# Game of Thrones 5/4/2014 "First of His Name". (Spoilers, duh)



## Demandred (Mar 6, 2001)

Loved Margery once again. She made Cersei think it was her idea that she and Tommen marry. Maybe Cersei sees through it but maybe not.

I thought the most interesting part was Lysa telling us that Littlefinger's ordered Jon Arryn's death. Why? And why did Lysa go along with it. 

Also, poor Sansa. Poor, poor Sansa. I hope something.good happens to her.

From the previews last week I expected the scene at Craster's to take up the majority of the episode, and it did. Glad Jon has Ghost back, and glad that Locke is out of the picture.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Demandred said:


> I thought the most interesting part was Lysa telling us that Littlefinger's ordered Jon Arryn's death. Why? And why did Lysa go along with it.


That was an interesting revelation.

It seems that Petyr intended for Ned to find out about Jaime and Cersei. The question is, did they ask him to take care of Jon Arryn and he simply took advantange of that, or did he set up the whole thing to get Ned down there in order to reveal what he and others knew, but did not want to risk saying themselves?

I'm still sticking by my view that Tywin was part of the plot to kill Joffrey, but now give credit to Petyr for being much bolder than I had previously thought. If Jaime and Cersei had nothing to do with Jon Arryn's death, then Petyr has been playing a long game to undermine the authority of the Lannisters. Has he been working with the Tyrells the whole time, or are they also pawns in his game?

If Tywin was not part of the plot to kill Joffrey (or maybe even if he was), all Petyr would have to do is set things up so that people would find out about Olenna (in such a way as to not implicate him as involved or as the betrayer), and he could start a war between the Lannisters and Tyrells.

The fact that he saved Sansa might indicate that he doesn't think she will be thought guilty for long.

I think Lysa went along with the plan because she was madly in love with Petyr, literally. I'm fairly certain he has no feelings for her. But what is his plan for her?

I suppose if he could get the Lannisters, Tyrells, and Baratheons to fight each other, and convince Lysa to send men to the Freys to avenge Catelyn's death, perhaps that might open a path for him to be king. Is that his ultimate plan, to weaken all the families in Westeros to the point where the Arryns could seize the throne virtually unchallenged?

Have fun with that Petyr, as all you are doing is preparing the way for zombies and dragons.

Or does he work for the Iron Bank of Braavos, and this is Westeros' punishment for not paying their debts?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So Cersei wants to team up with Margaery so they can manipulate Tommen together. Unfortunately for each of them, they're both smarter than the other one thinks, and they'll both think they're getting one over on the other. That can't end well.

I have no idea what Baelish's plan is, but he's clearly been working at it for a long time, and he's several steps ahead of everyone else. Lysa is just another pawn in his game of chess.

Why did Arya add The Hound's name to her list? Because he stole silver from that farmer?

Podrick may have been loyal to Tyrion, but he never really learned how to be a squire. That was pretty comical watching him try to ride a horse and cook a rabbit with the fur still on. But it appears Brienne may have use for him yet.

I was surprised at how easily Locke was killed. Seemed like they were setting up something longer term with him, and then he's just gone. What was his plan to get Bran and the others out of there without Jon and the rest of the Crows finding out?

Did Jon say that Mance Rayder's signal to the wildlings south of the wall would be a huge bonfire? As they were standing there watching Craster's Keep burn, I wondered if Ygritte and the others would mistake this fire for the signal.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> So Cersei wants to team up with Margaery so they can manipulate Tommen together. Unfortunately for each of them, they're both smarter than the other one thinks, and they'll both think they're getting one over on the other.


I don't think Cersei is smarter than anyone thinks. Even when she is not letting her emotions get the better of her, she is just not very smart.



DevdogAZ said:


> Why did Arya add The Hound's name to her list?


I think the Hound has been on her list since the first season, when he killed her friend Mycah.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> I don't think Cersei is smarter than anyone thinks. Even when she is not letting her emotions get the better of her, she is just not very smart.


Smart may not be the right word, but she's definitely good at scheming and manipulation. And Margaery is being taught those skills by Lady Olenna, who appears to be one of the best. So they'll form an alliance, but I predict it will end badly once one or both of them realize what the other is up to.



john4200 said:


> I think the Hound has been on her list since the first season, when he killed her friend Mycah.


Could be. But they've been together for months and she's been saying the names every night before sleep. Why then did he look so surprised when she said his name?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

I found it very interesting that the Lannisters have not had a working gold mine for 3 years.

Always pay their debts indeed...

Poor Sansa, her aunt wants her to marry that rotten little boy.

"Thanks for the present, let me throw it out this hole in the floor" LOL


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

zordude said:


> "Thanks for the present, let me throw it out this hole in the floor" LOL


Well, it WAS a bird....fly birdy!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Could be. But they've been together for months and she's been saying the names every night before sleep. Why then did he look so surprised when she said his name?


I thought that was strange as well. The Hound was always on her list. This conversation made it sound as if this was the first night they slept together!

Jaime and Cersei discussed their plot to kill Jon in the first or second episode of the show. So Now we just know who did their bidding for them (they asked Littlefinger to do it and he used Jon's wife to deliver the poison). Jaime and Cersei are still guilty of the murder, this was not a reveal that they were not guilty.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Could it be that Sansa is Petyr's daughter? And that is why he has always cared for her?

Too bad Jaimie won't get to avenge his hand "taker".

Why did Lysa reveal so much to Sansa, kinda dumb. Also dumb to trust her brat to keep the secret.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Sansa can't catch a break. Going from one nut case's household to another with two nut cases in it. I hated her early in the series. Now I feel bad for her.

I'm surprised the Hound didn't ask Arya why he was on the list.

Tywin would make an awesome radio dj with that voice.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm surprised the Hound didn't ask Arya why he was on the list.


Well, he already said he was in a hurry to get to sleep...


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> Could it be that Sansa is Petyr's daughter? And that is why he has always cared for her?


No way Sansa is Peytr's daughter; that would mean Peytr and Catelyn had an affair... never would happen. Peytr's entire being seems formed by his bitterness that Catelyn didn't love him. And Lysa has done everything she's done because she is, as said above, utterly mad for Peytr. She's not so far gone that she doesn't realize that Peytr is all about Catelyn though, which is probably why she's so vindictive with Sansa.



gossamer88 said:


> Why did Lysa reveal so much to Sansa, kinda dumb. Also dumb to trust her brat to keep the secret.


I agree with this... and even when Lysa was alone with Peytr and discussing Jon Arryn's murder you can see him get _really_ nervous and shut her up by kissing her, then telling her, basically, never say anything about that ever again. He seemed worried that she was too unbalanced to be able to keep these terrible secrets.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

What I love about GoT is what happened with Locke. Here is the big bad guy and you expect a long story arc with him and poof, he's gone. In any other show, this guy would have been around and scheming for a long time, escaping detection and death by a second here and there.

I'm not sure why Bran didn't use Hodor (Hodor!) to cut his ropes before letting go of his mind.

I was really hoping Bran would try to enter Locke or Karl's mind. Successful or not, I would like to know the limit of his abilities. I'm surprised Bran has not tried.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So Hodor was just too stupid to break the chains on his own? It's not like Bran gave him extra strength.

That little psychotic mothersucker doesn't make much better material for Sansa's husband than Joffrey. Poor girl.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> What I love about GoT is what happened with Locke. Here is the big bad guy and you expect a long story arc with him and poof **crack/snap**, he's gone.


Hodor


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm very disappointed that the title sequence did not show the Eyrie (did I spell that right?). 

