# New Dish STB



## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Quite interesting.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/dish-game-changing-set-top-box-just-got-010521885.html


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

16 TUNERS!

No mention of hard drive size, though.

According to this

http://about.dish.com/press-release...d-4k-experience-most-simultaneous-recording-p

it's a mere 2TB.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> Quite interesting.
> https://www.yahoo.com/tech/dish-game-changing-set-top-box-just-got-010521885.html


As I noted in another thread it won a CES Award this year - just as the original Hopper did several years ago - something TiVo has not done this Century.

What was once the leader is now the follower.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

BLAH, dish packages and fees are ripoffs, who cares

Cox and Tivo pricing is way better!


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## GoodSpike (Dec 17, 2001)

unitron said:


> 16 TUNERS!
> 
> No mention of hard drive size, though.
> 
> ...


500 GB is enough for me, but at some point if you are going to use anywhere near 16 tuners, you're going to need more space.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Dish supports external drives (USB connected IIRC). Not sure if this is still true, but you used to not be able to playback from an external drive, you had move the recording back to the DVR's internal drive. However, you can attach the drive to ANY DVR on your account.


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

Diana Collins said:


> Dish supports external drives (USB connected IIRC). Not sure if this is still true, but you used to not be able to playback from an external drive, you had move the recording back to the DVR's internal drive. However, you can attach the drive to ANY DVR on your account.


You can play back from the External Hard Drive on the Hopper and the attached Joey. You cannot however play back from the External Hard Drive over the web (dishanywhere) or another Hopper you have on the account. Of course with 16 tuners most will just have Joeys and one Hopper.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As I noted in another thread it won a CES Award this year - just as the original Hopper did several years ago - something TiVo has not done this Century..


TiVo was a 2014 Design and Engineering Awards Honoree for both the TiVo Roamio Pro in the Home Audio-Video Components category, and the TiVo App for iOS in the Software & Mobile Apps category.

The Roamio also won CE Pro "Best for CEDIA" Award for "Home Theater Source Components/Media Servers/Streaming Media/DVRs in 2013 as well.

I think those are both in this century. 

Scott


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

foghorn2 said:


> BLAH, dish packages and fees are ripoffs, who cares
> 
> Cox and Tivo pricing is way better!


Not always. For a vacation home or motorhome, Dish is the only provider that still offers month to month, prepaid, no contract, pay only for the months you use service plan. Saves us a bunch at our vacation home. But for most folks that use it full time, yes they can get expensive.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

toricred said:


> You can play back from the External Hard Drive on the Hopper and the attached Joey. You cannot however play back from the External Hard Drive over the web (dishanywhere) or another Hopper you have on the account. Of course with 16 tuners most will just have Joeys and one Hopper.


One can playback from either Hopper (if one has another Hopper) on one account. You just need to select which Hopper you would like to access. However, only ONE stream at a time per account. This is connected to the Sling tech and its current bullet proof (legally speaking) for streaming without having to pay media or content owners. For more than one stream, Dish would have to pay the media and content owners or come to some agreement for that.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HerronScott said:


> TiVo was a 2014 Design and Engineering Awards Honoree for both the TiVo Roamio Pro in the Home Audio-Video Components category, and the TiVo App for iOS in the Software & Mobile Apps category.


Wow...the TiVo Roamio Pro was a CES "Honoree" (or a simple nomination) just 1 year after Dish Hopper won Best In Show for being able to automatically skip over commercials!

Yep.....TiVo is leading the field in technology, just like it did in 2000!


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Agreed, 2TB with what is a whole home DVR system capable of handling a large family seems not quite enough, even Dish subscribers agree. This was probably a cost decision by Dish who also probably feel that the _unlimited number_ of external HDD's one can transfer content to and playback access using a USB hub and with USB 3 speeds for those transfers, Dish probably didn't see the need to increase the cost of the box and generating more heat that may cause there boxes to fail, as TiVo has better fans in their boxes--except for the base Roamio which is pathetic method of cooling, and the Bolt needs to be bent for cooling, it seems. Dish external HDD is a better solution than TiVo's and makes possible tens of terabytes or more of content playable on a Dish system and that content is saved and protected should the internal HDD fail.

One thing lacking with a system this large is any built-in Profile or built-in way to separate each household member's recordings from all others, something along the lines of what the Sezmi DVR had. Yes, one can create Custom Folders for each person as has always been the case, and now "unlimited" number, I believe, but that is not very intuitive and takes a bit of effort with Dish as opposed to someone just selecting their Profile name and "forget it." And I believe it still does NOT group in folders _WITHIN_ folders, which can create something of a mess to deal with, so one may be better off just leaving all recordings in the common folder and use Custom Folders for other things like content or custom genres (default genres already exist for Sports, Movies, etc.)

Hopper 3 supports up to 7 TV's. At least the system can really handle a large family with those 16 tuners.

Part of the point of 16 tuners is to eliminate timer conflicts or having to clip one or another timer to accommodate all the requested recordings. An experience some TiVo users with even 6 tuners currently endure. With 16 tuners, one should almost never have a timer conflict resolution screen pop up, and remember, only ONE tuner is needed for ANY of the big 4 broadcast nets 24/7. So, a household should never have to have a second thought about setting timers with any consequences. It just works.

Another point to having such a large number of tuners (16) is the "Sports Bar Mode" that will, at first put up to 4 different channels on one TV, later to be updated to SIX different channels on one TV, while still serving others in the household who are recording and watching other channels at the same time. If Dish is gonna have a "Sports Bar" mode, they had better have AT LEAST 16 tuners to support it and other viewing at the same time.

And as far as the gripe about packages, Dish does have some of the lowest priced packages in the industry that are outside of the standard packages such as Family Pack, Welcome Pack and a few more.

So far the reports are positive about the Hopper 3 and its stability. For now, Dish is limiting each account to ONE Hopper 3, but they will allow multiple Hooper 3's on one account after the initial months of the H3. By at least Q4 of this year was stated as time Dish would allow more than one Hopper 3 per account. While Dish can technically accommodate a two Hooper 3 installs today, Q4 will introduce new switches that will enable two Hopper 3 installs more economically for Dish than today.

I am hoping that TiVo's coming "Power User" Bolt is more than just more tuners and the present QuickMode and Commercial Skip. Let's hope so. But the Roamio line is still a mighty fine DVR and to me, even superior to the Bolt. That is just an IMHO. The Ramio is still a state of the art DVR and I highly recommend it over the current Bolt. Sorry Bolt lovers, but I feel the Roamio is still so pinnacle.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

I have a 1tb usb my book external drive that was used on my mac that I no longer use. Anyway to use this for Tivo Roamio external drive?

I don't plan to buy one, but if I could get some use out of this one that would be nice. It's in the closet doing nothing.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

schatham said:


> I have a 1tb usb my book external drive that was used on my mac that I no longer use. Anyway to use this for Tivo Roamio external drive?
> 
> I don't plan to buy one, but if I could get some use out of this one that would be nice. It's in the closet doing nothing.


USB is not supported, only eSATA. I had one of those also. I took out the drive and put in my basic Roamio. A better solution for me.


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> One can playback from either Hopper (if one has another Hopper) on one account. You just need to select which Hopper you would like to access. However, only ONE stream at a time per account. This is connected to the Sling tech and its current bullet proof (legally speaking) for streaming without having to pay media or content owners. For more than one stream, Dish would have to pay the media and content owners or come to some agreement for that.


I was specifically referring to the ability to play recordings on an external drive over the web. The recordings on the internal drive of any Hopper can be played over the web.


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## TroyB (Oct 20, 2006)

I used to Love TiVo also. I still come on here to see if there have been any new developments with TiVo. Right now I have a Series 3 with lifetime sitting on my closet shelf because it is just not of any use anymore. I mainly stopped using Tivo because of the cable card fiasco, those who have been with Tivo for a while know what I am talking about. Cable companies didn't know anything about cable cards and especially when you needed 2 of them in one Tivo, then they came out with switched video where you had to have a box to get certain channels. I finally got tired of it and went back to cable.
We bought our house and WoW cable offered a whole house DVR system that would record 6 channels at the same time, then like cable companies like to do started skyrocketing their rates while taking channels away from you.
This is where Dish Network came in, I got their hopper system with the joey's in other rooms was able to record 8 channels at the same time and lock in price savings of about $50 a month for 2 years.
I just now got the hopper 3 which records 16 shows or up to 20 if you use the primetime feature at one time. How can you beat that.
Never have to worry about conflicts, it is 7 times the speed of the previous hopper and twice the speed of Tivo Bolt. I can scroll through the guide so fast you can't even see what it says, menus zip through with no lag at all. The ability to watch ANY channel including premiums like HBO etc. live, recorded or on demand anywhere in the world on my phone, ipad or laptop just like I am sitting in my recliner at home is a hugely nice feature.
Now the hopper 3 is 4k and 3D capable, although their is not much 4k stuff out there some ppv movies can be watched in 4k and Netflix content streaming 4k.

I hope TiVo sees what is going on with technology now and kicks it into gear and makes a machine that will compete properly. But face it, right now (to use Superbowl Sunday lingo) Tivo has dropped the ball and Dish picked it up and ran for the touchdown.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

Sounds nice but how much does it cost ?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jth tv said:


> Sounds nice but how much does it cost ?


$15 per month for service, the hardware costs are built into your package costs.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

How much does the whole package cost ?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jth tv said:


> How much does the whole package cost ?


If you are not a current Dish customer they have several teaser packages available. They all require a 2 year commitment, have a discounted package cost for the first year that auto increases to there full amount the second year, they also usually require auto pay, have 3 months of various premiums included that you have to cancel or they will auto bill you for them. All hardware is considered to be leased, installation and either one STB or their hopper DVR is included in package costs. DVR service fee and additional STBs are an additional/add on cost. Plus of course a bunch of taxes. Check their web site for details on what stations are in what packages and what they cost.


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## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

While it's nice their promo price for just 6 of the 8tvs I have now is higher then I pay now. Yes I guess if I sold my tivos I could say it's cheaper for three years but then their price goes up as the total cost of dish vs cable. over 7 dollars a month for each Joey is what nails the coffin in dish for me.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

TroyB said:


> I hope TiVo sees what is going on with technology now and kicks it into gear and makes a machine that will compete properly. But face it, right now (to use Superbowl Sunday lingo) Tivo has dropped the ball and Dish picked it up and ran for the touchdown.


