# Who wants to file a class action suit against Tivo?



## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

BUYER BEWARE! S3 Is JUNK

I have a 46 day old S3 Tivo that locks up and freezes constantly.

Tivo refuses to send me a new unit. Will only ship a refurb, and will not cover the cost of shipping.

Any lawyers out their interested in filing a class action suit?

Tivo's policy is assinine. I spent over $1,000 on an S3 with 3 years pf prepaid service and the only remedy they will come up with is to replace my defective unit with a refurb unit and then charge me for the shipping to return the defective unit.

How on earth is this a fair policy?!?!

All I want is fair value for the $1000 I spent. My unit is less than 60 days old and I want a NEW unit not a refurb. Tivo needs to wake up and learn how to provide better customer service. These guys suck!

-angry in boston.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

What wrong with getting a refurb instead of a new unit?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ohhhhh.. 1 person has a defective unit and they're now apparently all junk!

While I feel your pain, do you really think "refurb" in this case means anything other then "was perfectly fine, but the box seal was broken"? and then add in that refurb has gotten a far more thorough technical checkup then any retail unit.

I say exchange it.. the warranty is still the same as the new unit.

Additionally, can you really think this "refurb" is any older then your unit? if anything it has less use then yours. 

Bad units happen, that's why they have warranties... use it, and get a working tested unit back.

Diane


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

Gregor said:


> What wrong with getting a refurb instead of a new unit?


 It's a matter of principle. My unit is only 46 days old. If it were over 90 days I could accept a refurb as a remedy. But considering I have spent well over $1000 on an S3 and 3 years of service. The VERY LEAST they could do is provide me a new S3. The S# was not even shipped with all features enabled or working.

They will not even cover the cost to ship the unit back to them! This is NOT a fair policy!

If you think it is I am surpised. Tivo has officially lost me as a customer. I will NEVER recommend a Tivo, nor will I ever purchase another unit. They screwed me once already with the lifetime transfer and now this. I'm done Tivo! I hope somebody is reviewing this forum. I will go OUT OF MY WAY to bad mouth this company until the day I die. Why? Because its the only thing that will make me sleep well at night. Tivo is the WORST company I have ever worked with when it comes to supporting their product and providing customer sevice. They suck. It is now my life's mission to spread the word on how horrible they are.

Welcome to Tivo... can I have your $1148 please? Thank you. Now here is a piece of crap DVR that barely works and we won't support. Thank you for being a dumbass customer. We thank you for order. Oh you need a replacement for a unit thast less than 60 days old? Sure... here's a refurb that won't fix the problem, and you gotta cover the cost of shipping.

Wow... what a privilege! I get to bend over again! Please Tivo... Please give me the courtesy of a reach around when you screw me again.


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## jfelbab (Jan 18, 2002)

Probably because he bought a *new* unit and not someone else's hopefully repaired box.

You shouldn't also be expected to pay shipping on a defective box that is just a few weeks old.

JMHO

Treat your customers like crap and they will leave you holding it.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> ohhhhh.. 1 person has a defective unit and they're now apparently all junk!
> 
> While I feel your pain, do you really think "refurb" in this case means anything other then "was perfectly fine, but the box seal was broken"? and then add in that refurb has gotten a far more thorough technical checkup then any retail unit.
> 
> ...


:up: well said!


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## missiontortilla (Sep 26, 2006)

Your unit may not be defective. It may be rebooting and freezing based on certain Toxic channels. I would at least wait until 8.1 comes out to see if it fixes the problem. My unit is also suffering from rebooting problems because of the Toxic channel bug. Although I am not happy with TiVo's response to this problem I have not given up yet. I have been assured that 8.1 will fix the problem, additionally I have had the monthly fee for the last two months refunded and they have given me a free S3 replacement remote as compensation for my troubles. Don't give up!


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## doraemon (Sep 18, 2006)

jfelbab said:


> Probably because he bought a *new* unit and not someone else's hopefully repaired box.
> 
> You shouldn't also be expected to pay shipping on a defective box that is just a few weeks old.
> 
> ...


In all fairness, many times when buying stuff online now, the customer is on the hook for return shipping charges for defective merchandise. I've seen this with inexpensive items and pricey electronic gear.

FWIW, my S3 died prematurely (only a week old) and I paid return shipping to send it back to the retailer. The retailer paid shipping for sending the exchange unit back. Thankfully, the exchange unit has been working fine so far.

When I had a S2 die just beyond the 90 day mark, the exchange unit came first (with a prepaid shipping label) so I used its packaging to send back the defective S2. Perhaps ask if advanced-replacement shipping is an option? Disk drive companies frequently offer this.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

You could consult a lawyer regarding suing them under a violation of their warranty of merchantability.

You could also contact your state Attorneys General office and file a complaint against TiVo.

I'd probably start off with a certified letter to TiVo, nicely worded making your case, giving them a reasonable time to respond... a week at most. As you probably paid by credit card, you could also involve your credit card company (and do it soon... within 60-90 days of the statement where this charge appeared).


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

jfelbab said:


> Probably because he bought a *new* unit and not someone else's hopefully repaired box.
> 
> You shouldn't also be expected to pay shipping on a defective box that is just a few weeks old.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately Tivo is not the only company that has this policy. Most electronic manufacturers will send you refurb for the replacement. Some will make you pay for shipping as well. Of course there are good customer oriented companies that will provide free new replacement, but TiVo is not one of them. Never was. From the day one the policy was that you pay for shipping of the defective unit, you get refurb for the exchange, and until few years ago you couldn't even cross-ship.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

dswallow said:


> You could consult a lawyer regarding suing them under a violation of their warranty of merchantability.
> 
> You could also contact your state Attorneys General office and file a complaint against TiVo.
> 
> I'd probably start off with a certified letter to TiVo, nicely worded making your case, giving them a reasonable time to respond... a week at most. As you probably paid by credit card, you could also involve your credit card company (and do it soon... within 60-90 days of the statement where this charge appeared).


That would work if TiVo refused to repair defective unit under terms of the warranty, that most likely states that TiVo reserves the right to either repair or replace the unit with new or refurbished.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

samo said:


> That would work if TiVo refused to repair defective unit under terms of the warranty, that most likely states that TiVo reserves the right to either repair or replace the unit with new or refurbished.


One deciding factor may be if the OP had contacted TiVo during the first 30 days regarding the problems and TiVo's response to it was to have them wait for software updates; an argument could be made they'd be implicitly extending that 30 day trial period.

Anyway, I think a letter usually goes further up the food chain than a phone call complaint so that'd be the best approach to begin the process to get this resolved satisfactorily.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

The only winners in class action lawsuits are the lawyers. They pocket millions of real $$$s and members of the class get things like: a coupon for $10 off on the next TiVo you buy.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Buyer Beware? S3 is Junk? Absolutely wrong. We ought to file a class action law suit against you for deformation of character. My S3 works great, just because you have some type of problem accepting a refurb doesn't mean all S3's are junk.

Another newbie screaming headlines that just arn't true. :down:


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

This is funny. Once upon a time if you had a piece of CE gear go bad under warranty you would have to take it or ship it to an "authorized repair center" where they would "repair or replace it at their option". This process took forever, it was impossible to find out your status, and if they did decide to repair the item you could never really be sure if the problem would actually be fixed or the unit would work when the item was returned.

The current practice of uniformly returning items to a central location where everything is refurbished and sent out as replacements for other returns is a vast improvement over that process in almost every way.

But aside from that here's what Tivo's warranty says on the issue...


> For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).


http://www.tivo.com/2.6.1.3.asp

Nowhere does it hold out any hope that you're going to get new unit under these circumstances. So basically you're proposing to sue Tivo for living up to the warranty as written. What a spoiled brat society we're living in.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Gregor said:


> What wrong with getting a refurb instead of a new unit?


Are you serious?

Really?

Would you like your girlfriend back after a gang bang?

Just curious.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

nrc said:


> What a spoiled brat society we're living in.


It _is_ an $800 MSRP piece of equipment with a service agreement & fee attached. I can't blame people for having expectations.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


Are you an adult? Are you offensive? How can you even make such a comparison?

Just curious.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


What a great guy you must be. :down:


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## jfelbab (Jan 18, 2002)

Or they could have handled it like my recent laptop issue. 

Airborne Express shows up with a heavily padded box and the paperwork. They put it in the box, seal it up give me a copy of the paperwork. Three days later they show up with the repaired unit. 

I guess if you are trained to settle for crap service then go ahead and lap it up.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

First, most refurbs are simply open boxes that were returned. Second, refurbs go through an additional test cycle that new units don't. I've never been uncomfortable with refurb.


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## kosherbacon (Sep 12, 2005)

hookbill said:


> Buyer Beware? S3 is Junk? Absolutely wrong. We ought to file a class action law suit against you for deformation of character. My S3 works great, just because you have some type of problem accepting a refurb doesn't mean all S3's are junk.
> 
> Another newbie screaming headlines that just arn't true. :down:


Hookbill, you are dead on. I agree 1000%, except with your inadventent misspelling--'defamation' not 'deformation'. I don't think that anyone's posts would lead someone to acquire shapeshifting abilities. Thanks for the unexpected laugh!

*defamation*:
the act of defaming; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another, as by slander or libel; calumny: She sued the magazine for defamation of character.

*deformation*
1.	the act of deforming; distortion; disfigurement.
2.	the result of deforming; change of form, esp. for the worse.
3.	an altered form.​
definitions are from http://www.dictionary.com/ .

getting my S3 soon....


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## jeffk (Oct 15, 2002)

Dumb question but what at day 46 did it just start doing this, or was it from day 1?

You have 30 days to return it, why didn't you return it before that time was up?


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## Veriander (Dec 3, 2006)

I can empathize with your feelings, Wangooroo, although my experience with Tivo has been uniformly positive. My S2 and S3 units have both worked like a charm and Tivo services and support have been exemplary. (I am not affiliated with Tivo in any way.) Its just interesting how a company's product and service varies from customer to customer. 

From a technology perspective, I'd like to suggest that you consider connecting your Tivo to a UPS. It's cliche (but true) that often computer problems such as yours are caused by flakey power. And besides, just as you say, the S3 cost big $$. Best to protect it well too - I recommend oversizing the UPS. 

Hope that helps!


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

kosherbacon said:


> Hookbill, you are dead on. I agree 1000%, except with your inadventent misspelling--'defamation' not 'deformation'. I don't think that anyone's posts would lead someone to acquire shapeshifting abilities. Thanks for the unexpected laugh!
> 
> *defamation*:
> the act of defaming; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another, as by slander or libel; calumny: She sued the magazine for defamation of character.
> ...


There's always one of you guys out there who catch me.  I had a big problem with lose and loose for the longest time.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

I am NOT a newbie to Tivo! I have been a dedicated Tivo customer since the original S1 shipped and even had a DirecTivo before they transferred everything to DirecTV.

The S3 was not ready to ship. MAny feature still are not fully implemented. They did not QA it properly or long enough. The product is NOT ready for prime time. At least NOT at the price tag they want for it.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

bidger said:


> It _is_ an $800 MSRP piece of equipment with a service agreement & fee attached. I can't blame people for having expectations.


Maybe people should read the warrenty and get rid of their unrealistic expectations, then.

I can blame people for being idiots and thinking that they are entitled to something that they clearly aren't.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Wangooroo said:


> The S3 was not ready to ship. MAny feature still are not fully implemented. They did not QA it properly or long enough. The product is NOT ready for prime time. At least NOT at the price tag they want for it.


Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Lots of satisfied users. Don't try to pawn your lunacy off on the rest of us.

If you thought that it was too expensive, you shouldn't have bought it.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

It started the problem at day 40.

Prior to that it had few issues, except many features did not work initially. Yahoo/Internet apps could not access the URL. 

Tivo Support could not solve the issue, was not even aware there was an issue, and summarily dismissed me every time I called. Then suddenly after 3 weeks those apps began working. 

I was fine with it until day 40 when it now freezes constantly. And now the Tivo support guy is telling me its an environmental issue. He denies its the Tivo that has the problem. NOTHING in my environment has changed! The S3 is defective.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

I never said it was too expensive! What I am saying is for the price you pay. Which is a premium mind you. We should be getting far better service and support.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Where did you buy it? Have you tried contacting your credit card company or online/B&M retailer? What did your cable company have to say? What have you done to try to remedy the situation except call and complain and post inflammatory nonsense here?

