# TiVo HD ANTENNA DISCUSSION...



## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

*The Topic: HD ANTENNAS from the connector to the metal in the sky!
*
There are volumes written about HD Antennas and my comments are made with a rather 'broad brush'. It's easy to quibble and take potshots, but constructive comments and questions help so much more!

The FIRST thing you should know is *"proper Antenna selection" is critical! *

Although most stations have switched to "DIGITAL", not all stations MOVED to *UHF *frequencies! Los Angeles is a perfect example. At least *4 major stations REMAIN on VHF!*

Most newer 'HD ANTENNAS" are designed for *UHF *~ and this is why almost all antenna 'elements' (rods) are quite 'short' in length. However *VHF *requires (almost demands) at lease _some_ longer elements to help capture lower VHF (Lo-Band VHF) frequencies!

The point is, KNOW what band(s) your LOCAL (and distant) stations are using! If all of your stations are on UHF you should do fine with a UHF only antenna. If not, buy the right antenna for the job!

I've included a photo of the antenna I use below. Please note the *longer 4 elements* in back. Not bad for $14.99 and tax... free shipping too. The seller claims _180 mile range_, but *that *depends on a LOT of things ~ I'm sure you know.

The seller also says this antenna operates _360 degrees_, but in reality this antenna IS VERY directional! Consider _anything_ you receive from the sides or from behind ~ a gift.

This antenna performs so well that I paused to buy two more! $32.83 with tax.

It was mounted (outdoors) as close to my TiVo and TV as possible. I cut a 10' length of "EMT" electrical conduit to 5' for a mast. No need to buy a official/expensive "TV mast". I used *QUALITY *RG6u coax cut to length with just a few feet of coax to spare... as in no extra spool of coax to add additional coax line loss. Because this antenna has so much gain I didn't hesitate to add a 2-way splitter.

Please know that splitter sends *50%* of my available SIGNAL in two directions! So if a station is received at +20 dBm... +10 dBm goes to the TiVo and +10 to the TV antenna input. Also the _general _rule is that the higher the frequencies the higher your signal loss through your coax _and_ splitters.

Next: Help your Antenna last a decade! (if Mother Nature allows).


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

A two-way splitter doesn't cost you 10 dB, rather 3 to 3.5 dB.

Why keep the source of that antenna deal secret?


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

eBay for the antenna... after my purchase today only 1 is left. If I gave the auction number folks checking would find not find the Auction... and the example I gave for the splitter was +20 dBm _in_, +10 dBm _out _at each port of the splitter. So the level in is just half at each port out.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

if you have a two way splitter with -10dB of insertion loss per port, you really need to throw that away, and spend way less than $10 for a proper splitter with a loss of -3 to -3.5 dB per leg.

And a reception range of 180 miles is absurd.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

SOGLAD said:


> I've included a photo of the antenna I use below. Please note the *longer 4 elements* in back. Not bad for $14.99 and tax... free shipping too. The seller claims _180 mile range_, but *that *depends on a LOT of things ~ I'm sure you know.


Here is a good site for all things HD Antennas Antennas Direct | TV Antennas Reinvented
The Antenna I have been using for over 10 years is the "Antennas Direct DB2 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna (Discontinued by Manufacturer)". It definitely does not do 180 miles, more like 1-30 miles and I paid about $60 at the time for an exterior antenna. You have a good point about VHS, as that explains why I'm not getting a couple of the locals. This site will tell you which stations you should get by zip, and whether they are UHF or VHF.


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

> The seller claims _180 mile range_, but *that *depends on a LOT of things ~ I'm sure you know.


yeah like it doesnt happen unless you're working with tropo

Hell the company that sells those claims 60 mile range. And I've ordered a ton of antennas from them (newark). Here is the datasheet
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2...55.342888631.1577412518-2003390500.1573337782


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## bruce316 (Nov 2, 2003)

pl1 said:


> Here is a good site for all things HD Antennas Antennas Direct | TV Antennas Reinvented
> The Antenna I have been using for over 10 years is the "Antennas Direct DB2 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna (Discontinued by Manufacturer)". It definitely does not do 180 miles, more like 1-30 miles and I paid about $60 at the time for an exterior antenna. You have a good point about VHS, as that explains why I'm not getting a couple of the locals. This site will tell you which stations you should get by zip, and whether they are UHF or VHF.
> 
> View attachment 45390


I agree, Antennas Direct is great. I've tried other antennas but my favorite is the Clearstream 4 from them. I mounted it in the attic and it has done a great job for several years now.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

SOGLAD said:


> eBay for the antenna... after my purchase today only 1 is left. If I gave the auction number folks checking would find not find the Auction... and the example I gave for the splitter was +20 dBm _in_, +10 dBm _out _at each port of the splitter. So the level in is just half at each port out.


10 db down is a factor 10 in power, not a factor of two. Look up the basic definition of deciBel ratios.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

SOGLAD said:


> *The Topic: HD ANTENNAS from the connector to the metal in the sky!
> *
> There are volumes written about HD Antennas and my comments are made with a rather 'broad brush'. It's easy to quibble and take potshots, but constructive comments and questions help so much more!


There is no such thing as an HD antenna. Antennas collect energy at specific frequencies -- vhf-lo, vhf-high, and uhf, for instance. What exactly is carried in that energy is not particularly important to the antenna.



SOGLAD said:


> The FIRST thing you should know is *"proper Antenna selection" is critical! *
> 
> Although most stations have switched to "DIGITAL", not all stations MOVED to *UHF *frequencies! Los Angeles is a perfect example. At least *4 major stations REMAIN on VHF!*
> 
> ...


