# Sticky  ** HD TiVo and HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ **



## feldon23

*UPDATED: December 19, 2011*









*DirecTV HDTV HR10-250 TiVo* -- April 21st, 2004

 Back of HDTiVo

In April 2004, DirecTV launched the *DirecTV HR10-250 DirecTV with TiVo* with 250GB capacity offering ~30 hours of high definition, ~200 hours of standard definition recording, or any combination of the two. *Actual recording time will vary depending on the type of programming being recorded. [Press Release...]
[ Specifications Front ] [ Specifications Back ]

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos contain 2 *DirecTV SD/HD and Over-the-Air tuners* (a total of 3 coax inputs) which can receive/record standard definition and MPEG-2 high definition programming from DirecTV as well as the unique capability to record local digital/HDTV broadcasts brought in by an antenna.

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos were introduced with an MSRP of $999, and have been out-of-production for many years now as DirecTV switched to a leasing model in 2006. Sometimes these units can be found on eBay.

*What is the future of the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo?*

The original DirecTV *HR10-250* TiVo must now be viewed as a legacy device as it can only record and view the small amount of remaining _MPEG-2_ DirecTV programming. DirecTV now has over 100 national channels, plus the top ~50 local TV markets all presented in _MPEG-4_ HDTV which cannot be recorded on an HR10-250.

After the *2003* acquisition of DirecTV by Rupert Murdoch, DirecTV announced the dissolution of their partnership with TiVo and introduced their own competing DVRs developed by Murdoch's partner company NDS. The NDS-designed standard definition DirecTV DVR was released in October *2005* and the High Definition NDS DVR followed in *2006*. In light of this news, TiVo invested heavily in *CableCard*-powered TiVos that work with all digital cable systems, as well as putting TiVo software on existing Comcast hardware. During this interim of five years, the DirecTV HR HDTV DVR models (which are not TiVo-powered) caught up with the functionality (if not the ease of user interface) of the TiVo platform.

In *2009*, DirecTV renewed their partnership with TiVo and now, in *2011*, have introduced a new combined TiVo® HD DirecTV product called the *THR22-100*. This new TiVo, which is running on the HR22-100 NDS hardware platform, became available to customers on *December 8, 2011* in selected markets for $199 with 2 year contract, and is expected to go nationwide in 2012. The new unit lacks many of the new features introduced to the TiVo platform over the last 5 years including Home Media Sharing, Youtube, Netflix, Multi Room Viewing, etc.

*What ports and cables does the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo include?*

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo ports include two USB2.0 ports (reserved for future use), 1 Component (RGB) video output, 1 HDMI output, 1 S-Video output, 1 Composite video output, 1 Stereo audio output, 1 SPD/IF Optical output, and 1 Modem jack.

The *High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI)* connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is the only digital video output on the HD TiVo. High Definition component video is also offered. An HDMI cable is included, as is a DVI-to-HDMI adapter.

*NOTE*: HDTVs with HDMI or DVI ports that lack HDCP chips may blank out the picture through the HDMI port during certain PPV and sports programming at the broadcaster's discretion.

*What output formats/resizing does this DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo support?*

The DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo always displays programming at the selected output resolution. If the TiVo is set to output 1080i, then 720p shows (from ABC or ESPN) will be converted to 1080i prior to display. If you wish, and your HDTV does a better job natively displaying 720p, then you may change the output resolution to 720p when watching 720p material (there is, unfortunately, no on-screen indication of the source material's format).

*Formats*: You can change the output format the TiVo is using through a Setup menu or by simply pressing the UP arrow on the remote while watching a program. The output resolutions the TiVo will toggle between are 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and all programs will then be converted to that format. There is no "native" mode where the output format is automatically switched to match the source material.

*S-Video/Composite:* DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos can only display a standard definition picture (over S-Video or Composite video outputs) if the TiVo is set to 480i display. DirecTV HD TiVos WILL NOT output a composite (S-Video/yellow RCA) signal simultaneously with an HD signal (Downconversion).

*Stretching:* DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos have Stretch Modes allowing you to display 16:9 or 4:3 material stretched to fit 16:9 Widescreen HDTVs or 4:3 digital TVs. There are no zoom/crop/justify (aka "coke bottle") modes.

*Will the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo support Home Media Option and Networking?*

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos run a variant of the same 3.1 software seen on the 2004 DirecTV standard definition TiVos. *Neither version 4.0 of the software nor Home Media Option networked media features were ever released.*

*What hardware do I need from DirecTV?*

Most DirecTV customers have a round dish with a single dual LNBF 'head'. This enables them to receive programming from DirecTV's main satellite positioned at the 101 degrees.

HDTV, Spanish, and Chinese programming all require an elliptical (oval) dish with at least 3 LNBF 'heads'. This adds the ability to receive programming from DirecTV's three MPEG-2 satellites at 101, 110, and 119 degrees. Older DirecTV elliptical dishes come with 2 LNBFs 'heads' (101 and 119) and a space in between. A 'Sat C Kit' will give your older dish the ability to see 110.

Phase III DirecTV elliptical dishes have the circuitry necessary to receive all 3 satellites sealed inside the 'arm' of the dish. DirecTV enthusiasts have also been known to use 3 separate round dishes, each pointed at 101, 110, and 119 degree positions!

You can also use the new 5LNB Ka/Ku 'superdish' from DirecTV with the HR10-250 HD TiVo, but you will not be able to record any high definition channels which are in MPEG-4 format (local-into-local channels and nearly the entire lineup of HDTV programming on DirecTV).

DirecTV HDTV programming at 110:
*ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, Discovery HD, HDNet Movies, Showtime HD*

DirecTV HDTV programming at 119:
*HDNet, HBO HD, HD Pay-per-view*










All elliptical dishes either have a 4x4 multiswitch bolted onto the back of the dish (101/119), or integrated into the arm of the dish (Phase III).

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.

To take full advantage of a DirecTV with TiVo or DirecTV HD TiVo receiver/recorder, you must have TWO wires from the dish/multiswitch connected to them. Ordinary DirecTV receivers each require ONE wire from the dish/multiswitch.

*All rooms wired for HD* (future proof)
Using a cascading 4x8 multiswitch to provide 8 outputs which can see all 3 satellites (101/110/119).

*What DirecTV HDTV packages are available?*










DirecTV now offers well over 100 national HDTV channels, as well as HDTV local-into-local channels, all of which require either a *DirecTV HR20, 21, 22* or other NDS-designed DVR (further discussion of these models can be found at DBSTalk.com) or the newly introduced *DirecTV THR22 TiVo* that supports the new MPEG-4 HDTV signals available from DirecTV.

The HR10-250 can only record MPEG-2 HDTV channels, including HBO HD, Showtime HD, ESPN HD, Discovery HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, and NFL Sunday Ticket Superfan HDTV, NBA HDTV, Pay Per View, New York and Los Angeles versions of ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS, and finally Spice TV. _These channels may transition to MPEG-4 at any time as bandwidth is needed on DirecTV satellites._


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## feldon23

_UPDATED: January 3, 2012_

*What is HDTV?*

High Definition TeleVision (HDTV) is the first major improvement to broadcast television since the introduction of color in the 1950's. HDTV is part of a larger broadcast standard referred to as ATSC (the American Television Systems Committee) which contains 18 different formats/qualities/resolutions.

*What hardware do I need to watch Local channels in High Definition?*

ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, WB, UPN, and Fox stations in all markets are now broadcasting digitally.

In order to receive digital local broadcasts in your home, you will need an antenna or receive them from your cable or satellite company. Antennas which can pickup HDTV signals range from rabbit ears to medium or large YAGI-type (arrow-shaped) antennas to medium or large grille-type antennas with bowtie shapes attached to them. If you are within 30 miles of a full-power digital transmitter, rabbit ears or a small grille-type antenna should provide acceptable reception.

A very useful website for determining what antenna you will need is AntennaWeb.org. By entering your ZIP code, you will find out which stations are with ~100 miles of you, sorted by proximity and labeled with the strength of antenna you will need.

It is beyond the scope of this document to provide a complete list of recommended antennas, but you should consider:

_Zenith_ Silver Sensor (rabbit ears with surprising reception ability)
_Radio Shack_ grille/bowtie-type (aka the Objet d'Art)
_Square Shooter_ wafer-style pole-mounted antennas
_Channel Master_ YAGIs available from 80 to 150 inches and beyond
_Channel Master_ grille-type antennas such as the 4228
_Televes_ antennas (various types)
_Winegard_ antennas (various types)
and seriously avoid:

_Terk_ antennas especially their dish clip-on type and Terk TV55 HDTV antenna.
_Jensen_ antennas (various types)
These antennas have yielded worse performance than a $10 pair of rabbit ears.

*What kind of HDTV reception can I get where I live?*

Please visit the AVS HDTV Local Reception Forum.

*What are the different HDTV formats? What's the difference between 720p and 1080i?*

The 4 most commonly encountered digital TV formats in the US are *480i*, which approximates standard (NTSC) TV, *480p*, which is a DVD-like format with the same resolution (720x480) and aspect (16:9) as DVD, *720p* (used by ABC, Fox, and ESPN), and *1080i* (used by everyone else). More details:

_1080i_ aka 'High Definition'
1920 x 1080 resolution (16:9 ratio)
~4 times NTSC quality
30 frames per second (interlaced)
Used by NBC, CBS, PBS, CW, HBO, Showtime, Starz, HDNet, Discovery, etc.
_720p_ aka 'High Definition'
1280 x 720 progressive (16:9 ratio)
~4 times NTSC quality
60 frames per second (progressive)
Used by ABC, Disney, ESPN, and Fox
_480p_ aka 'Enhanced Definition' or EDTV
704 x 480 progressive (16:9 ratio)
DVD resolution
~2 times NTSC quality
60 frames per second (progressive)
_480i_ aka 'Standard Definition' or SDTV
720 x 480 interlaced (4:3 ratio)
NTSC quality
30 frames per second (interlaced)
NTSC (standard definition)

ATSC streams (which may include one or more subchannels in 1080i, 720p, 480p, or 480i qualities) use a total of 6MHz or 26.2Mbps of bandwidth. An HDTV resolution picture (either 1080i or 720p) require 6 times the bandwidth of a Standard Definition channel. Many content providers such as DirecTV and local affiliates of broadcast networks re-compress HDTV signals, sometimes to conserve bandwidth, sometimes to make room for a Standard Definition subchannel. This has created a lot of controversy which we will not go into here.

*What sound quality improvement does digital TV bring?*

ATSC/HDTV also includes significant improvements in sound transmission standards. 1080i, 720p, and 480p all specify Dolby Digital (AC-3) as the official standard for broadcast audio. The Dolby Digital soundtrack included in each broadcast may contain anywhere from 1 to 6 channels of surround sound digital audio which can be heard by connecting an Optical cable to a home theater system. Stereo downconversion is available on all HDTV-receiving equipment as well, through the standard RCA connections.

*What HDTV programming is available?*

Virtually all modern programming in America is now available in High Definition, from scripted dramas and comedies, to movies, to sports, soap operas and other daytime programming, to local news broadcasts, and other programming. For the most part, all nationally broadcast programming is now presented in High Definition, and even a growing amount of local programming as well.

HBO, Showtime, ESPN, and Discovery were some of the first national variety HDTV channels, but now a huge selection of HD channels exist including staples such as TNT, USA, TBS, etc.

_HDNet_ was the first full-time HD channel, offering World News (the only regular international news broadcast available in the USA in HDTV), various syndicated HDTV shows, movies, and sports (HDNet provided NBC with HD coverage of the 2002 Olympics) from Fox SportsNet, The NHL on HDNet, CBC Hockey Night In Canada, and has also co-produced basketball with NBC.

More details about HDTV programming can be found at the TiVo Community's sister site, the AVS HDTV Forum.

*Does the Broadcast Flag mean I will see a poor/downrezzed picture on my older HDTV?*

The broadcast flag could, in theory, allow a content provider to tell the HDTiVo to play back a broadcast at 480p instead of the 720p or 1080i quality that it was broadcast with. To date, broadcasters have promised not to use the flag except for premium programming such as PPV. With the prevalence of HDCP-compatible televisions, this is a shrinking concern.

"The most important thing in the FCC's broadcast flag rules is that the broadcast flag cannot be used to prevent recording. That is not the intent of the broadcast flag, and even the MPAA in its comments filed to the FCC agreed that it should not restrict consumers from recording or copying for personal use. For that matter, the FCC doesn't have the authority to mandate something that overrides copyright law which allows us to record and copy for personal use.

The FCC rules do not require devices to reduce the resolution of flagged HD material when it is output in analog form. (The FCC did not take any action to close the "analog hole".) However, devices will be required to reduce the resolution of flagged HD material when it is output in digital form over a signal path that is not secure. The HDTiVo's HDMI connection has the HDCP encryption, so the rule isn't applicable.

The FCC rules also spell out how recorders are to comply with the broadcast flag. First, recorders have to preserve the flag. If the flag is there when it's recorded then it has to be there when it's played back. Second, recorders have to encrypt the stored content using an approved method so it can't be used elsewhere, except by other compliant products."
-- Wayne Bundrick

"The broadcast flag prevents flagged content from being passed via unprotected digital outputs (unprotected Firewire or DVI). Digital output must be protected by 'approved' mechanisms ... namely 5C(DTCP, HDCP, CPRM, D-VHS) approved protections.

The only affect the broadcast flag could have on the HDTivo is that the DVI connection may require use of a DVI/HDCP compliant connection.

All that being said, there are additional copy restrictions (copy never, copy once, etc.) that can be applied above and beyond the broadcast flag by DirecTV (or any MSO). The FCC has issued guidelines on what types of restrictions can be imposed based on the content type (Broadcast, Subscription Channels, Premium Channels, PPV, VOD, etc). In the most restrictive case, premium content (like PPV) can be marked as 'copy never'. Even when content is marked as 'copy never', it is still allowed to be buffered/paused by a PVR for up to 90 minutes."
-- dt_dc

*All TV programs must be broadcast in HDTV as of the national switchoff in February 2009, right?*

Broadcasting programming in HDTV is not a requirement.

There is a Federally mandated requirement that all TV stations be broadcasting digital television by the end of 2003. Many stations applied for hardship waivers and other such requests for additional time to make this transition. But there was no requirement that this programming be High Definition (or any other format for that matter). Some stations use their digital transmitter to simulcast as many as 5 standard definition channels.

There was a Federally mandated requirement that all TV stations switch off their analog transmitter in 2009. This only affected TVs which received all of their programming over-the-air from 'rabbit ears'. A variety of subsidized converter boxes were made available for free to the public through a mail-in waiver program.


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## gilvelez

Nicely done...

Gil


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## kiljoy

Link for the SA HD Tivo is not working: 403 No Permission.

Tony


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by kiljoy _
> *Link for the SA HD Tivo is not working: 403 No Permission.
> 
> Tony *


Fixed. Thanks!


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## MikeSRC

I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant.


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## Jimbo713

Thanks, Feldon - good to see you back contributing so significantly.

Your FAQ is truly a beautiful piece of work! HD deserves this attention, as I'm sure the forthcoming HDDVR will be a huge success! I've got a Panasonic PT-47WX53 and love the HD format. Adding TiVo to it will be more than the icing on the cake.


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by MikeSRC _
> *I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant. *


Done.


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## Gregor

Great faq. Thanks!

Could the mods make it sticky?


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## jautor

I thought the rumored Samsung box (rumored $899) was supposed to have more capacity than the Hughes (rumored $699) unit? The original rumor post over on AVSforum said both on March 1st, and tagged the Hughes with a "lower recording capacity". And we know from the press release that the Hughes has 250GB, but not the price...

I'm hoping the Samsung unit is real, and assuming the rumored prices are correct, they could put a 2nd 250GB drive in that one. Especially if they used Samsung drives... (yo, Fred, pass me another pallet of drives, will ya!)

Jeff


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## feldon23

The press release from DirecTV says that the Hughes box will have a 250GB hard drive. I find it hard to believe that you get 250GB for $699.

If so, at $899 the Samsung will have, what, 500GB?!?


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## ccwf

Mismatched tags near PBS/WB plus you might want to indicate that people can click on the photos.


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## UKPronto

Well done Feldon.

I'm just slightly confused about the bit about the ATSC 480i standard which you say is "Not used in broadcast". You then say that some transmitting stations are simulcasting as many as 5 standard definition digital channels. Aren't these using 480i?


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## dswallow

The very last sentence is missing a 'd' in the word "deadline".


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## feldon23

ccwf, thanks. Fixed.

UKPronto. Sorry, you're right. Lemme fix.


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## jautor

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *The press release from DirecTV says that the Hughes box will have a 250GB hard drive. I find it hard to believe that you get 250GB for $699.
> 
> If so, at $899 the Samsung will have, what, 500GB?!? *


Agreed, $699 sounds too cheap for the initial launch price. Although as we both know, the "cost" of a DirecTV receiver and it's "price" have very little to do with each other... I don't think they need to subsidize the box, at least at first. So to me, the $699 price is the least believable part of that rumor post. But whatever the price of the Hughes box, Samsung could certainly add a second 250GB drive for a $200 SRP bump. They'd even have a few bucks of margin left . (Seriously, the cost of the 250GB drives has come down quite a bit, I'd guess in volume, from your own disk division, they should be ~$120 or so).

Even if was $300 more than the Hughes, if it has 500GB, I'll still buy it.

But look at the PVR921 at $999. If Hughes prices their box at $699-799, that's a steal given the added functionality! (and yes, I know, but there's no firewire - sorry, doesn't bother me *this year*).

Jeff


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## Stephen Tu

> DirecTV HD TiVos have a switch on the front of the unit allowing you to control the output format being sent over the Component outputs to suit the capabilities of your HDTV. This setting cannot be changed with the remote control


The people who have seen the demo / beta units seem to say that the second sentence here is untrue, you can change output format by remote. Can anyone confirm this? It would be highly annoying if you couldn't.


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## gaspanic

Nicely done. HDnet also has MLS in HD. Usually one game each Saturday night during their season.


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## Joe Smith

Another very useful website for determining what antenna you will need is
TitanTV which has an Antenna Selector.
The site lists the schedule for local HDTV broadcasts.


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## Toeside

Great job Feldon23. The compilation of "What's in HD" is a great part of the FAQ. It makes me want to run out to get an HDTV monitor now.

Craig


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## DCIFRTHS

Very nice document. Thanks for doing it !


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## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by MikeSRC _
> *I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant. *


I was under the impression that HDMI connectors plugged directly into HDCP connectors. Do you have any additional information on the converters, and what they do/how they work?

Thanks !


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *I was under the impression that HDMI connectors plugged directly into HDCP connectors. Do you have any additional information on the converters, and what they do/how they work? *


 HDCP is a protocol for content protection implemented on both DVI and HDMI interfaces. The HDMI connector itself isn't pin-compatible with a DVI connector, but there is a 1:1 correspondence of the digital video signals, so only an adapter is required. HDMI does include audio, however, which wouldn't be on a DVI connector.

Here's an excellent description of DVI, HDMI & HDCP: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/DVI_HDMI.htm


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## skellener

So does this mean no component video out?

Steve


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by skellener _
> *So does this mean no component video out?*


 No it does not mean that. What leads you to believe that?

The concept behind HDCP is that on suitably protected content any high-definition output that wasn't protected with HDCP would be disabled in favor of standard definition.


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## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *No it does not mean that. What leads you to believe that?
> 
> The concept behind HDCP is that on suitably protected content any high-definition output that wasn't protected with HDCP would be disabled in favor of standard definition. *


I didn't ask the original question, but your second sentance sounds like compoent outputs will NOT output HD signals. Is that what you intended to convey?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *I didn't ask the original question, but your second sentance sounds like compoent outputs will NOT output HD signals. Is that what you intended to convey? *


 When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.

If the content is not protected, you'll get HD output on DVI/HDMI outputs and component outputs.

In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.


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## kimsan

Great start! I'm sure this will just get better as more information becomes available.

Mods definitely need to make this a sticky!


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## jdk

great FAQ...

I'd suggest listing all the connections on the back of the HDTivo, and discuss their expected use (or non-use) - HDMI, Component, USB, 2 Sat, 1 ANT, etc...

I think there's a component question just above. Plus there's sure to be repeated questions about HDMI, DVI, HDCP, etc... dswallow's link above is a good start, but maybe a little too technical for everyone. 

Plus, I'd suggest adding a short section describing (to the best of our ability at this point) the operation of the HD Dtivo - mentioning that it is expected to release with version 3.X of software, meaning no HMO, etc...


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## HDTV-Tivo

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.
> 
> If the content is not protected, you'll get HD output on DVI/HDMI outputs and component outputs.
> 
> In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes. *


That really sucks because I have two HDTVs that only have component inputs. This means that under many circumstances I simply will not be able to have the picture quality that I was promised when I bought these TVs. That really pisses me off. From this point onward, I have no objections whatsoever for people who want to circumvent things like macrovision, because now I am in their shoes.

Standalone HDTivo users will really get screwed, because they wont be allowed to record high definition content period in these situations, whereas directivo users will at least be able to do that.

I will look forward to having the fun of hacking the tivo in such a way as to force the component outputs to always give you the best resolution possible.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by HDTV-Tivo _
> *That really sucks because I have two HDTVs that only have component inputs. This means that under many circumstances I simply will not be able to have the picture quality that I was promised when I bought these TVs. That really pisses me off. From this point onward, I have no objections whatsoever for people who want to circumvent things like macrovision, because now I am in their shoes.
> 
> Standalone HDTivo users will really get screwed, because they wont be allowed to record high definition content period in these situations, whereas directivo users will at least be able to do that.
> 
> I will look forward to having the fun of hacking the tivo in such a way as to force the component outputs to always give you the best resolution possible. *


 Well keep in mind...

1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...

2) There will never be a standalone HDTiVo that encodes analog signals. Never say never, right? Well, there's no existing chipset to do HD realtime mpeg2 encoding that could be used in an affordable standalone. Think many thousands of dollars using existing technology. Any standalone HDTiVo will be limited to OTA ATSC signals which would be received digitally, and to SD recording for anything it has to encode.


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## smak

Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

-smak-


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by smak _
> *Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish. *


 Probably not, since program information comes via satellite, I'd suspect the receiver would be not much more than a standard OTA receiver without the dish hooked up and a subscription. I doubt the TiVo functionality would work, at least.


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## Wayne Bundrick

The so-called "broadcast flag" has the vaguely worded purpose of keeping copyrighted programming from being distributed all over the Internet. It is not intended to limit recording, timeshifting, or distributing it within the home, all of which are allowed by copyright law and the FCC has no authority to touch that. Also, as much as the MPAA would want to have the broadcast flag close the "analog hole", the FCC did not agree to close it.

See http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-273A1.pdf . It's all dry government-speak, but the FCC's point of view and their decisions are straightforward, and Appendix B contains the new regulations for the broadcast flag.


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by skellener _
> *So does this mean no component video out?
> 
> Steve *


Believe it or not, HD TiVos WILL be compatible with the 96% of HDTV sets out there that only have Component inputs.  



> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.*


The FCC basically told the broadcast industry that if they want the FCC's wrath, go ahead and try to copy-protect non-premium content.


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## feldon23

> _jdk said:_
> *I'd suggest listing all the connections on the back of the HDTivo*


We don't know what the back of the HD DTiVo looks like yet but we can assume:

2 Satellite inputs
1 Component Video output
1 S-Video output
2 RCA video/audio outputs
1 Optical audio output
2 useless USB ports (they'd be dumb not to make em USB2)
1 HDMI (HDCP) port
1 power port

*Here's a photo of the prototype that DirecTV was demoing at CES 2003.* Realize that they put the Component outputs where 1 set of RCA outputs were. I doubt this represents the layout the final unit will have. I will probably grow to regret posting this picture. 












> _jdk said:_
> *Plus, I'd suggest adding a short section describing (to the best of our ability at this point) the operation of the HD Dtivo - mentioning that it is expected to release with version 3.X of software, meaning no HMO, etc...*


We don't know any of this yet.


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by smak _
> *Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.
> 
> -smak- *


Absolutely not.

These are OTA 8VSB digital tuners.


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## Heinrichs

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...
> *


That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?

And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag.


----------



## feldon23

I don't think the TiVo would have the CPU power to downrez the footage and record that to disk. Could be wrong...


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Heinrichs _
> *That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?
> 
> And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag. *


 Downconverting for display is pretty simple; all current HD receivers do this, actually. The HD TiVo won't have the ability to encode MPEG2 in any fashion; it can only record the datastream it tunes to, be it OTA DTV or DirecTV SD or HD. But even an HD program recorded can be displayed on SD monitors because downconverting for display, as mentioned before, is simple and easily done.

It'll record what you tell it to, and display it on all outputs in a format appropriate for that output (and taking into consideration the front panel setting for the digital/component output format).

(And upconverting for display is no big deal either; all current HD receivers can do this too)


----------



## Philosofy

A quick question: How would the HDTiVo differentiate between recording an HD program or its analog counterpart? If I am running low on drive space, could I tell it to record the West Wing in standard def tonight, rather than HD? Will season passes be format specific?


----------



## feldon23

I suppose you can set up Season Passes for whichever channel you want, whether it's the analog or digital version.

I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution.


----------



## Philosofy

After thinking about it, you would probably put in two season passes, with the digital station just above the analog. The 28 day rule would keep both from recording, and if there isn't enough space, it would automatically revert to the analog channel.


----------



## dswallow

Your choice; the 28-day rule applies. Create a season pass on the HD channel and a season pass on the SD channel. Prioritize the HD season pass first, then the SD one, if there's not enough space to record the HD program (and "not enough space" means there's nothing that could be automatically deleted at that time), then it wouldn't record, and if there were enough space for the SD version, it would record.

Season passes being channel-specific makes this easy.

Now for wishlists, it'd be different. One would expect a new option would be provided on wishlists with regard to HD vs. SD program preferences, and I think that was alluded to by someone allegedly with first-hand knowledge of it.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *I suppose you can set up Season Passes for whichever channel you want, whether it's the analog or digital version.
> 
> I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution. *


 I do not understand this "total lack of guide data" argument. I have full guide data for every HD channel in the program guide on my DirecTV HD receiver. That includes all NYC and Philadelphia stations.

I suppose it may be referring to subchannels; except that in NYC the Fox station is broadcasting the UPN station on a subchannel and there's guide data for that. So again I do not understand this argument.

This has been the case since March, at least, as that's when I got my receiver. I'm sure it's been the case for far longer, though.


----------



## jdk

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *
> 
> I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution. *


DirecTV currently sends guide data for the local HD channels through the satellites to your HD receiver. You simply enter a zipcode for your local HD channels, and your locals appear in the Guide.

Its not 100% perfect - it depends upon how acurately your local TV station reports to their guide service (don't recall exactly who they're currently using), but it seems to be pretty good right now.


----------



## feldon23

Well, you learn something every day!


----------



## AAhitman

If I am reading all this about connections right then the HD Tivo won't hook up to my 42" Mits which only has RGBHV connections. No DVI or HDMI. Is this correct?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by AAhitman _
> *If I am reading all this about connections right then the HD Tivo won't hook up to my 42" Mits which only has RGBHV connections. No DVI or HDMI. Is this correct? *


 There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36

But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).

I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television.


----------



## rscorer

Thanks for posting this information, I am now really looking forward to my trip to CES 

March is going to be an exciting month, I think I need a new equipment stack 

Cheers,
Richard


----------



## rcwalters

I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?

If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by rcwalters _
> *I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?
> 
> If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent. *


 The HDTiVo is the receiver and will connect to your HD monitor directly via HDMI, DVI or component inputs. The "receiver" you refer to is the same sort of thing... but just for over-the-air reception, and isn't necessary if you have a different HD source like the HDTiVo, or another HD satellite receiver, or HD cable box.


----------



## KenW

I think we need a picture or a link on how to wire for it. I like the 3 dish option myself.


----------



## AAhitman

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36
> 
> But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).
> 
> I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television. *


Mits has a promise module but it is 1000.00 and I'm not sure if it adds DVI. I know it adds firewire and a tuner. This could be a very expensive proposition.


----------



## Bigg

Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs. *


 The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals.


----------



## Bigg

That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks. *


 You're not grasping this... Everything broadcast on a digital station is digital -- meaning it's transmitted as MPEG2 encoded data. This broadcast format is called ATSC. The old analog broadcast stations are NTSC format. Anything coming over an ATSC channel is recordable. It doesn't matter what resolution it's broadcast in; it's still digital and MPEG2-encoded.


----------



## Wayne Bundrick

If by "SD locals" you mean an ATSC signal that is SDTV instead of HDTV, for example a TV station that is too cheap to do HDTV so they are just simulcasting their analog signal using 480i, then I believe the answer should be "yes".

The HDTiVo is just going to spool the digital stream, or the relevant portion of it, as-is to the hard disk, so it shouldn't care what the format is until it's time to play it. And if the HDTiVo can play HDTV, then it surely has more than enough horsepower to play SDTV. I'm not aware of any HDTV receiver that is so borked that it can't handle SDTV. For that matter, ATSC compliance requires the ability to decode and display all 36 variants of the ATSC formats. DirecTV HDTiVo has no choice but to do it because all of the non-HD channels on DirecTV are effectively SDTV channels, and I don't see why they would handle DirecTV's SDTV channels but not be able to handle OTA ATSC SDTV.

Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.

Relax. HDTiVo should be able to record all OTA digital signals regardless of the resolution.


----------



## Bigg

> _Originally posted by Wayne Bundrick _
> *Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.
> *


  LOL 
ok I get it. I'll have a regular DTiVo, but I was jus wondering.


----------



## Bigg

> _Originally posted by Wayne Bundrick _
> *Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.
> *


  LOL 
ok I get it. I'll have a regular DTiVo, but I was jus wondering.


----------



## Greyhawk68

Hey guys,

I currently have Comcast and utilize a bunch of their hi-def stations through their HD set top box. It does both standard and hi-def programming. It has RGB out to the Mits TV which has RGB in. Now, I want to put the new standalone Hi-def TiVo in the middle of that stream. From what I'm seeing, this isn't going to be an option right? Will the Hi-Def standalone NOT be able to record a hi-def stream from my Comcast hi-def cable box?

Can someone clarify this a little bit. I'm unfortunately confused :-(

Thanks,
Grey


----------



## Bigg

No. It wouldn't be ble to encode the stream. Get HDDTiVo.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Greyhawk68 _
> *I currently have Comcast and utilize a bunch of their hi-def stations through their HD set top box. It does both standard and hi-def programming. It has RGB out to the Mits TV which has RGB in. Now, I want to put the new standalone Hi-def TiVo in the middle of that stream. From what I'm seeing, this isn't going to be an option right? Will the Hi-Def standalone NOT be able to record a hi-def stream from my Comcast hi-def cable box? *


 A couple things... no HD standalone TiVo has been announced. But no, it would not be able to record the stream as you would like to use it. The reason is that there is no inexpensive solution to encode HD resolutions in MPEG2, so the only things the HD TiVo is able to record are things already MPEG2 encoded, which means DirecTV or OTA broadcasts from ATSC digital stations.

There is an emerging cable decoder standard that might make it practical for TiVo to build a standalone HD device that could work with cable systems, but that standard isn't finalized (technically, though for practical purposes it is), and requires the cable systems to support it, and none of that is going to happen quickly.


----------



## Archangel

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *We don't know what the back of the HD DTiVo looks like yet but we can assume:
> 
> 2 Satellite inputs
> 1 Component Video output
> 1 S-Video output
> 2 RCA video/audio outputs
> 1 Optical audio output
> 2 useless USB ports (they'd be dumb not to make em USB2)
> 1 HDMI (HDCP) port
> 1 power port *


Now if you had a video display device that has one DVI/HDCP input and one HDMI....and plan on getting a DVD player with a HDMI output (Pioneer 59AVi)....who would you allot the HDMI input and who would get the DVI input on the video display.

Does one sacrafice any picture quality when you use a DVI to HDMI cable....instead of a pure HDMI to HDMI or DVI to DVI cable ?

And I presume you can flip flop the cable....and instead of using DVI from sat receiver to HDMI on video display....you can use HDMI on sat receiver to DVI on Video display?

If I upgrade to the HD DirecTV/TiVo...am I stuck with a fairly new and in pristine condition HD300 sat receiver. Can one sell these units even though it is registered at DirecTV in my name ??

And it seems all the HD DirecTV have little quirks and foibles....how could I sell it without someone wanting to return back to me.....because of a quirk that the whole line of HD300s have ??


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *Can the HDTiVo record SD locals?*


Although I'm sure it varies a lot depending on where you live, most (maybe all?) of my local stations here in Atlanta multicast an SD feed with the HD feed in the digital signal. So in such a case, you'd be able to choose whether to record SD or HD. I don't watch that much stuff on the broadcast networks - I don't even look at that part of the guide very often, so I'm not sure if that's the case with ALL of the stations. In the case where the original program is not HD, I'll prefer to watch it on the SD feed, because they don't normally zoom the SD feed to fill the screen height (so there are borders all around). My TV doesn't let me zoom HD feeds (and I don't think my receiver does either).


----------



## Bryanmc

Darin!

Fantastic to see you again!

Please don't be a stranger anymore, we miss you!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Archangel _
> *Now if you had a video display device that has one DVI/HDCP input and one HDMI....and plan on getting a DVD player with a HDMI output (Pioneer 59AVi)....who would you allot the HDMI input and who would get the DVI input on the video display.
> 
> Does one sacrafice any picture quality when you use a DVI to HDMI cable....instead of a pure HDMI to HDMI or DVI to DVI cable ?
> 
> And I presume you can flip flop the cable....and instead of using DVI from sat receiver to HDMI on video display....you can use HDMI on sat receiver to DVI on Video display?*


 The video signals present on a DVI cable are identical to the same on an HDMI; it's purely a pin-to-pin cable. There's no loss whatsoever between DVI-HDMI, DVI-DVI, or HDMI-HDMI.

HDMI is just a smaller connector and also has digital audio signals.

HDMI-DVI cables aren't directional; you can use them in either direction.


----------



## Darin

Well gee, thanks Bryan.  I was probably spending a little too much time here, but I'm pretty excited about the HD-Tivo, so I expect I'll be popping in some more.


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## Todd

> _Originally posted by Bryanmc _
> *Darin!
> 
> Fantastic to see you again!
> 
> Please don't be a stranger anymore, we miss you! *


He's been hiding out at the avsforum the whole time....


----------



## turls

Great FAQ.

I know programming is in a constant state of flux, but if people don't pay attention they might think they are going to get NBA TV on DirecTV in HD with their new receiver. They stopped giving NBA TV HD to us when we started _paying_ for HD. 

Of course, Dish has it, probably the only time in recent memory they have really one-upped DirecTV on HD programming.

There aren't even enough details to know who is at fault, the NBA, DirecTV, or a combination of the 2.


----------



## turls

DirecTV e-mail or phone acts completely clueless when you ask them about anything having to do with OTA and DirecTV receivers. So why is this so hard to understand? They are lucky to have all the stations in my area in my guide (they actually still don't for stations that have been up for months), I don't expect them to have guide data 100% correct either, and they sure as heck don't. Once channel has no guide data still.

And at least on the Samsung TS160, you scan one direction you lose your previous scans so the box has no clue about antenna rotors either. The HDDTivo probably won't either.

I'll decide if I want to delete the channels from previous scans, ok?



> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *I do not understand this "total lack of guide data" argument. I have full guide data for every HD channel in the program guide on my DirecTV HD receiver. That includes all NYC and Philadelphia stations.*


----------



## feldon23

That's a recurring nightmare on HD receivers. The inability to add/delete channels manually and/or keep channels from previous scans.


----------



## Todd

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *That's a recurring nightmare on HD receivers. The inability to add/delete channels manually and/or keep channels from previous scans. *


That's how the built-in tuner acted when I got my Hitachi a year ago, but someone requested that it be changed and guess what...Hitachi upgraded the software to allow you to tune in a digital channel directly and if it detects a signal, it will add it to the lineup!  A few months ago I requested the the upgraded which they sent on an MMC card and I upgraded the software in my TV. :up: I love saying that...


----------



## SourKraut

Will Directv ever offer the network channels in hd and if so, when? I'm frustrated by the fact that I live in the hills of LA and can't get HD even with a boosted channelmaster antenna. I don't want the local digital cable and I'm hoping Directv will offer it sometime.


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## feldon23

DirecTV will never be allowed to by the government or local affiliates, even if you can't receive them.


----------



## jamesmil

Lack of unscrambled QAM support is a dissapointment, as I am unable to receive the local channels over the air (big hill between me and the towers, too much interference), yet our cable company offers all but one as unscrabled QAM signals on their most basic cable tier...


----------



## Darin

Although I doubt you'll see a "national feed", I'd expect to see something like we have today (distant NY/LA locals) for those who qualify. I also expect to see HD locals, at least for the major markets, within the next couple of years. Sure, there's some pain in the interim, but I do believe it's coming.


----------



## Archangel

I was just looking over last year's CES announcement on the HD DirecTV/TiVo. I was wondering what was the real reason that it is taking now 12 months...and probably another 2 or so before we can actually touch a working unit.

Was it just a concept on paper back in January 2003 and they announced too early ?
Or were there just so many unanticipated technical hurdles ?


----------



## jeff125va

Thanks for the excellent summary Feldon. You covered all those combinations of recording OTA and DirecTV channels simultaneously, which probably answers a question I've had for a while. I remember someone speculating a while back that regardless of how many tuners it had, it wouldn't be able to record two HD channels at the same time. But if the OTA channels can only be digital, I'd have to assume that it can.

I also think we'll start to see HD locals rolled out within the next few years. They've been adding more and more markets, even when they had to start carrying ALL the local network channels for each market. Hopefully it'll happen before they switch back to the normal channel numbers and my UHF-only antenna doesn't work any more.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by Archangel _
> *I was wondering what was the real reason that it is taking now 12 months*


Although I haven't looked at that announcement in a long time, IIRC, even back then it wasn't expected until 4th qtr 2003. The story I've heard is that it's late because at the time of CES last year, it was not planned to be able to record two streams at one time. Those of us who have gotten used to two tuners made a big stink about it, so they had to do some redesign to add tuners and enable it to handle the bandwidth to process two HD streams at once (at the time of CES last year, they indicated bandwidth was the issue). So all things considered, I don't think it's THAT late.


----------



## BrettStah

> feldon23 said...
> *DirecTV HD TiVos have a switch on the front of the unit allowing you to control the output format being sent over the Component outputs to suit the capabilities of your HDTV. This setting cannot be changed with the remote control.*


Feldon, where did you hear that part about not being able to switch output formats with the remote? I've heard the opposite.


----------



## dfusfeld

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *Feldon, where did you hear that part about not being able to switch output formats with the remote? I've heard the opposite. *


I'm someone with no HD in any form - YET, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but why would you even need to do this? Wouldn't you set your output format once and be done?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by dfusfeld _
> *I'm someone with no HD in any form - YET, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but why would you even need to do this? Wouldn't you set your output format once and be done? *


 In an ideal world, yes, you'd probably do this, or actually you might prefer to have the output automatically switch to whatever the source material actually is, avoiding any circuitry in the receiver that converts it from one resolution to another (presumably because you have some other device that does a better job at this).

But in the real world, a lot of monitors are unable to manipulate (stretch or zoom) a 720p or 1080i signal. So someone desiring to zoom in on a letterboxed 4:3 signal to fill their 16:9 display, or to stretch the 4:3 signal across their 16:9 display can only do so when the signal coming into the display is 480i or 480p.


----------



## Darin

Another reason would be if you had a high-end CRT display that could do multiple HD resolutions natively. If your projector could do both 720p and 1080i natively, then you'd want to output 720p for ABC and ESPN (and Fox later this year), but 1080i for the others. This would prevent any quality loss from converting to another resolution.

But most of us have display devices that can only display one or the other natively, so it's usually set once and left alone.


----------



## BrettStah

I will need to be able to do this in order to be able to properly output to my channel modulator, which supplies up to 4 different things to other TVs in my house. There are IR extenders that send remote control signals back to the devices from those rooms, making it easy to watch anything from any Tivo from any room in the house. 

Unfortunately, the HD-Tivo will not output on the analog outputs while set to output a HD signal, so I'll need a way to switch to an analog output in order to watch something on a TV somewhere other than my main TV.


----------



## feldon23

Your cheapest solution is to buy a DirecTV TiVo for $70 and $5 a month.


----------



## Bigg

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.


----------



## Bigg

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.


----------



## Bigg

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.


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## feldon23

http://www.stutteringhelp.org/


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## BrettStah

Feldon, if I missed your reply I apologize, but did you see my question earlier in this thread about your statement regarding switching output formats only with the front panel buttons and not with the remote?


----------



## feldon23

Hi Brett,

I haven't heard anything concrete. What I remember from early posts was that it was a switch on the front of the unit and could NOT be controlled by remote. Maybe I am completely mis-remembering. If this is in error, then I will correct it.

Ok, I've updated the FAQ to explain the vagueness of this.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Hi Brett,
> 
> I haven't heard anything concrete. What I remember from early posts was that it was a switch on the front of the unit and could NOT be controlled by remote. Maybe I am completely mis-remembering. If this is in error, then I will correct it. *


 Some time ago when that picture was first posted and I exclaimed how bad it is if there were no codes for it, someone chimed in saying there was a control on the remote to toggle through them. No word on if there's discrete codes to select a specific format (which I would really seriously hope they provide).


----------



## enodev

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> Unfortunately, the HD-Tivo will not output on the analog outputs while set to output a HD signal, so I'll need a way to switch to an analog output in order to watch something on a TV somewhere other than my main TV. [/B]


Can you view 480p via component video?


----------



## feldon23

Component can carry 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Some home theater receivers cannot pass the entire frequency range and only work with 480p.

Realize that early Component inputs were basically super S-Video or 480i.

DVD players output 480p or better.


----------



## enodev

Thanks, but I understand all that. My question is will the HD Tivo run 480p through the component outputs? The original quote claimed in HD mode, all analog outputs were disabled.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by enodev _
> *Thanks, but I understand all that. My question is will the HD Tivo run 480p through the component outputs? The original quote claimed in HD mode, all analog outputs were disabled. *


 The capability of disabling analog output of high definition signals is present in HDCP, but 480p is not high definition. It's also not that the analog outputs would be completely disabled in such cases, but that the resolution would be reduced from high definition in such cases.


----------



## webboy1

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually. *


Wrong some of us have a Zone 2 capable receiver which only accepts a analog signal. I for one like to have the sound on in the garage when i go for a beer or a smoke, let alone any other room in the house, or maybe the backyard where i have a clear shot of the plasma.

No simultansous output is really gonna suck.


----------



## feldon23

Nobody said you won't get analog and digital audio at the same time. We're talking about video.


----------



## enodev

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *The capability of disabling analog output of high definition signals is present in HDCP, but 480p is not high definition. It's also not that the analog outputs would be completely disabled in such cases, but that the resolution would be reduced from high definition in such cases. *


Ok thanks. I was not sure what TiVo considered HD. I believe 480p is considered Enhanced Def (EDTV.) People have different opinions on what true HD res is. 720p & 1080i is what I consider HD. Oh, this may open a can of worms!


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## Bigg

enodev: your right. feldon 23: thanks for reminding him.


----------



## ebonovic

Can you add a link under the :
"What hardware do I need for local digital/HDTV channels?"
To the avsforum, Local Reception Forum... Similar to what you did for the HDTV programming section


----------



## feldon23

Done. And updated the FAQ for CBS O&O news and switchable aspect ratio.


----------



## BizarroTerl

Does the HDTivo support discrete on/off codes (for remote programming)?


----------



## feldon23

I don't think we'll know this until it comes out. Keep in mind that TiVos are designed to stay on 24/7.


----------



## BizarroTerl

I realize that. I'm referring to standby mode. I've been waiting for a HDTivo for a couple years now. I guess I can hold on for a few more months.


----------



## BrettStah

BizarroTerl, I know this came up recently in another Tivo-related thread with you, but I don't remember exactly what purpose you have to want to switch to and from standby mode on the DirecTV/HD-Tivo so often...


----------



## dvdude

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *BizarroTerl, I know this came up recently in another Tivo-related thread with you, but I don't remember exactly what purpose you have to want to switch to and from standby mode on the DirecTV/HD-Tivo so often... *


It's my understanding that some video equipment will automatically switch inputs based on the presence/absence of a signal. So one might want to be able to shut off TiVo's output for this.

I have to admit, I do bring my boxes in and out of standby regularly, but not for the reason stated above. First, it just feels right (I know, I know) but also, in the last few minutes before I leave for work, I'm too busy to concentrate on the TV. Because I leave turning the gear off as my last task, I can catch up with those last few minutes when I get home by rewinding the buffer (remembering not to change channels of course). I have a theory also about disk drive wear and constantly recording the buffer 24/7 but it's only a theory. Finally, my machine is cooler when in standby and probably consumes a couple of watts less.


----------



## Zathrus

> I have a theory also about disk drive wear and constantly recording the buffer 24/7


You can theorize all you like, but the buffers are still recorded when in standby.

All standby does is turn off the front LED and enable pass-through mode on the coax input/output. The TiVo will also record more suggestions because it knows you're not watching, but there is no significant power savings (<0.1W for the LED) and the hard drives continue recording.


----------



## dvdude

> _Originally posted by Zathrus _
> *You can theorize all you like, but the buffers are still recorded when in standby.
> 
> All standby does is turn off the front LED and enable pass-through mode on the coax input/output. The TiVo will also record more suggestions because it knows you're not watching, but there is no significant power savings (<0.1W for the LED) and the hard drives continue recording. *


Erm NO - The SAT-T60's definitely do NOT work the way you suggest


----------



## BrettStah

No buffering in standby mode on my DirecTivos either...


----------



## kwerner

The no simultaneous analog & HD output does suck. I was hoping we'd be beyond this now, my older HD DirecTV receiver doesn't have it. 

What if I want to send the analog video to another room via a wireless video sender, or through modulated output to coax wires in my house(does it have modulated output?)? What if I want to copy a show onto CD/DVD to save it or let a friend watch a show he missed??? Currently I do this via SVideo to my HTPC. What if the scaler(?) in the HDTiVo isn't very good and I want to use an external one for SD content?

Otherwise it sounds great!!! If anyone finds out how to get an pre-order let us know.


----------



## Bigg

Your TV or receiver may be able to do this. I'm not too sure. It would only be the higher end ones if it is possible.


----------



## JTAnderson

Does anyone know whether it will record the entire transport stream for OTA channels or only the data for the subchannel you want to record? (And, will it strip null packets to save disk space?)


----------



## hongcho

Only the subchannel. I am not sure about the null packets.

Hong.


----------



## nabsltd

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.*


This second part is unlikely. For OTA, anyway, component is one of the specifically-permitted-at-all-times HD outputs in the FCC broadcast flag ruling.

Secondly, since cable companies are forbidded to down-res on component as part of the plug-and-play cable ruling, I highly doubt that DirecTV (or any other satellite provider) would be allowed to.


----------



## rogo

Actually, the bizarre part of the plug and play rules is that >>if<< DirecTV or Dish >>is<< allowed to down rez, then cable can too.

It's all very unlikely to come to pass, though.


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Next month, DirecTV will offer national easy and west coast CBS and Fox feeds to all those who qualify.*


Great FAQ! I think you mean "east" rather than "easy."


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Todd76 _
> *Great FAQ! I think you mean "east" rather than "easy."  *


 feldon23, as a resident of middle of the United States, has only heard stories about the eastern United States and simply experienced a moment of wishful thinking.


----------



## Darin

How do you qualify for the easy feed?


----------



## feldon23

Doug, how you, me, and Darin are keeping this topic relatively innuendo-free is beyond me.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Doug, how you, me, and Darin are keeping this topic relatively innuendo-free is beyond me.  *


 We have class.


----------



## feldon23

Which is highly over-rated.


----------



## Darin

It's not over yet.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *Another reason would be if you had a high-end CRT display that could do multiple HD resolutions natively. If your projector could do both 720p and 1080i natively, then you'd want to output 720p for ABC and ESPN (and Fox later this year), but 1080i for the others. This would prevent any quality loss from converting to another resolution. .....
> 
> *


I agree with your statement, but the truth of the matter is that the majority of people have no clue what resolution programs are broadcast in. Frankly, there should be no reason that a consumer should have to ascertain what resolution a particular broadcaster decides to broadcast in. For the record, I am in the clueless group as far as what the networks are broadcasting in, but I do consider myself to be somewhat knowledgeable in the area of Home Theatre and consumer electronics.

Honestly, the whole HD roll-out is just a mess. If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution. An override would be available for people who wanted to customize. But what the heck do I know...


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Where is the signal processed for things like brightness, contrast, 3:2 pull down etc. when a DVI connection is used? In the source device or the display?

Obviously, if you are displaying on a fixed pixel display, then conversion happens in the display or its outboard processor.

I am asking because I have a follow up question, but I want to find an definitive answer before I ask it.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution.*


The ONLY display technology in use today that doesn't have an inherent "native" resolution is CRT. CRT can simply change the number of lines it does in one scan to accommodate any number of resolutions. But unfortunately, most CRT HD sets available don't take advantage of this ability. The electronics within them are designed to scan at one or maybe two specific frequencies (usually 1080, and maybe additionally 480 for SD), and separate electronics in the set run the image through interpolation when the incoming signal does not match that resolution. Why they do this, I don't know, because the picture would look best if displayed at it's original resolution rather than interpolated to another. Practically all CRT based computer monitors, even cheap sub-$100 ones, do multi-scan, so why this ability can mostly only be found in high-end projectors is a mystery to me.

Anyway, all the other display types have a fixed pixel geometry, no matter what you do with the incoming signal, they only have a specific amount of physical pixels to work with, so they MUST interpolate the incoming signal to match their native resolution, if it's not the same already.

So this is why most (all???) STBs don't simply output whatever resolution the original signal is, because unless you have one of those relatively rare CRT sets that can do multiscan, the TV is going to convert it to a specific resolution anyway. So all things being equal, it's better to do that conversion in the STB while the signal is still digital, and it ensures the guide and other STB generated graphics look better (they don't end up going through an interpolation).

That's why I said the ability to switch output resolutions would benefit high-end CRT owners, because this would let them override the automatic interpolation to a specific resolution, and get the best PQ possible out of the incoming signal. And those who wanted to take advantage of that ability would most likely know which networks are which. For everyone else, leaving it set to the native resolution of your TV is generally best. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, ABC, ESPN, and in the fall, FOX, use 720p, while all the others use 1080i.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *Where is the signal processed for things like brightness, contrast, 3:2 pull down etc. when a DVI connection is used? In the source device or the display?*


Brightness and contrast are generally done in the display device. 3:2 pull down would not be done in the display device unless you were sending it a 480i signal. So if you have your STB set to 720p, then if any 3:2 pulldown was done to SD programming, it would have to be done at the STB.


----------



## Knative

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *I agree with your statement, but the truth of the matter is that the majority of people have no clue what resolution programs are broadcast in.
> 
> If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution. *


 My CRT set supports 480p & 1080i. So a STB outputting native resolution would work fine for most of my channels. ABC on the other hand outputs in 720p, which my CRT doesn't support. So if the STB outputs 720p I'm going to get a blank screen. This would be a bad thing. Assuming I knew that ABC was 720p and that my CRT won't support 720p I'd still have to manually switch the STB to output either 480p or 1080i to get a picture. If the STB just side-converts everything to one resolution (that my CRT supports) all I have to know is how to change the channel.

Plasmas will usually do 480p and 720p. So I'd be able to watch either Fox or ABC & ESPN-HD without having to know anything. PBS, NBC, CBS, UPN, HBO, etc. would give me a blank screen. And we're back to knowing what channel outputs what signal.

It's much easier for the masses to output one (supported) resolution at all times. Those with more knowledge and a compatible set can adjust the output resolution to their heart's content.


----------



## BrettStah

I think that the best all-around feature would be to be able to select whatever output you want, OR to enable a "native" mode option that would pass whatever signal the show is in. It looks like for whatever reason that neither the HD-Tivo nor the Dish 921 have this option though.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *The ONLY display technology in use today that doesn't have an inherent "native" resolution is CRT. CRT can simply change the number of lines it does in one scan to accommodate any number of resolutions. But unfortunately, most CRT HD sets available don't take advantage of this ability. The electronics within them are designed to scan at one or maybe two specific frequencies (usually 1080, and maybe additionally 480 for SD), and separate electronics in the set run the image through interpolation when the incoming signal does not match that resolution. Why they do this, I don't know, because the picture would look best if displayed at it's original resolution rather than interpolated to another. Practically all CRT based computer monitors, even cheap sub-$100 ones, do multi-scan, so why this ability can mostly only be found in high-end projectors is a mystery to me. ...... *


While I think it's great that technology moves forward, and we are seeing all sorts of new display innovations, it's too bad that most of them are fixed pixel designs. DLP, LCoS, LCD etc. This is why I still say that an RPTV, if you have the room, is the best way to go. They still offer the best display, and are a bargain because of the new technologies.

My RPTV will display 480i, 480p (?), 960i, 1080i, and it accepts 720p. The reason I put a question mark after 480p is because I am still researching that mode, and the details are sketchy. It is thought that all resolutions below 720p are converted to 960i on my particular set (Sony 57-WV700). Apparently 960i is very easy for the set to convert to, and gives a very solid picture. 720p is up-converted to 1080i. I don't like this idea because I believe that a 720p display will look better than a resolution of 1080i because of the interlacing. It's a shame that the best looking resolution (in theory) is more expensive to reproduce and therefore ignored by most (all?) manufacturers.

When I said there are 18 formats for HD, I didn't mean that the display device could or should display all of them. Since the networks have "standardized" on a few resolutions, what I would like to see is the native display of the ones that are being broadcast - without the end user having to figure out the resolution of the broadcast and then selecting the output on the STB. You brought up a really good point, and it's one that supports my whole "HD roll out is a mess" theory. There is conversion going on in at least one place in the signal path.

It bothers me that the HD roll out has so many compromises in it. This was the perfect chance to do a standard correctly, but because of various (read political) reasons, it is a compromise. On top of that it is a confusing for consumers.

At least we are moving forward. Albeit rather slowly.....


----------



## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by Knative _
> *My CRT set supports 480p & 1080i. So a STB outputting native resolution would work fine for most of my channels. ABC on the other hand outputs in 720p, which my CRT doesn't support. So if the STB outputs 720p I'm going to get a blank screen. .... *


Are you sure the display won't convert a 720p signal to something else?



> _Originally posted by Knative _
> *Plasmas will usually do 480p and 720p. So I'd be able to watch either Fox or ABC & ESPN-HD without having to know anything. PBS, NBC, CBS, UPN, HBO, etc. would give me a blank screen. *


I believe that plasma displays output at a fixed resolution, so regardless of what signal you feed them, there is conversion of the signal to match the native resolution of the display. Am I making an incorrect statement?


----------



## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *Brightness and contrast are generally done in the display device. 3:2 pull down would not be done in the display device unless you were sending it a 480i signal. So if you have your STB set to 720p, then if any 3:2 pulldown was done to SD programming, it would have to be done at the STB. *


So what does the display device do with a DVI (digital) signal? Is the ONLY thing it does is convert it to analog for display?


----------



## Darin

I also have a Sony set (46WT510), and it actually DOWNconverts 720p to 480p, and many Sonys do the same. And 960i is technically 1080i... all they do for 960i is put put it in a 1080i frame, then vertically stretch the image so the black bars are off-screen. There is also a guy at HomeTheaterSpot who claims that 480 signals are always converted to 960 (and hence, 1080) on Sony CRTs. I'm not sure if I believe that, but if it's true, then these sets only have one scan rate.

There are sets that don't support 720p AT ALL (they won't do an internal conversion), but it's usually moot since virtually all STBs give you an option of what resolution they output. The fact that my set downconverts 720p is also moot, since my set never sees 720p... the signal is converted to 1080i in the STB before it ever sees the TV. But I agree, the no compromise solution would be for my set to be able to natively disply 720 lines as well as 1080, and have the STB output whatever resolution the programming came in at. But I think the fact that so few displays actually can do multiple resolutions natively is why no STBs have the option to pass the signal in it's native format. In fact, my STB has the output resolution selection as a physical switch in the BACK of the unit... it's meant to be a set and forget setting.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *So what does the display device do with a DVI (digital) signal? Is the ONLY thing it does is convert it to analog for display? *


Well, that's going to depend on the set, and I can't pretend to know what they all do, but I think generally, if it's an analog display (CRT), then it's converted to analog, then processed like any other input. If it's a digital display, then it stays in the digital domain, and any processing is done digitally.


----------



## Knative

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *Are you sure the display won't convert a 720p signal to something else?
> *


 Yep, I'm sure. I have a Zenith HD-DVR that outputs 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Pressing the button on the front of the STB cycles the output resolutions. And while I was incorrect for the sake of convenience in saying that 720p will give me a 'blank screen' what it does in reality is give me a signal that looks like an old VCR that should be outputting on channel 4 instead of channel 3. A vertical line down the middle of the screen with both halves of the picture on the wrong sides and wavy horizontal lines. 480i does give a blank screen as the component inputs can't handle that signal.

My projector does 480p, 720p, and 1080i. But it looses sync for a couple of seconds when the signal type changes. So I leave the DVR at 1080i and don't worry about ABC too much. Alias still looks great.

My main point is that there is a large number of people spending a large amount of money on TVs that have no idea what they're really getting. I personally know a gent who thought that his "HDTV Ready" set would give him HDTV from every channel on basic cable. He had no idea that he'd need a STB and (for OTA) an antenna to receive true HDTV. Or that only certain channels were broadcasting in HDTV. And only at certain times. Or that he couldn't use the yellow video cable for HDTV. At least he'd upgraded from coax. I only found out when he was disappointed in the "HDTV" that he was seeing after hearing me rave about my PQ. A quick trip to his house and a bit of explaining only started to set him straight. Telling him he'd need to spend another $500 or so on a HDTV STB didn't make him too happy.

The same type of thing happens to folks that think they're getting 5.1 DD from the red & white audio jacks. Their receiver supports it so they must have it, not matter what connector they used, right?


----------



## feldon23

Fortunately every HDTV Set-Top Box on the market lets you pick the output resolution and converts between them. Very few HDTVs can handle 720p natively and many Plasmas can't handle 1080i so this is the perfect solution.

The only people left out are those with high-end equipment that can handle 720p and 1080i and display them natively. I don't know of any STBs that let you set it to "Output Source Format".


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *I don't know of any STBs that let you set it to "Output Source Format". *


 The Sony HD-200 and Zenith HD-SAT520 do (as I'd expect the Sony HD-300 and LG-branded version to also do): The native setting converts 480i signals to 480p and passes along 720p and 1080i signals directly to the display without conversion. The hybrid 1 and 2 settings are similar, but hybrid 1 converts all HD signals to 1080i, and hybrid 2 converts them to 720p. EZ DVI automatically detects the monitor type and converts all signals accordingly.

This is a valuable feature when you have a decent display. I have the Fujitsu P50 plasma display and it's absolutely annoying using it with the Echostar 6000 receiver where you have to switch manually between HD and SD output modes, and it only offers 720p or 1080i all-the-time choices for HD modes. I much more enjoy the behavior of the HD-SAT520. It provides easy access to all the advanced scaling features in the plasma that will only function on 480i and 480p signals.


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## rogo

Apopos of nothing, nearly every single plasma (every one?) on the market supports 1080i -- even if they are only a 480-line display.

Several plasmas cannot be fed 720p.

Plasma owners are not generally going to miss the "no native output" thing; neither are CRT owners really.

Neither is pretty much anyone really.

I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by rogo _
> *Apopos of nothing, nearly every single plasma (every one?) on the market supports 1080i -- even if they are only a 480-line display.
> 
> Several plasmas cannot be fed 720p.
> 
> Plasma owners are not generally going to miss the "no native output" thing; neither are CRT owners really.
> 
> Neither is pretty much anyone really.
> 
> I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it. *


 The two Hybrid modes solve that 720p-only or 1080i-only issue for those displays also supporting 480i/480p. Pseudo-native. 

I just would hate being stuck with some cheap scalar in the loop I'm force to use short of manually toggling a setting; I could live with discrete codes to select the setting, but toggles are terribly annoying to use.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by rogo _
> *I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it. *


I guarantee you if you sat two otherwise identical displays side by side, and had one showing a native 720p picture, while the other was displaying the same 720p source scaled to 1080i (much less 480p), the difference would be readily apparent. I just don't understand why more CRT sets don't include multi-scan capabilities. As I said earlier, if the cheapest CRT computer monitors can do multiscan, why not HD televisions? The lack of a "native resolution" is one of the advantages CRT has over other technologies, it seems that by the time television makers recognized this advantage, CRT sets will be extinct.  I can't help but wonder if that feature isn't purposely omitted to prevent CRTs from having an upper hand over their much more expensive (and probably more profitable) fixed pixel displays.


----------



## Squeak

> _Originally posted by smak _
> *Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.
> 
> -smak- *


But then where would you get your TiVo service from? Who would you pay for the TiVo service?

Since no new TiVo's work (PVR functionality) without service, I would assume that they would not allow the box to become merrily a OTA tuner (no PVR functionality).

And since this a DirecTV box, I would assume that you would not be able to pay TiVo directly for the SA TiVo service.

Because of that -- I am almost 100% positive that the box will only work if you are subscribed to DirecTV.


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## rogo

Darin, not arguing....What I'm saying is since most people's displays >>don't<< do native 720p and any reasonable 1080i (CRTs the latter; fixed pixels the former), most won't miss native output.


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## Todd76

Most consumers wouldn't understand a word of this conversation. And for that reason it's probably not a very important feature.


----------



## feldon23

In light of this article:
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layo...4136&pubdate=01/10/2004&display=searchResults

I've removed mention of Samsung.


----------



## feldon23

> _Todd76 said_
> *Most consumers wouldn't understand a word of this conversation. And for that reason it's probably not a very important feature.*


Only because nobody has been asked to write it in a format that is readable. Here's my shot at it, as a part-time technical writer:

Different HDTV models have different ways of producing a picture, using different technologies such as CRT, LCD, DLP, LCOS, or Plasma. There are 2 different HDTV formats/qualities, called 720p and 1080i.

ABC, ESPN, and (in the future) Fox use 720p.
CBS, NBC, HBO, and everyone else uses 1080i.

These produce roughly the same picture quality but have some Pros and Cons.

Some HDTVs are designed for 720p and use a converter to play back 1080i.
Some HDTVs are designed for 1080i and use a converter to play back 720p.
Most HDTVs are designed for 1080i and cannot play back a 720p signal without help from your satellite/cable receiver.
And a fortunate few HDTVs natively display both 720p and 1080i in the best possible way.

Fortunately, the DirecTV HD TiVo can handle all these situations.


----------



## MichaelK

i hope that in a few years someone comes up with a progressive scan monitor with 2160 lines. then there would need to be no scaler ever (or a real stupid one).

If it got a 720 signal then shot each line 3 times if it got a 1080 then show each line twice, bamm no interpolation just basic math. (of course some might argue that it should still interpolate but at least even then you know ever 2nd or 3rd line is correct. (480 eve divides into it by exactly 4 and a half times so thats not such a tough interpolation either).

This whole scan lines thing gives me a brain hurt. From what i saw shoping for my TV is that many sets dont even have 720 or 1080 lines to begin with so their "native resiloution" is in fact interpolated too. For example the butt kicker top of the line pioneer elite plasmas that their was a showcase on the other day- some of those use 7689 fixed pixels. What the hell is the sense in that? It is always making up data by adding 48 lines of guesses to 720 or throwing out data by deleting 312 lines of a 1080 signal. And i never saw an explanation so for all I know it throws all the incoming data in the blender and makes all 768 lines up and we never get to see what was originally transmitted.


----------



## mjones

Another good use for native output from an STB is the ability to have a specific device do the scaling.

For example, the Samsung HLN617w DLP set will accept both 720p and 1080i signals. The display is a 720p native display, but uses a Faroudja for signal conversion. That chipset is arguably one of the best available for signal conversion in the digital domain.

In my setup I have a Samsung SIRT165 STB which has a physical output selector switch for a single output resolution connected to my Samsung DLP. Nearly every HD program I watch is on CBS which broadcast a 1080i native signal. If I set the STB to output 720 (which most people would recommend because it is the native resolution of the display) CBS looks 'horrible' compared to the following alternative. Set the STB to output 1080i (native resolution of the broadcast) and let the DLP do the side-conversion to 720p via the Faroudja chipset, this method looks far superior.

The problem then works in reverse. With the STB in 1080i and watching ABC (720p native), the STB performs the conversion (from 720p to 1080i) then the TV converts it again (from 1080i back to 720p) and ABC also looks 'horrible.' 

Fortunately for me, I pretty much only watch CBS and NBC (1080i native) so I leave the STB set to 1080i letting my DLP side-convert to its native resolution of 720p. With the switch on the back of the STB, I almost never even bother watching 720p native shows.

Therefore, I would love to have native passthrough, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either (due to my viewing habbits)

Mike


----------



## rogo

I don't know if this was posted but hitting the Up Arrow on the peanut will cycle the resolutions for you; no menus required.

Mark


----------



## feldon23

In what mode?


----------



## BrettStah

My guess is that it would work while playing back anything live or pre-recorded. That would make the most sense. And shouldn't interfere with any menu operations that way. If that's the way it works, that'd be acceptable for my household... this way I could turn on a TV upstairs, flip to the channel of the HD-Tivo (from my channel modulation system), and if I don't see a picture I can just press the up arrow a few times. (Maybe after pressing Live TV first).


----------



## hongcho

We were just watching a recorded show I think.

Anyway, someone scanned the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet.

http://members.cox.net/technconsult/hdtivo/hdtivo.htm

Grab it while it's hot.

Hong.


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## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *In light of this article:
> http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layo...4136&pubdate=01/10/2004&display=searchResults
> 
> I've removed mention of Samsung. *


Interesting article. How will a consumer know who manufactures the box they are buying?


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## BrettStah

Consumers will be buying a DirecTV box. 99.9% won't care if the box was manufactured by Solitron in Mexico, etc. as long as it works.


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## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *Consumers will be buying a DirecTV box. 99.9% won't care if the box was manufactured by Solitron in Mexico, etc. as long as it works. *


This consumer will. I wonder if there will be a way to tell the difference.


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## rogo

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *In what mode? *


Anytime you are watching TV; live or recorded. It's in the latest iteration of the software. It does the courtesy of putting up a little on-screen indicator.

It's a "cycle" between the four resolutions; the DirecTV rep wasn't sure if there were hidden discrete codes that might be usable....


----------



## Rocket Surgeon

My first Sony DirecTV unit (circa 1997: cost $650) had a radio frequency (not IR) remote, which enabled me to hide the unit in a cabinet but still control channels. That was a great feature. Anyone know of any manufacturers that are planning to offer RF remotes with HD TiVo? The IR leapfrog systems just don't cut it. Too slow and not responsive all the time.


----------



## Darin

I have an older Sony receiver that will do RF too, and most Dish PVRs will do RF. Don't know why it hasn't caught on with TiVo. Believe it or not, I've actually heard good things about these remote extenders. Not as nice has having it built in to the unit, but apparently they work pretty well. I'm thinking of trying it out when they come out with a AAA version.


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *We were just watching a recorded show I think.
> 
> Anyway, someone scanned the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet.
> 
> http://members.cox.net/technconsult/hdtivo/hdtivo.htm
> 
> Grab it while it's hot.
> 
> Hong. *


Thanks, Hong.

I'm adding these to the FAQ and hosting them on my website to ensure availability.


----------



## GalenMD

> _From the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet:_
> *HDMI to DVI interface cable available for connecting DVI TVs and monitors.*


Does this mean that the interface is an additional accessory or included?

TiVo has often been good about including a variety of cables. I have seen them include S-video cables and digital cable STB conversion cables.

I was planning on buying such a cable now in anticipation of this bad-boy's arrival.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Cables included are one each of the following (in order of performance quality):

1. Coax w/Type "F" male connectors
2. RCA, Yellow/Red/White
3. "S" Video
4. Component video Pb, Pr, Y, Red/Green/Blue
5. HDMI to DVI
6. HDMI to HDMI

Plus 1 optical AC3 cable.


----------



## Alexander

Just to clarify, an HDMI->HDMI connection will have the exact same picture quality as a HDMI->DVI connection.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Well I think some more highly qualified members may correct me here, but here's what I've been told. HDMI carries several protocols that analyze the handshake to determine the best resolution to pass to the display based on the native resolution and the display capabilities. 

Of course, HDMI can also carry the DD audio signals.


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## feldon23

I've updated the FAQ again. Cleaned up the connections/formats info.


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## jkrell

Great job, man. I really appreciated the new/updated info!


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## MrBigglesworth

Noticed one error, you have the word easy where it should be east.

Also, does anyone know that since this unit is using a single 250GB Drive, would it then be capable of supporting an additional 250GB drive using the same upgrade methods we use now?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by MrBigglesworth _
> *Noticed one error, you have the word easy where it should be east.*


 feldon23 apparently has a subliminal fascination for "easy" things as noted earlier in this thread.


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## feldon23

Guess I never fixed it the first time.

For upgrades, we're not even sure if it has the ability. I know that 2 drives on a single IDE cable is not gonna work for HDTV. So if they only put one IDE or ATA connector, we're screwed.


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## BrettStah

So you think/know that there is not enough bandwidth on one IDE controller?


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## feldon23

Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.

If you look in the user manual for Plextor CD burners, it tells you this drive will not work properly past 8x if its on a shared cable.

I've got my hard drives each on their own ATA/133 cable, and my CD-RW and DVD-ROM each on their own cable.


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## MrBigglesworth

On my computer on the second channel I have a standard DVD Rom and on the slave of that I have a 40X LiteOn burner, never had a problem burning @ 40X either, but that may be due to the DVD Rom not being used at the time.


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## jautor

I seriously doubt the IDE bus would be an issue here. Even *IF* the HD-DirecTiVo was using the ancient UltraATA/33 specification, they should have sufficient bandwidth. I think it's likely that the box uses either UltraATA/66 or UltraATA/100. The HD-TiVo's worst case (I'm rounding) is 19.2Mb/s times 3 (2 record, 1 playback), plus some overhead. Still, that's only 7.2MB/s, compared to the burst rates available on the bus of 66MB/s or more. Bits vs. Bytes - big difference... 

Now, if the unit can get all of this data on and off a single drive, a two-drive system should be easier to keep up with. Since we're not adding bandwidth (you can still only do 3 HD streams max.), best case, you'll still be able to stream off of one of the drives while the other one is seeking to get the next track... 

Yes, yes, nothing is that simple, but remember also that TiVo's data access is probably very sequential (big files), so most of the time, the drive(s) is able to burst efficiently. And yes, they most certainly are using the DMA modes, since their architecture allows them to send data between the receiver (or encoder in the standalone TiVos) and the disk, or from disk to decoder, without that data travelling through the main CPU/memory. 

Feldon is right, though, we're not even sure it has the ability. But it's not the IDE bus to blame. Heck, it's probably not even an electrical issue. If anything, it'll be a software, thermal, or mechanical issue that prevents it... 

Jeff


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.
> 
> If you look in the user manual for Plextor CD burners, it tells you this drive will not work properly past 8x if its on a shared cable.
> 
> I've got my hard drives each on their own ATA/133 cable, and my CD-RW and DVD-ROM each on their own cable. *


 That's because when you're sharing a hard drive with a CD/DVD recorder, every increase in speed you get from a faster recorder also requires faster hard drive access. So (just making up numbers) if your recorder at 1x needs 1MB/second, then you're using 1MB/second for the recorder and 1MB/second for the hard drive to read the data to be recorded, or a total of 2MB/second. Then at 8x the recorder would need 8MB/second to handle the data it's writing, and it'd have to be reading it from the hard drive at 8MB/second too, for a total of 16MB/second over the IDE channel.

The DirecTV HD DVR is going to need XXmb/second of bandwidth to do it's writing and reading from the single hard drive. Adding another hard drive isn't going to require it read or write faster or more data, just from/to different locations.

There's no practical reason it couldn't perform properly with 2 hard drives on a shared IDE cable.


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## hongcho

2 HD recording + 1 HD reading... That's 3 x 19 Mbps, which is around 60 Mbps. Well, there will be seeks and other data access and stuff, so it may need to be a bit higher. But that seems within even the 5400 rpm disks.

Hong.


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## rogo

Right, 60 megabits / per second.... <8 megabytes / second.... Chump change for the bus.


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## Gromit

I hope I didn't overlook the answers in the FAQ or the rest of the thread, but I'm curious about the following:

I have a single LNB dish, a 2 x 4 switch and 2 DirecTiVo receivers.

DirecTV appears to offer a "SAT-C" upgrade kit for free, but doesn't that require an oval dual-LNB dish to begin with? I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace my round dish. What's the best option for doing that?

What switch will I need? Will the antenna for local channels run to my switch or directly to the HD-DirecTiVo? Would the switch be a 3 x 4? Could I use my current DirecTiVo box along with the new HD box? I'm guessing that would require a 3 x 6 switch and a lot of holes in the side of my house to allow those cables to get to the receivers.

antennaweb.org shows that I need a multi-directional, powered antenna (25 miles away). The map does show that signals would come from various directions, but the only channels I'm interested in all come from the same general compass area. Is it safe to assume that I could get away with a smaller, directional antenna or is that just a trial and error thing?

Thanks!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *I hope I didn't overlook the answers in the FAQ or the rest of the thread, but I'm curious about the following:
> 
> I have a single LNB dish, a 2 x 4 switch and 2 DirecTiVo receivers.
> 
> DirecTV appears to offer a "SAT-C" upgrade kit for free, but doesn't that require an oval dual-LNB dish to begin with? I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace my round dish. What's the best option for doing that?
> 
> What switch will I need? Will the antenna for local channels run to my switch or directly to the HD-DirecTiVo? Would the switch be a 3 x 4? Could I use my current DirecTiVo box along with the new HD box? I'm guessing that would require a 3 x 6 switch and a lot of holes in the side of my house to allow those cables to get to the receivers.
> 
> antennaweb.org shows that I need a multi-directional, powered antenna (25 miles away). The map does show that signals would come from various directions, but the only channels I'm interested in all come from the same general compass area. Is it safe to assume that I could get away with a smaller, directional antenna or is that just a trial and error thing?
> 
> Thanks! *


 You need the 3-LNB elliptical dish or the newer Phase III 3-LNB dish; DirecTV will provide that to you free or at low cost when you add HD to your configuration... just call and talk to them about it. They'll also deal with your multiswitch, including if you need more than 4 outputs. The multiswitch will be 4x4 or 4x8 or 5x4 or 5x8 (5 inputs including the 4 LNB signals and an over the air antenna). So if you've got a place inside for the multiswitch, you'll have 4 coax cables from the dish plus a coax cable from your antenna involved in coming into the house.

Receiving over-the-air really is an art more than a science and can be affected by surrounding terrain and buildings and trees, but if everything's within 25 miles, you should have a really good chance of getting that cluster of stations within the same general direction of just about any decent antenna. If all you need is UHF for the digital channels in your area, look at the Channel Master 4228 antenna... and possibly a preamp like the Channel Master 7777 or 7775; if you also need VHF, that's still a good antenna and you could add a compact VHF-only antenna to it. Nothing's really safe to assume; expect some trial and error involved in getting things positioned and aimed correctly. Having a rotator wouldn't be a bad idea since it'd let you experiment from the comfort of your living room.


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## Gromit

Thanks! I just checked and the stations I need are UHF only (no VHF). I guess that makes it a bit easier. I'll check out the Channel Master 4228. Ooops, NBC is VHF.

Is there a problem with having my switch outside? That just makes it easier to run the lines upstairs (2 story family room makes things difficult). I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like the OTA antenna signal can go to the switch or the receiver. I'll have to figure out which will be easier.

I think I'm going to be OK with the OTA signal strength, I just hope I can get away with putting the antenna in the attic vs on the roof.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *Thanks! I just checked and the stations I need are UHF only (no VHF). I guess that makes it a bit easier. I'll check out the Channel Master 4228.
> 
> Is there a problem with having my switch outside? That just makes it easier to run the lines upstairs (2 story family room makes things difficult). I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like the OTA antenna signal can go to the switch or the receiver. I'll have to figure out which will be easier.
> 
> I think I'm going to be OK with the OTA signal strength, I just hope I can get away with putting the antenna in the attic vs on the roof. *


 If you get an outdoor-rated powered multiswitch like the Terk BMS-58 5x8 unit, ~$100, no problem putting it outside, the antenna feeds into it, and every signal is amplified so you don't lose strength because of all the splitting, and it receives power over a separate coax cable from a transformer inside someplace. There are some powered multiswitches that are indoor-only so would need to be in a weatherproof enclosure if mounted outside. That gives you a little more flexibility to have the OTA antenna signals everywhere there's satellite signals, but if you need OTA only in one place, a direct wire run from the antenna is good, too.

As long as you've got only a single layer of standard shingles and obstructions in the signal path in your attic (like a firnace/air handler unit), an attic install will probably present no problems to receiving the stations you want. And the CM4228 is compact enough to fit in most attics, though you might need to pay attention to your attic access if the opening is small.


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## Gromit

Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too. 

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.


----------



## BrettStah

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit. *


Gromit, I tend to agree that a lot of people will not want to go through the hassles to receive OTA HD signals. DirecTV is going to probably have to start including that as part of HD installation deals (in parts of the country where it's possible to receive HD channels via antenna), or provide the locals via satellite, as you mentioned.


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## MikeSRC

Attached is another picture of the back of the unit:


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## llogan

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.
> 
> I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit. *


You could also get a yagi antenna, that has both UHF and VHF elements on it you can check out some of the different ones available at www.starkelectronic.com

and the whole antenna thing can be a total pain in the rear, I do installations on the side and it can be a real challenge in certain situations. Installing wiring for ethernet, phone, cable, satellite, etc. is just so much easier than dealing with an antenna but for some, like me, it's a necessary evil.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.
> 
> I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit. *


 The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to.


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## gfb107

I've been reading a lot here is the HD-TiVo section the last hew days, but have one question that I haven't seen addressed, or even asked. It may well be that we simply don't know the answer yet.

Will activation of the HD DTiVo require subscription to an HD programming package from DirecTV? Or can I use is it strictly with SD DirecTV and Digital OTA programming?

Essentially, can I get one without having to change my monthly subscription costs, other than add a mirroring fee? I fully expect to see a 12 month commitment to remain a DirecTV customer.


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## MCodanti

Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)

They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.


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## Gromit

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to. *


That will probably get it through the entrance to my attic (pull down stairs, standard size I suppose). Since I have to pull in 1 VHF channel too though, I'll check out the yagi that llogan mentioned.



> _Originally posted by MCodanti_
> *Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)
> 
> They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.*




I figured the HD package was a requirement to get the free dish upgrade. I'll need the dish but I figured HBO and the other HD channels will be worth it. I might even be able to sit through hockey on HDNet.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer

Subscription to DIRECTV's HD programming package is not required. 

In fact, you will get the following HD channels, HBO, SHOWTIME, *CBS and *FOX, at no additional charge, if you subscribe to the respective SD programming.

* CBS and *FOX HD channels are available in the 16 O&O markets only.


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## paulj

Sorry, I'm really confused. There are 3 satellites, 3 LNBs. I'm okay with this. I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs?



> You need the 3-LNB elliptical dish or the newer Phase III 3-LNB dish; DirecTV will provide that to you free or at low cost when you add HD to your configuration... just call and talk to them about it. They'll also deal with your multiswitch, including if you need more than 4 outputs. The multiswitch will be 4x4 or 4x8 or 5x4 or 5x8 (5 inputs including the 4 LNB signals and an over the air antenna). So if you've got a place inside for the multiswitch, you'll have 4 coax cables from the dish plus a coax cable from your antenna involved in coming into the house.


Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals?

Lastly, is there a simple tutorial on switches? Something I can read to help me make sense of the above quote?

paul


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## BrettStah

The Phase III 3-LNB dish has a built-in multiswitch, which outputs 4 cables. You can run those 4 outputs into a 4x8 multiswitch, which will give you enough outputs to support up to 4 DirecTivos if you'd like.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by paulj _
> *I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs? Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals*


Well, it doesn't really work quite like that. Technically, for each LNB, you need two cables, one for even transponders, and one for odd, because a single cable can't contain both at the same time (Except the Sat-C, or 110 LNB, which only has even transponders). BUT, because they only have a handful of transponders on 110 & 119, they "mix" the even transponders from 110 in with the 119 transponders. THATS why there's four cables: two for 101, and two for the mixed 110/119 signals. A cable can only carry one of the four "sets" of signals at one time, and that is the purpose of the multiswitch: To give each receiver the right set. So, with the four outputs from the Phase 3 dish, there are enough for each cable to be dedicated to one set, and the multiswitch connects each output to each receiver to the right input, depending on which set it requests.

The two inputs on the TiVo have nothing to do with any of this: for all intents and purposes, it is two separate DirecTV receivers (it has two tuners, to tune to two different channels at one time, even if they are on different satellites). Therefore, it needs two separate inputs from the multiswitch.


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## paulj

Many thanks Darin. My current dish has the switch built in so I had forgotten about all of this. Interesting that you pretty much HAVE to have a switch with a dish now.

paul


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## feldon23

A 3LNB dish sees the 3 satellites.

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.


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## feldon23

Ok, I've updated the FAQ. How's every 2 days? 

I've added my 3 sentence description of multiswitches above as well as 2 new HDTiVo-specific diagrams which should explain all permutations of 4xX and 2xX switches.


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## paulj

> The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.


Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??

paul


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## feldon23

Because for 2 TiVos, you need 4 inputs (tuners) which can each see either the even or odd side of the 101 satellite depending on what channel you're watching/recording?

You can't get all of the 101 satellite on 1 wire without stacking. The fact that you only need 101 odd and 101 even allows you to use a 2x4, 2x6, or 2x8 multiswitch (as diagrammed) to feed DirecTV TiVos.

For 101/110/119, you need a 4x? multiswitch.


----------



## jautor

> _Originally posted by paulj _
> *Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??*


*IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.

Jeff


----------



## Gromit

> _Originally posted by jautor _
> **IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.
> 
> Jeff *


That sounds good. I'll have 2 TiVos, so I guess I won't need another multiswitch.

Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo? If that's an option, I'll have to decide if I want to avoid drilling another hole in the side of my house and go the multi-switch option or just run the OTA directly into the house. My 2 story family room makes it difficult to run a line from the attic to the room through the walls. I pretty much have to go outside and into the family room via a drilled hole.


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## hdeditor

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus. *


Maybe the future for HDTV TiVo is Serial ATA?


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## jautor

> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo? *


There's a separate OTA input on the back of the unit. So worst case, you'd need an un-diplexor to separate the OTA signal from one of the sat lines. I've never personally used the diplexor solution, but from what I've read around here (and avsforum), they do work, but at the expense of some signal loss on the OTA side. If you've got strong OTA signals, that may not be an issue.

But in my mind, if you *can* run a separate line from the antenna, you should... Now, if that costs money, then I'd certainly try the diplexor route first.

Jeff


----------



## mercurial

To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display? Should have a unified hardware base so no problem with some models/hardware refreshes not having CID support in the modem... Kinda getting used to it again with the new Samsung SIR-TS160 that I got with the $99 HD TV deal- be nice if they brought it to TiVo finally.


----------



## Wayne Bundrick

Since digital OTA reception can be so hit-or-miss, the diplexor would be the first thing I'd take out of the equation if I couldn't get a signal.


----------



## BrettStah

> _Originally posted by mercurial _
> *To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display? *


 There is no Caller ID feature, from all reports I've seen (I haven't personally laid eyes on these boxes, but I've been trying to keep up). They could probably add in such a feature later on...


----------



## feldon23

For $900, you get a DirecTV receiver that, although it has TiVo, DD, and HDTV capabilities, it's actually a bare bones DirecTV platform.


----------



## o2manyfish

Perhaps a stupid question, but over the past years I keep noticing that the quality of DirectTV broadcasting keeps declining. So many stations that used to be supersharp seem to be fuzzed now that more stations have been added to the stream.

With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ?

Thanks,

Dave B


----------



## Skyboss

I just can't wait for 2006.

HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.

I live for that day... I really do... 

Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by o2manyfish _
> *With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ? *


For the relatively short term (next couple of years?), I think the PQ of HD is a fairly safe bet. DirecTV only gets in the neighborhood of 30-35Mbps per transponder, which is JUST enough to put two HD channels on. Doing three would be a big enough difference that I could not seeing them trying to push it that far. As HD becomes more "mainstream", and HD possibly grows into FSS transponders (which I _believe_ have 45-50Mpbs each), or maybe even the Ka band, then their flexibility to make incremental changes that they'd hope we wouldn't notice will increase. They are also getting new equipment that better allows them to mix SD & HD channels on one transponder. So in the long term, it probably just depends on how tight and valuable bandwidth is for them, as well as how marketable PQ becomes.

FWIW, even OTA HD faces the same concerns, as local stations start getting lured into using subchannels as a form of revenue, and reducing the bandwidth available to the HD stream. The only thing that will likely prevent this from happening is the demand for high quality being high enough that they can associate money with it.


----------



## feldon23

We're already seeing overcompression of HD locals as local affiliates crowd out the HD channel with digital versions of their analog channels and Doppler radar feeds.

These people don't realize that 19.2Mbps is the MINIMUM bandwidth for HDTV to not start breaking up and looking terrible. 19.2Mbps just happens to be what each ATSC channel has.

Without turning this into a rehash of dozens of topics with thousands of posts on the AVS HDTV Programming forum (I recommend heading there to learn more about HD programs), the 2002 Olympics were completely unwatchable in HD here in Houston. KTRK-13 had a subchannel of their analog feed which was enough to cause every sporting event from the Olympics to look like pixelated crap.

