# Game of Thrones "Lord Snow" 5/1/11 *Spoilers*



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Lot of great scenes in this episode, especially some that were specifically non-book scenes. Cersei with Joffrey was a great view into what kind of parent raises a child like that.

Liked Syrio Forel and Arya's 'dance class'. Looked like Ned was proud, but a bit disturbed by memories of past battles, and bringing his children into the life.

Yoren, the black brother drinking with Tyrion at the Wall, looked nothing like I pictured him. And I liked the Benjen/Tyrion discussion in that scene.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

NOTE - Maybe we can try this. Post freely in this thread

Comments about this episode or past episodes
Speculation about upcoming events (Only for non-book readers)
Comments about how events in this specific episode differ from the books

Post these items in spoiler tags

Comments about anything not specifically mentioned in this or past episodes of the show (upcoming events, historical events, etc...)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought this was the best episode so far and I've liked all of them.

Arya is cool.

I was cheering in my head when Viserys got treated like the dirty, low down dog that he is. The balance of power has certainly changed in that family dynamic.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I was cheering in my head when Viserys got treated like the dirty, low down dog that he is. The balance of power has certainly changed in that family dynamic.


The looks between Rakharo and Irri (maybe?) when Dany was saying don't hurt him were great. They're like, 'seriously?'

One thing that didn't portray well was why Dany wanted to stop. She have to do some business?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I was cheering in my head when Viserys got treated like the dirty, low down dog that he is. The balance of power has certainly changed in that family dynamic.


I agree. I loved that scene!


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> One thing that didn't portray well was why Dany wanted to stop. She have to do some business?





Spoiler



It isn't explained very well. Dany was upset at the poor treatment the Dothraki's were displaying towards their slaves. She felt powerless to do anything about that, so she just stopped the whole procession to take a breather.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Loving this show so far. It's interesting that their seasons last varying number of years, i think they said it was the 9th year of summer at this point? and 100 feet of snow! wow...


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

If there's anything that can make me equally happy as those past two episodes were sad, it's freaking dancing lessons. Several new introductions tonight, but I think maybe it was slightly slower paced so he wasn't as head spinning for non-readers. Carcetti is going to make an awesome Petyr Baelish.

A lot of creative freedom went into this episode, lots of new scenes for non-pov characters, lots of logistical tweaks and changes. I think they did a fairly good job. I loved the scene between Robert, Jaime, and Barristan the Bold. And Tyrion actually peeing off the wall.

Now, book 3/4 spoilers:


Spoiler



They're really changing a lot with the Lannisters to make them more sympathetic. We don't learn about the Mad King saying burn them all until book 3 or 4. Part of Jaime's redemption path I think was helped that there had been some time since he pushed Bran, but they're really pushing to make them sympathetic.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> Carcetti is going to make an awesome Petyr Baelish.


Thank you! I couldn't for the life of me remember where I knew him from and was too lazy to IMDB him. Man, he is chock full of smarmy.


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Like to see Jon Snow take up a leadership role at the Wall. Got to meet Pyp, Grenn & Rast -- Jon fellow Nights Watch recruits. Look like next week we meet the new recruit to the wall too. ;-)

Was good to see Jeor Mormont "Old Bear" (played by James Cosmo of Braveheart fame) as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Not sure they said this but I'll put in spoilers tag


Spoiler



Joer is the father of the exiled knight, Ser Jorah Mormont who is currently with Daenerys Targaryen & the Dothraki



I am especially excited to see Jon Snow and Arya Starks story to unfold.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Loved the dance lessons. Arya and Tyrion have always been my favorite characters. For just about everybody else, at some point or other, I want to do this:

Not a spoiler:


Spoiler


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I don't know if y'all have stumbled upon them yet, but EW.com does really good episode recaps. They are very funny, go over things and clarify events just the tiniest bit with backstory from the books. A couple example from this week (no spoilers here)....when Ned entered the throne room, I thought it looked very beautiful, but I couldn't quite figure out the details of the throne itself. The recap explains what the throne is made of. Also, I was pretty much completely confused by the conversation between Jaime and Ned about someone burning up and screaming and someone being stabbed in the back and so on. The recap clarifies the back story there. Just the right amount of book info, in my opinion.

