# TWC won't provide CableCards to Series 3 owners?



## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

According to TWC Customer Service, Time Warner of Raleigh (at least) will not be providing cable cards for or installing them for Tivo Series 3 owners when the box comes out. I don't beleive this is true or legal...my feeling is that customer service is ignorant as usual. However, multiple people on the AVSForum have sent emails to them asking about this and received the same "We won't do it" response. The Raleigh Telecommunications Commission also claims that cable operators are not required to provide the cards for anything they don't want to...again, I think ignorance prevails, but it is worisome nonetheless.

Here's the Digg article


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## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

I think it basically just boils down to ignorance/stupidity.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

maharg18 said:


> I think it basically just boils down to ignorance/stupidity.


You're probably right, I hope you are at least I do find it odd that there seems to be no online documents that show what exactly cable operators are required to provide as far as cable cards go. I have searched the FCC's terrible website and have not come up with anything clear about it.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

But mix in the articles that Time Warner is going to a different type of transmission method... that is incompatible with the cable-card technology right now.....

It is very possible.

I would expect that when the Tivo Series 3... there are going to be more problems with the cable-card aspect of it, then with the unit it self (getting the cable-cos to give you 1 let alone 2 cards, installation fees, usage fees, ect) (regardless of what is "legal" or not).

That is one cog of the puzzle that TiVo, Inc. has no control over.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

giiiiif said:


> I do find it odd that there seems to be no online documents that show what exactly cable operators are required to provide as far as cable cards go.


Right here:


> http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ccess.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm
> 
> [Code of Federal Regulations]
> [Title 47, Volume 4]
> ...


Shows what exactly cable operators are required to provide as far as cable cards go.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

ebonovic...do you have any links to the articles you're referring to? Are you talking about OpenCable?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Here is the USA Today article, which is an "overview" of the issue:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-06-04-cable-hdtv_x.htm

And then there is this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=308921
With references to TWC


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

What idiots in that original link! The REASON for the mandate for cable cards was to not allow cable companies to force the use of their STBs and DVRs (which are really a subset of STBs).


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

There is no point to buying a TIVO series 3 if you are a TWC customer. TWC is going to broadcast every channel using switched digital vide (SDV) bandwidth very soon and the in that scenario there will be nothing on a TWC system which the cablecard in the TIVO S3 will be able to record. So, unfortunately if you're in TWC territory, the TIVO S3 box is not an option for you.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> What idiots in that original link! The REASON for the mandate for cable cards was to not allow cable companies to force the use of their STBs and DVRs (which are really a subset of STBs).


That "WAS" the reason for the cable-card mandate... 
One of the side effects of it taking so long to get the cable card out there.
It was based on one transmission method.

Now the cable-co's are moving onto the next transmission method, which wasn't part of the mandate with regards to the Cable-Co's (aka... the Cable co's found a way around the mandates)

So unless the FCC get's involved to do something about it...
Won't be surprising if most of the "big" cable-co's change their systems.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

giiiiif said:


> According to TWC Customer Service, Time Warner of Raleigh (at least) will not be providing cable cards for or installing them for Tivo Series 3 owners when the box comes out. I don't beleive this is true or legal...my feeling is that customer service is ignorant as usual. However, multiple people on the AVSForum have sent emails to them asking about this and received the same "We won't do it" response. The Raleigh Telecommunications Commission also claims that cable operators are not required to provide the cards for anything they don't want to...again, I think ignorance prevails, but it is worisome nonetheless.
> 
> Here's the Digg article


Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Lets wait until the S3 is actually out before worrying about getting it installed..


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

The time to act is now as waiting for the release of the TIVO S3 would be too late. It's best to be as proactive as you can. Then, at least we tried.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

But if the FCC requires all cable companies BY LAW to provide cable cards, seems to me that them saying "But we have no channels such a card can access" wouldn't be an excuse. Instead, the authorities might view this as defiance of the regs.

Wouldn't a cable company taking such a stand risk having its licence pulled?


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Lets wait until the S3 is actually out before worrying about getting it installed..


