# TiVo Stream to iPad Freezes



## epstewart

I just purchased a Roamio Plus. When I use the TiVo iPad app with its internal TiVo Stream, I get occasional "lockups" or "freezes" where play stops with a still frame remaining visible on the screen. It never starts back up. I have to touch "Done" and re-initiate play to get things going again. Just hitting pause and then play doesn't fix it.

Anyone else have the same problem?

I have not found this problem to be reproducible at any particular point in any particular program.

Might it be a network problem? I use an Actiontec router from Verizon FiOS for WiFi. It's also a MoCA router. AFAIK, the network is working fine, and the iPad app's broadband speed test shows excellent bandwidth numbers of over 30 Mbps.

I have to assume there is some "hiccup" somewhere that triggers the lockup. I wonder if some of the technically inclined contributors to this forum have any suggestions as to how I might figure out what is really going on?

Thanks.


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## jayerndl

epstewart said:


> I just purchased a Roamio Plus. When I use the TiVo iPad app with its internal TiVo Stream, I get occasional "lockups" or "freezes" where play stops with a still frame remaining visible on the screen. It never starts back up. I have to touch "Done" and re-initiate play to get things going again. Just hitting pause and then play doesn't fix it.
> 
> Anyone else have the same problem?
> 
> I have not found this problem to be reproducible at any particular point in any particular program.
> 
> Might it be a network problem? I use an Actiontec router from Verizon FiOS for WiFi. It's also a MoCA router. AFAIK, the network is working fine, and the iPad app's broadband speed test shows excellent bandwidth numbers of over 30 Mbps.
> 
> I have to assume there is some "hiccup" somewhere that triggers the lockup. I wonder if some of the technically inclined contributors to this forum have any suggestions as to how I might figure out what is really going on?
> 
> Thanks.


I have the exact same problem with my Roamio Pro and Ipad. This is with local streaming not OOH. This seems to happen more often near the end the show (within the last few minutes). I think I saw another similar thread but there was no resolution in that thread.

Jay


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## epstewart

jayerndl said:


> I have the exact same problem with my Roamio Pro and Ipad. This is with local streaming not OOH. This seems to happen more often near the end the show (within the last few minutes). I think I saw another similar thread but there was no resolution in that thread.
> 
> Jay


Jay,

Yes, I have seen this in other threads, with no resolution. I'd like to reopen and concentrate the topic now.

I echo you in that this seems to be an in-home problem, not OOH. Of course, i have done little OOH, because the WiFi in many places is too slow to accommodate it.

I have, like you, noticed that it often happens at the ends of shows ... but not all of the times it happens seem to be at the show's end.

Last night it happened again, and so I opened the Actiontec router's web page on my iPhone. The iPad's playback was frozen, and I wanted to see how much in-home network traffic was taking place. I assumed there might be little traffic at that point.

But, no. Lots of traffic for these router connections:

Network (Home/Office)
Ethernet
Coax
Broadband Connection (Coax)
Wireless Access Point

But not for:

Broadband Connection (Ethernet)
WAN PPPoE
WAN PPPoE 2

All that's hard for me to interpret. But in general, the fact that numbers of transmitted and received bytes and packets were mounting real fast (after I had reset the numbers to 0) in the same network connection categories as I have noticed are heavily active when playback is going normally on the iPad might mean something. Maybe the iPad app is still receiving new data from TiVo Stream but forgetting to update the screen. Or maybe the system as a whole is stuck in an endless loop of requesting the same data over and over, and never moving on to any new data.

I seem to see that, as one would expect, many different connection types are all active at once when streaming: the network as a whole, wireless, coax, even Ethernet (since I have Ethernet-connected devices, including computers and a MoCA adapter on a TiVo Premiete, I suppose). The only external activity at the time was the TiVo Stream session in question and my iPhone's session with the Actiontec router.

I would like to ask those who know more to chime in on:

How does the TiVo Stream inside the Roamio Plus/Pro fetch data from the Roamio Plus/Pro itself? Does it do so via a network "handshake" as if the TiVo Stream were attached, say, to a different, base Roamio?

Can the better-informed among us offer a better method of "sniffing" the network traffic to diagnose what may be happening before/after playback freezes on the iPad.

Thanks in advance for any and all contributions to the discussion ...

Edit for more info: Further experiments are showing that the router statistics are going up extremely fast for ...

Received bytes on Coax
Sent bytes on Wireless Access Point

... when streaming is working normally (for an HD show).

Makes sense. The router receives a lot of data via coax (MoCA) and sends it back out to the iPad over wireless.

I didn't exactly notice whether this pattern held when playback was frozen. Next time it freezes I'll check ...


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## lgnad

There is a glitch when streaming -via MRS stream- a show that was recording while watching, where a Mini will tell you it "lost connection to the host" with about five minutes to go in the recording and dump you out. You can then immediately go back, hit play on the recording and finish the show right from where you left off.