I thought the lady telling those scary stories to ....dang, what is his name? Bran? .....was hilarious.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Tracy said:


> I thought the lady telling those scary stories to ....dang, what is his name? Bran? .....was hilarious.


Yeah, Old Nan is a hoot. In either version.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

I think they have said that the knight with Dany is Jonah Mormont, and the head of the Night's Watch is Jeor Mormont, so I was thinking they might be father/son.

The small council was Varys, Littlefinger, the old maester, and who else? Was there a Lannister there?

Arya is my favorite character in both the book and the show-- I am so glad they got that character right. 

Not liking Jon Snow quite as much in the show as the book, not sure why.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Doh said:


> I think they have said that the knight with Dany is Jonah Mormont, and the head of the Night's Watch is Jeor Mormont, so I was thinking they might be father/son.
> 
> The small council was Varys, Littlefinger, the old maester, and who else? Was there a Lannister there?
> 
> ...


Renly, the King's younger brother was the other small council member. He got a big hug from Ned.

If you've read the book, don't you know the answer to your first comment?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Doh said:


> Not liking Jon Snow quite as much in the show as the book, not sure why.


He's kind of a whiny dick. That might be why. 

Hopefully, they're just giving him room to grow.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He's kind of a whiny dick. That might be why.


He was in the book also  It took me forever to warm up to the Jon and Dany storylines so maybe it's coloring my view of him.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> Renly, the King's younger brother was the other small council member. He got a big hug from Ned.
> 
> If you've read the book, don't you know the answer to your first comment?


Thanks. I read the books a while ago so I've forgotten a lot detail (but I was also responding to the question about whether the info. belonged in spoilers).

I heard there's some superfan that Martin has been consulting on the new book to make sure he doesn't get details wrong (like the color of a horse or something).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Doh said:


> I heard there's some superfan that Martin has been consulting on the new book to make sure he doesn't get details wrong (like the color of a horse or something).


Reminds me of Stephen King, who hired Robin Furth (who I believe was a grad student at the time) as his research assistant on the Dark Tower books when he resumed work on them, for that exact reason. She also wrote a two-volume guide to the Dark Tower series. She went on to become the co-writer of the Dark Tower comics, and now has a nifty little career going as a comic book writer.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

pjenkins said:


> Loving this show so far. It's interesting that their seasons last varying number of years, i think they said it was the 9th year of summer at this point? and 100 feet of snow! wow...


This is weird. When they say summer is nine years, are we just saying that it hasn't gotten really cold in that long? The nanny mentioned not seeing the sun at all. We're just talking about really heavy cloud cover here? Blizzard conditions, maybe? I'm no scientist, but how can the seasons on a planet not be uniform, however long or short they are?



Aniketos said:


> Carcetti is going to make an awesome Petyr Baelish.


I'm not so sure of that. He was so perfect as an Irish politician in Baltimore--he just keeps looking like he's in costume, to me. I guess I'll get used to it. Is he related to anyone? Hard to believe that anyone in this town is sympathetic to the Starks. Wouldn't he rather have Ned out of the way?



Tracy said:


> I don't know if y'all have stumbled upon them yet, but EW.com does really good episode recaps.


Thanks--this is really funny. And helpful.

I didn't like this episode as much as the first 2, but it explained a lot. I think Ned would be better off to just go back to Winterfell and cut ties with this bunch. The Queen pointed out that it would be impossible to conquer the North. Of course, I guess the White Walkers start there first....


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I get the impression that when they say summer has lasted 9 years and winter is coming that they mean it literally. For whatever reason, the length of seasons is highly variable.

I guess this shouldn't be impossible in a land where the dead appear to walk (beginning of episode 1) and real live dragons existed not-so-very-long-ago.


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> This is weird. When they say summer is nine years, are we just saying that it hasn't gotten really cold in that long? The nanny mentioned not seeing the sun at all. We're just talking about really heavy cloud cover here? Blizzard conditions, maybe? I'm no scientist, but how can the seasons on a planet not be uniform, however long or short they are?


