# Got the Letter...



## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

...from Tivo about Comcasts move to 'all Digital', meaning I will need cable cards or loose channels. I will opt for less channels. 

I've been happily using an S3 and TivoHD for 2.5 years primarily for OTA HD and some analog cable. I'm not a fan of Comcasts overpriced HD packages, billing games and garbage fees for cablecards, digital outlets, blah, blah, blah... so I just watch the SD channels with no need for all the comcast billing drama. 

Most of my viewing is OTA HD with a few programs on Fx and USA networks. I'll just find these via NF or BT and go without viewing these on the tivo via SD Comcast. 

My three year prepaid S3 contract is up in June 2010. I may try the HDHomeRun HD tuner (w/o cable cards) for HD OTA, add it to my network and drop both comcast and Tivo

Here's the letter I received from Tivo. They know I don't use cable cards, are aware of Comcasts converson plans in my area and are giving me a heads up that I will loose channels. 

Dear TiVo Customer,

Comcast Cable is transitioning to an all-digital cable network. With all-digital cable, extended basic cable channels will be broadcast only in a digital format and require CableCARD(s) to be viewed. However, basic cable channels, which include your local network channels like ABC, CBS, and NBC , will continue to be broadcast in analog format.

There will be NO change in your recording capabilities as a result of this transition. If you have a TiVo HD or TiVo HD XL DVR, you will, however, need 1 M-Card (multi-stream CableCARD) or 2 S-Cards (single-stream CableCARDs) to continue receiving all the channels you are currently able to watch. If you have a Series3 HD DVR, you will need 2 M-Cards or 2 S-Cards. Please contact Comcast if you need to obtain CableCARD(s).

To learn more about Comcast's all-digital transition, please visit the links below:

1. If you have installed CableCards, your TiVo and TV service will NOT be affected by this transition. For more information please visit our Support Pages.
2. If you didn't install CableCards, you will only be able to view channels that are broadcast in analog format. For more information please visit our Support Pages. 

Thanks for being a valued TiVo customer!

Your friends at TiVo


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## Teeps (Aug 16, 2001)

It's great to have choices... But, what's the point of this post?


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

The point is the use of my S3 is changing (diminishing due to Comcast changes) and it may be affecting others that leverage Tivo in a similar manner (HD OTA + analog cable). I thought this may be worth a discussion. If this is not you, move along.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

rmassey said:


> Here's the letter I received from Tivo. They know I don't use cable cards, are aware of Comcasts converson plans in my area and are giving me a heads up that I will loose channels.


Everyone got the same letter. I have a cableCARD and my letter is identical. I also took advantage of the free digital adapter. I activated and threw it in a box in case my cableCARD fails. I would prefer that we have the option of analog when the cableCARD fails (as mine just did.) Other than that, not much else that I can see being done about it here. I am VERY VERY glad that there has been no talk about SDV. The Comcast tech I had today wasn't even aware there was such thing as a tuning adapter. That is VERY good!


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Will you get any guide data that's useful for Comcast channels without a cable card?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

pdhenry said:


> Will you get any guide data that's useful for Comcast channels without a cable card?


If you are asking me, I'm not sure. You can not use the THD or S3 with the digital adapter. The only thing you can get once this change happens is local channels in analog. You must use a cableCARD for everything else.

If you have an S1 or S2, you can still use the digital adapter. Since the TiVo can send signals, it should work the same as an STB.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> Everyone got the same letter.


OK, I thought perhaps Tivo was targeting this towards those of us that do not use cc's.

No big deal to me really, but if this works out to reducing my S3/HD to only OTA HD, I'll look at other options to reduce cost (tivo fee).

I currently use a WDTV2, so my thinking is adding a Network HD tuner (HD HomeRun), combined with my already existing server and WDTV for playback will work out. Dropping Tivo fees for a few months pays for the HDHomerun and I already have the rest of the parts to make it a working alternative.

This is no fault of Tivo, it just is the way it is (mostly due to Comcast).


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

rmassey said:


> ...from Tivo about Comcasts move to 'all Digital', meaning I will need cable cards or loose channels. I will opt for less channels.


If they're going *ALL *digital you'll be opting for *no *channels. Thought you might be interested.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

They're not going all digital, the locals will still be in analog for some time.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

>>If they're going ALL digital you'll be opting for no channels

that would be no channels *from Comcast*. It may have escaped your attention but in my OP I stated that I get HD locals via OTA, which works fine with the S3/HD. I just question if the Tivo fees are worth it strictly for HD locals when other more cost effective options are now available.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> They're not going all digital, the locals will still be in analog for some time.


