# Stream = Apple ONLY ?



## SalemCat

From what I can gather, TiVo Stream works ONLY with a small selection of Apple Mobile Devices.

Windows devices or Laptops are not compatible.

Correct ?


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## SullyND

SalemCat said:


> a small selection of Apple Mobile Devices.


Do you know how many iOS devices were sold last year?? "Small" doesn't go anywhere near it.

The Stream currently supports iOS. Android is planned. There has been no mention of traditional computers (Windows or OSX)


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## SalemCat

Apparently TiVo Stream supports only an iPod, iPad, or iPhone.

Three devices ONLY ?


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## SullyND

SalemCat said:


> Apparently TiVo Stream supports only an iPod, iPad, or iPhone.
> 
> Three devices ONLY ?


How many iOS devices were sold last year?



SullyND said:


> The Stream currently supports iOS. Android is planned. There has been no mention of traditional computers (Windows or OSX)


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## SalemCat

SullyND said:


> How many iOS devices were sold last year?


No idea.

How many Android and Windows devices, including Computers, were sold last year ?


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## SalemCat

SullyND said:


> The Stream currently supports iOS. Android is planned. There has been no mention of traditional computers (Windows or OSX)


It looks like TiVo Stream won't be on Santa's List in my home. Too bad. If it worked on anything I own I'd buy it.


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## Dan203

TiVo has said that they are working on Android support right now. Other then that we have no idea. There is a mew developer SDK which says it will have support for mobile devices in the future. If that includes the Stream then expect there to be all kinds of platforms in the future. If not then I'm guessing TiVo will eventually add a Windows 8 app, which would then support most laptops either directly or via dual boot (i.e. bootcamp) or VM setups. 

Dan


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## David Platt

SalemCat said:


> From what I can gather, TiVo Stream works ONLY with a small selection of Apple Mobile Devices.
> 
> Windows devices or Laptops are not compatible.
> 
> Correct ?


Correct



SalemCat said:


> Apparently TiVo Stream supports only an iPod, iPad, or iPhone.
> 
> Three devices ONLY ?


Yes, that's correct.


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## Dan203

Well technically it supports any device running iOS 4.x or higher. Which means there are 4 iPhones, 4 iPods and 3 iPads that are supported. So 11 devices. And as of tomorrow there will be two more, the iPad Mini and the refreshed iPad3. (solid rumors on both)

Dan


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## mr_smits

SalemCat said:


> From what I can gather, TiVo Stream works ONLY with a small selection of Apple Mobile Devices.
> 
> Windows devices or Laptops are not compatible.
> 
> Correct ?


Sad but true. For some reason, Tivo has not prioritized the Android ecosystem to be used with Tivo Stream. This would be understandable if it was 2008-2009 when Android was a new OS, but it's almost 2013 and Android controls a clear majority of the U.S. smart phone market and has so for some time now. I would expect Windows laptop support before Windows app support, but they may go hand in hand.


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## ort

It's a lot hard to write software for Android because there are so many different devices to support.

They may have sold more units overall, but there is a huge gap in tech specs, screen size, OS, etc...

A lot of those android devices are in the hands of people who don't really use them to their full potential. People who just wanted a cheap/free phone and/or people without data plans.


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## Dan203

Not to mention the main target for the Stream is tablets, not smart phones. And in the tablet space the iPad still rules the market. (>60% I believe) plus studies have shown that iOS users use thier devices more often and typically spend more money on apps and pariphrials. So it made perfect sense for TiVo to target iOS first.

Dan


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## Arcady

3 devices now. The other 3997 devices next.


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## SalemCat

Dan203 said:


> Well technically it supports any device running iOS 4.x or higher. Which means there are 4 iPhones, 4 iPods and 3 iPads that are supported. So 11 devices. And as of tomorrow there will be two more, the iPad Mini and the refreshed iPad3. (solid rumors on both)
> 
> Dan


How many different COLORS do these devices come in ? We might be able to double the count again.


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## Dan203

Forgot about colors, disk sizes, with/without cellular data, etc... There are at least 12 SKUs for the current gen iPad. 

Dan


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## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> Forgot about colors, disk sizes, with/without cellular data, etc... There are at least 12 SKUs for the current gen iPad.
> 
> Dan


I agree They went after tablets here and IPAD is king there. And if the Mini is price competitive Apple will rule the smaller market as well.


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## magnox

Dan203 said:


> Forgot about colors, disk sizes, with/without cellular data, etc... There are at least 12 SKUs for the current gen iPad.
> 
> Dan


LOL - but still apple only


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## aaronwt

compnurd said:


> I agree They went after tablets here and IPAD is king there. And if the Mini is price competitive Apple will rule the smaller market as well.


PRice won't do it for me. Even if the iPAd mini is cheaper than the FireHD 8.9 ", I am still getting the FireHD 8.9" tablet. Plus Apple still uses a 20th century aspect ratio instead of using a modern 21st century aspect ratio. Unless they change things up with the mini.


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## DeWitt

In the tablet space it still an iPad world. Although some Android tablets are starting to sell (Fire, Nexus) supposedly ISPs are still reporting over 90% of tablet traffic is iPad. Phones are a different story.

My very unscientific survey: Since first buying an iPad I have been noticing them on my daily commute. So far, I see typically 20 to 50 a day on the train. Have yet to see an Android tablet. Of all my friends, only the serious tech/it folks have Android tablets. Out in the general consumer world it is still all iPad.

One exception, I know quite a few iPad owners who have recently bought Kindle Fires for their kids. 

And oh by the way, I love the TIVO Stream/iPad combo. So easy to watch guilty pleasure TV while commuting now.


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## mr_smits

DeWitt said:


> In the tablet space it still an iPad world. Although some Android tablets are starting to sell (Fire, Nexus) supposedly ISPs are still reporting over 90% of tablet traffic is iPad. Phones are a different story.


The situation is almost identical to what happened with the iPhone. Apple and the iPad blazed the trail, will rule for a few years, and then sales and adoption will tilt toward Android.

Apple is content with high margin devices. They are unwilling to compete on price and prefer to be a status symbol.


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## Dan203

I'm not so sure it's going to tip toward Android this time though. Windows 8 is going to attract a LOT of business users to the tablet space. Casual users may still prefer iOS or Android, but when you're boss is going to give you something for free you're going to take what you can get. I think that a year from now Windows 8 is going to carve out a big slice of that pie.

Dan


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## ort

mr_smits said:


> The situation is almost identical to what happened with the iPhone. Apple and the iPad blazed the trail, will rule for a few years, and then sales and adoption will tilt toward Android.
> 
> Apple is content with high margin devices. They are unwilling to compete on price and prefer to be a status symbol.


Overall unit sales may have tipped in favor of Android, but iOS is still firmly the lead mobile platform. The vast majority of Android devices out in the world are not being used as smartphones.

Browsing statistics and app sale numbers back this up.

I don't have links handy, but developers make something like 5 times as much selling iPhone apps and the iPhone has something like 2/3 of all mobile browsing usage. That's phones, not tablets.

Apple also makes 75% of the revenue in the mobile phone hardware business, while google has yet to make a dime off of android. Google themselves testified before congress that iOS is a more profitable platform for them. I think they actually make four times as much off of iOS mobile ads than they do off of their own platform.

But yeah, the whole world has tilted to android.

I might have skipped over this comment or been a little less blunt, but I'm tired of people making snide comments about Apple products just being status symbols.

For some reason it seems like it's impossible for some people to accept the fact that people buy apple products because they like them.


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## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> I'm not so sure it's going to tip toward Android this time though.


People thought the same thing about the iPhone. It was untouchable. Time will tell.


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## mr_smits

ort said:


> For some reason it seems like it's impossible for some people to accept the fact that people buy apple products because they like them.


I agree that people buy Apple products because they like them, but they also buy them as a status symbol and for every other reason, valid or not. No one is buying an Android phone or Windows phone for status. Those phones don't have hipster appeal. The fact is that Apple makes good, pretty products that cost a lot more than the competition. There's nothing wrong with that. They are doing quite well!

I don't want to get into a platform debate; however, it is irrelevant what percentage of revenue Apple makes on their mobile phones. It's also irrelevant to the discussion about app sales and browsing data. Apple has a different model than Google or Windows in that they charge a premium for their product and they refuse to compete on price. Google makes their money via advertising. I'm honesty not sure about Windows.

The iPhone has about 33% of the current market and Android is about 52%. Android will continue to rise and iPhone will keep stealing from Blackberry. It's simply a numbers game. Apple isn't going anywhere anytime soon, but I predict the tablet war will be very similar to the smartphone war: the iPad will have dominance for a number of years while the competition ramps up and eventually outpaces the Apple on sales numbers and eventually specs. Apple will continue to have devotees and will, like their computer sales, be a solid niche market for them.


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## ort

A top-end iPhone costs exactly as much as a top-end Android phone.

You can get an iPhone for free on contract.

I don't know why you think Android will continue to rise and that Apple won't also continue to rise.

Here is what I'm trying to say, only with proper numbers and research...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/darcytr...s-apple-ios-market-share-numbers-dont-matter/


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## aaronwt

ort said:


> A top-end iPhone costs exactly as much as a top-end Android phone.
> 
> You can get an iPhone for free on contract.
> 
> I don't know why you think Android will continue to rise and that Apple won't also continue to rise.
> 
> Here is what I'm trying to say, only with proper numbers and research...
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/darcytr...s-apple-ios-market-share-numbers-dont-matter/


I didn't realize Google had so many apps. According to the article Google had 440K apps and Apple had 550K apps.


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## jcthorne

I'll give a different take on the 'status symbol' idea and the corporate environment.

First corporate. Blackberry is dying a not so slow death. Android with security layer add ons like Touchdown are replacing Blackberries in droves. Both corporate and government. Iphone is nowhere in the corporate world except for 'BYOD' which is dead on arrival in any organization that has data security issues.

Status symbol, admittedly I work in a very large engineering office so the number of geeks is more concentrated than the general population. But the status symbol is high end Android where Iphone is for sheeple that follow what mother apple doles out to them. The Iphone 5 has driven this home with its day late, underfeatured and over priced 'update'. Sorry but lay an I5 on a confrence room table along side an HTC EVO LTE and the difference in screen, industrial design and capability for corporate use is dramatic. Apple is loosing the corporate phone market as surely as Blackberry has.


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## mr_smits

ort said:


> Here is what I'm trying to say, only with proper numbers and research...
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/darcytr...s-apple-ios-market-share-numbers-dont-matter/


I don't understand what this has to do with our discussion. No one is debating whether Apple makes more per device (they do) or whether developers make more (they do) because Apple users buy more paid apps (they do) than Android users. Apple's entire business model is based on selling devices with high margin (expensive for consumers and cell carriers) and roping them into the eco-system. Again, we agree on these points.

Apple is great at innovation, but as a company they must continue to innovate or else lose to the competition in market share and tech specs. See the iPhone for how this is happening. I believe the same is happening with the iPad although we are still in early days. iPad dominance will continue for another 2-3 years and then competitors will begin to take over.

What this has to do with Tivo is that Tivo should not continue their current strategy of prioritizing Apple devices since the Android ecosystem has surpassed iOS. Hopefully, Tivo leadership has learned this lesson. If in the future, another competitor (Windows or a new OS) begins to gain market share Tivo should not ignore it but should adapt to the changing reality of the cell phone, tablet, or other device market.


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## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> I didn't realize Google had so many apps. According to the article Google had 440K apps and Apple had 550K apps.


Google Play app market is about to surpass Apple app store. I think they are about tied at 700k each.


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## ort

jcthorne said:


> I'll give a different take on the 'status symbol' idea and the corporate environment.
> 
> First corporate. Blackberry is dying a not so slow death. Android with security layer add ons like Touchdown are replacing Blackberries in droves. Both corporate and government. Iphone is nowhere in the corporate world except for 'BYOD' which is dead on arrival in any organization that has data security issues.
> 
> Status symbol, admittedly I work in a very large engineering office so the number of geeks is more concentrated than the general population. But the status symbol is high end Android where Iphone is for sheeple that follow what mother apple doles out to them. The Iphone 5 has driven this home with its day late, underfeatured and over priced 'update'. Sorry but lay an I5 on a confrence room table along side an HTC EVO LTE and the difference in screen, industrial design and capability for corporate use is dramatic. Apple is loosing the corporate phone market as surely as Blackberry has.


It's attitudes like this that put apple users in a defensive stance. Must people use terms like sheeple? Status symbol? Mother apple?

You are insulting people directly when you do this.

I think anyone who feels the need to belittle or insult people over their choice of electronics is probably a small minded person with severe emotional problems.


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## ort

mr_smits said:


> I don't understand what this has to do with our discussion. No one is debating whether Apple makes more per device (they do) or whether developers make more (they do) because Apple users buy more paid apps (they do) than Android users. Apple's entire business model is based on selling devices with high margin (expensive for consumers and cell carriers) and roping them into the eco-system. Again, we agree on these points.


The discussion is about who is "winning". Let's take a step back and discuss what the benefit of "winning" is. As a consumer, I don't give two licks about how much money these companies make.

What I want is the best device with the best features.

So when we look at what it means to "win" what we are looking at is what is going to result in the most benefit for me, the end user.

• We want to know that the platform we are buying into is healthy and will continue to get great support.

• We want to know that a steady stream of high quality apps will be written for our platform.

• We want to know that our devices will be popular enough to be compatible with after market products and accessories.

• We want to know that our devices will be popular enough to be compatible with 3rd party software.

These are the ways having a good marketshare benefits the consumer. And in all of these cases, both platforms are in good shape.

I would argue that on all of these points, apple is in better shape as a platform than android is. If I am forgetting anything, please let me know.

How does the larger marketshare of android benefit your average user on the street? Is the larger marketshare providing tangible consumer benefit over what iOS offers?



> Apple is great at innovation, but as a company they must continue to innovate or else lose to the competition in market share and tech specs. See the iPhone for how this is happening. I believe the same is happening with the iPad although we are still in early days. iPad dominance will continue for another 2-3 years and then competitors will begin to take over.


You keep saying this, but I don't think it meshes with reality. Apple is selling more and more iPhones every year. Their growth is insane and they are making tons and tons of money in the mobile market. They are the very model of health in the business world. They are in a way way better position than Google or Microsoft. Google has yet to make a dime of actual profit off Android. The entire platform is designed to move advertising, and yet, they make 4 times as much advertising revenue from iOS. The only Android hardware manufacturer making any money is Samsung. HTC, Motorola, Sony... all losing buckets of cash. Posting loss after loss. Microsoft and Nokia are just a huge mess. RIM is basically dead. Any of these companies would trade places with Apple in a heartbeat.

To put this into some more perspective. Apple's iPhone, which represents about half of their revenue, makes more money than all of Microsoft. Apple's iPhone all by itself also makes more money than all of Google. It also continues to make more and more every single year. There is no indication that it is going to be slowing down.

Anyway... In the end what consumers want is multiple platforms with healthy ecosystems. Competition benefits everyone. There doesn't need to be a winner and loser, and their probably won't be. Hopefully we will see multiple platforms thrive and compete. That's what benefits the consumer most of all.

I can see how someone can look at apple 's products and decide that they aren't for them. Android phones are great and offer a lot of features that iPhones don't.

I just don't see how that frequently turns into apple users being dumb or apple the company being in trouble.

I think when people talk about apple being in trouble, or apple losing, they are just projecting their hatred for the company into their feelings. For whatever reason, apple doing well drives non-apple users insane. They just can't handle it and they start crafting all sorts of bizarre fantasy scenarios to make it feel like apple is doing worse than they are, or their platform of choice is going to win.

No one needs to win. If anyone does win, we all lose.