Yeah, I am OK with casting away a scientific answer and just going with it. However, I hope they have been stockpiling grain and other kinds of food for a while. Otherwise, how would people survive darkness for nine years? Won't all the plants and animals die out and all the people will starve? Or is like the show 24 where they never have to eat or use the bathroom?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

BK89 said:


> Yeah, I am OK with casting away a scientific answer and just going with it. However, I hope they have been stockpiling grain and other kinds of food for a while. Otherwise, how would people survive darkness for nine years? Won't all the plants and animals die out and all the people will starve? Or is like the show 24 where they never have to eat or use the bathroom?


Maybe some of the plants are tough enough to survive the long winters. And as long as there are enough plants, animals & humans should survive too, though it's surely much harder.

And, my guess is, they probably eat on this show, but I doubt that they excrete anything.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> This is weird. When they say summer is nine years, are we just saying that it hasn't gotten really cold in that long? The nanny mentioned not seeing the sun at all. We're just talking about really heavy cloud cover here? Blizzard conditions, maybe? I'm no scientist, but how can the seasons on a planet not be uniform, however long or short they are?


A wizard did it. Seriously, don't try to comprehend the length of seasons, they don't make sense. Just know that a long summer foretells an even longer and worse winter. And they're in the middle of a very very long summer.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

stellie93 said:


> This is weird. When they say summer is nine years, are we just saying that it hasn't gotten really cold in that long? The nanny mentioned not seeing the sun at all. We're just talking about really heavy cloud cover here? Blizzard conditions, maybe? I'm no scientist, but how can the seasons on a planet not be uniform, however long or short they are?


Why do you assume they are on a planet? Maybe they are on a disc on the back of a giant space-going turtle. Or something.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Why do you assume they are on a planet? Maybe they are on a disc on the back of a giant space-going turtle. Or something.


Or they could be living in a book.

That's been made into a TV series.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or they could be living in a book.
> 
> That's been made into a TV series.


I thought they lived in the eye of a blue eyed giant named Macomba?


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

They told us... they're inside the eye of a giant. 

This show goes far too quickly, for me. It is sooo good! Wish I had the patience to save them up for mini-marathons.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Doh said:


> Arya is my favorite character in both the book and the show-- I am so glad they got that character right.
> 
> Not liking Jon Snow quite as much in the show as the book, not sure why.


IMHO you've answered your own question. The interaction between Jon and Arya in those early chapters is richer than what they've given the actors to do onscreen.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

murgatroyd said:


> IMHO you've answered your own question. The interaction between Jon and Arya in those early chapters is richer than what they've given the actors to do onscreen.


Gah! BOOK SPOILERS!!!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> One thing that didn't portray well was why Dany wanted to stop. She have to do some business?


yeah, I wondered about that myself!

she seemed upset about how the slave was being treated. So I thought she was going to yell at the guy who hit him. But then she just went into the woods. Didn't make sense.

I'm surprised at how the others have accepted her as the queen. I would have thought there would be some resentment since she's not one of them.

NO WAY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH would the imp (don't know names yet) be stupid enough to give the assassin his own dagger (or even one he won in a bet). There's more to this story.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

question (not looking for a spoiler):

Love the opening credits, btw.

The king's seal(?) is the buck-like thing with the horns
The Starks' is the direwolf
The Blonde brother/sister are the dragons


Are the Lannisters the lion? I seem to recall that there are 4 of those animals in the opening credits and the 4th was a lion or some such thing. If it's not the lannisters, did they show who the 4th belongs to yet?


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

Anubys said:


> Are the Lannisters the lion?


Yes.


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Are the Lannisters the lion? I seem to recall that there are 4 of those animals in the opening credits and the 4th was a lion or some such thing. If it's not the lannisters, did they show who the 4th belongs to yet?


House Lannister is the LION. 
House Tully is the FISH (Catlyns house)

this is a great map of Westeros I found.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

awesome map. Thank you.

Interesting that the Fish belongs to the one house with the LEAST amount of access to the sea!

Have we met anyone from the Eagle/Bird house yet?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Where would the Dothraki be on that map? On the other side of the Narrow Sea? 

Any idea of scale for that map?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Have we met anyone from the Eagle/Bird house yet?


Lady Stark.


cheesesteak said:


> Where would the Dothraki be on that map? On the other side of the Narrow Sea?


Yes.
My understanding is that the island is much, much larger than Britain.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Seems kind of odd that Winterfell is in the middle of nowhere, not close to a significant water source.