Why do you think that they need to compete with the Hopper since you can only use the Hopper with Dish and you can only use the TiVo on cable (or OTA depending on which model)?

Scott


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HerronScott said:


> Why do you think that they need to compete with the Hopper since you can only use the Hopper with Dish and you can only use the TiVo on cable (or OTA depending on which model)?
> 
> Scott


Like TiVo, Echostar has been pitching their STBs to MSOs...and with the new STB proposal, who know what will happen. Would make it even easier to use a Hopper on cable.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

toricred said:


> I was specifically referring to the ability to play recordings on an external drive over the web. The recordings on the internal drive of any Hopper can be played over the web.


I misunderstood. You have a fair point, and this is a complaint by Dish subscribers as well. Dish is expanding its current software staff by at least and addtional 100 new employees to enable better things for H3 and SlingTV. Those software folks and SlingTV will be housed in an historic building in downtown Denver next to Union Station (the Central Station building, I think it is called). It would be good if those new 100 tech folk could fix it for us to access external HDD's via DishAnywhere.

One workaround, if accessing external HDD is really important to someone, is using a Slingbox instead. A Slingbox will function just as if you were in that room watcing and using that sat box, which means you can access external HDD's, now confirmed to be _THREE_ external HDD's connected at the same time. external HDD's can also be accessed by client Joey's if one does not want to connect a Slingbox to the DVR itself.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> If you are not a current Dish customer they have several teaser packages available. They all require a 2 year commitment, have a discounted package cost for the first year that auto increases to there full amount the second year, they also usually require auto pay, have 3 months of various premiums included that you have to cancel or they will auto bill you for them. All hardware is considered to be leased, installation and either one STB or their hopper DVR is included in package costs. DVR service fee and additional STBs are an additional/add on cost. Plus of course a bunch of taxes. Check their web site for details on what stations are in what packages and what they cost.


I think you are referring to DircTV who increases the bill to full regular price after the first year (which among other practices, is why the FTC is suing DirecTV for failure to disclose, and more bad behavior), Dish does not raise the bill to full regular price until the 2nd year ends as part of their 2 year price lock. But, at least with Dish, you have always gotten full disclosure should that ever not be the case; DirecTV, acording to the FTC, failed to provide full disclosure at that point, at least. Further, Dish now offers a 3 year price lock. BTW, with Dish, there is no monthly box fee for the FIRST (or most expensive) box on your system. I don't think any other MVPD has such a policy.

If one wants, they may purchase all their Dish equipment and become an "owner" of the equipment, but that is the BAD model of TiVo and why so many who would otherwise get TiVo just simpley can't afford it. There is no advantage paying retail prices that are even lower (for Dish) than TiVo retail equipment. Better do have the MVPD pay for that and either DirecTV or Dish is still FAR, FAR better in services, tech, and price than any of the big cable companies out there.

The reason OP is leaving cable was because of the hassle they make it for TiVo owners, a big problem for many, but not all, that was not addressed. At least for the OP, he is getting satisfaction (a system that is highly reliable to record and wathc TV) than his experience with TiVo and MSO's. This is not necessarily TiVo's fault, but it does not matter when one is not receiving the experience they feel is necessary for all the money they hand over to a cable company.

Maybe some who are joined at the hip with their TiVo's and who lack even a minumum of objectivity find nothing but a bed of roses with how the MSO's make having a TiVo a cumbersome experience at best for many people with CC's and those TA's. This forum is filled with many TiVo lovers just giving up because of how the MSO's handle and make using a TiVo difficult on their systems. The OP feels that he is was not getting his money's worth, but since his change to a new MVPD, now feels he is getting something in return for all his monthly payment, something he never felt he did with TiVo on an MSO.

Meanwhile, a TiVo outside the MSO environment, using it for OTA, is a splendid trouble free experience, but the OP wants those pay channels.

I don't think it is ever wise to try and tear down a satellite service only to end up inferring that cable companies are any better with pricing and when we all know how bad cable companies can be on price, service, and most important to the OP, handling a TiVo on their system so it is a reliable and postive experience. The OP is saying it was not, and he has made his decision to leave, while many other users of TiVo's on MSO's meets their standards economic _satisfaction_. None of us should ever fall into the trap and be a mouthpice for any of these cable companies when tryng to tear down their competion. It does not make sense.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Like TiVo, Echostar has been pitching their STBs to MSOs...and with the new STB proposal, who know what will happen. Would make it even easier to use a Hopper on cable.


I wouldn't have thought the technology was the same to be able to use a Dish STB on cable (now not the future) or do you mean they are trying to sell cable versions of their STB? Since they don't have to worry about CableCards for the cable company STB's any more, that's one thing they don't have to add to their units.

Scott


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> I think you are referring to DircTV who increases the bill to full regular price after the first year (which among other practices, is why the FTC is suing DirecTV for failure to disclose, and more bad behavior), Dish does not raise the bill to full regular price until the 2nd year ends as part of their 2 year price lock. But, at least with Dish, you have always gotten full disclosure should that ever not be the case; DirecTV, acording to the FTC, failed to provide full disclosure at that point, at least. Further, Dish now offers a 3 year price lock. BTW, with Dish, there is no monthly box fee for the FIRST (or most expensive) box on your system. I don't think any other MVPD has such a policy.


Perhaps we get different offers but as a Frontier customer (they resell Dish) I get multiple Dish offers a month, and they all have a 1 year reduced price with auto increase in year 2. Their web site offers 2 choices locked in full price (now for 3 years) or 1 year reduced price without any price lock in after the 1 year teaser.



Series3Sub said:


> If one wants, they may purchase all their Dish equipment and become an "owner" of the equipment, but that is the BAD model of TiVo and why so many who would otherwise get TiVo just simpley can't afford it. There is no advantage paying retail prices that are even lower (for Dish) than TiVo retail equipment. Better do have the MVPD pay for that and either DirecTV or Dish is still FAR, FAR better in services, tech, and price than any of the big cable companies out there.


You can buy some Dish equipment if you want but not any of the hopper DVRs. However as far as I can tell if you buy a STB or older DVR they charge you the same monthly price as if you leased the newest equipment. So the only case where owning might make sense is if you wanted more equipment than they provide for "free". The reason I noted it is leased is because if you quit Dish you have to give the DVR back and of course loose all your recordings. When I quit Dish way back when,, I kept my owned Dish DVR and could watch the shows already recorded which is how it works for people using TiVos with cable.



Series3Sub said:


> The reason OP is leaving cable was because of the hassle they make it for TiVo owners, a big problem for many, but not all, that was not addressed. At least for the OP, he is getting satisfaction (a system that is highly reliable to record and wathc TV) than his experience with TiVo and MSO's. This is not necessarily TiVo's fault, but it does not matter when one is not receiving the experience they feel is necessary for all the money they hand over to a cable company.
> 
> Maybe some who are joined at the hip with their TiVo's and who lack even a minumum of objectivity find nothing but a bed of roses with how the MSO's make having a TiVo a cumbersome experience at best for many people with CC's and those TA's. This forum is filled with many TiVo lovers just giving up because of how the MSO's handle and make using a TiVo difficult on their systems. The OP feels that he is was not getting his money's worth, but since his change to a new MVPD, now feels he is getting something in return for all his monthly payment, something he never felt he did with TiVo on an MSO.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with the above, I stopped recommending TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people long ago (I live in a TWC area). I know people who are happy with TWC, Dish & Direct and I know people who have had bad experiences with each of them and hate them completely. I personally never had a problem with Dish - just didn't find enough value in pay tv to keep it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

HerronScott said:


> I wouldn't have thought the technology was the same to be able to use a Dish STB on cable (now not the future) or do you mean they are trying to sell cable versions of their STB? Since they don't have to worry about CableCards for the cable company STB's any more, that's one thing they don't have to add to their units.
> 
> Scott


Correct you can not use the same STB for Dish (requires DBS tuners) & Cable (requries QAM tuners),unless it contains both types of tuners. But if cable cards went away or EchoStar wanted to make cable STBs/DVRs a tuner change isn't much.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

HerronScott said:


> I wouldn't have thought the technology was the same to be able to use a Dish STB on cable (now not the future) or do you mean they are trying to sell cable versions of their STB? Since they don't have to worry about CableCards for the cable company STB's any more, that's one thing they don't have to add to their units.
> 
> Scott


Correct. Modifying their equipment to work in an MSO environment. Obviously they haven't gotten much traction On that level, but if all STBs end up compatible, then it's an easy jump on a Retail level.

If a Hopper worked with cable, I'd be there in a second compared to TiVo.



atmuscarella said:


> Correct you can not use the same STB for Dish (requires DBS tuners) & Cable (requries QAM tuners),unless it contains both types of tuners. But if cable cards went away or EchoStar wanted to make cable STBs/DVRs a tuner change isn't much.


Exactly


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Correct you can not use the same STB for Dish (requires DBS tuners) & Cable (requries QAM tuners),unless it contains both types of tuners. But if cable cards went away or EchoStar wanted to make cable STBs/DVRs a tuner change isn't much.


Echostar (separate from Dish) already makes the Channelmaster DVR+, and used to make the DTVPal DVR. I see no reason they could not also make STBs for cable.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

unitron said:


> 16 TUNERS!
> 
> No mention of hard drive size, though.
> 
> ...


Yes, 2 TB does seem anemic, until you remember:

1. Dish content is encoded in MPEG4, so you get more bang for your buck than you get with with OTA and most cable TV content.

2. Dish content is fairly low bandwidth.

Combine these two, and 2 TB in a Hopper is probably equivalent to 3 TB on most Tivos.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> Yes, 2 TB does seem anemic, until you remember:
> 
> 1. Dish content is encoded in MPEG4, so you get more bang for your buck than you get with with OTA and most cable TV content.
> 
> ...


So that means with 16 tuners it would take less than 30 hours to fill it up


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## lloydp211 (Nov 10, 2015)

ncted said:


> Yes, 2 TB does seem anemic, until you remember:
> 
> 1. Dish content is encoded in MPEG4, so you get more bang for your buck than you get with with OTA and most cable TV content.
> 
> ...