Fortunately I had access to an HDTV with the national HD cable variety channel 'HDNet' which was also responsible for getting HD coverage of the Olympics available to NBC in the first place (Along with Japan's NHK).


----------



## snooplives

> _Originally posted by Skyboss _
> *I just can't wait for 2006.
> 
> HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.
> 
> I live for that day... I really do...
> 
> Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me. *


Didn't Dtv just re-up with the NFL for exclusive rights to the Sunday Ticket through the end of the decade? They paid close to a billion dollars. I don't think you'll ever see the Sunday Ticket on Cable. Especially now that Murdoch owns Directv. He will overpay to keep it exclusively his.

Snooplives


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## Bigg

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> DirecTV enthusiasts have also been known to use 3 separate round dishes, each pointed at 101, 110, and 119 degree positions!


I know that if you have a dish @ 101 and a dish @ 119, you can use a 4x? multiswitch, but how do you do it with three dishes? You would have to combine SAT B and SAT C somehow. could you do this (twice) with a cable splitter b/c they are on different freqencies? How would you do this?


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## Darin

You HAVE to use a Sat-C LNB for the 110 dish, and you HAVE to use the Sat-C combiner that comes in the Sat-C kit.


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## Bigg

Ok, that makes sense. And then you go with SAT b/c and a into a 4x?. I get it.


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## feldon23

So you get 3 regular dishes and replace one of the LNBs with the one you get in the Sat-C kit since Sat C (110) is an entirely different type of signal.

Then you use the combiner to merge the 110 signals into one side of the 119 feed, and plug the 4 wires into the 4x4 multiswitch.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *So you get 3 regular dishes and replace one of the LNBs with the one you get in the Sat-C kit since Sat C (110) is an entirely different type of signal. *


 It's not as easy as that; the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB's; you couldn't just put it on a regular 18" dish LNB arm.


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## nabsltd

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *It's not as easy as that; the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB's*


Huh? It has different internals for shifting the frequencies so that it can be combined with the Sat-B signals, but the LNB housing is identical in size and shape.


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## feldon23

Nothing a little duct tape won't fix.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB's*


Is it really? If so, it's a pretty subtle difference, because I never even noticed it. I have a single 30" dish pointed at 101, and a Dish500 dish picking up 110 & 119. For the sake of this post, where I described making the Sat C kit fit on the Dish500, I took this picture to show the difference in the Dishnetwork LNB mount, and the SatC (warning, I never resized that picture, so it's huge). It _looks_ pretty similar to what I remember the regular DirecTV mounts to be. Of course, I lost my memory MANY years ago.


----------



## Street81

I just got TIVO 2 and I my cable company is going to start offering HD broadcasts. I have an HDTV so I can't wait.... The problem is the TIVO, I know it cant record HDTV but will the HD broadcast still work with the TIVO2 hooked up or do I have to unplug the TIVO. Any advice or insight would be Great!!


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *Is it really? If so, it's a pretty subtle difference, because I never even noticed it. I have a single 30" dish pointed at 101, and a Dish500 dish picking up 110 & 119. For the sake of this post, where I described making the Sat C kit fit on the Dish500, I took this picture to show the difference in the Dishnetwork LNB mount, and the SatC (warning, I never resized that picture, so it's huge). It looks pretty similar to what I remember the regular DirecTV mounts to be. Of course, I lost my memory MANY years ago.  *


 I may've been confusing myself... the SatC LNB is different, sitting 1/2" or so further away from the dish, though the LNB feedhorn looks like it might be placed identically. That's what I'd meant, though I originally had thought the feedhorn was slightly differently located as well -- not that the mounting shape was in any manner different.


----------



## nabsltd

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *I may've been confusing myself... the SatC LNB is different, sitting 1/2" or so further away from the dish, though the LNB feedhorn looks like it might be placed identically.*


I'd have to climb on the roof to be sure, but I think all 3 of mine (on an old 24" oval dish) are pretty close to "in line".

Any difference in positioning, though, is just to get it aligned into the right place to pick up the 110° satellite. On a single round dish, you can accomplish this by just moving the dish, as long as the LNB is at the focus of the dish.


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## llogan

the Sat C LNB mounts no differently from any other LNB, but dswallow is right that the actual LNB portion is just ever so slightly further from the dish

bottom line: doesn't affect your installation of a Sat C LNB on a regular dish at all.

If I weren't worried about aesthetics, I'd definitely go the route of having one dish for every bird.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by llogan _
> *If I weren't worried about aesthetics, I'd definitely go the route of having one dish for every bird. *


 I think I'd tend towards the Gainmaster myself. Bigger. More signal sucking capability.


----------



## nabsltd

He didn't say what *size* dish he would use for every satellite. 

I'm planning on using a 30" dish for each bird when I move to a new house farther out in the country.


----------



## Bigg

Hiw about a 48" for each?  LOL 
Street81: just plug them into a different inout in the TV or audio rec, and split the cable before it goes to the HD cable box and the TiVo.
EDIT:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Antennas DirecTV Dish&PROD=SKAUL120
along with another dish from someone else maybe...
DISHPHARM!!!!
EDIT2: the heck with the asthetics... the signal is all that matters... !!!


----------



## llogan

I want a dish I can sit in and that I can rotate via remote (visions of laying out in the sun on my dish...and adjusting tilt as the sun moves....

hmm wonder if my skull would act to focus the signal....brain cancer?


----------



## Bigg

LOL Some bad sunburn... LOL


----------



## Marty M

I'd like to thank Feldon23 for the great FAQ and pose several additional questions that I couldn't find answers for. Any responses are greatly appreciated. 

I am currently an HD DISH customer and am seriously considering dumping DISH and my investment in that equipment and switching to HDTV TiVo. (Just read the review of the 921 on Satellite Guys -- bear in mind that these folks try to give DISH every possible break.)

(1) Will the HD-DVR250 include a signal strength meter for HD OTA? That is very important in terms of accurate aiming of an antenna for OTA reception. The DISH 6000 includes one that is easily accessed with one push of the "view" button ; the new DISH 921 does not and has been harshly criticized for the omission.

(2) I'll rountinely copy programs from the HD-DVR250 to a Pioneer Elite DVD-R. The Pioneer only has an S-Video or composite input at 480i -- which would be typical of most recording devices or a VCR. 

(a) Am I correct in my understanding that an HD 1080i recorded broadcast can be quickly switched to 480i SD for archival recording to a DVD-R or VCR via a button on the front of the HD-DVR250 or the remote?

(b) I assumed that the HD-DVR250 either would output a standard signal (480i) via all three outputs simultaneously or would act like the DISH 6000 which automatically switches HD to component and SD to S-Video/Composite.

Or do you have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time?

If so, that would be INCREDIBLY DUMB and close to a fatal flaw in the product. Many people will use the TiVO unit to routinely transfer SD to a VCR or DVD-R to archive programs. I do it all the time -- would I have to go into the setup each and every time and change the outputs? And then go back into setup to change them back every time I watch an HD program?

(3) What is the smallest external mast diameter that the Phase III dish can be mounted on when it is screwed down?

(4) If I buy the HD-DVR250 and two standard receivers -- would the switch that comes with the Phase III dish be enough? For both the HD and two standard receivers to receive all possible channels? 

(5) In addition to the HD-DVR250 I planned on buying the Huges Executive Director HAH-SA. The manual is rather confusing -- can it take only 27 total favorite channels or is it 27 x 3 for a total of 81 favorite channels?


----------



## Perrin

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Fortunately every HDTV Set-Top Box on the market lets you pick the output resolution and converts between them. Very few HDTVs can handle 720p natively and many Plasmas can't handle 1080i so this is the perfect solution.
> *


I just got Cox HDTV service, and the set top box they gave me doesn't allow me to pick output resolutions. The setup menu only lets me set up preferences...favorite channels that sort of thing. 
I can't even figure out what model box this is. All I can tell is its a Motorola...no model number anywhere on the silver box.

Makes me wonder if that's why ABC shows don't look nearly as good as CBS shows.


----------



## vonzoog

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *What HDTV-enabled TiVo models will be available?
> 
> It is not known what other recording capabilities this TiVo will have or whether tuners can be active simultaneously. At this time, there is no indication that this TiVo will be compatible with any HDTV signals provided by cable TV providers in the US. This may change before product launch in light of QAM256 and OpenCable technologies.
> 
> I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?
> 
> And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.
> 
> Thanks,*


----------



## llogan

what are you smokin? I don't see any way that the OTA input would work to allow you to record the cable HD feed. NO WAY, NO HOW, nuh-uh

I can always be wrong but I really don't think so...


----------



## hongcho

There are many ways to send a signal. QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation) is one used by cable companies, and 8VSB (vestigial side band) is one used by ATSC for OTA. The satellites use something else. You can compare with radios (AM and FM).

The HD Tivo can decode signals encoded with 8VSB (for OTA) and sattelite. It would not know what to do with QAM signals.

Also, most cable signals are encrypted QAM signals, which means that most generic QAM tuner won't work.

Hong.


----------



## BrettStah

> _Originally posted by vonzoog _
> *[I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?
> 
> And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.
> 
> Thanks, *


 Did you miss the heading right above the section you quoted that says "Standalone HD TiVo -- in development"? It specifically does NOT refer to the DirecTV/Tivo model, which is described in a different section.


----------



## vonzoog

Hong,

Thanks for the explanation. That clears things up for me.

I guess I will go have a smoke now on llogan .


----------



## Hootydog

*"DirecTV HD TiVos come with a High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP). A cable is included for TVs with HDCP-compliant DVI inputs."*

Looking for some good news, pretty please.

It seems I took a different route than some here. I geared up with HD before TIVO via the Samsung TS-160 for OTA and Directv's offerings in 2002. As much as I know I'll love TIVO, (own stock in it but no products) I've been waiting for the HD version to come out before jumping in.

Now I'm not sure I'll be able to take advantage to record my beloved HD.

I have an "older" Mitsubishi WS-55819 made in January 2002. It does not have DVI, HDMI or HDCP. I had read before that would not be a problem to take advantage of the new DirecTV HD-Tivo. I believed I would be able to use my 3 component inputs to my Mits.

Now I'm not so sure. Will the HD-Tivo work without 1) a new TV with digital video connections @ 3k+, 2) the Mits promise module @1k, or 3) some kinda $800+ adapter / converter.

Please tell me there will be a simple hook up to get me HD-Tivo. 

Chappy


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Hootydog _
> *Please tell me there will be a simple hook up to get me HD-Tivo.  *


 The DirecTV HD DVR has component output, too.


----------



## Hootydog

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *The DirecTV HD DVR has component output, too. *


 So no worries for me then? , cpt maybe future copy right protection issues?.. or am I safe there too as long as I output only to my in house display(s).

Chappy


----------



## jautor

> _Originally posted by Hootydog _
> *So no worries for me then? , cpt maybe future copy right protection issues?.. or am I safe there too as long as I output only to my in house display(s).
> 
> Chappy *


You're fine... IIRC, HD component outputs are not affected by any of the copyright protection issues - they were specifically called out because of all the HDTV sets like yours already in the field. So you should always be able to watch HD on the component out...

Jeff


----------



## Hootydog

So I can order the Hughes Direct TV TIVO HD-DVR and anticipate it to work fine with my set up?

...besides, of course, the issues raised in this thread (which I don't think I'll suffer from), and any "normal" early adapter yet-to-be-identified glitches.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Hootydog _
> *So I can order the Hughes Direct TV TIVO HD-DVR and anticipate it to work fine with my set up?
> 
> ...besides, of course, the issues raised in this thread (which I don't think I'll suffer from), and any "normal" early adapter yet-to-be-identified glitches.  *


 Yes. It will work with your display.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by jautor _
> *You're fine... IIRC, HD component outputs are not affected by any of the copyright protection issues...*


I think TECHNICALLY (legally), that is only true of the OTA stations, and possibly basic channels (??). I haven't kept up with everything, but I THINK they can downrez the output of non-protected outputs IF it's premium content (like PPVs, HBO, etc.). Whether or not they'll actually take advantage of that, is yet to be seen.


----------



## Marty M

ANY RESPONSES WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

(1) Will the HD-DVR250 include a signal strength meter for HD OTA? 

(2) I'll rountinely copy programs from the HD-DVR250 to a Pioneer Elite DVD-R. The Pioneer only has an S-Video or composite input at 480i -- which would be typical of most recording devices or a VCR.

My understanding is that you can easily switch from standard definition to high definition with the remote or the front of the unit itself.

But what happens to the connections on the back? 

Does the unit switch automatically from HD component to SD S-video or composite?

Robert with Value Electronics says it does. 

However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite. 

This is an IMPORTANT ISSUE for anyone who plans on transferring and archiving recordings to a VCR or a DVD-R.

If Feldon is right, we'll have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time that we want to archive to a VCR.

And then have to go into setup and switch back in order to watch HD.

This would be a real pain in the b*** if Feldon is right. And is a really dumb design. I already have a stand-alone TIVO and rountinely archive recordings -- as I'm sure is true of many of the forum participants.

Can anyone who has seen the unit or a manual comment on how it works?


----------



## rogo

"...but I THINK they can downrez the output of non-protected outputs IF it's premium content"

Not really. In fact, everyone agreed this wouldn't happen in the cable deal. Now there is an out. If somehow, Hollywood railroads Dish and/or DirecTV, then cable TV can down-rez the component. 

Chances of this happening? I'd say essentially zero.

Mark


----------



## rogo

Oh, and if Feldon really did say that, I'm fairly certain he is wrong.

It has been established that if the HD out is set for 480i, you'll get simultaneous output over composite and S-video.

To switch from component to HDMI, now that might well require a trip to the setup... But that doesn't affect the issue above.


----------



## MCodanti

> _Originally posted by Marty M _
> *My understanding is that you can easily switch from standard definition to high definition with the remote or the front of the unit itself.
> 
> But what happens to the connections on the back?
> 
> Does the unit switch automatically from HD component to SD S-video or composite?
> 
> Robert with Value Electronics says it does.
> 
> However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite.
> *


This has been gone over in many other threads.. TiVoPony (works for TiVo) says that when you select 480i it will output S-Video, Composite, and then either Component or HDMI based on your menu selection.


----------



## Hootydog

A little late but thank you for your timely and reassuring answers. Sounds like I'll be good to go as soon as March rolls around. :up: 

Great thread, and forum you have. Unlike some I visit, (most) all here seem very friendly and helpful even to dense newbies like me. Personally, I have no use for trolls and personal attacks so prevalent elsewhere. 

Keeping it light with opinions encouraged and BS not tolerated encourages people to keep coming back IMHO.

I look forward to continuing to track the progress of the release of HD Tivo with all your help.


Keep up the great work.


 Chappy


----------



## feldon23

> Marty M said:
> *do you have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time?*


The FAQ could be clearer on this. When the TiVo is in 480i mode, then the S-Video and Composite outputs become active. No need to switch with the remote or button on the unit.



> Marty M said:
> *(3) What is the smallest external mast diameter that the Phase III dish can be mounted on when it is screwed down?*


This is a general DirecTV question so I'll leave that to the DTV forum.



> Marty M said:
> *(4) If I buy the HD-DVR250 and two standard receivers -- would the switch that comes with the Phase III dish be enough? For both the HD and two standard receivers to receive all possible channels? *


The diagram in the FAQ answers this.



> Marty M said:
> *(5) In addition to the HD-DVR250 I planned on buying the Huges Executive Director HAH-SA. The manual is rather confusing -- can it take only 27 total favorite channels or is it 27 x 3 for a total of 81 favorite channels?*


Not an HD TiVo question.



> Marty M said:
> *However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite. *


I was going based on early preliminary information. That info has since been updated. I will update the FAQ.



> vonzoog said:
> *I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?*


Sure, this will work for South Chicago and nowhere else on earth. South Chicago has the only cable service in the USA that carries their local channels in HD "free and clear" as an 8VSB signal.



> vonzoog said:
> *And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.*


QAM is the standard encoding standard for 90% of cable systems in the USA. In all but a few markets, this is encrypted QAM so even if there was an HDTiVo that spoke QAM, it wouldn't have the keys/passwords neccesary to record or play this material in most markets.


----------



## Marty M

Thanks very much to Feldon and MCodanti for responding to my questions. It is greatly appreciated. 

My apologies if I posed a question covered in previous threads -- I wouldn't have asked if I had seen those other threads. I only saw the previous thread/response by Feldon that I referenced -- why is why I asked. It is an important issue -- at least for me.

Thanks again. I will dump DISH in March and switch to HD TiVo.


----------



## Jacquelyn

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *The FAQ could be clearer on this. When the TiVo is in 480i mode, then the S-Video and Composite outputs become active. No need to switch with the remote or button on the unit.*


Will the 480i signal also be sent via the component output? I know this has been discussed but I'm still not clear (and info seems to still be coming in).


----------



## feldon23

480i is always output on S-Video, Composite, and the HDTV output you've chosen.

So either:
*S-Video, Composite, Component*
or:
*S-Video, Composite, HDMI (DVI with adapter)*


----------



## Jacquelyn

Whole House Video Issue:

Well that seems to solve 95% of my initial whole house video issues. 

With the limited drive size of the stock HD Tivo, our other DirecTiVos and our travel schedule - what we record on that Tivo will be "sit down and watch" programs rather than the "walk around the house" variety. With the exception of visiting the kitchen/bar which has the 2nd plasma.

I bought a component video and digital audio selector with two outputs so that took care of seeing HDTV programming on the two plasma screens via component. 

Then on the few instances where one of us wanted to finish watching a program in another room, the one watching the plasma would just have to watch the 480 signal.

Not a perfect solution and one I hope gets addressed in the next version, but workable for now.


----------



## oleus

i currently have two dual tuner directivos and one RCA DTC100 HD dtv receiver inside my tv. this comes from the dual arm lnb with sat C and a multiswitch outside.

will i be able to utilize all the recording capacities of the hdtivo? my two directivos see all the channels except the the HD satellite, while my HD receiver gets everything. but i'm guessing with my current setup i won't be able to use dual-tuners to record two HD channels at once, will I, unless one of them is OTA.

since the new HD Tivo will be replacing one of my current directivos (and making my DTC100 obsolete)...i'm windering if i can change my multiswitch wiring?

thanks...i know this may sound confusing.


----------



## hongcho

With your current setting, you won't be able to record ANY HD channels.

With an HD Tivo, you will be able to record ANY TWO (2) channels whether they are on OTA, SAT or one on each.

When you replace both the dual-tuner DirecTivos and the HD receiver (3 satellite cables and possibly one OTA cable) with an HD Tivo (2 satellite cables + 1 OTA cable), you will have one satellite cable unused, and don't need to touch the multiswitch.

I hope I got that right.

Hong.


----------



## llogan

Everything you wrote Hong is spot on. One minor consideration, I'm unsure about what type of multiswitch he has and whether or not he'll be putting up an antenna. If he puts up an antenna and the multiswitch supports bridging the OTA signal then it might change things for him a little.

Basically, from an HD satellite perspective, Hong's totally right and nothing changes.

I'd personally recommend running a line from the antenna directly to the HD Tivo for OTA. But he may choose to input it into the multiswitch if his multiswitch is capable, which it may not be.


----------



## oleus

alright ....i'm a litte confused about something here. maybe i wasn't clear about my current setup.

if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?

as it stand now i use two different directv receivers in the room i have my HDTV in. one is inside my tv that I use mainly for HD (but i get all the channels) and then the dual tuner Directivo for recording.

you see, i am planning on not using the DirectV HD receiver inside my TV when i get an HD Directivo and also replacing the old directivo with this new unit.


----------



## bigpuma

> _Originally posted by oleus _
> *
> if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?
> *


You would, although you would only run 2 of the 3 DirecTV lines into the HD Directivo plus 1 OTA line (split into 2 by the HD directivo).


----------



## oleus

well, i also seem to remember that my directv installer said that 1 (mayhe 2) of my directivo inputs had access to the HD satellite just because of the way the multiswitch works

i guess i need to figure out which of my tuners has access to NASA tv, because that means that input would have HD access, right? they're still on the same bird as the DirecTV HD, right?


----------



## hongcho

> well, i also seem to remember that my directv installer said that 1 (mayhe 2) of my directivo inputs had access to the HD satellite just because of the way the multiswitch works

Your DirecTV tuner (be it an SD recever, an HD receiver, or an SD Tivo) can "see" any signals on any transponder from three satellites (if you have all three LNBs, that is).

It's just that only an HD receiver will know what to do with an HD DirecTV channel (e.g., HDNet, HBO-HD, etc.).

> if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?

Currently, you have

- One (1) sat cable to DTC100.
- One (1) OTA cable to DTC100.
- Two (2) sat cables to SD DirecTivo.

Correct? With this set-up, as I said above, the SD DirecTivo won't know what to do with HD channels, such as HDNet. So, you are not able to record HD channels. You can record HBO, but you are not able to record HBOHD on 509.

If you intend to keep your SD DirecTivo with the new HD DirecTivo, you are short of one sat cable since an HD DirecTivo needs two (2) sat cables. However, if you get rid of the SD DirecTivo, you will have one (1) sat cable left over.

And only with an HD DirecTivo, you will be able to record HD channels.

Is this any clearer, or am I confusing you even further?

Hong.


----------



## tach32000

I have no HD equiptment at the moment, but I am looking.

I called DirectTv and was told that with and HD receiver and dish, I could view HD programming off of my network feeds, ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX if the show that the network was broadcasting was in HD.

Is this correct?

Thanks,
Brian


----------



## oleus

hongcho -

this is my exact setup :

i have 5 lines coming into my house. 2 pairs of 2 for the two directivos, and one for my HD receiver (that line sees all 3 birds - the 4 directivo lines do not , although i think 1 of the 4 does because of teh way my multisiwtch is routed). I plan on dumping the downstairs SD Directivo for the HD Tivo (i also plan on not using the DTC100 anymore)...so that would be 3 feeds (1 HD) available for the HD Tivo, right? (and a 4th from my OTA antenna)...

by my calculations i'll have full dual tuner SD recording with the HD Tivo, plsu 1 tuner of DirectV HD and OTA. is this correct?

i know that the regular SD Directivos can't record HD...i was actually asking about the upcoming HD Tivos and my setup.

my main concern is whether i'll need a new multiswitch. i know my current setup won't allow for simultaneous recording of 2 DirectV HD channels...but i am willing to live with that since i can record OTA simultaneously.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by tach32000 _
> *I have no HD equiptment at the moment, but I am looking.
> 
> I called DirectTv and was told that with and HD receiver and dish, I could view HD programming off of my network feeds, ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX if the show that the network was broadcasting was in HD.
> 
> Is this correct?*


 Only if you also connected an antenna to it and you had local stations broadcasting a digital signal in your area -- and what you see isn't limited to HD broadcasts.

Friday, CBS-HD will be available on DirecTV by satellite, but only to a subset of people -- generally those in areas served by CBS-owned&operated stations.


----------



## tach32000

Thank you for replying, and I apologize for asking this another way....

Right now with with the 119 dish and HD receiver and my DNS (CBS, ABC, etc)
When a program says "broadcast in HD where available"

Will I get that signal in HD from DirectTv?

Thanks,
Brian


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by tach32000 _
> *Thank you for replying, and I apologize for asking this another way....
> 
> Right now with with the 119 dish and HD receiver and my DNS (CBS, ABC, etc)
> When a program says "broadcast in HD where available"
> 
> Will I get that signal in HD from DirectTv?*


 No. DirecTV does not provide HD locals anywhere (except what I mentioned about CBS-HD beginning Friday). All locals are just their standard SD/NTSC signal.

The only way to get them with the DirecTV receiver is to use an antenna to receive a local digital station broadcasting HD programming.

All DirecTV HD receivers include the ability to receive local programming over-the-air with an antenna.


----------



## oleus

is there a list of these areas where CBS-HD will be available to DirecTV customers?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by oleus _
> *is there a list of these areas where CBS-HD will be available to DirecTV customers? *


 The 17 markets served by CBS O&O stations are: Austin, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, Marquette, Miami, Minneapolis, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Green Bay.

Except for Los Angeles and New York area subscribers, you *won't* qualify to receive CBS-HD if there's a non-owned&operated CBS station that also claims you as a viewer.


----------



## hongcho

So, the setup is a bit more complicated than necessary. 



> _Originally posted by oleus _
> *i have 5 lines coming into my house. 2 pairs of 2 for the two directivos, and one for my HD receiver (that line sees all 3 birds - the 4 directivo lines do not , although i think 1 of the 4 does because of teh way my multisiwtch is routed). I plan on dumping the downstairs SD Directivo for the HD Tivo (i also plan on not using the DTC100 anymore)...so that would be 3 feeds (1 HD) available for the HD Tivo, right? (and a 4th from my OTA antenna)...
> 
> by my calculations i'll have full dual tuner SD recording with the HD Tivo, plsu 1 tuner of DirectV HD and OTA. is this correct?*


Before:

- 2 sat cables (don't see all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #1.
- 2 sat cables (only one sees all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #2.
- 1 sat cable (sees all sat's) to DTC100.
- 1 OTA cable to DTC100.

After dumping one SD DirecTivo (#2) and DTC100:

- 2 sat cables (don't see all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #1.
- 2 sat cables (sees all sat's, one from SD DirecTivo #2 and the other from HTC100) to HD DirecTivo.
- 1 OTA cable to HD DirecTivo.
- 1 sat cable (don't see all sat's from SD DirecTivo #2) to nothing.

This will make you happy, I think.

Hong.


----------



## oleus

great - sounds good. so it sounds like i might actually be able to dual-record directv HD with my current wiring. i'll just have a leftover feed coming into my house that won't be used. i'll also have to figure out which of my 4 current tivo feeds sees NASA to figure out which one is seeing all 3 birds. i sure hope it's one that's downstairs 

can't wait for april!

any word on the price tiers? i heard there was a cheaper $600 model with less recording space - is this true?

thanks for the help guys.


----------



## hongcho

> i heard there was a cheaper $600 model with less recording space - is this true?

All rumors (that included Samsung as another HD DirecTivo manufacturer).

Hong.


----------



## TimGoodwin

Don't know if this was answered yet but any word on a OTA signal strength meter?


----------



## gregggreg

I've searched through this thread and this forum trying to find an answer to this exact question and haven't found it. I apologize in advance if this has been answered already.

I have pretty much the most simple DTivo setup currently. I have one round 18" dual LNB dish on my roof. Two lines come down my house and into my one DTivo with dual tuners. That's it. 

I am thinking of going HD once the HD DTivo comes out. Right now I am just thinking about replacing my current DTivo with the HD DTivo.

Here are my assumptions so far from trying to grok all of the vast amounts of wonderful data in this forum: 

1) I have to get a new oval sat dish to replace my current round 18" dish
2) I can run two lines (the same two I already have running from the current dish to my living room) from a 4x4 multiswitch (built into the dish?) to new HD Dtivo in my living room, therefore not having to run any new lines.

Are these assumptions correct? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to replace my current dish with a new dish and I am trying to avoid having to run more lines from my roof to my living room here. I've seen many posts similar to this, but most mention many lines, multiple receivers, multiswitches, and much more complicated setups than that I have.

Thanks for the insight you can provide.

-Greg


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by gregggreg _
> *I've searched through this thread and this forum trying to find an answer to this exact question and haven't found it. I apologize in advance if this has been answered already.
> 
> I have pretty much the most simple DTivo setup currently. I have one round 18" dual LNB dish on my roof. Two lines come down my house and into my one DTivo with dual tuners. That's it.
> 
> I am thinking of going HD once the HD DTivo comes out. Right now I am just thinking about replacing my current DTivo with the HD DTivo.
> 
> Here are my assumptions so far from trying to grok all of the vast amounts of wonderful data in this forum:
> 
> 1) I have to get a new oval sat dish to replace my current round 18" dish
> 2) I can run two lines (the same two I already have running from the current dish to my living room) from a 4x4 multiswitch (built into the dish?) to new HD Dtivo in my living room, therefore not having to run any new lines.
> 
> Are these assumptions correct? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to replace my current dish with a new dish and I am trying to avoid having to run more lines from my roof to my living room here. I've seen many posts similar to this, but most mention many lines, multiple receivers, multiswitches, and much more complicated setups than that I have.*


 Yes, that's all you need to do... replace the dish; the Phase III 3-LNB dish has a multiswitch built-in, and you'll just move the coax lines going into your house over to the new dish, then just hook up the DirecTV HD DVR in place of the DirecTV DVR you're using now.


----------



## gimp

Thanks to this thread I was able to preorder the new HD DirecTiVo. I've read that D* may require an additional year of programming commitment when existing customers (like me) activate new equipment. Will the same be true of my new HD DirecTiVo (when I get it)? I don't have a problem with it, but seems like we should get something in exchange for an additional year of commitment (other than getting activated). I've already got a triple-LNB, HD D* box, etc.


----------



## Bigg

you could also use 3 dishes, but it is not worth it unless you have to use 3 dishes to get a decent signal.


----------



## llogan

All of your statements are correct, are you going to hook an antenna up to your HDTivo? If so, it'll be a little different.


----------



## jdk

> _Originally posted by gimp _
> *Thanks to this thread I was able to preorder the new HD DirecTiVo. I've read that D* may require an additional year of programming commitment when existing customers (like me) activate new equipment. Will the same be true of my new HD DirecTiVo (when I get it)? I don't have a problem with it, but seems like we should get something in exchange for an additional year of commitment (other than getting activated). I've already got a triple-LNB, HD D* box, etc. *


Good question - I've been wondering this too, so I'm going to ask it in a new thread to see if we can get a complete answer...


----------



## need_help_plz

nevermind


----------



## duffin

I tried reading the whole thread, but does anyone know the contract manufacturer for this box? I'm sure it is not a Hughes plant.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by duffin _
> *I tried reading the whole thread, but does anyone know the contract manufacturer for this box? I'm sure it is not a Hughes plant. *


 Solectron.


----------



## paulj

> Solectron.


Any idea which plant? Guadalajara?

paul


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by paulj _
> *Any idea which plant? Guadalajara? *


 All I've ever seen is "Mexico"... do they have more than one plant in Mexico?


----------



## paulj

> All I've ever seen is "Mexico"... do they have more than one plant in Mexico?


 I don't believe so. I guess I know where to go to get an early pickup!

paul


----------



## gregggreg

> _Originally posted by llogan _
> *All of your statements are correct, are you going to hook an antenna up to your HDTivo? If so, it'll be a little different. *


I might hook up an anntena eventually. How does that change it? Does the anntena have to be on the roof? I live in San Francisco proper and I *almost* have line of sight to Sutro Tower where almost all of the HD channels are broadcast from (about 2 miles away). If I have to put an anntena on the roof and run another line from there to get OTA HD, I might just skip it. I don't watch much major network TV anyway. HD PBS would be cool though.


----------



## MitsHD

Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up. I'm in a mid-rise condo, and the building system is set up so that the HD satellite feed and the rooftop OTA antenna come in on the same coax.

I feed that into the "satellite" input on my Hughes HIRD E-86, and then select "Local in 2" on the local menu, and that works fine -- no splitter required on the back, as the Hughes splits out the OTA internally.

Does anyone know if the new unit will work the same way, or if I'll need a splitter? I know I may miss the dual tuner feature for the satellite feed, but I would like to have it for the OTA feed.

Any insight anyone has on this would be helpful as I think about configuration.


----------



## bigpuma

> _Originally posted by gregggreg _
> *I might hook up an anntena eventually. How does that change it? Does the anntena have to be on the roof? I live in San Francisco proper and I *almost* have line of sight to Sutro Tower where almost all of the HD channels are broadcast from (about 2 miles away). If I have to put an anntena on the roof and run another line from there to get OTA HD, I might just skip it. I don't watch much major network TV anyway. HD PBS would be cool though. *


Being that close I would think you could use rabbit ears and get reception. I hear the Zenith silver sensor is a really good indoor antenna that would definatley work for you. The only thing is I doubt you would get NBC 11 since it is now in San Jose.


----------



## duffin

> _Originally posted by paulj _
> *I don't believe so. I guess I know where to go to get an early pickup!
> 
> paul *


I've placed work with Solectron in the past and their MO is to ramp in Mexico to get it right, then go to higher quantity runs in Asia. On the other hand, plants actually compete for projects, so manufacturing over the long-term may stay in Mexico if they can compete at the higher volumes.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up. I'm in a mid-rise condo, and the building system is set up so that the HD satellite feed and the rooftop OTA antenna come in on the same coax.
> 
> I feed that into the "satellite" input on my Hughes HIRD E-86, and then select "Local in 2" on the local menu, and that works fine -- no splitter required on the back, as the Hughes splits out the OTA internally.
> 
> Does anyone know if the new unit will work the same way, or if I'll need a splitter? I know I may miss the dual tuner feature for the satellite feed, but I would like to have it for the OTA feed.
> 
> Any insight anyone has on this would be helpful as I think about configuration. *


The HD-DVR250 has a separate coax input for the off-air signal, so you will need your di-plexer to separate the signals.

Good news is the HD-DVR250 splits the OTA signal to support the dual OTA ATSC tuners.


----------



## duffin

Most likely Guadalajara


----------



## Joe Smith

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up.*


If you can tune to the UPN station by going to Channel 44, then tuning to Channel 45 will not be a problem. The OTA HDTV tuners use the ordinary over-the-air VHF and UHF frequencies.

I live in Fremont and am able to get all the OTA digital channels from SF on a 9-inch diameter UHF antenna. I get the San Jose NBC channel via rabbit ears.

KTVU SD=2 HD=56
KRON SD=4 HD=57
KPIX SD=5 HD=29
KGO SD=7 HD=24
KQED SD=9 HD=30
KNTV SD=11 HD=12
KBWB SD=20 HD=19
KICU SD=36 HD=52
KBHK SD=44 HD=45


----------



## Skyboss

Of course the final question on an OpenCable TiVo box. Since cable co's are the primary members, as are Motorola and SA. One has to wonder if they will shut TiVo out...At least in the short term to get a head start.


----------



## feldon23

With OpenCable, TiVo has a chance, but Motorola and Scientific Atlanta have head starts and their flimsy boxes are being given away for free/cheap.


----------



## hallerbach

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals. *


Is there any kind of workaround for this (other than a VCR)? What about future plans to convert the analog signals to a format that the PVR can record? Is this technically feasible?

the problem for me is that I am in a market (Reno, NV) that has no plans to offer networks over direct TV (at least not in 2004).

Thanks.


----------



## feldon23

This is the HDTV TiVo forum. I assume you want to get your local channels in HDTV?

Enter you ZIP code here and click on the colors to see what size antenna you need. Then look at the beginning of this FAQ. If you are in a house, you can put a rooftop or attic-mounted Channel Master and get good recption for ~$50.

http://www.antennaweb.org/

By the way, Reno, NV analog locals will be available from DirecTV in April 2004. A 3LNB dish will be required, which I'd assume you will already have installed to get DirecTV's HDTV offerings!.


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## emunro

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals. *


For $1,000 I would expect an encoder. Anything less is cheap, lazy, narrow-minded, and discourages market share.

The competition will deliver the no-brainer features and TiVo will suffer. We need encoders on DTiVo boxes and video extraction to stay loyal to the TiVo products.


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## feldon23

Sorry but you're full of crap. They cannot deliver an HDTiVo for $1,000 with an encoder and why the hell would anyone who wants to watch fuzzy crappy analog channels buy a $1,000 HDTV TiVo?


----------



## emunro

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Sorry but you're full of crap. They cannot deliver an HDTiVo for $1,000 with an encoder and why the hell would anyone who wants to watch fuzzy crappy analog channels buy a $1,000 HDTV TiVo? *


I assure you that I am very sincere. It's called an all-in-one box. Some programming is only available on cable and/or analog OTA. Why force me to use a VCR or purchase a standalone unit to record the shows I want to watch? If given the choice, I would purchase the product that I found most useful. The tuners are already there, they just need to add an encoder chip.


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## hongcho

It's just that an HD MPEG-2 encoder isn't cheap. A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder seems to be by itself, at least, more than $1000. And with two tuners, you need two encoders.

Hong.


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## hongcho

I guess you wouldn't need an HD encoder for those cable channels. But still, it would have added at least a couple of hundred dollars more.

Also, that would have made their system quite more complex and would have delayed the product even further (not to mention the costs). I think this is a very good first HD product.

Hong.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by emunro _
> *The tuners are already there, they just need to add an encoder chip. *


If I'm not mistaken, the tuners are NOT already there. The only tuners it has are satellite tuners and ATSC tuners. Not analog NTSC tuners. If you are saying you want a product that is like the HD-Tivo and SD standalone combined (add an *SD* tuner and encoder), then the cost add would probably be similar to the differential price between a stand-alone TiVo and a standard DirecTiVo (a couple hundred dollars). But the market that would want something like that is VERY small. By year end, DirecTV will be able to provide over 93% of the market with local channels via satellite... developing such a box for 7% just doesn't make good business sense. ESPECIALLY when a very small percentage of that 7% even has HD (they never combined the SD TiVo with the SD DirecTivo, so the chances here are even slimmer). I know that doesn't help you, but that's just the way it is.

I just don't think you're going to have any option beyond two devices (like an HD-TiVo and an SD stand-alone TiVo), unless and until your local cable company provides you with a better option.


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## feldon23

A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder is not $1000 but it IS one of the major components in the price of standalone TiVos which start at $200.

An HDTiVo with a single analog tuner/input would cost an additional $50-100 AND would dramatically increase the complexity of the software development and program guide info. How is the TiVo supposed to know what is on that analog input?


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## bobp

So Feldon, now that we are all about to add more DTivos to our households (my 'old' Hughes is headed to the bedroom), have you seen any new stacker solutions that will allow us to truly stack 3-LNB signals on a single strand of coax? A Super-Duper-Stacker?

If such a solution actually exists, I don't envy you in creating the graphic;-)

Thanks Feldon!

B


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder is not $1000 but it IS one of the major components in the price of standalone TiVos which start at $200. *


 I think there's some confusion between just what source material is expected to be encoded by such a hardware MPEG-2 encoder; SD/NTSC material, for instance, can be encoded in [email protected] using rather inexpensive and readily available equipment. But realtime [email protected] encoding of HD source material isn't readily done for even $1,000... and at the moment, much much more.

So it might be worthy of some wonder as to why at a $999 price point a decision was made not to incorporate sufficient hardware to be able to handle SD/NTSC MPEG-2 encoding, whether or not such hardware was utilized in the initial feature set. And programming data certainly is available somewhere since it's available to current standalone TiVo subscribers. But it's not, currently, available in the same satellite-delivered program info datastream by DirecTV.


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## feldon23

Well if DirecTV could be assured that the HDTiVo couldn't be hacked to have schedule/guide data for cable TV then I think they might put such an input. It would do just manual recordings though.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Well if DirecTV could be assured that the HDTiVo couldn't be hacked to have schedule/guide data for cable TV then I think they might put such an input. It would do just manual recordings though. *


 On the other hand, if DirecTV wasn't subsidizing the equipment (or had recovered its subsidy on the particular piece of equipment involved) it would be a convenient way to attract a new subscriber -- one who already has much of the equipment necessary to benefit from satellite delivered programming from DirecTV.

So lets say DirecTV allowed them to be sold and used by non-DirecTV-subscribers... the investment then already has been made and DirecTV only has to convince them to get a satellite dish and start paying for programming.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *So lets say DirecTV allowed them to be sold and used by non-DirecTV-subscribers... the investment then already has been made and DirecTV only has to convince them to get a satellite dish and start paying for programming. *


But who in their right mind is going to pay $1k (or even more if that meant loss of a subsidy) for a stand-alone SD Tivo?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *But who in their right mind is going to pay $1k (or even more if that meant loss of a subsidy) for a stand-alone SD Tivo? *


 It'd also do OTA ATSC.


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## Darin

Well that's a good point. What do those ATSC only recorders cost? Doesn't Zenith, or someone like that make one?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *Well that's a good point. What do those ATSC only recorders cost? Doesn't Zenith, or someone like that make one? *


 The LG Electronics LST-3410A, which records ATSC and NTSC/analog broadcasts, single tuner recording, 120GB drive (12.5 hours HD), goes for $999.95.


----------



## Darin

Your point actually mirrors one I made a few months ago as a reason why I thought TiVo would be a good purchase for DirecTV.


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## Skyboss

I think it's more likely the units will remain TiVo units with basic TiVo service (i.e. the Pioneer DVD/TiVo units) and then be upgradeable to full service for a monthly fee, or perhaps a discounted one time fee.

If the buy TiVo lock stock and two smoking barrels.... Damn. Talk about making cable and E* scream. No chance for such a good interface. Replay is close, but not that close.


----------



## CPU_Nurd

When I called Tivo last night about something else I was told they have no interest in HDTV and that DirecTV would be takeing all the calls and doing all the Service on the HDTV Tico's. Since DirecTV has told me they have no interest in OTA, I think there is a problem forming. It's for sure they would have no interest in Cable. But somebody should buy Tivo, they sure are hostile to DirecTV users, over the phone at least.
CPU


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## BrettStah

Nurd, I found the following FAQ on DirecTV's site:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVAdvanced_HDTV.jsp#howdifferent


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## BrettStah

The lesson to be learned is to NOT rely on customer service reps for information like this... come here, where the good information is!


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## CPU_Nurd

I haven't found my solution yet, there is lots of talk but I still have a $700 reciever that can only program DirecTV. When I have a solution I will let you know. I don't see anything anywhere that sez anyone is going to support much of anything on recievers from local Antenna inputs. There may be some confusion here, they do support the local stations they retransmit over the satilite, but in my area they don't retransmit any of my 59 local Digital stations. They do retransmit 1 LA station, I live in the San Francisco East Bay area. I have more local Digital options then I do local Anolog options. One local station, KGO transmits on 7.2 nothing but the local dopler radar, talk about boring, but sometimes useful.
I need help with programming of local over the air (not satilite) stations
that are Digital. Nothing.


----------



## BrettStah

I wasn't understanding your issue previously... your problem is that you do not have accurate guide data for your digital OTA channels, right? You may want to contact your local stations, as I suggested there, or maybe someone else here has another suggestion.

Also, I don't see what Tivo has to do with that at all...


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by CPU_Nurd _
> *...somebody should buy Tivo, they sure are hostile to DirecTV users, over the phone at least.*


If you are talking about a DirecTivo (be it the current SD models, or the upcoming HD-Tivo), they are not paid to support it, and I'm sure their CSR's don't have any tools to support them being being told to re-direct those calls to DirecTV. There agreement with DirecTV is such that DirecTV is supposed to be doing the support.

What specifically are you trying to get support on?


----------



## CPU_Nurd

Tivo is actually listing about 7 of my 59 Digital stations on the local survice area on the Tivo. If they supported my reciever and put the IR channel information for that reciever in sub-channel format I would have 7 local digital stations, oh and that is providing they would drive my reciever for local which they will not do. They insist on using the Tivo RF for input, they do seem to drive the IR for some reason but with the local broadcast station number, I think they are supporting 12,29 and 6 30's. I could not get them to explain what these channels worked with but I expect it's the Digital Tivo, although the statdard for digital recievers seems to be to use the Sub-Channels.
Yes, this is all very confusing to the layman, and I have had a commercial FCC license for 35 years and it took me a long time to actually realize that it's a lot like dealing with used cars, you hear what you want, you need to drive it but seeing that it's a component system it's not always easy to drive it . Thanks.
CPU


----------



## CPU_Nurd

Darin
I just want a way to get programming information into a box, any box, that will allow me to record local off the air(not satillite) programming on a recorder, perferably a DVR. I have 59 local Digital stations, I can not program them to record. I thought I had the solution with the Sony HD300 but I didn't realize that NOBODY will support this feature. It looks easy enough to do, I don't need the recordings to be digital, I just need to record. I find that manual recording of Local Digital is posible and is much better on my Sampo then DirecTV local stations.


----------



## BrettStah

I think that the chances of the current Tivos supporting HD receivers are pretty slim.


----------



## yogislayer

Hello all:

This is my first post to your forum and I never owned a TiVo unit before so please forgive my ignorance and keep the answers simple enough for a newbe to understand.

I just bought my first HDTV (Sony GWIII, KF-60WE610) and will be purchasing the new Hi Def TiVo unit as soon as it comes out. I understand that you can not record HD quality out of the TiVo onto another device, but my question is simply...

Does the new HDTV TiVo allow you to hook up a standard DVD recorder or VCR unit to its outputs and record your Hi Def show onto the DVD or video tape in standard definition? If so, which outputs on the TiVo unit can be used to do this? And can you actually do this and still use the TiVo unit as a HDTV receiver and watch television in HDTV while you are doing this? I read something about the new TiVo only putting out a signal on one set of outputs at a time. I will always have my TV connected to the DVI connector and don't want to have to disconnect the cable every time to record onto a DVD or video tape and I want to be able to watch TV while I am copying something over to DVD or video tape.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond to this post.

Bill


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by yogislayer _
> *This is my first post to your forum and I never owned a TiVo unit before so please forgive my ignorance and keep the answers simple enough for a newbe to understand.
> 
> I just bought my first HDTV (Sony GWIII, KF-60WE610) and will be purchasing the new Hi Def TiVo unit as soon as it comes out. I understand that you can not record HD quality out of the TiVo onto another device, but my question is simply...
> 
> Does the new HDTV TiVo allow you to hook up a standard DVD recorder or VCR unit to its outputs and record your Hi Def show onto the DVD or video tape in standard definition? If so, which outputs on the TiVo unit can be used to do this? And can you actually do this and still use the TiVo unit as a HDTV receiver and watch television in HDTV while you are doing this? I read something about the new TiVo only putting out a signal on one set of outputs at a time. I will always have my TV connected to the DVI connector and don't want to have to disconnect the cable every time to record onto a DVD or video tape and I want to be able to watch TV while I am copying something over to DVD or video tape.
> 
> Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond to this post.*


 All TiVo units currently in existence as well as the DirecTV HD DVR will only output one thing... meaning you can't be displaying something different out of one output than you're watching out of another. The DirecTV HD DVR can record from two tuners at once, even while you're watching another recorded program, but cannot output two different things.

You could connect your DVD recorder to the S-Video output, but S-Video output cannot be active at the same time is the HDMI output, so while you're recording you'd either have to be watching the S-Video (or composite) outputs or watching something from a different device.


----------



## MCodanti

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *You could connect your DVD recorder to the S-Video output, but S-Video output cannot be active at the same time is the HDMI output, so while you're recording you'd either have to be watching the S-Video (or composite) outputs or watching something from a different device. *


My understanding is that HDMI (or component) is active at the same time as S-Video when you are in 480i mode. He should be OK. (TiVoPony posted this information in a Yahoo forum a while back.)


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *Nurd, I found the following FAQ on DirecTV's site:
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVAdvanced_HDTV.jsp#howdifferent *





> _from DirecTV.com_
> *Films will retain their original theatrical release size and resolution, and the sound can be delivered in digital-quality 5.1-channel digital audio.*


Except on HBO, Cinemax (coming to DirecTV) and Starz (coming to DirecTV), where the film is reformatted to fit your screen.


----------



## BadlyDrawnBoy

So I am on the pre-order list for the hd tivo.

current setup is as follows the triple lnb dish with line of sight to all 3 sats.

2 Dtivos one in bedroom and one in Living room
So one side of the condo has 2 cables going into living room
the other side has 2 going into bedroom. So the 4 from the dish are split in 2 directions.

When I get my new Dtivo what will I need to do? just disconnect the DTivo in the living room and connect the 2 cables to the HDTivo?


What am I missing? 

I am pretty new to the HD stuff. thanks


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by BadlyDrawnBoy _
> *When I get my new Dtivo what will I need to do? just disconnect the DTivo in the living room and connect the 2 cables to the HDTivo? *


 Yes.

If you want to be able to receive local over-the-air broadcasts, you'll need to install an antenna and either wire it into one of those coax lines using diplexers, or get a 5x4 or 5x8 multiswitch (and a diplexer on the receiver side).

If you want to retain use of the DirecTV DVR in the living room, simultaneously with the DirecTV HD DVR, you'd need to add 2 more coax lines from the dish to the living room and install a 5x8 multiswitch at the dish.


----------



## BadlyDrawnBoy

Thanks Doug.

That sounds great so minimal interruption then. I can pop the antenna up there and get the diplexer and have the new reciever up and running without any more cable runs.

I have no need of 2 Tivos in the living room.

Wrt to OTA shows broadcast will I need that or will the NBC/CBS/FOX locals etc all be broadcast in HD by DTV. Or is that related to the O&O stuff I have been reading about.


----------



## feldon23

There is no room on the DirecTV satellites to have 30 copies (or even 3 for that matter) of ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, UPN, WB, or Fox in High Definition.

Digital TV stations come in over a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears.


----------



## duffin

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *There is no room on the DirecTV satellites to have 30 copies (or even 3 for that matter) of ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, UPN, WB, or Fox in High Definition.
> 
> Digital TV stations come in over a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears. *


Not necessarily true.

CBS-HD East and West is available on DirecTV and DISH today.

FOX-HD is coming to DirecTV.

There is rumor that ABC And NBC are not far behind.

Of course, all the above is if you have a waiver from your local affiliate that is NOT an Owned and Operated (O&O) station by the network.

See the AVS Forum for more details.


----------



## BadlyDrawnBoy

That's all I need to know thanks for answering my questions.

robert


----------



## feldon23

He can get CBS-HD in San Francisco.


----------



## hongcho

duffin,

I am sure DirecTV will eventually get there. But as of now, they do not have enough bandwidth for all those channels, and that's a fact. The only reason people are saying those things is because of the immenant launch of the new DirecTV 7S satellite (which is pushed to April, I think), which is hoped to create more capacity.

In the mean time, your best bet would be an indoor/outdoor antenna.

Hong.


----------



## duffin

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *duffin,
> 
> I am sure DirecTV will eventually get there. But as of now, they do not have enough bandwidth for all those channels, and that's a fact. The only reason people are saying those things is because of the immenant launch of the new DirecTV 7S satellite (which is pushed to April, I think), which is hoped to create more capacity.
> 
> In the mean time, your best bet would be an indoor/outdoor antenna.
> 
> Hong. *


I agree they don't have the bandwidth for local affiliates in HD, but they DO have the bandwidth for East/West HD national feeds for distant customers if they so choose to provided them.


----------



## hongcho

NBC, ABC, FOX, WB, UPN, at least... That would be 10 more HD channels. I doubt they can do that without dropping others. For me, I'd rather have them put STARZ-HD or BRAVO-HD on. But you might feel different.

Hong.


----------



## MitsHD

I have a question regarding the tuner architecture of the HD-DVR250 -- not sure if anyone will have enough info. to answer this, but here goes:

I live in a new midrise condo with about 50 units and a rooftop satellite system that a private contractor has installed with a pretty complex distribution system inside the building, including mixing a rooftop OTA antenna into the HD feed.

The pre-wiring in the building into each unit is limited and can't be expanded because of physical access limitations, and creates limits on how many feeds of what type can be brought in. Bottom line is that I can receive one feed to the back of the HD Tivo that will have all three satellites plus OTA, so I diplex the OTA over to the OTA input and have one satellite tuner active -- and I can live with that.

There is a second feed cable available from my junction box to the prospective HD Tivo location, however. It's possible to bring a second HD signal over it, but that would max out the feed capacity to my unit overall and I wouldn't be able to get SD signals elsewhere (and I need them). I can, however, bring one more SD signal into the unit without impacting any of my other feeds, and I could feed that to the back of the HD Tivo into the second satellite port. (I've researched this carefully, and these are the limitations due to the way our building distribution system is set up).

OK, here's the question: will the new Tivo work with one HD signal into one satellite port and one SD signal into the other? This would allow me to use dual sat tuners with the limitation that only one could get HD. My concern is that the guide reference might be common, or the unit could have a problem with only the 101 satellite being on the second tuner -- or some other issue that would give it problems with this mixed satellite setup.

Anybody have enough insight into the way the unit works to know if this will fly?

Thanks for your help.


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## Darin

I don't understand why you are drawing a distinction between SD feeds and HD feeds. You have satellite feeds, and OTA feeds, both of which could be carrying SD and/or HD content.


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## MitsHD

Darin, it has to do with the way the main building distribution system and multiswitches are set up to serve 50 units -- all owned by a contractor who designed the distribution system. The building was built with only two coax feeds into each unit: no way to snake more coax into the unit from the distribution system, and the multiswitches are somewhere else and I can't get to them or modify them (and I'd have to snake more coax for that to work anyway).

The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner. I have three SD receivers and one HD right now. So my only option (without taking down my other SD receivers) is to split out the fourth SD signal on the SD feed and connect it to the second tuner on the HD-DVR250.

Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility.


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## GalenMD

No, I am still not clear. There is no such thing as SD or HD feeds. As Darin said, there is only Coax. It is where they are hooked-up that matters. So, you need 2 coax feeds that come from the satellite and 1 from the OTA antenna. The OTA can be diplexed in and out of one the satellite feeds so you only need 2 coax in total.

Now, this may be your real problem: where are dish are the feeds coming from? Perhaps the "SD feed" that you are referring to is hooked up to an old single LNB dish. If so, it's a matter of cascading or upgrading the multiswitch so that it is hooked up to the right dish/dishes.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility. *


 Even having run four coax lines to each unit is no guarantee for the future; when there are yet additional satellite feeds to make available, such as the SpaceWay satellite signals, or Ku/FSS signals, both of which might get utilized by DirecTV for new services, then you'd be stuck unable to use a multiswitch in your unit if you needed/wanted any of those new signals.

As I gather from your description, you have 2 coax lines from a triple-LNB distribution system and 1 coax line from a stacked 1-LNB distribution system... right?

If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.

The stacked cable would provide the two SatA inputs to the multiswitch (after destacking them), and the 2 triple-LNB coax lines would provide the two SatBC inputs to the multiswitch. And you'd diplex off the antenna signal from whichever cable it was available, and connect that to the antenna input of the multiswitch.

You'd have a mess of wires around, especially if these coax lines came into different rooms, but you could do it.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner.*


Ok, I think I understand now. Since you mention stacking, I'm guessing that what you really mean is that you have the option of two feeds that can get all three satellites, or a stacked feed that can serve 101 to multiple receivers, plus another feed that can serve all three satellites to one. I don't know if there is a stacker/destacker solution for multiple satellites, so this would make sense. Historically, _most_ of the HD has been on the 110 and 119 satellites, so I could see how this confusion could exist.

So really, your options are: Give the tivo two feeds and let it run dual tuner, or give it it one feed, and have another signal that can feed the other receivers you have. Obviously, you want to take advantage of dual tuners on the hd-tivo, but you also have other receivers that you want to serve. THAT is your quandry, correct? You _could_ feed the second tuner of the hd-tivo with the stacked signal (which could simultaneously feed the other receviers), so it would see all three satellites on one tuner, and just 101 from the second, but here is the problem: assuming the HD-tivo is like the current SD version (which in this respect, is a pretty safe bet), you can't differentiate between the two inputs as to whether or not you have a single sat dish or a mult-sat dish, nor can you give each input different "channels I receive" lists. So you'd have some channels (MOSTLY HD) that could only be seen from one input, but it would sometimes try to tune those from the other tuner, and it would get nothing. It would be a problematic setup, that would kinda work, but have some annoying problems.

There is a third, though expensive, option. Since you have two feeds coming in to your unit, you should be able to stack BOTH of them, so you can get all three satellites on both feeds. Since you say you have the option of a stacked signal that can feed multiple outlets in your unit, but only two feeds that come in to your unit, then they must split once they get to your unit. IF you have access to where those signals are split, then a second (somewhat expensive) stacker could be put downstream of the multiswitch, with a 22khz tone generator that makes sure that the stacker is always asking for the combined sat B/C signal. Then in your unit, use a destacker to break it back out into the odd/even sat b/c signal, and take another destacker to break out the odd/even 101 signal, then take those four outputs to feed a multiswitch, which would then have outputs to feed each of the outlets in your uniti all three sats. I've never heard of this being done, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Stackers aren't cheap, but neither is the hd-tivo.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.*


And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.

We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.
> 
> We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split? *


 Yeah, re-reading I think you're right about what he has... 2 cables.

If he could get a cooperative neighbor with a common wall to feed him their triple-LNB signal, he could feed one (or more) of his multiswitched ones back so the neighbor doesn't lose anything or has a net gain and he gets expandability. 

Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA).


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA). *


If that is how they are set up.... two feeds to each unit, then split to individual rooms from there, it would get even less exensive if they could convince them that they should offer two stacked signals to everyone.... split up the cost of the 2nd stacker.


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## feldon23

Are you saying that 1 feed coming into the apartment can only see 101 and the other feed can see 101/110/119?

This would be strange but, I guess, understandable.


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## MCodanti

I think his point is he can get a 101/110/119 feed, or a stacked 101 feed. If you choose the stacked 101 feed you can split it to multiple boxes in your apartment, if you choose the 101/110/119 feed, you can't split it. I think it was very nice of them to give you options.. Shows some planning.

I agree with DSwallow, your best bet is to try and get a neighbor to share with you. Then you could use a 4x8, 5x8, or 4x16 multiswitch to give their feeds back, and run everything in your own apartment.

Good luck!


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## MitsHD

Yes, MCodanti's depiction is correct, and I have that option on either of two cables only coming in. Since I want to feed multiple SD receivers, I will be working with one cable having stacked 101, and the other having 101/110/119.

I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording.

So the real question for me is the one Darin addressed -- what would happen with one 101/110/119 feed and the other a stacked 101 feed? This would allow me to do one HD sat program and one SD sat program at the same time, which I won't be able to do with one one sat feed. 

If the Tivo has a preference about which satellite input it selects first, I could feed the 101/110/119 into that, and it might work as long as I'm heads up about what's going on at a point in time so that I don't schedule conflicts. But if it is random in terms of which tuner it goes for when both are available, then it's not going to work.

My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released. I don't need to call this shot right away, so I can get the unit up and running, and then see if I can get some clarity from TIVO (or this board) on whether the mixed sat feeds will work after we have some experience with the unit.

Thanks very much to Darin, Doug, Feldon, and MCodanti for taking so much time to weigh in here. This board has been fabulous for me in coming up to speed.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording.*


 I think the provision of both stacked SatA and a single full-access SatABC feed are interesting... and that you might have some hope that the company that installed these systems would be willing to listen to your request for a stacked SatA and a stacked SatBC feed. They might be willing to provide for that with the knowledge that there's going to be other residents who will face similar problems you're facing. When the cost of stacking and providing for the distribution of the SatBC signal is spread across multiple units, your incremental cost to destack them and feed a 5x8 multiswitch is probably around $200. That's not an outrageous cost; in line with what you'd pay to have a professional installer run more cabling if that were possible in the first place.

It can't hurt to express your desire for them providing such options.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by MitsHD _
> *My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released.*


My guess would be that you would have a 50/50 shot of recording anything that was on 110/119. I doubt that it will be "smart enough" to say "oh, I'm not getting these satellites on this input, but I am over here, so I'll TRY to use this input for 101, and keep the other open for 110/119". That is such a rare situation, that the programming complexity just wouldn't be worth it. Not only will you probably be in a situation where half of your 110/119 recordings get missed, but you will occasionally find that the 101/110/119 feed is being used to record something on 101, and you won'to be able to watch 110/119 because you won't want to interupt that recording.


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## MitsHD

Good call, Darin -- I see your logic. I'll just stay with the one feed. Thanks.


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## feldon23

If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.

You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.









You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119. *


 The cascadable multiswitch would be generating that.

And in your drawing don't forget the line going back to the neighbor.


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## MCodanti

Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds)


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by MCodanti _
> *Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds) *


 Not quite like that... It'd be 101 + 110/119 clockwise polarity or 101 + 110/119 counterclockwise polarity.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by MCodanti _
> *Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed.*


Well, no, you could do a 101 + 110 + 119 even without the neighbor's extra wire, OR a 101 + 119 odd, but not a 101 + 119 (full). That would almost be a decent solution, if they didn't have the good channels mixed up the way they do. But right now, 110 has ShowtimeHD, HDnet Movies, ESPN, and DiscoveryHD, while HBOHD and HDnet are on the ODD transponders of 119. So you'd have to choose between those two groups. And you'd risk losing the channels you picked if/when they move things around (which they could easily do once 7s is up).


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## MitsHD

Feldon's solution is terrific -- but I can't do the neighbor access physically. I have, however, figured out a workaround to all this. The two cables-only configuration is replicated through the unit from a distribution panel where the feed cables come in, so I have two cables back to my home theater cabinet.

On one, I'll use the 101/110/119 feed I have now with OTA (from the roof) combined, diplex out the OTA, and have three tuners on the HD Tivo (one satellite, two OTA).

The new HD Tivo will replace my existing Hughes HIRD E-86 and Tivo Series 2, and I'll still have one unused coax, one more SD satellite signal at my distribution panel, and a UHF antenna in the front closet near the distribution panel that gets the local OTA's (building roof antenna is separate). I'll diplex the fourth 101 signal with the indoor UHF antenna, and bring that back to the Hughes E-86 through the second coax. Then I'll have OTA hidef through the Hughes (probably never use it given two OTA tuners on the new TIVO), and SD on the Hughes going into the Tivo Series 2 as I do now. That gives me a clunky but functional way to record additional satellite programs in SD if I need to while recording another satellite program on the HD Tivo, and a way to do three OTA's at once, which as I said I may never use.

That's probably my best workaround, and the lost potential from putting the E-86 on Ebay is about the same as the cost of the mutiswitches and destackers would be if I could get a neighbor's line. All I lose is the ability to Tivo/watch two satellite HD programs at once, and I can easily live with that.

I wouldn't have thought of this without the stimulus of the dialogue we've had on this. Thanks again.


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## Gromit

Who was *****ing about this forum not being helpful? Kudos to Darin, Doug and Feldon. I'm sure others noticed, but I just wanted to point out the custom pic that feldon created in his last post just to address MitsHD's specific problem.


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## MCodanti

Since we don't know exactly how the HD Tivo will work I can't say for sure but I suspect it won't do what you want.

We have decided that it probably treats 1 D* and 1 OTA tuner as one virtual tuner. So it has 2 virtual tuners. When you tell it you only have one D* feed, it probably will turn off that whole virtual tuner. Meaning you will have a one tuner box. (Either OTA or D* at any given time.) Otherwise the scheduling would get too complicated.

I could be wrong, but plan for one tuner and be surprised if both OTA work with just one D* feed.

(My understanding is that the Dish Network 921 will ONLY work if you have 2 sat feeds hooked up... Won't even operate with only one.)


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## lady400

As a late arrival to this party, I just wanted to post a thank you to feldon23 for this excellent informative post. 

I've been on a hiatus from electronic toy buying for quite a while, after a period of upgrading to HDTV, Tivo, prog scan DVD, surround sound, etc. While I used to post in the AVS forums fairly frequently, it's been a long time now.

I was still thinking that HD Tivo was a long way off, but something made me check the Tivo forums recently for any news. Wow!! I was quite surprised to see that this long awaited device is very close to reality. This post made me start to drool.

It was good timing for me, too. I was able to get the hubby to give a thumbs up to the pre-order since we are getting a good tax refund this year. I won't be in the first wave, but that's okay.  

Thanks again.


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## jcthomas

Lady 400:

Timing is everything and yours is impeccable. Good to see you back.
Regards:


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## edrock200

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.
> 
> You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119. *


Sorry to jump in late on the party here but I had a thought. I know you said a neighbors line is not an option, but if it was, with one line you could in theory do all 3 sats. If your neighbor had a stacked "SD" cable, split it and run it into your home. Destack it and use that for 101. Request that both feeds coming into your apt be "HD" feeds, and plug those into 119. That would give you eight outputs (assuming your using a 4x8) that can see all of 101/110/119. I'd also recommend putting a DC block between the direct line from the multiswitch to the stacker (not destacker.)


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## MOTOMATT

Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels 
 thnx for any info


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by MOTOMATT _
> * Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
> if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels
> thnx for any info *


 Yes.


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## MOTOMATT

thnx for reply :up:


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *I'd also recommend putting a DC block between the direct line from the multiswitch to the stacker (not destacker.) *


I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost?


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## feldon23

Updated/Rewrote the Standalone/OpenCable HD TiVo section.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost? *


 Did you try using google with the search term "dc block"?

http://www.smelectronics.us/dcblocks.htm
http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc-f-dcblocks.htm
http://www.tselectronic.com/gc/video/surge_block.html

Channel Master #7264 is a DC block: http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/Passives.htm


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## feldon23

And the other question is what exactly do they do?

In a stacker/destacker situation, I could care less about power surges. The only reason I'd get a DC block is to prevent dumping power into the MDU system.

I don't know how many amps a multiswitch sends up the wire, but shouldn't we be worried? I did some searches and found power draws of anywhere from 180 - 275 mA when switching. If 10 apartments switch at the same time, that's a 2.75 Amp spike! I wouldn't want to be screwing around in the distribution closet when that happened!!


So, can a DC block stop the 13 and 18 volt signal?

If so, I'm going to recommend a DC block be used for each Destacker installation.


Interesting how they range from $2.99 to $75!


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *I don't know how many amps a multiswitch sends up the wire, but shouldn't we be worried? I did some searches and found power draws of anywhere from 180 - 275 mA when switching. If 10 apartments switch at the same time, that's a 2.75 Amp spike! I wouldn't want to be screwing around in the distribution closet when that happened!!
> 
> So, can a DC block stop the 13 and 18 volt signal? *


 Any given coax connection wouldn't have that draw; even if a powered multiswitch used the power from the receiver to do anything (which I don't believe is the case -- it's just being detected to determine what the multiswtich should do), the powered multiswitch is always going to be sending power to the LNB's and will always have all 4 signals available, and each switching circuit in the multiswitch would be independently operating, always connecting some signal to the receiver.

13v and 18v are DC; if it's blocked, it's blocked.

It's just a capacitor. Here's an article on DC blocks: http://www.inmetcorp.com/PDFILES/MWRF8535E_article12-00.pdf


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## feldon23

Yes, 100 apartments each sending 180-250 mA of power to try to power a dual LNB. 

Maybe they already have DC blocks in the distribution closet.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Yes, 100 apartments each sending 180-250 mA of power to try to power a dual LNB.
> 
> Maybe they already have DC blocks in the distribution closet. *


 But each one of those is over its own cable; the multiswitch(es) aren't doing anything with it except looking at it to see which signal to provide.

Even if the multiswitch just shunted the connections, the LNB wouldn't be drawing that much power from every receiver.

A non-powered multiswitch does need to operate off power from the receivers, but a powered multiswitch doesn't.


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## edrock200

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost? *


I had posted links earlier, I'll try to find the thread. Radio shack has them for a few dollars. My main concern is that normally you would put a destacker before each lead before it enters the multiswitch. I'm guessing the destacker removes the voltage or adjusts it to play nice with the stacker. By removing the destacker between the odd side of the MS and the stacker that line can send voltage straight to the stacker.


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## edrock200

DSwallow, my point was the destackers may be altering the voltage/removing it before getting to the stacker. When you throw in a multiswitch and remove the stacker from one side, the MS might be sending voltage up the line that the stacker doesn't like.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *DSwallow, my point was the destackers may be altering the voltage/removing it before getting to the stacker. When you throw in a multiswitch and remove the stacker from one side, the MS might be sending voltage up the line that the stacker doesn't like. *


 Here's the Sonora catalog which include diagrams of the operation of the stacker, destacker and voltage inserter... http://www.pdi-sat.com/html/pdf/SonoraCatalog_PDISAT.pdf

They show how the DC power is passed or blocked (there's destackers that pass or that block).

Frankly, my head hurts trying to figure out where this statement originated from and following the path between receiver and destacker(s) and multiswtich(es), so maybe someone who knows can look at that and decide if it'd be necessary.


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## duffin

Just a thought, could we take this discussion off to another thread? I thought this one was for the unit specifically vs. installation.

Thanks.


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## feldon23

I'd split it into a separate thread but I don't have that button.


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## duffin

How about this thread then?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158833


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## wired711

Hi all. 

First, I would like to add another big time thanks to feldon23 for the amazing work he's put into the "HD TiVo and HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ" including all the updates to keep it current. Also many thanks to all the contributors here who have provided lots of depth of information (including contributing to the technical information in the FAQ) as well.

We got our first HDTV two weeks ago and other than a few high def xbox games in 720p (that look amazing) have not yet had the HDTV experience yet with, well..TV but I would like to change all that ASAP. I have read through from message #1 (the FAQ) to present and just want to make sure I understand what I need to do the upgrade.

Now:
Have 2 Hughes standard def GXCEBOTDs DirecTivos (both unaltered 35 hour units in the family room, lovingly known as Tivo1 and Tivo2). The four coax lines (1 pair in each Tivo) come from the basement and a 4x4 multi-switch from an 18" dual (single arm) LNB dish pointed at Sat 101.

Next:
I plan to call DirecTV and try to get the $99 customer retention HD upgrade dealo for the included Phase III elliptical Trible LNB (3 arm) dish, HD receiver and installation. I also plan to pre-order the HD-DVR250 but depending on when the upgrade is done I would at least have an HD receiver to get us through for a month or so. In the spring we plan to look into adding a roof antenna to get the OTA HD locals.

Until we have the HD-DVR250, we'd like to continue to have both GXCEBOTDs hooked up and add the HD Receiver. When the HD-DVR250 arrives we would add that to the mix as well. Maximally, we could eventually have hooked up to the same HDTV...

-Two standard def GXCEBOTD DirecTivos (2 pairs of 2 DTV coax feeds). Might put one Tivo to rest once we have the HD-DVR250.
-1 (free DirecTV) HD Receiver. (1 DTV coax feed). Not sure if we would keep this going once we have the HD-DVR250.
-1 HD-DVR250 (2 DTV coax feeds).
-1 OTA antenna (1 OTA coax feed).
So as a max I see 8 coax feeds coming into the family room if we kept everything but we'll probably take either one GXCEBOTD or the (free) DirecTV HD Receiver out of the mix once the HD-DVR250 is on board. Just not sure at this stage so I want to be ready for the max situation. 

OK, here come the questions...

1. 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch? For the max situation, where I want 8 coax feeds into the family room, would I need a 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch? If I understand correctly, the odd input on the 5x8 could be used for the OTA antenna input? Is there any reason I shouldn't just feed the coax from the antenna directly into the family room (and the single OTA input on the back of the HD-DVR250) and bypass the multi-switch? If I don't need a powered multi-switch now (with my 4x4), would I need one for any reason for the upgrade to the 4x8 or 5x8?

2. Does anyone know if as part of the Customer Retention $99 HD Upgrade deal I can get either a 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch included?

3. Is there any use for my existing 4x4 multi-switch as part of our upgraded HD configuration?

4. Is there anything I'm forgetting or have terribly confused?

I'm sure I have some stuff just plain wrong so please straighten me out. It's late and I've got to get to bed so I'm a bit rushed. Please excuse any glaring stupidity here.

Thanks in advance to any and all for your assistance!
Wired


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## dswallow

1) You'll have a hard time finding a 4x8 multiswitch; 5x8's are much more prevalent, and you can still choose to bring the antenna directly in on its own cable not using the antenna input on the multiswitch. No big deal -- just cap it off to keep moisture out. Almost all 4x8's and 5x8's are powered. A unit like the Terk BMS-58 (~$100) can be located outdoors and power is delivered to it over another coax cable from the supplied 110v power adapter. But since you'll need the antenna input on the DirecTV HD DVR, too, that'd be 2 places (the $99 deal HD receiver plus that), so you may as well use the multiswitch's capability to distribute the OTA antenna -- it amplifies the signal to accommodate the 8-way distribution and the loss from the diplexer, so you're not really losing anything.

2) Yes, just tell them you already have all 4 connections used and need the installer to bring a 5x8 multiswitch since the HD receiver will make 5; you'll already be getting the Phase III dish as part of the package since you only have a single LNB dish now and need the 3 LNB dish for HD programming. The Phase III dish has a built-in 4x4 multiswitch -- but since you need 5 outputs now, and 7 total later, you still need the 5x8 multiswitch... it'll just be connected to the 4x4 multiswitch on the Phase III dish (meaning the 5x8 multiswitch has to be cascadable -- and most are these days, like the Terk I just mentioned)

3) No. Sell it on E-Bay. Junk it. Save it for another project. Whatever.

4) You've pretty much got it covered.


----------



## edrock200

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Here's the Sonora catalog which include diagrams of the operation of the stacker, destacker and voltage inserter... http://www.pdi-sat.com/html/pdf/SonoraCatalog_PDISAT.pdf
> 
> They show how the DC power is passed or blocked (there's destackers that pass or that block).
> 
> Frankly, my head hurts trying to figure out where this statement originated from and following the path between receiver and destacker(s) and multiswtich(es), so maybe someone who knows can look at that and decide if it'd be necessary.  *


LOL, well my reasoning was this:

If you combine two multiswitches with high-frequency splitters that doesn't block DC on one leg, you will slowly burn out the LNB. There seemed to be a rash of burned out stackers lately. Since most wiring diagrams always show a destacker on the end of every line in a stacked situation (even with a MS in the loop) I was thinking maybe they somehow regulate voltage on the line. With feldon's diagrams, you take a destacker out on one line with the MS in the loop. So I figured better to be safe than sorry and try throwing a dc block on the line to keep any extra voltage from going up the line. Since the MS locks on to odds or evens and the stackers powered, it doesn't seem necessary for voltage to be sent up the line on that side.


----------



## wired711

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *1) You'll have a hard time finding a 4x8 multiswitch; 5x8's are much more prevalent [snip]
> ...so you may as well use the multiswitch's capability to distribute the OTA antenna -- it amplifies the signal to accommodate the 8-way distribution and the loss from the diplexer, so you're not really losing anything.*


Hi Doug. Thanks for the complete and informative reply. I'm a little confused about the diplexer and what it does. Will it already be part of whatever HD antenna solution I get. I know the HD-DVR250 just takes a single OTA antenna input and can utilize 2 OTA tuners from it so I guess that's where the diplexer somehow comes into play?



> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *2) Yes, just tell them you already have all 4 connections used and need the installer to bring a 5x8 multiswitch since the HD receiver will make 5 [snip]
> ...it'll just be connected to the 4x4 multiswitch on the Phase III dish (meaning the 5x8 multiswitch has to be cascadable -- and most are these days, like the Terk I just mentioned).*


Do I need to be concerned that the installer will bring a non-amplified (or otherwise inferior quality) 5x8 and thus do you recommend I be more specific about just what type of 5x8 I need him to bring or would I be better off just taking the hit and purchasing a good 5x8 like the Turk you mentioned? If so, can you recommend where I might order from?

Thanks again
Wired (aka "Doug").


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by wired711 _
> *Hi Doug. Thanks for the complete and informative reply. I'm a little confused about the diplexer and what it does. Will it already be part of whatever HD antenna solution I get. I know the HD-DVR250 just takes a single OTA antenna input and can utilize 2 OTA tuners from it so I guess that's where the diplexer somehow comes into play?*


 The OTA antenna signal (50-850MHz and below) gets combined with the satellite signal (950MHz-1450MHz) by the multiswitch (or by using a diplexer "in reverse" of how you'd use it at the receiver).

The diplexer at the receiver is used to split the two signals back into separate cables, with the DC voltage coming from the satellite input on the receiver being passed up to the multiswitch.

It's not much more than a special-purpose splitter, but instead of splitting the signal equally, it splits it such that different blocks of frequencies are separated into different cables.



> _Originally posted by wired711 _
> *Do I need to be concerned that the installer will bring a non-amplified (or otherwise inferior quality) 5x8 and thus do you recommend I be more specific about just what type of 5x8 I need him to bring or would I be better off just taking the hit and purchasing a good 5x8 like the Turk you mentioned? If so, can you recommend where I might order from?*


 I don't think there's any guarantee what DirecTV provides via the installer for free. But I don't think I've heard anyone here mention getting a 4x8 or a non-powered 5x8. The Terk BMS-58 is available at most chain electronic stores like Circuit City.

From buy.com for $71.99: http://www.buy.com/retail/electronics/product.asp?sku=90118793&loc=111&sp=1
From solidsignal.com for $79.99: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPBMS58


----------



## wired711

Thanks again Doug. OK... so if..
a) I decide to feed the OTA Antenna coax into the 5th (antenna) input on the 5x8 multi-switch it combines the OTA + Sat freq signals together on each of the 8 outputs and the diplexer at the receiver splits out the feq range to use whatever is appropriate for the input a given coax is fed to - the OTA freq for the antenna input or the Sat freq for both Sat inputs? I want to be sure ... the diplexer is _built into_ the reciever and not something I need to buy, right?

b) Or I can run the OTA antenna coax directly into the receiver. In this case is the diplexer in the receiver even used? Again, I want to make sure that in this case I don't have to purchase a diplexer either?

Does this work and apply the same way regardless if I'm using the HD Receiver from the $99 retention deal or the HD-DVR250?

I'm still not sure I'm fully appreciating the advantage of going with a) over b). Is it because there's some advantage of running the OTA antenna coax into a _powered_ multi-switch.

Sorry if I'm missing the point a bit or being a bit too dense. I think I'm close and just need a little nudge to the finish line 

Thanks for the purchase info on the multi-switch. The AC Adapter is included (as opposed to being optional) isn't it? What would happen if the multi-switch wasn't powered (like the 4x4 I have now)?

Finally, has anybody out there done the $99 customer retention deal with DirecTV where you needed the installer to deliver a (5x8) multi-switch? If so, which brand did he bring, was it powered. Any problems?

Thanks,
Wired


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by wired711 _
> *Thanks again Doug. OK... so if..
> a) I decide to feed the OTA Antenna coax into the 5th (antenna) input on the 5x8 multi-switch it combines the OTA + Sat freq signals together on each of the 8 outputs and the diplexer at the receiver splits out the feq range to use whatever is appropriate for the input a given coax is fed to - the OTA freq for the antenna input or the Sat freq for both Sat inputs? I want to be sure ... the diplexer is built into the reciever and not something I need to buy, right?
> 
> b) Or I can run the OTA antenna coax directly into the receiver. In this case is the diplexer in the receiver even used? Again, I want to make sure that in this case I don't have to purchase a diplexer either?
> 
> Does this work and apply the same way regardless if I'm using the HD Receiver from the $99 retention deal or the HD-DVR250?
> 
> I'm still not sure I'm fully appreciating the advantage of going with a) over b). Is it because there's some advantage of running the OTA antenna coax into a powered multi-switch.
> 
> Sorry if I'm missing the point a bit or being a bit too dense. I think I'm close and just need a little nudge to the finish line
> 
> Thanks for the purchase info on the multi-switch. The AC Adapter is included (as opposed to being optional) isn't it? What would happen if the multi-switch wasn't powered (like the 4x4 I have now)?
> 
> Finally, has anybody out there done the $99 customer retention deal with DirecTV where you needed the installer to deliver a (5x8) multi-switch? If so, which brand did he bring, was it powered. Any problems? *


a) The diplexer is an additional thing to use before the connections go to the satellite receiver. You'd install a diplexer on one feed from the multiswitch and from the diplexer connect to the antenna input and one of the satellite intputs; another feed from the multiswitch would go directly to the other satellite input.

b) If you run a separate line directly from the antenna, then no diplexer is used.

This is how you do it whenever you need to get an antenna signal to some tuner input and the antenna signal is combined with a satellite signal. It doesn't matter what sort of receiver your using.

The advantage comes about when you have more than one tuner that needs an antenna input or when you want to save on running a separate wire for the antenna signal.

The power adapter is included with the multiswitch.

If a multiswitch were passive (not powered) it wouldn't amplify the signal; each output of the multiswitch would be some percentage of the signal available since it's split 8 ways (on an Nx8 multiswitch). I've seen one 5x8 multiswitch that could operate without power (but also could be powered), every other one I've seen requires power.


----------



## wired711

Many, many thanks Doug. Any recommendations for a particular diplexer or are they pretty much all the same? I can check the sources you gave me for the multi-switch. 
Wired


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by wired711 _
> *Many, many thanks Doug. Any recommendations for a particular diplexer or are they pretty much all the same? I can check the sources you gave me for the multi-switch. *


 The specs on loss of signal of various diplexers does vary, but not usually enough that I'd say it's worth worrying about when using a powered multiswitch to combine the antenna signal. Terk makes one, as does Channel Vision... and you should be able to find diplexers at Radio Shack, too... just about anywhere you find the multiswitch, you'll probably find diplexers for sale. Channel Vision does differentiate between diplexers intended to combine the signals and diplexers intended to separate the signals, but most don't. And even those from Channel Vision would work in either capacity -- they've just tried to optimize some things for the purpose they're intended for.


----------



## wired711

Thanks again Doug.


----------



## timatraw

Wired,
Installer connected a powered "DirecTV approved Eagle Aspen Model DTV4x8" 4x8 multi-switch as part of the $99 retention deal at no charge. 

Doug or anyone, 
I am getting the CM 4228 antenna installed into the HDTV receiver. I want it to be "HDTIVO" ready. I have an antenna install scheduled and I want to make sure I get it right. The installer isn't the brightest bulb in the pack so i'll need to know how to instruct him.I thought about having the installer run the cable from the antenna directly to the receiver. I guess the cable goes from the CM4228 antenna to the dish and then the HDTV receiver. Is this correct? Should the cable go from dish to switcher and then to the box? Do I require (or do you recommend) diplexers for install?
Thanks.
Tim


----------



## timatraw

Sorry...
Diplexer question was answered in above post. New questions. I just had new HDTV receiver installed. I'm waiting for HDTIVO. I also have regular DTivo and third D*receiver. Will have four after April! Am I running out of inputs? I have the Phase III dish. What cables go from Phase III switcher to the 4x8 switcher? How do I connect OTA signal from dish to HDTivo and the other two boxes? I guess this is where those diplexers come into the picture.
Thanks all.
Tim


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## Bigg

Four satellite cables go from the Multi in the dish to the cascade multi. If you ever need more DTV outputs, you can use another 4x8 cascade switch, under the existing multi that is under the dish. the OTA signal is totally independent of the satellite signals. It would go through a CATV splitter in the attic, and then a coax line needs to be run to each of the TVs where that signal is required. Avoid diplexers if you can.


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## timatraw

Whats the difference between a diplexer and a splitter? What does a "cascading" multi-switch do?


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## feldon23

The only way to guarantee the best reception is to run the cable from the antenna directly to the receiver. Diplexing is an imperfect science and can drown out some or all of the DirecTV signals.


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by timatraw _
> *Whats the difference between a diplexer and a splitter?*


A diplexer, depending on which end you plug it into, either injects or extracts over-the-air antenna (rabbit ears) TV signals out of wire that is also carrying a DirecTV signal.

A 5x4 multiswitch has a built-in diplexer, so any antenna plugged into it will be available from any of the 4 downstream outputs.

A splitter (which you CANNOT USE FOR SATELLITE TV except in rare instances) splits a TV signal so you can use it on 2 or more TVs.



> _Originally posted by timatraw _
> *What does a "cascading" multi-switch do? *


In a nutshell, preserve full access to all 3 satellites (101, 110, 119). If you do NOT use a cascadable multiswitch, you'll lose access to most of DirecTV's HDTV offerings.


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## wired711

> _Originally posted by timatraw _
> *Wired,
> Installer connected a powered "DirecTV approved Eagle Aspen Model DTV4x8" 4x8 multi-switch as part of the $99 retention deal at no charge.
> Tim *


timatraw - thanks for your reply on this. Really good to know they included the powered 4x8! Hopefully there will be no problem with getting one included when I call (today or tomorrow) to ask for the $99 retention deal.
A followup...

1. When did you call and what receiver model did they give you? Any problems with it?

Speaking of calling to get the retention deal... 
2. How did you go about asking for the deal? Did you just call up and ask for it or did you do a bit of a song and dance and say "I'm planning on getting HD from my cable company and dropping DirecTV because it's not costing me anything to upgrade my equipment with Cable. Can you offer me any reason to stay with DirecTV?" or something like that. Just wondering what approach might be most successful. I've recently read a post on another thread from a 2+ year customer (I think) that said he'd made several calls and couldn't get the retention deal yet.
Wired


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## timatraw

Wired,
Called a couple of weeks ago. Received the new Samsung 360HDTV receiver. The 360 has lots of bugs that are being worked on by D*.There is a comprehensive thread over in the AVS forum about this topic. I called and asked for the "Retention Dept." I told them I was dropping Satellite for cable and was offered the $99deal. They also threw in free intall, second install for an additional room, Showtime free for 6 mos., HBO @ $2.00/month for six mos., free dish and receiver, and courtesy OTA antenna install (I bought the antenna). I have been a customer for two plus years and that seems to be a criteria to get the deal. If denied, you can tell them that many people at the AVS forum heve received this deal- be professional, polite and assertive.
Good luck.
Tim


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## timatraw

Does the HDTIVO have an internal diplexer? What is the benefit?
Thanks.
Tim


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## jcblack

Isn't 1080i 30 frames per second (interlaced) and/or 60 fields per second?


