# TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording



## andyf

Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.

It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.

Anyone else?


----------



## JoeKustra

Could you check your software version in System Information? It's the BSC that has me worried the most.


----------



## andyf

JoeKustra said:


> Could you check your software version in System Information? It's the BSC that has me worried the most.


21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849
BSC?


----------



## NorthAlabama

andyf said:


> BSC?


blue spinning circle:

*TiVo Abbreviations*​


----------



## andyf

NorthAlabama said:


> blue spinning circle:
> 
> *TiVo Abbreviations*​


Ah! Got it. I think it's streaming the ad before playing the recording and it's really bad quality video going into a 4K TV. The BSC may be while it's getting the ad from their server.


----------



## JoeKustra

andyf said:


> Ah! Got it. I think it's streaming the ad before playing the recording and it's really bad quality video going into a 4K TV. The BSC may be while it's getting the ad from their server.


My signature has a link to those abbreviations. I do wonder: whose servers? The thumbnail pictures are from (I think) Akamai.


----------



## Dan203

What the f*ck! No way! If they start doing this to me I'm out. No way they're forcing me to watch ads on a device I paid almost $1,000 for with lifetime service.


----------



## moyekj

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Was this for every single recording you played back or just a few random ones? Very annoying either way. (I guess another reason not to use TE4).


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> What the f*ck! No way! If they start doing this to me I'm out. No way they're forcing me to watch ads on a device I paid almost $1,000 for with lifetime service.


 If this gets applied to TE3 I completely agree. If it's TE4 only then won't affect me (for now).


----------



## JackMcC

I was afraid something like this would happen eventually. It's not enough they have our viewing history to sell for a profit, they now have to target us with ads. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## NorthAlabama

andyf said:


> Ah! Got it. I think it's streaming the ad before playing the recording and it's really bad quality video going into a 4K TV. The BSC may be while it's getting the ad from their server.


who's your service provider?


----------



## KevTech

Just checked about 15 recording and none of them had any commercials at the start.


----------



## andyf

This is a short video commercial, I don't know who's servers. But they look like SD low bitrate videos.
Happened on every recording so far but there's only been 5 recordings since I set it up.
My service provider is Comcast.

You can skip over the video by pressing FFWD but that's not the point is it?

I wonder if they're just testing this with a few folks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Is it fully activated with service?


----------



## Joe3

Sorry, I'm not buying it.


----------



## andyf

Yes. Fully activated. But it was either temporary or not on all shows. I just tried to record The Simpsons so I could show a video and while I still got the BSC it didn't show a commercial and went straight to the recording. I'll try again tomorrow with the same shows I recorded this morning.


----------



## NashGuy

andyf said:


> This is a short video commercial, I don't know who's servers. But they look like SD low bitrate videos.
> Happened on every recording so far but there's only been 5 recordings since I set it up.
> My service provider is Comcast.
> 
> You can skip over the video by pressing FFWD but that's not the point is it?
> 
> I wonder if they're just testing this with a few folks.


Andy, are you signed up as a beta tester for TiVo?

I want to make clear that I am NOT a TiVo beta tester. But... a little birdie who IS one told me this week that they're seeing ads inserted into the Hydra program guide grid on their TiVo.

Before everyone freaks out, we don't yet know what these pre-roll streaming video ads or static UI grid guide ads mean. Maybe it's something that TiVo is developing only for deployment on their pay TV partners' TiVo boxes. And/or maybe it's something that will be offered as an optional way for retail TiVo users to pay less for their monthly/annual TiVo service fees.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> Andy, are you signed up as a beta tester for TiVo?
> 
> I want to make clear that I am NOT a TiVo beta tester. But... a little birdie who IS one told me this week that they're seeing ads inserted into the Hydra program guide grid on their TiVo.
> 
> Before everyone freaks out, we don't yet know what these pre-roll streaming video ads or static UI grid guide ads mean. Maybe it's something that TiVo is developing only for deployment on their pay TV partners' TiVo boxes. And/or maybe it's something that will be offered as an optional way for retail TiVo users to pay less for their monthly/annual TiVo service fees.


Or maybe TiVo went a little crazy in the head.


----------



## andyf

I have been a beta tester from 2000 through 2010. Nothing since, but my status on my account is Beta.


----------



## andyf

Here's a video of what happens with Young Sheldon on CBS

www.andyf.com/IMG_0950.MOV


----------



## Mikeguy

Have not gotten those ads, and they would be *totally unacceptable*. I don't even appreciate the significantly shorter ones on free YouTube (and they impact my viewership). I wouldn't accept this on a subscription TiVo box, not do I think that I would accept it in a subscription-free TiVo box. It would be time to explore the Amazon Recast.


----------



## johnfasc

Just info...I have an ota Roamio, hydra, latest system update and have not seen any ads previous to any recordings.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

This is truly horrifying...


----------



## NorthAlabama

i'm wondering if @TiVo_Ted has any guidence?


----------



## Joe3

NorthAlabama said:


> i'm wondering if @TiVo_Ted has any guidence?





PSU_Sudzi said:


> This is truly horrifying...


Wait, wait the astronomical observatory at Ottershaw has picked up explosions on the surface of the planet Mars, creating an eerie green glow, preparing for their arrival in a New Jersey field the night before Halloween.


----------



## KevTech

If the clock was off then I could see the Tivo catching ads before program starts.

Tivo thinks it is 7 but it is really 6:59


----------



## smark

KevTech said:


> If the clock was off then I could see the Tivo catching ads before program starts.
> 
> Tivo thinks it is 7 but it is really 6:59


That would beg the question of any padding setup on the recordings.


----------



## tenthplanet

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


You've got a drop in ad similar to what to what Sling, Direct TV Now, and some other streaming services drop into programming. Sounds like your cable co. is experimenting. The blue circle than the crappy SD video means there is delay pulling from a remote server. Are your cable provider and internet provider the same company. The other possibility is Tivo is experimenting and maybe you weren't supposed to get the ad.


----------



## Dan203

The fact that the TiVo play bar doesn't show until after the ad seems to prove that it's being inserted by the TiVo and not part of the recording. 

What the actual f*ck! Seriously if they force this on us I'm going to be p*ssed. I hate ads! I've paid TiVo thousands upon thousands of dollars over the years to avoid them in my recorded TV. If they start trying to force their own ads onto me I'm done.


----------



## CloudAtlas

Dan203 said:


> What the actual f*ck! Seriously if they force this on us I'm going to be p*ssed. I hate ads! I've paid TiVo thousands upon thousands of dollars over the years to avoid them in my recorded TV. If they start trying to force their own ads onto me I'm done.


Unfortunately Roku has shown how profitable ads can be. Hopefully TiVO is testing this for the OEM market and not retail. Not ideal but if this keeps TiVO in business I can deal with one upfront commercial. The people who buy retail TiVo's are not very profitable customers. They do not buy directly from TiVO forcing TiVO to split profits with retailers. They buy onetime All-In service and then hold onto hardware forever. And now a lot of the TCF customers have become addicted to only paying rock bottom $599 DVR+All-In SALE prices. I'm surprised TiVO waited so long.


----------



## davezatz

andyf said:


> Here's a video of what happens with Young Sheldon on CBS
> 
> www.andyf.com/IMG_0950.MOV


Nice discovery! But unfortunate!

I did mention the other day pre-rolls have been tested but not clear how and when they'd be utilized. I imagine this would be more a MSO solution or a subsidized retail offering, rather than something we'll see on existing hardware/service.

May I publish the video? Any pics of ads in guide? Thanks!


----------



## wmcbrine

CloudAtlas said:


> ... rock bottom $599 DVR+All-In SALE prices.


"Rock bottom" and $600? These are concepts that don't belong together.


----------



## andyf

davezatz said:


> Nice discovery! But unfortunate!
> 
> I did mention the other day pre-rolls have been tested but not clear how and when they'd be utilized. I imagine this would be more a MSO solution or a subsidized retail offering, rather than something we'll see on existing hardware/service.
> 
> May I publish the video? Any pics of ads in guide? Thanks!


Feel free to download the video and host it yourself. No ads in the guide.


----------



## BNBTivo

CloudAtlas said:


> Unfortunately Roku has shown how profitable ads can be. Hopefully TiVO is testing this for the OEM market and not retail. Not ideal but if this keeps TiVO in business I can deal with one upfront commercial. The people who buy retail TiVo's are not very profitable customers. They do not buy directly from TiVO forcing TiVO to split profits with retailers. They buy onetime All-In service and then hold onto hardware forever. And now a lot of the TCF customers have become addicted to only paying rock bottom $599 DVR+All-In SALE prices. I'm surprised TiVO waited so long.


$600 is "rock bottom"? Lol. Woah!


----------



## edwinyuen

andyf said:


> Feel free to download the video and host it yourself. No ads in the guide.


It's interesting as I have seen the exact same thing on my Bolt but I didn't think it was a drop-in Ad. I thought there was a bug where it was playing the beginning of another random show and almost all shows play a couple seconds of the commercial before the start of the show I ask for. I guess I never let the ad play more than a second or so before I hit FF and it went away. But I've seen it happen several times in the past week or so.


----------



## andyf

edwinyuen said:


> It's interesting as I have seen the exact same thing on my Bolt but I didn't think it was a drop-in Ad. I thought there was a bug where it was playing the beginning of another random show and almost all shows play a couple seconds of the commercial before the start of the show I ask for. I guess I never let the ad play more than a second or so before I hit FF and it went away. But I've seen it happen several times in the past week or so.


I thought the same thing at first. The clincher is when you go to play the show again from the beginning you get a totally different ad.


----------



## bob1000

I use My Premiere to record shows I can't get on Hulu, Netflix, Prime, or using Playon Desktop recordings. Playon has an adequate commercial skipper for recordings, providing the media PC has a strong processor (mine is an i5-4590T, passmark of about 5400). I was thinking about upgrading to the new Tivo when it comes out, but now will wait for reviews.

Roku is my main access point to streaming. My pfSense router has an add on package called pfBlockerNG. It blocks as many ads as I can find lists for. This is blocking over the entire household. At this time, it seems to block Roku ads well. I occasionally have to whitelist sites so the home computers get access to the right sites and features.


----------



## texasPI

bob1000 said:


> I use My Premiere to record shows I can't get on Hulu, Netflix, Prime, or using Playon Desktop recordings. Playon has an adequate commercial skipper for recordings, providing the media PC has a strong processor (mine is an i5-4590T, passmark of about 5400). I was thinking about upgrading to the new Tivo when it comes out, but now will wait for reviews.
> 
> Roku is my main access point to streaming. My pfSense router has an add on package called pfBlockerNG. It blocks as many ads as I can find lists for. This is blocking over the entire household. At this time, it seems to block Roku ads well. I occasionally have to whitelist sites so the home computers get access to the right sites and features.


I use Pi-hole in a similar way and have not seen ads like these in TiVo or Roku.


----------



## V7Goose

These ads are TRULY HORRIBLE in my opinion. Absolutely unacceptable, and they have made me seriously start looking at TiVo alternatives that I have always ignored. I have seen a lot of these pre-roll ads, and I am too disgusted for family-friendly words. I have never been interested in replacing my TiVos, but that has totally changed now, and I am certain I will never spend another cent with this company unless they turn this around! They have violated their implied contract with me, and they cannot be trusted.

Here is another BIG problem you will start to see with these ads: You can sometimes skip them before they start by hitting the jump forward button during that nasty BSC (but they seem to be trying to disable that). If you regularly try that, you will frequently see your TiVo lock up and then reboot after about a 30 second wait! The first clue that you have been screwed is a short error message that says "Can't play now. E117"; once you see that, it WILL eventually reboot.

BTW, the pre-roll commercials are absolutely NOT recorded with the show - if you stream a show from another box running TE3 (or copy it to a Series 3), the nasty ads are NOT seen. I have now totally quit watching ANYTHING directly on my one TE4 box for this very reason.


----------



## samsauce29

I haven't paid enough attention yet (Summer shows are the wife's department) to know if we have these. 

Curious if everyone seeing this behavior is on TE4?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## V7Goose

To my knowledge, these pre-roll ads ONLY affect TE4. Probably one of the best arguments ever to dump that terrible software and roll-back to TE3 while we still can!

But they have already shown their dishonest intentions now, so I do not believe for a second that they will allow us to keep using TE3 much longer. One way or another they seem to be intent on screwing all of us.

Can't you just hear the discussions they have been having with potential advertisers?
Hey, we have given our customers the ability to automatically skip all of your commercials, so unless you start paying us money directly to shove your ads down their throats at the beginning of every show, they will NEVER see your commercials again! Bwahahaha!!!

Oh, and if you get in on the ground floor now, we won't raise your rates when we start forcing them to watch our commercials every 30 minutes, and then every 15 minutes, which we are planning to do as soon as the initial outrage dies down!​


----------



## bob1000

texasPI said:


> I use Pi-hole in a similar way and have not seen ads like these in TiVo or Roku.


PiHole is a great way to end up in the same place without installing and learning a new router.

I tried PiHole just for fun and liked it, but went back to pfSense pfBlockerNG because it was good enough and all in one box. Whitelisting is much easier with PiHole, as is finding a lot of useful lists. A cheap Raspberry Pi will do the job very well - recommended.

I used a Hyper-V virtual machine and Linux as the host. It was too much work and I had a lot of internet connection problems on that PC that took a lot of research to overcome.


----------



## arglebargle2

Dammit I just switched over to tivo from fios during the summer sale so I'm beyond the 30 day return period.

If this ends up being a full time thing, I guess I'll put the tivo on ebay and switch back.

I didn't buy a dvr with really nice ad skipping capabilities to have ads added to my recordings.


----------



## JoeKustra

I think it's time for @TiVo_Ted to step in and post something about this.

If the OP has Twitter, I would ask @TiVo_Support WTF?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

JoeKustra said:


> I think it's time for @TiVo_Ted to step in and post something about this.
> 
> If the OP has Twitter, I would ask @TiVo_Support WTF?


I just tweeted Zatz's article to TiVo support on Twitter. Will see if they respond.


----------



## andyf

JoeKustra said:


> I think it's time for @TiVo_Ted to step in and post something about this.
> 
> If the OP has Twitter, I would ask @TiVo_Support WTF?


I don't have Twitter, sorry. Maybe someone else could.


----------



## Jonathan_S

V7Goose said:


> But they have already shown their dishonest intentions now, so I do not believe for a second that they will allow us to keep using TE3 much longer. One way or another they seem to be intent on screwing all of us.


I'm not in the beta program, but I heard second hand that they recently asked beta program participants if they still had TE3 units they'd be willing to beta updated TE3 software on.

That hints that they're keeping it for the moment. (Of course it doesn't mean the new update wouldn't contain its own nastiness)


----------



## DeltaOne

bob1000 said:


> My pfSense router has an add on package called pfBlockerNG. It blocks as many ads as I can find lists for. This is blocking over the entire household.


We run pfSense here too, but have used Pi-hole for LAN-wide ad blocking. Pi-hole works great. Every so often I check the Pi-hole dashboard and see that 25 to 30% of our LAN traffic was ads and was blocked. 30% !!!

About a month ago we created VLANs (wired and wireless) for our IOT stuff. We put our Roamio and Minis on the IOT network. But if ads start showing up on our TiVo's I'll move them back to the "good" network that is protected by Pi-hole.


----------



## Charles R

My take... since virtually the rest of the world is doing such I can't logically get upset. And in reality I'm saving more time with AutoSkip - as in if I had to pick both or neither I'd pick both. Although I don't think it will be implemented in all devices. As an example with Amazon's Kindle you can purchase the same tablet with ads (you pay less) or without ads.

If they were to show up illogically I might run out (next decent sale) and purchase a Recast to see how happy I could be with it. Logically even the reduced image quality would be enough to prevent me from switching... but often logical doesn't win out.

PS: I run pi-hole on an ODROID XU4 (Raspberry Pi Killer) along with many other apps (Plex Media Server / MySQL Server / Print Server / Media Server / Etc) and it blocks roughly 27% of my DNS requests (ads and or tracking sites).


----------



## Adam C.

My Tivo is heading for the trash heap if I start getting these ads. Right on queue, the Recast is back on sale today for Prime members.


----------



## nrc

Curious if everyone who is seeing these is a current or past beta tester with their account in beta status.

If this were completely seamless and you can skip it exactly like a regular commercial, it wouldn't bother me that much. Treating their own commercials differently than the content providers' would be pretty heinous.


----------



## foghorn2

Dan203 said:


> What the f*ck! No way! If they start doing this to me I'm out. No way they're forcing me to watch ads on a device I paid almost $1,000 for with lifetime service.


I dont think Tivo would care, they would just tell you you Flock Off , theyve already made money off all these flockers.


----------



## Joe3

Here is another publication on this topic.
From The Verge

TiVo tests running pre-roll ads before DVR recordings

I only post it to show, unfortunately, this disgusting disgrace of a money mugging is beginning to have legs and is running. TiVo is going to have to issue some response to theses stories.
No?


----------



## foghorn2

andyf said:


> Here's a video of what happens with Young Sheldon on CBS
> 
> www.andyf.com/IMG_0950.MOV


Ironically the Windows store wants 99 cents to watch your MOV file, itunes plays just the audio, I have to load it onto Kodi which played it fine. Insulting.

The commercial itself was not annoying, unlike most streaming ads as the chick was hot.

I could see this working for new TiVo users who do not pay for lifetime or a low MRC.

Lifetime or full MRC: no TiVo ads.

Lower MRC or none: TiVO ads.

I wont have a problem with that. but the Ads need to not be annoying, actually I wish there was a way to insert old tv ads from the 70's and 80's and some 90's- I dont mind watching those. I can spend a whole evening just watching old commercials on youtube.


----------



## Dan203

If they want to do this for new customers who pay less for their TiVo service then so be it. But don’t force it on those of us that paid $600 for lifetime.


----------



## steinbch

andyf said:


> I have been a beta tester from 2000 through 2010. Nothing since, but my status on my account is Beta.


If the status on his box is listed as Beta, then most likely it sounds like he has beta software mapped to his TiVo (inadvertantly or purposefully). This will sometimes happen if beta hardware is handed out in a previous beta and not officially enrolled in whatever the latest beta program is. I would put down the pitchforks until more information is shared.


----------



## BobCamp1

Adam C. said:


> My Tivo is heading for the trash heap if I start getting these ads. Right on queue, the Recast is back on sale today for Prime members.


Um... Amazon already does this with their streamed content. Pretty trivial for them to add it to the Recast as well.

As somebody else said, everyone else it doing it because that's where the money is made. At least you can skip it (for now).


----------



## krkaufman

andyf said:


> Here's a video of what happens with Young Sheldon on CBS
> 
> www.andyf.com/IMG_0950.MOV


22 seconds from launch to content. This will be unacceptable except where employed in lieu of paid service plans. (e.g. see VUDU "Free to Watch")


----------



## ufo4sale

If you elect me as TiVo ambassador I will pledge that this sort of thing NEVER happens to begin with.
A vote for me is a vote for your childrens future.


----------



## Adam C.

BobCamp1 said:


> Um... Amazon already does this with their streamed content. Pretty trivial for them to add it to the Recast as well.
> 
> .


The ads that Amazon inserts are usually 20 second promos of other Prime shows, which I actually don't mind. Also the Recast is only a fraction of the cost of a Tivo and has no monthly fees.


----------



## WVZR1

@andyf next TiVo connection might be interesting!!!

Around sale time @TiVo_Ted mentioned coming soon but couldn't comment!!!


----------



## krkaufman

foghorn2 said:


> Ironically the Windows store wants 99 cents to watch your MOV file, itunes plays just the audio, I have to load it onto Kodi which played it fine. Insulting.


Get VLC


----------



## Charles R

Adam C. said:


> Also the Recast is only a fraction of the cost of a Tivo and has no monthly fees.


I paid less than the typical price of the 4-tuner Recast and no monthly fees.


----------



## krkaufman

WVZR1 said:


> @andyf next TiVo connection might be interesting!!!


Chuckle. Gotta love the TCF formatting, at times...


----------



## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> Nice discovery! But unfortunate!
> 
> I did mention the other day pre-rolls have been tested but not clear how and when they'd be utilized. I imagine this would be more a MSO solution or a subsidized retail offering, rather than something we'll see on existing hardware/service.
> 
> May I publish the video? Any pics of ads in guide? Thanks!





PSU_Sudzi said:


> I just tweeted Zatz's article to TiVo support on Twitter. Will see if they respond.


Zatz article...

TiVo Sullies DVR Recordings with Video Ads


----------



## Dan203

Does anyone else make a CableCARD DVR? Does Silicone Dust still make one?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

From TiVo Support on Twitter.


----------



## egeek84

I knew that auto skip was too good to be true and that there would be a catch. 

This is so wrong Tivo! Like others have said, I don't mind if you offer it in a new cheaper plan but those of us already paying 14.99 a month shouldn't have to deal with this.

Please make the right choice here, we love our Tivos but if push comes to shove, there are MANY options out there.

EDIT - wow ok so i saw the post above mine, guess this is here to stay


----------



## schatham

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Are you a beta tester by agreement?

Never mind, asked already.


----------



## cwoody222

No. No no no.

If I see this on my lifetime unit, I’ll get a Recast.

Does TE3 support Alexa?


----------



## trip1eX

the irony in the same company delivering auto commercial skip while also getting into the ad business by introducing it's own 15 second pre-roll ads.

You could see this coming. They said they were going to monetize their UI.

Funny thing for me is I read this thread yesterday and sign up for a (2nd) free trial of YTTV and what do I see there? 15 second even 30 second (and unskippable) pre-roll ads from Google. (at least on some content.)


----------



## Charles R

Per the tweet you can use Skip however I thought those seeing the ads only Fast Forward was active?


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> the irony in the same company giving the customer both auto commercial skip and new 15 second streaming ads.


Yeah. The difference is that TiVo isn't getting paid a dime for those ads they're helping you to skip over in the actual broadcast. But they're getting all the ad revenue for those pre-roll ads that customers view.


----------



## foghorn2

Can you permanently autoskip the pre rolls


----------



## NashGuy

I'm wondering if the next step is to roll out a product with free OTA DVR service (perhaps their upcoming $50 TiVo Android TV Stick in conjunction with a Tablo-style network tuner+hard drive). They'll use their existing AutoSkip technology (supplemented by AI-based ad marking for non-primetime shows) in order to automatically skip over all the original ads embedded in the broadcast recording. But instead, they'll force you to watch, let's say, one or two 30-second targeted streaming ads during each ad break.

Lots of cord-cutters would accept that kind of trade-off for free DVR service. Not sure if such a scheme might violate copyright, fair-use, etc. though. Broadcasters would, of course, be up in arms.


----------



## Charles R

NashGuy said:


> I'm wondering...


Can we keep at least one thread (largely) centered on what's actually happening...


----------



## schatham

PSU_Sudzi said:


> From TiVo Support on Twitter.
> 
> View attachment 43429


That's how it starts, slowly they make it not skip-able.


----------



## WVZR1

Perhaps this was an 'intended beta' for their Edge plans - now that it's leaked and further leaked that even TE3 users have been asked to do testing maybe there actually is reason for concern. Maybe an 'opt-out' w/fee or no commercial skip until you agree! I've a new Bolt that's not even out of the wrap so I may look into a return. These leaks could be enough of an argument I'd think to justify!


----------



## schatham

We'll have to keep internet unplugged except for guide updates. Try inserting adds then Tivo.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> Does anyone else make a CableCARD DVR? Does Silicone Dust still make one?


Windows Media Center still hobbles along for some; otherwise, I believe that SD's DVR software does support their CableCARD network tuner *aside* from protected content.* (No clue if it supports SDV and the associated Tuning Adapter technology, though I'd think they would need to.)

* DRM protected Cable TV channels in the USA are available to be viewed Live via Windows 10, Android and Apple iOS devices. Record, playback and other platforms coming soon. (link)​
edit: Quick check of SD's website highlights a new(?) product of which I was unaware... the SERVIO, their physical DVR offering. Zats review article here.


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> Can we keep at least one thread centered on what's actually happening...


If you've read through the thread so far, I think that's what's actually happening is pretty well established. What more is there to say?

Here are the facts: TiVo owners running TE4 (Hydra) are seeing streaming pre-roll video ads that TiVo is inserting before they begin playback of their regular TV recordings. It's been confirmed by TiVo via Twitter with remarks that seem to indicate that this is now normal behavior and not some sort of limited experiment that isn't ultimately intended for their existing retail customers. The ads can be skipped/FF past, although (at least right now), doing so is a bit sluggish.


----------



## Charles R

schatham said:


> We'll have to keep internet unplugged except for guide updates.


I'm surprised they wouldn't download a number of them for faster service... via the typically call-in. However if the "ad server" is unique (not used for other services) it will easily be blocked by any number of apps/utilities.


----------



## Joe3

WVZR1 said:


> Perhaps this was an 'intended beta' for their Edge plans - now that it's leaked and further leaked that even TE3 users have been asked to do testing maybe there actually is reason for concern. Maybe an 'opt-out' w/fee or no commercial skip until you agree! I've a new Bolt that's not even out of the wrap so I may look into a return. These leaks could be enough of an argument I'd think to justify![/QUOTE


Return it, send them a message they can read from you and all of us. It's a Bolt and it doesn't have stellar reviews.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> If you've read through the thread so far, I think that's what's actually happening is pretty well established. What more is there to say?
> 
> Here are the facts: TiVo owners running TE4 (Hydra) are seeing streaming pre-roll video ads that TiVo is inserting before they begin playback of their regular TV recordings. It's been confirmed by TiVo via Twitter with remarks that seem to indicate that this is now normal behavior and not some sort of limited experiment that isn't ultimately intended for their existing retail customers. The ads can be skipped/FF past, although (at least right now), doing so is a bit sluggish.


I don't know that there's been what you could say ALL TiVo owners running TE4 have the same experience! Until there's a 'majority of TE4 users that can confirm your implied 'FACT' actually is more speculation!!!


----------



## Charles R

NashGuy said:


> What more is there to say?


So far it has "hit" two users I believe and the tweet doesn't go along with their take... the story is far from written and for once it would be nice to read a thread focused on current events not ramblings of little or no interest.


----------



## NashGuy

WVZR1 said:


> I don't know that there's been what you could say ALL TiVo owners running TE4 have the same experience! Until there's a 'majority of TE4 users that can confirm your implied 'FACT' actually is more speculation!!!


Learn to read, sir. Nowhere in my statement does it say ALL TiVo owners running TE4 are seeing these ads. (Yet, anyway.) How could anyone know with any certainty whether a certain feature/bug is affecting ALL TiVo users anyhow? What we do know is that several folks on TE4 (but, I believe, none on TE3) have confirmed that they are seeing these pre-roll ads. And TiVo has confirmed that this is happening and that's it's apparently not some isolated freak thing.


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> So far it has "hit" two users I believe and the tweet doesn't go along with their take... the story is far from written and for once it would be nice to read a thread focused on current events not ramblings of little or no interest.


OK, Charles R. You go ahead and tell us what the story is. Please. Add to the conversation here on this thread. Enlighten us. What do you have to say?


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> My take... since virtually the rest of the world is doing such I can't logically get upset. And in reality I'm saving more time with AutoSkip - as in if I had to pick both or neither I'd pick both. Although I don't think it will be implemented in all devices. As an example with Amazon's Kindle you can purchase the same tablet with ads (you pay less) or without ads.
> 
> If they were to show up illogically I might run out (next decent sale) and purchase a Recast to see how happy I could be with it. Logically even the reduced image quality would be enough to prevent me from switching... but often logical doesn't win out.
> 
> PS: I run pi-hole on an ODROID XU4 (Raspberry Pi Killer) along with many other apps (Plex Media Server / MySQL Server / Print Server / Media Server / Etc) and it blocks roughly 27% of my DNS requests (ads and or tracking sites).


Sorry, Charles R. but this post simply doesn't belong on this thread. Why are you posting about the Recast? And the Kindle? And something called the ODROID XU4? Those things have nothing at all to do with what this thread is about.

Please stick to the story at hand or refrain from posting.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> Learn to read, sir. Nowhere in my statement does it say ALL TiVo owners running TE4 are seeing these ads. (Yet, anyway.) How could anyone know with any certainty whether a certain feature/bug is affecting ALL TiVo users anyhow? What we do know is that several folks on TE4 (but, I believe, none on TE3) have confirmed that they are seeing these pre-roll ads. And TiVo has confirmed that this is happening and that's it's apparently not some isolated freak thing.


I did READ and nowhere do you mention 'SOME' - the TWEET actually mentions 'SOME DVR' recordings and not all!!!

You're full of the 'I heard it from this guy who was told by this guy over here that this is FACT' and you're use of the 'I THINK' is maybe an abuse of your mind!! Give it a break!!


----------



## NashGuy

Charles R said:


> So far it has "hit" two users I believe and the tweet doesn't go along with their take... the story is far from written and for once it would be nice to read a thread focused on current events not ramblings of little or no interest.


It's hit at least three users who have reported just in this thread (andyf, edwinyeun, and V7Goose). And how exactly does TiVo's tweet not match what those users are reporting?


----------



## NashGuy

WVZR1 said:


> I did READ and nowhere do you mention 'SOME' - the TWEET actually mentions 'SOME DVR' recordings and not all!!!
> 
> You're full of the 'I heard it from this guy who was told by this guy over here that this is FACT' and you're use of the I THINK is maybe an abuse of your mind!! Give it a break!!


So unless someone specifically says "SOME," you understand it to mean "ALL"? Got it. Excellent reading comprehension skills there, bud.


----------



## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> The ads can be skipped/FF past, although (at least right now), doing so is a bit sluggish.


... and also possibly reboot-triggering, per an earlier post.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> I'm wondering if the next step is to roll out a product with free OTA DVR service (perhaps their upcoming $50 TiVo Android TV Stick in conjunction with a Tablo-style network tuner+hard drive). They'll use their existing AutoSkip technology (supplemented by AI-based ad marking for non-primetime shows) in order to automatically skip over all the original ads embedded in the broadcast recording. But instead, they'll force you to watch, let's say, one or two 30-second targeted streaming ads during each ad break.
> 
> Lots of cord-cutters would accept that kind of trade-off for free DVR service. Not sure if such a scheme might violate copyright, fair-use, etc. though. Broadcasters would, of course, be up in arms.


Before it goes to Court where TiVo will lose and most likely lose the tiny string holding up legality of skip. We need to find better solutions outside of TiVo if TiVo is selling us out. I don't care who in this Community has a connection or relationships with TiVo.


----------



## Charles R

NashGuy said:


> Why are you posting about the Recast?


It's an alternative one can make today.


> And the Kindle?


It shows how it may be deployed.


> And something called the ODROID XU4?


Shows how one can easily block such ads.

Pretty much useful information with a bare minimum of useless ramblings about some possible future.


----------



## compnurd

NashGuy said:


> So unless someone specifically says "SOME," you understand it to mean "ALL"? Got it. Excellent reading comprehension skills there, bud.


Excellent grammar on yours.. Your Post clearly leads that all users using TE4 are seeing this.. When there has been a confirmed 3

This would make more sense

Here are the facts: Several (Three so far) owners running TE4 (Hydra) are seeing streaming pre-roll video ads that TiVo is inserting before they begin playback of their regular TV recordings.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> So unless someone specifically says "SOME," you understand it to mean "ALL"? Got it. Excellent reading comprehension skills there, bud.


ALL ? Got it. I get the sarcasm

- I doubt there's much wrong with my reading comprehension!! I seem to have sorted your 'SPECULATION' and WAG on more/less a daily basis! To your credit you didn't deny the 'I heard it from this guy, who heard it from this guy over here that this was fact. I've learned to ignore much from @NashGuy.


----------



## mntvjunkie

I will say this, regardless of how many people have seen it so far, the moment I see an ad before a show I recorded plays is the moment I immediately stop using and recommending Tivo. The service has already gone downhill enough, and at the point they put ads in the beginning, that's the tipping point for me to switch to X1.


----------



## Charles R

Does anyone seeing the ads have the ability to see where they are coming from (via your router, firewall, etc)? It would be interesting to know the servers (presuming they are streamed not local).

Just switched TiVo to my pi-hole (DNS service) and it's using the following during a connection.

sls.tivoservice.com
h1.tivoservice.com 
mm1.tivoservice.com


----------



## ManeJon

Never gotten them. on TE 4 with latest software. Sounds as if only a matter of time.
And they wonder why people drop stop and just do streaming services


----------



## WVZR1

I was told in a CHAT to set up my Bolt and if the function was there to call back and it could be deactivated!

From the CHAT:

"Okay, I think you are referring to the pre-roll add which shows in Live TV and recordings. Please, setup your box first and check if you have it activated in your new DVR, if so you may reach us back to remove that feature."

I did NOT ask if the deactivation/removal was a once and done for 'Lifetime'.

I couldn't call - I don't speak well enough to use most phones.


----------



## Dan203

PSU_Sudzi said:


> From TiVo Support on Twitter.
> 
> View attachment 43429


Well this is garbage! Seriously I don't care if I can skip it or not this is a deal killer for me. Right now it seems to only affect Hydra so I'm insulated, but I'm sure the comment above that said they were looking for TE3 testers is an indication we won't be immune for long.


----------



## yesno

If TE3 gets this DVR pre-roll video ads TE3 needs to get auto-skip.


----------



## arglebargle2

Dammit! I just got home from work, checked out one of my recordings and sure enough got an ad. Actually not even an ad, the spinning blue circle follow by a 'see something say something' psa.

I'm a new customer, signed up a few months ago. Never was a beta tester. Cable only Bolt Vox 1TB lifetime sub.

Adding in, it looks like its not on all my shows. A few of them had no ads, and then there was an ad for a plumber and another had an ad for a home builder. Also, you know you are in a tivo ad and not the program because you can't pause the ad.

I'm really regretting switching to tivo now.


----------



## WVZR1

arglebargle2 said:


> Dammit! I just got home from work, checked out one of my recordings and sure enough got an ad. Actually not even an ad, the spinning blue circle follow by a 'see something say something' psa.
> 
> I'm a new customer, signed up a few months ago. Never was a beta tester. Cable only Bolt Vox 1TB lifetime sub.


If you can verify the 'pre-roll ad' I was told this AM that a phone call should be sufficient to have it 'disabled/removed'. It might be interesting to maybe confirm your software version now and if after a phone call what it is then. Of course come back and mention what transpired in the phone call!!

Can you 'SKIP' as mentioned in the post with the 'TWEET' response to get past them? See post# 67


----------



## KevTech

I guess now we have to determine if this affects TE4 only or TE3 as well.


----------



## ufo4sale

Can you blame the TiVo guy for making a living.


----------



## JerryB01

Dan203 said:


> Does anyone else make a CableCARD DVR? Does Silicone Dust still make one?


According to their forum, SiliconDust plans to release a new 6 tuner CableCard device and DRM recording capability before the end of the year. Their 3 tuner CableCard device is still supported but no longer in production because a company that manufactured one of the chips used in the 3 tuner device got acquired and the new owner ceased production of that chip. Of course, SiliconDust is notorious for missing deadlines so who knows if they'll actually meet their end-of-year prediction.


----------



## arglebargle2

WVZR1 said:


> If you can verify the 'pre-roll ad' I was told this AM that a phone call should be sufficient to have it 'disabled/removed'. It might be interesting to maybe your software version now and if after a phone call what it is then. Of course come back and mention what transpired in the phone call!!


My software version is 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849.

And I edited my post above to add the tidbit about knowing is a different kind of ad because you can't pause it. As soon as the tivo reached my recording i could pause right away.


----------



## NorthAlabama

ufo4sale said:


> Can you blame the TiVo guy for making a living.


after charging premium prices to allow me to avoid this very same irritation? yep, you bet.


----------



## Joe3

yesno said:


> If TE3 gets this DVR pre-roll video ads TE3 needs to get auto-skip.


*No! We need to get organized. If this **** is true. We need to get smart. We need to protest. 
*
This is how I propose to do it. Those of us who are sitting on old TiVo's in the closet, start sending them to TiVo without a return address or better yet, fake one. But hit it few times with a hammer and rendered it totally unrepairable. Then as Tivo **** spreads and if these ads spread to all TiVo consumers, start, sending our oldest TiVo models to TiVo and render it unrepairable as well. And if TiVo still cannot hear us, start canceling, send them your TiVo and render it unrepairable after stripping it of course and move to the best alternative. Start making use of our TiVos gathering dust in basements and closets. Put them to good use!

Com'on, man let's threaten to do this and do it if TiVo gives us no choice.
Con'on who's in


----------



## arglebargle2

I just got off the phone with technical support. He said there is no way to turn off that feature. If I dont want to see the ad I can press skip.

After I got a bit more heated than I would have liked, he did say they are working on a setting to turn it off. I don't know if he said that because I was being umm a bit stern in my tone.

He also said they are getting a lot of calls about it.

@krkaufman I posted my version above. I don't know how to tell TE3 from 4 but I assume it was 4 because it was new equipment and I didnt downgrade.


----------



## dslunceford

....and I just moved everything over to Hydra a few weeks back, moving to a new Bolt and Mini Vox purchased just Sunday. Oof.

Here's the thing. If it actually worked unobtrusively, and the tradeoff was autoskipping three 3+minute blocks of commercials in return for a 15 second at the beginning of a show, then maybe. BUT, that's not the device/experience and trade off that anyone made when purchasing existing products.


----------



## krkaufman

arglebargle2 said:


> @krkaufman I posted my version above. I don't know how to tell TE3 from 4 but I assume it was 4 because it was new equipment and I didnt downgrade.


Yeah, I deleted my question once I saw your reply. You're running Hydra/TE4/21.*, the "New TiVo Experience."


----------



## Charles R

Joe3 said:


> And if TiVo still cannot hear us, start canceling, send them your TiVo and render it unrepairable after stripping it of course and move to the best alternative.


What do you consider the "best alternative"? Wondering if it would in fact be better... if not I'll certainly not punish myself by using it.


----------



## WVZR1

arglebargle2 said:


> I just got off the phone with technical support. He said there is no way to turn off that feature. If I dont want to see the ad I can press skip.
> 
> After I got a bit more heated than I would have liked, he did say they are working on a setting to turn it off. I don't know if he said that because I was being umm a bit stern in my tone.
> 
> He also said they are getting a lot of calls about it.
> 
> @krkaufman I posted my version above. I don't know how to tell TE3 from 4 but I assume it was 4 because it was new equipment and I didnt downgrade.


In my CHAT I was TOLD that there certainly is/was - I'm not going to post my CHAT (I DO HAVE) but for sure I was told to unbox, connect and activate. If the ads appeared 'CALL AND WE'LL REMOVE THAT FEATURE'. They told you many calls and after everyone else has 'grabbed' the info and 'editorialized' it I believe they'll need to address it to the multitudes!!

Mine is remaining in the 'wrap' until they've addressed it.


----------



## JackMcC

Next, they'll be having you fill out surveys monthly for the priviledge of avoiding ads.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## arglebargle2

WVZR1 said:


> In my CHAT I was TOLD that there certainly is/was - I'm not going to post my CHAT (I DO HAVE) but for sure I was told to unbox, connect and activate. If the ads appeared 'CALL AND WE'LL REMOVE THAT FEATURE'


Maybe the guy I talked to didn't know about that? He put me on hold for a while to look into it and came back with the answer. But the answer was definitive (or so it seemed.) I asked about extending my return period so I could send it all back and he said he cant deal with that I'd need to call customer service, he is just technical support.

I'm not sure what to do now.


----------



## WVZR1

arglebargle2 said:


> Maybe the guy I talked to didn't know about that? He put me on hold for a while to look into it and came back with the answer. But the answer was definitive (or so it seemed.) I asked about extending my return period so I could send it all back and he said he cant deal with that I'd need to call customer service, he is just technical support.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do now.


I'd think it interesting that since you've got it use and maybe mention your thoughts. I've never used TE4/21.* so I can't tell what to expect. Is it in fact a simple 'SKIP' to get to the 'DVR EVENT'! maybe express your displeasure in a CHAT where you'll be asked for the DVR ID etc, you'll be able to save the CHAT and that I'd say documents your displeasure. In a CHAT ENTRY I'd add the DVR ID, 21.* info etc.

How great a nuisance is it? You've Bolt and a couple mini, no mini just Bolt or what other TiVo hardware. Service provider & zip code? Were ads for 'locals'?


----------



## Joe3

dslunceford said:


> ....and I just moved everything over to Hydra a few weeks back, moving to a new Bolt and Mini Vox purchased just Sunday. Oof.
> 
> Here's the thing. If it actually worked unobtrusively, and the tradeoff was autoskipping three 3+minute blocks of commercials in return for a 15 second at the beginning of a show, then maybe. BUT, that's not the device/experience and trade off that anyone made when purchasing existing products.


No maybe, the Court will lean over the bench and say to TiVo, now let me get this straight. You want to take away bought ads that sponsors the show and replace it with your ads so you can keep all the money. Let's do this before I throw your ass out of my Court. You have to pay those sponsors for the skip.


----------



## Sobeer

Called Tivo technical support 877-367-8486, they told me that they would disable the ads. But it could take up to 72 hours to be complete. I told them that I pay for Tivo to be able to skip ads and should not have ads before my recordings. They also stated that I could can skip there ads, and I said that is completely unacceptable. Support was very polite and apologetic and told me that they will fix it.


----------



## arglebargle2

WVZR1 said:


> I'd think it interesting that since you've got it use and maybe mention your thoughts. I've never used TE4/21.* so I can't tell what to expect. Is it in fact a simple 'SKIP' to get to the 'DVR EVENT'! maybe express your displeasure in a CHAT where you'll be asked for the DVR ID etc, you'll be able to save the CHAT and that I'd say documents your displeasure. In a CHAT ENTRY I'd add the DVR ID, 21.* info etc.
> 
> How great a nuisance is it?


Like someone said earlier, you have to wait for the spinning circle to load, and then press skip. Maybe adds 5 seconds?

The real irritant is how much I spent to better avoid ads (and rental fees) only to have the company I gave that money to serve ads at me.

If I had known tivo was going to be an ad filled experience I wouldn't have even considered it. (I also have 'sponsored' items on the big list of shows you see when you push the tivo button. There aren't any now or I'd take a picture)


----------



## arglebargle2

Sobeer said:


> Called Tivo technical support 877-367-8486, they told me that they would disable the ads. But it could take up to 72 hours to be complete. I told them that I pay for Tivo to be able to skip ads and should not have ads before my recordings. They also stated that I could can skip there ads, and I said that is completely unacceptable. Support was very polite and apologetic and told me that they will fix it.


Darn, I wasn't so lucky. Looks like it will depend on who you get.


----------



## warllo

Sorry bad move Tivo. While I was interested in your upcoming hardware I can say that not only will I not be purchasing it. I will be canceling my Tivo subscription and parting ways with your horrific company. I refuse to pay 14.99.month to get additional advertisements sent to my tv.


----------



## Dan203

I tried my Bolt OTA with Hydra and don't have the pre-roll. I never use that one directly anyway, but it's the only one I've got that has Hydra. Hopefully TE3 will be immune and I won't have to worry about it.


----------



## Joe3

WVZR1 said:


> In my CHAT I was TOLD that there certainly is/was - I'm not going to post my CHAT (I DO HAVE) but for sure I was told to unbox, connect and activate. If the ads appeared 'CALL AND WE'LL REMOVE THAT FEATURE'. They told you many calls and after everyone else has 'grabbed' the info and 'editorialized' it I believe they'll need to address it to the multitudes!!
> 
> Mine is remaining in the 'wrap' until they've addressed it.


Ok, this another thing we can do. Find a dead horse. Grab its head. Send it to TiVo. We write on yellow Post-it the word, "Capeesh?"

Chat nothing, they'll get the message.


----------



## Agebt6ee

They just bit the hand that feeds them, so it's time for them to starve.

I see people getting angry at each other, so let's all direct our anger in the correct direction. THE LYING TWO FACED TIVO! I will spread the word to not buy anything they make unless they reverse thia, as they are currently developing a history of screwing their customers for profit. If I am correct, they have long relied on repeat customers, so we could make a difference. I was planning on a new device, I have 4 things they have made, but now am seriously looking at YouTube TV. If I am going to watch ads, no way I am buying premium devices to do it. Selling my 3 lifetime TiVos will pay for a lot of YouTube TV. (Although they have now found a way to kill those resale values I guess.)
[Proverbially] Light your torches! Sharpen the Pitchforks!


----------



## snerd

krkaufman said:


> Yeah, I deleted my question once I saw your reply. You're running Hydra/TE4/21.*, the "New TiVo Experience."


Technically, if you've never been screwed by TiVo before, then pre-roll ads are surely a "New TiVo Experience".


----------



## eherberg

Agebt6ee said:


> If I am correct, they have long relied on repeat customers, so we could make a difference


TiVo depends on MSO business. Retail customers barely pay for an ivory back-scratcher for the boardroom. I'm sure after seeing the Brinks trucks backing up to the streaming businesses, they may not care much what the few dinosaurs left in retail feel about pre-roll. And if an MSO gets a cut from a pre-roll, they may be motivated to sign on w/TiVo - especially the smaller MSO companies. At this point, if somebody is still with traditional cable, they'll either stay there or take the forced ads of the cable-like alternatives.

However, with a possible shift in TiVo toward streaming themselves soon after company split-up, it does seem like a better fit down that market path with an audience that has already proven they will accept it.


----------



## trip1eX

I tried 4 or 5 different shows on my Roamio Plus with Hydra and didn't get an ad.


----------



## Rob75

Charles R said:


> Does anyone seeing the ads have the ability to see where they are coming from (via your router, firewall, etc)? It would be interesting to know the servers (presuming they are streamed not local).
> 
> Just switched TiVo to my pi-hole (DNS service) and it's using the following during a connection.
> 
> sls.tivoservice.com
> h1.tivoservice.com
> mm1.tivoservice.com


Interested in this. I don't own a PyHole but would like to hear more if you have additional findings.

Seriously though, we have Disney+ coming out, Apple TV+ coming out. The market is becoming even more saturated with options. THIS is the strategic move Tivo wants to make?? Good luck with that.

P.S. FU Tivo


----------



## longrider

i wonder if this is only cable TiVos? I use my Bolt strictly for OTA and I have seen no ads. Granted right now I am only recording one show a week plus the late news every night but I have watched every recording and no ads


----------



## Rob75

I just checked some recent recordings and can confirm the blue spinning circle, 3 seconds of blank black screen delay, with pause icon in upper right hand corner. So perhaps this is placeholder logic for the ads.


----------



## Adam C.

longrider said:


> i wonder if this is only cable TiVos? I use my Bolt strictly for OTA and I have seen no ads. Granted right now I am only recording one show a week plus the late news every night but I have watched every recording and no ads


I have a Roamio OTA with TE4 and have not seen any ads yet either.


----------



## exdishguy

Rob75 said:


> I just checked some recent recordings and can confirm the blue spinning circle, 3 seconds of blank black screen delay, with pause icon in upper right hand corner. So perhaps this is placeholder logic for the ads.


Blue spinning circle is definitely the clue that you will soon see pre-roll ads. Enjoy! (and please do flood Tivo with many many thank you calls and posts)

This is what happens when you hire a CEO that found a way to monetize the friggin' Weather channel.


----------



## NorthAlabama

exdishguy said:


> This is what happens when you hire a CEO that found a way to monetize the friggin' Weather channel.


this was my first thought while reading this thread...


----------



## Adam C.

So is it only people with a Bolt that are seeing the ads? Maybe that's one reason Tivo had that big trade-in deal recently.


----------



## krkaufman

Adam C. said:


> I have a Roamio OTA with TE4 and have not seen any ads yet either.





Adam C. said:


> So is it only people with a Bolt that are seeing the ads? Maybe that's one reason Tivo had that big trade-in deal recently.


Heh, I was wondering if older boxes won't see the ads if TiVo found them too unresponsive, causing more instability. Have there been any reports of the ads displaying on any Minis, v1/v2 or VOX?


----------



## Charles R

Rob75 said:


> Interested in this. I don't own a PyHole but would like to hear more if you have additional findings.


I keep calling in hoping I'll get the new release as I'm guessing the ads come with it. If and when I do I'll see what server is serving the ads. I presume when pi-hole blocks access (by blocking the DNS lookup) TiVo will gracefully start the recording. Should be able to relatively duplicate the process by disconnecting the Internet? Anyone try such and what did you see...


----------



## schatham

They are also using our internet to download the ads. Can we send them a bill for data usage??


----------



## tgmii

I am furious! Lifetime user, multiple tivos since 1999. When I read about this, felt certain that existing lifetime would be exempt. No more tivo purchases for me if this is not stopped. Saw the first ad tonight, US Army ad before Elementary.


----------



## Mikeguy

I've been thinking that this is not really happening, that it's a TiVo beta experiment that got loose, that people are yelling that the sky is falling.

This no longer is "amusing."


----------



## Mikeguy

tgmii said:


> I am furious! Lifetime user, multiple tivos since 1999. When I read about this, felt certain that existing lifetime would be exempt. No more tivo purchases for me if this is not stopped. Saw the first ad tonight, US Army ad before Elementary.


TE3 or TE4?


----------



## tgmii

Bolt , Hydra


----------



## WVZR1

So a long while ago someone asked regarding a NOTE ON ACCOUNT PAGE! I've no idea how long it's been on mine because I left TiVo to try L3TV/T-vision for 13 months. When I returned to TiVo maybe July 20 or so I noticed it but paid little attn!

Is this notation on our accounts what their using as 'authorization' for this trial?

On My account page: TiVo.com I have a notation!

PRIVACY STATUS: Beta

I've never seen it explained and admittedly I've never asked!!! I've no idea when it 1st appeared! Does anyone? I would imagine it on ALL OF OUR ACCOUNT PAGE!

Log in and it should be obvious!!

I don't do Twitter or FaceBook - Has anyone from TiVo commented later this afternoon or this evening regarding the TWEET message mentioned in post #67.

Anyone else been told 'we can make it go away' by anyone considered reliable!!


----------



## exdishguy

Adam C. said:


> So is it only people with a Bolt that are seeing the ads? Maybe that's one reason Tivo had that big trade-in deal recently.


It's in TE4 so if you have a Roamio running TE4 you will soon get to enjoy this "feature" on your Roamio. Let's hope they stop this release from going gold before it rolls out to the masses.


----------



## NorthAlabama

WVZR1 said:


> On My account page: TiVo.com I have a notation!
> PRIVACY STATUS: Beta
> I've never seen it explained and admittedly I've never asked!!! I've no idea when it 1st appeared! Does anyone? I would imagine it on ALL OF OUR ACCOUNT PAGE!


it's on my account, too, and i have no idea when it changed, i haven't logged in for months.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> Before everyone freaks out, we don't yet know what these pre-roll streaming video ads or static UI grid guide ads mean. Maybe it's something that TiVo is developing only for deployment on their pay TV partners' TiVo boxes. And/or maybe it's something that will be offered as an optional way for retail TiVo users to pay less for their monthly/annual TiVo service fees.


And wouldn't that be nice. But then, before TiVo releases such experimentation--something which kinda shakes a foundation of TiVo's boxes--into the wild and forces it on existing customers, _perhaps it should tell the customer base what is happening_. Even Microsoft, in its arrogance, does so (kind of). I'm happy to beta (and have done so, many times)--_but tell me that I'm doing so, first_.

Not at all unexpectedly, the manner of this rollout or beta or whatever it is only causes more angst. Heck, even the customer service reps. don't seem to have the story down, apart from knowing that the adverts are occurring and maybe can be turned off oh wait, maybe cannot be turned off.


arglebargle2 said:


> I just got off the phone with technical support. He said there is no way to turn off that feature. If I dont want to see the ad I can press skip.
> After I got a bit more heated than I would have liked, he did say they are working on a setting to turn it off. I don't know if he said that because I was being umm a bit stern in my tone.
> *He also said they are getting a lot of calls about it.*


Maybe after each time an advert is run, each customer should telephone customer service, mention that it just occurred, and object to it. After each advert.


----------



## krkaufman

exdishguy said:


> It's in TE4 so if you have a Roamio running TE4 you will soon get to enjoy this "feature" on your Roamio. Let's hope they stop this release from going gold before it rolls out to the masses.


Is that speculation or has someone reported getting the pre-roll ad on a Roamio? (And TE4 or TE3?)


----------



## powrcow

I have a Premiere and a Mini, no pre-roll ads (yet).


----------



## cwoody222

I have TE4 on Roamio and original Mini and my Profile says “Beta” and no ads for me yet.


----------



## oscarfish

I'm still not convinced yet that this will ultimately apply to the non-beta retail TiVos.

I don't know what that privacy status setting is in my tivo.com account. Mine is set to default. I haven't seen any ads yet on my cable TE3 Roamio.

Assuming this ad thing does end up applying to me, I'm not sure how much of a practical effect it'll have. I pad all recordings by two minutes. So whenever I start playing a recording, I'm already skipping over that two minutes. Unless the network messes with the start time, when I start playing, I simply hit the 30 sec skip four times, or hit the commercial skip depending on whether its available. If the pre-roll ad is just an extra 30 sec skip, it won't really change that much. But, I've made a lot of assumptions about how it'll work. I'll bet it's not that smooth.

I wonder if my Series 2s just got more valuable.

Why am I not panicking or overreacting to this like I normally do?


----------



## Charles R

oscarfish said:


> Why am I not panicking or overreacting to this like I normally do?


Actually my biggest "complaint" is that TiVo didn't come out and state what they were doing beforehand. They must have known what stink it would cause and even if in the best case it's simply a "test" they should have stepped up by now and addressed the issue.

The more you're going to do something one dislikes the sooner you better explain it.  At least they feel respected (to some degree). In reality I would be more likely to switch because of the way it's being handled (up to now) than the actual ads - which I'm presuming I will be able to block.


----------



## Davelnlr_

If those ads are being downloaded via internet, they need to start paying me for the data each month.


----------



## sethmeisterg

Dan203 said:


> What the f*ck! No way! If they start doing this to me I'm out. No way they're forcing me to watch ads on a device I paid almost $1,000 for with lifetime service.


Amen to that. I love my TiVo, but if they force me to watch stupid effing ads, I will not buy another TiVo box.


----------



## Mikeguy

Charles R said:


> Actually my biggest "complaint" is that TiVo didn't come out and state what they were doing beforehand. They must have known what stink it would cause and even if in the best case it's simply a "test" they should have stepped up by now and addressed the issue.
> 
> The more you're going to do something one dislikes the sooner you better explain it.  At least they feel respected (to some degree). In reality I would be more likely to switch because of the way it's being handled (up to now) than the actual ads - which I'm presuming I will be able to block.


Perhaps @TiVo_Ted will have some input.


----------



## slice1900

dslunceford said:


> Here's the thing. If it actually worked unobtrusively, and the tradeoff was autoskipping three 3+minute blocks of commercials in return for a 15 second at the beginning of a show, then maybe. BUT, that's not the device/experience and trade off that anyone made when purchasing existing products.


No. Just NO.

Personally I don't give a **** about 'autoskip'. I'm on TE3 and always planned to stay that way for unrelated reasons, and see no point in autoskip when I can skip with a single keypress (and have to manually do it via 30 second skips on most recordings anyway)

The idea that a preroll ad would be in any way acceptable, even your wishy-washy "maybe", as a tradeoff is moronic. They are relying on weak minded fools to say "well I'm avoiding a lot of ads with the Tivo, so I guess one little one won't kill me".

That's how it starts. Next they'll make that pre-roll ad not skippable, and give some made up reason like "only a few percent of customers were skipping them". Then they'll bring in ads that play anytime you pause, because the DVR isn't doing anything else at the time, right? Then they'll start accepting money from networks to make ads unskippable in certain programs, and tell us not to worry because "ads are still skippable in over 99% of programming".


----------



## slice1900

I wonder if doing this gives networks a new avenue to sue Tivo for autoskip functionality? It is one thing for them to give people ways to skip ads, it is quite another to give people ways to skip ads and then introduce OTHER ads. How is this different from the Tivo recognizing when the network ads come in via the Autoskip signal and REPLACING them with Tivo's own (unskippable) ads? If they are willing to consider a preroll ad and customers accept it, who knows what they'll try next?

If this comes to TE3 I'm done with Tivo forever, will trash them anytime their name comes up and recommend everyone stay away. Maybe that's not going to hurt them much in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who is appalled by this does the same their reputation will suffer, guaranteed.

I could save money by going to go a streaming type TV package like Hulu Live TV or similar, the ONLY reason I still use my overpriced cable company is because of Tivo! Hell, they ought to find a way to collect a commission from Mediacom for keeping me around! Trick play with streaming sucks, but at least I don't have to worry about Apple TV trying to insert ads to scrape a few extra pennies off my eyeballs!

If people don't stand up and loudly tell Tivo that we will become ex-customers if they follow through with this, guaranteed it will become worse over time. If they can't make a profit at the current price structure, raise the prices. Offer a lower price tier for people willing to see ads, but don't force it on those of us who previously paid for 'all in' under the assumption Tivo wasn't going to sell us out.

I can't make much of an impact on Tivo financially since I'm 'all in' in the short run, but hopefully a lot of those who are paying monthly will drop service and tell Tivo EXACTLY why. Go from Tivo to the 'regular' cable DVR (since it won't be doing preroll ads) and tell your cable company why. That's the only thing that will make Tivo listen - take away their revenue and impact the bonuses of the idiot execs who approved this travesty!


----------



## davezatz

TiVo Rolling Out Skippable Pre-Roll Ads for Retail DVRs | Light Reading

Wow. Was not expecting this. We look hosed. No concessions on pricing, just ads. Skip *might* be OK if the load in/out wasn't so sluggish. Wondering if Bolt is just phase 1 or if Roamio doesn't have enough horsepower.


----------



## dslunceford

As said upthread, not notifying customers ahead of time and not prepping the loyalist retail customers just isn't the right approach. You know you are going to get the blowback regardless, so might as well be proactive about it so it doesn't look, well, kinda sneaky and callous.

Maybe they'll enable backdoor autoskip for it like we have for sps30 to keep 30 second skip as instant skip (the way God intended) vs default ffskip. 

Given my family largely lives in our Roku apps (better speed, features vs TiVo) not as huge deal for us, but it may mean this is the last gen for me in what is my longest running tech platform. I survived losing Palm, I guess I'll survive this too.


----------



## MScottC

I too dislike the concept and perhaps reality of the "pre-roll" ads. But I have to say I'm more amused by the bizarre behavior here of so many with all the anger of the world showing up. Cripes, TiVo saves you 20 minutes an hour of viewing time with the ability to skip or even auto-skip commercials. Commercials pay for a good part of your "free" entertainment. TiVo also still allows you to watch TV on your time/terms. I agree, I don't want that 20 second ad, but if it helps support the company that allows me to watch TV on my time/terms I'll bite. I am not about to blow my own gasket over this. I'll protest, I'll email, but I won't start screaming that I'm dumping TiVo for an alternative, when in reality, no better alternative has shown up over 20 years. 

Don't you people understand how much TV production costs? Someone has to pay for those show to be produced, and you're the ones watching them. Someone has to pay for hardware and software to be developed to allow TiVo or other DVRs to function, and you're the ones using them. 

I'll just sit here and watch the heads of some of you folks explode.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

davezatz said:


> TiVo Rolling Out Skippable Pre-Roll Ads for Retail DVRs | Light Reading
> 
> Wow. Was not expecting this. We look hosed. No concessions on pricing, just ads. Skip *might* be OK if the load in/out wasn't so sluggish. Wondering if Bolt is just phase 1 or if Roamio doesn't have enough horsepower.


"This is part of our ongoing commitment to bring our users the best media discovery experience possible."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha... hahaha.... hahahaha.... ha... hmm.

As we all know by now, Toyota and Keurig are MEDIA companies ripe for discovery. They're overflowing with media content. Thanks Tivo!

I'll file this "best experience possible" right along side their never-ending "smartbar" recommendations for the Kardashians and childrens' shows. What legends.

Anyway, we should all just call and ask it be deactivated. They seem to be obliging. We shouldn't have to do it, but it's better than routinely "discovering" the "media" of k-cups.


----------



## arglebargle2

MScottC said:


> I'll protest, I'll email, but I won't start screaming that I'm dumping TiVo for an alternative, when in reality, no better alternative has shown up over 20 years.


As someone who just switched over from fios, the tivo experience isn't better than what fios offers now. Maybe I should try to watch all my recordings and downgrade to TE3 or something. (I've only seen TE4, never used TE3)

Autoskip is VERY VERY nice, but there are bad things about tivo that fios did better. I was ok with that prior to these ads, because tivo was good enough and I'd eventually save money on the box rentals.

But now that tivo is altering my recordings to stick their own commercials in, that tips the scale heavily in favor of fios.

And you mention dumping tivo for an alternative, thats kind of what pisses me off. I signed up just 2 months ago. I'm stuck now with an inferior dvr that I now feel I wouldn't have bought/paid too much for.

So now I'm going to stew, and hope that there is an opt out that becomes available. I kind of expect ebay values to stagnate or go down (who is going to spend $$ for a dvr that inserts ads?) . But in a month or so if the ads are still there I'll have to see how much its going to cost me to switch back.


----------



## markjrenna

I have 2 TiVo's. The moment I see this... they have LOST my money. F off TiVo!


mntvjunkie said:


> I will say this, regardless of how many people have seen it so far, the moment I see an ad before a show I recorded plays is the moment I immediately stop using and recommending Tivo. The service has already gone downhill enough, and at the point they put ads in the beginning, that's the tipping point for me to switch to X1.


We had and still endure crap guide data from Rovi. Now this! I have 2 TiVo's. The moment I see this... they have LOST my money. CANCEL!


----------



## MrDell

Sobeer said:


> Called Tivo technical support 877-367-8486, they told me that they would disable the ads. But it could take up to 72 hours to be complete. I told them that I pay for Tivo to be able to skip ads and should not have ads before my recordings. They also stated that I could can skip there ads, and I said that is completely unacceptable. Support was very polite and apologetic and told me that they will fix it.


 Thanks for posting this phone number.. we should keep reposting this number and continue to call because hopefully they will finally get the message that this nonsense is unacceptable.


----------



## WVZR1

I'm 'rural' and in an Xfinity 'only' market, since the VOD was going away I seized the opportunity to use an older Premier and the 'summer sale' to be rid of a Premier. Resale for it in an Xfinity market I assumed would be 'less than' very little. I do NOT regret that. I'm certainly NOT happy about the TE4/21* on the Bolt but mine being still in the wrapper I'll certainly opt for a return/refund. I wouldn't think that's going to be an issue. I was told 'Pre-Roll' ads could be turned off and to connect the Bolt and move on. I ain't - I'll wait for several days and see how this shakes out.

My Roamio 3TB and TE3 should likely do me well into the future. I was offered an XG1V4 in my Xfinity package for 2 years N/C and I took that. It's worked well in my setup. Roamio is in another room with a Mini and the XG1V4 in the main viewing area. Regardless of what some say Xfinity on my 64" PN64F8500 1080P PLASMA w/17K hours for 'broadcast TV/most streaming' does extremely well. 

I did buy a Mini VOX and it's rolled back to TE3 (wonder if that will stick) I can't use VOX and some remote features don't seem to work well but so long as it will do 4K streaming on it's own I'm OK with that. I used it for a few days and actually with the 1080P I returned to the A9300 Mini.

I 'listen' to TV often during the day and walking past the receiver and a 'single' button push has the XG1V4 on the news.

If TE3 on the Roamio gets forced the 'ads' it certainly might change my mind!


----------



## mrizzo80

I love TiVo, but I experimented with a Firestick 4K in the spring because most of my viewing was via OTT sources and my Roamio Plus was so slow with them (other than memory-pinned Netflix). A couple months later I canceled linear TV service. I don’t see going back to TiVo with this and the areas they appear to be choosing to focus on (TiVo Plus). 

There’s no equivalent for 1P on Fire TV and there isn’t really even a way to keep a central list of everything you are watching, but the overall benefits outweigh those drawbacks (of which I considered must-haves just 6 months ago). 

I may experiment with an Apple TV at some point, but I’ve become so used to using hands-free Alexa for content watching, trick play, etc. I never would have guessed that.


----------



## ilovedvrs

MORONS! I had a Tivo since day 1 in 1999 to STOP ads. If you add ads, then goodbye.
I hardly watch my OTA content anyway, and already have a FIRE recast as a backup plan.

SAY NO TO ADS

TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings


----------



## exdishguy

Not only is the pre-roll completely misguided so is the implementation of it. You can't really tell if the ad will really load or not - sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. So if you try to skip the pre-roll ad and there isn't one loaded up, then with SKIP enabled you'll blow right past actual commercials. I did this with Stephen Colbert Show - I saw the blue spinning circle, hit the skip button thinking I was skipping the pre-roll, and the next thing I knew I was half way through the entire show after my button presses skipped actual commercials! Talk about "intuitive" user interfaces...Tivo seems committed to add more and more clicks and time to this Hydra interface. Pre-rolls are the very worst of the worst to date.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Mikeguy said:


> I've been thinking that this is not really happening, that it's a TiVo beta experiment that got loose, that people are yelling that the sky is falling.
> 
> This no longer is "amusing."


Hey, look on the bright side, we both got quoted in the LightReading article!


----------



## Charles R

I created a case via logging into TiVo - MySupport. That's all the "hellfire" I'll raise and they know it's from an actual TiVo user... their one and only warning.


----------



## wombat94

I've been a TiVO customer since the early DirecTiVO days. Since I switched to FiOS in 2007 I have used nothing but Tivos but this is the end for my time with Tivo. I've been one to deliberately pay the monthly fee instead of lifetime because I was giving the company ongoing revenue and still saving money vs. Fios DVRs. I've still been extremely happy with my Roamio Pro and 4K Minis.

Since seeing the post here yesterday, I decided to check the current state of alternatives. I went to Channels DVR and their Apple TV app. I had planned initially on keeping the cablecard, but found that Channels has implemented a DVR solution with cable or OTT providers TVEverywhere streams. 

I downloaded and installed everything (1 month trial and then $8/month or $80/year).

I am truly impressed. Responsive, easy to set up and maintain, some features are lacking from Tivo but some I already like better.

The best part for me is that I compared my current OnePass list and found that between TVEverywhere streams and OTA, I can get 19 of the 21 channels that contain all of our season passes - and the other two (HBO and History channel) have their own dedicated apps that can stream all of their content. So not only can I eliminate the Tivo monthly fee, I can also return the cablecard to Verizon for further savings. I go from $21/month total to $6.66

It may not work for everyone, but the landscape is changing and it is worth checking out alternatives. 

I probably would have stuck with Tivo just from inertia for at least another 18 months until it was time to evaluate my Fios subscription again. Now I'm planning to pick up an OTA HDHomerun and move forward right away.