Although it appears to be a different kind of stream on the surface, using a different piece of hardware (the stream chip/its OS vs the cpu/Tivo OS) to generate the video stream, its likely the same problem... 

(Roamio, simplified is an upgraded Premiere with a Stream also glued in. The Roamio and the Stream inside it are two fully separate little worlds, actually get separate IP addresses and run separate code/operating systems.

The video likely travels from the Roamio's cpu/operating system to its internal stream chip via MRS stream, which re-codes it to the much lower bitrate and then streamed to the Ipad. With about five minutes to go, the MRS stream glitches and ends the data stream in some ugly way... leading to limbo.

My Roamio has the new (early release) software (20.4.1) running, but my Mini does not ... I will try and see later if the error still occurs with this combo.

I just looked and the Stream built into the Roamio also has got a newer software version 19.1.6-USB-6 dated 2/18/14. 
Stand-alone unit has 19.1.4-01-6 dated 11/12/13. (The 1st version that allowed out of home streaming if I remember correctly) I just forced it to call home and restarted it, with no change...

There is no public documentation of the changes in this version of the Stream software that I have seen, unfortunately.


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## epstewart

lgnad said:


> There is a glitch when streaming -via MRS stream- a show that was recording while watching, where a Mini will tell you it "lost connection to the host" with about five minutes to go in the recording and dump you out. You can then immediately go back, hit play on the recording and finish the show right from where you left off.
> 
> Although it appears to be a different kind of stream on the surface, using a different piece of hardware (the stream chip/its OS vs the cpu/Tivo OS) to generate the video stream, its likely the same problem...
> 
> (Roamio, simplified is an upgraded Premiere with a Stream also glued in. The Roamio and the Stream inside it are two fully separate little worlds, actually get separate IP addresses and run separate code/operating systems.
> 
> The video likely travels from the Roamio's cpu/operating system to its internal stream chip via MRS stream, which re-codes it to the much lower bitrate and then streamed to the Ipad. With about five minutes to go, the MRS stream glitches and ends the data stream in some ugly way... leading to limbo.
> 
> My Roamio has the new (early release) software (20.4.1) running, but my Mini does not ... I will try and see later if the error still occurs with this combo.
> 
> I just looked and the Stream built into the Roamio also has got a newer software version 19.1.6-USB-6 dated 2/18/14.
> Stand-alone unit has 19.1.4-01-6 dated 11/12/13. (The 1st version that allowed out of home streaming if I remember correctly) I just forced it to call home and restarted it, with no change...
> 
> There is no public documentation of the changes in this version of the Stream software that I have seen, unfortunately.


lgnad,

Thanks for your contribution. I am especially interested in the fact that you have different software versions than I. I have 20.3.8 on the Roamio Plus and 19.1.4-USB-6 on the internal Stream.

If your updated software fixes the problem, well and good.

I have a Mini that I have yet to use much, since it's hooked to a TV lacking HDMI inputs and I am waiting for a breakout cable kit. So I haven't observed the glitch with MRS on the Mini yet.

I am also interested in the notion that MRS logic is used between the Roamio Plus/Pro and the internal Stream, so the same flaw would account for the glitch on the Mini as on the iPad.

If and when an Android app comes out, and if there has not yet been a fix implemented in the latest software, then we would expect the same glitch to show up there, no?


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## epstewart

As promised, I'll now report on a limbo situation when the stream image froze on my iPad. It happened about two minutes before the end of the latest Cosmos episode. I immediately looked at the traffic monitoring stats provided by my Actiontec router and noted that "received bytes on coax" and "sent bytes on wireless access point" were no longer swiftly climbing. They normally do so when streaming is in progress to the TiVo iPad app.

So I conclude that the TiVo Stream inside the Roamio Plus must have stopped sending data, via coax to the router, then via WiFi to the iPad.

If the speculation earlier in this thread that the process of (MRS) streaming from the Roamio to the Stream must have stalled is correct, that would account for the lack of output from the Stream to the iPad.


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## lgnad

I posted my observation of the difference in the Stream software embedded in the new 20.4.1 software, in the release notes thread, and someone posted a link to a tweet from TivoMargaret that its supposed to specifically fix your freezing problem! 

See the 1st page for the announced updates in 20.4.1, then go to the last page for my post and the response:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=516208

I've got to go to bed now, but I'll try and stress test it soon and I'll update if I figure anything out...


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## epstewart

lgnad said:


> I posted my observation of the difference in the Stream software embedded in the new 20.4.1 software, in the release notes thread, and someone posted a link to a tweet from TivoMargaret that its supposed to specifically fix your freezing problem!
> 
> See the 1st page for the announced updates in 20.4.1, then go to the last page for my post and the response:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=516208
> 
> I've got to go to bed now, but I'll try and stress test it soon and I'll update if I figure anything out...


lgnad,

Great news! The tweet from TiVo Margret indicates she thinks the freezing issue is fixed in the new software. Thanks.

