# TiVo Bolt?



## bradleys

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-07/is-tivo-bolt-tivos-answer-to-sling-tv-aereo/

Dave has reported on a new patent request submitted by TiVo for the *TiVo Bolt* - could this be the promised Aereo product?



> Subscription television broadcasting services; cable television transmission of personalized and interactive television programming
> 
> Computer hardware, computer software for use in connection with personalized, interactive, television programming and remote control units for use therewith
> 
> Entertainment services, namely, personalized and interactive entertainment services in the nature of providing personalized television programming, and interactive television programming and games, and entertainment information, namely, an online guide to personalized and interactive television programming
> 
> Promoting the sale of goods and services of others through the distribution of on-line promotional material


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## tomhorsley

I don't know what it might be, but I do know nothing in that quote is even vaguely original and certainly doesn't deserve a patent.


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## bradleys

tomhorsley said:


> I don't know what it might be, but I do know nothing in that quote is even vaguely original and certainly doesn't deserve a patent.


Sorry, it was from the Patent & Trademark office. I suspect they are simply trying to Trademark "TiVo Bolt"


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## JoeKustra

You'd have to be a nut to call something a TiVo Bolt.


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## davezatz

Yah, these are _trademark_ applications. So they want to protect the name "TiVo Bolt" -- it's unusual to see multiple submissions for the same thing. Wonder if it means they're not sure which of those four scenarios they're going after and/or are leaving the door open for? It's interesting...


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## jrtroo

or perhaps a new link with an athlete prior to the olympics?


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## davezatz

I don't think these are the TiVo Bolt... but it is concrete evidence of new hardware.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-07/the-new-tivos-are-coming/


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## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> I don't think these are the TiVo Bolt... but it is concrete evidence of new hardware.
> 
> http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-07/the-new-tivos-are-coming/


Interesting. If it is being certified by CableLabs, doesn't that mean whatever this new hardware is, it must have a CableCard slot in it? It obviously could be the TiVo Mega, as that is the only new hardware that has been announced, but I don't see why they would need 2 different Mega models. My best guess is that they are 4k compatible variants of the Roamio Plus and Pro, capable of streaming 4k content through the streaming apps like Netflix.


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## Dan203

Historically the second itteration of a series was an attempt to make the hardware cheaper and/or a simple HDD bump, so I wouldn't expect a lot from this new hardware. Especially with a successor to CableCARD looming and given the fact that the Roamio already pushes the hardware feature set pretty much to the max.


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## BigJimOutlaw

http://www.attbroadband.tivo.com/

Obviously some kind of incomplete website, but if you scroll down and click on "Our Products"....


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## tarheelblue32

BigJimOutlaw said:


> http://www.attbroadband.tivo.com/
> 
> Obviously some kind of incomplete website, but if you scroll down and click on "Our Products"....


So the Bolt is just a Roamio by another name? Weird.

https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt


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## BigJimOutlaw

Well, that's where the link goes, but the Bolt isn't on the normal site yet. No mention of Roamio on the list is what interests me.


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## davezatz

Page isn't loading for me - anyone have a screenshot? Thanks!

EDIT: Nevermind... I see it in the footer. Interesting. I assume Bolt will *replace* Roamio... but that doesn't explain one of the four trademark filings that references an online service. Perhaps hardware is just phase 1.

EDIT 2: I thought that link was for Atlantic Broadband. But it may be AT&T... who TiVo has no relationship with that we know of. Hmmm.


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## HerronScott

davezatz said:


> EDIT 2: I thought that link was for Atlantic Broadband. But it may be AT&T... who TiVo has no relationship with that we know of. Hmmm.


Wouldn't "AT&T Broadband" seem to indicate AT&T U-Verse? Is that even possible?

Scott


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## tarheelblue32

HerronScott said:


> Wouldn't "AT&T Broadband" seem to indicate AT&T U-Verse? Is that even possible?
> 
> Scott


It could even theoretically mean DirecTV. Now that the merger is a go, maybe AT&T will want TiVo to cook them up something that can compete with the Hopper.


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## theking02

BigJimOutlaw said:


> http://www.attbroadband.tivo.com/
> 
> Obviously some kind of incomplete website, but if you scroll down and click on "Our Products"....


Also, up at the top (header) if you click on SHOP, then there is:

TiVo BOLT
Unified
Entertainment
System









and

TiVo BOLT
Aereo Edition









If you hover over them, it looks like some kind of curved black and white hardware unit?


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## BigJimOutlaw

Good catch. Didn't even click on it earlier.


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## JosephB

"AT&T Broadband" doesn't exist anymore. AT&T Broadband was the name of the division of the old AT&T (prior to the SBC merger) that operated cable systems. Mainly, they owned most of what used to be TCI and owned or had a major partnership with @home.

During those days, AT&T Broadband offered Series 2 rentals directly from the cable company. AT&T eventually sold off all their cable systems to Comcast and the AT&T Broadband name died.

AT&T doesn't use that name anymore, and if they were going to have any partnership at all with TiVo it would be under the name U-Verse or DirecTV. 

Don't read anything at all into that domain name. It's just a very, very old URL that has lived on in TiVo's DNS servers. As a matter of fact, that's how you're able to see that staging server--that domain name isn't configured in their web servers, so it's falling back to a default, that default being their staging website.


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## Dan203

JosephB said:


> "AT&T Broadband" doesn't exist anymore. AT&T Broadband was the name of the division of the old AT&T (prior to the SBC merger) that operated cable systems. Mainly, they owned most of what used to be TCI and owned or had a major partnership with @home.
> 
> During those days, AT&T Broadband offered Series 2 rentals directly from the cable company. AT&T eventually sold off all their cable systems to Comcast and the AT&T Broadband name died.


Not all of AT&T cable went to Comcast. We use to have AT&T here and it got sold to Charter when they left.

I think this is just some placehold site they still have from back then and they're using to test a new website defign. i wouldn't read too much into the domain part. However the Bolt part does seem to indicate that they are replacing the Roamio name. I hope they don't use that weird curved white design for the box though, that looks terrible.


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## HarperVision

Maybe since it says "Unified Entertainment System" it'll be something that can be used with cable (Cablecard), AT&T U-Verse and an upcoming broadband (AT&T Broadband reference) DirecTV option? Or maybe even an OTT Service, if that's not what the Aereo version is for, or that's a cheaper option just for that service only?

Is there a chance that AT&T could offer DirecTV services OTT?


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## Dan203

My guess is that it has nothing to do with AT&T. I bet the "unified" part is just a reference to it unifiying your cable service with OTT apps.

I'm also guessing that they're going to do away with the dedicated Stream hardware inside the units and use the Briadcom teanscoding for streaming instead. That should make the boxes cheaper to make and allow them to lower the price.


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## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> My guess is that it has nothing to do with AT&T. I bet the "unified" part is just a reference to it unifiying your cable service with OTT apps. I'm also guessing that they're going to do away with the dedicated Stream hardware inside the units and use the Briadcom teanscoding for streaming instead. That should make the boxes cheaper to make and allow them to lower the price.


 Maybe, but I like my idea better!


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## BigJimOutlaw

I'm not reading too much into the att thing. JosephB is probably right.

I'm guessing "Unified Entertainment System" is the buzzwordy 2015 version of "the one box". Can they meet the hype, 5 years later?


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## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> Maybe since it says "Unified Entertainment System" it'll be something that can be used with cable (Cablecard), AT&T U-Verse and an upcoming broadband (AT&T Broadband reference) DirecTV option? Or maybe even an OTT Service, if that's not what the Aereo version is for, or that's a cheaper option just for that service only?
> 
> Is there a chance that AT&T could offer DirecTV services OTT?


AT&T doesn't use the "AT&T Broadband" brand anymore. It would be U-Verse, GigaPower, or DirecTV branded.

The "Aereo" version is just their re-brand of the Roamio OTA, which was created before they owned the Aereo trademarks. Now that they "own" Aereo, they are going to apply it since it has more market recognition than "OTA"


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## sicariis

Looks like TiVO caught on and they have killed that old URL.


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## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'm not reading too much into the att thing. JosephB is probably right. I'm guessing "Unified Entertainment System" is the buzzwordy 2015 version of "the one box". Can they meet the hype, 5 years later?





JosephB said:


> AT&T doesn't use the "AT&T Broadband" brand anymore. It would be U-Verse, GigaPower, or DirecTV branded. The "Aereo" version is just their re-brand of the Roamio OTA, which was created before they owned the Aereo trademarks. Now that they "own" Aereo, they are going to apply it since it has more market recognition than "OTA"


Thanks for destroying a kid's dreams guys! 

I still like my idea better!


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## tarheelblue32

sicariis said:


> Looks like TiVO caught on and they have killed that old URL.


I guess they monitor these boards closer than I thought if they got it down that quickly. https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt still redirects to the Roamio though.


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## LoveGardenia

I wonder if the new boxes is a multi-box with a card slot. Too be used with cable or satellite and streaming services from different providers with the apps from HBO and Showtime added or to be added at a later date. Too bad there wasn't a chance to see if the prices were listed for this items before the webpage was blocked.


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## davezatz

LoveGardenia said:


> I wonder if the new boxes is a multi-box with a card slot. Too be used with cable or satellite and streaming services from different providers with the apps from HBO and Showtime added or to be added at a later date..


No way it works with satellite until TiVo works a deal with a satellite provider for that sort of support or until the FCC requires it. And "industry source" has conveyed to me that this is mostly external styling and branding - so most functionality is probably the same and I assume this is primarily a mid-cycle refresh with cheaper (for TiVo) parts. Also imagine the "Aereo Edition" will have built-in Stream unlike Roamio OTA.


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## Dan203

I wonder if they'll all be 6 tuners now?


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## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I wonder if they'll all be 6 tuners now?


I'd guess not. I'd guess a 4-tuner for cable and a 6-tuner for cable. Maybe 1TB for lower, 3TB for higher. The Aereo model I would guess is the same 4-tuner but wired for OTA. Unless they need some cost savings to offset the presumed integrated Stream capability. So I think that one could also be 2 tuner with HD maybe 500GB or 1TB. Also, they could do the same thing for OTA as cable and have two models, a lower end and a higher end. We only know of two cable due to CableLabs - no equivalent for OTA and I expect there will NOT be an FCC filing, that they're going with a "modular" Broadcom, Marvell, etc wireless component previously approved. Either that or it just hasn't hit yet - and even if it does, they could pass the same model thru with more tuners or different hard drives if it's the same wireless chip.


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## LoveGardenia

based on the curve design, I wonder we will be able to swap out the hard drive.


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## tomhorsley

I would have thought TiVo Bolt would be a system with a hard coded wish list that always records any Frankenstein movies .


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## davezatz

davezatz said:


> Maybe 1TB for lower, 3TB for higher. [...] So I think that one could also be 2 tuner with HD maybe 500GB or 1TB.


Given what looks like a small box - I guess there could be some cloud storage going on here. One of the Bolt trademarks did seem like an online service. Even with cloud, I'd expect a certain amount of local storage for OS, swap space, etc. Hm.


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## bradleys

My vote is on a cloud based service as well.

No local hard drive for content storage, no local stream...


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## Dan203

How would cloud storage work? Unless TiVo has deals with the content providers there is really only one way they could do cloud storage on a retail device. Record the content locally and then transfer it to the cloud from the box. That would require that the content be unprotected, which completely ruins the feature for TWC customers, and it would require a massive amount of bandwidth which would ruin it for people that have data caps.

I just can't see them using the cloud stuff for anything other then MSO supplied DVRs where they have deals with the content providers and can record the content at the server side. 

My final guess....

No more combo OTA/Cable unit. The regular bolt will be cable only with 6 tuners and the Aereo edition will be an OTA unit with 4, or maybe 6, tuners. Otherwise the hardware/features will be identical. Both will include MoCa, streaming and remote finder. There may be different variations of each unit with different HDD sizes, but I'm betting the minimum will be 1TB now.


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> How would cloud storage work? Unless TiVo has deals with the content providers there is really only one way they could do cloud storage on a retail device. Record the content locally and then transfer it to the cloud from the box. That would require that the content be unprotected, which completely ruins the feature for TWC customers


I agree with your other points, and it is highly unlikely TiVo would do this. *BUT* if they wanted to, I think they technically could do it. Stuff that is copy-protected by TWC (and others) is marked "copy once" meaning that if the TiVo recorded locally, then automatically deletes the local copy when it uploads a copy to the cloud, that would technically be legal.


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## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> The regular bolt will be cable only with 6 tuners and the Aereo edition will be an OTA unit with 4, or maybe 6, tuners.


According to the CableLabs certification, there are TWO cable-only boxes... so we know there are at least three variants total.

http://www.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/OpenCable_PlugNPlay_20150708.pdf


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## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> According to the CableLabs certification, there are TWO cable-only boxes... so we know there are at least three variants total.
> 
> http://www.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/OpenCable_PlugNPlay_20150708.pdf


And how exactly do we know that it is "cable-only" and not digital cable + OTA?


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## davezatz

tarheelblue32 said:


> And how exactly do we know that it is "cable-only" and not digital cable + OTA?


Good point. "Digital Only" doesn't really specify "cable-only", that was an assumption. So there could be two total models, but the low-end one is like the original Roamio in that you can do OTA *or* cable. Hm. Although going with an "Aereo Edition" still makes me think 3 minimum...


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## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> Good point. "Digital Only" doesn't really specify "cable-only", that was an assumption. So there could be two total models, but the low-end one is like the original Roamio in that you can do OTA *or* cable. Hm. Although going with an "Aereo Edition" still makes me think 3 minimum...


Could definitely be a 3rd OTA-only model, since they wouldn't have to submit that to cable labs for certification. They probably will do something like that to make an OTA-only model as cheaply as possible, as cordcutters seem to be more budget conscious.


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## Dan203

davezatz said:


> According to the CableLabs certification, there are TWO cable-only boxes... so we know there are at least three variants total.
> 
> http://www.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/OpenCable_PlugNPlay_20150708.pdf


Are the Roamio Plus and Pro considered two different units in the eyes of CableLabs? If so then isn't it possible the only difference between these is the HDD size?


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Are the Roamio Plus and Pro considered two different units in the eyes of CableLabs? If so then isn't it possible the only difference between these is the HDD size?


It looks like they submitted the Plus and Pro separately to cablelabs in 2013, so yeah it's possible the only difference is hard drive size.


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## Dan203

I don't think they'll do a "base" unit again. There are to many differences that caused customer confusion. Lack of streaming and MoCa segments the hardware too much. I bet they meet somewhere in the middle. The Bolt will have a cheaper case design, with external power brick, but 6 tuners, MoCa and streaming. There will likely be a 1TB and 3TB units. 

The Aereo edition will likely be OTA only, but still have MoCa and streaming built in. Not sure about tuners. 4 at least, but they may make it 6 if they can source a 6 tuner part cheap enough.


Edit: Didn't the base Roamio require a special waiver from the FCC so that it could record digital only OTA? Has the provision that requires OTA units to support analog expired yet?


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they'll do a "base" unit again. There are to many differences that caused customer confusion. Lack of streaming and MoCa segments the hardware too much. I bet they meet somewhere in the middle. The Bolt will have a cheaper case design, with external power brick, but 6 tuners, MoCa and streaming. There will likely be a 1TB and 3TB units.
> 
> The Aereo edition will likely be OTA only, but still have MoCa and streaming built in. Not sure about tuners. 4 at least, but they may make it 6 if they can source a 6 tuner part cheap enough.


That makes sense to me. I could definitely see them wanting to try to push the cost of hardware down as well as standardizing the hardware more. Purchase price and consumer confusion are two of TiVo's biggest obstacles to overcome. So we'll probably get a TiVo Bolt and TiVo Bolt Pro (or XL or whatever), with the only difference being the hard drive capacity, and a TiVo Bolt Aereo that does OTA only.



Dan203 said:


> Edit: Didn't the base Roamio require a special waiver from the FCC so that it could record digital only OTA? Has the provision that requires OTA units to support analog expired yet?


Are there even any analog OTA signals left? I know there were some low-power stations after the main digital conversion, but I don't know why the FCC would require analog capability any longer.


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## HarperVision

I read something today in USAToday talking about an AT&T and DirecTV special and it mentioned that as soon as you sign up for the bundle in the AT&T store you can start getting DirecTV channels on your mobile and tablet to use while you await your satellite install. 

This makes me think there is already maybe a DirecTV type OTT service ready go, so maybe there's something to this "AT&T Broadband" thing and using their OTT service on these new Bolts? I know the server is just a placeholder as has been mentioned, but it shows they've worked together before, and so has DirecTV and TiVo, so it's not far fetched to think maybe they struck some sort of deal during CES or another trade show to create something like this. 

Think about it. It would potentially extend "U-Verse" type programming to anyone having broadband IP access and also to all those people not able to or want a satellite DSS setup for DirecTV. It would also make it easy to get a VERY large audience for NFL Sunday Ticket too, and the timing is perfect, right as training camps begin!


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## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> I read something today in USAToday talking about an AT&T and DirecTV special and it mentioned that as soon as you sign up for the bundle in the AT&T store you can start getting DirecTV channels on your mobile and tablet to use while you await your satellite install.
> 
> This makes me think there is already maybe a DirecTV type OTT service ready go, so maybe there's something to this "AT&T Broadband" thing and using their OTT service on these new Bolts? I know the server is just a placeholder as has been mentioned, but it shows they've worked together before, and so has DirecTV and TiVo, so it's not far fetched to think maybe they struck some sort of deal during CES or another trade show to create something like this.
> 
> Think about it. It would potentially extend "U-Verse" type programming to anyone having broadband IP access and also to all those people not able to or want a satellite DSS setup for DirecTV. It would also make it easy to get a VERY large audience for NFL Sunday Ticket too, and the timing is perfect, right as training camps begin!


Verizon might have a problem with that. Doesn't Verizon Wireless have some type of exclusive content distribution deal for mobile devices with the NFL?


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## Dan203

If Sunday Ticket was offered as an OTT service it would be HUGE! DirecTV has always used it as a way to draw people into contracts for their service, but as an OTT app pretty much every NFL fan in the US would pony up the $200/season for it.


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## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> Doesn't Verizon Wireless have some type of exclusive distribution for mobile services with the NFL?


 Yes, but that's only for mobiles, the Bolt isn't a mobile device.

NFL ST has its own mobile app to watch games so it wouldn't have to be watched via the DirecTV AT&T app anyway.

Here's the article:

Check out this article from USA TODAY: Opening salvo from AT&T and DirecTV: $200 monthly promo http://usat.ly/1N3gQ86


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## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> If Sunday Ticket was offered as an OTT service it would be HUGE! DirecTV has always used it as a way to draw people into contracts for their service, but as an OTT app pretty much every NFL fan in the US would pony up the $200/season for it.


That's exactly my point!


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## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> Are there even any analog OTA signals left? I know there were some low-power stations after the main digital conversion, but I don't know why the FCC would require analog capability any longer.


I don't know if there are any left, but there was some law on the books that required OTA devices to support analog too. Same applied to cable. TiVo had to apply for a special waiver in both cases to make a digital only device.

Although now that I'm thinking back I think their last submission to the FCC was for a much broader waiver that was not specific to the Roamio but to all future TiVo devices as well. So they may not need to do it again for the Bolt.


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## HarperVision

There are still a couple analog OTA stations here in HI.


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## Dan203

I've found some references to the FCC discussing the possibility of eliminating the analog tuner requirement, but can't seem to find how they ultimately ruled. If they eliminated the analog tuner requirement then TiVo wont need to ask for a waiver, so there will be no record of what models they plan to include OTA tuners in. 

Also their last waiver request was not as open ended as I thought. They didn't name specific model numbers, like they did with the Premiere 4 tuner, but they did specify an upcoming DVR and that there would be a cable only unit and one that included both cable and OTA.


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## NashGuy

The more I think about the possibility of cloud storage for retail version TiVos (cable-provided TiVos may be a different story, as mentioned above), I just don't think it makes sense, except as an add-on service to the kind of hard-drive-based TiVos we've always had. Maybe the new Bolt will come with a 1 to 3 TB hard drive that can't be user replaced/upgraded (which will meaner shorter lifespans for units and therefore quicker lifetime service renewals) but as part of your regular TiVo service (or for a few additional bucks per month), you get additional cloud storage for archival purposes.

Now, let's consider an alternative scenario that relies mainly on cloud storage. If the Bolt has 6 tuners and the ability to transcode each video stream on the fly from MPEG2 to h.264 MPEG4 with minimal picture quality loss, the unit would still need at least about 60 GB of local on-board storage to cache current recordings. That should be about enough to store 12 hours of h.264 HD video (a 2 hour recording on each of the 6 tuners). Let's add a bit of space for the TiVo operating system software and OTT apps and say the unit requires at least 64 GB of local storage, perhaps in the form of solid-state flash memory rather than a hard drive. (I don't think hard drives smaller than 500 GB are even manufactured any more.) After a show finishes recording, it gets uploaded to the cloud.

How does such a product prove more appealing to consumers than the existing Roamio? Every time I want to watch a show I've recorded, I have to stream it from the cloud to the Bolt. I'm sure there would be a short delay at first and, if streaming via OTT apps like Netflix is any indication, trick play features (e.g. instant replay, slow motion play, etc.) would not be as good as what we're used to with the traditional TiVo experience. If TiVo loses that edge, then what's the point, especially for cord cutters? (In that case, you may as well just stream your major network content with a Hulu subscription and forget about the hassle of recording from an OTA antenna.) On top of that, if data caps are a concern with my internet service plan/provider, think of how much data I'm burning through with all of the uploading and downloading. Would the hardware be any cheaper for TiVo to produce? Is 64 GB of flash storage any cheaper than a 1 TB hard drive? I guess TiVo could go with a hybrid system using the cheapest/smallest possible (500 GB) hard drives in all Bolts, with reliance on the cloud for all storage beyond that amount, but I still don't see how consumers will think that's an improvement over the current model Roamios.


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## Dan203

SSD is not well suited for DVRs anyway. They have a finite number of write cycles. With just the live buffer for 6 tuners you'd burn through the write cycles on an SSD rather quickly.


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## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> I read something today in USAToday talking about an AT&T and DirecTV special and it mentioned that as soon as you sign up for the bundle in the AT&T store you can start getting DirecTV channels on your mobile and tablet to use while you await your satellite install.
> 
> This makes me think there is already maybe a DirecTV type OTT service ready go, so maybe there's something to this "AT&T Broadband" thing and using their OTT service on these new Bolts? I know the server is just a placeholder as has been mentioned, but it shows they've worked together before, and so has DirecTV and TiVo, so it's not far fetched to think maybe they struck some sort of deal during CES or another trade show to create something like this.
> 
> Think about it. It would potentially extend "U-Verse" type programming to anyone having broadband IP access and also to all those people not able to or want a satellite DSS setup for DirecTV. It would also make it easy to get a VERY large audience for NFL Sunday Ticket too, and the timing is perfect, right as training camps begin!


The DirecTV "OTT" service has been in existence for a while now. DirecTV streams 150-odd channels, most of them out of home, with a DirecTV login. The announcement today from AT&T is nothing new other than you can sign up for DirecTV in an AT&T store. I promise you there is nothing to the "AT&T Broadband" branding, it's a leftover trademark and domain name that doesn't mean anything.


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## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> The DirecTV "OTT" service has been in existence for a while now. DirecTV streams 150-odd channels, most of them out of home, with a DirecTV login. The announcement today from AT&T is nothing new other than you can sign up for DirecTV in an AT&T store. I promise you there is nothing to the "AT&T Broadband" branding, it's a leftover trademark and domain name that doesn't mean anything.


It still "could be" made available on a TiVo device though. I know the streaming DTV already exists which means it could be enhanced a little with a few more local type network channels and voila, OTT similar to Vue, but DTV branded instead. TWC has the same thing but currently only offered to its cable subscribers, but could easily be made available to anyone via IP OTT.

I made that reference to show they've had a prior relationship with both AT&T and DirecTV.

I guess we shall see, hopefully soon.


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> SSD is not well suited for DVRs anyway. They have a finite number of write cycles. With just the live buffer for 6 tuners you'd burn through the write cycles on an SSD rather quickly.


Yeah, good point. If cloud storage is a feature at all in the TiVo Bolt, I think it will only be a minor add-on/bonus feature. These units will still have hefty hard drives for local storage. My guess, based on what Zatz has reported, is there will be two cable-only models, one with 4 tuners and 1 TB hard drive (sort of halfway in between the Roamio base and Plus models) and a "Pro" model with 6 tuners and 3 TB hard drive (like the current Roamio Pro). The single Aereo Edition model will have 4 digital OTA tuners and a 1 TB hard drive. All three will have built-in capabilities to act as a streaming server for recordings (look for TiVo to discontinue the Stream unit and have a fire sell on those soon) to iOS products and TiVo Online. Perhaps the processor and RAM powering these units will be a bit speedier than what we have in the Roamio. All three Bolt models will probably have the remote finder function.

If all that turns out to be true, then this would represent a modest refresh mainly about new hardware design (as Zatz indicates) and sporting the new TiVo logo. My thought though, is why waste new brand names, Bolt and Bolt Aereo Edition, on what amounts to a just a different looking box? Unlike smart phones, which people handle all the time, I don't think consumers care all that much about the look of their TV set-top boxes. So unless there's going to be a substantive change in the software feature set / user interface of the accompanying TiVo service, why use new brand names now? New branding, to me, seems to indicate a more substantial update, i.e. TiVo Series 6. But if they operate pretty much just the same as the current Roamios (no advances in OTT streaming, no Ultra HD, no improvements to UI, no improvement to the remote, etc.), I think the TiVo Bolt will be somewhat of a disappointment.


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## davezatz

NashGuy said:


> If all that turns out to be true, then this would represent a modest refresh mainly about new hardware design (as Zatz indicates) and sporting the new TiVo logo. My thought though, is why waste new brand names, Bolt and Bolt Aereo Edition, on what amounts to a just a different looking box? Unlike smart phones, which people handle all the time, I don't think consumers care all that much about the look of their TV set-top boxes.


Not to mention there's some risk in going with an unusual enclosure... Hopefully, they're also getting some cost savings out of this exercise if the hardware truly is similar to Roamio.

I do hope on the hardware side there is more parity between the boxes, especially the streaming but MoCA bridging would be nice too. It's been pretty confusing.

So here's my new lineup thoughts, WAG really...

Box 1) Bolt - Aereo Edition. 2-tuners, with streaming, OTA only.
Box 2) Bolt - 4-tuners, with streaming, OTA/Cable
Box 3) Bolt Pro/Plus/XL 6-tuners, with streaming, cable-only.

I'm also thinking cloud storage may not be on the docket at this time for all the reasons mentioned and even issues just keeping TiVo Online available for logins. So Box 1 would have least storage (500MB?), Box 2 middle (1TB?), Box 3 high-end (3TB?).

It's also possible the Aereo Edition is just a neutered cable Bolt, like we see with Roamio OTA. Same basic guts other than PCMCIA slot for CableCARD.


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## Dan203

Here is my official guess...

Box 1) Bolt - Aereo Edition. 4 tuners, OTA only
Box 2) Bolt - 6 tuners, cable only

Both boxes will have a cheaper plastic case, external power brick, MoCa, gigabit Ethernet, streaming, and remote finder. 

There maybe be variations of one, or both, boxes with HDD sizes, but those will be the only two base platforms. There is really no need for a OTA/Cable combo unit. TiVo did that originally with the Roamio because they didn't think there was a big enough market for an OTA only unit. They have since discovered that is not the case. And since the only reason the base unit is limited to 4 tuners is because of the OTA components there is no reason to have a 4 tuner cable unit.


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## rainwater

Dan203 said:


> If Sunday Ticket was offered as an OTT service it would be HUGE!


But it already is offered as a OTT service. Just go to http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/nflws/index.jsp. You can subscribe to Sunday NFL Ticket on Xbox/PS3/PC/mobile/etc without a Directv subscription. The requirement to have Directv is no longer needed. I hardly see how a new box is going to really make a big difference. At this point, what hardware you have matters little to most of the big distributors since they are going to provide their services where most of the people are.


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## Dan203

rainwater said:


> But it already is offered as a OTT service. Just go to http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/nflws/index.jsp. You can subscribe to Sunday NFL Ticket on Xbox/PS3/PC/mobile/etc without a Directv subscription. The requirement to have Directv is no longer needed. I hardly see how a new box is going to really make a big difference. At this point, what hardware you have matters little to most of the big distributors since they are going to provide their services where most of the people are.


I didn't know it was. my BIL will be very interested to know this. He's been bugging my Sister to switch to DTV for years, just for Sunday Ticket, but she refuses because she loves her TiVo and knows it doesn't work with DTV.


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Here is my official guess...
> 
> Box 1) Bolt - Aereo Edition. 4 tuners, OTA only
> Box 2) Bolt - 6 tuners, cable only


An OTA-only model wouldn't have been submitted to cable labs for certification.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> An OTA-only model wouldn't have been submitted to cable labs for certification.


As mentioned above if there is a variation of the HDD size that would be. For the Roamio they submitted all 3 models to CableLabs even though the Plus and Pro are the same just with different drive sizes.


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## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> As mentioned above if there is a variation of the HDD size that would be. For the Roamio they submitted all 3 models to CableLabs even though the Plus and Pro are the same just with different drive sizes.


Right and they never submitted the Roamio OTA, since it was OTA only. I understand what you are saying, that you don't consider a difference in hard drive capacity to be a different model, but that might be confusing to other people reading this thread, since TiVo considers the Plus and the Pro to be different models. So technically, there will most likely be 3 Bolt models.


----------



## Dan203

I'm just saying that TiVo submitted two models to CableLabs. It's very likely that those two models are the same hardware as my "box 2" just with different hard drive sizes. You seemed to imply that there had to be something else because of the two submissions to CableLabs.


----------



## NashGuy

davezatz said:


> Not to mention there's some risk in going with an unusual enclosure... Hopefully, they're also getting some cost savings out of this exercise if the hardware truly is similar to Roamio.


Dave, do you think those Bolt images you show on your website are possibly just temporary stand-in art? Those were found on TiVo's staging website, after all, and they don't look like photos but rather simple renderings. What I'm getting at is that maybe the new Bolt doesn't really look like that at all. Why risk going with such an unusual enclosure? Maybe if the curved bottom is vented then it allows for better heat dissipation, although I haven't really noticed that to be a problem with my Roamio (which I store in a closed cabinet).


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## Dan203

If they do change the case that drastically, I wonder if they'll release a new Mini with a similar design to match?


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## mrizzo80

rainwater said:


> But it already is offered as a OTT service. Just go to http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/nflws/index.jsp. You can subscribe to Sunday NFL Ticket on Xbox/PS3/PC/mobile/etc without a Directv subscription. The requirement to have Directv is no longer needed. I hardly see how a new box is going to really make a big difference. At this point, what hardware you have matters little to most of the big distributors since they are going to provide their services where most of the people are.


Not sure how much DirecTV enforces their own rules, but the Sunday Ticket streaming service comes with restrictions. You basically have to live in an apartment complex where you can't get satellite OR live in a few select cities where satellite likely doesn't work very well (NYC, etc).


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## rainwater

mrizzo80 said:


> Not sure how much DirecTV enforces their own rules, but the Sunday Ticket streaming service comes with restrictions. You basically have to live in an apartment complex where you can't get satellite OR live in a few select cities where satellite likely doesn't work very well (NYC, etc).


That is no longer the case. There are no restrictions this coming year.


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## cwoody222

NashGuy said:


> Dave, do you think those Bolt images you show on your website are possibly just temporary stand-in art? Those were found on TiVo's staging website, after all, and they don't look like photos but rather simple renderings. What I'm getting at is that maybe the new Bolt doesn't really look like that at all. Why risk going with such an unusual enclosure? Maybe if the curved bottom is vented then it allows for better heat dissipation, although I haven't really noticed that to be a problem with my Roamio (which I store in a closed cabinet).


I wondered the same.

Or if the drawings were just cheeky-style thumbnails for the navigation but the actual products are just rectangles like always.

That would be a RISKY product design for a fairly standard product (DVR). Unless the price point is LOW, I think lots of regular consumers would be scared.


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## HarperVision

mrizzo80 said:


> Not sure how much DirecTV enforces their own rules, but the Sunday Ticket streaming service comes with restrictions. You basically have to live in an apartment complex where you can't get satellite OR live in a few select cities where satellite likely doesn't work very well (NYC, etc).





rainwater said:


> That is no longer the case. There are no restrictions this coming year.


That's awesome, thanks! I knew there were restrictions before so I didn't check into it yet this year.


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## PSU_Sudzi

Dan203 said:


> I didn't know it was. my BIL will be very interested to know this. He's been bugging my Sister to switch to DTV for years, just for Sunday Ticket, but she refuses because she loves her TiVo and knows it doesn't work with DTV.


I recommend doing some more research on this, I believe the streaming version of Sunday Ticket is only available if you live in a location where DTV is not available, e.g. apartment or condo complex which won't allow an install. If you live in a private home and DTV is available in that area, you are not eligible.


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## HarperVision

rainwater said:


> But it already is offered as a OTT service. Just go to http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/nflws/index.jsp. You can subscribe to Sunday NFL Ticket on Xbox/PS3/PC/mobile/etc without a Directv subscription. The requirement to have Directv is no longer needed. I hardly see how a new box is going to really make a big difference. At this point, what hardware you have matters little to most of the big distributors since they are going to provide their services where most of the people are.


Where are you seeing there's no restrictions???

When I check the FAQs I see this:

To find out if you're eligible to purchase, please visit NFLSUNDAYTICKET.TV and select the "Check Eligibility" button.

At this time, NFLSUNDAYTICKET.TV is only available to the following consumers:

Residents who live in multidwelling units nationwide (apartments, condos, high-rise buildings, etc.)
Residents who live in select areas within various metropolitan cities
Residents currently enrolled in one of our participating four-year universities in the U.S.
Residents who live in a residence that has been verified as unable to receive DIRECTV satellite TV due to obstructions blocking access to satellite signals


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## davezatz

NashGuy said:


> Dave, do you think those Bolt images you show on your website are possibly just temporary stand-in art?


Given a subtle industry ping, I DO believe they ARE representative. However, given the unusual design, I wonder if they'll stick with Premiere/Roamio enclosures for cable partners like RCN.



Dan203 said:


> If they do change the case that drastically, I wonder if they'll release a new Mini with a similar design to match?


Yeah, if they intend to carry forward the Mini, I'd expect some sort of enclosure redesign as well. Unless the Bolt has other physical features that make it more Mini-like? There's also a possibility something like a Roku app could ultimately replace the Mini. But that's my wishful thinking and if it did come to pass, would they offer it for like $6/mo? That's what I'd do...


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## atmuscarella

davezatz said:


> ...There's also a possibility something like a Roku app could ultimately replace the Mini. ...


Do you think that tech in general has progressed enough that a TiVo trans-coding for a Roku/etc. app wouldn't degrade the picture enough for most people to see/care?


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## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> It still "could be" made available on a TiVo device though. I know the streaming DTV already exists which means it could be enhanced a little with a few more local type network channels and voila, OTT similar to Vue, but DTV branded instead. TWC has the same thing but currently only offered to its cable subscribers, but could easily be made available to anyone via IP OTT.
> 
> I made that reference to show they've had a prior relationship with both AT&T and DirecTV.
> 
> I guess we shall see, hopefully soon.


Well, yes, pretty much anything "could be" made available or done, but that doesn't mean it will be or that it is likely to at all.

AT&T's entire purpose of buying DirecTV, including their online platform, is to get people to watch on their cell phones. Through the app controlled by AT&T and DirecTV. The TiVo platform is not really significant enough for them to invest time into it. At best, you might see Xbox, Apple TV, or Roku apps but even then I doubt it for a very long time.

At any rate the chance of this coming to the TiVo Roamio or Bolt is zero.


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## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> Well, yes, pretty much anything "could be" made available or done, but that doesn't mean it will be or that it is likely to at all. AT&T's entire purpose of buying DirecTV, including their online platform, is to get people to watch on their cell phones. Through the app controlled by AT&T and DirecTV. The TiVo platform is not really significant enough for them to invest time into it. At best, you might see Xbox, Apple TV, or Roku apps but even then I doubt it for a very long time. At any rate the chance of this coming to the TiVo Roamio or Bolt is zero.


I would agree chances are "slim", but unless you have some insider info, you can't say zero because as we both have said, it "could be" done.

We shall see.


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## ncbill

$99 (or $24.99/month for 4 months) if I sign up under my kid's (at university) name.

tempting...



HarperVision said:


> Where are you seeing there's no restrictions???
> 
> When I check the FAQs I see this:
> 
> To find out if you're eligible to purchase, please visit NFLSUNDAYTICKET.TV and select the "Check Eligibility" button.
> 
> At this time, NFLSUNDAYTICKET.TV is only available to the following consumers:
> 
> Residents who live in multidwelling units nationwide (apartments, condos, high-rise buildings, etc.)
> Residents who live in select areas within various metropolitan cities
> Residents currently enrolled in one of our participating four-year universities in the U.S.
> Residents who live in a residence that has been verified as unable to receive DIRECTV satellite TV due to obstructions blocking access to satellite signals


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## Dan203

Ahhh bummer. Says my Sister's address is not eligible.


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## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> SSD is not well suited for DVRs anyway. They have a finite number of write cycles. With just the live buffer for 6 tuners you'd burn through the write cycles on an SSD rather quickly.


Comcast is using an SD card for the live TV buffering on some of their small X1 boxes.


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Comcast is using an SD card for the live TV buffering on some of their small X1 boxes.


Looks like SSDs have gotten a lot better in recent years. According to what I can find the average SSD has a life cycle of about 100,000 writes per sector. So assuming TiVo used a 32GB SSD, with 6 tuners running at 15Mbps the drive would be completely overwritten every 45 minutes or so, or 32 times a day. That would give it a life cycle of roughly 8.5 years. If you figure in lower bitrates from over compressed channels or H.264 encoding and it could last even longer. So maybe SSD is a viable solution.


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## Dixon Butz

Dan203 said:


> Looks like SSDs have gotten a lot better in recent years. According to what I can find the average SSD has a life cycle of about 100,000 writes per sector. So assuming TiVo used a 32GB SSD, with 6 tuners running at 15Mbps the drive would be completely overwritten every 45 minutes or so, or 32 times a day. That would give it a life cycle of roughly 8.5 years. If you figure in lower bitrates from over compressed channels or H.264 encoding and it could last even longer. So maybe SSD is a viable solution.


All consumer SSD's are MLC NAND. Each cell can be written to 5K-10K times. 
Enterprise SLC NAND SSD's cost 2X with up to 100K writes.


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## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> Looks like SSDs have gotten a lot better in recent years. According to what I can find the average SSD has a life cycle of about 100,000 writes per sector. So assuming TiVo used a 32GB SSD, with 6 tuners running at 15Mbps the drive would be completely overwritten every 45 minutes or so, or 32 times a day. That would give it a life cycle of roughly 8.5 years. If you figure in lower bitrates from over compressed channels or H.264 encoding and it could last even longer. So maybe SSD is a viable solution.


Maybe technically, but from a cost aspect it's not viable in the least.

Perhaps they could put in a small SSD for the operating system partition to speed up responsiveness but it would be really, really silly for the only drive in a DVR to be an SSD.


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> If they do change the case that drastically, I wonder if they'll release a new Mini with a similar design to match?


Just what I want. A white Mini


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## ncbill

There are now 2TB consumer SATA SSDs ($800-$1000), so someone could give it a try.



Dixon Butz said:


> All consumer SSD's are MLC NAND. Each cell can be written to 5K-10K times.
> Enterprise SLC NAND SSD's cost 2X with up to 100K writes.


----------



## Dan203

I just bought a 500GB for $170. (for my PC) That's the same as the Roamio Basic


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## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> Just what I want. A white Mini


Don't be racist.


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## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Looks like SSDs have gotten a lot better in recent years. According to what I can find the average SSD has a life cycle of about 100,000 writes per sector. So assuming TiVo used a 32GB SSD, with 6 tuners running at 15Mbps the drive would be completely overwritten every 45 minutes or so, or 32 times a day. That would give it a life cycle of roughly 8.5 years. If you figure in lower bitrates from over compressed channels or H.264 encoding and it could last even longer. So maybe SSD is a viable solution.


Yeah, they're getting better. I still think they're ill-suited to DVRs just because hard drives are bigger, cheaper, and good enough for a DVR. That being said, a computer without an SSD these days is crazy to me.


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## HarperVision

How do we know the Bolt is a replacement for the Roamio?

I was thinking maybe it could be a small streaming type device like a Roku that you can take and "Bolt" outta your house with and it has a collection of apps, one being the TiVo UI app that connects to your Roamio in home, like the mini and then uses the Stream functionality when away from home, a la' the old Slingcatcher. 

Maybe the Aereo edition is one that taps into a cloud service only, instead of your home Roamio?

When you look at the picture of the top of the TiVo website menu it starts at "Discover TiVo" with the left side cut off, which could still in actuality show the Roamio drop down menus as the main DVR still. 

Just a thought that popped into my head and thought I'd throw it out there.


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## Dan203

It was submitted to CableLabs for CableCARD approval. That means it's a DVR.


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## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> It was submitted to CableLabs for CableCARD approval. That means it's a DVR.


Good point. 

Could there be any other reason to be submitted to them? Some other form of IP Security, etc?


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## Dan203

No, DLNA DTCP has already been approved by CableLabs and certification is handled by DLNA.


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## series5orpremier

The name Bolt suggests something very speedy and fast, as in lightning bolt or Usain Bolt, so in the interest of honest advertising it should have at least a little bit faster processor. But whoever said TiVo was honest?


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## jonw747

HarperVision said:


> Good point.
> 
> Could there be any other reason to be submitted to them? Some other form of IP Security, etc?


It's a hunch that the Bolt was the product submitted presumably based on the wording in the leaked web page that differentiated the Bolt offerings.

One was called the "Unified Entertainment System" and the other is called the "Aereo Edition".

If Aereo is the variation of the Bolt they intend to target toward cord cutters, then what does "Unified Entertainment" imply? Sounds like it might include support for cable systems ...

It seems like a pretty solid hunch.

Seems to me this re-branding may very well be limited to the entry-level Roamio and the Roamio OTA. If they can drive their costs even lower and then also justify lowering the lifetime/subscription rates, they'd have some products a lot more attractive to the lower end of the market. They might even consider dropping the remote from the package to cut the prices even lower. People who want it could then add it, but a lot of people prefer to use their phones/tablets to control stuff and might not even hook the device to a TV.

The Roamio Plus and Roamio Pro are nice boxes that already address the higher-end of the market. It may be detrimental to their established market to mess too much with the styling and branding of those products.

At least until they're ready to take another step in technology.

Something to keep in mind ... the Aereo was priced at $8 a month and that bought you all of 20 hours of DVR space. $12 a month got you 60 hours. By comparison, the Roamio OTA provides 500 hours. So, they really need to lower that subscription price to get the Aereo customers on board. Due to upload constraints, a cloud based service may not make sense; but replacing the 500GB HD in the Roamio OTA with a 32GB USB3 Thumb Drive might.


----------



## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> I'm also thinking cloud storage may not be on the docket at this time for all the reasons mentioned and even issues just keeping TiVo Online available for logins. So Box 1 would have least storage (500MB?), Box 2 middle (1TB?), Box 3 high-end (3TB?).


I was wondering why "Bolt"... and your comment re: cloud storage would seem to make the most sense: your shows are available lightning-fast from the cloud. I can't think of anything else that would warrant the product/model branding confusion.

And a "Bolt" cloud-storage family of TiVos could then parallel the local-storage Roamios.


----------



## JosephB

series5orpremier said:


> The name Bolt suggests something very speedy and fast, as in lightning bolt or Usain Bolt, so in the interest of honest advertising it should have at least a little bit faster processor. But whoever said TiVo was honest?


That is definitely possible, one reason for the refresh might be TiVo's chipset provider is ending production of the specific chips and they need to bump up to a higher speed chip. Total speculation but that's something that could change without requiring a redesign of the internals of the box, but also trigger a recertification with CableLabs


----------



## jrtroo

I'm still thinking that the design could be to allow Tivo to get out of providing hard drives with these units. Not so much for a cloud solution, but instead a bring your own drive approach where WD certifies a handful of drives for us to purchase. It goes bad, go buy another.


----------



## tarheelblue32

jrtroo said:


> I'm still thinking that the design could be to allow Tivo out of providing hard drives with these units. Not so much of a cloud solution, but instead of a bring your own drive approach where WD certifies a handful of drives for us to purchase. It goes bad, go buy another.


Basically the Tablo model. I think that would be a mistake. TiVo should always be selling a finished product, not a build-your-own DVR kit. TiVo's biggest problem is that its setup is already too complicated for the average person. Adding another layer, even if it is as simple is plugging in an external USB hard drive, would be detrimental.


----------



## Dan203

jrtroo said:


> I'm still thinking that the design could be to allow Tivo out of providing hard drives with these units. Not so much of a cloud solution, but instead of a bring your own drive approach where WD certifies a handful of drives for us to purchase. It goes bad, go buy another.


TiVo would never do that. They are the simple solution your grandma can use. If they go that route then they'll only target hard core geeks.

I think it's more likely the little graphics were just place holders and the box wont actually look anything like that. Or perhaps just caricature type drawing of the actual box with exaggerated curves.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> TiVo would never do that. They are the simple solution your grandma can use. If they go that route then they'll only target hard core geeks. I think it's more likely the little graphics were just place holders and the box wont actually look anything like that. Or perhaps just caricature type drawing of the actual box with exaggerated curves.


But what if the Bolt is a supplemental product adding to their lineup instead of replacing the Roamio line, which would be left for grandma?


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> But what if the Bolt is a supplemental product adding to their lineup instead of replacing the Roamio line, which would be left for grandma?


And why would TiVo want to stop putting hard drives in units, when they make more money selling the Roamio Pro and the only difference between it and the Plus is a bigger hard drive? Just adding a larger hard drive to a unit is a really simple way for TiVo to boost the profit margin on a DVR.


----------



## krkaufman

jrtroo said:


> I'm still thinking that the design could be to allow Tivo out of providing hard drives with these units. Not so much of a cloud solution, but instead of a bring your own drive approach where WD certifies a handful of drives for us to purchase. It goes bad, go buy another.


Yeah, that could be possible, but I wouldn't think such a box would warrant the additional product name confusion; that could simply be an extension of the Roamio family.

My money's firmly on a cloud storage capability. (Bolt ... lightning... zapped to the ground from the cloud...) And now I just can't see the "Bolt" naming making any sense, otherwise.

----
edit: p.s. ... though I have to wonder why existing Roamio's couldn't do cloud-storage, with a software update. I still think it's cloud-related, but not sure if it's a service or an addition to the hardware product line.


----------



## aaronwt

I would expect there to a be a recurring fee(monthly or yearly) if they offer cloud storage. That would need to be in addition to lifetime service.


----------



## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> Yeah, that could be possible, but I wouldn't think such a box would warrant the additional product name confusion; that could simply be an extension of the Roamio family.
> 
> My money's firmly on a cloud storage capability. (Bolt ... lightning... zapped to the ground from the cloud...) And now I just can't see the "Bolt" naming making any sense, otherwise.
> 
> ----
> edit: p.s. ... though I have to wonder why existing Roamio's couldn't do cloud-storage, with a software update. I still think it's cloud-related, but not sure if it's a service or an addition to the hardware product line.


See my earlier post #54 in this thread. I think, if Bolt has cloud storage, it will just be as an extra feature, not something integral to its everyday functioning. As I point out, a certain amount of local storage in the Bolt would be necessary for the initial recording of shows before uploading to the cloud. From either a cost or quality user experience perspective, I just can't see how a central reliance on cloud storage makes sense for TiVo.

I guess the exception to what I just said is if TiVo has found a way to legally do what Aereo was doing, which would mean that shows are not recorded from cable or OTA on your Bolt, they're actually recorded on TiVo servers in the cloud and then streamed down to the Bolt for later playback. In that case, no hard drive would be needed and only a modest amount of RAM for local caching of the stream. From a hardware perspective, it would be very similar to streaming players like Apple TV and Roku.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> And why would TiVo want to stop putting hard drives in units, when they make more money selling the Roamio Pro and the only difference between it and the Plus is a bigger hard drive? Just adding a larger hard drive to a unit is a really simple way for TiVo to boost the profit margin on a DVR.


Exactly. Same reason Apple charges $100 for an extra 16GB of storage even though you can buy a 16GB SSD on Amazon for $8.


----------



## jonw747

TiVo wants to cash in on the Aereo name and customer base. Those guys accept a subscription for what they're getting but it's far less than TiVo charges and they didn't have to buy any hardware.

So whatever TiVo supplies in the Aereo model it needs to be cheap, simple, and easy to setup/manage from a phone. Could they include an integrated antenna? Storage may very well only include enough to buffer a program long enough to send it to the cloud. 

Like I said before, a remote control could be left as an option, but in theory they could just cut out all the hardware to interface the box to a TV. If someone does want to stream to a TV, than they could do so with the Mini. 

And somehow it needs to leave their existing customer base that's willing to pay more for hardware/subscription alone. If you look at it that way, adding Bolt as a new brand (and cutting out TV features) makes a lot of sense. 

If TiVo isn't keeping this in mind (cheap/free h/w, <$10 subs, phone/tablet centric), then I'm afraid they're going to confuse their markets rather than create a new one.


----------



## tarheelblue32

jonw747 said:


> If TiVo isn't keeping this in mind (cheap/free h/w, <$10 subs, phone/tablet centric), then I'm afraid they're going to confuse their markets rather than create a new one.


I'm not sure that TiVo could even turn a profit with free hardware and under $10/month subscriptions. I think that's probably asking too much.


----------



## jrtroo

tarheelblue32 said:


> And why would TiVo want to stop putting hard drives in units, when they make more money selling the Roamio Pro and the only difference between it and the Plus is a bigger hard drive? Just adding a larger hard drive to a unit is a really simple way for TiVo to boost the profit margin on a DVR.


Big reduction in support costs. "Its not us, its them."

Instead the drive goes to WD, who now certifies and charges a higher retail price. Some of that difference kicks back to Tivo.

As another poster noted, this is in addition to Roamio being offered. Perhaps four flavors overall: Roamio Base and 2TB, Bolt OTA and "As much as you need". Could also explain why they went to the expense to move the OS off of the drive.

Just throwing out the possibility...


----------



## Dan203

jonw747 said:


> TiVo wants to cash in on the Aereo name and customer base. Those guys accept a subscription for what they're getting but it's far less than TiVo charges and they didn't have to buy any hardware.
> 
> So whatever TiVo supplies in the Aereo model it needs to be cheap, simple, and easy to setup/manage from a phone. Could they include an integrated antenna? Storage may very well only include enough to buffer a program long enough to send it to the cloud.
> 
> Like I said before, a remote control could be left as an option, but in theory they could just cut out all the hardware to interface the box to a TV. If someone does want to stream to a TV, than they could do so with the Mini.
> 
> And somehow it needs to leave their existing customer base that's willing to pay more for hardware/subscription alone. If you look at it that way, adding Bolt as a new brand (and cutting out TV features) makes a lot of sense.
> 
> If TiVo isn't keeping this in mind (cheap/free h/w, <$10 subs, phone/tablet centric), then I'm afraid they're going to confuse their markets rather than create a new one.


Aereo is gone. Their model didn't work. TiVo is trying to cash in on the name but they don't have to compete with Aereo on price.


----------



## jonw747

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm not sure that TiVo could even turn a profit with free hardware and under $10/month subscriptions. I think that's probably asking too much.


They're selling the current Roamio OTA for $50 (recently $38 on special at Frys) with a $15/mon subscription, so, they're not all that far off if they can cut production costs even leaner with the new hardware.

They spent $1M to purchase a 100,000 name mailing list and the rights to use the word "Aereo".

If they could capture 20,000 of those customers by basically giving away hardware, what are we talking? Well, $50M x 20,000 would be another $1M total (but technically not even that much).

If they're successful, at $8/mon, those 20,000 customers would generate $2M in subscriptions in just the first year.

Not bad?

Combined with some other ideas for monetizing the service and selling options, they could carve out a nice new market; otoh, if they stick to their old ways, they'll miss the market and end up with a dog.

Am I giving them too much credit? I hope not. It's not hard to understand the business plan to suck in people who figured $8/mon was a reasonable price to pay to be able to stream TV to their phones, tablets, and other streaming devices.

Now let's put a bow on this. I mentioned they could sell TiVo Mini's to customers who wanted to stream to their TV, but they can't cut the cost of the Mini too low without losing money from their traditional base. Well, they don't have to. What they need to do is support Chromecasting, or come out with a Fire TV App, and for < $50, anyone could stream from a TiVo Aereo cloud service to their TV.

So to summarize, this is what would make sense to me, at least for the Aereo Bolt version:

- hardware highly discounted or free
- built-in HD antenna
- built-in WiFi (plug the box in, and drop it near a Window)
- subscription starts at $8/mon
- cloud base service like Aereo
- minimal storage - just enough to buffer recordings
- no television output
- no remote control
- everything is built around phone/tablet App
- support for popular streaming boxes (Roku, FireTV, Chromecast, etc)

That could work, IMO, that is until the providers wake up and realize they could offer the same service and wouldn't have to bother to build any hardware to provide it. TiVo will need to provide more value, and as "One Pass" evolves - that just might do it.

After all, the only reason they're still in the DVR market is because they do it better. Maybe they have some new patents in the works to protect themselves?


----------



## jonw747

Dan203 said:


> Aereo is gone. Their model didn't work. TiVo is trying to cash in on the name but they don't have to compete with Aereo on price.


Sure, but there are reasons that Aereo gained 100k customers, and this is not a my way or the highway situation. Hit the wrong price point for that market, and you won't get any of that market.


----------



## Dan203

I think the biggest draw of Aereo was....

1) The ability to get OTA in situations where putting up an antenna was not really possible. (i.e. apartment surrounded by other buildings)

2) The ability to skirt NFL blackout rules and see games in a town you didn't actually live in.

TiVo can't really appeal to either of those crowds, so I'm not sure how much of the Aereo market they're going to get anyway.


----------



## tarheelblue32

dan203 said:


> i think the biggest draw of aereo was....
> 
> 1) the ability to get ota in situations where putting up an antenna was not really possible. (i.e. Apartment surrounded by other buildings)
> 
> 2) the ability to skirt nfl blackout rules and see games in a town you didn't actually live in.
> 
> Tivo can't really appeal to either of those crowds, so i'm not sure how much of the aereo market they're going to get anyway.


+1


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Aereo had 80,000 customers.

They wanted the name, first are foremost. If Tivo can pull along some of the customers to a legit OTA solution of their own, then all the better. I don't think they're going to bend over backwards and twist their metrics and business into knots to appease this base. If there's a comprehensive cloud service coming, which I tend to think is more wishful thinking than likely, they'll do things their own way.

That most likely involves a DVR as the central hub as they expand into Apple TV's and sticks and Rokus and Chromecasts and thingamabobs.


----------



## jonw747

Dan203 said:


> I think the biggest draw of Aereo was....
> 
> 1) The ability to get OTA in situations where putting up an antenna was not really possible. (i.e. apartment surrounded by other buildings)
> 
> 2) The ability to skirt NFL blackout rules and see games in a town you didn't actually live in.
> 
> TiVo can't really appeal to either of those crowds, so I'm not sure how much of the Aereo market they're going to get anyway.


That's certainly one draw, but I'd hope TiVo considered that before spending $1M to obtain a mailing list and a brand.

For one thing, these are people who were willing to actually spend money on a subscription and didn't just pirate what they wanted. That alone is worth something.


----------



## jonw747

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Aereo had 80,000 customers.


Oops, I miss typed. I'd read there were 100k names in the list. If that's true, and their active customers were holding at 80k, that sounds pretty good to me churn wise.



BigJimOutlaw said:


> They wanted the name, first are foremost. If Tivo can pull along some of the customers to a legit OTA solution of their own, then all the better. I don't think they're going to bend over backwards and twist their metrics and business into knots to appease this base. If there's a cloud service coming, they'll do things their own way.


I'm not reading it that way. The name doesn't mean anything without the right offering, and slapping the same solution in to a curvy white box with the name Aereo on it, would just cost TiVo money IMO.

Plus there's no harm in them bending over backwards to appease this new customer base if they can do it in a way that doesn't cost them money from their existing base.

That's why I'm thinking the Bolt might be very different...


----------



## JosephB

jrtroo said:


> I'm still thinking that the design could be to allow Tivo out of providing hard drives with these units. Not so much of a cloud solution, but instead of a bring your own drive approach where WD certifies a handful of drives for us to purchase. It goes bad, go buy another.


That would be silly. A hard drive is like $50. In the grand scheme of the costs of the box, it's one of the lowest. They have more invested in software development on the thing than they do the hard drive.


----------



## jrtroo

Exactly why you get out of the drive business. Its not the cost of the drive, its the cost of supporting the drive.


----------



## tarheelblue32

jrtroo said:


> Exactly why you get out of the drive business. Its not the cost of the drive, its the cost of supporting the drive.


Um, what exactly is the cost to TiVo of "supporting the drive"?


----------



## krkaufman

jrtroo said:


> Exactly why you get out of the drive business. Its not the cost of the drive, its the cost of supporting the drive.


I truly believe TiVo's support costs would not go DOWN were they to begin offering BYOD DVRs.


----------



## davezatz

I think a lucrative model for them, as long as the video quality isn't seriously compromised and the experience is efficient, is a TiVo client for Roku, Fire TV, etc that runs $6/mo. That's how DISH and DirecTV prices it. So TiVo doesn't have to build, package, or sell hardware - just an app with a reasonable, recurring service fee. Who knows if that will coincide with Bolt or if it'll have any fees, but they have shown variations of Roku and Fire TV apps previously.

My thoughts are taking me further _away_ from "cloud" storage this week. Thinking the new hardware just takes advantage of cheaper, smaller, newer parts that also coincides with a hipper rebrand. Not that a arched white plastic set-top is hip. Hopefully this newer, cheaper, smaller hardware is also faster. Although I think most UI speed things are software approaches versus chipset - like the apps could cache more locally to speed launch.


----------



## jonw747

davezatz said:


> I think a lucrative model for them, as long as the video quality isn't seriously compromised and the experience is efficient, is a TiVo client for Roku, Fire TV, etc that runs $6/mo. That's how DISH and DirecTV prices it. So TiVo doesn't have to build, package, or sell hardware - just an app with a reasonable, recurring service fee. Who knows if that will coincide with Bolt or if it'll have any fees, but they have shown variations of Roku and Fire TV apps previously.


The video has to come from somewhere, and TiVo doesn't have the deals in place with the providers, so it makes sense for them to continue to leverage OTA, cable card, and hopefully look forward towards new technologies that will someday supplant those.


----------



## davezatz

jonw747 said:


> The video has to come from somewhere, and TiVo doesn't have the deals in place with the providers, so it makes sense for them to continue to leverage OTA, cable card, and hopefully look forward towards new technologies that will someday supplant those.


I mean client apps instead of (or in addition to) Mini. I'm going to go ahead and assume all Bolt variants include Stream functionality...


----------



## jrtroo

tarheelblue32 said:


> Um, what exactly is the cost to TiVo of "supporting the drive"?


Pretty much the only thing that goes bad on a tivo is the drive. And so any bad drive causes support calls, upset customers, ect., who primarily will blame Tivo for the problem and be POd for the price to replace/repair.

So, make the drive an add on and its no longer Tivo's fault. Everyone knows drives go bad. No phone call, no bad feelings, ect. You find you want a larger drive, just go get one.


----------



## tarheelblue32

jrtroo said:


> Pretty much the only thing that goes bad on a tivo is the drive. And so any bad drive causes support calls, upset customers, ect., who primarily will blame Tivo for the problem and be POd for the price to replace/repair.
> 
> So, make the drive an add on and its no longer Tivo's fault. Everyone knows drives go bad. No phone call, no bad feelings, ect. You find you want a larger drive, just go get one.


So in exchange for being able to mark up the cost of an internal hard drive 100% (pure profit), TiVo might get a few less phone calls where they tell the customer the hard drive is bad? Doesn't sound like a great tradeoff to me. And honestly, anyone who doesn't know how to change out an internal hard drive will still be picking up the phone and calling TiVo support when their external hard drive goes bad.


----------



## nephipower

krkaufman said:


> Yeah, that could be possible, but I wouldn't think such a box would warrant the additional product name confusion; that could simply be an extension of the Roamio family.
> 
> My money's firmly on a cloud storage capability. (Bolt ... lightning... zapped to the ground from the cloud...) And now I just can't see the "Bolt" naming making any sense, otherwise.
> 
> ----
> edit: p.s. ... though I have to wonder why existing Roamio's couldn't do cloud-storage, with a software update. I still think it's cloud-related, but not sure if it's a service or an addition to the hardware product line.


Everyone who thinks the Bolt is a Cloud only device is overlooking a crucially important detail.

That REQUIRES a LOT of upload bandwidth.

Recording video results in very large files, even for MPEG4 video. Most ISP connections don't have large upload bandwidth. So it would take a very long time for most customers to upload the recorded video in a timely manner.

Since very few people have something like Google Fiber or AT&T Gigapower. Having a device that is completely designed around recording locally and then requiring it to be uploaded immediately to the Cloud is fundamentally not a good product. Most of their potentially customers simply won't have the upload bandwidth to support that kind of functionality.

Also I do not think that Tivo would set something up to record OTA from the server side and stream it down to customers. That has been suggested by a few in this thread. That exact scenario is exactly what got Aereo to be sued out of oblivion.

The Tivo CEO has already said publicly that they are going to do a legal version of Aereo.

My guess is that means the Tivo Bolt Aereo is basically like the existing Roamio OTA with streaming built in. Hopefully a little faster UI.


----------



## JosephB

davezatz said:


> I mean client apps instead of (or in addition to) Mini. I'm going to go ahead and assume all Bolt variants include Stream functionality...


They even demo'd this when they switched to Haxe. I can't figure out why they haven't done that yet. I would kill for an Xbox One and Xbox 360 TiVo app


----------



## tarheelblue32

JosephB said:


> They even demo'd this when they switched to Haxe. I can't figure out why they haven't done that yet. I would kill for an Xbox One and Xbox 360 TiVo app


How much would you be willing to pay for it?


----------



## JosephB

tarheelblue32 said:


> How much would you be willing to pay for it?


At least the service fee that I pay for my mini.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JosephB said:


> At least the service fee that I pay for my mini.


So $6/month?


----------



## tenthplanet

jrtroo said:


> Pretty much the only thing that goes bad on a tivo is the drive. And so any bad drive causes support calls, upset customers, ect., who primarily will blame Tivo for the problem and be POd for the price to replace/repair.
> 
> So, make the drive an add on and its no longer Tivo's fault. Everyone knows drives go bad. No phone call, no bad feelings, ect. You find you want a larger drive, just go get one.


 A Tivo is basically a dedicated Linux computer. Computer power supplies go bad, motherboards fail, hdmi connectors fail. A lot more things can go wrong than a hard drive, and do.


----------



## HarperVision

nephipower said:


> Everyone who thinks the Bolt is a Cloud only device is overlooking a crucially important detail. That REQUIRES a LOT of upload bandwidth. Recording video results in very large files, even for MPEG4 video. Most ISP connections don't have large upload bandwidth. So it would take a very long time for most customers to upload the recorded video in a timely manner. Since very few people have something like Google Fiber or AT&T Gigapower. Having a device that is completely designed around recording locally and then requiring it to be uploaded immediately to the Cloud is fundamentally not a good product. Most of their potentially customers simply won't have the upload bandwidth to support that kind of functionality. Also I do not think that Tivo would set something up to record OTA from the server side and stream it down to customers. That has been suggested by a few in this thread. That exact scenario is exactly what got Aereo to be sued out of oblivion. *The Tivo CEO has already said publicly that they are going to do a legal version of Aereo. *My guess is that means the Tivo Bolt Aereo is basically like the existing Roamio OTA with streaming built in. Hopefully a little faster UI.


Which means all they have to do is pay the broadcast licensing fees to the networks.


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> Which means all they have to do is pay the broadcast licensing fees to the networks.


No it doesn't. He didn't mean exactly the way Aereo did it using their equipment and being a totally hosted/cloud service. He meant a DVR in your house with streaming capability. It means something that already exists that is already in the market.


----------



## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> No it doesn't. He didn't mean exactly the way Aereo did it using their equipment and being a totally hosted/cloud service. He meant a DVR in your house with streaming capability. It means something that already exists that is already in the market.


Yes it does. If Aereo would've applied for and gotten broadcast licensing and paid the fees then it would've been legal.


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> Yes it does. If Aereo would've applied for and gotten broadcast licensing then it would've been legal.


But that is not what TiVo is talking about doing. They are not going to do cloud based OTA DVR in every city. They're going to sell you a DVR + service and you record it in your house and stream it with your internet connection. That is how they're making their version legal.


----------



## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> But that is not what TiVo is talking about doing. They are not going to do cloud based OTA DVR in every city. They're going to sell you a DVR + service and you record it in your house and stream it with your internet connection. That is how they're making their version legal.


I was ONLY replying to what he said that I highlighted in *BOLD*. If they "wanted" to do a "legal version" of Aereo, then what I said is true. The version you're talking about and it appears they're going to do isn't really the "Aereo" concept, now is it???


----------



## jonw747

nephipower said:


> That REQUIRES a LOT of upload bandwidth.
> 
> Recording video results in very large files, even for MPEG4 video. Most ISP connections don't have large upload bandwidth. So it would take a very long time for most customers to upload the recorded video in a timely manner.


Alas, if someone doesn't have the bandwidth it would take to stream to the cloud in real time, they're going to have problems streaming to their phone.

It's easier to work around the cloud recording issue, though, you just need a sufficient buffer. It wouldn't take a hard drive, a small flash disk should cover it. They make a variation on the MicroSDHC card that solders directly to a circuit board just for that sort of application.


----------



## jonw747

HarperVision said:


> Yes it does. If Aereo would've applied for and gotten broadcast licensing and paid the fees then it would've been legal.


Aereo went to a lot of bother to avoid paying those fees, I've got to imagine the price the networks & providers are asking is prohibitive.

TiVo has a good idea to combine streaming & DVR capabilities and make it easier, more integrated, and better. Their biggest risk is a paradigm shift in the market.


----------



## nephipower

jonw747 said:


> Alas, if someone doesn't have the bandwidth it would take to stream to the cloud in real time, they're going to have problems streaming to their phone.
> 
> It's easier to work around the cloud recording issue, though, you just need a sufficient buffer. It wouldn't take a hard drive, a small flash disk should cover it. They make a variation on the MicroSDHC card that solders directly to a circuit board just for that sort of application.


That is incorrect on multiple parts.

That part I was talking about before is *upload* bandwidth. The part most people pay attention to is download bandwidth. Someone can have great download bandwidth and still not have fast upload bandwidth. Which means they could stream down from the cloud just fine.

Even if you have a buffer that doesn't matter. For someone who has a small 1-2 mbit upload bandwidth it could take them days to just upload one show that is multiple gigabytes.

So the whole upload immediately idea is really not feasible for the mass market. What the more realistic solution is providing the Tivo Stream functionality right into the Tivo Bolt.


----------



## nephipower

JosephB said:


> But that is not what TiVo is talking about doing. They are not going to do cloud based OTA DVR in every city. They're going to sell you a DVR + service and you record it in your house and stream it with your internet connection. That is how they're making their version legal.


Exactly


----------



## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> But that is not what TiVo is talking about doing. They are not going to do cloud based OTA DVR in every city. They're going to sell you a DVR + service and you record it in your house and stream it with your internet connection. That is how they're making their version legal.





nephipower said:


> Exactly


I never said they weren't:



HarperVision said:


> I was ONLY replying to what he said that I highlighted in BOLD. If they "wanted" to do a "legal version" of Aereo, then what I said is true. The version you're talking about and it appears they're going to do isn't really the "Aereo" concept, now is it???


----------



## jonw747

nephipower said:


> That is incorrect on multiple parts.
> 
> That part I was talking about before is *upload* bandwidth. The part most people pay attention to is download bandwidth. Someone can have great download bandwidth and still not have fast upload bandwidth. Which means they could stream down from the cloud just fine.
> 
> Even if you have a buffer that doesn't matter. For someone who has a small 1-2 mbit upload bandwidth it could take them days to just upload one show that is multiple gigabytes.
> 
> So the whole upload immediately idea is really not feasible for the mass market. What the more realistic solution is providing the Tivo Stream functionality right into the Tivo Bolt.


For customers who want to stream within their local network your correct, but I was referring to those who want to be able to stream out of their network to their phone.

There's also the question of quality.

Most streaming these days is done at 5 megabits per second or less. A SlingBox can provide a decent picture with only 1-2 megabits per second.

For those who are more than happy with "streaming quality" the target math is really simple for a cloud solution ... their upload speed just has to be reasonable compared to their desired download speed AND the box would need to provide some quality settings.

So, someone with a 1 megabit connection, could select 1 megabit quality, and then a one hour show for them would be uploaded and ready to stream in about an hour (not days).

Is this a solution for everybody? Of course not, but trying to hit all markets with one product isn't a good idea if there are serious tradeoffs and major differences in needs.

The new curvy white box seems to indicate that TiVo recognizes that Aereo customers are a distinct market from their Roamio customers. It's possible they may try to make both sets of customers happy with the same product. We'll have to see? It's just the risks are high. If they go that way they risk missing the mark with both.


----------



## bradleys

Anyone who think that TiVo's Aero marketing is insinuating that they are going to pay broadcasters to redistribute content - is (in the most respectful way) bonkers.

They are packaging all the local and premium streaming services provided by the content owners along with a standard OTA DVR. 

You will need to supply your own antenna... Replacing doesn't mean duplicating.


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> Anyone who think that TiVo's Aero marketing is insinuating that they are going to pay broadcasters to redistribute content - is (in the most respectful way) bonkers. They are packaging all the local and premium streaming services provided by the content owners along with a standard OTA DVR. You will need to supply your own antenna... Replacing doesn't mean duplicating.


If you're speaking about me, I wasn't saying that either. The only person that's "bonkers" is Rodgers saying that their version of "Aereo" is the same as the original.


----------



## bradleys

HarperVision said:


> If you're speaking about me, I wasn't saying that either. The only person that's "bonkers" is Rodgers saying that their version of "Aereo" is the same as the original.


I was speaking globally - Anyone who thinks that is what Rodgers said is projecting. I would like to see the quote where Rodgers said that their version of "Aereo" is the "same" as the original.

As far as I know he never said that and you are projecting on simple marketing speak. He said a legal version of Aereo, something that addresses the "needs" of the OTA crowd. He never talked about the model and he certainly never said they were duplicating the product.

Legal version of Aereo uses existing broadcast streams from the content owners, it doesn't create it's own broadcast streams and it certainly doesn't insinuate in any sense a cloud DVR vs. a local DVR.

The Quote:


> TiVo CEO Tom Rogers told Multichannel News that his company, mostly known for its DVRs, is planning to launch a service that is "kind of the Aero model, done legally and better."


A poor interpretation of the quote:


HarperVision said:


> ...Rodgers saying that their version of "Aereo" is the same as the original.


----------



## aaronwt

nephipower said:


> Everyone who thinks the Bolt is a Cloud only device is overlooking a crucially important detail.
> 
> That REQUIRES a LOT of upload bandwidth.
> 
> Recording video results in very large files, even for MPEG4 video. Most ISP connections don't have large upload bandwidth. So it would take a very long time for most customers to upload the recorded video in a timely manner.
> 
> Since very few people have something like Google Fiber or AT&T Gigapower. Having a device that is completely designed around recording locally and then requiring it to be uploaded immediately to the Cloud is fundamentally not a good product. Most of their potentially customers simply won't have the upload bandwidth to support that kind of functionality.
> 
> Also I do not think that Tivo would set something up to record OTA from the server side and stream it down to customers. That has been suggested by a few in this thread. That exact scenario is exactly what got Aereo to be sued out of oblivion.
> 
> The Tivo CEO has already said publicly that they are going to do a legal version of Aereo.
> 
> My guess is that means the Tivo Bolt Aereo is basically like the existing Roamio OTA with streaming built in. Hopefully a little faster UI.


They could always do what the BoxeeTv did. It compressed the recording that was uploaded. Of course the quailty suffered and it converted it to stereo from 5.1, but the process did actually work well. But I wouldn't want that for my recordings since I have the bandwidth to handle no extra compresiion.


----------



## Dan203

Remember when the name Roamio leaked and we all, including myself, said that it couldn't possibly be the name of a real product and that it must be some sort of internal code name? What does everyone think of the name "Bolt"?


----------



## bradleys

aaronwt said:


> They coukld alway do what the BoxeeTv did. It compressed the recording that was uploaded. Of course the quailty suffered and it converted it to stereo from 5.1, but the process did actually work well. But I wouldn't want that fo rmy recordings since I have the bandwidth to handle no extra comptr


I don't know if they will do a cloud DVR itself, although it is possible and they are demoed something similar in the past.

But we may be finally moving away from the point of keeping a separate copy for every show, for everyone.

(Not commenting on the efficacy of the solution) A simple expansion of the OnePass streaming reference model against all the new steaming services from ABC / NBC / CBS would accomplish the tagging, inventory and delivery of local content.

If TiVo were to make a deal with these services and act as a consolidator - that would be an interesting model.

Eventually (later then sooner, I hope) the industry is going to push us away from linear cable / TV that necessitates the copy and save DVR, toward a content on demand model. This will allow them to recapture the control of the advertisement.


----------



## bradleys

Dan203 said:


> Remember when the name Roamio leaked and we all, including myself, said that it couldn't possibly be the name of a real product and that it must be some sort of internal code name? What does everyone think of the name "Bolt"?


A dog, that thinks he is a real super hero, but really he is just a normal dog.

Translation: A device that thinks it is a DVR, but really is just a streaming aggregator? (I am such a pessimist!)


----------



## krkaufman

nephipower said:


> What the more realistic solution is providing the Tivo Stream functionality right into the Tivo Bolt.


Possibly; but it doesn't really explain the "Bolt" name. Built-in Stream integration would just be an extension of their previous push... mobile streaming... married to the "Roamio" marketing theme. (i.e. watch your content whilst roaming)


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> I was speaking globally - Anyone who thinks that is what Rodgers said is projecting. I would like to see the quote where Rodgers said that their version of "Aereo" is the "same" as the original. As far as I know he never said that and you are projecting on simple marketing speak. He said a legal version of Aereo, something that addresses the "needs" of the OTA crowd. He never talked about the model and he certainly never said they were duplicating the product. Legal version of Aereo uses existing broadcast streams from the content owners, it doesn't create it's own broadcast streams and it certainly doesn't insinuate in any sense a cloud DVR vs. a local DVR. The Quote: A poor interpretation of the quote:


Are you even reading what I'm writing??? I'm saying the same thing you are!!! That their version IS NOT the same as the original Aereo model and Rodgers is bonkers for even insinuating that it is.


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> A dog, that thinks he is a real super hero, but really he is just a normal dog. Translation: A device that thinks it is a DVR, but really is just a streaming aggregator? (I am such a pessimist!)


Haha, I was going to post the exact same picture! Hopefully this new product won't be a "dog"!


----------



## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> I guess the exception to what I just said is if TiVo has found a way to legally do what Aereo was doing, which would mean that shows are not recorded from cable or OTA on your Bolt, they're actually recorded on TiVo servers in the cloud and then streamed down to the Bolt for later playback. In that case, no hard drive would be needed and only a modest amount of RAM for local caching of the stream. From a hardware perspective, it would be very similar to streaming players like Apple TV and Roku.


I'm leaning this way, as well; though, rather than some new tech/legal breakthrough allowing true Aereo-like capabilities, I expect it's just a shift in marketing emphasis from the mobile streaming features (aligned w/ the "Roamio" theme) to one emphasizing the more recent OnePass integration of streaming apps (i.e. content zapped down from the cloud, fast as a bolt of lightning).

A simple marketing shift would also be in line with the underwhelming Aereo.com updates recently reported. As for the reported new hardware, I could see the new devices simply being the OTA and Basic models with the addition of built-in Stream modules, and maybe with larger HDDs.


----------



## bradleys

HarperVision said:


> Are you even reading what I'm writing??? I'm saying the same thing you are!!! That their version IS NOT the same as the original Aereo model and Rodgers is bonkers for even insinuating that it is.


I wasn't specifically pointing my original comment at you. Several people have expressed the point that tivo has to rebroadcast content in order to create an Aero competitive product.

And while the end product won't be the "same", tivo never said it would be. Just done "legally" and "better". (From their perspective anyway.


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> I wasn't specifically pointing my original comment at you. Several people have expressed the point that tivo has to rebroadcast content in order to create an Aero competitive product. And while the end product won't be the "same", tivo never said it would be. Just done "legally" and "better". (From their perspective anyway.


Fair enough.


----------



## krkaufman

bradleys said:


> Translation: A device that thinks it is a DVR, but really is just a streaming aggregator?


Hilarious! And hopefully off-target.

TiVo's only edge is the DVR recording capability; other devices are far ahead in streaming content, even if those other devices haven't yet aggregated the streaming content in the way TiVo has with OnePass. (i.e. If I had to choose between streaming devices, I'd go with the one that has the greater access to streaming content over the one that aggregates a more limited catalog into a merged listing.)


----------



## HarperVision

One thing I just thought of though. While they may not be creating their own streaming "cable" service, who says they couldn't have come to an agreement with SlingTV and/or PS Vue to offer their apps and versions of said services? Sling is on many devices already and Vue has already stepped away from just Sony platforms with the introduction of their iPad app, so why not their apps on TiVo as well?


----------



## bradleys

Dave - yeah that is what I am thinking as well. Not sure how it will work, but applying one pass "organization" across disparate streaming services is an option.


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> If you're speaking about me, I wasn't saying that either. The only person that's "bonkers" is Rodgers saying that their version of "Aereo" is the same as the original.


Good grief, that's not what Rodgers said.

This is why having discussions on the internet is pointless.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> One thing I just thought of though. While they may not be creating their own streaming "cable" service, who says they couldn't have come to an agreement with SlingTV and/or PS Vue to offer their apps and versions of said services? Sling is on many devices already and Vue has already stepped away from just Sony platforms with the introduction of their iPad app, so why not their apps on TiVo as well?





bradleys said:


> A simple expansion of the OnePass streaming reference model against all the new steaming services from ABC / NBC / CBS would accomplish the tagging, inventory and delivery of local content.
> 
> If TiVo were to make a deal with these services and act as a consolidator - that would be an interesting model.
> 
> Eventually (later then sooner, I hope) the industry is going to push us away from linear cable / TV that necessitates the copy and save DVR, toward a content on demand model. This will allow them to recapture the control of the advertisement.


These approaches are more in-line w/ a "bolt from the cloud" concept, though I would expect TiVo would need to find a way to record the SlingTV live streams for their hardware to be preferable to the streaming client alternatives.


----------



## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> Good grief, that's not what Rodgers said. This is why having discussions on the internet is pointless.


Good grief, I'm saying that using the "Aereo" name at all in reference to what they're doing is bonkers. He "did" use the Aereo name. THAT is my point.


----------



## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> Hilarious! And hopefully off-target.
> 
> TiVo's only edge is the DVR recording capability; other devices are far ahead in streaming content, even if those other devices haven't yet aggregated the streaming content in the way TiVo has with OnePass. (i.e. If I had to choose between streaming devices, I'd go with the one that has the greater access to streaming content over the one that aggregates a more limited catalog into a merged listing.)


I wouldn't say other devices are FAR ahead of TiVo in streaming, at least if you're leaving out authenticated apps for cable subscribers (e.g. HBO Go, Watch ESPN, FX Now, USA Now, etc.) -- those apps aren't useful for cord-cutters unless you're "borrowing" a cable subscriber's log-in. The biggies that TiVo still needs in the world of OTT streaming (not tied to a cable subscription) are HBO Now, Showtime, Crackle and maybe Sling TV.

I very much value the aggregation that TiVo brings to streaming across multiple apps (plus live/recorded TV), which is why I use Netflix and Hulu on my TiVo rather than switching over to my Apple TV, even though the Hulu app on Apple TV is undeniably better.

I don't think the following is what Bolt Aereo Edition will prove to be but I do think there's a hole in the market for a product like this. Imaging a streaming device aimed at cord-cutters with hardware similar to Amazon Fire (including voice search) that costs something like $75 to $99. Like TiVo Roamio, it supports up to 1080p24/60 video and 5.1 surround sound. The device requires a $15 per month subscription fee to function. For that, you get a base package of Hulu, CBS All Access plus the major free services like Crackle, AOL On, Yahoo Screen, CBSN, YouTube, Vevo, Plex, etc. (I'm assuming the hardware provider will be able to negotiate slightly lower prices with Hulu and CBS, allowing $4 to 5 of the $15 per month to go to the hardware provider.) That base programming package gives you on-demand access to all current-season episodes of every show across the big 4 networks, plus a lot of past season episodes, plus a decent amount of past season and even some current season cable shows, plus a few movies, as well as some new original series. Maybe the first month of service would be free after purchasing the box.

The box also has a single OTA digital tuner. If you choose to plug in an OTA antenna, you get a program guide for your local TV stations. The device does not have a hard drive but there's enough RAM or flash storage to cache 30 minutes of high quality HD video, allowing the user to pause and rewind live TV. The cache would also be used for streaming video, allowing for smooth instant rewind, FF, and jump back/forward features.

There's the option to subscribe to any and all the other major OTT streaming services too: Netflix, Amazon Prime, Showtime, HBO Now, Vudu, etc. If the user purchases a service or rental through the device, the hardware provider should get a cut. A unified User Accounts area in the menu settings lets the user manage all his streaming subscriptions and log-ins in the same place.

It also has something like OnePass but improved, with a great UI for browsing, searching and queuing across all of your available services. While there would be no recording from OTA TV channels, shows could be selected within the program grid for later viewing via Hulu, CBS All Access or another service. Hopefully there would be some degree of UI harmonization among the various streaming apps, so that buttons on the included remote control work the same across all of them.

I think such a product could be profitable. I'm not sure why, for instance, Roku hasn't tried to do it yet. I think it would provide a convenient, unified experience that meets the needs of the vast majority of cord cutters (free live TV + paid on-demand streaming) without driving up the cost with hardware that most don't care that much about any more (multiple tuners and hard drive).