You could say that, sure. I'd prefer to be ignorant for the least amount of time possible. If I'm just going to get screwed over for being a TWC customer, I'd rather go ahead and stop looking forward to the S3's release now and come to grips with being stuck with TWC's featureless and unreliable dvr's.....as i was writing this, i saw a fox run through my yard with a rat in its mouth, that is definately a first.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I think that TWC customers should subscribe to DirecTV for a year in protest. Then again, I live to stir the flags of discontent.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

gastrof said:


> But if the FCC requires all cable companies BY LAW to provide cable cards, seems to me that them saying "But we have no channels such a card can access" wouldn't be an excuse. Instead, the authorities might view this as defiance of the regs.
> 
> Wouldn't a cable company taking such a stand risk having its licence pulled?


It's all in the nitty griddies of what the FCC rules and regulations say.
If it is specific to if the system is in X,Y,Z fashion then you have to have the CableCards..

I am sure the cable-co's have enough lawyers and legal heads to tell them if they are in the wrong, or if they can go through with it... PLUS... they have enough lobbying power that if it is the case... they will get exceptions and rules changed.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> It's all in the nitty griddies of what the FCC rules and regulations say.
> If it is specific to if the system is in X,Y,Z fashion then you have to have the CableCards..
> 
> I am sure the cable-co's have enough lawyers and legal heads to tell them if they are in the wrong, or if they can go through with it... PLUS... they have enough lobbying power that if it is the case... they will get exceptions and rules changed.


Plain and simple, TWC is a greedy foolish cable company. Switched Broadcast Video is just a way to gain bandwidth on copper. IMHO, if TWC was actually smart they would be investing in fiber for the long-term, not the short-sighted SBV. In the mean time, the companies using fiber will take the lead, but then again, who said the TWC was a LEADING TECHNOLOGY COMPANY? Past performance has shown that TIME WARNER has made many serious mistakes.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

I can still maybe see some of the FCC comissioners getting mad at the CableCo's, but I guess cable feels like they will be able to convince them otherwise.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> Plain and simple, TWC is a greedy foolish cable company. Switched Broadcast Video is just a way to gain bandwidth on copper. IMHO, if TWC was actually smart they would be investing in fiber for the long-term, not the short-sighted SBV. In the mean time, the companies using fiber will take the lead, but then again, who said the TWC was a LEADING TECHNOLOGY COMPANY? Past performance has shown that TIME WARNER has made many serious mistakes.


The worst part it... doesn't matter who is the "leader in technology".
With the way that cable-co model works... with very few exceptions... there are the only game in town (with regards to cable offerings)

So if you are in a TWC area (Which a large number of people are)... you have next to no choice, other then SAT or OTA right now...


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

I dunno about the cable companies having lawyers and such.

I mean, if the FCC "feared" them, would they have required the providing of cable cards (n place of rented boxes) in the first place?

TWC may be treading on thin ice.

If so, I LOVE it.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

The letter sent to the FCC alerting them that the S3 would soon be on the market mentions the SDV concerns of TiVo and hints at something being done to ensure that CableCard devices like the S3 will still have access to the same programming whenever the changeover takes place. So, there may be some chance there could be some sort of solution to keep it from rendering the S3 useless.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

gastrof said:


> But if the FCC requires all cable companies BY LAW to provide cable cards, seems to me that them saying "But we have no channels such a card can access" wouldn't be an excuse. Instead, the authorities might view this as defiance of the regs.
> 
> Wouldn't a cable company taking such a stand risk having its licence pulled?


47CFR76.640(a) describes which cable systems must comply with the CableCard requirement:

---

The requirements of this section shall apply to digital cable

systems. For purposes of this section, digital cable systems shall be

defined as a cable system with one or more channels utilizing QAM

modulation for transporting programs and services from its headend to

receiving devices. Cable systems that only pass through 8 VSB broadcast

signals shall not be considered digital cable systems.

