# 1st June 2011



## microbe

New system message just seen, Ta ta TIVO S1 from 1st June 2011.
Time to get busy on the alternate EPG date source then.

www.tivo.com/ukseries1, sadly inaccurate info and only thinks tivo supported by BSKYB in UK.

Very, very sad news.
Paul


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## Fred Smith

Full message:

"On 1 June 2011, TiVo will be discontinuing the service for Series1 TiVo
Recorders in the UK. Your current service will continue to be provided until
that time at no charge. For further information, go to tivo.com/UKSeries1."

Please rate this article. 

Given it a double thumbs down as it is clearly wrong in it's content.

Time to start 'rolling our own' with or without the forums agreement?

As above sad, but I supposed to expected. Will kill sales of subbed units on Ebay very soon.


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## TCM2007

Plenty of notice to get things sorted out, for those who want to.


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## Muttley1900

Very sad, but as others have suggested in various other threads very probable, if not inevitable with the deal with VM etc.

As you say, 3 1/2 months notice to quit is quite a bit of time. So time to start seeing what else is out there.

I can't say I'm happy with this, but i'm not bitter either, as I think Tivo have done well to have carried on supporting a product circa 11 years old that has not being actively sold for the last 8 or 9 years.

Oh well, time to look at alternatives (as VM is not an option where i live), and I suppose with a new modern box, of whatever description, is going to be somewhat smaller than the old Thomson Tivo, so some benefit there.

J.


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## ptruman

Ditto that - it marks the "likely lifespan" for any unhacked unit, or units which people don't want to play with too much.

Mine will likely hit eBay (with all the provisos of the upcoming changes) once the S3 is here and I'm sure it works!


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## steveroe

:down::down::down:

A sad day.

Time to start looking at Freeview+ boxes (no cable or sky here).


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## CarlWalters

Extremely disappointing.


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## katman

:down::down::down::down::down::down:
:down:



Very sad day indeed


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## Automan

Indeed, but better than April 1st.

Still no real Tivo alternatives in my area other than DIY setups with Windows Media Center.

I guess their resale value will now be rock bottom?

Automan.


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## smatson

Very sad, time for the bin 5 x tivos ?


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## redddevil

So what did the term 'Lifetime subscription' actually mean then?
I and my Tivos are all still alive after all.
Not having the option of VM even if I wanted to this is a real kick in the teeth.
Surely they could provide data via internet at least...


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## katman

redddevil said:


> Surely they could provide data via internet at least...


Only to people who have hacked their Tivos and fitted a network card. Many of the still working Series 1 machines (mine included) still dial up with a daily call


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## warrenrb

Worst. Valentines message. Ever.


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## mikerr

katman said:


> Only to people who have hacked their Tivos and fitted a network card. Many of the still working Series 1 machines (mine included) still dial up with a daily call


'tis possible over dialup too - but you'd need to use a different drive image, or buy a preconfigured drive with it already setup...


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## Bablefish

So what exactly does lifetime mean.
My tivo is still going strong and in not even close to comming to the end of its life.

Surely Tivo can't just switch us off!


As I'm in a virgin area, I'll happily take a new box in exchange!


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## AMc

Boo


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## jonphil

I'm getting a new Tivo, but as my Series 1 is still going strong and recording things in the bedroom I'm very sad to see this end.
Hopefully someone will easily be able to provide TV guide data for networked Tivo's 

*edit - so is it only the phone number ending and we will still get data via the internet?


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## PhilG

I just sent this message to [email protected]



> I have just received the latest message on my UK tivo
> 
> "On 1 June 2011, TiVo will be discontinuing the service for Series1 TiVo Recorders in the UK. Your current service will continue to be provided until that time at no charge. For further information, go to tivo.com/UKSeries1."
> 
> And the text at the link says "The newest generation of TiVo PVR and service is now available from Virgin Media. Virgin Media is extending a special offer to current TiVo Series1 customers within a Virgin Media cabled area so that they can take advantage of the Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo. To take advantage of this offer, please go to www.virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade."
> 
> I am NOT in a Virgin Media cabled area and therefore do not have the option to "take advantage" of the latest Tivo incarnation in the UK
> 
> So you are just cutting me adrift
> 
> This is a pity as Tivo has been the centre of my TV viewing experience for over 10 years
> 
> Is there really no way to provide continuing guide data to the remaining UK subscribers?
> 
> Yours disappointedly
> 
> Phil Grainger


I'd like to ask everyone affected by this to do the same - send a polite, but disappointed, message to Tivo bemoaning what they have done to us

It'll probably not change anything, but you never know - if we don't complain nothing will happen for sure


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## Automan

http://www.timeanddate.com/counters...month=06&year=2011&hour=00&min=00&sec=00&p0=0

Automan.


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## PhilG

jonphil said:


> so is it only the phone number ending and we will still get data via the internet?


 I guess we won't know until June 2nd 

But I imagine they do mean that the provision of guide data will cease as of June 1st


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## redddevil

I have 2 with network cards and 2 working via dial up and none of them has yet been pronounced dead so as stated above what does 'lifetime' service actually mean?
Also if I want to complain whom do I complain to? Is it Tivo, VM or BSkyB?


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## spitfires

Fret not - they _have_ generously given us 3.5 months to sort out a replacement.

Once our alternative is up and running it just means you will need to buy a shiny new hard disc kit to install and away you go. Think of the benefits: brand new disc; more recording capacity; mode 0; 2 hour live buffer; etc. :up:


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## jonphil

spitfires said:


> Fret not - they _have_ generously given us 3.5 months to sort out a replacement.
> 
> Once our alternative is up and running it just means you will need to buy a shiny new hard disc kit to install and away you go. Think of the benefits: brand new disc; more recording capacity; mode 0; 2 hour live buffer; etc. :up:


How would that be different? Is someone going to be able to provide the guide data though another method. I hope so, but at the same time wouldn't be keen on paying.


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## spitfires

jonphil said:


> so is it only the phone number ending and we will still get data via the internet?


Well since TiVo don't support getting your guide data via the network in the UK (hint: they didn't supply the network card) then it's all of it - dial-up or network card.


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## spitfires

jonphil said:


> Is someone going to be able to provide the guide data though another method.


Yes.


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## AMc

I've just fed back on their article and emailed them this...



> Dear Tivo,
> 
> I've been a happy Tivo customer for 9 years. In that time I was responsible for introducing 4 other loyal users who are still using their S1 every day. I don't live in a cabled area and have no option to use Virgin Media's cable TV services nor do my Tivo loving friends.
> 
> I am a Virgin Media customer using their DSL & telephone product but I don't have the option to use your new offering.
> I know from the Tivo Community site that your company have hardware that uses digital over the air (DTT) or digital satellite (DSAT) services in other international markets.
> 
> I have just read that you intend to discontinue the EPG on the 1st of June leaving me with a useless series 1 and no upgrade path.
> 
> I would like you to reconsider and continue to offer the EPG service or better still work with Virgin Media to bring a new offering that works with either Freesat or Freeview channel line ups - both those lineups are a subset of VM channels.
> 
> I look forward to hearing from you.


Perhaps we can make someone reconsider this course of action, there's no harm in trying IMHO.


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## spitfires

Bablefish said:


> So what exactly does lifetime mean.
> My tivo is still going strong and in not even close to comming to the end of its life.
> 
> Surely Tivo can't just switch us off!


Not what _you_ think it means 

From Clause 15 of your Agreement


> TiVo reserves the right to terminate your account and this Agreement for any other reason or no reason if TiVo gives you at least 30 days advance notice of such termination.


"Lifetime" means (and always has meant) a rolling 30-day period.


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## TCM2007

redddevil said:


> So what did the term 'Lifetime subscription' actually mean then?


It meant that you didn't pay any monthly fees for as long as the service existed, as opposed to the alternative, which was to pay £10 a month.


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## sad_tivo_man

TCM2007 said:


> Plenty of notice to get things sorted out, for those who want to.


But what about those who can't?

TiVo Inc suck....


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## sad_tivo_man

redddevil said:


> ...
> Also if I want to complain whom do I complain to? Is it Tivo, VM or BSkyB?


TiVo Inc. http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ Please post a comment...TiVo's attitude really sucks bigtime. They could have kept the service going.


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## healeydave

I'm amazed at some of the initial calm replies, my gut instinct on the news was that people would be furious and it would provoke a lot of bad publicity for TiVo.

If TiVo's terms were to provide EPG for as long as the service existed and they are the ones pulling the plug, perhaps a refund of is in order?

I wonder if they think pulling the plug on the series 1 will have some sort of forcible upgrade effect to the Virgin product?
It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding TiVo Inc have regarding the cable availability in the UK. 
I am positive anyone still running a UK Tivo would probably upgrade by default if they were able to, so tactics like this are completely un-necessary!


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## PhilG

sad_tivo_man said:


> TiVo Inc. http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ Please post a comment...TiVo's attitude really sucks bigtime. They could have kept the service going.


 My comment is awaiting moderation - let's see if it actually gets posted.....


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## Ian_m




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## sad_tivo_man

healeydave said:


> ....
> It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding TiVo Inc have regarding the cable availability in the UK.
> ....


They have been told but in their arrogance/naivety/stupidity have chosen to ignore it.

Wonder if in a few years time, when the gloss has gone off their 'wedding' with VM and something newer and shinier behoves into view, that TiVo Inc will dump their VM customer base as well?


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## AMc

My polite comment is also awaiting moderation.


> For those who cannot sign up for Virgin Media's cable service, please contact Virgin Media directly for other special offers.


When Virgin's sales guy rang me there were no offers available for those of us outside their TV service area - even though I'm a ADSL and phone customer.


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## ramtops

jonphil said:


> How would that be different? Is someone going to be able to provide the guide data though another method. I hope so, but at the same time wouldn't be keen on paying.


So you'd like people to do it all for you free of charge? What contribution might you make?


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## Glen

i sincerely hope that tivo send one final update to our boxes that will turn off the nag screens that come with with the reduced functionality. Mine would make an excellent CCTV DVR! sad news tho! would love to have the new tivo, but virgin aren't in my area, and apparently have no intention of being so either. I just hope that Sky do something (which i doubt) to make my sky hd box at least someway similar to what tivo can do! the end of an era!


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## ramtops

sad_tivo_man said:


> TiVo Inc. http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/ Please post a comment...TiVo's attitude really sucks bigtime. They could have kept the service going.


Have commented thus:

"Ive been a loyal Tivo user for ten years or more, paying you a tenner a month all that time for the best PVR ever. And now youre withdrawing it 

I live in Kingston-upon-Hull. There is no Virgin Media here; therell never be Virgin Media here, and so you have cut off a service with which we have been extremely happy, and were happy to continue paying for.

Please recosider this decision  Virgins cable coverage is not that wide, and lots of existing customers are being set adrift. Its a sad day."


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## spitfires

PhilG said:


> My comment is awaiting moderation - let's see if it actually gets posted.....


+1. Can't see any of them ever getting published.

Please do send them in though - we need the blinkered ostriches in Tivo Towers to appreciate the depth of anger and resentment that is brewing in our normally stoic British tea-cups.


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## Glen

i've had my say!


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## TCM2007

They could have sent you cheques every month too I suppose.

You got years of service from an obsolete product which went off sale eight years ago. That's excellent customer service above and beyond what is necessary, not "sucking".


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## Queb

Shame to see the service end, but we've all been on borrowed time for a number of years ? But I do agree that TiVo probably dont know there isnt a blanket coverage on VM.


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## TCM2007

Glen said:


> i sincerely hope that tivo send one final update to our boxes that will turn off the nag screens that come with with the reduced functionality. Mine would make an excellent CCTV DVR! !


I believe they promised to do that some years ago. Worth reminding them.


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## PhilG

spitfires said:


> the depth of anger and resentment that is brewing in our normally stoic British tea-cups.


 or if not anger, then at least that there are those of us with NO SENSIBLE EQUIVALENT CHOICE


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## katman

I commented as well, including the fact that that I am less than 50 feet from the cable and Virgin WONT connect me because they say its too expensive !


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## Glen

omg! i would be getting hold of Richard Branson on that one! That must be so frustrating having it that close but so far!


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## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> You got years of service from an obsolete product ......


Never-the-less, they are stopping a service customers paid to be provided for what they thought would continue whilst their systems remained operational.

I think because the system is (purposely) severely crippled by design in the absence of an EPG makes this argument not so clean cut as you make out.

The fact that they left the UK high & dry with an obsolete product was also not the fault of the customer and yet many stayed faithful!


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## DB70+

I too am within 50feet of the VM cable as as we are in aprivate road Vm will not connect.

I agree we have had the benefit of an obsolete product, but that does not mean it has no value.

Surely if they have announced they are stopping the feed it would not be illegal to discuss a legitimate alternative.

D


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## TCM2007

Well I can't believe that once it became clear that TiVo had abandoned the UK in 2002/3 that anyone thought that "Lifetime" meant forever. Well, I can believe that some people would because people can be quite odd about these things sometimes.

Lifetime was a marketing tool, and it meant "no monthly sub on that unit, ever" not "service will continue forever". It was commitment on payment, not a commitment on service.

If I'd been told in 2000 that my £199 would buy 10 years of service worth £1,200 I'd have thought that a very fair deal.


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## Glen

It would be like Microsoft releasing the Xbox 360, and then effectively bricking the original xbox console from working anymore!


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## Glen

TCM2007 said:


> Well I can't believe that once it became clear that TiVo had abandoned the UK in 2002/3 that anyone thought that "Lifetime" meant forever. Well, I can believe that some people would because people can be quite odd about these things sometimes.
> 
> Lifetime was a marketing tool, and it meant "no monthly sub on that unit, ever" not "service will continue forever". It was commitment on payment, not a commitment on service.
> 
> If I'd been told in 2000 that my £199 would buy 10 years of service worth £1,200 I'd have thought that a very fair deal.


true, but TiVo themselves said that they would continue to support the S1 boxes and had no plans to change this. If the deal with Virgin hadn't happened, the service wouldn't be being stopped.


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## TCM2007

More like Nintendo launching the Wii and bricking the SNES.


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## TCM2007

Glen said:


> true, but TiVo themselves said that they would continue to support the S1 boxes and had no plans to change this. If the deal with Virgin hadn't happened, the service wouldn't be being stopped.


That's probably true, although there would have come a point eventually when they stopped it.


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## Glen

TCM2007 said:


> That's probably true, although there would have come a point eventually when they stopped it.


I have an original Xbox and it still works. They aren't physically allowed to prevent me from playing games which i have purchased for the console no matter how old it is, in the console. My Sega Master System still works, despite the fact that Sega no longer do games consoles.


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## Glen

on a note of virgin not installing for people


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## DB70+

But rather than just stopping the feed, why not change the link to another EPG, something like Digiguide and let the user pay the subscription direct to the EPG supplier.

Everybody happy.


D


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## Glen

does anyone know of any online site where i can find out where the nearest cable link is>?


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## TCM2007

Glen said:


> I have an original Xbox and it still works. They aren't physically allowed to prevent me from playing games which i have purchased for the console no matter how old it is, in the console. My Sega Master System still works, despite the fact that Sega no longer do games consoles.


Somewhere in the attic is an analogue Sky box. I'm sure I have a pre-GSM phone in a drawer. There's a portable analogue TV in there too. All obsolete tech, now bricked because the services they relied on no longer exist. Happens to everything eventually!


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## TCM2007

DB70+ said:


> But rather than just stopping the feed, why not change the link to another EPG, something like Digiguide and let the user pay the subscription direct to the EPG supplier.
> 
> Everybody happy.
> 
> D


It's worth asking the Q, but it's probably contractual with Virgin that no-one else offers the TiVo service for sale. Certainly the "exclusive" word was much bandied about.


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## Glen

TCM2007 said:


> Somewhere in the attic is an analogue Sky box. I'm sure I have a pre-GSM phone in a drawer. There's a portable analogue TV in there too. All obsolete tech, now bricked because the services they relied on no longer exist. Happens to everything eventually!


the sky analogue box relies on the analogue sky system as the phone relies on the analogue network. neither can operate stand alone. my xbox original can quite happily run games without needing any outside networks or connections.


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## TCM2007

Indeed, and Tivo is of the Sky box type, not the Xbox type.


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## taid

Currently I pay around £25 / month for my broadband, all my telephone calls (including 0845 and mobile) and my TV (Freesat) ..

Virgin is connected to the house, but to get even just the minimum TV package with the new Tivo subscription would be too expensive for me .. 

So, byebye Tivo .. been nice knowing you ..


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## Glen

TCM2007 said:


> Indeed, and Tivo is of the Sky box type, not the Xbox type.


indeed, but the tivo can run without the epg, altho its nice to have! lol this is swings and roundabouts really isnt it lol


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## Jolltax

Sad day, my wife is virtually in tears about this.

I am just angry but I guess 10 years of good service is more than I have had out of virtually any other electrical device in my house.

Right, I guess I better start looking for an alternative.........

Jolltax


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## alek

We can't let s1 die. it's just too good and apart from the initial outlay for the lifetime sub, free.

I am sure there is a way to get a epg but it will need more savvy than I have. It also needs to be a community effort and open source. 

What can I do to help. ?

alek


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## katman

Still waiting for the moderators to approve the comments we have made on the Tivo blog but they list customer service as being 7am to 7pm Pacific time so it could be at least 3pm uk time before anything gets approved... or not as the case maybe !!


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## taid

What freesat box has the best subset of TiVo function ..??????


any ideas?


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## sad_tivo_man

TCM2007 said:


> Somewhere in the attic is an analogue Sky box. I'm sure I have a pre-GSM phone in a drawer. There's a portable analogue TV in there too. All obsolete tech, now bricked because the services they relied on no longer exist. Happens to everything eventually!


But these changes were UK-wide and applied to the whole country. TiVO could have accepted that there would be many users who were not on the cable footprint. Their message before last actually acknowledged that FFS but I think you are right in that they got 'spun' a story from VirginMedia as to how extensive their cable coverage was.,,,aka marketing bulls**t.


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## Glen

i've just entered a virgin support chat and asked about how i could get cable where in my town and told her where i lived. She said she couldn't comment yet as they have no update, and that they are working on it! Not sure whether i have been fobbed off or its actually in progress. hmm!


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## DX30

Sad news, I have enjoyed my time with TiVo.

From a personal point of view this means I will need to start using the Sky Planner for SD as well as HD programmes (my TiVo currently controls a Sky HD box and records all my SD). Not nearly as nice a UI but I'll get used to it. I might need to fit a bigger hard drive - I wonder if I can bring myself to cannibalise the 1TB I fitted to my TiVo.... 

Longer term if YouView works out I'll probably cancel my Sky sub and switch to a new YouView PVR.

The 1st June will probably be more of an issue for my mother. She isn't in a Virgin area, and anyway as a pensioner the current Virgin TiVo pricing would be prohibative for her. I did buy her a Humax Freeiew+ pvr a year or so ago as a precaution against the TiVo hardware breaking down so I guess she'll need to get used to that.


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## katman

I submitted a complaint to Virgin about them refusing to connect me and now effectively depriving my of my current tivo


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## sad_tivo_man

Queb said:


> ....But I do agree that TiVo probably dont know there isnt a blanket coverage on VM.


Yes, they do. They have been told time and time again but they refuse to listen. They even acknowledged this in the message before last where they said 'For those of you on the cable footprint, dig into your wallets and pay up for a new box that you don't want and a very expensive monthly sub'. OK..the last bit I made up.


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## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> It's worth asking the Q, but it's probably contractual with Virgin that no-one else offers the TiVo service for sale. Certainly the "exclusive" word was much bandied about.


I too am concerned about this, sometimes I wonder how sensible these American companies are when they go into these contracts, I seriously doubt TiVo ever really needed to agree "exclusivity" in this arrangement. Its not like Virgin had another superior DVR interface company to get into bed with and they definitely needed something to trump sky+ 

I hope and presume the term "exclusive" is relevant to new product offerings anyway, not pre-existing.

Anyway, nothing ventured, nothing gained, I have opened dialog with a contact of mine at TiVo Inc. 
I done plenty for them in the past, so I'm hoping they will at least pay me lip service.


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## AMc

It would be a bit less irritating if Tivo didn't continue to operate a series 1 EPG in the US.
I can't believe that the EPG costs are prohibitive so I suspect its a contractual thing and it may even be Virgin Media who are responsible for turning off the tap.

I consider my Tivo to be one of the best things I've ever bought - it has been in daily operation for almost 9 years - I gave Tivo Inc &#163;199 way back when and nothing after that so I can't consider it bad value for money. I appreciate this will be more sour for monthly subscribers.

I hope that if Tivo can't be persuaded to reconsider they at least have the courtesy to turn off all the nag screens and allow us to set the clock for manual recordings - ideally without bricking the LBA kernel.


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## sad_tivo_man

taid said:


> What freesat box has the best subset of TiVo function ..??????
> 
> any ideas?


I have no experience of FreeSat boxes but have tried three other normal Freeview PVR's. None come anywhere close to TiVo and certainly none have the concept of TiVo's suggestions (not that I've ever used that).


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## alextegg

Surely there's an opportunity here? (I think some including spitfures have already alluded to it, but also for the likes of healeydave and others who earn from the TiVo in its current form).

I could see someone providing the guide data on a feed somewhere, and then rolling a TiVo image on a HD that accesses it and offering it for sale

I'd be interested, otherwise the old TiVo doesn't have any value and I'm sure it's good for another 10 years


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## cwaring

Queb said:


> But I do agree that TiVo probably dont know there isnt a blanket coverage on VM.


You really think that two businesses would enter into a contract with one without knowing as much about each other as possible?  Seriously? 



katman said:


> I commented as well, including the fact that that I am less than 50 feet from the cable and Virgin WONT connect me because they say its too expensive !


That sounds seriously wrong. I'd certainly press them further on the issue.



Glen said:


> omg! i would be getting hold of Richard Branson on that one!


And, as he's only a minority share-holder, exactly what would you expect him to do about it? 



DB70+ said:


> I too am within 50 feet of the VM cable as as we are *in a private road* VM will not connect.


This is the problem my parent's had when I first looked into them getting cable. However, as it is now Council-owned there was no problem.

It's a wayleave issue.


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## healeydave

alextegg said:


> Surely there's an opportunity here? (I think some including spitfures have already alluded to it, but also for the likes of healeydave and others who earn from the TiVo in its current form).
> 
> I could see someone providing the guide data on a feed somewhere, and then rolling a TiVo image on a HD that accesses it and offering it for sale
> 
> I'd be interested, otherwise the old TiVo doesn't have any value and I'm sure it's good for another 10 years


There are options, official and un-official. The reason I have emailed Tivo regarding this is because it would be nice to think (contractual obligations permitting) that Tivo would like to help and support those users not able to benefit from the Virgin Media product. After-all we have been very loyal and no doubt we would all switch and support the new Virgin/Tivo venture if we could but I like many others have already verified from Virgin themselves that there are categorically no plans for expansion into my city!


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## Leif_Davidsen

Can someone say whether once we lose the service, whether we can use the manual recording on Tivo to set recurring recording times? Most of our recordings are season passes and while we would look to move to some new/unofficial EPG support, if that isn't available we might settle for Tivo as a manual recorder - at least until next year when we are due to get Freeview and may have more options for a longer term solution - whether a Freeview or Freesat PVR or maybe some custom PC media center


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## cwaring

sad_tivo_man said:


> ...they got 'spun' a story from VirginMedia as to how extensive their cable coverage was.,,,aka marketing bulls**t.


Actually, it's that comment that is obviously BS


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## healeydave

cwaring said:


> You really think that two businesses would enter into a contract with one without knowing as much about each other as possible?  Seriously?


Its not so much that, its the fact that aside form Sky, Virgin was really the only option for a new partnership that was ever going to be on the table (as a pay-tv service was always going to be absolutely necessary, ruling out FreeView).

Unfortunately, neglecting to cover one's bases with a country like ours where-by the cable infrastructure is pretty much static as it stands (and has stood still for over a decade) is a little naive. In the USA, all new building developments have cable run is as a standard service along with the sewers, water & electricity etc. These developments often also consist of hundreds of homes at a time. Thats not how we roll in the UK, extending the cable infrastructure on this island is cost prohibitive in the main and explains the last decade of non-expansion.


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## sad_tivo_man

cwaring said:


> Actually, it's that comment that is obviously BS


Clearly you've never worked for an American company.


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## PhilG

DB70+ said:


> But rather than just stopping the feed, why not change the link to another EPG, something like Digiguide and let the user pay the subscription direct to the EPG supplier.
> 
> Everybody happy.
> 
> D


Except the "life time" people who would, perhaps rightly, not be happy about paying for a replacement service to the original one that was free

And perhaps this is part of the problem

Whatever TIVO inc do, they have to be cognisant of the contract they have with lifetime subs

So continuing the service "as is" (even reintroducing the monthly sub for non-lifetimers) would be viable

Introducing a replacement service and expecting everyone to pay might be a legal setp too far


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## healeydave

cwaring said:


> Actually, it's that comment that is obviously BS


Playing devils advocate here, I've seen some coverage maps in the past that look mighty more impressive than reality. A bit like those wonderful cellular mobile coverage maps we saw by each service provider in the late 90's


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## PhilG

healeydave said:


> Anyway, nothing ventured, nothing gained, I have opened dialog with a contact of mine at TiVo Inc.
> I done plenty for them in the past, so I'm hoping they will at least pay me lip service.


Whatever I can do to help - just ask


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## ramtops

AMc said:


> I can't believe that the EPG costs are prohibitive so I suspect its a contractual thing and it may even be Virgin Media who are responsible for turning off the tap.


I suspect this may very well be the case - Virgin would have wanted exclusivity, and it was a way for Tivo to get back into the UK market.

I'm sure they would have done due diligence on the deal too, but 50% of the Virgin coverage is a damn sight better than 0% of anything else.


----------



## DB70+

But as most lifetimers have had a very good deal for sometime they may prefer to pay for a contracted service if that was the only alternative. I would.


----------



## taid

sad_tivo_man said:


> I have no experience of FreeSat boxes but have tried three other normal Freeview PVR's. None come anywhere close to TiVo and certainly none have the concept of TiVo's suggestions (not that I've ever used that).


It's the wishlist that I would miss most .. TiVo's suggestions occasionally throw up something that I've missed,

Also, the only freexxx box I have had contact with didn't automaticaly delete to make way for new recordings, which was a B******Y pain


----------



## taid

DB70+ said:


> But as most lifetimers have had a very good deal for sometime they may prefer to pay for a contracted service if that was the only alternative. I would.


Wouldn't mind paying the phonecall plus a bit

but it ain't gonna happen .. from June Tivo 1 is dead and beginning to smell


----------



## dmd

I am gutted about all of this.

Yes I know I have had extremely good value for my lifetime sub, but that's not the issue. I would happily have shelled out another few hundred quid for a series 2, and probably a series 3 too if they had been available here. TiVo could have had a lot more of my money and I would have been happy about that.

The fact is that the best PVR is being killed. I still absolutely love my TiVo and now feel lost at the prospect of not being able to use it.

If someone is about to provide a new EPG, then I'll be a customer for sure. I don't want a Toppy, or a Humax, or anything from Sky. I am miles from the nearest VM connection so that's never gonna be an option.

Still don't understand why TiVo won't provide an untethered new model like the Aussie one.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

dmd said:


> .....
> Still don't understand why TiVo won't provide an untethered new model like the Aussie one.


Because then maybe no-one would buy the nice 'Shiny Thing' from VM.


----------



## Glen

cwaring said:


> You really think that two businesses would enter into a contract with one without knowing as much about each other as possible?  Seriously?
> 
> That sounds seriously wrong. I'd certainly press them further on the issue.
> 
> And, as he's only a minority share-holder, exactly what would you expect him to do about it?
> 
> This is the problem my parent's had when I first looked into them getting cable. However, as it is now Council-owned there was no problem.
> 
> It's a wayleave issue.


seeing as they are paying him to use the Virgin name, it could be seen as damaging to the brand


----------



## dmd

Glen said:


> i've had my say!


So have I.


----------



## 18MM

PhilG said:


> Whatever TIVO inc do, they have to be cognisant of the contract they have with lifetime subs


Has any lifetime subscription holder checked the terms and conditions to see whether Tivo can withdraw the service?


----------



## PhilG

18MM said:


> Has any lifetime subscription holder checked the terms and conditions to see whether Tivo can withdraw the service?


Yes - to both questions (unfortunately)


----------



## kitschcamp

The good news is that if you do end up rolling your own, suggestions, wish lists and season passes still work. 

Incredibly annoying. But at least there is time if there is the will to sort something.


----------



## Teepee

It's clearly a case of "if you can't beat it, shut it down". I dare say that has been VM's intention from the start. Let's hope that a new source of guide date is made available soon, along with a modified disc image. Either way, I will not be dealing with VM.


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

Deleted.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

VirginMediaPhil said:


> ....
> I'm sorry but in my life, I have much more important things going on with my family (especially at this moment in time) to cry over.


Well, bully for you.


----------



## ALanJay

taid said:


> What freesat box has the best subset of TiVo function ..??????
> 
> any ideas?


I have a Panasonic Freesat PVR and frankly its user interface is crap - slow and unwieldily it makes Sky+ look fantastic.

It is a real shame that TiVo have taken this attitude as the EPG data in TiVo format will still be around for the new VM machines it seems unproductive that it can't be collected (at a cost if there is) by people who can't upgrade because they aren't in a Virgin Media Cable area.

I'm sure many if not most of the people in Virgin Media areas will upgrade but then again I think Virgin Media missed a trick in not making the box work as a digital terrestrial box and IPTV box as well as the primary cable solution.

But it is surely big company politics getting in the way of sensible policies.


----------



## Gavin

Is this not Carte Blanche to hack the service as Oz has been doing for years. 

It was only the fact the UK had a service that kept the gentlemans agreement running that listing data would not be done like this to prevent potential loss of income to TiVo if the listings were free.

My tivos in the loft I have virgin media but I douobt I'll pay any more to get the TiVo service form them.


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

sad_tivo_man said:


> Well, bully for you.


Yeah, I've deleted it. My feelings came out a bit wrong in that post. Sorry.


----------



## =CM=

Can I add my  to the afore-posted too? I'm in a VM cable area (uncertainty as the ripped-open boxes show 860MHz analogue gear) but the cost of VM does not tempt me in any way (and for those worried about Beardie, he's expert at renting his red brand without worrying about the plebs).

After June we'll probably go the route of a DTT SD/HD big disc box, missing the season passes and general intelligence of Tivo version 1, and wondering why old Tivo gear is still lightyears ahead of old "believe in better (my arse)" and other inferior offerings.


----------



## =CM=

Can I add my  to the afore-posted too? I'm in a VM cable area (uncertainty as the ripped-open boxes show 860MHz analogue gear) but the cost of VM does not tempt me in any way (and for those worried about Beardie, he's expert at renting his red brand without worrying about the plebs).

After June we'll probably go the route of a DTT SD/HD big disc box, missing the season passes and general intelligence of Tivo version 1, and wondering why old Tivo gear is still lightyears ahead of old "believe in better (my arse)" and other inferior offerings.


----------



## Pete77

I am not the least bit calm but utterly furious and when I have completed filing these six ghastly 600 page long Tribunal bundles I will be firing off missives to the Tivo board and to journalists covering the Virgin Media Tivo launch highlighting that this is totally unacceptable as Virgin UK has no replacement on offer for anyone living outside Virgin cable land.

Writing to the Sky customer support address is a complete waste of time. Its the board directors of Tivo Inc in the USA and of Virgin Media that you need to concentrate your efforts on. Obviously Sky aren't going to care.

Tivo and Virgin are extremely stupid to try this on now when the Virgin Tivo is still embryonic and they need all the good press that they can possibly get. But now the headline is "Tivo stabs customers outside Virgin Cable land in the back and leaves them with no replacement Tivo Service" and attention is drawn big time to the paucity of coverage of the Virgin Cable tv network. I bet some cretinous Virgin marketing Director who reckons this will force another 3,000 customers with a Tivo S1 who didn't want to pay the extra to sign up to Virgin cable but doesn't care about those of us not in the Virgin cable land is behind this. However I do think those of you who went on and on about coming up with our own replacement data feed and/or demanding a statement from Tivo on the position of the S1 Service helped to sign our own death warrants.

If they had done this in to two to three years time when the Virgin Tivo was well established and Freesat HD a great deal better opton than it is now then may be it would have been tolerated. I think serious consideration should also be given to possible ways to hack the Virgin S4 Tivo to work with DTT or satellite tuners and UK guide data and/or to importing and modifying the Australian Freesat model to provide a Freeview/Freesat HD service.

If lots of us start posting in the US Tivocommunity and other Tivo discussing forums over in the USA about this then I think its going to make quite a lot more noise. Four months is long enough to get the decision to terminate postponed for another two or three years.

Here are the people at Tivo Inc who should hang their heads in shame and who you need to relay your feelings on this matter to:-

From my post on 1st July this year at http://tcf2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=440478



Code:


Tom Rogers CEO/President [email][email protected][/email]
Jim Barton Co-Founder [email][email protected][/email]
Joe Miller SVP Consumer Sales/Distribution [email][email protected][/email]
Mark Roberts SVP Consumer Products/Operations [email][email protected][/email]
Anna Brunelle VP Controller & Treasurer [email][email protected][/email]
Jeff Klugman, Senior Vice President, Service Provider Division [email][email protected][/email]

See also http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/tivo/files/03.01TiVoCompanyBackgrounder.pdf

Company Facts Founded: 1997 Publicly traded: NASDAQ: TIVO Headquarters: Alviso, CA

Subscribers: 2.7 million

*Key Members of the Executive Team*

Tom Rogers, President and CEO
Jim Barton, TiVo Co-Founder, Senior Vice President and CTO
Anna Brunelle, Chief Financial Officer
Jeff Klugman, Senior Vice President and General Manager, Service Provider Division
Mark Roberts, Senior Vice President, Consumer Products and Operations

*Board Members*

Randy Komisar, Partner, Kleiner Perkins
Mark W. Perry, General Partner, New Enterprise Associates
Joe Uva, President and CEO, OMD Worldwide
David Zaslav, President, NBC Cable
Jeffrey T. Hinson, Independent Consultant
Tom Wolzien, Chairman, Wolzien LLC
William Cella, CEO of The Cella Group
LLC Heidi Roizen, CEO of Skinny Little Things LLC


----------



## MrNoisy

Time for me to post a message after many trouble free TiVo years!

It's very sad, but given it cost less than my PS3 and lasted 3 times longer it seems it was pretty good value nevertheless!

Time to check out a Humax now I guess, but I just know it's not going to be as good... :-(


----------



## Jolltax

It might be worth posting a comment on the article about the service cancellation on the 'The Register' website, they have covered the story albeit not particularly sympathetically.

Sorry i can't post a link as my post count is too low.

Jolltax

EDIT : I think I can now (my comment is awaiting moderation)

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/02/15/tivo_to_cull_old_uk_set_tops/


----------



## futureechos

I'd be surprised if a user community appeal will be productive but I applaud those who are trying.

If the worst happens then I'd like to think about how we can get a new EPG on the s1's?

There's some smart people on this forum, so where do we start?

I presume we'll have to find a free epg, translate this to TiVo format and update the tivo's to look at this new source.

I'm a unix sys admin and happy to help but frankly, I don't know where to start..


----------



## abaker

Just sent this email to the execs at Tivo Inc:
Tom, Jim, Joe, Mark and Anna,
Along with many loyal UK Tivo users (read the forums!), I am dismayed that you have announced the discontinuation of the EPG for our series 1 machines. I would HAPPILY continue to pay the &#163;10/month fee to receive the data (more since the price has been fixed for nearly 10 years), as I have been doing since 2001. When I purchased the box, I decided not to take the "lifetime" subscription, but instead pay the monthly fee as I believed (along with many others) that this would encourage Tivo to stay in the UK, maintaining a steady revenue stream. Please provide an alternative EPG (dial-up or network) so that we can continue to enjoy our LOVELY Tivo.
I am in a VM cabled area, but to be honest, their reputation is so low in the UK that I'm loath to pay them anything, I'd rather continue to pay you.
Please add my name to the expanding list of loyal Tivo users who wish to remain so.


