# Let's say the merger rumors are true, and worst case happens. TiVo alternatives?



## El Maestro (Nov 19, 2013)

Lots of "ifs" and conjecture here, but hey, it's the internet so let's lean into the the FUD for a few minutes. 

If TiVo merges with or is absorbed by Rovi and then discontinues its retail business leaving us all in the lurch...what are the alternatives to TiVo that are currently on the market and how do they measure up to TiVo and cableco offerings?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

El Maestro said:


> Lots of "ifs" and conjecture here, but hey, it's the internet so let's lean into the the FUD for a few minutes.
> 
> If TiVo merges with or is absorbed by Rovi and then discontinues its retail business leaving us all in the lurch...what are the alternatives to TiVo that are currently on the market and how do they measure up to TiVo and cableco offerings?


If my TiVos stops working because of the TiVo co. itself, or being absorbed by Rovi, then the Comcast system is the only alterative that most Comcast customers will have, to keep the DVR function family friendly.


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## sjashe (Mar 3, 2008)

My main reason for Tivo was to be able to download videos for editing (Gov't meetings.. School Cmte, BOS, etc).
Over the years this fails to work, videos are always out of sync with audio, support from Tivo has dwindled..

So, if Tivo goes away I'll probably be either trapped with Comcast, or I'll just cut the cord


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

For both CableCard and OTA, Silicon Dust is working on a DVR product that uses their existing tuners:
http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/hd-homerun-dvr/

For OTA-only, there's currently Tablo, ChannelMaster DVR+, plus a new trio of Magnavox DVRs coming this fall.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't understand why Silicon Dust is making HDHomeRun work with specific NAS products rather than generic remote filesystem protocols like NFS, AppleTalk, and Samba.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The irony is some if not most of the alternatives will contain the same Rovi guide data that we'd be running from TiVo to get away from. At least there's a chance elsewhere of getting some customer service that cares more about the retail DVR business.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

Alternative for cable? The only direct alternative for cable will be the cable co DVR's


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> For both CableCard and OTA, Silicon Dust is working on a DVR product that uses their existing tuners:
> http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/hd-homerun-dvr/
> 
> For OTA-only, there's currently Tablo, ChannelMaster DVR+, plus a new trio of Magnavox DVRs coming this fall.


The SiliconDust DVR app sucks. If you aren't happy with the guide data you have now then you will absolutely hate this app. I paid for five years of guide data for a product I will never use.

The irony here is that the solution is right in front of your nose. Go back to Windows 7 and WMC using EPG123 and get your guide data from Schedules Direct for a $25 annual fee. WMC users are currently experiencing another guide data shortage from Rovi, but Microsoft is responsible for getting it out to their users. I've got guide data extending out for 21 days and now I have season and episode info in the title of each recording. EPG123 is easy to install and is free, although donations to the developer are welcomed and encouraged. Here's a link to the website:

http://epg123.garyan2.net/

It looks like support for Windows 8 has been added to the latest version that includes the all-in-one utilities to make the process fairly automated. I believe Windows 10 is also supported, but you will have to use the longer manual configuration method, IIRC. The only complaint I have is that you lose your scheduled recordings when you install EPG123. OTOH, here's a utility that allows you to backup and restore your scheduled recordings:

http://seanmauch.com/seans-wmc-backup/

Please note that I have not personally used this app so use it at your own risk. Here's the link to the main thread that discusses EPG123 at The Green Button forums:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=9702


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I'm really not sure exactly what we will do if my trusty ol Series 3 (TiVoHD) stops working. But we just sub to locals so we could probably get by with our AppleTV and maybe also the CBS app to be able to access the same shows (excluding live content).

Or maybe we would try the Comcast DVR.....given that our needs are not that great.

We shall see......


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

Sorry, help me understand . . . Rovi buys Tivo just to shutter the business? Why would they do that?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> The SiliconDust DVR app sucks. If you aren't happy with the guide data you have now then you will absolutely hate this app. I paid for five years of guide data for a product I will never use.


Agree 100%. SD was well-intentioned, but has no idea how to deliver a DVR app. They should have simply partnered with somebody like NextPVR who already had a solid product. Oh well.



> The irony here is that the solution is right in front of your nose. Go back to Windows 7 and WMC using EPG123 and get your guide data from Schedules Direct for a $25 annual fee.


This is exactly what I will do. My WMC box is still in my closest, unchanged from when I took it out of service. I should be back up and running in a few minutes, save for the cable card swap and EPG123 setup. I just hope I can sell all my Tivo stuff before Rovi does too much damage.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I will likely just suck it up and go back to Dish, or maybe DirecTV. I was interested in the AT&T/DirecTV unlimited data plan until I found out you cannot tether on it. The real downside to Dish is the constant disputes with content providers. The upsides are it costs less and has better STBs.

Tivo is the only way I could convince my wife to go OTA.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Hulu and CBS All Access covers all my OTA needs. Just need to keep up on the shows and watch them within a month of airing. I said in another thread I wish I had gotten my Roku in place before I bought the Tivo Bolt, I might have seriously considered not getting a Tivo for my OTA since streaming pretty much takes care of everything we need. But that's actually a general comment and not specifically to the Rovi thing.

Worst case scenario....even if the buyout/merger is approved by end of this year (big if) it would probably be another year or two before integration of the companies is complete and then even if Rovi would replace the Tivo guide data with theirs (and frankly, why wouldn't they) it would probably take them another year to get that programmed in. Assuming they even continue on with the Tivo business. But with the amount of MSO's that use Tivo, I'd think they would.

So I think it would be 4-5 years out before anything serious happens and by then I'd probably be moving on to another box anyway. And certainly by then streaming only should be more then fine for us, it almost is now. Only hitch there is if the cable companies continue to try to kill it (Time Warner...I'm looking at you).


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

mdavej said:


> Agree 100%. SD was well-intentioned, but has no idea how to deliver a DVR app. They should have simply partnered with somebody like NextPVR who already had a solid product. Oh well.
> 
> This is exactly what I will do. My WMC box is still in my closest, unchanged from when I took it out of service. I should be back up and running in a few minutes, save for the cable card swap and EPG123 setup. I just hope I can sell all my Tivo stuff before Rovi does too much damage.


the limitted SD DVR is fantastic if you are using an apple tv and the Channels app. the Channels app has a lot more DVR features built in than SD has provided in their clients and their guide data is supplemented with Gracenote, so its more robust.

As SD builds out their DVR and adds more features, Channels presents them nicely in their GUI.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> Agree 100%. SD was well-intentioned, but has no idea how to deliver a DVR app. They should have simply partnered with somebody like NextPVR who already had a solid product. Oh well.


Unfortunately, that would have only worked for non-DRMed content. The SD app uses the WMC backend so it can record flagged channels. There are reportedly copyright and other licensing issues that prevented them from providing a grid-style program guide, which was the deal breaker for me. Had they come up with a UI that made sense and was more user friendly I might have stuck with them. Their app has a zero WAF and will never fly in my house.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

jlb said:


> I'm really not sure exactly what we will do if my trusty ol Series 3 (TiVoHD) stops working.


I feel the same way. I have been interested in the discussion of a potential replacement in the marketplace and I don't see that there is one. Hopefully I am wrong; I am here to learn.

Right now, with the Tivo HD (with a minor deficiency removed by modification) I can watch every program on every channel provided by my cable company and OTA. I can transfer ANY of these programs to any viewing device of any kind in my house or remotely to watch whenever we want, in original quality (or if the playback device does not support original quality, with the best quality the device is capable of, with the transfer/conversion parameters completely under my control), using standard file copying methods. The programs never have an expiration date, their storage is totally under my control, including backup, and there is no imitation on how many devices or times or quality or locations for watching the programs. IOW: I subscribe to a channel, I have total access to the programs on that channel, period.

All the other alternatives I have looked into do not provide this completely unfettered access to the programs I subscribe to, primarily due to DRM. Have I mis-understood the capabilities of other products?


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> Unfortunately, that would have only worked for non-DRMed content.


I meant as a starting point, not just slap on a DVR that's not DRM and proclaim they're done. DRM is why we all gave them $300k for the project. Start with Next's source code and develop the DRM code to hook into it. If they are truly using WMC as a backend as their final solution, then that's outright fraud. That's not what we paid them to do. They promised a solution independent of WMC.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Wil said:


> All the other alternatives I have looked into do not provide this completely unfettered access to the programs I subscribe to, primarily due to DRM. Have I mis-understood the capabilities of other products?


Yes you have. That's what WMC gives you (always has) and what Silicon Dust will do when development is complete (at least that's what they promised).

"Completely unfettered" is way too much to ask though. Nothing gives you that, not even Tivo. You're still bound by copy once, copy never, etc. If you do have a way around that today, please share it with us.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

DrewTivo said:


> Sorry, help me understand . . . Rovi buys Tivo just to shutter the business? Why would they do that?


Happens all the time. First understand TIVO consumer is not doing well, so the question to ask is why would Rovi buy a company that appears to be in decline at the consumer level.

In this case two answers. First and most important is the Patents TIVO holds, likely Rovi acquiring them make Rovi far more valuable.
Second, making receivers for companies seems to be the direction TIVO is more headed anyway and likely one of the things Rovi likes. Deals that are already done are simply carried out. Frankly I will be surprised if Rovi/Tivo continues with consumer products for any real length of time.

UNLESS .... I do see one possibility. Can they compete and would the try to with the Roku and Fire TV's of the world? An OTA receiver, with excellent streaming choices close to but better than the Roamio OTA. Improve the apps available as well as how well the apps actually work. Improve upon being able see across OTA programming and the Apps you choose such as HBO, Amazon, Netflix etc etc. If that is feasible, I can still see one step more and either still incorporate Cable card compatibility, or make one other receiver with that function. I believe they would have to be convinced it is worth the effort and money to compete with unit most would feel superior. Though I have a Roku from years ago, I would buy only the Roamio OTA if given a choice if it had more apps. Even as is the OTA is used all the time by us in addition to our Satellite receiver.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

DrewTivo said:


> Sorry, help me understand . . . Rovi buys Tivo just to shutter the business? Why would they do that?


There are about 3x as many cable DVRs deployed with TiVo software then retail DVRs. They could decide to focus on the cable side and shutter the retails side, which means we're all SOL.

It could also effect consumer firendly features like the ability to download shows to a PC or mobile device, SkipMode, etc... Depends on how in the pocket of content providers Rovi is. TiVo has always been cautious, but they've always developed consumer firendly features as long as they deemed them safe. If Rovi is more on the side of content providers we could see rules like Dish has where SkipMode isn't available until after the C3/C7 window or where downloading is disabled because streaming is more secure.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Moxi left the retail market. I don't see another company stepping in with a "joe average" cable DVR if tivo exits the retail marketplace.

We may see some "geek" niche products using a computer with cable card tuner boards or Silicon Dust tuners. SD only has 3 tuners. I wouldn't be interested in a cable card DVR which didn't offer 6 tuners.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

If TiVo goes the way of UltimateTV of ReplayTV, then it's back to DirecTV for me. Without hesitation. I will NEVER use FiOS's Quantum DVR setup again. Just horrible.


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

Honestly, with the hideous DVRs that Charter offers, if Tivo stopped functioning, I'd seriously consider biting the bullet and going back to Directv, so I could get a comparable DVR experience. I'd love to go to DISH for their new Hopper but they don't carry any NY sports so they are out.

Charter "says" they have the World Box coming, but they work at an absolutely GLACIAL pace with regard to hardware upgrades and with the mergers coming soon, I doubt I would see anything for at least a couple YEARS.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah if TiVo gets out of retail I'll probably switch to DirecTV or Dish instead. The Charter DVR is absolute crap.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tampa8 said:


> Happens all the time. First understand TIVO consumer is not doing well, so the question to ask is why would Rovi buy a company that appears to be in decline at the consumer level.
> 
> In this case two answers. First and most important is the Patents TIVO holds, likely Rovi acquiring them make Rovi far more valuable.
> Second, making receivers for companies seems to be the direction TIVO is more headed anyway and likely one of the things Rovi likes. Deals that are already done are simply carried out. Frankly I will be surprised if Rovi/Tivo continues with consumer products for any real length of time.
> ...