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## wired711

> _Originally posted by timatraw _
> *Wired,
> Called a couple of weeks ago. Received the new Samsung 360HDTV receiver. The 360 has lots of bugs that are being worked on by D*.There is a comprehensive thread over in the AVS forum about this topic. I called and asked for the "Retention Dept." I told them I was dropping Satellite for cable and was offered the $99deal. They also threw in free intall, second install for an additional room, Showtime free for 6 mos., HBO @ $2.00/month for six mos., free dish and receiver, and courtesy OTA antenna install (I bought the antenna). I have been a customer for two plus years and that seems to be a criteria to get the deal. If denied, you can tell them that many people at the AVS forum heve received this deal- be professional, polite and assertive.
> Good luck.
> Tim *


Thanks timatraw. Looks like I'm about ready to make that call. Are any of the 360HDTV bugs causing you problems? I'll look for the AVS topic.
Thanks,
Wired


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## wired711

> _Originally posted by wired711 _
> *Thanks timatraw. Looks like I'm about ready to make that call. Are any of the 360HDTV bugs causing you problems? I'll look for the AVS topic.
> Thanks,
> Wired *


Just got the $99 deal. No shipping charge either. After credit, it's exactly $99. I had to take the $10.99 per month HD Package for a 12 month commitment which we really didn't want. She looked to see if she could give us the deal without it but she couldn't. We already have HBO so we'd automatically get HBO HD anyway + National feed of CBS in HD since we live in an owned and operated city. This was enough for us now at least until we get an antenna installed for OTA HD. Oh well. It's first month free so its basically $144.00 for a year if we decide to drop it after that. I know we'll enjoy the HD channels. Installation is this Saturday. She confirmed they will install an nX8 multiswitch and even put a note on the work order to make sure. I asked her to add that it be a "powered" multiswitch but probably that's what it would be anyway from what I understand. She doesn't know if we'll get the Huges HTL-HD or the Samsung TS-160 receiver. In a few days we'll see what gets shipped to us.

Thanks again timatraw and please do let me know what problems you might be having with the Samsung. Do you know if the HTL-HD is OK?
Wired.


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## edrock200

You'll probably get the TS-360.


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## PYROBOB

I'm confused. After reading most of this thread, I called DTV and spoke with customer retention and they told me DTV did not offer DTV-HD-TIVO. The lady did offer to sell me the HD receiver and credit me $300 after I said I was thinking of going to cable. Is the HD-TIVO available? Or, are they just tossing me around?
Also, What is the AVS Forum?

Thanks

Bob


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by PYROBOB _
> *I'm confused. After reading most of this thread, I called DTV and spoke with customer retention and they told me DTV did not offer DTV-HD-TIVO. The lady did offer to sell me the HD receiver and credit me $300 after I said I was thinking of going to cable. Is the HD-TIVO available? Or, are they just tossing me around?*


 Maybe you should read it a little slower next time. 

The DirecTV HD DVR will be released at the end of March.

While it's purely speculative, don't expect too much, if anything, in the way of special offers on it, even from customer retention, for some time.



> _Originally posted by PYROBOB _
> *Also, What is the AVS Forum?*


 www.avsforum.com -- run by the same folks who operate this place.


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## swatter

Wow, post #400


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by jcblack _
> *Isn't 1080i 30 frames per second (interlaced) and/or 60 fields per second? *


Correct.

For HD-DVD, we're hoping they'll do 1080p-24 or 1080p-30 depending on the source material.


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## edrock200

What display, other than a PC monitor can handle 1080p?


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## BrettStah

A google search for "1080p" came up with the below link, which talks about the Toshiba 57HLX82 1080P Rear Projector:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,821914,00.asp


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## feldon23

It's a steal at $9,000.


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## hongcho

I don't expect to see many 1080p displays getting popular until we see some actual HD-DVD disks and players in the market.

Although I feel this is a shame, but I don't see any ATSC broadcasters will adopt 1080p/24 or 1080p/30. But I am hoping that HD-DVD would.

Hong.


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## gimp

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *A google search for "1080p" came up with the below link, which talks about the Toshiba 57HLX82 1080P Rear Projector:
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,821914,00.asp *


I own one. While the native scan rate is 1080p, it does not accept 1080p input; max in is 1080i.


----------



## nabsltd

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *What display, other than a PC monitor can handle 1080p? *


Technically, very few, but every HDTV *should* be able to accept 1080/30p or 1080/24p as those are legal ATSC modes, and there are STBs that output the "native" signal.

I know my HDTV only accepts 480i, 480p, and 1080i on the component inputs, but can handle any ATSC mode via the built-in tuner. The 1080p modes are converted to 1080/60i, unfortunately.


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## CraigHB

So if you have a HD monitor that can handle 1080i natively, is there any reason why you wouldn't just set the monitor and HD DTiVo to run at 1080i all the time? Is there any loss of clarity when a 720p broadcast is scaled to 1080i? Aren't there vast differences in "scaler" quality from one device to the next. Does the HD DTiVo have a good scaler? If your HD monitor has a better scaler, how do you determine which one does the job? How do you know what mode the broadcast is to begin with?

I tell you, I have to rag on the ATSC for failing to standardize on one digital TV mode. I mean honestly, how is the average consumer going to to deal with it. It makes my head hurt and I'm pretty good with this kind of stuff. Multiple modes seem like an unnecessary complication. NTSC doesn't have all these modes and keeping it simple is probably the reason for it. Well, hopefully it will be like Beta and VHS video casettes; one will prove dominant causing the rest to disappear.

Thanks,

- Craig


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## Bigg

We don't need to get rid of one. just take the best parts from both, and you have 1080p!!!


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by CraigHB _
> *So if you have a HD monitor that can handle 1080i natively, is there any reason why you wouldn't just set the monitor and HD DTiVo to run at 1080i all the time? Is there any loss of clarity when a 720p broadcast is scaled to 1080i?*


Well, it depends. If you have a fixed pixel display, then it's simply going to come down which has the better scaler... the Hd-Tivo, or your TV. Theoretically, the picture should look best when shown at it's native resolution, so a 720p image should look better on a nateive 720 display than it would scaled to 1080 on a native 1080 display. If you have a CRT display that can display both 720 and 1080 natively (a rarity), then you are best adjusting the output to match the content.


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## CraigHB

Isn't that kind of lame? I mean if they had standardized on a 480 and a 960 mode, then things would always scale in an ideal manner. The way it is now, the quality of your picture depends on the resolution of the broadcast and the native resolution of your display. It's really brain damaged of the ATSC to allow a standard that makes PQ dependent on something the average consumer will have no clue about.

- Craig


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## hongcho

> It's really brain damaged of the ATSC to allow a standard that makes PQ dependent on something the average consumer will have no clue about.

True. But for the "average" consumer that wouldn't make a difference anyway.

It is true that it is a bit hairy with all the formats, but they didn't know what to go with. They were initially all for progressive, but some insisted on interlaced format. And 1080i/60 wasn't going to do well in some cases in the 6 MHz / 19.3 Mbps channel.

At least, it is coming down to these two formats now: 720p/60 and 1080i/60. Well, when HD-DVD comes and start using 1080p/24 or 1080p/30, it will be another story...

Hong.


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## wmccain

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36
> But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).*


I've been using an Extron CVC 200 transcoder for several years. It works great, but it is expensive and (when set to do 720p/1080i) it can't handle 480i/480p.

Recently I replaced it with a KeyDigitalSystems "ClearVideo3" (model KD-CTCA3). This is about 1/3 the price of the Extron (around $275) and it can handle _all_ the HDTV formats (480i/480p/720p/1080i). Plus, it has a component video "pass through" output, which the Extron does not, so you can still use the component output to drive another monitor.


----------



## wmccain

I just became aware, from one of the other threads, that the HD TiVo apparently does _not_ have "full-time" NTSC composite/S-video outputs (i.e. NTSC outputs that are active regardless of the format being output on the component/HDMI jacks). Reportedly, one must select the "480i" output format for the HDTV output in order to activate the NTSC outputs.

This could be a "show-stopper" for me, as I was planning to get a Hughes HD-DVR250 to replace the Hughes HDVR2 in my master bedroom  and also upgrade the master bedroom TV to a Sharp 30" LCD. But the master bedroom also feeds NTSC video to an existing 17" LCD widescreen in my kitchen. Not only is the kitchen on another floor, so pulling more wires is non-trivial, but the kitchen LCD's high-def component input is already being used for a high-def feed from my home theater.

This is an incredibly stupid design decision on TiVo's part. I expected much better from them.

There is a _long_ history concerning the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature and/or the lack of same in HDTV set-top boxes. The very first STB to hit the market, the OTA-only Panasonic TU-DST50, had this capability ... but it was omitted from the TU-DST51 and all subsequent Panasonic models. However, most (possibly all) Samsung HDTV STBs, both OTA and OTA/DirecTV, have had this feature from the get-go, and it has been very popular (as it is _essential_ for concurrent whole-house distribution in NTSC format, not to mention taping on a conventional VCR).

More recently, the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature was included in the latest "hot" HDTV OTA/DirecTV STB, manufactured by LG Electronic and marketed under three brands (as the LG LSS-3200A, the Sony SAT-HD300, and the Hughes HTL-HD). This was warmly received by users, as the previous model in this line (marketed as the Zenith HD-SAT520 and Sony SAT-HD200) had almost all the same features _except_ the concurrent NTSC output.

Perhaps TiVo/Hughes can fix this unbelievable oversight with a software update ... are you listening, TiVo?

One slightly mitigating factor in the lack of concurrent NTSC output in the forthcoming HDTV TiVo is that (it has been reported that) they put an output format control button on the remote.

Like the concurrent output issue, there is a long history behind this, and in this case TiVo appears to have paid attention to users' needs. The earliest HDTV STBs put a format control slide-switch on the rear panel ... _very_ inconvenient ... or else they had no output format control capability at all (as with the infamous RCA DTC-100). A few later models put a format control button on the front panel, but without any corresponding button on the remote.

Even today's HDTV STB "of choice", the LG LSS-3200A/Sony SAT-HD300/Hughes HTL-HD varies oddly in this regard. All three versions have a format control button on the front panel, but only the Sony version has a format control button on the remote!


----------



## wmccain

Another concern that I have is that the HD TiVo apparently does not have a "native" option for the output format. This is another step backwards compared to the current "state-of-the-art" HDTV STBs. The LG LSS-3200A/Sony SAT-HD300/Hughes HTL-HD, for example, not only has a "native" output option (all HDTV formats are output as broadcast, no conversion), but they also have an excellent "variable 1" output option (480p, 720p, and 1080i are output "as is", but 480i is upconverted to 480p).

On the other hand, the TiVo took a step in the right direction by (reportedly) implementing a configuration menu that lets the user select the preferred output formats. They should take this configuration menu "one step further": allow the user to select, for _each_ of the four broadcast formats (480i/480p/720//1080i) _exactly which format to output_ (yes, I know there are actually 18 variations of the broadcast formats, but 4 format category "groups" is enough for this purpose).

Thus, if you have a set that can handle only 1080i, you would set all broadcast formats to output in that mode. If you want "native", set each format to output as itself. "Variable 1", as described above, and similar "variable" formats, are also easily specified.

If this configuration menu were enhanced as I am suggesting, _AND_ concurrent output of NTSC (480i) on the composite/S-video jacks were provided, then one would never need to touch a "format" button (on the front panel or on the remote)!!!


----------



## MCodanti

> _Originally posted by wmccain _
> *This is an incredibly stupid design decision on TiVo's part. I expected much better from them.
> 
> Perhaps TiVo/Hughes can fix this unbelievable oversight with a software update ... are you listening, TiVo?*


No, you want DirecTV to be listening. They are the ones setting the specs, and paying for it. TiVo can't add anything that DirecTV doesn't want. TiVoPony has said that he thinks "native" mode could be supported through a software update, but the request would have to come from DirecTV. Remember this is a DirecTV HD DVR powered by TiVo. TiVo writes the software under contract from DirecTV.



> * More recently, the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature was included in the latest "hot" HDTV OTA/DirecTV STB, manufactured by LG Electronic and marketed under three brands (as the LG LSS-3200A, the Sony SAT-HD300, and the Hughes HTL-HD). *


But you have to remember the hardware was designed over a year ago, with parts available at that time. They would probably do things differently if they were starting over now. (They did make one change since then, by adding another OTA tuner which has delayed things a few months.)

If it doesn't work for you that is too bad, but it will work great for me. I'm keeping my HDVR2 for SD, as I will need all the space the HD-DVR250 has for HD.

Not everyone runs a whole house system. How often does everyone want to watch the same thing? I think putting a separate box for each display device is the best option, and then it would be even better if they all supported HMO.


----------



## BrettStah

It is apparently a limitation of the chipset in the HD-Tivo (and Dish 921 PVR) that prohibits simultaneous outputs like you (and I) desire.

A "native" mode may be possible via a software update, however.


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by MCodanti _
> *No, you want DirecTV to be listening. They are the ones setting the specs, and paying for it.*


True, and I understood that when I posted. On the other hand, TiVo came up with the original "reference design" on their own, and DirecTV "bought into it". There was undoubtedly some "give-and-take" collaboration after that  doubling the number of tuners, for example  but I suspect that the two "bonehead mistakes" (lack of concurrent output and lack of "native" mode) were in TiVo's original design, and DirecTV didn't know enough (or care enough) to request the necessary changes.

Note that the very latest Hughes-branded non-TiVo HDTV OTA/DirecTV receiver, the Hughes HTL-HD, has _both_ of the "missing features", concurrent output and "native" mode. Since this is DirecTV's "house brand", I had assumed that any future unit, such as the Hughes HD-DVR250, would at least match this feature set. (Also note the recent DirecTV announcement that all future DirecTV receivers would be marketed by DirecTV, under their own brand, and have a common feature set.)

But the Hughes HTL-HD was actually designed by LG Electronics, and they (unlike TiVo) had several years of experience with HDTV models, so they had a better feel for customer requirements. (The "school of hard knocks"!)

Which is sad, because TiVo has a (deservedly) high reputation for anticipating market requirements and "not missing things". If they had included the missing features in the reference design, I am sure that DirecTV would have accepted them (as they did with LG's design), "no questions asked". But now that the initial release is "frozen", there is much more bureaucracy involved, and I fear it will be like "pulling teeth" to get DirecTV to request the changes and for TiVo to implement them. We will probably see HMO on DirecTiVo models before we see concurrent output and "native" mode ...


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## wmccain

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *For HD-DVD, we're hoping they'll do 1080p-24 or 1080p-30 depending on the source material. *


Since 2-3 pulldown captures all of the image pixels on 24-fps movies, 1080p-30 offers no particular advantage over 1080i-60. True, having all of a frame in one place instead of having to piece together two fields offers a minor improvement in processing. But every fifth frame in 1080p-30 is redundant, just as one-out-of-five fields is redundant in 1080i-60.

1080p-24, on the other hand, offers some real improvement: a 20% reduction in storage space required, due to the elimination of the aforementioned redundancy.

For material that originates as video, not film, it's probably best to keep it in 1080i-60 format rather than to combine two fields into one frame. Doing so can introduce motion artifacts, so it's better to let the monitor handle this in a manner appropriate to the monitor's technology (CRT versus plasma or LCD).


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## dswallow

You could get this to work with a little creativity... such as using a component video switch for the signal going to your LCD screen -- one controlled by a remote if an automatic switch wouldn't function in your environment. You would have to pull the additional wires, unless you already had a CAT5 cable, then you could use devices to carry the 3 component signals over twisted pair.

I find the lack of a native mode or a hybrid variation of it more of a concern -- but, and this is the first I heard someone say -- if it could be solved with a software update, that'd be good. But even then, I'm not too bothered. The compromises I'm making now not having HD recording capability at all are far worse than these compromises with the DirecTV HD DVR.


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## hongcho

Re: Lack of NTSC capability...

The thing is, this will require them to have an NTSC tuner (which I doubt would be that hard) and an MPEG-2 encoder for each OTA tuner. I am sure this would have only added $100 (or even less) to the hardware costs, but the software to support them would have been much greater.

I had the same concern about NTSC, but that's why I am keeping my ReplayTV (with 200 GB).

This product is just adding two OTA ATSC tuners and HD recording capability to the existing product. Sure it seems this took a long time, but others (e.g., Dish 921) seem to have about the same difficulty getting those into a product.

There will be Series 2 HD DirecTivo, I am sure. As the first HD DVR, I think this product is pretty sweet.

Hong.


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## wmccain

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *You could get this to work with a little creativity...*


You are right, of course. And I'm nothing if not creative ...

For instance, one of my three existing TiVos, a standalone Series 2, currently controls a big dish (C-band/DigiCipher II) satellite system. The TiVo _thinks_ it's controlling a Motorola DCT2000-series cable box, but the RS232 serial commands are actually intercepted by my AMX controller, which emulates the cable box (using software that I wrote).

But just the same, I'm very disappointed to find that the HD TiVo is not as "up-to-date" on customer-requested features as I had expected. Especially considering that the Hughes HTL-HD _does_ have those very same features.

(Sigh.)

The work-around, as you suggested, will probably involve pulling two more 50' RG-6 cables to match the one that currently carries composite video. (That particular LCD panel has no S-video input, but it does have a top-notch comb filter  whereas another 17" widescreen LCD that I own _does_ have an S-video input but the comb filter on its composite input is lousy with "dot-crawl". Go figure!) And I'll have to put a remote-controlled component video switch in the crawl space underneath the kitchen, as the kitchen LCD is wall-mounted.

Much more "pain" than I anticipated, but there is some "gain": it will be possible to watch the master bedroom TiVo in the kitchen _in high-definition_.

*SOME GOOD NEWS*

As near as I can tell from the pictures and specs, the Hughes HD-DVR250 is built inside the exact same case as my existing Hughes HDVR2. That means I can swap out the old unit and swap in the new one without having to order a new faceplate for the Middle Atlantic rack in my master bedroom ...


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *Re: Lack of NTSC capability...
> 
> As the first HD DVR, I think this product is pretty sweet.*


In my previous posts, the references to NTSC were with regard to video from OTA ATSC and DirecTV, not OTA analog NTSC. When digital video is output in analog format on composite and S-video jacks, it is in NTSC format (525 total lines, ~480 visible lines, interlaced, analog).

I couldn't give a fig if the Hughes HD-DVR250 had a terrestrial NTSC _tuner_. Current model non-TiVo HDTV DirecTV receivers, such as the Hughes HTL-HD, _do_ have a terrestrial NTSC tuner, but I never use it ...

Note that the Hughes HD-DVR250 is _not_ the first HD DVR on the market. LG Electronics has had one out since last fall, at least. But it's not a TiVo!


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by MCodanti _
> *Not everyone runs a whole house system. How often does everyone want to watch the same thing? I think putting a separate box for each display device is the best option, and then it would be even better if they all supported HMO. *


You are correct, really. HMO is a better solution.

The LCD panel in my kitchen has no "source components" of its own  but an awful lot of wiring lets it watch whatever is playing in three different locations of my house (usually TiVo, although it could be something else, such as a DVD). Each of the three locations has their own TiVo, so if HMO were universally supported, that could "do the job" (watching DVDs in the kitchen is rarely done and could be scrapped).

But only one of my three TiVos, the standalone Series 2 in my home theater, currently has HMO support available (and not purchased, either  I have no use for MP3s or photos, so why would I spend $100 for a networking option that doesn't talk to any of my other two TiVos?). The other two TiVos are a standalone Series 1, which I have upgraded to two very large hard drives and a TurboNet card, but which will never receive HMO support; and a Series 2 DirecTiVo, for which HMO support _might_ someday be forthcoming (but don't hold your breath) ...


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## Hootydog

...but what is an HMO? I'm sure you are not talking about a type of health insurance carrier?


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Hootydog _
> *...but what is an HMO? I'm sure you are not talking about a type of health insurance carrier?
> 
> *


 Home Media Option; there's an entire forum dedicated to the subject here.


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## chriswood

Hongcho

Your post was just the one that I have been looking for... someone who has "Replay" and "Tivo" experience.

I have pre-ordered the HD-250.  It will be the first time that I have ever seen the Tivo user interface. I have used the RePlay ShowStopper for about 3 years.

I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.

The "linear list" that I hear Tivo uses (to avoid using it's slow grid) seems like a major technological setback.

I have 3 Panasonic HDS20 (that model number might not be correct... but it is close) HD STB's. The "grid" in it's user interface is a bit slow... marginally tolerable. It seems to run as a background task, so it is not very responsive... (again) marginally tolerable.

How would you rate the Tivo interface against the RePlay interface?

Best Regards,
Chris Wood


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## AbMagFab

I've used the Replay. That, and your comments, indicate why the Replay has failed. If you care at all about the guide format, then the DVR device has failed.

The Replay interface is non-intuitive, the weird merging of live and recorded content makes little sense, and the lack of a play-scroll-bar makes it nearly impossible to know where (in the time cycle) you are in watching a show.

When you use a good DVR, like the Tivo, you don't care what the real-time guide looks like. You only use it once in a while, to watch live sports, maybe some other live show, in which case you're just switching to the channel. If you're channel surfing live-TV enough to care about the guide, then you need to get rid of your DVR.

Which you are. So I congratulate you. If you are this positive about Replay, you're going to lose your mind (in a positive way) when you get the Tivo.


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## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by chriswood _
> *Hongcho
> 
> .... I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.
> 
> The "linear list" that I hear Tivo uses (to avoid using it's slow grid) seems like a major technological setback. ..... *


IMO, moving away from the grid will be a step up from what you are used to. If you give it a chance, you might find that you like the TiVo style guide. It offers much more information in the same amount of space, BUT in an intuitive, easily comprehensible format.


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## wmccain

Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do _not_ appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?

In a perfect world, this would not be an issue. But I have a couple of recent-model non-TiVo OTA/DirecTV receivers that use the APG, and it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers _do_ allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)

This is not entirely DirecTV's fault (although I do believe they _could_ do a better job). ATSC broadcasting is in a constant "state of flux", as new stations (mostly independents) come on-line and the existing ATSC broadcasters fiddle with their lineups of subchannels.

In my area, there are numerous gaps and bugs in the APG's list of terrestrial ATSC channels. A partial list:

 Several independent channels are missing altogether.

 Most major channels are broadcasting in HD on their main subchannel, XX-1, and simulcasting in SD on XX-2. But the APG shows only XX-1, typically XX-2 is missing. (However my existing receivers add XX-2 to the guide automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as soon as you tune to XX-1, because the receiver detects the complete subchannel lineup from the PSIP that the station is broadcasting.)

 For nearly a year now, the main PBS station in San Francisco has been broadcasting five subchannels, 9-1 through 9-5, _each with its own unique program schedule_ (for instance, one of them carries "PBS Kids"). For some reason, the APG lists only four of them; the "middle subchannel" 9-3 is missing from the APG. (But 9-3 does get added automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as explained above.)

 There are some outright "bugs" in the APG listings. One is that channel 9's "real physical" ATSC channel number, 30, also appears in the APG as if it were a terrestrial NTSC channel (could this be related to the missing 9-3?). Another is that virtual subchannels 60-1 and 60-2 appear in the APG but both tune to the _same_ physical subchannel, 43-1 (however you can manually add 43-1 and 43-2 and then you can use those numbers to directly tune to both subchannels, which do _not_ simulcast the same programming).

*A Related Question*

Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?

Current models of OTA and OTA/DirecTV ATSC receivers differ on this issue (from one brand to another). Panasonics and Samsungs allow you to tune both ways, but the LG models (marketed as Zenith, LG, Sony, and Hughes) accept only the virtual channel number. [Unless the channel is not remapping itself via the PSIP _and_ does not appear in the APG (which remaps a few terrestrial ATSC channels that do not remap themselves). In that case, the LG models accept the physical channel number.]


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## Hootydog

> _Originally posted by wmccain _
> *Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?
> 
> In a perfect world, this would not be an issue. But I have a couple of recent-model non-TiVo OTA/DirecTV receivers that use the APG, and it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers do allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)
> 
> This is not entirely DirecTV's fault (although I do believe they could do a better job). ATSC broadcasting is in a constant "state of flux", as new stations (mostly independents) come on-line and the existing ATSC broadcasters fiddle with their lineups of subchannels.
> 
> In my area, there are numerous gaps and bugs in the APG's list of terrestrial ATSC channels. A partial list:
> 
> ? Several independent channels are missing altogether.
> 
> ? Most major channels are broadcasting in HD on their main subchannel, XX-1, and simulcasting in SD on XX-2. But the APG shows only XX-1, typically XX-2 is missing. (However my existing receivers add XX-2 to the guide automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as soon as you tune to XX-1, because the receiver detects the complete subchannel lineup from the PSIP that the station is broadcasting.)
> 
> ? For nearly a year now, the main PBS station in San Francisco has been broadcasting five subchannels, 9-1 through 9-5, each with its own unique program schedule (for instance, one of them carries "PBS Kids"). For some reason, the APG lists only four of them; the "middle subchannel" 9-3 is missing from the APG. (But 9-3 does get added automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as explained above.)
> 
> ? There are some outright "bugs" in the APG listings. One is that channel 9's "real physical" ATSC channel number, 30, also appears in the APG as if it were a terrestrial NTSC channel (could this be related to the missing 9-3?). Another is that virtual subchannels 60-1 and 60-2 appear in the APG but both tune to the same physical subchannel, 43-1 (however you can manually add 43-1 and 43-2 and then you can use those numbers to directly tune to both subchannels, which do not simulcast the same programming).
> 
> A Related Question
> 
> Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?
> 
> Current models of OTA and OTA/DirecTV ATSC receivers differ on this issue (from one brand to another). Panasonics and Samsungs allow you to tune both ways, but the LG models (marketed as Zenith, LG, Sony, and Hughes) accept only the virtual channel number. [Unless the channel is not remapping itself via the PSIP and does not appear in the APG (which remaps a few terrestrial ATSC channels that do not remap themselves). In that case, the LG models accept the physical channel number.] *


 I'm having a similar problem in the East Bay. No matter how hard I've tried I can't seem to get program info on 7.1 CBS so I leave 7.2 in my guide just so I can get the programing even though I don't watch 7.2. 5.1 ABC on the other had works fine with the programing.
I currently have a Samsung SIR TS-160 BTW.


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## hongcho

> Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?

The demo unit I've seen did not. But it allowed you to scan the OTA ATSC channels.

> Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?

This will be one for TivoPony to answer.

Hong.


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## chriswood

DCIFRTHS / AbMagFab,

THANK YOU for your responses.

Actually, we only watch about 2% live TV... 98% of what we watch is recorded.

My wife watches TV at two times during the day and we both watch at prime time. The first thing that happens during a "watch period" is to select (from the grid) what we want to record to watch the following day. Then we watch what was recorded the previous day. For gotta-watch shows that come on at a variety of times and channels, the keyword search quickly pulls up those shows (in a list) for the next week... we pick the non-reruns out of the selected list.

Anyway, it sounds like that if we think Replay is great, then we are going to need a defibulator when the Tivo arrives.

Thanks for the info... I feel much better.


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## hongcho

> How would you rate the Tivo interface against the RePlay interface?

Tivo also has a grid guide, but it has always been very slow. Tivo has its own guide style that is responsive (which means that their internal guide database is "optimized" for their guide style and not the grid style).

I think the grid style guide matters most if you don't have many recordings scheduled (that is, scanning for programs to watch/record "live"). But the pattern might change with Tivo.

Also Tivo has a much better "search" interface compared to my RTV-3030 (yes, this thing is a bit old).

It will definitely get some time to get used to the Tivo guide style from the grid guide (it is available, but it is SLOW), but it shouldn't be that difficult.

Hong.


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## Darin

> _Originally posted by wmccain _
> *it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers do allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)*


Same problem here in Atlanta. MAYBE half of my local OTA channels have guide info. The others... the guide seems to have no idea what those channels are (even though they are the "main" channels... none of my local stations multicast multiple programming feeds). While this is a nuisance on an HD receiver, this is a MAJOR issue for a product that differentiates itself by the fact that it's able to record by program ID. I don't know if DirecTV is to blame, my receiver, or my local stations. Probably a combination, which means it'll be even more difficult to get fixed.


----------



## chriswood

It's me again (on a different issue)...

I pre-ordered my HD-250 on Feb 5th. At the time I was not sure if I was going to be in the "first shipment" (their website did not give a clue). 

A week-or-so later I called and asked if I was going to be in the first shipment... after a several second pause (looking at something?), she said "yes". 

So I was happy.

Now I see here that I missed the window by almost 2 weeks.

I also see (according to this forum) that I will pay a (approximate) 3 week delay penalty because I will not be in the first shipment.

A few weeks ago, I asked (in the avsform) if I (who live in California) should cancel that order and place a GG order, so that I could pick the thing up at a store, and because I am closer to the source (Mexico) so I should get it sooner. I could care less about putting 50% down or paying the sales tax.

The few replies I received said I should save the sales tax and keep my original order... the time of receipt should not be more than 2 or 3 days.

At the time, I could have placed the GG order in their first shipment wave. I have no idea what the GG situation is now... but the value electronics situation has deteriorated by about 3 weeks.

Not having the time to read miles of posts on this forum, can someone tell me (or point me - with a link) if the GG first wave is also history?

Chris Wood


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## CraigHB

> It will definitely get some time to get used to the Tivo guide style from the grid guide (it is available, but it is SLOW), but it shouldn't be that difficult.


 For a while, I waffled back and forth between which guide style I thought was better. I finally decided the TiVo guide is better. The grid guide is easier on the eyes, but not as functional. Once you get used to the plain-ness of the TiVo guide, you'll find it contains more information in less space and is easier to use.

- Craig


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## wmccain

> *Originally posted by hongcho *
> _Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?_
> *The demo unit I've seen did not. But it allowed you to scan the OTA ATSC channels.*


I do not understand your answer, as the two statements appear contradictory.

I asked, in effect, if there is _any_ way to add missing ATSC channels or subchannels. You answered "No", but then said that scanning is supported  and that is one of three methods that I know of for adding more ATSC channels/subchannels. Just to be clear, the methods supported by my current non-TiVo receivers, such as the LG LSS-3200A, are:

 A setup menu that lets you initiate a "scan" that checks your OTA antenna for _all_ receivable local ATSC channels.

 A setup menu that lets you add a specific ATSC channel "by number". (The LG version of this then checks that physical channel number and adds the channel only if it is receivable on the antenna. If the station is being remapped via its PSIP, the virtual subchannel number(s) are the ones that are added to the guide, otherwise the physical subchannel number(s) are added.)

 When an ATSC channel is tuned, any subchannels that it is broadcasting that are not already listed in the APG are _automatically_ added. (But most receivers, such as the LG, will not let you tune a channel unless it is already in the "receivable channels" list. So the automatic adding of missing subchannels is useful only if at least one subchannel is listed in the APG or has previously been "found" by one of the two user-initiated setup methods listed above.)

So what, exactly, were you trying to say?


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## hongcho

William,

I don't know why you find my answer contradictory since I consider scanning OTA channels (your first bullet) not to be the same as you adding a channel to, say, 68 (your second bullet). So, it does not let the user to manually add a channel, but it allows channel scanning for OTA. Matter of semantics? Maybe.

I can't really be specific about the extent to which the scanning works. I've only seen "scan" function, but I am not sure what happens after the scan.

Hong.


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## wmccain

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *So, it does not let the user to manually add a channel, but it allows channel scanning for OTA.*


Thanks for the clarification. The fact is, I'm happy to have _any_ method for adding the channels that are missing from the APG, and scanning will do that.

(And if memory serves, the standalone TiVos do not even have scanning for missing terrestrial NTSC channels. You have the accept the list of channels in the TiVo guide for your zip code, which in that case is provided by Tribune Media Services.)

One reason that I don't consider scanning to be much different from manually adding a channel "by number" is that, in the LG-designed STBs, the implementation of the latter is just a special case of the former. That is, "scanning" checks your antenna in the range of channels 2-69, whereas the "manual add" performs the exact same check, but limited in range to the one physical channel number that you specify ...


----------



## pzalkind

AAhitman


Try component video cables, using Y, Pr, and Pb...leave the H and V empty. Works on my 1999 Mits.


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## feldon23

> _Originally posted by chriswood _
> *DCIFRTHS / AbMagFab,
> 
> THANK YOU for your responses.
> 
> Actually, we only watch about 2% live TV... 98% of what we watch is recorded.
> 
> My wife watches TV at two times during the day and we both watch at prime time. The first thing that happens during a "watch period" is to select (from the grid) what we want to record to watch the following day. Then we watch what was recorded the previous day. For gotta-watch shows that come on at a variety of times and channels, the keyword search quickly pulls up those shows (in a list) for the next week... we pick the non-reruns out of the selected list.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like that if we think Replay is great, then we are going to need a defibulator when the Tivo arrives.
> 
> Thanks for the info... I feel much better. *


Looking up shows to record for tomorrow .... _no longer required with TiVo_
Keyword searches .... _only needed for movies/special events you don't already have Season Passes for_
Picking the non-reruns out of the selected list .... _no longer required with TiVo_

The TiVo interface can be dog slow, but I still think it's better than anything anyone else has done.


----------



## Crash_Corrigan

My current Directv STBs are using a wireless phone jack as their connection to a phone line. Will the HDTivo STB be compatible with a wireless phone jack or will I have to get a hardwired phoneline run to the wall behind my a/v equipment?


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## edrock200

That depends, if your current STB's are making calls then you're probably ok, though Tivo's connect at higher speeds than standard DirecTV STB's because they download software updates over the modem. If your wireless jacks are rates for 33.6 or better you should be good. Otherwise you'll either need to hardwire a line or get a better set of wireless jacks.


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## Crash_Corrigan

My E86 and old Sony SAT-A2 work fine with my wireless phone jack, but it is an old wireless phone jack circa 1996. I'll have to check the speed, but I have a feeling it may not be fast enough for TIVOs. I'm encouraged to hear the newer wireless phone jacks may be fast enough for TIVOs. I had been under the impression that a hard-wired landline was needed for any TIVO to operate correctly.


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## BrettStah

Make sure to get a wireless PHONE/MODEM jack... the key is the word MODEM.


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## MCodanti

> _Originally posted by Crash_Corrigan _
> *My E86 and old Sony SAT-A2 work fine with my wireless phone jack, but it is an old wireless phone jack circa 1996. I'll have to check the speed, but I have a feeling it may not be fast enough for TIVOs. I'm encouraged to hear the newer wireless phone jacks may be fast enough for TIVOs. I had been under the impression that a hard-wired landline was needed for any TIVO to operate correctly. *


I've got one of the original wireless phone jacks from when DirecTV first started up, and it worked just fine for my HDVR2 getting the b update. It might have taken longer, but it only took one phone call. Maybe the old ones are better than the cheap new ones.


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## Scott Corbett

Just in case it matters, my SD TiVo has not made a phone call for about 230 days (the modem is fried). Hopefully the HD TiVos will also not really require a constant phone connection.

I get one nag screen per day, but just pressing ENTER makes it go away.

I sometimes order PPV through the web site.


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## joeyg

So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?


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## hongcho

> So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?

No.

There has not even been an announcement except for a technical demo last year (that no manufacturers would pick up).

Hong.


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## feldon23

> So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?


There is no such beast and probably never will be.

I'd look forward to an OpenCable HD TiVo with OTA 8VSB tuners in the next year or so.


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## k2ue

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Diplexing is an imperfect science and can drown out some or all of the DirecTV signals. *


Huh? Complimentary High Pass/Low pass Filters with constant impedance on the common port are hardly an imperfect science -- filter synthesis is quite exact. Since UHF TV ends at 806MHz (750MHz in practice) and the Satellite Downconverter output begins at 950MHz there is no reason why a diplexer should affect Satellite reception, if well designed and built.

It is true that lower pole count diplexers can allow noise and harmonics to bother the lower Satellite transponders in some cases, however one can go to trunk-grade diplexers (rather than drop-grade) with higher pole count, or double-lowpass the TV signal by sending it thru a diplexer with the Satellite port terminated before sending to the actual diplexer.


----------



## feldon23

There are a lot of crappy diplexers and 5x8 multiswitches out there. Diplexing is not always the answer. I am speaking from the testimonies of many people on the DirecTV/TiVo forum who have had to run a separate OTA line to get all their DirecTV channels to work.

I don't make the news, I just report it.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *There are a lot of crappy diplexers and 5x8 multiswitches out there. Diplexing is not always the answer. I am speaking from the testimonies of many people on the DirecTV/TiVo forum who have had to run a separate OTA line to get all their DirecTV channels to work.
> 
> I don't make the news, I just report it.  *


 Then you should be reporting the brand names and model numbers of the diplexers prone to doing crappy things rather than passing along cryptic notes about diplexers not working well -- because diplexers do work well when everything's in spec.


----------



## feldon23

All I'm saying is, if you can run a 5th wire, do it.


----------



## turls

I have had both for over 3 years, I had Replay first, and I thought I still liked that interface for a good 6 months or longer after I had both. Not anymore. Tivo all the way.

But in any case, it isn't like you have a choice. You seriously think the UI is going to be any real concern at all when you have the ability to record HD now, and your ReplayTV HD is probably going to die anytime anyway?

(I have 3 dead Quantum drives on my shelf. I've never had any other HD die at home. One of those was the original ReplayTV drive).



> _Originally posted by chriswood _
> *Your post was just the one that I have been looking for... someone who has "Replay" and "Tivo" experience.
> 
> I have pre-ordered the HD-250. It will be the first time that I have ever seen the Tivo user interface. I have used the RePlay ShowStopper for about 3 years.
> 
> I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.*


----------



## rogo

I just don't believe there is any reason to run a 5th wire. (Yes, if you can, do it).

Any halfway decent diplexer on a single line, is going to work with miniscule signal strenth loss (something like 0.5 dB)....

The diplexer on a 5 x 8 that then splits the OTA signal 8 ways is a much different story and will fail for a lot more people.

Mark


----------



## AbMagFab

I agree, if you can run a 5th wire, do it. It just makes all sorts of diagnostics, etc., easier.


----------



## HDTivo4prez

Feldon,

I know the HD Tivo will come standard with a WD250GB HDD. Do you know if it is upgradeable? Can you install another drive in the system? Also, is the drive EIDE or SATA?


----------



## AbMagFab

Just speculating here (wth), but given that:

1) The OS is still Linux
2) The version of the Tivo software is still pretty much the same I think (or it's been reported not to have any 4.x features like folders)
3) The hardware is supposed to be pretty much the same
4) The box looks pretty much the same

Then I conclude that, at worst, it's like the DTivo2, and we need to buy a replacement IDE cable, a power splitter, and some form of HDD mount. And a HDD of course.

The main question is whether the current add-a-drive methods (a.k.a. BlessTivo, etc.) will work. And I'd guess they will since I think those are more Linux operations than Tivo software operations. I wonder about the >134GB limit (or whatever it was)?


----------



## bigpuma

> _Originally posted by AbMagFab _
> *Just speculating here (wth), but given that:
> 
> 1) The OS is still Linux
> 2) The version of the Tivo software is still pretty much the same I think (or it's been reported not to have any 4.x features like folders)
> 3) The hardware is supposed to be pretty much the same
> 4) The box looks pretty much the same
> 
> Then I conclude that, at worst, it's like the DTivo2, and we need to buy a replacement IDE cable, a power splitter, and some form of HDD mount. And a HDD of course.
> 
> The main question is whether the current add-a-drive methods (a.k.a. BlessTivo, etc.) will work. And I'd guess they will since I think those are more Linux operations than Tivo software operations. I wonder about the >134GB limit (or whatever it was)? *


The other consideration might be heat. With 2 250 GB HDD I assume it will get quite warm inside so you might need a better fan or some other way to cool the machine. I think weaknees will probably be checking ASAP to see if it is upgradeable and if so providing one way to do it.


----------



## hongcho

Space, heat and power.

But we will soon know after someone has his/her hands on one.

Hong.


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## tivoupgrade

We are still waiting for ours to arrive. Given the 250GB drive that will be in it, it seems LBA48 support will be native as it is in the Pioneer DVD burning units. 

Stay tuned.

FYI - we will probably scramble to get things tested and working as soon as our units arrive, however we are not going to immediately release an upgrade product for this unit until we are certain it is supportable and performs as expected.

Stay tuned,
Lou


----------



## HDTivo4prez

thanks


----------



## stugrief

Feldon, nice post. Very informative. A few questions for you, and let me preface my questions with a personal disclaimer that I am new to this, so I'm sure my questions are rather uninformed. But here goes...

I have an 18x20 dish w/dual LNBs w/2 DirecTV/TiVo receivers and 1 plain DirecTV receiver. I understand that for HD I need the Sat C kit. Here's where I'm confused: With the Sat C kit, there will now be 5 cables coming from the antenna. The built in 4x4 multiswitch can't handle the 5th input. Your diagram with a cascading 4x8 multiswitch, which I'd like to install, shows 5 inputs going from the antenna into the 4x4 multiswitch. What am I missing?

In addition to adding the Sat C, I'd like to add an antenna for off air HD programming. I understand from antennaweb.org that I can get away with a small multidirectional antenna. Is there a way to install this at/near the dish and connect the antenna to the cascading multiswitches? If so, is this a 6th input to the multiswitch? Also, any recommendations for a small multidirectional OA antenna?

Thanks, and apologies if these questions don't make any sense!


----------



## dswallow

The SatC kit includes a combiner that will be placed in line with one of the outputs of the 119° LNB. So only 4 inputs go to the multiswitch from LNB's.

A 5xN multiswitch provides for connection of an over-the-air antenna on the 5th input, which then is diplexed into all N outputs of the multiswitch. At the receiver(s) needing the antenna, you use a diplexer to split the satellite and over-the-air antenna signals out so they can go to their respective inputs on the receiver.

Avoid Terk antenna's; except in the most limited circumstances, they're junk. If you need something compact and you're within 20-30 miles of all your TV stations transmitters, look at an antenna like the Winegard SS-1000 Square Shooter: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/squareshooter.htm


----------



## stugrief

Thanks, Doug. Very helpful.

If I get a 5x8 multiswitch (is Terk's ok?) then what benefit is there in cascading a 4x4 into the 5x8 vs. tossing the 4x4 and going straight from dish and OA antenna into the 5x8?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by stugrief _
> *Thanks, Doug. Very helpful.
> 
> If I get a 5x8 multiswitch (is Terk's ok?) then what benefit is there in cascading a 4x4 into the 5x8 vs. tossing the 4x4 and going straight from dish and OA antenna into the 5x8? *


 If you've got the old elliptical dish with attached 4x4 multiswitch, I'd toss the 4x4 multiswitch. It just becomes another point of failure for you to worry about.

Phase III dish owners don't have much choice since the multiswitch is built into the LNB assembly.

The Terk BMS-58 is fine. I have that one myself. <$72.00 at www.buy.com.


----------



## stugrief

Thanks, Doug. I think I'm almost there...

I'll add a SatC kit and Winegard SS-1000 OA antenna; scrap the 4x4 MS that came with my dish; feed the satellite lines and the OA antenna into a Terk BMS-58; and then use a diplexer at whatever location I want to extract the OA signal to feed into an HD tuner (e.g., Hughes DVR-HD250).

Is that all right? Any challenge aligning the SatC? And diplexer you'd recommend?


----------



## kbmyers

Time of Order: 2/14/2004 2:50:31 PM
Order Type: Email
Order ID: 13451

Currently in the *other* camp with a couple of ReplayTVs. Delayed getting HD until I could record shows. Getting the new dish installed this weekend - now I can't wait to get my HD Tivo!

Kent


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by stugrief _
> *Thanks, Doug. I think I'm almost there...
> 
> I'll add a SatC kit and Winegard SS-1000 OA antenna; scrap the 4x4 MS that came with my dish; feed the satellite lines and the OA antenna into a Terk BMS-58; and then use a diplexer at whatever location I want to extract the OA signal to feed into an HD tuner (e.g., Hughes DVR-HD250).
> 
> Is that all right? Any challenge aligning the SatC? And diplexer you'd recommend? *


 If you're already getting signals fine from 101° and 119°, the SatC kit is plug-and-play; you'll be aligned.

No particular recommendations on diplexers; there are different levels of quality, but I don't think there's a really major spread between them; just get one from wherever you get the multiswitch.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by kbmyers _
> *Time of Order: 2/14/2004 2:50:31 PM
> Order Type: Email
> Order ID: 13451
> 
> Currently in the *other* camp with a couple of ReplayTVs. Delayed getting HD until I could record shows. Getting the new dish installed this weekend - now I can't wait to get my HD Tivo!
> 
> Kent *


 Kent, I added your info to the chart, but just so you know, this wasn't the thread everybody's posting this stuff in.


----------



## edrock200

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Kent, I added your info to the chart, but just so you know, this wasn't the thread everybody's posting this stuff in.  *


Uh oh Kent, better move that post cause Feldon's on post patrol.


----------



## GreyGhost00

First of all, great FAQ and very helpful.

I was hoping to clarify what remote the HD Tivo will ship with. Will it be the standard peanut remote, or will it have any sort of universal capabilities.

The HD Tivo will be replacing the Samsung TS-160 in my HT setup, and I currently use that remote to control the Receiver, TV and Pioneer amp.

If there's no capability to control the Pioneer, I'll have to go with a universal solution such as the Harmony.

Ease of use for the wife is a big factor


----------



## tivoupgrade

> _Originally posted by GreyGhost00 _
> *First of all, great FAQ and very helpful.
> 
> I was hoping to clarify what remote the HD Tivo will ship with. Will it be the standard peanut remote, or will it have any sort of universal capabilities.
> 
> The HD Tivo will be replacing the Samsung TS-160 in my HT setup, and I currently use that remote to control the Receiver, TV and Pioneer amp.
> 
> If there's no capability to control the Pioneer, I'll have to go with a universal solution such as the Harmony.
> 
> Ease of use for the wife is a big factor  *


Can't tell you from experience here, however considering the packaging, and what's been going on with all the different units out there, its likely to be a peanut remote and likely to respond to the same codes as your existing peanut remote.


----------



## duffin

A question mark just popped up above my head because I don't recall reading about the following in this FAQ thread.

My UTV works like other DirecTV DVR's where it needs 2 coax runs from the dish to feed 2 sat tuners.

But with the Hughes HD-Tivo, how do you feed two OTA tuners? Does it take a single coax and split in the box or do I need to be thinking external splitter?

GreyGhost00 - Our household with the toughest of WAF just switched to the Harmony and love it! ValueElectronics.com has the best deal (under accessories).


----------



## maharg18

> _Originally posted by duffin _
> *
> But with the Hughes HD-Tivo, how do you feed two OTA tuners? Does it take a single coax and split in the box or do I need to be thinking external splitter?
> 
> *


It's been reported that it is split internally, so you only need 1 OTA feed.


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## AbMagFab

To be clear, there are 2 coax for the satellite feeds (dual tuner, one if you only want single tuner I'd guess), and one OTA coax for OTA HD.

Total of 3 coax into the back of the HD Tivo.


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## hongcho

> Total of 3 coax into the back of the HD Tivo.

And nothing (no coax, that is) comes out! 

BTW, it's quite annoying that you are one ahead of me. 

Hong.


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## Baracuda

Hitachi just announced a 400gig Deskstar. The article specifically mentioned PVRs as it's target


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Baracuda _
> *Hitachi just announced a 400gig Deskstar. The article specifically mentioned PVRs as it's target  *


 I'm not sure I'll ever buy a Hitachi (aka IBM) drive again in my lifetime. Way too much experience recently with Deskstar drive failures.


----------



## Baracuda

Well, the HD makers all have their day in the sun, then overproduce and go to hell. I agree with you. I would not want to buy a "DeathStar" at this point.


----------



## Tom in OH

Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event?


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## tivoupgrade

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event? *


No reason to think it won't given that DirecTV/TiVo combo boxes to date have had that capability.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event? *


 Yes it can. It really can't help but do so as it's recording the digital stream as-is from DirecTV or OTA ATSC. For that matter, the DirecTV SD DVR's can do it too.


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## Tom in OH

excellent -- was hoping it would.... thx

I'm also hoping it will output the 5.1 stream though the HDMI and the optical out at same time. I'm not sure which connection I'll be using for audio with my system.


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## stugrief

After all the help from this and the pre-order thread, I've now ordered the $99 HD upgrade from DirecTV, and placed a deposit on the HR10-250 at Tweeter.

DirecTV insisted that I commit to the HD package for 1 year, but when I told the CSR that I really didn't want a higher monthly, she agreed to give me the HBO and Showtime parts of my service free for 6 months each, which pretty much covers the HD package for the year.

The Tweeter CSR told me they're expecting an initial shipment of 80 HR10-250s on April 15. Doesn't seem realistic, but one can hope. I am #30 on their list. Price is $999.99 but they have a price guarantee for 30 days. Although they won't match web prices, they will match other retailers like CC.

Thanks to all for the amazingly helpful info in these threads!


----------



## feldon23

FAQ Update:

-Added quote about standalone TiVo from TiVo.com.
-Changed model # from *Hughes HD-DVR250* to *DIRECTV HR10-250*.
-Added *Zenith Silver Sensor* antenna
-Updated *CBS/Fox* national HD/ED comments
-Updated 'Programming' section to mention *NFL Sunday Ticket, NBA TV, Spice HD*
-Added *Spice HD* to 'What's available in HDTV' section
-Reworded *Fox* 'Programming' section
-Split *HBO* and *Showtime* into 2 sections under 'Programming' section

Keep the suggestions rolling folks.


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## dlott

Looks like the FCC is going to push digital a little faster than most of us have thought:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2004-03-15-digitaltv_x.htm

"The plan would require the pay-TV (Cable/DBS) services to convert digital signals to analog so they could be viewed on analog TV sets, the kind most people now have, FCC officials told USA TODAY.

That would let the government reclaim broadcasters' analog TV channels in 2006 so they can be auctioned to wireless firms, paving the way for new and improved services and raising billions for the U.S. Treasury. Also, police and fire agencies are expected to use the airwaves to improve spotty radio systems."

"Under the plan, the government in 2006 would immediately reclaim broadcasters' analog channels in the dozens of markets where cable and satellite serve 85% of homes. The "must-carry" rules would then apply to broadcasters' digital signals. And the pay-TV systems would be required to convert digital signals to analog for consumers with analog sets.

The providers would still be able to supply pure digital signals to people with digital sets, FCC officials say.

Broadcasters, though, worry that consumers who don't have cable or satellite would have to shell out more than $100 for a digital-to-analog converter box, though FCC officials say a subsidy program could be arranged."


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## feldon23

Have to think about this one, but it seems like what I've been hoping would happen. When I first read it, I thought they meant that cable companies would be required to put more digital channels back on the analog tier but now I think they mean making sure that analog TVs can always pick up a good package of local and national channels.

This also pushes Must Carry for digital AND analog local TV stations a step further.

For everyone with a regular TV hooked up to analog cable or rabbit ears let's sell them a heavily subsidized $30-50 adapter box that lets them watch a good chunk of channels on that TV. And don't charge them a monthly fee for those TVs.


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by dlott _
> *Looks like the FCC is going to push digital a little faster than most of us have thought:
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2004-03-15-digitaltv_x.htm
> *


For those who didn't follow the link, this is only a plan *being considered* at this time.


----------



## AbMagFab

And remember, analog is just 480i. Pretty much any set-top box has some form of 480i output, including every HD box out there.

Not such a big deal.

Cable companies, however, have adopted a "give away free" model, which is great for consumers, but will kill the cable companies in the long run. They can't possibly pay for all this hardware at $0-$10 per month, now including DVR's in some markets.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

A great thread, thanks to Feldon23. After reading this I am confident that DirecTV/TiVo will introduce a product that works well right from the start as the standard definition version did. My only complaint is no firewire but maybe the second generation will add that if the Dish Network PVR921 with firewire outperforms this PVR in the marketplace.

Now to search for the best place to put my order in.

Chris


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## feldon23

FAQ Update:

-Added logos for each category
-Split Standalone and OpenCable
-Improved # of tuners in DirecTV section
-Added 'simultaneous output' comments.
-Improved visibility of 'No HMO' comments
-Corrected 'American Television Standards Committee' to 'Advanced Television Systems Committee'

I guess I need to start writing a little FAQ about what cable and other providers are offering.


----------



## martialman7

I have an "HD Compatible" tv that would ordinarily need a receiver. Will the Hughes HD-DVR250 act as a receiver as well or would I also need a receiver along with the Tivo?


----------



## neilaevans

The HDTivo IS the receiver.


----------



## slocko

Martial, 

The HD-Tivo would not be able to record HD, if it wasn't an HD receiver.


----------



## martialman7

Good news! Thanks.


----------



## feldon23

_A DirecTV with TiVo HDTV receiver is the only equipment (other than a dish with appropriate multiswitch) you need to receive and record HDTV programming._


----------



## Bigg

What is the real deal with the digital broadcasting? i've heard about an 80% number that is it is not reached, the law will not happen. It is quite ridiculous though to stop broadcating in a way that has been used for 60 years. All of those little 2.6' tvs will be unusable, PIP and other functions will be unusable, and there aren't even any digital boxes out there that aren't HD and have a pricetag to reflect it. Requiring all stations to broadcast in digital, and giving them the option to get rid of the analog makes sense, but outlawing it? Someone needs to send some drug dogs to sniff out the marajauna these guys at the FCC are smoking. VCRs, TiVos and pc tuner cards would need converter boxes. these would have to be ir blasted without the possibility of twin channel watching w/o multiple boxes. AND the range of these digital is in many cases shorter, so people would no longer be able to watch the news from 5 different cities. Although many people will have digital sets, most of those willl still have analog second and third sets. THIS LAW IS RIDICULOUS!!!! maybe HD for 10% of all channels, but not THIS.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *What is the real deal with the digital broadcasting? i've heard about an 80% number that is it is not reached, the law will not happen. It is quite ridiculous though to stop broadcating in a way that has been used for 60 years. All of those little 2.6' tvs will be unusable, PIP and other functions will be unusable, and there aren't even any digital boxes out there that aren't HD and have a pricetag to reflect it. Requiring all stations to broadcast in digital, and giving them the option to get rid of the analog makes sense, but outlawing it? Someone needs to send some drug dogs to sniff out the marajauna these guys at the FCC are smoking. VCRs, TiVos and pc tuner cards would need converter boxes. these would have to be ir blasted without the possibility of twin channel watching w/o multiple boxes. AND the range of these digital is in many cases shorter, so people would no longer be able to watch the news from 5 different cities. Although many people will have digital sets, most of those willl still have analog second and third sets. THIS LAW IS RIDICULOUS!!!! maybe HD for 10% of all channels, but not THIS. *


 In sufficient quantity the digital tuner won't be very expensive at all. But getting to the point where this happens is the problem; in a price-competitive industry with very small margins, manufacturers aren't usually interested in being the first out there to force people into a new tuner. But if everyone has to do it at the same time, it might be possible.

Yes, equipment will become unusable without a separate receiver; that's why a phase-in period was established. Digital television is not something brand new sprung on us today and given 2 yearsw to completely replace analog broadcasts; this stuff has been in existence for years, and many stations have broadcast digitally for years. We're just now reaching a period where people can actually believe a critical mass can occur.


----------



## Bigg

Certainly people are getting digital receivers and watching it in digital, but there are still millions of people who want to use NTSC tuners.


----------



## hongcho

I think cable companies will still do NTSC (analog), looking at how OpenCable specs are written.

And "the real deal" as far as the intent of the transition is for the better utilization of the air wave frequencies. That usually translates to more money for some people. 

Hong.


----------



## dswallow

I hadn't thought much about the little portable television receivers; that's probably one device that's just gonna be obsoleted. I doubt anyone's going to produce a little portable ATSC receiver for them.


----------



## feldon23

Well already ATSC receivers are pretty damn small. 5 inches by 3 inches by 3/4 inch surface mounted on an HDTV tuner PCI card.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Well already ATSC receivers are pretty damn small. 5 inches by 3 inches by 3/4 inch surface mounted on an HDTV tuner PCI card. *


 That's a lot bigger than many little portable TV's I've seen.

Remember Seiko's watch TV, for example? It had a little battery pack with the tuner, but still was tiny compared to 5x3x3/4".


----------



## Bigg

Who wants to pay them for a few channels to pip and such. Anyway, this new regulation is UNFAIR to every person in this country who owns an NTSC tuner. Which is like 250 million of us. theres probably like 400million or more tuners in the country. the numbers just don't add up for this regulation to work. I hope that there are not enough people with cable/sat to make this work, or someone stops the pot smoking i the FCC offices.


----------



## feldon23

Bigg,

You're completely full of crap. There are not 250 million people watching TV with rabbit ears. Something like 25% have a TV that depends on OTA and something like 15% have their primary TV depending on OTA. For those people, a $30-50 adapter should be made available to tune in ATSC.

85% of the population has cable/satellite.


----------



## dswallow

I own at least 6 NTSC tuners, and I can't wait for NTSC to go bye bye. So make that 249,999,994.


----------



## Bigg

there are 250million people with NTSC tuners that will be obsolete. A LOT of people have rabbit ears in combo with D*/ E* or on a second TV that they don;t want to pay mirroring on, or they don't want to run a cable to. Also, a LOT of people have those little 5" tvs that have antennas, or the little LCD ones. if you don't like NTSC, don't use it. simple as that. if you do, do.An adapter that adds another ugly thingy to your entertainment center, doesn;t allow pip and is herder to control than the integrated tuner in a tivo or vcr.


----------



## QZ1

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *There are not 250 million people watching TV with rabbit ears. Something like 25% have a TV that depends on OTA and something like 10% have their primary TV depending on OTA. For those people, a $30-50 adapter should be made available to tune in ATSC.
> 
> 75% of the population has cable/satellite. *


Periodically, articles are quoted at AVS Forum with the statistics. IIRC, they don't calculate how many people have OTA, but they have said that 15% have OTA _only_, and 85% have cable/satellite; of course some of the 85% also have OTA, in addition to the 15%.


----------



## hongcho

> Anyway, this new regulation is UNFAIR to every person in this country who owns an NTSC tuner.

I don't know whether that number is 250 million or smaller. I just think that you can't possibly represent "every person in this country who owns an NTSC tuner". Maybe just you. 

Come to think of it, I do have three NTSC tuners and two of them, I actually do use for tuning to an NTSC channel.

Hong.


----------



## hongcho

Oh, and BTW, FCC would probably be the right place to complain about the issue, unless Mr. Powell visits this site often, of course. 

Hong.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *Oh, and BTW, FCC would probably be the right place to complain about the issue, unless Mr. Powell visits this site often, of course.  *


 Well, he does have a TiVo...


----------



## jmrife

Sooner rather than later, NTSC television broadcasting is going away. It matters not, at this point, whether it is fair or unfair, wise or unwise.

Where where all the defenders of NTSC in 1998?


----------



## mattn2

Great FAQ Feldon,

FYI, I notice that you mention 23 O&O from Fox but only list 22 (Dallas is listed twice). 

Thanks for the service!

# Matt


----------



## feldon23

Hmm. I'll have to look into that. Thanks!


----------



## madpoet

Sorry if I missed this... anyone know if the box will output on all outputs at the same time? For instance, will both component and DVI output together?


----------



## feldon23

I guess I need to add this to the FAQ.

You can have EITHER the Component OR DVI (HDCP) active. And the S-Video/Composite are only active when the whole receiver is set to 480i output.


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *You can have EITHER the Component OR DVI (HDCP) active. And the S-Video/Composite is are only active when the whole receiver is set to 480i output. *


BIG mistakes (sigh).

How easy is it to switch between the component and DVI outputs? (I know about the front panel button for 480i format.)


----------



## feldon23

Probably 3 menus deep. Why? How often would you want to do this?


----------



## madpoet

Ouch... that sucks. Trying to justify my WVHS vcr . Still I guess I could use it to offload shows to tape that I want to archive but am not as picky about quality.


----------



## feldon23

Switching between 1080i/720p/480p/480i? Press UP on the TiVo remote.


----------



## madpoet

No, switching between component and DVI... but now I'm getting confused


----------



## feldon23

Nobody knows for sure. I just guessed 2 posts ago that it would be 3 menus deep.


----------



## madpoet

Eh, ok. Something I'd set up to do overnight then... switch to component, play the show through to the vrc, then back to DVI for day to day viewing. Not terribly convenient. I'd prefer the Voom method of all outputs active at once, but oh well.


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Probably 3 menus deep. Why? How often would you want to do this? *


Whenever she walks from the master bedroom to the kitchen or vice versa.

Right now the HD-capable 17" LCD in the kitchen can view any of three TiVos (home theater, MBR, her office). The MBR TiVo is used the most  it's a 2-tuner DirecTV model which I intend to replace with the new HDTV TiVo. The existing MBR feed to the kitchen is analog NTSC, and I would have been happy to keep it that way were it not for the lack of concurrent composite/S-video in the new TiVo. So I was planning to upgrade the feed to the kitchen to component video, whilst using the DVI for the (planned) new 32" LCD in the MBR itself.

I guess I just _assumed_ that both the component and DVI were always active, even though the NTSC outputs are not. (After all, they are both the same high def resolution.) That is, until I was shocked by your post earlier today ...


----------



## Bigg

Component video splitter...


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Nobody knows for sure. I just guessed 2 posts ago that it would be 3 menus deep. *


If you aren't sure about that, how sure are you that the component and DVI outputs are not concurrently active?


----------



## acroswel

From what other people posted I thought the composite and s-video outputs are active at the same time. But they're both only active when the output resolution is 480i.


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by wmccain _
> *If you aren't sure about that, how sure are you that the component and DVI outputs are not concurrently active? *


Everything in the FAQ is from official sources. The Component vs. DVI thing is from a TiVo employee.


----------



## BBobley

Any news on the quality of the 8VSB tuner in the HD Tivo? Have any of the beta testers reported on how it compares to other HD receivers in terms of its ability to lock in on OTA digital signals?

Pete Putnam has run some very interesting articles in which he compares different receivers and antennas:

http://www.projectorexpert.com/

I'm hoping the Tivo is a bit more sensitive and less prone to multipath problems than my Toshiba DST-3000.

Brett


----------



## exchguy

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but is anyone aware if this unit will contain a Signal meter for OTA tuning? In my opinion, no signal meter = no sale!

thanks,
Exchguy


----------



## MCodanti

We have heard from a good source that it does indeed have an OTA signal meter.


----------



## Tom in OH

not sure if we've talked about this yet but, do u guys think the HD-dvr250 will output any format regardless of the format recorded? In other words, will it upconvert a 480i recording to 720p or 1080i ?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *not sure if we've talked about this yet but, do u guys think the HD-dvr250 will output any format regardless of the format recorded? In other words, will it upconvert a 480i recording to 720p or 1080i ? *


 Yes. And yes, it's already been talked about.


----------



## Tom in OH

very good Doug -- u passed.

just testing your infinite wisdom...


----------



## hongcho

> I'm hoping the Tivo is a bit more sensitive and less prone to multipath problems than my Toshiba DST-3000.

I guess your experience with DST-3000 hasn't been the same as me. My DST-3000 with CM4228 had been wonderful. I am expecting HR10-250 to be just as good.

Hong.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *> My DST-3000 with CM4228 had been wonderful.
> 
> Hong. *


just curious - how close are u to the broadcast towers? I'm hooking up an ota this week for use with the HD-dvr250.

Thx, Tom


----------



## chadfetter

When is the latest date that these will be released to the public?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by chadfetter _
> *When is the latest date that these will be released to the public? *


 The first shipments begin 3/31. It'll probably be towards the end of April or early May when they're more readily available.


----------



## hongcho

Tom, I am about 40 miles off, I think.

Hong.


----------



## whsbuss

Does anyone know if the HR10-250 will indicate the format source (480i/730p/1080i) being received? If so, will the front panel LEDs indicate the format or maybe on-screen?

Its hard to remember what locals broadcast what format (ABC,NBC,PBS.etc.)


----------



## AbMagFab

Do you really care about the source format? Won't you just fix it so the HD Tivo outputs at 720p or 1080i?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by whsbuss _
> *Does anyone know if the HR10-250 will indicate the format source (480i/730p/1080i) being received? If so, will the front panel LEDs indicate the format or maybe on-screen?
> 
> Its hard to remember what locals broadcast what format (ABC,NBC,PBS.etc.) *


 It would appear the front panel has lights to indicate the output format selected: http://www.cesweb.org/shared_files/innovations/innovations_2004/2787/mainphoto2787.jpg


----------



## whsbuss

> _Originally posted by AbMagFab _
> *Do you really care about the source format? Won't you just fix it so the HD Tivo outputs at 720p or 1080i? *


Well if I set the default HD Tivo output format to 720p and my local OTA CBS is broadcasting in 1080i I would want the output in 1080i, right?

THe HLN-467W is a native 720p display.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by AbMagFab _
> *Do you really care about the source format? Won't you just fix it so the HD Tivo outputs at 720p or 1080i? *


 Most will; those that want to let another device do stretching on 4:3 material would more than likely be the ones needing to switch between format.

The same would apply to those that want another device to handle the output format conversions for 16:9 material, though I'd expect there'd be less benefit for most people over just letting the HD DVR do it.

As an example, my Fujitsu P50 plasma display can do non-linear stretching on 480i and 480p signals only; so unless I want to watch all 4:3 material with sidebars or linearly stretched (and I don't), I'll be switching formats depending on the source material that was recorded.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by whsbuss _
> *Well if I set the default HD Tivo output format to 720p and my local OTA CBS is broadcasting in 1080i I would want the output in 1080i, right?
> 
> THe HLN-467W is a native 720p display. *


 No you won't have to switch, the TiVo will handle that sort of conversion. Whatever the unit receives will be sent to the display device in the output format you select. If your HLN-476W is a native 720p display, you'll probably want to leave the DVR outputting 720p. If your display can do conversions on the signal on its own, and those conversions are different than what are built into the DVR, then you might want to switch output formats at times.


----------



## whsbuss

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *It would appear the front panel has lights to indicate the output format selected: http://www.cesweb.org/shared_files/innovations/innovations_2004/2787/mainphoto2787.jpg *


Yea, it sure looks that way. And using the UP arrow on the peanut would toggle through the LEDs.


----------



## whsbuss

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *No you won't have to switch, the TiVo will handle that sort of conversion. Whatever the unit receives will be sent to the display device in the output format you select. If your HLN-476W is a native 720p display, you'll probably want to leave the DVR outputting 720p. If your display can do conversions on the signal on its own, and those conversions are different than what are built into the DVR, then you might want to switch output formats at times. *


The HLN-467 uses the Faroudja Film mode to do all format conversions. I gotta believe this is a better system than the HD Tivo has. So I would want any 1080i source fed directly to the HDTV DVI input.


----------



## hongcho

> Does anyone know if the HR10-250 will indicate the format source (480i/730p/1080i) being received?

I am not sure about the source format (is this important?). It is supposed to indicate what the output format is.

Hong.


----------



## hongcho

> So I would want any 1080i source fed directly to the HDTV DVI input.

Then set your HR10-250's output format to 1080i.

Hong.


----------



## whsbuss

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *> So I would want any 1080i source fed directly to the HDTV DVI input.
> 
> Then set your HR10-250's output format to 1080i.
> 
> Hong. *


That's my point. When the source format is 1080i, I would want the HD Tivo output format to match, i.e. 1080i. But when the source format is 720p, I want the output format to match. That's why it would be helpful for some sort of source format indicator. My current Moto OTA receiver has it on the display screen.


----------



## hongcho

My Toshiba DST-3000 didn't have one. And I haven't seen any report of HR10-250 having one for the source format.

There have been several requests from others about adding some sort of source-format-to-output-format mapping configuration, but I doubt we will see that soon from DirecTV/TiVo.

Hong.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *My Toshiba DST-3000 didn't have one. And I haven't seen any report of HR10-250 having one for the source format.
> 
> There have been several requests from others about adding some sort of source-format-to-output-format mapping configuration, but I doubt we will see that soon from DirecTV/TiVo. *


 For that we have the TiVo Underground. I'm sure someone will figure out a way, if it's possible at all.


----------



## webini

Here's a question that I have not seen an answer for. I apologize in advance if it has already been answered!

What about a cable input? I still use basic cable for the local channels that are not yet broadcasting in digital. So I would have 2 D* inputs, one OTA input. What about the cable input? Is there one? Or do I diplex?

Mark


----------



## midas

Nope, can't hook up your cable to it.


----------



## webini

Not even through a diplexer? This is a show stopper for me (WAF).


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by webini _
> *Not even through a diplexer? This is a show stopper for me (WAF).  *


 The HD DVR has no way to encode analog signals. It can only deal with OTA digital and DirecTV inputs since those are already encoded. Remember, even "live TV" on the DVR is actually recorded on the hard drive and played back immediately, so an encoded signal is an absolute must.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by webini _
> *Here's a question that I have not seen an answer for. I apologize in advance if it has already been answered!
> 
> What about a cable input? I still use basic cable for the local channels that are not yet broadcasting in digital.
> 
> Mark *


can u connect your analog cable directly to your ANT input on your tv and use the tv's tuner for cable channels?


----------



## feldon23

Keeping in mind that the Channel Master 4228 is an awesome antenna. It more than makes up for any limitations in the Toshiba.


----------



## edrock200

Yes thanks to DSwallow's advice I got a CM 4228 antenna and a CM 7777 pre-amp. This combination got me the big 4, PBS and the WB in HD and I live far from the towers. My other antenna and preamp just couldn't do it.


----------



## Tom in OH

edrock200 -

I'm installing an ota also, how far away are u from the towers?... just curious.


----------



## midas

Just remember, the CM4228 is a UHF only antenna. If you need VHF, it won't do it.


----------



## rogelah

How are the OTA channels distinguished from the local channels. On my Sony SAT-HD100 locals are just 2, 4, 6,... and the OTAs are 2.1, 4.1,6.1,...


----------



## feldon23

Analog locals are just 2, 4, 6
Digital locals are just 2.1, 4.1, 6.1

Or if they get really fancy, 2-1, 4-1, and 6-1.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by midas _
> *Just remember, the CM4228 is a UHF only antenna. If you need VHF, it won't do it. *


good point, I had to go with a gigantic 14 footer just to pick up NBC (channel 2). I much would've rather bought the smallish uhf type.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by midas _
> *Just remember, the CM4228 is a UHF only antenna. If you need VHF, it won't do it. *


 It can be good enough up around VHF12 and VHF13 though. If the signal is sufficiently strong from the transmitter.


----------



## edrock200

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *edrock200 -
> 
> I'm installing an ota also, how far away are u from the towers?... just curious. *


Well I just looked it up again and I'm not as far as I thought, about 30 miles or so. I had a heck of a time getting the WB, just ask DSwallow about my PM harassment.  I had a VHF/UHF antenna in my addic, not sure which model, and a winegard ap-8700 preamp and the WB would not come in, the big 4 would but with problems.

Once I got the CM7777 the big 4 came in fine but the WB was still a no go. Once I got the CM 4228 antenna I got the WB, PBS and several other local digital channels in addition to the big 4.

The biggest time consumer though was aiming. It took me forever to get it right and it could still use some tweaking. I will order a mount with rotator so I can tweak it at my tv. For me aiming was hard because being in the addic seems to affect the signal.

My wife was downstairs watching the TV (the signal meter on the ts360 is crap so we had to actually watch the channels) and I was in the addic aiming. Sometimes standing in certain parts of the addic would make a channel come in whereas standing in other parts would weaken it. And it's not areas you would think, I wasn't standing in front of it or behind it, I would be off to the side or far in the corners. I'd get all the channels to come in, then I'd leave the addic and and soon as I exited the signal would get blocky. So it took a lot of guessing and checking. I almost fell off my ladder like 3 times.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *Well I just looked it up again and I'm not as far as I thought, about 30 miles or so. I had a heck of a time getting the WB, just ask DSwallow about my PM harassment.  I had a VHF/UHF antenna in my addic, not sure which model, and a winegard ap-8700 preamp and the WB would not come in, the big 4 would but with problems.
> 
> Once I got the CM7777 the big 4 came in fine but the WB was still a no go. Once I got the CM 4228 antenna I got the WB, PBS and several other local digital channels in addition to the big 4.
> 
> The biggest time consumer though was aiming. It took me forever to get it right and it could still use some tweaking. I will order a mount with rotator so I can tweak it at my tv. For me aiming was hard because being in the addic seems to affect the signal.
> 
> My wife was downstairs watching the TV (the signal meter on the ts360 is crap so we had to actually watch the channels) and I was in the addic aiming. Sometimes standing in certain parts of the addic would make a channel come in whereas standing in other parts would weaken it. And it's not areas you would think, I wasn't standing in front of it or behind it, I would be off to the side or far in the corners. I'd get all the channels to come in, then I'd leave the addic and and soon as I exited the signal would get blocky. So it took a lot of guessing and checking. I almost fell off my ladder like 3 times.  *


 What kind of insulation was in your attic, Ed? You sound a little stuffed up; you keep saying addic.


----------



## Tom in OH

Ed, glad u came thru your antenna aiming without any injuries, sounds like it was quite a job. It reminds me of aiming the Phase 3 dish last Spring on my roof. I held the cordless phone w/earpiece and the wifey watched the signal meter. Sort of fun in a way but tedious. 

I guess being in the attic will help prevent corrosion and u certainly won't have any trouble with wind but I bet your signal strength would jump if the antenna was outside. U must've been acting as a reflector to the signal given your different results while moving about. 

It's lucky u don't have to worry about picking up any VHF signals. I only have one VHF (NBC channel 2)which required a much bigger antenna than a UHF only(all the rest are UHF). I'm about 70 miles from the towers so I've got to get that baby high and directed perfectly but it should work. I just hope the wind doesn't blow it down. I just brought home the RS VU-190XR - almost 14 feet long. Supposed to bring in UHF from 100 miles. We'll see..... (I might have to ask Doug to hold the ladder and catch me if(when) I fall...


----------



## edrock200

Good luck Tom! Let us know how it goes. The *attic*  install was more for convenience. After looking through teh baltimore/dc thread at AVS I might move it to the roof but I'm not sure. There are occasional glitches in the signal that would probably go away if it were mounted on the roof...


----------



## Tom in OH

I bet your signal would be much stronger outside and also being in the attic, u might lose the signal completely if it rains, is foggy or snows. I can see your point on the convenience factor. I wish the attic idea would work here. 

All u'd need for a roof instal is a tripod from Radio Shack ($27), a 5 foot mast(~$10) and ground cable.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *All u'd need for a roof instal is a tripod from Radio Shack ($27), a 5 foot mast(~$10) and ground cable. *


 and... a ladder, maybe some rope anchored to a fixed structure to tie around your waist, cleated shoes (if a very sloped roof -- old tennis shoes with screws driven into them can work), a drill (and long drill bit) to make a hole to get the cable inside, and some caulk or putty to seal the hole around the cabling.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *and... a ladder, maybe some rope anchored to a fixed structure to tie around your waist, cleated shoes (if a very sloped roof -- old tennis shoes with screws driven into them can work), a drill (and long drill bit) to make a hole to get the cable inside, and some caulk or putty to seal the hole around the cabling. *


yes, yes, yes, but that's stuff guys like us have lying 'round the house from previous projects...

u forgot to mention he'll also need U for roof catching.....


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *yes, yes, yes, but that's stuff guys like us have lying 'round the house from previous projects...
> 
> u forgot to mention he'll also need U for roof catching..... *


 And then there's the "Real men don't need rope or special shoes" factor if you're being watched while you install it by neighbors/family...


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *And then there's the "Real men don't need rope or special shoes" factor if you're being watched while you install it by neighbors/family...  *


expected u to say u didn't have a 'long drill' lying around the house... but I wouldn't believe u... I bet u have plenty of caulk too...


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *expected u to say u didn't have a 'long drill' lying around the house... but I wouldn't believe u... I bet u have plenty of caulk too... *


 Having just remodeled my kitchen a little over a year ago, I have almost every necessary (and unnecessary) tool to rip any size or shape hole in almost any type of material. And I have the supplies to seal it back up again.


----------



## Bigg

For those with a VHF channel, if the VHF channel is like 30 mi away, can you just take a pair of rabbit ears for VHF and a UHF only rooftop and then combine the signal with a bakcwards cable splitter? Or am I totally off???


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *For those with a VHF channel, if the VHF channel is like 30 mi away, can you just take a pair of rabbit ears for VHF and a UHF only rooftop and then combine the signal with a bakcwards cable splitter? Or am I totally off??? *


that might work just fine since VHF is supposedly easier to receive than UHF, especially if someone is close. Unfortunately many of us are much further away than 30miles. But good idea. A smaller antenna outside on the roof would be much less susceptible to winds.


----------



## AbMagFab

Any signal combination like that will result in a ton of interference, and an almost unusable end result. You need to filter each half before merging them.

For example, you could filter all UHF from the VHF cable, and all VHF from the UHF cable, and then try that. Or even better get a modulator, take the VHF channel you want, and modulate it to a specific spot on the UHF cable (rather than merging the entire feed from both).


----------



## Tom in OH

I've never tried combining the UHF and VHF signals from 2 different antennas but u might be right about the interference. How then do VHF/UHF/FM antennas deal with this issue?

Thx, Tom


----------



## Darin

If it's all coming from a single antenna, its' not an issue because there's only one source. It's not that VHF interferes with UHF, it's that there are two sources that could be picking up the same signal, and if they're out of phase in the slightest they interfere with each other. But you can easily and cheaply combine separate UHF and VHF antennas with a joiner meant specifically for that purpose, such as the 0549 shown at the bottom of this page. I'm doing that now with a separate VHF and UHF antenna on my roof, and I also have one of the jointennas to merge in a signal from a third antenna for a single station in the opposite direction.


----------



## Tom in OH

Thx Darin for the input. I might need that webpage in the future. Your roof must look very kewl(if u ask me) but also u must have a Very easy going wife. Mine has complained ever since she saw the size of the ota I brought home and it's not even on the roof yet....


----------



## AbMagFab

Yup, that'll do the trick. Those Jointenna's are performing the filtering before merging, so you don't get the cross interference. I like the ones on the top of the page that do it for a specific channel, much better than modulating out through some other device.


----------



## Darin

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *Your roof must look very kewl(if u ask me)*



Heh, well, it does look kinda funny. I've got a mast in the middle at the very peak with the UHF and VHF antenna on it (the third OTA is in the attic), a Dish500 at one corner for 110 & 119, and a 30" at the opposite for 101. I've thought about putting flashing lights on them for kitch factor, but that's another project I'd never finish.


> *but also u must have a Very easy going wife.*


You still have much to learn.


----------



## edrock200

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *
> You still have much to learn.   *


LOL!


----------



## Toeside

> _Originally posted by Darin _
> 
> You still have much to learn.   [/B]


He must me a newbie.  I was wondering how you'd reply to that statement.


----------



## Bigg

Nice sounding anetnna setup. thx for the info on UHF and VHF combing. The UHF and VHF antenna combiner will be useful when I get HD, with NBC and CBS on UHF aways away, and ABC on VHF practically right next door (I get their analog with a coathangar).


----------



## DavidTigerFan

Hey guys, need a little help. I got a new Phase III dish. I want to run Feldon's first scenario where I have 2 outputs of the dish go into a 2x4 multiswitch and 2 going to the HDtivo when I get it. (in the mean time I will have an HD receiver plugged in). However the Phase III dish has no labels for the outputs. How do I know which ones point to what satellites?

-DTF


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by DavidTigerFan _
> *Hey guys, need a little help. I got a new Phase III dish. I want to run Feldon's first scenario where I have 2 outputs of the dish go into a 2x4 multiswitch and 2 going to the HDtivo when I get it. (in the mean time I will have an HD receiver plugged in). However the Phase III dish has no labels for the outputs. How do I know which ones point to what satellites? *


 It doesn't matter. The Phase III dish has a built-in multiswitch. The 2x4 multiswitch you have will send 13v to whatever is connected to one input and 17v to whatever is connected to the other input. The voltage will tell the built-in multiswitch what signal to pass through to it. All will work as designed.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

Ahh thank you doug!


----------



## Special_Ed21

> _Originally posted by mjones _
> *Another good use for native output from an STB is the ability to have a specific device do the scaling.
> 
> For example, the Samsung HLN617w DLP set will accept both 720p and 1080i signals. The display is a 720p native display, but uses a Faroudja for signal conversion. That chipset is arguably one of the best available for signal conversion in the digital domain.
> 
> In my setup I have a Samsung SIRT165 STB which has a physical output selector switch for a single output resolution connected to my Samsung DLP. Nearly every HD program I watch is on CBS which broadcast a 1080i native signal. If I set the STB to output 720 (which most people would recommend because it is the native resolution of the display) CBS looks 'horrible' compared to the following alternative. Set the STB to output 1080i (native resolution of the broadcast) and let the DLP do the side-conversion to 720p via the Faroudja chipset, this method looks far superior.
> 
> The problem then works in reverse. With the STB in 1080i and watching ABC (720p native), the STB performs the conversion (from 720p to 1080i) then the TV converts it again (from 1080i back to 720p) and ABC also looks 'horrible.'
> 
> Fortunately for me, I pretty much only watch CBS and NBC (1080i native) so I leave the STB set to 1080i letting my DLP side-convert to its native resolution of 720p. With the switch on the back of the STB, I almost never even bother watching 720p native shows.
> 
> Therefore, I would love to have native passthrough, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either (due to my viewing habbits)
> 
> Mike *


I have the Samsung HLN617w DLP and have pre-ordered the HR10-250 HD. It looks like I will be switching resolutions often using the up arrow on the remote or the front panel switch. Unfortunately my mother is very tech challenged and will be very confused as to which resolution to use and will probably just watch whatever setting it happens to be on.

I want to know if the SD signals will look better with the DVI output than my current Hughes HDVR2 S-video output. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## matL

from the FAQ, I see cables are included  All this waiting is getting to me & I was thinking I could go buy something - to be 'ready'.



Anyone have details on the supplied cable size/ quality (subjective) that come with? 
Thanks

*edit* found the types withing this post - still wondering if anyone has LENGTH and 'quality'?


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by Special_Ed21 _
> *
> 
> I want to know if the SD signals will look better with the DVI output than my current Hughes HDVR2 S-video output. Any thoughts on this?
> *


The HDMI-->DVI cable will strip the audio but will keep the video signal in all its digital glory. I've heard the DVI output refered to as a "bit bucket" which means it sends a uncompressed digital signal to your display device. It certainly would be well worth a try using the DVI input on your DLP opposed to the s-video for SD channels. My bet is they'll look much better.


----------



## k2ue

> _Originally posted by Special_Ed21 _
> *I want to know if the SD signals will look better with the DVI output than my current Hughes HDVR2 S-video output. Any thoughts on this?
> *


I currently let my Samsung TS360 HD receiver scale my HDVR2 to 720p (from S-video) to drive my HLN467W. While the black level is incorrectly elevated on the HDVR2 compared to the TS360's own video, there appears to be no other issues, and the HD TiVo would not have the Black problem. I would also note that while my TS360 supports Native output I stopped using it because the HLN blanking and flashing when clicking thru stations (as it tried to scale each differently) was very annoying. Sharpness on the HLN seems to be a significant factor on SD -- I've settled on 30, since it seems to to affect HD much no matter where it's set.

So I'm planning to just let the HD TiVo output 720p, except when watching in the bedroom via a modulator.


----------



## bkdtv

_Re-posted from another thread..._



> The layout on that motherboard does look darned close to the current SD series 2 in your EZ-Bracket photos. But that extra RF cannister up front is certain to be in the way if that exists on the production units too.


We know that the current DirecTivo uses the Broadcom BCM702x chip for its graphics and PVR functionality. This chip supports HD, when supplied with the appropriate memory and output circuitry (which obviously the Series2 does not have). Dish Network uses the BCM702x in their Dish 921 PVR.

From this press release back in January, we know that the HDTV DirecTivo uses a newer-generation BCM7037 chip. Unfortunately, Broadcom doesn't provide documentation on the BCM7037.

Broadcom does provide information on the BCM7035 and BCM7038. The BCM7035 offers comparable functionality to the BCM7020 used in the current Series2 Tivo, but with a dedicated 3D engine. The BCM7038 offers a number of key improvements over the BCM7035, including 3/2 pull-down with automatic scene detection, built-in DVI-HDMI transmitter, an Ethernet MAC/PHY, dual USB 2.0 and dual SATA controllers, and a 3D comb filter for SD analog outputs.

It's not clear what features the BCM7037--used in the HDTV DirecTivo--is missing from the BCM7038. What is obvious: the BCM7037 in the HDTV DirecTivo is a significant step-up from the BCM702x used in the SD DirecTivo and the Dish 921 HD PVR.

_Another interesting bit..._

The BCM7038 product brief mentions a BCM3520 VSB/QAM demod. There is no other mention of the BCM3520 on Broadcom's web site.

The 2+year old BCM3510 is the VSB/QAM demod used in the Dish 921HD PVR. It delivers acceptable off-air reception for local signals, but doesn't equal the reception performance of the newest DirecTV HD STBs. It is at least possible that the HDTV DirecTivo uses the unannounced BCM3520 part, but it's not clear what improvements this will offer.


----------



## Hootydog

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *Yes thanks to DSwallow's advice I got a CM 4228 antenna and a CM 7777 pre-amp. This combination got me the big 4, PBS and the WB in HD and I live far from the towers. My other antenna and preamp just couldn't do it. *


 Same set up here with great results from 30 miles away from Sutro tower behind the East Bay hills.
Chappy


----------



## midas

What's the difference between a regular amp and a pre-amp?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by midas _
> *What's the difference between a regular amp and a pre-amp? *


 I can kind of answer that. 

Read this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html

A weak signal traveling through a length of coax loses some of its power for every foot it travels (about 1db per 18 feet or so, depending on the cable); that is the noise floor and the signal peaks become closer together. When you get to your receiver there can be little difference between the two, and the receiver is unable to do anything with it.

For that reason, you want to amplify the signal as close to the source as you can and use a pre-amplifier that adds as little noise to the signal as possible. The job of the pre-amp is to boost the signal to offset loss down the transmission line.

The most important factor is the signal-to-noise ratio; you need a certain ratio or higher for a receiver to be able to do anything with the signal. So by amplifying as close to the antenna as you can, you have the best chance of actually improving the ratio so that it can survive any loss through the rest of the transmission system.