----------



## Pete77

Jolltax said:


> It might be worth posting a comment on the article about the service cancellation on the 'The Register' website, they have covered the story albeit not particularly sympathetically.
> 
> Sorry i can't post a link as my post count is too low.


Here is the link to The Register article. They do ask for comments on the article and no one has made any yet. Perhaps a few of you might like to put that right.

www.reghardware.com/2011/02/15/tivo_to_cull_old_uk_set_tops/

It doesn't seem to make nearly enough of the fact that around 50% of Tivo's long term UK customers of the last 10 years have no way at all of continuing to receive Tivo service on a product that they have always loved and been leading evangelists for just when Tivo needs their support with their V+ box owning friends.

Also they don't mention that S1 Tivo service is still being provided to customers in the USA. The argument that we have had a few free months cuts no ice whatsoever to those of with a Lifetime Tivo subscription.:down::down::down:


----------



## Jo.Cassady

Hi,

I found out about this thanks to coverage on The Register

This is an utter disgrace

*Can I have my £200 back for my Lifetime subscription, then? *


----------



## Jo.Cassady

Jolltax said:


> Sad day, my wife is virtually in tears about this.
> 
> I am just angry but I guess 10 years of good service is more than I have had out of virtually any other electrical device in my house.
> 
> Right, I guess I better start looking for an alternative.........
> 
> Jolltax


Or you could complain vociferously to TiVo, don't give up just yet


----------



## Glen

abaker said:


> Just sent this email to the execs at Tivo Inc:
> Tom, Jim, Joe, Mark and Anna,
> Along with many loyal UK Tivo users (read the forums!), I am dismayed that you have announced the discontinuation of the EPG for our series 1 machines. I would HAPPILY continue to pay the £10/month fee to receive the data (more since the price has been fixed for nearly 10 years), as I have been doing since 2001. When I purchased the box, I decided not to take the "lifetime" subscription, but instead pay the monthly fee as I believed (along with many others) that this would encourage Tivo to stay in the UK, maintaining a steady revenue stream. Please provide an alternative EPG (dial-up or network) so that we can continue to enjoy our LOVELY Tivo.
> I am in a VM cabled area, but to be honest, their reputation is so low in the UK that I'm loath to pay them anything, I'd rather continue to pay you.
> Please add my name to the expanding list of loyal Tivo users who wish to remain so.


With the greatest of respect, don't hold your breath for a reply. I've sent them emails before, and even sent letters to Tom and Jim, and have never ever received a reply, or even as little as an acknowledgement.


----------



## cwaring

abaker said:


> I am in a VM cabled area, but to be honest, their *reputation is so low in the UK* that I'm loath to pay them anything....


What a load of rubbish. If their "rep" is so low, how come they're the second largest consumer broadband supplier after BT, have more customers than Sky in places where their service is available and is constantly _adding_ subscribers to its users base?

Yes, they have some problems in some areas, but your comment is simply not bourne out by the facts.


Jo.Cassady said:


> Can I have my £200 back for my *Lifetime* subscription, then?


Well the "lifetime" of the box (which is what that word means in this context) ends of June 1. So, no 



Pete77 said:


> ...a Lifetime Tivo subscription...


Which ends on June 1.


----------



## Bluefastcar

Just to express my support to everyone in trying to get Tivo to change its mind. I've posted my Tivo blog reply, the CEO and his collegues next. Best electronic device I've ever had (well second behind my Nokia 6310i). My missus is devastated.


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> ... Virgin UK has no replacement on offer for anyone living outside Virgin cable land.


Well, that would be more than a little difficult, don't you think?  



> Tivo and Virgin are extremely stupid to try this on now when the Virgin Tivo is still embryonic and they need all the good press that they can possibly get.


This won't affect them in the slightest as it has _nothing to do with them_.



> But now the headline is "Tivo stabs customers outside Virgin Cable land in the back and leaves them with no replacement Tivo Service" and attention is drawn big time to the paucity of coverage of the Virgin Cable tv network.


It's a good spin on the truth, but that's all it is.



> I bet some cretinous Virgin marketing Director who reckons this will force another 3,000 customers with a Tivo S1 who didn't want to pay the extra to sign up to Virgin cable but doesn't care about those of us not in the Virgin cable land is behind this.


Ahh yes. Un-founded conspiracy theories. Just what the cause needs.



Bluefastcar said:


> Just to express my support to everyone in trying to get Tivo to change its mind.


A completely agree.


----------



## davisa

... Virgin UK has no replacement on offer for anyone living outside Virgin cable land.


cwaring said:


> Well, that would be more than a little difficult, don't you think?


Actually it would be quite easy - a Virgin TiVo Freeview box. Good way to expand the customer base...


----------



## cwaring

A fair point. I had forgotten about that. They did do a Freeview box once. They don't anymore. Not sure why they stopped.

(Well, it was someone else's of course. They just re-badged it I think )


----------



## davisa

cwaring said:


> A fair point. They did do a Freeview box once. They don't anymore. Not sure why they stopped.
> 
> (Well, it was someone else's of course. They just re-badged it I think )


187 posts and I finally made a fair point. See, its not _all_ bad.


----------



## cwaring

There must be a good reason they haven't done so. Possibly a financial one.


----------



## alek

cwaring said:


> Well the "lifetime" of the box (which is what that word means in this context) ends of June 1. So, no
> 
> Which ends on June 1.


There will be plenty of boxes alive and seeking an epg on June 1st. I always assumed ( yes , ass of u and me) that lifetime sub meant untill the box expired.

Alek


----------



## molesworth

Well, I've de-lurked after many years of reliable Tivo use to add my two pence worth 

I've added my comment on the Tivo blog, but the latest posting from "the editor" doesn't fill me with hope. Basically he's saying, "Thanks for being loyal customers, but it's out of our hands now". I'm not sure his suggestion to contact B-Sky-B will achieve anything, as they're probably in some sort of agreement with Virgin as well.

So, what we need are alternatives, and I'm sure with the kind of community that UK Tivo has there must be a way round this. I've not spent much time exploring the innards of the system, but if there's any way to get an alternative EPG source going, then surely it's not beyond our capabilities to do it.

And if it needs a subscription to cover the costs of data sources and a server, then I'd certainly be willing to pay a small fee, as I'm sure most people would. With the number of Tivo users in the UK surely it wouldn't cost each of us much to run an independent service?

Maybe this thought needs a separate thread, but I'll post it here for now...


----------



## healeydave

molesworth said:


> I've added my comment on the Tivo blog, but the latest posting from "the editor" doesn't fill me with hope. Basically he's saying, "Thanks for being loyal customers, but it's out of our hands now". I'm not sure his suggestion to contact B-Sky-B will achieve anything, as they're probably in some sort of agreement with Virgin as well.


I think its a bit of a Tivo cop-out to say complain to BSkyB and its out of their hands, the subscription and EPG service has always been Tivo, all BSkyB did initially was partner up with Tivo initially and host the call center (which of-course enabled them to completely shaft them with sky+).


----------



## Glen

.


> TiVo Editor says:
> February 15, 2011 at 11:23 am
> We have reviewed your comments and appreciate the feedback. Thank you for the loyalty you have had for TiVo and the passion youve voiced for the product.
> 
> While we do understand that Virgin Media doesnt service all of the UK we are confident that a great majority of customers will have access to the new solution and we encourage all Series1 users to investigate the potential to upgrade.
> 
> If you are a Series1 UK TiVo customer and have questions email [email protected], Virgin Media is unable to handle inquiries related to the discontinuation of Series1 TiVo service.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Joshua Danovitz


----------



## Glen

healeydave said:


> I think its a bit of a Tivo cop-out to say complain to BSkyB and its out of their hands, the subscription and EPG service has always been Tivo, all BSkyB did initially was partner up with Tivo initially and host the call center (which of-course enabled them to completely shaft them with sky+).


Dave, that email address isnt to sky its bskyb-support*@tivo.com*


----------



## bradleyem

So, I assume that Virgin will contact everyone who pre-registered and get them a new TiVo before then?


----------



## yesj

I have sent the following and am not crossing my fingers but . . . 

Dear Sir

It is with much disappointment that I learn that TiVo has decided to discontinue service to Series1 owners in the UK. The article posted on the support web page is factually incorrect:

When I purchased my TiVo this was from a local electronic goods supplier in the UK and I did not have Sky. 

The offering from Virgin Media is as follows: 

£199 for a box that you do not own (reduced to £149 if you pre-register)
£40 installation cost (waived for those that pre-register)
£34.50 a month 

For those people that are quite happily using their TiVo Series1 with Freeview (the free aerial service offered in the UK) this means an initial out lay of between £149 and £239 and an annual cost of £414. How can this possibly be a good deal for anyone concerned? 

Coupled with the fact that Virgin have limited cable coverage, the decision to pull the Series 1 is a very bad one. To my knowledge Virgin are at this point only taking orders and have not yet started rolling out to the UK. TiVo is still very popular in Series1 format in the UK and you would have many people knocking on your doors to purchase Series2 or Series3 boxes to use with TV suppliers other than Virgin. TiVo remains the best PVR in the UK despite the fact that the only offering (poorly marketed at the time) is now over 10 years old. 

I would politely suggest that you reconsider this decision. All current TiVo Series1 owners should be polled to find out if there is a better way. Many would consider paying for the service despite having paid a lifetime subscription at the time of purchase. I would suggest you review the TiVo community pages and then reconsider. This is a very unpopular move.
I await your comments.


----------



## spitfires

To their credit they at least seem to have approved all our responses. I bet he went **** when he got into work this morning and saw that lot waiting for him.

Thanks for posting the original link sad_tivo_man



Edit: it's interesting to see the consistency in the responses bearing in mind that we hadn't seen each others comments at the time we posted our own (if you see what I mean).


----------



## Glen

I wonder if the US series 1's are still active?


----------



## jeremy9911

I'd like to ask everyone affected by this to do the same - send a polite, but disappointed, message to Tivo bemoaning what they have done to us

It'll probably not change anything, but you never know - if we don't complain nothing will happen for sure[/QUOTE]

***Yes, but how? I've tried emailing TIVO on their website but cannot register without a US address! Please give me an email address for TIVO and I'll gladly moan to them, having recently upgraded my faithful old TIVO and having bought another last month on Ebay!

Another point - Virgin require subscription to their XL TV service if you want their new TIVO. I love TIVO but have no desire to pay an extra £20 a month for 160 channels when everything I want to view is on their cheapest tariff.

So they cancel my two paid-up "lifetime" subscriptions, leave me with two perfectly functional TIVOs unsupported, then Virgin insist on screwing me for their top-price TV package...

Yes I'll have a moan!

If someone is clever enough to come up with a way of accessing by dialup an alternative programme guide I'm interested.


----------



## ALanJay

davisa said:


> ... Virgin UK has no replacement on offer for anyone living outside Virgin cable land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by cwaring
> Well, that would be more than a little difficult, don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it would be quite easy - a Virgin TiVo Freeview box. Good way to expand the customer base...
Click to expand...

If they had been really clever they would have created a TiVO box with Freeview HD / IPTV and the Cable connection that way for people outside of the cable area they could have sold a TiVo with IPTV and broadband onto their network.

It would have allowed them to expand their footprint. IPTV is not far advanced in the UK and it is a far cheaper way to get out to users than old style cable and would have allowed VM to increase their foot print and service offering.


----------



## ALanJay

cwaring said:


> There must be a good reason they haven't done so. Possibly a financial one.


Price - the cost of such hardware would be more and for customers on the network there would be no advantage. But of course that is very short sited as VM can only sell to people who are on their cable network even though they have a broadband network as well this could have been an opportunity to offer TV to those customers as well.

In France the major internet players are all now in TV (and in it in a big way) competing with satellite and cable (and spending money on sporting rights).


----------



## taid

yesj said:


> The offering from Virgin Media is as follows:
> 
> £199 for a box that you do not own (reduced to £149 if you pre-register)
> £40 installation cost (waived for those that pre-register)
> £34.50 a month .


Plus the cost of a VM subscription for even more channels which I wouldn't be watching anyway and HD channels which I couldn't watch without replacing the TV set ....

(hauls out the old VHS recorder)


----------



## cwaring

No. That's included in the &#163;34.50 a month. Which I think it wrong anyway


----------



## yesj

That is the price I was quoted when Virgin phoned me after pre-registering


----------



## bhedge

I don't think anyone's mentioned it but I can't help thinking existing S1 owners could provide a good PR opportunity for VM/TiVo. After all how many technology companies have this many loyal and enthusiastic users for a tech device that is 11 years old and hasn't been on the market for 8?

I can understand why they're killing the service, but I can't help thinking that it wouldn't take that many man hours programming "legacy support" into the new servers and I think it could be really good PR to trot a few of us out to evangelise in their new ad campaign.


----------



## yesj

bhedge said:


> I don't think anyone's mentioned it but I can't help thinking existing S1 owners could provide a good PR opportunity for VM/TiVo. After all how many technology companies have this many loyal and enthusiastic users for a tech device that is 11 years old and hasn't been on the market for 8?
> 
> I can understand why they're killing the service, but I can't help thinking that it wouldn't take that many man hours programming "legacy support" into the new servers and I think it could be really good PR to trot a few of us out to evangelise in their new ad campaign.


Great idea - maybe we should email them that thought and put it on the blog


----------



## scoopuk

This was my message to their message board at blog.tivo.com :

I feel like my best friend has turned his back on me and walked out of my life forever.

I bought Tivo in Wk 1 in the UK, spent £400 then £10/month for three years then bought what I thought was a lifetime subscription for £200. Can I have my money back please?

Ive been a devoted Tivo evangelist  you must have had at least 30 extra customers because of my constant praise for how it changed my life. Several I gave as presents including a rare person who lives in a cable area  I was persuading him to start forking out for subscription television and buy one of your new Virgin boxes.Now though  forget it.
Tivo clearly isnt reliable and you just switch the service off and leave your customers with nothing. Once bitten twice shy.

Joshua  you are wrong  the great majority of customers will not have access. Cable in the UK is very limited. I live in central London  and dont have it. Please think again.

-----
This is a sad day


----------



## cwaring

scoopuk said:


> Joshua  you are wrong  the great majority of customers will not have access. Cable in the UK is very limited. I live in central London  and dont have it. Please think again.


Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so your statement is inaccurate.


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so your statement is inaccurate.


Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so his statement is entirely accurate.


----------



## philatio

Whilst I'm in complete agreement that this is a sad sad day.. I think you're all wasting your time in contacting anyone.

TiVo has sold their brand and product in the UK to Virgin.
Virgin have absolutely no interest in S1 product.

End of. Game over.
The only possible way ahead now is an alternative, unofficial EPG.


----------



## Pete77

philatio said:


> TiVo has sold their brand and product in the UK to Virgin. Virgin have absolutely no interest in S1 product.


I believe that the sudden decision to close UK Tivo S1 service has undoubtedly been taken at the behest of some sales target hungry senior Virgin Media marketing person who can only think as far as the opportunity to sign up at the point of a gun about 2,000 to 3,000 S1 users in the Virgin cable area who were previously using their boxes either with Freeview, Sky or on the basic free Virgin M tv package.

No doubt this narrow minded company flag waver can only think as far as it being bad for corporate branding for there to be any Tivo in operation in the UK that is not a Virgin one and is not intelligent enough to understand that even those of us who live in the 50% of the UK without Virgin cable are vital product ambassadors for the Tivo brand who would have done everything to persuade our friends living in Virgin cable land that the new Virgin Tivo was something they must have.

It is a sad thing indeed that the Tivo S1 service was kept going for all these years to preserve Tivo's good name in the UK only for that to be destroyed in a moment by the short sighted and narrow minded actions of some blinkered and brainless Virgin Media corporate clone.:down::down::down:


----------



## jeremy9911

healeydave said:


> I'm amazed at some of the initial calm replies, my gut instinct on the news was that people would be furious and it would provoke a lot of bad publicity for TiVo.
> 
> If TiVo's terms were to provide EPG for as long as the service existed and they are the ones pulling the plug, perhaps a refund of is in order?
> 
> I wonder if they think pulling the plug on the series 1 will have some sort of forcible upgrade effect to the Virgin product?
> It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding TiVo Inc have regarding the cable availability in the UK.
> I am positive anyone still running a UK Tivo would probably upgrade by default if they were able to, so tactics like this are completely un-necessary!


*** I could upgrade - in fact I was on the verge of doing so. My biggest concern was paying £20 a month too much as I have no need of the mandatory XLTV package when the much cheaper M package would suit me fine. But I was getting over that as I fancied the whole new Tivo thing, as you can all well understand.
However when I got home this evening and read the Tivo message all enthusiasm I had for the Virgin/Tivo linkup evaporated. What ridiculous timing! Just when they are trying to tempt series 1 owners to join their new club they slap this on us!
In reality my series 1 boxes would have gathered dust in other rooms of the house, connected to other tvs and rarely used. If Virgin/Tivo had given a couple of years' notice of termination I would have been philosophical.
As it is, I am so aggrieved - I bought a second series 1 last month on Ebay, funny eh?!- they can stick their "special offer".
They have at a stroke lost the goodwill of a group of Tivo ambassadors who could have influenced many others to buy into Virgin Tivo. Let's face it we're all a bit geeky about Tivo, it's just that until now we've been in a closed circle. 
Just as Tivo bursts out in all its up to the minute glory (possibly-time will tell whether Virgin fluff it) they stick two fingers up at us.
I'm in the mood for showing them the same gesture!


----------



## einstein

very upset, by all this, I had hoped that my TiVo would last until switch over in Yorkshire (August 2011/Oct 2011), as I've not yet decided what to do with Freeview Integrated STB/TV/PVRs etc. But I was hoping to keep my four TiVos going. 

They've been part of my lives for such a long time, when I first purchased them in 2000, and saved my relationship, due to arguments with VCR tapes and recording over them. I was the best thing ever, and still is.

But, I've always been waiting for this day to come, in the early days, some of us didn't take out lifetime subscriptions, because we didn't think the service was going to last two years, and £199 lifetime agreement, was too much of a risk....how wrong I/we we were, and all the folk I intrroduced to TiVo along the way.

I feel like crying in my beer......

I hope, that we can pull togther and get something together....to continue.....and my power supply died in the TiVo over the weekend, not enough to persuade the original hard drive to spark into life....(maybe it was a sign!)


----------



## Pete77

jeremy9911 said:


> As it is, I am so aggrieved - I bought a second series 1 last month on Ebay, funny eh?!- they can stick their "special offer".
> 
> They have at a stroke lost the goodwill of a group of Tivo ambassadors who could have influenced many others to buy into Virgin Tivo. Let's face it we're all a bit geeky about Tivo, it's just that until now we've been in a closed circle.
> 
> Just as Tivo bursts out in all its up to the minute glory (possibly-time will tell whether Virgin fluff it) they stick two fingers up at us.
> I'm in the mood for showing them the same gesture!


Well said jeremy. You clearly feel just as I do about this disgraceful move clearly forced through by Virgin Media. This all smacks of some nasty salesman at Virgin with no love of the Tivo brand or its devotees but a great love of making new sales thinking this is a great way for Virgin Media to force 3,000 to 4,000 Tivo S1 users to become brand new Virgin customers (if they currently use their Tivo with Freeview or a Sky Freesat box) or to have upgrade from its most basic free tv package to its most expensive pay tv offering.

It is obviously all gong to blow up spectacularly in their faces but this strong armed sales merchant at Virgin is unfortunately just not able to see it.:down::down::down:

Make sure to register your discontent and comments on this matter at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/#comments


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so his statement is entirely accurate.


50% isn't "the great majority" though. Unless the definiton changed recently?


Pete77 said:


> ...clearly forced through by Virgin Media.


Oh I do love a good conspiracy theory  You mention "3 or 4 thousand". Well, they've already had *tens of thousands* of pre-registrations, so I don't think they'll be _too_ worried about S1 owners; over and above their contractual obligations to them.


----------



## Steve_K

Anyone got the full text (or a link to same) of the original agreements?

While I appreciate that the lifetime sub has been great deal and I may have had what some see as my full value from it, so what? It was a deal that TiVo entered into with their eyes open and have to honour. I honoured my part and since I'm still alive, the box is still alive and the S1 service is still alive in the USA then surely they have to supply the service or refund the sub. If TiVo start to argue that the national border features in the definition of lifetime would TiVo's argument be deemed as unfair conditions?

And TiVo may well not like it should I complain to my credit card company (who IIRC are equally bound by the contract).


----------



## jeremy9911

cwaring said:


> 50% isn't "the great majority" though. Unless the definiton changed recently?
> 
> Oh I do love a good conspiracy theory  You mention "3 or 4 thousand". Well, they've already had *tens of thousands* of pre-registrations, so I don't think they'll be _too_ worried about S1 owners; over and above their contractual obligations to them.


*** Tens of thousands. Where did you get that figure from - Virgin Media, perchance? Right.


----------



## TCM2007

cwaring said:


> 50% isn't "the great majority" though. Unless the definiton changed recently?.


Er, exactly. Did you read the original post right?


----------



## TCM2007

Steve_K said:


> And TiVo may well not like it should I complain to my credit card company (who IIRC are equally bound by the contract).


And what do you think the Cc company would do? Before 20 months had passed you'd be out of pocket and have a claim. But not now.


----------



## LaupSavea

I doubt that VM nor Tivo Inc, will take any notice of direct emails.

Can I suggest that if you want them to take notice that you need to generate some publicity about this issue.

So, here's some things you might want to consider doing;

* Contact BBC's Watchdog or Gadget Show or similar.
* Email every blogger you know and ask them to blog about it.
* Post on every appropriate forum you know.
* Twitter about the issue - maybe using #TIVOFAIL
* Email every appropriate Podcaster
* Write to the editors of the tech sections of the Daily Newspapers

I'm sure there are others I haven't listed but this is probably the best way to facilitate change here. I doubt VM nor TIVO would want it widely known how they have treated their loyal customers. Their behaviour here certainly makes me feel more negative about their respective brands.


----------



## dd_

TCM2007 said:


> Er, exactly. Did you read the original post right?


Seconded.

Carl, I bet as a child you'd poke a sleeping dog with a stick, just to see what happened. Let them be! Heavens above.


----------



## dd_

Firstly, well done all for not lying down and 'taking it from the man'. I need to crash now but will endeavour to get writing later to all the various emails, forums etc. Thanks for mentioning those.

Second,


Steve_K said:


> Anyone got the full text (or a link to same) of the original agreements?.


While I don't have the whole thing, spitfires did quote the relevant clause at post 27 (see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8378632#post8378632 )

Third. Someone did ask whether the manual (timed) record would still work. Any ideas? I know that I've used my S1 in the past, off sub, as a recorder - just can't recall if I ever used the manual record option. If all other routes come to nought, I'll do that.

Lastly. I'd much rather have some sort of EPG, as I really value my Wishlist (even starting to like Suggestions just recently, ha). Whether that means a change in decision by VM/Tivo (doubtful) or a British alternative in EPG supply, I don't mind. Either way, I'd be happy to either:
a) club together and pay up front (as a job of work to a Unix/Linux Tivo specialist) for a one off solution;
b) pay an ongoing sub for a new EPG alternative.​
It was a sad day, when I first saw this thread. Let's hope we can all put something viable together.


----------



## spitfires

Steve_K said:


> Anyone got the full text (or a link to same) of the original agreements?


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8381080


----------



## unitron

Glen said:


> I wonder if the US series 1's are still active?


I'm using one (Philips) right now, here in North Carolina, with a TurboNet card generously supplied by a UK located fellow Slashdotter who had upgraded to a cache card. Of course I could have gotten along without the card if the internal modem wasn't practically designed to fail.

And I just put a second (Sony) back in service (with external modem) when an S2 scrambled one or both of its new pair of 1TB hard drives. : - (

I am expecting TiVo to backstab US S1 owners as soon as they figure out how to get away with it.

Although by then Time-Warner Cable will probably have already screwed us analog customers anyway.


----------



## cwaring

jeremy9911 said:


> *** Tens of thousands. Where did you get that figure from - Virgin Media, perchance? Right.


Yes I did. I also have no reason to not believe it.



TCM2007 said:


> Er, exactly. Did you read the original post right?


Yes. And by a definition that you mentioned in your comment on that Tivo Blog, "vast majority" is defined as "greater than 80%".

So if Tivo are wrong then so it Pete77 because VM, at best, reaches only 50% of households in the UK.


----------



## bigwold

cwaring said:


> So if Tivo are wrong then so it Pete77 because VM, at best, reaches only 50% of households in the UK.


According to Ofgem it's 49%


----------



## taid

Not directly connected to the thread ..

I note the TiVo initial screen today has dropped 'Inside Tivo' & 'Channel Highlights ' 

pressage of other changes?


----------



## TCM2007

dd_ said:


> Third. Someone did ask whether the manual (timed) record would still work. Any ideas? I know that I've used my S1 in the past, off sub, as a recorder - just can't recall if I ever used the manual record option. If all other routes come to nought, I'll do that.


A good point.

TiVo would have to do a major software update for that to work reliably. If they turn off the server altogether then Guided Setup will fail, and without that there are no IR codes.

I'm sure that TiVoPony or someone else from TiVo promised on here that should EPG data end that they would supply the update to enable manyual recording. Anyone with some patience want to try to hunt it down?


----------



## Muttley1900

TCM2007 said:


> I'm sure that TiVoPony or someone else from TiVo promised on here that should EPG data end that they would supply the update to enable manyual recording. Anyone with some patience want to try to hunt it down?


I didn't find that one, but i did find this one re where the epg data comes from...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7635551#post7635551


----------



## Ovit-UK

Only received this message this morning as the last few daily calls have failed.


Ovit


----------



## GarySargent

Nice to see some old friends still on this forum. Just thought I'd say hi as I heard the bad news about TiVo Series 1 

It's not been a bad run considering how things could easily have ended way back in 2003 when TiVo effectively pulled out of the UK. As we all thought back then though, the end would come eventually. To be honest I'm staggered it lasted so long. Still sad to see it go though.

I see some people mentioning that they would gladly pay a monthly subscription to carry on receiving guide data. I doubt that would work. The &#163;10 per month TiVo came up with would have been based on projected figures of expected number of subscribers - probably a high number. Where we are now the user base is very small, and economies of scale mean the &#163;10 per month would probably have to be something much higher to cover all the dial-up, production, and licensing costs.

I'm sure there is plenty of time for the more technically able people here to work out a way to implement an unofficial replacement solution run by the community. 

These days I'm using SkyHD and suffer many missed recordings, and an inferior EPG. Like many others I'd gladly have a Virgin TiVo if I lived in a Virgin area.

I'm still surprised after all this time there aren't better alternatives on the market! Ten years on and there still doesn't seem to be a good alternative to the original Series 1 TiVo! Once you've tried TiVo, everything else seems second best.

Good luck to you all!


----------



## topbanana

Sad to see TiVo withdrawing from my area. My old PVR100UK's a fantastic product that has seen daily use for over ten years. There doesn't seem to be any alternative service available up here at the northen end of the UK - no Virgin, no Sky, only 512K broadband.

Although in my head I'm telling myself that we've had a great run and that TiVo have done well to run the service for as long as they have, my heart's a bit bitter - who new that a lifetime would be so short.

T.C.O was (£400 unit + £200 sub + £180 repairs + £110 upgrades) / ( 137 months ) = ~£6.50 / month.


----------



## taid

GarySargent said:


> Once you've tried TiVo, everything else seems second best.


 everything else *IS* second best.


----------



## Nimbus

Another gutted, tho not surprised long term lurker and tivo fan here.. 

I am in a VM coverage area, but I certainly dont want their service, why would I want to pay £30+ a month to receive freeview ? I don't want their internet, I dont want their phoneline, and I don't want their bundled extra channels...

My tivo was perfect just as it was.

So, I guess I'm no real loss to them, although their 'deal' for exisiting subscribers can hardly be called 'good' in any case :down:

Looks like I'll be over at tivoland seeing what help I can give to alternative data sources.

Thanks tivocommunity.com this has been a great place to be over the past few years and an invaluable data source, its been much appreciated. :up:

Oh, and finally today, I found out how to ignore certain posters, it certainly makes this forum a better place to be, as they only seem to come over here to argue the toss and hear the sound of their own 'voice'.


----------



## johnscott99

Wow!

I read every post in the hope that someone would say "Hey I've written a script that pulls a TV guide off xxx free website and all you have to do is change you TiVo script to download from www.xxxx.co.uk. Anyone want to donate via paypal?"

Anyone know what format the TV EPG comes in or how to change TiVo to read from a different source?"

I'm emailing the BBC next. See if they are interested in this story. Watchdog/ CLICK etc.


----------



## djb2002

I'll be e-mailing the BBC/Watchdog etc.

The more publicity there is about this the better. There is always the chance TiVo could back track when they realise how much bad publicity it is causing them....


----------



## tudedude

As soon as the Virgin/Tivo hook up was announced, I started looking for an alternative:


Humax HDR-FOXT2-1TB
1TB Freeview+ HD Digital TV Recorder - PVR / DTR

Is excellent, not as good as my TIVO of course but pretty close once you have got used to the controls 

I know it's expensive but it does work well and has improved our viewing and of course it does HD as well - so sadly goodbye my TIVO and "up yours" to Virgin which we cannot get and no likelyhood of getting.


----------



## pemills

I have just sent my comment to TiVo about the end of the "Lifetime Service"
==================================================
Joshua,

I am truly gutted, I have 5 tivo's all with "Lifetime Subscription" and have been a loyal TiVo devotee since 2000, to lose this piece of wonderful technology is heartbreaking and since I DO NOT live in a Virgin Media cabled area I have no way to upgrade to their new shiny service, yes their new S3 box may be a great bit of kit but would be nothing more than an expensive door stop to me plus I cannot afford to buy five new machines even if I lived in a cabled area.

I also feel bad for my many friends who I converted to TiVo over the years, I do hope they will still speak to me.

Please please please reconsider pulling the plug on the "service" and continue with the EPG updates.
====================================================
Do the same and let them know how YOU feel, I don't really expect much to happen but with the weight of all the loyal TiVo users out there you never know, also with so many very knowledgeable people (hackers) out there there must be a way to introduce an alternative EPG to our TiVo boxes either by dialup or via the network.


----------



## sad_tivo_man

cwaring said:


> Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so your statement is inaccurate.


Rubbish. Try looking up the definition of 'the great majority'. 80%.

Time to stick you on the Ignore list


----------



## mikerr

johnscott99 said:


> I read every post in the hope that someone would say "Hey I've written a script that pulls a TV guide off xxx free website and all you have to do is change you TiVo script to download from www.xxxx.co.uk.


Moves are afoot to do just that ...


----------



## alextegg

Nimbus said:


> Oh, and finally today, I found out how to ignore certain posters, it certainly makes this forum a better place to be, as they only seem to come over here to argue the toss and hear the sound of their own 'voice'.


 :up: :up:


----------



## regdor

Probably never get to the man himself but i have emailed the Tivo CEO Mr Rogers. His and other management names are in an earlier post.
If he gets a couple of hundred polite but firm emails at least he will know how the loyal UK owners feel.
Seems more productive than just ranting in here! I am very impressed how reasonable most posts have been, not read every one but what a nice lot Tivo owners are.
Good luck to the technical folks who try to engineer a program guide solution.

If not my replacement will be a Humax Sat recorder. Are they reliable?
Standard Sky boxes only seem to last 3 years, i am on my third! Even the first Sony failed after a short time!


----------



## steveroe

The closure has been noted on Slashdot, if people care to comment there as well.


----------



## nilling

I have had my TiVo Series 1 for nearly 10 years now and I bought the £199 Lifetime sub. Whilst I am hugely disappointed the service is going, TiVo owes me nothing. There were four of us in work who bought a TiVo around the same time and I'm the last one clinging on whilst everybody went to Sky+ HD. 

I am also not in VM land, in fact I'm surrounded by it but will not be connected due to costs. My broadband is pants as I'm too far from the BT excahnge so that rules out BT and other streaming services.

Which leaves Freesat HD or Freeview HD. Like others have said their UI and EPG are poor and make Sky+ look amazing 


This is off The Reg not sure what "may" and "limited" means in this context?

TiVo insisted that the boxes "may" be able to record programmes manually, but there will be no electronic programme guide (EPG) and the boxes will have "limited - if any - functionality".

Looks like I will be picking the best of a very bad bunch


----------



## TCM2007

GarySargent said:


> Nice to see some old friends still on this forum. Just thought I'd say hi as I heard the bad news about TiVo Series 1


Hi Gary, long time no "see"!

Those early days seem a long time ago now. I remember when all this was just electrons...


----------



## ALanJay

Pete77 said:


> No doubt this narrow minded company flag waver can only think as far as it being bad for corporate branding for there to be any Tivo in operation in the UK that is not a Virgin one and is not intelligent enough to understand that even those of us who live in the 50% of the UK without Virgin cable are vital product ambassadors for the Tivo brand who would have done everything to persuade our friends living in Virgin cable land that the new Virgin Tivo was something they must have.
> 
> It is a sad thing indeed that the Tivo S1 service was kept going for all these years to preserve Tivo's good name in the UK only for that to be destroyed in a moment by the short sighted and narrow minded actions of some blinkered and brainless Virgin Media corporate clone.:down::down::down:


I totally agree. They are shooting themselves in the foot by annoying the loyal users who will be their ambassadors on forum like this (and places like digitalspy.co.uk) for people deciding if to upgrade to their new service.


----------



## cwaring

taid said:


> Not directly connected to the thread ..
> 
> I note the TiVo initial screen today has dropped 'Inside Tivo' & 'Channel Highlights '
> 
> pressage of other changes?


No. As I mentioned elsewhere, those two have often disappeared over the last ten years.


----------



## taid

cwaring said:


> No. As I mentioned elsewhere, those two have often disappeared over the last ten years.


Oh, Sorry ..

Memo to self .. Must be more observant


----------



## TCM2007

And what would these non-ambassadors be saying? "Don't buy a Virgin TiVo because if Virgin stops making them they'll only support it for another eight or nine years!" How off putting!

I understand people are P'd off that they are going to have to find a new solution, but TiVo have bent over backwards running a loss making service with no prospect of improvement for the best part of a decade. They could have just shut everything down in 2003 when they closed their UK office and gave up selling boxes. The idea that this is poor CS, or the TiVo have screwed over its customers is laughable.

Virgin are switching their entire HD PVR userbase to TiVo over time. Virgin will have made the call that those S1 owners outside the VM catchment really don't trouble the scorers. Looking at it dispassionately, they are right. 

Doesn't make anyone having to shell out for a new PVR any happier, but TiVo's had a good innings.


----------



## mikerr

TCM2007 said:


> Virgin are switching their entire HD PVR userbase to TiVo over time.


Not just PVRs though - the entire userbase including non-PVR boxes will be running TiVo software eventually.
That's a big score for TiVo.


----------



## taid

TCM2007 said:


> And what would these non-ambassadors be saying? "Don't buy a Virgin TiVo because if Virgin stops making them they'll only support it for another eight or nine years!" How off putting!
> 
> I understand people are P'd off that they are going to have to find a new solution, but TiVo have bent over backwards running a loss making service with no prospect of improvement for the best part of a decade. They could have just shut everything down in 2003 when they closed their UK office and gave up selling boxes. The idea that this is poor CS, or the TiVo have screwed over its customers is laughable.
> 
> Virgin are switching their entire HD PVR userbase to TiVo over time. Virgin will have made the call that those S1 owners outside the VM catchment really don't trouble the scorers. Looking at it dispassionately, they are right.
> 
> Doesn't make anyone having to shell out for a new PVR any happier, but TiVo's had a good innings.