Currently I am not watching analog locals or even HD locals via Comcast. I pickup my HD locals via Antenna for free and completely bypass Comcast.


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## cjv2 (Dec 16, 2009)

Funny, I never got such a letter from Tivo. However, Comcast is definitely going all-digital (or all-digital with the exception of basic... blah blah blah). In fact, they converted my headend four days ago.


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

I am actually glad to see that comcast is dropping analog cable service and moving to an all digital system. It will free up bandwidth for more HD TV channels.

Personally the way I look at is it, is this. If you don't like cable... so be it. Make use of OTA and whats available online via the internet.

Pesonally, while cable companies have their issues and could do ALOT better then they are doing. This applies to all of them, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner and even Verizon FIOS. However... for me any many others, we are NOT willing to give up HBO-HD, ESPN-HD channels, and many of our other "Cable only HD" channels. For that we are willing to pay the high prices of cable. Sure we don't like it, but we don't like NOT having those channels that we so love more.

If you don't feel cable is a value to you, then by all means, don't waste your money getting cable.

Here is one thing to honestly think of.

Linear OTA/Cable television service is on it's way out. It won't happen in the next 5 years, or even 10 years. But I would be willing to bet my life savings that in the next 20 or 30 years ALL TV will move away from Linear broadcasting and move entirely (100&#37 being available online, with TRUE internet TV. OTA will go away, Cable TV will go away.

Keep this in mind. The FCC is ALLREADY trying to move the allready existing Digital OTA to a smaller spectrum of the airwaves so that more bandwidth can be made available for OTA Digital Data services (Cell Modems / Cell service). This WON"T happen in the next 10 years, but Almost deffinately in the next 20 to 30.

Good luck on your future TV viewing experiance, by whatever means you think is of value to you.

TGC


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

Do you use a STB at all? If not, they should card your TiVo at no extra fee as it's the primary outlet. Then you can get 2 DTAs also for no extra for some time.
For what it's worth, this transition has been happening for some time, town by town, so some have dealt with it for a while now. My town converted just a few weeks ago.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> we are NOT willing to give up HBO-HD, ESPN-HD channels, and many of our other "Cable only HD" channels. For that we are willing to pay the high prices of cable.


You are a 'good' consumer, just the kind Cable-Cos love. I am a bad consumer.

In 20-30 years I won't care what they do. I'm old now, I'll be dead then.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

rmassey said:


> OK, I thought perhaps Tivo was targeting this towards those of us that do not use cc's.


They are. They are letting you know that some analog channels are being moved to digital, and will either require a cable box or DTA (for Series 1 and 2 owners) or CableCards (for Series 3/TiVoHD/XL owners) for continued viewing of these channels.

Comcast is not the only one reducing their analog channel lineup. FiOS and RCN have gone completely digital. Some others are moving everything but the locals to digital. They're doing this because digital channels take up less bandwidth than analog, and customers are demanding more HD channels which take up a lot of bandwidth.

Like TexasGrillChef, I would prefer to see more digital SD channels; the analog ones just plain suck, at least with Charter.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

IOW the "All-Digital" format on Comcast isn't all digital at all. Comcast is one of the largest distributors of cable content in the USA if not THE largest. Basic channels on Comcast will remain in analog so that burys the protestations of the multitude here who venture the opinion that TiVo isn't addressing the gray screen on analog issue because there will soon be no more analog.

It now is evident that "soon" is probably years away.

Now what excuse can they come up with for not addressing this serious bug that keeps TiVoHD from reliably receiving/recording plain old analog channels for many users???


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

RoyK said:


> IOW the "All-Digital" format on Comcast isn't all digital at all. Comcast is one of the largest distributors of cable content in the USA if not THE largest. Basic channels on Comcast will remain in analog so that burys the protestations of the multitude here who venture the opinion that TiVo isn't addressing the gray screen on analog issue because there will soon be no more analog.


In every such market, only ~30 local and public interest channels are left in analog, and all of those are available with digital versions. Comcast is deploying digital-only equipment in these markets.

Around this time last year, Comcast claimed that 95% of customers would have digital simulcast by the end of the year. They are running a little behind, but they should meet that goal by mid-year.

Unfortunately, it looks like VA+MD will represent a significant percentage of that 5%.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Ummm, the OP is in Colorado.

