# New HR20 DVR will be FREE....if you are a 'select' customer



## newsposter

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html

excerpt:

Owners of the TiVo HD DVR have been forced to give up many of the added features of TiVo Series 2 units. The HR20, in contrast, promises to deliver many of the special extras of today's updated DVRs. The device features two DirecTV inputs, two ATSC tuners, one satellite in, an HDMI input, a component input, a composite input, and a digital/coaxial out. Interestingly, the HR20 also includes not one, but two Ethernet ports - we asked why, and a rep on hand said we would have to wait and see. It also boasts two USB 2.0 ports for future connectivity. The box enables users to record two sources from either DirecTV or ATSC - even at the same time.

That's all good and fine, but when does the HR20 finally come out and how much is it going to cost? DirecTV would not give us a firm date, but it did state that the unit will definitely be available in Q2 2006. "Really Q2, we swear," a spokesperson told us. Meanwhile, we're able to report some fantastic news for early adopters who picked up a DirecTV TiVo HD DVR. DirecTV reps confirmed to us today that the HR20 will be made available "completely free of charge" to select HD TiVo owners as soon as the former becomes available. By select, the company means owners who live in the PST or MT areas of the United States, as these regions will be the first to make the switch to MPEG-4 broadcasts. HD TiVo owners who live in other parts of the US can either wait a little longer for the same deal or purchase the HR20 for only $99 smackers. Brand new customers will pay approximately $200 for the device and will get a significant mail-in rebate, according to DirecTV.

------------

first off, um...wasn't Detroit first...and Philly has been up for a few months and is NOT in the PST or MT zones. And NY is up now also. I think those 2 cities combine to have about 9 million people right? Where do they get these spokespeople? How rude to exclude us East coasters. Another attempt at alienation I guess. And I don't understand what they are saying to 'wait a little longer' for free or purchase it for 99 bucks? I'm assuming they mean if you wait for their official rollout it's free but I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind paying 99 to get it sooner, as they are inferring. What a setup without any basis I can see.

Do you read it like that? Or am I missing something? And how in the heck can they sell this for 200 new when the tivo was 1K?

A positive is it appears we all get to keep our Hdtivos!


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## ebonovic

Untill I see it in a Press Release... I am going to take it with a "spoon full" of salt.

As there are more few things in the IGN posting that just don't make sense... (especial the "areas" that will get it for free... PST and MT will get it for free, because they are the only ones with LIL HD? (as you pointed out)

Last time I check.. Chicago was in either of those TimeZones...


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## A J Ricaud

newsposter said:


> http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html
> 
> excerpt:
> 
> The device features two DirecTV inputs, two ATSC tuners, one satellite in, an HDMI input, a component input, a composite input, and a digital/coaxial out.


???


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## newsposter

A J Ricaud said:


> ???


basically, you can record 2 things in any combo...directv, analog, digital.


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## ebonovic

I think he was getting at the "INPUTS" vs them being "OUTPUTS" of the unit.

(other sites have been pointing that, and the fact that IGN often makes typos like that.


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## jcricket

My guess is that if you have an HR10-250, they'll want to keep you as a customer, and you'll get a free 5-LNB dish and one HR20, when HD Locals are available for your DMA. If the HR20 works reasonably well, and I can get it free, I'm going for it. I'm tired of the OTA problems I've had and am not interested in plunking down $500-800 for a Series 3 Tivo.

If you don't have an HR10-250, they'll probably want you to pay for the 5-LNB dish and HR20, and how much will depend on how long you've been a customer and what equipment you already own (non-DVR HD D* receivers will probably net you a price break).


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## newsposter

jcricket said:


> My guess is that if you have an HR10-250, they'll want to keep you as a customer, and you'll get a free 5-LNB dish and one HR20, when HD Locals are available for your DMA. If the HR20 works reasonably well, and I can get it free, I'm going for it. I'm tired of the OTA problems I've had and am not interested in plunking down $500-800 for a Series 3 Tivo.
> 
> If you don't have an HR10-250, they'll probably want you to pay for the 5-LNB dish and HR20, and how much will depend on how long you've been a customer and what equipment you already own (non-DVR HD D* receivers will probably net you a price break).


How do you feel about not getting WB UPN PBS on satellite? See, I can't live without wb upn for the fact that i'm getting 'incomplete' service from dtv.


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## ebonovic

My "Guess" is that is a contractual issue thing... 
They probably somehow got an agreement with the 4 big parent networks, and got it to trickle down to the affiliates.

And they haven't gotten there with WB and UPN...

Normally WB and UPN are on smaller affiliates in towns (when compared to other cities)
(Certainly the case here in Chicago for UPN, not so for WB since they are WGN )

There certainly has to be a reason though, I don't think DirecTV would just arbitrarily say... JUST THOSE 4... no one watches the others.... Probably is... Unless we get onto the inside, we will never know.


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## TheBigDogs

Well, as a left coaster, I'm delighted, assuming it happens. 

That said, I really have to wonder if Ruppert has slipped into early stage Alzheimers. This has got to be one of the dumbest announcements ever. 

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.


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## sp1dey

newsposter said:


> How do you feel about not getting WB UPN PBS on satellite? See, I can't live without wb upn for the fact that i'm getting 'incomplete' service from dtv.


