# Another person telling me I made a mistake getting Tivo



## remotecontrol (Nov 5, 2004)

"personally, i probably would have just gotten a regular dvr, or i would have gotten a tv tuner for my pc and used it as a dvr.

because with either of those options, there's no monthly fee.

although, i suppose, if you want the convenience of fancy-looking channel guides/menus, tivo is the way to go."

this person is a best Buy employee


I just bought my Tivo and haven't set it up yet(waiting on the cable co to come out). Anyone have a good response to this? I don't know enough about the features yet to make a blistering comeback.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

remotecontrol said:


> "personally, i probably would have just gotten a regular dvr, or i would have gotten a tv tuner for my pc and used it as a dvr.
> 
> because with either of those options, there's no monthly fee.
> 
> ...


frankly I ignore people who work at Best Buy when it comes to technology advice. If they knew the category well they would work at a place like Tweeters designing theater systems and installing the equipment.
I just use a simple "Nevermind, I am fine shopping on my own"

In the bigger picture, it seems best Buy has had trouble with people returning TiVo DVRs when they finally clue in there is a subscription. I also attribute that to Best Buy drones not being sharp enough to make sure the buyer read the box where that is clearly labelled as such.

for your case, TiVo is more than a regualr DVR and the whole PC as a DVR is a larger issue and think of the Time and money you will spend on that VS a TiVo with 299 lifetime susbcription.

Question - why do you need the cable company to come and install the TiVo ? Is it for DirectTV ?


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

TiVo has MANY more features than cable DVRs. 

It has wishlists, which let you search and record based on keywords, actors, directors, etc. You can transfer shows over your wired or wireless network to other TiVos in your house, or to your computer to burn to DVD. You can stream music and pictures stored on your computer and listen/view through the TiVo. You can transfer videos from your hard drive to your TiVo and watch them on your TV. You can schedule things online have them show up on your ToDo List 15 mintues later. The menu and software is far superior. It has extra perks, like when you fast forward through commercials and hit play, it will jump back to compensate for the lag in time. They can be hacked and upgraded. And you don't have to pay the monthly fee if you choose to pay the $299 for lifetime service.


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## remotecontrol (Nov 5, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Question - why do you need the cable company to come and install the TiVo ? Is it for DirectTV ?


I don't. I just didn't have cable before and they're installing it today.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

Why buy a car when a bicycle will get you there without the monthly fee of gas? Tivo is that much better.

Frank


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## remotecontrol (Nov 5, 2004)

good one Frank.


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

I wasn't sure I made the right choice with Tivo, but I am happy as pie with it. Check out the thread that I asked about Tivo and the responses. They made me feel better about it. Maybe they will make you feel better...

One thing I found that I love is the search function... I just put in Horror and it showed me all kinds of Horror Movies that were coming up that I never would have known about...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3757884#post3757884


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

fmowry said:


> Why buy a car when a bicycle will get you there without the monthly fee of gas? Tivo is that much better.
> 
> Frank


You forgot to mention the cost of extra hardware, not to mention the software he'll have to load on a PC that stays on 24/7, to take advatage of the things that make TiVo "that much better". Would anyone care to tell him about TiVo's ad-support policy? ( items 3.2 and 12 of the Agreement ). How about how TiVo sells your viewing habits to third parties? C'mon guys, that was my challenge to you in another thread. Tell potential customers the whole truth about TiVo.

To the OP: you'll find mostly one-sided answers here. This forum is all about the love of TiVo. If you want true objectivety, you need to pose your question in a general home theater or home electronics forum.

Have a nice day. 

...


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> In the bigger picture, it seems best Buy has had trouble with people returning TiVo DVRs when they finally clue in there is a subscription. I also attribute that to Best Buy drones not being sharp enough to make sure the buyer read the box where that is clearly labelled as such.


I don't care for the best buy drones myself, but why are you saying it's their fault for not telling the buyer to read the box ? Isn't it the buyer's responsibilty to read the box ?


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Stanley Rohner said:


> I don't care for the best buy drones myself, but why are you saying it's their fault for not telling the buyer to read the box ? Isn't it the buyer's responsibilty to read the box ?


I like this answer. That's why there should be copies of the service agreement at every TiVo display. Make sure the customer is well informed, I say. 

...


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

Fixer said:


> You forgot to mention the cost of extra hardware, not to mention the software he'll have to load on a PC that stays on 24/7, to take advatage of the things that make TiVo "that much better". Would anyone care to tell him about TiVo's ad-support policy? ( items 3.2 and 12 of the Agreement ). How about how TiVo sells your viewing habits to third parties? C'mon guys, that was my challenge to you in another thread. Tell potential customers the whole truth about TiVo.
> 
> To the OP: you'll find mostly one-sided answers here. This forum is all about the love of TiVo. If you want true objectivety, you need to pose your question in a general home theater or home electronics forum.
> 
> ...


Hi, I don't think from the way the OP was worded that (s)he was looking for objectivity.


remotecontrol said:


> Anyone have a good response to this? I don't know enough about the features yet to make a blistering comeback.


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

remotecontrol said:


> this person is a best Buy employee


When one listens to the advice of fools one is apt to make foolish choices.

Best buy , Circuit city, and the like are great places to buy as long as you know EXACTLY what you are looking for expect no knowledgeable help.

The fee is for quality software and the guide data and the ability to use it in the manner TiVo allows.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> not to mention the software he'll have to load on a PC that stays on 24/7, to take advatage of the things that make TiVo "that much better".


Most of my PCs are on 24/7 but why would they have to be just for TiVo?



Fixer said:


> Would anyone care to tell him about TiVo's ad-support policy? ( items 3.2 and 12 of the Agreement ). How about how TiVo sells your viewing habits to third parties? C'mon guys, that was my challenge to you in another thread. Tell potential customers the whole truth about TiVo.


The nice thing about TiVo is that they do spell all that stuff out clearly so you can go read it. Many cable DVRs have ads and make use of viewing data too - and some of it not tested by hackers for being anonymous like TiVo's.



Fixer said:


> To the OP: you'll find mostly one-sided answers here.


I think you do a fine job of balancing out anyone who appears to like a TiVo.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Fixer said:


> How about how TiVo sells your viewing habits to third parties? C'mon guys, that was my challenge to you in another thread. Tell potential customers the whole truth about TiVo.


Ok, you first. Start by offering the whole truth about your first statement. You know, that it's anonymous, aggregated data, not the personally identifiable data _your_ wording is designed to suggest. Maybe mention that you can opt out of the anonymous data if want, so Tivo will collect nothing.

Don't spew your own misleading FUD then ***** about everyone elses one sided answers.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand these types of threads... at least when I checked, both TiVo and the cable companies offer trial periods. Just get both and keep the one you like best.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

fmowry said:


> Why buy a car when a bicycle will get you there without the monthly fee of gas? Tivo is that much better.
> 
> Frank


Actually sorry but it would be more like a cheaper car and more expensive car. Free isn't always a bad thing. Many people have an issue with paying $13 a month for something to record shows when the cable DVR will do much the same thing for them. You can say lifetime but thats another $300 you have to pay. It's more or what are the extra features worth to you? I for one have multiple TiVo's so I guess it's worth it to me.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> You can say lifetime but thats another $300 you have to pay. It's more or what are the extra features worth to you? I for one have multiple TiVo's so I guess it's worth it to me.


Given the extremely high resale value of lifetime even after many years of operation, I think of it as more of a loan (from me to TiVo) than a payment.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I have both a TiVo and a Time Warner DVR (TWiVo). My Tivo is paid for, my TWivo costs $7 a month, forever (until they raise their fees). I have both because I like toys.  

I can tell you that there is NO comparison between the two. The TiVo is miles ahead of the TWivo--for many of the reasons you will see on this forum (search, programmability, etc.) The User Interface is so far ahead, that I am literally astonished that T-W can put out what they do.

You will be much happier with a TiVo.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

MickeS said:


> I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand these types of threads... at least when I checked, both TiVo and the cable companies offer trial periods. Just get both and keep the one you like best.


Buying one of everything and returning the ones you don't like isn't usually a practical substitute for pre-purchase research. Not all possible issues will manifest during the trial periods. Specific answers to questions can often be found more quickly in a forum (preferably by SEARCHING before asking) than by buying, hooking up, activating, and testing a box. Forums like this contain the accumulated wisdom - and yes, opinions - of hundreds of active and actual Tivo users accumulated over several years, whereas the brain of the average Best Buy droid is primarily occupied with ways to sell you extended warranties. Places like this need to have threads like this that people can go to to instead of relying on big box sales monkeys.

Of course forums like this also contain their share of people like Fixer, who's misinformation seems more deliberate and malevolent than ignorant. But unlike at Best Buy, this place is crowded with folks who know better so FUD like Fixers doesn't get far without getting challenged.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

DrStrange said:


> Buying one of everything and returning the ones you don't like isn't usually a practical substitute for pre-purchase research.


Besides the reasons DrStrange listed, if everyone made a habit of buying 2 or more of everything and returning the ones they didn't prefer, prices on everything would have to go up to cover that. Putting a little effort into determining what you want before you buy it is more cost-effective I think.