But even if you are correct Virginia and Maryland represent a significant population base. This will not be a non-issue (except for TiVo) for quite some time.

Oh, and Comcast isn't the only cable provider, merely a big one. My provider, for example, isn't comcast and has NO plans to go all digital in the near future.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

You could pick up a used series 2 with lifetime service for $200 and record every cable channel in SD using the cable company set top box and an IR blaster. Then transfer the programming to the tivo hd to watch or watch directly from the series 2. It seems like you don't really care about HD content anyway.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> . It seems like you don't really care about HD content anyway.


Where did you get that idea?

So you are proposing that to get a TiVoHD to work one should purchase another box? Preposterous! The TiVoHD is advertised to record digital AND ANALOG and should do so. Reliably.

(Actually I have 3 Series 2 boxes which is completely immaterial.)


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He gets that idea because you insist that having a Tivo HD record the locals in analog is a big deal. It is not - the main purpose is to record them in HD. If you want to use a DVR to record analog locals, stick with your S2s.

You might've had a case with expanded basic, but not with the locals.


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## csdunlap (Jan 12, 2010)

I am not sure of the big issue here. Install an antennae and get locals in beautiful HD. I canceled cable. I now use Netflix streaming and HULU (via PlayOn on PS3). There is never a shortage of programming and my monthly payment is a mere $8.99. My TIVO box is extremely valuable despite not having ANY cable channels.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> He gets that idea because you insist that having a Tivo HD record the locals in analog is a big deal. It is not - the main purpose is to record them in HD. If you want to use a DVR to record analog locals, stick with your S2s.
> 
> You might've had a case with expanded basic, but not with the locals.


First off I never mentioned "Locals".

On my cable company in addition to Locals and government access channels the following channels are available ONLY in analog:

CSPAN, TBN, E, HALLMARK, LIFETIME, FX, USA, TNT, TBS, SPEED, CNN, FNC, CNBC, TWC, TVLAND, DISN,NIK, TLC, APL, DSC, NGC, TRAV, HGTV, FOOD, BRAVO, SYFY,AETV, TCM, AMC, FMC,MTV, VH1,CMTV,GAC

That's like telling the purchaser of a brand new car who learns that it begins stalling and overheating on trips over a hundred miles to stick to driving it to Kroger and take the 7 year old clunker on long trips because it doesn't do that. It's crazy right from the get-go.

Exactly who are you to define what is or is not a big deal for me? The big deal is that TiVo is selling a product that doesn't reliably do what they claim it does and charging a monthly fee on top of it.

My cable company broadcasts approximately SEVENTY channels in analog. They do NOT simulcast those channels in digital. I bought my TiVoHD so that I could record them - along with the SD digital and HD channels. It's supposed to do that. It doesn't, at least not reliably.

I'll stick with insisting that the DVR that I bought to do the job just do it - as advertised.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The point is that the locals are all that's left in analog after the digital migration, so there's little to no need in having a Tivo HD for that. That's what this entire thread was about.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> The point is that the locals are all that's left in analog after the digital migration, so there's little to no need in having a Tivo HD for that. That's what this entire thread was about.


The point is that other recorders out there can record analog with a higher reliability than TiVoHD. Heck, even 15 year old vcrs work better with analog.

The point is that the TiVoHD was sold and is still specified to record analog as well as digital programming and doesn't do so reliably.

The point is that analog programming still is available and has been available for the past year while TiVoHD has had this bug.

The point is that the digital migration won't be complete for years. Meanwhile the TiVoHD won't record a sizeable fraction of available programs reliably and TiVo has, thus far, refused -- or not had the capability -- to fix it.

The point is that TiVo has shown that it will not support the products it is now selling and, therefore, it isn't reasonable to expect that they will do so for any future products either.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> The point is that other recorders out there can record analog with a higher reliability than TiVoHD. Heck, even 15 year old vcrs work better with analog.


Incorrect. A 15 year old vcr would not have reliably recorded those rescheduled programs due to the President's SoTU address (or any rescheduled program for that matter).


RoyK said:


> The point is that the TiVoHD was sold and is still specified to record analog as well as digital programming and doesn't do so reliably.


Incorrect. There is evidence that the TiVo HD reliably records analog in markets and by providers other than yours.


RoyK said:


> The point is that analog programming still is available and has been available for the past year while TiVoHD has had this bug.


Correct.


