# DirecTV and Tivo extend relationship 3 years



## OneEyedWonder (Sep 7, 2004)

ALVISO, Calif., April 12 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO),
the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders
(DVR), and DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSE: DTV), the nation's leading digital television
service provider, today announced a three-year extension to the TiVo-DIRECTV
commercial agreement.

Existing DIRECTV TiVo subscribers will be able to continue to receive the
award-winning TiVo(R) service, with TiVo providing ongoing maintenance and
support. In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights
against the other. The agreement also extends the advertising relationship
between the two companies. DIRECTV will continue to service existing DIRECTV
receivers with TiVo service. While specific financial terms of the agreement
were not disclosed, the recurring monthly economics of the agreement are
similar to the economics for DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service activated
since 2003.

"We are pleased to have reached an agreement with DIRECTV that will allow us
to continue to provide our service to the more than 2 million DIRECTV TiVo
households," said TiVo CEO Tom Rogers. "As the pioneer in the DVR market, we
have created a service that is highly valued by consumers because of our
technology, the wide range of our unique features and the unparalleled ease of
our user experience. This agreement reflects TiVo's popularity among DIRECTV
subscribers and importantly respects the value of our intellectual property as
well."

"By extending our agreement with TiVo, we are ensuring quality support for
DIRECTV customers who already own a DIRECTV TiVo unit," said Romulo Pontual,
DIRECTV's chief technology officer. "We are pleased to cooperate with TiVo in
a way that will best serve DIRECTV and our DIRECTV TiVo customers."


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

This is good news, I think. Perhaps NOW we'll get the 6.2 upgrade on the HD box!


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

I would love to hope this means anything other than status quo for anbother 3 years, but I will be very cautious.


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## malloryd (Jan 24, 2003)

I wonder if this has anything to do with how well received the R15's are with the customer base?


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

Gawd I hope this means something tangible.
D*, if it does means something tangible TELL US, cause once I leave for the S3, I'm not coming back.
-Shaown


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## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

I don't see much for us here. It sounds like A) TiVo continues to get DirecTiVo revenue for three more years, and B) DirecTV doesn't get sued for patenet infringement.

Nothing about marketing new TiVo sales, nothing about upgrading the service.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm actually a bit pessimistic on this report, and let me explain why. Every time someone asks about the future of their DTiVo, the standard answer is "it will work until the box breaks, and then you just have to fix it", and people point to normal receivers circa 1996 or UltimateTV boxes that all still work. However, reading this press release, I now believe it was a necessary step to keep the DTiVos working. These things run software licensed from TiVo (not owned by DirecTV), and as long as DirecTV pays the bill, everything is OK. But as soon as the agreement runs out (which will now happen later than it was set to), TiVo could very well make the boxes go dark. I don't know if they would (might be bad PR, but on the other hand, they're not in the business of giving their software away for free), but they certainly could.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ping said:


> I'm actually a bit pessimistic on this report, and let me explain why. Every time someone asks about the future of their DTiVo, the standard answer is "it will work until the box breaks, and then you just have to fix it", and people point to normal receivers circa 1996 or UltimateTV boxes that all still work. However, reading this press release, I now believe it was a necessary step to keep the DTiVos working. These things run software licensed from TiVo (not owned by DirecTV), and as long as DirecTV pays the bill, everything is OK. But as soon as the agreement runs out (which will now happen later than it was set to), TiVo could very well make the boxes go dark. I don't know if they would (might be bad PR, but on the other hand, they're not in the business of giving their software away for free), but they certainly could.


If they had not renewed the agreement, TiVo would not receive ANY further income from existing subscriptions and DirecTV could not activate any new TiVo receivers. The patent agreement is why DirecTV renewed; the income stream is why TiVo renewed.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

wonder if it's any coincidence the agreement ends in 2009  nahhh

hey at least when my new hdtivo arrives today I can now tell my wife it's guaranteed to work 3 more years... in writing!

why would they need to agree not to sue over patents? I didn't think the directv dvr had skip or other 'infringable' stuff.


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## Blurayfan (Oct 6, 2003)

I would like to see a software release for all Series2 based units including the HR10-250 that includes the enhanced feature set of 7.2.x. Even without TiVoToGo it would be a nice feature upgrade.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ping said:


> But as soon as the agreement runs out (which will now happen later than it was set to), TiVo could very well make the boxes go dark. I don't know if they would (might be bad PR, but on the other hand, they're not in the business of giving their software away for free), but they certainly could.


True, but I would think that with TiVo giving up their right to sue for patent infringment that means that it's TiVo that stands to lose if the deal isn't renewed. Most likely this is to stave off any possibility of a "Trade in Your TiVo because it stops working next year" program from DTV.

But you're right, it doesn't seem like good news for any customer who's not happy just to keep the lights on for the next four years. The last hope of any future for TiVo with DTV was the leverage a patent win against Dish would give them. This surrenders that leverage with very little to show for it.

It may be that this is a move from TiVo to avoid the appearance of an immediate crisis if their Dish suit should fail.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

I was going to search the other threads since i have no clue what other updates are out there but then figured why bother since none of it is certain yet. I hate getting my hopes up. ignorace is bliss and all that good stuff


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Fat chance this means anything for us. I am willing to bet though that it means that DirecTVs own HD DVR will be even later now. Stall...Stall...Stall...


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

As I read it, TiVo will handle the maintinence on the the DirecTiVo boxes. In the past, TiVo has always said that they had feature upgrades for DirecTiVo's, just that DirecTV didn't choose to pass them on.

I'll bet you see them now.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

danieljanderson said:


> As I read it, TiVo will handle the maintinence on the the DirecTiVo boxes. In the past, TiVo has always said that they had feature upgrades for DirecTiVo's, just that DirecTV didn't choose to pass them on.
> 
> I'll bet you see them now.


I'll bet you won't. They need more, not less, incentive to move to the R15.

The agreement calls for "mutually agreed development" or something to that effect. DirecTV is still in the driver's seat here.


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## lutton (Mar 10, 2004)

Personally, I'm optimistic about this announcement. Look at TiVo and Dish, at trial. At least TiVo and DirecTV have a plan to carry forward together.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

Could be the beginning of something.... Remember, when the TIVO D* split was announced TIVO was on the ropes with no other major cable/sat deal in place. The Comcast deal surely changed the status quo. When it was announced, TIVO said they intended to go back and forge deals with D* and others. Now with the DISH lawsuit, grumbling from some of Direct TV's best customers, and a more willing to agree to terms TIVO it could happen.

Still waiting... but seeing a glimmer of hope!


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

The key to us receiving software upgrades is probably the advertising platform... I would think that TiVo would want all of the potential revenue stream from ads turned on as part of the agreement. And, AFAIK, that would require running newer software. 

Now, whether or not we'd see additional functionality remains to be seen. I'd like to get the performance improvement on my HD box, and hopefully some amount of broadband support. I think TiVo ToGo may be too much to hope for... 

Jeff


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## AaRdVarK3 (Aug 12, 2003)

I think the key quote here is "In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights
against the other."

In my opinion, everything else in the release is just spin. D* paid TiVo for indemnity. If TiVo's case against E* stands, then D* is in a very, very bad position, becuase due to their past relationship with TiVo, a pretty devestating patent case could be made since D* had intimate knowledge of how TiVo's patents are implemented.

So in my opinion, nothing changes. My HR10 will get the job done until Adelphia gets HD and the Series3 comes out.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

jautor said:


> The key to us receiving software upgrades is probably the advertising platform... I would think that TiVo would want all of the potential revenue stream from ads turned on as part of the agreement. And, AFAIK, that would require running newer software.


Granted I haven't kept up with the standalone releases, but what, exactly, are we "missing" with regards to advertising features. I get yellow stars and TiVomatics just fine, and have since version 4ish, maybe earlier.

In any case, 6.x already has features in the code that are disabled by the very fact it's running on a DirecTV box. So even if we did get a software update, it wouldn't autmatically mean anything at all for HMO/HME/TiVo-2-Go/etc.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Lee L said:


> I would love to hope this means anything other than status quo for anbother 3 years, but I will be very cautious.


Given the way TiVo has been treated in the last several years, I can't imagine this will be much more than "Your TiVo will not stop working when the existing contract runs out".


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

So DAN COLLINS was right and some people gave him a hard time.

No matter how this is spun, it's good news for DirecTV and TiVo, and all of the DirecTiVo owners and who knows, it could mean something bigger is coming. Only time will tell.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

DVDKingdom said:


> I would like to see a software release for all Series2 based units including the HR10-250 that includes the enhanced feature set of 7.2.x. Even without TiVoToGo it would be a nice feature upgrade.


I would like to see the TiVo guy jump out of the TV and whistle dixie, but I don't think either are going to happen...


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Joe Siegler said:


> Given the way TiVo has been treated in the last several years, I can't imagine this will be much more than "Your TiVo will not stop working when the existing contract runs out".


Actually DirecTV couldn't afford to lose 2 to 2.5 million paying customers if they had done that. We all knew that was going to happen.


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## bsnelson (Oct 30, 1999)

Joe Siegler said:


> Given the way TiVo has been treated in the last several years, I can't imagine this will be much more than "Your TiVo will not stop working when the existing contract runs out".


Holy Crap! Joe Siegler lives! We thought you got lost leaving Dave & Busters way back when 

Brad


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

> Actually DirecTV couldn't afford to lose 2 to 2.5 million paying customers if they had done that. We all knew that was going to happen.


Don't undersell the draw of NFL Sunday Ticket. Or general laziness. I'm sure a big percentage of that 2.5 Million won't want the hassle of going back to cable or something like that, and will just let D* put in their DVR.

However for me personally, if they took away my TiVo, I'd stay, because of NFL Sunday Ticket. Actually NFL Sunday Ticket is the only thing keeping me at DirecTV. If that was non exclusive, I might be somewhere else.

I've had a TiVo for a really long time, and love them, but since D* took over my unit, I haven't much cared. It's been feature flat for a few years now, and I'd love to have TiVo themselves be in control of my feature set again. BUT.. with the wife and I from Pittsburgh & Philly respectively living in Dallas, we have to have the Ticket. No way could I follow the Cowboys.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

bsnelson said:


> Holy Crap! Joe Siegler lives! We thought you got lost leaving Dave & Busters way back when
> 
> Brad


Funny you should mention that, as I drove by the mall the other day (boy how that area has grown) and thought about that meeting we had way back when. Before everyone and their mother had TiVo meetings. 