An amplifier (or really, a distribution amplifier) is designed to boost the signal sufficiently along the transmission path to deal with loss through splitters or longer runs of cable.

Is there any real difference beyond the usual differences in design between models and manufacturers? I don't think so -- of course those differences between models and manufacturers are important. But amplifying a signal at the receiver is practically useless since there's nothing it can do the receiver couldn't do itself; there's no loss to pre-compensate for at that point; you've already lost your signal.

The antenna's gonna get you all the signal you can get. Now the job of the pre-amp, any other amplifiers is to get as much of that signal as possible to your receiver; without decreasing or only minimally decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio.


----------



## midas

Thanks Doug, I can actually almost understand that 

But of course, now we need specifics. In theory I should get a strong signal. I'm about 14 miles from the towers. Unfortunately my last HD receiver didn't have a signal meter so I can't give any real numbers. But the reception didn't seem great. I have a relatively short line to the receiver, probabably less than 30 feet. And the antenna itself is a monster, 131" boom and about 110" wide.

But when I tried to split the signal one time things got worse. And when I tried to buy a cheap Radio Shack amp I basically got nothing. Obviously it introduced more noise to the system.

Now maybe a better amp would have worked better. But it wasn't the cheapest one they had. But if I ever want to send the signal to more than 1 set I'll have to do something. Now, unless the guy that installed the antenna did a really lousy job, I can't imagine a 30' line would normally introduce much signal loss.

It could be a multipath issue I suppose. But there are really no large buildings behind the antenna. So the first question I suppose is what would splitting a multipathed signal do? And, if I had a receiver with a strength meter, would I see a strong signal if it's multipathed? And of course, if it is multipathed, I don't think a pre-amp would do much good.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by midas _
> *Thanks Doug, I can actually almost understand that
> 
> But of course, now we need specifics. In theory I should get a strong signal. I'm about 14 miles from the towers. Unfortunately my last HD receiver didn't have a signal meter so I can't give any real numbers. But the reception didn't seem great. I have a relatively short line to the receiver, probabably less than 30 feet. And the antenna itself is a monster, 131" boom and about 110" wide.
> 
> But when I tried to split the signal one time things got worse. And when I tried to buy a cheap Radio Shack amp I basically got nothing. Obviously it introduced more noise to the system.
> 
> Now maybe a better amp would have worked better. But it wasn't the cheapest one they had. But if I ever want to send the signal to more than 1 set I'll have to do something. Now, unless the guy that installed the antenna did a really lousy job, I can't imagine a 30' line would normally introduce much signal loss.
> 
> It could be a multipath issue I suppose. But there are really no large buildings behind the antenna. So the first question I suppose is what would splitting a multipathed signal do? And, if I had a receiver with a strength meter, would I see a strong signal if it's multipathed? And of course, if it is multipathed, I don't think a pre-amp would do much good. *


 For one thing, I'd be concerned about the cheap Radio Shack amplifier. ou saw the difference in noise specs on several amplifiers; where did the Radio Shack units fall? 2 of the 3 in that list did worse than if they weren't in line at all. 

Do you have any FM towers nearby? Another consideration would be strong FM stations causing your preamp to clip everything because there's too much power coming in over the FM band; some preamps have a switchable FM trap; others require it be added separately.

If you have any analog stations you can receive near some of the digital channel frequencies, how do those look? Ghosty? Clear? Snowy?

That antenna has nice clean radiation plots without much rear gain at all. I suppose maybe something off in the direction you're aiming could be reflecting towards you and causing multipath problems.

If you can get to the antenna to inspect everything, this coul djust be a bad install; maybe a loose wire on the balun or bad coax connector splice, or maybe some elements bent/shorted.

Do you know if your stations are broadcasting at full power or at some lower, maybe much lower power? Do you know people in your neighborhood who can receive them well?


----------



## midas

Well right now I don't have a pre-amp. And the reason I got it installed was that I can't get up on the roof. It's not that it's very high or even very slanted, I'm just a woos! I had to buy one of those attachments to a leaf blower so I could clean the gutters. So the idea of ME geting up and doing any inspection just isn't going to happen. 

Do I have FM towers nearby? Who knows. This is Chicago, there seem to be towers everywhere. But again, no pre-amp, so I doubt clipping would be an issue. 

As far as analog stations, that's hard to tell. It's been so long since I've actually watched OTA that it's hard to compare. I would say they looked snowy to me, but there was no ghosting. In my mind that would say weak signal without multipathing. But obviously I don't really know. 

I don't know if all the stations are at full power right now. But since all the major networks here are O&O, I would hope (not assume) they are. I know we had major trouble with the CBS stations because they are on channel 3. For the longest time they had to operate at very low power because it was messing up the cable systems in the area until they all moved their default box setting to channel 4. Now they are at full power. But even when they were at 25% that was my most dependable signal. 

I don't know anybody else in the immediate area, but I know a lot of people that have no problem picking up any of the stations from as far away as 40 miles. This would tell me that the power levels at the stations are not the issue. 

So here's the real questions. I just signed up for the $99 HD deal from D*. Part of that deal is the OTA antenna install. Now I know for a fact that the current antenna I have is better than the one they'll give me. But I figure I have about a 50/50 chance of the install being better. It's also possible that the Panasonic receiver just had bad OTA reception and the HDTivo will be much better. The $99 one is only a temp until I get that. 

My initial thoughts are to first hook up the receiver and see what kind of repception I get. If it's OK, obviously the problem is solved. But if it's not, then the fun starts. Ideally I'd like to get the installer reaim and run new cables from my antenna. But I have a feeling that the installer won't want to do that. Then the decision is do I want him to install the antenna he brings? 

Unfortunately that's not going to fly too well. My wife is already POed that I'm getting the HDTivo. And she was really unhappy when I put the antenna up because it's so HUGE. I guess if I could talk him into using my mast and thus taking down what I have now that would be OK. 

But is is possible that a smaller antenna would actually work better? I find it hard to believe that the one I have is TOO GOOD. And I'm pretty sure the installer will be no help in making a decision. So that's why I ask the experts here :up:


----------



## JohnA

Wrong thread.


----------



## Bigg

Your antenna could be too good if you can see the tower from your house clearly. Not likely, though.


----------



## Tom in OH

Midas, do u have a rotor on your HD-7084P antenna?


----------



## Larry Hutchinson

This is the wrong thread but:

With such a large and presumably high gain antenna only 14 miles away from the towers, I would be more inclined to put in an _attenuator_ rather than an amplifier!

And as Tom asked, do you have a rotator? A high gain antenna may need precise aiming. You might consider using a smaller antenna.


----------



## midas

Thanks guys. I wish I had a rotator on it. That would make life much easier and at least take care of one of the variables. I'll see what the installer says when he gets here Monday, although like I said, I don't expect him to know much.


----------



## Tom in OH

just curious if u'd tried to tweak the direction for a better signal which u could do easily with a rotor. I think we'll all be curious to hear what happens on Mon. 

That gigantic (high gain) antenna should be pulling in a strong signal from 14 miles. I bet it's been moved by those strong Chicago winds or maybe there's a short in the line as Doug suggested. I almost bought the same model Winegard(HD7084P) to pull in ota from almost 70miles but decided to go with the largest model at RS cuz they had it in stock and on sale at the local RS store (VU-190XR) 160 in.


----------



## midas

I've waffled on getting a rotor for a long time. If could get on the roof and do it myself I probably would have done it a long time ago. But paying someone to do it really raises the price. I just figure that once I find the sweet spot I'll never have to move it again.


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## dswallow

> _Originally posted by midas _
> *I've waffled on getting a rotor for a long time. If could get on the roof and do it myself I probably would have done it a long time ago. But paying someone to do it really raises the price. I just figure that once I find the sweet spot I'll never have to move it again. *


 Well, for that $60-$90 you can actually find the sweet spot without numerous trips up and down a ladder to move the antenna, go look at the signals, take notes on reception quality/strength, move the antenna again... 

Plus with the rotator, you'll be able to play around when there's a good troposheric forecast and see what else you can pick up.

http://www.iprimus.ca/~hepburnw/tropo.html
http://www.iprimus.ca/~hepburnw/tropo_wam.html


----------



## midas

Oh I agree, if it were only $60-90, I'd do it. But to have someone come out and do it for me would probably cost at least another $100. Now we're talking about some serious coin.


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## Bigg

IF you can get on the roof to move the antenna can't you put a rotor on too???


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## midas

I can't get up on the roof at all, that's the problem. Oh well, the installer just left and it was an interesting experience to say the least. But I throw the details in the $99 deal thread.


----------



## Toeside

Since HD programming info is in the FAQ, then I guess it is OK to ask this here...

Has anyone contacted DirecTV about Bravo HD availability? 

Craig


----------



## hongcho

The 8-ball says, "ask again in May after the 7S is operational". 

Hong.


----------



## Toeside

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *The 8-ball says, "ask again in May after the 7S is operational".
> 
> Hong. *


I just received an email back from them. They can't comment since it isn't announced, but my request will be forwarded to the programming people...

Oh well, maybe sometime. Significant Others is a great show....I'd like to watch all TV in HDTV.


----------



## robnalex

Do I need a satellite C kit? I currently have a 3-year-old elliptical dish and receive HD on my SAT-HD100, which I assume is pointed at 101/119. Apparently the C Kit will add 110. What exactly will I be missing if I don't add the C Kit to get 110?


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by robnalex _
> *Do I need a satellite C kit? I currently have a 3-year-old elliptical dish and receive HD on my SAT-HD100, which I assume is pointed at 101/119. Apparently the C Kit will add 110. What exactly will I be missing if I don't add the C Kit to get 110? *


just to be sure, tune to channel 99 and check if u can see a DirecTv symbol.


----------



## Baracuda

midas-

I also live in Chicago...North side along the lakefront. 
I had gotten on that directv customer retention deal for a HD receiver. had it installed.
Well, I have a midrise building that is in direct line to the Hancock building (and in line with the Sears also). The off-air antenna they installed did me no good. 
Bought an amp'd antenna to see if I could do better. With Too Much dicking around, I was able to get 5, 7, 9, 11, 32, 50 (others too, but those are all I cared about) But, the position for some channels knocked out the others. Never could get 2 in at all. Meaning I would have to be constantly moving the antenna to get all the available channels I listed.
That said, I find HD at this point to be quite a disappointment and as of today, got DirecTV to take the whole thing back. Much of the off air stuff is in 4:3 resolution, not 16:9. The DirecTV HD channels come in good and look very good, but honestly, not so amazing compared to the general great quality of standard res Directv. To me there simply isn't enough HD stuff that I want to even watch. Also, what the heck was I thinking, thinking that I could look at non-tivo'd TV. What? Watch shows live and on time? No way 

As to the Upcoming HD DirecTiVo....At this point, not even close to being worth $999,at least to me. 
The experience was educational just the same. My longing for HD is now on hold until there is much more HD content available.


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## midas

I guess it all depends on what you like to watch. I watch a lot of stuff that's already in HD so the HDTivo will be of big value to me. Of course, I already had an HD receiver that I sold for $350. I'll sell the Hughes I got on the $99 for at least a $200 profit. And I'll also sell my current DirecTivo for at least $150. So if add that all up it's at least $700. With the $100 discount from VE my end cost will be about $200 and that includes all the antenna work I got D* to do last week. Well worth it to me.

BTW, I'm around Belmont and Cumberland so my area is much more conducive to good reception.


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## Baracuda

well financially, you're certainly making out. And yep, it depends on what you watch. Glad you're getting more use out of it than I did. I know DirecTV is working on more HD content and I wouldn't be surprised to find myself with an HD DirevTivo before the year is up, or early next year....if enough has been added.
Thanks


----------



## fishracer

Midas, I also live along Belmont in Chicago. What antenna do you use?


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## neilaevans

Feldon,
I'm sorry if this has been covered before (I didn't search) but I just wanted to confirm that there is NO optical cable included with the HDTivo. You may want to change the faq accordingly.


----------



## Joe Siegler

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Please let me know if there are any mistakes/oversights in this FAQ.
> *


Very cool piece of info. One small nit about the shows that are offered.



> UPN offers Enterprise and Jake 2.0 in HDTV.


UPN canceled Jake 2.0 awhile ago, and hasn't been aired in a few months.


----------



## midas

> _Originally posted by fishracer _
> *Midas, I also live along Belmont in Chicago. What antenna do you use? *


Well at this point that's a very complicated question. First read this message and then read this one.


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## Bigg

D8 should offer INHD and INHD2, currently only for cable people. I don't have an HDTV yet, as the HDTV situation in hartford-NH is not terribly pretty.


----------



## bakerkj

Does the DirectTV HDTV Tivo support ethernet via a USB adapter for it's phone calls?

Thanks,
Ken


----------



## caruthers

> _Originally posted by bakerkj _
> *Does the DirectTV HDTV Tivo support ethernet via a USB adapter for it's phone calls?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ken *


There are 2 USB ports for "future" use


----------



## bakerkj

Does this mean I will have to get a land line again? I heard somewhere that it can get all of its programming data over the satellite. The only thing you need the phone for is to purchase movies...

Is this true?

-- Ken


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## BrettStah

Ken, currently software updates and the initial setup require a phoneline. Future software updates AFTER the next big update (4.x) will most likely also come via satellite. You will get "reminders" after awhile letting you know that the call didn't go through. Pressing SELECT on the remote clears this reminder, and you don't lose any functionality.

So see if you can go through the initial setup at a friend's house (or maybe at the store that you buy it from, if you buy it locally). And order your PPV via the web instead of with your remote, and that isn't an issue either. Then when you find out that the software has been updated, bring your Tivo to a friend's house with a phoneline, and let it dowload the update. Then no future phone calls should be required.


----------



## dswallow

I believe at least one person successfully used PPP over serial to setup and install a unit. SO if that is the case, and you can deal with supporting PPP over serial in your environment, you may get away without a phone line at all.


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## MGreen

Hi all, Ive posted a quickie review if anyones interested, So far my customer couldnt be happier with his HR10-250

http://www.electronicdecor.com/reviews/hdtv-tivo.htm


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## mag249

I currently have a round dual LNB dish. I am not going to get the triple until I receive my unit. I assume that I can connect everything (with the understanding that I will not get certain channels) as I would with the triple without damaging my unit? Once I get the triple I simply go through guided setup again?

Thanks guys (and gals) for all the great info on this BBS, it has been very useful in getting me up the learning curve.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mag249 _
> *I currently have a round dual LNB dish. I am not going to get the triple until I receive my unit. I assume that I can connect everything (with the understanding that I will not get certain channels) as I would with the triple without damaging my unit? Once I get the triple I simply go through guided setup again?
> 
> Thanks guys (and gals) for all the great info on this BBS, it has been very useful in getting me up the learning curve. *


 Yes, you'll identify what sort of satellite dish you have when running through guided setup. Later when you get the 3-LNB dish, you will just rerun guided setup to change the satellite dish selection.


----------



## hongcho

I guess I will just ask it here instead of creating a new thread since it could be a FAQ...

So, when watching live, is there a way to go back to the previous channel of the same virtual tuner? I know there is a way to change between the virtual tuners, but I was wondering if there was a way.

Hong.


----------



## mercurial

> _Originally posted by hongcho _
> *I guess I will just ask it here instead of creating a new thread since it could be a FAQ...
> 
> So, when watching live, is there a way to go back to the previous channel of the same virtual tuner? I know there is a way to change between the virtual tuners, but I was wondering if there was a way.
> *


Doesn't "Enter" function as a Last-Channel button? Not sure what the interaction is with two tuners. On the SAT-T60s, I always remember it wasn't _quite_ what I expected.


----------



## steveru

It's been a while since I have been on here to check updates, so please forgive me if I appear to beating a dead horse, but I for one will be very disappointed with TiVo if they do not offer a stand alone HD unit. I spent months of time researching the "perfect fit" HD receiver for my monitor and don't want to have to settle for the unit that comes with DirecTv. I have been a loyal TiVo fan since year one, but, if someone else beats TiVo to the punch on a standalone unit, I will be first in line to switch from TiVo.


----------



## acroswel

> _Originally posted by steveru _
> *It's been a while since I have been on here to check updates, so please forgive me if I appear to beating a dead horse, but I for one will be very disappointed with TiVo if they do not offer a stand alone HD unit. I spent months of time researching the "perfect fit" HD receiver for my monitor and don't want to have to settle for the unit that comes with DirecTv. I have been a loyal TiVo fan since year one, but, if someone else beats TiVo to the punch on a standalone unit, I will be first in line to switch from TiVo. *


Zenith has had a standalone HD recorder out for months now:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009RF6G/104-6910179-8241524?v=glance


----------



## BrettStah

Check out the AVS Forum - HDTV Recorders Forum for more details on current HDTV recorders. There are a couple of standalones, but the last time I delved into them, they were lacking considerably when compared to Tivos. You can't watch a recording while something else is being recorded (deal-breaker for me), can only record one thing at a time, only buffers live TV when you press a specific button on the remote, only 8 hours of space, etc. Some/all may have been addressed via software/firmware updates or newer models, so check that forum for the most recent info...


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by steveru _
> *I for one will be very disappointed with TiVo if they do not offer a stand alone HD unit.*


No such beast, nor will there likely ever be.

If you are just recording off rabbit ears, then look at the Zenith and other HD OTA recording options.

If you are a cable TV customer, then I expect TiVo to introduce a universal HDTiVo for cable using the OpenCable CableCard standard within the year.


----------



## hongcho

> Doesn't "Enter" function as a Last-Channel button?

That worked. Thanks.

Hong.


----------



## Todd76

Hong,

ENTER doesn't actually do exactly what you asked (previous channel on the same tuner). It will switch to the previous channel, which could be the same tuner or the other tuner. At least that's how it works on my DSR6000.


----------



## BBobley

Feldon23,

Here's a possible update to your FAQ:

The Tivo manual (p. 30) indicates that by selecting the "panel" mode with the Ratio button on the remote, you can letterbox 16 x 9 material. This is very useful if you have a 4 x 3 HDTV display. But I think I now have confirmation that this feature doesn't work when your output mode is 1080i. It works fine with 480p output. I can't test 720p, because my display doesn't do 720p. I don't know if this is a bug or an oversight or what.

See this thread for more info:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173377

Brett


----------



## hongcho

> ENTER doesn't actually do exactly what you asked (previous channel on the same tuner). It will switch to the previous channel, which could be the same tuner or the other tuner. At least that's how it works on my DSR6000.

Yeah, I noticed that. But that's good enough for me.

Thanks.

Hong.


----------



## kcwhitney

I have an SD level DTV Tivo, and will get the HD version as soon as it gets in stock around here. I want to use both in the same room. My question involves remotes. Will there be confusion between the units, or can I specifiy one remote for the SD unit and another remote for the HD?


----------



## tivoupgrade

> _Originally posted by kcwhitney _
> *I have an SD level DTV Tivo, and will get the HD version as soon as it gets in stock around here. I want to use both in the same room. My question involves remotes. Will there be confusion between the units, or can I specifiy one remote for the SD unit and another remote for the HD? *


Haven't tried that yet, but it shouldn't be a problem. I will be trying it this weekend, I have a Hughes GXCEBOT and an HR10-250 in the same wrong; you can change the remote codes for these units by just going to the System information screen and just selecting "1" "2" or "3" on our remote, from what I recall...


----------



## BrettStah

Here's how to use two Tivos in the same room:
http://customersupport.tivo.com/tivoknowbase/root/public/tv1087.htm


----------



## stugrief

I've just hooked up my HR10-250. I am using an HDMI connection to a Pioneer Elite plasma. I have 2 satellite inputs and an off-air input connected to the HR10-250. Everything works fine when I am watching satellite stations: both the video and audio signals are passed to the Pioneer through the HDMI cable. But when I tune to an off-air station, only video comes through. No sound.

Any ideas why this may be happening?


----------



## jautor

I'm guessing that your Pioneer isn't supporting Dolby Digital over HDMI... You can change the TiVo's audio output to be PCM (haven't tried this to see how it handles ATSC streams).

And if that doesn't work, run the analog L/R audio to the plasma, and keep the Toslink for your receiver...

Jeff


----------



## bloozeman

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *No such beast, nor will there likely ever be.
> 
> If you are just recording off rabbit ears, then look at the Zenith and other HD OTA recording options.
> 
> If you are a cable TV customer, then I expect TiVo to introduce a universal HDTiVo for cable using the OpenCable CableCard standard within the year. *


Okay now I'm bummed. I haven't checked on the status of the OTA standalone unit that Tivo debuted at CES last year since I knew they were planning on releasing it after the HDDirectTivo unit. I've held off buying a HD STB because I was waiting for the Tivo unit. I have no desire to pay my current DBS vendor (E*) nor D* for HD programming and I also have no desire to dump E* for D* SD programming.

Why do you think they'll do a cable version but not a standalone? They obviously already had a prototype and could use the same ATSC tuners in the one they have released now for DirectTV.

-Ray


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by bloozeman _
> *Why do you think they'll do a cable version but not a standalone? They obviously already had a prototype and could use the same ATSC tuners in the one they have released now for DirectTV. *


 TiVo's said many times they don't want to be in the hardware business. So a manufacturer has to consider the market worthy of producing TiVo's reference design and marketing and supporting it. I think that's mostly the reason. People don't really consider OTA-only as a complete solution for anyone, so it's not perceived to have a big market. And further since there's pretty small penetration of ATSC receivers in general, is that much smaller.

The promises of what the CableCard standard will bring in terms of being able to use it with most any cable system is a significantly different potential market. So I think there'll be much more interest from manufacturer partners than there possibly could be with OTA-only.


----------



## gilcart

Guys,

I am anticipating my arrival Monday, getting ready...

Any ways I have a Bose 3-2-1 system, with Optical in, should I be using that connection with my HDTV TiVo? If so I have to pick up a cable tomorrow....

Any help would be appreciated, then, I then run the DVI to my Samsung 4235edtv for 780p......

Also, with my Bose, I will run a S - cable to my plasma for DVD playback, correct?

Thanks much


----------



## Tom in OH

That sounds right Gil. At this page: http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/FLATPANELTVplasma/TV_FLATPANELTVplasma_SPN4235.htm

it shows your Samsung plasma will accept 480i/p, 720p, & 1080i but then at the bottom of the page it shows only 480i/p & 1080i. You might wanna try setting the HDTivo to output 720p and 1080i to see which looks best. What's the native format for your model? If it's 720p, that would be the best choice.


----------



## gilcart

Thanks!!!

Yes, in my manual it says my plasma is best for 780p so that is whay i will try, only the eyes will tell!!


----------



## Tom in OH

It says 780p? or do u mean 720p? It looks like a Very nice tv. The HDTivo should look fantastic! Enjoy. My HDTivo should be in within a week or so. I can hardly wait. If I hadn't already shaved my head, I'd be pullin' my hair out


----------



## gilcart

Meant 720p sorry, it was sat night and a beer was in my hand


----------



## david(dallas)

Sorry if this has been asked. I did a search and found that their is a stand alone HD TIVO there.
But now that the DirecTV HD-TIVO is out (and I'm very disappointed in the HD PQ versus my Sony HD200), will there be any other companies coming out with a HD-TIVO? Or is DirecTV the only version due to whatever reasons?


----------



## leftcoastdave

> _Originally posted by david(dallas) _
> *....and I'm very disappointed in the HD PQ versus my Sony HD200...
> 
> I too was disappointed in the PQ of the 10-250 compared with my DTC100. I connected the DTC100 to the VGA port of my Pioneer Elite 620HD and had to connect the 10-250 to the component port using the supplied component cable because the Tivo has no VGA out.
> 
> On the Elite, the Pioneer locks the video controls and optimizes the color correction on the VGA port but does not do so on the component inputs.
> 
> When I first looked at the HD Tivo picture it was very dark compared to the DTC100. I initially suspected the supplied component cable was low quality but after tinkering with the TV's settings, I got the image to look a lot better. I had to raise the black levels substantially, increased the contrast slightly, and lowered the color setting a few notches. I have the sharpness, SVM, and tone controls all turned off.
> 
> I am going to take another look when I can flip between DirecTV and Expressvu to see how the PQ matches up on common programming, but right now it looks a lot better than it did initially.*


----------



## steveru

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *No such beast, nor will there likely ever be.
> 
> If you are just recording off rabbit ears, then look at the Zenith and other HD OTA recording options.
> 
> If you are a cable TV customer, then I expect TiVo to introduce a universal HDTiVo for cable using the OpenCable CableCard standard within the year. *


The standalone units that are available don't cut it for me. And, I have DirecTv so the universal units for cable won't work for me. So, I guess I will be watching Replay to see if they come out with one. I hate to dump TiVo, but will in a heartbeat if Replay comes out with a standalone unit.


----------



## MichaelK

huh?

If you have Directv just get the HD Directivo with an OTA antenna- its out now? 

Supposedly D* has significant plans for HD in the next year or 2 so the content will only get better.


----------



## steveru

MickaelK,

Well, as I said earlier, less than a year ago, I did months of research to pair up the perfect HD receiver with my HD Monitor. I have already dumped over $1000 into the receiver and it would be a waist of my hard earned money (not to mention the time and effort that went into pairing up the perfect combination of receiver and monitor) to "just get the HD Directivo".

The perils of being on the bleeding edge, I guess.....


----------



## MichaelK

Bleeding edge can hurt...

I think its cheapest though just to bite the bullet and get the HD Tivo- the standalone units would probably cost the same as the price of a HDTivo minus selling your current box on ebay.

of course you might not get the perfect match though...


----------



## chickenscratch

I have to subscribe to the HD package to get CBSHDW (81)?

That makes no sense.

I pay for HBO, so I get HBOHD.
I pay for local channels, so I should get local channels HD, or at least the closest to it I can get.

Yes, I am in a CBS O&O market.

Am I the only one who complained to DirectTV about this?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by chickenscratch _
> *I have to subscribe to the HD package to get CBSHDW (81)?
> 
> That makes no sense.
> 
> I pay for HBO, so I get HBOHD.
> I pay for local channels, so I should get local channels HD, or at least the closest to it I can get.
> 
> Yes, I am in a CBS O&O market.
> 
> Am I the only one who complained to DirectTV about this? *


 CBD HD is part of local channels (or distant networks), not part of the HD package; some have reported only having the HD package and being in the O&O area and getting CBS HD turned on, but the HD package is not required. Local channels or distant network CBS is supposed to be.


----------



## chickenscratch

But I couldn't past the person at DirecTV.

What is the magic key phrase to get this channel?

He said he checked elegibility and I am not eligible (again, I am, I am in San Jose).

What do I have to say to get this turned on?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## chickenscratch

Quick follow up.

I was directly told I don't get 81 unless I get the HD package. Obviously this was incorrect. I'm just asking for a phrase to say to get past this with DirecTV.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by chickenscratch _
> *Quick follow up.
> 
> I was directly told I don't get 81 unless I get the HD package. Obviously this was incorrect. I'm just asking for a phrase to say to get past this with DirecTV. *


OK, apparently the HD package is an official way to get it, too. But if you read DirecTV's own page about it, it's clearly "part of the local channels package" too.

http://www.directv.com/see/landing/cbs_hd.html

If you go to http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressEntry.asp, you only see KPIX listed in the CBS stations when entering your address, right? If there's another one, then you need a waiver. But if KPIX is the only one, then you only need DirecTV to fix their problem. Supposedly there is a group of CSR's specifically handling CBS HD and eligibility; ask to speak to one of them if the first CSR can't help you.


----------



## chickenscratch

Thank you very much Doug.

It turns out that all the CSR has to do is try to add the channel (81 in my case), and the computer will reject it if you cannot have it.

The CBS HD CSR I talked to said that my area was blanket waivered, but that didn't always mean anything, he'd try to add it and the computer would act as a final arbiter.

The computer allowed it, and I am in business. Too bad it didn't happen when I first called, CBS isn't in HDTV at the moment.

So, the secret passphrase in the future may be simply to attempt to cajole the CSR into trying to add it.

Thanks again Doug.


----------



## jjmpeters

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> [*What hardware do I need from DirecTV?*
> 
> 
> Using a 2xX multiswitch to provide the 101 satellite to certain receivers and still having 2 outputs which can see all 3 satellites (101/110/119).[/B]


I want to feed the dual tuners on the HR10-250, the duals on my SD DirecTiVo, and two other DirecTV receivers. I've got the dish with the integrated multiswitch. Can I take two of the feeds off of this dish and run it into my external 4x4 multiswitch so I can now have 6 feeds? Or must it be a 2x4 like in the picture from the FAQ here?

Thx.


----------



## MCodanti

> _Originally posted by jjmpeters _
> *I want to feed the dual tuners on the HR10-250, the duals on my SD DirecTiVo, and two other DirecTV receivers. I've got the dish with the integrated multiswitch. Can I take two of the feeds off of this dish and run it into my external 4x4 multiswitch so I can now have 6 feeds? Or must it be a 2x4 like in the picture from the FAQ here?
> 
> Thx. *


That should work just fine, just make sure that the HR10-250 gets two straight from the dish, and that you tell the SD DirecTiVos that you only have a single LNB with two cables.


----------



## jjmpeters

Thanks MCodanti

Another question. My 4x4 has 2 ports labeled as Sat A In 13v and 18 V, and 2 ports labeled as Sat B In 13v and 18 V.

Which two of the four ports should I hook up to?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by jjmpeters _
> *Thanks MCodanti
> 
> Another question. My 4x4 has 2 ports labeled as Sat A In 13v and 18 V, and 2 ports labeled as Sat B In 13v and 18 V.
> 
> Which two of the four ports should I hook up to? *


You want to feed two signals to the Sat A inputs; then the outputs of this 4x4 multiswitch will distribute the 101° satellite signals to any/all of the 4 tuners connected to the outputs.


----------



## darinp2

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but in looking through the posts I've seen a lot of talk around this, but haven't seen a definitive answer. 

If I use a 5x8 switch to wire 2 lines to one HR10-250, 2 lines to another HR10-250 and one line to a DTC-100, do I need to worry about conflicts? I think that the answer is, "Yes, I need to worry about conflicts if one receiver is trying to select something on 110 and one on 119, but not if they are on the same LNB." However, I'm not sure and figured I should find out before I consider buying another HR10-250. Also, years ago I thought there was a limitation about watching different channels in different rooms and then there was a limit of 2. Is that limitation now gone and down to the LNB level (or was it never there)? That is, can you now watch 8 different channels at one time with a 5x8 switch and 8 receivers?

Thanks,
Darin


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by darinp2 _
> *Sorry if this is an obvious question, but in looking through the posts I've seen a lot of talk around this, but haven't seen a definitive answer.
> 
> If I use a 5x8 switch to wire 2 lines to one HR10-250, 2 lines to another HR10-250 and one line to a DTC-100, do I need to worry about conflicts? I think that the answer is, "Yes, I need to worry about conflicts if one receiver is trying to select something on 110 and one on 119, but not if they are on the same LNB." However, I'm not sure and figured I should find out before I consider buying another HR10-250. Also, years ago I thought there was a limitation about watching different channels in different rooms and then there was a limit of 2. Is that limitation now gone and down to the LNB level (or was it never there)? That is, can you now watch 8 different channels at one time with a 5x8 switch and 8 receivers? *


Darin, you're probably remembering WAY back before DirecTV had multiswitches and they sold two different 18" dish configurations, one with an LNB with a single output, and one with an LNB with two outputs. The latter was the most they had, so you were limited to two receivers without installing another dish.

The 5x8 multiswitch provides 8 completely independent outputs to feed tuners with; there will be no conflicts or limitations at any tuner.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by darinp2 _
> *
> 
> If I use a 5x8 switch to wire 2 lines to one HR10-250, 2 lines to another HR10-250 and one line to a DTC-100, do I need to worry about conflicts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darin *


Be sure to use a "cascadeable" multiswitch such as the Terk

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=&PROD=SPBMS58


----------



## steeler

*Does anyone know when 4.0.1.b will be available for the HR10-250? I would really like to get the USB Wireless Connectivity I enjoy with my series 2 SD Tivo*


----------



## Joe Q

Just a clarification please.

When I was getting ready to sell my DISH 921 HD DVR and get the HD TIVO,
folks were saying that the HD TIVO had one up on the 921 because the HD TIVO had dual OTA tuners.

Did I get incorrect info?

My now sold 921 had ONE OTA input and TWO Satellite inputs.

The HD TIVO that I am now in the middle of hooking up has ONE OTA input and TWO Satellite inputs.


Not a big deal because I have an IR switch for my two OTA UHF roof antennas but just wanted to make sure that this model of the HD TIVO is supposed to only have ONE OTA input.

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## BrettStah

Joe Q, the OTA input is split internally inside of the HD-Tivo.


----------



## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *Joe Q, the OTA input is split internally inside of the HD-Tivo. *


Okay, now you really lost me.

What is split?

I have 2 UHF antennas which point to 2 different cities so I can get the digital stations from either city. 
I currently do that with my dual tuner PC HDTV card.


----------



## BrettStah

The HD-Tivo has one input for OTA, and that one input is split internally. You will need to look into combining your two different cables from your two antennas into a single input.


----------



## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *The HD-Tivo has one input for OTA, and that one input is split internally. You will need to look into combining your two different cables from your two antennas into a single input. *


I have been fooling with OTA digitalfor 3-4 years now so I have a petty good idea of what I am doing.

You can not just combine 2 antennas as the frequencies tend to cancel themselves out. It can be done if you put attennuators that notch out chunkcs of frequencies around the stations you don't get.

In my case that won't work because between DC and Baltimore several are very close to each other. EG. I get a channel 39 from DC and 38 from Baltimore. 
Guess what - 38 is CBS who is the HD leader
Would not do to lose that station

For the past 2+ years, I have been using a MYHD PC card that accepts dual RF inputs and worrks seamlessly in the program guide. The SW is about as simple to use as a TIVO and I have 'unlimted' disk space since it is PC based.
Besides, I can dump the recordings out to my D-VHS.
BTW, the antenna RF switch which is IR controlled via my remote that I mentioned is hooked up AFTER the MYHD card.

I probably will not even use the OTA capability on the HD TIVO because of what I said about my MYHD PC card and not use up that valuable 250 GB disk on the HD TIVO.

I was only curious about all the great reports about the tuner in the HD TIVO and wanted to see if it was true because I have 3 troublesome channels from DC and Bmore.
I got confused when hooking up because I only saw a single RF connector for OTA.

[/i]Okay to the point cause no one is explaining to me what 'splitting internally' means.[/i]

*Is this internal split actually splitting the 8VSB signal from the NTSC signal so you get the digital and analog stations so that the TIVO shows the digital stations and the analogie stations?*

If so, then I guess calling that a dual tuner system is a play on words and I have no use for wasting disk space on analogue stations on the HD tivo.

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## BrettStah

The single OTA ATSC input is internally split to feed two tuners inside. I don't know how else to word it. The HD-Tivo does not receive nor record NTSC at all.


----------



## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by BrettStah _
> *The single OTA ATSC input is internally split to feed two tuners inside. I don't know how else to word it. The HD-Tivo does not receive nor record NTSC at all. *


Sorry for being so dense. I get it now.

My problem was a mindset from 3+ years of using OTA PC HDTV cards and OTA HD STB's which supported signals from 2 antennas on dual RF connections,BUT only tuned to a single channel at a time.

That was what I had stuck in my brain as dual tuners.
Those accepted dual inputs but only a single channel cold be tuned to.

The TIVO analogy is like PIP on a TV where the TIVO tunes to 2 different stations on the same feed.

Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes once I get an idea in my head as to how something should work, I don't see the obvious.

I appreciate your not losing your patience with me.

Joe, Sheepeshly signing off.


----------



## timatraw

Will the HD Tivo be able to record OTA HD shows with an antenna hookup?
Tim


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by timatraw _
> *Will the HD Tivo be able to record OTA HD shows with an antenna hookup?
> Tim *


yes, it can even record two different HD channels at the same time from your antenna.


----------



## dreaux

Is it my imagination but there is not on/off button on my HD tivo remote.
I see one for the TV but not one for the HD tivo. Is it now to stay on all the time?
Jim


----------



## jjmpeters

> _Originally posted by dreaux _
> *Is it my imagination but there is not on/off button on my HD tivo remote.
> I see one for the TV but not one for the HD tivo. Is it now to stay on all the time?
> Jim *


TiVo's always need to be on, or they won't be able to record programs. I even have mine on a small UPS since it takes several minutes for it to synch up with the satellites if there is a power loss.


----------



## arxaw

> _Originally posted by dreaux _
> *Is it my imagination but there is not on/off button on my HD tivo remote.
> I see one for the TV but not one for the HD tivo. Is it now to stay on all the time?
> Jim *


Most satellite and digicable boxes when "off" are really still on, and consume roughly the same amount of power either way. Only the output is turned off. The only way to turn them completely off is to remove the power source. But most will have to reboot and re-acquire program guides when power is reapplied, so it's best to leave them on all the time.


----------



## vikesman

I am looking at possibly getting the HD Tivo. My question is: I have also looked at some of the DVD Burners that have Tivo with them (Pioneer Elite), Tivo Basic comes free with them, and you can pay to upgrade to Tivo + with season pass. If I get the new HD Tivo, will Tivo basic be free there as well. I am already a Direct customer, but as of yet to experience Tivo.

Thanks.

paul


----------



## feldon23

Absolutely not. Only the DVD recorders have this VCR-like functionality. All other TiVos require full-fledged TiVo service with Season Passes and Wishlists. TiVo Basic has nothing of what makes a TiVo a TiVo.

I really don't think you oughta worry about $4.95/mo TiVo service on a $999 TiVo.


----------



## dreaux

> _Originally posted by jjmpeters _
> *TiVo's always need to be on, or they won't be able to record programs. I even have mine on a small UPS since it takes several minutes for it to synch up with the satellites if there is a power loss. *


Not true. My old Sony sat-60 has an on/off button on it. The off botton puts the tivo in a standby mode. Tivo will record in- on or standby mode.


----------



## dreaux

Is it worth getting a Monster Hdmi to Dvi cable. Will it make a difference over the cable that came with the Hdtv Tivo?


----------



## DVRaholic

> _Originally posted by dreaux _
> *Is it worth getting a Monster Hdmi to Dvi cable. Will it make a difference over the cable that came with the Hdtv Tivo? *


No difference whatsoever !! I just returned my monster Hdmi/Dvi cable to crutchfield. I was hoping there would be an improvment over the supplied Hdmi cable, but unfortunatly there is NO Imporovment at all on the HdTivo with the Monster cable.


----------



## typrsn

Feldon,

I have a Phase III dish. Up until last night I had a 4X8 switch connected to it and received all programming just fine. After installing a Spaun SMS5801 5X8 switch, I lost all DirecTV HD channels and now some of the channels are scrambled. Is there a compatibility issue?


----------



## Marty M

This is probably a dumb question but am hoping someone can confirm that I've got this right. 

Assume you're recording an HD show. Is this correct -- the HR10-250 will record in HD even if you have selected 480i on the front of the unit -- and are watching that show or some other recording using 480i. Bottom line is that no matter what you've selected on the front of the unit for format, an HD show will always be recorded in HD.

So the unit records in HD and then you select the format for output. (Which suggests there is some 'universal' HD signal -- I don't know how else to describe it -- and the unit can then output it in any of the formats. Rather than having the unit "set" to the correct format in advance.)

Then you have the option to play it back in HD (say 1080i) or in SD (480i) to record to DVD or VCR.

Have I got that right?

Thanks for any responses.


----------



## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by Marty M _
> *This is probably a dumb question but am hoping someone can confirm that I've got this right.
> 
> Bottom line is that no matter what you've selected on the front of the unit for format, an HD show will always be recorded in HD.
> 
> *


Only dumb questions are the ones not asked.

The TIVO records the datastream in the native format ie. NO preprcessing is done on the data except to do whatever encryption they do on the disk.

The 480I/P,720P,1080I is all done post processing during Playback so your bottom line is 100% correct.


----------



## Wisegoat

There are filters on the Spaun switch that need to be set. They should look like small, blue, flathead screws. I believe you need to set them to 22hz. I am not around mine right now, or I would tell you precisely. Go to Spaun's website, www.spaun.com and look for the settings. I had the same issue initially.


----------



## typrsn

> _Originally posted by pornogoat _
> *There are filters on the Spaun switch that need to be set. They should look like small, blue, flathead screws. I believe you need to set them to 22hz. I am not around mine right now, or I would tell you precisely. Go to Spaun's website, www.spaun.com and look for the settings. I had the same issue initially. *


After going to the site, it looks like the switch is not compatible. I will have to upgrade to the SMS5802. I have HD. The SMS5801 is only compatible with SD.


----------



## KenW

How some links to information about antennas?

Like: 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## Budget_HT

> _Originally posted by typrsn _
> *After going to the site, it looks like the switch is not compatible. I will have to upgrade to the SMS5802. I have HD. The SMS5801 is only compatible with SD. *


I have the 5801 and it works fine for HD with the older 18x24 3-LNB dish with the Sat B/C combiner. The old dish provides direct outputs from the 110 and 119 LNBs, eliminating the need for the 22 kHz tones to lock the newer 18x20 Phase III integrated multiswitch outputs to 110/119.

So, the 5801 is not SD-only. You can also buy external 22 kHz injectors to make the older multiswitches (like the 5801) work with the Phase III integrated dish.


----------



## typrsn

> _Originally posted by Budget_HT _
> *I have the 5801 and it works fine for HD with the older 18x24 3-LNB dish with the Sat B/C combiner. The old dish provides direct outputs from the 110 and 119 LNBs, eliminating the need for the 22 kHz tones to lock the newer 18x20 Phase III integrated multiswitch outputs to 110/119.
> 
> So, the 5801 is not SD-only. You can also buy external 22 kHz injectors to make the older multiswitches (like the 5801) work with the Phase III integrated dish. *


Thanks Dave. Where might I find the external 22 kHz injectors you speak of?


----------



## KenW

Attached is a picture of my Spaun. I must be missing the adjustment?


----------



## Budget_HT

> _Originally posted by typrsn _
> *Thanks Dave. Where might I find the external 22 kHz injectors you speak of? *


Here is one example of the tone injectors: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SP22TGEN

KenW:

Your Spaun is a 5801 just like mine. I noticed that you have no cables feeding the B-side inputs on the right side of the multiswitch. That is where the cables from the 110/119 satellites must be connected if you have an older 18x24 3-LNB dish. If you have the newer Phase III 18x20 integrated dish and multiswitch, then you would either need to add two tone injectors (like the example above) or change to a different multiswitch model that has the 22 kHz tone injectors built in. These are typically called cascadable, although there are older models without 22 kHz injectors that also carried that label.

Either way, you MUST have FOUR cables from your dish to the 5x8 multiswitch to get all three satellites. The way yours is currently set up, you will only get the 101 satellite (including any HD channels that might be carried on the 101 satellite).


----------



## ahartman

I did a couple searches and read quite a few threads and didn't see this answered anywhere.

Can I use an unactivated HD TiVo to pull in OTA HD channels? I won't be able to get D* out here to swap out my dish until next week (and I won't activate it until I know I can see all 3 birds) but I'd like to start getting an HD picture - I realize I may not have any PVR functionality and I'm okay with that - just want the OTA tuner part.

Sorry if i missed the answer somewhere - I did try to look, I promise!

Thanks in advance!


----------



## BrettStah

ahartman, according to the user manual for the HD-Tivo, you'll have no recording capabilities, but will be able to pause and switch back and forth between both OTA tuners.


----------



## ahartman

Thanks Brett - I haven't even opened the box yet so I hadn't looked at the manual.

Much appreciated!


----------



## duffin

I've tried the back door of Zero + ThumbsUp to no avail to determine where the storage stands on my HD for recorded programs.

Does this backdoor work on the HR10-250?


----------



## tlrowley

I have a question about a Season Pass - I don't have my HDTivo, yet , and I'm coming from Replaytv - I'm new to Tivo, so please be gentle.

My local CBS station (KOVR Sacramento) operates on a 7pm Prime time for it's SD signal, and 8pm for the HD. That means for most 8pm programs, there's an SD version on first. For example, tonight at 7pm we get "Joan of Arcadia" in SD and the same episode, in HD, at 8pm on the same channel. Obviously, I want to ensure that I get the HD version recorded in my Season Pass. Am I going to have a problem with this? Can the SP be configured to ignore the 7pm showing, and catch the 8pm?

Thanks for your help,
Tracey


----------



## duffin

Season Pass is channel specific.

The HD is one channel and the SD is another in your case. You should have no problem.


----------



## tlrowley

Thanks for the reply, duffin, but maybe I wasn't clear. There are two identical episodes, SD at 7 , HD at 8 , on the same channel - 13-1 (stupid, I know). Obviously, I'm concerned that the season pass will find the first, SD, one, and ignore the second.

Tracey


----------



## duffin

Nope, it will record both. It will also record up to the # of episodes you indicate in the setup.

Another option is the Manual approach to setup time, days and channel. I do this for series like "Joan."


----------



## tlrowley

Okay, recording both isn't a huge problem, I'll just delete the SD.

Why do you find it necessary to set up a manual record for "Joan"? Not that I'm trying to be nosy, I just want to learn!

Thanks for the help,
Tracey


----------



## duffin

> _Originally posted by tlrowley _
> *Okay, recording both isn't a huge problem, I'll just delete the SD.
> 
> Why do you find it necessary to set up a manual record for "Joan"? Not that I'm trying to be nosy, I just want to learn!
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> Tracey *


So it doesn't record any more than the time and date I want versus the extra runs.

Manual will save you from having the delete the HD unless you are trying to capture every "Joan" aired on 13-1.


----------



## tlrowley

But manual won't find it at a different time, right? Say if it's an hour later, or a "very special" 2-hour episode?

Tracey


----------



## duffin

Correct. But it will record a lot of episodes you don't want.


----------



## wmccain

> _Originally posted by tlrowley _
> *There are two identical episodes, SD at 7 , HD at 8 , on the same channel - 13-1 (stupid, I know).*


Are you sure they don't use two different _subchannels_? Say, 13-1 for HD and 13-2 for SD? That is the typical arrangement used by most broadcasters in my area.


----------



## tlrowley

Positive - at 8pm 13-2 becomes the subchannel used for SD. This only ooccurs for the 7-8pm block, because of the different start for prime time shows. 
The listings at kovr.com do show the situation I'm talking about, but they use Titantv, and have the SD and HD shows reversed at 7 and 8, but they do show the same epsiode back-to-back. On Thursday for example you have

___________13-1 HD_______________13-2
7pm_______Joan (SD) _____________ Joan(SD)
8pm_______ Joan (HD)____________CSI (SD)
9pm________CSI (HD)_____________Without a Trace (SD)
10pm_______ WaT (HD)_____________Local news.

Bizarre, huh? I guess a manual record, and keeping an eye out for schedule changes would be the best thing.

Tracey


----------



## duffin

Don't go by Titan TV. Go by the DirecTV channel guide.


----------



## Little Dude

tlrowley, be careful with that season pass in Sac. It will try to record the first Joan of Arcadia on 13-1 and skip the second (especially since I set it to record first run only). The first showing is standard (with the pretty black boxes on the side) and the second is high def. Under the season pass manager, go to the upcoming episodes and click on the second showing (the 8 for Joan of Arcadia).


----------



## tlrowley

Hey, Little Dude - thanks for the info - that's exactly what I was hoping to find - someone with real world experience with the situation in Sacramento. Now all I need is for GG to get their shipment in!

Thanks,
Tracey


----------



## phaseshift

I'm new around here; replying 5 months after the message below.
I just got one of these cool DirectTV HD DVR units. Its not installed yet. But as an owner of a fixed-pixel display, 720p native Samsung HLN, I have found it beneficial to change the output of my cable box (to be retired next week) to match the broadcast signal HD signal.

My TV's Faroujda chipset simply does a better job of converting 1080i to 720p than the chips in my Motorola HD cable box. A 1080i signal looks crisper when converted by my tv than it does when converted by my cable box. The difference is subtle, and most consumers probably wouldn't care.

Has anyone found the same experience with the DirectTV units? I'll certainly play with it once my installer comes; but I expect that I'll want ABC-HD and ESPN-HD (and eventually FOX-HD when that happens) to be output in 720p, and the rest in 1080i.



> _Originally posted by Darin _
> *The ONLY display technology in use today that doesn't have an inherent "native" resolution is CRT. CRT can simply change the number of lines it does in one scan to accommodate any number of resolutions. But unfortunately, most CRT HD sets available don't take advantage of this ability. The electronics within them are designed to scan at one or maybe two specific frequencies (usually 1080, and maybe additionally 480 for SD), and separate electronics in the set run the image through interpolation when the incoming signal does not match that resolution. Why they do this, I don't know, because the picture would look best if displayed at it's original resolution rather than interpolated to another. Practically all CRT based computer monitors, even cheap sub-$100 ones, do multi-scan, so why this ability can mostly only be found in high-end projectors is a mystery to me.
> 
> Anyway, all the other display types have a fixed pixel geometry, no matter what you do with the incoming signal, they only have a specific amount of physical pixels to work with, so they MUST interpolate the incoming signal to match their native resolution, if it's not the same already.
> 
> So this is why most (all???) STBs don't simply output whatever resolution the original signal is, because unless you have one of those relatively rare CRT sets that can do multiscan, the TV is going to convert it to a specific resolution anyway. So all things being equal, it's better to do that conversion in the STB while the signal is still digital, and it ensures the guide and other STB generated graphics look better (they don't end up going through an interpolation).
> 
> That's why I said the ability to switch output resolutions would benefit high-end CRT owners, because this would let them override the automatic interpolation to a specific resolution, and get the best PQ possible out of the incoming signal. And those who wanted to take advantage of that ability would most likely know which networks are which. For everyone else, leaving it set to the native resolution of your TV is generally best. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, ABC, ESPN, and in the fall, FOX, use 720p, while all the others use 1080i. *


----------



## phaseshift

Keep in mind, the current plan is for stations to give up one of their frequencies when the transition to digital reaches 85% of homes. FCC says 2006, we all know it will take longer. But eventually, unless the rules are changed, the stations will go to just one channel, and if they have a VHF, they're likely to use it.



> _Originally posted by Gromit _
> *Thanks! I just checked and the stations I need are UHF only (no VHF). I guess that makes it a bit easier. I'll check out the Channel Master 4228. Ooops, NBC is VHF.
> 
> Is there a problem with having my switch outside? That just makes it easier to run the lines upstairs (2 story family room makes things difficult). I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like the OTA antenna signal can go to the switch or the receiver. I'll have to figure out which will be easier.
> 
> I think I'm going to be OK with the OTA signal strength, I just hope I can get away with putting the antenna in the attic vs on the roof. *


----------



## vscotta

Here's an interesting articel regarding the DirecTV and Tivo relationship going forward.

http://msn-cnet.com.com/For+TiVo,+a...tml?part=msn-cnet&subj=ns_5229737&tag=tg_home


----------



## phaseshift

> _Originally posted by Special_Ed21 _
> *I have the Samsung HLN617w DLP and have pre-ordered the HR10-250 HD. It looks like I will be switching resolutions often using the up arrow on the remote or the front panel switch. Unfortunately my mother is very tech challenged and will be very confused as to which resolution to use and will probably just watch whatever setting it happens to be on.
> 
> I want to know if the SD signals will look better with the DVI output than my current Hughes HDVR2 S-video output. Any thoughts on this?
> *


I don't have the HD Tivo hooked up yet, but in my previous experience with DVI-enabled DVD players attached to my Samsung HLN50something, 480i or p over DVI results in a very small picture. It is not scaled to fill the screen horizontally. Its like a window in the middle of the screen. I imagine it will be the same with the HD Tivo and the Samsung; thus I will only be switching between 720p and 1080i, with 720p being used for 480i and 480p.


----------



## phaseshift

> _Originally posted by Bigg _
> *D8 should offer INHD and INHD2, currently only for cable people. I don't have an HDTV yet, as the HDTV situation in hartford-NH is not terribly pretty. *


On INHD's web site, appears the legend:
ONLY ON CABLE.
It's owned by Comcast, Cox and Time Warner. I don't think it will be made available to DirectTV.


----------



## Castaa

This is an excellent thread.

One question:
*Do I need a connected phone line to download the TiVo program information to use the TiVo/DirectTV HD recorder? Or does the TiVo recorder use DirectTV's program information downloaded from the satellite?*

Thanks.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Castaa _
> *This is an excellent thread.
> 
> One question:
> Do I need a connected phone line to download the TiVo program information to use the TiVo/DirectTV HD recorder? Or does the TiVo recorder use DirectTV's program information downloaded from the satellite? *


You need a phone line connected to do the initial setup. However if you can set up PPP over serial through your computer, you can manage without.

You only need a phone line connected for DirecTV PPV payment data to be sent back, and for TiVo software updates and anonymous viewer data reporting (though PPP over serial works for software updates and anonymous viewer data).


----------



## Bigg

Sat


----------



## Castaa

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *You need a phone line connected to do the initial setup. However if you can set up PPP over serial through your computer, you can manage without.
> 
> You only need a phone line connected for DirecTV PPV payment data to be sent back, and for TiVo software updates and anonymous viewer data reporting (though PPP over serial works for software updates and anonymous viewer data). *


So once the box is setup (one time only ideally) via the phone line, I shouldn't need to reconnect the PVR/DTV Receiver to a phone line for normal TiVo operation? (This is important because a nearest phone line is over 50 feet away.)

And thanks for the reply!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Castaa _
> *So once the box is setup (one time only ideally) via the phone line, I shouldn't need to reconnect the PVR/DTV Receiver to a phone line for normal TiVo operation? (This is important because a nearest phone line is over 50 feet away.)
> 
> And thanks for the reply! *


Yeah, you could just reconnect it for a short time and force a daily call when you heard a new software update was out for it.

But if you've got a phone line, and it's just a matter of connecting to it over a distance, there's wireless powerline phone extensions that work just fine with the unit that you could use, then you'd also have the PPV functionality and no worries about watching for software updates around here.


----------



## Castaa

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Yeah, you could just reconnect it for a short time and force a daily call when you heard a new software update was out for it.
> 
> But if you've got a phone line, and it's just a matter of connecting to it over a distance, there's wireless powerline phone extensions that work just fine with the unit that you could use, then you'd also have the PPV functionality and no worries about watching for software updates around here. *


Well heck. I'm sold! 

What is currently the best method/deal of getting a DirecTV HR10-250 DirecTV with TiVo, the DirectTV SD/HD packages and the HD dish?

And again thank you for taking the time and replying!


----------



## Bigg

You need Totoal choice or better. If you want HDTV programming from the sat you will need the HD package and/or HBO and/or SHO. It is $999 everywhere and is under high demand, so just order it anywhere you can get it soon from. They should give you the Phase 3 dish (multisat) for free if you sign for a year of Total choice with HDTV package.


----------



## auee

Generic video question here.......my CRT TV is only capable of displaying 480i, 480p, and 1080i according to the manual. How does the HD-Tivo handle 720p with my display options? Does it do a conversion or will I not be able to view stations broadcasting with the 720p format? Does a FAQ on any of this exist somewhere?

Thanks!


----------



## BrettStah

> _Originally posted by auee _
> *Generic video question here.......my CRT TV is only capable of displaying 480i, 480p, and 1080i according to the manual. How does the HD-Tivo handle 720p with my display options? Does it do a conversion or will I not be able to view stations broadcasting with the 720p format? Does a FAQ on any of this exist somewhere?
> 
> Thanks! *


This is the FAQ thread you've posted your question to. From the first post in this thread:


> *What output formats/resizing does this DirecTV HD TiVo support?*
> 
> A Setup menu allows you to specify the Output Formats (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) your TV is capable of displaying. While watching live TV or a recorded program, you can simply press the UP arrow on your remote to toggle between the output formats your TV supports. All programs are converted to the selected format. There is also a button on the front of the unit giving the same control.


----------



## RMSko

I've read all the posts in this thread and have a few followup questions that I'm hoping to get some help with:

1. Is there any way to set the TiVo so that it will automatically switch the output format to the native output format (I have a Samsung HLP and I'd rather let it do the converting)?

2. Can the TiVo indicate swhat the native output format of a particular program is?

3. Does the TiVo have a signal meter? If not, what is the best (easiest, quickest and least expensive) way to set my outdoor antenna to get the best signal (I live in NJ about 20 miles from NYC).

4. If I have the TiVo set to 720p, for a 480i (SD) program, does anyone know how the picture will look on a Samsung DLP set? Will it fill the entire screen?

5. In the TiVo setup, there is an option for "TV Aspect Correction". The two choices are "Full" and "Panel (letterboxing/sidebars)". The manual then says that if the TV supports "zoom" mode you can select "full" and the picture will be stretched and no side bars will be shown. I'm not sure which is the best option to select for the Samsung HLP set.

Thanks.


----------



## Scaroth

> _Originally posted by RMSko _
> *
> 1. Is there any way to set the TiVo so that it will automatically switch the output format to the native output format (I have a Samsung HLP and I'd rather let it do the converting)?
> *


No.


> *
> 2. Can the TiVo indicate swhat the native output format of a particular program is?
> *


No.


> *
> 3. Does the TiVo have a signal meter? If not, what is the best (easiest, quickest and least expensive) way to set my outdoor antenna to get the best signal (I live in NJ about 20 miles from NYC).
> *


Yes - you can test the signals of the satellites and the local digital channels.


> *
> 4. If I have the TiVo set to 720p, for a 480i (SD) program, does anyone know how the picture will look on a Samsung DLP set? Will it fill the entire screen?
> *


I don't have this set, but in my experience it's best to output as close to native as possible because up-converts of 480i don't look real good to me.


> *
> 5. In the TiVo setup, there is an option for "TV Aspect Correction". The two choices are "Full" and "Panel (letterboxing/sidebars)". The manual then says that if the TV supports "zoom" mode you can select "full" and the picture will be stretched and no side bars will be shown. I'm not sure which is the best option to select for the Samsung HLP set.
> *


The best thing to do is to try them out and find what you like best.


> *
> Thanks. *


You're welcome!


----------



## RMSko

> _Originally posted by Scaroth _
> *Yes - you can test the signals of the satellites and the local digital channels.*


In looking through the manual I noticed that during setup there is an option to "Test Satellite Signal", however, there is no mention of it also testing the OTA signal and the picture in the manual seems to limit this to the satellite signal. Does the manual just miss this point and is this the place in setup where it will also test the OTA signal?


----------



## Budget_HT

Can't remember exactly where the OTA signal test/meter is in the menu structure, but it is close to the one for satellite and works about the same.

There is also a two-button operation on the front of the TiVo unit that provides a bunch of information on a single screen, including signal strength/quality for all four tuners. This feature is not documented to my knowledge (in the manual). I don't remember which two buttons off-hand (my notes are at home) and I don't recall whether the readings on this page are static (frozen readings from the time the page was initially displayed) or dynamic (signal strength/quality readings varying in real time). I am at work and cannot verify any of this right now.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by RMSko _
> *In looking through the manual I noticed that during setup there is an option to "Test Satellite Signal", however, there is no mention of it also testing the OTA signal and the picture in the manual seems to limit this to the satellite signal. Does the manual just miss this point and is this the place in setup where it will also test the OTA signal? *


You can find the sat/ota signal meter by:
--hitting the DirecTv button on remote 
--messages & setup
--settings
--satellite & off-air antenna

Checking the sat/ota antenna strength is fun.

enjoy, 
Tom


----------



## RMSko

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *You can find the sat/ota signal meter by:
> --hitting the DirecTv button on remote
> --messages & setup
> --settings
> --satellite & off-air antenna
> 
> Checking the sat/ota antenna strength is fun.
> 
> enjoy,
> Tom *


Excellent, thanks!


----------



## Manolo

Just got my unit and plugged it in in no time. Activated with DirecTV and got my HD programming going. I set up a Zenith indoor ATSC antenna and got 90% on my OTA channels as well.

The only problem is, though S-video looks perfectly crisp, component cables in 480i, 480p, or 1080i look like bad MPEGs. The text is all blockly like a VCD would look. 

Any help? I'll try different component cables tomorrow, but that input on the TV works perfectly for other devices hooked up with component cables...



UPDATE: I turned the noise reduction and sharpness all the way down and now the picture is perfect on the component connections! Thanks to all for the responses.


----------



## Scaroth

> _Originally posted by Manolo _
> *
> The only problem is, though S-video looks perfectly crisp, component cables in 480i, 480p, or 1080i look like bad MPEGs. The text is all blockly like a VCD would look.
> *


It might have something to do with your display's native resolution - does it conform to what it's given? The s-vhs input will always be 480i and the display will know this, but on component it might be locking the resolution??


----------



## RobHT

Quick question.
I have 2 feeds coming into the HR10-250 from the sat and I selected the 2 input option during the initial setup, but I am continually getting scheduling conflicts when I change channels while it is recording what I am watching.
What gives?


----------



## mercurial

> _Originally posted by RobHT _
> *Quick question.
> I have 2 feeds coming into the HR10-250 from the sat and I selected the 2 input option during the initial setup, but I am continually getting scheduling conflicts when I change channels while it is recording what I am watching.
> What gives? *


Do you have suggestions or Starz On Demand enabled? Is it possible it's recording one of those on the other tuner? Are you completely sure you don't have two things scheduled to record? Try doing a down arrow to swap tuners and see if the other one is recording something then this happens.


----------



## RobHT

mercurial, 
Thanks for the response.


> Do you have suggestions or Starz On Demand enabled?


Yes, I have suggestions enabled but no Starz. Should I turn 'suggestions' off?


> Try doing a down arrow to swap tuners and see if the other one is recording something then this happens.


I will give that a try. If only one thing is being recorded, does the HD-Tivo automatically switch to the 2nd tuner when I change channels or do I have to manually instruct it to do so?


----------



## mercurial

> _Originally posted by RobHT _
> *mercurial,
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> Yes, I have suggestions enabled but no Starz. Should I turn 'suggestions' off?
> 
> I will give that a try. If only one thing is being recorded, does the HD-Tivo automatically switch to the 2nd tuner when I change channels or do I have to manually instruct it to do so? *


Well, I turn off suggestions personally. With all the extra recording space, it just makes for too much stuff in the lists. I go and look at the suggestion list now and again and pick some thing to record. So that's a personal choice. If you turn know it's a suggestion being recorded, you can just abort it if you want to watch something live. The only downside of that is you probably end up with a "partial" recording in your list.

If the second tuner is free and the current tuner is being recorded and you change channels, it should switch to the second tuner automatically. The down arrow (or LiveTV) button lets you toggle between the two if you're curious what each one is doing but you don't *have* to do it to make it work.


----------



## dswallow

Aborted suggestion recordings are deleted from the Now Playing list automatically. Aborted explicitly configured recordings are left there.


----------



## bigthree17

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this site, and I just wanted to get your opinion. I have a Sony KF50-WE610 (LCD widescreen) TV. It only has one DVI input. Currently, I have it hooked up to my Samsung HD-931 DVD player (which I bought solely because it had a DVI connection). I just got the HR10-250 yesterday. Obviously I want the best pic resolution possible. So do you guys suggest I use the DVI input on my TV with the DVD player or the receiver? In which case I would use component video on the other.

I read somewhere that the HDMI/DVI connection on the HR10-250 can cause some wash-out on some TV's, but just wanted to see if anyone else has run into this issue and what you did.

Thanks.


----------



## leftcoastdave

I just helped a friend install that same Sony LCD TV and we connected his new HR10-250 via DVI. It looked spectacular. His HD TiVo is replacing a Hughes HD DirectV set top box and the TiVo looked every bit as good as the Hughes it was replacing.

Given the choice, I would hook up the 480p progressive scan DVD player via component and reserve the 1080i capable HD Tivo for the DVI port on your Sony.

Of course you could always set the devices up either way and then swap them before you make the final call on what works best for your situation.

Dave


----------



## mrmrlawrence

I am having trouble getting information out of all of the Direct TV support personnel as to whether the HR10-DVR-250 can support a Wide-band input.

I have access to Direct TV and Terrestrial HD through a distributed system installed in the condominium building in which I live. There is one huge dish on the roof, and apparently local terrestiral HD is modulated into the system from a yagi on the roof too.

I also understand that the terrestrial HD is modulated in such a way that only Direct TV receivers that can accept wide-band (like the Hughes HD-HTL) will work in my building.

Does anyone have any idea whether the Direct TV HD Tivo can do this?


----------



## dswallow

You are getting your DirecTV signal stacked. You only need a destacker to separate the 2 signals. The problem is that you're only getting signals from one satellite so you won't be able to get to 2/3rds of DirecTV's HD programming, since it's evenly spread right now across all 3 satellites.

The terrestrial HD is just included on the same cable; it's highly unlikely it's being remodulated in any way; that'd work with a regular diplexer to separate the stacked signal from the terrestrial signal.

But your main decision is figuring out if you can live with satellite HD channels only from the main 101&deg; satellite.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

dswallow thanks for the reply.

A couple of questions and confirmations:
1. You are correct that Terrestrial HD is on the same cable. Currently, all I need is a diplexer to split my signal to access the terrestrial.

2. What is a destacker and where do you normally get one?

3. As I understand it currently, the building which has the stacked Direct TV only has regular Direct TV (so the only HD program accessible at the moment is terrestrial). Apparently something has to be added to all the risers to get a full HD system. So all I want to do is ensure that if I buy the HD Tivo, it will work on the existing system. It sounds like the Hughes HD-HTL has an internal destacker, and you are telling me that the Tivo does not have one internal, but I can just add one to the signal path between wall and the HD Tivo and I should be good to go?


____________________

You are getting your DirecTV signal stacked. You only need a destacker to separate the 2 signals. The problem is that you're only getting signals from one satellite so you won't be able to get to 2/3rds of DirecTV's HD programming, since it's evenly spread right now across all 3 satellites.

The terrestrial HD is just included on the same cable; it's highly unlikely it's being remodulated in any way; that'd work with a regular diplexer to separate the stacked signal from the terrestrial signal.

But your main decision is figuring out if you can live with satellite HD channels only from the main 101° satell


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *dswallow thanks for the reply.
> 
> A couple of questions and confirmations:
> 1. You are correct that Terrestrial HD is on the same cable. Currently, all I need is a diplexer to split my signal to access the terrestrial.
> 
> 2. What is a destacker and where do you normally get one?
> 
> 3. As I understand it currently, the building which has the stacked Direct TV only has regular Direct TV (so the only HD program accessible at the moment is terrestrial). Apparently something has to be added to all the risers to get a full HD system. So all I want to do is ensure that if I buy the HD Tivo, it will work on the existing system. It sounds like the Hughes HD-HTL has an internal destacker, and you are telling me that the Tivo does not have one internal, but I can just add one to the signal path between wall and the HD Tivo and I should be good to go?*


A stacked signal has the 2 signals (odd & even transponders) from 101° combined, with one set of them block-shifted up above the first set (which'll be the 950MHz-1450MHz range). A destacker just does the opposite, providing either 2 distinct outputs, one of each group of signals (and then requiring a multiswitch), or combining the functionality of a multiswitch to allow the one output to be connected directly to a regular DirecTV receiver.

You should be able to get it through whoever installed that system, or whoever manages it. But you can also pick them up online, such as from http://www.9thtee.com/dssstuff.htm. The receiver you mentioned simply has this functionality built in. To enable both tuners, you'll need to provide two outputs for the receiver; so that means either destacking to separate outputs and using a multiswitch, getting the destacker with 2 receiver outputs, or getting a high frequency splitter and 2 destackers each with 1 receiver output.

You will be able to get the HD material broadcast on the 101° satellite, which is mainly just the CBS feed (if you qualify to get it) and 2 NFL HD feeds. My guess is at least some of whatever new HD channels DirecTV adds will end up on 101° as well, since that's where they're freeing up space currently used by locals. But you won't be able to get HBOHD or SHOHD or the HDNet channels or DISCOVERY HD without signals from 110° and 119°.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

thanks again for the understanding. The local personnel responsible for the building had a disincentive to share this information because it removes the need for the condominium to purchase $10K of work to rewire the condo system.

Now I know personally, I can use a destacker and use any box compatible with direct tv (not just those with an internal destacker like the HD_HTL).

Curiously, as I make the decisions for the condo, they have stated that at minimum, to carry Direct TV's HD channels (not just terrestrial/OTA), we need a second run of cable into the risers on each floor. Additionally they state that you then need an extra run of cable for each HD box you use beyond one. I don't know enough about stacked systems to understand the riser one (but from what you stated, I would hypothesize that to turn the condo into HD, they need a second satellite, so this new run into the risers is just carrying the new satellite signal into the multiswitcher/stacker in each closet), but their advice about needing a second run of cable if you have more than one HD tuner seems specious. You could destack a single cable feed multiple times depending upon how many tuners you have rather than having to have a direct line from the riser closet. 

Perhaps this sounds like blabber from someone who knows enough tech to sound dangerous, but really has no such background, or maybe I am on track here?


----------



## dswallow

Yeah, they'd need to at least run another cable to everyone, where they could stack the remaining 2 signals (a combined 110&deg;/119&deg; odd & even), then those people needing those signals would destack the 2 signals from that cable and connect all 4 destacked signals from the 2 cables to a 4xN or 5xN multswitch to feed their receivers. They would need 2 more satellite dishes as well, since it sounds like they use a larger-than-normal dish, and one of those would require a special LNB since the 110&deg; signal gets shifted a bit before getting to the receiver. 

Such is life; if a company commits to feeding a complex with the signal themselves, they need to be prepared to accomodate technological changes, too.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

After spending a good amount of time in the community studying tone generators, I think I fully understand what you are telling me.

1. Given the way HD works, you always need two lines minimum to carry HD signal since a set top box can only call for channels one of two ways: voltage differential, or tone differential. (I assume all current HD stb's including the HR10-250 has its own tone activated switch)

2. The way a stb calls for channels on 101 is exactly the way it is called for 110/119, thus you can't run it all on one line, but need two lines to do so.

3. However, in a condominium setting, what you could do is run the second line into the master cable jack junction point at each condo unit at which point you would install a multiswitch that would control the STB calls from inside the unit coming off of one internal cable line and stb.

4. This means you have only one line at inside the apartment at the stb (i.e. the HR10-250). However, you need a destacker between the wall line and the HR10 so that the stb sees all the signal coming from the 3 satellites. This also means that if you want multiple HD boxes, you need to have an extra line for each box since a stacked system could not handle multiple different HD calls coming from the same unit.

What do you think?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *After spending a good amount of time in the community studying tone generators, I think I fully understand what you are telling me.
> 
> 1. Given the way HD works, you always need two lines minimum to carry HD signal since a set top box can only call for channels one of two ways: voltage differential, or tone differential. (I assume all current HD stb's including the HR10-250 has its own tone activated switch)
> 
> 2. The way a stb calls for channels on 101 is exactly the way it is called for 110/119, thus you can't run it all on one line, but need two lines to do so.
> 
> 3. However, in a condominium setting, what you could do is run the second line into the master cable jack junction point at each condo unit at which point you would install a multiswitch that would control the STB calls from inside the unit coming off of one internal cable line and stb.
> 
> 4. This means you have only one line at inside the apartment at the stb (i.e. the HR10-250). However, you need a destacker between the wall line and the HR10 so that the stb sees all the signal coming from the 3 satellites. This also means that if you want multiple HD boxes, you need to have an extra line for each box since a stacked system could not handle multiple different HD calls coming from the same unit.
> 
> What do you think? *


I think you've generally got it. The stacking confuses things a bit, but if you ignore that for a moment, there are 4 different signals that must be provided to a multiswitch so that a receiver can request the one signal it needs to tune the requested channel. A combination of DC voltage and a 22kHz tone (or lack of tone) is what is currently used to control which signal the multiswitch delivers to the receiver.

It's possible to stack the 4 signals fed to a multiswitch using 2 cables, if cabling is a limitation, though this does require a lot of extra equipment. In a condominium/apartment setting, there are decisions to be made as to how to provide the signal to each unit. One can provide the 4 different signals and allow a multiswitch to be used in the apartment to feed any number of receivers, or one can provide the multiswitch output to the apartment, potentially limiting the apartment to a maximum of 3 or fewer tuners.... Though with 4 feeds from a multiswitch, you can feed another multiswitch.

The choices made in expanding a single satellite system can limit you in the future. DirecTV is going to be experimenting with Ka-band delivery of HD locals in the near future and this will require additional feeds to a multiswitch (likely a new design of multiswitch), so in rewiring a building for the 110°/119° satellite, some consideration should be given to making it easy to expand further, since it's often a whole lot cheaper to run additional cable at the same time than it is to come back a year later and add more.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Doug:

A shot in the dark here. After your very helpful thoughts, I went out to set up an HD Tivo on my condominium's stacked system. The system has one round sattelite dish with one LNB it looks like....this is a very large dish that serves all 50 units in the condo. The system is not fully HD. All Direct TV channels are non-HD, and only the terrestrial antennae that is also stacked into the system is HD (our conversation helped me understand what we need to do to get it fully HD). 

In the Satellite closets there appears to be a switch which takes the odd and even transponders and stacks them onto one cable drop....it appears that this drop is the one that is split and amplified multiple times to distribute to units. (I don't know if this helps, but the only recommended high-def receiver from our satellite providers is the Hughes HD-HTL, and previous to my troubles here, I was using a Sony Sat B-50).

The problem I am having is after installation of the HD Tivo with the use of a double destacker I found at 9thtee.com, the HD Tivo cannot seem to get any even transponder signal but for number 18. So install never completes as the unit can never pull the full satellite system. The install fails and says that it can't get the right side of 101(A).

Any thoughts on what I need to do to the system so that this does not occur and I can start using the HD Tivo, albeit primarily for the non-HD Direct TV programming that I get?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *A shot in the dark here. After your very helpful thoughts, I went out to set up an HD Tivo on my condominium's stacked system. The system has one round sattelite dish with one LNB it looks like....this is a very large dish that serves all 50 units in the condo. The system is not fully HD. All Direct TV channels are non-HD, and only the terrestrial antennae that is also stacked into the system is HD (our conversation helped me understand what we need to do to get it fully HD).
> 
> In the Satellite closets there appears to be a switch which takes the odd and even transponders and stacks them onto one cable drop....it appears that this drop is the one that is split and amplified multiple times to distribute to units. (I don't know if this helps, but the only recommended high-def receiver from our satellite providers is the Hughes HD-HTL, and previous to my troubles here, I was using a Sony Sat B-50).
> 
> The problem I am having is after installation of the HD Tivo with the use of a double destacker I found at 9thtee.com, the HD Tivo cannot seem to get any even transponder signal but for number 18. So install never completes as the unit can never pull the full satellite system. The install fails and says that it can't get the right side of 101(A).
> 
> Any thoughts on what I need to do to the system so that this does not occur and I can start using the HD Tivo, albeit primarily for the non-HD Direct TV programming that I get? *


What you describe as to how the signal is put together and distributed sounds exactly like it should. When you installed the dual destacker in your home did you use any splitters? In some respects it sounds like the upper block of signals from the dish is being blocked. If you used any splitters and they weren't rated for signals up to 2GHz (typically "regular" splitters are rated up to 1GHz then there's significant drop-off above), I'd expect to see half the signals missing. But I'm surprised to see you say transponder 18 gets through; presuming it's really transponder 18.

Looking at the spec sheet for the destacker, it's not clear if there's a DC block on the antenna side of the diplexer that's built in.

Many people have reported strange behaviors using Terk diplexers which pass DC voltage to the antenna input, when using them with the HR10-250. They have to use a DC Block at the antenna input to the HR10-250. It might be that this is what's going on with yours. I believe if you disconnect the antenna from HR10-250's antenna input, and you can complete guided setup, then you would know this is the problem you're having and can get a DC Block at Radio Shack to place there. If you could give that a try and let us know how it goes, then we can go from there.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Thanks again. No splitters with the destacker. I did detach the antennae connection and reset the satellite on the unit. Transponder 18 no longer registers, so that must have been some sort of late night anomaly. Still, no right side of 101(A) the unit states, so no functionality.

If you think it helpful, I can also go into the closet and get the names and types of stackers and in line amps and splitter that are used on the way to my units wiring. When I looked last night, they were wide band splitters. What also is odd is that the Sony B-50 worked fine win the set up, so I am not really sure what the HD DVR is sensing that is different.

In the meantime, I will open up the wall and see if there is a non-wideband splitter used to feed the second cable connection internal to my unit somewhere in the signal path.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *Thanks again. No splitters with the destacker. I did detach the antennae connection and reset the satellite on the unit. Transponder 18 no longer registers, so that must have been some sort of late night anomaly. Still, no right side of 101(A) the unit states, so no functionality.
> 
> If you think it helpful, I can also go into the closet and get the names and types of stackers and in line amps and splitter that are used on the way to my units wiring. When I looked last night, they were wide band splitters. What also is odd is that the Sony B-50 worked fine win the set up, so I am not really sure what the HD DVR is sensing that is different.
> 
> In the meantime, I will open up the wall and see if there is a non-wideband splitter used to feed the second cable connection internal to my unit somewhere in the signal path. *


 If the same connection is used successfully with the Sony B50 receiver then it should work with this destacker.

If you reverse the two connections from the destacker do you see the same problem? If you have the B50 receiver, or there's a neighbor you know with one, can you check the feed coming into your unit to be sure it works OK with a known-good receiver working elsewhere? If it works, then the same receiver should also work connected to the destacker, and then if that works there must be an issue with your HR10-250. If it doesn't work, then the destacker is at fault.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

What do you mean by reverse the connections on the destacker? I will trouble shoot accordingly, and I have a known working B50, so I will install and check what its read says on antennaes,
thanks..


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *What do you mean by reverse the connections on the destacker? I will trouble shoot accordingly, and I have a known working B50, so I will install and check what its read says on antennaes,
> thanks.. *


 Your dual destacker has two outputs, one for each tuner; I was just wondering if you get the same problem when you have the outputs wired to opposite tuners from where you tried originally.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Doug: I appreciate your input. I have put together every possible permutation using the destacker, the hr10-250 and the Sony B-50.

What I have found is that if I attach the cable from my wall directly into the B-50, I get most of the transponders. Also, if I use a diplexer (2 mHz) and use the satellite output from the diplexer, I get the same result.

However, if I plug the B-50 into one of the outputs of the destacker, and input into the destacker the direct wall feed or the diplexer feed, I only get the odd transponders.

Further, if I plug the HR-10 to the destacker or directly to the wall, I only get the odd transponders.

All this leads me to believe that maybe the stacking is going on in some odd frequency range. A range that the B50 or the HD-HTL can handle, and the destacker or HR10-250 cannot?

Not sure how I would proceed. FYI, also, I checked both the A and B outputs of the destacker.......


----------



## DCIFRTHS

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Your dual destacker has two outputs, one for each tuner; I was just wondering if you get the same problem when you have the outputs wired to opposite tuners from where you tried originally. *


Doug. Your knowledge of sat systems seems endless. Do you work in the business?


----------



## dswallow

What diplexer brand/part are you using? Have all your tests had the diplexer between the wall and the destacker? Does your Sony receiver work with the destacker between the wall and the Sony satellite input? Just want to make sure the destacker you have is passing the high frequencies.

Your Sony A55/B55 works. If the destacker worked, the Sony would work attached to the destacker output. I'm wondering if you need to rerun through the satellite dish setup though, since it'd have last been configured to see a stacked signal. The manual isn't clear (they mention a "signal seeker pop up" but don't say what that's about, however since it's only popping up when a round antenna is selected, I'd bet this is the step), but I'd guess it needs to decide how to access the satellite signal.

If you're using the cables enclosed with the destacker to connect between it and the receiver, maybe trying a different cable is worth a go. But I'd be hard pressed to think both are bad or that a bad cable could prevent the even transponders from getting selected. But you've come this far trying things...


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by DCIFRTHS _
> *Doug. Your knowledge of sat systems seems endless. Do you work in the business? *


 No, I don't work in the business, however I've always had a high interest in satellite systems, dating all the way back to my first C/Ku-band "big dish" system, so I've had a lot of experience, and love gadgets so am always interested in such things; and if you're interested in something, you suck the knowledge up everywhere it comes.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Doug: Your expertise has allowed me to continue this much further than I would have alone. Equipment:
I am using an ASKA 40-2150 MHz diplexer which has both a SAT and an ANT output.

The dual destacker I tried to use (from 9th Tee) was a D575D. As I mentioned, while my B-50 worked either connected directly to the wall or from the SAT output of the diplexer, it did not work when connected to the destacker.

I tired resetting the HR10-250 after connecting only the output of the diplexer to the HR10, but still only getting the odd transponders. I also did the same reset when directly connecting the HR10 to the wall. Same issue.

To summarize: It seems like certain high frequencies are not passing through the destacker, as the B-50 won't work with it.

Further, it seems the HR-10 can't pick up certain frequencies, as it will not work with the same feed that the B-50 does work on.

Any thoughts? Could this still be a DC issue, or is this an issue whereby I need some specialized destacker?

Thanks again.


----------



## dswallow

Did you rerun the satellite dish setup on the B50 when the unit was hooked up to the destacker? I think it needs to detect that the signal isn't stacked; right now, your B50 is configured for a stacked signal, so it won't work right with a regular unstacked signal.

Here's another way you might be able to ensure it's configured for a regular unstacked signal:

(got this online, and the info was sketchy, so I might be missing something) go into the hidden menu (press down arrow and menu -- I guess on the front panel -- maybe hold them down for up to 15-20 seconds); there's a setting on the antenna menu that'll be "wide". Change that to whatever the other setting is (maybe "narrow"). This should change the receiver to work with a non-stacked signal. Verify it by hooking it up directly to the wall and you should not get the even transponders. Then hook it up to the destacker and see if the receiver can get all transponders.

I've never heard of a customized/properietary stacking setup so I'm still of the mindset that the issue here is the destacker you've got isn't working. The D575d is definately doing the same thing the built-in destacking of the Sony receivers. I see lots of people referencing them online, so I'm confident that in general the D575d works if a B50 works on the stacked signal. So I just want to find out if we can get the B50 to work with the destacker. If we can, then the HR10-250 you have has a problem. If we can't, then I think the destacker you have isn't working.

If all else fails, I suppose it's worth a look at what stacking equipment is in use. If you have access to wherever it's installed, can you get the manufacturer/model #'s on that equipment?


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Doug: I will try to access the service menu tonight on the B-50 so that we can determine whether the destacker or the HR10-250 is at issue. quick question as I am away from the unit at the moment, does the hr10-250 have a service menu that may be helpful in resolving this issue?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *does the hr10-250 have a secret menu? *


 Pressing INFO & RIGHT on the front panel brings up the system diagnostics menu.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

Doug:
Went to the B50 diagnostics menu, set it to the non wideband setting, and voila, only the odd transponders. Hooked up the destacker, and it helped none. So I am assuming that the destacker must be the issue here? Do you agree?

Too bad the HR10 does not have an internal destacker. I am assuming that I either have a bad destacker or that this destacker is inappropriate because it is not passing wideband? Any thoughts?

This experience has been a real learning experience thanks to you. Thank you.

As an aside, do you know (can you explain) why diplexers extend to 2150 MHz, but the destackers tend to cut off at 2025 MHz? Why the extra headroom in the diplexer?


----------



## dswallow

I'd say your destacker is bad. I do believe if the destacker were working, it'd function properly on your system. I'd suggest getting it replaced. It *might* be worth calling the manufacturer's tech support... it's a stretch, but maybe you need to place a DC block between the wall and the destacker.

I doubt there's much rhyme or reason to the extra range of the diplexer; probably just a factor of the choice of components inside, or playing it safe to ensure there's no premature cutoff/degradation of the signal that needs to be passed. I suppose there might be cases where there's a little wider range of signal from some LNB's used on other satellite bands, too.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

I will keep you informed. It sounds like the first order of businesses is to get the replacement destacker. I will follow up with tech support to see if a DC blocker might help.

Why, btw, would DC present a problem to the external destacker, but not create a problem with the Sony B-50? Logic would dictate, per what I am learning from you that if no dc blocker is required for the B-50, it would not be needed for the destacker, no?

Thanks for the troubleshooting.


----------



## Budget_HT

I have faint memories of destacker posts where the two outputs of the destacker (don't recall which type or brand) had to be fed into a multiswitch to make the even and odd transponders available to each output tap of the multiswitch. 

IIRC, each destacker output is EITHER even or odd transponders, not both. The Sony receivers were built to handle this internally. Other receivers needed the help of a multiswitch to make all transponders available.

I could be WAY off here, but perhaps you need a 2xN multiswitch between your destacker and any receiver except the Sony that was made to work directly with the stacked signals.

You may want to do a search here on the TiVo forum for Feldon or feldoncentral, since I believe he is using a stacker/destacker arrangement (or used to). He published some diagrams showing how to connect everything together successfully.

Sorry if my memories are weak here, but I read through the posts because they were interesting, but I had no personal need for stacking/destacking, so I did not commit things to memory like I might have if I had actually used the equipment myself.

Good luck!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *Why, btw, would DC present a problem to the external destacker, but not create a problem with the Sony B-50? Logic would dictate, per what I am learning from you that if no dc blocker is required for the B-50, it would not be needed for the destacker, no?
> 
> Thanks for the troubleshooting. *


 The receiver could have a DC block built in that's active in wideband mode. I did say it was a stretch.  The HR10-250 does suffer problems when the antenna connection has DC voltage present, and a DC block is required there (the Terk diplexer being the only diplexer I've ever seen that doesn't have a DC block built in).

Anyway I'd doubt DC voltage could be an issue on the satellite inputs, since the configuration of the typical stacked setup would likely effectively isolate DC anyway, via the splitters used to distribute the stacked signal.


----------



## mrmrlawrence

I would assume that what is output from a destacker is dependent on the destacker itself. For example, the Sonora dual destacker I am using should be outputting even and odd transponders?

