# WMC replacement?



## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

Former Tivo user (Gen 1, 2, Directivo) but dropped them a few years ago (3?) when my tivo premiere (TCD746320) died and they wanted a couple hundred $ to replace it out of warranty. 
At that point I threw together a Windows Media Center machine and a homerun prime. Who knew I was jumping on a sinking ship. 
Looking to move back to Tivo. 
What's the popular "economical" alternative to WMC paired with a Homerun Prime and a comcast cable card servicing 2 TVs via an xbox 360 (extender)?

Since I haven't been following the Tivo evolution recently I'm not sure which units would work to replace my current setup. 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Mze

Quick breakdown of current setup:
Comcast via Cablecard (M)
HDHomerun Prime
Windows Media Center (Windows 7)
Streamed to 2 tvs via Xbox 360s


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

You'd need at least a 4 tuner unit (Premiere, Roamio or Bolt) and a TiVo Mini to replace the XBox.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

WMC could still be used with HDHomerunPrime, but the HDHomerun app is now available. I don't know if it does protected content yet, though. I had backed this on Kickstarter a year ago but gave up on it some months ago as it was still a work-in-progress.


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

Dan203 said:


> You'd need at least a 4 tuner unit (Premiere, Roamio or Bolt) and a TiVo Mini to replace the XBox.


Forgot to mention something, with WMC we can watch recorded tv from any other computer or device on the network, is that type of functionality available in the Tivo ecosystem? Or some type of streaming?

Mze


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If you want to stream to tablets or PCs you need the streaming hardware. For a Premiere or 4 tuner Roamio it's an extra device called a TiVo Stream. For a 6 tuner Roamio or a Bolt it's built in.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

You'll most likely have to drop the Xbox as an extender with anything other than WMC. If you're looking for anything that requires DRM, WMC with Windows 7/8 is really your only choice besides Tivo. They just broke WMC with Windows 10 again.

I'd suggest SageTV with the Nvidia Shield as your client. You've got Comcast so only your premium channels are DRM'd. SageTV is completely open source and works well with the HDHomeRun Prime. If the SiliconDust DVR ever becomes reality, you've got the exact hardware necessary to use it. 

I started playing with SageTV and am pretty impressed by it. It's got a Windows client but more importantly -- the androidTV miniclient. It also had hardware extenders but since they're out of production and still cost as much or more than an Nvidia Shield -- the Shield seems like the best client that you can get. 

If you can deal with 720P max resolution for any Plex media server content, the Roamio + Mini's are a great deal. The Roamio has recording issues with some of the newer H.264 Comcast channels but Tivo has a fix if they ever decide to release it. The Tivo Bolt doesn't have the H.264 issues and doesn't have the Plex 720P resolution limit but unfortunately the Mini's still do.

If you like WMC and like the control you have over your own system, you'll ultimately like SageTV. Or if not, you have options like MythTV, NextPVR, Mediaportal,etc. If you want simplicity and are sick of tweaking your PC setup -- get the Tivo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There's no reason you can't stick with WMC. I use it on four HTPCs around my house and couldn't be happier. Use the version that comes with Windows 7 since it's no longer available for download from the Microsoft Store. Your XBox extender will only work with the Windows 7 version. Install EPG123 and get a subscription to Schedules Direct for guide data at $25 per year. This allows you to get guide data from Zap2it and avoid the crappy Rovi guide.

EPG123 lets you download guide data as far as 30 days in advance, although many shows beyond 14 days will mostly just be a placeholder with generic descriptions. I set mine for 21 days and get most of my show information filled it to that point. You can configure it so that the season and episode info is included in the show title and/or the description. They've also added a search function that lets you find premieres of any new or returning shows.

WMC is the only app that allows you to record and play DRM content. This will require a cablecard tuner from SiliconDust (HDHomeRun Prime) or Ceton (no longer in production, but available on ebay dirt cheap). It looks like you've already got a Prime and Windows 7 so you're good to go. I would definitely check out EPG123. The only reason many people are dumping WMC is due to the possibility that Microsoft can pull the plug on our guide data at any time. Switching to EPG123 means you can keep using WMC indefinitely without fear of losing any guide data.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

stevel said:


> WMC could still be used with HDHomerunPrime, but the HDHomerun app is now available. I don't know if it does protected content yet, though. I had backed this on Kickstarter a year ago but gave up on it some months ago as it was still a work-in-progress.


It still does not do DRM channels. They keep saying the plan is to support it in the future, but thats already 1 year behind schedule and no progress shown towards it.


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

mlcarson said:


> You'll most likely have to drop the Xbox as an extender with anything other than WMC. If you're looking for anything that requires DRM, WMC with Windows 7/8 is really your only choice besides Tivo. They just broke WMC with Windows 10 again.
> 
> I'd suggest SageTV with the Nvidia Shield as your client. You've got Comcast so only your premium channels are DRM'd. SageTV is completely open source and works well with the HDHomeRun Prime. If the SiliconDust DVR ever becomes reality, you've got the exact hardware necessary to use it.
> 
> ...


Great info, thanks! I'll look into the Roamio and/or Bolt. Am I assuming correctly that if I pick up a used one with a lifetime sub that it is transferable since it's tied to the hardware?


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

mr.unnatural said:


> There's no reason you can't stick with WMC. I use it on four HTPCs around my house and couldn't be happier. Use the version that comes with Windows 7 since it's no longer available for download from the Microsoft Store. Your XBox extender will only work with the Windows 7 version. Install and get a subscription to Schedules Direct for guide data at $25 per year. This allows you to get guide data from Zap2it and avoid the crappy Rovi guide.
> 
> EPG123 lets you download guide data as far as 30 days in advance, although many shows beyond 14 days will mostly just be a placeholder with generic descriptions. I set mine for 21 days and get most of my show information filled it to that point. You can configure it so that the season and episode info is included in the show title and/or the description. They've also added a search function that lets you find premieres of any new or returning shows.
> 
> WMC is the only app that allows you to record and play DRM content. This will require a cablecard tuner from SiliconDust (HDHomeRun Prime) or Ceton (no longer in production, but available on ebay dirt cheap). It looks like you've already got a Prime and Windows 7 so you're good to go. I would definitely check out EPG123. The only reason many people are dumping WMC is due to the possibility that Microsoft can pull the plug on our guide data at any time. Switching to EPG123 means you can keep using WMC indefinitely without fear of losing any guide data.


Thanks for the info. I'm now wondering if a new guide would solve the recording times issue we have been having for the last several months - every show starts recording at the wrong time (usually too early) then cuts off before the end (usually more than the 10min overage limit)?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mzegeek said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm now wondering if a new guide would solve the recording times issue we have been having for the last several months - every show starts recording at the wrong time (usually too early) then cuts off before the end (usually more than the 10min overage limit)?


Have you checked your PC's clock for accuracy? Mine tends to drift after a while so I use a utility that syncs it with the atomic clock every so often.


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

mr.unnatural said:


> Have you checked your PC's clock for accuracy? Mine tends to drift after a while so I use a utility that syncs it with the atomic clock every so often.


That was my first assumption but it's accurate (also sync it with the atomic clock).
Good guess though. Thanks.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've always set my recordings to start 10 minutes before and end 10 minutes after. This was supposedly fixed with an update to WMC, but I just do it out of habit. The recording defaults are set to 10 minutes, if possible, but when I set up a series recording I'll change it to a firm 10 minutes. That option is not available in the recording default settings for some reason. It has to be set up for each individual or series recording.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've always set my recordings to start 10 minutes before and end 10 minutes after.


I thought that practice was to force back to back recordings on the same channel to use different tuners. If so, that behavior was never "fixed". You still have to do that in WMC if you want the padding to overlap on both recordings.

As for the original question, I also came from WMC, HomeRun Prime and extenders (Xboxes and Echoes). The sweet spot for me was a Roamio basic with lifetime, Stream and several Minis. These days, I'd go for a Roamio OTA with lifetime and get a cheap Roamio basic and swap out the cable card bracket.

I got all of the above second hand or refurb. So my Roamio was $300, Stream $50 and each Mini around $70. My biggest disappointment is the Stream. Although it works well for streaming to a phone or tablet, when streaming to a TV via the android app, the picture quality and reliability is pretty terrible. My Slingbox does a much better job and has been 100% reliable. So I'd recommend a Slingbox instead of a Stream. An older Slingbox typically costs the same or less than a Stream.


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

mdavej said:


> I thought that practice was to force back to back recordings on the same channel to use different tuners. If so, that behavior was never "fixed". You still have to do that in WMC if you want the padding to overlap on both recordings.
> 
> As for the original question, I also came from WMC, HomeRun Prime and extenders (Xboxes and Echoes). The sweet spot for me was a Roamio basic with lifetime, Stream and several Minis. These days, I'd go for a Roamio OTA with lifetime and get a cheap Roamio basic and swap out the cable card bracket.
> 
> I got all of the above second hand or refurb. So my Roamio was $300, Stream $50 and each Mini around $70. My biggest disappointment is the Stream. Although it works well for streaming to a phone or tablet, when streaming to a TV via the android app, the picture quality and reliability is pretty terrible. My Slingbox does a much better job and has been 100% reliable. So I'd recommend a Slingbox instead of a Stream. An older Slingbox typically costs the same or less than a Stream.


Great info! Can you elaborate or point me to an explanation of swapping out the cablecard bracket on the Roamio? What does that accomplish? I am completely new to these models.

For 2 TVs I would be looking at a Roamio (TV1) and a Mini (TV2)? Then to stream to other devices I should explore a slingbox?

Thanks for the help.

Mze


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

The OTA with lifetime is currently $360 at Best Buy which is significantly cheaper than a Basic. Unfortunately, the OTA has no place to plug in a cable card. That's why you need a donor Basic unit to get the bracket from. 

If you don't mind paying more, you could just get a working Roamio Basic with lifetime from craigslist or ebay rather than the OTA.

If you don't mind paying a monthly subscription fee, then a Bolt is the best option.

There is a thread around here somewhere able swapping the bracket which you should be able to find by searching bracket.

As I said, Stream is ok for streaming to phones/tablets. For streaming to another TV or computer outside the home, Slingbox is better. I have a 350 that I got from Amazon for a little over $50.

For 2 TVs, one Roamio and one Mini is fine. I have several Minis, one of which is dedicated mostly to my Slingbox so viewers at home don't have to watch the same thing I'm watching on the road.

Having said all that, Tivo is switching to Rovi just as WMC did several months ago. So if that's one of the reasons you're switching, you can take that off your list.

I really like not having to tinker with my system constantly as I did with WMC (updating logos, rolling back Windows updates, rebooting, managing sleep/wake issues, pairing extenders, etc.).


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## mzegeek (Aug 15, 2016)

mdavej said:


> The OTA with lifetime is currently $360 at Best Buy which is significantly cheaper than a Basic. Unfortunately, the OTA has no place to plug in a cable card. That's why you need a donor Basic unit to get the bracket from.
> 
> If you don't mind paying more, you could just get a working Roamio Basic with lifetime from craigslist or ebay rather than the OTA.
> 
> ...


Great info! I really miss not having to "work" at home just to keep the TV running (I'm an IT professional by day). My goal for switching from Tivo was to drop the monthly fee so I'll be exploring the lifetime options. Looks like I'll be starting with a OTA Roamio (modded) and a Mini while I look into a slingbox. 
Thanks!
Mze


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mdavej said:


> The OTA with lifetime is currently $360 at Best Buy which is significantly cheaper than a Basic.


same as amazon current price with free shipping:
https://www.amazon.com/TiVo-Roamio-OTA-DVR-Compatible/dp/B01DR4T73Q



mdavej said:


> If you don't mind paying more, you could just get a working Roamio Basic with lifetime from craigslist or ebay rather than the OTA.


:up: on shopping for a used deal, since tivo i believe will stand behind a used one if you have problems down the line and offer you a replacement. Is it $50 to swap for refurb on a roamio? I think I've seen posts to that effect. someone on here will know. or search "warranty" replacement refurb - things like that and posts should come up.



mdavej said:


> If you don't mind paying a monthly subscription fee, then a Bolt is the best option.


for comparison, I believe Tivo offers Refurb 500GB Bolt with All in for $699.00



mdavej said:


> There is a thread around here somewhere able swapping the bracket which you should be able to find by searching bracket.


this is the big thread on that topic:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10940033#post10940033

and there are probably more like this one:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=542323



mdavej said:


> As I said, Stream is ok for streaming to phones/tablets. For streaming to another TV or computer outside the home, Slingbox is better. I have a 350 that I got from Amazon for a little over $50.


if you search streaming and sling, you will find similar opinions saying sling is better. mdavej, the 350 doesn't come with any streaming channels does it? any subscription that is part of the hardware and bundled? or is that just channelmaster with sling where channels are bundled? and what sling models are best to pair with tivo? others to consider besides 350?



mdavej said:


> I really like not having to tinker with my system constantly as I did with WMC (updating logos, rolling back Windows updates, rebooting, managing sleep/wake issues, pairing extenders, etc.).


as far as non-tivo / tinkering options, there is this news:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/16/hdhomeruns-dvr-app-is-ready-for-the-xbox-one/


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

tivoyahoo said:


> ........
> 
> if you search streaming and sling, you will find similar opinions saying sling is better. mdavej, the 350 doesn't come with any streaming channels does it? any subscription that is part of the hardware and bundled? or is that just channelmaster with sling where channels are bundled? and what sling models are best to pair with tivo? others to consider besides 350?......


No, the 350 doesn't have any streaming channels. I believe only the 500 does, and it also has an HDMI input, but it complies with HDCP, so you probably need one of those HDMI DAs/splitters/switchers that strip that off. Other good options for a Slingbox are the M1, M2 and the aforementioned 500.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tivoyahoo said:


> mdavej, the 350 doesn't come with any streaming channels does it? any subscription that is part of the hardware and bundled? or is that just channelmaster with sling where channels are bundled? and what sling models are best to pair with tivo? others to consider besides 350?


A Slingbox is just a dumb black box that puts whatever audio/video you plug into it on the internet and blasts IR remote commands back to whatever box you want to control. It has no other capabilities. There is no subscription fee. The ad supported phone app is free, no ads costs a few bucks. Think of Slingbox as Remote Desktop for TV.

I don't know which Slingbox is best for any particular purpose. I only chose the 350 because it was cheap. It has component inputs only. More expensive models have HDMI.

I have both Slingbox and Stream and use both. I use Stream with my phone and the Slingbox with my Fire TV. But if I had to choose only one, I'd go with the Slingbox.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Swapping out the cablecard bracket is relatively simple, but you have to be careful not to bend the pins when inserting it into the socket on the mainboard. 

1. Turn the Tivo upside down and open the panel on the bottom of the Tivo. It just clips in place so no special tools are require to remove it.

2. Using a small-tipped Philips screwdriver, remove the two screws securing the long legs of the bracket.

3, Loosen the two screws securing the connector end of the bracket. These screws are captured so they do not need to be completely removed and will remain attached to the bracket.

4. Grasp both sides of the bracket at each end of the connector and pull it straight up. If you can't get it loose the carefully pry up each end with a thin bladed screwdriver until you can detach the connector by hand.

5. To install the connector, carefully line up the pins with the mainboard socket. DO NOT PRESS DOWN ON THE CONNECTOR UNTIL YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THAT THE CONNECTOR IS ALIGNED PROPERLY!!! IF YOU PRESS DOWN WITHOUT THE PINS BEING ALIGNED YOU WILL LIKELY DAMAGE THE CONNECTOR, RENDERING THE BRACKET USELESS. The pins are brittle and can easily snap off if bent too much.

6. When you're sure you have the pins aligned with the socket, press down on the connector with both thumbs and apply even pressure so that it goes in straight.

7. Secure the connector end of the bracket with the two captive screws.

8. Install the two remaining screws and tighten until snug.

9. Install your cablecard and reinstall the cover on the bottom of the Tivo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> I really like not having to tinker with my system constantly as I did with WMC (updating logos, rolling back Windows updates, rebooting, managing sleep/wake issues, pairing extenders, etc.).


What tinkering? I did that when I first started building HTPCs because I wanted all of the cool bells and whistles. I quickly learned that the KISS principal was the best. If you're constantly tinkering with your HTPC then you're doing something wrong. I've set up dozens of HTPCs and just set 'em and forget 'em. Tinkering is no longer a requirement. Chances are you'll only make things worse if you try.

There's no need to update logos unless you really feel the need. It's a simple process that doesn't require any "tinkering" other than running a simple app.

Why would you need to roll back Windows updates? The safest thing to do is simply ignore all of them except for the security updates so it doesn't change a working system.

I leave my HTPC on 24/7 to avoid these issues. Trying to get a HTPC to wake properly is akin to black magic at times so it's best left alone.