There are actually three tv bands. 2-6 is VHF-low. Few stations are down there, but some are. In Boston, one of the PBS stations moved to that band with the repack. These frequencies are collected by the longest elements of an antenna. I don't think your antenna will pull in 2-6. VHF-high is channels 7-13. The entire FM spectrum lives between channels 6 and 7. In Boston one PBS station and one ABC affiliate live in this band. The Stellar Labs 30-2476 is the best VHF-high antenna available right now. I used to pull in real channel 11 on a DB8 which is a very good UHF antenna.



SOGLAD said:


> I've included a photo of the antenna I use below. Please note the *longer 4 elements* in back. Not bad for $14.99 and tax... free shipping too. The seller claims _180 mile range_, but *that *depends on a LOT of things ~ I'm sure you know.


Well, the curvature of the earth starts to get in the way of antenna signals at about 70 miles, so your antenna would have to be pretty high up to see something 180 miles away.



SOGLAD said:


> The seller also says this antenna operates _360 degrees_, but in reality this antenna IS VERY directional! Consider _anything_ you receive from the sides or from behind ~ a gift.
> 
> This antenna performs so well that I paused to buy two more! $32.83 with tax.
> 
> It was mounted (outdoors) as close to my TiVo and TV as possible. I cut a 10' length of "EMT" electrical conduit to 5' for a mast. No need to buy a official/expensive "TV mast". I used *QUALITY *RG6u coax cut to length with just a few feet of coax to spare... as in no extra spool of coax to add additional coax line loss. Because this antenna has so much gain I didn't hesitate to add a 2-way splitter.


I would be curious to know what your experience with VHF (especially low) is.


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## oscarfish (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm seeing reference to three different CleanStream 4 models (4, 4V and 4Max). On Amazon they range in price from $95 to $150. On the Antennas Direct web site they recommend the 4Max which is the $150 model. Does anyone happen to know the difference between those three models?


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

oscarfish said:


> I'm seeing reference to three different CleanStream 4 models (4, 4V and 4Max). On Amazon they range in price from $95 to $150. On the Antennas Direct web site they recommend the 4Max which is the $150 model. Does anyone happen to know the difference between those three models?


Clearstream 4-UHF only
4V-they have the rods for VHF but there is a combiner to combine VHF & UHF
4Max same as 4V but the combiner is built in


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## bruce316 (Nov 2, 2003)

oscarfish said:


> I'm seeing reference to three different CleanStream 4 models (4, 4V and 4Max). On Amazon they range in price from $95 to $150. On the Antennas Direct web site they recommend the 4Max which is the $150 model. Does anyone happen to know the difference between those three models?





unclehonkey said:


> Clearstream 4-UHF only
> 4V-they have the rods for VHF but there is a combiner to combine VHF & UHF
> 4Max same as 4V but the combiner is built in


I have the older style regular Clearstream 4 (the $95 one on Amazon) which is made for UHF but I have one VHF channel in our lineup, our local CBS station, which is a strong signal and I have no problem picking it up with this antenna. The Clearstream 4V might be better if you have more VHF channels and/or the VHF signals are not as strong.

I've read some reviews on the 4Max that said it does not perform as well as the original Clearstream 4 and 4V because the 4Max doesn't have the big mesh wire panels behind the elements anymore. I have not used one of the 4Max antennas myself so I don't know if that is true but it might be something to consider and research more before buying one of those.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

bruce316 said:


> I have the older style regular Clearstream 4 (the $95 one on Amazon) which is made for UHF but I have one VHF channel in our lineup, our local CBS station, which is a strong signal and I have no problem picking it up with this antenna. The Clearstream 4V might be better if you have more VHF channels and/or the VHF signals are not as strong.
> 
> I've read some reviews on the 4Max that said it does not perform as well as the original Clearstream 4 and 4V because the 4Max doesn't have the big mesh wire panels behind the elements anymore. I have not used one of the 4Max antennas myself so I don't know if that is true but it might be something to consider and research more before buying one of those.


What is the 'real' channel of that CBS station? UHF antennas can pick up high vhf stations and vhf-high antennas are readily available. I doubt you can pick up anything below channel 10 with a UHF antenna.


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## bruce316 (Nov 2, 2003)

wizwor said:


> What is the 'real' channel of that CBS station? UHF antennas can pick up high vhf stations and vhf-high antennas are readily available. I doubt you can pick up anything below channel 10 with a UHF antenna.


You are probably correct about that, the VHF station is labeled as 10.1 and the real channel is channel 10. I'm not sure how the antenna would perform with a lower VHF frequency. The other local channels I watch are all on the UHF band.


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## oscarfish (Mar 2, 2009)

bruce316 said:


> I've read some reviews on the 4Max that said it does not perform as well as the original Clearstream 4 and 4V because the 4Max doesn't have the big mesh wire panels behind the elements anymore.


Yikes, I stared at pictures of various Clearstream antennas, including the 4, 4V and 4Max, and I didn't even notice that the 4Max didn't have the mesh. Now that's all I can see.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

dlfl said:


> A two-way splitter doesn't cost you 10 dB, rather 3 to 3.5 dB.
> 
> Why keep the source of that antenna deal secret?


It's more like 3.5 to 4 dB loss. A "perfect" split of a signal would be 3dB loss, but no splitter can achieve that.


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

wizwor said:


> There is no such thing as an HD antenna. Antennas collect energy at specific frequencies -- vhf-lo, vhf-high, and uhf, for instance. What exactly is carried in that energy is not particularly important to the antenna.
> 
> There are actually three tv bands. 2-6 is VHF-low. Few stations are down there, but some are. In Boston, one of the PBS stations moved to that band with the repack. These frequencies are collected by the longest elements of an antenna. I don't think your antenna will pull in 2-6. VHF-high is channels 7-13. The entire FM spectrum lives between channels 6 and 7. In Boston one PBS station and one ABC affiliate live in this band. The Stellar Labs 30-2476 is the best VHF-high antenna available right now. I used to pull in real channel 11 on a DB8 which is a very good UHF antenna.
> And yes any decent splitter should be about 3.5 loss.
> ...


