# Upgrading from TivoHD to...Tivo Premiere or HTPC?



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

In essence: should I stay with two TivoHDs, upgrade to a pair of Tivo Premieres, get the Comcast DVR, or build an Win7 HTPC with extender? Wife Approval Factor must be met, since she manages the TV schedules 


I've been using Tivo since 2006; before that I was a big VCR user  Through this forum, I got a free S2D2 in 2006, and my wife liked it so much that we upgraded to a pair of TivoHDs in 2009 when we switched to HDTV. The TivoHDs are great (and we're now changing them from OTA HDTV with about 10 channels to a cable-card config with about 1000 channels.)

But it's been three years and I'm interested in upgrading. In particular, I want a four tuner system and faster room-to-room transfers.

A year ago, if asked, I'd have thought without a doubt I'd get the next Tivo. But comments and reviews, online and from a trusted friend, on the Tivo Premiere are generally not good.

So I'm considering a Windows 7 Media Center Computer. The benefit would be a unified media system. I could rip all my DVDs and Blu-rays and have those as easily available as TV. I could have a master tuner system that controls all TV recording, and is distributed to the bedroom extender (no more juggling programming of two independent boxes). It could play my music (Tivo won't play music from a Mac computer).

Cost is not a big factor. I'm paying monthly currently. If I upgrade to Premieres, I'l get lifetime. My cost estimates for Tivo show a minimum of $800 for the next three years, and at least $1000 for an upgrade.


Option 1:
Keep current pair of TivoHD's
$22/mo for 3 years
Total: $790

Option 2:
Upgrade to Tivo Premiere: 2 * $100
$20 + $15 / mo for 3 years
Total: $1460

Option 3:
Upgrade to Tivo Premiere: 2 * $100
2 x $400 Lifetime subs
Total: $1000


In comparison, I've priced a new Win7 HTPC with extender at about $1800. Definitely under $2000. Double a new Tivo system, but not outrageous. And it would integrate all my media.

I've seen opinions at HTF and AVS. They're pretty pro HTPC  As a current Tivo user, and fan of "easy to use", I'm curious how the Tivo crowd feels about the choices, in 2012, to upgrade Tivo or change to HTPC?


----------



## Len McRiddles (Dec 21, 2002)

Paging mr.unnatural. Please pick up the white courtesy phone.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Your price for a Win 7 PC with a Ceton InfiniTV 4 cablecard tuner is way off target. You can easily build one to do what you want for well under $1000. I've been using Tivos for about 12 years and HTPCs for about five. My one remaining Tivo with lifetime is attached to a TV in the family room for use as a tuner. I rarely, if ever, use it for recording chores anymore.

Setting up and using a Win 7 Media Center PC is much easier and far less stressful than it once was, especially compared with Win XP and Vista. The current hardware works better and is geared more towards HTPC use these days. My recommendation would be to start off by adding an inexpensive ATSC tuner to an existing Win 7 PC and see how you and your wife like it before taking the plunge. Then, if you decide to move ahead with your project, check out assassin's thread over at the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums for recommended components to build your HTPC.

Another option would be to wait until Ceton's Q DVR and Echo extenders are released later this year. The DVR has six cablecard tuners (only requires a single cablecard) and the Echo extender works with either the Q DVR or any standard Win 7 Media Center PC. You're get the best use of the extender's abilities if you pair it with the Q DVR. No release dates have been set for either device other than it's been promised to be out before the end of the year. Included features are still being decided on, but it looks like a real Tivo beater. The good news is that there are no monthly service fees attached.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

ShoutingMan said:


> In essence: should I stay with two TivoHDs, upgrade to a pair of Tivo Premieres, get the Comcast DVR, or build an Win7 HTPC with extender? Wife Approval Factor must be met, since she manages the TV schedules
> 
> I've been using Tivo since 2006; before that I was a big VCR user  Through this forum, I got a free S2D2 in 2006, and my wife liked it so much that we upgraded to a pair of TivoHDs in 2009 when we switched to HDTV. The TivoHDs are great (and we're now changing them from OTA HDTV with about 10 channels to a cable-card config with about 1000 channels.)
> 
> ...


Here's a thought - keep both HDs, buy one Premiere, and get lifetime on all of them. Total cost would likely be $700. There is an active thread about getting $99 lifetime on long-term contract Tivos. In summary, it generally requires that you buy a new Premiere with lifetime at the MSD price of about $500. Later on, call to cancel monthly service on one or both HDs. If you get a friendly phone rep, you will get offered lifetime for $99 on each HD. Keep one and sell one on eBay for about $300. Net cost $400 for the remaining HD and Premiere, with no more monthly fees.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Your price for a Win 7 PC with a Ceton InfiniTV 4 cablecard tuner is way off target. You can easily build one to do what you want for well under $1000.


I should comment on my potential build since it's not wholly conventional: I'm looking at two 3 TB drives to rip, but not transcode, all my movies  I've also got a Ceton planned, and allotted $300 for an extender (be it Xbox or upcoming Ceton Echo). That alone takes me to $1000. Add in an i3 system where I've not yet hunted for deals or rebates, and my top-end price is about $1800.

I've been following along the Assassin thread at AVS. Great info, but it's centered on how-to, not how-is-it  AVS is a superb resource but tastes there don't always prioritize Tivo / Apple ease of use. (I've also been talking with MattCR at HTF, who's got a lot of experience on HTPCs.)

Coming here, I hope to get some good thoughts, like yours, on how the experience might compare to Tivo.

Or, to get comments from people that the Premiere has been fixed of its problems and is now a must-upgrade for Tivo fans. Or to hear that there's a new Tivo successor coming out real soon now that will be a must have...


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> My recommendation would be to start off by adding an inexpensive ATSC tuner to an existing Win 7 PC and see how you and your wife like it before taking the plunge.


I don't have an existing Win 7 PC (or any PC. Mac only, and nothing that can be used for this). So I have build from scratch.


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

It sounds like you've already done your research and are waiting on comments to verify it.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

lillevig said:


> Here's a thought - keep both HDs, buy one Premiere, and get lifetime on all of them. Total cost would likely be $700. There is an active thread about getting $99 lifetime on long-term contract Tivos. In summary, it generally requires that you buy a new Premiere with lifetime at the MSD price of about $500. Later on, call to cancel monthly service on one or both HDs. If you get a friendly phone rep, you will get offered lifetime for $99 on each HD. Keep one and sell one on eBay for about $300. Net cost $400 for the remaining HD and Premiere, with no more monthly fees.


That's an interesting plan I've not heard about. If a Tivo Premiere is the best service to upgrade, I'll look into it.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

donnoh said:


> It sounds like you've already done your research and are waiting on comments to verify it.


I like having my opinions confirmed. 

But there might be new info on Tivos since I last looked. Or there might be people that tried an HTPC and can point to very negative ways it compares to Tivo. There are extremely few reviews on HTPCs, and I've only found one detailed comparison between an Win7 MC and Tivo Premiere and it was from two years ago.

I'm open to new data.


----------



## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I have been using TiVos for about 10 years. I had the HD and HDXL and just recently upgraded the HD to the new Elite. I couldn't be happier. I love the four tuners, the HD menus and the faster transfers (almost twice as fast).

There is no way I can cost justify doing this, just like I can't cost justify trading my Ford Fusion for a BMW.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

jrm01 said:


> I have been using TiVos for about 10 years. I had the HD and HDXL and just recently upgraded the HD to the new Elite. I couldn't be happier. I love the four tuners, the HD menus and the faster transfers (almost twice as fast).
> 
> There is no way I can cost justify doing this, just like I can't cost justify trading my Ford Fusion for a BMW.


How's the experience with the Premiere Elite? The early reviews, and even for the next year or so, were the the total experience was slower and worse than the TivoHD. Has that been improved with updates?

On the HD interface: last I really looked into it, that was a sore point. It sounds like that's really improved.

What's the speed boost on the Premiere for transferring files? The HD is "g" I think, and has always transferred in about real time for me (about an hour to transfer an hour-long HD show). The Premiere is "n", and can go 5x or 10x faster?


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> I should comment on my potential build since it's not wholly conventional: I'm looking at two 3 TB drives to rip, but not transcode, all my movies  I've also got a Ceton planned, and allotted $300 for an extender (be it Xbox or upcoming Ceton Echo). That alone takes me to $1000. Add in an i3 system where I've not yet hunted for deals or rebates, and my top-end price is about $1800.


A new 4GB slim XBox 360 is only $199 list and can be had for a bit less. The Ceton Echo is expected to be priced lower than the 360.



> I've been following along the Assassin thread at AVS. Great info, but it's centered on how-to, not how-is-it  AVS is a superb resource but tastes there don't always prioritize Tivo / Apple ease of use. (I've also been talking with MattCR at HTF, who's got a lot of experience on HTPCs.)
> 
> Coming here, I hope to get some good thoughts, like yours, on how the experience might compare to Tivo.


I've used them both for quite some time now and I have to say I'm more partial to the HTPC with Windows Media Center. The wife uses the Tivo, but only for watching live TV (I love her, but she is completely inept when it comes to technology). I like being able to do everything in my home theater using a single device. From a user standpoint, it's no more difficult to use than a Tivo, IMHO. The menus are easy to navigate and the learning curve is quite short. The one major caveat that turns people off to HTPCs is the fact that they're PCs and carry all the same baggage as any standard desktop PC. The trick is, once you've got it set up the way you want it and everything is working fine, leave it alone. Don't be tempted by the upgrade bug and start tweaking things. That's where most people have problems. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Tivos are great DVRs, but I haven't seen anything that would make me want to upgrade from my current S3 Tivo to any of the newer models. I look at the laundry list of additional features that have been added since the S3 and it all boils down to useless fluff, IMHO. There's not too much a Tivo can do that I can't do with my HTPC, and the HTPC can do far more. If you plan on using your HTPC for movie playback from ripped DVDs or Blu-Ray discs then Tivo isn't even in the running.

If you plan on ripping a lot of movies and need a lot of storage then you might want to consider an alternative solution such as Windows Home Server, unRAID, or FlexRaid. I've got a 20TB unRAID server and I can access it from any PC in the house. I use it mainly for storing ripped DVDs and Blu-Ray movies that can be streamed to any PC on the network.

