# Viewing your Free Disk Space



## SirDucky

In the settings section, it would be nice to show the amount of free space left on TIVO. The reason is this would show you if you need to purchase your external hard drive option.


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## chip_r

Very frequently requested item here but never implemented.

Just turn on Tivo Suggestions and you'll roughly get the number of free hours on your Tivo. Anyway, I've found Tivo Suggestions does an excellent job of finding shows you may want to watch.


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## curlyroller

it is just absurd that tivo lacks this feature. my old time warner dvr did it just fine. i know tivo CAN do it. so it irritates me that they wont.


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## steve614

I read a post around here somewhere that someone made that kinda made sense.

Paraphrasing: It would be hard for the Tivo to calculate free disk space because it doesn't know when your going to delete shows AND it has to reserve space for future recordings.


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## ontheway

steve614 said:


> I read a post around here somewhere that someone made that kinda made sense.
> 
> Paraphrasing: It would be hard for the Tivo to calculate free disk space because it doesn't know when your going to delete shows AND it has to reserve space for future recordings.


That only makes sense if you want to know how much free space you will have after you record all your future shows, I think what most people want to know is how much free space is there on the tivo at a given moment.

The hard part it seems would be the need to calculate how much space is in the deleted items folder since they aren't really deleted and then adding that to the unused space on the drive.


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## WayneCarter

> That only makes sense if you want to know how much free space you will have after you record all your future shows, I think what most people want to know is how much free space is there on the tivo at a given moment.


What do you consider "free space"?
- the total space not actually occupied by recordings that are within their "Keep Until" date,
- the total space not commited by recordings within the "Keep Until" date and scheduled recordings (if so, for which date do you calculate the "Free Space"?),
- the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List",
- the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List", not including "Recently Deleted",
- the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List", not including "Recently Deleted" and "Suggestions",
- or something else.
Personally, I'm not sure why people want to check their "Free Space" - I wonder if it's because they think _they_ have to manage the free space as on a PC. If it's because they want to check if they have room for upcoming shows while on a trip, that gets into a calculation of scheduled recordings vs items timing off the NPL as described above. If something like this is what is behind the request, I'd say a more effective "desire" would be more choices for "Keep Until" (2 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, n days, ... ) and/or a "Vacation mode" (eg check that all recordings for the next n-days will fit, and ensure they will be kept at least 2 days after the return date), a set of "watched" flags that could be used by family members to indicate they have (or want to) watch this show.


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## lrhorer

ontheway said:


> That only makes sense if you want to know how much free space you will have after you record all your future shows, I think what most people want to know is how much free space is there on the tivo at a given moment.


That's easy. The answer is, "Zero". The other DVRs can handle this easily and without much fuss becasue they lack one of the greatest features of the TiVo: Suggestions. With suggestions on and unless your TiVo is rather new or you have just permanently deleted a bunch of scheduled recordings, the TiVo will essentially always be brimming full with stuff you like, whether you specifically asked for all of it or not. Since there is no real reason to turn off suggestions, the TiVo is always full.


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## GBL

curlyroller said:


> it is just absurd that tivo lacks this feature. my old time warner dvr did it just fine. i know tivo CAN do it. so it irritates me that they wont.


Yes, my SA8300HD has that feature too - a simple bar graph showing percentage used. Only reason to look at though is to make sure there is room - otherwise when the SA8300HD approaches 100% it STOPS RECORDING!!!! (Yes, the option to delete when needed is turned on - it just doesn't work).

On the TiVo it's not necessary to ever know - it can always be full and still recording more, just automatically deleting the oldest recording.


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## bcwaller

WayneCarter said:


> What do you consider "free space"?
> - the total space not actually occupied by recordings that are within their "Keep Until" date,
> - the total space not commited by recordings within the "Keep Until" date and scheduled recordings (if so, for which date do you calculate the "Free Space"?),
> - the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List",
> - the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List", not including "Recently Deleted",
> - the space not currently occupied by items on the "Now Playing List", not including "Recently Deleted" and "Suggestions",
> - or something else.
> Personally, I'm not sure why people want to check their "Free Space" - I wonder if it's because they think _they_ have to manage the free space as on a PC. If it's because they want to check if they have room for upcoming shows while on a trip, that gets into a calculation of scheduled recordings vs items timing off the NPL as described above. If something like this is what is behind the request, I'd say a more effective "desire" would be more choices for "Keep Until" (2 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, n days, ... ) and/or a "Vacation mode" (eg check that all recordings for the next n-days will fit, and ensure they will be kept at least 2 days after the return date), a set of "watched" flags that could be used by family members to indicate they have (or want to) watch this show.


I'd say the definition is very easy. Free space is the amount available for actual user selected recordings. It might be equal to the amount of space taken by the suggestions, assuming they are on. In fact, that is how I check to see how close I am to losing a show that I myself recorded.

I will agree that the real solution could be a way to look ahead and guess how many days until full or something like that. I used to do this before I left on vacations with my other DVRs. If I knew I'd need 13 hours of space, I could easily check and see. The big complication compared to the old DVRs is that the TiVo really does not know how much space each recording will take without a database of channels and such. All my recordings are digital, but one 60 minute show will be gigabytes different than another, which really makes the guessing hard.

On average, it could take some guesses, but I could see people being more upset when it is wrong than they are at not knowing and having to take their own manual guess.


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## WayneCarter

> I'd say the definition is very easy. Free space is the amount available for actual user selected recordings.


Then "free space" is the total space not actually occupied by recordings that are within their "Keep Until" date. It seems TiVo checks its "free space" (by the above definition) each time a new recording or season pass is set-up - at least, I have occasionally been notified that "to record 'X', TiVo will have to delete 'Y' on '[date]' to make room" (inexact quote).


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## bcwaller

That makes sense. I've never seen this message, but then I've only had a TiVo for two months or so. The ReplayTV greys out shows at risk of deletion when "free space" gets low so you can see at a glance what will be deleted (or what you should watch) if you don't free up some space.


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## WayneCarter

> I've never seen this message, but then I've only had a TiVo for two months or so.


The only times I have seen is when I've had or have scheduled a bunch of shows flagged as "Keep Until I Delete".

Our default recording "quality" is "Medium", we use our PC disk farm (over 1TB) for storage of anything TiVo'd that we want to keep for a while or DVD-ize it for "permanent" storage, and delete things as watch them - so the system never gets close to having recording conflicts unless we will be away for a few weeks and have setup a lot of shows as KUID so they'll be there when we return. The TiVo actually has warned me when scheduling show 'X' that it won't be able to fit when it gets recorded even if it isn't scheduled to be recorded until a week of two later.


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## dtpetty

I agree with all of the comments above. HOWEVER, many TiVo couch potatoes are also techies, and this box *is* basically a computer with a harddrive and we would like to know the free HDD space in some form or other.
I will swear that when I first got one my TiVos (I have 2), that in _System Information_ there was a ~% disk space used (or free). It is not there now.
BTW - the stupidest thing TiVo does not do, that I understand most all other DVRs do, is to cache the entire current program, instead of just the last 30 min. DUMB & occasionly very irrating when you miss the first 18 min of a 1 hr show.


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## mrkrandall

I may be new to the forum, but I have had TIVO for a while now. Loved the 1st one so much I bought another (both Lifetime subscriptions of course). I Networked them, tell them what to record from over the internet, tell them what to download for me to watch latter (love that CNET download). Could even, if time wasn't so precious, have TIVO to go!! So why can't I know how much space I have left? or don't have left? whichever is more correct I don't care. Will my TIVO loose money I have the this knowledge? I think not.

I love TIVO too !!!! I just get annoyed when they don't listen. They provide all this wonderful content. Even if I had picture in picture in picture and four brains with seven sets of eyes, there isn't enough time in the day to view it all. So, like everyone else, I TIVO IT!!!! Some things I season pass and want to keep to watch all at once (throw back to watching the STAR WARS Trilogy.. oops dated myself).

I mark things "DO NOT DELETE" and TIVO is kind enough not too, thanks lil' buddy. Problem is it doesn't warn me that stuff won't get recorded because I'm behind on sitting on my behind. wait for it.... ok

Even if the gauge / meter / indicator lied to me I think I would feel better than having no clue at all as to the remaining space. I know SP mode uses more disk space than EP (I've had a few VCR's... I get it!). BUT if TIVO is a little computer recording stuff, it must know where EOT (End Of Tape) is. For as dumb as a VCR was/is it knew how much tape was left on the spool.