I was drawn to this thread by the assertion of an HD antenna, which as you point out does not exist except in the hype of advertising.
To get the best signal the two most important things aside from topography is height of antenna and correct wave length to get the signal. The first sometimes can overcome topography. Knowing what actual channels are being used in your area makes all the difference in getting the right antenna. On lower frequencies I even get airplane interference sometimes since the changeover to digital. The AVS discussion board has many posts about problems here since the changeover in getting a reliable OTA signal on several channels.
There is no end in what can lessen the digital signal including a nearby air conditioner compressor starting up, a metal ladder being put underneath where your antenna is, and on and on. Our friend starting having problems getting a channel and we narrowed it down to a flag pole next door being installed. We overcame that by slightly moving the direction of the antenna. Channels we could get before now need more pinpoint aiming to get making it much harder when the towers are not all from the same general location/direction. It seems like there is no forgiving and getting channels from more of the side of the antenna anymore unless you are much closer to the tower.
An example we always could get Sarasota channels but reliably no more since digital unless I turn the antenna more that way, which then loses many of the Tampa channels.

And yes any decent splitter should be about a 3.5 loss.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

tampa8 said:


> I was drawn to this thread by the assertion of an HD antenna


The first post came across as authoritative but was mostly incorrect. Just wanted to set the record straight. Receiving broadcast television isn't difficult, but it can seem like magic if one lacks a basic understanding of how things work. I can't count the number of people I have helped by recommending the right antenna and getting it pointed in the right direction.

Start Here


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

HD Antenna with VHF low and high, also with good UHF coverage.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

I was out of the antenna biz for years and when the 'hammer-down' date came for the tremendous "Move to HD" date finally arrived my brother wanted to cut the cable... I helped my brother install his "HD" antenna just before he cut services...

UHF reception was AWESOME, but lower channels were pixilating like mad and there were some (VHF-Lo) that we could not receive at all! Everything had new channel designations, I _thought _it was his (somewhat of a) 'valley' location and because he did not have a "clear shot" to Mount Wilson? I was very wrong thinking that ALL VHF channels were vacated (by FCC mandate) to free-up 'huge blocks' of VHF bandwidth? WRONG... apparently the networks in Los Angeles have lots of clout?

*In Los Angeles channels 2 / 4 / 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 and 13 REMAIN on VHF-Low band* and hence the need for _longer elements_ to help capture them.

Finally we bought a Weinguard true U/V antenna but ended up taking it down again to install a pre-amp... that did the trick!

I hope this helps you


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

pl1 said:


> Here is a good site for all things HD Antennas Antennas Direct | TV Antennas Reinvented
> The Antenna I have been using for over 10 years is the "Antennas Direct DB2 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna (Discontinued by Manufacturer)". It definitely does not do 180 miles, more like 1-30 miles and I paid about $60 at the time for an exterior antenna. You have a good point about VHS, as that explains why I'm not getting a couple of the locals. This site will tell you which stations you should get by zip, and whether they are UHF or VHF.
> 
> View attachment 45390


Yes indeed... your antenna is "cut" for *UHF *and *anything *you receive on VHF (again), is a gift!


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's more like 3.5 to 4 dB loss. A "perfect" split of a signal would be 3dB loss, but no splitter can achieve that.


Yep... as I said, I was using a rather 'broad brush".


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Narkul said:


> HD Antenna with VHF low and high, also with good UHF coverage.
> 
> View attachment 45418


YIKES! I can only wonder how many channels you are missing??


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

wizwor said:


> The first post came across as authoritative but was mostly incorrect. Just wanted to set the record straight. Receiving broadcast television isn't difficult, but it can seem like magic if one lacks a basic understanding of how things work. I can't count the number of people I have helped by recommending the right antenna and getting it pointed in the right direction.
> 
> Start Here


Checking your "Start Here" link, looks like the antenna shown is 'cut' for UHF?? Difficult to say for sure because much of the 'business end' is hidden by trees.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

tampa8 said:


> I was drawn to this thread by the assertion of an HD antenna, which as you point out does not exist except in the hype of advertising.
> To get the best signal the two most important things aside from topography is height of antenna and correct wave length to get the signal. The first sometimes can overcome topography. Knowing what actual channels are being used in your area makes all the difference in getting the right antenna. On lower frequencies I even get airplane interference sometimes since the changeover to digital. The AVS discussion board has many posts about problems here since the changeover in getting a reliable OTA signal on several channels.
> There is no end in what can lessen the digital signal including a nearby air conditioner compressor starting up, a metal ladder being put underneath where your antenna is, and on and on. Our friend starting having problems getting a channel and we narrowed it down to a flag pole next door being installed. We overcame that by slightly moving the direction of the antenna. Channels we could get before now need more pinpoint aiming to get making it much harder when the towers are not all from the same general location/direction. It seems like there is no forgiving and getting channels from more of the side of the antenna anymore unless you are much closer to the tower.
> An example we always could get Sarasota channels but reliably no more since digital unless I turn the antenna more that way, which then loses many of the Tampa channels.
> ...


*No end to what will act-up on VHF and UHF! About two years ago our power company arrived to scout the TV "noise spikes" in our neighborhood that were somewhat intermittent... but at LEAST once within 10 minutes??

I could leave this as a open question for the Group, but to save bandwidth: *It was a thermostat in a fish aquarium about a block away!