It's been a good run with Tivo, but for me at least, it is time to move on.


----------



## bradolson

If Tivo customers accept this now, Tivo will have carte blanche to insert ads at every commercial break at some point. Accept one, and you’re saying more is OK too. And if video ads are fine, then ads in the guide are fine too. Slippery slope.


----------



## Thunderclap

I’ll reserve judgement until I see how it works on my system. If it ends up being intrusive and not easy to skip, I can always move over to my HDHomeRun + Plex backup. It works really well and can remove the commercials completely after the recording is finished.

I understand TiVo needs to make money, but I spent nearly $1k to have a premium box with lifetime service to avoid ads. If they’re going to force them on me then I don’t see the advantage of paying a premium for a TiVo anymore.


----------



## V7Goose

Sobeer said:


> Called Tivo technical support 877-367-8486, they told me that they would disable the ads. But it could take up to 72 hours to be complete. I told them that I pay for Tivo to be able to skip ads and should not have ads before my recordings. They also stated that I could can skip there ads, and I said that is completely unacceptable. Support was very polite and apologetic and told me that they will fix it.


If it wasn't for TiVo Support's LONG HISTORY of telling lies to customers just to get them off the phone, this joke would almost be totally beyond believing.


----------



## zexel

NashGuy said:


> It's hit at least three users who have reported just in this thread (andyf, edwinyeun, and V7Goose). And how exactly does TiVo's tweet not match what those users are reporting?


I am also seeing this on my Bolt.


----------



## zexel

longrider said:


> i wonder if this is only cable TiVos? I use my Bolt strictly for OTA and I have seen no ads. Granted right now I am only recording one show a week plus the late news every night but I have watched every recording and no ads


I use my bolt for OTA only and am getting the BSC and the ads. This sucks!


----------



## sd2528

The user experience is so good but with Hydra and this... they really are making it hard to see a future where I'm still using TiVo. It's a shame. Most people didn't completely cut the cord and have both cable and a streaming service or two. They should be killing it but they just keep getting less and less right.


----------



## dslunceford

slice1900 said:


> The idea that a preroll ad would be in any way acceptable, even your wishy-washy "maybe", as a tradeoff is moronic. They are relying on weak minded fools to say "well I'm avoiding a lot of ads with the Tivo, so I guess one little one won't kill me".


Dude, it's a device to help you enjoy TV better. No need to say *my opinion* is moronic or that I'm some sort of weak minded fool. That's just rude.


----------



## KevTech

I would say to downgrade to TE3 while you still can as I have heard that downgrading might soon be disabled (perhaps when Edge is released?).
Because of the software differences between TE3 and TE4 it may be that Tivo is unable to insert ads on TE3.
I downgraded yesterday but at first the downgrade sequence would not work.
I started to think downgrading was disabled so I restarted the Tivo then was able to downgrade.


----------



## SafariKC

Last straw. 

I switched to @getchannels and @HDHomeRun_US because of this. It’s a much better experience. Simple UI, better remote viewing experience, fast apps (I use Apple TV), and keeps the parts of DVR I love. TiVo stopped being a better experience many years ago but I refused to notice. Channels rocks! 

So sad to leave but also relieved to know my thought that there was no viable options for me was not true.


----------



## datguy

I have been on Appletv for years and the ad insert on Tivo I pay for is a total drop Tivo time. I don't pay to be forced to see ads or waste MORE TIME skipping them.


----------



## Hichhiker

+1 on leaving TiVo the second this hits my box. I've had TiVo since the 14 hour series 1, I will complain but live with buggy software, but this is another level. Sounds like it's goodbye TiVo - been fun 20 years, sorry you sabotaged it to get a quick buck...


----------



## lparsons21

While I’m not thrilled with the idea of yet another ad being stuck in place, I’m not going to drop Tivo because of it.
Replace it with what? Cable company DVR? Go all streaming/OTA? In both cases you will get a worse UI, and in streaming’s case, many different worse UIs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## schatham

ilovedvrs said:


> MORONS! I had a Tivo since day 1 in 1999 to STOP ads. If you add ads, then goodbye.
> I hardly watch my OTA content anyway, and already have a FIRE recast as a backup plan.
> 
> SAY NO TO ADS
> 
> TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings


I'm using Bolt Vox, TE3 so we will see. My account also say's beta privacy. I would downgrade asap as I'm sure it will be disabled.

From the link for those who did not read it and think this is just a test.

"TiVo has confirmed that it plans to place pre-roll video advertisements before DVR recordings for all customers - even those with a lifetime subscription plan. "DVR advertising is going to be a permanent part of the service,"


----------



## dmaneyapanda

I have been living in a temporary place and using Hulu for the last 3 months for my DVR'ing. I just moved to my permanent place and was looking forward to unpacking my entertainment center and my tivo this weekend and getting everything set up for the Fall season. I've been looking into the new retail box allegedly around the corner. No longer. 

In the 20 years I have owned a TiVo I have never once considered getting rid of it. I guess today is that day. All things must end, I guess.


----------



## Hichhiker

lparsons21 said:


> While I'm not thrilled with the idea of yet another ad being stuck in place, I'm not going to drop Tivo because of it.
> Replace it with what? Cable company DVR? Go all streaming/OTA? In both cases you will get a worse UI, and in streaming's case, many different worse UIs.


If you feel trapped, I am sorry, but hey, want to buy my gear with lifetime? Meanwhile, with TE4, the great, easy to use UI is already gone, plus these days we spend far more time in app ui's already...

As for alternatives, someone suggested Channels, which is worth checking out. Or use Plex, which has a horrible UI on TiVo, but new UI everyone else gets now is much more usable.

BTW, old Xfinity VOD app on TiVo, before they dropped it, used to do exact same "pre-roll Ad" business and it was horrible enough for me to give up using it.

Best part of this is that it will be time to drop the overpriced Comcast service - there are a number of live TV streaming services now, most with on demand functionality...


----------



## schatham

lparsons21 said:


> While I'm not thrilled with the idea of yet another ad being stuck in place, I'm not going to drop Tivo because of it.
> Replace it with what? Cable company DVR? Go all streaming/OTA? In both cases you will get a worse UI, and in streaming's case, many different worse UIs.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Tivo provides no content. We pay Tivo for guide and software use. Pre roll ads from a non content provider is an insult. How about Sony adding ads to their TV every time you turn it on. Same thing.


----------



## schatham

George Cifranci said:


> I'll be curious as well. I am running TE4 on my TiVo Bolt which is only OTA and I haven't seen these ads yet either.


Someone already posted they have with OTA. Their rolling it out over 90 days.


----------



## Adam C.

So this explains why the new apps and wireless adapter that were supposed to be released over the summer have been delayed. I guess their product teams have been too busy working on software to plaster customers with ads.


----------



## schatham

Adam C. said:


> So this explains why the new apps and wireless adapter that were supposed to be released over the summer have been delayed. I guess their product teams have been too busy working on software to plaster customers with ads.


Also to busy to get on demand back for Comcast.


----------



## V7Goose

Adam C. said:


> So this explains why the new apps and wireless adapter that were supposed to be released over the summer have been delayed. I guess their product teams have been too busy working on software to plaster customers with ads.


Yeah, they quit working on getting Smart Extend for Live Recordings to work too. That was something that customers REALLY wanted, and it generated lots of positive press earlier this year, but they never got it to work right, and then just decided to drop it so that they could force unwanted commercials on us instead!

*What a STUPID and worthless company TiVo has become.*


----------



## HerronScott

foghorn2 said:


> Ironically the Windows store wants 99 cents to watch your MOV file, itunes plays just the audio, I have to load it onto Kodi which played it fine. Insulting.


Movies and TV app played this fine on Windows 10.

Scott


----------



## HerronScott

Jonathan_S said:


> I'm not in the beta program, but I heard second hand that they recently asked beta program participants if they still had TE3 units they'd be willing to beta updated TE3 software on.


That's interesting (and hopefully it's not for this "feature").

Scott


----------



## wmcbrine

wombat94 said:


> I went to Channels DVR and their Apple TV app. I had planned initially on keeping the cablecard, but found that Channels has implemented a DVR solution with cable or OTT providers TVEverywhere streams


This could be exactly what I've been looking for. If I understand it correctly, I should be able to integrate OTA with streaming channels, actually record the streams, and skip ads on all channels. I'll wait to see exactly what "TiVo Plus" offers, but, it needs to be more or less this.

I don't suppose Channels DVR supports anything like Wishlists?



> _I downloaded and installed everything (1 month trial and then $8/month or $80/year)._


Plus $25 for the app, plus you need to have a supported device for each TV. The supported device list doesn't (yet?) include Roku, which would be helpful in my situation, but I can work around that.


----------



## calitivo

Just called support to return my new Bolt. They told me they have a way to prevent ads from showing on my box forever and it will take 72 hours to implement it. Got a case number.


----------



## lparsons21

Hichhiker said:


> If you feel trapped, I am sorry, but hey, want to buy my gear with lifetime? Meanwhile, with TE4, the great, easy to use UI is already gone, plus these days we spend far more time in app ui's already...
> 
> As for alternatives, someone suggested Channels, which is worth checking out. Or use Plex, which has a horrible UI on TiVo, but new UI everyone else gets now is much more usable.
> 
> BTW, old Xfinity VOD app on TiVo, before they dropped it, used to do exact same "pre-roll Ad" business and it was horrible enough for me to give up using it.
> 
> Best part of this is that it will be time to drop the overpriced Comcast service - there are a number of live TV streaming services now, most with on demand functionality...


I don't feel 'trapped' at all. For all its warts I believe Tivo is still the best option out there for cable users. Auto ad skipping, great DVR, excellent video and audio. As to TE3 vs TE4, I prefer TE4 but have no problems with those that don't. And you can keep your Tivo gear, I have plenty of it now.

Now about that streaming and on demand. You mean the on demand that more often than not has no ad skipping? And in many cases no trick play of any sort.

I'm on Mediacom with a $198/month bill for 200/20 internet service and nearly all channels, including all the premiums. If I dropped the premiums and extra packs it would be about $150. Considering that the 200/20 service alone is $100, I'm getting a good deal. Could go all streaming and save a little while giving up a lot of things I like to watch.

If I were to go streaming and OTA, it would be with my Bolt for locals and AppleTV w/Sling among others. No need to buy yet another box to replace the Bolt. BTW, does the HDHomerun and apps allow for auto ad-skipping? I didn't see anything on that when I looked.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## lparsons21

schatham said:


> Tivo provides no content. We pay Tivo for guide and software use. Pre roll ads from a non content provider is an insult. How about Sony adding ads to their TV every time you turn it on. Same thing.


Note I did say I wasn't thrilled with it. But feel free to offer something better. If there is something better I haven't found it yet.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## janitor53

lparsons21 said:


> I'm on Mediacom with a $198/month bill for 200/20 internet service and nearly all channels, including all the premiums. If I dropped the premiums and extra packs it would be about $150. Considering that the 200/20 service alone is $100, I'm getting a good deal. Could go all streaming and save a little while giving up a lot of things I like to watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


You're paying 100 dollar for 200/20 internet? That is a giant ripoff, are there any other providers in your area?


----------



## V7Goose

calitivo said:


> Just called support to return my new Bolt. They told me they have a way to prevent ads from showing on my box forever and it will take 72 hours to implement it. Got a case number.


Seems like some people will believe anything.

But I will be happy to eat my words and apologize for the snarky comment when and IF anyone reports back here that they actually WERE getting these unwanted commercials, and then they went away 72 hours after calling TiVo to complain.

We'll see . . .

Update from 9/24: Well it seems that this time they were actually telling the truth, and I'm chowing down on those snarky words this morning (not too bad with enough salt).

I am very glad that you were successful in getting this horrible garbage turned off for your box, and I am sorry for suggesting you were a tad gullible. And THANK YOU for reporting back and letting us know this really worked!


----------



## lparsons21

janitor53 said:


> You're paying 100 dollar for 200/20 internet? That is a giant ripoff, are there any other providers in your area?


Nope. Well we do have Frontier DSL with a ripping 3Mbps or Wisper with 25Mbps. Wisper is the same $100 and a bit more weather affected. Frontier claims that 3Mbps offering, but in the subdivision I'm in the reality is 1Mbps.

It's the travails of living in rural America! 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Aero 1

wmcbrine said:


> This could be exactly what I've been looking for. If I understand it correctly, I should be able to integrate OTA with streaming channels, actually record the streams, and skip ads on all channels. I'll wait to see exactly what "TiVo Plus" offers, but, it needs to be more or less this.
> 
> I don't suppose Channels DVR supports anything like Wishlists?
> 
> Plus $25 for the app, plus you need to have a supported device for each TV. The supported device list doesn't (yet?) include Roku, which would be helpful in my situation, but I can work around that.


no, the apps on the streamers are free if you pay for the DVR. It's $25 per device if you dont have a DVR sub. They tried with roku but couldn't do it because roku apparently doesn't support the way the mpeg streams come from the HDHomerun. It wasn't stable or something like that. It's on their forums.


----------



## elliottstabler

This is INSANE. I'll be calling to complain, and if they don't offer a solution, then I'll just switch to an Xfinity DVR or switch providers altogether. I've had TiVo for years, but this truly is a dealbreaker. If they stop allowing downgrades to TE3, that's also a dealbreaker. The sad thing is, they have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## wombat94

wmcbrine said:


> This could be exactly what I've been looking for. If I understand it correctly, I should be able to integrate OTA with streaming channels, actually record the streams, and skip ads on all channels. I'll wait to see exactly what "TiVo Plus" offers, but, it needs to be more or less this.
> 
> I don't suppose Channels DVR supports anything like Wishlists?
> 
> Plus $25 for the app, plus you need to have a supported device for each TV. The supported device list doesn't (yet?) include Roku, which would be helpful in my situation, but I can work around that.


I haven't seen anything like wishlists yet, but I haven't gone digging very deep.

As for the price of the app... if you are paying for the DVR service, they have a free version of the app instead of needing to pay $25 for it.

As for me, I just put a bid in for an HDHomerun Prime on eBay. The one thing that my previous analysis didn't take into account was NBC Sports Net... not sure if I can get that through TVEverywhere and if I can get the locals via cablecard, the combination of the two features is enough for me to keep the Cablecard rental from Verizon.


----------



## osu1991

lparsons21 said:


> Nope. Well we do have Frontier DSL with a ripping 3Mbps or Wisper with 25Mbps. Wisper is the same $100 and a bit more weather affected. Frontier claims that 3Mbps offering, but in the subdivision I'm in the reality is 1Mbps.
> 
> It's the travails of living in rural America!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Not just rural areas, I'm in the 4th largest city and 2nd largest metro area and all I can get is 3Mb Windstream DSL or Data capped 300Mb Cox. I actually only pay for the $80 150Mb tier.


----------



## chiguy50

The silence from TiVo_Ted is deafening.

Can you say "duck and cover"?

FWIW, I am on TE3 and intend to stay there indefinitely or until forced to change. When/if these ads are foisted on me, I will be very displeased--but not enough to junk my Roamio Pro and Mini. HOWEVER, I imagine that will be the last of my TiVo purchases of any kind. Leave it to Rovi management to make Comcast's newest device lineup look more and more attractive. There will always be trade-offs, but I guess cloud DVR is in my future.


----------



## schatham

lparsons21 said:


> Note I did say I wasn't thrilled with it. But feel free to offer something better. If there is something better I haven't found it yet.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I understand, but for me I won't pay them to give me ads and I would use a lesser service not to be screwed over. I'm on TE3 still so I have hope their will be no ads.


----------



## elliottstabler

schatham said:


> I understand, but for me I won't pay them to give me ads and I would use a lesser service not to be screwed over. I'm on TE3 still so I have hope their will be no ads.


Exactly! I bet they're going to introduce a new tiered subscription similar to Hulu; a cheaper option with ads, and a more expensive option without ads. Either way, if they force me to upgrade to TE4 or stop allowing downgrades, I'm out.


----------



## compnurd

chiguy50 said:


> The silence from TiVo_Ted is deafening.
> 
> Can you say "duck and cover"?
> 
> FWIW, I am on TE3 and intend to stay there indefinitely or until forced to change. When/if these ads are foisted on me, I will be very displeased--but not enough to junk my Roamio Pro and Mini. HOWEVER, I imagine that will be the last of my TiVo purchases of any kind. Leave it to Rovi management to make Comcast's newest device lineup look more and more attractive. There will always be trade-offs, but I guess cloud DVR is in my future.


He hasn't been online for almost 2 weeks here.


----------



## OrangeCrush

slice1900 said:


> I wonder if doing this gives networks a new avenue to sue Tivo for autoskip functionality? It is one thing for them to give people ways to skip ads, it is quite another to give people ways to skip ads and then introduce OTHER ads.


Yeah, whether there's a legal avenue or not, it's certainly not going to make TiVo any friends with the content providers. That kills whatever slim chance they would've ever written an app for TiVo's platform. And not only are they cutting ads now, they're substituting their own in place? Ethically, that's like painting over somebody's sign on the highway to bring them to your restaurant instead. No. Just no.



wmcbrine said:


> Plus $25 for the app, plus you need to have a supported device for each TV. The supported device list doesn't (yet?) include Roku, which would be helpful in my situation, but I can work around that.


Don't buy the standalone apps! If you use the DVR (30 day free trial & $8/mo after) all the apps are free. Use the "ChannelsDVR" editions.



chiguy50 said:


> The silence from TiVo_Ted is deafening.


He's not the CEO. I don't think this is really his department and he really only shows up when he's got news about something he's working on and has gotten permission to share. While it'd be nice to hear more from official TiVo sources beyond that tone-deaf response Zatz posted, I don't blame him for not jumping in to this particular pit of vipers.


----------



## chiguy50

compnurd said:


> He hasn't been online for almost 2 weeks here.


Yes, I know (I had checked), and I don't think that's particularly unusual especially with the time commitment to CES and its follow-up.

But now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party, as I used to practice over and over in high school typing class. (Does that date me, or what?)


----------



## chiguy50

OrangeCrush said:


> He's not the CEO. I don't think this is really his department and he really only shows up when he's got news about something he's working on and has gotten permission to share. While it'd be nice to hear more from official TiVo sources beyond that tone-deaf response Zatz posted, I don't blame him for not jumping in to this particular pit of vipers.


You are never going to hear from the CEO on this forum. Rather, it is in the domain of the customer-oriented execs to answer the mail, as Margret and Ted have done here in the past.


----------



## Robin

What a misstep.

I've been a tivo user continuously since 2000ish. I currently have a roamio and mini. I'd already thought these might be my last since the majority of what we watch is streaming but this will likely cinch it.


----------



## Hichhiker

lparsons21 said:


> and you can keep your Tivo gear, I have plenty of it now.


I fear the market is about to be flooded with used TiVo gear :-(



lparsons21 said:


> Now about that streaming and on demand. You mean the on demand that more often than not has no ad skipping? And in many cases no trick play of any sort.


Well, sure, if you watch it directly, but you can also use a DVR and do whatever you want. Channels lists most of the streaming providers including YouTube TV (which seems to have the largest channel list, last I checked)



lparsons21 said:


> I'm on Mediacom with a $198/month bill for 200/20 internet service and nearly all channels, including all the premiums. If I dropped the premiums and extra packs it would be about $150. Considering that the 200/20 service alone is $100, I'm getting a good deal. Could go all streaming and save a little while giving up a lot of things I like to watch.


Around here GB fiber is $50-$80 depending on provider and I already not getting my internet from Comcast - so Comcast bill is insane and the only reason I keep them is because of cablecard TiVo which is a brick without Comcast :-(



lparsons21 said:


> If I were to go streaming and OTA, it would be with my Bolt for locals and AppleTV w/Sling among others. No need to buy yet another box to replace the Bolt. BTW, does the HDHomerun and apps allow for auto ad-skipping? I didn't see anything on that when I looked.


Fair question. Having not yet tried them yet, so I had to Google it. Channels DVR does full AutoSkip, similar to TiVo, but Plex DVR does one better by removing the ads completely from the stored file after recording, so no need to skip anything. Channels also will work with Comcast over the internet without a need for a set top box of any sort- which means I can try this out now, to hedge in hope that TiVo comes to their senses before it's too late (not holding my breath)...


----------



## NashGuy

arglebargle2 said:


> As someone who just switched over from fios, the tivo experience isn't better than what fios offers now. Maybe I should try to watch all my recordings and downgrade to TE3 or something. (I've only seen TE4, never used TE3)
> 
> Autoskip is VERY VERY nice, but there are bad things about tivo that fios did better. I was ok with that prior to these ads, because tivo was good enough and I'd eventually save money on the box rentals.
> 
> But now that tivo is altering my recordings to stick their own commercials in, that tips the scale heavily in favor of fios.
> 
> And you mention dumping tivo for an alternative, thats kind of what pisses me off. I signed up just 2 months ago. I'm stuck now with an inferior dvr that I now feel I wouldn't have bought/paid too much for.
> 
> So now I'm going to stew, and hope that there is an opt out that becomes available. I kind of expect ebay values to stagnate or go down (who is going to spend $$ for a dvr that inserts ads?) . But in a month or so if the ads are still there I'll have to see how much its going to cost me to switch back.


I've read that Verizon FiOS recently increased the price for their DVR service and/or equipment rental.

And while you're trying to weigh your options, be aware that Verizon now sells YouTube TV, letting you pay through your Verizon bill. Earlier this summer, they were giving new FiOS internet subscribers one free month of YouTube TV to start rather than the standard 1-week free trial. Also, Verizon has submitted to the FCC a new streaming device called "Stream TV". The speculation is that it will run a version of Google Android TV with a UI and remote control that are customized specifically for YouTube TV. Then Verizon will have their own custom hardware to give to their YouTube TV subscribers, making it easier for traditional cable TV subscribers to switch over to streaming cable TV.

Sure Looks Like Verizon has a Streaming TV Box on the Way

YouTube TV (and all the streaming cable TV services, really) have their own set of trade-offs versus using traditional cable TV with a TiVo. But with TiVo now streaming ads to their users, it might tip the scales in favor of another option...


----------



## chiguy50

Robin said:


> What a misstep.
> 
> *I've been a ticket user* continuously since 2000ish. I currently have a roamio and mini. I'd already thought these might be my last since the majority of what we watch is streaming but this will likely cinch it.


That's a very funny autocorrect error. Especially now that so many users here are ready to "punch" their TiVo.


----------



## KevTech

elliottstabler said:


> Exactly! I bet they're going to introduce a new tiered subscription similar to Hulu; a cheaper option with ads, and a more expensive option without ads. Either way, if they force me to upgrade to TE4 or stop allowing downgrades, I'm out.


Willl be rolled out to all even lifetime subs but hopefully only on TE4.



> TiVo has confirmed that it plans to place pre-roll video advertisements before DVR recordings for all customers - even those with a lifetime subscription plan.


----------



## NashGuy

Hichhiker said:


> I fear the market is about to be flooded with used TiVo gear :-(


There will be some folks who sell their TiVo over this but I really do think that the TiVo users who post on this forum are probably more pissed off about the pre-roll video ad than is the average TiVo user. Not that I'm defending what TiVo is doing here. Especially for DVRs with paid lifetime service, they should never implement this program in the first place, even if it can be removed after making a phone call.

If you want to talk about when eBay will be flooded with used TiVos, that'll be if/when a significant number of Comcast cable channels are no longer compatible with CableCARD...


----------



## JoeKustra

chiguy50 said:


> The silence from TiVo_Ted is deafening.
> Can you say "duck and cover"?


His last visit was 9/9, so he's been busy.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> I've read that Verizon FiOS recently increased the price for their DVR service and/or equipment rental.
> 
> And while you're trying to weigh your options, be aware that Verizon now sells YouTube TV, letting you pay through your Verizon bill. Earlier this summer, they were giving new FiOS internet subscribers one free month of YouTube TV to start rather than the standard 1-week free trial. Also, Verizon has submitted to the FCC a new streaming device called "Stream TV". The speculation is that it will run a version of Google Android TV with a UI and remote control that are customized specifically for YouTube TV. Then Verizon will have their own custom hardware to give to their YouTube TV subscribers, making it easier for traditional cable TV subscribers to switch over to streaming cable TV.
> 
> Sure Looks Like Verizon has a Streaming TV Box on the Way
> 
> YouTube TV (and all the streaming cable TV services, really) have their own set of trade-offs versus using traditional cable TV with a TiVo. But with TiVo now streaming ads to their users, it might tip the scales in favor of another option...


YOU'VE READ!!!!!! - AGAIN - YOU're stressing the 'brain' *STOP IT*

I'll wait for some 'first hand' responses!!! The mentions of 'HERE TO STAY - NO ALTERNATIVE' seem to all be from *so called sources* via another guy who told my cousin who told her sister but swears it to be correct because she heard it on the Internet!!!


----------



## reneg

wmcbrine said:


> This could be exactly what I've been looking for. If I understand it correctly, I should be able to integrate OTA with streaming channels, actually record the streams, and skip ads on all channels. I'll wait to see exactly what "TiVo Plus" offers, but, it needs to be more or less this.
> 
> I don't suppose Channels DVR supports anything like Wishlists?
> 
> Plus $25 for the app, plus you need to have a supported device for each TV. The supported device list doesn't (yet?) include Roku, which would be helpful in my situation, but I can work around that.


I've had Channels DVR for over a month now. It's certainly worth a look with their free 30-day trial. You can integrate multiple providers with Channels DVR. I have OTA & Xfinity support set up right now. I'm still using my Tivos on TE3 while I evaluate Channels DVR. I get 120 channels from Xfinity, no locals or premium channels. OTA for locals via HDHomerun Quatro. Channels DVR picks up channels that are available through TV Everywhere support. It does not require cablecard. See thestreamable.com/tv-everywhere-apps for TV Everywhere channels with various streaming providers. Cable provider support for TV Everywhere varies.

Channels DVR records the streams to your server of which they support a wide variety of platforms and the recorded programs are available to edit. It has an option to run Comskip on recorded programs to allow automatic commercial skipping. Channels supports Advanced Passes that allow you to specify some keyword matches. Not as elegant as Tivo wishlists, but seems to work well enough for my wishlists.

Channels DVR UI is not as polished as Tivo (TE3), but the development team is active in their forums. If you're data cap limited, recorded shows will count towards your data cap. Even with the extensive recording I'm doing, I am not close to hitting my 1TB cap. I'm running 1-5-2.0 GB/hour for recorded show.

On topic: If the pre-roll ads hit my TE3 Tivos, it's a dealbreaker for me as I'm already looking for a viable option to dump Xfinity that allows me access to recordings for archival purposes.


----------



## lparsons21

osu1991 said:


> Not just rural areas, I'm in the 4th largest city and 2nd largest metro area and all I can get is 3Mb Windstream DSL or Data capped 300Mb Cox. I actually only pay for the $80 150Mb tier.


Mediacom has data caps that vary depending on speed you sub to.
100/10 = 1TB
200/20 = 2TB

I'm on the 200 because I was going over 1TB a fair amount of time. Cost differential is about $10/bump

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dobbie1

I've owned TiVo's (many) since 2002, all with lifetime subs. I will not be replacing any from now own. There are many streaming options without commercials for any show that I want to watch. It was good while it lasted.


----------



## NashGuy

WVZR1 said:


> YOU'VE READ!!!!!! - AGAIN - YOU're stressing the 'brain' *STOP IT*
> 
> I'll wait for some 'first hand' responses!!! The mentions of 'HERE TO STAY - NO ALTERNATIVE' seem to all be from *so called sources* via another guy who told my cousin who told her sister but swears it to be correct because she heard it on the Internet!!!


Verizon Fios is Raising Its DVR & Set-Top Box Fees to $24 Per Box - Cord Cutters News

Also, if you keep up your behavior, I will report you to the forum moderators for harassment.


----------



## lparsons21

Hichhiker said:


> I fear the market is about to be flooded with used TiVo gear :-(
> Well, sure, if you watch it directly, but you can also use a DVR and do whatever you want. Channels lists most of the streaming providers including YouTube TV (which seems to have the largest channel list, last I checked)
> 
> Around here GB fiber is $50-$80 depending on provider and I already not getting my internet from Comcast - so Comcast bill is insane and the only reason I keep them is because of cablecard TiVo which is a brick without Comcast :-(
> 
> Fair question. Having not yet tried them yet, so I had to Google it. Channels DVR does full AutoSkip, similar to TiVo, but Plex DVR does one better by removing the ads completely from the stored file after recording, so no need to skip anything. Channels also will work with Comcast over the internet without a need for a set top box of any sort- which means I can try this out now, to hedge in hope that TiVo comes to their senses before it's too late (not holding my breath)...


I've been twiddling with streaming/OTA this month. Subbed to Sling Blue+DVR. Trick play with DVR was hit or miss, some programs you could, others you couldn't.

Looking forward to see what you find on ad skipping with Channels.

For me I'll stick with Tivo until something more unified comes along for streaming/OTA. Apple's TV app is a step in the right direction, just need to bring more streaming services into the fold.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe3

MScottC said:


> I too dislike the concept and perhaps reality of the "pre-roll" ads. But I have to say I'm more amused by the bizarre behavior here of so many with all the anger of the world showing up. Cripes, TiVo saves you 20 minutes an hour of viewing time with the ability to skip or even auto-skip commercials. Commercials pay for a good part of your "free" entertainment. TiVo also still allows you to watch TV on your time/terms. I agree, I don't want that 20 second ad, but if it helps support the company that allows me to watch TV on my time/terms I'll bite. I am not about to blow my own gasket over this. I'll protest, I'll email, but I won't start screaming that I'm dumping TiVo for an alternative, when in reality, no better alternative has shown up over 20 years.
> 
> Don't you people understand how much TV production costs? Someone has to pay for those show to be produced, and you're the ones watching them. Someone has to pay for hardware and software to be developed to allow TiVo or other DVRs to function, and you're the ones using them.
> 
> I'll just sit here and watch the heads of some of you folks explode.


Yea, you go sit back and pull the the sheet over your head. Because it worked so well for your generation


----------



## NashGuy

lparsons21 said:


> I've been twiddling with streaming/OTA this month. Subbed to Sling Blue+DVR. Trick play with DVR was hit or miss, some programs you could, others you couldn't.
> 
> Looking forward to see what you find on ad skipping with Channels.
> 
> For me I'll stick with Tivo until something more unified comes along for streaming/OTA. Apple's TV app is a step in the right direction, just need to bring more streaming services into the fold.


If you want to stick with Sling TV for streaming cable channels, and combine that with free OTA TV, the most unified solution would be the new AirTV Mini for your TV streaming device, with an AirTV black box network tuner to bring in your OTA. You would connect your OTA antenna and a USB hard drive to the tuner and then you'd have streaming and OTA live channels, with cloud and local DVR, all integrated into the same native UI of the AirTV Mini. [EDIT: But be aware that they're due to roll out an updated version of the AirTV tuner any time now.]

Actually, you wouldn't even need the AirTV Mini, necessarily. You could instead use the Sling app on other streaming devices. The AirTV Mini is a customized Google Android TV streamer with Sling taking over the home-screen UI. And the remote control is custom-built for Sling.


----------



## tommage1

Well here is what I think. Almost any corporation will do anything they can to get more money. Especially if they have a product where there is not a good alternative. Tivo no different. As for ads, you know Tivo has a generous return/replacement policy for boxes that go "bad". Wondered why they do it, have to be losing a lot on hardware/shipping. So I am thinking they must make a lot, even the majority of profit on the ads and selling your history?..........................

Supposedly they will be eliminating roll backs to TE3 soon. And the new Edge will not be able to use TE3 at all. All this going on including these pre-roll ads, going to cause a LOT of problems with current subscribers. But long run anyone buying a Tivo for the first time will know nothing different. All they will know is TE4 and these new ads. So in the long run that is what we can expect I guess, whatever makes Tivo the most money. Perhaps they do have a way to shut down these ads for current subscribers, the 72 hour thing. But I think in the long run it will be here to stay as all new customers will know nothing different. Goodbye to DVRs as we know them, the cable card thing and possibly ATSC 3 bad enough, now ADS before playing a recording............................


----------



## exdishguy

SafariKC said:


> Last straw.
> 
> I switched to @getchannels and @HDHomeRun_US because of this. It's a much better experience. Simple UI, better remote viewing experience, fast apps (I use Apple TV), and keeps the parts of DVR I love. TiVo stopped being a better experience many years ago but I refused to notice. Channels rocks!
> 
> So sad to leave but also relieved to know my thought that there was no viable options for me was not true.


Do they have 30-second skip and something similar to OnePass? If so, I have to give this alternative a serious look. I don't care about auto-skip. Shoot me a link or PM me with it to any good forums and optimal setups if you don't mind. I'm totally down with throwing in a NAS and two 6-tuner HDHomeruns. I've got Apple TVs, Rokus, smart TVs all over the house. If I can program a Logitech remote to control things similar to the Tivo peanut, I'm good there too.

I've had enough of this **** with this company. Weather-boy clearly thinks the best way to drive up the valuation for the product business to sell it off is to create an advertising and data mining platform.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> Verizon Fios is Raising Its DVR & Set-Top Box Fees to $24 Per Box - Cord Cutters News
> 
> Also, if you keep up your behavior, I will report you to the forum moderators for harassment.


I'll SCREAM 'HARASSMENT' ALSO'!!!!! I really try to 'ignore' you but then you're with the *I read or I think*. I believe I've pretty much stuck to 'fact & first hand' experience. I'm sorry you can't/don't see the intended *'HUMOR/SARCASM'*


----------



## Mike Lang

We're getting complaints about how some of you are reacting to this topic. Some are getting far too emotional & personal to to the point of not being able to have a conversation with others. Don't get your posting privileges revoked over something like this.


----------



## wombat94

exdishguy said:


> Do they have 30-second skip and something similar to OnePass? If so, I have to give this alternative a serious look. I don't care about auto-skip. Shoot me a link or PM me with it to any good forums and optimal setups if you don't mind. I'm totally down with throwing in a NAS and two 6-tuner HDHomeruns. I've got Apple TVs, Rokus, smart TVs all over the house. If I can program a Logitech remote to control things similar to the Tivo peanut, I'm good there too.
> 
> I've had enough of this **** with this company. Weather-boy clearly thinks the best way to drive up the valuation for the product business to sell it off is to create an advertising and data mining platform.


Channels has 30 second skip (and 7 second skip back) and has recording passes (I haven't tried wishlist type recordings yet).

The best place to find out is at their website getchannels.com - they have an active community forum there with interaction with the developers from the company.

As for two 6-tuner HDHomeruns, unfortunately the 6 tuner model hasn't been released yet - and is in serious question of being permanent vaporware in my mind. It was announced in January 2018 and has continued to slip.

Older 3 tuner HDHomeruns for cablecard are only available used, but there are 2 or 4 tuner OTA boxes available and they work well from what I can tell.

For me, I decided that with the support for TVEverywhere and tuner sharing - where if multiple devices are watching the same thing it only takes up one tuner, I can make do with one 3-tuner cablecard box. If necessary, I might supplement with a dual tuner OTA box as well.

I'm using my Logitech harmony with the AppleTV client and it works well so far.


----------



## mntvjunkie

MScottC said:


> I too dislike the concept and perhaps reality of the "pre-roll" ads. But I have to say I'm more amused by the bizarre behavior here of so many with all the anger of the world showing up. Cripes, TiVo saves you 20 minutes an hour of viewing time with the ability to skip or even auto-skip commercials. Commercials pay for a good part of your "free" entertainment. TiVo also still allows you to watch TV on your time/terms. I agree, I don't want that 20 second ad, but if it helps support the company that allows me to watch TV on my time/terms I'll bite. I am not about to blow my own gasket over this. I'll protest, I'll email, but I won't start screaming that I'm dumping TiVo for an alternative, when in reality, no better alternative has shown up over 20 years.
> 
> Don't you people understand how much TV production costs? Someone has to pay for those show to be produced, and you're the ones watching them. Someone has to pay for hardware and software to be developed to allow TiVo or other DVRs to function, and you're the ones using them.
> 
> I'll just sit here and watch the heads of some of you folks explode.


Here's the thing. Tivo doesn't pay for the production, and nowhere does it say that Tivo will send this money to the networks, who DO pay for the production.

We have been told that our $15 per month or $600 for lifetime fee is what pays for the Tivo "service". Bandwidth costs to deliver the data have gone down (substantially) and they now own the company providing the guide data, so they should be getting a good "deal" on that now too. As for the cost of software, they haven't updated it THAT much in a year-over-year basis, but I agree, that costs money. Again, that's what I am paying for.

If my cable company can cover the cost of the hardware AND software for $10 a month, why can't Tivo at least cover the cost of software for $15?


----------



## tommiet

More info....
TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings


----------



## chiguy50

WVZR1 said:


> I'll SCREAM 'HARASSMENT' ALSO'!!!!! I really try to 'ignore' you but then you're with the *I read or I think*. I believe I've pretty much stuck to 'fact & first hand' experience. I'm sorry you can't/don't see the intended *'HUMOR/SARCASM'*


Just use the Ignore feature. It's better for your blood pressure and we will all thank you for your courtesy.

Your Account > People You Ignore


----------



## Joe3

dslunceford said:


> might as well be proactive about it so it doesn't look, well, kinda sneaky and callous.


Well, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's not a squirrel  If it looks sneaky and callous, yea, it's sneaky and callous. It says to their loyal base of customers, here's some mud in your eyes to go with our shoveling ads down your dumb throats because your so stupid, you'll swallow anything. This behavior is unacceptable and needs to be sent strong messages that says, not in my home, not on my family's TiVo your not. This is the kind of behavior that is unacceptable and Tivo must be severely financially punished for it. The Courts should kill the company because stupidity, their continued stupidity cannot repeatedly be rewarded.


----------



## carterblumeyer

I would say that I will have to look at keeping the service really hard now.. however @tivo I would be fine in seeing ads if there is no monthly subscription or paying monthly for no ads.. I always wondered why they ever charged for monthly as the money for them is definitely in the data profiles on what shows we watch, how long we watch them, apps we use and shows, videos and topics we view.. this is where the money is to the content providers and networks..

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## lparsons21

NashGuy said:


> If you want to stick with Sling TV for streaming cable channels, and combine that with free OTA TV, the most unified solution would be the new AirTV Mini for your TV streaming device, with an AirTV black box network tuner to bring in your OTA. You would connect your OTA antenna and a USB hard drive to the tuner and then you'd have streaming and OTA live channels, with cloud and local DVR, all integrated into the same native UI of the AirTV Mini. [EDIT: But be aware that they're due to roll out an updated version of the AirTV tuner any time now.]
> 
> Actually, you wouldn't even need the AirTV Mini, necessarily. You could instead use the Sling app on other streaming devices. The AirTV Mini is a customized Google Android TV streamer with Sling taking over the home-screen UI. And the remote control is custom-built for Sling.


Thanks for the suggestions. With my indoor antenna I can get ABC, Fox and their subchannels. With Sling Blue I get NBC on demand and I sub to CBS All Access. Given that I could use my Bolt for the locals it can get OTA and AppleTV for everything else.

That said, the difference between streaming/OTA and my current cable bill isn't enough to want to lose the convenience that cable brings to the table. In the future when the 'deal' I'm on expires and it goes full retail, I'll make some changes. Most likely not including new boxes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NashGuy

I'm a big fan of the Channels app. Use it with an HDHomeRun OTA tuner for live TV on my Apple TV 4K. I don't subscribe to their DVR service but it looks very nice.

But I wonder about this new feature that they recently rolled out that lets you locally record streaming content from cable channels' TV Everywhere apps/websites using your cable provider log-in credentials. Is there a simple way for those cable channels to block that practice? It's not like Channels DVR has a ton of users, so maybe they're flying below the radar and the cable networks don't even know about it. Or if they do know, they don't care since it's being used by so few folks.

That said, Channels doesn't sell lifetime subscriptions to their DVR service, so if that feature got removed at some point, it's not like you're locked in.


----------



## NashGuy

tommiet said:


> More info....
> TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings


Lead para:

_So much for it being an early, experimental test. TiVo has confirmed that it plans to place pre-roll video advertisements before DVR recordings for all customers - even those with a lifetime subscription plan. "DVR advertising is going to be a permanent part of the service," a company spokesperson flatly told Light Reading. "We expect to be fully rolled out to all eligible retail devices within 90 days."_​


----------



## Ozarks

Even with ads, I'll probably keep using my existing Roamio OTA until it quits working. But I won't be replacing it.


----------



## Amnesia

Yeah, I was thinking of getting an Edge but not with additional forced commercials.


----------



## Diana Collins

arglebargle2 said:


> As someone who just switched over from fios, the tivo experience isn't better than what fios offers now. Maybe I should try to watch all my recordings and downgrade to TE3 or something. (I've only seen TE4, never used TE3)
> 
> Autoskip is VERY VERY nice, but there are bad things about tivo that fios did better. I was ok with that prior to these ads, because tivo was good enough and I'd eventually save money on the box rentals.
> 
> But now that tivo is altering my recordings to stick their own commercials in, that tips the scale heavily in favor of fios.
> 
> And you mention dumping tivo for an alternative, thats kind of what pisses me off. I signed up just 2 months ago. I'm stuck now with an inferior dvr that I now feel I wouldn't have bought/paid too much for.
> 
> So now I'm going to stew, and hope that there is an opt out that becomes available. I kind of expect ebay values to stagnate or go down (who is going to spend $$ for a dvr that inserts ads?) . But in a month or so if the ads are still there I'll have to see how much its going to cost me to switch back.


How many outlets? I switched to TiVo with FiOS about 4 years ago but we have 6 TVs to drive. The monthly equipment fees from Verizon were so high, I broke even on 2 Roamio Pros and 4 minis, all with Lifetime service, in less than 18 months.


----------



## JackMcC

I wonder if they'll avoid putting it on a premiere since there is no 'skip' feature.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## WVZR1

This is the 'quoted' section in the mentioned 'EDITORIAL' By who?

"We're dedicated to innovation that helps our customers stay in control of how, when, and what they watch. Advertising is an important part of every media business and TiVo is investing in new advertising experiences. We have designed our new DVR advertising units with the ability to 'skip' ads anytime a customer hits 'skip.' This is part of our ongoing commitment to bring our users the best media discovery experience possible."

The quoted text mentions 'our new DVR advertising units' and then in the *EDITORIAL* most if not all is just from other editorials. NO WHERE IS A TiVo EXECUTIVE mentioned by name. The devices in use now are 'speculative' - several including myself have been told the 'FEATURE' can be removed! FACT or FICTION? Who knows.

The TE3 mentioned in the *EDITORIALS* looks maybe to have come from maybe a source here on the TCF who heard it from someone! Again 'no first hand'

@NashGuy - I ain't harassing you It's my interpretation of the maybe 5 or 6 editorials floating around from the * USUAL SOURCES*.

I mentioned NOT being bothered by it YET and I'm NOT. My Bolt is still in the wrapper and I've asked for a 'return' because of the commentary that's out there. My CreditCard Financial Unit does very well for their consumer and after an exchange of conversation with TiVo I'd expect a favorable resolution with them. It appears that a 'NEW OUT OF BOX' Bolt w/TE4 would automatically get the 'feature'. That was never advertised! A quick conversation with a representative that anything involving ads requires likely an 'opt in'!

A couple days into this and there's been no visit from any 'known TiVo representatives' hints that they've heard ........ I would think there's internal conversation.

*DVR advertising units* Soon to be released or what? What is a DVR 'advertising unit'?


----------



## opfreak

lparsons21 said:


> I don't feel 'trapped' at all. For all its warts I believe Tivo is still the best option out there for cable users. Auto ad skipping, great DVR, excellent video and audio. As to TE3 vs TE4, I prefer TE4 but have no problems with those that don't. And you can keep your Tivo gear, I have plenty of it now.
> 
> Now about that streaming and on demand. You mean the on demand that more often than not has no ad skipping? And in many cases no trick play of any sort.
> 
> I'm on Mediacom with a $198/month bill for 200/20 internet service and nearly all channels, including all the premiums. If I dropped the premiums and extra packs it would be about $150. Considering that the 200/20 service alone is $100, I'm getting a good deal. Could go all streaming and save a little while giving up a lot of things I like to watch.
> 
> If I were to go streaming and OTA, it would be with my Bolt for locals and AppleTV w/Sling among others. No need to buy yet another box to replace the Bolt. BTW, does the HDHomerun and apps allow for auto ad-skipping? I didn't see anything on that when I looked.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


man stockholm syndrome sure is really with some TiVo fan boys.

people defending this, should ask themselves a simple question, what benefit, as a costumer of Tivo are getting for these ads?

And like someone else pointed out, I'm wondering how long until a network sues Tivo for replacing the network ads.


----------



## lparsons21

opfreak said:


> man stockholm syndrome sure is really with some TiVo fan boys.
> 
> people defending this, should ask themselves a simple question, what benefit, as a costumer of Tivo are getting for these ads?
> 
> And like someone else pointed out, I'm wondering how long until a network sues Tivo for replacing the network ads.


And some have reading comprehension issues, who knew?
Note I didn't say I liked it, just that I won't be dropping Tivo. Why would I want to drop a product that is fully paid for to pick up yet another lesser product? All over an irritating ad?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## opfreak

lparsons21 said:


> And some have reading comprehension issues, who knew?
> Note I didn't say I liked it, just that I won't be dropping Tivo. Why would I want to drop a product that is fully paid for to pick up yet another lesser product? All over an irritating ad?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Maybe you should stop defending Tivo so much, so people aren't confused.

PS.

The point of paying Tivo was to skip ads. Now I'm paying them to see ads?


----------



## WVZR1

JackMcC said:


> I wonder if they'll avoid putting it on a premiere since there is no 'skip' feature.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I thought Premiere got 'SKIP' quite some time ago!


----------



## JackMcC

WVZR1 said:


> I thought Premiere got 'SKIP' quite some time ago!


Did it? I haven't used it for quite some time. News to me.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## lparsons21

opfreak said:


> Maybe you should stop defending Tivo so much, so people aren't confused.
> 
> PS.
> 
> The point of paying Tivo was to skip ads. Now I'm paying them to see ads?


How do you read "I don't like it" to mean defending Tivo? And if you'll look at other posts I've made I don't think you'll find me a fan boy. I just like it better than the other solutions.

I'm not paying Tivo any more so it isn't an issue for me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe3

Mike Lang said:


> We're getting complaints about how some of you are reacting to this topic. Some are getting far too emotional & personal to to the point of not being able to have a conversation with others. Don't get your posting privileges revoked over something like this.


Yes, but you are looking at not only the end of TiVo, but also the TiVo Community I'll really miss it when its gone


----------



## ProfNathan

It would be really annoying of TIVO if they force ads upon us. I would think with such an outcry and our threats of cancelling our services, they will have to think twice.


----------



## opfreak

lparsons21 said:


> How do you read "I don't like it" to mean defending Tivo? And if you'll look at other posts I've made I don't think you'll find me a fan boy. I just like it better than the other solutions.
> 
> I'm not paying Tivo any more so it isn't an issue for me.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


all/almost all of your posts on this topic seem to be making excuses for Tivo. Zero posts criticizing the move.

Did you pay Tivo to show you ad's? Was that part of the lifetime agreement as commonly understood? Was there some line saying 'We will add ad's to your product in the future?'


----------



## lparsons21

opfreak said:


> all/almost all of your posts on this topic seem to be making excuses for Tivo. Zero posts criticizing the move.
> 
> Did you pay Tivo to show you ad's? Was that part of the lifetime agreement as commonly understood? Was there some line saying 'We will add ad's to your product in the future?'


Do I need to jump up and stomp my feet? I said I don't like it and will find it irritating. I suppose I could have said that in ALL CAPS or something. But somehow I think unless I went full negative on Tivo, you wouldn't be satisfied.
I wonder which is more irritating, the ad they're gonna stick us with or your incessant *****ing about me not being irate? 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

carterblumeyer said:


> I would say that I will have to look at keeping the service really hard now.. however @tivo I would be fine in seeing ads if there is no monthly subscription or paying monthly for no ads.. I always wondered why they ever charged for monthly


At least in the US, guide data is a for fee service (it costs money to negotiate with the content providers to get the schedules, and aggregate it, etc.). So it always made some sense there would be a charge for that. And there are various licensing costs for some other tech in the box. However, the TiVo service change always exceeded what was that estimated cost (and unlike some others, they did not have ways to collect those fees via alternative mechanisms), so presumable was used for R&D and shareholder return.


> as the money for them is definitely in the data profiles on what shows we watch, how long we watch them, apps we use and shows, videos and topics we view.. this is where the money is to the content providers and networks..


That is definitely what they are selling to their MSO customers (part of the TiVo Insight offering). However, for the consumer products, there has not been a way to monetize that data.


----------



## WVZR1

JackMcC said:


> Did it? I haven't used it for quite some time. News to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I'm quite sure and I thought an 'alternative' for me on my 1080P displays would be to use a 4Tuner Elite and a A9300 Mini if 'preplay-ads' got pushed to Roamio w/TE3. I'm content just to wait. I and others have been told different than what's mentioned in all of the 'editorial' pieces. Who knows - I'm sure it will get interesting. He!! TiVo might just figure the 'editorials' have done their 'nasties' and if the flack seems worth it - just leave it as is regardless whether it was the plan or NOT!!!!!

The router tweaks look interesting but that seems like quite a management effort - if it would even work.


----------



## Charles R

opfreak said:


> people defending this, should ask themselves a simple question, what benefit, as a costumer of Tivo are getting for these ads?


I'm not sure anyone is actually defending such however a possible answer to your question is... ads may keep TiVo in business. It's not like they are fat cats not needing the revenue (to exist).


----------



## Joe3

opfreak said:


> And like someone else pointed out, I'm wondering how long until a network sues Tivo for replacing the network ads.


They're coming, obviously, why wouldn't broadcast networks sue. But wouldn't it be great for Rovi/TiVo if they do??

They want to sell ads

They could sell us out and blame it on the Court rulings, thinking we are too stupid to realize that this is what they planned all along. Oh, I hope not.


----------



## lparsons21

Joe3 said:


> They're coming, obviously, why wouldn't broadcast networks sue. But wouldn't it be great for Rovi/TiVo if the would?
> 
> They could sell us out and blame it on the Court rulings, thinking we are too stupid to realize that this is what they planned all along. Oh, I hope not.


I'm not sure they are coming. The suits that the networks did with Dish were because of the contracts Dish had with them. Tivo has no such contracts as they have no business relationship with them.
But who knows, when lawyers get involved they will argue black is white with not even a nod to how ridiculous it might be.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe3

Charles R said:


> I'm not sure anyone is actually defending such however a possible answer to your question is... ads may keep TiVo in business. It's not like they are fat cats not needing the revenue (to exist).


Please, Charlie, it's what these companies like Rovi do. Eat the animal. Bleed it dry. Then their investors move like the predictors they are to the next victims.


----------



## Joe3

lparsons21 said:


> I'm not sure they are coming. The suits that the networks did with Dish were because of the contracts Dish had with them. Tivo has no such contracts as they have no business relationship with them.
> But who knows, when lawyers get involved they will argue black is white with not even a nod to how ridiculous it might be.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yes, but Rovi/TiVo skips the big advertisers network ads and replaces them with theirs. Not how the ball rolls for big Advertising companies.


----------



## KevTech

I am starting to think you may be OK if on TE3.



> We expect to be fully rolled out to all *eligible* retail devices within 90 days. "*Eligible*" retail devices are those running TiVo Experience 4.


I feel there should just be an option in your account or on the Tivo itself to disable the ads.


----------



## lparsons21

Joe3 said:


> Yes, but Rovi/TiVo skips the big advertisers network ads and replaces them with theirs. Not how the ball rolls for big Advertising companies.


But the new ad is skippable too.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## krkaufman

opfreak said:


> what benefit, as a costumer of Tivo are getting for these ads?


I don't do cosplay, but one benefit would be the company not going bankrupt, or at least not as quickly?


----------



## schatham

Has anyone who has seen the ads tried rolling back to TE3?

Has anyone on TE4 noticed if the software version is different when the ads show vs version without the ads?

Those who have seen the ads can you end the show then play it again, is the ad still gone on re showing the same show? real world results.

Are any ads added to premium channels like HBO?


----------



## tommage1

My suggestions:

1. Call Tivo and see if they really will remove the ads for your device, and see if it is done permanently.

2. If you only have one Tivo roll it back to TE3 before that becomes impossible. You will lose your recordings. Hopefully they don't add the "ads" to TE3 as they don't do much with TE3 anymore.

3. If you have 2 or more Tivos and want to keep the one on TE4 in spite of the ads put your other Tivo or Tivos on TE3 and either stream or copy the recordings from the TE4 "ad machine" to the TE3 device/devices.

I'm guessing they are "beta testing" the ads with current users. I'll bet the Edge will be released AFTER the ad thing is fully tested/becomes permanent. I doubt they want to sell an Edge to a new user without ads, then add them a short time after purchase. 

I have quite a few Tivos, only one on TE4. Because I was testing TE4 and external drives. I really should roll it back to TE3 while I still can, only issue is I have about 2TB recordings on it. Will have to weigh losing the recordings vs being stuck with TE4 forever AND having to put up with ads, I might have been able to live with the TE4 since I have other Tivos with TE3 but this ad thing is just plain terrible.................................. And no, I will not be buying any new Tivos with TE4 mandatory, ads and phasing out of cable cards, while apps are important to some people for me secondary by far, I want a DVR, digital video RECORDER, not an $800 app machine.


----------



## lparsons21

krkaufman said:


> I don't do cosplay, but one benefit would be the company not going bankrupt, or at least not as quickly?


That is certainly an issue. Tivo is not in any kind of good shape going forward. People are dropping cable to go to streaming and Tivo has no solution for them. And even if the Tivo boxes could get the apps to make them a better streamer, the price is too high for any of them.

For example, you could get a Roku for $40 or so, add the HD Homerun for about $75 and have all the streaming and OTA you could stand. Using other streaming boxes ranges from that $40 to about $200.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mikeguy

MScottC said:


> Someone has to pay for hardware and software to be developed to allow TiVo or other DVRs to function, and you're the ones using them.


Isn't that what the TiVo subscription fee is for, in part (and totally ignoring the charge for the hardware)?

Yes, I know that TiVo needs further revenue. But why not do something, I don't know, positive. Unilaterally shoving an ad in my face, every time I want to watch a recorded show, seems a bridge too far. (Now, if this "feature" really can be turned off, that helps--but, of course, the TiVo mothership hasn't said anything about this, we only have what some TiVo customer service reps. have said. Time will tell.)


NashGuy said:


> There will be some folks who sell their TiVo over this *but I really do think that the TiVo users who post on this forum are probably more pissed off about the pre-roll video ad than is the average TiVo user*. Not that I'm defending what TiVo is doing here. Especially for DVRs with paid lifetime service, they should never implement this program in the first place, even if it can be removed after making a phone call.


Very likely the case. But the "feature" also tarnishes the brand and product. "Hey, Bob, you gonna buy a TiVO?" "Isn't that the one that forces you to watch ads to watch your shows? Nah." That's how sales and market share erode.


----------



## zubinh

Two observations:

1. I paid roughly $1100 for a bolt and two minis with lifetime. Now a software update has added a feature that may have altered my decision if it was there when I purchased it. I’m sure there are thousands of people like me. For the lawyers in the forum, what legal recourse is there??

2. While I hate this decision as much as anybody here, in the scheme of things this is equivalent to a commercial playing at the start of a recorded show and you have to hit skip. Now it looks like, you will be forced to hit skip twice. Again, I understand the anger, but is this really that much of a negative?


----------



## tommage1

I am not getting the ads yet myself, if/when I do I will test if I can stream shows from my TE3 devices through the TE4 Bolt without getting the ads. Terrible if not as the only reason I have a Bolt is to stream shows from the TE3 Roamios to get the 4K upconversion. I think I will put a fresh drive in one of my TE3 Roamios and start transferring shows from the Bolt, nice thing about Roamio is I can keep the drive currently in there intact, can have two (or more) drives, all with different recordings and swap them anytime


----------



## Mikeguy

OrangeCrush said:


> While it'd be nice to hear more from official TiVo sources beyond that tone-deaf response Zatz posted, I don't blame him [TiVo_Ted] for not jumping in to this particular pit of vipers.


While I differ with your characterization of what's going on here, sadly, that's what can happen when a company doesn't communicate with and inform its customers about fundamental matters and unilaterally-imposed changes.

Thus far, as far as I can tell, the new "feature" has been left for customers to discover at random, totally surprisingly; for 3rd-party reporters and commentators to report on, including based on an unidentified TiVo spokesperson; and for TiVo customer service reps. (not known for their reliability) to give info. on, some of which has been contradictory. As far as I am aware, TiVo has not yet said anything officially. (And yet, my TiVo box seems fully capable of informing me every time a TV station that I don't receive changes.)

Customer and public relations can be a good thing.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

zubinh said:


> For the lawyers in the forum, what legal recourse is there??


I don't think any (real) lawyer is going to offer legal advice on a public forum (specifics always matter). But you are always free to talk to your own lawyer and ask that question where your specifics can be evaluated and you can been given advice applicable for you.


----------



## davezatz

I have no inside info, but given the path they've chosen, I wouldn't be surprised to see Hydra become a mandatory upgrade for compatible devices. If the ad presentation and skip were more seamless, it wouldn't be as big a deal for me. But, as currently implemented, it looks real kludgey. We'll see.


----------



## Robin

I think I currently have TE3. How do I prevent it from upgrading?


----------



## zubinh

Remember what happened to Apple when they implemented battery throttling without notifying consumers at the time of purchase? Class action. They’ve set aside millions for the litigation. Watch out TiVo.


----------



## davezatz

gary.buhrmaster said:


> I don't think any (real) lawyer is going to offer legal advice on a public forum (specifics always matter). But you are always free to talk to your own lawyer and ask that question where your specifics can be evaluated and you can been given advice applicable for you.





zubinh said:


> Remember what happened to Apple when they implemented battery throttling without notifying consumers at the time of purchase? Class action. They've set aside millions for the litigation. Watch out TiVo.


Unlikely there'd be a class action as nearly all of us agreed to arbitration. And "us" isn't a very big number. Hoping they rethink this all.

Opt Out Of TiVo Arbitration


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Robin said:


> I think I currently have TE3. How do I prevent it from upgrading?


As of now, it's not an automatic update, you have to choose to do it, so you're safe for now. Who knows what they will do in the future.


----------



## opfreak

Charles R said:


> I'm not sure anyone is actually defending such however a possible answer to your question is... ads may keep TiVo in business. It's not like they are fat cats not needing the revenue (to exist).


So what are the monthly and/or lifetime fees paying for? Oh right to skip ads, and provide guide data. Its one ad today, two tomorrow, 20 mins of ads 3 years from now.

And you'll still be on their side. If I wanted ad's, I wouldn't have bought a TiVo.


----------



## NashGuy

Mikeguy said:


> Very likely the case. But the "feature" also tarnishes the brand and product. "Hey, Bob, you gonna buy a TiVO?" "Isn't that the one that forces you to watch ads to watch your shows? Nah." That's how sales and market share erode.


Yeah, I agree. I just think this shows, frankly, TiVo's desperation. I think that they know the path they're on isn't sustainable, especially on the retail side. The number of retail TiVo users slipped below 1 million several years ago. And I think TiVo knows it's inevitable that Comcast, and eventually other cable TV providers, will migrate most or all of their cable channels over from QAM to IPTV in the next few years. At that point, TCF will become somewhat of a ghost town, don't you think?

IMO, TiVo has no great options to pursue. Their original business model -- being a provider of premium DVR hardware and service to be used in conjunction with cable TV -- is pretty much exhausted. They know that they have to embrace streaming somehow, and incorporate ad revenue into their mix in order to bring down prices and bring in new types of users who don't care anything at all about DVRs.

In retrospect, I think we'll look back on fall 2019 as the turning point when TiVo began pivoting away from the traditional DVR to ad-supported streaming.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

KevTech said:


> I feel there should just be an option in your account or on the Tivo itself to disable the ads.


I certainly do not know TiVo's plans, but I would be surprised if that was not to be part of the longer term approach ($x/mo for service, +$n/mo for service without ads) as the current monthly service charge certainly frightens away a segment of the potential user base (and while lifetime may pay for itself over time, lots of people don't know what their future is for that investment to be worthwhile), so getting the device in the home in order to show the user that a TiVo is valuable by reducing the base cost might make sense (and once you love it, you add in no ads?). If (and it is a big if) that is the plan, the monthly charges for service and ad-free service are going to be critical for success (and trying to guess how they would treat lifetime is a different barrel of yawn).


----------



## lparsons21

opfreak said:


> So what are the monthly and/or lifetime fees paying for? Oh right to skip ads, and provide guide data. Its one ad today, two tomorrow, 20 mins of ads 3 years from now.
> 
> And you'll still be on their side. If I wanted ad's, I wouldn't have bought a TiVo.


It is a SKIPPABLE ad from all I've read. Yeah, it's new and will be an irritant but it is skippable. Just like all ads were before auto ad-skipping was added.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## arglebargle2

Diana Collins said:


> How many outlets? I switched to TiVo with FiOS about 4 years ago but we have 6 TVs to drive. The monthly equipment fees from Verizon were so high, I broke even on 2 Roamio Pros and 4 minis, all with Lifetime service, in less than 18 months.


I have 3 tvs, my fios rental bill was $50 a month. I will break even on the tivos on 3/9/21


----------



## KevTech

When you go through guided setup one of the screens is the TOS and if you decline the TOS setup will not proceed.
That TOS states you can only do arbitration and give up the right for jury trial or participating/starting any class action against Tivo.

https://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement


----------



## Joe3

KevTech said:


> I feel there should just be an option in your account or on the Tivo itself to disable the ads.


I feel I should have an option to disable my taxes, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## schatham

I doubt the ability to skip the ad will be permanent. Otherwise what's the point of having them. Do they think Tivo users are going to watch them. This whole idea is odd.


----------



## opfreak

krkaufman said:


> I don't do cosplay, but one benefit would be the company not going bankrupt, or at least not as quickly?


If I pay for a steak, but get a cheeseburger should I be happy because the company might stay in business longer?


----------



## zubinh

opfreak said:


> If I pay for a steak, but get a cheeseburger should I be happy because the company might stay in business longer?


There are many places you can get a steak. But only one place to buy a decent DVR.


----------



## Joe3

tommage1 said:


> My suggestions:
> 
> 1. Call Tivo and see if they really will remove the ads for your device, and see if it is done permanently.
> 
> 2. If you only have one Tivo roll it back to TE3 before that becomes impossible. You will lose your recordings. Hopefully they don't add the "ads" to TE3 as they don't do much with TE3 anymore.
> 
> 3. If you have 2 or more Tivos and want to keep the one on TE4 in spite of the ads put your other Tivo or Tivos on TE3 and either stream or copy the recordings from the TE4 "ad machine" to the TE3 device/devices.
> 
> I'm guessing they are "beta testing" the ads with current users. I'll bet the Edge will be released AFTER the ad thing is fully tested/becomes permanent. I doubt they want to sell an Edge to a new user without ads, then add them a short time after purchase.
> 
> I have quite a few Tivos, only one on TE4. Because I was testing TE4 and external drives. I really should roll it back to TE3 while I still can, only issue is I have about 2TB recordings on it. Will have to weigh losing the recordings vs being stuck with TE4 forever AND having to put up with ads, I might have been able to live with the TE4 since I have other Tivos with TE3 but this ad thing is just plain terrible.................................. And no, I will not be buying any new Tivos with TE4 mandatory, ads and phasing out of cable cards, while apps are important to some people for me secondary by far, I want a DVR, digital video RECORDER, not an $800 app machine.


Transfer what you need to external HD through your computer and back to the upgrade TE3.


----------



## Mikeguy

davezatz said:


> I have no inside info, but given the path they've chosen, I wouldn't be surprised to see Hydra become a mandatory upgrade for compatible devices.


Sadly, yep.


> If the ad presentation and skip were more seamless, it wouldn't be as big a deal for me. But, as currently implemented, it looks real kludgey. We'll see.


To say that it seems to be an unattractive--in many ways--speedbump is to put it lightly. Even if it's skippable and it's just a matter of a few seconds, it's still a speedbump. And speedbumps impact the experience.


----------



## opfreak

zubinh said:


> Two observations:
> 
> 1. I paid roughly $1100 for a bolt and two minis with lifetime. Now a software update has added a feature that may have altered my decision if it was there when I purchased it. I'm sure there are thousands of people like me. For the lawyers in the forum, what legal recourse is there??
> 
> 2. While I hate this decision as much as anybody here, in the scheme of things this is equivalent to a commercial playing at the start of a recorded show and you have to hit skip. Now it looks like, you will be forced to hit skip twice. Again, I understand the anger, but is this really that much of a negative?


Whats your ad limit? You know it starts with one that's skippable. Then you cant skip. Then its two ads, then its an ad every 15 mins, then one every time you'skip' an ad.


----------



## lparsons21

opfreak said:


> Whats your ad limit? You know it starts with one that's skippable. Then you cant skip. Then its two ads, then its an ad every 15 mins, then one every time you'skip' an ad.


All fair questions. With TiVo's financial problems and no clear path going forward, you have to wonder what new trick after this one is coming.
Hopefully before they get too bad I'll be switching over to streaming/OTA. Already tested out what I would do now if I had to switch and it is doable. Currently not a good enough change in cost to make the switchover compelling yet.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NashGuy

schatham said:


> I doubt the ability to skip the ad will be permanent. Otherwise what's the point of having them. Do they think Tivo users are going to watch them. This whole idea is odd.


Maybe their thinking goes like this:

1. CableCARD is living on borrowed time at this point, so we're not really concerned about how our CableCARD-using retail TiVo customers react to forced streaming ads. Many of those folks have already paid us for lifetime service, so what can they do? Among the rest who pay for monthly TiVo service, well, many are leaving cable TV for streaming options (YouTube TV, Hulu Live, etc.) anyhow. Those defections will only increase in the next few years as QAM cable channels disappear with the transition to IPTV, led by Comcast.

2. That leaves folks who care about streaming video and free OTA TV as the focus of our retail efforts. Many of those folks are cost-conscious and like stuff that's free or cheap. What we'll do is offer a new TiVo+ app with free video content and forced ads. We'll also roll out a new $50 Android TV stick that features an enhanced version of the TiVo+ app built into the home screen UI. Lastly, we'll sell a Tablo-like OTA network DVR that can work in conjunction with that stick as well as the TiVo+ app on any device (Roku, Apple TV, Fire TV, iPhone, Android, etc.). We'll price the OTA DVR service two ways: free, with forced streaming ads embedded in the recordings, and paid, with no or few forced ads. Either way, viewers will have our SkipMode feature that lets them skip over the original ads recorded in the broadcast signal.