I'll stop for now... Next time maybe we can talk about this lack of warning that something won't be recorded unless you micro manage the lil guy. Or maybe that when they system does a update, that it doesn't reboot itself and you miss a show because ... Sorry, those are for latter.

Thanks for listening, forgive the spelling


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## jbcooley

I've written a very simple application that can display estimated free space through the "Music, Photos, and more" menu. The application requires bonjour to be installed before it will work. You can find the installer for TivoDiskUsage as well as the source at my google code project.

This application is built on the hme for .net sdk announced here


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## WayneCarter

jbcooley said:


> I've written a very simple application that can display estimated free space through the "Music, Photos, and more" menu. The application requires bonjour to be installed before it will work. You can find the installer for TivoDiskUsage as well as the source at my google code project.
> 
> This application is built on the hme for .net sdk announced here


What does your app consider "free space"? See post 6 in this thread.

The benefit of your app for a given potential user depends on how the TiVo is used and how it create "free space".


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## jbcooley

WayneCarter said:


> What does your app consider "free space"? See post 6 in this thread.


My app groups space into one of seven categories.
In Progress
Save until I delete
Current
Expires Soon
Expired
Suggestion
Estimated Free (based on maximum space ever consumed for this tivo)

This is displayed in a pie chart in that order. While Estimated Free is not going to display much with suggestions turned on, you can easily see what you consider free space due to the grouping of the pie slices.

This application is just something I wrote to demo my library. If someone prefers a different display, I'd be open to suggestions.


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## WayneCarter

mrkrandall said:


> I may be new to the forum, but I have had TIVO for a while now. Loved the 1st one so much I bought another (both Lifetime subscriptions of course). I Networked them, tell them what to record from over the internet, tell them what to download for me to watch latter (love that CNET download). Could even, if time wasn't so precious, have TIVO to go!! So why can't I know how much space I have left? or don't have left? whichever is more correct I don't care. Will my TIVO loose money I have the this knowledge? I think not.
> 
> I love TIVO too !!!! I just get annoyed when they don't listen. They provide all this wonderful content. Even if I had picture in picture in picture and four brains with seven sets of eyes, there isn't enough time in the day to view it all. So, like everyone else, I TIVO IT!!!! Some things I season pass and want to keep to watch all at once (throw back to watching the STAR WARS Trilogy.. oops dated myself).
> 
> I mark things "DO NOT DELETE" and TIVO is kind enough not too, thanks lil' buddy. Problem is it doesn't warn me that stuff won't get recorded because I'm behind on sitting on my behind. wait for it.... ok
> 
> Even if the gauge / meter / indicator lied to me I think I would feel better than having no clue at all as to the remaining space. I know SP mode uses more disk space than EP (I've had a few VCR's... I get it!). BUT if TIVO is a little computer recording stuff, it must know where EOT (End Of Tape) is. For as dumb as a VCR was/is it knew how much tape was left on the spool.
> 
> I'll stop for now... Next time maybe we can talk about this lack of warning that something won't be recorded unless you micro manage the lil guy. Or maybe that when they system does a update, that it doesn't reboot itself and you miss a show because ... Sorry, those are for latter.
> 
> Thanks for listening, forgive the spelling


The only way I know of in which a healthy TiVo will not record something scheduled is if there is too much content flagged KUID. On the few instances where I have been in this situation, TiVo warned me that "[X] wouldn't be recorded". I can't say that the warning shows up in ALL cases but it does in SOME cases.

Obviously, the "solution" is to reduce use of KUID. If the TiVo(s) are on a home network, you can use the computer's harddrive for long-term storage and free up some of TiVo's storage. Why are you using KUID so much? Maybe you need to give your TiVo a harddrive upgrade.


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## WayneCarter

> My app groups space into one of seven categories.
> In Progress
> Save until I delete
> Current
> Expires Soon
> Expired
> Suggestion
> Estimated Free (based on maximum space ever consumed for this tivo)
> 
> This is displayed in a pie chart in that order. While Estimated Free is not going to display much with suggestions turned on, you can easily see what you consider free space due to the grouping of the pie slices.


Would "Recently Deleted" help any? (Assuming RD is even accessible)


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## jbcooley

WayneCarter said:


> Would "Recently Deleted" help any? (Assuming RD is even accessible)


Recently Deleted programs don't appear to be available for transfer. I use the hmo protocol to get recording information, and didn't see a way to get that information.


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## classicsat

I have used three Disk usage meters:

Autospace on my S1s.

TiVoWebPlus 

TiVoPlayList on my Series 2s.

The common element is they, in some fashion or another, indicate KUID, regular recordings, Suggestions, and actual free space (including RD).
(TWP in text, the other in a bar or pie chart)

I, if I want to, I can easily interpret Suggestions as free space.


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## jbcooley

Here's a picture of the application running on a series 3 tivo.


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## jbcooley

It appears you have to be logged in to see the attached file. Here is a link to the screen shot on my project page.

http://code.google.com/p/tivo-sdks/wiki/DiskUsage


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## HellFish

Wayne,

What's wrong with jbcooley's example? It seems to cover all of your questions in Post#6. I have a Dtivo, so I can't use his tool. I use TivoWebPlus, which shows the space used & space available in a similar break down. I wish TiVo would bite the bullet and just show us the breakdown of our space. I don't need to know how many hours free I have, I just like to know what % space is available. Every other DVR I've ever seen shows the % of space available, which makes it odd that TiVo does not.

Below is an image of what TWP displays. For each category, it includes:
_*Type of recording*_*-----#of shows-----amt of used memory-----% of used memory-----appx # of hours*



See? Viewing free space is not as complicated as some people here make it sound.


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## WayneCarter

> What's wrong with jbcooley's example?


There's nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, does it really help someone who doesn't understand how TiVo manages disk space and expects a PC/MAC-like free space number? His example shows "0% free" (as would many TiVos, most of the time - both of mine certainly would). "0% free" would appear to mean "forget about being able to record anything else", but my TiVos happily continue to record everything scheduled.

I'm not defending TiVo's lack of disk space reporting. I do feel that "free space" is much less important than it is on conventional computers, and suspect that many who request a "free space" indicator are unfamiliar with TiVo's automatic disk management. Further, given TiVo's automatic disk management functionality, the definition of "free space" is quite personal - I consider "free space" to be "disk space occupied by suggestions, programs on the recently deleted list, and programs which have reached their KU dates - I am generally comfortable with TiVo automatically deleting shows, and am more concerned that it records what is on the "To Do" list. If I don't what something deleted, I set it to KUID and delete it when I no longer need it. Others may only consider disk space not currently occupied by any program (other than programs on the recently deleted list) to be "free" (ie they are most concerned about shows being automatically deleted).

A further reality is TiVo's "forecasting" of its ability to fulfill the "ToDo" list. I, for one, find it far more helpful to know that TiVo "will be unable to record <x> on <y>" or that "<x> will be deleted on <y> so that <z> can be recorded" than it would be to know that (right now) there is <x> "free space" (by any definition).

See? Viewing free space is *more* complicated than some people here think it is.


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## HellFish

I am well aware of with TiVo's automatic disk management. I'm also generally ok with the TiVo deleting stuff as it needs to, but certain situations are rather stressful for a TiVo with more than 1 person using it. A perfect example is those of us that record sporting tournaments. Recording 3-6 three hour events each day for a few weeks can quickly kill any free space you think you have. 


> His example shows "0% free" ... I consider "free space" to be "disk space occupied by suggestions, programs on the recently deleted list, and programs which have reached their KU dates


Looking at the TWP pic I posted, creating one additional line in Space Summary titled "Total Available Disk Space for New Recordings" and including what you have described would be sufficient. I agree, this line would help clarify things for the user. The break down all these homemade programs provide is good because you can see where you have space to spare.


> A further reality is TiVo's "forecasting" of its ability to fulfill the "ToDo" list. I, for one, find it far more helpful to know that TiVo "will be unable to record <x> on <y>" or that *"<x> will be deleted on <y> so that <z> can be recorded"* than it would be to know that (right now) there is <x> "free space" (by any definition).


Do stand alone units have the feature I put in bold? When I had a 40GB drive, I remember only seeing it while setting manual recordings, and it was deleting something before it had a delete flag. I don't think there is a way for me to know what the TiVo has already recorded, has a delete flag set to it, and will be deleting the old show make way for new shows. Knowing if you are running into the problem, by showing what "free space" we have, lets us know if we need to increase our TV viewing!



> See? Viewing free space is *more* complicated than some people here think it is.


Touché. However, I find suggestions useless, and I'm happy I have an option to turn them off. You find any type of hdd space summary useless, but it's obvious others do not.

