# Roamio plus vs cable company dvr - PQ



## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

I have Brighthouse networks in central Florida. I recently switched from a Cisco 8640hdc to a roamio plus with tuning adapter. I've noticed that the picture quality of the roamio is not as good as the 8640, I'd say about 90%. The issue is compression, not blocky, but rather small squiggly lines around the edges of objects. I'm sure it's set to best quality for recording, and it's set to 1080p and my display en reflects this. Any ideas? I'm pretty new to TiVo.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Try setting the output to 1080i. Maybe your TV does a better job of deinterlacing than the Roamio does.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Try setting the output to 1080i. Maybe your TV does a better job of deinterlacing than the Roamio does.


Actually I tried both, 1080p seems better.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Try unchecking all video formats and have the tivo automatically search and choose the right one for your particular TV while using a good HDMI cable.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

I got Brighthouse networks in central Florida also.. make sure you got a good quality splitter capable of 5-1002MHz connected like here:
http://media.cox.com/support/print_...er_guides/cable_box/InstallingYourCiscoTA.pdf


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

heifer624 said:


> I got Brighthouse networks in central Florida also.. make sure you got a good quality splitter capable of 5-1002MHz connected like here:
> http://media.cox.com/support/print_...er_guides/cable_box/InstallingYourCiscoTA.pdf


Wait...what? Splitter? Uhh, I connected the tuning adapters coax out to the TiVo, is that wrong? Apparently it is according to this diagram. Maybe that's my problem! I'll fix it when I get home.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I like my little cable company but it does, in my opinion, reduce the quality when using the Roamio vs. clear QAM. Sounds like blasphemy but I don't use a TA and frequently use the TV's tuner. Since my TV's parameters are the same for the tuner and the HDMI port I feel that's not a factor. But the whites are brighter and colors deeper. Granted, I have a real good signal and I'm sure the cable card doesn't help, but this just one opinion and nothing to bet the farm on. I didn't see this difference when I had a basic Premiere connected (with same cable card).


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

David, I was assuming you use a Moca setup. If so, this helped me get a reliable connection from Brighthouse:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=482537

Sorry if I got off topic from your original post somewhat.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

That's interesting, I do use moca, I have a mini in the bedroom that connects that way. It must be connecting to moca through the cable modem. (maybe?) I have the roamio ethernet and moca enabled and its connected to an ethernet cable. I'm still going to try splitting the signal to it before the TA. It's on a house amp it probably does not need another 3db.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Are you sure your getting all Brighthouse SDV channels you should?

I wasn't and was having all kind of tuning adapter troubles until I set up like the Cox flyer

http://media.cox.com/support/print_...er_guides/cable_box/InstallingYourCiscoTA.pdf


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm going to reconfigure the entire setup when I get home later. So far it's tuned every channel I've tried though, so no issues there.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Remember the old saying.... if it aint broke, dont fix it!


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

Why a poe filter before the tuning adapter I wonder...


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

blocks moca signals from interfering with tuning adapter. That was my trouble.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

you also need another POE on the main feed coming into your house to keep moca from going to your neighbors house.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

heifer624 said:


> you also need another POE on the main feed coming into your house to keep moca from going to your neighbors house.


That I do have  guess I need a few more since my cable modem generates a moca network apparently.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

Doesn't seem to have made any difference. I can get the artifacts to go away by turning down the sharpness on the display, but then the picture is extremely soft.

However it seems to have greatly improved the quality of the mini.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Temp rig the mini up to see if that corrects your fuzzy picture issue.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

The mini seems to have a more compressed look at it just because the roamio transcodes the signal to send to it. If I understand how all of this works. (However laying on the bed 10ft from a 40" tv it looks perfect) 

Overall I'm really impressed with the entire TiVo ecosystem. For the low price of 12.50 a month you get a much better interface than BHN, whole house dvr, don't have to pay for extra cable boxes, and streaming to my iPad anywhere with a wireless signal. The free lifetime service on the minis are a heck of a deal they have going on now. It's definitely worth sacrificing a small amount of picture quality for.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

davidg716 said:


> The mini seems to have a more compressed look at it just because the roamio transcodes the signal to send to it. If I understand how all of this works. (However laying on the bed 10ft from a 40" tv it looks perfect)


It does? I had no idea. Why would it do that? Can the Mini not decode MPEG2? I figured it was just using MRS. Is MRS transcoded as well?


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

ncted said:


> It does? I had no idea. Why would it do that? Can the Mini not decode MPEG2? I figured it was just using MRS. Is MRS transcoded as well?


Maybe it does, like is said, that's how I understood it to work from an article I read, I could be wrong.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

There is no transcoding involved in the Mini. The video data is sent to Mini the same way it is sent between two TiVo DVRs (i.e. MRS) and involves no transcoding.

The TiVo simply records the data exactly as received from the cable company, just as the cable company DVR did. The description of "squiggly lines around the edges" sounds like aliasing. This is what happens when you have a curved edge. Since the pixels are square, the curve is actually rendered as a series of steps. If compression increases sufficiently, the "squares" get larger (caused by more shades of color being averaged to a common value) and the aliasing gets worse.

The puzzling thing is that this is all a function of compression and neither your old DVR nor the TiVo are doing any compression and SHOULD be delivering exactly the same data to the TV and therefore the exact same PQ. None of the variables that the DVR does control (like colorspace) would produce what you describe.

Rather than changing contrast, look for a TV setting called something like "edge enhancement" or anything that hints at the TV trying to "improve" the picture and make sure it is turned off. Sometimes these will add some edge noise.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Good idea. For a view of what this "stepping" looks like, check Discovery channel. The logo "D" is always showing the jagged edge. It's Discovery, not the TiVo.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

Let's face it. The tivo gear does not produce a picture of the same quality of a QAM tuner or a good cable box. It just doesn't.

I've had my Tivo gear for almost 2 months and one of the things I was really worried about was 1, The ability of my Romaio to replace a total of 7 STB's and 2, Picture Quality.

I went to great length to segment my network so that ONLY tivo traffic would be on the dedicated GIG switch that I bought specifically for IPTV. I wired all 6 of my mini's via Cat 5 (each cabled tested with a micotest unit for cat 5 quality) to a netgear switch. I wired my Roamio to that switch as well. I uplinked from that switch back into my network so all the tivo gear could phone home and use streaming services. What this _should_ yield is a network where only Tivo streaming traffic will be present. There will be some broadcast traffic related to network protocols but almost exclusively tivo only traffic. This single segment approach also ensures the tivo traffic will NOT have to traverse multiple switches like in traditional networks. This is as clean as I can get it from a network perspective.