The series 3 was shipped with all features enabled and working in the same way that all previous Tivos were. Just because it has eSata doesn't mean it's enabled. It's there for future expansion. This is common in many, many electronic devices.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Wangooroo said:


> I am NOT a newbie to Tivo!


Well your new to this forum. Look I don't blame you for being upset that the darn thing broke down but I could care less what they do to it so long as they fix it and get it back to me asap.

Further, I think I had the good sense of forsight with a new product and being a new purchaser. Circuit City offered a 3 year extended warranty, and replacement with a new unit is an option. 60.00 bucks. I paid it. Because when you pay for these things you never use them.


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## caddyroger (Mar 15, 2005)

Wangooroo said:


> I am NOT a newbie to Tivo! I have been a dedicated Tivo customer since the original S1 shipped and even had a DirecTivo before they transferred everything to DirecTV.
> 
> The S3 was not ready to ship. MAny feature still are not fully implemented. They did not QA it properly or long enough. The product is NOT ready for prime time. At least NOT at the price tag they want for it.


That's a bunch of crap! i bought my s3 from Fry's the week it came out. I stopped by the Comcast office and picked up 2 cable cards. and went home installed the cards and no issues with it yet. 
Grow up and read the warranty agreement it in black and white.


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## TiVangelist (Aug 28, 2000)

Veriander said:


> From a technology perspective, I'd like to suggest that you consider connecting your Tivo to a UPS. It's cliche (but true) that often computer problems such as yours are caused by flakey power. And besides, just as you say, the S3 cost big $$. Best to protect it well too - I recommend oversizing the UPS.


Amen to that. Our S2 developed hard drive problems (freezing) so we replaced the hard drive (using weaknees - great product!) and got a UPS, and haven't had any trouble since (2 years, I think).


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Where did you buy it? Have you tried contacting your credit card company or online/B&M retailer?


1. The credit card company should do absolutely nothing. He got exactly what he paid for, including the warranty. Just because he didn't like the product or warranty after the fact doesn't mean that the credit card needs to reimburse him.

2. The online/B&M retailer may be able to help. Heck, at some B&M retails, you could have returned it after 40 days with no questions asked (or had the product exchanged).

As for environmental problems, just because it worked yesterday and not today doesn't mean the environment didn't kill it over time. Heat & dust are 2 problems that manifest themselves over time. Spilling a Coke on one will probably leave the product running for a while, but eventually it will eat into something vital and kill it.
Don't say that nothing changed - look at the environmental requirements for the product and truthfully state that you were totally within those requirements the whole time. That will be a much better argument.

Don't say you expect much better service than what they've committed for (via the warranty) because "you've paid a premium". You knew, or could have known, what the warranty was when you bought. You could have a) negotiated or purchased a better warranty from the seller; b) accepted the warranty, or ; c) not bought the product.

Lastly, don't go screaming "class action" over the Internet saying that everybody's unit must suck because you are having problems. You may be the *only* person having problems - you (and I) just don't know. Be polite with the Customer Service folks and you'll get much farther with them. Don't complain about features that aren't there - the feature set has not decreased since you bought it.

Don't forget that the "refurb" may be an open-boxed unit that's been returned (and therefore could be newer than what you're returning), or it could be that that there was a bad drive in an initial shipment that's been replaced. The new drive will have less hours on it than the 40-day old one that you've got.

As for your rude "gang-bang" comment, don't expect to "bang" your girlfriend for 46 days, decide you don't like her because the features you expected weren't there (or she complained being in a hot and dusty room all day while running), and then trade her in for a virgin.


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## FlippedBit (Dec 25, 2001)

I had a hard drive fail under warranty on my S2. I called and they said I had to send it in. It would cost shipping + $150 labor + 4 to 5 weeks, but the HD would be "free" (i.e. buried in the labor charge). I decided to just get a 120GB HD for $100 and fix it myself in one day. A 40 GB HD was selling for < $50 at the time. So TiVo wasn't going to lose a penny on this deal and probably would make a few dollars. 

Technically they were living up to their end of the deal but it still reflects an attitude toward the customer which I find despicable. 

I am enjoying my S3. I bought an extended warranty since my view of TiVo is not quite as rosy as some. 

Besides hardware failure, my biggest concern is that the Audio dropout + video pixilation problem is a design flaw that can't be fixed with a software upgrade. If this is the case, I'm sure TiVo will fix it in future HW releases. However, I suspect that they would not offer their customers any upgrade option. Taking responsibility for their design flaws is not their policy. Instead they stick to the fine print.

With my S3, I know what it is like to have cable card issues (multiple phone calls every day for two weeks, four truck rolls, and Comcast billing disputes), the N18 network error, and Audio dropout/pixilation issues. In each of these cases, TiVo either would not help, could not help, or is avoiding the issue. 

I think that the OP doesn't have a legal option here but I understand where his frustration is coming from. If I were him, I'd wait for 8.1 and then take the referb unit. 

TiVo has done a good job of projecting a cool company image. Unfortunately, and in MHO, they have made many many bad decisions which have prevented them from being profitable. This lack of profitability probably prevents them from being more generous and competent on the customer service side


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Wangooroo said:


> I will go OUT OF MY WAY to bad mouth this company until the day I die. Why? Because its the only thing that will make me sleep well at night.


Wow...do you realize how crazy that comes off? You weren't sleeping well because of your Tivo? That's sad.

The warranty is pretty clearly spelled out as posted above.

I don't see what you have suffered to warrant a law suit. This will only make the lawyers rich.


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## Styx (Jul 7, 2004)

You are unfortunate for more than one reason...

First, I have (4) TiVo series 2 units, two of which I have had since their inception. Never had a problem and I have now had my Series 3 without as much as a hiccup. I got it the week they were released, direct from TiVo. Again, no issues. You unfortunately receiver a defective unit. It happens to everyone sooner or later (especially with high production electronics). I would have first taken it back to where I got it from, before going back to TiVo.

Secondly, it seems you suffer from immaturity and if you are an adult, it looks as though you are probably stuck with this plague.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Just because the warranty says something doesn't mean it's necessarily true or applicable. In many cases, state laws trump clauses spelled out in manufacturer warranties; you need to become familiar with any such things that are applicable in your state to really know what you're entitled to under warranty.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

ewilts said:


> 1. The credit card company should do absolutely nothing. He got exactly what he paid for, including the warranty. Just because he didn't like the product or warranty after the fact doesn't mean that the credit card needs to reimburse him.


The credit card could allow him to dispute the charge. They have forms for it, and one of the "reasons" is because of defective merchandise with inadequate response received when attempting to return.



> Don't say you expect much better service than what they've committed for (via the warranty) because "you've paid a premium". You knew, or could have known, what the warranty was when you bought. You could have a) negotiated or purchased a better warranty from the seller; b) accepted the warranty, or ; c) not bought the product.


Warranty or not, when you pay a premium for something, you expect quality service to back it up. I don't think that is unreasonable, regardless of what a warranty says.



> As for your rude "gang-bang" comment, don't expect to "bang" your girlfriend for 46 days, decide you don't like her because the features you expected weren't there (or she complained being in a hot and dusty room all day while running), and then trade her in for a virgin.


It wasn't his comment, it was someone else's comment.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

[smeek]
I want in! I've had it with TiVo.

Despite years of complaining, they refuse to add the Laundry feature. My dirty clothes keep piling up. Dang it.

Send me contact information for your legal representation ... I'm in!


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

NJChris said:


> I don't see what you have suffered to warrant a law suit. This will only make the lawyers rich.


Hey, now ... don't go insulting the lawyers, please

... without inviting me to the party first


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

I want to file class action lawsuits against people who want to file class action lawsuits.


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## Sy- (Sep 29, 2005)

I don't see what the problem is with getting a refurb unit. You bought your unit "day-one" so any refurb unit Tivo sends you will be newer than the one that you are returning to them.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If in the OP's opinion the original product was rushed out, wouldn't a refurbished unit be even safer than a new one? Either the refurbished unit is basically brand new, and was just a return, or there was something wrong with it, that they went through and fixed.

A refurbished unit probably wasn't rushed to get ready, so maybe it has an even better chance of working fine.

-smak-


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## w2jo (Jun 29, 2003)

UNfortunately, ALL electronic equipment is still subject to failure.  WHEN it happens is the only question. Some happens sooner, some happens later and the failure profiles can be calculated pretty well.

What we cannot figure exactly is "expectations". Personally, I expect that the store where I bought an equipment will, for 30 days after purchase, exchange for a new unit. After 30 days, to the end of the warranty, I expect the manufacturer to either repair it or BETTER YET, exchange it for another (refurbed/repaired) unit. Do I expect to pay shipping one way? You betcha. Not one vendor that I know of pays for shipping equipment back for repair. About all of them return the equipment prepaid. That is about the "norm". 

I suspect if you check the Tivo warranty, it will tell their warranty policy in detail. I would expect them to adhere to their published policy. I have not heard anyone say that they do not.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

w2jo said:


> Not one vendor that I know of pays for shipping equipment back for repair. About all of them return the equipment prepaid.


DirecTV.

Every hard disk manufacturer.

I'm sure there's more; those are just from personal experience and off the top of my head.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

IIRC when Isent my Maxtor Quickview Expander in for exchange I had to pay to ship it to them. They paid return cost.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> The credit card could allow him to dispute the charge. They have forms for it, and one of the "reasons" is because of defective merchandise with inadequate response received when attempting to return.


Tivo's response wasn't "inadequate". It was exactly what the warranty said they would do. You're still welcome to dispute, but you're going to lose.



> Warranty or not, when you pay a premium for something, you expect quality service to back it up. I don't think that is unreasonable, regardless of what a warranty says.


What? You expect the price you paid for something to define the type of service provided under a warranty, not the terms and conditions that define the warranty??? That's the most ridiculous thing that I've heard all day, and it's been a pretty crazy day...


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Every hard disk manufacturer.


No, the consumer has to pay for the shipping back to the manufacturer. Maxtor, Seagate, Western Digital, Hitachi, etc.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I paid for return shipping to maxtor but western digital paid for shipping.

Dell always pays for shipping, at least they did several years back.

Crucial (memory people) paid for shipping.


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## Sy- (Sep 29, 2005)

Actually when my tape drive recently failed HP sent me a replacement and a ups return label to stick on the box after I replace the drive. So there are manufacturers that cover the shipping costs.


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## Geist420 (Dec 4, 2006)

Do any of you realize that whenever you send a defective unit in (anywhere) you almost ALWAYS get a refurb. Computer companies do this all the time... Dell, HP, you name it. All the parts they use are refurb.



CTLesq said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


funny... Not even close to the same thing, but funny. (To equalize the issue, you'd get a new girlfriend back that looks and acts the same....)

Of course, Tivo SHOULD cover the cost of shipping if it's under warranty.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> I paid for return shipping to maxtor but western digital paid for shipping.


I've had RMA's to both many times in the past and was shocked last month when WD wanted me to pay for return shipping! Never had to do that before to either one.

My class action suit is still pending.


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## Veriander (Dec 3, 2006)

Let's give Wangooroo a little break here OK? I've lost my cool over customer service issues and I've made some ill-advised comments that I later regretted. How about you? 

But hey, if the object is to beat the hell out of this guy instead of offering some empathy, and maybe a solution he hasn't considered, whale away!!


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Veriander said:


> Let's give Wangooroo a little break here OK? I've lost my cool over customer service issues and I've made some ill-advised comments that I later regretted.


This is not a customer service issue. This is a customer issue.


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## Veriander (Dec 3, 2006)

c3 said:


> This is not a customer service issue. This is a customer issue.


As I said, whale away! I just don't see how that approach helps Tivo or the Tivo community.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

FWIW, I have 4 TiVo units as well - including a Series 3 purchased the day it was released.

The Series 3 is the pride of my fleet. No complaints here.

One of my S2 boxes (about a year old) had taken to locking up - trying to reboot and freezing on the loading screen. I had a spare 250GB hard drive hanging around the house. Popped the hard drive into a spare PC, ran Instant Cake software on it, popped open the freezing TiVo and replaced the hard drive. Took me less than an hour - with a cup of coffee. That S2 box is back in business.

Having said that, sometimes it's easier to solve your own problem. Requires a wee bit of technical skill, but it is an option.