That's a sticking point for me... I'm able to get the major 4 plus WB solid OTA but not UPN or PBS. Don't really care about UPN, but PSB kind of hurts. If things go down like this, as in, free upgrade I'm all in for a try. I'll just keep my antenna up for WB and hope for the best. If I'm not satisifed with D at that point and the new HD DVR doesn't live up to my expectations, I'm happy that Tivo will be releasing an alternative. I still feel like the sky is the limit for what D can do once all the sats are off the ground. Currently, Comcast does offer a better HD lineup in my area and the Series 3 Tivo is appealing, but if D eventually delivers it should easily surpass Comcast.

Bottom line, D has me for now and through the upgrade, if they fail to deliver on their promises after that... guess things will be Comcastic!


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## MichaelK

ebonovic said:


> Untill I see it in a Press Release... I am going to take it with a "spoon full" of salt.
> 
> As there are more few things in the IGN posting that just don't make sense... (especial the "areas" that will get it for free... PST and MT will get it for free, because they are the only ones with LIL HD? (as you pointed out)
> 
> Last time I check.. Chicago was in either of those TimeZones...


i think the story is full of typos and misunderstandings. But i thin kthe western half of hte country first makes sense.

Perhaps D* plans to get everyone west off MPEg2 first so they can dump the LA MPEG2 feeds that everyone in LA and the O&O and DNS markets in the west get. That would get them half the bandwidth from NYU/LA feeds in half the time rather then all the bandwidth in twice the time if they attempt the whole country at once.


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## ebonovic

TheBigDogs said:


> That said, I really have to wonder if Ruppert has slipped into early stage Alzheimers. This has got to be one of the dumbest announcements ever.


But this wasn't a "DirecTV" announcement.

This was an IGN writer, reporting what he was told or overheard or what ever.

If this was an actually Press Relese... It would have a whole lot of legal mumbo jumbo, plus a paragraph telling us how long DirecTV has been in business


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## ebonovic

MichaelK said:


> i think the story is full of typos and misunderstandings. But i thin kthe western half of hte country first makes sense.
> 
> Perhaps D* plans to get everyone west off MPEg2 first so they can dump the LA MPEG2 feeds that everyone in LA and the O&O and DNS markets in the west get. That would get them half the bandwidth from NYU/LA feeds in half the time rather then all the bandwidth in twice the time if they attempt the whole country at once.


But then you exclude the #1 and #3 DMAs (New York and Chicago) from that process.... At least then offer me a $99 credit, when you do offer it free to Chicago.


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## Lee L

ebonovic said:


> But this wasn't a "DirecTV" announcement.
> 
> This was an IGN writer, reporting what he was told or overheard or what ever.
> 
> If this was an actually Press Relese... It would have a whole lot of legal mumbo jumbo, plus a paragraph telling us how long DirecTV has been in business


Don't forget the part about how cool Rupert is and that we should all bow and kiss his ring.


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## DLiquid

I don't want to be an early adopter of the HR20 if it means giving up my HR10-250, since at launch the HR20 is more than likely going to be inferior and more bug-laden than the HR10-250. So what do you think, with this free to select customers deal would they ask us to *trade in* our HR10-250 for an HR20, or are they going to give us an HR20 and let us keep our HR10-250? If the answer is trade in, why would I trade in a DVR that I paid $850 for, for one that is so cheap? Why not just buy the HR20 for $99 or $200 (or whatever their offer is to existing non HR10-250 customers) and keep the HR10-250. The only reason I can think of is if the HR10-250 is going to become obsolete soon, but with the speed at which D* seems to move I can't imagine that happening any time soon. Even if the HR10-250 were to stop getting D*'s HD channels, I still pick up all the networks via ATSC so the unit could still be useful to me if it had a better interface than the HR20. Even as an SD TiVo the thing has a huge hard drive.

It would be nice to be able to keep the HR10-250 and also give the HR20 a shot. This would help me in deciding whether to jump ship to Comcast in order to stay with the TiVo software.


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## newsposter

I've not been around here long,but i can't fathom a trade in thing. Too much logistical nightmares.


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## ChrisW6ATV

newsposter said:


> how in the heck can they sell this for 200 new when the tivo was 1K?


This one is not hard to answer. Unlike when the HR10-250 was released, any new HD box "purchased" will require a two-year programming commitment, to one of DirecTV's full packages. That is something like $1200 in programming cost at the absolute minimum, _without_ any premium movie channels or the HD package. And remember, the two-year timer restarts if you have to exchange the box under warranty.

Also, unlike the HR10 and all older DirecTV HD receivers, this one will include the "shut-off" ability so you probably will not be able to use it for OTA-only if you cancel your DirecTV service even after the two years are up.


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## RightHere

Why are people saying that DTV is providing "incomplete" service? Reading the specs, I see OTA tuners. So if you have the current HD DVR, it's the same for some channels, better for others. In other words, it sounds more complete than what they currently offer.


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## AbMagFab

Their LIL HD offering is incomplete. The only reason to get MPEG-4 is for LIL. The only reason to get LIL is because you can't get the complete local HD offering OTA.

So what does DirecTV do? Give us an incomplete LIL HD offering. This has zero impact on people who get everything OTA, since it's useless to them anyway. But their target market, who is looking for a complete LIL HD package, gets screwed.

DirecTV misses the boat again.

It sure seems like, with a tiny bit of work, the Series 3 Tivo could be made to support DirecTV. It also supports MPEG-4 playback, so it's got everything it needs.

But screw 'em (DirecTV). Give me a Series 3 + FIOS TV, and I'm super happy.