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

bruce316 said:


> I have the older style regular Clearstream 4 (the $95 one on Amazon) which is made for UHF but I have one VHF channel in our lineup, our local CBS station, which is a strong signal and I have no problem picking it up with this antenna. The Clearstream 4V might be better if you have more VHF channels and/or the VHF signals are not as strong.
> 
> I've read some reviews on the 4Max that said it does not perform as well as the original Clearstream 4 and 4V because the 4Max doesn't have the big mesh wire panels behind the elements anymore. I have not used one of the 4Max antennas myself so I don't know if that is true but it might be something to consider and research more before buying one of those.


_______________________

Years ago the* "CHANNEL MASTER 3619" *was the antenna of choice for MATV installs (Master Antenna TV) in Los Angeles (and in homes)! The "*3619*" was a U/V antenna and it's brother was the "*3618*", a VHF only antenna... I tried to find a photo of same but no luck.

The REASON we used the *3619 *was because the antenna was designed to _*minimize *_ghosting and it did a *FANTASTIC *job!

San Pedro Hill (California) provided a God-Awful "ghost" in L.A. basin that really spanked VHF-Low channels... too bad for us it's no longer made. A few of those installs are still in service and *that has to be at least 30 years of service "in salt air"! *How we achieved that 'long life' will be in another post to follow soon...

On rare occasions we would use the *3618 *(VHF), PLUS the UHF antenna *"pl1"* shows above for more gain, but that version had 4 "X" instead of two.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

SOGLAD said:


> Checking your "Start Here" link, looks like the antenna shown is 'cut' for UHF?? Difficult to say for sure because much of the 'business end' is hidden by trees.


The antenna at the top of the page is a Stellar Labs 30-2476 which is a VHF-high antenna. The building is my sister's camp in the middle of Maine. The channels we were able to pull in were all vhf-high. We installed the antenna so they could watch NFL games and other stuff. I have one of these in my attic pointing out my north peak at WMUR (9) and WENH (11). I have a DB8e pointed out the south peak at Boston for my UHF stations. I couple the whole thing with an RCA TVPRAMP1Z. In my basement, I split the signal using an EDA-2800 8x splitter/amp.


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

SOGLAD said:


> *In Los Angeles channels 2 / 4 / 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 and 13 REMAIN on VHF-Low band* and hence the need for _longer elements_ to help capture them.


*INCORRECT!
*
7, 9, 11 & 13 are on VHF HIGH
2, 4 and 5 are on UHF (2 is on 31, 4 is on 36 and 5 is on 35)

The stations that truly broadcast on VHF Low (which is 2-6) are KHIZ (PSIP 39 RF2), KWHY (22 RF4) which is mostly religious stations and KVCR (PSIP 24 RF5) which is a PBS station in San Bernardino. The only other full powered station on VHF High is KDOC 56 (RF12) (there are low powered stations on RF8 & 10)

RabbitEars.Info


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

unclehonkey said:


> *INCORRECT!
> *
> 7, 9, 11 & 13 are on VHF HIGH
> 2, 4 and 5 are on UHF (2 is on 31, 4 is on 36 and 5 is on 35)
> ...


WOW! Live and learn. I based my comments on the experience at my brothers and like so many things in LIFE, some of the things we learn are indeed _*"something else"! *_

I sincerely thank you for the corrections and for delivering it so kindly!

SOGLAD
(To learn the "better way")


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

The Channel Master ULTRAntenna 60 (CM-4221HD) is not cheap, but you get what you pay for and this one is sturdy. It covers VHF high and UHF low, and works well in the SF Bay Area out to almost 60 miles. Any more range would just pull in more duplicate stations from other markets.

I've found Yagis to be too pin-pointy, unable to pull in all stations from the major antenna clusters at my 325° and 25° without a rotator. A model that spans 180° like this one is much simpler; just mount and forget. I've placed one on my house and a couple more on friends' houses. Performance is limited only by the height needed to avoid the effects of wet trees blowing around, or nearby metal like those big hats they're putting on chimneys with installations of gas fireplace inserts.

Results here are good, with steady signals and better color than cable.


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

While a fair amount of analog stations that were on VHF Hi (7-13) stayed on those stations, most of the VHF Low stations (2-6) moved to UHF due to it being an electrostatic pit. There are some full powered stations on VHF Low in smaller markets (and that was mainly to save money). The biggest station on VHF Low is WPVI ABC 6 in Philly. They are still on RF6.

Now with the repack in full force (to cram everything between 2-36 from 2-51) there are stations that took money from the FCC to move from UHF to VHF Low. KVCR is one of those. A few PBS stations did that too..most notably Boston (WGBH), Providence (WSBE) and WUOC Cambridge, OH. Pittsburgh's PBS WQED took money to move from VHF Hi (RF13) to VHF Low (RF4).

The other thing that companies did was take money to go "off the air" and give up their frequency. But in alot of cases they did a channel share agreement with another station. As example (using Los Angeles) KCET (the former PBS now Education channel) and KLCS (the PBS station) share the same RF station (RF28). So when you scan you get 28-1 thru 28-3 (KCET) and 58-1 thru 58-3 (KLCS)


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The Channel Master ULTRAntenna 60 (CM-4221HD) is not cheap, but you get what you pay for and this one is sturdy. It covers VHF high and UHF low, and works well in the SF Bay Area out to almost 60 miles. Any more range would just pull in more duplicate stations from other markets.
> 
> I've found Yagis to be too pin-pointy, unable to pull in all stations from the major antenna clusters at my 325° and 25° without a rotator. A model that spans 180° like this one is much simpler; just mount and forget. I've placed one on my house and a couple more on friends' houses. Performance is limited only by the height needed to avoid the effects of wet trees blowing around, or nearby metal like those big hats they're putting on chimneys with installations of gas fireplace inserts.
> 
> Results here are good, with steady signals and better color than cable.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Yes, the *CM-4221HD *is a very decent antenna (and it's big brother, the *CM-4228HD *too)... Both are _very _good selections but as you said, "not cheap" at $89+! *C**M-4228HD* (starts at $180) offers a _*lot *_of wind resistance in high storms... all held up there with just 2 clamps! 