What I can't reconcile with the post with Budget HT is why the Sony failed to work with the destacker in standard mode.

Actually, I think I am lost really. Not sure what a multiswitch gets you....


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by mrmrlawrence _
> *I would assume that what is output from a destacker is dependent on the destacker itself. For example, the Sonora dual destacker I am using should be outputting even and odd transponders?
> 
> What I can't reconcile with the post with Budget HT is why the Sony failed to work with the destacker in standard mode.
> 
> Actually, I think I am lost really. Not sure what a multiswitch gets you.... *


There are destackers that simply separate the original two signals back to their original frequencies. These would then be fed into a multiswitch.

Your Sonora D575d essentially has a built-in 3x2 multiswitch and the outputs to each receiver will send out either of the two source satellite signals based on the voltage the receiver sends. If it worked right. 

I think the safe bet is your D575d destacker is broken.


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## Budget_HT

Doug:

Based on your clarification of the internal multiswitch in the Sonora D575d, I now understand your description and opinions and agree with your assessment of the problem.

Thanks for clearing it up for me. I knew there had to be a multiswitch function, I just never realized that it was provided internally in the D575d.


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## mrmrlawrence

Gents:

With your help, I was able to narrow the problem to the destacker. After a couple e-mail exchanges with Mark McCorkle at 9th tee, he had me check the DC voltage of the incoming signal. He concluded it was very low, and may not be passing signal appropriately. He also stated that in his experience, he has never had a problem with a Sonora dual destacker.

Sure enough, I called a service technician out, and while he had no idea what was wrong, I suggested we put a line amp in, and voila, both transponder sides and the Tivo works as you would expect.

Of course the technician did not realize that he could not put the line amp before the destacker because he effectively cut off my terrestrial antennae, but I am off to home depot to pick up a second line amp and to rectify the situation.

My sincere thanks.


----------



## lrreynolds

Great Faq. Glad you mentioned that you can toggle video formats using the up arrow since I hadn't figured that out and kept having to resort to pushing the button on the front panel to toggle the outputs. It might be worth mentioning that this will ONLY work if you set the up arrow video formats under the video settings since the default state is no toggling.


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## jprall

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Some time ago when that picture was first posted and I exclaimed how bad it is if there were no codes for it, someone chimed in saying there was a control on the remote to toggle through them. No word on if there's discrete codes to select a specific format (which I would really seriously hope they provide). *


You can indeed use the remote to cycle through 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080. The button you use is the up arrow on the remote.

In a settings menu buried deep in there is where you can turn on and off choices. So if you only want to flip between 720p and 1080i you can do that by then clicking up twice on the remote thus skipping the 480 modes.


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## RC3105

Q: can I install tivoweb / caller id / whatever on my HR10-250?


old answer:

yes, but you have to have the prom chip replaced first and that voids your warrenty


new answer:

sure, just do a google search for deal, database, exploit and bounty for details of the software to use


----------



## Ramy

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Most will; those that want to let another device do stretching on 4:3 material would more than likely be the ones needing to switch between format.
> 
> The same would apply to those that want another device to handle the output format conversions for 16:9 material, though I'd expect there'd be less benefit for most people over just letting the HD DVR do it.
> 
> As an example, my Fujitsu P50 plasma display can do non-linear stretching on 480i and 480p signals only; so unless I want to watch all 4:3 material with sidebars or linearly stretched (and I don't), I'll be switching formats depending on the source material that was recorded. *


I have just the opposite problem. I have a 4:3 television and all HD material on my HD Tivo is stretched up and down. I don't have an option to put bars at the top and bottom while viewing 1080i. I do have the option when viewing 480i or 480p which sees stupid to me why would you want to do that? I am getting my box replaced because I keep losing the satellite one input on the box, so maybe it was a problem with the box after all. If someone else had this problem let me know, thanks.


----------



## jlas75

HDMI video is NOT working on my DirecTV HR10-250 DirecTV with TiVo...Sysytem information says it's "not connected"...

Component video works. Is anyone else experiencing this problem with HDMI? Any suggestions on how to fix this? I have the Pioneer Elite PRO 530 HDI


----------



## feldon23

There's like a six page HDMI topic right here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=183203


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## neildallas

The same thing happened to me a month or so ago. I shipped the unit back AND kept the receipt. After I sat around for 20 minutes waiting to a human being, they agreed with me and did credit my account correctly.

Another example of incompetence or ....


----------



## bdraw

> _Originally posted by RC3105 _
> *sure, just do a google search for deal, database, exploit and bounty for details of the software to use *


Or just try yahoo groups, for friendly discussions.


----------



## duffboy

I have basic cable tv service of which I can get their local HD channels unscrambled. My HDTV has a built in tuner and picks them up. The HDTivo can't find them via the antenna in. Is there any way to force the tivo to tune them?

It's great that I can see them without an antenna but would be even better if I can record them!

So far HDMI is working...


----------



## maharg18

> _Originally posted by duffboy _
> *I have basic cable tv service of which I can get their local HD channels unscrambled. My HDTV has a built in tuner and picks them up. The HDTivo can't find them via the antenna in. Is there any way to force the tivo to tune them?
> 
> It's great that I can see them without an antenna but would be even better if I can record them!
> 
> So far HDMI is working... *


HDTivo receives ATSC over-the-air signals.. Cable HD signals are QAM, which the Tivo cannot receive.


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## duffboy

> HDTivo receives ATSC over-the-air signals.. Cable HD signals are QAM, which the Tivo cannot receive.


Thanks. I knew the answer was probably no but thought I would ask anyway. Over the air I go...


----------



## hookbill

I have a question about the channels that broadcast in 720p. I believe I saw someplace in here that ESPN HD and FOX are the only two. Is this still the current status or has that changed? The reason I ask is I have never seen anything in 720p, I can set my machine up for it but I only use 1020i. It seems to work fine on ESPN HD. Am I missing something here? I'm a bit confused, I do understand the two different types of broadcast but how can I know what stations are broadcasting in what format?


----------



## Tom in OH

Hi hookbill,

The HDTivo will upconvert to or passthru a 1080i signal (and 720p, 480p/i). There is no 'native mode' which switches output format based on input format. This would be a nice feature for some displays.

You're right about ESPN HD & Fox. They're the only 720p stations that I know of. You could set the HDTivo to output 720P and then those 2 stations would passthru 720P giving you a chance to see how 720P looks on your display. All other stations will up or downconvert to 720P. You probably knew all this.

AFAIK, there's no way to know what format the HDTivo's receiving.


----------



## hookbill

Thanks Tom, that answered my question. You assumed and rightfully so as we were in the TiVo forum I was talking about HD TiVo receiver. In fact I have cable and their HD/DVR. But the same rules apply. Actually since everything else comes in 1080i the only one I need to switch formats for would be ESPN since I don't get FOX anyway. Well, not in HD.

I find that watching all regular broadcast works fine in 420i. So I'll just use the three settings and keep it simple.


----------



## Flee

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *Hi hookbill,
> 
> The HDTivo will upconvert to or passthru a 1080i signal (and 720p, 480p/i). There is no 'native mode' which switches output format based on input format. This would be a nice feature for some displays.
> 
> You're right about ESPN HD & Fox. They're the only 720p stations that I know of. You could set the HDTivo to output 720P and then those 2 stations would passthru 720P giving you a chance to see how 720P looks on your display. All other stations will up or downconvert to 720P. You probably knew all this.
> 
> AFAIK, there's no way to know what format the HDTivo's receiving. *


Is there any difference in the quality of the picture if your HD Tivo is set at 1080i and you let it upconvert ESPN HD from 720p to 1080i? In other words, do I have to manually change the HD Tivo's output to 720p when viewing ESPN HD for the best possible picture?


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by Flee _
> *Is there any difference in the quality of the picture if your HD Tivo is set at 1080i and you let it upconvert ESPN HD from 720p to 1080i? In other words, do I have to manually change the HD Tivo's output to 720p when viewing ESPN HD for the best possible picture? *


If your tv will accept and display 720P then the picture quality might be better if u manually switched to 720P output on the HDTivo for ESPN HD & Fox. Some tvs that accept 720P will convert 720P to 1080i internally so for those it probably wouldn't matter(my Sony rptv does this). It's easy to set the HDTivo remote to switch formats. Try both formats on ESPN HD & Fox(ota) and let us know which looks better.


----------



## Budget_HT

ABC was the first network to go 720p. But, I have heard that some of their local affiliates are actually broadcasting in 1080i (converting ABC 720p network feeds to 1080i for local broadcast).

Here in Seattle, the local affiliate KOMO-DT does broadcast in 720p on the main digital channel.

ESPN-HD is a newbie compared to their cousin ABC. FOX is getting ready for 720p and true HD programming, but they are not there yet. Our local Fox affiliate is currently broadcasting in 1080i. I don't know what their plans might be to switch to 720p broadcasting.


----------



## Tom in OH

> _Originally posted by Budget_HT _
> *
> 
> ESPN-HD is a newbie compared to their cousin ABC. *


oh yes, forgot about ABC, thx Budget_HT. I'm looking forward to "Alias" in HD this fall on ABC ota.


----------



## hookbill

> _Originally posted by Budget_HT _
> *ABC was the first network to go 720p. But, I have heard that some of their local affiliates are actually broadcasting in 1080i (converting ABC 720p network feeds to 1080i for local broadcast).
> 
> Here in Seattle, the local affiliate KOMO-DT does broadcast in 720p on the main digital channel.
> 
> ESPN-HD is a newbie compared to their cousin ABC. FOX is getting ready for 720p and true HD programming, but they are not there yet. Our local Fox affiliate is currently broadcasting in 1080i. I don't know what their plans might be to switch to 720p broadcasting. *


Huh? I thought we just discussed that and it was decided that FOX and ESPN only broadcast on 720p. Now your saying ABC does too? And local stations may convert?

moan.....feel head starting to spin


----------



## Tom in OH

hookbill,
are u using an ota antenna to pickup Cleveland digital stations?


----------



## hookbill

No, I'm just receiving off of Adelphia Cable. I only get ABC and NBC for local hd.


----------



## Tom in OH

Just called Adelphia and 5 transfers later, the rep confirmed Adelphia passes thru the ABC 720P signal unchanged. It depends on the display type but I'd say this is a good thing. A progressive signal is usually a higher quality signal especially if it's not converted.


----------



## hookbill

Interesting. You are indeed a patient man, I hate calling adelphia for just about anything. Thanks for the info.


----------



## hookbill

I was curious how my TV handled 720p if I have my cable box at 1050i. The Sony representative I got on the phone told me NO ONE broadcast in 720p. I told him I had heard different, that I knew for a fact that FOX and ESPN broadcast in 720p. He said he hadn't heard that, but it didn't make a difference because you wouldn't see any difference in the picture.

I have to admit, no matter what format I watch either ESPN, FOX, or ABC they all appear exactly the same. I notice no difference if I watch it in 1080i or 720p.


----------



## lrreynolds

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Please let me know if there are any mistakes/oversights in this FAQ.
> *


Great FAQ. I would suggest adding a section with the currently/planned HD channels that are offered from DTV as opposed to OTA channels that may be available in some markets if you have an antenna. I started a thread yesterday because I had heard that NBC and FOX were coming online soon and was able to compile the following list that may be useful to others.

70 HBOH duplicated on 509
71 SHOH duplicated on 543
73 ESPH
74 BRVH
76 DSHD
78 HDNM
79 HDN
80 CBSE
81 CBSW
82 NBCE Scheduled 9/16/04
83 NBCW Scheduled 9/16/04
86 ABCE Not planned
87 ABCW Not planned
88 FOX Scheduled ??????
89 FOXW Scheduled ??????
91-97 NFL Ticket
99 PPVH


----------



## caunguyen

It depends on your TV. Basically, the TV will do the 1/1 map to its native resolution. If your TV native resolution is 720p, 720p source will look better than 1080i source since there is no conversion needed. How much better is very subjective. I notice that if the screen is big (>60), you can see the difference. For smaller set, it's hard to tell. Another difference is the amount of overscan. If source and display resolution matches, there is virtually no overscan. Otherwise, you can lose a small part of your picture due to overscan. Does that matter much? probably not for majority of people.

CN


> _Originally posted by hookbill _
> *I was curious how my TV handled 720p if I have my cable box at 1050i. The Sony representative I got on the phone told me NO ONE broadcast in 720p. I told him I had heard different, that I knew for a fact that FOX and ESPN broadcast in 720p. He said he hadn't heard that, but it didn't make a difference because you wouldn't see any difference in the picture.
> 
> I have to admit, no matter what format I watch either ESPN, FOX, or ABC they all appear exactly the same. I notice no difference if I watch it in 1080i or 720p. *


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by lrreynolds _
> *Great FAQ. I would suggest adding a section with the currently/planned HD channels that are offered from DTV*


I would suggest visiting the AVS Forum for this information:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34


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## llogan

I think the FAQ needs to be updated. Currently it shows NHL content in HD being available on HDNet and ESPN. That should probably be changed to "No content to be broadcast until the players get their respective heads out of their butts"


----------



## lrreynolds

> _Originally posted by Todd76 _
> *I would suggest visiting the AVS Forum for this information:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34 *


I did and it is not very clear what exactly D* is offering in HD vs. what can be recieved in HD over the air. For those of us who cannot recieve OTA braodcasts or who do not have or want antenna it would be nice to have a concise and up to date list of what can rbe recieved from D*. Especially since channels like Fox are not available from D* but are available in some markets OTA and D* doesn't always give you all the channels to which you are entitled unless you specifically request them and are eligible. CBSE/W and NBCE/W are two that I had to request and only did so because I realized HD programming was available vs my local channels which are in Denver.

BTW the list that AVS does have is inaccurate.


----------



## lrreynolds

> _Originally posted by lrreynolds _
> 70 HBOH duplicated on 509
> 71 SHOH duplicated on 543
> 73 ESPH
> 74 BRVH
> 76 DSHD
> 78 HDNM
> 79 HDN
> 80 CBSE
> 81 CBSW
> 82 NBCE Scheduled 9/16/04
> 83 NBCW Scheduled 9/16/04
> 86 ABCE Not planned
> 87 ABCW Not planned
> 88 FOX Scheduled ??????
> 89 FOXW Scheduled ??????
> 91-97 NFL Ticket
> 99 PPVH [/B]


82 NBCE
83 NBCW

Are now available !


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by lrreynolds _
> *For those of us who cannot recieve OTA braodcasts or who do not have or want antenna it would be nice to have a concise and up to date list of what can rbe recieved from D*.*


Try pressing the Guide button. All of DirecTV's HD channels are conveniently located in the 70-99 range.


----------



## botcher

How can we enter the . or - when tuning OTA HD channels - ie: I want to tune 6-1. Which key do I use between the 6 and 1 before hitting enter to tune the channel (subchannel)?

Right now I have to select the main ch #, then step up to the sub-channel.
What a PITA!

Eric


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by botcher _
> *How can we enter the . or - when tuning OTA HD channels - ie: I want to tune 6-1. Which key do I use between the 6 and 1 before hitting enter to tune the channel (subchannel)?
> 
> Right now I have to select the main ch #, then step up to the sub-channel.
> What a PITA! *


You enter a "-" by pressing the button that has a "-" printed above it.

I know, sounds simple, right? 

It's a dual purpose button; when you're not entering a channel number, this button is the ADVANCE -->| button (30 second skip when you enable that, too).

But pretty clearly printed on the remote, directly above it -- a "-".

BTW, you'll also find this information on Page 73 of the manual under the heading "Watching Live TV", subheading "Changing Channels".


----------



## jsimtx

I appreciate your connection diagrams. I have four TVs, three TiVos, HDTV sattelite and off air antena for local HDTV. I think I need a 5X8 multiswitch and several diplexers to connect it all so that sattelite and OTA is available in each room. Could you add such a diagram for this? Thanks, jsimtx


----------



## botcher

Thanks Doug!


----------



## HDLouco

The recent SW upgrade cancelled the 30-second skip function, and I can't seem to remember the button sequence to reprogram it. Can anybody help? Thanks!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by HDLouco _
> *The recent SW upgrade cancelled the 30-second skip function, and I can't seem to remember the button sequence to reprogram it. Can anybody help? Thanks! *


Select Play Select 3 0 Select

Best done while playing back a recorded program.


----------



## HDLouco

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Select Play Select 3 0 Select
> 
> Best done while playing back a recorded program. *


Thanks, Doug! This time I wrote it on my manual so I won't have to bother nice guys like you.

Mauro


----------



## hdtvluvr

I've read most of this thread and I'm a little confused.

I realize there are 4 tuners (2 sat and 2 OTA). I've read that you can record 2 channels simultaneously. However, can you record 2 and watch a 3rd?

In other words, if I'm recording 2 things off the sat, can I watch an OTA program? Or record 2 OTA and watch a sat channel? 

If the answer is yes to the above, what about buffering the show being watched?

Thanks


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by hdtvluvr _
> *I've read most of this thread and I'm a little confused.
> 
> I realize there are 4 tuners (2 sat and 2 OTA). I've read that you can record 2 channels simultaneously. However, can you record 2 and watch a 3rd?
> 
> In other words, if I'm recording 2 things off the sat, can I watch an OTA program? Or record 2 OTA and watch a sat channel?
> 
> If the answer is yes to the above, what about buffering the show being watched? *


Only 2 things can be recorded at a time. Watching live technically is watching a recorded stream, as it's recorded. So no, you cannot watch a 3rd channel live if two others are already recording, though you can watch something already recorded while 2 are recording.


----------



## hdtvluvr

dswallow,

Thanks for the information. I was afraid that was the case.

How does everyone else handle these issues so that they can watch a 3rd channel?

At first, I thought about just adding the HD Tivo to my rack and keeping the E86 for live TV. However, my TV only has 1 1080i input so I can not attach the E86 and the HD Tivo and get the best image.

Second, my 5.1 reciever only has 1 optical input (currently used by my E86 since it only has an optical out). According to the specs on the HD Tivo, it only has an optical output. Therefore, I can't have the E86 and HD Tivo connected at the same time.

How does everyone else do this?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by hdtvluvr _
> *dswallow,
> 
> Thanks for the information. I was afraid that was the case.
> 
> How does everyone else handle these issues so that they can watch a 3rd channel?
> 
> At first, I thought about just adding the HD Tivo to my rack and keeping the E86 for live TV. However, my TV only has 1 1080i input so I can not attach the E86 and the HD Tivo and get the best image.
> 
> Second, my 5.1 reciever only has 1 optical input (currently used by my E86 since it only has an optical out). According to the specs on the HD Tivo, it only has an optical output. Therefore, I can't have the E86 and HD Tivo connected at the same time.
> 
> How does everyone else do this? *


There are component and DVI switchers that also switch a digital audio signal that can be used which respond to IR controls, so a universal remote can take care of changing things around. Zektor makes several: http://www.valueelectronics.com/accessories.htm#Zektor DVS5.1

Or you can get a new receiver with more inputs.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Thanks,
I'll look into my options.


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by hdtvluvr _
> *How does everyone else handle these issues so that they can watch a 3rd channel?
> *


I kept the SD TiVo.


----------



## bschrecker

I apologize ahead of time if this topic has been answered or if this is an uninformed post.

I have a Sony TiVo DVR hooked to comcast digital cable. I recently bought a new high def. TV, they installed a high def. cable box. But, obviously, my TiVo is for standard viewing. 

So I would like to watch my TiVo programs in High Def.

With digital cable (not satellite) which HDTV TiVo DVR is compatible?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by bschrecker _
> *With digital cable (not satellite) which HDTV TiVo DVR is compatible? *


 None; there's only a HD DVR w/TiVo for DirecTV.


----------



## bschrecker

thank you Doug

man thats bad news

Is that something thats on the horizon or mentioned by anyone else?

I appreciate your help.


----------



## maharg18

> _Originally posted by bschrecker _
> *
> Is that something thats on the horizon or mentioned by anyone else?
> 
> *


Only rumors at this point.. Hopefully something will be announced at CES in January.


----------



## bschrecker

great thank you Maharg love the site


----------



## DevoDave

Thanks for the informative FAQ. Before I plunk down the big cash for HD DVR, I wonder about two issues:

1) Integrated OTA on the menu and Tivo functionality. Currently, my OTA HD signal is great from a tiny Silver Sensor indoor, but the programming guide is sparse. Is recording OTA HD on the HD Tivo straightforward? How do the programming guides integrate for DirecTV and OTA?
2) Picture quality. Early HD recievers had the blocky artifiacts. How is the HD DVR doing for PQ?

Thanks


----------



## Budget_HT

Is your current HD program guide the PSIP data transmitted OTA by the local stations? PSIP guide data tends to vary greatly between stations. Some offer none at all, others provide good coverage.

The HD TiVo does NOT use PSIP program guide data. Instead, it uses the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide (APG) which combines their satellite channels and your local OTA channels (based on your zipcode) into a single guide that offers 14 day look ahead. In other words, the DirecTV HDTV OTA guide is much better than PSIP offered OTA.

So, with the HD TiVo DVR, the OTA signals come from your local antenna (SS in your case, at least for now), while the OTA program guide info is included in the APG sent via satellite.

The single guide, IMHO, does an excellent job of integrating DirecTV channels and digital OTA channels (DTV and HDTV) that can all be received using the HD TiVo.

Regarding HD TiVO HD picture quality, that seems to vary by what combinations of equipment are being used. In my case, I am totally satisfied with the HD TiVo PQ. But, I am lucky to live in an area where OTA HD reception is very good.

If you already have an SD DirecTV DVR with TiVo, you will find that the HD TiVo behaves nearly identically. The differences relate to the addition of HDTV and OTA digital, and some added menus and controls needed for those additions.

Bottom line for me: as DirecTiVo users for nearly three years, the HD TiVo was high on my wish list, and I have beeen completely satisfied. I no longer have to watch HDTV in real time, I have gone back to TiVo-based time shifting, now including HDTV programs.

Sounds to me like you could be equally satisfied. Good luck!


----------



## Bagger9

Hi all,

I have been reading & reading & now I have a stupid question to which I think I already have the answer but I am looking for confirmation here:

If I am getting Structured Wiring put in my new home build (2 RG6 Quad shield & 2 Cat5 to each room) & I want to go with the Directv HD Tivo in 1 room, will the 2 coaxs be sufficient or do I need 3? 

Also, with the same Structured Wiring setup, if I have a DirecTv Tivo (non-HD) in 1 room & I want to run that same signal to another room, can this be done through the Structured Wiring plates? In the room with the Tivo, wouldn't I have to use the 2 coaxs for the Tivo & if so then where will I run the signal that I split from the TV in that room back out to the other room? Or, is it possible to use 1 coax on the wall plate & split that to the Tivo receiver fo rhte 2 coax inputs, freeing the other coax on the wall plate up as a return to the other room? Am I making sense? 

I am about 1-2- weeks away from going over all of this with my installer & electrician & I need to know what I am talking about. 

Basically, what I want in the house is this:

- Home Theater Room with a HD Tivo

- Family Room with a Tivo (future expandable to HD Tivo

- Kitchen with the feed from the Family Room (but future expandable for its own Tivo, even HD)

- Office with a DSS receiver

- 4 Bedrooms all capable of running a Tivo, possibly HD Tivos in the future & all capable of running feeds to other bedrooms

- Master Bedroom with the feed from the Master Bedroom (future expandable fo rits own receiver)

- Garage, Basement & Rear Deck all capable of running their own receiver, possibly Tivo, & capable of running feeds from one to the other.

Does it sound like tructure Wiring will allow me to do everythign I want or will I need some additional runs of coax? I have read so much & talked to so many people but I cannot get a truly concise, decisive answer that makes me feel confident. After reading here I feel like this might be the place to steer me in the right direction & give me confidence! Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dswallow

Structured wiring provides flexibility, but you have to account for the multiple uses you expect to have to decide how many runs you want from/to each location. I'd suggest you use a separate coax run for each signal you need to send, giving you the flexibility later to double things up where possible, rather than relying on doubling things up now.

For instance, you can share a coax line for a satellite signal with an antenna, cable or RF modulated signal, so you could manage to get things around in that manner, but since you can run separate lines for each now, that makes it all simpler to follow. Later if you needed to do other things, you could combine two cables into one where the signals are compatible and free up a line for that other use.

From your description of what you desire, though, I think you need to be looking at more professional methods of whole house video/audio distribution. The wiring alone is really only part of it, and from what I can see, you're going to have a nightmare figuring out how to control everything from various remote locations. Such whole house audio/video systems often can use things like CAT5 wiring or even optical fiber to distribute things, so your wiring requirements could be very different.

But if you're just trying to get the wiring in place for the ultimate in flexibility, I'd run as much wire as you can afford.  Take your major viewing locations and run extra wiring. I'd consider 2 coax and 2 CAT-5 to be a good starting point for remote locations, but for the prime ones, you'll probably want more. Consider additional satellite services you might want to subscribe to, or even the concept of using cable TV in addition to DirecTV -- who knows what the future may bring.

And don't forget the wiring from your satellite dish location(s) to your central wiring point -- DirecTV has big plans for adding more satellites to provide HD content; this'll mean more wires to your multiswitch(es), so run them now while it's easier. Then run 4 or 5 more.


----------



## Bagger9

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *Structured wiring provides flexibility, but you have to account for the multiple uses you expect to have to decide how many runs you want from/to each location. I'd suggest you use a separate coax run for each signal you need to send, giving you the flexibility later to double things up where possible, rather than relying on doubling things up now.
> 
> For instance, you can share a coax line for a satellite signal with an antenna, cable or RF modulated signal, so you could manage to get things around in that manner, but since you can run separate lines for each now, that makes it all simpler to follow. Later if you needed to do other things, you could combine two cables into one where the signals are compatible and free up a line for that other use.
> 
> From your description of what you desire, though, I think you need to be looking at more professional methods of whole house video/audio distribution. The wiring alone is really only part of it, and from what I can see, you're going to have a nightmare figuring out how to control everything from various remote locations. Such whole house audio/video systems often can use things like CAT5 wiring or even optical fiber to distribute things, so your wiring requirements could be very different.
> 
> But if you're just trying to get the wiring in place for the ultimate in flexibility, I'd run as much wire as you can afford.  Take your major viewing locations and run extra wiring. I'd consider 2 coax and 2 CAT-5 to be a good starting point for remote locations, but for the prime ones, you'll probably want more. Consider additional satellite services you might want to subscribe to, or even the concept of using cable TV in addition to DirecTV -- who knows what the future may bring.
> 
> And don't forget the wiring from your satellite dish location(s) to your central wiring point -- DirecTV has big plans for adding more satellites to provide HD content; this'll mean more wires to your multiswitch(es), so run them now while it's easier. Then run 4 or 5 more.  *


Thanks for the answer - I definately hear you about more runs from the roof - I am thinking 6 would be good - 4 for the Dish, 1 OTA & another for future use.

SO, in the rooms, what you are saying is that I should take my prime viewing areas (Home Theater, Family Room & Master Bedroom) & in addition to the 2 coaxs on the Structured Wiring setup run an additional coax as well?

My biggest confusion deals with the Directv HD Tivo - do I need 3 coaxs for this - 2 Tivo & 1 OTA - or does the OTA combine in 1 of the 2 for the Tivo?

I appreciate all your advice on this as I can see from reading that you are a guru!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by Bagger9 _
> *Thanks for the answer - I definately hear you about more runs from the roof - I am thinking 6 would be good - 4 for the Dish, 1 OTA & another for future use.
> 
> SO, in the rooms, what you are saying is that I should take my prime viewing areas (Home Theater, Family Room & Master Bedroom) & in addition to the 2 coaxs on the Structured Wiring setup run an additional coax as well?
> 
> My biggest confusion deals with the Directv HD Tivo - do I need 3 coaxs for this - 2 Tivo & 1 OTA - or does the OTA combine in 1 of the 2 for the Tivo?
> 
> I appreciate all your advice on this as I can see from reading that you are a guru! *


 The HR10-250 needs two separate coax lines; you can use a third for OTA or you can distribute OTA combined with the satellite coax lines (OTA uses 50-800MHz, the satellite side uses 950-1450MHz, hence why they can coexist). A 5x8 multiswitch combines an OTA or cable signal with all 8 satellite outputs, for instance, or you can use diplexers to add the OTA or cable signal to individual satellite lines.

I'd suggest 4 or 5 coax runs to your prime viewing areas, plus any additional runs you need if you're going to try to distribute video back from there to other places. I'd also suggest you think about OTA issues, like controlling an antenna rotator, requiring 3 or 4-conductor wiring, for instance. A phone line, a network connection, and maybe additional CAT-5 to send HD video back to other locations.

I don't think it's impractical to believe at some time you'd consider having 2 DVR's in your prime viewing locations; often enough we hear about people who have conflicts with just 2 tuners when attempting to record things, so that alone would mean 4 lines run just for satellite signals (and possibly OTA too). Then having some extra in addition to what you can conceive of using is always good to cover those things you cannot conceive of needing.

The cost of running extra cable now is minor compared to the cost and labor of adding it later. You'll live if wire goes unused, but if you need something you didn't plan for and it's not there...


----------



## TivoMo

Any update on these problems yet? I want to get one of these at my local Best Buy but maybe I should just wait.

Makes me wonder what the guys on ebay that sell 'upgraded' units are doing to fix the issue for their customers since they will not be warranteed.


----------



## IT_Dave

> _Originally posted by Bagger9 _
> *Hi all,
> 
> I have been reading & reading & now I have a stupid question to which I think I already have the answer but I am looking for confirmation here:
> 
> If I am getting Structured Wiring put in my new home build (2 RG6 Quad shield & 2 Cat5 to each room) & I want to go with the Directv HD Tivo in 1 room, will the 2 coaxs be sufficient or do I need 3?
> 
> Also, with the same Structured Wiring setup, if I have a DirecTv Tivo (non-HD) in 1 room & I want to run that same signal to another room, can this be done through the Structured Wiring plates? In the room with the Tivo, wouldn't I have to use the 2 coaxs for the Tivo & if so then where will I run the signal that I split from the TV in that room back out to the other room? Or, is it possible to use 1 coax on the wall plate & split that to the Tivo receiver fo rhte 2 coax inputs, freeing the other coax on the wall plate up as a return to the other room? Am I making sense?
> 
> I am about 1-2- weeks away from going over all of this with my installer & electrician & I need to know what I am talking about.
> 
> Basically, what I want in the house is this:
> 
> - Home Theater Room with a HD Tivo
> 
> - Family Room with a Tivo (future expandable to HD Tivo
> 
> - Kitchen with the feed from the Family Room (but future expandable for its own Tivo, even HD)
> 
> - Office with a DSS receiver
> 
> - 4 Bedrooms all capable of running a Tivo, possibly HD Tivos in the future & all capable of running feeds to other bedrooms
> 
> - Master Bedroom with the feed from the Master Bedroom (future expandable fo rits own receiver)
> 
> - Garage, Basement & Rear Deck all capable of running their own receiver, possibly Tivo, & capable of running feeds from one to the other.
> 
> Does it sound like tructure Wiring will allow me to do everythign I want or will I need some additional runs of coax? I have read so much & talked to so many people but I cannot get a truly concise, decisive answer that makes me feel confident. After reading here I feel like this might be the place to steer me in the right direction & give me confidence! Help!!!!!!!!!!!!! *


Sounds to me like you should get some good conduit installed which would provide adequate shielding and pulling of new cables into all rooms/locations. That sounds like the best bet!


----------



## mattnaz

I am new to this forum and just started looking into this unit. I figured I would wait for them to fix the bugs before I made the purchase. I have a couple of questions.

1. Should I purchase now or wait?

2.I will need to coaxs from the dish to run this receiver? I currently have one to the receiver I have now but I am guessing 2 are required to record sat and watch another channel on sat? 

3.With my current set up, I have 2 receivers so I can do Picture in Picture and send out a signal to other rooms. Would I have to give up this option if I don't want to run another line from the dish?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## feldon23

Why would anyone ever need more than 4 coax runs to a room? You can always put a 4xX multiswitch, right?


----------



## MCodanti

Unless your locals are on 72.5 right? Or you need an OTA antenna.. (I have 6 lines to me main equipment, 4) D*, 1) OTA, 1) Power for MS)

If you have a 4x16 MS would you get better signal from running 6 lines to your 3 DirecTiVo boxes than if you just ran 4 and put it through another 4x8 MS? (Can you cascade them without signal loss?)


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Why would anyone ever need more than 4 coax runs to a room? You can always put a 4xX multiswitch, right? *


A person needing 72.5° currently needs 5 coax runs if they also have HD receivers. And then there's 95° and eventually SpaceWay. Who knows where this will max out.


----------



## HDLouco

Have I missed some news? I thought Directv only had sats at 101, 110 and 119 WL spots! What is at 72.5? Thanks, Doug, for any answers!


----------



## maharg18

> _Originally posted by HDLouco _
> *Have I missed some news? I thought Directv only had sats at 101, 110 and 119 WL spots! What is at 72.5? Thanks, Doug, for any answers! *


72.5 has locals for about 2 dozen new local markets.

Directv5, which is the old sat from 119, is now located at 72.5.


----------



## HDLouco

> _Originally posted by maharg18 _
> *72.5 has locals for about 2 dozen new local markets.
> 
> Directv5, which is the old sat from 119, is now located at 72.5. *


I had not heard this! Thanks for answering. I guess I don't have to worry about 72.5 for the time being because I live in California and should be getting my local channels from either 110 or 119. It would be a nightmare trying to install another dish with the required multiswitch to handle it all.


----------



## feldon23

72.5 is, unless something has changed in my absence, a way to provide locals to folks living in BFE. It is, on a smaller scale, what Dish Network did (putting locals on other satellites which require more dishes).


----------



## madpoet

Out of the box, what do I need to do? Install is Saturday. I already know I need to change it to 1080i from the default. I'll check HDMI, but I'm really mostly using component. I also have to set the audio settings, is that correct? Should be digital output to my Denon 3805. Anything else I need to make sure I do?

THanks,
MP


----------



## IT_Dave

> _Originally posted by jsimtx _
> *I appreciate your connection diagrams. I have four TVs, three TiVos, HDTV sattelite and off air antena for local HDTV. I think I need a 5X8 multiswitch and several diplexers to connect it all so that sattelite and OTA is available in each room. Could you add such a diagram for this? Thanks, jsimtx *


Where do you find connection diagrams?

Thanks,

Dave


----------



## HDLouco

> _Originally posted by IT_Dave _
> *Where do you find connection diagrams?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave *


I don't think you need any connection diagrams to connect a 5X8 multiwsitch (MS) to your Tivos and receivers. The Phase-3 Directv dish has 4 outputs. You connect all 4 outputs to the 4 inputs of the 5X8 MS. Then you connect the TV antenna cable to the antenna input of the MS. My MS requires power, and that comes from a power supply via another coaxial cable connected to the power input of the MS. You now have 8 outputs which carry signals from all the Directv sats plus the OTA antenna signal. And you connect each one of the outputs to your Tivos and other Directv receivers throughout your house. Hope that will help you! Good luck to you.


----------



## IT_Dave

Sorry, I should have been more clear, there is more than one discussion going on in this thread. What I mean was, diagrams showing what is required to connect different types of receivers TIVO's etc from point A Satellite to Point Z. 

Thanks,

Dave


----------



## Joe Siegler

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Please let me know if there are any mistakes/oversights in this FAQ.
> 
> Also I know it needs more outside links to information and where to buy the components.
> 
> Feedback appreciated! *


Reply to the first post in this thread..

1) Radio Shack grille/bowtie-type (aka the Objet d'Art) - The link to that item is now broken.

2) The shows shown in HD on the various networks should probably be updated - I know Jake 2.0 on UPN hasn't been shown for awhile now (better part of a year, I think).


----------



## edrock200

ABC's Lost is also in HD.


----------



## edrock200

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *72.5 is, unless something has changed in my absence, a way to provide locals to folks living in BFE. It is, on a smaller scale, what Dish Network did (putting locals on other satellites which require more dishes). *


I thought 72.5 was to provide local HD's and new national HD's. Is this not the case?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *I thought 72.5 was to provide local HD's and new national HD's. Is this not the case? *


 Nope, 72.5° is just more SD locals using a Canadian-allocated slot that DirecTV provided a satellite for in exchange for using some of the bandwidth there.


----------



## edrock200

Whats the slot they announced for two sats for "upto 1000 HD channels?"


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *Whats the slot they announced for two sats for "upto 1000 HD channels?" *


They'll be using 99°/103° for SpaceWay and have plans for a new satellite at 101° with Ka-band capabilities too.


----------



## HDLouco

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *They'll be using 99°/103° for SpaceWay and have plans for a new satellite at 101° with Ka-band capabilities too. *


Hi Doug!
I have always appreciated your posts because you always have the the answers. Now, if you'll pardom my ignorance, what is the difference between Ka and Ku bands? Any links to where you got this info? Thanks.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by HDLouco _
> *Hi Doug!
> I have always appreciated your posts because you always have the the answers. Now, if you'll pardom my ignorance, what is the difference between Ka and Ku bands? Any links to where you got this info? Thanks. *


It's just a different (higher) range of frequencies for the transmission; the original theory was Ka-band would permit smaller dishes, but it's also more subject to rain fade issues, so using the same size dish as we have now should provide a little better reception.

If you just search for "ka-band" and some other dbs terms you should find some basic info around; I don't really know of a single overall discussion someplace I could direct you to.


----------



## HDLouco

> _Originally posted by dswallow _
> *It's just a different (higher) range of frequencies for the transmission; the original theory was Ka-band would permit smaller dishes, but it's also more subject to rain fade issues, so using the same size dish as we have now should provide a little better reception.
> 
> If you just search for "ka-band" and some other dbs terms you should find some basic info around; I don't really know of a single overall discussion someplace I could direct you to. *


Thank you very much, Doug! Will do as you suggested and search.


----------



## leesweet

> _Originally posted by edrock200 _
> *ABC's Lost is also in HD. *


My suggestion is that all show-specific content be deleted from the this FAQ and a link be entered to the AVS HD Programming Links Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346761

Is there a reason to duplicate research and content? I think this is the place for unique TiVo content but HD TV content that's at AVS? I don't see the point, IMO.

And for people that do want more up to the minute HD Programming news, here's one great thread by fredfa on ratings/cancelations/news:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440744


----------



## leesweet

Okay, gah, I just re-read this whole thread to be sure I wasn't missing anything...  Did we ever confirm that the RCA and optical audio can be active at the same time? It was mentioned at a possible solution to one issue at one point, but I can't find where anyone said that it actually worked. (Many devices with 'analog' and 'digital' audio only have one active at a time.)

The application is to run a DD connection to my amp with the optical, but also use the analog, since I use wireless headphones sometimes, and my amp won't output optical inputs out on the L/R outputs..  Thanks!


----------



## JayDog

I have optical running to an A/V receiver, and red/white analog running to the TV... I've never had a reason too, but I'm pretty sure both output from the HD-TiVo at the same time.

(Sometimes I don't turn on the A/V receiver, and just use the TV speakers... but not too often..  )


----------



## feldon23

> _Originally posted by leesweet _
> *My suggestion is that all show-specific content be deleted from the this FAQ and a link be entered to the AVS HD Programming Links Thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346761
> 
> Is there a reason to duplicate research and content? I think this is the place for unique TiVo content but HD TV content that's at AVS? I don't see the point, IMO.*


Maybe because TiVo users don't want to get buried in the very technical AVS Forum just to find out basic information about why they should buy an HDTiVo?


----------



## botcher

Both analog and optical work simultaneously. IIRC, the only issue is the ping-pong type sound effects when using the remote in the menus. These sounds only go out the analog RCA ports. I recall seeing my AV receiver switch to analog when no AC-3 stream is present (like when going into a menu after watching a recorded Dolby Digital show), then hearing the tones. Yet, if I maneuver quickly enough to get out of the menus before the AV receiver switches back to analog, I never hear the tones.

The tones have also served as a reminder that I left the TV volume up when I didn't want it! But, YES, you can hear the show's audio content out the analog at the same time as the digital output.

Eric


----------



## leesweet

Eric, thanks for the info. I've got it hooked up with both optical and analog, and it appears to be working fine. Good to know it's not either/or!


----------



## leesweet

> _Originally posted by feldon23 _
> *Maybe because TiVo users don't want to get buried in the very technical AVS Forum just to find out basic information about why they should buy an HDTiVo? *


Well, the point wasn't about 'technical' information but just linking to *one* thread that has the current show information, because that, as several people have stated is quite out of date at the top. Was just trying to save you from having to update that information all the time.


----------



## leesweet

> _Originally posted by JayDog _
> *I have optical running to an A/V receiver, and red/white analog running to the TV... I've never had a reason too, but I'm pretty sure both output from the HD-TiVo at the same time.
> 
> (Sometimes I don't turn on the A/V receiver, and just use the TV speakers... but not too often..  ) *


Hm, that's a better reason for both to work at the same time.. I hope that's why they made it that way.


----------



## Budget_HT

> _Originally posted by botcher _
> *Both analog and optical work simultaneously. IIRC, the only issue is the ping-pong type sound effects when using the remote in the menus. These sounds only go out the analog RCA ports. I recall seeing my AV receiver switch to analog when no AC-3 stream is present (like when going into a menu after watching a recorded Dolby Digital show), then hearing the tones. Yet, if I maneuver quickly enough to get out of the menus before the AV receiver switches back to analog, I never hear the tones.
> 
> The tones have also served as a reminder that I left the TV volume up when I didn't want it! But, YES, you can hear the show's audio content out the analog at the same time as the digital output.
> 
> Eric *


My understanding of when the "bong" tones can be heard is slightly different.

I only have the optical output of my HD TiVo connected to my A/V receiver.

When HD programs are or have last been playing, I do not hear any tones. When SD programs are or have last been playing, I always hear the tones (again, via the optical/digital output).

My understanding is that the HD TiVo (and my HDVR2 SD DirecTV with TiVo) can play the "bong" tones through the digital audio output, UNLESS the digital audio is Dolby Digital/AC-3. In that case, no tones are heard.

All ATSC OTA HD programs are Dolby Digital (even if they are only offering stereo content), so no tones. I believe the same is true for all DirecTV HD channels.

Nearly all DirecTV SD channels are NOT Dolby Digital/AC-3, so the tones are heard.

Finally, a series 1 DirecTiVo (like my Sony SAT-T60) cannot send any tones over the optical/digital output, ever.

I have not tested whether tones can be heard over the analog audio outputs when the source program is Dolby Digital/AC-3.


----------



## leesweet

I believe the menu said that 'no tones will be heard when DD is being recorded' or close to that, which is all the time you are watching DD shows, so that agrees with Dave's analysis.

I assume tones are going over the analog, as others reported, since I've got both wired, and I hear tones all the time on OTA, etc.


----------



## odrybenj

Hi 
thanks for this well documented page on Tivo and DirecTv. I also read your epic story about TiVO and SBC direcTV. I was wondering in the case of HD if you have met anyone with a similar case: triple LNB on the dish stacked together and going out of one plug in the wall. 

Is this possible first, and how would you deal with that? I live in a complex with MDU, and they charge a lot to activate HD, so I am looking for other options. If the signals from the 3 LNBs are stacked together, there might be a way to separate them.

Any ideas?
Thanks.


----------



## feldon23

All 3 satellites including HDTV programming can't be stacked on 1 wire. 4000 MHz is just too much for RG-6.

I heard from someone knowledgeable at SBC that they are starting to stack all 3 satellites using 2 wires and re-combining in the apartments.

You said they "charge a lot to activate HD"? They're probably charging you exactly what it costs to send the right signal to your apartment and give you the proper equipment for you to use it. Nobody said HD was cheap!


----------



## odrybenj

Yes, I know that HD is not cheap; it's just that I have the feeling they're trying to get as much money as they can out of it and way over the real cost. I just want to make sure that I am not being robbed (too much)....

Thanks anyway, I'll probably ask them to come.


----------



## Budget_HT

odrybenj:

Welcome to the forum.

We are interested in just how your setup will work. Please share your info if you go ahead with HD in your home.

For example, 2 cables or one? Any conversion/multiswitch boxes added (manufacturer and product ID), description of how things are interconnected, etc.


----------



## odrybenj

Sorry Budget,

I am living in a complex wired by MDU, so I am having the same kind of problems (stacker/destacker) feldon had a while ago. I only have one cable in my wall (stacked signal) so TiVO does not work yet (I have a Hughes DVR80). I have a sharp LCD HD TV plus the samsung SR360 HD receiver that is why I'm interested in knowing how HD signal is routed with MDU. I only get HD trhough a Silver Sensor antenna for now.

So I guess common configuration with common difficulties. An interesting thing is that my HD receiver works without destacker, so I guess it destacks the signal by itself.


----------



## odrybenj

feldon,

I have a question for you since you since you posted the FAQ about HD and tivo. You showed example of connectivity using the 3 LNB dish. How does it work with a Phase III dish? It seems that there is only one cable running out of the dish, so how does your scheme get updated with this kind of Dish? I suppose you don't use multiswitch anymore sionec you have all three satellite signals in one cable..

Thanks,


----------



## feldon23

Phase III dish IS a 3LNB dish. It has 4 outputs on it.

Not sure where you are seeing 1 cable?


----------



## odrybenj

I just wanted to understand why I only have one input on the HD receiver. I have a Samsung SR 360. I guess if there is one input, it can support the signals from the 3 LNBs, whether there are 4 cables getting out of the dish or signals are stacked together in one, which seems not to be an option...

An interesting thing also is that this receiver seems to have a auto-destacker functionality. For instance I don't need any destacker in a MDU complex, but that's something else. Adding a destacker seems to block odd transponders.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by odrybenj _
> *I just wanted to understand why I only have one input on the HD receiver. I have a Samsung SR 360. I guess if there is one input, it can support the signals from the 3 LNBs, whether there are 4 cables getting out of the dish or signals are stacked together in one, which seems not to be an option...
> 
> An interesting thing also is that this receiver seems to have a auto-destacker functionality. For instance I don't need any destacker in a MDU complex, but that's something else. Adding a destacker seems to block odd transponders. *


The receiver sends a voltage (13v DC or 17v DC) and a 22kHz tone (or no tone) to the multiswitch to tell it what signal to connect to the receiver; that allows one cable to be used per tuner no matter how many real LNB's are involved in receiving the satellite signal.

If the receiver supports destacking, to switch to non-stacked inputs, you'll need to adjust the configuration option (I think they refer to it as "WIDE" signal or something like that on Samsungs), or run through the automatic dish/LNB detection process again.


----------



## odrybenj

Ah ok! That makes sense of course. 
Thanks.


----------



## Joe Smith

> _Originally posted by leesweet _
> *My suggestion is that all show-specific content be deleted from the this FAQ and a link be entered to the AVS HD Programming Links Thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346761
> *


That URL is no longer valid; it's been archived to http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346761


----------



## Joe Smith

> _Originally posted by Joe Siegler _
> *Reply to the first post in this thread..
> 
> 1) Radio Shack grille/bowtie-type (aka the Objet d'Art) - The link to that item is now broken.
> *


Yeah, it moved from www to archive: http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=983


----------



## nuzzy

> To take full advantage of a DirecTV with TiVo or DirecTV HD TiVo receiver/recorder, you must have TWO wires from the dish/multiswitch connected to them. Ordinary DirecTV receivers each require ONE wire from the dish/multiswitch.


Hello,

I just read the first post and saw this. I have a Phase III dish, but only 1 coax running up to the TV. Should I have had two when the dish was installed? I only have this 1 wire hooked up to #1 Sat on my HR10-250. Will I need to get that second set up as well?


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by nuzzy _
> *Hello,
> 
> I just read the first post and saw this. I have a Phase III dish, but only 1 coax running up to the TV. Should I have had two when the dish was installed? I only have this 1 wire hooked up to #1 Sat on my HR10-250. Will I need to get that second set up as well? *


Yes, there should be two coax lines from the dish to your HR10-250, one for each tuner.


----------



## nuzzy

Thanks for the quick reply - it looks like it may be an easy fix for me as I have a Zinwell 4x8 Multi-Switch with available outputs. I think I just have to run a wire from the Multi-switch to the DVR.


----------



## WERAHQ

Might be a stupid question and it may have been answered but after page 30 or so my eyes got a bit blurry however I will apologize in advance....

I've got a Sony Vega with the component inputs but not the HDMI, is it worth getting the HDTivo or not? It's only about 5 years old and I believe that dining room furniture is next on "our" list of major household purchases so a new HDTV is out - that and I'm leaning towards a projector next. My T60 is old enough I'm pretty sure I can get approval along with it being my borthday soon, well acceptance maybe but it's enough.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by WERAHQ _
> *Might be a stupid question and it may have been answered but after page 30 or so my eyes got a bit blurry however I will apologize in advance....
> 
> I've got a Sony Vega with the component inputs but not the HDMI, is it worth getting the HDTivo or not? It's only about 5 years old and I believe that dining room furniture is next on "our" list of major household purchases so a new HDTV is out - that and I'm leaning towards a projector next. My T60 is old enough I'm pretty sure I can get approval along with it being my borthday soon, well acceptance maybe but it's enough. *


Give the model number so we can check out specs directly; but if the component input is supporting and displaying 720p or 1080i resolutions, then you most definitely will see something better than you get with SD. But if it's only supporting 480p or 480i, then it'll be far less an improvement -- maybe noticable, but not dramatic.


----------



## WERAHQ

Couldn't find that info in the book, I'll do a search as well but in the meantime it's a Sony Wega FD Trinitron KV-36FS12 

Thanks!


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by WERAHQ _
> *Couldn't find that info in the book, I'll do a search as well but in the meantime it's a Sony Wega FD Trinitron KV-36FS12 *


http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KV32FV16.pdf (it includes your model)

It supports 16:9 vertical scanline compression.

No mention of HD; just talk of "connecting a DVD player" to the component inputs, so most likely it only supports 480i, maybe 480p.


----------



## WERAHQ

That's what I figured - looks like I'll hold off on the HD Tivo for now - thanks for the help!


----------



## ludeboy12

so is there really no way to get tivo updates on this bad boy without a land line??

i use my cell as my main phone and id rather not have to spend an additional 20-30 a month for phone service i'll never use except of course to let the tivo update.....


----------



## jbauer

> _Originally posted by WERAHQ _
> *....I've got a Sony Vega with the component inputs but not the HDMI, is it worth getting the HDTivo or not? It's only about 5 years old and I believe that dining room furniture is next on "our" list of major household purchases so a new HDTV is out - that and I'm leaning towards a projector next. My T60 is old enough I'm pretty sure I can get approval along with it being my borthday soon, well acceptance maybe but it's enough. *


You didn't give your model number, but the one I had, the 36XBR250, was the model before the HD sets came out, and I bought that one less than 5 years ago (sorry, don't remember the date). So... your set was DEFINITELY not HD. I don't think there's any benefit to buying the HD TiVo with that set...

Sorry!

- Jon


----------



## Tom in OH

WERAHQ,
after using the HDTivo since June '04, I'd say it's well worth a purchase even if your tv is not an HDTV. I would've enjoyed using it almost as much with SD tvs. The hard drive is gigantic and holds plenty of shows, ready and waiting whenever u are. Chances are the next tv u buy will be an HDTV w/HDMI or component and then, your HDTivo will be even more fun to have. Also, your Sony probably does 480p which would look great today from the component output on the HDTivo.


----------



## tpk

Just an FYI to most. I found out by accident on the 31st and again on the 1st, that DirecTV has added Fox and ABC local (i.e. East and West) offerings. If you look in the "All Channels" or even the "You Receive" selection of the grid, you'll notice that all major networks (sorry UPN and WB) are now offered in High Def in the 80's. 

DirecTV has once again made no effort to notify anyone, but at least we can now see all networks in High Def. For those of you still thinking about it, it's pricey, but once you convert, you'll almost give up watching anything in standard def.

Enjoy!!


----------



## Todd76

> _Originally posted by Tom in OH _
> *after using the HDTivo since June '04, I'd say it's well worth a purchase even if your tv is not an HDTV.*


I don't think the larger hard drive is worth the extra $900 or so. If you don't have HD, get the non-HD version. Or two. Or three. And still save money.


----------



## leesweet

Er, yeah. The drive itself is worth about $200 or less.  Unless you are recording things to keep until you get an HD display, I don't see the point, either.


----------



## leesweet

> _Originally posted by tpk _
> *DirecTV has once again made no effort to notify anyone, but at least we can now see all networks in High Def. *


Huh? Yeah, it's in your guide. And *you* maybe can get them because you are in the LA area, I assume. For the average person, they can get only 1 or none of these. (I can get two...) Unless you are in a DNS white-area with no other coverage, or are in an O&O area for that particular network, you can't get these. New waivers are also out, so the viewing population for these is a bit limited! (Only NY and LA people get all of them automatically because the stations are their locals...)


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by leesweet _
> *[...] so the viewing population for these is a bit limited! (Only NY and LA people get all of them automatically because the stations are their locals...) *


Well, 11.6679% of all television households in the country are in the New York and Los Angeles markets, which have unrestricted access to the HD networks in their respective market.

That's not really chump change. 

Anyon ever seen a report on DirecTV penetration by DMA? That'd be interesting.


----------



## mikeny

I seem to get about 12 days of guide data. Is that normal? I know it says up to 14. Is 12 about the most to expect? Thanks.


----------



## leesweet

Well, Doug, I wasn't counting NY and LA, since a lot of people there can get those locals OTA. I know many LA people are behind a mountain or something, and I know NY's not done with the new combiner (is that the term?) on the Empire State building, but I was still talking about the average D* sub.

I also was sort of implying that almost no one except NY/LA can get all of them. Of course, they all evaporate for the rest of us when HD LILs are up, darn it!


----------



## itzme

I have a basic question-sorry if its dumb or a repeated question. Since I have 2 SAT INs and 1 ANT INs (which is split into 2 by the HR10-250). Why can' t I record 2 shows (say using the SAT IN tuners) and watch a 3rd OTA show from the ANT in tuner? Id I try to do that, I get a conflict message that asks if I want to stop recording from one of the tuners. In my mind, tt seems like I should be able to at least watch that 3rd show.


----------



## dswallow

> _Originally posted by itzme _
> *I have a basic question-sorry if its dumb or a repeated question. Since I have 2 SAT INs and 1 ANT INs (which is split into 2 by the HR10-250). Why can' t I record 2 shows (say using the SAT IN tuners) and watch a 3rd OTA show from the ANT in tuner? Id I try to do that, I get a conflict message that asks if I want to stop recording from one of the tuners. In my mind, tt seems like I should be able to at least watch that 3rd show. *


Internally the receiver considers each pair (satellite & OTA) a single "virtual tuner"; so unless it can access all channels on each virtual tuner, it doesn't allow the tuner to be used at all. It would complicate conflict resolution quite a bit, which is probably why they did it this way -- it enabled them to use their scheduling/conflict resolution algorithm mostly unchanged from the SD receivers.


----------



## itzme

That makes sense. So in short, it sounds like "it should but it won't". Well I'm glad I can at least change TV Inputs to the TV tuner and watch an OTA channel from the TV.


----------



## Bobcuch

Hi there... I am not able to put the link in this post because I am new here but, recently I read that the new Direct Tv HD TIVOs will be obsolete in about 6 months because Direct Tv is going to MPEG-4 compression. (I have the link to the article if anyone is interest. Sorry I can not post it here.) I am wondering if it would then be better to wait till Direct Tv straightens all that out before becoming an "early adopter" of the technology.

I currently have 4 Direct Tv Tivos. We love them and I have been saving a long time to put in a dream home theater. I have been waiting for the HDTIVO and was saddened to hear that it will become worthless....

Thoguhts? Is this true? 

Thanks!
Bob


----------



## dswallow

Bobcuch said:


> Hi there... I am not able to put the link in this post because I am new here but, recently I read that the new Direct Tv HD TIVOs will be obsolete in about 6 months because Direct Tv is going to MPEG-4 compression. (I have the link to the article if anyone is interest. Sorry I can not post it here.) I am wondering if it would then be better to wait till Direct Tv straightens all that out before becoming an "early adopter" of the technology.
> 
> I currently have 4 Direct Tv Tivos. We love them and I have been saving a long time to put in a dream home theater. I have been waiting for the HDTIVO and was saddened to hear that it will become worthless....
> 
> Thoguhts? Is this true?
> 
> Thanks!
> Bob


Search around this forum and you'll find a lot of discussion and speculation on the subject.

For most people the HR10-250 has a completely useful lifetime of at least 2 or 3 more years before DirecTV will have changed from MPEG-2 over to MPEG-4. What's happening initially is that local stations will be provided in HD using MPEG-4 and those won't be compatible with the HR10-250. So if you get your local stations over the air just fine, there's really no worry until DirecTV changes national programming in HD over to MPEG-4.

And even then, it's becoming clearer and clearer the DirecTV is going to swap the receivers out for free (or perhaps for a token shipping cost and 1-year commitment), so your investment is protected; even better you get new technology that'll be able to record more programming without having to invest more money.

So if you want HD today, the HR10-250 is a perfectly good choice to make. Announcing its "obsolescence" is highly premature; and even when it truly becomes obsolete, DirecTV's gonna protect your investment by giving you the new equipment you need.

It might even work out better for people -- rumors of pricing on the Home Media Center seem to have it 50-60% higher in cost than the HR10-250; so those people who already have the HR10-250 and accept the equipment swap by DirecTV could very well end up with a better deal than those who don't. And they'll have had use of the HD DVR in the interim -- unlike those people who like sitting on the fence and whining.


----------



## Bobcuch

THANKS! I just found this site earlier today and have gotten now work done at the office today as I have been absorbing all the info I can. I really have waited a long time for this purchase and want to make sure I do it right. I ordered a new dish and switch last night so I am ready to go! Next comes the TV! 

Thanks again for the quick reply!
Bob


----------



## JoeSchueller

Doug, 

The AVS Forum posting I read had it the other way around with pricing in the $500 to $600 range for the server depending on the HDD capacity and $100 for each SD remote unit. While that sounded exremely low to me, it is possible. It all depends on how motivated D* is to get MPEG4 (and perhaps KA/KU) hardware in people's hands.

The good news was that the same poster quoted the D* credit for a HR10-250 as $900.


----------



## marley1

Feldon,

Great article on the HD DirecTV Tivo. One question, any news on when the next version of this product will be released? And if so, and info on new features/cost?

Thanks,

Marley


----------



## buggen

Sorry if this has been covered before I did a search of this question and could not find the answer. I have a 4:3 HDTV, will I be able to watch 4:3 shows through the component output of the hr10 that fill the entire 4:3 screen? Currently I have the older Hughes HDTV receiver (model E86) and if it's set to use the component output even if the show is 480i 4:3 I get black bars all the way around the 4:3 picture. I can stretch the 480i to fill 16:9 but I hate that on a 4:3 TV.

Thanks


----------



## zoro

Is there any way, thjat we can skip ads from recorded HD or SD material?


----------



## qdoggg

zoro said:


> Is there any way, thjat we can skip ads from recorded HD or SD material?


you mean like a 30 second skip?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=227712


----------



## Zentaar

The first wiring diagram has 2 dual tuner boxes connected to a 2 x 4. You could possibly have 4 tuners tuned into 101 odd, 101 even, 110, & 119 (odd or even). There is no way this could work with a 2 x 4 connector. You cannot draw 4 different signals through 2 lines, you need to use the 2nd wiring diagram for it to work correctly. 

The only way the first diagram will work is if you receive all your programing from a single satalite (ie the 101). I assume the first diagram is pre HDTV in which all standard channels came from the 101 satalite, but once you switch to HDTV, it will need to be rewired.


----------



## MattMDK

I live in Los Angeles and can now receive ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX in HD directly through DirecTV without an OTA. This is not advertised but is available in several cities. Most of the DirecTV phone reps were unaware of this availability.


----------



## feldon23

Zentaar said:


> The first wiring diagram has 2 dual tuner boxes connected to a 2 x 4. You could possibly have 4 tuners tuned into 101 odd, 101 even, 110, & 119 (odd or even). There is no way this could work with a 2 x 4 connector. You cannot draw 4 different signals through 2 lines, you need to use the 2nd wiring diagram for it to work correctly.
> 
> The only way the first diagram will work is if you receive all your programing from a single satalite (ie the 101). I assume the first diagram is pre HDTV in which all standard channels came from the 101 satalite, but once you switch to HDTV, it will need to be rewired.


I don't think the caption to that diagram could be any more concise.


----------



## baatz

MattMDK said:


> I live in Los Angeles and can now receive ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX in HD directly through DirecTV without an OTA. This is not advertised but is available in several cities. Most of the DirecTV phone reps were unaware of this availability.


How do I find out exactly what HD programming DirecTV actually offers in my area?

After reading threads on several different forums, I am thoroughly confused...

I live in the Tampa DMA and I now have two DirecTivo DSR6000 units with DirecTV's Premier program subscription.

I want to get a HDTV plasma TV (Hitachi), along with a Hughes HD10-250.

But I do not know what network HD programming I can get from DirecTV. CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX? (OTA isn't an option for me because I live too far from the transmitters in Tampa to receive HD signals.)

All the talk about O&O and LiL is baffling...

Thanks, Ed


----------



## Pangloss

You'd get the standard package of HD channels. PPV, Universal HD, Discovery HD, ESPN HD, and the two HD-Net channels. Showtime and HBO if you want to pay for 'em (or can talk them into some kind of deal). That's the whole shebang.

If you pass the waiver (which they apply for on your behalf when you call DirecTV and order service) then you'll get the major networks' New York City feeds, which are conveniently positioned just below the afformentioned channels in the program guide.

When the guy comes to install, he'll put the OTA stuff up automatically. If does put an extra antenna on the roof, so if you're really certain it won't work then I guess you can skip that part. But you never know, it might get lucky. HDTV signals can carry a long way here in flat Florida.


----------



## baatz

Pangloss said:


> If you pass the waiver (which they apply for on your behalf when you call DirecTV and order service) then you'll get the major networks' New York City feeds, which are conveniently positioned just below the afformentioned channels in the program guide.
> 
> When the guy comes to install, he'll put the OTA stuff up automatically. If does put an extra antenna on the roof, so if you're really certain it won't work then I guess you can skip that part. But you never know, it might get lucky. HDTV signals can carry a long way here in flat Florida.


Pangloss:

Thanks for the info!

So DirecTV customers don't know if they "pass the waiver" until after they subscribe to DirecTV's HD service? What determines who is eligible for a waiver? I would really like to get HDTV now, but if I can't receive the networks in HD at this time, I'll just wait (even longer) until MPEG4 is a reality...

My local stations' signal quality in SD is lousy where I live (about 60 miles south of Tampa) --- maybe in part due to my neighbor's huge trees that are between my house and the transmitter towers in Tampa. Maybe I should just sell my house and move closer or get out the old chainsaw? 

If I could get HDTV OTA that would be great. But it seems pretty unlikely?

Should I just call DirecTV now, sign up for HD and then find out if I "pass the waiver". If I get the waiver, I can then go ahead and buy a new HDTV and HD10-250 at that point or if I don't get a waiver --- I could cancel HD service?

Ed


----------



## Pangloss

That's right. I still don't know myself (got mine on the 10th). In my case it doesn't matter because I get the Miami stations perfectly (which look every bit as good as the satellite channels to my untrained eye). I was just curious to see what would happen, so I requested the waivers.  My guess is they'll be denied.

It's based on zip code, btw. I don't think you can request a waiver before you decide to purchase, but I suppose you could ask.

The SD quality of your locals is irrelevent. The trees... I have no idea. I'm surrounded by trees, for what it's worth. But South Florida is a little flatter than Tampa, I believe.

You should go here (AV Science Forum) and take a look at the thread they have for Tampa OTA. You will probably see posts from other people in your area, as well as posts from engineers working at the stations in your area. The South Florida thread was very helpful to me.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=45

There's also a place where you can go and punch in your zip code and see what stations are available and what the likely reception quality will be. Unfortunately I didn't save that page and can't find it at the moment. Perhaps someone else will have it.


----------



## baatz

Pangloss said:


> "I don't think you can request a waiver before you decide to purchase, but I suppose you could ask."


I REALLY don't like the idea of spending $7,000 + on new HD equipment before I know if I can even get the channels that I want to watch.

From what I've learned up to now, getting HD from OTA is great, IF (and it is a big if?) you live close enough to get a good, strong signal. The Tampa Bay area OTA forums I've read don't sound very encouraging --- and once again, spending several thousand dollars in the "hope" that I can get the HD programming seems absurd from my biased viewpoint.

I guess that once again, I will just have to put off buying that new HDTV plasma TV...

Thanks anyways...


----------



## feldon23

Order the equipment from a DirecTV installer. They'll come out and if they can't get an install, you aren't on the hook for anything. They can check HDTV reception on any TV.


----------



## leesweet

And/or, if you are worried about OTA, have a local antenna shop come out and do a site survey. They usually charge nothing for this if you purchase the OTA antenna install from them, and $50-100 if you can't good OTA.

Your local thread at AVS should have recommendations on a reliable local installer.

(For example: I wanted to get Washington and Baltimore via a rotator and a CM4228; the installed (Fairfax Antenna) said after testing there was no way I'd get B'more, and I ended up with a CM4221 that gets everything (possible) from Washington. But that info from him saved me (and cost him) several hundred dollars. That's the best way to test the OTA if you are worried.)

You can test OTA yourself with an inside antenna if you are close enough, but it sounds like you need an external for OTA where you are. I'd much rather have a local installer test the OTA than the D* installer, who may not have a clue about OTA if he's not done a lot of it..


----------



## zymurgist

I've searched through this thread, but it didn't find any info. After searching TiVo's web page, I found this release. Good news for those with a comprehensive cable HD line-up.


----------



## Lancegolfs

I am a newbe but need a little help! I am buying a couple of the HD DTV boxes (one with tivo and one without) but I have seen posts of problems with mpeg4 & hdmi connection. Are these truly issues or is there not a problem? DTV tells me that mpeg4 can be upgraded on the hr10-250 when available and that the software upgrade on the hdmi connection fixes that problem. Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.


----------



## rric31

Ok. I am the guy that has "stuff". TIVO, wireless connections throughout the house, home theater, etc.

But let me tell you, this HDTV really baffles me. I do not have a HDTV TV, and like many others will be getting one when the prices drop, hopefully in the Plasma world to around $2000.

My question to the board which I am sure has been answered, but I can't find it, is, will I need to purchase a new TIVO when I get HDTV in my household? Once I get the connections from my cable company for HDTV and a HDTV Television, will I also need to purchase another TIVO so I can enjoy my new HD stuff through TIVO?

Thanks

Rich in Maine


----------



## dswallow

rric31 said:


> Ok. I am the guy that has "stuff". TIVO, wireless connections throughout the house, home theater, etc.
> 
> But let me tell you, this HDTV really baffles me. I do not have a HDTV TV, and like many others will be getting one when the prices drop, hopefully in the Plasma world to around $2000.
> 
> My question to the board which I am sure has been answered, but I can't find it, is, will I need to purchase a new TIVO when I get HDTV in my household? Once I get the connections from my cable company for HDTV and a HDTV Television, will I also need to purchase another TIVO so I can enjoy my new HD stuff through TIVO?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rich in Maine


The only HD-capable TiVo-based device is for DirecTV; until that changes, the only way you can use TiVo for HD material is with DirecTV.


----------



## BBURNES

Rric31,

A couple of extra thoughts/answers to your question:

1) Doug is right on. Currently, DirecTV is the only service which provides a product to enable you to record in HD utilizing Tivo. Once you buy your HD TV, if you like Tivo AND want to record in HD, you must get DirecTV.

2) Your current Tivo will NOT record in HD. So even if you switched from cable to DirecTV, your current Tivo will not work. You must purchase the HR10-250 from DirecTV, your neighborhood electronics store or a fine online retailer. Then make the switch to DirecTV.

3) Many cable companies now make HD DVRs available to their customers to record HD content. However, these HD DVRs are NOT Tivo. Generally, our members report that they are most inferior to Tivo functionality.

4) Finally, Tivo has announed plans to create a Cable Card Tivo. When it is introduced, cable customers will then be able to record HD content without getting DirecTV service. So, if you are adamant about not having DirecTV service and really want to stay with cable...hope is on the way. But it will be a new unit as well. Your current Tivo will NOT work at that point with cable either.

Sorry if you knew much of this already ... and for this very long post. But hope it helps clear up the confusion.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

BBURNES said:


> Rric31,
> 
> .....
> 
> 4) Finally, Tivo has announed plans to create a Cable Card Tivo. When it is introduced, cable customers will then be able to record HD content without getting DirecTV service. So, if you are adamant about not having DirecTV service and really want to stay with cable...hope is on the way. But it will be a new unit as well. Your current Tivo will NOT work at that point with cable either. ....


Since I live in a cave, I didn't see this announcement. Do you have any additional information (a release date?).

Thanks


----------



## Sparta Boy

I understand that if you have HiDef channels that they cannot be recorded in HiDef by Tivo.

My question is if I have HiDef channels, can I record it on my Series 2 Tivo in standard definition and have a pleasant viewing experience using an ETV Plasma (as opposed to a HDTV Plasma) ?

thanks!


----------



## bschwart

I heard a rumor that DirecTv was going to stop supporting TiVo. Is this true/has anyone else heard this? I heard they are releasing a bunch of new HD channels in Mpeg4 format which is not supported by TiVo.

This may all be false information I have been given, but I wanted to see if anyone else has heard anything about DirecTV and TiVo's relationship.

I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get the HD TiVo from DirecTv and trying to get all the information I can. It's quite costly, but I'd rather pay more for a TiVo than less for some other no name brand.

Thanks,
Brian


----------



## Budget_HT

Sparta Boy said:


> I understand that if you have HiDef channels that they cannot be recorded in HiDef by Tivo.
> 
> My question is if I have HiDef channels, can I record it on my Series 2 Tivo in standard definition and have a pleasant viewing experience using an ETV Plasma (as opposed to a HDTV Plasma) ?
> 
> thanks!


If you have a stand-alone TiVo, you can use down-rezz'd outputs of an HD tuner to feed into your stand-alone TiVo and record programs broadcast in HD, IF you have a means of selecting the right channels on the HD tuner and the right input on the SA TiVo. I am NOT knowledgeable on how/whether the channel changing part would or would not work. Other folks have some experiences with this.

If you have a non-HD (SD) DirecTV DVR with TiVo (a.k.a., a DirecTiVo), there is no way to tune in or record HD channels--OTA or satellite.

The way to record HD programs from DirecTV satellite and OTA is with the HR10-250 HD DirecTV DVR with TiVo.

Hope I have answered your question here. I was not clear on which TiVo type you were referring to.


----------



## Norma_S

Brian,

I, too, have heard that over at AVSForum about DirecTV and Tivo severing their relationship after the current contract expires in a couple of years.


----------



## omaxwell

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has a "project" to encourage people to build or buy HD recording equipment before 7/1/05 so it will not have the broadcast flag detection in place. They don't talk about DirecTivo HD, however.

If I buy an HD DirecTivo today, 2 months before the turnover, will it already have the broadcast flag detection in place? Presumably they aren't going to convert their machines in stock on 7/1. How will I know?


----------



## feldon23

The broadcast flag was overturned.


----------



## feldon23

I guess it will be time to overhaul this thread soon. I don't look forward to that.


----------



## t0rnado

I have a 3LNB dish and 1 standard dvr and one HD dvr. 

DTV sent two cables to the standard DVR upstairs and two to the HD TIVO on the first floor


The problem I am having is I finished my basement and have placed the HD Tivo downstairs.

Using just the two cables run to the first floor can I use a multi-switch to run the standard DVR on the first floor and the HD DVR now in the basement. 

PLEASE HELP !!! or direct me to an answer...I will keep searching the FAQ's and Posts.

Tony


----------



## guyricardo

t0rnado said:


> I have a 3LNB dish and 1 standard dvr and one HD dvr.
> 
> DTV sent two cables to the standard DVR upstairs and two to the HD TIVO on the first floor
> 
> The problem I am having is I finished my basement and have placed the HD Tivo downstairs.
> 
> Using just the two cables run to the first floor can I use a multi-switch to run the standard DVR on the first floor and the HD DVR now in the basement.
> 
> PLEASE HELP !!! or direct me to an answer...I will keep searching the FAQ's and Posts.
> 
> Tony


In a word...yes.

Most posts about switches deal with going from all 4 (5 with an OTA) to 8. This would be the ideal, and I'd recommend getting a 5x8 switch anyway if you can afford it. Never know what the future will bring. If you have no other choice, you can use a 3x4 switch to convert the 2 first floor cables to 4.


----------



## sandiegojoe

dswallow said:


> Search around this forum and you'll find a lot of discussion and speculation on the subject.
> 
> For most people the HR10-250 has a completely useful lifetime of at least 2 or 3 more years before DirecTV will have changed from MPEG-2 over to MPEG-4. What's happening initially is that local stations will be provided in HD using MPEG-4 and those won't be compatible with the HR10-250. So if you get your local stations over the air just fine, there's really no worry until DirecTV changes national programming in HD over to MPEG-4.
> 
> And even then, it's becoming clearer and clearer the DirecTV is going to swap the receivers out for free (or perhaps for a token shipping cost and 1-year commitment), so your investment is protected; even better you get new technology that'll be able to record more programming without having to invest more money.
> 
> So if you want HD today, the HR10-250 is a perfectly good choice to make. Announcing its "obsolescence" is highly premature; and even when it truly becomes obsolete, DirecTV's gonna protect your investment by giving you the new equipment you need.
> 
> It might even work out better for people -- rumors of pricing on the Home Media Center seem to have it 50-60% higher in cost than the HR10-250; so those people who already have the HR10-250 and accept the equipment swap by DirecTV could very well end up with a better deal than those who don't. And they'll have had use of the HD DVR in the interim -- unlike those people who like sitting on the fence and whining.


thanks Doug, this has been my dilemma. I know the hr10-250 has dropped down to the $600 - $700 price range now (anybody know any better deals? let me know) I was worried about buying it, only to have it become obsolete. I talked to the guy at d* customer service about the new mpeg4 format. He told me that it'll probably be coming around in october or november and when it does, they'll either send you a software upgrade or ship you a new high def tivo and you send em back your old one. He said in the past, these sorts of upgrades have been either free or really cheap.

So now I'm torn on getting the hd tivo before the switch. I wonder if these new MPeg4 machines will sell for more at the stores, like you seem to think. In which case, getting the existing one now and then getting a free upgrade might be the cheaper route. ALthough, I've gotta imagine these tivos will be super cheap right before the change. I wonder if directtv will have some sort of qualifying purchase dates?

decisions decisions.

What do you guys think? should I just be patient? or could it be cheaper to buy a hr10-250 knowing i'll be able to get a free upgrade in a few months?


----------



## mattn2

t0rnado said:


> I have a 3LNB dish and 1 standard dvr and one HD dvr.
> 
> DTV sent two cables to the standard DVR upstairs and two to the HD TIVO on the first floor
> 
> The problem I am having is I finished my basement and have placed the HD Tivo downstairs.
> 
> Using just the two cables run to the first floor can I use a multi-switch to run the standard DVR on the first floor and the HD DVR now in the basement.
> 
> PLEASE HELP !!! or direct me to an answer...I will keep searching the FAQ's and Posts.
> 
> Tony


You need all 4 lines into any multiswitch that is upstream of the HD DVR.
Otherwise you will only be able to see the non-HD (sat 101) programming.

# Matt


----------



## fwarren

I would love to know the answer on buy now or buy later. I WANT to buy it now but can Directv be trusted to upgrade us or replace the obsolete unit when MPEG4 arrives? 

Is the best place to buy an new HD installation with Tivo at Directv or from another vendor? Which one?


----------



## beardad

I Have accidently found a hidden feature that I am not sure how this works. If I happen to catch the end of a show and want to see the whole thing I accidently found a way to record the whole thing if it is less than an hour long. One time I was 52 minutes into the program and another time I was 56 minutes into the program. In both instances I was viewing the end of a SD program. I press the back button to go back at the highest speed to view the earliest captured video then press record somehow it captures the whole program. 

In both instances the Television was off but the DVR was on the channel that I was watching when the Television was turned on.


Has anyone heard of this before?


----------



## rcmitchell

tivo/ces

Well, Tivo plans to lauch a HD Tivo/ Cable Box in Q1 2006.
Bout damn time  I'm really getting sick of this Time Warner Junk, and I will not pay $1000 for a directv box, which driectv is trying to phase out tivo service anyway, without full function. I will pay anything for a tivo tho


----------



## BrettStah

beardad said:


> I Have accidently found a hidden feature that I am not sure how this works. If I happen to catch the end of a show and want to see the whole thing I accidently found a way to record the whole thing if it is less than an hour long. One time I was 52 minutes into the program and another time I was 56 minutes into the program. In both instances I was viewing the end of a SD program. I press the back button to go back at the highest speed to view the earliest captured video then press record somehow it captures the whole program.
> 
> In both instances the Television was off but the DVR was on the channel that I was watching when the Television was turned on.
> 
> Has anyone heard of this before?


Yes. The buffer can often contain more than the 30 minutes that's available from the normal Live TV 30 minute playback buffer that we see. As soon as you choose to record the show, the hidden part of the buffer is added to the new recording. In fact, you do not have to rewind first - all you're doing is losing part of this hidden buffer. You should immediately press Record without bothering to rewind at all. The caveat with the record from buffer feature, of course, is that if the show's ending time has been reached, then you will wind up recording the next show, even if it just started seconds before you chose to record. (You may wind up with some part of the old show tacked on to the next show, however).


----------



## Ericshere

I have a Terk 5x8 multi switch with Hi def Tivo. I have been gradualy losing signals on my HD reciever that doesnt have Tivo. I am now starting to lose some stations on my HDTivo. I am guessing it might be my multiswitch going bad. Anyone else have any ideas? Also, if thats the case...where is a good place to buy a new multi-switch? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Ericshere

Thanks Tom

I have re-booted several times and it doesnt help.


----------



## jmgonzalez

fwarren said:


> I would love to know the answer on buy now or buy later. I WANT to buy it now but can Directv be trusted to upgrade us or replace the obsolete unit when MPEG4 arrives?
> 
> Is the best place to buy an new HD installation with Tivo at Directv or from another vendor? Which one?


I'm in the process of acquiring 2 DTV HD Tivo's through DTV.

My Tivo experience on and off of DTV has been great and have always bought my DTV SD Tivos at a great price for the functionality.

I have no problem buying these 2 new HD Tivos and having DTV upgrade their technology in the near future.

I would rather enjoy something now then to just sit around on the fence waiting for the "next big thing" in HD Directv DVR.


----------



## HDLouco

Ericshere said:


> I have a Terk 5x8 multi switch with Hi def Tivo. I have been gradualy losing signals on my HD reciever that doesnt have Tivo. I am now starting to lose some stations on my HDTivo. I am guessing it might be my multiswitch going bad. Anyone else have any ideas? Also, if thats the case...where is a good place to buy a new multi-switch? Thanks in advance.


I am using a 5 X 8 multiswitch that I bought from http://www.110degrees.com for $69.95 and it has been working for a couple of years now. Another company, http://www.mcminone.com is having a special sale until the 15th of July, and a 5 X 12 multiswitch is being sold for only $49.95 plus S & H and sales tax. The item number is 33-8690, and their sales catalog shows the regular price as $89.99. Take a look at their web site.

One way to confirm that the multiswitch is going bad is to connect the HD receiver or the Tivo directly to the dish, bypassing the multiswitch. Why not try that before you spend good money to replace a switch that might be OK? Godd Luck to you!


----------



## Rutgar

dswallow said:


> For most people the HR10-250 has a completely useful lifetime of at least 2 or 3 more years before DirecTV will have changed from MPEG-2 over to MPEG-4. What's happening initially is that local stations will be provided in HD using MPEG-4 and those won't be compatible with the HR10-250. So if you get your local stations over the air just fine, there's really no worry until DirecTV changes national programming in HD over to MPEG-4.


Let me see if I have this straight. When you're saying that local stations will be provided in HD using MPEG-4 and those won't be compatible with the HR10-250, you're talking about digital local stations provided by DirecTV, right? Not the currently receivable OTA digital stations, right?

And if that's true, then will the new MPEG-4 decoders be backwards compatible so that those of us who get all of our local digital stations OTA will still be able to get them on the new decoders?

Am I making any sense?


----------



## Tom in OH

Rutgar said:


> And if that's true, then will the new MPEG-4 decoders be backwards compatible so that those of us who get all of our local digital stations OTA will still be able to get them on the new decoders?
> 
> Am I making any sense?


You're making plenty of sense. I'm sure hoping Directv Will include an OTA digital tuner. There's a chance they won't because they want everyone to signup for HD locals via the dish. I'm thinking even those who sign up for local HD with D* will also want an HD OTA tuner in case a local station isn't available via dish or some other reason. Choice always seems to be good.


----------



## feldon23

Rutgar,

Yep.


----------



## jmgonzalez

I looked at the FAQ and could not find the correct answer to my question.

Currently have an oval (3 sat) dish installed, connected to a multiswitch, that is then distributed to every room in my house. I am currently using only 1 coax to each Tivo, so i'm not taking advantage of the two tuners. I would need to have any additional coax lines wall fished if I ever want to take advantage of dual tuners.

I am now looking at HD Tivo's to replace 2 of the DTV DVR's that I currently have.

In order to do this, can I reuse that one coax line going to each DVR and not worry about setting up an additional coax? I would rather not do that as I don't know how much longer i'll be in this house.

In talking to DTV minutes ago, I was told on a few occasions that I would need to have an additional coax installed to each TV to support the HDTV DVR.

Any help with this question will be appreciated!


----------



## DonQijote

jmgonzalez said:


> tuners.
> 
> I am now looking at HD Tivo's to replace 2 of the DTV DVR's that I currently have.
> 
> In order to do this, can I reuse that one coax line going to each DVR and not worry about setting up an additional coax?


==========================================

That is exactly what I did for one of my HD Tivos.

- You can use only one connection.

- You can use ANY two connections presently connected to an SD tivo, as long as you have the correct dish & multiswitch.


----------



## jmgonzalez

DonQijote said:


> ==========================================
> 
> That is exactly what I did for one of my HD Tivos.
> 
> - You can use only one connection.
> 
> - You can use ANY two connections presently connected to an SD tivo, as long as you have the correct dish & multiswitch.


Thanks!

I recently upgraded my dish through DTV to receive the Para Todos package, so i'm all setup with the multiswitch and dish needed to acquire HD content.


----------



## Helmut Forren

dswallow said:


> HDCP is a protocol for content protection implemented on both DVI and HDMI interfaces. The HDMI connector itself isn't pin-compatible with a DVI connector, but there is a 1:1 correspondence of the digital video signals, so only an adapter is required. HDMI does include audio, however, which wouldn't be on a DVI connector.
> 
> Here's an excellent description of DVI, HDMI & HDCP: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/DVI_HDMI.htm


This page got moved. A working link 7/11/2005 is http://www.sigmadesigns.com/support/DVI_HDMI.htm


----------



## kalphoto

sandiegojoe said:


> thanks Doug, this has been my dilemma. I know the hr10-250 has dropped down to the $600 - $700 price range now (anybody know any better deals? let me know) I was worried about buying it, only to have it become obsolete. I talked to the guy at d* customer service about the new mpeg4 format. He told me that it'll probably be coming around in october or november and when it does, they'll either send you a software upgrade or ship you a new high def tivo and you send em back your old one. He said in the past, these sorts of upgrades have been either free or really cheap.
> 
> So now I'm torn on getting the hd tivo before the switch. I wonder if these new MPeg4 machines will sell for more at the stores, like you seem to think. In which case, getting the existing one now and then getting a free upgrade might be the cheaper route. ALthough, I've gotta imagine these tivos will be super cheap right before the change. I wonder if directtv will have some sort of qualifying purchase dates?
> 
> decisions decisions.
> 
> What do you guys think? should I just be patient? or could it be cheaper to buy a hr10-250 knowing i'll be able to get a free upgrade in a few months?


I'm feeling the same decision...

I called DirecTV a second time today (called them yesterday as well).

I found a couple of things.

1. The CSR knew I had called yesterday... this didn't seem to help my case.

I again VERY NICELY spoke to him about how I have been a long time customer 2+ years and have had the NFL package for the past two years. I expressed that I wanted to upgrade to the HD equipment but the price was holding me back.

2. He quickly said, "I wouldn't recommend you upgrade yet, you are going to have to upgrade in 6-9 months when the mpeg4 receivers come out.... "

I was a little surprised. I told him I really didn't want to wait as I wanted to watch the NFL in HD....

After some more talking about how I shouldn't upgrade (he said he was "one of the few CSRs that suggest that") he offered me $100 off credit for equipment and $5 off programming for 1 year.

Not the best offer so I said, thank you I'll have to think about it and he said "okay I'll note this in the account and if you activate it will take effect".

Am I screwed? It seems so many of you are getting the $250 credit and all this free programming and such. Is it just the luck of the draw with the CSR?

If I wait a month and call back... do you think they'll up their offer?

Any of you who has had to call multiple times, any advice on what you said that did the trick would be great! Thanks!

---- still have to go attempt to use this coupon at best buy... i guess the decision has to be made quickly. this csr really threw me off when he suggested that I DON'T upgrade....


----------



## g-man

Totally luck of the draw. 

I decided I wouldn't wait for them to offer anything. I called up and told them I wanted the $250 credit towards purchase and HBO/Showtime deal I've been hearing about (I think I said my friend got it). They told me based on my history they could only offer $200 - yeah, right! If I could call them back and prove I was a signed up for a longer period of time than their records showed, they'd give me the other $50. 