> What this has to do with Tivo is that Tivo should not continue their current strategy of prioritizing Apple devices since the Android ecosystem has surpassed iOS. Hopefully, Tivo leadership has learned this lesson. If in the future, another competitor (Windows or a new OS) begins to gain market share Tivo should not ignore it but should adapt to the changing reality of the cell phone, tablet, or other device market.


Again, Android has raw numbers, but a huge amount of those phones are in the hands of people who don't use them as smartphones. iOS users download more apps and use them more. Despite being in the minority marketshare wise. The numbers here aren't even close. Apple is an easier platform to target, because there are much less devices to optimize for. iOS users download more apps and pay for more apps. In the tablet market, the real target of the Stream, the iPad is clearly ahead by a huge margin by any measurable metric.

If TiVo had to make a choice between getting it out now on one platform, or trying to make it for every platform, iOS is the safe and logical choice.

Even if they made the Android app first, they wouldn't be able to target every android device, making android larger marketshare a moot point anyway.


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## magnox

You have WAY too much time on your hands.


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## atmuscarella

magnox said:


> You have WAY too much time on your hands.


:up: +1


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## ort

Guilty as charged. This morning anyway.

I see comments all over the web like this and I never bother responding... so in the rare instance when I do respond, I do it thoroughly.

This is more of a response to the last 100 people who have said something similar, only poor mr smits gets the brunt of it, because he caught me on a quiet morning at work (where I can spare 15 minutes to write a long response) and on a commenting system where I am actually registered and logged in.


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## atmuscarella

ort said:


> Guilty as charged. This morning anyway.
> 
> I see comments all over the web like this and I never bother responding... so in the rare instance when I do respond, I do it thoroughly.
> 
> This is more of a response to the last 100 people who have said something similar, only poor mr smits gets the brunt of it, because he caught me on a quiet morning at work (where I can spare 15 minutes to write a long response) and on a commenting system where I am actually registered and logged in.


Ya but this thread really has very little to do with ios devices and the people who use them per say and allot to do with people who want to use the stream with non-ios devices.

It is really simple when people want something, some people are willing to do or say anything to get it. Just look at the crap people say to get people to vote one way or the other truth/reality has nothing to do with it.

In this case people with non-ios devices want the stream to work with their device. So any position that justifies TiVo doing that is a good position. So no real reason to take it personally.


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## ort

Well, mr_smits was saying that it made more sense for TiVo to make the android version first, and I'm trying to explain why I think that's not the case.

TiVo should (and will) make it work for everyone. But it makes more sense for them to get it out on one platform, and then bring access for more people later, than it is for them to sit on it until it works across both platforms. It also makes more sense for them to make the lead platform iOS.


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## mr_smits

ort said:


> Well, mr_smits was saying that it made more sense for TiVo to make the android version first, and I'm trying to explain why I think that's not the case.
> 
> TiVo should (and will) make it work for everyone. But it makes more sense for them to get it out on one platform, and then bring access for more people later, than it is for them to sit on it until it works across both platforms. It also makes more sense for them to make the lead platform iOS.


Instead of responding to your entire other post, I'll just focus on this one issue:

I disagree that Tivo choosing iOS was the safe and logical choice for Stream compatibility. It would have been the safe and logical choice in 2009, but its almost 2013 and the reality is that the market is changing rapidly. According to this Engadget article, http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/25/strategy-analytics-claims-android-reached-41-percent-of-tablets/ iPad is about 57% percent of the tablet market with Android tablets at 41%!

I don't think Tivo should have made the Android app first; in fact, that would have been just as bad as iOS first decision. Tivo is supposed to be known as making TV simple and just working for the majority of potential customers. The iOS and Android apps should be developed simultaneously and released at the same time. If Tivo wants to thrive, it should stay on top of market share trends and not default to one. It's a poor business to do otherwise.

It would be great to hear from an official Tivo spokesperson that an Android version or compatibility was started at the same time and with the same resources (money, vigor) as the iOS version was, because I don't believe that it is true. It may be easier to create for iOS and that is why that decision was made, but when has taking the easy route been the best route? I'd argue very rarely.


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## jrtroo

It may be just time to agree to disagree on iOS vs android support. We KNOW android support is coming.

I don't know if Windows 8 support is. Tivo has said nothing about that happening.


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## ort

mr_smits said:


> Instead of responding to your entire other post, I'll just focus on this one issue:
> 
> I disagree that Tivo choosing iOS was the safe and logical choice for Stream compatibility. It would have been the safe and logical choice in 2009, but it's almost 2013 and the reality is that the market is changing rapidly. According to this Engadget article, http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/25/strategy-analytics-claims-android-reached-41-percent-of-tablets/ iPad is about 57% percent of the tablet market with Android tablets at 41%!
> 
> I don't think Tivo should have made the Android app first; in fact, that would have been just as bad as iOS first decision. Tivo is supposed to be known as making TV simple and just working for the majority of potential customers. The iOS and Android apps should be developed simultaneously and released at the same time. If Tivo wants to thrive, it should stay on top of market share trends and not default to one. It's a poor business to do otherwise.
> 
> It would be great to hear from an official Tivo spokesperson that an Android version or compatibility was started at the same time and with the same resources (money, vigor) as the iOS version was, because I don't believe that it is true. It may be easier to create for iOS and that is why that decision was made, but when has taking the easy route been the best route? I'd argue very rarely.


Those tablet numbers don't really correlate to real world use. That's tablet shipment in one quarter. Apple lists tablet sales numbers while none of the competition does. Apple has sold 100 million iPads. To put that into perspective, the PS2, the most popular gaming console in history, sold 150 million units in 10 years. The iPad has sold 100 million units in 2.5 years.

Anytime there are studies about browser usage amongst tablets, the iPad is in the low 90%s.

I think you're just sticking your head in the sand. No one makes the android version of their apps first. Everyone makes the iOS version first and then ports it to android. There is a reason they do this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2012/jun/10/apple-developer-wwdc-schmidt-android


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## mr_smits

Look at the link again. Market share is below the shipments in Q3 2011 and Q3 2012. The one that says Global Market Share. Is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that the iPad and iPhone isn't "winning" that you simply cannot see data that contradicts your opinion? 

Tivo should respond to the facts: market share and market share trends. Hopefully the leadership that made the Stream decision to go iOS first instead of at least having Android and iOS support at launch has been fired or demoted to a position some easier decision making.


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## ort

Those numbers are estimates because none of the companies release any data.

Even if they are accurate, and Android is holding 40% of the tablet market. Those numbers are split up amongst dozens of tablets. Do you spend the time and energy coding and testing for each of those tablets, each of which has a tiny sliver of the total market, or do you take the easy route, and code for the iPad, which takes less time, costs less money and hits more users.

If TiVo is making a mistake by ignoring market trends then they aren't alone, because almost everybody targets iOS first.

iOS is the lead mobile platform. It's where developers go first. And they do it for a reason.

Maybe every single developer and company who is making iOS apps first is completely wrong, and simply isn't privy to the inside information you have, but somehow I don't think that is the case.

They go where the active users and money is... and that's iOS.

That's what's happening. Thinking it shouldn't work that way won't change it.


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## radish

It's also worth considering demographics. TiVo customers (and potential tivo customers) are not "the world". They're largely American, so the extremely large number of android tablets sold in Asia are irrelevant. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that tivo households with tablets and money to drop on a stream are probably higher income as well - research I've seen puts iOS usage much higher in higher income brackets. 

That said, I agree with the sentiment that only a healthy competition benefits consumers. Long live iOS and android


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## Dan203

Windows 8 just dropped today where is the Windows 8 app? 

Dan


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## lrhorer

ort said:


> It's attitudes like this that put apple users in a defensive stance. Must people use terms like sheeple? Status symbol? Mother apple?


Well, at the very least, it makes for a more interesting spectacle here. 



ort said:


> You are insulting people directly when you do this.


'Something I learned more than 40 years ago: It is impossible to insult someone who refuses to be insulted. A thick skin and a sense of humor do far, far more to weather a verbally abusive onslaught than any amount of protest or attempted retribution.



ort said:


> I think anyone who feels the need to belittle or insult people over their choice of electronics is probably a small minded person with severe emotional problems.


Case in point. No offense intended, but that was an awfully feeble come-back. Providing some sort of evidence that Apple users were not "sheeple" would have been much more effective.


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## lrhorer

ort said:


> What I want is the best device with the best features.


With qualifications, I agree. What I am looking for is the best value. That means it meets my needs for the lowest relative cost. I don't mind paying more for something that meets my needs compared with something that does not, but I don't want to pay more for something that exceeds my needs if a less expensive option meets them. In my book, the widely vaunted "exceeds expectations" is worthless.



ort said:


> So when we look at what it means to "win" what we are looking at is what is going to result in the most benefit for me, the end user.


Agreed, but...



ort said:


>  We want to know that the platform we are buying into is healthy and will continue to get great support.


Disagreed. I very frequently buy last generation / abandoned technology. I can get it at a very good price, and if it meets my needs, paying more for a next generation technology is usually just foolish. The terms "innovation" and "continued development" rarely impress me.



ort said:


>  We want to know that a steady stream of high quality apps will be written for our platform.


Again, I disagree. Only very rarely have I been impressed by a new application. When I am, I will agree that its working on an existing or preferably mature platform is a plus. Note the "mature" qualification. I have a large amount of hardware in use that is over 20 years old. I haven't purchased a new PC in almost 10 years.



ort said:


>  We want to know that our devices will be popular enough to be compatible with after market products and accessories.


Being popular is less conducive to that end than being standards-based.



ort said:


>  We want to know that our devices will be popular enough to be compatible with 3rd party software.


Being popular is not all that relevant to that end, while being standards-based is virtually a guarantee to that end. Of course, being both is a grand slam.


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## lrhorer

radish said:


> That said, I agree with the sentiment that only a healthy competition benefits consumers. Long live iOS and android


Yes, and to that end, as well as lots of other positive ones, no one should be impressed by an 80% or 90% market share of anything. They should be appalled. A much better situation all the way around is a host of companies, none of whom has more than 10%.


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## global_dev

I just hope that if the android app actually hits, it will work on rooted devices.


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## ort

lrhorer said:


> Well, at the very least, it makes for a more interesting spectacle here.
> 
> 'Something I learned more than 40 years ago: It is impossible to insult someone who refuses to be insulted. A thick skin and a sense of humor do far, far more to weather a verbally abusive onslaught than any amount of protest or attempted retribution.
> 
> Case in point. No offense intended, but that was an awfully feeble come-back. Providing some sort of evidence that Apple users were not "sheeple" would have been much more effective.


I'm not going to take the time to try and convince you that apple users are not "sheeple". It's completely pointless.

When people say "sheeple" or refer to others as "sheep" what they really mean is "someone who made a different decision than they did".

It's a stupid phrase, regardless of who it is directed at. I've seen it used to describe all sorts of different people.

It runs on the assumption that everyone who isn't YOU, and came to the exact same conclusions as YOU, is a mindless moron who can't think rationally.

It's just a lazy, ugly phrase, and it comes from a bad place of the human psyche. It's divisive and belittling.


----------



## atmuscarella

ort said:


> I'm not going to take the time to try and convince you that apple users are not "sheeple". It's completely pointless.
> 
> When people say "sheeple" or refer to others as "sheep" what they really mean is "someone who made a different decision than they did".
> 
> It's a stupid phrase, regardless of who it is directed at. I've seen it used to describe all sorts of different people.
> 
> It runs on the assumption that everyone who isn't YOU, and came to the exact same conclusions as YOU, is a mindless moron who can't think rationally.
> 
> It's just a lazy, ugly phrase, and it comes from a bad place of the human psyche. It's divisive and belittling.


I disagree.

People constantly need to be reminded to think for themselves, not necessarily follow the crowd, and to figure out what is in their own actually best interests instead of blindly believing other people.

If calling people sheeple, dumb a**es, or anything else accomplishes that then it is justified.

While it may have little negative effects on others when corporations successfully turn people into sheeple, there are significant negative effects when tyrants like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden do.

Then of course calling people sheeple may just be an attempt to turn them into sheeple of another stripe. Samsung's recent anti-apple commercial is doing that and the tactic is often used in politics.

On the topic of if Apple's customers are sheeple or not, I am fairly certain most are not. However if someone isn't making anything from camping out in front of an apple store just to replace the iphone they camped out to get last year with a new one, I am guessing they are.


----------



## Gadfly

This thread is becoming a OS war zone. 

Let's get back to the topic: 

Give me Windows RT support NOW!!!


----------



## ort

atmuscarella said:


> I disagree.
> 
> People constantly need to be reminded to think for themselves, not necessarily follow the crowd, and to figure out what is in their own actually best interests instead of blindly believing other people.
> 
> If calling people sheeple, dumb a**es, or anything else accomplishes that then it is justified.
> 
> While it may have little negative effects on others when corporations successfully turn people into sheeple, there are significant negative effects when tyrants like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden do.
> 
> Then of course calling people sheeple may just be an attempt to turn them into sheeple of another stripe. Samsung's recent anti-apple commercial is doing that and the tactic is often used in politics.
> 
> On the topic of if Apple's customers are sheeple or not, I am fairly certain most are not. However if someone isn't making anything from camping out in front of an apple store just to replace the iphone they camped out to get last year with a new one, I am guessing they are.


It's funny, but 99% of the time, when one person is telling someone else they need to think for themselves, what they are really saying is, "You need to think like me."


----------



## atmuscarella

ort said:


> It's funny, but 99% of the time, when one person is telling someone else they need to think for themselves, what they are really saying is, "You need to think like me."


I agree there are plenty of people who try to use telling someone to "think for themselves" as a back door why of telling them what to think/do/buy. That is just part of the game of marketing what ever is being marketed.

Regardless it is still in a person's best interest to actually "think" whatever through and make a decision that they at least believe is in their best interest based on an analysis of the information available, instead of blindly buying into the marketing hype. Of course because we don't know what we don't know any decision can end up not being the optimal one. In hind site I would say many decisions I have made are not optimal even though I normally try to make as informed a decision as possible.

Just for the record my definition of a sheeple = someone who blindly buys into the marketing hype of whatever is being marketed. They follow the crowd without any real thought as to why and are easily manipulated into doing/believing things that are not necessarily in their best interest.


----------



## David Platt

ort said:


> It's funny, but 99% of the time, when one person is telling someone else they need to think for themselves, what they are really saying is, "You need to think like me."


ort wins the internet for today.  :up:


----------



## shoehorn

jcthorne said:


> Iphone is nowhere in the corporate world except for 'BYOD' which is dead on arrival in any organization that has data security issues.


I know plenty of organizations that give out only iPhones because they are much more secure and easy to manage over Android devices... Think about it: every iPhone and iPad run a 100% identical OS, it's always the same. A breeze to manage, but with Android, there are many different versions of the OS, PLUS the crap GUI that all the manufacturers force on them, hundreds of combinations. I think most companies prefer iOS due to that one fact.


----------



## aadam101

Damn....I wanted Tivo to support my Palm Pre!


----------



## SullyND

aadam101 said:


> Damn....I wanted Tivo to support my Palm Pre!


Pft. I love my Palm V. No stream for it


----------



## poofy

Come on, bring on Android support please.


----------



## magnox

shoehorn said:


> I know plenty of organizations that give out only iPhones because they are much more secure and easy to manage over Android devices... Think about it: every iPhone and iPad run a 100% identical OS, it's always the same. A breeze to manage, but with Android, there are many different versions of the OS, PLUS the crap GUI that all the manufacturers force on them, hundreds of combinations. I think most companies prefer iOS due to that one fact.