Unfortunately that is 100% true ..

but there wouldn't be so many gripes if an equivalent were available .. but there isn't

what annoys me most is that I will now have to lash out a couple of hundred quid and buy another box which will not give me what I had with TiVo ..

unless the TiVo concept was heavily patented, I do not understand why other manufacturers have continued to produce boxes whose functions are so basic when compared to TiVo


----------



## swuk

TCM2007 said:


> The idea that this is poor CS, or the TiVo have screwed over its customers is laughable.


:up::up::up:

I'm disappointed, but knew it wouldn't last forever. Heck, I've been expecting the PSU to go at any time.

I didn't realise the VM deal meant having the XL TV package. So they can shove that one where the sun doesn't shine.

I'll be looking into alternative arrangements with the S1 box if possible.


----------



## TCM2007

taid said:


> unless the TiVo concept was heavily patented, I do not understand why other manufacturers have continued to produce boxes whose functions are so basic when compared to TiVo


Sky excepted, it's the business model. Humax or whoever make all their money on the initial transaction and then that's it. They therefore don't have the resources to build something like TiVo, which requires custom EPG data and an ongoing revenue stream to fund it.

I have high hopes of YouView, but it won't ship until next year.


----------



## ALanJay

TCM2007 said:


> I understand people are P'd off that they are going to have to find a new solution, but TiVo have bent over backwards running a loss making service with no prospect of improvement for the best part of a decade. They could have just shut everything down in 2003 when they closed their UK office and gave up selling boxes. The idea that this is poor CS, or the TiVo have screwed over its customers is laughable.


I think TiVo have been amazing continuing to support the service and keep the EPG running.

What I think many of us feel is that it is being discontinued for marketing reasons rather than cost reasons. A new owner has been handed the whole thing and has said its not part of our plan get rid of it.

It is a shame and it will lead people to do what was done in Australia for some time before they entered the market there so I'm not sure how making the community manage an EPG helps them or their goals when it is considered something across that line of acceptability that we all try to follow and behave.

Overall this is a very sad time but my Son will just have to get used to using Sky+ (though I'm not keen on the extra management it will involve from my side).

I wonder if the comments will create any response at all or will we be left with a great silence.


----------



## regdor

I agree TCM2007, from a business point of view the few Tivo owners left are of no concern to Virgin Media and we have have had a good run in this fast moving age. However they pay Marketing Directors lots of money to protect their brand. VM should have been more up-front and just said sorry to those of us abandoned with no VM solution on offer. We are not stupid, most of understand basic economics, be honest with your customers and don't put up messages about "the VM new box" as if it makes everything OK. Some people are very angry and in this internet age can make lots of noise way beyond the true scale of the problem. VM marketing have not handled this well. 
I happen to use Virgin as my mobile phone carrier and they market to their, mainly, very young audience, i find it hilarious as of course as i am very old. Perhaps its the same team is managing this Tivo thing!


----------



## TCM2007

There's probably a disconnect between TiVo and VM here. People are tending to talk about them interchangeably, but of course they are not.


----------



## merlin

This is very disappointing news indeed... and I was just about to sell one of my lifetime TiVo's as well ;-)

Surely, there must be a way of downloading the EPG from somewhere else?

I had the new TiVo from Virgin installed yesterday, but to be honest I still prefer my old S1... the new TiVo is a little too red for me and at the moment its not very flexible what we can do with it! 

What I really mean is that I can no longer telnet to this new TiVo and change anything I want!


----------



## Davyburns

We all knew it was going to end someday, and I looked forward to the replacement, but even at a reduced price to "buy" it when it will always belong to them, and an extra &#163;20 a month to upgrade to chanels I dont want is way over the top. No thank you VM

Will there ever be a chance to purchase them outright from a 3rd Party?


----------



## dmd

Does anyone know much about the new box? Will it only record from cable or can it be used for other things in the same way that the S1 TiVo can? Is there a way it could be used without a cable TV connection?


----------



## steveroe

dmd said:


> Does anyone know much about the new box? Will it only record from cable or can it be used for other things in the same way that the S1 TiVo can? Is there a way it could be used without a cable TV connection?


It can only be used with Virgin cable


----------



## mikerr

The VM Tivo is cable only - it can't record from any external input.

As for price, remember the original price of TiVo was &#163;400 (or &#163;600 inc lifetime sub...)


----------



## Automan

Not sure if already mentioned but is this another kick in the teeth?

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/02/16/virgin_media_tivo_tease/

Automan.


----------



## mikerr

Yep - I got one of those tickets - I think its to all XL customers:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=464924


----------



## scoopuk

cwaring said:


> Cable services are available to around 50% of UK houses, so your statement is inaccurate.


Carl please stop being so defensive on here - we know you are a confident advocate of Virgin's wares - and indeed previously Telewest's. You are an important and highly respected member of the Tivo community in the UK but I seriously think you've misjudged the anger and upset this decision has made.

You jumped on my post to claim it was inaccurate. Well I was directly quoting Joshua Danovitz - who runs "the TiVo International business". His blog reply to our complaints says this: "While we do understand that Virgin Media doesnt service all of the UK we are confident that a great majority of customers will have access to the new solution and we encourage all Series1 users to investigate the potential to upgrade."

It's HIS words which are inaccurate - which is the point I was making.

TiVo at the highest levels simply doesn't realise that cable in the UK is, for many of us, an impossible substitute for what we have now - and they're just dropping us for no good reason.


----------



## healeydave

I think what narks many off, is TiVo EPG servers are in the USA and they are going no-where. They will be continue to be used to supply guide data to USA S1, S2, S3 units etc.
I believe they will be suppling guide data to the UK VM box too.

We all appreciate the technical support for PVR10UK boxes via the Sky call centre had to end and are quite happy to handle it ourselves, that's a given, we've been doing it for years already. 
I'm not sure how much cost involvement would be attributed to continuing to supply UK S1 boxes, hell, if it helped, I think most people would have been happy for the DUN POP number to go to curb all costs this side of the pond, if it helped keep the guide available, all-be-it only though a Cache/Turbonet card!


----------



## Bluefastcar

healeydave said:


> I think what narks many off, is TiVo EPG servers are in the USA and they are going no-where. They will be continue to be used to supply guide data to USA S1, S2, S3 units etc.
> I believe they will be suppling guide data to the UK VM box too.
> 
> We all appreciate the technical support for PVR10UK boxes via the Sky call centre had to end and are quite happy to handle it ourselves, that's a given, we've been doing it for years already.
> I'm not sure how much cost involvement would be attributed to continuing to supply UK S1 boxes, hell, if it helped, I think most people would have been happy for the DUN POP number to go to curb all costs this side of the pond, if it helped keep the guide available, all-be-it only though a Cache/Turbonet card!


Totally agree.


----------



## irrelevant

healeydave said:


> I'm not sure how much cost involvement would be attributed to continuing to supply UK S1 boxes, hell, if it helped, I think most people would have been happy for the DUN POP number to go to curb all costs this side of the pond, if it helped keep the guide available, all-be-it only though a Cache/Turbonet card!


Or change the number to a Geographic or UK-Wide number - no running costs for them, and many users would still get the calls free anyway, especially if they can be kept off-peak.


----------



## Millimole

TCM2007 said:


> There's probably a disconnect between TiVo and VM here. People are tending to talk about them interchangeably, but of course they are not.


Exactly - and that's why those that are disgruntled need to let both Tivo and Virgin know how this will affect their separate brand images. Tivo need to know this may affect their brand in the UK and that the reputation if Virgin isn't maybe what Tivo-US think it might be. Virgin need to realise that this could damage their already tarnished reputation further.


----------



## telajayra

VM have just contacted me to offer an extra special on the new Tivo.
I currently pay &#163;27 for TV, Phone & Broadband.
& the Extra special deal is..........
PAY &#163;149 for the new box & then &#163;63 for life.
I've told them to cancel the lot, I'd rather go to Sky.
Some Special Deal!


----------



## Steve_K

Thanks TCM, dd and Spitfires re the agreement detail. Have replied in _The agreement thread_



TCM2007 said:


> And what do you think the Cc company would do? Before 20 months had passed you'd be out of pocket and have a claim. But not now.


sadly you are dead right, they will say out of time

Re the patents comemnts, TiVo have been rather successful over the years at protecting their IPR in patent disputes. It's likely Sky+ infringes some of them but I can't find that TiVo ever patented their _inventions_ in the UK. A quick search says they hold 330 patents worldwide, mostly in the USA. Either way Sky would be at serious copyright risk implementing a TiVo like user interface and since I reckon TiVo still smart from Sky utterly shafting them with Sky+. So Sky+/HD will continue to be tolerable but never anything like as good.

Do TiVo care about their reputation here? They must do, why else would they have implemented that big functional upgrade (in 2002?) and continued to support added IR codes over the years. So they might get shamed into doing something for the small number of users they may have to cover (ie not VM area, non modified/repaired TiVo user with lifetime sub). I can't see it would go beyond refunding the sub.

If anyone's got the energy to think about legal pursuits of TiVo (I haven't) how many of us are game to help fund real (rather than amateur) legal advice (I am - both willing to help and an amateur )


----------



## TCM2007

healeydave said:


> I think what narks many off, is TiVo EPG servers are in the USA and they are going no-where. They will be continue to be used to supply guide data to USA S1, S2, S3 units etc.
> I believe they will be suppling guide data to the UK VM box too.


Virgin and Tribune announced a direct deal on VM TiVo guide data; no reason to think it routes through TiVos servers unless you have more info?

The US servers will of course still exist, but will TiVo pay for guide data to populate them? It seems not.


----------



## yesj

From the TiVo Service agreement updated in december 2010

14. Product Lifetime Subscriptions. A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy  not the life of the subscriber. The Product Lifetime Subscription accompanies the TiVo DVR in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect if the TiVo DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer or retailer warranty details) or even if you upgrade your TiVo DVR to increase storage capacity (though such upgrades, if not performed by TiVo or a TiVo-authorized third party, will void the warranty on your TiVo DVR and constitute a breach of this Agreement). Because a Product Lifetime Subscription is linked to a particular TiVo DVR, you may not transfer it to any other TiVo DVR unless all the following conditions apply: (a) the TiVo DVR is being replaced pursuant to the manufacturer's or retailer's warranty; and (b) the TiVo DVR being replaced is of the same make and model as the replacement TiVo DVR; and (c) you provide us with a proof of replacement by the manufacturer or retailer. TiVo reserves the right to charge you a fee to transfer Product Lifetime Service from a TiVo DVR being replaced to a replacement TiVo DVR. Each TiVo DVR purchased requires its own TiVo service subscription and activation. Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary. TiVo makes no warranties or representations as to the expected lifetime of the TiVo DVR (aside from the manufacturer's or retailer's warranty).


----------



## TCM2007

That same agreement also says they can stop your subscription at any time and for no reason.

The lifetime sub meant no fees for the lifetime of the box, not a promise to continue the service forever. the former is what most people understood they were buying; the latter is clearly bonkers.

Even if TiVo were in breach of the contract, the maximum damages payable would be the amount you were out of pocket. Which assuming you took out the lifetime more than 20 months ago is &#163;0.


----------



## yesj

TCM2007 said:


> The lifetime sub meant no fees for the lifetime of the box, not a promise to continue the service forever. the former is what most people understood they were buying; the latter is clearly bonkers.
> 
> 
> 
> But my box is still alive. If we can get them to continue the service on a technicality surely this is worth pursuing
Click to expand...


----------



## TCM2007

As I said, at agreement says they can cancel your sub at any time, if they give a month's notice.


----------



## ColinYounger

yesj - have you replaced the HD or put a network card in? If so, you've broken the agreement.


----------



## Furball

TiVoPony (Bob) is very quiet 

Be nice too actually hear what TiVo themselves have to say from the horses mouth (excuse the pun) about this whole affair 

It seems such a shame that folks without a VM service are just being dumped on after years of loyal service, I've put many people onto VM who were not aware of TiVo and its up and coming goodies that it would offer, wont bother anylonger.

As for the 1000 special ticket offer, well that makes Roys and the whole VM pre-registration affair a total and utter farce :down:

You'd have thought they would have at the very least gone down the route of giving the first 1000 to folks who had a S1 as a kind of thank you for keeping the TiVo alive in the UK. 

Ah well thats big business for you and the reason I jumped ship from my employer 5yrs back ................cos loyalty is for muppets these days 

Furball


----------



## mas

Noooooooooo We want our S1, we cant get Virgin 

http://www.facebook.com/SaveSeries1UKTiVo


----------



## sad_tivo_man

I'm trying to get some US newspapers interested. Something along the lines of "TiVo dumps UK Series 1 owners. Is the US next?".


----------



## cwaring

> It's HIS words which are inaccurate - which is the point I was making.


Yeah. Something got confused im my head there. Sorry 



scoopuk said:


> Carl please stop being so defensive on here - we know you are a confident advocate of Virgin's wares - and indeed previously Telewest's. You are an important and highly respected member of the Tivo community in the UK ....


Aww shucks!  Seriously, you just cheered me up.



> ...but I seriously think you've misjudged the anger and upset this decision has made.


Only because a lot of it is, in my (and others, by the looks of it) opinion, quite simply wrong.


----------



## TCM2007

sad_tivo_man said:


> I'm trying to get some US newspapers interested. Something along the lines of "TiVo dumps UK Series 1 owners. Is the US next?".


They've dumped UK S1 owners because we're in the UK not because we're S1, why would US S1 owners be next?


----------



## irrelevant

sad_tivo_man said:


> I'm trying to get some US newspapers interested. Something along the lines of "TiVo dumps UK Series 1 owners. Is the US next?".


Maybe a "but plucky amateurs are trying to keep it going" as well? We don't want everybody throwing them away quite yet!!


----------



## sad_tivo_man

irrelevant said:


> Maybe a "but plucky amateurs are trying to keep it going" as well? We don't want everybody throwing them away quite yet!!


Very true but that won't get the interest of US papers. You need something with a US slant. Contacting the press in the UK won't bother TiVo Inc one iota, in my opinion.


----------



## einstein

sad_tivo_man said:


> Very true but that won't get the interest of US papers. You need something with a US slant. Contacting the press in the UK won't bother TiVo Inc one iota, in my opinion.


Can someone explain to me in laymans terms

Why?


----------



## rilian

swuk said:


> :up::up::up:
> 
> I'm disappointed, but knew it wouldn't last forever. Heck, I've been expecting the PSU to go at any time.


I have a new, unopened TiVo PSU and spare peanut remote (boxed, new); headed for landfill I suppose but I'd planned to keep mine going indefinitely.

I use a (10 year old!) Sky Digibox (non-Plus). Does anyone know if there's a way to get Sky to upgrade me to a SkyPlus Digibox cheaply? I know they're dreadful but better than nothing I suppose. Maybe if I threaten to cancel...

Alternatively can a homebrew solution like MythTV record from Sky ?


----------



## spitfires

yesj said:


> But my box is still alive. If we can get them to continue the service on a technicality surely this is worth pursuing


Sorry but there is no "technicality".

The Lifetime Subscription (note to others it's Lifetime _Subscription _*not* Lifetime _Service_) simply says that you will not be charged any more money for the Service - it does not give ANY guarantees about (a) the quality of, (b) the content of, or (c) the duration of that Service.

The Termination clause clearly states that the Service can be shut down with 30 days' notice.

TiVo have in fact given 107 days rather than 30, and will have given everyone free Service for over 6 months - any judge would decide they were being more than generous and ask you close the door on your way out.


----------



## irrelevant

rilian said:


> I have a new, unopened TiVo PSU and spare peanut remote (boxed, new); headed for landfill I suppose but I'd planned to keep mine going indefinitely.
> 
> I use a (10 year old!) Sky Digibox (non-Plus). Does anyone know if there's a way to get Sky to upgrade me to a SkyPlus Digibox cheaply? I know they're dreadful but better than nothing I suppose. Maybe if I threaten to cancel...
> 
> Alternatively can a homebrew solution like MythTV record from Sky ?


Don't give up quite so quickly... people are trying to work out an alternative!

There are alternatives, but noting that's anything like as good.


----------



## unitron

TCM2007 said:


> They've dumped UK S1 owners because we're in the UK not because we're S1, why would US S1 owners be next?


Why would U.S. S1 owners be next? Because by now probably most of those who were paying monthly have replaced their S1s with S2s or higher, and most of the remaining working S1s are "Lifetimed", which means servicing them with data is an ongoing cost with no offsetting revenue stream.


----------



## katman

unitron said:


> Why would U.S. S1 owners be next? Because by now probably most of those who were paying monthly have replaced their S1s with S2s or higher, and most of the remaining working S1s are "Lifetimed", which means servicing them with data is an ongoing cost with no offsetting revenue stream.


The main difference being that the EPG has to be kept alive for those with S2 and higher machine so there isnt an inherant cost in doing so.

Here in the UK, the "New" Tivo service is for a single cable company with only the one channel lineup whereas the existing Tivo service covered analogue Terrestrial TV (much of which has closed down the the remainder wll do so by next year) with all its regional variations, Digital Terrestrial, Freesat, Sky and Virgin Cable, therefore the EPG requirements for the old service are more demanding.

If Tivo did want to force an upgrade of US Series 1 units then I guess they could. Am I right in thinking that there currently ISNT any hurdle to an S1 user moving onto a newer machine in the States (other than financial), unlike here where at least 50% of current users have NO option to upgrade unless they physically relocate their home !!!


----------



## scoopuk

unitron said:


> Why would U.S. S1 owners be next?...


Well you'll just have to hope won't you? Clearly none of us can rely on a continuing service from Tivo any more. Why would we trust them again?


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Following the exhortation in Joshua J's/TiVo Incs posts to email [email protected] I did just that and asked what my upgrade path was seeing as how I am not on cable.

This is the auto-response....

_
If you are contacting TiVo regarding a technical support question, an agent will respond to your inquiry within 2 business days.

If you are contacting TiVo with questions about the future of your Series1 service in the UK, please visit tivo.com/UKSeries1<http://www.tivo.com/UKSeries1> for information.

If you are interested in taking advantage of the special offer that Virgin Media is extending to current UK Series1 subscribers who are in the Virgin Media service area, please go to virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade<http://www.virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade>.

Thank you,

TiVo Customer Support
_

Which kind of takes one back to square one by simply re-iterating what TiVo Inc have already kindly told us which is to go forth and multiply.

I note that in the TiVo blog that Joshua has not seen fit to answer all the questions re lack of upgrade path. Now, there's a surprise.


----------



## cashew1970

rilian said:


> I have a new, unopened TiVo PSU and spare peanut remote (boxed, new); headed for landfill I suppose but I'd planned to keep mine going indefinitely.
> 
> I use a (10 year old!) Sky Digibox (non-Plus). Does anyone know if there's a way to get Sky to upgrade me to a SkyPlus Digibox cheaply? I know they're dreadful but better than nothing I suppose. Maybe if I threaten to cancel...
> 
> Alternatively can a homebrew solution like MythTV record from Sky ?


Well I tried that.... as i did have a sky+ box , but it died... the sky wanted £200 for a standard sky+ box, or i could have a Sky+HD box for free, with £15 self installation (i already have the twin feeds) and £10.25 a monrh for a years commit.

So that is the way i have gone..... my only viable alternative... :-(

Sad, Sad days

Martin


----------



## unitron

katman said:


> The main difference being that the EPG has to be kept alive for those with S2 and higher machine so there isnt an inherant cost in doing so.


I've got a feeling that Tribune Media Services charges them more if they serve up the data to more subscribers, which would give them an incentive to get rid of non-revenue producing subscribers.



katman said:


> ... Am I right in thinking that there currently ISNT any hurdle to an S1 user moving onto a newer machine in the States (other than financial)...


Other than financial and the pain of saying goodbye to a faithful friend. : - )

But, yeah, we've got it a lot better over here.


----------



## Pete77

I have just received the below email as a result of my registration on Virgin's general Tivo website rather than one of the special ones only available to current Tivo S1 owners.

It does seem to me that the June Tivo S1 cutoff is particularly premature given that Virgin undoubtedly will not have installed a Tivo with anybody who wants to have one by that date if they failed to act in time and get themselves on one of the special Virgin S1 Tivo lists.



> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: TV heaven is just weeks away!
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:50:56 +0100 (CET)
> From: Virgin Media <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: no-reply <[email protected]>
> 
> *TV heaven is just weeks away*
> 
> Dear ______,
> 
> The countdown is on!
> 
> A little while ago, you let us know you were interested in our new TV service, Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo®. We're delighted you're as excited about the new service as we are! We're looking forward to bringing it to you as soon as we can. In fact, that's why we're getting in touch.
> 
> Here's the latest...
> 
> We've had an amazing response to our new service from our existing customers so will be offering them priority installations throughout March. We expect the new TiVo service to be available to the general public in April and we'll make sure that you're first in line before it does go on general sale. From then on you'll be able to search, browse, record and explore even more on your TV. Get set to transform your TV experience very soon!
> 
> We'll be in touch again nearer the time to bring you more of the details. For now, you can sit back, relax and wait for all the good stuff to come to you.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> 
> The Virgin Media team.


----------



## katman

cashew1970 said:


> i did have a sky+ box , but it died... the sky wanted £200 for a standard sky+ box, or i could have a Sky+HD box for free, with £15 self installation (i already have the twin feeds) and £10.25 a monrh for a years commit.


I currently have two SKY+ boxes one of which is connected to the Tivo. Its only becuase of Tivo that I didnt miss House restarting last week. It recorded it for me, the SKY+ boxes having dropped the series links because it took a break for Christmas.

Im going to ring SKY to reduce my package as I am currently paying over £50 per month and see what incentives they offer me to stay as I am. Would be nice if I could get an HD box from them but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## PhilG

Pete77 said:


> I have just received the below email as a result of my registration on Virgin's general Tivo website rather than one of the special ones only available to current Tivo S1 owners.
> 
> It does seem to me that the June Tivo S1 cutoff is particularly premature given that Virgin undoubtedly will not have installed a Tivo with anybody who wants to have one by that date if they failed to act in time and get themselves on one of the special Virgin S1 Tivo lists.


Yeah, I got one of these yesterday too - shame there is no contact information to call/mail to say "I WANT ONE BUT YOU WON'T/CAN'T GIVE ME ONE - I have no CABLE!!!" so why can't I keep what I have now??


----------



## PhilG

Also, the Tivo announcement about this here says



> Without the program guide data provided by the TiVo service, Series1 boxes will have limited - if any - functionality. They can still be used to view previously recorded programs and, under certain circumstances, may be used to record programs manually


Anyone know what "under certain circumstances" means??


----------



## katman

PhilG said:


> Also, the Tivo announcement about this here says
> 
> Anyone know what "under certain circumstances" means??


I would guess it means that Tivo already knows the channel exists, therefore which input to switch to, and that YOU know the details of when the program is on.


----------



## AMc

And you don't need to rerun guided setup - at which point I believe your are up a creek without a paddle because you need the phone call to complete.


----------



## Pete77

katman said:


> I would guess it means that Tivo already knows the channel exists, therefore which input to switch to, and that YOU know the details of when the program is on.


Some of the TivoWebPlus 2.1 modules for channel manipulation should I believe make it possible to revise channel numbers to align with current actual EPG patterns. Even new +1 channels and the like could be created by cannibalising useless FTA channels of the likes of Sumo Tv or My Channel on the Sky platform, not to mention all the 900 range channels.

Hard drive failure could presumably only be recovered by restoring a complete image of the Tivo hard drive in its last known good state if the Tivo was unable to call in. Is there any way to accomplish this through the Cachecard and my local home network and router? I assume not and that I would have to pull the drive to accomplish this.

I do already have backups of the hack directory using Filezilla


----------



## alan_semple

katman said:


> I would guess it means that Tivo already knows the channel exists, therefore which input to switch to, and that YOU know the details of when the program is on.


Also known as "Boat Anchor Mode", because that's what it's as usefull as when the Guide data runs out.

FWIW
Slighty better than Sky+ which disables manual recording without either a valid Sky subscription or paying Sky £10 a month for FTA recording.

I am not sure if Sky still activate "£10 FTA record" for Sky+ customers who cancel their contract now.

BTW
Re: The "exclusive to Sky customers" part of the Tivo statement.

I purchased my Tivo through a discount offered by NTL.
but it was probably just processed through an alternate Sky/Tivo CS number.

Alan


----------



## BlackPrince

spitfires said:


> will have given everyone free Service for over 6 months


How so?


----------



## ramtops

tudedude said:


> Regards from Tudor


Waves!


----------



## BlackPrince

Does one have to have Virgin cable to be able to use the new TiVos, or is there someone way of hooking up the new boxes to ignore the cable input and just use terrestrial channels?


----------



## dmd

BlackPrince said:


> How so?


It appears that I will have received service for a lifetime plus a free 6 months. That's a real bargain!


----------



## alek

spitfires said:


> have given everyone free Service for over 6 months


I haven't had anything free from them.

I paid a tenner a month for years and then bought a lifetime sub. Which I understood to be the life of the box.

I don't feel too badly done by, on the other hand I would have been happy to continue as it was.

However I am the kind of person who sees everything as an opportunity rather than a disaster.

Reading the input at Tivoland I expect we will come out of this with a better system than before at minmal cost.

Alek


----------



## sad_tivo_man

unitron said:


> ..... which would give them an incentive to get rid of non-revenue producing subscribers.
> ......


And who's fault was that, that they have non-revenue producing subscribers? Certainly not ours but TiVo Inc who appear to have made no effort to set up an alternative. Clearly once the VirginMedia deal was signed, the writing was on the wall as far as the BSkyB support was concerned.

But TiVo...if they cared about their loyal customer base ....could (and still can) provide an alternative service. I don't think that it has anything to do with VirginMedia the fact that TiVo are not supporting us any more but purely a decision inside TiVo Inc.

Which means that the chances of them doing the same to US customers is quite possible.


----------



## alextegg

alek said:


> However I am the kind of person who sees everything as an opportunity rather than a disaster.
> 
> Reading the input at Tivoland I expect we will come out of this with a better system than before at minmal cost.
> 
> Alek


I'm with you !


----------



## steveroe

BlackPrince said:


> Does one have to have Virgin cable to be able to use the new TiVos, or is there someone way of hooking up the new boxes to
> ignore the cable input and just use terrestrial channels?




You need to have Virgin cable.


----------



## BlackPrince

Such a shame that after their first offering being such an open device, TiVo have chosen to replace with a very closed one


----------



## TCM2007

S1's weren't open. But clever hackers like Tridge opened it up!


----------



## mikerr

BlackPrince said:


> Such a shame that after their first offering being such an open device, TiVo have chosen to replace with a very closed one


Every tivo has become progressively more locked down since S1

The S1 wasn't left relatively open deliberately.


----------



## BlackPrince

TCM2007 said:


> S1's weren't open


I could plug in any source, not just the ones nailed down inside the box.


----------



## TCM2007

ah, see what you meant.


----------



## ALanJay

healeydave said:


> I think what narks many off, is TiVo EPG servers are in the USA and they are going no-where. They will be continue to be used to supply guide data to USA S1, S2, S3 units etc.
> I believe they will be suppling guide data to the UK VM box too.
> 
> We all appreciate the technical support for PVR10UK boxes via the Sky call centre had to end and are quite happy to handle it ourselves, that's a given, we've been doing it for years already.
> I'm not sure how much cost involvement would be attributed to continuing to supply UK S1 boxes, hell, if it helped, I think most people would have been happy for the DUN POP number to go to curb all costs this side of the pond, if it helped keep the guide available, all-be-it only though a Cache/Turbonet card!


Totally agree


----------



## mikerr

BlackPrince said:


> I could plug in any source, not just the ones nailed down inside the box.


but the downside of that was single channel record, and it degraded the picture quality.


----------



## filbert

Saw the news yesterday a real shame. Had mine since sometime in 2002 and bought a lifetime sub immediately so from that pov had my money worth. After a few years use my dial up just stopped working - roughly when I got ADSL. So I then updated to turbonet and a larger HD. It's been getting guide data over the net for years now. I've had a couple of peanuts and resuscitated the old girl with after a HD failure since then but overall it has to be the most reliable bit of kit I've had. Just doing its job 24x7 as evidenced by how little I've had to post on these forums in that time .

That said we upgraded from a 32" to 40" LCD with HD freeview just before Xmas and the picture quality is now noticeably soft on the larger screen. So from watching everything through the Tivo we now use the TV tuner a lot more especially for Freeview HD.

Either way I will follow guide data developments with interest.


----------



## taid

I am feeling a lot more positive now after following this thread and looking around the net ..

but It seems there may be 2 or more groups looking at solutions ..


I hope that eventually a single protocol can be agreed and that whatever is set up will be a dependable, maintained function for a long time to come ..

All I want is my TiVo to work with existing technology and not bother about HD etc


----------



## Glen

I contacted Virgin Media about the cable in my street and this is what i received back:

Hi Glen



> Thank you for your enquiry regarding Virgin Media providing digital services at your home.
> 
> Unfortunately this area is too far from our existing network to be cabled by our infill activity.
> 
> To cable this area would require a major network extension. At this time, there are no immediate plans to extend the network into new areas if this requires main build  as this is very expensive. As we find new ways of serving areas such as this that are outwith the existing network, we will look at your request further and may be able to include this in build programmes in future years. However at this time, we will not be able to provide cable service to this area.
> 
> I appreciate this is not good news, but be assured our team have investigated this and will continue to look for other solutions that may help us achieve this in the future.
> 
> Best regards


Years!


----------



## spitfires

BlackPrince said:


> spitfires said:
> 
> 
> 
> will have given everyone free Service for over 6 months
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...

Last money taken from TAMs: September 2010. Oct 10 -> May 11 = 8 months free subscription.

Notional lifetime of Lifetime Sub = £199 / £10 = 20 months. So if you've had the LS for more than 20 months you have therefore been receiving "free" service for all that time. If you've had the LS for less than 20 months then yes I concede you have lost out.



alek said:


> and then bought a lifetime sub. Which I understood to be the life of the box.


No, it's a "subscription" to a service; it's valid only for as long as the service is provided, not the life of the hardware.

If your credit card company cancels your account but you still have the card in one piece does that mean the card will still work?

(The Clause in the Agreement dealing with changing faulty hardware have no bearing or influence on the provision and duration of the service).


----------



## EdGillett

Let's all pitch up in a pub with our peanut remotes for a pint 

That's probably the saddest thing I've ever suggested on the internet.


----------



## taid

A wish list (well, 1 wish) for you guys who know how things work

If you manage to do the necessary to save my TiVo from the skip, would it be possible to make it allow two satellite receivers .. the current set up will allow sat and cable or terrestrial but not two of the same ..

Currently, we may watch something on terrestrial when Tivo is recording something else , but that facility goes when they end terrestrial signals .. I have an old sky box as well as the freesat .. would be nice to be able to hook both in


----------



## katman

EdGillett said:


> That's probably the saddest thing I've ever suggested on the internet.


but most definately NOT the saddest thing ever suggested on the internet LOL


----------



## irrelevant

Glen said:


> I contacted Virgin Media about the cable in my street and this is what i received back:
> 
> Years!


Exact same cut-and-past reply that I got...


----------



## pemills

Checkout this forum thread at Tivoland.com

http://*******.com/4noc6lu


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

John Christian's reply to the blog post is one slightly more happy than others!


----------



## cwaring

cwaring said:


> You mention "3 or 4 thousand". Well, they've already had *tens of thousands* of pre-registrations, so I don't think they'll be _too_ worried about S1 owners; over and above their contractual obligations to them.





jeremy9911 said:


> Tens of thousands. Where did you get that figure from - Virgin Media, perchance? Right.


http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/


> Virgin's CEO Neil Berkett revealed to Cable.co.uk (and Dow Jones Newswires) that so far, 50,000 pre-registrations have been received for the next-generation PVR.


Oh look. I was right; _again_. Some people are just going to have to accept that I do actually know what I'm talking about; most of the time


----------



## alextegg

Erm, why are we going to have to accept that ?


----------



## daveh

cwaring said:


> http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/
> 
> Oh look. I was right; _again_. Some people are just going to have to accept that I do actually know what I'm talking about; most of the time


I pre-registered just to see what the offer was. I'm not taking the offer though, and I suspect others did the same. So perhaps you are not quite as clever as you seem to think you are.


----------



## BlackPrince

spitfires said:


> Notional lifetime of Lifetime Sub = £199 / £10 = 20 months. So if you've had the LS for more than 20 months you have therefore been receiving "free" service for all that time.


I note you put "free" in quotes, so I assume that you acknowledge that it isn't free. I paid £200 upfront for the lifetime sub. That wasn't a prepay for 20 months, but for the life of box/service. I have not been receiving a free service - I've been receiving one I paid for upfront.


----------



## cwaring

alextegg said:


> Erm, why are we going to have to accept that ?


Because I was right, again, after being doubted. I don't, generally, make stuff up 



daveh said:


> I pre-registered just to see what the offer was. I'm not taking the offer though, and I suspect others did the same. So perhaps you are not quite as clever as you seem to think you are.


Why not? I said they said "tens of thousands had pre-registered". They said nothing about all of them taking the service


----------



## BlackPrince

mikerr said:


> but the downside of that was single channel record, and it degraded the picture quality.


My S1 TiVo does/did what I want. I assume the same for everyone else here - aren't we all using TiVo S1?


----------



## anyoneinracks

I bought an Humax and was severly dissapointed by the number of ways that it was inferior to a basic S1 Tivo (straight out of the box). Surely after all those years someone could have made something better, but apparently not. Now the best is being taken away from us. Robing bs.:down:


----------



## daveburrows

Anyone on Twitter please also help and follow @TiVoUK - They're trying to petition TiVo on Social Networking too.

http://www.twitter.com/tivouk


----------



## cwaring

Wow! Talk about spin and bias.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/39241671233372160"Many loyal @TiVo UK customers have been loyal for up to 10 years, TiVo now pulling the plug on them... US TiVo's are next!"


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/39243528009809920"If @TiVo pull the plug on UK TiVo customers just think how quick Virgin Media TiVo customers will have the plug pulled when they fall out?"


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/39238903588339712"@TiVo US customers watch out....Your Series 1, 2, 3 will be next to be removed. "

And my personal favourite
"10 years and @TiVo is now dead for the UK courtesy of TiVo pulling the plug on EPG - everyone move to Sky + HD now!"

It's ironic that you would recommend switching to the very company that screwed Tivo over causing them to pull out of the UK last time; and the very reason they chose to go with VM this time! Also, what about Freesat/Freeview?

I think you would do a lot better to drop the bad attitiude.


----------



## djqster

cwaring said:


> And my personal favourite
> "10 years and @TiVo is now dead for the UK courtesy of TiVo pulling the plug on EPG - everyone move to Sky + HD now!"


Hey! Girlfriend dumped you?

Quick. Put your genitals in a blender! That'll show her!


----------



## irrelevant

djqster said:


> Hey! Girlfriend dumped you?
> 
> Quick. Put your genitals in a blender! That'll show her!


 Now, where's that "like" button when you need it..!


----------



## katman

cwaring said:


> And my personal favourite
> "10 years and @TiVo is now dead for the UK courtesy of TiVo pulling the plug on EPG - everyone move to Sky + HD now!"
> 
> It's ironic that you would recommend switching to the very company that screwed Tivo over causing them to pull out of the UK last time; and the very reason they chose to go with VM this time! Also, what about Freesat/Freeview?


I have no plans to PAY Sky for HD, its bad enough that I have to pay them to be able to receive Discovery/NatGeo/History channels but being unable to get Virgin its either that or nothing


----------



## tivofromdayone

Its been a long time since I was on here. Tivo has worked so well I forget everything going on behind the scenes. My tivo (and the one my mother uses) are both lifetime sub units, both modified with large drives, mine with a cachecard fitted hers not. sisters is standard. Over the years I have replaced one PSU and 2 complete tivo units. I was deeply saddened to see we were getting cut loose in favour of VM and their exclusive Tivo use. No matter how you look at it, those of us who dont want VM are losing out big time here. Even those who do want it are paying a lot more fro the option. Wouldnt you think VM would carry on the service as a goodwill gesture instead of making enemies of those losing it. Anyway, I figured I would write to the Gadget show as well as posting on forums. It may not go anywhere, and the reply from the gadget show may well be a stock response. But below is the email from them along with the original text I sent them. Who knows, maybe the GS will say what a bunch of gits the people in charge are.