Here is another "4-Bay" contender at about $43 shipped. Ebay: 222981279214. I see they use just 1 clamp as does the Channel Master... If I purchased this antenna I would drill into the antenna (square) frame at the very bottom and add a large sheet metal screw and washer ~ right thru to the mast. Adds stability and a 'no spin' factor.

At $56.97 Home Depot offers the: *Digiwave 8 Bay Ultra Clear Digital Outdoor TV Antenna* (with harness) and matching transformers. If I lost this puppy in the wind I would not feel so bad!

*
*


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

SOGLAD said:


> If I lost this puppy in the wind I would not feel so bad!


LOL. You may be SOGLAD about the replacement cost, but I bet you would feel LESSGLAD about replacing the antenna in the conditions that blew it down. My attic installed antenna stands up to the strongest winds and all kinds of weather. It's nice to climb stairs instead of a ladder, too.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

SOGLAD said:


> Yes, the *CM-4221HD *is a very decent antenna (and it's big brother, the *CM-4228HD *too)... Both are _very _good selections but as you said, "not cheap" at $89+! *C**M-4228HD* (starts at $180) offers a _*lot *_of wind resistance in high storms... all held up there with just 2 clamps!
> 
> Here is another "4-Bay" contender at about $43 shipped. Ebay: 222981279214. I see they use just 1 clamp as does the Channel Master... If I purchased this antenna I would drill into the antenna (square) frame at the very bottom and add a large sheet metal screw and washer ~ right thru to the mast. Adds stability and a 'no spin' factor.
> 
> At $56.97 Home Depot offers the: *Digiwave 8 Bay Ultra Clear Digital Outdoor TV Antenna* (with harness) and matching transformers. If I lost this puppy in the wind I would not feel so bad!


Those 2 antennas look decent enough, but I wonder how the build quality is, and are the bow tie elements properly sized to get good reception. The Home Depot reviews have a few negatives on reception. I have an Antennas Direct 2V with a cheapo RCA preamp on a house in the NC mountains and pick up stations around 70+ miles away. The house is in a valley and theoretically shouldn't be picking up Charlotte and Winston-Salem. The antenna only works facing in the opposite direction of the towers, so I believe the signal is reflecting off the opposite mountain or possibly being reflected off some large power lines around 100 feet away in that same direction.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

*HELP YOUR ANTENNA LAST DECADES!*

I installed a UHF antenna similar to *"Pokemon_Dad (s)"* at my folks house more than 20 years ago and it's still performing _extremely _well! I must add that my folks live very near the ocean and salt air _LOVES _to attack antennas... This antenna _survives _and I expect it to be in service another 10 years or more!

Take a close look at _*Pokemon_Dad*_ (s) antenna above. Note the 4 major "black insulator/junctions" *where the 4 "X" elements meet the two buss bars. *After assembling to a mast I wrap the coax junction (at that main junction box) _*tightly* _with electrical tape and add a tywrap it to help keep the tape in place.

Finally I coat ALL of that tape (_right up to the junction box)_ with _common roofing tar _using a small spatula. It's important to* '*_pack' _a decent coat of tar to those *8 brads* that hold the elements in place in to the black insulators, _front and back!_ _When POSSIBLE,_ lather-up the "junction box" too where the buss bars and coax meet to help keep rain and moisture out. Clean-up with common gas and a rag. I use this method on each antenna I install...

The antenna came down just once to have the roof replaced. Two vent clams freed the mast and that antenna remained _fully_ _intact! _ Sure the elements were a little weathered but no big deal. The tar at the "X" junctions was still very worthy. The *tar *at the coax junction was 'hard' and_ it and the tywrap_ split open (readily) with a industrial razor blade. Inside was a *clean*_/*spiffy *_F-59 junction! I installed a new fresh run of coax ('black' to resist u/v sun rays) and a new connector. Next was fresh black tape, a tywrap and fresh tar. 2 new vent clamps and I was done.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Tar seems like a good idea as the most common failure of antennas seems to be the plastic insulators becoming old and brittle.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Narkul said:


> Those 2 antennas look decent enough, but I wonder how the build quality is, and are the bow tie elements properly sized to get good reception. The Home Depot reviews have a few negatives on reception. I have an Antennas Direct 2V with a cheapo RCA preamp on a house in the NC mountains and pick up stations around 70+ miles away. The house is in a valley and theoretically shouldn't be picking up Charlotte and Winston-Salem. The antenna only works facing in the opposite direction of the towers, so I believe the signal is reflecting off the opposite mountain or possibly being reflected off some large power lines around 100 feet away in that same direction.


Channel Master has been in business for decades and although they are not 'industrial grade' (as in military/federal/repeater-site grade), they remain industry leaders. Antennas take lots of care during installation and there are many ways to go wrong. Obstructions, poor mounting, cheap coax, budget connectors, splitters and much more! So no surprise that a few will complain, as in the Home Depot Antenna. Most times one can just see where other neighbors point their antennas... but _thankfully _TiVo includes a signal strength meter! 2 cell phones make antenna planting fairly easy.

We are very fortunate in Los Angeles to have *MOST *TV radiating from "Mount Wilson"... that's the good news. The bad news is San Pedro Hill and Signal Hill (Long Beach, Ca) bounce TV signals like a tennis racket... this was especially true with VHF-Lo band. This is where the old "Channel Master 3619" was the lifesaver! Very decent forward gain and *great *signal rejection from the sides... you just can't buy them anymore.