RoyK said:


> The point is that the digital migration won't be complete for years. Meanwhile the TiVoHD won't record a sizeable fraction of available programs reliably and TiVo has, thus far, refused -- or not had the capability -- to fix it.


It is unprovable (by either you or I) what fraction of available programs are not recordable by the TiVo HD, therefore "sizeable" has as much credibility as "miniscule". I would suspect that if the problem were truly sizable, the issue would have been addressed by now.


RoyK said:


> The point is that TiVo has shown that it will not support the products it is now selling and, therefore, it isn't reasonable to expect that they will do so for any future products either.


Incorrect. See the TiVo Software Version History for evidence of support.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> ...
> 
> It is unprovable (by either you or I) what fraction of available programs are not recordable by the TiVo HD, therefore "sizeable" has as much credibility as "miniscule". I would suspect that if the problem were truly sizable, the issue would have been addressed by now.
> 
> Incorrect. See the TiVo Software Version History for evidence of support.


The tivohd didn't record the programs displaced by the state of the union address either. They were broadcast in the early hours of the following morning and were not in the guide. Fortunately the local station announced the time and we recorded them fine in HD

As to whether the tivoHD reliably records in some markets other than mine what possible interest is that to me? I'm not "lucky enough?" to live in one of those markets.

My tivohd has not recorded 55 programs (since I started tabulating them) in the last year due to the gray screen issue. You may call that miniscule - I do not.

And the version history you refer to carefully ignores bug fixes or the lack thereof


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

rmassey said:


> The point is the use of my S3 is changing (diminishing due to Comcast changes) and it may be affecting others that leverage Tivo in a similar manner (HD OTA + analog cable). I thought this may be worth a discussion. If this is not you, move along.


I don't follow.

The only change is that if you have expanded basic, you will need a cablecard to continue receiving the channels. Why would this be a dealbreaker?

They aren't going to charge you for HD if you don't WANT HD, you can get cablecards and just maintain your expanded basic at the exact same price you pay now (MAYBE a small fee for cablecards, but I think they might waive that due to the converseion.)

I don't get what your complaint is, unless you are mad that you're losing channels you currently don't pay for, there shouldn't be a problem.


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## bananaman (Jul 18, 2005)

LOL! The cable company at one of my locations went all-digital BEFORE the S3 was released. And there is no OTA. My S3 has been doing all-digital on CableCards since September 2006. It's not a big deal at all.


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## Topmounter (Apr 11, 2007)

I got the letter and am happy because it means more HD channels are coming soon... however I still don't understand the point of this thread.

I have an S3 w/ M-card.


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## Gavroche (May 27, 2007)

Topmounter said:


> I got the letter and am happy because it means more HD channels are coming soon... however I still don't understand the point of this thread.
> 
> I have an S3 w/ M-card.


Not sure of the point either, but I will agree that the Comcast digital transition is frustrating for Tivo users. Sure, you can have Comcast come out and install cable cards for you, but it's a hassle. Cable Cards in general are a hassle with Comcast (Don't have experience with any other providers so I can't speak to that.) Try calling them up and asking them to reset them for you, for example...

What annoyed me from the Tivo side of things was the fact that in my area, after the Comcast switch to digital, there were actually more analog channels left than Comcast publicly announced in the line-up, which resulted in various analog channels being available on my cable system that my Tivo can not receive. (For example, I can't tell my series 2 that I receive History Channel over analog cable because as far as it's concerned I can only get it through the cable box.) Of course, Tivo can not be expected to provide for unsupported analog channels, but it's frustrating just the same.

So, I feel the furstration! But yes, if you have TivoHD or Series 3, just get cable cards and deal with the inevitable hassle like the rest of us. I'm sure Comcast won't mind charging you the rental fee for the cable cards and the "Additional Digital Outlet Fee." Oh I love that one.

I'm Just saying. . .


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I got the letter and it's fine by me. I already have a CC in my HD. The only problems is I guess my old analog TV in the bedroom is only good for local channels unless I want to get a set top box for it.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

janry said:


> I got the letter and it's fine by me. I already have a CC in my HD. The only problems is I guess my old analog TV in the bedroom is only good for local channels unless I want to get a set top box for it.


They will give you two digital adapters for free.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

With the S2 you don't have to rent cable cards and with MRV it's like adding a third tuner to your TIVO HD.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

Topmounter said:


> ...I still don't understand the point of this thread.