And remember, remotecontrol isn't evaluating PVRs. He wants a snappy answer to some Best Buy drone. "Borrowing" a cable co. DVR for a month just to do that seems like overkill to me. Then again, even responding to a Best Buy drone seems like overkill to me


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> You forgot to mention the cost of extra hardware, not to mention the software he'll have to load on a PC that stays on 24/7, to take advatage of the things that make TiVo "that much better". Would anyone care to tell him about TiVo's ad-support policy? ( items 3.2 and 12 of the Agreement ). How about how TiVo sells your viewing habits to third parties? C'mon guys, that was my challenge to you in another thread. Tell potential customers the whole truth about TiVo.
> 
> To the OP: you'll find mostly one-sided answers here. This forum is all about the love of TiVo. If you want true objectivety, you need to pose your question in a general home theater or home electronics forum.
> 
> ...


the drone from Best Buy was more balanced and more knowledgeable with his answer than you are with your post 

I doubt very few if any TiVos are retunred because of gold star or billboard ads in the few places you see them, or that many are upset that TiVo can say which Superbowl ad was rewound the most though they would have no idea if fixer rewound any or even recorded the Superbowl.

You give out a horribly one-sided opinion in every one of your posts and then preach about objectivity. any idea how foolish that makes you look?


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## frayedend (Feb 9, 2006)

To the OP:

I would just ignore the arguing between the super pro and anti Tivo posters and just get the info you need to make a good decision. I have found tons of info on the benefits and limits of Tivo on these boards. I didn't find the boards until after I got Tivo but my mind has been put at ease since reading.

There are benefits to Tivo that cable and other DVR's don't offer, but you may not even be interested in these benefits. If you just want a digital recorder that you have to program for a specific time and channel then Tivo may not be for you. But if you want an easy way to search for programs by name, director, or any key word, or set up recording of an entire season, or many other things that Tivo can do then go with Tivo. 

My name is Jim and I like Seinfeld, and National Geographic programs. My wife records American Idol, Ghost Whisperer, and Survivor. My kids have a season pass for Power Rangers Mystic Force (starts tonight I think, but I'm not sure and don't care because if I miss it Tivo won't) I don't care if Tivo knows this stuff and tells everyone


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

TiVo has search and record funtionality beyond your basic cable DVR, plus it just plain works right. Buy Lifetime Service and never pay a monthly fee. TiVo's cost of hardware is almost zero after rebate, so the Lifetime Service Fee is now less than what TiVo used to cost just for the box. Monthly payments to TiVo is great for TiVo's bottom line. Lifetime Service at $299 is a bargain. 

I have both DirecTiVos and standalone TiVo's working with DirecTV. When the dual tuner CC HD TiVo comes out, my agreement will be up with DirecTV and it's very possible I'll be back to cable after 12 years with DirecTV because TiVo is that good and the only way to get every TiVo feature will be in the new standalone Series3 TiVo due out the end of the year that will work with Cable Cards.


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## remotecontrol (Nov 5, 2004)

dgh said:


> Then again, even responding to a Best Buy drone seems like overkill to me


ha well I know that drone, sadly. I just wanted to put her in her place.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

remotecontrol said:


> this person is a best Buy employee
> 
> I just bought my Tivo and haven't set it up yet(waiting on the cable co to come out). Anyone have a good response to this? I don't know enough about the features yet to make a blistering comeback.


You want a blistering comeback that runs through your own mind, not one to actually say, right?

Now you know why this person is working retail at a Best Buy. Rather than say designing the next generation space shuttle.

Sorry -bout that.  Anyways, it'll take a couple of weeks before your Tivo starts to grow on you. Do plenty of thumbs-up and thumbs-down and it will soon be happily recording stuff according to your tastes. Have you evern been channel surfing and nothing good seemed to be on? Never again now that there's a "Now playing" section on your Tivo.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

remotecontrol said:


> ha well I know that drone, sadly. I just wanted to put her in her place.


She is in her place.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

HDTiVo said:


> She is in her place.


Ouch!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> Buying one of everything and returning the ones you don't like isn't usually a practical substitute for pre-purchase research.


No, but in the case of DVR comparisons I think it's a pretty good way of doing it. It is a hassle though, of course, to return stuff. So let's hope the TiVo wins, because the cable DVR is easier to return. 



> Not all possible issues will manifest during the trial periods.


True, but at least the user gets a feel for each product that is hard to get when you only read about them. To try them out doesn't mean you shouldn't read about them.



> And remember, remotecontrol isn't evaluating PVRs. He wants a snappy answer to some Best Buy drone. "Borrowing" a cable co. DVR for a month just to do that seems like overkill to me.


Probably.


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## Mamoth (Jun 21, 2004)

Fixer said:


> To the OP: you'll find mostly one-sided answers here. This forum is all about the love of TiVo. If you want true objectivety, you need to pose your question in a general home theater or home electronics forum.


I'd have to agree here. Can't really get an unbias answer from these forums. Heck, it's a TiVo forum for folks that love TiVo. It's the same thing as going into Best Buy and asking them. They will give you their opinion.. even if you do think it's poor. The same holds true for this site.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Except here they at least know something about the products they're praising.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

Mamoth said:


> I'd have to agree here. Can't really get an unbias answer from these forums. Heck, it's a TiVo forum for folks that love TiVo. It's the same thing as going into Best Buy and asking them. They will give you their opinion.. even if you do think it's poor. The same holds true for this site.


You are very correct, and after all everything is an opinion here. I would say you should look at some of the reviews for both the products look at both the good and bad points and see which will fit your needs. If you just want basic DVR functions then maybe the cable DVR will be fine for you. I would suggest you find out exactly what DVR they would be giving you as I have heard some are worse then others.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

remotecontrol said:


> Anyone have a good response to this? I don't know enough about the features yet to make a blistering comeback.


Look, remote, sometime you just have to suck it up and admit you made a mistake. You made a mistake, deal with it. In this case your mistake was not buying _two_ TiVos.


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> frankly I ignore people who work at Best Buy when it comes to technology advice. If they knew the category well they would work at a place like Tweeters designing theater systems and installing the equipment.
> I just use a simple "Nevermind, I am fine shopping on my own"


What do you call people who work at Best Buy?

A: Burger Flippers...


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I have both a TiVo and a Time Warner DVR (TWiVo). My Tivo is paid for, my TWivo costs $7 a month, forever (until they raise their fees). I have both because I like toys.


The one cool thing about the TW box is that if it breaks, or if they upgrade to newer tech, you can just exchange the box. That's a pretty damn good incentive in my book. :up:



astrohip said:


> I can tell you that there is NO comparison between the two. The TiVo is miles ahead of the TWivo--for many of the reasons you will see on this forum (search, programmability, etc.) The User Interface is so far ahead, that I am literally astonished that T-W can put out what they do.


In all honesty, I will have to agree on this point. Compared to a cable co. DVR, TiVo does a better job at searching and scheduling, and although the GUI is slower, it is more pleasing to the eyes. However, there are alternatives that also have slick lookin' user interfaces. The Moxi boxes offered by some providers seem to get good praises. The new DVR/DVDR box by LG, with the Microsoft Guide, also looks pretty neat, plus, you don't have to pay a fee to use it. I haven't actually seen one in action, but from it's feature list, it does what TiVo can do and then some. 



dgh said:


> The nice thing about TiVo is that they do spell all that stuff out clearly so you can go read it.


Only after you've purchased it, taken it home, and opened the box. When I purchased my TiVo a couple of years ago, there were NO service agreement pamphlets on the shelf. Oh, I know, 300 million Americans, and countless other over-seas folks should just research TiVo on the intenet before they buy, right? I mean, c'mon, everyone should have a PC turned on and networked 24/7. Geez, what was I thinking. 



DrStrange said:


> Ok, you first. Start by offering the whole truth about your first statement. You know, that it's anonymous, aggregated data, not the personally identifiable data your wording is designed to suggest. Maybe mention that you can opt out of the anonymous data if want, so Tivo will collect nothing.


Sure, I agree that the data TiVo sells to third parties is most likely anonymous. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that the info stored in the TiVo database is in no way personally identifiable (by DVR ID#). Wasn't TiVo supposedly touted as the "Holy Grail" of Madison Avenue? TiVo's "habit farming" sets the stage for targeted advertising. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but as long as I'm paying a fee to TiVo, I'd rather keep my viewing habits to myself. 



ZeoTiVo said:


> the drone from Best Buy was more balanced and more knowledgeable with his answer than you are with your post
> 
> I doubt very few if any TiVos are retunred because of gold star or billboard ads in the few places you see them, of that many are upset that TiVo can say which Superbowl ad was rewound the most though they would have no idea if fixer rewound any or even recorded the Suoperbowl.
> 
> You give out a horribly one-sided opinion in every one of your posts and then preach about objectivity. any idea how foolish that makes you look?


Good ol' Zeo!! You make me chuckle everytime I read one of your "TiVo lovin'" or "kill the TiVo heretic!!" posts. You maintain the same ideology as many preachers and imams. Always spouting the "good chapters", but never the "bad". You're the type that just wants to keep the new sheep "blind", but scream "APOSTATE!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!", when the truth is discovered. As I've stated numerous times, I don't have an issue with the TiVo box itself, it's TiVo Corp. "back end" policies that I don't care for. The more informed potential customers are, the more empowered they are. 

...


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> Only after you've purchased it, taken it home, and opened the box. When I purchased my TiVo a couple of years ago, there were NO service agreement pamphlets on the shelf. Oh, I know, 300 million Americans, and countless other over-seas folks should just research TiVo on the intenet before they buy, right?


Obviously. Just like any other purchase. If you're afraid of the Internet, TiVo has been reviewed in magazines and newspapers. For example, I read about TiVo's policies in The Wall Street Journal and Wired magazine way back in 1998, yet you were shocked by them many years later. I also read about them in Video Review and The Perfect Vision. Alternately, if you don't read any printed or computer media, talk to your friends. You have friends, right?