They always show King's Landing, Winterfell, and The Wall...the other places are shown as needed. So why did we not see the Eyrie?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

BitbyBlit said:


> That was an interesting revelation.
> 
> It seems that Petyr intended for Ned to find out about Jaime and Cersei. The question is, did they ask him to take care of Jon Arryn and he simply took advantange of that, or did he set up the whole thing to get Ned down there in order to reveal what he and others knew, but did not want to risk saying themselves?


Petyr uses chaos to advance his position. His goals with his plans are not specific to moving every piece to a certain spot (for instance, Joffrey killing Ned was all Joffrey, but Petyr turned it to his advantage anyway) he just sets the stage for **** to go down. Then he waits and climbs the ladder, as he once said.



BitbyBlit said:


> Is that his ultimate plan, to weaken all the families in Westeros to the point where the Arryns could seize the throne virtually unchallenged?
> 
> Have fun with that Petyr, as all you are doing is preparing the way for zombies and dragons.


And remember, Varys said Petyr would see the entire kingdom burn if he could be king of the ashes. Varys is the only one who realizes how dangerous Baelish is.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Did Jon say that Mance Rayder's signal to the wildlings south of the wall would be a huge bonfire? As they were standing there watching Craster's Keep burn, I wondered if Ygritte and the others would mistake this fire for the signal.


I seem to remember that Craster's place is about 60 miles away from The Wall. It's a small place to begin with. I doubt anyone would see it from that far, or mistake it for a large enough fire that there is no mistaking it's the signal (as Mance had said).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

How easy/hard is it to stab an upright man through the back of the skull?

I know nothing of military tactics but it seems like it would make more sense to attack the mutineers at dawn when everybody's asleep or hung over instead of at nightfall when everybody's still awake, drunk and rapey, but awake.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I thought that was strange as well. The Hound was always on her list. This conversation made it sound as if this was the first night they slept together!


The only thing that makes sense to me is that this was the first time Arya felt comfortable saying the names loud enough for The Hound to hear, and thus be bothered by it.

Or, after he stole the silver, maybe she was pissed off at him enough that she said the names so he would know that he was on her list. Good thing he doesn't take her seriously as a threat, and cares more about her ransom than anything else.



Anubys said:


> Jaime and Cersei discussed their plot to kill Jon in the first or second episode of the show.


Are you sure about that?

The only times I remember Jon's murder being discussed were when Ned and Catelyn received the letter from Lysa (which we now know was a lie), when Ned confronted Pycelle about the medicine he had given Jon (which we now know was benign), and when Ned told Cersei that he knew why Jon had died when he confronted her about what he had found out about Jaime.

Everything that we knew about Jon's murder until this episode was from Ned's point of view.

We know that Jaime and Cersei knew what Jon had found out. And given this episode plus the fact that Petyr was tailing Jon, it is most likely Petyr who let them know either directly or indirectly. But it's possible that they just thought they had lucked out by Jon dying when he did or they each assumed the other had taken care of it.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Wow! Lots of info in that episode. 
Littlefinger and the Arryns --creepy. 
No more gold in Casterly Rock. Does the Iron Bank of Bravos know this? 
I can't believe that telling Robin Sansa's real identity is going to work out well. 
Brianne is heading to Castle Black to find Sansa? I know the Eyrie is substantial detour, but wouldn't checking there make some sense?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> How easy/hard is it to stab an upright man through the back of the skull?


Probably Valyrian steel makes it easier...


cheesesteak said:


> I know nothing of military tactics but it seems like it would make more sense to attack the mutineers at dawn when everybody's asleep or hung over instead of at nightfall when everybody's still awake, drunk and rapey, but awake.


Or at the very least, slip into camp instead of charging en masse screaming like banshees...with everybody all drunk and rapey, you could probably slit a lot of throats before the alarm went up.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I know nothing of military tactics but it seems like it would make more sense to attack the mutineers at dawn when everybody's asleep or hung over instead of at nightfall when everybody's still awake, drunk and rapey, but awake.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or at the very least, slip into camp instead of charging en masse screaming like banshees...with everybody all drunk and rapey, you could probably slit a lot of throats before the alarm went up.


One of Jon's lieutenants said "New Moon Tonight", which means they would have the cover of darkness, also they will probably catch at least some of the mutineers "with their pants down" (literally!)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> The only times I remember Jon's murder being discussed were when Ned and Catelyn received the letter from Lysa (which we now know was a lie), when Ned confronted Pycelle about the medicine he had given Jon (which we now know was benign), and when Ned told Cersei that he knew why Jon had died when he confronted her about what he had found out about Jaime.
> 
> ...


Moderately sure. You're forgetting a scene during Jon's funeral (when he also had those creepy eyes made of stone over his eyes) where Jaime and Cersei were standing in the wings out of earshot and discussed how it was unfortunate that they had to kill him but that it was necessary to cover up their secret.

Moderately sure because there is the possibility that this was how the conversation was interpreted at the time. But I recall them being very straightforward about it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

tiassa said:


> One of Jon's lieutenants said "New Moon Tonight", which means they would have the cover of darkness, also they will probably catch at least some of the mutineers "with their pants down" (literally!)


It was a terrible ambush. They lost 5 or 6 from their side when they ambushed 11 drunk men!

You know nothing about sneak attacks, Jon Snow.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

tiassa said:


> .
> Brianne is heading to Castle Black to find Sansa? I know the Eyrie is substantial detour, but wouldn't checking there make some sense?


I think Littlefingers talk about getting to the gate is well known and probably why Brianne does not want to mess with that unless she has to. Especially someone sent by Jamie Lannister. Check Castle Black first is a good plan.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Here's EW's review of episode 1, season 1 about the scene between Jaime and Cersei



> The Hand of the King, Jon Arryn, lies dead. We meet two crucial characters: Jamie Lannister, an infamous knight of the Kingsguard (a sort of Secret Service for the king) and his cunning sister, Cersei, the queen of Westeros.
> 
> Like many scenes in this episode, people address each other by pointing out their relationships ("As your brother" etc). It's not the most natural way to speak, but it gets the job done -- we got millions of viewers to education about this fantasy kingdom, dammit. We quickly realize these two are shady, that Arryn died before he could spill some terrible secret. "If he told the king, both our heads would be skewered on the city gates by now," Jamie says lazily. Hmm.


So I really do think that they ran to LF for help and LF used Lysa as his assassin.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

There was also a conversation way back in Season One between Varys and Illyrio in the depths of the Red Keep that Arya overheard while hiding in the skull of a dragon that went something along the lines of "One hand had to die already, do we have to kill another?" (I don't remember exactly).


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> It was a terrible ambush. They lost 5 or 6 from their side when they ambushed 11 drunk men!
> 
> You know nothing about sneak attacks, Jon Snow.


Well Bramdor killed one of them, so you could reduce the bad guy count by one 

PS: and yes I am now refering to Hodor under Bram's control as Bramdor,lol


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> What I love about GoT is what happened with Locke. Here is the big bad guy and you expect a long story arc with him and poof, he's gone. In any other show, this guy would have been around and scheming for a long time, escaping detection and death by a second here and there. I'm not sure why Bran didn't use Hodor (Hodor!) to cut his ropes before letting go of his mind. I was really hoping Bran would try to enter Locke or Karl's mind. Successful or not, I would like to know the limit of his abilities. I'm surprised Bran has not tried.