----------------------------------------------------------

My mail to GS:-

From: [email protected]'not required on a forum and removed'.com
To: Gadget Show
Subject: The death of Tivo

June the 1st sees the end of the series 1 Tivo. Many likely think it died almost 10 years ago when Tivo pulled out of the Uk, but for a large number of users the machine worked faultlessly for the intervening years.

It survived the initial bailout of Tivo and lived on under sky's banner. It worked through the analogue switch off and was a staple unit for many despite the few shortcomings of quality and the fact it could only record one channel. The Tivo community as a whole though were happy to soldier on as the interface is/was the best around. Few could ever say that the Tivo series one failed to live up to expectations. Picking out films and actors from its own 'mind' compared with the rudimentary offerings of others made Tivo a must have for those who had used them. It was a shame that series 2 and onwards were not an option for us in the UK, as the newer boxes had so much to make them worthwhile, but series one thomson was our lot.

Come June 1st the Tivo series one is finally to be killed off. No more epg and no more usefulness under the tv. As a result many of us are now hunting for alternatives, in my case and the families for the most part it is freeview and the HD recorders that are now in our sights. I already have sky+ and yet feel no 'good feeling' when it comes to the frankly lousy interface of the pace box. It is less than friendly, has very limited functionality beyond the basics, even the way the screen looks is inferior on the menu system with many titles partially shown as they dont fit the boxes. Searching for programmes is painful at the best of times as it only allows the first letter of a word then you have to scroll through hundreds of programmes to find what you want. At times you are better served looking for a program by going to the next letter in the aphabet and working backwards. Tivo's user interface beat it hands down in every way.

So thanks to Tivo re-entering the market in the UK under the guise of Virgin medias box , the previously loyal customers of the original thomson tivo have been told they will be getting cut off in June. Nice of Tivo and VM. Can somebody remind them to clean the blade and hide it once it has been removed from our backs. The official line is that users can 'upgrade' to VM and still have Tivo. Not an option for many as they either cannot get VM in their area, or like us they are already tied into a sky contract or perhaps they just dont want VM.

I will miss tivo once it has gone, but the sour taste left by VM and Tivo inc will last for some time to come.

Why do I write this? because the forums of the Tivo community are alight with outrage at the way the old guard are being cut off, especially those who cannot get VM. Suddenly these same loyal customers now need a PVR, it might be nice to do a round up of the freeview pvr/hd boxes as not only are these people looking for replacements, but freeview has come a long way since the early days and the choices are both wide ranging in price and quality.

I hope this has at least piqued some interest. Old technology tivo series one may have been, but still leaps and bounds beyond the competition. So much so it looks like VM and Tivo have killed it so that the new kid on the block can rule unchallenged
------------------------------------------------------
Mail from Gadget Show:-

Hi,

Sorry to hear you're having trouble. We have some features about HD Freeview boxes coming up and hopefully this will provide an insight.

We'd recommend checking this link out http://fwd.five.tv/gadget-show/videos/other/customer-service as it gives you advice for people with problems with customer services.

We'll also pass your details onto our development team.

I hope you continue to enjoy the current series.

Best wishes,

The Gadget Show Team

http://www.five.tv/gadgetshow


----------



## GWR71

sad_tivo_man said:


> Which means that the chances of them doing the same to US customers is quite possible.


Until you actually consider the colossal differences in the situation and state of the market for the early TiVos in the US and the UK, at which point the idea that TiVo US will decide to abandon the S1 units becomes patently ridiculous.

I was always a huge TiVangelist. I was a member of this forum until I left the UK to do the expat thing in the Middle East, and I sold my TiVo at that time. It was a real wrench, but even then (in 2005) I had to concede that its lifespan was clearly limited and the service might well cease to function before I came back to to the UK permanently.

As others here have pointed out, it's simply not worth TiVo's while maintaining its loss-making S1 guide data service any longer. It's a calculated business decision. It's already survived much longer than I think any of us had any right to expect. I suspect that TiVo has been toying with the idea of cancelling the service for years, and now that it's found a way back into the UK market with Virgin Media, it's got something of an excuse for doing so.

I can't help thinking that the idea that TiVo's actions will cause enough bad publicity to force an about-turn is somewhat far-fetched. I don't know what the size of the S1 UK user base is these days, but I imagine that it's not particularly significant. The reaction of most British people to the story that "TiVo is abandoning its loyal customers in the UK!" isn't going to be righteous indignation and a boycott of VM, it's going to be "Eh? What's TiVo?" - and there, in a nutshell, is the crux of the problem.

The painful truth is that many former TiVangelists will have moved on, quite probably reluctantly, but moved on nevertheless. I know for a fact that if I was still in the UK, I would be on Sky+ HD by now, simply because I want my PVR to be able to handle HD programming and the S1 TiVo will never be able to do that.

All that said, I really do hope that some kind of community-led solution to the provision of guide data becomes available. I remember that we were talking about this 8-9 years ago, after it became clear that Thomson had abandoned TiVo and Sky+ seemed all-powerful. There was concern even back then that TiVo might just decide to kill the service and have done with it.

I honestly think that if anyone back then had said "The S1 service will definitely be available until the middle of 2011", they'd have been considered hopelessly optimistic...


----------



## sad_tivo_man

GWR71 said:


> ......its loss-making S1 guide data service .....


And your evidence to support this statement is ....?


----------



## spitfires

@GWR71 Good points, well put.



GWR71 said:


> I honestly think that if anyone back then had said "The S1 service will definitely be available until the middle of 2011", they'd have been considered hopelessly optimistic...


True. Although I'm sure his "Royal Smugness" will disagree.


----------



## TCM2007

sad_tivo_man said:


> And your evidence to support this statement is ....?


Common sense?

The £10 a month price will have been set to make money given a certain number of subs. It's highly unlikely they ever reached that number.

If the service was making money, it would still be going.


----------



## alek

TCM2007 said:


> If the service was making money, it would still be going.


I think it's safe to assume the service was making money. Even 1000 tivos at £10 per month would more than cover the cost of providing the epg.

Whether it was making enough money well thats a whole different question

Alek


----------



## cwaring

tivofromdayone said:


> So thanks to Tivo re-entering the market in the UK under the guise of Virgin medias box , the previously loyal customers of the original thomson tivo have been told they will be getting cut off in June. Nice of Tivo and VM.


Has it not already been stated by Tivo that the two incidents are not actually connected? I could have sworn I read it on here recently.



TCM2007 said:


> Common sense?


Does seem to be rather lacking around here in some posters 



alek said:


> Even 1000 tivos at £10 per month would more than cover the cost of providing the epg.


I wasn't aware that the cost of the EPG had ever been stated. Please cite a credible source for this information. You may well be right but it is still pure speculation.


----------



## alek

cwaring said:


> You may well be right but it is still pure speculation.


Yes of course it's pure speculation.

Do you speculate that it is far from the truth.

Alek


----------



## alextegg

cwaring said:


> Does seem to be rather lacking around here in some posters




Oh, the irony !


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> True. Although I'm sure his "Royal Smugness" will disagree.


And who exactly is his "Royal Smugness". Are you referring to that annoying person living in Virgin Media land who is so pleased that Tivo are going to give him a new box and couldn't care less about those of us in non Virgin land who won't have a Tivo service any more.


----------



## cwaring

^ I know of no-one around here fitting that description. If there was such a person they wouldn't have...

a. agreed that the decision by Tivo was bad.
b. been _one of the first_ to sign the Petition linked to elsewhere on this forum.
c. added their support to the effort to produce a third-party EPG.

Yes or no?


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> ^ I know of no-one around here fitting that description. If there was such a person they wouldn't have...
> 
> a. agreed that the decision by Tivo was bad.
> b. been _one of the first_ to sign the Petition linked to elsewhere on this forum.
> c. added their support to the effort to produce a third-party EPG.


All very fair points Carl. But I still think to see just how bad Tivo's decision on the S1 service is you need to be sitting here looking at potentially having no Tivo service after June 1st.

As to the new community effort I do of course plan to help in any way at all that I can. Checking the EPG for completeness and accuracy would be where my main skills would lie given my past data collection and database management role.

Oh and finally have you ordered a new Virgin Tivo or had it installed yet as I don't recall you posting anywhere on the forums to the effect that you had placed such an order?


----------



## sad_tivo_man

Pete77 said:


> And who exactly is his "Royal Smugness". .....


I've been a member of many forums over the last 7-8 years and in all that time I have only seen one person smug enough to post their picture as an avatar.


----------



## alextegg

Roflmao


----------



## cwaring

Pete77 said:


> All very fair points Carl.


Then will you (and others) please stop accusing me of whatever-the-hell it was; not caring, etc. As it is obviously, plainly _not true_.



Pete77 said:


> Oh and finally have you ordered a new Virgin Tivo or had it installed yet as I don't recall you posting anywhere on the forums to the effect that you had placed such an order?


It _has_ been mentioned; but maybe only quietly. Don't want to be seen to be bragging, do I?   

Installed in the last hour. Now off to have a play.


----------



## Pete77

sad_tivo_man said:


> I've been a member of many forums over the last 7-8 years and in all that time I have only seen one person smug enough to post their picture as an avatar.


TCM2007 used to post his picture on these forums in the days when he used to be known as Sanderton and I believe warrenrb has also posted his actual picture at times, even though he currently displays some more cartoon like image. I think there are also another two or three members who do post their own picture as an avatar in this forum. steveroe (another of my long term critics on the forum) also posts his photo as an avatar as you can see by referring to page 1 of this thead.

Automan also posts his photo in his Avatar (see page 1 of the thread again) and a more informed, knowledgeable and useful member of the forum I find it hard to think of so I don't know that posting one's own mugshot is necessarily proof of anything. kitschcamp also posts his photo and I can only describe his posts in the forums as being useful, interesting and informative. On the other hand I can think of several other extremely antagonistic and negative members of the forum who don't post their own photo in their avatars.

So with respect sad_tivo_man it would appear you need to check your facts in relation to your previous comment about forum avatars quoted above.


----------



## TCM2007

alek said:


> I think it's safe to assume the service was making money. Even 1000 tivos at £10 per month would more than cover the cost of providing the epg.
> 
> Whether it was making enough money well thats a whole different question
> 
> Alek


I don't believe TiVo or Tribune have ever published the details of the financial arrangement for supplying the EPG. It's not a simple feed from AP, it contains a lot of heavily customised metadata and would need full time staff to create it.

It's also not the only cost; the daily call from those Tivos is to an 0800 number which has to be paid for. The support lines have to be paid for.

I very much doubt TiVo ever cleared a penny from the UK.


----------



## cwaring

sad_tivo_man said:


> I've been a member of many forums over the last 7-8 years and in all that time I have only seen one person smug enough to post their picture as an avatar.


Yes. That's me and it's a real picture along with my real name too. So what? Why is it "smugness"? I am me. I don't hide behind pseudonyms. (and yes, that's probably spelled wrongly )


Pete77 said:


> So with respect sad_tivo_man it would appear you need to check your facts in relation to your previous comment about forum avatars quoted above.


Facts? From him? Not a chance.


----------



## johala_reewi

sad_tivo_man said:


> I've been a member of many forums over the last 7-8 years and in all that time I have only seen one person smug enough to post their picture as an avatar.


There are several on this forum who use their picture as their avatar.


----------



## steveroe

Pete77 said:


> I think there are also another two or three members who do post their own picture as an avatar in this forum. steveroe (another of my long term critics on the forum) also posts his photo as an avatar as you can see by referring to page 1 of this thead.


:up:


----------



## riggers

sad_tivo_man said:


> I've been a member of many forums over the last 7-8 years and in all that time I have only seen one person smug enough to post their picture as an avatar.


How do you know it's a photo of himself?

Going back on topic.

In my opinion, Tivo S1 is the best gadget I've ever bought.

I feel disappointed that Tivo have done what they've done but I haven't got the heart to criticise them.

Just hope they accept gracefully our attempts to keep their product going.


----------



## AENG

It would be a real pleasure, just now and again, to log on to this forum and find just useful information instead of continuous "oh, yes I did", "oh no you didn't"-style sniping. Give it a rest, fellas! I'm sure you've got better things to do really.


----------



## Pete77

johala_reewi said:


> There are several on this forum who use their picture as their avatar.


Correct. For instance britcub and b166er (or something similar - anyhow the chap using a Tivo in Germany with a Union Jack behind his mugshot) also post photos of themselves in their avatar too.

I don't see any particular pattern to the kind of person who posts a photo of themselves. Some are people who I often agree with and some are people who I frequently disagree with.


----------



## alextegg

AENG said:


> It would be a real pleasure, just now and again, to log on to this forum and find just useful information instead of continuous "oh, yes I did", "oh no you didn't"-style sniping. Give it a rest, fellas! I'm sure you've got better things to do really.


:up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up:


----------



## Nimbus

AENG said:


> It would be a real pleasure, just now and again, to log on to this forum and find just useful information instead of continuous "oh, yes I did", "oh no you didn't"-style sniping. Give it a rest, fellas! I'm sure you've got better things to do really.


indeed ! or at least keep it to the one thread


----------



## ALanJay

cwaring said:


> It's ironic that you would recommend switching to the very company that screwed Tivo over causing them to pull out of the UK last time; and the very reason they chose to go with VM this time! Also, what about Freesat/Freeview?


I think it is ironic that Sky are being blamed when at the time sky was their partner in a very loose maner providing support in exchange for branding (though I seem to remember Sky invested in TiVo as well).

At the time Sky had no PVR solution and they knew this was the way to go unfortunately at the time TiVo wasn't particularly easy to install or interface with your STB (Sky / Virgin / etc) so it wasn't that surprising that Sky looked for an integrated solution more suitable to their customer base.

But at the time the TiVo series one would work with any input be it Sky / Virgin other cable or terrestrial. It is that openness which gained it a loyal (if small) following.

It is a shame that TiVo didn't manage to find a partner who felt there was an opportunity with an open solution but we have ended up with TiVo going with Virgin limiting the accessibility for the product and terminating the current boxes  the end of an era (and the beginning of a new one).


----------



## TCM2007

You're being a bit generous Alan. Sky+ came out within a year of TiVo if memory serves - Sky must have known perfectly well that was their plan (Sky+ was developed by NDS, a News Corp company).

However TiVo's real erro was partnering with Thomson, a French no-name brand with a poor rep for AV equipment (AFAIK thay have now pulled out of AV entirely).

A Sony (as in the US) or Pana TiVo would have been quite different.


----------



## GWR71

TCM2007 said:


> You're being a bit generous Alan. Sky+ came out within a year of TiVo if memory serves - Sky must have known perfectly well that was their plan


Yes, surely Sky+ was well along in development before the Thomson TiVo went on sale?

I suspect that Sky's investment in TiVo was more with an eye to reaping the benefits of what they hoped would become the leader in the non-Sky PVR market than any desire to see Sky subscribers using TiVos.



> However TiVo's real erro was partnering with Thomson, a French no-name brand with a poor rep for AV equipment


Did they have any choice?

If they'd had the opportunity to go with a Sony or Panasonic and turned it down in favour of Thomson, then yes, that would have been an error... but is that what happened? Or was Thomson the only company that was interested in partnering with TiVo in the UK?


----------



## Pete77

ALanJay said:


> At the time Sky had no PVR solution and they knew this was the way to go unfortunately at the time TiVo wasn't particularly easy to install or interface with your STB (Sky / Virgin / etc) so it wasn't that surprising that Sky looked for an integrated solution more suitable to their customer base.


I believe that at the time of the UK Tivo launch in late 2000 that in the USA Tivo had already entered partnership with the likes of DirecTv and other cable operators that allowed them to produce their own boxes running the Tivo operating system in the same way as will now be the case with the Virgin Media Tivo. That is that the tuner for the cable system was on board the same box as the Tivo and no complicated hooking up of cables to external boxes was required.

Also despite Tivo's attempt to now rewrite history and suggest it was a Sky only associated product in the UK (seemingly their excuse for now withdrawing the service given the relaunch with Virgin) Tivo actually came with an on board analogue tv tuner that allowed it to run standalone with just an RF aerial cable plugged in to it receiving the five main terrestrial channels on UHF 21-69. A Sky box as well as a then NTL cable box or an OnDigital/DTT box were all additional options that you could run alongside the internal UHF tuner. So actually with the internal UHF tuner the UK Tivo S1 was actually simple to operate. Mike of Tivocentral has previously reported that many of his customers replacing Tivo S1 hard drives were still only using the on board analogue tuner as their only program source.


----------



## davisa

TCM2007 said:


> However TiVo's real erro was partnering with Thomson, a French no-name brand with a poor rep for AV equipment (AFAIK thay have now pulled out of AV entirely).
> 
> A Sony (as in the US) or Pana TiVo would have been quite different.


Lucky for us that they did - as I wouldn't hold out much hope for Sony or Panasonic equipment being as well built, or lasting as well as the Thomson has.


----------



## TCM2007

It was built to a reference design, all they did was assemble it. I believe the US ones were so identical you could buy the black front panel from one and it just fits!


----------



## BrianHughes

AENG said:


> It would be a real pleasure, just now and again, to log on to this forum and find just useful information instead of continuous "oh, yes I did", "oh no you didn't"-style sniping. Give it a rest, fellas! I'm sure you've got better things to do really.


Yes, dear God, please!!!


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> It was built to a reference design, all they did was assemble it. I believe the US ones were so identical you could buy the black front panel from one and it just fits!


Indeed. I seem to remember Cyril doing that on at least a couple of his; and selling them on ebay


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> It was built to a reference design, all they did was assemble it. I believe the US ones were so identical you could buy the black front panel from one and it just fits!


I don't think you could try that with the back plates given all those SCART sockets on a UK Tivo S1 compared to the funny little connectors they use over in the USA.


----------



## ALanJay

TCM2007 said:


> You're being a bit generous Alan. Sky+ came out within a year of TiVo if memory serves - Sky must have known perfectly well that was their plan (Sky+ was developed by NDS, a News Corp company).
> 
> However TiVo's real erro was partnering with Thomson, a French no-name brand with a poor rep for AV equipment (AFAIK thay have now pulled out of AV entirely).
> 
> A Sony (as in the US) or Pana TiVo would have been quite different.


Maybe (any you are correct a big brand would have helped) but I knew a number of people at Sky at the time and there was a lot of high level support for TiVo.


----------



## katman

Maybe Thomsons decision to stop making boxes for Tivo has something to do with the fact that they ended up making lots more boxes for SKY+ and as Pace also had a not inconsiderable role in making both Sky and Sky+ boxes there was no way they would jeapordise that by making Tivos


----------



## AMc

I think the fact that there was a ton of inventory in retail and parts bins full of bits with no sign of it moving were a key factor with Thomson. 

IIRC there were lots and lots of Tivo users who bought in when Powerhouse, Currys etc. cleared their existing stock at £99. As the list price was £399 at launch that implies that the stock was never going to shift at a profit. I got mine from a guy called Mr Tonks on here for £230 which a few short months later seemed like a lot. Still worth every penny though.

I think the S1 was so far ahead of its time that it didn't fit the big box retail manufacturing or retail channels.

I mourn its passing but I'm not sure it was Thomson or Tivo or Sky who were completely to blame.


----------



## CouchPotato

alek said:


> I think it's safe to assume the service was making money. Even 1000 tivos at £10 per month would more than cover the cost of providing the epg.
> 
> Whether it was making enough money well thats a whole different question
> 
> Alek


Wow. Just wow.

I'm as disappointed as everyone else here at TiVo dropping S1 support in the UK. I bought my first TiVo in 2000 when I saw it in Best Buy in San Francisco. I bought two DirecTV TiVos when they arrived on the scene a year or so later. I bought the last Thomson TiVo in my local Comet when I moved back to the UK in 2002, and I'm still using (and loving) it to this day. Every one of these was upgraded and hacked as much as possible, and every one was/is on a monthly subscription.

By my rough calculations I've paid TiVo Inc. on the order of £2,000 (disclaimer: I've had a few beers tonight so this could be wrong ) over the last eleven years. I think I've had amazing value for that money. I also think it probably doesn't come close to what it has cost TiVo Inc. to provide me with their product and service - an assertion I would argue is borne out by that fact that 2009 was TiVo Inc's first profitable year.

Blindly asserting that £10,000 per month is enough to provide 1,000 users with guide data seems to me to be completely disconnected from reality. Even discounting the need to recover development and R&D costs, and the payments required to Tribune, that £10,000 per month amounts to £120K annually, which is barely enough to employ two people in IT (I work in the software/IT services industry) when on-costs and overheads are included. And this is without including the 0800 call costs being borne by TiVo.

The simple fact of the matter is that a standalone TiVo Service in a country the size of the UK is probably unsustainable. A TiVo licensing model with VM (and other operators in other countries) is much more commercially viable. And given TiVo's lack of existing penetration in the UK market it would have been remarkable if VM hadn't obtained an exclusivity deal - which I believe is the key driver behind this recent decision. Because, what's the point of exclusivity if it isn't exclusive?

I don't like this situation. I love my TiVo and I will lament its passing - I live in a non-VM area so trading up isn't an option. But I understand the commercial reasons behind it, and I wish TiVo and Virgin well in the future.


----------



## CouchPotato

PS Should have said, I'm now seriously looking at BT Vision given that I have BT Infinity Broadband. Can anyone point me at reviews?


----------



## cwaring

CouchPotato said:


> Wow. Just wow.... {snip}


Well said, CP


----------



## alek

CouchPotato said:


> Blindly asserting that £10,000 per month is enough to provide 1,000 users with guide data seems to me to be completely disconnected from reality. Even discounting the need to recover development and R&D costs, and the payments required to Tribune, that £10,000 per month amounts to £120K annually, which is barely enough to employ two people in IT (I work in the software/IT services industry) when on-costs and overheads are included. And this is without including the 0800 call costs being borne by TiVo.


As previously discussed, I didn't blindly assert, I speculated.

At this point there is no need to include r&D costs on a 10+ yo product.

Nobody seems to know how much tribune gets for supplying the data.

I seriously doubt it would take two full time it professionals @ 60 grand a year to run the show.

Alek


----------



## TCM2007

The costs would be incurred by Tribune - the EPG doesn't create itself. If you have machines do it then you end up with rubbish like the other PVRs use.


----------



## CouchPotato

alek said:


> As previously discussed, I didn't blindly assert, I speculated.


Then I'm suggesting your speculation is wildly off the mark. I should say I base my comments on working in the software/services industry 
for the past 15-20 years.



> At this point there is no need to include r&D costs on a 10+ yo product.


And how does the product continue to evolve then? Did TiVo Inc. sack all their developers once S1 came on the market??



> Nobody seems to know how much tribune gets for supplying the data.


True. My guess is that it's less than 20% of the ongoing TiVo UK support costs, but that is just a (n educated) guess.



> I seriously doubt it would take two full time it professionals @ 60 grand a year to run the show.


And this is where I have to fundamentally disagree. It's pretty much impossible to run any size of organisation serving 1000+ users with just one individual (and I speak as someone who has experienced trying something similar ). And remember, in your example the £120K annual cost has to cover everything, not just salaries. And, in case you've never employed anyone, a £60K cost equates to (in a conservative estimate) a £50K salary - the employer has to add on NI, insurance, benefits (e.g. BUPA and the like), overheads (insurance, office space, and on and on).

£120K annually doesn't go very far.

There is, of course, a simple test of my assertions. if it's possible to provide the TiVo service to UK users at the £10/month price and make a profitable business doing so, then undoubtedly someone will provide it - I guess we'll soon find out.


----------



## spitfires

CouchPotato said:


> alek said:
> 
> 
> 
> At this point there is no need to include r&D costs on a 10+ yo product.
> 
> 
> 
> And how does the product continue to evolve then? Did TiVo Inc. sack all their developers once S1 came on the market??
Click to expand...

That's R&D for _future_ versions which will be amortised within the cost of the S2/3/4. It should not be included within the cost of the S1. Did the Ford Anglia lose money because Ford developed the Probe some 30 years later?

R&D costs are amortised over the expected lifetime of the product in question - which in this case was c. 4 years (i.e. the point at which TiVo expected the S2 to go on sale). After that point all development costs are either written off or marginal.

(and yes I _do_ have a MBA)


----------



## alek

Then I'm suggesting your speculation is wildly off the mark.

I speculate, you suggest. Not much difference really

And how does the product continue to evolve then? Did TiVo Inc. sack all their developers once S1 came on the market??

The product didn't evolve. "We" never got past s1

True. My guess is that it's less than 20% of the ongoing TiVo UK support costs, but that is just a (n educated) guess.

Speculate, suggest or guess. amounts to the same thing

And this is where I have to fundamentally disagree. It's pretty much impossible to run any size of organisation serving 1000+ users with just one individual (and I speak as someone who has experienced trying something similar ). And remember, in your example the £120K annual cost has to cover everything, not just salaries. And, in case you've never employed anyone, a £60K cost equates to (in a conservative estimate) a £50K salary - the employer has to add on NI, insurance, benefits (e.g. BUPA and the like), overheads (insurance, office space, and on and on).

"We" are not talking about a stand alone operation The uk operation is/was only a small part of the bigger picture. I still speculate/guess/estimate or dream that it was not losing money

£120K annually doesn't go very far.

There is, of course, a simple test of my assertions. if it's possible to provide the TiVo service to UK users at the £10/month price and make a profitable business doing so, then undoubtedly someone will provide it - I guess we'll soon find out.

Thats not going to happen because Virgin have exclusive rights. We may get off with a community/nonprofit epg.

Alek


----------



## Cainam

CouchPotato said:


> PS Should have said, I'm now seriously looking at BT Vision given that I have BT Infinity Broadband. Can anyone point me at reviews?


I cannot point you at any reviews, but having had it for a couple of years I can give you my thoughts, if you want?

Cainam


----------



## spitfires

GIYF
x


----------



## jrg1

just out of interest I asked digiguide how much it would cost to provide EPG data for the 652 UK channels available.

£5K per month. plus VAT. which wouldn't include trying to make it fit into Tivo, of course.

john


----------



## TCM2007

alek said:


> The product didn't evolve. "We" never got past s1


Hard to read your words, but the product definitely did evolve. Maybe you came to TiVo late and didn't have the version 1 software on yours for the first year or so. The version on UK S1 boxes is 2.5.5 now, but it started on 1.5.3 IIRC.


----------



## Muttley1900

CouchPotato said:


> I'm now seriously looking at BT Vision given that I have BT Infinity Broadband. Can anyone point me at reviews?


Not reviews as such, but a sub forum on digital spy:- http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=168

and another forum AVForums - really need to use the search facility to be used here as too many categories etc just to go directly to stuff about bt vision (e.g. some is in pvrs and others is in freeview etc).

http://www.avforums.com/forums/

J.


----------



## djrowley

CouchPotato said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> 
> By my rough calculations I've paid TiVo Inc. on the order of £2,000 (disclaimer: I've had a few beers tonight so this could be wrong ) over the last eleven years. I think I've had amazing value for that money. I also think it probably doesn't come close to what it has cost TiVo Inc. to provide me with their product and service - an assertion I would argue is borne out by that fact that 2009 was TiVo Inc's first profitable year.


Just for the record, I bought my TiVo for £200 from Comet, and paid the £200 subscription. The man in Comet didn't know what it was, and I had to explain it to him before he would sell me one, even though they had one wired up to a TV and working in the shop.

I've fitted one new power supply, the network card, the CacheCard and Enternet connector. The only failures have been the original disk and the original power supply.

David


----------



## Jolltax

AENG said:


> It would be a real pleasure, just now and again, to log on to this forum and find just useful information instead of continuous "oh, yes I did", "oh no you didn't"-style sniping. Give it a rest, fellas! I'm sure you've got better things to do really.


So true, at times it all looks a bit childish to me, especially when it looks like our days are numbered.

:up:

Jolltax


----------



## CouchPotato

Cainam said:


> I cannot point you at any reviews, but having had it for a couple of years I can give you my thoughts, if you want?
> 
> Cainam


I'd be very interested - might be better in a PM or at least a separate thread though...


----------



## Ian_m

jrg1 said:


> just out of interest I asked digiguide how much it would cost to provide EPG data for the 652 UK channels available.
> 
> £5K per month. plus VAT. which wouldn't include trying to make it fit into Tivo, of course.
> 
> john


 A mate of mine involved in PVR development (yes still going on in UK, but not TiVo) says this is a bargain 5K per month.

14 day EPG, for re-distribution, costs a lot more than this, why do you think most Freeview/Sat EPG is only 7 days. He estimates about £10k per month at least to get 14-21 day EPG data, then you need all the computers, servers and staff costs and you are soon into £20-30K odd per month running costs.


----------



## JanSzafranski

I've sent my message too...

I am deeply unhappy after receiving a message on my UK tivo

On 1 June 2011, TiVo will be discontinuing the service for Series1 TiVo Recorders in the UK. Your current service will continue to be provided until that time at no charge. For further information, go to tivo.com/UKSeries1.

And the text at the link says The newest generation of TiVo PVR and service is now available from Virgin Media. Virgin Media is extending a special offer to current TiVo Series1 customers within a Virgin Media cabled area so that they can take advantage of the Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo. To take advantage of this offer, please go to www.virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade.

I am NOT in a Virgin Media cabled area, and have been told I will not be in the short nor long term, and therefore do not have the option to take advantage of the latest Tivo incarnation in the UK

So I am just being dropped without any alternative, after years of faithful service. I am deeply deeply upset by this as Tivo has been the centre of my TV viewing experience for over 10 years

Is there really no way to provide continuing guide data to the remaining UK subscribers as the only thing we need is guide data?

Yours very disappointedly

Jan Szafranski



PhilG said:


> I just sent this message to [email protected]
> 
> I'd like to ask everyone affected by this to do the same - send a polite, but disappointed, message to Tivo bemoaning what they have done to us
> 
> It'll probably not change anything, but you never know - if we don't complain nothing will happen for sure


----------



## JanSzafranski

I was told the same, and when i asked about the future they said they have no plans include people in my situation in the short nor long term. This sucks.



AMc said:


> My polite comment is also awaiting moderation.
> 
> When Virgin's sales guy rang me there were no offers available for those of us outside their TV service area - even though I'm a ADSL and phone customer.


----------



## PhilG

JanSzafranski said:


> Is there really no way to provide continuing guide data to the remaining UK subscribers as the only thing we need is guide data?


Take a peek at http://www.tivoland.com/forum/index.php?sid=f66d8b54e5f5d240e04f9d8d352b62de


----------



## Alcatraz

Ian_m said:


> A mate of mine involved in PVR development (yes still going on in UK, but not TiVo) says this is a bargain 5K per month.
> 
> 14 day EPG, for re-distribution, costs a lot more than this, why do you think most Freeview/Sat EPG is only 7 days. He estimates about £10k per month at least to get 14-21 day EPG data, then you need all the computers, servers and staff costs and you are soon into £20-30K odd per month running costs.


Don't forget to account for the exchange rate, currently £1 = about $1.6.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

alek said:


> I think it's safe to assume the service was making money. Even 1000 tivos at £10 per month would more than cover the cost of providing the epg.
> 
> Whether it was making enough money well thats a whole different question
> 
> Alek


Yes, *exactly* this.

It's not that they can't afford to run it, it's pure greed and contempt for their customers.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

PhilG said:


> Take a peek at http://www.tivoland.com/forum/index.php?sid=f66d8b54e5f5d240e04f9d8d352b62de


Link doesn't work, is there a permalink ?


----------



## Jo.Cassady

sad_tivo_man said:


> And your evidence to support this statement is ....?


They appear to be corporate shills, ignore them.

The costs to pay for all future EPG listings should have already been covered . TiVo are behaving outrageously. It's inexcusable.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

scoopuk said:


> Well you'll just have to hope won't you? Clearly none of us can rely on a continuing service from Tivo any more. Why would we trust them again?


Indeed, TiVo's reputation is in the toilet. Shame on them.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

alextegg said:


> Oh, the irony !


lol


----------



## Alcatraz

Jo.Cassady said:


> Yes, *exactly* this.
> 
> It's not that they can't afford to run it, it's pure greed and contempt for their customers.


That only comes out to about $6k (US dollars). The conversion rate alone could be the dealbreaker.

*Assuming *for a moment that the EPG costs are actually in line with the estimates in this thread, which seem to vary quite a bit, none of them factor in the additional cost associated with accounting and billing, whether handled by Sky or TiVo. If it was handled by Sky and has to transition to TiVo directly, or vice versa, there's additional overhead associated with a project like that to take into consideration.

I'm guessing it would take quite a few more subs to reach the "break even" mark, but I'm just guessing.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

mikerr said:


> Not just PVRs though - the entire userbase including non-PVR boxes will be running TiVo software eventually.
> That's a big score for TiVo.


Really? That's interesting. Please provide a citation, if poss.


----------



## cwaring

alextegg said:


> Oh, the irony !


What irony? It's perfectly 100% true. For example, Jo has yet to get any single fact right in her rants against Tivo. How is that helping her cause?


alek said:


> I think it's safe to assume the service was making money.


I'm pretty sure that Tivo have been making a loss for years. There's another post around here to that effect.


Jo.Cassady said:


> Really? That's interesting. Please provide a citation, if poss.


No point me doing so but it is 100% fact.


----------



## alextegg

Taxi for Mr Waring!


----------



## steveroe

Jo.Cassady said:


> Really? That's interesting. Please provide a citation, if poss.





> From a Tivo SEC filing, some language on the Virgin deal: The monthly fees, which commence upon delivery, are guaranteed and increase over time. The agreement has a multi-year term with additional limited renewal rights granted to Virgin. *The agreement creates a mutually exclusive distribution arrangement under which TiVo will develop software for DVR set top box platforms and non-DVR set top boxes that will be deployed in the future by Virgin in the United Kingdom*. Virgin Media will promote the product and will have exclusive rights to use the TiVo brand and technology in the United Kingdom. As part of the agreement, Virgin Media and TiVo have entered into a mutual covenant not to assert with regards to each partys intellectual property.


Citation


----------



## TCM2007

There are more direct quotes in the trades about VM wanting to make all boxes TiVos, and even retrofit some.


----------



## cwaring

alextegg said:


> Taxi for Mr Waring!


----------



## unitron

steveroe said:


> Citation


"...Virgin Media will promote the product and will have exclusive rights to use the TiVo brand and technology in the United Kingdom...."

So if they have a TiVo monopoly in the UK don't they take on TiVo's obligations? Even if not, couldn't they, as a goodwill and positive PR gesture, continue the listing service for the lifetimers and the (revenue source) TAMs, both in and outside of their coverage area (which I'm sure they'd like to expand when it's economically feasible)? They're going to have to provide listings for their customers, so you can't exactly say that the service has been discontinued in the UK.

If you're a lifetimer inside their coverage area, which would make you more Virgin Media friendly, having them tell you "We're boat-anchoring your S1, but we'd love to have you pay us monthly for our shiny new Tivo machine and the same listings service", or having them say "Your existing TiVo service will continue uninterrupted and wouldn't you like to add our shiny new TiVo machine as well?"


----------



## GWR71

unitron said:


> Even if not, couldn't they, as a goodwill and positive PR gesture


So you don't consider that maintaining the service for 8 years - far, far longer than any of us expected at the time (back in 2003, new lifetimers were just hoping that the service would last the 20 months that would see them breaking even with respect to TAMs) - was a fairly enormous "goodwill and positive PR gesture"?



> If you're a lifetimer inside their coverage area, which would make you more Virgin Media friendly


But you're still talking about tiny numbers of people here. There are supposedly already about 15,000 more people signed up to take the VM TiVo than there were S1 boxes sold, and that amount will only increase.