The way my life has gone the last couple of years, I have had less time for recreational forum reading then I used to. And now that I have a 1 year old, there's just about zero time.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> I would like to see the TiVo guy jump out of the TV and whistle dixie, but I don't think either are going to happen...


thanks for reminding me when i turn off the T60 and get my 2nd hd tivo, i no longer will have the tivo-0 buddy


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> thanks for reminding me when i turn off the T60 and get my 2nd hd tivo, i no longer will have the tivo-0 buddy


I agree, in the early days almost six years ago, the TiVo guy was sometimes fun to watch.


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## shadoh (Jul 29, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> Actually DirecTV couldn't afford to lose 2 to 2.5 million paying customers if they had done that. We all knew that was going to happen.


Exactly! My commitment contract expired a while back. If DirecTV quit offering TiVo service, I'd leave them in a heartbeat. Sure, DirecTV is a decent cable provider, but there are half a dozen "decent" cable providers in my area. I'm committed to my TiVo, not my DirecTV (although, dual tuners... LOVE dual tuners). But I am curious about giving Verizon FiOS a try. Don't give me an excuse, DirecTV!


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

PRNewswire-FirstCall said:


> Existing DIRECTV TiVo subscribers will be able to continue to receive the award-winning TiVo(R) service, with TiVo providing ongoing maintenance and support.


This is the quote from the press release that has some of us cautiously optimistic.

Remember back in the day when TiVo supported the DirecTiVos? And then when DirecTV took over "support" of the DirecTV DVRs Powered By TiVo?

Does this quote mean that TiVo is taking support back from DirecTV for DirecTiVos? Or does it just mean that TiVo will be available should DirecTV request any feature "enhancements" (like turning off the true resolution information, for example)


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

I hope this is goods news, I hope this is good news, I hope this is good news...

tk


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Hey D* took a shot in the dark with their own dvr. Fortunately for us tivo owners they didn't hit anything. And time as always will prove out THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN COMPARE WITH A TIVO!!!!!!!! It was the best before and always will be the best. They all tried to do it. Cable, Dishnetwork, and D*(with their own dvr's). And now that tivo is going to other providers IE Comcast it will put the screws to D* to keep the Directivo up to date with the S/A tivo. If they don't we tivo lovers will have a choice(not like before where if you wanted the features of the S/A you had to sacrifice PQ or dual tuners.) IMHO this is why D* has resigned with tivo. And this time they better get off their collective rearends and upgrade us or They know with a choice THIS TIME we will leave. Series 3 looks mighty tasty but i will stick with my S2 if they are upgraded to what they should be!!


I think the failure of the r15 to take off. More than likely the amount of service calls tripled since it was introduced, compared to with tivo. And comcast introducing tivo scared the living crud out of D* 2.5 million subs leaving for cable opened their eyes. Mabye and this is a major mabye we will see the development of a directivo s3. Once all of cable is digital and they have tivo D* cant be that stupid that they cant see how easy it is for us to switch.

Years ago they had the upper hand when seriously there were no choices. But soon there will be choices and D* knows it. but they are taking it slow! 3 years at a time. Just like when the r15 came out we were hoping it would fail. Now At least I am hoping the S/3 takes off like a rocket. This will force D* to keep up or get left behind with the few thousand new subs that don't know there is something better out there. But word of mouth also helps. Uncle joe has the r15 and is happy until he goes to nephew jims house and gets to use his tivo. 


The future is looking a bit better for us tivo lovers!!!!!


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Hmmm....since TiVo did not handle "maintenance and support" under the previous agreement it could be a good development.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Hey D* took a shot in the dark with their own dvr. Fortunately for us tivo owners they didn't hit anything. And time as always will prove out THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN COMPARE WITH A TIVO!!!!!!!! It was the best before and always will be the best. They all tried to do it. Cable, Dishnetwork, and D*(with their own dvr's). And now that tivo is going to other providers IE Comcast it will put the screws to D* to keep the Directivo up to date with the S/A tivo. If they don't we tivo lovers will have a choice(not like before where if you wanted the features of the S/A you had to sacrifice PQ or dual tuners.) IMHO this is why D* has resigned with tivo. And this time they better get off their collective rearends and upgrade us or They know with a choice THIS TIME we will leave. Series 3 looks mighty tasty but i will stick with my S2 if they are upgraded to what they should be!!
> 
> I think the failure of the r15 to take off. More than likely the amount of service calls tripled since it was introduced, compared to with tivo. And comcast introducing tivo scared the living crud out of D* 2.5 million subs leaving for cable opened their eyes. Mabye and this is a major mabye we will see the development of a directivo s3. Once all of cable is digital and they have tivo D* cant be that stupid that they cant see how easy it is for us to switch.
> 
> ...


I not trying to rain on your parade, but none of us actually know the details of this agreement and I really don't believe that this means that the R15 or HR20 is dead. And even as big a fan as I am about TiVo (six years and six units, all hacked) I doubt that anyone knows for sure what this actually means to DirecTV, TiVo, DirecTiVo owners, or to DirecTV DVRs. Only time will tell.

But I do have to say, I do believe we can rejoice in the fact that this is GOOD news for DirecTV, TiVo, and DirecTiVo owners. Just that maybe we shouldnt go wild and crazy yet. Lets just enjoy the moment for what it is. GOOD NEWS.

Additional Thought:

I for one did NOT hope that the R15 would fail, in fact I originally hoped that it would be a better DVR, but based upon feedback on the other forum from most but not all users, but especially from longterm TiVo users, it appears to have a boat load of problems and some real design flaws.


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## jautor (Jul 1, 2001)

dr_mal said:


> Remember back in the day when TiVo supported the DirecTiVos? And then when DirecTV took over "support" of the DirecTV DVRs Powered By TiVo?
> 
> Does this quote mean that TiVo is taking support back from DirecTV for DirecTiVos? Or does it just mean that TiVo will be available should DirecTV request any feature "enhancements" (like turning off the true resolution information, for example)


That is what I thought, too, but reading the SEC filing, the wording says "continue to maintain and support". Which sounds like they changed the expiration date, but that the jist of the support agreement is the same as it was... And that would mean we're in the same basic boat we were yesterday.

Now, they do talk about the advertising stuff, which I think is our glimmer of hope, since the "best" support in that area would likely require some software upgrades.

Jeff


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> I not trying to rain on your parade, but none of us actually know the details of this agreement and I really don't believe that this means that the R15 or HR20 is dead. And even as big a fan as I am about TiVo (six years and six units, all hacked) I doubt that anyone knows for sure what this actually means to DirecTV, TiVo, DirecTiVo owners, or to DirecTV DVRs. Only time will tell.
> 
> But I do have to say, I do believe we can rejoice in the fact that this is GOOD news for DirecTV, TiVo, and DirecTiVo owners. Just that maybe we shouldnt go wild and crazy yet. Lets just enjoy the moment for what it is. GOOD NEWS.
> 
> ...


 Iwas speculating and hoping. Again IMHO D* is waiting to see what happens with the cable co tivo before they decide to keep us or drop us. By extending the contract they leave their options open. Speculation again. Time will tell. At least the question of reactivating my tivos after feb 2007 has been answered.   Horrayy!! they will reactivate them!! :up:


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

What's the word...meh?

Unless this means the Series 3 will come out for DTV, this doesn't matter to me.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> Iwas speculating and hoping. Again IMHO D* is waiting to see what happens with the cable co tivo before they decide to keep us or drop us. By extending the contract they leave their options open. Speculation again. Time will tell. At least the question of reactivating my tivos after feb 2007 has been answered.   Horrayy!! they will reactivate them!! :up:


I agree, the reactivation situation has now been extended until February 2010, which is past the time when I plan on going to HD, so my five SD DirecTiVos where a great investment.

Like I said, it is GOOD NEWS, but how good of news is it?

Since Dan Collins broke this story about two weeks ago and got flak about it, does Dan have anymore insider news on what this agreement means?

Dan are you there?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

has pony spoken about this yet? he would know


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## Duffinator (Feb 14, 2005)

shadoh said:


> Exactly! My commitment contract expired a while back. If DirecTV quit offering TiVo service, I'd leave them in a heartbeat. Sure, DirecTV is a decent cable provider, but there are half a dozen "decent" cable providers in my area. I'm committed to my TiVo, not my DirecTV (although, dual tuners... LOVE dual tuners). But I am curious about giving Verizon FiOS a try. Don't give me an excuse, DirecTV!


I hear you here. While I'm a big D* fan I'm watching Comcast closely and next year when their HD TiVo DVR's come out and nothing is moving forward with the current relationship I'll most likely be leaving for Comcast.

While this is good news and keeps the door open I really hope D* comes to their senses and moves forward with the TiVo relationship. IMO the combo of D* and TiVo is the best home entertainment option and I'd like to see that continue indefinitely.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

newsposter said:


> has pony spoken about this yet? he would know


Which is probably why he can't speak about it.


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## PRMan (Jul 26, 2000)

Didn't see that coming... Hopefully it results in some upgrades (more memory and a faster CPU in the HD TiVo would be nice).


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

I'm not sure what to make of this. Frankly, my initial take is that it's not good. I was hoping that DirecTV's full departure from TiVo would either wake them up to the fact that their DVR's lack some VERY desired TiVo features and that perhaps TiVo would wither and nearly die as a result of the separation allowing DirecTV to buy them for pennies on the dollar.

The bottom line is that I want the TiVo features that they own patents on but without the negative of having TiVo at the helm as they've clearly lost their way and I don't see them getting back on the path that got them their initial solid reputation.

No one but TiVo has been able to produce a DVR that can record a show regardless of its running time and night. As I understand it, that's one of the patents. To me, a DVR that cannot handle different show lengths and nights is just not good enough. Missing an episode of "Lost" or missing half the show, sets you back immeasurably.


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## GimmeMP3 (Nov 9, 2002)

The agreement is public. There is no reason for Pony or anyone at TiVo to withold comment about what this means in terms of long missing features on DTiVos. 

TiVo people: Are we getting TiVo2Go, HMO, HME, etc. on DTiVos or not?