I tend to be more cost conscious and I just can't justify the new higher rates that Tivo is charging, especially if you're looking at the $99 Premiere offer at $20 per month. I always chuckle when I read threads about people wanting to "cut the cord" because they're still paying Tivo for the privilege of recording free TV. With a PC, I don't have to pay extra for lifetime service.

You can certainly spend a lot more for a PC, but once you've got it built there are no other fees involved, except perhaps a monthly cablecard rental and contract with a cable or satellite service provider. You can always re-purpose an HTPC for other uses if you change your mind about using it. With a Tivo, you've got a nice expensive doorstop.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> ...
> 
> I've been using Tivo since 2006; before that I was a big VCR user  Through this forum, I got a free S2D2 in 2006, and my wife liked it so much that we upgraded to a pair of TivoHDs in 2009 when we switched to HDTV. The TivoHDs are great (and we're now changing them from OTA HDTV with about 10 channels to a cable-card config with about 1000 channels.)...


So what did you do with that dual tuner S2?

Was it lifetimed?


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> A new 4GB slim XBox 360 is only $199 list and can be had for a bit less. The Ceton Echo is expected to be priced lower than the 360.


I hope that's so, but until there's a price announced, I'll assume they mean cheaper than the (most expensive) XBox 360  which is $299+

Good info on your experience. My hope is to set it up and not fiddle after that. I'm still figuring out storage options. I'd hoped not to spend on an external RAID system. What I've seen so far adds hundreds of dollars, just for the controller and enclosure.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

unitron said:


> So what did you do with that dual tuner S2?


Sold it on eBay in 2009, after getting the TivoHDs


----------



## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I don't like relying on only a single device as I am a TVaholic :> and would be crushed if/when it fails which is why I didn't go for the new TiVo 4 tuner unit or a computer based one.

I would rather pay a little more and have multiple dual units than just 1 everything one.

I remember before when my HD died and I only had 1 TiVo and I was crushed  for the few days it took me to order one off Ebay and it to come.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> I hope that's so, but until there's a price announced, I'll assume they mean cheaper than the (most expensive) XBox 360  which is $299+
> 
> Good info on your experience. My hope is to set it up and not fiddle after that. I'm still figuring out storage options. I'd hoped not to spend on an external RAID system. What I've seen so far adds hundreds of dollars, just for the controller and enclosure.


Actually, I would expect it to be priced lower than the least expensive XBox 360. Otherwise, it would not likely be competitive. Based on what I've seen demonstrated and the size of the box I'd wager it will probably be priced around $150.

unRAID runs off of a USB flash drive and there's a freeware version that supports three drives (two data and one parity). You can get away with an inexpensive AMD setup to run it. Windows Home Server goes on sale for about $50 quite often. FlexRaid is free, IIRC. I only mentioned the server option because it would allow you to keep your movies stored remotely and cause less heat and noise to be generated in the HTPC that will likely be located in the viewing area. It's just something to consider down the road if and when you decide to expand your system.



Rkkeller said:


> I don't like relying on only a single device as I am a TVaholic :> and would be crushed if/when it fails which is why I didn't go for the new TiVo 4 tuner unit or a computer based one.
> 
> I would rather pay a little more and have multiple dual units than just 1 everything one.
> 
> I remember before when my HD died and I only had 1 TiVo and I was crushed  for the few days it took me to order one off Ebay and it to come.


I'm also a diehard couch potato. Having a single source unit for recording and distributing TV throughout your home is a double-edged sword. When it works, it's great. When it fails, everyone suffers. The trick is to have contingencies in case of emergencies. I always keep a few spare hard drives around in case of a drive failure. PC problems aren't that difficult to get around if you can diagnose them properly. The same goes for Tivos. I've never had a Tivo that I couldn't get back up and running within a short period of time (usually less than one hour). Then again, if it's a problem with the power supply or mainboard you've got larger issues.

There are pros and cons for both Tivos and HTPCs. You have to decide what you want and what you can live with in case of a failure. There is no perfect solution. I would actually prefer to have multiple PCs rather than extenders, but they offer a completely different set of problems, same as multiple Tivos.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

Just a few thoughts, having had a Windows Media Center HTPC for several years that I got rid of when I moved in with my now-wife four years ago.

1. While things have gotten better, I think that there's still more upkeep involved with an HTPC. Updates, drivers, technical issues, etc. Looking at the now-defunct green button forums, it seems that people more regularly had disruptive technical problems. Fixing them might require reconfiguration, etc that you don't have to deal with with a Tivo. Though many people also have great experiences. I'm told that people generally have had somewhat better experiences with the cable card turners HDHR and Ceton that have come out during the last year.

This issue above can ameliorated somewhat by using only extenders for playback (since you don't have to deal with codecs on the main machine), but this presents other problems.

2. It's my understanding that there is not any extender that can handle blu-ray rips without significant transcoding. They all have codec issues. This is extremely frustrating since there are and have been many other streaming products released during the last few years that can handle these formats.

3. I personally find that the amount of lag in existing extenders, including the Xbox 360, to be unsatisfactory. Many people do not mind it though. It depends how lag sensitive you are and how much you browse/fast forward, etc. The Tivo however, provides a much more pleasurable in-show navigation interface.

4. Extenders do not support most streaming services such as Netflix or Hulu. The Xbox 360 can do so, but it requires that you go outside of the media center extender interface and pay for an Xbox membership. There are also some plugins that work with the Playon service to deliver netflix/hulu streaming but these do not support high definition and have limitations on fast-forwarding.

5. You cannot use a computer as an extender, which would solve several of the above extender limitations. There are some solutions that allow tuners to be shared between machines, but then you're back to the Tivo model of multiple recording devices.

6. The best-performing extender, the Xbox 360, isn't terribly attractive and is noisier than some people like for their bedrooms.

7. 7MC has a much more attractive and HD-friendly interface and many more plugins. However, the support community isn't on average as knowledgeable and helpful as the Tivo community.

This isn't so much a knock on 7MC so much as Tivo having a really great community, which has provided very knowledgeable support on complicated technical questions. I'll also never forget a few years ago when, after every other commercial was warning about the analog broadcast shutdown over a six month period, someone posted to complain that her analog broadcast channels weren't working. She wasn't mocked at all and received very specific instructions about how to get her adapter set up.

Anyway, this sounds like an argument against going with 7MC, but I do still miss having a computer PVR. If Ceton's new Echo extender product is well received and addresses the issues above, I might consider going to a 7MC setup



ShoutingMan said:


> In essence: should I stay with two TivoHDs, upgrade to a pair of Tivo Premieres, get the Comcast DVR, or build an Win7 HTPC with extender? Wife Approval Factor must be met, since she manages the TV schedules
> 
> I've been using Tivo since 2006; before that I was a big VCR user  Through this forum, I got a free S2D2 in 2006, and my wife liked it so much that we upgraded to a pair of TivoHDs in 2009 when we switched to HDTV. The TivoHDs are great (and we're now changing them from OTA HDTV with about 10 channels to a cable-card config with about 1000 channels.)
> 
> ...


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ShoutingMan said:


> In essence: should I stay with two TivoHDs, upgrade to a pair of Tivo Premieres, get the Comcast DVR, or build an Win7 HTPC with extender? Wife Approval Factor must be met, since she manages the TV schedules
> 
> I've been using Tivo since 2006; before that I was a big VCR user  Through this forum, I got a free S2D2 in 2006, and my wife liked it so much that we upgraded to a pair of TivoHDs in 2009 when we switched to HDTV. The TivoHDs are great (and we're now changing them from OTA HDTV with about 10 channels to a cable-card config with about 1000 channels.)
> 
> ...


With Cost not being a big factor I will recommend another option:

New 4 tuner Premiere Elite with lifetime cost: $900
New Premiere with lifetime Cost: $500
New Tuner-less HTPC (basically any Win 7 PC with HDMI and blu-ray) Cost $700+/-
The above would give you 6 tuners, plenty of storage, streaming between the Premieres and the HTPC to do all the other things you mentioned.

Of course I am assuming you have one primary TV and that TV would have the Elite and HTPC attached to it.

Good Luck,


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

fyodor said:


> Just a few thoughts, having had a Windows Media Center HTPC for several years that I got rid of when I moved in with my now-wife four years ago.


Win 7 Media Center is a far cry from what was being used four years ago. Simply no comparison.



> 1. While things have gotten better, I think that there's still more upkeep involved with an HTPC. Updates, drivers, technical issues, etc. Looking at the now-defunct green button forums, it seems that people more regularly had disruptive technical problems. Fixing them might require reconfiguration, etc that you don't have to deal with with a Tivo. Though many people also have great experiences. I'm told that people generally have had somewhat better experiences with the cable card turners HDHR and Ceton that have come out during the last year.


As with most public forums, you'll hear more complaints than good experiences. People tend to post in forums only when they have a problem they can't resolve. There are probably far more HTPC users having no issues than what you're hearing about.



> This issue above can ameliorated somewhat by using only extenders for playback (since you don't have to deal with codecs on the main machine), but this presents other problems.
> 
> 2. It's my understanding that there is not any extender that can handle blu-ray rips without significant transcoding. They all have codec issues. This is extremely frustrating since there are and have been many other streaming products released during the last few years that can handle these formats.


While it's only speculation at this point, it is hoped that the upcoming Ceton Echo will be able to handle Blu-Rays.



> 3. I personally find that the amount of lag in existing extenders, including the Xbox 360, to be unsatisfactory. Many people do not mind it though. It depends how lag sensitive you are and how much you browse/fast forward, etc. The Tivo however, provides a much more pleasurable in-show navigation interface.


I agree about the extender lag, which is but one reason why I've stopped using them. It wasn't that much of an issue, but still a bit annoying. How much more "pleasurable" the Tivo interface is tends to be a matter of personal preference. I find WMC equally as pleasurable to use. Both user interfaces are nothing more than a graphical menu scheme that allows you to navigate between various options and settings.



> 4. Extenders do not support most streaming services such as Netflix or Hulu. The Xbox 360 can do so, but it requires that you go outside of the media center extender interface and pay for an Xbox membership. There are also some plugins that work with the Playon service to deliver netflix/hulu streaming but these do not support high definition and have limitations on fast-forwarding.


None of which are of any importance to me. Obviously, YMMV. The streaming services you mentioned are either of lower resolution and inferior audio or are riddled with commercials.



> 5. You cannot use a computer as an extender, which would solve several of the above extender limitations. There are some solutions that allow tuners to be shared between machines, but then you're back to the Tivo model of multiple recording devices.