Even if every lifetimer in a VM area was so incensed by the ending of the S1 service that they refused to take the VM TiVo, it's a non-issue. There just aren't enough of them to make any significant difference to VM one way or the other.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

How do TiVo execs sleep at night?

On a big pile of money.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

steveroe said:


> Citation


Wait, so virgin and tivO might produce a freeview bOx, for people outside a virgin cable area?


----------



## cwaring

No. They never said that.


----------



## GWR71

Jo.Cassady said:


> Wait, so virgin and tivO might produce a freeview bOx, for people outside a virgin cable area?


Not a hope. Quite apart from the fact that Virgin isn't interested in the Freeview market generally, why do you think no Freeview box manufacturer has tied up with TiVo since 2003?

There's simply no viable market for a TiVo-powered Freeview or Freesat box. It would inevitably be more expensive than non-TiVo boxes, and you've got the unavoidable ongoing cost of subscription for the EPG data. The number of Freeview/Freesat owners willing to pay that premium would be too small to make it worth anyone's while.


----------



## daveh

GWR71 said:


> Not a hope. Quite apart from the fact that Virgin isn't interested in the Freeview market generally, why do you think no Freeview box manufacturer has tied up with TiVo since 2003?
> 
> There's simply no viable market for a TiVo-powered Freeview or Freesat box. It would inevitably be more expensive than non-TiVo boxes, and you've got the unavoidable ongoing cost of subscription for the EPG data. The number of Freeview/Freesat owners willing to pay that premium would be too small to make it worth anyone's while.


But every Freeview box already provides an EPG which the box provider must source from somewhere. So why couldn't they source it from Tivo and pay for it with adverts in the displayed EPG?


----------



## Jo.Cassady

You know the whole brewhaha with Mr GeoHot and the PS3 firmware? I wish someone clever would write software that would allow us to have TiVo, so we'd *just* need to acquire hardware.






Once we have the hardware, we can use the modified TiVo software + a third party (community driven) EPG service.

The only downside of this would be that TiVo would be deprived of future revenue, but to be honest, I couldn't care less


----------



## steveroe

Jo.Cassady said:


> I wish someone clever would write software that would allow us to have TiVo, so we'd *just* need to acquire hardware.


A replacement EPG is being worked on, that should work with the existing Tivo software and hardware


----------



## baward

GWR71 said:


> But you're still talking about tiny numbers of people here. There are supposedly already about 15,000 more people signed up to take the VM TiVo than there were S1 boxes sold, and that amount will only increase.


Yes, and the VM-Tivo TV/press marketing machine hasn't even swung into action yet. Even more reason to avoid advertisements as far as I'm concerned


----------



## Jo.Cassady

steveroe said:


> A replacement EPG is being worked on, that should work with the existing Tivo software and hardware


Great. I also mean for Series 2 and Series 3.


----------



## cwaring

Someone want to tell her that...

1 We don't have those over here

and 

2. They're not pulling the plug on any US models


----------



## unitron

cwaring said:


> ...2. They're not pulling the plug on any US models...


Yet.

That we know about.


----------



## alextegg

cwaring said:


>


It will come to you eventually.


----------



## cwaring

You assume I'm giving it any more thought. Nothing could be further from the truth. Oh, apart from Jo's ramblings, of course


----------



## Pete77

Jo.Cassady said:


> Great. I also mean for Series 2 and Series 3.


I would certainly be very interested in getting an S3 with HD working if we are going to go to all this trouble.


----------



## Pete77

cwaring said:


> 1 We don't have those over here


The last time I checked DHL and UPS were still shipping goods second hand goods sold on US ebay to the UK.

Now that we have to roll our own data the only impediment to using other Tivo models will be their hackability to work with a UK EPG. I believe in Australia the UK or US Series one models were considered equally suitable hardware for their home rolled data service.

The big issue is can the S2 or S3 units be hacked to work with our own UK EPG? If anyone can do it then I know that mikerr definitely can.


----------



## steveroe

Pete77 said:


> Now that we have to roll our own data the only impediment to using other Tivo models will be their hackability to work with a UK EPG.


Yes Pete, that would be the only impediment. Do let us know how you get on.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

Pete77 said:


> The last time I checked DHL and UPS were still shipping goods second hand goods sold on US ebay to the UK.
> 
> Now that we have to roll our own data the only impediment to using other Tivo models will be their hackability to work with a UK EPG. I believe in Australia the UK or US Series one models were considered equally suitable hardware for their home rolled data service.
> 
> The big issue is can the S2 or S3 units be hacked to work with our own UK EPG? If anyone can do it then I know that mikerr definitely can.


Clever nerds love a challenge, I'm sure there are capable people who could step up to the plate. I would award them 1000 internets, if they could manage it.

*Let's do it!*

How about we do a Kickstarter project? If TiVo legal notice, then good, they will have an idea how some of us now feel about them.


----------



## spitfires

Jo.Cassady said:


> Clever nerds love a challenge


Oh yes insult us, that'll get the job done. Not.

.


----------



## VirginMediaPhil

Jo.Cassady said:


> Clever nerds love a challenge


Yes and I'm sure they'll love you even more for insulting them.


----------



## Jo.Cassady

Oh, to me, nerd & geek = cool. 

Where would we be without science and technology?


----------



## Jo.Cassady

Isn't she beautiful? I would have such a nerdgasm if we could have an unofficial epg, it would be epic.

I would donate to this in a heartbeat

Didnt the Aussies manage it? Maybe, if we buy them some Fosters, theyll let us know the secret sauce.


----------



## alextegg

No they wouldn't, they export it all over here for the UK lager louts to drink, the aussies know it tastes like sh1t so they don't drink it


----------



## Trinitron

tivofromdayone said:


> I hope this has at least piqued some interest.


Clearly not.

"Alight with outrage"? Really? I can just visualise the Gadget Show report:

'Tens of people are outraged at TiVo's decision. Meanwhile, 50,000 have pre-registered their interest in the replacement Virgin Media TiVo service.'


----------



## dot2dot

steveroe said:


> Yes Pete, that would be the only impediment. Do let us know how you get on.


yes .. Pete - let us know how you get on - or if you need any help.
Are we going to all need network cards ? for starters ?

I'm all for keeping tivo in business but I have to draw a line (of an unhappy figure) when it comes to this .. unique situation...

and yeah we all know tivo is unique - so encouraging the demise of it isn't going to help.
encouraging it to live on on the other hand.. yeah i'm up for that.

cw ? live the dream  you've had a bit of a hard time of it of late... 
.. look at it from our angle... we'd pay if we were asked....

..cheers


----------



## cwaring

Trinitron said:


> "Alight with outrage"? Really? I can just visualise the Gadget Show report:
> 
> 'Tens of people are outraged at TiVo's decision. Meanwhile, 50,000 have pre-registered their interest in the replacement Virgin Media TiVo service.'


This has been my opinion and POV since the start


----------



## PhilG

cwaring said:


> This has been my opinion and POV since the start


I'm not sure we're outraged at the decision - personally I am more disappointed by the way the decision has been handled

If you can upgrade to the new box - swell

If you can't, then there's not even a whiff of an apology or commiseration - in fact not any communication at all

It's not nice to "not matter" 

And it wouldn't have taken much to at least acknowledge that some of us will be cut adrift


----------



## Trinitron

dot2dot said:


> yes .. Pete - let us know how you get on - or if you need any help.
> Are we going to all need network cards ? for starters ?


Not to mention the NTSC-compatible systems. (oops, I mentioned them)


----------



## TCM2007

Aus is PAL.


----------



## johnscott99

I think I paid £300 for my TiVo from Comet. 
I then paid £200 straight away for the EPG service.

I bought 2x 120gb HDD and modded it when new - but I'm not counting that into my costs.

Now ~9 years later I think I've had my £500 worth. When Sky+ came about I smiled at people saying "I don't pay any more for my TiVo" (Smug). It comes to about £1.85 a month for 9 years.

I'm sad that TiVo aren't continuing their service. I'm disappointed that VM don't just continued the dial-up EPG. It wouldn't cost them much to keep people happy (but wouldn't encourage people to change to VM hardware).

I got the message from TiVo on Friday saying that all emails should go to [email protected]. I'm guessing they are trying to gauge who has a TiVo S1 as they are asking for your service number.

I am going to repeat my original email regarding lifetime support.

I don't expect any change, but it's worth a try - for the cost of an email.

For information: I bought a Humax HDR-T2 500GB last week. It arrived on Friday and it's rather good. £250 +£6 P&P. HiDef TV (if you live in a Freeview HD area), 300Hours hi quality recording, iPlayer, Media centre, series links, suggestions. Not TiVo, but we'll get used to it.


----------



## steveroe

johnscott99 said:


> I'm guessing they are trying to gauge who has a TiVo S1 as they are asking for your service number.


They know exactly how many UK S1s are active as that information can be collected when Tivo connects for its EPG data.


----------



## spitfires

TCM2007 said:


> Aus is PAL.


Although they are PAL B rather than PAL I - don't know if that makes any practical difference or not.

Edit: actually, yes it might - I remember sending a VCR out to my uncle many years ago but it wasn't compatible with the Oz system.


----------



## baward

Trinitron said:


> Clearly not.
> 
> "Alight with outrage"? Really? I can just visualise the Gadget Show report:
> 
> 'Tens of people are outraged at TiVo's decision. Meanwhile, 50,000 have pre-registered their interest in the replacement Virgin Media TiVo service.'


Hear, hear. I am sure this is a correct assumption.


----------



## Trinitron

TCM2007 said:


> Aus is PAL.


I know, but Pete77 appears to be talking about adapting US S2 and S3 units, which clearly are not!


----------



## PhilG

johnscott99 said:


> I got the message from TiVo on Friday saying that all emails should go to [email protected]. I'm guessing they are trying to gauge who has a TiVo S1 as they are asking for your service number.
> 
> I am going to repeat my original email regarding lifetime support.


Good Luck

I think that eMail address is another black hole to nowhere


----------



## cwaring

johnscott99 said:


> I'm disappointed that VM don't just continued the dial-up EPG.


I was not aware that VM had control over the S1s. Some people are just _assuming_ it's a VM decision. I have yet to see any proof of this.


----------



## ColinYounger

VM don't have control over *their own* TiVos - they are just the service provider. All software and EPG is supplied by TiVo. Part of the reason for the long installation time is that a new VM box has to download the TiVo software from TiVo themselves. VM aren't even allowed to hold copies of the software!


----------



## GWR71

daveh said:


> But every Freeview box already provides an EPG which the box provider must source from somewhere. So why couldn't they source it from Tivo and pay for it with adverts in the displayed EPG?


If it was that simple, why do you think none of them have tried it since 2003?

There are numerous technical issues that would have to be addressed. The only way it would ever be possible would be if the Freeview consortium mandated that all Freeview boxes *had* to run TiVo software, and then sold the advertising centrally. And that's not going to happen.


----------



## TCM2007

There are ad funded EPGs on some Freeview boxes. PoS mind you.


----------



## cwaring

TCM2007 said:


> PoS mind you.


I'm guessing that's not "Point Of Sale", right?


----------



## tivofromdayone

As the days count down we are finally preparing to say goodbye to Tivo. I am one of those people who will cut their nose off to spite their face and am happy to say I see the discontinuation of series one as a sufficient stab in the back to justify avoiding tivo in the future. If we didnt already have sky and were in the market for a digital provider, I would be the one that refused to go VM on principle. It may not be VM causing the cull, but the timing sucks big time. After 10 years it just happens to get killed in the same period VM roll out their new boxes. If they had done a freeview box to replace the S1 I would have been their in the queue, but the whole, 'sod off old version losers, virgin have it now' mentality has ticked me off. I dont know how many of us are actually left in the UK, but the fact we are here at all goes to show how much we liked the box.

We already have a philips twin tuner freeview box installed in one of the Tivo houses of the family. Getting the pensioner parents used to how the new box works. It isnt as friendly as tivo was, nor is it even close to how good tivo was. But it has dual channel recording. It is HD for the freeview HD channels, it even upscales to HD like image for SD channels. Pause live TV (remember the days when tivo were bragging about that with the snowy skier scene back in the day). Options to ad skip from 1 minute to 5 minutes (if memory serves), jump back 15 second increments. Series links are there as well. It is like a lobotomised tivo admittedly, but it is there and working. Once the update was run it got better. Even has an option to make the box schedule record an item as it is shown as an ad on tv (not used it yet, but apparently if an ad is up showing goldeneye for example, you can press a button and it adds goldeneye to the scheduled recordings).

Put simply, Tivo is being phased out by us before the cutoff date. Like seeing an old friend die, I would rather not be around when it happens. By the end of the week, philips will have had nearly a grand off us for the 4 boxes. Tivo will be lofted shortly after fitting the new stuff. At least we now have some HD content, and not a penny to tivo or VM in the process


----------



## LaupSavea

I would agree with the above. I have already sourced an alternative that isnt VM and, as you say, I will be soon packing the TIVO away for a while before one day just dropping it in the local skip.


----------



## TCM2007

You know about the UK EPG project?


----------



## Jo.Cassady

tivofromdayone said:


> As the days count down we are finally preparing to say goodbye to Tivo. I am one of those people who will cut their nose off to spite their face and am happy to say I see the discontinuation of series one as a sufficient stab in the back to justify avoiding tivo in the future. If we didnt already have sky and were in the market for a digital provider, I would be the one that refused to go VM on principle. It may not be VM causing the cull, but the timing sucks big time. After 10 years it just happens to get killed in the same period VM roll out their new boxes. If they had done a freeview box to replace the S1 I would have been their in the queue, but the whole, 'sod off old version losers, virgin have it now' mentality has ticked me off. I dont know how many of us are actually left in the UK, but the fact we are here at all goes to show how much we liked the box.
> 
> We already have a philips twin tuner freeview box installed in one of the Tivo houses of the family. Getting the pensioner parents used to how the new box works. It isnt as friendly as tivo was, nor is it even close to how good tivo was. But it has dual channel recording. It is HD for the freeview HD channels, it even upscales to HD like image for SD channels. Pause live TV (remember the days when tivo were bragging about that with the snowy skier scene back in the day). Options to ad skip from 1 minute to 5 minutes (if memory serves), jump back 15 second increments. Series links are there as well. It is like a lobotomised tivo admittedly, but it is there and working. Once the update was run it got better. Even has an option to make the box schedule record an item as it is shown as an ad on tv (not used it yet, but apparently if an ad is up showing goldeneye for example, you can press a button and it adds goldeneye to the scheduled recordings).
> 
> Put simply, Tivo is being phased out by us before the cutoff date. Like seeing an old friend die, I would rather not be around when it happens. By the end of the week, philips will have had nearly a grand off us for the 4 boxes. Tivo will be lofted shortly after fitting the new stuff. At least we now have some HD content, and not a penny to tivo or VM in the process


Very glad to hear it.

On principle, TiVo will never get another penny out of me.


----------



## tivofromdayone

TCM2007 said:


> You know about the UK EPG project?


been watching people talk about such things, but seriously doubt it will matter much by the end of the week for me or the family members replacing tivo. I wont chuck tivo in a skip for some time. Daft as it may seem I wouldnt enjoy ripping the (very large only fitted last year) hard drive and useless cachecard/memory out of an old friend. most likely it will sit in the loft for a while at least. But with hi def recording and the upscaling abilities of the philips unit thats replacing it, it would probably be too little too late for me even if there was a new guide.

Effectively, tivo has returned to the UK after a near 10 year departure, only to be restricted to VM as their only avenue. Cutting off those of us that used to sing its praises has alienated some (I cant be alone in wishing tivo gets the fleas of a thousand camels infest their viewing seats), while those using the VM box are not necessarily all great lovers of it. One of the girls at work hates it (though her husband and son love it). She was one of the first in UK to get the VM box as someone in the family works for VM and got to have it early doors.

The philips in many ways is a step backwards in the EPG side of things. Doesnt even have a search option. But it does series links (also does series links and recomendations I found out tonight which may well redeem itself in time). Picture quality is far superior, Menu is a much higher resolution, the 'pause live tv' buffer is 3 hours and with Around 150 hours HD recording and double that in SD it will more than cope with her television stuff.

As things like lovefilm get a better grip on technology and faster broadband, the 'on demand' tv aspect will likely gaina better and more reliable foothold, the result would be that the whole PVR thing could change considerably in the future, there may not even be a need for it apart from soaps and braindrain television..

The fact that Tivo is tied into the VM brand is perhaps not the best thing in terms of getting back into the UK for Tivo as it limits their appeal. Without something outside the VM arena, it is just another cable box, albeit with a potentially good EPG. I havent seen the VM/tivo in use and dont expect to do so. As a n aggrieved lost cause user, I feel Tivo can go F&%K themselves with a rusty fencepole.

Philips is far from perfect, but in terms of being a television recorder? it passes with flying colours. I will miss so much of the tivo, the bings and bongs, the ease of use, the automatic stuff, the search. But when all is said and done, tivo and the yanks have finally decided to cut series one off and so its time to close the doors on tivo and go elsewhere. We have sky in conjuction with Tivo (tivo took care of the freeview the freeview stuff). The philips will slot in nicely where the tivo and freeview box once went and leave room to put the PS3 in a better position for us too with the space saved. Whatever losses we suffer with the EPG we gain in space and quality of recordings (and get HD as well). So all in all, not too bad a trade off.

If nothing else, we had a good run, and the hardware was brilliant in the old S1. I doubt much is made these days to the same build quality of that old thomson unit. Had Tivo shafted us 2 years ago and not now I would have likely been even more angry as the freeview recorders back then were dire. Today there are a good few choices, none are as good to use, or as efficient with their EPGs, but they are at least viable now. Hopefully they will get better and the boxes improve upon their EPGs. some are already learning that not everyone wants to be on sky and cable and are slowly upping their game.

I dont want to pay sky for HD (especially as they dont do 1080p broadcasts), so we will stay with the pace Sky+ and will slot a philips into the mix this week.

For those of you who still try to keep flying the flag, I wish you all the best with the UK 3rd party attempts. I doubt I will still have a working tivo when that time comes though, even worse, the move to the philips and its considerably higher res recordings may already be enough for me to never come back even if you guys find a way to keep S1 alive and kicking.


----------



## Pete77

tivofromdayone said:


> For those of you who still try to keep flying the flag, I wish you all the best with the UK 3rd party attempts. I doubt I will still have a working tivo when that time comes though, even worse, the move to the philips and its considerably higher res recordings may already be enough for me to never come back even if you guys find a way to keep S1 alive and kicking.


Plenty on here have made such claims before when they were excited about their shiny new non Tivo device only to come rushing back to Tivo after they got sick and tired of new series etc being missed by their non Tivo device.

I take it that these Philips boxes don't have Wishlists? Because a channel specific title Wishlist would be the only way to compensate for Series Links that don't carry on from one Series to the next.

I am as angry with Tivo about dumping those of us not in Virgin Media land as you are but I still intend to try and use the replacement EPG service that I am sure Mike and Dave and co will get working and I will only consider moving to another device if the replacement EPG does not live up to expectations.


----------



## alek

Pete77 said:


> I will only consider moving to another device if the replacement EPG does not live up to expectations.


Same her but I am hedging my bets with mythtv just in case.

Alek


----------



## Pete77

alek said:


> Same here but I am hedging my bets with mythtv just in case.


Digital switchover in my area is not till mid or late next year so I'm inclined to carry on with Tivo till at least then if I can before examining whether I do or don't have an acceptable level of Freeview HD signal (I'm in a borderline area where I may only get some of the Muxes to an acceptable standard after switchover and current pre switchover Freeview reception is very erratic) and what Freeview HD boxes exist versus the alternative of a Windows MCE setup. BBC/ITV Freesat is not on the agenda due to its failure to support channels like Fiver, Five USA and Sky News.

Also I may be moving within the next year and I suppose its just possible that could be to a Virgin cabled area although looking at the kind of homes I find attractive I rather doubt that is likely.


----------



## TCM2007

But HD's a cynical marketing con, Pete, remember?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> But HD's a cynical marketing con, Pete, remember?


Only when you have to pay a huge early adopter premium for it and not when it becomes affordable and part of the mainstream on the FTA channels including Formula 1................


----------



## tivofromdayone

Pete77 said:


> Plenty on here have made such claims before when they were excited about their shiny new non Tivo device only to come rushing back to Tivo after they got sick and tired of new series etc being missed by their non Tivo device.
> 
> I take it that these Philips boxes don't have Wishlists? Because a channel specific title Wishlist would be the only way to compensate for Series Links that don't carry on from one Series to the next.


Thats kind of the point. Glossing over the fact that there 'may' be an alternative EPG later.
As things stand, there isn't. So the option to leave and 'come back to Tivo later' Isnt an 'actual' option at the moment.

I personally am not excited by the new PVR that is replacing Tivo. Sorry if my text implied I was. I didnt expect much at all from the menu system/EPG. As such the stuff mentioned was a bonus. I entered into the new box idea with one set of things in mind:- record freeview. Get freeview HD (not bought into HD until now apart from bluray films on PS3), record HD, have series link (if possible).

The Philips does all those things. It has no wishlists, no search, no bells and whistles. I will miss all those things massively and their loss and the way the box works will not only change how I watch television, but will also create the need to going back to finding things I want to watch and setting up a recording (in the case of Philips, find it on epg and press record). Not ideal, but at least it is there and working, unlike tivo S1 very soon.

If there was a Freeview Tivo box out there then the decision to go Philips (or any other) would be a non starter as Tivo obviously wins hands down. But there isnt a Tivo freeview unit, the only way forward with tivo is to junk sky (not necessarily a bad thing) and go to virgin, but thats limited further by the fact you may not be able to actually get (or want) the VM package in your area. So its all over in that respect. There is a small area of hope for you guys in the alternate EPG for Tivo, but I have already decided to retire my old friend before Tivo inc actually lobotomise it.

Tivo shot themselves in the foot with me. The time for me to adapt to it no longer being an option has arrived. I miss it already and havent even turned it off yet.

Tivo have effectively done to series one users, what a drunk kid did to my very well specced car. I lost dual climate, mp3 playback, bluetooth link and a very low mileage model to one persons lack of consideration. I couldnt find anything as good in my price range at the time and bought something that had less options. But guess what, I got used to it. New car is newer, faster, only has climate control and a six disc changer, no bluetooth, no MP3, but definitely more elsewhere.

In my head, Tivo are no better than the drunk driver.


----------



## Trinitron

Pete77 said:


> Plenty on here have made such claims before when they were excited about their shiny new non Tivo device only to come rushing back to Tivo after they got sick and tired of new series etc being missed by their non Tivo device.
> 
> I take it that these Philips boxes don't have Wishlists? Because a channel specific title Wishlist would be the only way to compensate for Series Links that don't carry on from one Series to the next.


Few problems here with the Sky "Never Miss" service. Add the programme to my 'wishlist' through my online Sky account and they send an email around a week before the programme/series is on. I then click 'remote record' and it sends the link to my Sky+HD box. Not quite as efficient as TiVo but it works.

Anytime+ is also proving useful for those odd occasions when something is on that I have missed. It's also good for watching first run stuff without adverts or DOGs, in HD.

Having got used to Sky+HD now I'm less bothered about losing the TiVo service - with more and more HD content around then I am recording it on the Sky box anyway. Despite the claims of some here, for me picture quality is much more important than a scheduling service. I really struggle to see how people can be content nowadays with Mode 1 SD output from an unmodded TiVo as their main viewing experience!


----------



## LarryDavid

> In my head, Tivo are no better than the drunk driver.


Please tell me some of those dents are from mashing his face into the side of your car afterwards


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Only when you have to pay a huge early adopter premium for it and not when it becomes affordable and part of the mainstream on the FTA channels including Formula 1................


Always found it quite amusing that the most high tech (early adopter if you will) and cynically financially driven sport there is should be your favourite!


----------



## mikerr

TCM2007 said:


> But HD's a cynical marketing con, Pete, remember?





Pete77 said:


> Only when you have to pay a huge early adopter premium for it and not when it becomes affordable and part of the mainstream on the FTA channels including Formula 1................


Lol - huge u turn there then, Pete !


----------



## unitron

tivofromdayone said:


> been watching people talk about such things, but seriously doubt it will matter much by the end of the week for me or the family members replacing tivo. I wont chuck tivo in a skip for some time. Daft as it may seem I wouldnt enjoy ripping the (very large only fitted last year) hard drive and useless cachecard/memory out of an old friend. most likely it will sit in the loft for a while at least. But with hi def recording and the upscaling abilities of the philips unit thats replacing it, it would probably be too little too late for me even if there was a new guide.
> 
> Effectively, tivo has returned to the UK after a near 10 year departure, only to be restricted to VM as their only avenue. Cutting off those of us that used to sing its praises has alienated some (I cant be alone in wishing tivo gets the fleas of a thousand camels infest their viewing seats), while those using the VM box are not necessarily all great lovers of it. One of the girls at work hates it (though her husband and son love it). She was one of the first in UK to get the VM box as someone in the family works for VM and got to have it early doors.
> 
> The philips in many ways is a step backwards in the EPG side of things. Doesnt even have a search option. But it does series links (also does series links and recomendations I found out tonight which may well redeem itself in time). Picture quality is far superior, Menu is a much higher resolution, the 'pause live tv' buffer is 3 hours and with Around 150 hours HD recording and double that in SD it will more than cope with her television stuff.
> 
> As things like lovefilm get a better grip on technology and faster broadband, the 'on demand' tv aspect will likely gaina better and more reliable foothold, the result would be that the whole PVR thing could change considerably in the future, there may not even be a need for it apart from soaps and braindrain television..
> 
> The fact that Tivo is tied into the VM brand is perhaps not the best thing in terms of getting back into the UK for Tivo as it limits their appeal. Without something outside the VM arena, it is just another cable box, albeit with a potentially good EPG. I havent seen the VM/tivo in use and dont expect to do so. As a n aggrieved lost cause user, I feel Tivo can go F&%K themselves with a rusty fencepole.
> 
> Philips is far from perfect, but in terms of being a television recorder? it passes with flying colours. I will miss so much of the tivo, the bings and bongs, the ease of use, the automatic stuff, the search. But when all is said and done, tivo and the yanks have finally decided to cut series one off and so its time to close the doors on tivo and go elsewhere. We have sky in conjuction with Tivo (tivo took care of the freeview the freeview stuff). The philips will slot in nicely where the tivo and freeview box once went and leave room to put the PS3 in a better position for us too with the space saved. Whatever losses we suffer with the EPG we gain in space and quality of recordings (and get HD as well). So all in all, not too bad a trade off.
> 
> If nothing else, we had a good run, and the hardware was brilliant in the old S1. I doubt much is made these days to the same build quality of that old thomson unit. Had Tivo shafted us 2 years ago and not now I would have likely been even more angry as the freeview recorders back then were dire. Today there are a good few choices, none are as good to use, or as efficient with their EPGs, but they are at least viable now. Hopefully they will get better and the boxes improve upon their EPGs. some are already learning that not everyone wants to be on sky and cable and are slowly upping their game.
> 
> I dont want to pay sky for HD (especially as they dont do 1080p broadcasts), so we will stay with the pace Sky+ and will slot a philips into the mix this week.
> 
> For those of you who still try to keep flying the flag, I wish you all the best with the UK 3rd party attempts. I doubt I will still have a working tivo when that time comes though, even worse, the move to the philips and its considerably higher res recordings may already be enough for me to never come back even if you guys find a way to keep S1 alive and kicking.


Wanna sell me that cachecard?


----------



## johnscott99

Did everyone get the "insult to injury" message from TiVo. They seem to be marketing THE BIG SWITCH OFF as an opportunity. 

"It's coming. Are you ready?" - er. No and I can't be ready. 

It's like the hangman giving you a smile and a handshake.


----------



## djqster

johnscott99 said:


> It's like the hangman giving you a smile and a handshake.


It used to be common practice to tip your hangman so he made sure you went quick...


----------



## cyril

Does anyone know if stopping the s1 uk guide data was a condition of the VM TiVo deal and if that was insisted by VM?

Without this knowledge it would be a bit unfair to blame TiVo, as millions of potential new UK TiVo subscribers has to be a better proposition than supporting just 35k.


----------



## healeydave

I finally got my 20 mins with the voice of TiVo Inc. on Monday. The tone was decidibly different to how it was a few years ago. I felt like the outsider now they have a new best friend. Previously, I was privy to conversation that I had to keep to myself so as not to endanger the trust (which I always did) but now, I got a lot of "I can't really go into detail" like I was suddenly untrustworthy!

Whilst I can understand it to a degree, it Kinda narked me off all the same.

Anyway I don't have anything to add that you don't already know, just confirmation that the exclusive deal with Virgin means there is absolutely no chance of any TiVo official developments in the future unless it's through VM. TiVo cited their decision to abandon the original service was partly due to other forces, not necessarily VM but that involved a lot of the 'can't divulge' statements, so make of that what you will 

My gut feeling is getting a decent PVR to contend with sky was just as important to VM as it was to TiVo, so the 'exclusivity' is not only a mistake on TiVo's part but could have easily been avoided in my opinion.
Did the tech industry learn nothing from the Apple / AT&T 5 year exclusivity deal that crippled Americans from using other carriers for the iPhone? So much has been made about that in the press, I sometimes think TiVo Inc. lives in a bubble.

Anyway, i leave you with an interesting snippet I saw when i was catching up with tech news tonight, it read *'Last year TiVo lost $84.5 million and also ran up a deficit of $779.2 million, so the company is trying everything they can to stay afloat'.*

Lets hope those peeps fortunate to be in cabled area, basking in their new hardware don't find themselves in the near future needing the 'Alternative EPG Project' themselves


----------



## spitfires

Interesting - thanks Dave.

I know that 'exclusivity' and 'management control' were the two main reasons that Virgin went with T-Mobile rather than O2 for their mobile phone outsourcing deal. So it seems highly likely they would want the same with TiVo. And with financials like that, one can see why TiVo would agree to _anything_ if it meant a high-profile revenue-generating long-term deal. I know _I_ would 

Their frosty attitude to you suggests that _un_official developments wouldn't be possible either... pity.

.


----------



## cwaring

cyril said:


> Does anyone know if stopping the s1 uk guide data was a condition of the VM TiVo deal and if that was insisted by VM?


No. 


> Without this knowledge it would be a bit unfair to blame TiVo...


Or VM of course. You would think so, wouldn't you. When has the truth and a lack of knowledge stopped some people though


----------



## orangeboy

cwaring said:


> cyril said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if stopping the s1 uk guide data was a condition of the VM TiVo deal and if that was insisted by VM?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
Click to expand...

I would think the inclusion of the term "exclusive" in the Virgin Media Selects TiVo For Next Generation TV Platform Press Release would indicate otherwise:


> Under the mutually exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a converged television and broadband interactive interface to power Virgin Media's next generation, high definition set top boxes. The terms of the deal are not disclosed. TiVo will become the exclusive provider of middleware and user interface software for Virgin Media's next generation set top boxes. *Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom.*


I read that as Virgin Media will use no other software other than TiVo, and TiVo will not distribute their Service to anyone but Virgin Media.


----------



## healeydave

spitfires said:


> Interesting - thanks Dave.
> 
> Their frosty attitude to you suggests that _un_official developments wouldn't be possible either... pity.


Even 'frosty' is probably a bit stronger than I would describe it, more like the new best friend gets the free-flowing conversation, the now old acquaintance gets the polite but guarded conversation 

I still value the contact so I won't go into the gory details, but there were possibilities on the table that are now off ;-)


----------



## LarryDavid

Nice one Dave, thanks for sharing.

The jig is pretty much up for the service, but it was worth trying to save it. 

Second hand SKY+ is on the way for me as a stop gap, until Murdoch gets all of BSkyB when it will get cancelled. After that it will probably be a foxsat or whatever is a good model at the time.

I do intend to keep the TiVo for the alternate EPG to use with the 'normal' sky box as a freesat box, as long as modem access will be possible. If its not, or if I decide not to bother, I'll donate it to the EPG project if they still need it.

Once again, thanks.


----------



## spitfires

healeydave said:


> there were possibilities on the table that are now off ;-)


;-) pity - that would've made things a lot easier. Oh well back to the alternative then...

.


----------



## Trinitron

healeydave said:


> Lets hope those peeps fortunate to be in cabled area, basking in their new hardware don't find themselves in the near future needing the 'Alternative EPG Project' themselves


But if they do, then you have something to sell to Virgin 

From what I read about the deal, it's to put TiVo software in VM boxes made by Cisco. Virgin appear to have a separate deal with Tribune for the EPG data, so even if TiVo go bust Virgin will still have the hardware and an EPG feed.


----------



## cwaring

orangeboy said:


> I read that as Virgin Media will use no other software other than TiVo, and TiVo will not distribute their Service to anyone but Virgin Media.


Alternatively, and just as likely, it means that Tivo cannot go with Sky or Freeview or Freesat and make another _new_ Tivo box and actually has nothing to do with existing data on older boxes.


----------



## orangeboy

cwaring said:


> Alternatively, and just as likely, it means that Tivo cannot go with Sky or Freeview or Freesat and make another _new_ Tivo box and actually has nothing to do with existing data on older boxes.


That's a salient point, since there's no mention of prior or existing agreements with other entities in the press release.


----------



## nilling

Bye bye TiVo and good riddance Sky. Hello Humax and Freeview HD.


----------



## tivofromdayone

nilling said:


> Bye bye TiVo and good riddance Sky. Hello Humax and Freeview HD.


ironically enough, I came in here to update on where we were. The philips proved a bit iffy and has now gone back. We now have the Humax Fox HDRT2.

proving to be a nice unit in use. Has a search option for programmes by name and genre (but needs latest firmware to have the search work due to a change of the way schedules are now broadcast in a compressed format that original firmware machines cannot decode, update fixes it though). Uses the recommendation facility of programmes you record so all in all, still a partially lobotomised Tivo, but it works, and we have HD. I did a review of both units but time is aginst me now so cannot upload til tonight. If anyone wants an honest review of both the Philips and the Humax, they will be linked tomorrow.

One thing though, the remotes are both poo when compared to tivo remote


----------



## tivofromdayone

Finally got around to uploading the page. The first 3rd of the page is slagging off Tivo inc for being , well, Tivo really. The rest is dedicated to the pros and cons of the 2 PVR units we were playing with. I know you can find reviews elsewhere, but they are largely truncated and fail to go into much detail. As there will be people here considering where to go next the info may well prove useful.
It still needs abit more tweaking as I havent setup the network side of things for the Humax, and the info about schedule data on searches needed to say that not all transmitters may be causing the issues with old firmware yet as the system of new scheduling on freeview is a gradual rollout. But there is still a lot of hands on info there

The 2 boxes are the Philips 8520 (which for an ex Tivo user is likely not the best choice) 
and the Humax HDR FoxT2

Hope the link gives someone a bit of useful info at least

http://www.diablo944.co.uk/pvr.htm

Solely for reference, the last of the family Tivos was switched off and removed from use today. Parents gave away the freeview box that Tivo used to link to within hours of the disconnect. We will all miss our old friends. Never trust the yanks eh?

The family have outlaid over a grand in less than 2 weeks to keep our recording facilities live. If it wasn't for getting HD we would all be a lot more irritated than we are. Not a cent to Tivo or Virgin though, so the change is less painful knowing they lost us as much as we lost Tivo.


----------



## Trinitron

tivofromdayone said:


> Not a cent to Tivo or Virgin though, so the change is less painful knowing they lost us as much as we lost Tivo.


Strange logic.


----------



## alek

Trinitron said:


> Strange logic.


Not to us bloody minded people 

Alek


----------



## tivofromdayone

Trinitron said:


> Strange logic.


not strange. I still used Tivo with a freeview box and it worked flawleesly. GF has Sky+ and both units ran back to back. I don't want Virgin Media as I am happy with my broadband and she is happy with Sky+.