They actually don't have one of my addresses and about 2 years of history on file, but that's beside the point. I called back in 3 minutes just to "confirm" that I must prove a longer history and that CSR laughed and said I can go ahead and give that extra $50 of credit to you right now.

Pick up the phone my friend...


----------



## flytivoer

This is really a large post. Forgive me if this question has already been answered, but if so, I didn't find it. I am about to purchase a new HDTV and will also upgrade to an HD DVR (HR10-250) for my DirecTV service. I am in the Chicago area and understand that I do have access to OTA HD for local stations. My question: Do I need to purchase an HDTV with built-in HD tuner to receive these local OTA HD stations? or does the HR10-250 have a built-in OTA HD tuner?


----------



## chill903

The HR10-250 has a built-in tuner. You don't need one on your TV.


----------



## sda3

Right now i have a dsr-704 d*tivo and a set top d* reciever. I have a samsung sir-ts360 and i use it to input my tivo, and my dvd player, then it goes to the tv via DVI. The question i have is, I don't have enough component imputs on my TV for my tivo, dvd, and my game systems. Does the HR10-250 have a component input that i can use to plug my DVD player into and use it to upconvert like the set top box does? and does the hr10-250 have a DVI out?


----------



## MikeCC

sda3 said:


> Right now i have a dsr-704 d*tivo and a set top d* reciever. I have a samsung sir-ts360 and i use it to input my tivo, and my dvd player, then it goes to the tv via DVI. The question i have is, I don't have enough component imputs on my TV for my tivo, dvd, and my game systems. Does the HR10-250 have a component input that i can use to plug my DVD player into and use it to upconvert like the set top box does? and does the hr10-250 have a DVI out?


The 10-250 does not have component inputs: it is an strictly an output device. However, it does have an HDMI output, and the unit comes with an HDMI to DVI cable. So if your TV has either HDMI or DVI inputs, then you should be set.

Or, you can use the search tool to find multi-threads on component switchers. I haven't needed them, but I remember them being discussed.


----------



## sda3

Thanks, I might just have to use a different input for my ps2, if i can get as good of a deal as some people in the forums.


----------



## flytivoer

DirecTV just came to upgrade my satellite dish to an oval, Triple LNB dish so that I can receive HD channels. The installer couldn't get access to all three satellites coming out of the multi-switch so he said that I must have a bad multi-switch. I have a 4X8 multi-switch. Your article seems to imply that I should have 4 cables coming from the satellite dish. However, i only have two. Did the installer do something wrong? My multi-switch as well as your article seem to indicate that I should have four cables going into the multi-switch.


----------



## HDLouco

flytivoer said:


> DirecTV just came to upgrade my satellite dish to an oval, Triple LNB dish so that I can receive HD channels. The installer couldn't get access to all three satellites coming out of the multi-switch so he said that I must have a bad multi-switch. I have a 4X8 multi-switch. Your article seems to imply that I should have 4 cables coming from the satellite dish. However, i only have two. Did the installer do something wrong? My multi-switch as well as your article seem to indicate that I should have four cables going into the multi-switch.


It is my understanding that you need four cables: 2 to transfer the horizontal and the vertical outputs of the 101 sat and 2 to transfer the horizontal and the vertical oucputs of the combined pair of sats at 110 and 119 degrees. The switch will then be able to select any polarity of any sat independently by each one of (up to) 8 Directv receivers. You should call Directv and ask for comfirmation of what I just said here, but I think I am right. Good luck to you!


----------



## Tom in OH

flytivoer said:


> DirecTV just came to upgrade my satellite dish to an oval, Triple LNB dish so that I can receive HD channels. The installer couldn't get access to all three satellites coming out of the multi-switch so he said that I must have a bad multi-switch. I have a 4X8 multi-switch. Your article seems to imply that I should have 4 cables coming from the satellite dish. However, i only have two. Did the installer do something wrong? My multi-switch as well as your article seem to indicate that I should have four cables going into the multi-switch.


You're right, all 4 cables from the dish are needed for the multiswitch to give all 8 outputs access to each LNB.


----------



## kcmurphy88

sda3 said:


> Right now i have a dsr-704 d*tivo and a set top d* reciever. I have a samsung sir-ts360 and i use it to input my tivo, and my dvd player, then it goes to the tv via DVI. The question i have is, I don't have enough component imputs on my TV for my tivo, dvd, and my game systems. Does the HR10-250 have a component input that i can use to plug my DVD player into and use it to upconvert like the set top box does? and does the hr10-250 have a DVI out?


I had this problem and got an A/V system amp with component switching. Denon has a nice line which also converts 480I S-video and composite to 480I component output. So you just need the one component input to the TV as long as it can handle input signals switching between 1080i, 480p and 480i.

Then again, DVI switching would be nice.


----------



## Iceblade

Feldon,

We need to update the section about what HDTV is available to remove the NHL reference on ESPN-HD as they opted not to pick up the contract this year and lost out to Comcast for the next 2-3 years. Comcast will be carrying games on the OLN network and it remains to be seen if/when they will carry anything on OLN-HD.

Regs,
Jeff


----------



## J004

I have a Toshiba RS tx20 DVR DVD and a TIVO series 2 80 hours box and get cable via COX. I wanted to get an HD TV but was confused and concerned that if I run the signal through either TIVO DVR I will not get a HD TV signal to the TV and thus not be able to enjoy the HD quality. Or if I watch a program recorded on hte DVR it will not be HD quality.

My Qs: Does the TIVO DVR effect the HD signal  if I want to use TIVO inline to the HD TV?

What are my options, and do you have any suggestions? ( Don't want to go to DIRECT TV)

If there is no solution and cannot get HD via TIVO/Cable when does one think they (TIVO)will have a solution to this problem?

Thanks.


----------



## lenbo1

How do you tune in a OTA channel with the remote ie... 5-1, 15-1 how do you put in the " - " ? Thanks


----------



## Tom in OH

lenbo1 said:


> How do you tune in a OTA channel with the remote ie... 5-1, 15-1 how do you put in the " - " ? Thanks


...just to the right of the "slow" button(same as " ->I "


----------



## bvd1965

I just bought one and am having problems with it, when I use either a universal remote or the remote that came with it, sometimes it wont accept my commands but 15-30 minutes later it starts doing commands from nowhere, i just had the box replaced and it is doing the same thing, anyone else have this problem?

B


----------



## Tungsten

Hi-

I wonder if it would be possible to update the FAQ at the beginning with "no standalone" to reflect the news of the cable card version from the beginning of the year? There's a press release on the TiVo site (that I can't seem to link to since I'm a newb) from Jan of this year.

Not much news on that front lately, I know, but it is the most current that I'm aware of.


----------



## nyrangers017

I have a hd-tivo, but can't pick up all the locals on my antenna. If I subscribe to basic cable svc and run it through the TIVO will it pick up the HD local feeds? Everyone I've spoken to at the cable company and Direct Tv seem to think it will work- has anyone in here tried it?


----------



## maharg18

nyrangers017 said:


> I have a hd-tivo, but can't pick up all the locals on my antenna. If I subscribe to basic cable svc and run it through the TIVO will it pick up the HD local feeds? Everyone I've spoken to at the cable company and Direct Tv seem to think it will work- has anyone in here tried it?


Unfortunately that won't work.. The HD Tivo has an ATSC receiver for over-the-air HD signals. Cable uses QAM modulation to deliver HD signals.


----------



## nyrangers017

Had a feeling- thanks for the response! Do you recommend any OTA antennas?


----------



## Ragsy

Did you check for outside interference causing the remote to behave badly. Since both boxes are doing the same thing maybe something is interfering with the remote signal. A cell phone or similar object can interfere with the remote signal if it is in the same area.


----------



## vernsh

nyrangers017 said:


> Had a feeling- thanks for the response! Do you recommend any OTA antennas?


I have winegard squareshooter hi band for my local HD channels. I'm about 30 miles northwest of Chicago and the digital reception is great except for some reason, I don't get CBS in HD.


----------



## Hootydog

I'm sure it's in here somewhere but...
How do I turn off the devise with a remote? It's in my master bedroom, makes a lot of noise and would be difficult to hide/enclose in a cabinet or closet without significant wiring hassell and uglyness.

Can't I fully power down when going to sleep (from my bed) and force it to download updates during the day?

Chappy


----------



## Tom in OH

Hootydog said:


> I'm sure it's in here somewhere but...
> How do I turn off the devise with a remote? It's in my master bedroom, makes a lot of noise and would be difficult to hide/enclose in a cabinet or closet without significant wiring hassell and uglyness.
> 
> Can't I fully power down when going to sleep (from my bed) and force it to download updates during the day?
> 
> Chappy


It has a standby mode but I've never used it. After pushing the D* button, standy's at the bottom of the list.


----------



## DaveWhittle

Hootydog said:


> Can't I fully power down when going to sleep (from my bed) and force it to download updates during the day?


Nope, sorry. Think of Tivo like a refrigerator... it's always "on" even when you aren't using it.

-dw


----------



## Hootydog

Dave and Tom,
Obviously yours were not the answers I was hoping for. I will try the standby mode option however I gather it's safe to assume that the (noise making) fan continues to run.

We'll see

PS So if it's like a refrigerator can I at least keep my beer cold with it?


----------



## opie

Just got my HDTV DirecTiVo. Happy so far. Couple questions:

1) My OTA and SAT picture is fine, but when I test my OTA signal I get 0. Is that normal?
2) Is there anyway to make my channel up/channel down not hit the satellite versions of my local channels anymore? I see how I can take them out of my favorites, but I would like to not have them come up at all.
3) Does the TiVo menu graphics at the top get jumpy when changing screens?


----------



## mercurial

opie said:


> Just got my HDTV DirecTiVo. Happy so far. Couple questions:
> 
> 1) My OTA and SAT picture is fine, but when I test my OTA signal I get 0. Is that normal?


You have to tune to a channel you get, IIRC, to see the signal strength for it.



opie said:


> 2) Is there anyway to make my channel up/channel down not hit the satellite versions of my local channels anymore? I see how I can take them out of my favorites, but I would like to not have them come up at all.


You can take them out of the Channels You Recieve list but there is no simple toggle.



opie said:


> 3) Does the TiVo menu graphics at the top get jumpy when changing screens?


Yes, I've seen that too. Not to big a deal.


----------



## opie

Thanks for the quick response!

1) I couldn't get any signal strength to come up for OTA, regardless of channel chosen, which of course probably doesn't matter much since the channels seem to be coming in OK.

2) I've tried taking them out of my channels I receive list, but they will still pop up when I use the up/down channel buttons.

3) Is it possible to program the power button on the remote to power on the Sony TV, while the volume button to change the volume on my H/K receiver?


----------



## mercurial

opie said:


> Thanks for the quick response!
> 
> 1) I couldn't get any signal strength to come up for OTA, regardless of channel chosen, which of course probably doesn't matter much since the channels seem to be coming in OK.


Are you sure you're on the right channel? For instance, you may be watching "4.1" which is the re-mapped channel but your local is actually broadcasting on some other channel (likely in the UHF range) and sending PSIP (if I recall the acronym correctly), data to remap it on your end to the "normal" channel.



opie said:


> 2) I've tried taking them out of my channels I receive list, but they will still pop up when I use the up/down channel buttons.


That should have worked. If they aren't in CIR, then they shouldn't show up in the guide or by any other means.



opie said:


> 3) Is it possible to program the power button on the remote to power on the Sony TV, while the volume button to change the volume on my H/K receiver?


Sorry, no idea- I use a Harmony remote. The older Series 1 TiVos (like the SAT-T60) could do that but I don't know if the new ones can.


----------



## Tom in OH

opie said:


> Thanks for the quick response!
> 
> 1) I couldn't get any signal strength to come up for OTA, regardless of channel chosen, which of course probably doesn't matter much since the channels seem to be coming in OK.


You can run thru all channels 2-69 while checking ota signal and see which ones come up. The station id shows up also for stations with a good signal.


----------



## DaveWhittle

opie said:


> 3) Is it possible to program the power button on the remote to power on the Sony TV, while the volume button to change the volume on my H/K receiver?


Yep - I have the power button on the DirecTivo remote turn on the TV and receiver, the volume and mute controls the volume on the receiver and all other buttons operate the DirecTivo. I'm pretty sure the instructions on how to do this are in the manual.

The Tivo remote is a work of genius.  ...well, IF the power button wasn't so close to instant replay!


----------



## opie

Cool. I didn't think that the remote could turn the Sony TV with the power button, a Harmon/Kardon A/V receiver for the volume, and the channel buttons on the DirecTiVo machine.

Next time, I will study the manual better before asking a question like that!


----------



## Hootydog

Hootydog said:


> Dave and Tom,
> Obviously yours were not the answers I was hoping for. I will try the standby mode option however I gather it's safe to assume that the (noise making) fan continues to run.
> 
> We'll see
> 
> PS So if it's like a refrigerator can I at least keep my beer cold with it?


Quoting my own post...
I was right. Going to standby does not turn off the fan... So I guess I'm stuck with the noise.


----------



## Budget_HT

Hootydog said:


> Quoting my own post...
> I was right. Going to standby does not turn off the fan... So I guess I'm stuck with the noise.


Are you sure that fan noise is the culprit? Could it be the hard drive? Or a little of each?

If my old memory is accurate, I recall reading that some folks have stopped hard drive activity by tuning to a music channel (e.g., in the 800 series) on each tuner because there is no hard drive buffering of the music channels like there is for a video channel. Their goal was to quiet the unit down during sleep time.

Good luck!


----------



## buellwinkle

If I take their latest offer on a HD Tivo they said I have to agree to 12 months of the HD Package. Is this true, can I cancel before then? I don't really care for anything in that package as I don't watch SD Discovery and ESPN now. I mostly want HD for the local channels.

I live in the LA area and have the local channels package, will I get the HD channels ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX off the satelite or do I need an OTA antena to get this? It shows channel 87 for ABC for example, is that OTA or a sat channel? I have an HDTV OTA receiver now but ABC reception is spotty at best.


----------



## RockyTheSquirrel

Just get the HR10-250 HD-TiVo. The picture quality is way better than the SD D-TiVo. 

Because you are in the LA area you shouldn't have to wait until the MPEG-4 upgrades to get locals off the satellite since your locals are the West coast national feed so you should be able to get them without a waiver like many of need to try and get.


----------



## Anubys

sorry if this is a smeek...should this sticky be updated to reflect ESPN2 in HD?


----------



## Tom in OH

Have other HDTivos been acting strange today? Ours rebooted twice today. 

thx, Tom


----------



## A J Ricaud

To Opie: by chance do you have just 1 satellite cable, instead of 2, feeding the HD Tivo?
If so, the OTA signal meter won't work. Also, I believe that firmware version "f" fixed that.


----------



## tbpokestb

A couple of weeks ago, I got an HDTivo box from Circuit City.

My current set up is as follows:

Oval 3 LNB dish
4 lines into a 4 x 8 multiswitch ( I don't have an OTA antenna)
3 standard DTV boxes
1 HD TIVO box

The problem I am running into is that when I use my HDTivo and one tuner is on an HD channel, the other tuner cannot receive standard programming and vice versa (error message - searching for signal on satellie 1). The only way to cure this is to put both tuners on HD or both on standard. In other words, I can receive all channels, but have to tune the HD Tivo to 2 HD channels to watch without error messages. For example, last Wednesday I watched the MLB game on ESPNHD and left the house without changing the channel. Lost was set to record (on standard, as Dallas has no HD local channels through the dish). When I came home, Lost was not recorded, as the box was never able to get a signal.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.


----------



## MikeCC

tbpokestb said:


> A couple of weeks ago, I got an HDTivo box from Circuit City.
> 
> My current set up is as follows:
> 
> Oval 3 LNB dish
> 4 lines into a 4 x 8 multiswitch ( I don't have an OTA antenna)
> 3 standard DTV boxes
> 1 HD TIVO box
> 
> The problem I am running into is that when I use my HDTivo and one tuner is on an HD channel, the other tuner cannot receive standard programming and vice versa (error message - searching for signal on satellie 1). The only way to cure this is to put both tuners on HD or both on standard. In other words, I can receive all channels, but have to tune the HD Tivo to 2 HD channels to watch without error messages. For example, last Wednesday I watched the MLB game on ESPNHD and left the house without changing the channel. Lost was set to record (on standard, as Dallas has no HD local channels through the dish). When I came home, Lost was not recorded, as the box was never able to get a signal.
> 
> Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.


I can't say for sure, but it sounds as if your 4x8 multiswitch may not be cascadable. If it is, and it is working fine, then I'm at a loss.


----------



## A J Ricaud

Check the connections on the cables first. If they are OK then it sounds like either a bad multiswitch or LNB assembly on the dish itself. Hook up your HD Tivo to the dish, bypassing the multiswitch. If that fixes the problem, then the multiswitch is bad or not cascadable (most are). If it doesn't, then the LNB assembly is bad.


----------



## Hrunting

Tom in OH said:


> Have other HDTivos been acting strange today? Ours rebooted twice today.


Tom, I have an HDTiVo, recently replaced by DTV. For the past couple of weeks it's been randomly rebooting now and then. Sometimes, it looks like it's the show that causes it (it hits a certain point and reboots; then the program seems corrupt). Other times, it just happens during the middle of the day. I end up discovering when my 30 second skip goes to the end of my half-hour show.

I haven't looked into it yet. I assume it's the hard drive.


----------



## Big Daddy P

I was so psyched to get this box... and then it came...and then I began to actually use it...oh boy!

Don't get me wrong, it's great to be able to record in HiDef. But the rest of the box stinks out loud!

Guide is slower than molasses flowing down a polar bears tuchose at the North Pole!

The OTA tuner really is pathetic. I'm real close to my transmit towers in Miami, and I've gone thru 5 indoor antennas already. Can't watch any OTA HD station without some periodic pixellation! The signal strength is good, by the way!
Cell phone usage & microwave usage any where near it also cause pixellation!

I'd like to smack the taste out this box's mouth with a louisville slugger! 

What a pain in my arse this thing is!

Hope I don't go postal...


----------



## mercurial

Big Daddy P said:


> The OTA tuner really is pathetic. I'm real close to my transmit towers in Miami, and I've gone thru 5 indoor antennas already. Can't watch any OTA HD station without some periodic pixellation! The signal strength is good, by the way!


If you are really close and the signal is very strong, have you tried adding an attenuator to the antenna feed to see if it helps? You may be getting too much signal.



Big Daddy P said:


> Cell phone usage & microwave usage any where near it also cause pixellation!


Never heard of that before but it could be related to too much signal as per above.


----------



## MikeCC

Big Daddy P said:


> I was so psyched to get this box... and then it came...and then I began to actually use it...oh boy!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's great to be able to record in HiDef. But the rest of the box stinks out loud!
> 
> Guide is slower than molasses flowing down a polar bears tuchose at the North Pole!
> 
> The OTA tuner really is pathetic. I'm real close to my transmit towers in Miami, and I've gone thru 5 indoor antennas already. Can't watch any OTA HD station without some periodic pixellation! The signal strength is good, by the way!
> Cell phone usage & microwave usage any where near it also cause pixellation!
> 
> I'd like to smack the taste out this box's mouth with a louisville slugger!
> 
> What a pain in my arse this thing is!
> 
> Hope I don't go postal...


You have issues that have been noted before: the guide IS slow, and because the OTA tuner is more sensitive than other tuners, you can over-modulate with too strong a signal.

Please add an attenuator as the previous poster suggested.

For specific brands/models, try a search of the threads.


----------



## Tom in OH

Hrunting said:


> Tom, I have an HDTiVo, recently replaced by DTV. For the past couple of weeks it's been randomly rebooting now and then. Sometimes, it looks like it's the show that causes it (it hits a certain point and reboots; then the program seems corrupt). Other times, it just happens during the middle of the day. I end up discovering when my 30 second skip goes to the end of my half-hour show.
> 
> I haven't looked into it yet. I assume it's the hard drive.


Hrunting,
The HDTivo seems ok now after the rebooting spell... could be a normal thing. I've often wondered if it has a hidden defrag utility for when the hd is nearly full or the reboot could be triggered by a corrupt show as u said. 
Also, just started using the HDMI out which has always worked perfectly(maybe not related). Thx for the reply. Is yours working ok now?


----------



## oldskoolboarder

Hrunting said:


> Tom, I have an HDTiVo, recently replaced by DTV. For the past couple of weeks it's been randomly rebooting now and then. Sometimes, it looks like it's the show that causes it (it hits a certain point and reboots; then the program seems corrupt). Other times, it just happens during the middle of the day. I end up discovering when my 30 second skip goes to the end of my half-hour show.
> 
> I haven't looked into it yet. I assume it's the hard drive.


Mine's had the same problem recently. I'm guessing it's the hard drive since I'm recording so many HD premieres, more HD shows than usual.


----------



## Big Daddy P

Attenuator made it worse. Maybe I'll ask D* for a replacement box on the odd chance I've got a bad one.


----------



## feldon23

Tungsten said:


> Hi-
> 
> I wonder if it would be possible to update the FAQ at the beginning with "no standalone" to reflect the news of the cable card version from the beginning of the year? There's a press release on the TiVo site (that I can't seem to link to since I'm a newb) from Jan of this year.
> 
> Not much news on that front lately, I know, but it is the most current that I'm aware of.


Until a HD TiVo product moves out of the vapourware stage, I will not be changing the cable/standalone section.


----------



## Tom in OH

oldskoolboarder said:


> Mine's had the same problem recently. I'm guessing it's the hard drive since I'm recording so many HD premieres, more HD shows than usual.


same here(more HD than usual with premieres)...happened again yesterday. That's 3 times in a week(while watching). I'm leaning toward the corrupted show theory. Several shows in the past week have been flaky with pixelation, dropouts, audio pops.


----------



## mercurial

Tom in OH said:


> same here(more HD than usual with premieres)...happened again yesterday. That's 3 times in a week(while watching). I'm leaning toward the corrupted show theory. Several shows in the past week have been flaky with pixelation, dropouts, audio pops.


We had that for a while and then it seemed to clear up. I feared the drive was going bad and was debatting replacing it with a dual-drive config since I haven't gotten around to upgrading it yet but it cleared up... <fingers crossed>


----------



## feldon23

Well, I am trying to update this FAQ, but of course David Bott had continued to tighten the forum restrictions for no apparent reason. I had to remove essential images/logos from my FAQ posting in order to be able to update it.

This just adds insult on top of the ridiculous Signature restrictions foisted upon us about a year ago. This forum is becoming more and more difficult to use. I visit maybe every 3-4 months to see if this FAQ needs updating. It would be a great forum if management would step aside and let it.

I fully expect a ban because that's what usually happens to helpful people here after we try to improve the forum to no avail for several years (i.e. Otto).


----------



## MozAngeles

"DirecTV TiVos and DirecTV HD TiVos will continue to function for an indefinite period but DirecTV HD TiVos will not be able to receive the HDTV programming DirecTV intends to roll out this fall and through 2006 and 2007. This is because this new programming is in MPEG-4 and will be broadcast from different satellite locations, neither of which the TiVo models can tune to."

PLEASE tell me the $1000 receiver I bought less than a year ago to record HD programs on DirectTV is not now being phased out? It's branded as a DirecTV HD DVR, yet it will not receive the additional programming the new satellites will bring? The whole reason I purchased the receiver and went with DirecTV rather than ZOOM was because of the additional HD channels that were coming in late '05 and 2006. Now you are saying I won't be able to receive them?

Please tell me I just read this wrong...

;(

J


----------



## Rottluver

MozAngeles said:


> "DirecTV TiVos and DirecTV HD TiVos will continue to function for an indefinite period but DirecTV HD TiVos will not be able to receive the HDTV programming DirecTV intends to roll out this fall and through 2006 and 2007. This is because this new programming is in MPEG-4 and will be broadcast from different satellite locations, neither of which the TiVo models can tune to."
> 
> PLEASE tell me the $1000 receiver I bought less than a year ago to record HD programs on DirectTV is not now being phased out? It's branded as a DirecTV HD DVR, yet it will not receive the additional programming the new satellites will bring? The whole reason I purchased the receiver and went with DirecTV rather than ZOOM was because of the additional HD channels that were coming in late '05 and 2006. Now you are saying I won't be able to receive them?
> 
> Please tell me I just read this wrong...
> 
> ;(
> 
> J


I hate to say it, but I was reading in Consumer Reports latest issue that there is a new form of HD programming coming out (MPEG-4?) and they recommended not buying anything until it is all out and available as the new stuff isn't compatible and/or is significantly better (I don't recall specifically which one it was).............sorry dude.


----------



## Randyman...

Hello,

I am about ready to buy a 37" 1080-p HDTV (dual purpose PC monitor and main HDTV monitor), and I want to upgrade my current SD DirecTV TiVo HDVR2 to the HR10-250 HDTV DirecTV Tivo. I am just now learning about DTV's plan to roll out MPEG-4 programming, and the HR10-250's incompatibility with this format. This seems to throw a big monkey wrench into my plan  .

The HDTV monitor I am looking at really needs a DVI or HDMI signal to look its best (the analog ins are not so good), so I really need a TiVo with DVI or HDMI outputs, and being a happy DirecTV customer, I had really hoped I could stick with the integrated HDTV TiVo's simplicity (no analog signal degredation - all digital signals, and a DVR, 4 Tuners, HDTV Upconversion, and Digital Audio all in one box - hard to beat that). 

What - EXACLY - will the MPEG-4 affect (locals, movie channels, all programming - what?)? I live in Houston, so I imagine my "Off-Air Local HDTV" reception would be pretty good if this would help recoup the omission of MPEG-4 on the HR10-250. TBH - I'll still watch 85% or more of my TV in upconverted "SDTV" (like Simpsons, Family Guy, etc), and I also need a good DVR unit to do 480P or higher HDTV "Upconversion" so my new TV looks its best (its internal upconversion is not the best).

I am literally at the buying stage, and now I find this out. What is your reccomendation for a un-familiar HDTV + DirecTV TiVo fanatic? I love my Hughes HDVR2 SD DirecTV TiVo (120GB HD) with all of my heart - and I would LOVE to retain it's all-in-one approach for a HDTV TiVo with digital video outs. I am willing to compromise a bit of available HDTV content for the AWSOME "all-in-one" integration this box can offer.

Any words of wisdom? I'm itching to buy very soon (from now until Thanksgiving).

I sincerely appreciate any input.


----------



## jberger

Just go ahead and buy the existing HDTivo, DirecTV will upgrade you to the new units once everything is in place and functional. 

Don't get caught up in waiting for the "next big thing", because there is always something to wait for. The existing unit offers the best HD OTA/DirecTV integration available today, who knows how long it will take DTV to actually get everything in place and actually began the cut over to MPEG-4. 

If you need something that have a great internal scaler, you might want to look at DVDO's lineup. The DTIVO doesn't have the best scaler I've seen, but the pure digital signal path does help even on SD material.


----------



## Randyman...

WOW! Thanks for te quick reply, jberger. I feel better about this now, and I think I will go ahead and proceed as planned. The complete integration of the HD TiVo is so irresistable!!! Having a 37" 1080-p PC monitor will be pretty kewl as well!

As long as the HR10-250's Upconversion looks at least as good as my current SD HDVR-2 via S-Video, I'll be tickled to death!

Thanks a ton for putting my concerns to rest.


----------



## HDLouco

Randyman... said:


> WOW! Thanks for te quick reply, jberger. I feel better about this now, and I think I will go ahead and proceed as planned. The complete integration of the HD TiVo is so irresistable!!! Having a 37" 1080-p PC monitor will be pretty kewl as well!
> 
> As long as the HR10-250's Upconversion looks at least as good as my current SD HDVR-2 via S-Video, I'll be tickled to death!
> 
> Thanks a ton for putting my concerns to rest.


I ordered my HD Tivo in January of 2004 and received it in June of the same year. I paid $999 minus the $100 discount plus $55 for 2-day shipping. I have never been happier in my life! I love my HD Tivo so much that I just ordered a second one from Directv for $299 minus $100 rebate and minus 6 months of HD Pagacke. I can't wait to get my second unit on October 21st (next Friday) because today, October 16th, I took delivery of what I think is the same monitor you are thinking of buying. I am talking about the Westinghouse 37-inch HD monitor. I have not used my first HD Tivo's HDMI output so far because my old HDTV is an RCA 38-inch set that has only analog component inputs. I am looking forward to evaluating the possible improvement in video quality by using an all-digital system with the Westinghouse monitor and the new HD Tivo next Friday. Good luck to you.


----------



## feldon23

MozAngeles said:


> PLEASE tell me the $1000 receiver I bought less than a year ago to record HD programs on DirectTV is not now being phased out?


It is. This was announced several months ago. I just formalized it by including it in this FAQ.



MozAngeles said:


> It's branded as a DirecTV HD DVR, yet it will not receive the additional programming the new satellites will bring?


Also correct.


MozAngeles said:


> The whole reason I purchased the receiver and went with DirecTV rather than ZOOM was because of the additional HD channels that were coming in late '05 and 2006. Now you are saying I won't be able to receive them?


Correct. a non-TiVo replacement DVR will be made available in summer 2006. For an annoying 6+ months, the new HD channels will be available but not recordable.

DirecTV is handling this ALL WRONG.

If it's any consolation, I'm hearing rumors that DirecTV will replace your DTiVo or HDTV TiVo for free with their new DirecTV/NDS DVRs.

We have NO IDEA how all this MPEG-4 stuff is going to shake out. We may need new multiswitches, more/new wiring, new dishes, etc.


----------



## Tlamb

I think my HD TIVO is dying, how long should a Clear & Delete take? It has already been almost 10hrs!!! Thanks for the help.


----------



## Randyman...

HDLouco said:


> I can't wait to get my second unit on October 21st (next Friday) because today, October 16th, I took delivery of what I think is the same monitor you are thinking of buying. I am talking about the Westinghouse 37-inch HD monitor. I have not used my first HD Tivo's HDMI output so far because my old HDTV is an RCA 38-inch set that has only analog component inputs. I am looking forward to evaluating the possible improvement in video quality by using an all-digital system with the Westinghouse monitor and the new HD Tivo next Friday. Good luck to you.


You guessed it!  Westinghouse 37" 1080-p with Dual DVI (w/HDCP) inputs. I'm just trying to find one on display so I can mess with it, and make sure I will be satisfied with the black levels and general PQ compared to my Wega 27" Tube. As long as it is not horrible, I'm willing to compromise slightly on the Black levels and PQ, and I get a killer PC monitor out of the deal, too! Let me know how you like yours once you get it all tweaked out.

I'll probably look into buying the HR10-250 today *(any links on killer deals?)*, and buy the 37" TV ASAP. I'm really hoping DTV will follow through with the replacement HDTV DVR's. Fingers crossed. Thanks for you guy's info.


----------



## Anubys

Tlamb said:


> I think my HD TIVO is dying, how long should a Clear & Delete take? It has already been almost 10hrs!!! Thanks for the help.


I have one with two 250 GB hard drives. My C&D took about 3 hours.


----------



## Tlamb

FYI - Clear & Delete never finished - new hard drive arrived from Weaknees - replaced old drive in about 10 minutes - so far so good!!!!!


----------



## tall1

Rottluver said:


> I hate to say it, but I was reading in Consumer Reports latest issue that there is a new form of HD programming coming out (MPEG-4?) and they recommended not buying anything until it is all out and available as the new stuff isn't compatible and/or is significantly better (I don't recall specifically which one it was).............sorry dude.


That seals it for me, anything consumer reports recommends is bogus so I feel even more confident about my decision to purchase an HD Tivo now.


----------



## TXTivoUser

Editing to update:

Had a quick question about setup and recording...

1 - If I set up a recording for a show that I can get in both HD (OTA) and SD (D*), how does Tivo handle that? I obviously would like it to record in HD if it can. Is there any logic to switch to SD recording if I'm having signal issues on OTA?

Still need ideas on this...

2 - I've already got an OTA antenna in my attic that goes to my TV that has a built in tuner. Can I use that antenna and split that signal so that I can still use the built in antenna plus let Tivo have access to record on OTA HD?

- Turns out I found out that this can be done via a simple splitter. Maybe the installer will have one to give me.

TIA


----------



## such

TXTivoUser said:


> Editing to update:
> 
> Had a quick question about setup and recording...
> 
> 1 - If I set up a recording for a show that I can get in both HD (OTA) and SD (D*), how does Tivo handle that? I obviously would like it to record in HD if it can. Is there any logic to switch to SD recording if I'm having signal issues on OTA?
> 
> Still need ideas on this...
> 
> TIA


When you set up a recording/season pass selected either by time, or by title, it is recorded on the channel you specify (the HD or SD channel).


----------



## Anubys

TXTivoUser said:


> Is there any logic to switch to SD recording if I'm having signal issues on OTA?


no. if the signal fades, you're SOL...


----------



## jelberse

feldon23 said:


> It is. This was announced several months ago. I just formalized it by including it in this FAQ.
> 
> Also correct.
> 
> Correct. a non-TiVo replacement DVR will be made available in summer 2006. For an annoying 6+ months, the new HD channels will be available but not recordable.
> 
> DirecTV is handling this ALL WRONG.
> 
> If it's any consolation, I'm hearing rumors that DirecTV will replace your DTiVo or HDTV TiVo for free with their new DirecTV/NDS DVRs.
> 
> We have NO IDEA how all this MPEG-4 stuff is going to shake out. We may need new multiswitches, more/new wiring, new dishes, etc.


Question: you note a non-Tivo replacement DVR will be made available in 2006. Then you say the new HD programs will not be recordable. I take it this means that the new DVR only records standard resolution. The question is: given the current (non) relationship between Tivo and Directv, is there likely to be a new integrated Directv HD Tivo at some point? How about just any HD Tivo that works with Directv? Does anyone know?

Thanks.


----------



## feldon23

jelberse said:


> Question: you note a non-Tivo replacement DVR will be made available in 2006. Then you say the new HD programs will not be recordable. I take it this means that the new DVR only records standard resolution. The question is: given the current (non) relationship between Tivo and Directv, is there likely to be a new integrated Directv HD Tivo at some point? How about just any HD Tivo that works with Directv? Does anyone know?
> 
> Thanks.


 There will be no HD DVR for DirecTV for 8-10 months that can record anything off the new Spaceway HDTV satellites because of their MPEG-4 format. No TiVo can record them and the HD DVR from DirecTV's own shop, NDS, is 8-10 months away.

DirecTV has all but severed their contract with TiVo. Do not expect any future DirecTV-integrated TiVo products.


----------



## christoc

feldon23 said:


> There will be no HD DVR for DirecTV for 8-10 months that can record anything off the new Spaceway HDTV satellites because of their MPEG-4 format. No TiVo can record them and the HD DVR from DirecTV's own shop, NDS, is 8-10 months away.


Wow, I'm glad I read here first, I was going to pick up a HD Tivo for DirectTV in the next week or so to go with my new plasma TV. Guess now I'll look for another alternative.

That sucks


----------



## tivoupgrade

christoc said:


> Wow, I'm glad I read here first, I was going to pick up a HD Tivo for DirectTV in the next week or so to go with my new plasma TV. Guess now I'll look for another alternative.
> 
> That sucks


Seems like all the more reason to pick one up unless you are not in market that has good MPEG2 and OTA coverage.

From everything I'm hearing, DirecTV will continue to sell TiVo systems for the forseeable future, but not be proactive in Marketing them. It sure does seem to me that the new stuff DirecTV will be marketing is much more generic and geared towards "regular" DirecTV customers and those who might be comparing with the "comparable" Comcast offerings.

Obviously I have a different perspective, as a vendor who has something to sell today, but unless I'm missing something, there isn't much of a reason to not consider purchasing something like an HR10-250 today unless you place much higher value on local market channels that will only be available in MPEG4 vs the OTA and MPEG2 content that is out there today... am I missing something here?


----------



## DoubleDown

opie said:


> 1) I couldn't get any signal strength to come up for OTA, regardless of channel chosen, which of course probably doesn't matter much since the channels seem to be coming in OK.


You have to use the digital channel/UHF counterpart ie in my area:
KDLH - CBS - Analog 3 - Digital 33 
KBJR - NBC - Analog 6 - Digital 19 
WDSE - PBS - Analog 8 - Digital 38 
WDIO - ABC - Analog 10 - Digital 43 
KQDS - FOX - Analog 21 - Digital 17

I just figured out the channel issue- while in the guide, press info, and select channels you receive.

I setup the volume to control my yamaha receiver after I programmed the TV and it works fine.

I have a total Newb question..... Do you have to call DirectTV to activate your Tivo service? ie, to use Tivo.com to schedule a program? or is what I see what I get?

Thanks


----------



## PortlandPaw

Thank you for a terrific overview of HDTV and TiVo. This may have been covered elsewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I'll ask here.

What is the future of TiVo when HDTV becomes the only signal available?

I understand that people will be able to buy converters so that their old sets can receive the signal, but what does that mean for people (like me) bringing the satellite signal in through a DirecTivo or through a satellite receiver plugged into a standalone TiVo (also me)?

Will DirecTV continue to beam down conventional signals or will they all be HD? If HD, will there be a converter available that will feed into our current equipment? Or are we doomed to replace it all?

In advance, I thank you for your insights.


----------



## bigpuma

PortlandPaw said:


> Thank you for a terrific overview of HDTV and TiVo. This may have been covered elsewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I'll ask here.
> 
> What is the future of TiVo when HDTV becomes the only signal available?
> 
> I understand that people will be able to buy converters so that their old sets can receive the signal, but what does that mean for people (like me) bringing the satellite signal in through a DirecTivo or through a satellite receiver plugged into a standalone TiVo (also me)?
> 
> Will DirecTV continue to beam down conventional signals or will they all be HD? If HD, will there be a converter available that will feed into our current equipment? Or are we doomed to replace it all?
> 
> In advance, I thank you for your insights.


It will be a long time before all channels are HD. I think you are referring to the FCC mandate that all over the air (OTA) signals switch to digital. That will have zero impact on DirecTV as it only applies to Networks broadcasting signals over the airwaves. By the time every channel becomes HD your DirecTivo will be a distant memory.


----------



## PortlandPaw

That's a relief and it makes sense. Now if we can only assure that DirecTV continues to support TiVo, we'll be all set. Thanks for the info.


----------



## gregftlaud

when my paricular market upgrades and they come out and put up the new mpeg4 dish....will it still work with my hr10-250 other than receiving any new hd channels dtv adds to their lineup?

basically i know i can still use my hr10 to record locals ota...but will i still be able to receive the total choice plus package channels with the mpeg4 technology with my hr10-250?

greg


----------



## dswallow

gregftlaud said:


> when my paricular market upgrades and they come out and put up the new mpeg4 dish....will it still work with my hr10-250 other than receiving any new hd channels dtv adds to their lineup?
> 
> basically i know i can still use my hr10 to record locals ota...but will i still be able to receive the total choice plus package channels with the mpeg4 technology with my hr10-250?


The technology is compatible, however the new 5-LNB Ka-band dish uses the frequency ranges above and below the existing used frequencies for the Ka-band satellite signals. While you can probably still diplex OTA signals on lines feeding non-MPEG4/Ka-band receivers, you won't be able to get an OTA signal to the new receivers using diplexers without sacrificing the ability to tune some Ka-band signals -- which may or may not be tolerated well by the new receivers.


----------



## JHanafin

I just bought a DLP HDTV set and I have an HDTV cable box from Cablevision... But an older Series 1 Sony standalone TiVo. I understand it will only play back content in standard definition.

Now forgive the ignorance... I've been reading the thread, but I just want to make sure... I'd like to buy an HDTV Tivo, but what I'm reading in this thread is that it's only available for DirecTV and there are no plans for a standalone HDTV TiVo?

If so, do you have any suggestions for recording HDTV?

I have a feeling I may need to sack the TiVo altogether. It seems like it won't be able to output a decent-enough picture for the new set. (Set would be too good for it, IOW... or I'd be able to see artifacts or whatever.)


----------



## DCIFRTHS

JHanafin said:


> .... Now forgive the ignorance... I've been reading the thread, but I just want to make sure... I'd like to buy an HDTV Tivo, but what I'm reading in this thread is that it's only available for DirecTV and there are no plans for a standalone HDTV TiVo? ....


See this thread for more information on the upcoming HD TiVo.


----------



## emains

Why would anyone want to get a tivo now when they are not compatible with HDTV. I certainly would discourage anyone that I know from getting one now. Everyone is going to want to have HDTV and want to have a DVR that works with it.


----------



## Anubys

emains said:


> Why would anyone want to get a tivo now when they are not compatible with HDTV. I certainly would discourage anyone that I know from getting one now. Everyone is going to want to have HDTV and want to have a DVR that works with it.


welcome to the forum...I'm not sure what you're talking about since there's a HD-Tivo unit out for quite some time now...


----------



## flmgrip

emains, i would educate myself a little more before making such a blunt and unnecessary comment. any TIVO is compatible with an HDTV, i have been watching my SD tivo for two years now on my HDTV. i will upgrade soon to an HD tivo which will deliver me even better pictures on certain programing. and unlike some HD cable boxes the HDMI output actually works....

welcome to the forum, read up a little and you will see what's going on.

i have not watched LIVE tv for two years now. and i am loving every moment of it on my HDTV !


----------



## The_Dude99

I called and went to Comcast tonight. The only deal they would give me was $30 off a month for service. They would not go under $499-100MIR. Where did I go wrong? The CSR kept on telling me why would you want used equipment from a cable company. He kept on trying to rip cable. So basically I got HD DVR for free with cable.


----------



## AlpineZone

christoc said:


> Wow, I'm glad I read here first, I was going to pick up a HD Tivo for DirectTV in the next week or so to go with my new plasma TV. Guess now I'll look for another alternative.
> 
> That sucks


You ain't kidding. I'm in the same boat...



Anubys said:


> welcome to the forum...I'm not sure what you're talking about since there's a HD-Tivo unit out for quite some time now...


I think what emains meant is, according to this:



feldon23 said:


> *What is the future of the DirecTV HD TiVo?*
> 
> DirecTV TiVos and DirecTV HD TiVos will continue to function for an indefinite period but DirecTV HD TiVos will not be able to receive the HDTV programming DirecTV intends to roll out this fall and through 2006 and 2007. This is because this new programming is in MPEG-4 and will be broadcast from different satellite locations, neither of which the TiVo models can tune to.


...there's no point in spending 5 bills to buy a DirecTV HR10-250 if it's not compatible with the HD format that DirecTV plans to use soon...

I'm majorly bummed about this. We just got a Panny plasma EDTV and so far I've been really happy with our SD DirecTiVo. Now I don't know what to do...


----------



## tivoupgrade

AlpineZone said:


> You ain't kidding. I'm in the same boat...
> 
> I think what emains meant is, according to this:
> 
> ...there's no point in spending 5 bills to buy a DirecTV HR10-250 if it's not compatible with the HD format that DirecTV plans to use soon...
> 
> I'm majorly bummed about this. We just got a Panny plasma EDTV and so far I've been really happy with our SD DirecTiVo. Now I don't know what to do...


Have you ever seen Annie Hall? Alvy stops doing his homework because he finds out that the universe is expanding and that one day it will break apart and it will all be over. So what's the purpose of doing homework?

Bottom line: Don't confuse the trend with reality. There are currently no alternatives to the HR10-250 out there (that I know of) and even when they are announced, and eventually become available, it will be quite some time before the units that are being sold today will no longer work. DirecTV has not announced any timeline for the death of MPEG2 only a plan to implement MPEG4. I guess if you are worried about spending $500 for HDTV DVR because it may not work in 3 or 4 years, that is one thing, but is that really what you are worried about?

Slightly off-topic: if the introduction of the R15 is any foreshadowing of other products we will be seeing from DirecTV, then many of you folks may be unecessarily holding your breath, as well. This new fleet of products appears to be even more commodity-oriented than the currently available product. ie, cheaper, less functionality, and certainly not designed to "compete" with TiVo. Remember, DirecTV isn't out there trying to replace all the TiVo systems - they are trying to keep Comcast off their turf...


----------



## AlpineZone

tivoupgrade said:


> I guess if you are worried about spending $500 for HDTV DVR because it may not work in 3 or 4 years, that is one thing, but is that really what you are worried about?


Of course not. If 3 or 4 years is the reality, I'm totally fine with that. Perhaps even a year or two. On the AVS Forum, there has been mention of DirecTV being willing to replace HD TiVos with whatever their new HD recorder is when it's released. Can anyone confirm that?

So, is it a majority opinion that one should just go ahead and proceed with an HR10-250 purchase despite the DirecTV / TiVo marriage ending?


----------



## flmgrip

AlpineZone said:


> You ain't kidding. I'm in the same boat...
> 
> I think what emains meant is, according to this:
> 
> ...there's no point in spending 5 bills to buy a DirecTV HR10-250 if it's not compatible with the HD format that DirecTV plans to use soon...
> 
> I'm majorly bummed about this. We just got a Panny plasma EDTV and so far I've been really happy with our SD DirecTiVo. Now I don't know what to do...


i'd be more concerned that if you really bought an EDTV and not an HDTV that you just dropped more than five bills on something that is already outdated and can not even truly display HDTV since you are missing some of the resolution...


----------



## nunya999

I have an HDVR2 that's hacked for a web interface, downloading of recordings and no call outs. Been using it for 2 years and LOVE it. I'm ready to upgrade to HD and wonder if this new box is hackable for the same features? TYI


----------



## Mikey Palmice

AlpineZone said:


> Of course not. If 3 or 4 years is the reality, I'm totally fine with that. Perhaps even a year or two. On the AVS Forum, there has been mention of DirecTV being willing to replace HD TiVos with whatever their new HD recorder is when it's released. Can anyone confirm that?
> 
> So, is it a majority opinion that one should just go ahead and proceed with an HR10-250 purchase despite the DirecTV / TiVo marriage ending?


Here is what you have to do my friend. Call up DirecTV, ask for retention. Tell them you have done a lot of research about all of this. Tell them that you just spent your hard earned money on a unit that you have discovered may not be able to pick up your HD Locals in the near future. Tell them you were mislead by previous reps, and told that you were told that this device can be upgraded (which it can't). Tell them you want a 200 dollar credit on your next bill, because you can not use this box once the mpeg4 goes into full swing.

They told me at some point you will not be able to get your HD locals with this box, however there is nothing in concrete that says when this will be. Tell them you will not pay for this uncertainty, and you would not get this uncertainty with cable. They could not promise me I would receive my HD locals with my box at least up to the point that the new mpeg4 HD DVR come out mid 2006. I ended up paying 99 dollars for this HD DVR, and I am very happy. Even if they do cut my locals before the new DVR comes out, it won't be as big a deal, as my investment was only 100 bucks.

You need to use the conusion and mis-information at direcTV to your advantage. Believe me, they have taken advantage of the un-informed customers that are still paying 600 for the box.

I rep actually had the balls to tell me that the current HD-DVR could be upgraded with a software download, I was lied to, and I made them pay for it.

Don't take no for an answer.

One question though, why did you buy an EDTV if you want HDTV service?


----------



## AlpineZone

Mikey Palmice said:


> One question though, why did you buy an EDTV if you want HDTV service?


For one, I'm not a *huge *AV techie like probably most of you all. Our family room is rather large and we sit probably 15+ feet from the set. Given that, I didn't see that we would have benefited by paying a *thousand dollars* more for the HDTV version over the ED. It was simply a cost:benefit judgment call on my part. The EDTV is fine for our viewing purpose. Interesting how some would rather criticise my ED/HD decision than to provide feedback on my actual question.


----------



## tivoupgrade

Mikey Palmice said:


> You need to use the confusion and mis-information at direcTV to your advantage. Believe me, they have taken advantage of the un-informed customers that are still paying 600 for the box.


I have to agree, there is a lot of misinformation out there. Basically, what is happening is that people make up their own stories to fill the vacuum. Based upon a few nuggets of information I've received, my story is this:

There are many local markets out there that will not receive MPEG2 broadcasts; when locals come online, it will be MPEG4 for those markets, and those markets will be eligible for free MPEG4 receivers (swap out). I do not think this applies to DVR/TiVo systems, and I think the lack of a 'statement' with respect to DVR's in this context is causing the confusion.

Longer term, DirecTV will switch over to MPEG4, and there will be a transition plan. This will take years, and MPEG2 streams won't be shut off until the bulk of the devices out there are MPEG4.

Given that there isn't any availability of MPEG4 DVR systems (SD or HD), let alone even an announcement as to when they will be available, this isn't something we should be worried about right now.

BTW, I don't think anyone is actively taking advantage of anyone; I think that there IS confusion and that people are just filling in the gaps as best they can.


----------



## Mikey Palmice

AlpineZone said:


> For one, I'm not a *huge *AV techie like probably most of you all. Our family room is rather large and we sit probably 15+ feet from the set. Given that, I didn't see that we would have benefited by paying a *thousand dollars* more for the HDTV version over the ED. It was simply a cost:benefit judgment call on my part. The EDTV is fine for our viewing purpose. Interesting how some would rather criticise my ED/HD decision than to provide feedback on my actual question.


Oh, that's cool, but I think I did answer your question in the first 4 paragraphs of my answer.


----------



## AlpineZone

Mikey Palmice said:


> Oh, that's cool, but I think I did answer your question in the first 4 paragraphs of my answer.


You did. Thank you.


----------



## Anubys

AlpineZone said:


> Interesting how some would rather criticise my ED/HD decision than to provide feedback on my actual question.


booze is the answer. Now what was the question again?


----------



## rcuriel

I saw these at the local best buy on sale and wanted the HD Recording capabilities
and dual tuners, but don't want to use DirecTV's service. Will the Tivo capabilities and other features still work with just OTA inputs?

Thanks!

Ray


----------



## jrm_at_tivocomm

OK, so I'm trying to figure out all this new-satellites-and-service stuff. I called DTV about the status of the current HD-with-TiVo box, and was told by two different people that there will be an upgrade coming to that box that would enable it to work with the MPEG-4 satellites. Once upgraded, the box will be able to receive all HD content offered by DTV, with the content fully TiVo-able. They were uncertain when the MPEG-4 services would be coming online and when the upgrade would be available, which could raise questions about whether a gap might emerge between the new services coming online and the upgrade coming out, and that's of course a little bothersome. And, of course, the world could change completely. But unless I'm missing something, this sounds encouraging, and even close to the Right Thing. I called TiVo to check this out at their end, but they're closed now. Maybe tomorrow.

Anyway, for those of you who know more about this than I (which is almost everyone, I expect) -- am I missing something? This is sounding much less dire than what I had been hearing up to now. Of course, that's the job of the people on the DTV phone lines...


----------



## Budget_HT

rcuriel said:


> I saw these at the local best buy on sale and wanted the HD Recording capabilities
> and dual tuners, but don't want to use DirecTV's service. Will the Tivo capabilities and other features still work with just OTA inputs?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ray


All of the meaningful functionality of the HR10-250 HD TiVo is lost if you don't have an active DirecTV subscription. Even the "on sale" price is partly a DirecTV rebate only available after you subscribe and commit to two years or pay an early out penalty.

That said, I have two HD TiVos and I would not part with them until something equal or better (in MY judgement) comes along at little or no cost to me.


----------



## Budget_HT

jrm_at_tivocomm said:


> OK, so I'm trying to figure out all this new-satellites-and-service stuff. I called DTV about the status of the current HD-with-TiVo box, and was told by two different people that there will be an upgrade coming to that box that would enable it to work with the MPEG-4 satellites. Once upgraded, the box will be able to receive all HD content offered by DTV, with the content fully TiVo-able. They were uncertain when the MPEG-4 services would be coming online and when the upgrade would be available, which could raise questions about whether a gap might emerge between the new services coming online and the upgrade coming out, and that's of course a little bothersome. And, of course, the world could change completely. But unless I'm missing something, this sounds encouraging, and even close to the Right Thing. I called TiVo to check this out at their end, but they're closed now. Maybe tomorrow.
> 
> Anyway, for those of you who know more about this than I (which is almost everyone, I expect) -- am I missing something? This is sounding much less dire than what I had been hearing up to now. Of course, that's the job of the people on the DTV phone lines...


This kind of misinformation from DirecTV CSRs is unforgiveable.

The HR10-250 will never work with MPEG-4. The "upgrade" is really a replacement HD DVR that is NOT TiVo-software-based, but rather NDS-software-based from a sister company of DirecTV.


----------



## cplittle06

I have the HR10-250 connected via HDMI to a Samsung DLP (HL-R4266W), but the reception on non-HD channels is worse than most tube TVs (fuzzy, pixilation which I assume is caused by format conversion). Are there any configurable options via the DirecTV box, TV, cabling (switch to component cables), etc. that will improve my picture?

To take the next step, I guess I could purchase an OTA antenna but do not want to put anymore money into this setup than I already have. What's the latest news on HD local rollout to North Carolina (specifically the Triad)?


----------



## cplittle06

Sorry, reposted as separate thread. Please ignore previous post!


----------



## jrm_at_tivocomm

[see previous posting about DTV telling me that an upgrade for their current HD/TiVo box would make it work with the new MPEG-4 service]

So, I called TiVo today to ask about this question from their end. The rep I spoke to said that she didn't know anything about DTV's plans ("they're our competitor, after all"), but that TiVo had recently announced that they would be shipping an HD-capable TiVo box. She said there had been a press release about this, but I couldn't find anything like that in the press section of the TiVo site.

I >>really<< like not knowing who to believe here. It's not like substantial amounts of money are at play here...


----------



## feldon23

tivoupgrade said:


> I do not think this applies to DVR/TiVo systems


Swapout of DVR/TiVo HD is supposed to be June 2006.



tivoupgrade said:


> BTW, I don't think anyone is actively taking advantage of anyone; I think that there IS confusion and that people are just filling in the gaps as best they can.


If people read this forum they'll know all the facts. I may have to write a transitional FAQ but that would be worthless since this forum will be closed soon.


----------



## feldon23

Folks, there is NO MYSTERY. People are choosing to confuse themselves instead of read the facts. Don't waste your time calling DirecTV, TiVo, or anyone else. The people you talk to are insulated from the facts.


TiVo is developing an HD TiVo for Comcast.
DirecTV/NDS is developing an HD DVR for DirecTV.
and never the twain shall meet.

DirecTV is not getting any more MPEG-2 channels (HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, ABC HD, NBC HD, CBS HD) and will eventually turn those all off and provide them in MPEG-4 only.

Starting in December 2005, DirecTV started offering local channels in High Definition in MPEG-4 format to its subscribers in the 12 top cities. This requires a massive new dish and a new MPEG-4 receiver which cannot do any PVR functions. It's just a tuner.

The MPEG-4 DirecTV DVR comes out in Summer 2006. It will not be a TiVo.

Anyone buying an HR10-250, the DirecTV TiVo HD receiver (which cannot do MPEG-4) is gambling that DirecTV will offer a buyback/tradein to their new HD MPEG-4 DVR when it becomes available in Summer 2006. A few people who already have no trouble receiving local channels in HD with an ordinary antenna will be satisfied with the TiVo HR10-250 for the time being until DirecTV starts offering MPEG-4 exclusive channels.


----------



## dialleft

feldon23 said:


> Anyone buying an HR10-250, the DirecTV TiVo HD receiver (which cannot do MPEG-4) is gambling that DirecTV will offer a buyback/tradein to their new HD MPEG-4 DVR when it becomes available in Summer 2006.


Perhaps no longer a gamble. I just received the HR 10-250 this week. When I ordered it from D* I asked whether it will soon be obsolete. The answer was, "Yes, probably in 6-12 months." They offered to replace it for a total $14.95 fee, including any required dish upgrade. She made a permanent note in my file, and she gave me her employee number.


----------



## Anubys

feldon23 said:


> The MPEG-4 DirecTV DVR comes out in Summer 2006. It will not be a TiVo.
> 
> Anyone buying an HR10-250, the DirecTV TiVo HD receiver (which cannot do MPEG-4) is gambling that DirecTV will offer a buyback/tradein to their new HD MPEG-4 DVR when it becomes available in Summer 2006.


I don't understand why you call it a gamble when DirecTV has been quoted many times as saying that they will offer existing HD-Tivo owners a trade-in option for little or no money...


----------



## bicker

> She made a permanent note in my file


I hope you understand the difference between making a permanent note in your file, and giving you written confirmation of what she said.


----------



## sosaescobar

Well I've had my HR10-250 since October. I'm just hearing about this today. I guess that's what I get for not coming to this site often. Now, for the current HR10-250 owners. What are you guys planning on doing when we can't get HD channels anymore? From what I've read this new DirectTV dvr is getting a bad rap so far. I like DTV and don't plan on leaving them. But I hope their new box is comparable to the Tivos.


----------



## ddrultramix

I am so confused, I was told (I think by BestBuy) that Tivo cant record HDTV yet.


----------



## maharg18

ddrultramix said:


> I am so confused, I was told (I think by BestBuy) that Tivo cant record HDTV yet.


The HR10-250 Directv HD Tivo can indeed record HD. It is true that standalone Tivos cannot, but that should change in 2006.


----------



## ddrultramix

When will the time come where everyone has to switch to HDTV? (Or will that not ever happen?)


----------



## maharg18

ddrultramix said:


> When will the time come where everyone has to switch to HDTV? (Or will that not ever happen?)


There is no requirement to switch to HDTV. Over-the-air TV stations are required to go digital-only (in early 2009 as it stands now). There is no requirement for them to transmit HDTV over their digital channel if they don't want to.

None of this affects cable or satellite channels either. They can go HD whenever they want to, but there is no requirement.


----------



## sosaescobar

They use to say '06. But I just read something recently that says that '06 date is being pushed back. I'm hearing '09 now. But you know how things change.


----------



## tivoupgrade

feldon23 said:


> Folks, there is NO MYSTERY. People are choosing to confuse themselves instead of read the facts. Don't waste your time calling DirecTV, TiVo, or anyone else. The people you talk to are insulated from the facts.
> 
> TiVo is developing an HD TiVo for Comcast.
> DirecTV/NDS is developing an HD DVR for DirecTV.
> and never the twain shall meet.
> 
> DirecTV is not getting any more MPEG-2 channels (HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, ABC HD, NBC HD, CBS HD) and will eventually turn those all off and provide them in MPEG-4 only.
> 
> Starting in December 2005, DirecTV started offering local channels in High Definition in MPEG-4 format to its subscribers in the 12 top cities. This requires a massive new dish and a new MPEG-4 receiver which cannot do any PVR functions. It's just a tuner.
> 
> The MPEG-4 DirecTV DVR comes out in Summer 2006. It will not be a TiVo.
> 
> Anyone buying an HR10-250, the DirecTV TiVo HD receiver (which cannot do MPEG-4) is gambling that DirecTV will offer a buyback/tradein to their new HD MPEG-4 DVR when it becomes available in Summer 2006. A few people who already have no trouble receiving local channels in HD with an ordinary antenna will be satisfied with the TiVo HR10-250 for the time being until DirecTV starts offering MPEG-4 exclusive channels.


I think anyone who wants an HD DVR who doesn't purchase an HR10-250 is gambling that they are going to be happy with whatever DirecTV releases this summer.

Personally, my desire to have an MPEG4 box specifically for locals is outweighed by all of the other content which is already available in MPEG2 and will continue to be for the foreseeable future (ie until DirecTV chooses to shutdown the MPEG2 stream, rendering every non MPEG4 box on the network unusable).

I wouldn't count on any buyback/tradein scenario whatsoever when it comes to DVRs from DirecTV.

I wouldn't count on the MPEG2 stream going away any time soon.

I wouldn't worry about purchasing an HR10-250 unless HD locals were particularly important to you...


----------



## jakegoat

> DirecTV is not getting any more MPEG-2 channels (HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, ABC HD, NBC HD, CBS HD) and will *eventually turn those all off* and provide them in MPEG-4 only.


Does anyone have a good idea when this switch over will occur?

I am slightly myopic in my HD use with my HR10-250. I watch HBO HD mostly, and some Travel HD... not the full spread at all.

Best,
Jakegoat


----------



## cheer

jakegoat said:


> Does anyone have a good idea when this switch over will occur?
> 
> I am slightly myopic in my HD use with my HR10-250. I watch HBO HD mostly, and some Travel HD... not the full spread at all.


DirecTV hasn't announced that they will do this EVER, let alone given a schedule. I gotta believe you're safe for at least a couple more years.


----------



## goku4658

this thread makes me nervous...i just got $300 for xmas to use for tv, and my new sony 42hdtv comes tomorrow. decisions, decisons..


----------



## joetoronto

mine arrived yesterday and while it's only one day, i'm very, very happy with it.

i hooked it up to my toshiba rdxs-32 (sd hdd dvd recorder) so i can burn dvd's. the pq setting on the tivo has to be set at 480i but with the original source being so clear, the pq i end up with is just fine although not hd.

i also have an hd expressvu receiver so guess what toy i'm eyeing next.  

the directv guide is slow but not as slow as i thought it would be after reading about it for a week or so here and elsewhere. i'm thinking it might get slower as time goes on but i don't bother with season passes because besides nfl football, i'm only interested in recording movies.

the "list guide" is actually kinda cool for me because i can aim at one particular hd channel, like hdnet movies, and choose a bunch of movies to record.  

by the way, i spoke to my buddy at directv yesterday while he activated the tivo for me and he said they are well aware of the complaints and concerns from their customers regarding the separation from tivo. he said the company will do everything they can to keep these customers happy, for what it's worth.  

edit: i've had hd locals since i "moved" to new york city back in the summer.


----------



## danryan28

I will personally wait until Tivo launches the HDTV SA Tivo.

Since I can post links yet, you can see the press release at tivo /cms_static/press_19.html

Then I will be able to through away this piece of garbage hd8300.

I had D* for 7 years, with Tivo for 4 of those, and I left because of high def Locals. I was planning on going back, but now I will just wait for the SA.

Thanks again D* (for nothing useful)


----------



## tivoupgrade

BeauB said:


> 2007?


Guess he'll miss the season finale of the Sopranos (in HD)...


----------



## maharg18

BeauB said:


> From (dated today):
> Tivo CES Press Release today


Unless I'm missing something, that press release is dated 20*05* .


----------



## BeauB

LOL - I think the 1/*06* /05 got me, guess realizing that today was the 4th would have helped too...


----------



## jantomas

What to do to get both HDMI and Component out to work together so that two HDTV units can be fed?


----------



## starbucksfreak

feldon23 said:


> Folks, there is NO MYSTERY. People are choosing to confuse themselves instead of read the facts. Don't waste your time calling DirecTV, TiVo, or anyone else. The people you talk to are insulated from the facts.
> 
> TiVo is developing an HD TiVo for Comcast.
> DirecTV/NDS is developing an HD DVR for DirecTV.
> and never the twain shall meet.
> 
> DirecTV is not getting any more MPEG-2 channels (HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, ABC HD, NBC HD, CBS HD) and will eventually turn those all off and provide them in MPEG-4 only.
> 
> Starting in December 2005, DirecTV started offering local channels in High Definition in MPEG-4 format to its subscribers in the 12 top cities. This requires a massive new dish and a new MPEG-4 receiver which cannot do any PVR functions. It's just a tuner.
> 
> The MPEG-4 DirecTV DVR comes out in Summer 2006. It will not be a TiVo.
> 
> Anyone buying an HR10-250, the DirecTV TiVo HD receiver (which cannot do MPEG-4) is gambling that DirecTV will offer a buyback/tradein to their new HD MPEG-4 DVR when it becomes available in Summer 2006. A few people who already have no trouble receiving local channels in HD with an ordinary antenna will be satisfied with the TiVo HR10-250 for the time being until DirecTV starts offering MPEG-4 exclusive channels.


I stopped by the DirecTV booth at the 2006 Consumer Electronics Show on Friday, saw the replacement unit for the HR10-250 and was told by one of the many white-clad DirecTV reps that DirecTV would indeed be swapping out the old HR10-250s for the new unit.


----------



## RangersRBack

flmgrip said:


> emains, i would educate myself a little more before making such a blunt and unnecessary comment. any TIVO is compatible with an HDTV, i have been watching my SD tivo for two years now on my HDTV. i will upgrade soon to an HD tivo which will deliver me even better pictures on certain programing. and unlike some HD cable boxes the HDMI output actually works....
> 
> welcome to the forum, read up a little and you will see what's going on.
> 
> i have not watched LIVE tv for two years now. and i am loving every moment of it on my HDTV !


I want to make sure I understand. I just bought a 40"LCD HDTV, I have a regular SD Tivo and the picture is terrible. I didn't expect to receive HD TV with a SD Tivo, but I didn't think the picture would be horrible either. How did you get that to work?


----------



## joetoronto

RangersRBack said:


> I want to make sure I understand. I just bought a 40"LCD HDTV, I have a regular SD Tivo and the picture is terrible. I didn't expect to receive HD TV with a SD Tivo, but I didn't think the picture would be horrible either. How did you get that to work?


what type of video cable are you using, RangersRBack?


----------



## RangersRBack

joetoronto said:


> what type of video cable are you using, RangersRBack?


It looks like we have one set of cables (two audio and one video) going from one Tivo output to the TV, and another set with two audio and an S-Video going to the other TV input.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## kjmcdonald

Any word from Tivo about the SA HD Tivo at CES?

Any word from Tivo about *anything* at CES?

-Kyle


----------



## maharg18

kjmcdonald said:


> Any word from Tivo about the SA HD Tivo at CES?
> 
> Any word from Tivo about *anything* at CES?
> 
> -Kyle


Apparently you haven't been reading the forums here for the past few days!

Here's one of a few dozen threads about it:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=280411


----------



## joetoronto

RangersRBack said:


> It looks like we have one set of cables (two audio and one video) going from one Tivo output to the TV, and another set with two audio and an S-Video going to the other TV input.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


i'm wondering if your using component cables, that are meant for hd, going into the tv from the tivo. if so, that could be the problem.

i would go with s-video for both outputs from the tivo to the tv.

other than that, make sure you have the tv set for sd, in other words, if your tv is set for hd, than the contrast and brightness would be way too high for sd and you'll end up with a crappy picture.

i hope you understand what i'm trying to say, i'm terrible at explaining things.


----------



## kjmcdonald

maharg18 said:


> Apparently you haven't been reading the forums here for the past few days!
> 
> Here's one of a few dozen threads about it:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=280411


Thanks!

Nope. I came here to look it up and I've read this thread many times beofre so I came directly to it figuring this would be where the info was. Must be too soon to update the initial post. I'm sure they'll get to it.

-Kyle


----------



## feldon23

I have updated the FAQ to include a "stub" about the Series 3 TiVo, which I intend to write a companion FAQ for.
All of the "What is HDTV?" stuff has been moved into its own post (right after the DirecTV post).
Mentioned and pictured the Ka/Ku dish
More info about the MPEG-4 channels
Deleted Comcast section until there is more info (I'm assuming it's _not_ just a branded version of the Series 3?), etc.

And to think I thought I'd be able to say "my work is done here" after the NDS-designed DirecTV HD DVR came out.


----------



## Budget_HT

feldon23,

Your contributions to this forum are much appreciated. Your connection diagrams from a few years ago have traveled many thousands of miles and guided many installations.

Once again, thanks very much for your generous sharing of your knowledge and valuable time.


----------



## feldon23

One of the most important things about the new KaKu dish is that OTA signals cannot be diplexed through the satellite feeds. I've been advising people not to inject OTA into the satellite lines for a long time. Anyone who followed that advice and ran a separate line for Over-the-Air signals is breathing a sigh of relief right now.


----------



## ronpp

feldon23 said:


> One of the most important things about the new KaKu dish is that OTA signals cannot be diplexed through the satellite feeds. I've been advising people not to inject OTA into the satellite lines for a long time. Anyone who followed that advice and ran a separate line for Over-the-Air signals is breathing a sigh of relief right now.


That KaKu dish is not the norm install nowadays is it? For a customer upgrading to HD in one of the markets without D* local HD feeds and with a phase two, they normally would get a phase III correct? Thx. D* is coming wednesday to "install" my new hr10-250 and I am hanging a channelmaster 4228 with a diplexer for OTA locals.


----------



## feldon23

They're going to be putting new (and eventually all) HD channels over the KaKu dish. Try to insist on it.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sorry if this has already been asked, but this is a pretty long thread. 

If one was to get the new AT9 dish but was still using 2 HD Tivos and an SD Tivo (via a Zinwell 4x8 multi-switch) would everything still work using that same multi-switch? And will that same 4x8 multi-switch work when an MPEG-4 receiver is added at some point? OTA is already a separate run and is not an issue.


----------



## Anubys

Mark Lopez said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but this is a pretty long thread.
> 
> If one was to get the new AT9 dish but was still using 2 HD Tivos and an SD Tivo (via a Zinwell 4x8 multi-switch) would everything still work using that same multi-switch? And will that same 4x8 multi-switch work when an MPEG-4 receiver is added at some point? OTA is already a separate run and is not an issue.


someone just asked that question in another forum and the answer they got was that your gear will operate fine and you'll be ready for the mpeg-4 as well...someone even said that the new dish gets better reception (signal strength)...


----------



## Mark Lopez

Anubys said:


> someone just asked that question in another forum and the answer they got was that your gear will operate fine and you'll be ready for the mpeg-4 as well...someone even said that the new dish gets better reception (signal strength)...


Great. Now one more question. If one was to get the new dish, where would they get the initial aiming info from if they didn't have a new receiver? I would assume it would have different settings than the Phase III dish.


----------



## feldon23

The aiming info provided by DirecTV receivers is never as accurate as the aiming info available from other sources. For Phase III and before, the best aiming info is at RCA.com.

If you have 30 minutes to kill, watch the installation video that DirecTV installers need to watch to install the AT9 dish. It's about 10 times as hard to install as the Phase III dish was. Installing the AT9 dish _requires_ a portable level indicator. It really doesn't bode well to have a MUCH more complicated dish at the same time as we keep hearing reports that all the good installers are leaving the business because of shrinking profit margins and bad practices by the satellite companies.


----------



## Mark Lopez

feldon23 said:


> If you have 30 minutes to kill, watch the installation video that DirecTV installers need to watch to install the AT9 dish. It's about 10 times as hard to install as the Phase III dish was.


I have watched the videos and IMO I think it's actually easier (provided you have a meter) than the phase III. The new dish has the fine adjustment screws which IMO are a lot easier to use then the 'hope it doesn't move when you tighten the bolts' of previous dishes. My satellite Internet (Ka) dish has them and it made alignment a snap.

But in any case, that still leaves finding the intial settings when you don't have a newer receiver.


----------



## A J Ricaud

Mark Lopez said:


> And will that same 4x8 multi-switch work when an MPEG-4 receiver is added at some point?


I don't think you can receive MPEG-4 programming with a 4X8 multiswitch. You will need a multiswitch designed for that purpose. The new will receiver would receive MPEG-2 programming though, from descriptions of the forthcoming receivers.


----------



## feldon23

It's not the MPEG-4. It's the frequencies. Before the ultradish, DirecTV used about 1.5GHz worth of signal. Now it's closer to 2.5GHz.


----------



## Guest

joetoronto said:


> i'm wondering if your using component cables, that are meant for hd, going into the tv from the tivo. if so, that could be the problem.
> 
> i would go with s-video for both outputs from the tivo to the tv.
> 
> other than that, make sure you have the tv set for sd, in other words, if your tv is set for hd, than the contrast and brightness would be way too high for sd and you'll end up with a crappy picture.
> 
> i hope you understand what i'm trying to say, i'm terrible at explaining things.


RangersRBack: I have a little experience with the problem you described originally -- poor quality HDTV rendition of TiVo.

What I observed was that std definition programming through my cable box looked bearable. Reducing the sharpness level on the plasma TV helped a lot. BUT, the same program from the same channel through the TiVo was a dismal gritty grainy quality. I use S-video cable from the TiVo to the TV, and the coax came from the wall to the TiVo. I have already observed that the S-video makes a significant improvement over coax, or video+stereo RCA connections. However, replaying a std definition recording form the TiVo was a depressing experience.

I recently dedicated my Motorola STB to the TiVo, using the IR control feature of TiVo. (My Cable Card in the TV gives me the best quality picture of all for HD, direct from the coax.) I use an S-video cable from the Motorola STB as input to the TiVo. That's working brilliantly. The std definition picture quality improved immediately.

Something you may want to consider. My TiVo140 now records the HD channels for the major networks. THAT quality is excellent -- but of course, it's still not full HD, and you lose all the 5.1 sound to become stereo only. I had expected a little improvement. What I got was a significant improvement! It makes my TiVo watchable, again.

Another wrinkle for you, is that my TV enforces copy protection on digital material. Also, my Sony HD DVR is fanatical about copy protection. PatMedia's cable head-end chooses to apply copy protection on its "plus" channel programming (they waive this for their own low-capacity Motorola HD PVR's of course). As a result, my TiVo has now become a very acceptable solution for time-shifting of such channels as ESPN-HD, THT-HD, INHD, HDMovies, etc. For me, that's a -major- step forward.

A Question for This Thread: concerning the very low sound-level problem...
Background... I use stereo audio cable for the sound from the Motorola STB to the Series 2 TiVo, and from the TiVo to the plasma TV. From the TV, I have a fiber-optic link to the AV receiver. 
I noticed the discussion earlier in this thread about sound loss. Yes, that's exactly what I've got. A program coming from the cable that needs 40-45 units on the amplifier requires that I set the amplifier in the 65-70 range. 
I noticed an earlier explanation about the Dolby 5.1 conversion losing the center channel sound. That seems reasonable to me, and would seem to be occurring in my STB. 
The question is... Is there a way for the TiVo to pick up and put out a full strength stereo sound signal? (Perhaps by S-video plus coax coming from the STB?) The quality of the sound is still good, but I'm occasionally forgetful when I change sources, and then I'm nervous about cracking the foundation of my house. 
Any suggestions?


----------



## feldon23

What does this question have to do with the topic at hand?

You aren't watching DirecTV (the only TiVo product available that handles HD) and you're barely watching High Def since you mention all kinds of methods of downrezzing and watching HD material through SD pathways.


----------



## Guest

feldon23 said:


> What does this question have to do with the topic at hand?
> 
> You aren't watching DirecTV (the only TiVo product available that handles HD) and you're barely watching High Def since you mention all kinds of methods of downrezzing and watching HD material through SD pathways.


You, yourself, are "barely watching" the thread you claim to know a little about. See the continuing exchange and trace the quotes. You'll find this discussion involves...
1/9/06 joetoronto
1/9/06 RangersRBack
1/10/06 joetoronto
Since forums are effective when people who have useful insight help to accelerate the experience of others, you might be better advised to either be careful, or keep your destructive opinions to yourself. You serve this forum with little benefit, despite the volume of contributions you've submitted in the last several years, if you assist by intimidation. Thank you for your help in your last contribution.


----------



## feldon23

If you have a question about a TiVo that records High Definition programming, you're welcome and encouraged to post in this forum.

If you have a question about using a TiVo with a box from your cable company, check out the appropriate TiVo forum. I'm not telling you anything any of the moderators and administrators of this forum won't tell you.


----------



## jaspers95

I have an HR10-250 DVR and a 42" Samsung Plasma. I'm noticing that the picture on some HD channels is coming in grainy or pixilated. ESPN 72 & 73 usually come in perfect, but on the local channels(80, 82,86, 88) I notice the poor picture, and it's really bad with darker images. 

I'm using the HDMI connection and I've tried switching the resolution between 720p and 1080i. I tried upgrading the hdmi cables, but that didn't help. I've also tried the component connection and that didn't help. Directv also sent me a replacement HR10-250, but I had the same problem. I'm not sure what to try next.  

Anyone have any suggestions? Could it be my TV? The connection from TV to receiver? or the HR10-250 receiver? Would a software upgrade for the HR10-250 help??? Please help?

Thanks!


----------



## feldon23

What city/market are you receiving locals in? Which callsigns are they? (KTRK is ABC-13 in Houston)


----------



## jaspers95

I'm in New York Market: 80 CBSE, 82 NBCE, 86 ABCE, 88 FOXE. 
Signal strength is great on all 3 satellites.


----------



## Mark Lopez

A J Ricaud said:


> I don't think you can receive MPEG-4 programming with a 4X8 multiswitch. You will need a multiswitch designed for that purpose. The new will receiver would receive MPEG-2 programming though, from descriptions of the forthcoming receivers.


Ok, so where does one find one of these new MPEG-4 compatible multi-switches. I looked around and did not see any that specifically say they are for the AT9 dish. Or don't they expect anyone to use more than the 4 outputs on the dish?


----------



## A J Ricaud

Mark Lopez said:


> Ok, so where does one find one of these new MPEG-4 compatible multi-switches. I looked around and did not see any that specifically say they are for the AT9 dish. Or don't they expect anyone to use more than the 4 outputs on the dish?


Take a look here:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Multiswitches&PROD=WB68


----------



## feldon23

Beat me to it! 

All current 4xwhatever multiswitches cutoff frequencies 750Hz and below for diplexing broadcast (OTA) TV. 250Hz~750Hz is now meaningful satellite signal and so must be passed through. Also there is this Flexport stuff which I still need to read about. 

It's going to get hard to know where to draw the line on what info is provided here? If I create a FAQ for the H20 DirecTV non-TiVo HD DVR, I know it will get deleted/closed by forum management and they would probably frown on me posting a link to it.


----------



## Mark Lopez

A J Ricaud said:


> Take a look here:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Multiswitches&PROD=WB68


I did look at that one, but didn't understand how it's supposed to connect to the AT9 dish. In the dish install video, it shows only 4 outpus from the dish (and 2 of the LNBs are 'jumpered' over to the built in multi-switch). So, how are you supposed to use this one? Use those 4 outputs and connect the 2 'jumpered' LNBs to it?


----------



## maharg18

Take the 4 outputs from the built-in multiswitch and run them to the WB68 switch. The 2 jumpered connections go directly into the built-in multiswitch as normal.


----------



## feldon23

The 4 wires out of the AT9 dish simply have more MHz of signal on each wire. 250MHz -> 2150MHz instead of the old 750MHz -> 1450MHz.


----------



## Mark Lopez

So the other 2 inputs of the 6x8 just remain unused?


----------



## A J Ricaud

Yup. Feldon, I believe, is reading up on the 2 additional "flex ports" and their application.


----------



## maharg18

The flexports are for the 72.5 and 95 satellites, used for some locals and ethnic programming, respectively.


----------



## jn8199

After reviewing most of the pages of this thread, I am having problems trying to get a straight answer (partially because of my ignorance). Please help:

I am a huge Tivo fan. I have 4 networked together. I received a DTV TIVO a year or so ago and it was not compatible with my home network, so I keep my standalone Tivos. I still have DTV though.

I have been upgrading TVs in my house to HDTVs and have the HDTV programming from DTV. But what can I do about my Tivos?

The HD10-250 will not network, correct? That won't work for me.

The new Series 3 HD Tivo standalone announced at CES will only apply to cable customers, correct?

What can I do? Is there a way to Tivo most programming but be able to view programming in HD without 2 feeds? How is this done?

Is there a way to hack the DTV HD-10-250 so that it can network?

Is there a standalone HD Tivo that can be used with Direct TV coming out? What's taking so long? Shouldn't this be pretty straight-forward?

I am a huge Tivo fan, but as a stockholder, I have a problem with this. If forced to choose between putting my HDTVs on DirecTV HD receivers with a DVR (NOT TIVO) and switching to cable, I will definately stay with DirecTV. My cable company sucks and I will never go back to them.

I would think that I am the ideal customer and there are probably more people out there like me rather than cable types, what is Tivo doing to address my concerns?

Can anyone help?


----------



## slocko

the new standalone tivos i think will do OTA plus work with any cable provider that provides cablecard. i'm not 100 percent sure about the OTA, but it will definitely work with any cable provider.

the directivos are all hackable. you won't find the info here, but look around. you might even be able to send the units somewhere for them to do it for you.

the only problem with the directivos is that they won't receive any new hd channels that might go up on the new satellites. but if you are happy with the current offerings and whatever ota you receive, then you should be able to get many years service out of them.



jn8199 said:


> After reviewing most of the pages of this thread, I am having problems trying to get a straight answer (partially because of my ignorance). Please help:
> 
> I am a huge Tivo fan. I have 4 networked together. I received a DTV TIVO a year or so ago and it was not compatible with my home network, so I keep my standalone Tivos. I still have DTV though.
> 
> I have been upgrading TVs in my house to HDTVs and have the HDTV programming from DTV. But what can I do about my Tivos?
> 
> The HD10-250 will not network, correct? That won't work for me.
> 
> The new Series 3 HD Tivo standalone announced at CES will only apply to cable customers, correct?
> 
> What can I do? Is there a way to Tivo most programming but be able to view programming in HD without 2 feeds? How is this done?
> 
> Is there a way to hack the DTV HD-10-250 so that it can network?
> 
> Is there a standalone HD Tivo that can be used with Direct TV coming out? What's taking so long? Shouldn't this be pretty straight-forward?
> 
> I am a huge Tivo fan, but as a stockholder, I have a problem with this. If forced to choose between putting my HDTVs on DirecTV HD receivers with a DVR (NOT TIVO) and switching to cable, I will definately stay with DirecTV. My cable company sucks and I will never go back to them.
> 
> I would think that I am the ideal customer and there are probably more people out there like me rather than cable types, what is Tivo doing to address my concerns?
> 
> Can anyone help?


----------



## jn8199

When you say OTA, I assume that means regular antenae and not sattellite, right? That might allow me to get broadcast channels Tivo'd on the series 3 receiver, but not HBO, Showtime, ESPN HD, Discovery HD, etc. 

The hacking materiels of the DTV Tivos that I have found suggest that the inability to network is hardware driven, and not software driven. Is this correct?

Any idea why this is so difficult? Is it just a pissing match between Tivo and DTV? 

The other issue that I had was that the home control port on the H-10 that i do have was not operational so I had to use IR, which has interference in my house. DTV said that it would be corrected via Over the Air Programming, any ideas if this was corrected?

Thank you for your comments, but I am still no better off. Is there a DTV compatible HDTV Tivo DVR coming to market? Will there ever be?


----------



## feldon23

Mark Lopez said:


> So the other 2 inputs of the 6x8 just remain unused?


 This larger photo reveals the answer:











maharg18 said:


> The flexports are for the 72.5 and 95 satellites, used for some locals and ethnic programming, respectively.


----------



## cheer

slocko said:


> the new standalone tivos i think will do OTA plus work with any cable provider that provides cablecard. i'm not 100 percent sure about the OTA, but it will definitely work with any cable provider.


The Series 3 Tivo will do over-the-air and cable (via CableCard).


> the directivos are all hackable. you won't find the info here, but look around. you might even be able to send the units somewhere for them to do it for you.


It depends what you mean by "network." If you mean MRV, where you can see other Tivos in the Now Showing list and watch recordings across the network, then no, the HR10-250 _cannot_ do that.


----------



## cheer

jn8199 said:


> The hacking materiels of the DTV Tivos that I have found suggest that the inability to network is hardware driven, and not software driven. Is this correct?
> 
> Any idea why this is so difficult? Is it just a pissing match between Tivo and DTV?


Again, depends what you mean by network. The HR10-250 can be hacked to be networkable, but it cannot do MRV (Multi Room Viewing -- being able to transfer shows between Tivos so you can watch in any room). This is a software limitation; the HR10-250 is running older code (3.1.5f).

No one is really sure why the HR10-250 hasn't gotten a software update like the SD DTivos have, though everyone has a theory.


----------



## lflorack

Quote:
The Series 3 Tivo will do over-the-air and cable (via CableCard).

Probably a stupid question but I'm a DTV user with two SA Series2 Tivos. I've recently upgraded to HD equipment and would, when they arrive, buy at least one of the Series 3 Tivos so I can record HD. I'm making the assumption that I'll be able do that using the DTV H10 Reciever as my source? 

I know I could buy one of the DTV HD DVR's but I want to stick with Tivo if possible.


----------



## maharg18

lflorack said:


> Quote:
> The Series 3 Tivo will do over-the-air and cable (via CableCard).
> 
> Probably a stupid question but I'm a DTV user with two SA Series2 Tivos. I've recently upgraded to HD equipment and would, when they arrive, buy at least one of the Series 3 Tivos so I can record HD. I'm making the assumption that I'll be able do that using the DTV H10 Reciever as my source?
> 
> I know I could buy one of the DTV HD DVR's but I want to stick with Tivo if possible.


No, as stated it will support OTA and cable recording ONLY. It would just be way too expensive to include an HD encoder that would be able to take the output of a Directv HD receiver.


----------



## stevel

Bad assumption. The Series 3, as shown at CES anyway, does not support satellite box sources. Cable and OTA only.


----------



## joetoronto

maybe it's just me but i really think the way of the future is in stand alone HD recorders.

i have a toshiba RD-XS32 HDD DVD recorder, if this thing could record in HD it would be the best thing since sliced bread.

it records from any satellite OR cable provider, camcorders, OTA, game consoles...anything with a signal  and it burns DVD's.

i have it hooked up to the HR10-250.


----------



## feldon23

joetoronto said:


> maybe it's just me but i really think the way of the future is in stand alone HD recorders.
> 
> i have a toshiba RD-XS32 HDD DVD recorder, if this thing could record in HD it would be the best thing since sliced bread.
> 
> it records from any satellite OR cable provider, camcorders, OTA, game consoles...anything with a signal  and it burns DVD's.
> 
> i have it hooked up to the HR10-250.


 Too bad it doesn't record anything in High Definition and there is no High Definition DVD format on the market yet.

A standalone High Definition DVD recorder will probably cost $2,000.


----------



## feldon23

lflorack said:


> Probably a stupid question but I'm a DTV user with two SA Series2 Tivos. I've recently upgraded to HD equipment and would, when they arrive, buy at least one of the Series 3 Tivos so I can record HD. I'm making the assumption that I'll be able do that using the DTV H10 Reciever as my source?
> 
> I know I could buy one of the DTV HD DVR's but I want to stick with Tivo if possible.