Such a device would come close to replicating the functionality and features of the now-defunct $12-per-month Aereo service. For the extra $3 a month, it would also offer some additional on-demand programming beyond what's currently on the major OTA networks while also integrating content across whatever additional OTT streaming services the user might want.


----------



## jonw747

Well, as long as we're dreaming (and have to pay a subscription), how about rather than relying on a service like Hulu and CBS for network programming, we get the full deal? Live cable channels PLUS on-demand content all streamed to an App that runs on most any streaming device?

You add the services, providers, and content you want, and the App presents it all as if it was one service with unified search and One Pass or similar. 

Not all cable cutters object to paying a subscription, I think a lot of them just despise how their bills have imploded after the initial sign up promotion ends, and would like the option to unbundle the expensive h/w, watch where they want to watch, and pay for what they consume.

Heck, with some industry standards, creating TV Apps that took advantage of this infrastructure would become a neat business.

Let's face it, what we want to watch is sitting on a hard drive out there in the cloud right now. Everything that gets in the way of us just streaming that directly is just an unnecessary obstacle. That includes broadcast towers, antennas, DVRs, STBs, satellite dishes, etc, etc. 

It's all doable, but it comes down to $$$ and a whole lot of industry inertia.

Verizon and Comcast, etc, are reduced to internet service providers in this brave new world. TiVo's wouldn't even have a purpose if something was done about the 3 minute commercial breaks.


----------



## Dan203

jonw747 said:


> Well, as long as we're dreaming (and have to pay a subscription), how about rather than relying on a service like Hulu and CBS for network programming, we get the full deal? Live cable channels PLUS on-demand content all streamed to an App that runs on most any streaming device?
> 
> You add the services, providers, and content you want, and the App presents it all as if it was one service with unified search and One Pass or similar.


Didn't the original founders of TiVo try to do something like this recently and it failed miserably?


----------



## NashGuy

jonw747 said:


> Well, as long as we're dreaming (and have to pay a subscription), how about rather than relying on a service like Hulu and CBS for network programming, we get the full deal? Live cable channels PLUS on-demand content all streamed to an App that runs on most any streaming device?
> 
> You add the services, providers, and content you want, and the App presents it all as if it was one service with unified search and One Pass or similar.
> 
> Not all cable cutters object to paying a subscription, I think a lot of them just despise how their bills have imploded after the initial sign up promotion ends, and would like the option to unbundle the expensive h/w, watch where they want to watch, and pay for what they consume.
> 
> Heck, with some industry standards, creating TV Apps that took advantage of this infrastructure would become a neat business.
> 
> Let's face it, what we want to watch is sitting on a hard drive out there in the cloud right now. Everything that gets in the way of us just streaming that directly is just an unnecessary obstacle. That includes broadcast towers, antennas, DVRs, STBs, satellite dishes, etc, etc.
> 
> It's all doable, but it comes down to $$$ and a whole lot of industry inertia.
> 
> Verizon and Comcast, etc, are reduced to internet service providers in this brave new world. TiVo's wouldn't even have a purpose if something was done about the 3 minute commercial breaks.


I'd say what you're envisioning is much more an unrealistic dream than what I proposed. Not that it's far-fetched technology-wise but we have quite a way to go before the TV industry will ever agree to a la carte streaming channels for everything on cable, with on-demand access to those channels' programming, provided through some neutral third-party app/service available on multiple hardware platforms. (If I understand you correctly.) Maybe that will eventually happen-- I'd love to see it too but I doubt it. As you say, it comes down to money and industry inertia.

The pieces are pretty much already in place for what I'm imagining. It's basically a Roamio OTA without the hard drive and three extra tuners, with a slightly improved UI and a marketing message/user experience that emphasizes streaming over live TV. Granted, the recurring monthly revenue stream would be much smaller than the $15 that TiVo gets now for the Roamio OTA (assuming it was purchased without lifetime service for $49 up-front) but it would be a way to get *something* out of streaming cord-cutters who want something better than the fragmented experience currently available via TV + Roku (or Amazon Fire or Apple TV) but who aren't willing to pay $15 a month just to essentially "rent a box" before they start shelling out for streaming services. The $49 currently charged for the Roamio OTA may not even cover the full cost of the hardware while there would be some amount of profit on the up-front price of my imaginary streaming box.


----------



## dianebrat

Dan203 said:


> Didn't the original founders of TiVo try to do something like this recently and it failed miserably?


https://gigaom.com/2014/02/25/its-official-tivos-co-founders-start-selling-49-qplay-tv-streamer/

I don't recall that it ever fully launched, and I'm correct http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/20/qplay-shutdown/


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## NashGuy

dianebrat said:


> https://gigaom.com/2014/02/25/its-official-tivos-co-founders-start-selling-49-qplay-tv-streamer/
> 
> I don't recall that it ever fully launched, and I'm correct http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/20/qplay-shutdown/


Yeah, I remember reading about Qplay. If they were able to get the big guys like Netflix and Hulu plugged into their service from the get-go it may well have succeeded. Without those pay services, it was just a novel front-end for free web clips.

I will say that lean-back continuity and discoverability -- which Qplay sought to address -- are big features somewhat missing in the world of streaming, although some individual apps/services, including Netflix, AOL On, etc. are taking small steps to address that by becoming a little more like traditional linear TV.

I think it would be cool if TiVo could add some sort of feature -- call it Stream Surfing -- that would stream one clip after another of content from your subscribed services, e.g. Netflix, Amazon Prime, Yahoo Screen, etc. Maybe it would mix together clips (either the first two minutes of shows/movies or previews/promo clips for those shows/movies) for both stuff you already have a OnePass for as well as other stuff it thinks you'll like based on what you've previously watched/thumbed-up/added to OnePass. An on-screen graphic would tell you the name of the show, the service it's from, the rating and the run time, with clickable buttons to "Watch Now," "Create a OnePass," or "Skip". This would be a nice way to sample and discover different shows and decide what you're in the mood to watch right then -- like traditional TV channel surfing, but more personalized. Maybe you could go into an associated menu to restrict clips based on what you're in the mood for at the moment -- TV drama series I've never watched, for instance.


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> Good grief, I'm saying that using the "Aereo" name at all in reference to what they're doing is bonkers. He "did" use the Aereo name. THAT is my point.


They bought the Aereo name. Of course they used it. It wasn't a reference, the TiVo product will be called Aereo.

This is just like when Napster when legit. It wasn't the original Napster, but it was still in the same realm and product category. Don't try to parse what he said so exactly.


----------



## jonw747

NashGuy said:


> I'd say what you're envisioning is much more an unrealistic dream than what I proposed.


No doubt, but in either case, it's hard to get the players involved to agree on anything.

It'll probably take a disruptive technology to break the stranglehold, but alas the early attempts to let content providers cut out the middle men such as YouTube, NetFlix, and Amazon produced shows would just replace one set of proprietary pay walls with another.

Imagine if someone produced a quality show that included product placement in a non-objectionable manner? They could literally give it away for free, because the more views would mean more exposure for the products they're promoting. Torrents could actually be used for what they were originally intended.

Alas, we're subjected to product placements in programming AND commercials.


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## davezatz

HarperVision said:


> Yes it does. If Aereo would've applied for and gotten broadcast licensing and paid the fees then it would've been legal.


After their Supreme Court smackdown, they tried the royalty route... and were denied. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nt-a-cable-company-says-the-copyright-office/



dianebrat said:


> I don't recall that it ever fully launched, and I'm correct http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/20/qplay-shutdown/


Qplay fully launched. And was fully ignored by all of us. But I do give their investors credit for refunding whatever small number of folks made a purchase.


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## HarperVision

JosephB said:


> They bought the Aereo name. Of course they used it. It wasn't a reference, the TiVo product will be called Aereo. This is just like when Napster when legit. It wasn't the original Napster, but it was still in the same realm and product category. Don't try to parse what he said so exactly.


I know.


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## HarperVision

davezatz said:


> After their Supreme Court smackdown, they tried the royalty route... and were denied. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/07/17/no-aereo-isnt-a-cable-company-says-the-copyright-office/


I know they tried and were denied. They shouldn't have been though. It was a vendetta against them to prove something.


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## Dan203

Looks like this may be coming very soon. TiVo is having a fire sale on both the Romaio OTA and Basic. You can get an OTA or refurbished Basic for $300 with lifetime or a new Basic for $400 with lifetime. They're probably trying to get rid of existing inventory before the Bolt arrives. We could be just a week or two away.


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## NashGuy

Per a reader comment I saw over on Zatz's site, it appears that TiVo recently sent out emails to some of their longtime subscribers on older hardware an offer to upgrade to Roamio at special pricing. A new Roamio base model with lifetime service is priced at $400 (same as the current Super Savings Sale at TiVo.com) while the Roamio Plus and Pro with lifetime are offered at $500 and $700, respectively. More evidence of TiVo trying hard to blow out all that remaining Roamio inventory. The email states that the "limited time offer" will end on Aug. 19.

So I'm guessing we won't see TiVo Bolt officially announced until at least Thur. Aug. 20. And given that TiVo has a history of rolling out new hardware in August (before the fall TV season kicks off), I'm betting the latest we'll see Bolt announced is Thur. Sept. 3.


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## thefisch

I know there has been speculation about what the Bolt will replace, but does the blowout on OTA and basic indicate the Bolt will only replace those? Bolt = OTA and plus/pro for cable.

I realize they made offers on the plus/pro to loyalty but hat's not a blowout like this public sale. That pricing seems close to past loyalty offers. If that was public pricing...


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## JosephB

thefisch said:


> I know there has been speculation about what the Bolt will replace, but does the blowout on OTA and basic indicate the Bolt will only replace those? Bolt = OTA and plus/pro for cable.
> 
> I realize they made offers on the plus/pro to loyalty but hat's not a blowout like this public sale. That pricing seems close to past loyalty offers. If that was public pricing...


The Bolt is likely replacing the entire Roamio line, with a "Aereo" model replacing the OTA.


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## NashGuy

I see what you mean. But, given that TiVo recently certified two new digital cable models with CableLabs, plus the graphic that was recently revealed from TiVo's staging website, it would appear that there will be three Bolt models: one that's OTA-only ( Bolt Aereo Edition) and two others that will be either cable-only or cable/OTA. I don't see how TiVo will continue to sell Roamio Plus and Pro alongside two cable model Bolts. As for the current close out sales, maybe TiVo had far fewer Roamio Plus and Pro units on hand, so they didn't need to have a public sale to clear them out.


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## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> I see what you mean. But, given that TiVo recently certified two new digital cable models with CableLabs, plus the graphic that was recently revealed from TiVo's staging website, it would appear that there will be three Bolt models: one that's OTA-only ( Bolt Aereo Edition) and two others that will be either cable-only or cable/OTA. I don't see how TiVo will continue to sell Roamio Plus and Pro alongside two cable model Bolts. As for the current close out sales, maybe TiVo had far fewer Roamio Plus and Pro units on hand, so they didn't need to have a public sale to clear them out.


The Plus/Pro is also almost identical to the T6 model that they distribute through their MSO partners. So they could probably repurpose any unsold Plus/Pro for that. I could also see them continue on with the Plus/Pro/T6 for the MSOs if they don't want to switch to the new Bolt formfactor.


----------



## JosephB

NashGuy said:


> I see what you mean. But, given that TiVo recently certified two new digital cable models with CableLabs, plus the graphic that was recently revealed from TiVo's staging website, it would appear that there will be three Bolt models: one that's OTA-only ( Bolt Aereo Edition) and two others that will be either cable-only or cable/OTA. I don't see how TiVo will continue to sell Roamio Plus and Pro alongside two cable model Bolts. As for the current close out sales, maybe TiVo had far fewer Roamio Plus and Pro units on hand, so they didn't need to have a public sale to clear them out.


The implication is that the Roamios are going away completely. We don't necessarily know how many of each model they have remaining, or if the promotional emails were even related to the upcoming refresh. They could still clear out old stock as refurbs and "blowouts" after the Bolt is released, too. The Premieres were available for a while even after the Roamios were released.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> The Plus/Pro is also almost identical to the T6 model that they distribute through their MSO partners. So they could probably repurpose any unsold Plus/Pro for that. I could also see them continue on with the Plus/Pro/T6 for the MSOs if they don't want to switch to the new Bolt formfactor.


Some of the MSOs are still using the Premiere units, so I'm betting the T6 will be in service for quite some time.


----------



## NashGuy

JosephB said:


> The implication is that the Roamios are going away completely. We don't necessarily know how many of each model they have remaining, or if the promotional emails were even related to the upcoming refresh. They could still clear out old stock as refurbs and "blowouts" after the Bolt is released, too. The Premieres were available for a while even after the Roamios were released.


Yep, all true. My point is that, contrary to what some are speculating (that the current-generation line-up will soon be Bolt on the low end and Roamio Plus/Pro on the high end), I tend to think that the current-gen retail line-up will soon be completely Bolt. Leftover Roamios may still be sold at a discount for awhile but they will not be prominently featured on TiVo.com or in their marketing efforts. I may be wrong but I think it would be really odd to have their platform divided between two brand names, Bolt and Roamio.


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## abovethesink

If these are hypothetically supporting 4k, what sort of cord will feed the TV? Standard HDMI cords can't do 4k. I somewhat early adopted 4k with a Samsung UN55HU6950. What port do I have that could connect to a 4k set top box?


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## tarheelblue32

abovethesink said:


> If these are hypothetically supporting 4k, what sort of cord will feed the TV? Standard HDMI cords can't do 4k. I somewhat early adopted 4k with a Samsung UN55HU6950. What port do I have that could connect to a 4k set top box?


HDMI 1.4 will technically do 4k @ 30fps, but you have to go to HDMI 2.0 to handle 4k @ 60fps. There is also the issue of whether or not your decives support the right version of HDCP to allow 4k resolutions.


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## Dan203

They also need the ability to decode H.265. I seriously doubt the Bolt will be 4K compatible. If they release a 4K TiVo it will likely be a separate product with a higher price tag.


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## series5orpremier

I don't think any differences will be too noticeable (slightly faster processor?) other than perhaps integrated Stream on the low end and maybe hard drive size.


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## Dan203

I think we may see the separation of OTA and cable. No more "basic" model. There will be cable only and OTA only "Aereo Edition". 

Also think we'll see Stream and MoCa across all models.


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> I think we may see the separation of OTA and cable. No more "basic" model. There will be cable only and OTA only "Aereo Edition".
> 
> Also think we'll see Stream and MoCa across all models.


Yep, I think that's a likely scenario too. If that comes to pass, it makes the current $300 lifetime deal on the refurb Roamio -- with cable/OTA flexibility -- look even better.


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## abovethesink

Yeah, I am not speculating that this will be 4k, just wondering what port usage that would entail when inevitably it does happen at a later date.


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## JosephB

abovethesink said:


> Yeah, I am not speculating that this will be 4k, just wondering what port usage that would entail when inevitably it does happen at a later date.


It will physically be HDMI. Electrically it will be either HDMI 1.4 or 2.0 or some other spec, but it will use the HDMI connector.


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## thefisch

NashGuy said:


> I see what you mean. But, given that TiVo recently certified two new digital cable models with CableLabs, plus the graphic that was recently revealed from TiVo's staging website, it would appear that there will be three Bolt models: one that's OTA-only ( Bolt Aereo Edition) and two others that will be either cable-only or cable/OTA. I don't see how TiVo will continue to sell Roamio Plus and Pro alongside two cable model Bolts. As for the current close out sales, maybe TiVo had far fewer Roamio Plus and Pro units on hand, so they didn't need to have a public sale to clear them out.


Wouldn't it be early for TiVo to replace the entire roamio line since it is only 2 years old. Based on these past announcements, it seems they wait 3.5 years in between new platforms (hd, premiere, roamio) with 2-2.5 years intervals on enhancements to hardware (hd xl, premiere 4 tuner).

roamio on 8/20/13
mini on 3/11/13
premiere 4 tuner on 8/16/12
premiere on 3/3/10
hd xl on 9/4/08
hd on 9/12/06

If there was some current content available that the roamio line didn't accommodate like 4K, but it does it all. Cable cards are still limited to 6 tuners. Perhaps the Bolts will be supercharged roamios with same functionality but with more processing speed, memory or something. Kind of like when Apple comes out with the Iphone 5S after the Iphone 5.


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## tarheelblue32

thefisch said:


> Cable cards are still limited to 6 tuners.


Actually, there are CableCards that will support 8 tuners.


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## NashGuy

thefisch said:


> Wouldn't it be early for TiVo to replace the entire roamio line since it is only 2 years old. Based on these past announcements, it seems they wait 3.5 years in between new platforms (hd, premiere, roamio) with 2-2.5 years intervals on enhancements to hardware (hd xl, premiere 4 tuner).
> 
> roamio on 8/20/13
> mini on 3/11/13
> premiere 4 tuner on 8/16/12
> premiere on 3/3/10
> hd xl on 9/4/08
> hd on 9/12/06
> 
> If there was some current content available that the roamio line didn't accommodate like 4K, but it does it all. Cable cards are still limited to 6 tuners. Perhaps the Bolts will be supercharged roamios with same functionality but with more processing speed, memory or something. Kind of like when Apple comes out with the Iphone 5S after the Iphone 5.


Folks in the know seem to think that what you're suggesting is right on target: Bolt will merely be an enhanced Roamio. It will still be TiVo Series 5. So yes, like going from iPhone 5 to 5S, not 6. I imagine using a whole new name, however, gets them a bit more marketing mileage than going with "Roamio 2" or "Roamio XL".


----------



## Jed1

thefisch said:


> Wouldn't it be early for TiVo to replace the entire roamio line since it is only 2 years old. Based on these past announcements, it seems they wait 3.5 years in between new platforms (hd, premiere, roamio) with 2-2.5 years intervals on enhancements to hardware (hd xl, premiere 4 tuner).
> 
> roamio on 8/20/13
> mini on 3/11/13
> premiere 4 tuner on 8/16/12
> premiere on 3/3/10
> hd xl on 9/4/08
> hd on 9/12/06
> 
> If there was some current content available that the roamio line didn't accommodate like 4K, but it does it all. Cable cards are still limited to 6 tuners. Perhaps the Bolts will be supercharged roamios with same functionality but with more processing speed, memory or something. Kind of like when Apple comes out with the Iphone 5S after the Iphone 5.


TiVo's past is no indication of it future. The legacy TV landscape is changing pretty fast so TiVo will probably start releasing new models every year or two just like the rest of the CE industry does.
I am starting to think that buying lifetime service going forward is going to be a losing deal because it takes about five and a half years to fully amortize the cost of lifetime.
That is now an eternity in the CE business.
I was just told today that TiVo will not move lifetime service from one series to another. So if they are going to release new models every year it will be foolish to purchase lifetime service.

Another thing about the Bolts color is if Pace is making the units for TiVo it will make sense if the consumer units are white and the MSO units are black since Arris now owns Pace.
Arris makes all their consumer products white and MSO products black so cable techs can easily determine what is theirs and what belongs to the customer.


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## thefisch

Coming out with new models every 6 months to a year is survival in the ultra competitive product spaces as the media and public react to the latest with the newest features. So I could see TiVo wanting to advance their schedule to a certain extent to boost media interest or earning reports. But I don't see their competitive motivation at the mass market level. Who are they competing with actually? They are well ahead of any cable company offering in my area. Other DVR related products are more geared towards hobbyists and the tech savvy than the mainstream. IMO I think their issue is market penetration - how to they get more people to think of them instead of their cable DVR. Cord cutters are more likely to depend on streaming as their 'time shift' device. How TiVo can appeal to that growing demo will be interesting to watch.

I could see them wanting to move into the streaming space more but given the low price point of those devices who would want to go there. They don't own or provide any streaming content. The monthly sub space for streaming is only for those who already have existing deals for content or major players who want a piece of that growing market. TiVo has neither.

And I agree with the comments about lifetime. TiVo would obviously benefit from every user being monthly. Then there would be less incentive to hang onto legacy products. Like a cell phone, you pay for the monthly service and every few years you get a new phone because of what it can do compared to your old one. Sure some keep old phones for years and others get a new one each new product cycle. For me, buying lifetime was a cost play. I paid $350 PLS on my plus and just got a basic with $250 PLS so my breakeven is just less than two years compared to monthly. If I decide to get new hardware in two years, then it is at least a wash and likely much better due to resale.


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## Dan203

Apple replaces all their hardware once a year. A two year cycle isn't that bad. Especially if they maintain hardware compatibility so they don't have to branch the software every cycle.


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## pfiagra

I think speculations about future TiVo offerings may be close to the top, if not the #1 thread topic I enjoy reading about on the TCF boards.

Definitely beats reading the complaint threads.


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## thefisch

Dan203 said:


> Apple replaces all their hardware once a year. A two year cycle isn't that bad. Especially if they maintain hardware compatibility so they don't have to branch the software every cycle.


That's true of the products the drive the majority of sales for Apple. But they have to or the public will lose interest and the stock price would fall. Their existing customers would look elsewhere and they wouldn't gain new customers lured by the new features. And that's not considering they control their product ecosystem and they have a captive audience for the most part. But people expect innovation from Apple. And that captivity helps them sell millions of units to recover the heavy R&D costs for each annual launch. They can afford a 'miss' every now and then.

TiVo doesn't have those advantages. They created a product that was ahead of its time but they had to rely on secondary relationship customers who have to have a primary relationship with the content provider, Mr. Cable Co. (or sat in the earlier days). Those content providers caught on to the opportunity TiVo and others created and offered their own products that their primary customers are gobbling up since they don't know they may have an alternate choice.

Maybe my situation is unique - I have had DVR's since 2002 (TiVo, ReplayTV, HTPC and now TiVo again). I am by no means an expert on DVR's, but everyone I know that has a DVR now got it from their content provider. For years I told them about the advantages and they couldn't comprehend until their cable company sent them a flyer. How TiVo can appeal to that group - I have no idea.


----------



## HarperVision

HarperVision said:


> I read something today in USAToday talking about an AT&T and DirecTV special and it mentioned that as soon as you sign up for the bundle in the AT&T store you can start getting DirecTV channels on your mobile and tablet to use while you await your satellite install.
> 
> This makes me think there is already maybe a DirecTV type OTT service ready go, so maybe there's something to this "AT&T Broadband" thing and using their OTT service on these new Bolts? I know the server is just a placeholder as has been mentioned, but it shows they've worked together before, and so has DirecTV and TiVo, so it's not far fetched to think maybe they struck some sort of deal during CES or another trade show to create something like this.
> 
> Think about it. It would potentially extend "U-Verse" type programming to anyone having broadband IP access and also to all those people not able to or want a satellite DSS setup for DirecTV. It would also make it easy to get a VERY large audience for NFL Sunday Ticket too, and the timing is perfect, right as training camps begin!


Hmmmmm.........seems my crystal ball may have shown us something after all! 



> AT&T to stop investing in U-verse CPE, will move to new in-home architecture using DirecTV system
> 
> "AT&T said it plans to stop investing in its U-verse CPE platform and will instead use a "derivative" of DirecTV's in-home equipment to create a new, in-home TV product that the company said will display content from AT&T and others. The company also said users would be able to access the same content while outside the home.
> During the carrier's analyst day today, AT&T executive John Stankey said that the carrier is moving to "one consistent architecture" that is a "derivative of the DirecTV in-home architecture." He said the company will begin selling the platform across all its channels by the beginning of next year. He said the platform will include "very thin hardware profiles," *likely indicating a cloud-based approach to a set-top box.*
> 
> "As this platform matures, you'll see an integration of mobile, social and entertainment capabilities with a best in class approach to user interface development," Stankey said. *"The evolution of our customer experience will bring legacy U-verse and DirecTV customers to a new and common customer experience with personalization features, user controls, and the ability to manage managed and unmanaged content."............:*


Full story here:

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/at.../2015-08-12?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal


----------



## bradleys

I am "wondering" if this might just be an S5 "Update" for the Base / OTA Roamio. The recent sale was specific for those two models and they are both missing stream integration which I think is going to be integral for some of the cloud strategies.

I have been too busy to follow this very closely - what do you think from what has been announced / leaked?


----------



## slowbiscuit

Jed1 said:


> I am starting to think that buying lifetime service going forward is going to be a losing deal because it takes about five and a half years to fully amortize the cost of lifetime.
> That is now an eternity in the CE business.
> I was just told today that TiVo will not move lifetime service from one series to another. So if they are going to release new models every year it will be foolish to purchase lifetime service.


And you would be completely wrong in that assessment because it's nowhere near 5 1/2 years to amortize lifetime (vs., say renting a DVR or paying for a monthly $15 Tivo sub). It's less than a 2 year payback here on Comcast, frex. Not to mention that you'll get back almost all, if not all, of your sub cost when upgrading should you decide to resell the box.

This has nothing to do with how often Tivo releases boxes, btw, assuming you don't always jump on the early adopter bandwagon.


----------



## Dan203

bradleys said:


> I am "wondering" if this might just be an S5 "Update" for the Base / OTA Roamio. The recent sale was specific for those two models and they are both missing stream integration which I think is going to be integral for some of the cloud strategies.
> 
> I have been too busy to follow this very closely - what do you think from what has been announced / leaked?


As was mentioned above two models were submitted to CableLabs for approval, so it can't just be a replacement for the Basic and the OTA because both would need to have CableCARD slots to need to be submitted to CableLabs.

Plus why would TiVo want to have two product lines with different names?


----------



## series5orpremier

I'll bet the Bolt Pro gets a 4TB+ hard drive so that it can't be replicated easily by just dropping a blank hard drive into a Bolt Plus. Makes sense that the primary purpose of the new cable models would be to protect their premium pricing structure.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> As was mentioned above two models were submitted to CableLabs for approval, so it can't just be a replacement for the Basic and the OTA because both would need to have CableCARD slots to need to be submitted to CableLabs.
> 
> Plus why would TiVo want to have two product lines with different names?


Agreed. Since the Roamio Plus/Pro is identical to the MSO T6 then they will use the leftover units as replacements for broken MSO and consumer units like they do with the Premiere 4/Premiere Q.
Since the Roamio OTA/Basic is not used at any MSO they will want to eliminate that inventory before they release the new models.

If these new consumer units are white and the MSO units are black then I believe TiVo will keep a limited supply of consumer units on hand and you will no longer see the steep discounts that we have seen in the past.
This will be bad news for the consumer if you have lifetime on the box since TiVo will not transfer service from one platform to another. If the unit fails and there is no replacements left, the consumer is out the remainder of the money he/she spent for lifetime as you will have to upgrade to a newer platform.


----------



## Dan203

series5orpremier said:


> I'll bet the Bolt Pro gets a 4TB+ hard drive so that it can't be replicated easily by just dropping a blank hard drive into a Bolt Plus. Makes sense that the primary purpose of the new cable models would be to protect their premium pricing structure.


Until the Roamio line you couldn't just drop a drive into the TiVo and have it work. They added that feature on purpose so I doubt they feel the need to protect against people using it.


----------



## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> This will be bad news for the consumer if you have lifetime on the box since TiVo will not transfer service from one platform to another. If the unit fails and there is no replacements left, the consumer is out the remainder of the money he/she spent for lifetime as you will have to upgrade to a newer platform.


If the unit is still under warranty they will replace it with something. If it's not under warranty then you'd be SOL anyway since lifetime is tied to the box, not the user.


----------



## aaronwt

thefisch said:


> Wouldn't it be early for TiVo to replace the entire roamio line since it is only 2 years old. Based on these past announcements, it seems they wait 3.5 years in between new platforms (hd, premiere, roamio) with 2-2.5 years intervals on enhancements to hardware (hd xl, premiere 4 tuner).
> 
> roamio on 8/20/13
> mini on 3/11/13
> premiere 4 tuner on 8/16/12
> premiere on 3/3/10
> hd xl on 9/4/08
> hd on 9/12/06
> 
> If there was some current content available that the roamio line didn't accommodate like 4K, but it does it all. Cable cards are still limited to 6 tuners. Perhaps the Bolts will be supercharged roamios with same functionality but with more processing speed, memory or something. Kind of like when Apple comes out with the Iphone 5S after the Iphone 5.


The Series 3 OLED came out in 2006 and the Series 3 TiVo HD came out in 2007.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> If the unit is still under warranty they will replace it with something. If it's not under warranty then you'd be SOL anyway since lifetime is tied to the box, not the user.


Actually no Dan I am facing this problem right now. I was told yesterday that in no way shape or form TiVo will move lifetime service from one platform to another. The lifetime service stays tied to that platform. 
If I had monthly service then they would upgrade me from the Premiere to the Roamio since there is no lifetime service.


----------



## Dan203

What exactly are you trying to do? Was your unit replaced under warranty with a different series? The key words there are "under warranty". The default TiVo warranty is only 90 days, so unless you have an extended warranty it's unlikely that situation would ever occur. If you do have an extended warranty then TiVo will transfer the lifetime to the replacement unit as long as you can prove it was replaced under warranty. If it's their extended warranty then they will most likely replace it with a refurb of the same unit, so the only way I could see this happening is if you had an extended warranty through a 3rd party.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> The Series 3 OLED came out in 2006 and the Series 3 TiVo HD came out in 2007.


The original S3 was really expensive. Like $800 IIRC. They quickly worked on the HD because they wanted an HDTV capable unit with a more reasonable price. IIRC the HD was only $250, so the price drop was huge even though the internal hardware was mostly identical.


----------



## JosephB

Dan203 said:


> What exactly are you trying to do? Was your unit replaced under warranty with a different series? The key words there are "under warranty". The default TiVo warranty is only 90 days, so unless you have an extended warranty it's unlikely that situation would ever occur. If you do have an extended warranty then TiVo will transfer the lifetime to the replacement unit as long as you can prove it was replaced under warranty. If it's their extended warranty then they will most likely replace it with a refurb of the same unit, so the only way I could see this happening is if you had an extended warranty through a 3rd party.


And if you bought a third party warranty without checking to see if it would cover lifetime service, well, eventually the customer has a responsibility to know what they're buying...

TiVo hasn't been in the business of transferring lifetime subscriptions in a long time.


----------



## thefisch

Dan203 said:


> Plus why would TiVo want to have two product lines with different names?


Only reason for different names is to market the products to different groups while avoiding brand confusion. Perhaps one product is directed at OTA/cord cutters that appeals to their sensibilities and helps those on the fence to cut the cord with some confidence. The second product would be for cable customers as a better alternative to their content provider DVR.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> What exactly are you trying to do? Was your unit replaced under warranty with a different series? The key words there are "under warranty". The default TiVo warranty is only 90 days, so unless you have an extended warranty it's unlikely that situation would ever occur. If you do have an extended warranty then TiVo will transfer the lifetime to the replacement unit as long as you can prove it was replaced under warranty. If it's their extended warranty then they will most likely replace it with a refurb of the same unit, so the only way I could see this happening is if you had an extended warranty through a 3rd party.


Actually I am not sure what is going on as I was on the phone with them for almost three hours yesterday.
I had the two Premieres replaced recently because I had TiVo's three year warranty. With these two refurbished Premiere replacement units they now said they will replace them until I get two that does not have the back screen issue.
But the key thing they keep saying that they absolutely will not move lifetime service from one platform to another.
If I refuse then I am stuck with these two units since there is no fix for the black screen issue. If I accept I guess I aimlessly keep exchanging the units until I get two that does not have the black screen issue.


----------



## NashGuy

thefisch said:


> Only reason for different names is to market the products to different groups while avoiding brand confusion. Perhaps one product is directed at OTA/cord cutters that appeals to their sensibilities and helps those on the fence to cut the cord with some confidence. The second product would be for cable customers as a better alternative to their content provider DVR.


Have a look at the original article over at Zatz Not Funny about the initial leak of info about Bolt from TiVo's website. Specifically, look at the images taken from the leaked page:

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-08/tivo-bolt-to-replace-roamio/

It looks like a pop-up/roll-over banner that springs out of the "Shop" menu and suggests that TiVo's retail hardware offerings will consist of four main items: TiVo BOLT, TiVo BOLT Aereo Edition, TiVo Mini, and Slide Pro Remote.

Since there were recently two TiVo devices submitted for CableLabs certification, best guess is that the first item on the Shop menu, TiVo BOLT, will be for use with cable and will come in two variants, akin to the Roamio Plus and Pro. Because the second item is labeled "Aereo Edition," it will obviously be the OTA model (unless we're all radically off base and it will instead come with some sort of new skinny OTT streaming service that doesn't require an OTA antenna, but no one is really expecting that).


----------



## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> Actually I am not sure what is going on as I was on the phone with them for almost three hours yesterday.
> I had the two Premieres replaced recently because I had TiVo's three year warranty. With these two refurbished Premiere replacement units they now said they will replace them until I get two that does not have the back screen issue.
> But the key thing they keep saying that they absolutely will not move lifetime service from one platform to another.
> If I refuse then I am stuck with these two units since there is no fix for the black screen issue. If I accept I guess I aimlessly keep exchanging the units until I get two that does not have the black screen issue.


Not sure what the black screen issue is, but if they're replacing the units under warranty then you have to take what they give you. They wont allow you to buy a newer unit and move the lifetime over. They will only move lifetime to the unit that was given to you as a replacement, which in this case sounds like it has the same issue as the original unit. (perhaps it's a software problem and not a hardware problem?)


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Not sure what the black screen issue is, but if they're replacing the units under warranty then you have to take what they give you. They wont allow you to buy a newer unit and move the lifetime over. They will only move lifetime to the unit that was given to you as a replacement, which in this case sounds like it has the same issue as the original unit. (perhaps it's a software problem and not a hardware problem?)


Just one more reason why you should never buy a warranty on consumer electronics. Just save all the money you would have paid on warranties over the years and you'll come out ahead. And if anything ever does break, you can just buy a new one with all the money you have saved rather than dealing with the hassle of collecting on a warranty. American corporations have made a fortune over the years off of American consumers' inability to do math.


----------



## thefisch

NashGuy said:


> Have a look at the original article over at Zatz Not Funny about the initial leak of info about Bolt from TiVo's website. Specifically, look at the images taken from the leaked page:
> 
> http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-08/tivo-bolt-to-replace-roamio/
> 
> It looks like a pop-up/roll-over banner that springs out of the "Shop" menu and suggests that TiVo's retail hardware offerings will consist of four main items: TiVo BOLT, TiVo BOLT Aereo Edition, TiVo Mini, and Slide Pro Remote.
> 
> Since there were recently two TiVo devices submitted for CableLabs certification, best guess is that the first item on the Shop menu, TiVo BOLT, will be for use with cable and will come in two variants, akin to the Roamio Plus and Pro. Because the second item is labeled "Aereo Edition," it will obviously be the OTA model (unless we're all radically off base and it will instead come with some sort of new skinny OTT streaming service that doesn't require an OTA antenna, but no one is really expecting that).


Thanks for sharing the links. The pictures of the website show a logical progression like you said - from Bolt to Bolt Aereo Edition. I understand that the Mini is next but why is the slide remote 4th? Unless that is the most logical addition to your equipment to enhance searching on your unified devices.

What's interesting is the article on the cablelabs certification indicates the numbering is part of the roamio family. Does that mean the Bolt replacement of the roamio pro/plus is a rebrand rather than a new series? The Bolt Pro/Plus will just get a new name and look but keep similar hardware. The Bolt Aereo gains functionality like the pro/plus (stream, moca, etc.) except for OTA.

That would explain the fire sale on the roamio basic/OTA since the Bolt Aereo adds functionality so those should be discounted - both new units and refurbs.

Meanwhile, the pro/plus can be recycled into the new rebranded Bolts with a new case. So don't fire sale those new units as they have future value.


----------



## foghorn2

So glad I only did one year prepay on one and month to month on the other with the 2nd box discount. 

I wont be stuck with lifetime on prevoius gen DVR.


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## Dan203

foghorn2 said:


> So glad I only did one year prepay on one and month to month on the other with the 2nd box discount.
> 
> I wont be stuck with lifetime on prevoius gen DVR.


You still would have been better off with lifetime. Lifetime TiVos typically have a resale value at or near the current price of lifetime. Units without lifetime have little to no resale value at all. So you could have recouped most/all of your lifetime fee whereas your monthly/yearly fee was just a dead expense.


----------



## tarheelblue32

foghorn2 said:


> So glad I only did one year prepay on one and month to month on the other with the 2nd box discount.
> 
> I wont be stuck with lifetime on prevoius gen DVR.





Dan203 said:


> You still would have been better off with lifetime. Lifetime TiVos typically have a resale value at or near the current price of lifetime. Units without lifetime have little to no resale value at all. So you could have recouped most/all of your lifetime fee whereas your monthly/yearly fee was just a dead expense.


Indeed. See my post #216 above about "American consumers' inability to do math".


----------



## thefisch

foghorn2 said:


> So glad I only did one year prepay on one and month to month on the other with the 2nd box discount.
> 
> I wont be stuck with lifetime on prevoius gen DVR.


No one is stuck with lifetime if they can sell the box later.

To me lifetime is a cost play. Not unlike other rent/lease versus buy decisions. (Purchase Cost - Sales Proceeds)/Months of Use. If that comes out under $15 per month or $150 a year then I win.

Until recently I had a few DVR's running that were 13 years old with lifetime. Other than replacing hard drives in each one only once during those 13 years, I had no other costs. I broke even on monthly within three years on each of those. Rest is all gravy. That proved to me that I don't need to get a new DVR when they come out every 3-4 years. Definitely not every two years. The story may be different for others if they need the new DVR and choose to upgrade sooner.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> Not sure what the black screen issue is, but if they're replacing the units under warranty then you have to take what they give you. They wont allow you to buy a newer unit and move the lifetime over. They will only move lifetime to the unit that was given to you as a replacement, which in this case sounds like it has the same issue as the original unit. (perhaps it's a software problem and not a hardware problem?)


The black screen issue is when the unit will not play any MPEG video from Live TV, recordings on the box or streaming them from another box, or video from any of the streaming sources.
The MPEG decoder on the box just freezes up and will not work until you reboot the box.
There is no set pattern to this as it could happen daily, weekly, monthly. The longest I went is three months.

TiVo first said it was hardware then said it was software, which 20.5.2 was supposed to fix, and now I am told it is environmental which translates into something in the home or the cable company is causing the issue.

Your description of the exchange is correct. The only twist is they agreed to keep exchanging boxes until I get two that don't do this.
I guess if TiVo admits that there is a hardware issue then they would have to replace all the Premieres with new boxes so they are willing to spend more money shipping boxes back and forth from Texas to Pennsylvania and I hope I give up.
Which I am think I am going to do. I really wouldn't care about this but I foolishly bought lifetime service on these boxes and it will take until the spring of 2019 to get my money back on the service charge.

I did learn something new yesterday is TiVo support no longer can look at the logs on our TiVo's. The CSR said they lost that ability in the spring of this year.


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## abovethesink

That logic just makes my head hurt.


----------



## NashGuy

thefisch said:


> I understand that the Mini is next but why is the slide remote 4th?


I guess there was room horizontally in the pop-up menu to put a fourth product and my guess is that the Slide Pro Remote (along with the Mini) will be the only accessory worth mentioning that will be sold for use with the Bolt. Stream and MoCa adapters may still be sold for use with previous-gen hardware but they won't be featured products anymore since Bolt will have those capabilities built-in.


----------



## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> The black screen issue is when the unit will not play any MPEG video from Live TV, recordings on the box or streaming them from another box, or video from any of the streaming sources.
> The MPEG decoder on the box just freezes up and will not work until you reboot the box.
> There is no set pattern to this as it could happen daily, weekly, monthly. The longest I went is three months.
> 
> TiVo first said it was hardware then said it was software, which 20.5.2 was supposed to fix, and now I am told it is environmental which translates into something in the home or the cable company is causing the issue.
> 
> Your description of the exchange is correct. The only twist is they agreed to keep exchanging boxes until I get two that don't do this.
> I guess if TiVo admits that there is a hardware issue then they would have to replace all the Premieres with new boxes so they are willing to spend more money shipping boxes back and forth from Texas to Pennsylvania and I hope I give up.
> Which I am think I am going to do. I really wouldn't care about this but I foolishly bought lifetime service on these boxes and it will take until the spring of 2019 to get my money back on the service charge.
> 
> I did learn something new yesterday is TiVo support no longer can look at the logs on our TiVo's. The CSR said they lost that ability in the spring of this year.


I had 3 TiVo Premiere's for many years and have never had this issue. I gave those 3 to my family and if they were having the issue I would have heard about it by now. (I'm family tech support) So I think I'm with TiVo in thinking this might be environmental and/or situational. When it happens you can still browse the menus you just can't play any recordings or live TV? Have you ever tried that remote sequence that reboots the HDUI? Or have you tried switching over to the SDUI when this happens? Does that make any difference? Have you tried changing the output resolutions in the Video settings? Maybe outputting a specific resolution is causing an issue?


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> I had 3 TiVo Premiere's for many years and have never had this issue. I gave those 3 to my family and if they were having the issue I would have heard about it by now. (I'm family tech support) So I think I'm with TiVo in thinking this might be environmental and/or situational. When it happens you can still browse the menus you just can't play any recordings or live TV? Have you ever tried that remote sequence that reboots the HDUI? Or have you tried switching over to the SDUI when this happens? Does that make any difference? Have you tried changing the output resolutions in the Video settings? Maybe outputting a specific resolution is causing an issue?


Yes to all your suggestions and then a lot of other things on top of that. You can navigate the menus on the TiVo, navigate and use the Opera app store, navigate the menus of Amazon Prime, Vudu, and Netflix. You can not play any video from any source. You can be watching live TV, a recording, or a streaming service when the issue happens. This was also happening before the streaming services were added. I have been experiencing this issue since the late spring/early summer of last year.

I have been working with TiVo since last December with this issue. There is also Roamio owners that have this issue. That is the reason why I will not get a Base Roamio at the fire sale price as this platform also has the problem.
I did ask them to front me a Roamio for a couple of months to see if I have the issue with the series 5 platform. They refused but said I can buy a Roamio and use it for thirty days and send it back if that has the issue also.

I am waiting to see if the Bolt will have these issues. If I decide to get another TiVo I will wait until the holidays to see what issues the Bolt has then I will decide if I will upgrade and stay with TiVo. If I decide to try a Bolt I will not get lifetime but try the service for one year.
I am also wondering if the Premiere will get end of life status once the Bolt is out.


----------



## Dan203

I'm actually surprised the Premiere hasn't already hit EOL. But I guess because they have MSO partners using it still they are keeping it current.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> I'm actually surprised the Premiere hasn't already hit EOL. But I guess because they have MSO partners using it still they are keeping it current.


I remember being told in the winter that TiVo will support the current series and the previous series and then drop support for the older series as each new series is introduced.
I agree with you that the MSO's are keeping the series 4 line alive yet. Also the Haxe update also helped a lot because the two platforms share the same software.
When I look at my other Premiere in the My Shows menu it is called the TiVo Premiere Q which is what the MSO series 4 is called.
I wonder if the Premieres will still get some updates once the Bolt I out because of Haxe.

I was also told by an outside source that TiVo had no intentions of adding Prime and Vudu to the Premieres but changed their mind when they got some very vocal blow back from some Premiere owners.

So the old squeaky wheel gets greased does still work, even with TiVo.


----------



## mattack

Dan203 said:


> They added that feature on purpose so I doubt they feel the need to protect against people using it.


But did they add it on purpose *for the end user*? I sure don't think so.. I think it makes them easier to make in the factory.


----------



## JosephB

mattack said:


> But did they add it on purpose *for the end user*? I sure don't think so.. I think it makes them easier to make in the factory.


I think you drastically misunderstand how these devices are built if you think that the way they provisioned drives before was in any way a hindrance.


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## series5orpremier

But they may be getting too much credit if it's assumed the easy upgrading was originally a thoroughly vetted executive decision that all of their departments agreed with or continue to agree with.


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## foghorn2

I know math. I still win out over paying sat or cable box rental fees. I'm not the type that sells stuff on Ebay and I like having the latest equipment. I just donate old stuff and tax write it off.

I'll probably get 1 bolt right away and retire one of the Roams as spare parts for the other one.


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## Dan203

The easy to add/upgrade drive feature was likely added for their MSO partners. Makes the hardware support a lot easier if they can just drop in a new drive if the old one fails and extends the life of the device.


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## lessd

foghorn2 said:


> I know math. I still win out over paying sat or cable box rental fees. I'm not the type that sells stuff on Ebay and I like having the latest equipment. I just donate old stuff and tax write it off.
> 
> I'll probably get 1 bolt right away and retire one of the Roams as spare parts for the other one.


The Roamio Plus, the Minis, and MoCA connection is all that I need now, my frustrated level is the lowest it has ever been with a TiVo product, the UI is fast and my family now knows how to use the One Pass, a new unit from TiVo would have to provide me something that I can't now think of that I would want, but I could always be surprised I guess. As of now I plan to keep my Roamio (all lifetime) setup for the foreseeable future.


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> The Roamio Plus, the Minis, and MoCA connection is all that I need now, my frustrated level is the lowest it has ever been with a TiVo product, the UI is fast and my family now knows how to use the One Pass, a new unit from TiVo would have to provide me something that I can't now think of that I would want, but I could always be surprised I guess. As of now I plan to keep my Roamio (all lifetime) setup for the foreseeable future.


I am with you - until I have to buy a new TV which I assume by that time will be 4K/UHD by default my Roamio does everything I want it to do very well.

That said I certainly have a list of things I would like when I do go to 4K/UHD including an all in one DVR/Media Center that has a built in 4K blu-ray player and offers all the 4K/UHD download services that exist at that time.


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## krkaufman

atmuscarella said:


> That said I certainly have a list of things I would like when I do go to 4K/UHD including an all in one DVR/Media Center that has a built in 4K blu-ray player and offers all the 4K/UHD download services that exist at that time.


... that can play Pong.


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## jmpage2

atmuscarella said:


> I am with you - until I have to buy a new TV which I assume by that time will be 4K/UHD by default my Roamio does everything I want it to do very well.
> 
> That said I certainly have a list of things I would like when I do go to 4K/UHD including an all in one DVR/Media Center that has a built in 4K blu-ray player and offers all the 4K/UHD download services that exist at that time.


Optical discs are dead*. No way is TiVo putting a flaky, prone-to-failure, optical disc drive in a TiVo box.

*full disclosure. I am a huge fan of blu-ray and buy all of my must-have stuff on blu-ray so that I own a physical copy, but I am also a realist and optical media is on its way into VHS status.


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## atmuscarella

jmpage2 said:


> Optical discs are dead*. No way is TiVo putting a flaky, prone-to-failure, optical disc drive in a TiVo box.
> 
> *full disclosure. I am a huge fan of blu-ray and buy all of my must-have stuff on blu-ray so that I own a physical copy, but I am also a realist and optical media is on its way into VHS status.


I have no real belief that TiVo would actually build a DVR with an 4K blu-ray player built in but that doesn't stop me from having it on my list of things I would like. I am not as down on disks as you sound and don't believe they are going the way of VHS anytime soon, but do understand that sales are and will likely continue to decline. But then TiVo DVRs in general are niche product, so perhaps they would go well with optical disks .


----------



## NashGuy

Regardless of what you think the TiVo BOLT actually will be like, which of the following changes in hardware and/or TiVo service do you most hope to see roll out with its arrival?
A. more tuners
B. larger hard drives
C. lower cost of hardware and/or service
D. ability to simultaneously use both cable and OTA TV sources
E. improved core DVR functionality (OnePass, recording options, trick play, etc.)
F. addition of new streaming apps (HBO, Showtime, Sling TV, etc.)
G. improvement of existing streaming apps (speed, reliability, features, etc.)
H. improved/expanded cable on-demand functionality
I. support for UHD/4K
J. improved universal search and browse
K. refreshed/redesigned TiVo user interface
L. other (explain)


----------



## jrtroo

B, G, nothing else.


----------



## Dan203

I think the base unit will have streaming and MoCa. Other then that, and a minor CPU bump, I think it will be functionally identical to the Roamio.


----------



## tjtv

I just bought a base roamio. I was under the assumption that it does have moca, am I misunderstanding? 

I thought the only thing that the base roamio couldn't do was to bridge the network from moca -> ethernet.


----------



## JoeKustra

tjtv said:


> I just bought a base roamio. I was under the assumption that it does have moca, am I misunderstanding?
> 
> I thought the only thing that the base roamio couldn't do was to bridge the network from moca -> ethernet.


Sorry, no internal support.


----------



## aaronwt

tjtv said:


> I just bought a base roamio. I was under the assumption that it does have moca, am I misunderstanding?
> 
> I thought the only thing that the base roamio couldn't do was to bridge the network from moca -> ethernet.


With the Roamio models only the Pro/Plus units have built in MoCA. The Roamio Basic/OTA does not.


----------



## Dan203

tjtv said:


> I just bought a base roamio. I was under the assumption that it does have moca, am I misunderstanding?
> 
> I thought the only thing that the base roamio couldn't do was to bridge the network from moca -> ethernet.


That's the Mini. It has MoCa but no bridge. The base Roamio has no MoCa at all and the Plus/Pro have full MoCa with bridging.


----------



## atmuscarella

NashGuy said:


> Regardless of what you think the TiVo BOLT actually will be like, which of the following changes in hardware and/or TiVo service do you most hope to see roll out with its arrival?
> A. more tuners
> B. larger hard drives
> C. lower cost of hardware and/or service
> D. ability to simultaneously use both cable and OTA TV sources
> E. improved core DVR functionality (OnePass, recording options, trick play, etc.)
> F. addition of new streaming apps (HBO, Showtime, Sling TV, etc.)
> G. improvement of existing streaming apps (speed, reliability, features, etc.)
> H. improved/expanded cable on-demand functionality
> I. support for UHD/4K
> J. improved universal search and browse
> K. refreshed/redesigned TiVo user interface
> L. other (explain)


You are mixing things that can be done with the current Roamio series (B, C, E, F, G, H, J, K) and things that actually would require new hardware (A, D, I,).

For new hardware I would like to see 4K/UHD support, built in stream & MOCA support for all models, plug & go support of up to 6TB hard drives, Updated processor and enough memory to improved overall performance, and as I indicated before a high end model with UHD blu-ray built in.

On the software side I am fine with the current UI, of course I would like them to continue to improve all functionality, add more streaming services, including providing support for all services that provide 4K/UHD downloads.


----------



## NashGuy

atmuscarella said:


> You are mixing things that can be done with the current Roamio series (B, C, E, F, G, H, J, K) and things that actually would require new hardware (A, D, I,).


Yes. That's why I phrased the question as "hardware and/or TiVo service". Of course, there may be no change in the TiVo service/software but sometimes TiVo uses the announcement of new hardware as an opportunity to also update service/software, both for the new hardware as well as previous-generation hardware.


----------



## davezatz

At least three models, based on FCC filing that just went thru. Could merely be hard drive or tuner differences.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/632336015416520704
TCD849500, TCD849000, and TCD849510


----------



## sicariis

Hard drive capacities through the line? I'm going to guess 1TB in the Aereo (OTA) version, and then 2TB and 4TB in the two cablecard models. Though I would love to be suprised and see a 6TB model.


----------



## Dan203

So we know from your previous posts that the TCD849500 TCD849000 are CalbeCARD units so I assume the TCD849510 is the Aereo OTA one. Since it wasn't submitted to Cable Labs that seems to indicate it's OTA only and not a hybrid like the Basic. Also based on the model numbers of the Roamio we can speculate that the TCD849000 is the bigger "Pro" unit. (the Roamio Pro has a lower model number then the Plus) Which means it's likely that the TCD849500 and TCD849510 are essentially the same unit just one OTA and one CableCARD. (the Roamio Basic is TCD846500 and the OTA is TCD846510, so the 10 seems to indicate OTA)


----------



## abovethesink

If they are using the general Roamio architecture as we are assuming, they have to learn from their mistake and use a 4 TB minimum HD in the larger model. Given that much more of TiVo's userbase is tech savvy than any virtually any other tech manufacturer, they must have lost some unexpected money on the drop and play nature of the 3TB drive that was in the Pro. If this is Apple with an iDevice, something like switching out a harddrive is beyond most of the userbase, but I don't imagine this is the case with TiVo.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> So we know from your previous posts that the TCD849500 TCD849000 are CalbeCARD units so I assume the TCD849510 is the Aereo OTA one. Since it wasn't submitted to Cable Labs that seems to indicate it's OTA only and not a hybrid like the Basic. Also based on the model numbers of the Roamio we can speculate that the TCD849000 is the bigger "Pro" unit. (the Roamio Pro has a lower model number then the Plus) Which means it's likely that the TCD849500 and TCD849510 are essentially the same unit just one OTA and one CableCARD. (the Roamio Basic is TCD846500 and the OTA is TCD846510, so the 10 seems to indicate OTA)


So basically then one model is strictly OTA, one model is OTA/cable, and the other model is strictly cable.
I am also wondering if this is a new series or is this a mid model upgrade.
It will be interesting to see if the problem of needing to attenuate the cable signal because the unit is over amplifying the signal will be gone.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Measurements from the docs:

Plastic, converted to inches: 11.2 x 6.8 x 1.7

Basic Roamio and OTA are 14.2 x 7.4 x 2

40% less volume. Wonder if the "Pro" is the same size?


----------



## tjtv

Dan203 said:


> That's the Mini. It has MoCa but no bridge. The base Roamio has no MoCa at all and the Plus/Pro have full MoCa with bridging.


Thanks for the clarification. I knew one of them had partial-moca, but couldn't remember which one.


----------



## Dan203

Jed1 said:


> So basically then one model is strictly OTA, one model is OTA/cable, and the other model is strictly cable.
> I am also wondering if this is a new series or is this a mid model upgrade.
> It will be interesting to see if the problem of needing to attenuate the cable signal because the unit is over amplifying the signal will be gone.


There is no indication that one has both cable and OTA. Personally I think they will get rid of that and instead they will have a low end cable only unit, a low end OTA only unit and then a higher end "Pro" type unit. The lower end units might be limited to 4 tuners while the higher end unit has 6. So basically they're eliminating the Plus. Probably specifically to eliminate the lost profits from people buying the cheaper unit and dropping in their own hard drives. There will be only one option if you want a 6 tuner unit.

Or at least that's my guess.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Okay so this is how the models shake out:

Roamio OTA......TCD846510--->TCD849510 Bolt Aereo (OTA only) 
Roamio "basic"..TCD846500--->TCD849500 Bolt (Cablecard & OTA?)
Roamio Plus......TCD848000--->TCD849000 Bolt (Cablecard only?)
Roamio Pro.......TCD840300--->???

We don't really know for sure that either of the CableCard models will have OTA capabilities at all. It's possible that neither of them will, and conversely it's also possible that one or even both of them will.


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> There is no indication that one has both cable and OTA. Personally I think they will get rid of that and instead they will have a low end cable only unit, a low end OTA only unit and then a higher end "Pro" type unit. The lower end units might be limited to 4 tuners while the higher end unit has 6. So basically they're eliminating the Plus. Probably specifically to eliminate the lost profits from people buying the cheaper unit and dropping in their own hard drives. There will be only one option if you want a 6 tuner unit.
> 
> Or at least that's my guess.


I am hoping that one of the units have the OTA/cable option as that is what I would buy since I have the option of dropping cable and trying antenna and not needing to buy a different TiVo.

If there is no OTA/cable option then I definitely will not get lifetime any more as the programming costs are starting to get out of control.

There is some interesting language in the confidentiality agreement TiVo filed with the FCC.
https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=2715630



> ________TiVo Inc.__________ has spent substantial effort in developing this product and it is *one of the first of
> its kind in industry*. Having the subject information easily available to "competition" would negate the advantage they
> have achieved by developing this product. Not protecting the details of the design will result in financial hardship.





> Short-Term Confidentiality:
> The applicant requests the exhibits selected above as short term confidential be withheld from public view for a
> period of ___________________180_ days from the date of the Grant of Equipment Authorization and prior to
> marketing. This is to avoid premature release of sensitive information prior to marketing or release of the product to
> the public.


This covers pictures and the user manual for the new devices. This was filed on June 18th so it expires on the 18th of December.

I also want to add that one of the test documents had a date from August of last year so it looks like this was a long time in the making.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Jed1 said:


> There is some interesting language in the confidentiality agreement TiVo filed with the FCC.
> https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=2715630
> 
> This covers pictures and the user manual for the new devices. This was filed on June 18th so it expires on the 18th of December.
> 
> I also want to add that one of the test documents had a date from August of last year so it looks like this was a long time in the making.


Sounds like typical legal boilerplate language to me. I'm sure FCC rules probably require them to give a justification as to why a public document should be withheld from the public for a period of time. If you went back and looked at TiVo's previous filings for the Roamios, I'm sure it would also have some kind of language in it like "one of the first of its kind in industry".


----------



## Jed1

tarheelblue32 said:


> Sounds like typical legal boilerplate language to me. I'm sure FCC rules probably require them to give a justification as to why a public document should be withheld from the public for a period of time. If you went back and looked at TiVo's previous filings for the Roamios, I'm sure it would also have some kind of language in it like "one of the first of its kind in industry".


I was kind of thinking the same thing. I figure I would post it to add to the suspense of the new units.
TiVo better come up with a doozy with these Bolts.....first of its kind....we will see!!!!

I think all white DVRs would be a first.


----------



## Dan203

I hope they're not white. White electronics stand out too mich in the AV rack. I like stuff to be black and discrete.

Not that I have any plans to buy one of these. My Roamio Pro works just fine for me.


----------



## aaronwt

If they actually are white then the only way I would consider buying one if there was a performance increase over the Roamio. Otherwise I have no desire to have a piece of electronics that is white. It wouldn't fit in with the many dozens of other devices I have that are black.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> So we know from your previous posts that the TCD849500 TCD849000 are CalbeCARD units so I assume the TCD849510 is the Aereo OTA one.


Would TiVo need to submit, as an example, both the Plus *and* Pro models to CableLabs for certification, even though they only differ in hard drive capacity? I'm just curious if the submission of 2 new models means there will only be those 2 new CableCARD-compatible models. (I could see the base Roamio needing separate certification from the Plus/Pro, certainly.)


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> Would TiVo need to submit, as an example, both the Plus *and* Pro models to CableLabs for certification, even though they only differ in hard drive capacity? I'm just curious if the submission of 2 new models means there will only be those 2 new CableCARD-compatible models. (I could see the base Roamio needing separate certification from the Plus/Pro, certainly.)


They did submit the Plus and the Pro to Cable Labs, so yes they would.


----------



## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> Regardless of what you think the TiVo BOLT actually will be like, which of the following changes in hardware and/or TiVo service do you most hope to see roll out with its arrival?


L. other :: *User profiles* for TiVo (personalized watched progress, app authentication, My Shows filtering, Favorites, etc);

A, D :: Ability to use certified *network-based OTA & CableCARD tuners* (e.g. SiliconDust), allowing increase in number of tuners and simultaneous CableCARD and OTA recording;

B. *larger hard drives*, increasing the max "drop-in" drive size;


----------



## krkaufman

Jed1 said:


> I think all white DVRs would be a first.


And a last, as well, I expect.


----------



## bradleys

krkaufman said:


> L. other :: *User profiles* for TiVo (personalized watched progress, app authentication, My Shows filtering, Favorites, etc);
> 
> A, D :: Ability to use certified *network-based OTA & CableCARD tuners* (e.g. SiliconDust), allowing increase in number of tuners and simultaneous CableCARD and OTA recording;
> 
> B. *larger hard drives*, increasing the max "drop-in" drive size;


Highly unlikely you would see anything unique in the UI, they will keep supported models in sync. Maybe some cloud based strategy, or preparation for downloadable security - but nothing unique in the user experience outside of that.

Also, little value in supporting larger "drop-in" drive size above their own max offering. And really, why go larger when cloud is the future?

More tuners? Maybe - but that would surprise me as well.

After all the pessimism, I also don't know what would motivate me to upgrade my Roamio - and I certainly am not a fan of anything not stackable. I still have a Premiere - so maybe they will come up with something.

I am waiting to see if this is just a refreshed S5 or an S6


----------



## TazExprez

bradleys said:


> Highly unlikely you would see anything unique in the UI, they will keep supported models in sync. Maybe some cloud based strategy, preparation for downloadable security - but nothing unique in the user experience outside of that.
> 
> Also, little value in supporting larger "drop-in" drive size above their own max offering. And really, why go larger when cloud is the future?
> 
> More tuners? Maybe - but that would surprise me as well.


Could CC devices potentially be software upgraded to not require a CC? It would be great if these Bolt units supported the next security system.


----------



## bradleys

TazExprez said:


> Could CC devices potentially be software upgraded to not require a CC? It would be great if these Bolt units supported the next security system.


Seems "early" for that, but zatz just reported that tivo has been involved in Charters new downloadable security protocol.

So that is my guess...

http://www.multichannel.com/news/next-tv/charter-worldbox-deployments-are-underway/393022



> And while the Worldbox is a device that is being leased by the operator, industry sources also confirm that Charter and TiVo are in talks about a retail solution that would employ the new downloadable security platform. - See more at: http://www.multichannel.com/news/ne...ents-are-underway/393022#sthash.CR1Le2Sn.dpuf


----------



## series5orpremier

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Measurements from the docs:
> 
> Plastic, converted to inches: 11.2 x 6.8 x 1.7
> 
> Basic Roamio and OTA are 14.2 x 7.4 x 2
> 
> 40% less volume.


And I had thermal concerns with the Roamio. I'd hope these Bolt components have the same or greater processing speed with a power reduction. Perhaps their cases are curved specifically to provide additional air space around the unit and discourage people from stacking these hot potatoes on top of each other.


----------



## foghorn2

nashguy said:


> regardless of what you think the tivo bolt actually will be like, which of the following changes in hardware and/or tivo service do you most hope to see roll out with its arrival?
> A. More tuners
> b. Larger hard drives
> c. Lower cost of hardware and/or service
> d. Ability to simultaneously use both cable and ota tv sources
> e. Improved core dvr functionality (onepass, recording options, trick play, etc.)
> f. Addition of new streaming apps (hbo, showtime, sling tv, etc.)
> g. Improvement of existing streaming apps (speed, reliability, features, etc.)
> h. Improved/expanded cable on-demand functionality
> i. Support for uhd/4k
> j. Improved universal search and browse
> k. Refreshed/redesigned tivo user interface
> l. Other (explain)


c,e,f,h,k


----------



## krkaufman

bradleys said:


> Highly unlikely you would see anything unique in the UI, they will keep supported models in sync. Maybe some cloud based strategy, or preparation for downloadable security - but nothing unique in the user experience outside of that.
> 
> Also, little value in supporting larger "drop-in" drive size above their own max offering. And really, why go larger when cloud is the future?
> 
> More tuners? Maybe - but that would surprise me as well.


"Hope" was the operative word, and it needn't be realistic.



NashGuy said:


> *Regardless of what you think the TiVo BOLT actually will be like*, which of the following changes in hardware and/or TiVo service *do you most hope* to see roll out with its arrival?


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> Seems "early" for that, but zatz just reported that tivo has been involved in Charters new downloadable security protocol. So that is my guess... http://www.multichannel.com/news/next-tv/charter-worldbox-deployments-are-underway/393022


OMG too funny, I just thought the same thing and posted over there!!!


----------



## series5orpremier

On a TiVo survey I told them I wouldn't consider buying a premium model unless it had integrated OTA. There's really no point in having that feature unless there are at least 6 tuners. If that's not available I'd rather integrate the way I currently am with 4 tuners for OTA and 4 tuners for cable which also doubles as an OTA backup unit.


----------



## aaronwt

I thought there weren't any ATSC chipsets that supported more than four tuners?

If that is still the case then there would still be a four tuner limit for OTA.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> I thought there weren't any ATSC chipsets that supported more than four tuners?
> 
> If that is still the case then there would still be a four tuner limit for OTA.


Not necessarily. They could always use two. We know there are 3 tuner chipsets, since that's what the HDHomeRun uses. Although that would probably be to expensive. But possible.

Interesting news about the Charter downloadable security thing. I assumed they would abandon that once STELLAR lifted the integration ban.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Not necessarily. They could always use two. We know there are 3 tuner chipsets, since that's what the HDHomeRun uses. Although that would probably be to expensive. But possible.


HDHomeRun OTA units (DUAL, Connect, Extend) just have 2 tuners; their CableCARD devices (Prime) have 3.

Your point remains, they could just split the signal to 2 4x chips.


----------



## moyekj

At this point the only thing I could see being attractive to me in new TiVo hardware compared to Roamio Pro would be elimination of tuning adapter and cablecard both of which are highly unlikely for TiVo Bolt. Will be interesting to see the Bolt hardware series but I doubt it will be very compelling to me.

Stream hardware and software that actually worked properly for OOH streaming would be nice, but I think that's a software issue more than any current Stream hardware issue.


----------



## NashGuy

NashGuy said:


> Regardless of what you think the TiVo BOLT actually will be like, which of the following changes in hardware and/or TiVo service do you most hope to see roll out with its arrival?
> A. more tuners
> B. larger hard drives
> C. lower cost of hardware and/or service
> D. ability to simultaneously use both cable and OTA TV sources
> E. improved core DVR functionality (OnePass, recording options, trick play, etc.)
> F. addition of new streaming apps (HBO, Showtime, Sling TV, etc.)
> G. improvement of existing streaming apps (speed, reliability, features, etc.)
> H. improved/expanded cable on-demand functionality
> I. support for UHD/4K
> J. improved universal search and browse
> K. refreshed/redesigned TiVo user interface
> L. other (explain)


The top three things, in descending order, that I hope to hear announced with the BOLT rollout (and which will hopefully be quickly applied to Roamio too) are:

F. *addition of new streaming apps* -- Would love to see the new Showtime and HBO Now OTT services (and for cable folks, the Showtime Anytime and HBO Go authenticated apps) get added to TiVo and integrated into OnePass

G. *improvement of existing streaming apps* -- Faster launch times across the board, please, and improved versions of the Amazon and Hulu apps

J. *improved universal search and browse* -- The capability to search and browse across traditional TV and multiple streaming services at once is very powerful. No one else does it, AFAIK. Unfortunately, the experience is marred by the fact that the results are sometimes incorrect, it can take several days before a newly added streaming title shows up in the results, customized settings for browsing (e.g. "show only free titles available in HD and sort from newest to oldest") aren't remembered and must be entered every time, and sometimes browsing settings aren't even correctly applied (e.g. "show only free titles" is set but the results still include a ton of "buy only" titles).


----------



## Jed1

krkaufman said:


> And a last, as well, I expect.


I do not know about the Bolt being the last white DVR especially if Arris is making the units for TiVo now.
Arris does this to distinguish between customer owned equipment on MSO owned equipment so the two do not get mixed up.
I think Pace was making the DVRs for TiVo but now Arris owns Pace so TiVo may not have much of a choice in this. We will have to wait and see what color the MSO units are when the Bolt comes out.

This maybe a huge downside of TiVo getting in bed with the cable industry. Also this may signal TiVo moving their consumer unit lower on the totem pole since the MSO side of their business is growing and starting to bring in more revenue than the consumer side.

Something that maybe interesting is if they are making MSO boxes that they may include the necessary hardware inside the retail Bolt to communicate back to the head end so this will eliminate the need for a tuning adapter and also possibly allow the consumer to access PPV and VOD.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Was it ever actually confirmed Pace manufactured Tivo's hardware? I mean, that was a rumor leading up to Roamio since they had leased Tivo software and were also designing a 6-tuner box with transcoding of their own at the time, but I don't recall that being an actual thing.

In any case, nothing prevents vendors from doing what Tivo wants (color, form factor, etc.). They'll do hot pink if Tivo orders it. It's cheap plastic moulding.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

NashGuy said:


> A. more tuners
> B. larger hard drives
> C. lower cost of hardware and/or service
> D. ability to simultaneously use both cable and OTA TV sources
> E. improved core DVR functionality (OnePass, recording options, trick play, etc.)
> F. addition of new streaming apps (HBO, Showtime, Sling TV, etc.)
> G. improvement of existing streaming apps (speed, reliability, features, etc.)
> H. improved/expanded cable on-demand functionality
> I. support for UHD/4K
> J. improved universal search and browse
> K. refreshed/redesigned TiVo user interface
> L. other (explain)


I like e, f, g, i, k. B for the low end is reasonable.

Most are normal software evolution. They'll happen anyway, though maybe not immediately (so I'm kinda cheating). Assuming Roamio isn't immediately EOL'ed, they don't have to be exclusive to the Bolt either. Also I've suspected a UI refresh for a while, with the removal of HMO/HME features lighting a fire under it, so I'll just continue to own that theory.

They committed to 4K a year ago, so it shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Other than an unlikely Aereo streaming service, what else would warrant this box? Would they really blow up the Roamio line and re-brand so heavily just to update the low-end boxes? That'd be sad.

I'll also WAG that the "Pro" looks more agreeable since I don't think MSOs would want to play along with Tivo's branding whimsy.


----------



## Jed1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Was it ever actually confirmed Pace manufactured Tivo's hardware? I mean, that was a rumor leading up to Roamio since they had leased Tivo software and were also designing a 6-tuner box with transcoding of their own at the time, but I don't recall that being an actual thing.
> 
> In any case, nothing prevents vendors from doing what Tivo wants (color, form factor, etc.). They'll do hot pink if Tivo orders it. It's cheap plastic moulding.


My cable system was testing TiVo and the Arris (Moxi) whole home system and the one supervisor called me and asked me to help him set the TiVo system up. The small label on the back said Pace MG4. I am not certain if it was MG but I am certain of Pace as my system uses the Pace RNG110 and 200.
They eventually went with the Arris setup. TiVo was to expensive.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jed1 said:


> My cable system was testing TiVo and the Arris (Moxi) whole home system and the one supervisor called me and asked me to help him set the TiVo system up. The small label on the back said Pace MG4. I am not certain if it was MG but I am certain of Pace as my system uses the Pace RNG110 and 200.
> They eventually went with the Arris setup. TiVo was to expensive.


Ah, ok I see the confusion. It's the other way around. Pace wasn't making hardware for Tivo, Tivo was/is leasing software to Pace, which we did know about.


----------



## Jed1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> They committed to 4K a year ago, so it shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Other than an unlikely Aereo streaming service, what else would warrant this box? Would they really blow up the Roamio line and re-brand so heavily just to update the low-end boxes? That'd be sad.


I am going to agree that the big deal is this is going to be the 4k unit. It will output 4k to a TV and maybe even come loaded with some new 4k apps, especially Netflix.
That probably means no more app updates for the Premiere and Roamios.
Maybe the Premiere goes EOL? There is a chart on TiVos website that shows the software version of all their units and it shows the Premieres with HD menus at 20.5.2 and the SD menu at 20.4.6.
If Pace is the manufacturer I also believe they will go with a 2.5 inch hard drive. Pace uses them in the RNG 200s. The door to replace the HDD is located on the bottom of the unit. The RNG 200 comes with 500GB or 1TB drives.
The dimensions somebody recently posted almost matches the dimensions of the RNG 200. The shape is different looking at the picture.


----------



## Jed1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Ah, ok I see the confusion. It's the other way around. Pace wasn't making hardware for Tivo, Tivo was/is leasing software to Pace, which we did know about.


Yea it could be something like that. The box was sent from TiVo and also had some minis and a stream in it.
It was the stream and minis that through him off so he gave me a call since I was one of the few on the system that use TiVos. I did not need to go up to the office as I talked him though everything on the phone so I never got to see it.

The last I talked to him he stated it is still sitting in the box in his office as nobody came to claim it. It also appears that the Arris unit did not live up to their expectations as the built in internet and phone modems ended up being disabled.
And being the Arris unit is headless, has no video outputs, they end up charging the customer for the primary TV to have a client box. He told me it would have been simpler to go with the TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Not necessarily. They could always use two. We know there are 3 tuner chipsets, since that's what the HDHomeRun uses. Although that would probably be to expensive. But possible.
> 
> Interesting news about the Charter downloadable security thing. I assumed they would abandon that once STELLAR lifted the integration ban.


Yes they could use two but as you mentioned it would make it more expensive. Which is why I didn't even consider that as option. Why I would think four tuners is the max they would have for OTA.


----------



## series5orpremier

Jed1 said:


> I am going to agree that the big deal is this is going to be the 4k unit. It will output 4k to a TV and maybe even come loaded with some new 4k apps, especially Netflix.


Why wouldn't the same or better apps be available for a 4k TV without going through TiVo? There's no content on cable or OTA to warrant a 4k feature, but if they want to have blow out sales to clear out Roamio inventory in order to charge a premium to somebody else for snake oil then bless them.


----------



## atmuscarella

series5orpremier said:


> Why wouldn't the same or better apps be available for a 4k TV without going through TiVo? There's no content on cable or OTA to warrant a 4k feature, but if they want to have blow out sales to clear out Roamio inventory in order to charge a premium to somebody else for snake oil then bless them.


We have had long threads about this before and I agree that if all TiVo does is bring 4K/UHD streaming to the 4K/UHD table then they are not bringing anything that most 4K TVs don't already have. What TiVo could bring is access to the service that are going to allow 4K downloads. While many(most?) people have good enough Internet for HD streaming that isn't true for 4K/UHD streaming and being able to download it is going to be important until more places build out faster/more reliable Internet. Then of course there is always the 4K Blu-ray disk option which basically none of us think TiVo will do.


----------



## TazExprez

Could the Bolt be coming out this week or the next? 

I just checked out the TiVo Super Savings Sale website and could not add any of the items to the cart. The website doesn't show any of the items as being sold out. I tried different browsers on my Mac and I tried Safari on the iPad and got the same results. They might be ready to pull this sale and introduce the Bolt, or they could just be having technical difficulties?


----------



## dave13077

TazExprez said:


> Could the Bolt be coming out this week or the next?
> 
> I just checked out the TiVo Super Savings Sale website and could not add any of the items to the cart. The website doesn't show any of the items as being sold out. I tried different browsers on my Mac and I tried Safari on the iPad and got the same results. They might be ready to pull this sale and introduce the Bolt, or they could just be having technical difficulties?


I was able to add the referb Roamio to the cart without issue.


----------



## aaronwt

TazExprez said:


> Could the Bolt be coming out this week or the next?
> 
> I just checked out the TiVo Super Savings Sale website and could not add any of the items to the cart. The website doesn't show any of the items as being sold out. I tried different browsers on my Mac and I tried Safari on the iPad and got the same results. They might be ready to pull this sale and introduce the Bolt, or they could just be having technical difficulties?


I just finished checkout on a Refurb Roamio Basic with Lifetime. I had no issues adding any of the Roamios on sale to the cart.


----------



## thefisch

Worked for me too. May want to clear your cache and try again or use a different browser. Not that anyone expects the sale to last long.


----------



## NashGuy

My prediction (OK, WAG) is that TiVo will unveil BOLT on Tues., Aug. 25. 

(I have no inside info, so if you're considering buying a discounted Roamio, don't bank on the Super Sale lasting until then.)


----------



## tarheelblue32

I seriously doubt TiVo will add 4k streaming apps to this model. If/when TiVo ever does this, I suspect that they will call it the "TiVo 4k". The "4k" moniker already has some marketing cache behind it, the same way that "HD" did when they brought out the "TiVo HD". Since we already know they are calling this the "TiVo Bolt", I think any sort of 4k capabilities on this upcoming model is highly unlikely.


----------



## JerryAC

NashGuy said:


> My prediction (OK, WAG) is that TiVo will unveil BOLT on Tues., Aug. 25.
> 
> (I have no inside info, so if you're considering buying a discounted Roamio, don't bank on the Super Sale lasting until then.)


I called last week to ask about deactivating a Premiere and HDS3 that I had just re-activated a few days before. I had tried unsuccessfully to get a lifetime on either with other phone calls to Tivo prior to this call. Prior conversations with Tivo informed me that I had to start over with my service history to qualify for lifetime with either box.

Both of these boxes had been active about 2.5 years ago. I deactivated them when I signed on with Dish. I canceled Dish a few weeks ago, so I wanted a DVR for OTA.

The $250 lifetime had just appeared on Tivo's web-site, so I figured if I could get a credit of the monthly service fees I just paid to go towards the purchase of a Roamio refurb with lifetime, I would do it. Plus the larger HD and 4 tuners are much better than either the Premiere or HDS3

I must have gotten the right guy, because he offered $99 lifetime on both boxes. I took him up on the Premiere, but not the HD. I then ordered a refurb Roamio for $49.99. Since I now have a lifetime Premiere, it qualified the Roamio refurb for the MSD at $12.99 / mo, (not so with a new basic Roamio OTA). I have 30 days to upgrade to lifetime, but not sure I will, as payback approaches 20 months.

The salesman tried to get me to delay the Roamio purchase if I was planning to go lifetime. He said the sale was going to last into mid September. The 21st I believe. I wanted to get a refurb, so I pulled the trigger, concerned that the refurb would not be in stock when I had the cash for the lifetime later in the month.


----------



## TazExprez

JerryAC said:


> I called last week to ask about deactivating a Premiere and HDS3 that I had just re-activated a few days before. I had tried unsuccessfully to get a lifetime on either with other phone calls to Tivo prior to this call. Prior conversations with Tivo informed me that I had to start over with my service history to qualify for lifetime with either box.
> 
> Both of these boxes had been active about 2.5 years ago. I deactivated them when I signed on with Dish. I canceled Dish a few weeks ago, so I wanted a DVR for OTA.
> 
> The $250 lifetime had just appeared on Tivo's web-site, so I figured if I could get a credit of the monthly service fees I just paid to go towards the purchase of a Roamio refurb with lifetime, I would do it. Plus the larger HD and 4 tuners are much better than either the Premiere or HDS3
> 
> I must have gotten the right guy, because he offered $99 lifetime on both boxes. I took him up on the Premiere, but not the HD. I then ordered a refurb Roamio for $49.99. Since I now have a lifetime Premiere, it qualified the Roamio refurb for the MSD at $12.99 / mo, (not so with a new basic Roamio OTA). I have 30 days to upgrade to lifetime, but not sure I will, as payback approaches 20 months.
> 
> The salesman tried to get me to delay the Roamio purchase if I was planning to go lifetime. He said the sale was going to last into mid September. The 21st I believe. I wanted to get a refurb, so I pulled the trigger, concerned that the refurb would not be in stock when I had the cash for the lifetime later in the month.


September 21 is a Monday. The Roamio line was announced on a Tuesday on August 20, 2013, so they might announce the Bolt line on September 22.


----------



## NashGuy

Hmm. Well, maybe Bolt won't roll out until Sept. It would surprise me a little if it's not before then but it's certainly possible. Also surprises me that a CSR would disclose how long the current Roamio sale will last (or that he would even know), given that the end date isn't stated on the website.

I based my prediction on the fact that both the original Roamio and the subsequent Roamio OTA were released in late August (just before the start of the fall TV season) and a special upgrade sale for existing customers (advertised via email) is set to end this Wed., Aug. 19. TiVo also likes to roll out new hardware on Tues. or Mon.


----------



## Keen

NashGuy said:


> The capability to search and browse across traditional TV and multiple streaming services at once is very powerful. No one else does it, AFAIK.


Xboxes do it too.


----------



## HarperVision

bradleys said:


> Seems "early" for that, but zatz just reported that tivo has been involved in Charters new downloadable security protocol. So that is my guess... http://www.multichannel.com/news/next-tv/charter-worldbox-deployments-are-underway/393022





HarperVision said:


> OMG too funny, I just thought the same thing and posted over there!!!


I don't know. The more I read, the more I think Bolt is related with this Charter service, etc.

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ch.../2015-08-17?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal

The timing and features seem too coincidental to me.


----------



## JosephB

HarperVision said:


> I don't know. The more I read, the more I think Bolt is related with this Charter service, etc.
> 
> http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ch.../2015-08-17?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal
> 
> The timing and features seem too coincidental to me.


It may be compatible (though I doubt it) but it won't be exclusively for the Charter downloadable security system.


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> I don't know. The more I read, the more I think Bolt is related with this Charter service, etc.
> 
> http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ch.../2015-08-17?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal
> 
> The timing and features seem too coincidental to me.


A couple pages back you were convinced it was going to work with AT&T U-verse too. I'd be shocked if this was anything other then a CableCARD and OTA device.


----------



## Dan203

Based on this image people seem to think the Bolt will be sort of humped...










However if you look at the pic you will see that the shadow does not get bigger in the middle so if it does curve it will curve back, not up. Also I'm not sure this isn't just a cutesy caricature of the actual box and the real one wont be curved at all.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> A couple pages back you were convinced it was going to work with AT&T U-verse too. I'd be shocked if this was anything other then a CableCARD and OTA device.


When did I ever say "convinced"??? This is ALL just a speculation thread last I checked, no??? I said those things before these Charter articles and info ever came out.

They talk about skinny clients, etc which TiVo has shown in he past as well as IP capabilities which is speculated that TiVo is also interested in.

It's not very far fetched to think TiVo could put some sort of streaming TV IP type app on their platform similar to SlingTV or Vue, and it could possibly be one of those, Charter, AT&T/DirecTV, TWC-TV or any other that offers those types of services.


----------



## Dan203

Sorry should have put a smiley. I was just ribbing you a bit.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Sorry should have put a smiley. I was just ribbing you a bit.


I try to look at things like a detective investigating a case. I'm just whittling down "suspects" based on the facts that present themselves. Right now, in my "case file", based on the evidence, those are the "prime suspects".


----------



## jlb

If the box is curved up, then the box MUST be on the top of everyone's stack, or on a shelf by itself. Kind of makes the box front and center. now, granted, each box will have a limited audience in its owner's house, but I could see this as a marketing....er....gimmicj, if you will, to get people talking about TiVo.

Sad if this is the case, but who knows.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Bend or not, I think any substantial stacking went out the window by being plastic and only 1.7" thick.

I don't think the picture is a cutesty caricature, but it is clearly a render. So I take the dropshadow with a grain of salt. It exists at the same thickness even at the outer edge. Like it's floating.

On the plus side, it has the approximate dimensions of a Wii U, and a flat side. Maybe it's small enough to be propped vertically and hidden, if the bend doesn't throw off its balance and can be secured.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't think the picture is a cutesty caricature, but it is clearly a render.


To me the illusion of the bend seems to go back not up. But the light/shadows are inconsistent, so it really could go either way.


----------



## desiboy

I see this sale more of a cash flow stock up event ahead of new model (lifetime sub) and release of cash tied up in refurb inventory. 

Lifetime subsidizes loss on refurb, and throwing in new at $150, catches those who care for new units and brings cash flow while letting go off new Roamio inventory. 

The new model will probably release in late September, just out of 30 day return window of the last week surge. 