And, FWIW, I bought the S3 at Circuit City (as another poster said) with the extended 3 year warranty. If the thing dies, I just take it back to Circuit City and let them worry about it. Sometimes, an extended warranty DOES make sense with an expensive piece of early-adopter technology.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

c3 said:


> This is not a customer service issue. This is a customer issue.


It's both. He has a right to be upset that he paid $800 for a DVR that does not function properly. And he has a right to be upset that Tivo is not bending over backwards to keep him as a customer. If I were in his situation and couldn't for some reason return to the retailer or dispute the charge, I would be equally frustrated at having to pay return shipping to get a refurbished unit. I don't care if it's in the warranty or not, I would expect it after paying that much to the supposedly premiere DVR vendor. Think of the inconvenience of spending weeks trying to get a working product. They should at least offer him compensation in the form of free service for a period of time or similar.

However, his reaction is obviously a bit much. It's one thing to come here and complain that he doesn't feel like Tivo is treating him as he would expect after purchasing a unit that is quite expensive and clearly defective. It's another to say the product and company are hopeless and ought to be sued.


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## MitchW (Jun 5, 2002)

Wangooroo said:


> BUYER BEWARE! S3 Is JUNK
> 
> I have a 46 day old S3 Tivo that locks up and freezes constantly.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you had a problem. I had an S2 with Lifetime Warranty which I retired to my crawl space until S4 comes out which will support Video On Demand and Pay Per View. I am using two Scientific Atlanta 8300's and their picture quality is EXCELLENT on my two Sony 32" HD TV's. I only pay $ 11 per month for each, well under the $ 1,000 cost of JUST one S3.

There are many features on the SA8300 which are NOT on the S2 such as being able to watch a picture while I search for new programs to watch. It has a PIP function not available on the S2 yet.

I am fully satisfied with my decision.

When TiVo's HD unit finally meets my requirements, I will upgrade IF competing DVR's do not offer better solutions at lower prices.

However, if you have a problem, why not just return it to Best Buy or Circuit City or wherever you purchased the unit. I always take a 4 year warranty when buying from them. Also, when paying with a credit card, you always have an option to call them and they will get your money back. I use Visa and many times they have gotten my money back if I had problems with products purchased where the vendor would not compromise.

Finally, I have always been FULLY SATISFIED with TiVo service. When my S1 caused problems with my sound on two TV's, someone from TiVo shipped me an S2 to replace the S1 and transferred my lifetime warranty to it.

Maybe you should first try to contact one of the Tivo representatives here and see what he can do for you. Complaining and threatening TiVo makes NO SENSE at all. You will just turn them off that way.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Wangooroo said:


> I was fine with it until day 40 when it now freezes constantly. And now the Tivo support guy is telling me its an environmental issue. He denies its the Tivo that has the problem. NOTHING in my environment has changed! The S3 is defective.


Are you using the TiVo wireless adapter? Do you have Macs on your network or windows apps that use the Bonjour/Rendezvous protocol (like some chat clients)? If so, try disconnecting it from the network for a day or two and see if that helps. If not, send it back and take the replacement unit. Refurbs aren't used units, they're just open boxes or DOA units that have gone back to the factory and been re-certified.

It is unfortunate that the unit broke so early in its expected life, but it happens. Should I tell you some stories about my experiences with car dealers, or do you just want to accept that bad things sometimes happen and the consumer gets stuck footing the bill? In this case you are going to be out $10 for shipping the thing back to TiVo. Bummer? Yes. Unfair? Maybe. But you've got an $800 box that can give you years of enjoyment, so it's probably worth that $10.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> It's both. He has a right to be upset that he paid $800 for a DVR that does not function properly. And he has a right to be upset that Tivo is not bending over backwards to keep him as a customer. If I were in his situation and couldn't for some reason return to the retailer or dispute the charge, I would be equally frustrated at having to pay return shipping to get a refurbished unit. I don't care if it's in the warranty or not, I would expect it after paying that much to the supposedly premiere DVR vendor. Think of the inconvenience of spending weeks trying to get a working product. They should at least offer him compensation in the form of free service for a period of time or similar.


I'm shopping for a HDTV, which costs more than the S3. I can save quite a bit by buying online, but many places have no return/no exchange policy on large TVs. If something is wrong with the TV, I'll have to go through the manufacturer who would fix or replace it with a refurbished unit. If I do decide to take this risk and something bad happens, I deal with it. I accept the terms and risks if I make the purchase. I don't go file credit card chargebacks and class action lawsuits.


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## brentley (Nov 19, 1999)

c3 said:


> I'm shopping for a HDTV, which costs more than the S3. I can save quite a bit by buying online, but many places have no return/no exchange policy on large TVs. If something is wrong with the TV, I'll have to go through the manufacturer who would fix or replace it with a refurbished unit.


I had a friend who just went through the whole TV online thing, after waiting a couple of weeks for the trucking company to deliver his plasma he got it as a pile of glass inside a box. There was apparently (he didn't think to take photos) a hole in the box that looked like a forklift fork where the TV was destroyed. He refused delivery and got a full refund, and is waiting to purchase another TV.

On the good side, my 16 month old dell laptop had the enter key fall off and Dell shipped me a "refurb" keyboard at their expense and all the tools I needed to replace it myself. The refurb was perfect, even had a brand new pointing stick cover.

I think a class action is a bit of an over reaction.


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## c-surfer (Jul 25, 2001)

I have a series 1 and got stuck with a refurbished unit when I had to send it in for a warranty repair many years ago. After all these years, I still think Tivo should have repaired and returned my practically new unit rather than somebody else's used Tivo. The refurbished unit was filled with dust and cat hair.

Too bad your Tivo box failed outside of the 30 day window when some retailers will do an exchange. The way customers should be treated:

I had 1 dead pixel on my last Samsung flat screen monitor purchased. Well, I purchased it from Tiger Direct and they were super to deal with--the "Nordstroms" of computer stuff. They provided a prepaid return shipping label for the defective monitor and shipped out a replacement as soon as I called.

For $800 a unit, Tivo should be providing "Nordstroms" like customer service for the Series 3 customers.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

c-surfer said:


> I have a series 1 and got stuck with a refurbished unit when I had to send it in for a warranty repair many years ago. After all these years, I still think Tivo should have repaired and returned my practically new unit rather than somebody else's used Tivo. The refurbished unit was filled with dust and cat hair.


I think that's the problem. There've been too many such stories for anyone to believe a "refurb" is "safe" or in some cases even tested. If you find piles of dust and cat hair inside a box, do you truly think that box was even inspected by the manufacturer? If "refurb" actually meant there was a guarantee the manufacturer looked at, fully tested and ensured everything looked as good as if it were brand new, which is what it's supposed to mean, then people wouldn't have as big an issue with being told their newly purchased but broken unit is being replaced with a refurb.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

dswallow said:


> I think that's the problem. There've been too many such stories for anyone to believe a "refurb" is "safe" or in some cases even tested. If you find piles of dust and cat hair inside a box, do you truly think that box was even inspected by the manufacturer? If "refurb" actually meant there was a guarantee the manufacturer looked at, fully tested and ensured everything looked as good as if it were brand new, which is what it's supposed to mean, then people wouldn't have as big an issue with being told their newly purchased but broken unit is being replaced with a refurb.


+1


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

c3 said:


> I'm shopping for a HDTV, which costs more than the S3. I can save quite a bit by buying online, but many places have no return/no exchange policy on large TVs. If something is wrong with the TV, I'll have to go through the manufacturer who would fix or replace it with a refurbished unit. If I do decide to take this risk and something bad happens, I deal with it. I accept the terms and risks if I make the purchase. I don't go file credit card chargebacks and class action lawsuits.


Then you are a sucker. There's no other way to describe it. You have a credit card with implicit warranties on things. You have a legally required warranty on the item. No return/No exchange does not imply "if it's broke, it ain't our problem" it implies that if you don't like it and it is working, you can't return or exchange it. No retailer can refuse a return on a defective product. I'm fairly certain that's the law in all states, certainly in most states.


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## jfelbab (Jan 18, 2002)

dswallow said:


> I think that's the problem. There've been too many such stories for anyone to believe a "refurb" is "safe" or in some cases even tested. If you find piles of dust and cat hair inside a box, do you truly think that box was even inspected by the manufacturer? If "refurb" actually meant there was a guarantee the manufacturer looked at, fully tested and ensured everything looked as good as if it were brand new, which is what it's supposed to mean, then people wouldn't have as big an issue with being told their newly purchased but broken unit is being replaced with a refurb.


Spot on, Doug.

I used to support a group of designers that liked to buy computer refurbs. They found out that the refurbs were not just open box items but rather they were someone else's problems. The computers were rife with quirky issues and these guys had only 90 days to find them and get them repaired. I steer clear of refurbs as my experience leaves me no other choice.


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

dswallow said:


> You could consult a lawyer regarding suing them under a violation of their warranty of merchantability.
> 
> You could also contact your state Attorneys General office and file a complaint against TiVo.
> 
> I'd probably start off with a certified letter to TiVo, nicely worded making your case, giving them a reasonable time to respond... a week at most. As you probably paid by credit card, you could also involve your credit card company (and do it soon... within 60-90 days of the statement where this charge appeared).


Particularly if you used certain kinds of American Express cards, they have a customer satisfaction for merchandise guarantee protection for cases like this.

And I will admit that I took a pretty draconian action with Sears years ago when I bought a big screen TV. I bought the floor model but when delivered didn't come with the remote. They promised to ship it within a few days. After 2 weeks and 3 phone calls, I pulled the plug and made them take the TV back and bring a new one. They did.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Wangooroo said:


> ...
> MAny feature still are not fully implemented.
> ...


What feature that they said was fully implemented on the S3 was not fully implemented?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

As for the quality of refurb units, if you have to return something to a big box store, you ususally have to force on them what the problem was and even then they may not write it down.


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## Veriander (Dec 3, 2006)

vstone said:


> What feature that they said was fully implemented on the S3 was not fully implemented?


It would be fair to say that the S3 software is lacking a couple of features found or the S2. I miss the S2's "ba-beep, ba-beep, ba-beep" sound effect when pressing the fast-forward button. And the "recently deleted" folder, too.

Having said that I know that the S3 feature set will catch up and nodoubt surpass the S2 as it becomes the standard.


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

Wangooroo said:


> BUYER BEWARE! S3 Is JUNK
> 
> I have a 46 day old S3 Tivo that locks up and freezes constantly.
> 
> ...


Tivo is fulfilling their warranty requirements. The warranty says:

_WHAT IS COVERED?
TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices. TiVo warrants that the DVR will be free from defects in materials and workmanship during the limited warranty period described herein. The limited warranty coverage begins the day you purchase the product as further described in the following text. For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any). Contact Customer Support at the phone number found in the "Troubleshooting" chapter of the Installation Guide to obtain your cost (labor costs) for exchange._

Why should TIVO charge everybody more to furnish brand new units to anyone with a problem? It would drive up the cost of an already expensive device.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Veriander said:


> It would be fair to say that the S3 software is lacking a couple of features found or the S2. I miss the S2's "ba-beep, ba-beep, ba-beep" sound effect when pressing the fast-forward button. And the "recently deleted" folder, too.
> 
> Having said that I know that the S3 feature set will catch up and nodoubt surpass the S2 as it becomes the standard.


The TiVo sounds cannot be mixed with digital sound associated with digitally tuned channels. Never going to happen.

Some leaks made it obvious the Recently deleted folder will show up in a future version.

In any case, neither of these two is listed as an available feature on the box/website that you can claim TiVo reneged on providing.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Veriander said:


> It would be fair to say that the S3 software is lacking a couple of features found or the S2.
> ...


 Yes it would be fair, but wouldn't answer the question. What feature(s) listed on the box or mentioned in the manual are not fully implemented?

Wangooroo is saying that it shouldn't have been shipped because (among other reasons) features are not fully implemented. Replacement products are often shipped without all of the features of their predecessor product, for reasons good and bad. Using his logic, the S3 may not have shipped until much later, or conceiveably never, due to recalcitrance by CableLabs or due to missing a market window.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Yeah ... does the new 2007 Corvette have the rear set leg room or towing capacity of the 2005 GM Envoy? Noooo! Good points vstone


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

vstone said:


> What feature that they said was fully implemented on the S3 was not fully implemented?


 The Internet apps for Movie trailers, purchasing tickets, and yahoo weather etc. None of these worked the first three weeks I had the unit. They have since been fixed.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Wangooroo said:


> The Internet apps for Movie trailers, purchasing tickets, and yahoo weather etc. None of these worked the first three weeks I had the unit. They have since been fixed.


Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

ashu said:


> Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!


There was a software update, though.

Anyway there's a difference between a bug that affects some people and an advertised feature not being implemented at all. One is fraud, the other isn't.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Wangooroo said:


> The Internet apps for Movie trailers, purchasing tickets, and yahoo weather etc. None of these worked the first three weeks I had the unit. They have since been fixed.


My goodness, you're right. We should sue because you had to wait a whopping 3 weeks to be able to buy movie tickets via your S3. The monetary damages should be extraordinary given your level of pain, suffering, and mental anguish.

FYI - I believe Tivo already said at some point on this board that there was a glitch they had to fix to get the features running perfectly.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

OK. I had no idea it didn't work for the first few days, so OP has a point. But a Class Action lawsuit? 

I bought mine around 45+ days after it was released, and it auto-updated to the new version the night I plugged it in, so I didn't notice the non-working movie tickets!


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

The fabulous buy your movie tickets here program won't buy tickets in my little burg anyway, but I'm really mad about those missing movie trailers.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Who the hell still goes to movies? It cost an arm and a leg. And some of you guys are complaining about buying batteries for the remote on another thread.

Geesh!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> My goodness, you're right. We should sue because you had to wait a whopping 3 weeks to be able to buy movie tickets via your S3. The monetary damages should be extraordinary given your level of pain, suffering, and mental anguish.
> 
> FYI - I believe Tivo already said at some point on this board that there was a glitch they had to fix to get the features running perfectly.


I was attempting to say the opposite. A feature that is there but isn't functioning properly due to a bug is not fraud. And it's generally acceptable, if annoying. But if they advertised a feature that wasn't present at all, and would have to be implemented in the future, that would probably be fraud. Or whatever the legal term is. False advertising?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

hookbill said:


> Who the hell still goes to movies? It cost an arm and a leg. And some of you guys are complaining about buying batteries for the remote on another thread.
> 
> Geesh!


I go to movies once in a while. I live 1 door down from an artsy theater, though. And it's only $6 or so. The video store a block away is $4.50 though, still cheaper, but really far away in comparison.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Then you are a sucker.


No, I'm not. I just don't buy from such places. I read the return policies *before* I make the purchase.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> I was attempting to say the opposite. A feature that is there but isn't functioning properly due to a bug is not fraud. And it's generally acceptable, if annoying. But if they advertised a feature that wasn't present at all, and would have to be implemented in the future, that would probably be fraud. Or whatever the legal term is. False advertising?


Actually, I responded to the wrong post. Sorry, TAsunder. I've fixed my original post to reference the OP.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

c3 said:


> No, I'm not. I just don't buy from such places. I read the return policies *before* I make the purchase.


But you could be buying from them secure in the knowledge they can't legally refuse a return if it's defective. You are just dead wrong on this one. No one can sell you a defective product. Even "as is" implies working unless it is clearly spelled out that it won't work. Otherwise a company could sell ONLY defective units and never have to refund money.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

hookbill said:


> Who the hell still goes to movies? It cost an arm and a leg. And some of you guys are complaining about buying batteries for the remote on another thread.
> 
> Geesh!


$5 at AMC for shows before noon. $7.50 for shows before 6pm. I've been to over 20 movies this year with my girlfriend. We will see six to eight more before the end of the year. some of the bset movies come out in December. 
I don't have the S3 yet but have 3 DirecTv HDiVos. I keep flipflopping about getting the S3 models and going to cable. But I would have no problem getting a refurbished unit as a replacement. The refurb units have gone through more checks before being sent back out.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

vstone said:


> What a great guy you must be. :down:


The outrageousness of my comment speaks for itself. I don't defend it because it was never meant to be defended

The idea, however that someone would accept someone else's refurbished unit from TiVo after spending 1K on a brand new unit is ridiculous.

The idea that ANYONE would accept such a compromise is as ludicrous as the idea that because one person had a bad TiVo experience that we should all join a class action against TiVo is patently ridiculous.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> The idea, however that someone would accept someone else's refurbished unit from TiVo after spending 1K on a brand new unit is ridiculous.


I would accept it. I think a lot of people would, given that that's the way most warranty repairs are handled. Guess that makes me and lots of other people ridiculous. :up:

Seriously, if the unit was in phsyically the same condition and fully functional, why does it matter whether they've repaired my unit and returned it to me or repaired someone else's and returned it to me or sent me an "open-box" new unit?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> I would accept it. I think a lot of people would, given that that's the way most warranty repairs are handled. Guess that makes me and lots of other people ridiculous. :up:
> 
> Seriously, if the unit was in phsyically the same condition and fully functional, why does it matter whether they've repaired my unit and returned it to me or repaired someone else's and returned it to me or sent me an "open-box" new unit?


Because it isn't the same and given the price associated with these types of devices I cannot fathom how anyone could accept it. You are accepting someone else's problem unit. That the problem may or may not have been solved is irrelevant.

If TiVo wants to give me a rebate for accepting a refurbed unit and I have the option to decline both the rebate and the refurb unit that is fine. Short of that, it is not acceptable to me. An excellent comparison would be used video games. I can buy those at a discount and have the choice to decline that option if I so choose.

When I paid 800 for my TiVo I paid for a new TiVo, not a gently broken in unit. That my TiVo then craps out - I only see three acceptable options. (1) Fix my unit; or (2) replace my unit with a new unit; (3) offer me a refurb at a discount with the option to decline and revert to option 1 or 2.

Anything short of that leaves me with something other than what I anticipated my 800 was giving me in the first place, compounded by the fact the OP's problem happened for all intents and purposes almost instantly after he recieved it (as I recall the original post, without reviewing it) is simply not acceptable.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Would you rather get a refurb in 2 days or a repaired unit in 2 weeks ot 2 months?

Like it or not, market economics has moved on.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Suppose the threadstarter opted to take a refurb. Would the warranty period renew when he signs for it or is the clock still ticking?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

bidger said:


> Suppose the threadstarter opted to take a refurb. Would the warranty period renew when he signs for it or is the clock still ticking?


The clock never stops, except when operated by the most generous, profit-hating businesses.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

vstone said:


> Would you rather get a refurb in 2 days or a repaired unit in 2 weeks ot 2 months?
> 
> Like it or not, market economics has moved on.


And the market may also dictate that I will return that unit to the original seller and buy it somewhere else.

It works both ways.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> The outrageousness of my comment speaks for itself. I don't defend it because it was never meant to be defended


No. It shows that you are an immature individual who doesn't know how to carry on an intelligent conversation. And the fact that you are posting about it again is defending it.

Your comment was not only gross, I found it offensive.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> And the market may also dictate that I will return that unit to the original seller and buy it somewhere else.
> 
> It works both ways.


Have a ball!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

hookbill said:


> No. It shows that you are an immature individual who doesn't know how to carry on an intelligent conversation. And the fact that you are posting about it again is defending it.
> 
> Your comment was not only gross, I found it offensive.


Also, it was illogical. Unless he only dates virgins.


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## Barryrod (Mar 17, 2006)

For all you folks that think a referb is "just as good".....Suppose you buy a brand new car....within 45 days your motor siezes up due to no fault of your own. Would you want them to put in a brand new motor or would you accept a rebuilt motor??? Tough choice huh.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Also, it was illogical. Unless he only dates virgins.


Assuming he dates!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

vstone said:


> Assuming he dates!


Good point. Maybe it was all hypothetical.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> No. It shows that you are an immature individual who doesn't know how to carry on an intelligent conversation. And the fact that you are posting about it again is defending it.
> 
> Your comment was not only gross, I found it offensive.


Yawn.

"The outrageousness of my comment speaks for itself. I don't defend it because it was never meant to be defended."

Then block me. Or are you looking to be outraged?

The fact of the matter is my arguments have moved well past that statement of hyperbole, whereas you are still stuck on it.

Its the internet. Move on.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Barryrod said:


> For all you folks that think a referb is "just as good".....Suppose you buy a brand new car....within 45 days your motor siezes up due to no fault of your own. Would you want them to put in a brand new motor or would you accept a rebuilt motor??? Tough choice huh.


Are you comparing wear and tear on an internal combustion engine with that of a CPU? There's probably an analogy that will make your case, but I'm not sure that this is the one. Some other analogy in the field of consumer electronics might do better. Different markets, different laws, etc.

If you buy a CRT TV and the picture tube goes bad after 45 days, will you get a new TV or a new TV tube?. Nope, that doesn't work either. You're on your own here.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> Because it isn't the same and given the price associated with these types of devices I cannot fathom how anyone could accept it. You are accepting someone else's problem unit. That the problem may or may not have been solved is irrelevant.


Let's use the car analogy! If you return a lemon for a new car, is a car that had a flat tire, but was fixed, acceptable? Is a car that had the CD player replaced OK. We've established that a car with a blown engine wouldn't qualify.

OK, OK, just trying to lighten mood around here. Sorry!


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> Yawn.
> 
> "The outrageousness of my comment speaks for itself. I don't defend it because it was never meant to be defended."
> 
> ...


I've often said things that I thought were clever, only to be shown the error of my ways as they were over the line. This time it was your turn.

Taken as a unit, the bill of rights asserts our rights to be jerks. Congratulations on exercizing your rights.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

vstone said:


> Let's use the car analogy! If you return a lemon for a new car, is a car that had a flat tire, but was fixed, acceptable? Is a car that had the CD player replaced OK. We've established that a car with a blown engine wouldn't qualify.
> 
> OK, OK, just trying to lighten mood around here. Sorry!


I don't know that the car example is a good one. Cars can do many things. A TiVo really only does one - record programs. I also think the price difference between an automobile and a TiVo also makes it a tough analogy.

Its not really one I would make. But, if I bought the Mac I am on now from Apple and I had severe problems with it - I would fully expect them to fix it or replace it with a new one. Replacing my unit from a with a refurbed just isn't the same. Refurbed units exist as a secondary market and are sold at a discount. You play less for them precisely because the seller values them as less.

Why should I pay full retail and accept less?

Edit: "I've often said things that I thought were clever, only to be shown the error of my ways as they were over the line. This time it was your turn."

I never said I was being clever. As I said before I don't defend the statement - it wasn't meant to be defended. It was outrageous for the sake of being outrageous. I have made comments like that before on these forums and bad news for all of you - I will continue to do so.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

vstone said:


> Let's use the car analogy! If you return a lemon for a new car, is a car that had a flat tire, but was fixed, acceptable? Is a car that had the CD player replaced OK. We've established that a car with a blown engine wouldn't qualify.
> 
> OK, OK, just trying to lighten mood around here. Sorry!


It's illegal to sell a car whose title was transferred to someone else already as new even if it was never driven once; so any car returned to a dealer for any reason would be sold as a used car. There's generally the same sort of protection for regular consumer purchases, too.

If it's that important that a new purchase truly be new; is it too much to expect that within some initial period of time after purchase, consumers expect and deserve a new, working product, not a refurbished unit, if it must be replaced?

If you took your car in to have a flat tire replaced, would you be satisfied with receiving a refurbished car in return instead of your car with the tire replaced?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> Yawn.
> 
> "The outrageousness of my comment speaks for itself. I don't defend it because it was never meant to be defended."
> 
> ...


Wow. You've become a legend in your own mind. By all means, lets ignore you and move on.


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## Barryrod (Mar 17, 2006)

dswallow said:


> It's illegal to sell a car whose title was transferred to someone else already as new even if it was never driven once; so any car returned to a dealer for any reason would be sold as a used car. There's generally the same sort of protection for regular consumer purchases, too.
> 
> If it's that important that a new purchase truly be new; is it too much to expect that within some initial period of time after purchase, consumers expect and deserve a new, working product, not a refurbished unit, if it must be replaced?
> 
> If you took your car in to have a flat tire replaced, would you be satisfied with receiving a refurbished car in return instead of your car with the tire replaced?


Maybe my blown engine analogy was a little off but Doug's response here turned on a bulb in my head....

Suppose you buy 4 brand new high end high performance tires for your car....within 45 days one completely seperates due to manufacturer defect. Would you want a new tire, or a re-tread.

You paid full price for new tires and through no fault of yours the tire was unusable. Re-treads are cheaper for a reason. Would you compromise????


