# Who else is ready to jump?



## eric23

Hi all. It's been a while since I posted to the forums.

I just wondered if anyone else has got as frustrated as I have with TiVo's non-presence in the UK? I'm so fed up with all the lies we're fed about TiVo still being interested in the UK market. It's quite obvious they're not. They're just happy to bleed us dry of our £10 monthly subscriptions.

I have been so reluctant to move away from TiVo up until this point, but now that Sky's HD service is soon to be launched, I will definitely be moving away from TiVo. I've been a loyal TiVo customer for what must be 5 years now (wow, is it really that long - that means they've had £900 from me over the years!).

It is the sad reality that Sky really have the UK market completely sewn up, and will have dominated it even further when SkyHD arrives with Sky+ built in. TiVo's big mistake, IMO, was involving Sky in their UK venture. (Yes, they also didn't get the marketing right in the way that Sky did with Sky+, and of course they also didn't sort out the small issue of THERE NOT BEING A MANUFACTURER MAKING ANY BOXES FOR THEM!)

It makes me so angry to see what's happening with TiVo in the US. Not only all of the hundreds of new features in Series 2 machines, but all of the TiVoToGo functionality, online scheduling (which is SO neat) etc. etc.

So I'm wondering, *is anyone/everyone else feeling the same way?*

Trust me, I'm extremely sorry to reach this conclusion. Until three years ago, I was one of the "word spreaders", getting people to convert to TiVo.

I was quite happy to sit by and await TiVo's new plans for the UK. But so long has gone past now, that I'm no longer buying any of it.

I've also been looking into the various PC/Mac based solutions. I would love it if TiVo made a version of their software to run on a PC. If only it were open source - I'm sure somebody here would have done it already ;-)

But as nothing like that exists, does anyone know of any alternatives? It seems Meedio is quite popular and doesn't have any subscription fees (as it uses something called XMLTV to pull of EPG data).

Surely I'm not the only one that's reached the end of their tether?!

_(And in the very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very unlikely event that anyone from TiVo US actually reads these forums any more - GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER or subscriber numbers will start dropping off very steeply this year as others get in on the PVR act!)_


----------



## GarySargent

There is still no PVR available that comes near TiVo in terms of functionality and easy of use. Essentially you're just bored with your TiVo and want something new to play with.

I'll certainly be getting SkyHD when it arrives, but I'll only use it to record HD material.


----------



## AMc

Fairly predictably for a regular poster on a fan boy forum - I don't feel like you. I bought a Tivo for £230 about 5 years(?) ago and paid £200 the lifetime upfront. It seemed like a lot but I knew how I'd feel after 21 months if I didn't.

Some listing problems are irritating - especially the recent ER debarcle - but the pros out weigh the cons by a long way.

Telewest are also showing HD content but I'm not too concerned about that until I need to replace my SD TV.

I'd love a new HD capable Tivo but I save my anger for more important things like the imposition of ID cards and errosion of our civil liberties in the name of freedom...rant rant rant.


----------



## cwaring

GarySargent said:


> There is still no PVR available that comes near TiVo in terms of functionality and easy of use.





AMc said:


> Fairly predictably for a regular poster on a fan boy forum - I don't feel like you.


But is he wrong?


----------



## cyril

Well I am angry too.
But is difficult to point the finger at any one party.
Are TiVo's license fees too high?
Is Sky's management too stubborn and too cash-driven to allow us the best PVR in the world?


----------



## Nebulous

Well I for one agree with Eric, we are being left out in the cold by Tivo. I have had a Tivo for donkey's years and am sure that bits will start dropping off soon. When it finally expires, I want to be able to pop down the shops and buy another one. My only option today is to go onto ebay and buy someone else's old banger to replace it with. 
I know Tivo don't actually make the hardware, but there are plenty of manufacturers out there that do. Maybe Tivo are not making the licensing attractive enough for a manufacturer to take on the UK again. IMO it would be fairly easy for a manufacturer to modify their latest US design for the UK market. How hard can it be :

1.	Tweak software to use 50Hz 625 line video instead of 60Hz 525 line.
2.	Change connectors on the back for scarts
3.	Change PSU to 240V (most psu's are dual standard these days anyway)

I can't think of anything else that would need to be different for the UK. (maybe the modem, but most people would use the internet these days)

The Tivo interface is brilliant and I would hate to see it disappear. 
I know I can buy a media centre or some such, but its all a bit OTT, I just want a quiet, low power, discreet box under my telly that records stuff I like.

Ah, glad I got that off my chest


----------



## blindlemon

Nebulous said:


> My only option today is to go onto ebay and buy someone else's old banger


Not necessarily.

If you keep your eyes peeled you can still pick up virtually new, unused boxes. I bought one the other day that still had the 1.5 software and had obviously not been plugged in for more than a couple of hours :up:

With a nice cool, quiet HA250JC drive, a cachecard and RAM that will go on for another 5 years, easily - which should be long enough for TiVo Inc. to pull its finger out...


----------



## Nebulous

blindlemon said:


> Not necessarily. If you keep your eyes peeled you can still pick up virtually new, unused boxes...


Ah, but that relies on good luck and good timing. I can guarantee that neither will be in abundance on the day my Tivo goes up in smoke


----------



## ndunlavey

I don't get it. I have a TiVo. It works, and I get the listings. Why would I want to stop using it?


----------



## mrtickle

eric23 said:


> Hi all. It's been a while since I posted to the forums.


Hi!



> I've been a loyal TiVo customer for what must be 5 years now (wow, is it really that long - that means they've had £900 from me over the years!).


That is probably the main reason you feel as you do. I am against continuous endless payments, and I bought the lifetime option. Total cost £400. If it hadn't been available I would not have bought a TiVo. However your want of new hardware is a separate issue to the fact that you spent £900 instead of £400.

If a new TiVo was launched tomorrow does that mean you'd be happy to buy it, and carry on paying £10/month until you've spent another £900? And you are annoyed that you can't give them another £900? I can't follow the logic. How many monthly payers won't intend to replace the hardware (if a new model was launched) anyway?


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

ndunlavey said:


> I don't get it. I have a TiVo. It works, and I get the listings. Why would I want to stop using it?


Well...we've moved on a bit haven't we? The radio thing is a pain in the arse but not disastrous. The worst problem for me is needing 2 satellite channels at once, as i've got awful terrestrial & DTT signals. Occasional errors meaning the channel didn't change properly, the lag when channel surfing are minor irritants too. I'm really going to miss the tivo interface though, when SKY HD is looking like a stable proposition, i'm jumping. If i could have a UK DirecTiVo, i really would.


----------



## cyril

As far as I am concerned, HD is the ONLY reason to jump ship so far, unless you have a WMC and a few xbox 360s .

If you want 2 tuners just get 2 TiVos if you have space and cash.


----------



## ndunlavey

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> Well...we've moved on a bit haven't we?


Moved on in what way? While TiVo is far from perfect, I can't find anything that does what it does better. I'd like to have more control over how the programmes are displayed, and over how wishlists work, but what's available that does it better? While there are devices that will record two channels at once, they all seem to have crap user interfaces, and it's not worth that price for an occasional conflict.


> The radio thing is a pain in the arse but not disastrous.


What radio thing?


----------



## cwaring

I assuming he's meaning the change to 4 digits, but that's a Sky problem not a Tivo problem.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

cyril said:


> As far as I am concerned, HD is the ONLY reason to jump ship so far, unless you have a WMC and a few xbox 360s .
> 
> If you want 2 tuners just get 2 TiVos if you have space and cash.


haha. a most impractical solution indeed!


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

cwaring said:


> I assuming he's meaning the change to 4 digits, but that's a Sky problem not a Tivo problem.


well, not really, it's my problem isn't it? TiVo have manfully tried to do something about it, but it's far from ideal.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

ndunlavey said:


> Moved on in what way? While TiVo is far from perfect, I can't find anything that does what it does better. I'd like to have more control over how the programmes are displayed, and over how wishlists work, but what's available that does it better? While there are devices that will record two channels at once, they all seem to have crap user interfaces, and it's not worth that price for an occasional conflict.
> 
> What radio thing?


In terms of what's on when...the arrival of More4 for example, put The West Wing onto satellite only for me, at 9pm primetime, causing schedule conflict. It happens to my viewing perhaps 3 times a week. I don't think the Sky+ UI is significantly that much poorer, and it's certainly snappier. Wishlists is the only thing I can thnk of that I can't do In Sky+ - but then, i'm a vanilla, unhacked TiVo chap.


----------



## sanderton

Having had five years plus of excellent service from my TiVos I don't feel any anger, a rather odd emotion under the circumstances IMHO, just disappointment that I'm being forced to abandon them.

I've already switched my viewing of the non-subscription channels to MCE via Xbox 360s for picture quality and multiple tuner reasons; the arrival of Sky HD will mean my battered old living room TiVo finally being retired. There is virtually nothing I watch on subscription channels which is not on Sky One or Sky Sports, and I can't justify a mirror sub for the odd show on Home & Leisure.


----------



## cyril

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> haha. a most impractical solution indeed!


Works great for me, and quite a few others here!

Much better than Sky plus or any competing UK offering except WMC.

So not the best solution, but given the lack of decent TiVo competition it is the only solution viable for me.

Having multiple TiVos gives you great flexibilty:

redundancy, ability to take one to Europe with you, outputting to 2 different TVs with 2 different signals, offloading one to dvd while still watching another , upgradeable to 800GB or maybe 1TB each etc...

To get an 8 or more Tuner 8TB PVR system, you would have to buy more than 32 Skyplus or freeview recorders, or 4 WMC systems, so TiVo was the cheaper option .
Admittedly the 32 Sky plus or Freeview systems would have 64 tuners, but I don't need that many .


----------



## cwaring

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> In terms of what's on when...the arrival of More4 for example, put The West Wing onto satellite only for me, at 9pm primetime, causing schedule conflict.


 It's also repeated three more times on that channel, more if you count the +1  So where's the problem? I haven't used it enough to fine out yet, but I don't think the BRAND NEW TW TVDrive is intelligent enough to scheule a later showing if there's a programme clash, but then it does have two tuners  Which was possibly your point, but at least Tivo will get it for you without your intervention 

"Only on Satellite"? Is it on on Freeview? It's certainly here on Cable.

Sorry if I've missed your point.



JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> well, not really, it's my problem isn't it? TiVo have manfully tried to do something about it, but it's far from ideal.


What I meant was that it is Sky that has caused the problem by changing their system for no real reason than they wanted to.


----------



## slim

I've had a TiVO + lifetime subscription since '99 or so, but I bought myself a Freeview PVR at Christmas, for a bit less than £100, and now use the TiVO quite rarely - mostly as a backup, really.

The TiVO's interface and features are greatly to be preferred, BUT the remote control drives me insane, and the Freeview box records the incoming digital directly, so there's no loss of quality - a lot nicer than viewing the TiVO's buffer, even at best quality.

If I watched TV more often I'd use the TiVO mainly, but I'm happy to select recordings manually at the moment (my Freeview PVR has no 'season ticket' feature, although some do).


----------



## iankb

I will jump ship when there is something better and cheap enough to jump to.

I have no intention of letting HD into my house until there is a platform that supports it in quantity. I see absolutely no point in getting a large screen to watch HD on, when all that will do is emphasise the poor quality of the non-HD programs (unless you can afford a very expensive scaler). I have a Sky subscription at the moment, but will abandon that as soon as my digibox fails.

A TiVo is still the best solution, when compared to the somewhat more-expensive Windows MCE.

Also, I don't think it is TiVo that is letting use down. It's the manufacturers who, having seen the (undoubted) loss that Thomson made from the UK Series 1, will be very wary of following in their footsteps. OK, TiVo's business model is part of the problem, but then they aren't a charity, and they are still having problems trying to make a profit in the larger and more-established US market.


----------



## simon

I have thought about jumping recently too. I was getting annoyed with the slow menus etc - it's just feeling a bit tired. I also like the idea of replacing my Showcenter and TiVo with one unit.

So I bought a tuner card, tried MCE and tried a gazillion different flavors of free and paid for PVR software.

I havent found one that is simple to use, and as feature rich as TiVo and I also couldn't be bothered fighting with my main entertainment center unit to upgrade software etc every so often.

I would much prefer an out of the box hardware based solution, and will change when that comes along. Plus the peanut remote is fantastic.

P.S. I have ordered an XBox to replace my Showcenter, by running XBMC.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

cyril said:


> Works great for me, and quite a few others here!
> 
> Much better than Sky plus or any competing UK offering except WMC.
> 
> So not the best solution, but given the lack of decent TiVo competition it is the only solution viable for me.


in my case that would require another tivo, another digibox, a sub for each! unjustifiable expense i'm afraid.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

cwaring said:


> It's also repeated three more times on that channel, more if you count the +1  So where's the problem
> 
> What I meant was that it is Sky that has caused the problem by changing their system for no real reason than they wanted to.


I have to think about it a little too much i suppose..."oh, I want to see that, I will have to cancel the record on more4, set one up on more4+1" - then the next week I want to go back to seeing it at 9pm when the other show isn't on, as I want to see it as soon as possible, 'cos I'm like that. It's all a bit academic anyhow, as I will need to get Sky HD to watch the stuff I'm going to be making. It's very exciting to be doing 5.1 for Broadcast in the UK.


----------



## healeydave

I guess people that have not delved deep into their tivo and are only using the out of the box features, might well think be tempted to move even though Tivo's core features have been poorly imitated and implemented in the other PVR's to-date.

Those people that utilise their tivo from work through the networking features, get emails from their tivo, do video extraction, syncronise with mobile media devices, etc. etc. would find it difficult to consider moving on just yet I think.

I have an xbox 360 which I have to admit I only purchased in December to challenge the theory that they couldn't be gotten hold of. Its been sat upstairs gathering dust ever since, so Stuart (Sanderton) has got me thinking now perhaps I should see what it can do but I fear I will be disspointed.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

I simply don't have the time or inclination to get into installing boards, linux shells, running scripts etc...apart from the obvious handicap of potentially buggering the thing up, I don't have a PC on which to mount the drives to fiddle with them and all that. It's not how the PVR experience should be, for me!


----------



## simon

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I simply don't have the time or inclination to get into installing boards, linux shells, running scripts etc...apart from the obvious handicap of potentially buggering the thing up, I don't have a PC on which to mount the drives to fiddle with them and all that. It's not how the PVR experience should be, for me!


I agree, I could argue that I could make* the time to do all those things, but I don't want to. I want to plug it in, and that should be the extent of the trouble.

* I can't actually "make time", just a figure of speech. I can't make matter either. Or energy. In fact the more I type, it seems I can't even make sense!


----------



## gastrof

Nebulous said:


> ...IMO it would be fairly easy for a manufacturer to modify their latest US design for the UK market. How hard can it be :
> 
> 1.	Tweak software to use 50Hz 625 line video instead of 60Hz 525 line.
> 2.	Change connectors on the back for scarts
> 3.	Change PSU to 240V (most psu's are dual standard these days anyway)
> 
> I can't think of anything else that would need to be different for the UK. (maybe the modem, but most people would use the internet these days)...


 

And the "small" matter of the US having NTSC tuners and the UK having PAL?


----------



## wonderboy

I think it's about time Tivo made a statement about exactly what their plans are for the UK.


Will they be modifying a Series3 box so it's UK comapatible ?
will the taiwan boxes someone mentioned be useable?
Will they be modifing their USA software to work in UK?

They can't just go on like this, keeping everyone hanging on, it's been years now and it's just unprofessional the way they have handled the situation. And you're right it annoys people.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

I might be looking at the new Mac mini and a Sky HD combo. Loads of my viewing is downloaded and HD downloads from the US are showing up on usenet.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

wonderboy said:


> I think it's about time Tivo made a statement about exactly what their plans are for the UK.
> .


It's been obvious for years they have no ability to progress in the UK. As soon as enough £10 a month subscribers jump ship, they'll stop the UK support. I have always paid my £10 as opposed to a lifetime sub, in the hope that the service would be sustained, as opposed to the no-cashflow lifetime model. That's the only thing keeping it going IMHO.


----------



## KiNeL

I'm a recent convert to TiVo and I wish I'd gone for it years ago, I now can't imagine being without it.

Everyone's priorities will be different of course but for me, because I work away from home a lot, it's TiVoWeb which is the killer.

Currently I'm sitting on an oil rig in the middle of the North Sea telling my TiVo what to do, simply awesome - (Note to self: must get MyDigiguide module set up properly!).

My wife got stuck in traffic yesterday and phoned me to schedule a recording for her so the approval factor is another highly significant point.

What else is there that can deliver what TiVo does AND for a typical one off cost of under £400?

BTW, and poverty aside, (I can't think many destitute folks buy TiVo's) it totally escapes me as to why anyone would opt for the monthly payment instead of the lifetime sub...?!?!?!


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

KiNeL said:


> I'm a recent convert to TiVo and I wish I'd gone for it years ago, I now can't imagine being without it.
> 
> BTW, and poverty aside, (I can't think many destitute folks buy TiVo's) it totally escapes me as to why anyone would opt for the monthly payment instead of the lifetime sub...?!?!?!


because after the first financial year, your sub is off the radar for TiVo in the US and as subscribers for £10 per month dwindle, the service will be more and more in jeopardy to closure.


----------



## eric23

Well, my post certainly got a reaction! 



GarySargent said:


> Essentially you're just bored with your TiVo and want something new to play with.





AMc said:


> Fairly predictably for a regular poster on a fan boy forum


I'm not surprised by these reactions. I would have been defensive of TiVo Inc a few years ago.



Nebulous said:


> IMO it would be fairly easy for a manufacturer to modify their latest US design for the UK market.


I completely agree. I can't believe that none of the US manufacturers have jumped on board for the UK.



blindlemon said:


> With a nice cool, quiet HA250JC drive, a cachecard and RAM that will go on for another 5 years, easily - which should be long enough for TiVo Inc. to pull its finger out


IMO, TiVo Inc have already had plenty of time to pull its finger out. They have proven that they are quite happy to leave the UK market where it is. Trust me, year after year, I have sat here convincing myself "TiVo will get back into the UK with an updated product". At some point, you have to realise that nothing is going to happen and that it's time to move on. Unfortunately, for TiVo, I would have thought most PVR owners will also be HD early adopters - and those users will have no use for an SD PVR. Surprised they're dragging their heals with a HD TiVo in the States, I would have thought people there would be jumping ship too.

But that's not the only reason for me wanting to leave the world of TiVo. Quite simply, my technology is out of date. I was a fairly early adopter with TiVo, I am with most technologies - I am sure most of the people in this forum are the same. I want the new technologies I see on the US TiVo boxes, and on other PVRs.

I've wanted a PVR with a built in DVD writer for ages. I bought a Philips DVDR75 to do this, but it's a real pain to lay my TiVo programmes off to DVD manually, especially when you have a whole series of things to transfer. I convinced myself "TiVo will bring a UK model out, along with Series 2 when it comes". That was years ago when we were all discussing "will there be a Series 2 UK model".

I want to be able to flag programmes to watch, when I see an advert for it. Yes, TiVo was first with this functionality in the US. But Sky have ripped it off now!

I want to be able to have a nice online portal for scheduling my programmes to record. TiVo Central Online should have been in the UK a long time ago.

I want TiVoToGo functionality - I'd love to take my TiVo programmes off onto a Video iPod. It's coming to the US soon. But guess where it isn't coming to? That's right - the UK, with our crappy old Series 1 boxes!

I want to be able to browse my Now Playing more intelligently, using folders at the very least.

I want to be able to deal with Season Passes without having to wait 20 minutes for the machine to finish thinking about it. As it is, I cringe just thinking about sorting out my season passes.

I want a proper soft padding solution.

I want to be able to record more than one programme at once. Who would need soft padding then?! I bet TiVo tried to negotiate a DirecTiVo style box with Sky. But Sky already knew it had plans with Sky+. The longer this whole situation has been going on in the UK, not knowing what's happening with TiVo in the UK, has given me the opportunity to see exactly where TiVo have been thwarted down the line. Involving Sky in any of their UK business model has most certainly been the reason for their failure in the UK. TiVo probably had great intentions for the UK market. Could you imagine a SkyTiVo service? Wouldn't that be great?!

The very fact that most of you are using hacks and workarounds, using TiVoWeb and TurboNet cards etc. etc. just goes to show that you DO want all this increased functionality. I don't even know where to start with TiVoWeb/TurboNet and to be frank, I'm not sure I have the time or inclination. US customers have these features, just because they live in the US. That's not fair.



JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I simply don't have the time or inclination to get into installing boards, linux shells, running scripts etc...apart from the obvious handicap of potentially buggering the thing up, I don't have a PC on which to mount the drives to fiddle with them and all that. It's not how the PVR experience should be, for me!


I completely agree. I have upgraded my hard drives already. I considered adding a TurboNet card, and it's something that I've been putting off and putting off. But now that there will shortly be a requirement for a new HD capable PVR in my household, I don't really see any point in investing any time or money, going down the TiVoWeb road.



sanderton said:


> Having had five years plus of excellent service from my TiVos I don't feel any anger, a rather odd emotion under the circumstances IMHO


This is why I'm angry with TiVo: they HAVE neglected us. They have no interest in the UK market anymore. I am angry that they have never been honest with their UK customers about this. They do just want our £10 subscriptions. They don't actually have a lot to do to get back into the UK with a new box. They just need to find a manufacturer, and I can't believe that is that hard to do. They have already written the updated software. It's being used across America. They just need to tweak it for a PAL video system.

But you're right Sanderton, I'm more disappointed than anything. And that in turn is making me angry. 



iankb said:


> I don't think it is TiVo that is letting use down. It's the manufacturers


IMO, I disagree. I used to think that way too. But it is TiVo Inc that call the shots. If the business model isn't working for the UK market, then sell the TiVo software platform, allow it to be embedded in other devices. Hey, just sell the latest software, to run on a Linux box. I'd buy a £200 special from Dell (and add a few select peripherals such as decent video capture/graphics cards) to have a dedicated Linux box doing all this stuff!



Nebulous said:


> The Tivo interface is brilliant and I would hate to see it disappear.


I *completely agree*, and this is why I said in my original post that I am so sorry to be reaching this conclusion.



mrtickle said:


> Hi!


Hi MrT! Hey, where's the hat gone?!

{With regards to the money I have spent having a non-lifetime subscription}:


mrtickle said:


> That is probably the main reason you feel as you do.


Yep, I would definitely have to agree with you. This is the main reason. After a year or two of paying my monthly sub, I considered buying a lifetime subscription. But at that time, there was the possibility of a Series2 box on the horizon in the UK. So I held off, thinking "well, I don't want to throw away £200 on a lifetime, to be upgrading my box in a few months time". I vowed I would switch to a lifetime when the new Series2 boxes came. But of course they never did.



Wonderboy said:


> I think it's about time Tivo made a statement about exactly what their plans are for the UK...
> 
> ...They can't just go on like this, keeping everyone hanging on, it's been years now and it's just unprofessional the way they have handled the situation. And you're right it annoys people.


Hear, hear!



JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I might be looking at the new Mac mini and a Sky HD combo.


I was looking at precisely the same thing, as FrontRow is a rather nice solution. It could plug into the second digital port on the lovely Yamaha RX-V2600  I'm planning to buy in a couple of months time.

Not sure about the new on-board Intel graphics though (as opposed to a dedicated graphics card as previously), but will have to wait to really hear about how people are getting on with it. It might be just fine.

However, FrontRow isn't really a PVR. Good for downloaded programmes, good for photo libraries, good for my iTunes music library (although I have Roku M1000s dotted around the house for this). Sit it next to a Sky box, and, well, nothing much happens. 

This is my problem. I still need a PVR. I never though I'd say it, but it looks like I'll have to rely on Sky+ functionality in a new HD box.

Just as an aside, something else that cropped up in this thread...

{With regards to the radio channels changing}:


cwaring said:


> I assuming he's meaning the change to 4 digits, but that's a Sky problem not a Tivo problem...
> ...it is Sky that has caused the problem by changing their system for no real reason than they wanted to.


I don't agree, TiVo have to adapt to the various TV platforms, as and when they change. TiVo's problem IMO. Actually, to be honest, TiVo have washed their hands of that too, haven't they? Tribune's problem! I imagine it's TMS that are doing all of those channel changes, isn't it?


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

interesting you mention the intel integrated graphics...I thought it was also a bad move, until I discovered that the graphics chip is hard-wired to do HD, including 1080p, with little system performance hit. That's a smart move. Playing DV in Mac OS X right now is a mere sniff as it's native to the OS.


----------



## cwaring

wonderboy said:


> I think it's about time Tivo made a statement about exactly what their plans are for the UK.


I don't know much about running a business but I would have thought that that might be classed as "commercially sensetive information". ie you don't want to let potential competitors what you're up to.

Of course, they might be able to say some things and not other, or whatever. As I said, I don't know about this stuff


----------



## ndunlavey

<shrug> I still don't get it. My TiVo still does everything I bought it for 5 years ago, and I still can't see anything out there that does it as well that I'd jump ship to. Oh, and I'm unhacked, too, apart from a larger disk.

I was going to say that it's like my car - I bought a Golf 5 years ago, and it still works fine, so why would I care if VW do or don't bring out new models for other people to buy? But it's not even like that - for my car, I do want someone to keep supplying spares for my car, which I don't need for TiVo. And my TiVo was a muc smaller investment than the car - if the car breaks, I have to find a few grand to replace it, so need to plan when I'll do it. For TiVo, what's available to "jump" to only costs a couple of hundred, so I don't need to plan - if my TiVo breaks and I can't get a replacement, then is the time to fret about what to move to.


----------



## cyril

ndunlavey said:


> <shrug> I still don't get it. My TiVo still does everything I bought it for 5 years ago, and I still can't see anything out there that does it as well that I'd jump ship to. QUOTE]
> 
> For SD stuff I agree.
> 
> I guess people are never satisfied, even when something is really great like TiVo!
> 
> We are just a lot more demanding now then 5 years ago - especially when we see all the stuff that US TiVo users can get and the HD series 3 TiVo.


----------



## Automan

I imagine when Sky HD hits the streets (some shops are getting ready for dealer displays now) one or two of my three Tivo's will go.