I pretty much agree with you. TiVo did state on their quarterly call on March 1 that they're planning a new non-traditional-DVR product for retail release later this year. Surely the Rovi discussions were already underway by March 1, so perhaps we'll see the new product even if the merger happens.

Anyhow, my guess is that this mystery product would be aimed at cord-cutters and somehow involve OTA tv. For a lot of reasons, that's about the only thing that makes sense. I had been saying for awhile that TiVo should address that market, which relies primarily on streaming, by developing a whole new box based on a version of the open-source Android OS (like Amazon Fire TV). That would give it immediate access to a whole app ecosystem they don't have now; streaming has always been a weak spot for TiVo.

But it may make more sense to produce a simple OTA DVR product like Tablo, that is essentially an add-on to the most popular streamers (Roku, Apple TV, Fire TV). Just make a TiVo app for those boxes for viewing and recording OTA TV and leave the streaming to the native apps already available on those streamers. The TiVo app could still have universal search and OnePass with links that launch those other apps like Netflix, Hulu, etc.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mdavej said:


> Yes you have. That's what WMC gives you (always has) and what Silicon Dust will do when development is complete (at least that's what they promised).
> 
> "Completely unfettered" is way too much to ask though.


I'm confused. You start by saying I have misunderstood, that I CAN get an alternative product that gives me what I have from Tivo. GREAT news. Then you end by saying I can't.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Wil said:


> I feel the same way. I have been interested in the discussion of a potential replacement in the marketplace and I don't see that there is one. Hopefully I am wrong; I am here to learn.
> 
> Right now, with the Tivo HD (*with a minor deficiency removed by modification*) I can watch every program on every channel provided by my cable company and OTA. I can transfer ANY of these programs to any viewing device of any kind in my house or remotely to watch whenever we want, in original quality (or if the playback device does not support original quality, with the best quality the device is capable of, with the transfer/conversion parameters completely under my control), using standard file copying methods. The programs never have an expiration date, their storage is totally under my control, including backup, and there is no imitation on how many devices or times or quality or locations for watching the programs. IOW: I subscribe to a channel, I have total access to the programs on that channel, period.
> 
> All the other alternatives I have looked into do not provide this completely unfettered access to the programs I subscribe to, primarily due to DRM. Have I mis-understood the capabilities of other products?


Is that the modification that one performs on prom day, or something entirely else?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

sangs said:


> If TiVo goes the way of UltimateTV of ReplayTV, then it's back to DirecTV for me. Without hesitation. I will NEVER use FiOS's Quantum DVR setup again. Just horrible.


Microsoft developed UltimateTV and apparently just lost interest so they stopped supporting it. I thought the UI was great, but the hardware was unreliable and most of them died a slow death. ReplayTV just ran into too many legal issues and eventually sold out to SonicBlue, who just had no clue how to market their new toy, so it also died.

I looked at the FIOS DVR when I first signed up with them and discounted it right off the bat. It simply had too little storage capacity for HD recordings. I ended up getting two Series 3 Tivos. I still don't understand why Tivo abandoned the Series 3 units since they are still usable on most digital cable systems.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> I meant as a starting point, not just slap on a DVR that's not DRM and proclaim they're done. DRM is why we all gave them $300k for the project. Start with Next's source code and develop the DRM code to hook into it. If they are truly using WMC as a backend as their final solution, then that's outright fraud. That's not what we paid them to do. They promised a solution independent of WMC.


I don't believe they ever declared it was independent of WMC but rather a replacement. WMC is the only PC-based DVR setup that uses PlayReady. Anyone that wants to create a DVR app that can record protected content would likely have to license PlayReady, which is somewhat expensive from what I've heard. I think SiliconDust was able to skirt the licensing issue by using WMC as the backend and using the DVR app as an add-on to Kodi for a front end.

I believe this is in addition to getting CableLabs certification, which puts the cost out of reach for any independent developers not backed by a large corporation like Microsoft. I'm not sure if CableLabs certification is required if they use PlayReady since that is already certified. I honestly don't know what all of the underlying requirements are.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Wil said:


> I'm confused. You start by saying I have misunderstood, that I CAN get an alternative product that gives me what I have from Tivo. GREAT news. Then you end by saying I can't.
> 
> Right now, with the Tivo HD (with a minor deficiency removed by modification) I can watch every program on every channel provided by my cable company and OTA.


Check



> I can transfer ANY of these programs to any viewing device of any kind in my house or remotely to watch whenever we want, in original quality (or if the playback device does not support original quality, with the best quality the device is capable of, with the transfer/conversion parameters completely under my control), using standard file copying methods.


I doubt you can really do this. That's way too open ended. There are many viewing devices that can't playback files that originated on Tivo. You'll have to be more specific.



> The programs never have an expiration date, their storage is totally under my control, including backup, and there is no imitation on how many devices or times or quality or locations for watching the programs. IOW: I subscribe to a channel, I have total access to the programs on that channel, period.


So you can copy a copy-once program as many times as you want? This is news to me.

Alternatives CAN do what you do today with Tivo, but that's not "unfettered", just like Tivo.

WMC CAN play and record every cable channel you subscribe to. But like Tivo, it can't record copy-never programs, and you can't make a second playable copy of copy-once programs. If you're able to get around that with Tivo, I'd like to know how.

I used WMC for years before I switched to Tivo. It does some things that Tivo can't, like remove commercials from EVERY program. But it doesn't buffer every tuner. And like Tivo, it still abides by DRM.

If you can describe exactly what you're doing to copy and playback on other devices (using pyTivo or Plex or whatever) and exactly what those devices are (iOS, Android, PC, Mac), I can tell you if WMC can do the same. I never had any problems using WMC to play/record all my subscribed channels and viewing on other devices. But there are limits due to DRM.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't believe they ever declared it was independent of WMC but rather a replacement. WMC is the only PC-based DVR setup that uses PlayReady. Anyone that wants to create a DVR app that can record protected content would likely have to license PlayReady, which is somewhat expensive from what I've heard. I think SiliconDust was able to skirt the licensing issue by using WMC as the backend and using the DVR app as an add-on to Kodi for a front end.
> 
> I believe this is in addition to getting CableLabs certification, which puts the cost out of reach for any independent developers not backed by a large corporation like Microsoft. I'm not sure if CableLabs certification is required if they use PlayReady since that is already certified. I honestly don't know what all of the underlying requirements are.


No, no, no. This is completely wrong. CableLabs certification and PlayReady license costs is exactly what that kickstarter money was supposed to pay for. Yes such costs are out of reach of the small developers. That's why they raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. If they were going to regurgitate something that already existed (WMC backend to Kodi), then nobody in their right mind would have paid a penny to support that. When WMC goes away, the backend goes away too. Plus the SD solution is NOT PC based, it's NAS based. WMC won't run on a NAS. That's no path forward and definitely not what SD is doing.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't believe they ever declared it was independent of WMC but rather a replacement. WMC is the only PC-based DVR setup that uses PlayReady. Anyone that wants to create a DVR app that can record protected content would likely have to license PlayReady, which is somewhat expensive from what I've heard. I think SiliconDust was able to skirt the licensing issue by using WMC as the backend and using the DVR app as an add-on to Kodi for a front end.
> 
> I believe this is in addition to getting CableLabs certification, which puts the cost out of reach for any independent developers not backed by a large corporation like Microsoft. I'm not sure if CableLabs certification is required if they use PlayReady since that is already certified. I honestly don't know what all of the underlying requirements are.


Between all of the licensing costs you site, as well as the many hurdles on the consumer front that are well known to this forum, plus the technological uncertainty right now regarding the FCC's "unlock the box" push and the possible successor to CableCard, I don't see there being any new retail cable-ready DVRs coming out in the next year, if ever. I would be surprised at this point to see a TiVo Bolt Pro at all in 2016, as TiVo had suggested last fall, regardless of whether the merger goes through. I'm not sure I ever see a post-merger Rovi/TiVo in the business of making and selling any retail products, although maybe they'll retain the trademark and IP and license them to a third party for future retail hardware. Who knows? It's all speculation, of course.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mdavej said:


> No, no, no. This is completely wrong. CableLabs certification and PlayReady license costs is exactly what that kickstarter money was supposed to pay for. Yes such costs are out of reach of the small developers. That's why they raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. If they were going to regurgitate something that already existed (WMC backend to Kodi), then nobody in their right mind would have paid a penny to support that. When WMC goes away, the backend goes away too. Plus the SD solution is NOT PC based, it's NAS based. WMC won't run on a NAS. That's no path forward and definitely not what SD is doing.


It's my understanding that they are using DLNA/DTCP-IP which is already approved by CableLabs and for which they already had a license. (they supported protected streaming to PS3 prior to this) I think the kickstarter was used mainly as a way to pre-fund development. They were starting from scratch and big project like this could cost hundreds of thousands in developer salaries to accomplish. The kickstarter gave them both an injection of cash to make it happen and let them know there was interest in proceeding.

Although jafa would be best suited to comment on their exact motives as he's the lead engineer over at SD.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I would consider the Comcast DVR if need be. Given that I am just locals it could prob work reasonably well for us, except for total storage options and the conflict resolution the TiVo provides. 

If TiVo gets out of retail, would the Comcast boxes with TiVo still offer the TiVo software?

I would also consider cord cutting but I am concerned that I would miss the live networks capability......


Sent from my iPad Mini 3 using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

El Maestro said:


> Lots of "ifs" and conjecture here, but hey, it's the internet so let's lean into the the FUD for a few minutes.
> 
> If TiVo merges with or is absorbed by Rovi and then discontinues its retail business leaving us all in the lurch...what are the alternatives to TiVo that are currently on the market and how do they measure up to TiVo and cableco offerings?


I would probably try a PC based solution. And if that isn't viable I would curtail some of my TV watching and watch more content through streaming. The last thing I would want to do is pay for a FiOS or Comcast DVR. I've used them enough to know I would despise every minute of it.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah if TiVo gets out of retail I'll probably switch to DirecTV or Dish instead. The Charter DVR is absolute crap.


The current Charter DVR is trash, but have you seen the new one they are beta testing?

http://www.charter.net/support/tv/spectrum-faq-what-new-spectrum-guide/#/About

The videos of the new software are on the right.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

7thton said:


> The current Charter DVR is trash, but have you seen the new one they are beta testing?
> 
> http://www.charter.net/support/tv/spectrum-faq-what-new-spectrum-guide/#/About
> 
> The videos of the new software are on the right.


I'm more worried wbout the hardware. The ones here are all 2 tuners and 500GB. And old, and slow.


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

7thton said:


> The current Charter DVR is trash, but have you seen the new one they are beta testing?
> 
> http://www.charter.net/support/tv/spectrum-faq-what-new-spectrum-guide/#/About
> 
> The videos of the new software are on the right.


That is just a new guide on top of the same putrid hardware. This hardware has been around since 2007ish. As Dan mentioned, only a 500gb hard drive and all of the DVRs are pure standalone, they don't link together.

They have promised this new guide since 2014 and here we are, still only just testing in a couple cities. This is an example of the glacial pace I mentioned that they work at.


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## kjledford (Apr 25, 2003)

I'm moving to Canada.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Microsoft developed UltimateTV and apparently just lost interest so they stopped supporting it. I thought the UI was great, but the hardware was unreliable and most of them died a slow death.


I chose Ultimate TV over TiVo at the time and loved it.


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## JackStraw (Oct 22, 2002)

I am not going to believe TiVo is going to abandon all the subscribers to it's service. Many loyal customers have several TiVo throughout their household. I know in my case it would be a disaster. Verizon FIOS offers Quantum which only has a 100 hour storage capacity. I can't switch to DirectTV because they refuse to sign an agreement with Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia. This prevents me from watching any Phillies, Flyers or Sixers games. I would switch to DirectTV in a minute if they did.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

mdavej said:


> No, no, no. This is completely wrong. CableLabs certification and PlayReady license costs is exactly what that kickstarter money was supposed to pay for. Yes such costs are out of reach of the small developers. That's why they raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. If they were going to regurgitate something that already existed (WMC backend to Kodi), then nobody in their right mind would have paid a penny to support that. When WMC goes away, the backend goes away too. Plus the SD solution is NOT PC based, it's NAS based. WMC won't run on a NAS. That's no path forward and definitely not what SD is doing.