I think the only reason Bran can warg into Hodor's mind is because Hodor is a simpleton, and his mind isn't much more advanced than the animals that wargs traditionally use. I don't think it would work for Bran to try and warg into the mind of a human of average intelligence.



mwhip said:


> I think Littlefingers talk about getting to the gate is well known and probably why Brianne does not want to mess with that unless she has to. Especially someone sent by Jamie Lannister. Check Castle Black first is a good plan.


Except that from a geographical standpoint, that's like going from New York to LA and not making the slight detour to check something in Detroit. Brienne doesn't need to try and attack the Eyrie. She just needs to approach the gates and ask to be admitted. They may say no, but that's better than going 1,000 in the wrong direction and back without at least checking first.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Moderately sure. You're forgetting a scene during Jon's funeral (when he also had those creepy eyes made of stone over his eyes) where Jaime and Cersei were standing in the wings out of earshot and discussed how it was unfortunate that they had to kill him but that it was necessary to cover up their secret.


Actually, re-watching that scene makes me more certain that this was all Petyr.

This is how that conversation went:



> Jaime: As your brother, I feel it's my duty to warn you. You worry to much, and it's starting to show.
> 
> Cersei: And you never worry about anything. When we were seven...
> 
> ...


They seemed mortified about the possibility of anyone finding out their secret. I don't think they would have abided anyone else knowing about them, including Petyr.

In fact, now I'm not even certain about who targeted Bran. Petyr might have been the one who stole his own old dagger from Tyrion knowing that not only would Tyrion be implicated, but that he would have a plausible reason for pointing them in Tyrion's direction.

Jaime and Cersei might have both simply hoped that Bran would end up dying, and not wanted to risk doing anything that might lead back to them. But Petyr, wanting a rift between the Starks and Lannisters, might have been worried about just that happening. He needed something that would point to the Lannisters if Bran couldn't, and thus set up the attack.

It certainly makes more sense now why Tyrion's dagger was used. I always thought it was strange that Jamie or Cersei would have used Tyrion's dagger. As much as Cersei might have hated Tyrion, using his dagger tied Bran's injuries too closely to their family for what I thought would have been her comfort.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except that from a geographical standpoint, that's like going from New York to LA and not making the slight detour to check something in Detroit.


More like Philadelphia. Yeah, if the Eyrie is even a slight possibility it would be insane not to check it out on the way.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think the only reason Bran can warg into Hodor's mind is because Hodor is a simpleton, and his mind isn't much more advanced than the animals that wargs traditionally use. I don't think it would work for Bran to try and warg into the mind of a human of average intelligence.


Oh, I totally agree with you. But wouldn't you try it to find out (if you were Bran)?

I know I would!


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

ihatecable said:


> Well Bramdor killed one of them, so you could reduce the bad guy count by one
> 
> PS: and yes I am now refering to Hodor under Bram's control as Bramdor,lol


Shouldnt it be Brandor?


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I think Lysa went along with the plan because she was madly in love with Petyr, literally. I'm fairly certain he has no feelings for her. But what is his plan for her?


Marrying her makes him a noble, right? If that sticks to him when she dies, then he doesn't need her. Also he'll want an heir and she's to old to provide one. Lysa and her son go flying.



DevdogAZ said:


> Podrick may have been loyal to Tyrion, but he never really learned how to be a squire. That was pretty comical watching him try to ride a horse and cook a rabbit with the fur still on. But it appears Brienne may have use for him yet.


Podrick had a special skill that surprised Tyrion. I wonder if that will someday surprise Brienne? 



DevdogAZ said:


> Smart may not be the right word, but she's definitely good at scheming and manipulation. And Margaery is being taught those skills by Lady Olenna, who appears to be one of the best. So they'll form an alliance, but I predict it will end badly once one or both of them realize what the other is up to.


I doubt if either one is fooling the other. No way Cersei believed M saying that marrying Tommen hadn't occurred to her!

Cersei was too nice all episode. Nice with Margaery. Nice discussing her upcoming marriage with her father. Either something's brewing or the loss of Joffrey (and the Jaime thing) broke her.



cheesesteak said:


> How easy/hard is it to stab an upright man through the back of the skull?


It was a nice surprise visual, but the angle was bad. The victim was looking down and Jon had to reach high just to pull his sword _out_ while the body was _collapsing_. He would've had to jump or stand on something to make that strike.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Anubys said:


> Oh, I totally agree with you. But wouldn't you try it to find out (if you were Bran)


I suspect that Bran's experience probably tempers his enthusiasm, if for example warging into a bird is a "1" degree of difficulty, a wolf is a "3" and Hodor is an "8" or "9", he may realize that trying to Warg a normal person would be "Bad" (as in "time stopping and every molecule of your body exploding outward at the speed of light" bad)



DUDE_NJX said:


> So Hodor was just too stupid to break the chains on his own? It's not like Bran gave him extra strength.


But he got Brandor to start rocking against the chains, which casued them to break free from the wall, which Hodor probably couldn't figure out.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tlc said:


> Marrying her makes him a noble, right? If that sticks to him when she dies, then he doesn't need her.


Not really. Marrying, in practical terms, gets you married to a noble. And it gets you noble children. But your fortunes are entirely linked to your spouse & kids. Without them, you're nothing, or at best, you are what you were before.

Which is why Margaery is so eager to marry herself another king...the last one didn't "stick." (Neither did the first one, but he really doesn't count, never having been formally invested.)


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not really. Marrying, in practical terms, gets you married to a noble. And it gets you noble children. But your fortunes are entirely linked to your spouse & kids. Without them, you're nothing, or at best, you are what you were before.
> 
> Which is why Margaery is so eager to marry herself another king...the last one didn't "stick." (Neither did the first one, but he really doesn't count, never having been formally invested.)


Good point.

But spending your life with Lysa and her son are a pretty high price for having a title and a castle (stronghold? holdfast?). There must be a longer term plan. Perhaps he hopes to bring things around to where Sansa can come out of hiding and he can marry her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tlc said:


> But spending your life with Lysa and her son are a pretty high price for having a title and a castle (stronghold? holdfast?). There must be a longer term plan. Perhaps he hopes to bring things around to where Sansa can come out of hiding and he can marry her.


Probably his plan is to manipulate the power that comes from being able to manipulate Lysa to his own advantage. Which is basically what he's done all along...achieve whatever power he can, and then leverage it to his benefit. By marrying the widow of one quasi-king and the mother of another, he has considerably increased his possibilities.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

gossamer88 said:


> Could it be that Sansa is Petyr's daughter? And that is why he has always cared for her?
> 
> Why did Lysa reveal so much to Sansa, kinda dumb. Also dumb to trust her brat to keep the secret.


It would probably be best for her if she were Petyr's daughter. They don't sleep with their children in Westeros, do they?

What did Lysa reveal to Sansa? Other than the obvious, that she's crazy about Petyr and jealous of Sansa.



cheesesteak said:


> Sansa can't catch a break. Going from one nut case's household to another with two nut cases in it. I hated her early in the series. Now I feel bad for her.
> .


I do feel bad for Sansa, but she's in a lot better shape than poor Arya. Of course Arya is able to take care of herself. Sansa needs to toughen up.

Lysa is in charge in the Eyrie now since Robert is under age, but the power really goes with him, not her. If Sansa could learn to control him when she marries him (yuck  ) she could run things--and he already seems to really like Petyr.

So it's very likely that Petyr is throwing one trap after the other at Tyrion. He almost went flying when his dagger was used on Bran, and now he's wanted for murder, thanks to Petyr. Does he see Tyrion as the most threatening of the Lannisters? The guy most likely to see through his plans?