Extenders suck, period. Never liked 'em, never will. They do what they're designed to do, but I just never liked the way they work. The video always seemed washed out to me and the reaction time to remote commands wasn't always instantaneous. I always got network error messages when using them and just got sick of it. I've used extenders from Linksys, HP, Ceton, and XBox and didn't like any of them.

I use dedicated Intel NUCs at each TV with the exception of my main TV. I'm on FIOS so I only have to deal with DRM issues on a handful of channels. Recordings made on my primary HTPC can be played on any other HTPC.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> What tinkering? I did that when I first started building HTPCs because I wanted all of the cool bells and whistles. I quickly learned that the KISS principal was the best. If you're constantly tinkering with your HTPC then you're doing something wrong. I've set up dozens of HTPCs and just set 'em and forget 'em. Tinkering is no longer a requirement. Chances are you'll only make things worse if you try.
> 
> There's no need to update logos unless you really feel the need. It's a simple process that doesn't require any "tinkering" other than running a simple app.
> 
> ...


Well, let's call it optimizing instead of tinkering. Yes, I can never leave well enough alone until it's perfect, and it never was with WMC.

I wanted updates, so I left them on, and as a result got burned now and then. My own fault, I know. But as mine was a multipurpose box used for web browsing and other streaming, wanted to keep it updated.

My provider was constantly adding channels, hence lots of logo updates. Yes, they're eye candy only, but I liked them.

And of course, the memory leak on my Ceton tuners required a random, quasi-monthly reboot.

My extenders worked well most of the time, but not 100% like my Minis.

Bottom line, with Tivo, I have a lot more free time and a no phone calls from home when there's a glitch, because there's never been a glitch with my Tivos so far.

I could go back to WMC if I had to, but I dread resorting to that. Hope Tivo survives the Rovi switch and I can keep it indefinitely.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Dave and I are in the exact same boat wrt WMC vs. Tivo. Been there, done that, have no desire to go backwards to WMC. And that's really what it is now with MS' abandonment of the product.

Yes I know, WMC has more capabilities yada yada yada. I don't care, Tivo + Minis just works and can actually be cheaper to buy than a WMC whole-home setup. It sure as hell is easier to run for the whole family.


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

Mzegeek,
I found myself in a very similar situation recently. I was a long time tivo user (Series 2, DirecTivo, and multiple tivo HD units) and made the switch to WMC several years ago because of tivo fees. Used XB360 and media center extenders with WMC to distribute content throughout the house. It was awesome (for a time). However, my reason for moving back to tivo had a lot more to do with a "shift" in the way we are getting content, a desire to cut the cord and save money, and seeing WMC as a "sinking ship" (no new apps, netflix app is ancient, not supported in newest OS, etc..). I am also an IT professional by trade, and the HTPC seemed to be on its last legs. I explored the idea of building a new HTPC or fixing it and using kodi or some other software, but I just didn't want to deal with it and eventually I decided to go back to TiVo. This is sort of the "order of events" that lead me back to TiVo:
1) We started using netflix a LOT
2) Realized when we watched TV, we rarely watched anything other than the major networks, so we backed our cable package down to "basic broadcast".
3) Blu-ray player netflix app works better than WMC netflix app, TV starts parking on BR player more than HTPC.
4) Determined that we needed faster internet for various reasons. Decided to upgrade internet, cancel cable all together, and supplement with hulu (as it has MOST of the content we want anyway).
5) Just a few weeks left to update HTPC to Windows 10. Not using WMC anymore so why not? HTPC is now working better than ever... still use kodi for watching ripped DVD library.
6) Happy for a while, but now most of our content is fragmented among multiple apps. Football season is getting ready to start... don't have any local channels. Need a better solution. No gameshows on hulu? oh well...
7) Start looking at an antenna... will need a DVR also. Looked at roamio OTA with lifetime. Onepass looks like it also will solve our "fragmented" sources problem.
8) Lucked up and had a coworker GIVE me a roamio 500GB with LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION he wasn't using.
9) Throw a party (Not really, but wow... kinda hit the jackpot with #8).
10) Installed rooftop antenna, HD quality is better than I ever saw on cable. I'm a happy camper...

So here I am, back in the world of TiVo. Right now we are working crazy hours and the only room in the house we watch TV in is the living room. I might look at tivo minis later if I need to extend to other rooms. I'm also playing with plex to get my ripped DVD library (stored on HTPC computer) accessible from the tivo.
So far things are working well. I pay for Netflix and Hulu plus my internet connection (now I get 100mbps) and have access to basically everything I want. I feel like I'm saving a fair amount of $.
I would urge you to take a serious look at your cable TV package and see if you can get what you want through other sources. We are undergoing a major shift in how content is being delivered. I think the days of CATV are numbered.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Well, let's call it optimizing instead of tinkering. Yes, I can never leave well enough alone until it's perfect, and it never was with WMC.


I understand. It's hard not to want to play with your new toy. I used to do the same thing because there were so many cool add-ons and apps you could install. I don't use any of them anymore with but few exceptions. A barebones minimalist HTPC is a happy HTPC.



> I wanted updates, so I left them on, and as a result got burned now and then. My own fault, I know. But as mine was a multipurpose box used for web browsing and other streaming, wanted to keep it updated.


And therein lies the bulk of your problem. Allowing updates to install without monitoring them is just asking for trouble, as you now know. Using a HTPC as anything other than a media playback device is also asking for trouble. Mine are all dedicated to TV viewing and movie playback, with just one HTPC used for recording. They all just keep humming along and are virtually trouble-free.



> My provider was constantly adding channels, hence lots of logo updates. Yes, they're eye candy only, but I liked them.


That shouldn't have caused you any issues whatsoever



> And of course, the memory leak on my Ceton tuners required a random, quasi-monthly reboot.


I can't say that I ever noticed this with my Ceton InfiniTV4s or 6, but I did install selective updates and usually had to reboot so I probably corrected it without ever knowing it.



> My extenders worked well most of the time, but not 100% like my Minis.


I've never used minis, but I hated using extenders.



> Bottom line, with Tivo, I have a lot more free time and a no phone calls from home when there's a glitch, because there's never been a glitch with my Tivos so far.


I can't argue that Tivos are essentially trouble-free when compared to WMC. I rarely have issues with my HTPCs and wifey has learned that most issues she has are corrected by a simple reboot of the HTPC. It's taken a long time, but I've got her about 95% trained in the proper use of WMC. That doesn't mean she doesn't have issues with it on occasion, but the fix is usually something quite simple like rebooting my SD HDHR Prime tuner.



> I could go back to WMC if I had to, but I dread resorting to that. Hope Tivo survives the Rovi switch and I can keep it indefinitely.


I have the complete opposite view. I love WMC and don't want to resort to going back to Tivo. I've got a lot invested in my setup. Both platforms have their pros and cons and the scale is generally tipped one way or the other depending on how you watch TV. The biggest thing I dislike about Tivo is having to pay a monthly or lifetime fee to use a box I already own. That, plus you never know when Tivo is going to discontinue support for a given model or stop letting me activate a used box. You also have absolutely no control over installing updates like you do with WMC, and Tivo has issued some funky updates over the years that have not made their customers happy. A series 3 Tivo still works perfectly fine on any digital cable or FIOS network, but Tivo won't activate them anymore. Lifetime is only for the lifetime of the box. Lifetime for my HTPC is for as long as I can keep it up and running or installing Windows 7 on a new PC.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

The Rovi guide data switch is going to be what finally kills Tivo for me just like it did for WMC. If you can do without DRM, there are other HTPC solutions out there that can use Schedules Direct for Tribune/Gracenote guide data rather than Rovi guide data. There's a workaround for that in WMC too via EPG123 but I think its time to move on to something new. Maybe Tivo will actually be able to be responsive to the Rovi problems since they'll be the same company but I doubt it. I see the same type of issues a year after the WMC cutover to Rovi so it doesn't look good for Tivo.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> ......... That, plus you never know when Tivo is going to discontinue support .......


Oh, you mean like Microsoft did with WMC and Gracenote?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> I have the complete opposite view. I love WMC and don't want to resort to going back to Tivo.


Our differences could be a matter of timing as well. I've never had Tivo until recently. As soon as I switched from WMC to Tivo, they had a fantastic price and added tons of new features. But years ago when I first got WMC I had tons of headaches. Primes didn't work very well back then, and neither did any Ceton stuff. Getting sleep/wake working reliably literally took me years and several PCs. Commskip was complicated and unreliable. So I was paddling upstream with WMC for about 5 years. Tivo worked out of the box with zero effort on my part and just kept getting better.

Quick question, if logo updates are a non-issue, how do you keep yours up to date with no effort? I probably built 200 or so logos from scratch over the years. I've never had to make or update any logos for Tivo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

HarperVision said:


> Oh, you mean like Microsoft did with WMC and Gracenote?


Not at all. Microsoft is still supporting WMC by providing guide data. They just stopped any further development of the product. Many people see this as the death of WMC, whereas I'm perfectly content with it the way it is and will continue to use it until I can no longer access my programming via current distribution methods. I am unfamiliar with Gracenote so I can't make any comments on it. UltimateTV might have been a better analogy. A superior DVR to the DirecTivo in many ways, but completely unreliable hardware. Tivo just stopped supporting the S1 Tivo and won't allow you to activate any unit older than a Premiere. Completely different situations. The only thing you need to activate with Microsoft is your Windows license. Both products require activation of a cablecard with your provider.

EPG123 allows you to sever ties with Microsoft completely so their lack of future development or even potential loss of support/guide data has become irrelevant. If Tivo cuts off your guide data you're completely screwed. Of course, now that Rovi has acquired Tivo, that scenario is not likely to happen.



mdavej said:


> Our differences could be a matter of timing as well. I've never had Tivo until recently. As soon as I switched from WMC to Tivo, they had a fantastic price and added tons of new features. But years ago when I first got WMC I had tons of headaches. Primes didn't work very well back then, and neither did any Ceton stuff. Getting sleep/wake working reliably literally took me years and several PCs. Commskip was complicated and unreliable. So I was paddling upstream with WMC for about 5 years. Tivo worked out of the box with zero effort on my part and just kept getting better.
> 
> Quick question, if logo updates are a non-issue, how do you keep yours up to date with no effort? I probably built 200 or so logos from scratch over the years. I've never had to make or update any logos for Tivo.


You're confusing a hobbyists' device with a commercial product. If you don't want something you have to fuss with to get it the way you want then a Tivo is what you want. Lots of people like something they can tweak to get it how they want it and not some canned configuration put together by a marketing department. They are two complete separate and unique products with similar functions aimed at two different and totally diverse markets. Tivos are for people that want all the bells and whistles they can't get with their cableco DVRs but don't want to have to go through any complicated setup or maintenance. HTPCs are for those that like to push the envelope and go beyond what a commercial product delivers.

Logo updates are a non-issue for me because I simply don't update them. I only use them to help me identify a channel quickly and easily. The only time I use the guide is when I'm setting up a recording or searching for a particular program. I said they're a non-issue because running the logo updater should have little or no effect on the operation of WMC, unlike some other apps or add-ons.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Neither of us is going to convince the other to switch back, so I don't want to drag this out much longer. If Microsoft brought back WMC, added Win 10 support and paid me to use it, I still wouldn't go back mainly because of Rovi. But my reasons for using Tivo or WMC are not at all what you posted. I always seek the optimal solution. 5 years ago, Tivo was not optimal because it was far too expensive and lacked many features I was accustomed to. Cable company DVR wasn't optimal because it was both inferior and too expensive. WMC was optimal since it was the lowest price and had the features I wanted. When I got Tivo years later, it was on par with the cost of a PC and tuner and required less time and effort to maintain and had a very similar feature set. So at that moment, it was optimal. Doesn't matter if I'm a hobbyist or not. I'll do whatever it takes to make the optimal solution function properly. WMC is not optimal anymore. Rovi, primarily, ruined it. Alternative guide solutions cost more than Tivo. So the logical conclusion is obvious. Whether Rovi also ruins Tivo remains to be seen. If they do destroy Tivo, I'll get a Channel Master and PS Vue.

I don't know the target market of either. But that's irrelevant. I probably don't fit Tivo's target market anyway. They want steady subscribers. I'll never pay a subscription fee if I can help it. I'm using Tivo only because it is the optimal solution for my current needs, budget and requirements.

Saying logos are a non-issue because you don't use them isn't helpful. They are an issue because they take many hours to maintain. Updating them in the background is nothing. It's the hours of searching and image editing. In any case, that was only a single example of one time consuming task for WMC that takes no time at all with Tivo.

Yes, I could build a sub-optimal WMC appliance nearly on par with Tivo. But such a device would fail to satisfy all my requirements.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Like others in this thread, I'm evaluating my options for a TV viewing system going forward, although since my needs probably include an OTA DVR (and definitely do not include a cable DVR), I have more options. Right now I use a Roamio OTA plus a 3rd gen Apple TV.

I'm hopeful that Silicon Dust's HDHomeRun DVR will get out of beta and be a finished product soon, although I think it's up in the air whether they will ever be able to support encrypted CableCARD channels (which, again, isn't a problem for me). Looks like that solution will be available on a number of different hardware platforms.

The Channels app for the current (4th gen) Apple TV (which is third-party front-end for Silicon Dust network tuners) looks slick and they're working on adding DVR functionality there. They currently expect to roll out the beta this fall with v 1.0 hitting in Jan. 2017.

There are rumors that the next version of Amazon Fire TV will either include an OTA tuner or offer native support for external tuners. Perhaps that will integrate with a live streaming TV service from Amazon?

Lastly, it appears that Google is adding DVR functionality (or at least controls/hooks) to their native Live Channels app in the next version (7.0) of Android TV, which is about to roll out. Based on a Google talk at this spring's I/O conference, it sounds like Google is building driver support into Android TV to support at least one USB ATSC 1.0 tuner. Not sure if Google would provide direct DVR support for that or if one would need to subscribe to that through a third party app, which could then link to Live Channels as the front-end. (Silicon Dust is working to integrate their own HD HomeRun DVR software in that way with Live Channels.) Given that Google announced awhile back that they will begin showcasing live TV listings in the US in their search results and the Android UI, it looks like they may have all the pieces in place to offer simple DVR service themselves on Android TV if they want to go that route.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mdavej said:


> WMC is not optimal anymore. Rovi, primarily, ruined it. Alternative guide solutions cost more than Tivo. So the logical conclusion is obvious. Whether Rovi also ruins Tivo remains to be seen. If they do destroy Tivo, I'll get a Channel Master and PS Vue.


What alternative guide service providers exist for WMC? and what is the subscription cost? EPG123 for example - $50/annually ? and that covers an entire household, right? all your hardware devices on the network? unlike tivo where subscriptions are per box (except mini).

What guide data provider does Channel Master use? I presume you are locked into that provider with CM, but no subscription fees, other than if you want to upgrade the Sling service I suppose. Does it come with some sort of basic sling package that you can then upgrade through sling? and how is the sling channel guide integrated into the CM UI? do you launch vue separately as an app? like launching hulu on tivo? or is it all seamless like another channel added into your lineup?


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Schedules direct subscription is $25/year and uses the Tribune/Gracenote data that Tivo has been using. That's less expensive than the Tivo guide data.

I'm putting together the SageTV system that I mentioned in the 6th post. I ordered the Nvidia Shield for $163.76 from Jet.com and a new Logitech Harmony 650 remote and Flirc from Amazon.com for $79.30. I already had everything else that I'd need in the system.

I won't be able to get the DRM'd movie channels from the cable TV provider but can get them via streaming services or providers like sling.com or maybe even through playon.tv. I'm not really too concerned about it since there's also Netflix.

For somebody that just wants non-DRM'd channels, a nice DVR, and non-Rovi sourced guide data -- this should fit the bill. Or at least I'm going to find out in the next couple weeks.



tivoyahoo said:


> What alternative guide service providers exist for WMC? and what is the subscription cost? EPG123 for example - $50/annually ? and that covers an entire household, right? all your hardware devices on the network? unlike tivo where subscriptions are per box (except mini).
> 
> What guide data provider does Channel Master use? I presume you are locked into that provider with CM, but no subscription fees, other than if you want to upgrade the Sling service I suppose. Does it come with some sort of basic sling package that you can then upgrade through sling? and how is the sling channel guide integrated into the CM UI? do you launch vue separately as an app? like launching hulu on tivo? or is it all seamless like another channel added into your lineup?


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mlcarson said:


> Schedules direct subscription is $25/year and uses the Tribune/Gracenote data that Tivo has been using. That's less expensive than the Tivo guide data.


yes, especially if it covers all your boxes on your network. sounds like mr. unnatural is running multiple htpc's each running its own install of WMC. So would $25 cover all the htpc boxes on the network? or is that $25/per year/per install? is EPG123 a freeware utility that you use with the subscription? or how much is that part of it? and it's installed on each htpc/wmc box?