OK, maybe I'm confused, but I'm pretty sure the SiliconDust Kickstarter campaign was to raise funds to develop the DVR software for various platforms. These guys don't work for free, after all. WMC was already certified by Cable Labs so there should not have been any need to pay for a recertification. I can see the need to pay for the PlayReady license, but WMC is freely available to anyone with a Windows 7 license so those fees really shouldn't apply either. I'm pretty sure the rationale behind using WMC as the backend was to avoid all of these fees, but hey, what do I know?

The Kickstarter campaign for JRiver Media Center was for the exact reasons you mentioned.

Edit: I went back and looked through the thread over at the AVSForum briefly and it does appear that SD was planning on getting certification for the software. It just wasn't spelled out on the Kickstarter page and I didn't follow the thread very closely at the time.



sangs said:


> I chose Ultimate TV over TiVo at the time and loved it.


I had both UltimateTV and Tivo with DirecTV. I preferred the Ultimate TV DVR, but I stuck with Tivo because Microsoft charged twice as much for their DVR fee and I really didn't like paying an already bloated organization more money. They also failed at an alarmingly high rate so most of them were living on borrowed time. I sold mine while it was still working and dodged a potential bullet.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

lew said:


> Moxi left the retail market. I don't see another company stepping in with a "joe average" cable DVR if tivo exits the retail marketplace.
> 
> We may see some "geek" niche products using a computer with cable card tuner boards or Silicon Dust tuners. SD only has 3 tuners. I wouldn't be interested in a cable card DVR which didn't offer 6 tuners.


With the sad state of Cablecard? No. With an approved/mandated FCC proposal to replace it with open standards not subject to the CableLabs crap? Maybe in a couple of years, which might be all the time we need.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

ncted said:


> I will likely just suck it up and go back to Dish, or maybe DirecTV. I was interested in the AT&T/DirecTV unlimited data plan until I found out you cannot tether on it. The real downside to Dish is the constant disputes with content providers. The upsides are it costs less and has better STBs.
> 
> Tivo is the only way I could convince my wife to go OTA.


I've done some research, and I'd like to amend my previous statement. I will likely just not have a DVR any more. If something like Playstation Vue with its cloud DVR is available with my local channels, I may do that, but really the only time I watch truly local content is the morning news for the weather, so it is hard to justify a big, complicated setup just to get that.

With all the content we watch otherwise available from online sources, such as Amazon, iTunes, HBO Now, etc., etc. I think I would go in some all Internet-based direction. I would keep OTA for local, live broadcasts for as long as it is available, but I doubt it would see much use in reality. I cannot see paying some provider for access to content, much of which I couldn't care less about, on a monthly basis when that is not how we watch most things any more. That is what drove me away from traditional pay TV service to begin with. I'd rather pay as we watch. The costs come out relatively equal based on my model of our viewing habits on a yearly basis.

We really do not watch enough TV to justify a huge cable or satellite bill. If we watched more, or watched sports, it would be a different story, but it isn't.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ncted said:


> I've done some research, and I'd like to amend my previous statement. I will likely just not have a DVR any more. If something like Playstation Vue with its cloud DVR is available with my local channels, I may do that, but really the only time I watch truly local content is the morning news for the weather, so it is hard to justify a big, complicated setup just to get that.
> 
> With all the content we watch otherwise available from online sources, such as Amazon, iTunes, HBO Now, etc., etc. I think I would go in some all Internet-based direction. I would keep OTA for local, live broadcasts for as long as it is available, but I doubt it would see much use in reality. I cannot see paying some provider for access to content, much of which I couldn't care less about, on a monthly basis when that is not how we watch most things any more. That is what drove me away from traditional pay TV service to begin with. I'd rather pay as we watch. The costs come out relatively equal based on my model of our viewing habits on a yearly basis.
> 
> We really do not watch enough TV to justify a huge cable or satellite bill. If we watched more, or watched sports, it would be a different story, but it isn't.


I'm pretty much in the same boat. I spend money on streaming subscriptions but have no need for traditional cable. I like being able to record OTA with my Roamio but honestly I'd be ok with just live OTA plus ad-free Hulu, Showtime, etc. However, being able to pause and rewind live OTA and access it through the same input as all the streaming apps would be preferable.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2016/03/29/after-tivo-will-the-over-the-air-dvr-die/


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2016/03/29/after-tivo-will-the-over-the-air-dvr-die/


He lost me at "AMC's The Americans."


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2016/03/29/after-tivo-will-the-over-the-air-dvr-die/


That's a ridiculous column. He reviews the available options to his current TiVo Roamio, which he loves, without providing any reason for why that would be necessary. The simple fact that TiVo is for sale does not mean his Roamio is going to stop working. Why not wait and see if any alternative is even required? Maybe TiVo continues to operate the way it always has. Maybe the guide data provider changes, but the transition is seamless and it still works just as well as it always has? Why act like the sky is falling when there's no evidence that is the case?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's a ridiculous column. He reviews the available options to his current TiVo Roamio, which he loves, without providing any reason for why that would be necessary. The simple fact that TiVo is for sale does not mean his Roamio is going to stop working. Why not wait and see if any alternative is even required? Maybe TiVo continues to operate the way it always has. Maybe the guide data provider changes, but the transition is seamless and it still works just as well as it always has? Why act like the sky is falling when there's no evidence that is the case?


I am just supplying the link in response to the OP.

I already stated in the other thread I think the guy is ignorant for his earlier article.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

On the plus side we could get a 14 day guide.

On the minus side, Rovi doesn't talk to end users.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> On the minus side, Rovi doesn't talk to end users.


Considering some of the TiVo fanatics on this board, Gracenote might view that as a positive for TiVo leaving.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

unitron said:


> Is that the modification that one performs on prom day, or something entirely else?


Is he still active?

Yes that was (is?) one way to get it done, but at a cost, I think around $100. Really not that hard DIY if you have the tools and experience but of course if you screw up the delicate work it's bye bye Tivo. I think his method was to desolder the prom and replace it with a socket into which you could plug the original back in, or an alternative prom with code more to your liking (I really missed the old TivoWeb and liked the capability of being able to run it on the s3 and model HD). Having a socket is a very nice approach as opposed to just hard wiring in a new prom.

EDITED TO ADD: Of course if Tivo goes out of the retail business and the old boxes are borked by a new owner, AND the original commitments are kept, all the source code, commented, will be public (kinda) and you may not even need a hardware mod any more for the model HD. Of course we're left with the hassle of patching in and paying for guide data ourselves.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

If you can get DirecTV, the only reason to have cable is for TiVo. So the DirecTV Genie.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> If you can get DirecTV, the only reason to have cable is for TiVo. So the DirecTV Genie.


No, that's your only reason. A lot of us may have other reasons for having cable that don't include Tivo.


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## randian (Jan 15, 2014)

Bigg said:


> If you can get DirecTV, the only reason to have cable is for TiVo.


There is also the matter of reliability. DirecTV washes out too often in heavy rain.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

randian said:


> There is also the matter of reliability. DirecTV washes out too often in heavy rain.


Yes, Dish does better, with the Ku bands they use. Of course, when I had cable, it would often go out for hours when it rained, or it was hot, or it was cold. YMMV.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> Yes, Dish does better, with the Ku bands they use. Of course, when I had cable, it would often go out for hours when it rained, or it was hot, or it was cold. YMMV.


Recently? I remember this happening to me back in the 90s with cable, but since the signals are digital now and need to be more reliable, most cable companies have tightened up their networks and improved signal quality to where this doesn't usually happen with cable any more. Rain fade on satellite seems to have gotten worse with HD channels.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Recently? I remember this happening to me back in the 90s with cable, but since the signals are digital now and need to be more reliable, most cable companies have tightened up their networks and improved signal quality to where this doesn't usually happen with cable any more. Rain fade on satellite seems to have gotten worse with HD channels.


I haven't had TWC cable since 2012. It could have gotten better, but all the Dish and DirecTV dishes on my neighboring houses tell another story. The Internet reliability did improve over time, but it was still nowhere near as reliable as my VDSL2 connection from Frontier is.

When I had Dish, I might lose signal for a few minutes at most during or near a really bad thunderstorm. DirecTV was more sensitive to weather. I never had hours-long outages like I experienced with TWC.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> No, that's your only reason. A lot of us may have other reasons for having cable that don't include Tivo.


Well, cable is cheaper because it's an inferior service, and some providers like Comcast use illegal bundling practices.



randian said:


> There is also the matter of reliability. DirecTV washes out too often in heavy rain.


DirecTV is more reliable than pretty much any HFC system. I'll give you FIOS being the most reliable though, since it's a telco product, is entirely passive from the CO to the customer, and is maintained with a telco mentality.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> I'm pretty much in the same boat. I spend money on streaming subscriptions but have no need for traditional cable. I like being able to record OTA with my Roamio but honestly I'd be ok with just live OTA plus ad-free Hulu, Showtime, etc. However, being able to pause and rewind live OTA and access it through the same input as all the streaming apps would be preferable.


I spent all weekend watching stuff on Hulu. I have to say, it really is still very inferior to Netflix when it comes to trick-play. For instance, I was watching SNL on Hulu, but decided I wanted to FF through the musical performance. At first, it seemed like it would give me a preview frame as it went along, which was nice, but it only gave me one, and then froze on that. After going back to watch the SNL recording on my Roamio, the experience was so much better. Tivo really has spoiled us. It is going to be hard to find a decent trick-play experience with streaming. Netflix is usable at least. Amazon doesn't give you any preview, so it is even worse than Hulu.

I really, really hope they don't screw things up with the retail business.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Well, cable is cheaper because it's an inferior service, and some providers like Comcast use illegal bundling practices.


I'm not sure how much cheaper cable is where you are, but here it's about the same as Verizon FIOS. I can't speak to the bundling practices since I haven't had Comcast as my TV provider in almost two decades. Comcast uses a fiber optic backbone to distribute their signals here, but converts it to coax from the street to the house. The services aren't really all that much different as they likely use the same equipment at the head end for delivering their signals. It's just the infrastructure between the street and your house that's different. In fact, both Comcast and Verizon use essentially the same set top boxes and DVRs in my area.



> DirecTV is more reliable than pretty much any HFC system. I'll give you FIOS being the most reliable though, since it's a telco product, is entirely passive from the CO to the customer, and is maintained with a telco mentality.


I've had all three and I'm currently with FIOS. I had Comcast before HD was a thing and DirecTV while HD was fairly new. I made the switch to FIOS when DirecTV was just putting their new HD satellites into service. DirecTV is fine when the weather's nice, but prone to frequent signal loss due to bad weather. It's even worse with the new dishes as the signal is not as strong as the older satellites and more sensitive to disruptions. FIOS is by far the best service available and actually has decent customer service and technical support. I just wish more areas could enjoy it like I do. Unfortunately, Verizon has curtailed any efforts to expand their service to the rest of the country from what I've heard, which is a darn shame.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> support. I just wish more areas could enjoy it like I do. Unfortunately, Verizon has curtailed any efforts to expand their service to the rest of the country from what I've heard, which is a darn shame.


"Curtailed" maybe generous as not only are they not expanding FIOS they are selling off pieces of it. As far as I can tell no major telco is expanding fiber to the home.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> "Curtailed" maybe generous as not only are they not expanding FIOS they are selling off pieces of it. As far as I can tell no major telco is expanding fiber to the home.


Century Link is.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

atmuscarella said:


> "Curtailed" maybe generous as not only are they not expanding FIOS they are selling off pieces of it. *As far as I can tell no major telco is expanding fiber to the home.*


I'm not sure why you would say that.