As Sky will be fitting octal LNB's so customers can have up to four dual feed devices I will keep the Tivo on my main TV (along with Sky HD) and in the other rooms Sky+ boxes will do till I replace their TV's with HD TV's 1920x1024

Tivo's still work well but unless a new model arrives or we get hacked USA models nothing I see their market share going down in the UK 

Automan.


----------



## mtchamp

TiVo's CC coming up on March 8. Maybe we hear something. I've followed TiVo very closely since buying one in 2001 in the US. Many things are happening with this new CEO in charge and TiVos are now made in Asia. I think maybe this year, TiVo will get a box maker onboard or they have it made themselves and sold only online. Canada is right next door and still there is no official distribution in Canada or official support by TiVo, but TiVo has modified the SW so that you can buy one in the US and use it in Canada.

They might soon annouce the official launch of TiVo in Canada and the relaunch in the UK. I wouldn't give up on TiVo. After two years in court, they are going to trial with their first DVR patent infringement lawsuit against Echostar on the 27th. We should have a verdict by the end of April and it looks promising for TiVo from pre-trial court orders. Should TiVo win, deal making will be a whole lot easier since they have been in a tough spot with so many cable and satellite companies going with their own DVR's and cutting into their business.


----------



## Glen

What's CC?



What an interesting thread we have here! There are many different valid points! I have had my TiVo for nearly 3 or 4 years now and have never had any different problems with it! I was lucky enough to come accross a brand spanking new, never powered up, still sealed box, so i wacked a lifetime on it, and I've been happy with it ever since! But it isn't fair how we've been treated! TiVo inc should let us know what is happening instead of leaving us hanging! If and when my TiVo throws in the towel i'll do everything in my power to get it going again! I'll never forget my amazement when I first powered up my unit and saw TiVo guy swinging and sliding everywhere! Infact it still amazes me even now! I would love TiVo to come back to the UK and have a new box! For me it would need to support Sky though! We'll see though!


----------



## cyril

Automan said:


> I imagine when Sky HD hits the streets (some shops are getting ready for dealer displays now) one or two of my three Tivo's will go.
> 
> As Sky will be fitting octal LNB's so customers can have up to four dual feed devices I will keep the Tivo on my main TV (along with Sky HD) and in the other rooms Sky+ boxes will do till I replace their TV's with HD TV's 1920x1024
> 
> Tivo's still work well but unless a new model arrives or we get hacked USA models nothing I see their market share going down in the UK
> 
> Automan.


I'm guessing there will be still be a healthy market for UK TiVo series one for people with SD TiVos or on NTL or Freeview. I expect around 5 to 10% of the current TiVo UK owners to move to Sky HD or WMC or TVDrive this year.

I'm probably goint to end up using WMC with Xbox 360s, a Sky HD and 8 TiVos for my PVR needs by the end of the year, plus a Vista box if it arrives. Once HD becomes more mainstream I might even get a Reelbox if the software is good enough as its relatively cheaper than a WMC. So I am guessing my UK series one TiVos will start to hit ebay in 2012 after 12 years of faithful service.


----------



## sjp

grtrekkie said:


> What's CC?


Conference Call

see http://investor.tivo.com/calendar-detail.cfm?EventID=25264 for details on how to access.


----------



## bigblue

I would like to add the TVDrive to my system - HOWEVER Telewest have decided that if (as an existing long term customer with Broadband Internet, TV and Telephone) I want to swap out my existing box for a TV Drive - I have to pay a £50 installation fee! 

Anyone else (new customers, existing customers without Digital TV) can get it with free installation.

So guess what - THEY CAN KEEP IT! Hope someone from Telewest marketing dept is reading this post!

Regards
Pete


----------



## cwaring

You could go to Sky and pay £89 for the box, plus any repair costs after the first year, but then you'd only get 40 hours recording time (not 80*), two tuners and not three and still have to upgrade to their HD-ready system whenever it is launched.

*Sky do have an 80-hour model but I can't find a cost for that. I would guess around £200.

Suddenly, £50's not looking too bad, is it? 

Plus, of course, you could always try actually talking to them about it. For example, I believe that it you were to keep your existing box (fiver a month, IIRC) to use in another room, then installation is free.

By the way, when I had mine installed the other day, the guy just happened to mention that the boxes were - either retail or for insurance purposes, not sure which - worth £750.


----------



## Regor

My mum is in the process of jumping and she knows nothing about the TiVo technicalities of TiVo or even what sky + is !!

She has loved TiVo since she had it, but she is now awaiting delivery of a dvd recorder with built in hard disk as well as freeview tuner. For her, the prospect of having a smaller box under the TV as well as less boxes is important to her. And of course multi functionality appeals to her.

The TiVo box in terms of size and looks is very dated now.


----------



## bigblue

cwaring said:


> Suddenly, £50's not looking too bad, is it?


I think you are missing the point of my post - installation is FREE for new customers but for existing loyal customers - its £50 I feel they don't really care too much for my custom 

I have spoken to them - answer - "installation is £50" !

So they can keep it - happy with my Tivo but would like TV drive - oh and BTW don't forget they charge you £10 (minimum) per month for ""rental" for the box !

You can keep the other box (at £5.50 per month minimum 12 months), but I don't want it !

Regards
Pete


----------



## TIVO_YORK99

I've had my Tivo since the second week of October 2000 with a lifetime subscription.

Its been great, never had any problems with it, and have even managed to get three other family members Tivo's and they are all very happy with it. 

However, I now have a child and a wife who wanted to give up work to look after said child so I had to cut my costs a bit. I've therefore completely cancelled Sky and had decided to buy a freeview PVR.

From reading Sanderton's posts on here about MCE, I thought I'd give it a try again. (I did try it about a year ago and it was crap!, used to crash all the time. Fortunately I had just used the MSDN trial version as I subscribe to MSDN).

I had already bought a £300 PC from Dell outlet that was supposed to have XP SP2, but very fortunately came with MCE on it instead. I bought two Haupaggue Nova T tuners and also two XBOX 360 core's to use as extenders. 

It rocks!!, I've had it now for two weeks, it hasn't crashed once and it hasn't missed any programs. I use the web interface for it which is at least as good as Tivoweb (thanks for the link Stuart!).

I can record two programs at once, or watch two different programs in different rooms (I'm gutted that the Dell only has two PCI slots and therefore I can't have four tuners!!) Admittedly, this setup is only perfect when you no longer want to use Sky, but to be honest all I ever watch these days are on Freeview anyway and now Film Four is on the way it makes it even better.

So, my initial costs of Tivo were:

£399 for the box
£200 lifetime subscription (boy, I'm glad I bought that in Oct 2000, saved a fortune!)
£40 for a Powermid remote extender

and the media center is :

£300 for the PC
£199 x 2 for the XBOX 360's

Therefore its only cost me £60 extra for the Media Center, and I can even watch it in my garage! (though I must admit I will probably get at least £200 back when I sell the Tivo on ebay).

I agree with Stuart, I don't feel any anger towards Tivo. I actually think I am incredibly lucky that they released Tivo series 1 in the UK. Its a shame the series 2 or 3 has never come out, but I'm not that bothered. I remember first reading about it in April 2000 and not believing that it could be half as good as it sounded, but it turned out to be 50x better than I thought!

If anyone from Tivo ever reads this forum who was involved from the start, thanks for a truely ahead of its time fantastic device that has served me well over the last 5 years!

Pete


----------



## dialanothernumb

TIVO_YORK99 said:


> I agree with Stuart, I don't feel any anger towards Tivo. I actually think I am incredibly lucky that they released Tivo series 1 in the UK. Its a shame the series 2 or 3 has never come out, but I'm not that bothered. I remember first reading about it in April 2000 and not believing that it could be half as good as it sounded, but it turned out to be 50x better than I thought!
> 
> If anyone from Tivo ever reads this forum who was involved from the start, thanks for a truely ahead of its time fantastic device that has served me well over the last 5 years!
> 
> Pete


Pretty much the same story and sentiment here. Stuart's incessant promotion of MCE ;-) and my need to see decent picture quality caused me to move on from TiVo, but I am thankful that I discovered Tivo all that time ago (perhaps I would limit my gratitude because it wasn't TiVo who brought their device to my attention, to be frank!) But I can appreciate the frustration of the orgininal post if MCE is not meeting your needs for a better PVR than TiVo


----------



## sanderton

TIVO_YORK99 said:


> However, I now have a child and a wife who wanted to give up work to look after said child so I had to cut my costs a bit. I've therefore completely cancelled Sky and had decided to buy a freeview PVR.
> 
> ...
> 
> . I bought two Haupaggue Nova T tuners and also two XBOX 360 core's to use as extenders.


Er, you could have just spend £40 an a Freeview box to go with the TiVo! You wife doesn't read this forum I hope.


----------



## alanjrobertson

I must admit that I've also gradually drifted away from my TiVo. When I first bought it (in 2002) I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread  and have certainly had good use out of it. Thankfully I went for the £200 lifetime sub at the time!

Since then I've upgraded the HDD and added a TurboNet card - both excellent additions, and I found the ability to use TivoWeb and copy across programmes very useful indeed (then used VirtualDub to re-encode to DivX for playback on my Palm when travelling ).

However over the past year I've found that I've tended to use my DTT DVR more and more. I orginally had a DigiFusion but after a couple of replacements I found it still kept crashing and therefore switched to a Humax 9200-T. It's twin tuner and has a USB port for copying files across to the PC. I certainly do miss the Season Pass and Wishlist functionality of my TiVo, but this extra hassle is outweighed by the reliability and utility of having built-in twin DTT tuners. Over the past month my TiVo seems to have given up the ghost network-wise (my entire /var directory vanished and reinstalling TivoWeb only seemed to work temporarily) so I unplugged it. I haven't had the time yet to plug it back in and sort things out, but to be honest it's not been any massive loss.

If TiVo released a UK version of the series 2 with built-in twin tuners, web scheduling, network access of files, etc. then they'd have me back in a heartbeat but until then I'll probably stick with my DTT DVR. It's a shame they haven't done this as in a number of DVR reviews I've read they still point out that the best overall software has always been TiVo, but the hardware just seems to be falling behind (in the UK at least).

Also - for £45 I bought a Freecom DVB-T USB stick and am able to record any programmes straight onto the PC that I know I want to take away with me when travelling.

Will await the conference call on the 8th with interest to see if the UK even gets a mention - fingers-crossed for something positive!


----------



## JNLister

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I have to think about it a little too much i suppose..."oh, I want to see that, I will have to cancel the record on more4, set one up on more4+1" - then the next week I want to go back to seeing it at 9pm when the other show isn't on, as I want to see it as soon as possible, 'cos I'm like that. It's all a bit academic anyhow, as I will need to get Sky HD to watch the stuff I'm going to be making. It's very exciting to be doing 5.1 for Broadcast in the UK.


Why not just set up two season passes, one for More 4, one for More 4 +1. It only takes about five seconds, and you're covered:

If there's no clash, it will record the More 4 showing and not bother with the More 4 +1 showing.

If there's a clash at 9pm, you'll be asked if you want to cancel the More 4 showing in favour of 'the other show'. The More 4+1 showing will then record instead.

There's no need for maintenance or rearranging. That's the beauty of Tivo working so well with +1 channels and numerous repeats.

For me, the absence of twin tuners is virtually irrelevant. If two shows clash, I'll get one on a repeat or on a +1 showing. If that doesn't solve it, I can usually catch one show live on Freeview. And if that doesn't solve it, I can usually get one of the shows in a way that, erm, is not torrentially difficult.


----------



## cwaring

JNLister said:


> Why not just set up two season passes, one for More 4, one for More 4 +1. It only takes about five seconds, and you're covered:
> 
> If there's no clash, it will record the More 4 showing and not bother with the More 4 +1 showing.
> 
> If there's a clash at 9pm, you'll be asked if you want to cancel the More 4 showing in favour of 'the other show'. The More 4+1 showing will then record instead.


You would think that, wouldn't you. It would be logical. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=281156


----------



## sanderton

It does work exactly like that.


----------



## cwaring

Not in my experience, as demonstrated in that thread


----------



## dogsbody

It works great like that


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

JNLister said:


> Why not just set up two season passes, one for More 4, one for More 4 +1. It only takes about five seconds, and you're covered:
> 
> For me, the absence of twin tuners is virtually irrelevant. If two shows clash, I'll get one on a repeat or on a +1 showing. If that doesn't solve it, I can usually catch one show live on Freeview. And if that doesn't solve it, I can usually get one of the shows in a way that, erm, is not torrentially difficult.


I'm lazy, and in my view I shouldn't have to think that hard about it :-D - and my freeview is rubbish, I can only see the BBC mux.


----------



## cwaring

dogsbody said:


> It works great like that


So why should it work for other people but not me?


----------



## sanderton

Depends on whether the programme you are trying to record is repeated on the main channel. If it is, the second showing on the main channel wil be recorded rather than the +1. Of course in most cases there isn't a repeat on the main channel, so it works as described here.


----------



## iankb

I usually place the +1 SP above the normal SP, because it tends to record out of prime-time, where there is less contention.


----------



## Pessable

I've been disappointed that TiVo seems to be a cul-de-sac in the UK, and SkyHD will tempt me, despite my hatred of all things Murdoch. I currently use a Sky box without subscription with my TiVo, although I've thought of moving to Freeview to get More4. But I resent the idea of having to pay an ongoing subscription to keep the recording facility, so I'm still resisting Sky so far.

The other issue for me is that I'm a bit hard-of-hearing. Right now I have to record to TiVo via the Sky box with subtitles on for everything, and my kids hate watching their episodes of say Blue Peter with subtitles (which of course are set way from the edge of the screen so that people who can't set up their aspect ration correctly can still see them). I understand that with Sky+ (and expected with SkyHD) that you can choose whether to have subtitles on or off at playback, so I can watch Prison Break with them on without disrupting the kids enjoyment of their programmes.

I also tried a friend's MCE recently, and was impressed to see that with an analogue terrestrial card it also recorded the subtitles off screen so you could choose whether to have them on or off at playback time. I might investigate MCE with a DTT card at some point.

I was also hopeful that with the new ITV/BBC Freesat service supposedly coming this year, and with the Beeb's stated intention to support HD, that maybe Freesat could get together with TiVo to create a HD TiVo Satellite box. I'm sure that would sell.

I'm not going to wait for that fantasy to materialise before jumping though, so I might have to go SkyHD and MCE/Freeview.


----------



## programx

I've jumped ship too.

Don't get me wrong, I love TiVo, but they are taking us for a ride. They're not doing well in the US, either, and are having to use marketing ploys to get people on board. I love the clever stuff in TiVO, and miss it in my current "solution". But as far as I see it, we're pretty much screwed.

There is nothing out there that does what we need. An intelligent scheduler with maybe MP3/DVD support that is a consumer device.

So I've had to ditch TiVo and go with Windows Media Centre and Media Portal (http://www.team-mediaportal.com). Both are very good products, the latter being free and packed with features. But neither really fill my needs.

TiVo is currently on 3 month trial with my parents. If they don't like it, then it's being retired into the great gadget coffin (aka the spare room which is full of dead gadgets)


----------



## PhilG

This discussion is getting very bizarre

A number of people seem to be saying "Tivo is not as good as it can be, so I am giving up and moving to something else that is not as good as Tivo".... ??????

OK, I accept what some people are saying about the £10/month, but I regard that as purely a fee for providing the TV listing information (to hell with any customer service, upgrades, new features or whatever). Let's face it, £10/month is only 36p/day - less than a daily paper. True, the listings are not 100% correct, but neither are anyone elses (and even if they were, we'd still need the broadcasters to be 100% accurate too - how likely is that?)

My Tivo is pure and simply a timeshifting VCR with more brains. I don't let it decide what to record, but I do make good use of season passes and wishlists. TV is PART of my life, not my whole life, so I am not in the slightest bit interested (yet) in HD. I don't veen mind about the fuzzy quality of all my lowest quality recordings - means I can be behind a LONG way and still not miss anything I want recording.

Am I in the minority or majority I wonder?

I know that Tivo could be better, but now I have upped the capacity, added a cachecard and RAM, loaded all sorts of bonus scripts (endpad, dailymail, spaceused, and a number of Tivoweb add-ons) I can't honestly imagine anything that would come close. (My wife was dead impressed that we could sit in a hotel in the US and add things to Tivos ToDo list at home during the Winter Olympics).

So, it'd be fair to say, Yes - I am satisfied and can see no reason to jump (and what would I jump to anyway???)


----------



## ndunlavey

> they are taking us for a ride. ...
> miss it in my current "solution".
> ...we're pretty much screwed.


Boggle.


----------



## cwaring

sanderton said:


> Depends on whether the programme you are trying to record is repeated on the main channel. If it is, the second showing on the main channel wil be recorded rather than the +1. Of course in most cases there isn't a repeat on the main channel, so it works as described here.


Ahhh! Okay. Get it now. Thanks.


----------



## eric23

I think when programx said "we're pretty much screwed", he meant that there aren't really any decent alternative options out there. (But correct me if I'm wrong, programx!)

£10 per month used to pay for listings and software upgrades. Now it's just about programme listings. I have an issue with paying £10 per month for listings, regardless of whether it's TiVo or Sky+ (but especially Sky+ since the listings are already there for non-Sky+ subscribers!). I used to think I was getting value for money when the software was being updated frequently. But it's clear the software isn't going to be updated anymore. Series 1 has nowhere to go.

It's true, I should have paid for the lifetime subscription when I bought the box, but that plus the cost of the box was too much in one lump sum at the time. But I've already explained why I didn't move over to a lifetime a few years back, and I certainly wouldn't do so now.

I will agree with the comment about having had value for money (on the price of the box). My TiVo box has served me very well through the years.

The particular issue that is forcing my hand now is the introduction of HD. But in addition to that, I also feel that the TiVo service isn't going anywhere in the UK. We are stuck with what we had 4 years ago. When new technology comes along, I'm one of those who wants to take advantage of it. I'm sure most of you out there feel the same way about new technology. That's why you own a PVR! But a Series1 TiVo is now past its prime IMO.

I can see that the majority of those of you who don't agree with this viewpoint are running TiVoWeb and all the various hacks. I probably should be. But I know that it isn't anywhere near as slick or seemless as the real thing, on Series 2 boxes. Series 2 is what we should have had a long time ago. All the TCO and TiVoToGo stuff makes me very jealous of what I can't have!

I can understand why there are so many people who are defensive of TiVo. But I want to move on. Come on, let's be honest, we've all been hoping TiVo will move on in the UK for the last four years! That's why I'm saying: is it such a sin to be questioning whether TiVo is any good anymore?!

IMO, HD is going to be the death of TiVo in the UK - for those of us who are paying £10 per month, anyway. As more and more people buy "HD Ready" screens, as more and more of us are forced down the SkyHD route to experience any kind of HD content in the UK, we will be forced to abandon the TiVo service. That is, unless you're happy to pay £41 minimum to Sky and a TiVo subscription on top of that, for something that would only be able to handle SD! HD customers will want their PVRs to be able to record HD programming.

If TiVo announce that Series 3 is going to be launched worldwide (including the UK), then of course I would definitely want to stick with TiVo. The software is better than Sky+. But Sky+ is definitely catching up! Don't know whether you read on DigitalSpy that Sky is planning on launching a TCO type service soon? Maybe that will be enough of a sweetener for me to feel happy about moving over to a Sky+ based solution.


----------



## alanjrobertson

Pessable said:


> The other issue for me is that I'm a bit hard-of-hearing. Right now I have to record to TiVo via the Sky box with subtitles on for everything, and my kids hate watching their episodes of say Blue Peter with subtitles (which of course are set way from the edge of the screen so that people who can't set up their aspect ration correctly can still see them). I understand that with Sky+ (and expected with SkyHD) that you can choose whether to have subtitles on or off at playback, so I can watch Prison Break with them on without disrupting the kids enjoyment of their programmes.
> 
> I also tried a friend's MCE recently, and was impressed to see that with an analogue terrestrial card it also recorded the subtitles off screen so you could choose whether to have them on or off at playback time. I might investigate MCE with a DTT card at some point.


 I'm not sure if it's of any use to you or not, but the Humax 9200T records the subtitle part of the DVB-T transport stream so that on playback you can switch subtitles on or off when playing back. Just for info.


----------



## katman

eric23 said:


> HD customers will want their PVRs to be able to record HD programming.


I saw the SKY HD box at the Smarthome show at the NEC this weekend and it is a PVR so anyone taking the SKY HD route will have an HD capable PVR


----------



## mikerr

Sky have already been beaten to HD broadcasting by telewest.

Next week I will have a HD PVR for just an extra £5/month, and (a small amount) of HD content is already being broadcast


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

mikerr said:


> Sky have already been beaten to HD broadcasting by telewest.
> 
> Next week I will have a HD PVR for just an extra £5/month, and (a small amount) of HD content is already being broadcast


being first is not the same as being the best. Teleworst have no ability to make decent HD content. Do they reckon they'll be carrying Sky One HD, Sky Sports HD etc.? How's the 5.1 content on their stuff?


----------



## Nebulous

This thread is getting more and more fascinating. When looking back to the past, it seems almost everyone is of the same opinion, they love their Tivo and have only nice things to say about it, but when looking to the future, opinion is very much divided in two.
Some are saying that they a perfectly happy with their Tivo as it is today. I wonder though, how many of them are saying that with the benefit of a modified unit. Would there opinions have been the same if the Tivo had been totally un-hackable. Remember, it would have a puny hard disk, no cache, no web interface, no endpad, no variable bit rate, no unmentionable things etc etc. All of this "added value" has only been possible because of the hard work and dedication of enthusiasts and hobbyists. Tivo have not contributed to any of these things (as far as I know) except perhaps for the fact that they have not come down on us all like a ton of bricks for talking about all this hacking. 

Then there are those who want to have the latest technology and find that their faithful old Tivo just doesn't cut it anymore. There are some things that cannot be achieved by hacking, such as recording more than one programme at a time, HD compatibility and recording digital transmissions directly to hard disk avoiding the analogue stage (although I believe there is an SDI mod available for this if you can afford it). We all hear things about the latest series 2 and 3 units and feel left out because we can't have them. HD is coming at us at the speed of a striking snail, but over time, more and more will be signing up for it.

Tivo's slogan went something like:
"Tivo will change the way you watch TV forever"

Certainly in my case this is absolutely true.

But for those wanting to embrace new technologies, then they are going to have to give up this much loved Tivo experience and have to make do with whatever else is out there. Some reading this will say there are other pvr's out there that are as good, but the consensus seems to be that Tivo still have the edge on reliability and ease of use.

Perhaps this is more likely the source of anger and frustration, the fact that it may be necessary to give up a superior product to keep up with the times.

Every dog has its day. Maybe your Tivo doesn't bring you your pipe and slippers anymore


----------



## mike0151

Maybe, just maybe, for the majority of us, TiVo will continue to provide what we want and need. I record at basic, not because I want to but on behalf of a friend but I am quite used to that quality now. I have hacked my units to give me extra functionality and I "worship" the guys who have provided those hacks. Most of my recordings happen as I want them, sometimes I have to tweak them. For example at the moment, my SKY box can't receive signal from Five. No matter, I just adjust the other TiVo to do the recordings. Not quite as simple as it should be but I haven't found time to sort out why this is happening.

After more than 5 years of TiVo I cannot imagine moving to another platform. I don't give a flying f**k about HD tv. For the next 3 or 5 years it is just a waste of money IMHO. I think that Cyril's attitude [*] matches mine and most of the jumpers simply want the latest because it is the latest.

If HD happened to be provided, fully qualified, fully tested, fully available, fully working, fully recordable.... then it might be workable. So far we don't even know definitively what format it will use.

What is the point in chasing the latest until there is a real standard?

[*] hope I am not misquoting him


----------



## mike0151

As an add on, how the hell can TiVo move back until they have a real knowledge of the playing field?


----------



## alanjrobertson

To an extent I agree re. HD - I'm looking forward to seeing what it looks like (esp. things like the BBC's new Planet Earth series) but it's going to be a few years before there's plenty of content.

However the one thing I certainly couldn't do without now is twin-tuner recording - it's the lack of built in twin-tuner DTT that's made me use my TiVo less and less. I much prefer two slippers brought at once rather than one at a time a couple of days apart, dependent on repeats (or is that an analogy too far )

Alan


----------



## eric23

But are you saying that you wouldn't _want_ TiVoToGo, dual tuners, TiVo Central Online, networked boxes and all the other lovely features US customers have, if they were available to us? Forgetting the HD issue, these are just as worthy in my mind of wanting to search for an alternative that DOES have these features. TiVo isn't going to provide them to us in the UK.

The requirement for a HD PVR just puts the final nail in the coffin for me.



mike0151 said:


> We don't even know definitively what format it {HD} will use.





mike0151 said:


> how the hell can TiVo move back until they have a real knowledge of the playing field


Sorry Mike, I didn't understand what you meant by either of these points? (HD will use both 720p and 1080i standards for some time to come... ??) (And I wasn't sure what you meant about TiVo not having knowledge of the playing field)


----------



## mrtickle

katman said:


> I saw the SKY HD box at the Smarthome show at the NEC this weekend and it is a PVR so anyone taking the SKY HD route will have an HD capable PVR


Well, you'll have a sort of Sky+ functionality slugged unless you pay a neverending £10/month fee or upgrade to an expensive pay-TV package; without wishlists, Season Pass Manager, suggestions, ability to extract recordings, etc etc. I know that Sky love calling it a PVR but I certainly don't.

Picture quality is not the be all and end all; the Sky+ software is seriously behind what I expect these days. I would feel restricted and frustrated by it even if it was free.


----------



## cwaring

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> being first is not the same as being the best.


Riiiiight. Of course, you'd say the same thing if Sky had been first, wouldn't you? 



> Teleworst


That says it all to me. You don't like TW. I think I'll start calling them TeleBEST 



> Do they reckon they'll be carrying Sky One HD, Sky Sports HD etc.?


 They will, assuming Sky allow them to 



> How's the 5.1 content on their stuff?


Well, the new TV Drive is also 5.1-enabled. Don't have a 5.1 system so couldn't tell you if it's any good though


----------



## sanderton

Obviously if you currently have your TiVo set to Basic then you won't be in the market for HD. But many of us are. TiVo picture quality was a necessary compromise for its functionality; when that compromise is no longer required or acceptable then that position changes.