With Schedules direct subscription, can you use it with sage or wmc? so you can run the same guide data on either platform?



mlcarson said:


> I'm putting together the SageTV system that I mentioned in the 6th post. I ordered the Nvidia Shield for $163.76 from Jet.com and a new Logitech Harmony 650 remote and Flirc from Amazon.com for $79.30. I already had everything else that I'd need in the system.


:up: nice price on the Shield.
SD Prime 3 tuner setup?
What OS are you using for Sage? is it going to be a dedicated htpc?
so is that a 2 room / 2 tv setup?
is flirc a network remote control box? so how many devices would you be controlling via remote? the shield and the sage htpc (which controls the Prime)?

am wondering what your thoughts are on the SD Xbox One App?
https://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=42462
does the xbox one take the place of the htpc? would xbox one only integrate with a wmc htpc and not sage? is that a reason why you are going shield, because you want sage? what about for someone who wanted a xbox one or ps4 on their network and in one of the rooms as a client? will either one integrate with sage?



mlcarson said:


> For somebody that just wants non-DRM'd channels, a nice DVR, and non-Rovi sourced guide data -- this should fit the bill. Or at least I'm going to find out in the next couple weeks.


sounds good. look forward to hearing more.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Schedules direct can be used with EPG123 (ie WMC) or SageTV. I believe EPG123 is freeware but I don't need it for SageTV.

The EPG data is only on the server so one subscription is enough. The Nvidia Shield behaves as an HD300 extender via the SageTV mini app. The Flirc goes on the Nvidia Shield via a USB port. The Logitech Harmony 650 remote uses the native IR receiver on the Nvidia Shield for some codes and the Flirc for others (and turns them into keyboard keystrokes). The remote controls the Shield which in turn controls the server which controls the HDHomerun prime via OpenDCT (open source digital cable tuner). 

My server is currently a 64-bit Windows 10 server. I'll add another HDHomerun Prime if I actually replace my Tivo equipment for 6 tuners so that it's equivalent to my Roamio Pro. 

I don't really know anything about the Xbox One app. I suspect it's a client for the SiliconDust DVR. The Nvidia Shield is also a SD DVR client and I think it's their preferred hardware. I don't have an Xbox One and do any gaming on my PC. The Nvidia Shield is a little cheaper and kind of built for TV. To my knowledge, SageTV supports Linux, Windows, OSX, and Android but not game consoles.

There are other options like NextPVR, MythTV, and Emby backends. The Nvidia shield is reportedly stable with Plex and SageTV which will be the apps I primarily will use. For an Xbox one, You should probably be looking more at NextPVR or going back to WMC. I like SageTV in principle because it's open source and was formerly a commercial product so has the features you'd expect in a DVR. The Silicondust people should have started with the SageTV code rather than starting from scratch.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> Schedules direct subscription is $25/year and uses the Tribune/Gracenote data that Tivo has been using. That's less expensive than the Tivo guide data.


I pay $0/year for Tivo, so that's cheaper than Schedules direct.


> I'm putting together the SageTV system that I mentioned in the 6th post. I ordered the Nvidia Shield for $163.76 from Jet.com and a new Logitech Harmony 650 remote and Flirc from Amazon.com for $79.30. I already had everything else that I'd need in the system.


If you want to save a little next time, so-called refurbished 650's run less than $40 and are good as new. The $16 Nevo C2 is even better and cheaper (18 devices vs. 8, bigger/better screen, editable macros, every command can have an icon, import pronto hex, etc.).


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tivoyahoo said:


> What guide data provider does Channel Master use? I presume you are locked into that provider with CM, but no subscription fees, other than if you want to upgrade the Sling service I suppose. Does it come with some sort of basic sling package that you can then upgrade through sling? and how is the sling channel guide integrated into the CM UI? do you launch vue separately as an app? like launching hulu on tivo? or is it all seamless like another channel added into your lineup?


I take it all back. I did some more digging, and CM apparently also uses Rovi. So there is no escape  I guess I have no choice but to go back to WMC and pony up for guide data if Rovi kills Tivo.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mdavej said:


> I take it all back. I did some more digging, and CM apparently also uses Rovi. So there is no escape  I guess I have no choice but to go back to WMC and pony up for guide data if Rovi kills Tivo.


thanks. good digging on the above and below.



mdavej said:


> TVGuide.com and Dish guide data looks different. So it appears that Dish doesn't use Rovi.
> 
> https://www.mydish.com/guide
> http://www.tvguide.com/listings/


So are Dish and DirecTV both escape routes from Rovi?

And how are Sling and ps vue channels populated with guide data?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tivoyahoo said:


> So are Dish and DirecTV both escape routes from Rovi?


Not sure about DirecTV. But both cost a fortune compared to Tivo. Been there, done that. I'll live with Rovi issues rather than pay an additional $80/month with satellite ($15-$20 for DVR service plus $7 per TV plus packages more expensive than cable).



> And how are Sling and ps vue channels populated with guide data?


I have no idea. But it doesn't matter since they don't rely on the data for recording. Sling can't record at all, and Vue is all on demand from the cloud. There are no schedules or new/rerun flags to contend with. If you mark a show as a favorite on Vue, you have access to all airings from the past 30 days. You have to sort through reruns yourself.

My biggest concerns with Rovi are the new/rerun flags (or OADs) being missing/wrong, less guide data in general (missing/wrong cover art, poor/generic episode descriptions, missing cast/crew details, wrong season/episode data, and slow response to lineup changes). None of those are fatal, but would make Tivo as unpleasant to use as WMC was after the Rovi switch.

We'll know soon enough.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Well, that required purchasing a lifetime subscription or an all-in plan. The All-in is currently priced at $550 so your breakeven period is 22 years. Even the original lifetime pricing had a 10 year breakeven.

The first remote I wanted was a Logitech 650 since somebody has already made everything work with that. My next one might be something different as I learn more. That $16 Nevo C2 is $45 on Amazon and is discontinued so not much of a difference. The 650 had lots of good reviews so is probably not a bad choice. If the refurbished ones were actually by the manufacturer, I'd probably go that way but I'm not so sure what Amazon means by certified refurbished in this case.



mdavej said:


> I pay $0/year for Tivo, so that's cheaper than Schedules direct.
> If you want to save a little next time, so-called refurbished 650's run less than $40 and are good as new. The $16 Nevo C2 is even better and cheaper (18 devices vs. 8, bigger/better screen, editable macros, every command can have an icon, import pronto hex, etc.).


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> Well, that required purchasing a lifetime subscription or an all-in plan. The All-in is currently priced at $550 so your breakeven period is 22 years. Even the original lifetime pricing had a 10 year breakeven.
> 
> The first remote I wanted was a Logitech 650 since somebody has already made everything work with that. My next one might be something different as I learn more. That $16 Nevo C2 is $45 on Amazon and is discontinued so not much of a difference. The 650 had lots of good reviews so is probably not a bad choice. If the refurbished ones were actually by the manufacturer, I'd probably go that way but I'm not so sure what Amazon means by certified refurbished in this case.


My last Roamio included lifetime for $299. Depending on how much of that you attribute to the hardware vs. the subscription, could be from 0 to 12 years break even. Since my WMC related hardware with the same functionality cost me $300, I valued the Tivo hardware at $300, hence 0 year break even in my estimation. I agree you'd be crazy to go for lifetime on a new Bolt. I would never have paid the original lifetime price either.

C2 was discontinued years ago. There are lots of great things that are discontinued. The Harmony One still has a huge following as does Pronto. But the Nevo is still the best remote value around since it's currently discounted about 90% and we wrote our own excellent programming software for it, far superior to Logitech's myharmony crap. Not a good idea to pay triple the going price on Amazon when they're $16 shipped on ebay. I grabbed 20 of these remotes when they dropped to such low prices. I'll be discontinued before I run out of Nevos.

In any case the 650 is a fine remote. Just offering a better, cheaper alternative.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Neither of us is going to convince the other to switch back, so I don't want to drag this out much longer. If Microsoft brought back WMC, added Win 10 support and paid me to use it, I still wouldn't go back mainly because of Rovi. But my reasons for using Tivo or WMC are not at all what you posted. I always seek the optimal solution. 5 years ago, Tivo was not optimal because it was far too expensive and lacked many features I was accustomed to. Cable company DVR wasn't optimal because it was both inferior and too expensive. WMC was optimal since it was the lowest price and had the features I wanted. When I got Tivo years later, it was on par with the cost of a PC and tuner and required less time and effort to maintain and had a very similar feature set. So at that moment, it was optimal. Doesn't matter if I'm a hobbyist or not. I'll do whatever it takes to make the optimal solution function properly. WMC is not optimal anymore. Rovi, primarily, ruined it. Alternative guide solutions cost more than Tivo. So the logical conclusion is obvious. Whether Rovi also ruins Tivo remains to be seen. If they do destroy Tivo, I'll get a Channel Master and PS Vue.
> 
> I don't know the target market of either. But that's irrelevant. I probably don't fit Tivo's target market anyway. They want steady subscribers. I'll never pay a subscription fee if I can help it. I'm using Tivo only because it is the optimal solution for my current needs, budget and requirements.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. I've learned that to be a complete waste of time to try and sway anyone to my way of thinking in a public forum. It's all good. I'm only trying to explain the pros and cons of using WMC as to how it relates to the past and the present. EPG123 takes both Rovi and Microsoft out of the equation. I don't see how $25 per year for a Schedules Direct subscription tips the scale and makes it more expensive than a Tivo. EPG123 is absolutely free unless you want to give a donation to the developer. You set it up once and it updates the guide data automatically at a time of your choosing. I pay for a single subscription and I believe it is valid for up to five HTPCs. Getting rid of Rovi and adding the extra features offered by EPG123 is more than worth the cost.

Maintaining logos is clearly a pet peeve of yours and not something most WMC users would do at anywhere near the same level that you do. I installed mine once and never gave it a second thought. You're using something that you are clearly anally retentive about as an excuse why you dumped WMC, which is completely ludicrous. The channels I watch or record from all have logos, with but a few exceptions, so I'm fine with it as is.



mdavej said:


> I pay $0/year for Tivo, so that's cheaper than Schedules direct.


That may be true technically, but the "free" guide data you get from Tivo/Rovi is useless without the Tivo service, which costs you much more than a Schedules Direct subscription.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

TiVo is vastly improved from when I left it (Series 2) for WMC. 

When Micro$oft abandoned WMC, I thought long and hard, and did a whole hog switch.

1) switched from satellite to digital cable, as no DVR other than satellite's own work with satellite.
2) Dumped WMC for a Roamio plus I got as part of the loyalty deal, with lifetime. It was a bit expensive, but I plan to sell off HTPC's to offset some of the cost.
3) Purchased a TiVo mini for the master bedroom.
This would have been enough (6 tuners), and I could have purchased another mini for the spare bedroom, but I found a Roamio OTA lifetime cheap on amazon and put that in the spare bedroom, and upgraded it to 3tb.

Can watch content from either TiVo on any other TiVo, I can stream content from either TiVo's on any PC in the house (although not using remote control).

Can download, remove commercials, and archive or compress to PC-compatible files using kmttg (great program!).

Skip mode is GREAT! Have I mentioned that SKIP MODE IS GREAT! If nothing else justifies the switch to TiVo, skip mode does!

Still have one old HTPC pushing IR to the cable box and recording some stuff just in case, but I haven't switched to it in months.

WMC's movie feature I have implemented with Plex, seems to work OK.


What have I lost? The same interface on any TV in the house, and any PC in the house, because they were either running WMC or could run WMC. The ability to stream to PC's with remote control access. Native PC compatible show storage. That's about it. 

Call me a (formerly grudging) convert!

Snedecor


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

snedecor said:


> Skip mode is GREAT! Have I mentioned that SKIP MODE IS GREAT! If nothing else justifies the switch to TiVo, skip mode does!


You do realize you can do the same thing with WMC, right? Any WMC remote can do a 30-second skip by default and there are several commercial mapping apps that work reasonably well. File transfers don't require any special apps and the same editing programs you use with .tivo files work with WMC recordings as well. In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs. The only exception is sharing protected content between PCs or mapping commercials on said programs. Any program flagged as copy freely can be shared or edited.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> You do realize you can do the same thing with WMC, right? Any WMC remote can do a 30-second skip by default and there are several commercial mapping apps that work reasonably well. File transfers don't require any special apps and the same editing programs you use with .tivo files work with WMC recordings as well. In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs. The only exception is sharing protected content between PCs or mapping commercials on said programs. Any program flagged as copy freely can be shared or edited.


SkipMode isn't 30 second skip and is significant, most people don't understand until they have used it.

Saying "In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs" and then saying that statement isn't true, is fairly comical.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He's good like that - misinformation about how WMC can do everything Tivo can do, and then some. Skip Mode is a perfect example because you CAN'T do that 100% accurately on WMC. Quick Play is another one you can't do.

Doesn't really matter, no one's going to change their mind here.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> Maintaining logos is clearly a pet peeve of yours and not something most WMC users would do at anywhere near the same level that you do. I installed mine once and never gave it a second thought. You're using something that you are clearly anally retentive about as an excuse why you dumped WMC, which is completely ludicrous. The channels I watch or record from all have logos, with but a few exceptions, so I'm fine with it as is.


I use MyChannelLogos Version 2 to do logo population and it's is quick, simple and complete.


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> Quick Play is another one you can't do.


I have experienced Quick Play on WMC on occasion... however I was never able to control when it actually happened... haha (it appeared to be a bug). We always had to stop the show and restart it to get it to play back at the correct speed.

Also, the way I see it, I include the price of the lifetime subscription in with the price of the hardware. We are going to forget, for now, that I got my roamio with lifetime for free from a friend, and base my opinion on what I was "prepared to spend". I figured I could spend either $399 on a TiVo OTA, OR build a new HTPC (realistically I'm not sure $399 would go very far with an HTPC, so it probably would have been at least $600, but we will be conservative and assume the price is the same). With either option, I have a somewhat large investment upfront and no monthly fees. I could care less what the "break even point" is, all I care about is the overall cost and whether I will get the content and features I want. A few years ago, WMC gave me what I wanted. Today, it looks like TiVo is doing that. I see neither as being drastically more expensive than the other. Either way, if I spread the TOTAL cost out over 5 years (conservative... I'll likely get more than 5 years out of either solution) It is still less expensive than renting a DVR from my cable company (and I'm doing OTA instead of cable, so saving even more).
I still have my old HTPC running, but I've used it VERY LITTLE since hooking up the TiVo. I'm sure it uses a lot of unnecessary power, so I should probably start shutting it down when I'm not using it.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mschnebly said:


> I use MyChannelLogos Version 2 to do logo population and it's is quick, simple and complete.


I made many of those logos for makryger, so you're welcome  I wish I could use them on Tivo somehow since my logo library is more complete than Tivo's.

Comm skip in WMC is kind of complicated to pull off and generally not as accurate as Tivo.

Getting back to the original question of what is a good WMC replacement, so far the answers are, in no particular order:

- Don't replace WMC (optionally subscribe to a third party guide)
- Replace it with a stand-alone system like Tivo or Channel Master
- Replace it with any number of other DVR software packages, but lose DRM recording capability

Any non-WMC PC-based solutions also have more complexity, especially for whole-home systems.


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

I've kept my eyes on the Silicon Dust HDHomerun DVR, but I couldn't hold off any longer and there is a lot of uncertainty about how long it will be before they have a fully functional public release.
Its definitely something to follow, it looks very promising.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

adessmith said:


> I've kept my eyes on the Silicon Dust HDHomerun DVR, but I couldn't hold off any longer and there is a lot of uncertainty about how long it will be before they have a fully functional public release.
> Its definitely something to follow, it looks very promising.


That's what I thought 14 months ago when I contributed to their kickstarter. Unfortunately they've only managed to build a really crappy DVR for a couple of platforms and made no progress with DRM. They will never have a fully functional public release.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mdavej said:


> But the Nevo is still the best remote value around since it's currently discounted about 90% and we wrote our own excellent programming software for it, far superior to Logitech's myharmony crap. Not a good idea to pay triple the going price on Amazon when they're $16 shipped on ebay. I grabbed 20 of these remotes when they dropped to such low prices. I'll be discontinued before I run out of Nevos.


Thanks for the Nevo info. :up: Something that wasn't even on my radar. But now I checked ebay and looks like the going price is $19.80 with free shipping. And am looking at ordering a couple, but where should I look for more info? do you have some good links you can point me to? the ebay photos are all the same and don't show the screen in action. And it looks like it may be top heavy and wide as compared to a tivo rf peanut remote. looks like maybe more of a guy's remote based on the size so maybe I'll just order a couple instead of 3-4. for example, I don't see a kid liking it compared to a peanut. And others might be intimidated by it as it looks complex. But I like what I see, so I'm probably in for a couple at least for my use to start with. but with it being discontinued, can you share some links / point me in the right direction to learn more ?