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I liked it when we called him Littlefinger (or Baelish)! I don't like this Petyr thing....LOL


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Probably his plan is to manipulate the power that comes from being able to manipulate Lysa to his own advantage. Which is basically what he's done all along...achieve whatever power he can, and then leverage it to his benefit. By marrying the widow of one quasi-king and the mother of another, he has considerably increased his possibilities.


Yes, but is all of that potential power worth the headache of being married to that loon? It was obvious he was just humoring her when he said they could get married, but then he didn't expect her to have the clergy and witness waiting outside the door. Lysa must really provide some kind of significant strategic advantage, as putting up with her would be more than just challenging.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> Marrying her makes him a noble, right? If that sticks to him when she dies, then he doesn't need her. Also he'll want an heir and she's to old to provide one. Lysa and her son go flying.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not really. Marrying, in practical terms, gets you married to a noble. And it gets you noble children. But your fortunes are entirely linked to your spouse & kids. Without them, you're nothing, or at best, you are what you were before.





tlc said:


> Good point.
> 
> But spending your life with Lysa and her son are a pretty high price for having a title and a castle (stronghold? holdfast?). There must be a longer term plan. Perhaps he hopes to bring things around to where Sansa can come out of hiding and he can marry her.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Probably his plan is to manipulate the power that comes from being able to manipulate Lysa to his own advantage. Which is basically what he's done all along...achieve whatever power he can, and then leverage it to his benefit. By marrying the widow of one quasi-king and the mother of another, he has considerably increased his possibilities.


Let's not forget that Tywin granted Harrenhal to Littlefinger, so he's already a nobleman. And by marrying Lysa, I'd expect that now he controls both Harrenhal and the Eyrie.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, but is all of that potential power worth the headache of being married to that loon? It was obvious he was just humoring her when he said they could get married, but then he didn't expect her to have the clergy and witness waiting outside the door. Lysa must really provide some kind of significant strategic advantage, as putting up with her would be more than just challenging.


Well, he has gone from being a brothel-owner to being one of the seven sub-kings of Westeros by marriage. I'd say that's enough of an upgrade to justify enduring Lysa.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

tlc said:


> Marrying her makes him a noble, right?


Technically I think Baelish was always a Lord even before he went to King's Landing and was given Harrenhal, etc. It's just that his house was very small and insignificant (a minor house in the Vale). There's no question that he gets a big boost in stature being married to Lysa, even if he can't inherit personally. And, neither could any of their children since Robert will inherit.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

madscientist said:


> . And, neither could any of their children since Robert will inherit.


Do you mean Robin, or is there another Robert somewhere I have lost track of?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

zordude said:


> Do you mean Robin, or is there another Robert somewhere I have lost track of?


Robin's given name is Robert.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

At first I was wondering what they did with the real Lyssa when she was talking to Sansa. She was sounding quite sane for a minute. Sansa seemed to be enjoying her company. Now she must be thinking everyone in the entire country except her family are nuts.


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> <snip>
> 
> I do feel bad for Sansa, but she's in a lot better shape than poor Arya. Of course Arya is able to take care of herself. Sansa needs to toughen up.
> <snip>


In the first season or two I really disliked Sansa's character. Now, however, I find I just feel sorry for her. What exactly could she do to toughen up? I'm not seeing a lot of options available for her if she somehow managed to escape Littlefinger's clutches. She's less capable than Pod at wilderness living, clearly.  Her life skills that she spent her entire childhood acquiring are of no value in making her own way. I fail to see a course that would improve her path.

tta


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

GOT from Hodor's Perspective



Spoiler


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Kablemodem said:


> GOT from Hodor's Perspective
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


That's clearly fake. Nobody would ever believe that page 257 would fall into the 2nd half of any of these books.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Starks live in Winterfell. Lannisters live in Casterly Rock...etc.

where do the Baratheons live? I know they're in King's Landing now, but where is "home"?

It's not Dragonstone, is it?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

another question: didn't the Targarians invade the Eyrie? so it must have been conquered at some point. Dragons don't need a narrow mountain pass to reach it.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Starks live in Winterfell. Lannisters live in Casterly Rock...etc.
> 
> where do the Baratheons live? I know they're in King's Landing now, but where is "home"?
> 
> It's not Dragonstone, is it?


House Baratheon does claim Dragonstone, as well, but their home is Storm's End, a huge fortress on the coast which we haven't seen in the TV show. It's south of King's Landing but not so far south as Dorne.



Anubys said:


> another question: didn't the Targarians invade the Eyrie? so it must have been conquered at some point. Dragons don't need a narrow mountain pass to reach it.


They didn't invade per se, but yes, the Vale surrendered to the Targarians after one of them flew a dragon into the Eyrie.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> And remember, Varys said Petyr would see the entire kingdom burn if he could be king of the ashes. Varys is the only one who realizes how dangerous Baelish is.


One of the things I love about this show is that each time I watch a new season, I can go back and watch the previous seasons and get new things out of them. When I first watched that conversation, I interpreted it as Varys metaphorically attacking Petyr's selfish ambition. But now you are probably right; he meant it literally.



tlc said:


> Cersei was too nice all episode. Nice with Margaery. Nice discussing her upcoming marriage with her father. Either something's brewing or the loss of Joffrey (and the Jaime thing) broke her.


Yeah. Even if she didn't suspect any manipulation from Margaery, she has never been that friendly with her in the past. On one hand, it is suspicious. On the other hand, her 180 almost seems too suspicious for someone who was intentionally trying to manipulate a situation. (But maybe that's exactly what she wanted them to think. )



pmyers said:


> I liked it when we called him Littlefinger (or Baelish)! I don't like this Petyr thing....LOL


Heh. I'm torn on this issue. While I do like the sound of Baelish better than Petyr, it seems strange using first names for everyone except for him. I mean, Daenarys is currently the only one of her family name, but we don't call her Targaryen. 

Now that Petyr is married, I do wonder if we will soon find out that he enjoys eating pumpkin...



madscientist said:


> They didn't invade per se, but yes, the Vale surrendered to the Targarians after one of them flew a dragon into the Eyrie.


Speaking of invading, we never saw what happened with the hill tribes after Tyrion left for Kings Landing. Did they all die fighting against Robb Stark's army? Did they get their weapons from the Lannisters, attempt to take back the Vale, and then all die fighting there? Or are they waiting in the hills to ensure that even if Sansa runs away and gets a small taste of freedom, it won't be for long?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

tlc said:


> Cersei was too nice all episode. Nice with Margaery. Nice discussing her upcoming marriage with her father. Either something's brewing or the loss of Joffrey (and the Jaime thing) broke her.


She wants the trial to go her way. She needs Margaery's father, Tywin, and Oberyn.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

tivotvaddict said:


> In the first season or two I really disliked Sansa's character. Now, however, I find I just feel sorry for her. What exactly could she do to toughen up? I'm not seeing a lot of options available for her if she somehow managed to escape Littlefinger's clutches. She's less capable than Pod at wilderness living, clearly.  Her life skills that she spent her entire childhood acquiring are of no value in making her own way. I fail to see a course that would improve her path.
> 
> tta


While that is true of most women in Westeros, Arya was raised pretty much the same and yet is much better at adapting to whatever situation she finds herself in.



cherry ghost said:


> She wants the trial to go her way. She needs Margaery's father, Tywin, and Oberyn.


My guess is Tywin controls that verdict--I doubt if he needs Cercei's help.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> While that is true of most women in Westeros, Arya was raised pretty much the same and yet is much better at adapting to whatever situation she finds herself in.