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## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

Tracy said:


> I don't know if y'all have stumbled upon them yet, but EW.com does really good episode recaps. They are very funny, go over things and clarify events just the tiniest bit with backstory from the books.


Thanks for the link! I'll look for this every week from now on; they're entertaining and informative.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Where would the Dothraki be on that map? On the other side of the Narrow Sea?
> 
> Any idea of scale for that map?


Well, we know it's month's ride in caravan (which would be slower than just a man on a horse, but still...) from Winterfell to King's Landing.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Lady Stark.


who's Lady Stark? isn't her name Catlyn? and isn't she from the Fish (according to Incognito's post)?

sorry about the questions...I'm terrible with names...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> who's Lady Stark? isn't her name Catlyn? and isn't she from the Fish (according to Incognito's post)?


Oops, he's right. Her connection to the Eyrie is, well, not something that's come up yet. In the books,


Spoiler



her sister married the lord there, and later that's where she flees.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> who's Lady Stark? isn't her name Catlyn?


Yes. And she is a Tully (fish) indeed. Her sister married Jon Arryn (The previous Hand of the King), who is an Eagle. Her sister is the one who sent her the letter in the first episode.

There are some good family trees around - but many of them have text spoilers. I'm trying to find a simple picture with names. If I do, I'll add a link.

Ok. I found one. A quick review of this doesn't reveal anything you shouldn't know yet. However, just to make sure, I'll spoiler the link.



Spoiler



http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr...610917&Signature=mi+HVQOUH+fx/KDCl3iY788vIhg=


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

That's a good tree, the only 'spoilerish' thing is that it shows a few characters who haven't appeared yet, but nothing major.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

mostman said:


> Yes. And she is a Tully (fish) indeed. Her sister married Jon Arryn (The previous Hand of the King), who is an Eagle. Her sister is the one who sent her the letter in the first episode.


I think they did say she had fled Kings Landing and was writing the letter from the Eyrie.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I've printed the map and the family tree pics and will have them next to me when I watch this show from now on. This is fast becoming my favorite show.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

As for the fish/sea thing, as I recall it's a trout, a river fish.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Where would the Dothraki be on that map? On the other side of the Narrow Sea?


I think this question was forgotten. Anyone care to tell us the answer? which sea on the map are they going to have to cross?

Another big thumbs up to the EW recaps. Very funny. I'm halfway through the second recap and I don't recall encountering any spoilers (Thanks, Tracy!)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I think this question was forgotten. Anyone care to tell us the answer? which sea on the map are they going to have to cross?
> 
> Another big thumbs up to the EW recaps. Very funny. I'm halfway through the second recap and I don't recall encountering any spoilers (Thanks, Tracy!)


correction, I think it's the narrow sea, but from where? "somewhere to the right of the map"?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> correction, I think it's the narrow sea, but from where? "somewhere to the right of the map"?


You are correct. The Dothraki storyline takes place east across the Narrow Sea.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

cheesesteak said:


> Seems kind of odd that Winterfell is in the middle of nowhere, not close to a significant water source.


From the book, a minor detail that might never be mentioned in the HBO show but probably explain the location of Winterfell.



Spoiler



Winterfell sits on top several hot springs which aid its survival during the winters.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I've yet to find a good map of the lands across the narrow sea, the "independent" cities.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> I've yet to find a good map of the lands across the narrow sea, the "independent" cities.


This site seems to have scanned in quite a few of the maps from the books. Although the exact one you are looking for doesn't appear to be there. I'll again spoiler this link because, well, you never know 



Spoiler



http://gameofthrones.net/resources/50-maps-of-westeros.html


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## Incognito (May 5, 2004)

A Map of the Free Cities is hard to find. --but-- heres the one i use when Ive read the books.









Not sure if its official however, if it is .... gives you a scope of just how big this "planet" Westeros is on really is.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Love that map.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Anubys said:


> correction, I think it's the narrow sea, but from where? "somewhere to the right of the map"?





dandrewk said:


> I've yet to find a good map of the lands across the narrow sea, the "independent" cities.


Until the HBO show, I had never found a map that actually showed the land across the narrow sea. So the clockwork map in the beginning was when I finally realized it's location in relation to Westeros (which is to the right.)