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## dswallow

AbMagFab said:


> Their LIL HD offering is incomplete. The only reason to get MPEG-4 is for LIL. The only reason to get LIL is because you can't get the complete local HD offering OTA.
> 
> So what does DirecTV do? Give us an incomplete LIL HD offering. This has zero impact on people who get everything OTA, since it's useless to them anyway. But their target market, who is looking for a complete LIL HD package, gets screwed.
> 
> DirecTV misses the boat again.
> 
> It sure seems like, with a tiny bit of work, the Series 3 Tivo could be made to support DirecTV. It also supports MPEG-4 playback, so it's got everything it needs.
> 
> But screw 'em (DirecTV). Give me a Series 3 + FIOS TV, and I'm super happy.


I rather find myself agreeing with you. I just don't understand why DirecTV thinks half-assed LIL HD in markets is going to help attract customers.

What they're doing is giving me reason to consider that I really can do without both DirecTV and Cable once I have a dual tuner HD TiVo supporting ATSC OTA. I most certainly can cut down my subscription to the bare minimum just to keep access to the handful of cable channels I need in addition to OTA. Money isn't really the issue as much as I'm beginning to simply feel the need to not let DirecTV get my money anymore, with some of the boneheaded moves they've been making of late. It just seems that I'm in this holding pattern perpetually wiating yet one more year for things they should've and could've had a year or two earlier.


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## ebonovic

As I don't have my H20 setup yet... I can't check.

Are the LIL-HD stations... just the ".1" channels.... like 5.1 or are they giving us all the multicasts as well?

What about Dish? Is their HD-LIL giving all the multicasts as well?

I know our local Cable-Co's isn't offering all the multicasts. They have a couple.. .but not all of them.


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## dswallow

ebonovic said:


> As I don't have my H20 setup yet... I can't check.
> 
> Are the LIL-HD stations... just the ".1" channels.... like 5.1 or are they giving us all the multicasts as well?
> 
> What about Dish? Is their HD-LIL giving all the multicasts as well?
> 
> I know our local Cable-Co's isn't offering all the multicasts. They have a couple.. .but not all of them.


I am pretty sure DirecTV was only offering the main subchannel.

Comcast around here I noticed offered the ABC and NBC subchannels offering weather as well as 2 extra PBS subchannels, so they're probably carrying all subchannels (FOX and UPN each have a subchannel of the other in SD, so no reason to carry that). But then, they also are missing HD for WB and UPN. So they're really not much better than DirecTV. Though they do have Cinemax and Starz in HD, as well as INHD and INHD2. I'll even give Comcast bonus points for not wasting space with ESPN2-HD (yet).


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## generalpatton71

This is just a really messy situation now. D* seems to be really screwing the you know what here. I have had my h10-250 for about a year and love it. I however love the idea of having a Hd Tivo box that tivo controls(the series3). I'm just not happy with the pace D* is moving at with HD. My cable company SEEMS to be moving a little faster in regards to HD. I figure this time next year things will be allot more clear however. Chances are i'll end up with a D* and cable Tv solution. Here is basically what I want. 

D*- The H20 needs not to suck like the r15 lol. I want 30 sec skip. I want the series pass to work right. I want then to dramatically improve the UI for finding shows you want to record. For god sakes just let me put in the channel number and not spell the dam channel! 

I'd also like to have about 20 additional channels of HD! Thats right [email protected]#ING 20 channels of HD. They also out to have a new package for HD customers where they can get all the HD channels and about 40 sd channels for 50$ or something. I know it will never happened but this is what would make me happy lol! 

To get me to go to cable again I need Mediacom to offer all my locals in HD. I want the to offer HBO in HD. I have to have my Deadwood in HD lol. They already offer showtime,and Starz in HD. They already offer all the Hd channels D* does plus INHD1 and 2. I'd like to see them increase this by offering basically all the Hd channels that are out there lol. 

In summary I want everything and I want it for a 1$. I'm just sick and tired of everybody draging there feet when it comes to HD. More HDTVs were sold in 2005 then all the sets of previous years combined. HDTVs also outsold SDTV for the first time. Right now is the time for HDTV to take off!! At least I have my HDTV Tivo and my big 4228 antenna lol.


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## KungFuCow

newsposter said:


> It also boasts two USB 2.0 ports for future connectivity.


Well, well.. nothing to worry about! They sure know how to use those USB ports!


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## newsposter

dswallow said:


> I am pretty sure DirecTV was only offering the main subchannel.
> 
> Comcast around here I noticed offered the ABC and NBC subchannels offering weather as well as 2 extra PBS subchannels, so they're probably carrying all subchannels (FOX and UPN each have a subchannel of the other in SD, so no reason to carry that). But then, they also are missing HD for WB and UPN. So they're really not much better than DirecTV. Though they do have Cinemax and Starz in HD, as well as INHD and INHD2. I'll even give Comcast bonus points for not wasting space with ESPN2-HD (yet).


wow then my little cable co may be pretty darn good afterall. for 11 bucks they have
603 CBS - HD
604 WB - HD
605 Fox - HD
606 ABC - HD
610 NBC - HD
612 PBS - HD
614 UPN - HD
615 Discovery Theater
616 HDNet
617 HDNet Movies
618 Universal HD
619 Comcast Sports HD
620 ESPN HD
621 TNT HD
622 NFL Network HD
623 Wealth TV HD
624 Outdoor Channel HD

plus when you get the premiums they do HBO HD Cinemax HD Showtime HD The Movie Channel HD Starz HDTV

maybe if I can't get my final 2 channels ota I'll really have to consider this.