That's because Arya was always a tomboy and wanted to do the stuff her brothers were doing rather than learn to be a lady.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

ihatecable said:


> Well Bramdor killed one of them, so you could reduce the bad guy count by one
> 
> PS: and yes I am now refering to Hodor under Bram's control as Bramdor,lol


Master-Blaster!


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

The facebook version: http://happyplace.someecards.com/31126/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-5


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

If Sansa marries Robin, she's marrying her cousin! I know they want the families merged but that's a little sick.

Why do I think we're going to have more of these near misses for Stark family reunions? "Jon can't see you, Bran. He'll make you go back."
"Arya? She just left."
"Jon, did I mention that I met Bram at the wall?"

The hound seemed to be more than a bit P-O'd that Arya got him in the gut.

"We need to allow a reasonable time for Margie to mourn the loss of her hubby, and you to mourn the loss of your son."
"How long?"
"A fortnight."

Then in a reasonable time, you will marry Ser Tyrell."
"In a fortnight." 

For a world where travel takes most of a year they sure move fast.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

No mention of the Dany portion of the show? So, she forefoes attacking Westeros when the time might be perfect for such an attack, to "rule like a Queen?" I REALLY think GRRM is purposely holding back Dany and her dragons until the very end of the story. Her portion of the show is mostly pointless at this point. I don't even care about it anymore. And since she's not involved in any more ummmm...provocative scenes, her portion of the show can just go away until she does something meaningful.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

MikeAndrews said:


> "A fortnight."


They are obsessed with forts and knights.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

zordude said:


> I found it very interesting that the Lannisters have not had a working gold mine for 3 years.


Not that it really matters too much, but how would they keep such a thing a secret? I would assume a working gold mine involves workers and if it's now a non-working mine, the ex-workers would know it.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm sure they have a way to "deal" with ex-workers.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

You'd think that the Lannister kids, especially Tyrion would know when their gold allowance seems to suddenly be finite.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Since the crown is into the Lannisters for millions of <unit of money>, perhaps the interest that the Baratheons are paying is sufficient to keep up appearances at Casterly Rock.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Has it been established who runs the "bank"? Does one family control it or is it a cooperative of all the major families?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Since the crown is into the Lannisters for millions of <unit of money>, perhaps the interest that the Baratheons are paying is sufficient to keep up appearances at Casterly Rock.


As of mid season 1, we heard that the crown was 6 million gold in debt: 3 million to the Lannisters, and (though I'm not sure we ever heard exact figures) I presume the other 3 million (or at least most of it) was to the Iron Bank. I don't know what the figures are now. I'm not sure what the war with Robb cost, but we heard is was incredibly expensive.

As for the Baratheons, I'm not sure why or what they'd be paying. It's the crown that owes the debt, not the family. And even if the family was on the hook somehow, since most of the stormlands and reach (other than the Tyrells) sided with Stannis, I'm not sure they'd be interested in paying now.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Has it been established who runs the "bank"? Does one family control it or is it a cooperative of all the major families?


You mean the Iron Bank? No idea. Nothing has really been established. Before this season, it's just been mentioned in passing a few times with no real info. This season they seem to really be fleshing out the concept. It's been a topic of discussion in 3 or 4 of the episodes this season, so I get the impression it's going to become a much bigger player in the coming seasons.

I'm still trying to figure out what the letter Davos was writing to them was about. He got the idea talking about something about how their army (the first swords, I think it was) wasn't interested in the distinction between pirates and smugglers. I'm guessing he's hoping they won't care about the distinction of Stannis being the rightful king and yet not being the actual king...something along the lines of "if you'd like to see your debt repaid once I retake the crown, I suggest you play a part in helping me do so"


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> As of mid season 1, we heard that the crown was 6 million gold in debt: 3 million to the Lannisters, and (though I'm not sure we ever heard exact figures) I presume the other 3 million (or at least most of it) was to the Iron Bank. I don't know what the figures are now. I'm not sure what the war with Robb cost, but we heard is was incredibly expensive.
> 
> As for the Baratheons, I'm not sure why or what they'd be paying. It's the crown that owes the debt, not the family. And even if the family was on the hook somehow, since most of the stormlands and reach (other than the Tyrells) sided with Stannis, I'm not sure they'd be interested in paying now.


You are sidestepping the point. The Kingdom, the Crown, whomever, owes the Lannisters quite a lot. They must be paying their payments. It's not like you can just borrow money and pay nothing forever. So the Lannisters have income from that loan.

The Baratheons hold the crown, are the titular head of the Kingdom, and have run up the debt. I used their name simply to indicate that. The debt has to be paid, and I'm certain Littlefinger was doing so, and that task was briefly Tyrions, but since he's in a dungeon now, he won't be doing that any longer.

Even if you accept Tommen as a Lannister (he is of both houses according to his coronation), the Crown/Kingdom/whatever, still owes that money back to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, and just because Tommen is related to them doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay his interest payments.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> You are sidestepping the point. The Kingdom, the Crown, whomever, owes the Lannisters quite a lot. They must be paying their payments. It's not like you can just borrow money and pay nothing forever. So the Lannisters have income from that loan.
> 
> The Baratheons hold the crown, are the titular head of the Kingdom, and have run up the debt. I used their name simply to indicate that. The debt has to be paid, and I'm certain Littlefinger was doing so, and that task was briefly Tyrions, but since he's in a dungeon now, he won't be doing that any longer.
> 
> Even if you accept Tommen as a Lannister (he is of both houses according to his coronation), the Crown/Kingdom/whatever, still owes that money back to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, and just because Tommen is related to them doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay his interest payments.


The problem is, essentially the Lannisters and crown are the same thing right now. And we know the crown has been burning through cash with the war, and we can imply from a few of the Twyin conversations that much of that funding came from the Lannisters. Thus any interest payments you are referring to are moot...the crown would be borrowing from the lannisters to fund the war, and then paying back a small portion of that as interest payments to the Lannisters. The Lannisters would have had a net outflow of cash.

Now that the Tyrells are going to be a part of the family, it was discussed how they will help fund the crowns debt. It was mostly talked about in the context of the Iron Bank, but maybe some of that money will go to the Lannisters too. But so far, I don't think that's happening...not until the next wedding.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Has it been established who runs the "bank"? Does one family control it or is it a cooperative of all the major families?


The Iron Bank is in Braavos, which is a Free City located in the Essos, the huge continent across the Narrow Sea from Westeros (same continent Dany is on, but in a different area). So it's independent of and cannot be controlled by the Crown or any of the 7 Kingdoms, and as Tywin said, they take debt collection very seriously.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> The problem is, essentially the Lannisters and crown are the same thing right now.


No. Tommen is a Baratheon. The Lannisters hold power behind the scenes, yes, but not publicly.



> And we know the crown has been burning through cash with the war, and we can imply from a few of the Twyin conversations that much of that funding came from the Lannisters. Thus any interest payments you are referring to are moot...the crown would be borrowing from the lannisters to fund the war, and then paying back a small portion of that as interest payments to the Lannisters. The Lannisters would have had a net outflow of cash.


I think we are talking past one another here. Tywin let us know that the last gold mine ran dry 3 years ago, well before the war of the 5 kings began. The question was - how did they maintain the fiction of being so wealthy with no more gold? I argued that their incomes from other sources, such as interest payments on debts given to the crown (and likely other places), have allowed them to maintain this fiction. That's why nobody knows there isn't any more gold. They still have cash flow. I'm certain they also have reserves. Tywin does not strike me as a man who would live "paycheck to paycheck" as it were.