It's not clear whether that refers to the new Roamio software (20.4.1) or the new TiVo Stream software (19.1.6-USB-6) or both working together. You got both in one fell swoop, but will that be true for everyone?

I'll look forward to hearing about your stress test when you have a chance to do it ...


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## Dan203

It's not. I have 20.4.1 and I still get freezes. I never had this before iOS7. I'm not sure if it's iOS7 itself or the app update TiVo released for iOS7, but that's when it broke. I had both a standalone Stream and a Roamio at the time and both started doing this right at that time. So I'm not sure why they would think an update to the TiVo software would fix it.


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## Gromit

I'm thinking of buying a Stream for mostly in-home viewing and occasional out-of-home. But these posts make me doubt that it's going to work well enough to be worth it. I guess I could always return it.


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## twylie

Gromit said:


> I'm thinking of buying a Stream for mostly in-home viewing and occasional out-of-home. But these posts make me doubt that it's going to work well enough to be worth it. I guess I could always return it.


If it fits your needs, I'd suggest trying it. I'm a recent TiVo owner, purchasing a Roamio base + Stream + Mini and using OTA to replace my Comcast setup. So far, I've been very happy. In house streaming has been flawless and out of home has worked well the couple of times I've tried.

I have everything running over Ethernet (Cat5e/6 + Dell gigabit switches) using a Peplink router and a motorola cable modem for Comcast Extreme. Wireless on the iOS devices is served from a Pepwave APOne.

From what I've experienced and read, you'll know within a couple weeks if you're going to have issues. That should give you enough time for a return if needed.


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## epstewart

Dan203 said:


> It's not. I have 20.4.1 and I still get freezes. I never had this before iOS7. I'm not sure if it's iOS7 itself or the app update TiVo released for iOS7, but that's when it broke. I had both a standalone Stream and a Roamio at the time and both started doing this right at that time. So I'm not sure why they would think an update to the TiVo software would fix it.


Dan,

Lots of moving parts ...

You did receive both 20.4.1 for the Roamio and the new TiVo Stream release, right?

My experiments show that when playback freezes on the iPad, the previously large amount of sent/received data appearing in my router stats dries up. Clearly, the Stream must no longer be sending data to the iPad.

That could be because the iPad app has told it not to send more data for some obscure reason.

It could also be for reasons having to do with software bugs on the Stream, or on the containing Roamio box.

Maybe there has been a dropped packet on the network, and the recovery logic is bad between the iPad and the Stream.

If iOS 7 and/or the latest TiVo app are at fault, then possibly some needed "handshake" has not been received by the Stream, which then sits on its hands forever.

But as lgnad points out, similar streaming freezes take place on the Mini, where iPad software isn't to blame. If he's right, then could there be two separate problems?

I hope lgnad tells us about his stress test soon ...


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## Gromit

twylie said:


> If it fits your needs, I'd suggest trying it. I'm a recent TiVo owner, purchasing a Roamio base + Stream + Mini and using OTA to replace my Comcast setup. So far, I've been very happy. In house streaming has been flawless and out of home has worked well the couple of times I've tried.
> 
> I have everything running over Ethernet (Cat5e/6 + Dell gigabit switches) using a Peplink router and a motorola cable modem for Comcast Extreme. Wireless on the iOS devices is served from a Pepwave APOne.
> 
> From what I've experienced and read, you'll know within a couple weeks if you're going to have issues. That should give you enough time for a return if needed.


Thanks for the advice. I may go to Best Buy tonight and pick one up.


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## Dan203

epstewart said:


> You did receive both 20.4.1 for the Roamio and the new TiVo Stream release, right?


Is the Stream update separate? If so how do I know if I got it? I don't have a standalone Stream any more.


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## epstewart

Dan203 said:


> Is the Stream update separate? If so how do I know if I got it? I don't have a standalone Stream any more.


Dan,

I don't know if it's transmitted separately ... Haven't been able to find that out yet ... Have not received either the new Roamio release 20.4.1 or the new Stream release 19.1.6-USB-6 ... lgnad has both but did they come separately or together? Don't know ...

But I'd think it might come separately, since the Stream is technically an independent device.

You can check your Stream release version from the TiVo app, Settings > System Information, with more detail at Settings > System Information > Full System Information. If it says 19.1.4-<something>, it's not the latest.


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## Dan203

OK I've got the new software on both and I still get freezes. So unless there is a new TiVo app to go along with it then thia is not fixed.


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## epstewart

Dan203 said:


> OK I've got the new software on both and I still get freezes. So unless there is a new TiVo app to go along with it then thia is not fixed.


Dan,

OK, thanks for reporting. It's possibly something that TiVo Margret wants to hear directly about? Do we know how to tweet her? See the earlier post in this thread with a link to another thread that links to a tweet of hers which seems to indicate she feels the freezing problem is fixed.