Crawl out from under your rock once in awhile, and not just to post a nastygram on a forum. In the time you've spent flaming TiVo, you could have selected your next 5 products wisely for a change.

Oh and if you screw up again, take it back. Most retailers give you 30 days to make up your mind. Some give 90. Some give even longer. It doesn't make sense to spend so much time blaming others for your mistakes when they are so easily corrected.



Fixer said:


> I mean, c'mon, everyone should have a PC turned on and networked 24/7. Geez, what was I thinking.


What are you talking about?



Fixer said:


> Wasn't TiVo supposedly touted as the "Holy Grail" of Madison Avenue? TiVo's "habit farming" sets the stage for targeted advertising.


Now you're quoting them from 1998 and years later you're claiming to be shocked by their "new" business model which has ads. Maybe you're only pretending you were ignorant.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Fixer said:


> Sure, I agree that the data TiVo sells to third parties is most likely anonymous. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that the info stored in the TiVo database is in no way personally identifiable (by DVR ID#).


Seriously, why don't you atleast search the forums or use google before you make such idiotic comments. The data the TiVo sends has been analysed and there is no identifiable information sent. Plus, TiVo's agreement makes this clear. Are you calling TiVo a liar? If so, then they would be in huge trouble with a lot of people. But, that is not the case and you know it.


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## xnevergiveinx (Apr 5, 2004)

i have a computer with a tv card in it. i can use it as a dvr. i don't.
why? not sure, maybe because tivo is easier to use. 

after using my pc for a month and not being totally happy with it, i tried a tivo at best buy. after about 3 remote button presses, i knew i wanted it.
now, i use the pc for video capture.


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## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

dgh said:


> Obviously. Just like any other purchase. If you're afraid of the Internet, TiVo has been reviewed in magazines and newspapers. For example, I read about TiVo's policies in The Wall Street Journal and Wired magazine way back in 1998, yet you were shocked by them many years later. I also read about them in Video Review and The Perfect Vision. Alternately, if you don't read any printed or computer media, talk to your friends.


So, you're saying that a product like TiVo does in fact need to be thoroughly researched before one is purchased? Also, if we don't research via the internet, we should subscribe to numerous A/V trade publications to see what they have to say? Gotcha. :up: I'll make sure the other 297 million TiVo-less Americans are aware of this. 



dgh said:


> You have friends, right?


~4500 posts, in a product specific internet forum, versus ~100. You be the judge. 



dgh said:


> Crawl out from under your rock once in awhile, and not just to post a nastygram on a forum. In the time you've spent flaming TiVo, you could have selected your next 5 products wisely for a change.
> 
> Oh and if you screw up again, take it back. Most retailers give you 30 days to make up your mind. Some give 90. Some give even longer. It doesn't make sense to spend so much time blaming others for your mistakes when they are so easily corrected.


So, it was unwise to buy a TiVo?? Wow, I think we just found the third member of TiVos new marketing team. 



dgh said:


> Now you're quoting them from 1998 and years later you're claiming to be shocked by their "new" business model which has ads. Maybe you're only pretending you were ignorant.


I didn't even think about buying TiVo 'til 2003. I made my decision based on how I purchased every other CE product in my home; I visit a few stores to gauge price, compare feature sets, then buy. I believe that's how most folks shop for stuff. Was I ignorant about TiVo's lame business policies when I bought it? Yes. Am I ignorant about it now? After reviewing how you worded the statement above, I would say "No". Thanks for the vote of confidence. 



rainwater said:


> Seriously, why don't you atleast search the forums or use google before you make such idiotic comments. The data the TiVo sends has been analysed and there is no identifiable information sent. Plus, TiVo's agreement makes this clear. Are you calling TiVo a liar? If so, then they would be in huge trouble with a lot of people. But, that is not the case and you know it.


Here's a little quote from a 2004 CNet article (Google it): _"Although TiVo could conceivably investigate an individual's viewing habits, it doesn't, a spokesman said."_ So, the "spokesperson" (whomever it was) says they can, but they just don't do it. It's sort of like the argument made in regards to upgrading a TiVo and the service agreement. Everyone seemed to agee that the policy DOES state that upgrading will violate the agreement, in which case, TiVo would have the right to terminate service. However, many TiVo supporters surmised that TiVo Corp will never make an issue of it. I will have to agree on this point, but the fact still remains... THEY CAN!!.

...


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Fixer said:


> The one cool thing about the TW box is that if it breaks, or if they upgrade to newer tech, you can just exchange the box. That's a pretty damn good incentive in my book.


HAHA! Cable companies upgrading to newer tech! Haha! Stop it, you're killing me!

My cable company gave me a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 two years ago. It's crippled crap with a god awful user interface. The only "upgrade" they've offered is to the 8300 which I just had installed yesterday after coming this close to cancelling Comcasts TV service because of how badly I hated the 8000. I'd heard the 8300 had improved and more capable software but mine seems to have the same crap software the 8000 did. It does add firewire and SATA interfaces that some report work (then again, some also reported better software), and a working s-video port (that's right, the 8000 didn't have a working s-video out) but doesn't appear to fix any of the reasons I got rid of the 8000. If I can't find something compelling about this "upgrade" I'll be cancelling Comcast this week, and giving up my only source of HD just because of how horrible their DVR is.



> However, there are alternatives that also have slick lookin' user interfaces. The Moxi boxes offered by some providers seem to get good praises.


Which does no good if you're not served by one of those very few providers. It's not an alternative for those who can't use one at any cost.



> The new DVR/DVDR box by LG, with the Microsoft Guide, also looks pretty neat, plus, you don't have to pay a fee to use it. I haven't actually seen one in action, but from it's feature list, it does what TiVo can do and then some.


Wow, a single-tuner standard definition DVR. Welcome to 1999. Wait, it has a DVD burner. Ok, welcome to 2003. Groundbreaking. The lack of a fee is something, but I was unable to find a privacy policy for it. I'd like to know how they're funding the guide data service before I push it as an alternative to ad-supported DVRs.



> Only after you've purchased it, taken it home, and opened the box. When I purchased my TiVo a couple of years ago, there were NO service agreement pamphlets on the shelf. Oh, I know, 300 million Americans, and countless other over-seas folks should just research TiVo on the intenet before they buy, right? I mean, c'mon, everyone should have a PC turned on and networked 24/7. Geez, what was I thinking.


dgh already pointed out what an idiotic statement this is just on it's face. We're talking about browsing some web sites, not running a personal web server. Your PC doesn't need to be on 24/7 to read a friggin privacy policy, it doesn't need to be networked. You don't even need a PC if you have a library, office, or friend that does. Subtract from those 300 million americans babies and preschoolers who can't buy Tivo, people who can't afford Tivo (a distinct possibility among those without internet access) and people who just aren't interested we find a the more relevant version of your hyperbolic crack applies to considerably fewer than 300 million americans. The vast majority of those "countless" overseas folks (actually around 6.2 billion - they are counted regularly) can't even use Tivo. Of the remaining group, those who are considering Tivo, most would have sufficient internet access to do research and I doubt any significant number of them view pre-purchase internet research as the unfair, unreasonable, burdensome practice your over-the-top hypothetical suggests you think it is. I expect most are glad to have it and use it as their primary research source for any significant purchase.

For the handful who really can't get to the internet for a few hours of research, there's this, from Tivos privacy policy:

"9.3 Contact TiVo. Our intention is to be diligent in protecting your privacy by strictly following our Privacy Policy. If you would like to make suggestions or *find out more about our privacy practices, please call us at 1-877-367-8486 or send us a letter.* Our mailing address is TiVo Inc., ATTN: Privacy Policy, 2160 Gold Street, P.O. Box 2160, Alviso CA 95002-2160."

Doubtless you're going to claim that without having internet access to read the policy with nobody would know to pick up a phone and call Tivo. Because we all remember before the internet when everyone just ran around yelling "I need information from company X and have no idea how to get it!! When will they invent the Internet?"



> Sure, I agree that the data TiVo sells to third parties is most likely anonymous. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that the info stored in the TiVo database is in no way personally identifiable (by DVR ID#).


So after that much honesty about Tivo had to be pulled out of you, now you're trying to qualify it with unfounded suppositions that Tivo is hiding things? I'd quip about "pot, meet kettle" except that you're the only one guilty of fudging information here, not Tivo.

Tivos privacy policy is a legally binding document. It says they don't collect personally identifiable data, and that if they change that policy they have to notify you. Gathering personal data in violation of their agreement without telling anyone would have legal repercussions. A few years ago some privacy group did some sloppy tests that, according to them, suggested that Tivo was gathering personal viewing stats in violation of their agreement. Congress even had the FTC investigate. The FTC did, and said there was nothing there. Which of course legions of Tivo hackers already knew, as they'd already studied the data Tivo sends in much more detail.

If they did decide to collect data they'd have to change the policy and notify all their users, and that would have unpleasant consequences. Not that they _couldn't_ change their policy, but they certainly couldn't do it secretly, and the backlash almost certainly wouldn't be worth it. If you think about it there's not much an advertiser could do with your personal TV viewing habits, but I doubt you concern yourself with practical questions about this alleged data gathering. You just like making the accusation.



> Wasn't TiVo supposedly touted as the "Holy Grail" of Madison Avenue? TiVo's "habit farming" sets the stage for targeted advertising. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but as long as I'm paying a fee to TiVo, I'd rather keep my viewing habits to myself.


The model that Tivo talked about required no information leave your box. Servers would send advertisements to boxes without regard to personal viewing preferences (which the servers don't have) and the box would use it's stored preferences to determine which ads to display. This is the same way suggestions work.