---

No QAM modulation? No need to comply with the section.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

gastrof said:


> But if the FCC requires all cable companies BY LAW to provide cable cards, seems to me that them saying "But we have no channels such a card can access" wouldn't be an excuse. Instead, the authorities might view this as defiance of the regs.
> 
> Wouldn't a cable company taking such a stand risk having its licence pulled?


ok so your saying the cable company is supposed to give you a cablecard and charge you for it while telling you it will not work with their new transmission system that is not covered under the law.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

giiiiif said:


> The letter sent to the FCC alerting them that the S3 would soon be on the market mentions the SDV concerns of TiVo and hints at something being done to ensure that CableCard devices like the S3 will still have access to the same programming whenever the changeover takes place. So, there may be some chance there could be some sort of solution to keep it from rendering the S3 useless.


you would still have ota. only the cable part of the s3 would be useless to those in areas a cable com is trying the new transmission tech. Or tivo could bring out a unit that did QAM and the new SDV if it is used by cablecos.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

Dssturbo1 said:


> Or tivo could bring out a unit that did QAM and the new SDV if it is used by cablecos.


TiVo could make a box that supported SDV but it could not decrypt the signal since cablecard is not required for SVD. New FCC regulations will have to be put in place to require a new type of "cablecard" for SVD.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Any DVR which will not record from all of the set of (the broadcast networks, the discovery networks, tlc, tnt, fx, usa, bravo, the movie channels, boomerang, turner classic movies and most importantly the science fiction channel) and record them all in high-definition will be useless to me.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

SpankyInChicago said:


> 47CFR76.640(a) describes which cable systems must comply with the CableCard requirement:
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


But, the section has an either/or. In this case, they did not cause systems passing 8VSB because it can easily be tuned using standard HDTV tuners therefore there is no need for a cablecard.

The cablecos are definitely trying to skirt the spirit of the mandate here.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Lee L said:


> The cablecos are definitely trying to skirt the spirit of the mandate here.


Isn't that pretty much status-quo..... 
For just about all these mandates.....


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Dssturbo1 said:


> ok so your saying the cable company is supposed to give you a cablecard and charge you for it while telling you it will not work with their new transmission system that is not covered under the law.


No.

That's not what I said and you know that quite well.

The point was that the FCC was making sure the cable companies would be "cooperative" with customers prefering to use their own equipment instead of rented boxes.

The step taken by TWC seems to be defying that FCC aim.

This, it seems, would make the act illegal.

I suspect they'd either best get their act in order to comply with the FCC's aim, or the FCC will now regulate their "method of avoidance" and force them to make THAT compliant with customer owned equipment.


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

The cable companies have fought CableCards from day one and will continue to drag their feet as much as possible. They will use their lawyers and fight in every technical committee to slow things down as much as possible.

Cable companies (for the most part) are now public companies. The CEO and board are rewarded for growing the company. Since the cable companies have long ago reached saturation point on subscribers, their is no more growth there. Remember, Yahoo recently tanked because it "only" grew by 28%. Being profitable doesn't matter, what drives public companies is to outperform what is expected of them.

The only way cable companies can do that is to put a STB in front of consumers and sell services such as their equivalent of ebay and travel services. Cablevision of Westchester runs adds all the time selling their real estate and auto listing service. This is the same reason the telcos and cable companies are fighting "net neutrality". They want to break the net up ala the 1980s AOL model, where each provider has their own services. Terrible for consumers, great for cable companies.

We've let this happen by allowing the cable companies to merge and grow too large, and by electing people that have a "hands-off-the-market" attitude. Had we had that philosophy each state, and each city could have ended up with a different TV standard, and you would have had to buy a different TV if you moved.

This is why they have fought TiVO, cablecards, and are fighting to put OCAP into CC 2.0 standard, so they can control the user experience and sell their crap. That's the only way the CEOs of the cable companies can make their stock options worth millions, or at least the only way they see that they can.

CableCard is dead. TiVO, as much as I hate to say it, is probably going that way also. The only way TiVO can survive is to convince the cable companies that they can sell more stuff if they use a TiVo interface since it is easier to use and people like it better, other than that, the cable companies have shown they know how to run rings around the FCC so I wouldn't bet on help coming from them.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

giiiiif said:


> According to TWC Customer Service, Time Warner of Raleigh (at least) will not be providing cable cards for or installing them for Tivo Series 3 owners when the box comes out. I don't beleive this is true or legal...my feeling is that customer service is ignorant as usual. However, multiple people on the AVSForum have sent emails to them asking about this and received the same "We won't do it" response. The Raleigh Telecommunications Commission also claims that cable operators are not required to provide the cards for anything they don't want to...again, I think ignorance prevails, but it is worisome nonetheless.
> 
> Here's the Digg article


My brother works for Time Warner in Raleigh.. Ill have to ask him about that.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> My brother works for Time Warner in Raleigh.. Ill have to ask him about that.