As for models, same functionality at minimum - cable only, cable/ota, and ota only, with some anticipated enhancement that will make, Roamio ota and cable/ota lose lusture. So anticipate some welcome refresh. Note lack of roamio plus sale. So the lower roamios will do a catchup - moca, streaming, and hopefully HDD bump to 1TB. 

Better spend more money later than have regrets. IMHO. 

Time will tell.


----------



## TazExprez

I just ordered 2 refurbished Roamio Basic boxes. I wonder if they will do a refresh for the Mini boxes. These were just refreshed on February 2015. Should I order Mini boxes now, or should I wait for the Bolt series to be released? I need 6 of them, btw.


----------



## krkaufman

TazExprez said:


> I just ordered 2 refurbished Roamio Basic boxes. I wonder if they will do a refresh for the Mini boxes. These were just refreshed on February 2015. Should I order Mini boxes now, or should I wait for the Bolt series to be released? I need 6 of them, btw.


Depending on your timeframe, Black Friday is always a good time to buy electronics -- but that's 3 months off.


----------



## JosephB

Between the color and the shape, you guys are reading a TON into a cartoon caricature.


----------



## foghorn2

JosephB said:


> Between the color and the shape, you guys are reading a TON into a cartoon caricature.


Off topic, this is not about Donald Trump


----------



## Dan203

TazExprez said:


> I just ordered 2 refurbished Roamio Basic boxes. I wonder if they will do a refresh for the Mini boxes. These were just refreshed on February 2015. Should I order Mini boxes now, or should I wait for the Bolt series to be released? I need 6 of them, btw.


Unless you really need the RF remote I wouldn't even get the current gen. You can get the older ones for <$100 on Amazon.


----------



## mattack

JosephB said:


> I think you drastically misunderstand how these devices are built if you think that the way they provisioned drives before was in any way a hindrance.


Having to put a drive in some machine or hook up to some computer to copy an OS image onto is YET ANOTHER STEP in the production process..

Yes, it obviously IS a hindrance.


----------



## TazExprez

Dan203 said:


> Unless you really need the RF remote I wouldn't even get the current gen. You can get the older ones for <$100 on Amazon.


I got a quote from a TiVo dealer and he's giving me 6 of the newer Mini boxes for a great price. I really want the RF edition because I have IR extenders on some of my current FiOS TV boxes.


----------



## aaronwt

Amazon sells the USB RF dongle for $20.

http://www.amazon.com/USB-RF-Dongle-For-TiVo-Slide/dp/B00NPC1JVY


----------



## HarperVision

foghorn2 said:


> Off topic, this is not about Donald Trump


At least he has the balls to say and do what needs to be said and done!

He could use some spit and polish on his outward approach though!


----------



## wmcbrine

jlb said:


> If the box is curved up, then the box MUST be on the top of everyone's stack, or on a shelf by itself.


This is already the case with the base Roamio... although the curve is gentle enough that I actually have a Blu-Ray player on top of mine. But I really shouldn't. 

The Mini isn't very stackable, either.


----------



## desiboy

Oh he just made a statement on TiVo Bolt...

"I would make TiVo great again. It is a great company, and I'll make it the greatest company ever!"

No specifics though. Glad he had balls to say that.





HarperVision said:


> At least he has the balls to say and do what needs to be said and done!
> 
> He could use some spit and polish on his outward approach though!


----------



## JosephB

mattack said:


> Having to put a drive in some machine or hook up to some computer to copy an OS image onto is YET ANOTHER STEP in the production process..
> 
> Yes, it obviously IS a hindrance.


Yes, it is "another step" but there are ways to mass image new hard drives in a production line without too much difficulty. Companies like Dell and Asus and Apple have been doing it for decades. They didn't add the ability to drop in an unformatted drive to help the production process. As it was mentioned previously, adding that capability for cable company-owned and provided rental units is a very likely and plausible explanation, especially since the Motorola and Cisco DVRs work that way IIRC.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Amazon sells the USB RF dongle for $20.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/USB-RF-Dongle-For-TiVo-Slide/dp/B00NPC1JVY


Only $15 if you buy it directly from Weaknees....

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-slide-pro-remote.php


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The Bolt might support 802.11ac.

I was bored (and OCD) so I went back to the Bolt's FCC documents. The label says "Contains FCC ID: RAXWN8722BTAAC".

That FCC document is a wireless adapter card from Arcadyan Technology.

The chip on their card is the Broadcom BCM43570, which is an 802.11ac part.

So that's a potential thing.


----------



## tarheelblue32

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Bolt might support 802.11ac.
> 
> I was bored (and OCD) so I went back to the Bolt's FCC documents. The label says "Contains FCC ID: RAXWN8722BTAAC".
> 
> That FCC document is a wireless adapter card from Arcadyan Technology.
> 
> The chip on their card is the Broadcom BCM43570, which is an 802.11ac part.
> 
> So that's a potential thing.


Well isn't that interesting. I can't help but wonder if they're planning on a future with a possible wireless Mini.


----------



## TazExprez

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well isn't that interesting. I can't help but wonder if they're planning on a future with a possible wireless Mini.


Are there any FCC filings for a wireless Mini, yet? I wonder if they will also be releasing new Mini boxes, along with the Bolt series? The 2nd generation Mini boxes came out in February 2015, so I wonder if they would refresh them so soon.


----------



## addseo1150

Well, Thank you for all


----------



## davezatz

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well isn't that interesting. I can't help but wonder if they're planning on a future with a possible wireless Mini.


That was my first thought as well... hm. Or maybe just wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## tarheelblue32

TazExprez said:


> Are there any FCC filings for a wireless Mini, yet? I wonder if they will also be releasing new Mini boxes, along with the Bolt series? The 2nd generation Mini boxes came out in February 2015, so I wonder if they would refresh them so soon.


It'll likely be a good while before a wireless Mini comes out, if it ever does. TiVo came out with a Premiere 4 with MoCA built in over a year before they actually came out with the original Mini. And they came out with the Roamios over a year before they came out with the Mini with a Roamio style remote.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

RCN was pushing for a wireless Mini a while back, but who knows at this point.

It would just be kinda nice to get rid of the requirement that the DVR be wired to bridge moca.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah it would be cool if there was a wifi to MoCa bridge then you could make the TiVo connect to the internet via wifi and the Minis connect to it via MoCa. No need for Ethernet or a MoCa bridge at the router. And since only OTT apps would be using the wifi it wouldn't be that bad.


----------



## telemark

This is what I thought was important from the FCC test report.


> Code Name: Minos
> 
> The Tivo Inc. models TCD849500, TCD849000 and TCD849510 are Digital Video Recorders that are designed to record and deliver TV and other content from a cable system to a TV... The difference between models is the capacity of the disk drive and if a cable card is required.
> 
> The I/O cabling configuration during testing was as follows:
> 
> Ethernet
> HDMI
> RF in
> DC Power
> *USB (Thumb Drive)*
> *USB (Mouse)*
> *Audio (Headphones)*
> SATA


----------



## CoxInPHX

telemark said:


> This is what I thought was important from the FCC test report.
> 
> Code Name: Minos


Minos is a king of Crete, son of Zeus and Europa
...So not a son of Roamio and Juliet!!!


----------



## HarperVision

telemark said:


> This is what I thought was important from the FCC test report. Code Name: Minos The Tivo Inc. models TCD849500, TCD849000 and TCD849510 are Digital Video Recorders that are designed to record and deliver TV and other content from a cable system to a TV... The difference between models is the capacity of the disk drive and if a cable card is required. The I/O cabling configuration during testing was as follows: Ethernet HDMI RF in DC Power USB (Thumb Drive) USB (Mouse) Audio (Headphones) SATA


 And maybe the sata port (or even USB) is for the only hard drive, an external bring your own flavor, and no internal?

Edit: strike that. They mention size of disk drive unless they intend to use small internals or SSD (unlikely).


----------



## bradleys

telemark said:


> Code Name: Minos
> 
> The Tivo Inc. models TCD849500, TCD849000 and TCD849510 are Digital Video Recorders that are designed to record and deliver TV and other content from a cable system to a TV... The difference between models is the capacity of the disk drive and if a cable card is required.
> 
> The I/O cabling configuration during testing was as follows:
> Ethernet
> HDMI
> RF in
> DC Power
> USB (Thumb Drive)
> USB (Mouse)
> Audio (Headphones)
> SATA


That is very interesting... Were Thumb Drive, Mouse and headphones specifically identified in that way?

It makes it feel, almost, mobile - doesn't it?


----------



## davezatz

bradleys said:


> That is very interesting... Were Thumb Drive, Mouse and headphones specifically identified in that way?


Keep in mind that the testing firms run things differently than we do at home due to the nature of their work and environment. Related, many products boot into lower level modes or OSes for this sort of evaluation.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah they're testing for interference generated by the hardware. They're not testing how the system actually functions in real life. As long as they can light up all the hardware and make sure it's not spewing interference into the air they're good.


----------



## abovethesink

If TiVo really wanted to differentiate the models, they could have one have normal, say 2 TB HD, and the other have a tiny HD to house the OS while the user brings their own HD for the recording space. This is wishful thinking of course as I would love a bring your own harddrive TiVo box, but a man can hope.


----------



## aaronwt

The Roamio already had a bring your own drive model. You could easily replace the existing hard drive. The entire process can take less than five minutes.


----------



## bradleys

aaronwt said:


> The Roamio already had a bring your own drive model. You could easily replace the existing hard drive. The entire process can take less than five minutes.


I think @abovethesink is talking about a hot swappable type of hard drive that lets you archive shows and swap drives on a whim


----------



## abovethesink

Yeah, but it is limited and the user is never meant to know about it were it not for a forum like this. I mean a system where you plug in an external, ANY external, and the TiVo does what is does now for any HD up to 3TB. Only the external's size would be limitless, or if there needs to be a hardcoded limit in the current TiVo OS, the limit would be so big that it is effectively limitless.


----------



## Dan203

abovethesink said:


> If TiVo really wanted to differentiate the models, they could have one have normal, say 2 TB HD, and the other have a tiny HD to house the OS while the user brings their own HD for the recording space. This is wishful thinking of course as I would love a bring your own harddrive TiVo box, but a man can hope.


That's too "geeky" for TiVo. TiVo builds DVRs that the average Joe can use. The average Joe doesn't want to have to bring his own hard drive.

I still think all of you are thinking a little too far outside the box on this. I really think we're in for a minor refresh of the Roamio Plus and Pro along with a new OTA that has all the same features of the Roamio Plus/Pro just with OTA only tuners. I will be shocked if there is even a box that is capable of either/or like the existing Roamio Basic. I think we're going to get two cable only units, with the only differentiation being the HDD size, and an OTA only unit with built in streaming and MoCa. (or maybe it wont have MoCa but instead it will have 802.11ac and they will release a wifi Mini to go with it)


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> I still think all of you are thinking a little too far outside the box on this. I really think we're in for a minor refresh of the Roamio Plus and Pro along with a new OTA that has all the same features of the Roamio Plus/Pro just with OTA only tuners. I will be shocked if there is even a box that is capable of either/or like the existing Roamio Basic. I think we're going to get two cable only units, with the only differentiation being the HDD size, and an OTA only unit with built in streaming and MoCa. (or maybe it wont have MoCa but instead it will have 802.11ac and they will release a wifi Mini to go with it)


I think you're probably right. Although, if I was heading up marketing at TiVo and was going to roll out only two cable-compatible Bolt models, I think I'd want to make it more tempting to choose the more expensive cable model. So rather than just sticking a larger hard drive in the upper model (something which the user will probably be able to do himself), I'd also differentiate it by having more tuners, like 4 tuners in the lower model and 6 in the upper. Whatever they do on the cable side, I expect no more than 4 OTA tuners in the Bolt Aereo Edition.


----------



## Dan203

That might be the case. A cable only unit with just 4 tuners. I could see that.


----------



## aaronwt

That would make more sense. A 4 tuner OTA only, a 4 tuner cable only, then a six tuner cable only. Then they wouldn't have the issue like now. Where people pay less for the Plus model and install a larger hard drive to equal or exceed the capacity of the Pro. They probably make a lot more on the Pro than the Plus.

Anyway I got my refurb lifetime Roamio Basic today. It looks brand new. It just came in a brown box and no HDMI cable. For $300 it was a great deal. So I wonder if TiVo can Wow! me enough with the Bolt to get one.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> That's too "geeky" for TiVo. TiVo builds DVRs that the average Joe can use. The average Joe doesn't want to have to bring his own hard drive.
> 
> I still think all of you are thinking a little too far outside the box on this. I really think we're in for a minor refresh of the Roamio Plus and Pro along with a new OTA that has all the same features of the Roamio Plus/Pro just with OTA only tuners. I will be shocked if there is even a box that is capable of either/or like the existing Roamio Basic. I think we're going to get two cable only units, with the only differentiation being the HDD size, and an OTA only unit with built in streaming and MoCa. (or maybe it wont have MoCa but instead it will have 802.11ac and they will release a wifi Mini to go with it)


Or the Bolt is not meant to entice people to upgrade their Roamio, just that TiVo can build a less expensive DVR to replace the Roamio with a few improvements, as their flagship DVR. I guess we will find out soon.


----------



## tenthplanet

Dan203 said:


> That's too "geeky" for TiVo. TiVo builds DVRs that the average Joe can use. The average Joe doesn't want to have to bring his own hard drive.
> 
> I still think all of you are thinking a little too far outside the box on this. I really think we're in for a minor refresh of the Roamio Plus and Pro along with a new OTA that has all the same features of the Roamio Plus/Pro just with OTA only tuners. I will be shocked if there is even a box that is capable of either/or like the existing Roamio Basic. I think we're going to get two cable only units, with the only differentiation being the HDD size, and an OTA only unit with built in streaming and MoCa. (or maybe it wont have MoCa but instead it will have 802.11ac and they will release a wifi Mini to go with it)


 And that is why there will be no curved white box Bolt's either. But it would be nice to have a totally internal power supply as in no external bricks.


----------



## caughey

bradleys said:


> I think @abovethesink is talking about a hot swappable type of hard drive that lets you archive shows and swap drives on a whim


I don't think thats what he meant, but, that would be cool.

With the coming of Frontier FiOS and its associated copy protection, you might have identified one feature that might be worth upgrading for. Oh, thats the other thread.


----------



## atmuscarella

tenthplanet said:


> ...But it would be nice to have a totally internal power supply as in no external bricks.


Why? The external power supplies are cheap and easy to replace. The internal ones where a problem point as the Series 3 units got older and for most were not a user fixable item.

I personally wish the hard drive was external also - maybe connected via a USB-C port so you didn't need a power supply on the hard drive.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Dan203 said:


> That's too "geeky" for TiVo. TiVo builds DVRs that the average Joe can use. The average Joe doesn't want to have to bring his own hard drive.


Tell that to all the Channel Master DVR+ owners that are too cheep, to pay for a TiVo subscription.


----------



## tarheelblue32

CoxInPHX said:


> Tell that to all the Channel Master DVR+ owners that are too cheep, to pay for a TiVo subscription.


The irony is that the Roamio OTA w/lifetime sub is currently cheaper than the Channel Master DVR.


----------



## Series3Sub

tarheelblue32 said:


> The irony is that the Roamio OTA w/lifetime sub is currently cheaper than the Channel Master DVR.


Yes, and TiVo should be targeting them or potential DVR+ consumers.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Series3Sub said:


> Yes, and TiVo should be targeting them or potential DVR+ consumers.


We'll have to wait and see what the pricing on the Bolt Aereo turns out to be, but traditionally TiVo has charged a premium price for a premium product. Competing directly with a gutter product like the Channel Master DVR+ doesn't seem like TiVo's style.


----------



## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> a gutter product like the Channel Master DVR+


snicker


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> We'll have to wait and see what the pricing on the Bolt Aereo turns out to be, but traditionally TiVo has charged a premium price for a premium product. Competing directly with a *gutter product *like the Channel Master DVR+ doesn't seem like TiVo's style.





krkaufman said:


> snicker


I prefer "sewer product" myself!


----------



## JoeKustra

CoxInPHX said:


> Tell that to all the Channel Master DVR+ owners that are too cheep, to pay for a TiVo subscription.





tarheelblue32 said:


> We'll have to wait and see what the pricing on the Bolt Aereo turns out to be, but traditionally TiVo has charged a premium price for a premium product. Competing directly with a gutter product like the Channel Master DVR+ doesn't seem like TiVo's style.





krkaufman said:


> snicker





HarperVision said:


> I prefer "sewer product" myself!


You guys are tough. Have some pity. Imagine how you would feel if you had one.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JoeKustra said:


> You guys are tough. Have some pity. Imagine how you would feel if you had one.


Sorry, I didn't mean any offense to anyone who may own one. My criticism was aimed at Channel Master.


----------



## JoeKustra

tarheelblue32 said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean any offense to anyone who may own one. My criticism was aimed at Channel Master.


I'm not serious. I follow the DVR+ thread on AVSForum. As OTA only devices go, it's not the worst. E* does most of the work and CM should stick to antennae. It is like slowing to look at a car crash. We know it's wrong, but we're human. The DVR+, not so much.


----------



## krkaufman

series5orpremier said:


> The name Bolt suggests something very speedy and fast, as in lightning bolt or Usain Bolt, ...


Well, if the Bolt is about "speed," now might be a good time to jump the gun and take advantage...

Usain Bolt Wins 100 Meters At World Championships​


----------



## Jed1

I was retrieving some information from Pace on how to enter the diagnostics on the Pace HD DTA and came across a new series of STBs. Since TiVo has a relationship with Pace I was wondering if this is the platform that the Bolt is going to be on.
http://www.pace.com/americas/products/set-top-box/iptv/iph8005m/
http://www.pace.com/Documents/Products/Am/STB/iph8005m.pdf

On the product page they mention a company Verimatrix. They deal in conditional access.
http://www.verimatrix.com/
On their set top box vendors page you will find TiVo when you scroll down to the T's.
http://www.verimatrix.com/partners/set-top-box-vendors

A company called Latens is also mentioned. They deal in conditional access market using software only cardless based security.
http://www.latens.com/

There is also a company named Minerva Networks. One of their main focuses is capturing the cord cutters and Telcos.
http://www.minervanetworks.com/
Telco solutions IPTV.
http://www.minervanetworks.com/iptv/

Now TiVo is claiming the Bolt is first of its kind. Well this Pace STB is first of its kind. TiVo has had an ongoing relationship with Pace in the past so I am wondering if this is a joint effort especially since TiVo is having an increasing relationship with the cable MSOs.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

IP-only boxes have been around. I don't think any have a cablecard slot. That's by design because IP boxes aren't really distributed by cable companies. They're intended for the small TV systems mainly.

At 1288 DMIPS, that box is effectively just as weak as the Premiere (1100 DMIPS).


----------



## Jed1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> IP-only boxes have been around. I don't think any have a cablecard slot. That's by design because IP boxes aren't really distributed by cable companies. They're intended for the small TV systems mainly.
> 
> At 1288 DMIPS, that box is effectively just as weak as the Premiere (1100 DMIPS).


It is not necessarily the same box but a starting point. If you look at the dimensions for the bolt, the height and the depth are the same but the bolt is about 1.5 inches wider.
Also TiVo is a partner with Verimatrix and Minerva is also a partner with Verimatrix, so this may indicate that the Bolt may be able to work with Uverse.
Also hasn't TiVo recently made some type of deal with Frontier which is a DSL provider.

One thing that has to be noted is TiVo's future is not going to be TiVo's past. It is apparent that working with the MSOs is more profitable going forward than selling boxes to retail customers.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Jed1 said:


> One thing that has to be noted is TiVo's future is not going to be TiVo's past. It is apparent that working with the MSOs is more profitable going forward than selling boxes to retail customers.


It's actually not more profitable, at least not yet. But it is the path of least resistance.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jed1 said:


> It is not necessarily the same box but a starting point. If you look at the dimensions for the bolt, the height and the depth are the same but the bolt is about 1.5 inches wider.
> Also TiVo is a partner with Verimatrix and Minerva is also a partner with Verimatrix, so this may indicate that the Bolt may be able to work with Uverse.
> Also hasn't TiVo recently made some type of deal with Frontier which is a DSL provider.


If you take the top off the basic Roamio and look inside, it's not hard to see how they could shave 3" off the width and half an inch off the depth to get Bolt dimensions. It's easily a progression of their own making.

Tivo and Verimatrix are 2 pieces of a package that makes up Com Hem's IPTV service in Sweden. Tivo provides the UI and Verimatrix provides the security for a Samsung box. I don't think it likely gives us any good clues into the Bolt or U.S. market.

Frontier owns a portion of the Fios footprint. Their deal is to upsell the OTA/Bolt Aereo to the internet-only customers in the Fios regions. They have a similar trial going with RCN I think.


----------



## atmuscarella

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...
> 
> Frontier owns a portion of the Fios footprint. Their deal is to upsell the OTA/Bolt Aereo to the internet-only customers in the Fios regions. They have a similar trial going with RCN I think.


No reason for Frontier to restrict their sale/lease of TiVo's OTA Roamio/Bolt to their Fios customers. I have Frontier's DSL (a 12/1 Mbps package that actually runs at 9.5/1 Mbps due to my distance to their switching station) and since Frontiers recent DSL upgrades I have no issues streaming from Hulu, Vudu (in HDX), or Amazon with my Roamio. The only issue is the 1 Mbps upload speed which would prohibit out of home streaming.

It will be interesting to see what Frontier is actually going to do with this. They offer a triple play package here that includes DishNetwork. Could they possibly get Dish to offer sling TV on what ever TiVo DVR they sell/rent?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

atmuscarella said:


> No reason for Frontier to restrict their sale/lease of TiVo's OTA Roamio/Bolt to their Fios customers. I have Frontier's DSL (a 12/1 Mbps package that actually runs at 9.5/1 Mbps due to my distance to their switching station) and since Frontiers recent DSL upgrades I have no issues streaming from Hulu, Vudu (in HDX), or Amazon with my Roamio. The only issue is the 1 Mbps upload speed which would prohibit out of home streaming.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Frontier is actually going to do with this. They offer a triple play package here that includes DishNetwork. Could they possibly get Dish to offer sling TV on what ever TiVo DVR they sell/rent?


I didn't realize that Verizon sold FiOS customers in NY. Is it Rochester, NY that you are referring to (from your profile info.)?


----------



## atmuscarella

DCIFRTHS said:


> I didn't realize that Verizon sold FiOS customers in NY. Is it Rochester, NY that you are referring to (from your profile info.)?


I don't know if Verizon sold any of their telephone area with FIOS to Frontier in NYS. But the Rochester NY area has always been Frontier (Rochester Tel from 1920 before that) and never part of Verizon. As far as I know Frontier does not have any FIOS in the Rochester NY area it is all DSL. Frontier's foot print is fairly large here it covers several counties with I am guessing over a million people - not sure how many households.

The name Frontier actual started here, in 1995 Rochester Tel did a name change to Frontier Corporation, which became part of Global Crossings, and then was spun off to Citizens utilities who did a name change to Frontier Communications.


----------



## atmuscarella

Just saw something new. In my area Frontier is now promoting their DSL by giving new subscribers 1 year of Amazon Prime for "free". Price of the DSL is the same as it has been but they added a one year commitment. The ad promotes using Amazon Prime for unlimited streaming and how well that will work with Frontier's DSL (which it does since the recent upgrades). 

Sure seems like Frontier is primed to use a TiVo OTA DVR to promote streaming & their Internet service.


----------



## b_scott

Jed1 said:


> *Now TiVo is claiming the Bolt is first of its kind.* Well this Pace STB is first of its kind. TiVo has had an ongoing relationship with Pace in the past so I am wondering if this is a joint effort especially since TiVo is having an increasing relationship with the cable MSOs.


what? where? I haven't found Tivo talking about this at all.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> I'm actually surprised the Premiere hasn't already hit EOL. But I guess because they have MSO partners using it still they are keeping it current.


my Premieres both still work very well. They're 5 years old.


----------



## telemark

b_scott said:


> what? where? I haven't found Tivo talking about this at all.


Tivo used this language on the FCC confidentially request letter. Such a claim is not usually necessary so it might be copied from their future marketing.


----------



## HarperVision

b_scott said:


> what? where? I haven't found Tivo talking about this at all.


It says it in their application to the FCC for the new Bolt Series 6 boxes.


----------



## taveanator

tarheelblue32 said:


> The irony is that the Roamio OTA w/lifetime sub is currently cheaper than the Channel Master DVR.


Totally agree. I was on DirecTV until the $300 TiVo Roamio w/ lifetime deal popped up and that sealed the deal. Last time I was with TiVo I kept the boxes for 5 years. So that's like $5 a month if I keep this box another 5 years; $8/mo if I keep it 3 years. Plopped in my old 3TB drive that was slaved to the Genie and I was off to the races with season passes galore (The 'box sets' are awesome - I've managed to automatically record a ton of old Disney movies with 5 button clicks).

I really can't imagine what the Bolt is going to bring to the table unless TiVo has some how magically worked out a deal to legally stream OTA programming to the device using Aereo technology. I'm extremely happy with the Roamio and my only wish is a few more apps (HBO Now, Showtime, Sling, etc...) and better Plex integration. If the Bolt also comes with a software refresh I can't imagine that the current Roamio's wouldn't be able to run it.


----------



## Jed1

TiVo actually has a web page for the Bolt on their website. Right now it shows the base Roamio, with the mini, stream, and accesories.
https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt

Ironically they also have one for the Premiere and that also has a picture of the Roamio with a Premiere remote.
https://www.tivo.com/shop/premiere


----------



## Keen

Jed1 said:


> TiVo actually has a web page for the Bolt on their website. Right now it shows the base Roamio, with the mini, stream, and accesories.
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt


Not really. https://www.tivo.com/shop/blah goes to the same page, and I doubt there's a Tivo Blah around the corner.


----------



## TazExprez

Keen said:


> Not really. https://www.tivo.com/shop/blah goes to the same page, and I doubt there's a Tivo Blah around the corner.


You can literally put any word after /shop/ and it shows the same page.


----------



## krkaufman

Just saw this on ZNF: Two Free Months of Hulu via Roku (expired deal)

TiVo really needs to get similar trial specials going for their Bolt on release, hopefully including any OnePass-compatible TiVo -- but for as many of the OnePass-compatible streaming services as possible.


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> Just saw this on ZNF: Two Free Months of Hulu via Roku (expired deal)
> 
> TiVo really needs to get similar trial specials going for their Bolt on release, hopefully including any OnePass-compatible TiVo -- but for as many of the OnePass-compatible streaming services as possible.


That actually makes Hulu worth it. At least for the two months it is free.


----------



## ej42137

Keen said:


> Not really. https://www.tivo.com/shop/blah goes to the same page, and I doubt there's a Tivo Blah around the corner.


I'm going to start a thread with the title: "What Features Will Be in the TiVo Blah?"


----------



## HarperVision

ej42137 said:


> I'm going to start a thread with the title: "What Features Will Be in the TiVo Blah?"


"I'm sure it'll just be the same old _boooooorrrriinnnggg_ stuff that's in all the OLD TiVos........."


----------



## davezatz

I can confirm 4k. Not sure if it's one model or all models.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> I can confirm 4k. Not sure if it's one model or all models.


If the Bolt handles UHD then my next question would be if it can downscale UHD content from 2160P to 1080P. If so then a TiVo Bolt might be in my future. And I would be selling my current Roamio Pro.

I dont have any UHD sets yet. But I wouldnt mind being able to watch the Netflix UHD 4K content downscaled to 2K.


----------



## tatergator1

krkaufman said:


> Just saw this on ZNF: Two Free Months of Hulu via Roku (expired deal)
> 
> TiVo really needs to get similar trial specials going for their Bolt on release, hopefully including any OnePass-compatible TiVo -- but for as many of the OnePass-compatible streaming services as possible.


They actually used to. Back when I got my first Premiere, circa 2011, Tivo was offering 6 months of Hulu for free as part of a purchase. Unfortunately, Hulu selection was pretty crappy back then and the Hulu app for Tivo was even worse. I cancelled before the free trial was up.


----------



## mrsean

davezatz said:


> I can confirm 4k. Not sure if it's one model or all models.


I'm not surprised at this at all. It would had been ridiculous for Tivo to not have a 4K product out within the next two years when competitors like DirectTV have already announced theirs.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Interesting. They committed to 4K last summer I think, so it's not a huge surprise.


----------



## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Interesting. They committed to 4K last summer I think, so it's not a huge surprise.


Yeah, and behind closed doors at CES they were demoing 4k. But I honestly didn't expect it this year given my perception of cost vs interest. Curious to see if all models offer it and if they can keep prices where they are OR, even better, bring them down.

I also wonder if this means the TiVo Mega is being redesigned hence its delay.


----------



## telemark

davezatz said:


> Yeah, and behind closed doors at CES they were demoing 4k. But I honestly didn't expect it this year given my perception of cost vs interest.


If I were making the business call, I'd release 4K as soon as it's ready.

Converting the consumer after they bought their 4K TV is more fraught than having the salesperson mention Tivo upfront as one of the source options.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I don't know what these chips sell for, but I think all of the 4K Broadcom chips integrate things like transcoding and moca. So if they committed to 4K that probably at least _helps_ control the BOM over using discrete chips like the XL4 and Roamios do. But I'm talking out of my rear.

They're also ARM-based as opposed to MIPS. Haxe for the win? That might've been part of the underlying motivation to move their code.


----------



## keenanSR

With the addition of 4K capability, I wonder if the file structure will stay the same and if dropping a larger drive in will still be as easy. The copyright holders may have wanted some new protections in place to protect their shiny new 4K content.


----------



## tarheelblue32

keenanSR said:


> With the addition of 4K capability, I wonder if the file structure will stay the same and if dropping a larger drive in will still be as easy. The copyright holders may have wanted some new protections in place to protect their shiny new 4K content.


I doubt it will be able to actually record 4K content. I'm guessing it will just have some 4k streaming apps like Netflix and Amazon, so the hard drive shouldn't really matter very much.


----------



## keenanSR

tarheelblue32 said:


> I doubt it will be able to actually record 4K content. I'm guessing it will just have some 4k streaming apps like Netflix and Amazon, so the hard drive shouldn't really matter very much.


That's true, the apps will likely be doing all the 4K duty, but I've also often wondered how long it would be before TiVo would finally lock down how easy it is to capture non-premium content in all its glory on a computer for use anywhere you want.


----------



## tarheelblue32

keenanSR said:


> That's true, the apps will likely be doing all the 4K duty, but I've also often wondered how long it would be before TiVo would finally lock down how easy it is to capture non-premium content in all its glory on a computer for use anywhere you want.


Well that's determined by the CCI byte flags that the cable company chooses for any given channel. On my cable system (TWC) all the channels are locked down except for the local broadcast channels.


----------



## keenanSR

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well that's determined by the CCI byte flags that the cable company chooses for any given channel. On my cable system (TWC) all the channels are locked down except for the local broadcast channels.


Right, my Comcast system does not lock it down, just premiums. But it still seems as if TiVo would/should prevent the easy off-loading of bit-perfect content off their devices. But I guess they leave that decision to the provider, TWC says no, Comcast says have at it. Just an observation and when the Bolt is released I guess we'll see if anything has changed in that regard.


----------



## tarheelblue32

keenanSR said:


> Right, my Comcast system does not lock it down, just premiums. But it still seems as if TiVo would/should prevent the easy off-loading of bit-perfect content off their devices. But I guess they leave that decision to the provider, TWC says no, Comcast says have at it. Just an observation and when the Bolt is released I guess we'll see if anything has changed in that regard.


It's not TiVo's job to lock down all content on the hard drive. There is a system in place for content providers to do that, and if they choose not to for whatever reason that's their decision.


----------



## L David Matheny

keenanSR said:


> That's true, the apps will likely be doing all the 4K duty, but I've also often wondered how long it would be before TiVo would finally lock down how easy it is to capture non-premium content in all its glory on a computer for use anywhere you want.


Do you think TiVo has a corporate death wish? As tarheelblue32 says, it's not TiVo's job to make all program content as unusable as possible; that's the job of entertainment industry lawyers and their paid legislators.


----------



## keenanSR

L David Matheny said:


> Do you think TiVo has a corporate death wish? As tarheelblue32 says, it's not TiVo's job to make all program content as unusable as possible; that's the job of entertainment industry lawyers and their paid legislators.


No, of course not, I was just curious since it's ridiculously easy to do with a TiVo yet near impossible with a cable(on the same cable system as a TiVo) or sat DVR. I hope everything stays the way it does as it's very handy, it just seems like a stark contradiction when compared to the provider-supplied equipment.


----------



## NashGuy

aaronwt said:


> If the Bolt handles UHD then my next question would be if it can downscale UHD content from 2160P to 1080P. If so then a TiVo Bolt might be in my future. And I would be selling my current Roamio Pro.
> 
> I dont have any UHD sets yet. But I wouldnt mind being able to watch the Netflix UHD 4K content downscaled to 2K.


Netflix is actually filming some of their original content in 6K! All resolutions at which the shows are actually streamed (UHD, HD 1080p, SD) are downscaled from the original 6K. Which is one reason why some Netflix original shows look so amazing even in HD compared to other HD stuff. Starting with good source material makes a big difference.

http://4k.com/news/going-way-beyond...of-cards-third-season-in-6k-resolution-60345/

But directly to your question, no, I wouldn't see Netflix streaming the content in UHD (taking up more bandwidth) only to be downscaled by the set-top app/box to 1080p. They're already providing an optimized downscaled 1080p stream from their servers.


----------



## Dan203

Huh, didn't really expect this. 4K doesn't actually exist in broadcast yet and apps always seemed a bit secondary on TiVo so I didn't expect them to jump on 4K until there was actually something out there to record. 

One source of disappointment for a lot of 4K early adopters is going to be the lack of HDMI 2.0. Only the most recent generation of 4K TVs have it, all the older ones still had HDMI 1.4, so they're not going to be able to use their new 4K TiVo with their older 4K TV and they may not even realize it. (unless the apps can scale to 4K/30fps automatically when connected to HDMI 1.4)


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> Netflix is actually filming some of their original content in 6K! All resolutions at which the shows are actually streamed (UHD, HD 1080p, SD) are downscaled from the original 6K. Which is one reason why some Netflix original shows look so amazing even in HD compared to other HD stuff. Starting with good source material makes a big difference.
> 
> http://4k.com/news/going-way-beyond...of-cards-third-season-in-6k-resolution-60345/
> 
> But directly to your question, no, I wouldn't see Netflix streaming the content in UHD (taking up more bandwidth) only to be downscaled by the set-top app/box to 1080p. They're already providing an optimized downscaled 1080p stream from their servers.


That's just it. it's only optimized for that very low bitrate of 5.8Mbps. Their 1080P could look much, much better. For examaple House of Cards. While it does look good for streaming in 1080P at that low bitrate. It looks nowhere close to how it looks from a Blu-ray Disc in 1080P. I would like to be able to downscale the UHD streams to 1080P. Then the picture quality might come a little closer to what the BD looks like.

And since I'm grandfathered indefinitely on the netflix 4 stream plan, with UHD for $8 a month. I would like to be able to take advanatge of it since I don't own an UltraHD Tv.

My 4k media player, the Popcorn Hour VTEN, will take the 4K videos I've tried and scale them down to 2K. Which look very good. But there is no Netflix option on those players.

So for me, if the Bolt has the ability to downscale UHD from netflix/amazon, a slightly faster processor, and you can still easily replace the hard drive? I will definitely be buying a BOLT in that scenario. And selling my lifetime Roamio Pro to cover most of the cost of the lifetime BOLT.


----------



## tarheelblue32

I am a little surprised the Bolt will have 4K support. I always assumed that the first TiVo to support 4K would have "4K" in the name. It also makes me second guess my initial assumption that TiVo would try to reduce hardware costs and have the Bolts come in at a lower price point. The 4K hardware is bound to be more expensive at first, and coming out with 4K this early means they are going after the early adopters, who are generally expected to pay a premium for cutting-edge tech. But with Roku, Amazon, and Apple are all rumored to have a 4K streaming box coming out soon, I guess the timing of a 4K TiVo isn't that surprising.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah the 4K may be limited to the "Pro" version of the Bolt. The other two will probably be cheap version, like the Roamio Basic/OTA.

Edit: I still expect all versions to include streaming and MoCa out of the box. Those two things missing from the Basic/OTA causes a lot of confusion and likely a lot of support calls. Also think they should add wifi bridging so the TiVo can act as a MoCa - wifi bridge for the Minis. That way you can setup a TiVo by connecting your TiVo to wifi and then the Minis to MoCa and be done with it.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Yeah the 4K may be limited to the "Pro" version of the Bolt. The other two will probably be cheap version, like the Roamio Basic/OTA.
> 
> Edit: I still expect all versions to include streaming and MoCa out of the box. Those two things missing from the Basic/OTA causes a lot of confusion and likely a lot of support calls. Also think they should add wifi bridging so the TiVo can act as a MoCa - wifi bridge for the Minis. That way you can setup a TiVo by connecting your TiVo to wifi and then the Minis to MoCa and be done with it.


And if they did that there would actually be a great reason to purchase a Pro over a Plus. And could easily justify a higher $200 price. Unlike when the Roamio Pro/Plus launched.


----------



## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> And if they did that there would actually be a great reason to purchase a Pro over a Plus. And could easily justify a higher $200 price. Unlike when the Roamio Pro/Plus launched.


Maybe the "Pro" version will be called the "Bolt 4K".


----------



## Jonathan_S

tarheelblue32 said:


> Maybe the "Pro" version will be called the "Bolt 4K".


That would make the naming less confusing... 
I always seems to double guess myself about whether the Plus or the Pro is the name for the top-end unit. (Kind of like the potential confusion, back in the day, when USB full speed was slower than USB high speed). But if the lineup becomes Bolt, Bolt Plus, Bold 4K then it's easier to keep straight.


----------



## Dan203

There are only going to be two cable models and one OTA version. We know this from the model numbers filed with the FCC and CableLabs. So it's likely it will be Bolt, Bolt Pro (or Bolt 4K) and Bolt Aereo Edition.


----------



## HarperVision

So I guess the minis will be renamed the "Nut"?


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> So it's likely it will be Bolt, Bolt Pro (or Bolt 4K) and Bolt Aereo Edition.


Unless all three offer 4k. I've got some tea leaves, I just don't know how to properly read them...


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> So I guess the minis will be renamed the "Nut"?


Or the Spark


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> Unless all three offer 4k. I've got some tea leaves, I just don't know how to properly read them...


I can't imagine they could make the Basic/OTA one cheap enough with 4K hardware included.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> I can't imagine they could make the Basic/OTA one cheap enough with 4K hardware included.


Or the "Plus" version. I think TiVo needs a cheaper alternative for both OTA and cable. But I could also see some OTA people wanting 4K too. Since we are pretty sure there are only 3 models, maybe the "Pro/4K" Bolt is a monster that will do either/both OTA or CableCard for people who are willing to pay a premium price for the 4K.


----------



## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> Or the "Plus" version. I think TiVo needs a cheaper alternative for both OTA and cable. But I could also see some OTA people wanting 4K too. Since we are pretty sure there are only 3 models, maybe the "Pro/4K" Bolt is a monster that will do either/both OTA or CableCard for people who are willing to pay a premium price for the 4K.


All 4K HDTVs come with a 4K Netflix application, so that the HDMI cable input is not relevant, what would a 4K TiVo offer anybody over their own 4K HDTV, one less remote ? and then with TiVo you may have the HDMI cable spec problem, v1.4 vs v2.0. 
If cable has a 4K spec that they can put some ch on and the new TiVo can record the new 4K cable ch, then I would understand.


----------



## tarheelblue32

lessd said:


> All 4K HDTVs come with a 4K Netflix application, so that the HDMI cable input is not relevant, what would a 4K TiVo offer anybody over their own 4K HDTV, one less remote ? and then with TiVo you may have the HDMI cable spec problem, v1.4 vs v2.0.
> If cable has a 4K spec that they can put some ch on and the new TiVo can record the new 4K cable ch, then I would understand.


I actually agree with you that it all seems a little unnecessary, but Apple, Amazon, and Roku are all going to be hopping on the 4K bandwagon soon, so TiVo sort of has to also just to keep up with the competition.


----------



## Dan203

I don't think there is much of a market for a high end OTA unit. 

I guess they might do an all in one unit for the Pro but I doubt it.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> I actually agree with you that it all seems a little unnecessary, but Apple, Amazon, and Roku are all going to be hopping on the 4K bandwagon soon, so TiVo sort of has to also just to keep up with the competition.


Cable at least has the bandwidth to do 4K if they want. It's impossible to broadcast 4K OTA right now.


----------



## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> I actually agree with you that it all seems a little unnecessary, but Apple, Amazon, and Roku are all going to be hopping on the 4K bandwagon soon, so TiVo sort of has to also just to keep up with the competition.


But again Apple, Roku and Amazon 4K will go directly into the 4K HDTV, no HDMI cable needed, am I incorrect with that assumption ?


----------



## Dan203

lessd said:


> But again Apple, Roku and Amazon 4K will go directly into the 4K HDTV, no HDMI cable needed, am I incorrect with that assumption ?


AppleTV, FireTV and Roku all connect to a TV via HDMI.

The only apps that bypass HDMI are the ones built directly into the TV itself.


----------



## keenanSR

lessd said:


> But again Apple, Roku and Amazon 4K will go directly into the 4K HDTV, no HDMI cable needed, am I incorrect with that assumption ?


I don't follow you, you'd still need a cable to get it from the Apple, Roku and Amazon boxes to the AVR and then to the display or even just to the display.


----------



## Dan203

A bigger question... If TiVo is using new Broadcom chips that are ARM based rather then MIPS, will they be able to run Android apps? That could be a game changer.


----------



## keenanSR

Dan203 said:


> AppleTV, FireTV and Roku all connect to a TV via HDMI.
> 
> The only apps that bypass HDMI are the ones built directly into the TV itself.


Which can be somewhat crippled performance-wise such as no 24Hz framerate versus a TiVo which will output that framerate from both Netflix and Amazon.


----------



## thefisch

4K will certainly get them some attention. Not from me as I don't have a 4K TV and have no plans to upgrade. But now that it is September 3rd, it seems more likely to be a March release rather than a September. Sure they announced the HD around the 12th of September back in 2006 but the last two launches before fall TV were in August. Looking more like March to me... that gives other streaming products time to steal their 4K thunder (shameless Bolt reference).


----------



## Dan203

I think we still have a couple week window for it to be a Fall release.


----------



## davezatz

thefisch said:


> Sure they announced the HD around the 12th of September back in 2006 but the last two launches before fall TV were in August. Looking more like March to me... that gives other streaming products time to steal their 4K thunder (shameless Bolt reference).


No way. It's a September or October, at the latest, release (assuming to show stoppers). Earnings are September 8th, I'm sure they'd want to get some momentum for that call with this... but it might still be soon. Certainly they'll be ready by CEDIA in October - they'll want to demo 4k there.


----------



## tarheelblue32

davezatz said:


> No way. It's a September or October, at the latest, release (assuming to show stoppers). Earnings are September 8th, I'm sure they'd want to get some momentum for that call with this... but it might still be soon. Certainly they'll be ready by CEDIA in October - they'll want to demo 4k there.


Yeah it has to be coming sooner rather than later. Why else would they be burning through their inventory of Roamios with the current fire sale.


----------



## jonw747

They could decide to wait 30 days after current stock is depleted so they don't have to deal with buyer's remorse returns.


----------



## Dan203

No one buying a $300 Roamio with lifetime is going to return it for an $1,100 Bolt. (Assuming the 4k Bolt has same starting price as Roamio Pro) Maybe for the Aereo edition, but it depends on the price difference.


----------



## NashGuy

jonw747 said:


> They could decide to wait 30 days after current stock is depleted so they don't have to deal with buyer's remorse returns.


The problem with that is TiVo would essentially have nothing to sell at the low end of their product line-up for a full 30 days, which would not do any favors to the quarterly earnings report. I just don't see that happening. If the Premiere to Roamio transition is an indicator, we may see Roamios continued to be cleared out even after the Bolt arrives.


----------



## NashGuy

aaronwt said:


> That's just it. it's only optimized for that very low bitrate of 5.8Mbps. Their 1080P could look much, much better.


Ah, OK, I see your reasoning now. Yes, if the hardware/software in the Bolt was tuned for it, maybe downscaling the Netflix UHD stream would result in a better picture than the best-quality native 1080p stream. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Bolt and its accompanying Netflix app will allow for that but we can hope...


----------



## thefisch

davezatz said:


> No way. It's a September or October, at the latest, release (assuming to show stoppers). Earnings are September 8th, I'm sure they'd want to get some momentum for that call with this... but it might still be soon. Certainly they'll be ready by CEDIA in October - they'll want to demo 4k there.


Of course they don't have to keep to traditional release dates, but they have had a pretty consistent pattern likely to maximize impact for earnings releases to meet analyst expectations. It's not that they can't release something in October, but it just seems out of practice unless they are trying to create momentum before the holidays.


----------



## NashGuy

davezatz said:


> No way. It's a September or October, at the latest, release (assuming to show stoppers). Earnings are September 8th, I'm sure they'd want to get some momentum for that call with this... but it might still be soon. Certainly they'll be ready by CEDIA in October - they'll want to demo 4k there.


They could announce Bolt next week but I'm afraid it wouldn't get the media attention it deserves given that all eyes will be focused on Apple next week with their new iPhones, Apple TV and whatever else. If it were me, I'd hint at the Bolt on the earnings call and then announce/release it the following week.

We'll see. Can't be too far off...


----------



## jonw747

NashGuy said:


> The problem with that is TiVo would essentially have nothing to sell at the low end of their product line-up for a full 30 days, which would not do any favors to the quarterly earnings report. I just don't see that happening. If the Premiere to Roamio transition is an indicator, we may see Roamios continued to be cleared out even after the Bolt arrives.


Well, it wouldn't be a good idea for them to sit on a product that's ready to ship if it's going to cost them sales ... but if the Bolt isn't ready to go, that's another matter.

We also don't know what the pricing structure is going to be like.

If they act same-old/same-old about this, the price will be high, and the lifetime won't be discounted.


----------



## aaronwt

jonw747 said:


> Well, it wouldn't be a good idea for them to sit on a product that's ready to ship if it's going to cost them sales ... but if the Bolt isn't ready to go, that's another matter.
> 
> We also don't know what the pricing structure is going to be like.
> 
> If they act same-old/same-old about this, the price will be high, and the lifetime won't be discounted.


Well it should be discounted by $100. Doesn't that one code still work? PLSR or something. I know I have typically used that code instead of the Multi-Service discount. Since a box with lifetime from the PLSR? code could be used as a qualifier for lifetime service for other TiVos. .


----------



## Chris Gerhard

The upcoming 4K Blu-ray will require HDCP 2.2 in addition to HDMI 2.0. I just recently purchased a Yamaha RX-V579 getting ready for 4k, it only has 1 of 6 HDMI inputs with HDCP 2.2. I won't have cable but will sure be interested in 4K streaming.

Will any 4K streaming services require HDCP 2.2 handling? I had assumed the answer was no. I knew to avoid the early 4K displays and AVRs because of the issue with 4K Blu-ray DRM. I am hoping for Netflix 4K Blu-ray rentals to be available and I don't expect 4K OTA in my lifetime but who knows how things will progress. Streaming 4K, will I use my Blu-ray player or a new TiVo or other? I don't have a clue at this point but I wasn't expecting a 4K TiVo this soon.


----------



## Dan203

I believe the 4K streaming services require HDCP 2.2 as well. As of right now I don't think there are any external devices that support 4K streaming though, only apps built right into the TV, so I don't think we can say for sure what they will do without 2.2


----------



## DCIFRTHS

A TiVo that can do 4K... Amazing considering that they haven't released a complete HD UI.


----------



## aaronwt

Hopefully the Bolt UI will be complete. But this is TiVo we're talking about.


----------



## Dan203

DCIFRTHS said:


> A TiVo that can do 4K... Amazing considering that they haven't released a complete HD UI.


They get a little closer with every release. Now we're down to just the settings menus being the old style, and even some of them use the HDUI. Not sure why they don't just make a push and get them all done.


----------



## csell

Dan203 said:


> They get a little closer with every release. Now we're down to just the settings menus being the old style, and even some of them use the HDUI. Not sure why they don't just make a push and get them all done.


The 'Devices' section is still the old style. It's actually quite annoying because it does not remember/save your group settings. So everytime I go into 'Devices', all of my shows aren't grouped like they need to be.


----------



## Dan203

The Devices section is HD if the device you're looking at is a Premiere or Roamio. If it's a PC or a S3 TiVo then it's still SD.


----------



## csell

Dan203 said:


> The Devices section is HD if the device you're looking at is a Premiere or Roamio. If it's a PC or a S3 TiVo then it's still SD.


Correct - Mine is looking at a PC.


----------



## NashGuy

In the span of about 13 months, the TiVo platform has come a long way.

--introduced the Roamio OTA, their first OTA-only DVR
--updated the Amazon Instant Video app, including Prime
--added the Vudu app
--updated the Spotify app
--introduced OnePass
--added and then updated the Plex app
--added the iHeartRadio app
--introduced the Bolt, the first DVR with UHD streaming
--??

Not bad! Makes me optimistic about the improvements we'll see during the year ahead.


----------



## atscntsc

davezatz said:


> I can confirm 4k. Not sure if it's one model or all models.


This possibility was announced about one year ago:
Broadcom Powers TiVo's New Ultra HD Set-top Box Solution

I can not post links (my first post), but it has been discussed under the topic "Ultra HD-ready TiVo in the works" in this forum. A google search will also help find the Broadcom press release. Maybe someone can update with the correct links.


----------



## Mikeguy

One of a few press reports: http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s870350

Thanks!


----------



## NatasNJ

I just ordered the Tivo Roamio special. Can still return it but not sure I will. I can't see a Tivo Bolt being cheap, I don't have a 4k TV yet, and who knows when it will come out.

I do want to go to 4k and am hoping that a TIVO Bolt can stream non-4k material to a Tivo Mini. So I can just upgrade that one unit vs both down the road. We will see.
I can't see a huge benefit for 4k just yet as much as I want to do it since the content is just not out there yet. So I should relax and be happy to get the Roamio and use that for a few years then upgrade it ALL in 2018!!!


----------



## Dan203

That brings up an interesting dilemma. If the MSOs actually start broadcasting 4K and the Bolt is able to record it you wont be able to watch via Mini because the existing Minis don't have HEVC decoders. They would need to release a new 4K Mini in conjunction with the Bolt to make the setup complete.


----------



## thefisch

Dan203 said:


> That brings up an interesting dilemma. If the MSOs actually start broadcasting 4K and the Bolt is able to record it you wont be able to watch via Mini because the existing Minis don't have HEVC decoders. They would need to release a new 4K Mini in conjunction with the Bolt to make the setup complete.


Get ready for the mini fire sale!


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> That brings up an interesting dilemma. If the MSOs actually start broadcasting 4K and the Bolt is able to record it you wont be able to watch via Mini because the existing Minis don't have HEVC decoders. They would need to release a new 4K Mini in conjunction with the Bolt to make the setup complete.


Perhaps by the time TiVo builds a DVR that can record cable/OTA 4k/h.265 they will be able to transcode those 4K recordings to h.264 via their built in stream that the Mini can play, which would be more than good enough for any 1080p TVs.


----------



## Dan203

The problem with transcoding is that there is always a lag. You couldn't get the smooth FF/RW you get now with a Mini. They'd only ever be able to do 30 second skip and instant replay like the apps and there would be a slight lag after each button press.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Dan203 said:


> I believe the 4K streaming services require HDCP 2.2 as well. As of right now I don't think there are any external devices that support 4K streaming though, only apps built right into the TV, so I don't think we can say for sure what they will do without 2.2


I won't have a 4K TV for a year or two, maybe longer but I wanted a new 7.1 AVR so I wanted to try to get 4K capability covered at the same time. I hope there aren't any gotchas by the time I have 4K. I can live with connected devices for streaming requiring HDCP 2.2 but everybody with 4K TVs and AVRs without HDCP 2.2 may have some regrets.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> That brings up an interesting dilemma. If the MSOs actually start broadcasting 4K and the Bolt is able to record it you wont be able to watch via Mini because the existing Minis don't have HEVC decoders. They would need to release a new 4K Mini in conjunction with the Bolt to make the setup complete.


I don't believe MSOs are anywhere close to broadcasting UHD channels. For a variety of reasons, I think the only way we'll be watching UHD content over the next two years will be via streaming, downloads and UHD Blu-ray discs.

It's not even clear that HEVC/H.265 will ultimately be the standard codec used by UHD broadcasting, either OTA or via cable. (There are major concerns about the price demands from the H.265 patent holders, prompting the possibility of the development of a royalty-free UHD codec.) And by the time there are actually UHD channels actively broadcasting, accessing them via cable may require whatever replaces CableCard. By the time UHD broadcasting becomes a reality either via OTA or cable, TiVo will have released at least one more hardware generation beyond Bolt.

So, all that said, I don't think anyone should expect the TiVo Bolt to offer any UHD/4K content other than what will be delivered by select streaming apps such as Netflix, Amazon and Vudu. (Perhaps others, such as UltraFlix, will be added too.) Don't expect UHD content from YouTube, which uses the VP9 codec rather than H.265; my understanding is that the Broadcom chip which will power the Bolt decodes H.265 (used by Netflix and Amazon) but not VP9, although I may be wrong about that. Honestly, I wouldn't even expect the TiVo UI/menus to be in UHD resolution given that part of it is still currently in SD!


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> As of right now I don't think there are any external devices that support 4K streaming though, only apps built right into the TV, so I don't think we can say for sure what they will do without 2.2


Sony had an overpriced streamer of some sort and the Nvidia Shield Android TV come to mind. Not sure if that's it. Shield says HDMI 2.0.

http://shield.nvidia.com/android-tv/what-is-4k


----------



## wmcbrine

I hope all the models do 4K. I don't see 4K as high-end, but as the new standard -- you can get a 4K display for as little as $500 for 55", probably less.


----------



## atmuscarella

wmcbrine said:


> I hope all the models do 4K. I don't see 4K as high-end, but as the new standard -- you can get a 4K display for as little as $500 for 55", probably less.


Ya I have seen some of those. Saw one that didn't have built in apps, no HDMI 2.0 so basically no way to ever get 4K/UHD content to the TV and at that price point I am guessing the upscaler wasn't that great either so all you got was a crappy upscaled 4K picture.


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> I don't believe MSOs are anywhere close to broadcasting UHD channels. For a variety of reasons, I think the only way we'll be watching UHD content over the next two years will be via streaming, downloads and UHD Blu-ray discs.
> 
> It's not even clear that HEVC/H.265 will ultimately be the standard codec used by UHD broadcasting, either OTA or via cable. (There are major concerns about the price demands from the H.265 patent holders, prompting the possibility of the development of a royalty-free UHD codec.) And by the time there are actually UHD channels actively broadcasting, accessing them via cable may require whatever replaces CableCard. By the time UHD broadcasting becomes a reality either via OTA or cable, TiVo will have released at least one more hardware generation beyond Bolt.
> 
> So, all that said, I don't think anyone should expect the TiVo Bolt to offer any UHD/4K content other than what will be delivered by select streaming apps such as Netflix, Amazon and Vudu. (Perhaps others, such as UltraFlix, will be added too.) Don't expect UHD content from YouTube, which uses the VP9 codec rather than H.265; my understanding is that the Broadcom chip which will power the Bolt decodes H.265 (used by Netflix and Amazon) but not VP9, although I may be wrong about that. Honestly, I wouldn't even expect the TiVo UI/menus to be in UHD resolution given that part of it is still currently in SD!


The new Broadcom chip decodes VP9 along with HEVC. But they only just had a press release for it this past March. And from what people said it's unlikely it's in the Bolt. But I guess you never know.


----------



## NashGuy

davezatz said:


> Sony had an overpriced streamer of some sort and the Nvidia Shield Android TV come to mind. Not sure if that's it. Shield says HDMI 2.0.
> 
> http://shield.nvidia.com/android-tv/what-is-4k


Hopefully the Bolt will be HDMI 2.0a so that it can support UHD with HDR. Amazon is already streaming such content.


----------



## lessd

Is 4K that big of a deal, is the picture on a 4K HDTV 60" or less that much better at a normal viewing distance, or is this just a marketing hype to get higher end HDTV sold. As I understand we can't receive much 1080I at full resolution potential as most MSOs compact the stream to get more ch in their cable system. Before the TiVo will record UHD does it not make sense to be able to record 1080P, will MSO ever start 1080p xmissions before going to UHD. As of now only Blue Ray can give you a full 1080p picture on any 1080p HDTV, and TiVo is not in that loop. When Blue Ray goes to 4K TiVo will still not be in that loop. As of now I get a great picture on my high end 1080p HDTV of 80" from a network or premium stations with my glasses that I had made for 10 feet TV viewing. I can see each mark on people faces, it like looking at a great photo, I have a friend with a 60" UHD TV and when I look at it I don't see any difference like I saw when HDTV were first introduced.


----------



## Dan203

I saw some 4k stuff at NAB this year that looked really good, even on a small display, and some other stuff you couldn't even tell was 4k. So like everything it really depends on the content.

One thing with 4k is that you can get really close to the screen and not see the pixels, kind of like a PC monitor, so it's nice if you like to sit really close to the TV like you did when you were a kid.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> I saw some 4k stuff at NAB this year that looked really good, even on a small display, and some other stuff you couldn't even tell was 4k. So like everything it really depends on the content.
> 
> One thing with 4k is that you can get really close to the screen and not see the pixels, kind of like a PC monitor, so it's nice if you like to sit really close to the TV like you did when you were a kid.


OK!! 4K for the grand kids, would not want them to see any pixels, and report me to their parents.


----------



## trip1eX

I haven't paid attention to 4k and today was alerted to how out of touch I am about the progress. The BestBuy ad was chock full of 4k tvs. I skimmed through the first 5 or 6 pages and didn't see a regular hdtv. 

Man feels like I just got going with hdtv. 

so not ready to ride that upgrade train anytime soon. Mabye when Nintendo goes 4k.  That's about my pace.


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> Is 4K that big of a deal, is the picture on a 4K HDTV 60" or less that much better at a normal viewing distance, or is this just a marketing hype to get higher end HDTV sold. As I understand we can't receive much 1080I at full resolution potential as most MSOs compact the stream to get more ch in their cable system. Before the TiVo will record UHD does it not make sense to be able to record 1080P, will MSO ever start 1080p xmissions before going to UHD. As of now only Blue Ray can give you a full 1080p picture on any 1080p HDTV, and TiVo is not in that loop. When Blue Ray goes to 4K TiVo will still not be in that loop. As of now I get a great picture on my high end 1080p HDTV of 80" from a network or premium stations with my glasses that I had made for 10 feet TV viewing. I can see each mark on people faces, it like looking at a great photo, I have a friend with a 60" UHD TV and when I look at it I don't see any difference like I saw when HDTV were first introduced.





Dan203 said:


> I saw some 4k stuff at NAB this year that looked really good, even on a small display, and some other stuff you couldn't even tell was 4k. So like everything it really depends on the content.
> 
> One thing with 4k is that you can get really close to the screen and not see the pixels, kind of like a PC monitor, so it's nice if you like to sit really close to the TV like you did when you were a kid.


We have hashed this out in other threads. The UHD spec has three main picture enhancements:

Increased resolution
HDR (high dynamic ranch)
Increase color via the P3 standard. 
Pretty much everyone agrees the increased resolution alone does not do much unless you have a very large screen or sit very close. It is the combination of all 3 that produces a spectacular picture change. Unfortunately some 4K TVs don't even have the ability to reproduce all 3 and the only way to get all 3 is with native UHD content that specifically provides all 3.


----------



## aaronwt

When I looked at the BestBuy ad yesterday, they had a 720P TV on sale. SO then I looked closer and saw they still sell dozens on 720P TVs. So I doubt that 1080P TVs are going away anytime soon.

They still have more than twice as many 1080P sets as they do UHD sets. My problem is still price though. For a decent size UHD set, like 85", they are still way too expensive.


----------



## atmuscarella

aaronwt said:


> When I looked at the BestBuy ad yesterday, they had a 720P TV on sale. SO then I looked closer and saw they still sell dozens on 720P TVs. So I doubt that 1080P TVs are going away anytime soon.
> 
> They still have more than twice as many 1080P sets as they do UHD sets. My problem is still price though. For a decent size UHD set, like 85", they are still way too expensive.


I guess it depends on what a person thinks a "reasonable" price is for a 85" TV. Last time I thought a TV that size was reasonable was in the rear projection days. My guess is if someone is going that big now they are going to want to move to a projector and it maybe years before even a 4K projector gets to what I would consider reasonable.

The thing with 4K/UHD right now is there is little or no reason to replace a good 1080p set. You have to either need a new TV or want to be doing a major size increase. That said someone looking for a new TV in the 55-65 inch range who wants a top tier TV really only has 4K/UHD TVs to look at. The trick is spending enough to get one that is actually future proof when it comes to where UHD content is going.

Regarding smaller TVs (say sub 46 inch) nothing wrong with 720p if it is a good TV otherwise. I got my mother a 43 inch 720 plasma a few years back and at the distance she sits from it the picture looks great and just going to 1080p would have gained nothing.

Personally I don't really like the picture on most LCD TVs and hope OLED TVs pain out and that there are good ones in the 60inch range at or under $2000 before I need a new TV.


----------



## tarheelblue32

atmuscarella said:


> I guess it depends on what a person thinks a "reasonable" price is for a 85" TV. Last time I thought a TV that size was reasonable was in the rear projection days. My guess is if someone is going that big now they are going to want to move to a projector and it maybe years before even a 4K projector gets to what I would consider reasonable.


Yeah anything more than about 65" and you're into the home theater sizes where a front projector would be my choice over a panel TV.


----------



## Dan203

Projectors have issues with ambient lighting. I wouldn't want a projector unless I had a way to control the ambient lighting completely. (i.e. blackout shades) Given the layout of my living room I'd rather have an 85" panel then a projector any day.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah anything more than about 65" and you're into the home theater sizes where a front projector would be my choice over a panel TV.


Now you're talkin', baby!!! 



Dan203 said:


> Projectors have issues with ambient lighting. I wouldn't want a projector unless I had a way to control the ambient lighting completely. (i.e. blackout shades) Given the layout of my living room I'd rather have an 85" panel then a projector any day.


It's not as bad nowadays with the newer models that have higher lumens along with better contrast ratios, as well as better screen technologies. I certainly do get your point though and agree in many ambient light cases. Although ANY direct light onto the screen totally kills CR on any screen, tube, flat panel, projection, etc.


----------



## aaronwt

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah anything more than about 65" and you're into the home theater sizes where a front projector would be my choice over a panel TV.


I would have loved to setup a projector many years ago. But in my setup it means the projector would be over my head. I can hear the fan from a DVR from over fifteen feet away. Any projector anywhere near me is way to noisy for my hearing. SO my current main set is an 82" DLP set. For under $1.5K it was a great deal three years ago(But I wish I had gotten the 92" but it was double the price). But I can still hear the fan from the back of the unit. And the front of the unit is nine feet away. At nine feet away I could have easily gone much larger, but the price was more than I wanted to pay.

I would love to have the new Sony 4K Laser projector that can be right up against the wall and project something like a 140" image on the wall it's against. But it costs $50k.

Sony 4K Ultra Short Throw Projector


----------



## mrizzo80

aaronwt said:


> I would love to have the new Sony 4K Laser projector that can be right up against the wall and project something like a 140" image on the wall it's against. But it costs $50k.
> 
> Sony 4K Ultra Short Throw Projector


From the link...

DISPLAY RESOLUTION
4096 x 2160 _x 3 pixels_

WTF? Depth?


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> I would have loved to setup a projector many years ago. But in my setup it means the projector would be over my head. I can hear the fan from a DVR from over fifteen feet away. Any projector anywhere near me is way to noisy for my hearing. SO my current main set is an 82" DLP set. For under $1.5K it was a great deal three years ago(But I wish I had gotten the 92" but it was double the price). But I can still hear the fan from the back of the unit. And the front of the unit is nine feet away. At nine feet away I could have easily gone much larger, but the price was more than I wanted to pay. I would love to have the new Sony 4K Laser projector that can be right up against the wall and project something like a 140" image on the wall it's against. But it costs $50k. Sony 4K Ultra Short Throw Projector


The Sony SXRD projectors like VPL-VW40ES are near silent, fwiw.

I would take that laser projector over a $50K car any day of the week! I'll just get a beater car to get me to and fro, haha!


----------



## tarheelblue32

mrizzo80 said:


> From the link...
> 
> DISPLAY RESOLUTION
> 4096 x 2160 _x 3 pixels_
> 
> WTF? Depth?


I wouldn't think a projected image onto a flat surface could have any kind of depth. Perhaps it's some kind of variance of the image from top to bottom.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> I wouldn't think a projected image onto a flat surface could have any kind of depth. Perhaps it's some kind of variance of the image from top to bottom.


I don't get what you're saying at all? Image "depth" has to do with things like contrast ratio, gamma, resolution, etc. And for 4K the new HDR. What does throw distance and a flat wall have to do with anything??? Even an extremely thin flat panel 4K UHD TV can have image depth.


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> I don't get what you're saying at all? Image "depth" has to do with things like contrast ratio, gamma, resolution, etc. And for 4K the new HDR. What does throw distance and a flat wall have to do with anything??? Even an extremely thin flat panel 4K UHD TV can have image depth.


Fine then, "resolution depth". I don't have a better term for the 3 pixels in the 3rd dimension that appear to be listed in the specs.


----------



## keenanSR

The "3" might refer to red, green and blue diodes although I'm not familiar with the technology so it's quite possible it means something entirely different.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> Fine then, "resolution depth". I don't have a better term for the 3 pixels in the 3rd dimension that appear to be listed in the specs.


Oh ok, then Keenan is right. It's the three separate colored LEDs. It's the same concept as the 3 chip DLP projectors. They don't use a color wheel with one DMD chip, they use 3 separate DMDs, one for each color.


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> Oh ok, then Keenan is right. It's the three separate colored LEDs. It's the same concept as the 3 chip DLP projectors. They don't use a color wheel with one DMD chip, they use 3 separate DMDs, one for each color.


Ooooooh, okay. That makes sense. I've just never seen a resolution written that way.


----------



## b_scott

wmcbrine said:


> I hope all the models do 4K. I don't see 4K as high-end, but as the new standard -- you can get a 4K display for as little as $500 for 55", probably less.


I don't see broadcast/cable going to 4K standard for another 4-5 years. By then it'll be time for another Tivo.


----------



## wmcbrine

b_scott said:


> I don't see broadcast/cable going to 4K standard for another 4-5 years. By then it'll be time for another Tivo.


I don't care about broadcast/cable -- I wanna move 4K video to the TiVo with pyTivo.


----------



## Dan203

wmcbrine said:


> I don't care about broadcast/cable -- I wanna move 4K video to the TiVo with pyTivo.


From what source?


----------



## moyekj

wmcbrine said:


> I don't care about broadcast/cable -- I wanna move 4K video to the TiVo with pyTivo.


 I wouldn't be shocked if TiVo drops HME and HMO entirely for the Bolt platform though...


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> From what source?


Admittedly, there's not a lot. Yet. In fact, I have only a single test file, but I can get more from e.g. YouTube.

But soon, I think...


----------



## aaronwt

wmcbrine said:


> Admittedly, there's not a lot. Yet. In fact, I have only a single test file, but I can get more from e.g. YouTube.
> 
> But soon, I think...


My cell phone does HDR and 4K. A Galaxy S6. So I've tried some content from my phone with my 4k Popcorn Hour VTEN media player. Of course it's downscaled to 1080P since I don't have a UHD TV.


----------



## Dan203

Most of the cell phones that shoot 4k only support 30fps, so it's not true 4k. Plus who wants to buy a new TiVo just so they can watch home movies shot in 4k? Until there is either broadcast content or at the very least 4k BDs it's sole purpose is going to be for streaming services.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Most of the cell phones that shoot 4k only support 30fps, so it's not true 4k. Plus who wants to buy a new TiVo just so they can watch home movies shot in 4k? Until there is either broadcast content or at the very least 4k BDs it's sole purpose is going to be for streaming services.


Saying it's "not true 4k" @ 30fps is a little harsh. Blu-rays only do 1080p @ 24 or 30fps and I doubt you'd say that blu-rays aren't true HD.


----------



## Dan203

BDs do 24fps because film is 24fps so they're adhering to the native frame rate of the film. That will likely continue into 4k with movies being either 24fps or 48fps. But TV content and sports are suppose to use 60fps. Most HD sports are 720p because that's the only HD resolution that supports 60fps. (well really 59.94fps)


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> BDs do 24fps because film is 24fps so they're adhering to the native frame rate of the film. That will likely continue into 4k with movies being either 24fps or 48fps. But TV content and sports are suppose to use 60fps. Most HD sports are 720p because that's the only HD resolution that supports 60fps. (well really 59.94fps)


Technically, 1080i is 60fps. And NBC and CBS sports broadcast in 1080i, and I think it looks fine. And from what I understand, even blu-rays of TV shows that were originally shot and broadcast @60fps are usually only [email protected] on the blu-rays.


----------



## aaronwt

[email protected] looks fine.It still has the same resolution as 60p, just not as many frames per second.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> Technically, 1080i is 60fps. And NBC and CBS sports broadcast in 1080i, and I think it looks fine. And from what I understand, even blu-rays of TV shows that were originally shot and broadcast @60fps are usually only [email protected] on the blu-rays.


No, it's 60 *fields*/second, 30 total frames/second. Just as 480i is.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

davezatz said:


> Sony had an overpriced streamer of some sort and the Nvidia Shield Android TV come to mind. Not sure if that's it. Shield says HDMI 2.0.
> 
> http://shield.nvidia.com/android-tv/what-is-4k


The NVidia Shield Android TV is supposed to have HDCP 2.2, which is the 2.2 referred to by Dan. I don't know if that is required for any of the current 4K streaming services or not.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> Most of the cell phones that shoot 4k only support 30fps, so it's not true 4k. Plus who wants to buy a new TiVo just so they can watch home movies shot in 4k? Until there is either broadcast content or at the very least 4k BDs it's sole purpose is going to be for streaming services.


How would the 4K BDs be any part of any TiVo ?? If 4K going to look its best it needs more than 4K resolution, as another poster said it neede the following

1.Increased resolution
2.HDR (high dynamic ranch)
3.Increase color via the P3 standard.

Newegg has a 4K 39" HDTV for $299, I will bet it comes nowhere near the 4K spec above, most likely a 39" 720P set would have a better looking picture for the same price.
Except for some high end stuff with built in 4K streaming this (IMHO) is all hype.


----------



## atmuscarella

Just too show how we are hardly at the start of UHD TV yet:

Like the HD spec that has multiple resolutions (1080p, 1080i, & 720p) that are considered HD, UHD also has multiple resolutions (4K/2160p & 8K/4320p). So the current 4K UHD sets are effectively what a 720p set was when HD started and only the entry point to UHD.

Also along with HDR and increase color the spec addresses frame rate - which will be up to 120. So when we get fully into content being shot to meet the top end of the UHD spec we are going to have content meeting/having the following: 

8K/4320p resolution
High Dynamic Range
Increased color via P3 standard or better 
Progressive scan Frame rate of up to 120
And just to be clear there currently is no equipment, delivery method, or even a video codec that could handle video shot at the top end of the UHD spec. So we will be in a changing environment for years to come.

I do expect that things will settle down to meeting the requirements to play UHD blu-ray disks (which many existing 4K TVs can not fully meet or even do at all) for awhile but the future path is pretty clear and things will change again soon.


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> ...
> 
> Newegg has a 4K 39" HDTV for $299, I will bet it comes nowhere near the 4K spec above, most likely a 39" 720P set would have a better looking picture for the same price.
> Except for some high end stuff with built in 4K streaming this (IMHO) is all hype.


I agree with both of the above.


----------



## filovirus

It's crazy how the consumer electronics companies push to get us to pay for new technology even when standards have yet to be established. Like another poster stated, it will be several years before 4K content becomes main stream and by then, we will be ready for the next Tivo. 

Sorry Tivo, I am content to stick with 1080p and my owned lifetime Pro, Plus, and Minis for the foreseeable future.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> How would the 4K BDs be any part of any TiVo ?? If 4K going to look its best it needs more than 4K resolution, as another poster said it neede the following
> 
> 1.Increased resolution
> 2.HDR (high dynamic ranch)
> 3.Increase color via the P3 standard.
> 
> Newegg has a 4K 39" HDTV for $299, I will bet it comes nowhere near the 4K spec above, most likely a 39" 720P set would have a better looking picture for the same price.
> Except for some high end stuff with built in 4K streaming this (IMHO) is all hype.


Only $299? I wonder if that would make a good PC montior?

EDIT: It looks like it does [email protected] Since I don't really play games on the PC it might work great for a nice, large, high res, inexpensive monitor. I plan on changing up my current four monitor setup later this year and this thing might be the thing I need. I'll need to do some more research on it.


----------



## wmcbrine

lessd said:


> How would the 4K BDs be any part of any TiVo ??


Eh, you've heard of "ripping", right?


----------



## atmuscarella

filovirus said:


> It's crazy how the consumer electronics companies push to get us to pay for new technology even when standards have yet to be established. Like another poster stated, it will be several years before 4K content becomes main stream and by then, we will be ready for the next Tivo.
> 
> Sorry Tivo, I am content to stick with 1080p and my owned lifetime Pro, Plus, and Minis for the foreseeable future.


We have had the Roamio line for 2 years now. They are very good or even great DVRs no real reason for anyone who owns one to think there is any automatic need to upgrade to the next version. I mean no one buys a new computer, TV, smart phone, etc. ever year just cause the company release a slightly improved model.

That said it is good for TiVo to update their products and keep them as "fresh" as possible. After all when people do go to buy a new DVR they want to be buying current tech and a unit that has been out for 2 years gives people pause.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Well the term "ripping" also applies to CDs, and that is perfectly legal. And I would argue that ripping DVDs and Blu-rays in order to create your own personal backup in case the original disc gets scratched constitutes fair use under copyright law.


----------



## ej42137

Backing up your software qualifies as fair use; the only problem is that doing so requires defeating the encryption, which nowadays falls under the (probably unconstitutional) Patriot Act. It wouldn't be a dishonest act, only one technically prohibited by a bad law. Elle Woods could explain the difference to us.


----------



## tarheelblue32

ej42137 said:


> Backing up your software qualifies as fair use; the only problem is that doing so requires defeating the encryption, which nowadays falls under the (probably unconstitutional) Patriot Act. It wouldn't be a dishonest act, only one technically prohibited by a bad law. Elle Woods could explain the difference to us.


Well, Rosa Parks taught us that sometimes you have to break a bad law in order to change it.


----------



## lessd

wmcbrine said:


> Eh, you've heard of "ripping", right?


Yes, but as of now you can't rip a good 1080p/24 DVD and get that onto a TiVo, and it takes about 15Gb. For 1080p/24 2 hour 4K movie you may be up to some 40 to 50 Gb. I know no way you can get full BD quality of 1080p/24 onto any TiVo now. The TiVo is not used much for BD rips IMHO.
I have ripped (as a test) a BD in full 1080p/24 with 5.1 sound, a pain, takes a long time and uses too much space on a computer, but with big NAS systems I guess you could store many 1080P/24 movies.


----------



## Dan203

lessd said:


> Yes, but as of now you can't rip a good 1080p/24 DVD and get that onto a TiVo.


Why not? Are BDs too high bitrate to play on a TiVo? (I've never actually tried) The point about disc space is true though. BDs are huge and I can only imagine how big a 4k BD is going to be. I think I heard they were going to use triple layer discs which hold up to 75GB, so they're probably going to be massive.


----------



## wizwor

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well the term "ripping" also applies to CDs, and that is perfectly legal. And I would argue that ripping DVDs and Blu-rays in order to create your own personal backup in case the original disc gets scratched constitutes fair use under copyright law.


You would be incorrect. There is no argument. The Librarian of Congress decides what is exempt and backing up your media is not on the list...

http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2012/2012-26308_PI.pdf



CopyrightOffice said:


> *D. Motion pictures and other works on DVDs and other media  space shifting*
> 
> _The Register concluded that proponents had failed to establish that the prohibition on circumvention is imposing an adverse impact on noninfringing uses and declined to recommend the requested exemptions for space shifting._
> 
> Proponent Public Knowledge, as well as proponents Cassiopaea, Tambolini, Susan Fuhs, Kellie Heistand, Andy Kossowsky, and Curt Wiederhoeft, sought similar exemptions to permit the circumvention of motion pictures and other works on DVDs and other media to enable space shifting, i.e., the copying of complete works to permit personal use on alternative devices.
> 
> Proponent Public Knowledge stated a desire to move lawfully acquired motion pictures on DVDs to consumer electronic devices, such as tablet computers and laptop computers, that lack DVD drives. It asserted that consumers inability to play lawfully acquired DVDs on the newest devices adversely affected noninfringing uses of the works contained on DVDs, and that a
> reasonable solution was for these consumers to copy the motion pictures into a format that could be viewed on the new devices. Public Knowledge urged that such an exemption would merely allow a user to make use of a motion picture she has already acquired. The space shifting proposals by the additional proponents  most of which were one page or less  sought similar
> exemptions, but offered few factual details and little or no legal analysis.
> 
> The current proposals were not unlike the proposal sought in the 2006 rulemaking. In that rulemaking, the Register declined to recommend a space shifting exemption in part because the proponents failed to offer persuasive legal arguments that space shifting was a noninfringing use.
> 
> The Register also addressed space shifting in the 2003 rulemaking in her consideration of a requested exemption regarding tethering. In her 2003 recommendation, the Register observed that no court has held that space-shifting is a fair use.
> 
> Public Knowledge cited RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072 (1999), and Sony Corporation of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984), in support of its contention that space shifting is a noncommercial personal use, and therefore a fair use. It applied the four-factor fair use test of Section 107 in support of its assertion that the sort
> of space shifting for which it sought an exemption is a noninfringing use. Public Knowledge further argued that the space shifting would not negatively impact the availability of, or harm the market for, copyrighted works, or contribute to piracy. Finally, Public Knowledge claimed that there were no reasonable alternatives to such space shifting.
> 
> Public Knowledge asked the Register to evaluate the legitimacy of personal space shifting through independent examination. According to Public Knowledge, the Section 1201(a) rulemaking process of recommending, consulting, determining, and speculating necessarily requires the Register to draw conclusions beyond parroting the statute and existing case law.
> 
> Proponents of the additional proposals sought to exempt other digital works, including sound recordings and ebooks, in addition to motion pictures, for purposes of space shifting. They offered insufficient factual or legal analysis in support of their proposed exemptions, however. DVD CCA opposed the requested exemptions by first observing that, although many new electronic devices are made without DVD drives, consumers can still play DVDs on such
> devices through the use of peripheral tools, i.e., external drives that connect to the devices and are capable of playing DVDs. DVD CCA argued that just because a consumer prefers a portable device for certain purposes, it does not mean that the consumer is foreclosed from using a different device to play DVDs or that an exemption for space shifting is warranted. DVD CCA further noted that, contrary to the statements made by Public Knowledge,
> consumers have not purchased the motion picture itself, but a DVD copy of the motion picture, which affords only the right to access the work according to the DVD format specifications, i.e., through the use of a DVD player. DVD CCA explained that consumers are able to purchase the copy at its retail price  typically less than 20 dollars  because it is distributed on a specific
> medium that will only play back on a licensed player. It stated that the Register has previously recognized that there is no unqualified right to access a work on a particular device. DVD CCA alleged that the proposed exemption would harm the market for works distributed in the DVD medium as well as that for works offered in other digital media, explaining that the proposed exemption would displace sales for existing and forthcoming digital
> offerings that the DMCA was meant to encourage. It further alleged that the proposed exemption would create public confusion as to what is permitted activity. Joint Creators similarly disputed Public Knowledges assertion that consumers are adversely affected by an inability to play DVDs on electronic devices that are not designed to play DVDs, pointing to services that provide access to numerous titles for low subscription prices. They argued that it was not the purpose of the rulemaking to provide consumers with the most cost-effective manner to obtain commercial video content.
> 
> AACS LA opposed an exemption for space shifting that would apply to AACS
> technology protecting Blu-ray discs. It noted that proponents had failed to satisfy their burden to demonstrate that an exemption is warranted or that space shifting is a noninfringing act. The Register recognized that there is significant consumer interest in the proposed exemption. Proponents, however, had the burden of demonstrating that the requested use was noninfringing. Neither of the two key cases relied upon by proponents, however, addresses or informs the space shifting activities at issue. The Register noted that she had previously explained that Diamond Multimedia  a case in which the court was called upon to interpret the Audio Home Recording Act (AHRA)  did not hold that space-shifting is fair use. It did state, in dicta, that space-shifting of digital and analog musical recordings is a noncommercial personal use consistent with the Audio Home Recording Act. Notably, neither Diamond Multimedia, nor the statute it interpreted, addressed motion pictures, the focus of Public Knowledges proposal.
> Turning to Sony, the Register clarified that that case involved time-shifting, defined by the Supreme Court as the practice of recording a program to view it once at a later time, and thereafter erasing it. It did not address the legality of librarying, i.e., the maintenance of copies of copyrighted works. Here, by contrast, librarying was among the activities contemplated by the proposed exemptions. The Register further observed that the law does not guarantee access to copyrighted material in a users preferred format or technique. Indeed, copyright owners typically have the legal authority to decide whether and how to exploit new formats. The Register noted that while the law may someday evolve to accommodate some of proponents proposed uses, more recent cases touching upon space shifting confirm that the fair use implications of various forms of space shifting are far from settled. The Register reiterated her view that the Section 1201 rulemaking process was not the forum in which to break new ground on the scope of fair use. She then proceeded to assess the proposed exemptions under the traditional fair use factors. In urging that space shifting is a fair use, Public Knowledge characterized the copying of motion pictures for use on personal devices as a paradigmatic noncommercial personal use that
> could facilitate a transformative use. It further asserted that integrating reproductions of motion pictures from DVDs into a consumers media management software was analogous to the integration of thumbnail images into internet search engines found to be a transformative use in Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc., 487 F.3d 701 (9th Cir. 2007). The Register did not agree with this analysis. In her view, the incorporation of reproductions of motion pictures from DVDs into a consumers media management software is
> not equivalent to the provision of public search engine functionality. Rather, it is simply a means for an individual consumer to access content for the same entertainment purpose as the original work. Put another way, it does not add[] something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first with new expression, meaning, or advance criticism, comment, or any other interest enumerated in the preamble of Section 107. The Register therefore concluded that the first fair use factor did not favor a finding of fair use. The Register additionally determined that where creative works were being copied in their entirety, factors two and three also weighed against fair use, and that there was an inadequate basis in the record to conclude that the developing market for the online distribution of motion pictures would not be harmed by the proposed uses.
> 
> Finally, the Register concluded that proponents had failed to demonstrate that the use of a reasonably priced peripheral, a different device, or an online subscription service to access and play desired content did not offer a reasonable alternative to circumvention. Accordingly, the Register was not persuaded that the inability to engage in the space shifting activities described by proponents is having a substantial adverse impact on consumers ability to make noninfringing uses of copyrighted works. NTIA suggested what it described as a more narrowly-constructed version of Public Knowledges proposed exemption. Specifically, it supported an exemption to allow circumvention of lawfully acquired DVDs when the DVD neither contains nor is accompanied by an additional copy of the work in an alternative digital format, and when circumvention is undertaken solely in order to accomplish the noncommercial space shifting of the contained motion picture. NTIA voiced support for the motion picture industrys efforts to make content available on the wide range of new devices, and encouraged the industry to continue developing new offerings. It contended that by limiting the exemption to circumstances in which the market had not supplied alternatives to DVDs, the potential adverse effect on the market is minimal. The Register likewise expressed support for the motion picture industrys innovation and the development of market approaches to satisfy the demand for electronically distributed content. But while the Register was sympathetic to the desire to consume content on a variety of different devices, she noted that there is no basis under current law to assume that the space shifting activities that would be permitted under NTIAs proposal would be noninfringing. Moreover, in light of the record before her, the Register did not find that such activities would not adversely affect the legitimate future markets of copyright owners.