I think you're suggestion in post 6 might help alleviate some situations "_a set of "watched" flags that could be used by family members to indicate they have (or want to) watch this show._" but that sounds more complicated then the simple feature we are currently requesting.


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## WayneCarter

> ... certain situations are rather stressful for a TiVo with more than 1 person using it. A perfect example is those of us that record sporting tournaments. Recording 3-6 three hour events each day for a few weeks can quickly kill any free space you think you have.


I understand. I'm not sure that a "free space" indicator will really help, but you seem to be, so OK.



> Do stand alone units have the feature I put in bold? When I had a 40GB drive, I remember only seeing it while setting manual recordings, and it was deleting something before it had a delete flag.


It's been a while since I have seen it (or something like it - I don't remember the exact text), but there is (was) a message to the effect that TiVo will have to delete a show early (ie prior to its KU date) in order to record a given new show.



> You find any type of hdd space summary useless, ...


Not at all, but I have doubts as how much a simple "free space" summary will accomplish - at least without a LOT of thought put into its design and implementation.



> I think you're suggestion in post 6 might help alleviate some situations "a set of "watched" flags that could be used by family members to indicate they have (or want to) watch this show." but that sounds more complicated then the simple feature we are currently requesting.


A simple binary word added to the directory record could do a pretty good job. Each user is assigned a bitmask (user-1 = bit0 (1), user-2 = bit1 (2), user-3 = bit 2 (4), ... ). If user-3 indicates he wishes to see a show, his bit is set in the bitmap (map = 4). If user-1 also wants to watch the show, bit 1 also gets set (map now = 5). When user-3 finishes with the show, he "deletes" it, which clears his bit (map then = 1). Since the map is not 0, the show is not deleted. User-1 watches and "deletes" the same show, bit 0 is cleared. Since the map is now zero, the program is deleted.

The complexity would be operational - users would have to identify themselves. On the other hand, having users identify themselves would open the door to a number of other enhancements (personalized wishlists, suggestions, NPLs, etc). Would it be hard to implement - not really. Would it get used much - I doubt it.


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## lrhorer

HellFish said:


> I don't need to know how many hours free I have, I just like to know what % space is available.


And every other individual has some other metric they would like ot apply to the notion of "Free Space"



HellFish said:


> Every other DVR I've ever seen shows the % of space available, which makes it odd that TiVo does not.


No other DVR I have seen can do the things which make the notion of "Free Space" an obsolete and obscure notion. The Tivo can. Top fuel dragsters don't come with curb feelers, either.



HellFish said:


> See? Viewing free space is not as complicated as some people here make it sound.


I think most users who so frequently request a free space indivator would have a coronary - or at leat an apoplectic fit - if they looked at a free space indicator like the one shown above. All they want is something which says, "xx hours free". Note also while the above chart does list expired suggestions, it doesn't show unexpired suggestions, which I think many or perhaps even most people would consider "free". Or not.


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## HellFish

In my last post, I equivocally conceded that the OP and others who use the phrase "Free Space" are probably asking for the wrong feature. A "space summary" would be a better term. I do agree that the summary I displayed is designed more for the geeks, but you can make it less complicated and also make a note that "ALL PERCENTAGES & HOURS AVAILABLE ARE ESTIMATE"

I don't record suggestions, which may be why there is no indication of recent, or "unexpired suggestions" in my snapshot. You are correct, it appears TWP does put recent & "expired" suggestions in 2 categories, but I currently can't confirm this. The only reason I keep 2 suggestions on my Tivo is to show guests one of the features of what the TiVo is capable of. For the sake of this debate, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I just turned suggestions back on, but the 1st suggestion won't record until 10:30. I'll report back the results later this weekend.



lrhorer said:


> No other DVR I have seen can do the things which make the notion of "Free Space" an obsolete and obscure notion. The Tivo can. Top fuel dragsters don't come with curb feelers, either.


Please to explain your statement. What does a Tivo do that makes the notion of free space obsolete that no other DVR service does? Tivo takes advantage of free space with Suggestions, but if Tivo did offer a space summary, any space filled by "Suggested Shows" should still be considered "free space" or "space available for recording". That is, after all, the official Tivo® stance on Suggestions.

And I know more about computers and hard drives than cars, so your analogy doesn't make sense to me. I would think top fuel dragsters still come with gauges to indicate the status of specific liquids they use (fuel, oil, nitrous, etc.), which is more along the lines of what we're asking for. I would consider curb feelers to be more like asking for voice prompts for Tivo's menus. Both of them are for old people .

*note:* I do know what I'm arguing for is a losing battle, if TiVo hasn't offered this "feature" yet, they never will.

*edit:* TWP does separate suggestions into 2 categories.


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## lrhorer

HellFish said:


> Please to explain your statement. What does a Tivo do that makes the notion of free space obsolete that no other DVR service does?


1. It allows the user to decide the hierarchy of deletion in a couple of different ways (KUID, Keep at least..., suggestions, etc.)

2. It makes room for suggestions by deleting suggestions but nothing else. It deletes the oldest suggestions first

3. Unless every existing program is KUID or Keep until..., it deletes first suggestions in chronological order, then expired scheduled programs in chronological order, then unexpired scheduled programs in chronological order. It will never delete a KUID, and won't delete a program specifically tagged as Keep Until... until after it has expired.

4. If the user schedules a program which requires the early deletion of a program not specifically marked as KUID or Keep Until, it warns the user of the impact and specifically which programs will be deleted earlier than expected, excluding suggestions.



HellFish said:


> Tivo takes advantage of free space with Suggestions, but if Tivo did offer a space summary, any space filled by "Suggested Shows" should still be considered "free space" or "space available for recording". That is, after all, the official Tivo® stance on Suggestions.


Well, sort of. Certainly that is one valid way of looking at it, but it is not the only way. In terms of classical PC thinking, it isn't at all what is meant by "Free Space". Free space in the PC world is any regions occupied by a combination of unallocated space and deleted files. The point is, it's quite up to interpretation.



HellFish said:


> And I know more about computers and hard drives than cars, so your analogy doesn't make sense to me. I would think top fuel dragsters still come with gauges to indicate the status of specific liquids they use (fuel, oil, nitrous, etc.)


No, the instrumentation is strictly limited. In a run only lasting 4.5 seconds, the driver has no time to read gauges or act upon their readings. What's more, while the rate of fuel consumption during the run is unbelievable, the total amount of fuel used is still quite small compared to a 500 mile race, and more importantly is quite predictable. They know how much fuel they need for the race (just under 23 gallons, total for warm-up, staging, and run), and barring a fuel system rupture, no dragster ever runs dry on fuel before the finish line. Besides, as I said before, what if it were about to run out of fuel 3 seconds into the 4.5 second race? What are they going to do about it? Pull over to get gas?

Not only that, but at speeds over 300mph, taking one's eyes off the track is a good way to get one's self killed. I'm also not sure how well any driver could read a gauge at 5.7G, especially in only 4.5 seconds. They may have a tach and a manifold pressure gauge, but nothing for the run beyond that, if even that. Most do have oil, engine, supercharger, and exhaust temperature gauges as well as an oil pressure gauge, but these are used prior to the run to make sure the engine is properly warmed up and ready to race, not to tell the driver what's going on.

Top fuel dragsters do not use nitrous. They use exclusively liquid fuel (nitromethane and methyl alcohol). Pro Modified racers are allowed to run either nitrous or a supercharger, but all Top Fuel racers run superchargers with nitromethane fuel.



HellFish said:


> which is more along the lines of what we're asking for. I would consider curb feelers to be more like asking for voice prompts for Tivo's menus. Both of them are for old people .


Well, my point was a little old lady / man car is unlikely to have much muscle, and curb feelers may be handy for that type of car. Like the dragster, the TiVo packs as much muscle is available in its type of machine, and the features of the device and how it is intended to be used make a free space indicator on the TiVo nearly as unnecessary for it as curb feelers on a dragster. I wasn't really talking about who drove them, but rather the capabilities of the machine.


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## lrhorer

By the way, I tried out jbcooley's little utilization app, and as expected all three of my active TiVos show 0% free space.

I have a 360GB TiVo HD, a 1TB Series III, and a 2TB Series III. All three are completely full, yet they will record several thousand programs by the end of the year - far, far more than I'll be able to watch, while being continuously full or nearly so the entire time.


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## lew

lrhorer said:


> By the way, I tried out jbcooley's little utilization app, and as expected all three of my active TiVos show 0% free space.
> 
> I have a 360GB TiVo HD, a 1TB Series III, and a 2TB Series III. All three are completely full, yet they will record several thousand programs by the end of the year - far, far more than I'll be able to watch, while being continuously full or nearly so the entire time.