Add that you can also add an external drive that adds to storage, is tied to the account which means you don't lose recordings on the external drive if you later replace the Hopper. Essentially unlimited storage

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I pretty much agree with the above, I stopped recommending TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people long ago (I live in a TWC area). I know people who are happy with TWC, Dish & Direct and I know people who have had bad experiences with each of them and hate them completely. I personally never had a problem with Dish - just didn't find enough value in pay tv to keep it.


Perhaps I'm lucky; as a Verizon FiOS customer, I had ZERO CableCard issues. Family members with Cablevision had no issue either.

Maybe it's just because of the metro area I'm in, but TiVo works splendidly. I'm seeing lots of folks actually switch TO TiVo instead of away from it.

In fact, at the local FiOS store, the salesperson there told me that for every CableCard that comes back, he hands out about 15 of 'em. Said he's seeing TiVo adoption way on the rise. Granted, that's one guy and one anecdotal story does not a trend make ....

But I have no issue recommending TiVo to family and friends. It's working better today than anything I've had since .... Well, my original DirecTiVo's.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

dmurphy said:


> Perhaps I'm lucky; as a Verizon FiOS customer, I had ZERO CableCard issues. Family members with Cablevision had no issue either.
> 
> Maybe it's just because of the metro area I'm in, but TiVo works splendidly. I'm seeing lots of folks actually switch TO TiVo instead of away from it.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately that antidotal evidence does not match TiVo's 10K numbers or NCTA's CableCard numbers submitted monthly to the FCC.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

atmuscarella said:


> If you are not a current Dish customer they have several teaser packages available. They all require a 2 year commitment, have a discounted package cost for the first year that auto increases to there full amount the second year, they also usually require auto pay, have 3 months of various premiums included that you have to cancel or they will auto bill you for them. All hardware is considered to be leased, installation and either one STB or their hopper DVR is included in package costs. DVR service fee and additional STBs are an additional/add on cost. Plus of course a bunch of taxes. Check their web site for details on what stations are in what packages and what they cost.


You describing Directv not DISH. No increases for three years, the premiums are controlled online in your account, you can set it to stop after the free period, and now there is often a selection to continue at a reduced rate, all user controlled. I won't go over everything but much of what you posted is not correct.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

ncted said:


> Yes, 2 TB does seem anemic, until you remember:
> 
> 1. Dish content is encoded in MPEG4, so you get more bang for your buck than you get with with OTA and most cable TV content.
> 
> ...


True but it is also true it probably should be more. It does make a difference that it uses external hard drives, more than one can be attached at a time. And remember recordings are not made across hard drives as TIVO is, so you can remove a hard drive with no consequences on remaining recordings. Also using a hard drive allows for all but one model receiver to be intermixed to all on your account. (Moved to another receiver and play back the recorded material)


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> You describing Directv not DISH. No increases for three years, the premiums are controlled online in your account, you can set it to stop after the free period, and now there is often a selection to continue at a reduced rate, all user controlled. I won't go over everything but much of what you posted is not correct.


Yes they have the pay one price lock in for 3 year option now also, but recently received another offer via Frontier (they use Dish as their triple play option in my area) with in the last 2 weeks that was exactly what I described. Based on how their web site has changed since the I posted the post you quoted my guess is they are transitioning away from the reduced first year price to the pay same price for 3 year deal wonder how long it will take Frontier to send me another offer with the newer deal.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Yes they have the pay one price lock in for 3 year option now also, but recently received another offer via Frontier (they use Dish as their triple play option in my area) with in the last 2 weeks that was exactly what I described. Based on how their web site has changed since the I posted the post you quoted my guess is they are transitioning away from the reduced first year price to the pay same price for 3 year deal wonder how long it will take Frontier to send me another offer with the newer deal.


I wouldn't do the deal through Frontier. It is adding a third party to everything you need to do with Dish, and Frontier really doesn't know much about satellite TV.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

ncted said:


> I wouldn't do the deal through Frontier. It is adding a third party to everything you need to do with Dish, and Frontier really doesn't know much about satellite TV.


Bundles


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Bundles


Doesn't matter. Not worth the trouble, especially with Frontier.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ncted said:


> I wouldn't do the deal through Frontier. It is adding a third party to everything you need to do with Dish, and Frontier really doesn't know much about satellite TV.


I have no intention of subbing to Dish anyway. But being a Frontier customer I get offers mailed to me at least 2X a month once with my bill and at least one more some other time during the month -all trying to get me to add Dish to my Frontier service. Seems like they should have figured out they are wasting their money by now.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> I have no intention of subbing to Dish anyway. But being a Frontier customer I get offers mailed to me at least 2X a month once with my bill and at least one more some other time during the month -all trying to get me to add Dish to my Frontier service. Seems like they should have figured out they are wasting their money by now.


LOL. I get Frontier mailings trying to get me to sign up for their 6Mb high-speed internet service while I am already a 24Mb customer. When I had Dish, I would get at least 1 mailing a week. Their marketing departments don't know what their billing departments are doing and vice versa.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Mailing?! You guys don't do e-billing with no mailing?

ok, I admit I get a spam Comcast physical mail every couple of months... but nowhere near as much as you guys do.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

mattack said:


> Mailing?!
> ok, I admit I get a spam Comcast physical mail every couple of months...


If you keep yelling, you can probably stop that too. TWC has different levels of do not send and now I get Nothing from them.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

mattack said:


> Mailing?! You guys don't do e-billing with no mailing?
> 
> ok, I admit I get a spam Comcast physical mail every couple of months... but nowhere near as much as you guys do.


I do utilize e-billing with no mailing, but apparently, the marketing departments of these huge companies never bother to check whether I am on any of their no mailing lists.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jth tv said:


> If you keep yelling, you can probably stop that too. TWC has different levels of do not send and now I get Nothing from them.


You're right. I bet just calling up the regular 1800comcast number wouldn't be too productive.. Maybe using their twitter handle, which they seem to answer more often, would help..


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

foghorn2 said:


> BLAH, dish packages and fees are ripoffs, who cares
> 
> Cox and Tivo pricing is way better!


You need to do your math again with recent pricing changes. Dish now has 3 year price guaranteed plans.

For example, I am with Comcast. Digital starter + tivo is $7 MORE expensive then Dish 120 with hopper. And the hopper 3 is really a marvel of DVR engineering, even the newest Tivo's don't compete.

I am making the change today, because once i add in the value of netflix paid for a year and the $200 gift card they throw in I am saving about $22/month over Comcast+Tivo+Netflix.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

tampa8 said:


> True but it is also true it probably should be more. It does make a difference that it uses external hard drives, more than one can be attached at a time. And remember recordings are not made across hard drives as TIVO is, so you can remove a hard drive with no consequences on remaining recordings. Also using a hard drive allows for all but one model receiver to be intermixed to all on your account. (Moved to another receiver and play back the recorded material)


Why does this matter? Attach a 4TB external drive via USB, done. 2TB is a perfect middle ground to include in the unit to keep costs down and will satisfy most folk. If you need more no one makes it easier then Dish.


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## JTHOJNICKI (Nov 30, 2015)

Have to agree about the Dish pricing. I'm saving over $100 per month by switching to TiVo & a Comcast bundle. Dish's equipment fees on top of their programming are ridiculous. I needed 3 of the original Hoppers in order to have enough tuners and 6 Joeys for all my TVs. I replaced them with a Bolt on an OTA antennae, a Roamio Pro on Comcast and 6 Minis. Not missing Dish; especially during storms.

Primetime Anytime was nice and AutoHop was good at first, but is now so watered down due to the new content provider limitations that it sucks. It never covered non-network (i.e. cable) channels anyway.

Dish wants to make money off both the equipment and the content. A lose-lose proposition for the consumer.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

JTHOJNICKI said:


> Have to agree about the Dish pricing. I'm saving over $100 per month by switching to TiVo & a Comcast bundle. Dish's equipment fees on top of their programming are ridiculous. I needed 3 of the original Hoppers in order to have enough tuners and 6 Joeys for all my TVs. I replaced them with a Bolt on an OTA antennae, a Roamio Pro on Comcast and 6 Minis. Not missing Dish; especially during storms.
> 
> Primetime Anytime was nice and AutoHop was good at first, but is now so watered down due to the new content provider limitations that it sucks. It never covered non-network (i.e. cable) channels anyway.
> 
> Dish wants to make money off both the equipment and the content. A lose-lose proposition for the consumer.


You are apparently unaware of the new Hopper 3 which would have solved all of your issues. 1 master DVR (hopper 3 with 16 tuners and 4x the storage of the bolt) + 6 joeys. The 4k joey and wireless joey are especially nice.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

JTHOJNICKI said:


> Have to agree about the Dish pricing. I'm saving over $100 per month by switching to TiVo & a Comcast bundle. Dish's equipment fees on top of their programming are ridiculous. I needed 3 of the original Hoppers in order to have enough tuners and 6 Joeys for all my TVs. I replaced them with a Bolt on an OTA antennae, a Roamio Pro on Comcast and 6 Minis. Not missing Dish; especially during storms.
> 
> Primetime Anytime was nice and AutoHop was good at first, but is now so watered down due to the new content provider limitations that it sucks. It never covered non-network (i.e. cable) channels anyway.
> 
> Dish wants to make money off both the equipment and the content. A lose-lose proposition for the consumer.


In my experience, Dish equipment fees are less than the competition, and certainly the programming costs are. Given that the equipment is so much better than the alternatives in the Pay TV space, it is worth paying less for it. I don't have first hand experience with Comcast and maybe they are cheaper in some scenarios, but any company scraping the bottom of the barrel with TWC is one to avoid in my book.

Is Dish perfect? no, but in a room full of mostly 1s and 2s, I'll take the 4 any day.


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

I just finished with Dish and the problem with their pricing is when you add in broadband service. Comcast gives deep discounts when you get both TV and broadband from them. I'm now paying the same for both that I paid for just Dish before. It will be $20/month more in 2 years when the promo ends.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

JTHOJNICKI said:


> Have to agree about the Dish pricing. I'm saving over $100 per month by switching to TiVo & a Comcast bundle. Dish's equipment fees on top of their programming are ridiculous. I needed 3 of the original Hoppers in order to have enough tuners and 6 Joeys for all my TVs. I replaced them with a Bolt on an OTA antennae, a Roamio Pro on Comcast and 6 Minis. Not missing Dish; especially during storms.
> 
> Primetime Anytime was nice and AutoHop was good at first, but is now so watered down due to the new content provider limitations that it sucks. It never covered non-network (i.e. cable) channels anyway.
> 
> Dish wants to make money off both the equipment and the content. A lose-lose proposition for the consumer.