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Barryrod said:


> Maybe my blown engine analogy was a little off but Doug's response here turned on a bulb in my head....
> 
> Suppose you buy 4 brand new high end high performance tires for your car....within 45 days one completely seperates due to manufacturer defect. Would you want a new tire, or a re-tread.
> 
> You paid full price for new tires and through no fault of yours the tire was unusable. Re-treads are cheaper for a reason. Would you compromise????


No, but that is because there is a physical difference between retreads and new tires. Not so between new and refurbished electronics.

I'm willing to bet that most of complaining about a refurb would be completely unable to tell the difference in between the two if you had them sitting next to one another on a workbench.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> No, but that is because there is a physical difference between retreads and new tires. Not so between new and refurbished electronics.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that most of complaining about a refurb would be completely unable to tell the difference in between the two if you had them sitting next to one another on a workbench.


Its not about being able to tell the difference - and I am sure you are right.

When I buy something new - that is what I buy. And should that item fail within a reasonable period of time - I expect to be made whole again.

In my world being whole means not being given something that the same seller would sell for less, it means getting back the same new product or my old product which is fixed.

Its an issue of principle. I didn't buy something refurbed. I bought something new.

Can you objectively tell me why I should accept less? Keep in mind - that retailer will sell a refurbed unit for less than a new unit. So why should I pay full price because their product failed on me?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> Can you objectively tell me why I should accept less? Keep in mind - that retailer will sell a refurbed unit for less than a new unit. So why should I pay full price because their product failed on me?


Because the warranty which you bought it under specified that you'd get a refurb. If you don't like the possibility of getting a refurb, don't buy the product.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

SeanC said:


> Because the warranty which you bought it under specified that you'd get a refurb. If you don't like the possibility of getting a refurb, don't buy the product.


That is an entirely different point. If I were to contract that right away that would be one thing. Is that the case with the S3?


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## drowe (Nov 4, 2006)

From reading this thread, it strikes me that there are two different arguments here, and that may be why neither are coming together. In fact, I think both are correct (for some value of correct).

1. the warranty defines what the company will do

This argument is 100% correct. There it is in black and white.

2. The company should do more given the proximity of the 30 day cut off and the customers high expectation of service

I agree that, while the unit is 16 days past the defined 'swap for new' period, the company should make an exception. I don't believe the OP's request for a new unit is unreasonable in this case. I further believe that the company hurts itself by leaving this customer feeling less than delighted. If there really is so little difference between new and refurb, toss out a new one.

Therefore, I find that this argument is also 100% correct.

It's true that the warranty spells out the company's minimum obligations, but there will always be exceptions. While I don't support the OP's overboard approach here in the forums, I do support the underlying need for exceptional customer service.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Well... the heater in my house... a much larger investment than a TiVo... had a bad circuit board in it. An issue the manufacturer KNEW existed and KNEW could blow at any time (as admited to me by the repair rep). When I got a rep out to fix it, I was still charged for his labor, though not for the part.

Why? Because that's how the warranty works. In fact, that's how the warranties on most high-dollar purchases work.

Anyone who expects warranties to work any differently than this are simply deluding themselves, and in the case of TiVo s3 and it's current rash of issues, I'd rather have a refurb anyways because a refurb has been fixed whereas the new one is likely to have the same issues as the old.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

drowe said:


> 2. The company should do more given the proximity of the 30 day cut off and the customers high expectation of service
> 
> I agree that, while the unit is 16 days past the defined 'swap for new' period, the company should make an exception.


So what should be the cut off date? 47 days, 48 days, etc.?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

A great analogy is the cell phone market.
I get a top of the line new shiny phone when I reup my contract (some can be near Tivo costs)

If my phone craps out, dies, and fails, they don't send me a new one, even 14 days in, they don't send a new one.

They send a "refurb" and refub is not "someone has used and abused it" very often.. It's "we can't sell it as new because the seal is opened, and may even have just went through additional testing.


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## Veriander (Dec 3, 2006)

ashu said:


> ...neither of these two is listed as an available feature on the box/website that you can claim TiVo reneged on providing.


Ashu, you've confused me with Wangooroo- I haven't claimed Tivo reneged on anything. Not only am I not disgruntled, I am very happily gruntled with my S3!


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Gotcha Veriander - sorry. I probably Quoted hte wrong post


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## PPC1 (Sep 16, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Its an issue of principle. I didn't buy something refurbed. I bought something new.


But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

drowe said:


> From reading this thread, it strikes me that there are two different arguments here, and that may be why neither are coming together. In fact, I think both are correct (for some value of correct).
> 
> 1. the warranty defines what the company will do
> 
> ...


Could not agree more. We have younger and older people on this board. Younger generation doesn't even understand a concept of "customer is always right". They don't even know that just 20 years ago this concept was a norm for most businesses. Today just a handful of retailers and manufacturers will bend the rules in customer favor and deliver more than a minimum they obligated to do. That is a sad reality. Maybe this new approach is better for the bottom line, I don't know. I still prefer the old way of doing business and this is why if item is available from Costco I always buy from them. And in my own business I always treat customers the way I want to be treated. I believe that in a long run business that puts customer first wins and makes enough extra profit to offset exceptional customer service cost.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'd be ok with a refurb unit if and only if the hard drive and hard drive cable were new. Hard drives fail over time, it's just the way they work. To be given a refurb means I'm being given a device with a life expectancy lower than it should be.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

PPC1 said:


> But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.
> 
> I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.


A well thought out argument, but I must disagree with your first point. To suggest that I am providing TiVo with anything other than their new TiVo when I return it because it breaks is not really reasonable. But for the fact the TiVo broke within thier agreed upon warranty period I wouldn't be returning it to them.

Now, I specifically buy all electronics on Amex because they provide enhanced warranty protections. But I don't know that you can fairly claim that I am returning anything other than a brand new TiVo back to TiVo. It so happens that within the warranty period something went bad and I want to be restored back to what I was - a happy customer with a new TiVo.

And you are right TiVo has a right to contract away my right to a new TiVo by discolosing that - and by the way, no one has confirmed that is in fact the case, my TiVo box and all the materials are in an inaccessable place otherwise I would check and then I can decide if I want to pay $800 for it.

CTL


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## Barryrod (Mar 17, 2006)

PPC1 said:


> *But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.*
> 
> I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.


Well...If it was functional, I really don't think he would have been returing the unit now would he. To have something like an S3 only 45 days and if it fail is enough to get me pretty pissed off, but to then be given a refurbished unit would send me over the edge. Due to the way this has played out for the OP, I can tell you I will not be buying an S3 anytime soon.

Many have said that referbished just means it's box was opened. Well, I simply do not believe that. The company I work for replaces defective phones with Manufacturer Refurbished Digital Telephones and our Out Of Box failures for these Refurbished Phones is about 10 to 15%. It sucks and creates much more paperwork for me, but that is the way it is. Our customers have a Maint Contract with us so we replace their sets for any kind of issues regardless of how old the phone is.


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## drowe (Nov 4, 2006)

c3 said:


> So what should be the cut off date? 47 days, 48 days, etc.?


You're still applying argument 1 logic to argument 2.

Argument 2 suggests that the time frame depends on the situation. Bending the rules is always case by case. We're not amending the warranty, we're stepping outside those terms in order to provide reasonable customer service.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> When I buy something new - that is what I buy. And should that item fail within a reasonable period of time - I expect to be made whole again.
> 
> In my world being whole means not being given something that the same seller would sell for less, it means getting back the same new product or my old product which is fixed.
> 
> ...


You bought something new - but now it's been used, so why don't you consider getting another Tivo that has also been "used" (probably a whole lot less than yours has, and been "touched up" for lack of a better term) to be making you whole again?

It seems perfectly logical to replaced a used, broken Tivo with a used, not broken Tivo under the warranty.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The rules are there for a reason. They don't need to bend them. If it says 45 days it should be 45 days. This is nothing new. I've been buying electronics from mailorder starting in 1982 to online starting in 1995. The warranty is in black and white. What is the problem? This is nothing unusual. Just take the refurb unit and be done with it. Even with the AMEX warranty you'll get a repair or refurb unit. As long as it works correctly and looks right why would anyone care. If you wanted a brand new unit for something being wrong you should have bought it from a store that has an extended warranty with a replacement policy that gives you a new unit, like BestBuy. I think the problem is not doing enough research before your purchase. If you had you wouldn't be complaining.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

If i buy 4 expensive tires, and sign a piece of paper saying that if one tire blows, they can replace it with the cheapest tire they can find, what right do i have to complain when they do just that.

The op agreed that if the Tivo dies after he purchased it, then Tivo can replace it with a refurb.

It's the op that's going back on his word, not Tivo.

-smak-


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> A well thought out argument, but I must disagree with your first point. To suggest that I am providing TiVo with anything other than their new TiVo when I return it because it breaks is not really reasonable. But for the fact the TiVo broke within thier agreed upon warranty period I wouldn't be returning it to them.
> 
> Now, I specifically buy all electronics on Amex because they provide enhanced warranty protections. But I don't know that you can fairly claim that I am returning anything other than a brand new TiVo back to TiVo. It so happens that within the warranty period something went bad and I want to be restored back to what I was - a happy customer with a new TiVo.
> 
> ...


But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?

To me, that shows the person complaining is a fool.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

ashu said:


> Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!


Not nit picking at all. And yes my network was set up properly. I know what I'm doing in that regard. The apps just simply did not work. About three weeks after recieving the S3, these apps suddenly began working and there was a Tivo update that occured that appeared to solve the problem.

I spoke with Tivo support about 6 times over that issue and they never had a response. In any case they do work now. But they did not when the S3 shipped.


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> I don't know that the car example is a good one. Cars can do many things. A TiVo really only does one - record programs. I also think the price difference between an automobile and a TiVo also makes it a tough analogy.
> 
> Its not really one I would make. But, if I bought the Mac I am on now from Apple and I had severe problems with it - I would fully expect them to fix it or replace it with a new one. Replacing my unit from a with a refurbed just isn't the same. Refurbed units exist as a secondary market and are sold at a discount. You play less for them precisely because the seller values them as less.
> 
> ...


For what its worth... I laughed my ass off when I read your comment.


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## sjcbulldog (Jul 13, 2004)

ashu said:


> Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!


There was an issue with Yahoo understanding the Tivo Series 3 box. This was fixed by changing either something in Tivo's servers or Yahoo's. In either case it was a software fix, but not strictly a software update.

Sjcbulldog


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## Wangooroo (Oct 9, 2006)

drowe said:


> From reading this thread, it strikes me that there are two different arguments here, and that may be why neither are coming together. In fact, I think both are correct (for some value of correct).
> 
> 1. the warranty defines what the company will do
> 
> ...


Thats all I really want. Exceptional customer service. I am willing to pay a premium for it, and certainly thought I had paid a premium only to find that support from Tivo is less than stellar, and often un-yielding. I should not have to request escalation 6 times to get to speak with a supervisor. I should not need to hangup in frustration after being extremely calm, polite, and willing to hear them out. Often with Tivo I find even with getting escalated (If your support person is even willing to engage a supervisor) I find I still get a person that cannot solve my problem. $800 is a boatload of coin to drop on a DVR. I can afford it, and I chose to spend it. In return for spending premium $ I expect better service from Tivo than I would get from my cable company. Keeping in mind that Tivo is supposed to be the "premier" service and device for the DVR market, and cable is often considered the "lesser" performing option. The fact is... RCN provides far better support and customer service (Their DVR is crap). Tivo has a long way to go to win back my loyalty. I was a loyal Tivo fan for 7 years. Now... I'm quite sour on Tivo and very displeased with how they solve customer service issues.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> You bought something new - but now it's been used, so why don't you consider getting another Tivo that has also been "used" (probably a whole lot less than yours has, and been "touched up" for lack of a better term) to be making you whole again?
> 
> It seems perfectly logical to replaced a used, broken Tivo with a used, not broken Tivo under the warranty.


No, not at all. And I think no one else buys that argument either. They may see nothing wrong with getting a refurb, but that is because they see no difference between the two not under your theory.

Because but for a manufacturing defect in my TiVo I would still have my original new TiVo. I wouldn't just send it back for the sake of entertainment.



TTB said:


> But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?
> 
> To me, that shows the person complaining is a fool.


Yeah, of course they are. But they are entitled to thier idiotic opinions.

I also think people who discuss Iraq as though they have been there are equally foolish - as someone who has been there. But they are entitled to their foolish opinions.



Wangaroo said:


> For what its worth... I laughed my ass off when I read your comment.