Here is the direct link to her tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/453551096259031040
Her email is

margret at tivo dot com

By the way, do you also have a Mini, and does it get freezes? I have one but cannot really use it 'til I get the breakout adapter kit, which UPS reports is out for delivery today.


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## jimmypowder

Dan203 said:


> OK I've got the new software on both and I still get freezes. So unless there is a new TiVo app to go along with it then thia is not fixed.


I thought you said Tivo ooh streaming worked well for you while you were in Las Vegas.


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## epstewart

jimmypowder said:


> I thought you said Tivo ooh streaming worked well for you while you were in Las Vegas.


Dan can give his response presently, but let me note that it's not clear that the stream-freeze problem affects OOH streaming. Maybe OOH is different enough from in-home streaming that the problem doesn't arise. Maybe it has to do with the use of a proxy server as an intermediary in OOH streaming. I really don't know the answer, but I have certainly wondered why you have to specifically tell the TiVo app  while you are at home  that you want to set up for OOH. Maybe you have to do that while still in range of your TiVo Stream because the Stream does something special at that point  something that as a side effect avoids the freeze problem during OOH sessions.


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## bradleys

I haven't tested the new software update yet... I did see the freeze, and it seemed like the stream was loosing connection with the TiVo.

I didn't notice it consistently at the end of the show though, I could pretty regularly make it happen just by swiping forward several times. 

I will try it out tonight.


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## epstewart

bradleys said:


> I haven't tested the new software update yet... I did see the freeze, and it seemed like the stream was loosing connection with the TiVo.
> 
> I didn't notice it consistently at the end of the show though, I could pretty regularly make it happen just by swiping forward several times.
> 
> I will try it out tonight.


Bradley,

I still am using the old software on all my devices. I just received my TiVo Mini breakout cables and actually streamed an entire show to it from the Roamio Plus for the first time. It was the latest Cosmos, which caused a freeze near its very end when streamed to my iPad. It did not freeze at all when streamed to the Mini.

Interesting that you should say that you seem to be able to trigger a freeze on the iPad at various points in a show by swiping forward several times. I have wondered about that myself. Can skipping over commercials in that way trigger a freeze? Does anyone else have a similar experience? My own experience in inconclusive at this point.


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## Dan203

jimmypowder said:


> I thought you said Tivo ooh streaming worked well for you while you were in Las Vegas.


It did. I never saw a freeze when using OOH.

There is also another big difference between in home and OOH. I use my Stream at night to watch TV in bed as I fall asleep. With in home streaming if the show reaches it's natural end then it allows the iPad to fall asleep. But if it freezes then the iPad remains on with that frozen screen indefinitely. When I was using OOH in Vegas I woke up every morning with the iPad off, but in a few cases there was a dialog up that said something like "connection lost". So it seems that rather then freezing and keeping the iPad on all night it throws an error and still allows it to sleep instead. I wish at the very least the in home streaming would do the same so that the iPad could fall asleep.


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## Dan203

FYI this happened to me last night after swiping back like 3 times in a row. I had to press Done and then restart the show to get it to play again.


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## epstewart

Dan203 said:


> FYI this happened to me last night after swiping back like 3 times in a row. I had to press Done and then restart the show to get it to play again.


Dan,

I'm noticing a pattern where a show gets to about 2 mins. from the end and then freezes, even though it never got frozen before that point. This is in-home, on the iPad. If I press Done and restart the show, it starts from the beginning! Yet of I press Done and restart it at a point earlier on, it restarts from right (or almost) where it left off.

This makes me think maybe there's some faulty synchronization with respect to time codes. One part of the "bucket brigade" thinks the show has reached its end and another part doesn't. Maybe the part that displays the show on the iPad thinks there is a little bit left, but the TiVo Stream or the TiVo itself has meanwhile stopped sending more video because it thinks there is no more left to send.

Maybe the faulty synchronization results from a lot of swiping forward and/or back on the iPad. I also think maybe using the scrubber bar might do the same thing, because a show that I used the scrubber on after it restarted (undesirably) from its beginning hit its freeze point at a slightly different time than before  but it still froze.

If my thinking is right, it might account for the lack of a problem with OOH streaming, since the logic has to be different. OOH uses a proxy server as an intermediary, so maybe the way time codes and synchronization are handled is different.

I imagine you know a lot more about time codes, etc. from your work with VideoReDo. Do you think I might be onto something?


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## moyekj

epstewart, I'm not sure about that, because I've had freezes before on downloads (vs streaming), and using trickplay on downloads should not have any effect on the Stream encoding process. I'll also note that I had a higher occurrence of problems using "Basic" quality downloads vs medium or high.


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> epstewart, I'm not sure about that, because I've had freezes before on downloads (vs streaming), and using trickplay on downloads should not have any effect on the Stream encoding process. I'll also note that I had a higher occurrence of problems using "Basic" quality downloads vs medium or high.


Moyekj,

Interesting.