Agree. I was a Dish subscriber but moved to Comcast / Tivo to save money. A lot of money.

I have one 4 tuner Premier (lifetime, purchased used for $369), three lifetime minis, and a spare 4 tuner lifetime premiere (purchased used for $349) for later. My Comcast bill is $110 / month for 2 years, including HBO and 75/10 internet. In 2 years my bill will increase by $40. If I remained with Dish, my combined TV / internet bill would be $190. Moving to Comcast / Tivo was a no brainer. If I put my spare Premier into use, my bill rises by $10 / month.

Dish wants $15 / month for the Hopper DVR experience plus $7 / month per Joey. My bill for that, had I remained with Dish and upgraded to Hopper plus Joeys, would be $80 for internet from Comcast plus - to Dish - $89 for TV, $15 for Hopper DVR, $21 for 3 Joeys, or $205 per month.

If you own Tivo, even if you're paying a monthly DVR fee, Comcast / Tivo with lifetime minis is the best deal in town. The others aren't even close. Toss in non-commercial hulu and why bother with Dish or Direct TV or X1 rentals?


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

riekl said:


> You are apparently unaware of the new Hopper 3 which would have solved all of your issues. 1 master DVR (hopper 3 with 16 tuners and 4x the storage of the bolt) + 6 joeys. The 4k joey and wireless joey are especially nice.


Add up the monthly fees for a Hopper 3 and all those Joeys, and over the life of the equipment you could have bought a Roamio Pro and 6 minis (and had something with a little resale value at the end).

Satellite pricing (Dish or DirecTV) is really no different from cable. They make huge profits on the hardware/"outlet" fees. For us, moving from satellite (DirecTV in our case, although we were Dish subscribers at one time too) got us TV, Internet and phone (Verizon FiOS) for less than we were paying DirecTV for TV alone. We broke even on the cost of 2 Roamio Pros and 5 minis after 16 months and have pocketed $90/month since then. We just renewed with Verizon for another 2 years and our monthly cost only rose $10 (one discount was no longer available) so we will continue to save $80 per month versus satellite, and we have already had 12 tuners, with 6TB of storage, for 2 years. Not to mention that with TiVo, we have been able to archive off onto our Plex server any recordings we want to keep long term, freeing that space on the DVRs for new recordings.

Which brings us to an important point. While many of us use DVRs to keep recordings around for a long time, we need to understand that these are special purpose computers and, like all computers with hard drives, you stand to lose anything that isn't backed up. To the best of my knowledge, no cable or satellite supplied DVR allows you to back up their contents (perhaps cable supplied TiVos do, but the DirecTV TiVo-based THR-22 does not).


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jim1971 said:


> Agree. I was a Dish subscriber but moved to Comcast / Tivo to save money. A lot of money.
> 
> I have one 4 tuner Premier (lifetime, purchased used for $369), three lifetime minis, and a spare 4 tuner lifetime premiere (purchased used for $349) for later. My Comcast bill is $110 / month for 2 years, including HBO and 75/10 internet. In 2 years my bill will increase by $40. If I remained with Dish, my combined TV / internet bill would be $190. Moving to Comcast / Tivo was a no brainer. If I put my spare Premier into use, my bill rises by $10 / month.
> 
> ...


I would dispute almost every point you made. First "$80 for internet from Comcast" what ?? What state do you live in? Here in Michigan you can get 25 meg Comcast for $20/month standalone or blast (75 meg) for $30/month. You can't compare 'retail' prices no one actually pays those 

Same with your Dish pricing. Dish is $45/month for 3 years for TV + 36 for your hopper/3 joeys and you are at $111/month for everything.

The tivo lifetime minis are a pretty good deal, still a 17 month return on investment though.

Every person will have there own opinion and economics but if you look at the current deal from Dish, it beats comcast/tivo for pretty much everyone. Not only do you get locked in pricing, you get free netflix for a year ($120 savings) and a $200 gift card, combine that with using a referall code ($50) and here is the math :

Hopper 3 + 6 joeys + 120 channel package = $45/month + $57/month equipment (hopper + 6 joey) = 2,448$ - $200 gift card - $120 netflix = 2,128$ or $88.67/month to have 7 tv's.

Add in $30 for internet from Comcast and you are at $118.67/month for 2 years with $0 in upfront cost or risk and you have a MUCH better DVR then a Premier.

You are paying $110/month + $714 up front (not even counting the 2nd premier) that $714 is $29.75/month over 24 months. Or $139.75 + netflix.


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## JTHOJNICKI (Nov 30, 2015)

The point is that with Dish, I was paying $165/month for the 3 Hoppers, 6 Joeys and Dish 200 programming PLUS $80/month to Comcast for Internet. Switched to a Comcast Internet/television bundle for $89/month for the next 2 years - $130/month thereafter. Spent about $1,000 on TiVo equipment (Roamio Pro with lifetime, 500GB Bolt with a 3TB upgrade, and 6 Minis). Payback is less than 1 year. I have 10 tuners, HDTV DVR access on all 8 televisions and all the same channels with no rain-fade. I put the Bolt on an OTA antenna to split the recording workload and eliminate the need for a second cable outlet. Works great! The response time of the TiVos compared to the original Hoppers is like night and day. Although the Hopper3 may be intriguing; the $7 monthly cost of each Joey is ridiculous. They should be a one-time cost like the similar TiVo Mini - Dish is just greedy.

I've been running both systems concurrently for the last two months to give me time to archive my old Hopper recordings. Other than the HD capture process; I haven't used Dish at all and can't stand to because of the slow Hopper response. Bye Bye Dish!

On top of all that I am also getting a $2.50/month equipment credit from Comcast for the Roamio Pro.


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## JTHOJNICKI (Nov 30, 2015)

DVR recording backup with Dish is a real problem, but it can be done. I just connected an HDMI splitter to my Hopper and fed the second HDMI output into a Hauppauge Colossus capture card. I can capture HD content onto my computer - it just has to be done in real-time. The same solution will allow me to record VOD content from a TiVo Mini.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Dish gives some pretty good credits for long time customers and of course new customer deals. I've been with dish for 16 years and had my roamio and minis for ota for a year, mainly because of the crappy job dish does with ota guide info. 

I started to upgrade to the H3 but with the recent price increases I was up to $82 a month for Cox 100mb internet and $103 for Dish and the H3 and Joey would raise that even more, although Dish has given me a bunch of discounts for the last few years that brought it down to $85 a month. That discount expires in 2 months and Cox offered me Advanced TV plus 100mb Internet with free receiver or cable card for $99 a month, $109 with taxes. That's just too hard for Dish to match and for me to ignore since I already have the tivos. Now if I had to use Cox equipment, I probably would have ignored the offer. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> I would dispute almost every point you made. First "$80 for internet from Comcast" what ?? What state do you live in? Here in Michigan you can get 25 meg Comcast for $20/month standalone or blast (75 meg) for $30/month. You can't compare 'retail' prices no one actually pays those
> 
> Same with your Dish pricing. Dish is $45/month for 3 years for TV + 36 for your hopper/3 joeys and you are at $111/month for everything.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? Why are you arguing with simple addition - is elementary grade school arithmetic now eligible for internet conspiracy trolling?

By the way, I am taking into consideration my former dish pricing with no intro benefits. I was a 15 year customer. I was also considering how my intro Comcast benefits PAID FOR the tivo equipment with a lot left over. After the intro benefits expire, I will still be $40 per month ahead. Go conspire on that for awhile.

After your Dish intro savings go away, you are paying a lot for both Dish and internet from Comcast or wherever. The rentals are what get you. Comcast internet is a great value of you get tv with it (and no rental fees.)


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jim1971 said:


> What are you talking about? Why are you arguing with simple addition - is elementary grade school arithmetic now eligible for internet conspiracy trolling?
> 
> By the way, I am taking into consideration my former dish pricing with no intro benefits. I was a 15 year customer. I was also considering how my intro Comcast benefits PAID FOR the tivo equipment with a lot left over. After the intro benefits expire, I will still be $40 per month ahead. Go conspire on that for awhile.
> 
> After your Dish intro savings go away, you are paying a lot for both Dish and internet from Comcast or wherever. The rentals are what get you. Comcast internet is a great value of you get tv with it (and no rental fees.)


I think the problem here is you aren't aware of Dish's current promotions. The pricing is locked in for 3 years, there is no increase in pricing. You are trying to compare "new" comcast pricing to your "old" retail pricing at Dish.

If you compare Dish new customer pricing to Comcast+tivo new customer pricing, the Dish packages will save you money (significantly) over a 2 year period.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> I think the problem here is you aren't aware of Dish's current promotions. The pricing is locked in for 3 years, there is no increase in pricing. You are trying to compare "new" comcast pricing to your "old" retail pricing at Dish.
> 
> If you compare Dish new customer pricing to Comcast+tivo new customer pricing, the Dish packages will save you money (significantly) over a 2 year period.


No, I'm comparing total cost of ownership to total cost of ownership. You're conflating temporary sale prices with who knows exactly what.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jim1971 said:


> No, I'm comparing total cost of ownership to total cost of ownership. You're conflating temporary sale prices with who knows exactly what.


No .. I was comparing total cost of ownership as well, these aren't temporary sale prices.

Lets look at a 2 year TCO using your own numbers

You are paying $110*24 to comcast + 349 for the premier and $345 for the 3 mini's, thats a TCO of $3,334 for 3 years

As a Dish customer your cost would be $45(package)+$36(equipment)+$40(internet) * 36 - $200 gift card = $2,704 TCO or $600 less.

Even taking it out to 3 years, your TCO at comcast is $4,654, with Dish it is $4,156. None of these numbers take into account the free year of Netflix either.

Again enjoy your comcast, but the fact is you ARE paying more then you would as a Dish sub, and you have 4 year old equipment. It's too bad we didn't meet sooner I could have sold you my Roamio and Tivo Mini's that i'm dropping to go to Dish to save money


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Only new customers get that pricing from Dish. I've been with Dish just over 15 years owned all my equipment and never been in contract and can't get that new customer price. The best I can get is $20 off a month, which I've been getting for 2 years and I've had my dvr fee waived for 4 or 5 years now. Upgrading to the H3 from 722 wipes most of that cost savings out. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> No .. I was comparing total cost of ownership as well, these aren't temporary sale prices.
> 
> Lets look at a 2 year TCO using your own numbers
> 
> ...