Good. Hopefully your bringing it up again will upset someone.....on the internet.

What could be more fun?


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> No, not at all. And I think no one else buys that argument either. They may see nothing wrong with getting a refurb, but that is because they see no difference between the two not under your theory.
> 
> Because but for a manufacturing defect in my TiVo I would still have my original new TiVo. I wouldn't just send it back for the sake of entertainment.


But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).

I think it would indeed be exceptional service for TiVo to give you something better than what you would have even if it didn't have a problem. You might be right to want exceptional service (I know I do!), but I'd have to say that replacing it with a refurb is adequate service.

Someone made the argument that a refurb unit might have a disk drive that has more hours on it than the disk drive in your failing unit, and so the replacement might have a reduced life expectancy for the disk drive. I think that point does have some validity. They should give you a replacement with a hard drive that has seen no more wear than the unit being replaced.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

bdlucas said:


> But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).


Guess I'm not the only one that has a little common sense, am I? I must have been absent they passed out the sense of entitlement that some posters in this thread have.

Have a problem with your used Tivo not working? Get a used one in return. The policy is spelled out in black and white. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and go somewhere else.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> Guess I'm not the only one that has a little common sense, am I?


Yes, like some other posters here, you have little common sense. 

Is a unit that was returned for paid repair after being in use for 2 or 3 years and given a refurb in exchange, then itself refurbished, an acceptable unit to be used to swap with someone's 32-day-used equipment?

What if the equipment wasn't identical but had gone through a circuit board revision? Functionally equivalent, but perhaps generating more heat because it uses more discrete components thus affecting component life differently (for the worse).

People have reported all sorts of bizarre things in a refurb unit. Some have been very scratched, or have had lots of dust and/or cat hair, for instance. If you took care of your unit but experienced a component failure necessitating a repair/replacement, do you really think it fair to receive some potentially abused piece of equipment in exchange? Do you think you're really getting what you paid for?

Tire manufacturers give a percentage credit against replacements under warranty based on tread wear. There's a lot more fairness in that methodology since it accounts for the use one had of the tires before they failed and that they're being replaced with tires that are brand new. Tire company warranties don't give you a refurbed tire.

Fortunately, even if TiVo's written warranty says something, many states have laws that protect the consumer following some reasonable standards usually providing more rights to the consumer regarding these sorts of issues. That's also why it's oftgen a good idea to file a complaint with your state's Attorneys General office even if you're certain they can't do anything to help you now; what they can and will do is follow trends and perhaps create legislation in the future to cover problems they see becoming more prevalent with time.


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## PPC1 (Sep 16, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?


Uhhh, no. No lawsuit = no money to the lawyers.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).
> 
> I think it would indeed be exceptional service for TiVo to give you something better than what you would have even if it didn't have a problem. You might be right to want exceptional service (I know I do!), but I'd have to say that replacing it with a refurb is adequate service.
> 
> Someone made the argument that a refurb unit might have a disk drive that has more hours on it than the disk drive in your failing unit, and so the replacement might have a reduced life expectancy for the disk drive. I think that point does have some validity. They should give you a replacement with a hard drive that has seen no more wear than the unit being replaced.


And but for a manufacturing defect - which TiVo promised they would sell me a new working unit, they must now honor that promise and provide me a new unit which is what I purchased - but here is the catch - one that works.

I have no intention of selling my TiVo. But I want what was promised to me - a functional, new TiVo.

TiVo isn't providing me anything other than the warranty protection they sold me when I bought the unit.

CTL


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> A great analogy is the cell phone market.
> I get a top of the line new shiny phone when I reup my contract (some can be near Tivo costs)
> 
> If my phone craps out, dies, and fails, they don't send me a new one, even 14 days in, they don't send a new one.
> ...


Well, ...

I had a phone crap out at the 11th month of a 12 month warranty. They sent it in for repair. It came back after the warrenty was expired. TYhey said it was fixed, but it had the same problem (grew very hot and drained the battery in about 1/2 hour). After argueing with them, they said they would send it back although they didn't have to. Came back again, same problem. I would gladly have taken a refurb. Instead I left them.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

relative to various points brought up:

What should Tivo do about replacement at day 89? at day 364?

Warranty aside, if Tivo stopped manufacturing the S2 and your S2 failed at day 364, should you get a refurb or an S3?


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

vstone said:


> Let's use the car analogy! If you return a lemon for a new car, is a car that had a flat tire, but was fixed, acceptable? Is a car that had the CD player replaced OK. We've established that a car with a blown engine wouldn't qualify.
> 
> OK, OK, just trying to lighten mood around here. Sorry!


Hoisted on my own petard (sp?)!

The above comment was made entirely in jest. Glad it contributed to the discussion anyway.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

vstone said:


> relative to various points brought up:
> 
> What should Tivo do about replacement at day 89? at day 364?


Reasonable people will differ. I don't know. I do think there is a material difference between day 89 and day 364. I have a friend who, when discussing a political topic said you know what - only in Sweden would your argument work. To wit, only in a perfect world (such as Sweden) would your argument be valid.

I don't know. But because I can't say for certainty on day X something becomes unreasonable does not prohibit me, in this specific case to hold, what I believe to be a fair opinion.



vstone said:


> Warranty aside, if Tivo stopped manufacturing the S2 and your S2 failed at day 364, should you get a refurb or an S3?


What if, what if. What if I create a scenario that is unreasonable and then ask you to apply your position to it. One day TiVo will stop producing the S2. And in that case, it will be unfortunate but some customer will be left holding the bag when their unit goes south.

I have an S3 and really enjoy it and am very satisfied with it. But I have this nagging feeling that TiVo may not be around as long as my unit - what do I do then? Well that is a risk I am willing to bear. I hope it doesn't happen but it may.


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## Lazlo123 (Nov 7, 2006)

vstone said:


> Hoisted on my own petard (sp?)!
> 
> The above comment was made entirely in jest. Glad it contributed to the discussion anyway.


But isn't there a chance the replacement car would have still been taken out for a test drive?


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> And but for a manufacturing defect - which TiVo promised they would sell me a new working unit, they must now honor that promise and provide me a new unit which is what I purchased - but here is the catch - one that works.
> 
> I have no intention of selling my TiVo. But I want what was promised to me - a functional, new TiVo.
> 
> ...


You should have negotiated that before you accepted the contract with Tivo if that is what you expected.

Why should everyone else that buys a TIVO pay to subsidize those that claim more than they bargained for?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

sthor said:


> You should have negotiated that before you accepted the contract with Tivo if that is what you expected.
> 
> Why should everyone else that buys a TIVO pay to subsidize those that claim more than they bargained for?


Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. *No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.*

I have previously acknowledged that TiVo has the right under contract to compell me to accept a refurb if that is their stated policy. Several pages later no one has provided that as definitive.

And, failing that, I can in many instances rely on state law or the protections afforded to me with my AmEx warranty protection. So I have negotiated that in advance either by law or opperation of my credit card rules.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. *No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.*
> 
> I have previously acknowledged that TiVo has the right under contract to compell me to accept a refurb if that is their stated policy. Several pages later no one has provided that as definitive.
> 
> And, failing that, I can in many instances rely on state law or the protections afforded to me with my AmEx warranty protection. So I have negotiated that in advance either by law or opperation of my credit card rules.


I can't say this is definitive. However it does say: *TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices.*

Located here.


----------



## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. *No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.*





hookbill said:


> I can't say this is definitive. However it does say: *TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices.*
> 
> Located here.


Actually, that link is for the DVR warranty and expressly says:

"For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced * with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).

The exact same terms are on page 127 of the manual CTLesq received with the S3.

I hate lawyers who think they're smarter than they really are.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

TexasAg said:


> Actually, that link is for the DVR warranty and expressly says:
> 
> "For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced * with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).
> 
> ...


I hope your not referring to me, I'm not an attorney. I don't even play one on television.  But thank you for finding an observing what my lazy eyes apparently missed.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Why do people fail to seperate what currently is from what currently should be? It happens frequently when discussing tivos. Someone argues that the way things are don't seem appropriate, someone else argues, as if that counters the original complaint, that it's the way it is. No kidding?!

The Tivo contract says what it says. So what? That doesn't make it right. It's not like we can, as suggested above, negotiate a warranty term with tivo. Regardless of what they agreed to do when we bought it, there ought to be some consideration from Tivo for its supposedly cutting edge, high paying, loyal customers. That there isn't means Tivo is doing their customers a disservice, regardless of what the wording on the warranty is. Yes, the warranty states refurbs. We get it! What you don't get is that we think it is a bad practice.

Other people do it too. So what? If I return a lemon car, since that is your favorite analogy, I get to choose in my state what I want, a FULL refund, or a NEW unit. I think that's the way it should be for tivos. Just because it's not doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

It would cost tivo more? So what. It's their product. If they can't manufacture one free of defects then why should I feel sympathy for them when considering how much the defect has cost them? Why should I, the customer, be punished for something completely beyond my control? If I pay $800 for a brand DVR and it doesn't work, why should I have to pay $20 more for a used one that does work? Seems preposterous to me.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Actually, that link is for the DVR warranty and expressly says:
> 
> "For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced * with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).
> 
> ...


Repaired. I have the right to one. I fail to see how I have somehow shot myself in the foot.

Nor did I make the argument as it relates to a replacement that because I have a better education (lawyer) than you that I am smarter. I argued that as a consumer - I have a right to be made whole which to me is a repaired (not refurbed) TiVo.

Nor have you addressed my rights under New York law which may be greater than TiVo's warrantly, nor have you addressed my rights as they pertain to the enhanced warranty protection I have recieved because I purchased my TiVo with an AmEx.

And "as it is deemed by TiVo" makes it discretionary - furthering my point that for $800 for a discretionary piece of consumer electronics TiVo should go the extra mile and make me whole - as I deem whole.

And thanks to the OP for proving my point as it is written in the TiVo warranty information.

CTL


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

hookbill said:


> I hope your not referring to me, I'm not an attorney. I don't even play one on television.  But thank you for finding an observing what my lazy eyes apparently missed.


Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> Repaired. I have the right to one. I fail to see how I have somehow shot myself in the foot.
> 
> Nor did I make the argument as it relates to a replacement that because I have a better education (lawyer) than you that I am smarter. I argued that as a consumer - I have a right to be made whole which to me is a repaired (not refurbed) TiVo.
> 
> ...


So parsing the warranty as quoted and youself:  Tivo deems the type of return, you deem how you are made whole so therefore; You are TiVo! Excellent, give yourself a brand new S3 and be done with it why are you denying yourself a new unit?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

SeanC said:


> So parsing the warranty as quoted and youself: Tivo deems the type of return, you deem how you are made whole so therefore; You are TiVo! Excellent, give yourself a brand new S3 and be done with it why are you denying yourself a new unit?


Parsing it? The word repair is there. That is hardly parsing.

And why should I accept, when one of the options I view as acceptable is listed - anything less?

They offer it, why shouldn't I get it?

Your world may be one of shrinking expectations. Mine is not.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Repaired. I have the right to one. I fail to see how I have somehow shot myself in the foot.





CTLesq said:


> They offer it, why shouldn't I get it?


You have no right to a repaired unit, and it's not up to you. The warranty says Tivo gets to decide what is necessary. If they feel you need a "renewed" Tivo instead of a "repaired" Tivo, that's what you get.

To sum up - you don't like the warranty and think it should be different. You can argue about what the warranty should say or what you wish it said, but that's irrelevant. And it doesn't matter what state law you find. The warranty says what it says. You don't like it? Tough. You shouldn't have bought it if the warranty was that unacceptable.

hookbill, I wasn't referring to you, but thanks for the link. I'd been looking for it when you posted.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> And it doesn't matter what state law you find. The warranty says what it says. You don't like it? Tough. You shouldn't have bought it if the warranty was that unacceptable.


I agree with your general assessment, but the above quoted text is rubbish. There are consumer laws that override whatever the manufacturer may say in their warranty. It does matter what state law he finds. If his state proclaims that a consumer product that was not working from day one can't be replaced with a refurbished unit, then his state law wins. That's the price tivo pays for doing business in the state. They must obey the laws.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> It does matter what state law he finds. If his state proclaims that a consumer product that was not working from day one can't be replaced with a refurbished unit, then his state law wins. That's the price tivo pays for doing business in the state. They must obey the laws.