Nice, let him know his co-workers have sparked outrage on Engadget.com, Gizmodo.com, and TivoBlog.com 

It would be interesting to see if TWC has educated their employees about this at all.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

Dssturbo1 said:


> you would still have ota. only the cable part of the s3 would be useless to those in areas a cable com is trying the new transmission tech. Or tivo could bring out a unit that did QAM and the new SDV if it is used by cablecos.


Isn't the general opinion that OTA pretty much sucks?


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

giiiiif said:


> Isn't the general opinion that OTA pretty much sucks?


Not HD OTA. OTA HD is not in anyway compressed (in most cases), so if you can get it, it is definitely the way to go. Where I live I get NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX with one antenna on my roof.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

My OTA HD looks MUCH better than my boyfriend's Adelphia-HD thru his HD-DVR... either live or recorded. His is pixelated and obviously compressed. Mine is not.

I just wish I could figure out why QAM channels won't work in my place (are they compressed)?


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

pkscout said:


> Not HD OTA. OTA HD is not in anyway compressed (in most cases), so if you can get it, it is definitely the way to go. Where I live I get NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX with one antenna on my roof.


Well I don't mean the quality of the signal, although I've never noticed any pixelation in the HD i get from TWC. All you get with OTA is the major networks right?


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

giiiiif said:


> Well I don't mean the quality of the signal, although I've never noticed any pixelation in the HD i get from TWC. All you get with OTA is the major networks right?


Basically. There are some other small market stations (including a Spanish channel), but if you're asking if I can ESPN-HD or anything like that OTA, then the answer is no. But the major networks show about 95% of the HD I want to watch. I'm not interested in paying for the last 5% (well, except for during ACC basketball season, but since the ACC signed a contract with a group that can't get their head out of their a&% long enough to figure out how to do HD, it doesn't matter).


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

pkscout said:


> Basically. There are some other small market stations (including a Spanish channel), but if you're asking if I can ESPN-HD or anything like that OTA, then the answer is no. But the major networks show about 95% of the HD I want to watch. I'm not interested in paying for the last 5% (well, except for during ACC basketball season, but since the ACC signed a contract with a group that can't get their head out of their a&% long enough to figure out how to do HD, it doesn't matter).


Yeah, Raycom is so backward it is amazing. It really sucks when the game is on ESPN HD and since Raycom covers it here we can't get it.


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

Lee L said:


> Yeah, Raycom is so backward it is amazing. It really sucks when the game is on ESPN HD and since Raycom covers it here we can't get it.


Yes, that's yet another example of big businesses raping consumers. If only we could re-invent human nature to be like it is in Star Trek where they all unite to make everything better


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> There is no point to buying a TIVO series 3 if you are a TWC customer. TWC is going to broadcast every channel using switched digital vide (SDV) bandwidth very soon and the in that scenario there will be nothing on a TWC system which the cablecard in the TIVO S3 will be able to record. So, unfortunately if you're in TWC territory, the TIVO S3 box is not an option for you.


Excuse my ignorance, but could one use a TWC STB instead of cable card with Tivo S3?


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## gfb107 (Jul 16, 2001)

No. The S3 doesn't work with any STBs.


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## cyclone (Nov 18, 2004)

Hi, All,

I have a contact in the TWC executive offices. I contacted him. His response was that TWC's policy is to provide CableCards for any verified UDCP and that they'll straighten things out in Raleigh. There is, however, apparently some controversy as to whether the Tivo Series 3 has been fully validated.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

The corporate offices for Time-Warner cable are 203-328-0600, if anyone is interested in calling there regarding obtaining cablecards and/or the SDV issues.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cyclone said:


> ...There is, however, apparently some controversy as to whether the Tivo Series 3 has been fully validated.


Maybe in *THEIR* mind there's a controversy. Not according to CableLabs.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

giiiiif said:


> Well I don't mean the quality of the signal, although I've never noticed any pixelation in the HD i get from TWC. All you get with OTA is the major networks right?