People who allow tivo to record suggestions, many of us don't, can just look at the number of suggestions on the NPL to get an approximate idea of "available space to record user requests" The rest of us would like see how much free space is available. Tivo could just divide seperate space taken by suggestions and space taken by user requested programs.


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## lrhorer

lew said:


> People who allow tivo to record suggestions, many of us don't, can just look at the number of suggestions on the NPL to get an approximate idea of "available space to record user requests" The rest of us would like see how much free space is available. Tivo could just divide seperate space taken by suggestions and space taken by user requested programs.


That is one possible paradigm for the metric, yes. The salient points are:
1. It's not the only likely paradigm for the metric.

2. Neither it nor any others really give you very much useable information at all unless KUID is set for every program.

Let me put it to you this way. Suppose a metric based upon your formulation said you only had enough "free space" available to fit two hours of programs. What action would you take based upon that information, and why?

The point is, only having two hours of "free space" doesn't mean the TiVo can only record two hours of programs. I suppose you could rush to try to watch several hours of previously recorded programs before they get deleted, or go through and set KUID for several so they don't get deleted, but in that case some of the new programs may not get recorded. This suggests you might better be served to modify your viewing habits or expand your drive space.

The main point is not that it is impossible to come up with some metric for free space, it is that deriving any terribly useful information from such a metric is difficult. It's sort of like measuring the volume of air above the level of your head in your house. OK, you've got a number like 8000 cu ft. What are you going to do with the number?

Oh, and why don't you (or just others if you were speaking imperially) have Suggestions turned on? There is really no down side to having them turned on.


----------



## jbcooley

lrhorer said:


> By the way, I tried out jbcooley's little utilization app, and as expected all three of my active TiVos show 0% free space.


If you look at the screenshot of the app running on my tivo, you'll see I don't have any "free space" either. Because of that, and feedback from others, I'm likely to change that in the future. I'll change the term free space to unused space or something like that. And then offer a setting that allows you to choose what you consider free space.

All that said, I only wrote the thing because many people seem to be interested in seeing the numbers. I don't see the point in arguing about the details.


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## WayneCarter

jbcooley said:


> If you look at the screenshot of the app running on my tivo, you'll see I don't have any "free space" either. Because of that, and feedback from others, I'm likely to change that in the future. I'll change the term free space to unused space or something like that. And then offer a setting that allows you to choose what you consider free space.
> 
> All that said, I only wrote the thing because many people seem to be interested in seeing the numbers. I don't see the point in arguing about the details.


There's nothing wrong with showing "Free Space", it's just not particularly meaningful with TiVo. Most users expect "Free Space" to answer the question "How likely is show <x> to be recorded?" and/or "how likely is show <y> to be deleted?". "Free Space" has little to do with reliably answering either question.


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## tastyratz

I for one really think its obnoxious that this isnt included.
I went from a comcast dvr to tivo and this is a HUGE turn off to me.
Saying its obsolete is clearly very wrong.
A very simple gauge at the top of the recording list showing a percentage would be extremely simple to implement.
Don't bother showing system data and cache, etc. all that crap is unnecessary.
Very simple. 
Recording space
52% used by recordings
33% used by suggestions

You could also show a bar across the screen with free space gray, user recordings green, and tivo suggestions purple.

This would give me a better understanding of my usage and allow me to plan accordingly.
Shows aren't deleted till they need the space for something else. If I could see that % I could say to myself "gee I have a 4 hour hd recording of the game tomorrow. I should probably watch some of these shows before I lose them" a lot better than 
"oh my shows disappeared, must have been the game"


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## lrhorer

tastyratz said:


> I for one really think its obnoxious that this isnt included.


How is it obnoxious? It wouldn't tell you anything really useful if it did have a number.



tastyratz said:


> I went from a comcast dvr to tivo and this is a HUGE turn off to me.


On the Comcast DVR, it means something, and a low space indication means you should probably do something. On the TiVo it doesn't necessarily mean anything.



tastyratz said:


> Saying its obsolete is clearly very wrong.


In what way? How would the information be of use to you?



tastyratz said:


> A very simple gauge at the top of the recording list showing a percentage would be extremely simple to implement.


...and would tell you what? You're also ignoring the other facts brought up in this thread and others.



tastyratz said:


> Recording space


Is essentially always 0.



tastyratz said:


> 52% used by recordings
> 33% used by suggestions


Again, which tells you what? Admittedly, the suggestions pool might be expected to hold fewer programs you would rather not be deleted than the expired recordings, but this is far from certain. Indeed, on my livingroom TiVo it's almost never true. In the theater it's usually true.



tastyratz said:


> This would give me a better understanding of my usage and allow me to plan accordingly.


Plan what?



tastyratz said:


> Shows aren't deleted till they need the space for something else.


But "Free Space" isn't the arbiter of whether the shows will be deleted, unless you have very inefficient viewing habits, or have too small a hard drive. The TiVo doesn't create more time to view TV, it just allows you to view it at a later date, so if you don't want things deleted inadvertantly, then you need to plan to watch as much video every week as gets recorded every week. Of course it's true if the unused space plus the deleted programs space plus the Suggestions space is significantly larger than the space which will be recorded, then no expired scheduled recording will get erased, but knowing the size of the space is not required to prevent having a program accidentally overwritten. In 8 years of owning TiVos, I've never had a program accidentally overwritten because of not knowing how much "free space" there was.



tastyratz said:


> If I could see that % I could say to myself "gee I have a 4 hour hd recording of the game tomorrow. I should probably watch some of these shows before I lose them" a lot better than
> "oh my shows disappeared, must have been the game"


If you are able on a moment's notice to decide to spend 4 hours watching programs, then you are most fortunate, indeed. Merely having a large enough hard drive to hold all the regular backlog plus whatever impulse recording one might schedule eliminates the issue before it ever arises. Since recording sizes up to nearly 300 hours of HD material and over 2000 hours of SD material are readily available for a very modest cost, this is easy to accomplish. Setting KUID judiciously can take care of the rest.

For me personally, up to several dozen shows I haven't yet watched get deleted every day. There's just no way I could ever watch all the great material that's on every day.


----------



## HellFish

lrhorer said:


> On the Comcast DVR, it means something, and a low space indication means you should probably do something. On the TiVo it doesn't necessarily mean anything.


Please explain. If you're referring to your reply in post 30 of this thread, then I don't understand. I wasn't able to confirm all DVRs, but I can confirm Comcast DVRs & DTV's DVRs have the same exact features as the TiVo.

When you set up a Season Pass with these providers, the DVR asks you if you want to delete if space is needed, or if you will delete it yourself.

How is this different from how a TiVo handles recordings? What does low disk space mean on a Comcast DVR that it wouldn't mean on a TiVo? Both the DVRs & the TiVo will delete old shows if need be.

I'd also like to point out that you said "necessarily," which means even you agree there may be instances where you may want to take action, and that is what we (the people requesting the feature) are focusing on. It would be better for the user to be more informed of the situation to prevent the TiVo from doing something you don't want to happen. I don't hear my friends with their Comcast DVRs complaining about the space indicator that is provided. If TiVo implemented this feature, I'm sure there would be threads in here on how to enhance it, but I doubt there would 100s of threads asking for them to take it away.



lrhorer said:


> Admittedly, the suggestions pool might be expected to hold fewer programs you would rather not be deleted than the expired recordings, but this is far from certain. Indeed, on my livingroom TiVo it's almost never true.


I disagree, it is certain the suggestions pool is expected to hold programs you have less regard over. Your concept of shows "you would rather not be deleted" is extremely different from mine. I don't understand your idea, since, as I reference below, you have dozens of shows deleted daily. If you're referring to Suggestions, they aren't even guaranteed to be recorded. Saying you prefer that they not be deleted doesn't make sense to me since you don't know if they will be recorded in the first place.

If you are claiming a space indicator won't work because the space Suggestions take up should be considered "unavailable", TiVo would disagree. TiVo's idea of Suggestions is that they are shows recorded for a temporary amount of time and will be deleted as soon as a new Suggestions comes along, or, more importantly, a normal recording needs the space.

The following 2 comments you made seem to contradict each other. The 2nd one is also the very point of people that want a space indicator (except you are probably talking about Suggestions, where as we are talking about normal recordings):



lrhorer said:


> In 8 years of owning TiVos, I've never had a program accidentally overwritten because of not knowing how much "free space" there was.





lrhorer said:


> For me personally, up to several dozen shows I haven't yet watched get deleted every day.