DirecTV severed their contract with TiVo, leaving TiVo no choice but to produce a cable TiVo.

TiVo is no longer authorized to introduce any new integrated DirecTV products and they have _never_ been authorized to produce integrated Dish Network products. Anyway, Dish Network uses leased equipment and DirecTV is going to leased equipment in March. They want you to rent their substandard equipment instead of buying something better. Cable has been a 'rent their box' service forever but in a rare display of the Government actually having a clue, they forced the cable cos to introduce a universal CableCARD format which TiVo can create products for.

I loved DirecTV and told everyone I could about it. But with the piss poor picture quality on some popular channels (Sci-Fi, Discovery HD, to name a few), half-implemented HD solution (local-into-local doesn't have Fox, WB/UPN, or other HD locals), and dismissal of TiVo, they have eliminated all their advantages over cable for me, and I can get cable internet, phone, AND cable TV for $99/month. I'm currently paying $170 a month for these services from different companies.

*DirecTV vs. Cable: When you can't tell the difference, why pay the difference?*


----------



## joetoronto

feldon23 said:


> Too bad it doesn't record anything in High Definition and there is no High Definition DVD format on the market yet.
> 
> A standalone High Definition DVD recorder will probably cost $2,000.


not yet, that's why i said "the way of the future", although were almost there.


----------



## cancun64

This is the response I recieved about the MPEG-4 issue from DTV in July 2005. It looks like they give a reciever replacement.

_Thanks for asking about HD equipment. I understand your concern about how our Advanced Video Compression HD technology (MPEG-4 AVC) will affect any MPEG-2 equipment you may have. Let me reassure you that most customers will be able to use their MPEG-2 equipment for quite some time.

At this time our current HD programming will continue to be broadcast using the MPEG-2 standard, MPEG-4 technology will be used only to provide local HD programming in select cities. (Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Tampa and Washington, D.C. are expected to launch this year, with more to be added throughout the next year.)

Once local HD programming launches in your city, you will be eligible for an MPEG-4-compatible receiver replacement. If you want to replace your HD DVR, you may need to wait a bit longer. Our new MPEG-4-compatible DIRECTV HD DVR receiver is expected to be available in early 2006.

Thanks again for writing. More details will be available as we get closer to launching the local HD service in your area, so watch your local TV, radio or mailbox for upcoming announcements or visit DIRECTVfor the latest news.

Sincerely,

Karlo
DIRECTV Customer Service_


----------



## pvrsRgood

bkdtv said:


> _Re-posted from another thread..._
> 
> ... we know that the HDTV DirecTivo uses a newer-generation BCM7037 chip. Unfortunately, Broadcom doesn't provide documentation on the BCM7037.
> 
> Broadcom does provide information on the BCM7035 and BCM7038...


Does anyone have a datasheet (not product brief) for the BCM7035, BCM7037, or BCM7038?


----------



## mccunry

feldon23 said:


> I loved DirecTV and told everyone I could about it. But with the piss poor picture quality on some popular channels (Sci-Fi, Discovery HD, to name a few), half-implemented HD solution (local-into-local doesn't have Fox, WB/UPN, or other HD locals), and dismissal of TiVo, they have eliminated all their advantages over cable for me,


I am in the same boat. I have been a loyal DirecTV customer for 9 years. I was a beta user of the original DirecTivo, a user of three Tivos, an early adopter of HD, and have been a 'premium' subscriber of NCAA Season Pass and NFL Sunday Ticket (since 2000). I have always really liked DirecTV (and loved Tivo). I am now beginning the process of completely cancelling the service.

*FACTOR 1:*

I have been patiently waiting for HD locals from DirecTV for the last couple of years. I don't even want to begin counting the false promises that have been made regarding HD local (and national) channels over the last couple of years. I am finally scheduled to receive HD locals in April (Seattle area) all the while Comcast has been providing HD locals for at least a year here. Once a cutting edge company, DirecTV has been horribly slow to compete with cable on HD locals.

*FACTOR 2:*

The NFL SuperFan. This year DirecTV felt they were justified in charging an additional $99 to NFL Sunday Ticket subscribers to watch games in HD ($49 for existing subscribers). What once was a standard service to NFL Sunday Ticket subscribers was inexplicably upcharged. Horrible way to nickel and dime loyal customers. To make matters worse, they claimed that the $99 premium was justified because the customer was receiving both HD and interactive features. At the time, DirecTV did not sell a receiver capable of both HD and interactive. I had to *****, moan, and complain to get that fee waived and was told that it would be a one time waiver. Total crap.

*FACTOR 3:*

A good friend of mine recently cancelled DirecTV. To help him get rid of his equipment I bought his old HR10-250. I called DirecTV to activate the box and was repeatedly told by multiple levels of management that I would have to commit to a 2 year contract in order to activate the recevier. I found this to be completely unacceptable. I went through multiple levels of mgmt and they wouldn't budge. DirecTV expects me to make a blind commitment to them when they have repeatedly failed to keep commitments to its most loyal customers. This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

*Bottom Line:* I can call Comcast today, get multiple HD receivers, get HD DVR, get HD locals, require no crazy wiring, and have a long term plan where my beloved Tivo will likely re-emerge into my life. I can do all of this at a price point comparable to DirecTV.

-or-

I can stick with DirecTV, have to undergo an annoying hardware migration from MPEG2 to MPEG4, have no defininitve HD strategy, have no definitive HD DVR, require another series of re-wiring, and lose Tivo.

I have sold both of my HD receivers on EBay, am currently 'exporting' the rest of my Tivo saved programs to my computer's video capture card, and will soon be decommisioning my SD Tivos. Upon completion, I will get cable hooked up (currently using them for cable internet so it should be quick and easy) and will then cancel. I predict that DirecTV customer retention will go out of their way to try and keep me which is absolutely laughable because their horrible service greatly hastened my departure.

What a disappointment.


----------



## Marty M

"DirecTV vs. Cable: When you can't tell the difference, why pay the difference?"

The fact that Feldon23, who wrote the FAQ for this site, is now asking if there is difference between DirecTV and cable, is an early indicator of the response that DirecTV will receive for abandoning their tens of thousands of TiVo customers. I will be moving in the next six months, and also agree with Mccunry that I can get similar results with cable and avoid the hassle of having to set up an antenna and dish after I move.

However, I have several questions and haven't been able to easily/quickly obtain answers.

I GREATLY appreciate any responses to these questions:

(1) The new non-HD DirecTV DVR. It should be a precedent for the future, and will tell us what type of software will be included in the HD version. The DirecTV web site says that you can select a show and it will record it even if the time or day changes. So it is more than a simple recorder with a clock. 

But how good is the software compared to the functionality of TiVO? 

Does it allow you to prioritize the shows, in terms of what is recorded first in the event of a time conflict? 

Does it have a To Do list that shows you what it did or didn't record in the past, and what will be recorded in the future? 

Does it download the schedule so that you can schedule two weeks in advance like TiVo?

(2) This thread reports that DirecTV has terminated its contract with TiVo. At the present time those of us with TiVo pay for that service through DirecTV. How long will that continue, and how long will TiVo continue to provide programming data through DirecTV? 

When will these services terminate -- not only for HD TiVo but for all DirecTV customers with TiVo?

I also don't understand how DirecTV could have TERMINATED the contract, yet it is still selling the same Hughes HD DirecTV TiVo model that many of purchased in the last two years. DirecTV is still selling a TiVo model, and is thus still selling the service. That doesn't sound like a termination to me.

(3) What is DirecTV offering their current base of non-HD customers who own TiVo units?

(4) I assume we can't set our Hughes HD DirecTV TiVo to download the programming info from TiVo and pay TiVo for that service instead? And even if we could, it is only a matter of time before our current MPEG signal for HD is cut off by DirecTV?

(5) Mccunry mentioned HD DVRs for comcast. Who makes those? Does Comcase provide such units? I assume they are little more than DVRs with a clock that have to be set like an old VCR?


----------



## feldon23

Marty M said:


> (1) The new non-HD DirecTV DVR. It should be a precedent for the future, and will tell us what type of software will be included in the HD version. The DirecTV web site says that you can select a show and it will record it even if the time or day changes. So it is more than a simple recorder with a clock.
> 
> But how good is the software compared to the functionality of TiVO?


The DirecTV R10 (non-TiVo DVR) has been out for nearly 6 months and reviews have been posted at the DirecTV with TiVo forum here at TiVoCommunity.com as well as many other forums. I'd check them out.



Marty M said:


> (2) This thread reports that DirecTV has terminated its contract with TiVo. At the present time those of us with TiVo pay for that service through DirecTV. How long will that continue, and how long will TiVo continue to provide programming data through DirecTV?


DirecTV is still letting UltimateTV DVRs connect and view DirecTV channels (4?) years after they were discontinued. You can still use 10 year old DirecTV receivers with the service. It doesn't cost anything for DirecTV to continue to keep the TiVo-based DVRs going. It's certainly less expensive than swapping out 1 million of them for the DirecTV models at a cost of $300 per. Even Rupert Murdoch who wants to "keep it all in the family" would have a hard time justifying to the stockholders a $300 million swapout that generates only negative responses and would probably piss off a lot of vocal customers.



Marty M said:


> When will these services terminate -- not only for HD TiVo but for all DirecTV customers with TiVo?


The HD TiVo has a different problem. It does not record or play back MPEG-4 programming. The unit cannot even see the Ka band satellites that DirecTV is presently offering HD locals on. When DirecTV adds and/or moves HD programming to MPEG-4 format, the DirecTV HD TiVo will become less and less useful.



Marty M said:


> I also don't understand how DirecTV could have TERMINATED the contract, yet it is still selling the same Hughes HD DirecTV TiVo model that many of purchased in the last two years. DirecTV is still selling a TiVo model, and is thus still selling the service. That doesn't sound like a termination to me.


They have ceased any further development of products and TiVo is not allowed to create any new hardware that works with DirecTV. DirecTV isn't going to sit around for 6 months without an HD DVR while the R20 (the non-TiVo replacement for the HR10-250) is being completed and tested. So they are continuing to sell the DirecTV HD TiVo (albiet with much less advertising compared to 2005) until the non-TiVo R20 is ready.



Marty M said:


> (3) What is DirecTV offering their current base of non-HD customers who own TiVo units?


Since October 2005 they've been offering them the R10.



Marty M said:


> (4) I assume we can't set our Hughes HD DirecTV TiVo to download the programming info from TiVo and pay TiVo for that service instead?


If DirecTV wants to stop supporting TiVo, all they have to do is send a signal rendering every TiVo-based DirecTV receiver invalid. Then there ain't nothing you'd be able to do to get it to work. The receiver itself would no longer be authorized to get DirecTV programming.

In 2003 (or was it 2004?), DirecTV pushed out a significant upgrade to the DirecTV with TiVo software which speeds up the interface, allows all programming and software updates to happen through the satellite with no phone call required, etc.


Marty M said:


> (5) Mccunry mentioned HD DVRs for comcast. Who makes those? Does Comcase provide such units? I assume they are little more than DVRs with a clock that have to be set like an old VCR?


I recommend you do some Google searches. Most cable companies have been making non-TiVo DVRs available for about 3 years now. Dish Network makes them available to their customers too. They're designed by a plethora of companies including Motorola and Scientific Atlanta.

None of these devices are a "VCR with a hard drive". They can all pause live TV, get Season Passes, etc. Some of them even have Wishlists. All the major DVR players out there are producing boxes that provide at least 50-75% TiVo functionality and most people (non TiVo _devotees_) can't tell the difference.

I'm not saying they're great. They have some major user interface nightmares (Especially the Motorola boxes, which obfuscate the difference between recorded and to-be-recorded shows in a single unfilterable list -- talk about maddening!!) and they also can crash, taking all your shows down (the Dish Network boxes tend to do this without warning).

Charter Cable has an exclusive contract with a company called *Moxi* which produces a very advanced DVR which actually looks a lot BETTER and certainly sexier than the TiVo. Several people quit TiVo and joined Moxi, and it shows. The interface is much more advanced, quicker, and cooler. But there are some idiosyncracies that might drive you crazy. If you are in an area with Charter Cable, the Moxi DVR, which costs a whole lot less up front and per month than an HD TiVo, might be a good option. I used one for a week when I was in Michigan, and I would find myself quite satisfied with one given the price ($7/mo, no upfront).

This fall, TiVo intends to release the TiVo Series III which will be compatible with _all_ cable systems as per federal law requiring cable companies to provide customers with a universal *CableCard* if they so request it. I'm working on a FAQ for it -- for now, I've put a _stub_ with some of the details at the beginning of this thread.


----------



## slinden

What is Directv going to do for me after the encouraged me to spend $1,000 for an HD Tivo box and now will make it imcompatable with all new HD programming. Are they going to replace it with a new box for me or are they going to just make me pay another $1,000 for a new box. This is no way to treat a customer, let alone one who has been with them since 1995.


----------



## tivoupgrade

slinden said:


> What is Directv going to do for me after the encouraged me to spend $1,000 for an HD Tivo box and now will make it imcompatable with all new HD programming. Are they going to replace it with a new box for me or are they going to just make me pay another $1,000 for a new box. This is no way to treat a customer, let alone one who has been with them since 1995.


I purchased mine for that much almost two years ago. As far as I know DirecTV has no way to make the HR10-250 into anything that it wasn't when it was first released.

What DirecTV IS doing is bringing new channels online using the MPEG4 standard. It should be obvious (especially if you've been reading this thread) that 2+ year old hardware designed to recieve MPEG2 broadcasts, is not going to work with newer MPEG4 broadcasts.

If you want to receive those MPEG4 broadcasts, whenever they become available, you'd need to update your hardware, whenever it becomes available.

I'm typically not in a position of defending vendors like DirecTV, especially if they are truly encouraging you to make an uneducated decision when making a purchase of a unit, however there is a difference between being actively misled, and just not realizing when you made the decision.

My approach when looking at a purchase such as this (btw, the HR10-250 is no longer $1000 - you can get them for < $500) is to look at it like any technology purchase and consider its "useful life" relative to the cost.

When you purchase a PC, is there an expectation that you'll be able to use it forever and that the vendor is going to supply free upgrades to it as the technology changes and evolves? I don't expect my PC from two years ago to run Windows Vista on it very well when it ultimately becomes available.

The analogy might not be 100% accurate there, because most pc's are binary compatible (although 286 PC's can't run code compiled for a 386 and benefit from those enhancements) and in the DirecTV world, we are talking about a shift in encoding standards, but realistically, the MPEG2 standard isn't going away any time soon, which means there is no reason that two years from now, your HR10-250 won't be able to do the same thing it does today.

Lastly, DirecTV, having moved to a leasing model, has in effect, created a bit of a 'technology assurance' to folks by doing so - just like with cell phones, the cost of upgrading and updating is cheaper to the end-user, as long as you stay in the contract with DirecTV.

For those of you who think I'm defending DirecTV here - I'm not - personally, I am skeptical of the direction they are headed - they've essentially dropped TiVo, are moving in a much more proprietary directoin, their support has become terrible, and it seems the cable providers are poised to eclipse them with lots of new functionality (at a price, however).

BUT, having been a customer for 10 years, I know what my responsibilies are when making an acquisition of something like an HR10-250. and I feel very strongly that it is still a very viable product, as long as you are OK to use OTA for local affiliates in HD (if that is important to you) and want to enjoy the benefits of owning an upgradable TiVo vs a proprietary (and non-existent) DVR.

Lou


----------



## feldon23

slinden said:


> What is Directv going to do for me after the encouraged me to spend $1,000 for an HD Tivo box and now will make it imcompatable with all new HD programming.


Give you a DirecTV HD DVR R20 when it becomes available this summer.

Lou,

I would be on board with you if DirecTV hadn't treated TiVo with open disdain for the last 2 years.


----------



## mpbishop22

Any updates on the release date of the series 3... I cant stand my DVR from Cox, and does anyone have any cost information?


----------



## Iwanthd

Is there any way to determine how much room is left on the hard drive of the HR10-250?


----------



## joetoronto

Iwanthd said:


> Is there any way to determine how much room is left on the hard drive of the HR10-250?


i wish, that would be nice.


----------



## Budget_HT

Iwanthd said:


> Is there any way to determine how much room is left on the hard drive of the HR10-250?


I let the number of suggestions tell me how much more room is available. You do have to pay attention to HD vs. SD recordings because their file sizes vary so much.

Granted, this is a very indirect method, but all we have to work with.


----------



## joetoronto

Budget_HT said:


> I let the number of suggestions tell me how much more room is available. You do have to pay attention to HD vs. SD recordings because their file sizes vary so much.
> 
> Granted, this is a very indirect method, but all we have to work with.


could you elaborate please, Budget_HT?

how many pages of suggestions do you have when the drive is getting full?

Iwanthd: i don't know about you but i use my main HR10 for recording pretty much only HD movies. they say it holds 30 hours of HD programming so that works out to roughly 15 movies in HD.

i don't let it get past 12 movies, just in case.


----------



## Budget_HT

Joe,

If you turn on suggestions, they will fill up the remainder of the hard drive. They are listed at the end of the now playing list. The system will delete suggestions first if space is needed to record more programs that you have specified.

So, you can monitor the quantity of suggestions to get a rough idea of how much usable recording space is left. But you also must consider what programs are already committed to record in the to do list.

Obviously this is not an exact method, but at least it gives you a way to estimate where you stand.


----------



## joetoronto

Budget_HT said:


> Joe,
> 
> If you turn on suggestions, they will fill up the remainder of the hard drive. They are listed at the end of the now playing list. The system will delete suggestions first if space is needed to record more programs that you have specified.
> 
> So, you can monitor the quantity of suggestions to get a rough idea of how much usable recording space is left. But you also must consider what programs are already committed to record in the to do list.
> 
> Obviously this is not an exact method, but at least it gives you a way to estimate where you stand.


i see, i've always kept my suggestions off, thinking i'd be saving space but your right, thanks for the tip, Budget_HT. :up:


----------



## Anubys

there is considerable debate about this, but some people (me included) think that a full hard drive is one of the things that cause the HD-Tivo to reboot and generally misbehave...so filling-up your hard drive with a ton of shows just to know how much space you have might be a price you're not willing to pay... 

just keep that in mind...


----------



## joetoronto

Anubys said:


> there is considerable debate about this, but some people (me included) think that a full hard drive is one of the things that cause the HD-Tivo to reboot and generally misbehave...so filling-up your hard drive with a ton of shows just to know how much space you have might be a price you're not willing to pay...
> 
> just keep that in mind...


ok, now i'm REALLY confused. 

this is the way i've been thinking all along, i don't let the drive get at, or near, capacity.


----------



## Anubys

joetoronto said:


> ok, now i'm REALLY confused.
> 
> this is the way i've been thinking all along, i don't let the drive get at, or near, capacity.


sorry to be the source of confusion...you asked if there's a way to know how much drive space is left...the poster that answered you gave you the correct answer (to turn on suggestion and see how much stuff piles up on the drive)...

I just wanted to point out that this "trick" MAY come at a cost since it seems that a full drive has a higher tendency to have problems (another reason is keeping very old recordings)...

I want to make sure that you understand that this is an opinion, not a fact and that some people might disagree with that opinion...

I'm just trying to make sure you have all the information...Once your unit starts rebooting and losing recordings and generally acting up, you tend to be very sensitive to anything that might upset it...if all you want is to know how much drive space you have, it is my opinion that the risk you are taking does not outweigh the benefit...


----------



## joetoronto

Anubys said:


> sorry to be the source of confusion...you asked if there's a way to know how much drive space is left...the poster that answered you gave you the correct answer (to turn on suggestion and see how much stuff piles up on the drive)...
> 
> I just wanted to point out that this "trick" MAY come at a cost since it seems that a full drive has a higher tendency to have problems (another reason is keeping very old recordings)...
> 
> I want to make sure that you understand that this is an opinion, not a fact and that some people might disagree with that opinion...
> 
> I'm just trying to make sure you have all the information...Once your unit starts rebooting and losing recordings and generally acting up, you tend to be very sensitive to anything that might upset it...if all you want is to know how much drive space you have, it is my opinion that the risk you are taking does not outweigh the benefit...


i should have been clear, i understood both concepts, one filling the drive with suggestions to determine available space and the other basically staying away from loading up the drive.

the confusion comes from deciding which way to go.

i think i'll play it safe and stick to what's been working so far, no more than approximately 24 hours of HD content.

thanks just the same, Anubys.


----------



## Budget_HT

Anubys,

I share your concerns for full hard drive issues. So far, I have been lucky in that area with both of my HD TiVo's. I bought one the second month after they were released and the second one last October.

It's too bad that we won't see a new generation of the DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo because I think they could have solved most of the issues that are well known today.

I guess the series 3 SA HD TiVo will benefit from the HR10-250 experience, and/or the Comcast boxes running TiVo software.


----------



## s50e30

let me know if we should move my post to another thread, but this seems
like the best general info spot for HDTiVo questions. anyway, here are
my question(s) :

1) what's the story on getting a used HR10-250 activated by D* ?

with the current lease situation, I'd rather own the hardware instead of being
tied to them owning it. I've heard from some people that you can run into
trouble getting a new receiver activated by D* and from others that it's largely
a function of the person you get on the phone and or your rap with them and
you can get them activated w/o too much trouble. 

so is there a (within reason) sure-fire way to get a used receiver activated ?


2) will the HR10-250 integrate the OTA signal into it's guide and whatnot
even if you're not getting the HD package from D* ?

I'm not really all that interested in the HD content that D* offers currently
as the channel line-up is relatively limited & most of the stuff I'd like to
see in HD should be available OTA to me. so I'm thinking that if it will work,
I'll just let the D* HD package drop off after whatever introductory period
I get from them (tho I guess this might not be an issue if I don't get the
HR10-250 thru D* as they'll have no reason to sweeten the lease price with
all sorts of extras) is over and run with SD content from D* and OTA HD stuff.

so, will the HR10-250 & the OS of the receiver let me work it that way ?


down the road I'll either dump D* and go with (shudder) Comcast when/if
they have a robust TiVo implementation, but for now with the single HD
set I plan to have & the likely programming that I'm interested in watching
in HD being available OTA*, worrying about the MPEG4 HD stream & hardware
to work with it isn't really a priority for me.



Ben


*relative to OTA programming for me area (SE Michigan) I think I should
be in good shape as I'm pretty close to all the broadcast locations, but
I'll have to check that with the various OTA-signal strength-specific pages
and whatnot. if I'm in some sort of dead zone most of the above will be
academic as I want to be able to get my locals OTA....


----------



## Anubys

s50e30 said:


> 1) what's the story on getting a used HR10-250 activated by D* ?
> 
> with the current lease situation, I'd rather own the hardware instead of being
> tied to them owning it.
> so is there a (within reason) sure-fire way to get a used receiver activated ?
> 
> 2) will the HR10-250 integrate the OTA signal into it's guide and whatnot
> even if you're not getting the HD package from D* ?


welcome to the forum!

question 1: I'm not aware of any issue...you call D* and ask for a new access card. They send it to you, and you use it to activate your unit. For ANY dealings with D*, if a CSR won't help, just hang up and call again...but this is a straight forward deal, no CSR will deny you a new card...

question 2: Yes. As long as your antenna picks up the channel, the HD-Tivo will integrate it into the guide...if ABC is channel 7, for example, the guide will show channel 7 (which would be SD OTA) and channel 7-1 (which would be HD OTA)...your local ABC channel might have even more subchannels for weather, local traffic, etc. Those will show as 7-2 and 7-3...so you have no worries there.


----------



## s50e30

cool, I suspected that I was getting alarmist info on not being able
to get an access card for a used receiver. I'll have to start watching
eBay to see what the going rate is for them. might have to check
with other forums which have been mentioned here as having
classifieds as well, tho I've had pretty good luck with eBay in 
general.

I guess the only question now is what sort of retain-me-as-a-
subscriber leverage I'll have with D* to be able to get freebies
if I'm not buying the HD box from them.

then again I'm not all that interested in the HD content they
have anyway - my rationale against getting all worked up about
HD has always been that I don't actively _watch_ many shows on
TV, rather have them running in the background while I do stuff
online or read a magazine or whatever. if I actually start just staring
at the majesty of the HD content I'm going to seriously cut into the
time I waste doing all that other stuff  I'm mostly interested in
getting things set up so I can watch the NBA playoffs in HD this year.


If I have an existing 3-LNB oval dish will I need to do anything
special to get the current MPEG2 HD D* content into the house ?
I happen to only have 3 of the 4 lines off the dish active due to
how the wires were stuffed when the initial install was done, but
I can get around that I run another wire if needed.


I wonder what the HR10-250 will do if one doesn't have the
box active with D* at all ? would be neat if it would work as
a basically stand-alone HD DVR, but that seems unlikely as it
wouldn't have a D* guide to integrate the OTA content with.


now I just have to go lurk on avsforums and figure out if my
initial thought that the Sony KDF-E42A10 will work for my
needs is correct....


Ben


----------



## jtb

Please forgive the somewhat newbie question,to receive sd signal i will need to leave the s-video cable hooked up along with the component cable for HD?


----------



## Iceblade

jtb said:


> Please forgive the somewhat newbie question,to receive sd signal i will need to leave the s-video cable hooked up along with the component cable for HD?


Well, you CAN do that.. and then switch TV inputs based on whether you are watching SD or HD. I used to do that, but then I got tired of that route so I just set the HR10-250 to output either 480p or 1080i and watch only over the HDMI/DVI input on the tv. I just use the up arrow method to toggle between resolutions when viewing SD or HD. I mean, D* compression on most SD channels is so craptastic that upconverting it to 480p or 1080i doesn't really matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. YMMV.

Regs,
Jeff


----------



## joetoronto

jtb said:


> Please forgive the somewhat newbie question,to receive sd signal i will need to leave the s-video cable hooked up along with the component cable for HD?


there _is_ a difference, jtb. i think you should go ahead and hookup the s-video cable too and then decide in the future whether you don't mind changing inputs.


----------



## Anubys

you can also get a remote that does everything for you...the Harmony remotes -- among others -- will do all the switching for you (including switching receivers if you route your audio through one, for example) at the press of a button...


----------



## lflorack

Anubys said:


> you can also get a remote that does everything for you...the Harmony remotes -- among others -- will do all the switching for you (including switching receivers if you route your audio through one, for example) at the press of a button...


That's what I do. Universal remotes (I have an MX-500) with macros are great!


----------



## jpeckinp

Anubys said:


> there is considerable debate about this, but some people (me included) think that a full hard drive is one of the things that cause the HD-Tivo to reboot and generally misbehave...so filling-up your hard drive with a ton of shows just to know how much space you have might be a price you're not willing to pay...
> 
> just keep that in mind...


I never keep shows. After I watch them I would delete them and my HD lasted 7 months and died. So I put my vote that it is the crappy Maxtor Drive that is in the unit. I have had so many Maxtors die in computer systems that I will never buy one again.

One thing I don't understand. Why if these drives are crap do the few companies that sell the replacement drives use the same drive? Wouldn't you think that after knowing that these drives suck that you would want to be better than DTV and use a better drive?


----------



## tivoupgrade

jpeckinp said:


> I never keep shows. After I watch them I would delete them and my HD lasted 7 months and died. So I put my vote that it is the crappy Maxtor Drive that is in the unit. I have had so many Maxtors die in computer systems that I will never buy one again.
> 
> One thing I don't understand. Why if these drives are crap do the few companies that sell the replacement drives use the same drive? Wouldn't you think that after knowing that these drives suck that you would want to be better than DTV and use a better drive?


Actually, most of the HR10-250 units come with Western Digital drives, not Maxtor drives.

With that said, the 'superiority' of any of these manufacturer's drives: Samsung, Western Digital, Maxtor, Seagate tends to be a religious issue more than anything else. Our experience has been that Samsungs and Seagates have been overall, more reliable than Western Digitals and Maxtors; they've all been good, however and no brand has been fundamentally superior. I do have to say that over time, I've developed a mistrust of the Western Digital drives, but I think the issue we ran into a few years ago with them was a quality control issue that has since been remedied.

You can base your opinions on your own experiences, of course; naturally, we've had the benefit of dealing with these drives, by the thousands, for this particular type of application - so we base ours on our own experiences - we have no gripes with Maxtor drives other than the questionable Marketing practice of claiming a "Quickview" drive to be superior for TiVo-usage than any other drive. The test of time has proven that this is not the case, not that this hasn't been obvious from the start. (note QV drives aren't inferior for TiVo-use, either).

What we have seen, from time to time, are factory WD drives in HR10-250 units show up as bad when we initially test them (even in brand new units) which seems to be more of a quality control issue (perhaps even mishandling by the plant assembling the units) more than anything else.


----------



## CDTV

Hey, (couldn't find answer in search engine)
I'm ready to hook-up my outside tv & would like to run it off my HD-tivo (inside-unit) as a second outside-tv. What's best way to do this? I've got a component-out available but thought I remembered you can't have 2 outputs that'd work on this thing(I'm using dvi-out on primary tv) -is this right? I'd never use both inside & outside at the same time...any help would be appreciated...


----------



## HiHoStevo

Can I have both HDMI & Component active at the same time? 

I would like to send 720p out over HDMI for HDTV viewing and then when I watch the SD SciFi channel switch to component in on my projector... this will allow the reciever to upconvert the selected 480i output (use 4-way to change from 720p to 480i) through the recievers Faroudja chip with DCDI which I think will provide a "better" SD image than the one the HD-Tivo provides just leaving it set on 720p.............

Thanks


----------



## feldon23

Unfortunately that is not possible. Nor is it possible to improve the picture "quality" (I use the term laughably) that DirecTV has been shoving down our throats lately.


----------



## HiHoStevo

feldon23 said:


> Unfortunately that is not possible. Nor is it possible to improve the picture "quality" (I use the term laughably) that DirecTV has been shoving down our throats lately.


Feldon.........

You do not think that setting the output for SD at 480i and running it through a Faroudja to de-interlace it to 480p with it's DCDI process will provide any better image than the HD-Tivo??

Is the problem having both Component and HDMI hooked up at the same time?

Would the Tivo know both were connected if the Component output was not "active" through the receiver?... or is it just having the plugs physically installed the turns off one or the other?


----------



## feldon23

I don't even own any HD equipment. I just write FAQs about it.  Apparently it's possible to read your way to this knowledge. 

Actually I'm not sure if Component and HDMI are active at the same time. I shouldn't have sounded so certain.


----------



## HiHoStevo

Okay thanks..... more experimentation I guess.........


----------



## maharg18

Once you plug HDMI in, it disables the component output.


----------



## joetoronto

for what it's worth, it _does_ output compnent and s-video together.

i tried it last weekend.

i don't know if it would output HDMI and s-video together, i refuse to even _try_ the HDMI connection, but i'd guess it would.


----------



## newsposter

yes i have hdmi going to my TV and S vid going to my dvd burner (2nd hdtivo is on component and S vid because my tv only has one hdmi). Of course you gotta kick down to 480i record a dvd though  But both will be output at the same time.



feldon23 said:


> I don't even own any HD equipment. I just write FAQs about it.  Apparently it's possible to read your way to this knowledge.
> .


imagine what more you could add if you bought some


----------



## tall1

joetoronto said:


> for what it's worth, it _does_ output compnent and s-video together.
> 
> i tried it last weekend.
> 
> i don't know if it would output HDMI and s-video together, i refuse to even _try_ the HDMI connection, but i'd guess it would.


Why? They stopped shipping the HR10 with bad HDMI ("HUGHES HDMI CARD 1034054") cards long ago. I've been using HDMI on both HR10s with no problems. The HDMI cards marked 1035849 have had no problems. Unless you have one of the first batch of HDTivos, HDMI should work just fine.


----------



## joetoronto

tall1 said:


> Why? They stopped shipping the HR10 with bad HDMI ("HUGHES HDMI CARD 1034054") cards long ago. I've been using HDMI on both HR10s with no problems. The HDMI cards marked 1035849 have had no problems. Unless you have one of the first batch of HDTivos, HDMI should work just fine.


god knows what i have, tall1, not me.

remember, if anything goes wrong with my directv hardware, i'm screwed.

there's no such thing as a directv warranty when you live in canada.


----------



## noahsd

I apologize in advance for asking this question which I'm sure has been discussed (although I couldn't find the appropriate thread):

D* just introduced local HD in San Diego yesterday (Yippee). Unfortunately, I just found out that the price for getting this (aside from the $99 upgrade) is to give up TIVO. I have an HR10 and have not had a problem. OTA is not an option where I live, so I've had to put up with SD on most channels. The service rep told me they expect an HD-DVR to be available in mid-summer. My question is: Does anyone know or have a guess whether their DVR will be "TIVO-like"? By this I mean, will it be able to record by title rather than strictly by time and channel. Thanks!


----------



## HiHoStevo

maharg18 said:


> Once you plug HDMI in, it disables the component output.


Rats..........

I was thinking about buying the JVC 702B receiver. I does HDMI switching and it de-interlaces (Faroudja DCDI chip) all the analog 480i signals and transcodes them out over the HDMI out.

The reason I am wondering about this is that I was thinking the DCDI'd 480i SDTV signal might look better from the Faroudja chip than it does from whatever the HD-Tivo is using to upconvert 480i to 720p when I have 720p selected as my output resolution.

I suppose a work-a-round would be to connect the HDMI and S-video from the Tivo to the reciever and then switch the tivo to 480i whenever watching SD. I presume I would have to make a change in the receiver selection also, but I am not familliar enough with the JVC to know exactly at this point... although I do know it will output the signal over HDMI even though it comes in on S-video...

Also... I have not seen anyone mention whether or not the HD-Tivo output's audio over it's HDMI cable...??

Sorry for the email Tall1, for some reason I was not getting notified that folks had responded to this thread...... go figure!


----------



## Anubys

noahsd said:


> I apologize in advance for asking this question which I'm sure has been discussed (although I couldn't find the appropriate thread):
> 
> D* just introduced local HD in San Diego yesterday (Yippee). Unfortunately, I just found out that the price for getting this (aside from the $99 upgrade) is to give up TIVO. I have an HR10 and have not had a problem. OTA is not an option where I live, so I've had to put up with SD on most channels. The service rep told me they expect an HD-DVR to be available in mid-summer. My question is: Does anyone know or have a guess whether their DVR will be "TIVO-like"? By this I mean, will it be able to record by title rather than strictly by time and channel. Thanks!


yes, all indications are that it will be "tivo-like"...however, based on experience, I find the promise of a mid-summer rollout to be hard to believe...

heck, I'll be happy if I see it in Summer, 2007!


----------



## newsposter

Anubys said:


> yes, all indications are that it will be "tivo-like"...however, based on experience, I find the promise of a mid-summer rollout to be hard to believe...
> 
> heck, I'll be happy if I see it in Summer, 2007!


r15 = tivo like? I only know what i read on the forum but I think if it was tivo like you wouldnt hear the old time tivoers complaining


----------



## Anubys

newsposter said:


> r15 = tivo like? I only know what i read on the forum but I think if it was tivo like you wouldnt hear the old time tivoers complaining


I thought he was talking about the H20, something I know we're not supposed to talk about on this forum...


----------



## Rottluver

noahsd said:


> I apologize in advance for asking this question which I'm sure has been discussed (although I couldn't find the appropriate thread):
> 
> D* just introduced local HD in San Diego yesterday (Yippee). Unfortunately, I just found out that the price for getting this (aside from the $99 upgrade) is to give up TIVO. I have an HR10 and have not had a problem. OTA is not an option where I live, so I've had to put up with SD on most channels. The service rep told me they expect an HD-DVR to be available in mid-summer. My question is: Does anyone know or have a guess whether their DVR will be "TIVO-like"? By this I mean, will it be able to record by title rather than strictly by time and channel. Thanks!


I ran into that dilemma when I moved up here to Seattle last summer. I decided to keep my SD Tivo boxes (I have 3) and wait until my 60" big screen poops out (and then I will buy an HD TV) and wait for DTV to get their stuff working and check out their offerings (and others) in the HD-DVR arena. I don't "need" HD and I don't WANT another antenna to get local HD broadcasts.......besides, I learned a looong time ago to not buy "new" stuff right away so that it gets a chance to get the kinks worked out. I HATE being a guinea pig.


----------



## newsposter

Anubys said:


> I thought he was talking about the H20, something I know we're not supposed to talk about on this forum...


well at least we are both unsure 

I know zip about the H20..if it's tivo like..cool, that means the h20 250 should be wonderful as well...too many boxes to keep up on the lingo here


----------



## noahsd

newsposter said:


> well at least we are both unsure
> 
> I know zip about the H20..if it's tivo like..cool, that means the h20 250 should be wonderful as well...too many boxes to keep up on the lingo here


So can I assume that D* has not disclosed any details or description of their promised HD-DVR?


----------



## newsposter

it's a hot topic here if you do a search or thumb through the thread titles. Anywhere between summer and early next year is posted on this forum as a release date. As far as details, I wont pretend to know anything other than I guarantee it wont have the familiar tivo interface that the HDtivo and its friends now have.


----------



## Brillian1080p

Feldon23, I am curious. If you don't own any high definition equipment, how can you be so sure that video processing will not improve picture quality?

I have been playing around with analog CRT projectors and processors by way of home theater PC and outboard processors for about 4 years. I would like to correct your statement.

Standard definition video can be improved to a large degree. The amount of improvement depends on your display quality and processor quality.

I do not have the time at the moment, but I can provide details an examples if there is interest. There are many others who could do the same.

I'm also not interested in arguing or fighting about it, but I wonder how many readers will actually believe your statement.

Anyone interested in a different view on this topic can visit the video processing section of other forums. There you can read posts from quite a few people who actually have the equipment and have made improvements to both standard and high definition video.

Please don't take offense, your just flat out wrong in this instance.


----------



## golf ace

Hi there 
I asked this on a deferent site but thought I would give it a try here. If I have cable and D* can I put the "cable" in the OTA input on an hr10-250. I would like to be able to tivo my hd locals. 
thanks


----------



## feldon23

golf ace said:


> Hi there
> I asked this on a deferent site but thought I would give it a try here. If I have cable and D* can I put the "cable" in the OTA input on an hr10-250. I would like to be able to tivo my hd locals.
> thanks


You can wish and want and hope but it's not going to work.


----------



## pjspring

I hope no one has asked this question before and I've missed it.

I currently own two Series 2 TiVo boxes, both linked into my home network, that I use extensively for playing music, playing photo slideshows, transferring video between TiVos and to the PCs for DVD authoring, etc, etc.

Later this year I plan on upgrading to HDTV and will buy a Series 3 TiVo to complement it.

Does anyone know whether you will be able to transfer video between the Series 3 and Series 2 boxes (and vice versa). I know you will not get HD, but will they be compatible at least?

Thanks.


----------



## mroe

I am very interested in upgrading to HD Tivo, but would like to know when DTV is going to to start having HD locals on the system with out having to use an additional "air" antenna. Does anyone know when that's going to happen?


----------



## Iceblade

mroe,

It's based on the particular TV market that you currently reside in. I believe they have rolled out locals to the top 40? markets at this point in time. If you live in the rural backwoods of Arkansas or something, I wouldn't hold my breath. If you live close to a MAJOR metropolitan city, then you most likely will be converted in the next year to two years. Please understand, "HD locals" does not imply ALL of the digital locals that you could possibly pull in with an OTA antenna. It's only the "Big Four" or "Big Five" for now... and sometimes not even that. I believe CBS is still having fits with D* and so many markets aren't even seeing CBS.

Hope that helps.

Regs,
Jeff


----------



## Rottluver

When I moved up to Seattle from L.A. last summer, D* told me I needed that extra antenna for HD.........don't know if that is still the case or not, haven't looked into it since then. :shrug:


----------



## baatz

mroe said:


> I am very interested in upgrading to HD Tivo, but would like to know when DTV is going to to start having HD locals on the system with out having to use an additional "air" antenna. Does anyone know when that's going to happen?


I too would LOVE to be able to TiVo my HD signals from the D* Mpeg4 local channels... But, as far as I know, UNFORTUNATELY, there are no plans for a TiVo that will handle Mpeg4, such as those signals used by D* for the local HD signals? The TiVo/D* HD10-250 does OTA HD, but not Mpeg4???

The only thing that I have heard up til now is that D* will have a non-TiVo DVR for use with Mpeg4 signals by sometime "soon". Maybe this summer? Yeck...

It's my impression that D* has opted to do their own DVRs and not use TiVo on future receivers? I truly hate to hear that.

I currently receive the Big Four networks from Tampa Florida via D* on the H20-100 receiver. I've kept my SD DirecTiVos but as you probably know, they sadly don't do HD...  <deep sigh>


----------



## bythecshore

I have Comcast (CT) cable, no box, with a TiVo series 2. I want to get a wide-screen HD TV which means upgrading the cable and especially TiVo, which is all I watch.

Is TiVo the answer - or the supplied Comcast DVR (is that TiVo)? 

I imagine there's a thread somewhere here where this is discussed. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## HiHoStevo

The DVR's offered by Comcast are NOT Tivo's.

They do function, but are not using Tivo software and many Tivo folks would find them a "bit" primitive. However, as I said they do work.

I believe Comcast is using the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR.


----------



## bythecshore

You mention that the Comcast DVR is not as good as the TiVo... any particilar features missing, for example, can you watch one (recorded) show while recording another? 

What are the other downsides?


----------



## Kunzorama

Lots of Comcast customers who opt for PVR through Comcast get the Motorola 6412. It's not Tivo, but it is HD and does performs the basics. Because of Comcast's investment relationship with Tivo, there's a good chance that Comcast will actually be offering Tivo service through the boxes they supply sometime in the not too distant future. (It's conceivable that they could even push a software upgrade out to existing STBs, but that seems unlikely to me.)

There a few good threads on this topic at avsforum (com), including one titled "Official Comcast 6412 w/ iGuide Discussion". I'd suggest you visit them and take a look. (I can't post a URL yet.)



bythecshore said:


> I have Comcast (CT) cable, no box, with a TiVo series 2. I want to get a wide-screen HD TV which means upgrading the cable and especially TiVo, which is all I watch.
> 
> Is TiVo the answer - or the supplied Comcast DVR (is that TiVo)?
> 
> I imagine there's a thread somewhere here where this is discussed. Can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


----------



## HiHoStevo

bythecshore said:


> You mention that the Comcast DVR is not as good as the TiVo... any particilar features missing, for example, can you watch one (recorded) show while recording another?
> 
> What are the other downsides?


Most DVR's will do 85 - 90% of what most people would want. They time shift, they pause, they rewind, you can program which shows you want to record.

The two giants in the DVR world are Tivo and ReplayTV. Tivo rose to pre-eminence due to its tie-in with DirecTV. There are vociferous advocates for both platforms and I do not wish to start that discussion... I currently own and have owned both Replay and Tivo units and love them both. I mostly use Tivo now because I wanted HD and Replay never came out with an HD unit to my knowledge. I also appreciate having the STB and DVR in the same box. I have always felt the quality of the recording is better this way as there are fewer analog to digital conversions taking place.

Now to actually answer your question... 

What Replay and Tivo do that most of the other DVR's do not do is software related.... one in prioritizing which shows are more important to record and secondly in that Replay and Tivo are what is called "show-based" recording devices where most other DVR's are simply digital versions of a VCR.... you tell it what channel you want at what time and that is what gets recorded... it may seem to be show-based because you are clicking on the name of a show to record, but under the makeup the recorder is simply making a notation to record a specific channel from time A to time B.

Show based recordings can follow the show if it is moved or pre-empted... (most of the time) nothing is fool-proof!


----------



## cheer

Kunzorama said:


> Because of Comcast's investment relationship with Tivo, there's a good chance that Comcast will actually be offering Tivo service through the boxes they supply sometime in the not too distant future. (It's conceivable that they could even push a software upgrade out to existing STBs, but that seems unlikely to me.)


In a conference call with investors, that's exactly what Tivo said they'd be doing (pushing a software upgrade out to existing STBs).

--chris


----------



## Delegator

bythecshore said:


> You mention that the Comcast DVR is not as good as the TiVo... any particilar features missing, for example, can you watch one (recorded) show while recording another?
> 
> What are the other downsides?


TiVo's advantage is the UI and functionality. Some of the things I have seen with my Scientific Atlanta (Adelphia) box, or a friend's Motorola (Comcast) box, include:

Scientific Atlanta box from Adelphia:
- only keeps 7 days of program guide, versus 14 for TiVo
- only lets you search for shows on a particular day, and only by the first letter of the show name, as opposed to the first n letters (however many you want to put in) for TiVo
- allows broad theme searches, with no sub-themes, no actor searches, etc
- if you start watching a show that is being recorded, and you come in during the middle of the show, you have to rewind to the beginning. There is no option to start playing a currently-being-recorded show from the beginning
- if you are watching a show that is currently being recorded, the DVR will skip you back to the beginning when the show ends in real time. So, if you were (for example) halfway through, you'll have to fast-forward to that point to pick up where you left off
- is very unreliable when you try to record multiple episodes of a show. The only options are "all episodes on this channel in this time slot" and "all episodes on this channel in any time slot". The idea of "this time slot" seems to not work at all ( sometimes it picks up the show in other time slots, and sometimes a 5-minute difference means you will miss a showing)
- has no concept of show IDs, first run versus repeats, etc.
- has no ability to recommend shows based on viewing habits
- shows only 5-6 channels at a time in the program guide

Motorola box from Comcast:
- Will turn itself on in order to record. That's great, except that, when it does this, it will turn itself off when the recording is completed. So, if the DVR had turned itself on to record, and you decide to watch something else on the other tuner, you will randomly have the DVR turn itself off when the show you are recording (but not watching) is finished.
- has similar shortcomings to the SA box when it comes to season passes, folowing shows that air at different times, and so on.

I obviously have more experience with the SA box. I hope this shows how much better the TiVo software is. I can't wait for the series 3 to make my HD DVR obsolete.


----------



## Rottluver

Delegator said:


> TiVo's advantage is the UI and functionality. Some of the things I have seen with my Scientific Atlanta (Adelphia) box, or a friend's Motorola (Comcast) box, include:
> 
> Scientific Atlanta box from Adelphia:
> - only keeps 7 days of program guide, versus 14 for TiVo
> - only lets you search for shows on a particular day, and only by the first letter of the show name, as opposed to the first n letters (however many you want to put in) for TiVo
> - allows broad theme searches, with no sub-themes, no actor searches, etc
> - if you start watching a show that is being recorded, and you come in during the middle of the show, you have to rewind to the beginning. There is no option to start playing a currently-being-recorded show from the beginning
> - if you are watching a show that is currently being recorded, the DVR will skip you back to the beginning when the show ends in real time. So, if you were (for example) halfway through, you'll have to fast-forward to that point to pick up where you left off
> - is very unreliable when you try to record multiple episodes of a show. The only options are "all episodes on this channel in this time slot" and "all episodes on this channel in any time slot". The idea of "this time slot" seems to not work at all ( sometimes it picks up the show in other time slots, and sometimes a 5-minute difference means you will miss a showing)
> - has no concept of show IDs, first run versus repeats, etc.
> - has no ability to recommend shows based on viewing habits
> - shows only 5-6 channels at a time in the program guide
> 
> Motorola box from Comcast:
> - Will turn itself on in order to record. That's great, except that, when it does this, it will turn itself off when the recording is completed. So, if the DVR had turned itself on to record, and you decide to watch something else on the other tuner, you will randomly have the DVR turn itself off when the show you are recording (but not watching) is finished.
> - has similar shortcomings to the SA box when it comes to season passes, folowing shows that air at different times, and so on.
> 
> I obviously have more experience with the SA box. I hope this shows how much better the TiVo software is. I can't wait for the series 3 to make my HD DVR obsolete.


All your post did was make me grateful that my 3 Series ONE Tivos (DirecTV) are all fully functional and in great shape (knock on wood) and makes me never ever want to use anything but them


----------



## stayton

I recentlly bought an HDTV and moved into Time Warner's area. Because my TiVo can't do HD, I tried out the Time Warner DVR - but kept my TiVo going with my second television.

Someone earlier said that most DVR's can do 85-90% of what TiVo can do, and went on to discuss it quite well. However, there's one thing missing, I think.

My Time Warner DVR is only as smart as Time Warner apparently. And that's not too good. So its guide is often way off. For instance, when the NBA game is scheduled to bump local programming on our CBS affiliate (with several days warning), Time Warner DVR doesn't know it. But TiVo does!

This type of thing happens a lot, and not just with sports programming. 

Another thing: when you tell the TW DVR to record all new episodes, it doesn't! If there are back to back episodes, it only records the first one. Stupid!

Also, tonight was the Alias finale, and my Time Warner DVR pooped out after 1 hr minutes. But luckily my TiVo in second bedroom recorded the entire 2 hours. Can you imagine missing the last 15 minutes of a 5 year series?

So can someone please tell me when I can get HDTV via TiVo - and I will RUN, not walk, to it! (PS - I'm no techie, but I am desperate to have my TiVo and HD too!)


----------



## HiHoStevo

The only way currently is with DirecTV and an HR10-250 HD-Tivo.... (which why I have two of the silly things)


----------



## Anubys

Delegator said:


> TiVo's advantage is the UI and functionality. Some of the things I have seen with my Scientific Atlanta (Adelphia) box, or a friend's Motorola (Comcast) box, include:
> 
> Scientific Atlanta box from Adelphia:
> - only keeps 7 days of program guide, versus 14 for TiVo
> - only lets you search for shows on a particular day, and only by the first letter of the show name, as opposed to the first n letters (however many you want to put in) for TiVo
> - allows broad theme searches, with no sub-themes, no actor searches, etc
> - if you start watching a show that is being recorded, and you come in during the middle of the show, you have to rewind to the beginning. There is no option to start playing a currently-being-recorded show from the beginning
> - if you are watching a show that is currently being recorded, the DVR will skip you back to the beginning when the show ends in real time. So, if you were (for example) halfway through, you'll have to fast-forward to that point to pick up where you left off
> - is very unreliable when you try to record multiple episodes of a show. The only options are "all episodes on this channel in this time slot" and "all episodes on this channel in any time slot". The idea of "this time slot" seems to not work at all ( sometimes it picks up the show in other time slots, and sometimes a 5-minute difference means you will miss a showing)
> - has no concept of show IDs, first run versus repeats, etc.
> - has no ability to recommend shows based on viewing habits
> - shows only 5-6 channels at a time in the program guide
> 
> Motorola box from Comcast:
> - Will turn itself on in order to record. That's great, except that, when it does this, it will turn itself off when the recording is completed. So, if the DVR had turned itself on to record, and you decide to watch something else on the other tuner, you will randomly have the DVR turn itself off when the show you are recording (but not watching) is finished.
> - has similar shortcomings to the SA box when it comes to season passes, folowing shows that air at different times, and so on.
> 
> I obviously have more experience with the SA box. I hope this shows how much better the TiVo software is. I can't wait for the series 3 to make my HD DVR obsolete.


wow...I had no idea...these are MAJOR shortcomings in my book and make the DVR useless...


----------



## newsposter

stayton, go to newegg and get a HDtivo for 400 bucks. You wont be sorry (unless you can't get OTA). of course it depends on the channels you watch, that's the most important decision in getting the HDtivo.


----------



## cheer

newsposter said:


> stayton, go to newegg and get a HDtivo for 400 bucks. You wont be sorry (unless you can't get OTA). of course it depends on the channels you watch, that's the most important decision in getting the HDtivo.


That won't do him any good unless he switches to DirecTV...

--chris


----------



## stayton

OK, so if I switch to DirectTV, I can have a TiVo box that records HD?


----------



## llogan

Yup, 

HBO, Showtime, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, Discovery and any channels that you can receive with an over-the-air (OTA) antenna - those would be your 'local' channels (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS, etc.)

That's what we're doing at my house and at my girlfriend's until DirecTV comes out with their own high definition DVR that handles mpeg4.


----------



## stayton

llogan said:


> Yup,
> 
> HBO, Showtime, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN, Discovery and any channels that you can receive with an over-the-air (OTA) antenna - those would be your 'local' channels (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS, etc.)
> 
> That's what we're doing at my house and at my girlfriend's until DirecTV comes out with their own high definition DVR that handles mpeg4.


Thanks - I'm fairly new except that I've had a TiVo since 2004 and love it. Am really shell-shocked by how poor the information is that guides the Time Warner DVR.

Question about the over the air antena for HD. Does it input to the TiVo box along with the cable?


----------



## newsposter

stayton said:


> Thanks - I'm fairly new except that I've had a TiVo since 2004 and love it. Am really shell-shocked by how poor the information is that guides the Time Warner DVR.
> 
> Question about the over the air antena for HD. Does it input to the TiVo box along with the cable?


the cable? you mean directv right? There are inputs for one OTA (split internally so you can record 2 shows) and there are 2 sat. inputs. So you can record 1 sat/1ota, or 2 sats or 2 ota at once, all while watching a prerecorded program.

to be clear, hdtivo only works with directv. And if you aren't able to get OTA, you'll be disappointed, assuming you watch the networks of course.

Also note that the Hd stuff like HDnet will currently work with the HDtivo just fine. However, at SOME point (anywhere from months to years but there are other threads for those arguments how long), HD will very likely be all mpeg4 and you will NOT be able to record HD via satellite. Since no one actually knows when this will take place, it's a calculated risk to enter the market at this time.

SD will definitely be mpeg2 for a very long time so you would always have that plus OTA HD of course. I'm happy with that but everyone is different


----------



## stayton

newsposter said:


> the cable? you mean directv right? There are inputs for one OTA (split internally so you can record 2 shows) and there are 2 sat. inputs. So you can record 1 sat/1ota, or 2 sats or 2 ota at once, all while watching a prerecorded program.
> 
> to be clear, hdtivo only works with directv. And if you aren't able to get OTA, you'll be disappointed, assuming you watch the networks of course.
> 
> Also note that the Hd stuff like HDnet will currently work with the HDtivo just fine. However, at SOME point (anywhere from months to years but there are other threads for those arguments how long), HD will very likely be all mpeg4 and you will NOT be able to record HD via satellite. Since no one actually knows when this will take place, it's a calculated risk to enter the market at this time.
> 
> SD will definitely be mpeg2 for a very long time so you would always have that plus OTA HD of course. I'm happy with that but everyone is different


YOU ARE SO KIND - THAT HELPS A LOT


----------



## Anubys

one more thing: you'll only get HBO HD and Showtime HD if you subscribe to those channels...


----------



## MrSpiff

As usual, this high tech stuff is dizzying to those who don't keep up, like me.

I currently have two SD DirecTivos (one series 1 and one series 2). I covet them almost as much as my children. I don't quite know how I could go without the functionality of Tivo. 

Recently I've been seeing more and more HD at other people's houses, and I'm finally ready to jump in (too bad the wife doesn't agree). I have a pretty old 50" mitsubishi, but it's HD ready. I called D* a couple days ago and it seems I can get HD locals in my area thru the dish. This is really what I've been waiting for. I really dislike the idea of an OTA antenna. The lady told me all I had to do was get an HD box and an upgraded dish and I'd be good to go. And the price of the boxes has come down to reasonable levels. I thought I was good to go as soon as I can weasel a few hundred bucks out of the family budget. Until I came here that is.

I think I read in the FAQ that if I bought an HD Tivo today, it would possibly be obsolete and unable to receive locals in a year or so. Something about MPEG-4. Is that true? 

Bottom line: Should I jump in to HD thru Directv right now or wait some more? If I wait, will the Tivo interface be lost forever for HD?


----------



## vtfan99

MrSpiff said:


> ...
> I think I read in the FAQ that if I bought an HD Tivo today, it would possibly be obsolete and unable to receive locals in a year or so. Something about MPEG-4. Is that true?
> 
> Bottom line: Should I jump in to HD thru Directv right now or wait some more? If I wait, will the Tivo interface be lost forever for HD?


The HD Tivo will not receive HD locals from D*....not now...not ever. The only HD locals the HD Tivo will pick up will be from OTA, so you must have the antenna. If you don't want an HD Tivo, there is a plain HD box (no DVR yet) that will pick up the HD locals from D*. The HD DVR (non-Tivo) that will pick up the HD locals is supposed to be released this summer....but I think that date has already been pushed back, so who knows.

If you want a Tivo box that records in HD, your only choice is D*...and you don't get the locals from the dish. Yep...it sucks....if only it were a perfect world.


----------



## cheer

Unless you live in NYC or LA, the HD Tivo cannot receive HD locals from DirecTV _now_. The HD locals are being broadcast using MPEG4 encoding, and the HD Tivo does not support it.

DirecTV will be coming out with an MPEG4-capable DVR, but it will not be Tivo.


----------



## MrSpiff

vtfan99 said:


> The HD Tivo will not receive HD locals from D*....not now...not ever. The only HD locals the HD Tivo will pick up will be from OTA, so you must have the antenna. If you don't want an HD Tivo, there is a plain HD box (no DVR yet) that will pick up the HD locals from D*. The HD DVR (non-Tivo) that will pick up the HD locals is supposed to be released this summer....but I think that date has already been pushed back, so who knows.
> 
> If you want a Tivo box that records in HD, your only choice is D*...and you don't get the locals from the dish. Yep...it sucks....if only it were a perfect world.


I asked that specific question when I called D* and they said yes, that I can get the HD locals thru the dish. Is this a case of moronic D* customer service?


----------



## newsposter

LA and NY DO have mpeg2 in HD...if you are in CA you may be able to get them..i dont know about the criteria though. I'm guessing if you are in LA you can get LA  

search in the HDtivo forum for better answers as there are rumors of mpeg2 being turned off. I know nothing!


----------



## slocko

getting your locals through on ota antenna is not terrible. Direct will even give you the antenna and install it. there are even advantages. with your hd locals coming from the OTA, you won't be subject to any compression from Direct. in the future when you get a 2nd hd tv, the hd-tivo can make a great backup receiver, even if the only thing it can receive are ota channels.

what you have to decide is if currently there are enough hd channels that you would be able to receive through the hd-tivo that would justify the cost of buying or leasing the unit.

for me there is.



MrSpiff said:


> As usual, this high tech stuff is dizzying to those who don't keep up, like me.
> 
> I currently have two SD DirecTivos (one series 1 and one series 2). I covet them almost as much as my children. I don't quite know how I could go without the functionality of Tivo.
> 
> Recently I've been seeing more and more HD at other people's houses, and I'm finally ready to jump in (too bad the wife doesn't agree). I have a pretty old 50" mitsubishi, but it's HD ready. I called D* a couple days ago and it seems I can get HD locals in my area thru the dish. This is really what I've been waiting for. I really dislike the idea of an OTA antenna. The lady told me all I had to do was get an HD box and an upgraded dish and I'd be good to go. And the price of the boxes has come down to reasonable levels. I thought I was good to go as soon as I can weasel a few hundred bucks out of the family budget. Until I came here that is.
> 
> I think I read in the FAQ that if I bought an HD Tivo today, it would possibly be obsolete and unable to receive locals in a year or so. Something about MPEG-4. Is that true?
> 
> Bottom line: Should I jump in to HD thru Directv right now or wait some more? If I wait, will the Tivo interface be lost forever for HD?


----------



## vtfan99

Misinformed customer service.....moronic customer service...take your pick. It does get tricky so maybe we should give them some credit.

1. You can get HD locals from the dish now (MPEG 2) if you live in LA or NYC (as cheer mentioned above).

2. If you apply to number 1, then the HD Tivo (Model HR10-250) currently offered via D* will allow you to record the HD locals

3. If you don't apply to number one, then the only way currently to record HD locals with D* is via an OTA and the HR10-250.

4. When the new HD DVR comes out in the future, you will be able to record HD locals from the dish, but this box will not a Tivo box.

See...clear as mud


----------



## MrSpiff

Yes, I am lucky enough to be in the LA area. In this case, I suppose it's a good thing. Property values are another. :up: 

So, my original question remains. If I buy this wonderful HD Tivo box, I would be in HD Tivo heaven until DirecTv changes something and turns it into a paperweight? Seems somewhat criminal to sell a machine that becomes useless in a year.

I will try to scour the rest of the threads.


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## slocko

one more thing, conventional wisdom is the SD channels will continue being mpeg2 for the foreseeable future. so again, this will make a great 2nd receiver down the road.


----------



## newsposter

slocko said:


> one more thing, conventional wisdom is the SD channels will continue being mpeg2 for the foreseeable future. so again, this will make a great 2nd receiver down the road.


glad you brought it up. I get tired of hearing others say doorstop. Unless you truly dont have 3+ way conflicts (in that case i can say you dont need 4 tuners), an extra SD plus OTA box is indeed very nice


----------



## joetoronto

MrSpiff said:


> I currently have two SD DirecTivos (one series 1 and one series 2). I covet them almost as much as my children.


lol, you know what they say about family, Spiff.

you can't chose your family but you _can_ chose your recorder.

try the antenna, it works great for me.


----------



## cheer

MrSpiff said:


> Yes, I am lucky enough to be in the LA area. In this case, I suppose it's a good thing. Property values are another. :up:
> 
> So, my original question remains. If I buy this wonderful HD Tivo box, I would be in HD Tivo heaven until DirecTv changes something and turns it into a paperweight? Seems somewhat criminal to sell a machine that becomes useless in a year.
> 
> I will try to scour the rest of the threads.


Unlikely that the box will be useless in a year, or even three.

Here are the facts, as we know them:

National HD channels and _all_ SD channels are currently in MPEG2
Local HD channels in all markets except NYC and LA are in MPEG4
DirecTV has launched multiple satellites to expand their MPEG4 offerings
The only MPEG4 channels currently announced are the HD locals
Now, here's what I think is reasonable to assume:

Once the HD locals rollout completes, DirecTV will likely start adding national HD channels in MPEG4
Eventually, DirecTV may begin migrating existing MPEG2 HD stuff to MPEG4 (national channels, the NFL stuff, etc.)
It is unlikely that SD channels will migrate to MPEG4; if they do, it will be many years before they start
It's probably going to be over a year before the MPEG4 HD locals rollout finishes. So I'd guess the HR10-250 has at least a couple of years of life; longer for SD and OTA.


----------



## cheer

slocko said:


> getting your locals through on ota antenna is not terrible. Direct will even give you the antenna and install it. there are even advantages. with your hd locals coming from the OTA, you won't be subject to any compression from Direct.


Just a quick note -- the antenna D* supplies is junk. It may work in really favorite circumstances, but...if you really want to do OTA reception, get thee to antennaweb.org.

And yes, your locals in HD will never look better than via OTA.


----------



## slocko

D* gave me one of those flat round antennas and here north of Tampa it works very well. It even looks good, not like the traditional aerial antennas. I get all the hd locals with no reception problems.


----------



## joetoronto

slocko said:


> D* gave me one of those flat round antennas and here north of Tampa it works very well. It even looks good, not like the traditional aerial antennas. I get all the hd locals with no reception problems.


your fortunate you don't need anything better, slocko.

allot of people have said what cheer just said, they aren't very good.


----------



## slocko

i was surprised as well. when i lived in Central Jersey, i tried so many different antennas and none could get me all the hd channels without rotating it one way or another.

now i get abc, cbs, nbc, wb, upn, fox, pbs with no problems.

but the point is, that even if the antenna they give you doesn't work, at least all the cabling will be done. then you can replace it with whatever works in your area. for my install the guy multiplex all the signals to 3 different locations. he did a great job.


----------



## baatz

slocko said:


> "...now i get abc, cbs, nbc, wb, upn, fox, pbs with no problems..."
> 
> "...he did a great job."


It's guys like you that ruin it for everyone else... You suck all the luck out of the ether! 

Did you *plan* where to live based upon HD signal coverage? And, you mean they didn't just cut a big hole in your roof and stick the antenna out of it? 

I've never bought a lotto ticket --- but if I were you I would immediately go buy one. No need to buy more than one, you shouldn't need it. 

Or, maybe it's just that I'm UNLUCKY ?


----------



## slocko

I know what you mean. Until people here told me that was a crappy antenna, I thought maybe I hadn't been using the right one.

I do feel blessed because I am in HD-Heaven!


----------



## newsposter

cheer said:


> [*]The only MPEG4 channels currently announced are the HD locals


Side note for those not in the know: only the big 4 are mpeg4 on directv. If you want pbs, cw upn wb or whatever the local channel of the week is, sorry. Out of luck.

Yes some people will watch CW!


----------



## slocko

good point. if you are a Smallville fan or Everybody Hates Chris fan, you have no choice but OTA.


----------



## phox_mulder

newsposter said:


> Side note for those not in the know: only the big 4 are mpeg4 on directv. If you want pbs, cw upn wb or whatever the local channel of the week is, sorry. Out of luck.
> 
> Yes some people will watch CW!


And you only get the main subchannel of the affiliates of the big 4.

Yes, that will be the main HD channel, but in many markets there is pretty good stuff on the other subchannels, and you'll only be able to see it with an antenna.

phox


----------



## newsposter

also dont forget super nbc weather megs doppler storm tracker chaser !


----------



## joetoronto

newsposter said:


> also dont forget super nbc weather megs doppler storm tracker chaser !


lol, this reminds me of an "NBC weather plus" station from rochester on sub channel 2-2 that i get OTA.

i've never seen such a fanatical weather forecast.


----------



## cheer

A lot of the subchannels are, well, a waste...but some are not. And some are truly unique.

For example, I am told that the Champaign IL Fox affiliate, during NFL games, uses a subchannel to broadcast the game in HD...with _no_ announcers, just stadium audio/noise.

Sure wish my Fox affiliate did that! What a unique way to watch a game -- no prattle!


----------



## baatz

cheer said:


> A lot of the subchannels are, well, a waste...but some are not. And some are truly unique.
> 
> For example, I am told that the Champaign IL Fox affiliate, during NFL games, uses a subchannel to broadcast the game in HD...with _no_ announcers, just stadium audio/noise.
> 
> Sure wish my Fox affiliate did that! What a unique way to watch a game -- no prattle!


Never having had the "luxury" of OTA reception --- I didn't even realize there were such things as multiple subchannels from a station with varying content...

Until now... 

Sounds cool. No jibber jabber? Wow... Almost makes me want to move to Champaign. Or maybe drink a lot of champagne to forget that I don't have a feed like that.


----------



## Anubys

cheer said:


> I am told that the Champaign IL Fox affiliate, during NFL games, uses a subchannel to broadcast the game in HD...with _no_ announcers, just stadium audio/noise.
> 
> Sure wish my Fox affiliate did that! What a unique way to watch a game -- no prattle!


wow...I would KILL for that...put a lot of microphones aimed at the field and just give me the sounds of the game...I can't stand announcers. They are totally useless and detract from the game...


----------



## Rottluver

Anubys said:


> wow...I would KILL for that...put a lot of microphones aimed at the field and just give me the sounds of the game...I can't stand announcers. They are totally useless and detract from the game...


I rather enjoy listening to them make giant asses of themselves about every other call.........and they are occasionaly useful when I miss something important.


----------



## joetoronto

this reminds me of the old C-band days. i remember getting "backhauls" with no commercials, announcers, nothing.

the best though was when there WAS announcers but no commercials, they would say they were going to commercial but they never did, the affiliates would put their local commercials in these spots. they used to talk about all kinds of schit because they weren't "on the air".

once, harry neale said during a hockey game of the late bill goldsworthy "he's on the other side of the grass now" and they both started laughing bigtime.


----------



## cheer

baatz said:


> Never having had the "luxury" of OTA reception --- I didn't even realize there were such things as multiple subchannels from a station with varying content...
> 
> Until now...


Some is useless. Many channels have a non-HD digital feed of their HD programming. In Chicago, the local ABC affiliate used to run ABC News Now on a subchannel. Several do the silly weather thing (weather maps/forecasts 24 x 7).

PBS here actually has the national PBS feed on it's "main" HD channel, and a feed of the local programming on a second and PBS Create on the third. One local channel has, like, six subchannels. Again, a lot of chaff, but occasionally one finds some wheat.

I strongly recommend you give OTA reception a try. Depending on where you live, you might just need rabbit ears or a decent indoor antenna.


> Sounds cool. No jibber jabber? Wow... Almost makes me want to move to Champaign. Or maybe drink a lot of champagne to forget that I don't have a feed like that.


That is, without a doubt, the most brilliant programming decision I've ever seen. Frankly, I'd pay a monthly subscription fee to get sports broadcasts _sans_ announcers.


----------



## newsposter

joetoronto said:


> this reminds me of the old C-band days. i remember getting "backhauls" with no commercials, announcers, nothing.
> 
> the best though was when there WAS announcers but no commercials, they would say they were going to commercial but they never did


So they dont still have that today? I had a house with C bad in the early 90s. Was wild watching the war stuff live. I had no idea that tv people swore so much off the air either. I'd catch the feeds from the news vans etc. Boy do they put on their smiley faces though when the red light goes on. I think people's image would be shattered if we ever / still got live feeds such as this.


----------



## joetoronto

i don't know, newsposter. i haven't had C-band in about 10 years now so i'm out of the loop but that "black board" was really cool.  

nothing like an "open sky".


----------



## timc01

I picked up bits on various posts - but would be grateful for all the correct answers:

Currently Cablevision (Westchester, NY), Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR - hate it. Want to move back to a Tivo Box.

If I get the HR10-250 will I always be able to keep Tivo or will D* dump it in this box also? 

Can I get HD locals here? Or will I need an antenna? 

Thanks


----------



## cheer

Right now the only Tivo HD DVR is the HR10-250. That requires D* service.

Sooner or later, D* will stop selling it. Support may last for quite some time, but you will not be able to get HD locals via D* -- you'll have to use an antenna.

Alternatively you can wait for the S3, which hopefully will be out later this year, and use it with your cable.


----------



## Steve O

I'm trying to get my HR10-250 integrated into my Harmony/Logitech H659 controlled system. If I read this thread correctly, at least a couple of years ago, there was no discrete codes to go to specific output formats. Is that still true? The reason I ask is that I want to set up two "activities" for the HD TiVo... one that shows HD. The other that switches everything to 480i. The reason I want to do that is because I have it wired to an RF modulator to send the signal via coax to other parts of the house. I don't want to toggle between 720p and 480i. I just want it to be able to set the output correctly based on the activity. Same is true for the "aspect" setting. Can it be set, not toggled?

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## wmccain

Alas!

No discrete commands for formats, no native format mode, and no S-video or composite output at low-res concurrent with high-def on the component and HDMI outputs. All these omissions add up to the fact that it is impossible to control the HR10-250 intelligently with a control system such as yours (or such as mine, which is AMX).

No discrete commands for the aspect ("ratio") settings, either. (However, there is a "dodge" that works pretty well, since most high-def sets have decent aspect controls of their own. Tell the HR10-250 that the aspect ratio of your TV set is 4:3, even if the actual sets are a mixture of both 4:3 and 16:9. The HR10-250's aspect control works _exactly the same_ on the high-res formats, output via component and HDMI, _regardless_ of the "setup setting" of "TV aspect ratio". But setting the TV aspect ratio to 4:3 makes the "ratio" toggle work better when the format is changed to low-res and the S-video and/or composite outputs are being used, as for your RF modulator.)

The lack of decent format control has gotten me to seriously consider opening the box and tapping the drive voltages on the front panel's format LEDs. Then, using those voltages as input to a set of status ports on an AMX controller, one could programmatically determine what actual format mode the box is in when you send the "format toggle" command ...

But most likely I will just wait for the HR20-250. Although it is not a TiVo box, it is known that the HR20-250 will support direct control via an RS232 port (using the same command set that has historically been supported by DirecTV receivers, which includes discrete format codes). It is also likely that the HR20-250 will support concurrent low-res/high-res output, and a native format mode (since the current crop of non-DVR high-def DirecTV receivers, such as the LG LSS-3200A, _do_ support those features).


----------



## rhudson19187

Stephen Tu said:


> The people who have seen the demo / beta units seem to say that the second sentence here is untrue, you can change output format by remote. Can anyone confirm this? It would be highly annoying if you couldn't.


The remote that came with my DirecTV HD DVR has both a button that controls ratio and also you can program the up arrow to change formats. The programming is done using the menu for settings and then select "remote control".


----------



## HiHoStevo

I would like to pose a question for the "remote" guru's......

I have been using Tivo for about a year and a half now... but have been to busy with "life" to really get into them any deeper than figuring out how to do the 30 second skip, & turn on the TV and audio receiver with the single green button on the Tivo remote..., which interestingly enough seemed to work fine on my 80gig SD-Tivo's, but does not seem to work on the remotes for my HD-Tivo (is there something different here)? 

To whit... I had an SD-Tivo set up 
with my wife's JVC television and Denon audio receiver running the 
sound output. When I programmed the remote I went through the menu to 
setup the TV and the Receiver and from then on when I pushed the green 
button (with the switch in the satellite position) both the TV and the 
Denon would power up (great)! However, I just upgraded my wife's Tivo 
to the HR 10-250 in preparation for upgrading her TV to HD this 
summer. However, when I was programming the new remote the green 
button operates the TV only for power, not the receiver. The remote 
does operate the receiver for sound control just fine... but will not 
do the one-button power-up that I enjoyed with the old remote. So I 
am just using the old remote which still operates the TV and the 
receiver just fine and seems to have no issues interfacing with the 
HD-Tivo... (although I would really prefer using the HD remote). Is 
there something different about the HD remote that prevents them from 
operating in the same fashion that my older remote from the SD-Tivo 
does?


----------



## wmccain

rhudson19187 said:


> The remote that came with my DirecTV HD DVR has both a button that controls ratio and also you can program the up arrow to change formats. The programming is done using the menu for settings and then select "remote control".


Quite true. But the issue here, for home automation folks like myself, is not whether the remote can be used to change format and aspect ration, but whether or not these things can be controlled _discretely_. Unfortunately, both the "Ratio" button and the "Up Arrow" act as "toggles" that flip from one mode to another  they do not provide a direct method to put the DVR in any _specific_ format or aspect ratio.

For home automation purposes, "toggling" keys on remotes are next to useless. The classic example is the "Power On/Off" button. (Fortunately, some brands of equipment _do_ provide separate IR codes for "Power On" and "Power Off", even though they are not always implemented as two separate buttons on the actual remote that comes with the device.)


----------



## cbrantly

Does anybody have the new Series 3 Tivo yet? When is it coming out?


----------



## annenoe

Just posted to another thread put wanted to clarify something.

In the original post, there is a comment about "dual tuner" capability:
>> DirecTV HD TiVos contain 2 DirecTV SD/HD/OTA tuners (a total of 3 coax inputs) which can receive/record standard definition and high definition programming from DirecTV as well as local digital/HDTV broadcasts brought in by an antenna. 2 tuners means 2 different shows can be recorded simultaneously. <<

Just to be clear, I have one OTA, one satellite hooked up and cannot use dual tuners. As I understand it, you need a minimum of *both* satellite cables plugged in to get dual tuner capability to work. But with both satellite, you could also plug in OTA.


----------



## ericlhyman

Is there any info on when DirecTV will begin the swap for HD Tivo owners?


----------



## cheer

There isn't even a release date for the new DVR yet.


----------



## cheer

joey398 said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/19/tivo-tells-fcc-cable-operators-to-expect-series-3-boxes-soon/


Of course, that's not the HD DVR that we were just discussing...


----------



## Bob_Newhart

I'm sure this topic has been covered ad nauseum but I didn't see it and didn't look carefully. I just bought my first HDTV and an HR10-250 HD Tivo.

Question: When Directv releases their HD DVR that will record local channels, will there be offers where I can upgrade my current HD DVR to theirs? I know I'll have to get the 5 LNB dish, as well. Any guesses on what that will run?

Question: What additional channels do you think will be added to their service in the near future? Just the locals or a lot more?


Thanks


----------



## Joe Smith

cheer said:


> There isn't even a release date for the new DVR yet.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=309297 talks about an August 2006 release.


----------



## cheer

Joe Smith said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=309297 talks about an August 2006 release.


Yes it does. But that's not the same as an announced release date.


----------



## Kenwood

newsposter said:


> LA and NY DO have mpeg2 in HD...if you are in CA you may be able to get them..i dont know about the criteria though. I'm guessing if you are in LA you can get LA
> 
> search in the HDtivo forum for better answers as there are rumors of mpeg2 being turned off. I know nothing!


Okay, D* has me living in LA, but I moved to Phoenix a year ago. I have DNS East & West Coast feeds. I didn't want to lose those or the ability to watch Dodgers/Lakers games.

So would I be able to receive the HD Local feeds (Living in PHX) if I bought a HDtivo?


----------



## cybrsurfer

Kenwood said:


> Okay, D* has me living in LA, but I moved to Phoenix a year ago. I have DNS East & West Coast feeds. I didn't want to lose those or the ability to watch Dodgers/Lakers games.
> 
> So would I be able to receive the HD Local feeds (Living in PHX) if I bought a HDtivo?


click on the link below to go to DirecTV DNS (Distant network) site to find out if you can still get the NY/LA feeds...

http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressForm.aspx


----------



## bellbm

newsposter said:


> So they dont still have that today? I had a house with C bad in the early 90s. Was wild watching the war stuff live. I had no idea that tv people swore so much off the air either. I'd catch the feeds from the news vans etc. Boy do they put on their smiley faces though when the red light goes on. I think people's image would be shattered if we ever / still got live feeds such as this.


This would be great stuff to post on You Tube!


----------



## Valor55

HiHoStevo said:


> I would like to pose a question for the "remote" guru's......
> 
> I have been using Tivo for about a year and a half now... but have been to busy with "life" to really get into them any deeper than figuring out how to do the 30 second skip, & turn on the TV and audio receiver with the single green button on the Tivo remote..., which interestingly enough seemed to work fine on my 80gig SD-Tivo's, but does not seem to work on the remotes for my HD-Tivo (is there something different here)?
> 
> To whit... I had an SD-Tivo set up
> with my wife's JVC television and Denon audio receiver running the
> sound output. When I programmed the remote I went through the menu to
> setup the TV and the Receiver and from then on when I pushed the green
> button (with the switch in the satellite position) both the TV and the
> Denon would power up (great)! However, I just upgraded my wife's Tivo
> to the HR 10-250 in preparation for upgrading her TV to HD this
> summer. However, when I was programming the new remote the green
> button operates the TV only for power, not the receiver. The remote
> does operate the receiver for sound control just fine... but will not
> do the one-button power-up that I enjoyed with the old remote. So I
> am just using the old remote which still operates the TV and the
> receiver just fine and seems to have no issues interfacing with the
> HD-Tivo... (although I would really prefer using the HD remote). Is
> there something different about the HD remote that prevents them from
> operating in the same fashion that my older remote from the SD-Tivo
> does?


I am not the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to this A/V stuff so I am far from an expert. I recently moutned a plasma TV to the wall and put all my A/V equipment in a separate room and in a cabinet. I don't want to look at it. I got the Logitech Harmony 890 remote which sends an RF signal to an receiver in the cabinet that has IR blasters built in. The remote was a cinch to set up. It has "activities" that are just macros of signals. "Watch TV" will turn on the TV, wake up the HR10-250, turn on the receiver and set it to the proper inputs. When I hit "Off" on the remote it shuts all the devices off. It works the same way to "Watch DVD" --it turns on the DVD player and sets the TV and receiver to the correct inputs.

This may be way overkill for what you want to do but it does work. All my remotes are put away, the Harmony is the only one I need to use for anything in my system.


----------



## MikeNorman

I think this may be the correct place to ask this question. If not I am very sorry for causing a problem.

I am schedule Friday morning by Directv to replace my dish and install the MPEG4 dish and H20 MPEG4 receiver to be able to get local high definition channels coming to Oklahoma City early December.

Does my 5X8 power multiswitch I am currently using have to be replaced? I used it to connect my HR10-250 and other high definition receivers and standard TIVO PVR's.
Mike


----------



## Budget_HT

Mike,

DirecTV should be expected to replace your 5x8 multiswitch with one that is compatible with the new satellites.

The potential trap here might be the OTA input to your 5x8 multiswitch. If you are using that to diplex OTA signals with the satellite signals delivered to your receivers, you may need to come up with an alternative method, which DirecTV will likely NOT help you with. The 5-satellite system has downlink frequencies that conflict with OTA UHF frequencies, so diplexing OTA with satellite from DirecTV will not work.

That said, I have read here or on AVS Forum that some folks are still TEMPORARILY able to use their diplexing, since apparently the interfering frequencis don't come into play until the next satellite is launched. I may have this wrong, but folks have reported this or something similar.

One potential solution might be to leave your 5x8 multiswitch in place, feeding your current receivers as today. But the satellite inputs to the 5x8 would be fed by 4 outputs of a new multiswitch that supports all 5 satellites. The new HR20 would be fed directly from 2 ports of the new multiswitch.

This approach can work in part because none of your existing receivers are capable of receiving MPEG-4 signals from the new satellites.

Anyone, feel free to correct any erros here.


----------



## Blademan007

feldon23 said:


> DirecTV HDTV programming at 110:
> *ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, Discovery HD, HDNet Movies, Showtime HD*
> 
> DirecTV HDTV programming at 119:
> *HDNet, HBO HD, HD Pay-per-view*


The FAQ HD channel list needs to be updated. For example, according to Lyngsat, HBO is now on 110.


----------



## amberbamber

Has Tivo or anyone released TivoToGo or any similar software for the hr10-250's yet?
One post said it might be out the end of this year. It seems like a lot of trouble to muck around in my hr10-250 since I'm supposed to be upgraded to the mpeg4 unit when they come out. I have the 5lnb dish already.

I just watched a commercial tonight about Tivo allowing people to move recorded tivo shows to their laptop computers for portable viewing.

Is it better to get a stand alone Tivo with dtv to be able to watch shows on my laptop at my leisure?

Why does dtv have to limit things and screw everything up?  

Thanks


----------



## feldon23

amberbamber said:


> Has Tivo or anyone released TivoToGo or any similar software for the hr10-250's yet?


Not that I know of. Check the "other" website which I cannot give the URL for. You might find a great *deal *of info in their *database *about TiVo.



amberbamber said:


> I just watched a commercial tonight about Tivo allowing people to move recorded tivo shows to their laptop computers for portable viewing.
> 
> Is it better to get a stand alone Tivo with dtv to be able to watch shows on my laptop at my leisure?


If you want to go back to the dark ages as far as picture and sound quality. If you must have MRV and/or transfer shows to your PC and you love DirecTV, get a DirecTV non-HD TiVo. There is software out there to enable HMO and MRV on the DirecTV non-HD TiVos.

But now is the wrong time to buy a DirecTV TiVo. They are switching to MPEG-4 as you are aware and Rupert Murdoch, the cause of DirecTV ditching TiVo, has sold DirecTV to another company. So off in the distance, there is now a slim chance of a series 3 DirecTV TiVo that does MPEG-4 and all the other goodies.



amberbamber said:


> Why does dtv have to limit things and screw everything up?


Thank Rupert Murdoch for setting technology back with the lowest common denominator. Australia has been thanking him for years. He's gone out of his way to block High Definition in Australia because it costs too much. His philosophy is, if nobody has HD, nobody will miss it.


----------



## feldon23

Blademan007 said:


> The FAQ HD channel list needs to be updated. For example, according to Lyngsat, HBO is now on 110.


Pretty soon, the HR10-250 will be useless for HBO, Showtime, etc.


----------



## bgshapiro

Since the TIVO "Scrooge" has now parted with his interest in DTV, does this mean that DTV may get back on track with TIVO and stop making us use that horrible HD DVR?


----------



## BizarroTerl

Please, please, please. We have the DTV HD DVR and it rates a 10 on the 1-10 scale of suckiness.


----------



## feldon23

I really hope we see a TiVo Series 3 for DirecTV.

I tinkered with the $800 cable TiVo Series 3 at Best Buy. Too bad you can't do anything but watch the 120 second clip. I wanted to go through the menus and play back example shows.

Chatted up the Best Buy employee. He said they are selling at a decent clip. I asked him if the people who buy them are already very knowledgeable about them before they buy them and he said oh yes. I mentioned CableCard to him and that they require 2 cards from Time Warner, at which point the TiVo is actually functioning as its own cable box. He had no clue of course.


----------



## Silo24X

Whole House Video Issue:

Well that seems to solve 95% of my initial whole house video issues. 

With the limited drive size of the stock HD Tivo, our other DirecTiVos and our travel schedule - what we record on that Tivo will be "sit down and watch" programs rather than the "walk around the house" variety. With the exception of visiting the kitchen/bar which has the 2nd plasma.

I bought a component video and digital audio selector with two outputs so that took care of seeing HDTV programming on the two plasma screens via component. 

Then on the few instances where one of us wanted to finish watching a program in another room, the one watching the plasma would just have to watch the 480 signal.

Not a perfect solution and one I hope gets addressed in the next version, but workable for now.


----------



## slocko

are you serious? when is this expected to happen?



feldon23 said:


> Pretty soon, the HR10-250 will be useless for HBO, Showtime, etc.


----------



## dswallow

slocko said:


> are you serious? when is this expected to happen?


It CAN'T happen before late 2007, when DirecTV's 2 satellites capable of national coverage in the Ka-band should be launched and operating. Once that milestone is reached, it probably WON'T happen for some time, probably at least another year, since it'll affect current HD subscribers who do not yet have a 5-LNB Ka-band dish or Ka-band/MPEG4 HD receivers; it'll simply take time for DirecTV to get those changed out whenever they decide to begin to force the issue.

So while it might happen as soon as early 2008, I doubt it'll happen until late 2008 or 2009 at the earliest.

And if anything happens to prevent both of the new satellites being launched in 2007 from operating fully, then expect a further delay on this timetable.


----------



## Paul Wozniak

Why would Direct move these signals? The space is already allocated where they are. They can add the mpeg 4 signal for HBO, etc... on the new birds without having to discontinue the old signals.


