowing that if his siblings are any indication, he will die horribly by poison.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

RegBarc said:


> The most significant part I saw with the Kingsguard is their new armor. Notice the breastplates now have the symbol of the new gods.


How did Tommen go about commissioning new armor for the Kingsguard without Jaime or Cercei knowing about it? For that matter, how did he spend enough time at the Sept to be converted without them knowing?

Does this mean Sam isn't going to Oldtown to become a maester?

Pretty cool that during Bran's history flashes we saw Mad King Aegon ordering the city to be burned. What else of significance did we see in there?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Pretty cool that during Bran's history flashes we saw Mad King Aegon ordering the city to be burned. What else of significance did we see in there?


Not sure but I'm going to spend a lot of time with my slow motion button.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Now that the shows aren't following the book, stuff is really happening. Every week is so great. Martin really had some slow plays in place. Hodor, Benjen, it's so satisfied to see some of those things finally tied up.

Is it next Sunday yet?


----------



## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

I agree, I'm glad things are finally moving and paying off. But just a little, teensy part of me finds it jarring how the show has gone from crawling to seemingly sprinting.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Pretty sure Margaery is playing the High Sparrow. If you go back to the episode where she was allowed to see Loras, you can tell she was not convinced by the High Sparrow's BS.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> Pretty sure Margaery is playing the High Sparrow. If you go back to the episode where she was allowed to see Loras, you can tell she was not convinced by the High Sparrow's BS.


Right, and they showed exactly that scene during the "previously on" segment at the beginning of this episode.


----------



## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I wonder if Arya will join the acting troupe--become faceless that way. They did seem to spend a lot of time developing interesting characters there, and Richard E. Grant (the older male in the troupe) is a fairly famous actor.

At first, I couldn't believe that Sam was going to leave Gilly behind. It seemed a sure bet that she would be killed by the father. Glad he changed his mind. It was nice to see her all cleaned up.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Margery switched sides a bit too suddenly but man, Tommen is an impressionable, cowardly idiot.


So many plays in play...

Margaery seems to be playing the High Sparrow. But does he know that, and is he letting her think she's playing him, for his own purposes. And does Margaery _know _he knows, and is playing him playing her... you get the idea.

I think it's a given Tommen is not in on it. Margaery surely knows he can't be trusted, nor does he have the skills, to fool anyone. But she knows she can re-twist him later however she wants. After all, she has the power of {censored}.

This was a far more interesting plot direction than had they gone to violence. Now we still have everyone thinking they still have game, while the upcoming battle at Riverrun has the potential to be monstrous, certainly game-changing. Brienne headed there, Jaime headed there, the Blackfish back in power, and best of all, Lord Frey's imbecilic sons headed there.

One question: Do we know with what force Jaime is heading to Riverrun? Gold cloaks, city guards, Lannister army? And what about that great warrior & leader, Mace Tyrell, and the army of Highgarden? What will they do now that the showdown at the Great Sept is for naught?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Casa Tarley was pretty nice.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Benjen is back! Wow so even though I understand what's going on with him, why did this prevent him from letting the watch know he was alive? And how did he just happen to be where they were? It's like Brienne saving Sansa.

Dani gets the best scenes. The best effects and cinematography too. Her speeches are not unique but the way it's edited each time makes it so powerful. I was lowkey waiting for Drogon to light a few of the Dothraki up a bit by accident though. 

Can they kill Walter Frey off now so I can stop reliving the Red Wedding? 

Arya Arya Arya. I didn't think she was going to go through with it but I didn't think it was going to go like that. Can they let her kill that waif already. Her smug face makes me want to pay the many faced gods. Also the person that said she kills Arya and then we just see Arya as a nameless face. First how dare you. Second I don't think that would fly because Arya's too well known. The fact that she hasn't been recognized more is by luck or design of the gods/Jaqen. No?

Margaery is definitely playing the High Sparrow. I don't see it ending well for one of them or maybe she'll end up getting Tommen killed by accident. Ditto on the confusion of how Jaime wouldn't have known what was going on there before marching that army into the center of the city. I do wonder if they could have taken the sparrow's "army".

Sam needed to use that sword on his father. And his brother just sits continuing to eat during all this. At least his mother seemed to have some decency. I'm glad he didn't leave Gilly there but now where do they go??

And last but not least.......


Spoiler


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Tracy said:


> It was nice to see her all cleaned up.


She does look different all cleaned up:


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I was so ready for the high sparrow to get disposed of. I'm so tired of that guy and every single storyline that surrounds him. I'm hopeful Margaery has a plan, I don't believe her buying into his BS for a second. So wanted Jamie to just give Bronn that sack of gold and have the high sparrow assassinated. 

I found this episode to be pretty boring, all things considered. Yes, Benjen is back, but feels like Deus Ex Machina to me. Someone had to save Bran. We haven't seen Benjen in years, so let's pull him out of a hat. The whole Sam goes home thing was pretty predictable, though I am glad to see him make off with the sword. He'll put it to use rather than having it sit uselessly on the mantle.

Not sure where the Arya thing is going. I'm glad to see her retain her identity rather than become a nameless assassin. However, I also wanted her to pick up those skills. I'd like to think this is all some kind of test, and she somehow passed by not assassinating the innocent and nice actress. If she'd gone through with it, she wouldn't be the Arya I liked anymore.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Benjen is back! Wow so even though I understand what's going on with him, why did this prevent him from letting the watch know he was alive? And how did he just happen to be where they were?


He was sent by Tree-Man.

Presumably, dying freed him from his obligations to the Watch, and he's been working for Tree-Man (and now he's working for Tree-Man Junior).


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Benjen never said he actually died, so I don't know if that can explain his not checking in.

More likely, he is not exactly human any more. Maybe he is part wight, part white-walker, and part human. Since the Wall seems to be a barrier to wights and white walkers, it may be Benjen cannot cross the Wall.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

smbaker said:


> Not sure where the Arya thing is going. I'm glad to see her retain her identity rather than become a nameless assassin. However, I also wanted her to pick up those skills. I'd like to think this is all some kind of test, and she somehow passed by not assassinating the innocent and nice actress. If she'd gone through with it, she wouldn't be the Arya I liked anymore.


How could it be a test for her not to assassinate an "innocent"? The waif reported her failure to kill the woman to Jaqen, and he told the Waif she could kill Arya, just not to let her suffer. If it was a test, it was whether Arya would kill the women as instructed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Benjen never said he actually died, so I don't know if that can explain his not checking in.


Although plunging a blade into one's heart will generally have that effect...


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although plunging a blade into one's heart will generally have that effect...


Actually, no, the one time that we saw a dragonglass blade plunged into a live person's heart, he did not die. He became a white walker.

I think you may be confusing wights with white walkers. Wights are dead people reanimated (or dead horses, or dead anything maybe). White walkers just appear to be another species whose ancestors are human.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

john4200 said:


> The waif reported her failure to kill the woman to Jaqen, and he told the Waif she could kill Arya, just not to let her suffer.


I'm wondering if the real test is for Arya to kill the waif who has been sent to kill her.

I don't take anything Jaqen says or does at face value.


----------



## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

smbaker said:


> I don't take anything Jaqen says or does at face value.


I sea what you did there.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I was so ready for the high sparrow to get disposed of. I'm so tired of that guy and every single storyline that surrounds him.


I feel the same way on this actually. It's been old for some time and I feel we could have used a couple of episodes to tell the story they've been telling for the entire season (and part of last).



john4200 said:


> More likely, he is not exactly human any more. Maybe he is part wight, part white-walker, and part human. Since the Wall seems to be a barrier to wights and white walkers, it may be Benjen cannot cross the Wall.


ahhh I hadn't considered that. Perhaps that's what it is, I'd accept that. 



smbaker said:


> I'm wondering if the real test is for Arya to kill the waif who has been sent to kill her.
> I don't take anything Jaqen says or does at face value.





BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> I sea what you did there.


I didn't! I should have it's so obvious but my brain was too busy agreeing with him. But honestly I can't move past the scene where Jaqen tells Arya she can't become no one but can perhaps become something else. Am I mad? That happened right? If he expected her to fulfill this test and kill the actress, thus becoming no one then what was that about?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> I sea what you did there.


This post was clearly written in English.



photoshopgrl said:


> . But honestly I can't move past the scene where Jaqen tells Arya she can't become no one but can perhaps become something else. Am I mad? That happened right? If he expected her to fulfill this test and kill the actress, thus becoming no one then what was that about?


Maybe surviving the waif's attack is the final test for becoming something else.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Actually, no, the one time that we saw a dragonglass blade plunged into a live person's heart, he did not die. He became a white walker.


I'm not sure you can have one without the other...


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure you can have one without the other...


Again, I think you are confusing wights with white walkers. White walkers behave as if they are alive. They seem to be able to reason and to remember things. To say that a live human died for a second and then became a live white walker seems to be a pointless distinction -- simpler to just say that a live human transformed into a live white walker.

There has been no indication that wights retain any sort of memories. I think if Benjen had died, he would not still be Benjen, would not have Benjen's memories.

He somehow went from almost dead human to whatever he is now, without actually dying. And whatever he is now, he seems to have many of Benjen's memory, and perhaps some of Benjen's personality.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I think of it like on vampire shows when someone sustains a fatal injury but then their life is saved by turning them into a vampire instead of letting them die. I guess the zombie shows do the same thing. 

So the question is, why isn't he a white walker? Or is he a "good" white walker?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Robin said:


> So the question is, why isn't he a white walker? Or is he a "good" white walker?


As I speculated in a previous message, I guess he is not a white walker because of the wight magic that the white walkers left on his body and/or because he was very near to dying when the Children used the dragonglass on him.

I suppose it could also be that the Children have learned how to alter the magic since they first made the white walkers. Clearly the white walkers did not turn out to be the faithful servants that the Children intended. Perhaps Benjen got "Servant, version 2".


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Robin said:


> Maybe surviving the waif's attack is the final test for becoming something else.


I'm crossing my fingers. I'm not wanting Jaqen out of the story, either by her leaving Bravos or him somehow dying. I like this character a lot.



john4200 said:


> Again, I think you are confusing wights with white walkers. White walkers behave as if they are alive. They seem to be able to reason and to remember things. To say that a live human died for a second and then became a live white walker seems to be a pointless distinction -- simpler to just say that a live human transformed into a live white walker.
> There has been no indication that wights retain any sort of memories. I think if Benjen had died, he would not still be Benjen, would not have Benjen's memories.
> He somehow went from almost dead human to whatever he is now, without actually dying. And whatever he is now, he seems to have many of Benjen's memory, and perhaps some of Benjen's personality.


I always think of White Walkers as the leaders and the wights as the army like zombies they just go go go but have no logic or thought process outside of the WW control of them. Benjen seems like Benjen in mind but something else in body.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Can they kill Walter Frey off now so I can stop reliving the Red Wedding?


That's hopefully the reason they've brought him back.



john4200 said:


> Benjen never said he actually died, so I don't know if that can explain his not checking in.
> 
> More likely, he is not exactly human any more. Maybe he is part wight, part white-walker, and part human. Since the Wall seems to be a barrier to wights and white walkers, it may be Benjen cannot cross the Wall.


It's also possible that he has been too busy doing missions for the Three-Eyed Raven to have time to get back to the Wall. Technically fighting the White Walkers and their army is part of the Night's Watch's job, and arguably their main job, so I could see how he is not violating his oath by not having yet returned to the Wall.

Since the Three-Eyed Raven didn't tell Bran about Benjen, however, it could also be that he did, in fact, turn, but the White Walkers did so in a manner that made him seem normal. Perhaps his job was to "save" Bran so that they could head down to the Wall, and Bran could be used as a Trojan Horse to bring down its magic. That might explain how they were able to easily escape.

(Han Solo: You call that easy?)


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> For some reason, it has never occurred to me that he was engaged in anything but a power grab. Guess I'm just cynical...


Well, he definitely wants power for the faith. But he is completely open about that. I'm just not certain how much he wants for himself.

When Cersei found him, it seemed like he was genuinely wanting to serve the poor. I don't know that he could have predicted that she would arm his group in an attempt to hurt the Tyrells, but I suppose it's possible he had more insight into what was going on with the nobles than we were aware of, and was simply putting on a show for her. However, one of the reasons the nobles are so frustrated with him is because they haven't been able to bribe him like they are used to being able to do.

It could be that he is planning a long game, and sees that he can ultimately gain more for himself by not settling for less now. But I think it's also possible that he truly is devout, and isn't doing this for selfish reasons. If he is, however, then finding proof of an indiscretion is probably the best way to defeat the faith now that Tommen has formally endorsed them. Perhaps that's what Margaery, after learning his history, is hoping to be able to do.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think he's truly devout, in the worst way. He will do anything to gain power for his religion. And I suspect that the pursuit of power for his religion has surpassed the religion itself for him. I.e., sinning in the name of the gods is no sin.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

smbaker said:


> Yes, Benjen is back, but feels like Deus Ex Machina to me. Someone had to save Bran. We haven't seen Benjen in years, so let's pull him out of a hat.


It wasn't a Deus Ex Machina, Martin set it up years ago. Why else would he introduce the Benjen character? Why else would he have him go north of the wall and never be heard from again? He didn't pull Benjen out of a hat, 20 years ago he knew imagined this storyline and he knew Benjen would help Bran out, and do whatever else Benjen will do.

At the end of last week's episode I told my wife that Hodor holding the door only bought Bran maybe 5 more minutes and someone had to be waiting there to save him. I also told her I thought it would be Benjen or Cold Hands. It wasn't an out of the blue Deus Ex Machina.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I suspect that the pursuit of power for his religion has surpassed the religion itself for him. I.e., sinning in the name of the gods is no sin.


That's a good point. It might be neither selfish reasons nor pure reasons that motivate him, but something in between, where power for his group has become more important than their core beliefs.


----------



## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

pendragn said:


> Why else would he introduce the Benjen character? Why else would he have him go north of the wall and never be heard from again?


I don't know if there's more significance to him in the books, but it seems to me the purpose of Benjen in the TV series was to serve to introduce Jon Snow to The Night's Watch, and then to get promptly out of the way, leaving room for Jon Snow to have conflict with Allister Thorne and others.

That the character was introduced in episode #1 doesn't mitigate my Deus Ex Machina complaint. As you may know, the term originated with Greek plays, where Gods were introduced into a scene to resolve a seemingly insurmountable problem. The audiences knew who the Gods were. They were not unknown characters. Sometimes the Gods were mentioned in the opening of the play.

It was the act of a God appearing at a critical moment to resolve a seemingly unsolvable situation that is Deus Ex Machina. That's exactly what happened here. Meera and Bran are clearly about to devoured by the undead, there is absolutely nothing that can save them, and then a machine drops Uncle Benjen on a horse into the scene. He slays every foe in sight, and carries our heroes off to safety.



BitByBlit said:


> That might explain how they were able to easily escape.


Clearly the white walkers underestimated Hodor. He had been preparing his whole life to hold the door.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Deux ex Machina, or Chekhov's Benjen?