It's obvious that a space indicator would be useless for someone with your viewing habits, but even though you don't have a need for it, doesn't mean they shouldn't provide it for those of us that would appreciate the "feature."

For me personally, I intend on watching everything that is recorded.

Here is a basic example.


I have 2 season passes, my favorite show, Show1 and a show I like a lot, Show2.

I record and keep every episode of Show1. The Season Pass for this show *is KUID*.

I record and keep every episode of Show2. This Season Pass *is not setup as KUID*.

Although I do not regularly watch Show2, I do want to watch every episode. After I recorded the entire season, I may go through 10-15 episodes of Show2 in the course of a week.

Why don't I have have Show2 setup as KUID? Because I'd rather my TiVo record a new episode of Show1 instead of keeping an unwatched episode of Show2. That being said, I'd like to know if I'm approaching a limit where my TiVo will soon be deleting shows that are flagged as potential deletion.

Why? Suppose I have an option to watch a 2 1/2 hour movie I rented, or 4 episodes of Show2. To help make this decision, I'd like to know the status of available space on the TiVo. If I see Show2 is at risk of being deleted, I may opt to watch it. Or if I see Show2 is at risk, I may go through my collection of episodes of Show1 and see if I can delete a few episodes that I have already viewed, and I would be willing to delete since I now have limited options. If I see Show2 is not at risk, then I'll watch the movie, and worry about Show2 later.

So in this example, how else would I be able to know the pending demise of my Show2s?

Finally, let's go back to your drag car comparison (did you think I would let it go?  ). You have informed us that they don't have gas gauges, but you also said:



lrhorer said:


> Most [drag racing cars] do have oil, engine, supercharger, and exhaust temperature gauges as well as an oil pressure gauge, but these are used prior to the run to make sure the engine is properly warmed up and ready to race, not to tell the driver what's going on.


The gauges may be useless during the 4 second race, but they certainly sound important and do tell the driver or his/her crew what's going on before the race.

In my example above, I would use a space indicator the same way. I wouldn't use it while watching a show, but it would enable me to see if shows are in danger of being deleted before I view them. Just like the drag racer doesn't want to find out during the race that the engine was somehow malfunctioning before the race, and now their car exploded, I don't want to find that my TiVo needed to delete old shows to make room for some new shows after it has already performed the action. This is also the situation tastyratz was referring to in post #36.


----------



## WayneCarter

So you magically have a free space indicator - it will usually read "0%" - what does that tell you? So you add "deletion candidates", say it reads 70% - do you now _know_ that your episode of "show 2" is safe?

OTH If the episode is near the bottom of the time sorted NPL - it's in danger, better watch it, or set it to KUID.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against adding a "Free Space" indicator, I just doubt it will be very useful.


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## ontheway

WayneCarter said:


> So you magically have a free space indicator - it will usually read "0%" - what does that tell you? So you add "deletion candidates", say it reads 70% - do you now _know_ that your episode of "show 2" is safe?


Just entering this conversation but I don't understand why a free space indicator would always read 0%. Just because Tivo calculates what is availabe using one method doesn't mean the free space indicator has to do the same. It could be written in any number of ways.

For me the free space indicator would be just that how much space is free at present to record a new program, it would not factor in what recordings are set for the future, nor space taken by items in the Recently Deleted List-those have been deleted and should not count against free space. I am glad they aren't really deleted and can be recovered, but that space is usable by Tivo for new recordings so in that sense it is free.

So the free space indicator would calculate disk space that is not used and disk space used by the RDL. It could even list the entries separately if that were desired. This way I could evaluate if I need to watch programs I have set to save until space is needed as well as if I need to delete some recordings so new recordings will record. And if I didn't stay on top of this Tivo would still do what it would normally do. It would just be one more tool available.


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## WayneCarter

Post 6 to this thread describes a number of possible definitions of "Free Space".



> For me the free space indicator would be just that how much space is free at present to record a new program, it would not factor in what recordings are set for the future, nor space taken by items in the Recently Deleted List-those have been deleted and should not count against free space. I am glad they aren't really deleted and can be recovered, but that space is usable by Tivo for new recordings so in that sense it is free.
> 
> So the free space indicator would calculate disk space that is not used and disk space used by the RDL. It could even list the entries separately if that were desired. This way I could evaluate if I need to watch programs I have set to save until space is needed as well as if I need to delete some recordings so new recordings will record.


TiVo will simply delete the "oldest" program(s) if necessary to make room for a new program.



> And if I didn't stay on top of this Tivo would still do what it would normally do. It would just be one more tool available.


But what additional information would it give you, or let you infer? If an "important" program is near the bottom of the NPL, it's "at risk" and should be watched or protected (set to KUID). If TiVo indicated that a certain amount of free space existed (by whatever definition of "Free Space" and whatever metric - %, Bytes, ... ), would that reliably answer the real question - "will <program x> be deleted?"

Example:
- At 5:00PM you check the free space and enough is free to record <y> at 8:00PM without automatically deleting anything (in particular, an unwatched episode <x> which is at the bottom of the NPL),
- at 5:30PM a family member is watching <z> and has to leave, so they "record" it.
- at 6:00PM a scheduled recording of <w> takes place,
- at 6:30PM TiVo records a suggestion,
- at 7:00PM a family member wants to watch <v> which was recorded on another TiVo, the show is transferred to the TiVo whose "Free Space" you checked ...
- at 8:00PM <y> is recorded

SO does <x> get deleted???


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## HellFish

WayneCarter said:


> So you magically have a free space indicator - it will usually read "0%" - what does that tell you? So you add "deletion candidates", say it reads 70% - do you now _know_ that your episode of "show 2" is safe?
> ...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against adding a "Free Space" indicator, I just doubt it will be very useful.


Other DVRs I've seen don't give specifics, just percentages, and they include "deletion candidates" of recordings in their regular NPL as part of "space used." If TiVo did implement a space indicator, Recently Deleted Shows & Suggestions probably wouldn't be counted in the percentage of space taken up. 
Why not?

*re: Recently Deleted Shows:*When checking your computer space, do you include items you've deleted off your computer? You can sometimes recover them if you try. When looking at an email client, like Outlook, do you include items you have deleted from the trash bin? In certain circumstances, you can easily recover all email you have "permanently deleted" over the past few days. As many people (ontheway in post #40 being the most recent) have said, if you delete something, it shouldn't be counted as space available. There is no guarantee how long a show will stay in "recently deleted." And if your NPL is really that close to 100%, it is plausible that your recently deleted folder may be empty.


*re: Suggestions:* These shows aren't even guaranteed to be recorded, and can be deleted within hours of being recorded to make room for new suggestions. TiVo describes Suggestions as taking advantage of free space, and so, (I would guess) according to Tivo, counted as free space. If you decide you want to keep a Suggestion, change the keep until date once, and it is forever taken out of Suggestions

When the Comcast DVR approaches 100%, it doesn't mean it won't record any new shows, it means it will start to delete shows on its NPL in order to record new shows. I've watched HD sports at peoples houses with Comcast, and have seen them reset the recording at an intermission (stop the recording, delete what we have already seen, then start recording the new quarter/period/inning) because they see their DVR will be very close to 100% if they record 3+ hours of HD. If recorded in full, some of these HD sports can take up close to 20% of their hard drives. So Comcast DVR subscribers have an advantage here. If someone did this with their Tivo, they would have no idea until they go to their NPL and see recordings missing.

And your scenario is a great indication of how our minds differ. I think the situation you provided is a great example of how a space indicator would be beneficial.



WayneCarter said:


> Example:
> - At 5:00PM you check the free space and enough is free to record <y> at 8:00PM without automatically deleting anything (in particular, an unwatched episode <x> which is at the bottom of the NPL),


Keep in mind I do not have HD, so that is not something I need to consider.
*answer1:*
At 5:00pm, when I do my check, I see I have 30% available which I know is appx 30 hrs, so I obviously have enough space to record everything else in your example, and so I go about my day not worrying about anything.
*answer 2:*
At 5:00pm, when I do my check, I see I have 5% available space, so I know I'm approaching the limit, and recordings may be in danger. 
Because of this, I would also check the "ToDo" list, and see scheduled recording <w> is also going to happen, which I would take into consideration. I think we can all agree the "Suggestion" you mention is meaningless because the TiVo wouldn't record it unless it knows it won't disrupt anything. To continue, after seeing I have 5% available, I would go through my NPL, and delete things that I really do not need. 
-The 2.5 hour movie I recorded that I've been meaning to see? Well, shows <x> & <w> are more important, so lets delete that. Now I have 8% available.
-That mini-series I've already seen but was saving for some rainy days? Shows <x> & <w> again take precedence, so that's deleted too. Now I have 17% available. Things are suddenly looking more comfortable.