I'm not as sure about the relationship of trickplay to freezing as I was earlier, because I just watched a show from beginning to end, while streaming in-home to the iPad, and I carefully avoided jumping forward or back or using the scrubber. It still got within a minute or two of the end and then froze. When I restarted it after pressing Done, it restarted from the beginning.

So I still think this particular problem has to do with different parts of the system getting out of sync with other parts with respect to time codes.

I haven't used downloading while at home, so I'll have to do some experiments with it. It seems to me that lower video quality might possibly imply frame dropping, though. Could that tend to produce synchronization problems?


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## moyekj

Yes, experiment with downloading. In particular, if you have a repeatable freeze for a stream, try downloading that show instead to see what happens.
I'm leaning towards this being a problem with iOS side of things and HLS related problem. I documented the three different quality levels in this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=511445

Note that "basic" quality has 5 seconds of video per segment vs "medium" and "high" having 2 seconds per segment. Not sure if that has any correlation to "basic" quality being more susceptible to freezing or not, but it is one of the big differences between quality levels...
(Note that in home streaming is equivalent to "high" quality download from what I've seen).

Plus it seems like there may be 2 types of freezes: the ones that happen in random parts of a show vs those that happen towards last 2 minutes - I think the freezes at end of show seem to be a lot more common than the latter.


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## jimmypowder

Here's my latest Tivo stream problem .


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> Yes, experiment with downloading. In particular, if you have a repeatable freeze for a stream, try downloading that show instead to see what happens.
> I'm leaning towards this being a problem with iOS side of things and HLS related problem. I documented the three different quality levels in this thread:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=511445
> 
> Note that "basic" quality has 5 seconds of video per segment vs "medium" and "high" having 2 seconds per segment. Not sure if that has any correlation to "basic" quality being more susceptible to freezing or not, but it is one of the big differences between quality levels...
> (Note that in home streaming is equivalent to "high" quality download from what I've seen).
> 
> Plus it seems like there may be 2 types of freezes: the ones that happen in random parts of a show vs those that happen towards last 2 minutes - I think the freezes at end of show seem to be a lot more common than the latter.


Moyekj,

Excellent input. I will make said experiments ASAP (having a busy morning today) and post back. I also think there must be (at least) two types of freezes, so it's a complex subject. I am new to the term HLS but I gather it means HTTP Live Streaming and refers to "an adaptive streaming communications protocol created by Apple to communicate with iOS and Apple TV devices and Macs running OSX in Snow Leopard or later." I found that at

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Artic.../What-is-HLS-(HTTP-Live-Streaming)-78221.aspx

for those who want to know more.

That page says "audio/video streams must be segmented into chunks in an MPEG-2 transport stream," so I assume that's what you mean by segments. I'm not sure how you determined how many seconds there are per segment in the various quality settings, but I have yet to follow up that link you included, so maybe I'll find out more when I do. But it sure sounds like a real possibility that the difference between Basic quality at 5 sec. per segment and Medium and High qualities at 2 sec. per segment might explain why freezing problems are more frequent with Basic quality downloads. I'll mull that over as I make my tests. Thanks.


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## ddonohue

I appreciate you guys looking into this as it is something I've put up with for months. I've posted my experience in the other thread, the "streaming stops before the end" thread. I see freezes very frequently in the final minutes of shows, but only very rarely in the middle. Those times in the middle could very likely be a different issue related to changing resolutions during commercials, I don't know.

Just to throw in my two cents, in case it helps narrow the issue and prevents you from going too far afield, I'm 99% certain this is not a streaming issue but an app issue. I believe it was introduced either when the app was updated or when iOS 7 came out.

I say that because I have had it happen on both streamed recordings (not live shows, that's never been a problem) AND on downloaded recordings.

At one time I thought it still _could _be a streaming issue even for downloads, in the sense that perhaps the stream was screwing up during the download and resulting in a corrupted downloaded show.

However, if that were the case I would expect the behavior of the download to be consistent when you try to watch it, and it's not. It won't always freeze at the same spot. If you stop and start it and fast-forward and fiddle with it enough, you'll find that there is additional content in the recording that is past the point at which it initially froze. It almost seems as if the app buffers a minute or two of data and sometimes it just doesn't play it all the way through for some reason before it decides it's reached the end.

For the record, I see this with a Premiere, a Stream, and an iPad 2, in-home and HD quality only.


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## epstewart

jimmypowder said:


> View attachment 20730
> 
> 
> Here's my latest Tivo stream problem .


Jimmy,

Hmmmmm, it looks like the mysterious error occurred while you were streaming a show "live," i.e., while it was being recorded on the TiVo. Have you gotten the error more than once?


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## jimmypowder

epstewart said:


> Jimmy,
> 
> Hmmmmm, it looks like the mysterious error occurred while you were streaming a show "live," i.e., while it was being recorded on the TiVo. Have you gotten the error more than once?


A few times ,along with the setup screen coming up aborting me watching a show ,along with numerous other errors.

Ill wait to use ooh streaming when hopefully Tivo fixes all the bugs.