True, but if you're with a provider like FIOS that doesn't inject the copy once flag you can still share recordings between PCs and assign tuners to each one.



> 6. The best-performing extender, the Xbox 360, isn't terribly attractive and is noisier than some people like for their bedrooms.


The current 360's are still unacceptable for use in a bedroom and the older ones are even worse. I'm really looking forward to the Echo extender. It may finally be the extender everyone's been waiting for.



> 7. 7MC has a much more attractive and HD-friendly interface and many more plugins. However, the support community isn't on average as knowledgeable and helpful as the Tivo community.


Seriously? Check out the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums, the Missing Remote, and Hack7MC. You've already mentioned The Green Button, which has been integrated into another Microsoft forum site, but it's my least favorite WMC support forum.



> This isn't so much a knock on 7MC so much as Tivo having a really great community, which has provided very knowledgeable support on complicated technical questions. I'll also never forget a few years ago when, after every other commercial was warning about the analog broadcast shutdown over a six month period, someone posted to complain that her analog broadcast channels weren't working. She wasn't mocked at all and received very specific instructions about how to get her adapter set up.
> 
> Anyway, this sounds like an argument against going with 7MC, but I do still miss having a computer PVR. If Ceton's new Echo extender product is well received and addresses the issues above, I might consider going to a 7MC setup


Lots of good folks that support Tivos here. There's also another great Tivo forum at DDB, but it's geared more towards hackers and tweakers.


----------



## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

"ameliorated"

I had to look up that word. I've never encountered that in normal conversation.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Actually, I would expect it to be priced lower than the least expensive XBox 360. Otherwise, it would not likely be competitive. Based on what I've seen demonstrated and the size of the box I'd wager it will probably be priced around $150.


That would be great.



> unRAID runs off of a USB flash drive and there's a freeware version that supports three drives (two data and one parity). You can get away with an inexpensive AMD setup to run it.


Some sort of RAID may be necessary for me. I need to do a detailed accounting of my discs. (currently boxed, having recently moved  )


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

fyodor said:


> Just a few thoughts, having had a Windows Media Center HTPC for several years that I got rid of when I moved in with my now-wife four years ago.
> 
> 2. It's my understanding that there is not any extender that can handle blu-ray rips without significant transcoding. They all have codec issues. This is extremely frustrating since there are and have been many other streaming products released during the last few years that can handle these formats.


This has been a concern and a confusion to me. It would push me to have the master unit on the main TV. Streamed content to the bedroom would be less a concern in absolute quality.



> 3. I personally find that the amount of lag in existing extenders, including the Xbox 360, to be unsatisfactory. Many people do not mind it though. It depends how lag sensitive you are and how much you browse/fast forward, etc. The Tivo however, provides a much more pleasurable in-show navigation interface.


Another big concern / confusion to me. Looking at some YouTube videos on extenders, and some show incredible lag (8+ seconds to change channels). Others show Tivo-like performance. I've talked to some people who find the slow videos baffling. My best guess is that it's driven by the master unit and network speed. I need to learn more because terrible lag will kill WAF and would make this a non-starter for me



> 6. The best-performing extender, the Xbox 360, isn't terribly attractive and is noisier than some people like for their bedrooms.


 It's attractive enough for my living room, so it would be OK for the bedroom  I'll start with my 360 as extender and go from there.

But I am concerned about noise in the master unit. TivoHD is silent. A custom-built HTPC? Won't know until it's built. Need to learn more.



> 7. 7MC has a much more attractive and HD-friendly interface and many more plugins. However, the support community isn't on average as knowledgeable and helpful as the Tivo community.


I'd say the HTPC community is every bit the equal, or stronger, than Tivo. The challenge is Tivo is plug-and-play and requires minimal support. An HTPC is a custom-purpose PC with many more moving parts that can be hard to trouble-shoot in a forum.

Great thoughts and idea. Thanks.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> With Cost not being a big factor I will recommend another option:
> ...
> Of course I am assuming you have one primary TV and that TV would have the Elite and HTPC attached to it.
> 
> Good Luck,


I'd previously written off that idea, looking for a pure and holistic solution  But it's actually a good backup plan for my tastes. Build a media-center system. If the 7MC is not so good, sell the tuner card used and keep the HTPC for movies and upgrade to Premiere for TV.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> But I am concerned about noise in the master unit. TivoHD is silent. A custom-built HTPC? Won't know until it's built. Need to learn more.


My S3 Tivo is actually noisier than my HTPC. With carefully chosen components you can make a PC near dead silent. Check out silentpcreview.com for reviews of products to make your PC quieter.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I agree about the extender lag, which is but one reason why I've stopped using them. It wasn't that much of an issue, but still a bit annoying. How much more "pleasurable" the Tivo interface is tends to be a matter of personal preference. I find WMC equally as pleasurable to use. Both user interfaces are nothing more than a graphical menu scheme that allows you to navigate between various options and settings.


I was referring specifically to the playback interface-fast forwarding, rewinding, jumping around. I don't really like the TiVo interface generally.



mr.unnatural said:


> Seriously? Check out the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums, the Missing Remote, and Hack7MC. You've already mentioned The Green Button, which has been integrated into another Microsoft forum site, but it's my least favorite WMC support forum.


The HTPC subforum on AVSforums has a lot of very smart people, but most of the discussion is focused on playback of recorded/stored media. At least as of a year ago there weren't many threads addressing TV recording. While there are a lot of people who know a ****load about the technical aspects of digital video and audio, the participants aren't always especially helpful.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> Another big concern / confusion to me. Looking at some YouTube videos on extenders, and some show incredible lag (8+ seconds to change channels). Others show Tivo-like performance. I've talked to some people who find the slow videos baffling. My best guess is that it's driven by the master unit and network speed. I need to learn more because terrible lag will kill WAF and would make this a non-starter for me


I had my Xbox connected via MoCA (80 megabit/s] to a fairly fast desktop and was still not happy with the performance. I am, I concede, unusually finicky about bouncing around and switching between content.



ShoutingMan said:


> But I am concerned about noise in the master unit. TivoHD is silent. A custom-built HTPC? Won't know until it's built. Need to learn more.


There are some pretty quiet custom setups out there. AVSforums has some good threads on it.



ShoutingMan said:


> Great thoughts and idea. Thanks.


Glad to help. Good luck.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

fyodor said:


> The HTPC subforum on AVSforums has a lot of very smart people, but most of the discussion is focused on playback of recorded/stored media. At least as of a year ago there weren't many threads addressing TV recording. While there are a lot of people who know a ****load about the technical aspects of digital video and audio, the participants aren't always especially helpful.


You should check there more frequently. With the introduction of the Ceton InfiniTV4 cablecard tuner over a year ago and the subsequent spinoffs from Hauppauge and SiliconDust, there are tons of threads about TV recording. A lot of the TV recording discussions take place outside of the Home Theater Computer foum so you might want to look there as well.

OTOH, I'm not exactly sure what kind of discussions you're looking for. With digital cable and OTA, the broadcast stream is basically just dumped to your hard drive as is. Other than having poor reception, playback is where any problems are going to occur, hence the proliferation of threads discussing it.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Also check www.thegreenbutton.tv for the new home of the Green Button folks, tons of help for WMC there.

I run both Tivos and a Silicondust HD Homerun Prime cablecard HTPC setup in my home (with Linksys and Xbox extenders) and they both work well. Tivos are easier for the wife to use but she manages with the extenders in our secondary rooms. There are pros and cons to both setups - I personally like the Tivos because they'll play a ton of stuff with pyTivo running on the PC, extenders suck for anything other than live or recorded TV.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

I've used both options and I find the HTPC to simply be an unacceptable solution for everyday TV watching. It's great as a companion device, but for DVR functionality I've had nothing but errors and issues and the channel changing is slow and tedious.

Just for the record, Engadget did a review of this topic and came to the same basic conclusion.... HTPCs running WMC are simply too "awkward" to use, require too much maintenance and cost too much. "Awkward" is not the best word, but giving a full explanation would take a big list... suffice it to say, everything you do just feels slow and more difficult than it should be.

Because, simply and obviously, it's a PC. 

If you miss the functionality an HTPC will provide over a TiVo, get a Roku, a tablet with a line out or a copy of PlayOn software. I am sure some combination of those will do whatever it is you want to do that a TiVo doesn't do.

Seriously, I despise cable company DVRs, but I would go back to a cable company DVR before I would consider using my HTPC full time as my cable box. It is a complete and total non-starter as an everyday cable box/DVR replacement device.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I use my HTPC for watching TV every day and have no problems doing so. I built my first HTPC using XP and BeyondTV about five years ago and I've truly enjoyed the experience. The DVR functionality in WMC works extremely well and is quite simple to configure and use. I don't channel surf because everything I want to watch has already been recorded for me. Tivos and HTPCs suck for channel surfing, but who really does that anymore, especially with a DVR? I've never understood why people click mindlessly throufgh TV channels in search of something to watch. I plan my TV viewing ahead of time using season passes with an occasional single recording of a special program. I've always got something queued up to watch on any day and any time.

I recently watched the podcast with the guys from Engadget when they interviewed the reps from Ceton along with Michael Welter from the Missing Remote at the latest CES. The Engadget host admitted he doesn't watch much TV at all, so I tend to take whatever he says about TV viewing with a grain of salt.

HTPCs are a niche product aimed at the PC tweaker and enthusiast. It's not geared towards the average consumer. However, with Win 7 Media Center and the latest cablecard tuners it's attracting more mainstream users than ever before.

HTPCs are no more awkward to use than a Tivo, IMHO, at least not within Media Center. Granted, if you have any sort of issue with the PC then you've got to deal with PC problems. OTOH, if you have issues with your Tivo you're generally in worse shape because the average consumer may know a little about PC problems but diddly squat about fixing Tivos.

If you've had nothing but issues with your HTPC then I feel for you. Chances are you didn't have something set up properly, had driver conflicts, had something running in the background that interefered with the current operation, or any number of problems that were probably simple to rectify. I was watching a Blu-Ray movie with the wife last night and in the middle of the movie it started stuttering badly and freezing up. A quick check of the running processes in task manager revealed the problem. I discovered that I had somehow configured Win 7 to perform a complete backup at that particular time. When I terminated the backup process, the movie resumed playback as smooth as silk. I had never noticed it previously because I was usually watching recorded TV or a football game, both of which used far less processing power from the CPU.

