# TivoMargaret are you listening!



## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

Speaking for everyone here 

Please add these SPS BackDoor items as permanent additions to the setting menu. Having to reset them everytime after a power outage or update is a real pain in the arsh. Thanks

CLOCK: SPS9S
4X FF: SPS88S


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

heifer624 said:


> Speaking for everyone here
> 
> Please add these SPS BackDoor items as permanent additions to the setting menu. Having to reset them everytime after a power outage or update is a real pain in the arsh. Thanks
> 
> ...


Well, you are hardly speaking for everybody and you might not think so, but you are coming across as a bit rude in the way you posted this.

Not only that, but you spelled her name *wrong*...

A simple request, and making sure you spell the name right might go over much nicer. Just FYI, nothing personal.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

There's always one in every crowd...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

MikeBear said:


> A simple request, and making sure you spell the name right might go over much nicer. Just FYI, nothing personal.


I swear it's something in the water.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

MikeBear said:


> Well, you are hardly speaking for everybody and you might not think so, but you are coming across as a bit rude in the way you posted this.
> 
> Not only that, but you spelled her name *wrong*...
> 
> A simple request, and making sure you spell the name right might go over much nicer. Just FYI, nothing personal.


Are you sure its spelled wrong?


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

ThAbtO said:


> Are you sure its spelled wrong?


Yeah, though he changed his 1st post title AFTER I pointed that out, the entire thread title is still spelled wrong. I admit, with her name it's an easy mistake to make. Our eyes fool us all the time, and tend to SEE what we are used to, and not always what's REALLY there. I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything, just pointing it out.

Here is what he originally had: *TivoMargaret are you listening! *


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

It only shows we're human.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

ThAbtO said:


> It only shows we're human.


Hey speak for yourself and don't assume!


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ThAbtO said:


> Are you sure its spelled wrong?


Well, either that or it was misspelled right.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

Hi TivoMargaret,

Don't know if you're reading any of this but I would like to see clear and complete instruction on how to reliably hook up a mini via ethernet. Tivo literature makes it appear to be plug and play like all other network devices from everyone. But it's not. It's touchy, finicky, and may or may not work depending on unexplained requirements. Some, possibly most, people who use ethernet have no issues, I assume. This makes the situation perplexing.

Customer support reads from scripts that are incomplete, maddeningly simplistic to the point of infuriating, ask bizarre questions such as 'do you use a switch?, and more. Anecdotaly, the implication from others in forum posts is that the policy is to blame users for their poor network. (PS some users have voip ... stop asking them to reboot modems or routers if they have it and happen to be using it to call customer support - I use ooma which is plug and play with no excuses or qualification from them on install)

Asking for advice from others, such as here, gets good, bad, and troll-like replies. It ineffective and, unfortunately, the best resource available at this time. Your CS reps told me to use this as a resource to solve my problems since they couldn't.

I also contacted CS in writing and received a response that basically took my assumptions and repeated them back at me in a way that lacked clarity.

In my case, using wired ethernet, my minis could see my premier, read the guide, see what was recorded, contact tivo servers, reach and stream from hulu and otherwise look like they worked flawlessly, except for the fact they couldn't get live tv or recorded video from the dvr. The premier couldn't see and/or allocate a tuner and/or stream anything to the minis. This made them utterly useless for the main purpose of owning a mini - watching live tv or recordings. Moca worked well and that's what I settled for. (oddly, the minis could attach perfectly by ethernet if I used a travel router as a wireless client to get the mini on the network - so much for wireless is always a no-go)

(Note to CS: rebooting a router is a try at dhcp kicking in. If you can update from tivo servers, you have an ip address on the local network and router reboot is unnecessary, although it does make you look like you have a plan.)

So, please provide clear and concise instructions on how to connect a mini to a 4 tuner+ dvr so that most common and advanced home networks can reliably use the equipment they own via ethernet. If something is not expected to work, please document it, also. If some home routers are so frail that rebooting is a requirement, mention recommended requirements. If switches really are the villain here, please explain how and why since some people use tivo with them without issue and no network can function without them.

At this time I can't recommend tivo to a friend because of how unreliable it is with minis and ethernet for me. Please allow me to brag to my friends about my wonderful tivo system. As I mentioned, using moca it works quite well. Provide reliable and complete documentation for how to attach a mini via ethernet to a dvr so that it should be expected to work 100% of the time under normal circumstances. Just plugging cat6 into the port on the mini isn't always enough.

addendum: During my test period, I used the travel router to attach the premier to the network and all minis were tested by plugging them into the 'switch' I used that may or may not be an issue. The 'switch' is a Netgear R6300V2 configured as a wireless access point. All worked perfectly. The problems appeared when I converted to all comcast / tivo and used the network in a normal way that no other device I own has a problem with. Everything that is or has used the R6300V2 as a switch has worked perfectly since long before I ever considered moving to Tivo. The DVR is plugged into a R6300V2 switch port. From this point, it couldn't connect to my minis via ethernet. If you believe the R6300V2 is an issue, please be specific as to why.