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## AbMagFab

newsposter said:


> wow then my little cable co may be pretty darn good afterall. for 11 bucks they have
> 603 CBS - HD
> 604 WB - HD
> 605 Fox - HD
> 606 ABC - HD
> 610 NBC - HD
> 612 PBS - HD
> 614 UPN - HD
> 615 Discovery Theater
> 616 HDNet
> 617 HDNet Movies
> 618 Universal HD
> 619 Comcast Sports HD
> 620 ESPN HD
> 621 TNT HD
> 622 NFL Network HD
> 623 Wealth TV HD
> 624 Outdoor Channel HD
> 
> plus when you get the premiums they do HBO HD Cinemax HD Showtime HD The Movie Channel HD Starz HDTV
> 
> maybe if I can't get my final 2 channels ota I'll really have to consider this.


If my cable company offered that, I'd be switching tomorrow. Or absolutely no later than the release of the Series 3 SA HD Tivo.


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## ebonovic

News... Your list just proves... HD via CableCo.. .highly depends on the area you are in.

Comcast in my town (Major SouthBurb of chicago), doesn't have NFL HD, Wealth HD, Universal HD, Outdoor HD... The have "Indemand" instead of HDNet


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## newsposter

ebonovic said:


> News... Your list just proves... HD via CableCo.. .highly depends on the area you are in.
> 
> Comcast in my town (Major SouthBurb of chicago), doesn't have NFL HD, Wealth HD, Universal HD, Outdoor HD... The have "Indemand" instead of HDNet


Thing is, I dont even know what those channels carry since I dont get then and really dont look at the guide. I do know that one carries "the equalizer' and that's reason enough for me 

And my co. is "the one that invented cable" so I would hope they cared enough to send their very best. It's fear of the moxi box keeping me at DTV


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## newsposter

AbMagFab said:


> If my cable company offered that, I'd be switching tomorrow. Or absolutely no later than the release of the Series 3 SA HD Tivo.


I know nothing about SA. So when they come out, would i just be able to get the cable card ,the SA, then have dual HD recording using my usualy tivo interface? I thought you can't use the cable guide with cable cards?


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## jcricket

You can't use the "Interactive Cable Guide" to surf channel listings with a cable card, but that won't matter if you have a standalone HD cablecard Tivo. The Tivo will have it's own channel guide (downloaded from Tivo or whomever) that you use to pick programs to record/watch.

The only things that Series 1 CableCards can't do that I see mattering is purchase PPV and "OnDemand" programming from Cable Cos that offer it. I know the SA HD Tivo includes a "Series 2" CableCard slot, but it's not clear to me if that will be compatible with the eventual (2007+) CableCards that have all the features missing in Series 1.

Anyone know?


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## dswallow

Here's the full HD/HD-related Comcast lineup for my area:

202	ESPN HD
205	Discovery HD Theater
206	INHD
207	INHD2
215	& 300 HBO HDTV
219	& 319 Cinemax HDTV
223	& 339 Showtime HDTV
227	& 369 STARZ! HDTV
231	WABC-DT News
232	WNBC-DT (NBC)
233	WCBS-DT (CBS-HD)
234	WNYW-DT (FOX WIDESCREEN)
240	WNET-DT (PBS)
241	WNET-DT Kids Thirteen**
242	WNET-DT Thirteen World**
245	WABC-DT News Plus**
248	WNBC-DT Weather Plus**

It's not clear if any PPV or On Demand material is available in HD.


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## newsposter

jcricket said:


> You can't use the "Interactive Cable Guide" to surf channel listings with a cable card, but that won't matter if you have a standalone HD cablecard Tivo. The Tivo will have it's own channel guide (downloaded from Tivo or whomever) that you use to pick programs to record/watch.


we dont have on demand so that's no biggie.

so it looks like you have to keep the phone line plugged in though to get the guide data. I'm not used to that lol. But if the new tivo is the same /better than the old one, and can do 2 HD signals at once, it merits serious consideration once out. Of course there's the pricing thing to consider too though. Hope they really aren't 5-800 like i read. I'd need 2 for conflicts.


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## SpankyInChicago

newsposter said:


> How do you feel about not getting WB UPN PBS on satellite? See, I can't live without wb upn for the fact that i'm getting 'incomplete' service from dtv.


No PBS is a deal breaker for me.

Unless some serious changes come from DirecTV, my 10 year relationship with them will probably end if / when the dual CableCard HD Tivo comes on the market.


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## AbMagFab

dswallow said:


> Here's the full HD/HD-related Comcast lineup for my area:
> 
> 202	ESPN HD
> 205	Discovery HD Theater
> 206	INHD
> 207	INHD2
> 215	& 300 HBO HDTV
> 219	& 319 Cinemax HDTV
> 223	& 339 Showtime HDTV
> 227	& 369 STARZ! HDTV
> 231	WABC-DT News
> 232	WNBC-DT (NBC)
> 233	WCBS-DT (CBS-HD)
> 234	WNYW-DT (FOX WIDESCREEN)
> 240	WNET-DT (PBS)
> 241	WNET-DT Kids Thirteen**
> 242	WNET-DT Thirteen World**
> 245	WABC-DT News Plus**
> 248	WNBC-DT Weather Plus**
> 
> It's not clear if any PPV or On Demand material is available in HD.


Pretty lame. Looks like my Comcast line up, too. Other than Starz and Max, no better than DirecTV (for us happy OTA HD folks).