I've certainly had my share of problems with HTPCs over the years, but most of them were either hardware related or a lack of understanding how to properly configure something on my part. My current HTPC has been rock steady for well over a year now. The only issues I ever experience are occasional stuttering when streaming Blu-Rays from my server. A quick reboot of the server and/or HTPC usually fixes the problem. I think the real problem is in my network setup and not the HTPC or the server. I'm just not that much of an expert on network troubleshooting to sort it out yet.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Right. I agree with 90% of what you're saying, MrU. My point when I say "awkward" includes that fact that it's just too much effort. The very fact that I have to care about driver conflicts makes it an unacceptable solution. You note that you're HTPC has been rock solid for a year now. That's good.

My S3 has been rock solid for... what? 6? When did it come out? I bought it then. Never had to care about obsolete hardware, defragging, installing updates, virus scanning, etc.

I think dealing with that stuff for a companion device is fine... dealing with it for my tuner is simply unacceptable.

The TiVo is an appliance, with all of the baggage that goes with that. I don't want a PC for my TV watching. I want an appliance.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I hear and understand what you're saying. Many people feel exactly as you do and don't want to worry about whether or not they'll be able to watch TV. I like to tinker and build things. I get a great feeling of satisfaction knowing that I can build a PC and make it do the things I want. Dealing with driver issues and whatnot is all part of the process. I don't mind it because I know I can fix whatever problems may arise and get them resolved quickly. I also know that I can set up an HTPC so I don't have to deal with the same problems others experience. My HTPCs are as steady as any Tivo I've ever owned.

The funny thing is, this is the exact same reason why I started using Tivos. I chose Tivo as my DVR because I could hack it and tweak it to do what I wanted. This was simply not possible with most other DVRs. Tivos have become progressively more difficult to hack, but it's not as important anymore because the features I used to add are now included in newer models (you can thank the hacking community for this, BTW).

HTPCs are a hobby. Tivos are a plug-and play-box. You can actually buy off-the-shelf HTPCs that could be considered an appliance just like Tivo. By comparison, a Mac could also be considered an appliance because there's little you can do to it to upgrade it. It's the main reason why I will never own a Mac, although I did build my own Hackintosh based on PC hardware.

The point being, if you're not prepared to put in the time and effort, stay away from HTPCs and enjoy paying Tivo for the privilege of recording TV. I prefer my independence and like to keep my money in my wallet. I'd rather spend 2K on a PC that does everything I want instead of $1000 for a Tivo with lifetime that only records TV. The other features Tivo includes are added fluff and don't perform nearly as well as they do on my HTPC, with but very few exceptions.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

What "driver issues" are you talking about? Once you set up a HTPC, it should work just like any other DVR in the market except it can operate a browser for internet video as well as burn crap onto media...and work with a "mouse interface". Depending on what you want, it can even be a better central storage device.

If you're going to be constantly buying new equipment to upgrade it to the latest and greatest and do all sorts of applications and Call of Duty, torrenting, etc. then that's a whole different story besides being a "HTPC".

All you have to do is turn off Windows Updates and don't install anything extraneous on the HTPC and you will have a smooth working DVR that can even save you electricity because it powers itself on and off. 

If you really want a "computer" in addition to a pretty guanrateed HTPC, this is your solution. Build an EXTRA computer next to the HTPC and plug it into HDMI2. 

P.S. a product like HD Home Run Prime that's mentioned above effectively turns any "Dell" in to an off the shelf HTPC. I mean, there's the step of installing the software and activating the cablecard, but that's just a little bit more complicated than any other off the shelf DVR. I'm not even sure you need a router. I mean, can you plug it directly into the compter? Anyone try?


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> What "driver issues" are you talking about?


With a properly configured HTPC, driver issues really aren't a concern. I do try and keep mine up to date for at least some of my hardware, but not for everything. If it's working fine I tend to leave it alone. The only drivers and firmware I mess with are my Intel HD audio and graphics and my Ceton InfiniTV 4. I never let Windows Update handle any driver updates so I always go to the manufacturer's website and get them manually.



> All you have to do is turn off Windows Updates and don't install anything extraneous on the HTPC and you will have a smooth working DVR that can even save you electricity because it powers itself on and off.


I leave mine on 24/7. Some people let theirs go into sleep mode, but I've heard too many bad stories to even want to try it. You will need some sort of antivirus protection if it's exposed to the internet and Microsoft Security Essentials is free and works quite well. The only caveat is that it nags at you if it doesn't have all of the latest critical updates. I let my HTPC download all updates, but I get to pick and choose which ones get installed. You can then hide whichever ones you don't want so Windows Update doesn't keep trying to install them.



> P.S. a product like HD Home Run Prime that's mentioned above effectively turns any "Dell" in to an off the shelf HTPC. I mean, there's the step of installing the software and activating the cablecard, but that's just a little bit more complicated than any other off the shelf DVR. I'm not even sure you need a router. I mean, can you plug it directly into the compter? Anyone try?


I don't think the HDHomeRun works without being connected to a router. I'm pretty sure it has to get its own IP address assigned to it in order to work properly.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

Grakthis said:


> Just for the record, Engadget did a review of this topic and came to the same basic conclusion.... HTPCs running WMC are simply too "awkward" to use, require too much maintenance and cost too much. "Awkward" is not the best word, but giving a full explanation would take a big list... suffice it to say, everything you do just feels slow and more difficult than it should be.


The single best review I've found is by Engadget and they found it to be basically a tie between the Tivo Premiere and an HTPC. If you've got another review link, I'd really like to read it.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/


> These are the best DVR options out there for a reason and both are very compelling. While Media Center excels in most areas that count, it is also the hardest to setup and support which means it isn't an option for the mainstream DVR user. Both are also not cheap, a TiVo Premiere will run you $700 with lifetime service and you'd have an even harder time getting a Windows 7 Media Center with CableCARD tuners for that price -- it is possible though. So there's no clear winner for everyone here, both are moving forward. TiVo has promised many updates for its Premiere and Microsoft just announced an embedded version of Media Center which might enable a hardware company to compete head to head with TiVo's set-top box model. Ultimately the DVR is a stop-gap technology until we reach a day when we can watch anything, anywhere, anytime we want, but until then we'll be using a Windows 7 Media Center PC and 360 as an Extender -- for now anyways.


Unfortunately it's from 2010. Both systems have progressed and I wish they'd do a new comparo.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Also check www.thegreenbutton.tv for the new home of the Green Button folks, tons of help for WMC there.


Thanks. Somehow I'd overlooked that site. I swear I'd been to a "green button" website that looked like it fizzled out about 18 months ago. Must have been some other site.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> My S3 Tivo is actually noisier than my HTPC. With carefully chosen components you can make a PC near dead silent. Check out silentpcreview.com for reviews of products to make your PC quieter.


Is the S3 noisy, or your HTPC really quiet? Our TivoHDs are effectively silent.

I've looked at Silent PC Review a bit, but haven't spent much time there. I'll have to give it another look now that I've got a better idea of a potential build in mind.

The whole reliability issue is an interesting one. My Tivos, three years on, have been solid. I wonder how an HTPC will do, particularly the hard drives. Consumer drives aren't especially high quality in recent years; I've had a couple USB drives fail.

But fortunately, in my case (unlike with another poster), losing a DVR is annoying, not devastating. I don't save TV shows: watch and delete. My wife would be upset at missing shows during the down time, but it's not like losing irreplaceable photos. Likewise, losing ripped movies would be annoying, but we'd have the original discs to re-rip.

(sorry for the multiple replies, but no multi-quote feature here...  )


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

donnoh said:


> "ameliorated"
> 
> I had to look up that word. I've never encountered that in normal conversation.


Your ignorance of that verbiage has been ameliorated.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I didn't read the whole thread, but if you're willing to WAIT, another compelling-sounding-but-currently-vaporware option is/will hopefully be the Ceton 6 tuner standalone DVR. It'll use "embedded WMC" (which I'd never heard of before), hopefully will be as solid as other standalone electronics.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> Is the S3 noisy, or your HTPC really quiet? Our TivoHDs are effectively silent.


I recently had to replace a failed drive in my S3. I grabbed a spare 750GB drive I had that had been previously used in my unRAID server. I forget whether it's a WD or Seagate drive, but it seeks constantly and chatters 24/7. My HTPC drive is quieter than the fans inside the case, and my fans are pretty quiet. I'm using a WD A/V drive for recording and an SSD for the OS.



> The whole reliability issue is an interesting one. My Tivos, three years on, have been solid. I wonder how an HTPC will do, particularly the hard drives. Consumer drives aren't especially high quality in recent years; I've had a couple USB drives fail.


Reliability of an HTPC vs. a Tivo should be pretty much the same for both platforms. Hard drives die. It's just a fact of life. There's no way to accurately predict how long a particular drive will last. Some are DOA right out of the box and others will sail along for five years or longer without skipping a beat.

DVRs probably put more stress on a hard drive than regular PC use because they're always buffering whatever channel the active tuner is tuned to at the time.



> (sorry for the multiple replies, but no multi-quote feature here...  )


Sure there is. Start a 2nd post with a quote and then cut and paste the quote into the original post using the edit feature.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> The single best review ...





ShoutingMan said:


> Thanks. Somehow I'd overlooked ...





ShoutingMan said:


> Is the S3 noisy...
> 
> (sorry for the multiple replies, but no multi-quote feature here...  )


Click the thing to the right of the quote button that looks like a piece of paper with quote marks and a + sign, then move down to the next one and do the same, and then hit the reply button on the left.

It might also work if you just click the quote button on the last of the comments you want to quote.


----------



## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't think the HDHomeRun works without being connected to a router. I'm pretty sure it has to get its own IP address assigned to it in order to work properly.


The HDHR will work connected directly to a PC but I'm not sure why you'd want to do that with a Dell (as other poster said), because you'd have to buy another NIC to get on the net with it. Much easier to use a router.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

It&#8217;s pretty simple. If you want to watch live TV and DVR, get TiVo. If you want those plus DVD/Blu Ray burner, full library internet On Demand video, upcoming gaming On Demand, internet browser, your choice of space, get HTPC.