Pretty simple really, I've been using Tivo w/o cc for 2.5 years, receiving analog cable and I'd just like to avoid what is described here



> So, I feel the furstration! But yes, if you have TivoHD or Series 3, just get cable cards and deal with the inevitable hassle like the rest of us. I'm sure Comcast won't mind charging you the rental fee for the cable cards and the "Additional Digital Outlet Fee." Oh I love that one.


yup, this ^^^ pretty much sums it up.....


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

rmassey said:


> Pretty simple really, I've been using Tivo w/o cc for 2.5 years, receiving analog cable and I'd just like to avoid what is described


Getting cablecards is not a big deal...


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Getting cablecards is not a big deal...


Yup, sounds so easy and trouble free here


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

rmassey said:


> Pretty simple really, I've been using Tivo w/o cc for 2.5 years, receiving analog cable and I'd just like to avoid what is described here


Personally, I think you are worrying about the *potential* problem way too much. And that's from someone whose own CableCard install didn't go smoothly the first time.

If you are still interested in the channels that will be switching over to digital, and it will not cost you any more money, just have Comcast install the cards and be done with it.

If you do end up with problems that cannot be solved in a reasonable amount of time, then you can remove the cards and just go back to what little analog service is left. Your only sacrifice is your time.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> Getting cablecards is not a big deal...





rmassey said:


> Yup, sounds so easy and trouble free here[/URL]





RonDawg said:


> Personally, I think you are worrying about the *potential* problem way too much. And that's from someone whose own CableCard install didn't go smoothly the first time.


CableCARDs are not as bad as you read in several threads. Many MANY users in TCF have had quick and painless installs, even from Comcast! (insert GASP here)

Mine took all of 30 minutes over 3 years ago, and have performed flawlessly since that day in my S3. If I'd had a "standard experience" according to the TCF threads I would have needed to have sacrificed a goat in there somewhere to get a picture. 

Diane


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## jbarm (Jan 14, 2008)

I just received the email from TIVO about the transition. My question is whether this is a signal that the transition is imminent or was it just a blanket email to all TIVO/Comcast users?

The reason I ask is that there has been no indication from Comcast that the transition is taking place in my market anytime soon. I have searched quite a bit (Google and otherwise) for any information and there is nothing suggesting that we will be moved anytime soon.

Any list out there showing moves by city/state?

jb


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## maser2 (Mar 5, 2007)

I think this was a blanket e-mail. Our conversion happened a number of months ago, but I still got that e-mail about how this would affect my Series 2 DT...


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## rjd123 (Dec 2, 2009)

I also received this email from Comcast. We just got the Tivo in December and had to pay for a tech to come out and install an M card then. Comcast just raised their fee in January for a tech to come out to $39.99. It's kind of frustrating if they knew this was coming they didn't just install the second M card at the time. I'm not fully understanding what happens after the conversion if the S3 only has 1 M card in it and what we lose by not installing it. Can anyone explain please? Thanks!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

rjd123 said:


> I'm not fully understanding what happens after the conversion if the S3 only has 1 M card in it and what we lose by not installing it. Can anyone explain please? Thanks!


I don't understand what you are asking. The conversion letter only applies to TiVos without a CableCard. If you have a CableCard, you can ignore that Comcast letter.

If you have the discontinued TiVo Series3 model with the OLED screen, then you need two CableCards (regardless of type) to support both tuners. If you have the TivoHD model, then one M-CARD supports both tuners. That's always been the case and it's not changing.

TivoHD -- only requires one M-CARD to support both tuners

















TiVo Series3 -- always requires two CableCards to support both tuners


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

The first cablecard is free with Comcast, so I guess I don't understand the OPs reluctance to get one. Why would anybody who owns a digital-capable Tivo deal with analog TV?? I haven't viewed or recorded an analog signal in like 5 years.


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## jbarm (Jan 14, 2008)

I have a S3 with analog cable and don't have a cable card.

Why? Because my analog cable is a lot cheaper than digital. I get my HD from an OTA antenna. Don't see the value in HD on the regular cable channels vs cost.

Since digital cable costs over $60 a month and analog a lot less, I'm good with where I am.

With that being said, there is no hint that my area is being changed so far this year.

jb


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

wackymann said:


> The first cablecard is free with Comcast, so I guess I don't understand the OPs reluctance to get one.


He's been scared off by all the posts about the problems with CableCard installs.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

jbarm said:


> I have a S3 with analog cable and don't have a cable card.
> 
> Why? Because my analog cable is a lot cheaper than digital. I get my HD from an OTA antenna. Don't see the value in HD on the regular cable channels vs cost.