I get pletty of other stuff besides major networks. I get Fox, Univision, CBS, NBC, 2 PBS, UPN, WB, and about 9 other independent stations. Right now I get 19 different stations and most of them have several sub channels.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

You get all that from OTA? Wish I was in CA!

All I get is FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, UPN (on a SD sub-set of my HD-CBS) and 1 HD and 2 SD PBS.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I highly recommend anyone who cares about this issue to send an e-mail to [email protected] and blind carbon copy [email protected] on it.

Here is the e-mail that I sent: (I'm still waiting to hear back, but will post my response if I get one).

*Cablecard and SDV...*
Bill Tello
To: '[email protected]'
Bcc: '[email protected]'
___________________________________________________________

Hello:

My name is William Tello, I'm a 43 year-old software developer and I live with my wife Ellen in Waterville, Maine.

I am currently a DirecTV/NDS customer and I've owned a DirecTIVO and a standalone TIVO (with real TIVO software in them) for a long time now. I cannot rave enough about how much my wife and I love TIVO DVR(s). We no longer watch "live" television at all and have many "first run only" season passes set up to view our favorite programming.

We just purchased a Sony KD-34XBR960 widescreen high-definition television last year and we have a Hughes HR10-250 high-definition DirecTIVO receiver to run it.

The problem with DirecTV is now that Rupert Murdoch/NDS has taken over, they are moving away from DVR(s) with TIVO software built-in, in favor of their own prorietary DVR(s). Their high-definition line-up is very limited for $10.00 per month and their high-definition channels are broadcast in HD-LITE which is 1280x768p and not true high-definition which is 1920x1080i. They are also launching new satellites with Ka-Band/MPEG-4 capabilities which will not be compatible with the Hughes HR10-250 DirecTIVO DVR which I currently have. Coming this Fall, they are going to offer in my area, high-definition locals on a new DirecTV proprietary high-definition DVR (which if it based on their R15 model I hear is as buggy as many cable television provided DVR(s)). I'm not too excited about that.

Also, my area in Maine is an Adelphia territory and I've heard soon to become a Time-Warner area. At first I was excited about that; especially because I know that the TIVO Series 3 (which can record from two cablecards at once) is soon to be released and I though it would be great to use a TIVO S3 with Time-Warner cable. I thought that I would probably run one TIVO S3 with two cablecards and one TWC DVR for vide-on-demand and all of that within my A/V system.

Since then I have learned that Time-Warner is testing switched digital video in a few select markets and has plans to roll SDV out by the end of the year and then convert most (if not all) digital programming to use SDV in 2007. I have also learned that the TIVO S2 cannot record SDV programming (or even see it for that matter). I have also learned that TWC in Raleigh, North Carolina is refusing to even give cablecards to people for use in third-party devices.

I'm also aware that TIVO has filed with the FCC regarding the SDV issue and has asked the FCC to require the cable vendors to keep all original, broadcast and cable progrmming available on cablecard (and not using SDV). I really hope the FCC gets involved in this.

Anyway, I really wanted to speak with someone high-enough within the Time-Warner organization who has a knowledge of what I'm talking about and maybe can put some better perspective on it for me.

Is there any way I will be able to effectively use a TIVO S3 with TWC and still record high-definition and standard-definition, digital programming? I hope you have a better prognosis for this than what I am learning in tivocommunity.com, dbsforums.com, dbstalk.com, avsforums.com and satelliteguys.us.

So, far it looks like my best bet might be to remain a DirecTV customer, but I'm hoping that is not the case.

I won't go back to wathcing "live" television and have only three requirements for a DVR:

1. It must relibaly record all selected programming. (TIVO is about 99% - I can understand if the President addresses the nation or some other programming pre-empts my favorite programming)

2. It must reliably record only "first run" episodes of a season pass when instructed.

3. It must reliably fast-forward over commercial advertising.

I hope to hear back from you.

Best Regards,
Bill Tello
[email protected]


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I guess I'm pretty lucky - I get about 50 unencrypted QAM channels, of which 8 are HD networks. (12 of the dgital channels are traffic cams, but it's still digital!)