The latter will cost you more and &#8220;might&#8221; be more tedious to set up depending on your approach&#8230;and even might be a tad more &#8220;noisy&#8221; depending on what you put in it (just get a Dell if you want to be safe&#8230;they thought about this already), but will grant you an all in one super-appliance. You can even buy a TV-like remote from basic replicas to touch-screen ones that are better than anything TiVo has to offer. I personally like the mouse as it seems to work on my couch and can "RW/FW" much better. And for typing, I rather put a keyboard on my lap than use those thumb texting things. But anything is better than using arrows to select letters.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> The HDHR will work connected directly to a PC but I'm not sure why you'd want to do that with a Dell (as other poster said), because you'd have to buy another NIC to get on the net with it. Much easier to use a router.


Ah...such old school. You can use a USB WiFi thingy. 

Anyways, I think Windows can be set up to DHCP or something to assign IP addresses if anything.


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> With a properly configured HTPC, driver issues really aren't a concern. I do try and keep mine up to date for at least some of my hardware, but not for everything. If it's working fine I tend to leave it alone. The only drivers and firmware I mess with are my Intel HD audio and graphics and my Ceton InfiniTV 4. I never let Windows Update handle any driver updates so I always go to the manufacturer's website and get them manually.
> 
> I leave mine on 24/7. Some people let theirs go into sleep mode, but I've heard too many bad stories to even want to try it. You will need some sort of antivirus protection if it's exposed to the internet and Microsoft Security Essentials is free and works quite well. The only caveat is that it nags at you if it doesn't have all of the latest critical updates. I let my HTPC download all updates, but I get to pick and choose which ones get installed. You can then hide whichever ones you don't want so Windows Update doesn't keep trying to install them.
> 
> I don't think the HDHomeRun works without being connected to a router. I'm pretty sure it has to get its own IP address assigned to it in order to work properly.


I can respond to a few things in this.
I have a Premiere and an original S3 (out of service) as well as a "gaming" PC that I have been running Win7MC on to serve 5 xboxen extenders since before the Ceton 4 tuner card came out... At one time using 2 HD Homerun DT OTA, but currently a Ceton card and one HD Homerun DT OTA.
The Win7MC is and has been the main DVR platform in use in my house since before the Ceton card came out... I think the summer after Premiere launched.
I have also seen Premiere MRS working and on MoCA.

I personally allow my Win7MC PC (which I actively use for non HTPC stuff) to update itself.
I sometimes specifically update some drivers.
I don't recall any specific problems related to driver updates, etc.

I allow my Win7MC PC to sleep and I allow it to aggressively spin down my TV/storage HDDs.
I had some glitches with the sleep stuff initially, but I got all the magic packet and BIOS settings stuff worked out.
I don't generally have problems with waking the Win7MC PC anymore from the xboxen.
I did have a problem for a bit when I had a switch go bad progressively worse and worse and cause tremendous amounts of bad packets.
Waking the Win7MC PC from sleep obviously causes a delay when an extender wakes it.... part of this is related to the waking of the Ceton tuners from what I understand.
Another part of delay seems to be related to building the Recorded library (I have I think 1200 items across 3 drives generally).
I don't see the delay in Recorded library on the PC, but I've obviously already had the PC awake before I launch MC on the PC... so Idunno... the occasional delay on launch doesn't bother me much really.

My Win7MC PC has 2 gigabit ethernet jacks.
I, at one time, thought I was brilliant and gave my HD Homeruns their own little network connected to one of the jacks.
Win7 did not like this... It called that network an unidentified network and played the stranger danger card.
I think I just ended up putting the HD Homeruns back on my normal home network after fiddling around with it a bit, but I'm not quite sure what I ended up doing now that I think about it.

Regarding the OP's question...
Wife, 2 TVs, Comcast, familiar with Tivo, liking the convenience of appliance...
I'd say go with a pair of Premieres. Bonus points on this if you have an iPad to use with the TiVos.
(I like MC, but I also have 4-5 TVs it feeds. TiVo is also better for techno challenged people like you somewhat said your wife preferred to be.)

With MRS now available for Premiere to Premiere streaming and other signs of actual progress in the software... TiVo is approaching a viable main DVR platform for me (if only I didn't have so many TVs to feed and didnt want such a strongly unified scheduling).

I'd probably recommend Elite + ?Preview? for the OP... if the TiVo extender was actually available at retail and maybe we knew more about TiVo's pricing structure for it.
As it stands now, I'd say Elite + standard Premiere if you can make that cost work for you.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

turbobozz said:


> ...
> I have a Premiere and an original S3 (out of service) ...


What happened to the S3?


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

unitron said:


> What happened to the S3?


Lifetime wasn't offered when I bought it, and TiVo refused to let me buy Lifetime at a reasonable price when it was offered... So I discontinued my subscription on it when I built my current Win7MC/gaming PC.
Also, a lightning strike killed the HDMI port... so I would have to use the YPrPb.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

turbobozz said:


> Lifetime wasn't offered when I bought it, and TiVo refused to let me buy Lifetime at a reasonable price when it was offered... So I discontinued my subscription on it when I built my current Win7MC/gaming PC.
> Also, a lightning strike killed the HDMI port... so I would have to use the YPrPb.


I bought a three year prepaid subscription when I initially activated my S3. It was offered as a special promotion for $199. When the three year period ended I was offered a chance to upgrade to lifetime for $99, which I immediately snatched up. I had a 2nd S3 that I was paying month-to-month with the MSD with a three year commitment. When that ran out I didn't get any sort of offer to upgrade to lifetime. I canceled the Tivo service on that one when it lapsed and sold it on ebay for next to nothing. The only reason I'm still using my original S3 with lifetime is because it's cheaper to pay for two cablecards than the monthly fee for an HD box from Verizon ($2.99 x 2 vs. $9.99).


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mattack said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but if you're willing to WAIT, another compelling-sounding-but-currently-vaporware option is/will hopefully be the Ceton 6 tuner standalone DVR.


I'm keeping an eye on the new Ceton DVR and extender. I don't know if I'll get to the upgrade before it comes out, but if it's close I'll consider it.



mr.unnatural said:


> Reliability of an HTPC vs. a Tivo should be pretty much the same for both platforms. Hard drives die. It's just a fact of life. There's no way to accurately predict how long a particular drive will last. Some are DOA right out of the box and others will sail along for five years or longer without skipping a beat.


I had it in my mind that Tivo used a "server" grade hard drive with better reliability than the typical consumer desktop drive.



unitron said:


> Click the thing to the right of the quote button that looks like a piece of paper with quote marks and a + sign, then move down to the next one and do the same, and then hit the reply button on the left.


...and knowing is half the battle! 



turbobozz said:


> With MRS now available for Premiere to Premiere streaming and other signs of actual progress in the software... TiVo is approaching a viable main DVR platform for me (if only I didn't have so many TVs to feed and didnt want such a strongly unified scheduling).
> 
> I'd probably recommend Elite + ?Preview? for the OP... if the TiVo extender was actually available at retail and maybe we knew more about TiVo's pricing structure for it.
> As it stands now, I'd say Elite + standard Premiere if you can make that cost work for you.


Thanks for the info. Last I looked at the Premiere discussion here at TCF, there was a lot of grumbling over lack of software updates.

I think I'll try to find a live demo of both Tivo Premiere and an HTPC.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

turbobozz said:


> I'd probably recommend Elite + ?Preview? for the OP... if the TiVo extender was actually available at retail and maybe we knew more about TiVo's pricing structure for it.
> As it stands now, I'd say Elite + standard Premiere if you can make that cost work for you.


Do we know for certain that there are definite plans to release the Preview for retail? It just seems like it would cut into Tivo's business model. I can see the benefit for providers, who are making their money on the cable service, but I wonder whether Tivo would want to lose out on the additional subscription money.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> What "driver issues" are you talking about?


I am talking about getting it to work reliably in the first place. I had nothing but issues with crashes, incompatibilities, recovering from power blinks and power loss, recovering from internet connections going down... I had a digital tuner that I'd have to unplug and replug in to get it to work after a power blink. WMC would periodically crash.

It's fine to like a WMC HTPC because you like to play with it and tweak it and customize it. I am absolutely like that with a LOT of technologies! I am a heavy first adopter, I despise apple and their entire business model and I'm a huge android user.

But the places where I simply DO NOT want to piddle are places like my DVR and my TV viewing.

A companion HTPC device is fine. But as a DVR replacement, it's not acceptable for me.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> The single best review I've found is by Engadget and they found it to be basically a tie between the Tivo Premiere and an HTPC. If you've got another review link, I'd really like to read it.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/
> 
> Unfortunately it's from 2010. Both systems have progressed and I wish they'd do a new comparo.


"These are the best DVR options out there for a reason and both are very compelling. *While Media Center excels in most areas that count, it is also the hardest to setup and support which means it isn't an option for the mainstream DVR user.*"

Bolded the relevant part.

Like I said, it's drawback is a total non-starter. It doesn't matter how great the upside is... the downside puts it out of the range of options I would even consider.


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I recently had to replace a failed drive in my S3. I grabbed a spare 750GB drive I had that had been previously used in my unRAID server. I forget whether it's a WD or Seagate drive, but it seeks constantly and chatters 24/7. My HTPC drive is quieter than the fans inside the case, and my fans are pretty quiet. I'm using a WD A/V drive for recording and an SSD for the OS.
> 
> Reliability of an HTPC vs. a Tivo should be pretty much the same for both platforms. Hard drives die. It's just a fact of life. There's no way to accurately predict how long a particular drive will last. Some are DOA right out of the box and others will sail along for five years or longer without skipping a beat.
> 
> ...


This may be getting a little more technical than you care for, but the file system of the disk will define longevity of the disk.

NTFS is very hard on a disk drive and windows does not optimize to reduce writes and reads to a drive unless you're running an SSD. Windows optimizes load times and speed.

The net result is that Windows will absolutely kill a drive faster than a TiVo will.


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

fyodor said:


> Do we know for certain that there are definite plans to release the Preview for retail? It just seems like it would cut into Tivo's business model. I can see the benefit for providers, who are making their money on the cable service, but I wonder whether Tivo would want to lose out on the additional subscription money.


No definite plans that I am aware of.
The Preview is out in the wild on some cable co systems though right now, so the hardware and software is functioning.
I would think it's mostly up to TiVo marketing to figure out if the Preview makes sense in their retail strategy.