I used all the same HDMI cables that I had used with my STB's

My observations:

1. I would say the PQ is 90% of what I had with the STB's

2. I have had some disconnects of the Mini's with an error message (not many)

3. I have seen the PQ change and become momentarily blocky then snapping back

4. I would say the color gamut and PQ (non network related) to be slightly fuzzy (very slightly) on my Mini's vs the STB's Just not that stunning sharp HD quality that I would get from STB's. Some chalky color and macro-vision type artifacts at times. Understand that I'm coming at this from a super critical point of view. My family can't see any of this. I'm using the highest possible resolution that each TV is capable of. The same as with the STB's

All in all I'm still very happy with my decision to get rid of all my FIOS STB's and run off of a 4.99/month cable card. So far I haven't had any Tuner collisions (running out of tuners). We don't DVR a huge amount of content right now and it might be a concern if we were recording on 3-4 tuners and we started turning on TV's all over the house. Right now, not a problem.

I do think that at times there are network performance issues. Last night right before a Mini disconnect I saw the PQ start to degrade with lots of artifacts, macroblocking etc. Maybe most of the Mini's were still displaying live TV even know the kids had turned the TV's off. I am in the habbit of hitting the Tivo button before I turn off a TV just so it doesn't continue to stream for 4 more hours. I would like to think I could train my family to do that, but I can't even get them to watch shows in HD so good luck with that.

I have an enterprise grade Cisco 100Mbps switch that I think I'm going to give a try. At first I wanted to throw GIG at this project then found out the Mini's are only 100 meg. Now I'm thinking throw the best possible quality (read fast processing) switch I possibly can at it and see what happens. That's what I'm going to try next.

But in my humble opinion the PQ is NOT the same as STB's on several levels. I still love my Tivo setup. We have started to use the Amazon Prime streamig app as well. Being able to pause live TV on ALL of our TV's is something Verizon did not provide with their basic full house DVR. I believe it can be done with their higher end solution.

Oh, one more thing. I definitely see the stepping on horizontal lines even on the best HD content. It's one of the biggest things I saw and felt was a problem. Just didn't have that on my STB gear.


Roveer


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

When I had Premiers and a Cisco box on TWC, I could not tell the difference between the picture coming from two boxes. The differences were all functionality-related. When I switched from Dish to OTA/Tivo, I could definitely tell a difference. While the Hopper looked pretty good, the Tivo with an OTA signal looked much better. Perhaps the Cisco boxes do a better job in bitstarved environments?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Roveer said:


> Let's face it. The tivo gear does not produce a picture of the same quality of a QAM tuner or a good cable box. It just doesn't.


Disagree, this is completely YMMV based on local setup. There is no discernable difference between the upscaled 1080i/p video put out by all 4 of the various HD Tivos I've had over the years and what the craptacular Comcast Moto DVRs put out. Nor was there any diff between them and the clear QAM channels that my Panny plasma received before they all got scrambled by Comcast.

None.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Disagree, this is completely YMMV based on local setup. There is no discernable difference between the upscaled 1080i/p video put out by all 4 of the various HD Tivos I've had over the years and what the craptacular Comcast Moto DVRs put out. Nor was there any diff between them and the clear QAM channels that my Panny plasma received before they all got scrambled by Comcast.
> 
> None.


Your opinion. What I see here is definitely not the same as my FIOS STB's that stood before them. It's just that simple.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Roveer said:


> What I see here is definitely not the same as my FIOS STB's that stood before them. It's just that simple.


An opinion that is shared by very few people on this forum, methinks.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> An opinion that is shared by very few people on this forum, methinks.


i'm comfortable with that.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Roveer said:


> Your opinion. What I see here is definitely not the same as my FIOS STB's that stood before them. It's just that simple.


My experience moving from Comcast CATV to Tivo using OTA was exactly the opposite. MUCH improved picture quality with the Tivo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I'd just wait a month and you'll forget about it.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

It makes me sad all of the people who experience Tivo as a better picture from their old boxes. My cisco 8640HD definitely had a better picture, I guess i was really spoiled to have had such a good box before. Wish everyone had the ability.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

Roveer said:


> Let's face it. The tivo gear does not produce a picture of the same quality of a QAM tuner or a good cable box. It just doesn't.
> 
> ...
> 
> Roveer


I just want you to know i agree with everything you said and it echoes my experiences exactly.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

so, just an update, I hooked up a Samsung HD STB (non dvr) and I actually cant tell a difference. and the Tivo might actually have a slightly sharper picture! haha. Wish I could check against my old Cisco 8640 but oh well.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Is everyone saying that the picture is "better" trained enough in video quality aspects to say whether their units are actually "better" in the sense of being "accurate" and sure they're not just in "store demo" mode with the fake, blazing contrast, colors and sharpness mode???

In other words, which is more accurate in its video representation, TiVo or MSO cable boxes, etc?

I find that my TiVos have been more accurate and I have used pro gear (in the past) to determine this. I don't have any MSO boxes to check now, so I guess YMMV.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

How can TiVo spit out a lower quality image than a Comcast/FIOS/TWC/BHN/GenericCableCo box? That simple makes no sense. It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it. I suppose there could be some post-processing going on after the decoder, but that shouldn't affect things a lot. Cable companies aren't putting serious video processors in their STBs.

The only thing I can think of that's causing issues like that are improper setups. Wrong resolution? Different picture settings from HDMI port to HDMI port?


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Bigg said:


> How can TiVo spit out a lower quality image than a Comcast/FIOS/TWC/BHN/GenericCableCo box? That simple makes no sense. It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it. I suppose there could be some post-processing going on after the decoder, but that shouldn't affect things a lot. Cable companies aren't putting serious video processors in their STBs.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that's causing issues like that are improper setups. Wrong resolution? Different picture settings from HDMI port to HDMI port?


Maybe the OP is running his Tivo's outputs at 480p and his cableco DVR was running at 1080i/native???? haha.....


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Bigg said:


> How can TiVo spit out a lower quality image than a Comcast/FIOS/TWC/BHN/GenericCableCo box? That simple makes no sense. It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it. I suppose there could be some post-processing going on after the decoder, but that shouldn't affect things a lot. Cable companies aren't putting serious video processors in their STBs.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that's causing issues like that are improper setups. Wrong resolution? Different picture settings from HDMI port to HDMI port?


I agree. While the Tivo does process the data to send it out over HDMI, the variables there (like colorspace) would not produce the effect the OP describes. The bits delivered over the wire should be identical regardless of who is decoding and sending them.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

qz3fwd said:


> Maybe the OP is running his Tivo's outputs at 480p and his cableco DVR was running at 1080i/native???? haha.....