If Martin was finished with Benjen way back when, he wouldn't have had him mysteriously disappear...


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Deux ex Machina, or Chekhov's Benjen?
> 
> If Martin was finished with Benjen way back when, he wouldn't have had him mysteriously disappear...


Exactly. If there had been no mention of Benjen before last night's scene, then yes, he would have been a Deus Ex Machina. Instead, this was all set up by him , the brother of one of the most significant characters, going north of the wall and then disappearing. Like Rob said, that makes him a Checkov's Benjen.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If Martin was finished with Benjen way back when, he wouldn't have had him mysteriously disappear...


Like Arya's wolf?


----------



## awsnyde (May 11, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> When Mace Tyrell showed up, all I could think of was how much he looks like Ferdinand Lyle from Penny Dreadful (the flamboyantly gay Egyptologist).


I thought he looked familiar but couldn't quite peg it, but you hit the nail.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

pendragn said:


> Exactly. If there had been no mention of Benjen before last night's scene, then yes, he would have been a Deus Ex Machina. Instead, this was all set up by him , the brother of one of the most significant characters, going north of the wall and then disappearing. Like Rob said, that makes him a Checkov's Benjen.


Plus, we know that Hodor was fated to hold a door. I suppose it's possible that George hadn't yet decided which door he would ultimately hold, but I think it's more likely that he had already planned for this, and knew that Bran would not escape without additional help.

It might also be that the book will go into more detail about what Benjen's been up to, so it will seem less like he just came out of nowhere.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

So the lady actress says "that was odd. Can someone hand me a glass so I can have some rum?"


I mean really. You spill a glass of wine and you don't go throw away the bottle. You want a drink even more. 

So the lady will die after all. And then the waif chick kills Arya. Perfect.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I think Aria will finally best the waif when she brings a sword to a stick fight. 

Does Aria know how to do the face swap magic?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Like Arya's wolf?


Yep. Quite confident Nymeria will reappear.



BrettStah said:


> Does Aria know how to do the face swap magic?


Didn't she get in trouble for borrowing a face without permission?


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

She can face swap, she just goes blind afterwards.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I mean really. You spill a glass of wine and you don't go throw away the bottle. You want a drink even more.
> 
> So the lady will die after all. And then the waif chick kills Arya. Perfect.


Except that after Arya spilled the glass she warned the actress that the other actress is trying to kill her. You'd think that the first actress might deduce that the rum was poisoned from both the action and information.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Robin said:


> Yep. Quite confident Nymeria will reappear.
> 
> Didn't she get in trouble for borrowing a face without permission?


I couldn't recall if she needed help from the main face swap dude. If she can do it all by herself with no help, maybe she can kill the waif with her hidden sword, and then walk out with the waif's face.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BrettStah said:


> I think Aria will finally best the waif when she brings a sword to a stick fight.
> Does Aria know how to do the face swap magic?


I think the better question is, will the waif face swap in her attempt to kill Arya?


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

pendragn said:


> I also told her I thought it would be Benjen or Cold Hands.


In the after show talking part...



Spoiler



They referred to him as Cold Hands Benjen


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

ACoolDude said:


> In the after show talking part...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



That's been a pretty common theory. I'm not surprised.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ACoolDude said:


> In the after show talking part...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





pendragn said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> That's been a pretty common theory. I'm not surprised.


Hasn't Martin explicitly shot down that theory? Unless this is the show going in another direction..?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

First episode without Tyrion in ? Forever?

-smak-


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hasn't Martin explicitly shot down that theory? Unless this is the show going in another direction..?


I've seen a photo/scan of a manuscript from one of the novels where there's a note from his editor asking if the two characters are the same, and Martin wrote a simple "No" beside the question.

I have no idea if the image is real or not. If it is, it may have been released to misdirect readers who figured out the truth. Alternatively, the writers of the show may have combined two characters for simplicity.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Glad to see Arya reunited with needle. The other girl has been kicking her ass in training so will they fight or will Arya escape first?


This is why Arya is waiting in complete darkness. She is going to use the advantage of fighting blind; which the other girl doesn't have. Arya is waiting for the girl.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure I buy Sam stealing the sword...yes, he was provoked, but it just seems to me he's better than that. I guess the writers must have a really important reason for him to have a Valyrian steel sword...


I don't see how Sam is going to escape! His father will surely hunt him down.



BitbyBlit said:


> I think that only worked because he hadn't completely transformed, and the Children were able to use their magic before it was too late.


I think Benjen said something along the lines of the Children getting to him before he "turned".



DevdogAZ said:


> Pretty cool that during Bran's history flashes we saw Mad King Aegon ordering the city to be burned. What else of significance did we see in there?


We also went from firewater (is that what it's called?) to dragons...and we also saw Jaime kill the Mad King.



astrohip said:


> One question: Do we know with what force Jaime is heading to Riverrun? Gold cloaks, city guards, Lannister army? And what about that great warrior & leader, Mace Tyrell, and the army of Highgarden? What will they do now that the showdown at the Great Sept is for naught?


Jaime is now in charge of the Lannisters' army (replacing his uncle, who is currently the Hand of the King). This is also what Tywin wanted. Jaime is now free to marry and have children (wink wink) and can now claim Casterly Rock?.



photoshopgrl said:


> I didn't! I should have it's so obvious but my brain was too busy agreeing with him. But honestly I can't move past the scene where Jaqen tells Arya she can't become no one but can perhaps become something else. Am I mad? That happened right? If he expected her to fulfill this test and kill the actress, thus becoming no one then what was that about?


YES YES YES. I pointed out this scene many times in previous posts. Everyone seems to ignore this as unimportant. I think it is the critical piece of the puzzle for Arya. She is NOT destined to be "no one". It's already been established in that scene!



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he's truly devout, in the worst way. He will do anything to gain power for his religion. And I suspect that the pursuit of power for his religion has surpassed the religion itself for him. I.e., sinning in the name of the gods is no sin.


Exactly. This is another person who wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms. I'm sure he believes he's the best person to represent the Gods.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> So what are the chances that a teenage girl pulling a teenage boy on a sled would be able to outrun the Night's King and the rest of the White Walkers and their armies all the way back to the Wall? Especially now that Bran has the "Mark" and the Night's King can find him wherever he is?
> 
> So that leads me to one of two conclusions:
> 
> ...





Shaunnick said:


> C) Unknown hero. Who is left north of the wall we know? Rattleshirt is dead, Craster is dead. Anyone else?





heySkippy said:


> *Benjen Stark!*





Shaunnick said:


> Let's not get carried away now.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> From her point of view, I don't think it is a deal with the devil. Or if it is, it is the lesser devil. Cersei and the Lannisters are her true enemy, and her alliance with the Sparrow weakens Cersei (and Jaime).
> 
> Jaime is not much of a Kingsguard if he did not know that Tommen was in the church (or that Tommen had been meeting with the Sparrow several times). Of course, some may say he already proved to be a poor Kingsguard when he became Kingslayer.


I think this is more Margery taking her destiny into her hands because she was cut off from anyone in the know. And obviously, Tommen was not in the know. So she makes the deal, sucks Tommen in, and blows up the plans by the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> For book readers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Speculation online is because Martin already confirmed they were two different people, that the show is combining them like Jeyne and Sansa were combined to smooth things over without introducing another new character.

But it could also be Martin changed his mind about Benjen/Coldhands also.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Thank the gods that No One is going back to being Arya Stark and I hope she opens up a can of Whoop-Ass on the waif on her way out of town.
> 
> I hoped a little bit that Arya would tell lady Crane who she really was.
> 
> Margery switched sides a bit too suddenly but man, Tommen is an impressionable, cowardly idiot.