My "freebies" include all broadcast networks in HD except My/UPN, and for somereason, I get Turner Classic Movies and not one, but THREE shopping channels! (There was also a short time that Sci-Fi was showing up as an SD channel, but that disappeared. This is weird because there's no digital Sci-Fi channel even using Cablevsion's hardware!)

```
HD	SD	Channel

2-1	84-2	WCBS CBS NY
-	84-3	i Network
4-1	84-4	WNBC NBC NY
4-2	-	WNBC-Weather Plus
4-4	-	WNBC 4.4
5-1	84-5	WNYY Fox-NY
-	84-6	Univision
7-1	84-7	WABC ABC NY
-	7-2	WABC+
-	7-3	WABCnow
-	84-9	WWOR - My9 (used to be UPN)
11-1	84-11	CW-NY (used to be WB11)
13-1	-	WNET-HD PBS
-	13-2	WNET-SD PBS
-	13-3	WNET-13 ThirteenWorld
-	84-13	PBS Kids
-	21-2	WLIW-DT PBS
-	84-21	WLIW-DT PBS
-	21-3	WLIW Create PBS
-	74-449	ESPN Radio
-	77-12	News 12 LI
-	92-12	News 12 LI
-	89-68	TCM
-	89-100	Scrolling Cable Guide Channel
-	92-10	WLNY 55/10 Independent
-	92-16	Telemundo
-	92-17	Telefutura
-	99-8	HSN
-	99-15	QVC
-	100-74	RAI / Italia
-	100-670	Traffic Cams (12 channels, through 100-694)
-	100-979	Saratoga Racing
-	102-19	ShopNBC
-	107-58	CourtTV
-	107-680	MSG
```


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I'm SUPPOSED to get:

Local HDs: NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS (no FOX)
HDNet, HDNet movies

Via OTA I get all those locals PLUS FOX so I guess I'm better off... except for when the signal drops.

There's some technical reason it's not working in my location. Tech support is no help and my name's not on the account so I can't get tech support out to my location to fix it in person.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

pkscout said:


> Not HD OTA. OTA HD is not in anyway compressed (in most cases), so if you can get it, it is definitely the way to go. Where I live I get NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX with one antenna on my roof.


OTA Digital TV (including HD) is compressed using Mpeg2. It just isn't NEARLY as compressed as the pay TV companies.



giiiiif said:


> Well I don't mean the quality of the signal, although I've never noticed any pixelation in the HD i get from TWC. All you get with OTA is the major networks right?





rminsk said:


> I get pletty of other stuff besides major networks. I get Fox, Univision, CBS, NBC, 2 PBS, UPN, WB, and about 9 other independent stations. Right now I get 19 different stations and most of them have several sub channels.


Well, here we are mixing up Digital and HD. I doubt you get 19 stations in HD like giiiif said. Out of those 19 I bet only the majors are actually broadcasting HD content.


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

gfb107 said:


> No. The S3 doesn't work with any STBs.


Why?


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## giiiiif (Jul 31, 2003)

skanter said:


> Why?


Because it is meant to replace your set-top box. No more rigged up IR blasters.


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

giiiiif said:


> Because it is meant to replace your set-top box. No more rigged up IR blasters.


I thought there was a choice, and that S3 could change channels thru serial port and receive digital signal thru HDMI from STB.

I guess I was wrong.  Not good, considering the present cable card problems.


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## rminsk (Jun 4, 2002)

skanter said:


> I thought there was a choice, and that S3 could change channels thru serial port and receive digital signal thru HDMI from STB.


The TiVo would not have enough bandwidth to the disk drive to record two uncompressed full bandwidth signals... Plus your disk drive would fill up in a hurry.


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

rminsk said:


> The TiVo would not have enough bandwidth to the disk drive to record two uncompressed full bandwidth signals... Plus your disk drive would fill up in a hurry.


Again, excuse my ignorance -- how is the cablecard different from the STB in terms of how it gets and records the video data?


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## tarman (Aug 3, 2002)

skanter said:


> Why?


 ...can't an S3 work with a STB?

Tho output of an HD STB would be _uncompressed _ video of one form or another of very high bitrate.

The S3 stores only _compressed _ video [significantly smaller bitrate]. The technology required to INEXPENSIVELY recompress HD Video 
does not exist so there is nothing coming out of the STB that the S3 (or any other DVR) can handle.