Besides, after 7 years Tivo still isn't doing targeted ads. They're still sending the same ads to everybody, which is why I stopped paying attention to them a long time ago. Which is why I don't care if they're ad supported, because the ads are put in places I never have to watch if I don't want to.



> Always spouting the "good chapters", but never the "bad".


Are you really that blind to what a hypocrite you're being here?



> So, you're saying that a product like TiVo does in fact need to be thoroughly researched before one is purchased?


Just like any other product, that's pretty clearly what he said. I mean strictly speaking research is optional, but if you choose not to do it then being unpleasantly surprised by well-documented issues is entirely your own fault. That goes for any product you buy.



> Also, if we don't research via the internet, we should subscribe to numerous A/V trade publications to see what they have to say? Gotcha. :up: I'll make sure the other 297 million TiVo-less Americans are aware of this.


That is what people did before the internet. Except you don't have to subscribe to anything (yet another ridiculous overstatment), just browse magazine racks once a month. Or go to a library but if you do that you may as well just hop on the internet. And as I said, you can get a copy of Tivos privacy policy with a phone call. But really, this whole "what if you don't have internet access" argument is silly as it only applies to people who don't have _any_ access to the internet at all, a group which probably contains very few potential Tivo customers. It also seems rather pointless to carry out your little campaign on an internet forum where the people most affected will never get your "information". Take your little show to Best Buy.



> ~4500 posts, in a product specific internet forum, versus ~100. You be the judge.


5.5 years in said internet forum offering help and constructive information, vs nearly one year spent here doing almost nothing but bashing an consumer electronics product, often with fabrications? Yeah, I'm sure people are just lining up to be _your_ best friend.



> So, it was unwise to buy a TiVo?? Wow, I think we just found the third member of TiVos new marketing team.


Another pathetic distortion of dgh's words.



> I didn't even think about buying TiVo 'til 2003. I made my decision based on how I purchased every other CE product in my home; I visit a few stores to gauge price, compare feature sets, then buy. I believe that's how most folks shop for stuff. Was I ignorant about TiVo's lame business policies when I bought it? Yes.


Did you have an internet connection? Did you spend a fraction of the time researching Tivo as you're now spending complaining about it? Shouldn't you be properly researching whatever DVR you're going to buy next so as to save yourself the trouble of spending the next year in _their_ forums bashing it?



> It's sort of like the argument made in regards to upgrading a TiVo and the service agreement. Everyone seemed to agee that the policy DOES state that upgrading will violate the agreement, in which case, TiVo would have the right to terminate service. However, many TiVo supporters surmised that TiVo Corp will never make an issue of it. I will have to agree on this point, but the fact still remains... THEY CAN!!.


What does that have to do with anything? The service agreement only says Tivo "reserves the right to" discontinue service on modified boxes. It's a right Tivo gives itself but it's not binding wording. Not enforcing that policy doesn't violate the agreement.

The privacy policy situation is completely different. Saying they don't gather personal data gives _you_ a right that they can't just suspend without your permission or without proper process, which means modifying the privacy policy and notifying you of the changes. Tivo hackers and the FTC have already verified that Tivo adheres to their privacy policy. If you're going to worry (or try to get others to worry, which is mostly what you seem interested in) that Tivo _could_ surreptitiously do something based on a theoretical technical capability to do so, I'm amazed that you have any time to post here at all what with all the ranting you must be doing in other forums about every other company on the planet that really _does_ collect personal data on you that's a lot more personal and valuable than what TV you watch, and many of whom _do_ sell that information to third parties.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Fixer said:


> Good ol' Zeo!! You make me chuckle everytime I read one of your "TiVo lovin'" or "kill the TiVo heretic!!" posts. You maintain the same ideology as many preachers and imams. Always spouting the "good chapters", but never the "bad". You're the type that just wants to keep the new sheep "blind", but scream "APOSTATE!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!", when the truth is discovered. As I've stated numerous times, I don't have an issue with the TiVo box itself, it's TiVo Corp. "back end" policies that I don't care for. The more informed potential customers are, the more empowered they are.
> 
> ...


yet somehow you are the one screaming all the zealous stuff and ignoring what you want to ignore.

please reference DrStrange post for all the "objectivity"  in your post


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Fixer said:


> The new DVR/DVDR box by LG, with the Microsoft Guide, also looks pretty neat, plus, you don't have to pay a fee to use it. I haven't actually seen one in action, but from it's feature list, it does what TiVo can do and then some.


There is a fee for that box -- $9.95/month, or $249 for product lifetime. I saw an ad last weekend in the Best Buy brochure that if you bought the box they would waive the lifetime fee. But the box is $600, so it doesn't seem to be a better deal than a TiVo or Humax box with lifetime sub.

And if someone is going to be collecting data from my DVR, please God let it be TiVo and not Microsoft.


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## tekgeek (Feb 8, 2006)

I have been a TIVO owner for 14 months now. I purchased it for my wife when I upgraded to an HDTV with a Denon head in unit. I run the whole thing with one Harmony remote.

The interface is the easiest to use in the industry. It is also the best value out there. I would highly recommend it for anyone entering the DVR world. 

I am working on building a full blown 2TB media center server. This will allow me to play music, movies, view photos and of coarse record tv (including HD). This will replace my TIVO and subscription. However I am familar with technology I can write my own software and lets not forget the estimated $3000.00 price tag and 300 or so hours for assembly and working out the bugs.

Stick with the TIVO for now. At a cost of $500 with the lifetime subscription (80 hour DVR with a DVD burner). You can't beat the value. You will know within a few months if TIVO is for you. If you don't like it sell it on EBAY. You will get back almost every dime.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

rainwater said:


> Seriously, why don't you atleast search the forums or use google before you make such idiotic comments. The data the TiVo sends has been analysed and there is no identifiable information sent. Plus, TiVo's agreement makes this clear. Are you calling TiVo a liar? If so, then they would be in huge trouble with a lot of people. But, that is not the case and you know it.


So if they know absolutely nothing about anyone then how are they going to implement the targeted ad's? Yes I know the data they are selling has been scrubbed (oh by the way I am sure someone will correct this if it's wrong, the data is cleaned after transmission not before. Or at least I think thats what I remembered reading here) I personally don't care one way or the other but not all of what he said is wrong.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> Wow, a single-tuner standard definition DVR. Welcome to 1999. Wait, it has a DVD burner. Ok, welcome to 2003. Groundbreaking. The lack of a fee is something, but I was unable to find a privacy policy for it. I'd like to know how they're funding the guide data service before I push it as an alternative to ad-supported DVRs.


Well the project is funded by Microsoft, so i'm not sure what better funding source you could possibly ask for. Now is you data safe? Well one I don't know if they even collect any data but as for the part see my first statement this is Microsoft. 

Take that however you want to lol


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> So if they know absolutely nothing about anyone then how are they going to implement the targeted ad's?


Ok, first: it's ADS. Not ad's. Plurals don't have apostrophes. Also "loose" and "lose" are two different words (that's not directed at you, just a preemptive strike at whoever next uses the former as though it means the latter).

Second, I mentioned in my spammy post up above. The servers were to send ads to the boxes without knowledge of the users viewing habits and the box would choose which ads to display based on the habits which it _does_ have. Nothing leaves the box. It's no different than suggestions which are also implemented without any server knowledge of your personal viewing habits.

Third: Who cares about targeted ads at this point? Tivo talked about that ages ago, and has moved no closer to it.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Fixer said:


> So, you're saying that a product like TiVo does in fact need to be thoroughly researched before one is purchased?


I'm saying your enjoyment of *any* product will be greatly enhanced by knowing what it is before you randomly throw your money at some cashier. You have proven this yourself. But if you screw up again, just return it.



Fixer said:


> Also, if we don't research via the internet, we should subscribe to numerous A/V trade publications to see what they have to say? Gotcha. :up: I'll make sure the other 297 million TiVo-less Americans are aware of this.


Most of them already know that thought is useful before and during the spending of money. That's why you're the one flaming his head off constantly and the rest of them are having fun with gadgets that actually appeal to them. But no, you *don't* need to subscribe to numerous publications. The point was that this was described in every one of those. You only needed to read *something*. You don't need to subscribe either. They have them at the library.



Fixer said:


> ~4500 posts, in a product specific internet forum, versus ~100. You be the judge.


Having read most of those ~100 it is pretty easy to judge. That's why I recommended reading first, and friends only as a last resort. Putting it another, way, I've talked about TiVos policies with 6 of my friends.



Fixer said:


> So, it was unwise to buy a TiVo?? Wow, I think we just found the third member of TiVos new marketing team.


I just love how you can't make a consistent argument for anything. Was your TiVo a wise purchase or was it not? If it was a wise purchase, then why are you so angry at the world?



Fixer said:


> I visit a few stores to gauge price, compare feature sets, then buy. I believe that's how most folks shop for stuff. Was I ignorant about TiVo's lame business policies when I bought it? Yes.


A fool and his money are soon parted. Try to be less foolish next time.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> Well the project is funded by Microsoft, so i'm not sure what better funding source you could possibly ask for.


Microsoft certainly has money, but unless Bill and Melissas philanthropy efforts have been extended to include providing free TV guide data for all the nations of the world, I can't see them running the service for free. There was a fee but they dropped it last month. That's an ongoing cost that has to be paid for somehow.



> Now is you data safe? Well one I don't know if they even collect any data but as for the part see my first statement this is Microsoft.


Yeah, good ol' benevolent Microsoft, they never do anything nasty. What's to worry about?