And I'm also looking at Sage TV (for many of the same reasons as mcarlson - frustrations with comcast/tivo after the roamio issue, limitations of Plex on Tivo, rovi data) to supplement my network of tivos that are both cable & ota. although there is a console gamer in the house so xbox/ps4 would be part of the mix I was hoping and maybe sage isn't the way to go (or I leave those out of the integration). So do I need to pair the Nevo with some type of IR receiver hardware to be able to control networked devices? is the nevo IR only? So I guess I have basic questions like that which i'm sure are answered with some links. although from mcarlson's posts, sounds like this kind of integrated setup is already well figured out and in place and documented on the web for Logitech Harmony. but for $20, I'm in at least for IR to give it a shot.

If I have all my tivos set to different IR addresses / channels 1-9, I can control them all with Nevo, right? I still use one of the old tivo remotes with the dvr1-2 slide switch that can control two tivos, but it's so worn out, but I can at least get rid of that right with a Nevo? is there a link that explains how to program Nevo not to send as IR address zero commands that all tivos receive and respond to? And then the other users in the house can continue using the small peanut rf paired remotes, right? if they don't like the size and weight and layout of the Nevo and want to stick to peanut. although I've got an IR mini1 and some non rf tivos as well. And of course the peanut only controls so much.

And then does nevo control xbox and playstation? there's a probably even a TCF thread on this where I should take all these questions, so just point me in the right direction please so I can get on board. thanks.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tivoyahoo said:


> Thanks for the Nevo info. :up: Something that wasn't even on my radar. But now I checked ebay and looks like the going price is $19.80 with free shipping. And am looking at ordering a couple, but where should I look for more info? do you have some good links you can point me to? the ebay photos are all the same and don't show the screen in action. And it looks like it may be top heavy and wide as compared to a tivo rf peanut remote. looks like maybe more of a guy's remote based on the size so maybe I'll just order a couple instead of 3-4. for example, I don't see a kid liking it compared to a peanut. And others might be intimidated by it as it looks complex. But I like what I see, so I'm probably in for a couple at least for my use to start with. but with it being discontinued, can you share some links / point me in the right direction to learn more ?
> 
> And I'm also looking at Sage TV (for many of the same reasons as mcarlson - frustrations with comcast/tivo after the roamio issue, limitations of Plex on Tivo, rovi data) to supplement my network of tivos that are both cable & ota. although there is a console gamer in the house so xbox/ps4 would be part of the mix I was hoping and maybe sage isn't the way to go (or I leave those out of the integration). So do I need to pair the Nevo with some type of IR receiver hardware to be able to control networked devices? is the nevo IR only? So I guess I have basic questions like that which i'm sure are answered with some links. although from mcarlson's posts, sounds like this kind of integrated setup is already well figured out and in place and documented on the web for Logitech Harmony. but for $20, I'm in at least for IR to give it a shot.
> 
> ...


Funny you should ask. I happen to have written a wiki about it that also has links to reviews, manuals, software, files, icons and logos, you name it:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php?title=Getting_started_with_Xsight_and_Nevo

I see the price has gone up. Maybe the word is finally getting around. Even $19 is still a killer deal.

As far as ergonomics, the batteries counter balance the top, so it's pretty even. It's also pretty chunky which does put some people off. I'd start with just one to see if you like it. The more expensive C3 is much thinner. I have several of those as well. They add a touchscreen, rechargeable battery and charging base and RF capability. If you really need the peanut shape, the OARUSB04G is a good alternative, though not nearly as feature rich as the Nevo.

Multiple Tivo addresses are super easy on Nevo. When you configure it, just pick the address from a dropdown box and save each as a distinct device, i.e., Tivo 0, Tivo 1, Tivo 2, etc., or rename however you wish.

Game console control is a big topic, but here are the highlights as they apply to Nevo. All Xboxes (One, 360, etc.) can be controlled out of the box.

Playstation depends on the model and the capabilities of your TV. PS3 can be controlled for the most part via TV commands and Bravia Sync (HDMI-CEC) or via a 3rd party IR dongle (Nyko, Logitech, IR4PS3, etc.). PS4 is harder. An IR remote can pretty much only control it via CEC if your TV is capable. If you absolutely must have PS4 control, Harmony is a better option, although still not a very good one. Users complain that even Harmony's PS4 control is terrible and so limited that it's essentially useless. But at $100-$350 for a decent Harmony hub based model, it would be cheaper to buy a stand-alone, IR controlled Bluray player instead of using the PS4. Best option is to use your PS4 for games and do all your disc playback and streaming on something else.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mdavej said:


> Funny you should ask. I happen to have written a wiki


Nice - good looking wiki. I figured based on your posts, you were the man to ask. Thanks :up: First thing I notice is win10 support, so even though it's discontinued, it's still up to date / has a following it sounds like.


mdavej said:


> Even $19 is still a killer deal.


yes, kind of a nobrainer just to replace the old dvr1-2 slide switch peanuts I'm still using to control more than one tivo and are way past worn out - these guys:
https://s.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/10/series3vstivohd_sm20.jpg

And I know there is a 3 page "Best Universal Remote for Tivo?" thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10971981
I just haven't read it. but for $19, seems like a no brainer.



mdavej said:


> As far as ergonomics, the batteries counter balance the top, so it's pretty even. It's also pretty chunky which does put some people off. I'd start with just one to see if you like it.


So then the other thing I noticed was the jp1 and it brought back old memories of some radio shack rf remotes that I could program with a custom serial to jp1 cable. long time ago, but I think it was this one:
http://www.remotecentral.com/ureview/photos/152117.jpg

but my girlfriend at the time hated it. too wide / bulky for her hand especially compared to the narrow middle of the peanut. So that was somewhat of a fail since I still ended up with numerous remotes on the table and not an all in one solution. and couldn't put the components behind cabinet doors with rf since she wanted the ir peanut. And today, the even smaller rf peanut is more well liked (especially under 12 age) and hard to compete with as far as my trying to get adoption by others to try to move to move to something bigger. so it may be just me, but that's ok because the peanuts can stay rf paired.


mdavej said:


> The more expensive C3 is much thinner. I have several of those as well. They add a touchscreen, rechargeable battery and charging base and RF capability.


thanks, found a good picture of the C2 & C3 in one hand:
https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/nevoc3c21_md.jpg


mdavej said:


> If you really need the peanut shape, the OARUSB04G is a good alternative, though not nearly as feature rich as the Nevo.


thanks, looks like that retails for $40. may wind up in my mix too as middle ground / hybrid between peanut and a bigger C2.


mdavej said:


> Multiple Tivo addresses are super easy on Nevo. When you configure it, just pick the address from a dropdown box and save each as a distinct device, i.e., Tivo 0, Tivo 1, Tivo 2, etc., or rename however you wish.


:up:


mdavej said:


> Game console control is a big topic,


ok, but the console isn't my biggest concern, more about the htpc side and hoping to integrate that. PS/4 could be part of the mix if I get PS vue service. but the game controller and 2 hands feels very unnatural to me. so if I can navigate with a remote that's better. and it would be ps/4 not 3. but the tv's have cec, although are there multiple versions of cec? not sure if they have latest.

but xbox one is in the running due to the silicon dust app - waiting to see how reviews on that come in. and will be following like adessmith posted. And nvidia shield as well is in running, nice price and can integrate with Sage, but will it run the games the gamer wants to play? One is Fallout 4 and I think she said that doesn't run on Shield. I'm not up on the games. but shield sounds like a nice client, waiting to hear mcarlson's review. although if there were some less expensive android clients that would work with sage and Plex that would be nice. And then I wouldn't care about the gaming side integrating in and just add xbox/ps/4 on their own. but if shield had the right games I could see getting a couple of those potentially and integrating the gaming with the tv/streaming side.

_but how do I get the Nevo C2 to interact with the htpc(s) ?_ as far as the IR receiver side? flirc looks interesting - need to read on that. or maybe I need rf to be able control things. or a wifi app remote. That's a question mark I need to put more thought into. but depends on what hardware I add into the tivo mix.

but from this thread I need to at least get started with a Nevo C2 - thanks. and be looking to get a non-Rovi htpc on my network with Schedules Direct, again thanks to this thread. :up:


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> SkipMode isn't 30 second skip and is significant, most people don't understand until they have used it.
> 
> Saying "In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs" and then saying that statement isn't true, is fairly comical.


I never said SkipMode was the same as the 30-second skip. but Comskip and ShowAnalyzer do the same thing as SkipMode. I've been using ShowAnalyzer for as long as I've had HTPCs and it's been around long before Tivo came up with SkipMode. I stand by what I said with respect to the single post I was referring to. There isn't anything mentioned in that post that I can't do with my HTPC so I'm not sure where you're coming from. I indicated the one caveat regarding protected content and sharing between HTPCs, but that's fairly common knowledge so I'm not sure why you'd make a big deal out of it. I can share protected content using extenders, but I prefer to use standalone HTPCs so everything I mentioned is 100% true.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> no one's going to change their mind here.


I'm definitely keeping an open mind. and this thread is opening my eyes with lots of good info. thank you all, for the post contributions. of course Tivo and Comcast have a lot do with me looking at alternatives as mcarlson has posted. After the roamio h.264 channels issue followed immediately by Rovi data. And the comcast compression issues which is why I at least have one alternative added to my network - OTA. But then there are the plex limitations on tivo. and I don't see going to Bolt and Bolt Plus to solve that, not at $550 all in pricing. although I've got one Bolt now and it's alright. but if it was so great I wouldn't be looking for htpc alternatives to add. And a sling box as well. and maybe some sling channels and/or ps vue to get my feet wet with those / try them out to see how they look quality wise as I do have OTA as a base, although my reception is OK and could be improved with better antenna solution. but am figuring comcast is in the picture for the time being especially since they supply the broadband internet and that's probably staying the case unless there was some good alternative, which I'm not aware of at this point.

So I foresee letting the lifetimed tivos handle DRM content and OTA going forward, especially if I can get the roamio or bolt to do dual ota & cable and I'm close on that. HarperVision has that mostly solved - see this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10972682#post10972682

btw, if anyone is interested in that, looks like a tuning adapter unlocks the backdoor to dual ota & cable. although may be able to do it with just a cable card insertion timed right in Guided Setup if anyone wants to try it, although I haven't had success with motorola card and comcast and am still stuck unless I get a TA which I'm close to doing - see thread above.

Otherwise I may see if I can move my S3 lifetime service to a premiere and let premiere take over OTA duties since that would make streaming and moving recordings around easier and faster, although I had issues with the premiere ota tuner and multipath last time I tried one and the S3 was better for signal reception. although I may be able to solve that via some antenna work. but right now there are channels missing in the rovi ota lineup so the dust has to settle on that if I'm going to solve ota capture with tivo. the fox affiliate is missing in rovi lineup  although I did get NBC added which was missing but again  over that.

But *as far as tuner for cable, is SiliconDust prime the way to go*, regardless of what I pair it with - Sage, WMC or something else? And again DRM really isn't a concern, but if it works on a htpc then great, but not an absolute necessity. the tivos handle DRM and I'm on comcast and they don't flag much - only premiums. *Or is Ceton a candidate? *or some other cable card device or tuner card? and I don't necessarily need 3 tuners that prime offers, since this is a first step supplement to my tivo network where I am good on tuners. So a dual tuner option is probably fine. although I'm seeing a used Prime on local craigslist asking $75 so if they'll come down on price that's probably tough to beat and a no brainer. but...



mr.unnatural said:


> Ceton (no longer in production, but available on ebay dirt cheap).


*how dirt cheap?* something like this $35 infinitv 4 ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/322232913706

Or is it worth it to pay more for SD? advantages to Ceton besides price? Or do I want the external ceton boxes, not the internal card? And does Ceton work with Sage? for that matter, am I locked into Windows with Ceton? As I'm considering Sage on linux. Or is OS only a concern for the internal tuner card where you need the right drivers and that means Windows 7? I'm fine with Windows 7 and WMC, although I prefer a linux dedicated htpc solution, but not if it means hassles like driver issues. want to set it and forget it mostly, likely mr. unnatural was talking about in the thread. not continual tinkering. and if there is a linux sage configuration already set for silicon dust, then I'd lean that way.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I never said SkipMode was the same as the 30-second skip. but Comskip and ShowAnalyzer do the same thing as SkipMode.


Not really. TiVo uses actual humans to mark the commercials so they're much more accurate then programs that scan the video looking for black frames.


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Not really. TiVo uses actual humans to mark the commercials so they're much more accurate then programs that scan the video looking for black frames.


And the way Comcast squeezes in its own ads there are often no black frames at all.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

tivoyahoo said:


> ............
> 
> So I foresee letting the lifetimed tivos handle DRM content and OTA going forward, especially if I can get the roamio or bolt to do dual ota & cable and I'm close on that. HarperVision has that mostly solved - see this thread:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10972682#post10972682
> ...


I have had success every time I have used a cablecard AND a TA to get my Roamio Basic, Roamio OTA and Bolt ALL to do dual, concurrent OTA antenna and cable simultaneously. It doesn't only take a TA to kick it in. A cablecard will do. I don't even think it's a "back door", it's just in the TiVo UI from the Premiere 2 tuner and older days, there waiting to be utilized.

I found my original thread that I started back in 2014 after I discovered this and it may uncover some new timing of how and when to do it to kick in:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=522302&highlight=cable+ota+at+the+same+time



HarperVision said:


> As I mentioned in another thread, I hooked up an antenna and redid guided setup. I left the cablecard and TA connected and only hooked up the antenna and disconnected the coax cable feed. When I got to the section right after it asked if I was setting up antenna or cable (I selected antenna of course), the next screen detected that I had a tuning adapter connected so it asked me if I wanted to setup for antenna AND cable or continue with only antenna setup. I was curios of course so I selected cable and antenna setup. It went through its usual paces and asked what cable provider I have, then downloaded what it usually does, then lo and behold it went to a follow on screen to scan and setup the antenna channels! I did that and once the scan was done it downloaded data again and voila', now both cable and antenna channels all show up in the guide, merged together! Of course only the antenna channels came in since that's what was hooked up, but the interesting part comes in when I swapped the coax cables back to the cable feed and now all of THOSE channels come in too.
> 
> I'm thinking if someone really wants, they could use one of those old A/B RF coax switches with both OTA and cable. It could screw up some recordings of course, if the switch is in the wrong position when a recording starts on the other coax feed.
> 
> I think I may have read something like this awhile ago when the Roamio was new and a lot of questions were being asked, but I don't think anyone ever got this far before, where they could feasibly have both at the same time, albeit using an RF switch. If so........never mind!


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

keenanSR said:


> And the way Comcast squeezes in its own ads there are often no black frames at all.


doesn't comcast just sloppily push the ads over the content. overriding/clipping the show content rather than even bothering trying to actually squeeze commercials in where they were intended to belong? and of course there's this...

Is Comcast Being a Bully to Sling TV?
The company has answered new ads that call it a bully by acting like one.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/08/12/is-comcast-being-a-bully-to-sling-tv.aspx


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

tivoyahoo said:


> ...is it worth it to pay more for SD? advantages to Ceton besides price? Or do I want the external ceton boxes, not the internal card? And does Ceton work with Sage? for that matter, am I locked into Windows with Ceton? As I'm considering Sage on linux. Or is OS only a concern for the internal tuner card where you need the right drivers and that means Windows 7? I'm fine with Windows 7 and WMC, although I prefer a linux dedicated htpc solution, but not if it means hassles like driver issues. want to set it and forget it mostly, likely mr. unnatural was talking about in the thread. not continual tinkering. and if there is a linux sage configuration already set for silicon dust, then I'd lean that way.


SD is the only one still making hardware and developing software/apps for it. Also an ethernet based tuner is going to be OS agnostic and share-able. So it's probably the best option moving forward. However, Ceton's PCI cards still work very well and have the advantage of more tuners in a single device. Ceton's ethernet based tuners are also good but have a fatal flaw for systems that run 24x7 which is a memory leak that requires a monthly reboot to correct. If you reboot your system monthly anyway, this is not a problem.

Others will have to address the linux angle. But the best place to talk about this kind of thing is AVSForum and TheGreenButton. AVS has a subforum dedicated to linux HTPCs. The direction many are going these days is SD HomeRun Prime plus an Nvidia Shield and apps like Emby and Kodi, no PC in the mix at all.
https://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=35596


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## keenanSR (Oct 13, 2004)

tivoyahoo said:


> doesn't comcast just sloppily push the ads over the content. overriding/clipping the show content rather than even bothering trying to actually squeeze commercials in where they were intended to belong? and of course there's this...
> 
> Is Comcast Being a Bully to Sling TV?
> The company has answered new ads that call it a bully by acting like one.
> ...


Yes, they do, many times I've missed a word or sometimes more of dialog after a Comcast commercial airs on Syfy or USA. It's really annoying as there's no way to recover what was said. I haven't really noticed it on the local NBC station but I do see it happen on CSNBA which I'm forced to watch anytime the Giants play the Dodgers. Speaking of, go Dodgers!!