15 old being led around by his bits by a 25 year old woman leagues beyond him in cleverness and foresight.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I'm not a book reader but it's impossible for me to not click these so can someone in a very short summary explain Coldhands?


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a book reader but it's impossible for me to not click these so can someone in a very short summary explain Coldhands?


Here's a link:


Spoiler



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Coldhands At the bottom there is also a link to theories about Coldhands, which covers the Benjen connection.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

pendragn said:


> Here's a link:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Interesting thanks for the link.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> I think Martin has setup every Valyrian steel sword as a possible Chekhov's sword. We know about a lot of them, and only one will eventually kill the Night King (spoiler alert!). I'd put my money on Jon's.
> 
> How many do we know of?
> 
> ...


I'd bet against you. If the author has taught us anything, is that it's never the hero in the epic battle that deals the mortal blow. I only need to go back to Jon's battle at Caster's Keep for an example.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

How does Aria plan on besting the waif? The last time they trained, Aria had a weapon and the waif was unarmed. Aria couldn't touch her and got her butt kicked. 

Also, hope that Cersei's trial by combat is in the next week or two. We still don't know what secret the High Sparrow told Tommen a few weeks ago.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

nickels said:


> How does Aria plan on besting the waif? The last time they trained, Aria had a weapon and the waif was unarmed. Aria couldn't touch her and got her butt kicked.


I think she retrieved her sword without the waif's knowledge. I think she plans on making use of it. 


nickels said:


> Also, hope that Cersei's trial by combat is in the next week or two. We still don't know what secret the High Sparrow told Tommen a few weeks ago.


I thought the secret was that the queen would be walking naked through the streets, like his mother did.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> I think Aria will finally best the waif when she brings a sword to a stick fight.


Yes, it's pretty predictable. Will she kill the girl? Probably not. But she'll win, enjoy winning, let the waif know she won, and then leave.

How cool would it be if she was killed though? I mean just for the surprise of it.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

morac said:


> Except that after Arya spilled the glass she warned the actress that the other actress is trying to kill her. You'd think that the first actress might deduce that the rum was poisoned from both the action and information.


Some stranger tells you someone wants you dead. Do you take it seriously?

I dunno, it was a bit weak to me. But of course i'm just being silly and nit-picky.

Someone on the cleaning crew will probably drink the rum and die. *shrug*


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> I couldn't recall if she needed help from the main face swap dude. If she can do it all by herself with no help, maybe she can kill the waif with her hidden sword, and then walk out with the waif's face.


It's an interesting point.

If Arya leaves now, what learning does she take with her? She's certainly a better sweeper now. And can take a beating better. Probably a bit more observant.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think the better question is, will the waif face swap in her attempt to kill Arya?


Nah, she'll want Arya to know exactly who killed her. And she'll want to kill her straight-up, with no trickery.

She also has no reason to think Arya is a threat. I don't believe waify knows about needle.

Yet.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> This is why Arya is waiting in complete darkness. She is going to use the advantage of fighting blind; which the other girl doesn't have. Arya is waiting for the girl.


So we're pretty sure Arya knows that the waif will come for her? I suppose that makes sense.

I don't quite understand what's going through Arya's head.

1. "I failed in killing the actress, so I should probably skiddaddle."
2. "Oooh, I'll get my sword."
3. "Lights out, bedtime!"

I mean why not hit the road? Why stay? To get an early start in the morning after a refreshing slumber?

She really would rather confront the waif than leave?

She knows this is the final test, to fight the waif and then find the main dude and say "well what next?".

Anyone have any idea?


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

As a non-book reader, I find it interesting that it's really named "The Red Wedding" in the books. I thought it was just a colloquial name that everyone in the real world agreed to.

I'm glad to see Brutus Edmure back. I was wondering if he was dead or not.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Some stranger tells you someone wants you dead. Do you take it seriously?


I'd say it was the profoundly guilty look on the other actor's face that clinched it for her...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> So we're pretty sure Arya knows that the waif will come for her? I suppose that makes sense.
> 
> I don't quite understand what's going through Arya's head.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming the Waif has made it to Arya's list 

I don't think Arya thinks/knows it's a test. But she's been told that a life would be the price and so knows that the Waif would come after her. I'm thinking Arya would rather meet her on her (Arya's) own turf than look over her shoulder for who-knows-when the Waif will strike.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I'm assuming the Waif has made it to Arya's list
> 
> I don't think Arya thinks/knows it's a test. But she's been told that a life would be the price and so knows that the Waif would come after her. I'm thinking Arya would rather meet her on her (Arya's) own turf than look over her shoulder for who-knows-when the Waif will strike.


Excellent.

I can most definitely see Arya staying true to her list and adding Sally Sue (whatever her name used to be).

I like it. :up:


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Making my prediciton now. With as fast as the show is moving I think this happens by episode 10.

Benjen helps Bran back to the wall. Bran, now marked, passes through the wall and destroys the magic holding the white walkers back.

The Night King, with his army horde, larger than we have seen so far, walks up to the wall, raises his arms badass style, and the whole thing comes crashing down. Queue credits.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

nickels said:


> How does Aria plan on besting the waif? The last time they trained, Aria had a weapon and the waif was unarmed. Aria couldn't touch her and got her butt kicked.


I found that scene kind of odd since when Aria was still blind she did manage to best the waif in combat (at least once).


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

morac said:


> I found that scene kind of odd since when Aria was still blind she did manage to best the waif in combat (at least once).


I'm holding out hope that she was playing possum. Once she started getting the better of the Waif, she seemed to have regressed all of a sudden. If it's a trick, kudos to her!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm hoping Arya remembers her dancing master's training and we get a waif-kabob.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> For book readers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





whoknows55 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I assume this is one of the the things that the TV show is doing to simplify the plot. We will need to wait till winds of winter to find out.


I've always assumed that was the case, although I know that other book readers disagree.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> If Arya leaves now, what learning does she take with her? She's certainly a better sweeper now. And can take a beating better. Probably a bit more observant.


She can wash dead bodies!

(Not sure if she got up to face peeling.)


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

She can fight really well with her eyes closed, and poorly with her eyes open.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It doesn't seem like Arya has learned anything during her time with the Faceless Men.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> It doesn't seem like Arya has learned anything during her time with the Faceless Men.


Well, she learned she doesn't want to be an assassin for hire. She also picked up some fighting skills, and likely some ability to blend in as needed better, possibly via the magic face swap thing.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> It doesn't seem like Arya has learned anything during her time with the Faceless Men.


She also found a safe (somewhat?) haven during a time when a lot of powerful people with big armies were searching for her.


----------



## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Wouldn't the waif wear another face to get Arya? Seems dumb she would be the same person Arya knows would more than likely be looking for her.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

JFriday said:


> Wouldn't the waif wear another face to get Arya? Seems dumb she would be the same person Arya knows would more than likely be looking for her.


There only appear to be three people living there. Arya will try to kill anyone who comes toward her if she's smart.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> There only appear to be three people living there. Arya will try to kill anyone who comes toward her if she's smart.


Smart? A Stark? You do watch the show, right?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Smart? A Stark? You do watch the show, right?


Heh. She's still alive, right?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Victarion/Euron; Gendry/Edric Storm. The showrunners are doing what the must to turn these massive novels into a good television adaptation.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

A couple of the scenes fell flat for me.

Dany: It just seemed redundant. She's already got the Dothraki following her; did they need a half-time speech?