Tivo cut us off without a thought, so as we are not likely to ever go with VM and as Tivo is a VM only thing, then I feel happy that they both gain nothing from me. However, Tivo lose someone who would have been an embassador for how good the service was. Tivo kicking me in the nuts doesn't leave me wanting to say anything good about them. If anyone asks me about Tivo now they will either get nothing worthwhile or a story of how Tivo killed off off series one once they had their foot back in the door of the UK with Virgin Media.

For nigh on ten years after they gave up trying to get Tivo in the UK, Sky carried on with the EPG with Tivos blessing (At least I think thats how it went when the service came under skys banner). Now they are in bed with Virgin the Sky agreement and our EPG suddenly ends. No matter how many people say there is no link, the timing is far too coincidental.

Put another way, I have no idea how well Tivo has been integrated into a VM box, and with their cutting us off and the bitter feelings left, coupled with an existing Sky+ contract that suits her/us, we will not be buying into the new service via VM despite obviously missing Tivo. Consequently I am not in any postion to tell anyone who asks about Tivo if it is good or not. Just because something was good in the past doesn't mean a new product is equally worthwhile.

As a bit of a tech head and someone people used to ask questions of before buying new stuff, if nothing else I have become someone who is unable to truthfully assist them in their choice. Having access to Sky+ though, I can at least tell them (and show them) how that works.

anyway, just had a peek on ebay and Tivo series ones are selling from 5 pounds to 35 pounds. Clearly sates they are to lose EPG, one even has 3 offers on it. Imagine how much they were worth this time last year.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TIVO-PVR-10UK-working-order-/150565693597?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_DVDPlayers_Recorders&hash=item230e6a289d


----------



## alek

tivofromdayone said:


> Imagine how much they were worth this time last year.


About 18 mths ago I bought a lifetime subbed one for IIRC £80, off the bay

Alek


----------



## mikerr

tivofromdayone said:


> Tivo cut us off without a thought [...] If anyone asks me about Tivo now they will either get nothing worthwhile or a story of how Tivo killed off off series one once they had their foot back in the door of the UK with Virgin Media.
> 
> For nigh on ten years after they gave up trying to get Tivo in the UK, Sky carried on with the EPG with Tivos blessing.


Haha ! Sky had nothing to do with the EPG, that has _always _been provided by TiVo. 
Sky just dealt with credit cards, support and *marketing*.

It's arguably due to Sky's lack of marketing that TiVo failed here first time round:
http://www.techradar.com/news/television/tivo-sky-partnership-caused-uk-flop-674341



> Now they are in bed with Virgin the Sky agreement and our EPG suddenly ends. No matter how many people say there is no link, the timing is far too coincidental.


An alternative view is that For nigh on ten years, TiVo kept a loss making service active out of loyalty to customers. Only closing when there was an alternative service (at least for some).


----------



## Trinitron

tivofromdayone said:


> Tivo cut us off without a thought


I disagree. See Mikerr's post above.


----------



## tivofromdayone

However we look at it and whatever the reasons, something that was working (and is working), wont be working in June. We can snipe at each other and pick on bits and pieces we all say, but Tivo came back ino the country with Virgin and cut series one off very shortly after.

simple logc equals. TADA! new tivo, old Tivo can finally be cut off at the knees. 

I was always glad that the service was kept going (and I think I alluded to the fact I wasn't sure of the details, so dont give a stuff why sky were involved).the fact is they were a link in the chain somewhere and without them the Tivo service would have fallen when The yanks ran away after failing to get enough of a market share to make it worthwhile staying.

Oh, and we are not in a cabled area, Tivo via VM isnt an option for us, so the 'exciting' deal they prompt us with on the Tivo messages isnt worth diddly squat anyway


----------



## AMc

Tivo Inc never sold anything but subscriptions in the UK. 
Thomson licensed the Tivo series 1 design and sold a unit with Sky's marketing involvement.
When the Thomson license expired they still had lots of unsold units in the retail chain and decided not to continue with the arrangement (making their own PVRs from that point). 
All those Tivo units that were dumped through retail at £99 (from £399) are not likely to have made any of the stakeholders their money back.

AFAIK Tivo Inc have been continuing to provide the EPG at their expense since that point offset against the diminishing revenue from £10 a month subs.

Anyone who bought a lifetime subbed machine from eBay never paid Tivo a penny either and got a free ride. I paid £230 for my machine and £200 for the sub in 2003 and definitely got my moneys worth.

When Tivo finally make an exclusive arrangement with Virgin it seems entirely logical to cut their decade of losses on UK S1. I don't like it one bit but to suggest we've had anything other than a good run is IMHO unrealistic.


----------



## unitron

AMc said:


> Tivo Inc never sold anything but subscriptions in the UK.
> Thomson licensed the Tivo series 1 design and sold a unit with Sky's marketing involvement.
> When the Thomson license expired they still had lots of unsold units in the retail chain and decided not to continue with the arrangement (making their own PVRs from that point).
> All those Tivo units that were dumped through retail at £99 (from £399) are not likely to have made any of the stakeholders their money back.
> 
> AFAIK Tivo Inc have been continuing to provide the EPG at their expense since that point offset against the diminishing revenue from £10 a month subs.
> 
> Anyone who bought a lifetime subbed machine from eBay never paid Tivo a penny either and got a free ride. I paid £230 for my machine and £200 for the sub in 2003 and definitely got my moneys worth.
> 
> When Tivo finally make an exclusive arrangement with Virgin it seems entirely logical to cut their decade of losses on UK S1. I don't like it one bit but to suggest we've had anything other than a good run is IMHO unrealistic.


Did Tivo subsidize the hardware like they did in the U.S.? Or did they only provide the guide data in return for the subscription fees?

When Thomson dumped their back inventory, did they lose money on the sales, or did they somehow manage to stick Tivo with the loss?

If TiVo got hosed on the deal I hope they fired the lawyers that set it up to begin with.

Anyone who bought a lifetimed unit on eBay paid, I assume, a higher price than someone who bought an unsubscribed unit on eBay, so that can hardly be considered a "free ride".


----------



## Trinitron

"Strategic partnerships" was the corporate speak used back in the day...

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20040324132931/http://www.uk.tivo.com/5.4.asp


----------



## TCM2007

They ended up paying Thomson a bunch of shares in lieu of what they expected to subsidise them. In the millions of value.


----------



## unitron

Trinitron said:


> "Strategic partnerships" was the corporate speak used back in the day...
> 
> http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20040324132931/http://www.uk.tivo.com/5.4.asp


I found this from the link particularly amusing

"Philips Electronics, Sony Corporation of America and Thomson Multimedia  top consumer electronic manufacturers  have incorporated TiVo Personal TV Service into their own branded digital video recorders."

Makes it sound like Dell, Gateway, and Compaq in the mid-late '80s all decided to use MS-DOS, but in reality Microsoft handed them identical plans for a computer that can't be operated in any meaningful way by anyone else's software and told them to come up with different front panels.


----------



## spitfires

^ that's an interesting (but true!) spin on the words 

.


----------



## GWR71

mikerr said:


> It's arguably due to Sky's lack of marketing that TiVo failed here first time round


There must a fair bit more to it than that. Sky's slightly bizarre partnering with TiVo at a time when Sky+ must surely have been well along in development certainly didn't help TiVo long-term, but the whole concept of PVRs was always going to take a long time to take root in the UK, and by being first and having a subscription component, TiVo was at a disadvantage.

Even if they had partnered with a company that *wasn't* about to launch its own competing product, TiVo would have faced an uphill struggle for acceptance; it was a product that needed to be experienced in a typical domestic setting before many people really "got it". Remember the awful TV ad starring Martin Freeman?


----------



## TCM2007

For most people, when you told them about it the reaction was "it cost £10 a month and you don't get any more channels?". TiVo was never going to overcome that.


----------



## AMc

unitron said:


> Anyone who bought a lifetimed unit on eBay paid, I assume, a higher price than someone who bought an unsubscribed unit on eBay, so that can hardly be considered a "free ride".


My "free ride" comment referred to the fact that when you bought a 2nd hand lifetime unit Tivo saw no new revenue but a unit that continued to cost them money for EPG services.

Before Tivo announced the end of the EPG in the UK lifetime subs were worth about £50 premium on a used unit on eBay - unsubbed units going for about £30 and Tivo would still sell a lifetime sub for £200.
As all Tivos will all have been sold before 2004 they will have provided more than 20 months of service to their initial owners.

The new user paid a premium which had a very clear financial pay back - after about 5 months your small increase in initial investment resulted in a £10 a month saving.
The seller got a the benefit of a subscription that had probably paid for itself already in 20x£10 a month payments saved.
So they both won, Tivo continues to pay the price of the EPG for nothing so loses.

In contrast an eBay £10 a month unit will have been making Tivo a proportion of £120 a year since it was new and some new owners will have subscribed somewhere between £120 a year or £200 one off.

I suspect many monthly units probably ended up as spares keeping lifetime units running - losing Tivo revenue and increasing costs by extending the "lifetime" of other units.

It was a very canny thing to get a lifetime sub back in 2003. It was probably not that canny a thing to sell one that wasn't tied to the unmodified box and/or the user. I doubt that any electronics manufacturer back then would have anticipated that a user community would have been hacking, extending and upgrading the same product for almost 10 years while continuing to cost them money for an ongoing service.

IMHO the original lifetime agreement tied Tivo's hands when considering the cost of the S1 EPG as there would be no legal way to ask LT customers for a payment to make it anything other than a continuous loss.

I think their decision is financially understandable but I'm still very disappointed that Tivo are cutting us loose if we can't get cable.


----------



## alek

AMc said:


> My "free ride" comment referred to the fact that when you bought a 2nd hand lifetime unit Tivo saw no new revenue but a unit that continued to cost them money for EPG services.


Didn't matter to Tivo.

They weren't going to get anything anyway. Whether the OP kept it or sold it on

Tivos mistake was applying US marketing principles to the UK market.

Lots , well some, US companies offer lifetime guarantees on their products and mean it. If the product is still operating 10 years later they replace a part free, no questions asked.

It dosen't seem to work in the UK maybe it's to do with volumes.?

Alek


----------



## GWR71

TCM2007 said:


> For most people, when you told them about it the reaction was "it cost £10 a month and you don't get any more channels?"


Yes, I well remember it  Of course, if you mentioned the one-off sub payment, the response was "It costs [X] hundred quid to buy, and then you have to pay another two hundred quid to use it after you've bought it?"

It's kind of hard now to relate to how utterly alien the PVR concept was when TiVo first arrived. I remember that even with the marketing muscle of BSkyB behind it, Sky+ took a long time to gain traction because it was so expensive compared to a standard digibox and it cost an extra £10 per month.


----------



## AMc

If the sub had been tied to the user then the resale value would have been lower which would have meant more would have gone out of service - these were working units being retired.

If the sub had been tied to the original hard drives then many (most?) lifetime subbed units would have been taken out of service by hardware failure by now there would have been very few if any units still requiring an EPG. 

Both would have lowered Tivo's ongoing costs & perhaps resulted in fresh licences?

My PC wants to validate its licence when I disable a USB port so it wouldn't have been impossible on a box that makes a daily phone call.

I'm not arguing it would have been a good thing but the longevity of the units and the terms of the lifetime subscription have worked against the business proposition in the long term IMHO.


----------



## unitron

AMc said:


> My "free ride" comment referred to the fact that when you bought a 2nd hand lifetime unit Tivo saw no new revenue but a unit that continued to cost them money for EPG services...


It didn't cost them any more than if the original owner had kept it and continued to use it.


----------



## alek

AMc said:


> No it wouldn't
> 
> The epg had to be supplied, It's just as cheap to supply it to 6000 units as 5000.
> 
> Alek


----------



## TCM2007

Not quite - TiVo pay for the phone call.


----------



## spitfires

unitron said:


> It didn't cost them any more than if the original owner had kept it and continued to use it.


true but I think the point is that the seller was outing the unit and so TiVo would reasonably expect that unit to be taken out of circulation (since the seller doesn't want to use it any more). Instead it was passed on to a whole new subscriber at no revenue to TiVo.


----------



## spitfires

@AMc : interesting argument, so what you're saying is (in 2006) I *should* have bought a LS unit off fleece-u-bay and sold my existing TAM unit at the same time! Net cost to me £50 for a LS. Hmm, I never thought of that one!

(Cost of me doing nothing, 4 years at TAM - £50 = £430.  sad now  )

.


----------



## alek

TCM2007 said:


> Not quite - TiVo pay for the phone call.


Yes

I forgot about that.

I wonder how much each call costs ?

When you think about it, a daily call for 10 yrs would eat into the £200 and if they subsidised the box, well...

They really were on a burning deck.

Rapid expansion was needed and didn't happen.

Alek


----------



## alek

spitfires said:


> @AMc : interesting argument, so what you're saying is (in 2006) I *should* have bought a LS unit off fleece-u-bay and sold my existing TAM unit at the same time! Net cost to me £50 for a LS. Hmm, I never thought of that one!
> 
> (Cost of me doing nothing, 4 years at TAM - £50 = £430.  sad now  )
> 
> .


I paid a monthly sub until about 18 mths ago.

I bought a ls unit of the bay of e for IIRC £80 so still got my moneys worth.

The wife said she couldn't figure it out it was so unlike me.

Alek


----------



## Pete77

alek said:


> The wife said she couldn't figure it out it was so unlike me.


What was unlike you? Not buying a Lifetime Sub when the payback period was so short (20 months) or finally getting round to taking a chance by buying a Lifetime Subbed unit on Ebay?


----------



## AMc

spitfires said:


> @AMc : interesting argument, so what you're saying is (in 2006) I *should* have bought a LS unit off fleece-u-bay and sold my existing TAM unit at the same time! Net cost to me £50 for a LS. Hmm, I never thought of that one!
> 
> (Cost of me doing nothing, 4 years at TAM - £50 = £430.  sad now  )


Don't be sad, with the 20/20 of hindsight then yes, that would have been a good option. However if it was worth £10 a month to you at the time (and one must assume it was) then it wasn't wasted money - a fair exchange is no robbery.

The lifetime sub always looked like a gamble, I remember plugging my new box in in 2003 and less than a week later deciding that if it lasted 20 months then the it would be worth the risk. I still used a credit card for extra protection because people doomsaid about the EPG even then.

Remember at that point we had no expectation that the units would run for so long, that hard drives & PSUs could be replaced, eventually very easily and cheaply - I remember waiting until the original 12 month guaranty had run out AND hard drives had dropped below £1 a GB before upgrading to a whole 120GB!

Now it occurrs to me that had Tivo maintained a direct sales channel into the UK they could have sold me new hard drives and a network card too. I spent >£300 on hard disks and a cachecard which Tivo saw no benefit from apart from the saving on the dial up. If they'd made the LS continuation based on using "authorised parts" they could have kept more money coming in - still probably not a real revenue stream I guess.

It also occurs to me that my very first Tivo died and was 'swapped out' for a refurbished one almost immediately. I imagine sending that engineer to my door wiped out any revenue that Thomson/Tivo made from me then and there.


----------



## alek

Pete77 said:


> What was unlike you? Not buying a Lifetime Sub when the payback period was so short (20 months) or finally getting round to taking a chance by buying a Lifetime Subbed unit on Ebay?


For not buying the ls in the first place.

Alek


----------



## Trinitron

AMc said:


> The lifetime sub always looked like a gamble, I remember plugging my new box in in 2003 and less than a week later deciding that if it lasted 20 months then the it would be worth the risk. I still used a credit card for extra protection because people doomsaid about the EPG even then.


Exactly my thoughts too! Made all the more relevant at the time as I had bought a new ITV Digital box on a 12-month prepay deal in November 2001, only for them to fold 6 months later - I got my TiVo at the beginning of 2003 after a friend had seen one in action in the States and came home raving about it!!


----------



## spitfires

^ me too. I bought mine in Sep 2002 when the writing was already on the wall that they would pull the plug on sales... made the LS look very risky. Never expected them to keep the epg service going _after_ they pulled the plug 

And, of course, the longer they kept the epg going after they emigrated, the *more* riskier the LS looked! So I stuck with TAM. Hey ho - well worth it I say.


----------



## Pete77

I got mine in December 2002 from Currys in Horsham. A demonstrator model looking slightly the worse for wear that still had the demonstrator software on it. It cost me £129 as the cheapies at £99 at Comet or Powerhouse had all gone by that stage and I did not hear about them being available at that time.

To me going for the Lifetime Sub was an easy decision as I could see Tivo Inc in the USA was a larger and more successful business and I felt sure they would keep the service in the UK going for several years to protect their corporate good name, especially if they planned a future re-entry in to the UK. But anyhow I also paid on a credit card for the Tivo box and the Lifetime Sub and fully intended to claim against that if I had not at least had my £200 worth of monthly subs at £10 per month.

There is also the business that under current EU legislation and/or trading standards law a customer can claim back part of the cost of a product on the basis it is "Not Fit For The Purpose" if it doesn't last for five years. If there was no service to keep the product running within five years of purchase then you had a strong claim your Tivo was "Not Fit For The Purpose". OnDigital boxes were not covered by this legislation as they still allowed you to watch a wide variety of FTA television after the monthly subscription based tv channels ceased. But a Tivo box without an EPG within five years of purchase would have been "Not Fit For The Purpose" as it would have just become a large metal door stop (not the Purpose for which it was originally sold).


----------



## djqster

I bought mine for £200 from Currys after first explaining to the sales monkey what a TiVo was. After paying I then had to go off to the nearby Dixons to actually pick it up as Currys didn't have one.

I went TAM as I was expecting to buy a shiny new all-digital TiVo in a couple of years....


----------



## djrowley

I bought my Tivo in 2001 (I think) from Currys for £199. They didn't really know what it was. I payed the £200 immediately. It's still in daily use.

I notice that I've been a member on this forum since March 2002 - that's proabably when I bought the network card and was able to start hacking the thing.

David


----------



## johnscott99

Out of interest...

If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


----------



## alek

johnscott99 said:


> Out of interest...
> 
> If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


If Kim Bassinger asked you for a date would you go ?

It's just as likely to happen.

Alek


----------



## spitfires

Yes to both.

I'll get me coat.


----------



## unitron

johnscott99 said:


> Out of interest...
> 
> If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


Why wouldn't they just continue the same service for that same tenner?


----------



## AMc

johnscott99 said:


> If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


When they made the original announcement? Perhaps.
Now I've spent £345 on a PC and components to replace it? Not a chance.
Will I buy another Tivo product in future? Probably not.

The £10 monthly ongoing cost will already have encouraged a lot of migration I would hypothesise that most living S1's are on lifetime terms.
The kicker I suspect is that the terms in the lifetime subscription would make it very difficult to introduce a charge for the EPG.


----------



## alek

johnscott99 said:


> Out of interest...
> 
> If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


They couldn't even if they wanted to.

Virgin now has exclusive UK rights.

Alek


----------



## Pete77

unitron said:


> Why wouldn't they just continue the same service for that same tenner?


Because that's now too high a price for an EPG and a large part of the target audience have already paid for "Lifetime Service" so will begrudge paying as much as a tenner a month again.

In credibility terms Tivo can't really ask the Lifetimers for any more money without a lot of sticky legal problems. So its far the easier option for them to either keep it going on the old basis or close it down completely.


----------



## unitron

Pete77 said:


> Because that's now too high a price for an EPG and a large part of the target audience have already paid for "Lifetime Service" so will begrudge paying as much as a tenner a month again.
> 
> In credibility terms Tivo can't really ask the Lifetimers for any more money without a lot of sticky legal problems. So its far the easier option for them to either keep it going on the old basis or close it down completely.


So you're talking about owners of lifetimed and "TAM" S1s paying 5 a month for something that they could technically call a "new service"?

Maybe that'd go over better if it were 10 for non-lifetimed and a "discount" of 5 for lifetimers.


----------



## Trinitron

unitron said:


> Why wouldn't they just continue the same service for that same tenner?


Because that wasn't the question? Let me ask one of my own but with answers:

_If TiVo offered old series one users an alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?_
A) _Yes_
B) _I wouldn't pay them less than £10 a month_
C) _Never_
D) _Only if the date with Kim Basinger is guaranteed_


----------



## spitfires

Seeing the apparent strength of felling by the LS people I can't see them agreeing to £10 a month (even if Kim was included). Of course for the TAMs it would be no different than before.


----------



## Steve_K

Ah but I think you'll find the Series 1's have kept better than Kim B 

As a LS I'd rather pay £10 a month into a pursue TiVo through the courts fund than give the reneging sods a penny more.


----------



## unitron

Steve_K said:


> Ah but I think you'll find the Series 1's have kept better than Kim B...


Well, I'd certainly be willing to make an in person in-depth comparison and analysis. I'd even be willing to bring the S1.


----------



## djrowley

johnscott99 said:


> Out of interest...
> 
> If TiVo offered old series one users and alternate EPG service for a fee (say £5 a month) would you opt in?


Not now. The S1 has no freeview tuner so it has to drive a STB, and it can only record one channel. I've built myself an HTPC for rather less than the £400 I paid for the TiVo and subscription.

David


----------



## spitfires

Horses for courses. I've yet to find ANY alternative that does season passes and more particularly wishlists, as well as the TiVo does. 

If all you want is a glorified VCR then there are plenty of alternatives (as indeed there was when TiVo first came out).


----------



## BrianHughes

alek said:


> If Kim Bassinger asked you for a date would you go ?
> 
> It's just as likely to happen.
> 
> Alek


Is there a lifetime option?


----------



## Nimbus

spitfires said:


> Horses for courses. I've yet to find ANY alternative that does season passes and more particularly wishlists, as well as the TiVo does.
> 
> If all you want is a glorified VCR then there are plenty of alternatives (as indeed there was when TiVo first came out).


You are right, there is no alternative that is as good as a Tivo.. but if you dont want to pay Virgin a fortune.. what you going to do ???


----------



## Ian_m

spitfires said:


> Horses for courses. I've yet to find ANY alternative that does season passes and more particularly wishlists, as well as the TiVo does.


Quite a few other boxes, my Humax FreeSat box included, often don't include the finals of series in their equivalent of Season Passes as the name is often different.... Dancing on Ice is case in point... Luckily the TiVo Season Pass got the final..


----------



## AMc

I've also had similar problems with Tivo - for example when someone mispasted Mastermind for Masterchef in the listings and dropped an epsiode - might even have been the final - luckily we have season passes for both so it still recorded.

W7 MCE seems to use a loose text match on title across channels (or restricted to a channel) for all its season pass/wishlist recording. Only time will tell if I find this reliable. 
It is marginally worse at catching old series and multiple showings but as "first run only" could also be wobbly on Tivo that's not all their fault. At least with multiple tuners and 1TB of storage it's less of an issue.


----------



## TCM2007

AMc said:


> W7 MCE seems to use a loose text match on title across channels (or restricted to a channel) for all its season pass/wishlist recording. Only time will tell if I find this reliable.


No, MC7 uses exactly the same kind of rich metadata feed with linked series IDs as TiVo does for season passes, it's created by Red Bee Media Broadcasting Dataservices (originally a BBC/ITV joint venture) rather then Tribune. And just like TiVo, sometimes the data is wrong. I don't find the error rate noticeably different.

You can change data supplier if you prefer; I believe many use Digiguide. For Freeview, you can set MC7 to use the broadcast Freeview EPG data instead of the downloaded one.

Wishlists on MC7 and TiVo are of course text match based.


----------



## AMc

So I'm still learning then  I'm getting a lot of repeats and dups in my new system but as it's still orphaned off in another room and seldom watched I'm not using it properly enough to judge why.


----------



## baward

Nimbus said:


> You are right, there is no alternative that is as good as a Tivo.. but if you dont want to pay Virgin a fortune.. what you going to do ???


Only about 8 weeks left of that little green 30 mins bar before the service stops. Still not sure what I'm going to do without it 

The only thing I'm not fond of with the Season Pass is not the Tivo, but the broadcasters. Why can't they play out things on schedule? The BBC seem worst at this (by far), but I have noticed C4 getting rather poor at this lately too.

Its irritating having to add recording 'padding' to my Season Passes each time, especially if they tread on the toes of another programme I've previously added by a broadcaster with a working clock...


----------



## Pete77

baward said:


> Only about 8 weeks left of that little green 30 mins bar before the service stops. Still not sure what I'm going to do without it


Aren't you planning to switch to the free replacement Tivo S1 EPG service being put together by Dave of Tivocentral and Mike of Tivoland?


----------



## TCM2007

It's being put together by quite a few people(in aprticular some Australian friend who are earning a lot of Fosters).

Havent seen you helping out the Pete?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> It's being put together by quite a few people(in aprticular some Australian friend who are earning a lot of Fosters).
> 
> Haven't seen you helping out the Pete?


I couldn't help with the programming but if they need someone to check the completeness or accuracy of the final EPG data I'm pretty good at looking at that sort of thing.

Where do they plan to source the data from and how many days of data will there be? Would I be right in thinking that all data will now be up to 14 rather than up to 21 days?

Or can we only discuss all this kind of thing over on the Tivoland website?

Also are you helping out? If so what is your motivation on such an old and outdated product from your point of view?


----------



## TCM2007

I suggest you go over and see if you can help rather than duplicating discussions here.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I suggest you go over and see if you can help rather than duplicating discussions here.


After just visiting I see that you have also been asked about your own willingness or otherwise to be involved in the replacement EPG project over there.


----------



## TCM2007

And I have been doing stuff Pete!


----------



## baward

Pete77 said:


> Aren't you planning to switch to the free replacement Tivo S1 EPG service being put together by Dave of Tivocentral and Mike of Tivoland?


Yes - I should probably have made that clear in my post  . I _really_ meant that the official support will end shortly.


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## henry111

I'm as disappointed as everyone else here at TiVo dropping S1 support in the UK. I bought my first TiVo in 2000 when I saw it in Best Buy in San Francisco. I bought two DirecTV TiVos when they arrived on the scene a year or so later. I bought the last Thomson TiVo in my local Comet when I moved back to the UK in 2002, and I'm still using (and loving) it to this day.
toxin foot pads


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## Pete77

henry111 said:


> I bought the last Thomson TiVo in my local Comet when I moved back to the UK in 2002, and I'm still using (and loving) it to this day.


henry111 your forum profile still says that you live in the USA.


----------



## nolner

.


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## nolner

Only just seen this as now in Australia - tho my parents still use the s1 Tivo I bought with a lifetime sub. 

I agree this sucks - very shoddy - I think we should be complaining to VIRGIN too - maybe Richard himself?!

For an idea of how an independent EPG might work check out:

oztivo dot net


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## nolner

.


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## nolner

We should complain to virgin too - maybe Richard himself!

To see how an independent EGP co-op works see:

oztivo dot net


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## LarryDavid

someones already on that

http://www.tivoland.com/forum/


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## gazter

spitfires said:


> Horses for courses. I've yet to find ANY alternative that does season passes and more particularly wishlists, as well as the TiVo does.
> 
> If all you want is a glorified VCR then there are plenty of alternatives (as indeed there was when TiVo first came out).


I was never a big user of wishlists, but i can tell you W7 media centre does season passes just as well as Tivo.

I would imagine freeview is pretty easy to setup, i however, have sky coming through on three different tuners. Fantastic quality, not as maintenance free as tivo of course, but very few things are.


----------



## baward

2 quick questions: 

- Will I be able to use a Tivo other than a Series 1 (presumably by buying one in the USA) with the revived service?

- Will I be able to plug a Freeview HD box into the Tivo, as I can with standard Freeview?

Thanks!

Ben


----------



## spitfires

The alt service will only support UK Series 1 TiVos.

The S1 TiVo only records in SD.

.


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## healeydave

spitfires said:


> The alt service will only support UK Series 1 TiVos.
> 
> The S1 TiVo only records in SD.
> 
> .


Actually the AltEPG will support more than the S1 UK Tivo, but initially thats all we will be supporting.


----------



## healeydave

Pete77 said:


> Aren't you planning to switch to the free replacement Tivo S1 EPG service being put together by Dave of Tivocentral and Mike of Tivoland?


Hehe, its Dave of tivoland.com , not Mike 

In fact I don't know what happened to Mike, haven't heard sight nor sound from him apart from one email back in March.


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## Pete77

healeydave said:


> In fact I don't know what happened to Mike, haven't heard sight nor sound from him apart from one email back in March.


That does sound rather disturbing as I am struck by just how little activity is being reported in the Work In Progress section of your Tivoland forum for something that allegedly will go live in just another 24 days from now.

Personally I fully expect that there may well be a gap in service after June 1st but that once we are cut off for real that this will concentrate minds and that a replacement will be in place before the start of September. The summer is on the whole a time to be doing things other than watching tv and I also have enough stuff recorded on my Tivo to tide me over in the interim.

Of course I do sincerly hope that you guys will have something running on June 1st but I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why not including the fact that no widespread testing of the new service seems to be going on at the present time.


----------



## baward

spitfires said:


> The alt service will only support UK Series 1 TiVos.
> 
> The S1 TiVo only records in SD.
> 
> .


Many thanks for your reply.


----------



## Pete77

baward said:


> Many thanks for your reply.


He isn't necessarily right though.

The dual tuner S2 may well be supported in due course and given the incentives to do so some method of getting a Tivo working that can support HD recording may one day be found. However all of those things will take quite a long time to happen and may not happen at all and only the provision of a replacement EPG service for SD S1 Tivo boxes is being targeted for June 1st.


----------



## healeydave

Pete77 said:


> That does sound rather disturbing as I am struck by just how little activity is being reported in the Work In Progress section of your Tivoland forum for something that allegedly will go live in just another 24 days from now.


You know, I've been on these forums a lot of years and seen a lot of bad feeling aimed toward you Pete. I've always tried to refrain or separate myself from these type of discussions and whilst I will still hold back on the language, lets put it this way, I can see why!!

Have you never took a moment to wonder why you get a lot of flack and every thought about trying to improve yourself?
Rubbing people up the wrong way throughout life is a waste of their time and yours!

Now I'll speak a little on your comments before I take the rest of the evening off:

The WIP forum was created at the beginning of the project. Once the Oz team came on board and we got a few initial tasks done, certain people involved with the project took on certain roles and responsibilities. So putting out project requests and documenting WIP is a luxury we could not afford. After advise from the Oz guy's, who have been through this after-all, there is actually a quiet forum where serious discussions and points about the project could be made (without the chatter). No doubt much of what you were hoping to find is in there but of-course by not knowing that you immediately assumed a lack of effort. A few people contributed early on, but have not been prolific throughout the project due to work commitments etc. and other people joined at a apt time and grabbed tasks by the scruff of the neck and got on with them for which I am truly grateful and I have congratulated them previously on the forum. For the record, Mike did not help us or start on the project at any point, we have no idea whether he is busy with other stuff or is doing his own thing to be honest, but his absence is again irrelevant to the idea that nothing has been going on!!



Pete77 said:


> Personally I fully expect that there may well be a gap in service after June 1st


We are behind on the DUN solution, that I admit, but unless things take a drastic change for the worse, I am happy enough to not be worried about June 1st. In fact I am moving my Lounge Tivo over to AltEPG tomorrow.



Pete77 said:


> Of course I do sincerly hope that you guys will have something running on June 1st but I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why not including the fact that no widespread testing of the new service seems to be going on at the present time.


We already started Alpha Testing Phase 1 and are on Alpha Testing Phase 2. The technicalities of alpha and beta for a beast like this are somewhat blurred, but considering we are under no obligation to provide any service after June 1st, I do expect everyone using AltEPG going forwards to be "widespread testers" because this is a work in progress and by that I mean we will seek to continue working on improve the system for as long as its worthwhile running!

Perhaps if you have any interest in using AltEPG at all, you'd be better off spending some time in the AltEPG forum, rather than here which is technically an "S1 forum for the official TiVo service" and in that respect and in your words, has 24 days left to live!
Most UK users seemed to have moved on to the "Official UK VM" forum or the "AltEPG" forum, which given our circumstances, makes sense, no?


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> He isn't necessarily right though.


Yes I am.



Pete77 said:


> The dual tuner S2 may well be supported in due course. However all of those things will take quite a long time and may not happen at all and only the provision of a replacement EPG service for SD S1 Tivo boxes is being targeted for June 1st.


He didn't ask about future ideas; he asked what the alternative epg will support - that is a UK S1 with version 2.5.5 software.

I didn't realise you were that closely involved in defining the direction of the AltEPG project!...

For the avoidance of doubt:
- There are no plans to support S2/S3/etc TiVos
- There are no plans to support HD
- There are no plans to support multiple tuners

If anyone needs any of those things then the alternative epg TiVo is not for you.

p.s. oh and the replacement service WILL be available on 1st June!

.


----------



## healeydave

spitfires said:


> For the avoidance of doubt:
> - There are no plans to support S2/S3/etc TiVos
> - There are no plans to support HD
> - There are no plans to support multiple tuners
> 
> If anyone needs any of those things then the alternative epg TiVo is not for you.


*Please don't speak for the project, as far as I'm concerned, no decisions like this have been made!!!
*I, for one am interested in looking into these area's. As far as I'm concerned project etiquette means we will never offer a service involving a competing HD Cable product in the UK!
I see some of these the boxes suggested as no different to the other countries that imported and hacked Tivo models to work in the absence of an official offering!


----------



## spitfires

Are you saying there _are _"plans" to introduce these? I'm not aware of any PLANS - there may be TALK but that's not "plans" is it.

Dave, you're not doing yourself or the project any favours by failing to manage people's expectations of exactly what is going to be available for at least the first 3 (6?) months of AltEPG service.

p.s. I never said "never" - I said there are no current "plans". Which there aren't. There is obvious confusion in people's minds as to _exactly _what will be available on 1st June. A definitive statement is needed so people know what they are getting (and thereby avoid disappointment).


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## martink0646

spitfires said:


> Are you saying there _are _"plans" to introduce these? I'm not aware of any PLANS - there may be TALK but that's not "plans" is it.
> 
> Dave, you're not doing yourself or the project any favours by failing to manage people's expectations of exactly what is going to be available for at least the first 3 (6?) months of AltEPG service.
> 
> p.s. I never said "never" - I said there are no current "plans". Which there aren't. There is obvious confusion in people's minds as to _exactly _what will be available on 1st June. A definitive statement is needed so people know what they are getting (and thereby avoid disappointment).


Hi Guys,

Can I just say that I & I'm sure many others truly appreciate the work that is going on on the other forum for the AltEPG service.

May I humbly suggest though that the last place that any dissent between people who are affiliated with the new project should be aired is here. Any references on here surely should be to inform people that it exists, that the service will continue & to encourage people to move over to your forum to read about it.

Any negatives here could dissuade people from even looking & that would be a tremendous shame after all the work you have done. I for one am amazed that we will still have a TiVo service after June 1st.:up::up::up::up: SWMBO still refuses to believe it's true, especially the fact that it is going to be free, although this probably says more about her slightly jaundiced view of the world than anything else

Martin


----------



## healeydave

spitfires said:


> Are you saying there _are _"plans" to introduce these?


This is not the place for these discussions, in fact if anyone wants to know anything related to the AltEPG project, out of respect for the Tivo Community forum rules, they should be discussing it on the Alternative EPG forum.

The main objective currently for AltEPG is to get Guide Data to users after June 1st.

The statement,


> If anyone needs any of those things then the alternative epg TiVo is not for you


 is a pretty strong statement and no-one should be making that unless they are referring to the AltEPG offering a "VM HD Cable TiVo"!


----------



## healeydave

martink0646 said:


> May I humbly suggest though that the last place that any dissent between people who are affiliated with the new project should be aired is here. Any references on here surely should be to inform people that it exists, that the service will continue & to encourage people to move over to your forum to read about it.


Absolutely agree 100%!


----------



## spitfires

healeydave said:


> is a pretty strong statement


Quite, and putting it back in it's original context (and in the context of this thread):

If you are looking for (any of)
- functionality of the S2/S3/etc TiVos
- support for HD
- support for multiple tuners
then what the AltEPG project will deliver on 1st June is not for you.