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

keenanSR said:


> Yes, they do, many times I've missed a word or sometimes more of dialog after a Comcast commercial airs on Syfy or USA. It's really annoying as there's no way to recover what was said. I haven't really noticed it on the local NBC station but I do see it happen on CSNBA which I'm forced to watch anytime the Giants play...INTERRUPTED BY COMCAST COMMERCIAL


Sorry I'm on comcast internet and you got cut off


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

tivoyahoo said:


> Sorry I'm on comcast internet and you got cut off


 ........And his sentences were down converted and compressed, throwing away valuable letters and words in the process, to be interpolated later after upload by the TCF server program, woefully attempting to recreate his original intention


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> Not really. TiVo uses actual humans to mark the commercials so they're much more accurate then programs that scan the video looking for black frames.


You're saying that Tivo actually has someone mapping commercials for every show aired in every market? I find that hard to believe. Every local provider injects their own commercials for local programming and sometimes network programs as well and the insertion process isn't always as clean as it should be. I've never used SkipMode on a late model Tivo so I can't do a direct comparison with Comskip or ShowAnalyzer. ShowAnalyzer isn't perfect, but it can be tweaked for better performance. I find myself using the 30-second skip in addition to the commercial skip function when a commercial isn't mapped accurately.

I like the Ceton tuners for a single HTPC configuration because they give you more bang for the buck (i.e., more tuners per cablecard). If you want to share tuners with other PCs or devices then the SD HDHR Prime is probably a better choice.

There is an app that allows you to use cablecard tuners with SageTV, but not for DRMed content. So far, WMC is the only DVR program for a PC that allows you to record and play DRMed content.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

That is true. They use humans as part of the process.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> That is true. They use humans as part of the process.


How does that work? They must have a huge staff dedicated to just mapping commercial breaks if that's true. I know that network programs have internal flags that tell local broadcasters when to insert commercials, but I'm not sure it's the same for local programming or syndicated shows.

I just looked up how SkipMode works. Apparently it only works for about 20 network channels right out of the box. The rest of the shows are mapped by third parties and the info is not available right away, but usually within an hour after a show airs. You can't use SkipMode on these shows until they make the info available. ShowAnalyzer maps the commercials on the fly so you can use it almost immediately.

All I know is that Current Tivo users tend to go gaga over features we've had on our HTPCs or hacked Tivos for years before they ever appeared on a commercial Tivo box. We used to hack older model Tivos with features that didn't appear on a Tivo until many years later. Many of the functions you enjoy today are the direct result of developments made by the hacking community (e.g., networking capability, transferring shows to a PC, editing capability to remove commercials, etc.). One of the reasons I quit using Tivos is because they made them too secure to hack any longer, which seemed a bit counterproductive to me. The hackers created all of the new functions and Tivo just swooped in and implemented them without so much as a thank you.

One of the reasons I switched to HTPCs was because they offered far more flexibility to tweak them the way I wanted and add all sorts of extras that weren't available on a Tivo. Nowadays I don't do much hacking anymore and just want a platform that works with the features I want. That's why I still use HTPCs with WMC. I have nothing against Tivos. I just don't see what all the fuss is about regarding features I've been enjoying for years.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Just a quick followup regarding the suggested Nvidia Shield + Sage + Plex system. I received the hardware on Tuesday and have it working well enough that I think it would be a great WMC replacement. This assumes that you can do without any DRM channels. 

I've never seen an Nvidia Shield before in person and was surprised at how small it is. The mini is about 6x6 and this is roughly 8.25 x5 but maybe half the height of the mini. 

Basically things work as expected. It can play more in Plex than the Tivo and functions well as a SageTV extender. The biggest challenge so far was getting the remote control configured the way I wanted. The only software I've had to install on the Shield was SageTV from the app store and it was free. I'm going to use it as my primary system for a while and see how it goes.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mlcarson said:


> Just a quick followup regarding the suggested Nvidia Shield + Sage + Plex system. I received the hardware on Tuesday and have it working well enough that I think it would be a great WMC replacement. This assumes that you can do without any DRM channels.
> 
> I've never seen an Nvidia Shield before in person and was surprised at how small it is. The mini is about 6x6 and this is roughly 8.25 x5 but maybe half the height of the mini.
> 
> Basically things work as expected. It can play more in Plex than the Tivo and functions well as a SageTV extender. The biggest challenge so far was getting the remote control configured the way I wanted. The only software I've had to install on the Shield was SageTV from the app store and it was free. I'm going to use it as my primary system for a while and see how it goes.


What are you using as your Sage media server to record and store TV?


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

A windows 10-64bit PC with an i5-2500K Sandy Bridge for the SageTV server. I've also got a Plex server on a win10-64-bit i3 Ivy Bridge system and was toying with the idea of combining them or swapping them. This was more just a proof of concept/prototype thing. The SageTV system only has a 1TB drive for recording at the moment. The Plex system has a 4TB for my current media. If I combine them, I'd get a replacement 8TB HD.



NashGuy said:


> What are you using as your Sage media server to record and store TV?


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

Let me chime in by saying this:
I remember trying to setup commercial skipping with ShowAnalyzer and DVRMSToolBox, and maybe comskip (I can't remember everything I tried) several years ago when I first started using WMC on windows 7. I could never get it to work... I'm sure I was doing something wrong, but I spent most of a weekend playing with it and doing research and could never work it out.
I'm not the "average Joe" either. Granted, I don't have years upon years of education and certifications, but I did get an associates in Information Technology and I've had quite a bit of experience as I've worked in IT for about 10 years... not (just) as a grunt either, but as Systems Administrator. I provide support for 3 branches with a VPN between them. I handle all the servers (13 virtualized servers in a vcenter environment, including SQL, DC, webserver, email server, terminal server, etc..) I do all the networking, and all end user technical support.
I'm not saying that to act like I know everything, because I don't (obviously)... BUT if someone like me gets frustrated and gives up, its probably too complicated for a lot of people. I'm sure I was missing something simple, but I remember how frustrated I got and figure that happens to a lot of people when trying to set it up.
I recently moved back to TiVo and was excited to see their comercial skip feature worked automagically without any work on my end.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

adessmith said:


> Let me chime in by saying this:
> I remember trying to setup commercial skipping with ShowAnalyzer and DVRMSToolBox, and maybe comskip (I can't remember everything I tried) several years ago when I first started using WMC on windows 7. I could never get it to work... I'm sure I was doing something wrong, but I spent most of a weekend playing with it and doing research and could never work it out.
> I'm not the "average Joe" either. Granted, I don't have years upon years of education and certifications, but I did get an associates in Information Technology and I've had quite a bit of experience as I've worked in IT for about 10 years... not (just) as a grunt either, but as Systems Administrator. I provide support for 3 branches with a VPN between them. I handle all the servers (13 virtualized servers in a vcenter environment, including SQL, DC, webserver, email server, terminal server, etc..) I do all the networking, and all end user technical support.
> I'm not saying that to act like I know everything, because I don't (obviously)... BUT if someone like me gets frustrated and gives up, its probably too complicated for a lot of people. I'm sure I was missing something simple, but I remember how frustrated I got and figure that happens to a lot of people when trying to set it up.
> I recently moved back to TiVo and was excited to see their comercial skip feature worked automagically without any work on my end.


I just installed ShowAnalyzer and set it up according to a tutorial I found online, probably at Hack7mc, which, sadly, is no longer in existence. There are lots of other sites that tell you how to install and tweak it for optimum performance, but I just left it at the default settings and never tweaked it in any way. It works accurately probably about 60-70% of the time and I use the 30-second skip for the commercials it misses. I'm far from being any kind of PC expert and I'm not an IT person. However, I'm pretty good at following directions seeing as how I write them for a living.

SkipMode works because it has people manually mapping commercials instead of relying on software to do it for you. I have yet to see any software solution that can map commercials with 100% accuracy.

FWIW, if I was all that concerned about playing recorded shows that had the commercials already cut or mapped correctly I'd just download torrents and be done with it. They already have the commercials trimmed and edited out. Using both ShowAnalyzer and a 30-second skip does what I need it to do with minimal interaction. To be fair, I can see how SkipMode would be an attractive feature to have since someone else is already doing the work for you. I would not be at all surprised if Tivo decides to charge you for using SkipMode at some point. While Tivo isn't doing the actual mapping, they are forwarding the info to your Tivo. The question is, would you be willing to pay Tivo even more for such a feature?


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> I just installed Showanalyzer and set it up according to a tutorial I found online, probably at Hack7mc, which, sadly, is no longer in existance. I never tweaked it in any way. It works accurately probably about 60-70% of the time and I use the 30-second skip for the commercials it misses. I'm far from being any kind of PC expert and I'm not an IT person. However, I'm pretty good at following directions seeing as how I write them for a living.
> 
> SkipMode works because it has people manually mapping commercials instead of relying on software to do it for you. I have yet to see any software solution that can map commercials with 100% accuracy.
> 
> FWIW, if I was all that concerned about playing recorded shows that had the commercials already cut or mapped correctly I'd just download torrents and be done with it. They already have the commercials trimmed and edited out. Using both ShowAnalyzer and a 30-second skip does what I need it to do with minimal interaction. To be fair, I can see how SkipMode would be an attractive feature to have since someone else is already doing the work for you. I would not be at all surprised if Tivo decides to charge you for using SkipMode at some point. While Tivo isn't doing the actual mapping, they are forwarding the info to your Tivo. The question is, would you be willing to pay Tivo even more for such a feature?


Looking at some info about comskip and showanalyzer... I believe when I was trying to set it up they didnt support wtv files yet. It seems like I remember having to automate DVRMSToolBox to convert the WTV files to DVR-MS files and then strip out the commercials with which ever one I was trying to use... I'm assuming then something had to happen to replace the WTV file that WMC knew about with the new DVR-MS file which had the commercials stripped out.
I Just remember it being very messy and was very unreliable and unstable. It seems like it took a while after the recording was complete, and it couldn't do anything "on the fly".
It looks like things have changed a bit since then, as WTV files are supported natively.


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## tivoyahoo (Sep 4, 2003)

mlcarson said:


> I've never seen an Nvidia Shield before in person and was surprised at how small it is. The mini is about 6x6 and this is roughly 8.25 x5 but maybe half the height of the mini.


Thanks for the update. sounds great on the size - a nice small client. I too would have never envisioned it being so small, especially on the thickness. sounds like it's thin enough to tuck behind a wall mounted panel screen. and you can orient it vertically too on a stand right? I would think it can sit tucked behind a tv on a stand, but that base looks much wider than the box? does it come with the stand for vertical position? or is that an extra accessory and more $$? and no remote included, right? did the harmony work fine with the shield? isn't the shield remote $50 from nvidia? and is it even rf? but I am wondering if the shield can be tucked in a cabinet and operated with rf. I presume the game controller is rf. but is there a way to run a handheld remote to Shield via rf or network? can the flirc send commands via ethernet to control shield? or is there a remote app? in other words, do I need the box out in the open to receive IR? or maybe an IR receiver can plug into usb? but maybe if it's so tiny I can position it out in the open, or at least the ir receiver window on the box.


mlcarson said:


> I'm putting together the SageTV system that I mentioned in the 6th post. I ordered the Nvidia Shield for $163.76 from Jet.com


I looked for that deal on jet and came up with $280+ :
https://jet.com/product/NVIDIAr-SHI...g-Android-TV/53110cd7f67e4277a5327f117bbc3a94
is that deal over? or is there a promo? code? link? was the $164 including tax and shipping to California?


mlcarson said:


> ...and a new Logitech Harmony 650 remote and Flirc from Amazon.com for $79.30. .


which flirc is that? more than a usb dongle, right? is that a pi box? oh, wait you got the 650 plus flirc for $79.30 combined. so is that just the ir dongle then that goes for about $20 by itself?


mlcarson said:


> Basically things work as expected. It can play more in Plex than the Tivo


have you thrown some high bitrate 1080p at it? bluray rip? how much above the tivo 720p 4mbps bitrate can it do? is it comparable to Bolt in terms of what it can do plex-wise? although I don't know what the bolt tops out at on plex.

do you get a high bitrate on nbc recordings? I can get 19mbps - can shield handle those no problem as an extender? have you tried pulling some high bitrate tivo recordings and served them via plex to shield? does the server have to do a lot of transcoding for Shield?

and can't you run the Plex server on Shield instead of PC:
https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/ar...en-Running-Plex-Media-Server-on-NVIDIA-SHIELD

I'm thinking of doing that and wondering if the direct playback without the server-client connection would be better.

Looks like Shield will do usb 3.0 external drive and NAS (SMB):
https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articles/220391808
but I'm not seeing what capacity it would handle on usb3. or if it can do multiple drives.

Will Shield run Android 6 Marshmallow?

Any thoughts on running Kodi or emby or something else? or is plex the way to go ?



mlcarson said:


> The Plex system has a 4TB for my current media. If I combine them, I'd get a replacement 8TB HD.


so that's an external 4TB connected to PC? would the 8TB be a single drive?

I'm in the market for a usb3/esata enclosure and the Rosewill 304 has some nice specs (temp monitoring which controls variable speed 80mm fan) but it looks like it maxes at 6TB and no firmware update - post link:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10976813#post10976813

do you have a 8TB enclosure? maybe because I want esata for the Bolt that limits my choices. but I'm having trouble finding one so far.



mlcarson said:


> The biggest challenge so far was getting the remote control configured the way I wanted.


for sage functionality? shield? both?



mlcarson said:


> The only software I've had to install on the Shield was SageTV from the app store and it was free.


any thoughts on trying out the SD dvr app for Shield? 
https://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=35596

can you do schedules direct on shield? did you set up schedules direct on sage? how did that go? remind me again, is that gracenote data that schedules direct provides? so if one has an archive full of tivo recordings with grace metadata, they could go with schedules direct and keep with grace, right? instead of with tivo now having a mix of rovi with it.



mlcarson said:


> I'm going to use it as my primary system for a while and see how it goes.


As primary viewing are you doing 1080p, or 4k?
And have you tried out the gaming?
Is shield worth considering even if you're not a gamer and not looking at that as primary use? In other words, if you're not going to take advantage much of the gaming features, is it advisable to go with a different android tv box, such as the new mi box, which might (??) be under $100:

http://www.androidheadlines.com/201...mi-box-packaging-has-led-to-price-debate.html

Instead of paying a premium for a gaming android tv box? I'm just wondering if I should look at less expensive options since a) I'd just be doing 1080p not 4k and b) gaming isn't really on the radar, but it depends on how much of a ps4 or xbox one substitute it could be, such as if it does 75% of what those do. or if the titles are just lacking / hit and miss as to what's available.

Sorry for all the questions. probably a lot of them you haven't gotten to yet if it's so fresh out of the box. I guess I'm seriously considering following in your footsteps and may have to get my hands on a shield soon if you don't find a dealbreaker flaw. although I might wait and see on the new mi box and Bolt+ box in the next few weeks before moving ahead. Keep us posted. It's great to get the tivo user perspective on alternative hardware. Thanks again. :up:


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

The Nvidia shield does not come with the stand -- it's like a $30 accessory so no thanks but it can definitely stand vertically with one. It comes with the joystick rather than the remote. The remote is a $50 accessory that's both RF and IR so again, no thanks. I'm using a FLIRC ($22.95) to be able to map some of the remote signals to keyboard strokes and is in a USB port. My understanding is that the IR receiver on the shield only maps signals to commands from the original remote so certain ones you want might be missing without the FLIRC. I'm not sure exactly what will work and won't work for other remote control options. The Harmony worked fine for what that IR receiver would recognize. I know that the more expensive Logitech remotes that work with the Smart Control Hub open up a lot more options like Bluetooth and wifi.

The Nvidia Shield does 4K Netflix so presumably its limit is 4K with regard to resolution. I only have 1920x1080 TV. It doesn't have the 1280x720 4Mbs limitation of the Roamio/Mini's for Plex. I've been running SageTV on all of the Comcast channels and seems to handle them fine. I get whatever bitrate that they were sent as. I haven't done lots of testing on Plex yet but did try some of the stuff that I had that wouldn't directplay on the Roamio but did on the Shield. Most things so far have directplay'd without issue.

The deal that you quoted on Jet.com is for the Nvidia Shield Pro. I went with the 16GB Nvidia shield and used virtually no space on it. The SageTV app was 22MB. Shipping was free and Jet doesn't charge CA tax. The box came from Newegg so they are apparently a Jet reseller.

The Shield will do Marshmallow so you could get yourself a 128GB U3 card and run the OS on it if you wished. You can run Plex on the Shield as a server and attach hard drives via USB 3.0 but that's not my intent for it. I just want it as an extender. The Shield itself is tiny but if you start adding peripherals, things can get messier then having an HTPC there. I'm using the Ethernet port on the Shield and am not doing Wireless but I don't have an Ethernet port at each location so am doing the whole MOCA thing with Actiontec adapters (or at least on this one so far). I'm renting so I'm not sure if I could get permission to rewire the place. That's a plus for Tivo having this capability built in. Start adding USB peripherals and you need a USB Hub. Add anything else for networking and you need a small switch.