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## SpankyInChicago

ebonovic said:


> News... Your list just proves... HD via CableCo.. .highly depends on the area you are in.
> 
> Comcast in my town (Major SouthBurb of chicago), doesn't have NFL HD, Wealth HD, Universal HD, Outdoor HD... The have "Indemand" instead of HDNet


Tinley Park is a major suburb, now? You Tinley Parkers are so uppity. I remember when nobody went to that town except to see Farm Aid!


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## tfederov

At least you guys will get ABC HD if you upgrade to the H20. Dallas area folks are screwed because the local ABC station isn't O&O. No ABC HD in the D* local HD package. Since diplexers are useless with the 5 LNB upgrade I'll be short one cable. I'm aware I could run another cable for OTA but I was pushing it running two cables to every spot I have.


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## Skankboy

SpankyInChicago said:


> Tinley Park is a major suburb, now? You Tinley Parkers are so uppity.


That's exactly what I was thinking.


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## Lee L

dswallow said:


> I rather find myself agreeing with you. I just don't understand why DirecTV thinks half-assed LIL HD in markets is going to help attract customers.


Well, you probably remember both Dish and Direct both tried to do the same thing for regular LIL a few years back. Only after the FCC made them carry all teh stations did they do it. Somehow, they seem to think that people who want locals only really want the big 3.


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## newsposter

dish has this

Also included in the ViP series is the ViP622(TM) DVR, the world's first MPEG4 multi-room high definition and digital video recorder satellite TV receiver with the ability to view independent programs -- one in high definition and one in standard definition programming -- on two televisions at once. No other pay-TV company offers this innovative combination. It features a massive hard drive with a recording capacity of up to 25 hours of high-definition and up to 180 hours of standard-definition content.


wonder if dtv or tivo can duplicate it. Would be very popular!


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## stevel

I think that's what the "server" product is supposed to offer.


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## cheer

SpankyInChicago said:


> Tinley Park is a major suburb, now? You Tinley Parkers are so uppity. I remember when nobody went to that town except to see Farm Aid!


I had a very similar thought when I read that.  "Bah! Tinley Park is a suburb of St. Louis!" ('Course, since I live in Gurnee IL, a suburb of Milwaukee, I should probably hush.)

Back on topic, I keep having similar cable-esque thoughts. I'm not interested in D*'s HD LiLs because of the crap selection, not to mention bailing on my Tivos. And I'm not very interested in D*'s national HD package -- very little I would watch there, except perhaps ESPN HD and occasionally the movies. OTA I get everything pretty much except for WBBM, but getting WBBM (which I watch a lot) is going to be a major project, antenna-wise. I know I could probably just get the locals-only package from Comcast for HD, but then again no Tivo.

And every time I run the numbers for Comcast, I see my bill taking a major spike. Sigh.

Bring on AT&T's U-Vision, I guess.  Wonder if U-Vision will support cablecard...that'd freakin' rock. Mebbe I'll try and figure out who the product mgr is and suggest it.


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## JimSpence

Here's what TWC in The Greater Binghamton, NY offers on their HD tier.

700	WBGH HD (NBC)
703	WIVT HD (ABC)
704	WSKG HD (PBS)
705	Discovery HD Theatre
706	TNT HD	
710	HBO HD *	
711	Showtime HD *
715	INHD	
716	INHD2	
717	HD Net	
718	HDNET Movies	
719	ESPN-HD	
750	WBNG Digital (CBS) non-HD
* requires extra package.

Pretty lame doesn't even come close to what this is.

If TWC here offered what newsposter has, I'd seriously consider going back to cable.


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## newsposter

JimSpence said:


> Here's what TWC in The Greater Binghamton, NY offers on their HD tier.
> 
> Pretty lame doesn't even come close to what this is.
> 
> If TWC here offered what newsposter has, I'd seriously consider going back to cable.


Well if I had a chance to try a moxi box first handed, I may be back already  - and i'd have to be sure the locals are just as clear on cable vs OTA- But some people have told me i'd be sorry compared to tivo. Also someone is coming to play with my OTA this week if the weather holds out and as long as I can get all those channels OTA, i'm even considering upgrading my hard drives in the hdtivo.


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## cadams66

I saw the HR20 at CES at the DirecTV booth. They were not showing the user interface so either (i) it still has bugs or (ii) there is some surprise they don't want to show yet. The people I talked to confirmed that the old HD Tivos would be swapped for free. He told me when they would start shipping - it was either Feb or May but now I don't remember because I picked up so many dates at the show. I think it was Feb and the Toshiba HD-DVD is May. Anyway, the guy I was speaking to was in a position to have good insight and he swore on a stack of bibles it was going to ship in the timeframe he gave me. I find the schedule suspicious since they were not showing the software or the final case design at the show. If they were going to ship in Feb they would already have built up inventory by now. Who knows - maybe there is a good explanation. Q2 is still plausible. 

I read some people posting in this thread that DirecTV was clueless and would not win new customers offering partial local channel lineups. I think some are missing the point. The motivation for this box is to switch to H.264 so they can offer more channels on the same satellite space. The easy switch is the HD channels because (i) they are the biggest bandwidth hogs, and (ii) there are not that many subscribers so they can afford to swap their boxes for free. Eventually they will want to switch all SD channels to H.264 but they will wait several years so that many of their subscribers will have bought a new box on their own nickle and it won't cost as much to swap out the remainder.

Keep your HR10 if you want - but before long it won't work with any of the DirecTV HD channels. Maybe the ATSC tuner will still work.

The 30 second skip ahead will not be offered. Too many issues with their suppliers. Obviously it is possible so maybe some hack site will offer a patch. I was told of a bunch of new features they would have, but other news at CES overtook that memory space in my brain.