???????????????????

repeat

????????????????????

The tivo hardware lasts forever, not 3 years.

The dish deal you spec out is an intro deal, which rises a lot after it expires.

Yes, internet beyond email only speeds costs some money.

$110 / month for all that is great. $150 in 2 years afterward is still great. (Actually I'll be eligible for another entry deal in 2 years that gives me all main premium channels for $150 for 2 years. $150 for all is better than $150 for only HBO).

Dish, and Comcast, and DirecTV might be tolerable if rentals weren't involved.You really need to differentiate between entry deals and everyday costs.

On a side note, what is it about me that is a call to all trolls? I think my comments all start out pretty mild but all seem to bring out the weirdos.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

riekl said:


> I would dispute almost every point you made. First "$80 for internet from Comcast" what ?? What state do you live in? Here in Michigan you can get 25 meg Comcast for $20/month standalone or blast (75 meg) for $30/month. You can't compare 'retail' prices no one actually pays those


I'm not aware of anyone getting Performance Internet-only service here in VA for $20. And certainly not as an existing user!

Published price for Performance in our January 2016 rate chart is $69.95 (25Mbps), Performance Pro is $79.95 and Blast! is $82.95.

Scott


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## toricred (Mar 9, 2004)

I live in a small town in New Mexico and $80/month for broadband is dirt cheap. Not all of us have competition to drive down the prices. Our choices for anything over 7mb are Comcast or nothing. That certainly doesn't help keep the cost reasonable.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The fundamental problem that DirecTV and DISH are up against is that Comcast and other cable providers are using the monopoly powers in an anti-competitive and illegal fashion under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act to make DirecTV and DISH services uneconomical.

Internet alone from Comcast is about the same price as a Double Play promo deal, so what do you think people are going to get? Satellite only makes sense if you have VDSL or fiber available, but a lot of people don't, even in areas that have some VDSL and fiber coverage.

Given this, DISH can't compete on price in Comcast monopoly areas, and DirecTV becomes a MASSIVE premium over bundling with Comcast for their superior service (but it is *that* superior)?

I also don't like DISH because they don't compete in the NYC market or in Connecticut. They will install, but they may as well not exist, because they don't have any of our sports channels. DirecTV, meanwhile, has the most comprehensive channel lineup of pretty much any provider.


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## JTHOJNICKI (Nov 30, 2015)

I had been a loyal Dish customer for almost 20 years; the discounts I've been offered have been insulting - even after calling in.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Having Dish does make a lot more economic sense if you don't have to go with the cable company for internet, and I feel lucky I do not have those handcuffs on. 

I was a Dish customer for years, and all I had to do to keep my promo pricing is call to "cancel" after my commitment was up, get sent to retention, and I would get the new customer deal, with new equipment, just for agreeing to another 2 years. Plus I would get regular promotion pricing on premium channels, free movie rentals, etc.

One of the best parts for me as a Dish customer was I could do everything but the initial install myself. I didn't have to wait around for a truck roll every time I got a new DVR. They just sent it to me, and I took care of it. If I wanted to run my Joeys over my ethernet network instead of Moca, that was my choice, and, since there wasn't an installer there to tell me otherwise, that is what I did. After dealing with the fumbling idiots from TWC and DirecTV over the years, I found I preferred Dish. 

If the FCC kills or significantly impairs OTA, Dish is likely where I would go for TV service. The wildcard there being Google Fiber coming to my neighborhood, but I don't know much about the TV part of the service.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I think the best deal is to switch providers every 1-2 years. That way you maximize the monthly discount of the new customer incentives you get from signing up with a new provider.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

trip1eX said:


> I think the best deal is to switch providers every 1-2 years. That way you maximize the monthly discount of the new customer incentives you get from signing up with a new provider.


Yes, although this is tempered by the strain it may put on your marriage or other familial or roommate relationships. My wife hates switching with a passion.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

HerronScott said:


> I'm not aware of anyone getting Performance Internet-only service here in VA for $20. And certainly not as an existing user!
> 
> Published price for Performance in our January 2016 rate chart is $69.95 (25Mbps), Performance Pro is $79.95 and Blast! is $82.95.
> 
> Scott


Performance Internet is $34.99 in Richmond VA I just looked it up. It doesn't matter if you are an existing user you can get the new user promos I've done this for the last 5 years. When my "new user" promo expires I call and complain, I get a supervisor, and I get the new user promo every time. Only once did they make me go to step 2 which was to submit an order for cancelation, and the next day an order in my wifes name with the same address to get the new user promo.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jim1971 said:


> ???????????????????
> 
> repeat
> 
> ...


There is nothing trolling about my response, I was very factual you just don't want to look at the numbers. Your hardware does not last forever, the premiers are already 3 years old another 3 years out of them is being optimistic. Especially as 4k starts to get rolled out. Anyone doing price comparisons for pay tv servers would do a 2 or 3 year TCO which is what I did above proving you are actually paying more then had you gone with Dish but thats your choice to pay more.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

riekl said:


> There is nothing trolling about my response, I was very factual you just don't want to look at the numbers. Your hardware does not last forever, the premiers are already 3 years old another 3 years out of them is being optimistic. Especially as 4k starts to get rolled out. Anyone doing price comparisons for pay tv servers would do a 2 or 3 year TCO which is what I did above proving you are actually paying more then had you gone with Dish but thats your choice to pay more.


You should have actually figured 3 DVRs to have the 16 tuner capability of the Dish Hopper.

As thus, Comcast would cost much more than what you calculated.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I think the DISH vs cable comparisons could be better.

Dish isn't the only one to offer promos. Typically cable companies also have a promo price/deal for new customers for the 1st year. 

And as was touched on, after 3 years, your rental fees for a dvr system you own, come off the books assuming you pro-rate its cost over 3 years. Pretty sure the Roamio line is almost 3 years old now. Anyone buying day 1 would have "paid it off" by the end of this summer. The Premiere must be coming up on 5 yrs old at least. 

Next pricing varies by region. So you could get a case where satellite is cheaper for one guy in one part of the country compared to cable. ...while, for 2nd person in another part of the country, cable could be cheaper.

And pricing varies by package. Granted most have very similar packages but there's always a channel or two that could raise or lower your cost by $10-$20/mo if you so desire it or don't desire it.

Last there is no reason internet should be included in the comparisons. That just makes it more difficult to follow especially when one is quoting internet at $30/mo and the other is quoting it at $80/mo.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncted said:


> Yes, although this is tempered by the strain it may put on your marriage or other familial or roommate relationships. My wife hates switching with a passion.


Depends on the options. If you're in Metro Boston, for example, and you can switch between RCN, Comcast, and FIOS, the switch should be very painless, just swap modems/ONTs and CableCards. If you're switching from satellite to cable, it would be pretty painful, since you'd have to switch DVRs.



trip1eX said:


> Last there is no reason internet should be included in the comparisons. That just makes it more difficult to follow especially when one is quoting internet at $30/mo and the other is quoting it at $80/mo.


Internet is extremely important, as it varies widely from provider to provider in terms of how they bundle. Many smaller cable companies like CableVision and Atlantic Broadband seem to almost be encouraging satellite and cord cutting, as their margins aren't very good on TV anymore, due to their relatively small negotiating power, while Comcast is extremely aggressive in their bundling, and are clearly in violation of the Sherman Antitrust act in use their monopoly in an anti-competitive way against DISH and DirecTV.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

riekl said:


> I would dispute almost every point you made. First "$80 for internet from Comcast" what ?? What state do you live in? Here in Michigan you can get 25 meg Comcast for $20/month standalone or blast (75 meg) for $30/month.


How can you get that? I looked on xfinity.com for my address (while not logged in) for a new customer, and the LOWEST I see is $29.99/month for a year for 10 Mbps.

(I already have comcast for cable + TV, and think it's a reasonably priced combo that I have...)


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

riekl said:


> Performance Internet is $34.99 in Richmond VA I just looked it up. It doesn't matter if you are an existing user you can get the new user promos I've done this for the last 5 years. When my "new user" promo expires I call and complain, I get a supervisor, and I get the new user promo every time. Only once did they make me go to step 2 which was to submit an order for cancelation, and the next day an order in my wifes name with the same address to get the new user promo.


That's only for the first 12 months after which it goes to $49.99 and then to the regular price of $66.95 for Richmond. So you can only do this by playing games with promos and cancellations.

Scott


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Internet is extremely important, as it varies widely from provider to provider in terms of how they bundle. Many smaller cable companies like CableVision and Atlantic Broadband seem to almost be encouraging satellite and cord cutting, as their margins aren't very good on TV anymore, due to their relatively small negotiating power, while Comcast is extremely aggressive in their bundling, and are clearly in violation of the Sherman Antitrust act in use their monopoly in an anti-competitive way against DISH and DirecTV.


Not sure what you're saying here.

Margins have nothing to do with comparing the price of content providers.

INternet is a separate service from a video service.

Much more clear in a comparison of video services to mention bundle discounts etc instead.


----------



## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

HerronScott said:


> That's only for the first 12 months after which it goes to $49.99 and then to the regular price of $66.95 for Richmond. So you can only do this by playing games with promos and cancellations.
> 
> Scott


You are correct .. so ? Once a year you play the game and reset for 39.99. Its worth a phone call once a year to me to save $27/month


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Not sure what you're saying here.
> 
> Margins have nothing to do with comparing the price of content providers.
> 
> ...


It is a little hard to follow what you are saying in this and the post that Bigg quoted.

But I would think that because of bundling deals someone would have to compare the cost of all the services (video, Internet, telephone, & hardware) they wanted combined to compare various providers. Just comparing one providers video costs to anther providers video costs doesn't tell you much if you are going to have to pay substantially more/less for Internet, telephone, and/or hardware depending on who your video provider is.

The same is true when a person looks at "cord cutting" because of bundling there are times when "cord shaving" would actually save someone more money.