----------



## tarheelblue32

wizwor said:


> You would be incorrect. There is no argument. The Librarian of Congress decides what is exempt and backing up your media is not on the list...
> 
> http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2012/2012-26308_PI.pdf


Actually, it is the courts, not the Library of Congress, that determines what laws mean. And the only legal case that I am aware of which has spoken on this issue is Realnetworks, Inc. v. DVD Copy Control Association, and a relevant quote from that case is:

"So while it may well be fair use for an individual consumer to store a backup copy of a personally-owned DVD on that individual's computer, a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies. See Id. at 1125 ("while it is not unlawful to circumvent for the purpose of engaging in fair use, it is unlawful to traffic in tools that 943*943 allow fair use circumvention.")."

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7376626813110084749&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

While that quote does not definitively say that it is fair use to make backup copies, it certainly leaves the door open for that possibility. But I seriously doubt there will ever be a test case to determine whether or not making backup copies falls under fair use or not, since nobody is likely to ever get caught doing it. So I guess each individual just has to use his best judgment as to whether or not he considers it to be fair use or not and proceed accordingly.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Why not? Are BDs too high bitrate to play on a TiVo? (I've never actually tried) The point about disc space is true though. BDs are huge and I can only imagine how big a 4k BD is going to be. I think I heard they were going to use triple layer discs which hold up to 75GB, so they're probably going to be massive.


A UHD BD will not be larger than 100GB. They will either be two layer 50GB discs, two layer 66GB discs, or three layer 100GB discs.

The 50GB discs can have a bitrate of 88Mb/s. The 66GB discs can have a bitrate of 108Mb/s. And the 100GB discs can have a bitrate of 128Mb/s.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> Why not? Are BDs too high bitrate to play on a TiVo? (I've never actually tried) The point about disc space is true though. BDs are huge and I can only imagine how big a 4k BD is going to be. I think I heard they were going to use triple layer discs which hold up to 75GB, so they're probably going to be massive.


TiVo can't handle a recording of 1080P, only a streaming pass through, so a BD 1080P rip can't be stored on a TiVos hard drive in *full 1080P format*. If the experts know that not to be true let me know.


----------



## Dan203

lessd said:


> TiVo can't handle a recording of 1080P, only a streaming pass through, so a BD 1080P rip can't be stored on a TiVos hard drive in *full 1080P format*. If the experts know that not to be true let me know.


Oh.... forgot about that. Like I said I've never tried to rip a BD to TiVo so I wasn't sure what the limitations might be.


----------



## wizwor

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually, it is the courts, not the Library of Congress, that determines what laws mean. And the only legal case that I am aware of which has spoken on this issue is Realnetworks, Inc. v. DVD Copy Control Association, and a relevant quote from that case is:
> 
> "So while it may well be fair use for an individual consumer to store a backup copy of a personally-owned DVD on that individual's computer, a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies. See Id. at 1125 ("while it is not unlawful to circumvent for the purpose of engaging in fair use, it is unlawful to traffic in tools that 943*943 allow fair use circumvention.")."
> 
> https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7376626813110084749&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
> 
> While that quote does not definitively say that it is fair use to make backup copies, it certainly leaves the door open for that possibility. But I seriously doubt there will ever be a test case to determine whether or not making backup copies falls under fair use or not, since nobody is likely to ever get caught doing it. So I guess each individual just has to use his best judgment as to whether or not he considers it to be fair use or not and proceed accordingly.


In the case of copyright law, Congress has delegated determination of Fair Use. This allows elected officials to escape scrutiny on the matter.

You are correct that this is designed to be settled in the courts. You are also correct that none of this will ever be settled in the courts. Every case will be ruled on very specifically so as not to create precedent and, whenever possible, cases will be settled out of court. It is presumed that Big Entertainment can sue any challengers out of existence.

That does not make anything legal, of course.


----------



## atmuscarella

wizwor said:


> ...
> 
> That does not make anything legal, of course.


You have it backwards, there is no need to make anything legal, unless something is specifically illegal it is automatically legal. Also while the legislator writes laws it does not interpret them, that is what our court system does. If big Entertainment wants to claim that previous fair use decisions do not apply and that it is illegal for a person to make a backup copy of a DVD they will have to take a person to court and let the courts decide. As far as I know they have not done that, the cases I have seen all have something to do with distribution not just making a backup copy.


----------



## wmcbrine

I'm not aware of any problem with 1080p recordings. Some Blu-Rays do exceed the TiVo's maximum bitrate. But, that can be dealt with. (Note that the TiVo _can_ handle bitrates higher than broadcast. I don't remember what the exact limits are.)


----------



## tarheelblue32

wizwor said:


> In the case of copyright law, Congress has delegated determination of Fair Use. This allows elected officials to escape scrutiny on the matter.
> 
> You are correct that this is designed to be settled in the courts. You are also correct that none of this will ever be settled in the courts. Every case will be ruled on very specifically so as not to create precedent and, whenever possible, cases will be settled out of court. It is presumed that Big Entertainment can sue any challengers out of existence.
> 
> That does not make anything legal, of course.


It also does not make it illegal. Its legality is ambiguous. So it goes back to what I said previously, that in the case of ambiguous legality, it is up to each individual to decide what they want to do. You can either play it safe and avoid activity which may or may not ultimately be ruled illegal, or you can decide the reward outweighs the risk and go ahead with activity which may already be perfectly legal anyway.


----------



## Dan203

wmcbrine said:


> I'm not aware of any problem with 1080p recordings. Some Blu-Rays do exceed the TiVo's maximum bitrate. But, that can be dealt with. (Note that the TiVo _can_ handle bitrates higher than broadcast. I don't remember what the exact limits are.)


Does it actually play at 24fps or does the TiVo scale it to whatever output settings you have checked for TV programs?


----------



## wizwor

tarheelblue32 said:


> It also does not make it illegal. Its legality is ambiguous. So it goes back to what I said previously, that in the case of ambiguous legality, it is up to each individual to decide what they want to do. You can either play it safe and avoid activity which may or may not ultimately be ruled illegal, or you can decide the reward outweighs the risk and go ahead with activity which may already be perfectly legal anyway.


It isn't ambiguous. The law clearly prohibits circumvention of protection measures. Then they say there are 'fair use' exemptions which are reviewed and refined every three years by the librarian of congress. As of the last couple reviews, circumventing for place shifting is not considered fair use.


----------



## tarheelblue32

wizwor said:


> It isn't ambiguous. The law clearly prohibits circumvention of protection measures. Then they say there are 'fair use' exemptions which are reviewed and refined every three years by the librarian of congress. As of the last couple reviews, circumventing for place shifting is not considered fair use.


As far as fair use is concerned, Congress may have delegated statutory fair use determinations to the Library of Congress, but there is also the common law fair use doctrine which the courts can also use if they so choose to make this activity perfectly legal. We don't know for sure if the common law fair use doctrine applies to this case, since it has never been tested in court. Therefore, it is a legally ambiguous area.

Also, courts have review powers over administrative law like what the Library of Congress determines to be statutory fair use, and they could potentially strike those laws down also. But, again, there would have to be a test case to determine whether or not these laws are enforceable against individuals.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> TiVo can't handle a recording of 1080P, only a streaming pass through, so a BD 1080P rip can't be stored on a TiVos hard drive in *full 1080P format*. If the experts know that not to be true let me know.


The TiVo used to be able to handle Amazon 1080P downloads. Before they eliminated downloading early this year. Of course the bit rate was only around 10Mb/s H.264 while a BD could be more than four times that.

EDIT: I forgot I had some 1080P60 E3 videos with 5.1 audio. They play fine on the TiVo with a bitrate of 32Mb/s.


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> Does it actually play at 24fps or does the TiVo scale it to whatever output settings you have checked for TV programs?


1080p24 is a supported output resolution on the Premiere and Roamio. (The Roamio can also do 1080p60.) Personally I just use a fixed resolution (1080i on Premiere, 1080p60 on Roamio).


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> The TiVo used to be able to handle Amazon 1080P downloads. Before they eliminated downloading early this year. Of course the bit rate was only around 10Mb/s H.264 while a BD could be more than four times that. EDIT: I forgot I had some 1080P60 E3 videos with 5.1 audio. They play fine on the TiVo with a bitrate of 32Mb/s.


Actually I got an email a few days ago saying you can download Amazon Prime:


----------



## aaronwt

HarperVision said:


> Actually I got an email a few days ago saying you can download Amazon Prime:


Those are just downloads to your phone or tablet aren't they? Not to the TiVo?

I tried it on my phone earlier this week and it wouldn't let me download it over a cellular connection. It says that since it was over 50MB in size I needed to use WiFi. I have unlimited data so I don't understand why they should decide what I want to download. I should be able to make that decision, not Amazon. But unfortunately I guess they need to treat their users like children.

That day I uploaded two UHD videos from my cell phone to the cloud that were 2GB in size over Verizon Wireless. At over 25Mb/s speeds. That Amazon movie download wouldn't have been a problem for me over my cellular connection. Yet Amazon thinks anything over 50MB is large.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> Those are just downloads to your phone or tablet aren't they? Not to the TiVo? I tried it on my phone earlier this week and it wouldn't let me download it over a cellular connection. It says that since it was over 50MB in size I needed to use WiFi. I have unlimited data so I don't understand why they should decide what I want to download. I should be able to make that decision, not Amazon. But unfortunately I guess they need to treat their users like children. That day I uploaded two UHD videos from my cell phone to the cloud that were 2GB in size over Verizon Wireless. At over 25Mb/s speeds. That Amazon movie download wouldn't have been a problem for me over my cellular connection. Yet Amazon thinks anything over 50MB is large.


Yeah probably. I don't really use that feature so not sure how useful it is. Good catch, thanks!


----------



## Dan203

wmcbrine said:


> 1080p24 is a supported output resolution on the Premiere and Roamio. (The Roamio can also do 1080p60.) Personally I just use a fixed resolution (1080i on Premiere, 1080p60 on Roamio).


It's a "pass through" resolution. So I wasn't sure if it only worked with apps or if it also worked with content stored on the HDD.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> It's a "pass through" resolution. So I wasn't sure if it only worked with apps or if it also worked with content stored on the HDD.


It's not a pass through resolution on the Roamio. The Roamio should be applying 3:2 pulldown and will output 1080P24 content as 1080P60. If you have the output set that way. WHich is how I have all my Roamios set. Although My Minis are set for 1080i output with 1080P24 pass through since the Mini can't output 1080P60.


----------



## mrsean

I've been around for quite a few tivo impending product launches and I have to say that this one so far as been the most shrouded in mystery. Usually the entertainment media have weekly leak about the new Tivo's features up until reveal, but as of now their and our only source seems to be Zatz.


----------



## krkaufman

mrsean said:


> Usually the entertainment media have weekly leak about the new Tivo's features up until reveal, but as of now their and our only source seems to be Zatz.


Maybe they're just trying to punk Dave. That would not be funny.


----------



## NashGuy

TiVo has their quarterly earnings call with investors this afternoon at 5E/2P. Wonder if anything about Bolt will be revealed?


----------



## Dan203

mrsean said:


> I've been around for quite a few tivo impending product launches and I have to say that this one so far as been the most shrouded in mystery. Usually the entertainment media have weekly leak about the new Tivo's features up until reveal, but as of now their and our only source seems to be Zatz.


Not really. The last few releases they all had some sort of timed NDA so they couldn't release any information or reviews until a specific day/time. Once that time hit then we'd see a dozen or more reviews all pop up at once. I think Dave use to be part of that whole process but had a bit of a falling out with TiVo and hasn't been included in the last couple product releases.


----------



## NashGuy

From the financial guidance section of today's TiVo press release announce quarterly results:

_Included in the third quarter Adjusted EBITDA excluding litigation expense and Net Income guidance is *approximately $5 million of increased TiVo-Owned subscription acquisition spend as we both market a new product*, which will be launching in the third quarter, and anticipate increased hardware loss from higher unit sales._


----------



## tarheelblue32

So it looks like a September launch for the Bolt after all.


----------



## NashGuy

tarheelblue32 said:


> So it looks like a September launch for the Bolt then.


That was my thought at first as well but then I realized it was a reference to TiVo's fiscal third quarter, which would be Aug. 1 through Oct. 31. So it's possible that Bolt won't launch until next month. As always, though, I'm betting it's sooner rather than later.


----------



## Dan203

I figured it would be out by now. I wonder if they hit some sort of snag in the beta that caused it to get delayed. Didn't that happen with the Mini?


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I figured it would be out by now. I wonder if they hit some sort of snag in the beta that caused it to get delayed. Didn't that happen with the Mini?


Yeah, we were able to buy Mini before it was announced and before the coverage hit. Ha. Not sure if we're delayed here or not - start pestering your Best Buy reps to find out what they have in the back or when this is supposed to arrived...


----------



## lessd

wmcbrine said:


> I'm not aware of any problem with 1080p recordings. Some Blu-Rays do exceed the TiVo's maximum bitrate. But, that can be dealt with. (Note that the TiVo _can_ handle bitrates higher than broadcast. I don't remember what the exact limits are.)


I was not talking about bitrates, but recording on a TiVo hard drive in 1080P I did not think possible, as the output of TiVos hard drive electronics I though was 1080i max, if that is not correct let us know.


----------



## keenanSR

davezatz said:


> Yeah, we were able to buy Mini before it was announced and before the coverage hit. Ha. Not sure if we're delayed here or not - start pestering your Best Buy reps to find out what they have in the back or when this is supposed to arrived...


Talked to my MagHiFi guy a few days ago and he said there's nothing new being listed yet. He also said that there does not appear to be any more purchase orders being created for the current line of DVRs and that behavior almost always means the product is being discontinued; what's currently in stock is it, no more coming. FWIW.


----------



## aaronwt

lessd said:


> I was not talking about bitrates, but recording on a TiVo hard drive in 1080P I did not think possible, as the output of TiVos hard drive electronics I though was 1080i max, if that is not correct let us know.


It is not correct. I can already load a 1080P60 file onto the TiVo and play it without issues. The files I tried were MPEG4 files with a bitrate of around 32Mb/s. The Roamio line has always been able to output in 1080P.

EDIT: And I just tried some 1080P Transport Stream files. Those were fine too.


----------



## HarperVision

Could they have possibly worked with this company to get this new DVR to market and also used the name as a "placeholder" until official release?

Makes sense since they got rid of all their engineering staff shortly after the Roamio's release, right, by using this third party company for Venture Capital, Prototyping and Testing?

I found it through a Cisco link while searching for "TiVo Bolt" on Google.

Maybe TiVo wanted a total shift in the way they do things and really go for it with the new product they're soon offering?


----------



## jonw747

HarperVision said:


> Could they have possibly worked with this company to get this new DVR to market and also used the name as a "placeholder" until official release?
> 
> Makes sense since they got rid of all their engineering staff shortly after the Roamio's release, right, by using this third party company for Venture Capital, Prototyping and Testing?
> 
> I found it through a Cisco link while searching for "TiVo Bolt" on Google.
> 
> Maybe TiVo wanted a total shift in the way they do things and really go for it with the new product they're soon offering?


Could just be a coincidence, but if the Bolt is being designed outside the house I'm going to be more inclined to wait & see how it goes.


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> Could they have possibly worked with this company to get this new DVR to market and also used the name as a "placeholder" until official release?
> 
> Makes sense since they got rid of all their engineering staff shortly after the Roamio's release, right, by using this third party company for Venture Capital, Prototyping and Testing?
> 
> I found it through a Cisco link while searching for "TiVo Bolt" on Google.
> 
> Maybe TiVo wanted a total shift in the way they do things and really go for it with the new product they're soon offering?


I think someone posted a link recently showing that TiVo applied for a registered trademark for the name TiVo Bolt, so they definitely intend to use that name for something. Also that screen shot from that web page seemed to have a logo design for the name Bolt as well. So I'm pretty sure the next TiVo is going to be called Bolt. (we had similar disbelief when we originally heard the name Roamio, assuming it was just a code name)


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> I think someone posted a link recently showing that TiVo applied for a registered trademark for the name TiVo Bolt, so they definitely intend to use that name for something. Also that screen shot from that web page seemed to have a logo design for the name Bolt as well. So I'm pretty sure the next TiVo is going to be called Bolt. (we had similar disbelief when we originally heard the name Roamio, assuming it was just a code name)


True, but maybe they intend to call it Bolt since they worked so heavily with this company called Bolt? I guess we won't know until it's released? #impatient


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> It is not correct. I can already load a 1080P60 file onto the TiVo and play it without issues. The files I tried were MPEG4 files with a bitrate of around 32Mb/s. The Roamio line has always been able to output in 1080P.
> 
> EDIT: And I just tried some 1080P Transport Stream files. Those were fine too.


So you recorded onto a TiVo hard drive a recording that when played came out of the TiVo at 1080P/60, your TV said the HDMI output from that TiVo recording was 1080P/60 going into the TV. That being true, that is great !


----------



## b_scott

lessd said:


> Newegg has a 4K 39" HDTV for $299, I will bet it comes nowhere near the 4K spec above, most likely a 39" 720P set would have a better looking picture for the same price.
> Except for some high end stuff with built in 4K streaming this (IMHO) is all hype.


word. Pixels aren't everything. I'm willing to wager a calibrated Pioneer Kuro 720p from 2008 can look better than some current 1080p LCD's.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> It is not correct. I can already load a 1080P60 file onto the TiVo and play it without issues. The files I tried were MPEG4 files with a bitrate of around 32Mb/s. The Roamio line has always been able to output in 1080P.
> 
> EDIT: And I just tried some 1080P Transport Stream files. Those were fine too.


The real question is if you load a 1080p/24 file will it play out at 24fps or will the TiVo up sample it to 60fps? Does the 1080p/24 pass through mode work for files on the hard drive, or only for apps?


----------



## HarperVision

b_scott said:


> word. Pixels aren't everything. I'm willing to wager a calibrated Pioneer Kuro 720p from 2008 can look better than some current 1080p LCD's.


I'd put money on that wager with you b_scott, I've seen and done it first hand!


----------



## jcthorne

Dan203 said:


> The real question is if you load a 1080p/24 file will it play out at 24fps or will the TiVo up sample it to 60fps? Does the 1080p/24 pass through mode work for files on the hard drive, or only for apps?


It works for files stored on the hard drive. Even the Premieres support 1080p24. 1080p60 was new for Roamio.

Been doing this for years via Pytivo.


----------



## Series3Sub

I think TiVo may wait to announce Bolt when they've cleared enough of the Roamio inventory, but they certainly would want Bolt released early enough to meet Christmas buying season. If they can clear out enough Roamios, we could see Bolt by the end of this month, but if not, I am thinking no later than the end of October.


----------



## lessd

jcthorne said:


> It works for files stored on the hard drive. Even the Premieres support 1080p24. 1080p60 was new for Roamio.
> 
> Been doing this for years via Pytivo.


Just to be clear, you HDTV will show a 1080p/60 as its input from a recording on the Roamios hard drive, if so this is good news, and what video setting do you set the Roamio as the highest one is 1080i with 1080p as only a pass through. If you have a 1080p/60 recording on the Roamio and set only the 720P in the video does the output change to 720P, if so what video setting changes the output to 1080p/60.


----------



## JoeKustra

lessd said:


> Just to be clear, you HDTV will show a 1080p/60 as its input from a recording on the Roamios hard drive, if so this is good news, and what video setting do you set the Roamio as the highest one is 1080i with 1080p as only a pass through. If you have a 1080p/60 recording on the Roamio and set only the 720P in the video does the output change to 720P, if so what video setting changes the output to 1080p/60.


I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but the Roamio does allow 1080p/60fps as an output. I will also allow 1080p/24fps output from any content, but I wouldn't do that. It looked really bad on my TV. I leave it at 1080i and 1080p (pass through). This works best for my TV, yours may be different.


----------



## wmcbrine

I don't know where you guys got this idea -- it's _not_ implied by "pass-through" -- but there's no rational basis for expecting apps to have access to resolutions or frame rates that regular playback doesn't. If anything, it's the apps that are limited (e.g. only 720p for Plex).


----------



## JoeKustra

I find it amazing that we're starting a fourth page of discussion that has nothing to do with the Bolt. Today is the 9th. Isn't that supposed to be THE day?


----------



## Dan203

The reason we want 1080p/24 output, and BluRays use it, is because movies are shot at 24fps. With 1080p/60 they have to use a 3:2 display pattern because 24 is not a direct multiple of 60. What this means is that they display one frame for 3 ticks of the clock, then the next for 2 ticks, then the next for 3, and so on. This every other frame duration change can cause a judder, especially in slow pans. TVs with a 120Hz refresh rate or higher are direct multiples of 24 so they can display 24fps with a consistent frame duration eliminating the judder.

On TiVo the 1080p/24 mode is "pass through" only. You can not set the TiVo to always output 1080p/24 like you can with 1080p/60 or 1080i. I wasn't sure if content stored on the hard drive could be output at it's native 1080p/24 or if the "pass through" option only worked for apps. It sounds like it works for stuff on the hard drive too so that question has been answered.


----------



## JoeKustra

Dan203 said:


> On TiVo the 1080p/24 mode is "pass through" only. You can not set the TiVo to always output 1080p/24 like you can with 1080p/60 or 1080i. I wasn't sure if content stored on the hard drive could be output at it's native 1080p/24 or if the "pass through" option only worked for apps. It sounds like it works for stuff on the hard drive too so that question has been answered.


I agree with your sentiment, but you can set the Roamio to 1080p/24fps ONLY. That will cause all output to be 24fps, and it will look really bad. It shouldn't do that, but it does. Try it. Just uncheck everything but the last 1080p (pass-thru only) and give it three thumbs up, then continue. My AVR says I just changed its input from 1080i/60 to 1080p/24. My TV screen has the jitters. Then go back and set it to what you prefer.


----------



## Dan203

That sounds like a bug. You shouldn't be able to do that. The option specifically says pass through only.


----------



## jonw747

1080p24 content distributed in 1080i30 format can be converted back to 1080p24 by reversing the sequence that was used to convert the video. My TV handled that automatically, so I always used to use Native output from my old DVR's.

With my Roamio, I've been using 1080p60 and 1080p24 passthrough, but perhaps I should experiment a bit and see if movies look any better if I enabled 1080i.


----------



## JoeKustra

jonw747 said:


> 1080p24 content distributed in 1080i30 format can be converted back to 1080p24 by reversing the sequence that was used to convert the video. My TV handled that automatically, so I always used to use Native output from my old DVR's.
> 
> With my Roamio, I've been using 1080p60 and 1080p24 passthrough, but perhaps I should experiment a bit and see if movies look any better if I enabled 1080i.


For Amazon movies the 24fps looks great. For TV I leave it at 1080i. My TV, since it's a TV, seems to handle the conversion to its native 1080p better. But your eyes are the final judge.


----------



## HarperVision

jonw747 said:


> 1080p24 content distributed in 1080i30 format can be converted back to 1080p24 by reversing the sequence that was used to convert the video. My TV handled that automatically, so I always used to use Native output from my old DVR's. With my Roamio, I've been using 1080p60 and 1080p24 passthrough, *but perhaps I should experiment a bit and see if movies look any better if I enabled 1080i.*


As stated, movies are shot at 24 fps, so 1080p24 (or a multiple thereof as Dan stated) is your best option there. Why totally mess with the frame rate going from the native progressive one to an interlaced, uneven cadence? It makes no sense.


----------



## aaronwt

1080P24 ouput only makes sense when you have a display that is capable of showing a framerate at a multiple of 24. Otherwise it's just a matter of which device does a better job of the 3:2 pulldown. The TiVo, the receiver/video processor, or the TV. Personally my Roamios are all set for 1080P60 output. But my Minis are set for 1080i and 1080P24 output since there is no 1080P60 option.


----------



## jonw747

JoeKustra said:


> For Amazon movies the 24fps looks great. For TV I leave it at 1080i. My TV, since it's a TV, seems to handle the conversion to its native 1080p better. But your eyes are the final judge.


I wouldn't want 720p60 content being converted to 1080i30, though, so that's just another trade off.

If I could see the same video side by side, maybe I'd be able to spot the difference, but I doubt I would just switching back & forth; so maybe I'll just stick with 1080p60 with the 1080p24 passthrough enabled.


----------



## jonw747

aaronwt said:


> 1080P24 ouput only makes sense when you have a display that is capable of showing a framerate at a multiple of 24. Otherwise it's just a matter of which device does a better job of the 3:2 pulldown. The TiVo, the receiver/video processor, or the TV.


Understood, and I do. Back when I bought my TV, not many supported p24 and even fewer could properly detect and convert film based 1080i content back in to 1080p24. In fact, it's an option on my TV because there's a chance it can be fooled in to thinking that it's seeing film based content when it isn't.


----------



## HarperVision

Could this statement by TiVo's Jeff Klugman be a hint and unintended confirmation that the Bolt will provide a "Voice Search" feature, through the remote I would guess.



> _Jeff Klugman, EVP and general manager of products and revenues for TiVo, said "I don't know" when questioned whether the company would build a TiVo app for the Apple TV. *Klugman also pointed out that TiVo offers a number of the same features as Apple TV, including universal, voice-powered search. *But he noted that Apple TV has "not yet integrated the linear television experience" as TiVo has._


Does he just mean maybe the smart device apps we currently have, or is there something I'm missing?


----------



## Dan203

Maybe the next remote will have a mic? Seems like a silly gimmick to me. I'm not a big fan of talking to technology.

I'd much rather then have some sort of app store or at least a faster way to add desired apps like HBOGo and ShowTime AnyTime.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Maybe the next remote will have a mic? Seems like a silly gimmick to me. I'm not a big fan of talking to technology.
> 
> I'd much rather then have some sort of app store or at least a faster way to add desired apps like HBOGo and ShowTime AnyTime.


They could also do it in the app to bring to units without a remote mic, as Roku has done. But, yeah, I don't find voice very useful for search. Could come in hand for launching apps, tho.


----------



## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> They could also do it in the app to bring to units without a remote mic, as Roku has done. But, yeah, I don't find voice very useful for search. Could come in hand for launching apps, tho.


Could come in *REAL* handy for voice recognition, allowing me quick access to my TiVo user profile and all my user-specific settings (*MY* shows, my watch progress, my app authentication credentials, etc.).


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> I'm not a big fan of talking to technology.


Me neither, but I bet the next generation will find it perfectly natural.


----------



## NashGuy

Well, another Tuesday and no Bolt. Maybe next Tues, the 22nd. Someone on this forum said a TiVo CSR told him the current sale on Roamios will end next Mon., the 21st.


----------



## thefisch

Dan203 said:


> Maybe the next remote will have a mic?


No wonder they are giving the slide remotes away with purchases. Making room for the new remotes with a mic.


----------



## aaronwt

wmcbrine said:


> Me neither, but I bet the next generation will find it perfectly natural.


I already find it much easier. I'm using Cortana every day now and using voice search instead of typing it in since it is quicker for me. Plus I use my Echos regularly and I'm using voice for Google on my tablets and phone to search more often as well. For me it's about getting results faster than if I typed. Plus they are all very accurate with speech recognition.


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> I already find it much easier. I'm using Cortana every day now and using voice search instead of typing it in since it is quicker for me. Plus I use my Echos regularly and I'm using voice for Google on my tablets and phone to search more often as well. For me it's about getting results faster than if I typed. Plus they are all very accurate with speech recognition.


Pushing one to 4 buttons is much different than a search, it you have to type in an E-mail or password speech would be better, but with TiVo that only happens a few times, like when you first sign into say Netflix.


----------



## snerd

wmcbrine said:


> Me neither, but I bet the next generation will find it perfectly natural.


Why? The next generation won't even use their cell phones to talk to each other.

They'll want TiVoText...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Dan203 said:


> Maybe the next remote will have a mic? Seems like a silly gimmick to me. I'm not a big fan of talking to technology.
> 
> I'd much rather then have some sort of app store or at least a faster way to add desired apps like HBOGo and ShowTime AnyTime.





davezatz said:


> They could also do it in the app to bring to units without a remote mic, as Roku has done. But, yeah, I don't find voice very useful for search. Could come in hand for launching apps, tho.


I used to feel the same way until I used a Fire TV to search for movies instead of typing in the name. It really is a great feature.


----------



## pfiagra

thefisch said:


> No wonder they are giving the slide remotes away with purchases. Making room for the new remotes with a mic.


Will the new remote be compatible or fully usable with Roamios and older units? I wonder?


----------



## davezatz

davezatz said:


> They could also do it in the app to bring to units without a remote mic, as Roku has done. But, yeah, I don't find voice very useful for search. Could come in hand for launching apps, tho.


Well... looks like they've at least tested voice recognition via app.


----------



## jonw747

lessd said:


> Pushing one to 4 buttons is much different than a search, it you have to type in an E-mail or password speech would be better, but with TiVo that only happens a few times, like when you first sign into say Netflix.


TiVo can already search across numerous services and pressing 1 to 4 buttons doesn't always get it done when there's so much more than just movies and tv shows to search.

Certainly many people don't like talking to their devices, but that's changing as those devices become more accurate and more prevalent.

Voice isn't a necessity for TiVo, but I'd welcome it as an addition - even moreso if they came up with a macro programmable universal remote.


----------



## HarperVision

davezatz said:


> Well... looks like they've at least tested voice recognition via app.


Does that mean it's voice search only through your Android phone (and probably iPhone)?

What are they talking about with the launch of the "DOCSIS Network Gateway"?


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> What are they talking about with the launch of the "DOCSIS Network Gateway"?


I'm assuming it's similar to what Comcast is working on, building the tuning/recording capabilities into an all-in-one gateway device, sans video output, with client devices required at any viewing locations. I'm also assuming it's something they worked on for some provider, and not something we'll see available via retail.


----------



## tatergator1

HarperVision said:


> What are they talking about with the launch of the "DOCSIS Network Gateway"?


It would suggest to me that they have may be partnering with one or more MSO's to provide a gateway device to cut out CableCards and TA's by providing a more direct, IP based interface device so the Tivo can better interact with the MSO's system. At least that's my maybe not so WAG.


----------



## Kremlar

Still waiting for an announcement! I'm tempted to pull the trigger on the Roamio deal and some Minis, but was hoping to find out what Bolt was all about first....


----------



## wmcbrine

snerd said:


> Why? The next generation won't even use their cell phones to talk to each other.
> 
> They'll want TiVoText...


Text for people
Voice for machines 

My (79 y.o.) mother dictates her text messages (using voice recognition on the phone). True story.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> I'm assuming it's similar to what Comcast is working on, building the tuning/recording capabilities into an all-in-one gateway device, sans video output, with client devices required at any viewing locations. I'm also assuming it's something they worked on for some provider, and not something we'll see available via retail.





tatergator1 said:


> It would suggest to me that they have may be partnering with one or more MSO's to provide a gateway device to cut out CableCards and TA's by providing a more direct, IP based interface device so the Tivo can better interact with the MSO's system. At least that's my maybe not so WAG.


These were my thoughts too when I read it, but I couldn't recall seeing anything that qualified as a "gateway" by TiVo, so was surprised that Dave Zatz didn't mentioned anything about that.

Or maybe I just missed something?  (which happens a lot!) 



wmcbrine said:


> Text for people
> Voice for machines
> 
> My (79 y.o.) mother dictates her text messages (using voice recognition on the phone). True story.


I do that while I'm driving so I don't text and drive.


----------



## HarperVision

Kremlar said:


> Still waiting for an announcement! I'm tempted to pull the trigger on the Roamio deal and some Minis, but was hoping to find out what Bolt was all about first....


That will be on Tuesday Sep 22. (My WAG)


----------



## Kremlar

> That will be on Tuesday Sep 22. (My WAG)


Hah, probably! I don't think I'll be able to resist the refurb Roamio deal and will likely get one towards the end of this week. If the Bolt comes out and is attractive perhaps I'll sell the Roamio or move it to a different room.

My biggest concern is that the Minis will be replaced, since I'd likely be buying 3 or 4 to go with my Roamio.


----------



## krkaufman

Kremlar said:


> My biggest concern is that the Minis will be replaced, since I'd likely be buying 3 or 4 to go with my Roamio.


It *would* seem odd to have a 4K TiVo absent a 4K-capable Mini.


----------



## keenanSR

krkaufman said:


> It *would* seem odd to have a 4K TiVo absent a 4K-capable Mini.


Very odd, if not announced at the same time as the Bolt you have to figure it would be very soon afterwards, within a few months at most.


----------



## atmuscarella

krkaufman said:


> It *would* seem odd to have a 4K TiVo absent a 4K-capable Mini.





keenanSR said:


> Very odd, if not announced at the same time as the Bolt you have to figure it would be very soon afterwards, within a few months at most.


Not sure it would be odd at all. We are at the very beginning of 4K/UHD most people are not going to have multiple 4K/UHD TVs right now and there is nothing for 4K TiVo to record in 4K right now, so nothing to send to a mini in 4K. So all we are talking about is streaming (and hopefully downloading 4K services) services like Netflix & Amazon.

My guess it really depends on how much it will add to the cost of a mini how soon they will update the current mini as I am guessing they will not have multiple mini models.


----------



## Dan203

Since there is currently no 4K content to actually record it's not that odd there is no 4K Mini. The only reason we really need a 4K Mini would be to stream recorded shows that are in the 4K/H.265 format that current Mini's don't support. Since Minis are typically attached to secondary TVs which are unlikely to be 4k capable anyway, upgrading them just so they can support 4K apps seems like a bit of a waste.


----------



## Kremlar

> It *would* seem odd to have a 4K TiVo absent a 4K-capable Mini.


4K itself would not be of much interest to me right now, but the added power the boxes would likely have to accomplish 4K would be of interest assuming you see benefits elsewhere (UI response, apps, etc..).

I may buy a refurb Roamio and wait a couple of weeks before I order the Minis just in case...

Argh! Don't know what to do.


----------



## HarperVision

Kremlar said:


> 4K itself would not be of much interest to me right now, but the added power the boxes would likely have to accomplish 4K would be of interest assuming you see benefits elsewhere (UI response, apps, etc..).
> 
> I may buy a refurb Roamio and wait a couple of weeks before I order the Minis just in case...
> 
> Argh! Don't know what to do.


You have a 30 day money back guarantee and I'm sure the Bolt will be announced within that time frame, so GO FOR IT!!!


----------



## krkaufman

atmuscarella said:


> there is nothing for 4K TiVo to record in 4K right now, so nothing to send to a mini in 4K. So all we are talking about is streaming (and hopefully downloading 4K services) services like Netflix & Amazon.


Yeah, I guess when the Mini can stream Netflix, Amazon, etc, a 4K Mini might make sense. 

The case for a 4K Mini is nearly as good as for a 4K DVR, perhaps even better given the price to gain the capability would be lower and more competitive with other 4K-capable streaming devices.


----------



## Dan203

That could be a reason they don't do it. They may want to force you to buy a full blown TiVo box to get 4K streaming rather then a $150 Mini.


----------



## krkaufman

Dave's at it again...

TiVo Bolt To Feature Flat UI & HD Settings

No one leaks quite like TiVo... as the forthcoming TiVo Bolt has just shown up in a number of YouTube videos that seemingly document time to launch, play, etc for the developers. ...​


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Eeesh, that TSN is in plain view. They are so F'ed in the A. 

Interesting new white/blue palette.


----------



## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> Dave's at it again...
> 
> TiVo Bolt To Feature Flat UI & HD Settings
> 
> No one leaks quite like TiVo... as the forthcoming TiVo Bolt has just shown up in a number of YouTube videos that seemingly document time to launch, play, etc for the developers. ...​


Notice also that the video embedded at the bottom of Dave's post indicates the PLEX app has been upgraded to the main screen, along w/ the other streaming services. I won't hold my breath that they've integrated it into OnePass, but it's a step.

edit2: p.s. The PLEX launch point on TiVo Central is visible only during the 8-12s window at the start of the video.

edit3: Screenshot...







---
edit.p.s. Given the emphasis on 4K and UI experience, I'm starting to wonder if "Bolt" isn't just about speed, rather than cloud/streaming services. And maybe the processing capabilities in the Bolt is what will be needed to support 1080+ in the PLEX app.


----------



## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> Dave's at it again...
> 
> TiVo Bolt To Feature Flat UI & HD Settings
> 
> No one leaks quite like TiVo... as the forthcoming TiVo Bolt has just shown up in a number of YouTube videos that seemingly document time to launch, play, etc for the developers. ...​


Also, the software version in the embedded video is 20.5.4.M1-*, so isn't this likely to be the next TiVo software release?

edit.s. To be specific, the software version is listed as: 20.5.4.M1-USC-11-849.

Screenshot:


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Good catch re: Plex.

Yeah, I believe the XL4 and Roamios launched with what became the fall software for everybody else. Probably the same thing here unless Roamios are suddenly EOL'ed, which I doubt.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Also, the software version in the embedded video is 20.5.4.M1-*, so isn't this likely to be the next TiVo software release?


Maybe the "M1" at the end means it's going to have an M1 Slingbox embedded into it instead of the crappy streaming they have now?


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> Maybe the "M1" at the end means it's going to have an M1 Slingbox embedded into it instead of the crappy streaming they have now?


Why not, and it would go hand-in-hand w/ inclusion of SlingTV.


----------



## HarperVision

krkaufman said:


> Why not, and it would go hand-in-hand w/ inclusion of SlingTV.


I'd rather have their own OTT Streaming Service from Comcast Wholesale or the NCTC (as mentioned in other threads), or at worst PS Vue. SlingTV doesn't have good DVR features, unless of course they can get authorization to have the Bolt record the streams, but I don't see that since the content providers aren't allowing it in their native SlingTV app already.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I'd rather have their own OTT Streaming Service from Comcast Wholesale or the NCTC (as mentioned in other threads), or at worst PS Vue. SlingTV doesn't have good DVR features, unless of course they can get authorization to have the Bolt record the streams, but I don't see that since the content providers aren't allowing it in their native SlingTV app already.


(pssst... I couldn't care about SlingTV, either; I was just going w/ the "maybe DISH M1" flow.)


----------



## trip1eX

i am getting that new shiny urge that says sell your Roamio now to get max dollar and upgrade to the Bolt when it comes out.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> i am getting that new shiny urge that says sell your Roamio now to get max dollar and upgrade to the Bolt when it comes out.


I'll wait. For all I know they will switch to 2.5" hard drives with the Bolt.


----------



## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> i am getting that new shiny urge that says sell your Roamio now to get max dollar and upgrade to the Bolt when it comes out.


That we can agree on!


----------



## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> I'll wait. For all I know they will switch to 2.5" hard drives with the Bolt.


Maybe for the OTA model; but I'd actually expect them to start adding direct support for 6TB, as they inch towards 4K recording.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> I'll wait. For all I know they will switch to 2.5" hard drives with the Bolt.


I think that might actually be the case. If you look at the screen it says it only hold 58 hours of HD. A Roamio Basic holds 75 hours on a 500GB drive. So that means the Bolt only has like a 320GB drive. As far as I can tell the only drives still being made that small are 2.5".

Now I assume this is probably a screen shot from the Aereo or Basic unit, and that the Pro one with 4K will likely have a much bigger drive. However they make 2.5" drives up to 3TB now, so it might still use the same form factor.


----------



## ej42137

Dan203 said:


> I think that might actually be the case. If you look at the screen it says it only hold 58 hours of HD. A Roamio Basic holds 75 hours on a 500GB drive. So that means the Bolt only has like a 320GB drive. As far as I can tell the only drives still being made that small are 2.5".
> 
> Now I assume this is probably a screen shot from the Aereo or Basic unit, and that the Pro one with 4K will likely have a much bigger drive. However they make 2.5" drives up to 3TB now, so it might still use the same form factor.


Since this is a test machine, I would guess that the reason they're using such a small drive is so they can quickly test its behaviors when it fills up.


----------



## trip1eX

aaronwt said:


> I'll wait. For all I know they will switch to 2.5" hard drives with the Bolt.


Oh I'll probably wait too. But I couldn't deny that new and shiny still makes me think about buying.

and that's even though I can't see anything they can do to dramatically improve my recording experience that they couldn't do on the Roamio. It's mostly about refining their UI for me. Perhaps a remote refresh. Improved guide data. And for sports...smart tech that automatically captures sporting events that run long or are rain-delayed etc. More frequent tickmarks for sports recordings too. Trying to fast forward thru an 8 hr long US Open recording is aggravating. All that stuff and more could be done on the Roamio.

IN the end all I really do is record cable tv and watch it. I either set a season pass or record from guide. Then I hit play and ff, rw or pause.

I rarely do anything else on the Tivo. I don't think I need a (new) machine to do that. Refinement of the software that exists would be welcome.


----------



## trip1eX

btw I can see the Mini experience being dramatically improved. Some steps in its UI is different from the Roamio. YOu can't go back to the menus without losing your picture/sound too. 

Not sure if that requires a more robust dvr or a more robust Mini or both or ...?


----------



## jcthorne

krkaufman said:


> Notice also that the video embedded at the bottom of Dave's post indicates the PLEX app has been upgraded to the main screen, along w/ the other streaming services. I won't hold my breath that they've integrated it into OnePass, but it's a step.
> 
> edit2: p.s. The PLEX launch point on TiVo Central is visible only during the 8-12s window at the start of the video.
> 
> edit3: Screenshot...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> edit.p.s. Given the emphasis on 4K and UI experience, I'm starting to wonder if "Bolt" isn't just about speed, rather than cloud/streaming services. And maybe the processing capabilities in the Bolt is what will be needed to support 1080+ in the PLEX app.


Yep they moved PLEX up from Music and Photos which never really made sense to Find Shows with the other streaming services. Good move.

The UI does seem much snappier and may indeed be what plex needs for full blown support.

The better UI experience and better PLEX integration would be reason enough for me to be buying one and selling one of our older machines.


----------



## jcthorne

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Good catch re: Plex.
> 
> Yeah, I believe the XL4 and Roamios launched with what became the fall software for everybody else. Probably the same thing here unless Roamios are suddenly EOL'ed, which I doubt.


Premieres EOL'ed perhaps, not Roamios. And likely not either as Tivo has too many of both in MSO hands.


----------



## Kremlar

Definitely holding off my purchase until the Bolt is released.


----------



## trip1eX

Maybe Tivo should separate the tuners from the rest of the box. Maybe even the hard drive should be separate.

So the consumer doesn't have to pay for tuners again if they already have perfectly good working tuners. Similar thing with the hard drive.


----------



## tarheelblue32

trip1eX said:


> Maybe Tivo should separate the tuners from the rest of the box. Maybe even the hard drive should be separate.
> 
> So the consumer doesn't have to pay for tuners again if they already have perfectly good working tuners. Similar thing with the hard drive.


TiVo makes a finished product, not a build-your-own-DVR kit. TiVo's main problem is that it is already too complicated for the average person to set up. Adding more layers of complexity is the wrong direction.


----------



## bearcat2000

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo makes a finished product, not a build-your-own-DVR kit. TiVo's main problem is that it is already too complicated for the average person to set up. Adding more layers of complexity is the wrong direction.


The CableCard is the thing that makes it difficult, and obviously the cable companies want it that way. The rest is smooth sailing.


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> Maybe Tivo should separate the tuners from the rest of the box. Maybe even the hard drive should be separate.
> 
> So the consumer doesn't have to pay for tuners again if they already have perfectly good working tuners. Similar thing with the hard drive.





tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo makes a finished product, not a build-your-own-DVR kit. TiVo's main problem is that it is already too complicated for the average person to set up. Adding more layers of complexity is the wrong direction.


Right now you only have Cable & OTA tuners if a cable card replacement forced Dish, Direct, & ATT to allow access you would have 4 different types of tuners and a provider where no tuners where needed. At that point a tuner-less box would seem to make sense to me. You could then add USB C (which would also power the tuners) tuners for what ever provider you needed.


----------



## atmuscarella

Kremlar said:


> Definitely holding off my purchase until the Bolt is released.


New and shiny is always nice but if your reasons are software the Roamio will be running the same software. What the "Bolt" appears to be adding is 4K/UHD streaming, and built in "Stream" & MOCA for the base models, which are certainly reasons to wait, but don't expect to be paying anything near $300 with lifetime anytime soon.


----------



## Kremlar

> New and shiny is always nice but if your reasons are software the Roamio will be running the same software. What the "Bolt" appears to be adding is 4K/UHD streaming, and built in "Stream" & MOCA for the base models, which are certainly reasons to wait, but don't expect to be paying anything near $300 with lifetime anytime soon.


4K isn't that important to me at the moment, but the processing power that comes along with it is worth me waiting for.

The $300 Roamio deal is very tempting, but the reality is it probably wouldn't fit my needs. I'd love to get one to play with, but if I'm only going to end up eBaying it next month or throwing it in a spare room it doesn't make sense to buy.

I'm willing to pay Roamio Plus or Pro pricing, but doing so right now doesn't seem to make sense with Bolt right around the corner.


----------



## NashGuy

The UHD-streaming-capable Bolt will have hardware-based HEVC h.265 processing, which will be necessary to display UHD (4K) streams from Netflix, Amazon, etc., as those providers encode their UHD streams in HEVC rather than MPEG4 h.264. However, it may be that those providers will provide the Bolt with HEVC-encoded 1080p streams too, which would mean higher quality and/or lower bitrates. This could be a bonus for those of us without a UHD TV but who either want better quality HD or have problems with internet speed/congestion/data caps.

See the following article about the new Amazon Fire TV, which was announced today and offers UHD. Specifically note where it says:

_Folks with regular HDTVs can take advantage of the Fire TV's support of HEVC (high efficiency video coding) for higher quality 1080p streams at lower bit rates. Amazon says that HEVC is roughly two times more efficient than the standard h.264. If you live in an area where your streaming video quality is on par with an 8-bit video game, HEVC might help._

http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/17/4k-fire-tv/


----------



## Dan203

Kremlar said:


> I'm willing to pay Roamio Plus or Pro pricing, but doing so right now doesn't seem to make sense with Bolt right around the corner.


I probably wouldn't buy a Plus/Pro right now either. The only thing I'd even consider is the Base and only because of the fire sale pricing.


----------



## krkaufman

Kremlar said:


> The $300 Roamio deal is very tempting, but the reality is it probably wouldn't fit my needs. I'd love to get one to play with, but if I'm only going to end up eBaying it next month or throwing it in a spare room it doesn't make sense to buy.


Good use of the base model Roamio, even if/when you upgrade to Plus/Pro/Bolt, would be to bring-in any OTA signals your cable company may not deliver.

We're using a basic Roamio in antenna/OTA mode to grab 2 sub-channels from our public TV station that Comcast doesn't include, as well as the the OTA HD signal for The CW, which our Comcast branch only broadcasts in SD. And since we added the basic for grabbing this content, it also allows us to offload some other network recordings to free-up tuners and storage on our Roamio Pro.


----------



## Kremlar

> Good use of the base model Roamio, even if/when you upgrade to Plus/Pro/Bolt, would be to bring-in any OTA signals your cable company may not deliver.


That's a good point. However, I'm not aware of anything we're missing as far as locals. Not sure I want to go looking for a problem that doesn't yet exist. 

I don't watch too much regular TV myself, it's mostly my wife and kids.


----------



## keenanSR

Dan203 said:


> I probably wouldn't buy a Plus/Pro right now either. The only thing I'd even consider is the Base and only because of the fire sale pricing.


Unless the Pro can be had at closeout prices, like a showroom floor model that's never been hooked up for around $100-$125.


----------



## meoge

I want simplicity. One box with mini's attached. 1 set of 1p's to manage and recordings that I can watch anywhere without having to think about where it was recorded. I just talked my parents into getting the Roamio base model with a mini which should save them almost $40 a month in fees from comcast, but 4 tuners would concern me. I would buy a plus in a heartbeat if they had a fire sale on them. At this point the Bolt will probably be out within 30 days so I could always return everything if it was really that much better.


----------



## Dan203

meoge said:


> I want simplicity. One box with mini's attached. 1 set of 1p's to manage and recordings that I can watch anywhere without having to think about where it was recorded. I just talked my parents into getting the Roamio base model with a mini which should save them almost $40 a month in fees from comcast, but 4 tuners would concern me. I would buy a plus in a heartbeat if they had a fire sale on them. At this point the Bolt will probably be out within 30 days so I could always return everything if it was really that much better.


I still don't know why they haven't added user profiles. That's the one thing missing that would allow a whole family to use a single DVR seamlessly. I understand that some people may not use it because it adds a layer of complexity to the system, but just make it something you can turn on/off then.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> I still don't know why they haven't added user profiles. *That's the one thing missing that would allow a whole family to use a single DVR seamlessly.* I understand that some people may not use it because it adds a layer of complexity to the system, but just make it something you can turn on/off then.


A-men!

And, truly, beyond the obvious need simply to facilitate a better whole home experience, user profiles have become even more necessary with the addition of streaming services and OnePass. Viewers within the household should have access to their personal Youtube accounts, Netflix profiles, etc, aside from personal TiVo settings and history.

p.s. The mystery in the first sentence is possibly answered by the second: absence of user profiles drives sale of additional DVRs. And that TiVo has no real competition in the retail space means there's nothing pressuring them to add it. Retail customers don't seem to matter, so we can only hope that some provider forces TiVo to add the capability.


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> The UHD-streaming-capable Bolt will have hardware-based HEVC h.265 processing, which will be necessary to display UHD (4K) streams from Netflix, Amazon, etc., as those providers encode their UHD streams in HEVC rather than MPEG4 h.264. However, it may be that those providers will provide the Bolt with HEVC-encoded 1080p streams too, which would mean higher quality and/or lower bitrates. This could be a bonus for those of us without a UHD TV but who either want better quality HD or have problems with internet speed/congestion/data caps.
> 
> See the following article about the new Amazon Fire TV, which was announced today and offers UHD. Specifically note where it says:
> 
> Folks with regular HDTVs can take advantage of the Fire TV's support of HEVC (high efficiency video coding) for higher quality 1080p streams at lower bit rates. Amazon says that HEVC is roughly two times more efficient than the standard h.264. If you live in an area where your streaming video quality is on par with an 8-bit video game, HEVC might help.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/17/4k-fire-tv/


More likely the same quality at lower bitrates for 1080P with HEVC l.


----------



## jonw747

Dan203 said:


> I probably wouldn't buy a Plus/Pro right now either. The only thing I'd even consider is the Base and only because of the fire sale pricing.


Dunno, I was able to get Lifetime on my Plus as a customer returning to TiVo for $100. Would they have offered me that deal if they weren't clearing out inventory for the new Bolt's?

And then we don't know what the pricing will be on the Bolt.


----------



## Dan203

jonw747 said:


> Dunno, I was able to get Lifetime on my Plus as a customer returning to TiVo for $100. Would they have offered me that deal if they weren't clearing out inventory for the new Bolt's?
> 
> And then we don't know what the pricing will be on the Bolt.


No that's a good deal. I would have taken that. What I meant is I wouldn't buy a Plus/Pro right now for full price. If I could get that kind of deal I'd jump on it. (provided I needed a TiVo)


----------



## Kremlar

Perhaps they'll reduce pricing on Roamio Plus/Pros once the Bolt is announced.


----------



## keenanSR

Kremlar said:


> Perhaps they'll reduce pricing on Roamio Plus/Pros once the Bolt is announced.


They should, or I should say, retailers like BestBuy/MagHiFi will, just as they did when the Roamio was announced. I don't know what TiVo themselves will do.


----------



## atmuscarella

Kremlar said:


> Perhaps they'll reduce pricing on Roamio Plus/Pros once the Bolt is announced.





keenanSR said:


> They should, or I should say, retailers like BestBuy/MagHiFi will, just as they did when the Roamio was announced. I don't know what TiVo themselves will do.


I assume that depends on inventory. The plus is unit they sell/sold to their cable company partners and they seemed to be more popular than the base Roamio until the price got lower on the base units so perhaps they don't have as many left to sell as they did the base units.


----------



## Series3Sub

Dan203 said:


> I still don't know why they haven't added user profiles. That's the one thing missing that would allow a whole family to use a single DVR seamlessly. I understand that some people may not use it because it adds a layer of complexity to the system, but just make it something you can turn on/off then.


Yes, the now deceased Sezmi DVR had this from day one, and I think EVERY DVR from whomever ought to have such a feature. Let me tell you, I've heard it from almost every family about EASILY (not just Custom Folders like Dish has and TiVo _SHOULD_ have) separating each house members content like the way Netflix does today: you pick the user/profile, and that's it. Every other person's content does not pollute the others when going to that My Recordings screen for any DVR. Also, DVR settings would be per User/Profile. Again, Sezmi got it right, but they really blew their chance considering Channel Master has continued to offer a DVR in several generations. FWIW, I think Sezmi's biggest problem was their attempt to provide "cable" channels using the ATSC multiplex (just about every user stated this was a horrible experience, but loved the OTA functionality) and charge extra for it (and it COST them extra to provide it) instead of just focusing the product as an OTA DVR. Their monthly fee was something like $2? It was really cheap, but it was a COMPLEX looking product that even included a proprietary antenna, especially with Channel Master providing less: just the box; BYO antenna.


----------



## krkaufman

Series3Sub said:


> Yes, the now deceased Sezmi DVR had this from day one, and I think EVERY DVR from whomever ought to have such a feature. ... Again, Sezmi got it right, but they really blew their chance considering Channel Master has continued to offer a DVR in several generations. FWIW, I think Sezmi's biggest problem was their attempt to provide "cable" channels using the ATSC multiplex (just about every user stated this was a horrible experience, but loved the OTA functionality) and charge extra for it (and it COST them extra to provide it) instead of just focusing the product as an OTA DVR. Their monthly fee was something like $2? It was really cheap, but it was a COMPLEX looking product that even included a proprietary antenna, especially with Channel Master providing less: just the box; BYO antenna.


It's my understanding that Sezmi also launched in a very limited region, owing to being tied to those broadcast agreements.

Sigh... Would have been nice to see how they implemented user profiles. (edit: video demo; distinct buttons for each user profile on the remote seems an odd way to have gone)

-----
edit: What the heck, is that subwoofer thing the antenna? (link)










(Amazon review excerpt) There are obvious similarities between Tivo and Sezmi, but where Sezmi primarily differs is in allowing viewers/users to create their own customized 'zones' which learns their own viewing habits and records their own shows independent of other users. A user's own interface is customizable by setting a color scheme to differentiate it from other users, and each is accessed via a color-coded button on the remote, which all works quite well, albeit the switch between users can be rather slow (more on speed issues further on). This is a nice feature as it allows separation of content for families or multi-viewer homes, where peoples viewing tastes may differ (husband: science and sci-fi, wife: reality and home/garden, kids: cartoons and music) etc.​


----------



## series5orpremier

krkaufman said:


> Good use of the base model Roamio, even if/when you upgrade to Plus/Pro/Bolt, would be to bring-in any OTA signals your cable company may not deliver.


As well as the OTA signals your cable company does deliver. Picking them out of the air will give a cleaner higher quality signal than any cable company will. The resolution and clarity difference can be eye-popping.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Kremlar said:


> Perhaps they'll reduce pricing on Roamio Plus/Pros once the Bolt is announced.


Is it fairly clear that there will be a 6 Tuner Bolt? I have not really seen anything to indicate that.

If there is a 6 Tuner Bolt, and it also uses a 2.5" HDD count me out.


----------



## HarperVision

series5orpremier said:


> As well as the OTA signals your cable company does deliver. Picking them out of the air will give a cleaner higher quality signal than any cable company will. The resolution and clarity difference can be eye-popping.


Usually yes, but not always. I have to pickup repeater stations and they suck and are compressed as heII with two "HD" signals in one atsc channel. Only about 8.5-9Mb each and they also dumbed them down from 1080i to 720p. They pixelate like crazy on motion and have horrible mosquito and MPEG noise! 

I'm actually just now trying to get limited basic cable back with my existing internet connection so I can dump those channels from ota.

As always, YMMV.


----------



## krkaufman

series5orpremier said:


> As well as the OTA signals your cable company does deliver. Picking them out of the air will give a cleaner higher quality signal than any cable company will. The resolution and clarity difference can be eye-popping.


Agreed. The CW station in our area is a good example of that, as I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph of my post. Comcast only carries it in SD, but we're grabbing it in Full HD via OTA.

(Though, as you suggest, I should perhaps look at all my local channels and see if any others are being compressed by Comcast, aside from the obvious SD/HD difference seen with CW.)


----------



## wmcbrine

CoxInPHX said:


> Is it fairly clear that there will be a 6 Tuner Bolt? I have not really seen anything to indicate that.


I'd be amazed if there isn't. I can't see them going backwards on a feature like that.

Unless you mean something like, "I thought they'd all have 8 tuners"?



> _If there is a 6 Tuner Bolt, and it also uses a 2.5" HDD count me out._


----------



## atmuscarella

CoxInPHX said:


> Is it fairly clear that there will be a 6 Tuner Bolt? I have not really seen anything to indicate that.
> 
> If there is a 6 Tuner Bolt, and it also uses a 2.5" HDD count me out.





wmcbrine said:


> I'd be amazed if there isn't. I can't see them going backwards on a feature like that.


According to Dave Zatz's article 3 boxes went through FCC approval and 2 of those appeared to get cable card certification. So I would say it is a pretty safe bet that there is a 4 & 6 tuner cable "Bolt" on the way.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

atmuscarella said:


> According to Dave Zatz's article 3 boxes went through FCC approval and 2 of those appeared to get cable card certification. So I would say it is a pretty safe bet that there is a 4 & 6 tuner cable "Bolt" on the way.


The only question mark (however small) is that the FCC approval indicated, "The difference between models is the capacity of the disk drive and if a cable card is required."

Hopefully they were mistaken and there is also a # tuner difference between the cable options. It wouldn't be the first time they made that kind of error. It would be dumb if there weren't a 6-tuner box.


----------



## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> (Though, as you suggest, I should perhaps look at all my local channels and see if any others are being compressed by Comcast, aside from the obvious SD/HD difference seen with CW.)


I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least a slight downgrade in HD PQ between Comcast and the original OTA signal, especially if Comcast is re-encoding the signal from MPEG2 to MPEG4. (Isn't Comcast doing all their HD channels in MPEG4 now?)

I can certainly tell that my local HD channels look a little crisper and more vibrant OTA than they did with DirecTV. And my recollection is that when I switched from Comcast years ago to satellite that the HD PQ, if anything, slightly improved. (HD PQ on U-verse, OTOH, is plain awful.)

That said, I would imagine that the comparison between OTA and cable will depend on the specific market where you live and the specific channel. (HD PQ can vary quite a bit among local OTA channels.) In some cases, a channel will look just as good on cable. In most cases, I suspect, it will not. And I think I'm correct in stating that in zero cases will a local HD station look better via cable than it does OTA (assuming you have good antenna reception).


----------



## wmcbrine

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Hopefully they were mistaken and there is also a # tuner difference between the cable options. It wouldn't be the first time they made that kind of error. It would be dumb if there weren't a 6-tuner box.


Couldn't they _all_ be 6-tuner boxes? Did I miss where it was established that a 4-tuner Bolt will exist?


----------



## NashGuy

wmcbrine said:


> Couldn't they _all_ be 6-tuner boxes? Did I miss where it was established that a 4-tuner Bolt will exist?


I guess that's possible, although, as a Roamio OTA user, a 6-tuner OTA DVR really seems like overkill to me and a waste of hardware money on TiVo's part. Maybe during the upcoming launch of the new fall TV season there will be an occasion where I'll want to record 4 shows at once. It hasn't happened yet. I can't imagine there EVER being an instance when I'd want to record 6 OTA shows at once though. (Although I'm sure the TiVo Recommendations feature would have a field day with the extra tuners.)

But who knows? Maybe TiVo will follow the lead of Dish's Primetime Anytime feature with the upcoming Bolt OTA DVR so that it will (optionally) automatically record all primetime programming on the 6 major OTA networks (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, PBS and The CW). They'd better put at least a 1 TB drive in there if they do that.


----------



## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> I guess that's possible, although, as a Roamio OTA user, a 6-tuner OTA DVR really seems like overkill to me and a waste of hardware money on TiVo's part. Maybe during the upcoming launch of the new fall TV season there will be an occasion where I'll want to record 4 shows at once. It hasn't happened yet. I can't imagine there EVER being an instance when I'd want to record 6 OTA shows at once though. (Although I'm sure the TiVo Recommendations feature would have a field day with the extra tuners.)
> 
> But who knows? Maybe TiVo will follow the lead of Dish's Primetime Anytime feature with the upcoming Bolt OTA DVR so that it will (optionally) automatically record all primetime programming on the 6 major OTA networks (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, PBS and The CW). They'd better put at least a 1 TB drive in there if they do that.


Well, you have to also keep in mind that the extra tuners are also needed to power more Minis. So while you might not ever want to actually record 6 OTA channels at once, you might want to have the option of several Minis watching live TV in a household at the same time you are recording several shows.


----------



## HarperVision

NashGuy said:


> I guess that's possible, although, as a Roamio OTA user, a 6-tuner OTA DVR really seems like overkill to me and a waste of hardware money on TiVo's part. Maybe during the upcoming launch of the new fall TV season there will be an occasion where I'll want to record 4 shows at once. It hasn't happened yet. I can't imagine there EVER being an instance when I'd want to record 6 OTA shows at once though. (Although I'm sure the TiVo Recommendations feature would have a field day with the extra tuners.) But who knows? Maybe TiVo will follow the lead of Dish's Primetime Anytime feature with the upcoming Bolt OTA DVR so that it will (optionally) automatically record all primetime programming on the 6 major OTA networks (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, PBS and The CW). They'd better put at least a 1 TB drive in there if they do that.


Yes, but you also have to take into consideration how many minis may be hooking up to that TiVo as well. If you have three or four and they all happen to watch live tv, even if they're on the same channel, they'll each eat up a tuner.


----------



## atmuscarella

wmcbrine said:


> Couldn't they _all_ be 6-tuner boxes? Did I miss where it was established that a 4-tuner Bolt will exist?





NashGuy said:


> I guess that's possible, although, as a Roamio OTA user, a 6-tuner OTA DVR really seems like overkill to me and a waste of hardware money on TiVo's part. Maybe during the upcoming launch of the new fall TV season there will be an occasion where I'll want to record 4 shows at once. It hasn't happened yet. I can't imagine there EVER being an instance when I'd want to record 6 OTA shows at once though. (Although I'm sure the TiVo Recommendations feature would have a field day with the extra tuners.)


I believe that when it comes to OTA there is no known manufacture with a 6 tuner OTA part. To exceed 4 would require multiple parts which would really add to the cost and complexity (same issue with building high tuner count DVR that can do OTA & cable at the same time).


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, you have to also keep in mind that the extra tuners are also needed to power more Minis. So while you might not ever want to actually record 6 OTA channels at once, you might want to have the option of several Minis watching live TV in a household at the same time you are recording several shows.





HarperVision said:


> Yes, but you also have to take into consideration how many minis may be hooking up to that TiVo as well. If you have three or four and they all happen to watch live tv, even if they're on the same channel, they'll each eat up a tuner.


Haha.......great minds think alike!


----------



## tarheelblue32

HarperVision said:


> Haha.......great minds think alike!


:up:


----------



## tarheelblue32

I will be interested to find out if the Bolt will actually support 4K streaming apps. Amazon's new 4K Fire TV will be officially released October 5. If the Bolt is officially released before that, then TiVo will technically be the first 4K streaming box on the market, unless there are other 4K set-top boxes already on the market that I am not aware of.


----------



## NashGuy

HarperVision said:


> Yes, but you also have to take into consideration how many minis may be hooking up to that TiVo as well. If you have three or four and they all happen to watch live tv, even if they're on the same channel, they'll each eat up a tuner.


Yeah, that's true. I didn't think about Minis. (I don't use any.) My guess is that exceptionally few OTA-only households have more than one Mini hooked up to their Roamio OTA but I may be wrong. (After the 2nd TV in the master bedroom, I think most cord cutters would just say, "On that third TV in the other room, we'll just use the built-in tuner plus whatever old streaming box we already happen to have.")

I think the most likely scenario is that the FCC report erred in implying that all three Bolt models have the same number of tuners. I don't think the sales/marketing benefit of 6 OTA tuners would justify the additional hardware costs.


----------



## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> I guess that's possible, although, as a Roamio OTA user, a 6-tuner OTA DVR really seems like overkill to me and a waste of hardware money on TiVo's part. Maybe during the upcoming launch of the new fall TV season there will be an occasion where I'll want to record 4 shows at once.


With the way networks time their shows, padding becomes required so the 4 current tuners can get chewed-up pretty quickly. (edit: Oh, right, and then there's the Minis needing tuners for live TV, as tarheel & HarperVision pointed-out. Again, sure would be nice if TiVo allowed for network-based tuners like the SiliconDust HDHomeRuns, even if they only allowed the OTA tuners.)


----------



## NashGuy

tarheelblue32 said:


> I will be interested to find out if the Bolt will actually support 4K streaming apps. Amazon's new 4K Fire TV will be officially released October 5. If the Bolt is officially released before that, then TiVo will technically be the first 4K streaming box on the market, unless there are other 4K set-top boxes already on the market that I am not aware of.


Based on reporting by Dave Zatz (as well as leaked YouTube videos which have now been pulled), it looks very, very likely that it will support UHD.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-09/tivo-bolt-4k/

That said, the Nvidia Shield, which runs Android TV, is already out and it provides UHD streaming.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

wmcbrine said:


> Couldn't they _all_ be 6-tuner boxes? Did I miss where it was established that a 4-tuner Bolt will exist?


True. I suppose that technically hasn't been officially established. Though that would be a little surprising too.

I'm in the Sept. 22 camp that we'll find out.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> I can't imagine there EVER being an instance when I'd want to record 6 OTA shows at once though. (Although I'm sure the TiVo Recommendations feature would have a field day with the extra tuners.)


Living in a large urban area, I actually have come across occasions when more than 4 tuners would be handy. Tends to occur when a few newer channels are running classic and other high-quality movies (my area has had some new channels come out in the past year or two, specializing in the huge catalog of earlier great movies just sitting out there).


----------



## b_scott

krkaufman said:


> A-men!
> 
> And, truly, beyond the obvious need simply to facilitate a better whole home experience, user profiles have become even more necessary with the addition of streaming services and OnePass. Viewers within the household should have access to their personal Youtube accounts, Netflix profiles, etc, aside from personal TiVo settings and history.
> 
> p.s. The mystery in the first sentence is possibly answered by the second: *absence of user profiles drives sale of additional DVRs*. And that TiVo has no real competition in the retail space means there's nothing pressuring them to add it. Retail customers don't seem to matter, so we can only hope that some provider forces TiVo to add the capability.


uh, only if you each use only your "own DVR" to record shows. And this doesn't take into account shows that multiple people watch in the house.


----------



## krkaufman

b_scott said:


> uh, only if you each use only your "own DVR" to record shows.


Yes, that's the point. If someone wants a DVR with just "my" content, their only choice is a DVR for each viewer, and each person would be responsible for managing their own DVR.



> And this doesn't take into account shows that multiple people watch in the house.


Yes it does. The per-user DVR scenario requires each person record the content they want on their own DVR, allowing them to watch and delete the content without concern for other viewers.


----------



## b_scott

krkaufman said:


> Yes, that's the point. If someone wants a DVR with just "my" content, their only choice is a DVR for each viewer, and each person would be responsible for managing their own DVR.
> 
> Yes it does. The per-user DVR scenario requires each person record the content they want on their own DVR, allowing them to watch and delete the content without concern for other viewers.


I don't see how this drives more DVR sales. You don't have to do this. Plus it creates redundant recordings when you can just MRV.


----------



## HarperVision

b_scott said:


> I don't see how this drives more DVR sales. You don't have to do this. Plus it creates redundant recordings when you can just MRV.


It wouldn't have to record it more than once. Once it's recorded it would just have to be shown in each folder that selected it to record.


----------



## b_scott

HarperVision said:


> It wouldn't have to record it more than once. Once it's recorded it would just have to be shown in each folder that selected it to record.


That's different, and not the same thing I read. So you'd have to say which profiles want to subscribe to that show - multi-choice.


----------



## NashGuy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'm in the Sept. 22 camp that we'll find out.


Yeah, hopefully this Tuesday will finally be the day to answer all our questions about the Bolt. I had originally been anticipating it would arrive in late July based on a comment someone at TiVo had made to a reporter earlier in the summer. And the TiVo website leak showing images of the Bolt was way back on Aug. 2. We've been anticipating this thing for awhile now.

Lots of new TV boxes being announced this month, between the new Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV, and likely a new Chromecast (and possibly a new Nexus Player) on Sept. 29. Maybe TiVo joins the Sept. party next week.


----------



## Kremlar

Is it possible that they will hold off their announcement until CEDIA which is October 14-17? Have they announced past products at major trade shows?


----------



## bearcat2000

It's coming Tuesday. Patience grasshopper.


----------



## TazExprez

bearcat2000 said:


> It's coming Tuesday. Patience grasshopper.


Are you very sure? I hope you are right.


----------



## davezatz

TazExprez said:


> Are you very sure? I hope you are right.


The tea leaves indicate we're getting close... but I can't personally identify a day. Tuesday works for my schedule, tho.


----------



## krkaufman

b_scott said:


> I don't see how this drives more DVR sales. You don't have to do this. Plus it creates redundant recordings when you can just MRV.


Except trying to MRV the Colbert show from 3 nights ago off the wife's DVR doesn't work so well when she's already watched and deleted the episode. Her DVR, her content, her control.

The only way I can guarantee* that I have control over *my* content is by recording it on my DVR.

_* That said, there's nothing that can be done about an interloper invading my DVR and razing it._​


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> It wouldn't have to record it more than once. Once it's recorded it would just have to be shown in each folder that selected it to record.


In the scenario under discussion, his and her DVRs, a show both viewers are interested in *would* need to be recorded twice, once on each viewer's DVR, unless some loss-of-control were to be surrendered by one party or the other, requiring sifting through the other user's DVR content to stream or transfer a show -- which is hopefully still available.

On the other hand, what you suggest is closer to the ideal, where we have user profiles and a given show is recorded only once on a single DVR. Any users subscribed to that show will see it in their personal "My Shows" listing -- whaddya know, "My Shows" is actually *my* shows -- and deleting a program will remove it from their listing only, though they could recover it by restoring it from their 'Deleted Recordings' folder.

All the normal TiVo rules for permanently deleting recordings would still apply, though the user profiles-capable TiVo would prioritize first deleting shows which have been tagged for deletion by all subscribed users. (Well, Suggestions would go first, of course.)


----------



## krkaufman

b_scott said:


> I don't see how this (user-specific DVRs) drives more DVR sales.


I'm only going off the many comments I've seen on this site where people have explicitly said that they've purchased multiple DVRs so that each viewer could have their own show listings without the noise of others' content getting in the way.

That said, I do think it's driving sales of additional DVRs, but if TiVo is actually using this as a reason not to add user profiles to their system they are insane -- because, in my opinion, however many DVRs they might be selling to households wanting personal DVRs, it pales in comparison to the up-tick in DVR sales were they to add an effective user profiles capability.


----------



## bradleys

I suspect all the UI changes will migrate down to the Roamio line soon after release, so that wouldn't be 

I wonder if we will be able to take advantage of the voice control by simply upgrading the remote control? Not sure how much I would use it...

Hardware based improvements I suspect would be limited too: 4k, new remote with microphone, and updated processors in both the TiVo and Stream units.


----------



## lessd

krkaufman said:


> Except trying to MRV the Colbert show from 3 nights ago off the wife's DVR doesn't work so well when she's already watched and deleted the episode. Her DVR, her content, her control.
> 
> The only way I can guarantee* that I have control over *my* content is by recording it on my DVR.
> 
> _* That said, there's nothing that can be done about an interloper invading my DVR and razing it._​


You know that you can go to her delete folder from your TiVo and undelete any show she deleted, just saying.

A bigger problem is padding of any single recording that you and your wife both want, different padding for say 60 minute, how do you solve that without conflict. Some programs don't have good guide data and may need special treatment to record what you want, and for more record space some people (like my wife) record in SD, her TiVo she can do what she wants, no problem for me.
A unified solution to profiles is not that easy on any DVR as it is on say Netflix.


----------



## krkaufman

lessd said:


> You know that you can go to her delete folder from your TiVo and undelete any show she deleted, just saying.


Maybe. It all depends on when I get around to trying to watch it; it's possible that it's already been permanently deleted before I ever get to it. And that's on top of the hassle of having to dig around to find it, if it can be found.



> A bigger problem is padding of any single recording that you and your wife both want, different padding for say 60 minute, how do you solve that without conflict. Some programs don't have good guide data and may need special treatment to record what you want, and for more record space some people (like my wife) record in SD, her TiVo she can do what she wants, no problem for me.
> 
> A unified solution to profiles is not that easy on any DVR as it is on say Netflix.


It's not simple, certainly, but I really don't see it being all that much more difficult than what they've already built. TiVo already has a conflict resolution mechanism that works pretty darn well, and I would think they could establish user priorities that would prevent lower-level users from affecting the recordings for higher priority users. But implementing user profiles for scheduling *would* be adding degrees of difficulty beyond what may be needed.

Keeping it as simple as possible, I wouldn't have a problem with keeping the scheduling side as it currently stands, as a free for all allowing any user to set or modify the recording schedule, keeping OnePass Manager as the single control for what gets recorded.

In this simplest implementation, where user profiles are viewing-centric, all my main requirements would be met: personalized filtering of content, user-specific watch progress, personalized app authentication, and, for the yoot, personalized social media linkages.

---

All that said, your scenario of trying to record the same program in two different formats *would* pose a problem, but mostly because of TiVo's new-ish OnePass, which only allows a single schedule entry per show. OnePass aside, yes, we'll still have the same resource storage and tuner resource constraints we've always had. So it'd be *great* if TiVo would bump-up the supported drive sizes and allow for network-based add-on tuners, as well.


----------



## snerd

lessd said:


> A bigger problem is padding of any single recording that you and your wife both want, different padding for say 60 minute, how do you solve that without conflict. Some programs don't have good guide data and may need special treatment to record what you want, and for more record space some people (like my wife) record in SD, her TiVo she can do what she wants, no problem for me.


As long as the multiple recordings are from the same channel, finding the appropriate start and stop times to cover all the requested cases is not terribly difficult. Keeping track of where to start/stop within that window, for each of the requested cases, also isn't terribly difficult.

However, since TiVo hasn't even seen fit to allow starting a recording late or ending it early, I'm not optimistic about getting profiles. Sigh.


----------



## Dan203

I don't think they even need to make it that complex. I think they could still have a single OnePass per show, which all users have the authority to edit, and users simply opt in/out as to whether it shows in their list. In fact I don't even think we need completely separate My Shows lists. They could simply add user filters to that left hand bar so that each person could limit the view to their shows if they wanted. (or maybe cycle through users using the D button) That greatly simplifies the whole profile system.

Sure you could get into a complex system with separate 1P, separate To Do Lists, separate My Shows, etc... but that would require a complex set of rules to deal with conflicts, padding, 1P settings, etc... A much simpler, but still useful, system would be to add a list of users to each 1P (along with an All option) and set each 1P to whichever users want to watch it. Then in the My Shows list they could have a way to select the user so they only see the 1Ps assigned to them. And if a show is assigned to multiple users then deleting the show would pop up a dialog asking if you wanted to delete the recording or remove it from your list. If you're the last, or only, user assigned to a recording then it would just delete it without asking like it does now. Bonus points if they could add user groups, so say a group called Adult could contain both Mom and Dad for shows they watch together.


----------



## andyw715

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they even need to make it that complex. I think they could still have a single OnePass per show, which all users have the authority to edit, and users simply opt in/out as to whether it shows in their list. In fact I don't even think we need completely separate My Shows lists. They could simply add user filters to that left hand bar so that each person could limit the view to their shows if they wanted. (or maybe cycle through users using the D button) That greatly simplifies the whole profile system.
> 
> Sure you could get into a complex system with separate 1P, separate To Do Lists, separate My Shows, etc... but that would require a complex set of rules to deal with conflicts, padding, 1P settings, etc... A much simpler, but still useful, system would be to add a list of users to each 1P (along with an All option) and set each 1P to whichever users want to watch it. Then in the My Shows list they could have a way to select the user so they only see the 1Ps assigned to them. And if a show is assigned to multiple users then deleting the show would pop up a dialog asking if you wanted to delete the recording or remove it from your list. If you're the last, or only, user assigned to a recording then it would just delete it without asking like it does now. Bonus points if they could add user groups, so say a group called Adult could contain both Mom and Dad for shows they watch together.


I agree, basically a tagging system.

Like something on your TiVo, be it a show, season pass, wish list recording, etc. just tag it with your name and the end result will show up in your personal NPL


----------



## lessd

andyw715 said:


> I agree, basically a tagging system.
> 
> Like something on your TiVo, be it a show, season pass, wish list recording, etc. just tag it with your name and the end result will show up in your personal NPL


One of my concerns; would the same show that both people wanted record twice,? if so no problem except space, then I could do my padding and my wife could do what she wanted, but not much gain, I will go with two TiVos one for her and one for me, works great in my circumstances as she can record in SD and I can record in HD, and she has to control her recording space as I have to do the same with my recording space. If space runes out who recordings will go first, not a issue I want with my wife.


----------



## filovirus

krkaufman said:


> With the way networks time their shows, padding becomes required so the 4 current tuners can get chewed-up pretty quickly. (edit: Oh, right, and then there's the Minis needing tuners for live TV, as tarheel & HarperVision pointed-out. Again, sure would be nice if TiVo allowed for network-based tuners like the SiliconDust HDHomeRuns, even if they only allowed the OTA tuners.)


With an OTA Roamio, and if I am only recording the four major networks, would I run into issues with timing and missed recordings? Four tuner OTA is a one to one relationship between tuners and networks unless I were to throw in an oddball pbs show. I guess I don't see the CW/PBS as a major networks.

That said, I wouldn't throw a Tivo Bolt Aereo out of bed for having too many tuners.


----------



## bearcat2000

We're getting closer.


----------



## krkaufman

filovirus said:


> With an OTA Roamio, and if I am only recording the four major networks, would I run into issues with timing and missed recordings?


If you don't pre- or post-pad any of your recordings, no.


----------



## krkaufman

bearcat2000 said:


> We're getting closer.


To the Bolt ... *and* the suspected end of the 4-tuner Roamio "supersavings" sale.


----------



## krkaufman

Ruh-roh... yet another product may look to steal the thunder from TiVo's Bolt, per Dave Zatz...
ZNF: Roku 4 Just Days Away?​


----------



## atmuscarella

lessd said:


> not a issue I want with my wife.


My personal opinion is; if a couple wants TV harmony the best solution is 2 complete TV setups in separate rooms, no sharing of anything. Sure you may watch some things together, but best for each to have their own full setup.


----------



## foghorn2

I have 2 Roamio basics, 3 mini's.

1 roam goes ethernet to the main switch/network(main router). I have another router hooked to the switch, the second roam is connected ethernet to this 2nd router and 3 minis are hooked to this 2nd router via the Actiontech ECB3500T01 moca adapter.

The 3 minis feed off the 2nd Roam. This group cannot control or see any recordings from the first roam. 

If I connect 1 mini with ethernet to the main network (the one the 1st roam is on) in addition to Moca, it will be able to see the first Roams recordings.

This way the wife and kids have their own setup and cant mess with my box. Also I can use 1 mini in the master bedroom to maintain/control their DVR and still watch recordings from my box.

Just love this setup.


----------



## trip1eX

They don't need 6 or more tuners for OTA. And they don't need profiles.

As some said, the solution to these 2 problems exists today. Buy a 2nd Tivo.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they even need to make it that complex. I think they could still have a single OnePass per show, which all users have the authority to edit, and users simply opt in/out as to whether it shows in their list. In fact I don't even think we need completely separate My Shows lists. They could simply add user filters to that left hand bar so that each person could limit the view to their shows if they wanted. (or maybe cycle through users using the D button) That greatly simplifies the whole profile system.
> 
> Sure you could get into a complex system with separate 1P, separate To Do Lists, separate My Shows, etc... but that would require a complex set of rules to deal with conflicts, padding, 1P settings, etc... A much simpler, but still useful, system would be to add a list of users to each 1P (along with an All option) and set each 1P to whichever users want to watch it. Then in the My Shows list they could have a way to select the user so they only see the 1Ps assigned to them. And if a show is assigned to multiple users then deleting the show would pop up a dialog asking if you wanted to delete the recording or remove it from your list. If you're the last, or only, user assigned to a recording then it would just delete it without asking like it does now. Bonus points if they could add user groups, so say a group called Adult could contain both Mom and Dad for shows they watch together.


What if they just let the user hit page down and/or the down arrow to find their show?


----------



## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> They don't need 6 or more tuners for OTA. And they don't need profiles.
> 
> As some said, the solution to these 2 problems exists today. Buy a 2nd Tivo.