I will grant you that it's running out, which is why the Tyrells are so important to Tywin, but it's not gone to the point where they can't maintain the charade any more.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> You mean the Iron Bank? No idea. Nothing has really been established. Before this season, it's just been mentioned in passing a few times with no real info. This season they seem to really be fleshing out the concept. It's been a topic of discussion in 3 or 4 of the episodes this season, so I get the impression it's going to become a much bigger player in the coming seasons.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out what the letter Davos was writing to them was about. He got the idea talking about something about how their army (the first swords, I think it was) wasn't interested in the distinction between pirates and smugglers. I'm guessing he's hoping they won't care about the distinction of Stannis being the rightful king and yet not being the actual king...something along the lines of "if you'd like to see your debt repaid once I retake the crown, I suggest you play a part in helping me do so"


Yes the Iron Bank. Maybe it's a flaw in the story, (or maybe something big is coming), but you'd think something as important as the Iron Bank would be associated with a family we already know. And you would think the Iron Bank would have immense power, considering how much money it's used for financing.

Edit: Reading DPR's post, since it's not in Westeros, I suppose it makes sense that it's not a huge part of the story yet. Is this something perhaps Dany might want to control?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Does Westeros collect taxes? I'm sure they do, but I don't remember hearing anyone complain about it. That's where you'd expect the crown to get money. 

I consider the Iron Bank to be kind of like mob loan sharks. It doesn't matter who you are, you pay them back or else. I don't think they are under the influence of anyone either in Westeros or across the Narrow Sea. 

The army Davos was talking about getting is one of many mercenary armies available for the right price. Organized sellswords, I guess. I don't think they are connected to the bank, that's just what he wanted the money for. I think.....


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> I think we are talking past one another here. Tywin let us know that the last gold mine ran dry 3 years ago, well before the war of the 5 kings began. The question was - how did they maintain the fiction of being so wealthy with no more gold? I argued that their incomes from other sources, such as interest payments on debts given to the crown (and likely other places), have allowed them to maintain this fiction. That's why nobody knows there isn't any more gold. They still have cash flow. I'm certain they also have reserves. Tywin does not strike me as a man who would live "paycheck to paycheck" as it were.
> 
> I will grant you that it's running out, which is why the Tyrells are so important to Tywin, but it's not gone to the point where they can't maintain the charade any more.


Oh, I didn't realize that's what you were trying to get at. Yes, Tywin doesn't strike me as a modern day American, spending every cent (and more) he earns. I'm sure he's quite the saver. The problem is, he's been laid off for a while, can't find a new job, and his unemployment checks are only a tiny fraction of his previous salary. He's frugal, but his emergency fund is only finite.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Edit: Reading DPR's post, since it's not in Westeros, I suppose it makes sense that it's not a huge part of the story yet. Is this something perhaps Dany might want to control?


Oh, yeah. Sorry. Probably should have mentioned that. I guess I just sort of assume everyone else has memorized the Westeros/Essos maps the way I have. 

I doubt Dany is going to have much involvement with them. For one, they are based in Bravos, which is quite a way from Slavers Bay, where she is right now. Probably as far as Kings Landing to Winterfell, but with a lot less interesting and hospitable stuff in between. The only way I forsee her having any involvement with them is if it turns out one of the slave cities she conquered happened to be in debt to them and they now expect her to foot the bill.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm willing to bet Littlefinger is aware of the gold mines situation. That would explain why he started planning for the days after the Lannisters are ousted.

Being master of coin, I'm sure he was intimately aware that the Lannisters stopped funding Robert and started borrowing from the Iron Bank.

As for what Davos did, my guess is that he wrote the iron bank and proposed to pay a better rate on the Westeros debt if they would finance Stannis' takeover of King's Landing.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I'm willing to bet Littlefinger is aware of the gold mines situation.


I don't expect he wouldn't have known this, as part of being Master of Coin. As you mention, there's almost no way he wouldn't know that the Lannister gold was drying up. Robert's wars were expensive, and the money had to come from somewhere, so I'm sure he knows exactly how much the Iron Bank is owed.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> I don't expect he wouldn't have known this, as part of being Master of Coin. As you mention, there's almost no way he wouldn't know that the Lannister gold was drying up. Robert's wars were expensive, and the money had to come from somewhere, so I'm sure he knows exactly how much the Iron Bank is owed.


If the Lannister's were borrowing from the Iron Bank to lend to the Crown the Master of Coin might not be on to it.

His spy network might have helped though.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> I don't expect he wouldn't have known this, as part of being Master of Coin. As you mention, there's almost no way he wouldn't know that the Lannister gold was drying up. Robert's wars were expensive, and the money had to come from somewhere, so I'm sure he knows exactly how much the Iron Bank is owed.


I'll preface by saying that clearly Littlefinger and Varys both know a whole lot of stuff that isn't any of their business. But I don't see how being Master of Coin would _necessarily_ mean that Littlefinger (or even Tyrion, for that matter) would have access to the Lannister books, so to speak.

As has been mentioned, presumably there are taxes coming in. Given what we've been told, these taxes don't cover all the expenses of the war(s). If, then, they ask Tywin for money, he can either lend it or not, at his discretion. Where Tywin gets those funds from is Tywin's business, not the Master of Coin's.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

But it has been mentioned that THE THRONE owes the Iron Bank money. So I think it's safe to assume that the loans are directly to the king and not lent to the Lannisters first.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Not only that, but didn't Tyrion make a comment or two while he was Master of Coin about how the Throne probably needed rein in it's spending? I'm sure both Littlefinger and Tyrion are well aware of the debt and therefore the Lannister's insolvency.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not only that, but didn't Tyrion make a comment or two while he was Master of Coin about how the Throne probably needed rein in it's spending? I'm sure both Littlefinger and Tyrion are well aware of the debt and therefore the Lannister's insolvency.


But why do you equate the Throne's debt with the Lannisters' debt? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

Pretend I have a friend who owns a business. One day he finds himself overextended, and asks me for a loan. I'm having some financial difficulties of my own, but I have the money to cover his needs, and I decide it's in my long-term best interest to lend it to him, so I do. His CFO has no knowledge of the fact that the money I loaned has nearly cleaned me out. All he knows is that they asked me for money and I gave it to them.

Now, substitute Tywin for me, the Throne for the business, and the Master of Coin for the CFO. Isn't that the scenario we have in Kings Landing right now? Or am I missing something?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I would guess that when the Lannisters were flush with gold, they were funding the Baratheon regime with no need for loans from the Iron Bank. The fact that the Iron Bank is even involved should be an indicator to whoever is aware of it that the Lannisters are no longer able to finance the throne. Whether that means they're out of gold, or simply running low, it should be fairly clear to the Master of Coin.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> No mention of the Dany portion of the show? So, she forefoes attacking Westeros when the time might be perfect for such an attack, to "rule like a Queen?" I REALLY think GRRM is purposely holding back Dany and her dragons until the very end of the story. Her portion of the show is mostly pointless at this point. I don't even care about it anymore. And since she's not involved in any more ummmm...provocative scenes, her portion of the show can just go away until she does something meaningful.


Of all the people we have seen rule, Dany is the first that understands that ruling is not just being queen. She wants to be a good queen by the time she gets to Westoros. Better to practice on easy level (over freedmen who love her incredibly) then to get to Westoros and take power from those who are greedily hanging on to the Lannisters coat tails.