Somewhat simplified answer but close enough


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## tarman (Aug 3, 2002)

skanter said:


> Again, excuse my ignorance -- how is the cablecard different from the STB in terms of how it gets and records the video data?


Compressed Video ---> STB [uncompress & Decode] --> Full Bandwith HD Video to TV

Compressed Video ---> S3 Hard Drive -- S3 Uncompress --- CableCard Decode --> FullHD

Again Simplified by close enough


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

tarman said:


> ...can't an S3 work with a STB?
> 
> Tho output of an HD STB would be _uncompressed _ video of one form or another of very high bitrate.
> 
> ...


I get it -- thanks.


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

tarman said:


> Compressed Video ---> STB [uncompress & Decode] --> Full Bandwith HD Video to TV
> 
> Compressed Video ---> S3 Hard Drive -- S3 Uncompress --- CableCard Decode --> FullHD
> 
> Again Simplified by close enough


Got it! :up:


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BillyT2002 said:


> TWC is going to broadcast every channel using switched digital vide (SDV) bandwidth very soon and the in that scenario there will be nothing on a TWC system which the cablecard in the TIVO S3 will be able to record.


Are you claiming that they'll be getting rid of ALL analog broadcasting too? So every single customer will need a box for every single TV?

While I realize most probably think it'd be useless to get a S3 for this, someone could theoretically use it for analog cable and OTA HD.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

No I never said Analog feeds would be removed from TWC as they won't (at least until 2009 from what I'm told) and I have also retracted everything I've said about the TIVO S3 and TWC in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4232889&&#post4232889


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

tarman said:


> Compressed Video ---> STB [uncompress & Decode] --> Full Bandwith HD Video to TV
> 
> Compressed Video ---> S3 Hard Drive -- S3 Uncompress --- CableCard Decode --> FullHD
> 
> Again Simplified by close enough


Slight correction ...

Compressed Video -> S3 Tuner -> CableCard Unencrypt -> S3 Hard Drive -> S3 Uncompress --> Full HD

Content is still compressed when CableCard unencrypts it.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

Lee L said:


> But, the section has an either/or. In this case, they did not cause systems passing 8VSB because it can easily be tuned using standard HDTV tuners therefore there is no need for a cablecard.
> 
> The cablecos are definitely trying to skirt the spirit of the mandate here.


Their isn't an either / or.

It says:

"digital cable systems shall be

defined as a cable system with one or more channels utilizing QAM

modulation"

If you have 0 channels utilizing QAM modulation you are not a digital cable system and this entire section does not apply to you and you don't have to supply CableCards. The 8VSB statement is a clarification of the intent of the section.

The cablecos are not trying to "skirt the spirit of the mandate" - they wrote the damn law and the inclusion of a specific technical specification was on purpose to give them an easy out.

Remember, government works for corporate interests, not your interests.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

mbhuff said:


> The cable companies have fought CableCards from day one and will continue to drag their feet as much as possible. They will use their lawyers and fight in every technical committee to slow things down as much as possible.
> 
> Cable companies (for the most part) are now public companies. The CEO and board are rewarded for growing the company. Since the cable companies have long ago reached saturation point on subscribers, their is no more growth there. Remember, Yahoo recently tanked because it "only" grew by 28%. Being profitable doesn't matter, what drives public companies is to outperform what is expected of them.
> 
> ...


This site is in dire need of a : potd : emoticon. You, sir, would definitely win the Post of the Day award. Nicely done.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

pkscout said:


> Not HD OTA. OTA HD is not in anyway compressed (in most cases), so if you can get it, it is definitely the way to go. Where I live I get NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX with one antenna on my roof.


Not exactly true. OTA HD is compressed quite a bit from the true HD signal. About an 80:1 ratio in fact. When people say that OTA HD is not compressed what they really mean is that it is not further compressed by a third party. With OTA HD, you get the full ATSC alloted bandwidth, which, except in some rare cases where cable companies get a slightly better feed directly from the broadcaster, allows you the best possible picture.


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## JPShinn (Aug 24, 2004)

I had a similar conversation with my local (SF Bay Area) Comcast CSR. She stated that Comcast would not support the install of CableCARDs on the Series 3 Tivo. I sincerely hope she is speaking out of school because that would be very bad news indeed.