Our company was 100% berry; its probably 95% iphone now. We use global iron to tie things down. Corporate is huge for apple now.

Android is fragmented like you say; we had issues with certain manufacturers email clients not even supporting certain active sync policy.


----------



## jcthorne

Corporate use of Android does not use the manufacturers email clients. Secure email requires a secure client. Our company and many that we deal with in the Energy sector and medical sector use a client called Touchdown.

Just like for PCs, every corporate android we issue runs the same os and software load There is NO fragmentation. Try getting apple to do that.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

mr_smits said:


> Google Play app market is about to surpass Apple app store. I think they are about tied at 700k each.


Yay they both will now have 300k fart apps and 300k flashlight apps and about 100 that really matter.


----------



## jcthorne

With all the stream diffeculties, network etc and poor video quality and reliability concerns...I am begining to think the fact that android support caused me not to purchase yet might have been a good thing.

Perhaps my current solution of kmttg and then just copy the vid to my android phone works well enough to not purchase the stream at all.....


----------



## aaronwt

I am kind of glad that the Stream did not support Android. Only because it forced me to purchase a SlingBox 350. Which overall has been better than my old HavaHD. Although I still have both connected using the pass through option on the SlingBox.

The longer it takes to get Android support the less likely I will get the stream. SInce I plan on getting their six tuner box, if it's released next year, and it should have the stream capabilites built in.


----------



## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> SInce I plan on getting their six tuner box, if it's released next year, and it should have the stream capabilites built in.


I've heard this a few times. Is that viable rumor or a wish that the next version will be 6 tuner and will have stream capabilities built in?


----------



## aaronwt

mr_smits said:


> I've heard this a few times. Is that viable rumor or a wish that the next version will be 6 tuner and will have stream capabilities built in?


Pace was going to come out with a six tuner TiVo for cable companies. No mention about a retail box. But TiVo has mentioned that stream capabilites would be built into a future box.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/24/tivo-shows-off-pace-built-xg1-six-tuner-gateway-dvr-it-plans-to/


----------



## mr_smits

Interesting. Good to know that it isn't just a wish list.


----------



## rifleman69

jcthorne said:


> Iphone is nowhere in the corporate world except for 'BYOD' which is dead on arrival in any organization that has data security issues.


Wells Fargo would beg to differ with you.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

rifleman69 said:


> Wells Fargo would beg to differ with you.


And the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency (ICE) http://news.yahoo.com/federal-agency-switch-iphone-drop-blackberry-115945174--sector.html


----------



## aaronwt

I would be highly pissed if my company forced me to use an iPhone.


----------



## magnus

aaronwt said:


> I would be highly pissed if my company forced me to use an iPhone.


Oh the inhumanity of it all. That would just be the end of the world I am sure.


----------



## aaronwt

magnus said:


> Oh the inhumanity of it all. That would just be the end of the world I am sure.


Pretty close

It's bad enough that I have to use this Motorola phone for work.


----------



## magnus

aaronwt said:


> Pretty close
> 
> It's bad enough that I have to use this Motorola phone for work.


I have to use BB. That's enough to make one really cry.


----------



## DeWitt

Apple finally got smart and listened to the corporate worlds concerns. Now they are the darling of corporate IT, most often in my experience as the replacement for blackberry.

Not naming company names but almost all my friends with corporate phones have iPhones or are awaiting an upgrade to one.

My personal phone by the way, a Galaxy Nexus.


----------



## mr_smits

As a long-time Tivo customer, it's not simply disappointing that the _Apple first, Android later_ development strategy is so outdated. For me, it throws into doubt their long-term strategic vision and ability to execute that vision, gain customers, thrive/grow, and continue to innovate. Do I want to continue to invest in products from a company with that strategy? I've invested thousands so far, but do I want to keep doing so? That is the big question.

The one piece that I'm clinging to is that _maybe _the development cycle for Stream was such a long process (2009-ish?) that the iPhone was the only game in town so they thought it was a waste to develop for another platform (Blackberry being impossible back then despite market share). I hope that is the reason there is still no Android support for Stream.


----------



## Dan203

I think it's more a fact of limited resources. I've personally dealt with their engineering department before and I know that they work on a budget and have to delegate resources to each specific project. It's likely they only had the budget to develop the app for one or the other at launch and chose iOS because it was the most likely to result in a successful launch. As was mentioned earlier in the thread the metrics clearly show that iOS users are typically wealthier, use their devices more often and spend more money on apps/accessories. If I was developing something like this and only had the budget to target either iOS or Android I'd have chosen iOS as well. It just makes the most sense from a business perspective.

Also you need to remember that the target for this is NOT smart phones but tablets. It works on the iPhone, but their target was clearly the iPad. And when you look at the data for tablets the numbers are even more skewed in Apple's favor.

Dan


----------



## mattack

mr_smits said:


> As a long-time Tivo customer, it's not simply disappointing that the _Apple first, Android later_ development strategy is so outdated.


How is it outdated? APPLE DOES NOT HAVE THE FRAGMENTATION. You would have to support a bunch of different versions of Android, etc. or have a MUCH smaller target market if you support only the latest Android. (You can STILL buy devices running old versions of Android that cannot update to newer Androids.)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I doubt the lack of android support is a long-term issue, much less part of some _long-term strategy._ The Stream has been out for all of 2 months and it sounds like the issue will be resolved in months.


----------



## lrhorer

ort said:


> I'm not going to take the time to try and convince you that apple users are not "sheeple". It's completely pointless.


Why would you need to convince me? I never used the term, nor am I personally entirely convinced the term applies more to Ipad users than Android users. Certainly some fraction of both qualify.

It is never pointless to make a point, and to do so, regardless of the point, requires supplying facts and solid theories to backup one's point. Failing to do so is little more than bleating, "Is not!".



ort said:


> When people say "sheeple" or refer to others as "sheep" what they really mean is "someone who made a different decision than they did".


That is obvious. It also, however, suggests that a majority of people who made the decision merely did so primarily because the decision is a popular one. I'm afraid, whatever the subject, you are going to be hard pressed to prove anything is otherwise the case in the same breath as declaring a platform to be popular. Whether you like it or not, for any popular item, some fairly large fraction of the people who support it do so primarily because it is popular.

In a university study a couple of decades ago, the researchers were able to identify two quite distinct groupings of humans into which virtually all people fell. One group was labeled "sheep" and the other "goats". As the name implied, sheep tended to often be followers, although almost all leaders were also sheep. In effect, sheep were comfortable in a group and generally sought out the group and its activities, whether as leaders or followers. Their thinking very fundamentally is influenced by what is deemed popular. The sheep group makes up the vast majority of humans.

Goats, OTOH, had almost no desire at all to either lead or follow (and often not even an ability to do so). They are not comfortable with arbitrary rules or popular trends, and they question authority out of hand. They are independent thinkers and often care very little what others think of them. If they choose to partake of a popular item, the popularity is purely incidental to the nature of the item. Goats are in a decided minority, compared to sheep, although not exceedingly rare.

WRT this discussion, how many goats do you think use Ipads? Some actual numbers would be nice. This goat surely does not, but then he doesn't use an Android tablet, either.



ort said:


> It's a stupid phrase, regardless of who it is directed at. I've seen it used to describe all sorts of different people.


I don't know how stupid it is. It is certainly often accurate. If it weren't, no one would ever have bought a pet rock.



ort said:


> It runs on the assumption that everyone who isn't YOU, and came to the exact same conclusions as YOU, is a mindless moron who can't think rationally.


I never used the term, so I surely cannot fathom why you are putting such emphasis on the word "you". I certainly have come across an unconscionable number of mindless morons, but being one does not prevent them from sometimes hitting on the right answer. Sometimes the popular answer is the best one. The two are not fundamentally related, however.



ort said:


> It's just a lazy, ugly phrase, and it comes from a bad place of the human psyche. It's divisive and belittling.


Divisive? I would rather not be associated in any way with mindless morons, thank you very much, so anything which in any way separates them from the rest of us is a good thing. Failing to be divisive is certainly not a good thing. What's more, who on Earth says mindless morons should not belittled? Stupidity causes far, far more pain, suffering, and death than all hatred and all wars put together.


----------



## lrhorer

atmuscarella said:


> I disagree.


Yeah, me too.



atmuscarella said:


> While it may have little negative effects on others when corporations successfully turn people into sheeple, there are significant negative effects when tyrants like Hitler or Osama Bin Laden do.


Oh, bull. The negative effects of sheeple-izing by giant corporations is far wider reaching and far more detrimental than Hitler or OBL in their wildest dreams. Hitler killed perhaps 6 million people. OBL perhaps a few thousand. It's possible corporations have killed many, many millions of people, but far worse than killing, corporations leech away freedom far more effectively than any government ever has or can, and they do it on the scale of hundreds of millions of people.



atmuscarella said:


> Then of course calling people sheeple may just be an attempt to turn them into sheeple of another stripe. Samsung's recent anti-apple commercial is doing that and the tactic is often used in politics.


Yeah, that's the real problem. Many people seek not to eliminate groups, but to recruit from another group into their own.



atmuscarella said:


> On the topic of if Apple's customers are sheeple or not, I am fairly certain most are not. However if someone isn't making anything from camping out in front of an apple store just to replace the iphone they camped out to get last year with a new one, I am guessing they are.


My question is, "How many people really have any actual need for a tablet in the first place?" I surely don't.


----------



## Dan203

lrhorer said:


> My question is, "How many people really have any actual need for a tablet in the first place?" I surely don't.


I use my iPad constantly. I use it to play social games with my firends/family, I use it to surf the web on the couch (I'm doing that right now), I use it to read magazines in the bathroom and I use it to watch TiVo in bed. I typically run through 50-70% of the battery every single day. So while I may not "need" a tablet I certainly get a lot of use out of mine.

Dan


----------



## global_dev

lrhorer said:


> My question is, "How many people really have any actual need for a tablet in the first place?" I surely don't.


I have no need for a laptop or desktop really. 10 years ago i almost bought into the smart display stuff, but it was missing something and a too pricey for an RDP thin client monitor . All i wanted to do was sit on my couch rather than at a desk. and the TV, with a MCE wireless keyboard turned out to be just a pain... for anything other than MCE

I can't wait for stream for android. I was about to pick up the stream since we have an iphone and ipad in the house, but I like my ICS and JB more at the moment.


----------



## mr_smits

mattack said:


> How is it outdated? APPLE DOES NOT HAVE THE FRAGMENTATION. You would have to support a bunch of different versions of Android, etc. or have a MUCH smaller target market if you support only the latest Android. (You can STILL buy devices running old versions of Android that cannot update to newer Androids.)


What is your point? Apple has a different model than Android. They release 1 new device version each year (typically), and they do not allow others to produce devices with the same software. They charge a premium for their devices and may consumers don't mind paying. This extreme control means they can dictate almost every aspect of the experience.

Android is different. Because there is a wide variety of hardware and vendors producing devices, there are many older software phones still around. However, that is changing. It just takes time for the old to be replaced with the new.

So there may need to be two different versions of the Tivo app to support in the mean time. How is that any different from the usual experience for software development? Most companies must produce a working product that works with Windows 7 and XP or at least maintain some compatibility between versions.

Fragmentation isn't stopping any major app developer from providing working apps for gingerbread and newer which represents the majority of Android phones. Sure it may be _easier_ to develop for Apple devices because of their hyper control ecosystem, but since when is doing something because it is easier the better choice?


----------



## jrtroo

mr_smits said:


> since when is doing something because it is easier the better choice?


Easier goes hand in hand with cheaper. Easier and cheaper combined with higher usage levels often means more sales and revenue/profit.

Which makes ios as the initial development market an easy decision.

I'm an android user, and realize that my xoom will be second in line. No big deal.


----------



## lrhorer

Dan203 said:


> I use my iPad constantly. I use it to play social games with my firends/family, I use it to surf the web on the couch (I'm doing that right now), I use it to read magazines in the bathroom and I use it to watch TiVo in bed. I typically run through 50-70% of the battery every single day. So while I may not "need" a tablet I certainly get a lot of use out of mine.


No doubt, but as you say, there is a difference between "use"and "need". I don't play games of any sort, and I do not surf the web, at least not in any way that would be reasonable with a tablet. I have an e-reader that does a better job for reading, and its battery lasts about two months, not just one day.

I avoid staring at a computer screen whenever possible, which gets me down to about 12 - 14 hours a day, on average. When I do stare at a computer screen, 9" is nowhere nearly acceptable for virtually anything I do. Even 21" is quite too small to be acceptable. In a minute , I am going in to practice on an RC flight simulator on a 150" screen. It's a little undersized for the application. A full sized keyboard with a separate numeric keypad is absolutely essential, and a mouse or other pointing device with fewer than 6 buttons is useless.

The bottom line, I suppose, is I do not generally speaking use a PC for recreation. I rely on other devices for that. More importantly, I do not *WANT* my PCs to be portable. It's nothing but an excuse for work to infringe even more heavily on my free time. When I am at a restaurant, or the park, or at the houses of friends or family, work just has to wait. If I had a mobile device with me , they could button-hook me into doing work remotely.


----------



## lrhorer

global_dev said:


> I have no need for a laptop or desktop really.


A little over 5 years ago, there was almost a revolt among my engineering colleagues because the IT department did not want to spend the money for over two hundred 24" monitors. A few of us went so far as to threaten to quit. Some of the rest of us, like me, just bit the bullet and bought our own, bringing them to work. Finally, the VP of engineering had enough of it. He got some backing from the senior team and read the IT folks the riot act, and they finally bought the monitors. Many of us are still using our own monitors, along with the ones they bought us. Most of us have dual 24" or larger monitors, and some of us have three. It's not overkill, and it does greatly enhance our performance and reduce stress.


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> What is your point? Apple has a different model than Android. They release 1 new device version each year (typically), and they do not allow others to produce devices with the same software. They charge a premium for their devices and may consumers don't mind paying. This extreme control means they can dictate almost every aspect of the experience.
> 
> Android is different. Because there is a wide variety of hardware and vendors producing devices, there are many older software phones still around. However, that is changing. It just takes time for the old to be replaced with the new.
> 
> So there may need to be two different versions of the Tivo app to support in the mean time. How is that any different from the usual experience for software development? Most companies must produce a working product that works with Windows 7 and XP or at least maintain some compatibility between versions.
> 
> Fragmentation isn't stopping any major app developer from providing working apps for gingerbread and newer which represents the majority of Android phones. Sure it may be _easier_ to develop for Apple devices because of their hyper control ecosystem, but since when is doing something because it is easier the better choice?


You're just not getting it.

Making the iOS version first cost them less money, took less time and made the product available to more of their customers sooner. There is no rational reason to code the Android version first.

Maybe they should have waited 6 more months to release it with support for both platforms, but who does that actually benefit? It doesn't actually result in you getting to use the product sooner.


----------



## atmuscarella

ort said:


> You're just not getting it.
> 
> Making the iOS version first cost them less money, took less time and made the product available to more of their customers sooner. There is no rational reason to code the Android version first.
> 
> Maybe they should have waited 6 more months to release it with support for both platforms, but who does that actually benefit? It doesn't actually result in you getting to use the product sooner.


I have no idea about how much time any of this should take so if someone does I would be interested in their thoughts.

In any event I find it pretty unthinkable that it should take 6 months to develop an android app to do the same thing that an ios app does once you have developed the ios app. Does the nature of android app development limit the number of individual developers working on the project? or can you simply add more developers to speed up the process? Anyone have some fact based thoughts on this?

It seems to me the longer TiVo waits to get android support the less likely they are to sell more devices because of it.

On a someone separate note if they do get an android app up and working is there any reason will will not be able to use it on a Google TV device?