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The agreement is public.


If that were true, there would be no need for Pony to say anything we didn't already know. No, the only thing public about the agreement is the press release and the 8-K filed with the SEC. Both leave a lot out. And some things probably haven't even been decided yet.


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## dr_mal (Mar 21, 2001)

Agrajag said:


> The bottom line is that I want the TiVo features that they own patents on but without the negative of having TiVo at the helm as they've clearly lost their way and I don't see them getting back on the path that got them their initial solid reputation.


As opposed to DirecTV who has done absolutely nothing with the TiVo platform in the last 3 years? At least TiVo has brought MRV, remote scheduling, TTG, *folders for crying out loud* to their recorders. I'm infinitely more comfortable with TiVo at the helm compared to DirecTV thankyouverymuch.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ping said:


> If that were true, there would be no need for Pony to say anything we didn't already know. No, the only thing public about the agreement is the press release and the 8-K filed with the SEC. Both leave a lot out. And some things probably haven't even been decided yet.


I agree, what information that has been released in the news releases is somewhat vague, but what I believe we can all gleem from this is that our DirecTiVos will continue to function maybe just as they are and be deactivated and reactivated through February 2010, which is almost 4 years away and in my case a year pass my deadline to switch to HDTV at least in the TV viewing room/familyroom/livingroom. The bedrooms and work areas would continue using SD even then.

So all in all this is VERY GOOD NEWS and if more comes from this agreement then that is even BETTER NEWS. So, at least for all of us DirecTiVos users, we are good to go until at least February 2010.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> Actually DirecTV couldn't afford to lose 2 to 2.5 million paying customers if they had done that. We all knew that was going to happen.


No.

From the TiVo annual report:

"Our current development agreement with DIRECTV expires in February 2007. Afterwards, while DIRECTV will have the option to
continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us, it will not be able to add new DIRECTV
receivers with TiVo service unless DIRECTV elects either to purchase a royalty-bearing technology license from us or to renew or replace our
current agreement."


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## durvivor (May 27, 2003)

Wait, so had I activated a HR10-250 yesterday... I was obligated to DirecTV for 2 full years... Yet, with this press release I know now that yesterday, DirecTV only had agreements to keep my HR10-250 running for 1 of those years...

BOCTAOE (But Of Course There Are Obvious Exceptions)

I think DirecTV has gotten too caught up in maximizing revenue per customer and is starting to forget that we have needs too. Sadly, Comcast (or any other cable company) is not an option in my complex (thanks a lot Qwest) but, if it were I'd be gone from DirecTV the minute the S3 comes out.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The agreement is public. There is no reason for Pony or anyone at TiVo to withold comment about what this means in terms of long missing features on DTiVos.
> 
> TiVo people: Are we getting TiVo2Go, HMO, HME, etc. on DTiVos or not?


TiVo can't coment on what features that will be coming (or not coming, which is more realistic) to the DirecTiVos because DirecTV controls that, just as they have the last few years. If D* wanted us to have 6.2 on the HR10-250, we could have had it some time ago (after all, they demoed it at CES 2005). They could choose to let it out next month, but what has changed on their end that was keeping them from doing it these past 14 months?


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Joe Siegler said:


> However for me personally, if they took away my TiVo, I'd stay, because of NFL Sunday Ticket. Actually NFL Sunday Ticket is the only thing keeping me at DirecTV. If that was non exclusive, I might be somewhere else.


I'm with you on that one. That's why i signed up 10 years ago.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> I agree, the reactivation situation has now been extended until February 2010, which is past the time when I plan on going to HD, so my five SD DirecTiVos where a great investment.
> 
> Like I said, it is GOOD NEWS, but how good of news is it?
> 
> ...


Its great news!! 3 more years is 3 more years. It also means 3 more years for tivo to permanantly cement its relations with D* And 3 more years of possibilities(Upgrades perhaps) Its great news compared with last week when I saw no hope for my directivo at all. It all seemed like it was over in a year but now it is alive again. Lets see how D* deals with this new life(nurture it or ignore it like before and watch it die forever) If D* is that insistent on self destruction they will ignore tivo, if they want to grow as a company and kick the butt out of cable they will invest in tivo and nurture it to its full potential. Lets see what they do. They have 3 more years. Cmon Directv be smart! Dont let tivo die!


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## GimmeMP3 (Nov 9, 2002)

Lee L said:


> TiVo can't coment on what features that will be coming (or not coming, which is more realistic) to the DirecTiVos because DirecTV controls that...


The question is whether the "maintenance and support" language in the press release changes the agreement so that TiVo is now responsible for new features.


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## GimmeMP3 (Nov 9, 2002)

ping said:


> If that were true, there would be no need for Pony to say anything we didn't already know. No, the only thing public about the agreement is the press release and the 8-K filed with the SEC. Both leave a lot out. And some things probably haven't even been decided yet.


Fair enough. I'm just looking for TiVo to confirm that this extends the existing agreement, and the "maintenance and support" language in the press release doesn't mean TiVo gets to decide on whether to add new features to DTiVo boxes.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TiVo has always provided maintenance and support to DirecTV for their product; this agreement isn't changing that.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

So there's nothing concrete here, really, and I tend to side with those who have opined that this is an indemnity agreement -- in other words, avoiding lawsuits.

Having said that...it leaves the door open for possible future upgrades. Do I think we will get them? Not really...but before this agreement was signed, the drop-dead date was next year. Now it's a few years into the future, and a lot can happen in a few years.

--chris


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> It also means 3 more years for tivo to permanantly cement its relations with D*


The dog may talk.


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## swizzlest (Sep 13, 2003)

bsnelson said:


> Holy Crap! Joe Siegler lives! We thought you got lost leaving Dave & Busters way back when
> 
> Brad


Holy Crap! Joe Siegler lives! I thought he got lost leaving that BBS in Massachusetts we used to do all our beta work off of

(Hey, I'm in the credits for Duke Nukem 3D!)

Hi, Joe! Kick George in the nards for me!


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

Joe Siegler said:


> Don't undersell the draw of NFL Sunday Ticket..... However for me personally, if they took away my TiVo, I'd stay, because of NFL Sunday Ticket.


I would stay as well. But I would be a lower end sub with 1 HD receiver and not a $150+/month sub with 6 DVR's.

Once the Series 3 is available and Comcast (who is taking over from Adelphia) gets me the same HD package they have in Huntington, I would be gone in a heartbeat.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Curtis said:


> No.
> 
> From the TiVo annual report:
> 
> ...


I am not sure what you are saying NO to? It's not clear by your post.

Someone thought that all DirecTiVos would quit working on February 2007 whne the contract was up, and my comment was there is no way that DirecTV would let 2 to 2.5 million of their customers leave.

All of the previous agreements/contracts do not say that all existing DirecTiVos die in February 2007. The existing 2 to 2.5 million DirecTiVos would continue to run after the contract ended in Februray 2007. It is just that DirecTV would have to provide all of the support including any part of the guide data that TiVo has a hand in providing.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

Curtis said:


> while DIRECTV will have the option to
> continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us,


Sounds like D* is paying Tivo a royalty to the tune of close to $75M and in exchange getting patent protection.

Could be bad news for TiVo owners now that D* can develop its own DVR with near immunity from a patent suit from TiVo.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

newsposter said:


> why would they need to agree not to sue over patents? I didn't think the directv dvr had skip or other 'infringable' stuff.


Protection. In civil court, anyone can sue you over anything. That doesn't mean they prevail, but it's still a pain in the rear that you have to deal with.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> I would like to see the TiVo guy jump out of the TV and whistle dixie, but I don't think either are going to happen...


Not me. I'd run right out of the room.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

It's one of the biggest reasons why I have left one of my hacked DTivo's running 4.0.1, rather than upgrading to 6.2 like the rest! 



tbeckner said:


> I agree, in the early days almost six years ago, the TiVo guy was sometimes fun to watch.


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## tbh999 (Aug 29, 2001)

This is great news. I have no great hopes for HMO or TTG or any of the other alphabets. But *I want folders* on my HDirecTivo!!!

PS: Of course when the cc S3 comes to HD, I'll have to consider ending my 9 year run with DirecTV. It would be nice to get the software upgrades earlier instead of _never_!​


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## vigfoot (Dec 1, 2003)

i stumbled upon the agreement 5 mins. ago while googling tivo/cablevision, saw the dateline, and was ready to paste the story here- would've been my first real contribution!

anyway, i was glad to read of the agreement. maybe we will get some improvements.


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## djdanska (Sep 30, 2004)

ping said:


> In any case, 6.x already has features in the code that are disabled by the very fact it's running on a DirecTV box. So even if we did get a software update, it wouldn't autmatically mean anything at all for HMO/HME/TiVo-2-Go/etc.


If they where to push a 7.x based software, it would still open up a lot of doors in regards to networking and other stuff. It would still require hacking, but the opportunities could be nice.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

herdfan said:


> Sounds like D* is paying Tivo a royalty to the tune of close to $75M and in exchange getting patent protection.
> 
> Could be bad news for TiVo owners now that D* can develop its own DVR with near immunity from a patent suit from TiVo.


This is what I think is now happening:

1) D* won't force DTivo users to switch to R15 after Feb 2007.

2) DTivo users still have the options to go to a) S3 b) Comcast with Tivo for HD, and c) dual Tuner SD Tivo

Yes D* can still develop their own DVR, but since they can't swicth DTivo users easily to R15, they have to compete with Tivo+Cable competition, which won't be easy given their R15 development track record. More competition is always a good thing for customers. As long as DTivo owners (us) are not forced to use R15, we are in a win-win situation.


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## ScubaCat3 (May 19, 2005)

yunlin12 said:


> This is what I think is now happening:
> 
> 1) D* won't force DTivo users to switch to R15 after Feb 2007.


When was that ever going to happen??


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

I just don't see where this annoucement means anything has changed. DirecTV is still going to phase out DirecTivo's. If you don't have one already, you won't be getting one.

Nor will DirecTv be doing any extra upgrades for the existing DirecTivos. They are still switching to an in house DVR model. All they have done is agree with Tivo not to sue each other over patents.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I just don't see where this annoucement means anything has changed. DirecTV is still going to phase out DirecTivo's. If you don't have one already, you won't be getting one.
> 
> Nor will DirecTv be doing any extra upgrades for the existing DirecTivos. They are still switching to an in house DVR model. All they have done is agree with Tivo not to sue each other over patents.