Plus the other people in the household can look at the space indicator as well. If they see we're close to 100%, they may decide the show they are watching isn't really worth recording. And the person using MRV can decide to go watch the show on the original Tivo. Or when they see we're close to 100%, both these people can go through the NPL and clean it out their fluff as well.

Without knowing the space available, none of would know if steps need to be taken, or if we can just leave everything as is.

Admittedly, I don' have this concern right now because I have appx 150 hrs of space per Tivo, but I see people with other brand DVRs & HDTV do this all the time because they have comparably less space to use when you take into consideration how much space HD video takes up. Seeing how well they use it, makes me realize how useful it can be. People that are coming from other DVRs are often annoyed by this, see tastyratz post #36, and I can easily understand why.


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## HTH

I'm old hat at this topic, so I'll be brief.

How much space you have available _right now_ is not all that useful information, can be misleading (*), and not the real concern. The right thing for TiVo to tell you is the date and time that, according to current and future demands, when a non-suggestion has to be deleted to make room and how much has to be deleted to make room. That way you can get ahead of the algorithm and choose what will free up the most space.

Now, you can get that information by pushing shows to expire later and paying attention to when other programs will expire earlier. I do it by pushing things ahead a week at a time, going by the metric that if you record more in a week than you can store or watch in a week, you're oversubscribing your season passes. I've even been able to make sense of the results on a TiVo Series3 with its dual-tuning and HD recording capabilities.

I also keep in mind what shows will free up more space in less time. A movie may free up two hours, but two hour-long dramas can be watched in an hour and a half or less by skipping commercials. HD content also eats up more space per time watched, and HDNET programming takes more storage per minute than say CBS.

I don't fault TiVo for not having a free space meter. But I do fault them for removing expiration information from the To Do List. I used to be able to go through the To Do List to see when future shows would expire early. The software no longer provides this information.

(*) Having plenty of free space now and yet still not being able to schedule a movie to record next week is an example of why a present-day FSM is misleading. It can lead to unnecessarily deleting things unwatched now that will expire in under two days to free space 7 days from now. The system already considered that space as being free by next week. For the target market, giving a grandmother a simple FSM would be akin to giving a medical dictionary to a hypochondriac. It'll cost TiVo in service calls and lost good will for user misinterpretations. The data either needs to be pre-massaged into useful predictive information or restricted to power users like us that understand the details.


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## HTH

HTH said:


> I don't fault TiVo for not having a free space meter. But I do fault them for removing expiration information from the To Do List. I used to be able to go through the To Do List to see when future shows would expire early. The software no longer provides this information.


The latest update for Series3 units that I received last night restores access to this information. I think you must have anticipated me. Thank you.


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## mattack

lrhorer said:


> Let me put it to you this way. Suppose a metric based upon your formulation said you only had enough "free space" available to fit two hours of programs. What action would you take based upon that information, and why?


I would do largely the same thing I do on my non-Tivo recorder when it doesn't have enough 
space for the recordings I intend to record while I'm gone:
* remove a scheduled recording from the To Do list
or
* delete something that I have already recorded (usually something like a PBS show that will likely be recorded... sometimes another show that is in the current guide data to be repeated again, like MTV shows or once in a rare while network shows rerun on the weekends).

(Well, on my non-Tivo recorder I also have the option to move the recording to a DVD... and on the Tivos I'm slowly starting to move things to a computer too -- but I only have the web-access back door so far so it's slightly a pain.)

I guess I'll say pretty much the same thing that a lot of people say, esp on Slashdot threads (and I admit that it's sometimes annoying when they say it) -- it's my machine so it should let me use it how I want.

I *admit* that I "micromanage" my recordings. As I've said in many other discussions of FSI, I would keep everything as "keep until I delete" if there were a FSI *and* the To Do list would update _VERY_ quickly when I deleted a show (so I could determine whether my deletion added a soon to be airing recording). Since those aren't there, I use suggestions + recently deleted as a _vague_ FSI workaround... and still do the "I have 2 hours of suggestions + recently deleted -- is there more than 2 hours on the To Do list" kind of guesstimates most every day. (BTW, my recordings are essentially all in basic quality -- so "1 hour" of recording is interchangeable for the most part.)

Those guesstimates are sometimes wrong, and I sometimes have lost recordings.. 
When I record more HD recordings, I'll probably put in a much bigger hard drive, and STILL do these vague guesstimates about how much recording time I have.


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## HellFish

lrhorer said:


> The main point is not that it is impossible to come up with some metric for free space, it is that deriving any terribly useful information from such a metric is difficult. It's sort of like measuring the volume of air above the level of your head in your house. OK, you've got a number like 8000 cu ft. What are you going to do with the number?
> 
> Oh, and why don't you (or just others if you were speaking imperially) have Suggestions turned on? There is really no down side to having them turned on.


I missed this post the first time around.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have a Dtivo, which does not constantly record when it's in standby. By turning off suggestions, it lessens the wear on my HDD. Plus if/when I get a stand alone unit, I still won't record them, I just find suggestions annoying, they do nothing for me and are a horrible metric for measuring free space. If I have 8 suggested recordings, I don't know if it's 8 15 minute shows (2 hrs avail), 8 2.5 hour movies (10 hrs avail) or anything in between. The discrepancy would be worse with more suggestions.

How can you say it's impossible to come up with a metric for free space? And why do you keep making analogies about cars or cubic space above your bed, when you can use real world examples? Everyone I've asked that has a different service for DVR has told me they have some sort of space indicator, and find it laughable, that the supposed best DVR, Tivo, does not. And none of them are confused about free space. They all know that if 100% capacity is reached, it will start deleting the oldest shows that are not set as KUID.

I really decided to take a back seat to this discussion, but I read something in a different thread last week that alluded to the FSI request. TiVoPony said in this thread in the TiVo Coffee House section:



TiVoPony said:


> Regarding the specific features you've asked about, the free space indicator is certainly the longest running request. Longevity does not equal priority though. If that single feature would have sold more boxes and increased customer satisfaction for a significant portion of our subscribers, it would have been added years ago. It may get in there one day, but when prioritized against other things, it's often pretty low on the list.


This tells us that it is possible, but it's not now, and never has been, a top priority. I bet if we see a Comcast commercial that points out that TiVo lacks this basic feature*, it would be implemented into the TiVo GUI within a week.

*Calling a space indicator a feature seems odd. It's like calling the ability to change channels a feature.


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## Solver

Has the size of the TiVo software in a model reached some maximum size?
If TiVo wanted to code in another feature, would it need to code out something else (like adding a space utilization feature would require removing some USB network drivers)?
If so, it would explain a lot.
I doubt this is the case though.


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## Jonathan_S

Solver said:


> Has the size of the TiVo software in a model reached some maximum size?
> If TiVo wanted to code in another feature, would it need to code out something else (like adding a space utilization feature would require removing some USB network drivers)?
> If so, it would explain a lot.
> I doubt this is the case though.


No. This is more of an opportunity cost thing. TiVo could have its developers works on several different types of code changes.

And as Hellfish already said in this thread "Calling a space indicator a feature seems odd". If they added it they couldn't exactly start a advertising campain talking about it . But there are new features they could choose to add instead which are flashy enough they might attract new subscribers.

And lack of a free space indicator doesn't seem like its driving a lot of people to cancel their subscriptions. So bug fixing and/or performance optimizations might help retention rates more than a free space indicator.

So like TiVoPony said, It's on the list. But, obviously, so far TiVo has choosen to implement features that they must have thought are a better bang for their buck.


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## megazone

All the objections are red herrings as far as I'm concerned. There is no reason TiVo cannot do this - in fact, I know they can. (Trust me.) They elect not to for some reason.

The industry has a de facto standard - used space are user requested recordings that exist on the drive now, period. It is that simple. How much space is used now. For the TiVo ignore the Suggestions and future recordings of any kind simply don't count.

Some object that the recording quality can vary, etc. That's simple. TiVo knows the *max* bitrate for each quality level, and that gives you the minimum run time available. So you can have the display be:
There is at least W time left at Best
There is at least X time left at High
There is at least Y time left at Medium
There is at least Z time left at Basic

TiVo already has the data - look at the Info screen on each recording. It tells you how much space the recording uses. It MUST know this, because it uses the data in calculations for deleting recordings to make space, and for warning you if it thinks it is too full to accept a new recording request.