By the way , my current home speedtests are 160/20 mbps. Quite fast though i really want 50 mbps upload.


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## epstewart

ddonohue said:


> I appreciate you guys looking into this as it is something I've put up with for months. I've posted my experience in the other thread, the "streaming stops before the end" thread. I see freezes very frequently in the final minutes of shows, but only very rarely in the middle. Those times in the middle could very likely be a different issue related to changing resolutions during commercials, I don't know.
> 
> Just to throw in my two cents, in case it helps narrow the issue and prevents you from going too far afield, I'm 99% certain this is not a streaming issue but an app issue. I believe it was introduced either when the app was updated or when iOS 7 came out.
> 
> I say that because I have had it happen on both streamed recordings (not live shows, that's never been a problem) AND on downloaded recordings.
> 
> At one time I thought it still _could _be a streaming issue even for downloads, in the sense that perhaps the stream was screwing up during the download and resulting in a corrupted downloaded show.
> 
> However, if that were the case I would expect the behavior of the download to be consistent when you try to watch it, and it's not. It won't always freeze at the same spot. If you stop and start it and fast-forward and fiddle with it enough, you'll find that there is additional content in the recording that is past the point at which it initially froze. It almost seems as if the app buffers a minute or two of data and sometimes it just doesn't play it all the way through for some reason before it decides it's reached the end.
> 
> For the record, I see this with a Premiere, a Stream, and an iPad 2, in-home and HD quality only.


ddonohue,

Thanks for your useful input. You mention freezes toward the end of the recording and, happening less often, freezes at various places in the middle. These happen while watching downloads and while watching active streams, so very likely the iPad's iOS software or its TiVo app is the culprit. I'm about to do my first experiments with downloads, so I'll post back with my experiences. I'll do mainly HD downloads, but the show I downloaded last night and am only now getting a chance to watch was in SD, so maybe it will not give me any freezes.


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## epstewart

jimmypowder said:


> A few times ,along with the setup screen coming up aborting me watching a show ,along with numerous other errors.
> 
> Ill wait to use ooh streaming when hopefully Tivo fixes all the bugs.
> 
> By the way , my current home speedtests are 160/20 mbps. Quite fast though i really want 50 mbps upload.


Jimmy,

I can't say I have had the same exact problem as you, so I guess I need more information as to what your setup looks like.

You really do have fast download speeds, and much faster than mine, so who is your provider?


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> Yes, experiment with downloading. In particular, if you have a repeatable freeze for a stream, try downloading that show instead to see what happens.
> I'm leaning towards this being a problem with iOS side of things and HLS related problem. I documented the three different quality levels in this thread:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=511445
> 
> Note that "basic" quality has 5 seconds of video per segment vs "medium" and "high" having 2 seconds per segment. Not sure if that has any correlation to "basic" quality being more susceptible to freezing or not, but it is one of the big differences between quality levels...
> (Note that in home streaming is equivalent to "high" quality download from what I've seen).
> 
> Plus it seems like there may be 2 types of freezes: the ones that happen in random parts of a show vs those that happen towards last 2 minutes - I think the freezes at end of show seem to be a lot more common than the latter.


moyekj,

I generated an in-home, basic-quality download that exhibits the typical freeze in the last couple of minutes when played. It always freezes in the exact same place, whether or not I have used the scrubber bar or swiped forward/back during play, or just played it straight through from start to finish. If I press Done at the freeze point, which is actually approx. 1 min. from the end, and then restart play, it starts over from the beginning.

It is as though the final approx. 1 min. of the show never downloaded.

The similarity to the same sort of problem during streaming, as opposed to downloading, is apparent.

I would like to ask you how you obtained the statistics in your original post at

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=511445

I figure that if I could learn the number of segments in my downloaded file etc., I might be able to nail down whether the whole file downloaded. I would then re-download the show and see

(a) whether it again exhibits a freeze
(b) whether the freeze point is the same
(c) whether the file size and number of segments are the same

If I somehow manage to find that the entire file downloads each time, even when there is a freeze point, that would indicate a different sort of problem with the iPad app than if the freeze is caused by not having the entire file in the first place.

I will also experiment with downloading the same show at the other video quality settings.

Thanks.


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## moyekj

epstewart, to get statistics for downloads or streams use the following URL in a browser while streaming/downloading:


Code:


http://<STREAMIP>:49152/sysinfo

Then click on "Client" button.
For segments you'll see the "Current Segment" line is continually refreshed. At end of the stream/download you'll have the approximate total number of segments transferred.


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> epstewart, to get statistics for downloads or streams use the following URL in a browser while streaming/downloading:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> http://<STREAMIP>:49152/sysinfo
> 
> Then click on "Client" button.
> For segments you'll see the "Current Segment" line is continually refreshed. At end of the stream/download you'll have the approximate total number of segments transferred.


moyekj,

Thanks. More tests will follow.