 

I going to assume that what you mean by "DirecTV is still going to phase out DirecTivo's.", is that DirecTV is not going to offer DirecTiVo's for sale, which of course is what everyone already knew and has already happened.

But if you mean to say that DirecTV would have either forced us to buy or use the OTHER DVR to receive their programming well that was NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

I believe that since Dan Collins broke this story almost two weeks ago and brought up the DirecTiVo activation problem after the contract was up in February 2007 a week ago, DirecTV's biggest problem would have been making a lot of DirecTiVo owners unhappy enough next year so that they would have jumped ship to cable or God forbid the Dish Network, because DirecTV would not have been able to activate old DirecTiVos. So, wisely DirecTV sat down at the table with TiVo and came up with a contract that allows all DirecTiVo owners to be fully supported DirecTV customers until after February 2010.

DirecTV could not without a huge penalty in bad feelings, lost customers, or a hit to their revenue eliminate the DirecTiVos customers in any form. When 15-20% of your customers use DirecTiVos, you just couldnt shut them down, even if you offered a free replacement, unless of course the replacement offered the same capability, interface, and level of reliability, which of course the current OTHER DVR does not and possibly never will.

No this is good news for DirecTV, TiVo, and the DirecTiVo customers, because we are good to go until after February 2010. And in my case, I had already planned on going to HD sometime in 2009, so this is perfect.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

crazywater said:


> Hmmm....since TiVo did not handle "maintenance and support" under the previous agreement it could be a good development.


Well, in the dark time when we got virtually no updates at all while the SA models got all kinds of styuff, TiVo technically did the work for the few updates we got. As I understood it, DirecTV contracted them out to do that work on a case by case basis.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Duffinator said:


> I hear you here. While I'm a big D* fan I'm watching Comcast closely and next year when their HD TiVo DVR's come out and nothing is moving forward with the current relationship I'll most likely be leaving for Comcast.
> 
> While this is good news and keeps the door open I really hope D* comes to their senses and moves forward with the TiVo relationship. IMO the combo of D* and TiVo is the best home entertainment option and I'd like to see that continue indefinitely.


Your venture to CC looks like a ship I will be boarding soon. This announcement gave me a tingle, but then Murdoch is still in control and it can't be a coincidence, his arrival and the dumbing down of DTV.


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## heronbay1 (Sep 26, 2002)

I have lifetime DVR with DTV. Love seeing $0.00 on my bill each month for DVR service. 
I'm not going anywhere.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

NFLST 'nuff said.

OBTW, the "R15" _does_ have a long way to go. Who knows what will be the status of that other DVR three+ years from now.

For my dollar, I hope TiVo pulls it off and the existing NDS technology (which goes beyond DTV) continues to do what it has thus far -- not much. TiVo could still sue NDS if it wants -- DTV is just a pass through vendor for that other DVR. They don't have to sue DTV to get to the same end.

Any international patent experts here?


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## DannyS (Dec 24, 2002)

http://today.reuters.com/investing/...1_WEN4454_RTRUKOC_0_US-MEDIA-TIVO-DIRECTV.xml



> DirecTV said it will sell new TiVos that can record high-definition video if a customer requests it, but it has no plans to promote it. It will no longer sell boxes that record standard definition video.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

herdfan said:


> Sounds like D* is paying Tivo a royalty to the tune of close to $75M and in exchange getting patent protection.
> 
> Could be bad news for TiVo owners now that D* can develop its own DVR with near immunity from a patent suit from TiVo.


Exactly. I think you are the only one in this thread who gets it. This agreement allows D* to develop their own DVR without worrying about a patent suit from Tivo. Anyone who sees this as "good news" for their DTivo in the long term is missing the big picture.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

morgantown said:


> NFLST 'nuff said.
> 
> OBTW, the "R15" _does_ have a long way to go. Who knows what will be the status of that other DVR three+ years from now.
> 
> ...


Aren't NDS & D* now owned by the same parent corp? Hard to say how the patents and agreements would be handled in the post-acquisition environment. I think it's not uncommon for the acquisition contracts to include language that gives the parent corp the ability to use the intellectual property & agreements of the acquisition as they please. Of course, none of us has access to all the legalese, so who knows...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

From what I was told by my contact earlier today...

1) The agreement isn't changing their game plan with regards to their next generation equipment... Aka, don't expect a new TiVo Series Line

2) They are not gonig to "restock" the shelfs with DTiVo units... they are not producing any more

3) They will obviously continue to support and accept activations of the units

4) Don't expect any new functionality in the units, with the exception of the HR10-250. They have been working for a while with TiVo to get an updated version to us... To provide 6.x functionality to the HR10-250... and it is POSSIBLE that we may see it by the end of Q2-2006... Don't go holding your breath, but....... my contact was fairly optomistic about it


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> 4) Don't expect any new functionality in the units, with the exception of the HR10-250. They have been working for a while with TiVo to get an updated version to us... To provide 6.x functionality to the HR10-250... and it is POSSIBLE that we may see it by the end of Q2-2006... Don't go holding your breath, but....... my contact was fairly optomistic about it


I think your contact is blowing smoke on this one ... DTV has had the 6.2 software for the HR10-250 for quite some time, but has chosen not to release it. I don't know why (requires additional payment to Tivo), but I find it hard to believe DTV is working with Tivo to get something they already have ...


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

If an HR10-250 upgrade is happening, I suspect the work to be done is more around scheduling the downloads, training the support techs, working out details of the D*/Tivo support arrangement, etc. There's more to it than just compiling the new code.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

jfh3 said:


> I think your contact is blowing smoke on this one ... DTV has had the 6.2 software for the HR10-250 for quite some time, but has chosen not to release it. I don't know why (requires additional payment to Tivo), but I find it hard to believe DTV is working with Tivo to get something they already have ...


Well... could be... but I doubt it......

As far as I have been told, and others have mentioned over the "year" or so since we saw 6.2 on the Series 2s... they have not had a version for the HR10-250 that was stable enough for public release.

But hey... All I know is that they are going to get specifically "folders" into the HR10-250.... and "sooner" then "later"


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## Phod (Apr 28, 2004)

Backtracking a bit, why did DirecTV and Tivo sever their ties in the first place? It seemed like a win-win for both parties. Tivo gets its brand name out there in a big way and DirecTV has an easy way to deal with the growing DVR market by using Tivo software.

So who's to blame for screwing that relationship up?

DirecTV I would venture to guess.


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## JaserLet (Dec 13, 2005)

DirecTV dumped TiVo in order to save a few dollars.

DirecTV is owned by NewsCorp. The new non-TiVo DVRs are designed and made by NDS, which is also owned by NewsCorp.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

BillyBob_jcv said:


> Exactly. I think you are the only one in this thread who gets it. This agreement allows D* to develop their own DVR without worrying about a patent suit from Tivo. Anyone who sees this as "good news" for their DTivo in the long term is missing the big picture.


what's the statute of limitations? If i develop something in direct violation of tivos patent, why can't tivo sue me after 2010?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

#1: DirecTV didn't "dump" TiVo... They continued with the contract and still serviced, activated, and actually still sells DTiVo units (they are in low quanties though). Yes, they have decided to begin to sell their own particular DVR hardware/software solution.... but look at the industry... just about every other carrier out there follows that model... so why shouldn't DireTV?

#2: Since none of us are part of the board room discussions... none of know Exactly went on in there... but if it "blew-up"... then what made them make up?

#3: The R15 (which JaserLet is referring too), may have peices similar to the "NDS" sky+ unit, but it is is coded and worked on by the DirecTV division. For more information about the R15... see www.dbstalk.com


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

newsposter said:


> what's the statute of limitations? If i develop something in direct violation of tivos patent, why can't tivo sue me after 2010?


I thought the wording was something like anything that was developed during the contract period is exempt from litigation.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> From what I was told by my contact earlier today...
> 
> 4) Don't expect any new functionality in the units, with the exception of the HR10-250. They have been working for a while with TiVo to get an updated version to us... To provide 6.x functionality to the HR10-250... and it is POSSIBLE that we may see it by the end of Q2-2006... Don't go holding your breath, but....... my contact was fairly optomistic about it


I've never had folders so can only assume i'd like them...but dont honestly know as stupid as that sounds. (can you turn them off if you dont like em?) But what I dont understand is this. If they aren't making any new 'directivo' boxes, why in the world would you even spend a penny on an upgrade to a box for which no more would be made? I can't understand this from the business perspective.

As an aside...i just activated my 2nd box last night. If the F software was already on it, can i assume it is a pretty new box? Obviously i had to make a phone call to activate the unit, but the call was short and no way did a huge software download have time to be piped in.


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## herdfan (Feb 5, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> .... but look at the industry... just about every other carrier out there follows that model... so why shouldn't DireTV?


I can think of several reasons. Does any other carrier have the low churn that D* has with the DirecTiVo's - probably not.

Also, has anyone signed up for cable because they wanted the new Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300?

D* stepped out-side the box and tried something different. And you know what, it freaking worked. And worked well. But then they go back inside the box and it all goes to [email protected]#$.

Brilliant plan.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Yes, they have decided to begin to sell their own particular DVR hardware/software solution.... but look at the industry... just about every other carrier out there follows that model... so why shouldn't DireTV?


The answer to that is so obvious I'll do nothing more than quote the question.


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## tbh999 (Aug 29, 2001)

newsposter said:


> I've never had folders so can only assume i'd like them...but dont honestly know as stupid as that sounds. (can you turn them off if you dont like em?)


You will like them (but yes you can turn them off). I have three other DirecTiVo's (Two of which have folders) and I have honestly considered moving one of them over to replace my HDirecTivo because of: 

Folders (The folder issue is especially important with a 200+ hour DirecTivo.) 
Added menu speed gained by the software update (Note: The guide speed is still about the same)


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

tbh999 said:


> Added menu speed gained by the software update (Note: The guide speed is still about the same)
> [/list]


does menu speed mean the time it takes to record something from the guide while already recording 2 HD streams?  Or rearrange SP?