AT&T is in the process of rolling out their "GigaPower" service (1Gbps), and Comcast has announced a "Gigabit Pro" service (1 and 2Gbps tiers), both of which are FTTP (fiber-to-the-premises) architecture. Both 1Gbps services are currently priced at $70 p.m. (with introductory discounting) to compete with Google Fiber's standard pricing, although fees may vary by location.

FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and we should soon have all three services available to us. My HOA has already signed an access agreement with Google and we're waiting for the site survey to be scheduled.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> I've had all three and I'm currently with FIOS. I had Comcast before HD was a thing and DirecTV while HD was fairly new. I made the switch to FIOS when DirecTV was just putting their new HD satellites into service. DirecTV is fine when the weather's nice, but prone to frequent signal loss due to bad weather. It's even worse with the new dishes as the signal is not as strong as the older satellites and more sensitive to disruptions. FIOS is by far the best service available and actually has decent customer service and technical support. I just wish more areas could enjoy it like I do. Unfortunately, Verizon has curtailed any efforts to expand their service to the rest of the country from what I've heard, which is a darn shame.


From everything I've heard, FIOS is the best. I wish I could get it.

As far as DirecTV goes, a properly peaked dish should hold a usable Ka signal except in the case of heavy rain between the satellite and the dish. It is less reliable than Dish's Ku band, but not anywhere close to what I would call frequently so, unless your weather is frequently poor.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

chiguy50 said:


> I'm not sure why you would say that.
> 
> AT&T is in the process of rolling out their "GigaPower" service (1Gbps), and Comcast has announced a "Gigabit Pro" service (1 and 2Gbps tiers), both of which are FTTP (fiber-to-the-premises) architecture. Both 1Gbps services are currently priced at $70 p.m. (with introductory discounting) to compete with Google Fiber's standard pricing, although fees may vary by location.
> 
> FWIW, I'm in Atlanta and we should soon have all three services available to us. My HOA has already signed an access agreement with Google and we're waiting for the site survey to be scheduled.


Wasn't aware AT&T was doing that, the last I had read they where not expanding Uverse (which isn't actually fiber to the house) good to hear they are doing fiber to peoples homes. New about Comcast & Google but neither of them are telcos. Nothing at all going on at all in western & central NYS (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse) several telcos Verizon & Frontier and some other tiny ones. We still have a good section of the rural areas with no wired Internet provider at all, and other areas with only DSL, which is ok in some places and not so good in others, in the areas with cable it is mostly TWC and they seem to have good moderate speed Internet but nothing near fiber speeds, I think my friend said she pays something close to $50 for 30 Mbps.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ncted said:


> From everything I've heard, FIOS is the best. I wish I could get it.
> 
> As far as DirecTV goes, a properly peaked dish should hold a usable Ka signal except in the case of heavy rain between the satellite and the dish. It is less reliable than Dish's Ku band, but not anywhere close to what I would call frequently so, unless your weather is frequently poor.


I play pool in a league three nights a week at two different local sports bars. Anytime it rains or snows the TVs display "Signal lost." We also have DirecTV in our break room at work and I see the same thing quite often. I won't say that we get heavy weather here all that often, except during certain times of the year, but it's enough to turn me off to DirecTV. The same goes for Comcast. We used to lose the TV signal every time there was a bad storm due to lines being knocked down or someone hitting a utility pole. I've never had a single outage with FIOS unless the power went out, in which case I couldn't watch TV anyway.

Every time I go to Costco there's a DirecTV rep that greets everyone as they pass the TVs on display. If he asks me if I'd be interested in DirecTV I just look at him and say just two words - Rain Fade. That usually ends the conversation quite abruptly.

If providers are getting smart and deploying fiber optic all the way to your homes then that's a huge plus. I know a lot of them went with fiber optic backbones years ago so that should give them a jump on getting fiber the rest of the way. It should eliminate the need for tuning adapters with the increased bandwidth. The only downside is that you're still stuck with the cableco mentality when it comes to customer service and tech support. Verizon definitely leads the pack in this area.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> I play pool in a league three nights a week at two different local sports bars. Anytime it rains or snows the TVs display "Signal lost." We also have DirecTV in our break room at work and I see the same thing quite often. I won't say that we get heavy weather here all that often, except during certain times of the year, but it's enough to turn me off to DirecTV. The same goes for Comcast. We used to lose the TV signal every time there was a bad storm due to lines being knocked down or someone hitting a utility pole. I've never had a single outage with FIOS unless the power went out, in which case I couldn't watch TV anyway.
> 
> Every time I go to Costco there's a DirecTV rep that greets everyone as they pass the TVs on display. If he asks me if I'd be interested in DirecTV I just look at him and say just two words - Rain Fade. That usually ends the conversation quite abruptly.
> 
> If providers are getting smart and deploying fiber optic all the way to your homes then that's a huge plus. I know a lot of them went with fiber optic backbones years ago so that should give them a jump on getting fiber the rest of the way. It should eliminate the need for tuning adapters with the increased bandwidth. The only downside is that you're still stuck with the cableco mentality when it comes to customer service and tech support. Verizon definitely leads the pack in this area.


I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time. When I had DirecTV and Dish, I probably lost less than an hour of signal all year due to weather, even during hurricane-related weather events, like Hanna in 2008. Really, only large, summer storms ever impacted signal. It is wise to get the dish re-peaked every few years though. The new, heavy ones tend to droop over time.

That said, I'd rather have the fiber service in general.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

ncted said:


> I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time.


I've certainly been no great cheerleader for DirecTV over the years, but I agree with your assessment.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ncted said:


> I spent all weekend watching stuff on Hulu. I have to say, it really is still very inferior to Netflix when it comes to trick-play. For instance, I was watching SNL on Hulu, but decided I wanted to FF through the musical performance. At first, it seemed like it would give me a preview frame as it went along, which was nice, but it only gave me one, and then froze on that. After going back to watch the SNL recording on my Roamio, the experience was so much better. Tivo really has spoiled us. It is going to be hard to find a decent trick-play experience with streaming. Netflix is usable at least. Amazon doesn't give you any preview, so it is even worse than Hulu.
> 
> I really, really hope they don't screw things up with the retail business.


I'm curious what the experience is like using the newest Amazon Fire TV box (not stick). I know with Amazon Video content, they use predictive "ASAP" technology to have the few shows they think you may want to watch next ready to stream before you actually select them, so there's virtually no wait. Also, I think on all the apps on that platform, you can tap the left/rewind button once to jump back 10 sec. or the right/FF button once to jump forward 10 sec; hold either down to scrub back or forward. The hardware is pretty powerful, so the UI is supposed to be pretty responsive. I don't know whether or not all the major apps on that box give you a preview window while you scrub back or forward. The box also has a fast ethernet port, so you don't have to rely on a wifi connection for streaming. It could become my go-to streaming box but I'd like to know more about the quality of the user experience.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ncted said:


> I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time. When I had DirecTV and Dish, I probably lost less than an hour of signal all year due to weather, even during hurricane-related weather events, like Hanna in 2008. Really, only large, summer storms ever impacted signal. It is wise to get the dish re-peaked every few years though. The new, heavy ones tend to droop over time.
> 
> That said, I'd rather have the fiber service in general.


I lost at least part of my channels almost every time it rained, even lightly, for at least a little while. IIRC, DirecTV even sent someone back out eventually to check my dish but it was peaked as best as it could be. I had similar problems with Dish before that.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> I lost at least part of my channels almost every time it rained, even lightly, for at least a little while. IIRC, DirecTV even sent someone back out eventually to check my dish but it was peaked as best as it could be. I had similar problems with Dish before that.


That is unusual. Were you in a fringe area?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I play pool in a league three nights a week at two different local sports bars. Anytime it rains or snows the TVs display "Signal lost." We also have DirecTV in our break room at work and I see the same thing quite often. I won't say that we get heavy weather here all that often, except during certain times of the year, but it's enough to turn me off to DirecTV. The same goes for Comcast. We used to lose the TV signal every time there was a bad storm due to lines being knocked down or someone hitting a utility pole. I've never had a single outage with FIOS unless the power went out, in which case I couldn't watch TV anyway. Every time I go to Costco there's a DirecTV rep that greets everyone as they pass the TVs on display. If he asks me if I'd be interested in DirecTV I just look at him and say just two words - Rain Fade. That usually ends the conversation quite abruptly. If providers are getting smart and deploying fiber optic all the way to your homes then that's a huge plus. I know a lot of them went with fiber optic backbones years ago so that should give them a jump on getting fiber the rest of the way. It should eliminate the need for tuning adapters with the increased bandwidth. The only downside is that you're still stuck with the cableco mentality when it comes to customer service and tech support. Verizon definitely leads the pack in this area.


There is something else going on. Maybe badly pointed dish or a drooping tree in the way. Until I had a tree grow that I can't cut down, I almost never got dropped signal except when a huge storm was coming and I live in EC/Columbia.

I've had more issues with fios from bad weather. Knocked out systems from lightening in the area, bad communication that prevented systems from working well.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm surprised you've had any problems with FIOS in Columbia because they don't allow any type of utility lines to run above ground. I'm just up the road in Ellicott City and I've never had a single outage with FIOS since I signed with them over 8 years ago.

I don't know what to tell you about the satellite signal other than it drops out quite frequently in all of the places I've been locally during bad weather. Granted, it's got to rain pretty hard for you to lose the signal, but it happens more than you might realize. Dish alignment for the new satellites is extremely sensitive so if it's off just a hair it can cause dropouts with a weak signal. I used to have DirecTV with the original satellites so I had the older dish. In fact, I had an upgraded aftermarket dish and a high gain Grundig LNB for better reception and a stronger signal and I still had occasional signal loss in bad weather. 

I was on the cusp for upgrading to the newer dish when Verizon left a flier on my door announcing that FIOS was coming to my area. I signed with them as soon as they started installing the lines in my neighborhood. I was still paying Comcast a ridiculous price for wideband internet so I jumped at the chance to get out from under them.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I think I realize exactly how many times satellite goes out since I had it from 1997 until early this year. I think someone who has had it for almost 19 years and relatively currently has a pretty good idea. And other than the tree I have battled, drop outs have been minimal

As for fios, I don't think you understand how poorly designed it actually is. There are multiple communication paths that all have to work for the system to be fully up. That is bad design as there are multiple points of failure all down the line. 

As for buried lines. Nonsense. There are as many outages in and around the Columbia area as anywhere else for power and the like. There are a ton of wires feeding the neighborhoods.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know what to tell you, Tony. FIOS has been more reliable for me than any other provider in the area, and I've been here since 1986. Comcast and DirecTV, not so much. When I first moved here we used to have power outages on a regular basis due to a bad transformer at the end of my street. Ever since they replaced it we rarely get more than a momentary brownout. I'm starting to wonder if the Columbia Association's tight restrictions have anything to do with the quality of your FIOS service and their infrastructure. It is absolutely flawless in my area.

I haven't had DirecTV with one of the current dishes so I can only attest to what I've seen at local bars. The outages have been enough to keep me from signing back up with them. Everyone has different experiences with their providers. One of the biggest things that have soured me on DirecTV is their lack of providing all locals for our area. They will only allow one set of locals based on your zip code, and even then they don't provide all of them, at least they didn't when I had their service. If you wanted both Baltimore and DC locals you had to put up a rooftop antenna, which The Columbia Association frowned upon until the law straightened them out.

We're getting way off topic here so how about we table this discussion and resume the original discussion?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time. When I had DirecTV and Dish, I probably lost less than an hour of signal all year due to weather, even during hurricane-related weather events, like Hanna in 2008. Really, only large, summer storms ever impacted signal. It is wise to get the dish re-peaked every few years though. The new, heavy ones tend to droop over time.
> 
> That said, I'd rather have the fiber service in general.


Incorrect.

DirecTV on Ka has 3x the rainfade of Ku (Dish)...which is still rumored to be in the works....but has been for over a year now.