If you want to pad all your programs, yes, 6+ tuners is needed. As is user profiles. And buying a separate TiVo for each person in the household should be unnecessary.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they even need to make it that complex. I think they could still have a single OnePass per show, which all users have the authority to edit, and users simply opt in/out as to whether it shows in their list. In fact I don't even think we need completely separate My Shows lists. They could simply add user filters to that left hand bar so that each person could limit the view to their shows if they wanted. (or maybe cycle through users using the D button) That greatly simplifies the whole profile system.


This would almost require unified OnePass (record on whatever Tivo has a free tuner at the time) which I've wanted for a long time - but I don't see that happening.


----------



## NashGuy

Looks like the Roamio OTA and the upcoming Bolt Aereo Edition may get some competition from a cloud DVR next year. And if monthly service costs less than $2, as the story suggests, this thing may get real traction.

http://variety.com/2015/digital/new...ud-dvr-called-showdrive-exclusive-1201598770/


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> Looks like the Roamio OTA and the upcoming Bolt Aereo Edition may get some competition from a cloud DVR next year. And if monthly service costs less than $2, as the story suggests, this thing may get real traction.
> 
> http://variety.com/2015/digital/new...ud-dvr-called-showdrive-exclusive-1201598770/


$2 a month?!?! Good luck with that. I doubt they would be around very long.


----------



## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> $2 a month?!?! Good luck with that. I doubt they would be around very long.


$1.54 (1 GBP) is the introductory rate for 100 hours of cloud storage; the story indicates they'd approach $8/month for 1000 hours of cloud storage.


> Simple.tv plans to charge British consumers £1 (about $1.55) per month for 100 hours of cloud recording capability, and £5 for 1000 hours. The company is looking to launch with U.S. partners next year.


----------



## TazExprez

I guess the Bolt is not going to be released today. The TiVo Super Savings Sale is still going on. I guess we can expect an announcement anywhere from now until CEDIA EXPO 2015, which will be held from the 14th to the 17th of October.


----------



## krkaufman

TazExprez said:


> I guess the Bolt is not going to be released today. The TiVo Super Savings Sale is still going on. I guess we can expect an announcement anywhere from now until CEDIA EXPO 2015, which will be held from the 14th to the 17th of October.


Yeah, I'm wondering if the reported end of the 10-year loyalty program on October 31st might not be a better indicator as to timing of the Bolt release.


----------



## Kremlar

From what I understand they are planning a 3rd fiscal quarter release, which from what I understand means before 10/31. CEDIA seems to be a good place for a product announcement.


----------



## jonw747

Folders sure would be a lot simpler to implement than user profiles. Then shows that are being recorded for specific family members can just be dumped in a folder.

It could even just be another type of filter in the left side bar.

It wouldn't address everything you guys mentioned, but it would still be a lot better than we are now.


----------



## davezatz

Kremlar said:


> From what I understand they are planning a 3rd fiscal quarter release, which from what I understand means before 10/31. CEDIA seems to be a good place for a product announcement.


Also bummed we haven't seen anything yet. Based on the earlier forum note, I checked my phone throughout the night for reviews. Boo hiss. (Although the day isn't over...)

I believe I've seen some official stuff indicating October. Related, as previously mentioned, I do have reason to believe we're close. Regarding CEDIA, I'm sure they'd want to show anything new there if the timing works out. But there's no reason to specifically time an announcement with that event. I do wonder if we'll get a THIRD TiVo Mega announcement, tho.


----------



## Kremlar

My credit card is ready and waiting!


----------



## NashGuy

TazExprez said:


> I guess the Bolt is not going to be released today. The TiVo Super Savings Sale is still going on. I guess we can expect an announcement anywhere from now until CEDIA EXPO 2015, which will be held from the 14th to the 17th of October.


It's still early on the west coast, where TiVo's located. We may still see it today. If the artwork that leaked from TiVo's staging website awhile back is any indication, we may see a whole revamp of TiVo.com: new look, new nav menus, etc. If that's the case, we could see that Super Sale remain on the site right until they pull the whole site down and put the new one up, like Apple does during their big announcement events.

But yeah, if not today, any time before Oct. 31, possibly at CEDIA.


----------



## Dan203

lessd said:


> One of my concerns; would the same show that both people wanted record twice,? if so no problem except space, then I could do my padding and my wife could do what she wanted, but not much gain, I will go with two TiVos one for her and one for me, works great in my circumstances as she can record in SD and I can record in HD, and she has to control her recording space as I have to do the same with my recording space. If space runes out who recordings will go first, not a issue I want with my wife.


No, it would record the show once. When you delete it the delete dialog would offer you two options. Delete for all users or Remove from my list. Basically a reference counting system. If a show is only tagged by one user then it would delete without confirmation like it is now.


----------



## krkaufman

Kremlar said:


> From what I understand they are planning a 3rd fiscal quarter release, which from what I understand means before 10/31. *CEDIA seems to be a good place for a product announcement.*


For anyone else who was wondering...

http://expo.cedia.net/

CEDIA EXPO 2015
Dallas, TX
*October 14-17*​


----------



## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> I do wonder if we'll get a THIRD TiVo Mega announcement, tho.


Chuckle!


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> No, it would record the show once. When you delete it the delete dialog would offer you two options. Delete for all users or Remove from my list. Basically a reference counting system. If a show is only tagged by one user then it would delete without confirmation like it is now.


I'm hoping that the simplest solution would be put in place, effectively keeping the UI 100% identical to how it is now -- only with the addition of a mechanism for setting the current user.

I understand there would be a need to be able to quickly delete a show regardless of watched status for any subscribed users, but I would hope that that god-like power would not be available to all user profiles -- both because of the hazard and because of the additional UI clutter.

Maybe there could be a single "Producer(?)" profile, that has no filters/subscriptions and so always sees everything, and deleting any content from this profile would delete the content for all users (though it would sit in the 'Deleted Recordings' folder, retrievable by any user, until permanently deleted).

This power user could require a 4 digit key code to restrict access. And if other user accounts are also assigned access codes, switching to a non-power user from the power user account could bypass the normal user's access control mechanism. This would allow the users to change their access codes whenever they want, without the home's tech guru having to keep track of everyone's codes.

A guest user account w/ no deletion/modification rights would also be handy.

Oh, and all these user profiles should have individualized access to *content* via TiVo Online, rather than everyone sharing the same email address/password.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Not sure I get the need for the extra deletion steps, but maybe there are scenarios I'm missing. Since a show isn't really deleted until the box needs space, it could remain linked in the other profile until both profiles mark it for deletion, or until other normal rules are met (space needed, etc).

"Space Needed" trumps everything other than KUID, so it works itself out from Tivo's perspective. The users will have to communicate when space gets tight.

Edit: I envision it being really simple. Every profile gets their own completely separate UI, separate 1P's (no visible tagging), and just let the existing "space needed" rules do their job. If there are overlapping 1P's, they can share the recordings without anything new being user-facing. The tags are invisible to the users. There would also be an "All" profile that shows every recording and 1P, where recording priorities can be adjusted to avoid conflicts.

The only thing I *really* want are the profiles to be sticky. I don't want to select my name every time I sit down at the TV. I'd like the box to stay on my profile until it's actively switched. This works nicely for personalizing boxes. The kids bedroom Minis can stay on their stuff, the DVR can stay on my stuff, etc.

I like thinking about it but it's kind of theoretical. Heck knows if they'll ever even do it.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Not sure I get the need for the extra deletion steps, but maybe there are scenarios I'm missing. Since a show isn't really deleted until the box needs space, it could remain linked in the other profile until both profiles mark it for deletion, or until other normal rules are met (space needed, etc).


Once a show is moved to the Recently Deleted folder it could be deleted at any time. If you have Suggestions enabled that could be almost immediately as the Suggestions engine views shows in the Deleted folder as free space. Another issue is that shows are overwritten by oldest recording, not the date they were deleted. So if you're watching a really old show recorded months ago and delete it then it will be the first one overwritten even if there are a dozen other shows you deleted first.

The point is managing recordings using the Deleted folder as a stop gap is not really a viable option. It's too volatile and not user friendly to manage manually. It's intended as a way to quickly restore shows you deleted accidentally. (there use to be no way to restore a show at all once you deleted it)

They need to use some sort of reference counting system where the show is only moved to Deleted when all users who requested it have deleted it from their list. My suggestion of offering a Remove for all users option was just a way to offer the ability to delete something without having to go through each users list one by one. The system would still work OK without that option as long as someone in the family isn't a digital hoarder.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm part of #teamfail. Wrong about Bolt launching today. 

Guess the Super Savings Sale is extended. Who wants to call and find out the new expiration?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Once a show is moved to the Recently Deleted folder it could be deleted at any time. If you have Suggestions enabled that could be almost immediately as the Suggestions engine views shows in the Deleted folder as free space. Another issue is that shows are overwritten by oldest recording, not the date they were deleted. So if you're watching a really old show recorded months ago and delete it then it will be the first one overwritten even if there are a dozen other shows you deleted first.
> 
> The point is managing recordings using the Deleted folder as a stop gap is not really a viable option. It's too volatile and not user friendly to manage manually. It's intended as a way to quickly restore shows you deleted accidentally. (there use to be no way to restore a show at all once you deleted it)
> 
> They need to use some sort of reference counting system where the show is only moved to Deleted when all users who requested it have deleted it from their list. My suggestion of offering a Remove for all users option was just a way to offer the ability to delete something without having to go through each users list one by one. The system would still work OK without that option as long as someone in the family isn't a digital hoarder.


Yes, that's how I thought things would ideally work. The show wouldn't move to recently deleted until all profiles deleted it, space was needed, or was otherwise phased out by everybody's "keep at most" settings. (If one profile says Keep 5, and another keeps 10, both are respected in their own screens.) Suggestions continue to deal with the free space they have, and system-wide space rules continue to apply.

Whatever is scheduled to go will still go. It isn't all that different from a currently shared DVR with all of the existing rules intact. All system rules still apply. It's just personalized filtering of what we see. If someone's a hoarder, they'll have to have that discussion or get their own box, which is fine too. But I think we agree profiles would work great for most.

I could give or take the "delete for everybody" option. My default ideal would be to make profiles as minimalist in the UI as possible, but I wouldn't object to it being there. What's important are the profiles. I just want to get down to 1 cablecard and 1 DVR with a giant HDD.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> No, it would record the show once. When you delete it the delete dialog would offer you two options. Delete for all users or Remove from my list. Basically a reference counting system. If a show is only tagged by one user then it would delete without confirmation like it is now.


How would that be possible in both SD and HD, and your answer does not look at space and what show may not be recorded if recording space runes out on a single TiVo, if padding and space were not any issue, then profiles will work great as they do in Netflix. The TiVo is far more complutated for many reasons making profiles work only for some people and would frustrate many others. I guess as an option there would be no harm, can't use it with ease, just turn it off.
For me a TiVo that my wife controls and one I control is the best solution, and never a argument about TiVo, but does cost an extra $400 to $500 more that just getting a Mini.


----------



## Dan203

I agree that a system like this could get very complicated. I just don't think it needs to be complicated to be useful. I don't think they need per user 1P settings or per user space management. I think that a simple tagging system that allowed you to simply filter the My Shows list so it only displayed recordings associated with a particular user would be very useful, albeit more limited then some here might want. 

I'm talking about making three relatively simple changes...

1) Allow recordings and/or 1Ps to be tagged designating which user(s) want to see that show/recording.

2) Have a way to filter the My Shows list to only display shows tagged for a specific user. 

3) When the list is filtered for a specific user deleting a show/recording from that list will simply untag it for that user. The show is only actually deleted when the last user is untagged. 

The point here is to make it more friendly for a family to share a single TiVo. If you need more complex per user rules then you still have the option of buying multiple TiVos.


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## moyekj

I'm in the camp that says each heavy DVR user needs to have his/her own DVR. Roamio Pro is just for me in my house. User profiles the way people some want it would be a nightmare to program and would probably screw things up for people like me that don't care about it.


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## Dan203

moyekj said:


> I'm in the camp that says each heavy DVR user needs to have his/her own DVR. Roamio Pro is just for me in my house. User profiles the way people some want it would be a nightmare to program and would probably screw things up for people like me that don't care about it.


I agree. The system I'm describing would be more for the family that currently shares a DVR but would like to have a way to filter My Shows to only display the stuff they're interested in.


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## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> I'm in the camp that says each heavy DVR user needs to have his/her own DVR. Roamio Pro is just for me in my house. User profiles the way people some want it would be a nightmare to program and would probably screw things up for people like me that don't care about it.


I would love profiles just to keep certain shows separate. So I would have a profile just for news. Then I would have one for comedies, documentaries, etc. And then I would have one for all my GFs Lifetime recordings.


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## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> I would love profiles just to keep certain shows separate. So I would have a profile just for news. Then I would have one for comedies, documentaries, etc. And then I would have one for all my GFs Lifetime recordings.


 It's not trivial, but you can somewhat achieve that kind of thing using auto record wishlists instead of channel-specific OPs, though the problem with that is within the wishlist folder it's still a flat structure which doesn't really work well.

ReplayTVs used to have the ability to create your own custom folders named however you like, but that would be way un-TiVo like.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> I agree that a system like this could get very complicated. I just don't think it needs to be complicated to be useful. I don't think they need per user 1P settings or per user space management. I think that a simple tagging system that allowed you to simply filter the My Shows list so it only displayed recordings associated with a particular user would be very useful, albeit more limited then some here might want.
> 
> I'm talking about making three relatively simple changes...
> 
> 1) Allow recordings and/or 1Ps to be tagged designating which user(s) want to see that show/recording.
> 
> 2) Have a way to filter the My Shows list to only display shows tagged for a specific user.
> 
> 3) When the list is filtered for a specific user deleting a show/recording from that list will simply untag it for that user. The show is only actually deleted when the last user is untagged.
> 
> The point here is to make it more friendly for a family to share a single TiVo. If you need more complex per user rules then you still have the option of buying multiple TiVos.


This is a good, simple plan that would meet many users' needs with minimal work on TiVo's part (which means it may actually be implemented at some point). I like it.


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## krkaufman

lessd said:


> For me a TiVo that my wife controls and one I control is the best solution, and never a argument about TiVo, but *does cost an extra $400 to $500 more* that just getting a Mini.


Right. And that's just for one additional DVR, which doesn't account for children (woe the Joseph Smith adherent), parents, uncles, aunts or guests (who should have minimal to nil "edit" rights.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I agree that a system like this could get very complicated. I just don't think it needs to be complicated to be useful. I don't think they need per user 1P settings or per user space management. I think that a simple tagging system that allowed you to simply filter the My Shows list so it only displayed recordings associated with a particular user would be very useful, albeit more limited then some here might want.
> 
> I'm talking about making three relatively simple changes...
> 
> 1) Allow recordings and/or 1Ps to be tagged designating which user(s) want to see that show/recording.
> 
> 2) Have a way to filter the My Shows list to only display shows tagged for a specific user.
> 
> 3) When the list is filtered for a specific user deleting a show/recording from that list will simply untag it for that user. The show is only actually deleted when the last user is untagged.
> 
> The point here is to make it more friendly for a family to share a single TiVo. If you need more complex per user rules then you still have the option of buying multiple TiVos.


to me, this makes it less friendly for a family. This coming from someone with a wife and kids.

I'd have to switch in and out of folders to see what has or hasn't been deleted when space is needed. I'd have to regularly assign tags to content.

All for what? Not to see a few extra shows in the list? To save the occasional extra 'page down' key press?

Tivo's current way of showing content isn't perfect, but it's simple.


----------



## trip1eX

krkaufman said:


> If you want to pad all your programs, yes, 6+ tuners is needed. As is user profiles. And buying a separate TiVo for each person in the household should be unnecessary.


 You'd pay hundreds more for a model with more tuners anyway. And then have to get a Mini for the other tv. You'd most likely be looking at $300(extra) minimum to cover 2 TVs between the cost of the Mini and extra cost of the Tivo with more tuners. Or you could buy another 4 tuner OTA Tivo for $300 and skip the Mini. Same difference except the latter solution is available today.

Tivo isn't going to cater to edge cases at least not without a price tag to match.

And user profiles usefulness are dubious. I know some would just love nothing better than to manage those lists. But my gut says most don't care. Any usefulness is canceled out by complexity and extra work.


----------



## mrsean

trip1eX said:


> And user profiles usefulness are dubious. I know some would just love nothing better than to manage those lists. But my gut says most don't care. Any usefulness is canceled out by complexity and extra work.


It there was a poll taken today on most wanted new features user profiles would most likely be in the top 5. They have been at least in the top 10 of requested features for the past 3 years. So I'd say I a significant number of folks do care and I'd bet it would be in the majority among the total userbase. Most people do not have the means or want to purchase 2 DVRs.


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## b_scott

I think I watch a lot of TV, but it's always down to zero recordings at least a couple times a week. So really profiles would be sort of a waste of time for us.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> to me, this makes it less friendly for a family. This coming from someone with a wife and kids.
> 
> I'd have to switch in and out of folders to see what has or hasn't been deleted when space is needed. I'd have to regularly assign tags to content.
> 
> All for what? Not to see a few extra shows in the list? To save the occasional extra 'page down' key press?
> 
> Tivo's current way of showing content isn't perfect, but it's simple.


Well then you could just not to use it. The default would be for it to function as it does now. Using profiles would be optional for those families that actually want it. And even if it weren't optional you could still make it work as it does now by creating a single profile called "family" or something and just using that for everything.

I can't understand why people crap on new ideas because they think the way it works now is fine. Progress is inevitable, adapt or die.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Feels like almost every benign feature wishlist discussion becomes a debate. You'd almost think Tivo's demographic was 70 year olds who want you off their lawn.

Dual tuner? No! It&#8217;ll cannibalize single tuner sales.

Hulu? NO! People aren&#8217;t used to commercials on their Tivo!

A free space meter? No! They&#8217;re inaccurate! Customer support calls will be through the roof!

Three or four tuners? No! My god man, think of the horror it will do to the 2-tuner boxes!

An extender? No! For the love of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Tivo will die overnight if everybody replaces extra DVRs with extenders!

Some of my favorite (and actual) stupid arguments that were posted here over the years.


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> ...
> 
> I can't understand why people crap on new ideas because they think the way it works now is fine. Progress is inevitable, adapt or die.


It maybe that people: 
have found they don't like "new ideas" (change) and like things the way they are and feel new ideas doesn't always make things better (Think Windows 8). 
or that they are worried that even if the "new ideas" (change) sound good that the end product will be messed up and need fixing for an extended period of time. 
or it maybe that some people think time spent on something they don't want or could care less about means something they do want and/or do care about will not get worked on or fixed.
In any event given TiVo's history of taking years to get something to work correctly (think Premiere & HD UI) or how unhappy some recent "new ideas" (think OnePass) made people because something they wanted got removed. I don't find being against a major UI change is an unreasonable position.

That said I would favor User Profiles (if done correctly and it didn't result in the loss of any other functionality) because I think it would be good for TiVo competitively. But I would never use profiles and having them is not on my list of things I personally would like.


----------



## thefisch

I like having options that can enable when needed or desired and not forced on you. As far as profiles go, I'd be happy with basic folder assignment for shows to be selected when setting record/OP options or changed later. So my shows are in my folder, etc. Complete profiles with separate to do lists, one pass manager, user permissions, etc. is too much to ask for in my opinion.


----------



## trip1eX

mrsean said:


> It there was a poll taken today on most wanted new features user profiles would most likely be in the top 5. They have been at least in the top 10 of requested features for the past 3 years. So I'd say I a significant number of folks do care and I'd bet it would be in the majority among the total userbase. Most people do not have the means or want to purchase 2 DVRs.


Among who though? Many on this board aren't the typical customer. Probably most aren't.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Well then you could just not to use it. The default would be for it to function as it does now. Using profiles would be optional for those families that actually want it. And even if it weren't optional you could still make it work as it does now by creating a single profile called "family" or something and just using that for everything.
> 
> I can't understand why people crap on new ideas because they think the way it works now is fine. Progress is inevitable, adapt or die.


New ideas don't equate to progress. I never had any trouble finding my recorded show on my Tivo despite my wife and kids also (having) shows on the Tivo.

And I'd rather see work on something more core to the user experience.

AT least those wanting profiles have an option today.


----------



## trip1eX

b_scott said:


> I think I watch a lot of TV, but it's always down to zero recordings at least a couple times a week. So really profiles would be sort of a waste of time for us.


Yeah I think the people that want user profiles are the archivers. The ones that want to store 5 years worth of tv on their Tivo and have it all cataloged and appropriately assigned to members of their household.

The time shifters, who mainly carry a running buffer of shows, could care less and I think time shifters represent the average customer.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> And I'd rather see work on something more core to the user experience.


Like what?



trip1eX said:


> AT least those wanting profiles have an option today.


What option is that? To buy multiple TiVos costing several hundred dollars each, plus any "outlet fees" your cable company decides to charge? You really think that's a viable option for most people?

I see suggestions for things that have zero effect on me all the time. Things like channel logos in the guide or longer live TV buffers, neither of which effect me because I never watch live TV. But I don't complain about them. In fact user profiles wouldn't really help me at all because me and my wife have his/her Roamio Pros. But it would help my Sister's family which has a single 4 tuner Premier and a few Minis around the house.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The people who want profiles are families with varying tastes, who don't want to have to weed through a bunch of other shows to find theirs.

Archiving doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's the frequency of other people's recordings (not long term storage) that can make it a hassle to find your own. Skip a day, and your shows are buried.

We can (and do) have multiple boxes. The point of the feature is to help make it easier to reduce the # of DVRs, not rely on more.


----------



## Kremlar

Can you guys start a different thread? I subscribed to this one in hopes of hearing news about the new Bolt.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The people who want profiles are families with varying tastes, who don't want to have to weed through a bunch of other shows to find theirs.


It would also help with situations where two people in the house watch the same show but separately. This would allow each user to "delete" the show when they were done watching it without actually deleting it accidentally before someone else had seen it.


----------



## aaronwt

Kremlar said:


> Can you guys start a different thread? I subscribed to this one in hopes of hearing news about the new Bolt.


I'm still hoping the Bolt will be released before September 9th, 2016.


----------



## atmuscarella

Kremlar said:


> Can you guys start a different thread? I subscribed to this one in hopes of hearing news about the new Bolt.


Until TiVo Officially announces it everything that can be said about the "Bolt" has been said several times and most of what has been said is pure speculation and will end up being wrong. Of course there are likely some in the know who have posted "speculation" that is really "fact", they just can't admit it.

My speculation  list is: 
3 new units 4 tuner OTA, 4 Tuner OTA or Cable, & 6 tuner cable
All units with MOCA & "Steam" (to android, iOS, & Tivo On line) built in.
All units able to stream 4K/UHD content from the on line service providing 4K/UHD (Netflix & Amazon for now).
New software update to support the above and maybe some other new features - which will also be release for the Roamios & Premieres.
All units to be marginally faster than the comparable Roamio, but nothing spectacular.
and of course as soon as the Bolt is released there will be a whole new section just for it and this thread will become irrelevant (ok maybe it is irrelevant now ).


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Like what?


like be smart enough to not add an hour to a football game if another football game is being recorded right after on the same channel.



Dan203 said:


> What option is that? To buy multiple TiVos costing several hundred dollars each, plus any "outlet fees" your cable company decides to charge? You really think that's a viable option for most people?


Well a 4 tuner refurb is $300 with lifetime. A Mini is $150. Anyone with more than 1 tv is going to add a Mini anyway so it's only $150 more right now to add a 4 tuner Tivo instead. True you'd have a cable card fee for non-ota use. But $150 more and a small fee a month sure seems like a viable option for a customer already shelling out a good sum for a Tivo and monthly cable service.



Dan203 said:


> I see suggestions for things that have zero effect on me all the time. Things like channel logos in the guide or longer live TV buffers, neither of which effect me because I never watch live TV. But I don't complain about them. In fact user profiles wouldn't really help me at all because me and my wife have his/her Roamio Pros. But it would help my Sister's family which has a single 4 tuner Premier and a few Minis around the house.


 I complain about features that I don't think the average customer cares about. And when I can't see that they add anything in the grand scheme of things. I think both apply here. it's a zero sum feature. See a few less shows in your list. But have to tag them and switch in/out of profiles for regular viewing and administration not to mention an xtra option to cycle thru when deleting a show. And I think the average customer wouldn't use any kind of profile system.


----------



## trip1eX

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The people who want profiles are families with varying tastes, who don't want to have to weed through a bunch of other shows to find theirs.
> 
> Archiving doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's the frequency of other people's recordings (not long term storage) that can make it a hassle to find your own. Skip a day, and your shows are buried.
> 
> We can (and do) have multiple boxes. The point of the feature is to help make it easier to reduce the # of DVRs, not rely on more.


I have a family. It isn't a hassle. If it were just my shows I'd still have to scan my shows for the show I want to watch. Same difference. Maybe I would have to hit 'page down' 1 less time or 2 less times?

That would be great if there wasn't a trade off. But there is. Now you have to manage the system and switch in and out of views. I don't see any convenience benefit because of that.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> like be smart enough to not add an hour to a football game if another football game is being recorded right after on the same channel.


I don't watch sports so the current system works just fine for me.



trip1eX said:


> I complain about features that I don't think the average customer cares about. And when I can't see that they add anything in the grand scheme of things. I think both apply here. it's a zero sum feature. See a few less shows in your list. But have to tag them and switch in/out of profiles for regular viewing and administration not to mention an xtra option to cycle thru when deleting a show. And I think the average customer wouldn't use any kind of profile system.


I disagree. I think the average family would like this feature. And it's not just about filtering My Shows. The same tags could be used to filter the To Do List so you could quickly look through it and ensure your shows are recordings. They could also apply parental controls so that kids couldn't even see Mom or Dad's list without a pin of some sort. (right now parental controls only prevent Jr. from playing a naughty movie, it doesn't prevent him from seeing it on the list or reading the description)


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> I have a family. It isn't a hassle. If it were just my shows I'd still have to scan my shows for the show I want to watch. Same difference. Maybe I would have to hit 'page down' 1 less time or 2 less times?
> 
> That would be great if there wasn't a trade off. But there is. Now you have to manage the system and switch in and out of views. I don't see any convenience benefit because of that.


Depends on how you sort the list. If you're looking for something specific then sorting it alphabetical and scanning for the show you're looking for is no big deal. But I personally prefer to leave the list sorted by date so I can see all the stuff that recorded recently. If that was intermixed with a bunch of stuff my family had recorded recently then it wold be a lot less useful.

See you're only thinking about the feature in the context of how you use your TiVo. But there are other people/families that use them differently.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I don't watch sports so the current system works just fine for me.


It applies to the padding of any program afaik.



Dan203 said:


> I disagree. I think the average family would like this feature. And it's not just about filtering My Shows. The same tags could be used to filter the To Do List so you could quickly look through it and ensure your shows are recordings. They could also apply parental controls so that kids couldn't even see Mom or Dad's list without a pin of some sort. (right now parental controls only prevent Jr. from playing a naughty movie, it doesn't prevent him from seeing it on the list or reading the description)


Just what the average family needs. More complication. If it ain't broke. Don't fix it.


----------



## HarperVision

atmuscarella said:


> Until TiVo Officially announces it everything that can be said about the "Bolt" has been said several times and most of what has been said is pure speculation and will end up being wrong. * Of course there are likely some in the know who have posted "speculation" that is really "fact", they just can't admit it.* .......


Dang, I've been outed!


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Depends on how you sort the list. If you're looking for something specific then sorting it alphabetical and scanning for the show you're looking for is no big deal. But I personally prefer to leave the list sorted by date so I can see all the stuff that recorded recently. If that was intermixed with a bunch of stuff my family had recorded recently then it wold be a lot less useful.
> 
> See you're only thinking about the feature in the context of how you use your TiVo. But there are other people/families that use them differently.


We leave ours sorted by date. Never been a hassle.

Even if just my personal shows were shown to me I'd still have to scan the list for the show I wanted to watch. Maybe the show I wanted to see would be on the first page more often. So it might save me a few page down key presses.

Great except that doesn't strike me as outweighing the hassles of administering profiles and switching in/out of profiles every time I sit down to use the Tivo.


----------



## Dan203

What if switching profiles was as simple as pressing the D button on the remote to cycle through them? (currently not used) And what if the default action for creating a 1P/WL/Recording was to set it to All with a secondary, optional, screen that allowed you to select users only if you wanted to? (like setting options, you can accept the default or manage them individually if you want) 

Plus how often do you really setup new 1Ps/WL/Recordings? It's not like it's something you'd have to manage constantly.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> What if switching profiles was as simple as pressing the D button on the remote to cycle through them? (currently not used) And what if the default action for creating a 1P/WL/Recording was to set it to All with a secondary, optional, screen that allowed you to select users only if you wanted to? (like setting options, you can accept the default or manage them individually if you want)
> 
> Plus how often do you really setup new 1Ps/WL/Recordings? It's not like it's something you'd have to manage constantly.


Pressing the D button probably wouldn't be any easier then using the arrows because the thumb has to go back to arrows anyway to select a show.

Maybe there are better solutions.

How about just say the name of your show to instantly find it? 

And/or put a fingerprint reader on the OK button of the remote. Now it knows who you are everytime you pick up the remote. And then it learns what shows you watch and starts showing them first on the MY Shows list.


----------



## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> Pressing the D button probably wouldn't be any easier then using the arrows because the thumb has to go back to arrows anyway to select a show.
> 
> Maybe there are better solutions.
> 
> How about just say the name of your show to instantly find it?
> ...............


What if I don't remember the name? That already happens too often to me.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> Pressing the D button probably wouldn't be any easier then using the arrows because the thumb has to go back to arrows anyway to select a show.
> 
> Maybe there are better solutions.
> 
> How about just say the name of your show to instantly find it?
> 
> And/or put a fingerprint reader on the OK button of the remote. Now it knows who you are everytime you pick up the remote. And then it learns what shows you watch and starts showing them first on the MY Shows list.


Rumor has it the Bolt will have voice search


----------



## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> ........And/or put a fingerprint reader on the OK button of the remote. Now it knows who you are everytime you pick up the remote. And then it learns what shows you watch and starts showing them first on the MY Shows list.


I love the fingerprint on a button idea, like the home button on your iPhone! :up:


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Rumor has it the Bolt will have voice search


I am betting not. If TiVo wanted to try something with voice they could/should do it with their iOS or Android app first.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> I am betting not. If TiVo wanted to try something with voice they could/should do it with their iOS or Android app first.


I think that would be terrible. At least for me, the last thing I want to do is need to use a cellphone/tablet as a remote. Voice search works very well with the Amazon remotes. So it is certainly possible to do it with the TiVo remote.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> I think that would be terrible. At least for me, the last thing I want to do is need to use a cellphone/tablet as a remote. Voice search works very well with the Amazon remotes. So it is certainly possible to do it with the TiVo remote.


But it would give them an idea if people would actually use it before investing in developing a remote that can do it reliably.


----------



## slowbiscuit

moyekj said:


> I'm in the camp that says each heavy DVR user needs to have his/her own DVR. Roamio Pro is just for me in my house. User profiles the way people some want it would be a nightmare to program and would probably screw things up for people like me that don't care about it.


I would think Tivo would be in this camp too (obviously), which may be why they've never seriously pursued profiles.


----------



## jonw747

slowbiscuit said:


> I would think Tivo would be in this camp too (obviously), which may be why they've never seriously pursued profiles.


But they already support categories. Does anyone have a reason they shouldn't add the ability to create a custom category and call it a folder?

It can't be too much harder to show a list of programs marked as record for "wife" than it is to show all the movies.

It wouldn't solve every problem, but it would help a lot.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Rumor has it the Bolt will have voice search





atmuscarella said:


> I am betting not. If TiVo wanted to try something with voice they could/should do it with their iOS or Android app first.


I'm betting it will, based on this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10631570#post10631570



HarperVision said:


> Could this statement by TiVo's Jeff Klugman be a hint and unintended confirmation that the Bolt will provide a "Voice Search" feature, through the remote I would guess.
> 
> *Jeff Klugman, EVP and general manager of products and revenues for TiVo, said "I don't know" when questioned whether the company would build a TiVo app for the Apple TV. Klugman also pointed out that TiVo offers a number of the same features as Apple TV, including universal, voice-powered search. But he noted that Apple TV has "not yet integrated the linear television experience" as TiVo has.*
> 
> Does he just mean maybe the smart device apps we currently have, or is there something I'm missing?


And subsequent blog by Dave Zatz:
http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-09/tivo-voice-control/


----------



## csell

How would you specify who you are or what profile you want it recorded to? Obviously it would require extra steps during the recording process and more clicks... What if you want a show for both you and your wife. How do you specify that? If you specify its for both you and your wife, does it show up in both folders? If its in both folders and your wife deletes it, does it delete it from my folder as well? What if you setup to record a show for your profile and then later your wife finds the show and also wants to record it. How would that work?

Anyway, its not straight forward and would require a lot more to the UI and certainly making recording more complex (if you choose to to do it).


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The Fierce Cable article was modified days ago to remove the words "voice-powered".

But the app does have voice dictation. Something beyond that would be cool but I can't really get on board with extrapolating anything further from an indirect quote that was evidently misunderstood.

Such a new remote would likely pass through the FCC, and Zatz would be all over it.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Fierce Cable article was modified days ago to remove the words "voice-powered". But the app does have voice dictation. Something beyond that would be cool but I can't really get on board with extrapolating anything further from an indirect quote that was evidently misunderstood.
> 
> Such a new remote would likely pass through the FCC, and Zatz would be all over it.


Oh I didn't realize that, thanks. I'm sure it was more TiVo demanding they remove it though, the same as those YouTube videos of the UI.

As far as the remote, doesn't the slide (and maybe the regular Roamio remote) have those little holes on the front of it IIRC? I'm not home and can't check, but I always wondered if those were for a mic (or maybe it's for the speaker for the remote finder feature?)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> Oh I didn't realize that, thanks. I'm sure it was more TiVo demanding they remove it though, the same as those YouTube videos of the UI.
> 
> As far as the remote, doesn't the slide (and maybe the regular Roamio remote) have those little holes on the front of it IIRC? I'm not home and can't check, but I always wondered if those were for a mic (or maybe it's for the speaker for the remote finder feature?)


They're probably working on it to some degree, I just don't think there's evidence that it's imminent. We'll find out in short order though.

The slide has the holes. If I put my finger over them, the tune is muffled down to a whisper.


----------



## jonw747

csell said:


> How would you specify who you are or what profile you want it recorded to? Obviously it would require extra steps during the recording process and more clicks... What if you want a show for both you and your wife. How do you specify that? If you specify its for both you and your wife, does it show up in both folders? If its in both folders and your wife deletes it, does it delete it from my folder as well? What if you setup to record a show for your profile and then later your wife finds the show and also wants to record it. How would that work?
> 
> Anyway, its not straight forward and would require a lot more to the UI and certainly making recording more complex (if you choose to to do it).


The folder method could certainly be straight forward:

- you could specify a custom folder in the season pass manager, this could include canned categories to avoid the need to type.
- if you want a category for shows both you and your wife watch then create a category for it or select a pre-existing one such as "Parents"
- if someone deletes a show it's gone
- if you're not happy with the folder a show is showing up in, then select a different folder and all the episodes should move there

I could be wrong, but I don't see the deletion issue as a major problem. If two or more people are sharing a show, but not watching it together, they'd just need to make sure that the others had finished before deleting.

Not every conceivable issue has to be addressed before a new feature can be added, and there are certainly some use cases where multiple DVR's make the most sense.

btw, the problem with adding voice control to any product is having the back-end server technology to make it work. TiVo could possibly provide a solution hosted by a 3rd party, but that's not free.


----------



## Jonathan_S

csell said:


> How would you specify who you are or what profile you want it recorded to? Obviously it would require extra steps during the recording process and more clicks... What if you want a show for both you and your wife. How do you specify that? If you specify its for both you and your wife, does it show up in both folders? If its in both folders and your wife deletes it, does it delete it from my folder as well? What if you setup to record a show for your profile and then later your wife finds the show and also wants to record it. How would that work?
> 
> Anyway, its not straight forward and would require a lot more to the UI and certainly making recording more complex (if you choose to to do it).


I don't think that last example would be all that much more complicated.

TiVo already has code to recognize whether a relevant One Pass exists for a show, because it changes the option when looking at the show, or an episode of it, from "Create One Pass" to "Modify One Pass".

With profiles: if a One Pass existed that was tagged to another profile the submenu could be expanded with one more option: the old "Modify One Pass" and a new "Add One Pass to <profile name>". 
Then any episode recorded would display in the now playing list for that profile as well.

Then under the main One Pass settings there could be a submenu for profiles with a list of all the profiles and the ability to hit thumbs up on the profiles to cause that One Passes recordings to be visible in that given profile. So want to to show up on both your profile and your wifes? Just thumbs up both those profiles and it will. Want it to stop showing up on on? Just hit thumbs down to remove the thumbs. (Just like selecting favorite channels from the channel list)
Set a One Pass with default options and it's only tagged to the current profile. If you want it tagged to more you'd selection the options just like you do now if you want a non-default setting for any other One Pass option.

This would still have the (less complex) unified recording settings Dan203 was suggesting. So everyone interested in that should would have to come to some agreement on Channel, KUID, KAM, padding, repeats, etc. Making the TiVo itself maintain and conflict resolve all _that_ would significantly drive up the complexity. But a simple profile filter for the Now Playing list doesn't seem _too_ complex.


----------



## thefisch

I like the folder idea that it set as an option when you record and can be changed later. For me, it would mainly be an organization tool to sift through recordings. Perhaps it could be used as a filter option for the to-do list to help folks who monitor it closely for their shows. With the folders, then your family members know not to mess with the stuff in your folder. If more than one person is interested in a show, then you just reassign the show to another folder to pass along shows between the interested parties. So if my wife finishes a show and doesn't know if I watched it, she can move it to my folder. Then I can delete after I watched it. Sure you could end up in an infinite loop of passing/reassigning shows but eventually it will get deleted which is better than having it deleted before you get to see it.


----------



## trip1eX

RAther see the Tivo identify who I am and then learn what shows I watch and display them first in the My shows list. Simple no maintenance. No fuss. You could thumbs down a show to boot it from your Regular viewing list. No folders to go in and out of. The shows outside your regular viewing list are just displayed below your section. Same long list. Same organization.

The poor man's way to identify the user would be to cycle the green D button as Dan mentioned. Or, have the user create a short combination of 3 or 4 buttons to identify their self. If you want Tivo to track your regular shows enter the code when you sit down.


The better way would be do it automatically like thru a fingerprint reader.


----------



## TazExprez

The refurbished TiVo Roamio is out of stock. I hope this means we get a Bolt soon.


----------



## Series3Sub

krkaufman said:


> It's my understanding that Sezmi also launched in a very limited region, owing to being tied to those broadcast agreements.
> 
> Sigh... Would have been nice to see how they implemented user profiles. (edit: video demo; distinct buttons for each user profile on the remote seems an odd way to have gone)
> 
> -----
> edit: What the heck, is that subwoofer thing the antenna? (link)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Amazon review excerpt) There are obvious similarities between Tivo and Sezmi, but where Sezmi primarily differs is in allowing viewers/users to create their own customized 'zones' which learns their own viewing habits and records their own shows independent of other users. A user's own interface is customizable by setting a color scheme to differentiate it from other users, and each is accessed via a color-coded button on the remote, which all works quite well, albeit the switch between users can be rather slow (more on speed issues further on). This is a nice feature as it allows separation of content for families or multi-viewer homes, where peoples viewing tastes may differ (husband: science and sci-fi, wife: reality and home/garden, kids: cartoons and music) etc.​


Sezmi could be used anywhere you could get OTA and worked in any city. The Sezmi system was offered nationwide at both Amazon and Best Buy. However, it was the "cable" channels that were launched in limited markets with plans to be available in just about every city, but the "cable channels" never got past the very few cites where Sezmi provided them via OTA multiplex/mux, and the PQ for the "cable channels" was pretty bad according to reviews. I also believe Sezmi did offer VOD from a few movie studios via internet connection.

Again, while there was some reliability problems with the HDD in the boxes (too many failures like both some TiVo refurbs and Dish refurbs often experience, unless they put in a NEW HDD), the software itself seemed well designed and everyone seemed to like the Sezmi very much--at its core OTA and streaming functions, not the stupid attempt to provide a few lousy "cable channels" at an additional charge. Again, the really low like $2 per month fee for guide data, etc. was easily accepted by those who got one. I was ready to get one, too, then they closed shop. Too bad because the Sezmi was much more a feature rich and well designed UI like TiVo is, but with Profiles built in and Sezmi was easily superior compared to what Channel Master was offering at time, and Sezmi still superior to what Channel Master is offering even today. Competition is good, but Sezmi was very poorly marketed.


----------



## Series3Sub

Dan203 said:


> What if switching profiles was as simple as pressing the D button on the remote to cycle through them? (currently not used) And what if the default action for creating a 1P/WL/Recording was to set it to All with a secondary, optional, screen that allowed you to select users only if you wanted to? (like setting options, you can accept the default or manage them individually if you want)
> 
> Plus how often do you really setup new 1Ps/WL/Recordings? It's not like it's something you'd have to manage constantly.


Actually that is EXACTLY how Sezmi set up the Profiles. You just selected the Letter/color on the remote and it changed profile for everything. Sezmi designed it much like how Netflix provides profiles and I've heard only positive things about Netflix--finally--providing profiles. Yes, with the Sezmi it was the press of one simple button.

Every family is different. Let me assure you, there are many families who just sometimes resent having to wade through their teens' recordings of countless stupid old sitcoms. In fact, there are families who have one Hopper for the kids (and I mean teens), and one for the parents, and they LOVE that.


----------



## tarheelblue32

TazExprez said:


> The refurbished TiVo Roamio is out of stock. I hope this means we get a Bolt soon.


It could just mean they ran out of refurb Roamios.


----------



## Series3Sub

jonw747 said:


> But they already support categories. Does anyone have a reason they shouldn't add the ability to create a custom category and call it a folder?
> 
> It can't be too much harder to show a list of programs marked as record for "wife" than it is to show all the movies.
> 
> It wouldn't solve every problem, but it would help a lot.


And this is what Dish DVR's have had for many years: Custom Folders for recordings (in addition to the default Genres (the same as TiVo Categories) such as Sports, Movies, News, Education, etc. that can be created for however you want to organize recordings be it by family member name or your personal named folders such as "Game Shows" "Paranormal," etc. It is a great feature I and many others use. We can't imagine NOT having the Custom Folder feature. Further, one can set timers so that the recordings will be automatically sent into the Custom Folder, but that recording can still be accessed by selecting the organization (just as simple as done on the Roamios today by pressing one button) to any of the default folders such as Folders by (show) Title or Genres, etc., so a single show can be accessed from either the Custom Folder or one of the other default folders. It is a very easy to use and powerful feature.

Yes, Custom Folders or some sort of Profile folders would be nice on TiVo.

This is something TiVo could and should do. It would be so TiVo to have such a feature.


----------



## Series3Sub

TazExprez said:


> The refurbished TiVo Roamio is out of stock. I hope this means we get a Bolt soon.


I think TiVo has a date they can and will not deviate from because they have to get the Bolt out for the coming Christmas shopping season, and October, the first month of the last quarter is usually when stuff is sent to the retailers for Christmas buying time to be on those shelves for Holiday promotions.


----------



## davezatz

Series3Sub said:


> I think TiVo has a date they can and will not deviate from because they have to get the Bolt out for the coming Christmas shopping season, and October, the first month of the last quarter is usually when stuff is sent to the retailers for Christmas buying time to be on those shelves for Holiday promotions.


I agree. And I think we're close. Having said that, they had a similar plan with Premiere. Between the new hardware and HDUI not being ready for primetime, sales were delayed until spring. <insert obligatory joke about HDUI still not being complete here>


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Based on this image people seem to think the Bolt will be sort of humped... [...] Also I'm not sure this isn't just a cutesy caricature of the actual box and the real one wont be curved at all.


I've seen the box and can confirm the design. It's an asymmetric hump, positioned like 1/3rd of the way in on the left. It looks better than I expected, but still unusual and obviously not stackable. Still not certain what the physical dimensions of the storage are or if its user replaceable. Also, the Cablelabs filing sent us sideways. It's not one OTA and two cable-_only_.


----------



## series5orpremier

davezatz said:


> It's not one OTA and two cable-_only_.


If I read this correctly you're saying one of the cable ones still has an OTA option, like now. I had imagined that to be most likely. The simplest thing to eliminate would be the Roamio Plus analogy since it only differs from the Pro by a smaller HD.

And it wouldn't be a big deal if they delayed the launch til next year. That would coincide with the three year cycle. With all the Roamio buy-in over the last couple of years it's not like there's tons of pent-up demand that would get them a boatload of sales.


----------



## aaronwt

series5orpremier said:


> If I read this correctly you're saying one of the cable ones still has an OTA option, like now. I had imagined that to be most likely. The simplest thing to eliminate would be the Roamio Plus analogy since it only differs from the Pro by a smaller HD.
> 
> And it wouldn't be a big deal if they delayed the launch til next year. With all the Roamio buy-in over the last couple of years it's not like there's tons of pent-up demand that would get them a boatload of sales.


It's always bad to miss the Christmas shopping season. With many things, sales over just those three months can equal or exceed all sales during the rest of the year.


----------



## atmuscarella

davezatz said:


> I agree. And I think we're close. Having said that, they had a similar plan with Premiere. Between the new hardware and HDUI not being ready for primetime, sales were delayed until spring. <insert obligatory joke about HDUI still not being complete here>


In my opinion TiVo made a significant error in not releasing the Premiere with just the SDUI in the fall of 2009. The majorly buggy HDUI that the Premiere started with caused lots of unhappiness and down graded TiVo's reputation significantly. If they had waited until they released the 4 tuner Premiere a few years latter to release the HDUI TiVo would have been much better off.

That said they may again be having software issues causing a push back in the release. Unfortunately this time they may have no choice if the units are all 4K/UHD as suspected they have to get them to work correctly. Also given how good the Roamio units are, they really need to make sure the new "Bolts" work as well.


----------



## trip1eX

atmuscarella said:


> In my opinion TiVo made a significant error in not releasing the Premiere with just the SDUI in the fall of 2009. The majorly buggy HDUI that the Premiere started with caused lots of unhappiness and down graded TiVo's reputation significantly. If they had waited until they released the 4 tuner Premiere a few years latter to release the HDUI TiVo would have been much better off.
> 
> That said they may again be having software issues causing a push back in the release. Unfortunately this time they may have no choice if the units are all 4K/UHD as suspected they have to get them to work correctly. Also given how good the Roamio units are, they really need to make sure the new "Bolts" work as well.


Yep Premiere hurt Tivo. I sold mine and went to WMC because it was so slow. Definitely don't want to release a new dvr that isn't ready for primetime.

I don't see a hurry to get 4k out there.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Since Rogers basically committed to the 3rd quarter, it's likely gonna drop pretty soon.

I agree that the Premiere almost had no good reason to exist with so many stability issues, the HDUI being so slow, and basically doing nothing new. The Elite/XL4 changed that somewhat. 4 tuners were cool enough to tolerate being even slower than the 2-tuner boxes, but I still had resentment. slow. as. hell.

Roamio fixed that. But being only 2 years old, I haven't even gotten my money's worth yet, much less need 4K. I don't think I'll be an early adopter but it's good that Tivo is joining 4K at the right time.


----------



## innocentfreak

I just hope we see a 6 tuner with more than 3TBs of space stock. My sister wants to upgrade since she is using my old TiVo HDs. 

If I pick up a new 6 tuner I could give her my 2 Premiere XLs. 

Beyond that I can't think of anything that I think TiVo would add exclusive to the TiVo Bolt that would make me want to upgrade. I don't plan on replacing my Plasma anytime soon so I don't see 4K in my future especially since I don't stream.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> Well then you could just not to use it. The default would be for it to function as it does now. Using profiles would be optional for those families that actually want it. And even if it weren't optional you could still make it work as it does now by creating a single profile called "family" or something and just using that for everything.
> 
> I can't understand why people crap on new ideas because they think the way it works now is fine. Progress is inevitable, adapt or die.


LOL. Not all new ideas are good ideas.

But in this case sure, give both options.


----------



## krkaufman

atmuscarella said:


> That said they may again be having software issues causing a push back in the release. Unfortunately this time they may have no choice if the units are all 4K/UHD as suspected they have to get them to work correctly. Also given how good the Roamio units are, they really need to make sure the new "Bolts" work as well.


Does anyone have knowledge of recent (last year or so) staffing changes to TiVo's design/engineering department? Maybe TiVo hired away some "top" Microsoft talent and have since adopted Microsoft's approach of creating throw-away products, to be avoided like the plague, every second release.


----------



## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> It's always bad to miss the Christmas shopping season. With many things, sales over just those three months can equal or exceed all sales during the rest of the year.


Yup... it's not called "Black Friday" merely for the depressing picture it paints of the state of society.


----------



## krkaufman

Series3Sub said:


> Actually that is EXACTLY how Sezmi set up the Profiles. You just selected the Letter/color on the remote and it changed profile for everything. Sezmi designed it much like how Netflix provides profiles and I've heard only positive things about Netflix--finally--providing profiles. Yes, with the Sezmi it was the press of one simple button.


Well, not "exactly" how Sezmi did it. As I included previously, Sezmi opted to have distinct buttons on the remote control for each allowed profile, rather than a single button to toggle between profiles or to launch a profile selection dialog.

Or did the "Blue" button allow for toggling/selection? (image)

I'd love to see much more advanced user identification mechanisms, but a single selection button would be a great start. (Eventually, I'd hope that one could select multiple users present during a viewing session, with the TiVo targeting filtering for either the intersection or union of the subscribed content, per user request.)


----------



## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> The poor man's way to identify the user would be to cycle the green D button as Dan mentioned. Or, have the user create a short combination of 3 or 4 buttons to identify their self. If you want Tivo to track your regular shows enter the code when you sit down.
> 
> The better way would be do it automatically like thru a fingerprint reader.


Fingerprint reader, voice or facial recognition, smartphone login, etc... Loads of great options available to the company looking to lead the way.


----------



## krkaufman

csell said:


> How would you specify who you are or what profile you want it recorded to? Obviously it would require extra steps during the recording process and more clicks... What if you want a show for both you and your wife. How do you specify that? If you specify its for both you and your wife, does it show up in both folders? If its in both folders and your wife deletes it, does it delete it from my folder as well? What if you setup to record a show for your profile and then later your wife finds the show and also wants to record it. How would that work?
> 
> Anyway, its not straight forward and would require a lot more to the UI and certainly making recording more complex (if you choose to to do it).


It really could be quite straightforward. Recording setup and conflict resolution could work exactly as they do now; no changes. And the system could be setup to auto-subscribe each user to every new show added to OnePass, with each user then choosing to unsubscribe from content (shows) in which they have no interest.

The only difficulty I can see would be preventing auto-subscribe for "Kids" profiles.

Alternatively, *initial* subscriptions for a new OnePass entry could be handled via a secondary dialog, while routine addition/removal of subscriptions could be handled by each user via the OnePass Manager -- with Thumbs Up indicating a subscription for the currently active profile, much like w/ Favorite channels.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> *And it's not just about filtering My Shows.* The same tags could be used to filter the To Do List so you could quickly look through it and ensure your shows are recordings. They could also apply parental controls so that kids couldn't even see Mom or Dad's list without a pin of some sort. (right now parental controls only prevent Jr. from playing a naughty movie, it doesn't prevent him from seeing it on the list or reading the description)


Yup. See also:

Personalized 'My Shows' listing (covered)
Personalized "watched progress"
Personalized 'Partially Watched' subgroup
Personalized streaming app authenication
Personalized social media integration
Personalized Suggestions filtering
Personalized Favorites channel list(s!)
Personalized 'Discovery Bar' (though generally blah on the feature)

edit: p.s. Oh, and it would make a whole lot of sense for these user profiles to be OPTIONALLY linked to individualized TiVo.com accounts, allowing for simpler setup across multiple devices -- as well as preferences portability when visiting others with compatible TiVo systems.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> What if switching profiles was as simple as pressing the D button on the remote to cycle through them? (currently not used) *And what if the default action for creating a 1P/WL/Recording was to set it to All with a secondary, optional, screen that allowed you to select users only if you wanted to? *(like setting options, you can accept the default or manage them individually if you want)
> 
> Plus how often do you really setup new 1Ps/WL/Recordings? It's not like it's something you'd have to manage constantly.


Yup. "Exactly" across the board.

With the end result being ZERO change for anyone not wanting multiple profiles (i.e. the added "Subscribe to OnePass" dialog wouldn't even be a visible option until "User Profiles" were enabled by an explicit toggle and/or adding one or more user profiles to the system).


----------



## krkaufman

aaronwt said:


> What if I don't remember the name? That already happens too often to me.


I'm assuming, though an interesting possibility, that that was simply an example of how complicated things could get if taken to an extreme.


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> I love the fingerprint on a button idea, like the home button on your iPhone! :up:


Me, too. Both because it would require a local presence and could easily be added via an optional USB-attached device. It would also allow for easy login/logout for multiple viewers as each person came/went during a viewing session, allowing for personalized watched history/progress even during multi-user viewing sessions.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> 3) When the list is filtered for a specific user deleting a show/recording from that list will simply untag it for that user. The show is only actually deleted when the last user is untagged.


I wouldn't say that a show a given user deletes should be "untagged" for that user, merely that it is "flagged for deletion" by that user, and so will appear in the 'Recently Deleted' folder for that particular user. If they opt to restore the episode, then it would pop right back into their My Shows listing.

If/when all subscribed users have flagged a given show for deletion, it would be near the top of the "to be permanently deleted" hit list -- ahead of shows which one or more users are yet to delete, and perhaps even ahead of Suggested recordings.


----------



## krkaufman

moyekj said:


> ReplayTVs used to have the ability to create your own custom folders named however you like, but that would be way un-TiVo like.


Also wasn't that useful, either, as any given program was limited to a single category, correct?


----------



## krkaufman

mrsean said:


> It there was a poll taken today on most wanted new features user profiles would most likely be in the top 5. They have been at least in the top 10 of requested features for the past 3 years. So I'd say I a significant number of folks do care and I'd bet it would be in the majority among the total userbase. Most people do not have the means or want to purchase 2 DVRs.


And I'm pretty sure it was at/near the top of TiVo's list when they switched from the "Now Playing List" to "My Shows" -- which coincided with the leaked user profiles screenshot. Sadly, they kept the taunting "My Shows" naming while pulling the profiles feature.


----------



## krkaufman

thefisch said:


> Complete profiles with separate to do lists, one pass manager, user permissions, etc. is too much to ask for in my opinion.


Concur. Which is why I'd be thrilled w/ a simple viewing-centric add/remove subscriptions capability for the OnePass Manager, much like exists for Favorites channel list -- though I'd also want the associated personalized user-centric data integration mentioned previously.


----------



## krkaufman

Kremlar said:


> Can you guys start a different thread? I subscribed to this one in hopes of hearing news about the new Bolt.


Ouch. I totally thought this was a "what feature do you want in the Bolt?" thread. Apparently not.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Looks like Dave found himself something.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/648566801132072960


----------



## Dan203

So it looks like it is going to be white.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks like Dave found himself something.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/648566801132072960





Dan203 said:


> So it looks like it is going to be white.


Boy, THAT won't get nasty after using it with your grubby hands over the years, will it?  :down:


----------



## Dan203

I hate white electronics. This will be reason enough for me to not upgrade to a Bolt. :down:


----------



## southerndoc

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks like Dave found himself something.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/648566801132072960


That thing looks hideous!


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I hate white electronics. This will be reason enough for me to not upgrade to a Bolt. :down:


I can't say for certain all Bolt models will be all white...


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> I hate white electronics. This will be reason enough for me to not upgrade to a Bolt. :down:


Well I'm sure you'll probably be able to use the standard Roamio remote or a Slide Pro remote with it.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well I'm sure you'll probably be able to use the standard Roamio remote or a Slide Pro remote with it.


What I meant was that since the remote is white the box is likely white as well. That's the part I don't like. I use a slide pro remote anyway, so the remote doesn't matter. But I hate that the box itself is going to be white.


----------



## JoeKustra

Dan203 said:


> What I meant was that since the remote is white the box is likely white as well. That's the part I don't like. I use a slide pro remote anyway, so the remote doesn't matter. But I hate that the box itself is going to be white.


Could be the trend. Arris/Motorola modems have turned white for retail and black for OEM. I put a piece of flat back cardboard in front of my modem (and Roamio). Remember when brushed aluminum was the standard?


----------



## NashGuy

Looks like the buttons for the new Bolt remote are exactly the same as the Roamio's, with only cosmetic differences to the TiVo button (looks like the Tivo guy will live on only in silhouette form) and the thumb up/down buttons, all matching the updated on-screen UI we'll all be getting soon, I imagine.

Seems like TiVo has favored Tuesdays for new hardware releases in the past. Wonder if they'll release the Bolt tomorrow given that Google has a big media event scheduled for new cell phones, Chromecast, etc?


----------



## aaronwt

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks like Dave found himself something.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/648566801132072960


if there was a vomit emoticon I would be using it. Blech!

"Two Thumbs Up"? More like a middle finger from TiVo. That thing makes me want to throw it on the ground and break it into a million pieces.


----------



## thefisch

Not down for the white look. Just bought a new router that's white and it stands out more in the room than the old dark blue/black. I guess they want to be noticed - "Hey you have a TiVo!"


----------



## HarperVision

thefisch said:


> Not down for the white look. Just bought a new router that's white and it stands out more in the room than the old dark blue/black. I guess they want to be noticed - "Hey you have a TiVo!"


More like: _"Hahahahaha.......you have a TiVo?!?!?!"_ (as they point and laugh uncontrollably!) 

 :down:


----------



## trip1eX

They are including 1 pair of Tivo-branded latex gloves for the new remote. Then you have to sign up for a lifetime supply for $100 or go with the nothing up front, $1.50/mo glove subscription.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm still betting on a "Pro" model that's larger and more normally shaped/colored. Tivo's branding whimsy might be acceptable at the retail level, but MSO's aren't going to jump on that.


----------



## keenanSR

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'm still betting on a "Pro" model that's larger and more normally shaped/colored. Tivo's branding whimsy might be acceptable at the retail level, but MSO's aren't going to jump on that.


Like the odd shaped Roamio Basic vs the Plus and the Pro.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

keenanSR said:


> Like the odd shaped Roamio Basic vs the Plus and the Pro.


'zactly.


----------



## Dan203

That might be OK then

Although someone mentioned above that there is a new trend of making retail devices white while OEM devices are black. So it's possible the Pro could still be white.


----------



## foghorn2

Dan203 said:


> So it looks like it is going to be white.


I hear Trump will be one of the first to get one


----------



## HarperVision

foghorn2 said:


> I hear Trump will be one of the first to get one


No, he's getting a Mega.....or 6!


----------



## JoeKustra

HarperVision said:


> No, he's getting a Mega.....or 6!


That's HUGE!


----------



## HarperVision

JoeKustra said:


> That's HUGE!


It's so it matches his ego!


----------



## Series3Sub

The white remote must be to match the white Bolt box. So, those pics of the supposed Bolt might be closer to real than we think. I am OK with the white. It seems like a bold statement that TiVo is going all in for the Bolt (not staying with the black or older gray), whatever that turns out to be.

I am much more upset that TiVo took away those video intros from boot-up with our tiny TiVo creature frolicking around and marching with signs and all. No, really. I am sad I can't play those from my box fore a quick chuckle now and then. I suppose TiVo "whacked" the TiVo creature in its sleep and gave him cement over-shoes and let him "swim" in the river. So, sad. But his voice really was wimpy and bad. Now all we have is the smile and the work TiVo.


----------



## HarperVision

I'm starting to really think today, Tuesday Sep 29 is the day of the bolt's release. With all the TiVo server issues earlier, reports of Plex, Netflix and Hulu going away for awhile and then I setup my new refurb base Roamio tonight and had tons of issues and failed connections as reported elsewhere, but then when I was finally able to complete guided setup and it scanned my channels there was DEFINITELY something different and it just screamed through the channel scan like nobody's business, way faster than it took just a day or so ago (before I got the cablecard and TA and limited basic cable hooked up again). Previously I would start the channel scan then switch over to something else to watch or do and come back to it, usually a minimum of like 5 mins. This time it just blew through it almost as fast as I could pickup the remote to switch inputs!


----------



## aaronwt

And today is my birthday. If the Bolt is released today that would be like getting a lump of coal with vomit on it for a present.


----------



## tatergator1

From our resident Tivo dealer. Tomorrow's the day. So much for a Tuesday.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532315


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Looks like Dave found himself something.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/648566801132072960


Makes me think of this...






http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600525


----------



## TazExprez

Wonderful news! Finally the Bolt series is coming out!


----------



## Chuck_IV

Ugh... why did they go with white??? Would stand out like a sore thumb with all the rest of my equipment being black(I use universal remotes in the main rooms, so it needs to be visible).


----------



## Jed1

Dan203 said:


> That might be OK then
> 
> Although someone mentioned above that there is a new trend of making retail devices white while OEM devices are black. So it's possible the Pro could still be white.


Arris started doing this with their retail equipment a year or two ago. This way the consumer owned cable modems are white and the MSO modems are black. This is done so the cable company employees can easily see what is owned by the consumer and what the MSO owns.

I figured that Pace made the TiVos, and now that Arris bought Pace, and now that TiVos MSO footprint is expanding, they are incorporating the same color scheme with the new TiVos. The MSO units will probably be black.


----------



## Kremlar

I'm seeing a 500GB model and 1000GB model but nothing higher-end yet. That's all I know.


----------



## bearcat2000

I guess this is it. Strange.


----------



## JoeKustra

bearcat2000 said:


> I guess this is it. Strange.


Strange is being nice. It looks like a mistake.


----------



## Dan203

Weird looking


----------



## Balzer

bearcat2000 said:


> I guess this is it. Strange.


I actually really like the shape. I have nothing stacked on or below my Roamio Plus now, so this would be fine with me.

But I want it black. White looks ridiculous.


----------



## Kremlar

I agree, the shape is interesting and I don't mind it. I would prefer black if given an option, but my biggest concern is that there won't be a Pro model released at the same time. Fingers crossed.


----------



## b_scott

bearcat2000 said:


> I guess this is it. Strange.


great dust trap underneath. Why would I want this near all my black electronics?


----------



## moyekj

Maybe the shape is supposed to resemble a lightning bolt?


----------



## jonw747

I don't see a fan grille on the back. Could they have gone to a fanless design and hence the bumps are functional in encouraging better airflow?

I don't care for the looks either, but I suppose it's possible they have a "pro" model with more of a "pro" appearance and build.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

I like the design but I don't need another TiVo and won't be buying it.


----------



## trip1eX

Weird design. I wonder if it has any function like better heat dissipation?

Most likely not getting one, but eager to learn what's new and better.


----------



## sjryan

The Bolt will be available for purchase starting tomorrow. Supposedly some special pricing as well.


----------



## lessd

The TiVo bolt is coming so this may your last chance to get this TiVo from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD540140-Series2-140-Hour-Recorder/dp/B0002A0206/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1443552104&sr=8-25&keywords=tivo

Can't match that deal


----------



## davezatz

b_scott said:


> great dust trap underneath. Why would I want this near all my black electronics?


Never fear, the fan underneath will blow the dust away...


----------



## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> Never fear, the fan underneath will blow the dust away...


I *was* wondering if there might be a fan on the underside of the hump, to help pull heat out of this thing.


----------



## Dan203

Based on a rough calculation comparing a photo of the Roamio Basic/OTA to the Bolt it's about 2.25" narrower. The perspective makes it hard to determine the depth but the height, excluding the hump, is roughly the same with the hump being about 1/4" higher at it's peak.


----------



## Dan203

I wonder why that end piece almost looks separate? Maybe that's an interchangeable tuner module? Or a user replaceable HDD module like the Xbox 360s use to have? (probably just a design aesthetic)


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Based on a rough calculation comparing a photo of the Roamio Basic/OTA to the Bolt it's about 2.25" narrower. The perspective makes it hard to determine the depth but the height, excluding the hump, is roughly the same with the hump being about 1/4" higher at it's peak.


From the FCC:

The EUT enclosure is primarily constructed of plastic. It measures approximately 28.7 cm wide by 17.5 cm deep by 4.5 cm high.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Based on a rough calculation comparing a photo of the Roamio Basic/OTA to the Bolt it's about 2.25" narrower. The perspective makes it hard to determine the depth but the height, excluding the *hump* is roughly the same with the *hump* being about 1/4" higher at it's peak.


They should've named it Quasimodo instead of Bolt!


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> I wonder why that end piece almost looks separate? Maybe that's an interchangeable tuner module? Or a user replaceable HDD module like the Xbox 360s use to have? (probably just a design aesthetic)


One theory is that a 2.5" hard drive is mounted in that section.


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> From the FCC:
> 
> The EUT enclosure is primarily constructed of plastic. It measures approximately 28.7 cm wide by 17.5 cm deep by 4.5 cm high.


Wow that's pretty small. Still wondering if maybe they've switched to using 2.5" HDDs now.


----------



## series5orpremier

thefisch said:


> Not down for the white look. Just bought a new router that's white and it stands out more in the room than the old dark blue/black. I guess they want to be noticed - "Hey you have a TiVo!"


At least it would be easy to pick out from the pile of Roamio and other remotes laying on the couch. No reflective stickers needed.


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> One theory is that a 2.5" hard drive is mounted in that section.


Has it been confirmed that it's a 2.5" HDD?


----------



## HarperVision

davezatz said:


> One theory is that a 2.5" hard drive is mounted in that section.


Would it be detachable for easy HDD upgrades?


----------



## b_scott

I don't see a cablecard slot.


----------



## Kremlar

> Wow that's pretty small. Still wondering if maybe they've switched to using 2.5" HDDs now.


I bet they did, considering the 2 models I see are 500GB and 1000GB. Perhaps the rumored larger, more typical looking Pro version would still use a 3.5" drive. But will that be announced tomorrow as well?


----------



## HarperVision

b_scott said:


> I don't see a cablecard slot.


It could be on the bottom just like the base Roamio.


----------



## b_scott

HarperVision said:


> It could be on the bottom just like the base Roamio.


how could it be on the bottom? this looks small. My cablecard is longer than it is tall, it seems.


----------



## Kremlar

It's under a trapdoor, on the bottom, on the base Roamio.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

b_scott said:


> how could it be on the bottom? this looks small. My cablecard is longer than it is tall, it seems.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9783055#post9783055


----------



## Dan203

b_scott said:


> how could it be on the bottom? this looks small. My cablecard is longer than it is tall, it seems.


The Roamio Basic had a little door on the bottom that you pop off. The CableCARD then inserts into a horizontal slot that's just a little shorter then the opening provided under the door.

Here's a photo...


----------



## davezatz

b_scott said:


> I don't see a cablecard slot.


It's on the bottom, opposite side from the arch.

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-09/tivo-bolt/#comment-57689


----------



## series5orpremier

Looks like the plastic has melted and warped from all the excess heat.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> The Roamio Basic had a little door on the bottom that you pop off. The CableCARD then inserts into a horizontal slot that's just a little shorter then the opening provided under the door.
> 
> Here's a photo...


ah thanks. So not a slot really. Was not picturing that.


----------



## Dan203

Basically you set the card in the left side of that cavity and then slide it onto those rails on the right until it reaches the end and makes contact with all the pins which are under that larger metal piece. It's essentially the same slot used in other TiVos it's just exposed in a different way.


----------



## shwru980r

I think Tivo appeals to many high end niche customers who wish to have there home theatre space as dark as possible. I guess the high end niche customer might have their DVR hidden in a closet anyway.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Basically you set the card in the left side of that cavity and then slide it onto those rails on the right until it reaches the end and makes contact with all the pins which are under that larger metal piece. *It's essentially the same slot used in other TiVos it's just exposed in a different way*.


So does that mean we can use _any_ cablecard slot from an older series TiVo to move over to our Roamio OTA to turn it into a basic?

(Sorry to be off topic, but the statement forced the question. A quick yes or no will suffice Dan)


----------



## JoeKustra

shwru980r said:


> I think Tivo appeals to many high end niche customers who wish to have there home theatre space as dark as possible. I guess the high end niche customer might have their DVR hidden in a closet anyway.


I have a piece of stiff cardboard painted flat black in front of my Roamio. And the LEDs are disabled. Same with my white Arris modem. Same with my Roku 3.


----------



## JoeKustra

HarperVision said:


> So does that mean we can use _any_ cablecard slot from an older series TiVo to move over to our Roamio OTA to turn it into a basic?
> 
> (Sorry to be off topic, but the statement forced the question. A quick yes or no will suffice Dan)


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=528452


----------



## HarperVision

JoeKustra said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=528452


I already know that thread, as I am a major contributor to it. What I am asking is if the actual hardware for the slot is the same piece of equipment that is used in ALL previous and newer TiVos? i.e. - are they interchangeable?


----------



## BobCamp1

HarperVision said:


> Would it be detachable for easy HDD upgrades?


Upgrade to what? The current maximum size for 2.5" drives is 2 TB. You can't buy a larger one. I think the A/V models top out at 1 TB.


----------



## filovirus

BobCamp1 said:


> Upgrade to what? The current maximum size for 2.5" drives is 2 TB. You can't buy a larger one.


If this is the case, I am hoping to see a "Plus/Pro" version of the Bolt in a more traditional form factor with a 3.5" 4 TB or even 6 TB drive.


----------



## meoge

I just called support to get a replacement remote and he confirmed they are releasing a new product tonight. He wouldn't confirm more, but If the support people are talking about it then I'm guessing it will be here by tomorrow.


----------



## BobCamp1

moyekj said:


> Maybe the shape is supposed to resemble a lightning bolt?


It looks like a sideways turd.

My Blu-ray player sits on top of my current DVR, so the Bolt's shape wouldn't work for me. I guess that's one way to keep people from putting other boxes on top of your product. I don't mean making it curved, I mean making it look ugly so nobody would buy it.


----------



## jcthorne

I don't think its ugly, don't think it looks great either. Just is. I am far more concerned with what it can DO and how much it will set me back to get one. Having been in the tivo fold for too many years, there is little doubt I will purchase one unless they leave out some necessary feature or its cost prohibitive.


----------



## andyf

jcthorne said:


> i don't think its ugly, don't think it looks great either. Just is. I am far more concerned with what it can do and how much it will set me back to get one. Having been in the tivo fold for too many years, there is little doubt i will purchase one unless they leave out some necessary feature or its cost prohibitive.


+1


----------



## aaronwt

So I guess some reviews will come out tonight or tomorrow then?


----------



## davezatz

TiVo pulled an Apple. The Store just went down.

https://www.tivo.com/shop/


----------



## HarperVision

Hey what happened to BigJimOutlaw's post???


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I deleted it, gave it to Dave.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I deleted it, gave it to Dave.


Boooooo, he gets enough recognition here!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

HarperVision said:


> Boooooo, he gets enough recognition here!


He found it first anyway, I posted it because I saw his twitter.


----------



## NashGuy

meoge said:


> I just called support to get a replacement remote and he confirmed they are releasing a new product tonight. He wouldn't confirm more, but If the support people are talking about it then I'm guessing it will be here by tomorrow.


Yep, looking like it's going to be tonight. Why introduce new products when so many journalists and bloggers are away from their desks for the day? Seems a bit odd. I suppose the official press release will go out in the morning.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Yep, looking like it's going to be tonight. Why introduce new products when so many journalists and bloggers are away from their desks for the day? Seems a bit odd. I suppose the official press release will go out in the morning.


They've done this before. Had gag orders on new products that expired at midnight the day of release. Looks like they're just getting ready so that people can look it up and buy as soon as those reviews hit.


----------



## NashGuy

davezatz said:


> TiVo pulled an Apple. The Store just went down.


Looks like it's not just the store but also some of their general info, support and personal account pages too. I guess they're gonna pretty much revamp the whole website for the rollout tonight.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Totally badass, eh?

I'm nostalgic now. Reminds me of the cards some of us got from employees with our launch Roamios.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=507881

"That's wicked to the power of sick."


----------



## HarperVision

I'm in Hawaii, hours behind the mainland, so I get to watch it all unfold live in person while y'all are snoring away!  :up:


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dave posted a bigger pic. I'm not in love with it but I don't mind it. Since the sides are flat, if the bend isn't too top-heavy it might be possible to set it vertically and hide it behind the TV. Then people will just think you sat on your Wii.

The back plate looks like it's hanging off, though? At least make the cheap plastic look good for the stock photos.


----------



## Jed1

I think a little "Anticipation is making me wait" is appropriate at this time.


----------



## wmcbrine

Midnight Eastern Time or Midnight Pacific?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

It was Eastern for the Roamio. Guess we gotta find out.


----------



## jonw747

davezatz said:


> TiVo pulled an Apple. The Store just went down.
> 
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/


They've tossed the little TiVo man in a padded room with a giant bar of soap!?!


----------



## CoxInPHX

davezatz said:


> TiVo pulled an Apple. The Store just went down.
> 
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/


Was it really necessary to also take down the User Account sections? 
http://www.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do

I would be a bit upset if I just got my new Roamio and could not activate it online.


----------



## Dan203

Maybe they're revamping their entire website as part of the launch


----------



## mrsean

CoxInPHX said:


> Was it really necessary to also take down the User Account sections?
> http://www.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do
> 
> I would be a bit upset if I just got my new Roamio and could not activate it online.


Yea. I cannot activate my new Mini right now. Sigh.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Maybe they're revamping their entire website as part of the launch


They better be. Otherwise there would be no reason to have no access to account info. But this is TiVo we are talking about so I guess anything is possible.


----------



## trip1eX

They probably couldn't take their site down any other way. All or nothing.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Here's a little more gas for the fire.

I've been wondering this since the video leak.

A 320 GB drive = 45 hours.
A 500 GB drive = 75 hours.

The drive is evidently 500GB, but the "58 hours" from the video implies exactly 400 GB. No such 2.5" drive exists.

What is the missing 100 GB for?


----------



## CoxInPHX

CoxInPHX said:


> Was it really necessary to also take down the User Account sections?
> http://www.tivo.com/tivo-mma/login/show.do
> 
> I would be a bit upset if I just got my new Roamio and could not activate it online.





mrsean said:


> Yea. I cannot activate my new Mini right now. Sigh.


Account Info is back up with a new site design.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Check it out it is up, now

https://www.tivo.com/

Damn, I should have grabbed a screen shot, it is down again.


----------



## mrizzo80

I'm still getting the maintenance pages.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Lol, somebody jumped the gun. Site is back to the old mode. It was up briefly.

*Commercial Skipping* on the top 20 channels and* Quick Mode* (watch TV 30% faster).


----------



## trip1eX

I get the old site.


----------



## innocentfreak

Not sure I saw enough to pull the trigger. Add to cart didn't work so couldn't check lifetime prices or if it was even an option.


----------



## Sixto

"Skip mode" to skip commercials.


----------



## Anotherpyr

While 4K is nice, why only 4 tuners?


----------



## CoxInPHX

Screen Grab:


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Commercial Skipping on the top 20 channels and Quick Mode (watch TV 30% faster).

500GB @ $300, 1TB @ $400. Both include one year of service.


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> 500GB is $300 with one year of service.


This concerns me with regards to lifetime.


----------



## trip1eX

Commercial skipping mean their own OTT service or cable-authenticated OTT service that lets you skip commercials like the X1 can do?


----------



## davezatz

Looks like Aereo OTA-only edition is delayed or cancelled.


----------



## trip1eX

Tivo going to package a cloud based cable-authenticated on-demand service with their dvrs? 

Is the fee going to change from just guide data to guide data plus this?


----------



## davezatz




----------



## davezatz




----------



## davezatz




----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The video makes it sound like time saving is the angle for the name.

Skip Mode + Quick Mode


----------



## trip1eX

They found a use for the green D button!!!!


----------



## caughey

series5orpremier said:


> Looks like the plastic has melted and warped from all the excess heat.


I was thinking maybe it was designed by Dali.


----------



## trip1eX

No 6 tuner models? I can hear the groans already if that's true.


----------



## trip1eX

Auto skip is nice, but kind of funny since their last big commercial skip feature that I remember was the Tivo's ability to skip commercials more slowly.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Hulu is missing from the promo videos.


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> Auto skip is nice, but kind of funny since their last big commercial skip feature that I remember was the Tivo's ability to skip commercials more slowly.


I considered it more as a way to see what you were skipping and less of doing it slower.


----------



## trip1eX

innocentfreak said:


> I considered it more as a way to see what you were skipping and less of doing it slower.


Same difference.


----------



## dswallow

Dan203 said:


> Maybe they're revamping their entire website as part of the launch


Considering the performance we usually see from their web site, I suspect that the 500MHz Pentium II system just can't handle two different hosted site designs at the same time so they have to shut all the non-static stuff down while getting it ready for the new rollout.


----------



## trip1eX

Why the 4 tuners though? 

It is more than just that these are 4k tuners and they can only be bought 4 on a chip? 

Second thought is maybe hard drives can't handle more than 4 4k tuners. Plus playback and Minis.


Last perhaps there is a cloud on-demand aspect to this top 20 channel auto skipping commercial feature which means you won't need as many tuners on average.

Also maybe to help out, the tuners are smarter and you don't need 2 now when recording shows back to back on the same channel with default padding?


Oh and I bet Tivo has data on how often all your tuners are all in use? Maybe that drove this seemingly only 4 tuner model?


----------



## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> ........ Last perhaps there is a cloud on-demand aspect to this top 20 channel auto skipping commercial feature which means you won't need as many tuners on average. .........


Doesn't 20 channels sound a lot like SlingTV? Maybe they're going to offer that?


----------



## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> Doesn't 20 channels sound a lot like SlingTV? Maybe they're going to offer that?


Maybe. I'm thinking, if there is a cloud aspect to this feature, it's more like a cable-authenticated on-demand service much like the X1 stores the top 100 shows in the cloud (afaik) for on-demand access.


----------



## HarperVision

trip1eX said:


> Maybe. I'm thinking more like a cable-authenticated on-demand service much like the X1 stores the top 100 shows in the cloud for on-demand access. Perhaps even just accesses your cable company's cloud service like Tivos can access the on-demand service from your cable co.


If so that would be cool because TWC has an awesome app, TWC-TV.


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> Why the 4 tuners though?
> 
> It is more than just that these are 4k tuners and they can only be bought 4 on a chip?
> 
> Second thought is maybe hard drives can't handle more than 4 4k tuners. Plus playback and Minis.
> 
> Last perhaps there is a cloud on-demand aspect to this top 20 channel auto skipping commercial feature which means you won't need as many tuners on average.
> 
> Also maybe to help out, the tuners are smarter and you don't need 2 now when recording shows back to back on the same channel with default padding?
> 
> Oh and I bet Tivo has data on how often all your tuners are all in use? Maybe that drove this seemingly only 4 tuner model?


BigJimOutlaw seems to know the most about the chips these days. Maybe it is broadcom limitation or cost of doing 6 tuners.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

trip1eX said:


> Why the 4 tuners though?
> 
> It is more than just that these are 4k tuners and they can only be bought 4 on a chip?
> 
> Second thought is maybe hard drives can't handle more than 4 4k tuners. Plus playback and Minis.
> 
> Last perhaps there is a cloud on-demand aspect to this top 20 channel auto skipping commercial feature which means you won't need as many tuners on average.
> 
> Also maybe to help out, the tuners are smarter and you don't need 2 now when recording shows back to back on the same channel with default padding?
> 
> Oh and I bet Tivo has data on how often all your tuners are all in use? Maybe that drove this seemingly only 4 tuner model?


I wouldn't read too much into it yet.

The commercial skipping wouldn't need any cloud stuff to work.

I still think there is a "Pro" model in the making. Their priority might be on the higher-selling box for the holiday, then maybe we'll see the Bolt Pro in the spring or something. I'd be kind of stunned if there wasn't a 6-tuner model. There's no OTA box being announced either but we know that's happening as well.

At this point 4K is limited to streaming, so no tuners are involved there. Whether these boxes will support 4K over QAM (actual TV for recording) is anybody's guess since it doesn't technically exist yet.


----------



## caughey

15+ years I had a VCR that would automagically skip commercials even without pushing a button. When it died and they weren't making them anymore, I had to buy a TiVo.

So less storage, fewer tuners, higher resolution, commercial skip, and 1.3X fast forward. Other than the 4K, what requires new hardware?


----------



## bearcat2000

Badass is a pretty strong word. 4 tuner isn't badass.


----------



## moyekj

So from the pictures the main differences from Roamio Plus/Pro line are:
* 4K
* Less tuners (4 instead of 6) - big mistake IMO
* Skipmode (skip commercials for some channels)
* Quickmode (watch 30% faster with audio)
* The white box design
* Smaller hard drives

It's a pass for me. I will not go back to something less than 6 tuners no matter what else it does. Skipmode + Quickmode could easily be supported on series 5 and series 4 machines via software update could it not? Perhaps those features will not be back-ported though since that pretty much kills any differences other than 4K which is not very important right now anyway.


----------



## scottfll954

If what is being posted is true..

its pass for me too...

I would think within a couple of months roamio`s will get the same features (except 4k)


----------



## Sixto

same here. i'd like 4k but not losing tuners.


----------



## trip1eX

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I wouldn't read too much into it yet.
> 
> The commercial skipping wouldn't need any cloud stuff to work.
> 
> I still believe there is a "Pro" model in the making. Their priority is probably on the cheaper, higher-selling box for the holiday, then maybe we'll see the Bolt Pro in the spring or something.


Yep but auto skip only being available on the top 20 channels has me wondering why that would be? WMC had autoskip via a plugin long ago across every thing.

Given that a Comcast stores their top 100 in the cloud for on-demand, (and I think DTV does something like that,) it has to make you wonder if there is something similar from Tivo.

OTherwise what's the answer? Quality control? Agreements in place with those channels?

And not having 6 tuners out of the gate is a surprise if not a shock to me. I didn't expect the tuner count to go down. I didn't expect any roadblocks to buying except the price you'd expect of a new Tivo.

The top 20 in the cloud would offset/explain the 4 tuners if it isn't a current tech limitation.

But yeah all 11th hour speculation.


----------



## NashGuy

No idea why they're only offering a Bolt with 4 tuners but I doubt it has anything to do with 4K/UHD. The tuners themselves won't be for watching cable or OTA UHD channels (which don't even exist yet). The only UHD the Bolt will access is via streaming.