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## Wilhite (Oct 26, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Well... could be... but I doubt it......
> 
> As far as I have been told, and others have mentioned over the "year" or so since we saw 6.2 on the Series 2s... they have not had a version for the HR10-250 that was stable enough for public release.
> 
> But hey... All I know is that they are going to get specifically "folders" into the HR10-250.... and "sooner" then "later"


Earl,

You've been on track often enough around here that I'm pretty optimistic about what you're saying here. But, if it doesn't happen, I'm personally gonna hunt you down and pee in your morning Wheaties.   

Is the "sooner" referring to end of Q2 (as you said above) and does that only apply to folders or does your contact expect the full blown functionality (i.e. speed improvements) for the HD units?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

herdfan said:


> I can think of several reasons. Does any other carrier have the low churn that D* has with the DirecTiVo's - probably not.
> 
> Also, has anyone signed up for cable because they wanted the new Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300?
> 
> ...


As others have said in other threads, having a DVR reduces churn. Which DVR doesn't seem to matter. Any DVR in the customer's hands reduces churn. There is no evidence that a Tivo reduces churn more than any other DVR.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

newsposter said:


> does menu speed mean the time it takes to record something from the guide while already recording 2 HD streams?  Or rearrange SP?


Well, on the SD DirecTiVos, instead of waiting say 30 seconds to set up a season pass, it took 5 or less. Instead of seeing the grid guide paint line by line, it popped up in one instant.

And yes, you can turn off folders.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

egggsellent! Will be a nice June 30 surprise for my machines. (earl promised after all)


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Man all the presure I put on myself...


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

Joe Siegler said:


> ...with the wife and I from Pittsburgh & Philly respectively living in Dallas, we have to have the Ticket. No way could I follow the Cowboys.


Dude.. you are a DISGRACE to your roots!


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

dr_mal said:


> As opposed to DirecTV who has done absolutely nothing with the TiVo platform in the last 3 years? At least TiVo has brought MRV, remote scheduling, TTG, *folders for crying out loud* to their recorders. I'm infinitely more comfortable with TiVo at the helm compared to DirecTV thankyouverymuch.


I had a feeling that posting critcism of TiVo here would be asking for it.

The bottom line is that DirecTV has 15 million customers and is a huge success in the marketplace. TiVo is struggling to stay alive and has been up and down more times than a Bangkok hooker.

Instead of focusing on improving the recording experience, TiVo got lost sometime back and started going into areas that were a complete loss of focus and that allowed everyone else to open the door for their own products. Had TiVo just continued to improve the core experience, the marketplace would have demanded their products. Instead, what we have today are a bunch of consumers who feel that the DVR's they're getting from people like Comcast are good enough. WE may not think so, but there is not a huge outcry from the vast majority of customers to make huge improvements. If you think there is, I contend that you're simply too vested in your perspective on TiVo to see the market as it clearly is.


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## Stainless Steele (Feb 2, 2004)

So you guys think you will finally get HMO as a result?


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

HMO is exactly part of the reason it's clear TiVo lost its way. The only people who give a damn about HMO are techie types that are a blip on the customer map. No typical customer is sitting at home thinking they need this sort of functionality.

Let's see. I want to play a song. How do I do it? I get a TiVo with HMO. I hook it up. I need my stereo and TV hooked up. I then either run ethernet to my TiVo or learn how to set up a wireless network. That also means I have to get and understand a router and home networking. I then have to keep my PC turned on (remember, most people turn off their PC's unlike a lot of the rest of us).

In the end, if you do all of that right, you can play a song on your TiVo. Wooooohoooooooo! Most people would just rather pop in a CD or turn on the radio. Try explaining the HMO setup to 99% of DirecTV's customers. No way, and that's the reason DirecTV hasn't bothered with it. It would be a fiasco for their support people and just not worth it for them in the end. 

This is what happens when you pay too close attention to your own fans and not the market at large. DirecTV is successful because they pay attention to the market and their main customer base and not just the vocal minority. Unfortunately that's the reason we lost picture quality, etc. Most people aren't that discerning and they could make more money with lesser quality channels than they could with less channels and better quality. You and I may not be happy with that be you and I are in the minority and a smart company realizes that.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

In general I agree that there is a difference between the technical abilities and desires of the forumites and the general TV watching public. HOWEVER, I think DirecTV is also guilty of losing their way. What people want NOW is high quality HD content AND all the functionality of a 2-tuner HD DVR - all for as little money as possible. If DirecTV looks, acts and charges just like the CableCo, then IMHO they offer no advantage, and I will switch to the lowest cost provider of the highest quality content.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Agrajag said:


> HMO is exactly part of the reason it's clear TiVo lost its way. The only people who give a damn about HMO are techie types that are a blip on the customer map. No typical customer is sitting at home thinking they need this sort of functionality.
> 
> Let's see. I want to play a song. How do I do it? I get a TiVo with HMO. I hook it up. I need my stereo and TV hooked up. I then either run ethernet to my TiVo or learn how to set up a wireless network. That also means I have to get and understand a router and home networking. I then have to keep my PC turned on (remember, most people turn off their PC's unlike a lot of the rest of us).
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better myself. A complete lack of company direction on things that would have been marketable.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Agrajag said:


> In the end, if you do all of that right, you can play a song on your TiVo. .


you serious? You can play songs on tivo? why would anyone want that (i presume through your tv also)?

can you tell i'm still in the 20th century?


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

BillyBob_jcv said:


> HOWEVER, I think DirecTV is also guilty of losing their way. What people want NOW is high quality HD content AND all the functionality of a 2-tuner HD DVR - all for as little money as possible. If DirecTV looks, acts and charges just like the CableCo, then IMHO they offer no advantage, and I will switch to the lowest cost provider of the highest quality content.


Okay, let's look at that.

What people are you talking about that want "high quality" HD content now?

Sure, HD TV's are selling at a brisk pace but they still make up a tiny fraction of overall TV's in use. Second, most people have no idea what "high quality" means. If they tune to DiscoveryHD Theater and it looks better than CNN, they perceive HD. End of story.

Second, DirecTV WANTS to be viewed as being every bit a plug-in replacement for the cable company. THAT'S where the money is. It's not in selling the best quality product to a small niche of discriminating consumers. I've been with DirecTV now for 12 years and during all of that time, their product has been a clear advantage over Comcast in my area. Comcast charges more for every comparable package. Their box is a joke. Their picture quality still is not as good as DirecTV's severely diminished picture.

DirecTV is adding customers, not losing them. The more cable-like they've become, the more successful they've been. It's kind of hard to sell the theory that DirecTV lost their way while they continue to impress most people with their success.

Don't get me wrong. I DirecTV was as different from cable is they were in 1994 again, but that's just not realistic. I also wish that everyone would finally realize that TiVo exists because their early efforts resulted in some features that are absolutely essential to quality TV recording. However, as much as people here like to talk down things like the R15 receiver, the reality is that MOST people are totally fine with it and the crappy SA and Motorola PVR's that are sent their way. I know 6 other people who have R15's. 5 of them are totally satisfied with them (my son is one of them). The one person who isn't happy with it is as technically aware as most of us are. Big surprise there.


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

newsposter said:


> you serious? You can play songs on tivo? why would anyone want that (i presume through your tv also)?


Well you can play them VIA the TiVo with the Home Media Option.

And your question is completely realistic. Most people have no interest or knowledge of that as an option.

Let me remind people of something I've said many times before. TiVo did something that was unprecidented in the world of consumer electronics. For decades companies strove to create the ultimate "convergence" device for the living/family room. No one could do it. Then TiVo created a box that, by its very design, needed to be on 24/7 and sat right there in the living/family room, etc.

They had single-handedly created the first viable media center. Think about how it works. It takes in a TV signal and stores it on the unit itself and then serves it up to the viewer on demand. Fantastic!!! Then, when it came time to continue to evolve, what did TiVo do? They lost focus.

If I want to watch TV on a TiVo, I only need the TiVo and my TV. In what world does it make sense that if I want to listen to music on my TiVo that I'd also need my PC and a healthy understanding of home networking???? Why can't I just store my music on my TiVo like I store my TV shows????? I want my TiVo to be my media CENTER. It is for my TV so why should other media be different? It makes NO sense. I can store all of the songs I'm interested in, using lossless compression (about 1500 songs) on less than 30GB of space. That's nothing for today's PVR's. Why can't I store my photos on the TiVo? Why must they come from my PC??? Again, it makes no sense. In fact, I'd much rather that if they did anything, they worked the other way around. Let me store all my media on the TiVo and if I WANT to edit my photos or something like that, I can go upstairs, turn on my PC, connect to the TiVo and load the pictures that way. That's a more obvious use of the pipeline. I want to do something with the media that is beyond the TiVo's purpose. 99% of the time that you deal with media, it's to see, view or hear it. It's not to edit it.

Only PC-centric people would look at HMO and see it as a big deal. Most people are not PC-centric.


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## rook (Jun 16, 2003)

Okay - so what are my options for a HD Tivo that gets the Mpeg4 feeds? 

Are there any models out there yet?
Rook


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Agrajag said:


> The bottom line is that DirecTV has 15 million customers and is a huge success in the marketplace.


You should remember that the vast majority of those 15 million customers where not added since Murdoch took over the company and started making people UNHAPPY and the company quit getting the JD POWERS and Associates yearly award for customer service.

I have been with DirecTV since October 1994 and since Murdoch took it over the DirecTV, IMHO it has been quickly GOING DOWN THE DRAIN.

The TiVo decision is just one of many BAD DECISIONS the successful company that someone else built has made since Murdoch started screwing it up.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> you serious? You can play songs on tivo? why would anyone want that (i presume through your tv also)?
> 
> can you tell i'm still in the 20th century?


Actually, if the TiVo is connected directly to your Audio system like mine is in another room (Living Room), the music plays through my six speaker 5.1 surround sound system and bypasses the TV completely, other than using the TV and TiVo to make the selection. Which means all of the ripped and download music can be played on the audio system in another room and it works great. It saves me from finding and putting a CD in the player in the other room or any room for that matter that has a TiVo.

And in the case of downloaded music, it saves me from having to make a CD.

In other words, my PC through all of my DirecTiVos is a media server. I can also build large selections of continous long length enjoyable music (Windham Hill) to play on any stereo connected to any of my five DirecTiVos throughout the house. No, it's a joy and a time saver.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rook said:


> Okay - so what are my options for a HD Tivo that gets the Mpeg4 feeds?
> 
> Are there any models out there yet?
> Rook


No, and there probable never will be...