----------



## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

I think i've been going at this all wrong, instead of me trying to convince you that you are spending to much I'll use my situation and you try to tell me how Comcast/Tivo would in any way be cheaper promotions or not  

3 TV's , 2 of them 4k.

With Dish I am getting Hopper 3, 4k Joey, Wireless Joey along with the 240 channel package with price locked in for 3 years.

My cost is $0 install, $0 equipment(upfront), $29 / month equipment access fees, $65 / month for the 240 package. I am also getting Netflix free for a yeaer which I already have so this is a savings of $120. I am also getting a $200 gift card, and $5 off for the first 10 months for referall.

My TCO for 2 years is (29+65)*24 = 2256 - $200gc - $120netflix = 1936 or $80.67/month on average.

Comcast/Tivo can't touch this TCO even with there new user promotions.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

riekl said:


> I think i've been going at this all wrong, instead of me trying to convince you that you are spending to much I'll use my situation and you try to tell me how Comcast/Tivo would in any way be cheaper promotions or not
> 
> 3 TV's , 2 of them 4k.
> 
> ...


Your "Net" monthly costs is less than my parents pay dish for the same package with just 2 HD STBs (no DVRs). If your Bill/costs actually ends up being that low you have a great deal.

But with telephone & Internet my parents pay something north of $150/mo so if they actually lived someplace where they could get cable (they don't) they would be comparing what cables triple play package would be, which the last time I check was around $100/mo all in for something better than what they have for the teaser year.


----------



## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> Not sure what you're saying here.
> 
> Margins have nothing to do with comparing the price of content providers.
> 
> ...


They absolutely do. Comcast, Charter, TWC, and Cox have a lot of negotiating power over the TV contracts, so they are getting much better pricing on the content than Atlantic Broadband, RCN, CableVision and the like. Thus, the smaller providers are less likely to force bundle TV in with the internet. Comcast is making a fortune on TV, some of the small providers are barely making anything. Thus, the smaller providers in some cases don't even want to do TV. CableVision has said that they would rather just do broadband only, so they don't push bundles. Comcast makes a fortune on TV, so they are forcing bundles down people's throats.

No, internet isn't separate at all when it costs $65/mo to get internet only, and $90/mo to get a bundle deal with TV and internet, and the cable company is the only way you can get decent internet at home. Comcast's illegal bundling practices make it impossible for DirecTV to compete, as they can't charge $25/mo for their video service like Comcast is effectively doing.



atmuscarella said:


> It is a little hard to follow what you are saying in this and the post that Bigg quoted.
> 
> But I would think that because of bundling deals someone would have to compare the cost of all the services (video, Internet, telephone, & hardware) they wanted combined to compare various providers. Just comparing one providers video costs to anther providers video costs doesn't tell you much if you are going to have to pay substantially more/less for Internet, telephone, and/or hardware depending on who your video provider is.
> 
> The same is true when a person looks at "cord cutting" because of bundling there are times when "cord shaving" would actually save someone more money.


Correct. You run into the same issue with cord cutting and switching to satellite when your only internet option is Comcast. Comcast's actions aren't necessarily illegal when applied to cord cutting, as cord cutting isn't a competitor to Comcast. DirecTV and DISH, however, are competitors to Comcast, and thus Comcast's overly aggressive bundling is illegal, as they are using their monopoly power to compete against DirecTV and DISH in an unfair manner.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> I think i've been going at this all wrong, instead of me trying to convince you that you are spending to much I'll use my situation and you try to tell me how Comcast/Tivo would in any way be cheaper promotions or not
> 
> 3 TV's , 2 of them 4k.
> 
> ...


Is this your first household or did you change over from another service and you're just bragging about your intro deal? Look, it's a good intro deal you got. It also sounds, from your previous post, that you don't need or use performance internet and you still like to play the negotiation games to save $15 a month on continual intro internet deals.

I was with Dish for tv (15 years) and comcast for performance internet. My Dish was $110 / month for one 2 tuner dvr and two hd boxes. My internet was on an intro deal (my third intro deal) and soon to bump up to $80.

$190 a month for all vs $110 for all, plus hbo now. Channel packages are almost identical, except for the new hbo subscription they included. Plus my internet now is 75/10 vs 25/5 then. I had hulu before the switch-over. The initial 2 year savings will pay for a lifetime 4 tuner tivo dvr and a spare plus three used lifetime minis with lots of cash left over. The used lifetime premiere dvrs each have new 2tb drives from the seller. The 'old' technology performs better than my former Dish tech, although it was not a hopper. After the intro period in 2 years, my savings will be $40/month as opposed to $80/month now because I own the equipment.

You got a good intro deal, although you ignore your internet fees in your analysis. It's just not the great deal you think it is unless you plan to switch back to comcast in 3 years for whatever they offer plus you buy tivo to avoid rental fees.

My deal was really good. Anyone who gets an intro deal and / or owns equipment can save a lot over just renting if they have several tvs in the house. Bundling internet also adds to the savings.

PS: my analysis of savings is apples to apples. I am only including two minis to match the two dish hd boxes. If I had 3 dish hd boxes plus the dvr, the savings would amount to an additional $10 / month above. With dish, I used a slingbox for tv #4. (Technically, you win here in a manner of speaking: Dish HD single box is $5 or $7, comcast is $10, although my cost is $0 with the mini)

I'm declaring myself the winner.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> They absolutely do. Comcast, Charter, TWC, and Cox have a lot of negotiating power over the TV contracts, so they are getting much better pricing on the content than Atlantic Broadband, RCN, CableVision and the like. Thus, the smaller providers are less likely to force bundle TV in with the internet. Comcast is making a fortune on TV, some of the small providers are barely making anything. Thus, the smaller providers in some cases don't even want to do TV. CableVision has said that they would rather just do broadband only, so they don't push bundles. Comcast makes a fortune on TV, so they are forcing bundles down people's throats.


NO relevance. WE're talking price comparisons on the retail side amongst video services. Don't care what influences the pricing the consumer sees.



Bigg said:


> No, internet isn't separate at all when it costs $65/mo to get internet only, and $90/mo to get a bundle deal with TV and internet, and the cable company is the only way you can get decent internet at home. Comcast's illegal bundling practices make it impossible for DirecTV to compete, as they can't charge $25/mo for their video service like Comcast is effectively doing.


No relevance except, as was said, it is more clear to break out the bundle discount if there is a one when comparing video services.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

I think parts of both comparisons are retarded. $190 for DISH and internet? Seems much higher than what I could get both for.

Saying cable can't touch $80/mo for video and equipment over 2 years even when including special offers from cable? I know I was paying $70/mo for 50/5 internet and "standard" cable package with no equipment for the 1st year with my provider. 

So let's just say the truth is in the middle somewhere. SEems like each side is just pointing out the extremes to make their decision look better than it is.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

trip1eX said:


> I think parts of both comparisons are retarded. $190 for DISH and internet? Seems much higher than what I could get both for.
> 
> Saying cable can't touch $80/mo for video and equipment over 2 years even when including special offers from cable? I know I was paying $70/mo for 50/5 internet and "standard" cable package with no equipment for the 1st year with my provider.
> 
> So let's just say the truth is in the middle somewhere. SEems like each side is just pointing out the extremes to make their decision look better than it is.


Dude, I KNOW I made a good deal over what would have been had I done nothing. My used 4 tuner premieres and used minis were examples of luck and good shopping. There are few to none used 4 tuner premieres with 2 TB new drives available on eBay today. Used lifetime minis at $90/avg cost each are pure luck and I admit I was lucky, and a great negotiator when one went south and I got a $50 refund to apply to tivo lifetime charges.

In spite of the tivo snobbery, premieres are still good dvrs. I'm happy.

The take-away is owning avoids paying for rentals. The monthly savings will cover the rental fees if you have a large enough system and minis are involved. An intro deal makes it easier to cover the initial tivo cost. Tivo lifetime is a good deal if you expect to keep cable long enough to cover the cost, if buying new and if you have some minis. Dish is probably making aggressive intro deals because the realize this and won't provide their version of a tivo experience.

Internet fees are expensive unless you steal it with a cantenna from McDonald's or have no problem with email-only speeds. Bundling makes it less costly. Deal with it.

Also, and MOST importantly, what are your costs after the intro deal expires? Hopefully, you used the intro deal like me to cover the costs of lifetime tivo to avoid rentals, with money left over for just p*ssing away.

FYI, the costs I related are excerpted from a spreadsheet analysis I did of the savings before diving in last year.

Note: Of course you can GET IT for less than $190. Anyone can. What's the cost AFTER the intro deal expires ... $190, that's what, assuming you rent.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

jim1971 said:


> Dude, I KNOW I made a good deal over what would have been had I done nothing. My used 4 tuner premieres and used minis were examples of luck and good shopping. There are few to none used 4 tuner premieres with 2 TB new drives available on eBay today. Used lifetime minis at $90/avg cost each are pure luck and I admit I was lucky, and a great negotiator when one went south and I got a $50 refund to apply to tivo lifetime charges.
> 
> In spite of the tivo snobbery, premieres are still good dvrs. I'm happy.
> 
> ...


You are hopeless .. you keep chirping "intro deal expires" "intro deal expires". We are talking about stable prices for 3 years, no one knows what the cable landscape is going to look like in 3 years, not me, and not you. None of the discussion in this thread has had any "intro deal" involved.

What rental fees are you talking about ? The Joey's and hopper are completely free the 15$ and $7 fees are access port charges. Internet fees are NOT expensive if you don't bundle them, in this one case you do use intro deals but you just keep reusing it I've been on 'new subscriber' internet with comcast for 7 years now at the same house.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

That's the biggest load of BS I've read yet. another idiot for the ignore list


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Cox Cable + Cox Internet with 2 Tivos w/lifetime and 4 Minis

is way cheaper than 

Cable or Telco Slow Internet + 2 Hoppers and 4 Joeys 


in the long run! I would know

Both the OSU1991 dude above me and I are Dish defectors and embraced Tivo's and now Cox.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> What rental fees are you talking about ? The Joey's and hopper are completely free the 15$ and $7 fees are access port charges.


I don't pay 'port charges'. None, nada, squat. Or rental fees. Or cable card fees. Or tivo monthly charges. Just $110 / month to comcast for lots of channels, 75/10 internet (usually faster), and hbo. 4 tvs.

I still win.

Sucker.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

In the last 60 days I have found incredible deals on Internet alone in multiple markets from large companies as well as small over builders. 