So my plan is to keep an HTPC as a server in the backroom and just use the Shield as an extender. The current 4TB hard drive is an internal drive and would most likely use the 8TB as an internal.

I'm using Schedules Direct on the SageTV server. The Shield is just an extender so doesn't need it. I haven't been a fan of the SD DVR app. I liked it in principal because they were working on it as the only other DRM content alternative but they haven't made a lot of progress and the lack of a channel grid kind of killed it for me. My understanding is that you could use the native SD program to view DRM content directly from the HDHomerun Prime from the Shield though; you just can't record.

If I never planned on doing any gaming, I could in theory sell the Controller for around $50 since they go for more than that on Amazon and have an extender that doesn't cost that much more than a Mini. I do have a gaming system with a compatible Nvidia card to do game streaming though.

The new MI box doesn't have an Ethernet port so I didn't like that option. 
This guy documented his whole Nvidia Shield DVR project and is worth a read.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/...e-House-DVR-Project-About-to-pull-the-trigger



tivoyahoo said:


> Thanks for the update. sounds great on the size - a nice small client. I too would have never envisioned it being so small, especially on the thickness. sounds like it's thin enough to tuck behind a wall mounted panel screen. and you can orient it vertically too on a stand right? I would think it can sit tucked behind a tv on a stand, but that base looks much wider than the box? does it come with the stand for vertical position? or is that an extra accessory and more $$? and no remote included, right? did the harmony work fine with the shield? isn't the shield remote $50 from nvidia? and is it even rf? but I am wondering if the shield can be tucked in a cabinet and operated with rf. I presume the game controller is rf. but is there a way to run a handheld remote to Shield via rf or network? can the flirc send commands via ethernet to control shield? or is there a remote app? in other words, do I need the box out in the open to receive IR? or maybe an IR receiver can plug into usb? but maybe if it's so tiny I can position it out in the open, or at least the ir receiver window on the box.
> 
> I looked for that deal on jet and came up with $280+ :
> https://jet.com/product/NVIDIAr-SHI...g-Android-TV/53110cd7f67e4277a5327f117bbc3a94
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

adessmith said:


> Looking at some info about comskip and showanalyzer... I believe when I was trying to set it up they didnt support wtv files yet. It seems like I remember having to automate DVRMSToolBox to convert the WTV files to DVR-MS files and then strip out the commercials with which ever one I was trying to use... I'm assuming then something had to happen to replace the WTV file that WMC knew about with the new DVR-MS file which had the commercials stripped out.
> I Just remember it being very messy and was very unreliable and unstable. It seems like it took a while after the recording was complete, and it couldn't do anything "on the fly".
> It looks like things have changed a bit since then, as WTV files are supported natively.


Yes, it now supports wtv files and has since Windows 7 was introduced, AFAIK. The older dvr-ms format was used with earlier versions of WMC that came with special versions of Win XP and Vista. I believe Microsoft made the switch to the wtv format with Win 7, but I'm not exactly sure of the timeline. I was fortunate that I never had to deal with the transition and only ever dealt with wtv files. I did have to convert them to dvr-ms format to use them with VideoReDo before I finally upgraded to the TV Suite and could work with them natively. I can see how that might have been off-putting back then trying to get the commercial mapping apps to work.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> While Tivo isn't doing the actual mapping, they are forwarding the info to your Tivo. The question is, would you be willing to pay Tivo even more for such a feature?


TiVo is doing the mapping. They have an office in North Carolina and have had several ads for hiring staff over the last year or so for this.

Scott


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I just installed ShowAnalyzer and set it up according to a tutorial I found online, probably at Hack7mc, which, sadly, is no longer in existence. There are lots of other sites that tell you how to install and tweak it for optimum performance, but I just left it at the default settings and never tweaked it in any way. It works accurately probably about 60-70% of the time and I use the 30-second skip for the commercials it misses. I'm far from being any kind of PC expert and I'm not an IT person. However, I'm pretty good at following directions seeing as how I write them for a living.
> 
> SkipMode works because it has people manually mapping commercials instead of relying on software to do it for you. I have yet to see any software solution that can map commercials with 100% accuracy.
> 
> FWIW, if I was all that concerned about playing recorded shows that had the commercials already cut or mapped correctly I'd just download torrents and be done with it. They already have the commercials trimmed and edited out. Using both ShowAnalyzer and a 30-second skip does what I need it to do with minimal interaction. To be fair, I can see how SkipMode would be an attractive feature to have since someone else is already doing the work for you. I would not be at all surprised if Tivo decides to charge you for using SkipMode at some point. While Tivo isn't doing the actual mapping, they are forwarding the info to your Tivo. The question is, would you be willing to pay Tivo even more for such a feature?


LOL, the weaseling and FUD continues. Oh yeah great feature that WMC doesn't have but who cares, and what if Tivo yada yada yada?

We get it, you're in a small minority that will never switch back. But for the vast majority of folks Tivo owns WMC 9 ways to Sunday.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, the weaseling and FUD continues. Oh yeah great feature that WMC doesn't have but who cares, and what if Tivo yada yada yada?
> 
> We get it, you're in a small minority that will never switch back. But for the vast majority of folks Tivo owns WMC 9 ways to Sunday.


Sounds like you want to pull out a measuring stick to see who's got a bigger manhood.  Most of the people that jumped ship from WMC to Tivo did so because they got in a panic over the most recent loss of guide data that resulted in a Chicken Little syndrome. The irony is that once they made the switch there was a lot of buyers' remorse over the fact that in trying to escape from Rovi they jumped right back into the fire with Tivo.

WMC and EPG123 is far better than the guide that Microsoft used to supply and as well as the one that Tivo owners are now stuck with. The future for WMC is looking pretty bright to me, regardless of how you want to spin it, especially now that Microsoft and Rovi are completely out of the picture with EPG123.

I'm not here to debate which platform is better because we both know that discussion in a Tivo forum is a complete dead end. I'm just responding to allegations that WMC lacks certain features that Tivo has.

The original topic asked what could be used to replace WMC. I just pointed out that there's no need to replace it if you simply install EPG123 and get a Schedules Direct subscription. No need to scrap a perfectly good HTPC that you've invested money in just to get another platform with the same crappy guide data that's going to set you back even more.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No e-peen action going on here, just trying to keep it real. As usual.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Wasn't a chicken little situation. Things really did go to hell. Nobody could have predicted EPG123 would come along and save the day. I wasn't going to wait around for a miracle. All I wanted to do was keep watching tv.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Wasn't a chicken little situation. Things really did go to hell. Nobody could have predicted EPG123 would come along and save the day. I wasn't going to wait around for a miracle. All I wanted to do was keep watching tv.


The only thing that happened was that the guide data looked like it was going to run out and leave everyone high and dry. This has happened several times before but it was always fixed at the last minute. I had enough faith that Microsoft would swoop in at the last minute again and get it working, just like they've always done. People were just getting antsy that this time it might not come back. If not now then the fear was that it could happen at anytime and that fear was fully justified. I was even looking into alternatives for WMC back then but could never find anything that wasn't vastly more complicated to set up and use, which would have been a hugely negative WAF and become unacceptable for use.

The Microsoft agreement clearly states that Microsoft could pull the plug on the guide data at any time and people just got tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop. A lot of people over at the Home Theater Computer subforum at the AVSForums indicated they bailed and switched to Tivo for this very reason so the Chicken Little reference is quite appropriate.

EPG123 wasn't the first alternative available to using guide data from Schedules Direct in WMC. It's just the first one that was sanctioned by Schedules Direct due to legal issues. BigScreenGlobal has been around for many years and does pretty much the same thing as EPG123, but it's much more complicated to set up and use.

You're right in that nobody saw EPG123 on the horizon. I've already got a lot invested in my HTPCs so I really didn't have much of a choice but to ride it out and hope for the best. I could have switched to Tivo without a lot of expense. I actually purchased six Roamio OTAs with lifetime for $300 apiece from Amazon, but opted to upgrade them and sell them on ebay at a profit rather than keep them. I did play with one for a bit after I upgraded it with a 4TB drive. It was pretty much what I remembered from when I had my S3 Tivos, although the UI had been updated a bit.

Right now it's just my wife and I in the house. We're finally empty nesters. She just wants something that allows her to watch TV while I like to record shows and watch movies and videos from my server. Wifey also wants access to kids shows that I have stored on my server when the grandkids are over. WMC and Kodi do everything I need them to do. While I do have the capability to record on every HTPC as well as share most of the recordings between them, it's not something I do very often. If my kids were still living at home then I'd probably go with a Tivo solution, but probably standalone Tivos in every room instead of Minis. One of the reasons I don't use extenders with WMC is that they're all dependent on the health of one HTPC. If it goes down then the rest of the house is SOL. Same goes for Tivo and the Minis. The main unit becomes the weak link in the chain. If it goes down then I've got a mutiny on my hands. Been there and it's not fun.

Tivos are great DVRs and I'd highly recommend them to anyone. I will, however, refute any claims people make that bash WMC just to prove some kind of point to support some kind of agenda in favor of Tivo. They are completely different, yet similar, devices aimed at two diverse markets. I don't blame anyone for switching to Tivo, but some of the excuses I hear are completely unjustified and unsubstantiated, if not downright lame. OTOH, if that's the way you feel about it then it is what it is.

Just note that anything I say in this forum is merely my own opinion, but I do attempt to back it up with facts whenever possible. If you can prove me wrong then I welcome the feedback. I don't know everything there is to know about Tivos or WMC so I enjoy being enlightened.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

One can't draw conclusions based on (feature) check boxes. Rather you have to experience/judge the user experience. The user experience defines how well it addresses one's needs. As an example saying both offer Commercial Skip has no value. Only after using both and finding the user experience is completely different can one draw a conclusion.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

In the world of DVRs you have users that fall into 3 basic categories.


The first group: They want an appliance setup and maintained by their provider
The second group: They still want an appliance but are willing to setup and maintain it themselves.
And the Third group: They don't need an appliance and are willing to setup and maintain a computer based DVR system.
If you are in the Third group a WMC system is workable. Otherwise it is not. It really is that simple.

For those who are able and willing to setup and maintain a WMC system, if it or a TiVo based system is better is a personal preference. I have had both, and recently upgraded my Windows 7 computer to windows 10 and disconnected the OTA tuners. For me a TiVo Bolt (or Roamio) are just to easy and work to well to make it worth messing with using the computer for a DVR anymore.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

That's kind of the whole point here - can we tech-savvy users make WMC work? Sure, with more effort than is probably necessary on an ongoing basis, even moreso if you use extenders.

Will it be as seamless for everyone in the house as a Tivo+Minis in most cases? Hell no. Will it be cheaper than a Tivo+Minis in most cases? Again, no.

Therefore Tivo wins, UNLESS you must have some extra bell or whistle that only an HTPC provides (not WMC itself, which is inferior in almost every way to a Tivo setup for DVR functions alone).


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I was wondering when someone was going to start up the "Tivo is superior" pissing contest. I won't get involved with that discussion, but I will pose a couple of questions to the Tivo aficionados here and you can decide for yourself what works best for you (of course we already know what that decision will be based on where we are, so it's not really a fair contest).

1. Can Tivo bitstream HD audio to a compatible AV receiver or preamp/processor?

2. Can Tivo do 7.1 audio?

3. Does Tivo support Dolby Atmos?

4. Does Tivo support 3D formats?

5. Does SkipMode work for all channels?

A properly configured HTPC can do all of the above. SkipMode will work with 100% accuracy, but only for the top 20 or so channels and it requires human intervention to properly map the commercials. That's a rather primitive method, albeit effective, for mapping commercials. I am curious about one thing, do any of the streaming services supported by Tivo offer any of the aforementioned audio formats? This is more of a curiosity than a feature comparison. I suppose it may be considered unnecessary if the services that Tivo supports don't provide audio in any of the aforementioned formats. The thing is, I use my HTPC to play Blu-Ray rips that do contain these audio formats. With a Tivo I'd need a standalone Blu-Ray player to give me these features.

I believe some of the streaming services support 4K. I am unsure what the current status is for 4K support on a HTPC, but I believe it is currently possible. EDIT: I just checked and HTPCs can do 4K with one of the newer graphics cards.

As for DVR functions on a Tivo being "superior" to WMC, I will only add the following. WMC allows me to set up series recordings (aka Season Passes). WMC will automatically re-record a program at the next available time if an error occurs that prevents the show from being recorded properly. I can pad my recordings both before and after and vary the length of the padding. I can set up a wishlist for future recordings. I have a search function that seems to work fairly well. EPG123 allows me to search via categories and locate premieres for any new or returning show. In other words, it's a full-featured DVR that works and works well. In fact, it does everything I ever used a Tivo for.

The only area I will concede where Tivo is clearly "superior" is with their search engine. It is more sophisticated and refined than WMC. Tivo is severely lacking as a Home Theater component for the way I use my HTPC. Aside from audio processing, input selection, and amplification, I only have one component in my system that does everything I want it to do - a HTPC. I just can't do the same things with a Tivo. That doesn't make it inferior, just inadequate for my needs. The things that you claim make a Tivo "superior" are mostly fluff and features I would never use. I just want a DVR that will record the shows I ask it to record. If the recording gets hosed it has enough sense to record it again at a different time so I don't miss anything. I've probably missed more recordings using Tivos over the years than I have using WMC.

FWIW, this thread is about a replacement for WMC, which implies the OP is looking for a PC-based solution, not a Tivo.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> You do realize you can do the same thing with WMC, right? Any WMC remote can do a 30-second skip by default and there are several commercial mapping apps that work reasonably well. File transfers don't require any special apps and the same editing programs you use with .tivo files work with WMC recordings as well. In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs. The only exception is sharing protected content between PCs or mapping commercials on said programs. Any program flagged as copy freely can be shared or edited.


WMC cannot do native SKIP MODE. Skip mode is where you push one button to skip ALL the commercials and the show starts up again. TiVo even notifies you with a cute sound to tell you when to push the button. No comskip, no VideoRedo, no guessing, no 6 30-sec's and 2 7-sec's back and hope for the best, it just works!


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> How does that work? They must have a huge staff dedicated to just mapping commercial breaks if that's true. I know that network programs have internal flags that tell local broadcasters when to insert commercials, but I'm not sure it's the same for local programming or syndicated shows.
> 
> I just looked up how SkipMode works. Apparently it only works for about 20 network channels right out of the box. The rest of the shows are mapped by third parties and the info is not available right away, but usually within an hour after a show airs. You can't use SkipMode on these shows until they make the info available. ShowAnalyzer maps the commercials on the fly so you can use it almost immediately.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the feature list is growing smaller by the day. Want Netflix from the same UI as your TV shows? Not anymore on WMC, Microsoft killed it. You'll have to swap inputs to either your smart TV or an AppleTV or Roku. Want Hulu, AmazonPrime, YouTube, Vudu, HBOgo from that same 10ft. interface? Not on WMC. Want to search for "Game of Thrones" and see where on ANY of those services, including live TV the episodes can be found? Sorry, only on Tivo.

TiVo used to be behind, you're quite correct. But while Microsoft left WMC to wither and die on the vine, TiVo kept adding things to where it's pretty darn nice. I say this as a former staunch WMC user (6 years) and defender who did all that stuff (Netflix add-in, Amazon add-in, comskip, channel logo, Mymovies, etc.) WMC could have been GREAT. It had plug-in support, a strong user community, it just didn't have the thing it needed, the company's support.

I've moved on. I'm happy. You're staying, you're happy. We're all happy, happy, happy.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> 5. Does SkipMode work for all channels?
> 
> A properly configured HTPC can do all of the above.


Complete and utter lie, because you know damn well that WMC cannot do SkipMode.

But again, truth for all is not what is being sought here. 'Truth' for mr.unnatural's use case is all that matters.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I believe some of the streaming services support 4K. I am unsure what the current status is for 4K support on a HTPC, but I believe it is currently possible. EDIT: I just checked and HTPCs can do 4K with one of the newer graphics cards.


4K on a PC is largely irrelevant. UHD disks can't be "ripped" and those services supporting 4K streaming (including Atmos) do not support PCs...

Even though I think the discussion is DVRing...if you want to talk high-end audio and such. I found PCs worthless. All of them had "noise" on their HDMI output when their signal was feed via pre-outs to a separate amp (for 7.2.4). I could even hear the drives spin up in my rear top speakers. This was with PCs from relatively high-end power supplies (CORSAIR RM1000i) to low-end external power supplies (ASRock N3150DC-ITX) and several different amps.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

snedecor said:


> WMC cannot do native SKIP MODE. Skip mode is where you push one button to skip ALL the commercials and the show starts up again. TiVo even notifies you with a cute sound to tell you when to push the button. No comskip, no VideoRedo, no guessing, no 6 30-sec's and 2 7-sec's back and hope for the best, it just works!