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## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

jim1971, maybe we should change your name to "ThreadJacker"... but I guess you did move my request to the top of the list again.


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

heifer624 said:


> jim1971, maybe we should change your name to "ThreadJacker"... but I guess you did move my request to the top of the list again.


Didn't jack your thread. If you have a specific topic, put it in the headline. You made the thread generic with the one you used. You work for CS?

Don't worry, nobody outside of the forum probably read it.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

jim1971 said:


> addendum: During my test period, I used the travel router to attach the premier to the network and all minis were tested by plugging them into the 'switch' I used that may or may not be an issue. The 'switch' is a Netgear R6300V2 configured as a wireless access point. All worked perfectly. The problems appeared when I converted to all comcast / tivo and used the network in a normal way that no other device I own has a problem with. Everything that is or has used the R6300V2 as a switch has worked perfectly since long before I ever considered moving to Tivo. The DVR is plugged into a R6300V2 switch port. From this point, it couldn't connect to my minis via ethernet. If you believe the R6300V2 is an issue, please be specific as to why.


I'd be really suspicious of the R6300V2. I see in the manual where it indicates you can use it as a WAP on your network with another router. It still concerns me that it's using the Internet port as the uplink to your other router. Can you confirm that your main routers still hands out the IP address for devices connected to the R6300V2 whether wired or wireless? I wonder though if you are getting bridged for the devices behind it and the devices on the other side of the R6300V2 are not seeing the real MAC addresses of the devices connected to the R6300V2. This works fine in many cases but not all and you'll find lots of references to this in an Internet search. You should be able to see what the MAC addresses are on your main router to verify this. Also to truly use the R6300V2 as a switch just use 1 of the 4 Ethernet LAN ports for your uplink to your router which would eliminate any issues with what the R6300V2 might be doing on the Internet port.

Scott


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

Hi HerronScott,

The R6300v2 is not handing out ip addresses. I'm sure of it. My router is commercial quality. My wiring is all cat6. All other devices always have and currently work absolutely fine on my network. The tivo mini is the odd one out on ethernet.

There's a long history of forum speculation that asks unanswerable questions about possible flaws in the network where the mini doesn't work. Uneducated people speculate about 'switch debugging' and ask other questions that imply the person with the problem is dirt stupid or has spent 30 seconds trying to figure it out. I have spent parts of two days on this and I don't believe I'm stupid. I have reset everything you can reset, called customer support many times, and even tested cat6 wiring.

Tivo is the one that has issues with switches. This is odd to me because you can't have a network without a switch (or hub, which is rarely used today). It's impossible unless your network is 100% wireless. 

As I said, I have it working great over moca. I'm happy to have changed over to comcast / tivo. Wired ethernet and the tivo mini is the issue.


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## Tobashadow (Nov 11, 2006)

Did I find someone for my ignore list?

Everyone else has one why not me! 

(Bends head and kicks foot in the dirt)


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

jim1971 said:


> The R6300v2 is not handing out ip addresses. I'm sure of it. My router is commercial quality. My wiring is all cat6. All other devices always have and currently work absolutely fine on my network. The tivo mini is the odd one out on ethernet.
> 
> There's a long history of forum speculation that asks unanswerable questions about possible flaws in the network where the mini doesn't work. Uneducated people speculate about 'switch debugging' and ask other questions that imply the person with the problem is dirt stupid or has spent 30 seconds trying to figure it out. I have spent parts of two days on this and I don't believe I'm stupid. I have reset everything you can reset, called customer support many times, and even tested cat6 wiring.
> 
> ...


I understand you are/were frustrated. I'm just trying to offer you a technical reason why the mini would not work with your router configured as a WAP if it is indeed acting as a bridge and not a transparent switch. I've used Netgear's wireless print servers which have 4 Ethernet ports in a bridge configuration and there are some network activities that will not work although for the typical home user it doesn't have any impact. One example is handing out assigned IP addresses from your DHCP server won't work as that's based on MAC address and anything on the other side of the bridge appears to have the same MAC address as I mentioned. Anything that's functioning at layer 2 won't work.

Scott


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

Hi HerronScott,

As I mentioned I spent parts of 2 days looking into this problem. The R6300V2 as a wireless access point / switch works perfectly. I am both skilled and educated in networks, although this matters little to forum speculators who never seem to entertain the concept that someone has skill and experience in such matters. 