I've read their privacy policy. It's not as clear as Tivos regarding opt-out and data collection and their mention of using the data to "provide customized services or technologies to you" frankly leaves the door open a crack for sending things they think I want, whether I want them or not. At the very least they need to download personal usage data to implement (unlike Tivos approach which does not) and they don't yet have a track record for how these "customized services" will appear or how intrusive they'll be. It's a bit soon to adopt Fixers attitude that it's a cure-all for the (mostly misrepresented and exaggerated) Tivo issues he's going on about.

It might be a good deal, but as I said, a single tuner standard def DVR now seems a bit late to the party. If it puts some competitive pressure on Tivo SAs that's fine, but I'm not hankering for it yet. At present I'm fine with my dual-tuner SD DirecTivos, and I expect my next DVR will be HD, preferably dual-tuner HD CableCARD Tivo.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> There is a fee for that box -- $9.95/month, or $249 for product lifetime. I saw an ad last weekend in the Best Buy brochure that if you bought the box they would waive the lifetime fee. But the box is $600, so it doesn't seem to be a better deal than a TiVo or Humax box with lifetime sub.
> 
> And if someone is going to be collecting data from my DVR, please God let it be TiVo and not Microsoft.


Actually, they dropped the monthly/lifetime fee just recently and offered a refund for those who paid it. Of course, its pretty obvious they had to since they couldn't compete at that price point.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Fixer said:


> Here's a little quote from a 2004 CNet article (Google it): _"Although TiVo could conceivably investigate an individual's viewing habits, it doesn't, a spokesman said."_ So, the "spokesperson" (whomever it was) says they can, but they just don't do it.


Well, sure. The TiVo is based on a pretty general purpose computer (linux running on a mips processor). It could conceivably; run SETI at home, use your internet connection to be a web server, run a word processor, try to hack the DoDs computer system, etc. etc. etc, but it doesn't.

Of course TiVo could send out a software update that could make the box do any of those things, but they don't.

At this point they say that they don't collect personalized data, people have checked and seen that, sure enough viewing data isn't personalized. And they've checked that if you call and opt out of the anonymous data gathering the TiVo stops sending it.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Kanyon71 said:


> So if they know absolutely nothing about anyone then how are they going to implement the targeted ad's? Yes I know the data they are selling has been scrubbed (oh by the way I am sure someone will correct this if it's wrong, the data is cleaned after transmission not before.


The viewing data is sent without an personal information or details linking it back to the TiVo that sent it. (In your terms it is scrubbed before transmission). The only detail that is sent with the viewing information is your zip code.

This allows TiVo to group the viewing data geographically, without providing them any personalized information.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> Ok, first: it's ADS. Not ad's. Plurals don't have apostrophes. Also "loose" and "lose" are two different words (that's not directed at you, just a preemptive strike at whoever next uses the former as though it means the latter).
> 
> Second, I mentioned in my spammy post up above. The servers were to send ads to the boxes without knowledge of the users viewing habits and the box would choose which ads to display based on the habits which it _does_ have. Nothing leaves the box. It's no different than suggestions which are also implemented without any server knowledge of your personal viewing habits.
> 
> Third: Who cares about targeted ads at this point? Tivo talked about that ages ago, and has moved no closer to it.


Ages ago as in the last 2-3 months? Sorry for not spelling it correctly (as if that actually changes anything here). I guess my understanding of how it was to work is different then your understanding. Who is actually correct may never be known or may be known if/when the technology actually hits. I actually think it's kind of cool to see stats of what is watched and rewatched often. Doesn't really bother me, but they DO have the ability to tell who does what if they choose to.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> Microsoft certainly has money, but unless Bill and Melissas philanthropy efforts have been extended to include providing free TV guide data for all the nations of the world, I can't see them running the service for free. There was a fee but they dropped it last month. That's an ongoing cost that has to be paid for somehow.
> 
> Yeah, good ol' benevolent Microsoft, they never do anything nasty. What's to worry about?
> 
> ...


I'm sure there is a reason they are giving it away free now. Probably has to do with some add-on thats being planned for the Xbox 360. Now as for my second statement I was being sarcastic, MS makes some very insecure products and thats more what I was referring to, NOT them having our best interests at heart.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I don't understand the big deal IF TiVo collected data. Most websites collect data all the time, and people don't care. I doubt most people would care if TiVo did it too.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> So if they know absolutely nothing about anyone then how are they going to implement the targeted ad's? Yes I know the data they are selling has been scrubbed (oh by the way I am sure someone will correct this if it's wrong, the data is cleaned after transmission not before. Or at least I think thats what I remembered reading here)


 The data was looked at by hackers who sniffed the transmissions to and from TiVo. What TiVo does is have two seperate systems - one runs the TiVo Plus service and does indeed indentify the TiVo by TSN. The other collects the data for aggregating into anonymous viewer info. 
No viewing data or what is ste to record etc.. goes over the TiVo Plus info back to TiVo. they would send ads down and the TiVo box itself would have to look at the shows and decide on targetting locally.
no indentifiable data goes over the collection of viewing data. It goes into another system totally seperate from the TiVo Plus info. once there no link can be made to a specific TiVo. You opt out of anonymous data collection and the second feed of data back to TiVo stops.

TiVo could CONCEIVABLY change that and link it all back together so they could do better targetted ads - but that would change their privacy policy and they would have to say they changed it.



> I personally don't care one way or the other but not all of what he said is wrong.


 agreed. TiVo has the subscription info on the box but it is in same type face as anything else - does not stand out. 
Also TiVo makes little mention of the ad supported policy and you would have to research to know this before purchase. those points are not in dispute by anyone.

But Fixer's insistence that this is a critical thing that needs a bold flyer in every store and then tries to point to a DVR for 600$ that has its monthly fee waived for a promo to get its market share and uses Microsoft for guide data; or cable companies as an alternative to fee based, ad supported product just go beyond the pale of reason.

So a valid observation that there are some basic facts Fixer started from adn TiVo inc. has made some deliberate choices, but it is Fixer's problem that his posting style is one of constantly saying anything to support his incorrect view of the total reality while accusing others of having some agenda. If he posts FUD then he will get a bad reaction and anything meaningful or constructive in his stance is long lost.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> Ages ago as in the last 2-3 months?


No, ages ago as in years. It was the plan when I got my Tivo in 2000. At this point fretting about how they might do it is silly until they actually do it.


> I guess my understanding of how it was to work is different then your understanding.


Your "understanding" appears to be a somewhat paranoid guess. My understanding comes from things Tivo employees said here years ago, and the understanding that suggestions already works this way.


> Who is actually correct may never be known or may be known if/when the technology actually hits.


This isn't the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot we're talking about. Back when they first talked about doing it, they explained how it would work. If they don't already have patents in place they likely will by the time they do do it. It's not a cosmic mystery. As I said, the suggestions feature already uses the concept. It extends quite easily to targeted ads. There's nothing head-scratchingly difficult about it.


> Doesn't really bother me, but they DO have the ability to tell who does what if they choose to.


Yes, as has been pointed out they have the _technical_ ability to do lots of things. However their legally binding stated policies and market considerations limit what they can actually do, and Tivo users have verified they don't do things they say they don't do. Fearmongers and trolls like to ignore these little details.



Kanyon71 said:


> I'm sure there is a reason they are giving it away free now.


Clearly, since they wouldn't if there wasn't. Strangely, that blindingly obvious truism doesn't reassure me at all.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> Doesn't really bother me, but they DO have the ability to tell who does what if they choose to.


as noted, in their current system setup - *they do not have this ability* as verified by numerous hackers of TiVo.
- you know you do not have any more knowledge than the hackers do, you need to take note of the word *Conceivably* used by some spokesman in that article. It makes a big difference in the meaning of his quote.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Pro's
1. Cable DVR's get guide data from the cable provider, if their system goes down many of the set top boxes cable provides won't have any guide data available. Tivo holds 2 weeks worth of guide data that updates daily, sometimes more often if you have a broadband connection.

2. The ability to move shows from one tivo to another or to a third device. I don't think any cable company is going to allow this any time soon. 

3. Wishlists and Season passes...mentioned in another reply.

4. A to do list so you can check the upcoming shows that are to be recorded. It also has a recording history built into this that allows you to see why a show didn't record. 

5. The market leader in usability. TiVo is the standard the cable companies are trying to emulate.

6. This is personal, but when it comes to monopolistic companies like power and cable I like to diversify my usage so that one company doesn't have a stranglehold on me. So, if I'm a little late one month on my cable bill I don't lose everything if they shut me down. Granted this doesn't happen often, but it's the principle of it that I don't like. It's like the gas company giving you a free hot water heater when you sign up for natural gas heat. They do it for two reasons, 1) to get money from you year round, and 2) the have some leverage with you if going into the warm months you still have a balance. 

Con's
1. Pricey. TiVo requires more of an upfront expense than cable DVR's. However given the hidden fees that come with a cable DVR monthly fees comeout about the same. In my area, you can't get a cable DVR without also buying digital cable. The cost of the box is less, but once you add in the Digital Cable it's much more.

2. Compatibility. TiVo is most compatible with basic cable. It CAN work with satellite and cable set top boxes, but the set up can be problematic and require tenting of the IR ports. 

3. Some people have also reported that the set top box from the cable provider will auto shutdown making channel changing from the tivo difficult or impossible. 

4. Digital cable. Tivo cannot recieve digital cable or HD without a converter. (Cable set top box) Of course the series 3 provides a mechanism to do just this, however it isn't compatible with satellite service.

5. Some people have expressed reservations about the picture quality of a tivo on large screen TV's. 

That's pretty much all I can think of. I hope you find it balanced.