I'm certain that some people (and not just Pete) think some of the above _is_ what is they are getting - it is important they are not misled.


----------



## irrelevant

spitfires said:


> I'm certain that some people (and not just Pete) think some of the above _is_ what is they are getting - it is important they are not misled.


I don't think that is the case at all. The AltEpg project aim is quite clear: to provide a mechanism whereby the existing UK S1 TiVo userbase can continue to use their bought and paid for TiVos. To that extent, the core priority of the service is to ensure that support for UK S1 TiVos will be there on 1st June.

Moving on, I can see support for S2 and later boxes being made available - indeed, they may already work, if anybody has one, as the server software supports S2 at least. However, at present, nobody I know has one to test it, and it's not a priority.

I certainly don't see any need for such definitively negative statements being made at this time, particularly as you are not privy to the decisions being made about implementation - just because there are "no plans" being published for a particular enhancement does not mean they are not being considered. By wording things as you are, you are suggesting that decisions have been made not to support these things, when this is not the case.

[At one point the dominant UK Cable-TV provider had "no plans" to provide cable-internet, actually deciding to cancel the trial cable-modem service set up by one of the franchises they took over. (Nynex->C&W, Manchester, c1996. I was on that trial.) Now look where they are.]


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## baward

irrelevant said:


> I don't think that is the case at all. The AltEpg project aim is quite clear: to provide a mechanism whereby the existing UK S1 TiVo userbase can continue to use their bought and paid for TiVos. To that extent, the core priority of the service is to ensure that support for UK S1 TiVos will be there on 1st June.


I would have been surprised to hear the news that HD, Series 2+ etc. was going to be supported with AltEPG. I asked because I am happy to carry on receiving standard def. after June 1, and also happy to avoid the considerable cost of investing a HD PVR, such as a Humax, at this time.

I reiterate my appreciation of what the team are doing


----------



## spitfires

@irrelevant
Oh for pity sake. What is negative about simply stating what people WILL get on 1st June?

You yourself say that "no plans" does not mean never and should, of course, not be interpreted as such. Exactly!

The fact that post #483 exists quite clearly shows that the absence of a definitive statement from the alternative project is not doing anyone any favours.

No I am not "privy to the decisions being made about implementation" - and why is that?

There are now 22 days left - isn't it time the alternative project started telling people what they WILL get on 1st June? By NOT saying, you suggest that you don't actually know!

*sigh* [flames expected as per usual]


----------



## TCM2007

Lots of quibbling over semantics. At launch the AltEPG will simply replace the current TiVo one for UK S1 devices. It may or may not support a manned mission to Mars at some later point.


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## healeydave

TCM2007 said:


> Lots of quibbling over semantics. At launch the AltEPG will simply replace the current TiVo one for UK S1 devices. It may or may not support a manned mission to Mars at some later point.


Love it, the first thing thats made me smile today!


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## sjp

TCM2007 said:


> Lots of quibbling over semantics. At launch the AltEPG will simply replace the current TiVo one for UK S1 devices. It may or may not support a manned mission to Mars at some later point.


now there's a beta test the wife would support, for me of course


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## CarlWalters

Where do I register for the Mars Mission? 

(struggling through Red Mars/BlueMars/Green Mars at the moment)


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## irrelevant

spitfires said:


> @irrelevant
> Oh for pity sake. What is negative about simply stating what people WILL get on 1st June?


Nothing. But in #484, by using the word "only" you also specified what people will NOT get. It was a categorical statement, and it is that which got peoples backs up, as you are not in a position to state such things.


spitfires said:


> The alt service will only support UK Series 1 TiVos.


Anyway, I'm not going to argue any further. I have much more enjoyable things to do.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> *sigh* [flames expected as per usual]


In my experience that is the normal consequence of pouring large amounts of liquid fuel on something before stepping back and tossing a match on it.

I have found all of irrelevant's posts on this topic to be perfectly helpful whereas I unfortunately cannot always say the same for your own at times distinctly caustic literary style.

It is the nature of this project that it is bound to be a little amateur since no business angle is involved (no one is going to get any money out of all the hard work they are doing) and in the nature of things volunteers can complete tasks when it pleases them within reason.

I view it as entirely possible that there could well be a short term break in EPG service after June 1st but if Tivo really do cut us off on that date (I see a last minute extension of 3 to 6 months in service as being far from impossible given that Virgin have not yet upgraded all Tivo S1 customers who want to be upgraded) then that fact will I am sure spur people in to Herculean final efforts to get a new EPG service going pretty quickly.


----------



## spitfires

Pete77 said:


> I unfortunately cannot always say the same for your own at times distinctly caustic literary style.


Thank you - I really value your support.


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> Thank you - I really value your support.


I'm sure we shouldn't all disagree like this when ultimately we are all on the same side (wanting to keep our S1 Tivos going) but as the 30th June deadline approaches people are bound to become a little more worried and stressed.

Also mikerr's mysterious disappearance from involvement in the project seems rather discouraging but I suspect happened at the point when he realised that people wouldn't be forced to replace their hard drive with one prepared by him or Dave in order to go on receiving S1 service.

And of course he now has a Virgin Media Tivo as his own main means of recording tv programs........


----------



## mikerr

Pete77 said:


> Also mikerr's mysterious disappearance from involvement in the project seems rather discouraging but I suspect happened at the point when he realised that people wouldn't be forced to replace their hard drive with one prepared by him or Dave in order to go on receiving S1 service.


More the issues of my lack of time due to work commitments and development going private when the OzTivo folk allowed use of their server & emulator code. While I did make a start with a direct epg slice loading system, the emulator is the better way to go, and there's no need for two competing systems.

They've done a sterling job, and everyone should be grateful to have any service after June 1st.


----------



## healeydave

Thanks Mike.

Being a VM customer, can you advise if the Series 1 Remote works with the new VM box.
My gut feeling is TiVo might have kept the frequencies compatible but like the USA black remotes, there are probably buttons missing etc!?

I had someone ask and I have no idea and no means of finding out


----------



## mikerr

No - it uses the exact same codes as the V+ remote (to the extent a V+ remote will control a VM TiVo).

It does mean you can have S1 TiVo and VM TiVo in the same room without interference.


----------



## Pete77

mikerr said:


> No - it uses the exact same codes as the V+ remote (to the extent a V+ remote will control a VM TiVo).


So no chance for any Virgin Tivo owner to replace their remote with a nasty Home button with one with a nice Tivo Guy on it then?

Short that is of pulling off buttons on the remote and trying to use Superglu?

So far as the AltEPG project is concerned I'm just hoping that the fact that it has been done before makes it all as straightforward a task as it appears to be compared to designing something from the Ground Up as you clearly started to try to do at one stage. The only thing that worries me is that none of those other places previously had a full Tivo service so were probably more inclined to put up with any deficiencies or omissions in their home grown service compared to the full OEM Tivo EPG product. Whereas we having had the full blown product might find some of those omissions in the replacement data feed rather more frustrating.


----------



## mikerr

You might be able to get a TiVo Glo-remote to work with it, as that can learn IR codes on a key by key basis - it would be very laborious though, doing that for all the buttons!


----------



## RichardJH

healeydave said:


> Being a VM customer, can you advise if the Series 1 Remote works with the new VM box.
> My gut feeling is TiVo might have kept the frequencies compatible but like the USA black remotes, there are probably buttons missing etc!?
> 
> I had someone ask and I have no idea and no means of finding out


Dave
I have VM Tivo and 2 S1 Tivos. Have just played around with all the remotes and they do not interact with each other.
From previous experience all the VM equipment has used a lot of common IR codes. EG the standard STB remote and the V+ remote do operate some functions on the VM Tivo, also the VM remote has no switching facility to allow 2 units to be used in the same room.

Hope this helps

Richard


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Whereas we having had the full blown product might find some of those omissions in the replacement data feed rather more frustrating.


What omissions might those be, o miserable one?


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> What omissions might those be, o miserable one?


Well most critical would be series linking and a series link continuing on from one series to the next as it does at present. Having said that given the number of +1 channels on non Beeb stations I have been giving serious thought for some time to replacing a lot of my Series Links on non Beeb stations with Title Wishlists. The only issue there is series where one watches their very latest episodes on one channel but another channel shows episodes you have already seen a year or two earlier. Of course I know First Run only is meant to solve all that but in practice it brings its own reliability issues.

The Series Links must surely be coded in by some kind of Metadata that Tribune does work on and as everyone else including Sky does Series Links less well than Tivo/Tribune I can only presume that a fair bit of manual intervention in the data is involved. Of course it may be that in practice that crowd sourcing techniques proposed by the AltEPG service will cause us to spot those broken links and fix them before the program airs.

I'm not trying to be miserable but just realistic as the greatest enthusiasts on a project will always talk up a storm that we can do it better than lousy old Tribune and Tivo only to find when it comes right down to it that Tribune and Tivo were not doing such a bad job because getting this kind of data right 100% of the time is actually quite difficult to do. If that wasn't true one wouldn't in fact find customers missing recording on things they think they have Series Links or the start or end of programs for on almost every type of PVR currently in the marketplace.

However I do definitely expect some improvements by the AltEPG project such as random relatively mainstream Freesat channels like CBS Drama that Tribune lacks EPG data for having it provided for the first time.


----------



## Steve_K

FWIW I'll be very grateful for ANY functionality the AltEPG guys come up with.

Yes there are loads of things we might wish for Pete but as the phrase goes "the best is the enemy of the good". I'll settle for good.


----------



## Pete77

Steve_K said:


> Yes there are loads of things we might wish for Pete but as the phrase goes "the best is the enemy of the good". I'll settle for good.


And/or "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" as may be more apt in this particular case.

However the only thing that is worth pointing out is that aside from a certain economy of the pocket and an allergy to change for the sake of it the reason many of us have kept our S1 Tivos going is because so long as you are prepared to put up without HD recording and suffer the occasional recording clash (now a very trivial problem compared to eight or nine years ago with all the +1 options for non BBC stations for those us with Freesat or ex subscription Sky boxes) our Tivos still have superior functionality (including far superior manipulation of playback and Suggestions) to any other PVR in the marketplace.

However if whilst the AltEPG project just about worked service was a little wobbly and unreliable compared to what we have now it might be the tipping point for quite a few people (myself included) to more actively consider alternative options. I do however have every possible admiration for the guys who are going to all the trouble to offer us a replacement EPG and I do hope that this will mean I can keep my S1 Tivo going for a long time to come.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete, why don't you give AltEPG the benefit of the doubt rather than just assuming it will have all these issues? You have NO knowledge whatsoever about what the EPG and its metadata will be like, and speading unfounded rumours that it will not work properly helps no-one.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Pete, why don't you give AltEPG the benefit of the doubt rather than just assuming it will have all these issues? You have NO knowledge whatsoever about what the EPG and its metadata will be like, and speading unfounded rumours that it will not work properly helps no-one.


I'm not suggesting that those working on the AltEPG project won't be approaching things professionally but I would imagine there is a good deal of specialist knowledge at Tribune involved in manipulating the Metadata to properly support Season Passes and keyword matches and genre matches etc and matching that completely will be quite difficult. However I am sure if it is not fully possible it won't be for the want of trying.

However in Australia, Canada, NZ, SA or Holland it was a choice between a Tivo that largely worked and no Tivo at all compared to here where we have had a fully working Tivo up to now so that does mean that expectations about what the AltEPG ought to be able to do will undoubtedly be higher than in any of those countries.

Of course its worth making the effort to try to get a replacement service going and undoubtedly the AltEPG service will get better over time as those running it move up the Learning Curve but I think it would be wrong to give people the impression that there will be completely smooth sailing for the first few weeks compared to what people are currently used to.


----------



## AMc

If you check the link in TCM2007 sig you'll see that the EPG looks like it will be "crowdsourced" with registered users able to update the EPG data to improve it.

If you check the forums at Tivoland you'll see there is already some discussion about how to deal with BBC F1 programming which has previously been a source of some irritation to many.

My experience is that enthusiastic users are diligent and if you care about a series then the ability to update the data yourself will make it much more reliable that the largely automated & unattended feeds we've had recently.

I think the AltEPG is likely to be better than the current service for the most mainstream channels - I'm hoping for better OAD info which makes first run more useful.
I appreciate that coverage of Zone Romantica may not be quite as comprehensive as BBC1 but given it's free I suspect it will be pretty good value for money!.

I would also anticipate that the ability for former pay as you go Tivos to receive a full, free service may add a fair few hackers and enthusiasts.

The future looks pretty bright to me providing people kicking the legal wasp nest don't summon a cease and desist order...but that's another thread.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> Of course its worth making the effort to try to get a replacement service going and undoubtedly the AltEPG service will get better over time as those running it move up the Learning Curve but I think it would be wrong to give people the impression that there will be completely smooth sailing for the first few weeks compared to what people are currently used to.


Again, you have NO INFORMATION AT ALL to base that on bar your own assumptions; which is of course your trademark.

However, to repeat, suggesting it won't work properly, as you have done, can only put people off trying it.

It would be better if you kept such opinions to yourself, to give it the best chance of succeeding.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Again, you have NO INFORMATION AT ALL to base that on bar your own assumptions; which is of course your trademark.
> 
> However, to repeat, suggesting it won't work properly, as you have done, can only put people off trying it.
> 
> It would be better if you kept such opinions to yourself, to give it the best chance of succeeding


What a lot of tosh you talk at times TCM2007. And please do remember that I am not one of your employees so I would be grateful if you did not speak to me as though you were standing above me on some lofty senior management position platform.

I would suggest that almost anyone who reads this forum and still uses an S1 Tivo (which does not of course include yourself as you were an early abandoner of your S1 Tivo) is going to try to use the new EPG service when we reach the date in June on which their Tivo no longer has any EPG data.

All anyone has to do to use the new service is change a telephone dial prefix or the settings in one file on the Tivo via FTP (if they already access Tivo data via network card over the internet) so why would anyone not try that when failing to do so would leave them with a useless PVR.

My view would be that everyone reading this forum who still uses an S1 Tivo will try the new service and only if they find it severely deficient in some respect will they consider getting another PVR to replace their Tivo.

The comments you have made about me above are like those of some angry company marketing director cross that his staff are not sufficiently talking up only the plus points of a new service or product. However this is not a commercial project and there is no lost sales or sales income at stake but people will still try the new service regardless of what I do or say due to TINA - that is that There Is No Alternative.


----------



## Pete77

So just to start comparing notes on what is clearly going to become an active topic from now on my System Information screen on my S1 Tivo today shows a Last Successful call at 8pm on Thursday 12th May and Programme Guide Data to Thursday 2nd June.

However when I go to the Live Tv button EPG screen on the Tivo and use the Enter button to change the day to Thursday 26th May (the latest it will allow) and then look up details for CBS Action on Sky Channel 148 and manually scroll down until data runs out I find that the last available program is NCIS at 12am on 2nd June. However if Tribune is applying a strict 1st June EPG cutoff they might choose to interpret 12am 2nd June as still being part of the 1st June to avoid an argument (it would after all be part of your tv viewing on the night of 1st June if you watched live but most people go to bed by 2am).

So the acid test of when the current EPG service will completely discontinue potentially comes with tonight's daily call and whether the "Guide Data to" date moves on to June 3rd on CBS Action and other satellite channels for which Tribune provides 21 days data updates.

In other words will the final day our Tivos can record a program using official Tivo EPG data be June 1st or will it be June 21st or 22nd?


----------



## TCM2007

Read back through the threads over the last few months Pete. Many have abandoned ship already, without waiting. If they think the new service will be bad that can only make that worse.

If you think what I said was talking down to you, you should have read what I originally wrote, which included words like "ungrateful" and "miserable" among the few the swear check on this forum would allow.

If the AltEPG were my project I'd probably bar your IP address from accessing it after the sheer negativity of some of your comments about it. Fortunately for you the folks running the project aren't evil capitalists like me.

Did you mother never tell you "if you can't say someting nice about someing, say nothing"?


----------



## Steve_K

quote from another thread but my reply probably more relevant in this one


TCM2007 said:


> Where thye should have been clearer in the wording is that it should have said "No payments for the Lifetime of the box", as that obviusly what they meant . .


Not sure what they meant but agree they should have said soemthing like you suggest.

Instead they said they guaranteed the service:


TiVo said:


> Definition of Lifetime Service. If you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder, the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend of family member. The TiVo service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any others you may purchase.


IMHO they genuinely thought Sky would lever them to massive sales in the UK, so they would be able to stop offering Lifetime subs after a few months and the early adopters would be an affordable burden. As many of the early threads here show they were desparately naiive - almost arrogantly so - about how Sky operate, what makes a good marketing pitch and market intolerance to what they saw as "features" and we saw as failures.

One day they'll use TiVo as a reference in business management training -in the "how not to" examples.

And Sky+ as an example of how (like VHS) an inferior product well marketed wins nigh on everytime


----------



## velocitysurfer1

Pete77 said:


> So just to start comparing notes on what is clearly going to become an active topic from now on my System Information screen on my S1 Tivo today shows a Last Successful call at 8pm on Thursday 12th May and Programme Guide Data to Thursday 2nd June.
> 
> However when I go to the Live Tv button EPG screen on the Tivo and use the Enter button to change the day to Thursday 26th May (the latest it will allow) and then look up details for CBS Action on Sky Channel 148 and manually scroll down until data runs out I find that the last available program is NCIS at 12am on 2nd June.


after reading the above I did a daily call around 9pm tonight. Currently channel 144 runs to 12am on 3rd June.


----------



## Pete77

velocitysurfer1 said:


> after reading the above I did a daily call around 9pm tonight. Currently channel 144 runs to 12am on 3rd June.


I forced a manual update of my Tivo around 5.30pm today and like you found that the Programme Guide Data To date was now updated to June 2nd and that channel 144's last program was now at 12am on June 3rd (which Tribune still seems to count as being part of June 2nd).

So it looks like we will have EPG data to June 21st or June 22nd on CBS Action and other channels with 21 days of EPG data, assuming that is that Tivo even manage to cut off the service from June 1st, which I am still not convinced will actually happen.

Wouldn't it be a great wheeze for Tivo to now say that they have decided to also "Reach Out" to their S1 customers not in a Virgin Cable area by keeping the Tivo service going whilst still having conned the more financially comfortable Tivo S1 user base in Virgin land to upgrade to the new Virgin Tivo. I expect when Tivo read of the nasty sounding legal actions that certain people here have planned and the possible collateral damage to the Virgin project they might end up deciding that keeping the service going for the S1 machines is actually their best option.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> If the AltEPG were my project I'd probably bar your IP address from accessing it after the sheer negativity of some of your comments about it. Fortunately for you the folks running the project aren't evil capitalists like me.


Whilst I may at times have attempted to parody your apparent self importance as a self proclaimed Tivo guru I had actually always thought you were still a big enough person at heart not to suggest acting in such a petty and spiteful manner. I am therefore sorry to find that I made such a poor misjudgement of your character.

I have never said the AltEPG project is total rubbish and no one should use it have just said don't underestimate the difficulty of doing something like this day in day out and my view actually has some professional basis since I worked for a company that had to collect distribute prices and dividends for 50,000 or so investment funds to hundreds of clients on every single business day of the year.


----------



## unitron

Steve_K said:


> quote from another thread but my reply probably more relevant in this one
> 
> Not sure what they meant but agree they should have said soemthing like you suggest.
> 
> Instead they said they guaranteed the service:
> 
> IMHO they genuinely thought Sky would lever them to massive sales in the UK, so they would be able to stop offering Lifetime subs after a few months and the early adopters would be an affordable burden. As many of the early threads here show they were desparately naiive - almost arrogantly so - about how Sky operate, what makes a good marketing pitch and market intolerance to what they saw as "features" and we saw as failures.
> 
> One day they'll use TiVo as a reference in business management training -in the "how not to" examples.
> 
> And Sky+ as an example of how (like VHS) an inferior product well marketed wins nigh on everytime


If TiVo actually put this in writing

"Definition of Lifetime Service. If you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder, the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend of family member. The TiVo service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any others you may purchase."

do you have class action suits in the UK?


----------



## Pete77

unitron said:


> do you have class action suits in the UK?


The ability of Brits to engage in true Class Action Lawsuits on the whole seems to be accessed via the US courts. However as Tivo UK is little more than a shell company almost entirely controlled by Tivo Inc the responsibility of the parent US company and its senior staff (some of whom are also directors of Tivo UK) ought to be fairly easy to prove in a US Court.

See www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbys...s-class-action-lawsuit-from-UK-investors.html for an example of a case against a British firm being brought in the US courts.

In the UK civil court system I don't believe we officially have such a thing as a class action law suit but instead have what are known as "test cases" so that other cases in what in the US would be "class action lawsuits" then settle out of court on the basis of the precedent established by the test cases. This is currently ongoing with the four test cases against the News of The World or its parent company Newscorp over the hacking of the mobile phone (cellphone) voice mailboxes of numerous celebrities.

See www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13096021

And for those Virgin groupies here who have desperately tried to claim Virgin are not the party responsible for giving instructions to Tivo for Lifetime Service to our S1 Tivos to be cutoff I would direct you to this article at www.cable.co.uk/news/virgin-media-partner-tivo-to-cut-off-series1-dvrs-800409013/



> *Virgin Media partner TiVo to cut off Series1 DVRs*
> Wednesday, February 16th 2011
> by Staff Writer - [email protected]
> 
> *Virgin Media partner TiVo to cut off Series1 DVRs*
> 
> The company will withdraw its support for the boxes in June.
> TiVo has followed up its deal with Virgin Media by withdrawing support for all of its Series1 boxes in the UK.
> 
> Sky customers were exclusively able to purchase TiVo's first generation of digital video recorders (DVRs), which were manufactured between 2000 and 2002.
> 
> Since then, the equipment has not been sold and new accounts are no longer being activated.
> 
> Having been in operation for a decade, the boxes will be discontinued from June 1st 2011, with TiVo no longer providing them with electronic programme guide data.
> 
> This will reduce the devices to limited or no functionality, although viewers will still be able to access previously recorded content.
> 
> Users have not been billed since last November and will be able to access the service without charge until June 1st.
> 
> Virgin Media unveiled details of its TiVo-powered offering late last year. The set-top box is equipped with one terabyte of storage, capable of holding up to 500 hours of content.


----------



## rondun

Pete77 said:


> the Programme Guide Data To date was now updated to June 2nd and that channel 144's last program was now at 12am on June 3rd (which Tribune still seems to count as being part of June 2nd).


Or midnight GMT?


----------



## Steve_K

unitron said:


> If TiVo actually put this in writing
> 
> "Definition of Lifetime Service. If you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder, the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend of family member. The TiVo service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any others you may purchase."
> 
> do you have class action suits in the UK?


In reverse order

We don't have class actions per se but there have been a few cases where the effect has been the same. _Equitable Life v Hyman _ was a recent case of "representative action" but the £numbers involved were massive. It won't happen in this case even though many of the underlying legal principles are similar.

And yes TiVo really did say that, captured in December 2000 by the rather amusing _Wayback Machine_

_Link_

For some bizarre reason it's been captured as black text on black background but press Cntrl A and scroll down and the words will appear.


----------



## martink0646

Pete77 said:


> And for those Virgin groupies here who have desperately tried to claim Virgin are not the party responsible for giving instructions to Tivo for Lifetime Service to our S1 Tivos to be cutoff I would direct you to this article at www.cable.co.uk/news/virgin-media-partner-tivo-to-cut-off-series1-dvrs-800409013/


Pete,

Where exactly does it say in this quote that Virgin are responsible? You must have pasted a link to the wrong article as the title of this one is "Virgin Media partner *TiVo to cut off Series1 DVRs*" which is the exact opposite to what you are arguing. I know you are disingenuous at the best of times but quoting an article that actually says the opposite to what you are trying to prove strikes me as more than a bit bizarre. Please repost the correct article where it says that Virgin have forced TiVo to cut off the service or admit that you are wrong & once again are portraying your opinions as facts.

I freely admit that you could well be right & that Virgin did ask TiVo to cut off the service, it would make business sense but that does not make it fact.

Do you think that we are stupid enough on this forum to read something written in a forceful manner & accept that as the basis for fact. I think this is what winds people up more than anything about you...that you treat us as idiots who can't think for ourselves & need your guiding hand to see the truth.

So man up Pete, put up or shut up...prove it or admit you were wrong. It's an easy choice, although one that you have NEVER taken on this forum & I expect throughout your life.

Martin


----------



## Steve_K

Yes not the best link Pete but this one is pretty damming

_Virgins press office crow on about their EXCLUSIVE deal_



> . . .Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services . . . in the United Kingdom . . . .


They signed an exclusive deal, they must have known TiVo already had deals in the UK so they're complicit in TiVo reneging on those deals. The ones with us.

Less than innocent imho.


----------



## Pete77

Steve_K said:


> They signed an exclusive deal, they must have known TiVo already had deals in the UK so they're complicit in TiVo reneging on those deals. The ones with us.


Thanks for the useful link Steve_K.

In my view Tivo would have had absolutely no reason to want to cut off S1 Tivo users at this stage and indeed every possible reason to expect flack if they did so (both here in the UK and from worried S1 owners back home in the USA). However Virgin being a press on steamroller large corporate didn't care about Tivo's old UK customers and especially not customers who might in many cases have a Sky box attached to their Tivo and so clearly insisted on the discontinuance of the S1 service as the price of this very large commercial deal. The link you have provided indicates the terms of that deal are secret and I am sure they are secret for a very good reason - namely that the parties involved have something to hide from the outside world.

The timing of the announcement of the discontinuance of the S1 service was almost exactly coincidental with the install of the first Virgin Media Tivo units whilst the 1st June deadline was clearly anticipated to be a date by which Virgin Media could manage to install a new VM Tivo for any S1 Tivo customer living in a Virgin Media cabled area who wanted one.


----------



## Trinitron

Only one question in my mind following the last three posts: Does it matter?


----------



## Pete77

Trinitron said:


> Only one question in my mind following the last three posts: Does it matter?


Of course it matters. Especially in terms of the other currently active thread about people taking legal action against Tivo over the loss of their Lifetime Sub and/or the loss of the continued use of their S1 Tivo boxes.

If it can be proved that Tivo's original concept of Lifetime Service was the natural lifetime of the hardware (which looks like it is good for 20 years or so subject to the odd hard drive replacement which is only like replacing a light bulb in a light in my view) then the fact that the Lifetime Service was artificially cut short to meet the demands of a new commercial partner of Tivo would weigh very heavily with the court.


----------



## Steve_K

And now we know a bit more about Virgins business ethics some might be less keen to do business with their wider group.


----------



## Trinitron

How do we "know a bit more about Virgin's business ethics"? You have dug up an announcement that was made almost 18 months ago that says nothing we didn't already know and Pete77 has yet to come up with any facts to back up his allegations.

It's very entertaining though.


----------



## Steve_K

You and I may have already known that but some here were trying to deny Virgin have a part in the dodgy dealing



> " . . .Please repost the correct article where it says that Virgin have forced TiVo to cut off the service or admit that you are wrong . . . "


----------



## TCM2007

There's nothing in that article which says that. Pete even helpfully posted the whole article - thus arguing against himself.


----------



## Steve_K

TCM, are you seriously still disputing that Virgin are in this up to their necks?

Just read their own press release

Clue: it's in the word exclusive


----------



## unitron

The reason I asked about class action suits (the only real chance the little guy has against big business is in league with a bunch of other little guys) is because of these words--

"...the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder..."


Not "Lifetime means no monthly payments as long as the service is available", but an obligation to provide the service as long as the box is working.


Which, by the way, means if Virgin is the "exclusive" provider of TiVo service in the UK, they're on the hook to provide that lifetime service to the S1s still out there and running. You don't have to live where they have cable buried for them to spend what's necessary to provide a local number for your TiVo to dial and to have guide data available to download from that number.

So if there's a way for S1 Lifetimers to act in unision, time to get busy and burn TiVo, Virgin, et al, a new one.


----------



## Steve_K

unitron said:


> . .Which, by the way, means if Virgin is the "exclusive" provider of TiVo service in the UK, they're on the hook to provide that lifetime service to the S1s still out there and running. . . .So if there's a way for S1 Lifetimers to act in unision, time to get busy and burn TiVo, Virgin, et al, a new one.


 Hadn't thought of that angle.


----------



## TCM2007

Steve_K said:


> TCM, are you seriously still disputing that Virgin are in this up to their necks?
> 
> Just read their own press release
> 
> Clue: it's in the word exclusive


They've negotiated the right to be the exclusive seller of TiVo systems in the UK. A sensible thing to do, so that they can promote TiVo as a USP and not see some FreeSat or Freeview manufacturer piggyback their marketing.

There's nothing in that that says they've small mindedly insisted that the S1 boxes be cut off. They MAY have done that, but there's no evidence to support that proposition.


----------



## TCM2007

unitron said:


> Which, by the way, means if Virgin is the "exclusive" provider of TiVo service in the UK, they're on the hook to provide that lifetime service to the S1s still out there and running. You don't have to live where they have cable buried for them to spend what's necessary to provide a local number for your TiVo to dial and to have guide data available to download from that number.
> 
> So if there's a way for S1 Lifetimers to act in unision, time to get busy and burn TiVo, Virgin, et al, a new one.


Our contract is with TiVo; unless you can prove TiVo have expicitly transferred that contract to Virgin (and I'm not even sure that's possible), we have no claim against Virgin.


----------



## Steve_K

Not so sure (to be fair not so sure t'other way either)

But if you are a publicly listed company _ (link) _ and publicly announce you have an exclusive agreement with another publicly listed company you get oblligations.


----------



## unitron

According to this press release*

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359213&highlight

"Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom ."

I'd say they're obligated to distibute that service to all the lifetime S1 units still running, since TiVo said "...the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder...".

Time to go see what TiVo defined as "the Tivo service", but I doubt they said "use of the software and patents, including handling of guide data if we happen to feel like providing that data, but if we don't, oh well, sucks to be you".

*the link to which Steve_K provided about a page ago

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8519306#post8519306


----------



## JudyB

unitron said:


> According to this press release*
> 
> http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359213&highlight
> 
> "Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom ."
> 
> I'd say they're obligated to distibute that service to all the lifetime S1 units still running, since TiVo said "...the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder...".
> 
> Time to go see what TiVo defined as "the Tivo service", but I doubt they said "use of the software and patents, including handling of guide data if we happen to feel like providing that data, but if we don't, oh well, sucks to be you".
> 
> *the link to which Steve_K provided about a page ago
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8519306#post8519306


Tempting as it is to agree with your conclusions, I don't think that we have enough information to be certain about them.

I am reasonably certain that Virgin and Tivo will have thrashed out the details of exactly what is meant by "Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom" and that their contract/deal will have dealt with any liability for the S1 services explicitly. If so then any legal action would still be against Tivo and of course I would imagine that their agreement will not be made public unless a court rules that it must be made public as part of arguments over liability


----------



## baward

unitron said:


> I'd say they're obligated to distibute that service to all the lifetime S1 units still running, since TiVo said "...the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder..."


IMO - notwithstanding the S1-fan lawyers on the side of the AltEPG project and who might be contributing to this thread (and who know better than me) I feel certain that Virgin's and Tivo's legal team have thought of *everything* that gets them out of any responsibilities they may still have...


----------



## Trinitron

unitron said:


> According to this press release*
> 
> http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1359213&highlight
> 
> "Virgin Media will become the exclusive distributor of TiVo services and technology in the United Kingdom ."
> 
> I'd say they're obligated to distibute that service to all the lifetime S1 units still running, since TiVo said "...the TiVo service is guaranteed for the lifetime of that Recorder


You're just repeating arguments that were made when the agreement between Virgin and TiVo was signed back in 2009. Arguments that have been discussed here ad nauseum since that date.

One possibly important phrase in the press release is "will become". No dates are mentioned. If Virgin have any sense their exclusive rights will commence on June 1, 2011 when TiVo cease direct service in the UK.

The only other thought that comes to mind with this is whether TiVo are a 'distributor' in the sense of the agreement if they supply direct to their own subscribers. We haven't seen the agreements and we probably never will, so we can only speculate (or just make it up as some are wont to do  ).


----------



## unitron

baward said:


> IMO - notwithstanding the S1-fan lawyers on the side of the AltEPG project and who might be contributing to this thread (and who know better than me) I feel certain that Virgin's and Tivo's legal team have thought of *everything* that gets them out of any responsibilities they may still have...


As to whether or not Tivo's legal team are capable of thinking of "everything", I refer you to the pre/post January 2000 definitions of "lifetime".


----------



## TCM2007

It's all a bit convenient to place so much reliance on one phrase in that contract, while dismissing other phrases in the same document which make it clear they CAN stop the service as unenforceable or unreasonable.


----------



## martink0646

Steve_K said:


> You and I may have already known that but some here were trying to deny Virgin have a part in the dodgy dealing


Steve,

Come on, be fair. If you'd have taken my whole quote I did actually say in the next line;

*"I freely admit that you could well be right & that Virgin did ask TiVo to cut off the service, it would make business sense but that does not make it fact."*

Far from denying anything, I am agreeing with you that they probably did insist on it. The but, and it's a big one, is that I don't think there was anything particularly wrong in that.

I would probably feel more hard done by if the AltEPG project didn't exist but speaking as a TAM user I feel I have had bloody good service out of my initial purchase.

For what it's worth, bearing in mind IANAL I think you will probably get a victory in any legal action as it will be easier to offer you £200, insist on a NDA & forget about it. Of course that will depend on the number of lifetime subs that are still downloading on the day that you file your complaint as they will be able to take a snapshot of their total liability from their info. It just depends how big the number of continuing users is.

Of course, that is all pure speculation but it makes sense to me. The real question is would you feel £200 to be a victory & would you accept that? If not, what are you looking for? You should know that before you start down this road as the question will be put to you if your case has ANY merit.

I also agree wholeheartedly with TCM that legally there probably isn't a real case but they will never go in front of a judge/magistrate? They'll either pay you off or ignore it altogether & say good luck on collecting. I used to be in a position where I had unfettered access to ccj records & you would be amazed at how many ccj's major blue chip companies that bill b2c such as BT gather. It's hundreds as they hardly ever bother to contest them, it's cheaper just to pay out WHEN someone tries to enforce.

Martin


----------



## TCM2007

Martin, they are talking about an online claim - in that case you have to state the exact value of your claim up font, and settling out of court is unlikley (if not impossible).


----------



## unitron

martink0646 said:


> Steve,
> 
> Come on, be fair. If you'd have taken my whole quote I did actually say in the next line;
> 
> *"I freely admit that you could well be right & that Virgin did ask TiVo to cut off the service, it would make business sense but that does not make it fact."*
> 
> Far from denying anything, I am agreeing with you that they probably did insist on it. The but, and it's a big one, is that I don't think there was anything particularly wrong in that.
> 
> I would probably feel more hard done by if the AltEPG project didn't exist but speaking as a TAM user I feel I have had bloody good service out of my initial purchase.
> 
> For what it's worth, bearing in mind IANAL I think you will probably get a victory in any legal action as it will be easier to offer you £200, insist on a NDA & forget about it. Of course that will depend on the number of lifetime subs that are still downloading on the day that you file your complaint as they will be able to take a snapshot of their total liability from their info. It just depends how big the number of continuing users is.
> 
> Of course, that is all pure speculation but it makes sense to me. The real question is would you feel £200 to be a victory & would you accept that? If not, what are you looking for? You should know that before you start down this road as the question will be put to you if your case has ANY merit.
> 
> Martin


If they can afford 200 of those things (for which my keyboard here in North Carolina doesn't have the symbol) *for each lifetimed machine still working*, surely they could stick that into a trust fund and use the interest to cover the expense of continuing the guide service.