Walder Frey: Is Edmure really going to give him significant leverage over the Blackfish? IIRC, the Blackfish didn't think much of his nephew, and was with Robb Stark when Edmure was rebuked for his follies during the War of the Five Kings. Also, (Brynden) has surely known all along that Edmure was a hostage while he was retaking Riverrun.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> Making my prediciton now. With as fast as the show is moving I think this happens by episode 10.
> 
> Benjen helps Bran back to the wall. Bran, now marked, passes through the wall and destroys the magic holding the white walkers back.
> 
> The Night King, with his army horde, larger than we have seen so far, walks up to the wall, raises his arms badass style, and the whole thing comes crashing down. Queue credits.


This theory was pretty well discredited by this forum when I advanced it last week. 
Well, it wasn't as detailed, but I proffered that Bran's "mark" will ruin the magic of the wall, just as it did the magic of the tree-cave.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Finally, who will be the Faith's Champion in Cersei's trial by combat?

The Hound? 
Ser Loras? - plays right back at Margaery.
Another member of the Kingsguard?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

MacThor said:


> A couple of the scenes fell flat for me.
> 
> Dany: It just seemed redundant. She's already got the Dothraki following her; did they need a half-time speech?


Well, they were following her. I'm not sure they knew that they had signed up for crossing the Narrow Sea in boats. So she decided on full disclosure.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Well, they were following her. I'm not sure they knew that they had signed up for crossing the Narrow Sea in boats. So she decided on full disclosure.


Plus Dany being followed by a horde of Dothraki isn't half as cool as Dany on a HUGE FRIKKIN' DRAGON being followed by a horde of Dothraki! 

(Good thing for Westrosi cardiologists that there aren't any Little Birds in the neighborhood...)


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Walder Frey: *Is Edmure really going to give him significant leverage over the Blackfish?* IIRC, the Blackfish didn't think much of his nephew, and was with Robb Stark when Edmure was rebuked for his follies during the War of the Five Kings. Also, Edmure has surely known all along that Edmure was a hostage while he was retaking Riverrun.


Edmure is Lord of Riverrun.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> Edmure is Lord of Riverrun.


And Blackfish's nephew; which counts for a lot in these parts. But I think Blackfish will consider him a casualty of war. The castle and land are more important to keep the family going and in charge.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Breakdown of Bran's vision: http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/game-of-thrones-bran-vision/#t481ojXjisqt


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> Edmure is Lord of Riverrun.


Yes, and he was when B. Tully retook it. If Edmure being a hostage in Frey's dungeon didn't dissuade him from taking Riverrun, why would it convince him to give it up?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Why is Cersei being tried at all? I thought the walk of shame was atonement and she's done with that now.

The Hound being The Mountain's adversary would be pretty cool.


Spoiler



In the books, although it is not 100% revealed to be him, Brienne and Pod find him in a monastery. So that goes along with him fighting as the Sparrow's champion against The Mountain.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Yes, and he was when B. Tully retook it. If Edmure being a hostage in Frey's dungeon didn't dissuade him from taking Riverrun, why would it convince him to give it up?


I'm not so sure the Blackfish knows Edmure is even alive.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MacThor said:


> A couple of the scenes fell flat for me.
> 
> Dany: It just seemed redundant. She's already got the Dothraki following her; did they need a half-time speech?
> 
> Walder Frey: Is Edmure really going to give him significant leverage over the Blackfish? IIRC, the Blackfish didn't think much of his nephew, and was with Robb Stark when Edmure was rebuked for his follies during the War of the Five Kings. Also, (Brynden) has surely known all along that Edmure was a hostage while he was retaking Riverrun.


Fine points.

I did really like the Dany scene though, and perhaps it was wise for her to prove that she has control over the dragons.

I don't get the Frey stuff. I guess he's going to lose a ton of men fighting with Blackfish. Is he a Stark? Seems stupid.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I don't get the Frey stuff. I guess he's going to lose a ton of men fighting with Blackfish. Is he a Stark? Seems stupid.


Well, aside from the revenge angle for Robb not marrying a daughter (which would have tied the Freys to the Starks), betraying the Starks brought upon the expansion of his dominion to include Riverrun. He doesn't want to lose the extra land he gained back to Blackfish and the Tullys.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

FYI,

Lady Crane is being played by the actress 'Essie Davis'. She stars in the Australian show called 'Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries'. A great show.


----------



## nirisahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Malcontent said:


> FYI,
> 
> Lady Crane is being played by the actress 'Essie Davis'. She stars in the Australian show called 'Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries'. A great show.


I love 'Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries'.


----------



## whoknows55 (Jun 17, 2001)

Malcontent said:


> FYI,
> 
> Lady Crane is being played by the actress 'Essie Davis'. She stars in the Australian show called 'Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries'. A great show.


She look really different out of her Miss Fisher wig. I didn't recognize her at first.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

gossamer88 said:


> Edmure is Lord of Riverrun.


I think it also depends on what the other Lords in the Vale think of him. Since he was worthless in a previous war, I think they'll stick with the guy who came in and freed them from Freys.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I think it also depends on what the other Lords in the Vale think of him. Since he was worthless in a previous war, I think they'll stick with the guy who came in and freed them from Freys.


The Lords of the Vale probably have little to no say in the matter.

The Lords of the Riverlands on the other hand...


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Nice that we wasted a season seeing Arya at the House of Black and White only to have her walk away. 

Remember when JHadar(?) left Arya he changed his face in a blink? He did it again outside the entry door. Does he have a pocket in his gown to store spare faces?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, aside from the revenge angle for Robb not marrying a daughter (which would have tied the Freys to the Starks), betraying the Starks brought upon the expansion of his dominion to include Riverrun. He doesn't want to lose the extra land he gained back to Blackfish and the Tullys.


You seem to have a much firmer grasp on this show than I do. :up:

I do get the marriage snub. And that Frey holds grudges. Thanks for that piece.

But in the whole Red Wedding how exactly did he get Riverrun? Or did he just win an alliance with the leader of Riverrun?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Dany gets all the cool scenes.








but honestly I don't think her character is deserving.

She will not be on board with Tyrion's 7 year plan. With her horde and unsullied she will probably just retake Yunkai and conquer Astapor. She'll probably think why she even needs Tyrion. This is where I think she doesn't deserve all these cool scenes she gets. She doesn't know how to rule. While at Mareen, she had been met with nothing but failure during her governorship. She needs people that know how to rule, like Westeros's wardens, whome she has said she will get rid of once she takes Westeros.
This compounded by her extreme empathy for the downtrodden, who will likely suffer during her hypothetical campaign against Westeros.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> You seem to have a much firmer grasp on this show than I do. :up:
> 
> I do get the marriage snub. And that Frey holds grudges. Thanks for that piece.
> 
> But in the whole Red Wedding how exactly did he get Riverrun? Or did he just win an alliance with the leader of Riverrun?


The deal he made with Tywin is that they would force Ed (now the Lord of Riverrun/Riverland) to marry Frey's daughter. Once they were married, Robb and the gang were murdered at the reception and now Frey gets to run Riverland and be the Lord of it as a reward (with Ed in his dungeon and being his son-in-law and all).

Just like Bolton got Winterfell and the North as his reward for the deal, Frey got Riverland. That's how the Red Wedding came to be.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> The deal he made with Tywin is that they would force Ed (now the Lord of Riverrun/Riverland) to marry Frey's daughter. Once they were married, Robb and the gang were murdered at the reception and now Frey gets to run Riverland and be the Lord of it as a reward (with Ed in his dungeon and being his son-in-law and all).
> 
> Just like Bolton got Winterfell and the North as his reward for the deal, Frey got Riverland. That's how the Red Wedding came to be.


I need to rewatch a few episdoes...