Hbo has a great map at http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> who's Lady Stark? isn't her name Catlyn? and isn't she from the Fish (according to Incognito's post)?


Is Petyr Baelish called Littlefish because he's from that family too? So that's how he knows Catlyn so well? But he's not listed with her family...


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> Is Petyr Baelish called Littlefish because he's from that family too? So that's how he knows Catlyn so well? But he's not listed with her family...


No, his nickname is Littlefinger. He came from a minor house. He grew up with Cat.



cheesesteak said:


> Any idea of scale for that map?


Westeros is supposed to be as large as South America.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Is Petyr Baelish called Littlefish because he's from that family too? So that's how he knows Catlyn so well? But he's not listed with her family...


As Aniketos said, his nickname is "Littlefinger." If you look at the map that was posted earlier, there are some peninsulas in the northeast portion of The Eyrie called "The Fingers." Baelish comes from the smallest of these.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm still on the fence on this show. I'm totally confused by most of it, and I'm trying to like it, but I'm just not big on this type of show. Nevertheless, I will stick with it for awhile.

Just a question about the book, and I'll spoilerize it just in case:



Spoiler



Is the book written in the third person or first? For some reason, I am picturing the book being written by the dwarf.



One think I always found a bit interesting. This is a fictional land, so, in theory, they could be speaking anything...so why do they have to speak UK English? Or am I missing something and this is supposed to be England? Seems like in all these fantasy type shows, they are always speaking UK English


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Not really a spoiler. The books are written in POV chapters, for various characters. Not first person so much, but you only see from that persons perspective for that chapter.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> Not really a spoiler. The books are written in POV chapters, for various characters. Not first person so much, but you only see from that persons perspective for that chapter.


Thanks for the clarification. Might have to look into these books to listen to in the car. Maybe that will help understand this whole thing. Are they starting the series at book 1?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Might have to look into these books to listen to in the car. Maybe that will help understand this whole thing. Are they starting the series at book 1?


Yes.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I finished book 1 a couple nights ago and told myself I wasn't going to download and read book 2 until next season of the show.

So of course I downloaded book 2 last night and am a hundred pages in already. Who did I think I was fooling?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Or am I missing something and this is supposed to be England?


The map above has a suspiciously familiar look to it.... England is bigger, and so is the Mediterranean Sea--In fact there are way more bodies of water, and Africa is smaller.... Still it could be that portion of earth eons ago or something. Maybe eons in the future after the nuclear holocaust. Probably not....


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Something to remember about the way the books are written (and no, this is not a spoiler) is that because each chapter is told from the perspective of one of the major players, in that chapter you only have whatever information that player has, from whatever source, and it may be different from the information you have in another chapter told from the perspective of a different person.

This means that you are often left to piece together what actually happened from conflicting reports of the same event, or from partial reports that are not comprehensive.

I actually like that quite a bit, but it does take some getting used to. I'm not sure how it will play out on TV, though.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> The map above has a suspiciously familiar look to it.... England is bigger, and so is the Mediterranean Sea--In fact there are way more bodies of water, and Africa is smaller.... Still it could be that portion of earth eons ago or something. Maybe eons in the future after the nuclear holocaust. Probably not....


My point is really more general. I guess it's probably a Hollywood thing, but it seems in all these "fantasy" worlds that seem to have a medieval theme to them the characters all speak UK English. If this is a fictional world, then why? Is that the official language of "fantasy" world?

I guess because it involves a monarchy and knights and all that, it feels more "authentic"!


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I figured the accents were a byproduct of where it was filmed.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ancient Rome usually has a British accent as well. Which makes even less sense, but that's the convention. I suspect if they had an American accent people would think it was "wrong"...


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Or we could go the Mel Gibson way, and have them speak in an authentic, archaic language and use subtitles.


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## Doh (May 18, 2001)

dandrewk said:


> Or we could go the Mel Gibson way, and have them speak in an authentic, archaic language and use subtitles.


It's interesting they have been subtitling the Dothraki so far. Is Dany going to get better at speaking Dothraki, and if so will they continue to use subtitles, or will others start learning more common tongue?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ancient Rome usually has a British accent as well. Which makes even less sense, but that's the convention. I suspect if they had an American accent people would think it was "wrong"...


absolutely.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ancient Rome usually has a British accent as well. Which makes even less sense, but that's the convention. I suspect if they had an American accent people would think it was "wrong"...