You don't need to watch the HD channels to see the benefit of digital. Even in SD, you can see an improvement over analog.

It's really apparent with Discovery and History Channel. Some of their programs (particularly the older ones) are aired on their sister digital channels (Science Channel, History International, etc.) and the improvement is remarkable. Or more accurately, you won't believe you've been putting up with crappy analog cable for so many years.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

rmassey said:


> Yup, sounds so easy and trouble free here


It is easy and trouble free for the majority of users. Most of the bugs have been worked out long ago.

Go to any forum, DirecTV, Dish, cable, TiVo, you'll find a percentage of people that have issues.

But fine, don't do it because you're afraid, lose your channels. Good luck!


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

RonDawg said:


> You don't need to watch the HD channels to see the benefit of digital. Even in SD, you can see an improvement over analog.


Exactly - the folks complaining here are needlessly whining about something that's going away anyway, and which is being replaced by something better.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Exactly - the folks complaining here are needlessly whining about something that's going away anyway, and which is being replaced by something better.


The folks here complaining are complaining about* defective software that keeps the equipment they purchased from working reliably, has done so for the last year, and -- unless it is fixed -- will continue doing so for the next year or two at least. *

Since you don't seem to get it I'll repeat it one more time. I HAVE ABOUT SEVENTY CHANNELS RIGHT NOW THAT I CANNOT RELY UPON MY TIVO HD TO RECORD. SEVENTY! THEY ARE NOT SIMULCAST IN DIGITAL AND WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE IN DIGITAL ON MY CABLE SYSTEM FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE! THEY INCLUDE MANY POPULAR CHANNELS some of which I listed in my earlier post.

GOT IT?

Your labeling it as "whining" is another attempt to trivialize a serious problem and hope it will go away. It will. Someday. But not tomorrow. Not next week. Not next month. Not next year for many cable systems including mine.

It is not whining to complain when a piece of equipment one has purchased and pays to use isn't reliable. Indeed, accepting such performance without complaint is burying your head in the sand.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> ...It is not whining to complain when a piece of equipment one has purchased and pays to use isn't reliable. Indeed, accepting such performance without complaint is burying your head in the sand.


You: Doctor, it hurts when I move my arm like this.
Doctor: Stop moving your arm like that.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> You: Doctor, it hurts when I move my arm like this.
> Doctor: Stop moving your arm like that.


If that is intended to be just telling an old stale joke, then it is.

If it is intended to send the message that if my TiVoHD doesn't do what it's sold to do then just accept that fact, don't complain, and don't try to record analog channels with it, then it's stupid and a perfect example of what I meant by burying one's head in the sand.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

RoyK said:


> If that is intended to be just telling an old stale joke, then it is.
> 
> If it is intended to send the message that if my TiVoHD doesn't do what it's sold to do then just accept that fact, don't complain, and don't try to record analog channels with it, then it's stupid and a perfect example of what I meant by burying one's head in the sand.


It was intended to show the folly of continuing to do something that has little benefit to you.


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

It has been said that doing the same action over & over, & expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

I have both a Tivo HD & a Series 2 Tivo and I recieved two different emails concerning the Comcast update. Each email targeted a different Tivo type. No communications from Comcast on just when this transition might happen, which is typical.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> It was intended to show the folly of continuing to do something that has little benefit to you.


Better to be thought the fool for demanding that what I pay for do what its sold to do than to be proved the fool by accepting the fact that it doesn't without complaint.


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## wackymann (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm amazed that there are still cable systems out there who don't offer all of their channels digitally. RoyK has every right to demand that the Tivo work properly with analog signals, but he shouldn't have to deal with analog signals in this day and age.

As for the OP, I think he is under the mistaken impression that using a cable card forces you to upgrade your subscription to some higher level of service. I obviously don't know the exact policy of every Comcast affiliate in the USA, but it's my understanding that a cable card simply allows you to receive and decrypt the digital channels you already subscribe to. Does Comcast require some minimum level of service before they will install a cable card in your Tivo?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

wackymann said:


> As for the OP, I think he is under the mistaken impression that using a cable card forces you to upgrade your subscription to some higher level of service. I obviously don't know the exact policy of every Comcast affiliate in the USA, but it's my understanding that a cable card simply allows you to receive and decrypt the digital channels you already subscribe to. Does Comcast require some minimum level of service before they will install a cable card in your Tivo?