Until DirecTV puts moves its HD programming back to 101 in MPEG4, DirecTV will always fade much more than Dish.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> I think I realize exactly how many times satellite goes out since I had it from 1997 until early this year. I think someone who has had it for almost 19 years and relatively currently has a pretty good idea. And other than the tree I have battled, drop outs have been minimal
> 
> As for fios, I don't think you understand how poorly designed it actually is. There are multiple communication paths that all have to work for the system to be fully up. That is bad design as there are multiple points of failure all down the line.
> 
> As for buried lines. Nonsense. There are as many outages in and around the Columbia area as anywhere else for power and the like. There are a ton of wires feeding the neighborhoods.


FiOS is a passive system for a large part of it. For me it's been very rare for me to have an outage since I got FiOS in 2007. And when there has been one it's typically been human error. When the Power goes out or Comcast goes out in my area, FIOS is still up. I'm able to continue watching and recording content. And continue using Internet and Phone service.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> As for fios, I don't think you understand how poorly designed it actually is. There are multiple communication paths that all have to work for the system to be fully up. That is bad design as there are multiple points of failure all down the line.
> 
> As for buried lines. Nonsense. There are as many outages in and around the Columbia area as anywhere else for power and the like. There are a ton of wires feeding the neighborhoods.


There are many more point of failure for dbs satellite than FiOS for me.

The SuperHead End is in Town, Fiber to the GPons which have backup power and 1.5 Miles away from and no repeater in between.

DirecTV has been out for hours (if not a day) at time (as has Dish) with problems. Many points of failures (not the least of which is an 80 mile an hour wind gust).

And water in atmosphere (a good rain even in the line of sight, NOT just overhead) and the rainfade goes into effect.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not sure how much cheaper cable is where you are, but here it's about the same as Verizon FIOS. I can't speak to the bundling practices since I haven't had Comcast as my TV provider in almost two decades. Comcast uses a fiber optic backbone to distribute their signals here, but converts it to coax from the street to the house. The services aren't really all that much different as they likely use the same equipment at the head end for delivering their signals. It's just the infrastructure between the street and your house that's different. In fact, both Comcast and Verizon use essentially the same set top boxes and DVRs in my area.


It's similar to Verizon. I was comparing to DirecTV, which is way more $$$, in part because you have to rent a box for every TV as opposed to adding TiVo Minis, in part because you lose the bundling discounts and in part because it's just more expensive.



ncted said:


> I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time. When I had DirecTV and Dish, I probably lost less than an hour of signal all year due to weather, even during hurricane-related weather events, like Hanna in 2008. Really, only large, summer storms ever impacted signal. It is wise to get the dish re-peaked every few years though. The new, heavy ones tend to droop over time.
> 
> That said, I'd rather have the fiber service in general.


Yeah, it should be nearly perfect reliability. I know my co-worked watched TV during one of the hurricanes with heavy duty rain and 90mph sustained winds coming in off the water, which is above what the dishes are even rated for, but he was watching the news with an SL5.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Reliability depends a lot on the individual provider and system. Generally, fiber is the most reliable of anything, as it's new, resilient, needs no power between the CO and ONT, and is all telco-grade. But YMMV. DirecTV should be darn near 100% if the dish is set up correctly.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bigg said:


> DirecTV should be darn near 100% if the dish is set up correctly.


Until space debris starts taking out the satellites.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Reliability depends a lot on the individual provider and system. Generally, fiber is the most reliable of anything, as it's new, resilient, needs no power between the CO and ONT, and is all telco-grade. But YMMV. DirecTV should be darn near 100% if the dish is set up correctly.


Tell that to the 2 major failures in the last year - or their 99.5% reliability claim - which means about 60 hours of outage a year is the norm.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> There are many more point of failure for dbs satellite than FiOS for me. The SuperHead End is in Town, Fiber to the GPons which have backup power and 1.5 Miles away from and no repeater in between. DirecTV has been out for hours (if not a day) at time (as has Dish) with problems. Many points of failures (not the least of which is an 80 mile an hour wind gust). And water in atmosphere (a good rain even in the line of sight, NOT just overhead) and the rainfade goes into effect.


In talking about point of failure once you enter the household. The back systems both have many points of failure. Fios is a multiple path system once it is at your home and I have had to fail more often and more catastrophically than directv ever. I had directv for 19 years and fios for 5. Which is more reliable?

I've had to have the ONT replaced. I've had to have a fuse reset outside the house. I've had three times for them to rebuild my system remotely. And I've had a modem fry. All of those affected television either a bit (couldn't work the dvr at minimum, lost all tv at max). Longest fios was out was three days. I've never had directv out for more than a few minutes due to a local problem (rain fade).

As for systemic outages, they have all had them. Fios is a central distribution system for non-local channels so a central failure takes the whole system out.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> In talking about point of failure once you enter the household. The back systems both have many points of failure. Fios is a multiple path system once it is at your home and I have had to fail more often and more catastrophically than directv ever. I had directv for 19 years and fios for 5. Which is more reliable?
> 
> I've had to have the ONT replaced. I've had to have a fuse reset outside the house. I've had three times for them to rebuild my system remotely. And I've had a modem fry. All of those affected television either a bit (couldn't work the dvr at minimum, lost all tv at max). Longest fios was out was three days. I've never had directv out for more than a few minutes due to a local problem (rain fade).
> 
> As for systemic outages, they have all had them. Fios is a central distribution system for non-local channels so a central failure takes the whole system out.


No, because FiOS has 2 Super Head Ends and can switch to the other in a heartbeat.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ncted said:


> That is unusual. Were you in a fringe area?


Nope. There are a lot of big trees around me and I think the line of sight for both dishes passed not far over the tops of some trees but the signal strength numbers for both Dish and DirecTV were very good (when it wasn't raining).


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

Tivo will evolve, but it will be around for many years to come. No, it won't be around in 50 years, but neither will I. In Tivo's case, technology will be so different, any comparison to what is available today is a little ridiculous. 

Today, what's needed is a delivery system that takes into account cable (or satellite), plus all the different places a video can reside. It needs a schedule and a means to record or get to a library of recorded video. Good local affordable and fast broadband is also a prerequisite.

This already describes Tivo, so all it need to do is be affordable. The new company with the guide technology is probably a good place for Tivo to go. Since they own the guide, it should make it less expensive to buy and operate a Tivo DVR / streaming device.

My goal is to have a moderate level of channels from Xfinity supplemented by Hulu, Netflix, one or more primary pay channels, and Amazon. If I could get OTA (I can't now), I would probably include ease at watching it in the list. This will keep expense down and maximize my available selection. Not needing to rent equipment is the key to savings.

Dish and DirecTV are going to be in trouble unless they can figure out how to be internet providers at low cost. They rule for customers who live in the boondocks, but these people need cheap and fast internet to have a complete package. Xfinity can bundle internet and cable to make the package very affordable.

In summary, if Tivo evolves into a Super Streamer with a good and affordable schedule, it will be more popular, not less.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

jim1971 said:


> In summary, if Tivo evolves into a Super Streamer with a good and affordable schedule, it will be more popular, not less.


Who will pay $200-$300 for a streamer and a monthly service (guide) fee?

OTA people do not even want to pay that for a TiVo DVR and monthly service!


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> DirecTV on Ka has 3x the rainfade of Ku (Dish)...which is still rumored to be in the works....but has been for over a year now.
> 
> Until DirecTV puts moves its HD programming back to 101 in MPEG4, DirecTV will always fade much more than Dish.


Not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not. I have said that DirecTV fades more than Dish in other posts. Thanks for reinforcing that message I guess?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> Not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not. I have said that DirecTV fades more than Dish in other posts. Thanks for reinforcing that message I guess?


No, not agreeing with your post:



ncted said:


> I think installers must be just doing a rush job when pointing the dishes. Otherwise, the signal should not go out every time it rains. Only heavy rains/snows should disrupt the signal, like severe thunderstorms or blizzards, and then usually only for a few minutes at a time. When I had DirecTV and Dish, I probably lost less than an hour of signal all year due to weather, even during hurricane-related weather events, like Hanna in 2008. Really, only large, summer storms ever impacted signal. It is wise to get the dish re-peaked every few years though. The new, heavy ones tend to droop over time.


The fade is due to Ka on DirecTV with 3x more rainfade than Ku - not improper Dish alignment.

That posts states nothing about Dish fading less than DirecTV - but only states poor installs are the reason for outages.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The fade is due to Ka on DirecTV with 3x more rainfade than Ku - not improper Dish alignment.


I haven't kept up with the latest in satellite technology, but aren't the Ka band satellites used by DirecTV much lower power than the older sats? This would certainly account for more outages on the newer sats than the old ones.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> No, not agreeing with your post:
> 
> The fade is due to Ka on DirecTV with 3x more rainfade than Ku - not improper Dish alignment.
> 
> That posts states nothing about Dish fading less than DirecTV - but only states poor installs are the reason for outages.


I stand by my original statement that properly installed dishes with DirecTV should not result in signal loss every time it rains. Even the low power Ka sats DirecTV uses should not go out except in heavy precipitation events. Having personally peaked a slimline HD dish for my own use, I can confirm that is the case. Anyone experiencing signal loss during an average rain event on DirecTV either has LOS issues or a poorly peaked dish.

That said, Dish should have much fewer problems due to the Ku band transponders they use, as you say.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> I stand by my original statement that properly installed dishes with DirecTV should not result in signal loss every time it rains. Even the low power Ka sats DirecTV uses should not go out except in heavy precipitation events. Having personally peaked a slimline HD dish for my own use, I can confirm that is the case. Anyone experiencing signal loss during an average rain event on DirecTV either has LOS issues or a poorly peaked dish.
> 
> That said, Dish should have much fewer problems due to the Ku band transponders they use, as you say.


Has nothing to do with "average" rain event in ground. It has to do with size and density of water in the line if site.

It is possible (and often observed in Florida) with a signal outage with no rain at the receive location.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mr.unnatural said:


> I haven't kept up with the latest in satellite technology, but aren't the Ka band satellites used by DirecTV much lower power than the older sats? This would certainly account for more outages on the newer sats than the old ones.


I do not believe that is the case, but would have to check that. However NASA has published studies which can be googled (sorry SEARCHED for all the TradeMark Protectors out there) online.

This can be observed during a rain fade event by changing the Directv IRD to "show SD Duplicates" and the Ku SD Channels from the 101 Orbital position are usually still visible while the HD Counterparts in Ka on 99 and 103 are out.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Has nothing to do with "average" rain event in ground. It has to do with size and density of water in the line if site.
> 
> It is possible (and often observed in Florida) with a signal outage with no rain at the receive location.


Clearly, with any LOS-based system, it matters what is between the transmitter and the receiver, whether that is local to the receiver or not.

Yes, with thunderstorms, like they apparently get in Florida, you can experience rain fade, even if it isn't raining on your head. Thunderstorms are considered heavy precipitation events. Both Dish and DirecTV will lose signal during heavy precipitation. DirecTV will probably experience a longer outage in the same location. However, lesser rain storms should not cause an outage for either service.

The original assertion I was arguing against is that the signal goes out every time it rains. That is demonstrably not the case on a properly peaked dish, even using DirecTV's weak Ka band birds.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ncted said:


> Clearly, with any LOS-based system, it matters what is between the transmitter and the receiver, whether that is local to the receiver or not.
> 
> Yes, with thunderstorms, like they apparently get in Florida, you can experience rain fade, even if it isn't raining on your head. Thunderstorms are considered heavy precipitation events. Both Dish and DirecTV will lose signal during heavy precipitation. DirecTV will probably experience a longer outage in the same location. However, lesser rain storms should not cause an outage for either service.
> 
> The original assertion I was arguing against is that the signal goes out every time it rains. That is demonstrably not the case on a properly peaked dish, even using DirecTV's weak Ka band birds.


This was the case here in Northern VA when I used DirecTV. It might not have been raining at home but I would get rain fade from the storm south of me. Whenever it happened I knew I would be getting heavy rain shortly. by the time the heavy rain arrived at home, my signal had typically returned. So my signal was rarely out when it was actually raining heavy at home.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Can we take the rain fade debate to another thread please, or another forum altogether?