It seems that every show/movie that takes place in ancient times (or in this case, perceived ancient times) the actors have a British accent. Hollywood has our ears conditioned to this. You're right, it would probably sound wrong if they all had Joisey accents


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> You're right, it would probably sound wrong if they all had Joisey accents


Don't all Joisey accents sound wrong?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Doh said:


> It's interesting they have been subtitling the Dothraki so far. Is Dany going to get better at speaking Dothraki, and if so will they continue to use subtitles, or will others start learning more common tongue?


Well, she's not reading the subtitles  They hired a linguistics specialist to create the language, so my guess is we'll see more of it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

dandrewk said:


> Don't all Joisey accents sound wrong?


Well I've heard this series described as The Sopranos meets Lord of the Rings....so a Joisey accent would be fitting


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Might have to look into these books to listen to in the car. Maybe that will help understand this whole thing. Are they starting the series at book 1?


Yes they will help clarify on a number of levels. The most obvious is that you will recognize the characters. Last week, there was a minor character that I didn't immediately recognize, because it was scene made up for the show and he wasn't named. But. with that exception, you aren't spending all your time trying to remember who is who.

The other level is that obviously the books are deeper. Since it's told in third person limited POV, you get the character inner monologues, which are usually extensive. For instance, Dany at this point is pretty much all inner dialogue, since she can't understand anything anyone's saying. It helps you see motivations, and lots of "why did they do that" questions that non-book watchers have had, are easily answered by having read the books. (Using Dany as an example again, last week when she made everyone stop, not explained in the show)

I've seen complaints on other boards that some of these characters seem one dimensional, and that's pretty untrue for almost every major character _in the book_, but with such precious screen time lots of subtleties are lost.

One thing that Martin does really well is to introduce a character that you make assumptions on based on past cliches and archetypes. Then, he completely fleshes out that character and subverts your expectations of the character of the course of many chapters, and in some cases many books. I've already noticed the show trying to soften some characters that take a long time to develop in the books. To me, it does a disservice to the characters. They are complex and multi-layered, but to smooth out their faults makes them less of a character. But, since some characters in the book get some undue hate, I guess I can see why they make the changes, and obviously, you can't convey all of that in a 10 hour show without the characters thoughts.

So to make a long post longer, if you're cool having the story "spoiled" for you, then ya read the books, or listen to the audiobooks (Roy Dotrice does a great job narrating them, except for the *shudder* sex scenes). They'll go a long way in helping you understand the show.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ancient Rome usually has a British accent as well. Which makes even less sense, but that's the convention. I suspect if they had an American accent people would think it was "wrong"...


Shouldn't Ancient Rome have an Italian accent?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Aniketos said:


> One thing that Martin does really well is to introduce a character that you make assumptions on based on past cliches and archetypes. Then, he completely fleshes out that character and subverts your expectations of the character of the course of many chapters, and in some cases many books.


You noticed that too huh? I have as well.



Spoiler



I think its particularly profound in the case of Tyrion. The producers of the show seem to be fast tracking his development where it took 3 books to do the same.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

mostman said:


> You noticed that too huh? I have as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


book*s* spoilers


Spoiler



You mean Jaime? I think Tyrion was quickly established to be misunderstood. But with Jaime we flat out had a snippet of part of Jaime's redemption in book 3 last episode with his "burn them all comment." in the last episode.

To a lesser extend Cat, there's a lot of fan hate for her, which I disagree with, and it's pretty obvious she's getting the softening treatment. The only major character I consider a true one dimensional character is Joff.

I even kinda understand Cersei's thing, after the prophecy. Hell, they've even tried to soften her up with last weeks "Why'd you push Bran" speech which was again from book 3 and was read completely differently than the show.

Now Sansa on the other hand, you can't soften her up. I will always hate her  (joking, I even get her flaws despite the amount of time I spend yelling at her in my head.)