The TiVo knows how much space the drive has for recordings, total. It knows how much space each recording takes. Add that up, subtract from the total, that's your available space.

There is no reason to over-complicate things - the people who most often look for this come from DVRs that have it, and that's how they do it. I know with absolute certainty that TiVo could do a FSI (Free Space Indicator) if they elected to do so.


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## flaminio

I don't dispute the feasibility of a FSI -- clearly, some algorithm could be devised for it.

I mostly dispute the _utility_ of a FSI. Maybe it's just the way I use my TiVo, but I know how much free space is on it -- *0*. I have very little set to KUID, so new shows come in, and old shows go out. With my disk size and viewing habits, shows tend to stick around for about two weeks. I figure if I haven't watched it in two weeks, it's probably not worth watching anyway.


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## captkirk685

steve614 said:


> I read a post around here somewhere that someone made that kinda made sense.
> 
> Paraphrasing: It would be hard for the Tivo to calculate free disk space because it doesn't know when your going to delete shows AND it has to reserve space for future recordings.


tivo doesn't need to know when were going to delete shows to give us the FSI, just give us the amount of space we have based on right now, then if we delete a show then that amount of space gets added. Its not rocket science and my dish dvr did this very well, I also have a dvd recorder with built in hard drive that gave me 3 different space indicators based on which quality setting I did.


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## captkirk685

lrhorer said:


> On the Comcast DVR, it means something, and a low space indication means you should probably do something. On the TiVo it doesn't necessarily mean anything.


I realize these posts are 5 months old but I Just got a tivo and researched this. If a person has Tivo Suggestions turned off and a bunch of recordings they want to save then it would be very important to know how much free space is left.


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## lrhorer

HellFish said:


> Please explain. If you're referring to your reply in post 30 of this thread, then I don't understand. I wasn't able to confirm all DVRs, but I can confirm Comcast DVRs & DTV's DVRs have the same exact features as the TiVo.


No, they don't. Excluding the Comcast TiVo and the DirecTiVos, those two don't have wishlists or suggestions, unless I am much mistaken.



HellFish said:


> When you set up a Season Pass with these providers, the DVR asks you if you want to delete if space is needed, or if you will delete it yourself.


Season Passes are only a part of the equation.



HellFish said:


> How is this different from how a TiVo handles recordings? What does low disk space mean on a Comcast DVR that it wouldn't mean on a TiVo? Both the DVRs & the TiVo will delete old shows if need be.


Although certainly not perfect, space management on the TiVo is much more facile than other DVRs. Suggestions are deleted first in chronological order. Then expired recordings in chronological order. Then unexpired recordings in chronological order. That granularity, along with a properly sized drive system, allows the user to maintain his NPL very well without the need for worrying about how much space is "available".



HellFish said:


> I'd also like to point out that you said "necessarily," which means even you agree there may be instances where you may want to take action


'Not really. I just learned long ago that absolute statements are rarely accurate. I agree that there can be situations for some users where action is desired in the event of iminent demise of certain programs. I dispute the notion a space meter is a good way to manage such a situation. Viewing habits which tend to prevent the situation from ever happening combined with TiVo's space management are a much better method. With a properly sized hard drive, the user never need come anywhere close.



HellFish said:


> and that is what we (the people requesting the feature) are focusing on. It would be better for the user to be more informed of the situation to prevent the TiVo from doing something you don't want to happen.


It's better still not to ever have to worry about it, at all.



HellFish said:


> I don't hear my friends with their Comcast DVRs complaining about the space indicator that is provided. If TiVo implemented this feature, I'm sure there would be threads in here on how to enhance it, but I doubt there would 100s of threads asking for them to take it away.


I'm willing to bet half of the people who whine about there not being a space iindicator now would whine because the space indicator doesn't work the way they want. 'Change the way it works, and the other half would whine.



HellFish said:


> I disagree, it is certain the suggestions pool is expected to hold programs you have less regard over.


It is equally certain the Season Pass and Wishlist pools hold programs over which I have less regard. The Season Passes often have reruns I have seen multiple times or perhaps with which I was not terribly impressed the first time around, and don't have the time or inclination to watch again. The Wishlists often record programs of less interest or even which I actively dislike. On the other hand, Suggestions often records fascinating material - much of which I have never seen before, and some of which includes some of my favorite programs of all time. Picking a Suggestion at random and a scheduled program at random, the chances are greater the suggestion is one of lower regard, but not vastly greater.



HellFish said:


> Your concept of shows "you would rather not be deleted" is extremely different from mine. I don't understand your idea, since, as I reference below, you have dozens of shows deleted daily.


Absolutely, and many of them it would be nice to have the time to watch.



HellFish said:


> If you're referring to Suggestions, they aren't even guaranteed to be recorded. Saying you prefer that they not be deleted doesn't make sense to me since you don't know if they will be recorded in the first place.


No, I don't , but the fact is irrelevant. The odds if it being recorded are high. It's true the TiVo fails to record quite a few shows I would like to see, but the number it does record I would like to see is far greater than the number I can actually watch. Such is life. The point is, there are many Suggestions I want to and do watch, while there are many scheduled programs I merely watch long enough to identify and then delete. Sometimes most of the recorded programs I delete once I identify the content.



HellFish said:


> If you are claiming a space indicator won't work because the space Suggestions take up should be considered "unavailable", TiVo would disagree.


I never said it wouldn't work. I said there are several very different ways to design the metric, none of which work anywhere nearly as well as simply having a large enough hard drive to allow the user enough time to watch the shows of interest before they get deleted. Since Suggestions are deleted by date, if one has enough hard drive space to hold 2 weeks of suggestions, then one has about two weeks of opportunity to identify any given suggestion before it gets deleted. Similarly, if the hard drive has enough space for on average 3 weeks of scheduled recordings, then one has 3 weeks to identify them before they will get automatically deleted. This is always true, and one needn't have any sort of meter to know the fact.



HellFish said:


> TiVo's idea of Suggestions is that they are shows recorded for a temporary amount of time and will be deleted as soon as a new Suggestions comes along, or, more importantly, a normal recording needs the space.


The same goes for "normal" recordings. The point is, the average viewer has a fairly fixed amount of time available for watching TV. Owning a DVR does not increase that amount of time. The rate at which recordings are made is also somewhat constant - depending on the recording habits of the owner, and the recording rate minus the viewing rate determines how much time one will have before a recording gets clobbered.



HellFish said:


> The following 2 comments you made seem to contradict each other.


Not at all. The first said no recording was ever *accidentally* deleted due to low space. By that, I mean no recording which I had identified as one I wanted to watch has ever been deleted due to a lack of space. Before the Undelete function was implemented, I myself accidentally deleted a handful, but that is another matter. There have also no doubt been quite a few I failed to identify as ones which I wanted to watch, but that also is a different matter.



HellFish said:


> The 2nd one is also the very point of people that want a space indicator (except you are probably talking about Suggestions, where as we are talking about normal recordings):


I'm talking about both Suggestions and Wishlist recordings. The point is, I have about 2 - 3 weeks to identify a program as one I definitely want to watch, or one I definitely want to delete. The others I leave be and let be deleted automatically. A modest number I do get to watch before they get deleted. The rest... well, there's only 24 hous in a day, and there are a lot of things in addition to watching TV I want to do with my time. Whenever ten shows of fair interest get deleted, another ten take their place.



HellFish said:


> For me personally, I intend on watching everything that is recorded.


Why? That unnecessarily limits one to a very narrow viewing palette. There is no reason not to fill the hard drive up completely and keep it full, especially since it takes no time or effort on the part of the viewer to keep it so. That isn't a VCR sitting next to your TV. You don't need to swap tapes, and the medium doesn't wear out. It also has the capability to select programs for viewing you have no idea will be coming on - and no reason to bother to take the time and effort to find out.



HellFish said:


> I have 2 season passes, my favorite show, Show1 and a show I like a lot, Show2.
> 
> I record and keep every episode of Show1. The Season Pass for this show *is KUID*.
> 
> I record and keep every episode of Show2. This Season Pass *is not setup as KUID*.
> 
> Although I do not regularly watch Show2, I do want to watch every episode. After I recorded the entire season, I may go through 10-15 episodes of Show2 in the course of a week.


There's no point for all that. Simply take the maximum time lag before you will identify which programs need to be kept and which will be deleted, multiply by the number of program-hours that will be recorded in that time, and multiply by about 2G for SD and 10G for HD, add a generous fudge factor, and you have the hard drive size in G you will need to make sure you never have to worry about it. Then don't. Life's way too short to worry repeatedly about something which can be fixed permanently for under $150. If you don't want to bother to actually calculate the size of hard drive (I didn't, myslef, I just used the calculation as an illustration), then go with a 750G drive. They have the lowest cost per byte, and most people are more than fine with about 110 hours of HD and about 500 hours of SD. If your TiVo isn't Series III class, then a 160G drive is probably fine.