----------



## NashGuy

From what little I can glean from those posted screenshots, I don't think the commercial auto-skip feature has anything to do with any kind of OTT or on-demand streaming. I think it's simply skipping to the end of commercial breaks for your regularly recorded shows. As to why it's limited to 20 channels, I imagine that's because TiVo has agreements in place with those channels only. Remember the legal issues that Dish got into with its Hopper DVR, the killer feature of which is to auto-hop over commercials in recordings. They ended up having to strike agreements with certain channels and, in some cases, the AutoHop feature will only work on recordings more than a certain number of days old.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

trip1eX said:


> Yep but auto skip only being available on the top 20 channels has me wondering why that would be? WMC had autoskip via a plugin long ago across every thing.
> 
> Given that a Comcast stores their top 100 in the cloud for on-demand, (and I think DTV does something like that,) it has to make you wonder if there is something similar from Tivo.
> 
> OTherwise what's the answer? Quality control? Agreements in place with those channels?


Don't know. All I know is cloud stuff isn't necessary for commercial skipping.

But for a 500GB drive, there is 100GB unaccounted for based on the "58 hours" limit shown in the leaked video. The missing 100GB must serve some purpose. No clue if it has anything to do with this.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> No idea why they're only offering a Bolt with 4 tuners but I doubt it has anything to do with 4K/UHD. The tuners themselves won't be for watching cable or OTA UHD channels (which don't even exist yet). The only UHD the Bolt will access is via streaming.


Well just because 4k isn't offered yet doesn't mean they aren't 4k tuners.


----------



## innocentfreak

So it seems TiVo might be following the Microsoft release pattern.

Premiere = Vista
Roamio = Win 7
Bolt = Win 8

I will say it was difficult to think of something TiVo could really offer to make me want to upgrade before we knew anything. I am not sure TiVo solved that either. 

I just can't see MSOs embracing the Bolt form factor either.


----------



## Sixto

I'd love a Pro (3TB) with 4K. Doesn't seem like that's coming tomorrow.


----------



## trip1eX

I kind of like the form factor. I don't have anything stacked in my home. I guess I have more shelves than equipment. The Tivo could always sit on top of everything else if you're stacking stuff.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Well just because 4k isn't offered yet doesn't mean they aren't 4k tuners.


Well, if in the future it turns out that the same QAM tuners we now use will also tune in 4k cable channels, then sure, we can say that the Bolt happens to have 4k tuners. But given that CableLabs hasn't yet certified any new cable tuners for use with 4k multicast channels, much less any cable provider announce plans to offer such channels, there's no reason to believe that TiVo has been able to peer into the future and know the necessary specs to incorporate 4k tuners in the Bolt.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Well, if in the future it turns out that the same QAM tuners we now use will also tune in 4k cable channels, then sure, we can say that the Bolt happens to have 4k tuners. But given that CableLabs hasn't yet certified any new cable tuners for use with 4k multicast channels, much less any cable provider announce plans to offer such channels, there's no reason to believe that TiVo has been able to peer into the future and know the necessary specs to incorporate 4k tuners in the Bolt.


IF that's the case then you should have said that the first time. 

I thought I read Broadcomm had some 4k tuners and Tivo made a deal with them, but maybe that was just a 4k video chip or something.


----------



## CoxInPHX

jonw747 said:


> They've tossed the little TiVo man in a padded room with a giant bar of soap!?!





dswallow said:


> Considering the performance we usually see from their web site, I suspect that the 500MHz Pentium II system just can't handle two different hosted site designs at the same time so they have to shut all the non-static stuff down while getting it ready for the new rollout.


Thanks for the laughs...:up:


----------



## series5orpremier

This Bolt looks lame on multiple levels. We don't know if the hard drive is easily upgrade-able but why invest in that anyway if there's no lifetime option? Even if 4K broadcasts were available from a cable company the 500GB hard drive would only provide about 15 hours of 4K storage. This is in the same pathetic ballpark as the 20 hours of HD storage that came with the TiVo HD.

The commercial skip and 1.3X FF sound like desirable features but where they're really needed is in a 3TB Roamio where there are 476 HD hours of storage to burn through, not in a machine that can only hold 15 4K or 60 HD hours.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> I kind of like the form factor. I don't have anything stacked in my home. I guess I have more shelves than equipment. The Tivo could always sit on top of everything else if you're stacking stuff.


Yeah, I kinda dig the shape too, although not so much the white.

And yes, it's Broadccom's 4K system on a chip (with HEVC decoding for streaming) that's powering the Bolt.

Too bad if it turns out we won't see the Aereo Edition (OTA) tonight. Wonder if it's axed and they'll just stick with the Roamio OTA? And no Bolt Pro either, just the Roamio Pro being held over. Have to say this is an odd product mix that's emerging...


----------



## aaronwt

series5orpremier said:


> This Bolt looks lame on multiple levels. We don't know if the hard drive is easily upgrade-able but why invest in that anyway if there's no lifetime option? Even if 4K broadcasts were available from a cable company the 500GB hard drive would only provide about 15 hours of 4K storage. This is in the same pathetic ballpark as the 20 hours of HD storage that came with the TiVo HD.
> 
> The commercial skip and 1.3X FF sound like desirable features but where they're really needed is in a 3TB Roamio where there are 476 HD hours of storage to burn through, not in a machine that can only hold 15 4K or 60 HD hours.


What 4K content would it be holding? It will be streaming 4K content, not storing it on the hard drive.


----------



## NashGuy

davezatz said:


>


So Skip Mode and Quick Mode, which would seem to be software/service-based features, will apparently be exclusive to Bolt and not rolled out to Roamio users. Not good.


----------



## series5orpremier

aaronwt said:


> What 4K content would it be holding? It will be streaming 4K content, not storing it on the hard drive.


Reading is fundamental.


----------



## trip1eX

innocentfreak said:


> I will say it was difficult to think of something TiVo could really offer to make me want to upgrade before we knew anything. I am not sure TiVo solved that either.


yeah so far they not only didn't solve it for me, but even took stuff away that I have now aka the 4 tuners.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I kinda dig the shape too, although not so much the white.
> 
> And yes, it's Broadccom's 4K system on a chip (with HEVC decoding for streaming) that's powering the Bolt.
> 
> Too bad if it turns out we won't see the Aereo Edition (OTA) tonight. Wonder if it's axed and they'll just stick with the Roamio OTA? And no Bolt Pro either, just the Roamio Pro being held over. Have to say this is an odd product mix that's emerging...


IF it just the same tuners we have now and no on-demand cloud aspect then why only 4 tuners? Makes it even more of a mystery to me.

Does the 4k system on a chip only support 4 tuners for some reason?

Or maybe their 6 tuner models just don't sell compared to the 4 tuner mode. Hardly a leap there given the pricepoints and when retailers like BB only stock the 4 tuner model.

Or again maybe their customers rarely need all 6 tuners according to their data.


----------



## atmuscarella

NashGuy said:


> So Skip Mode and Quick Mode, which would seem to be software/service-based features, will apparently be exclusive to Bolt and not rolled out to Roamio users. Not good.


I agree from what we know (which isn't much) those features sound like just a software addition with no reason not to include them in the next Premiere and Roamio software updates. Maybe there is some hardware limitation, guess we will just have to wait and see.


----------



## wmcbrine

trip1eX said:


> Yep but auto skip only being available on the top 20 channels has me wondering why that would be?


To me, it suggests that they have humans manually tagging the commercial start/stop times for the programs on those channels. This could provide a more accurate skip feature than if it was based on automatic ad detection.


----------



## HarperVision

BobCamp1 said:


> Upgrade to what? The current maximum size for 2.5" drives is 2 TB. You can't buy a larger one. I think the A/V models top out at 1 TB.


It was only speculation that it had a 2.5" HDD when I posted that and Dave Z. has since confirmed it, but someone else did say that Toshiba has a 3TB 2.5" HDD but it is 13mm high instead of the normal 9mm. If the enclosure supports it, you could possibly use that to upgrade to.


----------



## andyf

Something I haven't seen considered is whether it will up convert the signal from the cable to 4K. Right now, my cable signal, 1080i or 720p is up converted by the Roamio to 1080p, then my TV up converts the 1080p signal to 4K. Is the Bolt 4K only for streaming or will it up convert to 4K?


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> Does the 4k system on a chip only support 4 tuners for some reason?
> 
> Or maybe their 6 tuner models just don't sell compared to the 4 tuner mode. Hardly a leap there given the pricepoints and when retailers like BB only stock the 4 tuner model.
> 
> Or again maybe their customers rarely need all 6 tuners according to their data.


I don't think the processor/SoC determines how many tuners the device can support. So I'd guess the reason for only 4 tuners is one of the latter reasons you mentioned. Apparently it's just a business/marketing decision. But I gotta think (as Zatz suggested) that maybe we'll see a high-end 6-tuner 3TB Bolt roll out in a few months, replacing the Roamio Pro.

I know we don't know the whole story yet but I have to say, right now, I'm both puzzled and disappointed with how this is unfolding...


----------



## wmcbrine

aaronwt said:


> What 4K content would it be holding? It will be streaming 4K content, not storing it on the hard drive.


I'll bet you a large amount of money* that it will accept and play back 4K video via pyTivo...

...as soon as I patch pyTivo to do that.

* not really


----------



## series5orpremier

The only reason to withhold it from the Roamio is to extort Roamio owners into buying a Bolt, but those features aren't a compelling enough reason to take a step backwards on other features.


----------



## filovirus

Bolt is not compelling for me, but pricing may make a difference to some. Hopefully Tivo makes it compelling on price.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> I don't think the processor/SoC determines how many tuners the device can support. So I'd guess the reason for only 4 tuners is one of the latter reasons you mentioned. Apparently it's just a business/marketing decision. But I gotta think (as Zatz suggested) that maybe we'll see a high-end 6-tuner 3TB Bolt roll out in a few months, replacing the Roamio Pro.
> 
> I know we don't know the whole story yet but I have to say, right now, I'm both puzzled and disappointed with how this is unfolding...


HOld back your flagship device though? Especially given how similar the models would be then why such a hold up?

NOt that I can't see that happening. We want to get something out b4 xmas thing. But odd to me. Early adopters/fanatics want to see your best device. Not the one everyone else will buy.

And I didn't mean to say there is any hard limitation to how many tuners a SoC can support. But an SoC might be something new to Tivo and it might very well be a really low cost option that is designed for the mass market. Tivo might have chosen it to get 4k streaming but maybe it's not capable enough to also run their UI and 6 tuners in the background? I'm just saying that in theory. I have no clue as to where processing power stands now in the chips in tivo devices and what is needed to comfortably record cabletv on multiple channels at once.


----------



## bricketh

Dave's post earlier with the premature screenshot shows $299 for the 500 GB model, with a year of service bundled in. Not sure how or if multi-user discounts would apply, or if Lifetime would be an option still... I hate year over year pricing, but if they can find a pricepoint to sell these at that bundles service, they will move more product. Casual people don't like buying expensive products and then buying expensive service to go along with it... If they want to target more homes, they need something that will drive interest more by getting consumer costs down. I hate the look, and the minimalist feature-set, but think the pricing model may be good for them.

This is a shock product (no pun intended), but I expect, like Dave, that they will release a more normal-looking version of this in 2016. I also hope they extend all features, beyond 4K, to the Roamio!


----------



## filovirus

Article up at Engadget.com


----------



## merccat

filovirus said:


> Article up at Engadget.com


Just reading that, seems pretty official now, here's another site with a review already:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/29/9419725/tivo-bolt-review-walt-mossberg


----------



## wmcbrine

Not up on tivo.com yet. Guess I'll sleep on it.


----------



## jfalkingham

WSJ had a very similar write up:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/tivo-bo...-not-to-cut-cable-1443585301?mod=djemonwine_t


----------



## jfalkingham

merccat said:


> Just reading that, seems pretty official now, here's another site with a review already:
> http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/29/9419725/tivo-bolt-review-walt-mossberg


am I reading it right? only 4 tuners?


----------



## merccat

Yeah, 4 tuners.

It's up on Amazon now for pre-order, release date October 4th:
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-BOLT-Uni...UTF8&qid=1443586494&sr=8-2&keywords=tivo+bolt


----------



## NashGuy

$300 for the hardware with first year of service, then $149 per year for service thereafter, apparently with no lifetime option. I'm really glad I jumped on the $300 Roamio OTA with lifetime rather than waiting for the Bolt (assuming that pricing for the Aereo Edition if/when it comes out, will be about the same as the base cable Bolt).

Skip Mode sounds cool and it's a feature I wish I had but it's certainly not reason enough for me to buy a Bolt.

Mossberg's review states that the Bolt won't ship with a Hulu app at all, as it will not run Flash apps, although TiVo expects an updated HTML5 Hulu app in the future. I wonder if the Bolt Aereo Edition is being held back until Hulu and perhaps other new OTT apps come to the platform, given the importance of streaming services for cord cutters. More than anything, I was really hoping we'd see some major new apps announced for TiVo alongside the Bolt introduction. I guess that's not happening...

To quote from the ending of the WSJ article on the Bolt:
_Without the heft of an Apple, Amazon, or even Roku, can TiVo continue to lure developers to bring it the streaming video apps I want? There's no HBO Now or Sling TV for getting cable TV over the Internet, just to name two. TiVo's whole selling point is that it's for the no-compromises TV lover. To make that claim for the future of TV, it's going to have to get just as clever at Internet video as it was at cable._
He hit the nail on the head.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tivo-bo...-not-to-cut-cable-1443585301?mod=djemonwine_t


----------



## wmcbrine

Hmm, it is on Amazon, though:

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-500GB-Unified-Entertainment-System/dp/B013X8YI5I/
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-BOLT-Unified-Entertainment-System/dp/B013X8YJ3Y/


----------



## dswallow

Nice that the QuickMode is coming to the Roamio. But kinda funny that the human-created info for SkipMode could easily allow the feature to be ported to the Roamio but they're apparently not doing it.

Though it will be available on Mini's connected to the Bolt.


----------



## mjcxp

NashGuy said:


> $300 for the hardware with first year of service, then $149 per year for service thereafter, apparently with no lifetime option. I'm really glad I jumped on the $300 Roamio OTA with lifetime rather than waiting for the Bolt (assuming that pricing for the Aereo Edition if/when it comes out, will be about the same as the base cable Bolt).
> 
> Skip Mode sounds cool and it's a feature I wish I had but it's certainly not reason enough for me to buy a Bolt.
> 
> Mossberg's review states that the Bolt won't ship with a Hulu app at all, as it will not run Flash apps, although TiVo expects an updated HTML5 Hulu app in the future. I wonder if the Bolt Aereo Edition is being held back until Hulu and perhaps other new OTT apps come to the platform, given the importance of streaming services for cord cutters. More than anything, I was really hoping we'd see some major new apps announced for TiVo alongside the Bolt introduction. I guess that's not happening...


Amazon is showing that there is a one time service option available after the first year.


----------



## wmcbrine

jfalkingham said:


> am I reading it right? only 4 tuners?


According to the Mossberg review, these two models (really, one model with two different drive sizes) are only intended to replace the base Roamio (which he refers to as the "Roamio-S", a designation I never saw before), and the Roamio Plus/Pro will continue to be sold (for now). So, if you want 4K, get a Bolt... but if you want 6 tuners, 3TB storage, and stackability, get a Roamio Pro.

I'm assuming that a 6-tuner Bolt Pro (or whatever), with a more normal-shaped case, will follow at some point. (?)


----------



## dswallow

"Your initial service subscription will be a Year-Included Plan. Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is $599.99, plus any applicable taxes)."

Looks like you don't even get a chance to apply the included first year annual service cost to buying the lifetime subscription. But jeez, $600?


----------



## dswallow

The web site has moved from "Hey, no peeking" to "We're busy updating our site and will be back soon."

ETA, and now it seems to be live.


----------



## Jed1

The TiVo site is back up.
https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt#/bolt


----------



## wazzupg

dswallow said:


> Nice that the QuickMode is coming to the Roamio. But kinda funny that the human-created info for SkipMode could easily allow the feature to be ported to the Roamio but they're apparently not doing it.
> 
> Though it will be available on Mini's connected to the Bolt.


Where are you getting this info from? On Tivos compare website, there is an X for this feature on the roamio.


----------



## djjuice

I wonder if the HD is easily replaceable like the Roamio (drop-in).


----------



## innocentfreak

Umm am I reading this right...this is from the fine print. 

Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is $599.99, plus any applicable taxes.

I can't select lifetime when adding a Roamio to the cart.


----------



## NashGuy

Looks like Lifetime Service, which is now called the "All-in Plan," will cost $600 and will not be available for Bolts bought directly from TiVo, only those sold through other retailers. Weird. If I read correctly, the All-in Plan will also be available for all new and previously activated Roamios but NOT for any Roamio Pros!


----------



## TazExprez

innocentfreak said:


> Umm am I reading this right...this is from the fine print.
> 
> Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is $599.99, plus any applicable taxes


I noticed this.


----------



## Jed1

Am I reading this right as TiVo is now charging $599.99 plus tax for the All in plan.
Regarding all new models of the TiVo BOLT or the TiVo Roamio Pro:
For purchases on tivo.com, and unless you specify otherwise (pursuant to the next sentence), your initial service subscription will be a Year-Included Plan, which subsequently will roll over automatically into successive annual service plans at the then-published rate (currently $149.99/year, plus any applicable taxes).1 Via tivo.com or TiVo Customer Service (877-367-8486), you instead may select a monthly service plan, at the current rate of $14.99/month (plus any applicable taxes) with a one (1)-year commitment and a $75 early termination fee2.
For purchases through any other retail sales channel, your initial service subscription will be a Year-Included Plan, which subsequently will roll over automatically into successive annual service plans at the then-published rate (currently $149.99/year, plus any applicable taxes).1 Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is *$599.99*, plus any applicable taxes).4


----------



## NashGuy

I also noticed that all four Roamio models are still available for purchase new from TiVo.com but they are all listed in the Outlet section of the site. Clearly, TiVo is signaling that the Roamio is not current-gen hardware. Which only makes me think all the more that we'll see additional Bolt models (a more expensive 6-tuner model and an OTA-only model) in the next few months. I just can't see TiVo limiting their Series 6 line-up to these two initial Bolt models.


----------



## dswallow

wazzupg said:


> Where are you getting this info from? On Tivos compare website, there is an X for this feature on the roamio.


http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/30/tivo-bolt-4k-commercial-skipmode/


----------



## wmcbrine

wazzupg said:


> Where are you getting this info from? On Tivos compare website, there is an X for this feature on the roamio.


It's in the Engadget review. But I suspect that they got it backwards, and SkipMode will make it to the Roamio, while QuickMode probably requires the new hardware, and can't be ported.


----------



## innocentfreak

The only thing I can think TiVo is doing is what they did in the middle of the Premiere line-up. Maybe they are upping lifetime while dropping the price of the hardware. I can tell you any interest in the new TiVos right now is gone for me until we get more details on this new pricing.


----------



## NashGuy

NashGuy said:


> If I read correctly, the All-in Plan will also be available for all new and previously activated Roamios but NOT for any Roamio Pros!


Sorry, as with the new Bolt, you CAN buy the All-In Plan for new Roamio Pros for $599.99 upon activation IF you buy it from a retailer other than TiVo.com.


----------



## smark

Not interested at $600 for lifetime unless it included the bolt. I'll stick with my Premiere.


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## dswallow

Well, all the good that comes of this is turned into complete and utter disgust by a $600 pricing on lifetime service, in addition to the "cost" built into the price for the "included 1-year of service."

Stupid people run that company.


----------



## aaronwt

Jed1 said:


> Am I reading this right as TiVo is now charging $599.99 plus tax for the All in plan.
> Regarding all new models of the TiVo BOLT or the TiVo Roamio Pro:
> For purchases on tivo.com, and unless you specify otherwise (pursuant to the next sentence), your initial service subscription will be a Year-Included Plan, which subsequently will roll over automatically into successive annual service plans at the then-published rate (currently $149.99/year, plus any applicable taxes).1 Via tivo.com or TiVo Customer Service (877-367-8486), you instead may select a monthly service plan, at the current rate of $14.99/month (plus any applicable taxes) with a one (1)-year commitment and a $75 early termination fee2.
> For purchases through any other retail sales channel, your initial service subscription will be a Year-Included Plan, which subsequently will roll over automatically into successive annual service plans at the then-published rate (currently $149.99/year, plus any applicable taxes).1 Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is *$599.99*, plus any applicable taxes).4


I was just reading that on the TiVo site. For the Bolt and Roamio Pro they want $600 for the "All In" plan. Which I guess used to be called lifetime. Or the yearly plan at $150 a year. I have to wonder if they have lost their minds. Between the new design, new color and new "Lifetime" cost of $600, I think they are crazy.

I guess I will be holding on to my Roamio Basic with a $$6.99 a month subscription. I had considered cancelling it. And the new prices might also make my $300 Lifetime Refurb Basic more valuable too.

Yes this was a crappy birthday present. A lump of coal, with Vomit and urine on it. I thought the vomit was bad enough but then they pissed on it by having Lifetime errr All In pricing increase to $599.99.


----------



## mjcxp

dswallow said:


> Well, all the good that comes of this is turned into complete and utter disgust by a $600 pricing on lifetime service, in addition to the "cost" built into the price for the "included 1-year of service."
> 
> Stupid people run that company.


I wonder why they do not offer a $150 discount if you upgrade before initial activation. TiVo is crazy to think people will pay $1,000 for a 1TB DVR in 2015.


----------



## moyekj

$600 All-In price I would only pay if it was transferable to new units, otherwise it's just nuts.
With only choices of $150/year or $600 lifetime it wouldn't be compelling even if Bolt did have revolutionary features.


----------



## dswallow

The year-included price is actually a good idea because it works much better as a gift when it doesn't immediately require the recipient to put out money. But the idiocy of lifetime pricing that high tied to units with ridiculously tiny capacities... and not even accounting for what they claim is 1 year of "included" service (which I suppose means they really think lifetime plans should be $749. Maybe if they gave the hardware for free, that'd be "reasonable.")


----------



## Alan Gordon

I think somebody made a goof in this statement:



> The TiVo BOLT and TiVo DVRs do not work with satellite. The TiVo Premiere 4/XL4/Elite DVRs, TiVo Roamio Pro/Plus DVRs, and TiVo BOLT are intended for use with digital cable systems only and do not work with external cable boxes, analog cable, or over-the-air antennas.


----------



## NashGuy

So let's see, if someone buys a Roamio Pro for $450 on Amazon (about the lowest price, I think) then adds the All-In Plan, they're looking at $1050. For a DVR. Honestly?! Who the hell is the target market for such a product? Rich older men who REALLY love TV? Clearly, TiVo doesn't much want to sell anyone lifetime service any more, and at that price, they're not going to. They want you to pay $149 a year, which is still a little less than what you'd probably pay for a cable-company DVR.

I can't say that there's a single bit of good news that's come out of this Bolt release tonight. What a letdown.


----------



## Jed1

aaronwt said:


> I was just reading that on the TiVo site. For the Bolt and Roamio Pro they want $600 for the "All In" plan. Which I guess used to be called lifetime. Or the yearly plan at $150 a year. I have to wonder if they have lost their minds. Between the new design, new color and new "Lifetime" cost of $600, I think they are crazy.
> 
> I guess I will be holding on to my Roamio Basic with a $$6.99 a month subscription. I had considered cancelling it. And the new prices might also make my $300 Lifetime Refurb Basic more valuable too.
> 
> Yes this was a crappy birthday present. A lump of coal, with Vomit and urine on it. I thought the vomit was bad enough but then they pissed on it by having Lifetime errr All In pricing increase to $599.99.


In order to get the All in plan you have to get it from a place like Amazon which is listing the 500GB Bolt for $299 which will be $900 for All In and 1TB Bolt for $399 which will be $1000 for All In.
This is way above my pay grade so no lifetime for me. If the Roamio deal is still on I may buy two base units and forget about the Bolt.
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-500GB-Un...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-1&keywords=tivo+bolt
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-BOLT-Uni...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-2&keywords=tivo+bolt


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jed1 said:


> If the Roamio deal is still on I may buy two base units and forget about the Bolt.
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-500GB-Un...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-1&keywords=tivo+bolt
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-BOLT-Uni...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-2&keywords=tivo+bolt


Lifetime for Roamio models are now $599 as well. :down:


----------



## aaronwt

Jed1 said:


> In order to get the All in plan you have to get it from a place like Amazon which is listing the 500GB Bolt for $299 which will be $900 for All In and 1TB Bolt for $399 which will be $1000 for All In.
> This is way above my pay grade so no lifetime for me. If the Roamio deal is still on I may buy two base units and forget about the Bolt.
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-500GB-Un...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-1&keywords=tivo+bolt
> http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-BOLT-Uni...UTF8&qid=1443589208&sr=8-2&keywords=tivo+bolt


Those are the same prices as on the TiVo site. After the year of included service you still need to decide to pay yearly at $149.99 or go "All In" and pay $599.99.

EDIT: Although looking more closely at the Terms of Service, whether you buy it at retail or from TiVo for those prices still get you the first year of service. Although it makes it sounds like you can get it from the TiVo website with the All In plan initially if you tell them. But I don't notice anything showing that the costs would be less than the $599.99. Otherwise it would make no sense to get the All In plan until the first year is up if the costs are going to be the same.


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## Dan203

Hmmm.... So no 6 tuner unit? So to get 4k you have to sacrafice 2 tuners, not sure that's worth it. 

Everything else is software and will probably eventually makeit down to the Roamio. They'll make it exclusive for a while to try and drive sales, but they'll like move them down to at least the Roamio line. Especially since they are still selling the Pro


----------



## innocentfreak

Even better that $1000 is now more than it cost eariler today for nothing extra. No thanks TiVo. 

I just can't figure out the pricing model. 

To opt for lifetime now means you have to wait 5 years before you break even since it comes with a year of service. 

I am also not going to pay $150 a year either and definitely not monthly. This leaves me with old TiVos and no incentive to buy a new one.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

$900 with Lifetime? LOL! No. Chance. In. Hell.

Roamio Plus with 6 tuners, twice the storage, and Lifetime was $800 initially.

Get right out of here.


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## Jed1

Alan Gordon said:


> Lifetime for Roamio models are now $599 as well. :down:





aaronwt said:


> Those are the same prices as on the TiVo site. After the year of included service you still need to decide to pay yearly at $149.99 or go "All In" and pay $599.99.
> 
> EDIT: Although looking more closely at the Terms of Service, whether you buy it at retail or from TiVo for those prices still get you the first year of service. Although it makes it sounds like you can get it from the TiVo website with the All In plan initially if you tell them. But I don't notice anything showing that the costs would be less than the $599.99. Otherwise it would make no sense to get the All In plan until the first year is up if the costs are going to be the same.


I was *****ing that I paid $1300 for two Premiere 4s with lifetime about two months before the Roamios came out, now two bolts will cost almost 2 grand.
This is insane. I am wondering if the Bolt has the stream built in or do you still have to buy it separately. One of the articles say they will include the stream next year so if this is true then TiVo is already upgrading the models.
http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/29/9...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter



> But it improves on the older model by supporting 4K video, gigabit Ethernet, the faster AC version of Wi-Fi, and streaming of shows to mobile devices and computers on the same network. *(It lacks the costlier Roamios out-of-home streaming feature, but the company says it plans to add that next year.)*


----------



## aaronwt

Jed1 said:


> I was *****ing that I paid $1300 for two Premiere 4s with lifetime about two months before the Roamios came out, now two bolts will cost almost 2 grand.
> This is insane. I am wondering if the Bolt has the stream built in or do you still have to buy it separately. One of the articles say they will include the stream next year so if this is true then TiVo is already upgrading the models.
> http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/29/9...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter


The stream is supposed to be built in to the Bolt like the Roamio Pro/Plus is.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

That sounds like the Stream is built-in but OOH is not working. Maybe that explains why there's no Aereo box?


----------



## NashGuy

aaronwt said:


> Otherwise it would make no sense to get the All In plan until the first year is up if the costs are going to be the same.


Based on the wording on TiVo.com, I don't think you have the option to wait until the first year is up to opt for the All-In Plan. You must opt for it "upon activation".


----------



## mjcxp

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That sounds like the Stream is built-in but OOH is not working. Maybe that explains why there's no Aereo box?


Yep. The Amazon description states that it "Streams and downloads to mobile devices in the home." Sounds like the Bolt was rushed to market to meet the September deadline.


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> Based on the wording on TiVo.com, I don't think you have the option to wait until the first year is up to opt for the All-In Plan. You must opt for it "upon activation".


I think I see what you are talking about. That is even worse because then you never really have a year of service included. They force you to pay for the Lifetime/All In service from the beginning.


----------



## Jed1

aaronwt said:


> The stream is supposed to be built in to the Bolt like the Roamio Pro/Plus is.


I hope so because that would be insane if they will add it to boxes later on. It does list it in the features section but it does not mention it in the specifications section.


----------



## NashGuy

So Microsoft will be offering subscription-free OTA DVR service for the Xbox One starting next year. If by that time my Roamio OTA still doesn't have the Showtime and HBO Now OTT apps and Xbox One has them, I may well decide to sell my Roamio OTA and my Panasonic Blu-ray player and buy a UHD-streaming Xbox One. I'm sure it wouldn't be as good a DVR as TiVo but if it could truly unify all my video watching in one unit (with the added ability to play games), that could well make up for a less polished OTA DVR experience.


----------



## toughcrowd

TiVo is toast. Sadly.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> I think I see what you are talking about. That is even worse because then you never really have a year of service included. They force you to pay for the Lifetime/All In service from the beginning.


So that means it's essentially $750 for lifetime now. Ouch!

I was hoping that the discounted lifetime on the Roamio basic was a sign they were going to lower the cost of lifetime, not increase it.

That basically puts break even at 5 years. With this upgrade cycle only being 2 years long, it might be better to just pay the yearly fee now. Even if you were to just junk the whole box when you're done it might still end up being cheaper.


----------



## DerKindestod

Alan Gordon said:


> Lifetime for Roamio models are now $599 as well. :down:


A while back I had bought a plus that I was going to put lifetime on but hadn't yet for various reasons. This is the reason that box is going to end up on ebay. I still have a tab open on checkout with the price at 399, in fact.

I don't actually have a problem with them jumping the price to 599. That's really their call just like it's our call to say it costs too much, but my issue is really with jacking the price up on already purchased units. It feels like a bait and switch, even if technically it's not.

I hate to be "that guy," but I'm tempted to cancel my two boxes that are still on monthly subs (1x lifetime hd, 2x monthly hd's, 1x lifetime roamio, 1x lifetime roamio plus, a mini and a stream). I just can't justify giving money to a company that would pull that kind of tactic.

On the bolt, subscription costs aside, there's just no compelling reason to upgrade to it. It's 4 tuners instead of 6, more costly, not stackable with other components, and is at a base insanely priced for a 500G model.

P.S. This is basically a throwaway account. It really is just a rant that probably doesn't add much to the conversation, but I've followed the board for years even if I've never posted/joined.


----------



## mjcxp

According to cnet (http://www.cnet.com/products/tivo-bolt/) it has 3 GB of RAM up from 1 GB, MoCA 2.0, a new dual core CPU that has 11,000 DMIPS up from 3,000, the SoC supports up to 2 streams, 4K video, wireless AC and built in Bluetooth. The Bolt seems like a bigger upgrade than I originally thought.


----------



## bearcat2000

dswallow said:


> Well, all the good that comes of this is turned into complete and utter disgust by a $600 pricing on lifetime service, in addition to the "cost" built into the price for the "included 1-year of service." Stupid people run that company.


They have great ideas on products, they just don't have a clue how to run a company is right. An eighth grader could determine a better pricing structure.


----------



## trip1eX

wmcbrine said:


> To me, it suggests that they have humans manually tagging the commercial start/stop times for the programs on those channels. This could provide a more accurate skip feature than if it was based on automatic ad detection.


Yep the review on Verge confirms this. Tivo has humans tagging shows.

Certain channels only. No sports or local programming. Only shows between 4pm and midnight. ...


----------



## trip1eX

Warranty sounds new. They will replace the box for $50 plus shipping at any time as long you maintain a monthly or yearly subscription.


----------



## bearcat2000

This product release and pricing structure is exactly what could do the company in. Sad. I think they had an opportunity to bring a ton of new customers in, many on tivocommunity, but that's not gonna happen. I haven't read a single post from anyone on here that's going to order. Everyone is keeping their Roamios.


----------



## trip1eX

I guess we know why there isn't a 6 tuner Bolt. The price would be $1500 with lifetime. 

Tivo has to draw the line somewhere.


----------



## Jrr6415sun

innocentfreak said:


> Umm am I reading this right...this is from the fine print.
> 
> Upon activation, you will have the option of upgrading your service subscription to an All-In Plan, for a one (1)-time payment at the then-published All-In Plan upgrade rate (which currently is $599.99, plus any applicable taxes.
> 
> I can't select lifetime when adding a Roamio to the cart.


so you won't see any value out of the lifetime service at $600 until after 5 years (initial 1 year + 4 years), that's crazy.


----------



## trip1eX

ON the bright side maybe all the extra ram and processing power mean the Mini experience will be identical to the Bolt's instead of the reduced experience you get now. And maybe the Bolt won't drop audio/video when going back to the menus.


----------



## HarperVision

Now says it will ship Oct 5:


----------



## Jrr6415sun

bearcat2000 said:


> This product release and pricing structure is exactly what could do the company in. Sad. I think they had an opportunity to bring a ton of new customers in, many on tivocommunity, but that's not gonna happen. I haven't read a single post from anyone on here that's going to order. Everyone is keeping their Roamios.


I think the pricing is great for new customers. I think the average person does not care about lifetime or are even thinking of it like us loyal 10+ year customers. They are obviously targeting new customers with their price structure and features. Buying a box with no monthly fee for a year is a great way to get new customers.

The $600 lifetime will go down i'm sure, but not for a year or more.

Yes everyone is keeping their roamios, but new customers will buy the bolt.


----------



## trip1eX

True. $300 for the dvr and a year of service is pretty good compared to renting a cable dvr which might be $20/mo. And most people are renting cable Dvrs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BigJimOutlaw

The reaction here is only slightly better than the Premiere. The reviews are pragmatic and not particularly excited. It is predictably the box nobody asked for.

Including a year of service is a good hook for newbies and the thrifty. But if service is baked into the cost, that should reduce the cost of Lifetime, not raise it. Nice middle finger.

It doesn't even account for MSD. So we get a double middle finger for keeping the doors open while their retail business runs out the hourglass, slowed only by double, triple, and quadruple counting Mini owners.

Not that I was really a customer anyway. I'm not downgrading to 4 tuners and half the storage. But it doesn't bode well for the eventual Pro pricing.


----------



## HarperVision

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The reaction here is only slightly better than the Premiere. The reviews are pragmatic and not particularly excited. It is predictably the box nobody asked for.
> 
> Including a year of service is a good hook for newbies and the thrifty. But if service is baked into the cost, that should reduce the cost of Lifetime, not raise it. Nice middle finger.
> 
> It doesn't even account for MSD. So we get a double middle finger for keeping the doors open while their retail business runs out the hourglass, slowed only by double, triple, and quadruple counting Mini owners.


Yeah, I went psuedo "cut the cord" with a refurb TiVo Roamio on an antenna a few weeks ago. I sold my Plus and grabbed a DirecTV Genie Lite DVR and THR-22 DirecTiVo (don't ask!) from a win back special by them, just basically for football season and the few cable type shows we watch. I integrated it all with an ATSC Modulator to watch DirecTV as a "channel" on my TiVo.

I am SERIOUSLY now considering just going all DirecTV and dumping TiVo altogether for the first time since Jan 2000! 

There was always this "what the heck" thought in the back of my mind with them with some dealings and the way they would do things and now it just seems like they just throw darts at a target with various idiotic options with no thought involved and then come up with a fancy marketing campaign to polish the turd they landed on. 

Or I may just return this refurb Roamio Base model I just setup and get a new Bolt! This feels like a bad codependent marriage that I'm afraid to walk out on, for some ungodly reason! 

EDIT: Oh, and the picture quality absolutely SUCKS with Oceanic TWC here through my Roamio! It used to be really good with TWC here, but something happened. They just started offering 300Mbps MAXX internet, so I'm sure that ate up the bandwidth for TV, especially since they still have analog TV signals for the old locals in the grass shacks.  I can't even begin to tell you how much better the DirecTV PQ looks at this point! I can actually watch NFL Network now without the image breaking up into a million mpeg blocks at the slightest bit of motion in the image!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bearcat2000 said:


> This product release and pricing structure is exactly what could do the company in. Sad. I think they had an opportunity to bring a ton of new customers in, many on tivocommunity, but that's not gonna happen. I haven't read a single post from anyone on here that's going to order. Everyone is keeping their Roamios.


Or in my case: Premiere boxes...

The Bolt _could_ have been the box I upgraded to.


----------



## HarperVision

Maybe they should've named it the *"TiVo Dolt"*?


----------



## Joe01880

Is it Series 5 or a new series 6 platform? Can the HDD be swapped out for a 3 - 6tb HDD? If yes the 500g model @ $299 with a year service is a pretty darn good deal and worth a thought with Christmas rapidly approaching. Best Buy with a 10% off coupon would be sweet.


----------



## wmcbrine

NashGuy said:


> Based on the wording on TiVo.com, I don't think you have the option to wait until the first year is up to opt for the All-In Plan. You must opt for it "upon activation".


I don't see where you're getting that.


----------



## Series3Sub

I feel so much better at having taken the Refurb Roamio and $250 Lifetime. I just had a hunch the Bolt was not going to be compelling to me, and I can take or leave the Commercial Skip and all those apps that Roku does better and far more apps. The pricing structure is great for TiVO and not so good for the consumer. The Bolt is not so compelling with the Roamios having been priced better--and $600 All-in with no MSD is just crazy.


----------



## Series3Sub

trip1eX said:


> Yep the review on Verge confirms this. Tivo has humans tagging shows.
> 
> Certain channels only. No sports or local programming. Only shows between 4pm and midnight. ...


And if that is the case, then it is EXACTLY how Dish achieves it's Auto Hop feature. It was rumored DirecTV had its own commercial skipping feature, but was waiting for the whole Dish vs. Big Nets case to be resolved. I was really surprised that TiVo includes such a Commercial Skip feature on the Bolt.

BTW, the 9th Circuit's ruling a few years ago of upholding the trial judge's refusal to grant a _*preliminary injunction*_ requiring Dish to disable AutoHop while the trail proceeds, explains, in detail, the whole process Dish uses to achieve the AutoHop and makes crystal clear that the plaintiff's (the big broadcast networks) had virtually no chance of prevailing, and it was soon after that Disney and CBS came to an agreement for reauthorizing re-transmission rights with both companies dropping their suits and accepting AutoHop, but did get Dish to agree to abide by the C3 and C7 (number of days from broadcast a commercial counts as being counted as viewed when playing back the recording before activating the AutoHop for that show recording.

FWIW, the reason humans are used for Commercial Skip and AutoHop is that if ANY portion of the program/show is skipped, it would be a violation of copyright. So, those markers at the start and end of a commercial break MUST BE accurate. There is NO ROOM FOR ERROR. The 9th Curcuit made clear that Dish could have AutoHop skip the commercials because the broadcast nets do NOT hold copyrights to the ads/commercials. So the game is to leave the programming untouched, but place markers at the start and end of the break. The experience with Dish's Autohop is that we do see the first 2 seconds of the first commercial, and then it AutoHops to just the last few seconds of the final commercial. IMHO, this is done to be certain the markers are as far from the programmings as reasonable and has no chance of cutting out any of the programming. Dish isn't (and possible TiVo) taking a chance. Better to have a few seconds of commercial at start and end rather than cut even a few seconds of programming.

Further, the 9th did state in its ruling that the ONLY point upon which the broadcast nets _could_ prevail is the broadcast nets contention that the copy of the programming that Dish uses for evaluation purposes in the AutoHop marking process does, indeed, appear to violate the broadcast nets contractual prohibition of *any unauthorized* coping of its programming. However, the 9th pointed out that the broadcast nets would have to demonstrate loss or damages from the copy of its programming by Dish, and the 9th ruling stated that considering that the copy Dish made for the purpose of internal quality control and that it is only seen by a very small number of people (less than 10, I think), it would be next to impossible for the broadcast nets to prove loss or damages due to the evaluation copy Dish makes. All hope the broadcast nets had was devastated by this ruling. Even though the nets still pursued their law suits against Dish, they must have known they "lost" or had no case after the 9th's ruling, and both Les Moonves and Bob Iger negotiated re-transmission agreements that allowed AutoHop to stay, and after Les Moonves earlier vowed to kill it, and saying, "no way," to AutoHop.

The point of the above is just that what TiVo is doing with its commercial skip is LEGAL and has already been indirectly affirmed by the courts and shouldn't face any legal challenges if TiVo does it properly, and it seems they are, especially having real people ensure no mistakes. It seems TiVo has reviewed the whole Dish AutoHop vs. broadcast nets and come to their conclusion, with the help of its own attorneys, that they feel confident in the legality of adding TiVo Commercial Skip feature. While the TiVo Commercial Skip is not a compelling feature to me (none of the Bolt is compelling to me, I like my Roamios), it is still GREAT that TiVo has included such a feature and I hope others follow. I really do think TiVo has now upped the anti, and I can't help but think DirecTV will implement its own, long rumored, commercial skip tech and maybe even the cable cos., too, some time next year.

I also think the Quick View is a good feature (again, it does not compel me to buy Bolt as my Roamios are are just fine). I still have my JVC S-VHS machine that has such a similar feature at 1.5X faster than normal and I was using it as recently as last month for several months to watch old Match Games because I needed to save time.

Except for those two new features, the Bolt seems hardly any different from the S5 line. The physical box is the most different thing about the Bolt, but still a Roamio in spirit and function.


----------



## CoxInPHX

wmcbrine said:


> I don't see where you're getting that.


Link to all the available and confusing service plans
https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html


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## BigJimOutlaw

We should really just not buy it. They don't sell tons and tons of boxes. If a product falls flat, they're going to know it quickly.

We've reached a point of diminishing returns. The Roamio was the right product at the right time. The Bolt is coming in too closely behind it and doesn't really serve any compelling demand. Nobody expected or asked for it, therefore nobody is listening.

Other than being a little pissed at the tone deaf pricing, I'm slightly concerned. If newbies don't suddenly bite, they're kind of borked. They're going to have to start over and invent a mega holiday sale with upgrade offers to move product.


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Other than being a little pissed at the tone deaf pricing, I'm slightly concerned. If newbies don't suddenly bite, they're kind of borked. They're going to have to start over and invent a mega holiday sale with upgrade offers to move product.


This is my main concern, as it would affect my existing units.


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## wmcbrine

CoxInPHX said:


> Link to all the available and confusing service plans
> https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html


Yes, I'd read that. I'm asking why people think it says that you can only get Lifetime All-In on initial activation. It doesn't.


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## bricketh

The odd thing to me is the continual pushing of how much cheaper it is than a cable DVR, but then charging what amounts to the same cost over the course of a year or a huge price tag for lifetime (with no apparent mention of multi-service discounts or the ability to apply the bundled first year to reduce that lifetime fee). Beyond that, even if you go with the included year and compare to a cable DVR, you still have the price of the box. I know they have to make money, and keep it profitable for the,selves, but after $15 years, you'd think they could find different revenue streams to keep service pricing more affordable to get it in more homes. By keeping service prices high, it is still going to be a device for enthusiasts, and not the Everyman.

If prices were lower, they could, in theory, get into more homes, and benefit from their ad revenue stream (which would look more attractive to advertisers if they had a larger audience), and could offset the loss of money per unit by selling more units. They also would position themselves for any future desire to create an App Store to even further compete with the Apple TVs and Roku boxes, since they are now built solely on HTML5.

I'm also baffled by their offer of extended warranty coverage to annual subscribers, but not to All-In subscribers... With All-In, they could at least offer a two year warranty or something, considering the plan is basically equivalent to a 4 year commitment...


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## krkaufman

wmcbrine said:


> Yes, I'd read that. I'm asking why people think it says that you can only get Lifetime All-In on initial activation. It doesn't.


I like how the new name for Lifetime service, "All In," makes it seem like gambling.


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## sangs

Jrr6415sun said:


> I think the pricing is great for new customers. I think the average person does not care about lifetime or are even thinking of it like us loyal 10+ year customers. They are obviously targeting new customers with their price structure and features. Buying a box with no monthly fee for a year is a great way to get new customers.
> 
> The $600 lifetime will go down i'm sure, but not for a year or more.
> 
> Yes everyone is keeping their roamios, but new customers will buy the bolt.


Agree completely. I did the math and it is MUCH cheaper than the FiOS equipment/service now. Without incredibly high upfront costs.


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## HeatherA

For the ENTIRE time I have owned TiVo (July 1999) they have continuously had me scratching my head over their pricing schemes. It always comes across as a money grab and I think it's always what has kept TiVo from becoming a household name. Put a reasonable cost on lifetime ($300 or so) and sell tons of boxes. It doesn't seem that complicated to me. Instead they do these crazy things that leave us all baffled and then wonder why they have such a difficult time getting market share. It's 2015... TiVo needs to wake up.

I have four boxes right now, two are Premieres. Both Premieres are ready to upgrade to new boxes when the right deal comes along. One is on the $10 a month plan and the other $6.95. We were hoping the Bolt would be a 6 tuner OTA capable box so we could just buy in and get lifetime. Now I just want to go scoop up two more Roamio basics and be done with it. However, I won't do that at a Lifetime cost of $600. That's ridiculous!!!!! 

 Not sure what we'll do.


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## CoxInPHX

This is Sweet: 
From the FAQs: https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt#/bolt



> That year of included TiVo service sounds sweet, but what happens after my first year of TiVo BOLT bliss comes to an end?
> 
> Before the end of your year of included TiVo service, *we'll give you all kinds of great options to continue your TiVo service.* You'll need to pick one before your year of included TiVo service runs out. If you do not select a different TiVo service plan, your TiVo service automatically will renew on an annual service plan for each successive year.
> See terms & conditions for TiVo Payment Plans for details.


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## NotNowChief

So can I just buy a new box every year, get the one year service, throw it away at the end of the year, and get a new one ever year? 

Am I missing a commitment somewhere?


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## Series3Sub

Yeah, I was quite disappointed with the pricing. It is clear TiVo is putting all its hopes in providing the service FREE for the first year. However, the numbers would seem to just scare away any new people buying a TiVo. You have to love the "non-refundable" annual fee, as in, "if you forget to change your plan and are only a day late, well, we are taking your money for the whole year rate. Too bad"


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## Kremlar

I'm really at a loss on what to do. I like the Bolt in general, I like the focus on being a unified device and potential for more apps down the road. I kind of like the styling. I like the included 1 year of service.

I wish the drive was larger, but 2.5" drives is where the industry is heading, and if you don't need tons of storage immediately it's probably not a huge issue because capacities will continue to increase at that form factor. 

Even at $500 the lifetime was not too attractive to me, so at $600 I would probably stick with the yearly plan.

What I really am unsure about is the 4 available tuners. Especially with no tuner sharing when using Minis (when 2 are watching the same program) I think 4 tuners might get eaten up quickly at my house. If there was a 6 tuner version I would order now without a doubt. 

I'd rather not stick with my current setup any longer, but on the other hand waiting months for a 6 tuner Bolt, and perhaps an updated Mini, is not attractive to me either...


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## jfalkingham

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm.... So no 6 tuner unit? So to get 4k you have to sacrafice 2 tuners, not sure that's worth it.


My only thought is to jettison the Roamio to the bedroom acting as overflow. 6 tuners and I would have already pre ordered it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sixto

I would have bought it and just added an eSATA drive but with only 4 tuners it's a non starter. Will wait for the Bolt Pro. Ah well.


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## jfalkingham

As a longtime TiVo guy I applaud them from doing this. I believe that they may convince more people to give it a go vs their cable setup by not requiring the monthly fees for the first year. Sell the hardware at a reasonable price, get people hooked to the UI and speed, then come at them for the monthly stream of revenue. 

They missed the mark on not having 6 tuners and by changing PLS to $600 seem to have made folks here miffed. Personally I've only used PLS on my premiere and HD when offered for $99 otherwise we've always been monthly for years. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sangs

Sixto said:


> I would have bought it and just added an eSATA drive but with only 4 tuners it's a non starter. Will wait for the Bolt Pro. Ah well.


Same here regarding the eSATA drive. The four tuners doesn't bother me though, would be eight total since I'll be getting two. My teens don't even watch TV anymore, they stream everything on their computers and phones/tablets. And I mean everything. Just the wife and I and with a couple Minis in rooms that don't get used much, so eight total tuners is more than sufficient. Looking forward to giving the Bolt a go.


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## Kremlar

> Same here regarding the eSATA drive. The four tuners doesn't bother me though, would be eight total since I'll be getting two. My teens don't even watch TV anymore, they stream everything on their computers and phones/tablets. And I mean everything. Just the wife and I and with a couple Minis in rooms that don't get used much, so eight total tuners is more than sufficient. Looking forward to giving the Bolt a go.


I thought about 2 units, but that means double the monthly/yearly fees which I'm not fond of...


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## sangs

Kremlar said:


> I thought about 2 units, but that means double the monthly/yearly fees which I'm not fond of...


Yeah, I certainly understand that. In our area, it'll still be cheaper than the FiOS provided hardware and service for a similar setup.


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## bearcat2000

jfalkingham said:


> Personally I've only used PLS on my premiere and HD when offered for $99 otherwise we've always been monthly for years. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not a very good business plan either my friend.


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## Kremlar

I could go with a 4 tuner model, see how it works for us, then when the 6 tuner model is released consider upgrading... and I'd likely still be within my 1 year included subscription.


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## 1larryw

So...I conducted a little experiment last night on some non-techie folk I know. These people always comment about my TiVo when they come over to visit and have been on the fence about getting one because they simply hate their provider DVR compared to working the TiVo.

They told me they went into a store (didn't mention which one, but there aren't many to choose from so...) and were told that a new model would be coming out in time for the holidays. ]

I called them this morning and told them about the BOLT. I explained it to them, and told them about the cost, but did NOT mention the All-In price considering it seems that the pricing info for All In One is buried or not highlighted. They kept hitting on the "free 1 year of service" when doing the purchase math. They are charged about $20/month for their DVR service through their provider. Doing their math, they came up with spending $60 (or less when they add in taxes from their provider DVR) extra for the unit initially for the first year as they pay $240/year plus taxes now.

They then calculated that the second year and years thereafter, they would be saving almost $100/year taking into account the $150 Tivo Annual subscription vs the $240 Provider monthly cost.)

I then told them about the $600 All-In. They asked if it included the Bolt. I told them no....that was still $300 in addition. On instinct, they both went "oh...no...that's too expensive. We're better off going yearly or month to month.

What this told me? That to John or Jane Q. Public, the perception with the new TiVo price points is that it is cheaper than their monthly fee to rent their "crappy DVR" from their provider and paying monthly/yearly...and that the cheaper solution illusion is now emphasized vs pricing things out a couple of years down the road...Thus creating the "consistent revenue stream" it is obvious TiVo is going for.

Personally, I will be sticking with my Premiere 2-tuner with lifetime.


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## sangs

1larryw said:


> What this told me? That to John or Jane Q. Public, the perception with the new TiVo price points is that it is cheaper than their monthly fee to rent their "crappy DVR" from their provider and paying monthly/yearly...and that the cheaper solution illusion is now emphasized vs pricing things out a couple of years down the road...Thus creating the "consistent revenue stream" it is obvious TiVo is going for.


And there's nothing wrong with that, considering John or Jane Q. Public make up the large majority of the viewing audience. (And it would seem to me that TiVo needs them instead of just the hardcores?) Either way, they're saving money and no longer being stuck with a "crappy DVR" from their cable co.


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## innocentfreak

1larryw said:


> I called them this morning and told them about the BOLT. I explained it to them, and told them about the cost, but did NOT mention the All-In price considering it seems that the pricing info for All In One is buried or not highlighted. They kept hitting on the "free 1 year of service" when doing the purchase math. They are charged about $20/month for their DVR service through their provider. Doing their math, they came up with spending $60 (or less when they add in taxes from their provider DVR) extra for the unit initially for the first year as they pay $240/year plus taxes now.


Of course there is a second thing that more than likely happens. The one year passes and then the second year comes up. They see it is another $150 plus $60 for CableCARD, $5 a card on FiOS, and decide to just opt for the DVR from FiOS again.

It is easy to say it is cheaper, but then people always freak out when the bill comes due because they forgot about the $150 upfront.

Hopefully this means TiVo makes money the first year.


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## series5orpremier

Kremlar said:


> I thought about 2 units, but that means double the monthly/yearly fees which I'm not fond of...


Doesn't that also defeat the purpose of the whole "unified entertainment system" concept?


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## tatergator1

1larryw said:


> So...I conducted a little experiment last night on some non-techie folk I know. These people always comment about my TiVo when they come over to visit and have been on the fence about getting one because they simply hate their provider DVR compared to working the TiVo.
> 
> They told me they went into a store (didn't mention which one, but there aren't many to choose from so...) and were told that a new model would be coming out in time for the holidays. ]
> 
> I called them this morning and told them about the BOLT. I explained it to them, and told them about the cost, but did NOT mention the All-In price considering it seems that the pricing info for All In One is buried or not highlighted. They kept hitting on the "free 1 year of service" when doing the purchase math. They are charged about $20/month for their DVR service through their provider. Doing their math, they came up with spending $60 (or less when they add in taxes from their provider DVR) extra for the unit initially for the first year as they pay $240/year plus taxes now.
> 
> They then calculated that the second year and years thereafter, they would be saving almost $100/year taking into account the $150 Tivo Annual subscription vs the $240 Provider monthly cost.)
> 
> I then told them about the $600 All-In. They asked if it included the Bolt. I told them no....that was still $300 in addition. On instinct, they both went "oh...no...that's too expensive. We're better off going yearly or month to month.
> 
> What this told me? That to John or Jane Q. Public, the perception with the new TiVo price points is that it is cheaper than their monthly fee to rent their "crappy DVR" from their provider and paying monthly/yearly...and that the cheaper solution illusion is now emphasized vs pricing things out a couple of years down the road...Thus creating the "consistent revenue stream" it is obvious TiVo is going for.
> 
> Personally, I will be sticking with my Premiere 2-tuner with lifetime.


I agree that this is what Tivo is trying to go after. All of us on the forum are flipping out, but this product was never for us. Tivo is trying to target another segment of the market, and when you look at it from the perspective laid out above, I can appreciate what they're likely trying to do.

I can't speak for everyone, but on all my Tivo purchases, I assume a 4-5 year lifespan of the box and assess box+lifetime amortized over that period. For my last purchase, I did a Roamio Plus for $319 + $399 lifetime. That's a range of $12-$15 per month, which only improves the longer I keep the box in service.

Let's assume the $299 Bolt is actually $149 + $150, with $150/year after. I can see people in the market this targets finding $149 for the box reasonable and accepting $12.50/month when you compare it to what they would pay an MSO for their DVR.


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## innocentfreak

tatergator1 said:


> I agree that this is what Tivo is trying to go after. All of us on the forum are flipping out, but this product was never for us. Tivo is trying to target another segment of the market, and when you look at it from the perspective laid out above, I can appreciate what they're likely trying to do.
> 
> I can't speak for everyone, but on all my Tivo purchases, I assume a 4-5 year lifespan of the box and assess box+lifetime amortized over that period. For my last purchase, I did a Roamio Plus for $319 + $399 lifetime. That's a range of $12-$15 per month, which only improves the longer I keep the box in service.
> 
> Let's assume the $299 Bolt is actually $149 + $150, with $150/year after. I can see people in the market this targets finding $149 for the box reasonable and accepting $12.50/month when you compare it to what they would pay an MSO for their DVR.


I can appreciate it also, but I think the yearly needed to be $100 and not $150 for this to be truly successful. I really think some people are going to flinch and drop TiVo when the year is up due to the pricing. It isn't that much of a savings over the DVR from the cable company depending on your CableCARD costs.

You also forget that lifetime TiVo holds it value. This doesn't help TiVo, but now the used TiVo isn't going to be worth much. Take a $300 Bolt. It includes a year so that drops the value to $150 since no reason to buy a used Bolt at $200 when you don't get the year of service. Now on top of that assume Amazon sells for their usual discounted pricing a year from now and your Bolt might be worth $100. Meanwhile your lifetime Roamio is probably still worth $500.

Also the more I think about the more I think they screwed up going with the 2.5 drive if what Zatz said is true. I think he confirmed it, but at this point not 100% sure. It costs more and as a result they went with a 500GB drive again as the base. It is much like Apple offering the 16GB model. They should have stuck with the 3.5 inch and 1TB as the base.

Thinking of my sister again, I think she won't want to pay $399 for 1TB, and I think TiVo probably could have stuck to $300 with 1TB if they stuck with 3.5 drives.


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## redbeard25

I know it's wishful thinking... but any talk of MSD for the "All in" price? I always buy my Tivos with lifetime, but this is a little ludicrous. I don't get the leap from "one year at $149 included" to "lifetime at $749.") 5-year recoup?


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## trip1eX

For all the talk about the high pricing. The thing is actually cheaper than the list price of the old Roamio basic plus a year of service. And yet has a much faster cpu and more ram, does 4k and does streaming. And has wireless AC. etc.


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## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> For all the talk about the high pricing. The thing is actually cheaper than the list price of the old Roamio basic plus a year of service. And yet has a much faster cpu and more ram, does 4k and does streaming. And has wireless AC. etc.


Yep costs less for monthly/annual buyers and currently costs allot more for lifetime buyers.


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## Kremlar

> and I think TiVo probably could have stuck to $300 with 1TB if they stuck with 3.5 drives.


I doubt that. What would they save by going with a 3.5" drive at 1TB - maybe $10-12? Then they would have additional heat, weight and size.

I think it makes sense going with 2.5" at these price points, but wouldn't be surprised if a Pro model had a 3.5" in a more traditional form factor with 6 tuners.


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## aaronwt

trip1eX said:


> For all the talk about the high pricing. The thing is actually cheaper than the list price of the old Roamio basic plus a year of service. And yet has a much faster cpu and more ram, does 4k and does streaming. And has wireless AC. etc.


But when you compare it to a Roamio Pro with lifetime, the 1TB Bolt costs the same with All In service as the Roamio Pro with Lifetime. $1k. Only you have 33% fewer tuners and 66% less storage space.


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## Chuck_IV

Just got a look at a picture of it... wow that thing is HIDEOUS. So much for stacking anything on it. Not sure what they were thinking design wise but yikes.

I'll have to take a look at the features, just to see, but that design is actually keeping me from even thinking about wanting one.


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## series5orpremier

innocentfreak said:


> I can appreciate it also, but I think the yearly needed to be $100 and not $150 for this to be truly successful.


I agree. I'd go $100/year if I really liked the product (which I don't) and the options were $100/year or $600 lifetime. They'd still get more out of me in the long run than the $400 lifetime each I paid on my Basic and Premier.


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## kbmb

This whole thing sure feels rushed. It's clear that Bolt is the future, as they have relegated the Roamio to the Outlet store. And with increasing the All-In for the Roamios as well....it makes it an even more difficult sell.

And could pricing be anymore complicated? Why no option up front to do the All-In One? Why make people wait the year when they are ready to give you the money now? I think in the end we all really know why....the previous Lifetime was a GREAT deal for the customer.....and a not so great deal in the long run for TiVo.

Wonder if they new design was just to look good for marketing, promos, reviews etc. I mean really....was anyone complaining that the Roamio was too big?!?! Seems like had marketing made design choices, not engineering (didn't they outsource engineering anyway?). Seems that component costs would increase with the move to 2.5" drives. All for what....a smaller box?

I think at this point TiVo is trying to stay alive. The average Joe doesn't even consider a TiVo when his cable company will give him everything he needs. It's just easier. Yeah, it's not as good.....but for most it's more than enough.

Will be interesting to see what Roku does. They seem to be the one company that might include everything needed for streaming.

-Kevin


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## jcthorne

I think the $299 price with one year of service included is a good starting point and will go well in the market.

They should have left lifetime at $499 and allowed the $149 to be applied if lifetime selected at activation. IE 350. I do not see much take rate on the all in plan at $600. I have always purchased lifetime on all my tivos. But not this time. For now anyway.


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## tatergator1

jcthorne said:


> I do not see much take rate on the all in plan at $600. I have always purchased lifetime on all my tivos. But not this time. For now anyway.


And maybe that's exactly what Tivo wants. For all we know, they're testing the limits on Lifetime pricing versus yearly. I would think the target audience would certainly go for the yearly when faced with $600 all-in pricing. If Tivo still sees a decent uptake on the All-In pricing, it could stay that high, but I would suspect it will come back down around 6 months from now.


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## b_scott

such a downgrade. Unless you have 4K cable, pretty much everything else is a step back.


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## b_scott

trip1eX said:


> For all the talk about the high pricing. The thing is actually cheaper than the list price of the old Roamio basic plus a year of service. And yet has a much faster cpu and more ram, does 4k and does streaming. And has wireless AC. etc.


and much less storage and less tuners. which are the main things people here care about.


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## jcthorne

b_scott said:


> such a downgrade. Unless you have 4K cable, pretty much everything else is a step back.


No its a significant upgrade for OTA use. Same 4 tuners, much better processor, built in stream and moca and other items. I am betting on full resolution playback via Plex as well. Just a hunch based on the latest Plex for Tivo release notes. If so, the plex channels list can fill in a bunch of streaming holes in the product offering.


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## Kremlar

> And maybe that's exactly what Tivo wants. For all we know, they're testing the limits on Lifetime pricing versus yearly. I would think the target audience would certainly go for the yearly when faced with $600 all-in pricing. If Tivo still sees a decent uptake on the All-In pricing, it could stay that high, but I would suspect it will come back down around 6 months from now.


I agree that they want recurring revenue.


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## series5orpremier

I guess this pricing plan is also a way to announce the product without being obligated to deliver it in high quantities while they work out the kinks.


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## MikeekiM

Let's all hope the Bolt is super successful... I want TiVo to be around for a lot longer...

That said, I am not upgrading (or is it a downgrade?) from my Roamio Pro...


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## kbmb

Love the back image, seemingly used in most reviews, which seems to have a missing screw above the HDMI port making the back panel look like it's falling off.

-Kevin


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## DaveMN

Wow- that pricing. I could see how it might entice some new customers, but in the long term I don't see any good news here. I'm so glad I hopped on the $500 for a 6 tuner Roamio Plus w/lifetime offer for long-standing customers last year. I'll probably run the Roamio into the ground now and leave TiVo when that unit gives up the ghost.


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## trip1eX

b_scott said:


> and much less storage and less tuners. which are the main things people here care about.


Same storage and tuners as old roamio basic which is what I compared the Bolt too.

Defintely a step down from a Pro/Plus though in this dept.


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## trip1eX

DaveMN said:


> I'll probably run the Roamio into the ground now and leave TiVo when that unit gives up the ghost.


You're going to Bolt from Tivo?


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## AtlantaDad

Anyone have insight on what kind of scaler the Bolt uses and its quality? I'm a new owner of a 4k tv and longtime Tivo owner. Roamio, when it came out, did a MUCH better job of upscaling content to my tv than the tv's own internal scaler. Right now I am outputting at 1080p from the Roamio, which the TV then upscales to 4k (both do a pretty good job). Thinking if the Bolt's scaler is a high quality, the picture would be even better, as you are not upscaling twice, with twice the risk of artifacts being introduced. This is especially true for 720p content, which scales very cleanly straight to 4k, but requires more processing when upscaled to 1080p.

A common question is what would make you upgrade? A great scaler would be a big trigger for me.


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## BobCamp1

redbeard25 said:


> I know it's wishful thinking... but any talk of MSD for the "All in" price? I always buy my Tivos with lifetime, but this is a little ludicrous. I don't get the leap from "one year at $149 included" to "lifetime at $749.") 5-year recoup?


I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.

Edit: MSD is gone. For good.

https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


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## trip1eX

Another bright side is the value of the Roamio Plus/Pro with lifetime went up after this announcement.


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## innocentfreak

Kremlar said:


> I doubt that. What would they save by going with a 3.5" drive at 1TB - maybe $10-12? Then they would have additional heat, weight and size.
> 
> I think it makes sense going with 2.5" at these price points, but wouldn't be surprised if a Pro model had a 3.5" in a more traditional form factor with 6 tuners.


Price a 2.5 500gb vs a 3.5 500gb. WD AV-GP is $50 in 3.5 or $89 for the Blue 2.5. I couldn't find the AV-GP drive in 2.5 on Newegg.

On an unrelated note, I asked my co-worker who has Time Warner. He pays $8 for his HD DVR so no go there.


----------



## worachj




----------



## rifleman69

trip1eX said:


> Another bright side is the value of the Roamio Plus/Pro with lifetime went up after this announcement.


Amen to that! I'll keep the six tuners.


----------



## trip1eX

worachj said:


>


They should put HBO, Cinemax, Starz and Showtime in the chart for a good laugh.


----------



## abeagler

So relieved I took the recent refurb Roamio Basic lifetime deal. I'm on Comcast and so at some point my HD was going to be obsolete with the MPEG4 transition, but I'd been stalling and hoping for a deal on the Plus. The price on the Basic refurb was too good to pass up. 

I'd have hated to find myself a few months from now with a useless TiVo HD, looking at this immense pricing structure for Lifetime on a Bolt.


----------



## caughey

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.
> 
> Edit: MSD is gone. For good.
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


Well, that's just rude.


----------



## abeagler

Skip Mode seems to me a laughably lame feature. I have no idea what network a show is on most of the time. So now they give us a feature that we can use if it happens to be on select networks at the right time, covering about 5% of the channels you might receive. It sounds cool on its surface, but in the details it's pathetically limited.


----------



## andyf

AtlantaDad said:


> Anyone have insight on what kind of scaler the Bolt uses and its quality? I'm a new owner of a 4k tv and longtime Tivo owner. Roamio, when it came out, did a MUCH better job of upscaling content to my tv than the tv's own internal scaler. Right now I am outputting at 1080p from the Roamio, which the TV then upscales to 4k (both do a pretty good job). Thinking if the Bolt's scaler is a high quality, the picture would be even better, as you are not upscaling twice, with twice the risk of artifacts being introduced. This is especially true for 720p content, which scales very cleanly straight to 4k, but requires more processing when upscaled to 1080p.
> 
> A common question is what would make you upgrade? A great scaler would be a big trigger for me.


There's been no mention that the Bolt upscales all output to 4K. As far as I have been able to discern 4K is for streaming only, similar to the 1080p pass through on the Premiers.


----------



## alarson83

I cant find a compelling reason to upgrade from my roamio plus for the price. 

However, i was going to recommend my parents upgrade their premiere to a bolt and get some minis to replace their other cable boxes, but with 4 tuners thats a harder sell. They'd probably need a couple bolts.

That lifetime price is also pretty ridiculous. Considering you'd already get the first year included, you'd have to have the box for 5 years (first year plus $150/year for 4 years) before the annual plan was more expensive... but with this only coming a couple years after the roamio, why should i plan on having it that long?


----------



## jonw747

DaveMN said:


> Wow- that pricing. I could see how it might entice some new customers, but in the long term I don't see any good news here. I'm so glad I hopped on the $500 for a 6 tuner Roamio Plus w/lifetime offer for long-standing customers last year. I'll probably run the Roamio into the ground now and leave TiVo when that unit gives up the ghost.


By the time you've run the Roamio Plus in to the ground, hopefully they'll have had multiple new "Summer Sales" and the like.

I was wondering if their pricing for the Aereo Bolt would be a lot more aggressive to try to attract Aereo customers, but it's not even out yet.

They haven't even run a close out on the Plus/Pro as they are still current products albeit in the "outlet store". If/when they come out with a Bolt replacement for the Plus/Pro we may see the old stock aggressively discounted.

If the market isn't happy with their new pricing structure, they'll have to find a way to address it if they want to continue making direct sales.

Besides, imagine how upset their Summer Sale customers would be if the new Bolt came out and was both more powerful and cheaper than the units they just bought? They've avoided that, at the risk of losing those who would have been early adopters if the price and features were more reasonable.

I bought my Roamio Plus in August, and had held out finishing my system to see what the Bolt would bring. Well, no buyer's remorse here. At least the TiVo Mini was unaffected.


----------



## sicariis

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.
> 
> Edit: MSD is gone. For good.
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


I wonder if the PLSR code will still work.


----------



## BobCamp1

1larryw said:


> I called them this morning and told them about the BOLT. I explained it to them, and told them about the cost, but did NOT mention the All-In price considering it seems that the pricing info for All In One is buried or not highlighted. They kept hitting on the "free 1 year of service" when doing the purchase math. They are charged about $20/month for their DVR service through their provider. Doing their math, they came up with spending $60 (or less when they add in taxes from their provider DVR) extra for the unit initially for the first year as they pay $240/year plus taxes now.
> 
> They then calculated that the second year and years thereafter, they would be saving almost $100/year taking into account the $150 Tivo Annual subscription vs the $240 Provider monthly cost.)
> 
> I then told them about the $600 All-In. They asked if it included the Bolt. I told them no....that was still $300 in addition. On instinct, they both went "oh...no...that's too expensive. We're better off going yearly or month to month.


They didn't realize they would also have to rent a $5-$10/month CableCard, which negates most if not all of the savings. And repairs aren't free, either. And there is no VOD. And more potential for problems (CableCard and SDV). I think at best it's a wash for most people.

Nobody's going to spend $900 + $10/month on a single DVR. And that doesn't even count the Minis at $150 each.


----------



## L David Matheny

bearcat2000 said:


> This product release and pricing structure is exactly what could do the company in. Sad. I think they had an opportunity to bring a ton of new customers in, many on tivocommunity, but that's not gonna happen. I haven't read a single post from anyone on here that's going to order. Everyone is keeping their Roamios.





bricketh said:


> If prices were lower, they could, in theory, get into more homes, and benefit from their ad revenue stream (which would look more attractive to advertisers if they had a larger audience), and could offset the loss of money per unit by selling more units. They also would position themselves for any future desire to create an App Store to even further compete with the Apple TVs and Roku boxes, since they are now built solely on HTML5.





HeatherA said:


> For the ENTIRE time I have owned TiVo (July 1999) they have continuously had me scratching my head over their pricing schemes. It always comes across as a money grab and I think it's always what has kept TiVo from becoming a household name. Put a reasonable cost on lifetime ($300 or so) and sell tons of boxes. It doesn't seem that complicated to me. Instead they do these crazy things that leave us all baffled and then wonder why they have such a difficult time getting market share. It's 2015... TiVo needs to wake up.


Monopolies (and sometimes companies with a unique product) can fall into a trap of believing that their pricing structure gives them something akin to the power to tax. They think that whatever they need to charge, people will pay. Cable companies believe that the people in their service area are cheating if they try to "cut the cord". They assume that if subscriptions go down, they can just plug the new count into a spreadsheet to calculate the new rate required for profitability, and people will just have to cough up the money. But people get tired of being ripped off. I hope TiVo isn't drinking any such Kool-Aid. In the end, they do have to make a profit, of course, but they must do it by providing more value for more customers, not by demanding more from current customers. People can and will "vote with their feet", as the cable companies are finding out.



Chuck_IV said:


> Just got a look at a picture of it... wow that thing is HIDEOUS. So much for stacking anything on it. Not sure what they were thinking design wise but yikes.
> 
> I'll have to take a look at the features, just to see, but that design is actually keeping me from even thinking about wanting one.


The styling is indeed bizarre to the point of being aggressively ugly. And white?! Seriously?


----------



## krkaufman

alarson83 said:


> That lifetime price is also pretty ridiculous. Considering you'd already get the first year included, you'd have to have the box for 5 years (first year plus $150/year for 4 years) before the annual plan was more expensive... but with this only coming a couple years after the roamio, why should i plan on having it that long?


And then consider the repair/replacement risk you're taking on with the Lifetime/All-In plan, versus being on a subscription.


----------



## Chuck_IV

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.
> 
> Edit: MSD is gone. For good.
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


Wow, this kind of thing really makes me wonder if they are on their last legs. It also makes me wonder if they will bring back the $5/mo fee on Minis, if/when they introduce a "new" white one.

With these new prices, it's definitely gonna make me think twice about recommending Tivo to anybody. It was already hard with the initial outlay of cash. It just got even harder.


----------



## bearcat2000

Seriously though...yesterday you could buy a Roamio with lifetime for $150+$250 lifetime...today it is $199+$600 lifetime. Get real TiVo. Seriously, it went up double?!?


----------



## wmcbrine

abeagler said:


> Skip Mode seems to me a laughably lame feature. I have no idea what network a show is on most of the time.


You don't need to -- the programs will be marked in the NPL, as I understand it, and you'll get an on-screen prompt when the feature is available.



> _So now they give us a feature that we can use if it happens to be on select networks at the right time, covering about 5% of the channels you might receive. It sounds cool on its surface, but in the details it's pathetically limited._


Did you check the list? I did, and it looks like the majority of my season passes OnePasses would be covered.



alarson83 said:


> i was going to recommend my parents upgrade their premiere to a bolt and get some minis to replace their other cable boxes, but with 4 tuners thats a harder sell. They'd probably need a couple bolts.


TiVo added dynamic tuning a while back, so that a Mini no longer ties up a tuner on the host unless it's actively using it.


----------



## b_scott

trip1eX said:


> Same storage and tuners as old roamio basic which is what I compared the Bolt too.
> 
> Defintely a step down from a Pro/Plus though in this dept.


every new Tivo gen has increased storage. Except this one. It's like Tivo lite.


----------



## redbeard25

Chuck_IV said:


> Wow, this kind of thing really makes me wonder if they are on their last legs. It also makes me wonder if they will bring back the $5/mo fee on Minis, if/when they introduce a "new" white one.
> 
> With these new prices, it's definitely gonna make me think twice about recommending Tivo to anybody. It was already hard with the initial outlay of cash. It just got even harder.


This is definitely a line of demarcation that is harder than any in the past.


*The new pricing structure is designed to make you upgrade more often.* Think about it. If they keep this "service included" pricing model going, then it makes *much* more sense when the "Bolt 2" is released next year to purchase it instead of keeping your original Bolt. Why spend $900 to keep your Bolt running past the initial 12 months when you could get all-new hardware for $300-$400 next year. In that sense, Tivo wants you to treat them like a cellphone company. Keep the plan going, and everyone is investors are happy. 
*Tivo is willing to draw a line in the sand and view "legacy" Tivo customers differently from new ones.* I don't remember this coming up in the Tivo customer monthly surveys that I've been doing for the past decade... but with the removal of MSD and no offers to current Tivo customers, they seem to be saying "this is the new way of doing business." _However,_ customers who are new to the Bolt way of doing things don't have the frame of reference that we have, and, theoretically, may be more open to the monthly fee when it is a replacement fee for their cable DVR/box. The huge cost of "All in" from Tivo's point of view is simply a market deterrent.

I'm on the fence as to whether I want a Bolt or not. I'm definitely in a "wait and see" right now, because my base Roamio with the 3TB drive upgrade / 2 minis are solid, performant, and really doesn't seem to be needing any attention right now.


----------



## innocentfreak

redbeard25 said:


> This is definitely a line of demarcation that is harder than any in the past.
> 
> 
> *The new pricing structure is designed to make you upgrade more often.* Think about it. If they keep this "service included" pricing model going, then it makes *much* more sense when the "Bolt 2" is released next year to purchase it instead of keeping your original Bolt. Why spend $900 to keep your Bolt running past the initial 12 months when you could get all-new hardware for $300-$400 next year. In that sense, Tivo wants you to treat them like a cellphone company. Keep the plan going, and everyone is investors are happy.





TiVo doesn't release a new product often enough though. It isn't like the cell phone market where they release every year. It was I think 2-3 years from Premiere to Roamio and 2 years from Roamio to Bolt.

Of course maybe TiVo is doing this since no one knows what the future holds with TiVo until the FCC makes a decision. Then a year from now assuming something actually happens they could roll out a new model compatible with the change from CableCARD.


----------



## andyw715

They seem to be a bit arrogant with this line In the sand; especially with such a niche product. Don't they realize that the current customer is their only source of successful product promotion?


----------



## mjcxp

andyw715 said:


> They seem to be a bit arrogant with this line In the sand; especially with such a niche product. Don't they realize that the current customer is their only source of successful product promotion?


Maybe these changes were necessary to remain profitable. I highly doubt selling Tivos for $300 is a sustainable business model in the long term.


----------



## redbeard25

innocentfreak said:


> TiVo doesn't release a new product often enough though. It isn't like the cell phone market where they release every year. It was I think 2-3 years from Premiere to Roamio and 2 years from Roamio to Bolt.
> 
> Of course maybe TiVo is doing this since no one knows what the future holds with TiVo until the FCC makes a decision. Then a year from now assuming something actually happens they could roll out a new model compatible with the change from CableCARD.


That's kind of my point - I think they want to shift your perception, and investors want people to change their buying habits. Buying a new box every 2-4 years isn't fast enough for electronics... they want a tighter cycle. I'm betting the "Bolt 2" will have a hard drive bump and a couple of little added features, and that original Bolts won't get the upgrade. But, for just $300, you can upgrade to the new Bolt 2 and get a year of service included!

The "Continual Care" warranty seems to be an indicator of this too. Very cell phone-like.


----------



## abeagler

wmcbrine said:


> You don't need to -- the programs will be marked in the NPL, as I understand it, and you'll get an on-screen prompt when the feature is available.
> 
> Did you check the list? I did, and it looks like the majority of my season passes OnePasses would be covered.


Ah, that helps with the on-screen prompt. But, in looking at the channels with which they're launching, I see maybe two for which I have passes. I would like to see this on sports channels. I find it surprising that SyFy is in the 20 most-watched networks while ESPN is not.


----------



## Jed1

andyw715 said:


> They seem to be a bit arrogant with this line In the sand; especially with such a niche product. Don't they realize that the current customer is their only source of successful product promotion?


Actually this is TiVo's problem. Their retail sub numbers have been dropping for years which made TiVo a niche product. I see them moving away from these niche type of customers in order to try to attract new customers.


----------



## abeagler

Not that it much matters to me, but it looks like there's no Component-Out option, not even with breakout cables? There's an audio l/r out jack, but Bolt appears to be HDMI-only for video.


----------



## Dan203

abeagler said:


> Not that it much matters to me, but it looks like there's no Component-Out option, not even with breakout cables? There's an audio l/r out jack, but Bolt appears to be HDMI-only for video.


Because it's 4K and 4K only works over HDMI


----------



## jcthorne

abeagler said:


> Not that it much matters to me, but it looks like there's no Component-Out option, not even with breakout cables? There's an audio l/r out jack, but Bolt appears to be HDMI-only for video.


This is exactly like the current OTA/Cable Roamio.


----------



## redbeard25

abeagler said:


> Ah, that helps with the on-screen prompt. But, in looking at the channels with which they're launching, I see maybe two for which I have passes. I would like to see this on sports channels. I find it surprising that SyFy is in the 20 most-watched networks while ESPN is not.


This has to do with the technique that they're using. They're basically getting humans to watch the shows and mark the start and end of commercial blocks, then sending that metadata to the Bolt boxes. So, when you press play on your DVRed show, if the metadata has made it back, you'll get the skip options.

Because that's their technique, it won't work on live/semi-live content... they can't realtime mark the commercials and let you skip. Or, if they do, it would only be of use to some viewers. There'd be no way of knowing how far ahead in a live broadcast it would have to be to get the commercial skip data in.

For ESPN, the majority of that viewing (except Sportscenter) is live or near-live (start an hour into a two hour game.)


----------



## bradleys

abeagler said:


> Skip Mode seems to me a laughably lame feature. I have no idea what network a show is on most of the time. So now they give us a feature that we can use if it happens to be on select networks at the right time, covering about 5% of the channels you might receive. It sounds cool on its surface, but in the details it's pathetically limited.


You don't understand skip mode at all... It has nothing to do with live TV.

Look at it again.


----------



## b_scott

redbeard25 said:


> This is definitely a line of demarcation that is harder than any in the past.
> 
> 
> *The new pricing structure is designed to make you upgrade more often.* Think about it. If they keep this "service included" pricing model going, then it makes *much* more sense when the "Bolt 2" is released next year to purchase it instead of keeping your original Bolt. Why spend $900 to keep your Bolt running past the initial 12 months when you could get all-new hardware for $300-$400 next year. In that sense, Tivo wants you to treat them like a cellphone company. Keep the plan going, and everyone is investors are happy.
> *Tivo is willing to draw a line in the sand and view "legacy" Tivo customers differently from new ones.* I don't remember this coming up in the Tivo customer monthly surveys that I've been doing for the past decade... but with the removal of MSD and no offers to current Tivo customers, they seem to be saying "this is the new way of doing business." _However,_ customers who are new to the Bolt way of doing things don't have the frame of reference that we have, and, theoretically, may be more open to the monthly fee when it is a replacement fee for their cable DVR/box. The huge cost of "All in" from Tivo's point of view is simply a market deterrent.
> 
> I'm on the fence as to whether I want a Bolt or not. I'm definitely in a "wait and see" right now, because my base Roamio with the 3TB drive upgrade / 2 minis are solid, performant, and really doesn't seem to be needing any attention right now.


great post. Very true. While all cell phone carriers are moving away from subsidized back to "buy your phone", Tivo is a company going backwards.


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> Because it's 4K and 4K only works over HDMI


it's only 4K if you use 4K. I don't have any cable that is 4K...


----------



## bradleys

b_scott said:


> it's only 4K if you use 4K. I don't have any cable that is 4K...


I not sure the two are mutually exclusive. Do any other 4k source systems have analog out? This may be the end of the analog loop hole.


----------



## jonw747

A rapid upgrade model for a DVR would be interesting if a) there was an easy and fast way to transfer ALL content over to a new DVR, and b) they were renting the box with no upfront fee like the Cable companies do.


----------



## Papageno

Ugh, just got a look at this thing. No thanks for 3 reasons (well, 4 if you count no need for 4k, but apart from that):

1) Funky shape.

2) Not offered in black (or is it?).

3) 2.5 in HDD. (bleep) that noise.


----------



## Dan203

bradleys said:


> I not sure the two are mutually exclusive. Do any other 4k source systems have analog out? This may be the end of the analog loop hole.


That's what I was getting at. I don't think 4K devices are allowed to have component outputs, even if they are downscaled to HD.