Please. I know the difference between a 480p and 1080p signal. Im talking about such minute differences in quality that most people probably wouldn't even notice.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

qz3fwd said:


> Maybe the OP is running his Tivo's outputs at 480p and his cableco DVR was running at 1080i/native???? haha.....


I was thinking more like fixed 720p on the TiVo vs. native on the cableco DVR, but yeah, that's the general direction I was thinking.


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## davidg716 (Jan 20, 2015)

So funny story. I upgraded the harddrive today And had to reinstall everything, well, I think the picture actually looks better now than it did before. Still set to 1080 60p so no change in resolution. But watching the superbowl and the picture is really good.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

davidg716 said:


> So funny story. I upgraded the harddrive today And had to reinstall everything, well, I think the picture actually looks better now than it did before. Still set to 1080 60p so no change in resolution. But watching the superbowl and the picture is really good.


Some setting must have changed, new HDD alone isn't changing PQ...


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Some setting must have changed, new HDD alone isn't changing PQ...


Agreed, and he would also have to compare it directly to the MSOs box on the same channel with all the same settings.

OP, It could've just been that NBC and/or the MSOs used the highest bitrate, resolution and equipment for the most watched TV show in history, don'tcha think?


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

davidg716 said:


> I have Brighthouse networks in central Florida. I recently switched from a Cisco 8640hdc to a roamio plus with tuning adapter. I've noticed that the picture quality of the roamio is not as good as the 8640, I'd say about 90%. The issue is compression, not blocky, but rather small squiggly lines around the edges of objects. I'm sure it's set to best quality for recording, and it's set to 1080p and my display en reflects this. Any ideas? I'm pretty new to TiVo.


FWIW: When I got my first TiVo I also thought that the SA8240HDC HD DVR had a better PQ, I kept both DVRs attached to the same TV for about a year, finally getting rid of the cableco DVR.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8645457#post8645457


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

CoxInPHX said:


> FWIW: When I got my first TiVo I also thought that the SA8240HDC HD DVR had a better PQ, I kept both DVRs attached to the same TV for about a year, finally getting rid of the cableco DVR. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8645457#post8645457


Well, it is a believable scenario, considering the MSO boxes from Cisco, Motorola, etc. are probably built using MILSPEC or close to it parts so they have high quality, high tolerance components and they're rugged and can withstand Bubba throwing it in the back of his pick 'em up truck as well as changing owners on a regular basis.

I'm sure TiVo uses the cheapest stuff from Asia and Mexico that barely meets tolerances and saves on manufacturing costs. Heck I just hooked up my Premiere XL that's THX certified and I swear it has better picture quality than my Roamio plus. I think that's the last unit I mentioned earlier that I tested with my i1 Pro colorimeter too.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HarperVision said:


> Agreed, and he would also have to compare it directly to the MSOs box on the same channel with all the same settings.
> 
> OP, It could've just been that NBC and/or the MSOs used the highest bitrate, resolution and equipment for the most watched TV show in history, don'tcha think?


Yeah. The affiliates may also have cut the subchannels back hard. Some cable companies just take the OTA channels bit for bit, subchannels and all, and stick two of them on a QAM, so that extra bandwidth for the main feed would also affect cable. Even if the cable company were compressing it on their own from a high-bitrate feed, I would think they would "juice" the statistical multiplexer a bit to be biased and give more bandwidth to the Superbowl and less to whatever was sharing the QAM.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> How can TiVo spit out a lower quality image than a Comcast/FIOS/TWC/BHN/GenericCableCo box? That simple makes no sense. It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it. I suppose there could be some post-processing going on after the decoder, but that shouldn't affect things a lot. Cable companies aren't putting serious video processors in their STBs.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that's causing issues like that are improper setups. Wrong resolution? Different picture settings from HDMI port to HDMI port?


Without knowing exactly how Tivo's technology works your statements could be slightly inaccurate to dead wrong. We all wish the world was that easy.

First, the video processor might be (and probably is) totally different in Tivo than the STB's that could account for a lot. We don't know if it's passing the data stream straight through (I kind of doubt that it is), or if it's being processed or possibly compressed in order to be transmitted over CAT5 or MOCA to Mini's. Lots of things probably ARE happening to that stream inside the Tivo and it could have a huge difference on how the picture looks.

I'm happy that lots of people say the PQ is exactly the same or better with Tivo, but my experience is that it is not. And depending on the load on the Tivo can vary quite a bit. Remember I have a total of 6 mini's connected to my Tivo with probably 4 or more running/recording at times. The chart below shows some of the data rates for different kinds of 1080 video. As you can see, there is uncompressed, compressed (implied), 8 bit, 10 bit, RGB (4:4:4) and a bunch more. All of these things do make a difference and I don't believe any of us (especially me), know exactly what is happening inside a Tivo Box. Do we even know what data rate Tivo streams video to a mini? I bet its a lot lower than some of the numbers below. Remember I have my Roamio running on a 100 mbps switch running 6 mini's. The numbers below are all almost 100mbps or more for 1 HD stream. Tivo may be compressing the heck out if it's stream to allow the technology (multiple mini's) to work. Inside the STB the datarate can be potentially much higher because it's only got to move inside the box and then to HDMI. Oh, my original remarks were all made when I had the entire setup on a 1gbps switch. I went to the 100 meg because it was Cisco enterprise grade and I really haven't seen any difference. So, it's just not as easy as saying, "It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it." Maybe it does, do any of us know for sure? Why am I seeing 3-5 times more artifacts on my Tivo setup than when I had STB's? And I'm not using the wrong resolution. Some of the SD channels almost look like 90's stile first gen AVI files. I really don't remember that when we had the STB's.

Back in the infancy of video devices, there was great debate about the quality of different video processing chips. Sigma chips being one of them. All the heavy geeks talked about color space, bit depth etc. They all talked about how all of these things had effects on how things looked when they finally got to the screen. It does make a difference. Tivo is NOT the same as a STB.

Here's a post from back in 2013 with folks making similar complaints about PQ. And like this thread, it devolved into Your wrong, no your wrong. It's just too subjective to get everyone to agree but as I've said before. It's just not the same. Still love my tivo. Family took to it better than I thought too.

Another thread about Tivo Picture Quality

1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB/s, or 334 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB/s, or 445 GB/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB/s, or 348 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB/s, or 463 GB/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB/s, or 417 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB/s, or 556 GB/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed
10 bit @ 1280 x 720p @ 60fps = 211 MB/s, or 742 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 190 MB/s, or 667 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 50i = 198 MB/s, or 695 GB/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 60i = 237 MB/s, or 834 GB/hr.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

davidg716 said:


> So funny story. I upgraded the harddrive today And had to reinstall everything, well, I think the picture actually looks better now than it did before. Still set to 1080 60p so no change in resolution. But watching the superbowl and the picture is really good.