John


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

I had a very long conversation with Comcast in person this week because of my flaky Motorola box, and figured I'd ask him about CableCards while I was there. 

He said that in order to guarantee that all CableCARD's they install work properly, they are given a list of equipment they are allowed to install CableCards in. (Most likely based on the list of CableCard certified devices). This list is updated irregularly, and in all honestly, noone pays any attention when it changes. (Cablecards installs just don't happen often enough for people to care). And as a result most CSR's, installers, etc... all work from old lists. Additionally, new devices aren't usually added to the list until they are released and at least one customer wants them installed. There's always a first person with a brand new model TV, who has to jump through some hoops to get a cablecard for it. 

Personally, I think the entire conversation is fairly moot until the S3 is released. I wouldn't expect Comcast, TWC, or any other cable company for that matter to say otherwise until then. Until then, you're just beating you head against the wall for the fun of it.

-Ken


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

kdmorse said:


> ... Personally, I think the entire conversation is fairly moot until the S3 is released. I wouldn't expect Comcast, TWC, or any other cable company for that matter to say otherwise until then. Until then, you're just beating your head against the wall for the fun of it.
> 
> -Ken


THANK YOU....someone had to say it.


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## JPShinn (Aug 24, 2004)

Fair 'nuf. I'll be patient . . . 

JS


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## mfogarty5 (Apr 27, 2006)

Our discussion made it to Engadget!

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/time-warner-does-doesnt-support-cablecard-tivos


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

I agree it is likely just ignorance and crossed wires.

It all boils down to the telecommunications act of 1996 that told the FCC to write the regulation.

the LAW that empowered the FCC says:



> "assure the commercial availability to consumers of multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, of converter boxes, interactive communications equipment, and other equipment used by consumers to access multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, from manufacturers, retailers, and other vendors not affiliated with any multichannel video programming distributor."


can be found here: http://www.fcc.gov/Reports/tcom1996.pdf

section 304 COMPETITIVE AVAILIBILITY OF NAVIGATION DEVICES is the part that tells the FCC to create the regs that spawned cablecard.

If I try to interprete that it seems to me that congress is saying that people ought to be able to by 3rd party boxes to access "multichannel video programming and other services" offered by cable.

Now I'm not a lawyer so my interpretation might be off there but it seems to me that switched video will need to be avilible by third party boxes or the FCC will not be enforcing the law.

THe law trumps any regulation that the FCC may or may not write. (as we found out when the FCC's broadcast flag rulings got tossed out). Congress writes laws telling the agenices like the FCC to create regulations to carry out the intent of the law. Seems to me that if switched video is not properly handled by third party devices than there is going to be a problem.

My guess is the fcc forces switched video to be included in cablecard 2 or OCAP or whatever hte end game winds up being and that for the time being cabelcard1 users get hung out to dry.

THe FCC just takes forever. It's been 10 years and the envisioned outcome of the law still doesn't exist. The law clearly states that the FCC can grant waivers so that new or improved services can be released (eg switched video) so the FCC will likely grant Time Warner another 5 years to come up with a third party solution to work switched video. At which point they will come out with IPTV and get anotehr 5 year reprieve. And then 3D video and get another 5 years. And so on. And so on... And so on... and so on.......


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Came home today and had a voice mail from Time Warner. They called to thank me for my email to them regarding cablecards and the Series 3 and apologized for the confusion. The person said TWC will be providing cablecards and support (I presume setup support) for any CableLabs certified device, including the Series 3.

Well, wasn't that exciting. It's nice to know if folks make a big enough stink about things that even big business has to obey the law.


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## BigBearf (Aug 18, 2005)

> Came home today and had a voice mail from Time Warner. They called to thank me for my email to them regarding cablecards and the Series 3 and apologized for the confusion. The person said TWC will be providing cablecards and support (I presume setup support) for any CableLabs certified device, including the Series 3.
> 
> Well, wasn't that exciting. It's nice to know if folks make a big enough stink about things that even big business has to obey the law.


I also emailed TWC regarding cablecard support for the Series 3 and today I had a voicemail stating the TWC would indeed be providing cablecards, support and setup support for any CableLabs certified device. This is in Raleigh, NC where all the smoke originated from.

I guess enough complaining and TWC listened.

BigBearf


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