----------



## Dan203

jonw747 said:


> A rapid upgrade model for a DVR would be interesting if a) there was an easy and fast way to transfer ALL content over to a new DVR, and b) they were renting the box with no upfront fee like the Cable companies do.


I think they need this anyway. They have all the technology in place to do this already, they just need to pull it all together into a migration feature. (they even have a way to copy protected content legally)


----------



## b_scott

Dan203 said:


> That's what I was getting at. I don't think 4K devices are allowed to have component outputs, even if they are downscaled to HD.


info? I doubt that's the case. Considering you can output lower resolution (and have to most likely if you have a 1080p TV)


----------



## redbeard25

jonw747 said:


> A rapid upgrade model for a DVR would be interesting if a) there was an easy and fast way to transfer ALL content over to a new DVR, and b) they were renting the box with no upfront fee like the Cable companies do.


This feels like an intermediate step to get there. Tivo did experiment with $20/month service at one time.

The content transfer issue is probably also one that primarily a legacy customer deals with. Current customers are more used to the disposability of shows. Alternatively, I could see that as a "Bolt 2" feature. "Install your Bolt 2 and leave your Bolt 1 on, and we'll silently transfer all your recorded shows to the new Tivo in the background."


----------



## redbeard25

Note that Tivo no longer refers to the Bolt as a DVR. It's a "Unified Entertainment System." There's nothing that spells out why... it's still got DVR capability. But, it's a sign that Tivo views themselves more in the OTT space than the DVR space. The route from here forward is "an OTT box that also lets you DVR live TV."


----------



## b_scott

redbeard25 said:


> This feels like an intermediate step to get there. Tivo did experiment with $20/month service at one time.
> 
> The content transfer issue is probably also one that primarily a legacy customer deals with. Current customers are more used to the disposability of shows. Alternatively, I could see that as a "Bolt 2" feature. "Install your Bolt 2 and leave your Bolt 1 on, and we'll silently transfer all your recorded shows to the new Tivo in the background."


I've had Tivo since 2005 and I treat shows as disposable. I record, watch, delete. And always have.


----------



## NashGuy

For anyone on here considering buying a Bolt (and I don't think there are many), just thought I'd mention again that if you want the All-In Plan (i.e. Lifetime Service), you cannot buy the Bolt from TiVo.com but must get it from another retailer like Amazon or Best Buy and then, upon activation, pay TiVo $600 plus tax for All-In. Unless TiVo changes the current policy (which, given their history, is quite likely), you will not have the option to add All-In after activation (e.g. when the initial one year of "free" service is up).

As I and others on here have already stated, TiVo has apparently concluded that lifetime service isn't really in their interest. I guess they didn't want to completely take away that option for whatever reason but they are making it very difficult to get, given that any mention of it is buried in fine print in a pop-up window and that it's not even an option on the units they sell themselves. And frankly, given the current pricing scheme, I think very few consumers would find All-In attractive. Given that you're throwing away the initial year of "free" service valued at $150, plus paying another $600, you're looking at a 5-year break-even period. And unlike units on the recurring yearly/monthly plans, All-In units will not be covered by extended warranty. How often have you had a piece of electronics fail within its first five years? All-In/Lifetime does not transfer to another unit. And are you sure that you want to remain married to your cable company for the next five years? Forget about switching to satellite, U-verse or Google Fiber. Technology and the TV landscape are changing pretty fast and five years is a long time.

All that said, $300 up-front for the box and first year of service, then $150 a year thereafter isn't bad if you're paying $20 a month for your current cable DVR that's not-so-good. But some folks pay less or get DVR for "free" for a year or more as part of a cable bundle. (Of course, there's still the possible charge for CableCards as well as the hassle of activating them.) I don't know, maybe the Bolt with its current pricing will be marginally more successful at drawing in new subscribers to the TiVo fold than the Roamio was but I kinda doubt it. (And given that TiVo's stock is down slightly today, it would appear that investors agree.)


----------



## abeagler

bradleys said:


> You don't understand skip mode at all... It has nothing to do with live TV.
> 
> Look at it again.


I wasn't talking about it as a feature for live TV. Rather, my point is that for timeshifted TV, the array of channels and timeslots to which it applies is really narrow for a feature getting so much attention. And, since I treat passes as a set-it-and-forget-it kind of feature, sometimes a show will come from a timeslot for which Skip Mode is available, sometimes not.

So, for instance, my son likes to record Chopped on Food Network. Chopped is on all the time, and since we haven't watched old seasons, a OnePass will record a ton of episodes. Some of them will have been recorded in the magical Skip Mode time window, some will not. Some of them will air a few times a day, some within that window and some not. This is not rare - a lot of cable networks do multiple airings a day of shows (HGTV is another).

One of the main appeals of TiVo is that you don't have to care when TV airs anymore, it gets your shows and then you watch them when you want. If you want to use Skip Mode, though, now you have to care when shows aired.

That was my point. So, did I understand Skip Mode correctly, in your opinion?

As to the note above on live sports - I get that they're not sending out live updates to commercial markers in real time, so yes, that makes sense that they didn't include ESPN (assuming ESPN isn't one of the top 20 most watched networks). But what this means, again, is that one of the most appealing features of their new DVR is can't be used if you are timeshifting live sports and starting a game, say, a few hours after it starts.

This was my point - the marketing of Skip Mode is "The TiVo BOLT skips entire commercial breaks at the press of a single button. No more guesswork, overshooting or button mashing." The reality of Skip Mode is "The TiVo Bolt skips entire commercial breaks on a small percentage of channels for shows aired during one third of the day, and you have to wait until the show is done recording, so you can't use it if you simply start watching late."

That disconnect between marketing and reality leaves the feature much less exciting than its hype.


----------



## filovirus

For those with and intent on keeping Cable for the foreseeable future, we can eventually (say when our Roamio hardware dies) go with Cable co crap boxes for 10-15 per outlet, or give a portion to TiVo. TiVo has to see if they can swing this new paradigm and gain customers. Cable lease equipment doesn't give me ott services like TiVo does. 

We still need to see if a new Bolt mini/AFTV stick comes without a fee. Outlet fee savings is still a major benefit for me using TiVo. $12.50 a month for a Bolt tied to 2 Minis still nets me a savings of 20.00 in Comcast outlet fees. "Cancelling" Comcast yearly also nets me a savings of $850 or so a year. 

I hope Tivo can make this work and strengthen their company with more paying customers. I am very interested to see what they do with the Aereo version as this one is likely to be a huge seller for the cord cutting masses, a group that will have enough savings to put money towards a TiVo and still come out ahead. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## abeagler

Dan203 said:


> That's what I was getting at. I don't think 4K devices are allowed to have component outputs, even if they are downscaled to HD.


Ah, thanks for the explanation. Functionally, this is another degraded feature of the Bolt as compared to its predecessors. I imagine the number of people who want Component is very small by now (I use it sometimes to connect to an older projector), but for that audience it may be a problem.


----------



## redbeard25

abeagler said:


> Some of them will air a few times a day, some within that window and some not.


_Theoretically,_ if it's a "first run" show, it should pick up the skip info regardless of when the Tivo actually recorded it. I would assume the same holds true for east coast/west coast feeds of network shows - the commercial breaks for Survivor at 9:00 p.m. Eastern will be the same as the Survivor that airs at 9:00 p.m. Pacific. So, whether you recorded the first play of Chopped at 8:00 Eastern or the rebroadcast later in the night, I would _assume_ the skip info would be layered onto it.

Of course, they'll be working out kinks, I'm sure. I'm also interested in what the "latency" will actually be on this. Will you be able to skip a half-hour long 8:00 p.m. show if you start it playing at 8:15? 8:30? 9:17? 11:42?


----------



## aaronwt

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.
> 
> Edit: MSD is gone. For good.
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


I wonder if the PLSR code still works for $100 off?


----------



## dswallow

In the sense that with the Roamio the product line has moved to a server/client system where the likelihood is most households need just one Roamio/Bolt/primary unit, and additional outlets only need a Mini, and where a Mini represents no supplemental income to TiVo and may be considered a dilution of sorts over what TiVo used to see as their revenue model, I can understand increasing the lifetime costs since there's little to no reason to ever expect a (most) household(s) to have two (or more) primary units anymore.

Of course, that leaves the TiVo ecosystem missing a few pieces -- like a Mini supporting 4K output, or a [Bolt model] primary/base unit supporting more than 1TB (and I implicitly exclude the 1TB add-on eSATA device as a bastard child left over from another era) or more than 4 tuners.

But I do think it's clear their primary comparison model is against the $20/month/DVR fee from the Cable company that is common enough. And maybe to some extent the concept of seeing the OEM version of the Bolt a potential Cable-company-supplied device in place of their traditional DVR, and thus may want the overall pricing to not be so different than a rental model from the cable company, but just an alternative.

I still heartily say: stupid, stupid people run this company.


----------



## innocentfreak

redbeard25 said:


> That's kind of my point - I think they want to shift your perception, and investors want people to change their buying habits. Buying a new box every 2-4 years isn't fast enough for electronics... they want a tighter cycle. I'm betting the "Bolt 2" will have a hard drive bump and a couple of little added features, and that original Bolts won't get the upgrade. But, for just $300, you can upgrade to the new Bolt 2 and get a year of service included!
> 
> The "Continual Care" warranty seems to be an indicator of this too. Very cell phone-like.


My point is more TiVo should have established the model first before switching the pricing. Show me you will have a new model I will be tempted by every year and then switch to a pricing model that supports constant refreshing. For example due if they release the Bolt 2 on 9/30/16.

I have long said every year TiVo should do exactly what you are saying, but they don't sell enough to do that. They would have to buy less units at launch which would drive up their costs at least on hard drives.


----------



## HarperVision

jcthorne said:


> This is exactly like the current OTA/Cable Roamio.


No, the current base and OTA models have an AV out jack that also has composite video, but the new Bolt only has L/R audio on that jack, no composite.


----------



## Dan203

b_scott said:


> info? I doubt that's the case. Considering you can output lower resolution (and have to most likely if you have a 1080p TV)


I'm betting the Netflix and Amazon apps will simply drop to the old SD versions when not connected to a 4K TV. They're not downscaling 4K to 1080p. That being said TiVo could have probably added component and simply blocked it while displaying 4K, like they do when there is an active HDCP connection now. So maybe the lack on component has nothing to do with 4K and just stems from the fact that most people don't need it any more, especially on their primary TV where the TiVo is likely to be.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting the Netflix and Amazon apps will simply drop to the old SD versions when not connected to a 4K TV. They're not downscaling 4K to 1080p. That being said TiVo could have probably added component and simply blocked it while displaying 4K, like they do when there is an active HDCP connection now. So maybe the lack on component has nothing to do with 4K and just stems from the fact that most people don't need it any more, especially on their primary TV where the TiVo is likely to be.


So is that verified that 4K content won't be downscaled to 2K? Because that would be a plus to have downscaled 4K content. Then you could have video quality closer to BD quality than the current 2K streaming.


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## HarperVision

Is there anywhere where it says that you "have to" use their external WD hard drive to expand, or can you use any eSATA drive? When they mentioned it in the literature I remember reading late last night, they mentioned the TiVo WD external, but I don't recall them saying you "had to" use that.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> So is that verified that 4K content won't be downscaled to 2K? Because that would be a plus to have downscaled 4K content. Then you could have video quality closer to BD quality than the current 2K streaming.


I think we'll have to wait for one to get into customers hands before we know for sure.


----------



## HarperVision

aaronwt said:


> So is that verified that 4K content won't be downscaled to 2K? Because that would be a plus to have downscaled 4K content. Then you could have video quality closer to BD quality than the current 2K streaming.


I would like that, and it may be the thing that pushes me over the edge to get one, especially when Vudu starts doing movies at 4K.


----------



## HeatherA

BobCamp1 said:


> I didn't see any mention of MSD pricing at all on the Web site. Is it gone? Maybe you have to log in to your account to see it.
> 
> Edit: MSD is gone. For good.
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor.../Features_Use/Multi-Service-Discount-Policies


They sound like real a-holes when you read that page.


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> Is there anywhere where it says that you "have to" use their external WD hard drive to expand, or can you use any eSATA drive? When they mentioned it in the literature I remember reading late last night, they mentioned the TiVo WD external, but I don't recall them saying you "had to" use that.


Yes you have to. Originally they allowed any esata drive on the S3 units but they found that some drives just weren't fast enough to work properly so with the Premiere they started requiring you to use a qualified drive, which was only the WD DVR expander. That continued with the Roamio. And likely continued with the Bolt.


----------



## slice1900

What a joke!

Few cable companies charge more than $12.50/month for their boxes, and while they aren't Tivos, they have improved quite a bit over the years to where most of them are "good enough" for people who won't want to deal with support hassles from having their own equipment. They will get few to bite on these ridiculously priced boat anchors. If they go bankrupt, they deserve it.

I think they not only no longer care about existing customers, they don't care about customers who want to own Tivo hardware at all. They'll continue selling it since not all cable companies offer them, but their primary focus now is likely on getting cable companies to upsell to their customers.

The skip mode is a stupid gimmick, only working on the 20 "most popular" channels during a third of the day means you can't depend on it. It takes one to at most five seconds to use the 30 second skip to bypass commercials, depending on whether I overshoot and have to back up slightly. Quick mode sounds useful, hopefully it is true that it will come to Premiere, but if not it won't get me to upgrade to Bolt, or even Roamio. This is the ONLY thing the Bolt adds I'd want!

To those suggesting that Tivo wants people to upgrade more often, why in the world would that be a good deal? Is anyone seriously going to spend $300 every year to get the newest model? The resale value of Bolts will be TERRIBLE, because people will only want them new with the year of service. Why pay even $50 for a used one with no warranty that will cost you $150 for a year of service, when you can get a new (and presumably improved) one for $300 that includes the service and comes with a warranty? Not to mention it is 2015 and Tivo STILL doesn't have a way to transfer ALL settings from an old model to new. Apple was the first to realize people want that in a phone and make it dead simple to do, now all phones do it because it makes perfect sense. Tivo is too stupid to realize the same is true with a DVR.


----------



## JoeKustra

I think it's time for a Bolt forum.


----------



## NashGuy

aaronwt said:


> So is that verified that 4K content won't be downscaled to 2K? Because that would be a plus to have downscaled 4K content. Then you could have video quality closer to BD quality than the current 2K streaming.


I guess we won't know for sure until someone tries it but I would be _shocked_ if Netflix, Amazon, etc. even offer a UHD stream through their apps if the Bolt isn't connected to a UHD TV. The HDMI connection, of course, will tell the Bolt if your TV is 720, 1080 or 2160p. The streaming providers won't want to use the extra bandwidth for those higher bitrate UHD streams if the end user doesn't have a UHD TV.

That said, Amazon has said that its new Fire TV will provide HEVC-encoded 1080p streams for users without UHD TVs. Given that HEVC (h.265) is about twice as efficient as AVC (h.264), that would mean HD that's better-quality, less bandwidth intensive, or some combination of the two. Given that the Bolt can decode HEVC, it's very possible we'll see streaming providers serve it HEVC-encoded 1080p rather than the AVC-encoded 1080p we get on our Roamios.


----------



## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> All that said, $300 up-front for the box and first year of service, then $150 a year thereafter isn't bad if you're paying $20 a month for your current cable DVR that's not-so-good. But some folks pay less or get DVR for "free" for a year or more as part of a cable bundle. (Of course, there's still the possible charge for CableCards as well as the hassle of activating them.) I don't know, maybe the Bolt with its current pricing will be marginally more successful at drawing in new subscribers to the TiVo fold than the Roamio was but I kinda doubt it. (And given that TiVo's stock is down slightly today, it would appear that investors agree.)


As you indicate, the pitch for TiVo is difficult for single screen homes when cable providers are giving away or deeply discounting their premium DVRs as part of package bundles. The cost justification for TiVo improves as you increase the number of screens where you want your content, both because cable providers almost never discount their additional screen rates and because the Mini will meet many users' basic needs for streaming apps*, obviating the need for an additional streaming device per screen.

* p.s. Given that Hulu Plus is absent from the Bolt rollout, I have to wonder if it will be similarly unavailable to Bolt-connected TiVo Minis.


----------



## aaronwt

slice1900 said:


> What a joke!
> 
> Few cable companies charge more than $12.50/month for their boxes, ..........


Don't the major ones charge around $20? I know Comcast does around here and so does FiOS.


----------



## NashGuy

slice1900 said:


> I think they not only no longer care about existing customers, they don't care about customers who want to own Tivo hardware at all. They'll continue selling it since not all cable companies offer them, but their primary focus now is likely on getting cable companies to upsell to their customers.


I think they care about the retail business (folks who own TiVos) ONLY because the fat margins on those subscribers basically pay for their overall R&D costs. This allows them to continue expanding their low-margin MSO partnerships (folks who rent a cable company-supplied TiVo). It was recently revealed that TiVo only makes about $2 per subscriber on those MSO deals.

http://www.fierceonlinevideo.com/st...-business-anytime-soon-chopra-says/2014-06-04


----------



## keenanSR

aaronwt said:


> So is that verified that 4K content won't be downscaled to 2K? Because that would be a plus to have downscaled 4K content. Then you could have video quality closer to BD quality than the current 2K streaming.


It will probably work the same way it does currently, if the Netflix app doesn't see 4K capability you won't see the 4K tag on titles and it will just send the 1080p stream. Having it downscale would mean more hardware, something I doubt TiVo would be interested in doing, even if licensing permitted it.


----------



## keenanSR

aaronwt said:


> Don't the major ones charge around $20? I knwo Comcast does around here and so does FiOS.


In the SF market, it's $9.95 for the X1 DVR service and $10.00 for the HD Technology fee(the box itself).


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> I wonder if the PLSR code still works for $100 off?


It did not work about a month ago. Now TiVo will not let me use my test Series 2 to try activation and see the cost and check out the PLSR code. TiVo will not activate the Series 2 and I assume also any Series 1. I have an old activated Series 2, will test later to see if it still works.


----------



## Jrr6415sun

worachj said:


>


I wonder if tivo has to pay a monthly fee to these networks or cable providers to provide skip mode. I can't imagine the networks would be happy about it unless they're getting something for it.


----------



## keenanSR

Jrr6415sun said:


> I wonder if tivo has to pay a monthly fee to these networks or cable providers to provide skip mode. I can't imagine the networks would be happy about it unless they're getting something for it.


I'm really curious to see this in action, it seems fraught with issues, especially since you have 20 real people doing the ad skipping, it seems like a 1980's sort of solution to me.


----------



## Jrr6415sun

BobCamp1 said:


> They didn't realize they would also have to rent a $5-$10/month CableCard, which negates most if not all of the savings. And repairs aren't free, either. And there is no VOD. And more potential for problems (CableCard and SDV). I think at best it's a wash for most people.
> 
> Nobody's going to spend $900 + $10/month on a single DVR. And that doesn't even count the Minis at $150 each.


people spend $5-$10 a month for a cable card? Mine is only $2.50, while my TWC boxes were $12-$15 a month (+tax) just for one box. I save a ton by using tivo and minis instead.


----------



## DrewTivo

b_scott said:


> great post. Very true. While all cell phone carriers are moving away from subsidized back to "buy your phone", Tivo is a company going backwards.


True, but in mobile phones the phone manufacturers and the mobile service providers are different companies.

Tivo is integrated - they offer both the service and the hardware.

If you want a closer analogy, look at Apple, which introduced a new program with the iPhone 6S that allows you to upgrade each year.


----------



## jadziedzic

Does the Bolt make my Premiere XL with lifetime worth any more than last week?

Anyone wanna buy a Premiere XL?


----------



## The Singing Bush

slice1900 said:


> What a joke!
> 
> Few cable companies charge more than $12.50/month for their boxes,


I switched from FiOS last year, and I was paying $40 for one DVR and two boxes. $20 for the DVR and 10 for each box.


----------



## keenanSR

Jrr6415sun said:


> people spend $5-$10 a month for a cable card? Mine is only $2.50, while my TWC boxes were $12-$15 a month just for one box. I save a ton by using tivo and minis instead.


Comcast SF market it's $1.50 per card with an FCC-mandated customer owned equipment credit of $2.50. For the 2 cards I have, I pay a total of $0.50 per month.


----------



## NashGuy

HarperVision said:


> I am SERIOUSLY now considering just going all DirecTV and dumping TiVo altogether for the first time since Jan 2000!
> 
> Oh, and the picture quality absolutely SUCKS with Oceanic TWC here through my Roamio!
> 
> I can't even begin to tell you how much better the DirecTV PQ looks at this point! I can actually watch NFL Network now without the image breaking up into a million mpeg blocks at the slightest bit of motion in the image!


Yeah, one of the funny things to me about TiVo is that it seems to appeal to AV enthusiasts, folks who really love TV and are willing to seek out and invest in a superior alternative. But on the other hand, it only works with cable and, for people in certain areas, FiOS. I know FiOS has (or used to have) great HD picture quality but I've never thought cable's HD PQ was as good as DirecTV or Dish. I know cable will vary from place to place but based on what I've personally seen in various cities and systems, it typically falls well short of satellite. Comcast around here is definitely not as good as satellite.

I only ended up coming to TiVo when I cut the cord earlier this year. If I were to return to pay TV, it would probably mean going back to satellite or maybe Google Fiber when it arrives. Setting aside price and just looking at overall quality, I don't see Comcast + TiVo as being a better option than DirecTV + Genie or DISH + Hopper given that satellite has superior HD PQ plus DVRs that, if not quite as good as TiVo in some ways, are still very good.


----------



## DrewTivo

b_scott said:


> I've had Tivo since 2005 and I treat shows as disposable. I record, watch, delete. And always have.


Same. That said, changing units requires two things: (1) carrying over settings; (2) transferring unwatched content. The latter is reasonably easy to do, the former not quite so much.


----------



## lessd

keenanSR said:


> Comcast SF market it's $1.50 per card with an FCC-mandated customer owned equipment credit of $2.50. For the 2 cards I have, I pay a total of $0.50 per month.


The Hartford CT market is $1.00/card and the $2.50 CR on only the first card, so if you have no cable co cable TV equipment the first outlet has a free cable card + a $2.50cr, the 2nd cable card is $1.00.


----------



## Jrr6415sun

innocentfreak said:


> TiVo doesn't release a new product often enough though. It isn't like the cell phone market where they release every year. It was I think 2-3 years from Premiere to Roamio and 2 years from Roamio to Bolt.
> 
> Of course maybe TiVo is doing this since no one knows what the future holds with TiVo until the FCC makes a decision. Then a year from now assuming something actually happens they could roll out a new model compatible with the change from CableCARD.


well they want you to upgrade every 2-3 years, instead of every 6 years. That is why the lifetime cost is 5 years. If lifetime was less then most people would have it and they would have less of an incentive to upgrade.


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## Jrr6415sun

keenanSR said:


> Comcast SF market it's $1.50 per card with an FCC-mandated customer owned equipment credit of $2.50. For the 2 cards I have, I pay a total of $0.50 per month.


how do you get that credit? never heard of it. Do I have to ask for it?


----------



## DrewTivo

abeagler said:


> Skip Mode seems to me a laughably lame feature. I have no idea what network a show is on most of the time. So now they give us a feature that we can use if it happens to be on select networks at the right time, covering about 5% of the channels you might receive. It sounds cool on its surface, but in the details it's pathetically limited.


It may not do as much as one might want, but it appears to supplement the existing 30-second skip, right? In other words, you can keep using the existing skip, but for some shows on some networks it will automatically skip the ads for you based on some guy in India inserting a skip code at the right time stamp.


----------



## met_fan

Jrr6415sun said:


> people spend $5-$10 a month for a cable card? Mine is only $2.50, while my TWC boxes were $12-$15 a month (+tax) just for one box. I save a ton by using tivo and minis instead.


Yeah - my Charter cable card is about $2...big money saver


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## randian

A big problem here has already been noted: there is no migration capability in a TiVo. Neither settings nor unwatched shows can be copied over. That's one of the reasons people hang onto their tivo forever. Switching to a new one is too painful. This new more disposable payment model exacerbates the problem.t


----------



## keenanSR

lessd said:


> The Hartford CT market is $1.00/card and the $2.50 CR on only the first card, so if you have no cable co cable TV equipment the first outlet has a free cable card + a $2.50cr, the 2nd cable card is $1.00.


Here, when I didn't have their DVR and just the one card they ended up paying me $1.00 each month.


----------



## Dan203

randian said:


> A big problem here has already been noted: there is no migration capability in a TiVo. Neither settings nor unwatched shows can be copied over. That's one of the reasons people hang onto their tivo forever. Switching to a new one is too painful. This new more disposable payment model exacerbates the problem.t


Shows can be copied, as long as they're not protected, but you have to queue them up one at a time which can be a bit of a PITA. You can also copy your OnePasses using online.tivo.com or kmttg.


----------



## Peter G

Actually the TiVo BOLT sounds great to me. 

I have been OTA since my first TiVo Premiere, when I decided to ditch Satellite. The Premiere was OK but had issues with the OTA tuners, plus only 2 tuners. When Roamio came out I was able to upgrade and transfer my service (A special $10/month antenna only promo from 2011 or 2012) to the new box and it cost me $150 I think. When the HDD failed I got a replacement for $50 which has been working well for 2 years.
Was starting to feel like I should have jumped on some of the recent lifetime specials on the Roamio, now I am glad I didn't. If I had life-timed the original Premiere it would not have paid off since I had that for 2 years at most. Now 2 years on Roamio at $10 and I am still less than a lifetime subscription. Makes it easier to consider the next upgrade. 

Advantages I see with BOLT include built-in MoCA, Built In Streaming, Larger HDD, and all the other features already discussed. I'll wait a couple of months to see feedback on this Forum about the Bolt, but I am likely to upgrade again. I already have several Minis (Bought them when the dropped the subscription for each one). These are on a MoCA network and will be compatible with BOLT. At $12.50 per month I don't have a problem with the service fee. And based on the life cycle of electronics it may pay again not to go with "all-in" pricing. 3 -4 years and either OTA is dead and all content is internet cloud based, eliminating the need for TiVo, or who knows? 

Also I like the warranty program. $50 gets a replacement if anything goes wrong. 

Kudos to TiVo for keeping it fresh.

Peter G


----------



## keenanSR

Jrr6415sun said:


> how do you get that credit? never heard of it. Do I have to ask for it?


I'm not sure if that $2.50 that's been mentioned is the same everywhere, but I found the below document, might be a place to start.

https://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights



> Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5).


I _think_ the above Rule is the right one, you'll have to do some research. I would start by just asking your provider.


----------



## randian

Dan203 said:


> Shows can be copied, as long as they're not protected, but you have to queue them up one at a time which can be a bit of a PITA. You can also copy your OnePasses using online.tivo.com or kmttg.


True but it's really a "so what?" That still screws people in markets where everything is copy protected, when it's bleeding obvious a migration is not an attempt to harm the copyright holder, and requiring third-party software is bs when it should be baked in. Besides I've found TiVos online offering to be unreliable and much slower than a local to local copy would be.


----------



## trip1eX

redbeard25 said:


> *The new pricing structure is designed to make you upgrade more often.* Think about it. If they keep this "service included" pricing model going, then it makes *much* more sense when the "Bolt 2" is released next year to purchase it instead of keeping your original Bolt. Why spend $900 to keep your Bolt running past the initial 12 months when you could get all-new hardware for $300-$400 next year. In that sense, Tivo wants you to treat them like a cellphone company. Keep the plan going, and everyone is investors are happy.





I don't think so. They aren't making money on the $300 Bolt with 1 yr service included. That pricing is just to get the customer in the door. Where they make money is in the subsequent years with the subscription.

There is no incentive to release hardware every year because of that.

They really only release new hardware to keep it up to date with cable dvrs and new technology etc.


----------



## Dan203

randian said:


> True but it's really a "so what?" That still screws people in markets where everything is copy protected, when it's bleeding obvious a migration is not an attempt to harm the copyright holder, and requiring third-party software is bs when it should be baked in. Besides I've found TiVos online offering to be unreliable and much slower than a local to local copy would be.


I agree there should be a built in migration feature. They've shown that they can legally move a protected show to another device with the iOS feature, so it shouldn't be hard to add the same capability to TiVo to TiVo transfers. And if they did it as sort of a wizard, like guided setup, it would make the whole process a lot easier on the user.


----------



## wmcbrine

Jrr6415sun said:


> people spend $5-$10 a month for a cable card?


Fios cards are $5 now. I dunno who's paying $10.


----------



## DrewTivo

Dan203 said:


> I agree there should be a built in migration feature. They've shown that they can legally move a protected show to another device with the iOS feature, so it shouldn't be hard to add the same capability to TiVo to TiVo transfers. And if they did it as sort of a wizard, like guided setup, it would make the whole process a lot easier on the user.


True. If Apple can make it so easy with complex computer software, it shouldn't be so hard for Tivo to do the same.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> I don't think so. They aren't making money on the $300 Bolt with 1 yr service included. That pricing is just to get the customer in the door. Where they make money is in the subsequent years with the subscription.


I'm betting they do. Previously the hardware was $150 + a one year commitment. This essentially combines those into a single fee. They wouldn't do it if they weren't at least breaking even.


----------



## krkaufman

Jrr6415sun said:


> how do you get that credit? never heard of it. Do I have to ask for it?


For Comcast, see this post.


----------



## filovirus

wmcbrine said:


> Fios cards are $5 now. I dunno who's paying $10.


On my bill it shows my first one is free, second one shows $1.50, but I think they are billing it as though they are both in a single TiVo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## redbeard25

Peter G said:


> Actually the TiVo BOLT sounds great to me.


No, Peter! This thread is just for whining and complaining Tivo owners!


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## keenanSR

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting they do. Previously the hardware was $150 + a one year commitment. This essentially combines those into a single fee. They wouldn't do it if they weren't at least breaking even.


I'm betting they do too as the only real major difference is the addition of 4K streaming and that wouldn't add another $100 to $150 to the total cost, not even close. They probably spent more on the weird box than the 4K capability.


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## keenanSR

krkaufman said:


> For Comcast, see this post.


Excellent post!


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## larrs

1. Could it be possible that the Bolt will be doing transcoding to HEVC on the fly? If that's the case, the 1TB model would yield the equivalent of more than 2TB if that was the case.

2. I am also wondering if their data is showing a dramatic shift from recorded shows to streaming options? if so, that could be why they do not see the need for 6 tuners or more storage on a go-forward basis. Look, I have been a hard core Tivo user since last century and I know we struggled last year and again this year to clear out all of the shows over this summer that were filling up our Roamio Pro when the TV season ended. In fact, I binged a few shows this weekend and still noticed the DVR is 50% full as of today. With Netflix, Amazon and Hulu on board, there always seems to be something we'd rather watch than many of the shows we are recording. Add in the fact that we now have a TON of UV movies on Vudu and I am sure it will continue to get worse.


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## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, one of the funny things to me about TiVo is that it seems to appeal to AV enthusiasts, folks who really love TV and are willing to seek out and invest in a superior alternative. But on the other hand, it only works with cable and, for people in certain areas, FiOS. I know FiOS has (or used to have) great HD picture quality but I've never thought cable's HD PQ was as good as DirecTV or Dish. *I know cable will vary from place to place* but based on what I've personally seen in various cities and systems, it typically falls well short of satellite. Comcast around here is definitely not as good as satellite.


From place to place, most definitely, and even with the same provider.

After installing a Roamio/Mini setup at my niece's place in suburban Chicago, this past week, I've been muttering curses under my breath at Comcast after seeing how many more HD channels they're getting as compared to what we receive in downstate Illinois -- for the exact same package and pricing.


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## David Bott

Great thread all with great questions! Please be sure to note the exclusive we have...

Community Quick Chat with TiVo's CMO Ira Bahr - Ask anything about TiVo! (Which includes about the Bolt.)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532368

So please be sure to ask a question as I hope to get the site in a TiVo Press Release to gain exposure for our community.


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## krkaufman

larrs said:


> 1. Could it be possible that the Bolt will be doing transcoding to HEVC on the fly? If that's the case, the 1TB model would yield the equivalent of more than 2TB if that was the case.


If I'm interpreting your premise correctly, that would have the Bolt storing the recorded/captured content in HEVC -- which may prove problematic for streaming that content back out to multiple Minis simultaneously.

I expect the Bolt will be capturing and storing content the same as the Roamio has been.


----------



## NashGuy

Peter G said:


> Actually the TiVo BOLT sounds great to me.
> 
> I have been OTA since my first TiVo Premiere, when I decided to ditch Satellite.


If you're an OTA guy (like me) and you're in no great rush, you may want to see if TiVo rolls out the OTA-only Bolt Aereo Edition (BAE) in a few months. Based on leaked images and FCC info, we know it exists and has a 500 GB hard drive. Given the lower pricing for the Roamio OTA versus the base cable/OTA Roamio, I would expect that the BAE will cost less. It's speculated that they held back on releasing the BAE because, while the Bolt has Stream functionality built-in, it can currently only stream recordings to devices within the same home network. Out-of-home streaming functionality is supposed to arrive for the Bolt next year, so perhaps that's when we'll see the BAE roll out. Or perhaps they're waiting until they nail down more OTT streaming providers, such as the revamped Hulu app or maybe even Sling TV, HBO Now, Showtime, etc. before introducing the BAE.


----------



## larrs

krkaufman said:


> If I'm interpreting your premise correctly, that would have the Bolt storing the recorded/captured content in HEVC -- which may prove problematic for streaming that content back out to multiple Minis simultaneously.
> 
> I expect the Bolt will be capturing and storing content the same as the Roamio has been.


Yep, never thought of that. That couldn't be the case unless an new Mini Bolt came on board.


----------



## redbeard25

...the release of the Bolt with "All in" pricing may actually *devalue* the value of previous generation "with lifetime" units. The end of MSD means that the older generation lifetime units only have value in that they eliminate the monthly fee. Since that's lower than before, the value of lifetime is also lower.


----------



## Jrr6415sun

keenanSR said:


> I'm betting they do too as the only real major difference is the addition of 4K streaming and that wouldn't add another $100 to $150 to the total cost, not even close. They probably spent more on the weird box than the 4K capability.


and the upgraded ram and processor..


----------



## DaveMN

I wonder if this new pricing model is related to their patent business model expiring soon:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/8/9284091/tivo-samsung-dvr-patent-lawsuit


----------



## Jrr6415sun

I think most people here are overreacting saying they are going to dump tivo and go to direct tv or that tivo is going to fail. 

The only real complaints are the lifetime costs and the 4 tuners. I think their subscription plan is great for new customers. 1 year of free service is a great idea and removes a huge barrier of entry for new customers resulting in a lot of new subscribers. This is also a decrease in subscription costs. 

4 tuners and lifetime cost is not great for exsiting customers but would we really have upgraded anyway if these problems were fixed for just a few new features and 4K? Tivo's main goal is to get new subscribers and a constant revenue stream and this is a great way to do it.

I'm sure there's a good chance that there will be 6 tuners and a lifetime sale eventually, but focusing on new customers for right now is fine with me. I don't have a 4K tv yet so i'm fine with my roamio for now.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting they do. Previously the hardware was $150 + a one year commitment. This essentially combines those into a single fee. They wouldn't do it if they weren't at least breaking even.


They would do it if they know they get x percentage of customers to subscribe beyond the 1st year to more than make up for a small loss up front.


----------



## Dan203

larrs said:


> 1. Could it be possible that the Bolt will be doing transcoding to HEVC on the fly? If that's the case, the 1TB model would yield the equivalent of more than 2TB if that was the case.


Doubt it. HEVC encoders are still really expensive. Plus realtime encoding, of any kind, adds an extra layer for failure.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> *Yes you have to.* Originally they allowed any esata drive on the S3 units but they found that some drives just weren't fast enough to work properly so with the Premiere they started requiring you to use a qualified drive, which was only the WD DVR expander. That continued with the Roamio. *And likely continued with the Bolt.*


It still nowhere (that I can see on their website) says "has to" use that eSATA HDD. That is just your speculation based on prior history with TiVo. As we can see, they're changing their philosophies and strategies with this new Bolt.

You contradict yourself saying


Dan203 said:


> Yes you *have to.*


 and then


Dan203 said:


> And *likely* continued with the Bolt.


----------



## tarheelblue32

redbeard25 said:


> ...the release of the Bolt with "All in" pricing may actually *devalue* the value of previous generation "with lifetime" units. The end of MSD means that the older generation lifetime units only have value in that they eliminate the monthly fee. Since that's lower than before, the value of lifetime is also lower.


The monthly service fee is still $14.99.


----------



## LightningBOLT

Dan203 said:


> I agree there should be a built in migration feature. They've shown that they can legally move a protected show to another device with the iOS feature, so it shouldn't be hard to add the same capability to TiVo to TiVo transfers. And if they did it as sort of a wizard, like guided setup, it would make the whole process a lot easier on the user.


If there is a migration feature then I can see some Tivo fans buying every year or two. I would.


----------



## LightningBOLT

Jrr6415sun said:


> I think most people here are overreacting saying they are going to dump tivo and go to direct tv or that tivo is going to fail.
> 
> The only real complaints are the lifetime costs and the 4 tuners. I think their subscription plan is great for new customers. 1 year of free service is a great idea and removes a huge barrier of entry for new customers resulting in a lot of new subscribers. This is also a decrease in subscription costs.
> 
> 4 tuners and lifetime cost is not great for exsiting customers but would we really have upgraded anyway if these problems were fixed for just a few new features and 4K? Tivo's main goal is to get new subscribers and a constant revenue stream and this is a great way to do it.
> 
> I'm sure there's a good chance that there will be 6 tuners and a lifetime sale eventually, but focusing on new customers for right now is fine with me. I don't have a 4K tv yet so i'm fine with my roamio for now.


Great post. If I could, I'd wait on upgrading to the Bolt but I'm in a bind because the TivoHD is on the fritz.


----------



## Dan203

HarperVision said:


> It still nowhere (that I can see on their website) says "has to" use that eSATA HDD. That is just your speculation based on prior history with TiVo. As we can see, they're changing their philosophies and strategies with this new Bolt.
> 
> You contradict yourself saying and then


I only said "likely" because I haven't personally tried it. I did try it on a Premiere back in the day and it did not work. You got some sort of message about it being an unqualified device.

But feel free to try it and let us know if it works. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


----------



## redbeard25

tarheelblue32 said:


> The monthly service fee is still $14.99.


Uh...

Well, you can see that I haven't paid a non-MSD monthly Tivo fee in a while.


----------



## bjarmon

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting the Netflix and Amazon apps will simply drop to the old SD versions when not connected to a 4K TV. They're not downscaling 4K to 1080p. That being said TiVo could have probably added component and simply blocked it while displaying 4K, like they do when there is an active HDCP connection now. So maybe the lack on component has nothing to do with 4K and just stems from the fact that most people don't need it any more, especially on their primary TV where the TiVo is likely to be.


I am not sure that companies are technically allowed to produce consumer devices that include analog inputs any longer. This article mostly refers to Blu-Ray players, but there is a snippet about cable boxes in there as well.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/goodbye-hd-component-video-hollywood-hastens-the-analog-sunset/index.htm

I don't see it in this article, but I believe that there was a 2015 cutoff for analog inputs/outputs on consumer devices. This is most likely the reason for not including anything except for HDMI


----------



## bjarmon

kbmb said:


> Love the back image, seemingly used in most reviews, which seems to have a missing screw above the HDMI port making the back panel look like it's falling off.
> 
> -Kevin


I believe what you are referring to is the locking HDMI support, and not a missing screw. I've typically only seen included in professional AV equipment.


----------



## Dan203

bjarmon said:


> I am not sure that companies are technically allowed to produce consumer devices that include analog inputs any longer. This article mostly refers to Blu-Ray players, but there is a snippet about cable boxes in there as well.
> 
> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/goodbye-hd-component-video-hollywood-hastens-the-analog-sunset/index.htm
> 
> I don't see it in this article, but I believe that there was a 2015 cutoff for analog inputs/outputs on consumer devices. This is most likely the reason for not including anything except for HDMI


I think the Bolt still has Composite output as part of the yellow AV jack. It just doesn't have component. So the analog hole isn't completely closed yet.

There was some sort of cutoff for cable. I think boxes produced in the last couple years even needed the ability to remotely disable the analog outputs. So the cable company could be shutting off the component outputs on deployed cable boxes soon. (which will likely be the end for Sling Box)


----------



## Jonathan_S

randian said:


> A big problem here has already been noted: there is no migration capability in a TiVo. Neither settings nor unwatched shows can be copied over. That's one of the reasons people hang onto their tivo forever. Switching to a new one is too painful. This new more disposable payment model exacerbates the problem.t


As noted some of this can be done, but it still takes manual intervention.

But I agree, if TiVo really wants people migrating every couple years you'd think an automated migration process would be a very high priority.

And it should handle everything:
* *Recordings* -- including doing a move & delete to migrate copy protected recordings.
* *Thumbs Data* -- so you don't have suggestions going haywire with the new TiVo.
* *Recording History* -- so the new TiVo doesn't stupidly record repeat airings of the last few weeks shows you already watched on your previous TiVo.
* *Season Passes* -- without scrambling their order; something TiVo's website is notorious for.
* *Wishlists* -- kmttg can apparently move autorecording ones; but TiVo should migrate all wishlists
* *Channels/Favorite Channels lists* -- why should I have to set this up again.
* *App settings* -- why should I have to reenter my credentials to Netflix, Amazon, etc, etc.
* *TiVo Settings* -- remember my default recording preferences, sound level, streaming providers, etc. unless there's a specific reason, like a new feature or a dropped feature, to change them.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> I only said "likely" because I haven't personally tried it. I did try it on a Premiere back in the day and it did not work. You got some sort of message about it being an unqualified device.
> 
> But feel free to try it and let us know if it works. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


I only asked the question in case someone somewhere read factual information as to whether you can use any eSATA HDD, or have to continue to only use the TiVo approved WD eSATA HDD.

I totally understand your thoughts and the fact that "it used to be that way", which is exactly why I'm asking the question now to see if that very thing has been changed with this new Bolt, so therefore I'm seeking factual information only, not speculation at this point before I pull the trigger on one. I have to do that soon because I'm still within the 30 Day Money Back Guarantee period for the refurb Roamio I just purchased.

Either way though, I certainly appreciate your amazing insight, knowledge and thoughts on ALL things TiVo, that's for sure!!!  :up:

To add to this, any idea if we are going to be able to upgrade the internal HDD yet? (Sorry I'm stuck at work and can't read all the posts and threads yet)


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I think the Bolt still has Composite output as part of the yellow AV jack. It just doesn't have component. So the analog hole isn't completely closed yet.
> 
> ...................


if it does the back doesn't list it. The back of the Bolt specifically shows "Audio L/R" under that port. While the Roamio shows "A/V" under the port.
And the Mini shows "component" under one port and "A/V" under another port.


----------



## BD1

Would like the opinions of some of you Tivo experts.

Last week I got back into the Tivo world (I had a Tivo about 10 years ago) and setup my family house with 2 Roamio Plus units and 5 Minis. Got everything setup and working pretty easily and am enjoying the networking and the overall Tivo experience. I got lifetime for each Roamio for $99 on top of the price of the box.

Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> I think the Bolt still has Composite output as part of the yellow AV jack. It just doesn't have component. So the analog hole isn't completely closed yet............


No, it only has stereo L/R Audio out 1/8" jack now.


----------



## dswallow

BD1 said:


> Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


Nope. Odds are you're much better off with the Roamio devices. As is your wallet. Unless you want to have two fewer tuners, get one 4K video output for each Bolt, and want to be ~$500 poorer for each unit as well.


----------



## MarcusInMD

BD1 said:


> Would like the opinions of some of you Tivo experts.
> 
> Last week I got back into the Tivo world (I had a Tivo about 10 years ago) and setup my family house with 2 Roamio Plus units and 5 Minis. Got everything setup and working pretty easily and am enjoying the networking and the overall Tivo experience. I got lifetime for each Roamio for $99 on top of the price of the box.
> 
> Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


I'm not a Tivo expert but based on what I have seen of the BOLT. I am glad I went with a refurb. Roamio. The bolt is a walking disaster out of the gate. You loose features, price is in the stratosphere and it's freakin UGLY!


----------



## tarheelblue32

BD1 said:


> Would like the opinions of some of you Tivo experts.
> 
> Last week I got back into the Tivo world (I had a Tivo about 10 years ago) and setup my family house with 2 Roamio Plus units and 5 Minis. Got everything setup and working pretty easily and am enjoying the networking and the overall Tivo experience. I got lifetime for each Roamio for $99 on top of the price of the box.
> 
> Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


Don't do it. You would lose a total of 4 tuners and hundreds of dollars from your wallet. As far as I am concerned, the Roamio Plus is superior to the Bolt.


----------



## krkaufman

MarcusInMD said:


> I am glad I went with a refurb. Roamio. The bolt is a walking disaster out of the gate. You loose features, ...


Aside from the Hulu app, what features are lost in choosing the single Bolt model currently available relative to the 4-tuner base Roamio model?


----------



## tarheelblue32

krkaufman said:


> Aside from the Hulu app, what features are lost in choosing the single Bolt model currently available relative to the 4-tuner base Roamio model?


The only thing I can think of is analog video output.


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> Aside from the Hulu app, what features are lost in choosing the single Bolt model currently available relative to the 4-tuner base Roamio model?


One of the reviews indicated that out of home streaming wasn't working yet.


----------



## HarperVision

tarheelblue32 said:


> The only thing I can think of is analog video output.


Yep, and why would you want that anyway? That's what an extra mini is for.


----------



## innocentfreak

Jrr6415sun said:


> well they want you to upgrade every 2-3 years, instead of every 6 years. That is why the lifetime cost is 5 years. If lifetime was less then most people would have it and they would have less of an incentive to upgrade.


I don't upgrade every 5 years though. I upgrade every new TiVo, well except this one. The reason I upgrade is because my TiVos held value and I could either sell or give them to family which lately has been the case.

At $599 for lifetime, I won't be doing either since I don't plan on buying. If my family members want new TiVos, they will need to buy their own now. I sent an email to my sister letter her know about the new boxes, but haven't heard back. She was counting on me upgrading to replace my 2 Premieres so she could use those.

Also as discussed TiVo makes money on the subscription and not the hardware so they don't want you to upgrade often. People like me who are opposed to subscription fees are now are stuck in a limbo since it also is over what I am willing to pay for TiVo.


----------



## caughey

BD1 said:


> Would like the opinions of some of you Tivo experts.
> 
> Last week I got back into the Tivo world (I had a Tivo about 10 years ago) and setup my family house with 2 Roamio Plus units and 5 Minis. Got everything setup and working pretty easily and am enjoying the networking and the overall Tivo experience. I got lifetime for each Roamio for $99 on top of the price of the box.
> 
> Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


Unless you absolutely must have 4K, I think Roamio is the right choice. Excellent timing.

(I'm not an expert, but I play one at work.)


----------



## krkaufman

BD1 said:


> Now I see they just announced this Bolt unit. I haven't really looked into all the details but should I consider returning the Roamio's for the Bolt units?


Yes, you should consider it, if only to feel comfortable with your decision. Unless you currently have one or more 4K TVs, I'm not sure the Bolt offers anything you won't soon have available on your Plus. Besides, you'd be losing 2 tuners per replaced Plus, the Hulu Plus app (at least temporarily), the ability to upgrade the HDD to 6TB, and you could pick up a 4K Roku, FireTV (??) using your savings from avoiding the current Bolt prices.

As a side question, were you able to buy TWO Plus units at the $500 10-year loyalty price? ($400 unit + $100 service)


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> One of the reviews indicated that out of home streaming wasn't working yet.


Which wouldn't be available on any 4-tuner Roamio model, either, so it's not a "lost" feature.


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> Which wouldn't be available on any 4-tuner Roamio model, either, so it's not a "lost" feature.


Well it would if you had a standalone Stream, but you're probably right.


----------



## HarperVision

Dan203 said:


> Well it would if you had a standalone Stream, but you're probably right.


Hey, if you happen to already have a stand alone Stream or a Roamio plus/pro on your network and then add a Bolt, will it allow out of home streaming using THAT Streaming device instead of the internal one in the Bolt?


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> Hey, if you happen to already have a stand alone Stream or a Roamio plus/pro on your network and then add a Bolt, will it allow out of home streaming using THAT Streaming device instead of the internal one in the Bolt?


That's my assumption; regardless, it's not a lost feature relative to a 4-tuner Roamio, since they lack built-in Stream.

Now, if my assumption is wrong, and there's some other issue w/ the Bolt that would prevent even a standalone Stream or Plus/Pro's built-in Stream from proxying the Bolt's content OOH, then it *could* be considered a lost feature -- until it's fixed.


----------



## jcthorne

Dan203 said:


> One of the reviews indicated that out of home streaming wasn't working yet.


Out of home streaming is not available on a base Roamio either. Without outside help.


----------



## jcthorne

HarperVision said:


> It still nowhere (that I can see on their website) says "has to" use that eSATA HDD. That is just your speculation based on prior history with TiVo. As we can see, they're changing their philosophies and strategies with this new Bolt.
> 
> You contradict yourself saying and then


This is covered in the Tivo Bolt FAQ at:

https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt#/bolt

Q: I can never get enough of a good thing. Will I be able to add an expandable drive to my TiVo BOLT?

A: Load 'em up, Hoss. You indeed can connect an external hard drive via the eSATA port on the back of TiVo BOLT. The 1 terabyte My Book AV DVR Expander from Western Digital can be purchased on tivo.com.


----------



## andyw715

Unfortunately for us the bolt will create the same CSR roulette many go through with sat radio, OnStar, dTV, etc come renewal time with the threat of discontinuing service unless a discount can be had on the renewal rate.


----------



## gigaguy

Where are people seeing Lifetime for $600 on the Bolt? I see Lifetime is removed from all Tivos on their site. Is this just for the Bolt initial release?
never seen this done before, just wondering if it's temporary to push the Bolt..


----------



## HarperVision

jcthorne said:


> This is covered in the Tivo Bolt FAQ at:
> 
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/bolt#/bolt
> 
> Q: I can never get enough of a good thing. Will I be able to add an expandable drive to my TiVo BOLT?
> 
> A: Load 'em up, Hoss. *You indeed can connect an external hard drive via the eSATA port on the back of TiVo BOLT*. The 1 terabyte My Book AV DVR Expander from Western Digital can be purchased on tivo.com.


You're referencing the exact thing that made me ask the question in the first place. Nowhere in that explanation does it say you *MUST* use the DVR Expander from TiVo. All they really do in that sentence is plug their own solution from a sales perspective, not saying it's your *ONLY* solution.

I wonder how it's worded on their FAQ for the other TiVos like Premieres and Roamios? That could make the vague wording have more merit one way or the other.


----------



## LightningBOLT

innocentfreak said:


> I don't upgrade every 5 years though. I upgrade every new TiVo, well except this one. The reason I upgrade is because my TiVos held value and I could either sell or give them to family which lately has been the case.
> 
> At $599 for lifetime, I won't be doing either since I don't plan on buying. If my family members want new TiVos, they will need to buy their own now. I sent an email to my sister letter her know about the new boxes, but haven't heard back. She was counting on me upgrading to replace my 2 Premieres so she could use those.
> 
> Also as discussed TiVo makes money on the subscription and not the hardware so they don't want you to upgrade often. People like me who are opposed to subscription fees are now are stuck in a limbo since it also is over what I am willing to pay for TiVo.


FYI- Tivo just offered me $99 on Roamio, ends 10/31: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532395


----------



## jcthorne

HarperVision said:


> You're referencing the exact thing that made me ask the question in the first place. Nowhere in that explanation does it say you *MUST* use the DVR Expander from TiVo. All they really do in that sentence is plug their own solution from a sales perspective, not saying it's your *ONLY* solution.
> 
> I wonder how it's worded on their FAQ for the other TiVos like Premieres and Roamios? That could make the vague wording have more merit one way or the other.


Suppose that is one way of looking at it. Would be a nice new feature. We were all very surprised at the eazy internal upgrade for Roamio. They could indeed go further in that direction. They really don't make money on storage. They are a software and service company.


----------



## jonw747

b_scott said:


> I've had Tivo since 2005 and I treat shows as disposable. I record, watch, delete. And always have.


otoh, we've owned a Roamio Plus for going on 2 months and it's already hit 33% filled or about 4X what a 512GB Bolt can hold. 

We record, watch, delete as well ... but can't always keep up.

Admittedly, we're still working through shows on our old DVRs while the new Roamio tries to catch up with what we haven't watched yet.

fwiw, if the new skip feature was really what was driving the cost of service up, they could have broken it out as an option. I think many of us would prefer a more rational pricing model where we don't have to spend $500 or $15/mon for a glorified guide service.


----------



## LightningBOLT

jonw747 said:


> otoh, we've owned a* Roamio Plus for going on 2 months and it's already hit 33% filled or about 4X what a 512GB Bolt can hold. *
> 
> We record, watch, delete as well ... but can't always keep up.
> 
> Admittedly, we're still working through shows on our old DVRs while the new Roamio tries to catch up with what we haven't watched yet.
> 
> fwiw, if the new skip feature was really what was driving the cost of service up, they could have broken it out as an option. I think many of us would prefer a more rational pricing model where we don't have to spend $500 or $15/mon for a glorified guide service.


I thought the Plus is 1TB, not 2TB.


----------



## Dan203

Yep Plus is 1TB, Pro is 3TB.


----------



## jonw747

Dan203 said:


> Yep Plus is 1TB, Pro is 3TB.


Not after adding a 6TB drive.


----------



## Dan203

jonw747 said:


> Not after adding a 6TB drive.


You failed to mention that. We're still waiting to find out if the Bolt can be upgraded. I'm sure they'll figure it out quickly though.


----------



## wmcbrine

gigaguy said:


> Where are people seeing Lifetime for $600 on the Bolt? I see Lifetime is removed from all Tivos on their site.


It hasn't gone anywhere. It's just been renamed "All In", and the price jacked up.


----------



## innocentfreak

I can't remember what thread had the debate about 4 or 5 years on the recoup of your All-in investment, but based off this thread it sounds like it is optionally either.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532414

It lists the All-in as an option within 30 days or at the end of one year.


----------



## apw2607

Dan203 said:


> I think we'll have to wait for one to get into customers hands before we know for sure.


Streaming apps dont work like that. They are smart enough to know what is the current display resolution and then use that resolution as the maximum streaming bit rate/resolution for adaptive streams.

You can try this out for yourself today. Set the box output to 720. Nextflix will then use its 720p stream as the max stream/resolution.

Its pointless to consume more bandwith than is needed. In additional downscaling algorithms are complex and require dedicated processing.


----------



## Connor

Not impressed with the bolt. White? WTF? And the shape, OMFG. 2.5" HD ugh. And the change in the subscription model. No more monthly? I sure hope the 6 tuner has a normal shape and comes in black with 3.5" drive. What are they thinking. I wouldn't have that thing in my entertainment center. I've had a TiVo since Series 1. Didn't care for the shape of the Roamio. But, I do have 2 Roamio Plus. Not really seeing the advantage. When I get a 4K HD TV it'll support Netflix and Amazon. Not sure the bolt is worth it.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Connor said:


> Not impressed with the bolt. White? WTF? And the shape, OMFG. 2.5" HD ugh. And the change in the subscription model. No more monthly?


Monthly service is still available for $14.99



Connor said:


> I sure hope the 6 tuner has a normal shape and comes in black with 3.5" drive.


It does. It is called the Roamio Pro


----------



## thopper46

That's basically what it is with some interface updates as mention in its site; recently bought the Roamio OTA with lifetime service for $299.99, same price they are currently asking for the Bolt with 1 years service, if you look at the Roamio, it was $49.99(Roamio OTA), with $249.99 life time service total price($299.99), same price as the Bolt except you'll now pay $149.99 each year for service, so I'll pass until they come up with a reasonable lifetime service price. Be glad to pay $99.99 for Bolt with $249.99 life time service. Roku 4 is suppose to come out tomorrow(10/01/2015), if price is right I'll probably go with Roku 4. I don't believe a lot of customers are going to be happy with the current yearly service price as is proposed..


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The only thing I *really* want are the profiles to be sticky. I don't want to select my name every time I sit down at the TV. I'd like the box to stay on my profile until it's actively switched. This works nicely for personalizing boxes. The kids bedroom Minis can stay on their stuff, the DVR can stay on my stuff, etc.
> 
> I like thinking about it but it's kind of theoretical. Heck knows if they'll ever even do it.


I think most people would prefer their profiles "sticky," as you say, but I could see some wanting to make sure a user authenticates when a device boots or wakes from standby, to keep the kids out of restricted content.


----------



## mjcxp

According to the TiVo support website the Bolt does not support MoCA bridging and requires a separate MoCA adapter. Sorta defeats the purpose of MoCA 2.0.


----------



## krkaufman

mjcxp said:


> According to the TiVo support website the Bolt does not support MoCA bridging and requires a separate MoCA adapter. Sorta defeats the purpose of MoCA 2.0.


Link?

I expect that's in error. The requirement for a separate MoCA adapter is MOST CERTAINLY wrong, though I expect both points are.

edit: The TiVo Bolt specs sheet, for one, explicity states "MoCA bridge 2.0" capability is built-in.


----------



## mjcxp

krkaufman said:


> Link?
> 
> I expect that's in error. The requirement for a separate MoCA adapter is MOST CERTAINLY wrong, though I expect both points are.


https://www.tivo.com/support/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network

I just ordered one and I am starting to regret it. Oh well I have 45 days to return it to Best Buy if it not worth the "upgrade" over the Pro.


----------



## krkaufman

mjcxp said:


> https://www.tivo.com/support/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network


Yeah, I'd definitely lean towards that support page being incorrectly updated.



mjcxp said:


> I just ordered one and I am starting to regret it. Oh well I have 45 days to return it to Best Buy if it not worth the "upgrade" over the Pro.


Personally, I don't view it as an upgrade over the Roamio Pro -- or Plus, for that matter. Some features are certainly improved, but the tuner count and storage limitation scope it as strictly an upgrade for the base Roamio model, though a substantial upgrade for that model.

Given the Bolt adds MoCA 2.0 bridging and built-in Stream, along with upgrades to Gigabit Ethernet and Wireless-AC, I don't see the eventual Bolt "Pro" model being as significant of an in-kind upgrade. Of these features, the Pro would only see a bump in power/speed, rather than new capabilities.


----------



## krkaufman

mjcxp said:


> https://www.tivo.com/support/how-to/how-connect-your-tivo-box-your-home-network
> 
> I just ordered one and I am starting to regret it. Oh well I have 45 days to return it to Best Buy if it not worth the "upgrade" over the Pro.


Hmmm... reviewing that page I'm starting to wonder if the BOLT isn't more like the TiVo Mini than the Roamio Plus/Pro, and that the BOLT may only be able to connect to a MoCA network, not create one. I think it would be a blunder if TiVo didn't give all BOLT models the ability to create the MoCA network, but it's not impossible.


----------



## HerronScott

BobCamp1 said:


> They didn't realize they would also have to rent a $5-$10/month CableCard, which negates most if not all of the savings. And repairs aren't free, either. And there is no VOD. And more potential for problems (CableCard and SDV). I think at best it's a wash for most people.
> 
> Nobody's going to spend $900 + $10/month on a single DVR. And that doesn't even count the Minis at $150 each.


As others have mentioned the 1st cablecard with Comcast is free and Comcast and Cox have VOD so your comments aren't universal across all cable providers.

Scott


----------



## aaronwt

apw2607 said:


> Streaming apps dont work like that. They are smart enough to know what is the current display resolution and then use that resolution as the maximum streaming bit rate/resolution for adaptive streams.
> 
> You can try this out for yourself today. Set the box output to 720. Nextflix will then use its 720p stream as the max stream/resolution.
> 
> Its pointless to consume more bandwith than is needed. In additional downscaling algorithms are complex and require dedicated processing.


Amazon still sends 1080P streams when set for only 720P output. And with Netflix, depending on the device, it will also still send 1080P streams when the device is set for only 720P output.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> And with Netflix, depending on the device, it will also still send 1080P streams when the device is set for only 720P output.


Not on TiVos or Rokus. Not sure about other devices.


----------



## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> Not on TiVos or Rokus. Not sure about other devices.


It does on my TiVo Minis with Amazon. Not sure about my Roamios. At some point Netflix used to send the 1080P streams too, but I see that is not the case any more.


----------



## jonw747

Dan203 said:


> You failed to mention that. We're still waiting to find out if the Bolt can be upgraded. I'm sure they'll figure it out quickly though.


No doubt, and we'll have to see what can be done with the eSATA port as well, but it sure would have been nice if they included a user upgradeable 3.5" HD slot in the product already rated for 6TB capacity and beyond.

One of the stranger things about the Bolt is that they've gone and introduced a 4K DVR without the ability to record 4K. Assuming we ever see a broadcast or cable standard for 4K, the Bolt is at best an interim product for people who own or expect to own a high-end 4K TV.


----------



## redbeard25

jonw747 said:


> a 4K DVR without the ability to record 4K.


Another reason why it's a "unified entertainment system *and* DVR." They're pretty explicit about referring to "TiVo Bolt _or_ TiVo DVR" in their marketing and support materials, the latter being all the legacy models.


----------



## RickStrobel

The other downside to having 4 tuners is that it limits you to how many Minis you can connect (or watch), right?


----------



## trip1eX

RickStrobel said:


> The other downside to having 4 tuners is that it limits you to how many Minis you can connect (or watch), right?


No. It just limits how many channels can be watched live/recorded simultaneously.


----------



## jonw747

RickStrobel said:


> The other downside to having 4 tuners is that it limits you to how many Minis you can connect (or watch), right?


I think it only limits how many live channels can be viewed or recorded at a time, but yeah, if the DVR is recording 3 programs ... then a 4 tuner system would only permit one other live program to be viewed in the entire household.


----------



## jonw747

redbeard25 said:


> Another reason why it's a "unified entertainment system *and* DVR." They're pretty explicit about referring to "TiVo Bolt _or_ TiVo DVR" in their marketing and support materials, the latter being all the legacy models.


Yes, I suspect the same, but it's probably not going to help the customers who don't realize that Bolt will (probably) never be able to record 4K even if a 4K cable or broadcast standard should come along.

The TiVo site doesn't exactly go out of it's way to spell this out. It says 4K is my future, and says it will stream 4K right out of the box, but what about that future? Maybe they'll be able to teach the Bolt some neat new tricks as new 4K services come on line, and maybe they won't. It's a big purchase with very limited capacity.

Fact is, anyone who's content with just streaming 4K video, will be able to do that by plopping down $100 on the new Fire Tv.

Is the Bolt really the future? Or is it a stop-gap product?


----------



## redbeard25

jonw747 said:


> Is the Bolt really the future? Or is it a stop-gap product?


The Bolt is the future inasmuch as the iPhone 6 was the future until last week. I do think this marks the beginning of a faster revision cycle for Tivo. More small upgrades (capacity bumps, feature tweaks), more expectation to upgrade more often.


----------



## BobCamp1

HerronScott said:


> As others have mentioned the 1st cablecard with Comcast is free and Comcast and Cox have VOD so your comments aren't universal across all cable providers.
> 
> Scott


Of course. But you're going to have to figure out your specific situation, and CableCard costs and possible missing features were not factored in for that example (which is now five pages ago).

Comcast is charging $7.45 for a CableCard in some areas. And if the Tivo is listed as the second device, you get charged an additional $10 outlet/digital access fee.

Even if your CableCard is free, the Tivo is $25/month for the first year and $12.50 a month after that. That's just a little less than a DVR rental that comes with a hassle-free replacement if it breaks. And it's people coming to your house to replace it for you the next day instead of shipping it back for $50 and being without service at all for a week or two. (Remember if the DVR goes down, the Minis are worthless and you have no TV at all even though you're still paying for the cable and Tivo service).


----------



## jonw747

redbeard25 said:


> The Bolt is the future inasmuch as the iPhone 6 was the future until last week. I do think this marks the beginning of a faster revision cycle for Tivo. More small upgrades (capacity bumps, feature tweaks), more expectation to upgrade more often.


If the cell phone market is the model, then TiVo has some catching up to do because for instance with my current phone I paid nothing down, I have the option to switch to a new phone if I wish (and re-start my lease), and when my lease is up, I can either turn the phone back in or pay the buy out and keep it.

Oh, and I can also get everything transferred from my old phone to my new phone.

Cell companies also are pretty liberal about crediting trade-ins as well.


----------



## trip1eX

redbeard25 said:


> I do think this marks the beginning of a faster revision cycle for Tivo. More small upgrades (capacity bumps, feature tweaks), more expectation to upgrade more often.


Doubt it. The Bolt is here because of 4k. I picked up a Best Buy ad while I waiting in line at the online order pickup counter and on the cover I saw a 4k tv. I turned the page and more 4k tvs. I turned again and still 4k tvs. All the tvs were 4k. This went on to pages 6-7.

That's why the Bolt is here.

Plus the Roamio Basic was Tivo's best selling model and was underpowered and lacked features compared to the Plus/Pro. It was ripe to be upgraded.

Tivo has always done small upgrades to their models. Introduce more storage and tuners. They do want to keep their product lineup current to attract new customers. They have to compete with the cable co dvrs.

But otherwise they'd like nothing more than for you to still be paying $15/month for your 5 yr old Premiere. That is pretty much pure profit for them.


----------



## jonw747

BobCamp1 said:


> Of course. But you're going to have to figure out your specific situation, and CableCard costs and possible missing features were not factored in for that example (which is now five pages ago).
> 
> Comcast is charging $7.45 for a CableCard in some areas. And if the Tivo is listed as the second device, you get charged an additional $10 outlet/digital access fee.
> 
> Even if your CableCard is free, the Tivo is $25/month for the first year and $12.50 a month after that. That's just a little less than a DVR rental that comes with a hassle-free replacement if it breaks. And it's people coming to your house to replace it for you the next day instead of shipping it back for $50 and being without service at all for a week or two. (Remember if the DVR goes down, the Minis are worthless and you have no TV at all even though you're still paying for the cable and Tivo service).


Too bad those people coming to your house the next day are going to take away your DVR and all your recordings with them.


----------



## b_scott

jonw747 said:


> Too bad those people coming to your house the next day are going to take away your DVR and all your recordings with them.


if your Tivo was broken then all your recordings would be gone in that case too. Not sure your point.


----------



## BobCamp1

jonw747 said:


> Too bad those people coming to your house the next day are going to take away your DVR and all your recordings with them.


If the DVR is broken, then it's broken. It's not powering up properly or the hard drive is shot. The recordings are already gone.

Besides, if you're a TWC customer, you can't pull most of those recordings off anyway.

Besides besides, most people don't care about losing their recordings. They only have a few on there and can probably use VOD to watch what they missed.


----------



## b_scott

trip1eX said:


> Doubt it. The Bolt is here because of 4k. I picked up a Best Buy ad while I waiting in line at the online order pickup counter and on the cover I saw a 4k tv. I turned the page and more 4k tvs. I turned again and still 4k tvs. All the tvs were 4k. This went on to pages 6-7.
> 
> That's why the Bolt is here.
> 
> Plus the Roamio Basic was Tivo's best selling model and was underpowered and lacked features compared to the Plus/Pro.
> 
> Tivo has always done small upgrades to their models. Introduce more storage and tuners. They do want to keep their product lineup current to attract new customers. They have to compete with the cable co dvrs.
> 
> But otherwise they'd like nothing more than for you to still be paying $15/month for your 5 yr old Premiere. That is pretty much pure profit for them.


yep to all this. I've had my Premiere and Premiere XL so about 5.5 years each, which would be about $1000 of service @ $15/month, each. I paid $600 and $900 respectively, so I'm already $1200 in the green and it'll just keep on being in the green ($299 + $399 for the machines, plus $2000 of service = $2700)

I think the reason for 4 tuners is it's 4K and with 500GB and 1000GB it's just not enough space to keep 4K video recording on 6 tuners constantly.


----------



## filovirus

BobCamp1 said:


> Of course. But you're going to have to figure out your specific situation, and CableCard costs and possible missing features were not factored in for that example (which is now five pages ago).
> 
> Comcast is charging $7.45 for a CableCard in some areas. And if the Tivo is listed as the second device, you get charged an additional $10 outlet/digital access fee.
> 
> Even if your CableCard is free, the Tivo is $25/month for the first year and $12.50 a month after that. That's just a little less than a DVR rental that comes with a hassle-free replacement if it breaks. And it's people coming to your house to replace it for you the next day instead of shipping it back for $50 and being without service at all for a week or two. (Remember if the DVR goes down, the Minis are worthless and you have no TV at all even though you're still paying for the cable and Tivo service).


Or, in my case, I've had no problems, power 5 outlets and saving 40-50 per month in Comcast outlet/hardware fees. I greatly value my TiVo experience over Comcast hardware as well.

If one of my Roamio Plus/Pro models goes down, and I cannot fix it, I have the other as a backup to power the minis while TiVo replaces under warranty. If out of warranty, I'll go to eBay and replace it with a used model or consider a new one if that option makes any sense. I am saving enough on fees that $150 per year and the option to upgrade hardware sooner may be an option over a $600 all in expense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## filovirus

b_scott said:


> I think the reason for 4 tuners is it's 4K and with 500GB and 1000GB it's just not enough space to keep 4K video recording on 6 tuners constantly.


I didn't think that 4K recording was an option and 4 tuners is a fall back to having OTA capability.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compuguy

krkaufman said:


> Aside from the Hulu app, what features are lost in choosing the single Bolt model currently available relative to the 4-tuner base Roamio model?


Wait, there's no hulu app on the bolt???


----------



## BobCamp1

filovirus said:


> Or, in my case, I've had no problems, power 5 outlets and saving 40-50 per month in Comcast outlet/hardware fees. I greatly value my TiVo experience over Comcast hardware as well.
> 
> If one of my Roamio Plus/Pro models goes down, and I cannot fix it, I have the other as a backup to power the minis while TiVo replaces under warranty. If out of warranty, I'll go to eBay and replace it with a used model or consider a new one if that option makes any sense. I am saving enough on fees that $150 per year and the option to upgrade hardware sooner may be an option over a $600 all in expense.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You own two DVRs? That's pretty rare in of itself. And you have the technical knowledge to know what to do when something goes wrong. Many people don't.

And in my brother's case, he had three Tivos die on him (not the hard drive). He rents a TWC receiver box because a Mini doesn't work in this one room, even though TWC says the cable to that room is fine. And Tivo doesn't make house calls. He pays more than he would with the TWC DVR, but he accepts that because the Tivo is a better DVR for him and he's technically savvy.

I can go back and forth on this forever, so I'll just say that most people will see a small savings, and there are pros and cons in getting a Tivo. It's not a slam dunk choice for most people.


----------



## krkaufman

RickStrobel said:


> The other downside to having 4 tuners is that it limits you to how many Minis you can connect (or watch), right?


That *is* a downside to fewer tuners, less tuners to avoid conflicts -- both recording and when trying to view live TV.


----------



## krkaufman

compuguy said:


> Wait, there's no hulu app on the bolt???


Not yet, there's not. It's supposedly in the works.

It's my understanding that the Bolt doesn't support Flash, so the current Flash-based Hulu app is incompatible. An HTML5-based replacement app is supposedly being worked on, and better arrive before they try upgrading our Roamios and earlier to the BOLT software release.


----------



## krkaufman

BobCamp1 said:


> And in my brother's case, ... He rents a TWC receiver box because a Mini doesn't work in this one room, even though TWC says the cable to that room is fine.


C'mon... help a brother out! (literally)


----------



## trip1eX

BobCamp1 said:


> You own two DVRs? That's pretty rare in of itself. And you have the technical knowledge to know what to do when something goes wrong. Many people don't.
> 
> And in my brother's case, he had three Tivos die on him (not the hard drive). He rents a TWC receiver box because a Mini doesn't work in this one room, even though TWC says the cable to that room is fine. And Tivo doesn't make house calls. He pays more than he would with the TWC DVR, but he accepts that because the Tivo is a better DVR for him and he's technically savvy.
> 
> I can go back and forth on this forever, so I'll just say that most people will see a small savings, and there are pros and cons in getting a Tivo. It's not a slam dunk choice for most people.


OF course. The cable dvr owns the dvr market. Tivo is a bit player now. IT's been this way for a long time. For many reasons, that have been beat to death many times over on these boards alone and which essentially come down to the cable (satellite) company having all the power and leverage in this market.

maybe 10 years ago Tivo was still a major player. But the market was much smaller then.

Tivo is coming back into the fold as a supplier of dvrs to small MSOs particularly overseas. And in that case, the techs install the Tivo. And if it breaks you go to your cable co to get your (replacement) Tivo. My MSO, a smaller MSO, advertises Tivos all the time.

What is kind of lame is I can't get on-demand on my Roamio Plus, but if I rent a Tivo from my cable co I can get On-demand. (I digress though.)


----------



## zerdian1

Despite all the DVRs that exist in millions of homes a TV Network study recently released says that only 15% of the viewing audience uses their DVRs to time skip.
85% watch their TV shows at their regularly scheduled time.
that is the reason why network TV and cable companies are no longer fighting the commercial skip function in the Dish Hopper and probably will not with the TiVo BOLT Commercial Skip which requires a manual button push for each group of commercials I am assuming that this is a compromise worked out with TiVo and Network TV and Cable companies.


----------



## trip1eX

zerdian1 said:


> Despite all the DVRs that exist in millions of homes a TV Network study recently released says that only 15% of the viewing audience uses their DVRs to time skip.
> 85% watch their TV shows at their regularly scheduled time.
> that is the reason why network TV and cable companies are no longer fighting the commercial skip function in the Dish Hopper and probably will not with the TiVo BOLT Commercial Skip which requires a manual button push for each group of commercials.


yeah and only recently ( if I remember correctly) did dvr rentals amongst cable/satellite subscribers hit 50%.


----------



## randian

zerdian1 said:


> 85% watch their TV shows at their regularly scheduled time.


That's bizarre. The only point of having a DVR in my opinion is to time shift. I watch 0% of my programming live.


----------



## jonw747

b_scott said:


> if your Tivo was broken then all your recordings would be gone in that case too. Not sure your point.


It depends what's broken, and on your willingness/ability to attempt a repair on your own or the availability of a repair shop willing to repair and not just replace the unit with a refurb.

For instance let's say the HDMI port goes and you can no longer watch anything. As one member found out, this was not even something Weaknees could repair; but with a TiVo there's still the option to transfer recordings to a replacement DVR or even to a PC.

Or let's say you're feeling ripped off by your cable provider and a competitor is making you a great offer to get your business. If that competitor also supports cablecard, you should be able to use your TiVo as-is and keep the recordings that are already on it.

Or let's say you cut the cord, or just can't afford service for a spell. You should still be able to watch your recordings on your TiVo even without TiVo service.

So, yeah, having to turn my DVR in with 100's of hours of unwatched recordings on it, is just not a good solution for me.


----------



## wmcbrine

jonw747 said:


> One of the stranger things about the Bolt is that they've gone and introduced a 4K DVR without the ability to record 4K.


There's no reason at all to think that it _can't_ record 4K, just because none is currently available to record. If I were designing it, I'd allow for h.265 video (any resolution) in transport streams over QAM -- only a minor tweak to the existing h.264 support. My bet is that it already does this, and is ready for a provider to turn on a 4K channel tomorrow.


----------



## trip1eX

jonw747 said:


> It depends what's broken, and on your willingness/ability to attempt a repair on your own or the availability of a repair shop willing to repair and not just replace the unit with a refurb.
> 
> For instance let's say the HDMI port goes and you can no longer watch anything. As one member found out, this was not even something Weaknees could repair; but with a TiVo there's still the option to transfer recordings to a replacement DVR or even to a PC.
> 
> Or let's say you're feeling ripped off by your cable provider and a competitor is making you a great offer to get your business. If that competitor also supports cablecard, you should be able to use your TiVo as-is and keep the recordings that are already on it.
> 
> Or let's say you cut the cord, or just can't afford service for a spell. You should still be able to watch your recordings on your TiVo even without TiVo service.
> 
> So, yeah, having to turn my DVR in with 100's of hours of unwatched recordings on it, is just not a good solution for me.


I could care less if I lose my recordings. IT's only tv. And pretty much everything is available via iTunes etc so I can always grab some essentials there with little exception. Plus if I had hundreds of hours of unwatched stuff on my dvr, I would never get to all of it anyway. I have movies and shows now that are on my Tivo for a rainy day, but most will likely be deleted without ever being watched.


----------



## jonw747

BobCamp1 said:


> If the DVR is broken, then it's broken. It's not powering up properly or the hard drive is shot. The recordings are already gone.


There are a lot of problems that can be fixed that aren't fixed because the cable guy who comes out to your house has been told to just swap the unit with a refurb and drive on. Technically, even some hard drive failures can be fixed if a) you're willing to learn what do do; or b) are willing to pay. TiVo may prevent some of those options these days, but it used to be possible to clone a failing hard drive to a new one (and I'm speaking from experience here).



BobCamp1 said:


> Besides, if you're a TWC customer, you can't pull most of those recordings off anyway.


TWC sucks, but do they also prevent you from transferring programs DVR to DVR?



BobCamp1 said:


> Besides besides, most people don't care about losing their recordings. They only have a few on there and can probably use VOD to watch what they missed.


It sucks to go to VOD or a network web site only to discover that the show you missed has already dropped out of circulation.


----------



## jonw747

wmcbrine said:


> There's no reason at all to think that it _can't_ record 4K, just because none is currently available to record. If I were designing it, I'd allow for h.265 video (any resolution) in transport streams over QAM -- only a minor tweak to the existing h.264 support. My bet is that it already does this, and is ready for a provider to turn on a 4K channel tomorrow.


When it comes to tech, it's far safer to assume the opposite.

It's not like they labelled it "4K recording ready". There'd have to at least be standards in place and something to test against to do that.

I agree there might be things they could do depending which direction the industry goes with 4K, but even if that's the case, they could decide for marketing reasons to save it for a new box.


----------



## krkaufman

jonw747 said:


> Too bad those people coming to your house the next day are going to take away your DVR and all your recordings with them.


Well, that's really dependent on whether it's a cloud DVR, right? ... and whether the previously saved recordings in the cloud would be tied to the provider account or the physical box?


----------



## krkaufman

wmcbrine said:


> There's no reason at all to think that it _can't_ record 4K, just because none is currently available to record. If I were designing it, I'd allow for h.265 video (any resolution) in transport streams over QAM -- only a minor tweak to the existing h.264 support. My bet is that it already does this, and is ready for a provider to turn on a 4K channel tomorrow.


I was offered this correction when I said I'd seen nothing to indicate the BOLT could record 4K:


> The following is from Tivo website on the bolt
> 
> "TiVo BOLT was built with an eye on the future. It'll deliver eye-popping, blow-your-socks-off Ultra High Definition programming as soon as it starts streaming, from content providers like Netflix, Amazon Prime Instant Video, and VUDU. The TiVo BOLT is ready and waiting on themand, of course, you'll need a 4K TV and a broadband Internet connection, and you may have to pay some fees to those third-party providers. *Oh, and when networks start adding 4K content, you'll be able to record those programs just like HD content.* Your eyeballs will thank you for thinking ahead and investing in TiVo BOLT."


The above blurb is from the BOLT's FAQ page, from the question asking, "I'm ready to feast my eyes on some awesome 4K content. How does TiVo BOLT help me do that?"


----------



## b_scott

jonw747 said:


> So, yeah, having to turn my DVR in with 100's of hours of unwatched recordings on it, is just not a good solution for me.


If I ever get 100's of hours behind on TV I might as well just give up. LOL. I can't understand having that much TV recorded. You'll never catch up, and then eventually you'll die.  Maybe it's time to cull out some shows.

My Tivo is always emptied of everything expect maybe the previous 7 days, unless I go on vacation.


----------



## 1larryw

sangs said:


> And there's nothing wrong with that, considering John or Jane Q. Public make up the large majority of the viewing audience. (And it would seem to me that TiVo needs them instead of just the hardcores?) Either way, they're saving money and no longer being stuck with a "crappy DVR" from their cable co.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. TiVo needs new blood to grow. It does make me think that TiVo no longer values us early adopters and would love to do anything they could to get rid of the lifetime service genie they let out of the bottle. Remember the backlash after they got rid of the lifetime service for (i believe it was...) the S3 launch? Which group was the loudest? The hardcore and early adopters...the group who has kept them afloat and continues to be a loyal group every hardware release.


----------



## 1larryw

jcthorne said:


> I do not see much take rate on the all in plan at $600. I have always purchased lifetime on all my tivos. But not this time. For now anyway.


I think that is what they were going for. Offer the all in price at a significantly raised rate to appease those who still want the option, but turn new users (and existing ones who want to gamble that the new units will last long enough to make it viable for the user) into monthly/annual subscription users for more consistent revenue.


----------



## zerdian1

b_scott said:


> If I ever get 100's of hours behind on TV I might as well just give up. LOL. I can't understand having that much TV recorded. You'll never catch up, and then eventually you'll die.  Maybe it's time to cull out some shows.
> 
> My Tivo is always emptied of everything expect maybe the previous 7 days, unless I go on vacation.


I run my 1.5TB TiVo Roamio Basic DAILY NEWS on a 1 day cycle where it only keeps the last recording.
I do this for all the daily news shows, the morning shows, the evening news, the nighttime comedy talk shows, and the Sunday morning talks shows and several CNN news shows throughout the day.

I run my 12TB Roamio PRO where I keep all copies of the current and classic shows I'M INTERESTED IN.

My wife runs the 4TB Roamio PRO mostly for her Brazilian TeleNovelas and the local network Reality shows and travel and handyman shows.


----------



## redbeard25

krkaufman said:


> Oh, and when networks start adding 4K content, you'll be able to record those programs just like HD content.


Good find.

Of course, with the 500GB Bolt that's what... 14 hours?


----------



## jonw747

krkaufman said:


> I was offered this correction when I said I'd seen nothing to indicate the BOLT could record 4K:
> 
> The above blurb is from the BOLT's FAQ page, from the question asking, "I'm ready to feast my eyes on some awesome 4K content. How does TiVo BOLT help me do that?"


Nice find! Personally, I still wouldn't bank on it, let alone buy a DVR with such a small hard drive with the intent to record 4K.


----------



## b_scott

zerdian1 said:


> I run my 1.5TB TiVo Roamio Basic DAILY NEWS on a 1 day cycle where it only keeps the last recording.
> I do this for all the daily news shows, the morning shows, the evening news, the nighttime comedy talk shows, and the Sunday morning talks shows and several CNN news shows throughout the day.
> 
> I run my 12TB Roamio PRO where I keep all copies of the current and classic shows I'M INTERESTED IN.
> 
> My wife runs the 4TB Roamio PRO mostly for her Brazilian TeleNovelas and the local network Reality shows and travel and handyman shows.