----------



## alek

unitron said:


> If they can afford 200 of those things (for which my keyboard here in North Carolina doesn't have the symbol)


alt + 0163



Alek


----------



## shwru980r

If Tivo service is cut off, then AltEpg kicks in and makes all the old UK S1 Tivos lifetime units for free. Lifetime S1 Tivos in the US have some value and are sold on Ebay. If Virgin continues to provide the service, then they can charge a fee for the non lifetime Tivos. It seems like Virgin is creating more competition for themselves by turning off the service. I would think a cottage industry would be spawned to resurrect any unused S1 Tivo in the UK, if Virgin discontinues service.


----------



## mikerr

unitron said:


> If they can afford £200 *for each lifetimed machine still working*, surely they could stick that into a trust fund and use the interest to cover the expense of continuing the guide service.


*Commercial * cost of licencing/redistribution an EPG is much larger than you may imagine - around £10k a month for a 14 day EPG?)
especially as there is plenty of FREE (but only for non-commercial use) data out there.


----------



## unitron

mikerr said:


> *Commercial * cost of licencing/redistribution an EPG is much larger than you may imagine - around £10k a month for a 14 day EPG?)
> especially as there is plenty of FREE (but only for non-commercial use) data out there.


TMS really have a monopoly on a gold mine, don't they?


----------



## sjp

TCM2007 said:


> Martin, they are talking about an online claim - in that case you have to state the exact value of your claim up font, and settling out of court is unlikley (if not impossible).


possibly not "out of court" in the strictest meaining but housebuilders Wimpy did bottle out of a claim I had against them a few days before the court case was due to be heard.


----------



## martink0646

TCM2007 said:


> Martin, they are talking about an online claim - in that case you have to state the exact value of your claim up font, and settling out of court is unlikley (if not impossible).


Thanks for putting me straight. That still leaves Steve to answer the question about how much he feels the claim is worth to him (although he understandably may not post that if he feels it is giving away the info too early).

I hope he succeeds because I always like to see the little guy win. Not that I believe TiVo/Virgin are guilty of anything other than standard business practice. I just like the little guy/underdog to win, I am a Brit after all

Martin


----------



## Steve_K

IF IF IF I went for a claim and IF I went for small claims court I'd claim for £100

Couldn't be @rsed really were it not for TiVo just getting away with it and sending me repeat wind up messages

IF my plan of buying lottery tickets in increasing numbers each time I get that system message yields a jackpot (yeah as if) then I'll claim the full £598 + costs and go for an injunction


----------



## Pete77

I just came across this little story dated 6th January 2011 showing that Tribune Media Service has been given a contract to provide the Metadata for the new Virgin UK Tivo. This is even though I have seen posts elsewhere claiming that Virgin will be manipulating all of its EPG data in house.

Given that Virgin's channel package also contains all the main Sky channels and that the S1 EPG merely involves alternate channel number mappings for other tv platforms (which TMS clearly holds for other clients) this does leave me wondering whether or not for those of us who get hold of our Tivo data via network card over the internet an EPG service may not still turn out to be available after June 1st as the relevant Metadata will surely still be passed from TMS to Tivo and then processed and made available on Tivo's servers.

See www.broadbandtvnews.com/2011/01/06/tribune-to-send-data-to-virgin's-tivo/



> *Virgin Media will use Tribune Media Services to provide the metadata that will help run its newly launched TiVo on demand platform.*
> 
> *Chicago-based Tribune, which also has a London operation, will provide Virgin with entertainment content including linear TV schedules, programme and video-on-demand metadata, celebrity metadata and images. The agreement also includes TMS TV Showcards that offer show synopses, logos, group and individual character images. The information will be tied together through unique TMS Unique IDs.
> 
> "We are very excited to support the launch of the innovative user experience to be offered by Virgin Media," said Ken Carter, TMS vice president and managing director, International. "They appreciate that to provide the ultimate entertainment search and discovery experience, quality entertainment metadata and images are essential. This is an important validation of TMS' continued expansion into international markets."
> *
> Ian Mecklenburgh, director of consumer platforms, at Virgin Media added, "For the first time, UK viewers are enjoying a truly personalised viewing experience and getting the most out of great online, on demand and live TV content, all in one place. We're really excited to bring our customers what is just the first of successive generations of transformational digital entertainment services and our agreement with TMS will help them find exactly what they want and discover even more."
> 
> TMS metadata is already used in other TiVo-based operations as well as by Google, Comcast, Multichoice, IMDb and Zon Multimedia.


----------



## TCM2007

Old post, surprised you missed it.

I'd say it suggests the very opposite of what you take from it. The EPG is bought by Virgin from Tribune, so it's not TiVo's to give to us even if they wanted to.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> I'd say it suggests the very opposite of what you take from it. The EPG is bought by Virgin from Tribune, so it's not TiVo's to give to us even if they wanted to.


However I have seen various other posts on this forum that have suggested Virgin produced its own EPG data for its Tivo and that it has nothing to do with Tribune Media Services.

However Virgin Media's use of TMS data is also confirmed by a more recent post by an alleged Virgin Media staff member at http://community.virginmedia.com/t5...ave-the-guide-filters-back/td-p/393197/page/2

My point is that since Virgin Media will still be supplying UK EPG data to Tivo it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that an updated EPG feed will still be available for those of us collecting it directly via a network card without using the 0808 dial up number. Also if Tribune is still supplying UK EPG data then how much can Tivo be saving by not maintaining the rights to broadcast the processed data to the Tivo S1 users. So there can be no explanation in relation to the S1 users being cut off for EPG servicing other than Virgin Media's curmudgeonly insistence on a complete UK Tivo exclusive even in respect of very old Tivo machines no longer available for sale.:down::down::down:


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> My point is that since Virgin Media will still be supplying UK EPG data to Tivo it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that an updated EPG feed will still be available for those of us collecting it directly via a network card without using the 0808 dial up number.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model

Try to get beyond "denial".



> Also if Tribune is still supplying UK EPG data then how much can Tivo be saving by not maintaining the rights to broadcast the processed data to the Tivo S1 users.


However much Tribune charged them for it, plus the cost of the freephone calls. Not zero.



> So there can be no explanation in relation to the S1 users being cut off for EPG servicing other than Virgin Media's curmudgeonly insistence on a complete UK Tivo exclusive even in respect of very old Tivo machines no longer available for sale.:down::down::down:


For someone with a good education, your basic logic skills are poor.


----------



## Automan

Just been browsing the area on the AltEPG and an interesting question...

Come June 1st when your box tries for a download will it get the "Account Closed" status set?

If it does, it will record no more from that point....

Or will the calls just fail or something else?

Place your bets 

Countdown To End Of UK Tivo Service

Automan.


----------



## spitfires

I'm going with "Account Closed" = brick 

(Mind you I'm unplugging it from the network/dial-up on the 31st just in case so I won't actually know the answer!)


----------



## Pete77

spitfires said:


> I'm going with "Account Closed" = brick


So far as I am aware an Account Closed Tivo can still dial the Tivo server to check its status (since its account can be opened again by paying Tivo a subscription) but it checks less often than a Tivo with a Status 4 or 5 Account. However it can be still forced manually to connect to make a call at any time.

With that being so surely the AltEPG's servers will have the intelligence to change the status of an Account Closed S1 Tivo box that contacts them to either Status 4 or 5?

Or is there some good reason why the AltEPG can't emulate this part of the daily call process to Tivo's servers? Speaking of which will the AltEPG update the Tivo's clock to the correct time each time it dials up as Tivo's servers have always doen?


----------



## TCM2007

Clock - yes.

Status - I'm sure that will be fine.

I'd like to think that TiVo would set everyone to lifetime and download some dummy guide data for 2020 so the no data nag screen doesn't appear. But they probably won't.


----------



## spitfires

^ yes that would be a nice gesture on their part wouldn't it. 
.


----------



## Automan

If it goes to Account Closed all the EPG and everything vanishes.

I found this out when I was trying to use the ALTEpg and had no active account.

It needs another successful main call (not test call) to reinstate all Tivo's functions.

I guess much the same as it would do to monthly customers who stopped paying their bill.

Automan.


----------



## unitron

spitfires said:


> I'm going with "Account Closed" = brick
> 
> (Mind you I'm unplugging it from the network/dial-up on the 31st just in case so I won't actually know the answer!)


Discontinuing the service is one thing, deliberately bricking it on the way out the door is quite something else and may be actionable legally.


----------



## Furball

Not sure if its been mentioned yet or not but our dial up TiVo has got guide data well past the 1st of June currently 

It starts to get flakey from the 10th June but thats like 2 1/2 weeks into the future and thats fairly normal, so it looks like I'll have a good two weeks - three weeks of guide data as long as it doesnt get bricked

Has anyone rang and asked TiVo what they will do ?? rather than just speculate lets get it from the horses mouth eh :up: where's TiVopony etc 

Furball


----------



## AMc

Furball said:


> Has anyone rang and asked TiVo what they will do ?? rather than just speculate lets get it from the horses mouth eh :up: where's TiVopony etc


Good question, they binned their phone support a few months ago - [email protected] is the email address to use.

I've just sent this



> Hi,
> 
> I've been getting system messages about the end of the service on the 1st of June.
> Can you confirm what will happen to the box at that point and what functions will remain usable?
> 
> Will the account be marked as closed which disables recording or will the daily call fail from the 1st onwards?
> 
> I have many, many recordings still to watch and want to keep Tivo to make manual recordings and I'd like some assurance that it won't be "bricked" by its final successful call.
> 
> I remain disappointed that you are tunring off the service when there is no alternative unless you are lucky enough to live in a Virgin cable area.
> 
> Thanks


And got the standard auto response - lets see if there is anything else on Wednesday.


> If you are contacting TiVo regarding a technical support question, an agent will respond to your inquiry within 2 business days.
> 
> If you are contacting TiVo with questions about the future of your Series1 service in the UK, please visit tivo.com/UKSeries1<http://www.tivo.com/UKSeries1> for information.
> 
> If you are interested in taking advantage of the special offer that Virgin Media is extending to current UK Series1 subscribers who are in the Virgin Media service area, please go to virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade<http://www.virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade>.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> TiVo Customer Support


----------



## Pete77

Furball said:


> Has anyone rang and asked TiVo what they will do ?? rather than just speculate lets get it from the horses mouth eh :up: where's TiVopony etc.


I think TivoPony and TivoJerry etc must have all received communications from a certain Mr Joshua Danovitz telling them that in no circumstances are they to comment in the forums on this matter.

Ever since the announcement to terminate the service was made Mr in February Mr Danovitz has made just one flowery Tivo blog post (see http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/#comments) saying how Tivo was going to ensure Virgin reached out to us over the new service only to then runaway and hide and refuse to respond to any further emails to him on the subject.

Their combined corporate discourtesy in not having a standard polite response to send back to anyone who emails Tivo senior staff about this issue has been quite astounding.

But then of course Americans tend to only do positivity well and often tend to run away from the truth when it is nasty or negative.


----------



## Trinitron

Pete77 said:


> But then of course Americans tend to only do positivity well and often tend to run away from the truth when it is nasty or negative.


No xenophobia in that statement, eh! I wonder what impression the "Americans" get of Brits from reading your posts?

(You do know this is an American-run web forum? )


----------



## healeydave

Furball said:


> Has anyone rang and asked TiVo what they will do ?? rather than just speculate lets get it from the horses mouth eh :up: where's TiVopony etc
> 
> Furball


Yes, but frustratingly, under NDA, I can't comment which is really annoying since some of the info I was given, I believe would benefit both Tivo and the end users.


----------



## Pete77

I notice that there is a Virgin Media Tivo Blog in conjunction with Techradar on the supposed marvels of the new Virgin Tivo at http://virgintivo.blogspot.com/2011/03/sir-richard-branson-believes-that-tivo.html and yet I so far seem to be the only person to have commented asking Sir Richard why the launch of the Virgin Tivo requires loyal Series One Tivo customers to have their existing Tivo Lifetime service prematurely cut off, especially when 50% of us cannot even upgrade to the new Virgin Media product as we do not in the Virgin Media cable tv area.

Some of you might also like to comment there although to do so you will need to log in to your Google account and initially the Blog will appear to refuse to accept your comment but if you then select the Preview option and ask to publish your comments from there they will be published on the page.

You might also want to pose this question to Sir Richard in the related blog post about Sir Richard's alleged enthusiasm for the new Virgin Tivo at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/03/virgin...ve-for-tivo-in-tech-radar-exclusive/#comments So far only four of you have taken the trouble to post your comments on that Tivo Blog page even though over 200 of you did respond to the original Tivo Blog article about the termination of Series One Tivo service by Virgin Media Vice President of International services, Joshua Danovitz.


----------



## AMc

healeydave said:


> Yes, but frustratingly, under NDA, I can't comment which is really annoying since some of the info I was given, I believe would benefit both Tivo and the end users.


You terrible tease!


----------



## Pete77

healeydave said:


> Yes, but frustratingly, under NDA, I can't comment which is really annoying since some of the info I was given, I believe would benefit both Tivo and the end users.


Surely you should take a leaf out of the book of the Scottish newspapers and say to hell with the NDA Dave?

Also surely Tivo can't afford to sue you for breaching the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) as that would merely create far more adverse publicity about something that they are trying so hard not to talk about.

If you feel you can't say anything under your own name surely you could at least leak the contents of the NDA to someone else who will publish it under their name.

Also I expect if you check the terms of the NDA properly you will find there is a clause that says you aren't even allowed to tell other people that an NDA is in place on this matter.:down::down::down:

But you could always nip down to Tesco and buy a new unregistered SIM card for cash, create a new anonymous twitter account and then tweet the terms of the NDA. Or as Twitter is fairly useless perhaps you could start an anonymous Facebook page on the subject instead.


----------



## LarryDavid

healeydave said:


> Yes, but frustratingly, under NDA, I can't comment which is really annoying since some of the info I was given, I believe would benefit both Tivo and the end users.


Could you say we tied you up and tortured it out of you?


----------



## orangeboy

Trinitron said:


> No xenophobia in that statement, eh! I wonder what impression the "Americans" get of Brits from reading your posts?
> 
> (You do know this is an American-run web forum? )


I like _most_ of what you Brits post, but run when they get nasty or negative.


----------



## Pete77

orangeboy said:


> I like _most_ of what you Brits post, but run when they get nasty or negative.


I guess that must be the excuse of Tivo staff members for refusing to comment any further on why the contracted Lifetime Service to the Series w UK Tivo units is being reneged on by the company.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I notice that there is a Virgin Media Tivo Blog in conjunction with Techradar


Er, that's an unofficial Blogspot blog run by a fan, which has lifted an interview we ran on TechRadar.

Don't waste your electrons thinking it's a direct line to Branson!


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Don't waste your electrons thinking it's a direct line to Branson!


A comment at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/03/virgin-...sive/#comments would seem to provide a more direct line opportunity to provide feedback on Richard Branson's comments and the withdrawal of the S1 Lifetime Service to Tivo itself.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> A comment at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/03/virgin-...sive/#comments would seem to provide a more direct line opportunity to provide feedback on Richard Branson's comments and the withdrawal of the S1 Lifetime Service to Tivo itself.


Error 404 - Not Found


----------



## TCM2007

BTW Pete, if you post comments like this:



> What a spineless corporate creap Joshua Danowitz clearly is.





> Joshua Danovitz is quite clearly not a human being at all but only a PR spinning corporate clone of the very worst possible kind.


Don't be surprised if you don't get a reply.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Don't be surprised if you don't get a reply.


I made those comments secure in the knowledge that Tivo were universally not responding to all customer feedback on this issue.

And Generalissimo Danovitz has already asked for it with all the rubbish previous messages over which he has presided about reaching out to people when all they are doing is trying to wriggle out of the previous contractual commitments to Lifetime Service customers. What I especially dislike about MBAs is that even if they were about to have you executed in five minutes time they would still try to put a positive corporate spin on how you will benefit from a fast and efficient service!


----------



## TCM2007

Minor detail, Joshua Danovitz isn't an MBA.

Still don't let facts stand in the way of an abusive rant, eh?

Few (any) public companies would get involved in a public debate about their management decisions. Your language in the comments I quoted illustrates why very nicely.


----------



## orangeboy

Pete77 said:


> orangeboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like _most_ of what you Brits post, but run when they get nasty or negative.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that must be the excuse of Tivo staff members for refusing to comment any further on why the contracted Lifetime Service to the Series w UK Tivo units is being reneged on by the company.
Click to expand...

And your posts would not fit into the "most" category.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Minor detail, Joshua Danovitz isn't an MBA.


Interesting that he has a degree in political science. So he can't say that he didn't appreciate the likely political risks of what he was doing with the existing UK Tivo S1 owner constituency by allowing Virgin to disenfranchise them:down::down::down:

http://investing.businessweek.com/r...4274&previousTitle=Rapid Mobile Media Limited

Anyhow outsourcing is a well known favourite predilection of MBAs so judging from his extensive outsourcing experience whilst in Japan I think my point about his personality type still stands even if he doesn't actually hold the formal qualification normally most favoured before engaging in this kind of business activity.

He seems to be about as far away from the hard core group of techies involved in originally setting up the Tivo business as it is possible to get. And clearly someone actively engaged in the world of business outsourcing is not likely to value old fashioned concepts such as loyalty to a company's most longstanding customers.

How long I wonder before he outsources most of US Tivo's customer support and software development jobs to India or China. Whilst I had already formed a bad impression from the man for not being prepared to engaged with us to justify his decision having read his CV I am now utterly confident that he will not even dein to give us the time of day or even be prepared to entertain the notion that it was reckless to agree to terminate the Lifetime Service of some of Tivo's oldest customers.

Whilst it is true that even without his CV I had already created in my mind a picture of a stereotypical unfeeling corporate executive concerned only with balance sheets and profit I have to say that having now read his CV the man seems to be at least twice as bad as I was originally expecting, especially for the originally quirky and touchy feely world of Tivo Inc.



> *EXECUTIVE PROFILE*
> Joshua Danovitz Return to Rapid Mobile Media Limited
> Vice President and General Manager of International, TiVo Inc.
> *
> Joshua Danovitz has been Vice President and General Manager of International of TiVo Inc., since October 3, 2007. Mr. Danovitz has an extensive experience negotiating partnerships between the US and Japan. During his 6 years living in Japan, Mr. Danovitz served as a Vice President of LINC Computer Japan, where he played an integral role in the acquisition by Electronic Data Systems (EDS). LINC was later acquired by Electronic Data Systems (EDS), where Mr. Danovitz led sales efforts and later opened the Osaka branch office. *While with EDS Japan, he was in charge of the team delivering outsourcing services to multinational customers, including: Citibank, Proctor & Gamble, Morgan Stanley, ABN Amro, Eli Lilly, AT Kearney, Microsoft, and Oracle. Transferring back to the US with EDS, Mr. Danovitz assumed the executive role for the fully outsourced flag ship account, Del Monte Foods, where he led a team of more than 85 people.* After leaving EDS, Mr. Danovitz held executive business development roles at E-Color (acquired by LightSurf) and Dejima (acquired by Sybase). Prior to TiVo, Mr. Danovitz served as Vice President at Global Alliance Partners(GAP), an international consulting firm that assists companies entering new markets between the U.S. and Asia. *Additionally, Mr. Danovitz continues to hold advisory positions at Global Alliance Partners, and ClairVoyante. He serves as a Member of Advisory Board of Global Alliance Partners, Inc.* Mr. Danovitz studied degrees in both political science and Japanese, in which he is fluent, from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and studied at Sophia University in Tokyo, Japan.


----------



## unitron

Pete77 said:


> Interesting that he has a degree in political science. So he can't say that he didn't appreciate the likely political risks of what he was doing with the existing UK Tivo S1 owner constituency by allowing Virgin to disenfranchise them:down::down::down:
> 
> http://investing.businessweek.com/r...4274&previousTitle=Rapid Mobile Media Limited
> 
> Anyhow outsourcing is a well known favourite predilection of MBAs so judging from his extensive outsourcing experience whilst in Japan I think my point about his personality type still stands even if he doesn't actually hold the formal qualification normally most favoured before engaging in this kind of business activity.
> 
> He seems to be about as far away from the hard core group of techies involved in originally setting up the Tivo business as it is possible to get. And clearly someone familiar with the world of outsourcing is not likely to value old fashioned concepts such as loyalty to a company's most longstanding customers.


From that businessweek link:

"Mr. Danovitz studied degrees in both political science and Japanese, in which he is fluent, from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and studied at Sophia University in Tokyo, Japan."

That's, to my U.S.'ian ear, is an odd way to phrase it. Perhaps it was written in the UK, and someone can translate for me, but "studied degrees" doesn't sound exactly the same as "received degrees" or "graduated", but more like "majored in".


----------



## Pete77

unitron said:


> That's, to my U.S.'ian ear, is an odd way to phrase it. Perhaps it was written in the UK, and someone can translate for me, but "studied degrees" doesn't sound exactly the same as "received degrees" or "graduated", but more like "majored in".


Yes I agree that does seem odd as the home page of www.businessweek.com where this CV is found reads as distinctly all American in tone with the headline:-



> For B-School Grads, Low-Key Send-Off
> For B-School Grads, Low-Key Send-Off
> 
> Corporate bigwigs addressing the B-school class of 2011 are tempering their optimism


Either way Mr Danovitz's CV reads more like that of a professional cost cutter and business manager rather than that of an enthusiast for the development of leading edge technology. So a very different kind of CV from that of Tivo founder Mike Ramsay even though admittedly Mr Ramsay had previously mainly worked for a large company (HP).

Even so surely a responsible way for Danovitz to behave would have been to have outsourced ongoing financial liability for the cost of maintaining data to the Series 1 UK customers from Tribune Media Services to Virgin as part of the price of the deal. Especially given that Virgin had to have a contract with Tribune Media Services Europe anyway in order to provide the data feed for their own Virgin Media Tivo.

I am sure that there must be people on the Tivo board who are not at all happy with the deal Mr Danovitz struck with Virgin Media in respect of cutting off the TMS EPG feed to existing Lifetime UK Series One customers but by the time they became aware of it unfortunately it was too late as Mr Danovitz had presumably already closed the deal with Virgin.

My suspicion is that nothing can now change unless Virgin agree to relinquish their total UK exclusivity on the Tivo product brand after a certain date in relation to the old Tivo S1 boxes and are willing to allow them go to go on receiving data after June 1st and/or to also pick up what I am sure would be the very small additional charge by TMS for continuing to also provide EPG data to the S1 machines in addition to the UK Tivo Premiere machines (aka the Virgin Tivo). So I suspect it is Richard Branson and Neil Berkett (Virgin Media's CEO) rather than Joushua Danovitz who it is now more profitable to target by asking them why S1 Tivo customers outside Virgin Media land cannot at least go on getting S1 Tivo service until such time as Virgin has extended its network to cover most of the rest of the UK.


----------



## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Error 404 - Not Found


Try http://blog.tivo.com/2011/03/virgin...ve-for-tivo-in-tech-radar-exclusive/#comments

While people are there they might also like to add some comments to the Tivo blog article from April 6th 2011 about Tivo customers who for whatever reasons have become parted from their Tivo over the years and who now desperately miss their old friend.

The opportunity to comment that Tivo plans to forcibly part several thousand UK customers not living in the Virgin Media cabled area of the UK from their beloved Tivos on June 1st with no prospect of a replacement Virgin Tivo in sight in these areas seems fairly obvious.

See http://blog.tivo.com/2011/04/tivo-love-letter-revealed/ for this article on the Tivo Blog.


----------



## unitron

Pete77 said:


> Try http://blog.tivo.com/2011/03/virgin...ve-for-tivo-in-tech-radar-exclusive/#comments
> 
> ...


From that massive suckup to Branson--

"As more and more customers get the next-generation set top box, Virgin Media will begin the push for the new equipment, which has already wowed critics with its feature set, including a backwards EPG, searchable content and, crucially, the famous TiVo suggestion functionality."

What, pray tell, is a 'backwards EPG', and is it a strictly English thing?


----------



## Pete77

unitron said:


> What, pray tell, is a 'backwards EPG', and is it a strictly English thing?


It is one that lets you go back 24 hours or more to view programs already shown and so now in the past but that still allows you to schedule future Season Passes etc for the next program in the series and/or download them off the Virgin catch up tv website. Sky does not let you go back beyond the current time of day in their EPG as well as their EPG being restricted to only a miserable 7 days of EPG data.

So a Backwards EPG is really an Advanced EPG that has more features than Sky's EPG does.

Oh and shouldn't you be in bed by now or do you work at very odd hours or not require sleep?.


----------



## unitron

Pete77 said:


> ...
> 
> Oh and shouldn't you be in bed by now or do you work at very odd hours or not require sleep?.


As a result of a lifetime of chronic insomnia and a number of years of having worked odd hours (mostly as a radio announcer), I now have hopelessly scrambled circadian rhythms, although I suspect that if the planet would adjust its rotation to provide a 30 hour day I could stabilize on 10 asleep, 20 awake.


----------



## AMc

unitron said:


> What, pray tell, is a 'backwards EPG', and is it a strictly English thing?


If you scroll back before the current time and the programme is available in "catch up TV" on Virgin Media then you can play it as if it were live.
So you don't have to go into a separate interface to find out if the particular programme is available.

http://tivo.virginmedia.com/ then choose the Search & browser (can't link direct to it).



> Travel back in time
> We know what it's like to miss your favourite show. If you've forgotten to record it, relax. Your TiVo box lets you scroll back in time using your TV Guide and watch any programme from the last 7 days that displays a Catch Up TV symbol. That includes all your favourites on ITV, Channel 4 and Five.


----------



## Pete77

I have just posted this Comment on the Tivo Love Letter Blog page at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/04/tivo-love-letter-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-7420

Let us see if they actually allow its publication as its currently pending approval.



> Dear Tivo,
> 
> I and all your other loyal British Series 1 users have been involved in a passionate love affair with you for the last 10 years that we thought would never end and that the day would never dawn when we could no longer caress the curved body of your remote or gaze in awe for hours at the silver shiny front of your beautiful body.
> 
> So you can imagine our hurt and pain when we found out that you had got a new British lover called Virgin and that Virgin is such a possessive lover that he has told you that you must never talk again to any of your old British lovers and instead you must seek divorce from all of us on June 1st unless your old lovers agree to sign a contract of lifetime slavery to Virgin. This is a contract Virgin is only prepared to sign with those of us who already live on his own lands and estates and for the 50% of us who do not live on Virgin's estates your new boyfriend has demanded that your old lovers should be cut off from contact with you for ever more!


----------



## unitron

Pete77 said:


> I have just posted this Comment on the Tivo Love Letter Blog page at http://blog.tivo.com/2011/04/tivo-love-letter-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-7420
> 
> Let us see if they actually allow its publication as its currently pending approval.


Well played, sir, well played.


----------



## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> I am sure that there must be people on the Tivo board who are not at all happy with the deal Mr Danovitz struck with Virgin Media in respect of cutting off the TMS EPG feed to existing Lifetime UK Series One customers but by the time they became aware of it unfortunately it was too late as Mr Danovitz had presumably already closed the deal with Virgin.


Why are you "sure" about that? No less than three unfounded assumptions in that paragraph. You live in a complete fantasy world, where possibilities that have just occurred to you become facts, just because you have thought of them.

And for heaven's sake learn to use some punctuation. Any statement you make in the second half of a paragraph requires you to re-read it two or three times just to make sense of what you are saying amid the virtually infinite sentences.


----------



## Trinitron

Pete77 said:


> I and all your other loyal British Series 1 users


Please don't speak for me. Ever.


----------



## orangeboy

TCM2007 said:


> Why are you "sure" about that? No less than three unfounded assumptions in that paragraph. You live in a complete fantasy world, where possibilities that have just occurred to you become facts, just because you have thought of them...


And I was curious where this statistic is reported:



Pete77 said:


> ...The opportunity to comment that Tivo plans to forcibly part *several thousand UK customers* not living in the Virgin Media cabled area of the UK from their beloved Tivos on June 1st with no prospect of a replacement Virgin Tivo in sight in these areas seems fairly obvious...


----------



## ColinYounger

Fresh Hyperbole!

Fresh Hyperbole!

Get Yer Fresh Hyperbole Here!


----------



## Furball

AMc said:


> Good question, they binned their phone support a few months ago - [email protected] is the email address to use.
> 
> I've just sent this
> 
> And got the standard auto response - lets see if there is anything else on Wednesday.


Cough......well its Friday now  so how did the two day responce go then 

I'm not a betting person but .......... 

Furball


----------



## AMc

I heard nothing and followed up with another email today.

The auto response says this so I suspect they're simply not going to respond to any queries about the end of the service.


> If you are contacting TiVo with questions about the future of your Series1 service in the UK, please visit tivo.com/UKSeries1<http://www.tivo.com/UKSeries1> for information.


----------



## PhilG

AMc said:


> I heard nothing and followed up with another email today.
> 
> The auto response says this so I suspect they're simply not going to respond to any queries about the end of the service.


So far as I know NOBODY has had a SINGLE response from ANY of the channels open to us

And when all's said and done, this is what has p***ed me off the most

I really would have appreciated SOMETHING

Being ignored is not a good way to be treated :down::down::down:


----------



## Furball

I think thats one of the major gripes I've got with them, even if someone came along and said sorry folks but we've got to turn the EPG off we understand it may dissappoint some but it was a business decision with Beardy and all Series1 TiVo's will have account closed applied after the 31st May and all Series1 TiVo's will cease to function. Alternatively it would be nice for them to say, the EPG will be shut down and TiVo will release the boxes for manual recording and as a thank you for sticking with it for so long there will be a software update allowing you all to adjust the clock manually.

Chances of option two happening ????

But just something would have been nice even if it had been a "so long and thanks for all the fish"  its the whole we're not going to say a word thing that is such a shame.

Furball


----------



## unitron

Furball said:


> ...
> But just something would have been nice even if it had been a "so long and thanks for all the fish"  its the whole we're not going to say a word thing that is such a shame.
> 
> Furball


At this point I think the TiVoCorpSpeak to English translator app says that silence = "So long, suckers!"


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## nilling

Mid June and I'm still getting message of channels being moved/deleted. EPG still there. Has anything happened?


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## Pete77

nilling said:


> Mid June and I'm still getting message of channels being moved/deleted. EPG still there. Has anything happened?


That surely means that you must be getting your Tivo EPG updates via a network card or have entered one of the two recently quoted (over in the www.tivoland.com discussion forum) 0845 or 020 dialup numbers in your Dial Prefix field as EPG updates haven't been available on the standard 0808 Dialup number since Monday 13th June.


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## einstein

Pete77 said:


> That surely means that you must be getting your Tivo EPG updates via a network card or have entered one of the two recently quoted (over in the www.tivoland.com discussion forum) 0845 or 020 dialup numbers in your Dial Prefix field as EPG updates haven't been available on the standard 0808 Dialup number since Monday 13th June.


I still have a few TiVos on the old EPG, and via Network, and obtaining guide data, but I think the Guide Data is only up to the 25th June 2011, and then there is nothing.

not moved them to AltEpg yet.


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## Pete77

einstein said:


> I still have a few TiVos on the old EPG, and via Network, and obtaining guide data, but I think the Guide Data is only up to the 25th June 2011, and then there is nothing.


No the EPG runs until 5th July for some of the minor channels like Challenge Tv and CBS Action. 25th June is the current end date for BBC One and other BBC channels but should be extended by a further week when your Tivo makes its call on Saturday or Sunday. That is unless Tivo cuts off all EPG updates completely before we get to this Saturday or Sunday.......................

What is the Programme Guide Data To date currently shown on each of your Tivos in the System Information screen?


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## blindlemon

Pete77 said:


> What is the Programme Guide Data To date currently shown on each of your Tivos in the System Information screen?


My networked TiVo made a call yesterday and now has data to the 8th July :up:

I've been out of the loop but I'm guessing network access still works because Tribune are providing data to the VM boxes...?


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## Pete77

blindlemon said:


> I've been out of the loop but I'm guessing network access still works because Tribune are providing data to the VM boxes...?


Steve,

Its good to know you are still out there somewhere and still using a Tivo.

The current state of play is that Tivo made it impossible to Connect through the built in 0808 dial up number in the Tivo software on Monday 13th June even though the number is still answered and has modem tone.

However since then people with dial up only Tivos have been calling alternative 020 and 0845 UUNet Pop numbers and still managing to retrieve EPG data even though those UUNet numbers only allow Connection on some calls even though the numbers are always answered with modem tone.

Network card calls are so far so completely unimpeded and are working as before with a full 3 weeks worth (on the same channels as normal) of EPG data being provided. There are various fairly obvious steps Tivo could have taken to cut us all off on June 2nd but so far they haven't done this.

As you rightly say Tivo still have a contract with Tribune Media Services to receive UK EPG data and related Metadata for the purpose of servicing the UK Virgin Tivo Premiere/S4 machines. It would appear that the data feed TMS supplies covers all UK channels that TMS currently collects EPG data for and Tivo's servers then just automatically process the data in to the required files for both an S1 Tivo and a Virgin Media S4 Tivo. Or may be the EPG data files retrieved from the Tivo servers are even the same data files for an S1 UK Tivo and an S4 Virgin Media UK Tivo.

Dave at Tivoland has signed an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) with Tivo and knows exactly what their reasons for shutting down the service are (but can't tell the rest of us) and on the back of that has spierheaded the www.altepg.com project and revamped his own website to support this and provide a forum for it. From things Dave has said he quite clearly expects Tivo to totally cut off all remaining EPG access by the UK S1 machines shortly even though it has not happened so far.

The AltEPG is now working after a fashion but currently only has 7 days of EPG data and more importantly only has one dialup line and is awaiting expansion of this to at least four lines but has been hampered by EXA Network's telecoms supplier in this regard. It is therefore fortunate that the Tivo EPG has had an unexpected last minute reprieve for all network card users and for any dialup users prepared to enter an 020 or 0845 number in to their Dial Prefix code.

I hope all is well with you. As you can see I haven't changed and am still as long winded as ever.


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## TCM2007

Pete77 said:


> As you rightly say Tivo still have a contract with Tribune Media Services to receive UK EPG data and related Metadata for the purpose of servicing the UK Virgin Tivo Premiere/S4 machines. .


Point of pedantry, the contract has been announced by Tribune and Virgin as being between them directly.


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## Pete77

TCM2007 said:


> Point of pedantry, the contract has been announced by Tribune and Virgin as being between them directly.


Which in a nutshell is I suppose the reason why those who do not have a Virgin Media S4 Tivo are no longer supposed to be able to access the UK TMS EPG.

It would be interesting to know when and if Tivo's contract with TMS to receive UK EPG data ended...............


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## Trinitron

There could well be a changeover period to ensure no loss of data, where two feeds are in place.


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## Pete77

Trinitron said:


> There could well be a changeover period to ensure no loss of data, where two feeds are in place.


But there might be only one feed from TMS that is then processed in Alviso to provided two different feeds for UK Tivo customers.


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## TCM2007

There might only be one feed from TiVo. TiVo could have designed the feed for S4s to be backwards compatible with S1s; indeed there's a large incentive for them to do so. While I doubt there is only one server, the processing of the Tribune data may only be done once.

The US and UK (old) data are certainly on separate servers, or at least on separate IP addresses.


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## Trinitron

Pete77 said:


> But there might be only one feed from TMS that is then processed in Alviso to provided two different feeds for UK Tivo customers.


There might. We don't know, that's the point. It has to be more than just a matter of Tribune data as the daily call's first check is for account status against the TiVo database. Do we know how VM TiVo's handle account status?


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## Pete77

This is just to point all those of you who subscribed to this thread to my new thread about Virgin Media's Tivo stall on the concourse of Victoria station that will be there till the end of this week (till Friday July 29th).

It is on the Southern concourse area of the station just in front of the Gatwick Express platforms.

Those of you who travel through Victoria station or even those of you who just work in Central London may fancy the chance to go along to Victoria station and give them your views on the non availability of the virgin Tivo to 50% of UK homes and/or its excessively high ongoing monthly subscription cost.

See my post at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=473381 for more information.


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