There is plenty of HD content. All American prime time series, all major sporting events, all films. And within a year or two all BBC programming. I reckon well over half of what I watch will be in HD pretty much from day one.


----------



## iankb

sanderton said:


> There is plenty of HD content. All American prime time series, all major sporting events, all films. And within a year or two all BBC programming. I reckon well over half of what I watch will be in HD pretty much from day one.


Is that broadcast HD, or HD content on file sharing and streaming services?


----------



## childe

I've will confess I have recently begun to wonder how long Tivo will continue to serve my needs. It remains the best gadget I have ever bought, by a long way. However, I know that I will eventually want to migrate to HD. At that point Tivo will have to go. The only question for me is, when? My expectation (which is always subject to change) is in 2-3 years by when my investment in my current Sony 36" CRT TV will have paid for istself and I will feel justified buying a larger HD flat screen. By then I am hoping a 42" HD LCD will be around £500.

So for me, the real key driver is the price of 42" HD LCDs. Once they are affordable, and I feel I have had enough use from my current Sony, I will probably jump ship. Until then I will definitely stick with Tivo. Someone suggested Tivo might be past its best, but the same could have been said of Mohammad Ali when he won his 3rd world championship. He was still the best compared to everyone else. For me there is no viable alternative to jump to. I value the Tivo exclusive features too highly, and with the number of repeat showings available, the singe tuner is not too big an issue.


----------



## iankb

Because of the importance in maintaining flexible and persistent season passes, Windows MCE is the only real alternative to TiVo at the moment and, unless I've missed something, not one that is currently supporting broadcast HD content.

Of course, the problem with Windows MCE is that the hardware platform wasn't designed for low-cost media centres, and is still relatively expensive when compared to a TiVo. Now if somebody were to bring out a low-cost hardware platform with a dedicated software system that was designed for the job, they could call it ...



... a TiVo.


----------



## eric23

So who in the UK hacker community is going to take up the challenge of taking a US Series 2 software image, converting it to PAL, making it fully compatible with HD, capable of recording two inputs at the same time, make it work with the XMLTV open source project instead of having to use a subscription for listings, create a great web portal for scheduling recordings, and work on TiVoToGo functionality for those of us with portable devices?!  

Oh hang on, I think I might have broken just about every rule in the book about forbidden topics of conversation! LOL


----------



## sanderton

Broadcast, can't be arsed with filesharing as a rule.

looking at my last few days viewing I've watched several hours of live rugby (HD on Sky Sports), the Planet Earth thingy (HD on the BBC), and a couple of episodes of Bones and Cold Case (HD on Sky One). Only a Top Gear compilation and Casualty for the Mrs would have been in SD - and as the BBC will shortly be all HD I won't have to wait very long for them!


----------



## AMc

Rejoining the thread for a moment....
I really feel that broadcast TV is only going to be a necessity for a couple more years.
Fast broadband is likely to make Video on Demand a more viable option than multichannel broadcast TV unless you're a continous channel surfer.
The need by the content producers to address the audiences being leeched by illegal file sharing are likely to force them into licencing their content.

At the moment I have an SD source (Telewest) and SD recorder (Tivo) and an SD display (32" CRT).

My Tivo is essentially a clunky video on demand machine - clunky in that it has to download its programmes in realtime at scheduled intervals not in the way it works. I use it as VOD and watch when I want and what I want. If I were able to access the same programmes from a central server for a modest per view cost then I would do that and move the storage to 'managed hosting' at Telewest (or whereever).

Admittedly archiving is a weak point but as it stands I buy what little content I want to keep (West Wing, movies) on legit DVD and I expect I will do that with Blueray or HD DVD in future.

For now Tivo is the best option for me and its paid for. My next step may be a completely different way of accessing TV content. Who knows perhaps Tivo are secretly developing the VOD to beat all VOD (hollow laugh).


----------



## iankb

sanderton said:


> Broadcast, can't be arsed with filesharing as a rule.


I'm a bit out of touch, Stuart.

I still thought that it was restricted to not much more than a movie channel, and a football channel. 

Does this mean that you're moving away from Windows MCE towards SkyHD+ ?


----------



## iankb

AMc said:


> Fast broadband is likely to make Video on Demand a more viable option than multichannel broadcast TV unless you're a continous channel surfer.


I'm not convinced of that in the near future.

We are still severely restricted by slow ADSL upload speeds, and services like SkyByBroadband are relying on file-sharing systems. Because of the speed differentials, only a small proportion of people supplying content will be able to view it at high-speeds.

e.g. If 100 people leave their PC's switched on to supply content, they could only supply 50 people who want to watch their content at a maximum of 512Kbps. Given that you'll be lucky if enough of them have a requested programme on disk, then you're probably talking a lot less. It works for a very popular programme, but not for a broad spectrum of viewing.

Also, people like myself who rely on remote access via GoToMyPC, etc, need the maximum upload capacity, and couldn't act as content suppliers. Also, a lot of people wouldn't ever want to act as content suppliers, for security and local performance reasons.

To me, VOD should be provided by satellite or cable, whereby you put in requests for programmes, and they are broadcast and buffered to your disk in the background, during fixed broadcast slots which are shared by thousands of users. Just like the way your digibox is upgraded. Popular programmes would be repeated more often. The only way that could work via the internet, is if programmes were transmitted by shared multicast; something I doubt that current internet switches could handle, and definitely not something that could be fed by millions of file sharers.


----------



## ndunlavey

> Fast broadband is likely to make Video on Demand a more viable option


Fat enough pipes for that must be a long way off yet, I think.
My sums:
1 film, compressed reasonably but still at broadcast quality = about 2GB = 16Gb = 16,000Mb
average film length is about 90 mins = 5400 seconds
dedicated bandwidth = (16000/5400) = about 3Mbps sustained for 90 minutes

At today's 50:1 domestic contention ratios, that's a 150Mbps service.


----------



## ndunlavey

Although, looking at it another way ....

If you need 3 Mbps guaranteed for 90 mins, and you have 20:1 contention, and only half of your contention group are streaming at a time, that's only a 30Mbps connection. We're not too far off that now for people very close to exchanges.


----------



## dialanothernumb

Pessable said:


> I also tried a friend's MCE recently, and was impressed to see that with an analogue terrestrial card it also recorded the subtitles off screen so you could choose whether to have them on or off at playback time. I might investigate MCE with a DTT card at some point.


Just be aware that (if it is important to you) MCE does not do MHEG, so no DTT subtitles... and no earliy resolution of that.
Of course the upside is no red button


----------



## sanderton

iankb said:


> I'm a bit out of touch, Stuart.
> 
> I still thought that it was restricted to not much more than a movie channel, and a football channel.
> 
> Does this mean that you're moving away from Windows MCE towards SkyHD+ ?


To date they have announced Sky One, Sky Sports HD, two movie channels, Artsworld, National Geographic and Discovery HD. And there will be the BBC service showing simulcasts of "major events" and repeats of HD stuff like Planet Earth and Rome.

MCE is still the main system for the house; I don't currently have any HD capable TVs, and I only anticipate buying one in the short term. I'll live with Sky+'s series links for HD stuff, but for the most part MCE's proper TiVo style recordings will be essential for most BBC stuff, C4, More4 etc.

And with Vista, Sky might just start offering proper satellite tuners for PCs alwing everything to route through MCE - their sister company in the States has already announced that they will do that.


----------



## sanderton

iankb said:


> I'm not convinced of that in the near future.
> 
> We are still severely restricted by slow ADSL upload speeds, and services like SkyByBroadband are relying on file-sharing systems. Because of the speed differentials, only a small proportion of people supplying content will be able to view it at high-speeds.


SkyByBroadband's peer to peer is a downloading service, not a streaming VoD service. If you watch the Sky content streamed it comes straight from their servers, old style.


----------



## khadland

mike0151 said:


> After more than 5 years of TiVo I cannot imagine moving to another platform. I don't give a flying f**k about HD tv. For the next 3 or 5 years it is just a waste of money IMHO. I think that Cyril's attitude [*] matches mine and most of the jumpers simply want the latest because it is the latest.


Amen - my parents and SO's parents both have Tivo, hacked with endpad & bigger disks by me. Apart from that it's just a box that takes care of timeshifting so they don;t miss their favourite telly. All of the continual woes and gripes spouted ad nauseam on this forum (such as minor scheduling slips, picture quality, channel lineups, lack of MP3 or whatever whizzbang) just pass them by without making a ripple. They might think about HD when their current TV blows up, and might think about changing Tivo if the box eventually dies or they lose the listings. Both are lifetime subbed - it's a done deal and they are more than happy with it.

So how many UK Tivo users are like them, and how many are like the self-selecting technophiles that read and contribute to this forum? Remember that the doomsayers here are people that are interested enough in PVR technology to have found this forum, to have read it in the last few days, to have read a thread entitled 'who's ready to jump' and to have researched and experimented with the other options out there.

As an analogy consider the misery that would be spread among the 'twatted up car' internet community if the main UK exhaust supplier stopped importing the latest and loudest exhausts so large that a family of squirrels could live in them - then consider how much that would bother you or I who have a standard exhaust on our standard cars and don't see the need for more noise or pops and bangs.

Just my .02


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

cwaring said:


> Riiiiight. Of course, you'd say the same thing if Sky had been first, wouldn't you?
> 
> That says it all to me. You don't like TW. I think I'll start calling them TeleBEST


I had Telewest once. That should say it all. HORRIBLE company, awful UI on the box, rubbish picture quality. I wonder, where shall they be taking the feed from for the HD channels? it wont be out of the back of Sky's playout system, so i'm thinking that they'll be re-compressing....


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

khadland said:


> As an analogy consider the misery that would be spread among the 'twatted up car' internet community if the main UK exhaust supplier stopped importing the latest and loudest exhausts so large that a family of squirrels could live in them - then consider how much that would bother you or I who have a standard exhaust on our standard cars and don't see the need for more noise or pops and bangs.
> 
> Just my .02


hmm. I drive a standard 1.2 honda Jazz...I don't see what that has to do with desiring better quality television. All the shows I watch (quality US television, in the main) is made in High Def with 5.1 audio - why the hell shouldn't I want to see that?


----------



## thechachman

Will readily admit I'm very interested in what SkyHD will bring in the coming years, but I've also picked up two LT subbed boxes this week off another forums site. 

Given the plasma and upstairs LCD are SD screens, not overly concerned about HD for another 24-36 months if not longer and mode0 / 720x576 with a high bitrate allows the Tivo to view and stores artifact and flash free for us. Having all three networked and cooperating with conflicts and such is a dream really.

Have a feeling the scramble to DTT and such may slow widescale HD takeup. Are there even any HD screens with inbuilt FV tuners available ?


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

thechachman said:


> Given the plasma and upstairs LCD are SD screens, not overly concerned about HD for another 24-36 months if not longer


I will just point out, for the sake of it, that HD material looks much better than SD material even when scaled down. Observe how much better most of the football on MOTD looks this season, HD sourced as it is, in the main.


----------



## cwaring

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I had Telewest once. That should say it all.


No, simply says that _you_ weren't happy.



> HORRIBLE company


They've been fine with me.


> awful UI on the box


I haave Tivo so never used it 



> rubbish picture quality


Again, personal opinion. I think it's fine but then I do wear glasses 

Anyway, it's all subjective and also OT for this thread, so we'd better leave it there.


----------



## thechachman

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I will just point out, for the sake of it, that HD material looks much better than SD material even when scaled down. Observe how much better most of the football on MOTD looks this season, HD sourced as it is, in the main.


 It does indeed, but shelling out a wedge for an HD panel and a new HD box for the sake of 7 or 8 channels makes no sense to me (or many others I suspect) in the near future.

As long as most of us have SD displays and the majority of content is broadcast in SD I see no reason for us to question the value or usefulness of our Tivos ...


----------



## mikerr

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> I had Telewest once. That should say it all. HORRIBLE company, awful UI on the box,...


Funny you should mention the telewest UI, as with a tivo its something you NEVER use.

My tivo has been from Telewest to NTL, to sky, then sky+ (!)
then freeview and now back to telewest.

Since tivo is the "front end", the interface didn't change at all when I changed
providers - no annoyances with different UIs.

I personally find that great


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

thechachman said:


> It does indeed, but shelling out a wedge for an HD panel and a new HD box for the sake of 7 or 8 channels makes no sense to me (or many others I suspect) in the near future.
> 
> As long as most of us have SD displays and the majority of content is broadcast in SD I see no reason for us to question the value or usefulness of our Tivos ...


well, that's where we differ...most of my viewing is made in HD. I am also very attracted to the SMS scheduling that Sky HD is to offer...the same service that TiVo in the US has just announced.


----------



## thechachman

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> well, that's where we differ...most of my viewing is made in HD. I am also very attracted to the SMS scheduling that Sky HD is to offer...the same service that TiVo in the US has just announced.


 Unless you've got a Euro1080 DVB satbox I can't see how most of your viewing is HD already.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

thechachman said:


> Unless you've got a Euro1080 DVB satbox I can't see how most of your viewing is HD already.


you misunderstand me. Most of my viewing is MADE in HD, i just can't see it until Sky launches. Sopranos, West Wing, 24, that kinda thing.


----------



## iankb

My order of choice is ...

HD TiVo
TiVo
SkyHD+
I don't see any reason for losing TiVo functionality, when i) HD is not being broadcast in quantity, and ii) it ties you into Sky's premium channels.

Also, it will be much harder to change from Sky (and its potentially-increasing subs), once you are tied into HD.

When Sky One goes HD, will Sky Two, etc, also go HD? Otherwise, it will be much harder to choose repeat episodes to handle clashes, etc.

Personally, I will probably wait until HD becomes mainstream, the future of non-Sky HD is more defined, prices have dropped for HD TV's, large-screen TV's have proper scalers built into them, and platform-independent hardware for HD recording exists. But then I hate football.


----------



## thechachman

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> you misunderstand me. Most of my viewing is MADE in HD, i just can't see it until Sky launches. Sopranos, West Wing, 24, that kinda thing.


 Ah ... of course a lot of it is originally shot in HD these days, but wasn't aware Sky has yet agreed & signed contracts to be allowed access to the HD versions of all the shows as of yet.

Last time I rang in to ask they kept going on about football and BBC and UK content, but refused to state if/when they would be allowed to transmit all their "big US shows" currently on SkyOne in HD format on the new platform.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

my sources say that 24 is a definite, as well as Rescue Me. A lot of my viewing will need channel 4 to start looking at it, which it is.


----------



## AMc

RE the broadband comments about contention.
Telewest Teleport is already offering VOD and all their Pay Per View content over their networks.

Homechoice has also been offering acceptable VOD over ADSL for years within the M25 at least.

BT are also entering the market with their combined Freeview DSL box.

I appreciate that not every viewer in every dwelling in the UK will have the necessary connectivity to access HD content over broadband on demand but that doesn't mean it won't become much more prevalent. Once you start talking about non real time downloading of scheduled content to a protected STB then it gets even more attractive.


----------



## thechachman

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> my sources say that 24 is a definite, as well as Rescue Me. A lot of my viewing will need channel 4 to start looking at it, which it is.


 Ok, personally know few details but something I read alleged that SkyOne HD will simply be an upscaled simulcast of the current channel and not "switching from upscaled simulcast to distinct HD programme" for a single available in native HD show and then "switching back from distinct HD programme to upscaled simulcast of existing channel" for the 90-odd% of programming which is native SD.

I guess only time will tell.


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

i can tell you that there certainly is some distinct, home-grown HD programming that will be there, as i'm involved in some of it. Of course as it's a simulcast, there will be a lot of upscaled stuff but there is quite a lot in the works.


----------



## thechachman

JeromeO'Donohoe said:


> i can tell you that there certainly is some distinct, home-grown HD programming that will be there, as i'm involved in some of it. Of course as it's a simulcast, there will be a lot of upscaled stuff but there is quite a lot in the works.


 I'm sure a lot of the "home-grown" content will be HD (and probably has been HD shot for months now) as long as the live OB fed broadcasts ... but for us (and many others I would suspect) it'll take more than "one mixed channel, one sports channel and two movie channels" from Sky [in addition to artsworld/natgeo and BBC] to get me to open my wallet up for SkyHD and all the incremental replacements/upgrades/etc it would entail.


----------



## sanderton

thechachman said:


> Ok, personally know few details but something I read alleged that SkyOne HD will simply be an upscaled simulcast of the current channel and not "switching from upscaled simulcast to distinct HD programme" for a single available in native HD show and then "switching back from distinct HD programme to upscaled simulcast of existing channel" for the 90-odd% of programming which is native SD.
> 
> I guess only time will tell.


No, it will broadcast HD shows in HD and SD shows upscaled. While 90% being SD may be accurate measured in hours, vituually anything might actually want to watch On Sky One is made in HD.

There are some very odd stories going around the forums which make little sense...


----------



## sanderton

thechachman said:


> I'm sure a lot of the "home-grown" content will be HD (and probably has been HD shot for months now) as long as the live OB fed broadcasts ... but for us (and many others I would suspect) it'll take more than "one mixed channel, one sports channel and two movie channels" from Sky [in addition to artsworld/natgeo and BBC] to get me to open my wallet up for SkyHD and all the incremental replacements/upgrades/etc it would entail.


Movies, live rugby, Amerian import SF, the BBC... all that's missing is Channel 4 and that's my entire viewing line up in glorious HD!


----------



## JeromeO'Donohoe

same here!


----------



## cyril

sanderton said:


> Movies, live rugby, Amerian import SF, the BBC... all that's missing is Channel 4 and that's my entire viewing line up in glorious HD!


We're also stuck with F1 and World Rally in SD tho 

As 50%-80% of my viewing has to be with SWMBO, SD is fine for her shows (Apprentice, Desperate housewives, Relocation, Gordon Ramsey,chick flicks etc..) so TiVo is going to stay for around another 6 years in my household I reckon.


----------



## doctor.steve

I'll be staying put with my Tivo.
I mean, stand back and look at where it is -still- against the competition!

I'm with Telewest and they're launching hi-def with their tvdrive. They've built the software on the top of their existing ui.

The tivo stuff is rock solid stable software (even with all my tivoweb patches).

I've looked at MCE as well (new technology) and come to the conclusion that... it looks nice... and to be honest I guess that's what quite a few posters actually want - some kind of upgrade (maybe have the interface in pink or whatever).

I used to get this pang after buying the first ipod, of wanting to buy the next version (or whatever apple released) just because it was there, until I realised that the new things were just that "newer" - the ipod on sale today is still a mp3 player like mine from a few years ago (and the interface is the same) - just in colour now with a nicer font... 

Of course if all that happened from a new Tivo launch was a nicer font and a different colour UI - would you still buy one?


----------



## mrtickle

cyril said:


> We're also stuck with F1 and World Rally in SD tho


Even worse, and it leaves me gasping with disbelief - F1 is *still* 4:3 on ITV1!


----------



## sanderton

Will it still be 4:3 on Sunday you think?


----------



## thechachman

sanderton said:


> No, it will broadcast HD shows in HD and SD shows upscaled. While 90% being SD may be accurate measured in hours, vituually anything might actually want to watch On Sky One is made in HD. There are some very odd stories going around the forums which make little sense...


 That makes much more sense I must admit ...


----------



## thechachman

mrtickle said:


> Even worse, and it leaves me gasping with disbelief - F1 is *still* 4:3 on ITV1!


 And some of the Champions League as well still ...


----------



## eric23

Has anyone been listening to the Conference Call? I've only just joined, has the UK been mentioned?!?!


----------



## GarySargent

Why would they mention the UK - what is to mention?!


----------



## alanjrobertson

GarySargent said:


> Why would they mention the UK - what is to mention?!


 Hopefully to talk about plans for the release of some new hardware??

Sadly there's nothing mentioned in the accompanying financial statement/press release so I doubt there'll be much in the 1st 1/2 hour of the conference call. The 2nd half is for questions so it's conceivable something might be mentioned then but I doubt it.


----------



## eric23

The Conference Call was referred to by an American poster, earlier in this thread. He suggested we kept our fingers crossed that the UK market would be covered in the call.

I've just been listening to the tail end of it, and with a little bit of reading of this thread, I have discovered that TiVo have decided to start really upsetting US customers by getting rid of lifetime subscriptions. (On new boxes, that is.)

So, UK subscribers with lifetime subscriptions, be very, very thankful! For US customers now, the only option is to stay subscribed at between $17-20/month, depending on the period of time you commit to. AND no discounts on second/third/fourth/etc. boxes anymore!

Lots of people in that thread are now saying that they are seriously going to have to evaluate whether to buy new Series 3 boxes when they become available.

It's all getting very interesting for TiVo! Will they be able to ride it out? Have they made the right decision? Will they see the churn rate (which they were so keen to discuss in the Conference Call) suddenly take a very steep upwards climb?

And here we are, in the UK, waiting to jump at a chance to buy new boxes that have a US feature set! It seems TiVo have really got their whole situation messed up.


----------



## blindlemon

eric23 said:


> For US customers now, the only option is to stay subscribed at between $17-20/month, depending on the period of time you commit to. AND no discounts on second/third/fourth/etc. boxes anymore!


But those prices _include_ an 80 hour box, which is yours to keep (like a Sky digibox) at the end of the contract period.

Just for fun, I converted the new US prices to £:-

* £9.75/month or £270 prepaid with 3-year commitment
* £10.91/month or £212 prepaid with 2-year commitment
* £11.49/month or £129 prepaid with 1-year commitment

£129 for an 80gb TiVo with all the funky Series 2 features and a year of free service, or £270 for the same machine with 3 years service. That's equivalent to *£7.75/month including a free box* if you sign up for 3 years and prepay.

The withdrawal of the lifetime option is a shame, but it makes sense for TiVo as a lifetime sub is effectively a loss-maker after 23 months (20 months here in the UK). So the question is: will TiVo introduce a £129 Series 2 to the UK? As much as existing TiVo owners may bemoan the new pricing in the US, a £129 UK TiVo would surely sell like hot cakes in the PVR-starved UK market :up:


----------



## eric23

Previously in the States, you could get a Series 2 80GB box for $69.99 (£40.28!!!!! Yes, it's sickening, isn't it) - if you signed up to a year's subscription @ $12.95/month (£7.45).

JUST slightly cheaper than the UK! That means you had to spend £129.68 in the first year, but for that you got a box and a 12 month subscription. After which, you could do what you wanted to - including transfer over to a lifetime subscription.

Now you can't get a lifetime in the States, and it seems you have to continue paying the $20/month subscription after that time is up. I guess US customers might be able to negotiate that fee down to the $17 lowest subscription, but maybe not.

The fact is, that over the short term, the pricing is the same (£129 for the first year) - but after that, you're screwed - the whole concept of "lifetime" is over.

Also, US users have been used to additional boxes being charged at a lower rate. That's gone now too.

But I agree with your other comment, blindlemon - UK users would trample each other to get hold of brand spanking new Series 2 OR Series 3 TiVos for the same price!


----------



## blindlemon

eric23 said:


> Now you can't get a lifetime in the States, and it seems you have to continue paying the $20/month subscription after that time is up. I guess US customers might be able to negotiate that fee down to the $17 lowest subscription, but maybe not.


This post says otherwise:-


TiVoOpsMgr said:


> HannahWCU said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I was to purchase a Tivo with the new "Bundled" pricing, say the $19.95 per month option, ("free" Tivo and $19.95 month for 12 months), at the end of the contract (in this case 12 months), could I then change my contract to a "service only" contract and now only pay $12.95 per month. Or does it continue at $19.95, $18.95 or $16.95, depending on the original contract?
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct, you could switch to a new contract that's service-only by calling us, and pay only $12.95 per month. If you don't call us, you'll continue to be billed at the original contract price.
Click to expand...

So basically, if you're bright enough to realise that paying $19.95/mth for one year and $12.95/mth for the next two is cheaper than paying $16.95/mth for three years, and you know how to use a phone, you're onto a winner


----------



## eric23

Right, I missed that. That's naughty! You have to now be organised enough to call up and change over to the lower price, otherwise TiVo are quite happy to take more money than necessary.

Still - no lifetime! I wonder how many people in the UK would have ditched TiVo had they been paying £10/month for the last four years - and just for listings too, in our cases, no software updates! £120 a year, just for EPG data, is a joke. It's only £8.99/year for a Digiguide subscription, and look at the quality of their data.


----------



## GarySargent

The UK costs include a freephone call every day which is not part of the USA service (they use local calls which are free).

My digiguide still hasn't switched the Sky channel numbers. I suspect I have to manually delete and re-add them all. Bah.


----------



## terryeden

eric23 said:


> I wonder how many people in the UK would have ditched TiVo had they been paying £10/month for the last four years


I'm in that situation. I picked up one of the cheap boxes 4 years ago for £100. I was a student, so the thought of paying an extra £200 filled me with dread.

I was *convinced* that new hardware was just around the corner.... Buy a lifetime subscription *had* to be a waste of money.

Now, 4 years later, there's still a tenner coming off my credit card each month. I'm no longer a student and I could afford rthe £200.... but I'm sure once I splash the cash, new hardware will come out and I'll have lost out.

Hmmm.... maybe that's what TiVo are waiting for... me to waste my money....


----------



## poppadum

eric23 said:


> Still - no lifetime! I wonder how many people in the UK would have ditched TiVo had they been paying £10/month for the last four years


If there had not been a lifetime subscription option I would never have gone for TiVo in the first place. I just mentally added the £200 cost of the lifetime subscription to the price of the unit itself and considered the total cost.


----------



## katman

terryeden said:


> I'm no longer a student and I could afford rthe £200.... but I'm sure once I splash the cash, new hardware will come out and I'll have lost out.
> 
> Hmmm.... maybe that's what TiVo are waiting for... me to waste my money....


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE spend the £200 on a lifetime sub.

Should your worst fear come true and new hardware appear meaning that you had effectively "wasted" your money I am sure we could have a whipround amongst the members of the forum to reimburse you for your loss


----------



## gadg

For me, last week's re-config to accommodate the Sky radio channels represented a significant downgrade to Tivo. Previously, I could record two channels on Sky+ and a third (analogue) channel on Tivo. Surprisingly, I needed to do this quite often to get around programme overlaps, etc. Now, that extra functionality is gone - I can no longer access Tivo's inbuilt tuner. 