Wow. I don't know what to say. That seems........ crazy.


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

I just got email from Best Buy that my bolt has shipped?? I paid the 15.00 for 1 day delivery. I bet I still don't see it till Wednesday


----------



## mjcxp

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I just got email from Best Buy that my bolt has shipped?? I paid the 15.00 for 1 day delivery. I bet I still don't see it till Wednesday


I ordered mine earlier today and it just shipped. It was showing delivery for Monday before placing the order. My tracking number isn't active yet.


----------



## BobCamp1

krkaufman said:


> C'mon... help a brother out! (literally)


I brought a portable spectrum analyzer and signal generator to his house. There's nothing I can see that's wrong with the line. My guess is that inside the wall a staple has gone through the cable and is shorting the shield to the conductor. The Minis must be sensitive to that while the TWC boxes can handle it.


----------



## HarperVision

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> I just got email from Best Buy that my bolt has shipped?? I paid the 15.00 for 1 day delivery. I bet I still don't see it till Wednesday





mjcxp said:


> I ordered mine earlier today and it just shipped. It was showing delivery for Monday before placing the order. My tracking number isn't active yet.


Mine shows "Preparing for shipment". Maybe BB jumped the gun a bit and forgot they're supposed to wait until 10/4?


----------



## BobCamp1

jonw747 said:


> Technically, even some hard drive failures can be fixed if a) you're willing to learn what do do; or b) are willing to pay. TiVo may prevent some of those options these days, but it used to be possible to clone a failing hard drive to a new one (and I'm speaking from experience here).


a) I think you have forgotten how much of a geek you are. Most users don't know what a hard drive is or what it does, they've never seen the inside of a PC, they think Linux is a type of animal, they think ISO means "in search of", etc. I'd bet 99% of people wouldn't know the first thing about how to fix a failing Tivo hard drive. Even people who are semi-geeks would have no clue that repairing a Tivo without sending it in is even possible.

b) You've just proven my point. You have to pay, and it isn't cheap.

FYI, TWC copy protects every single channel except the network channels as "copy once". So you can't transfer shows. But even that requires some geek-level knowledge.


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

HarperVision said:


> Mine shows "Preparing for shipment". Maybe BB jumped the gun a bit and forgot they're supposed to wait until 10/4?


Don't think it matters I won't get my CC or TA till Tuesday at earliest.


----------



## HarperVision

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Don't think it matters I won't get my CC or TA till Tuesday at earliest.


Hook it up with an antenna and activate it with TiVo so you can at least play with it and report back to us peeps on all the new goodies (and baddies of course!)


----------



## krkaufman

redbeard25 said:


> Good find.





jonw747 said:


> Nice find!


I'll pass that along to wazzupg, who shined the light on my ignernce.


----------



## krkaufman

BobCamp1 said:


> I brought a portable spectrum analyzer and signal generator to his house. There's nothing I can see that's wrong with the line. My guess is that inside the wall a staple has gone through the cable and is shorting the shield to the conductor. The Minis must be sensitive to that while the TWC boxes can handle it.


I assume you did the whole splitter and amplifier review... ???


----------



## Dan203

Dan203 said:


> Here is my official guess...
> 
> Box 1) Bolt - Aereo Edition. 4 tuners, OTA only
> Box 2) Bolt - 6 tuners, cable only
> 
> Both boxes will have a cheaper plastic case, external power brick, MoCa, gigabit Ethernet, streaming, and remote finder.
> 
> There maybe be variations of one, or both, boxes with HDD sizes, but those will be the only two base platforms. There is really no need for a OTA/Cable combo unit. TiVo did that originally with the Roamio because they didn't think there was a big enough market for an OTA only unit. They have since discovered that is not the case. And since the only reason the base unit is limited to 4 tuners is because of the OTA components there is no reason to have a 4 tuner cable unit.


I was pretty close. The part about them all being cheap plastic, having an external power brick, gigabit, moca, streaming and remote finder was all correct. The part about it being a 6 tuner cable only unit was completely wrong though.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Here is my official guess...
> 
> Box 1) Bolt - Aereo Edition. 4 tuners, OTA only
> Box 2) Bolt - 6 tuners, cable only
> ...
> There is really no need for a OTA/Cable combo unit.


I think you underestimated the value of the base unit offering both CableCARD and OTA, as well, as it removes a barrier for those who may find themselves straddling the fence between cable and OTA.

The eventual Aereo and "Pro" units will be for those fully committed to the respective broadcast mechanisms.


----------



## jonw747

b_scott said:


> Wow. I don't know what to say. That seems........ crazy.


Crazy is the wrong word here ...

TiVo's are meant to record all the time, and if you don't find them something to record, they'll go and find something to record on their own.

If you're happy using a fraction of their capability, that's simply your choice, but TiVo changed the mindset of most people who've used it very quickly.

Most? Many? Of us don't care what channel a TV show is on, or when it's on. We turn on the TV when we want to watch TV and go look in our recording list and pick something we feel like watching.

If we even think we might want to watch something, we click a button and get it recording, and figure out whether we want to bother with it later.

If you never come close to filling up your recording list, it's simply because you have more hours to watch TV than you have hours of TV you *might* want to watch.

Clearly that balance can shift radically from one family to the next.

fwiw, we currently have 96 entries in our One Pass manager, albeit some of those are streaming only. I doubt that's close to the record.


----------



## Dan203

I setup news shows like you, with KAM 1, but if I don't watch a single episode over the course of a few weeks/months then the 1P gets canceled. I like to have some filler shows available to listen too when I'm going to bed, but I don't want a bunch of stuff I'm never going to watch clogging up the My Shows list.


----------



## gigaguy

I do that too, also my news channel CNN, I set daily recordings on that channel so the station is tuned and buffering when it is not recording.
I wish Tivo would increase the buffer time. My Sony DHGs had 30-60-90 min buffer options...and the ability to set markers was great too (and even title them). ah, I used the Sonys for a long time..


----------



## krkaufman

jonw747 said:


> fwiw, we currently have 96 entries in our One Pass manager, albeit some of those are streaming only. I doubt that's close to the record.


We're approaching 200 (6-tuner Pro, 5+ viewers), but a good chunk of those, same as you, are streaming only. And still far short of any record, I expect.


----------



## krkaufman

Per an exchange w/ a TiVo typist manning their Facebook page, the BOLT lacks the ability to create a MoCA network at product launch.

More here. (And starting here.)

Per the Facebook exchange, TiVo may offer a *free MoCA adapter* for anyone expecting this capability before TiVo enables it in the BOLT.


----------



## Sixto

Thought I also saw somewhere that the Bolt only supports 2 streams. With the reduction to 4 tuners, and the limit on streams, I wonder if the issue is the hard drive performance, maybe not as robust as the Roamio WD harddrives? Really tough to have an environment with Mini's and only have a 4 tuner DVR.

I have one Pro for me, one Pro for the Family, and one Plus to serve Mini's. It's worked well, thus 6 tuners for both me and the family, and 6 tuners for the Mini's but only have 4 Mini's.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Sixto said:


> Thought I also saw somewhere that the Bolt only supports 2 streams. With the reduction to 4 tuners, and the limit on streams, I wonder if the issue is the hard drive, maybe not as robust as the Roamio WD harddrives. Really tough to have an environment with Mini's and only a 4 tuner DVR.


The Minis will be fine. The 2 stream limit is for transcoding (portable devices).

It was a CPU choice. The transcoding is integrated directly into the CPU itself now, and the particular chip they went with has a 2 stream (or one 4K stream) limit.


----------



## HarperVision

Sixto said:


> *Thought I also saw somewhere that the Bolt only supports 2 streams. *With the reduction to 4 tuners, and the limit on streams, I wonder if the issue is the hard drive performance, maybe not as robust as the Roamio WD harddrives? Really tough to have an environment with Mini's and only have a 4 tuner DVR.
> 
> I have one Pro for me, one Pro for the Family, and one Plus to serve Mini's. It's worked well, thus 6 tuners for both me and the family, and 6 tuners for the Mini's but only have 4 Mini's.


I think they mean transcoded streams, like those that get spit out by the Stream device built in or separate.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> I was pretty close. The part about them all being cheap plastic, having an external power brick, gigabit, moca, streaming and remote finder was all correct. The part about it being a 6 tuner cable only unit was completely wrong though.


Wel they did release a new Tivo. You had that part right.


----------



## jonw747

BobCamp1 said:


> a) I think you have forgotten how much of a geek you are. Most users don't know what a hard drive is or what it does, they've never seen the inside of a PC, they think Linux is a type of animal, they think ISO means "in search of", etc. I'd bet 99% of people wouldn't know the first thing about how to fix a failing Tivo hard drive. Even people who are semi-geeks would have no clue that repairing a Tivo without sending it in is even possible.
> 
> b) You've just proven my point. You have to pay, and it isn't cheap.
> 
> FYI, TWC copy protects every single channel except the network channels as "copy once". So you can't transfer shows. But even that requires some geek-level knowledge.


My experience is that people that make it to forums like this are interested enough in the product at a DIY/Hobbiest level and curious enough that they will follow some instructions and guides to get something done if they really want to get it done.

And that includes plugging a hard drive in to a PC, preparing a Linux boot disk, booting to it, and running some commands to try to recover a disk when given a step by step guide and/or videos showing how to do it.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember this, but back in the day, people used to assemble their own Heathkit electronic projects for fun and to save some $$$ and that's with no actual training in engineering let alone electronics. You could build radios, televisions, stereos, etc.

Removing some security torx screws, and plugging stuff in to connectors and mashing some buttons is pretty easy ... at least by comparison.

Not that I'd waste a minute of time doing any of that if manufacturers didn't treat personal electronic devices like throw-away items, and actually valued the stuff we stored on them before they went kaput.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> Wel they did release a new Tivo. You had that part right.


Hey I had all the other bits right, just not the tuners or the OTA/Cable combo part. To me it seems less important for an either/or box, but apparently TiVo put a lot more value in that then I thought.

I'm still a little shocked there isn't at least a replacement for the Roamio Plus/Pro units.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> I'm still a little shocked there isn't at least a replacement for the Roamio Plus/Pro units.


I was surprised, too, until seeing how they barely got the BOLT we're seeing out the door.


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> I was surprised, too, until seeing how they barely got the BOLT we're seeing out the door.


Yeah that's a little surprising too.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Hey I had all the other bits right, just not the tuners or the OTA/Cable combo part. To me it seems less important for an either/or box, but apparently TiVo put a lot more value in that then I thought.
> 
> I'm still a little shocked there isn't at least a replacement for the Roamio Plus/Pro units.


Yeah. I have to believe that we'll see a new 6 (or 8?) cable tuner high capacity UHD streaming TiVo in 2016, whether it has the Bolt name and form factor or not. They couldn't pull off a full refresh right now, so Series 6 is rolling out piecemeal. Next up will be the Bolt Aereo Edition.


----------



## jonw747

krkaufman said:


> I was surprised, too, until seeing how they barely got the BOLT we're seeing out the door.


It's actually pretty amazing considering they reportedly gutted their development staff after releasing the Roamio.


----------



## 1larryw

LightningBOLT said:


> FYI- Tivo just offered me $99 on Roamio, ends 10/31: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532395


Just got off the phone with TiVo customer service. I was told this offer ended 9/30/15. I also was speaking to the CSR about the all in one price and he told me that the CSR's have been instructed not to mention the all in one option to callers because they (TiVo) know it's not cost effective to push the AIO plan for the caller.


----------



## NashGuy

1larryw said:


> Just got off the phone with TiVo customer service. I was told this offer ended 9/30/15. I also was speaking to the CSR about the all in one price and he told me that the CSR's have been instructed not to mention the all in one option to callers because they (TiVo) know it's not cost effective to push the AIO plan for the caller.


I'm actually a little surprised that TiVo CSRs can even offer the All-In Plan upon request on units they sell, given that it's not available for units sold through TiVo.com. You know, rather than go through all this "you-can-get-All-In-there-but-not-here-unless-you-ask" dance, why doesn't TiVo just completely do away with lifetime service if it's truly financially untenable for them?


----------



## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> I'm actually a little surprised that TiVo CSRs can even offer the All-In Plan upon request on units they sell, given that it's not available for units sold through TiVo.com. You know, rather than go through all this "you-can-get-All-In-there-but-not-here-unless-you-ask" dance, why doesn't TiVo just completely do away with lifetime service if it's truly financially untenable for them?


Because the last time they completely did away with offering lifetime servce, they got a lot of complaints. This time they are just trying to kill it by making it financially stupid. It's probably a smarter strategy actually. Lifetime has gone from being almost a no-brainer to being a very risky investment that may never pay off.


----------



## NashGuy

tarheelblue32 said:


> Because the last time they completely did away with offering lifetime servce, they got a lot of complaints. This time they are just trying to kill it by making it financially stupid. It's probably a smarter strategy actually. Lifetime has gone from being almost a no-brainer to being a very risky investment that may never pay off.


Yeah, I initially thought the same thing, but I think I'd just prefer dealing with a company that takes a clear-cut approach rather than the way TiVo tends to treat customers when it comes to pricing, hidden deals, "CSR roulette", etc. Yes, they would get complaints if they did away with lifetime service but I guarantee you they're also getting complaints now for doing away with their multi-service discount (which I've read they've done away with, correct me if I'm wrong). In the end, I tend to think clear, consistent pricing policies are a better approach, but that's just me.


----------



## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> Yes, they would get complaints if they did away with lifetime service but I guarantee you they're also getting complaints now for doing away with their multi-service discount (which I've read they've done away with, correct me if I'm wrong).


I think as long as you keep your current MSD subscriptions active, they won't take the discount away from you. MSD is just not longer available for new activations.


----------



## Jed1

tarheelblue32 said:


> Because the last time they completely did away with offering lifetime servce, they got a lot of complaints. This time they are just trying to kill it by making it financially stupid. It's probably a smarter strategy actually. Lifetime has gone from being almost a no-brainer to being a very risky investment that may never pay off.


Actually going All In may not be that bad of an idea. There is no guarantee the prices for monthly and yearly will stay the same year to year. TiVo can raise the price for service every year if they want to. Those units that have All In pricing will not face yearly price hikes for the service.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Jed1 said:


> Actually going All In may not be that bad of an idea. There is no guarantee the prices for monthly and yearly will stay the same year to year. TiVo can raise the price for service every year if they want to. Those units that have All In pricing will not face yearly price hikes for the service.


I honestly don't think there is much of a risk that TiVo can raise service prices much past $15/month or $150/year. Even those prices are too much for a lot of people to swallow.

Right now we are at a 5-year payoff for the "all in" lifetime service. 5 years is a very long time to wait to get back to break even, and that isn't even factoring in time value of money. The risk that something will go wrong with a Bolt over the course of 5 years is not insignificant. Not to mention that in 3 or 4 years TiVo may come out with an even better product. If you are on monthly or yearly service, you can just cancel service and upgrade to the next gen TiVo (or TiVo alternative). Yes, there is some potential resale value in a lifetime unit, but exactly how much that will be 4 or 5 years from now is uncertain and another potential risk.


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Don't think it matters I won't get my CC or TA till Tuesday at earliest.


Now showing handed off to carrier in Louisville Ky.


----------



## HarperVision

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> Now showing handed off to carrier in Louisville Ky.


When did you order yours? I'm wondering why mine doesn't even show as shipped yet? I ordered mine very early on the first day of release.


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

On wed night


----------



## HarperVision

TIVO_GUY_HERE said:


> On wed night


Hmmmmmm, thanks!


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Hey I had all the other bits right, just not the tuners or the OTA/Cable combo part. To me it seems less important for an either/or box, but apparently TiVo put a lot more value in that then I thought.
> 
> I'm still a little shocked there isn't at least a replacement for the Roamio Plus/Pro units.


BUt the predictions you got right were not worth many points on the prediction test.


----------



## lessd

tarheelblue32 said:


> I honestly don't think there is much of a risk that TiVo can raise service prices much past $15/month or $150/year. Even those prices are too much for a lot of people to swallow.
> 
> Right now we are at a 5-year payoff for the "all in" lifetime service. 5 years is a very long time to wait to get back to break even, and that isn't even factoring in time value of money. The risk that something will go wrong with a Bolt over the course of 5 years is not insignificant. Not to mention that in 3 or 4 years TiVo may come out with an even better product. If you are on monthly or yearly service, you can just cancel service and upgrade to the next gen TiVo (or TiVo alternative). Yes, there is some potential resale value in a lifetime unit, but exactly how much that will be 4 or 5 years from now is uncertain and another potential risk.


Your not taking the E-Bay value of a *All In *Bolt or Roamio. Two months ago I sold a Roamio Plus with PLS for $575 on E-Bay, yes my net was about $485 after shipping and E-Bay cost, but not that bad on a two year old electronic product. With *All in *now costing $600 I expect the resale price of Lifetime products (Series 4 and newer) will go up.


----------



## Kremlar

> Actually going All In may not be that bad of an idea. There is no guarantee the prices for monthly and yearly will stay the same year to year. TiVo can raise the price for service every year if they want to. Those units that have All In pricing will not face yearly price hikes for the service.


TiVo is probably more likely to reduce the lifetime price via some kind of special than they are likely to increase the yearly price. I certainly wouldn't get a lifetime until the free year is up, and then not at $600.



> Your not taking the E-Bay value of a All In Bolt or Roamio. Two months ago I sold a Roamio Plus with PLS for $575 on E-Bay, yes my net was about $485 after shipping and E-Bay cost, but not that bad on a two year old electronic product. With All in now costing $600 I expect the resale price of Lifetime products (Series 4 and newer) will go up.


Perhaps for the short term, if people are willing to pay. But those prices will drop like a rock once Cable Cards start disappearing. How much life do they have left? 5 years?


----------



## innocentfreak

krkaufman said:


> We're approaching 200 (6-tuner Pro, 5+ viewers), but a good chunk of those, same as you, are streaming only. And still far short of any record, I expect.


I think if there were a limit on season passes, I would have hit it. One of my XLs is more just a backup these days and I rarely clean out the OnePasses unless I stumble across one that can be canceled.


----------



## krkaufman

innocentfreak said:


> I think if there were a limit on season passes, I would have hit it. One of my XLs is more just a backup these days and I rarely clean out the OnePasses unless I stumble across one that can be canceled.


Glad there's NOT a limit (or is there?). I recall being stunned when helping my brother setup his DirecTV DVR (non-TiVo) many moons ago and quickly hit either a 30- or 50- show maximum for their season pass equivalent.


----------



## aaronwt

I had around 300 Season passes at one point. I think I'm down to around 250 right now on my main TiVo.


----------



## slice1900

Dan203 said:


> Doubt it. HEVC encoders are still really expensive. Plus realtime encoding, of any kind, adds an extra layer for failure.


I don't know that they're that expensive. The iPhone 6 had realtime HEVC encoding built in last year, used for FaceTime. Granted Apple added that itself to their SoC rather than buying it from someone else, but it can't be that costly if they can simply add a block to an SoC. Not sure if the 6S has expanded that for other stuff - probably not, since having your videos recorded in HEVC would be a bit of a problem if you try to play them on other devices, since many cannot decode HEVC.

The problem with HEVC is that realtime encoders are not very efficient. Even the headend ones broadcasters use offer very little advantage of MPEG4, on the order of 30% or so. They talk about HEVC needing only half the bit rate compared to MPEG4, but that's long term when the encoders have matured. That's years away.


----------



## BobCamp1

aaronwt said:


> I had around 300 Season passes at one point. I think I'm down to around 250 right now on my main TiVo.


I have 9 Season Passes on my Tivo and around 20 on my FIOS DVR. I never run out of room on the 500 GB drive. There's simply no way I could watch more TV than that. Having said that, having more than two tuners is very helpful now that some of my shows are on at the same time. I'm the person the Bolt was designed for.


----------



## aaronwt

BobCamp1 said:


> I have 9 Season Passes on my Tivo and around 20 on my FIOS DVR. I never run out of room on the 500 GB drive. There's simply no way I could watch more TV than that. Having said that, having more than two tuners is very helpful now that some of my shows are on at the same time. I'm the person the Bolt was designed for.


I certainly don't watch all the content. Maybe 15% to 20% at most. And that is just my main TiVo. I have dozens of other One Passes on my OTA TiVos. I have many One passes that are news programs. So I pretty much record 20 hours or so of programs a day on both CNN and Aljazeera. And more news from all the local channels and some more cable channels. I have them set to keep only two episodes so I always have the up to date programs when I decide to watch something.

It's easier to just setup One Passes to record a bunch of stuff. Since I have no idea when or what I will be in the mood to watch. That way I have a wide variety of content to choose from when I do sit down to watch TV. i don't want to waste time watching Live TV for anything if I can avoid it.


----------



## Dan203

slice1900 said:


> I don't know that they're that expensive. The iPhone 6 had realtime HEVC encoding built in last year, used for FaceTime. Granted Apple added that itself to their SoC rather than buying it from someone else, but it can't be that costly if they can simply add a block to an SoC. Not sure if the 6S has expanded that for other stuff - probably not, since having your videos recorded in HEVC would be a bit of a problem if you try to play them on other devices, since many cannot decode HEVC.
> 
> The problem with HEVC is that realtime encoders are not very efficient. Even the headend ones broadcasters use offer very little advantage of MPEG4, on the order of 30% or so. They talk about HEVC needing only half the bit rate compared to MPEG4, but that's long term when the encoders have matured. That's years away.


I should have clarified that 4K HEVC encoders are still really expensive. For lower resolution they're easier and cheaper to produce. There is a reason the iPhone 6s doesn't use HEVC for it's 4K video. But even so the second point still stands. It adds an extra layer of failure, and lag, to the whole process. Plus to do that on a 4 tuner TiVo would require a chip capable of encoding 4 streams simultaneously, which I'm not sure even exists. I think the chip they're using for the Bolt can only do two H.264 streams simultaneously, so they couldn't even compress MPEG-2 to H.264 using the current hardware.


----------



## Welshdog

I have some Bolt questions:

1) Where does the CableCard go? I don't see a slot on the back.

2) Anyone know yet if it still needs a tuning adapter when on Time Warner Cable with SDV?

3) I don't see anything about the $600 All-in service option on their website. Is this something that comes later?


----------



## HarperVision

Welshdog said:


> I have some Bolt questions: 1) Where does the CableCard go? I don't see a slot on the back. 2) Anyone know yet if it still needs a tuning adapter when on Time Warner Cable with SDV? 3) I don't see anything about the $600 All-in service option on their website. Is this something that comes later?


1. Bottom
2. Yes
3. Can be added when you activate or after your free year is up and deciding in next plan.

PS - all this has been covered in this very thread. Do a little reading if time permits. Lots of other goodies too.


----------



## Dan203

Dan203 said:


> I'm also guessing that they're going to do away with the dedicated Stream hardware inside the units and use the Briadcom teanscoding for streaming instead. That should make the boxes cheaper to make and allow them to lower the price.


Looks like I was right about this part too...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651438#post10651438

(spelling errors not withstanding)


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Looks like I was right about this part too...
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651438#post10651438
> 
> (spelling errors not withstanding)


Ya it also means the Bolt will not stream content from a Premiere or Base Roamio and has a one or two stream limit.


----------



## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> Ya it also means the Bolt will not stream content from a Premiere or Base Roamio and has a one or two stream limit.


I believe the limit is 2. Not sure why it would mean it wouldn't stream from other units though. The current Stream works by essentially using the existing MRS streaming feature from the host to the Stream hardware, then it transcodes that on the fly and outputs an HLS stream to the mobile device. There is nothing that would prevent these new units from doing the same thing. The only thing that's really changed is the encoder. The rest of the software is essentially the same. (I presume)

I'm guessing that the reason they don't have OOH streaming working yet is because they haven't got the dynamic encoding portion of the code converted over to the new chip. With the original Stream they didn't release the OOH streaming until the Roamio was released, which was over a year after the initial Stream hardware was released.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> I had around 300 Season passes at one point. I think I'm down to around 250 right now on my main TiVo.


jeez dude. how do you do anything other than watch TV?


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> jeez dude. how do you do anything other than watch TV?


As I mentioned earlier I only watch a tiny percentage of what I actually record. I like to record a lot of content because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. I don't watch anywhere near the amount of TV I watched twenty Five years ago. When I used a bunch of VCRs for my time shifting.

So when I do sit down to watch something I like to have a wide variety of content to choose from. And to do that I need to record a lot of content. Plus I have zero desire to ever watch live TV so recording a bunch of content also avoids that painful activity.


----------



## trip1eX

aaronwt said:


> As I mentioned earlier I only watch a tiny percentage of what I actually record. I like to record a lot of content because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. I don't watch anywhere near the amount of TV I watched twenty Five years ago. When I used a bunch of VCRs for my time shifting.
> 
> So when I do sit down to watch something I like to have a wide variety of content to choose from. And to do that I need to record a lot of content. Plus I have zero desire to ever watch live TV so recording a bunch of content also avoids that painful activity.


That's alot though. I'd run into the problem of figuring out what to watch like I do when I'm on Netflix. I wonder how many on Netflix spend more time looking at what there is to watch rather than watching something?


----------



## innocentfreak

trip1eX said:


> That's alot though. I'd run into the problem of figuring out what to watch like I do when I'm on Netflix. I wonder how many on Netflix spend more time looking at what there is to watch rather than watching something?


It isn't that many .

For me the trick is I have set shows I watch by the weekend and even sometimes the night they air.

I have filler shows that only record and keep an episode or two. These range everything from music series like Unplugged to sketch comedy shows to shows like Taboo and other long running documentary type series. Those add up quickly.

Then I have those limbo shows. These are shows that were never officially cancelled but might still return since they are on cable. Until I read they are truly cancelled I leave the OnePass.

A lot of content also drops to my NAS for when I eventually get the itch to binge on a series.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> That's alot though. I'd run into the problem of figuring out what to watch like I do when I'm on Netflix. I wonder how many on Netflix spend more time looking at what there is to watch rather than watching something?


I do that all the time. Spend so much time trying to find something to watch that I run out of time and end up watching nothing at all. Netflix's organization is terrible. You either scroll through endless lists of things it thinks you might like or you search for something specific.

Back in the old days you could do things like pull up all movies, then sort them by date or star rating. That allowed me to find things I might want to watch a lot easier.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> I do that all the time. Spend so much time trying to find something to watch that I run out of time and end up watching nothing at all. Netflix's organization is terrible. You either scroll through endless lists of things it thinks you might like or you search for something specific.


http://www.theonion.com/video/netflix-introduces-new-browse-endlessly-plan-35308


----------



## jcthorne

atmuscarella said:


> Ya it also means the Bolt will not stream content from a Premiere or Base Roamio and has a one or two stream limit.


No, it does not mean that at all. MRS will work from a premiere or Roamio just fine. Never did need a stream device for that. They stream the mpeg2 recording as is from the drive.


----------



## atmuscarella

jcthorne said:


> No, it does not mean that at all. MRS will work from a premiere or Roamio just fine. Never did need a stream device for that. They stream the mpeg2 recording as is from the drive.


Ya I know that was talking about using the "Stream" built into the Bolt to "Stream" content to an iOS or android device or to a computer through the TiVo web site. Unlike the "Stream" built into the Roamio +/pro which can "Stream" content to iOS/android devices from any Premiere or Roamio on your network/account the "Stream" built into the bolt can only Stream content from itself to iOS/Android devices, not content from other Premieres or Roamios on your network/account.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> Ya I know that was talking about using the "Stream" built into the Bolt to "Stream" content to an iOS or android device or to a computer through the TiVo web site. Unlike the "Stream" built into the Roamio +/pro which can "Stream" content to iOS/android devices from any Premiere or Roamio on your network/account the "Stream" built into the bolt can only Stream content from itself to iOS/Android devices, not content from other Premieres or Roamios on your network/account.


Is that what was said? I thought the Bolt could still stream from other TiVos just that it would only be limited to two streams(currently limited to one) since the Broadcom chip can only transcode two streams concurrently. Just like the stand alone stream or the one in the ROamio Pro/Plus is limited to four concurrent streams.


----------



## CoxInPHX

aaronwt said:


> Is that what was said? I thought the Bolt could still stream from other TiVos just that it would only be limited to two streams(currently limited to one) since the Broadcom chip can only transcode two streams concurrently. Just like the stand alone stream or the one in the ROamio Pro/Plus is limited to four concurrent streams.


Ira never answered the second part of my Question, so we won't know for certain, until someone gets one. Or perhaps already has one... 



> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651438&highlight=stream#post10651438
> We are using the new built-in Broadcom chip to do all of the transcoding where the previous Roamio and Roamio OTA had no transcoding and required the stream accessory. The stream accessory and Roamio Pro relied on a Zenverge co-processor to do all of the transcoding for mobile streaming. The BroadCom chip supports up to two simultaneous transcodes at once. One will be supported at launch and two will be supported shortly thereafter.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> As I mentioned earlier I only watch a tiny percentage of what I actually record. I like to record a lot of content because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. I don't watch anywhere near the amount of TV I watched twenty Five years ago. When I used a bunch of VCRs for my time shifting.
> 
> So when I do sit down to watch something I like to have a wide variety of content to choose from. And to do that I need to record a lot of content. Plus I have zero desire to ever watch live TV so recording a bunch of content also avoids that painful activity.


but you can go to a website and figure out news way faster than weeding through all those shows.


----------



## zerdian1

aaronwt said:


> I had around 300 Season passes at one point. I think I'm down to around 250 right now on my main TiVo.


I have 160 Season Passes on WeaKnees 12TB Roamio Pro and 40 on 4TB Roamio Pro and 30 on our 1.5TB Roamio Basic, or I have 230 different One Passes on our 17.5TB TiVo Roamio Series 5 DVR System.


----------



## TIVO_GUY_HERE

Got my bolt all set up. After on phone with TW on why I wasn't getting tuning adapter to work correctly, he found out it didn't have the latest firmware, but I had 2 others in the house, that did, so just switched them,so no all is well.

I copied my OP's from tivos to this one, all came over correctly, except for my wishlist OP's
All the titles were deleted, and all I had were keywords, and I have a LOT of wishlists so that is going to take some time to clean up.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> but you can go to a website and figure out news way faster than weeding through all those shows.


??? I go to the top of the list, since the newest show is at the top. Going to a website would take several times longer. And then I would be bombarded with ads from the website too.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> ??? I go to the top of the list, since the newest show is at the top. Going to a website would take several times longer. And then I would be bombarded with ads from the website too.


having to watch through a 60 minute news show is longer than just hitting the top headlines on a website, is what I mean. You're not just recording one news channel.

try adblock. you won't have ads.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> having to watch through a 60 minute news show is longer than just hitting the top headlines on a website, is what I mean. You're not just recording one news channel.
> 
> try adblock. you won't have ads.


ad block ends up blocking other stuff too. Which is why I don't use it.

For the news programs I'm not looking at all of them I've recorded. Maybe a couple. And some are only 30 minutes.


----------



## waynomo

Is 30 second skip still an option? (vs the 30 second scan)


----------



## krkaufman

waynomo said:


> Is 30 second skip still an option? (vs the 30 second scan)


Yup.

see: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532567


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## mjcxp

Does anyone know if you can add the all-in-plan anytime during the first year? From what I have read you need to decide immediately when you activate the device.


----------



## lessd

mjcxp said:


> Does anyone know if you can add the all-in-plan anytime during the first year? From what I have read you need to decide immediately when you activate the device.


If you purchase from TiVo you can't get All-in online, only the first year free, after the first year you can order (by phone) *All-in* before TiVo renews your yearly contract.
From 3rd pty. sellers when you active the unit you can get All-in or free 1 year service.


----------



## krkaufman

lessd said:


> From 3rd pty. sellers when you active the unit you can get All-in or free 1 year service.


Which, to me, forces the followup... Is there any reason one would buy "All In" from day one, then, rather than waiting until the 1-year of free service is coming to an end? It's not like All In is discounted if you opt to pay for it on day one, rather than riding out the year of free service.

The only complication I can see is in regards to the 2- or 3-year Extended Warranty, *if* someone is planning on going All In later. If they wait until the 1st year of free service is nearing its end, along with its Continual Care coverage, wouldn't they be too late to purchase an Extended Warranty to go along with the warranty-less All In/Lifetime service plan?


----------



## mjcxp

krkaufman said:


> Which, to me, forces the followup... Is there any reason one would buy "All In" from day one, then, rather than waiting until the 1-year of free service is coming to an end? It's not like All In is discounted if you opt to pay for it on day one, rather than riding out the year of free service.
> 
> The only complication I can see is in regards to the 2- or 3-year Extended Warranty, *if* someone is planning on going All In later. If they wait until the 1st year of free service is nearing its end, along with its Continual Care coverage, wouldn't they be too late to purchase an Extended Warranty to go along with the warranty-less All In/Lifetime service plan?


I went ahead and took the free year for now. I am debating about the all-in plan because I think the plan will probably pay itself back upon resell in the future. The Bolts that do not have the all-in plan will probably have minimal resale value in the future.

The audio dropout when entering Tivo Central seems to be greatly reduced and is hardly noticeable anymore when using a receiver. I am assuming the speed of the new SoC is the reason for this.


----------



## andyw715

mjcxp said:


> I went ahead and took the free year for now. I am debating about the all-in plan because I think the plan will probably pay itself back upon resell in the future. The Bolts that do not have the all-in plan will probably have minimal resale value in the future.


I would wait the year. Maybe there will be a price reduction.


----------



## krkaufman

mjcxp said:


> I went ahead and took the free year for now. I am debating about the all-in plan because I think the plan will probably pay itself back upon resell in the future. The Bolts that do not have the all-in plan will probably have minimal resale value in the future.


Heh, that makes me thing of another issue, related to what someone posted recently regarding the Extended Warranty....

The poster had purchased the Extended Warranty, and their TiVo died just within the normal limited warranty window; however, TiVo consider this to be the one-time use of the Extended Warranty and it was then consumed.

What would happen to someone who has purchased the All In service plan from day one...? Would they be covered under Continual Care for the first year, as an overlap with the All In -- or would All In supersede and their device wouldn't be covered under Continual Care?


----------



## NashGuy

lessd said:


> If you purchase from TiVo you can't get All-in online, only the first year free, after the first year you can order (by phone) *All-in* before TiVo renews your yearly contract.


Did someone at TiVo tell you this? I'm just asking because the fine print on their website doesn't mention anything about being able to opt for All-In after the first year is up. But it doesn't exactly say you can't either.


----------



## mjcxp

NashGuy said:


> Did someone at TiVo tell you this? I'm just asking because the fine print on their website doesn't mention anything about being able to opt for All-In after the first year is up. But it doesn't exactly say you can't either.


It look like if you transfer it to another account you can get all-in... So technically you could just transfer it to another account purchase all-in and then transfer it back to your account.


----------



## atmuscarella

mjcxp said:


> ...The Bolts that do not have the all-in plan will probably have minimal resale value in the future.
> ...


I would say that is a pretty safe bet. They are only $300 with a year of service now, which is likely their peak price. After that year of service is done I wouldn't think the unit would be worth any more than $100 maybe less depending on what deals TiVo was offering at the time.

When you compare the Bolt to Roamio pricing at release TiVo actually reduced the cost slightly for the unit + annual service ($300 for Bolt & $350 for Roamio without MRS), but drastically raised the price for the unit +lifetime ($900 for the Bolt & $600 for the Roamio for anyone who new about the discount code or qualified for MSD). So the real question I think most of us have is if there will be discounts or special offers that gets lifetime/all in service down again.


----------



## trip1eX

I guess lifetime still worth it when u figure resale. 

End of year 3: $600 via yearly vs $900 lifetime. 

But lifetime Bolt is going to be worth at least $300 at end of year 3 easy while yearly worth maybe $50 resale. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## b_scott

mjcxp said:


> The Bolts that do not have the all-in plan will probably have minimal resale value in the future.


Tivo has never cared and will never care about resale. It is a money loss for them if you resell a Lifetime box. It makes sense they would try and make the boxes more disposable and on a couple year cycle and make it more about the service as the thing you pay for.


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## Kremlar

I wouldn't put much faith in resale value, especially if you are looking 4+ years out. How many more years does Cable Card have left?


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## tarheelblue32

b_scott said:


> Tivo has never cared and will never care about resale. It is a money loss for them if you resell a Lifetime box. It makes sense they would try and make the boxes more disposable and on a couple year cycle and make it more about the service as the thing you pay for.


Actually that doesn't really make much sense for them either. If you buy a Bolt for $300, which is probably about how much it costs TiVo to manufacture it, and it includes the first year free, and you only keep it for one year after that, then they aren't really making that much from you. What they want is you buying a box and you paying monthly/yearly for as many years as possible. If each time you upgrade you get a free year of service included, that's a year that you aren't paying for service.


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## zerdian1

Kremlar said:


> I wouldn't put much faith in resale value, especially if you are looking 4+ years out. How many more years does Cable Card have left?


the comcast cable cards are about 11 or 12 years old according to comcast tech.
they reprogram them and reuse them.
very rare they have to dispose of one.
they have had no need to manufacture any new cable cards for over a dozen years.
Comcast says they are for for up to 6 tuners.
they are also good for two way.
our use so far is just downloading.

the comcast X1 boxes have their equivalent of a cable card built in.


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## wmcbrine

zerdian1 said:


> the comcast X1 boxes have their equivalent of a cable card built in.


Not an equivalent -- it is actually a CableCard. That was the whole point of the separable security mandate (now sadly expiring): to make the cable companies "eat their own dog food". Unfortunately it was undermined by allowing them to pre-pair the cards with their own rented boxes, so they never did establish the kind of smooth in-home CableCard installation procedures that would've put TiVo on an even footing.


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## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually that doesn't really make much sense for them either. If you buy a Bolt for $300, which is probably about how much it costs TiVo to manufacture it, and it includes the first year free, and you only keep it for one year after that, then they aren't really making that much from you. What they want is you buying a box and you paying monthly/yearly for as many years as possible. If each time you upgrade you get a free year of service included, that's a year that you aren't paying for service.


Maybe that's why they try to normally stick w/ a 3-year product cycle; they can get the 1st year plus 2 more out of you.


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## Kremlar

> the comcast cable cards are about 11 or 12 years old according to comcast tech.
> they reprogram them and reuse them.
> very rare they have to dispose of one.
> they have had no need to manufacture any new cable cards for over a dozen years.
> Comcast says they are for for up to 6 tuners.
> they are also good for two way.
> our use so far is just downloading.


I don't mean life of an actual Cable Card, but life of the technology itself. In 5 years they will likely be well into phasing in IP-based equipment. Comcast has a deal with TiVo for 5 years of support on their Cable Card products I believe, but will Cable Cards even be in use 6 or 7 years from now? Who knows.


----------



## atmuscarella

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually that doesn't really make much sense for them either. If you buy a Bolt for $300, which is probably about how much it costs TiVo to manufacture it, and it includes the first year free, and you only keep it for one year after that, then they aren't really making that much from you. What they want is you buying a box and you paying monthly/yearly for as many years as possible. If each time you upgrade you get a free year of service included, that's a year that you aren't paying for service.


I wonder how TiVos on going customer care program fits into this. In the past if had a 1+ year old TiVo on monthly or annual and it crapped out you where tempted to upgrade and junk the box, now it will only cost $50 to stay with the same unit, which is likely going to be cheaper than upgrading. Wonder if they will start offering special upgrade deals to people if their boxes go bad in a few years to move them to a newer platform.


----------



## tarheelblue32

atmuscarella said:


> I wonder how TiVos on going customer care program fits into this. In the past if had a 1+ year old TiVo on monthly or annual and it crapped out you where tempted to upgrade and junk the box, now it will only cost $50 to stay with the same unit, which is likely going to be cheaper than upgrading. Wonder if they will start offering special upgrade deals to people if their boxes go bad in a few years to move them to a newer platform.


Again, I really don't think TiVo cares that much if you upgrade, as long as you keep paying recurring fees to them.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> I guess lifetime still worth it when u figure resale.
> 
> End of year 3: $600 via yearly vs $900 lifetime.
> 
> But lifetime Bolt is going to be worth at least $300 at end of year 3 easy while yearly worth maybe $50 resale.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'd have to sell it for $350 just to break even with the yearly one. (assuming your $50 figure is correct) You may or may not get that, but even if you can what's the point? You're getting back the same amount so you essentially gave the new owner a $300 interest free loan. Plus there is the looming threat of a CableCARD replacement coming along and making the Bolt completely worthless.


----------



## atmuscarella

tarheelblue32 said:


> Again, I really don't think TiVo cares that much if you upgrade, as long as you keep paying recurring fees to them.


That maybe true as long as long as you don't cost them any money. But the minute they have to replace your unit for $50 that changes. At some point I would think they would like to stop refurbing old worn out units and move on. Just not sure when that point might be. Remember they already have some people paying monthly or annually on Roamios with continuous care.


----------



## tarheelblue32

atmuscarella said:


> That maybe true as long as long as you don't cost them any money. But the minute they have to replace your unit for $50 that changes. At some point I would think they would like to stop refurbing old worn out units and move on. Just not sure when that point might be. Remember they already have some people paying monthly or annually on Roamios with continuous care.


Sending you a refurb unit is much cheaper than them sending you a new one. Even sending you a new Roamio is cheaper than sending you a new Bolt, since the new Bolts cost more to manufacture.


----------



## atmuscarella

tarheelblue32 said:


> Sending you a refurb unit is much cheaper than them sending you a new one. Even sending you a new Roamio is cheaper than sending you a new Bolt, since the new Bolts cost more to manufacture.


Well I wouldn't expect TiVo to send you an upgrade for free. But I don't see why as time goes on they wouldn't try to up sell something to you. I guess it would depend on what their inventory is. It has only been 5.75 years since the TiVo HD was the current unit and now they don't even want to sub them anymore, are they really going to want to be sending out refurbed Roamios 4 or 5 years from now?


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Plus there is the looming threat of a CableCARD replacement coming along and making the Bolt completely worthless.


THAT would have been a good question to pose to Ira Bahr... as or more important than the "will BOLT record 4K?" question... Will the BOLT be useful beyond the life of CableCARD; that is, will the BOLT be to utilize whatever future downloadable security mechanism is developed to replace CableCARD, or will the BOLT's recording capabilities end when a given cable provider drops CableCARD support?

And followup... If "yes, the BOLT will record beyond CableCARD," then what other current TiVo models are expected to also be usable post-CableCARD?

All the talk about the slow demise of CableCARD certainly has me wondering about making ANY future CableCARD device purchases, let alone a BOLT or BOLT Pro.


----------



## atmuscarella

krkaufman said:


> THAT would have been a good question to pose to Ira Bahr... as or more important than the "will BOLT record 4K?" question... Will the BOLT be useful beyond the life of CableCARD; that is, will the BOLT be to utilize whatever future downloadable security mechanism is developed to replace CableCARD, or will the BOLT's recording capabilities end when a given cable provider drops CableCARD support?
> 
> And followup... If "yes, the BOLT will record beyond CableCARD," then what other current TiVo models are expected to also be usable post-CableCARD?
> 
> All the talk about the slow demise of CableCARD certainly has me wondering about making ANY future CableCARD device purchases, let alone a BOLT or BOLT Pro.


I asked a pretty specific question about when he thought a cable card replacement would be coming and what it would do to their line up. Response is here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10651210#post10651210.

But given the replacement isn't set yet no way he could have answered any question about what units could work with it.


----------



## Dan203

Let's break down the old lifetime vs the new one and see why it use to be a deal and now it's not...

Old version...

You buy the box for $150, no service is included. Your options for service are $15/mo, $150/year or $400/lifetime with PLSR code. If you choose lifetime then it's equivalent to 2 years and 8 months of service at the yearly rate. So if you sell at the 3 year mark for $350 you've actually made $250 profit compared to what you would have paid if you'd have paid yearly and sold the box for $50.

New version....

You buy the box for $300 and it includes 1 year of service. Your options for service are $15/mo, $150/year or $600/lifetime. If you choose lifetime then it's equivalent to 5 years of service at the yearly rate. So if you sell at the 3 year mark for $350 you're now exactly even compared to what you would have paid if you'd have paid yearly and sold the box for $50. Adding to that you do not get the "continual warranty" with lifetime, devaluing it even more.


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Let's break down the old lifetime vs the new one and see why it use to be a deal and now it's not...
> 
> Old version...
> 
> You buy the box for $150, no service is included. Your options for service are $15/mo, $150/year or $400/lifetime with PLSR code. If you choose lifetime then it's equivalent to 2 years and 8 months of service at the yearly rate. So if you sell at the 3 year mark for $350 you've actually made $250 profit compared to what you would have paid if you'd have paid yearly and sold the box for $50.
> 
> New version....
> 
> You buy the box for $300 and it includes 1 year of service. Your options for service are $15/mo, $150/year or $600/lifetime. If you choose lifetime then it's equivalent to 5 years of service at the yearly rate. So if you sell at the 3 year mark for $350 you're now exactly even compared to what you would have paid if you'd have paid yearly and sold the box for $50. Adding to that you do not get the "continual warranty" with lifetime, devaluing it even more.


I think most of us have figured out that as structured now lifetime/all in doesn't make any sense. What we don't know is if there will come a time when TiVo ends up offering a lower cost lifetime price. Say at 3 years, at that point maybe TiVo knows units are going to start to fail so they offer people a lifetime deal say maybe $199 when it is time for your 4th year of service - they have gotten $800 from ya total and successfully removed their continuous care liability.


----------



## BobCamp1

krkaufman said:


> THAT would have been a good question to pose to Ira Bahr... as or more important than the "will BOLT record 4K?" question... Will the BOLT be useful beyond the life of CableCARD; that is, will the BOLT be to utilize whatever future downloadable security mechanism is developed to replace CableCARD, or will the BOLT's recording capabilities end when a given cable provider drops CableCARD support?
> 
> And followup... If "yes, the BOLT will record beyond CableCARD," then what other current TiVo models are expected to also be usable post-CableCARD?
> 
> All the talk about the slow demise of CableCARD certainly has me wondering about making ANY future CableCARD device purchases, let alone a BOLT or BOLT Pro.


Ira's not going to be able to answer that post-CableCard question for you, as he does not have a crystal ball or a time machine. My guess is no, but it's just a guess.

The answer to the 4K question is yes, but how many recording hours is that going to be? I think it's 9 hours with the 500 GB model assuming there are no other recordings on it, which is a non-starter. The 1 TB model would be more suited for that, but it's still only around 19 hours. Considering there are zero 4K channels being broadcast, and most cable companies don't have enough bandwidth today as it is, I suspect the Bolt will be obsolete by the time cable companies switch to 4K.


----------



## wmcbrine

I'm not sure why people are expecting poor 4K recording capacity. Don't forget that (although not absolutely required) 4K is likely to be delivered via HEVC, at a lower bitrate than would be needed for h.264 or MPEG-2. As a specific example, Netflix is currently using 15.6 Mbps for their 4K, which is lower than the maximum bitrate of at OTA HD channel (19.2 Mbps).


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> You'd have to sell it for $350 just to break even with the yearly one. (assuming your $50 figure is correct) You may or may not get that, but even if you can what's the point? You're getting back the same amount so you essentially gave the new owner a $300 interest free loan. Plus there is the looming threat of a CableCARD replacement coming along and making the Bolt completely worthless.


I agree. Given the current pricing structure, lack of Continual Assurance (warranty) on All-In, plus future uncertainly surrounding CableCard and 4K linear cable channel transmission standards, I don't see how buying All-In makes any sense right now. And who knows, maybe two years from now TiVo runs some special deal to give you All-In for a bargain on your 2 year-old Bolt. Paying an extra $600 now though is, in my view, not a great bet. Which is exactly the conclusion TiVo wants you to come to, I guess.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> You'd have to sell it for $350 just to break even with the yearly one. (assuming your $50 figure is correct) You may or may not get that, but even if you can what's the point? You're getting back the same amount so you essentially gave the new owner a $300 interest free loan. Plus there is the looming threat of a CableCARD replacement coming along and making the Bolt completely worthless.


yeah but $300-$350 seems like a worst case resale value after 3 years given the new pricing structure.


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## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> yeah but $300-$350 seems like a worst case resale value after 3 years given the new pricing structure.


Maybe, or maybe the new CableCARD replacement comes out rendering the box useless and you can't sell it at all. The rules essentially say that if they come out with a new standard, and there is at least one retail device that uses it, they can stop issuing new CableCARDs. They have to continue to support the ones already in use for a while, but they can stop issuing new ones immediately which would essentially kill the resale market.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Maybe, or maybe the new CableCARD replacement comes out rendering the box useless and you can't sell it at all. The rules essentially say that if they come out with a new standard, and there is at least one retail device that uses it, they can stop issuing new CableCARDs. They have to continue to support the ones already in use for a while, but they can stop issuing new ones immediately which would essentially kill the resale market.


The at least one retail device support was a condition put into Charter's CableCard waiver, but I'm not aware of it being applied anywhere else.


----------



## krkaufman

A discounted BOLT for the bold....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181895160603

edit:*WARNING:* Later posts indicate activation issues w/ deeply discounted BOLTs purchased through eBay. Proceed w/ caution. (i.e. the "for the bold" caution may have been spot-on)


----------



## duckman2000

krkaufman said:


> A discounted BOLT for the bold....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181895160603


Excessive "handling" time listed ... over two weeks to get? Red flag!


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> A discounted BOLT for the bold....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181895160603


 Wow! That is tempting. But just coming from California for me means it work take a minimum of a week to get here(East Coast) after being shipped.

The Sellers other sales also show extended shipping times, but the seller also has 100% positive feedback. That along with the ebay guarantee i wouldn't have any problem purchasing it from that seller.


----------



## tarheelblue32

aaronwt said:


> Wow! That is tempting. But just coming from California for me means it work take a minimum of a week to get here(East Coast) after being shipped.
> 
> The Sellers other sales also show extended shipping times, but the seller also has 100% positive feedback. That along with the ebay guarantee i wouldn't have any problem purchasing it from that seller.


Yeah he has good seller feedback. I wouldn't be too worried. He also has the "make offer" button available. I might try offering him $200 to see if he would accept that. If he did, that would only be $50 for the unit since the first year ($150 value) is free.


----------



## tatergator1

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah he has good seller feedback. I wouldn't be too worried. He also has the "make offer" button available. I might try offering him $200 to see if he would accept that. If he did, that would only be $50 for the unit since the first year ($150 value) is free.


I checked a few of his past items and he seems to occasionally sell a rather random lot of "NEW" items usually in the 20%+ off range, which would typically be a red flag. But as mentioned, feedback is perfect. I'm wondering if these items were acquired via retailer discounts/promos, i.e. he got the Bolt's from Best Buy using gift cards acquired at a steep discount, etc. I guess you couldn't rule out a more nefarious source of the items, but it's hard to say for sure.


----------



## tarheelblue32

tatergator1 said:


> I checked a few of his past items and he seems to occasionally sell a rather random lot of "NEW" items usually in the 20%+ off range, which would typically be a red flag. But as mentioned, feedback is perfect. I'm wondering if these items were acquired via retailer discounts/promos, i.e. he got the Bolt's from Best Buy using gift cards acquired at a steep discount, etc. I guess you couldn't rule out a more nefarious source of the items, but it's hard to say for sure.


Stolen items is always a possible concern on ebay, but if he were dealing in stolen goods, I would expect at least some of his feedback to indicate that. With a 100% positive rating, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> Maybe, or maybe the new CableCARD replacement comes out rendering the box useless and you can't sell it at all. The rules essentially say that if they come out with a new standard, and there is at least one retail device that uses it, they can stop issuing new CableCARDs. They have to continue to support the ones already in use for a while, but they can stop issuing new ones immediately which would essentially kill the resale market.


Could happen.


----------



## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> Stolen items is always a possible concern on ebay, but if he were dealing in stolen goods, I would expect at least some of his feedback to indicate that. With a 100% positive rating, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.


yeah good seller feedback. Doesn't say anything about 1 yr of free service though.

Wonder if it is some sort of employee discount like the codes given to retail employees before and he's buying and reselling the units.


----------



## tarheelblue32

trip1eX said:


> yeah good seller feedback. Doesn't anything about 1 yr of free service though.


All new Bolts come with 1 year free service. If we were a year past the Bolt launch, then I would be worried about that. But the Bolt has only been out a few days, so these have to have the 1 year of free service included with them.


----------



## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> All new Bolts come with 1 year free service. If we were a year past the Bolt launch, then I would be worried about that. But the Bolt has only been out a few days, so these have to have the 1 year of free service included with them.


Yes I know. But wouldn't be too sure of that when we're talking a Bolt discounted to $230 on Ebay with the seller giving you the option to make even lower offers.


----------



## lessd

trip1eX said:


> Yes I know. But wouldn't be too sure of that when we're talking a Bolt discounted to $230 on Ebay with the seller giving you the option to make even lower offers.


Given his E-Bay cost is about $30 + shipping that could be as much a $15 means his net is less than $200, that about what Best Buy cost are. Some time ago I purchased a Roamio for $280 when the list price was still $399, the unit got delivered directly from Best Buy, I thought this must a scam so I called Best Buy and they told me the order was ligit., I asked them if I could return the unit and what cr. I would get, they told me my cr. would be $399!! I have been using the Roamio for almost two years now without problems, there was some sort of scam but I don't know what it was as Best Buy had my address and knew who I was.


----------



## tarheelblue32

trip1eX said:


> Yes I know. But wouldn't be too sure of that when we're talking a Bolt discounted to $230 on Ebay with the seller giving you the option to make even lower offers.


Well, seeing as it's *literally impossible* to get a new Bolt without the 1 year of free service included, I'm pretty sure that's not a concern.


----------



## keenanSR

krkaufman said:


> A discounted BOLT for the bold....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181895160603


Looks like TiVo 'Friends and Family' pricing.


----------



## tatergator1

lessd said:


> Given his E-Bay cost is about $30 + shipping that could be as much a $15 means his net is less than $200, that about what Best Buy cost are. Some time ago I purchased a Roamio for $280 when the list price was still $399, the unit got delivered directly from Best Buy, I thought this must a scam so I called Best Buy and they told me the order was ligit., I asked them if I could return the unit and what cr. I would get, they told me my cr. would be $399!! I have been using the Roamio for almost two years now without problems, there was some sort of scam but I don't know what it was as Best Buy had my address and knew who I was.


Yes, and many of us spent several days trying to convince you that the website you got it from was very likely part of a drop-shipping scam, most likely using stolen CC's to make the order from a legit retailer and having the retailer ship to the customer.

The initial source of the $230 eBay Bolt is less clear, and has a chance of being legit.


----------



## HarperVision

That's about the dealer cost from what I've heard. Doesn't matter anyway now as they're sold.


----------



## keenanSR

HarperVision said:


> That's about the dealer cost from what I've heard. Doesn't matter anyway now as they're sold.


Yes, maybe an employee or friend of an employee selling off their F&F allotment.


----------



## trip1eX

tarheelblue32 said:


> Well, seeing as it's *literally impossible* to get a new Bolt without the 1 year of free service included, I'm pretty sure that's not a concern.


 I'm well aware Bolts are sold at retail with 1 yr service.

I choose to not be so overconfident when it comes to too good to be true pricing.


----------



## HarperVision

I'm sure it's like the Mini when they went to automatic Lifetime service with ANY Mini activation. I think you're giving TiVo too much credit to be able to pick and choose which Bolt does and doesn't get the year of free service.


----------



## trip1eX

HarperVision said:


> I'm sure it's like the Mini when they went to automatic Lifetime service with ANY Mini activation. I think you're giving TiVo too much credit to be able to pick and choose which Bolt does and doesn't get the year of free service.


I'm not giving Tivo any credit. I'm just doing the math here. It's Ebay. Price sounds too good to be true. IT doesn't say comes with 1 yr service. Some healthy skepticism is warranted.

I'm not going to go place $10k down on "no service is included" contrary to how some of you think my post reads.


----------



## keenanSR

trip1eX said:


> I'm not giving Tivo any credit. I'm just doing the math here. It's Ebay. Price sounds too good to be true. IT doesn't say comes with 1 yr service. Some healthy skepticism is warranted.
> 
> I'm not going to go place $10k down on "no service is included" contrary to how some of you think my post reads.


It looks like TiVo to retail vendor pricing to me. In this case, since there were only 2 for sale my guess is that they were employee allotments that the employee chose to sell instead of keep and use. Not a big mystery.

I should add though that when dealing with ebay caution is always a good thing.


----------



## Jed1

keenanSR said:


> Yes, maybe an employee or friend of an employee selling off their F&F allotment.


According to TiVoDesigns Twitter page, each employee was given a new Bolt so this would be the most likely scenario.
https://twitter.com/tivodesign/with_replies


----------



## keenanSR

Jed1 said:


> According to TiVoDesigns Twitter page, each employee was given a new Bolt so this would be the most likely scenario.
> https://twitter.com/tivodesign/with_replies


Well, there you go!


----------



## HarperVision

He must've liked his Roamio better!


----------



## krkaufman

HarperVision said:


> He must've liked his Roamio better!


If that was an employee's BOLT, some eBay buyer is gonna be a truly happy camper...

See:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/651564364000948224


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> If that was an employee's BOLT, some eBay buyer is gonna be a truly happy camper...
> 
> See:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/651564364000948224


Technically the units they give away have "evaluation" service. If they are sold or transferred TiVo can revoke the service if they want to. Although in the past they haven't, but they could, so you couldn't really sell it as having lifetime just in case.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> Technically the units they give away have "evaluation" service. If they are sold or transferred TiVo can revoke the service if they want to. Although in the past they haven't, but they could, so you couldn't really sell it as having lifetime just in case.


But if it was a TiVo employee unit with *All-in *the person who purchased it would have gotten the deal of the century, as such a Bolt will cost you $900 today + tax. The seller would know if the Bolt had such service and sold it for a lot more money.


----------



## Dan203

It's not true "all in" service. It's a special service level listed as "11:evaluation" which TiVo can technically revoke if the box is transferred to another account. So you couldn't really charge more for it if there was a possibility TiVo would take it away when you moved it to your account.


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> It's not true "all in" service. It's a special service level listed as "11:evaluation" which TiVo can technically revoke if the box is transferred to another account. So you couldn't really charge more for it if there was a possibility TiVo would take it away when you moved it to your account.


I know of many TiVos that were sold with 11:evaluation, never heard of one that was canceled, but it could have happened. Most people (not on this Forum) would even know about 11:evaluation and if the Bolt keep running past the first year all would be great, but if you tried to xfer such a Bolt to your TiVo account, that may be where the problem is.

But, someone was selling codes for retail store employees to purchase Roamios at a big discount, the terms said only for such employee use, many on this Forum purchased the codes and the TiVo products that went with them, and would have reported if the service had ever been taken away.


----------



## TazExprez

krkaufman said:


> A discounted BOLT for the bold....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181895160603


Great price!

Forum member Davisadm, an authorized TiVo dealer, also has great prices on the Bolt DVRs. I contacted him and got a great quote! He will probably have them in stock in the next week, or so.


----------



## krkaufman

TazExprez said:


> Great price!


Apparently 4 more available, as of 5:39pm Eastern/US (Oct8)...

TiVo BOLT 500GB Unified Entertainment System ($239, free shipping)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181897063160​
edit:*WARNING:* Later posts indicate activation issues w/ deeply discounted BOLTs purchased through eBay. Proceed w/ caution.


----------



## gigaguy

I got a notice that the seller accepted my offer but I was using my phone and maybe clicked on the wrong link to purchase, I'm asking for a credit to the lower offer he accepted.
now I need a drive.


----------



## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> Apparently 4 more available, as of 5:39pm Eastern/US (Oct8)...
> 
> TiVo BOLT 500GB Unified Entertainment System ($239, free shipping)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181897063160​


And SOLD OUT, again.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> It's not true "all in" service. It's a special service level listed as "11:evaluation" which TiVo can technically revoke if the box is transferred to another account. So you couldn't really charge more for it if there was a possibility TiVo would take it away when you moved it to your account.


My free Mini that TiVo gave me says it's an evaluation unit instead of showing lifetime


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> Apparently 4 more available, as of 5:39pm Eastern/US (Oct8)...
> 
> TiVo BOLT 500GB Unified Entertainment System ($239, free shipping)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181897063160​


I have a second Bolt on the way. I saw this thread earlier when I was on the shuttle at work and put in an offer. I completely forgot about it. But it had been accepted and I just paid for it.

I guess if this Bolt pans out I will be selling my Roamio Pro later this year and going back to two, four tuner TiVos. Like I had when the four tuner Premieres came out.

Still not fan of how the Bolt looks, but I've now become a huge fan of the Quick Mode and the Skip mode. I watched two shows this evening with the skip mode and now I don't want to go back to the scan mode. If it wasn't accurate I wouldn't like it. but if all the shows are just as accurate, then this is a huge winner for me.


----------



## SamD

How about using together Bolt (with CableCard) and PremiereXL4 (without CableCard)?
Will I be able to use cardless Premiere as storage and alternative viewer if Bolt and Premiere are on the same local network?
I have Premiere already and looking to the Bolt...if their coexistence under the single card umbrella is feasible.


----------



## wmcbrine

SamD said:


> Will I be able to use cardless Premiere as storage and alternative viewer if Bolt and Premiere are on the same local network?


Sure. Not for Live TV of the cable channels*, but otherwise, yes.

* It would be nice if TiVos had an option to go into "Mini mode", and stream from the live tuner of another TiVo. But they don't.


----------



## atmuscarella

SamD said:


> How about using together Bolt (with CableCard) and PremiereXL4 (without CableCard)?
> Will I be able to use cardless Premiere as storage and alternative viewer if Bolt and Premiere are on the same local network?
> I have Premiere already and looking to the Bolt...if their coexistence under the single card umbrella is feasible.





wmcbrine said:


> Sure. Not for Live TV of the cable channels*, but otherwise, yes.
> 
> * It would be nice if TiVos had an option to go into "Mini mode", and stream from the live tuner of another TiVo. But they don't.


I agree TiVo should have away for Premire/Roamio/Bolt DVRs to share tuners or as wmbrine said a "Mini Mode". Just a note on using a Premiere 4 without a cable card, if your cable system still has un-encrypted channels (on TWC here it is actually more than just the locals) the Premiere 4 will be able to tune them as live channels and of course also record from them via manual recording.


----------



## randy1649

Just one quick question. Does the 500gb Bolt have built-in Moca like the Tivo roamio pro?


----------



## atmuscarella

randy1649 said:


> Just one quick question. Does the 500gb Bolt have built-in Moca like the Tivo roamio pro?


Yes


----------



## krkaufman

randy1649 said:


> Just one quick question. Does the 500gb Bolt have built-in Moca like the Tivo roamio pro?





atmuscarella said:


> Yes


*Yes*, and one better... BOLT is MoCA 2.0 -- not so important for current communications with TiVo Mini v1 & v2 devices, which are MoCA 1.1, but it may offer a network speed boost for those using MoCA 2.0-capable gateways (Xfinity XB3, FiOS Quantum) or MoCA 2.0 adapters.


----------



## ncbill

But can these units be transferred to one's Tivo account for streaming/sharing/etc?



krkaufman said:


> Apparently 4 more available, as of 5:39pm Eastern/US (Oct8)...
> 
> TiVo BOLT 500GB Unified Entertainment System ($239, free shipping)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181897063160​


----------



## krkaufman

ncbill said:


> But can these units be transferred to one's Tivo account for streaming/sharing/etc?


One presumes, based on the assumption that the seller would prefer to AVOID negative eBay feedback and the devices being returned. But we won't know for sure until someone who's purchased one provides direct feedback, either here or on *eBay*.


----------



## SamD

Just found this document - TiVo Service Plans and Policies.Essentials.
This document states:
"The All-In Plan ($599.99 one-time fee, plus any applicable taxes) replaces Product Lifetime Service (PLS). It provides service for the life of the TiVo device for which it is purchased, and remains with the device in the event of an ownership transfer. The All-In Plan is available for TiVo BOLT Series UESs and Roamio Pro DVRs. Devices that already have PLS will continue to receive service for the life of the device."

It doesn't matter who sold the device: tivo.com or any retailer.
All-In is listed in a table of plans as "Optional plan":
"Optional plans listed are available within 30 days of initial activation, or after 1 year of included TiVo Service".

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone bought Bolt from tivo.com and successfully selected All-In plan during/after activation?


----------



## dswallow

SamD said:


> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone bought Bolt from tivo.com and successfully selected All-In plan during/after activation?


There is really nothing gained buying "All In" when you buy the Bolt. No discount to buy it up front. All you might hope to do is avoid a price hike later, which probably has very little chance. If anything, it'll probably be reduced. I suppose the only possibility is for those who're giving it as a gift and just want it to be fully paid up front.


----------



## SamD

Well, I'm just surprised why the serious commercial organization like TiVo Inc plays these Peekaboo games, like hiding all-in plan definitions, price and availabilty in some obscure documents instead of presenting to the customer all available options at the first page of their website.


----------



## apw2607

I've got no connection with these folks, but beach audio is selling the 1TB Bolt for $315 and the 500Gb Bolt for $230

1TB (7 left)
http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849000-p-787019.html

500GB (23 left)
http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849500-p-787020.html

Brand new. Free shipping.

I came across them on amazon, as they were selling for a brief time on amazon.com. Their overall rating on bestbuy where they sometimes sell is 4.2 out of 5. I don't have any personal experience with them. Maybe worth checking out if you want a few buck off a new Bolt.


----------



## tarheelblue32

apw2607 said:


> I've got no connection with these folks, but beach audio is selling the 1TB Bolt for $315 and the 500Gb Bolt for $230
> 
> 1TB (7 left)
> http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849000-p-787019.html
> 
> 500GB (23 left)
> http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849500-p-787020.html
> 
> Brand new. Free shipping.
> 
> I came across them on amazon, as they were selling for a brief time on amazon.com. There overall rating on bestbuy where they sometimes sell is 4.2 out of 5. I don't have any personal experience with them. Maybe worth checking out if you want a few buck off a new Bolt.


I actually beat you by 10 minutes 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532776

And they are actually selling the Bolt for $231, which is a great deal. When I first posted about it, there were 25 left, now they are down to 22, so they seem to be going pretty fast at this price.


----------



## apw2607

tarheelblue32 said:


> I actually beat you by 10 minutes
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=532776
> 
> And they are actually selling the Bolt for $231, which is a great deal. When I first posted about it, there were 25 left, now they are down to 22, so they seem to be going pretty fast at this price.


Nice ! I didn't think to look for a new forum post. Oh well ... lets hope some folks on here can take advantage of this lower price.


----------



## tarheelblue32

apw2607 said:


> Nice ! I didn't think to look for a new forum post. Oh well ... lets hope some folks on here can take advantage of this lower price.


I figured starting a dedicated "Bolt Deals" thread was appropriate, since the "Roamio Deals" thread has been so useful over the years.


----------



## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> I figured starting a dedicated "Bolt Deals" thread was appropriate, since the "Roamio Deals" thread has been so useful over the years.


yeah, I was thinking that the last couple of days, after posting links to those eBay auctions in this thread.

Thanks.


----------



## The TiVo Dude

Do the Beach Audio units include the free year of service? (Might make up for the price difference.)


----------



## tarheelblue32

The TiVo Dude said:


> Do the Beach Audio units include the free year of service? (Might make up for the price difference.)


All new Bolts include the free year of service, so yes.


----------



## The TiVo Dude

I've always been a lifetime guy, but 4 years of service prepaid...thinking about just going annual...

...or make that 5 years with the free year...

Add the 2 year old Roamio Pro w lifetime already running the house...

Tho this could be added to give 1080p (and in the future, 4k) on the main tv...

...tho on further check Beach is sold out...


----------



## tarheelblue32

The TiVo Dude said:


> I've always been a lifetime guy, but 4 years of service prepaid...thinking about just going annual...
> 
> ...or make that 5 with the free year...


Yeah the "all in" lifetime really isn't a good deal anymore. I'm a "lifetime guy" too, but if I bought a Bolt I wouldn't go for the lifetime.


----------



## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah the "all in" lifetime really isn't a good deal anymore. I'm a "lifetime guy" too, but if I bought a Bolt I wouldn't go for the lifetime.


I will say that the new Lifetime/All In price makes buying TiVos as a gift more difficult.


----------



## tarheelblue32

krkaufman said:


> I will say that the new Lifetime/All In price makes buying TiVos as a gift more difficult.


Well, not necessarily. It has a free year of service. Just tell whomever you give it to that if they don't want to keep using it and paying for the service after the first year to just give it back to you.


----------



## L David Matheny

krkaufman said:


> I will say that the new Lifetime/All In price makes buying TiVos as a gift more difficult.


TiVo might think it makes it easier: Your gift TiVo includes a reasonable one year of service, after which the recipient decides whether they like it enough to extend or go all-in. But it does make the unit sort of a white elephant.


----------



## atmuscarella

krkaufman said:


> I will say that the new Lifetime/All In price makes buying TiVos as a gift more difficult.


Ya TiVos as gifts have always been hard either you bought lifetime or were forcing someone into a service contract. But with the Bolt the person gets the unit and one year of service as the gift with no commitment to continue, that actually sounds like a pretty good gift especially if the units is installed and setup as part of the gift.

I remember back when DishNetwork first started you had to buy the equipment and pay for installation. My brother and I bought my parents a 2 receiver system, paid for an annual subscription (they had annual subs back then) and installed it for them as a gift. They were very happy and didn't mind at all that they had to pay for service after the year was up.


----------



## krkaufman

FYI... I just came across the TiVo BOLT Viewer's Guide while googling.


----------



## jonw747

apw2607 said:


> I've got no connection with these folks, but beach audio is selling the 1TB Bolt for $315 and the 500Gb Bolt for $230
> 
> 1TB (7 left)
> http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849000-p-787019.html
> 
> 500GB (23 left)
> http://www.beachaudio.com/Tivo/Tcd849500-p-787020.html
> 
> Brand new. Free shipping.
> 
> I came across them on amazon, as they were selling for a brief time on amazon.com. Their overall rating on bestbuy where they sometimes sell is 4.2 out of 5. I don't have any personal experience with them. Maybe worth checking out if you want a few buck off a new Bolt.


Beach Audio used to be another one of those gray market A/V web sites, the sorts that would play bait & switch games, hold on to your money for way too long, try to upsell you over priced accesories and extended warranties, sell a foreign model without US warranty without saying it, or pull gear out of the package and sell it separately.

I'm not sure much has changed ... they've got 1 star rating at resellerratings and sounds like some of the same stories go on.


----------



## apw2607

jonw747 said:


> Beach Audio used to be another one of those gray market A/V web sites, the sorts that would play bait & switch games, hold on to your money for way too long, try to upsell you over priced accesories and extended warranties, sell a foreign model without US warranty without saying it, or pull gear out of the package and sell it separately.
> 
> I'm not sure much has changed ... they've got 1 star rating at resellerratings and sounds like some of the same stories go on.


Perhaps everyone that ordered from them will get Tivo Premiers dipped in white paint.


----------



## aaronwt

SamD said:


> Just found this document - TiVo Service Plans and Policies.Essentials.
> This document states:
> "The All-In Plan ($599.99 one-time fee, plus any applicable taxes) replaces Product Lifetime Service (PLS). It provides service for the life of the TiVo device for which it is purchased, and remains with the device in the event of an ownership transfer. The All-In Plan is available for TiVo BOLT Series UESs and Roamio Pro DVRs. Devices that already have PLS will continue to receive service for the life of the device."
> 
> It doesn't matter who sold the device: tivo.com or any retailer.
> All-In is listed in a table of plans as "Optional plan":
> "Optional plans listed are available within 30 days of initial activation, or after 1 year of included TiVo Service".
> 
> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone bought Bolt from tivo.com and successfully selected All-In plan during/after activation?


When I activated my Bolt from BestBuy it gave me the option for All In or the included one year of service


----------



## mjcxp

aaronwt said:


> When I activated my Bolt from BestBuy it gave me the option for All In or the included one year of service


What is the point of paying for the all-in service initially? It makes absolutely no sense...


----------



## atmuscarella

mjcxp said:


> What is the point of paying for the all-in service initially? It makes absolutely no sense...


I think that is what most all of us have concluded. I am sure TiVo would take a persons money but I don't think TiVo is expecting many people to buy lifetime/all in right now.


----------



## cwerdna

mjcxp said:


> What is the point of paying for the all-in service initially? It makes absolutely no sense...


Maybe one might want to if they predict it'll go up even more after the year's up? Or, if TiVo takes it away, as a choice? (shrug)

Sorry, I haven't been participating in all-in/lifetime discussion (or much about TiVo Bolt). Lack of time. Perhaps this was covered already.


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## CoxInPHX

cwerdna said:


> Maybe one might want to if they predict it'll go up even more after the year's up? Or, if TiVo takes it away, as a choice? (shrug)
> 
> Sorry, I haven't been participating in all-in/lifetime discussion. Perhaps this was covered already.


All-In makes no sense, partly because you loose the Continual Warranty you get with Yearly Service (or Monthly)



> TiVos Continual Care warranty covers your TiVo BOLT or TiVo Roamio for the uninterrupted duration of your monthly or annual TiVo service subscription. With Continual Care protection, well send you a replacement box at no charge if your TiVo BOLT or TiVo Roamio needs repair within the first 90 days from your date of purchase.* After 90 days, youll receive a replacement box for just $49.00.** No one else in the industry offers protection quite like this.


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## LightningBOLT

cwerdna said:


> Maybe one might want to if they predict it'll go up even more after the year's up? Or, if TiVo takes it away, as a choice? (shrug)
> 
> Sorry, I haven't been participating in all-in/lifetime discussion (or much about TiVo Bolt). Lack of time. Perhaps this was covered already.


The CSRs that I spoke to hinted at LT going on sale at some point. It could be a smart upsell once the user has had the box for a few months.


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## krkaufman

CoxInPHX said:


> All-In makes no sense, partly because you loose the Continual Warranty you get with Yearly Service (or Monthly)


True. With Lifetime/All In, you're stuck with the standard Limited Warranty, unless you splurge for the Extended Warranty, which pushes the break-even for Lifetime/All In service a few months beyond the 5-year mark -- while leaving your All In box unprotected for the last 2+ of that 5+ year window. (Or can the Extended Warranty be extended further, beyond the 3 years?)


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## lessd

aaronwt said:


> When I activated my Bolt from BestBuy it gave me the option for All In or the included one year of service


One who does not like to keep track of stuff my purchase All-in so not to miss the automatic one year TiVo renew.


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## aaronwt

lessd said:


> One who does not like to keep track of stuff my purchase All-in so not to miss the automatic one year TiVo renew.


I selected the one year. But I still have thirty days to change my mind.


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## eric102

lessd said:


> One who does not like to keep track of stuff my purchase All-in so not to miss the automatic one year TiVo renew.


I used a credit card that expires before my one year is up. I'm pretty sure they will notify me


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## lessd

eric102 said:


> I used a credit card that expires before my one year is up. I'm pretty sure they will notify me


My credit card told me that auto charges will continue for about 3 months after the expiration dates changes, this is to give people time to change all the auto charges.


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## portishead

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I kinda dig the shape too, although not so much the white.
> 
> And yes, it's Broadccom's 4K system on a chip (with HEVC decoding for streaming) that's powering the Bolt.
> 
> Too bad if it turns out we won't see the Aereo Edition (OTA) tonight. Wonder if it's axed and they'll just stick with the Roamio OTA? And no Bolt Pro either, just the Roamio Pro being held over. Have to say this is an odd product mix that's emerging...


Like this?
https://www.broadcom.com/products/s...ors/cable-(stb-and-media-processors)/bcm74285

Where are you getting the Broadcom info from?


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## Dan203

portishead said:


> Like this?
> https://www.broadcom.com/products/s...ors/cable-(stb-and-media-processors)/bcm74285
> 
> Where are you getting the Broadcom info from?


http://investor.broadcom.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=870350


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## krkaufman

I thought the BOLT was a "Unified Entertainment System and DVR"? Somebody should have their free BOLT repossessed.


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## b_scott

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually that doesn't really make much sense for them either. If you buy a Bolt for $300, which is probably about how much it costs TiVo to manufacture it, and it includes the first year free, and you only keep it for one year after that, then they aren't really making that much from you. What they want is you buying a box and you paying monthly/yearly for as many years as possible. If each time you upgrade you get a free year of service included, that's a year that you aren't paying for service.


it does not cost Tivo $300 to manufacture that box, LOL. I can build a PC for less than that that I didn't design myself for wholesale costs.

Also why would you buy another box after the second year? they're not a yearly or even every other year released product like the iPhone. Why pay $300 for two years, then $300 again?


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## bradleys

b_scott said:


> it does not cost Tivo $300 to manufacture that box, LOL. I can build a PC for less than that that I didn't design myself for wholesale costs.
> 
> Also why would you buy another box the next year? they're not a yearly released product like the iPhone. Why pay $300, then $300 again?


A lot of moving parts go into the making of a TiVo, on top of that they need to amoritize R&D over the 3 year product lifecycle and all the costs that go into to supporting the software and services.

$300 may not be the fixed hardware chip for chip cost, but add all the other costs into the equation and I will guarantee they are loosing money during that first year.


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## BruceShultes

LightningBOLT said:


> Great post. If I could, I'd wait on upgrading to the Bolt but I'm in a bind because the TivoHD is on the fritz.


If you want more than 1TB of storage, check out http://www.weaknees.com

They appear to have models of the Bolt available with up to 8TB of storage.


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## tarheelblue32

b_scott said:


> it does not cost Tivo $300 to manufacture that box, LOL. I can build a PC for less than that that I didn't design myself for wholesale costs.


Yeah but you aren't having to write the operating system yourself or putting 4K specialty chipsets in. Nor are you having to deal with all the logistics of shipping and handling hundreds of thousands of units. When you factor in everything they had to spend to built it spread out over the number they manufacture, it probably costs them over $300 to build each Bolt.


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## apw2607

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah but you aren't having to write the operating system yourself or putting 4K specialty chipsets in. Nor are you having to deal with all the logistics of shipping and handling hundreds of thousands of units. When you factor in everything they had to spend to built it spread out over the number they manufacture, it probably costs them over $300 to build each Bolt.


+1

Development costs, licensing costs, marketing costs, manufacturing costs, parts costs, labor costs ...

It isn't about slapping together some generic PC parts and hoping for the best.


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## markjrenna

Much of the subscription cost... monthly, annually, or Lifetime goes to pay the guide data provider Gracenotes. That service isn't provided to TiVo for free so they must pass that cost on to us.


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## hytekjosh

markjrenna said:


> Much of the subscription cost... monthly, annually, or Lifetime goes to pay the guide data provider Gracenotes. That service isn't provided to TiVo for free so they must pass that cost on to us.


Guide data costs that much? Any sources to back up?


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## HarperVision

markjrenna said:


> Much of the subscription cost... monthly, annually, or Lifetime goes to pay the guide data provider Gracenotes. That service isn't provided to TiVo for free so they must pass that cost on to us.





hytekjosh said:


> Guide data costs that much? Any sources to back up?


It doesn't.


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## aaronwt

Since when does actual cost have anything to do with how much is charged?


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## markjrenna

So guide data from Gracenotes doesn't cost much?



HarperVision said:


> It doesn't.


I'm sure you are joking.


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## Dan203

They get data from Tribune, not Gracenote. It appears from a quick Google that Tribune bought Gracenote a couple years ago, but TiVo has always been a Tribune customer.


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## Brolan

Guide data can't be a major expense because if it was TiVo would do their own guide data. It's not rocket science.


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## HarperVision

markjrenna said:


> So guide data from Gracenotes doesn't cost much? I'm sure you are joking.


Nope, no joke. Just the guide data part isn't a high cost for TiVo per client. That's not what the majority of their monthly fee is for.


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## JayMan747

trip1eX said:


> They should put HBO, Cinemax, Starz and Showtime in the chart for a good laugh.


They should have apps or ability to stream from their ON Demand library.


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## ncbill

iirc you can still license guide data for every device in your home for $25/year from schedules direct.


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## ej42137

Brolan said:


> Guide data can't be a major expense because if it was TiVo would do their own guide data. It's not rocket science.


Every channel on every cable system and broadcast locality in the USA. Agreements to collect data from every channel without significant exception. If this data were not already available it would have been a significant barrier to entry for TiVo.


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## slowbiscuit

ncbill said:


> iirc you can still license guide data for every device in your home for $25/year from schedules direct.


Only for personal noncommercial use with their approved app list, of course. Mostly open source stuff like MythTV, NextPVR etc.

http://schedulesdirect.org/approvedsoftware


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## b_scott

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yeah but you aren't having to write the operating system yourself or putting 4K specialty chipsets in. Nor are you having to deal with all the logistics of shipping and handling hundreds of thousands of units. When you factor in everything they had to spend to built it spread out over the number they manufacture, it probably costs them over $300 to build each Bolt.


Nope. R+D has to be put into all parts I buy to build a PC too and it's still barely that cost - and the PC I built doesn't also include a monthly charge to recoup R+D costs.


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## ej42137

b_scott said:


> Nope. R+D has to be put into all parts I buy to build a PC too and it's still barely that cost - and the PC I built doesn't also include a monthly charge to recoup R+D costs.


The per unit cost depends upon how many units are sold. PC parts are a commodity, the contribution of R&D overhead to the cost of parts in your PC is minute. Unfortunately, for a TiVo not so much.


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## simrin

I think what I like most about the Skip tech is going to not be when I am in front of the TV that the TiVo is connected to but when I am streaming it to some other box in my house.

Currently I use slingbox vs the mini and fast forwarding on that is guess work at best due to the delay. Would love to be able to bring up the remote and hit the skip button to deal with it.

I understand the lack of the component out, but still sucks as it means I need to split the HDMI out and buy a new slingbox. I don't imagine replacing my 3 firesticks that cost me about 60 bucks in total with mini's.


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## LightningBOLT

Brolan said:


> Guide data can't be a major expense because if it was TiVo would do their own guide data. It's not rocket science.


It's actually a massive undertaking and tivo is not in the business of creating a program guide.


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## LightningBOLT

aaronwt said:


> Since when does actual cost have anything to do with how much is charged?


The smartest companies ignore the cost and price formula and delink the two to create larger margins.


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## HarperVision

LightningBOLT said:


> The smartest companies ignore the cost and price formula and delink the two to create larger margins.


You mean, like Apple?


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