ShowAnalyzer can be set so that the commercials are skipped automatically with no operator intervention. As I indicated, SkipMode only works for the 20 major channels that Tivo chooses and possibly a few others. ShowAnalyzer works for every channel that is not flagged and can be fine tuned so that it works with near 100% accuracy for any given channel. No automated solution works 100% for mapping commercials so there will always be some that don't get mapped correctly. SkipMode has someone else do the work for you, which is very convenient, but still limited to only a handful of select channels. If you don't watch the majority of those channels then it's like not having SkipMode at all.



snedecor said:


> Sorry, but the feature list is growing smaller by the day. Want Netflix from the same UI as your TV shows? Not anymore on WMC, Microsoft killed it. You'll have to swap inputs to either your smart TV or an AppleTV or Roku. Want Hulu, AmazonPrime, YouTube, Vudu, HBOgo from that same 10ft. interface? Not on WMC. Want to search for "Game of Thrones" and see where on ANY of those services, including live TV the episodes can be found? Sorry, only on Tivo.
> 
> TiVo used to be behind, you're quite correct. But while Microsoft left WMC to wither and die on the vine, TiVo kept adding things to where it's pretty darn nice. I say this as a former staunch WMC user (6 years) and defender who did all that stuff (Netflix add-in, Amazon add-in, comskip, channel logo, Mymovies, etc.) WMC could have been GREAT. It had plug-in support, a strong user community, it just didn't have the thing it needed, the company's support.
> 
> I've moved on. I'm happy. You're staying, you're happy. We're all happy, happy, happy.


The Netflix app in WMC was never that good to begin with. I don't use any streaming services so the extra bells and whistles Tivo adds in this area mean nothing to me. Aside from the search functions that Tivo offers, the DVR portions of both Tivo and WMC are pretty equal, which is all I really care about. If I wanted streaming services I'd just add a Roku or similar streaming device and set up an activity on my Harmony Remote to control it.

Like I said, it's all good. Everyone watches TV using the method that they prefer. It's good to have choices. Just because I prefer WMC doesn't mean that it will fit your lifestyle. It's not a question of which device is "superior" but whether or not it meets your needs. Tivo and WMC are both great products. I'm glad to see that Tivo continues to evolve and provide their customers with the latest features and technology. They wouldn't be able to survive otherwise. The thing I like about using a HTPC is that I can add whatever features I want and not wait for Microsoft or anyone else to include them. You don't get to pick and choose what features Tivo puts in your box.



slowbiscuit said:


> Complete and utter lie, because you know damn well that WMC cannot do SkipMode.
> 
> But again, truth for all is not what is being sought here. 'Truth' for mr.unnatural's use case is all that matters.


I never said WMC could do SkipMode. I said a properly configured HTPC could do virtually the same thing. You just keep fishing for things to argue about.



Charles R said:


> 4K on a PC is largely irrelevant. UHD disks can't be "ripped" and those services supporting 4K streaming (including Atmos) do not support PCs...


Perhaps, but there is a fair amount of 4K content available from other sources that can be played on a PC. If history has taught us anything, it's just a matter of time before UHD disks can be ripped.



> Even though I think the discussion is DVRing...if you want to talk high-end audio and such. I found PCs worthless. All of them had "noise" on their HDMI output when their signal was feed via pre-outs to a separate amp (for 7.2.4). I could even hear the drives spin up in my rear top speakers. This was with PCs from relatively high-end power supplies (CORSAIR RM1000i) to low-end external power supplies (ASRock N3150DC-ITX) and several different amps.


I can't say that I've ever heard any such noise from my HTPC. Then again, my home theater setup isn't in the most ideal of environments because I have an indoor heat pump and heat pump water heater that run in the background all the time so chances are they could be drowning out any such noise. I got cured of the high end audio disease decades ago. Now I just sit back and enjoy the audio and video without getting neurotic about it.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

There's an awful lot of cherry picking going on here. If anybody mentions something Tivo does better, your response is that you don't use or care about that feature/aspect anyway, so it deserves no consideration (Netflix and other streaming, channel logos, high end audio, electrical noise, etc.). Well, I don't do file streaming or 4k, so I can pretend that those features don't exist on either platform.

We seem to be hung up on commercial skip. Everyone acknowledges that it's possible to some extent on both platforms. But in terms of accuracy and simplicity, there is no contest. In WMC, I have to do THIS and cross my fingers. On Tivo, I press one button. (If you don't want to follow the link, it's a thousand word procedure).

The streaming capabilities are actually a pretty big deal to most since they want one box to do it all. A PC is not that box, especially when it comes to streaming services. Tivo has the major ones nicely integrated, and they are easy to control.

Everybody participating in this debate is a WMC and a Tivo expert. Nothing has been said that all of us didn't already know. The bottom line is, WMC is a dead product which is more complicated to set up, use and maintain than Tivo. There is no future in a WMC system. 10 years from now, WMC, if it still works at all, will be exactly the same as it is today and will still have to run on Windows 7, if you can find hardware that it will still run on. Tivo is still actively supported and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> The bottom line is, WMC is a dead product which is more complicated to set up, use and maintain than Tivo. There is no future in a WMC system. 10 years from now, WMC, if it still works at all, will be exactly the same as it is today and will still have to run on Windows 7, if you can find hardware that it will still run on. Tivo is still actively supported and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.


10 years from now there's a good chance the way we receive TV at home will be drastically different from the way we currently receive it, making both Tivo and WMC obsolete. Streaming services seem to be the way things are headed and options to record anything legally probably aren't going to be forthcoming, essentially killing off the DVR.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I take great exception when people say a product is dead when it is, in fact, still alive and well. I know people that still use Windows 98 because they have apps that will only run on that platform. As long as TV providers transmit programming using the current standard, WMC will remain a viable product for as long as you can get guide data for it. Finding hardware to run Windows 7 shouldn't be that much of a problem. There is an abundance of used PCs and peripherals on ebay that should satisfy that need for quite some time.

Microsoft stopped any further development of WMC before they abandoned the project and dissolved the division. My question is, what exactly did anyone expect Microsoft to do to improve the DVR function of WMC? Frankly, I think it works pretty darn good the way it is. As for further development, if it ain't broke, leave it the f&*k alone. Aside from the extra bells and whistles added to Tivo for streaming and such, what have they done to improve the DVR portion of the device that makes it better than WMC? The search function is the only feature that stands out in my mind, but please tell me where they have vastly improved the device in that area since it was first introduced?

When I say there are features in a Tivo that I have no interest in, I only say that to put things in perspective from my point of view. I was a long time Tivo user for over a decade before I started using HTPCs. When I realized they could do everything my Tivo could do, at least from the perspective of how I used my Tivos, and provide me with more flexibility for expansion and modification, I was sold. I have conceded time and time again that other people's needs differ from mine and Tivo may be better suited for them. I'm not here trying to convert anyone or sway them to my way of thinking. I'm just here to share ideas and voice my opinion, same as everyone else. You don't have to agree with them, same as I don't have to agree with yours.


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## adessmith (Oct 5, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> 10 years from now there's a good chance the way we receive TV at home will be drastically different from the way we currently receive it


From my perceptive that is already happening, but Tivo is riding the wave and WMC is a sinking ship. WMC isn't dead yet, but I am changing with the times... and WMC no longer seems to be "relevant". Most of my viewing is done via Netflix and Hulu Plus. Delivering content "over the top" is the future, and to some extent the "present"... the DVR is the past. As WMC is no longer in development, and not supported on microsoft's latest OS, I went ahead and jumped ship. Sure, it may not capsize for a while, and some might be completely satisfied going down with a sinking ship, and jumping last minute... but that's just not how I roll.

I was very critical of the shift to streaming media until I REALLY tried it... canceled my cable and went to a Hulu Plus subscription... and I found out that I was actually missing a lot more than I thought by relying on time shifted, locally recorded, content. I don't have to know what I'll want to watch before it airs. I can choose to check out a show AFTER it has already aired, regardless of whether I had to insight to record it... or whether I had even heard about it prior to it airing.

Again, just my personal experience. I know there are a lot of people not ready to embrace the shift that is happening in the way content is delivered.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

adessmith said:


> From my perceptive that is already happening, but Tivo is riding the wave and WMC is a sinking ship. WMC isn't dead yet, but I am changing with the times... and WMC no longer seems to be "relevant". Most of my viewing is done via Netflix and Hulu Plus. Delivering content "over the top" is the future, and to some extent the "present"... the DVR is the past. As WMC is no longer in development, and not supported on microsoft's latest OS, I went ahead and jumped ship. Sure, it may not capsize for a while, and some might be completely satisfied going down with a sinking ship, and jumping last minute... but that's just not how I roll.
> 
> I was very critical of the shift to streaming media until I REALLY tried it... canceled my cable and went to a Hulu Plus subscription... and I found out that I was actually missing a lot more than I thought by relying on time shifted, locally recorded, content. I don't have to know what I'll want to watch before it airs. I can choose to check out a show AFTER it has already aired, regardless of whether I had to insight to record it... or whether I had even heard about it prior to it airing.
> 
> Again, just my personal experience. I know there are a lot of people not ready to embrace the shift that is happening in the way content is delivered.


I agree with all of the above, although I'm not sure how well TiVo is "riding the wave" into the future of streaming-based TV. TiVo is an excellent, generally easy-to-use and easy-to-maintain traditional DVR but it's just not a first-rate streamer (nor is it set to participate in the new/coming wave of cable TV service that emphasizes on-demand, cloud DVR, and IPTV rather than QAM channels). And to what extent the post-merger TiVo will compete in the retail space going forward is an open question. I have little doubt that current TiVo retail units will still be receiving active service a few years from now but it's quite possible that we'll see no new generation of retail TiVos after Series 6 (Bolt) and that there will be no further developments/improvements of the TiVo service/features/UI post-2016.

In fact, I can imagine a future conversation, similar to this thread, playing out between a longstanding TiVo user versus users of some more modern TV gadget/service, with the TiVo user taking the place of the WMC user in this thread, insisting that TiVo isn't dead yet...


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> .......TiVo is an excellent, generally easy-to-use and easy-to-maintain traditional DVR but it's just not a first-rate streamer *(nor is it set to participate in the new/coming wave of cable TV service that emphasizes on-demand, cloud DVR, and IPTV rather than QAM channels)*. .........


Are you forgetting about the eBox?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I've got no argument with anything you guys are saying. I have not personally given streaming services a thorough test so I can't comment on their performance or content other than to say that many of them have exclusive content that would require multiple subscriptions in order to get the shows I want. There are lots of streaming boxes out there that probably do a better job than Tivo, but I can't make an honest assessment based on supposition. I hear lots of good things about the Nvidia Shield, but it's a bit pricey.

I guess I'm just old school when it comes to time shifting. Been doing it so long that it just feels like the thing to do. I'm guessing most of you got Tivos for the same reason and many of you eventually started using the streaming features. At some point I may give the streaming thing a try and see how I like it. I need to investigate the various services and see which ones are worth the money. Anything with commercials is eliminated right off the bat.

That doesn't mean I'd switch to Tivo. I'm perfectly content using WMC for as long as it lasts, and it will probably last for quite a long time. Call it dead, defunct, obsolete, or whatever gets you through the day. All I know is that it works and is completely reliable. EPG123 just gave it a new lease on life and makes it a better DVR app than ever before.

I understand the rationale why many of you made the switch from WMC to Tivo. I went through long periods of frustration and growing pains when I first started using HTPCs. They could be finicky and a royal PITA sometimes. There were many occasions where I felt like chucking it off a tall building. Then, somewhere along the way, I must have stumbled across some magic formula of hardware and software because everything just started working and didn't require any intervention or tinkering of any kind other than manually selecting and installing Windows updates every so often. 

A stable, working HTPC with WMC is a pleasure to use, and I use mine daily. I'm a stubborn old fart and when I set my mind to doing something I see it through. My stubbornness paid off because now I have several working HTPCs that are essentially trouble-free. If you were also lucky enough to get yours working but decided that you didn't like the UI or some other feature that you preferred on a Tivo then more power to you. It's not necessarily something that will appeal to everyone, even without the additional upkeep.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

HarperVision said:


> Are you forgetting about the eBox?


Ah, I should have explicitly noted that I was referring to retail TiVos (although I thought that was evident from the context). None of my comments are necessarily applicable to cable boxes that are TiVo-branded/powered.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Ah, I should have explicitly noted that I was referring to retail TiVos (although I thought that was evident from the context). None of my comments are necessarily applicable to cable boxes that are *TiVo-branded/powered*.


Which is most likely what the "New" retail TiVos will be, nonetheless. We are just MSO Beta testers in their minds, after all.

The signs keep pointing to this more and more if you ask me.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=543019


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

Until the streaming content comes out at the same time or earlier than the DVR content, the DVR wins. If you have to wait a day or two for streaming content, how exactly is that different than the Tivo guy who just records it and watches it later? The "streamers" just have to pay more sources for their content and then use an Internet connection on top of it. 

The thing that streaming really replaces are the movie channels like HBO. In my opinion, that's why WMC is losing its relevance. It's niche right now is that it can record DRM content on open hardware. When the DRM content is easily replaceable with streaming content, why use an old unsupported product that its maker is actively trying to kill? I think there's still a case to be made for open DVR products but maybe not WMC specifically.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's pretty much it. There are a lot of alternative DVR apps for a PC that will record and play non-DRM content, most of which are far more complex to install and configure than WMC. For DRM content you are limited to only three choices for recording, regardless of the platform - Tivo, WMC, or your provider's DVR. No other DVRs or DVR apps can currently record and play DRM content. SiliconDust has been promising DRM recording capability for their HDHR DVR app for quite some time, but I'll believe it when I see it.

If you're looking for DVR capability on a PC, WMC is by far the easiest to configure and use. I've tried other apps and WMC is a walk in the park compared to most of them. If you want a DVR appliance with great search capability and streaming apps then Tivo is a perfect fit for you. If you just want a DVR for occasional recording and don't need the other features then you're probably better off using your provider's DVR.

I previously stated that I had issues with my HTPCs early on. I want to make it clear that none of the problems I encountered had anything to do with WMC but were either hardware or Windows related. WMC always worked from the very beginning. I've had three different motherboard failures over the past 5 or 6 years in my main HTPC, and all of them were replaced under warranty.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mdavej said:


> There's an awful lot of cherry picking going on here. If anybody mentions something Tivo does better, your response is that you don't use or care about that feature/aspect anyway, so it deserves no consideration (Netflix and other streaming, channel logos, high end audio, electrical noise, etc.). Well, I don't do file streaming or 4k, so I can pretend that those features don't exist on either platform.
> 
> We seem to be hung up on commercial skip. Everyone acknowledges that it's possible to some extent on both platforms. But in terms of accuracy and simplicity, there is no contest. In WMC, I have to do THIS and cross my fingers. On Tivo, I press one button. (If you don't want to follow the link, it's a thousand word procedure).


That's my beef every time we have this argument (at least once or twice a year) - same person shows up and says 'I don't use it or care that it doesn't work as well in WMC, therefore it's irrelevant that Tivo can do it better'.

Which is all fine, except that we're having a general conversation for ALL people interested in WMC vs. Tivo. Not just one.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

My WMC has been rock solid for years. Once I stopped fooling with it I found it to just work. I use a Roku for all my streaming and it's rock solid. My Tivo Premiere got to be so slow and sluggish that I just put it in the closet. I don't expect to pay the cost of a new Tivo again to get a faster one. Had a Dish Hopper w/Sling for a while and it wasn't too bad and I loved all the tuners but was plagued with outages at every storm. I have a "free" X1 with voice remote now with my WMC. WMC still just works great as does the X1 and the voice remote has been flawless. The X1 is very fast and responsive. I don't care how far down a menu anything is as I just press a button and say it and boom, it's there. Looking for a program or movie? Just say it and it's there. 
Basically we have a lot of great way to watch video. Use just one or use combinations. Choice is nice and to each his own.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

You guys have probably already seen the thread on here about it, but today Plex announced a beta for DVR features built into their software. It will work, for now, with Silicon Dust network tuners, both OTA and CableCARD, and they expect to support additional tuners in the future.