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## BLeonard (Nov 19, 1999)

I have 3 series 1 Tivos all purchased in late 1999/early 2000. I'm a huge Tivo fan and resisted all competitors for years.

I finally made the move to HD in my living room about 6 months ago though and needed to get the Bright House DVR. I still have two Tivos hooked up to this system along with the Bright House unit but I have to say that I have been using the Bright House DVR almost exclusively.

There is a lot I don't like about it and features I miss from my Tivos but to be honest there are some things I do like.

I like that I can go into my to do list or now playing list while continuing to watch a program in a smaller area of the screen.

I like the way I can extend a program's life by just moving it up or down the list.

Of course I like the dual tuner and the HD recording.

It seems to be pretty reliable, although I do get some freezes and stutters during some HD programming.

It only holds about 6 or 7 days of schedule info and that goes away I guess when it needs the memory and I have to page through day by day and force it to load data.

It doesn't have very good search or browse capabilities compared to Tivo so I'm probably missing programming I would have recorded otherwise but that may be a good thing. I'm a little less overwhelmed with content making me feel like watching TV was a chore I had to complete.

As far as monthly costs go the Bright House unit actually costs me something. The Tivos I paid for lifetime years ago so there is no continuing cost.

I look forward to the upcoming HD Tivo. I also hope they continue to evolve their interface. They are superior in many ways but can always learn something from their competition as well.

It's like Microsoft is always ripping off their ideas from Macintosh but occasionally the Mac will get an idea from Microsoft and implement it better.


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## netman2670 (Oct 21, 2003)

With all due respect to the people at Best Buy...don't EVER take any kind of technical advice from them. They are generally out there without hardly an ounce of tech training. Do your homework first. Know what you want and purchase it without having to ask them questions. I have actually tested BB employees on things I know about. Some of them tried to tell me outright lies. It's just that they don't want to admit they don't know.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> No, ages ago as in years. It was the plan when I got my Tivo in 2000. At this point fretting about how they might do it is silly until they actually do it.
> 
> Your "understanding" appears to be a somewhat paranoid guess. My understanding comes from things Tivo employees said here years ago, and the understanding that suggestions already works this way.
> 
> ...


They also have a clause that states they can change things at any point they wish. So what stated policies mean nothing as they can be changed and all they have to do is send out a correspondence stating the new policy and have it available. The concept of the targeted ads was brought up by TiVo not too awful long ago again. I guess I was wrong about the way the ad system would work or what I read was which led me to that conclusion.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> as noted, in their current system setup - *they do not have this ability* as verified by numerous hackers of TiVo.
> - you know you do not have any more knowledge than the hackers do, you need to take note of the word *Conceivably* used by some spokesman in that article. It makes a big difference in the meaning of his quote.


I know it's clean as of right now.  I don't dispute that I am merely stating it's possible. As I also said it doesn't bother me that they track my habit's if it did I would have dropped my TiVo when this all came about.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> I know it's clean as of right now.  I don't dispute that I am merely stating it's possible. As I also said it doesn't bother me that they track my habit's if it did I would have dropped my TiVo when this all came about.


With thousands of spyware variants that can install themselves in Windows, and malware now appearing on cell phones, clearly anything of this sort is possible. But if TiVo ever tries it, you can be sure we'll hear about it - in at least two thousand threads


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I think every single EULA for service I've read has a catch-all clause that states "oh, and by the way, we can terminate your service for whatever reason we choose" and "oh, and one last thing, we can change this as we wish, as long as we let you know".

Once again, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's a big deal when TiVo does what everyone else does.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I think every single EULA for service I've read has a catch-all clause that states "oh, and by the way, we can terminate your service for whatever reason we choose" and "oh, and one last thing, we can change this as we wish, as long as we let you know".
> 
> Once again, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's a big deal when TiVo does what everyone else does.


thunder points to MickeS

guess if it bothers someone they should give up all devices that use software.

NOTE also that TiVo still has to comply with any State and federal privacy laws no matter what. This whole thing is a big pile of FUD on the thread that obscured the OP's original question and topic.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I think every single EULA for service I've read has a catch-all clause that states "oh, and by the way, we can terminate your service for whatever reason we choose" and "oh, and one last thing, we can change this as we wish, as long as we let you know".
> 
> Once again, I'm not sure why everyone thinks it's a big deal when TiVo does what everyone else does.


One of my favorite sayings is this. "Just because it's always been done this way, or everyone does it, doesn't make it right."

Personally I don't like EULA's that are open ended like that. They should also have a clause that if you don't agree to the new terms the company must give you a full refund for your product or freeze it under the old EULA. I could release a product and charge 500.00 for it, then three months later change the EULA to state that 500.00 has to be paid annually as long I gave myself an out. This type thing leaves the same bad taste in my mouth that Apple left when they retroactively changed the number of burns you could get from a playlist. I haven't purchased anything from Apple since.


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## cdeckert219 (Jan 7, 2006)

Hey, Remotecontrol,

IMHO, TiVo for easy-to-use features.

I have a PC Tuner card with SnapStream's Beyond TV3. I love it. I paid for a lifetime sub (I think it was $69). I have burned tons of shows and movies to DVDs. I appreciate being able to cut out the commercials. I showed my wife how to use it. She never uses it... I don't let my kids touch my PC (learned that lesson years ago!). Unfortunately, I spent HUNDREDS of hours getting my hardware and software to work together smoothly. (Tried Roxio, it's garbage... tried ULEAD, you have to tweak it just right or system crashes... had problems with Nero... finally found InterVideo's WinDVD Creator and it works like a charm--no crashes, fast performance, easy to use.)

We also have a Humax DRT400 (Love it, too. So easy to burn DVDs...but I can't cut out the commercials) and a SA TiVo Series 2. My wife and kids use both extensively. I gave them each a 2 minute lesson and haven't answered a question since. It is soooo easy.

So, the TiVo is the system of choice in our house because it is so easy.

Hope that helps!


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> Personally I don't like EULA's that are open ended like that. They should also have a clause that if you don't agree to the new terms the company must give you a full refund for your product or freeze it under the old EULA.


I thought about that when I bought my lifetime service. It's a risk vs. reward thing. Since the payoff for lifetime (at that time) was 20 months, I had to take the risk that TiVo wouldn't make a disastrous change within that time. It seemed like a reasonably safe bet. After all they still needed customers and your comment about Apple shows there's a risk for them there. 70 months later it was clearly the right choice.

In can understand why you want a freeze or refund policy, but I can also see why a company wouldn't: multiple versions to support (theoretically everything since 1.x), unknown futures, plus the questions of what does it mean to get a refund on lifetime service that paid itself off 50 months ago anyway. So I think they just need to offer the terms and you need to decide if you like the risk. I don't think there would ever be a lifetime option if they had to include the protections you want.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Fixer said:


> The one cool thing about the TW box is that if it breaks, or if they upgrade to newer tech, you can just exchange the box. That's a pretty damn good incentive in my book. :up:


The Tivo/DTivos have more powerful incentives for the technically inclined:

With a Tivo-based box I can upgrade my storage capacity whenever I want. I can securely access any of the 3 DTivos in my house via the web to create a recording that I just found out about or forgot to set. I have multiroom viewing, I can get all sorts of web-based info (weather forecasts, streaming audio, movie theater times, play MP3s, etc. thanks to JavaHMO/Galleon). Using TivoWebPlus I can 'glue together' 4 half-hour shows and have them play as one to facilitate easy burning onto a DVD recorder.

Now, when will the TW be able to do any of the above?

My point is that a Tivo-based DVR (for me anyway) has advantages NOW that far outweigh the cableco DVRs 'advantages' that you cite, and _I am in control_ of my upgrades and new features, not the cableco.

Thanks to DirecTV clearing out their Tivo-based SD DVRs I obtained an additional one for shipping charges only - $15! If one of my DVRs conks out I'll just bring the $15 replacement online (after hacking it, of course). On the cost side, DirecTv's DVR fee of $4.99/mo. (new subs $5.99/mo) for any number of DVRs you have on your account is also a big plus to me.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Personally I don't like EULA's that are open ended like that. They should also have a clause that if you don't agree to the new terms the company must give you a full refund for your product or freeze it under the old EULA. I could release a product and charge 500.00 for it, then three months later change the EULA to state that 500.00 has to be paid annually as long I gave myself an out. This type thing leaves the same bad taste in my mouth that Apple left when they retroactively changed the number of burns you could get from a playlist. I haven't purchased anything from Apple since.


Ah, the good ole days. Kind of like the time Tivo Inc. stopped allowing customers to use the 800 number. And even if you were grandfathered in, the 1st time you had to rebuild the guide you lost the ability to use the 800 number any way. And then there was the time Tivo Inc. offered HMO for, IMO, a fairly large amount of money and then gave it away for free. Oh how about the time they changed the EULA so there could no dispute about how they would be providing advertisements to their customers. But hell what does it matter? Everybody does it these days... 

Y-ASK

Oh and I almost forgot the best one of all. During a software upgrade they took away the ability to manually record based on time and channel without the need of the sub.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> They also have a clause that states they can change things at any point they wish. So what stated policies mean nothing as they can be changed and all they have to do is send out a correspondence stating the new policy and have it available.


Um, if they have to notify you of changes then stated policies don't mean nothing. They mean they can't change the policy without telling you. Do you think that's atypical? From Verizon Wireless "privacy principles":

"These Principles are subject to change over time. We will revise and update these Principles if our practices change or if changes in the law require us to do so."

From Comcast's privacy policy:
"We may modify this notice at any time. We will notify you of any material changes through written, electronic, or other means as permitted by law. If you find the changes unacceptable, you have the right to cancel service. If you continue to use the service following notice of the changes, we will consider that to be your acceptance of and consent to the changes."