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

mdavej said:


> Can we take the rain fade debate to another thread please, or another forum altogether?


Take that crap to the dying boring SatGuys site


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

foghorn2 said:


> Take that crap to the dying boring SatGuys site


Yes, let's keep our dying products separated, please.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

11:00AM - FWIW, it's raining hard in Elkridge, MD, and the satellite signal has been down for the better part of the last hour or so.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> 11:00AM - FWIW, it's raining hard in Elkridge, MD, and the satellite signal has been down for the better part of the last hour or so.


Again. There is something wrong. That rain would never take out my signal.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Again. There is something wrong. That rain would never take out my signal.


It would if it was raining hard enough. We had a torrential downpour here for quite a while and it got to where they just shut off the TV since all we got was a signal lost message. Setting up the new dishes is a precise science that requires a signal strength meter and extremely fine adjustments to the dish to lock in the signal. If the dish is off just a hair, you won't get a signal, period. You can't adjust them like you could with the older dishes using the signal strength meter on the sat receiver. You could still be off by a couple of degrees and still pick up a signal. You don't have that leeway with the new dishes.

The satellite signal simply cannot penetrate heavy precipitation without a lot of attenuation. If it gets attenuated enough, you lose the signal. This is a scientific fact and not something I'm making up. If you've never lost the signal then you've either been extremely lucky or just not watching or recording TV when it happened. Rain fade is a fact of life for DirecTV and Dish subscribers. I just don't buy that you've never had any sort of outage because it has to have gone out during one of our major storms. You'd be the first satellite subscriber I've talked to that has never seen rain fade.

I work in Elkridge about 5 miles from my house in Ellicott City. I called the wife to see if we were having any issues with flooding in the basement and she said the rain wasn't all that heavy where she was, but it was pouring at my location. You're even further south and probably had less rain and therefore probably didn't experience the same signal loss we had this morning.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

This is a bottomless pit. The next response will be your dish isn't peaked, whether it actually is or not. I had 10 years of rain fade with many dishes and very good installers. People will defend their point of view endlessly. Please leave this dead horse in peace.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Hopefully this will put an end to it:

http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/4dtv/dbsrainfade/dbsrainfade.htm


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Hopefully this will put an end to it


OK. End.

But it was goth.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Hopefully this will put an end to it: http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/4dtv/dbsrainfade/dbsrainfade.htm


I'm putting an end because you don't believe what I say. I am in EC. I saw the rain. I would not have lost signal in that rain except when the tree that was growing would droop from the water on the leaves.

You just need to be right and I don't really care. Feel right if you want to. If it makes you feel better about past decisions, go right ahead. I know my personal experience and you can't change that with any articles.

I was going to not even post this time because it felt it was not appropriate to discuss here especially in this thread but your constant barrage to prove yourself right needed one more post.

And I surrender. Be right if you need to be.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> Hopefully this will put an end to it:
> 
> http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/4dtv/dbsrainfade/dbsrainfade.htm


And I thought we weren't going to talk about non-Tivo dying products in this thread? Oh, wait, the thread is supposed to be about Tivo alternatives. So, what kind of DVRs are available for C Band?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Hopefully this will put an end to it:
> 
> http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/4dtv/dbsrainfade/dbsrainfade.htm


The first line of that doesn't sound right. " The 99% uptime is a lie". I wouldn't want a service with only 99% uptime. That means you have around 87 hours of downtime a year. I expect around 99.99% uptime.
Which is less than one hour of downtime a year. For my first five years of FiOS I easily had better than 99.99% uptime until they botched an upgrade to 150Mb/s back in 2012 and had me down for several days.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I wouldn't want a service with only 99% uptime. That means you have around 87 hours of downtime a year.


I had DirecTV for well over 10 years, multiple DirecTivos for much of that time with large drives recording several hours a day. I haven't watched ALL that stuff yet but probably by now about 75% of it. Does Smallville have a happy ending? Is Ken Jennings still on? (OK that one was an exaggeration.)

I'd guess my total downtime has been under an hour total.

What I did get (and seemingly more with heavy snow) was pixellation and even momentary freezing. Annoying. Add up all those seconds/minutes over 10 years and maybe we're talking 12-15 hours.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Clearly people's experience with satellite and cable reception varies widely, so why don't we leave it at that?

Perhaps we could actually talk about the DVRs offered by DirecTV and Dish as alternatives to Tivo instead?

I, for one, prefer the Hopper to the HR series. I understand the Hopper3 is pretty buggy, but so were the Hopper 2000 and Hopper w/Sling when they first came out too.

My parents have the HR44, and it is fine. All the basic DVR functionality is there, but not much else. If that is all you want and DirecTV appeals to you for whatever reason, it is a fine choice. It just wouldn't be my first choice if retail Tivo for OTA goes away. It would probably be my second, assuming I decided to pay for traditional TV service again.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

So I have to ask for those that think their Sat service was never or hardly down. How exactly do you know? Where you sitting in front of a TV 24/7? I don't remember any great amount of outage back when I had dish but they happened some when I was watching so I have to assume they also happened some when I wasn't watching.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ncted said:


> Clearly people's experience with satellite and cable reception varies widely, so why don't we leave it at that? Perhaps we could actually talk about the DVRs offered by DirecTV and Dish as alternatives to Tivo instead? I, for one, prefer the Hopper to the HR series. I understand the Hopper3 is pretty buggy, but so were the Hopper 2000 and Hopper w/Sling when they first came out too. My parents have the HR44, and it is fine. All the basic DVR functionality is there, but not much else. If that is all you want and DirecTV appeals to you for whatever reason, it is a fine choice. It just wouldn't be my first choice if retail Tivo for OTA goes away. It would probably be my second, assuming I decided to pay for traditional TV service again.


What is missing from an HR44? It can't do netlfix style streaming but it has full on demand. You can do out of home with an add on. You can share around the house with mini style boxes or rvu enabled devices and computers.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

I had DirecTV for many years, and Dish for a couple of years. Hopper is by far the better DVR (16 tuners, comm skip, 3hr guide, recordings on ext drive can be watched on any other box, more streaming apps). DirecTV even lost its Youtube app. So as far as apps, DirecTV's box is pretty sad. DirecTV's On Demand is pretty strong though. And I love the feature that lets you stream almost any live show from the beginning even if it wasn't buffered.

But each tends to leapfrog the other every few years. It just so happens Dish is way ahead at the moment.

One thing they both have in common is very high equipment and DVR fees compared to Tivo. Replacing my lifetime Roamio and 5 Minis with satellite hardware and service would increase my monthly bill by at least $60. Not to mention that my cable system has far more channels for the money compared to satellite packages.

As far as satellite goes, been there - done that. Things would have to be pretty grim at Tivo for me to go crawling back to satellite.

PSN or GetChannels on AppleTV paired with a HomeRun Prime looks like the most viable option to me at this point, assuming WMC dies in the mean time.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> What is missing from an HR44? It can't do netlfix style streaming but it has full on demand. You can do out of home with an add on. You can share around the house with mini style boxes or rvu enabled devices and computers.


Autohop, PTAT, Short on Tuners vs. Hopper3, some things about how the recurring timers are setup which I always forget until I have to set one up, The general haphazardness of the menu hierarchy, and I find the remote to be awkward with the trick play buttons on the top instead of where my thumb would naturally fall when holding the remote. It looks like they have a new remote that is laid out better now though.

There are some things I do like vs. the Hopper though. I like the snap-back when using trick play controls, similar to Tivo. It is a fine whole-home DVR. I just think Dish has the advantage when it comes to the things I care about.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Rain fade is a fact of life for DirecTV and Dish subscribers. I just don't buy that you've never had any sort of outage because it has to have gone out during one of our major storms. You'd be the first satellite subscriber I've talked to that has never seen rain fade.


The fact of the matter is that with a properly aligned dish, the outages are extremely infrequent, and the reliability of DirecTV is often better than cable, and typically second only to TelcoTV. Parts of FL see more rain fade, as they have some pretty nutty rain, but even during extreme weather events in the Northeast, the properly installed and dithered dishes with the full tripod mount properly lag bolted provide a solid, reliable signal. Also, a once in a blue moon summer afternoon thunderstorm outage will probably never be noticed, as there's nothing on TV in the afternoons in the summer.



mr.unnatural said:


> Hopefully this will put an end to it:
> 
> http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/4dtv/dbsrainfade/dbsrainfade.htm


Rainier is interesting, but they have no DVR, it requires a ~12 foot dish, you can only have one tuner, and they don't have any significant channels yet.



ncted said:


> Perhaps we could actually talk about the DVRs offered by DirecTV and Dish as alternatives to Tivo instead?


Good idea. HR54 and 4k Genie Minis vs. TiVo Roamio Pro with TiVo Minis as a whole-home DVR. Thoughts?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ncted said:


> Autohop, PTAT, Short on Tuners vs. Hopper3, some things about how the recurring timers are setup which I always forget until I have to set one up, The general haphazardness of the menu hierarchy, and I find the remote to be awkward with the trick play buttons on the top instead of where my thumb would naturally fall when holding the remote. It looks like they have a new remote that is laid out better now though. There are some things I do like vs. the Hopper though. I like the snap-back when using trick play controls, similar to Tivo. It is a fine whole-home DVR. I just think Dish has the advantage when it comes to the things I care about.


None of that is what you wrote. And all of those things are short term advantages. And definitely not what you should call simple Dvr functionality of missing.

You actually use the vendor remote? I haven't used a vendor remote in 15 years. Always use a universal and program it as I like it. Criticizing a Dvr for its remote is as silly as the peanut lovers for TiVo. I've never used it.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> None of that is what you wrote. And all of those things are short term advantages. And definitely not what you should call simple Dvr functionality of missing.
> 
> You actually use the vendor remote? I haven't used a vendor remote in 15 years. Always use a universal and program it as I like it. Criticizing a Dvr for its remote is as silly as the peanut lovers for TiVo. I've never used it.


Not sure what you mean by your first sentence. I gave examples of additional features not present on the Genie vs. the Hopper, plus examples of poor design.

Criticizing me for not wanting to waste my money or time on a programmable remote is just as silly as anything else. If a thing is designed to be useful, it should not require me to go buy something else to actually make it so. With HDMI CEC an ARC, I really have no need for a separate, programmable remote anyway.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ncted said:


> Not sure what you mean by your first sentence. I gave examples of additional features not present on the Genie vs. the Hopper, plus examples of poor design. Criticizing me for not wanting to waste my money or time on a programmable remote is just as silly as anything else. If a thing is designed to be useful, it should not require me to go buy something else to actually make it so. With HDMI CEC an ARC, I really have no need for a separate, programmable remote anyway.


You didn't give any examples of poor design. You gave your opinion of what you like better. The GUI for the HR series is more intuitive than the TiVo one.

Again. Criticism of a Dvr because of its remote is very 1990s. That is my opinion. Live with it.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

atmuscarella said:


> So I have to ask for those that think their Sat service was never or hardly down. How exactly do you know? Where you sitting in front of a TV 24/7? I don't remember any great amount of outage back when I had dish but they happened some when I was watching so I have to assume they also happened some when I wasn't watching.


I have multiple Genies and they are recording 24 hours a day so issues can be reviewed. There is no time when they are not recording. And I can tell you for sure there is plenty of outages.

As you stated, most don't realize it.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mr.unnatural said:


> 11:00AM - FWIW, it's raining hard in Elkridge, MD, and the satellite signal has been down for the better part of the last hour or so.


Do you have Dish or DirecTV?

If DirecTV, it would have been telling if you could pick up the SD channels on 101 (which people KNOW and even admit on the Satellite Forums works when the Ka HD Channels go out).

As for Dish, they ran HBO and Showtime at full bitrate full MPEG2 HD Resolution for 5+ years on 148 West (which is positioned some 20k+ miles over Hawaii).

I had a 2 meter dish (not the 18" DBS dish) pointed at it at 10 degrees above the horizon (as Hawaii is quite a distance away!). Even with a 2 meter dish, the low elevation where I had to look through 10x the atmosphere compared to most site locations, I would lose the Ku signal all the time with a storm 150 miles away - between me and the satellite.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> You didn't give any examples of poor design. You gave your opinion of what you like better. The GUI for the HR series is more intuitive than the TiVo one.
> 
> Again. Criticism of a Dvr because of its remote is very 1990s. That is my opinion. Live with it.