Sure, but that's not the case here. I believe he had the unit for 40+ days, and it appears that it worked fine. That took it outside of the 30-day window to return it no questions asked. No state law is going to declare that warranty provision invalid.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> You have no right to a repaired unit, and it's not up to you. The warranty says Tivo gets to decide what is necessary. If they feel you need a "renewed" Tivo instead of a "repaired" Tivo, that's what you get.


If I complain loud and long enough I certainly am entitled to it. And it is one of three options. I have no idea what they mean by "renewed".

The fact is that one of the options which any number of posters in this thread would seek to deny me is one of the options that I believe makes me whole.



TexasAg said:


> To sum up - you don't like the warranty and think it should be different. You can argue about what the warranty should say or what you wish it said, but that's irrelevant. And it doesn't matter what state law you find. The warranty says what it says. You don't like it? Tough. You shouldn't have bought it if the warranty was that unacceptable.


I believe the warranty clearly allows me to obtain what I want. Others disagree.

If you don't think state law matters - then you are not worth having the conversation with. TiVo collected New York state sales tax from me they are no doubt registered to conduct business in New York, tough for you that I just won't accept whatever crap sandwhich you are serving and say "thank you TiVo for allowing me to give you $800 and a broken TiVo.

That the warranty supports my right to a repaired TiVo, and not to the exclusion of a repaired TiVo, only offering me the option to have a refurb shows you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> Sure, but that's not the case here. I believe he had the unit for 40+ days, and it appears that it worked fine. That took it outside of the 30-day window to return it no questions asked. No state law is going to declare that warranty provision invalid.


Any 30-day window is based on store policy. It has nothing to do with anything even spelled out in TiVo's warranty; State law could still trump it, and many do. You'll often see specific warranties written with a bunch of state-by-state differences listed at the bottom -- but it doesn't matter if they're explicitly listed or not; state law trumps the written warranty. Period. Just look at all the ins and outs around implied warranties of merchantability to see a myriad of examples of how this area is highly regulated.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Sure, but that's not the case here. I believe he had the unit for 40+ days, and it appears that it worked fine. That took it outside of the 30-day window to return it no questions asked. No state law is going to declare that warranty provision invalid.


Don't confuse a warranty with a return provision.

Honestly at this point, I don't recall the specific timeline of what the OP did or didn't do. My recollection is that it was in a grey area either right before or right after time expired.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.


Pot, meet kettle.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

SeanC said:


> Pot, meet kettle.


Not at all. I have said I want a replacement or a repaired unit. I was told I couldn't have that and the warranty said refurb.

That is not the case.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Don't confuse a warranty with a return provision.





dswallow said:


> Any 30-day window is based on store policy. It has nothing to do with anything even spelled out in TiVo's warranty


That's not my point.

The return provision means you can return a defective unit within 30 days. That is a Tivo policy as well as a store policy. From http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=E387A4A7-8FEB-4C33-A6BA-56376E4CBB18:

TiVo offers a 30-day money-back guarantee on all items purchased TiVo directly from TiVo. You may return an item for any reason for a full refund* within 30 days of your purchase date, not the received date.

With that in place, no state law is going to invalidate a warranty option that covers problems arising within the first 90 days of purchase and problems from 90-365 days of purchase.


CTLesq said:


> Not at all. I have said I want a replacement or a repaired unit. I was told I couldn't have that and the warranty said refurb.
> 
> That is not the case.


Renewed = refurb. You may not like the word selection, but demanding to see the word "refurbished" instead of the word "renewed" doesn't make the warranty invalid (esp. for a smart lawyer)!

Again, you've failed to identify anything in the warranty saying *you* have the right to decide how Tivo repairs/replaces it.



CTLesq said:


> If I complain loud and long enough I certainly am entitled to it.


Nice outlook on life.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> With that in place, no state law is going to invalidate a warranty option that covers problems arising within the first 90 days of purchase and problems from 90-365 days of purchase.


You obviously just don't understand state law.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Sure, but that's not the case here. I believe he had the unit for 40+ days, and it appears that it worked fine. That took it outside of the 30-day window to return it no questions asked. No state law is going to declare that warranty provision invalid.


It's within the 90 day window of the warranty, which is probably also the duration of the implied warranty. If the implied warranty states that the product must be refunded or replaced with a new product, then he's entitled to one.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> It's within the 90 day window of the warranty, which is probably also the duration of the implied warranty. If the implied warranty states that the product must be refunded or replaced with a new product, then he's entitled to one.


The warranty clearly says the DVR will be replaced by a "repaired, renewed or comparable product", and the choice is in Tivo's discretion. I wish anyone luck trying to convince someone that there is an implied warranty for a new unit that expressly contradicts the express warranty.



dswallow said:


> You obviously just don't understand state law.


You are correct - state law would trump anything in the warranty. I'm saying that Tivo's return policy and warranty mean you can return defective products within a specified window of time and then receive a "repaired, renewed or comparable product" (how much you pay depends on when you do it). Care to explain what state law is going to declare the warranty provision invalid? Maybe the law that says "If you complain loud and long enough, you can get a new unit instead of a renewed one"?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> That's not my point.
> 
> The return provision means you can return a defective unit within 30 days. That is a Tivo policy as well as a store policy. From http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=E387A4A7-8FEB-4C33-A6BA-56376E4CBB18:
> 
> ...


Tip of the hat for DSW for addressing this.



TexasAg said:


> Renewed = refurb. You may not like the word selection, but demanding to see the word "refurbished" instead of the word "renewed" doesn't make the warranty invalid (esp. for a smart lawyer)!


Are we talking about the warranty which allows me to have my TiVo repaired? An option that keeps me as a satisfied customer?



TexasAg said:


> Again, you've failed to identify anything in the warranty saying *you* have the right to decide how Tivo repairs/replaces it.


Different argument. I was told repeatedly my only choice was a refurb and I should accept it. That is not the case. I have the option to have it repaired. And to the extent that TiVo is giving me a comparable product that could include a new TiVo. So again I am correct.



TexasAg said:


> Nice outlook on life.


An outlook that has advanced everything that matters in society.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Are we talking about the warranty which allows me to have my TiVo repaired?
> 
> Different argument. I was told repeatedly my only choice was a refurb and I should accept it. That is not the case. I have the option to have it repaired. And to the extent that TiVo is giving me a comparable product that could include a new TiVo. So again I am correct.


Read the warranty and show me where it says *you* have the option of picking repair vs. renew. Here's the language again:

For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced * with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).

Where exactly, when it says that it's "whichever is deemed necessary by Tivo", do you come into play?

Should Tivo give you a new one, maybe. It'd be good customer service, keep a customer, etc. But it's not required under the warranty.

Please, where exactly does the warranty say you get to pick?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> Different argument. I was told repeatedly my only choice was a refurb and I should accept it. That is not the case. I have the option to have it repaired. And to the extent that TiVo is giving me a comparable product that could include a new TiVo. So again I am correct.


Or not. Not that it will matter that you are not, you'll just keep saying you are.

Sigh.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> Care to explain what state law is going to declare the warranty provision invalid? Maybe the law that says "If you complain loud and long enough, you can get a new unit instead of a renewed one"?


I've never argued that there is a state law that will affect this; only that there could be.

And one possibility off the top of my head would be related to what features were promoted as working and if those features weren't at the time the box was received and placed in service by the consumer, it might be arguable that the stated 30-day full refund offer is implicitly or even explicitly extended based on an implied warranty of fitness; that by TiVo support indicating the feature would be enabled soon, would thus start the 30-day clock ticking at that point when the customer can begin evaluating the full feature set they were told they'd have. The argument basically being that TiVo coerced/convinced the customer into waiting for a feature they were led to believe existed and thus implicitly extended the time otherwise provided to evaluate the unit for the purpose it was promoted as serving.

And again, I'm not saying that's how the law would actually work; just that there's one conceivable approach to arguing it that might be covered by existing law.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

dswallow said:


> And one possibility off the top of my head would be related to what features were promoted as working and if those features weren't at the time the box was received and placed in service by the consumer, it might be arguable that the stated 30-day full refund offer is implicitly or even explicitly extended based on an implied warranty of fitness; that by TiVo support indicating the feature would be enabled soon, would thus start the 30-day clock ticking at that point when the customer can begin evaluating the full feature set they were told they'd have. The argument basically being that TiVo coerced/convinced the customer into waiting for a feature they were led to believe existed and thus implicitly extended the time otherwise provided to evaluate the unit for the purpose it was promoted as serving.


Tough one to prove, though. So as not to avoid confusing return and warranty provisions:

To extend the 30-day return period, you'd pretty much have to show (1) TiVo said certain features would be enabled, (2) they weren't, (3) you relied on what TiVo said, (4) you bought the TiVo for those features, (5) you were ready to return it within the 30-day period because of those missing features, and (6) TiVo made you think the features would be enabled soon to change your mind. That's not the case here since the OP said his problems started at day 40. No problem at day 30, no intent to return it at day 30, etc. That's even assuming you could extend the 30-day return period because of the lack of features. You would have known right away when you got the box that they weren't enabled, and no one from Tivo ever promised they'd be working within the return period or shortly thereafter.

To extend the warranty provision, well, that's not really a help. The warranty says you get a repaired, renewed, or comparable product within a certain time period. The goal would be to declare the "repaired, renewed, or comparable product" provision invalid, rather than extending the warranty period. And the scenario above wouldn't mean the "repaired, renewed, or comparable product" provision is invalid.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Read the warranty and show me where it says *you* have the option of picking repair vs. renew. Here's the language again:
> 
> For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced *with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced * with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) * if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).
> 
> ...


I've read the warranty several times from various postings and it strikes me as odd that this warranty apparently doesn't cover the Series 3 TIVo. It's a small point, a technicality even, but the Series 3 is a DMR, not a DVR.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> You would have known right away when you got the box that they weren't enabled, and no one from Tivo ever promised they'd be working within the return period or shortly thereafter.


If such features were described on the box, or on promotional materials presented by the company to induce the order, then you'd have met that test, unless it was clearly labeled those features wouldn't work out of the box or immediately thereafter (i.e., a software update already available the day you bought/received it).


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I've read the warranty several times from various postings and it strikes me as odd that this warranty apparently doesn't cover the Series 3 TIVo. It's a small point, a technicality even, but the Series 3 is a DMR, not a DVR.


The exact same warranty language is included in the S3 manual, which describes the S3 as a "TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder (DVR)".


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> The exact same warranty language is included in the S3 manual, which describes the S3 as a "TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder (DVR)".


Busted! Oh Well.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Busted! Oh Well.


Kinda silly on their part. It's like: "Welcome to Texas A&M, which stands for Texas Agriculture & Electronics" (now no Aggie jokes).

I mean, how hard would it have been to do a search and replace from DVR to DMR?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Where exactly, when it says that it's "whichever is deemed necessary by Tivo", do you come into play?


Because I am the customer and it is one of the enticing options they dangle in front of me. Recall when I was supposed to be negotiating the warranty with TiVo? Well they gave me what I want, which may also be interpretted to include a new TiVo. It behooves them to make me happy.



TexasAg said:


> Should Tivo give you a new one, maybe. It'd be good customer service, keep a customer, etc. But it's not required under the warranty.
> 
> Please, where exactly does the warranty say you get to pick?


The argument was never that I got to pick. What I argued against, and am correct in arguing against was that my only option was that I got a refurb from TiVo and that I should be greatful as such. That is not the case. Repaired or comprable product - which very well may be read as a new TiVo.

TiVo would deem it within their interests to provide me with a new one because I am the pain in the ass customer that would make it worth their while.

Thank you for adding nothing SeanC.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

CTLesq said:


> Thank you for adding nothing SeanC.


Ditto to you.

You're basic argument now is.

"I'm an ahole give me what I want."

Correct?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

SeanC said:


> Ditto to you.
> 
> You're basic argument now is.
> 
> ...


No, my argument was that the only option available to me was not a refurbed TiVo. I have the option of a repaired or new TiVo - which is supported by the warranty, state consumer law and my rights under my AmEx card.

If standing up for yourself makes you an ahole then please count me in. I am sure a life full of accepting whatever crap is thrown at you is not for me. Clearly you enjoy heaping mounds of it.