I am using iPad Safari as my browser for this, by the way, and it looks like the System Information shown in the browser doesn't change until I switch back to the TiVo app and then switch back again to the browser. It looks like the download is suspended while I do not have the TiVo app visible on the screen.


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## ddonohue

epstewart said:


> moyekj,
> 
> I generated an in-home, basic-quality download that exhibits the typical freeze in the last couple of minutes when played. It always freezes in the exact same place, whether or not I have used the scrubber bar or swiped forward/back during play, or just played it straight through from start to finish. If I press Done at the freeze point, which is actually approx. 1 min. from the end, and then restart play, it starts over from the beginning.
> 
> It is as though the final approx. 1 min. of the show never downloaded.
> 
> The similarity to the same sort of problem during streaming, as opposed to downloading, is apparent.
> 
> I would like to ask you how you obtained the statistics in your original post at
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=511445
> 
> I figure that if I could learn the number of segments in my downloaded file etc., I might be able to nail down whether the whole file downloaded. I would then re-download the show and see
> 
> (a) whether it again exhibits a freeze
> (b) whether the freeze point is the same
> (c) whether the file size and number of segments are the same
> 
> If I somehow manage to find that the entire file downloads each time, even when there is a freeze point, that would indicate a different sort of problem with the iPad app than if the freeze is caused by not having the entire file in the first place.
> 
> I will also experiment with downloading the same show at the other video quality settings.
> 
> Thanks.


epstewart, thanks for working on this. Interesting that it did it in basic quality, I haven't streamed many, if any, recordings like that.

Most of your description matches my experience - if I hit Done at the freeze point and then play it again, it begins at the beginning. I also get it whether I have FF'ed or not.

However, there is one difference in regard to your observation that it seemed the download was incomplete. I'd encourage you to go back and play with it a little more to be sure about this. I am 100% certain that there is more to the show that has been downloaded past the freeze point.

When the issue occurs, I can hit done and then replay the recording, use the round "scrubber" or whatever we are calling it to advance to a point close to the freeze point (not past it) and can get a little bit more of the show. I have never been able to get to the end, but I think you'll find that if you fiddle with this technique enough you'll see what I mean.

Because of the lack of fine control using the bar, it's hard to get exactly to the freeze point, so it seems like it will play for maybe 10 seconds or so from the new "play from this point" spot into the "freeze zone," but there is definitely a portion of the show past the original freeze point that is just not being played.

Hope this helps.


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## moyekj

epstewart said:


> moyekj,
> 
> Thanks. More tests will follow.
> 
> I am using iPad Safari as my browser for this, by the way, and it looks like the System Information shown in the browser doesn't change until I switch back to the TiVo app and then switch back again to the browser. It looks like the download is suspended while I do not have the TiVo app visible on the screen.


 Use the browser of a different device while streaming. I use Firefox on my Windows laptop.


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> Use the browser of a different device while streaming. I use Firefox on my Windows laptop.


I have finally managed to find some time to do further tests of the problem where streaming a show or downloading it to the TiVo app leads to a playback freeze in the final two minutes of the show. Here are my main conclusions:

There is quite definitely a problem with freezes near the ends of certain shows when they are being streamed, or else when they are downloaded using Basic quality, to the TiVo app on the iPad.

The exact freeze point is constant and replicable with Basic-quality downloads, whether or not the show is being actively watched on the iPad as it is downloading. On the other hand, the exact freeze point varies, albeit slightly, when streaming (but without downloading) the show, depending possibly on how the scrubber bar and forward/back skipping have been used as the show is being streamed.

Nonetheless, a freeze point for streaming or for downloading tends to show up (if one shows up at all) in the final segment of the stream as being displayed in real time in the system information stats. I have to wonder if the source of the problem might have to do with how the final segment is being handled.

Medium-quality and Best-quality downloads don't seem to be affected by the freeze problem at all.

Not all shows exhibit freeze problems. It may turn out, subject to further testing, that HD recordings are more prone to the freeze problem than SD shows. Also, it is not yet certain whether all programs that freeze when they are downloaded also freeze when they are streamed, or vice versa.

Because streaming uses 1280x720 encoding, performed by the TiVo Stream, and Basic-quality downloading uses 544x400 encoding  at least for the show I used in my tests  the freeze problem cannot be attributed to any one particular encoding resolution. 1280x720 encoding is also used for Best-quality downloading, which exhibits no freeze problem, and so the encoding resolution being used per se cannot be blamed for the freeze problem.

It is hard to tell whether the source of the freezing can be attributed to the TiVo app. Possibly the TiVo Stream is doing something wrong. But possibly not; it could be the case that the TiVo Stream is behaving flawlessly, and the TiVo app is creating the problem all by itself. Also in the mix is the behavior of iOS 7, which the TiVo app depends on as its operating system.

One thing which I seem to have eliminated from possible blame is my home WiFi/MoCA network, based on an Actiontec router from Verizon FiOS. I find no reason to think that network problems are associated with playback freezes when streaming/downloading to the TiVo app.