Yeah LOL, this also pretty well debunked any claim you made.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Roveer said:


> Without knowing exactly how Tivo's technology works your statements could be slightly inaccurate to dead wrong. We all wish the world was that easy.
> 
> First, the video processor might be (and probably is) totally different in Tivo than the STB's that could account for a lot. We don't know if it's passing the data stream straight through (I kind of doubt that it is), or if it's being processed or possibly compressed in order to be transmitted over CAT5 or MOCA to Mini's. Lots of things probably ARE happening to that stream inside the Tivo and it could have a huge difference on how the picture looks.


There could be a slightly different video processor that's doing something to the video coming out of the box, but it's not going to make a big difference, and it's not going to fix the inherent problems with over-compression that many cable companies (I'm looking at you, Comcast) have. I run my TV through a DVDO EDGE, which is an order of magnitude above what you will find in any STB, and it cleans up the video somewhat, and hides some of the bad artifacts, but when it comes down to it, Comcast's over-compression is still really obvious, and the PQ wasn't any different using an HTPC or their crappy DVR.

TiVo DOES NOT re-compress the stream for the Minis. The Mini gets the MPEG-2 exactly as it was sent by the MSO (or OTA). TiVo doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower required to do that much re-compression. So the only difference would be how the TiVo Roamio/Premiere vs. the Mini is decoding and processing the video before it goes out the HDMI port, but again, those would be miniscule differences, if any.



> I'm happy that lots of people say the PQ is exactly the same or better with Tivo, but my experience is that it is not. And depending on the load on the Tivo can vary quite a bit. Remember I have a total of 6 mini's connected to my Tivo with probably 4 or more running/recording at times. The chart below shows some of the data rates for different kinds of 1080 video. As you can see, there is uncompressed, compressed (implied), 8 bit, 10 bit, RGB (4:4:4) and a bunch more. All of these things do make a difference and I don't believe any of us (especially me), know exactly what is happening inside a Tivo Box. Do we even know what data rate Tivo streams video to a mini? I bet its a lot lower than some of the numbers below. Remember I have my Roamio running on a 100 mbps switch running 6 mini's. The numbers below are all almost 100mbps or more for 1 HD stream. Tivo may be compressing the heck out if it's stream to allow the technology (multiple mini's) to work. Inside the STB the datarate can be potentially much higher because it's only got to move inside the box and then to HDMI. Oh, my original remarks were all made when I had the entire setup on a 1gbps switch. I went to the 100 meg because it was Cisco enterprise grade and I really haven't seen any difference. So, it's just not as easy as saying, "It's taking the same MPEG-2 signal, recording it bit for bit, and spitting it back bit for bit, and then decoding it." Maybe it does, do any of us know for sure? Why am I seeing 3-5 times more artifacts on my Tivo setup than when I had STB's? And I'm not using the wrong resolution. Some of the SD channels almost look like 90's stile first gen AVI files. I really don't remember that when we had the STB's.


You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. TiVo records the MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 (on FIOS and a select few cable companies) stream as it comes in from the MSO. That stream is streamed without modification, other than some sort of file wrapper and metadata and whatnot, to the Minis exactly as it came from the MSO. We know this for a fact, since many TiVos, like my XL4 have no ability to transcode the video in the first place.

Typical MPEG-2 bitrates range from 8mbps (on the really low end on Comcast, they look atrocious) to 19mbps on the high end, most are between 12 and 16mbps or thereabouts. 12mbps is starting to get really shady if there's a lot of motion, 15+mbps looks really good. There theoretically cannot be cable video channels available to a TiVo that exceed 38mbps. No way, no how. Can't happen. Doesn't exist.

As far as I know, there is nothing available on any QAM system in the US that exceeds 19mbps, which is also the limit for OTA, and I'm not positive if it's even possible to have an MPEG-2 channel over 19mbps on a QAM system. Doesn't exist, isn't going to happen in the near future until we're looking at 4K, and that's limited to 38mbps, because that's the width of a 6mhz QAM channel. Bandwidth beyond that will have to be running over IP on top of DOCSIS.

Even with Verizon FIOS, where many channels are 19mbps MPEG-2 (although some are now tri-muxed at around 12mbps per channel, and even the ones that are close to 19mbps usually aren't quite there), you would need 5 Minis streaming simultaneously to encounter problems on a 100mbps network, and if you put one on MoCA, and the others one 100mbps Ethernet, you'd have enough bandwidth even under the most extreme hypothetical situation. Or put a gigabit switch in. All 5 would work fine in a good MoCA installation as well.

Even my older XL4 can spit out 3 live streams to Minis, plus be used locally. Yes, it slows down a bit in terms of remote responsiveness, as it's running completely flat out, but the video is fine. With the video streams already encoded and sitting that way on the hard drive, there is no way for the quality to degrade if there are bandwidth problems. If the network doesn't have enough bandwidth available, the Minis either freeze or drop entirely, there's basically no in-between.

So the bottom line is that other than minute differences in the processing happening after the stream gets to the TiVo it is being played back on, the video stream is the same, irregardless of whether it's going through an MSO box, a TiVo Roamio, a TiVo Premiere, or a TiVo Mini.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> There could be a slightly different video processor that's doing something to the video coming out of the box, but it's not going to make a big difference, and it's not going to fix the inherent problems with over-compression that many cable companies (I'm looking at you, Comcast) have. I run my TV through a DVDO EDGE, which is an order of magnitude above what you will find in any STB, and it cleans up the video somewhat, and hides some of the bad artifacts, but when it comes down to it, Comcast's over-compression is still really obvious, and the PQ wasn't any different using an HTPC or their crappy DVR.
> 
> TiVo DOES NOT re-compress the stream for the Minis. The Mini gets the MPEG-2 exactly as it was sent by the MSO (or OTA). TiVo doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower required to do that much re-compression. So the only difference would be how the TiVo Roamio/Premiere vs. the Mini is decoding and processing the video before it goes out the HDMI port, but again, those would be miniscule differences, if any.
> 
> ...


See the blue on the right side. Pulsing in the live video on my Mini. As a matter of fact most solid colors on shows do some kind of pulsing if you look closely enough. I've set this to record and will see how it displays on my computer and will try to upload a sample. Never saw this type of junk on my STB. Also, picture is "soft" overall compared to my STB.










Video Link of Pulsing Blue Background on Right Side

Another Example of Pulsing. Look at McCain's suit right hand side

Same McCain Video but downloaded from Tivo Very clean compared to what comes out of the Mini. Negligible pulsing

Just did not have this PQ on a STB...