The HR20 and the HR20p are the only announced MPEG-4 DVRs for DirecTV

And they are not TiVo powered.


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## tall1 (Oct 12, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> 4) Don't expect any new functionality in the units, with the exception of the HR10-250. They have been working for a while with TiVo to get an updated version to us... To provide 6.x functionality to the HR10-250... and it is POSSIBLE that we may see it by the end of Q2-2006... Don't go holding your breath, but....... my contact was fairly optomistic about it


Earl, did your contact mention the 6.2 upgrade because the news release made this possible? Or was this something that D* had been working on all along and the news release had no effect on the rumored Q2-2006 release?


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

newsposter said:


> I've never had folders so can only assume i'd like them...but dont honestly know as stupid as that sounds. (can you turn them off if you dont like em?)


Yes. You can toggle between having them on and off with the touch of a button.

I can't imagine not wanting them. It makes it far easier to find what you want to see.



newsposter said:


> But what I dont understand is this. If they aren't making any new 'directivo' boxes, why in the world would you even spend a penny on an upgrade to a box for which no more would be made? I can't understand this from the business perspective.


I wouldn't want to be a customer of your business if you can't understand the need to keep the customer happy.


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## Boston Fan (Feb 8, 2006)

ping said:


> The answer to that is so obvious I'll do nothing more than quote the question.


umm...yeah, that's why they call it a rhetorical question.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> #1: DirecTV didn't "dump" TiVo... They continued with the contract and still serviced, activated, and actually still sells DTiVo units (they are in low quanties though). Yes, they have decided to begin to sell their own particular DVR hardware/software solution.... but look at the industry... just about every other carrier out there follows that model... so why shouldn't DireTV?


Huh?

Let's stick to the US for the "industry."

DiSH has their own hardware. Lovely model, that one.

Cable companies don't develop their own hardware. They use Scientific Atlanta or Motorola or Moxi. I have yet to see a Comcast or Cox or Adelphia piece of hardware (or soon, TiVo).

So, who is that "every other carrier?"


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> In other words, my PC through all of my DirecTiVos is a media server. I can also build large selections of continous long length enjoyable music (Windham Hill) to play on any stereo connected to any of my five DirecTiVos throughout the house. No, it's a joy and a time saver.


Spoken like the non-typical customer you are. Nothing wrong with that, but you're not exactly swimming in the same pool as the average DirecTV customer.

All I'm talking about is not having to have your PC be the server. You want it that way and that's great. The majority of DirecTV customers are not PC-centric and don't keep their PC on 24/7.

In my house I have my Xbox running Xbox Media Center and it is a media center. Everything else, including my PC feeds off of it. I can put new music on it via the DVD drive or copy it there via the PC. I can play music off it from from anywhere in the house. I'd simply prefer to have a TiVo box take over that duty.

The bottom line is that while TiVo continues to get the paradigm, and the marketplace, backwards, others will be waking up to get it right. Once that happens, it's going to be hard for those who got it wrong to catch up. Microsoft nearly got it right with the Xbox 360 and then goofed on deciding that a hard drive was a questionable idea. I'll be curious to see if Sony, a company that isn't PC-centric, gets it right with the PS3 or maybe even the Revolution from Nintendo.

Murdoch for supposedly having driven DirecTV into the ground (funny how there are few signs of that) spoke specifically about offering PVR's that do exactly what I'm talking about. I'll believe it when I see one, but he clearly saw the point. He even went so far as to say that they were so important to future plans that he wondered if he'd have to give them away to every customer.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Agrajag said:


> Spoken like the non-typical customer you are. Nothing wrong with that, but you're not exactly swimming in the same pool as the average DirecTV customer.
> 
> All I'm talking about is not having to have your PC be the server. You want it that way and that's great. The majority of DirecTV customers are not PC-centric and don't keep their PC on 24/7.
> 
> ...


Wouldnt you agree that it is more typical that a DirecTV customer would have at least one PC than an Xbox running Xbox Media Center?

You defined me as a non-typical customer, but wouldnt you agree that if I was defined at living on Mars, your typical setup would be defined as living on Pluto?

I know a lot of people who own personal computers, but almost nobody who owns an Xbox which means an Xbox running Xbox Media Center is even rarer.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> #1: DirecTV didn't "dump" TiVo... They continued with the contract and still serviced, activated, and actually still sells DTiVo units (they are in low quanties though). Yes, they have decided to begin to sell their own particular DVR hardware/software solution.... but look at the industry... just about every other carrier out there follows that model... so why shouldn't *DireTV?*


I know you didn't intend this, but your subliminal message was received! DirecTV is very much now *DireTV*!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tall1 said:


> Earl, did your contact mention the 6.2 upgrade because the news release made this possible? Or was this something that D* had been working on all along and the news release had no effect on the rumored Q2-2006 release?


He specifically stated the two had nothing to do with one another.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Let's stick to the US for the "industry."
> 
> ...


The Cable-Co's may not have their own interal developers, but they do have people working on specific versions for them... Correct?

So in essence... they have their "own"... it is just outsourced vs internal writers.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

drew2k said:


> I know you didn't intend this, but your subliminal message was received! DirecTV is very much now *DireTV*!


Oops...


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## askewed (Sep 12, 2000)

Hip Hip! Hooray!


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

shadoh said:


> Exactly! My commitment contract expired a while back. If DirecTV quit offering TiVo service, I'd leave them in a heartbeat. Sure, DirecTV is a decent cable provider, but there are half a dozen "decent" cable providers in my area. I'm committed to my TiVo, not my DirecTV (although, dual tuners... LOVE dual tuners). But I am curious about giving Verizon FiOS a try. Don't give me an excuse, DirecTV!


Interesting.... I am much more interested with the content than the PVR. The PVR is nice, but it does not drive the content decisions for me. I have used DireTV since 1994. I have used TiVo since 1998. I have used TiVo with and without DirecTV. Even if they got rid of DirecTivo I could still use a TiVo with Directv if I so chose. I don't get this rationale where people say they would leave DirecTV if they got rid of DirecTivo. You could always have both and still could.

Since you don't live far from me, I would love to know the half-dozen cable provider options you have for your area. 2 satellites (which are not cable providers), a local cable franchise, and perhaps a telephone company with fiber. That would be best case scenario.

As far as I know none of them offer DirecTivo either.. So again why would that be a relevant part of your decision making. Sounds irrational to me.


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## NFLnut (Apr 22, 2000)

Agrajag said:


> HMO is exactly part of the reason it's clear TiVo lost its way. The only people who give a damn about HMO are techie types that are a blip on the customer map. No typical customer is sitting at home thinking they need this sort of functionality.
> 
> Let's see. I want to play a song. How do I do it? I get a TiVo with HMO. I hook it up. I need my stereo and TV hooked up. I then either run ethernet to my TiVo or learn how to set up a wireless network. That also means I have to get and understand a router and home networking. I then have to keep my PC turned on (remember, most people turn off their PC's unlike a lot of the rest of us).
> 
> ...


Exactly. I'm sure if I asked in THIS forum, "who plays music from their TiVo," and "who looks at jpegs on the TiVo," there would be a fair number of people who would say "I do." But go to Main Street, Average Joe America TiVo-Owner and they would look at you with their mouths hanging open. I would venture to say that MOST TiVo owners, other than the techies here, don't even have a clue that those features exist!

HMO was an absolute waste of resources for TiVo. It's just not a feature set that 99.9% of potential TiVo owners care about! If you DO want to do that, I would suggest plopping a Media Center PC next to the big screen and plugging it in. It works MUCH better.

TiVo should have spent all of their resources on the core function of their software -- which is why people buy TiVos in the first place. Instead, aside from a tweak here or there and the addition of the aforementioned HMO nonsense, TiVo is the same it was back in 2000 when I bought my first one. Oh .. I'll give them enabling the dual tuners. How many years has it been since that happened? (2001)

Having said that, I am NOT happy with DirecTV's now-delayed plans to dump TiVo! I will greatly miss Wishlists, etc. If they didn't have NFL-ST, I would drop them as quickly as my TiVo box stops working!


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 21, 2006)

marksman said:


> Interesting.... I am much more interested with the content than the PVR. The PVR is nice, but it does not drive the content decisions for me. I have used DireTV since 1994. I have used TiVo since 1998. I have used TiVo with and without DirecTV. Even if they got rid of DirecTivo I could still use a TiVo with Directv if I so chose. I don't get this rationale where people say they would leave DirecTV if they got rid of DirecTivo. You could always have both and still could.
> 
> Since you don't live far from me, I would love to know the half-dozen cable provider options you have for your area. 2 satellites (which are not cable providers), a local cable franchise, and perhaps a telephone company with fiber. That would be best case scenario.
> 
> As far as I know none of them offer DirecTivo either.. So again why would that be a relevant part of your decision making. Sounds irrational to me.


How would you use a SA Tivo to record HD content from DirecTV?


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> Wouldnt you agree that it is more typical that a DirecTV customer would have at least one PC than an Xbox running Xbox Media Center?


I never said anywhere that I was a typical customer. However, my vocation deals with mass market forces so it's part of my job to make sure I don't cloud my own judgement with my own desires. In this case I'm not.

I stream to my PC and from my PC (the Xbox 360 streams from the PC) but I also realize that I'm not typical and thus, I don't cast the shadow of my own personal tastes onto the equation that deals with typical consumers.

It doesn't matter if you're on Mars and I'm on Pluto. The rest of the customer base is on Earth and so my thinking leaves both of our home planets out of it. Clearly you've not done the same and therein lies the problem and it's a very common problem at that.

NFLnut, thanks for the supporting post. The part that gets me is that I was a huge TiVo fan and have clearly said that I don't think a PVR lacking TiVo's core functionality is worth very much. However, that doesn't make me blind to the poor decisions that have landed TiVo in the situation they find themselves in today (regardless of the $78MM Echostar outcome which will be tied up for some time). As you pointed out, TiVo failed to improve their core offering for YEARS. My series 1 DirecTiVo just took 7 minutes to move a show from 1st to 8th (out of 11 shows) in the Season Pass area. Here we are years after that product shipped and I read countless posts from others complaining about similar issues with their "current"models. There's no excuse for it.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

HMO is a nice treat, but it's not the killer app. However, I've had many people over my house who, when they saw the MRV feature with my 4 Tivos, were ready to call DirecTV and switch right then and there... Until I told them what it took to modify the Tivo to enable the features. 