----------



## Joe3

gary.buhrmaster said:


> I don't think any (real) lawyer is going to offer legal advice on a public forum (specifics always matter). But you are always free to talk to your own lawyer and ask that question where your specifics can be evaluated and you can been given advice applicable for you.


A Class Action Suit can always be filed. It's up to the judge where it leads.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

You gotta love the timing of this, too. Souring goodwill weeks before a new hardware launch.

Tivo's been tone deaf for years. If anybody cares to take a stand, the opportunity is almost immediate. Don't buy Edge. They're already going to have a problem justifying Edge's existence as it is, so give them another problem.


----------



## Mikeguy

zubinh said:


> While I hate this decision as much as anybody here, in the scheme of things this is equivalent to a commercial playing at the start of a recorded show and you have to hit skip. Now it looks like, you will be forced to hit skip twice. Again, I understand the anger, but is this really that much of a negative?





lparsons21 said:


> But the new ad is skippable too.


Yep, but the pre-roll ad is still a speedbump to my entertainment experience. (Remember "The TiVo Experience," lol?) Equally, from what I've seen and read, it's not a particularly pleasant/well-executed speedbump.


----------



## lparsons21

Mikeguy said:


> Yep, but it's still a speedbump to my entertainment experience. (Remember "The TiVo Experience," lol?) Equally, from what I've seen and read, it's not a particularly pleasant/well-executed speedbump.


I agree. But then I think our entertainment experience is going to be changing regardless. In the next year or so the indications are that many of us will go to streaming either with or without OTA. And currently no streaming service is as good in operation as are our Tivos.

In fact, a growing number of ad supported streaming services are out there now and I've seen a few financial news articles talking about their future. While I was doing my cord cutting experiment I found that using the ad supported streaming services was fine during the day where I'm not actively viewing TV. That makes sense as watching TV during the day is generally reruns of reruns of reruns with lots of ads now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Joe3

davezatz said:


> Unlikely there'd be a class action as nearly all of us agreed to arbitration. And "us" isn't a very big number. Hoping they rethink this all.
> 
> Opt Out Of TiVo Arbitration


It's up to a judge to decide. Companies think their being clever with this boiler plate junk in these quick click it electronic documents.


----------



## Joe3

zubinh said:


> There are many places you can get a steak. But only one place to buy a decent DVR.


Sorry, may have been true just a few years ago, but the competition is breathing down Rovi/Tivo's neck.


----------



## KevTech

Joe3 said:


> A Class Action Suit can always be filed. It's up to the judge where it leads.


You give up that right when you accept the TOS during guided setup.
If you decline the TOS then guided setup will not continue.

All listed at the very start of the TOS.

https://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement


----------



## richsadams

Been here almost since day one, through thick and thin, highs and lows, misteps and successes. Championed TiVo for over a decade and a half.

However this is a bridge too far. Raise the rates and/or the hardware price, but if this is how Rovi management has decided to "save" TiVo it's an enormous miscalculation IMO.

It's heartbreaking to say, but if implemented without recourse, that'll do it for us. There are far too many other options now.


----------



## Mikeguy

davezatz said:


> Unlikely there'd be a class action as nearly all of us agreed to arbitration. And "us" isn't a very big number. Hoping they rethink this all.
> 
> Opt Out Of TiVo Arbitration


I always find mandatory arbitration provisions intriguing. Be careful what you wish for: is it substantially better to have an avalanche of individual arbitrations filed?  (And I don't recall if it's the case here, but in some mandatory arbitration clauses, the corporation imposing the clause states that it will cover the costs and attorneys' fees in the arbitration, at least in some circumstances.)


zubinh said:


> I paid roughly $1100 for a bolt and two minis with lifetime. Now a software update has added a feature that may have altered my decision if it was there when I purchased it. I'm sure there are thousands of people like me. For the lawyers in the forum, what legal recourse is there??


I wonder if there's any. I haven't read the Terms of Service for a long time, but isn't there a term that says, we (TiVo) can change anything we want at any time for any reason? (But it probably stops short of claiming a right to customers' first-born daughters, lol.)*

* edit, from the TiVo User Agreement: "Features and functionality are subject to change. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."


----------



## TonyD79

arglebargle2 said:


> Autoskip is VERY VERY nice, but there are bad things about tivo that fios did better.


Name one.


----------



## arglebargle2

TonyD79 said:


> Name one.


If I'm scrolling through the guide and end up on a channel that had a show that ended at an odd time, say 7:02pm. And the current time is 7:15pm. It wont automatically move to the current times program.

So I scroll down, don't notice the sliver of a show that ended at 7:02pm. But thats what the guide ends up on. So when I hit ok to go to that channel it goes to the show that ended at 7:02 and asks if I want to set up a one pass for it (or stream or something). I do this regularly but I don't remember exactly the message for it.

Fios dvr goes to the current time/currently airing programming.

editing to add: I just did this on 692. Its running a couple Schitts Creek in a row that last one ended at 5:31pm. It asks if I want to create a one pass or bookmark the previous episode instead of going to whats airing now.


----------



## SATXTom

I have a Roamio Plus lifetime and 6 minis. I bought into Tivo in 2015 to avoid the onerous TWC rental fees. I just checked the Spectrum website and to replicate what I have now would be approx $80 per month in just rental/dvr fees. $960 per year. Commercial skip is just gravy, and auto commercial skip is gravy on gravy.


----------



## Joe3

lparsons21 said:


> All fair questions. With TiVo's financial problems and no clear path going forward...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


TiVo/Rovi had years to build a good product. So far it looks like Rovi bought the company to lech off the brand name.


----------



## jpierce237

If TiVo doesn't pull this immediately, my TiVos (with or without lifetime) will be on Ebay or in the trash. There is NO way that I'm going to stand by and accept this for a product that I paid for. I have been stuck with cable tv because I wanted to keep my TiVos, now they're setting me free I guess.


----------



## Agebt6ee

KevTech said:


> When you go through guided setup one of the screens is the TOS and if you decline the TOS setup will not proceed.
> That TOS states you can only do arbitration and give up the right for jury trial or participating/starting any class action against Tivo.
> 
> https://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement


I have read a lawyer written opinion(years ago, so don't ask for a link) piece that basically said a EULA or TOS is pretty useless with a good enough lawyer. If a convincing argument can be made, any contract be thrown out, with enough effort, and it has happened many times in the court system. There was some ruling about modern TOS and EULAs in particular, that there is so much legal mumbo jumbo that it basically nullifies itself because some judges believe they are written that way and made so long that it is itself a con to get away with anything knowing the average person won't understand or read it, and that's how they get defeated. So you never know.

As for me, if there isn't permanent solution, 3 lifetime tivos(premier, roamio, and 6 tuner bolt) will go on eBay soon. TiVo was literally the only reason I have been keeping cable. TiVo service is overpriced (I was really just paying for ad skip IMO).


----------



## ufo4sale

If it wasn't for TiVo then how else would you watch the life of MR Brain?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Joe3 said:


> It's up to a judge to decide. Companies think their being clever with this boiler plate junk in these quick click it electronic documents.


Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has ruled that binding arbitration clauses in user agreements are valid and enforceable. A lower court judge isn't going to go against a clear Supreme Court precedent.


----------



## Joe3

KevTech said:


> You give up that right when you accept the TOS during guided setup.
> If you decline the TOS then guided setup will not continue.
> 
> All listed at the very start of the TOS.
> 
> https://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement


No, no, no, you don't give up your right. It up to the judge to decide. These quick click e boiler plate click your rights crap is having a hard time in the Court.


----------



## compnurd

Honestly. I could care less. I mean who else offers anything close to auto skip. So what I have to watch a 15 sec commercial. Even Hulu Ad free has Hulu ads. Directv now has ads on there screensaver


----------



## krkaufman

lparsons21 said:


> That is certainly an issue. Tivo is not in any kind of good shape going forward. People are dropping cable to go to streaming and Tivo has no solution for them. And even if the Tivo boxes could get the apps to make them a better streamer, the price is too high for any of them.
> 
> For example, you could get a Roku for $40 or so, add the HD Homerun for about $75 and have all the streaming and OTA you could stand. Using other streaming boxes ranges from that $40 to about $200.


Meh, I don't really agree with this as a blanket assessment, since needs differ person-to-person, aside from TiVo not really being a "streamer," even if it can satisfy that need for basic users.


----------



## Mikeguy

lparsons21 said:


> I agree. But then I think our entertainment experience is going to be changing regardless.


Reading through comments here, I've had flashes of images from, what was it, "Minority Report" or "Bladerunner," in which the protagonist is going down the futuristic street, being accosted by ad-after-ad along the way.


NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I agree. I just think this shows, frankly, TiVo's desperation. I think that they know the path they're on isn't sustainable, especially on the retail side. The number of retail TiVo users slipped below 1 million several years ago. And I think TiVo knows it's inevitable that Comcast, and eventually other cable TV providers, will migrate most or all of their cable channels over from QAM to IPTV in the next few years. At that point, TCF will become somewhat of a ghost town, don't you think?
> IMO, TiVo has no great options to pursue. Their original business model -- being a provider of premium DVR hardware and service to be used in conjunction with cable TV -- is pretty much exhausted. They know that they have to embrace streaming somehow, and incorporate ad revenue into their mix in order to bring down prices and bring in new types of users who don't care anything at all about DVRs.
> In retrospect, I think we'll look back on fall 2019 as the turning point when TiVo began pivoting away from the traditional DVR to ad-supported streaming.


It's easy to be a Tuesday morning quarterback, and while I really do appreciate TiVo trying to think of_ something_ to assure survival (as misguided as I find the current attempt*), I just can't help but think that there are better ways, including as others have expressed here.

At the very least, I fear that what currently seems like a half-baked idea* is going to sully TiVo and that this isn't the way to stop the slippage of retail sales. "Hey, Bob, you gonna buy a TiVo?" "Yeah, I wanna watch those TV commercials that it pushes on you." 

* Of course, maybe there's a real, fully-baked idea there, perhaps even incorporating some of the ideas mentioned above and that many people, even here, might find as acceptable--but TiVo just isn't really saying (apart from some information, some of which has been contradictory, from some customer service reps.),_ anything_.


----------



## krkaufman

SATXTom said:


> I have a Roamio Plus lifetime and 6 minis. I bought into Tivo in 2015 to avoid the onerous TWC rental fees. I just checked the Spectrum website and to replicate what I have now would be approx $80 per month in just rental/dvr fees. $960 per year. Commercial skip is just gravy, and auto commercial skip is gravy on gravy.


Given your reasonable response you seem to have missed the point of this thread. Surely this is an existential threat to your way of life, yes?


----------



## Rob75

Found this article on the topic.
TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings

I'd like to hear more about Pi-Hole if anyone starts testing that out.


----------



## NashGuy

Mikeguy said:


> * Of course, maybe there's a real, fully-baked idea there, perhaps even incorporating some of the ideas mentioned above and that many people, even here, might find as acceptable--but TiVo just isn't really saying (apart from some information, some of which has been contradictory, from some customer service reps.),_ anything_.


I think we'll get much more of TiVo's overall game plan (and see just how baked it is) in October when TiVo+ is officially announced (along with the Edge likely at the same time). I'm wondering if TiVo is pushing this out now (even though their Android TV streaming stick apparently won't be ready until early 2020) in order to get out in front of some bad news that Comcast might deliver this fall with regard to TiVo. Perhaps TiVo wants to show the media and Wall Street that they do have a post-CableCARD DVR future lined up and they're already executing on it.


----------



## Joe3

tarheelblue32 said:


> Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has ruled that binding arbitration clauses in user agreements are valid and enforceable. A lower court judge isn't going to go against a clear Supreme Court precedent.


Not e-clauses that are designed to obfuscate. If you disagree don't join the class action law suit and we agree to disagree


----------



## slice1900

lparsons21 said:


> I'm not sure they are coming. The suits that the networks did with Dish were because of the contracts Dish had with them. Tivo has no such contracts as they have no business relationship with them.
> But who knows, when lawyers get involved they will argue black is white with not even a nod to how ridiculous it might be.


They don't have to sue Tivo alone. They can also sue the major cable companies who are on the board of Cablelabs for permitting the use of cable cards in devices that that violate their copyright by replacing their ads with other ads.

I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea if this would be a successful legal strategy, but the networks have deep pockets and know that Tivo does not. All they really have to do is make a case that makes the cable companies want to shy away from cooperating with Tivo on MSO deals and they go bankrupt. Game over.

And you know, at this point, I would point and laugh and say "you deserve it, you fools!" at Tivo's executives if did.


----------



## Joe3

Rob75 said:


> Found this article on the topic.
> TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings
> 
> I'd like to hear more about Pi-Hole if anyone starts testing that out.


Haven't we heard from enough Pi-Holes, Gezzz


----------



## NorthAlabama

if (when?) pre-roll adds do come to te3, after observing this launch, i fully expect my first ad to be for new coke.


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> I think we'll get much more of TiVo's overall game plan (and see just how baked it is) in October when TiVo+ is officially announced (along with the Edge likely at the same time). I'm wondering if TiVo is pushing this out now (even though their Android TV streaming stick apparently won't be ready until early 2020) in order to get out in front of some bad news that Comcast might deliver this fall with regard to TiVo. Perhaps TiVo wants to show the media and Wall Street that they do have a post-CableCARD DVR future lined up and they're already executing on it.


They've already shipped an 'EDGE' to replace a failed Bolt 're-certified' purchase experience so who knows what's up. I'm good with my TE3 hardware, CableCARD experience etc. The Bolt VOX TE4 if the 'ad feature' can't be 'opted out' for ever I doubt a keeper. No Xfinity VOD not an issue. I believe that once experienced Bolt TE4 users can comment on the daily use and 'feature' aggravation going forward on a daily experience it's not an issue! Post CableCARD ain't an issue!

It might be interesting for Edge users to mention their experience! Maybe the hardware eliminates the 'speed-bump' many seem to feel exists. A 'single ad' I doubt would be much of a nuisance before a DVR PLAY and subsequent plays BUT if an ad before each I could see that a nuisance. What would happen to the 'PLAY ALL'?


----------



## irmolars

If you would read this a little closer, the ad is for lower tier paying customers. So they can offer say a 8.99 a month plan. They would see the commercial. Higher paying and lifetime will not.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> I think we'll get much more of TiVo's overall game plan (and see just how baked it is) in October when TiVo+ is officially announced (along with the Edge likely at the same time). I'm wondering if TiVo is pushing this out now (even though their Android TV streaming stick apparently won't be ready until early 2020) in order to get out in front of some bad news that Comcast might deliver this fall with regard to TiVo. Perhaps TiVo wants to show the media and Wall Street that they do have a post-CableCARD DVR future lined up and they're already executing on it.


Well, for heaven's sake, get it out in baked fashion on introduction (low resolution ads? glitchiness and blue spinning circles? is this really what TiVo wants Pres. Trump to be watching?), _and actually inform the customers _that this is happening and what it is, and its parameters._ Don't_ simply have the tech. dribble out on unsuspecting customers without explanation and leave it hanging in that fashion, with customers to be guessing and information coming from 3rd-party websites and commentators.

If, in fact, the pre-rolls can be turned off through a switch or by calling TiVo, how great--think of how much angst and bad press, and tarnishing of TiVo's image, could be avoided by telling people up-front. Were the Marketing and PR departments kept out of the loop on this one?


----------



## WVZR1

Mikeguy said:


> is this really what TiVo wants Pres. Trump to be watching?


DJT might just call it as he sees it!!! FAKE NEWS!!!!! Really might be!! I'd hate to pi$$ him off with a bad TiVo experience! 'KAG 2020'


----------



## zalusky

irmolars said:


> If you would read this a little closer, the ad is for lower tier paying customers. So they can offer say a 8.99 a month plan. They would see the commercial. Higher paying and lifetime will not.


If they go this route they should also disable all the ads like the pause ads or other static screen stuff.


----------



## Mikeguy

NorthAlabama said:


> if (when?) pre-roll adds do come to te3, after observing this launch, i fully expect my first ad to be for new coke.


:clapping: Had to pause and think on that one.


----------



## Mikeguy

zalusky said:


> If they go this route they should also disable all the ads like the pause ads or other static screen stuff.


Are people currently getting pause ads? I got them years ago when they first came out, and then they (blessedly) went away, and then I've seen them maybe 2 times this year, just enough for me to wonder if it was a glitch. (I'm on TE3, if that makes any difference.)


----------



## KevTech

irmolars said:


> If you would read this a little closer, the ad is for lower tier paying customers. So they can offer say a 8.99 a month plan. They would see the commercial. Higher paying and lifetime will not.


I read that everyone will have it on TE4.



> TiVo has confirmed that it plans to place pre-roll video advertisements before DVR recordings for all customers - even those with a lifetime subscription plan.


TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Mikeguy said:


> Are people currently getting pause ads? I got them years ago when they first came out, and then they (blessedly) went away, and then I've seen them maybe 2 times this year, just enough for me to wonder if it was a glitch. (I'm on TE3, if that makes any difference.)


I can't recall seeing a pause ad in quite a long time. Roamio Plus, TE3. Cable.


----------



## NashGuy

Mikeguy said:


> Well, for heaven's sake, get it out in baked fashion on introduction (low resolution ads? glitchiness and blue spinning circles? is this really what TiVo wants Pres. Trump to be watching?), _and actually inform the customers _that this is happening and what it is, and its parameters._ Don't_ simply have the tech. dribble out on unsuspecting customers without explanation and leave it hanging in that fashion, with customers to be guessing and information coming from 3rd-party websites and commentators.
> 
> If, in fact, the pre-rolls can be turned off through a switch or by calling TiVo, how great--think of how much angst and bad press, and tarnishing of TiVo's image, could be avoided by telling people up-front. Were the Marketing and PR departments kept out of the loop on this one?


As someone who has worked in PR/marketing communications, yeah, I think they definitely pooped the bed on this one.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> As someone who has worked in PR/marketing communications, yeah, I think they definitely *pooped the bed *on this one.


----------



## zalusky

Mikeguy said:


> Are people currently getting pause ads? I got them years ago when they first came out, and then they (blessedly) went away, and then I've seen them maybe 2 times this year, just enough for me to wonder if it was a glitch. (I'm on TE3, if that makes any difference.)


Pre-emptive strike comment. If we pay for an enhanced tier it means no ads anywhere!


----------



## NorthAlabama

NashGuy said:


> As someone who has worked in PR/marketing communications, yeah, I think they definitely pooped the bed on this one.


only the bed?


----------



## krkaufman

irmolars said:


> If you would read this a little closer, the ad is for lower tier paying customers. So they can offer say a 8.99 a month plan. They would see the commercial. Higher paying and lifetime will not.


Read what a little closer? Please provide a link and excerpt giving you this impression.


----------



## schatham

irmolars said:


> If you would read this a little closer, the ad is for lower tier paying customers. So they can offer say a 8.99 a month plan. They would see the commercial. Higher paying and lifetime will not.


It's live now and will be fully rolled out in 90 days.


----------



## NorthAlabama

Mikeguy said:


> Had to pause and think on that one.


(in my best irish brouge)

_"ahh, i was but a wee lad at the time, still i'll never forget the most infamous 79-day marketing debacle in world history."_

if there's any silver lining to this mess, it's good to know it ultimately generated positive results for coke:

The Real Story of New Coke​


----------



## OrangeCrush

Mikeguy said:


> While I differ with your characterization of what's going on here, sadly, that's what can happen when a company doesn't communicate with and inform its customers about fundamental matters and unilaterally-imposed changes.


Just to be clear here--I'm not giving TiVo a pass about this AT ALL. I'm furious about it, to be perfectly honest. I'm just not aiming my pitchfork at Ted in particular. It's still a big company and I don't know gis level of involvement or that he'd be able to say anything to us about it.


----------



## Mikeguy

OrangeCrush said:


> Just to be clear here--I'm not giving TiVo a pass about this AT ALL. I'm furious about it, to be perfectly honest. I'm just not aiming my pitchfork at Ted in particular. It's still a big company and I don't know gis level of involvement or that he'd be able to say anything to us about it.


I understand. He and his info./announcements/explanations have been missed here. Assuming that he is allowed to speak out loud, I am sure that @TiVo_Ted would be welcome here and that his explanation(s) would be beneficial.


----------



## smark

Mikeguy said:


> Well, for heaven's sake, get it out in baked fashion on introduction (low resolution ads? glitchiness and blue spinning circles? is this really what TiVo wants Pres. Trump to be watching?), _and actually inform the customers _that this is happening and what it is, and its parameters._ Don't_ simply have the tech. dribble out on unsuspecting customers without explanation and leave it hanging in that fashion, with customers to be guessing and information coming from 3rd-party websites and commentators.
> 
> If, in fact, the pre-rolls can be turned off through a switch or by calling TiVo, how great--think of how much angst and bad press, and tarnishing of TiVo's image, could be avoided by telling people up-front. Were the Marketing and PR departments kept out of the loop on this one?


Yes. The response on Twitter that I got from TiVo Support was



> I understand. I apologize for the inconvenience. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. Please send in your email address so that we can verify your account. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.
> 
> Thank you for providing this information. If you have further questions regarding the pre-roll advertisement, you may contact our customer support at 877-367-8486 or through our email/chat support here: Contact us at TiVo | Customer Support and refer to case no. Xxxxxxxx for assistance.


----------



## Mikeguy

NorthAlabama said:


> (in my best irish brouge)
> 
> _"ahh, i was but a wee lad at the time, still i'll never forget the most infamous 79-day marketing debacle in world history."_
> 
> if there's any silver lining to this mess, it's good to know it ultimately generated positive results for coke:
> 
> The Real Story of New Coke​


Of course, a moral there can be drawn from the fact that "Classic" Coke still is around; not so for "New Coke."


----------



## Mikeguy

smark said:


> Yes. The response on Twitter that I got from TiVo Support was


Please keep us updated over the next few days, as one of a select group of Patient Zeros.


----------



## TonyD79

arglebargle2 said:


> If I'm scrolling through the guide and end up on a channel that had a show that ended at an odd time, say 7:02pm. And the current time is 7:15pm. It wont automatically move to the current times program.
> 
> So I scroll down, don't notice the sliver of a show that ended at 7:02pm. But thats what the guide ends up on. So when I hit ok to go to that channel it goes to the show that ended at 7:02 and asks if I want to set up a one pass for it (or stream or something). I do this regularly but I don't remember exactly the message for it.
> 
> Fios dvr goes to the current time/currently airing programming.
> 
> editing to add: I just did this on 692. Its running a couple Schitts Creek in a row that last one ended at 5:31pm. It asks if I want to create a one pass or bookmark the previous episode instead of going to whats airing now.


You named one. Such a minor one for a box that otherwise is horrible. I got a TiVo because the fios interface is among the worst in the land. Horrible controls on setting up recordings. Unpopulated guide past a couple of days. Slow and clunky. Extremely inconsistent. Horrible closed captioning. But, yes, it may handle slivers of time better. Woo hoo!

Wait. It didn't do it for me. It picked the Schitts creek that is over two minutes ago. Oops.


----------



## JSY

Isn't it just ironic for TiVo to promote their service with the ability to easily skip ads is now going to actually serve you more ads? If skipping these ads are not as easy as it is for the ad skipping in their shows (one button press}, then to be honest, I'd be hard pressed to keep the service as well. I like it and have supported them since using IR blasters but I'll have to revisit getting used to the cable company crap DVR and conpare if $20/mo for my 2 TiVos are worth the benefits. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## smark

Mikeguy said:


> Please keep us updated over the next few days, as one of a select group of Patient Zeros.


I don't have ads yet. I'm just preemptively striking.


----------



## sdsvtdriver

Good thing I didn't opt in to the summer sale. I have a Roamio with lifetime, so there's little use for me to stop using it. Hopefully those ads come from URL's that can be blocked


----------



## dadrepus

So after reading this from Gizmodo:https://gizmodo.com/tivo-reportedly-rolling-out-pre-roll-ads-that-play-befo-1838316059 I came here to ask how I revert back to Te3?


----------



## krkaufman

dadrepus said:


> So after reading this from Gizmodo:https://gizmodo.com/tivo-reportedly-rolling-out-pre-roll-ads-that-play-befo-1838316059 I came here to ask how I revert back to Te3?


How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1


----------



## aaronwt

TiVo Sullies DVR Recordings with Video Ads

WTF!!??

I guess I'm glad I'm not using my tivos much any more


----------



## dslunceford

Here's Mashable's pickup of the story: Viewers still using TiVo will soon see ads before their recordings


----------



## NorthAlabama

dslunceford said:


> Here's Mashable's pickup of the story: Viewers still using TiVo will soon see ads before their recordings


interesting placement of their story promo  :


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> If this gets applied to TE3 I completely agree. If it's TE4 only then won't affect me (for now).


I pretty much dislike TE3 as much as commercials. No way an I going to go back to TE3 since I dislike it so much. But I'm not about to watch any commercials either.

But my only saving grace is I only watch my TiVos for news now. So I only use them a small percentage of the time. And I use streaming services to watch my other broadcast content. Which either has no commercials or allows me to scan past them.

It seems like the Bolt will truly be my last TiVo purchase.


----------



## dadrepus

krkaufman said:


> How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1


Thanks, it is in the process as I type this. It is a shame as I was starting to like Hydra but I do not want to see those ads. I could set up Kmttg (best app ever) to download and store all my recordings in my Plex folder and not downgrade but I am doing this as a protest as well.


----------



## foghorn2

On the flip side of the coin, If I pull out a TiVo Bolt from the closet that no longer has service, will I get free guide service and able to record since I will be seeing unskippable TiVo ads? Id be fine with that, but not the opposite.

I saw one report here that someone powered up an unsubscribed tivo and got guide and recording service.


----------



## tommiet

After the "we are adding commercials" to your recordings announcement... TiVo stocked jumped up.... 6 cents. Stock holders are out celebrating tonight!


----------



## jasbur

I just got my first ad.
I’ve always had TiVo, never even tried a cable or fios dvr after seeing them in other homes.
Unfortunately, I recently upgraded multiple devices at my place and my parents to the latest voxs but they will be the last TiVo devices we ever purchase.


----------



## Charles R

Rob75 said:


> I'd like to hear more about Pi-Hole if anyone starts testing that out.


I do wish someone with ads would see what servers TiVo is hitting. I'm not on that release and during the last 24 hours TiVo has hit...

sls.tivoservice.com
h1.tivoservice.com
i.tivo.com
log.core.cloud.vewd.com

Hopefully the ad server isn't one of the above.


----------



## Charles R

Just received this response via the case I opened... I'm on a Roamio. I presume it's because I haven't been "upgraded" yet.

_Dear Charles,

Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support.

I see you've heard about our Pre-Roll Advertisements. We appreciate your honest feedback about it. These are short video ads which may interest you. As per checking on our end, it shows here that the feature isn't listed in the software of your device so you shouldn't see any Pre-Roll ads on the recordings. If Pre-Roll ads shows up, you can easily skip it using the following buttons on your TiVo remote:

• SKIP
• SELECT/OK
• Channel Up
• Fast Forward
• Advance
• D_


----------



## krkaufman

I’ll have to experience of few of these ads to decide how I feel about them, but were I someone who’d freshly adopted the TiVo platform owing to the AutoSkip feature I wouldn’t have to wait. 

Besides, if AutoSkip is enabled, shouldn’t the pre-roll ads be skipped, as well? Treating their own ads differently as it relates to AutoSkip than those in the broadcasts would seem problematic.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Charles R said:


> Just received this response via the case I opened... I'm on a Roamio. I presume it's because I haven't been "upgraded" yet.
> 
> _Dear Charles,
> 
> Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support.
> 
> I see you've heard about our Pre-Roll Advertisements. We appreciate your honest feedback about it. These are short video ads which may interest you. As per checking on our end, it shows here that the feature isn't listed in the software of your device so you shouldn't see any Pre-Roll ads on the recordings. If Pre-Roll ads shows up, you can easily skip it using the following buttons on your TiVo remote:
> 
> • SKIP
> • SELECT/OK
> • Channel Up
> • Fast Forward
> • Advance
> • D_


He forgot to mention that pushing any of those buttons at the wrong time may reboot your device, because this new ad injection service is buggy.


----------



## oscarfish

If I'm understanding the message from Tivo that Charles forwarded correctly, and it turns out to be true, then it'll be easier (much easier in one case) to skip adds on a tivo than it is in either of the two streaming services I'm familiar with.

It would be helpful, at least to me, if when people reference streaming services that they do use instead of tivo, to explicitly state whether they have adds or not. I"m finding it frustrating to look into service x that someone says they use instead of tivo only to find out that service x includes ads, and in some cases, ads that can not be skipped over, or the skipping feature is inferior to that of a tivo. I should probably Google this myself.


----------



## Noelmel

I’ve read the entire thread and could have missed it but has anyone with a Roamio seen the ads yet or just Bolts? I haven’t got them yet but seems they are coming by reading the articles. I’m not as furious as some people but it does suck. At least we can skip for now but I doubt that will last. I already know that would drive me crazy. Just this week I had an episode not record so had to watch it on Hulu (reg) and couldn’t stand the ads seemed to take so long to watch a show and the same ones kept repeating over and over. It was like torture sigh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zyzzx

Charles R said:


> Just received this response via the case I opened... I'm on a Roamio. I presume it's because I haven't been "upgraded" yet.
> 
> _Dear Charles,
> 
> Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support.
> 
> I see you've heard about our Pre-Roll Advertisements. We appreciate your honest feedback about it... _


What about "no problem, we'll just disable the preroll ads on your device within 72 hours"? I guess I'm not surprised.


----------



## aaronwt

oscarfish said:


> If I'm understanding the message from Tivo that Charles forwarded correctly, and it turns out to be true, then it'll be easier (much easier in one case) to skip adds on a tivo than it is in either of the two streaming services I'm familiar with.
> 
> It would be helpful, at least to me, if when people reference streaming services that they do use instead of tivo, to explicitly state whether they have adds or not. I"m finding it frustrating to look into service x that someone says they use instead of tivo only to find out that service x includes ads, and in some cases, ads that can not be skipped over, or the skipping feature is inferior to that of a tivo. I should probably Google this myself.


I use a combination of Hulu no ads, Philo, and then some shows I buy outright to avoid ads. Like from the CW. Since no broadcast streaming services allow you to avoid ads with the CW shows.

Sent from my Tab S 10.5


----------



## drweb

Not happy, had TiVo since series 2  ..now on a Bolt with Hydra, and I pay monthly. I won't pay for service PLUS ads. That's why I use SKIP.
If anyone knows alternative DVRs to look into, please let me (or us) know. Thanks.
DrWeb


----------



## Lurker1

drweb said:


> If anyone knows alternative DVRs to look into, please let me (or us) know. Thanks.
> DrWeb


This is being discussed in a separate thread:
TiVo Alternatives?


----------



## tommage1

I decided to prepare for the possible taking away of reversion to TE3 and also these new ads. As I mentioned I only have one Tivo on TE4, a Bolt I am using to test TE4 and external 3.5 drives. All my other Tivos are on TE3 (other than S2,S3 of course.) I took a 2 tuner Premiere and put in a fresh 3TB drive. Am going to use Tivo online to transfer recordings from the Bolt to the Premiere (I think using Tivo online you can transfer entire folders, doing direct one show at a time?). Then will most likely revert the Bolt to TE3. Then transfer the shows back to the Bolt. Transferring between Tivos directly better than to computer first then back as that method loses information, channel info for one. Since I have about 2TB on the Bolt it will take awhile to transfer, especially to a Premiere but should work.

My only concern is I would kind of like to keep the Bolt on TE4 for awhile longer. To see if I get the "ads" and if so what I think of them. BUT since they are going to make reversion to TE3 impossible I don't want to miss the window. I would HOPE there would be some notification of when they are going to do it. Not just one day it's done, no warning, "you missed it, too late, welcome to permanent TE4".


----------



## suomynona

oscarfish said:


> If I'm understanding the message from Tivo that Charles forwarded correctly, and it turns out to be true, then it'll be easier (much easier in one case) to skip adds on a tivo than it is in either of the two streaming services I'm familiar with.
> 
> It would be helpful, at least to me, if when people reference streaming services that they do use instead of tivo, to explicitly state whether they have adds or not. I"m finding it frustrating to look into service x that someone says they use instead of tivo only to find out that service x includes ads, and in some cases, ads that can not be skipped over, or the skipping feature is inferior to that of a tivo. I should probably Google this myself.


There are nightly sales on iTunes for TV shows and movies. I have an Apple TV now and buy everything I want, when it goes on sale. I use cheapcharts (it's free) to create a wishlist, and get emails when something goes on sale and buy it. I get notifications from cheapcharts when iTunes gift cards go on sale and buy them when they're 15% off. I then watch for sales on external hard drives to download and back up by purchases.

This nonsense in the news about Tivo wanting to run ads before recordings makes getting rid of the Tivo experience, and cutting the cord -- a very easy decision to make. Especially since there are zero ads on purchased movies and television. Also, youtube and other streaming services run smoothly on the ATV, unlike the experience on my Tivo.

Lastly, you can set up family sharing on your Apple TV -- making it so you can share your purchases (content) with your family -- something you can't do easily on a Tivo (if at all -- last I checked, you couldn't).

I've bought Tivos for my family since series 2, and upgraded them, paying lifetime subscriptions multiple times. If these pre-rolled ads are enabled on anyone in my family's account, the decision will be made for me. I'll never buy another Tivo device, and never another lifetime membership.


----------



## jwagner010

Like most, unless they remove the monthly subscription fee entirely, pre roll ads are a non starter for me. Not paying a monthly subscription to then have to also watch ads. Shame on you TIVO that's it for me after 10 years of TIVO. Your greed will be your downfall.


----------



## nrc

I'm glad I didn't switch our Bolt to TE4 (I won't call it an upgrade). My only TE4 machine is a Bolt OTA that I use to record OTA sports. Most of the time I stream those through our Bolt so it sounds like that wouldn't be impacted.

If this were completely seamless it probably wouldn't bother me that much. I'm usually skipping stuff at the beginning of the show so it's just one more thing to skip. But as we know, nothing TiVo does with streaming is seamless.

The good news is that this may be exactly the thing to convince my wife to let me cut the cord.


----------



## tenthplanet

Before everybody goes off the deep end. Believe what you see, not what you hear. And then your call. Now when OTA dies down the line and everyone is streaming...Going into the bunker now...


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Charles R said:


> I do wish someone with ads would see what servers TiVo is hitting. .... Hopefully the ad server isn't one of the above.


While during early phases things may be different, I would be surprised if the TiVo engineers are so stupid as to make it easy to use dnsbl or firewall blocks (or something equivalent) to block the ads if the intent is to deliver them.


----------



## dadrepus

I get it, Tivo has created a new revenue stream because they have not been doing well suing everybody and their brother.
But just because I understand it, doesn't mean I like it or will tolerate it on my machines. Had 1 Bolt on TE3 and 1 on TE4. Now, both on TE3. I may loose auto skip but the skip button works "good enough" for me.


----------



## MScottC

For the record, I don't like the idea of "pre-roll" ads. They go against all that TiVo has meant for me over the 20 years (yes, I bought in 1999) that I've owned TiVos. But I'm not about to blow up my TV eco-system or my mind if they become reality.



mntvjunkie said:


> Here's the thing. Tivo doesn't pay for the production, and nowhere does it say that Tivo will send this money to the networks, who DO pay for the production.
> 
> We have been told that our $15 per month or $600 for lifetime fee is what pays for the Tivo "service". Bandwidth costs to deliver the data have gone down (substantially) and they now own the company providing the guide data, so they should be getting a good "deal" on that now too. As for the cost of software, they haven't updated it THAT much in a year-over-year basis, but I agree, that costs money. Again, that's what I am paying for.
> 
> If my cable company can cover the cost of the hardware AND software for $10 a month, why can't Tivo at least cover the cost of software for $15?


I know full well that TiVO doesn't pay for production. I've been in the TV production in one form or another for well over 40 years. But in the scheme of large corporations, TiVo is a small struggling business, and if this is what they feel they have to do (or at least try) in order to keep delivering a product, then let them have a go at it.

I do agree, This scheme is probably a grand mistake. But again, I'm not going to be a an infant kicking and screaming because someone else is making a mistake. What are you really losing, a few seconds of time each time a show starts. Now if they were to start inserting commercials within shows, that's a serious time for me to start considering some action.

For the sake of honesty, I paid $200 for lifetime once 20 years ago, and have not paid since for my primary box (yes a few years of monthly on my first Series 3 HD) and once more for lifetime for my Mini when it first came out, but I've saved a fortune on cable bills due to TiVo. So maybe I don't have as much financially invested as you more recent ToVo customers do.


----------



## djones18

I am now getting pre-roll advertisements every time I start a DVR recorded show on my lifetime Bolt+. This caught me by surprise. Initially I thought this was part of the DVR recorded show. I tried fast forwarding and the screen went black for about a second then the DVR recording started. After I saw the same advertisement twice for a second recorded show I broke the code and came to this thread to find out what's happening. 

I wonder how many thousands of TiVo owners who don't regularly monitor this forum wondered what the heck is going on. I wonder how many don't understand they can fast forward out of the commercial. Not a word from TiVo to me that they'd be changing the functionality of their Bolt. My family finds this irritating and it adds additional steps to get to every recording. I want to opt out of this ill conceived and executed change. I won't buy a TV which makes me watch an advertisement every time it starts and I don't want my DVR forcing this on me.

Calling TiVo customer support when they open today to complain and try to opt out as others suggest.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

gary.buhrmaster said:


> While during early phases things may be different, I would be surprised if the TiVo engineers are so stupid as to make it easy to use dnsbl or firewall blocks (or something equivalent) to block the ads if the intent is to deliver them.


...although the vast majority of TiVo users wouldn't even know it was possible to do this, much less how to accomplish it...


----------



## dadrepus

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...although the vast majority of TiVBo users wouldn't even know it was possible to do this, muc less how to acomplish it...


I thought about this but my new router is Google garbage and doesn't allow getting into the minutia of the router's admin to set something like that up, at least afaik. I could be wrong. If the ads are coming from AKAMI, it is possible but I bet the seconds would still click away. But what else would you block if you do that?


----------



## arglebargle2

TonyD79 said:


> You named one. Such a minor one for a box that otherwise is horrible. I got a TiVo because the fios interface is among the worst in the land. Horrible controls on setting up recordings. Unpopulated guide past a couple of days. Slow and clunky. Extremely inconsistent. Horrible closed captioning. But, yes, it may handle slivers of time better. Woo hoo!
> 
> Wait. It didn't do it for me. It picked the Schitts creek that is over two minutes ago. Oops.


Oh I only gave one? Hold on, how many did you ask me to give?

Oh right...



TonyD79 said:


> Name one.


----------



## zubinh

I’ll be relieved when I see a post from someone who saw the ads, called TiVo and now they’re gone.

I was just about to upgrade to TE4 simply for the Alexa integration. Glad I waited.


----------



## Mikeguy

djones18 said:


> I am now getting pre-roll advertisements every time I start a DVR recorded show on my lifetime Bolt+. This caught me by surprise. Initially I thought this was part of the DVR recorded show. I tried fast forwarding and the screen went black for about a second then the DVR recording started. After I saw the same advertisement twice for a second recorded show I broke the code and came to this thread to find out what's happening.
> 
> I wonder how many thousands of TiVo owners who don't regularly monitor this forum wondered what the heck is going on. I wonder how many don't understand they can fast forward out of the commercial. Not a word from TiVo to me that they'd be changing the functionality of their Bolt. My family finds this irritating and it adds additional steps to get to every recording. I want to opt out of this ill conceived and executed change. I won't buy a TV which makes me watch an advertisement every time it starts and I don't want my DVR forcing this on me.
> 
> Calling TiVo customer support when they open today to complain and try to opt out as others suggest.


If possible, could you let us know TiVo's response and, if the ads get turned off, how long it takes? Thanks--


----------



## HerronScott

zubinh said:


> I was just about to upgrade to TE4 simply for the Alexa integration. Glad I waited


TE3 works with Alexa although to be honest we only played with it a while so haven't done anything with it since it was enabled. Too ingrained to pick up the remote and do what we want. 

Scott


----------



## HerronScott

Charles R said:


> I do wish someone with ads would see what servers TiVo is hitting. I'm not on that release and during the last 24 hours TiVo has hit...
> 
> sls.tivoservice.com
> h1.tivoservice.com
> i.tivo.com
> log.core.cloud.vewd.com
> 
> Hopefully the ad server isn't one of the above.


i.tivo.com is for images and uses Akamai. That would make the most sense but we'll need someone to report back.

Scott


----------



## slowbiscuit

schatham said:


> Tivo provides no content. We pay Tivo for guide and software use. Pre roll ads from a non content provider is an insult. How about Sony adding ads to their TV every time you turn it on. Same thing.


This, 1000%. I don't have an issue with Amazon, Netflix, YouTube doing this. I have a major problem with Tivo doing this, and for them to compare themselves to any content provider/streamer doing pre-rolls is ridiculous.

When the inevitable class-action for lifetime subs is started, I'll be joining. Don't care what the TOS says about them being able to do whatever they want, there will be legal action on this.


----------



## Patrickcg

I would image TiVo has to be more worried about lawsuits from the networks and cable channels. If I owned or managed a network, and saw a service that let people watch my shows, skip my ads, but then made money off selling other adds on my content I smell television and cable lawyers getting excited about their billing hours on that.


----------



## gweempose

Just stumbled upon this very long thread. Can someone please give me the CliffsNotes version. Is this indeed happening, and exactly which boxes will be affected? Thanks!


----------



## cwoody222

Has anyone considered that when the CSR’s have said there’s an opt out that they’re referring to this early access testing period only?


----------



## Charles R

gary.buhrmaster said:


> While during early phases things may be different, I would be surprised if the TiVo engineers are so stupid as to make it easy to use dnsbl or firewall blocks (or something equivalent) to block the ads if the intent is to deliver them.


I guess they are smarter than Google and endless other tech savvy companies.


----------



## dslunceford

gweempose said:


> Just stumbled upon this very long thread. Can someone please give me the CliffsNotes version. Is this indeed happening, and exactly which boxes will be affected? Thanks!


Yes. TE4 and maybe TE3 boxes. No official word from TiVo to customers, just TiVo spokespeople commenting to reporters.


----------



## Darrell Patton

Perhaps someone else already posted this, TiVo tests running pre-roll ads before DVR recordings


----------



## fcfc2

gweempose said:


> Just stumbled upon this very long thread. Can someone please give me the CliffsNotes version. Is this indeed happening, and exactly which boxes will be affected? Thanks!


So far this has only been on some folks with TE4 boxes but according to some folks this "feature" is coming to all TE4 and likely TE3 boxes. The initial retail customer response is outrage especially for folks on lifetime plans. No official word from Tivo to retail folks and some CSR's have allegedly reported these ads can be skipped/bypassed manually at this time.


----------



## WVZR1

What is the 'software version' on those that are receiving the latest TE4 'revenue generating' ad package?

This link should cover the how to if you don't know.

Tivo Customer Support Community

My Bolt is still in the wrapper but the last I've seen mentioned is maybe 9/10 and

21.9.1.V14 for TiVo Experience 4


----------



## Joe3

gary.buhrmaster said:


> While during early phases things may be different, I would be surprised if the TiVo engineers are so stupid as to make it easy to use dnsbl or firewall blocks (or something equivalent) to block the ads if the intent is to deliver them.


I think we can question the assumption that TiVo, since it was bought by Rovi even has software engineers. Rovi descriptions have always been questioned. Guide data was assumed to be their strong point. Nothing of the sort has proven to true. No changes to their databases distribution. Expect that lipstick on a pig called, TE4, and I have said before, competent software engineers don't do computer design graphics, and UI pretty stuff is usually contracted out side a company once every few years. The same has been true with the TiVo itself. No evidence of technology improvements. Therefore, no evidence of software engineers being present who would be making those technical improvements if TiVo ever had made any over the years. There is evidence over the years that ever since Rovi bought TiVo that TiVo/Rovi has no computer engineers or we would have seen it first with databases description distribution and then with the TiVo itself. Real software engineering has never happen with TiVo since it was last bought


----------



## gweempose

dslunceford said:


> Yes. TE4 and maybe TE3 boxes. No official word from TiVo to customers, just TiVo spokespeople commenting to reporters.





fcfc2 said:


> So far this has only been on some folks with TE4 boxes but according to some folks this "feature" is coming to all TE4 and likely TE3 boxes. The initial retail customer response is outrage especially for folks on lifetime plans. No official word from Tivo to retail folks and some CSR's have allegedly reported these ads can be skipped/bypassed manually at this time.


Thanks! All my boxes are on TE3, so fingers crossed that it only affects the TE4 boxes. This really sucks, though. I hope they at least offer people on lifetime the ability to disable the feature.


----------



## schatham

As to TE3 their is no confirmation nor hint from Tivo it will have it. Read the articles, it's the authors opinion only.

I bet it will not. More likely you would get a forced upgrade instead.


----------



## exdishguy

Joe3 said:


> I think we can question the assumption that TiVo, since it was bought my Rovi even has software engineers. Rovi descriptions have always been questioned. Guide data was assumed to be their strong point. Nothing of the sort has proven to true. No changes to their databases distribution. Expect that lipstick on a pig called, TE4, and I have said before, competent computer engineers don't do computer design graphics, and UI pretty stuff is usually contracted out side a company once every few years. The same has been true with the TiVo itself. No evidence of technology improvements. Therefore, no evidence of computer engineers being present who would be making those technical improvements if TiVo ever had made any over the years. There is evidence over the years that ever since Rovi bought TiVo that TiVo/Rovi has no computer engineers or we would have seen it first with databases description distribution and then with the TiVo itself.


Look no further than the new CEO they hired as proof that they are hell bent on making this an advertising and data mining (sell your data) play.


----------



## exdishguy

schatham said:


> As to TE3 their is no confirmation nor hint from Tivo it will have it. Read the articles, it's the authors opinion only.
> 
> I bet it will not. More likely you would get a forced upgrade instead.


Agreed. They will force us to upgrade from TE3 at some point and claim they can no longer maintain that code base, limited resources need to be focused on the future, customers will love the new experience, blah blah blah. All short for - "upgrade to our advertising and data mining platform or enjoy your Tivo-bricks."


----------



## exdishguy

Patrickcg said:


> I would image TiVo has to be more worried about lawsuits from the networks and cable channels. If I owned or managed a network, and saw a service that let people watch my shows, skip my ads, but then made money off selling other adds on my content I smell television and cable lawyers getting excited about their billing hours on that.


Who's to say they won't pacify the cable cos and networks with significantly discounted analytics about Tivo customer viewing habits?


----------



## krkaufman

schatham said:


> As to TE3 their is no confirmation nor hint from Tivo it will have it. Read the articles, it's the authors opinion only.
> 
> I bet it will not. More likely you would get a forced upgrade instead.


There haven't been any reports (at least that I've seen) that the ads are appearing on Roamios running TE4, which, when combined with the CEDIA comment that BOLTs may lose the ability to rollback to TE3, makes me wonder if the ads will be limited to BOLT, EDGE and Mini VOX boxes.


----------



## Paul Reger

TiVo confirms its customers will soon see ads before DVR recordings

I am wondering if this will affect my Roamio OTA?


----------



## KevTech

krkaufman said:


> There haven't been any reports (at least that I've seen) that the ads are appearing on Roamios running TE4, which, when combined with the CEDIA comment that BOLTs may lose the ability to rollback to TE3, makes me wonder if the ads will be limited to BOLT, EDGE and Mini VOX boxes.


Tivo did say it would go to all eligible devices and that eligible devices were those running TE4.


----------



## WVZR1

KevTech said:


> Tivo did say it would go to all eligible devices and that eligible devices were those running TE4.


A 'comment' directly by a TiVo representative or from one of the 'EDITORIALIZED' pushes from the 'usual sources'? I hadn't seen anything that appeared to be a TiVo release. I've had a conversation with TiVo as have others that the 'FEATURE' can be removed/deactivated. I certainly don't know ........

**What might be an interesting argument for Xfinity customers is well TiVo VOD is gone, How about a little consideration and remove the feature or maybe at least make it an opt-in.

If there were reduced prices for monthly subscribers or the Opt-in/out for AISP/PLS users it might be a considered 'feature'. Pay full retail monthly and be able to SKIP, reduced fee 'it stays', AISP/PLS goes away!


----------



## Rkkeller

Let us all be real, no one is going back to their crappy cable DVR's so good to bellyache, but looks like we are going to be stuck with it for now. I know I am not going back to the buggy, limited space, recording problems, season pass problems of my providers DVR.

I guess get used to pressing skip or FF when starting a recording now.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Patrickcg said:


> I would image TiVo has to be more worried about lawsuits from the networks and cable channels. If I owned or managed a network, and saw a service that let people watch my shows, skip my ads, but then made money off selling other adds on my content I smell television and cable lawyers getting excited about their billing hours on that.


As long as they treat all ads equally, I wouldn't think it would be a problem. But if they give their own ads preference by allowing other ads to be autoskipped but their own ads must be skipped manually, that could raise issues.


----------



## dslunceford

I'm just hoping TiVo at some point does communicate to their customers (other than via press comments) as to what is actually happening, to what boxes, etc. If, as existing TE4 user, I can call or otherwise opt-out, I will keep TE4 in place.

If not, and TE3 will be exempt, I will (despite the pain) downconvert my new Bolt and Mini Vox to TE3, especially as when I prepped the wife and family to expect ads they spoke up and told me how much they hate TE4.

I'm personally ambivalent about TE4...the only real "feature" I would miss would be the Vox remote's voice functionality. I'm assuming apps would remain a bit snappier than my Roamio (still on TE3) just by virtue of faster hardware.

Edit to add: I have yet to see the ads in place on my units. I guess I'm saying if they are annoying, and if "downgrading" to TE3 is still an option, this gives me the impetus to downgrade.


----------



## gweempose

dslunceford said:


> I'm just hoping TiVo at some point does communicate to their customers (other than via press comments) as to what is actually happening, to what boxes, etc ...


I don't envy Ted right now. I imagine he's been dreading this day, knowing full well the s*** was about to hit the fan.


----------



## SullyND

Rkkeller said:


> Let us all be real, no one is going back to their crappy cable DVR's


Their DVR's what?

I stick with Comcast because of my TiVo, I stick with my TiVo because of TE3. Push me to Hydra? I'm out. Start inserting Ads? I'm out. If my TIVo dies tomorrow, and cannot easily be fixed, I'm out.

No way I'm investing any more $ in TiVo with the specter of forced TE4 and ads hanging over them.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I think many have wondered for years why they haven't done things like license or create their own premium VOD service, put ads on those VODs, and get more apps to share in the subscription revenue. Not to mention the various product ideas that have come and gone, or take way too long to come out that they're irrelevant before they launch (wireless mini adapter).

In other words, more products and services we might actually want that would make us customers more frequently than only once every couple years when we buy a new box.

They've been so focused on their B2B and analytics that they've been absolute crap at monetizing us correctly. Instead of genuinely innovating their way out of their revenue problem, they've made up new ways to whore out our data and eyeballs and make US the product instead... and we get to pay for that privilege too.

Hydra's only going to get worse from here. Pre-rolls, guide ads, pause ads, home screen ads. You're going to feel like you're visiting a virus-ridden song lyrics website.


----------



## SullyND

Doesn’t TiVo have a patent for replacing ads in recordings? (Sort of a reverse skip mode where it plays TiVo ads instead of those recorded with the program)


----------



## exdishguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Hydra's only going to get worse from here. Pre-rolls, guide ads, pause ads, home screen ads. You're going to feel like you're visiting a virus-ridden song lyrics website.


It's also slow as molasses compared to TE3. Painful. They way over did the whole tile/picture thing so I often sit there waiting for images to load on several menus. The pre-roll ads, guide ads, pause ads, etc. all make the experience slower and slower. Then there are user-clicks - we need more and more of them to do basic stuff like deleting a show. In TE3, if I see a recorded show in My Shows that I want to delete, I hit the Clear button and its gone. TE4 requires another 2 clicks to do the same thing.


----------



## KevTech

I am wondering what these advertisers will think if everyone can either opt out of having these shown or can skip them.
I wonder if Tivo told them to pay us money to show your ads but all of are users may never see them.
Seems to me they may start to think they are wasting their money if users will not be forced to see their ads.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

exdishguy said:


> It's also slow as molasses compared to TE3. Painful. They way over did the whole tile/picture thing so I often sit there waiting for images to load on several menus. The pre-roll ads, guide ads, pause ads, etc. all make the experience slower and slower. Then there are user-clicks - we need more and more of them to do basic stuff like deleting a show. In TE3, if I see a recorded show in My Shows that I want to delete, I hit the Clear button and its gone. TE4 requires another 2 clicks to do the same thing.


That's the upgrade strategy. Buy an Edge to get through our ads and questionable design choices faster than ever before!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

KevTech said:


> I am wondering what these advertisers will think if everyone can either opt out of having these shown or can skip them.
> I wonder if Tivo told them to pay us money to show your ads but all of are users may never see them.
> Seems to me they may start to think they are wasting their money if users will not be forced to see their ads.


There's most likely a guaranteed minimum number of views, with "views" being defined in the contract, and they'll just keep running til it's hit. Usually how something like that works.


----------



## KevTech

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's the upgrade strategy. Buy an Edge to get through our ads and questionable design choices faster than ever before!


I really doubt I will upgrade to edge.

The 4k TV I just purchased has Dolby Vision available on any app that supports it so Tivo adding Dolby Vision is a wash for me.


----------



## Joe3

exdishguy said:


> Look no further than the new CEO they hired as proof that they are hell bent on making this an advertising and data mining (sell your data) play.


CEO position has been a revolving door of incompetence since Rovi bought TiVo. When that kind of constant revolving happens it points directly to the incompetence of TiVo' Board members. Someone needs to investigate TiVo's Board members for conflicts of interest and if found immediately remove them form the Board. Also, look for non quorum voting, absenteeism, proxy voting, remote voting over the phone or internet. Everything now points to the TiVo Board members not their sock puppet CEO hires. The TiVo Board must be personally name in any forthcoming class action suits. Rovi has demonstrated it is practicing predator capitalism from the beginning of their takeover and must be held accountable for corporate raiding and racketeering.


----------



## NashGuy

tarheelblue32 said:


> As long as they treat all ads equally, I wouldn't think it would be a problem. But if they give their own ads preference by allowing other ads to be autoskipped but their own ads must be skipped manually, that could raise issues.


Hmm. I'm not a lawyer but I really do wonder, under the current fair use law that allows consumers to record broadcast TV, what would preclude TiVo or any other company -- that operates independently of the broadcasters and cable TV operator -- from completely cutting out the original broadcast ads and replacing them with TiVo's own unskippable ads. (I'm not saying that this is what TiVo is doing or will do, I'm just wondering what aspect of current law might preclude such behavior.) Seems to me that if the consumer didn't like that aspect of TiVo's DVR service, it would be up to him to switch to a different DVR service. And I can't see how the broadcasters or cable companies involved would have any legal leg to stand on. But then, as I say, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know all the ins and outs of the applicable law.


----------



## chrishicks

I have and will stay on TE3 until Tivo forces it off of my Roamio box so if these ads never hit my box you won't hear me complaining that I'm missing out on this new "feature". I do find it a bit off that one of their biggest selling points is ad skipping and yet here we are with them placing ads into an ad skipping box. I know everyone has been saying the ads are skippable but I'll guess that they won't stay that way and will eventually be forced just like those on Youtube(on a Roku for example). This is the kind of nonsense I would expect from Comcast but not Tivo but here we are.

I just wonder, as others have mentioned, how long before ads turn up elsewhere because if they can make money forcing an ad in one spot they'll see the $$$ and try for even more. Everyone should know that if they can get away with one they'll go for two, etc. I can't imagine them thinking "well, we're making a bit more now with the one and only ad, let's call it a day". Soon enough we'll be watching ads before we can set One Passes or even visiting the Now Playing list if they see a profit can be made and people accept it because it helps Tivo. How much will those who support this new ad format because it helps tolerate before it's too much?

As far as pi-hole I have mine running through it now so for a TE3 box here are my recorded hits over the last 24hrs:

h1.tivoservice.com
i.tivo.com
mm1.tivoservice.com
mm1.tivoservice.com.localdomain
tivo-0.vo.llnwd.net
www.tivo.com

Tivo. TV yOUR way.


----------



## NashGuy

chrishicks said:


> I just wonder, as others have mentioned, how long before ads turn up elsewhere because if they can make money forcing an ad in one spot they'll see the $$$ and try for even more. Everyone should know that if they can get away with one they'll go for two, etc. I can't imagine them thinking "well, we're making a bit more now with the one and only ad, let's call it a day". Soon enough we'll be watching ads before we can set One Passes or even visiting the Now Playing list if they see a profit can be made and people accept it because it helps Tivo. How much will those who support this new ad format because it helps tolerate before it's too much?


Well, FWIW, a current TiVo beta tester this week told me that he/she is now seeing ads placed in the program guide grid.

As far as the inserted video ads, my guess is that TiVo developed that platform mainly for larger purposes than what we're currently seeing, with just one pre-recording ad being streamed. I'd say it's mainly for inserting (unskippable) ads into their free video content in the forthcoming TiVo+ app.

Beyond that, maybe TiVo will deploy multiple ads before or during DVR recordings as part of a cheaper (or even free) tier of DVR service.

I definitely think -- based on the feedback in this thread so far -- that TiVo will realize that they're going to have to be careful about the degree to which they deploy ads on their current full-price DVR service because folks will cancel. (Although who knows what percentage of their current retail user base is on lifetime service, in which case TiVo already has their money and there's really nothing they can do.)


----------



## Amnesia

NashGuy said:


> (Although who knows what percentage of their current retail user base is on lifetime service, in which case TiVo already has their money and there's really nothing they can do.)


Well, we could simply not buy new hardware and not pay to transfer lifetime to a new box.


----------



## pdicamillo

NashGuy said:


> (Although who knows what percentage of their current retail user base is on lifetime service, in which case TiVo already has their money and there's really nothing they can do.)


Tivo may be underestimating the power of word-of-mouth. Many people are not technically-oriented but know others who are. They turn to those people for help with their equipment and for buying recommendations. I've highly-recommended Tivo in the past, but with the introduction of these ads I'd now recommend people avoid Tivo. That's due to both the ads themselves and the attitude Tivo is showing by adding them. The thread on alternatives makes it clear there are many alternatives now.


----------



## NorthAlabama

gweempose said:


> I don't envy Ted right now. I imagine he's been dreading this day, knowing full well the s*** was about to hit the fan.


the cynic in me is now wondering if the only reason skip mode was added to premiers was so tivo could eventually enable skipping of pre-roll ads...


----------



## exdishguy

Amnesia said:


> Well, we could simply not buy new hardware and not pay to transfer lifetime to a new box.


They've already done the math. Clearly, they've calculated that the potential loss of long-time Tivo-customers via attrition vs. the (perceived) upside of creating an ad-based/data mining business model is well worth that risk.


----------



## egeek84

If anyone called in and got the ads disabled from their account, please report back if its been 72 hours and you NO LONGER see them. Thanks!


----------



## Mikeguy

exdishguy said:


> They've already done the math. Clearly, they've calculated that the potential loss of long-time Tivo-customers via attrition vs. the (perceived) upside of creating an ad-based/data mining business model is well worth that risk.


And we all know how well TiVo has done in its past calculations. 

edit: I should add (and so not to be seen as too snarky), I'm not opposed to TiVo experimenting with revenue-generation methods, even something like here--it's just, to do so smartly and to not alienate the customer base as to why we use a TiVo box.


----------



## Rob75

chrishicks said:


> I have and will stay on TE3 until Tivo forces it off of my Roamio box so if these ads never hit my box you won't hear me complaining that I'm missing out on this new "feature". I do find it a bit off that one of their biggest selling points is ad skipping and yet here we are with them placing ads into an ad skipping box. I know everyone has been saying the ads are skippable but I'll guess that they won't stay that way and will eventually be forced just like those on Youtube(on a Roku for example). This is the kind of nonsense I would expect from Comcast but not Tivo but here we are.
> 
> I just wonder, as others have mentioned, how long before ads turn up elsewhere because if they can make money forcing an ad in one spot they'll see the $$$ and try for even more. Everyone should know that if they can get away with one they'll go for two, etc. I can't imagine them thinking "well, we're making a bit more now with the one and only ad, let's call it a day". Soon enough we'll be watching ads before we can set One Passes or even visiting the Now Playing list if they see a profit can be made and people accept it because it helps Tivo. How much will those who support this new ad format because it helps tolerate before it's too much?
> 
> As far as pi-hole I have mine running through it now so for a TE3 box here are my recorded hits over the last 24hrs:
> 
> h1.tivoservice.com
> i.tivo.com
> mm1.tivoservice.com
> mm1.tivoservice.com.localdomain
> tivo-0.vo.llnwd.net
> www.tivo.com
> 
> Tivo. TV yOUR way.


Just curious. Do we know yet which domains are ads and which ones are for updates and guide data?


----------



## NorthAlabama

exdishguy said:


> They've already done the math. Clearly, they've calculated that the potential loss of long-time Tivo-customers via attrition vs. the (perceived) upside of creating an ad-based/data mining business model is well worth that risk.




Mikeguy said:


> And we all know how well TiVo has done in its past calculations.


well, they _think _they've done the math, but it's difficult to accurately calculate the long-term damage to the brand, not to mention the short-term hit.

tivo claims to be working to double it's subscriber base with their new product offerings in just a few months, so i imagine they're getting this out of the way before new products launch, but i don't think the final tally of their new math will add up the way they've calculated.


----------



## djones18

I'm getting these pre-roll adverts and don't want them. I just got off the phone with TiVo Technical Support via their customer support line: 877-367-8486. I was nice and simply explained I wanted the advertisements removed each time I played a DVR recorded program. The representative was sympathetic and went off the line for a few minutes to see if this can be done. When she came back I was told this function would be removed from my TiVo Bolt +. She indicated it would take up to 3 business days. These obnoxious adverts should go away NLT Wednesday or Thursday. I was given a Case Number and told I'd receive email confirmation. I will report back success or not.

I suggest anyone with a Bolt who is getting these adverts and doesn't want them to call TiVo and get them stopped. TiVo needs to know if the owner community is for, against, or ambivalent.


----------



## Mikeguy

NorthAlabama said:


> well, they think they've done the math, but it's difficult to accurately calculate the long-term damage to the brand, not to mention the short-term hit.
> 
> tivo claims to be working to double it's subscriber base with their new product offerings in just a few months, so i imagine they're getting this out of the way before new products launch, but i don't think the final tally of their new math will add up the way they've calculated.


I keep on wondering, ok, TiVo, you want to increase revenue, that's understandable and commendable--then do something _positive_. I don't see pre-roll ads as a real "positive" (although I'm willing to accept them--but then they should be turn-off-able in the box settings).

On the other hand, improved and more meaningful apps and streaming device/technology/content access (as someone else said here, if Roku won't do it for a TiVo box, why doesn't TiVo do it for Roku?), a Mini Wireless Adapter, TiVo apps for streaming devices, a TiVo streaming device, enhanced TiVo remotes (what happened to the Slide Pro remote entirely at this point?), even a TiVo marketplace accessed through TiVo Central (there used to be one, the Showcases), yes, that's positive.


----------



## foghorn2

I use Lifetime 4 tuner Roamios exclusively with 4 minis, waiting for TiVo to offer free dvr service with Ads on my 2 Bolts sitting in the closet and better not see the ads on my lifetimes.


----------



## exdishguy

Mikeguy said:


> And we all know how well TiVo has done in its past calculations.


Exactly.


----------



## mntvjunkie

Mikeguy said:


> And we all know how well TiVo has done in its past calculations.
> 
> edit: I should add (and so not to be seen as too snarky), I'm not opposed to TiVo experimenting with revenue-generation methods, even something like here--it's just, to do so smartly and to not alienate the customer base as to why we use a TiVo box.


Exactly. Ads will generate some money for Tivo, but Tivo was already a tough sell as they haven't really added that much over the past few years. (I'm not saying I expect them to, but it has given other DVR options a chance to surpass the options available to Tivo, eg the Channels app).

How many ads will Tivo have to sell to make up for the $1200 in lost revenue from me (was planning on an Edge and new Mini later this year when they come out, and will no longer do that). How many ads will Tivo need to sell to make up for the millions of people who have read the negative press already and will no longer consider a Tivo? How many ads will Tivo need to sell to make up for the fact that hundreds of thousands of Tivo customers will no longer recommend Tivo as an option, or rave about how awesome it is?

Furthermore, looking at what they have announced so far (Tivo Streaming Stick) they appear to be AT LEAST 10 years behind in technology (that thing looks like a generation 1 Roku Stick at best). As a Tivo fan, all of that combined with the ads is heartbreaking (and probably one reason why a few high profile Tivo executives have stepped down like TivoMargret). Tivo used to be THE leader in DVR technology, which made the fact that they were an awful patent troll easy to overlook, but in the past few years they haven't really advanced the industry, and like I said others have caught up. Combined with learning recently that Xfinity had to remove features because Tivo sued them (and Tivo seeing this as a valid strategy going forward) and it just makes it really hard to want to continue to support them, let alone recommend them to my friends and family.

I'll probably keep my lifetime Roamio, for now. It's paid for. I'll give it time to iron itself out, but I am also definitely looking at my alternatives. If the box dies, I'm out. If I get annoyed with the ads, I'm out. If the HD Home Run 6 tuner gets good reviews, I am out. For the first time in 20 years, there is no scenario where I will be upgrading my Tivo. Depending on what I decide to do, Tivo may get a few more pennies from me in ad revenue, but they have lost my trust, and my future hardware/service revenue.

And for those who say I should cut them some slack, I don't think you really understand what this means. Tivo already has less than 1 million retail subs, and this will speed up that exit. Once it is no longer profitable to operate, the platform will die. So, defend them if you want, go down with the ship if you want, but just be aware that the loss of customers will likely be the downfall of Retail Tivo, and perhaps ALL of Tivo as a whole. I know people have said this for 20 years, I have been a customer for 20 years. But I truly feel that we are closer to that day than ever before, especially since Tivo can no longer live on "patent settlement" money (since they don't own that business anymore).


----------



## mntvjunkie

foghorn2 said:


> I use Lifetime 4 tuner Roamios exclusively with 4 minis, waiting for TiVo to offer free dvr service with Ads on my 2 Bolts sitting in the closet and better not see the ads on my lifetimes.


This would be the smart play, so Tivo won't do it.

Tivo lacks customers. If you discount or remove the service fee, or give the hardware away for free, it removes a barrier of entry for people. If Tivo were going to offer two tiers of service ($5 per month with ads, $15 per month without) then this wouldn't be a problem. Not only is this not their plan, they also plan to look at other places to insert ads (including ad replacement during the show).