Roveer


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Some setting must have changed, new HDD alone isn't changing PQ...


Yeah he got used to it and forgot about his previous box.

People get a new something or other. Then they sort of notice it isn't quite the same. Then they start looking for sht. Something they never did before with their old watchamacallit. And when they start looking for stuff then they find it. And then declare it was never there before. ONly they forget they never looked for it before. And then they conclude the new thing must be worse.

They drive themselves nuts for awhile until they finally wake up one day and forget about it all.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Roveer said:


> See the blue on the right side. Pulsing in the live video on my Mini. As a matter of fact most solid colors on shows do some kind of pulsing if you look closely enough. I've set this to record and will see how it displays on my computer and will try to upload a sample. Never saw this type of junk on my STB. Also, picture is "soft" overall compared to my STB.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


What you are seeing in those samples is a compression effect called "macro-blocking." One of the things that MPEG-2 compression does to save space is average together the color values of adjacent pixels. Then, instead of having to send 30 different color values, the data just says "repeat this pixel color value 30 times). That's a gross oversimplification, but captures the essence.

This is 100% a result of either the source content (Fox News in your example) or your cable company feed being over compressed. That was absolutely the same on your cable company box. It is NOT something the TiVo is doing. As Bigg points out, no TiVo DVRs have compressed the recorded video themselves since broadcasters and cable companies went digital. The transcoding capability of the Stream is only inside the Roamios and is absolutely not used by the Minis. If it were, you couldn't watch MPEG-4 channels on a mini because the Stream can not take in an MPEG-4 channel (at least not until they update the firmware).

I have no idea why you didn't see it previously. I can only say that we don't see anything that bad on FiOS, and never saw it that bad on DirecTV HD channels. Macro-blocking exists in all compressed video, it is just a matter of how bad it gets, and that is directly related to how small a bitstream is allocated to the channel.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> I have no idea why you didn't see it previously. I can only say that we don't see anything that bad on FiOS, and never saw it that bad on DirecTV HD channels. Macro-blocking exists in all compressed video, it is just a matter of how bad it gets, and that is directly related to how small a bitstream is allocated to the channel.


My Provider is FIOS

When you look at the Tivo Recorded stream on a computer you really don't see it at all. So that leaves me to believe the video processing chips in the Tivo Equipment are doing a BAD job at displaying the content. The STB video processing chips do a better job. I still have STB's at my office. I guess I'll try and do some side by side comparisons and see if I can visually quantify the difference. At this point, nothing is going to change and I do like my Tivo setup. We are starting to use the pause live tv more and more now that we have it. We are starting to use the Amazon prime streaming app as well. Those are all plus's in my book.

Roveer


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Roveer said:


> My Provider is FIOS...


I guess then it's because I don't watch Fox.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Have you tried using the component video out on your Roamio plus to rule out any HDMI issues?


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Roveer said:


> My Provider is FIOS
> 
> When you look at the Tivo Recorded stream on a computer you really don't see it at all. So that leaves me to believe the video processing chips in the Tivo Equipment are doing a BAD job at displaying the content. The STB video processing chips do a better job. I still have STB's at my office. I guess I'll try and do some side by side comparisons and see if I can visually quantify the difference. At this point, nothing is going to change and I do like my Tivo setup. We are starting to use the pause live tv more and more now that we have it. We are starting to use the Amazon prime streaming app as well. Those are all plus's in my book.
> 
> Roveer


Roveer,
If you have the 1080p box checked in your video settings of your DVR, uncheck it and then see if this changes the video on the mini. Since there is no content made in 1080p60 there is no reason to use this setting.
Make sure your have 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i selected in the menu on the main DVR and then do the same on the mini. Do not select 1080p60 even if your display is native 1080p60. Let your display do the conversion for both the DVR and mini .


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Jed1 said:


> Roveer, If you have the 1080p box checked in your video settings of your DVR, uncheck it and then see if this changes the video on the mini. Since there is no content made in 1080p60 there is no reason to use this setting. Make sure your have 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i selected in the menu on the main DVR and then do the same on the mini. Do not select 1080p60 even if your display is native 1080p60. Let your display do the conversion for both the DVR and mini .


Good idea! :up: Then you take the TiVo's scalar out of the equation. Great troubleshooting tip! FYI, I don't think 1080p on the mini does anything to broadcast channels. It only allows pass thru of 1080p24 streaming content if your display is compatible.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

HarperVision said:


> Good idea! :up: Then you take the TiVo's scalar out of the equation. Great troubleshooting tip! FYI, I don't think 1080p on the mini does anything to broadcast channels. It only allows pass thru of 1080p24 streaming content if your display is compatible.


Old School troubleshooting!

I remember when I had my cable company DVR (Pace RNG200) it had a 1080p60 option. I tried it and I noticed I had some minor artifacts on my Kuro on the 720p channels. I never used this option since then.

Another thing is his TV settings. If his TVs are not calibrated and has those stupid enhancement features turned on this will also produce artifacts like he has.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Jed1 said:


> ...............Another thing is his TV settings. If his TVs are not calibrated and has those stupid enhancement features turned on this will also produce artifacts like he has.


Yeah, but then the artifacts would've also showed up when he used his MSO box too.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

FWIW, while the video looks okay on a small monitor, I pushed the downloaded video from my PC to our 55" plasma TV and it looks just like the samples of TiVo output the OP posted (tons of macro blocking in McCain's jacket). I also looked at Fox News Channel live on our 65" 1080p set and saw the same macro blocking shown in the closeup samples. I did not, however, see any such artifacts on Al Jezeera America. FNC broadcasts in 720p and AJA broadcasts in 1080i, but that alone would not cause such severe artifacts on FNC. Either Fox is just over-compressing FNC before Verizon ever gets it or Verizon (for some reason) is re-compressing FNC to a lower bit rate. I still can't explain why the Verizon STB didn't look the same.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Diana Collins said:


> FWIW, while the video looks okay on a small monitor, I pushed the downloaded video from my PC to our 55" plasma TV and it looks just like the samples of TiVo output the OP posted (tons of macro blocking in McCain's jacket). I also looked at Fox News Channel live on our 65" 1080p set and saw the same macro blocking shown in the closeup samples. I did not, however, see any such artifacts on Al Jezeera America. FNC broadcasts in 720p and AJA broadcasts in 1080i, but that alone would not cause such severe artifacts on FNC. Either Fox is just over-compressing FNC before Verizon ever gets it or Verizon (for some reason) is re-compressing FNC to a lower bit rate. I still can't explain why the Verizon STB didn't look the same.