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Aniketos said:


> book*s* spoilers
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



No - I meant Tyrion - although you are spot on with Jaimie as well. My guess is that Martin has a ton of input here as it appears to be deliberate and they are, so far, doing a good job.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Well I've heard this series described as The Sopranos meets Lord of the Rings....so a Joisey accent would be fitting


EW called it "Playboy channel meets Lord of the Rings". But this works also.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I've never felt the characters were one dimensional. Anything but, in fact. Martin is a gifted author in giving his characters a unique voice and real motivations.

Third person limited really helps here, as it shows that even the "evil" characters can have sympathetic traits. It's up to the reader to judge them.

As a comparison - look at the character "uniqueness" in "Lord of the Rings". I've read the books twice, and seen the movie countless times. Except for a few minor quirks, I can't tell the hobbits apart, personality wise. Same goes for "Harry Potter" books. 

This all may be personal reactions, but this is why I enjoyed "Song of Ice and Fire" as much as I did (and am).


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

dandrewk said:


> I've never felt the characters were one dimensional. Anything but, in fact. Martin is a gifted author in giving his characters a unique voice and real motivations.
> 
> Third person limited really helps here, as it shows that even the "evil" characters can have sympathetic traits. It's up to the reader to judge them.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind, I was referring to non reader's reaction to the television show, not the book.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Aniketos said:


> Keep in mind, I was referring to non reader's reaction to the television show, not the book.


You keep talking about non-reader reactions to the television show, making assuptions.

I will admit i just started reading the first book, and I'm 100 pages in. But I didn't start reading until I'd seen the first two episodes.

I had no problems understanding what was going on, no more than any other new show I pick up. Even in the first episode, they stated, pretty clearly (perhaps too clearly) who was who, who was banging whom, and what their relationships were.

I haven't been confused in the least bit by the show, I'm reading the books due to recommendations by just about everyone who's read them.  I only wish someone had mentioned them earlier, I'd never heard of the books until I heard wind of the series on a podcast about 6 months ago.

Greg


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

gchance said:


> You keep talking about non-reader reactions to the television show, making assuptions.
> 
> I will admit i just started reading the first book, and I'm 100 pages in. But I didn't start reading until I'd seen the first two episodes.
> 
> ...


I mention it based on posts on other forums I read. Not, to overgeneralize. I know the tivoforum users are better than the average


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

gchance said:


> I only wish someone had mentioned them earlier, I'd never heard of the books until I heard wind of the series on a podcast about 6 months ago.




Just because you hadn't seen them mentioned doesn't mean they weren't mentioned. A search shows they were mentioned in the "Whatcha reading?" thread 6 years ago, and mentioned elsewhere on the board many times since.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Yes indeed, when I ran out of Jordan books to read, I came to TCF's Happy Hour and asked for suggestions. You'll never guess what books were recommended.

Hint - it's a current HBO miniseries.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Just because you hadn't seen them mentioned doesn't mean they weren't mentioned. A search shows they were mentioned in the "Whatcha reading?" thread 6 years ago, and mentioned elsewhere on the board many times since.


Oh wow, 6 years ago! 

I get it though. Names of books and other things are tossed around all over the place. I was more referring to the personal references, friends of mine who read the books years ago and just now mentioned it because there was an ad on HBO. "You should read it! I've read it 15 times the past 3 years, it's great!" That sort of thing.

Greg


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## Duffy Clan (May 10, 2011)