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

robojerk said:


> She will not be on board with Tyrion's 7 year plan. With her horde and unsullied she will probably just retake Yunkai and conquer Astapor. She'll probably think why she even needs Tyrion. This is where I think she doesn't deserve all these cool scenes she gets. She doesn't know how to rule. While at Mareen, she had been met with nothing but failure during her governorship. She needs people that know how to rule, like Westeros's wardens, whome she has said she will get rid of once she takes Westeros.
> This compounded by her extreme empathy for the downtrodden, who will likely suffer during her hypothetical campaign against Westeros.


She may not be onboard with Tyrion's plan, but unless she plans to leave half her army in Mareen, Yunkai and Astapor when she goes off to conquer Westeros, she might not really have a choice. Tyrion's plan may not be ideal, but it does solve the problem of having to reconquer already conquered cities.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

morac said:


> She may not be onboard with Tyrion's plan, but unless she plans to leave half her army in Mareen, Yunkai and Astapor when she goes off to conquer Westeros, she might not really have a choice. Tyrion's plan may not be ideal, but it does solve the problem of having to reconquer already conquered cities.


I don't see her making her Dothraki hordes free their slaves.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The Lords of the Vale probably have little to no say in the matter.
> 
> The Lords of the Riverlands on the other hand...


Whoops! I hesitated when I posted that, thinking I should look it up, but I'm lazy....


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Dany's stance on slavery is pretty hard core. I can't see her being diplomatic with the other cities. She'll come back, say something like how dare Tyrion speak for her (even though she was out of the picture) and dissolve the deal. Also the Dothraki finicky bunch. They'll follow her for awhile but they're superstitious about water, and can do plenty of raping and pillaging on the continent they're on. I can't imagine them holed up in a city like Mareen for long.


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

MacThor said:


> This theory was pretty well discredited by this forum when I advanced it last week.
> Well, it wasn't as detailed, but I proffered that Bran's "mark" will ruin the magic of the wall, just as it did the magic of the tree-cave.


Remember there were references to a horn (forgotten its name) that when sounded would topple the wall (or at least allow the Wildlings to get through). I'd be surprised if that horn did not play a part in the future.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

markbox said:


> Remember there were references to a horn (forgotten its name) that when sounded would topple the wall (or at least allow the Wildlings to get through). I'd be surprised if that horn did not play a part in the future.


 they have pretty much dropped the horn of joramun plot considering major characters in the books that deal with the horn don't have it now.


----------



## markbox (May 3, 2004)

morac said:


> She may not be onboard with Tyrion's plan, but unless she plans to leave half her army in Mareen, Yunkai and Astapor when she goes off to conquer Westeros, she might not really have a choice. Tyrion's plan may not be ideal, but it does solve the problem of having to reconquer already conquered cities.


Agreed. Also, Tyrion's plan has already worked since the Son's of the Harpy are no longer causing the level of mayhem they were previous to Tyrion's deal with the Slavers. This buys them (Dani, Tyrion, et all) time and resources that can be used to focus on the long term goal of heading to Westeros instead of having to deal with the Son's of the Harpy.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

He knew something at least:


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Here are some very detailed spoilers on S6 that came out way back in September. Some are bang-on (so be aware that there are spoilers all the way out to the end of the season) and some are hilariously wrong given what we've already seen.

https://angrygotfan.com/2015/09/23/game-of-thrones-season-6-plot-leak/


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

wprager said:


> Here are some very detailed spoilers on S6 that came out way back in September. Some are bang-on (so be aware that there are spoilers all the way out to the end of the season) and some are hilariously wrong given what we've already seen.
> 
> https://angrygotfan.com/2015/09/23/game-of-thrones-season-6-plot-leak/


Are they spoilers or predictions?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

teknikel said:


> Are they spoilers or predictions?


That's what I want to know before I click on that link!


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Anubys said:


> That's what I want to know before I click on that link!


It seems to just be stuff the guy thinks might happen. So far everything I've read has happened differently. So there don't seem to be spoilers. Unless you consider anyone talking about stuff that might happen to be a spoiler. (Some around here do.)

Here is an example that if you are up to date in the shows, is obviously wrong:



Spoiler



DORNE

 Dorne has only three scenes this season. The first is Trystane (Ep. 3) confronting his father (apparently he gets sent back to Dorne) and asking him to execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. Doran says he should, but its complicated. He then explains that Trystane must do something more important. We then see the Sand Snakes and Ellaria in prison together being guarded by Areo Hotah. Ellaria thinks they are going to be executed, but Obara says theres no way Doran would do it.

In Ep. 6 we see Doran free Ellaria and bring him to his chambers, then he explains to her his plan to support Daenerys to take back the Iron Throne for the House Targaryen. He says he has sent Trystane to Meereen. Ellaria is then banished. She asks about the Sand Snakes, and Doran says they will get what they deserve.

In Ep. 10 the Sand Snakes fates are revealed to them, and Doran tells them they can prevent their execution if they go to Oldtown and complete some sort of mission.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I predict the sand snake scenes will be poorly written and the acting will be even worse. I hope we never hear from them again except by word of mouth that a dragon killed them all.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

teknikel said:


> Are they spoilers or predictions?


Predictions. Hit rate is low enough that I don't see any evidence of actual spoiler material.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I need to rewatch a few episdoes...


I need to re-watch a few _seasons_.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

MacThor said:


> Finally, who will be the Faith's Champion in Cersei's trial by combat?
> 
> The Hound?
> Ser Loras? - plays right back at Margaery.
> Another member of the Kingsguard?


And what makes Cersei so confident about the Mountain winning? Didn't he already have his a** handed to him once in a similar situation?


----------



## RegBarc (Feb 18, 2003)

goblue97 said:


> And what makes Cersei so confident about the Mountain winning? Didn't he already have his a** handed to him once in a similar situation?


Well now he's zombie mountain. And she's so spiteful, all she cared about was beating the Martells.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

goblue97 said:


> And what makes Cersei so confident about the Mountain winning? Didn't he already have his a** handed to him once in a similar situation?


Let's ask the Prince who won.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

nickels said:


> Let's ask the Prince who won.


Is the winner the one who had his a** handed to him, or the one who had his head handed to him?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

nickels said:


> Let's ask the Prince who won.


Let's ask Ellaria who won.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

kaszeta said:


> Predictions. Hit rate is low enough that I don't see any evidence of actual spoiler material.


Some were definitely spoilers because, even for stuff he got wrong, there is enough correct detail that cannot be just coincidence. For example (not using spoiler tags because this has already happened):



> Arya starts out blind and on the outs with Jaqen (or the bloke with Jaqens face anyways). She eventually is given a chance to redeem herself by taking out some rich GUY whos going to attend a play. So she ingratiates herself with this group of actors, who end up doing a whole bit on the War of the Five Kings. Only thing is, they make the Lannisters out to be heroes, and the Starks to be villains. History really is written by the winners.


So "some rich GUY" is wrong but everything else is bang on and could not have been just fan fiction.

There are other examples, too, so it's a mix. And because it goes out to the end of the season there are likely to be more spoilers mixed in with wrong information.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

wprager said:


> Some were definitely spoilers because, even for stuff he got wrong, there is enough correct detail that cannot be just coincidence. For example (not using spoiler tags because this has already happened):
> 
> So "some rich GUY" is wrong but everything else is bang on and could not have been just fan fiction.
> 
> There are other examples, too, so it's a mix. And because it goes out to the end of the season there are likely to be more spoilers mixed in with wrong information.


I listen to a couple of GoT podcasts and apparently there are tons of tidbits that can be gleaned by watching various HBO provided videos available online, which show some "making of" type stuff, including done with interviews given from certain sets, as well as some special effects videos that give away certain details, and so on.