Finally, the problem is clearly not isolated to older versions of TiVo software for the Roamio series or the TiVo Stream. The latest software versions, which I received as I was doing my testing, do not correct the problem.

That's about it for now. I can provide additional details if anyone wants them.


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## moyekj

epstewart said:


> Medium-quality and Best-quality downloads don't seem to be affected by the freeze problem at all.


 That's an interesting finding and may be a viable workaround to the freeze problem. I've suggested using that as a workaround a few times. It's not too bad of a workaround as you don't have to wait for a download to complete before you start watching. Just let it buffer enough to stay ahead of commercials. Not as convenient as streaming, but if it avoids the stream problem it's worth it. One other possibility if getting freezes is set the pause point to just before freeze point and then do a resume download to see rest of the show if you started off streaming it.


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> That's an interesting finding and may be a viable workaround to the freeze problem. I've suggested using that as a workaround a few times. It's not too bad of a workaround as you don't have to wait for a download to complete before you start watching. Just let it buffer enough to stay ahead of commercials. Not as convenient as streaming, but if it avoids the stream problem it's worth it.


Good point!



moyekj said:


> One other possibility if getting freezes is set the pause point to just before freeze point and then do a resume download to see rest of the show if you started off streaming it.


An even better point!

I am hoping that this thread and other posts that talk about freezes when streaming or when downloading at Basic quality are being noted by TiVo Margret and others at TiVo HQ. Now that I am clear that the problem has nothing to do with my home network, I am equally clear that a fix ought to be forthcoming from TiVo Inc.

It might well involve changes to the TiVo app for iOS ... and if there is an app for Android someday, it will be interesting to see whether the problem shows up there as well.

Or maybe changes to the TiVo Stream software will suffice.

Or maybe both sides of the streaming process will need some modification. It's clear from my tests that something in the Basic-quality downloaded file induces the TiVo app to freeze near the very end of the recording, and that may indicate that there is a fundamental "disagreement" over how the TiVo Stream ought to encode the video stream for use by the TiVo app.

My tests have also shown the Basic-quality download problem to be constant and replicable with any affected recorded show, with it being relatively easy to find and record such a show. That means TiVo's software gurus ought to have a reasonably easy time obtaining shows to test possible fixes with. A fix therefore ought to be forthcoming soon, I have to believe!


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## moyekj

FYI, I had a classic freeze in last minutes of an in home stream this morning. So I clicked done and then played again and as usual the stream played from start. So then I use the slide bar to set pause point just before the freeze point and then stopped the stream and did a resume download (best quality). That worked fine and was able to finish watching the program that way.

So, for non copy-protected recordings this is a viable workaround to the freeze problem. Luckily my cable company only copy protects premium channels which I don't subscribe to, so I can download everything I record.


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## epstewart

moyekj said:


> FYI, I had a classic freeze in last minutes of an in home stream this morning. So I clicked done and then played again and as usual the stream played from start. So then I use the slide bar to set pause point just before the freeze point and then stopped the stream and did a resume download (best quality). That worked fine and was able to finish watching the program that way.
> 
> So, for non copy-protected recordings this is a viable workaround to the freeze problem. Luckily my cable company only copy protects premium channels which I don't subscribe to, so I can download everything I record.


I think I understand you as saying:

(1) You stream the show until it encounters a freeze point very near the end.

(2) You press Done.

(3) You re-initiate "Watch on iPad" to begin streaming again, at which time streaming starts over at the beginning.

(4) You pause playback.

(5) You use the scrubber bar to move to a point just before the freeze point. The playback is still paused.

(6) You press Done again.

(6) You press the Download button.

(7) When asked if you want to download from the Pause Point or from the Beginning, you say to download from the Pause Point. In the same dialog, you say to download at Best quality.

That allows you to finish watching the program. It works for all programs except copy-protected ones.

Did I get that right? It sounds like a good procedure.

Thanks.


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## moyekj

Yes, that's a good detailed summary of the workaround.


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## lgnad

IOS 7.1.1 came out today. You guys should give it a shot! 

Its advertised as "improvements, bug fixes, and security updates", with touch ID updates, keyboard and bluetooth updates particularly noted.

I was hoping it would stop my Ipad 4 from crashing regularly when switching tasks. It seemed more stable until i just fast-switched twice... and crash. <sigh>


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## epstewart

lgnad said:


> IOS 7.1.1 came out today. You guys should give it a shot!
> 
> Its advertised as "improvements, bug fixes, and security updates", with touch ID updates, keyboard and bluetooth updates particularly noted.
> 
> I was hoping it would stop my Ipad 4 from crashing regularly when switching tasks. It seemed more stable until i just fast-switched twice... and crash. <sigh>


OK, I just downloaded 7.1.1. Thanks for the heads up!


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## moyekj

Don't get your hopes up though. I had a freeze last night after installing 7.1.1 and had to use the download workaround again.


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