----------



## humbb

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. I'm not a lawyer but I really do wonder, under the current fair use law that allows consumers to record broadcast TV, what would preclude TiVo or any other company -- that operates independently of the broadcasters and cable TV operator -- from completely cutting out the original broadcast ads and replacing them with TiVo's own unskippable ads. (I'm not saying that this is what TiVo is doing or will do, I'm just wondering what aspect of current law might preclude such behavior.) Seems to me that if the consumer didn't like that aspect of TiVo's DVR service, it would be up to him to switch to a different DVR service. And I can't see how the broadcasters or cable companies involved would have any legal leg to stand on. But then, as I say, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know all the ins and outs of the applicable law.


I'm not a lawyer either, but you bring up some interesting points. I don't believe that replacing ads with Tivo's own ads would constitute fair use because Tivo would be receiving income without compensation to the Intellectual Property owner. But getting to the issue of pre-roll ads, your discussion reminded me of the earworm MLB disclaimer that ran before every baseball game I would listen to or watch while growing up:

"This game is authorized under television rights granted by Major League Baseball solely for the entertainment of our audience and any publication reproduction retransmission or other use of the pictures descriptions and accounts of this game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is prohibited *Any commercial or other use of the program such as by charging admission for its showing is similarly prohibited unless authorized in writing by Major League Baseball*."

It strikes me that what Tivo is doing here with its pre-roll is basically charging admission to view IP that it hasn't paid for and has no agreement with the IP owner to retransmit. This could be why Tivo allows skipping of the pre-roll: "We're not charging admission, we're just asking for a donation!" The opt-out (by skipping) nature of the ad could be problematic if Tivo were taken to court on this issue which might require changing to a more opt-in type selection. And Tivo agreeing to a global opt-out (via telephone call that others are reporting) should do the trick.

But then how would Tivo make money on this?

Pure fun speculation on my part since I have no IP experience at all.


----------



## foghorn2

"*Enable Video Downloads*

Use this setting to enable a box to download TV shows, movies, and other video content from the TiVo service over your broadband Internet connection. Specific program offerings will vary from time to time and may not be available to all subscribers. You can turn this setting on or off at any time without charge. Changes to this setting take up to 24 hours to take effect. Your TiVo box must be connected to the Internet via broadband in order to download video."

I wonder if disabling that will prevent those commercials to be on your harddrive, I doubt it will be live streaming the ads as not all have true broadband speeds.


----------



## ManeJon

I hate the idea - didn't by TIVO for ads but to avoid ads.
One of my biggest concern is how does this effect tuner usage? Will ads be included at playback time? If they are during recording time then what - how much space will they occupy and for people who have space issues that could cause real problems.
Suing only make lawyers rich.


----------



## igirl

I bought a lifetime DVR that records and plays back TV signal - not an advertising box. They are altering the nature of the purchase, after the fact. IMO they should offer to buy the box back if I do not agree to it becoming an ad player. If they don't end this now, or offer opt-out, there should be a class action filed.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

exdishguy said:


> Look no further than the new CEO they hired


The CEO was hired to prepare the company for restructuring and to be parted out (currently targeted to be two different entities as I recall). Part of that responsibility is to show potential revenue to make the potential buyers think that buying the company will be a good thing. Ad revenue might qualify as a potential revenue stream.


----------



## djones18

foghorn2 said:


> "*Enable Video Downloads*
> 
> Use this setting to enable a box to download TV shows, movies, and other video content from the TiVo service over your broadband Internet connection. Specific program offerings will vary from time to time and may not be available to all subscribers. You can turn this setting on or off at any time without charge. Changes to this setting take up to 24 hours to take effect. Your TiVo box must be connected to the Internet via broadband in order to download video."
> 
> I wonder if disabling that will prevent those commercials to be on your harddrive, I doubt it will be live streaming the ads as not all have true broadband speeds.


I'm getting the pre-roll ads. It does have the appearance of live streaming these ads but it may be going to the HD and taking its time to load. I'm getting the same "blue swirl" connecting to server indication before the advert starts as I get when using any live stream app on my TiVo, i.e., Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.. Your suggestion may work. I prefer to contact TiVo and get it turned off as I've done today and obtained a case number. We'll see what happens.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

foghorn2 said:


> I doubt it will be live streaming the ads as not all have true broadband speeds.


That (not live-streaming, but downloading ads as part of guide data) would be my guess too (but it is only a guess). And then potentially adding/updating the ad snippets at the next guide update interval to have a small set of ads to show. What ad plays would be randomized, and reported back at the next update cycle. One report was the ad quality was poor, so my guess is that the disk space requirement is very limited (but, again, that is a guess).


----------



## slice1900

NashGuy said:


> Hmm. I'm not a lawyer but I really do wonder, under the current fair use law that allows consumers to record broadcast TV, what would preclude TiVo or any other company -- that operates independently of the broadcasters and cable TV operator -- from completely cutting out the original broadcast ads and replacing them with TiVo's own unskippable ads. (I'm not saying that this is what TiVo is doing or will do, I'm just wondering what aspect of current law might preclude such behavior.)


There is no "fair use law". Fair use is a particular type of exception to copyright law for specific limited circumstances, and home recording for personal use has been deemed one such exception.

A business removing ads and replacing them with its own for profit seems very unlikely to be considered a fair use exception to copyright law. I hope Tivo gets crucified by the lawyers if they pursue this braindead strategy.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

exdishguy said:


> They've already done the math. Clearly, they've calculated that the potential loss of long-time Tivo-customers via attrition vs. the (perceived) upside of creating an ad-based/data mining business model is well worth that risk.


I wonder why they secretly rolled this out instead of sending out an email to subscribers letting them know this is coming?


----------



## wdwms

I just called to voice my displeasure, the agent at first try to explain its a new feature. I told him I didn't agree to anything to have these ads, please remove them. He immediately opened a ticket, gave me the number.

Which got me thinking.. old ToS may not have a provision in there for them to roll ads on you.. but I'm going to guess any new ToS would... So if you're under the old ToS possibly they have to remove it if you request it. Purely hypothetical.. I'm not about to sit and compare pages of legal ToS; but if anyone activates a new box and gets denied removing ads, well that could be a tell tale sign..


----------



## exdishguy

spiderpumpkin said:


> I wonder why they secretly rolled this out instead of sending out an email to subscribers letting them know this is coming?


Because they knew damn well it would dis-intermediate many of the loyal Tivo customer base. There are rumors from some of the beta testers that nobody liked it in beta either. Yet, they did it anyway. Which is why I think they've done the calculations and decided they'll take the risk. I see it as a Hail Mary to drive the valuation up and finally sell off the product business.

In my opinion, the very best outcome we can all expect here is that TE3 will continue to run well enough that we get a couple of more years out of our boxes. Tivo is going to live to sell or die in hell. And whoever they sell to is more likely to be someone that likes the advert platform and customer data mining platform they've built so I don't see that buyer being our Messiah some day.


----------



## Charles R

A TiVo follow-up to the case I opened... Will there be any way to disable the pre-roll ads once I receive the software upgrade?

_Dear Charles,

Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support.

We can request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. You can reach us back when that happens on your TiVo DVR._


----------



## Bigg

foghorn2 said:


> I wonder if disabling that will prevent those commercials to be on your harddrive, I doubt it will be live streaming the ads as not all have true broadband speeds.


Entirely possible, depending on how they implemented it, but it's not crazy to think that it might stream and ads and just skip the ad for the few people who don't have decent broadband speeds. It could also revert to streaming if you turn that off, although that sounds too sophisticated for TiVo's M.O.


----------



## moyekj

spiderpumpkin said:


> I wonder why they secretly rolled this out instead of sending out an email to subscribers letting them know this is coming?


Quite frankly given the level of incompetence in recent years I wouldn't be surprised if this was unintentionally released before they were ready.


----------



## atscntsc

Sherman, set the wayback machine to 2015.

Slingbox, Now Covered In Ads
Slingbox, Now Covered In Ads

The irony here is this comment from Dave Zatz at the conclusion of the article:

"All I can say is, good thing I bought a TiVo Roamio just yesterday, with integrated streaming, as Slingbox is significantly less compelling this week."


----------



## Joe3

ManeJon said:


> Suing only make lawyers rich.


Exactly, that's how class action suits work. They get richer only if they win it for those in the class action suit. There is a patern of behavior over the years by Rovi that can reveal Rovi is a corporate predator and raided TiVo to bleed it dead.


----------



## NashGuy

slice1900 said:


> There is no "fair use law". Fair use is a particular type of exception to copyright law for specific limited circumstances, and home recording for personal use has been deemed one such exception.
> 
> A business removing ads and replacing them with its own for profit seems very unlikely to be considered a fair use exception to copyright law. I hope Tivo gets crucified by the lawyers if they pursue this braindead strategy.


OK, fine, you've made a semantic correction. But what aspects of the existing law -- which allows home recording for personal use -- would auto-excision of broadcast ads violate? This feature already exists among various for-profit DVR services -- Plex, Channels Plus, etc.

And then, next step: what provisions within existing law would prevent a for-profit DVR service, which relies upon the fair-use exception to copyright law for the personal in-home recording of broadcast TV, from inserting their own unskippable ads as a condition of using their DVR service?


----------



## Mikeguy

moyekj said:


> Quite frankly given the level of incompetence in recent years I wouldn't be surprised if this was unintentionally released before they were ready.


Except that, TiVo customer service seems to have known all about it the day things occurred, and even had a remedy (we'll see if it pans out). That rarely seems to be the case--this seems to have been scripted and timed.


----------



## NashGuy

humbb said:


> I'm not a lawyer either, but you bring up some interesting points. I don't believe that replacing ads with Tivo's own ads would constitute fair use because Tivo would be receiving income without compensation to the Intellectual Property owner.


Hmm. OK, but hasn't TiVo *always* received income for their DVR service (i.e. the monthly, annual or lifetime fees that customers pay) without providing any compensation to the intellectual property owner (either the broadcast channel or the cable system operator)?



humbb said:


> But getting to the issue of pre-roll ads, your discussion reminded me of the earworm MLB disclaimer that ran before every baseball game I would listen to or watch while growing up:
> 
> "This game is authorized under television rights granted by Major League Baseball solely for the entertainment of our audience and any publication reproduction retransmission or other use of the pictures descriptions and accounts of this game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball is prohibited *Any commercial or other use of the program such as by charging admission for its showing is similarly prohibited unless authorized in writing by Major League Baseball*."


Right. The fair-use exception to copyright law covers personal, non-commercial use only. So you can't sell tickets to your neighbors to come in and watch the game on your TV. That's non-authorized redistribution of their content.



humbb said:


> It strikes me that what Tivo is doing here with its pre-roll is basically charging admission to view IP that it hasn't paid for and has no agreement with the IP owner to retransmit. This could be why Tivo allows skipping of the pre-roll: "We're not charging admission, we're just asking for a donation!"


Yeah, m-a-y-b-e. But this seems like you're torturing the intent of existing case law, which precludes anyone from essentially redistributing the content to others to make a buck on it. Given that it's the individual consumer who is choosing to pay for and use the TiVo service, and choosing to record the broadcast, and then play it back in his/her own home for non-commercial use (i.e. not selling tickets to the neighbors to watch), I'm not sure I see why it's any more problematic for TiVo to "charge" their customers for their DVR service in the form of required ad-viewing (i.e. consumers' time) than to charge them in the form of actual money. (Or some combination of the two.)

I'll end by saying this: where other DVR service providers, such as DISH with their Hopper, have gotten into trouble with auto-skipping of ads in DVR recordings wasn't from a legal/copyright perspective. It was simply because they had business relationships in place with the IP owners (the cable networks) to distribute their product. And NBC, CBS, Fox, etc. did NOT like it when their business partner DISH was making it so simple for their viewers to avoid their ads through the Auto-Hop feature on the Hopper.

I think the only reason that TiVo requires their customers to press a button to skip over ads in SkipMode, rather than have the DVR automatically do it, is to avoid making their business relationships with their pay TV partners more difficult than necessary. Remember, the bulk of TiVo's business these days is licensing the TiVo system for use on pay TV set-top boxes/back-end servers.


----------



## KevTech

NashGuy said:


> I think the only reason that TiVo requires their customers to press a button to skip over ads in SkipMode, rather than have the DVR automatically do it, is to avoid making their business relationships with their pay TV partners more difficult than necessary.


Are you talking about the pre roll or regular ads presented during a recording?

Pre roll you have to push a button to skip the ads.

If you set skipmode to automatic you just start the recording and all ads during the recording are automatically skipped.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Entirely possible, depending on how they implemented it, but it's not crazy to think that it might stream and ads and just skip the ad for the few people who don't have decent broadband speeds. It could also revert to streaming if you turn that off, although that sounds too sophisticated for TiVo's M.O.


The ads should have been downloaded ahead of time. I certainly hope they arent doing it in realtime.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

NashGuy said:


> Well, FWIW, a current TiVo beta tester this week told me that he/she is now seeing ads placed in the program guide grid.
> 
> As far as the inserted video ads, my guess is that TiVo developed that platform mainly for larger purposes than what we're currently seeing, with just one pre-recording ad being streamed. I'd say it's mainly for inserting (unskippable) ads into their free video content in the forthcoming TiVo+ app.
> 
> Beyond that, maybe TiVo will deploy multiple ads before or during DVR recordings as part of a cheaper (or even free) tier of DVR service.
> 
> I definitely think -- based on the feedback in this thread so far -- that TiVo will realize that they're going to have to be careful about the degree to which they deploy ads on their current full-price DVR service because folks will cancel. (Although who knows what percentage of their current retail user base is on lifetime service, in which case TiVo already has their money and there's really nothing they can do.)


Ugh ads in the guide? That was like my first Comcast DVR ten years ago. No wonder Live Guide is dead, prolly not enough real estate on screen for ads.


----------



## Joe3

They are two legal avenues to go against TiVo, but the argument about ads is the path for a corporation like ad sponsors.

But the easiest one is for the long term/short term TiVo customers in a class action suit to prove Rovi did not act in good faith, misrepresented themselves to the customer and is fact a corporate predator and not a tech company. Rovi couldn't graduate form a 6 grade computer class. This is why they go where real tech companies do not go because they can't go to real tech solutions because they are in reality a corporate predator. Rovi's behavior over the years has not produce any tech solutions to their problems. Why, because they don't know how, being a corporate predator. It is the only explanation that answers all the puzzling questions, the puzzling behavior about them over the years. Class action cases are the most successful when they are clear patterns of contradiction behavior. The bases for class action suits against Rovi going before a judge is not complicated given Rovi's patterns of behavior.


----------



## Davelnlr_

Thunderclap said:


> I'll reserve judgement until I see how it works on my system. If it ends up being intrusive and not easy to skip, I can always move over to my HDHomeRun + Plex backup. It works really well and can remove the commercials completely after the recording is finished.


I have Plex Pass lifetime myself. Old HDHomerun for backup OTA. Ive been waiting for them to release a 6 tuner cablecard unit before upgrading. Also have a 4 tuner Premier to fall back on, hoping it wont support the ads. I really miss SageTV to be honest. That was the best DVR/Server I have ever owned, but both SageTV boxes have stopped working, so I shut the server down.


----------



## exdishguy

Joe3 said:


> They are two legal avenues to go against TiVo, but the argument about ads is the path for a corporation like ad sponsors.
> 
> But the easiest one is for the long term/short term TiVo customers in a class action suit to prove Rovi did not act in good faith, misrepresented themselves to the customer and is fact a corporate predator and not a tech company. Rovi couldn't graduate form a 6 grade computer class. This is why they go where real tech companies do not go because they can't go to real tech solutions because they are in reality a corporate predator. Rovi's behavior over the years has not produce any tech solutions to their problems. Why, because they don't know how, being a corporate predator. It is the only explanation that answers all the puzzling questions, the puzzling behavior about them over the years. Class action cases are the most successful when they are clear patterns of contradiction behavior. The bases for class action suits against Rovi going before a judge is not complicated given Rovi's patterns of behavior.


I'm no lawyer but in reviewing the EULA posted here http://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement there are two paragraphs that indicate we'll have little chance at a class action lawsuit. The first is:

_"TiVo reserves the right to discontinue previously offered features or functionality at its sole discretion and without prior notice. TiVo is not liable to you or to any third party for any modification, suspension, or discontinuance of any feature or component of any TiVo product or service. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."_

I read this and think it is pretty clear that they can do whatever the hell they want with the software. So those of us that love Live Guide - tough titty. Don't like spinning blue circles? You've got a better chance at suing them for causing dizziness looking at them vs. the fact that they added a feature that causes you to look at spinning blue circles.

Next up:

_"With an All-In Plan, you receive those TiVo service features that we make generally available to all customers who have activated a TiVo service subscription for that same TiVo product, except as otherwise noted by TiVo. You may incur separate charges for certain third-party content, services or applications; these items are not considered part of the TiVo service. In addition, TiVo reserves the right to subsequently release, and to charge separate amounts for, new features or functionality which are not made generally available to all customers who have activated TiVo service on a particular TiVo product."_

It's not difficult to imagine that Tivo could just easily argue that instead of charging us for "new features and functionality" they reverted to ads so that they didn't have to ask us for more money. What are new features and functionality? Dunno but I suppose Hydra, Auto-skip may be examples.

I could not find the old Lifetime EULA or any earlier EULAs. This one is from last year. It might be interesting to review them.


----------



## slice1900

NashGuy said:


> OK, fine, you've made a semantic correction. But what aspects of the existing law -- which allows home recording for personal use -- would auto-excision of broadcast ads violate? This feature already exists among various for-profit DVR services -- Plex, Channels Plus, etc.


The point is that there is no "existing law" to allow DVRs. Copyright law expressly bans all "retransmission" of cable/satellite/OTA broadcasts, and DVR playback is indisputably such a retransmission under copyright law. Fair use carves out a narrow window which allows such playback for personal use only. So you can do it at home, but a bar can't record a game and play it back later - that's why Directv/etc. won't allow bars/restaurants to have DVRs. They would be seen as accessories to any copyright violations that occurred if they if they did. As far as copyright is concerned, there's no difference between fast forwarding through halftime of a game or a boring section of a movie and fast forwarding through a commercial, so skipping commercials is fine in the context of a personal recording/playback device such as a DVR, VCR or audio cassette deck.

I'm not really up on the fine points to know whether it is a violation of copyright law to skip commercials during recording - that is, don't save them to the hard drive. My guess is that it would be a violation. Just because a couple niche products (apparently) do this does not mean it is legal - it simply may not be worth it for content owners to go after them.

From the standpoint of content owners, a solution that skips ads during recording is not really different than one that automatically skips during playback, and the latter has been held to be covered by fair use, as that's part of the definition of a personal recording/playback device (i.e. it simply automates the fast forwarding function that all DVRs are capable of) There isn't much point to content owners going after ad skipping during recording, even if they had an airtight case, because the only difference between automated ad skipping during playback and skipping them during recording is saving some hard drive space. The ads aren't getting seen either way, so the content owner would gain nothing if they stopped Plex etc. from skipping ads during recording. Other than maybe the Streisand Effect of making more people aware of it.

Having a playback device present its own ads in the GUI (like the guide or showcase) to the user clearly isn't a violation of copyright - the content owner's content isn't being changed. Running a pre-roll ad that could be incorrectly interpreted by some _as part of the content_ is a different matter. Going even further and inserting ads in the middle of playback would reinforce that perception, though maybe Tivo could get around it by making it clear somehow that it is an ad coming from your Tivo and is not part of the program. For users who don't understand the difference between an ad placed by NBC during an NBC program and a Tivo ad placed at the start of the playback of an NBC program, automatically skipping the content owner's ads during playback AND running a pre-roll ad is tantamount to replacing the content owner's ads with Tivo's. If that was how the courts viewed it, then Tivo's running of pre-roll ads could easily be viewed as a violation of copyright law.


----------



## slice1900

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Ugh ads in the guide? That was like my first Comcast DVR ten years ago. No wonder Live Guide is dead, prolly not enough real estate on screen for ads.


Live Guide is 90% of the reason I stuck with TE3 and never "upgraded" to TE4. When I heard that it was not supported in TE4 I figured it was just because too few people were using it, never considered the reason could be that they were going to sell out the Tivo experience. But I knew then I'd never even bother looking at Hydra. Why check out something I will never use?

If they can't find a way to pollute the Live Guide with ads, that makes it all the better as far as I'm concerned! I despise the traditional grid guide, even when it is like Tivo's and is (for the moment at least) ad free. Looking at the guide on a cable provider's DVR is painful for me because not only do I hate the format itself, but you can see only 2 or 3 channels per screen due to the ads taking up so much space.


----------



## trip1eX

haven't seen it yet on Roamio Plus with TE4. 

i'm not sure it would be a big deal for me since you can skip them from what I'm reading, they are 15 seconds long and i'm often getting settled when I start a show.


----------



## TonyD79

arglebargle2 said:


> Oh I only gave one? Hold on, how many did you ask me to give?
> 
> Oh right...


As I acknowledged. It was a trivial thing that doesn't actually work as you described (I could not reproduce it so I'm calling an error on your part) but you gave one.


----------



## tenthplanet

Live guide is of no use to us that use a Tivo to record when we are not home. Hydra's grid guide is superior for that, I access more info quicker. You couldn't pay me to go back to TE3 and a live guide.


----------



## TonyD79

slowbiscuit said:


> This, 1000%. I don't have an issue with Amazon, Netflix, YouTube doing this. I have a major problem with Tivo doing this, and for them to compare themselves to any content provider/streamer doing pre-rolls is ridiculous.


My problem with TiVo doing this is that they are, effectively, modifying the recorded program by inserting a preroll ad. Seems like they are violating some copyright and programming rights.

It's stupid because they open themselves up to lawsuits about skipping commercials but inserting their own. Even if they win the suits, they are opening themselves up to legal costs.

But my real problem is that I'm betting this is not going to be quick or seamless. I've seen enough of their blue circles to know it is going to cause problems.


----------



## NorthAlabama

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Ugh ads in the guide? That was like my first Comcast DVR ten years ago. No wonder Live Guide is dead, prolly not enough real estate on screen for ads.


well, more accurately, live guide is only dead in te4.


----------



## Davelnlr_

djones18 said:


> I am now getting pre-roll advertisements every time I start a DVR recorded show on my lifetime Bolt+.


Do you have a mini? If so, when you try to play a recording from the Bolt+, does the mini also play the pre-roll ad? If not, I might just use a mini and keep the bolt disconnected from the TV.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> The ads should have been downloaded ahead of time. I certainly hope they arent doing it in realtime.


I don't see much reason why they couldn't do it in realtime. YouTube and Hulu do it. I'd agree that the probably are pre-downloading. All we really need is someone with TE4 who is getting these ads to go into their router and see if their TiVo uses a bunch of bandwidth when they go to start up a show.


----------



## SullyND

I suppose there’s nothing stopping them from adding commercials in the middle either...

...Your program will continue in 15 seconds...


----------



## Joe3

exdishguy said:


> I'm no lawyer but in reviewing the EULA posted here http://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement there are two paragraphs that indicate we'll have little chance at a class action lawsuit. The first is:
> 
> _"TiVo reserves the right to discontinue previously offered features or functionality at its sole discretion and without prior notice. TiVo is not liable to you or to any third party for any modification, suspension, or discontinuance of any feature or component of any TiVo product or service. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."_
> 
> I read this and think it is pretty clear that they can do whatever the hell they want with the software. So those of us that love Live Guide - tough titty. Don't like spinning blue circles? You've got a better chance at suing them for causing dizziness looking at them vs. the fact that they added a feature that causes you to look at spinning blue circles.
> 
> Next up:
> 
> _"With an All-In Plan, you receive those TiVo service features that we make generally available to all customers who have activated a TiVo service subscription for that same TiVo product, except as otherwise noted by TiVo. You may incur separate charges for certain third-party content, services or applications; these items are not considered part of the TiVo service. In addition, TiVo reserves the right to subsequently release, and to charge separate amounts for, new features or functionality which are not made generally available to all customers who have activated TiVo service on a particular TiVo product."_
> 
> It's not difficult to imagine that Tivo could just easily argue that instead of charging us for "new features and functionality" they reverted to ads so that they didn't have to ask us for more money. What are new features and functionality? Dunno but I suppose Hydra, Auto-skip may be examples.
> 
> I could not find the old Lifetime EULA or any earlier EULAs. This one is from last year. It might be interesting to review them.


Of course Rovi will defend themselves in this an other ways, like anyone who is trying to hide the truth, but their actions, repeated pattern of behavior fits a narrative that will show and tell the truth in Court in a class action suit in front of a judge. They can say they're a "ham sandwich," but they're going to have to prove it with so much questionable behavior to the contrary.

Once again, the ads inserted while others can be skipped is the broadcast/network lawsuit not ours.

Ours is a class action lawsuit showing that Rovi misrepresented themselves as a tech company to existing customers and future customers by hiding the true nature of the company as being predatory at the time of acquiring TiVo.


----------



## TostitoBandito

So has anyone been able to get these ads disabled for their device? 

When I first saw them tonight I thought my Tivo was being weird/slow. I was trying to play a recording and it went to a black screen with a spinning circle for a bit and then I lost all video input apart from some chopped up sound. It wouldn't really respond to any input, or it would respond VERY slowly, and it took a good minute to sort of get back to live TV. I rebooted it later on after it did this again on a different recording, and then after the reboot I noticed it was serving the ad. Well, trying to serve the ad. It took a while to load it and then it was all choppy. I tried another recording and it played ok, but it was the same stupid ad each time for "see something say something" or whatever. Also, trying to skip the ad with any sort of button presses is pointless since the Tivo is so laggy and unresponsive while it's serving the ad that it'll take you longer to try to skip it and recover than to just watch it. I'm also curious what happens if your internet is down and you try to watch a recording. Does it just sit there and spin trying to reach the server? 

This is truly awful. As has been said in this thread already, this feature has no business being rolled out to people with lifetime boxes, at the very least.


----------



## exdishguy

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Ugh ads in the guide? That was like my first Comcast DVR ten years ago. No wonder Live Guide is dead, prolly not enough real estate on screen for ads.


Christ - I haven't even thought of that. Good point. Albeit, they could implement it in Live Guide by giving up one row (so 7 channels instead of 8).


----------



## moyekj

TostitoBandito said:


> So has anyone been able to get these ads disabled for their device?
> 
> When I first saw them tonight I thought my Tivo was being weird/slow. I was trying to play a recording and it went to a black screen with a spinning circle for a bit and then I lost all video input apart from some chopped up sound. It wouldn't really respond to any input, or it would respond VERY slowly, and it took a good minute to sort of get back to live TV. I rebooted it later on after it did this again on a different recording, and then after the reboot I noticed it was serving the ad. Well, trying to serve the ad. It took a while to load it and then it was all choppy. I tried another recording and it played ok, but it was the same stupid ad each time for "see something say something" or whatever. Also, trying to skip the ad with any sort of button presses is pointless since the Tivo is so laggy and unresponsive while it's serving the ad that it'll take you longer to try to skip it and recover than to just watch it. I'm also curious what happens if your internet is down and you try to watch a recording. Does it just sit there and spin trying to reach the server?
> 
> This is truly awful. As has been said in this thread already, this feature has no business being rolled out to people with lifetime boxes, at the very least.


Wow, sounds worse than I could have imagined. I'm very curious if you can use the TiVo app to start playing a recording on the TiVo (instead of the using the TiVo itself) and see if that triggers the pre-roll ad as well? i.e. Go to the virtual remote of the App and find a show and start play from there. Also if you happen to be a kmttg user, attempt to start playback from kmttg My Shows table to see what happens.


----------



## slice1900

tenthplanet said:


> Live guide is off no use to us that use a Tivo to record when we are not home. Hydra's grid guide is superior for that, I access more info quicker. You couldn't pay me to go back to TE3 and a live guide.


You do realize the grid guide has ALWAYS been an option, right? It isn't as though using TE3 means you must use the Live Guide.

Also, the app uses the same guide format regardless of whether your Tivo is set to use Live Guide or grid guide...


----------



## krkaufman

Davelnlr_ said:


> Do you have a mini? If so, when you try to play a recording from the Bolt+, does the mini also play the pre-roll ad?


Thank you for the attempt at trying to flesh-out just how far the rollout extends, at present.


----------



## oscarfish

TonyD79 said:


> But my real problem is that I'm betting this is not going to be quick or seamless. I've seen enough of their blue circles to know it is going to cause problems.


To me, this is actually what the the whole thing comes down to. What is the actual experience of having that ad in there. Tivo says they are skippable, but we'll see what that user experience is actually like.

It seems like I am the only person on this thread that pads my recordings. In a best case scenario, now I will have to hit the 30 sec skip button 5 times instead of 4 (I pad by 2 min), or hit the commercial break skip button if that works. All of my recordings already have ads at the beginning, 2 min worth, it's just from the previous program, although sometimes its the previous program itself.

Having 6 tuners and being able to auto pre and post pad a program is one of the great features of a Tivo.

My fear/concern is that this pre-roll ad won't let me queue up 30 sec skips like normal. I'm also suspicious of those BSC blocking the skip presses. I can see lots that could go wrong with integrating a video source from the net with a local video source. Waiting for an ad to download that I'm just going skip would not be optimal.

But if they can make it work like normal skipping (not auto-skip) does mid-program, then it won't actually change much of anything for me. That is until the ad skip feature is turned off, but I'll worry about that then.


----------



## KevTech

TostitoBandito said:


> So has anyone been able to get these ads disabled for their device?


People have called Tivo and said they do not want the ads.

Tivo says they will remove them but it will take up to 72 hours.

I will refer you to this post by djones18: TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording

If you call let us know after three days if the ads stop.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> The fair-use exception to copyright law covers personal, non-commercial use only.


(Just for completeness and as a general matter, the copyright fair-use exception also applies to commercial use--but that type of use figures into the consideration as to whether fair use should apply. E.g. the use of video performance excerpts in news reports and reviews.)


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> They are two legal avenues to go against TiVo, but the argument about ads is the path for a corporation like ad sponsors.
> 
> But the easiest one is for the long term/short term TiVo customers in a class action suit to prove Rovi did not act in good faith, misrepresented themselves to the customer and is fact a corporate predator and not a tech company.


But as I noted a bunch of pages back, and as again is noted above:


exdishguy said:


> I'm no lawyer but in reviewing the EULA posted here http://tivo.pactsafe.io/legal.html#user-agreement there are two paragraphs that indicate we'll have little chance at a class action lawsuit. The first is:
> "TiVo reserves the right to discontinue previously offered features or functionality at its sole discretion and without prior notice. TiVo is not liable to you or to any third party for any modification, suspension, or discontinuance of any feature or component of any TiVo product or service. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."
> I read this and think it is pretty clear that they can do whatever the hell they want with the software. So those of us that love Live Guide - tough titty. Don't like spinning blue circles? You've got a better chance at suing them for causing dizziness looking at them vs. the fact that they added a feature that causes you to look at spinning blue circles.


and


Mikeguy said:


> I haven't read the Terms of Service for a long time, but isn't there a term that says, we (TiVo) can change anything we want at any time for any reason? (But it probably stops short of claiming a right to customers' first-born daughters, lol.)*
> 
> * edit, from the TiVo User Agreement: "Features and functionality are subject to change. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you."


----------



## dianebrat

tenthplanet said:


> Live guide is off no use to us that use a Tivo to record when we are not home. Hydra's grid guide is superior for that, I access more info quicker. You couldn't pay me to go back to TE3 and a live guide.


My TE3 units record things all the time when I'm not home and I'm using the Live Guide exclusively, and the website and Tivo app function just fine when I'm not at home and they use a modified TE4 style guide, I really fail to see how recording or programming when not at home has anything to do with Live vs Hydra guides.


----------



## Hyrax

If I were getting these ads (I'm not), I would try going into my router and schedule (via parental control on my router) the Tivo so it is only allowed to connect to the Internet once a week between the hours of 2 AM and 6 AM. My thinking is that they cannot stream an ad when the Tivo cannot access the Internet.

Has anyone tried this? I don't see how it could cause a problem as long as you give it enough time to download the guide. The only way Tivo could counter this would be to download a lot of ads to your Tivo while it is updating the guide and then insert them into the show. I suspect they would not try this because filling up our hard drives with ads would really get lawyers involved.


----------



## TostitoBandito

oscarfish said:


> To me, this is actually what the the whole thing comes down to. What is the actual experience of having that ad in there. Tivo says they are skippable, but we'll see what that user experience is actually like.
> 
> It seems like I am the only person on this thread that pads my recordings. In a best case scenario, now I will have to hit the 30 sec skip button 5 times instead of 4 (I pad by 2 min), or hit the commercial break skip button if that works. All of my recordings already have ads at the beginning, 2 min worth, it's just from the previous program, although sometimes its the previous program itself.
> 
> Having 6 tuners and being able to auto pre and post pad a program is one of the great features of a Tivo.
> 
> My fear/concern is that this pre-roll ad won't let me queue up 30 sec skips like normal. I'm also suspicious of those BSC blocking the skip presses. I can see lots that could go wrong with integrating a video source from the net with a local video source. Waiting for an ad to download that I'm just going skip would not be optimal.
> 
> But if they can make it work like normal skipping (not auto-skip) does mid-program, then it won't actually change much of anything for me. That is until the ad skip feature is turned off, but I'll worry about that then.


Yeah, I mean if they played a short ad before my recording and it was quick and seamless to load (and responsive if you wanted to back out of it), then I wouldn't be nearly as annoyed. But making my Tivo behave like it's in the process of having a stroke while it's trying to load the stupid ad, and then having the entire process of serving the ad take at least twice as long as the ad itself is unacceptable.


----------



## TKnight206

Mikeguy said:


> I keep on wondering, ok, TiVo, you want to increase revenue, that's understandable and commendable--then do something _positive_. I don't see pre-roll ads as a real "positive" (although I'm willing to accept them--but then they should be turn-off-able in the box settings).
> 
> On the other hand, improved and more meaningful apps and streaming device/technology/content access (as someone else said here, if Roku won't do it for a TiVo box, why doesn't TiVo do it for Roku?), a Mini Wireless Adapter, TiVo apps for streaming devices, a TiVo streaming device, enhanced TiVo remotes (what happened to the Slide Pro remote entirely at this point?), even a TiVo marketplace accessed through TiVo Central (there used to be one, the Showcases), yes, that's positive.


With my legacy Comcast DVR that I used to have, there was an ad at the bottom of the guide... how annoying and a waste of space. With TiVo, no ad there, but then we have the Discovery Bar at the top... along with Pause ads, Delete ads, Folder ads, and TiVo Central ads sometimes showing up. I hate those.

How about offering an ad-free version? I mean completely ad-free. An ad would be something that would generate TiVo revenue, even if it's for placing a TV show up in the Discovery Bar. There is a monetary value to this. What if we, TiVo users, were willing to match that value so we don't see ads anymore? Would it matter if the revenue is coming from current sponsors or TiVo users? This would be optional on top of any monthly, annual, or lifetime subscriptions. Anyone have thoughts on this idea?

I'm basing my comment on "ok, TiVo, you want to increase revenue" mentioned.


----------



## TKnight206

MScottC said:


> I do agree, This scheme is probably a grand mistake. But again, I'm not going to be a an infant kicking and screaming because someone else is making a mistake. What are you really losing, a few seconds of time each time a show starts. Now if they were to start inserting commercials within shows, that's a serious time for me to start considering some action.


The more people who skip the pre-roll ads, the less they're worth. If too many skip them, wouldn't TiVo have incentive to make them unskippable? Or at the very least, force someone to watch five or ten seconds of them before becoming skippable? Commercials have value because people watch them and go out and buy the product.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TKnight206 said:


> With my legacy Comcast DVR that I used to have, there was an ad at the bottom of the guide... how annoying and a waste of space. With TiVo, no ad there, but then we have the Discovery Bar at the top... along with Pause ads, Delete ads, Folder ads, and TiVo Central ads sometimes showing up. I hate those.
> 
> How about offering an ad-free version? I mean completely ad-free. An ad would be something that would generate TiVo revenue, even if it's for placing a TV show up in the Discovery Bar. There is a monetary value to this. What if we, TiVo users, were willing to match that value so we don't see ads anymore? Would it matter if the revenue is coming from current sponsors or TiVo users? This would be optional on top of any monthly, annual, or lifetime subscriptions. Anyone have thoughts on this idea?
> 
> I'm basing my comment on "ok, TiVo, you want to increase revenue" mentioned.


We don't know yet but this could be a new revenue stream from TiVo owners who have lifetime, i.e. paying 4.99 per month to be ad free moving forward. It would not surprise me at all if they remove lifetime as an option when buying a new TiVo to keep folks locked in at a smaller monthly rate.


----------



## TKnight206

PSU_Sudzi said:


> We don't know yet but this could be a new revenue stream from TiVo owners who have lifetime, i.e. paying 4.99 per month to be ad free moving forward. It would not surprise me at all if they remove lifetime as an option when buying a new TiVo to keep folks locked in at a smaller monthly rate.


How many of us would be willing to pay an additional monthly fee to switch back to Gracenote? Optional, of course.


----------



## TonyD79

Bigg said:


> I don't see much reason why they couldn't do it in realtime. YouTube and Hulu do it. I'd agree that the probably are pre-downloading. All we really need is someone with TE4 who is getting these ads to go into their router and see if their TiVo uses a bunch of bandwidth when they go to start up a show.


A bit of a difference for an application that is 100% streaming and tuned for that versus a device that relies on data on the local drive. The latter takes an infrastructure and probably programming change to pull video from a central server efficiently. And we have seen how inefficient all data pulls from the TiVo servers have been.


----------



## TonyD79

Hyrax said:


> If I were getting these ads (I'm not), I would try going into my router and schedule (via parental control on my router) the Tivo so it is only allowed to connect to the Internet once a week between the hours of 2 AM and 6 AM. My thinking is that they cannot stream an ad when the Tivo cannot access the Internet.
> 
> Has anyone tried this? I don't see how it could cause a problem as long as you give it enough time to download the guide. The only way Tivo could counter this would be to download a lot of ads to your Tivo while it is updating the guide and then insert them into the show. I suspect they would not try this because filling up our hard drives with ads would really get lawyers involved.


If you do that, you also eliminate the streaming options from your TiVo (Amazon, Netflix) and severely hamper the graphic loads the TiVo does which could cause slowness all around. And once a week? Guide updates need to be more than that.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TKnight206 said:


> How many of us would be willing to pay an additional monthly fee to switch back to Gracenote? Optional, of course.


They're not gonna give you that option. But it seems they have realized they have ~1 million subs that they have not been monetizing user data well if at all or on a very limited basis and now they want to get in on the action. Maybe its too late or maybe the user base will revolt, the folks on this forum including myself are not happy about it. But maybe the people who are not on TCF don't care that much and if this lowers the point of entry into the TiVo ecosystem, their install base could start creeping forward. Who nose?


----------



## Joe3

TKnight206 said:


> I'm basing my comment on "ok, TiVo, you want to increase revenue" mentioned.


This is an amazing brain washing. Now, they got some of us slowly rationalizing that these ads are somehow acceptable with half-baked logic. Hey! Rovi, you want to increase revenue do it the right way! Improve your product!

But you can't because you have deceived us into believing you are a tech company. You are a predatory corporate raider that used the TiVo brand to hide behind. Your behavior is so obvious and disgusting to what TiVo once stood for and your failure is utterly laughable because you can't even make this disgraceful cheap money grab work because it involves some tech.


----------



## lucidrenegade

A) If you really can get your account exempted from these ads by calling Tivo, do it.
B) If the ads are streamed real time, find the site serving the ads and block it with pi-hole or something similar. Would be interesting to see if doing so causes it to immediately start the recording, or sit there with a spinner trying to contact the ad server.


----------



## WVZR1

They've a 0$ down OTA Bolt offer on the 'main page'. I don't know how long there but maybe 'AD INSERTION' is meant to be a portion of that package. I was told in CHAT the feature could be removed like others have mentioned BUT my Bolt being still in the 'wrapper' I'm trying to do something other than connect and do the ask. I can't use the VOX options so the Bolt I've got was a 'intended video' improvement. Having already lost Xfinity VOD there's little else the Bolt can do for me. Their 'support' case options are unusual in that you can't review a case before commenting further. The 1 thing that L3TV/T-Vision was at least very good with was 'CUSTOMER RELATIONS'! You could open a case, review it, add files/snapshots. It was an actual communications event!!

If in fact the 'AD INSERTION' can be turned off maybe I'd do something different. If my Bolt in the wrapper can still be rolled back to TE3 with ads removed and 'LOCKED' in TE3 then I'm maybe good.

Might be a BOLT CableCARD AISP available soon!


----------



## JoeKustra

WVZR1 said:


> The 1 thing that L3TV/T-Vision was at least very good with was 'CUSTOMER RELATIONS'! You could open a case, review it, add files/snapshots. It was an actual communications event!!
> If in fact the 'AD INSERTION' can be turned of maybe I'd do something different. If my Boly in the wrapper can still be rolled back to TE3 with ads removed an 'LOCKED' in TE3 then I'm maybe good.


Perhaps I don't understand your post, but if you have a case number, like you would for a lineup problem, you can add additional information. From TiVo.com, after you login, select My Support. Find your case and click on the blue part. It should show you a page where you can add data. Now, I don't know if they read it, but you can supply additional data. It sucks that the links are not underlined, so they look like normal text. The addition should generate another email.


----------



## WVZR1

JoeKustra said:


> Perhaps I don't understand your post, but if you have a case number, like you would for a lineup problem, you can add additional information. From TiVo.com, after you login, select My Support. Find your case and click on the blue part. It should show you a page where you can add data. Now, I don't know if they read it, but you can supply additional data. It sucks that the links are not underlined, so they look like normal text. The addition should generate another email.


You can't review the case before supplying additional info! If it were a 'chain' so that you could comment. Your original or the add isn't included in the return email (OR AT LEAST MINE WEREN'T). IT AIN'T A 'CONVERSATION'!!!!!!!


----------



## JoeKustra

Then I guess I didn't understand your post.


----------



## Skye

Any chance that these can be blocked by our routers by figuring out the IP address of the server feeding the ads?


----------



## tgmii

Called this morning to have ads removed. Took about 10 minutes, said 2-3 days. We'll see. Their comment "You know you can skip it, right?" Yup. I refuse. Make it go away, its not what I paid for. We'll see. Its hitting every episode of Elementary with a McAfee ad, so I'll probably know when its gone. I'll post.


----------



## chiguy50

Joe3 said:


> This is an amazing brain washing. Now, they got some of us slowly rationalizing that these ads are somehow acceptable with half-baked logic. Hey! Rovi, you want to increase revenue do it the right way! Improve your product!
> 
> But you can't because you have deceived us into believing you are a tech company. You are a predatory corporate raider that used the TiVo brand to hide behind. Your behavior is so obvious and disgusting to what TiVo once stood for and your failure is utterly laughable because you can't even make this disgraceful cheap money grab work because it involves some tech.


How many times you feel it is necessary to repeat the same hyperbolic vitriol? If you could remain objective and rational, your arguments might carry some weight. As is it, I find you add nothing to the conversation, and I only point this out in the hopes that it might dissuade others from following your overemotional path.

Please don't bother to respond as I have now added you to my (very, very short) ignore list.


----------



## jlb

I have mixed emotions about this.

In principle, I am pissed. And once we know more and see what is going to be the full roll-out plan and all I will voice my feelings with them as a subscriber from back at the turn of the century. 

In practice, I may be willing to live with it for now.

I have a Bolt on TE3 (downgraded from 4). Our needs are rather simple. I have mentioned to my wife that if the box stops functioning totally (it is lifetime), in that if the service ceased to exist totally, we would prob look closely at youtube TV.

In addition to our TiVo Bolt, we also have an apple TV and also have subs to Prime, Hulu, and Netflix, and use all 3 of those equally. Oh, we will also have a year free of Apple TV+ as we are buying our daughter a new phone in a few weeks.

With prime and hulu we get pre roll stuff. It's not the end of the world. So TiVo doing this is something I can get used to (process-wise) if I have to. 

The things that will upset me, together, would be forcing me onto TE4 and a very poor implementation of the pre-roll ads that could cause the box to boot or lag or whatever.

TiVo has my money because I very much like the service/interface (TE3). if that stays mostly intact then I will be ok.

Again, I will still speak my voice as best as I Can, but with a LT box, there's really no way to put more weight behind my feelings as they already have my money.


----------



## WVZR1

jlb said:


> I have mixed emotions about this.
> 
> In principle, I am pissed. And once we know more and see what is going to be the full roll-out plan and all I will voice my feelings with them as a subscriber from back at the turn of the century.
> 
> In practice, I may be willing to live with it for now.
> 
> I have a Bolt on TE3 (downgraded from 4). Our needs are rather simple. I have mentioned to my wife that if the box stops functioning totally (it is lifetime), in that if the service ceased to exist totally, we would prob look closely at youtube TV.
> 
> In addition to our TiVo Bolt, we also have an apple TV and also have subs to Prime, Hulu, and Netflix, and use all 3 of those equally. Oh, we will also have a year free of Apple TV+ as we are buying our daughter a new phone in a few weeks.
> 
> With prime and hulu we get pre roll stuff. It's not the end of the world. So TiVo doing this is something I can get used to (process-wise) if I have to.
> 
> The things that will upset me, together, would be forcing me onto TE4 and a very poor implementation of the pre-roll ads that could cause the box to boot or lag or whatever.
> 
> TiVo has my money because I very much like the service/interface (TE3). if that stays mostly intact then I will be ok.
> 
> Again, I will still speak my voice as best as I Can, but with a LT box, there's really no way to put more weight behind my feelings as they already have my money.


You've got presently what I'm asking them to 'commit to' before removing the wrapper and connecting my less than 60 day old Bolt CableCARD VOX.


----------



## krkaufman

chiguy50 said:


> How many times you feel it is necessary to repeat the same hyperbolic vitriol?


----------



## jlb

I guess I should add that for my wife and I, there’s still a decent amount of content we do like to get from cable so I sorta want to keep things going with TiVo as long as I can


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## krkaufman

WVZR1 said:


> You've got presently what I'm asking them to 'commit to' before removing the wrapper and connecting my less than 60 day old Bolt CableCARD VOX.


Wrapper, schmapper, just return the thing giving the pre-roll ads as the reason ... unless you got the unit at a discount that you feel won't be available later.


----------



## WVZR1

krkaufman said:


> Wrapper, schmapper, just return the thing giving the pre-roll ads as the reason ... unless you got the unit at a discount that you feel won't be available later.


It was actually done with the 'Summer Sale'. I can't speak well enough any longer to use VOX so the roll back to TE3 as well as remove the 'pre-roll' is important.


----------



## jlb

Question....the ads truly are PRE-roll, right? I.e., they only kick in when you start a program from the beginning, right? It won't happen when you pick up in the middle of a program or resuming after a pause?


----------



## JoeKustra

FYI: @TiVo_Ted paid us a visit yesterday.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

JoeKustra said:


> FYI: @TiVo_Ted paid us a visit yesterday.


I guess we'll see if there is any news from him on this or not.


----------



## jlb

JoeKustra said:


> FYI: @TiVo_Ted paid us a visit yesterday.


do tell.....


----------



## OrangeCrush

Rkkeller said:


> Let us all be real, no one is going back to their crappy cable DVR's so good to bellyache, but looks like we are going to be stuck with it for now. I know I am not going back to the buggy, limited space, recording problems, season pass problems of my providers DVR.


I'm not going back to cable, period. My Roamio & four minis were a great solution for OTA for a while but their app platform is a ghost town and I've given up hope that TiVo will ever be a viable one-remote solution with my streaming services all in one place. There were supposed to be apps for Roku & Fire TV by now, still nowhere in sight, and the mobile app and out of home streaming situation is still basically unusable.

Pre-roll ads are just the cherry on top. I'm done. Everything's listed on eBay, and all my TiVo hardware will be gone by the end of the week.



trip1eX said:


> i'm not sure it would be a big deal for me since you can skip them from what I'm reading, they are 15 seconds long and i'm often getting settled when I start a show.


Ah yes, "it's not that bad." Yet. That's the old "boiling a frog" method of adding customer-hostile anti-features to equipment I've already paid quite a lot of money for. No thanks.

I'm also not cool with my TiVo launching some kind of ad-display app before I try to play a recording. I've had my box freeze and crash trying to launch netflix, amazon and hulu enough times to be really wary of them adding any new chores to the Roamio's underpowered SoC. It might just be a 15 second ad, but how long is that blue circle going to spin before and after it plays? The load times for the streaming apps are pretty terrible, so I'm not filled with confidence on that one. And if their stupid ad causes my box to freeze or reboot, I'm liable to rip it out of my entertainment center and smash it to bits. Needless to say, I won't be sticking around to find out.


----------



## Charles R

chiguy50 said:


> Please don't bother to respond as I have now added you to my (very, very short) ignore list.


Welcome to the club.


----------



## krkaufman

WVZR1 said:


> It was actually done with the 'Summer Sale'. I can't speak well enough any longer to use VOX so the roll back to TE3 as well as remove the 'pre-roll' is important.


So you'll be running TE3, regardless, and it's unlikely that we'll see the pre-roll ads extending to TE3 before your return window closes -- which is just 30 days, not 60, right? If anything, waiting to initialize the box may cross the point where TiVo decides that TE4 BOLTs are no longer allowed to rollback.

'gist: I can't see why your unit is still boxed, if you'll be running TE3, anyway. (I don't need to understand, of course.)


----------



## jwbelcher

krkaufman said:


> Thank you for the attempt at trying to flesh-out just how far the rollout extends, at present.


"at present" is exactly right. It's only a matter of time until the mobile TiVo apps receive this "feature". I'm actually surprised it didn't start on the apps first since they're "free" downloads.

This is the just the beginning, but for me it's the end.


----------



## WVZR1

krkaufman said:


> 'gist: I can't see why your unit is still boxed, if you'll be running TE3, anyway. (I don't need to understand, of course.)


That is the 'gist of my questions to TiVo - Since the 'PRE-ROLL' started is the TE4 'lock' already a done deal. In the 'wrapper' might still be conversational. Having lost Xfinity VOD and NOT being able to use VOX maybe there's TiVo considerations! Who knows and yes you don't need to 'understand'!!

***In the 'wrapper' and with a 3 year warranty might increase 'sale-ability'. Who knows! If TiVo just came forward and explained to AISP holders the options 'all would be well'! I ain't bothered either way!


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

jlb said:


> do tell.....


If you look at his TCF profile you can see his last visit was yesterday.


----------



## NashGuy

KevTech said:


> Are you talking about the pre roll or regular ads presented during a recording?
> 
> Pre roll you have to push a button to skip the ads.
> 
> If you set skipmode to automatic you just start the recording and all ads during the recording are automatically skipped.


Ah, OK. When I said you had to push a button to skip ads in SkipMode, I was referring to regular ads in the recording. I had forgotten that TiVo updated their SkipMode feature to allow for automatic skipping without the need to press the button at the start of each ad break.

So now TiVo lets users opt once into full auto-skipping of ads. They clearly don't seem too afraid of hacking off the powers-that-be. I guess as long as they make such a feature optional on TiVo boxes for pay TV partners, they're not concerned about the impact that ad-skipping on their retail devices might have on their business relationships.


----------



## mschnebly

My prediction is that in a couple of months TiVo folks will be saying "It's not that bad. A few extra button pushes wont matter. We can live with it because TiVo is the bestest DVR ever!"
The real anger will build as cable companies move to IPTV for most of the good channels and cable cards become as rare as hen's teeth. The really good thing is that we have choices like never before to control where and how we get our content.


----------



## Joe3

chiguy50 said:


> How many times you feel it is necessary to repeat the same hyperbolic vitriol? If you could remain objective and rational, your arguments might carry some weight. As is it, I find you add nothing to the conversation, and I only point this out in the hopes that it might dissuade others from following your overemotional path.
> .


You hope to dissuade others from thinking about or starting a class action suit. The objective rational is that you solve a problem where it is and speak.


----------



## krkaufman

WVZR1 said:


> Since the 'PRE-ROLL' started is the TE4 'lock' already a done deal.


Clearly not based on the numerous reports of others successfully rolling-back their TE4 BOLTs to TE3 since this thread began.



WVZR1 said:


> In the 'wrapper' might still be conversational.


wuh?


----------



## jlb

PSU_Sudzi said:


> If you look at his TCF profile you can see his last visit was yesterday.


 LOL....I read it as maybe Ted actually visited Dan. silly me.


----------



## jlb

Has anyone with TE3 seen ads yet?


----------



## humbb

TKnight206 said:


> How many of us would be willing to pay an additional monthly fee to switch back to Gracenote? Optional, of course.


I might actually (could be, possibly) be talked into living with pre-roll skippable ads if TiVo rolled their new revenue into a Gracenote guide switch. Maaaaybe.


----------



## slice1900

mschnebly said:


> My prediction is that in a couple of months TiVo folks will be saying "It's not that bad. A few extra button pushes wont matter. We can live with it because TiVo is the bestest DVR ever!"
> The real anger will build as cable companies move to IPTV for most of the good channels and cable cards become as rare as hen's teeth. The really good thing is that we have choices like never before to control where and how we get our content.


I think this fear of cable cards going away is overblown. I could easily see them going IPTV only if/when they offer 4K channels - that requires new hardware anyway so they can make the new hardware use IPTV for those channels. But they can't convert say HBO or ESPN to use IPTV only unless they've upgraded every receiver in the field to be IPTV capable. Going IPTV is basically an all or nothing proposition for HD.

How many cable companies are still on MPEG2, or still have SD duplicates of HD channels? I know Comcast has converted to MPEG4 in some markets, so if ALL of the MPEG4 receivers in those markets are IPTV capable they might be able to consider taking them IPTV only. Is any other cable company as close as they are along that path?

My cable company (Mediacom) still uses MPEG2 and still has SD duplicate channels, so I feel 100% confident they won't go IPTV until long after my Bolt gives up the ghost or I give up my Bolt because Tivo decides to start shoving ads in my face on TE3.


----------



## NashGuy

slice1900 said:


> The point is that there is no "existing law" to allow DVRs.


What you mean is that there's no existing *statutory law* passed by Congress that allows DVR usage. There is, however, *case law* that has emerged through court rulings that allows DVR usage. I knew that there was no statute on the books explicitly permitting DVR usage. (It's pretty rare for legislative bodies to pass laws explicitly confirming that a particular act is _legal_. The presumption is that any act is legal unless and until a law says otherwise.) When I referred to existing law regarding DVR usage, I was talking about the body of case law that developed in the courts when IP owners in the past sued makers of VCRs, DVRs, etc.



slice1900 said:


> Copyright law expressly bans all "retransmission" of cable/satellite/OTA broadcasts, and DVR playback is indisputably such a retransmission under copyright law. Fair use carves out a narrow window which allows such playback for personal use only. So you can do it at home, but a bar can't record a game and play it back later - that's why Directv/etc. won't allow bars/restaurants to have DVRs. They would be seen as accessories to any copyright violations that occurred if they if they did. As far as copyright is concerned, there's no difference between fast forwarding through halftime of a game or a boring section of a movie and fast forwarding through a commercial, so skipping commercials is fine in the context of a personal recording/playback device such as a DVR, VCR or audio cassette deck.


Yes, agreed.



slice1900 said:


> I'm not really up on the fine points to know whether it is a violation of copyright law to skip commercials during recording - that is, don't save them to the hard drive. My guess is that it would be a violation. Just because a couple niche products (apparently) do this does not mean it is legal - it simply may not be worth it for content owners to go after them.


Yes, I agree with what you're saying but I'm not sure why you're off on this specific question of avoiding the recording of ads in the broadcast signal in the first place. (I didn't bring it up -- I referred to the "excision," i.e. surgical removal, of ads from completed recordings.) I don't know of any products, niche or otherwise, that do not record ads to the hard drive. When you say "niche products," I assume you're referring to Plex, Channels Plus, etc., but those products record the entire broadcast, including ads, and then allow the user to turn on a setting that either alters the recorded file to cut out the ads, or to auto-skip over the ads during playback (as TiVo allows).



slice1900 said:


> From the standpoint of content owners, a solution that skips ads during recording is not really different than one that automatically skips during playback, and the latter has been held to be covered by fair use, as that's part of the definition of a personal recording/playback device (i.e. it simply automates the fast forwarding function that all DVRs are capable of) There isn't much point to content owners going after ad skipping during recording, even if they had an airtight case, because the only difference between automated ad skipping during playback and skipping them during recording is saving some hard drive space. The ads aren't getting seen either way, so the content owner would gain nothing if they stopped Plex etc. from skipping ads during recording. Other than maybe the Streisand Effect of making more people aware of it.
> 
> Having a playback device present its own ads in the GUI (like the guide or showcase) to the user clearly isn't a violation of copyright - the content owner's content isn't being changed.


Yes, agreed.



slice1900 said:


> Running a pre-roll ad that could be incorrectly interpreted by some _as part of the content_ is a different matter. Going even further and inserting ads in the middle of playback would reinforce that perception, though maybe Tivo could get around it by making it clear somehow that it is an ad coming from your Tivo and is not part of the program. For users who don't understand the difference between an ad placed by NBC during an NBC program and a Tivo ad placed at the start of the playback of an NBC program, automatically skipping the content owner's ads during playback AND running a pre-roll ad is tantamount to replacing the content owner's ads with Tivo's. If that was how the courts viewed it, then Tivo's running of pre-roll ads could easily be viewed as a violation of copyright law.


Yeah, maybe. Although that seems like a pretty weak case to me and one that could be defeated by TiVo, as you say, using an on-screen notification that their ads are their own. Lots of forced streaming ads in apps like Hulu, Tubi, etc. have some kind of count-down notification on screen showing you how far you are through the ad pod (e.g. ad 2 of 3, :37 remaining). They could simply include "Ads from TiVo" in that on-screen graphic and make it clear in the product's initial guided set-up and user terms that "Ads from TiVo" are coming from TiVo's servers and are in no way affiliated with the providers of the content that they appear next to. And as far as the skipping of the original broadcast ads, I'd think TiVo would treat that the same as they do now with SkipMode: make it a user opt-in and, once set, it would automatically happen on all recordings. (Maybe TiVo would, like other DVR services, decide to use AI to set the start and end of each broadcast ad pod for SkipMode purposes as opposed to having human monitors manually mark the skip points.)


----------



## schatham

WVZR1 said:


> They've a 0$ down OTA Bolt offer on the 'main page'. I don't know how long there but maybe 'AD INSERTION' is meant to be a portion of that package. I was told in CHAT the feature could be removed like others have mentioned BUT my Bolt being still in the 'wrapper' I'm trying to do something other than connect and do the ask. I can't use the VOX options so the Bolt I've got was a 'intended video' improvement. Having already lost Xfinity VOD there's little else the Bolt can do for me. Their 'support' case options are unusual in that you can't review a case before commenting further. The 1 thing that L3TV/T-Vision was at least very good with was 'CUSTOMER RELATIONS'! You could open a case, review it, add files/snapshots. It was an actual communications event!!
> 
> If in fact the 'AD INSERTION' can be turned off maybe I'd do something different. If my Bolt in the wrapper can still be rolled back to TE3 with ads removed and 'LOCKED' in TE3 then I'm maybe good.
> 
> Might be a BOLT CableCARD AISP available soon!


That zero down Bolt is not related to the ads, it's zero down with a higher monthly rate. I have one of the cable card zero down bolts, it's $20 a month vs $15 a month for 2 years.

On a side note, not on demand, but HBO Go now works on Comcast.


----------



## exdishguy

jlb said:


> Has anyone with TE3 seen ads yet?


Rumor has it that it is coming to TE3. I'm guessing we have a few months but that is a total WAG. Curious to see if those who called customer service to "opt out" actually gets rid of the pre-roll ads. The concern I have is that the bloatware designed to support this wonderful ad system is likely still there so who knows if the performance hit, spinning circles, etc. are still there after we opt out.


----------



## jlb

We shall see


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I don't see much reason why they couldn't do it in realtime. YouTube and Hulu do it. I'd agree that the probably are pre-downloading. All we really need is someone with TE4 who is getting these ads to go into their router and see if their TiVo uses a bunch of bandwidth when they go to start up a show.


If you look at the video, and the blue spinning circle at the start of the pre-roll ad, and then combine that with reports that skipping past the ad is sluggish (not like regular SkipMode ad skipping), all that indicates to me that TiVo is live-streaming the pre-roll ad.


----------



## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> If you look at the video, and the blue spinning circle at the start of the pre-roll ad, and then combine that with reports that skipping past the ad is sluggish (not like regular SkipMode ad skipping), all that indicates to me that TiVo is live-streaming the pre-roll ad.


That's my guess as well. It makes me wonder what effect disconnecting the internet connection to the TiVo would have.


----------



## JoeKustra

NashGuy said:


> If you look at the video, and the blue spinning circle at the start of the pre-roll ad, and then combine that with reports that skipping past the ad is sluggish (not like regular SkipMode ad skipping), all that indicates to me that TiVo is live-streaming the pre-roll ad.


I think that BSC is a good indication that the pre-roll is from a different server. I'm still at a loss how they made this work without a software update. I'm afraid it means there is no internal TiVo time-out should that server go down. That would be serious.

@tarheelblue32, we posted at the same time. I hope that the ad is triggered by the TiVo starting a playback of a recording. If not, I'm even more worried now.


----------



## Joe3

mschnebly said:


> My prediction is that in a couple of months TiVo folks will be saying "It's not that bad. A few extra button pushes wont matter. We can live with it because TiVo is the bestest DVR ever!".


Yes, this is exactly what current TiVo management and their drones want to happen. The slow drip, drip of its not that bad, everybody does it. They don't my friends. They make their product better, not worse.


----------



## Mikeguy

WVZR1 said:


> It was actually done with the 'Summer Sale'. I can't speak well enough any longer to use VOX so the roll back to TE3 as well as remove the 'pre-roll' is important.


And the good news currently seems to be, you can take the Bolt box out of the wrapper and use it to your needs and satisfaction: you still can sidegrade back to TE3; and further, it's unknown if the pre-roll ads ever will be coming to TE3 (at least, that rollout doesn't seem to be occurring at present)--if it does, and if what the TiVo customer service reps. say really is the case (we'll know yet this week), you then can opt-out of the pre-roll ads through a telephone call.


----------



## Mikeguy

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I guess we'll see if there is any news from him on this or not.


That is, if he actually wants to step in here.


----------



## CaseyJ

moyekj said:


> Wow, sounds worse than I could have imagined. I'm very curious if you can use the TiVo app to start playing a recording on the TiVo (instead of the using the TiVo itself) and see if that triggers the pre-roll ad as well? i.e. Go to the virtual remote of the App and find a show and start play from there. Also if you happen to be a kmttg user, attempt to start playback from kmttg My Shows table to see what happens.


That is exactly how I thought it would happen.

Now I imagine it may even be worse. For some or in some set of circumstances, I can imagine you start to play a recording and get a blue circle and no response from any button, ever, with the only recourse is to pull the plug. I can even imagine this happening every time you try to play a recording, rendering the DRV function useless. I don't know this will happen, but we now know that a long delay (a minute or more) is possible before every recording. No sense worrying about this now.

If the pre-roll ads only run the first time a recording is played, maybe kmttg can play each new recording each night for a short duration so that the user is actually resuming.

Thanks for everything you do for the fantastic kmttg.


----------



## WVZR1

schatham said:


> That zero down Bolt is not related to the ads, it's zero down with a higher monthly rate. I have one of the cable card zero down bolts, it's $20 a month vs $15 a month for 2 years.
> 
> On a side note, not on demand, but HBO Go now works on Comcast.


Thank you!

I believe it was your original Xfinity XG1V4 and TiVo that I used for some decision making! Right now I've the XG1V4 & a Mini @ the main and a 3TB Roamio @ a 2d location. I'm quite happy with it. My Bolt buy was the Summer Sale and I thought it would do well with a 4K display that's actually not installed yet. I bought a Mini VOX for the 4K main display, rolled it to TE3 and it worked well. I did go back to the A9300 Mini just because the Samsung 1080P display, the Yamaha AVR and the A9300 seemed to work better with the CEC than the A9500 Mini VOX. Don't yet know why!


----------



## tarheelblue32

CaseyJ said:


> Now I imagine it may even be worse. For some or in some set of circumstances, I can imagine you start to play a recording and get a blue circle and no response from any button, ever, with the only recourse is to pull the plug. I can even imagine this happening every time you try to play a recording, rendering the DRV function useless. I don't know this will happen, but we now know that a long delay (a minute or more) is possible before every recording. No sense worrying about this now.


I imagine the effect will be even worse on a Mini. My Minis lock up almost every time they get a spinning blue circle and the only option is to pull the plug. If that happens every time I try to watch a recording from a Mini, it effectively renders recorded playback from Minis impossible for me.


----------



## tommage1

This is bad enough for those with one Tivo. I myself have 6. Only one on TE4 (and I'm thinking of rolling that back). If they extend it to TE3 would not be good for me unless they can do a blanket roll back for my account, all the devices. One other thing, since the ads are most likely a streaming thing they would be using internet. Probably not affect most users but I have DSL and am capped at 150GB monthly. Doing no streaming I usually use 30-60GB a month, Tivos and computers. If they start using internet to stream ads have no idea how much that would use, the prices if I go over 150GB is per GB or per 10GB and it is a LOT. There is no plan over 150GB, anything over is billed by how much you go over.


----------



## Mikeguy

exdishguy said:


> Rumor has it that it is coming to TE3. I'm guessing we have a few months but that is a total WAG.


Yeah, from what I've seen, that rumor is pure speculation, based on what non-TiVo people think _could_ happen next. IMHO, it goes in the bin of, we'll have to see what happens/if any further info. actually comes out. Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me, but as you said, it's WAG-time.


Joe3 said:


> This is an amazing brain washing. Now, they got some of us slowly rationalizing that these ads are somehow acceptable with half-baked logic. Hey! Rovi, you want to increase revenue do it the right way! Improve your product!
> 
> But you can't because you have deceived us into believing you are a tech company. You are a predatory corporate raider that used the TiVo brand to hide behind. Your behavior is so obvious and disgusting to what TiVo once stood for and your failure is utterly laughable because you can't even make this disgraceful cheap money grab work because it involves some tech.


Do keep in mind: TiVo, not Rovi, brought out pause ads (as well as had the ad Showcase). I don't know if matters would be different, now, had the Rovi acquisition not occurred--from everything people say, TiVo needs the income.