The main reason I want this unit is I want to have multiple boxes that talk to each other so I can move content around my house. The HR20 has an Ethernet port. I don't think the first software release will support networking but an upgrade will come with time. I don't see that Tivo is motivated to invest in new software for the HR10 if they are all going to be swapped out.


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## jcricket

I'm planning to swap my HR10 for an HR20 + 5-LNB dish when MPG4 Locals come my way (Seattle). OTA is too unreliable for me (my wife, really), and I only get the same channels OTA that are being initially offered via Satellite. IOW, I can wait for WB, UPN and PBS to be available over the satellite in HD. I'll probably keep my R10 as a secondary receive for now, until they have another "$100 rebate" promotion or something else comes along. Having both will make an interesting comparison wrt to the UI differences.

From what I've seen/heard about the R15, the HR20 will be "just fine" as a dual-tuner HD-DVR. In some respects it will probably be better than the HR10 (actually supported by DirecTV). All the other features offered on standalone Tivos (e.g. MRV, HMO, etc.) will be gravy if/when we get them on the HR20, but I'm not holding my breath. 

In fact, if Apple announces a Mac Mini with a remote and Front Row software, I'd probably purchase one to replace my DVD Player - gaining HMO-like features (e.g. music, pictures, downloaded video) + web surfing capabilities along the way. I already have two boxes (HR10 and DVD player), so until someone builds the full-featured-single-box solution, two boxes is fine by me.


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## newsposter

cadams66 said:


> I read some people posting in this thread that DirecTV was clueless and would not win new customers offering partial local channel lineups. I think some are missing the point. The motivation for this box is to switch to H.264 so they can offer more channels on the same satellite space. The easy switch is the HD channels because (i) they are the biggest bandwidth hogs, and (ii) there are not that many subscribers so they can afford to swap their boxes for free. Eventually they will want to switch all SD channels to H.264 but they will wait several years so that many of their subscribers will have bought a new box on their own nickle and it won't cost as much to swap out the remainder.
> 
> Keep your HR10 if you want - but before long it won't work with any of the DirecTV HD channels. Maybe the ATSC tuner will still work.


You do realize every single market would have to be converted to mpeg4 for them to turn off mpeg2 right? I think their own press release said something like 36 markets this year. I think there are a LOT more markets that need to be brought on board before they kill mpeg2. So the feeling is it will be years until the hdtivo is dead. Plus dont forget, there are people like me with T60's and even newer units that will all become 'dead' as wel if there's no more mpeg2. that's a lot of boxes to switch out. no way that's near future.

And since you specifically mentioned new customers, I do believe that if someone has had cable and received all their HD local channels then found out that they only get 4/7 of them on satellite and would be responsible for maintaining their own equipment etc, that DTV would be a hard sell. Just my 2 cents.


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## Budget_HT

newsposter said:


> You do realize every single market would have to be converted to mpeg4 for them to turn off mpeg2 right? I think their own press release said something like 36 markets this year. I think there are a LOT more markets that need to be brought on board before they kill mpeg2. So the feeling is it will be years until the hdtivo is dead. Plus dont forget, there are people like me with T60's and even newer units that will all become 'dead' as wel if there's no more mpeg2. that's a lot of boxes to switch out. no way that's near future.
> 
> And since you specifically mentioned new customers, I do believe that if someone has had cable and received all their HD local channels then found out that they only get 4/7 of them on satellite and would be responsible for maintaining their own equipment etc, that DTV would be a hard sell. Just my 2 cents.


Last I heard, DirecTV MPEG-4 transition plans apply only to HDTV. All of the SD channels will remain MPEG-2. Apparently the economics don't support the bandwidth saved versus cost of transition for SD TV. So, S1 (like your T60) and S2 DirecTiVos could be around for a long time.

OTOH, what happens if lots of channels migrate from SDTV to HDTV over time (i.e., dropping the SD version)? This may encourage more migration of customers from SD only to combo SD and HD, thus moving to MPEG-4-capable receivers.

Lots of speculation here and few facts to work with, and lots of forces at play in the marketplace. Anyone's predictions today will likely need to change as the marketplace changes rapidly in the next few years for HD and digital SDTV.

See, it only took me three paragraphs to make statements that will likely be wrong or out of date not too long after I click on 'Submit.'


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## AbMagFab

Budget_HT said:


> Last I heard, DirecTV MPEG-4 transition plans apply only to HDTV. All of the SD channels will remain MPEG-2. Apparently the economics don't support the bandwidth saved versus cost of transition for SD TV. So, S1 (like your T60) and S2 DirecTiVos could be around for a long time.
> 
> OTOH, what happens if lots of channels migrate from SDTV to HDTV over time (i.e., dropping the SD version)? This may encourage more migration of customers from SD only to combo SD and HD, thus moving to MPEG-4-capable receivers.
> 
> Lots of speculation here and few facts to work with, and lots of forces at play in the marketplace. Anyone's predictions today will likely need to change as the marketplace changes rapidly in the next few years for HD and digital SDTV.
> 
> See, it only took me three paragraphs to make statements that will likely be wrong or out of date not too long after I click on 'Submit.'


As much as I'd love that to be true, stop and think for a second.

Of the 100+ channels in SD today, how many new hours of programming are being produced (versus repeats of old programming)? In order for a channel to be HD, it needs a lot of new content (or old film to be HD'd, like HDnet does). There just isn't enough new content to support many new HD channels.