So although Tivo is still better in many respects than Sky+ I'm finding myself using it less and less.

David


----------



## Anndra

"_Who else is ready to jump?_"

Me. While my TiVo is working I'll stay where I am, but my last box failed beyond repair and I'm not going through the expense of buying an old box for new prices again. I will be very seriously looking at the Toppy/Elgato options. As I won't be paying £10 a month, the replacement would very quickly pay for itself. Whether I can live without the TiVo software or not is another matter.


----------



## cwaring

eric23 said:


> I wonder how many people in the UK would have ditched TiVo had they been paying £10/month for the last four years


  This is precisely what I _have_ been doing though that was mainly because I couldn't afford the LT sub as well as the Tivo at the time


----------



## kmusgrave

cwaring said:


> No, simply says that _you_ weren't happy.
> 
> I haave Tivo so never used it [reffering to TW UI]


Me too, until recently. Since Teleport started I've used the TW UI to get into that. Their UI is pretty bad but the Teleport stuff (Replay anyway) is pretty useful.


----------



## eric23

No, same here too. As already mentioned in my earlier posts, this is precisely what I've been doing. I just wonder how many of those who have said they won't jump would have said the same thing if they'd been hanging on with monthly subs!

£480 for EPG data for the last four years! I think that is probably worthy of being sectioned.


----------



## kmusgrave

sanderton said:


> I've already switched my viewing of the non-subscription channels to MCE via Xbox 360s for picture quality and multiple tuner reasons;


A few people have mentioned using Xbox 360s with MCE - how does this work? I've got an MCE with (single) DTT tuner (which I'm using more than Tivo at the moment!) I've also just bought a new HDReady TV ready for either SkyHD or TWHD. The HD stuff I've already downloaded is excellent.

I was wondering about getting an Xbox360 purly for TV viewing (I'm not into consol gaming) but don't know how it would help me. If I can use it to get better picture quality then I'll get one.


----------



## AMc

FWIW Now I have used Tivo for many years if I had to pay £120 a year in subs to keep it working and it recorded Freeview at broadcast rate then I wouldn't really have a problem. I'd probably get a new Tivo to go with my existing Lifetimer. I could ditch Telewest and offset £19 for TV + £6 for Filmfour (I know it's going freeview soon). Especially if the initial hardware was discounted in relation to the sub.
I can see it being an obstacle to aquiring new customers - but not as big an obstacle as no hardware to buy! 

As far as the 'naughtiness' of charging higher rate subs once the initial lock in period is gone - take a look at mobile contracts for the same model. You commit and get a subsidised handset offset over the contract period. If you're uninformed you continue to pay that higher rate after the end of the contract. Ring up to cancel and you'll usually be offered an incentive to resign for another lock in or a discount. Or ring Virgin Mobile etc. and move your number to a prepay bundle and you can seriously cut your costs and use the paid for handset. I can't blame Tivo for this, it is naughty(ish) but hardly sharp practice in the general service provision context.


----------



## TIVO_YORK99

kmusgrave said:


> A few people have mentioned using Xbox 360s with MCE - how does this work? I've got an MCE with (single) DTT tuner (which I'm using more than Tivo at the moment!) I've also just bought a new HDReady TV ready for either SkyHD or TWHD. The HD stuff I've already downloaded is excellent.
> 
> I was wondering about getting an Xbox360 purly for TV viewing (I'm not into consol gaming) but don't know how it would help me. If I can use it to get better picture quality then I'll get one.


You switch on the XBOX 360 on the same network as the MCE, and click on the 
green button.

It loads the MCE extender and gives you a code. You then go onto the MCE PC, go to http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/pcsetup and run the setup. 
After a while, you are asked for the code for the Xbox 360, enter that and you're done.

When you use the green button on the XBOX 360 remote, it will automatically switch on the Xbox, load MCE and it will look exactly the same as the menu's on the PC. It is very impressive!


----------



## poissony

The 360 is very noisy, so unless it's in a cabinet, think seriously about getting one solely for the purposes of watching TV.


----------



## kmusgrave

TIVO_YORK99 said:


> When you use the green button on the XBOX 360 remote, it will automatically switch on the Xbox, load MCE and it will look exactly the same as the menu's on the PC. It is very impressive!


So does it allow you to watch stuff recorded on MCE on another TV? (Sorry, I don't really know what the Media Extenders do  ) I am interesetd by the extra quality that people are mentioning.


----------



## kmusgrave

poissony said:


> The 360 is very noisy, so unless it's in a cabinet, think seriously about getting one solely for the purposes of watching TV.


I probably couldn't hear it above the noise of 2 Tivos, a Sky+, a MCE PCE, a laptop and external disk drive - unless the Xbox is Really noisy


----------



## TIVO_YORK99

kmusgrave said:


> So does it allow you to watch stuff recorded on MCE on another TV? (Sorry, I don't really know what the Media Extenders do  ) I am interesetd by the extra quality that people are mentioning.


Yes it does.

When you load MCE on the 360 it is as if you are on the MCE itself. You can watch live TV, and watch anything it has recorded.

Its just like having a really long video cable between the MCE and your TV in another room.

Hope this makes sense

Pete


----------



## simonf7

poissony said:


> The 360 is very noisy, so unless it's in a cabinet, think seriously about getting one solely for the purposes of watching TV.


Mine's fairly quiet (made January) when running in MCE, just a slight whirring from a fan which the tv is easily louder than normally.

Si


----------



## sanderton

The 360 noise is subjective. It is way noisier than a TiVo, but way quieter than a typical PC. A VHS tape deck with the tape running as about the level. I run my TV pretty loud, so it doesn't bother me much, although I have put the one in the living room into a glass doored cabinet to reduce noise further.


----------



## PhilG

There seesm to be some debate about the £10/month vs the life time sub. As I said further up the post, I regard my 36p/day for reasonably up to date listings to be not such a bad deal. It's also a trickle of revenue for Tivo as well, which can't hurt (I wonder if there'd still be a Tivo service is everyone had paid "up front").

Also, I can't help comparing the £10/month Tivo fee with the £126.50/year "TV tax". I know what I get for my Tivo sub, but what do I get for my licence fee? (Especially now that the govt have decided that it is really a tax after all and they can do what they like with it - it's no longer guaranteed revenue for the Beeb)


----------



## B33K34

WinMCE questions again! 
XBox360 is one extender option - what's the position on other PCs around the house? 
Do they also need to be running MCE or is there a 'client' that will run on vanilla XP?
If theres no client can you just browse the files over a network and play them in Media Player?


----------



## cwaring

PhilG said:


> Also, I can't help comparing the £10/month Tivo fee with the £126.50/year "TV tax". I know what I get for my Tivo sub, but what do I get for my licence fee?


Technically (and, I suppose, pedantically) it's actually a license to receive television broadcasts. That the Govt. passes the money (all of it!) to a broadcaster to provide PSB services is really by the by. They could just as easily spend it on something completely else 

As to what you get, apart from the ability to legally receive broadcast TV, well...

8 TV channels
10 National Radio channels
6 Regional Radio channels
40 local Radio channels (in England)
1 very comprehensive Web site

All commercial ad-free!



> (Especially now that the govt have decided that it is really a tax after all and they can do what they like with it - it's no longer guaranteed revenue for the Beeb)


As I understand it, it is still not _actually_ a *tax*. The re-classification is only for internal audit purposes, or something. I'm not 100% sure


----------



## sanderton

B33K34 said:


> WinMCE questions again!
> XBox360 is one extender option - what's the position on other PCs around the house?
> Do they also need to be running MCE or is there a 'client' that will run on vanilla XP?
> If theres no client can you just browse the files over a network and play them in Media Player?


You can just play the video files with WMP10 on any XP machine. You can't watch live TV though.


----------



## sanderton

cwaring said:


> Technically (and, I suppose, pedantically) it's actually a license to receive television broadcasts. As I understand it, it is still not _actually_ a *tax*. The re-classification is only for internal audit purposes, or something. I'm not 100% sure


A TV "licence" is a licence to receive TV broadcasts.
Car "tax" is a license to allow a car to be driven on public roads.

Bggred if I can see any difference, sematic or otherwise!


----------



## PhilG

and surely I'd still be allowed to listen to the radio even without paying the lice/tax??

And, by the way, the govt. are intending to divert some of that "BBC" money to provide digtal access to the "disadvantaged" people who will be "disadvantaged" further by the analogue switch-off - that's part of the reason for the change of terminology


----------



## ndunlavey

PhilG said:


> what do I get for my licence fee?


Rather more than I get for the duty I pay on alcohol and ****, which, AFAICT, goes to pay for free education, healthcare and policing for other people's rugrats.


----------



## sjp

GarySargent said:


> The UK costs include a freephone call every day which is not part of the USA service (they use local calls which are free).
> 
> My digiguide still hasn't switched the Sky channel numbers. I suspect I have to manually delete and re-add them all. Bah.


You may have had this already, I haven't been to the end of this thread...

you can right click and "change channel details"


----------



## pixuk

PhilG said:


> A number of people seem to be saying "Tivo is not as good as it can be, so I am giving up and moving to something else that is not as good as Tivo".... ??????


Not what I read. I think many are saying TiVo made a lot of promises (implied and otherwise) about the UK market, which they haven't kept. Meanwhile, the market is moving forward (HD, other media, new features) and those aren't possible on the TiVo Series 1. "Not as good as TiVo" starts to become a very subjective thing.



PhilG said:


> OK, I accept what some people are saying about the £10/month, but I regard that as purely a fee for providing the TV listing information (to hell with any customer service, upgrades, new features or whatever). Let's face it, £10/month is only 36p/day - less than a daily paper. True, the listings are not 100% correct, but neither are anyone elses (and even if they were, we'd still need the broadcasters to be 100% accurate too - how likely is that?)


I for one have a problem with this, since pure listings are available elsewhere for free. What exactly am I paying £10 per month for? This comes back to the taboo can-o-worms regarding alternative EPG sources for TiVo. For years we have all accepted that this is a no-go area because it would deny TiVo Inc a revenue stream, and therefore rule out further product development. Well hey, I for one am no longer holding out any hope of TiVo product development in the UK. Currently they are now just leeching money out of my pocket, and I'd be very interested at looking at ways that I can get a product I own (my TiVo) to use a free EPG (ie, XMLTV). Why exactly are we continuing to champion loyalty to a company that abandoned us 4 years ago?

This may not be popular amongst the TiVo apologists, but Eric's right. It's time to stop waiting for TiVo Inc to do something in the UK and start working out what's next.


----------



## cwaring

pixuk said:


> Currently they are now just leeching money out of my pocket...


There's an easy solution to that. STOP PAYING THEM!!



pixuk said:


> Why exactly are we continuing to champion loyalty to a company that abandoned us 4 years ago?


Because they are _still_ providing exactly what they are suposed to for the money you are paying!


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> I for one have a problem with this, since pure listings are available elsewhere for free. What exactly am I paying £10 per month for? .


You are paying for listing containing additional data which allows TiVo functions like season passes to work.

The underlying data may be "free" but the value is in the presentation. That's why 1.5 million people buy What's on TV every week when there are free alternatives!


----------



## dialanothernumb

pixuk said:


> Why exactly are we continuing to champion loyalty to a company that abandoned us 4 years ago?


Not sure anyone is championing TiVo, just the box from TiVo...and the phrase "abandoned" is inappropriate... they still provide the service you signed up for...
That sentence alone makes your post sound (to me at least) a little overblown and pompous. I am sure you are not pompous.


----------



## pixuk

I seem to have ruffled collective feathers. Apologies, I didn't realise you're not allowed to question TiVo Inc around here.


----------



## iankb

pixuk said:


> ... I didn't realise you're not allowed to question TiVo Inc around here.


You're perfectly allowed to question TiVo Inc, but I suggest that you compare like for like.

Free EPG's do not have coded data. And in that, I mean that programs, series, episodes, genres, actors, etc, do not have the unique codes allocated to them that allow the TiVo to apply search and match rules in a consistent manner, so allowing series passes and wishlists to work. That additional data has to be added by TiVo/Tribune, for which we are paying them.


----------



## pixuk

Ian, 

If TiVo suggestions really did work, then I'd conceed that point; but you'd think after 5 years of the TiVo watching what I record, it'd know me by now. But every day I still scratch my head at some of the left of field programmes that appear at the bottom of the Now Playing list.


----------



## blindlemon

Hey, maybe you just have eclectic tastes...


----------



## pixuk

Perhaps I do


----------



## cwaring

pixuk said:


> If TiVo suggestions really did work...


pixuk. Ian didn't even _mention_ Suggestions. That is a sepeeate thing, I think. Season Passes and Wishlists require the meta-data that Tribune adds.


----------



## ericd121

I'm with Carl on this one. 
If Tivo records the progs that you tell it to record (and for me it does), why worry about the progs it's guessing you might like?


----------



## pixuk

Ok serious question, all emotions aside.

Let's say someone wanted to switch to using Radio Times listings via XMLTV as their source of EPG data (much like the Canadian, Australian and South African users have done) - why is that still a taboo subject?

Bear in mind I'm not asking how to do it (don't want to break any forum rules). 

The techology to use alternative data sources exists and is in use in countries where TiVo doesn't operate, but not at all where TiVo has a service. For many years the reason (in the UK at least) has been to protect TiVo's revenue stream so that we will see future development. And that's why I now raise the question. Future development in the UK seems very unlikely, and even if a Series 3 where to be announced over here, aren't some of you feeling even a tiny bit left-out-in-the-cold for the last 4 years whilst the US have been playing with the Series 2?

As for the thorny subject of 'service theft' (as it is described in the sticky of the forum). Using an alternative data feed for your EPG is not theft, it is a consumer choice. When I buy a car, I can buy the petrol for it from various companies. Even the programming on my TV can come via various suppliers (Sky, Freeview or one of the cable companies) so why can't I choose my supplier of EPG data?

Being realistic, unless a Series 3 hits these shores, the number of subscribers TiVo has in the UK is an ever dwindling number. Without Series 3, eventually it's not going to be viable for TiVo Inc to maintain the service, and we're going to have to address this question sooner or later.

Right, I'll go put my flame suit on...


----------



## ericd121

> even if a Series 3 where to be announced over here, aren't some of you feeling even a tiny bit left-out-in-the-cold for the last 4 years whilst the US have been playing with the Series 2?


No, because 
My Tivo works
The Service I paid for is still being provided
I don't make emotional attachments to businesses.



> As for the thorny subject of 'service theft' (as it is described in the sticky of the forum). Using an alternative data feed for your EPG is not theft, it is a consumer choice. When I buy a car, I can buy the petrol for it from various companies.


But when you bought your Tivo car, you entered into a contract to only buy petrol from Tivo. 
If you don't buy petrol from Tivo, you have to drive round with the handbrake on...


----------



## pixuk

ericd121 said:


> But when you bought your Tivo car, you entered into a contract to only buy petrol from Tivo.


That's an interesting point, but totally unenforceable. In the same way that I am under no obligation to continue to pay £10 per month subscription charge, TiVo have no legal right to come into my property and inspect equipment that I own outright. Now, if my contract with TiVo originally suggested that I'd somehow lease or license the hardware, that would be a different matter. Sadly I don't have a copy of my original contract with TiVO, so I can't check; but I'd be interested to see what it says.



ericd121 said:


> If you don't buy petrol from Tivo, you have to drive round with the handbrake on...


Well, that's subjective since my understanding on the Radio Times/XMLTV data would suggest it includes all the genre / actor / director classification that would be adequate for my requirements (and clearly the Canadians, Australians and South Africans are happy with their equivilant feeds). But, the point is, if I want to put regular unleaded in my tank rather than super premium because it's cheaper, that's my choice.


----------



## ndunlavey

And what's stopping you?


----------



## pixuk

ndunlavey said:


> And what's stopping you?


The tools that exist to use XMLTV data on a TiVo actively block their usage in countries that currently have a TiVo subscription service, and in countries such as the UK, discussion of enabling it is not permitted in user forums.


----------



## Nebulous

pixuk said:


> Using an alternative data feed for your EPG is not theft, it is a consumer choice.


I suppose it depends how you look at it. If you treat a Tivo as three separate items:

1. The hardware
2. The Tivo operating system
3. The EPG

If when you bought your Tivo you became the owner of items 1 and 2, then I suppose morally at least you should be allowed to use any EPG source.
However, if Tivo subsidize or give away item 2 as part of the purchase price in exchange for your promise the pay for the EPG service, then personally, I would feel morally obligated to only use Tivo's EPG.

However, it is far from clear to me which it is


----------



## ndunlavey

But no-one is stopping you writing your versions, presumably?


----------



## ericd121

pixuk said:


> ...equipment that I own outright..I don't have a copy of my original contract with TiVO, so I can't check; but I'd be interested to see what it says.


Have a look at *http://www.tivo.co.uk/3.2.asp#4 * 
and also the Q and A lower down that page sums it up:-
*Do I have to subscribe to TiVo to purchase the digital video recorder?
There is no legal requirement to subscribe to TiVo. However, the digital video recorder offers limited functionality without the subscription. 
*


> ...the Radio Times/XMLTV data...includes all the genre / actor / director classification that would be adequate for my requirements...But, the point is, if I want to put regular unleaded in my tank rather than super premium because it's cheaper, that's my choice.


If you unsub your Tivo, you lose *Season Pass* and *WishList* functionality, so yes, you own the hardware, but you are subscribing in order to use the advanced features of the software, hence my analogy of driving with the handbrake on.


----------



## sanderton

TiVo is a computer, and just like any computer while you own the TiVo hardware you do NOT own the TiVo software. You have a license to use the software, and the licence does not permit you to use alternate data sources or to modify the TiVo software to use alternate data sources.


----------



## DeadKenny

ndunlavey said:


> <shrug> I still don't get it. My TiVo still does everything I bought it for 5 years ago, and I still can't see anything out there that does it as well that I'd jump ship to. Oh, and I'm unhacked, too, apart from a larger disk.


Doesn't do Sky radio anymore without a techy hack. I would expect more 4 digit channels to spring up at some point too which will screw us completely.

I'm also finding the listings are getting more inaccurate or at least find it's frustrating that TiVo is not up to date 'live' like Sky+ (I assume) is, i.e. when schedules change. The number of times I've had the wrong programme recorded or endings/starts chopped off... .

The thing is, the competition (i.e. Sky+) was always better in some areas and much weaker in others and really it just came down to picture quality and the twin tuner to consider. The benefits of TiVo outweighed those of Sky+ especially considering the difference between TiVo and Sky+ SD recordings. However with Sky+HD and potentially deminishing features with TiVo thanks to continual Sky changes, the benefits of Sky+HD are looking to outweigh those of TiVo. It's not just Sky either, it's the other HD services and then there's the proliferation of media center PCs (both Windows and Linux) now that easily match or surpass UK TiVo.

I love my TiVo but I know there's no future in the UK for TiVo and I'm thinking about how to upgrade my kit next and I want to plan ahead for HD support as much as possible. That rules out TiVo. I was going to upgrade my TiVo but I've put that on hold. I do also half expect UK support to be pulled at any moment despite the optimisim of many (I'm pesemistic from experience of adopting many niche/geek systems in the past  ).

There's no anger though with me, just dissapointment that TiVo could never get things going in the UK. I think I would be angry if I was paying £10 a month though.

p.s. The minute Mr Murdoch gets into bed with Microsoft (e.g. through MCE integration), Sky will become a very attractive proposition.


----------



## pixuk

sanderton said:


> TiVo is a computer, and just like any computer while you own the TiVo hardware you do NOT own the TiVo software. You have a license to use the software, and the licence does not permit you to use alternate data sources or to modify the TiVo software to use alternate data sources.


Interesting. Look at your signature file.



sanderton said:


> Check out my hacks, including intelligent automatic padding, background re-prioritise Season Passes in TiVoWeb, make your TiVo send you a daily status e-mail, and other stuff we can't talk about on TC here TiVos: 110Gb + Sky + CacheCard, 160Gb + Freeview + CacheCard, 110Gb + just network (Turbonet & 802.11g)


Doesn't this count as modifying the software?

I've worked in software for over 20 years, and the license is there to prevent re-sale. Modifying software for your own use is what the plug-in market is all about. You can't have it both ways.



ericd121 said:


> If you unsub your Tivo, you lose Season Pass and WishList functionality, so yes, you own the hardware, but you are subscribing in order to use the advanced features of the software, hence my analogy of driving with the handbrake on.


I think the point is that you take the data present it to the TiVo in a format which retains things like Wishlists ans Season Passes; the Radio Times XMLTV data certainly includes the genre, actors, etc that could enable Wishlists, and I doubt the Canadian & Australian solutions don't include Season Passes. Whatever the obstacle here, I'm sure software can solve it.


----------



## JonMace

iankb said:


> You're perfectly allowed to question TiVo Inc, but I suggest that you compare like for like.
> 
> Free EPG's do not have coded data. And in that, I mean that programs, series, episodes, genres, actors, etc, do not have the unique codes allocated to them that allow the TiVo to apply search and match rules in a consistent manner, so allowing series passes and wishlists to work. That additional data has to be added by TiVo/Tribune, for which we are paying them.


MCEs EPG if free (well its is once you have brought the OS at about £80) and is just as good as Tivos providing wishlists seasonpasses etc.


----------



## dialanothernumb

pixuk said:


> Interesting. Look at your signature file.
> 
> Doesn't this count as modifying the software?
> 
> I've worked in software for over 20 years, and the license is there to prevent re-sale. Modifying software for your own use is what the plug-in market is all about. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> I think the point is that you take the data present it to the TiVo in a format which retains things like Wishlists ans Season Passes; the Radio Times XMLTV data certainly includes the genre, actors, etc that could enable Wishlists, and I doubt the Canadian & Australian solutions don't include Season Passes. Whatever the obstacle here, I'm sure software can solve it.


I am struggling to see your point (it's a long thread I guess) but at the end of the day, alternative methods do exist for aquiring data, and if that's what you want to do, this site is not the place to discuss it (I assume you know why) but a method (or two) exists out there. The majority of TiVo users are not sufficiently motivated to do that and either accept what they've got or move on to other PVR solutions, with varying degrees of success. There is very little "fan-boy"ism on this site, just respect for the fact that alternative guide data sourcing is seen as service theft and beyond discussion on this site.


----------



## iankb

JonMace said:


> MCEs EPG if free (well its is once you have brought the OS at about £80) and is just as good as Tivos providing wishlists seasonpasses etc.


Can you access MCE's EPG without Windows MCE? i.e. Is it legal to use it on a Linux-based computer running PVR software? If not, I question whether MCE's EPG is actually free, or just a lifetime subscription at a cost of ~£80.


----------



## iankb

pixuk said:


> Doesn't this count as modifying the software?


You seem to miss the point that modifying the software to use alternate data sources, and Sanderton modifying the software to enhance the product for those who subscribe to TiVo's data source, are totally different things. If you can't see the difference, and obviously TiVo Inc can, then it's just a waste of time discussing it.


----------



## kmusgrave

iankb said:


> You seem to miss the point that modifying the software to use alternate data sources, and Sanderton modifying the software to enhance the product for those who subscribe to TiVo's data source, are totally different things. If you can't see the difference, and obviously TiVo Inc can, then it's just a waste of time discussing it.


I've paid for lifteime subscriptions on my 3 Tivos. If I modify my software to get the data from elsewhere is that still "Service theft"?


----------



## dialanothernumb

kmusgrave said:


> I've paid for lifteime subscriptions on my 3 Tivos. If I modify my software to get the data from elsewhere is that still "Service theft"?


This has turned into a thread on the definition of service theft and all its variations.
kmusgrave, you are clearly an intelligent person, you know the answer to your question or at least how to get the answer.
Anyone who feels hard done by and wants an alternative guide... go ahead and google, but the debate on this thread is really headed nowhere.
Pity really because a discussion on alternatives to and limitations of TiVo was rather useful


----------



## iankb

kmusgrave said:


> I've paid for lifteime subscriptions on my 3 Tivos. If I modify my software to get the data from elsewhere is that still "Service theft"?


Technically, yes. Morally, almost certainly not; unless you share that information with people who might not have subscriptions, where you are in far more murky waters.

Basically, if you attempt to enable the full functionality of the otherwise-subsidised TiVo without paying some sort of subscription to TiVo's own service, then you could be considered to be 'stealing' that functionality. As to whether that matters to you or not is something for you to consider, and others to comment on. The answer is based upon morality, not on technicality.

TiVo Inc could probably point out restrictions in their licence that stops hacking but, if they don't lose by it, they are unlikely to complain. I would say that most hacking has made their product more attractive and, since it has been based upon the legally-subscribed TiVo service, has increased their revenues.

In the current climate of file-sharing, the issues of what is ethical or not has become a little distorted. Because it is so easy to get away with 'borrowing' music, etc, there are a lot more people who have strayed a little over the line. With regard to the TiVo however, the wish to see it succeed, and for the UK service to continue, makes the majority of us strongly-object to the idea of service theft. It might be different if we were able to steal off Murdoch.


----------



## pixuk

I'd like to preface this post by stating for the record that I currently have a TiVo with monthly subscription, and have been paying that subscription for some 5+ years (maybe more, haven't been keeping track) and I have no immediate plans to change that situation.

However, that said, your assertion that someone who uses an alternate source of EPG data is a thief is incorrect. Stealing is taking something without consent; if you get your EPG data from an alternative source that doesn't charge you, that isn't stealing. At the very worst it could be described as denying TiVo Inc. of a revenue stream, but you are not a thief for doing it.

You have always been able to buy a TiVo as a standalone unit. Sure, without the listings it's a bit like a chocolate teapot, but this makes a subsidy of the unit seem unreasonable. Indeed, they don't make the hardware, they license the technology. Are you suggesting that TiVo paid Thomson for each TiVo produced, not the other way around? 

Even if this were true, TiVo must have based their profitability on a unit somewhere under the £200 subscription fee. Anybody in the UK who has already paid 20 months worth of subs has already covered any subsidy. If this were not the case, then TiVo Inc. really do not deserve to be in business, since their only glimmer of making any money out of a sale was if the (optional) service was taken out and they kept their fingers crossed that nobody took out a lifetime subscription. Then they had to bank on that customer staying a customer for a couple of years at least (and assuming they didn't take out the lifetime subscription, that must have been a gamble, since they may have thought things might change). What's wrong with this picture?