----------



## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> I have no idea about how much time any of this should take so if someone does I would be interested in their thoughts.
> 
> In any event I find it pretty unthinkable that it should take 6 months to develop an android app to do the same thing that an ios app does once you have developed the ios app. Does the nature of android app development limit the number of individual developers working on the project? or can you simply add more developers to speed up the process? Anyone have some fact based thoughts on this?


The two are mutually exclusive. iOS apps are written in a language called Objective C using an iOS specific SDK that is exclusive to Mac OSX. Android apps are written in Java/C++ with an Android specific SDK that's available for all platforms. Very little, if any, code can be shared between them.

As for putting more developers on the project to speed it up... for a project like this that's probably not practical. It's likely just one guy doing this. The only way to effectively split a project amongst multiple developers is to give them each specific features or section of the application to work on. The TiVo app is relatively simple, so there aren't many sections, plu the main portion of the app is already functional. The only section that needs to be worked on is the Stream support and video playback. They might be able to use two guys, one for the backend communication stuff and another working on the UI portion, but adding more then that probably would hinder the project more then help it.

As I said above the delay in Android support is more likely a budgetary issue. It's also possible that these apps are developed by 3rd party contractors (TiVo Desktop is) and they have to wait for the contractor to schedule them in. In any case I'm sure they're doing what they can to make it available as quickly as possible. It's not like they are just telling the developer "take your time, we don't need Android support".



atmuscarella said:


> It seems to me the longer TiVo waits to get android support the less likely they are to sell more devices because of it.


Why? Is there some competing product that all the Android users are going to go with instead? Nope. They're just as likely to sell Streams to Android users right now as they will be 3 months from now. In fact, if anything, there might be slightly more demand after the holidays since a lot of people will get Android devices as gifts.

You're confusing you're own desire for the product with the actual market.

Dan


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> ...
> You're confusing you're own desire for the product with the actual market.
> 
> Dan


Thanks for your information on how things work.

I actually have little desire for the stream at this point, I might have purchased it as an impulse buy when it first came out if it supported android but it really doesn't fit into my current video consumption patterns (I don't watch video on my android tablet).

My thoughts on reduced over all demand the longer android support isn't provided is based the fact that many people believe the next TiVo DVR (Series 5?) will have stream support built in and that it is coming in 2013, which may reduce some demand the longer time goes on without android support. I agree as more people buy/get tablets that are supported by the stream demand should still go up.


----------



## Dan203

That's some pretty broad speculation. Other then a casual mention during a conference call that a "future" TiVo model would have the Stream capabilities built in, and some speculation on this forum that the Pace XG1 would turn into a retail product, there is no indication that a Series 5 will be released next year. If anyone is seriously holding off buying a Stream because they think that's going to happen then they could be waiting for a long time. Then again I could see people holding off until after CES just to see if TiVo has anything new planned. Although even then a 6 tuner TiVo with Stream capabilities built in is likely to be really expensive, so even if the rumors are true most people would probably still be better off sticking with their current TiVos and buying the Stream as an add-on.

Dan


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> Making the iOS version first cost them less money, took less time and made the product available to more of their customers sooner. There is no rational reason to code the Android version first.
> 
> Maybe they should have waited 6 more months to release it with support for both platforms, but who does that actually benefit? It doesn't actually result in you getting to use the product sooner.


Tivo should have been developed and released the apps simultaneously not one before the other. Tivo is supposed to be easy for customers _and potential customers_. Releasing a product that supports only a fraction of the market is confusing and a bad business decision. I understand it was a decision based on limited resources, but it was a myopic one especially considering the latest market share with Android at 72.4% and iOS 13.9%. This is global market share, but the U.S. numbers are likely trending similarly. 

If I owned Stream I'd rarely use it to stream to my 3rd generation iPad. If the Tivo Stream had Android support I'd be more likely to stream from my Galaxy Nexus smart phone than a tablet because I have my phone on me most of the time. If I'm outside enjoying the weather and want to watch a local news highlight, I'd simply pull out my Android phone and stream the first 5 minutes of the local news. I don't see me using it to watch an hour long program, but I would use it to watch a half hour show. Maybe I am the outlier in how I would use it.


----------



## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> it was a myopic one especially considering the latest market share with Android at 72.4% and iOS 13.9%. This is global market share, but the U.S. numbers are likely trending similarly.


As has been said several times in this thread those numbers don't reflect the market for a Stream. First off Android is used on a LOT of dumb phones which wouldn't even be able to use the TiVo app. Second the Stream's main target is tablet users, not smart phone users, and the iPad still holds a majority share in that market. Lastly studies have shown that iOS users use their devices more frequently and spend more money on apps and accessories. With a niche product like the Stream you have to target the audience that's most likely to actually buy and use it.

Dan


----------



## jcaudle

SalemCat said:


> No idea.
> 
> How many Android and Windows devices, including Computers, were sold last year ?


a lot of Android devices and windows computers...Tivo should support Android. However Windows phone is a waste of time for their 2% market share.


----------



## Dan203

Windows 8 will overtake iOS and Android in a few months, if you count all the desktop PCs running it. So if their only criteria is market share then I'd think a Windows 8 version should take precedence over Android. 

Seriously who cares why they choose iOS first? I realize some people are upset that they can't use a Stream yet, but they obviously had some reason. Whether it was a business decision or simply that they like Apple devices more, who cares? They've stated publicly that they are working on Android support. *****ing about it isn't going to make them release it any faster.

Dan


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> Tivo should have been developed and released the apps simultaneously not one before the other. Tivo is supposed to be easy for customers _and potential customers_. Releasing a product that supports only a fraction of the market is confusing and a bad business decision. I understand it was a decision based on limited resources, but it was a myopic one especially considering the latest market share with Android at 72.4% and iOS 13.9%. This is global market share, but the U.S. numbers are likely trending similarly.


http://readwrite.com/2012/10/25/apple-dominates-q3-us-smartphone-sales-through-big-three-carriers

Or not. We get all sorts of these reports from analytics companies comparing this data and that data... putting up these big percentage marketshare numbers... but they never really say where any of the data comes from. None of these companies puts out real numbers on sales. So they area all based on estimates and who knows what.

I'm sure there are a ton of Android devices out there, but a whole lot of them aren't being used as smartphones.


----------



## magnus

mr_smits said:


> As a long-time Tivo customer, it's not simply disappointing that the Apple first, Android later development strategy is so outdated. For me, it throws into doubt their long-term strategic vision and ability to execute that vision, gain customers, thrive/grow, and continue to innovate. Do I want to continue to invest in products from a company with that strategy? I've invested thousands so far, but do I want to keep doing so? That is the big question.
> 
> The one piece that I'm clinging to is that maybe the development cycle for Stream was such a long process (2009-ish?) that the iPhone was the only game in town so they thought it was a waste to develop for another platform (Blackberry being impossible back then despite market share). I hope that is the reason there is still no Android support for Stream.


As an Apple/Mac user.... I love it. It used to be Windows first and screw everyone else. But I do believe that Tivo will update the app to work with android soon.


----------



## mattack

mr_smits said:


> What is your point?
> 
> Android is different. Because there is a wide variety of hardware and vendors producing devices, there are many older software phones still around. However, that is changing. It just takes time for the old to be replaced with the new.


You are talking about the *HARDWARE* being replaced. I am saying that Android has fragmentation because MANY phones do not get Android updates, and they still sell NEW phones running "obsolete" versions of Android that will never get updates. (Confession: My major source of news about Android phones is the various CNET podcasts like "First Look".)

Apple devices get updates for a few YEARS.


----------



## mattack

Dumb question time -- I can watch (both streamed and converted) shows on an iPhone, right?

I think I proved that myself, I already had the TiVo app&#8230; TiVo sure makes the iPad most prevalent in the mentions on their web site too. (Back when I had streaming netflix, I watched streaming netflix on my iPhone a few times.. yeah, not routinely, but it was useful to have. It's a shame that the free Amazon Prime Instant Videos don't seem to be available on iOS at all.)

I will eventually get an iPad, but might get a Stream this weekend, so I can watch my Tivo's content on a treadmill in a different room. (For some content, again, the small screen won't be a big deal&#8230; especially for stuff I'm more listening to than watching.)


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> Windows 8 will overtake iOS and Android in a few months, if you count all the desktop PCs running it. So if their only criteria is market share then I'd think a Windows 8 version should take precedence over Android.


 You make a good point, Dan. I'm bowing out of this thread now. It has been fun.


----------



## Dan203

mattack said:


> Dumb question time -- I can watch (both streamed and converted) shows on an iPhone, right?
> 
> I think I proved that myself, I already had the TiVo app TiVo sure makes the iPad most prevalent in the mentions on their web site too. (Back when I had streaming netflix, I watched streaming netflix on my iPhone a few times.. yeah, not routinely, but it was useful to have. It's a shame that the free Amazon Prime Instant Videos don't seem to be available on iOS at all.)
> 
> I will eventually get an iPad, but might get a Stream this weekend, so I can watch my Tivo's content on a treadmill in a different room. (For some content, again, the small screen won't be a big deal especially for stuff I'm more listening to than watching.)


Yes. The Stream works with both the iPad and iPhone.

Dan


----------



## vectorcatch

mattack said:


> It's a shame that the free Amazon Prime Instant Videos don't seem to be available on iOS at all.)


I know this is a TiVo forum, but just to be clear there is an app for that on the iPad.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/amazon-instant-video/id545519333?mt=8

However, I do agree about it being a shame it's not available for the iPhone.


----------



## Austin Bike

jcaudle said:


> a lot of Android devices and windows computers...Tivo should support Android. However Windows phone is a waste of time for their 2% market share.


If you spent any time working with Microsoft you would find that when there is something that they want, development dollars are available. If they "buy" the development, that would push it to the front faster than the android that they have to pay to create.

NRE goes a long way in getting your things done.


----------



## steve614

lrhorer said:


> Goats, OTOH, had almost no desire at all to either lead or follow (and often not even an ability to do so). They are not comfortable with arbitrary rules or popular trends, and they question authority out of hand. They are independent thinkers and often care very little what others think of them. If they choose to partake of a popular item, the popularity is purely incidental to the nature of the item. Goats are in a decided minority, compared to sheep, although not exceedingly rare.


Interesting.


Not comfortable with arbitrary rules or popular trends - check.
Questions authority out of hand - check.
Independent thinker - check.
Cares very little what others think of them - check.
If they choose to partake of a popular item (for me, it's TiVo), the popularity is purely incidental to the nature of the item - check.
Seems that I am 100% goat. I don't know if that's good or bad.


----------



## ort

I should probably just let this go, but whatever... reading this story today made me think of this thread...

http://allthingsd.com/20121125/were-holiday-shopping-online-with-ipads-for-ipads/

Just to sum up, total Black Friday shopping traffic...

iPhones = 8.7% of total traffic
iPads = 9.8% of total traffic
All of Android = 5.5% of total traffic

Breaking down just the tablets:
iPad = 88% of traffic
Kindle = 2.4%
Galaxy = 1.8%
Nook = 3.1%
Other = 4.4%


----------



## aaronwt

I didn't even turn on any of my tablets on Black Friday. Any online shopping I did, I used my desktop PCs. And I definitely had no desire to shop with my cell phones ultra tiny 4.3" screen. I couldn't imagine doing it on the iPhones even smaller screens.


----------



## Dan203

I used my iPad to do some shopping while watching TV. In fact I find that I do 95% of my couch surfing on my iPad now even though I have a full blown Windows laptop sitting under the coffee table.

Dan


----------



## ShayL

Dan203 said:


> I used my iPad to do some shopping while watching TV. In fact I find that I do 95% of my couch surfing on my iPad now even though I have a full blown Windows laptop sitting under the coffee table.
> 
> Dan


Why don't you swap that windows laptop for a mac and port VideoReDo over to mac?


----------



## Dan203

ShayL said:


> Why don't you swap that windows laptop for a mac and port VideoReDo over to mac?


If it were that simple I would have done it a long time ago. Unfortunately VRD is heavily rooted in Windows APIs and would need almost a complete rewrite to port to mac.

Dan


----------



## ShayL

Dan203 said:


> If it were that simple I would have done it a long time ago. Unfortunately VRD is heavily rooted in Windows APIs and would need almost a complete rewrite to port to mac.
> 
> Dan


I would expect nothing less than that. Cocoa and Objective C take a while to become fluent in.


----------



## Dan203

If we ever do it we'll likely move all the low level routines into simple C++ classes that can be cross compiled and use something cross platform, like QT, for the UI. That way we can have one product for both platforms. Although some stuff, like the codecs, might still be a problem as not all of the ones we use are available in Mac builds.

We're getting way off topic here though. 

Dan


----------



## ScaryMike

mattack said:


> It's a shame that the free Amazon Prime Instant Videos don't seem to be available on iOS at all.)


amazon prime instant streaming is totally on iOS (iPad only): https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/amazon-instant-video/id545519333?mt=8


----------



## mattack

ScaryMike said:


> amazon prime instant streaming is totally on iOS (iPad only): https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/amazon-instant-video/id545519333?mt=8


Oh thanks, I must have missed that.. That's another reason for me to get an iPad sooner. (Using it for downloaded Tivo Stream material is another.)

Bummer, I wish it were on the iPhone too.


----------



## Aero 1

Dan203 said:


> If we ever do it we'll likely move all the low level routines into simple C++ classes that can be cross compiled and use something cross platform, like QT, for the UI. That way we can have one product for both platforms. Although some stuff, like the codecs, might still be a problem as not all of the ones we use are available in Mac builds.
> 
> We're getting way off topic here though.
> 
> Dan


how about you get off the sofa and start on a Mac version 

how about some kind of imovie plugin? i can imagine you are missing a nice market segment. especially that tivo went all in with iOS so far.


----------



## Dan203

I actually considered doing an iOS version after the Stream was released, but then I discovered that the shows downloaded by the Stream are encrypted so there is no way an iOS version would ever be able to touch them. (I was hoping they would be standard MP4 files stored in the common video directory)

I'm sure we are missing a bit of market share by not having a Mac version, but Macs still make a relatively small percentage of the total market and with Parallels and Boot Camp Mac users can easily boot into Windows and use VideoReDo if they want. 

Dan


----------



## badtuned

Has there been any info how the stream is protected. Just trying to understand if it's possible to do own hacks if someone is willing to use time to investigate/hack these streams.


----------



## Dan203

Based on my brief investigation it appears that they use encrypted HLS, which uses https encryption which would be very difficult to hack. 

Dan


----------



## vurbano

who makes these asinine decisions to only support Iphones and Ipads? Is tivo trying to put themselves out of business? First the do not build the ability to stream into the boxes themselves making you buy a silly add on streaming box and then they restrict streaming to a tiny share of the market?


----------



## vurbano

Dan203 said:


> I used my iPad to do some shopping while watching TV. In fact I find that I do 95% of my couch surfing on my iPad now even though I have a full blown Windows laptop sitting under the coffee table.
> 
> Dan


same here.


----------



## Davisadm

vurbano said:


> who makes these asinine decisions to only support Iphones and Ipads? Is tivo trying to put themselves out of business? First the do not build the ability to stream into the boxes themselves making you buy a silly add on streaming box and then they restrict streaming to a tiny share of the market?


What is asinine about only supporting iPhones and iPads, for now? They, especially the iPad, hold the largest market share!


----------



## Arcady

Apple currently holds 71% of the tablet market. How is that a tiny share?


----------



## morac

There's actually two reasons to support iOS first:

1. The iPhone 5 is outselling all other android phones combined in the U.S.

2. Usage of iOS greatly exceeds usage on Android. For example on Black Friday 88.3 percent of all tablet shopping was done on an iPad. Interestingly for mobile phones, 8.7% was done on an iPhone as opposed to 5.5% on Android. Yes other devices are eating into the iPad's market share, but it's still king at the moment.