Problems occur when stations emanate from _multiple _sites, mountains or cities... and volumes of approaches and techniques are written. On occasions bounces/reflected signals mean reception where there 'should be' none... other times reflections are almost as strong as the original signal... not good.


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## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

I don't doubt the quality of Channelmasters as I've owned a few myself, but the no-name ebay yagis and omni bowties boasting 150-900 mile ranges.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Narkul said:


> Tar seems like a good idea as the most common failure of antennas seems to be the plastic insulators becoming old and brittle.


Yes indeed! Roofing tar is inexpensive AND really does a great job helping antennas last. The element junctions are very vulnerable and quite 'exposed' and for sure RTV or silicone just won't last without significant degradation.

I forgot to mention sometime large BIRDS will perch and stress those same element junctions... not good.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

Narkul said:


> I don't doubt the quality of Channelmasters as I've owned a few myself, but the no-name ebay yagis and omni bowties boasting 150-900 mile ranges.


Yes, I fully understand. However I did mention one recent install in Baja... just AT *120 miles* from Mount Wilson and with the ocean as a 'reflector' ~ that installation performs!

Here is the full title on eBay:
INSANE RANGE Outdoor HD TV Antenna - DEEP FRINGE CAPABLE! - 1080p Digital

Darn... I have a few photos of that install on one of my systems... just which one??


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

wizwor said:


> LOL. You may be SOGLAD about the replacement cost, but I bet you would feel LESSGLAD about replacing the antenna in the conditions that blew it down. My attic installed antenna stands up to the strongest winds and all kinds of weather. It's nice to climb stairs instead of a ladder, too.


Yea, ROGER THAT, but attics eat gain! Thankfully our 'gale winds' are about 50 MPH max... when I think of others back "EAST" ~ now _THOSE _are winds!!


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

SOGLAD said:


> Yea, ROGER THAT, but attics eat gain! Thankfully our 'gale winds' are about 50 MPH max... when I think of others back "EAST" ~ now _THOSE _are winds!!


Before I sided my house, I had two antenna installs. One was on a mast above the roof line and the other was in the attic. I could switch between them by flipping a switch in my basement. I installed a Y5-7-13 outside and a Y10-7-13 inside. Both VHF antennas pulled in my two VHF-high stations (WMUR on 9 and WENH on 11) perfectly. I swapped a DB8 and a 91XG between the roof and the attic. The DB8 was a little better inside and the 91XG was a little better above the roof. The DB8 inside and the 91XG above the roof were both very good. WLVI and WSBK occasionally dropped out and WMFP, WBPX, WUTF, and WBIN were sketchy. This was before I had a HDHomerun, so I do not have precise numbers, but given no perceptible degradation in reception, I decided an attic install had some attractive characteristics (durability and ease of access).

When I finally got around to siding my home, I had the contractor bring me a sheet of the insulation to measure the attenuation, and found none on my Frankentenna and nothing worth worrying about on the DB8e looking at Boston. At both peaks, a vent with metal screen was removed when the siding was removed which allowed me to move the antennas a little higher. IMHO an inside install is always worth a look.

As I type this, we are getting freezing rain and snow. I don't even want to think about getting on the roof to replace a pre-amp -- never mind an antenna. I have replaced the DB8 with a DB8e. The articulating panels help with the stations a little west of Boston. Since installing the DB8e, WLVI and WSBK are solid and the others occasionally drop off. I would be very concerned about the articulating panels moving out of position in high winds.


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## Adam C. (Jul 24, 2017)

I have been using this antenna for many years with excellent results. I get everything (VHF-Lo, VHF-Hi, and UHF) from about 10 miles out.

https://www.amazon.com/Antenna-Sate...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


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## lman (Nov 14, 2006)

I had problems picking up a low power major broadcasting station until I installed this antenna. 
https://www.amazon.com/Televes-DATB...&qid=1577856493&sprefix=televe,aps,266&sr=8-4


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## jacktechie (Feb 6, 2013)

PBS 22-1 (RF23) is 73 miles away from me. The old Channel Master 4228 eight bowtie antenna which I bought at Fry's for $50 many years ago receives this, but weather, atmosphere conditions breaks up the signal every now and then.

The channel repack will put it at RF5, which this antenna does not cover. I get 7-1 (RF7) about 40 miles away - they also transmit on RF35. I need to do something before I lose this station. There is a VHF/UHF boom antenna sitting on the roof with a few broken elements, but I do not think reception was as good as the 4228. But I may just swap them and see what happens or be crazy and build a yagi and combine the two.

722 (HD) which shows up only around San Francisco on Comcast is not available here. The station is on 200 which is 480i.

What would you do?
Jack


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Isn't San Francisco-based PBS enough to cover you for your PBS needs (or is there something unique for you with PBS 22-1)?


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## leiff (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm in SF Bay area North Bay Novato. Can someone recommend me a good roof antenna to reach mount sutro in San Francisco?


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## ke3ju (Jan 5, 2004)

The notion that the term "HD Antenna" has anything to do with HD is so laughable, it's not even funny. A TV antenna is a TV antenna, the receiver deciphers the signal, not the antenna.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## hc130radio (Sep 16, 2004)

Antenna Man is an informative YouTube channel on this topic. He’s also putting out info on ATSC 3.0 based on what he’s learned.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

hc130radio said:


> Antenna Man is an informative YouTube channel on this topic. He's also putting out info on ATSC 3.0 based on what he's learned.


Antenna Man


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

SOGLAD said:


> *No end to what will act-up on VHF and UHF! About two years ago our power company arrived to scout the TV "noise spikes" in our neighborhood that were somewhat intermittent... but at LEAST once within 10 minutes??
> 
> I could leave this as a open question for the Group, but to save bandwidth: *It was a thermostat in a fish aquarium about a block away!