----------



## WVZR1

Mikeguy said:


> And the good news currently seems to be, you can take the Bolt box out of the wrapper and use it to your needs and satisfaction: you still can sidegrade back to TE3; and further, it's unknown if the pre-roll ads ever will be coming to TE3 (at least, that rollout doesn't seem to be occurring at present)--if it does, and if what the TiVo customer service reps. say really is the case (we'll know yet this week), you then can opt-out of the pre-roll ads through a telephone call.


All I've tried to do is originate a conversation w/TiVo through support that what you've mentioned is 'FACT' and not 'FICTION or TO BE ASSUMED'. Only a response from TiVo will answer my questions. Right now or as of the 'FEATURE ROLL-OUT' I can assume nothing! Telephone call isn't an option for me!!


----------



## reneg

JoeKustra said:


> I think that BSC is a good indication that the pre-roll is from a different server. I'm still at a loss how they made this work without a software update. I'm afraid it means there is no internal TiVo time-out should that server go down. That would be serious.


It wouldn't surprise me if Tivo resurrected the Video Showcase technology that they used in the dial up days to record content (ads/promos) during overnight paid commercial blocks and save them to a small local partition. Still not sure how they could have made it work without an update unless it was already latent in the code.


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> I hope that the ad is triggered by the TiVo starting a playback of a recording. If not, I'm even more worried now.


From one of the news reports (actually, they all seem to be based on that first one), I believe it was explained that the pre-roll would occur once, when a recording first was played back, and that the pre-roll then would not recur for that show.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.

As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo’s consumer business model.

The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance. 

We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


----------



## tarheelblue32

reneg said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Tivo resurrected the Video Showcase technology that they used in the dial up days to record content (ads/promos) during overnight paid commercial blocks and save them to a small local partition. Still not sure how they could have made it work without an update unless it was already latent in the code.


They've probably been planning this for a while, so had already programmed it into the software and only now have decided to implement it.


----------



## tommage1

tommage1 said:


> . Am going to use Tivo online to transfer recordings from the Bolt to the Premiere (I think using Tivo online you can transfer entire folders, doing direct one show at a time?).


Sadly Tivo online does not work for my transfers. For one it's either individual shows or "all", no folders. I have about 2TB and 1600 shows to transfer, most in folders, some over 200 shows in a folder. I tried the "all", SAYS it has started but it never works, does not transfer anything nor does it go into the to do list. Most I was able to do with Tivo online was like 10 individual at one time. So might as well just do Tivo to Tivo from the Tivos, whew, 1600 shows individually, could take weeks.


----------



## Mikeguy

CaseyJ said:


> If the pre-roll ads only run the first time a recording is played, maybe kmttg can play each new recording each night for a short duration so that the user is actually resuming.


You have a wonderfully devious mind. :up:


----------



## Mikeguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


First, welcome back here, Ted, and, most importantly, I hope that you are doing ok and only feel better! Food poisoning is no fun (I had a mild case last evening as well). Take care of yourself, please. Too much CEDIA partying? 

2 questions, if you might be able to respond: 1. Can a customer opt out of the pre-roll ads, as the TiVo customer service reps. have been saying and processing the past couple of days? 2. Is pre-roll also coming to TE3?

I'll also sneak in a third question: you may have noticed, the pre-roll transitioning can seem a bit rough--will that be smoothed out? From one of your latter points, presumably, yes?


----------



## Charles R

A little recap...


Tivo via an open case stated I could opt-out of the pre-roll ads by calling in and having my account updated - since I haven't been hit with them yet I can't say for sure.
Hasn't everyone who has experienced ads been on the same/newer release?
Has someone with a Roamio experienced the ads? I only remember Bolts.
Has someone with ads disconnected the TiVo from the Internet to see what happens? Checking how gracefully it handles them being unavailable - similar to blocking access via pi-hole or some such.
If you have AutoSkip active does it jump beyond the ad? Right now with AudoSkip my recordings jump over the one minute buffer right into the show.
Has anyone with ads found out which servers are being used?


----------



## exdishguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


Is there any truth to what Tivo Customer Service has told some customers regarding being able to "opt out" and that their boxes won't see the ads within 72 hours of calling? And if its true, does this simply mean the user will see a blue circle waiting for an ad that never appears (because of opting out)?

I won't bother telling you how unhappy we all are. Please pass along a big "thank you" to Weatherboy for this act of brilliant "strategery."


----------



## WVZR1

It would seem that a TiVo response regarding Bolt and TE3 would be a 'responsible thing to do'!! If it's not coming to TE3 on Bolts maybe with the 'FALL SEASON PREMIERES' this week a person w/Bot and TE4 would rather roll back for however long even thou it removes all 'stored content'. TiVo I'd think could clarify and make decisions much easier than it's been!!

It certainly has and will I think effect the 'Word of Mouth' TiVo Experience!!!!!!


----------



## Mikeguy

WVZR1 said:


> All I've tried to do is originate a conversation w/TiVo through support that what you've mentioned is 'FACT' and not 'FICTION or TO BE ASSUMED'. Only a response from TiVo will answer my questions. Right now or as of the 'FEATURE ROLL-OUT' I can assume nothing! Telephone call isn't an option for me!!


It's good to confirm fact from fiction. As people have posted here, TiVo customer service reps. have told them that the customers indeed can opt out of the pre-roll ad "program" (we'll see if that actually occurs this week). Perhaps TiVo_Ted (see his recent post a bit up above) will have further info. on that.

And, as far as I am aware,* one still can sidegrade from TE4 back to TE3 (although, not on the specifically-named "Bolt OTA" model--sidegrading never has been possible on it, apparently). Perhaps TiVo_Ted also will have info. on whether pre-roll also will be coming to TE3.

* No one reporting otherwise.


----------



## egeek84

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


Thanks for the update Ted. Question, some people are reporting that they are able to call the 800 number to have the ads disabled on their account within 72 hours. Is this true?


----------



## Charles R

TiVo_Ted said:


> This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.


I would humbly suggest this thread focus on ad serving and not into "cheerleading" the future direction of TiVo... as it (again) appears to not respect your customers or their concerns.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommage1 said:


> Probably not affect most users but I have DSL and am capped at 150GB monthly. Doing no streaming I usually use 30-60GB a month, Tivos and computers. If they start using internet to stream ads have no idea how much that would use, the prices if I go over 150GB is per GB or per 10GB and it is a LOT. There is no plan over 150GB, anything over is billed by how much you go over.


I assume (always dangerous) that the data hit would be low (I mean, people already get served ads when surfing on the Internet), but you raise a good point, especially to the degree that the ads are HD and/or data-intensive.

And, thinking more on it, it also easily could mount up, a lot, where people are watching most or many of their shows as TiVo-recorded, and watch a lot. I watch too much television, as assisted by TiVo.

Spoken here as a fellow 150GB-limited compatriot (and where I need to watch that limit on months when I've done more downloading or uploading).


----------



## Mikeguy

Charles R said:


> TiVo_Ted said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> 
> 
> I would humbly suggest this thread focus on ad serving . . . .
Click to expand...

(Personally, I'd _love_ to hear more about TiVo's broader initiative to modernize its consumer business model, but I understand your concern about the whale swallowing the guppy in this thread. I'd love to see a separate thread on that topic, as we're generally only reading Internet rumors and "scoops" in the press.)


----------



## jlb

Mikeguy said:


> From one of the news reports.......the pre-roll would occur once, when a recording first was played back, and that the pre-roll then would not recur for that show.





TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> ..........
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. ........To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). ........


First, Ted, I hope you are feeling better. Food poisoning is no fun at all.

Now, there's an ambiguity here that should be addressed if we can. When you start playing a show, for the very first time, does it set some form of flag? What I am trying to get at is when you are done watching a show, where you have played it through to completion, but you don't delete it, when you next go back into the NP list, and select that show (where you get the details before you actually start PLAYING it), it appears like it hasn't been played yet (where it says "play" rather than "resume playing"). So I guess what I am trying to ask/find out is if subsequent (re)play of a show would cause an ad to get served when you first start playback on your rewatch?

Ted, as others have also asked, I would like to know if this will come to TE3 and if there are any immediate plans to force upgrade to TE4? If that were the case, this particular long-time owner with one LT Bolt would not be happy.


----------



## Charles R

Mikeguy said:


> (Personally, I'd _love_ to hear more about TiVo's broader initiative to modernize its consumer business model, but I understand your concern about the whale swallowing the guppy in this thread.


I see it as... I'm "mad" about "X" and they will only talk about "Y"... not exactly respecting my concerns. It's still early (in the game) however at this point I think the lack of PR has had more affect than the ads themselves. I know it currently has more influence (rightfully or wrongfully) on whether I drop TiVo or not. If it was "handled" properly sure it would still raise a stink... however not to this degree.

Their "initiative" appears to be make available as many free ad based streaming channels as they can sign-up and hope you watch enough to get a decent cut. What more do you need to know?


----------



## lucidrenegade

egeek84 said:


> Thanks for the update Ted. Question, some people are reporting that they are able to call the 800 number to have the ads disabled on their account within 72 hours. Is this true?


I'll be surprised if you get an answer to this (from Tivo anyway). Why would they implement forced ads and then tell everyone how to disable them?


----------



## mazman

TiVo_Ted said:


> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


First, sorry about the food poisoning. Seems to happen most often away from home. Hope you're better.
Can you provide an update as to the progress with a new Comcast VOD app?


----------



## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> I imagine the effect will be even worse on a Mini. My Minis lock up almost every time they get a spinning blue circle and the only option is to pull the plug. If that happens every time I try to watch a recording from a Mini, it effectively renders recorded playback from Minis impossible for me.


Maybe pre-roll ads won't be forced on Minis, and this is really just TiVo's way to shift us all to using Minis as our primary boxes ... in preparation for rollout of a headless DVR box.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Mikeguy said:


> That is, if he actually wants to step in here.


I imagine his last visit went something like this:










Edit: I stand corrected! He posted a little earlier in this thread!


----------



## Tony_T

Does anyone believe that TiVo will not expand pre-roll to rolling?
TiVo has marked the _other_ commercials for skip, so they know where to insert their ads. 
And 15 seconds will quickly expand to more seconds and more ads (and skip will probably skip to the next commercial).

These are just my pessimistic predictions.


----------



## krkaufman

TiVo_Ted said:


> To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF).


Does this consistency extend to the configured AutoSkip setting?



TiVo_Ted said:


> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


I'd have zero issue were the pre-roll ads limited to TiVo+ (or if the AutoSkip setting was honored, or if the ads were only rolled-out to new or discounted service plans).


----------



## Tony_T

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


This, in a word, sucks. 
Put the ads in the Tivo+ service, and have a second tier for ad free.
See: Hulu


----------



## hawk521

Isn't this similar to buying an electric bicycle, and months later being notified by the manufacturer that the first mile at the start of each ride will now REQUIRE YOU TO PEDDLE? 

Seriously - easy avoidance of time consuming ads has always been one of the primary reasons that Tivo has been successful over the years! They even took it a step further with the "SKIP" functionality which was an impressive and daring step forward. These things brought me to buy my Tivo. BUT........

What in the world are they thinking by inserting their own ads? The imposition of these ads is the antithesis of what Tivo has promoted for its entire existence. I sincerely hope that smarter management people will prevail and drop these ads before the Tivo brand is too severely tarnished to survive.

I'd feel a little better if Tivo would offer to refund my lifetime subscription payment (paid within the past 90 days). If not for this rather huge investment I'd be totally inclined to rethink my Tivo decision and move toward a cord cutting solution that didn't involve Tivo. And who knows? After being aggravated continuously by these startup ads enough I may well park this Tivo and try OTA and streaming. My patience is being sorely tested!


----------



## mazman

krkaufman said:


> Does this consistency extend to the configured AutoSkip setting?
> 
> I'd have zero issue were the pre-roll ads limited to TiVo+ (or if the AutoSkip setting was honored, or if the ads were only rolled-out to new or discounted service plans).


I'd feel different about the pre-roll ads if TiVo stated they were using the additional income stream to provide additional core features like IPTV.


----------



## drweb

Lurker1 said:


> This is being discussed in a separate thread:
> TiVo Alternatives?


Thank you, heading over there now...


----------



## jonw747

mazman said:


> I'd feel different about the pre-roll ads if TiVo stated they were using the additional income stream to provide additional core features like IPTV.


TiVo_TED said they're looking in to adding new TiVo channels, which would pretty much have to be IPTV.

I don't have a problem if new free content includes Ads, and it would be a nice if there was an option to have the TiVo subscription fee replaced by Ads. Kind of like Ad-free Hulu .vs. Ad-based Hulu.

But there shouldn't be pre-roll Ads on subscription or lifetime boxes.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Mikeguy said:


> 2 questions, if you might be able to respond:
> 1. Can a customer opt out of the pre-roll ads, as the TiVo customer service reps. have been saying and processing the past couple of days?
> 2. Is pre-roll also coming to TE3?
> 3. You may have noticed, the pre-roll transitioning can seem a bit rough--will that be smoothed out?


Yes, our customer support organization does have the ability to opt a customer out of this functionality. I believe there are a number of criteria that go into determining whether a customer is eligible for this (tenure, service plan, etc.). I don't think it's as easy as just calling us up and asking to be opted out.

TE3 was put into maintenance mode almost 2 years ago.

Yes, we are working to improve the performance of the pre-roll ads so they are hardly noticeable.

I will share my personal experience here. For the past 20+ years that I've been a TiVo customer myself, the first thing I do after hitting Play on a show is either FF over the lead-in advertising or SKIP over it on skip-enabled programs. These new pre-roll ads are really no different than that. Press Play, press SKIP. I thought it was going to be more disruptive, but have found it to be a non-issue.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Charles R said:


> I would humbly suggest this thread focus on ad serving and not into "cheerleading" the future direction of TiVo... as it (again) appears to not respect your customers or their concerns.


Are you suggesting my post sounded like cheerleading?


----------



## El Maestro

Look, I'm nobody here, and I think the idea is as lame as you all do, but can we not abuse Ted? Very few companies would have an individual at his level interface directly with users like this.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Skye said:


> Any chance that these can be blocked by our routers by figuring out the IP address of the server feeding the ads?


I would certainly expect they will be served by a CDN, so the exact IP address(es) may/can/will vary over time (so blocking directly by IP is not likely to be entirely viable). We still have no report as to whether there is a unique DNS name that is being used that could be blocked via dnsbl technology (of course as more vendors implement DoH/DoT that may end up not being viable either).


----------



## tivoknucklehead

just read the pre-rolls on Hydra are PERMANENT, can't opt out and coming to older models too later

TiVo says all retail DVR owners will see ads before recorded shows

Tivo, its been a nice run, but I'm done


----------



## Charles R

TiVo_Ted said:


> Are you suggesting my post sounded like cheerleading?


Similar to inserting an ad before the actual issue...  Note anything I post isn't referencing you rather TiVo which I presume you represent. I guess with untold questions not being addressed I found it disingenuous to go off topic.



TiVo_Ted said:


> This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


----------



## mntvjunkie

TiVo_Ted said:


> Yes, our customer support organization does have the ability to opt a customer out of this functionality. I believe there are a number of criteria that go into determining whether a customer is eligible for this (tenure, service plan, etc.). I don't think it's as easy as just calling us up and asking to be opted out.
> 
> TE3 was put into maintenance mode almost 2 years ago.
> 
> Yes, we are working to improve the performance of the pre-roll ads so they are hardly noticeable.
> 
> I will share my personal experience here. For the past 20+ years that I've been a TiVo customer myself, the first thing I do after hitting Play on a show is either FF over the lead-in advertising or SKIP over it on skip-enabled programs. These new pre-roll ads are really no different than that. Press Play, press SKIP. I thought it was going to be more disruptive, but have found it to be a non-issue.


In my 20 years of usage, this is not my experience. Furthermore, anytime Tivo "inserts" itself via a server checkin, it ads a few seconds (in my experience) that I cannot watch my show. For a service that I paid over $1000 for one box, this is simply unacceptable.

But let me ask you a serious question (that you likely will not be able to answer). I was planning to buy an Edge, a new Mini, and Lifetime service for both on day of release. Assuming that would have cost me $1200, how many ads will Tivo need to run for others to make up the lost revenue (because I obviously will no longer consider that purchase if this goes through, even if I do continue to use my Lifetime Tivo until it dies).


----------



## chiguy50

TiVo_Ted said:


> Are you suggesting my post sounded like cheerleading?


I'm not the OP, but I will respond to that (especially since I was the first on this thread to invoke your name in hopes of getting your input).

I just "liked" your last post above, which was clear, concise, and effectively answered the most pressing questions that have been plaguing most of us. I am hopeful that this excellent feedback will assuage a lot of bent feelings about this pre-roll ad topic to date.

However (and for the very first time, I might add), I was disappointed with your previous post and did find it self-serving in tone. I would like to write that off to lingering health issues since IMHO it was very much not the type of communication I have come to expect and appreciate from your valuable presence on this forum.

I hope that you will have a speedy recovery--in spite of the additional heartburn the current topic is bound to cause you.


----------



## zubinh

Thanks Ted. Is it correct to infer that "maintenance mode" means no pre-roll ads? You're just a tad bit cryptic there buddy....


----------



## Joe3

zubinh said:


> Thanks Ted. Is it correct to infer that "maintenance mode" means no pre-roll ads? You're just a tad bit cryptic there buddy....


It's called, *obfuscatin. *_Rovi must have had them take a workshop on it. _


----------



## Mikeguy

tivoknucklehead said:


> just read the pre-rolls on Hydra are PERMANENT, *can't opt out *and coming to older models too later
> 
> TiVo says all retail DVR owners will see ads before recorded shows
> 
> Tivo, its been a nice run, but I'm done


Not what the TiVo customer service reps. are doing and what TiVo_Ted has confirmed here, although opting out is not guaranteed for each customer, but depends on factors.


----------



## chrishicks

So as a hypothetical, if you have a household with 4 people in it and you watch 25 recorded shows a day between them all, Tivo could be feeding in 750 ads a month to said household? Does that sound reasonable to people? How much data/bandwidth would that use? How horrible will this experience be if you're having a bad server day? I have days where my Tivo takes a good minute or more to just open a recordings folder(hey look, it's that blue spinning circle we all love so much) so I can start a show(and then be greeted with another spinning circle after pressing play) when the Tivo server is out to lunch.

My other issue with this whole thing is that sure, ads are skippable for now(with a chance of a DVR reboot according to some) but how long before that changes? If everyone skips the ad how does anyone make any money since that's been the argument for years now. If we skip ads everyone suffers. Isn't that what they say? How long before forced ads become a thing? Also, how long before the ads turn up in other areas? I know I'm in a minority but I have only ever used my Tivos for one single thing and that is to record shows. The streaming on the boxes stink compared to a dedicated streaming box like a Roku so I don't care about any of that. I only want to record shows and watch them when I have time. If I were to start seeing ads everywhere(and the lag that sometimes comes with the Tivo servers) on my Tivo when I want to use it I might as well just go strictly X1 DVR since Tivo is losing more(they already lost on having solid guide data years ago) of what made them a premium product to me. I'm sorry but this is not the Tivo Experience I'm looking for.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Not what the TiVo customer service reps. are doing and what TiVo_Ted has confirmed here, although opting out is not guaranteed for each customer, but depends on factors.


If that's the case, the story needs a correction. They do corrections all the time and I an others will look forward to reposting it with the corrections.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> It's called, *obfuscatin. *_Rovi must have had them take a workshop on it. _


I don't see that as much as tech-speak. As explained in earlier days by TiVo (I believe by @TiVo_Ted) vis-a-vis TE3 and TE4, TE3 gets maintenance work but not new features. I take the present comment as, pre-roll ads are not coming to TE3, as that is not maintenance but a new feature. But perhaps that assumption will be corrected, if wrong.


----------



## jakep_82

I'm a short timer compared to a lot of others, but in the last 5 years I've purchased 3 Tivos including 2 with lifetime. I ordered a Tablo today, and my lifetime Bolt will be on eBay as soon as I have it set up and running. My already canceled Roamio OTA will be be dismantled for the hard drive and recycled. I don't care that it's easy to skip the pre-roll ads, it's a principle thing for me, and I'm not going to waste my time calling customer service begging for the ads to be turned off. I already had one foot out the door in favor of something with better streaming options, and this sealed the deal.


----------



## Mikeguy

chrishicks said:


> So as a hypothetical, if you have a household with 4 people in it and you watch 25 recorded shows a day between them all, Tivo could be feeding in 750 ads a month to said household? Does that sound reasonable to people? *How much data/bandwidth would that use? How horrible will this experience be if you're having a bad server day? *I have days where my Tivo takes a good minute or more to just open a recordings folder(hey look, it's that blue spinning circle we all love so much) so I can start a show(and then be greeted with another spinning circle after pressing play) when the Tivo server is out to lunch.


As a fellow DSL/data-limited user posted earlier, I'd also be interested in the answers there. If your television watching is via TiVo recordings and you watch a fair amount of television, how much of a hit are pre-roll ads going to make on your 150GB/month data limit?


----------



## egeek84

Thank you Ted, going back to Tivo Experience 3! NO ADS BABY!!!!!!
I love TE3 anyways!


----------



## TiVo_Ted

zubinh said:


> Thanks Ted. Is it correct to infer that "maintenance mode" means no pre-roll ads? You're just a tad bit cryptic there buddy....


Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".

Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> If that's the case, the story needs a correction. They do corrections all the time and I am an others will look forward to reposting it with the corrections.


Perhaps the story's author will read the comments here and make any needed amendment.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Perhaps the story's author will read the comments here and make any needed amendment.


Yes, Rovi/TiVo has to call the publisher, first. You know, like some have to call Tivo and beg them stop shoveling ads down our family's throats.


----------



## zubinh

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


Thank you for clarifying Ted. You just got a few thousand people to move to TE3 tonight...lol


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Charles R said:


> Similar to inserting an ad before the actual issue...  Note anything I post isn't referencing you rather TiVo which I presume you represent. I guess with untold questions not being addressed I found it disingenuous to go off topic.


Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


----------



## Joe3

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


Good to hear your back in good health.

A feature for who, Ted?
I am paying for this feature and it's not my feature. Rather, it is Rovi/TiVo's. 
Com'on~


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> TiVo_Ted said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".
> 
> 
> 
> Good to hear your back in good health.
> 
> A feature for who, Ted?
> I am paying for this feature and it's not my feature. Rather, it is Rovi/TiVo's.
> Com'on~
Click to expand...

Do note, the term "feature" was put in quotes.


----------



## Joe3

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


Hate to be the skunk at the "Rovi/TiVo feast", but did you guys ever try listening to the consumers and produce a better product, instead, just saying, you're not the iPhone, plenty of room still for real features that the customers want and is willing to pay for.


----------



## JoeKustra

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


TE3 still can not access another TE3 box if the other box is in Standby. A TE3 Mini can not access its host if that host is in Standby. I know, don't use Standby. But that bug has been around a long time.

BTW, the software release notes have fallen behind except the date, which changes for some unknown reason.

Tivo Customer Support Community


----------



## wbrightfl

All my TIVOS still using TE3. Tried Hydra, hated it and reverted back. I am happy with it and now that Ted confirms no ads to TE3 nothing for me to worry about. 

I do wonder how this will work out if mass numbers of subscribers revert back to TE3 from Hydra to avoid ads. They may find a much lower number of subscribers seeing these ads they are inserting. I hope this doesn't force Hydra on everyone at some point. Just leave my TE3 alone and I am happy until the box dies down the road.


----------



## lparsons21

Joe3 said:


> Hate to be the skunk at the "Rovi/TiVo feast", but did you guys ever try listening to the consumers and produce a better product, instead, just saying, your not the iPhone, plenty of room still for real features that the customers want and is willing to pay for.


Yep, I can think of a few things. If these new ads become onerous then my shift to streaming/OTA will happen sooner rather than later. And my Tivo will be relegated to an OTA DVR for the few channels I can get via antenna and my AppleTV will take over all the other shows I want to watch.

Tivo needs to add current versions of the streaming apps and add some new streaming apps too.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mntvjunkie

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


See, and all of that is COMPLETELY fine with me. I have always had a hard time selling Tivo because of the cost, but if you offered an experience that had ads, at say $10/month, it would be easier to sell to the average consumer.

Where I have a problem is, as someone who paid full price for Tivo, and someone who still would WITHOUT ads (so in this scenario I would expect to pay more) I am being treated the same, and subject to the same ads as someone who benefited from lower up front costs. If I got in my car, but before I could put it in gear I had to listen to a 30 second ad or hit another button, that car would be sold immediately. I currently pay for Netflix, if they started putting ads for Ford or Chevy, or whatever, in front of each episode that I couldn't opt out of by paying a higher fee, I would cancel my subscription and never return.

This whole thing just leaves a sour taste in my mouth about Tivo. Since it's not coming to TE3, I'll likely just roll back to that until this Tivo finally dies rather than buying a new Tivo. I guess the sad part for me is, I was really excited to do that before this announcement, but I guess now comes the excitement of finding a replacement.

At the very least, existing customers should be grandfathered in at the "premium" tier (the one we have now) and new customers can decide to pay less for the ad tier, or upgrade to the "premium" tier.


----------



## Mikeguy

wbrightfl said:


> All my TIVOS still using TE3. Tried Hydra, hated it and reverted back. I am happy with it and now that Ted confirms no ads to TE3 nothing for me to worry about.
> 
> *I do wonder how this will work out if mass numbers of subscribers revert back to TE3 from Hydra to avoid ads. *They may find a much lower number of subscribers seeing these ads they are inserting. I hope this doesn't force Hydra on everyone at some point. Just leave my TE3 alone and I am happy until the box dies down the road.


You know stuff. Will the average consumer (and then want to go through the rollback process, as part of which is the loss of AutoSkip)?


----------



## JoeKustra

wbrightfl said:


> All my TIVOS still using TE3. Tried Hydra, hated it and reverted back. I am happy with it and now that Ted confirms no ads to TE3 nothing for me to worry about.
> I do wonder how this will work out if mass numbers of subscribers revert back to TE3 from Hydra to avoid ads. They may find a much lower number of subscribers seeing these ads they are inserting. I hope this doesn't force Hydra on everyone at some point. Just leave my TE3 alone and I am happy until the box dies down the road.


We are not the "mass numbers". We are just a few dozen enthusiastic users with too much knowledge that we enjoy sharing. It's the TiVo's used by MSOs that never heard of TE4 that are the "masses". My company has a TE4 ad twice an hour now, and it runs on its message channel continuously. They only charge an extra $50 to install it. They use eero and don't list that imaginary Mini "wireless adapter" on their web site. It's a funny world. But I'm not laughing right now.


----------



## the_Skywise

So with ad revenue coming in - is there a plan to lower subscription costs or drop them altogether?
(asking for a friend, literally - I'm on TE3 and have lifetime  )


----------



## SullyND

This “feature” should work like Kindle Ads and only show up on subsidized devices with the option to pay and opt out. The “feature” should not roll out to existing plans.


----------



## humbb

wbrightfl said:


> Just leave my TE3 alone and I am happy until the box dies down the road.


Amen!


----------



## reneg

Glad I stayed on TE3. Makes me wonder if the Edge will be able to revert to TE3. I'm guessing not.


----------



## caseybea

TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status

PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.

If this happens and doesn't get ripped to shreds, I'm gone as a tivo customer. I see lawsuits coming.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

reneg said:


> Glad I stayed on TE3. Makes me wonder if the Edge will be able to revert to TE3. I'm guessing not.


I think someone at CEDIA asked TiVo about this and was indicated it can't be rolled back (or that was their interpretation). Can't recall exactly.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

caseybea said:


> TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status
> 
> PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.
> 
> If this happens and doesn't get ripped to shreds, I'm gone as a tivo customer. I see lawsuits coming.





caseybea said:


> TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status
> 
> PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.
> 
> If this happens and doesn't get ripped to shreds, I'm gone as a tivo customer. I see lawsuits coming.


Ugh.


----------



## schatham

reneg said:


> Glad I stayed on TE3. Makes me wonder if the Edge will be able to revert to TE3. I'm guessing not.


Bolt Vox OTA can't either.


----------



## Noelmel

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


Glad you are back (and in good health) to clear some things up. You already answered most of my questions but I and many others have one more. Will this be coming to Roamio boxes as well? Most people so far seem to have Bolts. Tivo customer service just says "eligible boxes". Thanks for your time!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> You know stuff. Will the average consumer (and then want to go through the rollback process, as part of which is the loss of AutoSkip)?


Never really saw the auto skipping as a big deal. As long as you can skip with a simple button.


----------



## Tony_T

TiVo_Ted said:


> ...
> Yes, we are working to improve the performance of the pre-roll ads so they are hardly noticeable.


Can you comment on the possibility that ads may later be inserted within the show?


----------



## caseybea

So, who's with me to file a class action lawsuit?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

caseybea said:


> So, who's with me to file a class action lawsuit?


On what grounds?


----------



## DeltaOne

TiVo_Ted said:


> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.


"Modernize"? That's an interesting way to use the word modernize.


----------



## Lurker1

techspot.com says, "The company intends to roll out the commercials to users still on TiVo Experience 3 at a later date. So not updating to the latest software is not a way to avoid the ads."

This directly contradicts what Tivo Ted told us.


----------



## ufo4sale

I would do what ever it takes to keep TiVo a float. I'm a TiVoite for life. I've seen the other options and they are scary as hell.


----------



## jfriedlund

With the risk of being shamed - how do you know if you have TE3? I currently have three Premier XL units, all with Lifetime service. So far, I've seen no preroll ads.


----------



## Tony_T

TiVo_Ted said:


> ... but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help *bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.*


As I purchased a lifetime subscription, how will I benefit?


----------



## caseybea

PSU_Sudzi said:


> On what grounds?


Doesn't matter. Won't actually be me, but will be someone else. Just wait.


----------



## DeltaOne

TiVo_Ted said:


> Yes, our customer support organization does have the ability to opt a customer out of this functionality. I believe there are a number of criteria that go into determining whether a customer is eligible for this (tenure, service plan, etc.). I don't think it's as easy as just calling us up and asking to be opted out.


For those of us that purchased our TiVo: why not make the ads an opt-in choice? We either paid for lifetime or are paying monthly. I don't think we deserve ads too.

Also, why not make the opt-out choice a check box on our account page? Easier for us, less load on your telephone support team.


----------



## moyekj

jfriedlund said:


> With the risk of being shamed - how do you know if you have TE3? I currently have three Premier XL units, all with Lifetime service. So far, I've seen no preroll ads.


Premiere are series 4 units. TE4 only runs on series 5 (Roamio) or later, so you're safe (for now) until/if TiVo decides to update TE3 to include this "feature" as well.


----------



## Wigohwt

reneg said:


> Glad I stayed on TE3. Makes me wonder if the Edge will be able to revert to TE3. I'm guessing not.


I would say that's a very safe guess.


----------



## caseybea

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


I would rather deal with higher costs than have advertising *shoved down my throat*. You have NO concept how pissed off I am about this whole thing. Unbelievable. I purchased a tivo so I could watch recorded content, and eliminate ads. Clearly someone at TIVO is ignoring the whole reason we all became tivo customers in the first place.......


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

caseybea said:


> Doesn't matter. Won't actually be me, but will be someone else. Just wait.


They can but will just be a waste even in the small chance it would be won because plaintiffs would receive $1.50 or some such ridiculous amount.


----------



## Joe3

JoeKustra said:


> We are not the "mass numbers". We are just a few dozen enthusiastic users with too much knowledge that we enjoy sharing. It's the TiVo's used by MSOs that never heard of TE4 that are the "masses". My company has a TE4 ad twice an hour now, and it runs on its message channel continuously. They only charge an extra $50 to install it. They use eero and don't list that imaginary Mini "wireless adapter" on their web site. It's a funny world. But I'm not laughing right now.


This comes up often, we are much more than few dozen TiVo owner. We may not be the many stuck with a dying technology. It's obviously a "deadman walking" plan that only further convinces me that Rovi is not in it for the long game and is continually shorting the company.

What a retail tech company does when it's not in the hands of bunch of vultures, is it keep innovation fresh. If it can't sell in retail, they change the product quickly until it does sell.


----------



## mntvjunkie

caseybea said:


> Doesn't matter. Won't actually be me, but will be someone else. Just wait.


Careful. It is a Terms of Service Violation to either file a class action OR participate in one, so if Tivo has a way to find out if you participated, they''ll likely terminate your service (which yes, they can do if you violate the TOS EVEN IF YOU PAID FOR LIFETIME).


----------



## Wigohwt

Joe3 said:


> Never really saw the auto skipping as a big deal. As long as you can skip with a simple button.


If they are really going through the process of bringing these pre-roll ads to TE3, the least they can do is put in autoskip as a small consolation prize. I've seen many posts of others lamenting no more upgrades to TE3 for so long. It's the old be careful what you wish for...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


Glad you're back, and in good/better health.

I would actually like to see that discussion in a new thread. In the void of information, the inmates tend to get restless and punchy around here. Nobody is going to enjoy the ads anymore because of that discussion, but you always offer a great deal of transparency that manages to lower the temperature of the discussion.

I couldn't agree more that Tivo has not evolved well on the consumer side, and my biggest personal sticking point right now is the app platform. I think a number of us are disappointed in the lack of evolution here, so I would love for you to cover this topic as well, if you decide to go ahead with a new thread. I hear a small, new upstart company called Disney is working on one, and I'd rather not have to hit my input button a bunch of times to check it out. 

I don't like this pre-roll idea and plan to have them shut off. However, I'm all for ad-supported free content, premium services, and the like. I think a number of us have been wondering why we never got a proper VOD platform and other stuff. I'm more than happy to be a customer more often than once every three years. Shut up and take my money -- but do it the right way. 

Also, some of us may have heard that reverting to TE3 may not be possible at some point in the near future. *Do not flip that switch while you're deploying the pre-roll ads, guide ads, and other ads that might be just around the corner.* It would be highly unfair to alter our experience so much while simultaneously trapping us. Give us a shut-off date set in the reasonably timed future. Don't keep this a secret that's sprung on us after the fact.


----------



## jfriedlund

moyekj said:


> Premiere are series 4 units. TE4 only runs on series 5 (Roamio) or later, so you're safe (for now) until/if TiVo decides to update TE3 to include this "feature" as well.


Thanks for the lesson!


----------



## Joe3

PSU_Sudzi said:


> They can but will just be a waste even in the small chance it would be won because plaintiffs would receive $1.50 or some such ridiculous amount.


If you're talking about a class action suit you conclusion would not be correct.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Joe3 said:


> If you're talking about a class action suit you conclusion would not be correct.


Ok give me a better conclusion.


----------



## Karmavore

I'm back here for the first time in a long while to share my frustration and disappointment with this development. I find myself taking a long view. I bought my Sony-produced Series 1 in 2001, and it was wonderful. The company and its employees deserved more success than it received. I kept waiting for a TiVo tipping point (and moving into and out of $TIVO at ~$4.50 and $8 or so) that never came. I view this effort to "modernize TiVo’s consumer business model" as a clinching confirmation that their effort to build their business around an improved experience has failed. I wish I could have convinced more people to buy TiVos back when it mattered. I suppose I'll be advocating not going with a TiVo now.

Thankfully, I'm still TE3 on a Roamio. I'll call and see if my 18+ years gets me an opt-out, anyway. I hope the absence of pre-roll lasts.


----------



## Joe3

caseybea said:


> So, who's with me to file a class action lawsuit?


I've been talking about this all weekend and someone keeps trying to shut me up!


----------



## JackMcC

Isn't there a way to limit the bandwidth on some router ports via QoS? Maybe limiting your bandwidth to 500Kbps would cause ads to not show. Downside is the loading of images when viewing what to watch I imagine since guide data is usually done late at night.

Just spitballing here...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## KevTech

caseybea said:


> PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.


Perthaps you missed this post.



TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


Now since the pre roll ads are a feature and TE3 is now in maintenance mode with no further features only bug fixes it seems to me it is safe to say pre roll is not coming to TE3.


----------



## reneg

Lurker1 said:


> techspot.com says, "The company intends to roll out the commercials to users still on TiVo Experience 3 at a later date. So not updating to the latest software is not a way to avoid the ads."
> 
> This directly contradicts what Tivo Ted told us.


Tivo_Ted trumps techspot.com.


----------



## Joe3

mntvjunkie said:


> Careful. It is a Terms of Service Violation to either file a class action OR participate in one, so if Tivo has a way to find out if you participated, they''ll likely terminate your service (which yes, they can do if you violate the TOS EVEN IF YOU PAID FOR LIFETIME).


Rovi troll crawl back to your hole with you're scare tactics.


----------



## powrcow

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Ugh.


FWIW, the Techspot article seems to quote heavily from the LightReading article.


----------



## Joe3

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Ok give me a better conclusion.


There is a patern of behavior over the years by Rovi that can reveal Rovi is a corporate predator and raided TiVo and deceived us of their true intent. There is a clear pattern of behavior. There is no real evidence that Rovi was ever a tech company and there is no evidence since Rovi bought TiVo that TiVo is still a tech company since it lacks any technology advance outside that lipstick on the pig thing they pulled with Hydra, which is a cosmetic graphic design.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Joe3 said:


> There is a patern of behavior over the years by Rovi that can reveal Rovi is a corporate predator and raided TiVo and deceived us of their true intent. There is a clear pattern of behavior. There is no real evidence that Rovi was ever a tech company and there is no evidence since Rovi bought TiVo that TiVo is still a tech company since it lacks any technology advance outside that lipstick on the pig thing they pulled with Hydra, which is a cosmetic graphic design.


I've seen you post that before but I'm not sure that is gonna fly as an argument to win a court case. Really not sure what being a tech company or not has to do with it, TiVo could be a bank holding company making DVRs and it would have no effect on how they design their software.


----------



## JoeKustra

Attributed to Zatz that I saw on DSLReports:

I saw Dave Zatz posted that this weekend on Facebook and Twitter. Also if you try to block the ad servers on your home network, it hangs indefinitely waiting to load a pre-roll add that will never load.


----------



## hairyblue

I was hoping the life time membership would be spared this. I just bought another Tivo with lifetime. I wish I'd had known this before my purchase.


----------



## tarheelblue32

JoeKustra said:


> Some attributed to Zatz that I saw on DSLReports:
> 
> I saw Dave Zatz posted that this weekend on Facebook and Twitter. Also if you try to block the ad servers on your home network, it hangs indefinitely waiting to load a pre-roll add that will never load.


That's very troubling. It seems logical that it would do the exact same thing if the TiVo servers went down.


----------



## Joe3

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I've seen you post that before but I'm not sure that is gonna fly as an argument to win a court case. Really not sure what being a tech company or not has to do with it, TiVo could be a bank holding company making DVRs and it would have no effect on how they design their software.


Well, flagrant misrepresenting their position to TiVo customers. I don't know about the bank on how it would effect how they would design their software, but I am assuming it would as soon as the teller takes a screwdriver to it


----------



## tarheelblue32

KevTech said:


> Perthaps you missed this post.
> 
> Now since the pre roll ads are a feature and TE3 is now in maintenance mode with no further features only bug fixes it seems to me it is safe to say pre roll is not coming to TE3.


Maybe, maybe not. We can't really know that for certain. And what happens if/when TiVo decides to push TE4 upgrades out to all TiVos capable of running it and disables the ability to downgrade to TE3?


----------



## tarheelblue32

If TE3 stays exempt from pre-roll ads, and if TiVo disables the ability to downgrade from TE4 to TE3, I predict the prices of used TiVos still running TE3 on ebay will increase.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Joe3 said:


> Well, flagrant misrepresenting their position to TiVo customers. I don't know about the bank on how it would effect how they would design their software, but I am assuming it would as soon as the teller takes a screwdriver to it


I understand what you're trying to say, just skeptical it has the makings of a good lawsuit. Who knows.


----------



## Mikeguy

caseybea said:


> TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status
> 
> PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.
> 
> If this happens and doesn't get ripped to shreds, I'm gone as a tivo customer. I see lawsuits coming.


"The company intends to roll out the commercials to users still on TiVo Experience 3 at a later date." (Said by the article's author, not directly attributed to TiVo.)

There seems to be a difference of opinion, from what was said by @TiVo_Ted here earlier today . . . .


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> If you look at the video, and the blue spinning circle at the start of the pre-roll ad, and then combine that with reports that skipping past the ad is sluggish (not like regular SkipMode ad skipping), all that indicates to me that TiVo is live-streaming the pre-roll ad.


If they haven't already, someone with TE4 will watch their router's traffic monitor and see. But it sounds like streaming.


----------



## Mikeguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Also, I think some of us have heard that reverting to TE3 may not be possible at some point in the near future. Do not flip that switch while you're deploying the pre-roll ads, guide ads, and other ads that might be just around the corner. It would be highly unfair to alter our experience so much while simultaneously trapping us. *Give us a shut-off date set in the reasonably timed future. *Don't keep this a secret that's sprung on us after the fact.


Personally, I think that 14 years notice would be fair. (But ask me again in 13.)


----------



## schatham

_"Hydra , Hydra, don't be blue,
Rovi Tivo fooled me, too." 
(Sound off, one, two - one, two, three, four &#8230_


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Well, flagrant misrepresenting their position to TiVo customers. I don't know about the bank on how it would effect how they would design their software, but I am assuming it would as soon as the teller takes a screwdriver to it


I'm really trying to credit your views. But I keep on coming up with the wall in the TiVo user's agreement, etc., and for which there has not been a response: "Features and functionality are subject to change. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you." (TiVo User Agreement.)


----------



## Bigg

JoeKustra said:


> Attributed to Zatz that I saw on DSLReports:
> 
> I saw Dave Zatz posted that this weekend on Facebook and Twitter. Also if you try to block the ad servers on your home network, it hangs indefinitely waiting to load a pre-roll add that will never load.


What if you cut it off completely, and only manually update guide data, or only let it update in the off hours when you don't use it? Does this mean that if Comcast (or whoever your ISP is) flakes out you can't watch recordings on your TiVo?


----------



## jlb

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


Thank you for the clarification Ted. Again, given how you must be feeling your participation today is very much appreciated.

I'd like to follow up your response with another question. Do you have any knowledge at this point if TE3 users will be forced to upgrade any time soon?

It's great that maintenance mode means no ads for TE3 but how long will TE3 be kept alive?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NashGuy

jlb said:


> It's great that maintenance mode means no ads for TE3 but how long will TE3 be kept alive?


Yes, this would be my question too. Will TE4-compatible DVRs be forced to upgrade to TE4 at some point in order to continue accessing TiVo service?


----------



## jlb

tarheelblue32 said:


> That's very troubling. It seems logical that it would do the exact same thing if the TiVo servers went down.


I hope that this is not the case

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tenthplanet

slice1900 said:


> You do realize the grid guide has ALWAYS been an option, right? It isn't as though using TE3 means you must use the Live Guide.
> 
> Also, the app uses the same guide format regardless of whether your Tivo is set to use Live Guide or grid guide...


Grid was not a good option with older (smaller Tv's) a big flat screen changes everything. TE3 always felt like the old Tivo SD being dragged kicking and streaming.


----------



## davezatz

Bigg said:


> What if you cut it off completely, and only manually update guide data, or only let it update in the off hours when you don't use it? Does this mean that if Comcast (or whoever your ISP is) flakes out you can't watch recordings on your TiVo?





JoeKustra said:


> Attributed to Zatz that I saw on DSLReports:
> 
> I saw Dave Zatz posted that this weekend on Facebook and Twitter. Also if you try to block the ad servers on your home network, it hangs indefinitely waiting to load a pre-roll add that will never load.


Well. It was one early test with one specific technique. We'll see what happens as the "feature" evolves and under additional scenarios with differing variables. So, yeah, I won't be having mine turned off.


----------



## Rob75

Tony_T said:


> As I purchased a lifetime subscription, how will I benefit?


You will now be better informed of products available to you. Consume Tony_T.


----------



## Tony_T

Rob75 said:


> You will now be better informed of products available to you. Consume Tony_T.


TiVo_Ted said the ads will "*bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time"*
So how do Lifetime subscribes get in on these reduced costs?


----------



## opfreak

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry for the delay in joining the conversation. I came back from CEDIA with a nasty case of food poisoning that ended up with me in the ER on a drip line for dehydration. No fun.
> 
> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads. This is part of a broader initiative to modernize TiVo's consumer business model.
> 
> The ads are served dynamically when playback starts at the beginning of a recording playback. Recordings from certain ad-free networks will not get pre-roll ads and resuming playback on a recording also does not get an ad. Lastly since these are dynamic ads, there are times when ad slots are not purchased in which case ad may not see an ad playback. To ensure the experience remains consistent these ads are skippable using the same buttons you would use for ad-skip (Chan Up, D, SKIP and FF). As part of our commitment to improve the experience, we are measuring each step in the process and will be continually optimizing the ads to reduce latency and improve performance.
> 
> We are also investing to bring more content to TiVo users. Our soon to be launched TiVo+ video service will include dozens of channels of free entertainment. We have assembled an amazing set of partners as part of this service and will be evolving it in the coming months with many more channels, on-demand movies and shows and other exciting specialty content coming as well.


Heres a way to improve the experience:

Don't play ads.

Furthermore, what benefit is their to the Tivo user. I don't care about your free entertainment. Keep your free Tivo+, and give me an ad free experience I paid for.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> I'm really trying to credit your views. But I keep on coming up with the wall in the TiVo user's agreement, etc., and for which there has not been a response: "Features and functionality are subject to change. We reserve the right to determine the timing and content of software updates, which may be automatically downloaded and installed by TiVo products without prior notice to you." (TiVo User Agreement.)


These click e-agreements have been challenged in the Court and are not held to the same standard as a binding contract and for good reason. The click e-agreement can say anything it wants, but you as an individual having certain protections under law, you can not be taken advantage of. The judge has the authority, not a click it e-document to determine if the class action suit has merit. In case, is there a pattern of behavior that shows Rovi misrepresented themselves when they bought TiVo by not revealing they are a predatory company to TiVo customers as Rovi's behavior suggests. The idea that they misrepresented themselves to us is the only explanation that fits as an answer to their questionable behaviors, but makes perfect sense if they are a predatory corporation that raided TiVo for what they could squeeze out its good name. It's clear that TiVo questionable behavior as of late and since Rovi took control strongly suggests they are not acting as tech company, but like a bunch of vultures picking off what's left of the old TiVo bones and doing nothing else, but hiding this behind the TiVo's brand.


----------



## opfreak

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


A feature? still on drugs from the hospital?


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> These click e-agreements have been challenged in the Court and are not held to the same standard as a binding contract and for good reason. The click e-agreement can say anything it wants, but you as an individual having certain protections under law, you can not be taken advantage of. The judge has the authority, not a click it e-document to determine if the class action suit has merit. In case, is there a pattern of behavior that shows Rovi misrepresented themselves when they bought TiVo by not revealing they are a predatory company to TiVo customers as Rovi's behavior suggests. It's clear that TiVo questionable behavior as of late and since Rovi took control strongly suggests they are not acting as tech company, but like a bunch of vultures picking off what's left of the old TiVo bones and doing nothing else, but hiding this behind the TiVo's brand.


Ah, so attacking the user, etc. agreements as a whole. Got it--thanks.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

reneg said:


> Tivo_Ted trumps techspot.com.


At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

JackMcC said:


> Isn't there a way to limit the bandwidth on some router ports via QoS? Maybe limiting your bandwidth to 500Kbps would cause ads to not show. Downside is the loading of images when viewing what to watch I imagine since guide data is usually done late at night.


Depending on the router/switch, there may be options to control bandwidth usage by port or by source/destination, but typically for consumer routers (the netgears, asus', etc.) turning on various QoS features can turn a high performance router into something that runs at substantially reduced speeds due to no longer using the hardware assisted forwarding paths in the SoC, so it is not always a good approach (those running advanced networking have many more options).


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Ah, so attacking the user, etc. agreements as a whole. Got it--thanks.


The only one who seems to be attacking here is you, but it's all Zen.


----------



## slude

TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


If TiVo ever starts to reevaluate those plans, please consider that there is no SKIP button on the remotes that shipped with many, many TE3 machines.


----------



## dswallow

1) Enabling auto-skip when it became available generally leads the playback to auto-skip to the actual show beginning when playback of the recording is started. Will auto-skip automatically skip pre-roll ads in the same way? 

2) I've been a TiVo customer since basically when I joined here. That's since the end of 2001. If I have to call and am able to opt-out of pre-roll ads when they begin on my unit, and they get disabled, I may be reasonable about it and ignore this entire topic once my devices return to normal operation. I would prefer to discover a simple user-controlled way on the box itself or via the web site where I can just go turn it off and ensure it's off and/or ensure it never goes on. Actually I'd really prefer as an existing long-multi-lifetime customer to never have it enabled without my direct request.

3) If there comes a time where I cannot stop pre-roll advertisements, or any other advertisements inserted into the service I have already paid for, I promise I will complain loudly every single time to each and every advertiser, and will do my best to stop patronizing such advertisers until they announce their discontinuance of participation in any ad program that places such ads on my TiVo device. I may even do so for those advertisements I see while awaiting it being turned off if I am forced to actually call and wait to have it turned off.

4) Further, I'll stipulate I will never again say a good thing about TiVo, the company, or its service, and will actively discourage every single person to avoid the company, and the product, and to proactively make the same effort with those friends and family members who I have gotten to move to TiVo to do the same.

5) I simply want to be excruciatingly clear on this point; you can do whatever you want to new subscribers or when creating new terms such as alternative subscription plans/service plans, but I have an existing expectation and agreement and relationship with TiVo that this will violate.

6) I Have nothing against being offered new services or opportunities. I would say I would encourage them if past history with them had ever been positive, but let's say maybe one day TiVo can do something unrelated to its core businesses well and maintain active and responsive support. Go for it. But a core, basic part of your current service is exemplified by what you've recently provided with the auto-skip feature... NO COMMERCIALS ("no" in the sense of not having to see them, being able to avoid them, and certainly not having MORE of them added). So when you actually go the other way and place them in front of my eyes yourself, against my wishes, there will simply be consequences. I do not NEED TiVo. I CHOOSE TiVo. At this time. There are other choices.

7) I'm choosing to, for the moment, ignore the possibility of having ads added to my view of the guide. That's a whole 'nuther can of worms.


----------



## Adam C.

So we have man


opfreak said:


> Heres a way to improve the experience:
> 
> Don't play ads.
> 
> Furthermore, what benefit is their to the Tivo user. I don't care about your free entertainment. Keep your free Tivo+, and give me an ad free experience I paid for.


Yeah really. Tivo+ is a little late to the game, no? How many more of these garbage free streaming services riddled with ads do we really need? Crackle, IMDB TV, Vudu, Pluto...the list goes on and on.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> The only one who seems to be attacking here is you, but it's all Zen.


Sorry, I didn't mean that negatively--I meant that the concept is, to challenge the user agreements, for the reasons you mentioned.


----------



## Rob75

Tony_T said:


> TiVo_Ted said the ads will "*bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time"*
> So how do Lifetime subscribes get in on these reduced costs?


----------



## miller890

TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


Glad to hear TE3 is safe! I have a nice stack of Tivo hardware for the 20 year, but I think I am DONE!


----------



## krkaufman

Charles R said:


> I would humbly suggest this thread focus on ad serving and not into "cheerleading" the future direction of TiVo... as it (again) appears to not respect your customers or their concerns.


Presumptions seem contradictory to humility.


----------



## krkaufman

tivoknucklehead said:


> just read the pre-rolls on Hydra are PERMANENT, can't opt out and coming to older models too later
> 
> TiVo says all retail DVR owners will see ads before recorded shows


Where did you read any of that? I'll give the article another read, but none of that was conveyed, from my reading of it.


----------



## Tony_T

TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


Are there plans to "roll" ads during a show (at Skip.points)?


----------



## Steven Rogers

TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


I am a very rare poster, but just wanted to express my appreciation for you engaging with the community.


----------



## tommage1

Well Tivo Ted says no ads for TE3. Which pretty much makes up my mind about my "testing TE4 Bolt", pretty sure I will revert while I still can. Hey, a TE3 machine could be valuable in the future. I was going to keep TE3 as long as possible on all my Roamios for sure, now with the ad thing I think the Bolt also. You can always "upgrade" to TE4 (without losing recordings to boot) but if it becomes impossible to roll back to TE3 then the TE3 boxes could be valuable in the future, especially to avoid the ads................... Can you see ebay, "Tivo Bolt/Roamio with lifetime AND TE3 with no ads", only $1500? TE3 could be an "investment"  Only about 1450 shows left to transfer from the Bolt (out of 1600+), I THINK I will do some pruning though since a "transfer all" will not work with Tivo online. Am not planning on selling any of MY Tivos (unless I move somewhere they can't be used) but I think having them all on TE3 a good idea, especially for me since I use Tivo to record and watch TV shows, that's pretty much it.


----------



## Davelnlr_

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


Thank you for clarifying. I am on TE3, and have been since they disabled thumbs up/down on suggestions for TE4. This will now be a non-issue for me.


----------



## cwoody222

caseybea said:


> TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status
> 
> PS: The article quotes Tivo indicating TE3 is not excluded.
> 
> If this happens and doesn't get ripped to shreds, I'm gone as a tivo customer. I see lawsuits coming.


No, that article does not QUOTE TiVo on anything related to TE3.


----------



## Davelnlr_

jfriedlund said:


> With the risk of being shamed - how do you know if you have TE3? I currently have three Premier XL units, all with Lifetime service. So far, I've seen no preroll ads.


Under system info, I believe TE3 Software version is 20.7.4.RC2
I am not sure that Premier will even load TE4. It isnt an option on mine.


----------



## tommage1

Davelnlr_ said:


> Hit MENU then APPS. If one of the apps is "Get New Experience" with a TIVO icon, you have TE3.


Hmm, well since they have Premieres they HAVE to be on TE3 correct? Since a Premiere cannot run TE4? So they would not see the "Get New Experience" app since a Premiere cannot run it?

Your advice good for someone checking a Roamio or Bolt though.


----------



## Saturn

NashGuy said:


> Yes, this would be my question too. Will TE4-compatible DVRs be forced to upgrade to TE4 at some point in order to continue accessing TiVo service?


I would be shocked if TiVo didn't force all boxes capable of running it to TE4 at some point in the future.


----------



## WVZR1

I unwrapped mine this evening since TiVo had ignored the support requests and before it would even BOOT to any menu it 'forced' 2 UPDATES - I feared 1 was maybe a LOCK to TE4 until I maybe called support BUT after doing what seemed appropriate for a new box missing a M-Card I was able to use the 'ROLL-BACK' Function which no longer is in the MENU - DO NOT KNOW IF IT EVER WAS! 

50+ minutes later I was @ TE3 Software 20.7.4.RC42-USC-11-849 PLS


----------



## spiderpumpkin

If a TE3 Bolt Vox hardrive fails and I replace it then will it load Hydra? Hopefully if that ever happens I can still roll it back to TE3.


----------



## krkaufman

TiVo_Ted said:


> As you have noticed, we have started to rollout DVR pre-roll ads.


It's curious that you framed the feature as "DVR pre-roll ads."

Will these ads not be delivered to any Mini boxes, regardless of UI? (thx for any insight)


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Tony_T said:


> Are there plans to "roll" ads during a show (at Skip.points)?


Never say never. They'll probably require us to watch their ad in order to skip the others.


----------



## jkovach

NorthAlabama said:


> blue spinning circle:
> 
> *TiVo Abbreviations*​


It really should be called a SBC (spinning blue circle), not a BSC. Has to do with the rules of proper order of adjectives.


----------



## krkaufman

WVZR1 said:


> I was able to use the 'ROLL-BACK' Function which no longer is in the MENU - DO NOT KNOW IF IT EVER WAS!


It wasn't.


----------



## Davelnlr_

tommage1 said:


> Hmm, well since they have Premieres they HAVE to be on TE3 correct? Since a Premiere cannot run TE4? So they would not see the "Get New Experience" app since a Premiere cannot run it?
> 
> Your advice good for someone checking a Roamio or Bolt though.


Yea, I plugged in my Premier to get the software version, and noticed that it wouldnt even work with TE4. I had never paid attention, since it is my backup.


----------



## foghorn2

Ok , its been cleared, its coming weather we like it or not. Its just a key press to get rid of it.
I was not happy with the news here and the stalling of the ad with the BSC was troubling.

But if its seamless and requires another push on the remote to get rid of it, im fine with it.
If pressing a button again will make you leave Tivo, I wish you well.

If you are on TE3, why worry about it ?


----------



## Davelnlr_

spiderpumpkin said:


> If a TE3 Bolt Vox hardrive fails and I replace it then will it load Hydra? Hopefully if that ever happens I can still roll it back to TE3.


Believe the software is in PROM. It should load what was on it when you replaced the drive.


----------



## exdishguy

DeltaOne said:


> "Modernize"? That's an interesting way to use the word modernize.


It was a spelling error. He meant "monetize."


----------



## tommage1

Saturn said:


> I would be shocked if TiVo didn't force all boxes capable of running it to TE4 at some point in the future.


Maybe. However since a Premiere can only run TE3 maybe they will keep TE3 intact for Roamios and Bolts too? All bets off if they "EOL" S2/S3/S4 though.


----------



## krkaufman

JoeKustra said:


> TE3 still can not access another TE3 box if the other box is in Standby. A TE3 Mini can not access it host if that host is in Standby. I know, don't use Standby. But that bug has been around a long time.


Hear, hear. One would hope that maintenance mode would at least clean-up significant bugs like this.


----------



## krkaufman

mntvjunkie said:


> I currently pay for Netflix, if they started putting ads for Ford or Chevy, or whatever, in front of each episode that I couldn't opt out of by paying a higher fee, I would cancel my subscription and never return.


I view this more like Roku and their Roku Channel app. It seems entirely reasonable for Roku to use advertising within their app to generate revenue, but Roku had better not start inserting an ad before each Netflix, Hulu, etc. program I play, or even at the launch of each app.


----------



## TKnight206

TiVo_Ted said:


> Sorry, "Maintenance mode" = "Bug fixes only".
> 
> Pre-roll ads are a "feature".


I still submit suggestions for TE3 through the site on how to improve. Are these ignored, or will they possibly add features in the future?

Some things I'd like to see, to name just a few...
1. An automated way to mark which channels I receive. Starting from channel 1, going up to a user-defined limit, would mark which ones are received and which ones aren't along with HD status. Three to five second delay between channeling up.
Then the user would have five choices in which channels are checked in the Channel List: HD only, SD only, HD Preferred, SD Preferred, and All.
SD Preferred: If there is an HD and SD channel, same timezone, then it would remove the HD channel and list SD. SD takes up less space, and space may matter to some. Or they have it hooked up to an old TV.
2. A way to mark favorite shows or PIN them to the top.
3. A mono setting for audio. Oh how I miss this. My legacy DVR from Comcast had so many audio options.
Anyone here watch South Park with headphones? The music is heavy on the right audio channel and it's immensely annoying.

Anyone, good luck. I imagine customer service is going to have an awful time regarding this pre-roll ad issue.


----------



## exdishguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most of us certainly hope that Tivo continues to develop premium solutions with features that trickle down into lower cost mass market models. And if you need ads to lower the cost of the mass market models, so be it. But I've paid $1k+ on average for each of my 5 Tivo's and honestly I'd pay it again if I could get newer hardware with less bloatware and adverts crap. I'm willing to pay for a premium offering and I suspect almost anybody on this forum that has been a Tivo customer fits this mold. It was what drove the growth of the company in the early days and has become the bane of public company these days as we no longer represent new subscribers and new revenue. So the direction Tivo needs to go in to make yourselves more mass-market appealing makes some sense. I just get disconnected on why there appears to be an abandonment of your higher-end premium customers. Product segmentation is still a valid method of offsetting product development costs, gaining knowledge/loyalty and voice-of-customer from your higher end customer base and then costing it down for the masses - to and including advertising subsidization.

So while I'm happy to hear that TE3 will remain pre-roll free it still irks me that the many higher-end customers that brought you all to the dance are now being treated as though we should "get over it" and shoving this new ad-based approach down our throat. Sorry but you guys aren't a $20 HDMI thumbstick - you sell very very expensive DVRs for a very very premium price. Throwing software intended for the masses on our niche high-end DVRs is outrageous to me. Sorry.


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> I've been talking about this all weekend and someone keeps trying to shut me up!


As if...


----------



## krkaufman

slude said:


> If TiVo ever starts to reevaluate those plans, please consider that there is no SKIP button on the remotes that shipped with many, many TE3 machines.


They all have the Advance button.


----------



## TKnight206

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, at the risk of continuing to go off-topic, let me explain further. TiVo's consumer business model has not evolved much in the 20+ years we've been selling DVR's. I can go into more detail in another thread, but mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time.


I hope I don't regret saying this, but if lifetime subscriptions aren't generating enough revenue, stop offering them. Or increase the price. Or offer a three- or five-year plan (in addition to monthly and annual) for revenue purposes. But please realize why we buy the boxes. My cable provider DVR fees became too expensive. But I also don't like being inudated with ads, whether it's TiVo Central menu ads, Pause ads, Folder ads, Delete ads, or Discovery Bar ads.

Pre-roll ads only make sense when it comes to streaming content. It doesn't make sense whatsoever to add them before something we had recorded. It would be like a bookstore adding ad-based stickers at the beginning of books. Or even worse. (I won't mention the worse idea in a public forum.)

I mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again. Allow us to opt-out of any and all ads. Whether it's the sponsored content in Discovery Bar, Delete ads, Pause ads, etc. TiVo receives revenue for these ads. They have a value. Allow an individual customer to match the value by paying an optional monthly fee to get rid of them.

Edited to add: If you want to bring down the out-of-pocket costs for us consumers, how about letting us pay full cost as normal if we want? A two-tiered approach.


----------



## krkaufman

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I think someone at CEDIA asked TiVo about this and was indicated it can't be rolled back (or that was their interpretation). Can't recall exactly.


@DigitalDawn, IIRC.

edit: Yep, this post: No TE3 for the Edge, and future loss of rollback for BOLTs:



DigitalDawn said:


> PSU_Sudzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?
> 
> 
> 
> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.
Click to expand...


----------



## cwoody222

TKnight206 said:


> I still submit suggestions for TE3 through the site on how to improve. Are these ignored, or will they possibly add features in the future?


They're not adding features to TE3 now or in the future. Full stop.


----------



## shannon94188

dswallow said:


> 1) Enabling auto-skip when it became available generally leads the playback to auto-skip to the actual show beginning when playback of the recording is started. Will auto-skip automatically skip pre-roll ads in the same way?


One user's experience here: I've been getting these ads on my Bolt for the past week, and have auto-skip enabled and it does NOT auto-skip this pre-roll ad. Once I press to skip the ad, the program begins to play and then auto-skip kicks in to get me to the start of my show.

I called Saturday to get removed from these ads, and will report back when they're gone (or later this week nonetheless if they're still present).


----------



## Pbarkey

I haven't received any ads YET. However, my annual subscription is up in October. I'm wondering if they are waiting for me to re-up before zonking me.

Sent from my Google Pixelbook using Tapatalk


----------



## krkaufman

shannon94188 said:


> One user's experience here: I've been getting these ads on my Bolt for the past week, and have auto-skip enabled and it does NOT auto-skip this pre-roll ad. Once I press to skip the ad, the program begins to play and then auto-skip kicks in to get me to the start of my show.


Thanks for posting this feedback.


----------



## krkaufman

Pbarkey said:


> I haven't received any ads YET. However, my annual subscription is up in October. I'm wondering if they are waiting for me to re-up before zonking me.


Dunno. Could be you're not running TE4 on a BOLT, the only scenario, currently, where the ads have been seen.


----------



## randian

When TiVo_Ted says "mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time", what evidence is there for that statement? Is the Edge notably less expensive than the Bolt and Roamio? Did I miss an announcement regarding price reductions for the cost of lifetime or monthly TiVo subscriptions?


----------



## TKnight206

randian said:


> When TiVo_Ted says "mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time", what evidence is there for that statement? Is the Edge notably less expensive than the Bolt and Roamio? Did I miss an announcement regarding price reductions for the cost of lifetime or monthly TiVo subscriptions?


I paid for lifetime on all my boxes. Lifetime means for the life of the box. I don't want ads added to my TE3 Roamio boxes because they don't find the revenue sustainable anymore. If they need to raise the cost of monthly and annual, so be it. Or offer a two-tiered approach where there is a slightly-less expensive one that is more ad-supported. Kind of like the Hulu model.


----------



## humbb

TKnight206 said:


> I paid for lifetime on all my boxes. Lifetime means for the life of the box. I don't want ads added to my TE3 Roamio boxes because they don't find the revenue sustainable anymore. If they need to raise the cost of monthly and annual, so be it. Or offer a two-tiered approach where there is a slightly-less expensive one that is more ad-supported. Kind of like the Hulu model.


Based on info provided by @TiVo_Ted, I can only throw you this:

There will be no pre-roll ads on your TE3 boxes ... ever; and
If you have TE4 boxes now or are later forced to go TE3 -> TE4, you can apply for an exemption from these ads based on subscription plan and/or tenure. My hope is that Lifetimes (perhaps with a minimum number of years) will all qualify.


----------



## randian

TKnight206 said:


> I paid for lifetime on all my boxes. Lifetime means for the life of the box. I don't want ads added to my TE3 Roamio boxes because they don't find the revenue sustainable anymore. If they need to raise the cost of monthly and annual, so be it. Or offer a two-tiered approach where there is a slightly-less expensive one that is more ad-supported. Kind of like the Hulu model.


I don't want ads either. Avoiding them was a big value-add for TiVo. Retail TiVos are where ads make the least sense, because those customers are probably the most sensitive to them and have the most freedom to switch boxes and services. Customers with MSO-branded TiVos presumably care the least about ads and other indecencies heaped upon them by the MSO, otherwise they'd switch. If TiVo's goal is to rid themselves of retail customers this would be an effective way to do it.

A two-tiered approach doesn't exactly scream "bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time", does it?


----------



## TKnight206

humbb said:


> Based on info provided by @TiVo_Ted, I can only throw you this:
> 
> There will be no pre-roll ads on your TE3 boxes ... ever; and
> If you have TE4 boxes now or are later forced to go TE3 -> TE4, you can apply for an exemption from these ads based on subscription plan and/or tenure. My hope is that Lifetimes (perhaps with a minimum number of years) will all qualify.


Lifetime is lifetime. It doesn't matter how many years. They got all the money up front. Under no situation would it be fair to subject lifetime subscribers to pre-roll ads. We can't vote with our wallets and walk away like monthly or annual subscribers can.


----------



## randian

TKnight206 said:


> Lifetime is lifetime. It doesn't matter how many years. They got all the money up front. Under no situation would it be fair to subject lifetime subscribers to pre-roll ads. We can't vote with our wallets and walk away like monthly or annual subscribers can.


We're a captive audience, that makes us perfect ad subjects, just like when you go to a theater to watch a movie and see their stupid ads.