Ian, you are no doubt a very clever man, and I have gained much knowledge from your input on these forums, but on this point you're simply wrong.


----------



## sammoj

Not really commenting on the morality of allowing a Tivo device to access data from somewhere else. Is this not similar to using a mobile phone on another network once the initial contract has expired? We have a legal right to "unlock" a mobile after a contract period for a "reasonable" fee.

J


----------



## iankb

I'm not going to debate the exact legal term for it, since I'm not a laywer. While 'service theft' might be seen as the end result, the actual offence is probably copyright infringement.

TiVo's terms did not allow the software to be modified, because that could lead to people accessing their service without buying their subscription. That would dramatically reduce their revenue stream, upon which they totally depend. Their business model certainly did not allow them to make a profit without a significant level of subscription.

Therefore, technically, any modification of the software is an infringement of their terms. As to whether that is considered acceptable or not by the majority of TiVo users and, by TiVo themselves, is really down to whether you are using that modification to reduce their revenue stream. And whether you call that modification - theft, or copyright infringment, or binary abuse - is not really the issue.

The issue is not in the use of an alternate source of data, but the fact that you are using their software to do it. If you wrote your own software, and ran it on their hardware, that would be a different matter. To some extent, TiVo anticipated that, by ensuring the 'subsidised' hard drives were crippled to 9MB when used outside of a TiVo.


----------



## sanderton

pixuk -

My hacks cost TiVo noting so they allow them. They do monitor hacks, and there are some they take a less sanguine view of. I know people who have been, er, advised by TiVo's lawyers to not realease certain hacks.

If you think Wishlists and SPs will work properly with XMLTV data then I'm afraid you are wrong and need to do a bit more research on how they work. The Australians do a fair bit of modification to their data as I understand it.

If use of free alternative EPG data became widespread in the UK it would a) hasten TiVo's withdrawal of the service and b) make it likely that TiVo would clamp down on TiVo hacking. They could easily stop all hacks working, and stop the Australains doing what they do.

We therefore don't help or encourage selfish people who want to save a few quid at the expense of teh UK TiVo community.


----------



## eric23

Dragging things back on-topic here (!), the fact that my request for a member of TiVo staff to even acknowledge the UK market (in the US thread they were all reading) has been completely ignored speaks volumes, methinks!

All this talk about giving TiVo an ongoing revenue stream is ludicrous. All they've been giving us in return is something that GypsyMedia supply for £8.99/year!


----------



## pgogborn

I notice that Sky has just been knocking Freeview saying among other things has "there isn't a user-friendly PVR".

However, even without a user-friendly PVR it has been reported that "In January, 16,000 of the 280,000 Freeview boxes sold included a PVR, or nearly 6% of the total sold, according to GfK research".

As I think in a small way the demise of TiVo sales in the UK was due to the link with Sky and as Rupert is in effect squeezing TiVo out of his US satellite operations, I think it would be especially sweet revenge if a TiVo partner did indeed produce a Freeview TiVo.


----------



## pixuk

iankb said:


> I'm not going to debate the exact legal term for it, since I'm not a laywer. While 'service theft' might be seen as the end result, the actual offence is probably copyright infringement.


No copyright infringement takes place unless I take their intellectual property and pass it on (for a fee or otherwise) to others. Your description of binary abuse is probably closer to the mark. If their is any "offense" as such, it may be a breach of contract by modifying the software, but they wouldn't be able to enforce it because it can be proved they've turned a blind eye to the other software modifcations which strictly speaking break that same contract. In the eyes of the law they're the same thing and they would have set a precedent by accepting the former.

However...



sanderton said:


> If use of free alternative EPG data became widespread in the UK it would a) hasten TiVo's withdrawal of the service and b) make it likely that TiVo would clamp down on TiVo hacking. They could easily stop all hacks working, and stop the Australains doing what they do.
> 
> We therefore don't help or encourage selfish people who want to save a few quid at the expense of teh UK TiVo community.


That's a far more reasonable & honest argument against going down the alternative EPG feed route, and I thank you for it. What I didn't buy was the 'service theft' claim because, well, it just isn't, but your comments ring true.

The big "however", of course, is what do we do when the service does stop? I don't think anyone assumes it will go on forever without any active sales to new customers in the market.

Pix.


----------



## blindlemon

So long as there are enough people like you Pix who continue paying £10 per month for something us "lifetimers" finished paying for years ago, then I see no reason why TiVo would stop supplying data.

If at some point the cost of providing the data exceeds the value of monthly subs received then that would be a different story - but I, for one, fully expect to see a new UK TiVo well before that happens 

All this moaning and groaning about TiVo "abandoning" the UK market is, IMHO, utter rubbish. Yes, unfortunately, Thomson decided to stop producing the Series 1 hardware and TiVo (for wahatever reason) have not yet managed to secure a deal to produce a Series 2 machine here - but the _TiVo Service_ is still going strong, TiVo have recently updated their backend servers and signed a new deal with Tribune, and have publicly stated that they wish to 'expand' into China and the UK. A new box has now been launched in Taiwan and the new pricing structure announced for the US would make a very attractive proposition for the thousands of new users currently buying substandard Freeview 'PVR's here in the UK every month for the lack of anything better.

Before the end of 2006 is my prediction.


----------



## kmusgrave

iankb said:


> Originally Posted by kmusgrave
> I've paid for lifteime subscriptions on my 3 Tivos. If I modify my software to get the data from elsewhere is that still "Service theft"?
> 
> Technically, yes. Morally, almost certainly not; unless you share that information with people who might not have subscriptions, where you are in far more murky waters.


[Hypethetically, as I don't do any of this - the only hacks I've done are install larger hard drive, network card and Tivoweb] What am I actually stealing? And from whom? I've paid Tivo everything I owe them and I'm not using their service (and saving them the cost of the daily phone calls)


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> No copyright infringement takes place unless I take their intellectual property and pass it on (for a fee or otherwise) to others. Your description of binary abuse is probably closer to the mark. If their is any "offense" as such, it may be a breach of contract by modifying the software, but they wouldn't be able to enforce it because it can be proved they've turned a blind eye to the other software modifcations which strictly speaking break that same contract. In the eyes of the law they're the same thing and they would have set a precedent by accepting the former.


I take it you're not a lawyer! Precedent doesn't come into it; you can't get off a speeding ticket because the same policeman let someone else off with a warning the previous day.

And the laws on these things have been tightened up considerably; it wouldn't just be breach of contract, and you don't have to pass the data on. Reverse engineering software to bypass encryption is against the new wave of copyright law - DMCA in the US and the equivalent European law here - which renders it a CRIMINAL offense.

[qote]
The big "however", of course, is what do we do when the service does stop? I don't think anyone assumes it will go on forever without any active sales to new customers in the market.

Pix.[/QUOTE]

If it stops, then we'll roll our own. I would hope if it did stop that TiVo would assist us in doing that.


----------



## ndunlavey

Under what circumstances does the contract between TiVo and me allow TiVo to stop providing the service? Would they have to fold the company?


----------



## sanderton

No, they can stop or alter the service at any time. i think they have to give you notice but I could be wrong.


----------



## iankb

They have already dissolved the UK company, and presumably could withdraw the service without affecting the status of the US company.

However, I should imagine that they will be loath to withdraw the service, because of the impression it will give if they try and expand again into any other country.

_[As a point of interest, I notice that a dormant company in Birmingham has been using the 'TiVo Limited' name for the last 18 months. Is this a (cyber) squatter, a coincidence, or just TiVo holding on to the name?]_


----------



## ndunlavey

Ah, OK - so the company I had a contract with no longer exists, and someone else is paying for the service to be continued as goodwill?


----------



## cwaring

No, Tivo, inc. still exists in the US. I'm guessing that our contracts are now with them; transferred form the UK arm of the company, or something.

Besides, I wish people would stop picking nits  Your Tivo still does what you bought it for so what's the problem? Of course, in the case of LT subs people who paied more than 20 months ago, it's doing it _for nothing_


----------



## ndunlavey

IWHT that if the contract hgad changed, I would have had a new one issued. I'll go and check my contract at some time and see who it's with.



> Besides, I wish people would stop picking nits


Is that aimed at me? If so, why?


----------



## pixuk

ndunlavey said:


> Is that aimed at me? If so, why?


It was probably aimed at me too, to which I respond if you don't like people having a different opinion then you really shouldn't be posting on a public forum.

sanderton, no, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not convinced by your assertion that tinkering with a Tivo for your own personal use is a criminal offense, so I've asked my lawyer to take a look at this thread and I'll get back to you with his professional opinion.


----------



## browellm

pixuk said:


> It was probably aimed at me too, to which I respond if you don't like people having a different opinion then you really shouldn't be posting on a public forum.
> 
> sanderton, no, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not convinced by your assertion that tinkering with a Tivo for your own personal use is a criminal offense, so I've asked my lawyer to take a look at this thread and I'll get back to you with his professional opinion.


Why would you (seemingly) begrudge Tivo their £10/month, and yet you are happy to pay a lawyer to split hairs for you?

Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch - "I'd like to have an argument please."
"Certainly Sir, will that be 5 minutes or the full half hour?"


----------



## iankb

And for a bit of light relief, and just in case you wonder why lawyers are such nice people that you wish to donate towards their retirement fund ...

Jokes about Lawyers​


----------



## ndunlavey

sanderton said:


> No, they can stop or alter the service at any time. i think they have to give you notice but I could be wrong.


What would that mean for a lifetime subscription, though? Did we really sign contracts saying "I'll give you £200, you don't have to give me anything"?


----------



## kitschcamp

People do it all the time with all sorts of service contracts. Hell, I've had to sign one like that for a bloomin' estate agent.


----------



## ndunlavey

You signed an agreement with an estate agent that you would pay them but they didn't have to do anything?


----------



## kitschcamp

You don't find many estate agent contracts that specify them doing anything at all...


----------



## ndunlavey

I am clearly missing something here. What sort of contract is it you have with them? The only times I've used an etate agent 've had a contract that says "if we find a buyer for your house, you wll pay us x% of its value when the sale completes".


----------



## pixuk

browellm said:


> Why would you (seemingly) begrudge Tivo their £10/month, and yet you are happy to pay a lawyer to split hairs for you?


Who said I was paying? The unfortunate bit is admiting to having a mate who's a lawyer.

Aw gawd. He's going to read this, ain't he?


----------



## kitschcamp

ndunlavey said:


> The only times I've used an etate agent 've had a contract that says "if we find a buyer for your house, you wll pay us x% of its value when the sale completes".


yeah, but does it say they have to do anything to sell the house?


----------



## ndunlavey

My last two sale contracts specified what they would do in terms of adding it to their list, advertising in the window, etc.


----------



## GarySargent

And I thought this thread couldn't get even more off topic?!

Is it really worth the discussion?


----------



## DeadKenny

sanderton said:


> I take it you're not a lawyer! Precedent doesn't come into it; you can't get off a speeding ticket because the same policeman let someone else off with a warning the previous day.


Isn't speeding a criminal offence though, whereas copyright infringements are down to civil prosecutions?

I've argued with others about how making copies of DVDs is illegal in the UK because of copyright law and lack of "fair use" that exists in other countries, and the counter argument comes down to precedent, as in it's never been tested in court so it's not illegal. I'm dubious myself but then if it's down to a civil case (a company prosecuting an individual for example) then I guess that may be true.


----------



## Simon George

cwaring said:


> This is precisely what I _have_ been doing though that was mainly because I couldn't afford the LT sub as well as the Tivo at the time


Me too. I like my Tivo and I do not regret the money spent for one instant. Quite the opposite for that matter.

However time moves on, and now with HD emerging, if devices like TV Drive continue to be developed and Tivo (in the UK) does not then Tivo is a dead end.

But so what? Even if it were to be goodbye Tivo, (and I am nowhere near making that choice yet - I intend to run TV Drive and Tivo side by side for the moment, TV drive is too new) then it will still been worth every penny over the last few years.


----------



## pixuk

Ian, My lawyer mate thanks you for the gags, although (unsurprisingly) he's seen most of them before. 

So, here's his potted view of the situation:

Using an alternative provider for listings data is not theft. Theft is appropriating something belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it. That clearly isn't happening here, so it's not a criminal issue. If you own the Tivo box, then it's yours to do as you wish with. If your original contract included a promise by you not to hack the box, you could be in breach of contract at worse - a civil issue, not criminal. 

A contract sets up obligations limited to the parties to that contract. Only the parties to that contract can enforce a term in it, which may be questionable if the UK company has dissolved. Potentially the UK company may has assigned the contract to the US organisation, but that would be difficult to assertain unless it were tested in court. Getting to that point is potentially impossible without them visiting the homes of all users who no longer subscribe, so would be tantamount to unenforceable.

The subject of Reverse Engineering is irrelevant in this issue as (a) the technology to do this already exists on the Internet, so a user wouldn't actually be Reverse Engineering, and (b) UK Copyright & Design Right law allows for this where you are a licensed or authorised user for research or private study (ie, you obtained the product or code by legitimate means).

So, potentially the act of modifying the box in order to receive listings from an alternative provider is at worst a breach of contract, but without seeing a copy of that it would be impossible to check. It is also questionable whether that contract is still subsisting.


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> sanderton, no, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not convinced by your assertion that tinkering with a Tivo for your own personal use is a criminal offense, so I've asked my lawyer to take a look at this thread and I'll get back to you with his professional opinion.


I'll grant you it seems harsh, but reverse engineering software with the intention of defeating measures to protect copyright (and that's what hacking a TiVo involves) is against all kind of draconian new laws which havce sneaked in by the backdoor.


----------



## pixuk

sanderton said:


> I'll grant you it seems harsh, but reverse engineering software with the intention of defeating measures to protect copyright (and that's what hacking a TiVo involves) is against all kind of draconian new laws which havce sneaked in by the backdoor.


Hi sanderton,

Copyright protection is just that, the right of one person or organisation to make copies. In this instance, the effect of hacking a Tivo to use an alternative EPG is not to make a copy or pass on the intellectual property rights of Tivo Inc to anyone, it is not breaking any copyright. As mentioned above, at worst it is breach of contract.


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> The subject of Reverse Engineering is irrelevant in this issue as (a) the technology to do this already exists on the Internet, so a user wouldn't actually be Reverse Engineering, and (b) UK Copyright & Design Right law allows for this where you are a licensed or authorised user for research or private study (ie, you obtained the product or code by legitimate means).
> 
> .


Who does the original hacking and whether it is available on the net is irrelevant. To quote the EU Directive:



> 1. Member States shall provide adequate legal protection against the circumvention of any effective technological measures, which the person concerned carries out in the knowledge, or with reasonable grounds to know, that he or she is pursuing that objective.
> 
> ...
> 
> 3. For the purposes of this Directive, the expression "technological measures" means any technology, device or component that, in the normal course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts, in respect of works or other subject-matter, which are not authorised by the rightholder of any copyright or any right related to copyright as provided for by law or the sui generis right provided for in Chapter III of Directive 96/9/EC. Technological measures shall be deemed "effective" where the use of a protected work or other subject-matter is controlled by the rightholders through application of an access control or protection process, such as encryption, scrambling or other transformation of the work or other subject-matter or a copy control mechanism, which achieves the protection objective.


Like I said, the law has got a lot tougher, it's not a civil breach of copyright issue any more as soon as you do anything that defeats any protection mechanism. You don't need to make a copy or give it to anyone. This major change in the law has gone sadly unremarked on in most circles.

If you hack a TiVo to get free listings you are not undertaking research or private study.



> So, potentially the act of modifying the box in order to receive listings from an alternative provider is at worst a breach of contract, but without seeing a copy of that it would be impossible to check. It is also questionable whether that contract is still subsisting


The relevant bit of the service agreement is:



> programs to use or have full access to certain features of the TiVo Service. You received
> certain software with the purchase of the TiVo DVR and other software programs may be
> provided to you by TiVo from time to time, which you are obligated to accept. Your use
> of such software is subject to the terms of this Agreement. TiVo retains title to and
> ownership of all the TiVo software and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo
> DVR. TiVo also retains ownership of all TiVo copyrights and trademarks. In the case of
> third party software delivered by TiVo to the TiVo DVR, the applicable third party
> retains title to and ownership of its software, copyrights and trademarks. Any attempt to
> disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, *modify*, sublicense,
> distribute or *use for other purposes* either the DVR or software of this system is strictly
> prohibited, except as expressly set forth in Section 15 (Open Source Software).


I can see no reason why you wouldn't think it was still subsisting.


----------



## pixuk

Stuart,

Where we disagree is the interpretation of that EU directive. To me that is clearly stating that you cannot modify a copyrighted work with the intent of breaking its copy protection mechanism (something that is discussed here. The act of modifying the software in the Tivo to change its source of listings data does nothing to the copy protection mechanism, although I do accept that it breaks the terms of the contract you've quoted (thanks for that, by the way, I'd been looking for those).

The question mark over the continued subsistance of the contract is probably irrelevant, but only relates to whether the UK company still exists and/or whether they assigned the contract to the US company if they have dissolved.


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> Hi sanderton,
> 
> Copyright protection is just that, the right of one person or organisation to make copies. In this instance, the effect of hacking a Tivo to use an alternative EPG is not to make a copy or pass on the intellectual property rights of Tivo Inc to anyone, it is not breaking any copyright. As mentioned above, at worst it is breach of contract.


Our posts overlapped.

As I said, that sadly is just not true anymore. It _used_ to be if you didn't copy anything you weren't breaching copyright law, that is no longer the case. Defeating copy protection is an offence in itself, even if no copy is made.

Hacking a TiVo to take free listings is undoubtably modyfying a copyright piece of software, and that modification is definitely explicitly forbidden. I think the only arguable point would be whether the TiVo software was adequately protected for the act of hacking in a slice file (and preparing the Tivo to be able to do that) to qualify as defeating copy protection.

That would be one for the lawyers to battle over!

To be clear, the copyright at issue of the TiVo software's not the EPG data's.


----------



## pixuk

Ah, two intertwinned threads. At least it's spicing up my Thursday. 



sanderton said:


> Defeating copy protection is an offence in itself, even if no copy is made.


Where we differ on this is I don't believe any copy protection is being defeated, or is even vaguely involved. As you say, something that two rabid lawyers would no doubt have a lot of fun (and expensed lunches) discussing.


----------



## sanderton

It's certainly arguable either way on a series one machine. It's inarguable for series 2 machines, where heavy duty encryptrion got added.

While there's no actual encryption involved, getting sufficient access to add your own EPG data requires a fair amount of hacking around, so it would rest on whether that was sufficient to constitute "protection". It has, of course, never been tested.

Whatever, it's definitely breach of contract. It's definitely breach of copyright (you would have to create a derivative work from the TiVo software to do it), and it may be against the criminal law.

But yes, it's not "theft".


----------



## 10203

sanderton said:


> But yes, it's not "theft".


Given that we're splitting split hairs here, are you talking about defeating copy protection or rolling your own TiVo EPG data?


----------



## pixuk

sanderton said:


> Whatever, it's definitely breach of contract. It's definitely breach of copyright (you would have to create a derivative work from the TiVo software to do it), and it may be against the criminal law.


I agree it's a breach of contract, but I don't agree that it's a breach of copyright (the intent is not to break copy protection). It's therefore a civil matter, not criminal.


----------



## sanderton

pixuk said:


> I agree it's a breach of contract, but I don't agree that it's a breach of copyright (the intent is not to break copy protection). It's therefore a civil matter, not criminal.


Making a derivative work (the "hacked" TiVo software) out of a copyrighted work (The factory TiVo software) is breach of copyright. Not the new clause about defeating copy protection, just straightforward old fashioned copyright.


----------



## sanderton

LJ said:


> Given that we're splitting split hairs here, are you talking about defeating copy protection or rolling your own TiVo EPG data?


I agree with pixar that neither can be termed "theft", however illegal or immoral they may be.


----------



## pixuk

sanderton said:


> Making a derivative work (the "hacked" TiVo software) out of a copyrighted work (The factory TiVo software) is breach of copyright. Not the new clause about defeating copy protection, just straightforward old fashioned copyright.


We appear to be going around in circles on this one. I only infringe copyright if I make a copy of that original work (a derivative or otherwise) with the intent of passing it on to a third party. If I modify the original for my own purposes, no copyright infringement has taken place - notwithstanding the whole digital rights topic, which I agree gets rather murky, but does not apply here because the intent is not to break copy protection or remove an encryption scheme. That particular legislation is there to stop people creating hacks for things like DVDs which make it possible for others to copy copyrighted material, and does not cover original works just being modified. By the same token, if I bought a postcard showing a lovely view of Trafalgar Square, I do not by the rights to that image, but I am not a criminal if I write a message in the bottom corner saying "having a lovely time". I have modified the original work to which I don't own the copyright, but my intent is not to copy it or provide others with a method of breaking the copy protection on it.

It is a breach of contract, yes. It is not copyright infringement.


----------



## Raisltin Majere

pixuk said:


> Pixuk's Blue Gradient theme for TiVo Web.


Nice :up:


----------



## cwaring

Wrong thread


----------



## ndunlavey

The Premier League Darts this evening had some surprising results, I thought.


----------



## cwaring

I've just finished three 'challenges' in "Need For Speed: Most Wanted".


----------



## Raisltin Majere

cwaring said:


> Wrong thread


Why? I was reading this thread and saw it in his sig, thought I'd comment


----------



## Raisltin Majere

Ah, okay. Just seen the "proper" thread for it. Dunno how I missed that.


----------



## sfalvey

I guess I am just a nieve optimist. I still come back here every couple of weeks looking for that announcement that the new UK Tivo has been launched. 

Even though I do have a HiDef telly I cant seem myself giving sky a penny more than the 50 quid I give to them now. Paying extra to watch the programs I can already receive seems wrong somehow. When HD freeview comes along though well thats a different matter. 

With regard to ditching TiVo...... Yes certainly, as soon as either my TiVo dies, or I do. I don't see HD telly as a reason to stop using something that still suits my needs and is still the best at what it does 6 years after its launch.


----------



## cwaring

sfalvey said:


> With regard to ditching TiVo...... Yes certainly, as soon as either my TiVo dies, or I do.


Should we start a 'book' on which will go first?


----------



## Benet

Sold my TiVo about a month ago on eBay, and was happy to get just under £400 for it - fully modded with the ethernet card and 240GB of hard disk.

I got rid of all of my analogue TV equipment at the same time - the TV went to my son, and I have a digibox, a DVD player and a VHS recorder stacked in a corner, unusued.

The replacement is an EyeTV 400 from Elgato and a Mac with an Apple Cinema Display. The screen is much nicer than my old TV and we now have an all-digital system. Network streaming is built-in - all the stuff I had to modify the TiVo to do - and I can run the EyeTV software on any Mac in the house.

It's not as user-friendly as the TiVo; scheduling in advance works nicely, but pressing 'record' while watching a programme doesn't pick up the previous recording from the buffer - and doesn't stop at the end of the current show either. Instead, it records tor 3 hours!

EyeTV (version 2.1) gets very unstable when the disk is full, and there's no auto-management of disk space. I had to write an Applescript to automatically flush my hard drive of the oldest material every day - something Elgato need to work on.

There are some functions which simply can't be done using the supplied remote control - the 'stop recording?' dialog box demands a mouse to press the OK button, for instance - so you have to get off the sofa sometimes.

But the picture quality thing is amazing. Planet Earth (wildlife series) looks gobsmackingly fantastic. As a geek solution, I have no problem recommending EyeTV for picture quality - but it's not ready for sofa-time yet!

Benet


----------



## katman

I have had a TiVo for almost 4 years now and last November I got SKY+

Initially when I first got SKY+ I continued to use TiVo in parallel until I was confident that SKY+ would be as user friendly as TiVo.

I *WAS* looking forward to one of the promised benefits of SKY+, namely better picture quality because it records the raw bitstream.

Did I see an improvement.... NO. Picture actually got worse for most recordings because the majority of our viewing is BBC1 and C4 which TiVo was getting from Terrestrial Analogue and the low data rates on SKY+ actually show more artifacts than TiVo did.

I am now considering migrating *MY* prefered viewing BACK TO TIVO.

Why... because SKY+ is so user unfriendly and had let me down more in the last 5 months than TiVo has in 4 years. IIRC correctly, the only failed recordings on TiVo have been due to atmospheric interference rendering analogue TV unwatchable (happens about a dozen times a year) or the SKY box failing to change channel (cured by using an RF2link)

By comparison SKY+ has told me that it has recorded something but when trying to play it back nothing happens. After cycling the power it then tells me it failed.

Last friday I looked in the planner and saw it was due to record two programs that afternoon.

1 @ 13:30 for SWMBO
1 @ 14:25 for me.

... the problem with that.... the time was 14:10 and it wasnt recording SWMBO's program. Rebooted and got a partial on that and successfully saved my recording of Hill Street Blues from failure.

The EPG is a total farce. Why cant SKY use the Tivo style of channels listed down the left of the screen and then use the whole of the right hand side to list the programs on the highlighted channel. If there are lots of short programs on then all you get is boxes with three or four letters or worst still *"i"*. You then have to press Info to get the full title of the program and as I discovered last night, if it happens to be recording two programs you get "Synopsis not available when recording two programs"

The even bigger annoyance is the automatic DUMB padding which does stop you missing the end of some programs but has caused me to totally miss a program due to a conflict.

Recording 105 20:30 to 21:00
Recording 104 20:30 to 22:00

FAILED to record 105 21:00 to 21:30 becuase it was still recording THAT channel for the preceeding program.

As for "Series Link" it has totally gone berserk on "The Apprentice"

I recorded episode 1 on the Wednesday night and set Series link
It recorded episode 1 AGAIN on the following Tuesday and decided to get episode two the following tuesday.

I cancelled that and told it to record episode 2 on Wedneday with a series link.
It did the same thing again but I didnt realise so I am only getting episode 3 tonight 

SKY+ decided last night to do something totally illogical.

I turned on part way through a program on Nat Geo, watched it for a few minutes and decide it looked good so selected to record the repeat on Nat Geo +1 about 30 minutes later.

Noticed the record light was on and the planner told me it was recording the earlier showing that I had already missed the start of.