From AOL:
"The AOL Network may update this Privacy Policy from time to time, and so you should review this Policy periodically. If there are significant changes to the AOL Network's information practices, you will be provided with appropriate online notice."

From iTunes:
"Apple may update its privacy policy from time to time. When we change the policy in a material way a notice will be posted on our website along with the updated privacy policy."

Are you getting the idea? These were the first four service providers I looked at and EVERYBODY has that disclaimer. This is not part of some unique evil plot of Tivos to screw you. It gives them the flexibility to deal with changes. Sure, they _could_ all decide to go evil but as has been said repeatedly (and ignored repeatedly), the market limits what they can get away with. Mostly the changes are clarifications, to cover new services, etc.

Tivo is not a special case. If you can't accept Tivos wording as rational and reasonable, then at least devote equal fretting time and venom toward every other company you do business with. Either way results in fewer of you nutjobs complaining here, so I don't care which you choose.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

goony said:


> The Tivo/DTivos have more powerful incentives for the technically inclined:
> 
> With a Tivo-based box I can upgrade my storage capacity whenever I want. I can securely access any of the 3 DTivos in my house via the web to create a recording that I just found out about or forgot to set. I have multiroom viewing, I can get all sorts of web-based info (weather forecasts, streaming audio, movie theater times, play MP3s, etc. thanks to JavaHMO/Galleon). Using TivoWebPlus I can 'glue together' 4 half-hour shows and have them play as one to facilitate easy burning onto a DVD recorder.
> 
> ...


Not to pick bones but you aren't supposed to do either of those things (though on the newer SA TiVos some features are standard). Yes you do them and no one says anything but it goes against your TOS.

That said TiVo can be made to do some pretty cool things and I have 3 SAs and still can't seem to make myself part with my original Series 1 which I don't even use any longer.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Y-ASK said:


> Ah, the good ole days. Kind of like the time Tivo Inc. stopped allowing customers to use the 800 number.


Tivos coverage through local numbers had increased, and 800 numbers cost money. This wasn't about screwing customers, it was about trying to keep their heads above fiscal water. Tivo is not Microsoft.


> And then there was the time Tivo Inc. offered HMO for, IMO, a fairly large amount of money and then gave it away for free.


Oh I love that one. Damn how I hate when companies give away for free stuff they used to charge for. I _hate_ free stuff! Companies should never give anybody anything for less than I paid for it, ever!

Yeah I know. "What about the poor people who paid for it?" (I did, on two boxes). Again, this happens. Rebate programs start. Prices go down. Sometimes things that weren't free, get free. There will always be people who bought just a little too early to get the better deal, but I'd never heard so many people whine about it as I did here. It happens. DEAL WITH IT. If you're going to piss and moan that someone who waited got a better deal than you, then maybe you should just never buy anything ever, especially anything electronic.



> Oh how about the time they changed the EULA so there could no dispute about how they would be providing advertisements to their customers.


This I honestly don't know what you're referring to.



> Oh and I almost forgot the best one of all. During a software upgrade they took away the ability to manually record based on time and channel without the need of the sub.


Great scott, that was a mistake, it only affected series 1s that didn't come with 2.0 (2.0 models had already been out for some time and always required a sub anyway), they rectified it shortly afterward, and it was what, three years ago or more? Let it go.


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> Um, if they have to notify you of changes then stated policies don't mean nothing. They mean they can't change the policy without telling you. Do you think that's atypical? From Verizon Wireless "privacy principles":
> 
> "These Principles are subject to change over time. We will revise and update these Principles if our practices change or if changes in the law require us to do so."
> 
> ...


OK seriously you need to get off our soapbox. NEVER did I state that their terms where not reasonable nor that they where not the same as other companies, I simply stated that they can change when you stated they couldn't do such things. If you would like to make this a discussion of what is legal and what is not I would be more then happy to and am very much able to do so. I don't think there is some giant conspiracy to screw me or the general public and if I did I surely would not own 3 currently and also be looking at the Series 3 when it comes out (if my neighborhood has FiOS at that point and FiOS supports cable cards). You seem to want to attack people who's opinion differs from your's, I stated I was wrong about how the new *ads* will function as I must have read information that was incorrect at that point. The targeted ads never really bothered me nor does the fact that they use statistics from my TiVos so I am not sure what your issue seems to be.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

DrStrange said:


> Oh I love that one. Damn how I hate when companies give away for free stuff they used to charge for. I _hate_ free stuff! Companies should never give anybody anything for less than I paid for it, ever!


Yeah I guess there are real downsides for wanting a lifetime policy that never changes. If you bought lifetime when I did, and it never changed, there'd also be: no season pass manager, no wish lists, no padding, no parental controls, no star ratings, no Keep at most, no keep until I delete in season passes, etc.

I think I can survive those changes. They really seem to greatly outweigh anything that has changed for the worse.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

DrStrange said:


> Great scott, that was a mistake, it only affected series 1s that didn't come with 2.0 (2.0 models had already been out for some time and always required a sub anyway), they rectified it shortly afterward, and it was what, three years ago or more? Let it go.


You're right about most of what you wrote and I was trying to be more of a old timer smart ass . But here I think you are wrong about it being a mistake. I think it was a later version of 2.0 that cause all the humb bumb but it was not a mistake. They got so much grief because they did not change their EULA before they made the change that they had to change it back and then state anything after such and such version that was shipped would not have the manual recording function without a sub. I think they based it on serial number of the unit as well.

Any way my point was that Tivo Inc. has made a few changes to their EULA over the years and not once has it been in favor of the customer. But I love my Tivos and have not found an equal alternative so I continue to live with everything Tivo Inc. decides to do. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Y-ASK


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Y-ASK said:


> But here I think you are wrong about it being a mistake. I think it was a later version of 2.0 that cause all the humb bumb but it was not a mistake. They got so much grief because they did not change their EULA before they made the change that they had to change it back and then state anything after such and such version that was shipped would not have the manual recording function without a sub. I think they based it on serial number of the unit as well.


My S1 says on the box that a sub is required but it's one of the ones that can run without a sub. Is that also not a mistake? 

In any event, you're describing either a technical mistake or a policy mistake which was quite quickly corrected a long time ago.


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Kanyon71 said:


> I simply stated that they can change when you stated they couldn't do such things.


Nowhere do I see that I said Tivo couldn't change their privacy policy that wasn't qualified with "without notification" or some other modifier. I think that in itself makes it clear I know they can change the policy. This seems to be the part you had a problem with.


DrStrange said:


> Yes, as has been pointed out they have the technical ability to do lots of things. However their legally binding stated policies and market considerations limit what they can actually do


It doesn't say Tivo can't change their policy. It's meant to say they can't do things that are prohibited by the current policy, and changes to the policy are *limited* by what the market will accept. If you didn't quite get that I'm sorry, but it very clearly does *not* say "Tivo can't change their policy" in any way that reminding me of the change clause refutes.

Since I know full well they can change their policy and never said otherwise, your repeated reminders of that fact just looked like the typical tinfoil-hat paranoid mantra. Claiming that the policy "means nothing" didn't do anything to correct my perception either.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

dgh said:


> My S1 says on the box that a sub is required but it's one of the ones that can run without a sub. Is that also not a mistake?
> 
> In any event, you're describing either a technical mistake or a policy mistake which was quite quickly corrected a long time ago.


At that time the mistake was to make the change in the 1st place. I mean if you're paying $399.00 for a 40 Hrs unit and you decide not to Sub it any more you damn sure better be able to manually record by time and channel. Today it's not an issue and doesn't really matter so I see your point and agree to "Let it go".

Y-ASK


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## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Y-ASK said:


> But here I think you are wrong about it being a mistake. I think it was a later version of 2.0 that cause all the humb bumb but it was not a mistake.


That they releases _an_ update wasn't a mistake, that that update killed the older S1s ability to record without a sub was. I can't find the thread in the archives so either my search missed it or (very likely) it happened before 2004 and was lost in David Botts great "oops" archiving. It might have been long enough ago that Tivolutionary was the one who did the apologizing.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Y-ASK said:


> I mean if you're paying $399.00 for a 40 Hrs unit and you decide not to Sub it any more you damn sure better be able to manually record by time and channel.


TiVo Inc. was still paying a subsidy to Sony and Philips for every one sold at that price. (Sony was also selling non-TiVo service-less, guide-less DVRs at $1999 at that time.)

I think the real mistake was not realizing how many people were going to use them for security DVRs, sports/coaching tools etc. They ASSumed all customers would be TV watchers and almost all would fall under the spell of the service.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Yeah it was a very long time ago but I don't remember there being a subsidy to Sony and Phillips. I thought that there was a little hardware profit in there for the manufacture but I'm probably wrong. It was way before the forum archive problem. It's too bad that it came some what under powered CPU wise. I mean the encoder chip is awesome and I can tell the difference in quality between my S1 and my S2.

Y-ASK


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## Kanyon71 (Feb 13, 2003)

DrStrange said:


> Nowhere do I see that I said Tivo couldn't change their privacy policy that wasn't qualified with "without notification" or some other modifier. I think that in itself makes it clear I know they can change the policy. This seems to be the part you had a problem with.
> 
> It doesn't say Tivo can't change their policy. It's meant to say they can't do things that are prohibited by the current policy, and changes to the policy are *limited* by what the market will accept. If you didn't quite get that I'm sorry, but it very clearly does *not* say "Tivo can't change their policy" in any way that reminding me of the change clause refutes.
> 
> Since I know full well they can change their policy and never said otherwise, your repeated reminders of that fact just looked like the typical tinfoil-hat paranoid mantra. Claiming that the policy "means nothing" didn't do anything to correct my perception either.