The major networks - yes. Movie channels - mostly. About a dozen cable nets - yes/maybe. The rest, not really. So it's unlikely we'll see this "150 national HD channels" with actual HD content. It's going to take years, maybe decades, before the bulk of the channels are HD (the time to transition to HD recording for all new content, the time to convert old content that can be converted, and the time to just have enough content).

Most reality shows aren't HD yet. No game shows are HD yet. We've got a long way to go.


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## dswallow

AbMagFab said:


> No game shows are HD yet. We've got a long way to go.


Ooh the possibilities! Imagine a 9x9 version of Hollywood squares! or, should that be 16x9?


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## bidger

AbMagFab said:


> No game shows are HD yet. We've got a long way to go.


I saw a thread in the AVS "High Definition Programming" forum that both "Jeopardy" and "Wheel of Fortune" will be available in HD next Season. Didn't read it because I don't watch game shows, but I did notice the thread.


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## STL

cadams66 said:


> I saw the HR20 at CES at the DirecTV booth.
> ...
> The 30 second skip ahead will not be offered. Too many issues with their suppliers.


What a load of crap!! LOL Maybe content providers but NOT suppliers!


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## AbMagFab

bidger said:


> I saw a thread in the AVS "High Definition Programming" forum that both "Jeopardy" and "Wheel of Fortune" will be available in HD next Season. Didn't read it because I don't watch game shows, but I did notice the thread.


Okay, that's 2. Next year. I meant more about syndicated content/independent producers as a whole. They are probably the bulk of totals hours on TV any given day, but the major networks produce the bulk of new content in any given year.

So it'll be ages before we see many more national HD channels, beyond:
- Movie channels
- Major networks
- 5-10 cable nets (e.g. Discovery, ESPN)

That will leave, oh, 130+ channels for DirecTV to magically find. If they start trying to push VOOM-like crap down, and still cry bandwidth constraints, I'm outta here even sooner.

Oh please, Tivo Series 3 - Save me!


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## newsposter

But why does it matter if "all" the programming isn't HD, but rather they still allocate the bandwidth to it? As far as I know, most HD network stuff is on 3 hours a day plus maybe bit more if you add sports on weekends. I watch the OTA feed of SD shows on those networks because the pic is so much better than DTV. So if the new HD feeds on the satellite are as good, then why not put the other versions of HD channels on satellite as well so we at least get decent SD programming quality.


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## disco

Two cable companies in the closest city (I'm about 20 miles away, so they don't reach me..):

Charter:
770 HDNET
771 HDNETMV
773 ESPNHD
776 MAXHD
777 HBOHD
778 SHOWHD
781 KAREDT (NBC)
782 KTCADT (PBS)
784 WCCODT (CBS)
785 KSTPDT (ABC)
789 KMSPDT(FOX)

En-Tel:
none

The small town I live near (I'm actually about 2 miles outside, on an old farm site), has "project" cable (provided low cost by the township). They have only 37 CHANNELS, and, of course, no HD. And they don't reach me, either.

DirecTV/DishNetwork are my only choices.


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## sjberra

Charter Cable Offerings

» Local ABC, CBS, NBC 

» Local Fox in widescreen high resolution 

» Discovery HD 

» ESPN HD 

» HBO HD (you must be an HBO subscriber) 

» HDNet & HDNet Movies 

» Showtime HD (you must be a Showtime subscriber) 


*Channel availability varies by location.


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## MichaelK

dswallow said:


> Ooh the possibilities! Imagine a 9x9 version of Hollywood squares! or, should that be 16x9?


Actually i think SOny just said Jepoardy and wheel of fortune wiull be HD for the fall season.

Didn't see anythign about hollywood swaures though


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## MichaelK

ChrisW6ATV said:


> This one is not hard to answer. Unlike when the HR10-250 was released, any new HD box "purchased" will require a two-year programming commitment, to one of DirecTV's full packages. That is something like $1200 in programming cost at the absolute minimum, _without_ any premium movie channels or the HD package. And remember, the two-year timer restarts if you have to exchange the box under warranty.
> 
> Also, unlike the HR10 and all older DirecTV HD receivers, this one will include the "shut-off" ability so you probably will not be able to use it for OTA-only if you cancel your DirecTV service even after the two years are up.


FYI- the HR10-250 WILL also DIE if it is not actively subbed to Directv. Maybe not totally dead as in no tuning but it can NOT record anyting except a single 30 minute buffer without the authourization from the Directv satellite stream. For a box that cost around 5 times what a non recording version did/does I think that's pretty close to dead.


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## richierich

I am going to wait at least a year after the HR20 comes out to get it if I do decide to get it then. It will be riddled with BUGS that DIRECTV will not even admit or tell us that they are working on it, so I will let you guys VENT with FRUSTRATION as they play their corporate game until I know that it works as advertised. In the meanwhile, I will enjoy both of my HR10-250s with 600 gigs of hd each and with HD LOCALS (uncompressed) via OTA!!!


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## dswallow

MichaelK said:


> FYI- the HR10-250 WILL also DIE if it is not actively subbed to Directv. Maybe not totally dead as in no tuning but it can NOT record anyting except a single 30 minute buffer without the authourization from the Directv satellite stream. For a box that cost around 5 times what a non recording version did/does I think that's pretty close to dead.


Not really... the non-DVR HD DirecTV receiver I had cost a bit over $600 when I bought it. Without a DirecTV it's usable as an ATSC tuner.

HR10-250's cost less than that now, even less considering service discounts often applied. That's just the price you pay.