Diana,
If you have Neil Cavuto on right now how does he look in the studio setting. His jacket should be solid black with no noise. The issue you are describing is not macro blocking but mosquito noise. 
The video from Shepard Smith was extremely poor as it was a live shot from Jordan. That feed looks like very poorly up converted SD.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

When thinking about picture quality people also need to remember that on many TV sets, the picture quality settings are set on a per input basis. That is done so that you can dial in good settings for different input devices. So comparing an HDMI input to a TV internal Tuner input, you very likely will see differences due to them not having the same brightness, contrast, color and sharpness settings. If you dial each in to get the best most accurate picture possible, they will then most likely look identical.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

CuriousMark said:


> When thinking about picture quality people also need to remember that on many TV sets, the picture quality settings are set on a per input basis. That is done so that you can dial in good settings for different input devices. So comparing an HDMI input to a TV internal Tuner input, you very likely will see differences due to them not having the same brightness, contrast, color and sharpness settings. If you dial each in to get the best most accurate picture possible, they will then most likely look identical.


I agree for the most part. I've calibrated mine (Sony) with the settings on "common", which means all inputs are treated the same, even the tuner. However, even with the same cable signal from, say CBS, when I use the tuner it looks a little better than the TiVo. To be fair, I let the TV take the tuner's 1080i and show it in 1080p. The TiVo is set to output 1080p. What is not clear, and will remain a mystery, is that some settings are still set to "auto". I can't predict the result of auto when it is working with the tuner compared to working with the TiVo. They should be the same, but "should" isn't saying "always". There's room for debate and we've seen that here. I just feel that you can never compare the tuner to the HDMI without test equipment I can't afford. Please note my cable CBS 1080i feed is on the same frequency as the cable signal that is fed to the TiVo. I still have clear QAM for a few weeks. You could also say that I'm comparing the scalar chip of the TiVo to that of the TV. It would be true also.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

I'm going to set DVR Recording of Fox and Al Jazera on both Tivo and my office Verizon STB and then I'll do a comparison. Different types of TV's which will give me different results but let's see what happens.

I'll take a look at the Tivo resolution settings and try some variations there as well.

Roveer


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> I agree for the most part. I've calibrated mine (Sony) with the settings on "common", which means all inputs are treated the same, even the tuner. However, even with the same cable signal from, say CBS, when I use the tuner it looks a little better than the TiVo. To be fair, I let the TV take the tuner's 1080i and show it in 1080p. The TiVo is set to output 1080p. What is not clear, and will remain a mystery, is that some settings are still set to "auto". I can't predict the result of auto when it is working with the tuner compared to working with the TiVo. They should be the same, but "should" isn't saying "always". There's room for debate and we've seen that here. I just feel that you can never compare the tuner to the HDMI without test equipment I can't afford. Please note my cable CBS 1080i feed is on the same frequency as the cable signal that is fed to the TiVo. I still have clear QAM for a few weeks. You could also say that I'm comparing the scalar chip of the TV to that of the TV. It would be true also.


Cable is still compressing the signal differently than the OTA broadcast, so you stall don't have apple to apples. I guess the only way to know for sure would be use a Romio OTA so both are getting the exact same signal to begin with.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

CuriousMark said:


> Cable is still compressing the signal differently than the OTA broadcast, so you stall don't have apple to apples. I guess the only way to know for sure would be use a Romio OTA so both are getting the exact same signal to begin with.


I don't understand. I was comparing the exact same signal. I was just noting that the TV has too many unknowns to be fair. I'm happy with the TiVo. I think I mentioned I have clear QAM (for the tuner). It's the same feed as that used by the Roamio with its cable card. Even has the same SNR.

I wish I had OTA but that's not going to happen in my location.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> I don't understand. I was comparing the exact same signal. I was just noting that the TV has too many unknowns to be fair. I'm happy with the TiVo. I think I mentioned I have clear QAM (for the tuner). It's the same feed as that used by the Roamio with its cable card. Even has the same SNR.
> 
> I wish I had OTA but that's not going to happen in my location.


Doh, I misread.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

CuriousMark said:


> Doh, I misread.


No problem. I mistype all the time. It is sad that I get CBS and ABC on one 6Mhz channel. I get CW and Fox on another, and NBC and a different CW on another. My rate is about 16Mbs on CBS and NBC and less for Fox, much less for ABC. Compression is a way of life. I get the regular cable stuff in HD, like msnbc and CNN but they come through on SD for clear QAM. I will miss them when clear QAM goes away since there are times when I would rather watch via the tuner because I can set the sleep timer. I'm old but watch cable news during the week. Weekends are for recordings of prime time. It's not much of a life but I like it. Like the TiVo, my up front costs were high but it's real cheap now.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

So I have a question after looking at my video settings on both my Roamio and Mini.

I can say I didn't really understand the whole multiple resolutions thing under video. I basically just disabled all except the native resolution that the TV it was connected to was capable of. Examples:

My Kitchen TV is a 24" Sharp. It's native resolution is 720p so I set the Mini to only allow 720p.

In my family Room I have a 65" Samsung. It's native resolution is 1080p so I set the Roamio to 1080p.

So here's my question: By doing this does it mean when I hit a channel that does not match the native resolution of the TV that the Tivo Scaler has to start processing the signal? Is that a bad thing?

Then I ran the video resolution setup on both TV's.

On the Kitchen Sharp it put 480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i
On the Family Room Samsung it put 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i 60fps & 1080p pass-thu.

I notice when I go to say Fox news which is broadcast in 720p that the TV changes resolution (taking an extra 2-3 seconds) and if I change down 2 channels to OAN or AlJazera which is broadcast in 1080i the TV's resolution switches again.

Does this mean that it is not using and scaling/processing from the Roamio or Mini? Does this just push the scaling responsibilities to the TV (and take an annoying 2-3 seconds longer to do the resolution change)?

Is this optimal? It is annoying as it adds several seconds before it displays any video and makes for poor channel surfing.