----------



## aadam101

vurbano said:


> who makes these asinine decisions to only support Iphones and Ipads? Is tivo trying to put themselves out of business? First the do not build the ability to stream into the boxes themselves making you buy a silly add on streaming box and then they restrict streaming to a tiny share of the market?


Tiny share? Do you actually believe this? I don't understand why people who hate Apple need to be in denial about how popular they are. You don't have to like them but other people do.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

vurbano said:


> First the do not build the ability to stream into the boxes themselves making you buy a silly add on streaming box...


And if anyone thinks the $130 add-on is a silly thing now, the technology to do what the Stream does was not possible at reasonable consumer-level pricing 3 years ago. It would have added a lot more than that to the price of the Premiere if it were incorporated into the box.

Further, the Tivo app didn't exist yet and the iPad only first debuted about a month prior to the Premiere. So the primary market for the Stream literally didn't exist yet either. So why would they have incorporated it?

It'll be incorporated into the next generation hardware. By releasing an accessory for current hardware now rather than mandating an upgrade a year from now for people to complain about, they're a year ahead of most of their competition.

Talk about first world problems. This dead horse has been thoroughly beaten.


----------



## vurbano

aadam101 said:


> Tiny share? Do you actually believe this? I don't understand why people who hate Apple need to be in denial about how popular they are. You don't have to like them but other people do.


I dont hate apple Sparky, Infact I own an ipad2 and love it. But you are ignoring reality and math.


----------



## mr_smits

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Further, the Tivo app didn't exist yet and the iPad only first debuted about a month prior to the Premiere. So the primary market for the Stream literally didn't exist yet either. So why would they have incorporated it?


I'm not sure why, but I'm back in this thread...

I think the decision to go iOS only was the poor decision. Even if Tivo's 2009 era research showing that their current Tivo+Android users spend less and expected future Tivo+Android users would also spend less (ouiji board research?), the decision to not include streaming to a larger overall platform like web browser based streaming is confusing. I read that only about 12% of U.S. households own a tablet, and of the total iPads sold the U.S. has 20-30 million. Not bad. However, compare that to 200million+ personal computers owned in the U.S. Granted, not all of those would be able to use a Tivo Stream via browser, but the option would be there for current and potential customers to take advantage of Tivo Stream. To survive and thrive, Tivo needs to keep the customers it has and to expand.

As a comparison, Simple.tv allows streaming to Roku, iPad, or web browser. Sure there is no Android support yet (coming eventually), but there are at least a couple options for non-Apple devotees.


----------



## ort

They aren't going iOS only. They went iOS first.

If the decision was to put it out in September with iOS only, or wait 6 months and have it for both platforms, then I think they made the obvious and easy choice.

We're going around in circles.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mr_smits said:


> I'm not sure why, but I'm back in this thread...
> 
> I think the decision to go iOS only was the poor decision. Even if Tivo's 2009 era research showing that their current Tivo+Android users spend less and expected future Tivo+Android users would also spend less (ouiji board research?), the decision to not include streaming to a larger overall platform like web browser based streaming is confusing. I read that only about 12% of U.S. households own a tablet, and of the total iPads sold the U.S. has 20-30 million. Not bad. However, compare that to 200million+ personal computers owned in the U.S. Granted, not all of those would be able to use a Tivo Stream via browser, but the option would be there for current and potential customers to take advantage of Tivo Stream. To survive and thrive, Tivo needs to keep the customers it has and to expand.
> 
> As a comparison, Simple.tv allows streaming to Roku, iPad, or web browser. Sure there is no Android support yet (coming eventually), but there are at least a couple options for non-Apple devotees.


I don't believe Tivo's decision is to go iOS-only. An android app exists, and Stream support is coming with a future update. But I agree that Tivo should bring streaming and apps to more platforms. They should definitely redo their Windows app and start fresh there too, as well as other platforms.

They've been developing cloud services as well. In a perfect world, they'll be more platform-agnostic where it doesn't matter what device it's accessed from.


----------



## Austin Bike

vurbano said:


> who makes these asinine decisions to only support Iphones and Ipads? ...tiny share of the market?


Nothing personal, but if you are going to call someone asinine, make sure you have your facts straight.

I'm sure the decision was based on revenue, and it was the right decision. The primary target is tablets, not phones.


----------



## mattack

vurbano said:


> I dont hate apple Sparky, Infact I own an ipad2 and love it. But you are ignoring reality and math.


No, you are.. (Yes, I meant that to sound that way.)

Fragmentation abounds..

http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> They aren't going iOS only. They went iOS first.


Until Tivo Stream supports any other platform besides iOS, *it is iOS only*. Future promises of support for other platforms is nice in theory but really is meaningless vaporware.



ort said:


> If the decision was to put it out in September with iOS only, or wait 6 months and have it for both platforms, then I think they made the obvious and easy choice.


The series of earlier decisions that led to Tivo having to make that choice is the problem. To me, that is a leadership failure, really. If Android support really is so much more difficult then at least web browser support should have been available at launch. Imagine the wide appeal. With Tivo Stream browser support, any home networked computer becomes a Tivo device. Take a quick break at your computer and watch that recorded show. Stream the local news to your laptop while working on the back patio. I'd buy a Stream.


----------



## Dan203

The Stream is a first generation product. The initial development was likely just to see if they could get it to work and if it would sell. If it's successful then I'm sure they'll invest in supporting it on every platform they can. The method they use for Streaming, HLS, is an open standard so it can be supported on almost any device. It's all just a matter of writing the app.

Dan


----------



## ort

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20754182

Reading this article made me think of this thread. I'm sure the same challenges they encountered are being encountered by the TiVo Stream developers.


----------



## Austin Bike

Yeah, people forget that android is far more splintered. Apple has a pretty simplistic set of devices, so doing the QA on apps should be a lot easier. Imagine trying to do just the Samsung phones, let alone all of the other devices.


----------



## jcthorne

Like most developers, they would pick a core group of hardware and OS revision to begin support on, get that working and release it. Add devices via patches and updates as they go and release to additional devices as can. You have to start somewhere....or in Tivo's case, perhaps not.


----------



## Austin Bike

True, the idea is that you come up with something that works for 90% of the users and then anger the 10%, and work towards closing the gap. But, if the number of use cases (ie. devices and OS revs) is very large, then you have a massive matrix and you can't get to the 90%.

To support on iOS you can say Iphone 4, 4S and 5 with iOS 5 and 6. That is 6 use cases. For Ipad you can say Ipad 1 with iOS 5 (6 is not supported), 2 and 3 with iOS 5 and 6 and mini with iOS6 (5 is not supported). That is another 6 use cases. So roughly 12 cases for 95% of the apple customers. Yes, you could argue the 3GS/3G/3 (which they may support) but that isn't a huge departure.

Now, Just looking at Samsung, I see 5 different (current) android offerings. Not to mention what was offered last year, not to mention their tablets. Multiply that by all of the supported Android versions and you have a huge matrix. For Samsung alone. What about all of the other Andriod units.

A fragmented market is your worst enemy. I used to be in product development and when you had to make sure that your chip worked in everyone's platforms it was a major pain. People would ask why we couldn't get products to market quicker and the answer was always features, price, performance, pick any two. Unfortunately the market it driving the price, so you are trading off schedule or features (I count device support in features). So, do you choose to trade off schedule or other features in order to get it to android on time, or do you lag the android support in order to get it onto the market with the widest addressable base (it is targeted at tablets, not phones) or do you wait.

In my mind they did the smart thing - go after apple first, because it is easy, establish the market, then bring it out on android. If the target was phones and not tablets the choice would have been harder and they might have decided to do it the other way.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20754182
> 
> Reading this article made me think of this thread. I'm sure the same challenges they encountered are being encountered by the TiVo Stream developers.


Interesting article. I'm not sure why it is surprising that it is more difficult to develop for Android considering the entire ecosystem takes the opposite approach that iOS does. I suppose that they now know to build in a bit more time for Android development - at least for the next year or two as Gingerbread loses marketshare.


----------



## aaronwt

Well it's 2013 now. is there any new word on when the stream is coming to android? i would have purchased one months ago if there was Android support. Although at this point I'll take the release of the Mini over Android support for the Stream.


----------



## Dan203

TiVo is probably busy gearing up for CES next week. We probably wont hear anything until after the show.

Dan


----------



## alyssa

Maybe at the show ?

( she asked hopefully)

I'm really regretting giving my son an ipad mini for Christmas, in other words, I wish i had kept it for myself.


----------



## Aero 1

aaronwt said:


> Well it's 2013 now. is there any new word on when the stream is coming to android? i would have purchased one months ago if there was Android support. Although at this point I'll take the release of the Mini over Android support for the Stream.


I wouldnt count on it anytime soon, TiVos official android app doesn't even work on jelly bean. I got a nexus 7 months ago and still waiting for it to work. I check every week in the play store and it still says that it doesn't work on jelly bean.


----------



## jearley9

I would imagine that I'll be accused of starting a "conspiracy theory" but here is my best guess at why we don't have streaming on Android:

Money. ---> Fear

Explanation:

With iOS, locking down HD video out over HDMI out is controlled by Apple - done deal...

With Android, this is not so easy to do, as there are way too many paths that can end up with TiVo Stream reaching a TV that has no Tivo . This translates to lost revenue, and that is, as we C++ programmers say - ++ungood.

If, and only if, TiVo figures out how to lock down video out over HDMI for *all* Android devices, then we will see streaming support on Android released.


----------



## Austin Bike

Maybe too much of a conspiracy theory. However revenue > all else. When you can do something with apple and have total control, you have a lower cost. Doing things on android are more complicated and there is greater odds of someone getting around the system. I.e. lawsuits.


----------



## teklock

I wonder if you could install the apple app on a jailbroken apple tv and stream it that way?


----------



## Dan203

Austin Bike said:


> Maybe too much of a conspiracy theory. However revenue > all else. When you can do something with apple and have total control, you have a lower cost. Doing things on android are more complicated and there is greater odds of someone getting around the system. I.e. lawsuits.


Actually there is a technological issue as well. TiVo uses encrypted HLS for streaming. Apple invented the protocol so they support it on all their devices. However Android didn't add support until 4.0 (aka Ice Cream Sandwich). And until recently very few tablets existed that used Android 4.0+. So it makes sense that TiVo would wait for greater market penetration of 4.0+ before dedicating resources to an Android app.

Increased sales of the Kindle Fire HD and Nexus line of tablets, both of which run 4.0+, is what likely motivated TiVo to finally start working on an Android app for the Stream. However they had a good 6 month head start on the iOS app so it could still be a few months before we see the Android app released.


----------



## steffen707

Dan203 said:


> TiVo will eventually add a Windows 8 app, which would then support most laptops either directly or via dual boot (i.e. bootcamp) or VM setups.
> 
> Dan


I love my tivo, and they piss me off so much at the same time. Slingbox lets you watch from mac, pc, android, iphone, ipad, android pad. Tivo is so dumb for not including pc, and mac. Guess i'll stick with my tivo HD until they allow PC viewing or my tivo HD dies. Slave to the tivo......


----------



## Dan203

While it's taken longer then I expected I still think we'll see something in the next year. TiVo showed a product at the cable show that was basically the entire TiVo UI, complete with playback, running in a web browser. It was for some Charter CloudTV thing, but if they release something similar to the public then we could see streaming supported on any device with a web browser.


----------



## qz3fwd

All the android fanboys keep chastizing Tivo for supporting Apple iOS first.
Well, follow the money. It just makes good business sense and enabled faster time to market. Alternatively follow the rule of diminishing returns when you consider the fragmentation and support compexity of the android universe.

In other words, if you are a general fighting a war, and you have only 1 bomb to drop across enemy lines, do you drop the 1 bomb you have where you are assured to kill 1,000,000 enemy soldiers, or do you drop the bomb where you have a 30% chance of killing 1,200,000 enemy soldiers? You make the decision.

Anyhow, I am sure eventually Tivo will release an Android app which I hopefully can use on my moto razor phone, since I dont have any Apple tablets nor phones.....


----------



## mr_smits

qz3fwd said:


> All the android fanboys keep chastizing Tivo for supporting Apple iOS first.
> Well, follow the money. It just makes good business sense and enabled faster time to market. Alternatively follow the rule of diminishing returns when you consider the fragmentation and support compexity of the android universe.
> 
> In other words, if you are a general fighting a war, and you have only 1 bomb to drop across enemy lines, do you drop the 1 bomb you have where you are assured to kill 1,000,000 enemy soldiers, or do you drop the bomb where you have a 30% chance of killing 1,200,000 enemy soldiers? You make the decision.


I'm saying this as a long-time Tivo customer, as a former Tivo investor, and as a technology fan. For me, it's more about Tivo's poor leadership and the inability to regain the position as market leader or innovator in the DVR space. Someone in the Tivo chain of command screwed up by downplaying Android and web browser support this long. At least one of those platforms should have been available at Stream launch so that even if you aren't an iOS owner, you could use your computer browser to Stream to your laptop or desktop. Don't roll out a product that is completely unavailable to a huge portion of potential customers. With different leadership, Tivo would have been trail blazing with the Roamio line rather than playing much needed catch-up. It's embarrassing. Even startup Aereo is rumored to have their Android client available this month - they already have web browser support.

First, let me say that it has gotten better if and when the promised features "coming soon!" with Roamio line and Mini are eventually delivered, then Tivo will be about tied with the DISH Hopper and Joey product that has Slingbox capability. That means I will be buying a Roamio and Minis to replace my Premieres.


----------



## Grakthis

qz3fwd said:


> All the android fanboys keep chastizing Tivo for supporting Apple iOS first.
> Well, follow the money. It just makes good business sense and enabled faster time to market. Alternatively follow the rule of diminishing returns when you consider the fragmentation and support compexity of the android universe.
> 
> In other words, if you are a general fighting a war, and you have only 1 bomb to drop across enemy lines, do you drop the 1 bomb you have where you are assured to kill 1,000,000 enemy soldiers, or do you drop the bomb where you have a 30% chance of killing 1,200,000 enemy soldiers? You make the decision.
> 
> Anyhow, I am sure eventually Tivo will release an Android app which I hopefully can use on my moto razor phone, since I dont have any Apple tablets nor phones.....


Virtually no one is chastising TiVo for supporting iOS first.

Read the thread, read what people are saying, and respond to what people are saying. Don't respond to what you wish people were saying so you could post your inanity.


----------



## zgamer

Does anyone know if the stream when being viewed off an iOS device can be used with air play?


----------



## morac

zgamer said:


> Does anyone know if the stream when being viewed off an iOS device can be used with air play?


Not without jailbreaking.


----------



## gigaguy

I'm a newbie, but seems like Mac users have less options with that Tivo Desktop software, right, which seems to be written for Windows?
I know I gotta keep searching...still trying to see what can be done with a Mac and Tivo..


----------



## Dan203

For Macs you have to use a 3rd party program or pay for Roxio Toast to transfer programs from your TiVo.


----------



## mattack

Yes, unfortunately. The 3rd party program that is currently updated the most is kmttg
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=387725

That is the one that allows you to download shows from your Tivo to your computer (if they're not copy protected). It can also transcode (e.g. convert for ipad, etc..) but I have never used that part. Unfortunately kmttg is Java so the UI is kind of funky.. But at least it works well.

There is also pyTivo that you can use to get shows BACK on your Tivo from your computer.


----------



## ShayL

morac said:


> Not without jailbreaking.


It sucks that you can airplay it without jailbreaking and using airplay mirroring.