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## bidger

dswallow said:


> Not really... the non-DVR HD DirecTV receiver I had cost a bit over $600 when I bought it. Without a DirecTV it's usable as an ATSC tuner.


Does it still get guide data for the ATSC channels?


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## dswallow

bidger said:


> Does it still get guide data for the ATSC channels?


I suppose for fun I could hook it up to a satellite dish to see if that happens. Though I think those older receivers did present PSIP data that is broadcast with the ATSC signal.


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## JimSpence

Wouldn't the HR10-250 still be able to record OTA and DirecTV SD after MPEG2 HD is turned off?


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## jcricket

JimSpence said:


> Wouldn't the HR10-250 still be able to record OTA and DirecTV SD after MPEG2 HD is turned off?


Yes. That certainly extends the "usable life" of the HR10, although I'm not sure how many HD customers will be happy if there are a bunch of HD channels they can't get. I suspect they will keep the current crop of MPEG2 HD channels online (not many, I know) for quite some time. They'll duplicate any national HD channels on the MPEG4 satellites and only add new ones on those new MPEG4 satellites.

I can't imagine many HD subscribers being happy knowing that there are even 5 HD channels they *can't* receive. Hell of an incentive (stick) to switch.


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## newsposter

MichaelK said:


> FYI- the HR10-250 WILL also DIE if it is not actively subbed to Directv. Maybe not totally dead as in no tuning but it can NOT record anyting except a single 30 minute buffer without the authourization from the Directv satellite stream. For a box that cost around 5 times what a non recording version did/does I think that's pretty close to dead.


if, for 5 bucks a month I get nothing but an OTA HD tivo, i dont think thats too bad if the HD dvr bites. It would be my excess capacity tivo 

talk about being optimistic


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## Lee L

jcricket said:


> Yes. That certainly extends the "usable life" of the HR10, although I'm not sure how many HD customers will be happy if there are a bunch of HD channels they can't get. I suspect they will keep the current crop of MPEG2 HD channels online (not many, I know) for quite some time. They'll duplicate any national HD channels on the MPEG4 satellites and only add new ones on those new MPEG4 satellites.
> 
> I can't imagine many HD subscribers being happy knowing that there are even 5 HD channels they *can't* receive. Hell of an incentive (stick) to switch.


This is the poroblem. In my opinion, there is a littel bit of an implied contract in the purchase of equipment. I think it is a very reasonable assumption, on the part of a customer (absent a statement to the contrary from the provider) that when they purchase the receiver that it will work to receive programing that is added in the future. Basically, you are buying a programming delivery system. Now, they want to add new stuff but becasuse they changed things after you made a purchase, you are left out in the cold unless you pay more $ to upgrade.

This in one advantage in the consumers mind with cable. If they upgrade, just get a new leased box and turn in the old one.


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## newsposter

Lee L said:


> This in one advantage in the consumers mind with cable. If they upgrade, just get a new leased box and turn in the old one.


It's almost like satellite is pushing people to cable. even 10/month rental is 120/year = 8 years until you break even with your 1000 dollar hdtivo. And i'll bet it didn't work perfectly for 8 years either.


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## richierich

Not to mention that I had a bad hard drive and had to get it replaced because I didn't want to lose settings, etc. and tried to retain recordings but that didn't work. I will just use my 2 HR10-250s as a backup and extra hard drive capacity to record OTA HD programming with maybe one HR20 to use for MPEG-4 HD programming that I can't get via the HR10. You can never get too much hard drive space.


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## MichaelK

newsposter said:


> It's almost like satellite is pushing people to cable. even 10/month rental is 120/year = 8 years until you break even with your 1000 dollar hdtivo. And i'll bet it didn't work perfectly for 8 years either.


looks like directv is going lease only which will equal the mirroring fee for SD, HD, and SD DVR's. Examples in their memo dont say if HD DVR's will be $5 also. But even if they double it and go to $10 then it's competetive with cable.

Looks like Directv doesn't want start up costs to be an issue anymore...


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## jcricket

newsposter said:


> It's almost like satellite is pushing people to cable. even 10/month rental is 120/year = 8 years until you break even with your 1000 dollar hdtivo. And i'll bet it didn't work perfectly for 8 years either.


Well, as others have pointed out, this is why Satellite is returning to the lease model, and why I think the standalone Series 3 Tivo and other Home Media Centers will be a hard sell.

Some of the early adopters here (myself included) would probably pay $500 or more for some super-whiz-bang DVR (terabytes of storage, 4+ tuners, etc.) with all kinds of extra features (HMO, MRV, Internet programming). But I'd bet that 90-95% of people would be satisfied with the DVRs provided for $5-10/month by their provider. Especially when those DVRs are catching up in terms of core functionality (dual tuners, season passes, etc). If cable + satellite cos add-on even a little extra functionality (MRV, HMO, checking weather, stocks, movie times), there aren't many people who would care about whatever else owning your own DVR gets you. Cable, if it had a huge VOD library, could also mitigate a lot of the reason to even care about the DVR portion of your STB.

Again, I think the CableCard standard is great, and I hope that Microsoft, Tivo and Apple continue to innovate what DVRs can do. If nothing else it means that cable + satellite companies will have to keep up with the features in their own in-house DVRs. It's possible that the whole model will shift and we'll be able to subscribe to an online VOD/content delivery system and having a PC or Mac where all that content gets downloaded will be worthwhile.

Until then, a dual-tuner HD DVR from D* or Comcast sounds fine to me.


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