I'd think it would be a near requirement to have extenders to fully compete at retail with the cable co's going forward though.
Many of the cable co's seem to be heading towards the centralized recording server + extender model.
(Verizon for example is working on a 6 tuner centralized DVR + extenders for release late this year. iirc)


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> I am talking about getting it to work reliably in the first place. I had nothing but issues with crashes, incompatibilities, recovering from power blinks and power loss, recovering from internet connections going down... I had a digital tuner that I'd have to unplug and replug in to get it to work after a power blink. WMC would periodically crash.
> 
> It's fine to like a WMC HTPC because you like to play with it and tweak it and customize it. I am absolutely like that with a LOT of technologies! I am a heavy first adopter, I despise apple and their entire business model and I'm a huge android user.
> 
> ...


I fully expected to have setup issues when I started my Win7MC experiment with HD Homerun DT OTA's.
I was stunned when nearly everything "just worked" (to borrow a phrase from Apple).
It sounds like you had a lot of very odd behaviors in your setup... I don't think I've ever had Win7MC crash.

I very much agree that people looking for a DVR appliance should generally not be looking at Win7MC, but if you tinker anyways... There's little reason you can't get Win7MC to a working point and then just leave it alone.

Granted, I have lone Premiere running as a backup TV source on one TV...
But the only reason I am running any TiVo's at all right now is because a friend gave me a Premiere w/ lifetime.
I think the potential sting of losing all TV is just so minor to me now with things like streaming VOD, HBO Go, Hulu, etc... Many shows tend to be available through web portals like that eventually if there's a temporary DVR failure.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I guess if you guys look at it that way, even if you do a minimal effort setup like HD Home Run networked tuners, WMC is still a "computerized interface". And if your wife like can't program a VCR...then WMC might be a bit frustrating to use.


----------



## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

If this is a thread to cast a vote for one or the other when it is a DVR that is needed, I sure vote for the TiVo Premiere. Ease of setup, reliable software, and aesthetics all favor TiVo for me, not even close.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> I am talking about getting it to work reliably in the first place. I had nothing but issues with crashes, incompatibilities, recovering from power blinks and power loss, recovering from internet connections going down... I had a digital tuner that I'd have to unplug and replug in to get it to work after a power blink. WMC would periodically crash.
> 
> It's fine to like a WMC HTPC because you like to play with it and tweak it and customize it. I am absolutely like that with a LOT of technologies! I am a heavy first adopter, I despise apple and their entire business model and I'm a huge android user.
> 
> ...


Sounds mostly like you had hardware issues. The types of problems you're describing tend to be related to bad hardware choices with sketchy drivers. Without knowing what you had in your setup we'd have no way of knowing whether you built your HTPC using incompatibale components. I'd be curious to know whether you were using brand name components or something you picked up at a computer swap meet that came in a white box. I've built numerous HTPCs over the years and only ran into one major problem that caused me headaches and it was all related to a faulty motherboard. Today's hardware is more HTPC friendly and should result in an extremely stable setup, especially if you follow any of the dozens of configurations tried and tested by other HTPC users.



Grakthis said:


> "These are the best DVR options out there for a reason and both are very compelling. *While Media Center excels in most areas that count, it is also the hardest to setup and support which means it isn't an option for the mainstream DVR user.*"
> 
> Bolded the relevant part.
> 
> Like I said, it's drawback is a total non-starter. It doesn't matter how great the upside is... the downside puts it out of the range of options I would even consider.


The relevant part is that while it may be harder to set up, it is not at all difficult. Just because something has a slightly higher degree of difficulty doesn't make it hard to do. Anyone that's ever built their own PC and installed software can built a stable HTPC.



turbobozz said:


> I fully expected to have setup issues when I started my Win7MC experiment with HD Homerun DT OTA's.
> I was stunned when nearly everything "just worked" (to borrow a phrase from Apple).
> It sounds like you had a lot of very odd behaviors in your setup... I don't think I've ever had Win7MC crash.


And there it is.



rasmasyean said:


> Well, I guess if you guys look at it that way, even if you do a minimal effort setup like HD Home Run networked tuners, WMC is still a "computerized interface". And if your wife like can't program a VCR...then WMC might be a bit frustrating to use.


Actually, using WMC is way easier than programming a VCR. If your wife can use a Tivo then she can use the WMC interface. OTOH, this is exactly why I am the exclusive HTPC user in my household. The wife yells at me because she can't get a picture on the TV because she accidentally selected the wrong input. I buy her cheap remotes because she has a tendency of bouncing them off the wall when she gets frustrated. I'm getting pretty good at patching drywall. I let her use the Tivo because it's more of a dumbed-down unit that she can understand. It's not that she can't operate the HTPC or an extender, it's just that she chooses not to.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

How much is there really to say about a HTPC vs a TiVo or for that matter any other DVR out there? 

Basically everything that matters in picking a DVR is fairly individual so what is important to me may be irrelevant to the next person. 

What I would say to anyone in the HTPC vs DVR appliance (TiVo) debate is to figure out what matters to you. 

Assuming you are a geeky computer hobbyist, you can make pretty much everything work, so your selection will come down to other things (like time, money, other family members etc.)

If you are not a geeky computer hobbyist you had better get a DVR appliance. 

Thanks,


----------



## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

> The relevant part is that while it may be harder to set up, it is not at all difficult. Just because something has a slightly higher degree of difficulty doesn't make it hard to do. *Anyone that's ever built their own PC* and installed software can built a stable HTPC.


Right. You just excluded 99% of Americans. And of the remaining 1%, 75% of them aren't interested in building an HTPC because they are too busy tweaking their desktop gaming PC and/or are over 30 now and spending all of their spare time with their kids.

edit:



> Sounds mostly like you had hardware issues. The types of problems you're describing tend to be related to bad hardware choices with sketchy drivers. Without knowing what you had in your setup we'd have no way of knowing whether you built your HTPC using incompatibale components. I'd be curious to know whether you were using brand name components or something you picked up at a computer swap meet that came in a white box. I've built numerous HTPCs over the years and only ran into one major problem that caused me headaches and it was all related to a faulty motherboard. Today's hardware is more HTPC friendly and should result in an extremely stable setup, especially if you follow any of the dozens of configurations tried and tested by other HTPC users.


I made it from a spare PC with plenty of power and a digital tuner I picked up cheap. See, I am sure you are going to tell me how I should have bought these specific parts and to read this guide and follow these steps and gotten stuff designed to be an HTPC...

But that's exactly the point. People DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT. I did not want to do that. Period. It's a tiny tiny tiny sliver of a tiny % of people that want to do that.

That all sounds brutally tedious to me now.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> Right. You just excluded 99% of Americans. And of the remaining 1%, 75% of them aren't interested in building an HTPC because they are too busy tweaking their desktop gaming PC and/or are over 30 now and spending all of their spare time with their kids.


I guess you missed the part where I said HTPCs were niche products geared towards hobbyists. I'm not trying to sell the rest of the population on HTPCs because I know it's a waste of time. I'm simply addressing the topic of this thread.



> I made it from a spare PC with plenty of power and a digital tuner I picked up cheap. See, I am sure you are going to tell me how I should have bought these specific parts and to read this guide and follow these steps and gotten stuff designed to be an HTPC...
> 
> But that's exactly the point. People DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT. I did not want to do that. Period. It's a tiny tiny tiny sliver of a tiny % of people that want to do that.
> 
> That all sounds brutally tedious to me now.


A little planning goes a long way to a successful result. You can't take a junk car and expect it to perform as well as a new one. You're basing your evaluation on an experience using hardware that probably wasn't suited for use as an HTPC. When it failed you discerned that all HTPCs must be crap. Now that's what I call a scientific approach. Many people like to take the cheap route to building an HTPC and try doing it with outdated hardware that simply isn't up to the task. It's no wonder you had so many issues. For the record, HTPCs require very little processing power for use as a DVR. CPU usage during recording and playback is almost negligible.

Aside from tweaking the PC for extra features like Blu-Ray playback, setting up an HTPC amounts to putting the parts in a case and hooking up the wiring and installing a copy of Windows 7 and whatever drivers came with the motherboard and peripherals. From there you simply install your tuners and the associated drivers and then run Media Center setup, which is no more difficult than running guided setup on a Tivo. If you consider that brutally tedious then you really should stick with your Tivo.

FYI, there are actually lots of people that want to do just that. There are probably lots of others that have not yet discovered that they want to do that because they are completely unaware that their Windows 7 PC has this capability built in. I know a lot of younger folks that live for this kind of stuff. I got into it while my kids were still living at home and I don't ever recall that it took me away from spending any quality time with them. I spend far more time watching TV and movies or fixing things around the house than I ever do having to deal with issues pertaining to my HTPC. I've probably spent as much time tinkering with Tivos over the years as I have with HTPCs. I just became a grandparent for the first time and I plan on spending lots of quality time with my grandson. My HTPC is quite stable so I'm pretty sure it's not going to take away from that quality time.



atmuscarella said:


> How much is there really to say about a HTPC vs a TiVo or for that matter any other DVR out there?
> 
> Basically everything that matters in picking a DVR is fairly individual so what is important to me may be irrelevant to the next person.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I've been saying all along. If Tivos are what float your boat and you don't want to be bothered with an HTPC then go for it. Just stop coming up with lame excuses why HTPCs are such a pain to deal with because nothing could be further from the truth.

On a parting note, is anyone here aware that you can build a 3D capable HTPC that will record and play 3D broadcasts as well as support 3D Blu-Ray playback? I realize 3D is a bit of a boondoggle for many, but have you tried to buy a new TV these days that doesn't have 3D capability? Virtually all larger models are being marketed with both 3D capability and SmartTV features.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

First of all it doesn't take a "geek" to build a computer these days. A geek would be better at solving potential problems faster...but most normal ppl can build a computer with basic reading comp on the internet. It's just like how "smartphone users" tried to classify themselves into geekdom. Get over yourselves, you don't deserve the title.  REAL geeks who did these sort of true techie things back in the day either made 6-digit salaries, worked for NASA, founded Microsoft and friends...or were idealists who made nothing and taught everyone how to steal media! 

Besides that fact...off the shelf computers with minimal "modding" required to do HTPC things come with 24/7 Indian-dude phone-support in case you run into problems that they didn't think of when they QA'ed your model. You can always get a "faulty product" by chance of course, but that's with any "appliance" too. But even as this is harder to debug, hungry Indians are there to serve you.

As for the wife thing, some people are just older and used to doing things a certain way. If you give them a "pointer controlled 2D point-click-right-click-scroll-wheel-click" TV, they might just freak and get pissed off because they just want to press buttons with one shape each. That's your call wheter you want to push the WAF scale.