HellFish said:


> Why? Suppose I have an option to watch a 2 1/2 hour movie I rented, or 4 episodes of Show2.


If your suggestions and expired recordings put together ever comeanywhere even remotely close to being less than 2 1/2 hours, then your hard drive ius way, way, *WAY* too small. Since 750G drives can easily be had for about $100, I generally would recommend a 750G drive, plus whatever the primary drive is, or else (preferably, usually) replace the primary drive with a single 750G drive.



HellFish said:


> So in this example, how else would I be able to know the pending demise of my Show2s?


By having a properly sized hard drive, the user eliminates the situation entirely.



HellFish said:


> Finally, let's go back to your drag car comparison (did you think I would let it go?  ). You have informed us that they don't have gas gauges, but you also said:...
> 
> The gauges may be useless during the 4 second race, but they certainly sound important and do tell the driver or his/her crew what's going on before the race.


Which just illustrates my point once again. The gas gauge is the analog to the space meter. The drive and pit crew don't need the gas gauge because they know beforehand how much fuel is required, and by simply having a large enough tank they know perfectly well the dragster will not run out of fuel during the race.



HellFish said:


> In my example above, I would use a space indicator the same way. I wouldn't use it while watching a show, but it would enable me to see if shows are in danger of being deleted before I view them.


With the right sized fuel tank, the driver and crew know they never have to worry about it. With the right sized hard drive, the TiVo owner never has to worry about it. Isn't it nice the cost of the hard drive is about the same as a single tank of dragster fuel?


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## lrhorer

megazone said:


> All the objections are red herrings as far as I'm concerned. There is no reason TiVo cannot do this - in fact, I know they can. (Trust me.) They elect not to for some reason.


They elect not to because the metric is meaningless in the context of the TiVo recording paradigm. The TiVo is not just a fancy-schmancy VCR, which is precisely what most other DVRs are. It is a completely different approach to program recording which when skillfully applied (not much skill, but a little) almost completely eliminates the need for the user to worry about when, what channel how many, how much. The TiVo can become a virtual CATV company on which nearly every program is one the user likes and every single one starts when the user wants.



megazone said:


> The industry has a de facto standard - used space are user requested recordings that exist on the drive now, period. It is that simple.


No, it isn't. At a minimum, 40% of the scheduled programs on all three of my TiVos are ones I would prefer to have deleted prior to at least 20% of the Suggestions. Saying I have 10 hours of hard drive space in other than recorded videos tells me nothing whatsoever. Breaking it down into KUID, unexpired Season Passes, Expired Season Passes, unexpired Wishlists, expired wishlists, suggestions, and truly unused space (to include deleted) gives me a little bit more of an idea, but not much. The odds are quite good an about-to-be deleted Suggestion is something I would keep in preference to an unexpired Wishlist recording or Season Pass, so excluding the Suggestions definitely is not the way to go. Including them is also definitely not the way to go. Expired Wishlist recordings should also never be included in the count of free space. The only problem is expired Wishlist recordings should always be included in the count of free space.



megazone said:


> How much space is used now. For the TiVo ignore the Suggestions and future recordings of any kind simply don't count.


Bull pookey. Although it may (or may not) be true the odds of the user wanting to keep a Suggestion are lower than that of a scheduled recording, this in no way insures any particular Suggestion is of lower interest than any particular scheduled recording. In my living room, it would be nearly more accurate to consider all the scheduled recordings to be "free space" and count only the Suggestions and Wishlist recordings. Most of th season passes there are syndicated shows, and I only want to watch episodes I have never seen before or found particularly interesting. I never manually schedule any recordings there, at all.



megazone said:


> Some object that the recording quality can vary, etc. That's simple. TiVo knows the *max* bitrate for each quality level, and that gives you the minimum run time available. So you can have the display be:
> There is at least W time left at Best
> There is at least X time left at High
> There is at least Y time left at Medium
> There is at least Z time left at Basic


And 1/6 the Best time for HD. One needs a spreadsheet to keep track of it. It's all irrelevant, however, because there is no way the TiVo can estimate how many programs *I* want to watch are on the drive. The assumption any space used by Suggestions can be considered free because I don't want to watch Suggestions is absurd. So is the notion Suggestions should not be considered free space. Both interpretations are absurd, which makes the notion of a free space meter absurd, and throwing expired recordings into the mix makes it even more so.



megazone said:


> There is no reason to over-complicate things - the people who most often look for this come from DVRs that have it, and that's how they do it.


Those DVRs lack the sophistication of the TiVo. They are indeed pretty much just VCRs on stereoids. The TiVo allows for a much more subtle and far less user-interactive way of handling the recording of videos.



megazone said:


> I know with absolute certainty that TiVo could do a FSI (Free Space Indicator) if they elected to do so.


Of course they could, but not one which made any sense or offers any useful insight into the state of the TiVo and its recordings. That such an insight, even if the meter could provide it, is unnecessary is the salient point. Most people don't need height markers on a door to know they can walk through it, the fact such a marker would be easily implemented notwithstanding. They don't need a label on their pillow telling them how heavy it is to know they won't hurt themselves lifting it, so most manufacturers don't bother.


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## Jonathan_S

lrhorer said:


> I dispute the notion a space meter is a good way to manage such a situation. Viewing habits which tend to prevent the situation from ever happening combined with TiVo's space management are a much better method. With a properly sized hard drive, the user never need come anywhere close.
> 
> I'm willing to bet half of the people who whine about there not being a space iindicator now would whine because the space indicator doesn't work the way they want.


That's a nice theory, and usually the way I handle it (220 hours on a SD DirecTiVo), but the olympics almost caused an accidental loss of recording. (To be fair, it's because I built up a huge backlog of unwatched shows & movies due to laziness which I'd gotten away with be haveing that big a drive).

But Wednesday a friend invited me over to watch some Olympics on his projector, so I wasn't watching (or deleting) what _my_ TiVo was recording. (And didn't have a chance to cancel the recordings I'd be watching over there) When I'd checked the night before I had almost 30 hours of suggestions, when I got home Wednesday night I had zero. 

Fired up TiVoweb quickly and checked my free space (almost never bother doing that) it said I had negative 3 hours. Ok, that's not very useful.

Turns out it hadn't deleted my oldest recording, but if I'd gotten home a couple hours later it would have.


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## lrhorer

Jonathan_S said:


> (To be fair, it's because I built up a huge backlog of unwatched shows & movies due to laziness which I'd gotten away with be haveing that big a drive).


Too lazy to engage in liesure activity? Wow, that is lazy. 



Jonathan_S said:


> But Wednesday a friend invited me over to watch some Olympics on his projector, so I wasn't watching (or deleting) what _my_ TiVo was recording. (And didn't have a chance to cancel the recordings I'd be watching over there) When I'd checked the night before I had almost 30 hours of suggestions, when I got home Wednesday night I had zero.


Yes, but when your friend called you, knowing you would not be watching the Olympics, you could have simply stoped its recording them for the duration, meter or not. More to the point, other than not recording the Olympics durng that time period, what would a meter have allowed you to do? Answer: delete shows. No doubt one might be more selective in a quality sense than the TiVo's chronological choices, but I submit there is a much lower chance one really wants to watch something one has had several weeks worth of opportunity to watch and has not than something which was just recorded. If one is specifically saving a particular program for a leter time, perhaps when a friend or relative visits or a special holiday, then KUID will prevent the TiVo from deleting it no matter how "full" the drive may be. None of these decisions require a meter, however.



Jonathan_S said:


> Fired up TiVoweb quickly and checked my free space (almost never bother doing that) it said I had negative 3 hours. Ok, that's not very useful.


I use TiVoWebPlus quite often, but essentially never for that purpose.


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## Jonathan_S

lrhorer said:


> Yes, but when your friend called you, knowing you would not be watching the Olympics, you could have simply stoped its recording them for the duration, meter or not. More to the point, other than not recording the Olympics durng that time period, what would a meter have allowed you to do? Answer: delete shows.


In fact, since my friend called me that day at work, even a perfect free space meter wouldn't have really helped.

The previous night, when I'd figured that I had enough space, it was based on me getting home from work at about my normal time and watching the recorded olympic coverage before prime time coverage started.

I had enough space for that.

Getting home after most of the primetime coverage wasn't something I would have thought to anticipate the night before.


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