Dany also feels a responsibility to the people she freed who are now slipping back into a life not worth living.

It is easy to conquer and move on. It is a lot harder to rule.

I have no issue with it.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Of all the people we have seen rule, Dany is the first that understands that ruling is not just being queen. She wants to be a good queen by the time she gets to Westoros. Better to practice on easy level (over freedmen who love her incredibly) then to get to Westoros and take power from those who are greedily hanging on to the Lannisters coat tails.
> 
> Dany also feels a responsibility to the people she freed who are now slipping back into a life not worth living. It is easy to conquer and move on. It is a lot harder to rule.
> 
> I have no issue with it.


From a character and plot development standpoint, it makes sense. From a viewing standpoint, it's boring.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> No mention of the Dany portion of the show? So, she forefoes attacking Westeros when the time might be perfect for such an attack, to "rule like a Queen?" I REALLY think GRRM is purposely holding back Dany and her dragons until the very end of the story. Her portion of the show is mostly pointless at this point. I don't even care about it anymore. And since she's not involved in any more ummmm...provocative scenes, her portion of the show can just go away until she does something meaningful.





Shaunnick said:


> Of all the people we have seen rule, Dany is the first that understands that ruling is not just being queen. She wants to be a good queen by the time she gets to Westoros. Better to practice on easy level (over freedmen who love her incredibly) then to get to Westoros and take power from those who are greedily hanging on to the Lannisters coat tails.
> 
> Dany also feels a responsibility to the people she freed who are now slipping back into a life not worth living.
> 
> ...





DevdogAZ said:


> From a character and plot development standpoint, it makes sense. From a viewing standpoint, it's boring.


I don't find it boring at all. At the beginning of the series I didn't care for the whole Drogo/Vaserys/Dany story at all, and now she is my favorite character after Tyrion. The plot itself has been a bit repetitive, certainly. Free the slaves, conquer the city, add soldiers to the army, wash, rinse, repeat. But I'm enjoying her character development. She's learning and, as Shaunnick says, practicing how to be a good ruler.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> From a character and plot development standpoint, it makes sense. From a viewing standpoint, it's boring.


This!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Dawghows said:


> She's learning and, as Shaunnick says, practicing how to be a good ruler.


All done in a self-righteous and full of herself kind of way, of couse


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> From a character and plot development standpoint, it makes sense. From a viewing standpoint, it's boring.


I find her story the more interesting, frankly. And it doesn't hurt that they have sunshine there. At least what she's doing is uplifting. Everybody in Westeros is a different flavor of despicable.

I find her speeches, the catapulting of slave collars, and her leadership style much more fun to watch than the goings-on in Westeros.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Not only that, but didn't Tyrion make a comment or two while he was Master of Coin about how the Throne probably needed rein in it's spending? I'm sure both Littlefinger and Tyrion are well aware of the debt and therefore the Lannister's insolvency.


I think both the Throne and Lannisters have their own debts to the Iron Bank. So far Tyrion hasn't given any indication that he is aware of the Lannisters' trouble, but we do know he is aware of the Throne's.

So if Petyr found out (and I don't doubt he did), I don't think it was simply due to his being Master of Coin, but rather due other eyes and ears in his network.

This, of course, begs the question, where is this Iron Bank getting all its money? They apparently have enough money to finance the Lannisters, the Crown, and potentially the Baratheons.

Are we going to have a scene where Daenerys sells one of her dragons to them for all their gold, followed by them being burnt alive while she says, "A dragon is not an asset."? 

Hopefully we get to see Braavos at some point in the future. Apparently that's where all the top swordsmen, assassins, and bankers go.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I find her story the more interesting, frankly. And it doesn't hurt that they have sunshine there. At least what she's doing is uplifting. Everybody in Westeros is a different flavor of despicable.


I don't know if I personally would say it was more interesting, but I still find it interesting, and am glad they are letting us know what is happening with her. I think they are doing a good job of keeping us updated, while not dwelling too much on her while she isn't doing much that is different.

The scene in this episode showed that she is not just interested in conquering Westeros for power, but to be a leader who strives to make Westeros a good place for everyone to live. She doesn't just want to conquer them; she wants to win them over.

And even from a purely strategic standpoint, it might be better to let the houses finish duking it out before she makes her play. That way she only has the remaining house to challenge, rather than getting the challenge from all sides. By that time she might even be able to get some of the losing houses to join her because they'll no longer think they can take out the winning house on their own.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't know--I think Westeros would unite to fight a Targarian with dragons. Or maybe not just not wanting to be on the losing side. When they kept telling Dany's brother that Westeros was all wishing he would come back and save them from the usurper, I was skeptical. Now Selmy is telling her that, but I don't remember seeing any indication of it. Of course, Dany is way better than her brother, but there have been crazy Targarians in the past, and they don't really know her. I guess a lot would depend on whether she can control the dragons and really use them to fight.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I don't know--I think Westeros would unite to fight a Targarian with dragons. Or maybe not just not wanting to be on the losing side.


The "not wanting to be on the losing side" is why I think some might side with Daenerys. At this point, I think the Lannisters, Tyrells, and Martells would unite against her. But in a year who knows where certain betrayals might lead.

If one of the houses ends up with most of the power, the other ones might not think it is worth it to join them in fighting Daenerys, even if she is a Targaryen. And perhaps they would have also heard about the slaves she freed, and decided she might not be so bad.

And then there are also all the minor houses in the North, who might not care for Bolton being in charge, and would jump at the chance to join with a powerful leader, or at the very least not want to stick their necks out to defend Bolton's authority.

Of course, who knows what the state of the North is going to be like by the time Daenerys gets to Westeros.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

With all this talk of who will side with whom, we often forget (I think by Martin's design) what the real battle is...the human race against the, er, inhumans who are moving towards them (I don't think the very first scene of both show and book was an accident). Most of Our Crew don't know about them or even believe they exist, but I have no doubt that will be the final battle...and whenever whoever comes to realize that should become an increasingly important part of the story as the years go by.

Personally I think it will be Daenerys and Jon leading the humans in the end, with everybody else either with them or ground into the dust. But we have a long, long way to go!


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## RGM1138 (Oct 6, 1999)

I've only watched a couple eps of this show, and OMG, it's so dark! I can only watch it at night. Note to the DP: please consider cranking open the lens a T-stop or so. Or throw a light on the set, anything.

And, Holy Crap, Dianna Rigg got old! I had such a crush on her in the '60s.

BTW, now that they've killed off Justin Beebur, I may watch a few more eps.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I enjoyed watching Pod and Brienne together. Pretty funny that only after Pod told her about killing one of the King's guard was he suddenly worthy of helping her with her armor.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

RGM1183 Diana Rigg looks a lot better than Oleana Tyrell [media]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/19/article-2584183-1C690BE700000578-276_634x863.jpg[/media] 
I'll admit she isn't as hot as Mrs Peel, but 50 years will do that to anyone.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Yikes


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> With all this talk of who will side with whom, we often forget (I think by Martin's design) what the real battle is...the human race against the, er, inhumans who are moving towards them (I don't think the very first scene of both show and book was an accident). Most of Our Crew don't know about them or even believe they exist, but I have no doubt that will be the final battle...and whenever whoever comes to realize that should become an increasingly important part of the story as the years go by.
> 
> Personally I think it will be Daenerys and Jon leading the humans in the end, with everybody else either with them or ground into the dust. But we have a long, long way to go!