Generally:

$39 100Mbps Download

$49 200Mbps Download

$75 300Mbps Download

Again, no bundle. 

60 days ago in these same markets it was close to $60 for 15Mbps Download outside of bundle. 

In some cases these were not advertised, but a result of calling the provider direct. 

So I certainly would encourage you to call all providers in your area - and play one against another even if you are in a bundle.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> In the last 60 days I have found incredible deals on Internet alone in multiple markets from large companies as well as small over builders.
> 
> Generally:
> 
> ...


Yes, and I remember google offering, and maybe still offering, gigabit internet for maybe $80 in some places. Unfortunately, not where I live and probably not where you live. You get the internet you can and can afford.

In my neighborhood, I can get ATT 1.5 Mbit or less DSL (due to my distant location from the home office) or Comcast which is priced similarly after the intro pricing expires, but for faster speeds. Even less with bundling.

If you live a few miles out of town, anywhere in the USA, you get dial up or satellite internet or whatever you can scrounge out of your cell phone as a hotspot.

Someday in the distant future, internet will be freely available and fast everywhere. Not today or anytime soon, after the intro deal expires.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

jim1971 said:


> Yes, and I remember google offering, and maybe still offering, gigabit internet for maybe $80 in some places. Unfortunately, not where I live and probably not where you live. You get the internet you can and can afford.
> 
> In my neighborhood, I can get ATT 1.5 Mbit or less DSL (due to my distant location from the home office) or Comcast which is priced similarly after the intro pricing expires, but for faster speeds. Even less with bundling.
> 
> ...


Freely available? Doubtful.

Fast is another thing.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story...y-s7-3-channel-carrier-aggregation/2016-03-15


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> NO relevance. WE're talking price comparisons on the retail side amongst video services. Don't care what influences the pricing the consumer sees.


It affects competitive choices, since satellite is much more competitive against smaller providers because of the larger providers' bundled pricing models.



> No relevance except, as was said, it is more clear to break out the bundle discount if there is a one when comparing video services.


It's completely relevant, as it's FAR more expensive to have DirecTV vice Comcast in a Comcast monopoly internet market than it is in a market with another monopoly that isn't as aggressive, or in a market with other options.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> It affects competitive choices, since satellite is much more competitive against smaller providers because of the larger providers' bundled pricing models.
> 
> It's completely relevant, as it's FAR more expensive to have DirecTV vice Comcast in a Comcast monopoly internet market than it is in a market with another monopoly that isn't as aggressive, or in a market with other options.


 No one is disagreeing with anything you've said. But it isn't relevant.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

riekl said:


> You are hopeless .. you keep chirping "intro deal expires" "intro deal expires". We are talking about stable prices for 3 years, no one knows what the cable landscape is going to look like in 3 years, not me, and not you. None of the discussion in this thread has had any "intro deal" involved.
> 
> What rental fees are you talking about ? The Joey's and hopper are completely free the 15$ and $7 fees are access port charges. Internet fees are NOT expensive if you don't bundle them, in this one case you do use intro deals but you just keep reusing it I've been on 'new subscriber' internet with comcast for 7 years now at the same house.


You plugged in the free 1 yr of Netflix and $200 gift card into your pricing and that's an intro deal!!!!!!!!

plus you only pro-rated those over 2 years when you came up with the ~$80/mo. You didn't pro-rate them over your 3 years of rock solid pricing. Your cost starting in year 3 is actually going to be ~$95/mo because your promos will be "off your books."

Joey's/Hoppers aren't free if you're paying $7/mo and $15/mo for them. 
Zero up-front cost is not the same thing as free.

And getting a new user discount on internet every year from Comcast is a YMMV type of deal.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

trip1eX said:


> You plugged in the free 1 yr of Netflix and $200 gift card into your pricing and that's an intro deal afaik plus you only pro-rated those over 2 years when you came up with the $80/mo. You didn't pro-rate them over 3 years.
> 
> And joey's/hoppers aren't free if you're paying $7/mo and $15/mo for them.
> No up-front cost is not the same thing as free.
> ...


From the banner ad right above this thread!

http://www.dish.com/lp/threedom/?WT...3434&utm_campaign=9556709||129786883|69543434


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> From the banner ad right above this thread!
> 
> http://www.dish.com/lp/threedom/?WT...3434&utm_campaign=9556709||129786883|69543434


What are you trying to say?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

foghorn2 said:


> Cox Cable + Cox Internet with 2 Tivos w/lifetime and 4 Minis
> 
> is way cheaper than
> 
> ...


At 16 tuners, why would one need 2 Hoppers? Also you woukd need 3 TiVos to get that maNy tuners.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

riekl said:


> You are hopeless .. you keep chirping "intro deal expires" "intro deal expires". We are talking about stable prices for 3 years, no one knows what the cable landscape is going to look like in 3 years, not me, and not you. None of the discussion in this thread has had any "intro deal" involved.
> 
> What rental fees are you talking about ? The Joey's and hopper are completely free the 15$ and $7 fees are access port charges. Internet fees are NOT expensive if you don't bundle them, in this one case you do use intro deals but you just keep reusing it I've been on 'new subscriber' internet with comcast for 7 years now at the same house.


Pardon Moi! I am so embarrassed. I just saw the deal you signed up for. I was on the 250 channel plan. Had I signed up for the three year plan and remained with comcast for internet only, my monthly cost would have been $175, not $190. There was a $15 discount available.

Shucks, maybe I should sell my tivo equipment and cancel Comcast tv just so I can pay $65 / month more and have internet at 25/5 instead of 75/10. What do you suggest?


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

jim1971 said:


> I don't pay 'port charges'. None, nada, squat. Or rental fees. Or cable card fees. Or tivo monthly charges. Just $110 / month to comcast for lots of channels, 75/10 internet (usually faster), and hbo. 4 tvs.
> 
> I still win.
> 
> Sucker.


Count yourself lucky. TWC charges outlet fees as well as box rental fees which make Dish's look ridiculous ($20/month for a 2-tuner "whole-home" DVR which only is capable of playback on remote boxes, not control). I never could get Tivo to work with their service reliably, and their boxes still act like they were beta testing software from the 90s. Now that they have rolled out their Maxx upgrades, latency is higher than ever as the people sharing your Internet connection fill up the back-haul with idiotic crap.

Based on my experience, anyone still paying the cable company for service is not a winner, but obviously, YMMV. I'd take my inexpensive, reliable, and fast VDSL2 service with Dish (or Directv) over cable any day, even if it cost marginally more, which it wouldn't. Hopefully, I'll never have to make that decision again, but I am not optimistic.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

Here is a price breakdown I did almost 2 years ago when I switched from DirecTV to a FiOS/TiVo combination: http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/212382...r-moving-to-fios-and-tivo/page-4#entry3261622

The only thing that has changed since then is that DirecTV got $10/month more expensive and FiOS added a regional sports fee. I am coming up on my 2 year renewal date with FiOS and I will lose a discount...for all of $5. I priced out Dish at the same time and they were within $20 of DirecTV.

Bottom line, even AFTER I renew with FiOS I will still be saving about $80/month versus satellite.

Note that even without bundle discounts (which were $45/month for the first 2 years and will be $40/month for years 3 and 4 at least) the FiOS programming was almost $30/month less that DirecTV for essentially the same channels. Dish programming is cheaper, falling between FiOS and DirecTV. But once you start adding in equipment rental and other fees, satellite quickly gets very expensive.

Satellite is a premium service...it is for people that want a better quality than their local cable company, or for people that live someplace where they don't have a terrestrial option. But when you have a basically good cable option like FiOS (and perhaps Comcast, depending on location) the added cost of satellite is hard to ignore.

Read the linked post carefully...we are saving a BOATLOAD of money now that we have paid back the purchase price of the TiVos.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> No one is disagreeing with anything you've said. But it isn't relevant.


It is absolutely relevant to satellite being competitive.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Bigg said:


> It is absolutely relevant to satellite being competitive.


But that wasn't the discussion in my post and that's why it is irrelevant.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It is absolutely relevant to satellite being competitive.


You like to bash your head against a wall? Just asking.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

http://www.multichannel.com/news/content/dish-launches-sports-bar-mode/403398


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Diana Collins said:


> Satellite is a premium service...it is for people that want a better quality than their local cable company


This is the point I was making.  I have high standards, so using a cableco DVR or a Tivo with Cable Card and Tuning Adapter doesn't meet my expectations. I'd rather pay more for Satellite than cable, just like I'd rather pay more for Tivo vs. ChannelMaster or whatever else for OTA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

ncted said:


> This is the point I was making. I have high standards, so using a cableco DVR or a Tivo with Cable Card and Tuning Adapter doesn't meet my expectations. I'd rather pay more for Satellite than cable, just like I'd rather pay more for Tivo vs. ChannelMaster or whatever else for OTA.


I'd pay more for DirecTV iff they would support TiVo. It wouldn't be technically that hard to make a USB box with 6 tuners in it that could interface to a Premiere/Roamio, they just don't *want* to support TiVo. Hopefully the mandates will come through and they will have to support a future TiVo box, one way or the other.


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## slice1900 (Dec 2, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You should have actually figured 3 DVRs to have the 16 tuner capability of the Dish Hopper.
> 
> As thus, Comcast would cost much more than what you calculated.


The 16 tuners only matter if you actually need that many. Most people are fine with a fraction of that many.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

slice1900 said:


> The 16 tuners only matter if you actually need that many. Most people are fine with a fraction of that many.


If you are comparing apples to apples, especially as earlier posts were quoting multiple DVRs, then you have to look at the full package.

Besides, buffer 1 minute on each side of a programming to account for TiVos time offset and 6 tuners become 3.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Bigg said:


> I'd pay more for DirecTV iff they would support TiVo. It wouldn't be technically that hard to make a USB box with 6 tuners in it that could interface to a Premiere/Roamio, they just don't *want* to support TiVo. Hopefully the mandates will come through and they will have to support a future TiVo box, one way or the other.


Considering the performance of the Genie, I would clearly go in that direction.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Considering the performance of the Genie, I would clearly go in that direction.