There's no corporate policy to that effect, but many CSRs don't want to give CableCards to customers without digital service. Whether this was a part of their training in that particular region is unclear.

No Comcast account requires a digital service to work with a CableCard. A CableCard works with basic cable on every Comcast system in the country; it's only a question of whether you can get one installed. Some customers have gone so far as to order cancel digital cable, obtain the CableCard, and then cancel digital cable, keeping the card at a low monthly rate.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> There's no corporate policy to that effect, but many CSRs don't want to give CableCards to customers without digital service. Whether this was a part of their training in that particular region is unclear.
> 
> No Comcast account requires a digital service to work with a CableCard. A CableCard works with basic cable on every Comcast system in the country; it's only a question of whether you can get one installed. Some customers have gone so far as to order cancel digital cable, obtain the CableCard, and then cancel digital cable, keeping the card at a low monthly rate.


Why would you need a cablecard without digital service...?


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## cjv2 (Dec 16, 2009)

Adam1115 said:


> Why would you need a cablecard without digital service...?


Handling non-digital encrypted channels (to the extent that they exist anymore, at least)?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Why would you need a cablecard without digital service...?


For a customer with limited basic service, a CableCard provides all unencrypted channels on the appropriate numbers with guide data.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> For a customer with limited basic service, a CableCard provides all unencrypted channels on the appropriate numbers with guide data.


If none of them are digital, then they are analog, which the TiVo already handles.

If you don't have a digital package, it isn't going to give you guide data on clear QAM channels. I've tried it. When comcast de-authorizes channels, even if they are in the clear, they won't exist to the TiVo.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> If none of them are digital, then they are analog, which the TiVo already handles.
> 
> If you don't have a digital package, it isn't going to give you guide data on clear QAM channels. I've tried it. When comcast de-authorizes channels, even if they are in the clear, they won't exist to the TiVo.


No. As long as the CableCard is authorized, the channels show up on the TiVo with guide data. Aside from a trap, there is no mechanism for Comcast to de-authorize locals and other unencrypted channels on a CableCard. The CableCard provides QAM mapping information for all channels regardless, so all have the appropriate guide information.

If you did not receive the digital versions of your limited basic channels, including HD locals, then either Comcast added a trap to your line, or you forgot to re-run guided setup.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bkdtv said:


> No. As long as the CableCard is authorized, the channels show up on the TiVo with guide data. Aside from a trap, there is no mechanism for Comcast to de-authorize locals and other unencrypted channels on a CableCard. The CableCard provides QAM mapping information for all channels regardless, so all have the appropriate guide information.
> 
> If you did not receive the digital versions of your limited basic channels, including HD locals, then either Comcast added a trap to your line, or you forgot to re-run guided setup.


No. The cablecard also acts as a conditional access device. If you aren't authorized to view a channel, you won't.

There might be areas where they allow what you are suggesting, but the cable company can certainly deauthorize any digital channel and your TiVo won't show it, even if it's clear.

Guess what else? It does it for analog as well. Say you have limited basic but get extra channels that leak through the filter (or if you don't have a filter). The cablecard will prevent your TiVo from tuning those as well.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> No. The cablecard also acts as a conditional access device. If you aren't authorized to view a channel, you won't.


I'm not familiar with any part of the CableCard spec that would allow a cable company to disable access to unencrypted channels.



Adam1115 said:


> Guess what else? It does it for analog as well. Say you have limited basic but get extra channels that leak through the filter (or if you don't have a filter). The cablecard will prevent your TiVo from tuning those as well.


I think you are confusing restrictions on encrypted digital simulcast with restrictions on analog channels. When a CableCard is installed on a system with ADS, digital versions of all channels replace the analog versions. It doesn't matter whether one _could_ receive the analog versions of those channels, because the digital versions (usually encrypted) always replace the analog versions when a CableCard is installed.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> I'm not familiar with any part of the CableCard spec that would allow a cable company to disable access to unencrypted channels.


The only way is to just not map the channel at all. In that case it wouldn't be conditional but it would affect everyone on that headend with a cablecard. This does happen by accident many times (and is also used to hide analog channels that have a digital version).


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wackymann said:


> Why would anybody who owns a digital-capable Tivo deal with analog TV??