----------



## Mikeguy

WVZR1 said:


> I unwrapped mine this evening since TiVo had ignored the support requests and before it would even BOOT to any menu it 'forced' 2 UPDATES - I feared 1 was maybe a LOCK to TE4 until I maybe called support BUT after doing what seemed appropriate for a new box missing a M-Card I was able to use the 'ROLL-BACK' Function which no longer is in the MENU - DO NOT KNOW IF IT EVER WAS!
> 
> 50+ minutes later I was @ TE3 Software 20.7.4.RC42-USC-11-849 PLS


Simply FYI, the update procedure is standard for the Guided Setup process.


----------



## TKnight206

randian said:


> We're a captive audience, that makes us perfect ad subjects, just like when you go to a theater to watch a movie and see their stupid ads.


Not a fair comparison. Maybe if the movie theater didn't originally have ads, sold subscriptions so you can walk in without paying, then decided to start showing ads, then we can talk.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommage1 said:


> Maybe. *However since a Premiere can only run TE3 maybe they will keep TE3 intact for Roamios and Bolts too? *All bets off if they "EOL" S2/S3/S4 though.


That's a good point--long live the Premiere!


----------



## humbb

Mikeguy said:


> That's a good point--long live the Premiere!


So the Premiere is kinda like the "canary in the coal mine"?


----------



## caseybea

I used to tell everyone I know that cutting the cable cord, getting an antenna and a TIVO was absolutely great. 

I now plan to steer everyone I know AWAY from tivo products due to this disaster of a decision.


----------



## tarheelblue32

humbb said:


> Based on info provided by @TiVo_Ted, I can only throw you this:
> 
> There will be no pre-roll ads on your TE3 boxes ... ever


Actually, that's not what he said. All he said was there are no current plans to bring pre-roll ads to TE3. Those plans could change next year, next month, or tomorrow.


----------



## humbb

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually, that's not what he said. All he said was there are no current plans to bring pre-roll ads to TE3. Those plans could change next year, next month, or tomorrow.


Fair enough. But in order to do that and add a "feature" they would have to take TE3 out of "Maintenance mode", and I don't know if that's ever been done before.

More likely would be a forced update to TE4?


----------



## slice1900

JoeKustra said:


> Attributed to Zatz that I saw on DSLReports:
> 
> I saw Dave Zatz posted that this weekend on Facebook and Twitter. Also if you try to block the ad servers on your home network, it hangs indefinitely waiting to load a pre-roll add that will never load.


That would be a pretty stupid design. If your internet goes down you can't watch anything!


----------



## TKnight206

humbb said:


> Fair enough. But in order to do that and add a "feature" they would have to take TE3 out of "Maintenance mode", and I don't know if that's ever been done before.
> 
> More likely would be a forced update to TE4?


A forced "update" to TE4 won't go over well. How many people were panicking before over whether or not Hydra would be optional?

Edited to fix grammar/typo.


----------



## foghorn2

Ironic all the ads we see here on this site, some right alongside these words while we complain about ads.


----------



## SullyND

foghorn2 said:


> Ironic all the ads we see here on this site, some right alongside these words while we complain about ads.


I see no ads.


----------



## reneg

humbb said:


> Fair enough. But in order to do that and add a "feature" they would have to take TE3 out of "Maintenance mode", and I don't know if that's ever been done before.
> 
> More likely would be a forced update to TE4?


I would claim that Tivo took the Tivo HD out of maintenance mode when adding H264 support to the Tivo HD for USA when Comcast changed how they transmit programs. It helped that Tivo already had H264 support for the Tivo HD in Australia, otherwise we probably would not have gotten the feature.

Having spent my career in software/firmware engineering, here's the conditions that we would update a product that is in maintenance mode:

Widespread issue that would render a major portion of your user base inoperable (Like H264 on Tivo HD)
A security issue which allows your product to be compromised
A data integrity issue which compromises user data from data loss and/or data corruption


----------



## opfreak

foghorn2 said:


> Ironic all the ads we see here on this site, some right alongside these words while we complain about ads.


Did you pay a lifetime fee to this site? Or 15 bucks a month?

This move is a money grab by Tivo, one where they piss on a bunch of customers and they have the balls to tell us its raining, and its good for us.


----------



## opfreak

reneg said:


> I would claim that Tivo took the Tivo HD out of maintenance mode when adding H264 support to the Tivo HD for USA when Comcast changed how they transmit programs. It helped that Tivo already had H264 support for the Tivo HD in Australia, otherwise we probably would not have gotten the feature.
> 
> Having spent my career in software/firmware engineering, here's the conditions that we would update a product that is in maintenance mode:
> 
> Widespread issue that would render a major portion of your user base inoperable (Like H264 on Tivo HD)
> A security issue which allows your product to be compromised
> A data integrity issue which compromises user data from data loss and/or data corruption


Yes, but now Tivo has bean counters that will create a powerpoint that says adding ads to TE3, will generate 1 million dollars a year, an it will cost XXXXXX less then that do implement.


----------



## schatham

foghorn2 said:


> Ironic all the ads we see here on this site, some right alongside these words while we complain about ads.


Do you pay a fee to be here?

Web sites over did it with ads and people revolted by using ad blockers. Just like Tivo is making a big mistake here.


----------



## TKnight206

schatham said:


> Do you pay a fee to be here?


I'm going to intrude and say that unlike with TiVo, we have a choice here on TCF. We can either pay to get rid of ads, or we can enjoy the site filled with ads.

If the subscription rates aren't sustainable, TiVo should raise the rates. Offer a cheaper subscription plan that involves ads, but not necessarily pre-roll ads. (For those who paid for lifetime subscriptions already, no more ads than before.)


----------



## reneg

opfreak said:


> Yes, but now Tivo has bean counters that will create a powerpoint that says adding ads to TE3, will generate 1 million dollars a year, an it will cost XXXXXX less then that do implement.


As Tivo_Ted has stated here, Tivo has no plans to add this feature to TE3 at this time. The decision has been made by Tivo. The business case does not support it. Of course they could change their minds, but right now, Tivo believes they can make more money applying their limited dollars & resources to other projects which will hopefully make a greater return on investment.


----------



## krkaufman

randian said:


> When TiVo_Ted says "mechanisms like targeted advertising, content delivery and premium services are all going to be needed in order for us to help bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time", what evidence is there for that statement? Is the Edge notably less expensive than the Bolt and Roamio? Did I miss an announcement regarding price reductions for the cost of lifetime or monthly TiVo subscriptions?


Dunno, but you seem to be ignoring "over time."


----------



## krkaufman

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually, that's not what he said. All he said was there are no current plans to bring pre-roll ads to TE3. Those plans could change next year, next month, or tomorrow.


It was implied by Ted's statement that TE3 is in maintenance mode (bug fixes only), and that the ads were a "feature." But I still wouldn't say ever.


----------



## krkaufman

foghorn2 said:


> Ironic all the ads we see here on this site, some right alongside these words while we complain about ads.


Eh, not all that ironic, since the situations aren't the same.

I've had ads from the beginning, and accept them as the cost of free access to the site, knowing that I could eliminate the ads via a paid subscription. Seems like most everyone would be groovy were TiVo doing the same.


----------



## krkaufman

reneg said:


> Widespread issue that would render a major portion of your user base inoperable


This would seem to apply to TE3 and the pre-roll ads, if viewed from TiVo's perspective.


----------



## krkaufman

opfreak said:


> This move is a money grab by Tivo, one where they piss on a bunch of customers and they have the balls to tell us its raining, and its good for us.


Yes it's a money grab, and seemingly a necessary one. If it keeps TiVo afloat longer, then it will have been worthwhile.


----------



## hawk521

The pure irony of implementing "AUTO SKIP" just months before implementing "FORCED PRE-ROLL ADS" leaves me with the impression that Tivo has no clear concept of where their success lies in the marketplace. I came to Tivo after having my ReplayTV (with lifetime service) killed off in the early 2000s (the switch to all digital cable killed it) and then recently my Moxi (with lifetime service) was killed by Arris (and/or the folks Arris sold Moxi to) when they arbitrarily decided that the lifetime channel guide interval for all owners had simply expired. 

Tivo was known me as a promising, stable alternative for many years and I didn't hesitate to buy a Tivo Bolt Vox and contract for the lifetime service. 

I was inspired by Tivo's daring implementation of the "AUTO SKIP" feature in the face of potential legal challenges. But now with the new "PRE-ROLL ADS" being forced on Tivo owners - especially those of us with lifetime subscriptions - doesn't this put Tivo on much shakier ground from a legal standpoint? Stripping out commercials from content and then essentially replacing it with a different ad scheme of your own sounds a bit iffy to me. Sure could make the legal arguments tougher in court.

FWIW, I have no issue at all with Tivo offering the "PRE-ADS" with a discounted service plan. But to retroactively invoke these unwanted ads on Tivo owners who contracted lifetime services prior to this "feature" is morally and probably legally wrong.


----------



## TKnight206

krkaufman said:


> Yes it's a money grab, and seemingly a necessary one. If it keeps TiVo afloat longer, then it will have been worthwhile.


Assuming it's necessary, wouldn't it make more sense to just raise the monthly and annual rates instead?


----------



## aaronwt

TKnight206 said:


> Assuming it's necessary, wouldn't it make more sense to just raise the monthly and annual rates instead?


They are already way too high.

I had not been seeing any pre-roll ads from my TiVo Minis. So I checked my Bolts and Roamio directly. I didn't see any ads on them yet either.


----------



## krkaufman

TKnight206 said:


> Assuming it's necessary, wouldn't it make more sense to just raise the monthly and annual rates instead?


No, not really. If the economic principle to price-setting is "whatever the market will bear," then I expect that they've already set service rates at the highest they think (and hopefully have studied) they can get away with.


----------



## krkaufman

So maybe this is just a New Coke situation. The widespread pre-roll ads are loathed, but we’ll rejoice when they’re pulled and only applicable to TiVo+ content.


----------



## slude

krkaufman said:


> They all have the Advance button.


Fast forwarding through pushed commercials in multiple, but larger, time increments is a world of difference from one-press skipping the entire commercial.


----------



## Megamind

slice1900 said:


> That would be a pretty stupid design. If your internet goes down you can't watch anything!


In all the noise about this change, this is one of the things I've been curious about. Has anybody with the ads confirmed the inability to play content with the internet is down or disconnected?


----------



## tivoknucklehead

after reading 37 pages of extreme anger I will now predict tivo will back off of this nonsense, Just like Coke backed off "New coke "


----------



## slude

TKnight206 said:


> I paid for lifetime on all my boxes. Lifetime means for the life of the box. I don't want ads added to my TE3 Roamio boxes because they don't find the revenue sustainable anymore.


Just a few years ago TiVo defined "lifetime" as something shorter than the life of the box IMPORTANT NOTICE: Your TiVo Series1 DVR will stop recording shows after September 29


----------



## zubinh

opfreak said:


> A feature? still on drugs from the hospital?


Come on man, Ted comes here to give us some insight into whats going on at TiVo and you insult the man after he falls ill? Not good and I suggest you apologize.


----------



## Adam C.

Maybe I missed it, but is anyone able to confirm that their ads were turned off after they called into Tivo? We're past the 72-hour window at this point for some users.


----------



## randian

krkaufman said:


> Dunno, but you seem to be ignoring "over time."


It not now then when? If they're earning ad revenue today, why aren't prices going down today? I don't see what would be different next year.


----------



## Joe3

tivoknucklehead said:


> after reading 37 pages of extreme anger I will now predict tivo will back off of this nonsense, Just like Coke backed off "New coke "


That's in a democracy. Since Rovi, TiVo has been no democracy.

Technology is a democratic tool freeing people from mundane tasks and giving them more freedom to do what they want. People will pay a good price for the freedom technology provides even if they have to pay a ridiculous high price for it like a phone if they get some freedom from its use. Remember at the beginning, all the debates about rich and poor alike being in equal participation and access new technology because we are a free nation and technology gives us more freedoms?

Since Rovi, TiVo has not practiced a Steve Jobs like technology. I believe TiVo is being held hostage by someone who is insane and he/she will not take their thumb off our backs. I believe most people at TiVo may believe this use of ad dumping is a bad idea. But there is someone holding too much power and ego and is obviously paid too much to ever admit a mistake.


----------



## tarheelblue32

humbb said:


> Fair enough. But in order to do that and add a "feature" they would have to take TE3 out of "Maintenance mode", and I don't know if that's ever been done before.
> 
> More likely would be a forced update to TE4?


They did it for the Series 3s when they added h.264 support.


----------



## cwoody222

What’s the going CPM rate nowadays for preroll?

Did TiVo hire an army of sales reps to sell directly to advertisers in various markets?

Or are they just leveraging a back-fill ad network? (Substantially less revenue there)

how much revenue do we actually think this will bring in? They have less than 1M retail customers as of now. (Not all of which are eligible for ads)

if they’re using an ad network I can’t see them making a ton of money.

If they hired sales staff, that’s a large cost and investment that they’d need to ensure they cover with generated sales.

Is there anything in their recent investor reports to give an idea of their anticipated revenue?


----------



## Adam C.

randian said:


> It not now then when? If they're earning ad revenue today, why aren't prices going down today? I don't see what would be different next year.


Additional ad revenue is not going to reduce prices. This is not a zero sum game we're playing. When you're a publicly traded company there is constant pressure by shareholders to increase profits each year. So you can either raise monthly subscriber fees each year or you can introduce things like advertisements.


----------



## BobCamp1

TKnight206 said:


> Lifetime is lifetime. It doesn't matter how many years. They got all the money up front. Under no situation would it be fair to subject lifetime subscribers to pre-roll ads. We can't vote with our wallets and walk away like monthly or annual subscribers can.


It's not lifetime, it's all-in. As in, "Tivo is awesome and can do no wrong." As per the agreement. It's perfectly fair to subject all-in customers to it, since they paid to get all of the "experience." Also, you bought all-in service because it was the cheapest plan. So technically you're already on the cheapest plan, and those plans are the ones most subject to ads.

And if you thought, "Tivo would never do something like insert pre-roll video ads," even though they have inserted ads on the home screen since day one and figured out how to put ads on the _pause bar_ of all places, then that also should influence your next purchase and whether you should pay for all-in service or not.

Besides, we've known for a while that the retail customers are pretty much beta testers for their more prized MSO customers. So if you're all-in in being a guinea pig, that's great. If not, that should influence your next decision about all-in service.

Finally, almost everybody in this forum has been a customer long enough and is eligible to opt out. So quit whining about it and do it already! Your empty threats of leaving Tivo for good ("and this time I mean it") and class-action lawsuits are falling on deaf ears because it's not going to happen. Downgrading to TE3 *will* happen because some people are paranoid. But maybe you can try opting out *before* the ads come to your Tivos; like a horrible virus infecting your DVR that posts your playlist on the Internet for everyone to see, sends an electrical surge frying all the components in your entertainment center, then finally bursts into flames.

Tell Tivo you've changed your mind and you now want out of the all-in experience. Even though you gave up all your leverage by going all-in in the first place. But please remember this the next time you buy your next Tivo's service plan.


----------



## CloudAtlas

randian said:


> It not now then when? If they're earning ad revenue today, why aren't prices going down today? I don't see what would be different next year.


When TiVO splits into two companies in 2020 the Patents Inc side will no longer contribute to TiVO Inc. bottom line. Something has to replace this revenue stream! TiVO is adding a profitable recurring revenue stream so lowering prices would just offset this. That obviously makes zero business sense.

TiVO is just copying the current business model of Roku a company that was written off only a few years ago. Roku when faced with competition from Amazon, Apple, and Google changed its business model from hardware sales to ads+Video rental platform. TiVo's competition is just as daunting in Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon.

You don't have to like it but at least understand the reasoning.


----------



## krkaufman

slude said:


> Fast forwarding through pushed commercials in multiple, but larger, time increments is a world of difference from one-press skipping the entire commercial.


I don't have the pre-roll ads, so I can't test it, nor has anyone explicitly reported the behavior, but my inference was that a single press of any of the listed buttons would have the same effect on the pre-roll ad.


----------



## OrangeCrush

krkaufman said:


> I've had ads from the beginning, and accept them as the cost of free access to the site, knowing that I could eliminate the ads via a paid subscription. Seems like most everyone would be groovy were TiVo doing the same.


Agreed. I'm selling off my existing TiVo equipment, but I had made that decision before I knew about the pre-roll ads (lots of reasons). I could buy back in to the TiVo ecosystem if they fix the issues I am tired of waiting for and at a sane price point.

I have Hulu (with ads) bundled with a Spotify subscription, and I'm totally fine with that. I'm getting a much lower rate by accepting the ads and that is my *choice. *If TiVo wants to subsidize the cost of their devices with extra advertising before recordings, in the guide, on the home screen, whatever, fine. But that needs to be limited to devices and service plans that reflect that in the pricing. I'd pay Roku money for that--$50 sticks, $100 boxes--maybe $200 if the tuner and hard drive are included--and no ongoing service fees. Buying back in with new TiVo hardware & lifetime service right now would cost around $1,000 and I absolutely will not accept additional advertising for those prices.


----------



## snerd

JoeKustra said:


> TE3 still can not access another TE3 box if the other box is in Standby. A TE3 Mini can not access its host if that host is in Standby. I know, don't use Standby. But that bug has been around a long time.


I use TE3 exclusively. I have a 2-tuner Premiere and a 4-tuner Bolt that are currently in standby. I can access both of them from my Roamio, my 6-tuner Bolt and a Mini. Although it shouldn't matter, all my devices share a MoCA network.


----------



## djones18

*Pre-Roll Ads Opt-Out Update: *Opted-out last Sunday with Case Number. Still getting Pre-Roll ads. Auto-skip has no effect. Must manually skip. If TiVo Ted is correct ads should go away by Thurs-Fri. I should meet TiVo Ted's opt-out criteria for tenure, etc., though his statement leaves the possibility TiVo can arbitrarily deny owners opt-out request. I'll keep you posted.

With due respect to TiVo Ted who I greatly admire and thank for being here, I don't share his view that pre-roll ads are fine on his TiVos. I'm not okay with them on mine. I was confused when they began because TiVo didn't provide pre-notice to customers nor were we told how to skip them or how to opt-out. I find it ironic that on TiVo's main website today (Tivo.com) in big bold print at the bottom it states "_Dreams come true. No more commercials_." They ought to add "_except when watching recorded programs_".


----------



## KevTech

One of the issues I am concerned about is people who are on data caps.
How much data is it taking to load these ads?
If you go over the cap you have to pay penalties or extra money per so many gigabytes you go over.
Comcast has unlimited data for an extra 50 dollars a month but why should people have to pay another 50 a month just to use a Tivo.


----------



## Tony_T

djones18 said:


> I find it ironic that on TiVo's main website today (Tivo.com) in big bold print at the bottom it states "_Dreams come true. No more commercials_." *They ought to add "except when watching recorded programs"*.


Or..._ "except commercials that TiVo gets paid for"_


----------



## JoeKustra

snerd said:


> I use TE3 exclusively. I have a 2-tuner Premiere and a 4-tuner Bolt that are currently in standby. I can access both of them from my Roamio, my 6-tuner Bolt and a Mini. Although it shouldn't matter, all my devices share a MoCA network.


Perhaps it's just an Ethernet issue.

From Ted: 20.7.4.rc42


----------



## TostitoBandito

krkaufman said:


> I don't have the pre-roll ads, so I can't test it, nor has anyone explicitly reported the behavior, but my inference was that a single press of any of the listed buttons would have the same effect on the pre-roll ad.


This isn't quite correct. In addition to the several seconds of latency from when you play a recording to when the pre-roll ad begins, if I press any of those buttons it just goes to black screen for 20-30 seconds and the Tivo is totally unresponsive until I eventually get a "recording can't be played" error message and it goes back to live TV. While testing this I also saw the same recording can't be played error occasionally when just hopping from one currently playing recording to another. Probably because it can't get the ad to insert for whatever reason.


----------



## Charles R

TostitoBandito said:


> In addition to the several seconds of latency from when you play a recording to when the pre-roll ad begins, if I press any of those buttons it just goes to black screen for 20-30 seconds and the Tivo is totally unresponsive until I eventually get a "recording can't be played" error message and it goes back to live TV.


I guess this is why "TiVo" stated here they are continuing to work on the experience... it would appear very little coding has addressed error conditions which from experience would involve many more lines (of code) than the everything goes as desired path.


----------



## snerd

JoeKustra said:


> Perhaps it's just an Ethernet issue.
> 
> From Ted: 20.7.4.rc42


Maybe. I'm not using max power saving, I just manually put the boxes into standby. Maybe worth an experiment?

Edit: have you tried it recently? Maybe they've fixed it...


----------



## compuguy

shannon94188 said:


> One user's experience here: I've been getting these ads on my Bolt for the past week, and have auto-skip enabled and it does NOT auto-skip this pre-roll ad. Once I press to skip the ad, the program begins to play and then auto-skip kicks in to get me to the start of my show.
> 
> I called Saturday to get removed from these ads, and will report back when they're gone (or later this week nonetheless if they're still present).


Let us know how that goes. I'm considering doing the same thing. Otherwise I'm seriously considering downgrading to TE3 (even though I like features like auto commercial skip in TE4).


----------



## Jed1

cwoody222 said:


> What's the going CPM rate nowadays for preroll?
> 
> Did TiVo hire an army of sales reps to sell directly to advertisers in various markets?
> 
> Or are they just leveraging a back-fill ad network? (Substantially less revenue there)
> 
> how much revenue do we actually think this will bring in? *They have less than 1M retail customers as of now.* (Not all of which are eligible for ads)
> 
> if they're using an ad network I can't see them making a ton of money.
> 
> If they hired sales staff, that's a large cost and investment that they'd need to ensure they cover with generated sales.
> 
> Is there anything in their recent investor reports to give an idea of their anticipated revenue?


This needs to be corrected as it is not 1 million retail customers but 1 million retail devices connecting to the service, which includes minis. Most retail owners have multiple retail devices so the actual number of retail owners is around 200,000 or less. I think the actual number of retail devices is around 960,000.
On the MSO side they count households so the actual number of devices is a lot higher. The last count I heard for MSO is like 6 million households and that number is from a few years ago. The number of MSO customers is growing and the number of retail customers is dropping so there really is no money in retail.

Since Rovi was Gemstar TVGuide they used to have ads on their TVGOS guides that were embedded in retail guides. There was a add pane on the left side of the guide. The cost of TVGOS (TVGuide on Screen) was included in the cost of the retail devices, and they then decided to add the ads in later to increase revenue to cover the cost of operating the consumer guide side of the business. The MSO side had the IGuide and PassPort Echo UI and they had the small ads in those guides.
Now Rovi bought TiVo so they are now doing the same with the retail side of the business. Hopefully they do not do what they did to us TVGOS users and give a 6 months notice that the service was ending and pull the plug. There was users that were threatening law suits back then but nobody ever done anything about it as the cost was to high to hire lawyers and litigate the case. There was a few that took their Sony DHG dvrs and through them in the lobby of their headquarters so Rovi would have to recycle them. Some users like me wrote corporate letters pleading our case to keep it going but that was no help either. It just ended up as a cost cutting measure to please the shareholders at the end of the day.


----------



## smark

KevTech said:


> One of the issues I am concerned about is people who are on data caps.
> How much data is it taking to load these ads?
> If you go over the cap you have to pay penalties or extra money per so many gigabytes you go over.
> Comcast has unlimited data for an extra 50 dollars a month but why should people have to pay another 50 a month just to use a Tivo.


Well, luckily you can now get Unlimited Data for $25 a month (xFi Gateway + Unlimited data) if you have a Blast Pro speed tier or higher.


----------



## calitivo

calitivo said:


> Just called support to return my new Bolt. They told me they have a way to prevent ads from showing on my box forever and it will take 72 hours to implement it. Got a case number.


Success! 72 hours later I tried and was still getting pre-roll ads on my Bolt (but not on the mini). Called support with my existing case number. They had me unplug and replug and then force an update. The update took a long time to load (probably 10-15 minutes), but once done, I am no longer seeing ads (or blue ring). Program loads immediately without delay. Running 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849.


----------



## WVZR1

smark said:


> Well, luckily you can now get Unlimited Data for $25 a month (xFi Gateway + Unlimited data) if you have a Blast Pro speed tier or higher.


But that requires more $$$ I'd think for the Xfinity required hardware!!

I believe it's certainly a BIG 'WAIT SEE'


----------



## Wigohwt

Has TiVo been monitoring their Twitter? No matter what they tweet, it's flooded with disapproval of disgruntled customers about pre-roll ads. No "TE4+" for me.


----------



## mrwest

Regarding TiVo being a publicly-traded company, yes, constant quarterly pressure by shareholders to increase the profits each quarter.
1) A publicly-traded company, can either sell more hardware and grow TiVo the subscribers base. Which has NOT been happening for many years.
2) Raise the monthly subscriber fees, to $20 a month this year, then $25 a month next year.
3) Introduce these TiVo advertisements, before our recorded TV programs. Which is so backwards and defeats the whole reason to purchase the TiVo solutions.

The other fourth option, 4) take TiVo private. With the TiVo with lifetime subscription not providing enough margin. Just as Dell Computer did back in Oct. 29, 2013 because of razor thin PC margins.
Can a hedge fund or group of TiVo founders raise the cash and take the company private? Otherwise, it is going to be livid customers, viewing ads. While TiVo declines rapidly becoming a worthless penny stock, publicly traded company.


----------



## Mikeguy

calitivo said:


> Success! 72 hours later I tried and was still getting pre-roll ads on my Bolt (but not on the mini). Called support with my existing case number. They had me unplug and replug and then force an update. The update took a long time to load (probably 10-15 minutes), but once done, I am no longer seeing ads (or blue ring). Program loads immediately without delay. Running 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849.


:clapping::clapping::clapping: And thanks for the optimistic update.


----------



## Mikeguy

mrwest said:


> Regarding TiVo being a publicly-traded company, yes, constant quarterly pressure by shareholders to increase the profits each quarter.
> 1) A publicly-traded company, can either sell more hardware and grow TiVo the subscribers base. Which has NOT been happening for many years.
> *2) Raise the monthly subscriber fees, to $20 a month this year, then $25 a month next year.*
> 3) Introduce these TiVo advertisements, before our recorded TV programs. Which is so backwards and defeats the whole reason to purchase the TiVo solutions.
> 
> The other fourth option, 4) take TiVo private. With the TiVo with lifetime subscription not providing enough margin. Just as Dell Computer did back in Oct. 29, 2013 because of razor thin PC margins.
> Can a hedge fund or group of TiVo founders raise the cash and take the company private? Otherwise, it is going to be livid customers, viewing ads. While TiVo declines rapidly becoming a worthless penny stock, publicly traded company.


TiVo does that, and people leave. $240-$300 per year, where Netfix is half that_ and provides actual content_?


----------



## krkaufman

JoeKustra said:


> From Ted: 20.7.4.rc42


May 2018. That's puttin' the ain't in maintenance.


----------



## Jed1

According to TiVoTed these are things needed to keep out of pocket cost down going forward as the consumer side has not changed much in the past 20 years:
TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording
If to many of us retail owners either opt out of these ads or roll back to TE3 then there will be consequences for all retail owners going forward.


----------



## krkaufman

krkaufman said:


> I don't have the pre-roll ads, so I can't test it, nor has anyone explicitly reported the behavior, but my inference was that a single press of any of the listed buttons would have the same effect on the pre-roll ad.





TostitoBandito said:


> This isn't quite correct. In addition to the several seconds of latency from when you play a recording to when the pre-roll ad begins, if I press any of those buttons it just goes to black screen for 20-30 seconds and ...


Then it was entirely correct for the context; that is, all the buttons produce the same behavior, so the SKIP button isn't required on the TiVo remote.

That the ads are a user experience fustercluck is another matter.


----------



## Joe3

Adam C. said:


> Additional ad revenue is not going to reduce prices. This is not a zero sum game we're playing. When you're a publicly traded company there is constant pressure by shareholders to increase profits each year. So you can either raise monthly subscriber fees each year or you can introduce things like advertisements.


Or you could make a product people will want to buy, like any other tech company.


----------



## Adam C.

calitivo said:


> Success! 72 hours later I tried and was still getting pre-roll ads on my Bolt (but not on the mini). Called support with my existing case number. They had me unplug and replug and then force an update. The update took a long time to load (probably 10-15 minutes), but once done, I am no longer seeing ads (or blue ring). Program loads immediately without delay. Running 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849.


So it sounds like they may have downgraded you to a prior version of the software that does not support ads. My question is what is going to happen when they release the next software update to everyone. Is that going to start the cycle with the ads all over again?


----------



## calitivo

Some initial thoughts after getting rid of the pre-roll. My initial Hydra experience was only last month after using Tivo's since 2002. It took me a little while to get used to it, but I was generally fine with the experience. In fact, my original mini seemed more responsive on the new UI. I did not realize I was seeing pre-rolls on the Bolt for the past couple of weeks. Just assumed mass advertising from some sponsors. "If you see something, say something", "DignityHealth" and local Subaru dealer. Around the same time, I started seeing the blue circle MUCH more frequently. I don't think I saw it at all the first few weeks. Now that my box has been reverted to its original condition, my opinion is that there is a noticeable difference in speed/response. I was immediately struck by how quickly programs loaded compared to most recent use. YMMV based on your personal UI experience.


----------



## KevTech

Adam C. said:


> So it sounds like they may have downgraded you to a prior version of the software that does not support ads. My question is what is going to happen when they release the next software update to everyone. Is that going to start the cycle with the ads all over again?


21.9.2.v4 is the latest TE4 software that I know of.


----------



## moyekj

Adam C. said:


> So it sounds like they may have downgraded you to a prior version of the software that does not support ads. My question is what is going to happen when they release the next software update to everyone. Is that going to start the cycle with the ads all over again?


No, it's a server side setting associated with each TiVo in your account, not tied to specific software version. TiVo has a bunch of such settings completely under their control now, including for example ability to toggle on/off commercial skip capability. That's why it requires you to call in and provide your TiVo TSN # to get it changed. If they really wanted to they could add a toggle once you login to their web page, but obviously for this particular setting they don't want to make it that easy to disable.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

It occurs to me that this experience may be a bit different on the forthcoming TiVo app for Fire/Roku/Android. I was just getting comfortable with the idea of staying with TE3 on my Roamio Pro and v2 Minis, and giving up my buzzing low-quality Bolt in case it forces TE4. I'd probably repair and sell that one, and upgrade the HD in the Roamio.

But the TiVo app would be a good solution for one room here, and I assume it has only one UI in the form of some version of TE4. So, I'd have to opt-out with the help of customer service and see what happens. (On the topic of TiVo apps, seems to me it would be a good idea to have the pre-rolls pulled directly from the servers rather than through the local TiVo box, as that may reduce the likelihood of seeing the BSC. But what do I know. And I won't be watching the ads to test that if I can help it.)

Next to the TiVo app I will also be experimenting with HD HomeRun and Channels apps among others. But TiVo remains the easiest solution.


----------



## tommage1

Adam C. said:


> So it sounds like they may have downgraded you to a prior version of the software that does not support ads. My question is what is going to happen when they release the next software update to everyone. Is that going to start the cycle with the ads all over again?


That is a very good question. If getting rid of the ads, FOR NOW, keeps someone from rolling back to TE3 then if the ads "come back" later with a software update TE4 may be locked in at that time, cannot revert to TE3. I'd say the SAFEST thing to do is revert to TE3 now and see how things develop over time, monitor the groups here.


----------



## zubinh

calitivo said:


> Some initial thoughts after getting rid of the pre-roll. My initial Hydra experience was only last month after using Tivo's since 2002. It took me a little while to get used to it, but I was generally fine with the experience. In fact, my original mini seemed more responsive on the new UI. I did not realize I was seeing pre-rolls on the Bolt for the past couple of weeks. Just assumed mass advertising from some sponsors. "If you see something, say something", "DignityHealth" and local Subaru dealer. Around the same time, I started seeing the blue circle MUCH more frequently. I don't think I saw it at all the first few weeks. Now that my box has been reverted to its original condition, my opinion is that there is a noticeable difference in speed/response. I was immediately struck by how quickly programs loaded compared to most recent use. YMMV based on your personal UI experience.


This just re-affirms my decision to stick with TE3. I would love to have auto-skip and even though we now have some confirmation you can opt out of pre roll ads on TE4, the other potential drawbacks are just too big.


----------



## Joe3

BobCamp1 said:


> Finally, almost everybody in this forum has been a customer long enough and is eligible to opt out. So quit whining about it and do it already! Your empty threats of leaving Tivo for good ("and this time I mean it") and class-action lawsuits are falling on deaf ears because it's not going to happen. Downgrading to TE3 *will* happen because some people are paranoid. But maybe you can try opting out *before* the ads come to your Tivos; like a horrible virus infecting your DVR that posts your playlist on the Internet for everyone to see, sends an electrical surge frying all the components in your entertainment center, then finally bursts into flames.
> .


Wow, see the above for an example of the foreign philosophy of low expectations that's killing the country by making surrender and cowardice in the face of deception, the truth, but failing, thank God, always failing with a laugh.


----------



## tommage1

moyekj said:


> No, it's a server side setting associated with each TiVo in your account, not tied to specific software version. TiVo has a bunch of such settings completely under their control now, including for example ability to toggle on/off commercial skip capability. That's why it requires you to call in and provide your TiVo TSN # to get it changed. If they really wanted to they could add a toggle once you login to their web page, but obviously for this particular setting they don't want to make it that easy to disable.


Ah, that is good to know. Still would scare me that they could turn the ads back on at any time. And if TE4 is locked by then in nothing you could do about it. I wonder if the privacy/ads settings on your Tivo account could affect these pre-rolls. You can "opt out" one setting, limit ad tracking on another and reset your advertising ID on another.


----------



## Joe3

Jed1 said:


> According to TiVoTed these are things needed to keep out of pocket cost down going forward as the consumer side has not changed much in the past 20 years:
> TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording
> If to many of us retail owners either opt out of these ads or roll back to TE3 then there will be consequences for all retail owners going forward.


oh my! You go first and save us from the consequences of the Rovi *marauders.

"Where are those stinking little TiVo rebels, quick, quick, under the bed fellow Rovi marauders."
*


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> Wow, see the above for an example of the foreign philosophy of low expectations that's killing the country by making surrender and cowardice in the face of deception, the truth, but failing, thank God, always failing with a laugh.


I've tried a few generic brands but always come home to Reynolds; just can't beat them for reflectivity.


----------



## JoeKustra

snerd said:


> Maybe. I'm not using max power saving, I just manually put the boxes into standby. Maybe worth an experiment?
> Edit: have you tried it recently? Maybe they've fixed it...


If they think its fixed it was done without a software change. That said. I powered up a TE3 Roamio and placed it into Standby. After an hour I could access My Shows on my TE4 Roamio (it is in Standby) but received the BSC and NPL when trying to access the TE3 Roamio. I also tested my 500GB Premiere and did not have a problem.

One reason I have a TE4 Roamio is that its 3TB drive is used for storage, mostly movies. I have run into the bug of playing for 10 minutes then locking, but that seems to only happen when SM is applied to a program. Luckily that's a small percentage. Now I only move non-SM movies or programs to that drive.


----------



## Joe3

krkaufman said:


> I've tried a few generic brands but always come home to Reynolds; just can't beat them for reflectivity.


Get off of it, the guy is implying that there will be consequences for standing up to this BS ad money grab. Also, implying, we better watch out.


----------



## Adam C.

moyekj said:


> No, it's a server side setting associated with each TiVo in your account, not tied to specific software version. TiVo has a bunch of such settings completely under their control now, including for example ability to toggle on/off commercial skip capability. That's why it requires you to call in and provide your TiVo TSN # to get it changed. If they really wanted to they could add a toggle once you login to their web page, but obviously for this particular setting they don't want to make it that easy to disable.


That's what I would have thought. Just seemed odd that the guy said it was a 10-15 minute download...


----------



## humbb

Adam C. said:


> That's what I would have thought. Just seemed odd that the guy said it was a 10-15 minute download...


I guess it took that long to delete all the previously downloaded pre-roll ads.


----------



## mntvjunkie

CloudAtlas said:


> When TiVO splits into two companies in 2020 the Patents Inc side will no longer contribute to TiVO Inc. bottom line. Something has to replace this revenue stream! TiVO is adding a profitable recurring revenue stream so lowering prices would just offset this. That obviously makes zero business sense.
> 
> TiVO is just copying the current business model of Roku a company that was written off only a few years ago. Roku when faced with competition from Amazon, Apple, and Google changed its business model from hardware sales to ads+Video rental platform. TiVo's competition is just as daunting in Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon.
> 
> You don't have to like it but at least understand the reasoning.


Flawed logic. Roku charges less than $100 for the hardware and zero subscription fees. And Roku doesn't insert ads before every Netflix stream, only on the content they give you FOR FREE.

If even 10% of the customer base leaves, this concept will lose TiVo money in the long term. I bet at least 10% leave or forgo new purchases over this move.


----------



## mntvjunkie

smark said:


> Well, luckily you can now get Unlimited Data for $25 a month (xFi Gateway + Unlimited data) if you have a Blast Pro speed tier or higher.


So if I rent a $15 modem and pay $10 more for faster speeds, I get unlimited data for $25. Isn't that a wash?


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> Get off of it, the guy is implying that there will be consequences for standing up to this BS ad money grab. Also, implying, we better watch out.


And I *inferred* an entirely different, more direct meaning from his post. More a "quityerbi***ing and just rollback or opt-out" theme.


----------



## jcthorne

smark said:


> Well, luckily you can now get Unlimited Data for $25 a month (xFi Gateway + Unlimited data) if you have a Blast Pro speed tier or higher.


They started advertising that add on package but you have to break existing contracts to get it. IE its more expensive than the $50 a month unlimited data rate it replaces. Comcast will not let you add the package to an existing 'discounted' rate plan. IE I currently pay 99 a month for Gigabit plus 13 for the modem on a 2 yr contract. Unl data is an additional 50 for a total of 162. The new add on requires taking gigabit and the current full tilt rate of 160 and add the $25 package for 185 a month....not such a great deal. Comcast seldom does anything for less money.


----------



## krkaufman

mntvjunkie said:


> Flawed logic. Roku charges less than $100 for the hardware and zero subscription fees. And Roku doesn't insert ads before every Netflix stream, only on the content they give you FOR FREE.


And via their UI.


----------



## mntvjunkie

krkaufman said:


> And via their UI.


Right, something TiVo has actually done since day 1 to varying degrees (and it will come back, they have already stated as such). Pre-roll ads are another thing entirely.

One is looking at a billboard at a stop light, the other is being forced to watch an ad to get the light to turn green.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Get off of it, the guy is implying that there will be consequences for standing up to this BS ad money grab. Also, implying, we better watch out.


I don't know: after posting in this thread the past few days, my Bolt box went totally black screen on me yesterday during the evening news and would not respond--I had to watch on the television's tuner. (The TiVo came back 5+ minutes later.) It's never done that before.


----------



## bakerfall

jcthorne said:


> They started advertising that add on package but you have to break existing contracts to get it. IE its more expensive than the $50 a month unlimited data rate it replaces. Comcast will not let you add the package to an existing 'discounted' rate plan. IE I currently pay 99 a month for Gigabit plus 13 for the modem on a 2 yr contract. Unl data is an additional 50 for a total of 162. The new add on requires taking gigabit and the current full tilt rate of 160 and add the $25 package for 185 a month....not such a great deal. Comcast seldom does anything for less money.


This is not entirely true. I just added xFi advantage and while it did require me to upgrade to a 250 MB internet plan, and change my TV package, it was significantly cheaper than adding unlimited data. My bill went from $106 after taxes and fees to $136 after taxes and fees vs $156 for what it would have been just adding unlimited data. If you are interested, I would suggest going into a local xfinity store and have someone work with you. It was a surprisingly good customer service experience.


----------



## chrishicks

jcthorne said:


> They started advertising that add on package but you have to break existing contracts to get it. IE its more expensive than the $50 a month unlimited data rate it replaces. Comcast will not let you add the package to an existing 'discounted' rate plan. IE I currently pay 99 a month for Gigabit plus 13 for the modem on a 2 yr contract. Unl data is an additional 50 for a total of 162. The new add on requires taking gigabit and the current full tilt rate of 160 and add the $25 package for 185 a month....not such a great deal. Comcast seldom does anything for less money.


I may be an exception here but I just did this a few months back while still in a current discounted contract. I was paying $25.00/month for unlimited data under a promotion which was about to jump to $50.00/month because that part of my contract in the larger bundled deal was about to expire. I added/switched over to the xFi Advantage which ended up dropping off the $25.00/50.00 a month unlimited along with the original $13.00 gateway fee. Instead it changed to a total of $15.00 for the gateway and unlimited data saving me over $35.00/month in the end. Nothing about my current plan/promotion was adjusted other than that.


----------



## Noelmel

I wonder if the people who get the ads turned off and have the special version update will not get other new features later on though. Essentially being in “maintenance mode” again but on TE4. Like if some new great feature is introduced you have to upgrade to get it and then the ads return?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommage1

You know I still have one question about what's going on. And that is, is it ACTUALLY CONFIRMED that Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? Is that in the news somewhere, or been confirmed by Tivo Ted? Even with the ads I'd keep TE4 on the Bolt since I am using it to test external 3.5 PMR drives. Plus I like monitoring how it evolves (or devolves). And I would not mind seeing how the ads would affect me, I could always opt out. But I DON'T want to get stuck with TE4 forever, I still prefer TE3, at least for now. So is it FOR SURE confirmed Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? If so where is it confirmed and is there any possible time frame given?


----------



## Joe3

Noelmel said:


> I wonder if the people who get the ads turned off and have the special version update will not get other new features later on though. Essentially being in "maintenance mode" again but on TE4. Like if some new great feature is introduced you have to upgrade to get it and then the ads return?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please, look on bright side, Rovi/TiVo hasn't had an original great feature to introduced for anyone's must have to upgrade to get it since Rovi bought TiVo and wouldn't know an original great feature if it bit them.


----------



## Noelmel

calitivo said:


> Success! 72 hours later I tried and was still getting pre-roll ads on my Bolt (but not on the mini). Called support with my existing case number. They had me unplug and replug and then force an update. The update took a long time to load (probably 10-15 minutes), but once done, I am no longer seeing ads (or blue ring). Program loads immediately without delay. Running 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849.


Congrats! As you are the first person I've seen confirmed to get the ads removed. Are you on lifetime or month to month and how long have you been a customer. Trying to figure out their criteria for allowing to have them removed. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mattyro7878

TKnight206 said:


> I still submit suggestions for TE3 through the site on how to improve. Are these ignored, or will they possibly add features in the future?
> 
> Some things I'd like to see, to name just a few...
> 1. An automated way to mark which channels I receive. Starting from channel 1, going up to a user-defined limit, would mark which ones are received and which ones aren't along with HD status. Three to five second delay between channeling up.
> Then the user would have five choices in which channels are checked in the Channel List: HD only, SD only, HD Preferred, SD Preferred, and All.
> SD Preferred: If there is an HD and SD channel, same timezone, then it would remove the HD channel and list SD. SD takes up less space, and space may matter to some. Or they have it hooked up to an old TV.
> 2. A way to mark favorite shows or PIN them to the top.
> 3. A mono setting for audio. Oh how I miss this. My legacy DVR from Comcast had so many audio options.
> Anyone here watch South Park with headphones? The music is heavy on the right audio channel and it's immensely annoying.
> 
> Anyone, good luck. I imagine customer service is going to have an awful time regarding this pre-roll ad issue.


Ooh!! Standard definition mono!! Why spend big money on "the Cadillac of DVRs" if you're gonna use it like a 1979 cable box.


----------



## Joe3

tommage1 said:


> You know I still have one question about what's going on. And that is, is it ACTUALLY CONFIRMED that Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? Is that in the news somewhere, or been confirmed by Tivo Ted? Even with the ads I'd keep TE4 on the Bolt since I am using it to test external 3.5 PMR drives. Plus I like monitoring how it evolves (or devolves). And I would not mind seeing how the ads would affect me, I could always opt out. But I DON'T want to get stuck with TE4 forever, I still prefer TE3, at least for now. So is it FOR SURE confirmed Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? If so where is it confirmed and is there any possible time frame given?


Perhaps, the question you should ask yourself is why would Rovi/TiVo let me roll back if they can make more money off me?


----------



## mattyro7878

slice1900 said:


> That would be a pretty stupid design. If your internet goes down you can't watch anything!


Just how do service providers handle a situation where your tv is all internet based? If the broadband goes down you have no tv no internet !! Gotta grab a book and hope the electricity stays on? Wrong forum I know


----------



## TonyD79

Adam C. said:


> That's what I would have thought. Just seemed odd that the guy said it was a 10-15 minute download...


Download is just a convenient term. I'm sure it takes some time to propagate where've lists through their servers. Probably much less than 15 minutes but they like to play it safe. Then when you communicate with the mothership, it gets its status.


----------



## mattyro7878

krkaufman said:


> Yes it's a money grab, and seemingly a necessary one. If it keeps TiVo afloat longer, then it will have been worthwhile.


Pretty much my attitude. I love the product. It has no peer. Saves me 16 minutes out of every hour i watch tv. I am not gonna go nuts over 30 seconds.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommage1 said:


> You know I still have one question about what's going on. And that is, is it ACTUALLY CONFIRMED that Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? Is that in the news somewhere, or been confirmed by Tivo Ted? Even with the ads I'd keep TE4 on the Bolt since I am using it to test external 3.5 PMR drives. Plus I like monitoring how it evolves (or devolves). And I would not mind seeing how the ads would affect me, I could always opt out. But I DON'T want to get stuck with TE4 forever, I still prefer TE3, at least for now. So is it FOR SURE confirmed Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? If so where is it confirmed and is there any possible time frame given?


Some perhaps informative dialog from here:


DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo wasn't on the [Sept. 2019 CEDIA trade] show floor, but rather, they were tucked away in a room on the 1st floor of the Convention Center.
> 
> I met with most of those guys yesterday -- even briefly met TiVo Ted. Still not a whole bunch of news.
> 
> The Edge has a faster processor than the bolt and much better better thermal management. They were even more sketchy about the TiVo+ Service. I got the feeling that the channels they would be adding are not the normal Cable TV channels, but rather some other obscure stuff.
> 
> Perhaps I can get some more info today.





DigitalDawn said:


> They did say that a new update is coming when I asked about the Mini and issues with Amazon Prime and the A92/A93's. They would not confirm if TE3 users would get the update. I have a feeling those days might be over.





PSU_Sudzi said:


> I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?





DigitalDawn said:


> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.





Mikeguy said:


> Was it your impression that this was limited to the Bolt boxes, or would this change also apply to the Roamio boxes as well?





DigitalDawn said:


> Good question. However, I don't know.


I thought that I also read something else stating that rollbacks to TE3 would be eliminated in the future, but I can't find it, now.


----------



## tommage1

krkaufman said:


> I've tried a few generic brands but always come home to Reynolds; just can't beat them for reflectivity.


Just on the walls/windows or a hat too?


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Please, look on bright side, Rovi/TiVo hasn't had an original great feature to introduced for anyone's must have to upgrade to get it since Rovi bought TiVo and wouldn't know an original great feature if it bit them.


TiVo AutoSkip?*

* Of course, I'm having a time in thinking of something else.  Although, to be fair, tech. supposedly in the pipeline: the Mini Wireless Adapter; the Roku, Apple TV, and Fire TiVo apps; and even TiVo Plus. And who woulda thunk that TiVo would be coming out with the Edge box, which seems pretty sweet?


----------



## jakep_82

BobCamp1 said:


> Finally, almost everybody in this forum has been a customer long enough and is eligible to opt out. So quit whining about it and do it already! Your empty threats of leaving Tivo for good ("and this time I mean it") and class-action lawsuits are falling on deaf ears because it's not going to happen.


I'm not sure if I've been a customer long enough, and I'm not interested in calling Tivo to find out. This decision by Tivo makes it clear to me that they don't value the customer experience, and that's a signal for me that I should get out while the getting is good. I ordered a Tablo yesterday, and my Tivo will be on ebay next week. So yeah, my threats weren't actually empty. Tivo has lost me as a customer.


----------



## randian

TostitoBandito said:


> In addition to the several seconds of latency from when you play a recording to when the pre-roll ad begins, if I press any of those buttons it just goes to black screen for 20-30 seconds and the Tivo is totally unresponsive until I eventually get a "recording can't be played" error message and it goes back to live TV.


That is, from a certain point of view, a feature, not a bug. If skipping the ad takes just as long as watching it, you'll watch the ad. Win-Win for TiVo.


----------



## Mikeguy

jakep_82 said:


> I'm not sure if I've been a customer long enough, and I'm not interested in calling Tivo to find out. This decision by Tivo makes it clear to me that they don't value the customer experience, and that's a signal for me that I should get out while the getting is good. I ordered a Tablo yesterday, and my Tivo will be on ebay next week. So yeah, my threats weren't actually empty. Tivo has lost me as a customer.


As many an issue that I have with the on-call ads, I do think that TiVo values the customer experience. But it also values its stock price, being able to sell its constituent parts, its on-going existence, etc. It's the balance there and how best to reach it that seems in question.


----------



## jakep_82

Mikeguy said:


> As many an issue that I have with the on-call ads, I do think that TiVo values the customer experience. But it also values its stock price, being able to sell its constituent parts, its on-going existence, etc. It's the balance there and how best to reach it that seems in question.


Perhaps, but this seems like a pretty hostile way to do it. They could innovate a new feature people want, and charge a monthly fee to use it. Instead they took the lazy way out. That doesn't give me hope for the future, which is why I'm bailing now while my lifetime Bolt is still valuable.


----------



## Mikeguy

jakep_82 said:


> Perhaps, but this seems like a pretty hostile way to do it. They could innovate a new feature people want, and charge a monthly fee to use it. *Instead they took the lazy way out. *That doesn't give me hope for the future, which is why I'm bailing now while my lifetime Bolt is still valuable.


I agree, although I would put it as, perhaps, they took the easy way out. They have the ability to inject ads easily enough (relatively speaking), including having done it before--perhaps as distinct from developing value from the consumers' perspective. Perhaps a faster and easier way for a new CEO (one of many) to try to make his mark, shore the company up, and try to position it for sale.


----------



## CloudAtlas

mntvjunkie said:


> *Flawed logic. * Roku charges less than $100 for the hardware and zero subscription fees. And Roku doesn't insert ads before every Netflix stream, only on the content they give you FOR FREE.
> *If even 10% of the customer base leaves, this concept will lose TiVo money in the long term. I bet at least 10% leave or forgo new purchases over this move.*


Going with your made up numbers we have 10% of ~300,000 customer is 30,000 retail customers forgoing a new purchase they may never have made anyway. That is small compared to the *7+ million OEM cable company subscribers who pay monthly and will watch the pre-rolls happy that auto-Skip removed the other 16 minutes of ads.
*
Honestly the only reason TiVO didn't start serving up ads sooner is because of the Patent $$$ coming in. That's gone and something needs to replace that *recurring* revenue stream. Feel free to suggest one.


----------



## moyekj

CloudAtlas said:


> Going with your made up numbers we have 10% of ~300,000 customer is 30,000 retail customers forgoing a new purchase they may never have made anyway. That is small compared to the *7+ million OEM cable company subscribers who pay monthly and will watch the pre-rolls happy that auto-Skip removed the other 16 minutes of ads.
> *
> Honestly the only reason TiVO didn't start serving up ads sooner is because of the Patent $$$ coming in. That's gone and something needs to replace that *recurring* revenue stream. Feel free to suggest one.


I haven't seen any indication from TiVo these pre-roll ads will go to MSO units. In fact I'd be very surprised if that is the plan, and obviously they would need MSO permission for that as it is disruptive to MSO customers. My impression from Ted's posts is that this is to help subsidize retail units only.


----------



## hummingbird_206

I'm OOTL. What are MSO's and who are their customers?


----------



## krkaufman

tommage1 said:


> You know I still have one question about what's going on. And that is, is it ACTUALLY CONFIRMED that Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3?


No, I don't recall seeing TiVo officially confirming @DigitalDawn's breaking news, reposted last night ...


DigitalDawn said:


> PSU_Sudzi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?
> 
> 
> 
> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.
Click to expand...

... but reviewing @TiVo_Ted's post-CEDIA/-food poisoning posts would be the first place to look.***

edit: ** Update:* Nope, best place to look is @TiVo_Ted's comment posted just 3 minutes later, 2 posts below, >here<.


----------



## Jed1

CloudAtlas said:


> Going with your made up numbers we have 10% of ~300,000 customer is 30,000 retail customers forgoing a new purchase they may never have made anyway. That is small compared to the *7+ million OEM cable company subscribers who pay monthly and will watch the pre-rolls happy that auto-Skip removed the other 16 minutes of ads.
> *
> Honestly the only reason TiVO didn't start serving up ads sooner is because of the Patent $$$ coming in. That's gone and something needs to replace that *recurring* revenue stream. Feel free to suggest one.


The MSO boxes don't have skip mode as it will violate the retransmission agreements they have with the content owners. The MSO remotes have their Ondemand button where the skip button is.
https://www.secv.com/cdocs/TiVo_Leave_Behind_4.6_DVR-Mini.pdf


----------



## TiVo_Ted

tommage1 said:


> You know I still have one question about what's going on. And that is, is it ACTUALLY CONFIRMED that Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? Is that in the news somewhere, or been confirmed by Tivo Ted? Even with the ads I'd keep TE4 on the Bolt since I am using it to test external 3.5 PMR drives. Plus I like monitoring how it evolves (or devolves). And I would not mind seeing how the ads would affect me, I could always opt out. But I DON'T want to get stuck with TE4 forever, I still prefer TE3, at least for now. So is it FOR SURE confirmed Tivo will be eliminating roll backs to TE3? If so where is it confirmed and is there any possible time frame given?


I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


----------



## krkaufman

jakep_82 said:


> Perhaps, but this seems like a pretty hostile way to do it. They could innovate a new feature people want, and charge a monthly fee to use it. Instead they took the lazy way out. That doesn't give me hope for the future, which is why I'm bailing now while my lifetime Bolt is still valuable.


Or they simply could have been more transparent/open about their plans, rather than just turning it on. It's hard to imagine that user angst would have been greater if they'd been up-front about the coming change.


----------



## krkaufman

Mikeguy said:


> Some perhaps informative dialog from here:
> ... X ...
> I thought that I also read something else stating that rollbacks to TE3 would be eliminated in the future, but I can't find it, now.


X marks the spot.


----------



## krkaufman

moyekj said:


> I haven't seen any indication from TiVo these pre-roll ads will go to MSO units. In fact I'd be very surprised if that is the plan, and obviously they would need MSO permission for that as it is disruptive to MSO customers. My impression from Ted's posts is that this is to help subsidize retail units only.


I could see TiVo offering the same "feature" to MSO's, though, to allow them to insert their own ads. The ad catalog would be the MSO's, but TiVo would still get their taste.


----------



## krkaufman

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


Chuckle. We heard it via a CEDIA-sourced post re-quoted 3 minutes prior to your reply, >here<.

THANK YOU for the un-confirmation.


----------



## schatham

CloudAtlas said:


> Going with your made up numbers we have 10% of ~300,000 customer is 30,000 retail customers forgoing a new purchase they may never have made anyway. That is small compared to the *7+ million OEM cable company subscribers who pay monthly and will watch the pre-rolls happy that auto-Skip removed the other 16 minutes of ads.
> *
> Honestly the only reason TiVO didn't start serving up ads sooner is because of the Patent $$$ coming in. That's gone and something needs to replace that *recurring* revenue stream. Feel free to suggest one.


I get tired of hearing how retail is worthless to Tivo and their bread and butter is MSO's. Show some facts to support this because if it was true why not just kill off retail Tivo if it's such a burden.

Also Tivo should have waited and put the pre-roll ads in their new content. That would be fair.


----------



## bricco

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


When can we expect to get our hands on the Tivo Edge? 4-Tuner OTA and 6-Tuner Cable, please.


----------



## opfreak

zubinh said:


> Come on man, Ted comes here to give us some insight into whats going on at TiVo and you insult the man after he falls ill? Not good and I suggest you apologize.


only after he apologizes for calling a spinning circle that loads an ad a 'feature'.

Also joke went over your heads.


----------



## Mikeguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


Thanks, Ted--the danger of fractured information coming to people, from multiple sources, as well as the absence of other information. My personal consternation is with what seems to have been the original news source (apart from here  ) on the pre-roll rollout, routinely citing an unidentified "TiVo spokesperson." TiVo Rolling Out Skippable Pre-Roll Ads for Retail DVRs | Light Reading

Having you here is a good thing.


----------



## cwoody222

Noelmel said:


> I wonder if the people who get the ads turned off and have the special version update will not get other new features later on though. Essentially being in "maintenance mode" again but on TE4. Like if some new great feature is introduced you have to upgrade to get it and then the ads return?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is no "special version update". They just flip a switch on your account in the back end.


----------



## krkaufman

cwoody222 said:


> There is no "special version update". They just flip a switch on your account in the back end.


How many flips are involved, in toto?


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> As many an issue that I have with the on-call ads, I do think that TiVo values the customer experience. But it also values its stock price, being able to sell its constituent parts, its on-going existence, etc. It's the balance there and how best to reach it that seems in question.


Can't serve two masters. Can't burn a candle at both ends and not get burned.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Can't serve two masters. Can't burn a candle at both ends and get burned.


Really, there can't be a happy compromise for a company?


----------



## mntvjunkie

CloudAtlas said:


> Going with your made up numbers we have 10% of ~300,000 customer is 30,000 retail customers forgoing a new purchase they may never have made anyway. That is small compared to the *7+ million OEM cable company subscribers who pay monthly and will watch the pre-rolls happy that auto-Skip removed the other 16 minutes of ads.
> *
> Honestly the only reason TiVO didn't start serving up ads sooner is because of the Patent $$$ coming in. That's gone and something needs to replace that *recurring* revenue stream. Feel free to suggest one.


First, you are overestimating how much money TiVo makes from cable companies. The most recent number, which is probably a bit low, was around $2 per box to MSO's. IF TiVo rolls out ads to MSO's, they would easily get80% or more of that revenue, as they would owe some of it back to the programmers. Assuming per-box revenue for MSO has increased to $5, they would still make more on retail, if the volume was the same.

Now, ads go for an average of $3 per 1000 impressions. Average sub would likely see about 2500 in a year, so $7.50 a year per box. Let's assume, again very low numbers, that the average TiVo consumer spends $750 on their TiVo over 6 years (this assumes half of the customers don't get new boxes, assumes at least some pay monthly, and some have minis or multiple boxes). Simple math says that for each lost sub it would take 100 years to make up the ad revenue. Even if you think my estimations suck and you half that, it's 50 years. Think I'm WAAAY off? 1/4 would still be 25 years.

Some will leave, some will forgo planned purchases. It's hard to come up with any number that doesn't lose them money over no ads, which is why they'll turn them off if you complain.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Really, there can't be a happy compromise for a company?


No, not a Rovi/TiVo company. Unless the Edge can produce something more than an embarrassing giggle from the tech world and prove itself as a tech company. But they have had more years to prove they are still in the technology business, more years than any other tech company and so far has failed dissapontingly to show any progress other than a willingness to pick at our bones with ads. Rather, than giving us the technology that meets the needs of their customers, instead they chose to bite the hand that feeds them. The Rovi business plan.


----------



## tommage1

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


That is good news, I guess it was just a rumor. Since I can roll back to TE3 anytime I will continue my "test" of TE4 on my Bolt, thanks  Oh, you do say "to your knowledge", if that changes please post BEFORE they would do it.


----------



## mntvjunkie

tommage1 said:


> That is good news, I guess it was just a rumor. Since I can roll back to TE3 anytime I will continue my "test" of TE4 on my Bolt, thanks  Oh, you do say "to your knowledge", if that changes please post BEFORE they would do it.


Not saying TiVo would ever do this, but they COULD force TE 4 on you, even if you roll back (per the terms and conditions). They could also choose to outright discontinue the S3 and S4 regardless of lifetime status.

Again, not saying they would, but I also never thought they would do this, so.....


----------



## Series3Sub

BobCamp1 said:


> It's not lifetime, it's all-in. As in, "Tivo is awesome and can do no wrong." As per the agreement. It's perfectly fair to subject all-in customers to it, since they paid to get all of the "experience." Also, you bought all-in service because it was the cheapest plan. So technically you're already on the cheapest plan, and those plans are the ones most subject to ads.
> 
> And if you thought, "Tivo would never do something like insert pre-roll video ads," even though they have inserted ads on the home screen since day one and figured out how to put ads on the _pause bar_ of all places, then that also should influence your next purchase and whether you should pay for all-in service or not.
> 
> Besides, we've known for a while that the retail customers are pretty much beta testers for their more prized MSO customers. So if you're all-in in being a guinea pig, that's great. If not, that should influence your next decision about all-in service.
> 
> Finally, almost everybody in this forum has been a customer long enough and is eligible to opt out. So quit whining about it and do it already! Your empty threats of leaving Tivo for good ("and this time I mean it") and class-action lawsuits are falling on deaf ears because it's not going to happen. Downgrading to TE3 *will* happen because some people are paranoid. But maybe you can try opting out *before* the ads come to your Tivos; like a horrible virus infecting your DVR that posts your playlist on the Internet for everyone to see, sends an electrical surge frying all the components in your entertainment center, then finally bursts into flames.
> 
> Tell Tivo you've changed your mind and you now want out of the all-in experience. Even though you gave up all your leverage by going all-in in the first place. But please remember this the next time you buy your next Tivo's service plan.


Huh?


----------



## BobCamp1

jakep_82 said:


> I'm not sure if I've been a customer long enough, and I'm not interested in calling Tivo to find out. This decision by Tivo makes it clear to me that they don't value the customer experience, and that's a signal for me that I should get out while the getting is good. I ordered a Tablo yesterday, and my Tivo will be on ebay next week. So yeah, my threats weren't actually empty. Tivo has lost me as a customer.


Congratulations! I'm serious, BTW. Good luck with the Tablo -- it's not a bad DVR.

I'd also refer you to the Amazon Recast, but Amazon Prime puts NON-SKIPPABLE pre-roll ads in their streaming videos, so it's only a matter of time before they put that in the Recast. Somehow I don't think it's the right DVR for you.


----------



## randian

BobCamp1 said:


> Amazon Prime puts NON-SKIPPABLE pre-roll ads in their streaming videos


Those ads are 100% skippable on my Apple TV. I just fast-forward through them. It takes maybe 10 seconds to skip a minute or so of ads. They aren't terrible, since they're ads for other Amazon Video content and not random things like detergent.


----------



## KevTech

Should have just made a TE5 for edge and the pre roll ads are only on that plus any other units moving forward.


----------



## BobCamp1

KevTech said:


> Should have just made a TE5 for edge and the pre roll ads are only on that plus any other units moving forward.


But then they wouldn't be able to take advantage of their existing customers. That previous sentence has two meanings.


----------



## tenthplanet

The day there is a TE5, I can see it now.. I can't roll back to TE3  I can't roll back to TE4  I can't stream 8K . Google bought Tivo(Rovi)  Wait wipe that last one from you mind, you did not read that..


----------



## WVZR1

KevTech said:


> Should have just made a TE5 for edge and the pre roll ads are only on that plus any other units moving forward.


Yes!!!

Putting this 'FEATURE' out there unbeknownst to users answered all of their questions. What hardware handled it seemingly well, what hardware didn't/doesn't and generated opinions . The 72 hour delay in 'removing' allowed them also addition time to analyze the same as well as the likely revolt of the current users. They had CEDIA so they needed to implement it for marketing and it's very likely that the 'EDGE' hardware handles it well. With proper hardware it's maybe NOT to be considered a feature but likely less of a nuisance - there's no public release of the EDGE yet and I've seen no pricing links so who knows?

The S'ware package on the EDGE that was put into a users hands to rectify a sales issue certainly hinted a 'Beta' build!


----------



## krkaufman

tenthplanet said:


> Google bought Tivo


That reminds me ... Didn't Google buy SageTV? Whatever happened there?


----------



## tenthplanet

krkaufman said:


> That reminds me ... Didn't Google buy SageTV? Whatever happened there?


Supposedly that wanted the tech for the failed Google Fiber TV. And then there is this too.
SageTV to go open source (four years after Google acquired the media center/DVR software) - Liliputing
In the battle with Amazon who knows what Google will acquire. But if they bought both Tivo and Pace...Amazon might sweat a little. And you would have Tivo's with enough memory and power for live streaming apps.


----------



## tenthplanet

randian said:


> Those ads are 100% skippable on my Apple TV. I just fast-forward through them. It takes maybe 10 seconds to skip a minute or so of ads. They aren't terrible, since they're ads for other Amazon Video content and not random things like detergent.


HBO Now does the same thing.


----------



## tapokata

tenthplanet said:


> In the battle with Amazon who knows what Google will acquire. But they bought both Tivo and Pace...Amazon might sweat a little. And you would have Tivo's with enough memory and power for live streaming apps.


Given how badly Google pooped the bed with their overpay for NEST, and subsequent head scratching over how to integrate the Nest technology with Google's other products... I have little confidence that Google would have a clue what to do with TiVo.


----------



## slice1900

krkaufman said:


> May 2018. That's puttin' the ain't in maintenance.


The fact they haven't updated TE3 in over a year is a GOOD thing as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there are a few bugs but the ones I run into (a few cases where it loses its place in a live tuner, and losing sounds effects or getting a "black screen", either of which a thumbs down/thumbs up/play/play to restart the GUI) aren't show stoppers. I'd rather leave those bugs alone than have them alter the code and possibly introduce new bugs that are bigger issues for me.

The one thing I don't understand is how every once in a while when I do something simple like 'explore' on a recording I'll get a few seconds of the spinning blue circle. WTF, why isn't this data saved in the DVR instead of (apparently) being downloaded dynamically? But I'll live with that over them trying to fix it and possibly breaking something else worse.


----------



## DragonBard

tenthplanet said:


> In the battle with Amazon who knows what Google will acquire. But they bought both Tivo and Pace...


False, Google did not buy TiVo. Rovi purchased TiVo. Google is not involved at all with TiVo.


----------



## DigitalDawn

TiVo Ted's response regarding the ability to downgrade is actually very good news. I guess the TiVo guy I spoke to (not Ted) was misinformed, or the higher-ups changed their minds recently. 

I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here. 

If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me. I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.

There may be some other options for TiVo to make additional money. What if they added one or two dollars extra to the TiVo monthly service fee? What if you had the option to choose? 

It seems to me, that for most of you it's a "principle thing," and I get that. TiVo could have done this differently (raising the monthly price) and there wouldn't have been as much of a backlash. Hopefully they will reconsider or come up with something a little more palatable for most users.