Hey to all of you on this thread that's been asking some repetitive questions I'll sum up most of it here:
1. The Fish (or silver trout) belongs to House Tully (Catelyn Tully is of this house and she is now Lady Stark) and rules over the midlands or Riverlands which is why you see if a fish for the symbol of a house that isn't surrounded by sea, it's surrounded by the fertile lands of the riverlands where there is plenty of fish and farms and inns for travelers through the midlands.
2. The Crowned Stag is not a sigil specific to all kings, it is the sigil to the House of Baratheon (Robert Baratheon is the current King and thus represents this banner) Their words our "Our is the Fury"
3. Yes The Lannister's sigil is the Lion and I believe their words are "Here me Roar" or something gay like that. All of the Houses and their Sigils and Words can be found in a simple google search.
4. One thing you might have wondered as to why the Lannisters are so rich is because their land is rich in precious metals used for just about everything in Westeros. (I don't think this is explained in the show)
5. Winterfell is on top of a series of hot springs and the water from these springs are pumped through pipes in the walls which makes it the best place to be in the North during winter, which is why it is significant.
6. Petyr Baelish is known as "Littlefinger" for a nick name (not littlefish) because he hails from the lands known as the Fingers, which is a small house on the eastern shore just south east of the three sisters islands and east of the Riverlands, on some lands sticking out into the sea like fingers. The reason for his name as explained in the show is because of his small stature (Little) and because he hails from the land of the Fingers, thus "Littlefinger" was his given nickname.
7. Westeros is supposed to be the size of South America and though the lands are believed to be shaped very similar to our world, it is not our world at all and can be placed of center or in any different sizes the author wishes.
8. Essos (where the Dothraki reside) is said to be as big as Eurasia and Asshai the size of Africa.
9. The Dothraki resemble much of our worlds history of Genghis Khan and the Mongols, and the Dothraki Sea in Essos is supposed to be a large grass baren wasteland that the Dothraki rule over much like the Mongols eastern Russia.
10. Here is an unofficial rendering of what is believe to be the geography of this world. It is more accurate to the books maps accuracy than the previous posted world map, but is in no way official and can be very different then what the actual world in this story is. http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1136/immapworld01ans2.gif
11. The actual world map has never been released in this series because the author believes it is only necessary to let the readers see the lands of what their current book is going to cover, and leave the rest as a mysterious teaser to the imagination. It is believed that much, if not all, of Essos is going to be given in a map of the newest book to be released (A Dance With Dragons)
12. The Most interactive map that will help you with watching the series or just knowing or recapping stuff in the book seems to be the interactive HBO map posted before http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/

Anubys I believe this covers all of your questions and more


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> This is weird. When they say summer is nine years, are we just saying that it hasn't gotten really cold in that long? The nanny mentioned not seeing the sun at all. We're just talking about really heavy cloud cover here? Blizzard conditions, maybe? I'm no scientist, but how can the seasons on a planet not be uniform, however long or short they are?


I have not read the books but...

It may be possible that this world has an elliptical orbit that varies. When the planet's orbit is further from the sun that would be winter. As the planet returns closer to the sun that would be summer. The varying lengths of the seasons might be due to other planetary bodies or stellar events changing the shape of the planet's elliptical orbit from time to time. Comets that visit our solar system would be an example of an extreme elliptical orbit.

Or it could just be due to a wizard as someone else mentioned. 

Enjoying this series.


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## Duffy Clan (May 10, 2011)

BK89 said:


> Yeah, I am OK with casting away a scientific answer and just going with it. However, I hope they have been stockpiling grain and other kinds of food for a while. Otherwise, how would people survive darkness for nine years? Won't all the plants and animals die out and all the people will starve? Or is like the show 24 where they never have to eat or use the bathroom?


To answer you and Stellie93, this is a fantasy novel based in a fantasy world that is NOT Earth, and none of their continents are ours (though their general shapes seem to resemble them as assumed). So though our winters and summers and falls and springs may be determined by the tilt of the earth and your location on earth, this is again NOT Earth and so their seasons are very different.

The reason could be due to a sporadic spin cycle on their planet, planet shape, planet size or tilt, the cycle of their oceans (which affects our seasons), or perhaps just very intense weather front from other natural and unexplainable planetary events.

Also the Old Nan had mentioned to Bran in the story how they don't just magically survive the winters, that's why they fear them so much and state "Winter is Coming." In these long winters children were smothered just so their mothers wouldn't have to watch them starve, people who were too unfortunate for proper isolated homes froze to death or were taken by the White Walkers. This is why they say the kids were fortunate to be born in long summers, because in the winters death may come to anyone. That's why the sporadic season are fearful and talked so much about, especially in the north


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## Duffy Clan (May 10, 2011)

or as markbox had said before me with the orbit, thanks for that one mark. I should have thought of that one as well. The main point is, while we may know much about weather on earth and how it works and why, that would mean nothing on another planet because each planet will have it's own unique nature. Which is why fantasy has to ability to do things against the laws of earth, it's because it's not earth.

Hell you could make up a fantasy where people are capable of jumping across seas or states because maybe they have a very weak gravitational force on their planet. That's the wonder of fantasy and the rest of the universe, anything is possible


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