I have a S3 & TivoHD, and for most of my ownership of both, used only analog. I *understand* it is sort of a strange use of them, but I got them because of the "lifetime transfer" offers in the past. (As I've said in other threads, I sort of feel suckered regarding the S3 though I *do* like the screen on it.. But for the TivoHD, what I paid including lifetime subscription was very much worth it.)

I had only single tuner Tivos before that, so was gaining two more tuners + "future proofing" for the OTA digital transition _and_ cable digital transition.

Currently I have cable cards in my TivoHD since I lost most channels when they transferred most of expanded basic to digital only.

Even though I'm essentially *agreeing* with you in that I am now leaning towards putting cablecards in my S3 (swapping the existing S cards in my TivoHD & getting an M card -- they only had S cards that day when I went in)... I would *still* use the option to record MOST of what I watch on the broadcast channels in analog if it were available... because of much much smaller recordings (uses less disk space). Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% aware that that option is not there, I'm speaking hypothetically. I also get fairly rare digital dropouts, so for stuff I watch & delete I probably would put up with a slightly snowy picture. It's really stuff I record 'for keeps' (ironically which is potentially copy protected in digital and *rarely* is in analog, at least when dubbing to my DVD recorder) when I'm more likely to record on the Tivo using the digital tuner.

There are others here who have said they use these digital capable devices to record only analog too. Don't get me wrong, I actually appreciate access to the new channels I get.. but I'd probably give that up to have extended basic in analog instead.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

RoyK said:


> Since you don't seem to get it I'll repeat it one more time. I HAVE ABOUT SEVENTY CHANNELS RIGHT NOW THAT I CANNOT RELY UPON MY TIVO HD TO RECORD. SEVENTY! THEY ARE NOT SIMULCAST IN DIGITAL AND WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE IN DIGITAL ON MY CABLE SYSTEM FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE! THEY INCLUDE MANY POPULAR CHANNELS some of which I listed in my earlier post.


:sigh: You don't have to shout, I understand your problem and agree that Tivo should fix it. But it has nothing to with this thread, which is about what to do when Comcast converts you over to the new digital channel lineup. No matter what package you have after the migration, you can get a cable card and tune all your channels. In HD or SD digital, not analog.

Please stop hijacking every thread that has the word analog in it.


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## cjv2 (Dec 16, 2009)

mattack said:


> ...I am now leaning towards putting cablecards in my S3 (swapping the existing S cards in my TivoHD & getting an M card -- they only had S cards that day when I went in)...


Last I heard an S3 requires 2 cards, whether S cards or M cards. A TivoHD can run on a single M-Card.


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## RonDawg (Jan 12, 2006)

cjv2 said:


> Last I heard an S3 requires 2 cards, whether S cards or M cards. A TivoHD can run on a single M-Card.


I think what mattack is saying is that he will take the S-cards out of his TiVoHD and put them in his S3, which I infer have none at all currently. He will then get a single M-card for the TiVoHD.


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## cjv2 (Dec 16, 2009)

RonDawg said:


> I think what mattack is saying is that he will take the S-cards out of his TiVoHD and put them in his S3, which I infer have none at all currently. He will then get a single M-card for the TiVoHD.


Ahhhhh. D'oh! That makes sense


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## Gavroche (May 27, 2007)

Adam1115 said:


> Why would you need a cablecard without digital service...?


Already answered but...

In my area, with comcast, there is no other way to get "Expanded Basic" service (which used to be analog) other than their STB, their DTA, or cable cards. Period.

So, in effect, you are _required _to get digital service to keep the same channels you're _already _paying for.

What was even worse for us is that our cable was free (included with rent) before the transition. Now we actually have to pay comcast every month for the digital package (though they do credit us the amount of the regular analog basic). Clever how the ended up getting money out of us every month for what we already got for free, aint it?

I will be the first one to agree that it sucks, but on the flipside, analog wasn't going to last forever. Time to "get with da digital" and just move on... frustrating, yes, but that's the way it is.

I'm just saying. . .


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> :sigh: You don't have to shout, I understand your problem and agree that Tivo should fix it. But it has nothing to with this thread, which is about what to do when Comcast converts you over to the new digital channel lineup. No matter what package you have after the migration, you can get a cable card and tune all your channels. In HD or SD digital, not analog.
> 
> Please stop hijacking every thread that has the word analog in it.


I will stop bringing up the gray screen bug at every opportunity I find to do so when:

A. TiVo fixes it or
B. My cable company no longer serves analog content that I desire to watch/record. I fully expect this to happen sometime prior to 2025.


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