Roveer


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Roveer said:


> So I have a question after looking at my video settings on both my Roamio and Mini. I can say I didn't really understand the whole multiple resolutions thing under video. I basically just disabled all except the native resolution that the TV it was connected to was capable of. Examples: My Kitchen TV is a 24" Sharp. It's native resolution is 720p so I set the Mini to only allow 720p. In my family Room I have a 65" Samsung. It's native resolution is 1080p so I set the Roamio to 1080p. So here's my question: By doing this does it mean when I hit a channel that does not match the native resolution of the TV that the Tivo Scaler has to start processing the signal? Is that a bad thing? Then I ran the video resolution setup on both TV's. On the Kitchen Sharp it put 480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i On the Family Room Samsung it put 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i 60fps & 1080p pass-thu. I notice when I go to say Fox news which is broadcast in 720p that the TV changes resolution (taking an extra 2-3 seconds) and if I change down 2 channels to OAN or AlJazera which is broadcast in 1080i the TV's resolution switches again. Does this mean that it is not using and scaling/processing from the Roamio or Mini? Does this just push the scaling responsibilities to the TV (and take an annoying 2-3 seconds longer to do the resolution change)? Is this optimal? It is annoying as it adds several seconds before it displays any video and makes for poor channel surfing. Roveer


It is all predicated on which device has the better video scalar/processor in it. The only thing you can do is test each resolution and refresh rate into each TV and then just select the native resolution so the TiVo does all the scaling and compare which gives the best image, motion, etc. You really should at least do a basic user calibration using something like a DVD or bluray test disc first on each input of each display you'll be using first.

If it turns out the TV has the better scalar, then you have to decide if the increase in image quality is worth the extra time it takes to sync to each resolution of the various channels, as you've experienced.


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## CinciDVR (May 24, 2014)

Roveer said:


> Another Example of Pulsing. Look at McCain's suit right hand side
> 
> Same McCain Video but downloaded from Tivo Very clean compared to what comes out of the Mini. Negligible pulsing
> 
> ...


I don't think your TV screen to PC screen comparison is an apples to apples comparison. The video you shot of your TV screen is zoomed in considerably compared to what would be shown on your computer screen. When I change the zoom level to about 25% while playing your video of the Tivo output (or zoom in to about 400% when playing the file you downloaded to your computer), so that both videos are about the same relative size on my computer screen, they begin to look very similar with regards to macro blocking. I'll admit that the Tivo output video still exhibits more noise, but that could be a result of the video processing done by the device that you used to record the Tivo output from your TV screen.

On the other hand, the file you downloaded to your computer uses the H264-MPEG-4 AVC codec and has a resolution of 640x360. So to display it at 1080i /1080p resolution, it has to be scaled by 300%. That does open up the possibility that one device may be better at scaling than another. It would be interesting to hear your comparison of the PQ when you let the Tivo handle the scaling versus having your TV do the scaling.


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## CinciDVR (May 24, 2014)

Roveer said:


> Does this mean that it is not using and scaling/processing from the Roamio or Mini? Does this just push the scaling responsibilities to the TV (and take an annoying 2-3 seconds longer to do the resolution change)?


Yep. That's exactly what it means.



Roveer said:


> Is this optimal? It is annoying as it adds several seconds before it displays any video and makes for poor channel surfing.
> Roveer


As others have said, it depends on whether you think your TV does a better job of scaling than the Tivo. If you think it does, then you have to decide whether that extra PQ quality is worth the extra 2-3 seconds when changing channels. In theory, your TV should do the best job of scaling since the TV designers know it's capabilities intimately, but in practice that's not always the case.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Roveer said:


> So I have a question after looking at my video settings on both my Roamio and Mini.
> 
> My Kitchen TV is a 24" Sharp. It's native resolution is 720p so I set the Mini to only allow 720p.
> 
> ...


That's how mine is set. I agree 100% with the previous posts. Another way to look at this: can you tell the difference? If not, use the TV's native resolution. And that 2 second change with black screen would drive me nuts.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Diana Collins said:


> What you are seeing in those samples is a compression effect called "macro-blocking." One of the things that MPEG-2 compression does to save space is average together the color values of adjacent pixels. Then, instead of having to send 30 different color values, the data just says "repeat this pixel color value 30 times). That's a gross oversimplification, but captures the essence.
> 
> This is 100% a result of either the source content (Fox News in your example) or your cable company feed being over compressed. That was absolutely the same on your cable company box. It is NOT something the TiVo is doing. As Bigg points out, no TiVo DVRs have compressed the recorded video themselves since broadcasters and cable companies went digital. The transcoding capability of the Stream is only inside the Roamios and is absolutely not used by the Minis. If it were, you couldn't watch MPEG-4 channels on a mini because the Stream can not take in an MPEG-4 channel (at least not until they update the firmware).
> 
> I have no idea why you didn't see it previously. I can only say that we don't see anything that bad on FiOS, and never saw it that bad on DirecTV HD channels. Macro-blocking exists in all compressed video, it is just a matter of how bad it gets, and that is directly related to how small a bitstream is allocated to the channel.


That's pretty much the essence of it. Everything the consumer sees is compressed, it's just a matter of how good the compression is. DirecTV uses MPEG-4, and MPEG-4 generally does a much better job of hiding the artifacts and making them small enough that you don't really notice them.



Jed1 said:


> Do not select 1080p60 even if your display is native 1080p60. Let your display do the conversion for both the DVR and mini .


Exactly. The TiVo should ouput native.



Diana Collins said:


> Either Fox is just over-compressing FNC before Verizon ever gets it or Verizon (for some reason) is re-compressing FNC to a lower bit rate. I still can't explain why the Verizon STB didn't look the same.


Look at the viewership of Fox. A bunch of crazy paranoid old people who aren't going to notice the difference anyway, so why bother trying to make it look good? ESPN or HBO would be a better test channel, as they will generally have much better bitrates. The local channels are hit or miss, as it's market by market on any provider.



Roveer said:


> Is this optimal? It is annoying as it adds several seconds before it displays any video and makes for poor channel surfing.


TiVos should generally be set for native output, unless there's some quirk specific to the TV. Channel surfing is a thing of the past for TiVo users, so that's a non-issue. I have mine sending native output to my video processor, which sends 1080p to my TV, and the unlock/re-lock process for HDMI takes several seconds at best, which is fine.



JoeKustra said:


> And that 2 second change with black screen would drive me nuts.


That's just part of the HD world we live in with 1080i and 720p. It's not like you see it that often anyway. I suppose if there are two games on, one of a 720p channel, one on a 1080i, you could end up flipping back and forth, but it's just not that big of an annoyance to have something like a 5 second black screen like my system has. I get the best picture quality possible from my crappy Comcast service as a result.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Bigg said:


> Look at the viewership of Fox. A bunch of crazy paranoid old people who aren't going to notice the difference anyway, so why bother trying to make it look good? ESPN or HBO would be a better test channel, as they will generally have much better bitrates. The local channels are hit or miss, as it's market by market on any provider.


Now, some of my relatives watch Fox.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> ..........Look at the viewership of Fox. A bunch of crazy paranoid old people who aren't going to notice the difference anyway, so why bother trying to make it look good? ..........





JoeKustra said:


> Now, some of my relatives watch Fox.