----------



## ilovedvrs

iOS is a bunch of crap.

crazy a company made hardware that is iOS only...

soon it will get android support, and I hope maybe one day windows support...


----------



## aaronwt

Hasn't the Stream been out around a year now? At that rate Windows support might arrive in 2015.


----------



## ort

ilovedvrs said:


> iOS is a bunch of crap.
> 
> crazy a company made hardware that is iOS only...
> 
> soon it will get android support, and I hope maybe one day windows support...


I can see the conversation now.

Engineer: According to our numbers, 500,000 people have downloaded the TiVo app for iOS and it has a very high engagement rate. The average iOS user uses the app 2.5 times per week.

TiVo exec: Go on...

Engineer: And on Android the app has been downloaded 100,000 times and the average engagement rate is one use every two months.

Marketer: And according to market research, our customers favor iOS over Android at a rate of about 2:1. Plus, our web traffic indicates that 3 times as many people visit our home page from iOS devices.

Engineer: And our research also indicates that it will take half as long and cost half as much to develop our App for iOS.

TiVo Executive: Well, screw that. iOS is crap. Plus, millions of people in countries we don't sell our products in prefer Android to iOS. Let's put all our manpower being an Android app.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Hasn't the Stream been out around a year now? At that rate Windows support might arrive in 2015.


I'm hoping that whatever they're working on is more universal, rather then Android specific. Something that would allow them to quickly port Stream support to many platforms beyond iOS. Like that HTML5 based UI they showed at the cable show for Charter's cloud interface. If they can come up with something generic enough that it runs in a browser then they'll be able to port it to Android and Windows simultaneously.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> I can see the conversation now.
> 
> Engineer: According to our numbers, 500,000 people have downloaded the TiVo app for iOS and it has a very high engagement rate. The average iOS user uses the app 2.5 times per week.
> 
> TiVo exec: Go on...
> 
> Engineer: And on Android the app has been downloaded 100,000 times and the average engagement rate is one use every two months.
> 
> Marketer: And according to market research, our customers favor iOS over Android at a rate of about 2:1. Plus, our web traffic indicates that 3 times as many people visit our home page from iOS devices.
> 
> Engineer: And our research also indicates that it will take half as long and cost half as much to develop our App for iOS.
> 
> TiVo Executive: Well, screw that. iOS is crap. Plus, millions of people in countries we don't sell our products in prefer Android to iOS. Let's put all our manpower being an Android app.


 I think it's closer to this...

Engineer: According to our numbers, 500,000 people have downloaded the TiVo app for iOS and it has a very high engagement rate. The average iOS user uses the app 2.5 times per week.

TiVo exec: Go on...

Engineer: And on Android the app has been downloaded 100,000 times and the average engagement rate is one use every two months.

Marketer: And according to market research, our customers favor iOS over Android at a rate of about 2:1. Plus, our web traffic indicates that 3 times as many people visit our home page from iOS devices.

Engineer: And our research also indicates that it will take half as long and cost half as much to develop our App for iOS.

Intern: There's just one thing. Market trends show that Android sales pace is gaining ground on iOS almost every quarter. At this pace, Android will outsell iPhones in the U.S. (and globally) soon. The course for the iPad is likely to do the same. We should plan accordingly.

TiVo Executive: Be quiet!

Engineer: Hiss! Boo!

Marketer: I love my iPhone. How dare you question it's supremacy!

Intern: ...uh...sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this isn't happening is a poor long term strategy for TiVo. You do realize that it takes at least a year for us to advance on a different platform, and in the meantime we will not have a functional product for the most popular mobile platform in U.S.? We want to draw in customers, not alienate potential new customers.

TiVo Executive, Engineer and Marketer: (fingers in ears) WE CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA. IT'S DESIGNED FOR TABLETS; NOT PHONES. LA LA LA.

Intern: Oh brother.


----------



## ort

But actually, iOS is growing faster then Android in the united states. I've told you this a few times in this thread and you keep ignoring it. iOS sales on all of the major carriers are higher than android sales. They have been for about a year now and the trend is not moving androids way. It's inching up for iOS.

Internationally Android is doing well, but huge swaths of these devices don't even run google's software and aren't available in markets TiVo serves. They are of no interest to TiVo what-so-ever.


----------



## NotNowChief

mr_smits said:


> I think it's closer to this...
> 
> Engineer: According to our numbers, 500,000 people have downloaded the TiVo app for iOS and it has a very high engagement rate. The average iOS user uses the app 2.5 times per week.
> 
> TiVo exec: Go on...
> 
> Engineer: And on Android the app has been downloaded 100,000 times and the average engagement rate is one use every two months.
> 
> Marketer: And according to market research, our customers favor iOS over Android at a rate of about 2:1. Plus, our web traffic indicates that 3 times as many people visit our home page from iOS devices.
> 
> Engineer: And our research also indicates that it will take half as long and cost half as much to develop our App for iOS.
> 
> Intern: There's just one thing. Market trends show that Android sales pace is gaining ground on iOS almost every quarter. At this pace, Android will outsell iPhones in the U.S. (and globally) soon. The course for the iPad is likely to do the same. We should plan accordingly.
> 
> TiVo Executive: Be quiet!
> 
> Engineer: Hiss! Boo!
> 
> Marketer: I love my iPhone. How dare you question it's supremacy!
> 
> Intern: ...uh...sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this isn't happening is a poor long term strategy for TiVo. You do realize that it takes at least a year for us to advance on a different platform, and in the meantime we will not have a functional product for the most popular mobile platform in U.S.? We want to draw in customers, not alienate potential new customers.
> 
> TiVo Executive, Engineer and Marketer: (fingers in ears) WE CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA. IT'S DESIGNED FOR TABLETS; NOT PHONES. LA LA LA.
> 
> Intern: Oh brother.


You are awesome. That is all.


----------



## button1066

mr_smits said:


> I think it's closer to this...
> 
> Engineer: According to our numbers, 500,000 people have downloaded the TiVo app for iOS and it has a very high engagement rate. The average iOS user uses the app 2.5 times per week.
> 
> TiVo exec: Go on...
> 
> Engineer: And on Android the app has been downloaded 100,000 times and the average engagement rate is one use every two months.
> 
> Marketer: And according to market research, our customers favor iOS over Android at a rate of about 2:1. Plus, our web traffic indicates that 3 times as many people visit our home page from iOS devices.
> 
> Engineer: And our research also indicates that it will take half as long and cost half as much to develop our App for iOS.
> 
> Intern: There's just one thing. Market trends show that Android sales pace is gaining ground on iOS almost every quarter. At this pace, Android will outsell iPhones in the U.S. (and globally) soon. The course for the iPad is likely to do the same. We should plan accordingly.
> 
> TiVo Executive: Be quiet!
> 
> Engineer: Hiss! Boo!
> 
> Marketer: I love my iPhone. How dare you question it's supremacy!
> 
> Intern: ...uh...sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this isn't happening is a poor long term strategy for TiVo. You do realize that it takes at least a year for us to advance on a different platform, and in the meantime we will not have a functional product for the most popular mobile platform in U.S.? We want to draw in customers, not alienate potential new customers.
> 
> TiVo Executive, Engineer and Marketer: (fingers in ears) WE CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA. IT'S DESIGNED FOR TABLETS; NOT PHONES. LA LA LA.
> 
> Intern: Oh brother.


You missed off the part where porky the pig flies past the window and Jennifer Aniston asks you back to her place for 'coffee'. As fantasies go you aren't very imaginative.

In the meantime iphone sales break records again blah blah blah.


----------



## Dan203

Saw this posted in another thread, thought it might be pertinent...










3,000,000 iPhone 5s & 5c is a pretty significant number of iOS devices.


----------



## aaronwt

The thing I always thought was funny was with some of the Apple cases. Why is a case made with a hole in it just so the Apple logo can be seen. Everytime I see that I just start laughing. It makes no sense.


----------



## ort

Dan203 said:


> 3,000,000 iPhone 5s & 5c is a pretty significant number of iOS devices.


3 million is just the daily average of the 3 day launch window. They sold 9 million iPhones opening weekend.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> 3 million is just the daily average of the 3 day launch window. They sold 9 million iPhones opening weekend.


It's impressive, as always.

Not to take anything away from the sales, but just like OS version debate, this is a function of their model focusing on control: control the OS and updates; control the hardware; control the app store; control expectations by customers; and finally control the customization by users.

The reason a 3 day launch window matters is because Apple controls as much as it does. It releases a new phone product annually, and the adoring masses line up at that time to buy the product.


----------



## aaronwt

A coworker has the new iPhone. I can't believe how small the screen is.


----------



## ort

mr_smits said:


> It's impressive, as always.
> 
> Not to take anything away from the sales, but just like OS version debate, this is a function of their model focusing on control: control the OS and updates; control the hardware; control the app store; control expectations by customers; and finally control the customization by users.
> 
> The reason a 3 day launch window matters is because Apple controls as much as it does. It releases a new phone product annually, and the adoring masses line up at that time to buy the product.


Has it ever occurred to you that their tight levels of control are the exact reason so many people like the product? That for every bad thing caused by the control, it enables two good things?

Every other tech company is working like mad to change to a business model like apple, and regain control of the entire product.

I like how having fans is somehow a bad thing. Every other company on the planet wishes it had people lining up around the block for their products, but when fans of apple do it, they are the subject of scorn and mockery.


----------



## mr_smits

ort said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that their tight levels of control are the exact reason so many people like the product? That for every bad thing caused by the control, it enables two good things?
> 
> I like how having fans is somehow a bad thing. Every other company on the planet wishes it had people lining up around the block for their products, but when fans of apple do it, they are the subject of scorn and mockery.


I do believe that is why some people like it. The tight integration and control makes sure that things usually just work. My point is that if you set up your business to function in that particular way, then it's not surprising that there is a big 3 day launch window since that is when you release your phone product for the year.

I think much of the scorn and mockery comes with the blurred lines between Apple products as a fashion accessory (edit: and a status symbol). Check out the hilarious story on Ars about the type of person that waits in line release day for a gold iPhone. Pure comedy.


----------



## ScaryMike

mr_smits said:


> I think much of the scorn and mockery comes with the blurred lines between Apple products as a fashion accessory (edit: and a status symbol). Check out the hilarious story on Ars about the type of person that waits in line release day for a gold iPhone. Pure comedy.


Followed by Samsung releasing a gold version of their flagship a week later.

http://mashable.com/2013/09/25/samsung-gold-galaxy-s4/


----------



## mr_smits

ScaryMike said:


> Followed by Samsung releasing a gold version of their flagship a week later.
> 
> http://mashable.com/2013/09/25/samsung-gold-galaxy-s4/


The scorn and mockery for a bling type phone isn't platform dependent!


----------



## Dan203

But look at the increase. Over the last few years the demand for the new iPhone has increased, exponentially, every year.

I'm no Apple fanboy, but as a developer I can see the appeal of the platform. It's consistent, there are really only a few hardware variations to have to deal with, and it has a huge install base.


----------



## Grakthis

ort said:


> But actually, iOS is growing faster then Android in the united states. I've told you this a few times in this thread and you keep ignoring it. iOS sales on all of the major carriers are higher than android sales. They have been for about a year now and the trend is not moving androids way. It's inching up for iOS.
> 
> Internationally Android is doing well, but huge swaths of these devices don't even run google's software and aren't available in markets TiVo serves. They are of no interest to TiVo what-so-ever.


Post your data. This goes against everything I've ever read. I am pretty sure you're either making things up or you don't know how to read data.

I mean, I just went and googled it... I looked for US only data, and it says you're wrong.

And some gross percent of iPhone activations are people updating older iPhones. Apple cannibalizes itself whereas Android continues to grab the first-time smart phone buyers on a massive scale.

So, by all means, if you have data that says otherwise, post it.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> But look at the increase. Over the last few years the demand for the new iPhone has increased, exponentially, every year.


Ok, so, first of all, that's not what exponentially means... as written, that's not true. But I'm not going to nitpick that. Who wants to argue about that?

Demand for all smart phones has increased. Demands for cell phones has increased.

So, saying, "demand for the new iPhone has increased" is useless in this discussion. The response is "duh. So has android."

Finally, as I mentioned, the people waiting in line for the new iPhone on day 1 are people who own the old iPhone. They are not people buying their first smart phone or switching from android. Those people are not day 1 buyers.

For Apple's bottom line, who cares, right? Sales are sales! They like selling things to existing customers. For developers, that matters. It's not millions of new customers... it's the same customers just upgrading to the new hardware.

Everytime someone releases a study that looks at
1) Current sales
2) Current install base
3) Future trends

They all say "android." It's all android all day everywhere. There is no one projecting iOS as the dominant OS.

And that only makes sense... it's the same reason OSX couldn't win the desktop wars... when you have a once or twice a year release cycle, you can't keep up with the rapid fire world of a competitor that is firing out new hardware every month. You can't keep up with 100 different models when you're selling 2-3. You can't beat their discounted prices cause they are selling old hardware at a discount and you aren't. and you can't beat their new hardware specs because their hardware came out yesterday and yours is, on average, 3-6 months old. Sometimes more.

The advantage apple had was that, on release, they had a 2-3 year jump start in design and code... but that's gone. They lost it. Google is out ahead in features now. Google search and google now integration in to android absolutely demolishes anything Apple is doing right now. Apples iOS 7 design is 2 versions ago of android. There are no features iOS has over Android anymore... Android caught up and surpassed iOS on paper.

Now, I'll admit, I have a healthy disdain for apple because, as a company, their behavior is despicable. The are just an awful company that does awful things to the market and they do it at the expense of their biggest fans. But for years, even *I* had to admit that apple had a better product in the market. But that's just not true now, and the numbers show it.


----------



## Grakthis

The mocking of Apple fans isn't because they are Apple fans... it's because they are tech nubs.

I literally listened to a conversation when I took my daughter to the zoo the other day where two guys were talking about how they had to have the 5S because it's 64 bytes and twice the speed of a 32 byte phone. And they had to pay the early upgrade fee to get it.

Speed. Bytes.

This is a real conversation I really heard.

It's not "lol nerds." It's "lol morons."


----------



## Dan203

The reason Android is growing faster is NOT because it's better it's because it's free and open source. This is the same reason why developing for it is a nightmare. There are a million different hardware configurations running int and almost as many software variations to match.

Apple not only locks down the hardware and limits the diversification, but they pretty much insure that everyone is running the latest OS or at worst 1 version back. This may seem less consumer friendly, providing less choices, less customization and creating sort of a price fix, but it's much, much, more developer friendly.

Looking at this from a developer perspective you must see why TiVo chose iOS first. As to why it's taking so long to deploy for Android... that I have no idea.


----------



## button1066

Grakthis said:


> Finally, as I mentioned, the people waiting in line for the new iPhone on day 1 are people who own the old iPhone. They are not people buying their first smart phone or switching from android. Those people are not day 1 buyers.


http://bgr.com/2013/09/25/samsung-galaxy-trade-in-iphone-5s-gazelle/



Grakthis said:


> Now, I'll admit, I have a healthy disdain for apple because, as a company, their behavior is despicable. The are just an awful company that does awful things to the market


Translation: Apple consistently has the highest levels of customer satisfaction in the industry. Or any industry.



Grakthis said:


> Now, I'll admit, I have a healthy disdain for apple because...


The cool kids laughed at you in high school? You have a fruit allergy?


----------



## button1066

Grakthis said:


> I mean, I just went and googled it... I looked for US only data, and it says you're wrong.


No you didn't. Or maybe you did and didn't know how to interpret the information.

What ort says is the plain truth. I know this because I *did* Google what he said and confirmed it to be true.