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. *No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.*


Here you go:

WHAT IS COVERED?
TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices. TiVo warrants that the DVR will be free from defects in materials and workmanship during the limited warranty period described herein. The limited warranty coverage begins the day you purchase the product as further described in the following text. *For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) *if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any). Contact Customer Support at the phone number found in the "Troubleshooting" chapter of the Installation Guide to obtain your cost (labor costs) for exchange.

http://www.tivo.com/2.6.1.3.asp


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Well, looking at it from another angle...

According to the OP, Tivo says it is an environmental issue. Tivo is nonetheless offering a refurbished unit instead of a refund. Why? If it's an environmental issue then a refurbished unit would not resolve the problem. Furthermore, if it is an environmental issue, then the tivo has not worked properly from day 1, because it has never been able to properly work with the environment the customer now has, which is likely a typical cable environment.

So:

A) The Tivo itself is not any more defective than any other Series 3
B) All series 3 do not perform their basic operations in certain, basic environments

How is it even logical for them to send a refurb based on what tivo says?

Also, based on what I've been reading, he should be able to remedy this with the merchant, not the manufacturer. How are merchants allowed to delegate this to the manufacturer when the law says that the item has an implied warranty of "merchantability"?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> No, my argument was that the only option available to me was not a refurbed TiVo. I have the option of a repaired or new TiVo - which is supported by the warranty, state consumer law and my rights under my AmEx card.
> 
> If standing up for yourself makes you an ahole then please count me in. I am sure a life full of accepting whatever crap is thrown at you is not for me. Clearly you enjoy heaping mounds of it.


It's like talking to a brick wall. *YOU* don't get the option to pick whether Tivo gives you a new, repaired, or renewed unit. Tivo does. It's in the warranty. Why is it that you continue to insist you have the right to choose which option Tivo performs when the warranty expressly says Tivo is given the right to choose the option?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> It's like talking to a brick wall. *YOU* don't get the option to pick whether Tivo gives you a new, repaired, or renewed unit. Tivo does. It's in the warranty. Why is it that you continue to insist you have the right to choose which option Tivo does when the warranty expressly says Tivo is given that option?


BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL ARGUMENT.

The original argument was the ONLY option available to me was a refurb. That is not the case. And the warranty explicitly states that a repair or comparable product (new) is available.

So if I want something and it is stated as an option why should I accept anything less? Why should I not influence events?

There is no brick wall involved - your argument is different than the one that involved me at the begining of this thread. Its nuance.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

SeanC said:


> Ditto to you.
> 
> "I'm an ahole give me what I want."
> 
> Correct?


I think that was discovered on page one of this thread.....


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> I think that was discovered on page one of this thread.....


Weren't you ignoring me?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> The original argument was the ONLY option available to me was a refurb. That is not the case. And the warranty explicitly states that a repair or comparable product (new) is available.
> 
> So if I want something and it is stated as an option why should I accept anything less? Why should I not influence events?
> 
> There is no brick wall involved - your argument is different than the one that involved me at the begining of this thread. Its nuance.


Who cares whether Tivo actually said they have one or multiple options? Tivo has said they would provide a refurb unit. That's the only option Tivo has chosen. Tivo has exercised its discretion to choose how to provide service under the warranty.

You don't have any right to refuse the service Tivo is offering under the warranty, other than to simply say they can't have the original unit (at which point there is no refurb unit sent). You can't demand service from Tivo under the warranty and then whine when you don't like the option Tivo picked as EXPRESSLY allowed in the warranty.

What would you have preferred? Tivo to say "We could send you a new unit, a repaired unit, or a renewed unit, and we've chosen to send you a renewed unit"? Would that have made you happy? I doubt it.


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL ARGUMENT.
> 
> The original argument was the ONLY option available to me was a refurb. That is not the case. And the warranty explicitly states that a repair or comparable product (new) is available.
> 
> ...


What part of the following do you not understand?

"For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product *(whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo)* if it becomes defective or inoperative. "


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

TexasAg said:


> Who cares whether Tivo actually said they have one or multiple options? Tivo has said they would provide a refurb unit. That's the only option Tivo has chosen. Tivo has exercised its discretion to choose how to provide service under the warranty.


Because that was the intial argument and what I was discussing. I don't see how it is hard to understand that you are framing the conversation under a different light than what was initially discussed.



TexasAg said:


> You don't have any right to refuse the service Tivo is offering under the warranty, other than to simply say they can't have the original unit (at which point there is no refurb unit sent). You can't demand service from Tivo under the warranty and then whine when you don't like the option Tivo picked as EXPRESSLY allowed in the warranty.


And I fail to see how, given three options, I am precluded from asking for, influence and/or out right demanding the one I want?



TexasAg said:


> What would you have preferred? Tivo to say "We could send you a new unit, a repaired unit, or a renewed unit, and we've chosen to send you a renewed unit"? Would that have made you happy? I doubt it.


No a renewed unit would not make me happy. A repaired unit or a new one would make me happy. I fail to understand why I must accept the least common denominator. In fact, the real absurdity of this is that you (a rhetorical you) more or less argue the only acceptable solution is that I get a refurb yet the warranty allows for repair and or a new unit. To that end, there maybe state laws that require a new unit, and under enhanced credit card rules my credit card I have additional protections.

The fact that you cannot conceed that those are two viable warranty options is telling especially within the context of what we have discussed with respect to state consumer laws and why people put things on credit cards.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CTLesq said:


> And I fail to see how, given three options, I am precluded from asking for, influence and/or out right demanding the one I want?
> 
> No a renewed unit would not make me happy. A repaired unit or a new one would make me happy. I fail to understand why I must accept the least common denominator. In fact, the real absurdity of this is that you (a rhetorical you) more or less argue the only acceptable solution is that I get a refurb yet the warranty allows for repair and or a new unit. To that end, there maybe state laws that require a new unit, and under enhanced credit card rules my credit card I have additional protections.
> 
> The fact that you cannot conceed that those are two viable warranty options is telling especially within the context of what we have discussed with respect to state consumer laws and why people put things on credit cards.


Yawn. Your argument basically amounts to - I will complain loud and long and hope Tivo gives me what I want, even though they have lived up to their warranty. Good luck with that.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TexasAg said:


> Yawn. Your argument basically amounts to - I will complain loud and long and hope Tivo gives me what I want, even though they have lived up to their warranty. Good luck with that.


Lemon Laws came from exactly that sort of activity.

A long time ago it wasn't uncommon for people to occasionally be seen carrying signs roadside at car dealerships talking about their bad experiences with the merchant. Eventually the reprehensible behavior of the car dealers and manufacturers was regulated through enactment of "Lemon Laws" in most if not all states.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

HELP!!!


I'm out of popcorn!


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## dnorth12 (Feb 10, 2005)

> No a renewed unit would not make me happy. A repaired unit or a new one would make me happy


I have a question - isn't a repaired unit the same as a refurbished unit and vicy versy?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

dnorth12 said:


> I have a question - isn't a repaired unit the same as a refurbished unit and vicy versy?


"Repaired" would mean HIS specific unit, repaired.


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## jtavo (Feb 6, 2006)

Wangaroo,

You need to chill and stop making life so hard...is it really worth your time for all of this just to watch TV??

I don't care if a chimp fixed my Tivo or it was refurbed or not.....who cares, just as long as it works. (isn't that the point)

What a bunch of geeks!!!!!

It's just TV.


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## drowe (Nov 4, 2006)

More popcorn is on the way!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> And I fail to see how, given three options, I am precluded from asking for, influence and/or out right demanding the one I want?


I think the part that says "whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo" precludes you from demanding the one you want.

Well, I guess you can still demand all you want, but stand by to be disspointed.

And be exposed for the whiney, hardheaded, a-hole that you really are. I don't know how many more people can tell you until you get it through your thick skull that *you don't freaking get to decide what Tivi gives you!*

Pass the popcorn, please!


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> I think the part that says "whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo" precludes you from demanding the one you want.
> 
> Well, I guess you can still demand all you want, but stand by to be disspointed.
> 
> ...


His point is that the language leaves it for TiVo to choose and nothing prevents one from trying to convince TiVo to choose the method you'd prefer they use. So one simply has to be "convincing."

I'd bet money that any nationally syndicated columnist who wrote about their TiVo having serious problems after only 40-some days of operation would get someone's attention at TiVo who'd replace the unit with a new one.

So it's really just a matter of convincing the company you're worth that "expense."

And one way is to make enough of a public stink that it turns into a PR issue as much as a customer service issue.


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## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

dswallow said:


> His point is that the language leaves it for TiVo to choose and nothing prevents one from trying to convince TiVo to choose the method you'd prefer they use. So one simply has to be "convincing."
> 
> I'd bet money that any nationally syndicated columnist who wrote about their TiVo having serious problems after only 40-some days of operation would get someone's attention at TiVo who'd replace the unit with a new one.
> 
> ...


Should everyone that purchases a TIVO have to pay to satisfy the whiners?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

sthor said:


> What part of the following do you not understand?
> 
> "For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product *(whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo)* if it becomes defective or inoperative. "


I'm not going to argue the language in a warranty. But here is the practical suggestion to OP. 
If you purchase the unit on Amex or any other card, and it is less than 60 days since charge appeared on your account, you can ignore TiVo warranty and refund language. It makes no difference because your purchase is protected by credit card policy.You can (and should) contest the charges based on the fact that your unit doesn't work to your satisfaction. CC company will credit your account back for all the charges (including shipping if any) and will give a merchant an option to either send you the NEW unit free of charge AND provide free return shipping of the defective unit or just pay for return shipping. If merchant does not provide the free shipping, you are not under obligation to ship defective unit back. And no, I'm not the attorney, but I know for a fact that this is how most credit card companies handle it (AMEX in particular). As a merchant you either agree with these policies or do not take credit cards - you have no choice. I stress it again - it does not matter what your return policy is or what kind of manufacturer warranty your item has - if charge is contested within 60 days, merchant gets charge back and it is a merchant's responsibility to rectify the situation.


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## missiontortilla (Sep 26, 2006)

I agree with Samo. The way a chargeback works is really in favor of the consumer, not the merchant. My father in law used to own a camera store, on a few occasions people would just leave on the counter a recently purchased camera, but outside the return window and issue a chargeback with the credit card company. There was nothing that he could do about it. I have also heard that something like 50% of all credit card transactions dealing with online porn result in chargebacks!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jtavo said:


> It's just TV.


It's not TV, it's TiVo!


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## Jerry Keller (Jan 27, 2001)

this thread is FUBAR. Can't we all just get along?

Mod, how about locking this POS?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

sthor said:


> Should everyone that purchases a TIVO have to pay to satisfy the whiners?


That's how the greedy entitlement junkies would like it


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Jerry Keller said:


> this thread is FUBAR. Can't we all just get along?
> 
> Mod, how about locking this POS?


Hey Jerry. How are things back home. Every drop by the Poop Deck for a cold one?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

sthor said:


> Should everyone that purchases a TIVO have to pay to satisfy the whiners?


What are the other options? If I spend $800 and it's not going to infrastructure or a product that works flawlessly, where is it going exactly? I wonder how much these units cost to produce. I find it unlikely it's anywhere near $800.


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## Blackssr (Mar 4, 2004)

Wangooroo said:


> It's a matter of principle. My unit is only 46 days old. If it were over 90 days I could accept a refurb as a remedy. But considering I have spent well over $1000 on an S3 and 3 years of service. The VERY LEAST they could do is provide me a new S3. The S# was not even shipped with all features enabled or working.
> 
> They will not even cover the cost to ship the unit back to them! This is NOT a fair policy!
> 
> ...


I have a series 1 for sale with 20 hours recording time. I can let you have it for $ 1147 and I will ship free.


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## Blackssr (Mar 4, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


Did this happen to you?


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## Franco (Feb 24, 2002)

nrc said:


> This is funny. Once upon a time if you had a piece of CE gear go bad under warranty you would have to take it or ship it to an "authorized repair center" where they would "repair or replace it at their option". This process took forever, it was impossible to find out your status, and if they did decide to repair the item you could never really be sure if the problem would actually be fixed or the unit would work when the item was returned.
> 
> The current practice of uniformly returning items to a central location where everything is refurbished and sent out as replacements for other returns is a vast improvement over that process in almost every way.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why everyone keeps going on and on and on about this. nrc pointed out the warranty information in page 1 of this thread. It doesn't matter if you think you should get a S3 because the warranty doesn't say that you will. Hey I'd be upset too, but the warranty pretty much tells it all.

And seriously, a class action lawsuit? I don't even know how to begin describing what an absolute horrible idea that is.


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