Tivo may be old and the hardware may not be the fastest in the world but it is definately the most family friendly device I have ever bought. When I first got it both my wife and my daughter (who was 4 or 5 at the time) could use it instantly, so much so that the suggestions list was full of soaps and cartoons.

I havent seen any of the Freeview PVR, but reception of Freeview where we are is "iffy" at times so Terrestrial + Sky is the only real choice we have.

Tivo still rocks  

Keith


----------



## scgf

Benet - I too use EyeTV on my iMac. It is indeed very slick and the picture quality is the best I have seen from Freeview.

I tend to use it where I know in advance I will want to make a DVD of a broadcast. I use Roxio Toast which interfaces with the EyeTV recordings list - in true Mac style you simply drag recorded programmes into the Toast Window and burn. You get a choice of menus and losts of flexibility. EyeTV has an edit option where you can easily cut out sections of a recording to make a clean start and end and to remove adverts etc. prior to burning. The finished DVDs are just superb.

Now if only EyeTV (or www.tvtv.co.uk) would add season passes and some of the other TiVo niceties we have become used to it would be perfect.


----------



## nathan

Benet said:


> <snip>But the picture quality thing is amazing. Planet Earth (wildlife series) looks gobsmackingly fantastic. As a geek solution, I have no problem recommending EyeTV for picture quality - but it's not ready for sofa-time yet!
> 
> Benet


Planet Earth may be the turning point for me, moving away from Tivo to XP MCE.

The quality of the picture was quite astonishing from a DVB-T tuner in the MCE machine, far far better than Tivo.


----------



## B33K34

nathan said:


> Planet Earth may be the turning point for me, moving away from Tivo to XP MCE.
> 
> The quality of the picture was quite astonishing from a DVB-T tuner in the MCE machine, far far better than Tivo.


but not much TV looks that good and you can buy it/rent it on DVD for a lot less than the cost of a MCE PC!

I'm impressed by mode0/high bitrate recordings on Tivo. Noticably better than 'best' even on my 32" Sony.


----------



## nathan

B33K34 said:


> but not much TV looks that good and you can buy it/rent it on DVD for a lot less than the cost of a MCE PC!
> 
> I'm impressed by mode0/high bitrate recordings on Tivo. Noticably better than 'best' even on my 32" Sony.


Your first point is true enough, though I always have a project on the go at home and currently it's MCE.

I've toyed around with mode 0, will have to do some proper work on it before I pass final judgement and jump ship.


----------



## Sneals2000

B33K34 said:


> but not much TV looks that good and you can buy it/rent it on DVD for a lot less than the cost of a MCE PC!
> 
> I'm impressed by mode0/high bitrate recordings on Tivo. Noticably better than 'best' even on my 32" Sony.


Freeview into my Tivo hacked with 720x576 Mode 0 Best on my 28" Sony 16:9 set is noticably poorer than Freeview via my MCE PC fed RGB SCART (using the Radeon + VGA 1024x576/50i mode and a VGA to RGB cable) The additional MPEG2 code/decode that the Tivo adds is significantly noticable as a quality loss.

The ability to burn a lossless DVD (i.e. the exact broadcast video) from the MCE recording is a bonus.


----------



## scgf

I don't find the mode 0 signal degrades the image much. I have tweaked my TiVo so that when I do an A/B comparison between the feed directly from my Freeview box and the feed through the TiVo I can see little difference. In fact although I think I can see a very small difference, I get lost flicking between the two signals and if I stop and try to identify which picture I am watching I really can't do it.

I am watching on a Hitachi 42" plasma monitor - and I am very keen on quality. Not only have I set up mode 0 but I have also applied the other hacks to reduce contrast etc.. I use RGB throughout and good quality cables.


----------



## [email protected]

Thinking of looking for 2nd TiVo after reading this thread. Is the EPG support likely to continue?


----------



## cwaring

In a word, yes. Tivo have categorically stated that EPG support will continue for its UK customers. Of course, the nay-sayers will now tell you that they did not say for how long and that it could be withdrawn at any time


----------



## eric23

they did not say for how long and that it could be withdrawn at any time


----------



## iankb

Hi, nay-sayer.


----------



## Automan

At http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=8614 it says the BBC are starting a one year trial of HD.

I also was given a copy of a possible sky installers training presentation which warns that some tv's may not be up to it or will have a big lag changing from a HD to non HD channel.

Also to avoid where possible installing the LNB which can handle four Sky HD + boxes.

Two cooling fans, SATA, Ethernet and USB2 connections....

The future is loooking bright for Sky 

Automan.


----------



## Tivo_noob

Hi Eric, do you work for S** by any chance?


----------



## eric23

Yes, my real name is James Murdoch.

No, seriously, I have nothing to do with Sky!  I resent having to pay even more to the Murdoch empire. I wish they didn't have a monopoly on the developing UK PVR market. TiVo Inc used to be the corporation that excited me when they rolled out new features every so often. They no longer do that in the UK, unfortunately. There's not much excitement to be had over new IR codes!

I have invested a lot of time and effort into my TiVo, having upgraded the drives and more recently a cachecard. I love TiVo. I'm sad to see the UK service where it is, stuck in the mud, going nowhere.


----------



## iSteve

eric23 said:


> I'm sad to see the UK service where it is, stuck in the mud, going nowhere.


For me, this one sentence hits the nail on the head.

I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I got TiVo was partly for it's usefulness, but also so I could be at the 'cutting edge' of new technology. If I see a new gizmo or piece of tech come out which can improve the way I do things, then I want it. But I also expect it to be upgraded from time to time, and be able to get new, up-to-date versions.

If not, I'll be looking to be able to get a similar product from a competitor instead. And here is the problem.

As it happens, there are only two 'real' choices in the PVR field - TiVo, and Sky+. My problem is that I don't feel Sky+ 'deserves' to be in prime position as it was not the most technically sophisticated offering. It's catching up but it started life as Sky's cheap TiVo imitation, full of holes. But I also resent giving any of my money over to Mr Murdoch. I don't like monopolies; never have.

Where does that leave my options? Stay stagnant with TiVo - or betray my principles and invest in the less-deserving technology by getting a Sky+ box.

As it happens, I am moving back into my parent's pad temporarily, and as they already have a TiVo, we'll be putting our own into 'retirement'. I've got myself an Elgato EyeTV unit instead as it offers many of the features I love about TiVo, and some which I don't currently enjoy (100% lossless encoding, 100% channel change success rate, easy to encode direct to DVD from hard disk thru Toast). It's also being regularly updated and I expect new and exciting features to be added as time goes on. All this for less than I paid for my TiVo (EyeTV 310 for £105, plus £15/yr for TV Guide sub).

For me and I suspect many others, having an advanced piece of tech like TiVo is great, but it's impossible to stay 'current' as it's never updated, and that's forcing cutting edge types like me to look elsewhere for our hi-tech toys that are 'current' and being updated, even if they miss some of the features we're used to.

It's got to the stage if you want 'new features', TiVo isn't an option, unless you're prepared for serious hacking and are prepared for any unfortunate consequences from this.


----------



## ndunlavey

> so I could be at the 'cutting edge' of new technology


How odd.


----------



## eric23

Not odd, just maybe different from you! There is a reason why almost all mens magazines are either about **** or gadgets.


----------



## eric23

Not that **** are of any use to me, of course.


----------



## eric23

I just said that to get a cheap laugh and an 100th post!!!!!!! Wow, do I get promoted?


----------



## eric23

Evidently not.


----------



## kb7oeb

How are HD connections done in the UK, is it different than in the US?

I currently run a linux box with Mythtv and two ATSC tuner cards, the linux system sees them as DVB cards and from what I have read the major difference between ATSC and DVB is the modulation used. I wonder how much work it would take to get a Series 3 running in the UK?


----------



## mista_c

Sneals2000 said:


> Freeview into my Tivo hacked with 720x576 Mode 0 Best on my 28" Sony 16:9 set is noticably poorer than Freeview via my MCE PC fed RGB SCART (using the Radeon + VGA 1024x576/50i mode and a VGA to RGB cable) The additional MPEG2 code/decode that the Tivo adds is significantly noticable as a quality loss.
> 
> The ability to burn a lossless DVD (i.e. the exact broadcast video) from the MCE recording is a bonus.


Does MCE record the exact bitstream? I thought that it used microsoft's own DVR-MS format and wasn't sure whether this involved re-coding/degrading the signal in any way.


----------



## davisa

*Who else is ready to jump?*

Not me. Why? Well, I don't see anything to jump on to?

Sky+ - a non starter as it only works with Sky. My apartment lease strictly forbids a satellite dish.

TV Drive. - Possible but seems to lack some basic must-have features. Why trade down, especially when they choose to charge current customers for installation and tie you in to a year's contract.

Freeview DVR's - Again, massive lack of features. I have also yet to see a freeview picture that doesn't break-up every time the boiler or fridge switches on/off.

Elgato EyeTV. Like the sound of this, but it really is a 'techie' solution and not one for the Wife. Possible in addition to TiVo but not as a replacement. I do have a Neuston MC500 (similar to EyeHome) which I use to spool downloaded HD content 

Microsoft Media Edition - hyper expensive. I also don't know if I would trust Windows to run my TV viewing life - sorry but that's how I feel.

So, jump ship? ...and drown?


----------



## Sneals2000

davisa said:


> *Who else is ready to jump?*
> Freeview DVR's - Again, massive lack of features. I have also yet to see a freeview picture that doesn't break-up every time the boiler or fridge switches on/off.


I've had Freeview for over 5 years. I have a boiler. I have a fridge. I have never had a picture break-up. My Pace DTVA doesn't register uncorrected or corrected errors on its signal strength page. When I processed PC recordings of DVB-T for errors, I never got any reported errors.

I live on the borders of the Crystal Palace region, and have a decent roof-top aerial, which was installed for analogue and works perfectly for digital.

Of course YMMV.

I built my own MCE dual-tuner DVB-T DVR - with an RGB SCART connection to my TV. Picture quality is better than Tivo by a long chalk, and DVD recordings are lossless compared to the original broadcast - not something that can be said for Tivo connected to DVD Recorder (or even used in a manner we can't discuss here)

MCE is not perfect - the Tivo UI is probably friendlier. However it does come a close second, and the other functionality - like streaming to an XBox 360, playing a large library of MP3 files, replay of DVDs etc. is significantly useful.

I would say that my Tivo connected to Sky is a great solution for recording Sky channels - but anything that is on Freeview I record in MCE - as the quality is just so much better.

(I have a 720x576 Mode 0 Tivo with the RGB hack - so have taken Tivo about as far as it can go in the quality stakes. The basic problem is the addition of an additional MPEG2 encode/decode process, and quite an old, crude one at that)


----------



## Sneals2000

mista_c said:


> Does MCE record the exact bitstream? I thought that it used microsoft's own DVR-MS format and wasn't sure whether this involved re-coding/degrading the signal in any way.


Yes - MCE losslessly records the exact bit-stream if used with DVB-T cards (or ATSC cards in the US). The DVR-MS file format is a wrapper for this, which adds some MetaData and some DRM.

MCE requires that it is fed a pre-compressed MPEG2 stream - it does no compression itself. This can be either MPEG2 compressed by the broadcaster (as is the case with digital TV) or MPEG2 produced by an analogue capture card with an on-board MPEG2 compression hardware.

The lack of compression within MCE is a real boon - as it means recordings require little of the CPU - so if you are using your MCE for other things (I don't but I know others use them as desktops) you don't notice a major performance hit (or quality drop on recordings)

This is why MCE doesn't work with basic analogue capture systems without on-board hardware, including, sadly, the SDI and RGB input versions of the Sweetspot.


----------



## Sneals2000

kb7oeb said:


> How are HD connections done in the UK, is it different than in the US?
> 
> I currently run a linux box with Mythtv and two ATSC tuner cards, the linux system sees them as DVB cards and from what I have read the major difference between ATSC and DVB is the modulation used. I wonder how much work it would take to get a Series 3 running in the UK?


The UK (and Europe) will be MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for most HD broadcasts. Initially UK HD will be limited to satellite (probably DVB-S2 - though PC cards for this have been announced) and cable, with OTA Digital (using DVB-T) is likely to be limited to the BBC trial in the London area only for quite a while.

One of the main differences between ATSC and DVB-T is the way "channel numbers" are handled I believe - so any modification of a Tivo Series 3 is likely toe be difficult, even for our SD DVB-T broadcasts (which would still be a useful improvement)


----------



## Sneals2000

scgf said:


> I don't find the mode 0 signal degrades the image much. I have tweaked my TiVo so that when I do an A/B comparison between the feed directly from my Freeview box and the feed through the TiVo I can see little difference. In fact although I think I can see a very small difference, I get lost flicking between the two signals and if I stop and try to identify which picture I am watching I really can't do it.
> 
> I am watching on a Hitachi 42" plasma monitor - and I am very keen on quality. Not only have I set up mode 0 but I have also applied the other hacks to reduce contrast etc.. I use RGB throughout and good quality cables.


I've done all the hacks, and still find it VERY easy to detect the Tivo in circuit in Live TV compared to the Tivo in bypass. The additional compression artefacts are all too visible.

I'm watching on a 50Hz 16:9 28" Sony WEGA - which is a pretty clean display and adds very few artefacts of its own. It doesn't overly emphasise MPEG2 artefacts either though.


----------



## Pugwash

The TiVo is only a small part of my viewing habits now. It sits quietly picking up UK broadcasts reliably I guess. If it misses something, I download it from UKNova and stream it from the Pentium4 server in the hallway through XBMC on an old chipped xbox. I get most of the US TV this way too, so I don't have to wait so long for Sky One to catch up. I have a stupid amount of hard drive storage on my home network (like 2TB), 20% work and about 70% TV!

I suspect I'll jump ship as soon as someone writes an open-source solution that works as reliably as TiVo.


----------



## davisa

Sneals2000 said:


> I live on the borders of the Crystal Palace region, and have a decent roof-top aerial, which was installed for analogue and works perfectly for digital.


That I think is the problem.

For myself and many like me who live is a flat there is no option to get a separate aerial. Our communal one was 'upgraded' for digital but I think the signal path is just too dirty (last in the line of 16 flats) for 'clean' Freeview reception. Of course, the management agency cannot see what the problem is. I have tried various set-top aerials and boosters but all these solutions give me picture freezes and break-ups on cars driving past or my boiler/fridge switching on. Not being allowed a satellite dish means that cable is my only choice for multi-channel TV. That means TVDrive or Tivo, and TiVo is clearly the better choice for me.

Edited to add: Like Pugwash, TiVo just sits there and reliably records my fill of UK television. This is becoming less and less important so I don't see the need to change it. Everything else is obtained via bittorrent and streamed to a Neuston box from my Mac. When someone finally brings out a legal way to do this they've got my business.


----------



## Sneals2000

Pugwash said:


> The TiVo is only a small part of my viewing habits now. It sits quietly picking up UK broadcasts reliably I guess. If it misses something, I download it from UKNova and stream it from the Pentium4 server in the hallway through XBMC on an old chipped xbox. I get most of the US TV this way too, so I don't have to wait so long for Sky One to catch up. I have a stupid amount of hard drive storage on my home network (like 2TB), 20% work and about 70% TV!
> 
> I suspect I'll jump ship as soon as someone writes an open-source solution that works as reliably as TiVo.


I guess the problem for me with the torrent solution is that the picture quality is usually sub-SD. Not horrendous - but far from broadcast quality. I know some US series are captured from their HD broadcasts - but AIUI they are usually massively downscaled - to less than 1024x576/720x576 resolution when encoded in Divx etc.

If I could download decent quality full-SD, or ideally HD, broadcasts legally I would. I would probably even pay a small subscription to do so. With 8Mbs broadband with a minimal cap it would probably be reasonably functional - especially if downloads could be scheduled.

As it is, most of the legal and illegal download solutions are poorer quality than broadcasts, so don't really offer a solution for me.

(I know there ARE ways of downloading off-air HD MPEG2 captures of US material - but they are not straightforward - and far from legal)


----------



## Sneals2000

davisa said:


> That I think is the problem.
> 
> For myself and many like me who live is a flat there is no option to get a separate aerial. Our communal one was 'upgraded' for digital but I think the signal path is just too dirty (last in the line of 16 flats) for 'clean' Freeview reception. Of course, the management agency cannot see what the problem is. I have tried various set-top aerials and boosters but all these solutions give me picture freezes and break-ups on cars driving past or my boiler/fridge switching on. Not being allowed a satellite dish means that cable is my only choice for multi-channel TV. That means TVDrive or Tivo, and TiVo is clearly the better choice for me.
> 
> Edited to add: Like Pugwash, TiVo just sits there and reliably records my fill of UK television. This is becoming less and less important so I don't see the need to change it. Everything else is obtained via bittorrent and streamed to a Neuston box from my Mac. When someone finally brings out a legal way to do this they've got my business.


Yep - I feel your pain when it comes to shared aerials - especially if other residents aren't concerned. I lived in a brand-new flat served by a community aerial in 1997 for 6 months. The analogue picture was absolutely unwatchable - covered in multi-path and interference. I tracked down the distribution system in the meter cupboard in the communal hallway. I've never seen such a poor system - it was just distribution amps daisy chained into each other - they weren't even cascaded. If you were at the end of the daisy chain your signal had been through about 6 boosters. Appalling engineering.

If I'd been likely to live there for longer I'd have probably lobbied to get it improved - or offered to do it myself...

When it comes to downloads - I wish people would post them in native resolution - or at least scale HD material just as far as SD, and not lower than this. All of the download systems - legal and illegal P2P - seem to distribute at significantly lower resolution than 720x576/1024x576/768x576 (SD native non-square, 16:9 and 4:3 square pixel) which I find pretty unacceptable.


----------



## Pugwash

I find the 45-minutes episodes of 700MB in XviD/MP3/5.1 are of equal quality to DVD (960x544 sometimes). I'm watching through a 36" 100Hz Philips TV and Yamaha 5.1 amp, RGB picture connection and optical audio. Sound sync sometimes goes wrong but that's whan the delay slider is for on XBMC 
The trick is to buy a cheap server machine on eBay, slap a few cheap large capacity hard drives in it and leave it downloading 24/7. It might take it a day to download an episode sometimes, but I'm still watching CSI Season 6, episode 17 about 6 weeks before it clashes with my girlfriend's trash TV on Sky.


----------



## mista_c

Sneals2000 said:


> Yes - MCE losslessly records the exact bit-stream if used with DVB-T cards (or ATSC cards in the US). The DVR-MS file format is a wrapper for this, which adds some MetaData and some DRM.


Great! I think I am pretty much convinced to jump ship then. Somebody on a well known UK torrent site (offering non commercially available programmes only) has recently torrented a direct freeview bitstream of the BBC's Planet Earth, and the quality is fantastic. Of course, this is due to being made in HD, but if the BBC (and others) increase the amount of programming they make in HD, then I think I will be more than happy viewing SD freeview via mce. (I am too anti murdoch to ever get sky-HD).

Note that I viewed this Planet Earth file on a networked Snazio 1350 player, which I think may have upscaled the content up to 720p. So whilst not entirely indicative of what I can expect from mce, the quality should (in theory) be the same if I were to archive the DVR-MS files to DVD and later watch on the Snazio.

Regardless, I'll be keeping the Tivo as part of my set up


----------



## Sneals2000

Pugwash said:


> I find the 45-minutes episodes of 700MB in XviD/MP3/5.1 are of equal quality to DVD (960x544 sometimes). I'm watching through a 36" 100Hz Philips TV and Yamaha 5.1 amp, RGB picture connection and optical audio. Sound sync sometimes goes wrong but that's whan the delay slider is for on XBMC
> The trick is to buy a cheap server machine on eBay, slap a few cheap large capacity hard drives in it and leave it downloading 24/7. It might take it a day to download an episode sometimes, but I'm still watching CSI Season 6, episode 17 about 6 weeks before it clashes with my girlfriend's trash TV on Sky.


I had an XBMC connected RGB to my Sony 28" 50Hz set (can't watch 100Hz displays) - and whilst it was a good Divx viewing solution (it sucks at 50i MPEG2 - it deinterlaces to 25p - not even 50p - and then re-interlaces to 50i so bye bye smooth motion on video sources...)

I found that although the Divx stuff was OK (especially if you ran the 24p material at 25p) - the quality of 700Mb or so downloads was still only so-so. When compared to off-air MPEG2 via DVB-T it is a different ball game.

Sure - if series are not broadcast in the UK - then I can see the attraction - however I'd rather wait and watch most US stuff in quality than get ahead and download an inferior quality copy. However I DO see the advantage in being able to download shows you've missed!

(I have seen some HD MPEG2 off-air recordings of shows from the US - which have been downloaded via methods other than P2P. The quality is stunning - but the files are much larger than 700Mb - as you would expect for 1920x1080 or 1280x720 10-16Mbs broadcasts)

I should also add that I spend all day dealing with broadcast video - and so am probably a bit over-sensitive when it comes to PQ.


----------



## kb7oeb

Sneals2000 said:


> The UK (and Europe) will be MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 for most HD broadcasts. Initially UK HD will be limited to satellite (probably DVB-S2 - though PC cards for this have been announced) and cable, with OTA Digital (using DVB-T) is likely to be limited to the BBC trial in the London area only for quite a while.
> 
> One of the main differences between ATSC and DVB-T is the way "channel numbers" are handled I believe - so any modification of a Tivo Series 3 is likely toe be difficult, even for our SD DVB-T broadcasts (which would still be a useful improvement)


Interesting, about a year ago the FCC required that tv stations use certain PIDs because they conflicted with reserved PIDs on DVB systems. Are you talking about the virtual channel numbers or something else?

I was curious if your HDTVs have HDMI and/or component that is comatible with the US versions. Its said the series 3 supports mpeg4 so it might not be much of a jump to support at least cable.

I wish we had an open satellite format here in the US like you have with DVB-S


----------



## iSteve

kb7oeb said:


> I wish we had an open satellite format here in the US like you have with DVB-S


Unfortunately it's not as open as it could be, though.

All Sky PayTV channels for example, are encrypted with a proprietary encryption format, and only licensed Sky digiboxes are able to decrypt them. This is a problem for me as an EyeTV user as although the EyeTV units can decrypt PayTV channels with a suitable Conditional Access Module through it's Common Interface slot, Sky do not produce and will never (voluntarily) produce an appropriate CAM+CI package to allow legitimate subscribers to Sky to watch their PayTV channels.

Unfortunately this also affects Channel 4 and Channel 5 broadcast via sat, which are 'free-to-view' and supposedly 'public' TV channels, but tied down to an old encryption contract with Sky which prevents them being received 'in-the-clear' except via a valid Sky viewing card.

Unfortunately cable has this problem too, in that although they use the DVB-C standard here, the encryption used by our cable operators is also proprietary and only available in the licensed Pace digiboxes from the cable company, and not as a separate CAM+CI, so you can only play with the 'unencrypted' channels you may receive.

'Freeview' on the other hand, uses DVB-T technology WITH an open CAM+CI encryption (Top Up TV) system, so it is possible to pay for these channels, and watch them on whatever technology you choose to buy.

An open CI/CAM market in the UK would be *really* helpful in enabling an open and competitive Personal/Digital Video Player market here in the UK. (That's incidentally why there are so many Freeview DVR options and so few cable/satellite ones.)

Government regulation here could open up this market and allow for a more competitive DVR/PVR industry, but our government here appears to be held hostage to the media interests of a certain Mr Murdoch and I very much doubt they'd want to incur the wrath of his media empire by introducing such a consumer-friendly change in the law.


----------



## kb7oeb

Interesting, it sounds like its about the same situation then. The funny thing is Dish Network is having a big problem with hackers using hacked FTA DVB receivers to illegally receive their programing but they don't allow legitimate subscribers to use the same equipment. They even sell their own FTA DVB receivers under the Echostar brand name. The FCC here has finally started putting pressure on the cable companies to open up, they now require they offer cable cards and cable boxes with FireWire 1394 outputs. The cable card is what will allow the Series 3 to directly record encrypted cable channels, no cable box required. Unfortunately they haven't required satellite to open up at all.


Sorry to steer your thread off topic  Maybe I can steer it back a little. I think Tivo really dropped the ball in its home market, they have been very slow to adapt to the shift to digital. They bet heavily on their relationship with DirectTV only to have DirecTV switch to their own DVR after NewsCorp bought them out. Even on the main tivo.com website they have been targeting people who don't want to upgrade from analog cable. If they are too cheap to buy digital cable they are probably too cheap to buy a tivo. Many of the high end customers they cater too have left to the new mpeg4 satellite DVRs or to the cable company HD DVR. I think the series 3 might be too little too late and unless they give the box away (and I doubt it) most people will rent the cable company DVR for around the same cost as the tivo service fee (for HD, less for SD). The series 3 should have been ready to ship the day the cable card requirement kicked in back in 2004.


----------



## Sneals2000

iSteve said:


> Unfortunately it's not as open as it could be, though.
> 
> All Sky PayTV channels for example, are encrypted with a proprietary encryption format, and only licensed Sky digiboxes are able to decrypt them. This is a problem for me as an EyeTV user as although the EyeTV units can decrypt PayTV channels with a suitable Conditional Access Module through it's Common Interface slot, Sky do not produce and will never (voluntarily) produce an appropriate CAM+CI package to allow legitimate subscribers to Sky to watch their PayTV channels.
> 
> Unfortunately this also affects Channel 4 and Channel 5 broadcast via sat, which are 'free-to-view' and supposedly 'public' TV channels, but tied down to an old encryption contract with Sky which prevents them being received 'in-the-clear' except via a valid Sky viewing card.
> 
> Unfortunately cable has this problem too, in that although they use the DVB-C standard here, the encryption used by our cable operators is also proprietary and only available in the licensed Pace digiboxes from the cable company, and not as a separate CAM+CI, so you can only play with the 'unencrypted' channels you may receive.
> 
> 'Freeview' on the other hand, uses DVB-T technology WITH an open CAM+CI encryption (Top Up TV) system, so it is possible to pay for these channels, and watch them on whatever technology you choose to buy.
> 
> An open CI/CAM market in the UK would be *really* helpful in enabling an open and competitive Personal/Digital Video Player market here in the UK. (That's incidentally why there are so many Freeview DVR options and so few cable/satellite ones.)
> 
> Government regulation here could open up this market and allow for a more competitive DVR/PVR industry, but our government here appears to be held hostage to the media interests of a certain Mr Murdoch and I very much doubt they'd want to incur the wrath of his media empire by introducing such a consumer-friendly change in the law.