No other piece of network equipment has or ever had an issue connecting on my network, but if a tivo mini has a problem then weird contrived explanations come out of the woodwork. It almost seems that there's a belief that if I can be marginalized then the problem really is in my imagination, a form of bullying. I would prefer tivo write clear and concise Ethernet instructions for their equipment that can be expected to work 100% of the time under normal circumstances. All I have ever seen are generalized instruction.Maybe a 'common troubleshooting guide' could be designed.

if there's a problem with tivo software as it related to wired ethernet, then fix it and move on. Mention it in some 'release notes' and then the problem is gone forever. If there's a procedure issue, document it and publish it in a place where everyone can find it and read it. Tell customers what steps to follow and when with respect to tivo servers and updates. If there's an equipment concern, state it where it can be read and explain what to avoid and what should always work. Incompatible network equipment is a constant forum scapegoat, such as your wondering about Netgear.

To me, tivo is a miracle product and the mini is revolutionary. It's a game changer that actually lowers costs for the consumer if strategically applied. The wired Ethernet issue is an annoyance and perplexing since a plug and play system that requires few network skills to install is literally golden. Berating users over switches is both odd and inexplicable.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Jim,

I found your other thread on this and you already identified the problem which still goes back to your Netgear router acting as a WAP by being in bridging mode which is *not* transparent switching. This is not TiVo's problem but a limitation of that form of bridging and is exactly why TiVo doesn't want to support trying to troubleshoot home network problems. I don't think there is an issue with Mini's in a fully Ethernet configuration with only switches (and not bridges).

You indicate you are skilled and educated in networks which is great but that doesn't mean that a person can't miss something in troubleshooting a problem which is where having someone else look at the problem helps.

It's a simple test to see if your wired devices on the WAP are all showing the same MAC address on your router. Should take you less than a couple of minutes to check and this would confirm bridging mode which I'm pretty sure is the only way that Netgear router can operate as a WAP using the Internet as an uplink.



> Originally Posted by jim1971 View Post
> 
> Thanks, lew.
> 
> ...


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## jim1971 (Oct 11, 2015)

Hi HerronScott,

Yes, I wrote lots of things while trying to figure out the problem. I even decided that swapping my WAP with a switch and moving the WAP elsewhere might fix it. I decided not to try for a few reasons. 

1) It worked using moca just fine. 

2) Most importantly, it is Tivo's responsibility to publish clear requirements on how to install a mini using wired ethernet, including what works and what is not likely to work. If switches are an issue, they need to explain why and how to avoid problems with them. Switches are 1/2 of the network on all networks unless you have a goofy one that's 100% wireless. Personally, I don't understand why it isn't a corporate focus to make a plug and play system since that will sell 1 million more licenses easily.

3) I have an excellent home network, probably better than 95% of those in most homes. It's wired cat6 using a commercial grade router, top quality home switches, and more. No other device has or has ever had issues. Roku, ooma, slingbox, slingplayer, chromecast, DLNA, remote desktop, openvpn (tun and tap) anywhere access, windows server active directory, Dish movies, and more never even burped. Why should I jump through hoops for a tivo mini?

4) Answer me this: If the mini had no problem seeing DVR but the DVR couldn't stream to the mini, how is the WAP the problem? It seems to work just fine in one direction. PS: My ARP tables look great. As I mentioned, customer support couldn't help me.

5) Answering unanswerable challenges from people who will ALWAYS find a new insignificant detail to hammer on is not in my future.

Installing tivo minis is not going to be a lifetime exercise for me, nor is answering challenges like yours. I feel compelled to answer each one because if I don't, some of the trolls from other threads might be emboldened to pile on and diminish the message. Note to potential trolls: All my replies to you will be short, brisk and none of your questions will cause me to waste time, except for what was required to remind you of my opinion of you.

If by chance someone has something of value to add, that is a different story and I would love to read their perspective.

If you have any more issues that relate to your past three posts, please read one of my replies and pretend it was the answer to your newest concern. In the future, all of my replies to you will just be a link back to one of the three replies.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

jim1971 said:


> 4) Answer me this: If the mini had no problem seeing DVR but the DVR couldn't stream to the mini, how is the WAP the problem? It seems to work just fine in one direction. PS: My ARP tables look great. As I mentioned, customer support couldn't help me.


You did ask me to answer this question so I will.

I've already answered this question but you seem to not understand what happens in bridging mode with these home routers despite saying you are skilled and educated in networking. With a "shared" MAC address for the devices behind the WAP, the TiVO would not be able to communicate back to the Mini at layer 2 but the Mini would have no problem connecting to the TiVo. This exactly matches your issue.

Please not that I'm not trying to challenge you and this is not an insignificant detail when it comes to networking. Just trying to help find an answer to your problem which could help others in the same situation. Honestly, I'm not sure I understand why you see this as a challenge and are so defensive.

I'm glad that you have it working with MOCA though.

Scott


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