If you have a Plex Pass ($5/mo or $40/yr), you can download a new beta of their Plex Media Server software that includes DVR. For now, the only way to set up recordings is through the web interface for Plex Media Server. Recordings can be viewed from all existing Plex client apps. And since you have Plex Pass, you should be able to remotely stream and view those recordings away from home. Plex DVR uses Gracenote data with lots of artwork for the listings (no traditional grid style though) but, for now, does not allow for live TV watching, so you'd need a separate app that interfaces with the tuner for live TV.

https://www.plex.tv/features/dvr/

Because the $200 Nvidia Shield Android TV is a one-box solution for Plex (acting as both a media server as well as client), I think it will become a popular choice for those wanting a retail DVR other than TiVo. Plex has confirmed that their DVR solution will eventually be available on the Shield; apparently the beta isn't there yet. I imagine that eventually the Plex DVR capabilities will seamlessly interface with the native DVR controls rolling out this fall for the Android TV UI too.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> That's my beef every time we have this argument (at least once or twice a year) - same person shows up and says 'I don't use it or care that it doesn't work as well in WMC, therefore it's irrelevant that Tivo can do it better'.
> 
> Which is all fine, except that we're having a general conversation for ALL people interested in WMC vs. Tivo. Not just one.


And you still choose not to read my posts to understand the rationale behind my position. I make it quite clear that it's just my opinion and the reason why I personally prefer WMC over a Tivo. I never criticize anyone else for their opinions as to why they prefer Tivo unless they make false or misleading statements about WMC.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

But that's just it - when someone makes 'false or misleading statements about WMC' they're usually not that, it's stuff you don't use or care about so you dismiss them out of hand. You just don't like the truth when it doesn't suit your needs.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

I just experimented with two WMC alternatives on the Nvidia Shield: SageTV and Mediaportal. Both are worse than the Tivo in one key area - channel surfing. The issue is that both of these programs can typically take 10 seconds or more for a channel change to occur. SageTV will take up to a minute or more on some channels and the Mediaportal plugin will just abort if it takes too long. The really long delays happen because the programs are looking for the PMT (Program Map Table) packet so that they can remux a transport stream to the client. SageTV is using ffmpeg for this and I think Mediaportal is using TSReader. Mediaportal handles the channel changes better but the plugin will timeout. The SageTV can take longer but it always eventually tunes the channel and the client doesn't timeout.

I believe the root of the problem is Comcast. It takes longer anyway to get this information from an H.264/AVC stream and then Comcast is doing something else to their 1280x720 H.264 channels that even broke the Tivo Roamio's for a while. Some of the longer delays are on some of the SD channels so it's not just the H.264 stuff. There is a way around it in that you can watch the streams directly from the tuner but then you don't have a live capture button so no pausing TV or doing rewinds. If you just timeshift everything, I guess there's no real problem. There would also be no issue if just using OTA. 

There are lots of positives on these setups but for live TV -- Tivo wins. I don't remember WMC having any significant channel changing delays but I can't retest on my current Comcast system since all of my PC's are on the latest Win10. If there is a problem, it'll never get fixed since development has stopped. One big positive at the moment is that I can use Tribune guide data for the Tivo alternatives rather than Rovi. This has been more of an experiment/backup solution but might end up being my default Plex player.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> But that's just it - when someone makes 'false or misleading statements about WMC' they're usually not that, it's stuff you don't use or care about so you dismiss them out of hand. You just don't like the truth when it doesn't suit your needs.


Well, let's just agree to disagree. I didn't come here to argue and start a flame war. I try to make an apples to apples comparison between the platforms. By taking the extra Tivo features missing from WMC out of the equation, they're both on a pretty level playing field as far as DVR capabilities, with but a few minor exceptions which I have pointed out (e.g., search functions being the major difference). The stuff I dismiss doesn't factor into the equation for the purposes of the comparison.

I have pointed out numerous times that if the extra features are what you desire then Tivo is the better platform for you. The false and misleading statements refer to comments made regarding lack of capabilities in WMC that are part of Tivo's functions. While WMC does not include some of these functions natively, they can easily be added in with third party apps and can therefore allow WMC to perform the same functions as a Tivo, or at least closely approximate them. This is where I refer to the functions of a HTPC and not limit it just to WMC. WMC is merely the baseline for creating a multi-purpose HTPC.

I asked the following question back in post #94, but nobody has come up with an answer.



> Aside from the extra bells and whistles added to Tivo for streaming and such, what have they done to improve the DVR portion of the device that makes it better than WMC? The search function is the only feature that stands out in my mind, but please tell me where they have vastly improved the device in that area since it was first introduced?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> I asked the following question back in post #94, but nobody has come up with an answer.


Here are the DVR related things I can do on Tivo that I couldn't do on WMC, off the top of my head:

- Quick play (~30% faster playback with normal audio) on Minis (extenders)
- Live buffers on every tuner
- Record from the beginning of any live buffer
- Easily switch to any tuner without losing the buffer on other tuners
- Boolean searches (this may have been somewhere in WMC, not sure)
- Easy undelete and access to history
- Group recording management (delete entire group of recordings with one command)
- Suggestions auto record
- Easy online DVR management
- Good out of home streaming (WMC out of home streaming options leave a lot to be desired)
- Live guide view in addition to grid
- Ability to look backwards in guide before the current time


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> But that's just it - when someone makes 'false or misleading statements about WMC' they're usually not that, it's stuff you don't use or care about so you dismiss them out of hand. You just don't like the truth when it doesn't suit your needs.


I guess you haven't seen the posts about a Tivo app problem and then the chorus following of "Tivos are meant to be a DVR and that's all I care about. All the rest is just stuff"? Sounds the same to me. It the DVR function is working on WMC then all the rest is just stuff.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Here are the DVR related things I can do on Tivo that I couldn't do on WMC, off the top of my head:


- Quick play (~30% faster playback with normal audio) on Minis (extenders) *- a quick play function is available in WMC with audio, but I'm not sure what the playback speed is. I think it's only like 2X speed or slightly faster with a single press of the FF button*
- Live buffers on every tuner *- Not available in WMC except for the current tuner in use. This is relatively new on a Tivo, IIRC.*
- Record from the beginning of any live buffer *- only works on the buffered channel in WMC*
- Easily switch to any tuner without losing the buffer on other tuners *- Again, not a WMC feature*
- Boolean searches (this may have been somewhere in WMC, not sure) *- WMC's search function works fairly well, but I can't say if it's a Boolean search. There are options to search numerous categories as well as keywords. You can also search by actor, director, or title. EPG123 expands the search areas to premieres and a few others, IIRC.*
- Easy undelete and access to history *- no undelete function in WMC, but it does have an extensive history log. However, if you delete the recording from a Windows desktop instead of within WMC it saves it in the Recycle Bin.*
- Group recording management (delete entire group of recordings with one command) *- WMC is on Windows. You can do group deletes or any other Windows file function from the desktop.*.
- Suggestions auto record *- No suggestions in WMC. I thought most people turn them off on their Tivos. I did it with every Tivo I've ever owned. Just found it to be annoying. Obviously, YMMV.*
- Easy online DVR management *- There are third party apps for this, or at least there were. Ceton had an app that allowed full control via a smartphone, including remote control functions and scheduling recordings.*
- Good out of home streaming (WMC out of home streaming options leave a lot to be desired) *- Haven't tried any of them personally, but lots of people use Remote Potato*
- Live guide view in addition to grid *- I believe something like this is possible in WMC, but probably not quite the same way that Tivo does it.*
- Ability to look backwards in guide before the current time *- You're living in the past, man!*

Many of the features you mentioned are relatively new and not available on the early generation Tivos so there have been improvements along the way. Most of the improvements in WMC have come from third party developers and hackers, which, ironically, is where Tivo got most of their ideas for current features until they clamped down on security features and locked them out. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.  It's probably the number one reason why I dropped Tivo. I love to tinker and Tivo just made it so it wasn't fun anymore. HTPCs just allowed me to take things to the next level in that regard.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Most of your responses are wrong.

- There is no quick play with audio on WMC extenders, only on the main session
- You cannot record from the beginning of WMC's single live buffer, only from the point you pressed record
- I could also do group deletes on Tivo using Linux based file management tools if I were so inclined. Point is you can't do it inside WMC. Even in explorer you can't do it with one click like I said. You have to pick the files first at least. So I give no credit for WMC having that feature.
- I said "easy" online management and "good" out of home streaming. The third party tools and Remote Potato suck
- No live guide view in WMC
- I've often wanted to go back to something I may have just missed so I could search for upcoming showings. Handy to have that.

Anyway, you asked, so I answered.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> - Not available in WMC except for the current tuner in use. This is relatively new on a Tivo, IIRC.[/B]
> - Suggestions auto record *- No suggestions in WMC. I thought most people turn them off on their Tivos. I did it with every Tivo I've ever owned. Just found it to be annoying. Obviously, YMMV.*


TiVo has always had live buffers for each tuner ever since it's had multiple tuners? Did you stop using TiVo's before that (single tuner S1 or S2?)?

Some people seem to hate them for some reason (not sure why) but I've always left them enabled since our first S1 (2000). Whatever you prefer (or YMMV as you said!).

Scott


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Most of your responses are wrong.
> 
> - There is no quick play with audio on WMC extenders, only on the main session
> - You cannot record from the beginning of WMC's single live buffer, only from the point you pressed record
> ...


OK. I appreciate the feedback. Here's the thing, I decide what programs I want to record at the beginning of each new TV season. I check to see what's coming in the schedule and set up my series recordings. I rarely watch live TV, don't stream any content outside of my home, and don't use extenders. The only time I use the guide is for setting up recordings. Nowadays I just use the search function in EPG123 to look for new show premieres so I may never have to look at the actual guide.

All of the features you mentioned may be appealing to others, but they have little or no impact on how I record and watch TV. This is why WMC works for me. I literally set it and forget it. If I hear about a show that sounds interesting that's not part of my recording schedule I'll see if it's in the guide so I can check it out. Otherwise I'll acquire it by other means. I used my Tivos in the exact same way when I had them.

People talk about Tivo being an appliance yet they want to interact with it more than I interact with my HTPC. When I want to watch TV I just pull up the recorded TV list and start watching a show. When I'm done I delete it. I generally don't accumulate a lot of shows beyond more than a week's worth of recordings.

TV viewing is a personal choice. I grew up when the only choice we had was to watch what was on at any given time. VCRs opened up a whole new way to watch TV. Eventually that evolved into DVRs, VOD, and streaming services. I like the idea of time shifting and having the ability to skip past commercials, whether it be via SkipMode, 30-second skip, or just plain old fast forward.

Yes, WMC lacks a lot of features that Tivo has, but if you don't use them, where's the value? I like to keep things as simple as possible. If those features are meaningful to you then a Tivo is what you need. For me it is simply overkill. Like I said, I set it and forget it.

The only point I've ever tried to make in any of these threads is that the whole Tivo vs. WMC argument is completely moot. It all boils down to how you watch TV. You decide which features you think you'll use and go with the platform that works for you. It's not a question of whether one works better than the other, but rather will it do what you want it to do.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> OK. I appreciate the feedback. Here's the thing, I decide what programs I want to record at the beginning of each new TV season. I check to see what's coming in the schedule and set up my series recordings. I rarely watch live TV, don't stream any content outside of my home, and don't use extenders. The only time I use the guide is for setting up recordings. Nowadays I just use the search function in EPG123 to look for new show premieres so I may never have to look at the actual guide.
> 
> All of the features you mentioned may be appealing to others, but they have little or no impact on how I record and watch TV. This is why WMC works for me. I literally set it and forget it. If I hear about a show that sounds interesting that's not part of my recording schedule I'll see if it's in the guide so I can check it out. Otherwise I'll acquire it by other means. I used my Tivos in the exact same way when I had them.
> 
> ...


just like every thread you crap on, once again, your argument is crumbling. first you argue wmc is better than tivo, then you go on long diatribes about why its better and how customizable and easy to setup, you are proved wrong then your next argument is that "its windows, everyone knows windows", you are proved wrong again and then you go on another long diatribe and do a 180 and say how its a "personal choice", "it works for me" and when you are defeated you know claimj "WMC argument is completely moot".

you wash and rinse this constantly on every thread, and you are never correct.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yep, it's always the same old line - there's no way WMC is worse than Tivo FOR ME. Everyone else can pound sand.

Even though the conversation is supposed to be a general comparison, it always devolves into misleading statements about how WMC can do everything with workarounds (it can't) or I don't care about that feature.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Where have I ever implied that everyone else can pound sand? Stop making up stuff to make yourself feel superior. I have constantly said that WMC and HTPCs aren't for everyone and that Tivo is probably the better choice for a plethora of reasons. I have also never said that WMC is better than Tivo. A HTPC with WMC and third party add-ons may make it better for some things, but that's all. WMC is a better choice for me, but I have qualified that statement to explain why. It may not be the best choice for you.

***** and moan all you want. I never start these discussions. I only chime in and add my 2 cents, same as you. If you don't like my posts then either block me or walk away.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Let's make a deal - you stop coming here posting incorrect stuff about WMC in a Tivo forum and I promise I won't go to TGB posting that Tivo can do everything an HTPC can..


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## delgadobb (Mar 6, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not here to debate which platform is better because we both know that discussion in a Tivo forum is a complete dead end. I'm just responding to allegations that WMC lacks certain features that Tivo has.


You say you're "not here to debate which platform is better" yet that is *EXACTLY *what you are doing. Repeatedly. It's great that you enjoy WMC & wonderful if you can help someone tweak their WMC setup. You're in the midst of a bunch of TIVO users & keep making subtle jabs about why WMC is superior; not likely to end well, especially when you pick and choose which options/features/functions to discuss.


mr.unnatural said:


> I was wondering when someone was going to start up the* "Tivo is superior" pissing contest*. I won't get involved with that discussion, but I will pose a couple of questions to the Tivo aficionados here and you can decide for yourself what works best for you (of course we already know what that decision will be based on where we are, so it's not really a fair contest).


(Numerous questions involving what Tivo can or can't do, which may or may not involve urination  deleted.)

So, once again, "I won't get involved with that discussion," but then that's basically what you do. Sure sounds like a way to determine which option is superior. This is coming off very passive-aggressive.

Look, I enjoy my WMC setup & it's a fun hobby project with one of the PCs I built. Given that MS has announced EOL I will devote limited resources to it - I'll still use it but given interoperability with new technologies will have to come from third parties, not putting a lot of eggs in that basket. The EPG123 guide data was basically a hail mary pass that worked. Do we want to count on that every time?

In the meantime, I have two common living areas & four bedrooms directly wired with ethernet where I can stream live from one place to another with TIVO. I have no delusion that TIVO is perfect. That said, it just *WORKS*. Period. The DVR version of the '*EASY*' button.

Technically challenged roommate? No problem. Loves his Mini.

Family comes to visit? No problem. They figure it out right away.

Friends come to visit? (This is Las Vegas, after all.) No problem.

2000 HD hrs of movies/series/etc at their fingertips - plus streaming if they want.

I wouldn't expect ANY of the aforementioned people to be able to interface quickly with WMC. For me it's not an issue since I'm a tech geek, but for Joe Average user it's not so cut & dry. In my experience, anyone with limited exposure and/or technically inept *LOVES *Tivo.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> Where have I ever implied that everyone else can pound sand? Stop making up stuff to make yourself feel superior. I have constantly said that WMC and HTPCs aren't for everyone and that Tivo is probably the better choice for a plethora of reasons. I have also never said that WMC is better than Tivo. A HTPC with WMC and third party add-ons may make it better for some things, but that's all. WMC is a better choice for me, but I have qualified that statement to explain why. It may not be the best choice for you.
> 
> ***** and moan all you want. I never start these discussions. I only chime in and add my 2 cents, same as you. If you don't like my posts then either block me or walk away.


Well, this is a Tivo fan site and I guess we have to accept that any discussion of a valid alternative will cause the fan boyz to sharpen their claws. Sad that other options cant be civilly discussed here since Tivo is having such major problems. Just say that Tivo is the second coming and it will wash away all your sins and they might just go back to their normal whining.
Remember a few months ago when folks were discussing the problems that might or will happen with this buyout? The super fans were calling folks Chicken Little and bashing about complaining before knowing what will happen. Looks like the Chicken Littles were right all along.
Some of us just like to use what works best for us and sometimes that's a combination of devices including those of us that must be genius enough to set up WMC that just works.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I get it. Maybe I do come off a bit sanctimonious when it comes to defending WMC. WMC is only part of the equation when it comes to HTPCs. I'm as passionate about HTPCs as you guys are about Tivos. If I post something about WMC that is inaccurate, it's mainly because my short term memory sucks and I'm just too lazy to look up the right answer and I'm posting a response based on a faulty memory. That doesn't make it right, but there it is. I apologize for that as it's not my intention to spread misinformation. I just get carried away in the heat of the moment.

I like HTPCs. You like Tivos. What say we just leave it at that. Peace.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you, that was a very nice post. I also apologize for the tone here.

Peace be to you and yours.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

And a much appreciated response. I know opinions can make things a bit testy at times and I really hate getting involved in any type of flame war, but I can get carried away sometimes. Even though I no longer own Tivos, I did for a long time and like to think I still have roots here. I get angry at myself for letting things get out of hand because the last thing I want to do is make things adversarial. Sometimes the A-hole in me escapes and takes over.


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