And as for people with home networks- I support VPN remote access for 1000 users at my organization. I get 0 support calls for people using dialup at home since we started supporting access over broadband connections. Almost everyone has DSL or Cable with at least a router. Most have wireless. These aren't techie people. If DirecTV sold the DTivo with MRV enabled, and also sold a $20 USB wireless adapter that worked with it, it would have great acceptance beyond just the techies in these forums.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> In other words, my PC through all of my DirecTiVos is a media server..


aye there's the rub.....i never would, nor have a needed to, keep my PC on all the time (damn that must get expensive though). Now i see the difference. Also I dont have broadband or networking etc. So all this other stuff is irrelevant and unnecessary for my situation.



dtremain said:


> Yes. You can toggle between having them on and off with the touch of a button.
> 
> I can't imagine not wanting them. It makes it far easier to find what you want to see.
> 
> I wouldn't want to be a customer of your business if you can't understand the need to keep the customer happy.


Having not had them, i guess i dont know what im missing

as far as keeping a customer happy, are you happy for the past 2 years you didnt get any updates? Are you still with directv even though they didnt get you those updates? If you wanted the update, yet are still with directv, i submit that you must be happy because you have directv still  Think about it. Only if people started getting rid of hdtivos and they stated it was because of 6.2 would there be an even remote chance at a business person wanting to spend money on something that wont have a return. there's no point. you got them where you want them. They are staying with your service despite the fact they hate not having 6.2. Therefore i'd conclude people are happy with what they have. And if they aren't...well they dont have any other option so they have to stay with me  (i'm taking directvs position)

however, i can refute my own argument by pointing out that even microsoft still updates my win98SE machine even though they most certainly want me to buy an upgrade (which i actually have but never installed)


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

marksman said:


> Since you don't live far from me, I would love to know the half-dozen cable provider options you have for your area. .


wow what state are you in? here in PA you are literally stuck with 1 cable provider based on where you live period.......



Agrajag said:


> . My series 1 DirecTiVo just took 7 minutes to move a show from 1st to 8th (out of 11 shows) in the Season Pass area.


dang that sucks. My t60 takes that long but i have 80+ SP so i expect it


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## Frank5575 (Apr 14, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> No, and there probable never will be...
> 
> The HR20 and the HR20p are the only announced MPEG-4 DVRs for DirecTV
> 
> And they are not TiVo powered.


And that is exactly the problem...this deal means nothing that I see for the future. Good old status quo from DirecTV.

Unless D* wakes up and realizes their DVR software is garbage you will not see a Series 3 or an MPEG-4 model DirecTivo.

If you want DirecTV local HD and HD channels you need the new MPEG-4 models and 5-LNB dish. From what I've noticed there are no plans to use Tivo for these models.

I have an R15 and it is a POS. Fast Forward is horrible, Series Link doesn't work, deletes stuff while wathcing it... junk... junk.... junk.

HD is explodng and there will be more content than anyone from D* but if I can't use a Tivo with that I won't be happy.

The best we can hope for out of this 3 year deal is that we get a DirecTivo with the MPEG-4 capabilites but I'm not holding my breath...time will tell.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Don't hold your breath... seriously... there is not going to be an MPEG-4 TiVo powered DVR compatiblie with the MPEG-4 stream that DirecTV is sending out.

And if the R15 isn't for you... then hang onto your current DTivos, or consider another carrier. End of story. The GUI you see in the R15 is the GUI that is going to be in the HR20 and the HR20p, and most likely the Home Media Center... Same GUI that is in their non-dvr products as well.

It will be at least several years until you could "possible" see something else.

With the addition of the 30s Slip and the latest stability fixes, my one R15 is going to replace my DSR704 in my main view area when the TV Season ends (and I caught up on all the recorded items). But alas... discussion of the non-TiVo powered DVRs are not allowed here...

So if you want to chat more about it, head over to www.dbstalk.com


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Agrajag said:


> My series 1 DirecTiVo just took 7 minutes to move a show from 1st to 8th (out of 11 shows) in the Season Pass area. Here we are years after that product shipped and I read countless posts from others complaining about similar issues with their "current"models. There's no excuse for it.


Oh God, I agree, if my DirecTiVo took 7 minutes to move a show from 1st to 8th in the Season Passes area, when I only had 11 Season Passes, I would be upset also. In fact, I wouldnt just be upset I would be mad.

But since my Series 2 DirecTiVos with version 6.2 only takes a small fraction of time (less than 12 seconds) to do that type of move and I have 32 Season Passes, then I believe you can't put all of the blame on TiVo, some of that blame and in fact most if not all of the blame should fall on DirecTV for not having TiVo write an upgrade for your box. Understand that it is DirecTV that controls what upgrades you get for your DirecTiVo, NOT TiVo.

None of us are happy that DirecTV did not release networking and HMO with MRV for the Series 2 DirecTiVos, but I am not mad at TiVo, it is not their fault, it is DirecTV's fault. In fact, TiVo did actually release networking and HMO with MRV for the Series 2 DirecTiVos and did so with the 6.2 release in a round about way, getting around DirecTV's restrictions, so bravo to TiVo for getting around the restrictions that DirecTV imposed on us.

I do have to agree that our situations are not very much like the usual DirecTV customer. I have five Series 2 DirecTiVos (six TiVos in total) and have been with DirecTV since October 1994 and I have worked in the IT industry for almost 34 years. At one time last year, I had 14 personal computers in my home, and no it does not cost a lot to run computers 24 hours a day. The majority of your cost is the cost of powering your CRT not the box. Of course, remember I live on the West Coast and pay about 5 cents a kilowatt hour. Currently I run three servers 24/7 and two desktops 24/7. I have one other server and four other desktops currently in house, but none of them are currently powered on.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> tbeckner said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, my PC through all of my DirecTiVos is a media server..
> ...


At one time last year, I had 14 personal computers in my home, and no it does not cost a lot to run computers 24 hours a day. The majority of your cost is the cost of powering your CRT not the box. Of course, remember I live on the West Coast and pay about 5 cents a kilowatt hour. Currently I run three servers 24/7 and two desktops 24/7. I have one other server and four other desktops currently in house, but none of them are currently powered on.

I have broadband for my business and I use VoIP for my phone service and my house which was built in 1996 was fully wired for CAT 5. I have five active switches and one active router/firewall and five activated DirecTivos, so my situation is likely different than your situation. Then add in almost 34 years of work experience in the IT industry and you can see that I am likely a Nerd and a Geek. In fact, I used pocket protectors even before I went to college and got involved with IT. So, I guess you could say that I am not your average DirecTV customer.

I do from time to time have to remind my kids that the Riches Man in the World is both a Nerd and a Geek, so there really isnt anything wrong with being one. And NO, I do not use pocket protectors today!


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> At one time last year, I had 14 personal computers in my home, and no it does not cost a lot to run computers 24 hours a day. The majority of your cost is the cost of powering your CRT not the box. Of course, remember I live on the West Coast and pay about 5 cents a kilowatt hour. Currently I run three servers 24/7 and two desktops 24/7. I have one other server and four other desktops currently in house, but none of them are currently powered on.


As a matter of curiosity I bought a Kill-A-Watt to put hard numbers with my hunch that it wasn't that expensive to run all my computers and TiVos 24 hours a day. I don't have the numbers here at work, but my memory tells me that my most power hungry machine (server with eight hard drives) cost less than $2 a month to run 24x7. I seem to recall it was around $20 a year.

Also keep in mind that starting up is hard on hard drives and it wears them out much faster than constant use. Also, a computer uses the most electricity at startup, as it's spinning hard drives up from a dead stop.

The dollars saved by shutting computers down and turning them on frequently is likely in the teens each year and it increases your chances of a hardware failure. It doesn't seem worth it to me.

tk


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I have a Kill-A-Watt meter on my main computer setup at home...

A 3GHz 3GB computer w/6 hard drives and 4 DVD/RW drives, 2 Dell 2001FP LCD's, an HP scanner, an HP wide format printer, surround speakers and subwoofer, AT&T desk telephone, another 2.4GHz 1GB computer w/1 hard drive and 1 DVD drive, another Dell 2001FP LCD, a Cisco VoIP phone, chargers for my T-Mobile MDA (and prior cell phones), and a Logitech QuickCam, and occasionally charging my Compaq Notebook.

All this stuff is on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

According to the meter, I've used 1,662 KWH of power in the last 5,488 hours. A year has 8,760 hours, so that extrapolates to 2,653 KWH used per year.

My last electric bill showed I pay $0.115813 per KWH for electricity.

That comes to $307.26 per year for electric power for all that equipment. $0.842 per day.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

I agree completely, the cost to run an average PC 24/7 is very small. A CRT based monitor just like a CRT television is far more expensive than the cost of running the box.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

dswallow said:


> I have a Kill-A-Watt meter on my main computer setup at home...
> 
> A 3GHz 3GB computer w/6 hard drives and 4 DVD/RW drives, 2 Dell 2001FP LCD's, an HP scanner, an HP wide format printer, surround speakers and subwoofer, AT&T desk telephone, another 2.4GHz 1GB computer w/1 hard drive and 1 DVD drive, another Dell 2001FP LCD, a Cisco VoIP phone, chargers for my T-Mobile MDA (and prior cell phones), and a Logitech QuickCam, and occasionally charging my Compaq Notebook.
> 
> ...


Since you pay 11.58 cents per KWH your bill would be less than $133.00 per year at 5 cents per KWH here on the West Coast. And the average PC only has only one hard drive, not six hard drives, so it would likely cost less than $4 per month to run an average PC on the West Coast, 24/7.

Sorry that we changed the subject of the thread for a couple of posts.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

pendragn said:


> Also keep in mind that starting up is hard on hard drives and it wears them out much faster than constant use. Also, a computer uses the most electricity at startup, as it's spinning hard drives up from a dead stop.
> 
> tk


I have an personal issue with that. I've had 2 tivo drives die on me. Haven't had a PC failure this century...and actually 98 or 97 that I think of it. So me booting up every day hasn't caused as much of a problem as with my tivo.