Some people vacuum up all available information like that, including leaked photos from filming, and they can piece together quite a bit of future plot points.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)




----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> I listen to a couple of GoT podcasts and apparently there are tons of tidbits that can be gleaned by watching various HBO provided videos available online, which show some "making of" type stuff, including done with interviews given from certain sets, as well as some special effects videos that give away certain details, and so on.
> 
> Some people vacuum up all available information like that, including leaked photos from filming, and they can piece together quite a bit of future plot points.


I listen to A Cast of Kings. It's David Chen from /Filmcast (my favorite movie podcast) and Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair. She's a reader and he's not.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> And what makes Cersei so confident about the Mountain winning? Didn't he already have his a** handed to him once in a similar situation?


I may be a little confused, but isn't Cersei getting ahead of herself, assuming that their will be a Trial by Combat? That route seems to be rooted in some tradition, but it doesn't seem it fits well with the whole religion / justice / truth aspect.

Has the show given any confirmation from the High Sparrow will agree to a Trial by Combat?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dtle said:


> Has the show given any confirmation from the High Sparrow will agree to a Trial by Combat?


I'm pretty sure from what we've seen before is that the defendant has the right to demand it.

This isn't a religious trial...that was covered by the Walk of Shame. She was pretty pissed when she discovered that even though she'd been "cleared" religiously, she still had to face a secular trial. I guess the gods don't believe in double jeopardy!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm pretty sure from what we've seen before is that the defendant has the right to demand it.


Yep. Catelyn's sister certainly didn't agree with Tyrion demanding his, but it happened anyway.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That cat meme was funny.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

According to this article, which references a Vanity Fair article, Jack Bender is saying season 7 will indeed be a short season at only 7 episodes. HBO hasn't confirmed it, but that is a pretty good source.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

ClutchBrake said:


> According to this article, which references a Vanity Fair article, Jack Bender is saying season 7 will indeed be a short season at only 7 episodes. HBO hasn't confirmed it, but that is a pretty good source.


If this show is such a hit for HBO, are they really going to let it end with only 13 more episodes (after this current season)? I'd be shocked if they didn't come up with something else set in this same universe. A prequel series set X years before, or sequel set X years after, maybe.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> If this show is such a hit for HBO, are they really going to let it end with only 13 more episodes (after this current season)?


Why not? It's not like they keep hitting us with Sopranos spinoffs.


----------



## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> If this show is such a hit for HBO, are they really going to let it end with only 13 more episodes (after this current season)? I'd be shocked if they didn't come up with something else set in this same universe. A prequel series set X years before, or sequel set X years after, maybe.


But I don't want to see it turn into something like True Blood or Dexter where it just got worse and worse. But, as long as they have legitimate story to tell, I say keep 'em coming.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> Why not? It's not like they keep hitting us with Sopranos spinoffs.


True...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

HBO doesn't currently have any real drama hits to replace GoT when it ends, so that will likely play a part in whether HBO wants the series to continue or not. But if Dan and David have outlined the plot to the end and only have 13 episodes of story to tell after the end of S6, there's not really much HBO can do about that.

I'll be very interested to see how Westworld does this fall and whether it will be something that becomes a hit and can take over as a tent pole for HBO. I think that's what they were hoping for Vinyl and True Detective, but neither has panned out.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Many people are speculating that because Bran has now been marked by the Night King, that if Bran goes through the Wall, it will break the magic that prevents the White Walkers from going through. But if the Three-Eyed Raven saw the future and knew that Bran and Meera would need help and therefore dispatched Benjen to save them from the Wights, wouldn't the 3ER also have been able to see this problem with Bran's mark and warn Benjen that Bran should not be allowed to go through the Wall (at least not without first cutting off his arm)?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Many people are speculating that because Bran has now been marked by the Night King, that if Bran goes through the Wall, it will break the magic that prevents the White Walkers from going through. But if the Three-Eyed Raven saw the future and knew that Bran and Meera would need help and therefore dispatched Benjen to save them from the Wights, wouldn't the 3ER also have been able to see this problem with Bran's mark and warn Benjen that Bran should not be allowed to go through the Wall (at least not without first cutting off his arm)?


I think if the nights watch are able to bring corpses back that have been killed because of white walkers, and they re animate south of the wall, and the wall still stands, it would be stupid if the "mark" Bran carries undoes it.

I think those people just want to plot to move faster, and see an invasion of the dead heading southwards.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

robojerk said:


> I think if the nights watch are able to bring corpses back that have been killed because of white walkers, and they re animate south of the wall, and the wall still stands, it would be stupid if the "mark" Bran carries undoes it.
> 
> I think those people just want to plot to move faster, and see an *invasion of the *[nearly] *dead heading southwards*.


Up here in Canada we call them "Snow birds"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Up here in Canada we call them "Snow birds"


That's also what we call them when they get down here to the south.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MacThor said:


> Dany: It just seemed redundant. She's already got the Dothraki following her; did they need a half-time speech?


Maybe she started overhearing the Dothraki making comments like, "That whole room was on fire" and "Yeah, she really killed in there." Not being able to tell if they were being literal or not, she decided to reinforce the fact that they ought to take her seriously.

Those Dothraki can be a fickle people. Eat a horse's heart without barfing, and they love you. Let your husband fall off his horse, and they abandon you.

Sure, being immune to fire is cool and all. But having that ability along with a "flying, fire-breathing horse" rises to the level of, to use Rob's word, frikkin' cool.

With the reveal of Drogon, Daenerys has essentially become, in the eyes of the Dothraki, the prophesied Stallion Who Mounts the World. She has united all (or at least most) of the Dothraki into her khalasar, and now they will follow her to the ends of the earth.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> This isn't a religious trial...that was covered by the Walk of Shame. She was pretty pissed when she discovered that even though she'd been "cleared" religiously, she still had to face a secular trial. I guess the gods don't believe in double jeopardy!


I think the trial is a religious trial, although it could very well follow the same rules as secular trials. In fact, given that the idea of Trial by Combat is that the gods influence the outcome, it's likely that the people don't see a difference. They could all be just "trials".

In this case, the trial is to determine whether Cersei is guilty of having had intimate relations with Jaime, and if her children were a result of that. Cersei's Walk was to atone for her relations with Lancel, which is the only thing to which she confessed.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> Remember when JHadar(?) left Arya he changed his face in a blink? He did it again outside the entry door. Does he have a pocket in his gown to store spare faces?


I think he used magic. Using prosthetics is for wannabe nobodies.

I'm not sure if Arya has yet graduated to that level, but it would be cool to have a scene like this:



> Waif: A girl has disappointed the Many-Faced God.
> 
> _Arya stabs her with Needle_
> 
> ...


I don't know if this scene would qualify as an episode ender, but I think it would be cool enough to be one.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

robojerk said:


> I think if the nights watch are able to bring corpses back that have been killed because of white walkers, and they re animate south of the wall, and the wall still stands, it would be stupid if the "mark" Bran carries undoes it.


That depends on how that mark can be given. Perhaps the mark could only be planted on someone connected to the world as Bran was when he warged into the Tree of Knowledge.

On the other hand, one would think that if the Wall disrupted the White Walker's magic, it would have neutralized the dead bodies, and prevented them from being turned into wights. Since it didn't, perhaps it isn't Bran that will destroy the magic, but Benjen.

One possibility that doesn't involve Benjen knowingly working for the White Walkers is that they planted something that wouldn't turn him immediately. The Children used magic to save him, but that only served to suppress the White Walker magic enough for him to get through the Wall (which could be why they left him to be saved in the first place). Once through the Wall, the White Walker magic would take over, and he would turn.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BitbyBlit said:


> With the reveal of Drogon, Daenerys has essentially become, in the eyes of the Dothraki, the prophesied Stallion Who Mounts the World.