I'd just miss my TiVo. I know Genie does most of what TiVo does almost as well, but it's just not TiVo. I'll have to reconsider when I own my own place, and want to build a home theater, and the picture quality of DirecTV might trump TiVo. The internet pricing also factors in, depending on if VDSL is available at that address, and what cable company is in that town. Also, DirecTV gets pricey, since you have to pay $6/mo per TV, whereas TiVo has no monthly fees, and the TiVo Minis can be rolled out with Ethernet for $150 a pop.

For sports, I'd definitely prefer DirecTV though. They have literally everything I'd want in HD, and the picture quality is really, really good. Run it through a video processor, put it on a big screen, and it would look amazing.

EDIT: If they came out with a TiVo interface box, I'd definitely go DirecTV.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Besides, buffer 1 minute on each side of a programming to account for TiVos time offset and 6 tuners become 3.


TiVo doesn't have a time offset. Some cable companies or channels don't stick to the proper clock/time setting.

If NBC programs a show to run to 9:00:15, that 15 seconds is NBC's fault.

I wish TiVo did a soft pad like DirecTV does, and that would help with this problem. But to be technical, it's not TiVo's fault.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

astrohip said:


> TiVo doesn't have a time offset. Some cable companies or channels don't stick to the proper clock/time setting.
> 
> If NBC programs a show to run to 9:00:15, that 15 seconds is NBC's fault.
> 
> I wish TiVo did a soft pad like DirecTV does, and that would help with this problem. But to be technical, it's not TiVo's fault.


NBC does not start programming at 9:00:15.

The delay is satellite transmission, deciding and re-encoding delays at the local station and then delays in the distribution from the local channel.

And that means start times are different on the same channel OTA, local cable and DBS Satellite.

While you are correct that TiVo starts at :00:00, that ignores that :00:00 is almost never the correct time and ends up clipping the last line of many comedies.

At least Directv built in a buffer to overcome this. TiVo has not.

TiVo is 100% responsible for the features it elects to put in its DVR and they have decided not to put in coding to prevent this, despite spending over $100M on R&D virtually every year.

Likewise, a 6 tuner TiVo becomes a 3 tuner TiVo if one puts a 60 second buffer on all Programs ad Directv does. The Dish Hopper 3 becomes an 8 tuner DVR under the same scenario while Directv remains at 5 tuners.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The Dish Hopper 3 becomes an 8 tuner DVR under the same scenario


True except for the PTAT tuner. Anything recorded on the big 4 networks with padding gets it without the utilization of additional tuners.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> NBC does not start programming at 9:00:15.
> 
> The delay is satellite transmission, deciding and re-encoding delays at the local station and then delays in the distribution from the local channel.
> 
> And that means start times are different on the same channel OTA, local cable and DBS Satellite.


Not true for me. I have a Roamio on Comcast, and a Roamio on antenna. I have recordings where it stops just before the end of the show. I've noted the word it stops on, and then watched the OTA recording. Exact. Same. Stop. (to the fraction of a second)

Some networks play friendly; CBS rarely or never runs over. NBC loves to run over. I've watched too many shows and have their patterns down to an art.

I also have DirecTV. I've had shows where the beginning gets clipped (when I have too many recordings at once, and the soft pad wasn't able to kick in). I usually note it when it happens, and watch it on my TiVo when I am able. Same. Exact. Start. (within a second or so) I've then watched it on network web sites, and realized I missed about five seconds. Clear evidence that network started that show early when TWO different systems both missed the start.

So if it ends at the exact same time on two different transmission methods, then your blanket statement isn't correct. And if it starts at the same time on two totally different systems, well... same conclusion.

Again, I really wish TiVo went to a soft pad. This is one of the *best* DirecTV features. Blaming TiVo for network shenanigans may make you feel better, but it isn't the truth.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

astrohip said:


> Not true for me. I have a Roamio on Comcast, and a Roamio on antenna. I have recordings where it stops just before the end of the show. I've noted the word it stops on, and then watched the OTA recording. Exact. Same. Stop. (to the fraction of a second)
> 
> Some networks play friendly; CBS rarely or never runs over. NBC loves to run over. I've watched too many shows and have their patterns down to an art.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I've had OTA and cable at the same time, and OTA and Dish at the same time. When I used PIP on my TV to show me the OTA and cable/Dish signals at the same, time, there was definitely a delay between seeing the image on the OTA vs. non-OTA signal of several seconds.

That you are seeing start/stop times on recordings being identical between OTA and cable/satellite suggests the cable/satellite companies know what their delay is and build that into the clock on their STBs.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I had satellite (Directv) and cable (Comcast then fios) in the house for years and they never synched watching the same program.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I've seen upwards of a 10 second delay on cable versus what OTA had, but that was on a college cable system feeding off of Charter, so there may have been multiple layers of delay.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

There are multiple ways for different delays. 

Not all stations use the same MPEG2 encoders and the delay in encoding is set differently. Therefore, the CBS station in Dallas would not start at the exact second the CBS Station in Houston does. 

Also, some station feed the cable on their same ASI fiber feed as they feed the transmitter. Others receive the same station off the air and process it for QAM-again causing timing issues. 

Then there are the DBS Systems that must decode the MPEG2 to baseband and then encode to MPEG4, plus bounce it up 22k miles and back, which presents more timing offsets. 

That is the reason none are the exact same in timing and why the Directv auto buffer is the only correct one size fits entire CONUS solution.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> There are multiple ways for different delays.
> 
> Not all stations use the same MPEG2 encoders and the delay in encoding is set differently. Therefore, the CBS station in Dallas would not start at the exact second the CBS Station in Houston does.
> 
> ...


Makes sense to me. So in other words, all this infrastructure can introduce delays in proper time alignment. And it's not...



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> TiVos time offset


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

astrohip said:


> Makes sense to me. So in other words, all this infrastructure can introduce delays in proper time alignment. And it's not...


If TiVos had an adjustable time offset, preferably per channel, one could fine tune the issue

They don't allow that much control as Dan has stated.

The best method is the 1 tuner capable of recording 2 programs (the overlap) which Directv mastered 4 years ago and TiVo attempted but bombed out on despite their $100m+ annual R&D Budget.

So if one wants the same buffer in TiVo you lose 50% of your tuners, unlike Directv.

One might also lose the ability with Dish, but 16 tuners to 8 really does not make it a factor.

So. Yes, TiVos refusal to do a time offset or fix the feature that was enabled and then disabled causes a serious issue that is not consumer friendly and makes it the weakest in this area of the DVRs.


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## slice1900 (Dec 2, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> NBC does not start programming at 9:00:15.


The problem isn't uplink/encoding delays that push start times 10 seconds late, it is programming that is deliberately scheduled to start at times like 9:01. For instance, Fox scheduled Lucifer to start at 8:01 CDT Monday, NBC has blackish scheduled for 8:31 CDT tonight. I've seen some others scheduled to start a minute early, three minutes late, etc. Its that overlap that causes problems, a few seconds of difference due to uplink or encoding delays are mostly irrelevant - missing the first 5 seconds of a program due to that difference isn't exactly going to leave you unable to follow what is happening...

Tivo tried and somehow failed to make it work when you record two consecutive programs on the SAME CHANNEL, with overlap. i.e. if you have an automatic minute added onto the end of your program it needs two tuners for the same channel, which is stupid.

Regardless, even with overlaps, the number of people who will derive any benefit from the 9th through the 16th tuners in the Hopper 3 is minuscule. The kind of people who post in TV related forums are not typical customers by any stretch of the imagination.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> The problem isn't uplink/encoding delays that push start times 10 seconds late, it is programming that is deliberately scheduled to start at times like 9:01. For instance, Fox scheduled Lucifer to start at 8:01 CDT Monday, NBC has blackish scheduled for 8:31 CDT tonight. I've seen some others scheduled to start a minute early, three minutes late, etc. Its that overlap that causes problems, a few seconds of difference due to uplink or encoding delays are mostly irrelevant - missing the first 5 seconds of a program due to that difference isn't exactly going to leave you unable to follow what is happening...
> 
> Tivo tried and somehow failed to make it work when you record two consecutive programs on the SAME CHANNEL, with overlap. i.e. if you have an automatic minute added onto the end of your program it needs two tuners for the same channel, which is stupid.
> 
> Regardless, even with overlaps, the number of people who will derive any benefit from the 9th through the 16th tuners in the Hopper 3 is minuscule. The kind of people who post in TV related forums are not typical customers by any stretch of the imagination.


If a program officially starts at x:01 or x:31 doesn't have anything to do with if you will need to pad it or not. The only additional issue I see with programs that officially start at x:01 or x:31 is an increased potential for a shortage of tuners even if you don't need to pad shows. If you have enough tuners there are no additional issues and if you are recording the program before/after it on the same channel there are no additional issues again unless you need to pad everything because of your provider and will be short tuners.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

To Do List, "Second Chance", Explore, Upcoming shows:

S1E11 Fri 3/26 9:00 Channel 11-1
AND
S1E11 Fri 3/26 9:01 Channel 11-1

The first one shows double checkmarks to be recorded, while the second is unchecked.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

slice1900 said:


> The problem isn't uplink/encoding delays that push start times 10 seconds late, it is programming that is deliberately scheduled to start at times like 9:01. For instance, Fox scheduled Lucifer to start at 8:01 CDT Monday, NBC has blackish scheduled for 8:31 CDT tonight. I've seen some others scheduled to start a minute early, three minutes late, etc. Its that overlap that causes problems, a few seconds of difference due to uplink or encoding delays are mostly irrelevant - missing the first 5 seconds of a program due to that difference isn't exactly going to leave you unable to follow what is happening...
> 
> Tivo tried and somehow failed to make it work when you record two consecutive programs on the SAME CHANNEL, with overlap. i.e. if you have an automatic minute added onto the end of your program it needs two tuners for the same channel, which is stupid.
> 
> Regardless, even with overlaps, the number of people who will derive any benefit from the 9th through the 16th tuners in the Hopper 3 is minuscule. The kind of people who post in TV related forums are not typical customers by any stretch of the imagination.


Never said that programs do not start at :01:00 or :31:00 (as they are noted in Guide as such). They do not start Programs at 00:15. Those are delivery/encoding delays.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

jth tv said:


> To Do List, "Second Chance", Explore, Upcoming shows:
> 
> S1E11 Fri 3/26 9:00 Channel 11-1
> AND
> ...


Considering the first one that records says it lasts for 60 minutes, that would cover the entire hour, even if it does start at :01:00.

This is obviously a guide error to have the dup anyway.


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