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

Tivo wins patent suit against Echostar. 74 mill. Good news. Looks like D* was smart to make thier deal and avoid a future lawsuit from Tivo. The rest of 'em better watch out.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> I have an personal issue with that. I've had 2 tivo drives die on me. Haven't had a PC failure this century...and actually 98 or 97 that I think of it. So me booting up every day hasn't caused as much of a problem as with my tivo.


It's an interesting situation, but the only hard drive failures I have had in the last decade of PC ownership are the ones caused by the IBM "Pixie Dust" situation and that included Maxtor, because Maxtor and Quantum bought the technology from IBM and used it in their drives, and of course Quantum/Maxtor drives where used in TiVos and the failure point of 'Pixie Dust' drives where the total number of spin hours (power on hours), because the "Pixie Dust' would build up on the drive heads and the drives would start having seek failures and would start clicking (the dreaded click of death).


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> None of us are happy that DirecTV did not release networking and HMO with MRV for the Series 2 DirecTiVos, but I am not mad at TiVo, it is not their fault, it is DirecTV's fault.


Correction. I'm happy they didn't bother and I rarely run into any other DirecTV customer who has complained about it (except here). DirecTV has to think about the impact with respect to millions of customers. Anyone who thinks it's simple to set up, maintain and provide technical support for a home network for potentially millions of people is smoking crack.



> and no it does not cost a lot to run computers 24 hours a day. The majority of your cost is the cost of powering your CRT not the box.


I'm not saying we're paying alot to run our PCs, however many people I know make changes to services to save $20 a year. My parents (retirement age) would never consider leaving their PC's turned on. I defy anyone here to go try and sell non-techies on the idea that leaving their PC's on when they're not using them doesn't cost them enough to bother turning them off. Best of luck.

By the way, I'm also not saying there's anything wrong with being a geek as long as you remember to factor that into your thinking when considering the perspective of the majority of people.

Look, I wonder why everyone hasn't switched to Firefox. Internet Explorer is a mess at times. It doesn't want to follow standards, it's a huge target for malicious software and hasn't been upgraded by Microsoft in years. I also, however, understand that most people aren't as finicky as I am. My father-in-law believes its easier to run 3 different spyware programs every single time he turns on his PC (daily, but still turns it off each night) than to switch to that foreign, non-official browser that the geeks use.

Doug's numbers are telling. The average person will have their PC on for an hour or two a night, at most. That means their bill would be 1/24th of Doug's with comparable equipment (which they wouldn't have), or about $13 versus $300. Let's say they have half the draw. Then it's $7.50 instead of $150. I don't know about you, but if most people, told they could save $140 a year by turning off their PC would do it in a heartbeat. That's $12 a month! That's a savings most people would make changes in service to in order to save money.

Oh, and by the way, these same people are also very skittish about technology in general. My mother, who once fought the bank for 3 years over 11 cents would not consider switching her phone to VOIP to save more than the above amount because it's "just too complicated and will end up causing more trouble than its worth." I had to personally switch her over to satellite back in 1996 and got her a TiVo one year that sat unused for months. She loves it now but has also cursed it many times. A wireless network would be entirely unfathomable.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

My response was to you abour your complaining about TiVo not upgrading your Series 1 software, but again it was not TiVos fault that your Series 1 takes 7 minutes to change a position of a Season Pass, it's DirecTV's fault.

And I don't care if you run your PC 24/7 365, that's up to you. I do it because in my case it's cost and work effect.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i love threadjacks


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## Agrajag (Sep 8, 2001)

So back to the point then. I don't see anything in this agreement that is cause for celebration for any CONSUMER side, unless simply being able to keep using your orphaned product for a bit longer is a big deal.

DirecTV gets to put off providing DirecTV customers with the better features that TiVo has under patent control (just because they can't be sued for three years, I don't expect that DirecTV's PVR's will suddenly start showing up with full "Season Pass" features and such). TiVo gets more income and doesn't get to feel the full effects of being dumped by such a large partner.

Imagine the rejoicing if DirecTV had announced that they'd worked out a LICENSING deal to provide TiVo features in their PVR's even if they aren't TiVo boxes! For me, that might be the best of both worlds. I would gladly buy, for example, a Sony PVR that had TiVo-licensed features (smart FF/RW, season passes, etc.) but that wasn't actually a TiVo box.

I've been arguing for years that TiVo's best path is to forget hardware and focus on simply licensing their software and feature set. Gemstar and others make huge fortunes selling essentially concepts to virtually every manufacturer out there. Minimal overhead, maximized profits and relatively few headaches from customers. To me, that's the best thing that could happen if TiVo can prove they can defend their patents (which still isn't assured with this first round win over Echostar). As it is now, TiVo is a direct competitor to Scientific Atlanta, Motorola and anyone else making a set top box. If they were out of that business I suspect they'd find it a lot easier to dramatically grow their revenue by getting into the boxes everyone else is making. They're going to be making them anyway. Why not have them running TiVo licensed features?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Agrajag said:


> So back to the point then. I don't see anything in this agreement that is cause for celebration for any CONSUMER side, unless simply being able to keep using your orphaned product for a bit longer is a big deal.


it is for me..i'm thrilled. 2 hdtivos thru 2010 at least.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> The Cable-Co's may not have their own interal developers, but they do have people working on specific versions for them... Correct?
> 
> So in essence... they have their "own"... it is just outsourced vs internal writers.


No, what they have is the DirecTiVo model. Hardware and software coming from an outside source (Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, et al) with specific requirements met for their systems. That is a DirecTiVo. At least in the days when the plates said Hughes, Sony et al.

The user interface between cable companies is almost identical based upon the hardware. I can use a Motorola unit on two cable companies in Anne Arundel County Maryland and they are almost identical.

The only US provider who did DVRs internally was DiSH. How is that going?

I think DirecTV made a big mistake.


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## tgibbs (Sep 22, 2002)

Both TiVo and D* bought insurance with this deal. But now that TiVo has won the Echostar suit, D* may need to rethink the reasons that led them to move away from TiVo in the first place. They were hoping to save money with a home-grown DVR, but now, once the new agreement expires, they'll probably end up paying royalties to TiVo anyway. So D* may start thinking that trying to move away from TiVo wasn't such a profitable idea after all.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

beanpoppa said:


> And as for people with home networks- I support VPN remote access for 1000 users at my organization. I get 0 support calls for people using dialup at home since we started supporting access over broadband connections. Almost everyone has DSL or Cable with at least a router. Most have wireless.


I don't think that is a totally accurate point. All of those low end routers come completely wide open with virtually no security to just make it simple enough for the average consumer to plug these things in and actually use it in a reasonable amount of time without getting frustrated and throwing out the window. It's all plug and play and don't generally require alot of post configuration after plugging them in. You get the standard 192.168... internal ip address.


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## sean_mba (Apr 26, 2005)

I think that all of this oopens the door for TIVO to start listening to suitors for buying the company. Winning the suit gives David (TIVO) a sling shot to finally use against the Goliath (Comcast, D*, Microsoft, AT&T etc.). Each one of those companies can choose to either compete with TIVO with an inferior product that carries the risk of getting them sued for patent infringement if they try to make it as TIVO as possible. Or, they can pay TIVO the licensing fee and then compete with one another. Or, one of them can step up, buy TIVO and have the hammer that the other content providers will have to pay them to use. 

You'll notice that I lumped Microsoft in with the content providers. A HTMCPC is a LOT more attractive to me with the TIVO platform as an option. I think that the convergence movement is great, but it won't happen in my home without a suitable TIVO component to it. Microsoft has bought, not developed, most of the technology that makes up the Windows that we know today. It's a long shot, but I think that it is a possibility. Microsoft is still kicking themselves for letting Apple get a toe hold on the audio portion of our living rooms. If they really believe that the PC of tomorrow resides in the living room, TIVO is a good way for them to get their foot in the door.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

can't there be an appeal for that lawsuit? (last for years etc)


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

newsposter said:


> can't there be an appeal for that lawsuit? (last for years etc)


Of course, and Echostar has already indicated its' intent to appeal.

But, until such an appeal is heard, Tivo has far more leverage in dealing with other MSOs than they did on Wednesday.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> Since you pay 11.58 cents per KWH your bill would be less than $133.00 per year at 5 cents per KWH here on the West Coast. And the average PC only has only one hard drive, not six hard drives, so it would likely cost less than $4 per month to run an average PC on the West Coast, 24/7.


Electricity for YOU in Oregon is 5 cents per KWH. I live in San Jose, CA and for me w/ripoff PG&E, my last electric bill came out to 12.07 cents per KWH.

I've done some very recent comparisons w/some people who have Puget Sound Energy (I used to live in the Puget Sound area) and PSE is about 1/2 the price of PG&E down here. Seattle City and Light is even less $.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

cwerdna said:


> Electricity for YOU in Oregon is 5 cents per KWH. I live in San Jose, CA and for me w/ripoff PG&E, my last electric bill came out to 12.07 cents per KWH.
> 
> I've done some very recent comparisons w/some people who have Puget Sound Energy (I used to live in the Puget Sound area) and PSE is about 1/2 the price of PG&E down here. Seattle City and Light is even less $.


Actually PSE is expensive, try the PUD's in Washington for true greenpower hydro based lower cost electricity. (why aren't the utilities prompting hydro as greenpower?, it is!)


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

newsposter said:


> tbeckner said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, my PC through all of my DirecTiVos is a media server..
> ...


I have to keep the 3 servers and 2 of the 3 desktops on for business 24/7. But the cost of electricity even POST-ENRON, in the Northwest even from an expensive supplier like Pacific Power is reasonable.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> From what I was told by my contact earlier today...
> 
> 3) They will obviously continue to support and accept activations of the units


I have 6 activated DTV Tivo's and 5 spares (4 SD and 1 HD) in case of failures.

If any of my units go bad, will I be able to activate replacement units through 2010 or not? I think the original cut-off date was 2-15-07.

I just want to make sure that under the deal I can activate a replacement even after 2-15-07 or my extra receivers are useless except for parts.

Thanks in advance.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Philly Bill said:


> Dude.. you are a DISGRACE to your roots!


Ahem. I also run this site. 

http://www.americasteamsucks.com


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

i dont get it..why does Steam from America suck?


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