I am also an AM radio enthusiast and have heard of fish tank thermostats among many things that interfere with AM. (Lightbulbs, CPAP machines and on and on) But I would not have guessed it would interfere with the digital TV of today.


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

lman said:


> I had problems picking up a low power major broadcasting station until I installed this antenna.
> https://www.amazon.com/Televes-DATBOSS-Antenna-Filter-149883/dp/B071ZBKBGC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=KIOAIZ8REXLM&keywords=televes+antenna&qid=1577856493&sprefix=televe,aps,266&sr=8-4


Sorry, but your antenna gave me sticker shock.

*TiVo Mates, here is a VERY decent antenna at $14.99 including shipping! 
eBay item number: 113976871436*
_








_
( _I am still VERY anxious to install it,_ but I've got the flu and I've been taking it real easy. It will be some time until I'll be on a roof again.)

I assembled it outside. I'm very happy to report* this antenna is well designed and quite sturdy!* The main boom is substantial and the plastic insulator/braces are quite generous too as the photo shows. 'End caps' were also provided for each element end!

Construction took a little longer because I used hot glue to fuse each cap in place. Honestly, with so _much '_metal', elements, clamps, brackets, baulin transformer and other assorted parts, I have no idea how they can BUILD the parts and INCLUDE shipping too?! It's simply amazing.

After assembly I brought it into the living room *where it is *_*still *_*propped up on a wooden crate *pointing at Mount Wilson! I ran a 20 ft length of coax across the floor to the table and my TiVo *(being SINGLE is awesome).

I recently purchased another Roamio and used it to test after bumping the hard drive up... so essentially, it was a virgin setup. *My first channel scan I had 174* *hits! Friends, t**rust me**, this is hardly a 'line of sight' install... In fact I have a minimum of three houses to 'look through' with each attenuating Mt. Wilson signals. But even with such handicaps, >BAZOOKA< this antenna PERFORMS!*

In fact this antenna is *so impressive* I ordered three more! A lodge bro. wants one, one for my shop and I'll salt the other for the future. Bonus ~ the Mfg. claims FM Music band too and why not? There is enough metal in the sky!

I will provide a few more photos of the actual install when it happens. Understandably many scoff at '180 mile' claims, but when I am able, a_ Los Angeles to San Diego_ channel scan is planned and I will post the results. They also claim "360 degrees" and 'amplified', but these words are misleading!

SURE we can spend *much more* on other antennas and I am not saying this antenna is "bullet proof", but I know of no other that beats the _quality _and price of these!

Hang on! Just found a very similar antenna that _includes_: *A super compact "LNA" amplifier to improve image resolution. Including power supply*. LNA=Low Noise Amplifier and chances are, your installation won'e even _need _one, but just in case you are at 'the painful threshold', this LNA just may do the trick?
eBay item number: 283680998553 $14.45 Including shipping from California.

Yep, I had to order 2 of these puppies too... Many sellers want that $14.45 and *more *for just the LNA!

Hurry, I KNOW they will sellout soon.

SOGLAD

*(never been married ~ I still have all my stuff.)


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

leiff said:


> I'm in SF Bay area North Bay Novato. Can someone recommend me a good roof antenna to reach mount sutro in San Francisco?


There are 2 sites that should interest you:
DTV Reception Maps
and
DTV Gov Maps

I find the second site more helpful... just enter your Zip Code then you decide? Can you let us know if the links helped?

SOGLAD


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

*@SOGLAD re: eBay item number: 113976871436*

Wow! It converts all your OTA stations to 1080P. Why not go for 4K? Surprised it doesn't also claim to improve your health and make you sleep better too! 

What size is that baby?

BTW, a simple explanation for the low price: slave labor.

I'm assuming Mt. Wilson and San Diego are at drastically different directions from you, right? It looks very directional, so how would you get fantastic reception from both locations, simultaneously?


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## SOGLAD (Aug 18, 2019)

dlfl said:


> *@SOGLAD re: eBay item number: 113976871436*
> 
> I'm assuming Mt. Wilson and San Diego are at drastically different directions from you, right? It looks very directional, so how would you get fantastic reception from both locations, simultaneously?


Right you are and I would not try to receive both areas. While San Diego does have outstanding local news coverage, most other broadcasts do not interest me (unless it's about my Donald). I mention San Diego because it is about 110 miles away and it's *not *quite a 'clear shot' to ocean water from here. The ocean _is _the path that is most dominant and direct, but... this does not mean there will be a 'abundance' of signals _over _that path. BUT if signals are going to survive, open water and a clear path from the transmitter towers to that water should provide a very good medium.

Now if I had _more elevation_ and truly _WANTED _both, I would consider a 'motor home' 360 degree 'oval' antenna. One similar to the HD-8000 (eBay item number: 163969806657). No rotors, no muss or fuss.. just a *decent, *highly Pre-AMPLIFIED HD 360 degree antenna with the _minimum _of coax! Heck with the right location on San Pedro Hill, that antenna should pull in Santa Barbara too! My folks have that ocean view and IF they wanted S.D. channels, I am fairly confident a focused antenna install will do that job.

I briefly mention again a recent Rosirita Beach (Mexico) antenna install that _*consistently *_pulls in Los Angeles Mount Wilson *with stability and signal to spare! * And most of that path is over water. Google calls it *192.4 miles*. This is *not *a 'line of sight' install and it does heavily depend on water reflections and _slight _'over the horizon' bounce for reception. I haven't seen it function in heavy rain or dense fog and they just may be show stoppers.

SOGLAD

edit: Sorry, you asked about the antenna length> 59.6 inches long.