I watch Fox, and damned proud of it! Certainly better than the alternative ostriches with their heads buried deep in the sand and the mindless heard that follows them.......and the sheeple say, Baaaaaaaaaaa!


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## h2oskierc (Dec 16, 2010)

HarperVision said:


> I watch Fox, and damned proud of it! Certainly better than the alternative ostriches with their heads buried deep in the sand and the mindless heard that follows them.......and the sheeple say, Baaaaaaaaaaa!


:up:


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> Now, some of my relatives watch Fox.


I know of one who would watch it if he watched cable news. Most of my relatives are much smarter than that!



HarperVision said:


> I watch Fox, and damned proud of it! Certainly better than the alternative ostriches with their heads buried deep in the sand and the mindless heard that follows them.......and the sheeple say, Baaaaaaaaaaa!


How can anyone watch that channel without their blood boiling over from the utter garbage that they spew on that channel? Maybe some people can laugh at how stupid the hosts are or something?


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Bigg said:


> I know of one who would watch it if he watched cable news. Most of my relatives are much smarter than that!
> 
> How can anyone watch that channel without their blood boiling over from the utter garbage that they spew on that channel? Maybe some people can laugh at how stupid the hosts are or something?


Enlighten us on what utter garbage they spew in your opine?


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> I know of one who would watch it if he watched cable news. Most of my relatives are much smarter than that! How can anyone watch that channel without their blood boiling over from the utter garbage that they spew on that channel? Maybe some people can laugh at how stupid the hosts are or something?


They've said the same things back before both World Wars, as most of the world's sheeple sat around in utter disbelief and ignorance until it slapped them square in the face! Can you say pre-Pearl Harbor, pre-9/11?

Do we already forget 9/11??? Those people want to dominate and slaughter the infidels, of which 99% of this forum most likely is, including you I am sure.

Fox seems to be the ONLY major news outlet passionate enough to scream the truth at the top of their lungs, regardless of what others may think. Every other outlet bows down like sheep to the slaughter, the almighty dollar and the ratings!

There are fundamental and absolute truths in this universe that don't give a rat's arse what some snot nosed ignorant fool thinks is the way it "should" be. If history has done ANYTHING, it's been to teach us stupid humans THAT fact! Which we NEVER learn from, I might add 

This is the last I am saying in this as it is far off topic for the thread and this forum.

God Bless! <><


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

You sound like a cult leader.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Arcady said:


> You sound like a cult leader.


Haha, hardly. Just someone that cares enough to not sit by idly with my head up my rear end


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## h2oskierc (Dec 16, 2010)

HarperVision said:


> They've said the same things back before both World Wars, as most of the world's sheeple sat around in utter disbelief and ignorance until it slapped them square in the face! Can you say pre-Pearl Harbor, pre-9/11?
> 
> Do we already forget 9/11??? Those people want to dominate and slaughter the infidels, of which 99% of this forum most likely is, including you I am sure.
> 
> ...


An amen seems appropriate here. I totally agree with all this...

I also appreciate that you will are willing to acknowledge that this is way off topic.



MARTIN NIEMÖLLER said:


> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Socialist.
> 
> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out
> ...


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

HarperVision said:


> They've said the same things back before both World Wars, as most of the world's sheeple sat around in utter disbelief and ignorance until it slapped them square in the face! Can you say pre-Pearl Harbor, pre-9/11?
> 
> Do we already forget 9/11??? Those people want to dominate and slaughter the infidels, of which 99% of this forum most likely is, including you I am sure.
> 
> ...


Seriously? Fox trolls for folks like yourself. They prey on your emotions. Same as the other guys. They just prey on a different emotion.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> Seriously? Fox trolls for folks like yourself. They prey on your emotions. Same as the other guys. They just prey on a different emotion.


Yep


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

I'm guessing they get all their news from Rachel Maddow.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Could we set politics aside and discuss TiVo?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Diana Collins said:


> Could we set politics aside and discuss TiVo?


Works for me. Trouble is this topic is so broad in scope that it attracts everyone with an opinion (everyone). But so far nobody has blamed the weather. Yet.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

This thread was about fiction anyway. So Fox fits right in.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

heifer624 said:


> Enlighten us on what utter garbage they spew in your opine?


Very funny. 



HarperVision said:


> Fox seems to be the ONLY major news outlet passionate enough to scream the truth at the top of their lungs, regardless of what others may think. Every other outlet bows down like sheep to the slaughter, the almighty dollar and the ratings!


LOL. There's some hardcore trolling!



heifer624 said:


> I'm guessing they get all their news from Rachel Maddow.


Even though she's not a true liberal, runs heavily party line, and is really inside the beltway on her show, she is a really good journalist, and she and her team dig up a lot of stuff that no one else is looking at critically. She's also extremely fact-based. I just miss Olberman, as he injected some humor into things. Maddow can be tough to watch at times.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Very funny.  LOL. There's some hardcore trolling! Even though she's not a true liberal, runs heavily party line, and is really inside the beltway on her show, she is a really good journalist, and she and her team dig up a lot of stuff that no one else is looking at critically. She's also extremely fact-based. I just miss Olberman, as he injected some humor into things. Maddow can be tough to watch at times.


Yep


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

msnbc has never been the same since Keith left.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> msnbc has never been the same since Keith left.


The world has never been the same since Jesus left. 

Edit: Oooops, sorry, off this worldly important Roamio topic again.


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## h2oskierc (Dec 16, 2010)

Bigg said:


> Very funny.
> 
> LOL. There's some hardcore trolling!
> 
> Even though she's not a true liberal, runs heavily party line, and is really inside the beltway on her show, she is a really good journalist, and she and her team dig up a lot of stuff that no one else is looking at critically. She's also extremely fact-based. I just miss Olberman, as he injected some humor into things. Maddow can be tough to watch at times.


If Maddow is a really good journalist that speaks volumes about the sad state of journalism today.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

h2oskierc said:


> If Maddow is a really good journalist that speaks volumes about the sad state of journalism today.


Is it sad that John Oliver, John Stewart, Larry Wilmore, Shane Smith and a few others are doing far better journalism than the mainstream journalists? Absolutely. But at least someone is actually digging into the stories while the big 4 are showing feel-good fluff stories.


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## Roveer (May 28, 2003)

Are you folks kidding me... Did you really just hijack my technical thread and start talking politics? Shame on you. And poking fun at people who watch this channel or that? Just the sight of it on a video clip and you had to come unglued? Wow... Some folks never cease to amaze me. PLEASE, please, don't contribute to anything I post in the future. I wouldn't want to see another embarrassing display like that last page and a half. Very disappointing.

Moderator: Please lock this thread before someone has a stroke.

Roveer


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