Rhetorical question: do Android devices give all the people who buy them an inferiority complex or are inferior people driven to buy them? And who cares?


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> The reason Android is growing faster is NOT because it's better it's because it's free and open source. This is the same reason why developing for it is a nightmare. There are a million different hardware configurations running int and almost as many software variations to match.


Common complaint, but not true (or no longer true?). Here's a balanced article on a developer writing for both platrforms. He sees no platform a clear winner. He even talks about iOS fragmentation (his parents on iPad 1) and his solution for it.  http://blog.gqueues.com/2013/07/android-vs-ios-comparing-development.html


----------



## Dan203

And there is a link to article posted up thread where the developers of the BBC streaming app talk about how difficult it was to develop their Android version compared to the iOS version.


----------



## Austin Bike

Everyone keeps talking about phones, but the real market for stream is tablets, not phones.

And don't look at carrier activations, the primary access is going to be wifi. None of the 5 tablets (ios and android) in my house have cellular, all are wifi only.

Look first at tablets, phones are a secondary market. Some people will use phones, but the real use case is tablet.


----------



## aaronwt

Well if Stream for Android is delayed until Q1 2014, at least that will allow millions more Android tablets to get in peoples hands with Android 4.2 and higher. SInce the Amazon Kindle HDX tablets will be out for the holidays as well as the 2nd gen Nexus 7 which is already out. Between both of those that will add many millions more Android tablets out in the wild.


----------



## ort

Grakthis said:


> Post your data. This goes against everything I've ever read. I am pretty sure you're either making things up or you don't know how to read data.
> 
> I mean, I just went and googled it... I looked for US only data, and it says you're wrong.
> 
> And some gross percent of iPhone activations are people updating older iPhones. Apple cannibalizes itself whereas Android continues to grab the first-time smart phone buyers on a massive scale.
> 
> So, by all means, if you have data that says otherwise, post it.


I'm pretty sure I've already posted it in this thread. Go back and look at it. Or google the financial results of any of the carriers in the USA for the last year. iOS is outselling Android in the United States. This is a fact.

I'd go get new links but I'm pretty sure that arguing with someone who has such a childish disdain for apple would be a colossal waste of my time. It wouldn't matter what I said, or what I posted or what the facts are. You'll spin whatever information you receive until it matches up with whatever twisted version of reality you've crafted to make you feel better about your purchasing decisions.


----------



## davezatz

Austin Bike said:


> Everyone keeps talking about phones, but the real market for stream is tablets, not phones. Look first at tablets, phones are a secondary market. Some people will use phones, but the real use case is tablet.


Maybe that's your "real" use case... but it's not my primary usage scenario. Then again, my phone is a Galaxy Note 2 - with a much larger screen than an iPhone and I always have it with me. Home, work, gym, Starbucks, etc. (We've unloaded two iPad 3s and a Mini, only keeping the Kindle Fire HD around due to its low resale value.)


----------



## mr_smits

davezatz said:


> Maybe that's your "real" use case... but it's not my primary usage scenario. Then again, my phone is a Galaxy Note 2 - with a much larger screen than an iPhone and I always have it with me. Home, work, gym, Starbucks, etc. (We've unloaded two iPad 3s and a Mini, only keeping the Kindle Fire HD around due to its low resale value.)


Same here. I'm more likely to use a smartphone than a tablet for streaming. Watching anything on the iPad is truly the last resort in my home.


----------



## Dan203

And I'm betting phones become much more popular as a Stream target once outside the home streaming goes live.


----------



## Austin Bike

There is no argument that phones are a use case. My comment was about primary and secondary. I have both and 90% is tablet, 10% phone. 

Based on screen sizes I would bet this is the case with TiVo ( I know it is close to that with the streaming services). 

I use my phone to watch short shows from aus>dfw but for most of my viewing I will pull out the tablet. 

As phone screens get larger and tablets get smaller, this will change, but for now the tablet has a primary advantage over phones. That is not to say that people don't use phones, just that for the majority of users, it is a tablet. For now.


----------



## aaronwt

Some Tablets are already too small. They have some low end ones at 5" which is already phone size territory. Seven inches for tablets is about the smallest I would want for a tablet. While 5" is about the largest I would want for a phone.


----------



## Grakthis

ort said:


> I'm pretty sure I've already posted it in this thread. Go back and look at it. Or google the financial results of any of the carriers in the USA for the last year. iOS is outselling Android in the United States. This is a fact.
> 
> I'd go get new links but I'm pretty sure that arguing with someone who has such a childish disdain for apple would be a colossal waste of my time. It wouldn't matter what I said, or what I posted or what the facts are. You'll spin whatever information you receive until it matches up with whatever twisted version of reality you've crafted to make you feel better about your purchasing decisions.


I've googled it. I've seen the numbers. Until you provide me a link, you're wrong. It's that simple.

"Childish disdain?" Apple is an awful company. I am not sure how you can defend their business practices. They have outrageous profit margins, they lock people in to their eco system and block out competitors using a mixture of rules preventing anyone on their app store from competing with them and preventing third party apps from sideloading on to the OS. Their developer support is offensively bad and their platform/language is awful. They engage in price fixing. They side with their suppliers and providers over their users anytime the two come in to conflict (book publishers are the prime example). They are the opposite of what a technology company should be. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about their business side abandons them immediately. Leaving only people too weak or apathetic to switch left behind.

This is not "ugh, apple, grody." I don't do business with companies that want to **** me. Maybe you do. If that's your thing, by all means, take it wherever you like, but don't blame me for not being in to that.


----------



## Grakthis

Dan203 said:


> The reason Android is growing faster is NOT because it's better it's because it's free and open source. This is the same reason why developing for it is a nightmare. There are a million different hardware configurations running int and almost as many software variations to match.
> 
> Apple not only locks down the hardware and limits the diversification, but they pretty much insure that everyone is running the latest OS or at worst 1 version back. This may seem less consumer friendly, providing less choices, less customization and creating sort of a price fix, but it's much, much, more developer friendly.
> 
> Looking at this from a developer perspective you must see why TiVo chose iOS first. As to why it's taking so long to deploy for Android... that I have no idea.


I am a developer. I don't have to look at it form a developers perspective.

Developing for a single Android device is a million times easier than developing for a single iOS device.

Of course, the complexity is the variety of android devices.

There is universal disdain, behind the scenes, for iOS developers for the apple market, language and review process.


----------



## Grakthis

button1066 said:


> The cool kids laughed at you in high school? You have a fruit allergy?


Hahahahah yeah, that must be it. You got me.

2013, the year when someone suggested that Apple was the OS for the "cool kids." Haahhahahahahaha.... whew.

I bet you just discovered your first meme and posted it to your facebook. You're so hip. Have you seen the girl twerking and catching fire?!? OMG YOU HAVE TO SEE IT, IT IS SO FUNNY OMGLOLBBQWTF!


----------



## aaronwt

What the heck does OMGLOLBBQWTF mean?


----------



## Austin Bike

There seems to be a lot of emotion here and people making judgmental statements.

What people don't grasp is that companies make decisions based on the addressable market and where they think they can have the biggest impact. That is what tivo did. Their problem was not in doing apple first, it was in not following up with the android product. Since their original decision the market has shifted. That doesn't make their first decision wrong, but it accentuates the problem with missing the second window. Blockbuster video is a great example of this. Moved from VHS to DVD but the real market was shifting to streaming and they lost the opportunity.

As for those that are wedded to one platform and denigrate the other, there is room for all of them in the market, and competition is good. Android is what it is because it had to beat the incumbent. iOS will either get better or die. But the market will decide that. And not how people here are describing it.

These are platforms, not religions and we need to treat them that way. There is room for all of them. To say that one is right and the other is wrong shows either a lack of understanding or a lack of maturity. Or both.

As for apple making a lot of profit, um, that is why they are in business. We should celebrate profit. If tivo doesn't have enough of it, it will be gone.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> What the heck does OMGLOLBBQWTF mean?


Oh My God, Laugh Out Loud, Bar-B-Que, What The F*ck.

Not sure about the BBQ part, that was just my best guess.


----------



## aaronwt

That stuff always looks like gibberish to me.


----------



## ort

Grakthis said:


> I've googled it. I've seen the numbers. Until you provide me a link, you're wrong. It's that simple.
> 
> "Childish disdain?" Apple is an awful company. I am not sure how you can defend their business practices. They have outrageous profit margins, they lock people in to their eco system and block out competitors using a mixture of rules preventing anyone on their app store from competing with them and preventing third party apps from sideloading on to the OS. Their developer support is offensively bad and their platform/language is awful. They engage in price fixing. They side with their suppliers and providers over their users anytime the two come in to conflict (book publishers are the prime example). They are the opposite of what a technology company should be. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about their business side abandons them immediately. Leaving only people too weak or apathetic to switch left behind.
> 
> This is not "ugh, apple, grody." I don't do business with companies that want to **** me. Maybe you do. If that's your thing, by all means, take it wherever you like, but don't blame me for not being in to that.


My time would be better spent talking about this stuff with a stapler than trying to have a reasonable conversation with someone as entrenched in their bizzaro thinking as you are.

Have a nice day living in the weird fantasy world you've crafted in your mind. It sounds like a pretty interesting place.


----------



## ort

Back to the grown up conversation...

We only use stream with our phones. We recently moved and rather than put a TV in the kitchen, we just use our phones. Or rather, my wife does. She uses it quite a bit all over the house, always on her phone. I honestly never use TiVo stream at all.

I like to sit down and watch a show from start to finish and my wife is more of "always have some sort of thing on in the background" kind of person.


----------



## Dan203

Austin Bike said:


> What people don't grasp is that companies make decisions based on the addressable market and where they think they can have the biggest impact. That is what tivo did. Their problem was not in doing apple first, it was in not following up with the android product. Since their original decision the market has shifted. That doesn't make their first decision wrong, but it accentuates the problem with missing the second window


Exactly. When this thread started a year ago them choosing Apple first made perfect sense. Especially since the product had been in development for a year prior to that.

However at the time the assumption was that it was going to take them about 6 months or so to get Android support working. With this new news that Android support might be delayed to Q1 2014 my opinion has changed. They've taken way too long and now Android users have the right to be upset.


----------



## ilovedvrs

my free stream is waiting in the box.
getting a nexus 10 v2 hopefully this month.
would be nice if I could tivo on it....


----------



## aaronwt

ilovedvrs said:


> my free stream is waiting in the box.
> getting a nexus 10 v2 hopefully this month.
> would be nice if I could tivo on it....


Are the prices still supposed to be kind of high with the Nexus 10?
This gen I picked up the new Nexus 7 and plan to get the 8.9" FireHDX. But if the nexus 10 prices comes in low, then I might get that instead.


----------



## ort

Grakthis said:


> Post your data. This goes against everything I've ever read. I am pretty sure you're either making things up or you don't know how to read data.
> 
> I mean, I just went and googled it... I looked for US only data, and it says you're wrong.
> 
> And some gross percent of iPhone activations are people updating older iPhones. Apple cannibalizes itself whereas Android continues to grab the first-time smart phone buyers on a massive scale.
> 
> So, by all means, if you have data that says otherwise, post it.


http://allthingsd.com/20131017/verizon-could-have-sold-more-iphones-in-the-third-quarter/

I can't believe I'm bothering, but here's data from Verizon's financial report for the quarter. 51% of all smartphone activations were iPhones. Up 26% from the same quarter last year and they were supply constrained.

This isn't some goofball survey from some analytics firm no one has ever heard of. These are real numbers from the largest carrier on the planet.

The last quarter was the same. All of the big carriers in the states saw iPhone sales higher than Android. AT&T was like 70% iOS and 30% other.


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## aaronwt

ort said:


> http://allthingsd.com/20131017/verizon-could-have-sold-more-iphones-in-the-third-quarter/
> 
> I can't believe I'm bothering, but here's data from Verizon's financial report for the quarter. 51% of all smartphone activations were iPhones. Up 26% from the same quarter last year and they were supply constrained.
> 
> This isn't some goofball survey from some analytics firm no one has ever heard of. These are real numbers from the largest carrier on the planet.
> 
> The last quarter was the same. All of the big carriers in the states saw iPhone sales higher than Android. AT&T was like 70% iOS and 30% other.


Wasn't the large percenatge of apple phones because of the release of the new model? What is the percentage of Apple phones activated during a quarter when there isn't a new product.


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## NotVeryWitty

aaronwt said:


> Wasn't the large percenatge of apple phones because of the release of the new model?


Ummm, you do realize that they only released the new models 10 days before the end of the quarter, don't you?


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## aaronwt

NotVeryWitty said:


> Ummm, you do realize that they only released the new models 10 days before the end of the quarter, don't you?


Yes, and they set sales records. In just the first few days they sold nine million iPhones. Which means all those phones were getting activated at the end of the quarter. I would think way more than normal. But I did not see what their normal iPhone activations were for each quarter in the article. So maybe that is still a normal number of activations or it is much higher than normal? They did mention activations from a year ago, but that would have also been when a new model was released last year. It didn't show what the average activations are for a quarter.


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## ort

I don't have the links, but the previous quarter was roughly the same.

I think on Verizon it was 50% iPhone, 45% Android, 5% other.

And on AT&T it was 70% iPhone.

Sprint was less than 50% iPhone and T Mobile had their biggest sales quarter ever in when they launched the iPhone on their network.


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## ort

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/18/4532886/verizon-q2-2013-earnings-financials

HEre's Verizon. It looks like AT&T didn't announce the numbers last quarter. I think it was two quarters ago when they hit 70%. I'm not sure. Not motivated to spend more than 3 minutes looking. The iPhone has been doing a lot better in the states since they expanded to all of the carriers.

I think what's happening is that a lot of people who didn't want to switch to AT&T and bought bad early generation Android phones are switching over when their contracts are up.

http://bgr.com/2013/04/25/iphone-market-share-q1-2013-us-464944/

The bottom line is that both platforms are healthy and thriving and that's a good thing.


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## DeWitt

Another interesting blog post on this topic, focus is on start-ups, but much info carries over to established companies.

http://stevecheney.com/why-android-first-is-a-myth/


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## Austin Bike

Great article. Clearly sums up everything I have been saying to date. It does not let TiVo off the hook for taking so long on android support but clearly lays out why iOS was first. And probably always will be.


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## mr_smits

DeWitt said:


> Another interesting blog post on this topic, focus is on start-ups, but much info carries over to established companies.
> 
> http://stevecheney.com/why-android-first-is-a-myth/


Interesting article. However, he seems to have failed some basic research. His point about Pinterest not having Windows Phone Apps is incorrect, and his comment about Instagram is currently correct -- for the next few weeks. An app is expected soon.

That being said, I agree that for infant companies that are struggling to even survive past 12 months, picking a single OS (iOS or Android) and doing it amazingly is the goal. If it truly is cheaper for a new company to develop an iOS app first, then it makes sense to use resources wisely. Tivo has been around for 15 years and has hundreds of employees. Tivo doesn't get to use those excuses that baby companies can cling to.


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## morac

mr_smits said:


> Tivo has been around for 15 years and has hundreds of employees. Tivo doesn't get to use those excuses that baby companies can cling to.


TiVo didn't write the iOS app. They farmed it out to a small third party company called Duff Research. That company was acquired by Paypal this past March.

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y13/m03/i13/s06
http://www.duffresearch.com/services/


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## Balzer

A few weeks ago I came across a great deal for a Stream so I bought it, even though I don't have an iOS device. But I know SOMEDAY they will release Android support... right?

I have a crappy old Android (Samsung Charge)... and it's now eligible for an upgrade. I really really want the Galaxy S4, but am considering going to the dark side for the OOH streaming... 