----------



## SullyND

I don't mind TiVo rolling out ads to new customers, or existing customers who are month to month, or annual. Doing it to existing lifetime? Stinks.

I've been with TiVo long enough that I paid separately ($99) for "Home Media Option" on my S2 (it originally was an add on). TiVo bought some goodwill IMHO by implementing Skip-mode on existing hardware for free. They could have limited it to the Bolt, or charged more for it. (And I'd have gladly paid)

Instead of this ad "feature" if they offered new features, such as profiles, or better parental controls, and offered them as an add on (eg Lifetime subscribers, want user profiles? Now available for $100) I'd be all for it. Monthly subscription $5 more per month if you don't want preroll ads? Sure.

Forcing this "feature" on existing customers stinks.


----------



## djones18

*Pre-roll-ads Opt-out Update: *Success. After contacting TiVo Tech Support and waiting two days ads are gone at beginning of each recorded program. I did have to restart TiVo using 3-thumbs down method, then perform manual connection to TiVo server for update. As others have mentioned the update took about 15 minutes.


----------



## lucidrenegade

Joe3 said:


> No, not a Rovi/TiVo company. Unless the Edge can produce something more than an embarrassing giggle from the tech world and prove itself as a tech company. But they have had more years to prove they are still in the technology business, more years than any other tech company and so far has failed dissapontingly to show any progress other than a willingness to pick at our bones with ads. Rather, than giving us the technology that meets the needs of their customers, instead they chose to bite the hand that feeds them. The Rovi business plan.


Rovi's CEO (can't remember his name. Sounded like a spaghetti sauce) bet the farm on licensing Tivo patents, which are being invalidated left and right. I was hoping Edge would have been something new (Android TV based, etc.), but no. Just more of the same thing that's gotten them in the hole they're in. It's actually sad to see a pioneer like Tivo continually face plant.


----------



## krkaufman

tenthplanet said:


> In the battle with Amazon who knows what Google will acquire. But they bought both Tivo and Pace...Amazon might sweat a little. And you would have Tivo's with enough memory and power for live streaming apps.





DragonBard said:


> False, Google did not buy TiVo. Rovi purchased TiVo. Google is not involved at all with TiVo.


I'm inferring from the context of their statement that they neglected an "if," as in ... "But IF they bought both TiVo and Pace..."


----------



## jlb

DigitalDawn said:


> .....I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here.
> 
> If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me. I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.
> .......


I'm with you 100%. I also would prefer no ads, but for me, having TiVo is the most important part of the equation. And one more button press is not that big a deal to me. Heck, I don't even care that I don't have auto-skip. And there are even times where I use the FF method to advance even though I know I have the Skip button.

Every person is different. What is important to each of us may be different. But I wholeheartedly agree that perhaps the situation could have been handled differently.


----------



## tenthplanet

krkaufman said:


> I'm inferring from the context of their statement that they neglected an "if," as in ... "But IF they bought both TiVo and Pace..."


Whoops if is now added to the post..Thanks for catching that.


----------



## BobCamp1

mntvjunkie said:


> Not saying TiVo would ever do this, but they COULD force TE 4 on you, even if you roll back (per the terms and conditions). They could also choose to outright discontinue the S3 and S4 regardless of lifetime status.
> 
> Again, not saying they would, but I also never thought they would do this, so.....


I think "forcing customers to TE4" and "canceling/refusing the ad opt out" have the same (low) chance of happening for older customers. I wouldn't downgrade to TE3 just to avoid the small possibility of not being able to opt out of the ads in the future.

If you are a new customer, and you can't opt out, and you can't stand the ads, then I would recommend downgrading to TE3. Otherwise call Tivo up and opt out.

FYI, I knew they would do this because everybody else is doing it, even for paid services like Amazon Prime. Rovi has the ability to generate targeted ads which is where a lot of the money is made these days.


----------



## Joe3

SullyND said:


> I don't mind TiVo rolling out ads to new customers, or existing customers who are month to month, or annual. Doing it to existing lifetime? Stinks.
> 
> I've been with TiVo long enough that I paid separately ($99) for "Home Media Option" on my S2 (it originally was an add on). TiVo bought some goodwill IMHO by implementing Skip-mode on existing hardware for free. They could have limited it to the Bolt, or charged more for it. (And I'd have gladly paid)
> 
> Instead of this ad "feature" if they offered new features, such as profiles, or better parental controls, and offered them as an add on (eg Lifetime subscribers, want user profiles? Now available for $100) I'd be all for it. Monthly subscription $5 more per month if you don't want preroll ads? Sure.
> 
> Forcing this "feature" on existing customers stinks.





jlb said:


> I'm with you 100%. I also would prefer no ads, but for me, having TiVo is the most important part of the equation. And one more button press is not that big a deal to me. Heck, I don't even care that I don't have auto-skip. And there are even times where I use the FF method to advance even though I know I have the Skip button.
> 
> Every person is different. What is important to each of us may be different. But I wholeheartedly agree that perhaps the situation could have been handled differently.


You know guys, I too want to see TiVo thrive, grow, and stick around. I think this action is not a one and done thing. It's a pattern of behavior that sets the bar low and is the philosophy of low exceptions. It is the lazy idea of just enough is good enough. TiVo is an American invention and it should act that way and not in the way of a loser, which is a foreign idea to us, and false, but these words in our history have always been true.

"If a man can write a better book, preach a better sermon, or build a better *mouse*-*trap* than his neighbor; though he build him a house in the woods, yet will all the world make a beaten path to his door."


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> TiVo is an American invention and it should act that way and not in the way of a loser, which is foreign idead to us, and false, but these words in our history have always been true.


----------



## Narkul

DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo Ted's response regarding the ability to downgrade is actually very good news. I guess the TiVo guy I spoke to (not Ted) was misinformed, or the higher-ups changed their minds recently.
> 
> I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here.
> 
> If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me. I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.
> 
> There may be some other options for TiVo to make additional money. What if they added one or two dollars extra to the TiVo monthly service fee? What if you had the option to choose?
> 
> It seems to me, that for most of you it's a "principle thing," and I get that. TiVo could have done this differently (raising the monthly price) and there wouldn't have been as much of a backlash. Hopefully they will reconsider or come up with something a little more palatable for most users.


If this article is correct, then downgrading is a temporary fix.

TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status

"The company intends to roll out the commercials to users still on TiVo Experience 3 at a later date. So not updating to the latest software is not a way to avoid the ads."

Don't know much about the integrity of Techspot, and the article doesn't quote who exactly gave them this information. This may be a little worrisome for those running to TE3 though.


----------



## wmcbrine

hummingbird_206 said:


> I'm OOTL. What are MSO's and who are their customers?


MSOs = cable companies. TiVos that are rented from the cable company rather than purchased retail.


----------



## cwoody222

Narkul said:


> If this article is correct, then downgrading is a temporary fix.
> 
> TiVo confirms ads are coming to all DVR recordings regardless of subscription status
> 
> "The company intends to roll out the commercials to users still on TiVo Experience 3 at a later date. So not updating to the latest software is not a way to avoid the ads."
> 
> Don't know much about the integrity of Techspot, and the article doesn't quote who exactly gave them this information. This may be a little worrisome for those running to TE3 though.


Believe TiVo Ted, not a site which you do not know the integrity of.

All these various tech sites picked up the story and started to rewrite (ie: copy) the original to get their own page views.

They scoured sources (probably such as this forum) to get new details which may or not have been validated.

This isn't "reporting" it's regurgitation.

Tivo Ted works for TiVo. He has said TE3 won't get ads. He said it plainly. End of speculation.


----------



## hummingbird_206

wmcbrine said:


> MSOs = cable companies. TiVos that are rented from the cable company rather than purchased retail.


I had no idea that was happening. Thanks for the info.


----------



## JoeKustra

hummingbird_206 said:


> I had no idea that was happening. Thanks for the info.


One of the first: Service Electric Cablevision | TiVo

Like was posted, the remote's Skip button is the On Demand button. But they (SECV) have no problem with cable cards.


----------



## wmcbrine

hummingbird_206 said:


> I had no idea that was happening. Thanks for the info.


Supposedly they vastly outnumber retail TiVos now, although I've never been in the territory of a cable company that offered them.


----------



## hummingbird_206

wmcbrine said:


> Supposedly they vastly outnumber retail TiVos now, although I've never been in the territory of a cable company that offered them.


I seem to remember there was an effort years ago to put TiVo s/w on Comcast's DVRs, but I think that didn't work out. After that I lost track and as you mentioned, I was never in a place where the cable co offered a TiVo rather than their own DVR.


----------



## dianebrat

hummingbird_206 said:


> I seem to remember there was an effort years ago to put TiVo s/w on Comcast's DVRs, but I think that didn't work out. After that I lost track and as you mentioned, I was never in a place where the cable co offered a TiVo rather than their own DVR.


That was an enormous failure, the Motorola boxes couldn't handle the increased demands.
However many companies have been offering Tivo sourced boxes for years now, RCN is one of several common ones.


----------



## Jed1

tenthplanet said:


> Supposedly that wanted the tech for the failed Google Fiber TV. And then there is this too.
> SageTV to go open source (four years after Google acquired the media center/DVR software) - Liliputing
> In the battle with Amazon who knows what Google will acquire. But if they bought both Tivo and Pace...Amazon might sweat a little. And you would have Tivo's with enough memory and power for live streaming apps.


Arris bought Pace in 2016.
ARRIS Completes Pace Acquisition


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Jed1 said:


> Arris bought Pace in 2016.
> ARRIS Completes Pace Acquisition


Arris also bought Digeo years ago, who made Moxi DVRs, quite a good product, and then ran them into the ground. Moxi had an HD interface before TiVo did.


----------



## KevTech

Jed1 said:


> Arris bought Pace in 2016.


2018 Commscope purchased Arris.


----------



## wdwms

Can confirm pre-roll ads have been removed from my system after calling Tivo on Sunday.. HOWEVER, the guide ads are stil there. Will call them today. These are extremely annoying, i have memory of where specific channels are, now everything is all dorked up.


----------



## Mikeguy

DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo Ted's response regarding the ability to downgrade is actually very good news. I guess the TiVo guy I spoke to (not Ted) was misinformed, or the higher-ups changed their minds recently.
> 
> I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here.
> 
> If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me. I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.
> 
> There may be some other options for TiVo to make additional money. What if they added one or two dollars extra to the TiVo monthly service fee? What if you had the option to choose?
> 
> It seems to me, that for most of you it's a "principle thing," and I get that. TiVo could have done this differently (raising the monthly price) and there wouldn't have been as much of a backlash. Hopefully they will reconsider or come up with something a little more palatable for most users.


I think that the situation only has been exacerbated by the current glitchy-like implementation of the pre-roll ads pass-off and back, which turns a speedbump into something of a pothole.  Hopefully, that can be improved, but the fact of the involvement of TiVo's servers conceivably will place limits on what can be done. That will get old_ very_ fast.


----------



## Mikeguy

cwoody222 said:


> Tivo Ted works for TiVo. He has said TE3 won't get ads. He said it plainly. End of speculation.


Just for complete accuracy (and not meaning to predict anything negative by this):


TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


----------



## Jed1

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Arris also bought Digeo years ago, who made Moxi DVRs, quite a good product, and then ran them into the ground. Moxi had an HD interface before TiVo did.


Yes I actually had the 3 tuner Moxi with two mates but sold them as soon as Arris bought them. Arris sold the Moxi UI to Espial a few years ago. My cable company was using the Arris Whole Home solution (Moxi UI) but just switched to TiVo.
TiVo was actually my last choice as I originally was using TVGOS embedded devices like the Sony DHG, Windows Media Center with extenders, and Moxi. If it wasn't for the lawsuit settlement with Dish I think TiVo would have been long gone as they were really behind when it came to the HD UI, the use of client or extender boxes. I never liked TiVo Central as it seems there is always to many button pushes to get to things. With TVGOS there was a action bar at the top of the guide and you can access everything from there. There was also a master list of channels that downloaded to the guide and you can enter the channel editor to turn on the channels if your cable system added new channels.
Another thing I did not like about TiVo Central, especially with TE3, it is not an overlay menu and requires a HDMI handshake as it broadcasts in 720p. TiVo finally changed this with TE4.

Like I said I ended up with TiVo in the end as it is the only device left to consumers that uses CableCards. I had to buy my two CableCards years ago, paid $125 for each one. As long as I keep them active SECV will keep them going. I started using them in 2004. If I decide to stop using them then they are done so If I try to go back to cable I would then have to rent new ones.
One thing I learned over the years is these consumer owned guides and devices never really took off with the masses as the buy in cost was always to high or as in the case with WMC was to complicated for the average person to use even though WMC came with all XP, Vista, Win7 devices. TiVo is having the same problem as the buy in cost is way to high and I do feel that there is an unfortunate end coming just like what happened to TVGOS, WMC, and Moxi.


----------



## JoeKustra

Jed1 said:


> TiVo is having the same problem as the buy in cost is way to high and I do feel that there is an unfortunate end coming just like what happened to TVGOS, WMC, and Moxi.


You always manage to cheer me up.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

wmcbrine said:


> MSOs = cable companies.


Just for completeness (for the person that asked the question), MSO = Multiple System Operators. For regulatory reasons, a specific cable system is a single facility, but except for the really tiny players serving a single community most operators run multiple systems supporting multiple communities, making them MSOs (although in common usage of the term, it is used only for the slightly larger players, not some tiny player who happens to expand to the community next door).


----------



## Joe3

Jed1 said:


> Yes I actually had the 3 tuner Moxi with two mates but sold them as soon as Arris bought them. Arris sold the Moxi UI to Espial a few years ago. My cable company was using the Arris Whole Home solution (Moxi UI) but just switched to TiVo.
> TiVo was actually my last choice as I originally was using TVGOS embedded devices like the Sony DHG, Windows Media Center with extenders, and Moxi. If it wasn't for the lawsuit settlement with Dish I think TiVo would have been long gone as they were really behind when it came to the HD UI, the use of client or extender boxes. I never liked TiVo Central as it seems there is always to many button pushes to get to things. With TVGOS there was a action bar at the top of the guide and you can access everything from there. There was also a master list of channels that downloaded to the guide and you can enter the channel editor to turn on the channels if your cable system added new channels.
> Another thing I did not like about TiVo Central, especially with TE3, it is not an overlay menu and requires a HDMI handshake as it broadcasts in 720p. TiVo finally changed this with TE4.
> 
> Like I said I ended up with TiVo in the end as it is the only device left to consumers that uses CableCards. I had to buy my two CableCards years ago, paid $125 for each one. As long as I keep them active SECV will keep them going. I started using them in 2004. If I decide to stop using them then they are done so If I try to go back to cable I would then have to rent new ones.
> One thing I learned over the years is these consumer owned guides and devices never really took off with the masses as the buy in cost was always to high or as in the case with WMC was to complicated for the average person to use even though WMC came with all XP, Vista, Win7 devices. TiVo is having the same problem as the buy in cost is way to high and I do feel that there is an unfortunate end coming just like what happened to TVGOS, WMC, and Moxi.


If the TiVo buy in was a problem, it been a problem for years. So why didn't they come out with a non draconian solution.

They could have offered solutions to lower the cost of the buy in by shrinking the form factor for that very purpose. Offering a much smaller box that did not have a hard drive and have the customer buy the storage that meets their needs themselves. They could have offered ads for free service or no ads for subscriptions or for a one shot lifetime fee. This company is being run into the ground, forced to die the slow death greed and stupidity. The hard drive in the TiVo never reduced the price when hard drive prices were dropping. The savings never past along to consumers. (Greed) A high school's dropouts plan to throw the Ads down "everyone" throats like a greasy haired slick ripoff artist trying to sell you a used car on blocks. (Stupidity)


----------



## BobCamp1

Mikeguy said:


> I think that the situation only has been exacerbated by the current glitchy-like implementation of the pre-roll ads pass-off and back, which turns a speedbump into something of a pothole.  Hopefully, that can be improved, but the fact of the involvement of TiVo's servers conceivably will place limits on what can be done. That will get old_ very_ fast.


Also it didn't help that they released the new functionality to beta testers who didn't know they were beta testers. Therefore, they posted here panicked and it got off to a really bad start.

They may want to reset that list and ask the real beta testers to reapply.

The only thing worse than bad news is finding out about it second-hand.


----------



## snerd

Mikeguy said:


> I think that the situation only has been exacerbated by the current glitchy-like implementation of the pre-roll ads pass-off and back, which turns a speedbump into something of a pothole.  Hopefully, that can be improved, but the fact of the involvement of TiVo's servers conceivably will place limits on what can be done. That will get old_ very_ fast.


I believe it is technically possible for TiVo to implement pre-roll ads by downloading them in advance, perhaps in some sort of rotating fashion, all in the background. After all, the base OS underneath the TiVo code is Linux, which is perfectly capable of mulltitasking. There is no fundamental reason that the TiVo needs to wait for the launch of a recording to download the ad. It sounds to me like they've made some poor coding choices in their implementation of this "feature". It could be very snappy if done correctly.


----------



## Joe3

snerd said:


> ... It sounds to me like they've made some poor coding choices in their implementation of this "feature". It could be very snappy if done correctly.


Why, and why consistently do they do so much incorrectly in the technology area, ahh, not a real tech company since raided by their current jailers, oh owners, fits.


----------



## Charles R

snerd said:


> There is no fundamental reason that the TiVo needs to wait for the launch of a recording to download the ad.


I agree the ad could be "served" locally. At the same time I'm guessing the management (selection/tracking/etc) of the ads would still be handled remotely requiring two way communications. Of course you could batch some of that activity and in reality almost any task can be improved as it's simply a matter of time and money. However often neither is justifiable.


----------



## bobfrank

DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo Ted's response regarding the ability to downgrade is actually very good news. I guess the TiVo guy I spoke to (not Ted) was misinformed, or the higher-ups changed their minds recently.
> 
> I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here.
> 
> If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me.* I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. *Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.
> 
> There may be some other options for TiVo to make additional money. What if they added one or two dollars extra to the TiVo monthly service fee? What if you had the option to choose?
> 
> It seems to me, that for most of you it's a "principle thing," and I get that. TiVo could have done this differently (raising the monthly price) and there wouldn't have been as much of a backlash. Hopefully they will reconsider or come up with something a little more palatable for most users.


Amen


----------



## slice1900

snerd said:


> I believe it is technically possible for TiVo to implement pre-roll ads by downloading them in advance, perhaps in some sort of rotating fashion, all in the background. After all, the base OS underneath the TiVo code is Linux, which is perfectly capable of mulltitasking. There is no fundamental reason that the TiVo needs to wait for the launch of a recording to download the ad. It sounds to me like they've made some poor coding choices in their implementation of this "feature". It could be very snappy if done correctly.


That's how Directv has been doing ad insertion on its DVRs for years. The DVRs download ads (via satellite not internet) in the background and save them on the drive, and when something is playing they insert those ads in the slots reserved for the distributor (i.e. when your cable company runs ads for the local car dealer) If you watch on a receiver instead of a DVR you won't see those ads, instead you see ads for Directv/AT&T (i.e. these are the ones you see if you watch in a bar that has Directv)

Not sure why Tivo implemented this by live streaming the ads. I suppose it lets them select from a wider array of ads so they can target it more precisely based on who you are and what you're watching. They could download a bunch of ads so they've got one for everything you might record/watch, but some people might complain about how much bandwidth that's using downloading a bunch of ads 'just in case'. It doesn't matter for Directv since they're not using the internet.


----------



## JoeKustra

snerd said:


> I believe it is technically possible for TiVo to implement pre-roll ads by downloading them in advance, perhaps in some sort of rotating fashion, all in the background.


This was done pre-Roamio days. Some members would post seeing a red LED for no reason. I think the Discovery channel was used. There are no guide updates from 6pm to 2am, so that's a big hole to use.


----------



## mntvjunkie

DigitalDawn said:


> I'm going to say something that is probably unpopular here.
> 
> If it helps to keep TiVo selling retail boxes, the commercials really aren't a huge issue for me. I would rather have the commercials with TiVo than no commercials and no TiVo. Of course, zero pre-roll ads would be great, but it's only a quick button press to skip them; then the rest of the program is commercial free with Auto Commercial Skip. So, basically, it's a single button press more and you're done.
> 
> There may be some other options for TiVo to make additional money. What if they added one or two dollars extra to the TiVo monthly service fee? What if you had the option to choose?
> 
> It seems to me, that for most of you it's a "principle thing," and I get that. TiVo could have done this differently (raising the monthly price) and there wouldn't have been as much of a backlash. Hopefully they will reconsider or come up with something a little more palatable for most users.


Here's the thing, I am a HUGE Tivo Fan. In the past 20 years, I have had Tivo in my life for all but 6 months of them. I have sold Tivo to others, and I have even gifted Tivo. I did so because it was a premium experience, and it charged a premium price.

Adding ads, to me, makes this no longer a premium service, and I previously put up with just about ANYTHING to keep my Tivo. If that's the path they want to go down, then they need to stop charging premium pricing for it, and instead UNDERCUT the offering from the cable company. I fully realize that they are too small to afford this.

My concern is that ads will add very little to the bottom line, because they don't have the volume of people needed to really monetize that (ad money is a volume game after all). And they WILL lose the premium end of the market in this (how much is that, who knows?) Even if that is a small number of retail, this move WILL backfire and make them less money in the long term, but probably make stockholders happy short term. If Tivo loses money long term, they won't be around for long, because they have very little runway.

So yes, I TOO want to do whatever I can to help Tivo to stay around, my argument is that THIS IS NOT IT at least how it's currently implemented. If they offered an ad supported "version" for less money, now we are talking. This is a "hail mary" desperation pass that fells like it will fail, and lead to the end of retail Tivo.

My opinion, and my two cents, based on how people I speak with are reacting to the news.


----------



## RoamioJeff

JoeKustra said:


> This was done pre-Roamio days. Some members would post seeing a red LED for no reason. I think the Discovery channel was used. There are no guide updates from 6pm to 2am, so that's a big hole to use.


I actually used to see that phantom recording on my Roamio a long time ago after I first purchased it (night owl  ). I think it was during the first year after the Roamio was released

And it was recording TiVo ads (TiVo infomercials, if you will).

But I've not seen that behavior in a loooong time.


----------



## Narkul

cwoody222 said:


> Believe TiVo Ted, not a site which you do not know the integrity of.
> 
> All these various tech sites picked up the story and started to rewrite (ie: copy) the original to get their own page views.
> 
> They scoured sources (probably such as this forum) to get new details which may or not have been validated.
> 
> This isn't "reporting" it's regurgitation.
> 
> Tivo Ted works for TiVo. He has said TE3 won't get ads. He said it plainly. End of speculation.


Tivo Ted said "At this point" there are not plans to implement this to TE3 and he took 2 posts to issue that carefully worded sentence. 
I'm sure Tivo Ted's a great guy around here, but he's also looking out for his company and is going to say what he needs to in order to not frighten away customers. Tivo Ted did not say TE3 will never get pre-roll, nor did he say TE3 will never come out of "maintenance" to receive this "feature". If 3/4th's of the user base moves to TE3, so will this new feature, unless of course individual tos's allows opting out which I hope is true.
With that said, if I have to choose Tivo with skippable pre-roll ads, or Tivo folding as a company not making enough income, I'll take the ads. I would much rather have seen some banner ads take the place of some of the poster-style show suggestions across the bottom of the UI. I don't appreciate anything getting in the way of starting a recording.


----------



## MikeekiM

Joining this thread late in the game... Just heard about the pre-roll ads, and have actually never heard about the UI/software referred to as TE3 and TE4... So now I am aware...  Having not had a chance to look through this thread, why is TE3 safe for now? Is there a technical limitation? Don't get me wrong, I am happy that my TE3 box won't have any pre-roll advertisements (at least for now)... But I am curious...

If TiVo could do it for TE3 and TE4, why would they not just go ahead and do it? Rip off the bandaid...

Again...not wishing for this to happen...just curious about the root cause of not doing it on TE3...


----------



## Mikeguy

Narkul said:


> Tivo Ted said "At this point" there are not plans to implement this to TE3 and he took 2 posts to issue that carefully worded sentence.
> I'm sure Tivo Ted's a great guy around here, but he's also looking out for his company and is going to say what he needs to in order to not frighten away customers. Tivo Ted did not say TE3 will never get pre-roll, nor did he say TE3 will never come out of "maintenance" to receive this "feature". If 3/4th's of the user base moves to TE3, so will this new feature, unless of course individual tos's allows opting out which I hope is true.
> With that said, if I have to choose Tivo with skippable pre-roll ads, or Tivo folding as a company not making enough income, I'll take the ads. I would much rather have seen some banner ads take the place of some of the poster-style show suggestions across the bottom of the UI. I don't appreciate anything getting in the way of starting a recording.


As I've pointed out earlier and as you've said here as well, Ted has been careful, as he should be, not to make absolute, blanket statements about things not happening in the future (unless, of course, that's a certainty). New CEOs come in, business needs and focuses change, the market and customer actions change (Ted mentioned that what is happening now relates to the TiVo consumer business model that has changed little over the past 20 years), technology changes. Personally, I take what he's saying for what he's saying, but keeping in mind the "at this point"s.

And agreed as to the ads consideration (well, if there is no other way to assure survival . . .), including how it's done. I understand what Ted said earlier, a pre-roll ad is not (or may not be) much of an issue in practice, considering that a user often is going to be skipping ads at the top of a show recording anyway (unless the recording has managed the marvel of avoiding ads there). But in the current pre-roll streaming implementation, there seems to be a bit of a kerchung interruption in getting the process started, with, as one person reported, several seconds of latency before the pre-roll comes up--there also have been 20-30 second technical glitches in trying to skip the pre-roll and then being dumped back into live tv. And then consider this occurring time after time, with each play of a new show. This is just painful for the TiVo Experience, which I truly enjoy. It_ almost_ makes me wish for a return to the day of static pause ads--although I disliked them and their intrusion into my show experience, at least they really were speedbumps as vs. potholes.


----------



## Narkul

MikeekiM said:


> Joining this thread late in the game... Just heard about the pre-roll ads, and have actually never heard about the UI/software referred to as TE3 and TE4... So now I am aware...  Having not had a chance to look through this thread, why is TE3 safe for now? Is there a technical limitation? Don't get me wrong, I am happy that my TE3 box won't have any pre-roll advertisements (at least for now)... But I am curious...
> 
> If TiVo could do it for TE3 and TE4, why would they not just go ahead and do it? Rip off the bandaid...
> 
> Again...not wishing for this to happen...just curious about the root cause of not doing it on TE3...


It takes Tivo a looong time to come out with a feature update and address all the bugs. My guess is they don't want to waste resources on a previous version they would like to retire.


----------



## Mikeguy

MikeekiM said:


> Joining this thread late in the game... Just heard about the pre-roll ads, and have actually never heard about the UI/software referred to as TE3 and TE4... So now I am aware...  Having not had a chance to look through this thread, why is TE3 safe for now? Is there a technical limitation? Don't get me wrong, I am happy that my TE3 box won't have any pre-roll advertisements (at least for now)... But I am curious...
> 
> If TiVo could do it for TE3 and TE4, why would they not just go ahead and do it? Rip off the bandaid...
> 
> Again...not wishing for this to happen...just curious about the root cause of not doing it on TE3...


Starting with TiVo_Margret and the emergence of TE4 (the current UI), TiVo has seemed to realize that TE4 is a more radical change than some users would like--almost like Windows 8 as compared to Windows 7. Seemingly out of recognition of this and to try to woo--rather than force--customers to the new UI, TiVo made TE3 roll-back possible and kept TE3 in place ("hey, try the new UI out--you'll like it, but if not, you can roll back"). In one sense, this was very conscientious to do. (Having said that, as someone here most recently pointed out, TE3_ has to_ remain in place at least to a degree, as pre-Roamio boxes cannot do TE4--query if, given that, it's much of an issue also keeping it as an option for Roamio and Bolt boxes.)

Add to this the fact that TE4 just doesn't do some fundamental things that TE3 does and has (and which TiVo historically has had, and has made much out of in marketing): the Live Guide, PC-to-TiVo box transfers, a working Suggestions feature, and on-board (rather than thru TiVo Online) TiVo box-to-TiVo box transfers. Keeping TE3 available helps quell the upset that would result otherwise thru the loss of these multiple features with a mandated TE4 use.

And then, perhaps a practical matter as to why no pre-roll ads in TE3: the software would need to be modified, which takes time and energy and money. And perhaps this also is a concession to the TiVo user stalwarts who just don't want those ads to come.


----------



## bobfrank

Mikeguy said:


> Starting with TiVo_Margret and the emergence of TE4 (the current UI), TiVo has seemed to realize that TE4 is a more radical change than some users would like--almost like Windows 8 as compared to Windows 7. Seemingly out of recognition of this and to try to woo--rather than force--customers to the new UI, TiVo made TE3 roll-back possible and kept TE3 in place ("hey, try the new UI out--you'll like it, but if not, you can roll back"). In one sense, this was very conscientious to do. (Having said that, as someone here most recently pointed out, TE3_ has to_ remain in place at least to a degree, as pre-Roamio boxes cannot do TE4--query if, given that, it's much of an issue also keeping it as an option for Roamio and Bolt boxes.)
> 
> Add to this the fact that TE4 just doesn't do some fundamental things that TE3 does and has (and which TiVo historically has had, and has made much out of in marketing): the Live Guide, PC-to-TiVo box transfers, a working Suggestions feature, and on-board (rather than thru TiVo Online) TiVo box-to-TiVo box transfers. Keeping TE3 available helps quell the upset that would result otherwise thru the loss of these multiple features with a mandated TE4 use.
> 
> And then, perhaps a practical matter as to why no pre-roll ads in TE3: the software would need to be modified, which takes time and energy and money. And perhaps this also is a concession to the TiVo user stalwarts who just don't want those ads to come.


Well said. I think that the move to TE4 is much more damaging to the enjoyment of the Tivo experience than the pre-roll ads would ever be. Of course, that's why I am going to stay on TE3 as long as possible.


----------



## Mikeguy

bobfrank said:


> Well said. I think that the move to TE4 is much more damaging to the enjoyment of the Tivo experience than the pre-roll ads would ever by. Of course, that's why I am going to stay on TE3 as long as possible.


I have to admit, I get jealous, at times, of our peers on TE4--it really does look sleek. Now that the fear of the removal of the TE3 rollback feature has been quelled (at least at present), I'm back at thinking of trying TE4 out on my TiVo box that needs to be C&DE'ed anyway.


----------



## mattyro7878

I rolled back and lasted less than a day. The smaller, less accurate progress bar, the loss of video when watching a recording and going to Tivo Central, and no skip mode were some of the reasons. I honestly enjoy TE4 more. Seeing "transfer" as an option was nice, I must admit.


----------



## TonyD79

Joe3 said:


> Why, and why consistently do they do so much incorrectly in the technology area, ahh, not a real tech company since raided by their current jailers, oh owners, fits.


While they sort of led in the dvr world in the beginning, I am reluctant to say TiVo was ever a great coding company. They saw the future a bit and still do (tying in streaming into one passes was forward thinking, just poorly implemented) but their execution has always been just a step off. Or have we forgotten how long it took to roll out an HD GUI?


----------



## MikeekiM

Narkul said:


> It takes Tivo a looong time to come out with a feature update and address all the bugs. My guess is they don't want to waste resources on a previous version they would like to retire.





Mikeguy said:


> And then, perhaps a practical matter as to why no pre-roll ads in TE3: the software would need to be modified, which takes time and energy and money. And perhaps this also is a concession to the TiVo user stalwarts who just don't want those ads to come.


Yup... This makes complete sense... Thanks!


----------



## cwoody222

wdwms said:


> Can confirm pre-roll ads have been removed from my system after calling Tivo on Sunday.. HOWEVER, the guide ads are stil there. Will call them today. These are extremely annoying, i have memory of where specific channels are, now everything is all dorked up.


Can you post a photo of the guide ads?


----------



## cwoody222

JoeKustra said:


> This was done pre-Roamio days. Some members would post seeing a red LED for no reason. I think the Discovery channel was used. There are no guide updates from 6pm to 2am, so that's a big hole to use.


Tivo would record content of 10ish minutes in length that would be accessible via the "Yellow start ads".

Things like "Get a preview of this fall's new shows on CBS".

This was way before Roamio when high speed connections were t the norm and TiVo's were connected by phone lines, not Ethernet/WiFi.

Doing that in today's environment for some 30-sec ads would be overkill.

Plus, not feasible in terms of when advertisers what to swap out ad content quickly and to deliver new ad campaigns quickly.

I'm also not sure if current models have reserved space on the HDs to store these. Even a few 30sec ads taking up HD space would have users screaming


----------



## tenthplanet

JoeKustra said:


> This was done pre-Roamio days. Some members would post seeing a red LED for no reason. I think the Discovery channel was used. There are no guide updates from 6pm to 2am, so that's a big hole to use.


Oh the "secret data broadcasts" I remember those. And you would see weird black and white screens if you looked at the broadcasts without a Tivo. Fun stuff


----------



## cwoody222

Teleworld Paid Programming 

TeleWorld Paid Proram From Tivo WTF!


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

mattyro7878 said:


> I rolled back and lasted less than a day. The smaller, less accurate progress bar, the loss of video when watching a recording and going to Tivo Central, and no skip mode were some of the reasons. I honestly enjoy TE4 more. Seeing "transfer" as an option was nice, I must admit.


hmm, the progress bar on my TE3 goes across the whole screen and making video display (live or recording) when going to TiVo Central is just a setting that it seems you don't have turned on.


----------



## tenthplanet

cwoody222 said:


> Teleworld Paid Programming
> 
> TeleWorld Paid Proram From Tivo WTF!


Teleworld that's what I couldn't remember.


----------



## bobfrank

mattyro7878 said:


> I rolled back and lasted less than a day. The smaller, less accurate progress bar, the loss of video when watching a recording and going to Tivo Central, and no skip mode were some of the reasons. I honestly enjoy TE4 more. Seeing "transfer" as an option was nice, I must admit.


To each his own. However TE3 does have skip, just not _auto _skip.


----------



## exdishguy

MikeekiM said:


> Joining this thread late in the game... Just heard about the pre-roll ads, and have actually never heard about the UI/software referred to as TE3 and TE4... So now I am aware...  Having not had a chance to look through this thread, why is TE3 safe for now? Is there a technical limitation? Don't get me wrong, I am happy that my TE3 box won't have any pre-roll advertisements (at least for now)... But I am curious...
> 
> If TiVo could do it for TE3 and TE4, why would they not just go ahead and do it? Rip off the bandaid...
> 
> Again...not wishing for this to happen...just curious about the root cause of not doing it on TE3...


The short answer is that the old interface (TE3) is in maintenance mode, which means there are far less software developers working on TE3 any longer. Instead those developers have long ago been reassigned to the "new experience" to accelerate developing new features for the new (TE4) software. TE3 is likely a skeleton team of very few people (at best IMO) writing code for bug-fixes, if and when they are needed.

So when Tivo_Ted says that TE3 in in maintenance mode and Tivo has no known current plans in place to implement pre-roll ads into TE3, we should take him at his word. It is very unlikely they'd want to pull resources off TE4 development to work on the old code-base to attempt to squeeze in some new features. Is there a chance they could change their mind if this new pre-roll ad features generates Brewster's kajillions? Sure, they could assign more developers to develop new features on TE3. But the probability is pretty low (or so we all hope).


----------



## krkaufman

exdishguy said:


> So when Tivo_Ted says that TE3 in in maintenance mode and Tivo has no known current plans in place to implement pre-roll ads into TE3, we should take him at his word. It is very unlikely they'd want to pull resources off TE4 development to work on the old code-base to attempt to squeeze in some new features. Is there a chance they could change their mind if this new pre-roll ad features generates Brewster's kajillions? Sure, they could assign more developers to develop new features on TE3. But the probability is pretty low (or so we all hope).


I believe the fear is that TiVo would only briefly pop TE3 out of maintenance mode to add just one new "feature" ... pre-roll ads.

But, as TiVo_Ted said, no current plans to push the ads to TE3.


----------



## MikeekiM

LOL... One of the few times that I am happy about being on unsupported software!!!


----------



## krkaufman

PSU_Sudzi said:


> making video display (live or recording) when going to TiVo Central is just a setting that it seems you don't have turned on.


I believe the user is referencing the brief audio and video drop-outs for the Video Window experienced on TE3 when toggling between full screen and the Video Window view within the menu ... which has been fixed on TE4.


----------



## opfreak

jlb said:


> I'm with you 100%. I also would prefer no ads, but for me, having TiVo is the most important part of the equation. And one more button press is not that big a deal to me. Heck, I don't even care that I don't have auto-skip. And there are even times where I use the FF method to advance even though I know I have the Skip button.
> 
> Every person is different. What is important to each of us may be different. But I wholeheartedly agree that perhaps the situation could have been handled differently.


maybe they should innovate to get more consumers and make the product more appealing. Instead they'd rather piss off current consumers to make an quick buck.


----------



## exdishguy

opfreak said:


> maybe they should innovate to get more consumers and make the product more appealing. Instead they'd rather piss off current consumers to make an quick buck.


I don't think its to make a quick buck per se on just selling an ad. I'm convinced they are trying to drive up their valuation by creating a targeted advertisement/analytics platform. Google is not worth billions because they have a great search engine. Facebook is not worth billions because they let your Senior-High Prom date "reconnect" with you. It's about targeted ads and the analytics behind them.

I doubt its lost on them that there will be attrition from their loyal 20-year old customer base - they've done the math and calculated the valuation will be much higher when they finally sell this thing to more than make up for any lost revenue associated with their worst case attrition estimates. Bottom line - Rovi wants its money back and they are going all-in on selling Tivo to the very highest bidder - customers be damned.


----------



## reneg

bobfrank said:


> To each his own. However TE3 does have skip, just not _auto _skip.


I'm happy with TE3 Autoskip from Skipmode in kmttg. With minor effort, I can even auto skip enable shows without skip data.


----------



## moyekj

krkaufman said:


> I believe the user is referencing the brief audio and video drop-outs for the Video Window experienced on TE3 when toggling between full screen and the Video Window view within the menu ... which has been fixed on TE4.


Which only would matter if one actually uses a video window. Personally I avoid that "spoiler" video window completely so this is a non factor.


----------



## barnabas1969

How can we start a campaign against Tivo?

I pay Tivo for service every month.

But now... I am forced to watch a COMMERCIAL before I can watch the RECORDED TV SHOWS that I recorded on my TIVO???

And... I recorded those shows from my CABLE COMPANY... AND MY CABLE COMPANY ***ALSO*** FORCES ME TO WATCH COMMERCIALS EVEN THOUGH I PAY TO RECEIVE THE CABLE CHANNELS???

Jesus! Where does it end?


----------



## chrishicks

It won't end until all life as we know it is just one giant ad. I'm personally looking forward to the day we all have personal TV watching assistants who make sure we watch the ads we're supposed to. It's going to be wonderful.










And when people in the future try to learn how it got so bad they'll be shocked to see that it all started because "dude, if it helps Tivo I'm cool with it".


----------



## Mikeguy

There is an irony for advertisers here. TiVo makes it possible for viewers to skip advertisers' regular broadcast commercials, thru ff, 30-second skip, SkipMode, and now AutoSkip. To try to get viewers to watch their commercials, the advertisers then have to pay TiVo separately to run the ads as pre-rolls (which, although they can be ff'ed or skipped thru, can't be AutoSkipped through). Kinda genius.


----------



## shannon94188

fyi, I called on Saturday to get the ads removed and today I noticed they're gone. I did not have to do any reboot on my own. Huzzah!


----------



## tarheelblue32

barnabas1969 said:


> How can we start a campaign against Tivo?
> 
> I pay Tivo for service every month.
> 
> But now... I am forced to watch a COMMERCIAL before I can watch the RECORDED TV SHOWS that I recorded on my TIVO???
> 
> And... I recorded those shows from my CABLE COMPANY... AND MY CABLE COMPANY ***ALSO*** FORCES ME TO WATCH COMMERCIALS EVEN THOUGH I PAY TO RECEIVE THE CABLE CHANNELS???
> 
> Jesus! Where does it end?


Oh stop being so dramatic. I don't like the pre-roll ads anymore than you do, but you're not being forced to watch them. You can skip them with a single button push or you can call TiVo and get them removed.


----------



## mattyro7878

PSU_Sudzi said:


> hmm, the progress bar on my TE3 goes across the whole screen and making video display (live or recording) when going to TiVo Central is just a setting that it seems you don't have turned on.


I have the video window turned on and I see it when going to Tivo Central. After the hiccup where there is no picture ...just a blank square. You mean to tell me you think the progress bar is equally accurate in both systems? Whatever time you spent with Hydra you obviously have forgotten this aspect of it.


----------



## TKnight206

BobCamp1 said:


> It's not lifetime, it's all-in.


https://support.tivo.com/articles/Essential_Summary/TiVo-Payment-Plans-and-Policies


> The All-In Plan provides service for the life of the TiVo device for which it is purchased, and remains with the device in the event of an ownership transfer.


I'm not going to argue this. My point still stands.



slude said:


> Just a few years ago TiVo defined "lifetime" as something shorter than the life of the box IMPORTANT NOTICE: Your TiVo Series1 DVR will stop recording shows after September 29


Weren't Series 1 boxes killed off because they weren't compatible with Rovi's guide data or something? Am I wrong? I'm not saying it was right to kill off series one.

Edited to add: Here we go: TiVo Series 1 "Lifetime" Service Ceases September 29th


> UPDATE: TiVo admits it wasn't cost-effective to retrofit the Series 1 for Rovi guide data, but will work with folks dissatisfied with the $75 buyout (or those excluded entirely?) and have already sweetened the deal.





randian said:


> I don't want ads either. Avoiding them was a big value-add for TiVo. Retail TiVos are where ads make the least sense, because those customers are probably the most sensitive to them and have the most freedom to switch boxes and services. Customers with MSO-branded TiVos presumably care the least about ads and other indecencies heaped upon them by the MSO, otherwise they'd switch. If TiVo's goal is to rid themselves of retail customers this would be an effective way to do it.
> 
> A two-tiered approach doesn't exactly scream "bring down the out-of-pocket costs for consumers over time", does it?


I think it all depends upon marketing (for two-tiered pricing.) They could probably spin it a certain way.

Increasing cable DVR rental fees pushed me to TiVo.


----------



## dlfl

These ads are the final straw confirming the decision I already had made: My Roamio base model, running TE3, with a lifetime sub, is the last TiVo I will ever own. Overall, I like my Roamio. I can hold my nose and live with the sloppy guide data, and the problems I have with my TA, which aren't TiVo's fault. Hopefully I can keep using my Roamio for a long time by replacing HDD's or wall-wart power supply (both easy to do). And it can be re-configured to OTA if I finally have to cut the cable cord. The newer TiVo models cost too much and don't provide any enhancement of significance to me.


----------



## Sparky1234

dlfl said:


> These ads are the final straw confirming the decision I already had made: My Roamio base model, running TE3, with a lifetime sub, is the last TiVo I will ever own. Overall, I like my Roamio. I can hold my nose and live with the sloppy guide data, and the problems I have with my TA, which aren't TiVo's fault. Hopefully I can keep using my Roamio for a long time by replacing HDD's or wall-wart power supply (both easy to do). And it can be re-configured to OTA if I finally have to cut the cable cord. The newer TiVo models cost too much and don't provide any enhancement of significance to me.


Bolt+ is faster.


----------



## JWJM3

E-mailed TiVo support and told them that the ads were unacceptable and if they continued I would cancel and move to Comcast DVRs. Received this back:
We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.

Ads are gone...


----------



## cwoody222

mattyro7878 said:


> I have the video window turned on and I see it when going to Tivo Central. After the hiccup where there is no picture ...just a blank square. You mean to tell me you think the progress bar is equally accurate in both systems? Whatever time you spent with Hydra you obviously have forgotten this aspect of it.


I have used TiVo for close to 20 years and I've never once thought my progress bar was inaccurate nor have I heard anyone else ever say so. On any version of software.


----------



## Scyth3

I just saw our first pre-roll ad yesterday. I'm going to wireshark it and see if we can just block a set of hosts/IP's and what the outcome of that might be.


----------



## Mikeguy

tarheelblue32 said:


> Oh stop being so dramatic. I don't like the pre-roll ads anymore than you do, but you're not being forced to watch them. You can skip them with a single button push or you can call TiVo and get them removed.


This new feature apparently has hit many people negatively. With all due respect, for some people, it's not a simple button press issue (which alone may be irritating to now have to do)--from the original video and descriptions of the feature in action (I'm on TE3 and don't get the pre-roll ads), it's a bit of a kerchung to the TiVo Experience, in the current implementation, if not sometimes resulting in a system malfunction.


----------



## Scyth3

tarheelblue32 said:


> Oh stop being so dramatic. I don't like the pre-roll ads anymore than you do, but you're not being forced to watch them. You can skip them with a single button push or you can call TiVo and get them removed.


Huh? You're 100% being forced to see an ad. You might have not have fully watched it, but you did indeed get disrupted with an advertisement to the point of where you had to intervene with a button to no longer keep watching it.

Really they should have an option to disable them in the settings, much like FiOS had on their DVRs. Most "normal" users will never figure it out and they'll profit, but those that are power users will know how to turn them off. No need to involve customer support or any of that jazz. Perhaps they leave them disabled for lifetime customers, etc. There are lots of A/B test permutations they should've run before pushing this into production.


----------



## krkaufman

Sparky1234 said:


> Bolt+ is faster.




dlfl said:


> ... don't provide any enhancement of significance to me.


----------



## 241705

If this generates some revenue and helps to keep TiVo alive, I can deal with having to skip pre-roll ads. It's only TV, after all.


----------



## BobCamp1

barnabas1969 said:


> How can we start a campaign against Tivo?
> 
> I pay Tivo for service every month.
> 
> But now... I am forced to watch a COMMERCIAL before I can watch the RECORDED TV SHOWS that I recorded on my TIVO???
> 
> And... I recorded those shows from my CABLE COMPANY... AND MY CABLE COMPANY ***ALSO*** FORCES ME TO WATCH COMMERCIALS EVEN THOUGH I PAY TO RECEIVE THE CABLE CHANNELS???
> 
> Jesus! Where does it end?


Well, you can cancel your Tivo and cable service. Because voting with your wallet is the only sure fire way to get their attention.


----------



## Mikeguy

BobCamp1 said:


> Well, you can cancel your Tivo and cable service. Because voting with your wallet is the only sure fire way to get their attention.


Bad press seems to get a company's attention as well, at times (although it doesn't guarantee anything, of course), and Twitter (and sometimes Facebook) seem to get responses at times when a personal request hasn't--the PR factor as well?


----------



## SullyND

Every TiVo post on Facebook this week is filled with comments about preroll ads. If I weren’t already a customer it’d definitely give me pause.


----------



## krkaufman

SullyND said:


> Every TiVo post on Facebook this week is filled with comments about preroll ads. If I weren't already a customer it'd definitely give me pause.


TiVo would just paste an ad on you.


----------



## whoareyou_1999

If this keeps TIVO alive for many more years, ok. It is what it is. 

Here's my main problem with all of this. I pay for service which supposedly includes support.
I have 5 TIVO minis, not one of them have EVER worked properly for streaming. 

So where is the support / development to fix these issues? What prevents fixing these issues?

And now, more revenue for TIVO. Will any of that be devoted to improved support?

Now, I've moved on and simply purchased other streaming devices, but that shouldn't have been necessary. 

So, if TIVO is not going to properly support their streaming services, then shut them down. Take them off the boxes and save some money that way, before sticking on those darn commercials.


----------



## slowbiscuit

zubinh said:


> This just re-affirms my decision to stick with TE3. I would love to have auto-skip and even though we now have some confirmation you can opt out of pre roll ads on TE4, the other potential drawbacks are just too big.


You can easily have auto-skip on TE3 with kmttg.


----------



## BobCamp1

Mikeguy said:


> There is an irony for advertisers here. TiVo makes it possible for viewers to skip advertisers' regular broadcast commercials, thru ff, 30-second skip, SkipMode, and now AutoSkip. To try to get viewers to watch their commercials, the advertisers then have to pay TiVo separately to run the ads as pre-rolls (which, although they can be ff'ed or skipped thru, can't be AutoSkipped through). Kinda genius.


Just wait until they insert them during the commercial breaks. DirecTV and Verizon already do this. And I'm pretty sure auto-skip won't skip Rovi's ads.

I'm just putting that out there because despite Amazon and Youtube already having pre-roll ads, and the fact that Rovi/Tivo has always managed to squeeze in ads anywhere they can, people are somehow shocked that Rovi would put pre-roll ads into their DVR.


----------



## slowbiscuit

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm not sure where you guys heard this, but to my knowledge we have no plans to block downgrades from TE4 to TE3. To be clear, this is only on boxes that are capable of supporting TE3. For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


Maybe because it would've been the next logical dumb move to force ads?


----------



## Mikeguy

BobCamp1 said:


> I'm just putting that out there because despite Amazon and Youtube already having pre-roll ads, and the fact that Rovi/Tivo has always managed to squeeze in ads anywhere they can, people are somehow shocked that Rovi would put pre-roll ads into their DVR.


Personally, I was, because it just seems like such an interruption (even though I never liked the pause ads, at least they were static and did not assault me with audio and moving video). So very un-TiVo Experience-like, especially as currently implemented technologically (with glitches and the like--not smooth).


----------



## cwoody222

BobCamp1 said:


> Just wait until they insert them during the commercial breaks. DirecTV and Verizon already do this. And I'm pretty sure auto-skip won't skip Rovi's ads.
> 
> I'm just putting that out there because despite Amazon and Youtube already having pre-roll ads, and the fact that Rovi/Tivo has always managed to squeeze in ads anywhere they can, people are somehow shocked that Rovi would put pre-roll ads into their DVR.


DirecTV and Verizon do what?

Their DVRs insert commercials on top of broadcast commercials within recordings?

Or they insert their own commercials into broadcasts?


----------



## astrohip

BobCamp1 said:


> Just wait until they insert them during the commercial breaks. *DirecTV *and Verizon already do this.


I am almost certain what DirecTV does is insert their own ads in spots where the local broadcaster gets an ad spot. So where Comcast might insert a local ad during a (for example) USA broadcast, DirecTV does the same thing. They never insert a new ad, or create an ad break, where one didn't already exist.



BobCamp1 said:


> I'm just putting that out there because despite Amazon and Youtube already having pre-roll ads, and the fact that Rovi/Tivo has always managed to squeeze in ads anywhere they can, people are somehow shocked that Rovi would put pre-roll ads into their DVR.


I think most people understand that a content creator/provider (Amazon, YouTube) has the right to do what they want. TiVo is simply a transmission medium/recorder, so inserting ads seems offensive to some. If someone takes a picture and shares it, they can watermark it. If Apple started watermarking pictures you take on an iPhone, you would be offended.


----------



## longrider

cwoody222 said:


> DirecTV and Verizon do what?
> 
> Their DVRs insert commercials on top of broadcast commercials within recordings?
> 
> Or they insert their own commercials into broadcasts?


What DirecTV and Verizon do, and for that matter ALL cable companies do is insert ads in spots called local avails. These are spots where a local commercial can be substituted for the national one. Cable has done this forever, the only thing unique is what DirecTV developed to store local spots on the DVR hard drive (in reserved space so it does NOT affect your available space) and play them during that spot. Non DVR customers still see the national commercial


----------



## Charles R

slowbiscuit said:


> You can easily have auto-skip on TE3 with kmttg.


No thanks... never liked the kludge.



BobCamp1 said:


> Just wait until they insert them during the commercial breaks.


If they _ever_ do I'll simply call (as now) and have them removed.


----------



## Joe3

barnabas1969 said:


> How can we start a campaign against Tivo?
> 
> I pay Tivo for service every month.
> 
> But now... I am forced to watch a COMMERCIAL before I can watch the RECORDED TV SHOWS that I recorded on my TIVO???
> 
> And... I recorded those shows from my CABLE COMPANY... AND MY CABLE COMPANY ***ALSO*** FORCES ME TO WATCH COMMERCIALS EVEN THOUGH I PAY TO RECEIVE THE CABLE CHANNELS???
> 
> Jesus! Where does it end?


Know a good law firm, class action suit.


blackngold75 said:


> If this generates some revenue and helps to keep TiVo alive, I can deal with having to skip pre-roll ads. It's only TV, after all.


 Let's all expect nothing better and get nothing better for our money. We all can be dragged into the Rovi loser philosophy together.


----------



## dianebrat

barnabas1969 said:


> How can we start a campaign against Tivo?
> Jesus! Where does it end?





Joe3 said:


> Know a good law firm, class action suit.


So what are you going to do with your $7.35?
I swear we need the equivalent to the Godwin rule that closes a thread for stupidity the minute the phrase "Class Action Suit" is uttered as a possible solution.

The one thing that has been very apparent is the behavior of TCF members, there are folks I've always respected as reasonable and level headed, and they're the same in this volatile thread, and the folks that do not have those traits have also behaved exactly as I'd expected.


----------



## JoeKustra

My cable feed inserts (I call it clobbers) the national feed of commercials with their own. Most popular is for "TiVo Experience". It only does this on basic cable, not rebroadcast channels.


----------



## chiguy50

blackngold75 said:


> If this generates some revenue and helps to keep TiVo alive, I can deal with having to skip pre-roll ads. *It's only TV, after all.*


I had to stop myself from reporting this post to the moderators as shockingly inappropriate.

Know your audience, sir!


----------



## BobCamp1

astrohip said:


> I think most people understand that a content creator/provider (Amazon, YouTube) has the right to do what they want. TiVo is simply a transmission medium/recorder, so inserting ads seems offensive to some. If someone takes a picture and shares it, they can watermark it. If Apple started watermarking pictures you take on an iPhone, you would be offended.


Why does a creator/provider get to do what they want with ads, but no one else does? Who invented that rule? No one did. Those ads weren't there before, then they were introduced. People didn't like them at first but they gradually got used to them. Now every Youtube video starts with one or two pre-roll ads and this is acceptable. Youtube is now even interrupting the videos to show ads. Eventually people will get used to that and it will become acceptable.

In reality, technology is the only thing that limits where ads can be placed (with the exception of tobacco). Rovi/Tivo showed ads since day one in 1999, first non-targeted on the home screen because that's all they could do. Then they put them on the pause bar, then in between channels in the guide, etc. Now they have the ability to put them where others have and people act surprised and like it's a sign of the Apocalypse.

Finally, my Moto G6 does occasionally show me notifications about other Moto products. Actually that phone is an Amazon phone so they show me ads too. Samsung phones show pop-up ads too. So this imaginary line that products can't insert their own ads has already been crossed by others.


----------



## Adam C.

BobCamp1 said:


> Why does a creator/provider get to do what they want with ads, but no one else does? Who invented that rule? No one did. Those ads weren't there before, then they were introduced. People didn't like them at first but they gradually got used to them. Now every Youtube video starts with one or two pre-roll ads and this is acceptable. Youtube is now even interrupting the videos to show ads. Eventually people will get used to that and it will become acceptable.
> 
> In reality, technology is the only thing that limits where ads can be placed (with the exception of tobacco). Rovi/Tivo showed ads since day one in 1999, first non-targeted on the home screen because that's all they could do. Then they put them on the pause bar, then in between channels in the guide, etc. Now they have the ability to put them where others have and people act surprised and like it's a sign of the Apocalypse.
> 
> Finally, my Moto G6 does occasionally show me notifications about other Moto products. Actually that phone is an Amazon phone so they show me ads too. Samsung phones show pop-up ads too. So this imaginary line that products can't insert their own ads has already been crossed by others.


I have never heard of these pop up ads on Samsung phones, but Samsung is notorious for loading up all their devices with bloatware, so this doesn't surprise me, and it's the main reason I don't buy Samsung devices. Regarding Youtube, there are no ads on Youtube if you subscribe to Google Play Music or Youtube Music (which I do), so at least that option is out there for people that don't want to put up with ads.


----------



## tommage1

For me a Tivo is a DVR. I use it to record and watch TV shows/movies. Anything else, features, apps, streaming is a bonus. I am not getting the ads yet but for me they will most likely be terrible. And I wonder being on very slow DSL how long they will take to load.............

But Tivo is probably in trouble. Thinking of the DVR part of the Tivo (which for me is what a Tivo IS), between the phasing out of cable cards and possible ATSC 3 the DVR part is becoming obsolete. So they are probably trying to figure out how to survive. Corporations are in it for the money, of course. But there is some difference between trying to survive and r*ping customers for every penny like the cable cos and many other companies. IMO at least. So will see what happens here.

Tivo actually has a billion dollar market cap. Though there are a lot of members here at TC I'm guessing the majority of their customers are not TC members. Allowing current customers to stop the ads is good. But going forward new customers will know nothing else, just TE4 and ads. They are probably counting on that. They want to keep TC members happy I think. And other non TC members who start getting ads and either call Tivo or start researching the net. But long run they want to try to stay in business, doing whatever it takes to survive. Will lose some customers, others will put up with it, counting a lot on new customers who will know nothing different. Will see how it develops.......................


----------



## cwoody222

longrider said:


> What DirecTV and Verizon do, and for that matter ALL cable companies do is insert ads in spots called local avails. These are spots where a local commercial can be substituted for the national one. Cable has done this forever, the only thing unique is what DirecTV developed to store local spots on the DVR hard drive (in reserved space so it does NOT affect your available space) and play them during that spot. Non DVR customers still see the national commercial


Thanks. I'm aware of local avails but didn't know DTV stored them locally.


----------



## slice1900

Adam C. said:


> I have never heard of these pop up ads on Samsung phones, but Samsung is notorious for loading up all their devices with bloatware, so this doesn't surprise me, and it's the main reason I don't buy Samsung devices. Regarding Youtube, there are no ads on Youtube if you subscribe to Google Play Music or Youtube Music (which I do), so at least that option is out there for people that don't want to put up with ads.


I never see ads on Youtube on my PC, probably because I run Linux. I guess the 1-2% of who do are too small of an audience to bother "supporting". I do see them sometimes watching Youtube videos (via Safari) on my iPhone, so I know they exist but I'm blissfully unaware of them on my PC


----------



## Charles R

slice1900 said:


> I never see ads on Youtube on my PC, probably because I run Linux.


I run several distros and with Chrome and FireFox YouTube's ad activity is the same as Windows...


----------



## Joe3

dianebrat said:


> So what are you going to do with your $7.35?
> I swear we need the equivalent to the Godwin rule that closes a thread for stupidity the minute the phrase "Class Action Suit" is uttered as a possible solution.
> 
> The one thing that has been very apparent is the behavior of TCF members, there are folks I've always respected as reasonable and level headed, and they're the same in this volatile thread, and the folks that do not have those traits have also behaved exactly as I'd expected.


Very I insulting making the $7.37 crack, so insultingly personal. Suggesting a class action suit would have no merit and would be useless and worthless, perhaps you're some kind of expert on class action law or have a real strong relationship and connection to TiVo. Perhaps you've been sued, I don't know. But expect nothing and get nothing is not how most healthy people live. This is why there are many laws that protect the average citizen, the average buyer. This why when someone asks and a large group feels they've been wronged or mislead asking what can be done, a legal solution is often looked into because it works for many people on principle.

Although, I personally believe that forcing ads down your throats is not illegal. I think a good law firm might warrant a solution if they see something of a pattern. I think for many here who not directly connected to Rovi/Tivo , who feel wronged, this maybe the best solution if they know a good law firm to have them look at it. What could it hurt, really. No need to go nuclear and for some reason   Hmmm, take it personally


----------



## Mikeguy

BobCamp1 said:


> Eventually people will get used to that and it will become acceptable.


For me, I'm not sure it's "acceptable," it's simply the reality and I don't have a choice. Although I guess I_ may_ be finding it acceptable, as it's the tradeoff for having free content (e.g. the bonanza of free OTA television--quite amazing, when you think of it). Likewise for TiVo, if it's needed for survival and thriving; but for heaven's sake, get rid of the current kerchung and disfunctional aspects--I don't mean to be flip, but it just interferes with the TiVo Experience.


----------



## Joe3

djones18 said:


> So recommending we all march on TiVo HQ over pre-roll adverts and TiVo's attempt to subvert our freedom of choice might not be a level headed recommendation? Too bad, I don't have much to do since leaving the Area 51 'Raid' last week.
> 
> E.T.


So, shouldn't you find another country to live in ?


----------



## Donbadabon

Just got an ad for the first time on my OTA Bolt Vox 500GB. I was wondering if they would hit all devices, cable and OTA.

Sent an e-mail to support asking them to remove the ads.


----------



## zubinh

OK So TE3 wont get pre-roll ads and those with TE4 can get rid of em with a phone call. Case closed. Everyone got their panties in a bunch over nothing.


----------



## exdishguy

zubinh said:


> OK So TE3 wont get pre-roll ads and those with TE4 can get rid of em with a phone call. Case closed. Everyone got their panties in a bunch over nothing.


Did anyone get "rid of em" yet by calling? I am curious to know what that means once the opt-out takes affect? Do we still see blue spinning wheels or any delay to start playback? Or do they push a firmware drop to us that has pre-roll gutted from it?


----------



## dianebrat

Joe3 said:


> Very I insulting making the $7.37 crack, so insultingly personal. Suggesting a class action suit would have no merit and would be useless and worthless, perhaps you're some kind of expert on class action law or have a real strong relationship and connection to TiVo. Perhaps you've been sued, I don't know. But expect nothing and get nothing is not how most healthy people live. This is why there are many laws that protect the average citizen, the average buyer. This why when someone asks and a large group feels they've been wronged or mislead asking what can be done, a legal solution is often looked into because it works for many people on principle.


Do you really think a Class Action Suit benefits anyone other than the lawyers? and ok, maybe I got $13 from the Sony PS3 class action, and think of all the people who amusingly thought they could get money from the Equifax class action only to find out they'll get nothing.

Be as personally insulted as you want, but class action suits in easily 98% of all cases result in mere pennies to those affected and Tivos actions are nowhere near damaging to anyone fiscally, please go on, show me actual damage.


----------



## JackMcC

exdishguy said:


> Did anyone get "rid of em" yet by calling?


Tivo Ted stated that it depends upon your years of service and payment status.

I've read at least two people here who've been customers since 2002 (explicitly stated) and sometime earlier than 2007 (earliest posting in this forum) who've had the ads removed upon request.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## exdishguy

JackMcC said:


> Tivo Ted stated that it depends upon your years of service and payment status.
> 
> I've read at least two people here who've been customers since 2002 (explicitly stated) and sometime earlier than 2007 (earliest posting in this forum) who've had the ads removed upon request.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Yup, got that part. I called and they told me they'd remove me (but I already back-rev that unit to TE3). I'm just wondering if anyone has had it successfully removed and if they still see blue spinning wheels, etc.


----------



## Charles R

exdishguy said:


> I'm just wondering if anyone has had it successfully removed and if they still see blue spinning wheels, etc.


One person stated it was "back to normal"... video started right away.


----------



## BobCamp1

Mikeguy said:


> Likewise for TiVo, if it's needed for survival and thriving; but for heaven's sake, get rid of the current kerchung and disfunctional aspects--I don't mean to be flip, but it just interferes with the TiVo Experience.


Well, like all new Tivo features, it's initially dysfunctional and very rough around the edges. So that's already consistent with the Tivo experience.


----------



## BobCamp1

dianebrat said:


> Do you really think a Class Action Suit benefits anyone other than the lawyers?


Yes, it benefits future customers by preventing the company (and others like it) from doing that in the future. It might, for example, deter Comcast from adding pre-roll ads to their DVR or Tivo from adding ads in the middle of the recording. But you're right when you say that it won't benefit _existing_ customers.


----------



## Donbadabon

Donbadabon said:


> Just got an ad for the first time on my OTA Bolt Vox 500GB. I was wondering if they would hit all devices, cable and OTA.
> Sent an e-mail to support asking them to remove the ads.


And got a reply back just 2 hours later apologizing, and to give them 72 hours for the removal of the advertisements to take effect.


----------



## Joe3

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, it benefits future customers by preventing the company (and others like it) from doing that in the future. It might, for example, deter Comcast from adding pre-roll ads to their DVR or Tivo from adding ads in the middle of the recording. But you're right when you say that it won't benefit _existing_ customers.


Class action suit over the Ads, yes, it probably won't benefit existing customers. However, there is a repeated pattern of behavior of TiVo ever since it was bought by Rovi that hasn't been typical of a tech company. Rovi/TiVo pattern of behavior has been that of predator company that raided TiVo. We did not knowingly invest in such a company.


----------



## exdishguy

Joe3 said:


> Class action suit over the Ads, yes, it probably won't benefit existing customers. However, there is a repeated pattern of behavior of TiVo ever since it was bought by Rovi that hasn't been typical of a tech company. Rovi/TiVo pattern of behavior has been that of predator company that raided TiVo. We did not knowingly invest in such a company.


I'm sorry Joe, but on what grounds do you think we have standing and what laws/regulations could they possibly be violating? Not trying to pick a fight - I am seriously interested. You've been doing battle for a few pages now and I admit I've lost track of this. My apologies for being lazy. Can you recap please?


----------



## Mikeguy

dianebrat said:


> . . . and Tivos actions are nowhere near damaging to anyone fiscally, please go on, show me actual damage.


Does pain and suffering/emotional distress count?  (Kidding!)


----------



## JackMcC

It'll be interesting to see if Tivo will allow any of the long time Tivo customers to opt out of the roll-on ads when they upgrade to a Tivo Edge in the near future. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## astrohip

Joe3 said:


> Rovi/TiVo pattern of behavior has been that of predator company that raided TiVo. We did not knowingly *invest *in such a company.


Unless you bought stock in Rovi/TiVo, you didn't invest at all. Buying a product doesn't make you an investor, unless you want to use a very colloquial version of the word. You are a customer, a client, a patron, whatever word you want. You are not an investor.

I've been reading this thread, mainly to keep up with the logistics of this new _feature_. How it works, how to stop it, will it come to my Roamio, etc. But the whiners are winning. Your non-stop, incessant griping is sidetracking this thread. There will be no class action suit. TiVo hasn't committed a crime. Ninety percent of us just want to know what's going on, and keep up with news about it. And yes, perhaps voice our unhappiness about it. But there is a small handful of you completely hijacking this thread with non-stop, non-productive carping. Yes, you have that right, but all it does it drive away any of us that might have meaningful observations (or not!), just to get away from the complaining.

I agree with whoever above said lock the thread once the phrase class action suit is uttered. Better yet, ban the poster for 24 hours.


----------



## KevTech

So here is what I found out during a long chat with Tivo.