----------



## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Snappy interface. That is probably the biggest positive of WMC for me. And ease of expanding tuner count or storage space. Also I feel that repairing my WMC pc would be easier than fixing a Tivo. 

WMC has potential to double duty as many other things. Mine has a 2500k cpu in it and is plenty fast. And only $750ish. I did get a few deals on parts around Black Friday. But you could also use it as a surfing machine if you want.

But building a WMC does take some computer know how. Do you know how to build a pc or know how to install Windows? If so then you can do it. Once I build a regular Win7 pc and installed Windows it only took 5 minutes to call the cable company and setup the Ceton Tuner. 

I think once it is up and running that it is hands-off plug and play. But it does have more potential for the user to screw it up. And probably on average is going to have more problems because of the different hardware configurations.

Anyway snappier means a lot. You can cycle through shows quicker. Read descriptions faster. Without snappiness it makes those things a chore on the Premiere or at least not as enjoyable. I often switched my Premiere completely to SD to make it a bit faster. 

The WMC interface is different. It does many things better. The guide is way better for example. I find WMC more colorful and like the way it shows off its shows better, but it takes a bit of getting used to coming from Tivo just because Tivo is what you are used to. But Tivo is better at a few things as well. I find WMC's menu organization a little convoluted at times as in I am not sure exactly where to go to change something. And prioritizing shows in case of a conflict isn't that difficult, but the method of doing so is a bit tedious. 

All in all very happy with my WMC. I wasn't happy with my Premiere. It felt unfinished and clunky in comparison.

Oh a few other notes. Wireless N isn't fast enough to stream shows to a 360. But that could be particular to the location of my router and 360. I will be hard wiring my 360 is an adjacent room to my router to test out the 360 interface. 

Also my WMC wakes up from sleep with 100% reliability and wakes up very quickly. Really pleased with that. Might use less electricity because of that. I also put in a gold rated (highly efficient) Power Supply. Not sure how efficient a Tivo PS is.

Last wife loves WMC. Has no problem using it even when I just had a couch mouse as a controller for awhile. She is fairly technophobic too.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> How much is there really to say about a HTPC vs a TiVo or for that matter any other DVR out there?


This forum suggests there's quite a bit to be said about Tivo per se and also compared to other DVRs 

Unfortunately, it's a topic that would be helped a lot by live demos, or even decent demo videos. But all we've got is text, so we do what we can in trying to compare stuff.

At the beginning I was mostly looking for huge deal breakers: 7MC is a painful UI with awful lag. Tivo Premiere hasn't updated software in 18 months and is still a laggy, low-def mess.

But instead it seems both systems have matured a great deal and provide excellent experiences to the user. The HTPC takes more work upfront but can do a lot more overall. Tivo is plug-and-play, probably cheaper overall, but doesn't a holistic solution to the modern living room


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ShoutingMan said:


> This forum suggests there's quite a bit to be said about Tivo per se and also compared to other DVRs


I really just look at the fact there are a only few major things that are relevant to everyone - after that it is all personal. Reading what other people's personal preferences are is useful in that it outlines what someone should be thinking about when making there list of what they want, but what the poster preferences actually are, are fairly useless. Even when someone is talking about something that is important to you, say like the speed of the UI, what they consider slow, acceptable, or fast may have nothing to do with what you consider to be slow, acceptable, or fast, so their opinion is actually irrelevant and you have to experience the UI for yourself to know how it feels to you.

As another example you seem to put high value on having a "one box" solution. For me I value redundancy and place a high value on having multiple boxes. Both of our post will reflect that bias. If someone else is reading our posts all that is of value to them is the reminder that they should determine if having a one box solution or having redundancy with multiple boxes has any value to them. Our actually opinions and bias are irrelevant to them.


----------



## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> This forum suggests there's quite a bit to be said about Tivo per se and also compared to other DVRs
> 
> Unfortunately, it's a topic that would be helped a lot by live demos, or even decent demo videos. But all we've got is text, so we do what we can in trying to compare stuff.
> 
> ...


I think most reasonable people would really say that it is down to what works for you and your situation right now between Win7MC and TiVo.

Many of posters have their locations listed here (and I think on AVSforum as well).
Maybe you could bug them for live trials.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> At the beginning I was mostly looking for huge deal breakers: 7MC is a painful UI with awful lag.


There's zero lag when using Media Center directly. It only occurs when accessing the UI via an extender. The remote comand has to be transmitted over the network to the main PC before it can be executed. The lag is usually quite minimal, but there are times when it can get annoying if the network is running slower than usual.



turbobozz said:


> Many of posters have their locations listed here (and I think on AVSforum as well).
> Maybe you could bug them for live trials.


I live in Ellicott City, MD. I'd have no problem putting my money where my mouth is if someone local wants to send me a PM. I've got to warn you, though. Everyone that's seen my HTPC in action has left with the bug to build their own. The Verizon techs that came out to set up my original S3 Tivo were drooling when they saw my HTPC with OTA recording and playback and Blu-Ray streaming from my server. The techs that came out to install my first cablecard tuner from Ceton were equally impressed.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> There's zero lag when using Media Center directly. It only occurs when accessing the UI via an extender. The remote comand has to be transmitted over the network to the main PC before it can be executed. The lag is usually quite minimal, but there are times when it can get annoying if the network is running slower than usual.
> 
> I live in Ellicott City, MD. I'd have no problem putting my money where my mouth is if someone local wants to send me a PM. I've got to warn you, though. Everyone that's seen my HTPC in action has left with the bug to build their own. The Verizon techs that came out to set up my original S3 Tivo were drooling when they saw my HTPC with OTA recording and playback and Blu-Ray streaming from my server. The techs that came out to install my first cablecard tuner from Ceton were equally impressed.


maybe you can give us some youtube clips.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> maybe you can give us some youtube clips.


I've personally never posted anything on YouTube. I'll bet if you do a search on YouTube you'll find quite a few video clips on setting up and using WMC.


----------



## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

I am not really sure what a lot of people use their different devices for but for me I want to be able to time shift everything I watch and then save certain programs for watching over and over again. I stumbled across a feature of the new Sony DVD player that I just bought. It can stream anything on my computer to the TV over HDMI. With Tivo files I have to unwrap them first. So now I am off loading everything to my computer that right now has 1.5 Tg of free space.
I have a TivoHD that is hard wired to the network as is the Sony DVD player so I get very good speeds from both. Since I have one of Comcasts triple play packages it comes with a Comcast DVR. I also needed an HD box in another room and it was cheaper to rent a DVR from them, then to get just a straight HD cable box. DVR was $9.95 a month while straight cable box was $15.95 a month. So I have two Comcast DVR's and the TivoHD so I have pleanty of tuners for recording shows.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> There's zero lag when using Media Center directly. It only occurs when accessing the UI via an extender. The remote comand has to be transmitted over the network to the main PC before it can be executed. The lag is usually quite minimal, but there are times when it can get annoying if the network is running slower than usual.
> 
> I live in Ellicott City, MD. I'd have no problem putting my money where my mouth is if someone local wants to send me a PM. I've got to warn you, though.


I'm (newly moved to) Ashburn, VA. Google maps says you're about an hour away (ignoring traffic). A field trip might be possible


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> I really just look at the fact there are a only few major things that are relevant to everyone - after that it is all personal.


Sure  But it's an interesting conversation, and brings out some useful tidbits for me. And it has told me something I honestly didn't know: I could get an Tivo Premiere and it wouldn't suck. A year ago, my impression was the Tivo Premiere was basically dead in the water, and I was done with Tivo when I upgraded from our TivoHDs.

But after reading this discussion, my wife was telling me about me about setting up our TivoHDs in our new place with new cable lineup, I very nearly went out got a Tivo Premiere today just to help her out with the four tuners. It's still tempting, to have an immediate improvement to our experience. And then doodle on an HTPC over the next few months.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

SNJpage1 said:


> I am not really sure what a lot of people use their different devices for but for me I want to be able to time shift everything I watch and then save certain programs for watching over and over again. I stumbled across a feature of the new Sony DVD player that I just bought. It can stream anything on my computer to the TV over HDMI. With Tivo files I have to unwrap them first. So now I am off loading everything to my computer that right now has 1.5 Tg of free space.
> I have a TivoHD that is hard wired to the network as is the Sony DVD player so I get very good speeds from both. Since I have one of Comcasts triple play packages it comes with a Comcast DVR. I also needed an HD box in another room and it was cheaper to rent a DVR from them, then to get just a straight HD cable box. DVR was $9.95 a month while straight cable box was $15.95 a month. So I have two Comcast DVR's and the TivoHD so I have pleanty of tuners for recording shows.


Good idea of giving specific examples to add to the convo.

I'm relatively new to "HTPCs" but I've been contemplating it for a while since RCN got TiVo's for like $22 a month. I'd figure if I build an HTPC (~$500) I can save on some fees over time ($1.5 cablecard) and get other convieniences as well. I basically use my HTPC to record stuff. To DVDize premium channels, I use a DVDR (no HD of course) connected to the "bedroom" cablebox. I copy and rename the VRO file to MPG from the DVD-RAM if I want an unencrypted file.

My HTPC has a blu-ray burner too so I can use it to burn data from any networked computer too as a bonus. I was going to use this as a cheap data-backup facility.

I also got the HTPC because I wanted to do some on-demand gaming (OnLive) on a big screen. If I want to play like SkyRim or something in the future, I'll just put in a video card for $200 or whatever that will go down in price soon.

Other than like Hulu, Youtube and IMDB referencing and such, I only do basic short-duration "computer/internet stuff" on the HTPC though. I find it's not very comfortable to do normal computing on a couch.

That's about it really. I don't really treat it like a normal computer and only installed relevant HTPC softwares on it so far. Even to edit videos and author DVD's it's better on my dual-screen desktop. The good thing is that you can pretty much work with remote files directly on the HTPC as the bandwidth bottleneck when doing these things is much slower than the max network speed available.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

I played with the demo Premiere at Best Buy last night. I left ambivalent. The Tivo pause/play/rewind features are as awesome as ever. I love the 6-second hop-back Tivo has after a fast-forward. (I fear losing that one awesome detail on a 7MC system). And the Premiere's 30-second jump is cool. And going up from the TivoHD's 20 hours of storage to the 45 hours on the Premiere would be really great. A pair of Premieres, with its' 5x faster transfer speed would also be good. And I liked the live video available when navigating the menu.