----------



## dswallow

Paul Wozniak said:


> Why would Direct move these signals? The space is already allocated where they are. They can add the mpeg 4 signal for HBO, etc... on the new birds without having to discontinue the old signals.


There will be a time when they want to reclaim that bandwidth for other uses, but they'll have to balance that with the need/desire for current customers with non-mpeg4 HD equipment to receive those channels as well as the logistics of ensuring everyone has ample time to upgrade their equipment and dish before turning it off.


----------



## worc33

I'm a DirecTV subscriber - looking to upgrade to HD. I'm a TiVO devotee and from this forum it's clear the new DirecTV HD DVR is a disaster. I'd like to get a HR10-250 in the secondary market but I need to clarify these two problems - this thread has been helpful but its a little bit above my technical understanding. 

1) Will I be able to get my local affiliates in HD with the HR 10-250?
2) Will some HD channels (eg, HBO) not be available on the HR 10-250 in the future?

Can anyone clarify this? First is a much bigger issue for the time being. Any other recommendations for a TiVO user who wants to get DirecTV HD?

thank you.


----------



## dswallow

worc33 said:


> I'm a DirecTV subscriber - looking to upgrade to HD. I'm a TiVO devotee and from this forum it's clear the new DirecTV HD DVR is a disaster. I'd like to get a HR10-250 in the secondary market but I need to clarify these two problems - this thread has been helpful but its a little bit above my technical understanding.
> 
> 1) Will I be able to get my local affiliates in HD with the HR 10-250?
> 2) Will some HD channels (eg, HBO) not be available on the HR 10-250 in the future?
> 
> Can anyone clarify this? First is a much bigger issue for the time being. Any other recommendations for a TiVO user who wants to get DirecTV HD?


1) Only NYC and LA major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) are available in HD over MPEG2/Ku-band satellites that the HR10-250 could receive; the HR10-250 can also tune digital ATSC broadcasts if you have an antenna, and that'd let you record all the stations you can receive, not just the major networks.

2) Sooner or later the HD MPEG-2 channels will be cut off and become MPEG-4/Ka-band only. Probably not for at least 1 to 2 years, but there will come a time. The HR10-250 will always work for SD Ku-band channels and OTA digital (HD and otherwise) broadcasts.


----------



## worc33

Would an antenna allow me to receive the Boston networks in HD? Would I be able to integrate that feed into the HR10-250 or would I have to switch to another Video input (eg, VIDEO 1 on my Sony TV) whenever I want to watch broadcasts in HD? I dont mind spending some $$ on equipment but I also dont want a hassle once its all installed.

Could you define what an ATSC broadcast is?


----------



## A J Ricaud

worc33 said:


> Would an antenna allow me to receive the Boston networks in HD? Would I be able to integrate that feed into the HR10-250 or would I have to switch to another Video input (eg, VIDEO 1 on my Sony TV) whenever I want to watch broadcasts in HD? I dont mind spending some $$ on equipment but I also dont want a hassle once its all installed.
> 
> Could you define what an ATSC broadcast is?


Go to antennaweb.org and enter the info requested. It will tell you if you can receive HD OTA broadcasts and will recommend an antenna type.

Assuming you can receive them, the OTA HD channels will be integrated in the HR10-250's program guide. You will not have to change inputs on your TV. You will have to re-run guided setup to tell the HR10-250 to use both antenna and satellite.

ATSC means digital transmission.


----------



## dswallow

worc33 said:


> Would an antenna allow me to receive the Boston networks in HD? Would I be able to integrate that feed into the HR10-250 or would I have to switch to another Video input (eg, VIDEO 1 on my Sony TV) whenever I want to watch broadcasts in HD? I dont mind spending some $$ on equipment but I also dont want a hassle once its all installed.
> 
> Could you define what an ATSC broadcast is?


Local digital television stations received over an antenna are fully integrated with everything the HR10-250 does; they're part of the guide; they're part of all recording options; they're directly tunable by channel number; etc. It's just they are received via a local antenna instead of via a satellite dish. If there's no issues receiving the signal in your geographic location, they'll be just like any other DirecTV channel on the HR10-250.


----------



## Anubys

worc33 said:


> I'm a DirecTV subscriber - looking to upgrade to HD. I'm a TiVO devotee and from this forum it's clear the new DirecTV HD DVR is a disaster.


maybe you should try other forums...I would not call the new HD DVR a disaster...since it's not a Tivo unit, this is not the forum to use to do your research on it...try DBStalk


----------



## aaafence rider

Can anybody tell me how to check much recording capacity is left on my HR10-250


----------



## jhays

The only way with an unhacked unit is to activate Tivo Suggestions. If you have several pages of Suggestions, you have plenty of room. If Suggestions are down to less than a page, you are running out of space.


----------



## aaafence rider

I am considering buying another HR10-250 for a second HD hookup in the house in another room; currently I get the local cannels in HD on my other HR10-250. (I live in NY); Considering I will have to pay 4-5 hundred for a second HR10-250, does anybody have an opinion on whether I should lay out the cash or wait for the MPeg-4 equipment to come around (I have read posts that the HR10-250 will be rendered disabled from a local channel HD standpoint); Also, is the Series 3 the equivalent to the HR10-250? (sorry if this last part of the question is dumb)..thanks for input


----------



## A J Ricaud

aaafence rider said:


> Considering I will have to pay 4-5 hundred for a second HR10-250, does anybody have an opinion on whether I should lay out the cash or wait for the MPeg-4 equipment to come around (I have read posts that the HR10-250 will be rendered disabled from a local channel HD standpoint); Also, is the Series 3 the equivalent to the HR10-250? (sorry if this last part of the question is dumb)..thanks for input


If you are receiving your locals via satellite, then, yes, locals will eventually be broadcast only in MPEG-4 format, which the HR10-250 cannot receive. Some posts indicate that this will happen sometime in 2007. Others say later, but no official word yet.

If you can receive locals OTA with an external antenna, then you can continue to do so with the HR10-250.

The Series 3 Tivo is for cable/OTA only.


----------



## hfhlt004

aaafence rider said:


> I am considering buying another HR10-250 for a second HD hookup in the house in another room; currently I get the local cannels in HD on my other HR10-250. (I live in NY); Considering I will have to pay 4-5 hundred for a second HR10-250, does anybody have an opinion on whether I should lay out the cash or wait for the MPeg-4 equipment to come around (I have read posts that the HR10-250 will be rendered disabled from a local channel HD standpoint); Also, is the Series 3 the equivalent to the HR10-250? (sorry if this last part of the question is dumb)..thanks for input


I was one who initially regretted getting the Directv HR20, but after about 3 months, this box is improving almost up to the standards for DirecTIVO. I figured if I were to stay with Directv, I would have to adapt. I also like the greater recording capacity of the new box.


----------



## kenferm

dswallow said:


> 1) Only NYC and LA major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) are available in HD over MPEG2/Ku-band satellites that the HR10-250 could receive; the HR10-250 can also tune digital ATSC broadcasts if you have an antenna, and that'd let you record all the stations you can receive, not just the major networks.
> 
> 2) Sooner or later the HD MPEG-2 channels will be cut off and become MPEG-4/Ka-band only. Probably not for at least 1 to 2 years, but there will come a time. The HR10-250 will always work for SD Ku-band channels and OTA digital (HD and otherwise) broadcasts.


Just to clarify - regarding the ability in the NYC/NJ area (i live 25 miles outside of NYC), if I bought the HR10-250, I would be able to get local channels in HD using MPEG2/KU-band satellites - the question I have is whether that utitlizes the 3LNB dish or do I have to get the 5LNB dish for this? Also, am I buying this service through Tivo or through Direct TV??


----------



## stevel

If you qualify for NYC locals, theoretically you can get the four major networks in HD with an HR10 and a 3-LNB dish. Whether or not DirecTV will let you do so is another question. All of your service is through DirecTV. TiVo is a service contractor to DirecTV and you do not have any direct dealings with them. There are other HD locals you will not be able to receive with the HR10.


----------



## dswallow

kenferm said:


> Just to clarify - regarding the ability in the NYC/NJ area (i live 25 miles outside of NYC), if I bought the HR10-250, I would be able to get local channels in HD using MPEG2/KU-band satellites - the question I have is whether that utitlizes the 3LNB dish or do I have to get the 5LNB dish for this?


The 3-LNB dish is all you'll need. "Local channels in HD" is just ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC. No PBS, CW, MTN or anything else in HD.

But at 25 miles from NYC, you'd probably do rather well with an antenna, too... even an indoor one.


----------



## kenferm

dswallow said:


> The 3-LNB dish is all you'll need. "Local channels in HD" is just ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC. No PBS, CW, MTN or anything else in HD.
> 
> But at 25 miles from NYC, you'd probably do rather well with an antenna, too... even an indoor one.


Am I missing something or does it seem that right now, there's no great way to do this. I just checked out the Direct TV site and over there, they are all upset w/ the Direct TV HD DVR box (HR20 700) and apparently even CNET has written to DIrect TV because of all of the customer complaints on their site about that box. But Tivo is limited in its abilities with Direct TV because they don't do business anymore and effectively, if you buy the HR 250 unit, its a ticking time bomb because ultimately, you won't be able to get the HD Local channels when they switch to MPEG 4?

Am I getting this right? All I want is the great software of Tivo in HD for all HD channels through Direct TV, is that too much to ask for?


----------



## dswallow

kenferm said:


> Am I missing something or does it seem that right now, there's no great way to do this. I just checked out the Direct TV site and over there, they are all upset w/ the Direct TV HD DVR box (HR20 700) and apparently even CNET has written to DIrect TV because of all of the customer complaints on their site about that box. But Tivo is limited in its abilities with Direct TV because they don't do business anymore and effectively, if you buy the HR 250 unit, its a ticking time bomb because ultimately, you won't be able to get the HD Local channels when they switch to MPEG 4?
> 
> Am I getting this right? All I want is the great software of Tivo in HD for all HD channels through Direct TV, is that too much to ask for?


Sooner or later NYC locals will probably move to be MPEG4/Ka-band only, and that'll require one of the newer receivers and a 5-LNB dish. But as to exactly when that'll happen...

a) Not until both national-footprint Ka-band satellites are launched in mid- and late-2007 and become operational.

b) Not until DirecTV has had a chance to inform all those who receive the NYC local HD channels they're going away and need new equipment and have the opportunity to get such new equipment and have it installed.

They'll probably be around at least through a good portion of 2008.

But no matter what, the HR10-250 can record local HD channels via antenna, too. So as long as it stays an active receiver on your DirecTV account, you'll always be able to record local HD channels that way since they're unaffected by DirecTV moving to MPEG4. So if you can receive your locals via antenna, the HR10-250 is, at worst, always going to be able to record your local HD and all the DirecTV SD (and HD) channels available via Ku-band in MPEG2.

Finally, when (and if) the time comes where you need something in MPEG4/Ka-band, you'll probably still be able to get a mostly free replacement DVR from DirecTV, or you could just add a DirecTV receiver to your account that can record those channels. You don't have to give up your HR10-250, you can just supplement it.


----------



## kenferm

dswallow said:


> Sooner or later NYC locals will probably move to be MPEG4/Ka-band only, and that'll require one of the newer receivers and a 5-LNB dish. But as to exactly when that'll happen...
> 
> a) Not until both national-footprint Ka-band satellites are launched in mid- and late-2007 and become operational.
> 
> b) Not until DirecTV has had a chance to inform all those who receive the NYC local HD channels they're going away and need new equipment and have the opportunity to get such new equipment and have it installed.
> 
> They'll probably be around at least through a good portion of 2008.
> 
> But no matter what, the HR10-250 can record local HD channels via antenna, too. So as long as it stays an active receiver on your DirecTV account, you'll always be able to record local HD channels that way since they're unaffected by DirecTV moving to MPEG4. So if you can receive your locals via antenna, the HR10-250 is, at worst, always going to be able to record your local HD and all the DirecTV SD (and HD) channels available via Ku-band in MPEG2.
> 
> Finally, when (and if) the time comes where you need something in MPEG4/Ka-band, you'll probably still be able to get a mostly free replacement DVR from DirecTV, or you could just add a DirecTV receiver to your account that can record those channels. You don't have to give up your HR10-250, you can just supplement it.


Regarding the antenna that you refer to, while I know this isn't the antenna forum, can you suggest a model for this? Is this an antenna I would put on the roof next to the dish itself??


----------



## dswallow

kenferm said:


> Regarding the antenna that you refer to, while I know this isn't the antenna forum, can you suggest a model for this? Is this an antenna I would put on the roof next to the dish itself??


If you can put one out by the dish, I'd suggest the Winegard SquareShooter. If you want to try one inside first, find a Zenith Silver Sensor.

Outside is always better than inside. But at only 25 miles from NYC, unless you're in some deep valley and line-of-sight to the Empire State Building is blocked by a massive amount of earth and rock, you should do pretty well with either.


----------



## Aragorn

Unit went down hard last night, only thing I got for days is Direct TV logo and said installing nothing happen. Then I got the grey screen said starting up nothing... Most likely hard drive failure. Fixed the Hard Drive with some Utilities, so now I can use that via a external drive now for my computers. My question is where can I find the software to re-install on to this hard drive? I have used Weeknees and PTV Upgrades, but there 200 plus bucks, and now I just saw the 250's going for $250 at CompUSA... The good news is Direct TV is sending me there newest DVR but there goes Tivo


----------



## stahta01

Aragorn said:


> Unit went down hard last night, only thing I got for days is Direct TV logo and said installing nothing happen. Then I got the grey screen said starting up nothing... Most likely hard drive failure. Fixed the Hard Drive with some Utilities, so now I can use that via a external drive now for my computers. My question is where can I find the software to re-install on to this hard drive? I have used Weeknees and PTV Upgrades, but there 200 plus bucks, and now I just saw the 250's going for $250 at CompUSA... The good news is Direct TV is sending me there newest DVR but there goes Tivo


I would suggest posting in the upgrade forum.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25
Also, for twenty you can try instantcake.
I have not used instantcake so no idea if it is a good value or not.
Tim S
http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/instantcake.cfm


----------



## nidan69

I had planned to switch my DirecTV service to HD in the near future and have been looking for some HD DirecTiVos (used or new) to buy. Reading this, I am however beginning to think that it may be a waste of my money if DirecTV switches their format to MPEG4. Being that the Series 3 Standalone HD TiVo is not compatible with DirecTV, what other options does one have (I don't want to switch to the DirecTV DVR)? Any ideas anybody?


----------



## Arcady

Get cable?


----------



## nidan69

I thought about that, but I would need to buy several stand alone TiVo's and that could become very pricy to say the least. Any word if TiVo has any plans for satellite users?


----------



## dswallow

nidan69 said:


> I had planned to switch my DirecTV service to HD in the near future and have been looking for some HD DirecTiVos (used or new) to buy. Reading this, I am however beginning to think that it may be a waste of my money if DirecTV switches their format to MPEG4. Being that the Series 3 Standalone HD TiVo is not compatible with DirecTV, what other options does one have (I don't want to switch to the DirecTV DVR)? Any ideas anybody?


Without the cooperation of the satellite provider, there's nothing TiVo or any other third party really can do with satellite signals.

Figure you've got a year or two of the current MPEG2 HD channels on DirecTV remaining around, at least. After that, your HR10-250 doesn't become useless/worthless, it'll just not be able to record the MPEG4 material; it'll still get all the MPEG2 material, including all over the air digital/HD stations you can receive by antenna, and all the DirecTV SD/Ku-band programming. Everyone's viewing habits are, of course, different, but excluding theatrical movies, it seems to me that for the average viewer, there's more HD over-the-air than via cable channels. There's nothing wrong with the idea of using the HR10-250 with DirecTV for the forseeable future and supplementing it with one HR20 for the MPEG4 material.

The TiVo Series 3 unit is the most flexible right now -- but limited to cable and over the air digital channels, not satellite. However there's at least the ability to use it most anywhere in the country since most areas are served by cable companies offering CableCard service. It's a shame the FCC hasn't seen fit to mandate the satellite companies also develop a way that third parties can create products around their video services. Maybe one day.

Don't worry too much about the future beyond a year or so -- you'll never feel safe making a decision -- things can change rather rapidly. And frankly I think the only real answer to your question is that you need to seriously look at cable now, because at least as things look now, that's about the only way you'll get the services/features that you want.


----------



## Rottluver

dswallow said:


> The 3-LNB dish is all you'll need. "Local channels in HD" is just ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC. No PBS, CW, MTN or anything else in HD.
> 
> But at 25 miles from NYC, you'd probably do rather well with an antenna, too... even an indoor one.


Just out of curiousity, how do you tell if you have a 3LNB dish or a ??????

I just got a smokin deal on a brand new HR10-250 and I am curious if I can hook it up & make it work before I get my HD TV (currently on order)


----------



## dswallow

Rottluver said:


> Just out of curiousity, how do you tell if you have a 3LNB dish or a ??????
> 
> I just got a smokin deal on a brand new HR10-250 and I am curious if I can hook it up & make it work before I get my HD TV (currently on order)


Just look at the dish. If it's got 3 separate "cones" on the end of the arm pointed at the dish, it's the 3-LNB dish.

No matter what, you can certainly hook up your HR10-250 to whatever dish you have now. You just won't receive some of the HD channels if you only have a single LNB dish until such time as you replace the dish.


----------



## Rottluver

dswallow said:


> Just look at the dish. If it's got 3 separate "cones" on the end of the arm pointed at the dish, it's the 3-LNB dish.
> 
> No matter what, you can certainly hook up your HR10-250 to whatever dish you have now. You just won't receive some of the HD channels if you only have a single LNB dish until such time as you replace the dish.


Thanks.


----------



## yoneltx

I had a couple of questions about your equipment. I have a HR10-250 (which I really like - avoiding the term LOVE) and have it connected to an OTA antenna. I get great reception from local network HD channels. I am about to get a HR20-700 and want to know if I will be able to get HD local channels the same way my HR10 has. Also, and I don't know if you would know this but it is worth the try, I have Vonage and want to find out how compatible it is to hook it to the HR20, any ideas, suggestions, comments?

Sincerely,

Yonel


----------



## wpafan

you wont be able to use an off air antenna with the HR20 yet. the ATSC tuners are not active.. theres supposed to be a software upgrade later this year to activate them.


----------



## dswallow

wpafan said:


> you wont be able to use an off air antenna with the HR20 yet. the ATSC tuners are not active.. theres supposed to be a software upgrade later this year to activate them.


That happened in the beginning of December 2006.


----------



## hkprakash7

How would it be possible to measure the cross-polarization level for the DirecTV signals??? DirecTV claims that the cross-polarization level is -30 dB. Using a spectrum analyzer would it be possible to measure the level?


----------



## dswallow

hkprakash7 said:


> How would it be possible to measure the cross-polarization level for the DirecTV signals??? DirecTV claims that the cross-polarization level is -30 dB. Using a spectrum analyzer would it be possible to measure the level?


Why would this be of any importance to you relative to receiving DirecTV? It's not something you can control and is related to the analog signal before demodulating the digital signal and decoding the content.


----------



## hkprakash7

well Its a part of my project. Hence I'm doing it!!! I know that its not of something which we can control. I've been asked to verify it.


----------



## dealsmith

Sorry to be a new forum member and not clear as to where to ask a question. This seems close but if I am off track, let me know. I also admit to being "techno-limited" 

I have DTV with the HR10-250 at my home in California in order to have HDTV with TIVO. I have a remote vacation home where I used to be able to receive DTV signals but not now. DTVs relatively new satellite and focusing technology has eliminated all but a handful of channels. I have a Series 2 Tivo at the vacation home and it is connected to the internet. I know it will not handle HD but that is not a big problem. I am looking for guidance as to whether I could somehow use a Slingbox in California, then download its content to the Tivo at the vacation home. I have cable modem service at home and dsl at the vacation home. I know I could use a PC at the vacation home to watch the slingbox content but the idea of a 17" screen is not that exciting. 

Any help someone can offer will be appreciated.


----------



## bobinalaska

Hello Listers,
I would like to ADD an HR20-700 with my hr10_250 to the same TV. Can I split the sat signal coming in or do need to run an extra set of inputs from the switch?
Thanks for all your help.
Bob


----------



## dswallow

bobinalaska said:


> Hello Listers,
> I would like to ADD an HR20-700 with my hr10_250 to the same TV. Can I split the sat signal coming in or do need to run an extra set of inputs from the switch?
> Thanks for all your help.
> Bob


You need to run another set of cables from the multiswitch.


----------



## bobinalaska

I maxed out on the 10 way is there a way to split the satellite inputs to allow for another switch?


----------



## bigpuma

bobinalaska said:


> I maxed out on the 10 way is there a way to split the satellite inputs to allow for another switch?


What do you mean 10 way? Do you have a multiswitch with 10 outputs?

Anyway you can take 4 of the outputs from a multiswitch and input it into another multiswitch to get more outputs. This assumes your multiswitches are cascadable. You might want to detail your installation so we can help you.


----------



## rld1015

Would you guys see if I have this right for a change in my installation? 

Currently I have a single LNB dish with one cable coming in at the back corner of my house. Also have a cable run from here for external antenna. This cable is not being used now. Both cables come from the back corner of the house to a distribution point in the attic just above the garage. From the distribution point I have I two cables run to each room, originally intended for 1 OTA and 1 sat/dvr feed. Currently have RS xx120 OTA antenna in the attic. Going to our main TV (on an inside wall) I use 1 cable for the attic antenna and 1 cable for the feed from the single LNB dish going to just 1 input of my 10-250, losing the ability to record two shows at once. I do not get locals from Direct. OTA analog signal are decent considering we are 13 and 36 miles (and slight difference in direction) from the transmitter, but I cannot turn the antenna to get digital from all stations. If I turn to get good digital from one I lose the other. If I try to compromise, I get drop outs from both directions. Have tried an amplifier, but no help. I suspect multipath issues but I can't move the antenna around in the attic enough to help.

What I think I want to do is throw in the towell on the local Digital and get local from Direct as well the new HD channels and be able to record two programs at once.

Am I correct that I would need four cables from the entry point to my distribution point and put the multiswitch at that location? And then use the two existing cables to each TV/DVR? If I wanted OTA then I would need to fish a third cable to each TV. Running 4 cables from the old entry point or a new entry point to my distribution point would be a real pain but doable. I think this would be easier than running new cables from the entry point to each room. The main tv is on an inside wall and fishing a new cable there would be more that a real pain but possible I guess. Not sure I would still need OTA if I get the locals from Direct. 

Sorry this was so long. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## PortlandPaw

You're on the right track, but be careful what kind of cable is already in place for your OTA...it may be RG59 which is not acceptable for satellite. It has to be at least RG6. They look almost the same and you may have to carefully examine the printing on the cable to identify. 

Don't try to assume away the difference...I discovered that using a 3' length of RG59 between the wall and the TiVo (RG6 for the rest of the run) made the difference between receiving Bravo and other stations and not receiving them. Almost made the difference in our marriage!

Also, you don't need as many cables. Get 5 X 8 switch which has inputs for the four satellite cables and one OTA. Then run two cables to each TV. The OTA gets distributed along with the satellite signal. At each TV you use a diplexer (NOT a splitter!) on one of the lines to separate the OTA from satellite signals and run cables to the two appropriate inputs on your TiVo.


----------



## rld1015

Thanks !
All cable is RG 6. I put it in myself back before I had heard of multiple cables being required from the dish. I thought I was doing good at the time by running two cables from the entry point to the distribution point and two cables from distribution point to each tv location. Boy was I wrong!
I will be getting a 5 LNB dish I guess. Will Direct run the 4 cables in the attic to the distribution point for the multiswitch or will I have to do that? Also will the multiswitch be ok in the attic? It gets pretty hot up there. Sounds like if I use the diplexers as you mention I will be ok with the 2 existing cables to each tv.
Thanks a lot for the help !!!!


----------



## Tivo_60

From the first post in this thread:



> You can also use the new 5LNB Ka/Ku 'superdish' from DirecTV with the HR10-250 HD TiVo, but you will not be able to *record* any high definition channels which are in MPEG-4 format (specifically local channels and eventually the entire lineup of HDTV channels on DirecTV).


Does this mean that you can *view* the new mpeg-4 channels ? If yes, then this seems to contradict another statement in the same post:



> DirecTV TiVos and DirecTV HD TiVos will continue to function for an indefinite period but DirecTV HD TiVos will not be able to receive the HDTV programming DirecTV intends to roll out through 2006 and 2007, specifically local channels over satellite


So, what's the true status please ?


----------



## newsposter

Tivo_60 said:


> From the first post in this thread:
> 
> Does this mean that you can *view* the new mpeg-4 channels ? If yes, then this seems to contradict another statement in the same post:
> 
> So, what's the true status please ?


no mpeg4 can be seen in any way whatsoever on the HDtivo.


----------



## Tivo_60

newsposter said:


> no mpeg4 can be seen in any way whatsoever on the HDtivo.


I had a feeling that would be the answer. So why are people buying the HR10-250's on Ebay, at any price?. Hardly seems worth it to receive only 10-15 HD channels now that 75, and counting, are available.


----------



## dswallow

Tivo_60 said:


> I had a feeling that would be the answer. So why are people buying the HR10-250's on Ebay, at any price?. Hardly seems worth it to receive only 10-15 HD channels now that 75, and counting, are available.


For one, many people view most content from over-the-air channels, especially the major networks, and that's not going away no matter what DirecTV shuffles around on their satellites.

While it might be necessary to have an HR20 or HR21 for some channels, they can certainly supplement rather than replace HR10's.


----------



## newsposter

personally i use OTA a lot and it's well worth it for 4 tuners on my 2 units. Then i use HR20 for all the new HD exclusively. Plus it fits a heck of a lot of SD on it. I never even had an HD pack until i got my hr20 last month. Didnt miss the mpeg2 HD stuff at all from satellite.


----------



## Tivo_60

Ok, thanks to both of you. I have been on the fence now that Verizon Fios cables have been on our street since July, but not yet activated.
I've been looking for a short terrm solution for hd content (I do have OTA) without a commitment and or lease obligation and was considering the low investment HR10-250 alternative. May do it now it spite of the limited ch availability.


----------



## newsposter

well 2 yr commit is not a short term solution with HDtivo. you cant get out of that.


----------



## tfederov

Check out my sig for a high level comparison between the HR10 and the HR2x. It also has DISH ViP 622 and 722 in there as well. Hope it's helpful.


----------



## Tivo_60

newsposter said:


> well 2 yr commit is not a short term solution with HDtivo. you cant get out of that.


How does activating a used/owned receiver add a commitment to an existing 4yr account ?

tfederov:yes, that comparison is very helpful. The one thing I've heard, but can't confirm, is that the 20 can only pause (90 min) on one tuner. Is that true?


----------



## newsposter

Tivo_60 said:


> How does activating a used/owned receiver add a commitment to an existing 4yr account ?


I'm pretty sure activation of any Advanced receiver adds 2 years starting today. In other words, restarts the clock on any other commitments you have. Call to be sure.


----------



## Tivo_60

newsposter said:


> I'm pretty sure activation of any Advanced receiver adds 2 years starting today. In other words, restarts the clock on any other commitments you have. Call to be sure.


I called and there is no additional commitment in activating a receiver as described.


----------



## newsposter

Tivo_60 said:


> I called and there is no additional commitment in activating a receiver as described.


did i read you correctly that you want to buy an HDtivo off ebay then activate it? If so, then i stand by my 1st answer that there is a commitment for 2 years. If not, then retract my statement 

Id email directv and ask them so you have this in print. I'd hate to see you screwed by an uninformed CSR.


----------



## dswallow

newsposter said:


> did i read you correctly that you want to buy an HDtivo off ebay then activate it? If so, then i stand by my 1st answer that there is a commitment for 2 years. If not, then retract my statement


They will let you get away with no commitment extension when activating an owned HR10-250.


----------



## newsposter

dswallow said:


> They will let you get away with no commitment extension when activating an owned HR10-250.


1st hand experience or from someone on the forum? In all my readings I've never come across it. I thought any advanced receiver gets it.

great news though, that's for sure.

keywords so maybe someone picks this up on a search: hr10-250 commitment none needed activated used owned receiver Hdtivo


----------



## Tivo_60

dswallow said:


> They will let you get away with no commitment extension when activating an owned HR10-250.


Since my post, I searched the forum and found numerous posts mentioning no problems in activating these units, as long as they weren't previously leased, of course.


----------



## newsposter

Then i sure got ripped when i got an owned unit from newegg and was told 2 year commitment.


----------



## Rottluver

I bought an HR10-250 on ebay and activated it in October. No contract, no extension, nothing (though I have been a subscriber since 2000). The only issue they gave me was over the $4.99/mo fee because it had been previously listed as leased (even though it was purchased at Best Buy or somewhere like that by the original owner).

One call to a CSR (and then being bumped to their manager) got that wiped off and I am golden. They even list it as owned on my account now.


----------



## Tivo_60

newsposter said:


> Then i sure got ripped when i got an owned unit from newegg and was told 2 year commitment.


Not really. That was a "retail" purchase and thus the price was subsidized by D*. That kind of subsidy requires a commitment. Different than a used one from Ebay, as in the above post.They'll also let you reactivate a card from an old receiver you have laying around ( I have a p4 in my old RCA that was deactivated 3 yrs ago.


----------



## newsposter

Tivo_60 said:


> Not really. That was a "retail" purchase and thus the price was subsidized by D*. That kind of subsidy requires a commitment. Different than a used one from Ebay, as in the above post.They'll also let you reactivate a card from an old receiver you have laying around ( I have a p4 in my old RCA that was deactivated 3 yrs ago.


even reactivate an old (football?) card lol

How would they know i got the receiver at newegg unless I told them? Which i probably did to get it listed as owned vs leased. Point being I guess you could have been dishonest and told them you got it from ebay to avoid commitment.


----------



## bigpuma

newsposter said:


> even reactivate an old (football?) card lol
> 
> How would they know i got the receiver at newegg unless I told them? Which i probably did to get it listed as owned vs leased. Point being I guess you could have been dishonest and told them you got it from ebay to avoid commitment.


They would know based on the number on the receiver you have to give them when you activate it.


----------



## Tivo_60

newsposter said:


> even reactivate an old (football?) card lol
> 
> .


The P4(intro 2002) and newer can be activated.
Coincidentaly, Verizon was on our street today making the final connections so Fios will be available in about 10 days.
So it looks like the D* issues are now a moot point.


----------



## azsarge

Called DTV today and spoke with the CSR. Said 'Cancel' twice at the automated voice prompts, but not sure if I was truly dealing with the Customer Retention department. Not important, I guess

I've been DTV customer for over six years, and own both of my Tivo boxes.

Here's the deal they cut with me:

$0 New 5LNB dish delivered/installed
$0 Leased HD HR20 or HD HR21 delivered/installed
HR20 or HR21 will be replacing my DirecTV Tivo HD HR10-250 - Tivo will be sadly missed. Sniff.

-$120 Credit of $10/mo for 12 months off my basic package
-$120 Credit of $10/mo for 12 months off my HD package (which costs $10/mo so basically HD package for free for one year)

Install scheduled for 12/26 - pretty fast if you ask me, though I may refuse the install and reschedule if they show up with the HD HR21 because I want to keep my OTA antenna (and need HR20 to do so). BTW, this is per DTV instructions. Apparently, they can't simply tell the installer what model to bring. I have to refuse install, request different HD HR20, and reschedule. Ridiculous IMHO.

Additional notes:

$299 IF I wanted to upgrade my second DirecTV NON HD HR10-250 to HD HR20. Passed on this for now as I do not have 2nd HD TV and apparently this deal is available anytime I want it.

OR

$99 IF I wanted to upgrade my second DirecTV NON HD HR10-250 to NON HD HR20. Not sure why I would want to do this?? I asked the CSR and she told me MPEG2 for standard channels would NOT be going away, and thus my older Tivo would continue to function for years to come. Is this accurate? I thought I read that ALL DTV programming would be moving to MPEG4?? Also, she said there is no firm date for the cutoff of HD channels via MPEG2.

Sadly, I still got stuck with the 2-year commitment :^( . However, I could NOT justify going back to Cox Communications for cable. Hope this info helps.


----------



## headscratcher

azsarge said:


> Here's the deal they cut with me:
> 
> $0 New 5LNB dish delivered/installed
> $0 Leased HD HR20 or HD HR21 delivered/installed
> HR20 or HR21 will be replacing my DirecTV Tivo HD HR10-250 - Tivo will be sadly missed. Sniff.
> 
> -$120 Credit of $10/mo for 12 months off my basic package
> -$120 Credit of $10/mo for 12 months off my HD package (which costs $10/mo so basically HD package for free for one year)


Very nice. I went from one CSR to another to a super, and finally ended up with: 
$99 lease on an HR21 (I guess) and the install (S&H is on me)
$120 credit on the HD package

For my bounty, I spent 54 minutes in varying states of "on hold." As ammo, I repeated a few times that Dish was giving away the HD DVR and 6 months of free HD programming. And to think, I was _this_ close to upgrading at Costco for $170.


----------



## danielhart

Here is the deal I got:

Switched out 4 HR10-250's for 4 new HR21s. Free install including new 5lnb dish. Ran 4 new pairs of grounded coax from new dish about 50 feet to new multiswich under my house.

Cost: zero

plus 12 months HDTV credit and six months "appreciation" credit at 10 bucks per so total equals $180.00 credit.

btw - I switched out my own equip inside of the house - I never let installers touch my components...


----------



## rbaron

I purchased a HR-21 from CostCo. Called D* and set up an appointment for the installers to come in and hook it up.

They put a new antenna, ran a few lines into a new splitter and hooked it all up to a HD TV. I signed the paper and said bye.

Later I looked on line at my bill and saw that they charged me $69.00 for the install. I emailed them and in a few day's a guy called and after explaining that there never was a discussion regarding the installation fee, they took off the $69.00.
Pretty nice I'd say!


----------



## leftheaded

what are the current tivo models that work with directv? specifically, HD and DVR functionality


----------



## slocko

depends what you mean by work. if by work you mean get all the channels, the answer is none.

there is only one Tivo with HD capabilities that works with Direct, the HR10-250. This model is old and not available from Direct anymore. It only works with the old satellites that are mpeg2. All the new HD channels from Direct are on new satellites that are mpeg4. This means you can't get them on the 250.



leftheaded said:


> what are the current tivo models that work with directv? specifically, HD and DVR functionality


----------



## bukzin

slocko said:


> depends what you mean by work. if by work you mean get all the channels, the answer is none.
> 
> there is only one Tivo with HD capabilities that works with Direct, the HR10-250. This model is old and not available from Direct anymore. It only works with the old satellites that are mpeg2. All the new HD channels from Direct are on new satellites that are mpeg4. This means you can't get them on the 250.


I too would like some thoughts on upgrading to get the mpeg4
HD channels.
I really like my HR10-250 with 'real Tivo'.

I also have an R15 and am not impressed with the DVR program guide. I am thinking the HR-20 is very much the same in terms
of the on-screen guide, is that correct?

What are some of the more popular options for a DVR that can handle the new HD channels?

(is there a better forum for this info?)

Thanks,
Bukzin


----------



## bigpuma

bukzin said:


> What are some of the more popular options for a DVR that can handle the new HD channels?


What do you mean the more popular options? There really is only one choice for the new DirecTV HD channels. The HR20 or HR21 which are basically the same except the 21 doesn't have OTA.



> (is there a better forum for this info?)
> 
> Thanks,
> Bukzin


www.dbstalk.com


----------



## airwaves

Will Tivo ever put out a new HD unit for DirecTV users? I have the DirecTV HD HR21 and it's just not as user-friendly. It also freezes up and restarts from time to time. I just really like Tivo's interface. I'm bummed that the new Tivo HD units are made only for cable.


----------



## Anubys

airwaves said:


> Will Tivo ever put out a new HD unit for DirecTV users? I have the DirecTV HD HR21 and it's just not as user-friendly. It also freezes up and restarts from time to time. I just really like Tivo's interface. I'm bummed that the new Tivo HD units are made only for cable.


it's very doubtful...

the HR20 and HR21 have a lot of features that make them better than the current HD-Tivo...you get used to the interface after a while...the HD-Tivo is also prone to freezing and re-booting...just ask for a replacement if yours is giving you trouble...

welcome to the forum!


----------



## Rottluver

Anubys said:


> it's very doubtful...
> 
> the HR20 and HR21 have a lot of features that make them better than the current HD-Tivo...you get used to the interface after a while...the HD-Tivo is also prone to freezing and re-booting...just ask for a replacement if yours is giving you trouble...
> 
> welcome to the forum!


So DTV called me the other day and "offered me a deal". They would give me the new DTV HD DVR, upgrade my satelitte dish and give me access to HD channels (I don't get them currently) but they said I had to give them my HR10-250 in exchange. I did NOT get it from them, nor is it any kind of "lease" so I told them no thanks. They did say that if I didn't want to return my Tivo DVR then it would cost me $99 for the new HD DVR and $25 or 50 for the service call to install the new dish and what not.

Anyone having any luck getting the free upgrade without having to give up your old equipment?


----------



## Anubys

Rottluver said:


> Anyone having any luck getting the free upgrade without having to give up your old equipment?


if you can wait, I'm having the installer coming in on Friday...I'll let you know if he took the HR10s with him...


----------



## Joe Q

bukzin said:


> I too would like some thoughts on upgrading to get the mpeg4
> HD channels.
> I really like my HR10-250 with 'real Tivo'.


Your post has me curious.

I switched to Verizon FIOS a YEAR ago.

Due to the mpeg4 switch, I figured that the HR 10-250 was worthless so it is simply sitting in my closet. 
I have the original , 'virgin' disk in a static bag and the cloned 250 disk that is in the TIVO has all the cool stuff like TivoWEebPlus,etc.

Your post makes me think that maybe my HR 10-250 might be worth something and I don't mean a '$5 'type amount.

Comments please?


----------



## Anubys

Joe Q said:


> Your post has me curious.
> 
> I switched to Verizon FIOS a YEAR ago.
> 
> Due to the mpeg4 switch, I figured that the HR 10-250 was worthless so it is simply sitting in my closet.
> I have the original , 'virgin' disk in a static bag and the cloned 250 disk that is in the TIVO has all the cool stuff like TivoWEebPlus,etc.
> 
> Your post makes me think that maybe my HR 10-250 might be worth something and I don't mean a '$5 'type amount.
> 
> Comments please?


someone posted in another thread (I didn't research it myself) that they go for $50 to $100 on e-bay...


----------



## scbauer

Looks like it's time to revive this thread...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/03/hell-freezes-over-new-directv-hd-tivo-on-the-way/

I am thinking about getting rid of my Cox cable in favor of DirecTV. Thoughts?

-Scott


----------



## Anubys

scbauer said:


> Looks like it's time to revive this thread...
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/03/hell-freezes-over-new-directv-hd-tivo-on-the-way/
> 
> I am thinking about getting rid of my Cox cable in favor of DirecTV. Thoughts?
> 
> -Scott


wow...I'll believe it when I see it...but wow...

as to your question: I got rid of cable a long time ago and never looked back...DirecTV -- despite all the quirks -- is the best out there (service, offerings, and price) as far as I'm concerned...


----------



## Langree

I will find a way to get HD through D* if this happens!


----------



## mp11

scbauer said:


> Looks like it's time to revive this thread...
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/03/hell-freezes-over-new-directv-hd-tivo-on-the-way/
> 
> I am thinking about getting rid of my Cox cable in favor of DirecTV. Thoughts?
> 
> -Scott


I was considering leaving D* for cable just for Tivo.


----------



## in2psy

slocko said:


> depends what you mean by work. if by work you mean get all the channels, the answer is none.
> 
> there is only one Tivo with HD capabilities that works with Direct, the HR10-250. This model is old and not available from Direct anymore. It only works with the old satellites that are mpeg2. All the new HD channels from Direct are on new satellites that are mpeg4. This means you can't get them on the 250.


When Dtv was introducing their new DVR's the HR10-250's could get some small number of HD channels, have those been taken away? And if you have an outdoor antenna you can pick up the local channels in HD. Please advise because my wife has Dtv's latest version of the DVR and it is very frustrating compared to her experience with the HR10-250's. Can we activate the HR10-250's that we own?????


----------



## Iceblade

in2psy,

1.) Yes, the limited HD channels broadcast in MPEG2 are still available for the time being. This is supposedly going away in the near future.

2.) Yes, you can still receive OTA HD via an antenna and record it with the HR10-250

3.) Yes, you should be able to re-activate your old HR10-250 and get the same functionality you've always had. That is, until they turn off the MPEG2 HD stations on DirecTV. In which case, you'll only get HD via OTA and an antenna.

Clear as mud?

Regards,
Jeff


----------



## Rottluver

airwaves said:


> Will Tivo ever put out a new HD unit for DirecTV users? I have the DirecTV HD HR21 and it's just not as user-friendly. It also freezes up and restarts from time to time. I just really like Tivo's interface. I'm bummed that the new Tivo HD units are made only for cable.


http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


----------



## Wild Wild West

Has anyone got to keep their 250 and still get a good deal on a new HR 20?
Does anyone know how long the TiVo250 will continue to get get TiVo programing updates? I would like to keep my 250 to use for recording OTA programs but it would lose much of its appeal if the TiVo programing goes away.
Thanks for the help


----------



## Eben

Wild Wild West said:


> Has anyone got to keep their 250 and still get a good deal on a new HR 20?
> Does anyone know how long the TiVo250 will continue to get get TiVo programing updates? I would like to keep my 250 to use for recording OTA programs but it would lose much of its appeal if the TiVo programing goes away.
> Thanks for the help


When talking with the D* CSR to get my free HR21+AM21 and dish install, I was told I'd have to hand in my (owned) 10-250. On the day of install, I disconnected my 10-250 before the installer arrived and put it out of sight. After the install, he said nothing about it. After the install, I went online and moved the 10-250's location to another room, then called D* and deactivated the receiver that had been in that room. Still have my 10-250.


----------



## ashleypier

Good info, thanks for the help


----------



## Wild Wild West

Originally Posted by Wild Wild West View Post
Has anyone got to keep their 250 and still get a good deal on a new HR 20?
Does anyone know how long the TiVo250 will continue to get get TiVo programing updates? I would like to keep my 250 to use for recording OTA programs but it would lose much of its appeal if the TiVo programing goes away.
Thanks for the help

Response to above question

When talking with the D* CSR to get my free HR21+AM21 and dish install, I was told I'd have to hand in my 10-250. On the day of install, I disconnected my 10-250 before the installer arrived and put it out of sight. After the install, he said nothing about it. After the install, I went online and moved the 10-250's location to another room, then called D* and deactivated the receiver that had been in that room. Still have my 10-250.

Additional question
I still don't know how long the programing updates will be fed to to the 250. What I mean is what shows are on what channel at what time and how long would D continue to provide that info?
Thanks


----------



## Wild Wild West

Can I keep my 250 and wait until the new HD direct tivo comes out. I know I lose Sat. HD soon but how about reg definition Sat. and HD OTA. Again will D continue to provide TiVo programing info to carry me over until the new TiVo comes out?
Thanks


----------



## shibby191

Wild Wild West said:


> Can I keep my 250 and wait until the new HD direct tivo comes out. I know I lose Sat. HD soon but how about reg definition Sat. and HD OTA. Again will D continue to provide TiVo programing info to carry me over until the new TiVo comes out?
> Thanks


Sure. Since they still provide guide data to receivers 15 years old and old DVRs like the Ultimate TV that haven't been made in over 5 I think you'll be just fine with the HR10-250.


----------



## Chris Gerhard

Wild Wild West said:


> Originally Posted by Wild Wild West View Post
> Has anyone got to keep their 250 and still get a good deal on a new HR 20?
> Does anyone know how long the TiVo250 will continue to get get TiVo programing updates? I would like to keep my 250 to use for recording OTA programs but it would lose much of its appeal if the TiVo programing goes away.
> Thanks for the help
> 
> Response to above question
> 
> When talking with the D* CSR to get my free HR21+AM21 and dish install, I was told I'd have to hand in my 10-250. On the day of install, I disconnected my 10-250 before the installer arrived and put it out of sight. After the install, he said nothing about it. After the install, I went online and moved the 10-250's location to another room, then called D* and deactivated the receiver that had been in that room. Still have my 10-250.
> 
> Additional question
> I still don't know how long the programing updates will be fed to to the 250. What I mean is what shows are on what channel at what time and how long would D continue to provide that info?
> Thanks


I own my two HR10-250's so I got to keep them without question when I leased two HR20-700's about 2 years ago. If you don't own yours, I don't know why you should get to keep them.

Chris


----------



## joed32

Chris Gerhard said:


> I own my two HR10-250's so I got to keep them without question when I leased two HR20-700's about 2 years ago. If you don't own yours, I don't know why you should get to keep them.
> 
> Chris


If he's keeping it active and paying them the $4.99 per month, why not.


----------



## Eben

Wild Wild West said:


> Originally Posted by Wild Wild West View Post
> Additional question
> I still don't know how long the programing updates will be fed to to the 250. What I mean is what shows are on what channel at what time and how long would D continue to provide that info?
> Thanks


The 250 will work as long as D sends programming and guide info in MPEG2. It is possible that the little bit of D MPEG2 HD currently available (the channels in the 70s) could be dropped soon, but the rest of the SD channels and guide info should stay MPEG2 for a while.


----------



## baypo

does anyone know when tivo and dtv are coming out with the new hd dvr?


----------



## Richly917

baypo said:


> does anyone know when tivo and dtv are coming out with the new hd dvr?


According to their Web site they will offer it in the second half of 2009. That's all they said about it. You can read it on their Web site.


----------



## Tucker2

My question concerning HR10-250&#8217;s is I&#8217;m currently using a dual LNB round dish with an SD DirecTV/Tivo PVR with a 120 MB hard drive. I&#8217;ve just ordered a Plasma HD 46&#8221; TV. What I think I want to do is buy a used DR10-250 and a new SL 5PIG-Z dish until DirecTV comes out with the new TiVo box at the end of 2009. My thinking is that since my current box only has S-Video, by going to the HR10-250 I will gain HDMI to the TV. This should, in my thinking make the SD picture better and integrate Off Air HD signals from the locals. I am aware of the lack of MPG4 reception of the unit and will probably not pay the extra for Direct&#8217;s HD service and will just receive SD via the satellite like I do now.

So what do you guys think? Is this worth doing? I&#8217;ve tried DirecTV box without TiVo and do not think I want to go that route. I live in a rural area and satellite is my only option.


----------



## Anubys

Tucker2 said:


> My question concerning HR10-250s is Im currently using a dual LNB round dish with an SD DirecTV/Tivo PVR with a 120 MB hard drive. Ive just ordered a Plasma HD 46 TV. What I think I want to do is buy a used DR10-250 and a new SL 5PIG-Z dish until DirecTV comes out with the new TiVo box at the end of 2009. My thinking is that since my current box only has S-Video, by going to the HR10-250 I will gain HDMI to the TV. This should, in my thinking make the SD picture better and integrate Off Air HD signals from the locals. I am aware of the lack of MPG4 reception of the unit and will probably not pay the extra for Directs HD service and will just receive SD via the satellite like I do now.
> 
> So what do you guys think? Is this worth doing? Ive tried DirecTV box without TiVo and do not think I want to go that route. I live in a rural area and satellite is my only option.


I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing...the cost would be minimal ($50, maybe?) to get an HR10-250 since many people have no use for them anymore...and you get to watch OTA in HD...

seems like a waste, in my opinion, of a 46" plasma to not get the HD service...I don't know your reasons for not wanting the non-tivo HD DVR (I hated the idea at first as well) but you need to keep in mind that if history is any indication, the new Tivo DVR will probably be delayed...hey, it could come out early for all I know, but that's not what has happened in the past...on top of that, you'll be dealing with a new machine and software, with all the bugs that come with that...

long story short: what you propose will work but I recommend that you reconsider your decision


----------



## newsposter

Tucker2 said:


> My question concerning HR10-250s is Im currently using a dual LNB round dish with an SD DirecTV/Tivo PVR with a 120 MB hard drive. Ive just ordered a Plasma HD 46 TV. What I think I want to do is buy a used DR10-250 and a new SL 5PIG-Z dish until DirecTV comes out with the new TiVo box at the end of 2009. My thinking is that since my current box only has S-Video, by going to the HR10-250 I will gain HDMI to the TV. This should, in my thinking make the SD picture better and integrate Off Air HD signals from the locals. I am aware of the lack of MPG4 reception of the unit and will probably not pay the extra for Directs HD service and will just receive SD via the satellite like I do now.


If you watch a lot of OTA, then i'd say you will do just fine. I use my HDtivo for SD and OTA and put all the mpeg4 stuff on the HR20..no SD stuff goes on the HR20 (the real reason is tuner 2 doesnt work well but that's another story)

on CRT RPTV i know hdmi did make a big difference but on plasma, i dont know if hdmi will improve the pic or not. I ran my T60 S vid vs HDtivo with hdmi side by side for a while and the hdtivo was definitely better.


----------



## Anubys

Tucker2 said:


> My question concerning HR10-250s is Im currently using a dual LNB round dish with an SD DirecTV/Tivo PVR with a 120 MB hard drive. Ive just ordered a Plasma HD 46 TV. What I think I want to do is buy a used DR10-250 and a new SL 5PIG-Z dish until DirecTV comes out with the new TiVo box at the end of 2009. My thinking is that since my current box only has S-Video, by going to the HR10-250 I will gain HDMI to the TV. This should, in my thinking make the SD picture better and integrate Off Air HD signals from the locals. I am aware of the lack of MPG4 reception of the unit and will probably not pay the extra for Directs HD service and will just receive SD via the satellite like I do now.
> 
> So what do you guys think? Is this worth doing? Ive tried DirecTV box without TiVo and do not think I want to go that route. I live in a rural area and satellite is my only option.


just saw this post on  dbstalk ...looks like the new HD Tivo is delayed till 2010 with some speculation that there are problems...

my advice is to take what is currently available and upgrade if the new stuff is all that great...life is too short to wait for the "next best thing"...


----------



## magicsquid

This may be a silly question, but is it possible to use a "regular" TiVo HD (with two cable card slots in the front) with DirecTV?

I currently am on Time Warner cable using a single multi-stream cable card, but am looking to switch to something else. Is it possible to continue using my existing TiVo HD if I switch to DirecTV?


----------



## classicsat

Nope. That box has no inputs or control for satellite receivers. It has only RF inputs. The TiVo HD only works with antenna or a QAM cable service with cablecards.

For DirecTV, your choice is their non-TiVo HD DVR or new DirecTV TiVo when it is released, existing DirecTV TiVos which practically are SD only, or a direcTV with a Standalone TiVo, also will be SD, and single tuner also.


----------



## annoyed99

Sorry for not reading this whole thread, (this is probably old news) but I wanted to share something I heard today. I got an email from directv a couple days ago thanking me for being a loyal customer since 1998 and asking for my feedback. I sent them a note saying I wanted them to bring back Tivo and that I don't like my hr20 dvr interface.

They replied and said they expect to have a new HD tivo receiver in the second half of this year.

I can't wait. I sure hope they don't cripple it.

-K


----------



## robpickles

Wow! This hasn't been updated in some time. The new Tivo HD reciever is not coming out until 2010 now.

Rob


----------



## Sandlapper

robpickles said:


> Wow! This hasn't been updated in some time. The new Tivo HD reciever is not coming out until 2010 now.
> 
> Rob


2010? Do you have a press release about this?


----------



## sjberra

Sandlapper said:


> 2010? Do you have a press release about this?


it was reported in the otehr thread concerning this - and over on dbstalk in their thread


----------



## shibby191

Sandlapper said:


> 2010? Do you have a press release about this?


Yea, what sjberra said. Tivo announced the delay to 2010 6 months ago now. No further details other then Tivo said in their latest quarterly call that they still planned on the new DirecTV box as soon as they could in 2010...whatever that means.

DirecTV still barely acknowledges Tivo at all in their financial and quarterly calls.

So who really knows other then Tivo says sometime in 2010.


----------



## HiDefGator

www.solidsignal.com

just buy one big enough and you won't need to cascade them.


----------



## jhrain

I spoke to DTV today to complain about another failed HR21 box.. the Account Retention rep I spoke to say her boss said TIVO documentation is being printed now and expect customers to place pre-orders soon. Because I was speaking to someone here in the U.S. and she was a TIVO Devotee.. I am inclined to listen. I hope she's right. I can't wait to sink these DTV DVR's..


----------



## bigpuma

jhrain said:


> I spoke to DTV today to complain about another failed HR21 box.. the Account Retention rep I spoke to say her boss said TIVO documentation is being printed now and expect customers to place pre-orders soon. Because I was speaking to someone here in the U.S. and she was a TIVO Devotee.. I am inclined to listen. I hope she's right. I can't wait to sink these DTV DVR's..


Never listen to a CSR.


----------



## joed32

bigpuma said:


> Never listen to a CSR.


You got that right!


----------



## Joey303

When I asked last week, the CSR said that the new DirecTivo would be out in "a couple of weeks." I hope so.


----------



## whitepelican

Joey303 said:


> When I asked last week, the CSR said that the new DirecTivo would be out in "a couple of weeks." I hope so.


Look two posts above yours.


----------



## sjberra

Joey303 said:


> When I asked last week, the CSR said that the new DirecTivo would be out in "a couple of weeks." I hope so.


sorry, a level 1 csr will not have any accurate information, if the unit would be out in "a couple of weeks" the boards would be awash with speculation and FUD posts.


----------



## sluciani

Joey303 said:


> When I asked last week, the CSR said that the new DirecTivo would be out in "a couple of weeks." I hope so.


In the Q&A following yesterday's earnings conference call, Tom Rogers said "latter part" of this year. In previous calls, he's said "2009", "late 2009" and "2010".


----------



## dswallow

sluciani said:


> In the Q&A following yesterday's earnings conference call, Tom Rogers said "latter part" of this year. In previous calls, he's said "2009", "late 2009" and "2010".


In other words it's been on schedule for the last 4 quarters, due: "6 months from now."


----------



## plazman30

sjberra said:


> sorry, a level 1 csr will not have any accurate information, if the unit would be out in "a couple of weeks" the boards would be awash with speculation and FUD posts.


When I called a few weeks ago, I was told that there was "no information" on Tivo availability.

Andy


----------



## sjberra

plazman30 said:


> When I called a few weeks ago, I was told that there was "no information" on Tivo availability.
> 
> Andy


which is the only accurate/truthful statement a level 1 tsr can give you, doubt everything else concerning when and how much when speaking to them.


----------



## shibby191

sjberra said:


> which is the only accurate/truthful statement a level 1 tsr can give you, doubt everything else concerning when and how much when speaking to them.


Especially when the Tivo CEO is saying nothing more specific then "later in 2010", what kind of specific dates or info do people expect from a CSR barely making minumum wage and will be burnt out and off to another job in less then 6 months? I think people expect waaaaaay to much from CSRs in companies these days. You will get *accurate* and timely information on forums like this and DBSTalk well before CSRs have the information in hand.


----------



## ibmman69

I'm really discouraged with the DTV HD Tivo delay. I just bought my first HDTV and am ready to upgrade from my DSR6000, but don't want the crap DTV DVR. SDTV looks really crappy on my nice new TV.

I know as soon as I order the new HD Tivo will come out the next month and I'll be stuck in a 2yr contract. I think I will at least wait for the HR24 DTV DVR because it should be out very soon.

I love Tivo and prefer to support the originators, not imitators, of revolutionary ideas.


----------



## sjberra

shibby191 said:


> Especially when the Tivo CEO is saying nothing more specific then "later in 2010", what kind of specific dates or info do people expect from a CSR barely making minumum wage and will be burnt out and off to another job in less then 6 months? I think people expect waaaaaay to much from CSRs in companies these days. You will get *accurate* and timely information on forums like this and DBSTalk well before CSRs have the information in hand.


bottom line is and will always be until it is in pipleline in quantity and in use by more then a few people any speculation or "unsurpased informtion" is nothing but blue smoke and mirrors.


----------



## id2.1k

ibmman69 said:


> I'm really discouraged with the DTV HD Tivo delay. I just bought my first HDTV and am ready to upgrade from my DSR6000, but don't want the crap DTV DVR. SDTV looks really crappy on my nice new TV.
> 
> I know as soon as I order the new HD Tivo will come out the next month and I'll be stuck in a 2yr contract. I think I will at least wait for the HR24 DTV DVR because it should be out very soon.
> 
> I love Tivo and prefer to support the originators, not imitators, of revolutionary ideas.


ok, so how does the DirecTV contract work with equipment?

if i sign up as a new customer and lease from Directv, do i get a choice of equipment? or do i just get whatever equipment the guy has in his truck that will do what i signed up for?

if i lease equipment, and i get, say, an HR23, and then later a new DTV Tivo device comes out, is there any way to upgrade to that DTV Tivo device under the lease terms?

i realize anything regarding this phantom new DTV HD Tivo is conjecture at this point, but, how did it work with the previous DTV Tivo units, and, for that matter, successive equipment upgrades from DTV itself?


----------



## stevel

1. You get what is on the truck, no matter what the CSR promises you.

2. Whether an upgrade will be possible is unknown. Most likely it will be treated as a new box triggering a new 2-year commitment and a new "lease upgrade" fee.


----------



## id2.1k

stevel said:


> 1. You get what is on the truck, no matter what the CSR promises you.
> 
> 2. Whether an upgrade will be possible is unknown. Most likely it will be treated as a new box triggering a new 2-year commitment and a new "lease upgrade" fee.


yeah, ok, that makes sense (from a DTV point of view anyway).

when they came out with the old DTV Tivo, could you just buy it and move your service onto it?


----------



## TonyD79

id2.1k said:


> yeah, ok, that makes sense (from a DTV point of view anyway).
> 
> when they came out with the old DTV Tivo, could you just buy it and move your service onto it?


Probably. And probably reup your 2 year commitment from that date.

(You said buy. Although you can buy DirecTV boxes, that is quite pricey. Typically you are actually paying up front on a lease, even when you walk into Costco or Best Buy.)

The only way to control what box you get unless you are in an MRV test area and therefore get the HR24, is to "buy" one from a third party that is affiliated with DirecTV such as Costco or Best Buy.


----------



## smcpartlin

Well we have an OFfice package with several units. 3 of the older HD tivo's and DirecTV is pestering us to replace the units with their mpeg-4 units... 

Replace the dishes and the units for free. I told them no. I want the HD Tivo unit that should have been out last year.

Or I would accept DirecTV cable Cards if they would come out with that.

So far nothing.

Our installer for the Chicagoland area claims they spoke to DirecTV upper management and there are no plans to release Tivio units any time in the near future.


----------



## shibby191

smcpartlin said:


> there are no plans to release Tivio units any time in the near future.


Well what they say is true. There is no date for any new unit, only "later this year" from the Tivo CEO. Obviously DirecTV can't give you a release date when Tivo themselves don't even know.


----------



## sjberra

id2.1k said:


> yeah, ok, that makes sense (from a DTV point of view anyway).
> 
> when they came out with the old DTV Tivo, could you just buy it and move your service onto it?


there is a HR2X that can be purchased outright - theHR21-Pro, last time I looked the sale price was right arounf 499.00, adding this box will not trigger a commitment - although you may have to get to the access card department to get it straightened out, it seems no tier 1 csr can add a unit without triggering the commitment.

Keep in mind you will probably have to pay for a dish and installation if you go the HR21-Pro route


----------



## id2.1k

sjberra said:


> there is a HR2X that can be purchased outright - theHR21-Pro, last time I looked the sale price was right arounf 499.00, adding this box will not trigger a commitment - although you may have to get to the access card department to get it straightened out, it seems no tier 1 csr can add a unit without triggering the commitment.
> 
> Keep in mind you will probably have to pay for a dish and installation if you go the HR21-Pro route


so how do the directv "buy" options from DVRupgrade and weaknees (both sponsors of this site, above) work? what kind of relationship are you getting into with directv using one of those options? do you own whatever box you "buy"?

obviously they don't have the new directv hd tivo for sale, but if/when they do, would it be possible to then "buy" the directv hd tivo unit and move service to it? (triggering a new lease shouldn't be an issue, presumably if you buy a directv hd tivo unit, you're planning on sticking with directv).


----------



## vurbano

shibby191 said:


> Well what they say is true. There is no date for any new unit, only "later this year" from the Tivo CEO. Obviously DirecTV can't give you a release date when Tivo themselves don't even know.


Tivo has a contract with Directv and I can guarantee you it doesnt say "whenever" and I can guarantee you they both know the date.


----------



## shibby191

vurbano said:


> Tivo has a contract with Directv and I can guarantee you it doesnt say "whenever" and I can guarantee you they both know the date.


Come on now, be real. It's already been delayed twice so whatever "date" is in the contract has already been passed twice. And of course whatever date is in the contract isn't going to be shared to the public.


----------



## shibby191

id2.1k said:


> so how do the directv "buy" options from DVRupgrade and weaknees (both sponsors of this site, above) work? what kind of relationship are you getting into with directv using one of those options? do you own whatever box you "buy"?
> 
> obviously they don't have the new directv hd tivo for sale, but if/when they do, would it be possible to then "buy" the directv hd tivo unit and move service to it? (triggering a new lease shouldn't be an issue, presumably if you buy a directv hd tivo unit, you're planning on sticking with directv).


Not sure why you'd want to actually buy it. You end up paying less by leasing even with the commitment.

Lease - Pay $99 for upgrade (many get it free). Early termination fee is $20 per month left on the 24 month commitment.

Buy/Own - $499.

Both charge the same $4.99 monthly fee if it's not your only receiver, if it is your only receiver then there is no monthly fee for either.

So let's say you stay with DirecTV at least 6 more months (why would you quit it right away?) your ETF would be $360. So couple that with your up front you're at $460. I guess you could eBay the owned receiver and you might get $40-50 for it. So the cost end up being about the same. Every month you stay over and above 6 months you save money by leasing over owning.

I never have understood the big deal people make about the commitment or trying to actually own it. Unless you leave the very next month it's almost always cheaper to actually lease. Plus if you lease and it breaks they will replace it at their cost. If you own and it breaks you're SOL, you will pay for a replacement.

Only reason I can see to not be in a commitment is if you're one that "chases the deal" every year and switches providers. If that's the case good luck finding one that doesn't make you commit to something for the new sub deals, heck even FIOS and many cable companies put you 1-2 year commitments now for the best deals. Charter around here puts you in a 2 yr commitment to get their triple play pack deal.

Choice is yours, there is no "right" answer.


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## id2.1k

shibby191 said:


> Not sure why you'd want to actually buy it. You end up paying less by leasing even with the commitment.
> ...
> Choice is yours, there is no "right" answer.


i guess i'm trying to do a couple of things, but my understanding of the basic situation may be incorrect. i'm trying to:

1. "own" a directv tivo hd outright (when it appears), and not lease the physical unit.
2. "own" the tivo service on that tivo, and not have to pay monthly for that service.
3. pay only the monthly fee for the directv *programming* (and maybe the dish fee, though that one is maybe debatable too.)

i have no idea how directv and tivo would work out their arrangement though, and what fees would be wrapped up in whatever other fees. i just know that i've gotten tremendous mileage and value out of my series *one* tivo with lifetime service over the past 9 years. i'd like to see if i can replicate that with HD and directv.


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## samo

id2.1k said:


> i guess i'm trying to do a couple of things, but my understanding of the basic situation may be incorrect. i'm trying to:
> 
> 1. "own" a directv tivo hd outright (when it appears), and not lease the physical unit.
> 2. "own" the tivo service on that tivo, and not have to pay monthly for that service.
> 3. pay only the monthly fee for the directv *programming* (and maybe the dish fee, though that one is maybe debatable too.)
> 
> i have no idea how directv and tivo would work out their arrangement though, and what fees would be wrapped up in whatever other fees. i just know that i've gotten tremendous mileage and value out of my series *one* tivo with lifetime service over the past 9 years. i'd like to see if i can replicate that with HD and directv.


Not possible.
1. New unit will be available for lease only.
2. You will be paying monthly sub fees to DirecTV. Lifetime option will not be available.
3. You will be paying for programming, HD fees, additional receiver fees and whatever additional fees DirecTV will charge for TiVo.


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## id2.1k

samo said:


> Not possible.
> 1. New unit will be available for lease only.
> 2. You will be paying monthly sub fees to DirecTV. Lifetime option will not be available.
> 3. You will be paying for programming, HD fees, additional receiver fees and whatever additional fees DirecTV will charge for TiVo.


any educated guesses out there as to $ amount for premiums that will be associated with the new dtv tivo hd?


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## shibby191

id2.1k said:


> any educated guesses out there as to $ amount for premiums that will be associated with the new dtv tivo hd?


Nobody knows and there have been no hints. Many think it might be in the $3-$5 a month range but who knows, could be 2 bucks, could be 10.

But it's no different then a stand alone Tivo, you *will* be paying a monthly fee no matter what. Only difference is no lifetime option. With this new box Tivo feels that people will pay more for it and DirecTV is happy to pass that extra cost on.

But counting on anything is really setting yourself up for disappointment. Right now the new DirecTivo doesn't exist, it's basically vaporware that has been delayed twice already. It's getting to the point it will be surprising to see it out by the end of the year. So I personally wouldn't make any decisions on the hope this box comes out this year, if ever.


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## smcpartlin

OK so we will have to lease it... how is that going to effect people that hack the tivo box to enable features that have been turned off.

Most noteably is the ethernet port and the ability to access stored programming on the HD so you can drag the video off of the Tivo and play on a laptop/ computer whatever.... We have the 10-250 HD Tivo and I know there are plenty of hacks that let you do this. We never did it because it wasn't worth the trouble.

If we don't own the boxes then they could come and swap out the box any time they wanted. (they may even have the right to fine you for messing with their hardware) Thus I hope there is a way to just buy the box through someone at some "full" price allowing you to mess with the software to a certain degree.

Personally I would just say this:

If DirecTV just made a cable card adapter so a Windows Media Center PC could become the DVR for HD SAT content I think the Tivio might go the way of the dodo. I would just set up 2 to 4 Media Center "servers" and start recording all the content that my viewer would want... then archive everything on huge data stores... purging when we get over 20-40 TB the oldest/least desired content. Allowing realtime streaming of "live" programming for x number of users and your done. This would also be the cheaper method for bars to show programming accross multiple TV's. and far simpler. (maybe not cheap for the ave home user but cheaper then what places like BW3's does now)

But as it seems there is no option for Cable Cards for DirecTV (would call em' something diffrent I guess if they did)

We have no idea when a new DirecTV unit with Tivio will ship, we only can assume we can't buy it, and we have no idea but assume adv features will be crippled on the units. Slingbox is trying to get time-shifting built right into the boxes for DISH network (some may already have the feature) and they are trying to really get it going.... It's a very nice function if you have good internet connections. I doubt we can expect something similar from DirecTV.

I'm more than fed up with DirecTV. We don't want to switch to cable. Plus we don't a crap DVR. If it's not a Tivio it's most likely crap.


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## stevel

I fully expect that the new TiVo box will not be hackable.


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## id2.1k

stevel said:


> I fully expect that the new TiVo box will not be hackable.


then that would be an electronics industry first then, wouldn't it?


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## shibby191

id2.1k said:


> then that would be an electronics industry first then, wouldn't it?


Eh? None of the DirecTV DVRs are "hackable" and the DirecTV had a huge issue with the old DirecTivo's being hackable, thus why the last DirecTivo model was only hackable with a hardware chip hack (if I remember correctly). You can bet good money that DirecTV won't let this new DirecTivo on the market if it is hackable, especially in terms of taking content off the hard drive. It was announced to "run on the DirecTV network platform". Thus you can also bet that if it has MRV it will be DirecTV's version of MRV, not Tivo's. It will most certainly not have Tivo 2 Go on it. If you're expecting anything beyond the Tivo UI and what comes with that (wishlists, suggestions, etc) then you're going to be disappointed. Certainly we don't know for sure but in taking what is publicly known along with the SEC filings, the past DirecTivo units and what DirecTV is trying to build, these are good bets to make.


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## id2.1k

shibby191 said:


> Eh? None of the DirecTV DVRs are "hackable" and the DirecTV had a huge issue with the old DirecTivo's being hackable, thus why ...


hey, ok, i'll take your word for it. but i suspect directv dvr's "aren't hackable" because there's no real incentive to do so. if there were a payoff, i'd bet it could be hacked.


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## stevel

There's as much an incentive as there is for TiVos. People have tried.


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## biarmafterb

mdgm wrote:Well you should follow chirpas advice and contact tech support.


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## toobleu

For what it is worth, I talked to a field technician the other day, and he claimed to have actually seen the new DirecTV HD Tivo at some tech forum. He had no idea when it would be released, but felt that if they are showing it to techs, it might be in the next few months.


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## litzdog911

toobleu said:


> For what it is worth, I talked to a field technician the other day, and he claimed to have actually seen the new DirecTV HD Tivo at some tech forum. He had no idea when it would be released, but felt that if they are showing it to techs, it might be in the next few months.


Current rumors are this summer.


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## mtgranny

I have tried to stay loyal to TiVo for 8+years. I moved 5 years ago. I have no antenna service. I have no Cable service. I have 3 TiVos unusable except for Tivo games and podcast, streaming, etc. I am stuck with Direct TV. I am stuck with promises that a DTV-TiVo HD unit will be out "next year". I am beginning to lose faith. Being without TiVo TV programming for 5 years has about weaned me off the desire to return. The only winner in all this is DTV and TiVo. Both are getting money from me and neither seem interested in providing me with DTV-TiVo HD service. It is time for me to set a deadline of my own and move on. Perhaps by June 1st. If nothing then, I need to get over my grieving and find a way to enjoy HD program capture on my home networked computers.


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## litzdog911

mtgranny said:


> I have tried to stay loyal to TiVo for 8+years. I moved 5 years ago. I have no antenna service. I have no Cable service. I have 3 TiVos unusable except for Tivo games and podcast, streaming, etc. I am stuck with Direct TV. I am stuck with promises that a DTV-TiVo HD unit will be out "next year". I am beginning to lose faith. Being without TiVo TV programming for 5 years has about weaned me off the desire to return. The only winner in all this is DTV and TiVo. Both are getting money from me and neither seem interested in providing me with DTV-TiVo HD service. It is time for me to set a deadline of my own and move on. Perhaps by June 1st. If nothing then, I need to get over my grieving and find a way to enjoy HD program capture on my home networked computers.


Set your deadline a couple months later and I think you'll be happy. Latest rumors are that the new HD DirecTivo should appear this summer.


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## Rainy Dave

What is "TiVo TV programming"?


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## Stoystown

I have DirecTv. Until about 6 months ago, I had a DirecTv SD Tivo. Then it died, and they sent out a new direcTv SD dvr. 

It's ok.

My in-laws have an DirecTv HD dvr.

It's ok too.

The day I can get an HD Tivo on DirecTV, I will order it. I would pay the box fee, plus $5 a month for the Tivo software, above the DVR fee. No question. I have been waiting to do so for more than a year. 

If I could get baseball games and ESPN over the air, I would get a stand alone Tivo with lifetime and cancel my DirecTv. But I can't. I pay my DirecTv bill every month for the sports programming. I get a bunch of shopping channels, a few movie channels (the free ones) and HGTV tossed in on top. I know that's not what the contract says, but that's how I perceive it.


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## Rcrew

litzdog911 said:


> Set your deadline a couple months later and I think you'll be happy. Latest rumors are that the new HD DirecTivo should appear this summer.


Hey Dog! 3 months later, any rumor updates? I'm happily sitting here 10 years with my SD TiVos, but planning the switch to HD. Had occasion to actually talk to DirecTV this morning, and they offered me free HD hardward, but of course not TiVoHD.

Sometime between now and 12 month I will have a new HD TV ready for inputs of some kind! Still hope it will be TiVo software.

TIA for any updates you know of.


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## litzdog911

Nothing good. Looks like it's still a few months away. Crazy, huh?


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## bajabingo

wow this thread is old


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## bukzin

OK, today is Dec 4th.

Any new thoughts on Tivo programming?


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## litzdog911

bukzin said:


> OK, today is Dec 4th.
> 
> Any new thoughts on Tivo programming?


Rumors are that the new DirecTV/Tivo will be released this month.


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## bukzin

Is that the HR-34 that I heard about?

Any details?


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## stevel

No, it is not the HR34.


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## bukzin

Could you give us more detail?

features, model number, when we can buy/rent it?


Thanks!


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## stevel

Nobody knows yet. When (if) it makes its appearance I am sure you will read about it here.


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## Rainy Dave

bukzin said:


> Could you give us more detail?
> 
> features, model number, when we can buy/rent it?
> 
> Thanks!


THR22. You currently can't get it. Should be available from DirecTv, Solidsignal.com when it is released.


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## vader88

I just got off the phone with DirecTv complaining about my HR21 and it's slowness. Was asking about getting a HR24 and while talking I asked about the Tivo. She looked it up and said it launches Dec 8, 2011. The price is 199.00 and if I renew my contract it would be 99.00. The Tivo service is 5.00 additional, I don't know if this is in addition to the DVR charge we already paid. I'm supposed to call back and get the deal, but not sure which way I'm going to go yet, I do miss my Tivo though.


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## litzdog911

vader88 said:


> I just got off the phone with DirecTv complaining about my HR21 and it's slowness. Was asking about getting a HR24 and while talking I asked about the Tivo. She looked it up and said it launches Dec 8, 2011. The price is 199.00 and if I renew my contract it would be 99.00. The Tivo service is 5.00 additional, I don't know if this is in addition to the DVR charge we already paid. I'm supposed to call back and get the deal, but not sure which way I'm going to go yet, I do miss my Tivo though.


Yes, the extra $5/mo is a Tivo fee that's in addition to your current DVR fee.


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## BlackBetty

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=10979789


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## feldon23

Backup of the original FAQ:



Spoiler












*CableLabs/OTA HD TiVo* -- Fall 2006 release










At the CES 2006 show, TiVo announced a standalone *HD TiVo* prototype with two CableCard tuners and Over-the-Air (OTA 8VSB) ATSC tuners. The unit was capable of receiving, recording, and performing all TiVo functions on local analog Cable and digital Cable and digital HDTV Cable broadcasts as well as digital HDTV over-the-air broadcasts. *More information on this Series 3 TiVo, which will be released in mid-to-late 2006, will be made available in a companion FAQ.*

In 2003, TiVo demoed a standalone *HD TiVo* prototype with two *Over-the-Air (OTA 8VSB) ATSC tuners*. The unit was capable of receiving, recording and performing all TiVo functions on local digital/HDTV broadcasts received through an antenna. Lack of market interest stalled further development.









*DirecTV HD TiVo* -- April 21st, 2004

 Back of HDTiVo

In April 2004, DirecTV launched the *DirecTV HR10-250 DirecTV with TiVo* with 250GB capacity offering ~30 hours of high definition, ~200 hours of standard definition recording, or any combination of the two. *Actual recording time will vary depending on the type of programming being recorded. [Press Release...]
[ Specifications Front ] [ Specifications Back ]

DirecTV HD TiVos contain 2 *DirecTV SD/HD/OTA tuners* (a total of 3 coax inputs) which can receive/record standard definition and high definition programming from DirecTV as well as local digital/HDTV broadcasts brought in by an antenna. 2 tuners means 2 different shows can be recorded simultaneously.

DirecTV HD TiVos were introduced with an MSRP of $999 but can now be found for $400 or less.

*What is the future of the DirecTV HD TiVo?*

After the acquisition of DirecTV by Rupert Murdoch, DirecTV announced the dissolution of their partnership with TiVo and introduced their own competing DVRs developed by Murdoch's partner company NDS. The NDS-designed standard definition DirecTV DVR was released in October 2005 and the High Definition NDS DVR is slated for a mid-2006 release. In light of this news, TiVo has introduced a standalone OTA/CableCard TiVo and is also developing a DVR with Comcast.

DirecTV TiVos and DirecTV HD TiVos will continue to function for an indefinite period but DirecTV HD TiVos will not be able to receive the HDTV programming DirecTV intends to roll out through 2006 and 2007, specifically local channels over satellite. This is because this new programming is in MPEG-4 and will be broadcast from different satellite orbital locations, neither of which the TiVo models recognize.

*What ports and cables does the DirecTV HD TiVo include?*

DirecTV HD TiVo ports include two USB2.0 ports (reserved for future use), 1 Component (RGB) video output, 1 HDMI output, 1 S-Video output, 1 Composite video output, 1 Stereo audio output, 1 SPD/IF Optical output, and 1 Modem jack.

DirecTV HD TiVos ship with these cables: Coax F-type (for satellite), RCA (Yellow/red/white), S-Video, Component (red-green-blue cable which is PbPrY standard), HDMI-DVI adapter, HDMI-HDMI cable, Optical (Dolby Digital), Power.

The *High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI)* connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is the only digital video output on the HD TiVo. Component video is high definition but not actually digital. An HDMI cable is included, as is a DVI-to-HDMI adapter.

*NOTE*: HDTVs with HDMI or DVI ports that are not running HDCP may not receive a picture through the HDMI port for certain PPV and sports programming at the broadcaster's discretion.

*What output formats/resizing does this DirecTV HD TiVo support?*

The DirecTV HD TiVo always displays programming at the selected output resolution. If the TiVo is set to output 1080i, then 720p shows (from ABC or ESPN) will be converted to 1080i prior to display. If you wish, and your HDTV does a better job natively displaying 720p, then you may change the output resolution to 720p when watching 720p material (there is, unfortunately, no on-screen indication of the source material's format).

*NOTE:* There is no "native" mode where the output format is automatically switched to match the source material.

You can change the output format the TiVo is using through a Setup menu or by simply pressing the UP arrow on the remote while watching a program. The output resolutions the TiVo will toggle between are 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.

*NOTE:* DirecTV HD TiVos WILL NOT output a composite (S-Video/yellow RCA) signal simultaneously with an HD signal (Downconversion). Don't throw away that standard DirecTV TiVo just yet!

DirecTV HDTiVos can only display a standard definition picture (over S-Video or Composite video outputs) if the TiVo is set to 480i display.

DirecTV HDTiVos have *Stretch Modes* allowing you to display 16:9 or 4:3 material stretched to fit 16:9 Widescreen HDTVs or 4:3 digital TVs. There are no zoom/crop/justify (aka "coke bottle") modes but these may be added later in software upgrades.

*Will the DirecTV HD TiVos support Home Media Option and Networking?*

DirecTV HD TiVos run a variant of the same 3.1 software seen on the current DirecTV TiVos. *Neither version 4.0 of the software nor Home Media Option networked media features are expected.*

*Where can I see a demo of the DirecTV HR10-250 with TiVo?*

http://zdnet.com.com/1601-2-5141247.html

*What hardware do I need from DirecTV?*

Most DirecTV customers have a round dish with a single dual LNBF 'head'. This enables them to receive programming from DirecTV's main satellite positioned at the 101 degrees.

HDTV, Spanish, and Chinese programming all require an elliptical (oval) dish with 2 or 3 LNBF 'heads'. This adds the ability to receive programming from DirecTV's three MPEG-2 satellites at 101, 110, and 119 degrees. Older DirecTV elliptical dishes come with 2 LNBFs 'heads' (101 and 119) and a space in between. A 'Sat C Kit' will give your older dish the ability to see 110.

Phase III DirecTV elliptical dishes have the circuitry necessary to receive all 3 satellites sealed inside the 'arm' of the dish. DirecTV enthusiasts have also been known to use 3 separate round dishes, each pointed at 101, 110, and 119 degree positions!

You can also use the new 5LNB Ka/Ku 'superdish' from DirecTV with the HR10-250 HD TiVo, but you will not be able to record any high definition channels which are in MPEG-4 format (specifically local channels and eventually the entire lineup of HDTV channels on DirecTV).

DirecTV HDTV programming at 110:
*ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, Discovery HD, HDNet Movies, Showtime HD*

DirecTV HDTV programming at 119:
*HDNet, HBO HD, HD Pay-per-view*










All elliptical dishes either have a 4x4 multiswitch bolted onto the back of the dish (101/119), or integrated into the arm of the dish (Phase III).

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.

To take full advantage of a DirecTV with TiVo or DirecTV HD TiVo receiver/recorder, you must have TWO wires from the dish/multiswitch connected to them. Ordinary DirecTV receivers each require ONE wire from the dish/multiswitch.

*1 room wired for HD* (less trouble, more economical)
Using a 2xX multiswitch to provide the 101 satellite to certain receivers and still having 2 outputs which can see all 3 satellites (101/110/119).

*All rooms wired for HD* (future proof)
Using a cascading 4x8 multiswitch to provide 8 outputs which can see all 3 satellites (101/110/119).

A DirecTV with TiVo HDTV receiver and the appropriate dish are the only equipment you need to receive and record the HDTV programming offered by DirecTV.

*What DirecTV HDTV packages are available?*









plus *ESPN 2*!

DirecTV customers with the HBO and Showtime packages can (with an HDTV receiver and the right dish) also receive the corresponding *HBO HD* and/or *Showtime HD* channel.

DirecTV also offers a premium package of HDTV channels for $9.99. This presently includes *HDNet, HDNet Movies, Discovery HD,* *ESPN HD*, and *ESPN 2 HD*. Subscribers to *NFL Sunday Ticket* and/or *NBA HDTV* will get to see selected games in HD on those channels but may need to purchase the exhorbitant *NFL Sunday Ticket SUPERFAN* add-on package. And finally, *Spice TV* now presents selected adult video entertainment in High Definition on DirecTV's PPV channel.

DirecTV offers _local_ networks in High Definition using the new MPEG-4 format which cannot be viewed or recorded on any TiVo device.

DirecTV offers *CBS HD New York* and *Los Angeles* to certain customers who qualify. If you currently receive CBS as a 'Distant Local' from New York or Los Angeles, then you qualify for *CBS-HD NY/LA* from DirecTV.

Also, if you live in one of the following markets, you may also qualify for *CBS-HD NY/LA* from DirecTV: Austin, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, Marquette, Miami, Minneapolis, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Green Bay.

Also, if you live in one of the following markets, you may also qualify for *Fox-ED NY/LA* from DirecTV: Atlanta, Austin, Birmingham, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Greensboro, Houston, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Memphis, Milwaukee, New York, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Tampa, and Washington DC.

[ More Info... ]


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## feldon23

_Coming out of extreme lurking just to update this old FAQ._

Hopefully a moderator can rename the thread to:
*** DirecTV HD TiVo HR10-250 Legacy FAQ ***

and then someone can create a new FAQ about the *DirecTV HD TiVo THR22*.


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## timth30

what is HD TiVo And HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ TiVo Community


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## sk33t3r

I called DTV the other day to replace a standard receiver and inquired about the THR22 and was told I could get it, and I am NOT in one of the testing markets. Problem is I just ordered my son a hd receiver non dvr and havent activated it yet, so im thinking about returning it to upgrade to a THR22


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## picardone

Hi 
If I have 2 direct tv tivo units would I be able to watch something off of the play list on the other tivo unit. I also have a series 2 tivo will that share the playlist to the direct tv tivos and visa versa.
Thanks
Mike


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## litzdog911

picardone said:


> Hi
> If I have 2 direct tv tivo units would I be able to watch something off of the play list on the other tivo unit. I also have a series 2 tivo will that share the playlist to the direct tv tivos and visa versa.
> Thanks
> Mike


No. DirecTV/Tivo DVRs do not have the "Whole Home DVR" feature.


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## sjberra

Angeloalbertini said:


> give me a link please


http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=194

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=199680

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=199334

Like those that show it does not work with the Directv feature?


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## higcom

Can anyone provide the code to remove the parental password on the Philips Direct Tv with Tivo DSR 708? Thanks, Frank


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## stevel

My understanding is that there is no code. Instead, you call DirecTV, verify that you are the subscriber and they can cause a signal to be sent to remove the password. You may have to push this through various CSRs until you find one that understands the issue (and that it is a TiVo.)


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## litzdog911

higcom said:


> Can anyone provide the code to remove the parental password on the Philips Direct Tv with Tivo DSR 708? Thanks, Frank


Steve's correct. There's no "code". You must call DirecTV and request that they reset the password. And you'll need to prove that you're the account holder.


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## fa_gsg

I am having Pixelation on Channel 14 (Sommet) and no programme info this has been reported to Tivo support initially a replacement box was supplied but still having the same issue. this pixelation also occurs sometimes with Ch 3 (TVNZ3) but the programme guide IS available 
I also have a TV with a built in "freeview" tuner which is both very clear and also has the programme guide for Ch 14 without using the tivo box.
I have:
Reset 
Scanned for channels 
and added CH 14 as the initial scans do not pick up Ch 14.
I am still awaiting a call back from Support (10 days now) 
Any suggestions


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## litzdog911

fa_gsg said:


> I am having Pixelation on Channel 14 (Sommet) and no programme info this has been reported to Tivo support initially a replacement box was supplied but still having the same issue. this pixelation also occurs sometimes with Ch 3 (TVNZ3) but the programme guide IS available
> I also have a TV with a built in "freeview" tuner which is both very clear and also has the programme guide for Ch 14 without using the tivo box.
> I have:
> Reset
> Scanned for channels
> and added CH 14 as the initial scans do not pick up Ch 14.
> I am still awaiting a call back from Support (10 days now)
> Any suggestions


You probably wanted to post this in the NZ/Australia Tivo Forum ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=66


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## stevel

I am 99% sure that dantruong is a spammer, trying to get his post count up. Look at his other posts.


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## litzdog911

stevel said:


> I am 99% sure that dantruong is a spammer, trying to get his post count up. Look at his other posts.


I suspect you're correct.


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