Quite a few of them got a very good look at her back at the burning hut. I expect they could see quite plainly that she was missing some key equipment if she was to be a stallion mounting anything.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Many people are speculating that because Bran has now been marked by the Night King, that if Bran goes through the Wall, it will break the magic that prevents the White Walkers from going through. But if the Three-Eyed Raven saw the future and knew that Bran and Meera would need help and therefore dispatched Benjen to save them from the Wights, wouldn't the 3ER also have been able to see this problem with Bran's mark and warn Benjen that Bran should not be allowed to go through the Wall (at least not without first cutting off his arm)?


We don't know that the wall has magic, do we? I don't recall it being mentioned (not saying it wasn't, I just don't recall). This may just be something from the books that just bled into our conversation here by accident.

Still, the Night King is bound to get south of the wall at some point. He must have a plan to get around/through the wall if he wants to conquer the rest of the world.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> We don't know that the wall has magic, do we? ....


How could it not? It was built to stop the white walkers. If they could just climb over it, tunnel under it, or go around it, then it would not be much of a barrier, would it?

It must have magic.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Still, the Night King is bound to get south of the wall at some point. He must have a plan to get around/through the wall if he wants to conquer the rest of the world.


Maybe he'll just get his zombie horde to push it south. To the sea.

Like a very well-defined glacier!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

john4200 said:


> How could it not? It was built to stop the white walkers. If they could just climb over it, tunnel under it, or go around it, then it would not be much of a barrier, would it?
> 
> It must have magic.


But if it has magic, then why does it need to be so big and impressive?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

wprager said:


> But if it has magic, then why does it need to be so big and impressive?


That is how the magic works. In order to create a strong enough spell that will last for millenia, you need a big, impressive wall of ice to anchor the magic to.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> But if it has magic, then why does it need to be so big and impressive?


An ice wall that big HAS to be magic, to prevent it from collapsing under its own weight!


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

wprager said:


> but if it has magic, then why does it need to be so big and impressive?


twss


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

I found this ~14 minute analysis / criticism of the show/book interesting. Some book vs. show spoilerish stuff, but nothing that is a big deal if you are up to date on the show, or the books.

(TLDW: the show isn't as good as the books, here's why)


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Meh, it's just one guy's opinion. I haven't read the books (my wife is on the 2nd one) but I haven't heard of Martin complaining about the show (not like Lucas complaining about Episode VII, for example). This show is *not* going to be bad to the genre like he expects/fears. And, as much as I loved the LotR films (and I've read almost everything -- didn't finish the unfinished stories) I don't necessarily see them as superior to GoT.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> Quite a few of them got a very good look at her back at the burning hut. I expect they could see quite plainly that she was missing some key equipment if she was to be a stallion mounting anything.


That was just the name the Dothraki gave the prophesied person when they assumed the leader would be a male.



ct1 said:


> I found this ~14 minute analysis / criticism of the show/book interesting. Some book vs. show spoilerish stuff, but nothing that is a big deal if you are up to date on the show, or the books.


I haven't read the books, but I've gotten that spirit he describes as being in the books from the show. In fact, that's one of the things that has impressed me about the show. In the midst of a world where might for the most part makes right, and where staying true to one's ideals often gets one killed, there are still characters willing to stand up for what they believe.

Sure, they don't always do the right thing, and when they do, they don't always succeed. But that makes when they do stand out all the more, and have more impact.

Given when the video was posted, I'm assuming the guy had seen last week's episode by the time he made it. Did he miss the part where Arya decided not to blindly kill the actress, thus putting her own life at risk for having done so? From Arya's point-of-view, she not only gave up the closest thing she had to a safe haven, she also added an organization of skilled assassins to the list of people who want her dead.

And yes, Daenerys is on a conquering streak right now. But we don't know what will happen if and when she actually gets to Westeros. We've already seen that she couldn't bring peace and freedom to Slaver's Bay through force alone. Now that she has added a Dothraki horde of hordes to her army, she might be able to. But then again, perhaps not, especially if she needs to take a sizable chunk of them west.

Two weeks ago, we learned that the White Walkers were created by the Children in order to fight humans. They are the ultimate example of a weapon that has gotten out of control, even more so than dragons.

And of course, there was the second episode, where the Free Folk came to stand up against those who had killed Jon. And yes, that involved the threat of violence (along with some actual violence). But it was done because Jon had sacrificed his reputation and ultimately his life in order to save them.

Mance Rayder put together an army of 100,000 in order to get south of the Wall, but it was Jon's sacrifice as opposed to raw strength that got them through.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

ct1 said:


> I found this ~14 minute analysis / criticism of the show/book interesting. Some book vs. show spoilerish stuff, but nothing that is a big deal if you are up to date on the show, or the books.


Even after watching the whole thing, I'm not sure what he claims the spirit of the books actually is. I know what he thinks it is not. He thinks it is NOT:

(1) Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived

(2) Bad-ass characters are bad-ass

The best I can tell is that he thinks the spirit of the books is "a critique" on violence and authoritarianism. I'm not sure how that even qualifies as "spirit". It does not even really qualify as a theme. To be a theme, it should be more along the lines of "violence and authoritarianism are ____________". But he does not tell us what they are supposed to be, and I do not think the books have, either.

At best, I think you could say the theme of the books is that pragmatism and violence are widespread in the world, and that the vast majority of the people who successfully acquire and hold power employ these Machiavellian methods. Perhaps, also, that a world dominated by these kinds of people is rather grim.

Perhaps, by the end of the books, another theme could emerge. But I certainly do not think it has done so yet. We could speculate that the theme might be something like "although violence and Machiavellian methods are prevalent in the vast majority of people successfully playing the game of thrones, it is possible for people who are less murderous, somewhat less selfish and somewhat more honorable to play the game and win if they are truly extraordinary (and lucky, and not _too_ honorable)". Of course, that is assuming that people like Dany and Jon and Bran do eventually succeed...which is obviously something we do not know yet.

I could also see the theme turning out to be that extraordinary people -- who are more honorable and less ambitious than most of those playing the game of thrones -- may successfully come to power, but they will usually sacrifice their power, and their lives, in order to save others, leaving the positions of authority in the hands of the ambitious and violent people.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think he used magic. Using prosthetics is for wannabe nobodies.
> 
> I'm not sure if Arya has yet graduated to that level, but it would be cool to have a scene like this:
> 
> I don't know if this scene would qualify as an episode ender, but I think it would be cool enough to be one.


This question of changing faces presents a challenge in the show that wasn't there in the book. Easy enough for Martin to have Arya change faces, maybe even permanently in the books, but no way they will dump one of the most popular actresses in the show. Makes me wonder if that's the way the whole face question is going in the books. If it did, the show will have to find a way around it.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> This question of changing faces presents a challenge in the show that wasn't there in the book. Easy enough for Martin to have Arya change faces, maybe even permanently in the books, but no way they will dump one of the most popular actresses in the show. Makes me wonder if that's the way the whole face question is going in the books. If it did, the show will have to find a way around it.


The show doesn't seem to shy away from getting rid of popular characters or actors so I don't think that would stop the writers from doing what they want.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

morac said:


> The show doesn't seem to shy away from getting rid of popular characters or actors so I don't think that would stop the writers from doing what they want.


It's not so much about getting rid of a popular character, but more about changing the actor that plays the popular character. It's happened with lesser characters like Daario, but I don't think they'd do it with one of the main characters.


----------