Actually, I gave 2 examples: the menu hierarchy (software) and the remote (hardware). If you do not care about the remote, great for you, but it sucks for everyone else. It is a common complaint, and it is the default interface to the box. If it wasn't poor design, why did they change it with the new remote?

As for the software failings of the box, I work for a software development company in the media space, and I can tell you UI is important. It is very clear from traffic patterns which elements are naturally intuitive and which are not. DirecTV should be able to get this information and make it better, but I suspect they are stuck with their original design because now they have a large installed base who have learned how to do things, so changing it now would be worse for the user than actually having a good design in the first place. At this point, it is only new users who have to suffer.

Anyway, these are my informed opinions. Feel free to disagree.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Does anyone here have any user experience with Google Fiber TV? If so, how does it compare with TiVo for features, convenience, and overall UI quality and flexibility?

I suspect that within the time frame that a TiVo demise could be imaginable (say, two to five years from now at the earliest), Google may represent an attractive alternative. If the user experience is comparable, the main drawbacks could be availability, content, and/or cost.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ncted said:


> Actually, I gave 2 examples: the menu hierarchy (software) and the remote (hardware). If you do not care about the remote, great for you, but it sucks for everyone else. It is a common complaint, and it is the default interface to the box. If it wasn't poor design, why did they change it with the new remote? As for the software failings of the box, I work for a software development company in the media space, and I can tell you UI is important. It is very clear from traffic patterns which elements are naturally intuitive and which are not. DirecTV should be able to get this information and make it better, but I suspect they are stuck with their original design because now they have a large installed base who have learned how to do things, so changing it now would be worse for the user than actually having a good design in the first place. At this point, it is only new users who have to suffer. Anyway, these are my informed opinions. Feel free to disagree.


They actually changed the remote to match the one they give hotels so they were the same. Remotes change all the time. Go buy a tv and find out.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> They actually changed the remote to match the one they give hotels so they were the same. Remotes change all the time. Go buy a tv and find out.


Sure. As I stated previously, the new remote looks like an improvement, but I do not have first hand experience.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

chiguy50 said:


> Does anyone here have any user experience with Google Fiber TV? If so, how does it compare with TiVo for features, convenience, and overall UI quality and flexibility?
> 
> I suspect that within the time frame that a TiVo demise could be imaginable (say, two to five years from now at the earliest), Google may represent an attractive alternative. If the user experience is comparable, the main drawbacks could be availability, content, and/or cost.


Google really has not put a focus on the TV side of the equation, so it's not a great DVR.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> You actually use the vendor remote? I haven't used a vendor remote in 15 years. Always use a universal and program it as I like it. Criticizing a Dvr for its remote is as silly as the peanut lovers for TiVo. I've never used it.


The remote is a very important part of the experience. Since the majority of what I do with my TV is watch TV on my TiVo, the Peanut is one of the big reasons that I don't have a universal remote!



ncted said:


> DirecTV should be able to get this information and make it better, but I suspect they are stuck with their original design because now they have a large installed base who have learned how to do things, so changing it now would be worse for the user than actually having a good design in the first place. At this point, it is only new users who have to suffer.


But the people who are used to something have those older boxes, so newer ones don't necessarily have to be the same. Comcast is a monopoly unlike DirecTV, but they have changed their remote a few times, and made a massive change going from iGuide to X1.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Bigg said:


> The remote is a very important part of the experience. Since the majority of what I do with my TV is watch TV on my TiVo, the Peanut is one of the big reasons that I don't have a universal remote!
> 
> But the people who are used to something have those older boxes, so newer ones don't necessarily have to be the same. Comcast is a monopoly unlike DirecTV, but they have changed their remote a few times, and made a massive change going from iGuide to X1.


Sure, DirecTV *could* change it if they want to. I was just suggesting the might not be because of all the negative feedback that kind of UI change would generate. When TWC went to Navigator from SARA and Passport, the tech support lines were jammed for a long time. Of course, it also sucked, so there is that. Given that previous changes from DirecTV to the UI have been pushed out to all "compatible" boxes, even if many of those boxes really weren't suited to run it. Dish is doing the same thing with their new Carbon UI, and the results are mixed at best.

If that is why DirecTV hasn't fixed their byzantine menu system, I cannot really blame them.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Bigg said:


> The remote is a very important part of the experience. Since the majority of what I do with my TV is watch TV on my TiVo, the Peanut is one of the big reasons that I don't have a universal remote!
> ...


Don't underestimate the power of the peanus. Have you ever seen the peanus take a break?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> I'm putting an end because you don't believe what I say. I am in EC. I saw the rain. I would not have lost signal in that rain except when the tree that was growing would droop from the water on the leaves.
> 
> You just need to be right and I don't really care. Feel right if you want to. If it makes you feel better about past decisions, go right ahead. I know my personal experience and you can't change that with any articles.
> 
> ...


Tony, I'm not trying to prove you right or wrong or anything in between. If you've never experienced rain fade then forgive me for being skeptical. You seem to think that rain fade doesn't exist because you've never seen it or that there must be something wrong with the installation. I see it firsthand quite often and I'm not that far away from you. Perhaps it happens at times when you're not watching or recording live TV. It could depend a lot on which transponders are being used so while I'm seeing lack of signal you're looking at a completely different transponder with a clear signal.

The only point I was trying to make is that rain fade is a real thing and it does happen. If it never happens to you then consider yourself extremely lucky and part of a small minority. Just google "DirecTV rain fade" and you'll see that I'm not the only one that's ever experienced it. It's not something that will generally cause a long outage, but it can be annoying if you're watching TV when it happens. It's rare, but I have seen loss of satellite signal extend for long periods. The weather has to be near Biblical proportions, but it has happened.

Just to be clear, I personally do not have DirecTV at the moment. My company has a DirecTV setup in our break room and I frequent sports bars/pool halls that also have DirecTV and I've seen outages occur at every location in bad weather.



Bigg said:


> The fact of the matter is that with a properly aligned dish, the outages are extremely infrequent, and the reliability of DirecTV is often better than cable, and typically second only to TelcoTV. Parts of FL see more rain fade, as they have some pretty nutty rain, but even during extreme weather events in the Northeast, the properly installed and dithered dishes with the full tripod mount properly lag bolted provide a solid, reliable signal.


That all depends on your provider. If they've built a solid infrastructure you should be able to maintain a good signal even in bad weather. Outages with cable in bad weather are due to other factors than rain fade, like idiots running into utility poles and such. One point you neglect to mention is that cable providers all get their signals from satellites so we're back to square one again. However, cable providers have much better dishes with higher gain than DBS providers so they'll always receive a better signal.



> Also, a once in a blue moon summer afternoon thunderstorm outage will probably never be noticed, as there's nothing on TV in the afternoons in the summer.


Clearly, you're not a Cubs fan.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

If anyone has an Xbox One, this looks interesting. DVR ability coming soon.

Watch TV on Your Windows PC, Too

The Hauppauge Digital TV Tuner for Xbox One comes with an activation code for the new Hauppauge WinTV v8 application for Windows 10, 8.1, 8, and 7. Watch TV in a window or full screen. Record digital TV programs to your PCs disk drive. Works with both laptop and desktop PCs.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2956599/video/xbox-one-is-getting-over-the-air-dvr-with-caveats.html

http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Dig...rue&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_2&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> Just to be clear, I personally do not have DirecTV at the moment. My company has a DirecTV setup in our break room and I frequent sports bars/pool halls that also have DirecTV and I've seen outages occur at every location in bad weather.
> 
> That all depends on your provider. If they've built a solid infrastructure you should be able to maintain a good signal even in bad weather. Outages with cable in bad weather are due to other factors than rain fade, like idiots running into utility poles and such. One point you neglect to mention is that cable providers all get their signals from satellites so we're back to square one again. However, cable providers have much better dishes with higher gain than DBS providers so they'll always receive a better signal.


I can second your observations. My last job was in a three story warehouse on a tall hill with no obstructions. If the weather was severe we had to gather in the break room and several times the signal was out for a few minutes.
My cable feed has very large dishes which are also very high and without obstructions. Yet with severe weather there have been momentary outages.

And nothing stops solar interference.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

Rkkeller said:


> If anyone has an Xbox One, this looks interesting. DVR ability coming soon.
> 
> Watch TV on Your Windows PC, Too
> 
> ...


Nearly worthless as Xbox TV app has been utter crap since NXOE was released. Live tv via the tuner or hdmi in stutters all the time even when you manually quit all the backgrround games or apps. It's been since November and there seems to be no fixes in sight.

If they cant even fix live tv, there is no way recording tv will function.

Also, their tuner only supports 1 channel tuning and has no support for cable card or tuning adapters.

This is entirely NOT an alternative to Tivo.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ncted said:


> Sure, DirecTV could change it if they want to. I was just suggesting the might not be because of all the negative feedback that kind of UI change would generate. When TWC went to Navigator from SARA and Passport, the tech support lines were jammed for a long time. Of course, it also sucked, so there is that. Given that previous changes from DirecTV to the UI have been pushed out to all "compatible" boxes, even if many of those boxes really weren't suited to run it. Dish is doing the same thing with their new Carbon UI, and the results are mixed at best. If that is why DirecTV hasn't fixed their byzantine menu system, I cannot really blame them.


Stop. The directv menu system is clean and straight forward. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Rkkeller said:


> If anyone has an Xbox One, this looks interesting. DVR ability coming soon.
> 
> Watch TV on Your Windows PC, Too
> 
> ...


Microsoft has been heading in this direction for quite a while but are finally coming up with the product they announced ages ago. Wow, a DVR with the ability to use just one tuner! Not exactly ground breaking or even desirable in today's world of multi-tuner DVRs. And it's OTA only so you're somewhat limited in your choices of shows to watch and record. The tuner looks like a rebadged Hauppauge HVR-950Q


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm sure everybody has a cable feed with this information. Like I said, solar events affect everyone.
http://activekb.secv.com/activekb/q...n+at+the+same+time+for+several+days+in+a+row?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> I'm sure everybody has a cable feed with this information. Like I said, solar events affect everyone.
> http://activekb.secv.com/activekb/q...n+at+the+same+time+for+several+days+in+a+row?


Actually it can be prevented with different receive stations at different geographical locations, as sun outages are easy to determine years in advance.

That is how most MVPDs work around it - although more and more are supplying programming via fiber to the Head End.

For example, FiOS with 2 SuperHead ends can switch to the other (and does) so you never see a Sun Outage.

Dish and DirecTV have the disadvantage that the final downlink to your home will most certainly go out - no stopping that.

But again, that does not mean that EVERYONE has that issue.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncted said:


> If that is why DirecTV hasn't fixed their byzantine menu system, I cannot really blame them.


They could have done it only on newer boxes or newer systems. I've never really used the Genie boxes, so I don't know exactly what you're referring to. I've heard people say that DirecTV's channel lineup is way better than cable's, but I've also heard people complain and say that it makes no sense whatsoever, so I don't know who to believe. Automatic HD channels is a really nice feature, as on Comcast, the HD channels are in the 1000's, but there is no way to tell which SD channels are available in HD on a given system, and they vary quite a bit system to system.



mr.unnatural said:


> That all depends on your provider. If they've built a solid infrastructure you should be able to maintain a good signal even in bad weather. Outages with cable in bad weather are due to other factors than rain fade, like idiots running into utility poles and such. One point you neglect to mention is that cable providers all get their signals from satellites so we're back to square one again. However, cable providers have much better dishes with higher gain than DBS providers so they'll always receive a better signal.


Yeah, C-Band is far less susceptible to weather related issues, although it does happen occasionally. They also won't lose everything at once, as they pull from many satellites, and they pull locals in over fiber connections.

Yeah, it's tough to control people running into stuff, and lines physically getting cut. Phone and fiber are generally the most resilient, but they can, at some point, be physically damaged.