Well it was a misunderstanding on both parts, I read what you said and took it to more extremes, you read what I said and did the same. I was just saying that if they want to do something (within reason) they are within their legal rights to do so by modifying the policy. Nothing more nothing less, never thought they where out to get me never will think so. They aren't going to do something too extreme as it would cost them by affecting their customer base which as we all know is the life blood of the company. Now that we understand each other let's call it an end and not argue about this any longer.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Y-ASK said:


> Yeah it was a very long time ago but I don't remember there being a subsidy to Sony and Phillips. I thought that there was a little hardware profit in there for the manufacture but I'm probably wrong.


Somewhere I have a WSJ article clipped from 98 or 99 that says TiVo subsidized them from the start. One of the design goals of the S2 was to be cheaper to manufacture so the subsidies could be reduced. But then TiVo has pretty much continued to subsidize them to the point of today's $20 or even negative after rebate deals.

From the start, TiVo thought that the business was the service. They needed lots of subs for sub revenue and to be attractive to advertisers, so they planned to pay people to sell the boxes right from the start. (Actually I think the WSJ article says something like: the trick was to convince people to lose money making the boxes so TiVo could make money on the service and when that didn't sell, they paid them.)


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dgh said:


> I thought about that when I bought my lifetime service. It's a risk vs. reward thing. Since the payoff for lifetime (at that time) was 20 months, I had to take the risk that TiVo wouldn't make a disastrous change within that time. It seemed like a reasonably safe bet. After all they still needed customers and your comment about Apple shows there's a risk for them there. 70 months later it was clearly the right choice.
> 
> In can understand why you want a freeze or refund policy, but I can also see why a company wouldn't: multiple versions to support (theoretically everything since 1.x), unknown futures, plus the questions of what does it mean to get a refund on lifetime service that paid itself off 50 months ago anyway. So I think they just need to offer the terms and you need to decide if you like the risk. I don't think there would ever be a lifetime option if they had to include the protections you want.


I think that in most cases no one, not me at least, would want a refund on services paid for and received. Refunds on monthly subs/used lifetime, if you were to prorate it. No, I was talking about the cost of the hardware alone. Having said that however, I doubt TiVo would stay in business if they were held to that type of commitment, but to me anytime one side reserves the right to change the terms of a contract it seems a little one sided.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Ah, the good ole days. Kind of like the time Tivo Inc. stopped allowing customers to use the 800 number. And even if you were grandfathered in, the 1st time you had to rebuild the guide you lost the ability to use the 800 number any way. And then there was the time Tivo Inc. offered HMO for, IMO, a fairly large amount of money and then gave it away for free. Oh how about the time they changed the EULA so there could no dispute about how they would be providing advertisements to their customers. But hell what does it matter? Everybody does it these days...
> 
> Y-ASK
> 
> Oh and I almost forgot the best one of all. During a software upgrade they took away the ability to manually record based on time and channel without the need of the sub.


I'm fortunate/lucky to have come on board after all of that and hope that type of thing doesn't happen again.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

My brain hurts after reading these last few posts. I'm not sure anyone even has a point. The only thing I learned is people like to sound real smart even though they are doing nothing to help the OP.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> No, I was talking about the cost of the hardware alone.


That didn't occur to me. Trouble is, my hardware says Sony on it (which means TiVo already paid Sony to sell it to me cheap), and new hardware can be had for $20 so it's becoming a very small issue. If there ever were such a clause, it would probably have a depreciation clause which means you'd probably get a better price on ebay anyway


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dgh said:


> That didn't occur to me. Trouble is, my hardware says Sony on it (which means TiVo already paid Sony to sell it to me cheap), and new hardware can be had for $20 so it's becoming a very small issue. If there ever were such a clause, it would probably have a depreciation clause which means you'd probably get a better price on ebay anyway


I agree. Still though its a bitter pill when the EULA is changed and you get screwed. It's one thing to give more things for free, it's entirely another to take things away. ie, The aforementioned case with Apple, and possibly the issue with the macrovision broadcast flag thing if it ever sees any daylight.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Ah, the good ole days. Kind of like the time Tivo Inc. stopped allowing customers to use the 800 number. And even if you were grandfathered in, the 1st time you had to rebuild the guide you lost the ability to use the 800 number any way. And then there was the time Tivo Inc. offered HMO for, IMO, a fairly large amount of money and then gave it away for free. Oh how about the time they changed the EULA so there could no dispute about how they would be providing advertisements to their customers. But hell what does it matter? Everybody does it these days...
> 
> Y-ASK


 local number vs an 800 number - not much hassle and no extra cost to the customer. The only rare cases of no local number are out in the middle of nowhere. Also the switch to allowing access through broadband happened that led to many great new features with still more to come.
Gave away HMO for free, which meant Desktop was also free. Yah that was a real bad change for the customer  I complained but only because TiVo most likely knew HMO was going free when I bought it for one of my TiVo DVRs. There is the modicum of truth to all this that TiVo is a corporation charged by stakeholders to protect and do what is best for TiVo - but the other half of that truth that what is best for TiVo is to get more subscribers so they will do the horrible thing of making HMO free.
The advertising is the other modicum of truth here - but also true and proven by the very very slow growth of advertising on TiVo - they need more subscribers and can not do things that will drive subscribers away in significant numbers.


> Oh and I almost forgot the best one of all. During a software upgrade they took away the ability to manually record based on time and channel without the need of the sub.


so the best you can remember is that they changed the manual recording policy when TiVo realized it could not be in the hardware for a profit business but needed people to subscribe.
And what did TiVo do when subscribers made their displeasure known ?
They in effect froze the EULA for those that bought before the change by giving them a fix to keep them at the software level that did manual recording and to this day you can buy and sell those TiVo DVRs and they still work just fine as is

so yes the EULA is like all others in that TiVo reserves the right to change but their focus is to increase the subscriber base and that is good for the subscribers.

Can anyone say their TiVo and EULA has lost value to them or increased in value to them ? Sine I regularly use MRV and TTG mine have all increased in value to me adn I have not had to modify them to get that extra value


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

rainwater said:


> The only thing I learned is people like to sound real smart even though they are doing nothing to help the OP.


Well, the OP will have to glean what they can... the gist is: "Having a Tivo-based DVR solution has tremendous advantages compared to other recording solutions- it's worth the money."

I'm surprised that this uber-informed BB (this is the store that features the 'Geek Squad', right?) employee didn't mention getting a VCR instead of a DVR or PC capture card; those are even lower cost these days.

Another aspect that a young pup employee may not understand is that many people want something that just works well, reliably and doesn't eat up your time. Will you spend more time fussing with it to get it to work or just simply using it? Kids have more time for that kind of messing around, also busy people with disposable incomes are willing to pay for conveniences like Tivo.

Example: I'm a techno type, and I came to the conclusion long ago that (for me) a standalone DVD recorder was a better choice that networked transfers of shows from my DVR to a PC for buring to DVD. Yes, the network transfer makes _slightly better_ recordings, but I found it's usually not worth the hassle; with the DVD recorder I hit a few buttons and go do something else and I'm not tied to a PC doing a lot of steps.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Can anyone say their TiVo and EULA has lost value to them or increased in value to them?


I wholeheartedly believe that my TiVo has gained value since I acquired my first one a little over two years ago. I, like you, like the MRV and HMO features. I like it that I can upgrade the box myself, and burn shows to DVD(If I ever get MyDVD to work.) My only reservation that sits hovering in the background is the macrovision update TiVo installed this past year. The fact that they aren't doing anything with it now is to me just another corporate tactic to let the furor die down until they can implement it. My own hope is that they'll try to implement with the S3 and not force this on S2 users, but if I had my own druthers it wouldn't be anywhere.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

> My only reservation that sits hovering in the background is the macrovision update TiVo installed this past year.


I don't think they had any choice in the matter, per the Macrovision licensing agreement. IIRC, that is. But I agree with you.


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## dgh (Jul 24, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> My only reservation that sits hovering in the background is the macrovision update TiVo installed this past year. The fact that they aren't doing anything with it now is to me just another corporate tactic to let the furor die down until they can implement it. My own hope is that they'll try to implement with the S3 and not force this on S2 users, but if I had my own druthers it wouldn't be anywhere.


I'm totally lost, starting with who is "they" in the above text. It seems like it must be the PPV content owners but later it sounds like it's TiVo. But I thought TiVo already put macrovision handling into the S2 (both the flags and the older form which has been in since the original TiVos.)

As for your druthers, I understand that, but I also saw a poll in the Happy Hour yesterday where less than 60% selected "I never burn copies of rental DVDs" so - sadly - I can see where the content owners are getting their druthers too.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dgh said:


> I'm totally lost, starting with who is "they" in the above text. It seems like it must be the PPV content owners but later it sounds like it's TiVo. But I thought TiVo already put macrovision handling into the S2 (both the flags and the older form which has been in since the original TiVos.)
> 
> As for your druthers, I understand that, but I also saw a poll in the Happy Hour yesterday where less than 60% selected "I never burn copies of rental DVDs" so - sadly - I can see where the content owners are getting their druthers too.


They, is TiVo.  I get carried away sometimes when I post.

Burning rental DVD's is to me only a last resort option and something I've done only once just as a proof of concept that I could do it. DVD's are way too cheap and offer entirely too many cool features to justify not buying them. If I want to see a DVD, I buy it, or if a friend has it I'll borrow his, but copy it? It's not worth my time, even if it is easy to do.


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