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## jacktechie (Feb 6, 2013)

jacktechie said:


> PBS 22-1 (RF23) is 73 miles away from me. The old Channel Master 4228 eight bowtie antenna which I bought at Fry's for $50 many years ago receives this, but weather, atmosphere conditions breaks up the signal every now and then.
> 
> The channel repack will put it at RF5, which this antenna does not cover. I get 7-1 (RF7) about 40 miles away - they also transmit on RF35. I need to do something before I lose this station. There is a VHF/UHF boom antenna sitting on the roof with a few broken elements, but I do not think reception was as good as the 4228. But I may just swap them and see what happens or be crazy and build a yagi and combine the two.
> 
> ...


I did not lose 22-1 after it repacked to RF5 although signal strength dropped from about 89 to 65-69. Will monitor for dropouts due to atmospheric conditions.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

lman said:


> I had problems picking up a low power major broadcasting station until I installed this antenna.
> https://www.amazon.com/Televes-DATBOSS-Antenna-Filter-149883/dp/B071ZBKBGC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=KIOAIZ8REXLM&keywords=televes+antenna&qid=1577856493&sprefix=televe,aps,266&sr=8-4


Dumb question, which end faces the towers?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jacktechie said:


> I did not lose 22-1 after it repacked to RF5 although signal strength dropped from about 89 to 65-69. Will monitor for dropouts due to atmospheric conditions.


I lost 22-1. I read somewhere their transmitter moved from Sonoma Mountain to Sutro Tower as part of the repack. That's closer to me, but they also moved to 79 MHz and my antenna doesn't cover that VHF-Lo range. Apparently they did that because VHF-Lo frequencies are cheaper. I'm not going to bother finding an antenna that covers those frequencies. VHF-Hi and UHF should be all you need these days. If I do upgrade mine, it will still cover only VHF-Hi and UHF.


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## Triride44 (Jan 11, 2020)

schatham said:


> Dumb question, which end faces the towers?


The first (top) picture is from the Front to the back, and the second is back to front.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

Triride44 said:


> The first picture is the from the Front to the back, and the second is back to front.


Thanks


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## jacktechie (Feb 6, 2013)

Not sure what happened to KRCB's transmitter. A Onepass recorded program Monday, June 8 at 7:30am plays. I was flipping through stations and 22-1, 2, 3 show signal strength bouncing between 0 and 30. My bowtie UHF/hi-VHF antenna should not have picked up RF5, but it has worked since repack until midday. My conclusion is it can't be my antenna. Can anyone verify if 22-x is still up and working?


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jacktechie said:


> Not sure what happened to KRCB's transmitter. A Onepass recorded program Monday, June 8 at 7:30am plays. I was flipping through stations and 22-1, 2, 3 show signal strength bouncing between 0 and 30. My bowtie UHF/hi-VHF antenna should not have picked up RF5, but it has worked since repack until midday. My conclusion is it can't be my antenna. Can anyone verify if 22-x is still up and working?


I haven't been able to receive that here in the South Bay since the repack. Then again, my antenna doesn't do VHF-Lo either.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

jacktechie said:


> Not sure what happened to KRCB's transmitter. A Onepass recorded program Monday, June 8 at 7:30am plays. I was flipping through stations and 22-1, 2, 3 show signal strength bouncing between 0 and 30. My bowtie UHF/hi-VHF antenna should not have picked up RF5, but it has worked since repack until midday. My conclusion is it can't be my antenna. Can anyone verify if 22-x is still up and working?


Usually bouncing signal strength means a reflection problem (multipath), has anything changed in your neighborhood recently. Trees leafing out ? Construction cranes ? Tall building construction finishing up ?


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## jacktechie (Feb 6, 2013)

tenthplanet said:


> Usually bouncing signal strength means a reflection problem (multipath), has anything changed in your neighborhood recently. Trees leafing out ? Construction cranes ? Tall building construction finishing up ?


Sometime between noon and 8pm, the signal came back. Whatever the cause, planned or unplanned, it is in the past.


Pokemon_Dad said:


> I haven't been able to receive that here in the South Bay since the repack. Then again, my antenna doesn't do VHF-Lo either.


Mine is an older 8 bay and it isn't suppose to do VHF-Lo, but surprised it does. Tivo HD RF23, 73 mile, signal strength 89 vs. RF5, ~43 mile, ss 69 so I'm happy.

So why the change from UHF to VHF. The answer will astound you. They spent $12M of that to buy KCSM, now KPJK.
California station reaps $72M in spectrum auction proceeds
KRCB reaps $72 million windfall


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## Pokemon_Dad (Jan 19, 2008)

jacktechie said:


> Sometime between noon and 8pm, the signal came back. Whatever the cause, planned or unplanned, it is in the past.
> 
> Mine is an older 8 bay and it isn't suppose to do VHF-Lo, but surprised it does. Tivo HD RF23, 73 mile, signal strength 89 vs. RF5, ~43 mile, ss 69 so I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Glad it came back there, for whatever reason. I don't know where to get more information on something like this, other than contacting the station engineer and hoping for a friendly response. (About a month before the repack, KGO Channel 7 completely disappeared for me, then returned 24 hours later. It's my strongest station, so I suspect a problem at the transmitter, but I've never found any public statement about that.)

I'm planning to put up a larger antenna, and will report on my results in the Bay Area repack thread, but it will not include VHF-Lo elements so I'm not optimistic. Losing KRCB is not a biggie for me though, as it is not meant to serve the South Bay, and now KPJK duplicates most of the same programming as KRCB and is very similar to what was on KCSM.

Good to know some of the KRCB money went towards reviving KCSM as KPJK, thanks for pointing that out. I'm still a supporter of KCSM-FM, and should look into supporting KPJK.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Anyone on this forum using an antenna in the Burlington, VT area? If so, I am curious which one and which channels you are able to pick up. Thanks ahead of time.


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