But the interaction at the menu level, the guide, the HD interface...it felt sluggish, unimproved over TivoHD and perhaps worse. It wasn't painfully slow, but it crossed that threshold to where I noticed the brief hesitation with every menu selection. The HD interface isn't finished: one level deep and the old SD menu returns. The guide interface is unchanged from the Tivo HD, and no more responsive. It's a good design, but I had the impression the Premiere had some new awesome way to find, explore, and select TV shows. I never saw it.

And the $200 price jump for the XL, with 150 hrs storage, is steep.

The whole affair felt half-baked. Not lousy, but not impressive.

I'm increasingly interested in a media center system. As a luxury item, I want a single box to watch TV or movies on. As I toggle between Tivo to the Blu-ray to watch some Prison Break on DVD, I am annoyed by devices turning on and off, and waiting (and waiting and waiting) for the Blu-ray to come up, and then swapping discs when I've seen the four episodes, and then a power and input switcharoo to get back to TV.


Still, it is tempting in the short term to upgrade one Tivo: if I could buy a Premiere for $99 and keep my $11/mo sub, it would probably be a good buy. Presumably, I could swap the cable card from the current HD to the new Premiere without a cable-co service call. I should contact Tivo about it pricing.


----------



## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ShoutingMan said:


> The HD interface isn't finished: one level deep and the old SD menu returns. The guide interface is unchanged from the Tivo HD, and no more responsive. It's a good design, but I had the impression the Premiere had some new awesome way to find, explore, and select TV shows. I never saw it.


Sounds like the unit you were demoing doesn't have the latest update. In the latest update the guide is fully HD. Most have also said that they find it more responsive. There are still some SD screens in the interface but another update is expected this spring.

Here is the grid guide in the latest update. More screen shots and details here.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

To my surprise 7MC has the same automatic hop back after fast forward. The Prev and Next keys take you back 7 seconds or forward 29 seconds respectively, and you can change them to anything you want in the registry.

I wasn't fond of the remote because some the buttons are too small, but once I got it programmed into my universal remote the viewing experience and skipping through commercials feels identical to my TiVos.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ggieseke said:


> To my surprise 7MC has the same automatic hop back after fast forward. The Prev and Next keys take you back 7 seconds or forward 29 seconds respectively, and you can change them to anything you want in the registry.
> 
> I wasn't fond of the remote because some the buttons are too small, but once I got it programmed into my universal remote the viewing experience and skipping through commercials feels identical to my TiVos.


Which remote are you using? I've got my Harmony One programmed for WMC and it works beautifully. I knew about the Prev key function but I never tried the Next key.

I'm running ShowAnalyzer on my HTPC and it maps all of the commercials for me. All I need to do is press the right arrow and it skips completely past the commercial and resumes playback at the next show segment. I can also configure it to automatically skip past the commercial for me. As with any commercial skipping app, it's not perfect so there are instances where it maps the commercial breaks incorrectly and I have to resort to fast forwarding through the commercial manually. It's accurate about 80% of the time, which isn't too bad. I'll have to check out the Next button the next time I run into an incorrectly mapped commercial.

FWIW, the menus in WMC are all in HD.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

nrc said:


> Here is the grid guide in the latest update. More screen shots and details here.


Ah. That was not on the demo unit at the local BestBuy.

Good to know there's a hop-back feature for 7MC.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Which remote are you using? I've got my Harmony One programmed for WMC and it works beautifully. I knew about the Prev key function but I never tried the Next key.
> 
> I'm running ShowAnalyzer on my HTPC and it maps all of the commercials for me. All I need to do is press the right arrow and it skips completely past the commercial and resumes playback at the next show segment. I can also configure it to automatically skip past the commercial for me. As with any commercial skipping app, it's not perfect so there are instances where it maps the commercial breaks incorrectly and I have to resort to fast forwarding through the commercial manually. It's accurate about 80% of the time, which isn't too bad. I'll have to check out the Next button the next time I run into an incorrectly mapped commercial.
> 
> FWIW, the menus in WMC are all in HD.


My universal remote is a homebrew concoction of my own software and a USB dongle that I built, running on a laptop. It's loosely based on the old Philips Pronto remotes. I loaded Synergy on the new HTPC and use the keyboard and mouse on the laptop for both computers, which worked out nicely.

I have been trying to get ShowAnalyzer for days, but my software key has never come in and they're not answering my emails or Contact Us submittals.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Sorry to hear you're having trouble contacting Dragon Global. I think I got my key within 24 hours after purchasing it. I just noticed this on their website:

"Keys sent to aol.com, yahoo.com, msn.com, and hotmail.com addresses often don't make it. If you have another email address, I recommend you use it instead."

Perhaps you are using one of the aforementioned e-mail providers?


----------



## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> First of all it doesn't take a "geek" to build a computer these days. A geek would be better at solving potential problems faster...


Enjoy your continued future bafflement as Apple continues it's takeover...


----------



## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> Still, it is tempting in the short term to upgrade one Tivo: if I could buy a Premiere for $99 and keep my $11/mo sub, it would probably be a good buy. Presumably, I could swap the cable card from the current HD to the new Premiere without a cable-co service call. I should contact Tivo about it pricing.


Sigh - I was in your same boat. After listening to (and trolling through) multiple HTPC sites and threads, it became quite obvious that home theater PCs are still very much in "science project" territory.

While there are still many little things that drive me batty about Tivo, it does excel at *reliably recording TV shows*. I've yet to find any other DVR or solution that is anywhere close in that regard.

So, I recently upgraded to a Premiere with Lifetime for one of my boxes, and I'm about to swap out my HD for Premiere and shut off my S3.

As was pointed out, the recent update made the HD menus much more palatable - but you can still turn 'em off if you really want to.

Sigh - despite several issues (stuff like group scheduling between multiple DVRs, better handling of conflicts and utilization of the tuners more efficiently, combined Now Playing list among all DVRs in the house, etc.) unfortunately Tivo is still the best solution for me - simply because no one else, including WMC, is anywhere near as reliable as Tivo.

And it looks like Moxie tanked finally. That sucks. There were many things about Moxie I liked and I almost switched to 'em at one point.

Ultimately I can't wait for Netflix, Amazon and others to mature - I really don't want a DVR - I just want to watch what I want, when I want, with minimal (or no) commercials and I'm not particularly wedded to one solution over another when you get down to it.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

DocNo said:


> Sigh - I was in your same boat. After listening to (and trolling through) multiple HTPC sites and threads, it became quite obvious that home theater PCs are still very much in "science project" territory.
> 
> While there are still many little things that drive me batty about Tivo, it does excel at *reliably recording TV shows*. I've yet to find any other DVR or solution that is anywhere close in that regard.
> 
> ...


Be sure to get the $99 lifetime on any older units you're giving up on.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DocNo said:


> While there are still many little things that drive me batty about Tivo, it does excel at *reliably recording TV shows*. I've yet to find any other DVR or solution that is anywhere close in that regard.


Well then you're in luck because I'm going to tell you about one now. My Windows Media Center PC is every bit as reliable as any Tivo I've owned in any format (standalone, standard def; standalone, Hi-Def; DirecTV, standard def; DirecTV Hi-Def) for recording TV shows. The only mitigating factor that's ever kept my HTPC from recording has been signal quality, and even then it will attempt to record a program as long as it can detect a signal of sufficient strength.

If a program ever fails to record because of a weak signal, WMC automatically reschedules the recording for the next available showing and will continue to reschedule it until it either succeeds or runs out of scheduled showings for that program. I think Tivo just gives up if it fails to record a program for whatever reason. I've had more recordings lost with a Tivo than a Win 7 HTPC.

I love how people thing you need to be a rocket scientist to build and operate a Media Center PC. If you can build a desktop PC then you can easily build a Media Center PC. If you've installed Windows 7 you're already 95% of the way there. The issues you read about in HTPC forums are no different than the issues you read about in Tivo forums. They affect only a small percentage of HTPC and/or Tivo owners. As with any public forum, you hear mostly complaints and rarely the kudos for a product.

There are simple guides available that take you through the various setup chores step by step. It's no big mystery. Today's hardware and software make it virtually painless to set up a Media Center PC.


----------



## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

unitron said:


> Be sure to get the $99 lifetime on any older units you're giving up on.


Can I get $99 lifetime on my TivoHDs? Do I need to call Tivo?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ShoutingMan said:


> Can I get $99 lifetime on my TivoHDs? Do I need to call Tivo?


Go read the $99 lifetime thread, but basically you call and threaten to cancel and they make one last attempt to get some more of your money.

There does seem to be some Customer Service Representative roulette involved.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Sorry to hear you're having trouble contacting Dragon Global. I think I got my key within 24 hours after purchasing it. I just noticed this on their website:
> 
> "Keys sent to aol.com, yahoo.com, msn.com, and hotmail.com addresses often don't make it. If you have another email address, I recommend you use it instead."
> 
> Perhaps you are using one of the aforementioned e-mail providers?


It's my AT&T address and I have also sent them two other private domain addresses since it never shows up there. Nothing so far. 

I saw that notice too, but it's silly since their primary payment method is PayPal and they don't give you any way to change the address. I will give it a few more days before disputing the charge through PayPal.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Check into Comskip instead of ShowAnalyzer. I just read that ShowAnalyzer is no longer being supported, which is probably why you're getting no response.

http://www.hack7mc.com/2009/04/beginners-fine-tuning-tweaking-comskip.html


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

I already have VRD and Ad-Detective is pretty good, but I will look into Comskip too.


----------



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Whats the link to the Synergy software? I can't seem to hit it.

What other software is out there that can act as remote controls and perhaps map your keyboard for WMC?


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

EventGhost

http://www.eventghost.org/

With an IR receiver and any remote, you can map buttons on the remote to control any app on a PC or function within WMC. If you've got a universal remote that has lots of buttons you can pick any device you want and map the buttons as you see fit.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

rasmasyean said:


> Whats the link to the Synergy software? I can't seem to hit it.
> 
> What other software is out there that can act as remote controls and perhaps map your keyboard for WMC?


http://synergy-foss.org/

Get the 1.4.x version. Here's a tutorial on setting it up.

http://www.dusanvuckovic.com/tutori...omputers-with-one-keyboard-and-mouse-synergy/

This lists the keyboard shortcuts built into WMC.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Windows-Media-Center-keyboard-shortcuts


----------