The biggest challenges cable has is with water getting into stuff, especially in areas with underground lines that can flood out, and then during power outages, their nodes require power. AT&T was really good about putting generators out for VRADs, Comcast started to use little generators for nodes in targeted areas with spotty power, but there are so many of them that it's a big task. FIOS is far more robust, as they don't have to do anything. The CO is on a fueling contract for the diesels, and then it's all passive until you hit the end user's ONT.



mr.unnatural said:


> Microsoft has been heading in this direction for quite a while but are finally coming up with the product they announced ages ago. Wow, a DVR with the ability to use just one tuner! Not exactly ground breaking or even desirable in today's world of multi-tuner DVRs. And it's OTA only so you're somewhat limited in your choices of shows to watch and record. The tuner looks like a rebadged Hauppauge HVR-950Q


The problem is that there are a ton of good OTA DVR software packages out there. Meanwhile, MCE is the only one that has full CableCard functionality, and it sucks. It would be cool if the SiliconDust HDHomerunDVR pans out to something, but as it stands now, it doesn't really sound like it will. Just slapping some functionality onto an XBOX doesn't sound like anything worth taking note of.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

You can argue value and even usability to a point but it is utter nonsense that the directv lineup doesn't make sense. It is the best organized lineup around and others are starting to mimic it. 

All programming types are in 100 blocks and HD and SD have the same number. You can tell the box to show only HD when both exist and still see your SD channels.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> You can argue value and even usability to a point but it is utter nonsense that the directv lineup doesn't make sense. It is the best organized lineup around and others are starting to mimic it.
> 
> All programming types are in 100 blocks and HD and SD have the same number. You can tell the box to show only HD when both exist and still see your SD channels.


General Agreement, but CNN Should still be in the 350 range And all sports in the 600s


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> General Agreement, but CNN Should still be in the 350 range And all sports in the 600s


National sports in 200s. Regional sports in 600s. Pretty simple.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> Stop. The directv menu system is clean and straight forward. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?


Yes.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> You can argue value and even usability to a point but it is utter nonsense that the directv lineup doesn't make sense. It is the best organized lineup around and others are starting to mimic it.
> 
> All programming types are in 100 blocks and HD and SD have the same number. You can tell the box to show only HD when both exist and still see your SD channels.


The channel lineup is better on DirecTV than any cable company I've seen so far. The issues I have are with the configuration of the boxes and timers/season passes.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The FIOS lineup is pretty straightforward. All of the SD channels are below 500 and they're grouped by category. To find the corresponding HD channel you just add 500 to the channel number and you're there for most channels.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> The FIOS lineup is pretty straightforward. All of the SD channels are below 500 and they're grouped by category. To find the corresponding HD channel you just add 500 to the channel number and you're there for most channels.


And I can't get used to it. It annoys me that half the Starz! Channels are in the 300s and half are in the 800s. But at least they mostly have the +500 thing going. But why do movies start at 840 rather than a nice round number?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ncted said:


> The channel lineup is better on DirecTV than any cable company I've seen so far. The issues I have are with the configuration of the boxes and timers/season passes.


TWC's national channel lineup is actually quite nice. Entertainment channels are 100-199, news channels 200-249, kids channels 250-70, music channels 285-299, sports 300-450, religious channels 460-465, shopping channels 480-500, movie channels 500-650. And all channel numbers are unified HD/SD, so you get the HD channel if it's available and the SD if it's not.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> And I can't get used to it. It annoys me that half the Starz! Channels are in the 300s and half are in the 800s. But at least they mostly have the +500 thing going. But why do movies start at 840 rather than a nice round number?


I'm not sure where you're getting that. The 300's are all SD channels and the 800s are all the HD versions of the same channels so they're all there but grouped together in separate locations. The only difference is that there appears to be both an east and west coast feed for two of the Starz channels in the SD lineup. Personally, I prefer to keep my SD and HD lineups completely separate so I like it just the way it is. I only watch HD channels so anything below 500 isn't even on my radar.

I'm pretty sure you can create your own personalized lineups to eliminate any channels you don't watch. I rarely watch live TV so the only time I need to use the guide is when I set up a recording. The rare occasion I do use the lineup is when I'm trying to find out which channel the Capitals game is airing on. I can't remember the last time I watched a movie that aired on cable.

There are far too many things to worry about in this world than griping about a TV lineup. I'd rather concentrate on what's important, such as when I get to retire or how I'm going to tackle my next home improvement project. The irony is that when I finally do get to retire, I'll probably have less time to watch TV since I'll be dealing with the Honey Do list that's been piling up all these years.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting that. The 300's are all SD channels and the 800s are all the HD versions of the same channels so they're all there but grouped together in separate locations. The only difference is that there appears to be both an east and west coast feed for two of the Starz channels in the SD lineup. Personally, I prefer to keep my SD and HD lineups completely separate so I like it just the way it is. I only watch HD channels so anything below 500 isn't even on my radar. I'm pretty sure you can create your own personalized lineups to eliminate any channels you don't watch. I rarely watch live TV so the only time I need to use the guide is when I set up a recording. The rare occasion I do use the lineup is when I'm trying to find out which channel the Capitals game is airing on. I can't remember the last time I watched a movie that aired on cable. There are far too many things to worry about in this world than griping about a TV lineup. I'd rather concentrate on what's important, such as when I get to retire or how I'm going to tackle my next home improvement project. The irony is that when I finally do get to retire, I'll probably have less time to watch TV since I'll be dealing with the Honey Do list that's been piling up all these years.


Exactly. The Starz SD is not near the Starz HD and not all Starz channels are HD.

And of course I use favorites.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> The channel lineup is better on DirecTV than any cable company I've seen so far. The issues I have are with the configuration of the boxes and timers/season passes.


Season Passes/Wish List MUCH more powerful with Directv. At least you can specify channel(s) and not put up with the no-matching BS in the Todo list.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Exactly. The Starz SD is not near the Starz HD and not all Starz channels are HD.
> 
> And of course I use favorites.


That's ridiculous. Who would want both the SD and HD channels intermixed? There's a perfectly logical reason why the SD and HD channels are kept separate. The only two Starz channels not in HD are the two west coast feeds, which are exactly the same as the east coast feeds except that they're offset by three hours. With a DVR the actual time a program airs becomes irrelevant since you can record it and play it back anytime you want. The complete negates the need for the two extra Starz SD channels since anything shown on those two channels is available in HD.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's ridiculous. Who would want both the SD and HD channels intermixed? There's a perfectly logical reason why the SD and HD channels are kept separate. The only two Starz channels not in HD are the two west coast feeds, which are exactly the same as the east coast feeds except that they're offset by three hours. With a DVR the actual time a program airs becomes irrelevant since you can record it and play it back anytime you want. The complete negates the need for the two extra Starz SD channels since anything shown on those two channels is available in HD.


Oh yes. Why would anyone want like channels together? Let's just randomly put them in the lineup then.

And the stupid "I have a Dvr so I never ever just tune in to watch something I didn't record" nonsense. Because no one ever just watches something on a whim.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh yes. Why would anyone want like channels together? Let's just randomly put them in the lineup then.
> 
> And the stupid "I have a Dvr so I never ever just tune in to watch something I didn't record" nonsense. Because no one ever just watches something on a whim.


OK, Tony. You win. The discussion is pointless and stupid. The logic in the FIOS lineup clearly escapes you so there's no point in beating a dead horse. Enjoy your DirecTV. Just don't be surprised if you eventually do lose the signal in heavy weather.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> OK, Tony. You win. The discussion is pointless and stupid. The logic in the FIOS lineup clearly escapes you so there's no point in beating a dead horse. Enjoy your DirecTV. Just don't be surprised if you eventually do lose the signal in heavy weather.


I am strictly on fios now. A tree that I don't own grew into my line of sight. Which is a legit thing about satellite.

And keeping SD and HD separate is dumb. If you don't want to watch SD, they are marked. And you can customize the guide to filter them out. Why bother grouping channels at all if you aren't going to group them?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

TonyD79 said:


> Why bother grouping channels at all if you aren't going to group them?


Seriously?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> I am strictly on fios now. A tree that I don't own grew into my line of sight. Which is a legit thing about satellite.
> 
> And keeping SD and HD separate is dumb. If you don't want to watch SD, they are marked. And you can customize the guide to filter them out. Why bother grouping channels at all if you aren't going to group them?


Sounds to me like your real complaint isn't with the way FIOS groups the channels. It's with the fact that FIOS doesn't carry the HD feed of Starz Pacific.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sounds to me like your real complaint isn't with the way FIOS groups the channels. It's with the fact that FIOS doesn't carry the HD feed of Starz Pacific.


Not really. The SD versions in fios are watchable although I'd prefer the HD ones. I can make that judgement on a case by case basis. But as the channels are separated by 500 numbers in the guide, you have to look elsewhere to see what is on. It means the guide is not organized in a way that is conducive to finding like movies.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

TonyD79 said:


> Why bother grouping channels at all if you aren't going to group them?


I agree. On DISH the movie channels start at 300 and go to 388. Generally all are there with a couple that are not movie channels. (Because there is a movie package with a couple of non movie channels) Also SD and HD are the same channel number, you can set it so that when you pick a channel it goes to the HD first, and of course there are four guides you set to what you want.
Non RSN sports are together and RSN's are all together as are the News channels mostly.

As for losing the signal during storms, I have had DISH over 15 years. The times cable is out to the very few times I have lost the Satellite signal isn't even close.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

tampa8 said:


> I agree. On DISH the movie channels start at 300 and go to 388. Generally all are there with a couple that are not movie channels. (Because there is a movie package with a couple of non movie channels) Also SD and HD are the same channel number, you can set it so that when you pick a channel it goes to the HD first, and of course there are four guides you set to what you want. Non RSN sports are together and RSN's are all together as are the News channels mostly. As for losing the signal during storms, I have had DISH over 15 years. The times cable is out to the very few times I have lost the Satellite signal isn't even close.


I didn't realize Dish did the duplicate thing too. Good for them. It works better than any other method.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Oh yes. Why would anyone want like channels together? Let's just randomly put them in the lineup then.
> 
> And the stupid "I have a Dvr so I never ever just tune in to watch something I didn't record" nonsense. Because no one ever just watches something on a whim.


The DirecTV way of doing things makes a heck of a lot more sense. If cable didn't have so much legacy equipment out there, they could just get rid of the SD mirrors of HD channels, and that would work too.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

DevdogAZ said:


> Sounds to me like your real complaint isn't with the way FIOS groups the channels. It's with the fact that FIOS doesn't carry the HD feed of Starz Pacific.


They used to carry many of the West Coast Feeds, but dropped them for additional HD Feeds.


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Google really has not put a focus on the TV side of the equation, so it's not a great DVR.


Google Fiber TV is based on SageTV which they bought. I haven't seen Google's implementation, but SageTV was an awesome multi-media center and their TV stuff was really strong. Unfortunately, most of Sage's strength was the customer base that did all kinds of customization. I suspect this is no longer possible with Google Fiber.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

toricred said:


> Google Fiber TV is based on SageTV which they bought. I haven't seen Google's implementation, but SageTV was an awesome multi-media center and their TV stuff was really strong. Unfortunately, most of Sage's strength was the customer base that did all kinds of customization. I suspect this is no longer possible with Google Fiber.


Correct, SageTV's strength was its end users customization.


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## anonymoususer (Jul 18, 2005)

DAN203 said:
There are about 3x as many cable DVRs deployed with TiVo software then retail DVRs.

Where does one obtain this kind of deployment info? How many TiVo Units of each series number (648, 652, etc) are in use?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

anonymoususer said:


> DAN203 said:
> There are about 3x as many cable DVRs deployed with TiVo software then retail DVRs.
> 
> Where does one obtain this kind of deployment info? How many TiVo Units of each series number (648, 652, etc) are in use?


For MSO deployments versus retail you can check TiVo's quarterly financial report and I think it's over 5 times as many now.

They don't provide any specifics though on how many of each model are still in use.

Scott


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