Of course who really knows for sure how long before they release OOH for the Stream too..... 

So there is my conundrum... I actually have nothing against iPhones per se. I just like Droids. What to do?


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## bradleys

Keep your phone, get an iPad mini that just went on sale.

It will be available for the stand alone Stream in a couple of weeks.


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## Balzer

bradleys said:


> Keep your phone, get an iPad mini that just went on sale.
> 
> It will be available for the stand alone Stream in a couple of weeks.


Thanks I might look into that!

However, I am going to be upgrading to a new phone soon anyway. I was just wondering out loud if I should upgrade to the Galaxy S4 that I want, or get an iPhone 5 instead for the streaming... I am not much of an iPad or tablet person. Just another thing to carry around..


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## aaronwt

Balzer said:


> A few weeks ago I came across a great deal for a Stream so I bought it, even though I don't have an iOS device. But I know SOMEDAY they will release Android support... right?
> 
> I have a crappy old Android (Samsung Charge)... and it's now eligible for an upgrade. I really really want the Galaxy S4, but am considering going to the dark side for the OOH streaming...
> 
> Of course who really knows for sure how long before they release OOH for the Stream too.....
> 
> So there is my conundrum... I actually have nothing against iPhones per se. I just like Droids. What to do?


. 
This is what I almost did when the stream launched. Fortunately I didnt. Three Android tablets later and still no stream support. When the new Nexus 10 comes out I will have another but still no android support.


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## sdnative1

Until Tivo Stream works with Android, no deal! Perhaps Tivo didn't get the memo that only iPads outsell Android devices. But Android phones and Phablets, outsell iPhones worldwide.


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## Austin Bike

That fact has been flogged over and over here, but the reality is that the level of OS in ose devices is not always the most current. If you want to make the market share argument you need to look at OS levels, and many of the android products being sold today at the low end of the price bands are still on older versions of the OS. And, for that matter, you need to look at sales of iOS and android in the countries where TiVo is sold, not just the wolrdwide numbers as they do vary greatly by country.


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## mr_smits

Austin Bike said:


> That fact has been flogged over and over here, but the reality is that the level of OS in ose devices is not always the most current. If you want to make the market share argument you need to look at OS levels, and many of the android products being sold today at the low end of the price bands are still on older versions of the OS. And, for that matter, you need to look at sales of iOS and android in the countries where TiVo is sold, not just the wolrdwide numbers as they do vary greatly by country.


It's worth repeating since a major new Tivo feature was just enabled -- BUT just Apple devices. But yes. All the excuses (most of which are lame; some have a shred of legitimacy) can be found in this thread.


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## Dan203

The technical limitations are real and there are lots of articles around the web about difficulty streaming video to Android. Services like Netflix, HBO, etc... are different then the Stream because they are feeding video from a web based server where they can easily store multiple copies/streams of each program to appease different devices. The TiVo stream is a tiny little box with very limited hardware capabilities that is essentially doing live streaming. The options available there are more limited.

That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc...

Unless they can some how figure out how to support every device ever made, which is highly unlikely, people are going to complain.


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## Austin Bike

Yes, there is no way for them to make everyone happy. No matter what is released, they will get skewered.


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> The technical limitations are real and there are lots of articles around the web about difficulty streaming video to Android. Services like Netflix, HBO, etc... are different then the Stream because they are feeding video from a web based server where they can easily store multiple copies/streams of each program to appease different devices. The TiVo stream is a tiny little box with very limited hardware capabilities that is essentially doing live streaming. The options available there are more limited.
> 
> That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc...
> 
> Unless they can some how figure out how to support every device ever made, which is highly unlikely, people are going to complain.


That is still something. Hopefully I will be rid of all my Android devices running a version lower than 4.2 by the end of the year.


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## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc....


In general, people are reasonable and can understand that older devices aren't compatible with some software. People have been trained by this for years. Apple is a bit of an anomaly in this way since they usually keep 3 generations mostly up to date with the latest OS, but even then, no one expects iPhone 1 to support all the same apps and functions that a 4s or 5s does. That is unreasonable.

The issue with Android support is that it is completely absent. Zero support, and it's been delayed yet again. Smart money is that it will be delayed once more before Tivo supports Android Streaming. 4.2 has been out for more than a year, so where is Stream support for the devices with the most recent OS?

Even more important than Android support is browser support. Smartphone and tablet rates are nothing compared to desktop and laptop numbers. At least with browser support, I could buy a Roamio and put streaming to good use.


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## lew

Can we view the tivo content on a TV set connected to the iPad using the 30 pin digital AV Adapter and a HDMI cable?

I know applications have the ability to block such actions. I know if I use dropbox to transfer a properly encoded video to my iPad I can output to an attached TV set. Great feature if you want to watch something at a hotel room.

edited to add: I found the tivostream FAQ in a different subforum. The answer is no, unless the device jail broken.


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## Austin Bike

mr_smits said:


> In general, people are reasonable and can understand that older devices aren't compatible with some software.


Um, this is the internet. I'll take the under on that bet.



mr_smits said:


> Even more important than Android support is browser support. Smartphone and tablet rates are nothing compared to desktop and laptop numbers. At least with browser support, I could buy a Roamio and put streaming to good use.


Definitely the key. If you can stream to a browser, you could connect a system with a browser to a TV. Hello homemade mini.


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## Dan203

Apparently the only Desktop browser that supports HLS is Safari. However there are plug-ins that can enable HLS playback in other browsers. So a browser based system is not unreasonable. If they converted the whole UI of the app to HTML5 then it would run on pretty much anything.


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## chelman

A tech support person told me that the only issue holding Android support is the legal implication of security. I guess Apple was easier to deal with than Google.


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## Dan203

They use Encrypted HLS, even when downloading, so even if you can gain access to the files, which is easy to do on Android, you can't do anything with them. HLS is based on HTTPS which has never been cracked.

Plus they only allow downloads of files marked Copy Freely. If someone really wanted one of those they could just download via TiVoToGo and decrypt in a matter of seconds.


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## Austin Bike

chelman said:


> A tech support person told me that the only issue holding Android support is the legal implication of security. I guess Apple was easier to deal with than Google.


This sounds more reasonable. The conspiracy theories that tivo doesn't care about android or is purposely not addressing this are probably bogus. In reality, there is most likely something outside of their control that is delaying this.


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## Ziggy86

I just came across the TiVo steam and was very interested in it until I saw only Apple support. It seems like there will be android support just not sure when. My question is will it be a new product or the current Stream with an update that will work? Is there another product besides Slingbox that will do this for Android?


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## aaronwt

Ziggy86 said:


> I just came across the TiVo steam and was very interested in it until I saw only Apple support. It seems like there will be android support just not sure when. My question is will it be a new product or the current Stream with an update that will work? Is there another product besides Slingbox that will do this for Android?


It will still be the current Stream. But we've already been waiting over a year for Android support. Supposedly they pushed Android support back to early 2014 but I'm not holding my breath. I'll believe it when I see it since we've already been waiting a very long time for it.


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## series5orpremier

Yeah, I'm stuck either way. I have an unopened Stream but no devices to stream to. I'm deciding between the new Google Nexus 7 and the new Ipad Mini Retina. Now I'm hearing about severe manufacturing yield problems with the Ipad Mini that could push general availability out to Spring 2014. So it's either

Google Nexus 7 (hardware available now but stream capability not available until 2014)

OR

Ipad Mini Retina (Stream capability available now but hardware not available until Spring 2014)


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## Dan203

Availability of the retina Mini is going to be tight, but if you really want one you can probably order one at midnight the day they are released and guarantee you'll get one. I did that with the iPhone 5s and got one right away. Others waited until morning and had to wait 3+ weeks.


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## series5orpremier

Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.


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## ShayL

series5orpremier said:


> Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter?


Depends on if you want it on release day or not. I got an air on release day from the apple. I live really close so it not a big deal to go pick it up.


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## Dan203

series5orpremier said:


> Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.


For the iPhone 5s they did not offer an in store pickup option. You could either order it online and have it shipped, or take your chances and wait in line at the store.


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## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> They use Encrypted HLS, even when downloading, so even if you can gain access to the files, which is easy to do on Android, you can't do anything with them. HLS is based on HTTPS which has never been cracked.
> 
> Plus they only allow downloads of files marked Copy Freely. If someone really wanted one of those they could just download via TiVoToGo and decrypt in a matter of seconds.


A bit of a sidenote, but that is completely incorrect. First off, HTTPS only makes sense in the context of file transfer, once the data is handed off receiving client has the clear data and needs to be secured some other way. That is not actually relevant, since Encrypted HLS is not based off of HTTPS anyway.

The way HLS works is that is uses a playlist file (literally a .m3u8) which contains an ordered serious of segments. The client downloads the segments and plays them in ordered. For "live" streams the .m3u8 file contains a directive telling the client to redownload it every few seconds, and the broadcaster updated the file by tacking new segments onto the end of the file. All of the segments and the .m3u8 files generally live on an http server.

The way that encrypted HLS works is that a small portion of each file is encrypted using AES. The .m3u8 file is updated to contain a URL where the clients can download the decryption key for the files. That single URL might be stored on an https server, but it is often handled through a custom URI handler that is specific to the application and written native code. Once you have the key you can download all the segments over normal http, decrypt the small amount of encrypted blocks using the key, and watch your video.

The reason way it is done this way is that encryption/decryption is computationally expensive. For years protected video has only encrypted a small portion of the data in order to avoid incurring the cost of decrypting the whole thing at playback. That is less of a concern on high end smartphones that have hardware crypto units, but it is still a concern. Additionally, for large video providers using per session crypto would greatly lower throughput of their servers and CDNs, so they prefer to encrypt everything one time (at the same time they encode it), server the same data in a way that is completely amenable to http caching, and handle the security through key management rather than per session crypto.


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## ScaryMike

series5orpremier said:


> Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.


For the iPad air, I ordered it at midnight PST via the apple store app on my phone. It was ready for in store pickup by 8am according to my emails. I was in and out of the apple store in about 10 minutes (I went at noon to pick it up).

Short answer: if they offer in store, and you live near an apple store, then do it that way. Otherwise you'll have to wait a few days for your shipment to arrive.


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## Dan203

lgerbarg said:


> A bit of a sidenote, but that is completely incorrect. First off, HTTPS only makes sense in the context of file transfer, once the data is handed off receiving client has the clear data and needs to be secured some other way. That is not actually relevant, since Encrypted HLS is not based off of HTTPS anyway.
> 
> The way HLS works is that is uses a playlist file (literally a .m3u8) which contains an ordered serious of segments. The client downloads the segments and plays them in ordered. For "live" streams the .m3u8 file contains a directive telling the client to redownload it every few seconds, and the broadcaster updated the file by tacking new segments onto the end of the file. All of the segments and the .m3u8 files generally live on an http server.
> 
> The way that encrypted HLS works is that a small portion of each file is encrypted using AES. The .m3u8 file is updated to contain a URL where the clients can download the decryption key for the files. That single URL might be stored on an https server, but it is often handled through a custom URI handler that is specific to the application and written native code. Once you have the key you can download all the segments over normal http, decrypt the small amount of encrypted blocks using the key, and watch your video.
> 
> The reason way it is done this way is that encryption/decryption is computationally expensive. For years protected video has only encrypted a small portion of the data in order to avoid incurring the cost of decrypting the whole thing at playback. That is less of a concern on high end smartphones that have hardware crypto units, but it is still a concern. Additionally, for large video providers using per session crypto would greatly lower throughput of their servers and CDNs, so they prefer to encrypt everything one time (at the same time they encode it), server the same data in a way that is completely amenable to http caching, and handle the security through key management rather than per session crypto.


You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure.

But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?


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## morac

Dan203 said:


> You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure. But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?


The decryption key has to be stored somewhere on the device, otherwise playback wouldn't work without an Internet connection, which isn't the case.


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## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure.
> 
> But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?


https is sometimes used to distribute the keys, but not always. Often the mechanism is to have the the m3u8 include a key at an application specific URL like "myvideoapp://key" . The app then registers an internal URI handler for myvideoapp:, and hands back the appropriate key data when called. How the app gets the key to hand back is its own business.

The reasons to this are varied, but one of the most common ones is that your video licensing requires DRM and granularity beyond what you can through off the shelf http auth mechanisms. That also means that often the key management is significantly more complicated to port and validate between devices, even if they both have eHLS support.


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## Dan203

morac said:


> The decryption key has to be stored somewhere on the device, otherwise playback wouldn't work without an Internet connection, which isn't the case.


The Android OS must have some way of encrypting local data right? So they could encrypt the keys using that.


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## Ultiman

I would buy one of these in a second if they could stream to an AppleTV...unless I'm missing something this doesn't sound possible right now.


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## ScaryMike

Ultiman said:


> I would buy one of these in a second if they could stream to an AppleTV...unless I'm missing something this doesn't sound possible right now.


Not without a jailbreak (which is not possible on current ios versions yet)


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## Dan203

Ultiman said:


> I would buy one of these in a second if they could stream to an AppleTV...unless I'm missing something this doesn't sound possible right now.


You can AirPlay from an iOS device to an AppleTV if your iOS device is jail broke, but there is no way to stream directly to the AppleTV if that's what you're getting at.

If you want direct to TV streaming you're better off getting a Mini.


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## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> The Android OS must have some way of encrypting local data right? So they could encrypt the keys using that.


Encryption and key management are totally different things. Sure they can just encrypt the keys, but then they need to store whatever key they used to encrypt those somewhere accessible. Most content providers consider that an inadequate solution.

iOS provides a much richer set of both cryptographic and key management infrastructure than Android. In particular iOS has a whole bunch of infrastructure built around keys fused into the system SoC that cannot be read and are used directly by hardware crypto units. This is functionally comparable to what is often called a Secure Element, which is not guaranteed to present in Android phones.


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## Dan203

That's what I was asking. If there was some sort of hardware encryption. Sounds like there is but it's optional.

Although I still don't see where this is a big issue. For streaming they could easily feed the keys to the device via HTTPS so they are never stored on the local device. And downloading only works for "copy freely" shows anyway so they're not even required to protect those. The encryption they use for .tivo files on the PC is a total joke and can be broken using the software they supply with their own TiVo Desktop software. If someone really wanted to gain access to an unprotected show that would be a much easier method.


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## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> That's what I was asking. If there was some sort of hardware encryption. Sounds like there is but it's optional.


I think it would be more accurate to say that there is not, but a vendor can add it. I say that because there is no standard interface for it, even when it is present. It is worth noting that the traditional thing to do is to have the secured element in the SIM card, and nothing about JavaCard programs running on the SIM is really standardized. In fact that was one of the big hiccups with GoogleWallet, Google needed a secured element in order to do crypto that banks found acceptable, the US carriers have their own competing service (Isis), so they would not give google the required access they need (although it might be that many deployed cards might not actually have acceptable crypto, in all the Isis trials they have deployed new SIM cards to the beta users). Google countered in the Nexus 5 by using newer NFC chips that include a Secured Element that is controlled by the phone manufacturer, not the cellular carrier.



> Although I still don't see where this is a big issue. For streaming they could easily feed the keys to the device via HTTPS so they are never stored on the local device. And downloading only works for "copy freely" shows anyway so they're not even required to protect those. The encryption they use for .tivo files on the PC is a total joke and can be broken using the software they supply with their own TiVo Desktop software. If someone really wanted to gain access to an unprotected show that would be a much easier method.


Yeah, and electronic payments without a Secured Element are still way more secure than credit card numbers... The issue is not that it is more secure than what exists, it is that major revisions to extant systems do not happen often, and they are the natural place for companies to try to renegotiate their relationships and obligations.


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