That would make an interesting twist! I'd love the "oh ****" moment when they realize that threat.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> With all this talk of who will side with whom, we often forget (I think by Martin's design) what the real battle is...the human race against the, er, inhumans who are moving towards them (I don't think the very first scene of both show and book was an accident). Most of Our Crew don't know about them or even believe they exist, but I have no doubt that will be the final battle...and whenever whoever comes to realize that should become an increasingly important part of the story as the years go by.
> 
> Personally I think it will be Daenerys and Jon leading the humans in the end, with everybody else either with them or ground into the dust. But we have a long, long way to go!


I'm sure you're right, but at this moment in the story, it's not very compelling. First I think there will be a battle for control of Westeros, and ultimately that power will have to fight the monsters from the north. Or, maybe not


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I'm sure you're right, but at this moment in the story, it's not very compelling. First I think there will be a battle for control of Westeros, and ultimately that power will have to fight the monsters from the north. Or, maybe not


Or perhaps the fighting over who gets to control Westeros becomes more and more insignificant as more and more people come to realize "Oops, _we're_ not the real problem here"...

And I suspect those people will start banding together against humanity's common foe, leaving the ones who just want an uncomfortable chair increasingly (and infuriatingly) marginalized.

As I suggested earlier, I think this has been Martin's long game all along, and that he has been deliberately downplaying (without completely ignoring) the "important" stuff so his real story can unfold more or less in the background, while we're distracted by all the shiny stuff (and uncomfortable chairs) in the foreground..


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm just confused about the shot of the zombie army we saw marching south at the end of S2. We're now in the middle of S4 and they still aren't close enough to the wall that they're on the Nights Watch radar. So just how far north were these zombies starting from? And given that they must have some kind of magical powers (they are undead, after all), how is it that they travel so slowly?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, the Night Watch's radar kinda sucks. 

To show up, they'd either have to stumble across them, or the zombies would have to hit the Wall at one of three specific points (the rest being unmanned). Plus, we don't know what logistical constraints the "zombies" are operating under...what do they do for sustenance? How easy/hard is it to come by? How good are they at handling the very bad terrain north of the Wall? Do they stop for puppet shows? Etc.

I think at this point, knowing what we know about the zombie army (i.e., nothing), we just have to assume that they are a vast, dangerous force that is out there and coming our way. And eventually, they will emerge from the darkness into full view. Which will probably suck considerably.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Much like those Killer Bees we've been expecting since the 1970s. When they get here, look out!


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

They cannot cross the Wall. The Wall is not just ice -- it stops the white walkers.


Spoiler



That is why it is such a big deal that Mance was going to blow a horn to bring down the Wall.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the Night Watch's radar kinda sucks.
> 
> To show up, they'd either have to stumble across them, or the zombies would have to hit the Wall at one of three specific points (the rest being unmanned). Plus, we don't know what logistical constraints the "zombies" are operating under...what do they do for sustenance? How easy/hard is it to come by? How good are they at handling the very bad terrain north of the Wall? Do they stop for puppet shows? Etc.
> 
> I think at this point, knowing what we know about the zombie army (i.e., nothing), we just have to assume that they are a vast, dangerous force that is out there and coming our way. And eventually, they will emerge from the darkness into full view. Which will probably suck considerably.


To add to that,

The White Walkers obviously don't care for the sun or heat. I think it is not yet wintery enough for them south of the wall. Look at the Dreadfort scenes, which is about as far north as we have seen in Westoros south of the wall. No way the White Walkers attack there now. The water is not even froze over yet.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Edit: putting this quote in spoiler tags, since I think it might have accidentally revealed some book info (I'm not a book reader so I'm not positive the significance of it)



Spoiler






john4200 said:


> That is why it is such a big deal that Mance was going to blow a horn to destroy the Wall.






I must have missed something. The only thing I heard was a bonfire to signal those south of the wall to attack castle black. I assume they were supposed to try to open the gates so that mance's army could then get through the tunnel.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I must have missed something. The only thing I heard was a bonfire to signal those south of the wall to attack castle black. I assume they were supposed to try to open the gates so that mance's army could then get through the tunnel.


That is the plan. The idea was that Tormund's group approaches from the south, because Castle black has only one wall. They would be able to take them unawares and open the gate, letting in Mance's larger army.

Jon Snow kinda ****ed that plan up.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm just confused about the shot of the zombie army we saw marching south at the end of S2. We're now in the middle of S4 and they still aren't close enough to the wall that they're on the Nights Watch radar. So just how far north were these zombies starting from? And given that they must have some kind of magical powers (they are undead, after all), how is it that they travel so slowly?


But did we see them marching south? At the end of season 2, we saw them closing in on the First of the First Men, and in the beginning of season 3, we saw that they had attacked (and slaughtered many of) the crows there, and made some odd artwork with the horse heads. Other than that, we've seen nothing more of what they've done, other than the solitary walker that Sam killed, and the walker that took the baby from the former-Craster's keep and took it back to that ice alter with the rest of the walkers. I don't remember anything else that indicated they were actively moving south at this time.

Now the crows probably assumed they were, which was why they wanted Sam to send a crow off to castle black, but that was just their assumption.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> That is the plan. The idea was that Tormund's group approaches from the south, because Castle black has only one wall. They would be able to take them unawares and open the gate, letting in Mance's larger army.
> 
> Jon Snow kinda ****ed that plan up.


Edit: putting this following in spoiler tags, since I think the post I am referring to might have accidentally revealed some book info (I'm not a book reader so I'm not positive the significance of it)



Spoiler



Yeah, so what's this about blowing up the wall then? Did someone accidentally post some info from the book?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, so what's this about blowing up the wall then? Did someone accidentally post some info from the book?





Spoiler



Who mentioned blowing up the wall?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Who mentioned ...?


john4200 mentioned it, but he has now spoilered it. I'm assuming I was correct, and that he did post some book info. Hopefully it was just something that has changed from the book, rather than giving away something that hasn't yet happened 

In any case, I'm going to edit my post to spoiler the part of his post I quoted. I'd suggest you edit your post likewise so nothing potentially gets ruined for anyone else


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> john4200 mentioned it, but he has now spoilered it. I'm assuming I was correct, and that he did post some book info. Hopefully it was just something that has changed from the book, rather than giving away something that hasn't yet happened
> 
> In any case, I'm going to edit my post to spoiler the part of his post I quoted. I'd suggest you edit your post likewise so nothing potentially gets ruined for anyone else


He said, "blow a horn," not blow it up. I assumed the horn was some kind of signal to the Wilding army to attack the wall.



LordKronos said:


> But did we see them marching south? At the end of season 2, we saw them closing in on the First of the First Men, and in the beginning of season 3, we saw that they had attacked (and slaughtered many of) the crows there, and made some odd artwork with the horse heads. Other than that, we've seen nothing more of what they've done, other than the solitary walker that Sam killed, and the walker that took the baby from the former-Craster's keep and took it back to that ice alter with the rest of the walkers. I don't remember anything else that indicated they were actively moving south at this time.
> 
> Now the crows probably assumed they were, which was why they wanted Sam to send a crow off to castle black, but that was just their assumption.


Well, we saw a massive army of zombies marching. I'm assuming they weren't just marching to kill the few members of the Nights Watch and then turned around and went back where they came from. Presumably, it's not that far from the Fist of the First Men to the Wall, since Jon Snow has covered that distance a few times since then. So the question remains, why show them marching at the end of S2 if they're either so far north that it's going to take months (seasons) for them to be a threat, or they're marching so slowly that it's going to take months (seasons) for them to be a threat?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

There is nothing to see here. Nothing at all.


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