There IS a CAM that allows a valid Sky subscription card to be used with a CI slot based non-Sky receiver, emulating a VideoGuard CAM. It is being used to allow Sky (including FTV channels) viewing in Dreamboxes, and with PC CI based DVB-S cards. (You can apparently get Windows Media Center to work with it now that Technotrend have produced DVB-S card drivers that spoof MCE into thinking they are DVB-T drivers!)

The device in question is called a DRAGON or T.REX CAM I believe - I have no experience of it myself - and there is no guarantee it will continue to work. (You have to program your Sky receiver serial number into the CAM I believe to retain the card marriage element)

However it has been working for quite a while - and it isn't losing Sky any revenue as it isn't allowing service theft - as you still require a valid Sky subscription.


----------



## Sneals2000

kb7oeb said:


> Interesting, about a year ago the FCC required that tv stations use certain PIDs because they conflicted with reserved PIDs on DVB systems. Are you talking about the virtual channel numbers or something else?
> 
> I was curious if your HDTVs have HDMI and/or component that is comatible with the US versions. Its said the series 3 supports mpeg4 so it might not be much of a jump to support at least cable.
> 
> I wish we had an open satellite format here in the US like you have with DVB-S


All HD TVs sold with the "HD Ready" logo on them have to support HDCP connection - either via DVI or HDMI. (DVI without HDCP doesn't count) "HD Ready" is the European official HDTV display logo - if you buy a display with this logo you can be pretty sure it will work with all HD receivers and HD-DVD/BluRay players. It also mandates a minimum vertical resolution of 720 lines, and 1080i/720p input compatibility at 50 and 60Hz.

The channel numbering I was talking about was the LCN (Logical Channel Numbering) scheme that allows networks to appear on the same "Channel Number" all over the UK (so BBC One is always channel 1, BBC Two channel 2, ITV1 channel 3 etc.) irrespective of the RF channel it is broadcast on.

The DVB-T broadcasts carry both an LCN (i.e. channel number) and a text ID (BBC ONE) for each service. (Each channel also carries EiT information for 7 days of listings for all channels being broadcast - to allow for a decent free EPG. Whatever channel you are watching, you get full EPG data for all the other UK channels)

Additionally we have a situation where services (what we call "channels") time-share the same video and audio PIDs, with the DVB service table altering the "channel" to PID mappings.

This allows "BBC Three" (LCN channel 7) and "CBBC" (LCN channel 30) to share the same video and audio streams (with the same PIDs) as the two services switch over between 1855 and 1900 every night. This allows a single video and audio stream to carry two services at different times, and correctly occupy different positions in the DVB-T / Freeview EPG. (30-35 are Kids channels, 80-83 are News channels etc.)


----------



## hokkers999

davisa said:


> *Who else is ready to jump?*
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Elgato EyeTV. Like the sound of this, but it really is a 'techie' solution and not one for the Wife. Possible in addition to TiVo but not as a replacement. I do have a Neuston MC500 (similar to EyeHome) which I use to spool downloaded HD content
> 
> [snip]


Sounds nice, pity then that it's MAC only which I suspect excuses about 98% of the people who are reading this.


----------



## Sneals2000

hokkers999 said:


> Sounds nice, pity then that it's MAC only which I suspect excuses about 98% of the people who are reading this.


Some of the Elgato stuff is also available - with different branding - for PCs. Some of the Firewire Elgato stuff is sold as Fire TV in the PC world I think, and the small DTT USB2 box is a Terratec device.

Unfortunately the Elgato/Fire TV stuff differ in internal firmware so can't be used on both platforms - but the Terratec stuff works on both. (I've used the same box on both a PC under MCE and a Mac under OS X)


----------



## iSteve

Sneals2000 said:


> There IS a CAM that allows a valid Sky subscription card to be used with a CI slot .. The device in question is called a DRAGON or T.REX CAM I believe -


You're right, I've heard of this and looked into this, however it is a none-the-less completely unofficial route, something of a hack, and I'm sure it would be considered illegal by Sky (unauthorised circumvention of encryption would probably also violate the DMCA, although I'm not sure it would enforceable here in Europe or whether we have similar laws either now or in the statute books. Also I'm no lawyer so I couldn't say who would be held liable for this - the CAM manufacturers, the card programmers, the end user, or if it'd fall between the cracks.)

Certainly it's the case, I'm sure, that Sky would prefer to retain 100% control of the encryption/decryption cycle, to retain their control over the UK satellite digibox market and therefore the PVR market.

If Sky is not taking action against breaking the Dragon CAMs from working it is either because the effort required to break them outweighs the benefit, or they're not concerned as no mass market product is based on it. But I'm sure it's not because they're happy with the CAMs being available and used, as I'm sure they're not. I'm certain they'd action to stop any mass market product e.g. a PVR being released which is based on it, or alter the encryption to break it. This is also why I'd be reluctant to put good money down on such a CAM.

The only long-term solution would seem to be to enforce a customer's right to receive a legally-purchased PayTV subscription through whatever technology the consumer legally owns. This would open up the market to more PVR offerings and the competition would be good for the end users like you and me. Though I'm sceptical that'd ever happen.


----------



## Sneals2000

iSteve said:


> You're right, I've heard of this and looked into this, however it is a none-the-less completely unofficial route, something of a hack, and I'm sure it would be considered illegal by Sky (unauthorised circumvention of encryption would probably also violate the DMCA, although I'm not sure it would enforceable here in Europe or whether we have similar laws either now or in the statute books. Also I'm no lawyer so I couldn't say who would be held liable for this - the CAM manufacturers, the card programmers, the end user, or if it'd fall between the cracks.)
> 
> Certainly it's the case, I'm sure, that Sky would prefer to retain 100% control of the encryption/decryption cycle, to retain their control over the UK satellite digibox market and therefore the PVR market.
> 
> If Sky is not taking action against breaking the Dragon CAMs from working it is either because the effort required to break them outweighs the benefit, or they're not concerned as no mass market product is based on it. But I'm sure it's not because they're happy with the CAMs being available and used, as I'm sure they're not. I'm certain they'd action to stop any mass market product e.g. a PVR being released which is based on it, or alter the encryption to break it. This is also why I'd be reluctant to put good money down on such a CAM.
> 
> The only long-term solution would seem to be to enforce a customer's right to receive a legally-purchased PayTV subscription through whatever technology the consumer legally owns. This would open up the market to more PVR offerings and the competition would be good for the end users like you and me. Though I'm sceptical that'd ever happen.


Yep - I'm sure NDS (rather than Sky) aren't happy that VideoGuard CAMs can be emulated by third party hardware - just as other CAMs can be. However I suspect the incentive to take legal action is less strong than if the systems were being used for service theft.

You still need to own an official NDS CAM for this solution to work (as you have to have a Sky receiver with serial number to marry your card to, and can only marry one to one) so they can't argue they are losing sales of CAMs.

I accept what you say - and wouldn't be surprised to see action taken - but it is a very useful solution for those who want to watch using gear other than Sky receivers - especially those with motorised or multi-satellite installations.


----------



## B33K34

I'm really puzzled why anyone would switch from using Tivo to downloading all of their viewing - sure it works but it sounds like a lot more effort. I've a PC linked up to my viewing screens and for me it just doesn't cut it. 

Tivo still does exactly what i got it to do - it sits there and records every thing i want to watch with the minimum of effort - a few minutes creating a couple of new season passes and deleting old ones is about it. Tivoweb makes it quick to set recordings while i'm at work or from the home PC's. The idea that i should replace it with something else just because it's 5 years old is a joke i presume? 

there's little TV that doesn't get shown in the Uk eventually and a DVD rental service is a good way to catch up on some of that in perfect quality (or pick up things like deadwood that are only on subscription channels). 

the picture quality is a compromise but it doesn't bother me - it's better than the divx i've seen.


----------



## Sneals2000

B33K34 said:


> I'm really puzzled why anyone would switch from using Tivo to downloading all of their viewing - sure it works but it sounds like a lot more effort. I've a PC linked up to my viewing screens and for me it just doesn't cut it.
> 
> Tivo still does exactly what i got it to do - it sits there and records every thing i want to watch with the minimum of effort - a few minutes creating a couple of new season passes and deleting old ones is about it. Tivoweb makes it quick to set recordings while i'm at work or from the home PC's. The idea that i should replace it with something else just because it's 5 years old is a joke i presume?
> 
> there's little TV that doesn't get shown in the Uk eventually and a DVD rental service is a good way to catch up on some of that in perfect quality (or pick up things like deadwood that are only on subscription channels).
> 
> the picture quality is a compromise but it doesn't bother me - it's better than the divx i've seen.


Yep - though if you have a fast enough broadband connection it is possible to download 1080i and 720p HD off-air captures of US series - with no compression other than that used for broadcast. These are significantly higher quality than the 576i broadcasts we get in the UK - though you need a fast broadband connection, a very large hard drive, and also you are probably technically breaking quite a few laws...

Similarly some European broadcasts are available as DVB-T/-S off-air captures in "as broadcast" quality format.

Both of these sources are better quality than Tivo recordings - though far from convenient.

There is also software for (mainly) Divx downloading via P2P that will look for the latest episodes of favourite series and automatically download them... This makes it almost as easy as Tivo.

I'm not advocating these methods - I use Tivo and MCE for my viewing. (MCE has the quality edge for Freeview broadcasts, but Tivo is still the best solution for quality recording of Sky channels)


----------



## frogster

kb7oeb said:


> Unfortunately they haven't required satellite to open up at all.


Satellite = Murdoch, both in the UK and in the States.

Can anyone remember the last time that any official body of either country did anything to upset him? I can't.


----------



## Sneals2000

frogster said:


> Satellite = Murdoch, both in the UK and in the States.
> 
> Can anyone remember the last time that any official body of either country did anything to upset him? I can't.


Only thing I can really remember was forcing Sky to allow their channels to be carried on ONDigital (once Sky pulled out as consortium members prior to launch) and cable at a reasonable rate...


----------



## terryeden

B33K34 said:


> I'm really puzzled why anyone would switch from using Tivo to downloading all of their viewing - sure it works but it sounds like a lot more effort. I've a PC linked up to my viewing screens and for me it just doesn't cut it.


I use Xbmc, so anything that's download is FTP'd straight onto there. Nice Scart or Component connection. Interface as easy for playback as TiVo's

The most useful feature for me is being able to string the episodes together. So when I hit play I get ep1 then 2 then 3 etc.

At the moment, DivX quality is more than acceptable on my 28inch TV. I'm getting a projector in a few days, so I'll see what the quality s like.

In the end, we all have TiVo because we want to watch quality TV at time that is convenient for us. While downloading isn't as simple as creating a season pass (but a lot less trouble than you think), it enables me to watch stuff that will never get to UK TV.

T


----------



## alanjrobertson

I've got a Hauppage MediaMVP connected to my TV plugged in to my gigabit home network. Takes very little time for video files to be moved round the network, and use GB-PVR on my main PC to (a) a much nicer looking interface than the Hauppage one and (b) automatically transcode MPEG4 files to MPEG2 (which the MVP plays, along with music, internet radio, RSS feeds, etc.). I also got a USB DVB-T adapter for £40 and GB-PVR will stream that over the network too - useful if I buy another MVP for say the kitchen - would have access to DTT and any stored MPEG2/4 files


----------



## sanderton

But in the US he IS opening up; DirectTV is to support the CableCard standard from next year.


----------



## B33K34

alanjrobertson said:


> use GB-PVR on my main PC to (a) a much nicer looking interface than the Hauppage one and (b) automatically transcode MPEG4 files to MPEG2 (which the MVP plays, along with music, internet radio, RSS feeds, etc.).


Ok - i've a Nebula DigiTV card in one of my pc's but the nebular interface is so awful (IMO) that it rarely gets used. I gave up trying to set a recording again the other night so this might be worth a go.

Does GB-PVR support Radio?


----------



## manolan

iSteve said:


> You're right, I've heard of this and looked into this, however it is a none-the-less completely unofficial route, something of a hack, and I'm sure it would be considered illegal by Sky (unauthorised circumvention of encryption would probably also violate the DMCA, although I'm not sure it would enforceable here in Europe or whether we have similar laws either now or in the statute books. Also I'm no lawyer so I couldn't say who would be held liable for this - the CAM manufacturers, the card programmers, the end user, or if it'd fall between the cracks.)
> 
> Certainly it's the case, I'm sure, that Sky would prefer to retain 100% control of the encryption/decryption cycle, to retain their control over the UK satellite digibox market and therefore the PVR market.
> 
> If Sky is not taking action against breaking the Dragon CAMs from working it is either because the effort required to break them outweighs the benefit, or they're not concerned as no mass market product is based on it. But I'm sure it's not because they're happy with the CAMs being available and used, as I'm sure they're not. I'm certain they'd action to stop any mass market product e.g. a PVR being released which is based on it, or alter the encryption to break it. This is also why I'd be reluctant to put good money down on such a CAM.
> 
> The only long-term solution would seem to be to enforce a customer's right to receive a legally-purchased PayTV subscription through whatever technology the consumer legally owns. This would open up the market to more PVR offerings and the competition would be good for the end users like you and me. Though I'm sceptical that'd ever happen.


Although their response to this may be influenced by the fact that they (Sky) are technically in breach of their license by not opening this area up.


----------



## Davyburns

Sneals2000 said:


> There is also software for (mainly) Divx downloading via P2P that will look for the latest episodes of favourite series and automatically download them...


Interesting, What are they, and where can I find them?


----------



## Sneals2000

alanjrobertson said:


> I've got a Hauppage MediaMVP connected to my TV plugged in to my gigabit home network. Takes very little time for video files to be moved round the network, and use GB-PVR on my main PC to (a) a much nicer looking interface than the Hauppage one and (b) automatically transcode MPEG4 files to MPEG2 (which the MVP plays, along with music, internet radio, RSS feeds, etc.). I also got a USB DVB-T adapter for £40 and GB-PVR will stream that over the network too - useful if I buy another MVP for say the kitchen - would have access to DTT and any stored MPEG2/4 files


Yep - and the MVP deals with MPEG2 interlaced material properly, unlike XBMC, which mangles the fields into frames.

I tried it for a while - but the UI on GBPVR and the Hauppauge software was very sluggish for me - and neither software seemed that robust.


----------



## Sneals2000

sanderton said:


> But in the US he IS opening up; DirectTV is to support the CableCard standard from next year.


Yep - with DRM in PCs, Vista Media Center supposedly supporting cablecard etc. the world is shifting. Though is this opening up DirecTV or PC video closing itself off?

I suspect Sky may eventually have to follow suit.


----------



## Sneals2000

Davyburns said:


> Interesting, What are they, and where can I find them?


Can't remember their names, and probably not really appropriate to discuss.

However ISTR that they were popular with PSP Video 9 users (who automatically download and then automatically transcode to PSP MPEG4 format video)


----------



## Sneals2000

manolan said:


> Although their response to this may be influenced by the fact that they (Sky) are technically in breach of their license by not opening this area up.


Yep - in theory Sky or NDS should offer a Videoguard CAM - though they don't. Interestingly Sky Italia has moved to closed Videoguard receivers from a different encryption system that supported CI CAMs that could be used on any receiver with a CI slot.


----------



## gohilo

Are sky paying TIVO to keep out of the UK or what? seems likely to me... and easy money for TIVO. 

Why are TIVO's so country specific anyway... not much else is... how difficult would it be to make new TIVOS international... i.e. pal or ntcs and backward compatible with all EPG's etc... it's not bloody rocket science given todays technology.

The whole thing is bollocks if you ask me....


----------



## pixuk

Well, I finally did it. Last month I cancelled both TiVo and Sky and have gone down the Virgin Media V+ route. Sure the user interface is 'different', but it actually offers me more features than the Sky & TiVo combo (and, importantly, a better picture too!) 

I was already with Virgin (neé NTL) for broadband and phone, so rolling it all up it into their bundle gives me a slew of premium channels per month for about £15 less per month than I was paying before. The only thing I've lost is Sky One/News/Travel/Etc, but I can't say I've noticed.

Love the on-demand content. Sat and watched the whole of the HBO 'From The Earth To The Moon' series in one long sitting last weekend. Been catching up on complete Channel 4 seasons than I hadn't previously discovered. In the same way that TiVo changed the way I watched television about 6 years ago (for me), V+ is the next step.

So my TiVo box is now unplugged and sitting in a corner. It's the end of an era for me, but TiVo hasn't moved on. I now have BBC HD and on-demand HD content, and sure as eggs is eggs, many channels will be broadcast in HD. TiVo UK isn't there. I know we all held out hoping that TiVo would re-enter the UK market with a Series 2 or Series 3, but the reality is we were abandoned in January 2003.

It's been interesting sharing thoughts (and crossing swords!) with you guys.

Pete


----------



## cwaring

gohilo said:


> The whole thing is b******s if you ask me....


Nice first post. Not the best way to endear yourself to the community 

You obviously have _no idea_ as how exactly how complex it is. Pehaps a forums search might have given you a clue.


----------



## pgogborn

cwaring said:


> Nice first post. Not the best way to endear yourself to the community
> 
> You obviously have _no idea_ as how exactly how complex it is. Pehaps a forums search might have given you a clue.


That is NOT a nice way to treat a first time poster.


----------



## cwaring

If someone wants to be rude, why should I be nice in return?

The poster really does obviously not have a clue about anything to do with Tivo. Fair enough. They could have asked _politely_ about the possibilities of using a non-UK Tivo in the UK and I would have been more inclined to help them out.

A first post on a Forum that simply shouts the odds and says it's all a load of whatever is _not_ the way to do it.

Now I might just be in a bad mood as I had a accident while running for the bus earlier today on my way back from Leeds. Some idiot woman decided it would be okay for her some to ride his bike on the pavement. Okay. If I hadn't been concentrating on not missing the bus I might have seen him, but bikes should be ridden _on the road_ 

If that has coloured my judgement in this case, I apologise.


----------



## TCM2007

He wasn't asking about anything, just stating an opinion that it should be possible to make a multinational TiVo, should TiVo so desire. I broadly agree, although US equipment isually US specific, unlike ours.

I believe the thing he believes to be "bollocks" are the excuses given for TiVo's lack of presence in the UK.


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

Oooh Carl, steady on old fruit. You're begining to sound like Pete !


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

cwaring said:


> Now I might just be in a bad mood as I had a accident while running for the bus earlier today on my way back from Leeds. Some idiot woman decided it would be okay for her some to ride his bike on the pavement. Okay. If I hadn't been concentrating on not missing the bus I might have seen him, but bikes should be ridden _on the road_


Now I know that hindsight is the best management tool, but you should have called the old bill. Riding bicycles on the pavement is not legal and you could have sued the woman for damages.. Little Johnny want to ride a bike, little Johnny should learn to ride it on the road, too much cotton-wool for kids these days.


----------



## cwaring

Never thought of that. Plus i would have missed me bus


----------



## Podgy Dad

Thats a much better idea, let a kid get knocked down by a car and probably killed rather than a minor accident between a pedestrian and a bike.


----------



## mikerr

TCM2007 said:


> just stating an opinion that it should be possible to make a multinational TiVo, should TiVo so desire. I broadly agree, although US equipment isually US specific, unlike ours.


Tivo is mainly a software company not a manufacturer. They don't "make" the boxes.
They make the software and charge a licence for it.

A manufacturer could build a cross-standards pal/ntsc box, but would have to pay for a tivo software licence in each country.

The risk (and impetus) is therefore with the manufacturers, not tivo.

The downloadable tivo firmware for cable STBs is the most likely option with virginmedia - as tivo has a version available for the model the V+ is based on (but with recent virginmedia cost-cutting that seems unlikely).


----------



## terryeden

Bad form to reply to oneself, I know... but



terryeden said:


> At the moment, DivX quality is more than acceptable on my 28inch TV. I'm getting a projector in a few days, so I'll see what the quality s like.


DivX on a 92inch screen is more that acceptable.

Naturally, Heroes could look better at 720p. But if it's a choice between watching it now at acceptable and in a year's time at perfect; I'll take now.

My TiVo is still chugging away... but it is getting long in the tooth.

Who do I contact in TiVo HQ to get a licence - I reckon it's time to start my own company making high class PVRs. Sod the masses, they can be happy with Sky+.

If I could make a TiVo for, say £700 - with all the trimmings - who'd buy one?

T


----------



## DeadKenny

gohilo said:



> Why are TIVO's so country specific anyway... not much else is... how difficult would it be to make new TIVOS international... i.e. pal or ntcs and backward compatible with all EPG's etc... it's not bloody rocket science given todays technology.


Ignoring the manufacturing need for SCART sockets in Europe, dual PAL/NTSC boxes would be easy enough (like dual stadard TVs) but the problem is things have moved on with the advent of digital TV and such boxes are limited purely to external analogue inputs which the box has to digitise.

i.e. hooking up the box to a Freeview box or Sky box via a SCART connection. The result isn't that amazing, as anyone with a big screen TV will tell you.

Sky+/V+ by comparison wipes the floor with TiVo in this regard because they record direct off the digital stream.

Also with HD here, TiVo is stuck in the dark ages. PAL/NTSC are irellevant when it comes to HD. It's all 720p, 1080i/1080p formats in 24fps, 25fps, 50Hz or 60Hz rates (and despite the differences they are at least compatible with all regions).

For HD you really need an integrated TiVo that has an HD decoder card. Problem is you can't because of Sky's hold and proprietary system (well same goes for V+). Well you can get standard HD decoders but that limits you to some Euro HD satellite that carries nothing of interest (unless you want to watch Eurovision in HD  ).

The only solution is for ofcom or someone to force Sky and Virgin to open up and allow other manufacturers to integrate digital decoders for satellite and cable that will work with Sky and Virgin.

That's unlikely though, so the only way for TiVo to exist in the UK is either as a standalone PVR for analogue inputs or to do a deal with a Freeview manufacturer and integrate a Freeview decoder. Both really are unlikely because of the high availability of Freeview PVRs (or DVRs) out there already.

Coupled with TiVo's complete disinterest in the UK market. They experimented and simply realised there's no profitable market for it in the UK.


----------



## DeadKenny

terryeden said:


> DivX on a 92inch screen is more that acceptable.


Well DivX is just an encoding system. Acceptable depends on the resolution and bitrate chosen.

I've got some DivX stuff which is truly awful on both a 32" and 40" TV. Some are lower resolution than the original broadcast for some reason, and some are the right resolution but are compressed to hell.

It's not just DivX though. I got hold of a 720p H.264 HD encoded Star Trek TOS episode (one of the new HD remastered ones), and it was blocky as hell. Compared it to the DVD and I'd actually say the DVD upscaled showed more detail!

Though I've seen some H.264 stuff that looks pretty good.


----------



## Emmzi

terryeden said:


> If I could make a TiVo for, say £700 - with all the trimmings - who'd buy one?
> 
> T


If I could have a 2 year warranty, sure!


----------



## DeadKenny

What to sell at £700?

As much as I love TiVo, no chance.

If it just did what the current TiVo did I'd say it's only worth £200 max and even then to get a retailer to pick it up it's going to have to be £50 to £100 to compete with all the cheap Freeview kit.

If however it had an integrated Sky HD decoder then it's worth £300 . Still to sell well you'll have to compete with SkyHD and they're being sold for as little as £150 now.


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

Podgy Dad said:


> Thats a much better idea, let a kid get knocked down by a car and probably killed rather than a minor accident between a pedestrian and a bike.


I think I rode my bike on the road when I was a kid. Still here, all limbs working... thats coz we had a thing called a cycling proficiency test and a damn good helping of common sense !


----------



## gohilo

LOL hadn't realised it was my first post... but I've never needed to post anything before... I've had a tivo with full sub for around 4 to 5 years and upgraded it myself to twin 120gb drives. I've used it with Sky, Telewest, NTL and currently with Virgin Media. (I move around alot) I've also installed a cache card. So I do know a little about Tivos

I guess the reaction was expected... but given the title of the post WHO ELSE IS READY TO JUMP !!!!! Im surprised I got such a pasting

Unless something is done then the lack of HD on Tivo may well be the death of Tivo in the U.K. I still have my Tivo and a 36 Panasonic TV. But I want a 46 flat panel and HD and at that point the Tivo will probably have to go


----------



## iankb

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> I think I rode my bike on the road when I was a kid.


Cycling was no problem when I was a kid, and I didn't even wear a helmet when I drove a motor scooter. I came off the scooter a few times (usually leaning over too much on slow corners on a Vespa with wide footboards) but never hurt myself. The reason why is that motor vehicles had a lot less power, and speeds were much lower. I think that all young drivers, and all drivers convicted of recent motoring offences, should have their vehicles limited in both power and top speed. Unfortunately, one can't solve the other change over the years, and that is the greatly-increased level of traffic on the road.


----------



## TCM2007

terryeden said:


> Bad form to reply to oneself, I know... but
> 
> DivX on a 92inch screen is more that acceptable.
> 
> Naturally, Heroes could look better at 720p. But if it's a choice between watching it now at acceptable and in a year's time at perfect; I'll take now.


If you're downloading DiVx, why not go the whole hog and download Heroes in 1080? Looks brilliant.


----------



## BrianHughes

terryeden said:


> ...
> If I could make a TiVo for, say £700 - with all the trimmings - who'd buy one?
> 
> T


A Series 3? Yep, put my name on one


----------



## Andy Leitch

terryeden said:


> If I could make a TiVo for, say £700 - with all the trimmings - who'd buy one?
> 
> T


Not a chance. That's nearly three times the US price.

I want a S3...but I won't be ripped off.

http://www.betanews.com/article/TiVo_Drops_Price_of_Series3_by_300/1177706329

£299 tops.


----------



## TCM2007

For £700 you can buy/build a Media Center PC which has all the features of TiVo and more, and no monthly sub.


----------



## healeydave

gohilo said:


> I guess the reaction was expected... but given the title of the post WHO ELSE IS READY TO JUMP !!!!! Im surprised I got such a pasting


Well it was another old thread bought back to life.



gohilo said:


> Unless something is done then the lack of HD on Tivo may well be the death of Tivo in the U.K. I still have my Tivo and a 36 Panasonic TV. But I want a 46 flat panel and HD and at that point the Tivo will probably have to go


I've always had a sneeking suspicion that people have found it hard to understand my previous posts regarding my satisfaction with my Tivo setup with a large flat panel. Now I know Panels vary significantly and of-course when it comes to a Tivo combination, there are the Mode 0 tweaks and the Contrast setting tweaks that make a difference, but it only really became apparent to me last weekend that the degree of quality people are experiencing with SD Digital TV could be varying massively before Tivo is even introduced into the fray.

I went round to a mates house to help him with some stuff. He has one of the 2006 new Panasonic Panels with Sky+. He's spent a fortune on Gold Scart leads etc but I felt embarrassed & awkward (knowing how much he has spent) when he asked if I thought his setup looked as good as mine because quite frankly it doesn't look a patch on the Quality I have. The way he asked was more of a questioning it because he too felt his setup wasn't on par but I couldn't really answer why. I've always been working on the basis that we are tweaking Tivo to try and get it comparable to a native Sky digibox output but in this case having a Tivo in the mix on my setup produces a superior output to his Sky+ without a Tivo!?!???!?!?

Short of inviting every person round to see for themselves, I don't really know what more I can say to emphasize my satisfaction with 42" Tivo setup. Its not like I haven't seen the advancements in the capabilities of HD etc, my judgment is not clouded, I now realize that there are probably two categories of people seeking improvement. Those I call AV connoisseurs that simply want the highest quality irrespective of how much its costs and how much material there is (and there's nothing wrong with that) and those that may simply be suffering from a poor combination of kit that makes them think they need to upgrade!

I am not an AV connoisseur, I may have been at one time, I just think as I've got older, I prefer to balance what your getting for your money versus what your spending and I just don't think chasing HD at the moment represents good value for money with the added complexity of having to relinquish equipment I'm still not ready to.

For those that are interested, my setup is listed below. I have tweaked the Tivo's contrast settings and the Plasma's colour engine settings etc to suit my preference on the Sky platform and I admit, getting it to look superb on the Sky platform does mean when I switch to Freeview, the contrast is higher than I would normally have.

Plasma: LG 42PX5D
TV Sources: Sky Digital & Freeview Via Scart
Other Inputs: PS3 for DVD & BlueRay media via HDMI , AppleTV via HDMI
Sky Digibox: Pace DS440NB
Audio Amp: Sony STR-D1011
Speakers: Bose Acoustimass 16
Tivo: PVR10UK 6024

The huge Bass Bin that comes with the Bose system is hidden in the blanket box to the right and I've also put the Sky Digibox in there as this is ugly which means I only have the Amp & PS3 on display. I prefered it when it was only the Amp as I don't like the look of the PS3 either but I need access to that of-course. Because of the Tivo's excellent IR receptive capabilites, it is sat upright on its side behind the blanket box so it keeps it all nice & neat and works faultlessly without even pointing the remote at it


----------



## chrisd

Are all the wires to/from the TV hidden behind the wall? It looks nice n neat


----------



## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> For £700 you can buy/build a Media Center PC which has all the features of TiVo and more, and no monthly sub.


I'm just starting to enjoy life without Windows 
P.S.
What exactly did Apple do to make the simplest things like a standard Web page look so much better on a Mac than the same page displayed on a Windows PC???
The fonts, graphics, shading, dialog boxes etc has a far superior quality of appearance!


----------



## healeydave

chrisd said:


> Are all the wires to/from the TV hidden behind the wall? It looks nice n neat


Yes, this was a new extension so we had the ability to stud the wall out and provide a conduit that runs diagonally from behind the Plasma to the corner of the room. I made it nice & wide too for future cable pulls if necessary 

The same thing can be done relatively cheaply to any room though really if your prepared to batten out & plasterboard the existing wall and lose a couple of inches off the room size. Well worth it in my opinion for the long term and its only one wall and a bit of decorating, sounds worse that it is.


----------



## chrisd

Definitely worth doing, it looks so much better that way.

I'm hoping to move in the near(ish) future, so that is something I will look to do when we get to the new place. How much approx would someone charge to do all the work? I am useless at DIY so would rather pay someone to do it properly rather than me mess the place up!


----------



## rwtomkins

iankb said:


> Cycling was no problem when I was a kid, and I didn't even wear a helmet when I drove a motor scooter. I came off the scooter a few times (usually leaning over too much on slow corners on a Vespa with wide footboards) but never hurt myself. The reason why is that motor vehicles had a lot less power, and speeds were much lower. I think that all young drivers, and all drivers convicted of recent motoring offences, should have their vehicles limited in both power and top speed. Unfortunately, one can't solve the other change over the years, and that is the greatly-increased level of traffic on the road.


I don't know when you were a kid but I very much doubt whether fewer child cyclists were being killed than now. The number of children being killed in road accidents has been going steadily down for decades and is now at an all-time low. From memory it was highest in the 1920s when thousands of children were being slaughtered on the streets each year. This was because most children played on the streets in those days and the motor car was still a bit of a novelty. The decline in fatalities since then reflects among other things the introduction of driving tests, the growing safety of the motor vehicle (much better brakes, no sharp bits on the front etc), improvements in road design, the introduction of road safety education, greater safety consciousness, tougher speed limits and probably above all an enormous reluctance among parents to allow their children on the streets at all, whether on or off a bike.

Back on topic, what about BT Vision which has just gone into full launch mode? Would this be a substitute for TiVo for those who only want the Freeview channels? Anyone know how many tuners the box has? Is the box hackable?

Apologies if we've already been here but I did a quick search and couldn't find any detailed discussion of BT Vision.


----------



## healeydave

Well I wouldn't have thought it would cost too much.
I think the standard pitch for battens is 400mm so on my room which was 11ft wide, your looking at around 8 battens and 3 plasterboard's. You'd need a sparky to move & probably add some outlets for you. I did add some extra battens around the center of the room to accommodate the Plasma mounting bracket. You can leaf a nice big square hole centrally behind the Plasma bracket for all the cables to congregate.

If you use something like 1" x 2" batten and I think its 3/4" plasterboard, your looking at less than 2" in depth of the new wall. You can make the cable run out of batten as well and give it plenty of height to allow for lots of cable room. Rough diagram below for the basic principle.


----------



## BrianHughes

TCM2007 said:


> For £700 you can buy/build a Media Center PC which has all the features of TiVo and more, and no monthly sub.


I don't care. I want a Tivo! *stamps foot*


----------



## davisa

I watch TiVo on a 82" glass-bead screen for drama, and 32" TFT for casual and find mode 0 recordings very watchable indeed.

"Who else is ready to jump ship?"

Well, my TiVo HDD died a couple of weeks ago, so I obviously looked at the 'alternatives':

Media Centre PC - too expensive. Don't want MS Windows back in the house.
Sky+ - Not allowed dish. Primitive feature set and poor usability.
Virgin V+ DVR - Primitive feature set and poor usability.
Freeview/DVD DVR. - Primitive feature set and poor usability.
Mac Mini (or AppleTV)+Freeview tuner - possible future alternative but still a bit 'fussy'.

Really, there is still nothing out there that comes anywhere close to TiVo (as I use it). So a new HDD it was


----------



## ColinYounger

davisa said:


> I watch TiVo on a 82" glass-bead screen for drama


  
82"?!?!


Showoff.


----------



## davisa

ColinYounger said:


> 82"?!?!
> 
> 
> Showoff.


he he  Bought it back in the days of LaserDisc  , when projectors were dim (at least compared to now) and needed all the help they could get. Now it glows like a big bright glowey thing 

Ps. I'm still jealous of healeydave's set-up. Now _that_ looks nice :up:


----------



## TCM2007

Still not sure about wall mounted screens. The one in healydave's picture looks too high up to me, I'd crick my neck!


----------



## cwaring

Perhaps he's incredibly tall


----------



## Andy Leitch

TCM2007 said:


> Still not sure about wall mounted screens. The one in healydave's picture looks too high up to me, I'd crick my neck!


Yep, (although I was too polite to say first).

Your viewing postion/eyeline should be midway/dead centre of the screen and the tweeters of the front speakers should be at ear level. So dave is not getting the best out of his system visually or sonically.


----------



## terryeden

92 inch screen plays Doctor Who in Mode 0 with almost as much clarity as the DVDs.

The Xbox media Center and Projector do a nice job of upscaling to this size









With an end result of









FYI, reduction of image quality is entirely due to my camera.


----------



## cwaring

Well, just for a laugh here's my (rather pathetic by comparison) set up.



(I had to put _something_ on the screen or you would have just seen me taking the photo )



terryeden said:


> Edit.... OK... what part of my brain has died and prevented me from embedding images....?


http://imageshack.us is your friend


----------



## blindlemon

You can't get a much better picture than a Panasonic CRT IMHO, and wall-mounted plasmas do nothing for me I'm afraid....

I like your friend Jessica Jane though...


----------



## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> Still not sure about wall mounted screens. The one in healydave's picture looks too high up to me, I'd crick my neck!


My wife thought the same when she first walked in and saw it mounted but in reality if you sit upright on the sofa and look straight ahead, the average persons eye line is at the lower half of the screen, so your eyes are only having to move slightly to peer straight at the center of the screen without having to lean back or tilt your head at all. Further more, if you actually get comfy and slouch back into the sofa (which is more natural than sitting upright), your eyeline then tends to be straight at the center of the screen anyway!


----------



## healeydave

Andy Leitch said:


> Yep, (although I was too polite to say first).
> 
> Your viewing postion/eyeline should be midway/dead centre of the screen and the tweeters of the front speakers should be at ear level. So dave is not getting the best out of his system visually or sonically.


I should have carried on reading before replying ready as already replied to Stuart regarding eyeline not an issue. 
Re: Acoustics, I find it hard to believe the sound could be improved anymore by lowering the speakers. I could angle & tilt the left & right speakers (the center is already tilted) but I certainly wouldn't lower them because the room's acoustics are so good as they are I wouldn't want to compromise on the aesthetics.

Remember I did say I'm not an AV connoisseur


----------



## cwaring

blindlemon said:


> I like your friend Jessica Jane though...


You been sneaking a peek at my other pics  Yes, she is rather sweet isn't she


----------



## blindlemon

cwaring said:


> Yes, she is rather sweet isn't she


Um, "sweet" wasn't the first word that came into my mind


----------



## cwaring

Well I was trying to keep it clean  I could show you a couple of other pictures I have of her but they're... erm...let's just say they're "not work safe"


----------



## martink0646

Personally, I think Healeydave's screen looks about right. When you go to the cinema (still the reference I'm afraid) or even the theatre, you don't have your eyes dead level but the screen/action is slightly above eye level.

In our house I have the opposite problem where the screen is too low. Due to the triple height ceiling, I didn't/couldn't afford/wife wouldn't let me have the false wall all the way up so we added it to an existing dividing partition. The result as you can see from the photos is a screen that is almost dead level with the eyes but only feels perfect if you are laying down on the sofa, which is a good excuse. The speakers are NXT flat panels (I had to get rid of my B&W floorstanders - isn't marriage great   ) in a 7 speaker set up plus 2 sub woofers hidden away. If I could start again I would probably prefer it to be more like healeydave's set up.


----------



## healeydave

Nice job all the same!

I spotted a Streamium there too, that reminds me, I have one of those boxed up I must sell as it never made it into my setup in the end :-(


----------



## kitschcamp

I've got the fun of a bit of rewiring next week. After moving and having a huge living room at the farm instead of having a teeny pokey 2 bed semi in the UK the old 32" plasma is looking a bit lost. So I've got a nice new projector to install.

Ah, Dubai... the joys of international work travel.


----------



## IainJH

Luddite I may be, but having just got rid of a Sky stb (pq looked worse than Freeview), a Sky+ (nice bit of kit, hit the sweet spot but completely unused next to tivo) and a Sky HD (not enough HD broadcasts and ran too hot!) , I reckon we'll be using our Tivo for a few years yet... 4 or 5 if possible.

Using it with a 37" plasma was Ok, but on a decent 32" LCD the PQ from Tivo is obviously degraded a little but still looks A-OK.

So.. no, not ready to jump


----------



## ericd121

martink0646 said:


> Personally, I think Healeydave's screen looks about right. When you go to the cinema (still the reference I'm afraid) or even the theatre, you don't have your eyes dead level but the screen/action is slightly above eye level.


But you should have your eyes level, or looking down, at the cinema.

Try this test; don't move your head, but look above your monitor.
How long can you hold that gaze?
Now look below your monitor.
(God, this keyboard needs cleaning.  )

I'm guessing it's a lot easier for you to look down than up.

The best cinemas have a good rake to the seating, and no, modern cinema architects, leaning back and looking up at the screen from a level floor is *not* as good!


----------



## healeydave

I'm not being funny, but this looking up / looking down stuff might sound plausible but in reality, given the distance my sofa is away from the plasma, my eyeball probably has to move about a millimeter to go from the bottom of the screen to the speaker above it!!!!

If this involved a significant tilting of the head, I might think there's something in it


----------



## martink0646

So Eric, Cinema seats are raked back so that where ever the screen is you will be looking down? That info is almost enough to get me to the cinema tomorrow to check it out  

Well, I have learnt my new fact for the day, thanks.  

Martin


----------



## cwaring

It is for a similar reason that theatre stages are raked from the back to the front; or is that front to back? Anyway, they're slightly higher at the back of the stage area.


----------



## blindlemon

Are you sure? If anything they should be higher at the front so that the effect of tiered seating on the viewing angle is less pronounced.

However, as actors (like most people) will have a tendancy to adjust their posture if they're standing on a slope so that they are still standing upright (ie. vertically), this would be an entirely pointless exercise. You'd just have a load of actors all leaning forward (or backward in your example) as they tried to act 

Edit: Ahh, just googled and found this:-


> Stages in some theatres have a raked stage - the stage floor is higher at the back than at the front, improving the illusion of greater depth when using 3D sets. Such stage floors may be precarious for actors, and totally impracticable for dance performers


 - what a stupid idea


----------



## AMc

I don't think cinema seating (or theatre) seating is a good comparison. The idea there is to get 100's of people looking at the same screen in an acceptable position. The pitch in the floor of theatres is the same - so you can see over the head in front. Even movie viewing rooms in places like MGM have to compromise to get around 20 seats in. You could spend a bit of time looking at the custom installs at places like www.homecinemachoice.com but I think you'll find that people have different preferences and there is no correct answer.
There was a massive debate over at avforums.com about this subject and there was no clear winner there either - some like high screens, others like them scraping the skirting board.

If you're in the process of wall mounting or considering wall mounting a TV - take a sheet(s) of newspaper the same size as the panel. Bluetac it (them) to the wall at the intended location and get everyone to sit and spend several minutes looking at the 'screen'. Don't just stand back and think 'that looks good'. If after 5 minutes your neck hurts or it 'feels wrong' then try it higher or lower until you reach a comfortable and aesthetic position.

My new house has windows on two sides and a fireplace on another. There is only one wall that could accomodate a big panel and that would mean losing a sofa and hacking about an 18 century lath and plaster wall, even then I'd end up looking side on at the screen - so I'll stick with my 32" CRT and my portable 2m projection screen for movies in the corner


----------



## AMc

I once went on the stage at the RSC at Stratford (during a tour  ) and the way the stage was tilted at the audience was quite alarming!


----------



## ColinYounger

I stage-hand occasionally at the local theatre which has a big rake. Trying to stop large pieces of set from trundling downstage at the audience is an art - especially when cast are climbing\dancing all over them! The fix usually involving several hands behind the set-piece pulling on bits of rope\set to stop the damn thing moving, and wishing the leading lady lost a few pounds. 

Ahhh - the magic of theatre.


----------



## BrianHughes

ColinYounger said:


> I stage-hand occasionally at the local theatre which has a big rake. ....


Is that a prop for a horticulturally themed play? 

Sorry - couldn't resist - obvious pun


----------



## Nebulous

BrianHughes said:


> ColinYounger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I stage-hand occasionally at the local theatre which has a big rake. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a prop for a horticulturally themed play?
> 
> Sorry - couldn't resist - obvious pun
Click to expand...

No.. Surely it's for the comedy show. You know.. the one where somebody steps on the end.


----------



## ericd121

martink0646 said:


> So Eric, Cinema seats are raked back so that where ever the screen is you will be looking down? That info is almost enough to get me to the cinema tomorrow to check it out


Traditional cinema floors are raked, but in the 1980's some bright spark decided to build cinemas with level floors and place the screen above the audience. 
(I remember the new one at Salford Quays was like this.)

Although the seats tipped back, I found it less than satisfactory.


----------



## iankb

ericd121 said:


> ... cinemas with level floors and place the screen above the audience.
> ... Although the seats tipped back, I found it less than satisfactory.


I have a habit of falling asleep when I recline, and found it difficult to watch to the end of a film with a cinema like that in The Netherlands.


----------



## blindlemon

I always find it difficult to stay awake at the cinema, especially during 'action' movies


----------



## Pete77

Staying awake in a darkened room where you are held immobile if the plot does not grab your attention is very hard work indeed (as I also found many years ago on a University politics department trip to Moscow that took in the Bolshoi Ballet back in Iron Curtain days).

Last Sunday I had to witness a 2 hour amateur dance theatre performance at which my 3 year old niece appeared a couple of times for about 3 minutes each. However hard I tried I found it almost impossible to stop my eyes repeatedly closing and my head dropping. Fortunately I knew the two item numbers my niece would be appearing in and I did manage to keep myself awake for those particular moments in the whole entirely plotles proceedings.


----------



## blindlemon

Not bad, but my list of "dozers" so far includes *all *the Harry Potter films, Pirates of the Caribbean (even Kiera couldn't keep me awake in that!), King Kong and Lord of the Rings (the last one)


----------



## Pete77

TopUpTv have just emailed me to tell me their new Freeview PVR (they call it a DTR) now includes a Series Link feature too. They even call it Series Link. Of course the snag is that TopUpTV is a subscription based product.

I wonder if the Series Link feature still works on Freeview channels even if you unsubscribe and just use it for Freeview channels? I expect not - but then again.........................



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claire [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 22 May 2007 10:13
> Subject: Top Up TV is better than ever
> 
> If you are having trouble viewing the email below, please click here.
> 
> But were not the same without you. We enjoyed having you as our customer and wed love to have you back.
> 
> The Top Up TV+ box is one of the best Freeview DTRs around  and its easy to use. Its basically like Sky+ but on Freeview and allows you record 2 programmes at once, see whats on up to 14 days in advance, and you can even pause live TV.
> 
> Plus you can receive over 600 brilliant programmes and movies a month on Top Up TV Anytime. Because your DTR saves them automatically, you can watch them whenever you want. Action, adventure, comedy, kids, sports, movies or music, Top Up TV ticks all the right boxes.
> 
> Take a look at all the new features
> of Top Up TV+
> 
> *Record 2 channels simultaneously
> 
> Record, rewind and pause live TV
> 
> Our Series link lets you record every episode of a series automatically at the push of a button   *
> 
> With over 600 programmes a month from brilliant channels like LIVING, Discovery and UKTV Gold, theres lots more variety on Top Up TV Anytime
> 
> Now you have a choice of ways to pay for your Top Up TV+ box.
> 
> Option One
> Interest Free Credit. Pay just £20 now for your Top Up TV+ box, then 12 equal monthly instalments of £8.33 at 0% interest. Plus your monthly subscription of £9.99.*
> 
> Option Two
> Save £45. If you subscribe to Top Up TV Anytime for 12 months, you can pay just £75 for your Top Up TV+ box now. Then £9.99* a month ongoing.
> 
> Option Three
> No annual obligation. Pay £120 for your Top Up TV+ box now and then £9.99* a month with no annual contract.
> 
> Sport mad?
> 
> Then Setanta Sports is the channel for you. Watch exclusive live sporting action including:
> 
> The much anticipated Ricky Hatton v Castillo boxing match exclusively live from Las Vegas on June 24
> 
> 46 Live Barclays Premiership football matches per season from August 2007
> 
> USPGA Golf Tour
> 
> 60 Scottish Premier League matches per season
> 
> Top live European Football including Serie A, Bundesliga
> 
> Subscribe to Setanta today and pay just £5 a month for 3 months.**
> 
> Call 08700 855 180*** NOW to take advantage of this offer.
> Ends May 31
> Wayne Rooney image © 1999  2007 Getty Images, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> 
> Sound good? Find out more and Call 08700 543 210. It would be lovely to see you again.
> 
> * Prices inclusive of VAT
> ** Normally £10.99
> *** Calls cost 10p a minute from a BT landline, other networks may vary
> 
> Top Up TV Europe Limited has its registered office at 22 Grenville Street, St Helier, Jersey JE4 8PX.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I wonder if the Series Link feature still works on Freeview channels even if you unsubscribe and just use it for Freeview channels? I expect not - but then again.........................


I doubt the series link feature works on the Freeview channels at all.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I doubt the series link feature works on the Freeview channels at all.


Why do you suppose that when this is also an advanced Freeview Playback box.

Note that its made by none other than our old friends Thomson.  :up:

Review here:-

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/reviews/review.phtml/2282/3306/thomson-topup-tv-pvr-review.phtml

It concludes this is a superb box but mind you its hard to have much faith in any Review that commences as follows



> *Despite a degree of what wed loosely called "innovation" in the PVR market, none has bettered the convenience and usability of Sky+. So straightforward is the Sky control system its difficult to imagine a more effective way to view, record and browse programmes.*


   :down:


----------



## TCM2007

Because series links require metadata in the EPG, and so far as I'm aware that is not being broadcast by the Freeview channels. Presumably TopUp TV are including such data in their own channels somehow.

Edit: Seems I'm wrong and the BBC are including metadata. Don't know about other channels.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Edit: Seems I'm wrong and the BBC are including metadata. Don't know about other channels.


Yes you were indeed wrong TCM as you have been repeatedly in your *assumptions* about the Freeview Playback spec. Unfortunately your tendency to believe that you are always right stood in the way here of you being able to believe that humble Freeview could deliver Series Link:-

From:- www.pvruk.co.uk/article.cfm?attributes.article=544



> The new system is set up to support all the Freeview Playback signalling. Default authority descriptors have been added into the SDT and one network also carries the default authority in the NIT. Once issues with multiple-section NITs are resolved, it is the BBC's intention to signal the default authority in the NIT. *The BBC is currently supplying metadata to support series recording, alternate instance and split instance. ITV and Channel 4 will start supplying series recording information and accurate triggers in Q1 2007 when their infrastructure upgrades are complete, and other broadcasters are expected to follow. The BBC has been working with its metadata supplier to ensure the data is correct*. If there are any inconsistencies the BBC would like to know. "


In fact this will be a better Series Link system than Sky+ I believe as real time program schedule changes will be adjusted for and accommodated.


----------



## Pete77

My oh my this thread has been quiet today. 

Either TCM has been out at business meetings all day or alternatively its simply the quietness one gets after the opposition has decided to make a hasty tactical retreat to their bunker and then securely battoned down all the hatches.


----------



## mikerr

TCM admitted his mistake.

You would have just gone back and deleted all your own posts like this thread no doubt


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> TCM admitted his mistake.
> 
> You would have just gone back and deleted all your own posts like this thread no doubt


OK but there was a good reason on that other thread you mention.

And TCM has on several occasions ignored and disbelieved my mentions of what Freeview Playback will soon be able to do and how it will give Sky+ a run for its money.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> OK but there was a good reason on that other thread you mention.


Go on then. As far as I can think there's no _good_ reason to voluntarily delete one's own posts


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> As far as I can think there's no _good_ reason to voluntarily delete one's own posts


Clearly you are thinking of your posts Carl and not mine. 

I'm sure there lots of reasons people can think of for deleting some of my posts.


----------



## cwaring

Indeed. But I'm talking about _you_ deleting _your own_ posts, which is a completely seperate thing.

Nice avoidance technique though  Care to try again?


----------



## iankb

The only reasons that I can think of for deleting your own posts is that you want to hide the truths that you posted before, or you told untruths that you want to retract. Either way, it doesn't seem very honest.


----------



## ndunlavey

It's very sad that this forum has become so aggressive and nasty in the last 6 months or so.


----------



## martink0646

ndunlavey said:


> It's very sad that this forum has become so aggressive and nasty in the last 6 months or so.


Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!

If enough people continue to make this observation...............................


----------



## Pete77

ndunlavey said:


> It's very sad that this forum has become so aggressive and nasty in the last 6 months or so.


I find it ironic that a forum member capabale of calling another forum member a "nasty little gob****e" should be the one to make such an entirely sanctimonious comment. :down: :down: :down:


----------



## ndunlavey

I speak as I find, Pete, and am rude only only when provoked. If I remember correctly, that incident was provoked by you accusing me of lying, and abusing my professional standing. If you don't want to be called out, you shouldn't taunt.
As I say, it's only in the last six months or so I've seen this deterioration in manners here. The change in behaviour has largely driven me away - I used to be much more active here, but now am largely demotoivated from providing help to others for fear of being taunted by the nouveau regime.


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

ndunlavey said:


> It's very sad that this forum has become so aggressive and nasty in the last 6 months or so.


All I did was wear a vest !


----------



## ndunlavey

It's been the same one for a while now. Do you think it's time you changed it?


----------



## cwaring

What, the photo or the vest?


----------



## ndunlavey

Well, the vest. It might be a bit smelly by now.


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

ndunlavey said:


> Well, the vest. It might be a bit smelly by now.


I can do that... Give me a moment...


----------



## ndunlavey

What are you going to do - advertise the old one on eBay as fully working TiVo?


----------



## PaulWilkinsUK

ndunlavey said:


> What are you going to do - advertise the old one on eBay as fully working TiVo?


Probably has more life than the one that Pete bought !


----------



## ericd121

ndunlavey said:


> It's very sad that this forum has become so aggressive and nasty in the last 6 months or so.


There is a possible solution to bring the forum back to its previous harmony.

If every person who was offended, or angered, by a post used the Report Post link, it would become obvious to the moderators which posters were the biggest problems, and hopefully sanctions would follow.

It does require self-discipline not to post off-topic, or to bate other users, but it's worth the effort.


----------



## Pete77

ericd121 said:


> It does require self-discipline not to post off-topic, or to *bate other users*, but it's worth the effort.


So no bating intended there then Eric?


----------