If you are on TE3 (rep called it classic TE3 software) you will not have ads so no need to call.

If you are on TE3 and go to TE4 do not call until you start seeing ads as they can not put in an opt out request until you are seeing ads.

If you are already on TE4 do not call until you start seeing ads as once again they can do nothing until you are actually seeing the ads.


----------



## schatham

never mind.


----------



## Joe3

exdishguy said:


> I'm sorry Joe, but on what grounds do you think we have standing and what laws/regulations could they possibly be violating? Not trying to pick a fight - I am seriously interested. You've been doing battle for a few pages now and I admit I've lost track of this. My apologies for being lazy. Can you recap please?


Yes, I have been defending the class action suit as a possible solution to corporations that go too far.

Those kind of cases and the way they are put together is beyond my resumes, but not beyond my responsibility where I feel there has been wrong doing.

I think a law firm that practices and has some experience with class action law suits should take a long look at the Rovi/TiVo history. If only to see if there is a pattern of behavior that has misrepresented this new Rovi/TiVo company as being a tech company when they were never more a corporate raider who feeds on the carcasses of smaller companies. Could certain resent behavior show and intent to misrepresented themselves to consumers going back to Rovi's takeover. Is Rovi just a miserable little corporate lech, poaching the TiVo brand?

It's not entirely improbable.

Is there enough questions of behavior to prove intent to misrepresent? Possibly. They don't really act like a tech company. They act like draconian blood suckers with no technology solutions to their problems. They don't solve problems like a tech company if they wind up solving them at all. System Designers, you could have fooled me and maybe they have just fooled us. It's not impossible that a company that takes one of its strongest pillars, no ads, and Chews through it like a bunch of insect termites and acts like it's a great business plan is beyond ever lying or misrepresentation.

What's to lose as the customer here? Why not see if in a class action suit by a good law firm if they can connect some dots that could led to a Courtroom and judge seeing a pattern of misrepresentation, which I believe might lead to fraud.

Who knows, if you don't do something, you'll never really know what would happen if you ever did


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Yes, I have been defending the class action suit as a possible solution to corporations that go too far.
> 
> Those kind of cases and the way they are put together is beyond my resumes, but not beyond my responsibility where I feel there has been wrong doing.
> 
> I think a law firm that practices and has some experience with class action law suits should take a long look at the Rovi/TiVo history. If only to see if there is a pattern of behavior that has misrepresented this new Rovi/TiVo company as being a tech company when they were never more a corporate raider who feeds on the carcasses of smaller companies. Could certain resent behavior show and intent to misrepresented themselves to consumers going back to Rovi's takeover. Is Rovi just a miserable little corporate lech, poaching the TiVo brand?
> 
> It's not entirely improbable.
> 
> Is there enough questions of behavior to prove intent to misrepresent? Possibly. They don't really act like a tech company. They act like draconian blood suckers with no technology solutions to their problems. They don't solve problems like a tech company if they wind up solving them at all. System Designers, you could have fooled me and maybe they have just fooled us. It's not impossible that a company that takes one of its strongest pillars, no ads, and Chews through it like a bunch of insect termites and acts like it's a great business plan is beyond ever lying or misrepresentation.
> 
> What's to lose as the customer here? Why not see if in a class action suit by a good law firm if they can connect some dots that could led to a Courtroom and judge seeing a pattern of misrepresentation, which I believe might lead to fraud.
> 
> Who knows, if you don't do something, you'll never really know what would happen if you ever did


A good law firm will ask, as a threshold matter, what legal rights has TiVo breached, including not to put ads in. That, then, will lead to the various TiVo user agreements, in which TiVo asserts the right to make unilateral changes. And then that will lead, assuming that the various agreements are deemed facially applicable between TiVo and the consumer, to (from what you've said earlier) whether those agreements are unenforceable for some reason. Find legal support for that question and you start to convince me of even a chance of a possibility (simply as a legal exercise). Of course, a judge and a good law firm will realize that finding in favor of the plaintiff on this question could affect virtually every single consumer product purchase.

That good law firm also will wonder, before agreeing to take the case to begin with, how it is going to get paid, in the absence of monetary damages harm to the plaintiff or plaintiff class (absent the law firm agreeing to take the case on as a pro bono matter).


----------



## Joe3

astrohip said:


> Unless you bought stock in Rovi/TiVo, you didn't invest at all. Buying a product doesn't make you an investor, unless you want to use a very colloquial version of the word. You are a customer, a client, a patron, whatever word you want. You are not an investor.
> 
> I've been reading this thread, mainly to keep up with the logistics of this new _feature_. How it works, how to stop it, will it come to my Roamio, etc. But the whiners are winning. Your non-stop, incessant griping is sidetracking this thread. There will be no class action suit. TiVo hasn't committed a crime. Ninety percent of us just want to know what's going on, and keep up with news about it. And yes, perhaps voice our unhappiness about it. But there is a small handful of you completely hijacking this thread with non-stop, non-productive carping. Yes, you have that right, but all it does it drive away any of us that might have meaningful observations (or not!), just to get away from the complaining.
> 
> I agree with whoever above said lock the thread once the phrase class action suit is uttered. Better yet, ban the poster for 24 hours.


People also seek solutions here. But it takes a bully to a know and defend a bully and not hear solutions or silence them. To hide behind the tyrannical idea of low expectations and keeping people powerless and happy with just good enough.


----------



## jlb

SullyND said:


> Every TiVo post on Facebook this week is filled with comments about preroll ads. If I weren't already a customer it'd definitely give me pause.


I see what you did there..... well played! Oh shoot I just did it too... LOLO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## astrohip

Joe3 said:


> It's not entirely improbable.


Yes. It is entirely improbable. And your continued discussion of it is hijacking a useful thread.


----------



## Fofer

mattyro7878 said:


> I rolled back and lasted less than a day. The smaller, less accurate progress bar, the loss of video when watching a recording and going to Tivo Central, and no skip mode were some of the reasons. I honestly enjoy TE4 more.


 Me too. I found TE3 so ugly and clunky, and the fact that it still has SDUI elements was kind of pathetic. And TE4 feels more streamlined and elegant. Auto com skip is great but the new feature I really wouldn't be able to give up is CEC remote control. At least with my setup, that made things a lot easier and more straightforward.

When and if I see one of these new pre-roll ads on my lifetime Roamio or my Minis, I will be calling TiVo to have them turn them off. I, too, have had TiVo in my home since their beginning, and we always used to argue about "the slippery slope" of them inserting ads, like on the pause screen. Adding a video commercial to the front of recorded shows strikes me as vastly worse than that, whether we can skip them or not. Because it's only a matter of time then before they insert more of these video ads, or make the unskippable.

It's just a tacky, sleazy move on their part, I'm kind of disgusted by it, even just in principle.


----------



## Bigg

krkaufman said:


> I could see TiVo offering the same "feature" to MSO's, though, to allow them to insert their own ads. The ad catalog would be the MSO's, but TiVo would still get their taste.


Or TiVo does the ads and the MSO gets a cut of the action.


----------



## Joe3

Just an intellectual exercise on a possible solution to the Rovi/TiVo bull ****.



Mikeguy said:


> That good law firm also will wonder, before agreeing to take the case to begin with, how it is going to get paid, in the absence of monetary damages harm to the plaintiff or plaintiff class (absent the law firm agreeing to take the case on as a pro bono matter).


No, they more than likely would get paid when they win the case that proved Rovi misrepresented their intentions from being when they purchased TiVo.



Mikeguy said:


> Of course, a judge and a good law firm will realize that finding in favor of the plaintiff on this question could affect virtually every single consumer product purchase.
> ).


Not necessarily, could be a discovery of a pattern of behavior that is unique to Rovi, before and after comparison of TiVo.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe, a plaintiff has to have standing to sue, generally meaning, a direct, personal harm from the challenged action; there also needs to be a legal obligation between the parties, that was breached. Thus, I can't sue as a consumer, e.g., TiVo (or Hasbro or AT&T) for the business directions they take, absent my being directly harmed by them_ and_ the companies having a legal obligation to me. I just don't see the latter here (and with the former being problematic as well), especially in the face of the user agreements and absent their somehow being held not to be enforceable.

I can guarantee you, a law firm will be concerned about how it is going to be paid. This especially is the case in non-monetary damages cases, where the law firm would have to count on the good graces of the judge in determining the social or other good that the law firm has done, assuming that the law being applied provides for the award of attorneys' fees to begin with.


----------



## tenthplanet

Class action just make the ambulance chasers rich and those they sue poorer. Basically the defendant gets screwed too. Class action should have been abolished long ago.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Joe, a plaintiff has to have standing to sue, generally meaning, a direct, personal harm from the challenged action; there also needs to be a legal obligation between the parties, that was breached. Thus, I can't sue as a consumer, e.g., TiVo (or Hasbro or AT&T) for the business directions they take, absent my being directly harmed by them_ and_ the companies having a legal obligation to me. I just don't see the latter here (and with the former being problematic as well), especially in the face of the user agreements and absent their somehow being held not to be enforceable.
> 
> I can guarantee you, a law firm will be concerned about how it is going to be paid. This especially is the case in non-monetary damages cases, where the law firm would have to count on the good graces of the judge in determining the social or other good that the law firm has done, assuming that the law being applied provides for the award of attorneys' fees to begin with.


That would mean in a situation where there is a proven pattern of misrepresentation by a company, the plaintiff would have no standing to sue. Doesn't really seem logically possible. That's why I say no one really knows, until you ask firms that do this legation, and even get more than one opinion.

Maybe you're thinking of Tort Law.


----------



## mattack

astrohip said:


> Unless you bought stock in Rovi/TiVo, you didn't invest at all.


I'm down almost 60% from my 2006 investment.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Joe3 said:


> Yes, I have been defending the class action suit as a possible solution to corporations that go too far.
> 
> Those kind of cases and the way they are put together is beyond my resumes, but not beyond my responsibility where I feel there has been wrong doing.
> 
> I think a law firm that practices and has some experience with class action law suits should take a long look at the Rovi/TiVo history. If only to see if there is a pattern of behavior that has misrepresented this new Rovi/TiVo company as being a tech company when they were never more a corporate raider who feeds on the carcasses of smaller companies. Could certain resent behavior show and intent to misrepresented themselves to consumers going back to Rovi's takeover. Is Rovi just a miserable little corporate lech, poaching the TiVo brand?
> 
> It's not entirely improbable.
> 
> Is there enough questions of behavior to prove intent to misrepresent? Possibly. They don't really act like a tech company. They act like draconian blood suckers with no technology solutions to their problems. They don't solve problems like a tech company if they wind up solving them at all. System Designers, you could have fooled me and maybe they have just fooled us. It's not impossible that a company that takes one of its strongest pillars, no ads, and Chews through it like a bunch of insect termites and acts like it's a great business plan is beyond ever lying or misrepresentation.
> 
> What's to lose as the customer here? Why not see if in a class action suit by a good law firm if they can connect some dots that could led to a Courtroom and judge seeing a pattern of misrepresentation, which I believe might lead to fraud.
> 
> Who knows, if you don't do something, you'll never really know what would happen if you ever did


Really not sure what kind of company Rovi is matters, they could just be a corporate raider and it wouldn't change anything. Or they could be a massive conglomerate. Moot point. Why don't you call a law firm and see? If your case has merit they'll take it. I'm dead serious.


----------



## chrishicks

Is there a phone number I can call to have all the lawsuit talk removed from my account because those posts are completely ruining my Tivo Community Experience.

Seriously though, not to be a turd in the punch bowl but could that be split off into another thread and leave this one just for the meltdown/approval of ads?


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> That would mean in a situation where there is a proven pattern of misrepresentation by a company, the plaintiff would have no standing to sue. Doesn't really seem logically possible. That's why I say no one really knows, until you ask firms that do this legation, and even get more than one opinion.
> 
> Maybe your thinking of Tort Law.


It really turns on,_ who_ has standing to sue, and_ for what_. E.g. a shareholder can sue for a company's misrepresentations concerning the company, as that potentially affects the shareholder's ownership of the company and governance rights; but the shareholder couldn't sue on the company's breach of a contract with a consumer (at least, not directly--I wonder if a corporate malfeasance claim could be brought).

(But probably more than enough law for this thread; I apologize to other readers for the detour.)


----------



## exdishguy

Mikeguy said:


> It really turns on,_ who_ has standing to sue, and_ for what_. E.g. a shareholder can sue for a company's misrepresentations concerning the company, as that potentially affects the shareholder's ownership of the company and governance rights; but the shareholder couldn't sue on the company's breach of a contract with a consumer (at least, not directly--I wonder if a corporate malfeasance claim could be brought).
> 
> (But probably more than enough law for this thread; I apologize to other readers for the detour.)


Actually I probably stoked this back up because I was too lazy to read through all the post about class action lawsuits. Joe, sorry dude - I am upset too but there are really no grounds for a lawsuit here. Nada. Even ambulance chasers don't take ALL cases - they only take the ones they know they'll win. I can't imagine any credible law firm engaging in a lawsuit and wasting time and money on this. There is nothing to sue over. I'm pissed that I have spent nothing short of $8k+ over 18+ years buying Tivo gear - always with Lifetime subscriptions - but the EULAs are clear. We have no standing as customers - heck, even if you're a shareholder you probably won't have standing.

Back to the pre-roll ads. I would love to hear more success stories from those that called customer service to opt out. Is it back to the way it performed pre pre-roll....or shall we not call it, PPR?


----------



## shannon94188

exdishguy said:


> Did anyone get "rid of em" yet by calling? I am curious to know what that means once the opt-out takes affect? Do we still see blue spinning wheels or any delay to start playback? Or do they push a firmware drop to us that has pre-roll gutted from it?


Hi there! I got rid of the ads by calling on Saturday. No more blue spinning wheel and programs start playing instantly. I did not need to reboot my box, but maybe it did overnight without my involvement. Lifetime on this Bolt box and been a TiVo owner since 2004 (Toshiba DVD TiVo!)


----------



## dswallow

Considering the near-universal disdain for these pre-roll ads that we see in comments here and on Twitter, I suspect the most effective approach, at least if TiVo weren't letting you just opt out of them by calling, is to organize an active campaign against the advertisers who purchase slots on these pre-roll ads. A visible, vocal, active campaign against them can do wonders with enough participation. But other than making an extremely adverse choice to do this at all, I don't think it has yet reached the point where that is the appropriate way to address this.


----------



## exdishguy

shannon94188 said:


> Hi there! I got rid of the ads by calling on Saturday. No more blue spinning wheel and programs start playing instantly. I did not need to reboot my box, but maybe it did overnight without my involvement. Lifetime on this Bolt box and been a TiVo owner since 2004 (Toshiba DVD TiVo!)


That is awesome news! Thank for letting us know. If you don't mind me asking one more favor - could you please check System Info and tell me the software version in its entirety? Just curious. Thx


----------



## Davelnlr_

wdwms said:


> Can confirm pre-roll ads have been removed from my system after calling Tivo on Sunday.. HOWEVER, the guide ads are stil there. Will call them today. These are extremely annoying, i have memory of where specific channels are, now everything is all dorked up.


Guide ads were one of the reasons I dumped DirecTv and their overpriced DVR/HD/Multiroom package.


----------



## MikeLobby

Wow 50 pages! I last checked the other day and it was only 30! I came back to try and make it 51...

I have really enjoyed my tivos over the years in that they just work and work well. My tivos (now using a Bolt + Mini and a Premiere) are pretty deeply intertwined in my home entertainment system (I even bought a Middle Atlantic custom shelf for the Premiere a year ago) so I won't be removing them just yet. But if ads start showing up in TE3, I will be infuriated. I will use all technical means available to block them. If ads throughout the UI are indeed the future, I will not purchase any new tivo hardware and advise others to do the same.

As for alternatives, i feel the HD homerun based solutions are cool DIY projects, but too spendy in terms of hardware & user tweaking required on top of still needing a subscription of some sort for guide data. Maybe I'll look into Channelmaster DVRs or similar one box solutions. If I find nothing useful, I guess I will eventually just forget about DVRing broadcast TV.


----------



## Robert Saunders

My reason for buying Tivo and paying a monthly service fee was to have a better TV experience than Comcast. Clearly it looks like I will be cancelling my Tivo account and finally use the Comcast STB that was sent to me free with my service. The last thing I am interested in doing is being made to watch commercials, even though their is a bypass, for a product that I pay a monthly service fee. This new change in the Tivo business model has taken the premium quality view that I have had regarding the Tivo product.
My apologies, I didn't read all of the other posts on the topic. I am sure that what I have said has been repeated over-and-over again, so thank you for letting me vent.


----------



## opfreak

exdishguy said:


> Actually I probably stoked this back up because I was too lazy to read through all the post about class action lawsuits. Joe, sorry dude - I am upset too but there are really no grounds for a lawsuit here. Nada. Even ambulance chasers don't take ALL cases - they only take the ones they know they'll win. I can't imagine any credible law firm engaging in a lawsuit and wasting time and money on this. There is nothing to sue over. I'm pissed that I have spent nothing short of $8k+ over 18+ years buying Tivo gear - always with Lifetime subscriptions - but the EULAs are clear. We have no standing as customers - heck, even if you're a shareholder you probably won't have standing.
> 
> Back to the pre-roll ads. I would love to hear more success stories from those that called customer service to opt out. Is it back to the way it performed pre pre-roll....or shall we not call it, PPR?


So you and the other Pro-Tivo Pro-Ad crowd are all lawyers that are 100% sure theres nothing to sue for?
Is there a Tivo check in your inbox to pay for all the cover you are giving them?


----------



## John7777

We have a new Bolt OTA, and as of yet no ads. Maybe if every time there was an ad, we all notify the advertiser, that we will be boycotting the product. They may decide to pull the ad from TIVO. It may not get rid of them all but cut down on the amount. We're still too dependent on TIVO to let this be a deal breaker for us. Plus, when you've already purchased the lifetime, there isn't much leverage to say we're leaving. Sorry if somebody suggested this already, but I didn't want to go through all the posts.


----------



## V7Goose

BobCamp1 said:


> Yes, it benefits future customers by preventing the company (and others like it) from doing that in the future. It might, for example, deter Comcast from adding pre-roll ads to their DVR or Tivo from adding ads in the middle of the recording. But you're right when you say that it won't benefit _existing_ customers.


No, it DOES benefit ALL customers, including the current ones, if it causes a company to change its behavior and stop doing either illegal or unethical things. A small cash payout to each customer is meaningless, but when all those small pieces of fortune are aggregated together, it WILL cause a losing company and others watching to change behavior.

I am incensed by what Rovi is doing to existing customers in this case, but I do not know if it qualifies for a lawsuit. HOWEVER, if a knowledgeable attorney thinks it does, and is willing to work the case for a percentage of any future judgement (proves he thinks it is a valid case), then I am Absolutely ALL FOR a class action suit.

The idea presented here by some that "It is OK if Rovi screws me if it keeps TiVo in business" is a completely UNACCEPTABLE approach to life in my option. I certainly will miss TiVo (the OLD TiVo - the one that is already gone), but I doubt that I will miss Rovi one bit. They will just serve as another history lesson about what happens to stupid companies.


----------



## krkaufman

chrishicks said:


> Is there a phone number I can call to have all the lawsuit talk removed from my account because those posts are completely ruining my Tivo Community Experience.
> 
> Seriously though, not to be a turd in the punch bowl but could that be split off into another thread and leave this one just for the meltdown/approval of ads?


So that'd be a "no," I guess.


----------



## exdishguy

opfreak said:


> So you and the other Pro-Tivo Pro-Ad crowd are all lawyers that are 100% sure theres nothing to sue for?
> Is there a Tivo check in your inbox to pay for all the cover you are giving them?


Pro-Tivo? Nope. Pro protecting my investment in their products? Yup.

Pro-Ad? Nope. You might want to read many of my other posts before spewing such baseless drivel. Cliff Notes: I backrevved to TE3 because I hate the pre-roll ads.

100% sure? I'm talking about probabilities and likelihoods and you're talking absolutes. Of course I'm not 100% certain. This is America after all whereby we can sue for anything. Heck, maybe I'll sue you for not reading all of my posts and being a more informed TCF poster? 

A check in my inbox from Tivo? Well now wouldn't that be nice. I hope its in the amount of an even $5,000 in the form of a refund check.

Cover up? Good lord...not even sure how to unpack that one. I'll err on the side of causing you a few nights' sleep and admit to being part of a vast Tivo conspiracy to voice my deep displeasure with pre-roll ads, loss of Live Guide, love of TE3, and to troll their customers that like TE4, thereby undermining their strategic trajectory and market acceptance of that strategy.


----------



## pfiagra

Please stop debating about class action lawsuits. If you are upset and want to file one, go do something about it. Contact a lawyer and when you find one that will take your case, come back here to let those interested know about it.

Endless debate about contract and consumer law by non-lawyers on these boards gives me a headache.

Also, if you’ve already posted how upset you are with this decision by TiVo, the internet has recorded it and will keep it out there for everyone to see. There’s no need to have multiple posts from you about your first world problems.


----------



## BobCamp1

V7Goose said:


> No, it DOES benefit ALL customers, including the current ones, if it causes a company to change its behavior and stop doing either illegal or unethical things. A small cash payout to each customer is meaningless, but when all those small pieces of fortune are aggregated together, it WILL cause a losing company and others watching to change behavior.
> 
> I am incensed by what Rovi is doing to existing customers in this case, but I do not know if it qualifies for a lawsuit. HOWEVER, if a knowledgeable attorney thinks it does, and is willing to work the case for a percentage of any future judgement (proves he thinks it is a valid case), then I am Absolutely ALL FOR a class action suit.
> 
> The idea presented here by some that "It is OK if Rovi screws me if it keeps TiVo in business" is a completely UNACCEPTABLE approach to life in my option. I certainly will miss TiVo (the OLD TiVo - the one that is already gone), but I doubt that I will miss Rovi one bit. They will just serve as another history lesson about what happens to stupid companies.


1. By the time the lawsuit is settled, existing customers are ex-customers. Or the amount is so trivial that nobody cares about it anymore. Or the amount they have to pay doesn't exceed the profit the company made doing the bad activity. I've been involved in class action lawsuits -- I got some pocket change for buying my wife's engagement ring 20 years ago, and yet there's still a monopoly in the diamond market. I got $10 back for buying a DVD-ROM 10 years ago when there was collusion to jack up the prices, but DVD-ROM prices are still the same. I got a small amount of money when DirecTV removed too many channels from my package, but those channels never came back and my monthly rate didn't drop.

2. Rovi is letting existing customers contact technical support and opt out of the ads for free. I don't see how that's a large enough burden to justify a lawsuit. Not all of their customers are affected, including you and me because we're on TE3, so we couldn't join the lawsuit. New customers aren't going to be eligible because they can return the DVR within 30 days if they don't like it.

3. I agree that "It is OK if Rovi screws me if it keeps TiVo in business" is bad, but everybody has and will sign up for that when they buy the service. You will get the good with the bad, and if you don't like it don't buy the service. Actually, existing customers can get rid of the bad with one phone call and just keep the good. And this is not new behavior for Tivo or Rovi -- they've put ads in places others haven't before and I assume they will continue to do so.

It sounded really bad at first, but then the more the details came out the less upset I was about it. I was never surprised about it, in fact I wondered last spring if they would do it once I saw YouTube do it. I'm not happy about it, but it's not the end of the world.

And that's all I'm going to say about a lawsuit.


----------



## BobCamp1

John7777 said:


> We have a new Bolt OTA, and as of yet no ads. Maybe if every time there was an ad, we all notify the advertiser, that we will be boycotting the product.


Do Boycotts Work? (Ep. 234) - Freakonomics


----------



## JoeKustra

John7777 said:


> We have a new Bolt OTA, and as of yet no ads. Maybe if every time there was an ad, we all notify the advertiser, that we will be boycotting the product.


Sounds like a good project for FaceBook. Please feel free to go there and try it.


----------



## mulscully

I am truly saddened by what Tivo is doing. I have been a loyal Tivo customer since the early DirecTv Tivo days and even left DirecTv because of their split with Tivo. Unfortunately I do not use any of the streaming capabilities of the Tivo because in my experience all the apps are worst then the ones built into the Smart TVs. I love using the Tivo for OnePasses for my cable but I have the distinct feeling from reading through this thread that my customer desires/needs are getting too misaligned with what Tivo is delivering and it is approaching the breaking point. I am not dropping them yet. But I feel that day is coming real soon. There are more and more streaming services and we find ourselves watching more of them and less cable. 

Lou


----------



## Joe3

Fight what's wrong or bend over. I rather fight than catch a social transmitted disease of except nothing and get nothing. 

On one hand a few say they are tired hearing the solutions, one the other hand they want to talk about the problem only until it is an acceptable problem, but both their hands are flat and firmly planted on the floor.


----------



## Mikeguy

opfreak said:


> So you and the other Pro-Tivo Pro-Ad crowd are all lawyers that are 100% sure theres nothing to sue for?
> Is there a Tivo check in your inbox to pay for all the cover you are giving them?


With apologies to others for yet further discussion here (please just skip this over), but:

1. That's an unfair post: it's not a bias to express an impartial judgment based on the evaluation of the facts as they exist (the fact that you may not like that judgment does not establish bias)--it's facing reality. 2. The TiVo user agreements say that TiVo may change its service how it wants and when it wants--that seems to be a barrier to a user lawsuit over not liking how TiVo changes its service how it wants and when it wants.* But if you have a logical position and analysis otherwise, please do tell (in a separate thread).

* I_ can_ see how this barrier could be overcome in some more extreme circumstances--such as, if TiVo were to change its service simply to eliminate it, or most of its functionality. But a judge likely would find, in that circumstance, that TiVo was not acting in the spirit and intent of the user agreement, but to defeat it. Adding pre-roll ads simply is nowhere near that, as far as I can see.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Fight *what's wrong *or bend over. I rather fight than catch a social transmitted disease of except nothing and get nothing.
> 
> On one hand a few say they are tired hearing the solutions, one the other hand they want to talk about the problem only until it is an acceptable problem, but both their hands are flat and firmly planted on the floor.


The operative term. Some of us, in analyzing matters, just don't see it here (as a legal/contractual matter).


----------



## Joe3

John7777 said:


> We have a new Bolt OTA, and as of yet no ads. Maybe if every time there was an ad, we all notify the advertiser, that we will be boycotting the product. They may decide to pull the ad from TIVO. It may not get rid of them all but cut down on the amount. We're still too dependent on TIVO to let this be a deal breaker for us. Plus, when you've already purchased the lifetime, there isn't much leverage to say we're leaving. Sorry if somebody suggested this already, but I didn't want to go through all the posts.





JoeKustra said:


> Sounds like a good project for FaceBook. Please feel free to go there and try it.


Sounds like a great idea. Sounds like you know that descent is the essence of democracy. You say right here. This is your home.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> The operative term. Some of us, in analyzing matters, just don't see it here (as a legal/contractual matter).





Joe3 said:


> Fight what's wrong or bend over. I rather fight than catch a social transmitted disease of except nothing and get nothing.
> 
> On one hand a few say they are tired hearing the solutions, one the other hand they want to talk about the problem only until it is an acceptable problem, but both their hands are flat and firmly planted on the floor.


Oh, note, the use of the plural, solutions. You got me double checking.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> You know Mike you say you are offering impartial judgement, and I believe you believe this. However, you also say, it's facing reality, which has a lot of judging going on in it.


I'm facing the reality of the law and facts as I see them here, not trying to do anything else. But of course, that's judgment . . . .  I'm not saying that people can't react otherwise, and there can be a benefit to that.* E.g. expressing views publicly, on Twitter and Facebook; contacting the company. (And, dare I say it, even ultimately non-meritorious lawsuits can serve a purpose.)

* And I'm not denying that maybe my analysis just could be wrong, or there could be other factors.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> With apologies to others for yet further discussion here (please just skip this over), but:
> 
> 1. That's an unfair post: it's not a bias to express an impartial judgment based on the evaluation of the facts as they exist (the fact that you may not like that judgment does not establish bias)--it's facing reality. 2. The TiVo user agreements say that TiVo may change its service how it wants and when it wants--that seems to be a barrier to a user lawsuit over not liking how TiVo changes its service how it wants and when it wants.* But if you have a logical position and analysis otherwise, please do tell (in a separate thread).
> 
> * I_ can_ see how this barrier could be overcome in some more extreme circumstances--such as, if TiVo were to change its service simply to eliminate it, or most of its functionality. But a judge likely would find, in that circumstance, that TiVo was not acting in the spirit and intent of the user agreement, but to defeat it. Adding pre-roll ads simply is nowhere near that, as far as I can see.


Not busting chops.

You know, Mike, you say you are offering impartial judgement, and I believe you believe this. However, you also say, it's facing reality, which has a lot of judging going on in it.


----------



## smark

Perhaps you all can start a new thread on suing TiVo?


----------



## Charles R

Joe3 said:


> Fight what's wrong or bend over.


What have you actually "fought"? Posting a lot of silly smack endlessly on the Internet is simply bending over and whining about it... I'd suggest you take your own advice instead of trying to get others to do what you won't.


----------



## Mikeguy

For those getting the pre-roll ads, has the transition into and back from the pre-roll been smoothed out into a more seamless system? The original video of the pre-roll seemed a bit, er, clunky. 

(I realize that it's only been around a week since pre-roll came out, affording TiVo's engineers little time to work on this, if that's even an intent of the company.)


----------



## hummingbird_206

Fofer said:


> Me too. I found TE3 so ugly and clunky, and the fact that it still has SDUI elements was kind of pathetic. And TE4 feels more streamlined and elegant. Auto com skip is great but the new feature I really wouldn't be able to give up is CEC remote control. At least with my setup, that made things a lot easier and more straightforward.
> 
> When and if I see one of these new pre-roll ads on my lifetime Roamio or my Minis, I will be calling TiVo to have them turn them off. I, too, have had TiVo in my home since their beginning, and we always used to argue about "the slippery slope" of them inserting ads, like on the pause screen. Adding a video commercial to the front of recorded shows strikes me as vastly worse than that, whether we can skip them or not. Because it's only a matter of time then before they insert more of these video ads, or make the unskippable.
> 
> It's just a tacky, sleazy move on their part, I'm kind of disgusted by it, even just in principle.


Wow, I had forgotten about when they inserted ads on the pause screen! Hopefully the pre-roll ads will go away, too, just like the pause ads.


----------



## foghorn2

This sums up this thread at this moment, enjoy!


----------



## JoeKustra

smark said:


> Perhaps you all can start a new thread on suing TiVo?


A new one would not be needed.


----------



## exdishguy

Joe3 said:


> Fight what's wrong or bend over. I rather fight than catch a social transmitted disease of except nothing and get nothing.
> 
> On one hand a few say they are tired hearing the solutions, one the other hand they want to talk about the problem only until it is an acceptable problem, but both their hands are flat and firmly planted on the floor.


I'll "bend over" to put my Tivos in a box the day I sell them to ship them to an EBay buyer. Until then I will keep using my Tivo's because they already have my money - my money is sunk. I'm not going to throw more perfectly good money at a lawsuit that has a snowball's chance in hell of winning. That doesn't sound "brave" to me - that sounds foolish. For now, I've reverted back to TE3 and could opt-out if I decide to give TE4 another try some day. I'll continue to stand tall and complain about their strategy on social media and forums and to Tivo directly - no bending over necessary. No lawyers necessary either.


----------



## jakid

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Personally, as a long time customer of 3 Tivo units (from the Series-1 to the present design) I think this latest move by the Tivo Organization is a *betrayal!* It is a bait-and-switch move on their part. This defeats the whole purpose of me having a Tivo. I paid for the ability to be, commercial free. Now they, not only took my money, but they have the nerve to charge me for watching their commercials, and stealing my hard drive space on top of that. If they are going to do that then they should refund our "Lifetime Subscription" fees, for each and every Tivo unit that has that agreement, and I own. Tivo, you don't get to make a contract with us, charge us for it, then arbitrarily break it whenever you feel like it, and keep the money. That is stealing. If the Tivo company continues down this path, I for one will end my relationship with Tivo in the future, and find other options. Reverting back is not an option for me right now, since the "recordings Transfer function" also no longer works, for some strange reason, it has been workin all along. I would loose all my present recordings if I did. Tivo, you took a beautifully designed recorder, and are about to ruin it, because of greed.


----------



## aaronwt

When are they supposed to start doing the pre-roll ads for everyone?
I checked again last night and I still don't see anything from my two Minis, two Bolts, and Roamio.


----------



## KevTech

aaronwt said:


> When are they supposed to start doing the pre-roll ads for everyone?


Supposed to be in the next 90 days.

When I spoke to Tivo they said my Bolt was not yet scheduled to get the ads.


----------



## shwru980r

There are some free cellular data plans that have enough data to download Tivo guide information every month but not enough to stream video as well as paid broadband and cellular plans with data caps. I think Tivo should warm people about the additional data will be consumed by the pre-roll ads.


----------



## humbb

KevTech said:


> Supposed to be in the next 90 days.
> 
> When I spoke to Tivo they said my Bolt was not yet scheduled to get the ads.


Tivo is likely spreading out the rollout so the CSR's can better handle all the ad opt-out phone call requests.


----------



## Dan203

So you can call and opt out?


----------



## KevTech

Dan203 said:


> So you can call and opt out?


Ya but you have to be getting the ads first before calling.

TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording


----------



## V7Goose

Dan203 said:


> So you can call and opt out?


yes - some people have been successful in getting them removed from TE4 boxes by contacting customer support by calling, email and even chat. But it seems that the company has no intention of sharing this information with the customer base at large. If you know the secret password, you can dump this garbage!


----------



## V7Goose

TiVo-Ted confirmed this, but he also slyly left the door open a bit by saying it would only work if you met the right criteria (and choose not to tell us what the magic criteria is). I'm guessing you just have to be mad enough.


----------



## Joe3

shwru980r said:


> There are some free cellular data plans that have enough data to download Tivo guide information every month but not enough to stream video as well as paid broadband and cellular plans with data caps. I think Tivo should warm people about the additional data will be consumed by the pre-roll ads.


If Rovi/TiVo gave two hoots about us, Rovi/TiVo wouldn't be using us.


----------



## Joe3

humbb said:


> Tivo is likely spreading out the rollout so the CSR's can better handle all the ad opt-out phone call requests. [/Q!


Oh, now, they want to do something about their support staff raying::babyangel:

Put these people on Saturday Night Live!


----------



## astrohip

jakid said:


> This defeats the whole purpose of me having a Tivo. I paid for the ability to be, commercial free.


No you didn't. They don't sell "commercial free" DVRs. No one does. They record what you set them to record. If you choose to skip over parts, which may be commercials, that's your choice. They are NOT commercial free.

It's time to leave this thread. It's gone from informational, to vitriolic and useless. Maybe someone can start a thread for the sole purpose of discussing the workings of this new _feature_. Without all the hand-wringing.


----------



## mattyro7878

Ya know all this "I paid Tivo to be commercial free" . Really? We've had SKIP mode for less than a year. What did you do before that?? You pressed a button to skip commercials. Here's the kicker- those of you rolling back to not see pre rolls are doing up to 12 button pushes during breaks. You are trading skip mode for roughly 40 extra button pushes AN HOUR to skip commercials. I don't get it.


----------



## chrishicks

mattyro7878 said:


> Ya know all this "I paid Tivo to be commercial free" . Really? We've had SKIP mode for less than a year. What did you do before that?? You pressed a button to skip commercials. Here's the kicker- those of you rolling back to not see pre rolls are doing up to 12 button pushes during breaks. You are trading skip mode for roughly 40 extra button pushes AN HOUR to skip commercials. I don't get it.


I'm confused on this one. Skip Mode is on my TE3 box so I only use maybe 4 or 5 button pushes an hour, or maybe I should say per hour program to be more precise. If it's a channel that doesn't have Skip aren't we all(both TE3 and TE4 users) hitting around the same amount of button presses or does TE4 have more than 3 FF speeds?


----------



## mattyro7878

TE3 has auto skip mode? My mistake.


----------



## exdishguy

mattyro7878 said:


> TE3 has auto skip mode? My mistake.


TE3 has skip mode, meaning, you can push the skip button to skip over tagged shows. TE3 can also do auto-skip on tagged shows using an app called IFTTT.


----------



## Fofer

mattyro7878 said:


> Ya know all this "I paid Tivo to be commercial free" . Really? We've had SKIP mode for less than a year. What did you do before that?? You pressed a button to skip commercials. Here's the kicker- those of you rolling back to not see pre rolls are doing up to 12 button pushes during breaks. You are trading skip mode for roughly 40 extra button pushes AN HOUR to skip commercials. I don't get it.


I also don't understand why anyone would downgrade back to TE3 specifically over the pre-roll ad issue, when we've already been told that if/when we get pre-roll ads on TE4, we can call TiVo and have them turn them off for our account.


----------



## mattyro7878

At least we aren't discussing class action and finer points of the law!


----------



## slowbiscuit

exdishguy said:


> TE3 has skip mode, meaning, you can push the skip button to skip over tagged shows. TE3 can also do auto-skip on tagged shows using an app called IFTTT.


Or way better yet, kmttg.


----------



## exdishguy

slowbiscuit said:


> Or way better yet, kmttg.


Ooh - I didn't know that. I will have to look that up. Thanks!


----------



## lucidrenegade

astrohip said:


> No you didn't. They don't sell "commercial free" DVRs. No one does. They record what you set them to record. If you choose to skip over parts, which may be commercials, that's your choice. They are NOT commercial free.
> 
> It's time to leave this thread. It's gone from informational, to vitriolic and useless. Maybe someone can start a thread for the sole purpose of discussing the workings of this new _feature_. Without all the hand-wringing.


I even have a title for you to use - "Tivo apologists safe space"


----------



## Mikeguy

lucidrenegade said:


> I even have a title for you to use - "Tivo apologists safe space"


(Please, for some of us, it's impartial realism.)


----------



## tenthplanet

mattyro7878 said:


> Ya know all this "I paid Tivo to be commercial free" . Really? We've had SKIP mode for less than a year. What did you do before that?? You pressed a button to skip commercials. Here's the kicker- those of you rolling back to not see pre rolls are doing up to 12 button pushes during breaks. You are trading skip mode for roughly 40 extra button pushes AN HOUR to skip commercials. I don't get it.


TV is not supposed be work. Turn it on hit the play button and go. Skip mode helped with that. I don't get it either.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> (Please, for some of us, it's impartial realism.)


I don't know if you notice, but impartial real realism seems to be keeping West Coast hrs.
Never hear it on East Coast workday mornings. Hmm


----------



## exdishguy

Joe3 said:


> I don't know if you notice, but impartial real realism seems to be keeping West Coast hrs.
> Never hear it on East Coast workday mornings. Hmm


What in the actual hell does that mean? I live in NY. I don't know where Mike lives but I also don't care nor do I think he works for Tivo.

The moderators may want to take control of this thread before someone starts posting pics of Big Foot carrying a peanut remote.


----------



## exdishguy

lucidrenegade said:


> I even have a title for you to use - "Tivo apologists safe space"


Good idea. They can start another thread right after that titled, "Can't Read a EULA Snowflakes."


----------



## calitivo

Mikeguy said:


> For those getting the pre-roll ads, has the transition into and back from the pre-roll been smoothed out into a more seamless system? The original video of the pre-roll seemed a bit, er, clunky.
> 
> (I realize that it's only been around a week since pre-roll came out, affording TiVo's engineers little time to work on this, if that's even an intent of the company.)


Absolutely. I moved a Premiere Lifetime to a new Bolt during the last sale. Had several weeks of use prior to pre-rolls. Blue circle delays galore when it hit. Removing them fixed everything. Just an awful implementation of a bad idea. I would expect that anybody calling in to complain when they eventually are afflicted will be allowed to opt out. It sounds like they are doing this on an account level, not box related.


----------



## tommage1

Well I was willing to give it a try. On my TE4 Bolt. Just got the ad "feature". Well kind of. I'm on DSL. Went to play a show. Blue spinning circle. But it did not go away. Just kept going and going. Finally hit the Tivo button. Went back to menu but there was a delay before it got there. Tried playing another show. Black screen. Tivo button. Different show, blue spinning circle that does not end. Decided to try a reboot. It rebooted, BUT then nothing but black screen, says "no signal". When I use remote the yellow light flashes on the Tivo but nothing happens, no signal. So I unplug it and plug it back in. Boots up, I get a picture. So I try playing a show. Same infinite spinning circle (well it's been going about 15 minutes now). I tried with an open mind, this is what I got, never even got to an ad. Will call tomorrow to "opt out" but I think I'm going to roll back to TE3 regardless, glad I've been transferring my recordings to another Tivo. Not sure what is going on, my DSL is slooooow of course but it looks like it will not work at all with DSL, assuming that is the problem. Anyone else using DSL? I am on direct ethernet by the way, no Wifi.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> I don't know if you notice, but impartial real realism seems to be keeping West Coast hrs.
> Never hear it on East Coast workday mornings. Hmm





exdishguy said:


> What in the actual hell does that mean? I live in NY. I don't know where Mike lives but I also don't care nor do I think he works for Tivo.


LOL--so _that's _what was being insinuated? Yes, we're part of a cabal of Alviso TiVo-ists, sitting in a circle on my living room floor with incense burning in the background, chanting the TiVo animation video song. LOL.


----------



## tommage1

1/2 hour, still spinning. Hit Tivo button, tried different shows, either spinning circles or black screens. Have not even seen an ad yet............................. If they put this on TE3 might as well toss my Tivos in the trash, don't think I would even sell them, just sticking someone else with this cr*p.


----------



## Mikeguy

There's been a sighting!


----------



## Mikeguy

calitivo said:


> Absolutely. I moved a Premiere Lifetime to a new Bolt during the last sale. Had several weeks of use prior to pre-rolls. Blue circle delays galore when it hit. Removing them fixed everything. Just an awful implementation of a bad idea. I would expect that anybody calling in to complain when they eventually are afflicted will be allowed to opt out. It sounds like they are doing this on an account level, not box related.





tommage1 said:


> 1/2 hour, still spinning. Hit Tivo button, tried different shows, either spinning circles or black screens. Have not even seen an ad yet............................. If they put this on TE3 might as well toss my Tivos in the trash, don't think I would even sell them, just sticking someone else with this cr*p.


Thanks for the reports. Sounds like pre-roll opt-out grounds to me!* 

* Dare I even suggest it, but it also gives TiVo "feature" implementation matters to look into.


----------



## snerd

smark said:


> Perhaps you all can start a new thread on suing TiVo?


That's not how TCF works. However, you can be sure that the "class action lawsuit" mantra will spread to many other threads. Is that close enough?


----------



## tommage1

calitivo said:


> I would expect that anybody calling in to complain when they eventually are afflicted will be allowed to opt out. It sounds like they are doing this on an account level, not box related.


You know that is very interesting. If it is at an account level not box related then you could opt out. But if you sell/transfer the box to someone else they might not be able to opt out when they transfer to their account. If that is true forget about selling/transferring any TE4 Tivos, whomever ends up with them might be stuck with pre-rolls. Which would not make for happy campers, as in returns etc etc.


----------



## tommage1

snerd said:


> That's not how TCF works. However, you can be sure that the "class action lawsuit" mantra will spread to many other threads. Is that close enough?


I notice this has been discussed but will throw in my two cents. Class action lawsuits a waste, at least for the consumer. The lawyers will make a mint but the consumer gets next to nothing, in most cases. A stock type class action, I know someone who lost about 10K. I think they got $10 or so from the suit (for sure under $100). Plus if you want the company to stay in business (ie you still use their products or own the stock or whatever) all you do is hurt yourself (and again make some lawyers a fortune).


----------



## opfreak

tommage1 said:


> 1/2 hour, still spinning. Hit Tivo button, tried different shows, either spinning circles or black screens. Have not even seen an ad yet............................. If they put this on TE3 might as well toss my Tivos in the trash, don't think I would even sell them, just sticking someone else with this cr*p.


Its for your own good. Without these forced Tivo ad's your TiVo will stop function. ;-)


----------



## exdishguy

Fofer said:


> I also don't understand why anyone would downgrade back to TE3 specifically over the pre-roll ad issue, when we've already been told that if/when we get pre-roll ads on TE4, we can call TiVo and have them turn them off for our account.


Because it was rumored that we may not be able to backrev to TE3 so some of us did it right away before we couldn't. We also didn't know if there would be an opt-out nor did we know if that opt-out would work. If we really want to roll up to TE4 again, I'm pretty sure Tivo won't mind.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> LOL--so _that's _what was being insinuated? Yes, we're part of a cabal of Alviso TiVo-ists, sitting in a circle on my living room floor with incense burning in the background, chanting the TiVo animation video song. LOL.


Sorry, not insinuating. That's the first thing you think? It's all about you? You guys ever keep those inflated ego in check, much?


----------



## Joe3

tommage1 said:


> I notice this has been discussed but will throw in my two cents. Class action lawsuits a waste, at least for the consumer. The lawyers will make a mint but the consumer gets next to nothing, in most cases. A stock type class action, I know someone who lost about 10K. I think they got $10 or so from the suit (for sure under $100). Plus if you want the company to stay in business (ie you still use their products or own the stock or whatever) all you do is hurt yourself (and again make some lawyers a fortune).


Yet, there are all the reports of awards." One actually that made history recently about billion dollars, I think it was against a pharmaceutical company. Mind you awards get appealed, but not down to spare change. Sorry about you knowing someone who knew someone who had a **** for a lawyer, but your generalizing and painting with a board brush.


----------



## cwoody222

tommage1 said:


> You know that is very interesting. If it is at an account level not box related then you could opt out. But if you sell/transfer the box to someone else they might not be able to opt out when they transfer to their account. If that is true forget about selling/transferring any TE4 Tivos, whomever ends up with them might be stuck with pre-rolls. Which would not make for happy campers, as in returns etc etc.


How did you jump to that conclusion?

If it's account level, anyone could opt out, regardless of box.

If you sell a device, it's no longer associated with your account, would then get ads, until the new owner opted out.

There's nothing to suggest a device sold to a secondary user would prohibit opting out.


----------



## tommage1

cwoody222 said:


> How did you jump to that conclusion?
> 
> If it's account level, anyone could opt out, regardless of box.
> 
> If you sell a device, it's no longer associated with your account, would then get ads, until the new owner opted out.
> 
> There's nothing to suggest a device sold to a secondary user would prohibit opting out.


That's not what I've been reading, supposedly the ability to "opt out" depends on your account, how long you've been a customer, type of service you have (lifetime, monthly, promo, whatever). Until Tivo comes out and states "ANYONE CAN OPT OUT AT ANY TIME" I have to figure they are making choices on who can and who cannot opt out, for now probably most, in the future maybe not so. They want the ads, letting some "opt out" for now does not mean they will in the future, probably not. Especially new customers who know nothing else. Maybe old customers can have a yearly get together, talk about "the good old days" of Tivo, live guide, transfers, NO PRE-ROLL ADS


----------



## cwoody222

tommage1 said:


> That's not what I've been reading, supposedly the ability to "opt out" depends on your account, how long you've been a customer, type of service you have (lifetime, monthly, promo, whatever). Until Tivo comes out and states "ANYONE CAN OPT OUT AT ANY TIME" I have to figure they are making choices on who can and who cannot opt out, for now probably most, in the future maybe not so. They want the ads, letting some "opt out" for now does not mean they will in the future, probably not. Especially new customers who know nothing else. Maybe old customers can have a yearly get together, talk about "the good old days" of Tivo, live guide, transfers, NO PRE-ROLL ADS


Oh yes, that I agree with. It seems not ALL customers can opt out.

Doesn't have anything to do with a device being secondhand or anything, just the account itself.


----------



## tommage1

Joe3 said:


> Yet, there are all the reports of awards." One actually that made history recently about billion dollars, I think it was against a pharmaceutical company. Mind you awards get appealed, but not down to spare change. Sorry about you knowing someone who knew someone who had a **** for a lawyer, but your generalizing and painting with a board brush.


Maybe, obviously there are so many suits I could not possibly know how all of them turned out. The ones "I" had experience with, all turned out "spare change" for the consumer. Will be interesting to see how the Equifax suit turns out. Supposedly $125 and something for hours spent because of the breach. I did file since I WAS affected, good amount of time spent. I passed on the $125 (because I don't believe it will be $125), took the years of credit report/scores from all 3 companies. And did 9 hours. Family member doing the $125 and hours. I'm going to GUESS pocket change actually paid to each person, I'll GUESS under $20 if that. But maybe I will be proven wrong. In this case I do believe a suit is warranted, could care less if Equifax went out of business.


----------



## tommage1

By the way, tested the TE4 Bolt again today. Still never ending spinning circles or black screens. Have yet to see an ad. Most of the time no way to bypass either, no buttons do anything, skip button or even FF. Sometimes going back to menu then starting the show again will allow a button push. No feedback though since the ad never plays. Can spend 5 mins or more just trying to play a recording. Maybe it is the DSL but if so they are going to have to change requirements for using a Tivo, "must have at least xxx internet download speed", if the ads working depends on your internet speed/type/company good luck..................


----------



## tommage1

cwoody222 said:


> Oh yes, that I agree with. It seems not ALL customers can opt out.
> 
> Doesn't have anything to do with a device being secondhand or anything, just the account itself.


Well my point was if opt out is account based not on the device then any transfer could end up with a person who would not be allowed to opt out. Tivo is picking and choosing. And I would not want to sell a device to someone that is opted out for ME but might not be for THEM. As there is a good chance they would be POed if stuck with ads, returns, bad feedback etc. I would have no way of knowing before the sale................


----------



## zexel

First, I am in no way a Tivo fan boy who defends everything Tivo does. I do have a problem with the way they implemented this " feature", but that being said, I have opted out and both my Bolt and Roamio are back to normal, no pre roll ads no spinning blue circles. So I suggest everyone try this. If it doesn't fix it , if they stop the opt out, or if they don't allow you to opt out then you have a legitimate gripe. It appears that all some people want to do is complain without having attempted to fix the problem.


----------



## V7Goose

Getting this crap removed may not be as easy as some have reported - my experience so far is a bit different.

I sent an email in from the TiVo support site telling them I wanted it off of my Bolt. The email did automatically open a support case, so I KNOW they saw it. Today that case is closed with no contact to me in any way, and the nasty garbage pre-roll commercials are STILL on my Bolt!


----------



## tommage1

V7Goose said:


> Getting this crap removed may not be as easy as some have reported - my experience so far is a bit different.
> 
> I sent an email in from the TiVo support site telling them I wanted it off of my Bolt. The email did automatically open a support case, so I KNOW they saw it. Today that case is closed with no contact to me in any way, and the nasty garbage pre-roll commercials are STILL on my Bolt!


Before Rovi and moving support offshore email was a GREAT way to request customer service. Since you can be detailed, they have a hard copy they can read and look into. But now forget it. Whenever I've tried emails now the only thing they ever say is "for that you will need to call". Not much different in chat. So seems phone calls are pretty much it for real "issues", and then you STILL get off shore reading from a script in most cases (hey, reboot your Tivo) With no authority to do anything really, if something other than a "normal" procedure they put you on hold and call the person YOU should be talking to. You have to hope they understood enough about what you said and are able to convey it to the person THEY are calling, good luck.


----------



## schatham

V7Goose said:


> Getting this crap removed may not be as easy as some have reported - my experience so far is a bit different.
> 
> I sent an email in from the TiVo support site telling them I wanted it off of my Bolt. The email did automatically open a support case, so I KNOW they saw it. Today that case is closed with no contact to me in any way, and the nasty garbage pre-roll commercials are STILL on my Bolt!


My opinion on this. Tivo has a number of ads it needs to deliver via contract or a target goal. It's possible that if the number calling to stop this is to many that it hurts this ability, they will no longer allow it.


----------



## Mikeguy

V7Goose said:


> Getting this crap removed may not be as easy as some have reported - my experience so far is a bit different.
> 
> I sent an email in from the TiVo support site telling them I wanted it off of my Bolt. The email did automatically open a support case, so I KNOW they saw it. Today that case is closed with no contact to me in any way, and the nasty garbage pre-roll commercials are STILL on my Bolt!


Hopefully, something positive within the typically-quoted 72-hour period. If not, possibly as @tommage1 had noted.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommage1 said:


> By the way, tested the TE4 Bolt again today. Still never ending spinning circles or black screens. Have yet to see an ad. Most of the time no way to bypass either, no buttons do anything, skip button or even FF. Sometimes going back to menu then starting the show again will allow a button push. No feedback though since the ad never plays. Can spend 5 mins or more just trying to play a recording. Maybe it is the DSL but if so they are going to have to change requirements for using a Tivo, "must have at least xxx internet download speed", if the ads working depends on your internet speed/type/company good luck..................


Have you notified TiVo customer support/any response (I don't recall if you had opened a ticket previously)?


tommage1 said:


> You know that is very interesting. If it is at an account level not box related then you could opt out. *But if you sell/transfer the box to someone else they might not be able to opt out when they transfer to their account. *If that is true forget about selling/transferring any TE4 Tivos, whomever ends up with them might be stuck with pre-rolls. Which would not make for happy campers, as in returns etc etc.


Dang, a further valid concern. Although, at that point, this now will be a "standard feature" of TiVo and something of the norm.


----------



## tommage1

Mikeguy said:


> Have you notified TiVo customer support/any response (I don't recall if you had opened a ticket previously)?


No. I just got the "update" yesterday evening. Trying to get it to work last night a fiasco. And today no different, was hoping it would magically get better overnight  Will probably call later today. Hope it does not take 72 hours. Lucky for me I have other Tivos on TE3 so can watch them. For now the TE4 Bolt totally unwatchable. Though I can stream the Bolt recordings to one of my TE3 Tivos.


----------



## tommage1

Mikeguy said:


> Dang, a further valid concern. Although, at that point, this now will be a "standard feature" of TiVo and something of the norm.


"At that point" might be now for some users, some that don't want mess with hoping they can opt out (or think the opt out might be temporary) or don't want to roll back to TE3 if Tivo does not "allow" them to opt out or some who just hate all of this and are going to sell their Tivos now as they don't support this policy/feature whatever you want to call it


----------



## Mikeguy

Dare I ask here: are the pre-roll ads working well/smoothly for anyone (I mean, technologically, not the general matter of them to begin with)? If so, are you on DSL (or likewise, a similar, lower-speed Internet connection)?


----------



## jlb

I think I sense a good movement in this thread. Some do the heated convo had died down which is good. But we just make sure that anyone that gets ads and had problems or difficulties of any kind that you put as much detail herein regarding what’s happening, what box you have, connection type, speed, etc. this will be the only way folks at TiVo will know what is happening at least to users herein. Of course they may choose not to read at all.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## longrider

tommage1 said:


> 1/2 hour, still spinning. Hit Tivo button, tried different shows, either spinning circles or black screens. Have not even seen an ad yet............................. If they put this on TE3 might as well toss my Tivos in the trash, don't think I would even sell them, just sticking someone else with this cr*p.


This is going to be a serious issue if they dont fix it. What if the ad server goes down? No TiVo customer in the country will be able to play recordings? They need to either allow skip during the loading phase or if the ad does not load is say 30 seconds kill the process and play the recording


----------



## Mikeguy

longrider said:


> This is going to be a serious issue if they dont fix it. What if the ad server goes down? No TiVo customer in the country will be able to play recordings? They need to either allow skip during the loading phase or if the ad does not load is say *30 seconds *kill the process and play the recording


If TiVo wants to get any amount of acceptance of the pre-roll, it needs to be seamless (just like a show's "regular" ads) or virtually so--change 30 seconds to ~2 . . . .


----------



## Joe3

tommage1 said:


> Maybe, obviously there are so many suits I could not possibly know how all of them turned out. The ones "I" had experience with, all turned out "spare change" for the consumer. Will be interesting to see how the Equifax suit turns out. Supposedly $125 and something for hours spent because of the breach. I did file since I WAS affected, good amount of time spent. I passed on the $125 (because I don't believe it will be $125), took the years of credit report/scores from all 3 companies. And did 9 hours. Family member doing the $125 and hours. I'm going to GUESS pocket change actually paid to each person, I'll GUESS under $20 if that. But maybe I will be proven wrong. In this case I do believe a suit is warranted, could care less if Equifax went out of business.


Best of luck to you and your family for not just sitting back and taking it.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Sorry, not insinuating. That's the first thing you think? It's all about you? You guys ever keep those inflated ego in check, much?


LOL--wow. Perhaps re-read the post you're responding to--the question mark there indicates that this _hadn't _occurred to me. And then I guess I go back to, as @exdishguy wrote, not knowing what the heck the original comment meant to begin with, seeming to insinuate _something _"conspiratorial." But really, I don't need to know, as there's no further purpose to try to rationally discuss the "let's go get 'em and sue 'em" position, which has been repeated ad nauseum (and with this result).


----------



## tommage1

Joe3 said:


> Best of luck to you and your family for not just sitting back and taking it.


Thanks, I am definitely NOT a sit back and take it kind of person. I will almost always do SOMETHING when I get screwed. Sometimes though the possible return so small the "something" might be small, not worth a LOT of effort. All situational.


----------



## krkaufman

zexel said:


> I have opted out and both my Bolt and Roamio are back to normal,


Had you been seeing the ads on your Roamio?


----------



## krkaufman

V7Goose said:


> I sent an email in from the TiVo support site telling them I wanted it off of my Bolt. The email did automatically open a support case, so I KNOW they saw it. Today that case is closed with no contact to me in any way, and the nasty garbage pre-roll commercials are STILL on my Bolt!


With every prior post saying that the removal can take up to 72 hours, what about your process makes you think your case would be instantaneous?


----------



## Mikeguy

exdishguy said:


> Fofer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't understand why anyone would downgrade back to TE3 specifically over the pre-roll ad issue, when we've already been told that if/when we get pre-roll ads on TE4, we can call TiVo and have them turn them off for our account.
> 
> 
> 
> Because it was rumored that we may not be able to backrev to TE3 so some of us did it right away before we couldn't. We also didn't know if there would be an opt-out nor did we know if that opt-out would work. If we really want to roll up to TE4 again, I'm pretty sure Tivo won't mind.
Click to expand...

Yep; and to avoid a misperception from the above, opting out is not necessarily a matter of "call us and we'll do it"--"Yes, our customer support organization does have the ability to opt a customer out of this functionality. I believe there are a number of criteria that go into determining whether a customer is eligible for this (tenure, service plan, etc.). I don't think it's as easy as just calling us up and asking to be opted out" (Tivo_Ted).

If one is getting the pre-roll ads and doesn't want them, makes sense to try to opt out from them first; but side-grading to TE3 could be necessary (or even preferred, lol).


----------



## tommage1

Mikeguy said:


> but side-grading to TE3 could be necessary


I do like your use of the term "side grading". For ME, being a strictly record/watch person TE3 is an "upgrade" from TE4. Only thing "I" would/will miss on TE4 is auto skip. And hey, if I had to I could do without regular skip, I was a pro at fast forwarding just enough where the few second pullback would leave me right where I wanted to be


----------



## V7Goose

krkaufman said:


> With every prior post saying that the removal can take up to 72 hours, what about your process makes you think your case would be instantaneous?


I said absolutely nothing about when I sent in the email or how long it has been. Why do you jump to such a pointedly insulting conclusion?

Or are you deliberately being disingenuous? You seem to have a pattern of that.


----------



## V7Goose

Here is an update: I added an update to my Closed case on Tivo support asking WHY they had closed it without even contacting me in any way, and again saying I wanted this garbage removed from my box. I STILL have not heard from them, nor is there any update from them on the closed case (but to be honest, I wouldn't expect a reply on the same day I updated the case online, especially on the weekend).

However, after a reboot of my Bolt, it does seem that the heinous pre-roll commercials have been removed. I have only tested one or two programs so far, but I do not see the BSC, and that is a good sign. It is good that they removed them, but TiVo's repeated lack of communication with its customers continues to generate bad will.

NEW UPDATE: Here is the Good news - TiVo support actually DID send me an email yesterday morning concerning this case, and it stated specifically that they were requesting the update to stop the advertising, but it would take up to 72 hours (just like the responses others have reported). I have no explanation on why that email did not show up on either my computer or my cell phone until just now (over 30 hours after the header shows it was sent); perhaps their servers are a bit overloaded with responses to unhappy customers? In the past they would often update the case status to "Resolution sent", but they did not do that here (it would have helped a lot). I cannot explain it, but I did want to set the record straight.


----------



## tommage1

V7Goose said:


> Here is an update: I added an update to my Closed case on Tivo support asking WHY they had closed it without even contacting me in any way, and again saying I wanted this garbage removed from my box. I STILL have not heard from them, nor is there any update from them on the closed case (but to be honest, I wouldn't expect a reply on the same day I updated the case online, especially on the weekend).
> 
> However, after a reboot of my Bolt, it does seem that the heinous pre-roll commercials have been removed. I have only tested one or two programs so far, but I do not see the BSC, and that is a good sign. It is good that they removed them, but TiVo's repeated lack of communication with its customers continues to generate bad will.


I had a similar situation once. Channel info problem, filled out the email form. They closed the case without contacting me. Channels were still wrong. BUT a few days later they had corrected them. The lack of feedback is horrendous though, at least ACKNOWLEDGE message received and we are working on it or something like that.


----------



## Fofer

Or just some boilerplate reply, “noted and fixed, give it a few days.” Especially when it’s good news like that? Why not? Seems like a no-brainer.


----------



## John9871

Just called Tivo technical support. They said they will have to escalate my issue (pre-roll ads) to a higher tier above them and they will delete settings on my box/ account so it will not appear again. Estimating 2 to 3 days for it to go away.

Tivo Bolt OTA
software version: 21.9.2.v4-USC-11-849


----------



## JoeKustra

I had a chat. They can't stop pre-roll ads until you get them.


----------



## krkaufman

V7Goose said:


> I said absolutely nothing about when I sent in the email or how long it has been. Why do you jump to such a pointedly insulting conclusion?


That you still didn't bother to state the time of submission I'll assume that the conclusion was correct, however insulting.



V7Goose said:


> NEW UPDATE: Here is the Good news - TiVo support actually DID send me an email yesterday morning concerning this case, and it stated specifically that they were requesting the update to stop the advertising, but it would take up to 72 hours (just like the responses others have reported). I have no explanation on why that email did not show up on either my computer or my cell phone until just now (over 30 hours after the header shows it was sent);


Chuckle.


----------



## tommage1

Ok, I called and told them I want the pre-roll ads stopped. They said they have to request it, they put me on hold for a bit while they called someone else I guess (probably to see if I "qualify" to have them stopped). Came back and said they will be removed, within 48-72 hours. I asked them if I would get an email when done (since I do have to reboot), they said yes, we shall see on that part.

I did emphasize the ads DO NOT WORK AT ALL on my DSL, spinning circles or black screens, ad never loads at all (and recording never plays.) And she added it to my case number, I mentioned they really need to test with DSL and/or low internet speeds. So again we shall see. Since Tivo Ted says as far as he knows they will not be blocking "side grades" to TE3 I may keep TE4 awhile longer if the ads do go away. But in long run I will probably go back to TE3, for my purposes it's better, other than auto skip. And I'm not SURE the opt out will last forever...............


----------



## Noelmel

KevTech said:


> So here is what I found out during a long chat with Tivo.
> 
> If you are on TE3 (rep called it classic TE3 software) you will not have ads so no need to call.
> 
> If you are on TE3 and go to TE4 do not call until you start seeing ads as they can not put in an opt out request until you are seeing ads.
> 
> If you are already on TE4 do not call until you start seeing ads as once again they can do nothing until you are actually seeing the ads.


Did they happen to mention if Roamios were "eligible" boxes and would also receive the ads or just Bolts and newer?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KevTech

Noelmel said:


> Did they happen to mention if Roamios were "eligible" boxes and would also receive the ads or just Bolts and newer?


I did not ask but it was said that eligible boxes are those running TE4 so if the Roamio was on TE4 then it should get the ads.


----------



## tommage1

You know I wonder. Say you are "opted out" on the pre-rolls. Then you decide to "side grade" to TE3. I wonder what would happen if you decided to go back to TE4 in the future. Would you get the pre-rolls again or would your account still be opted out since you did it before? NOT going to test, too much involved but interesting.


----------



## Tony_T

JoeKustra said:


> I had a chat. They can't stop pre-roll ads until you get them.


Same here. I was out of town a week ago, so I thought I'd get a jump on the opt-out. Chatted and they said I wasn't on the pre-roll, and to just contact them when they start.


----------



## jlb

tommage1 said:


> I do like your use of the term "side grading". For ME, being a strictly record/watch person TE3 is an "upgrade" from TE4. Only thing "I" would/will miss on TE4 is auto skip. And hey, if I had to I could do without regular skip, I was a pro at fast forwarding just enough where the few second pullback would leave me right where I wanted to be


Yup same. Most programs overlay the show rating for a few seconds in the upper left corner. So I just look for that, hit play, and BAM I'm where I need to be

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## krkaufman

KevTech said:


> I did not ask but it was said that eligible boxes are those running TE4 so if the Roamio was on TE4 then it should get the ads.


This is why people keep asking/digging. TiVo keeps saying "eligible boxes" but that's an undefined term to date.

If they were pushing ads to all TE4 boxes, I'd think they could just say "TE4" rather than "eligible." Bottom line, I haven't seen anyone report the ads as present, yet, on a TE4 Roamio or Mini - but that might just be because they're only pushing 'em to the more powerful BOLT platform for the first wave. As a cruel trick, maybe they'll only be pushed to the fastest, newest boxes ... BOLTs and the Edge, running TE4.


----------



## Noelmel

krkaufman said:


> This is why people keep asking/digging. TiVo keeps saying "eligible boxes" but that's an undefined term to date.
> 
> If they were pushing ads to all TE4 boxes, I'd think they could just say "TE4" rather than "eligible." Bottom line, I haven't seen anyone report the ads as present, yet, on a TE4 Roamio or Mini - but that might just be because they're only pushing 'em to the more powerful BOLT platform for the first wave. As a cruel trick, maybe they'll only be pushed to the fastest, newest boxes ... BOLTs and the Edge, running TE4.


I asked @TiVo_Ted on here and in a PM if Roamios are "eligible boxes" and will be getting the ads too. Hopefully he will reply and let us know!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## shwru980r

Seems like Tivo should ping the customers's Tivo before enabling the pre-roll ad feature to ensure the ping time does not exceed the latency threshold to stream the ad.


----------



## shwru980r

tommage1 said:


> Ok, I called and told them I want the pre-roll ads stopped. They said they have to request it, they put me on hold for a bit while they called someone else I guess (probably to see if I "qualify" to have them stopped). Came back and said they will be removed, within 48-72 hours. I asked them if I would get an email when done (since I do have to reboot), they said yes, we shall see on that part.
> 
> I did emphasize the ads DO NOT WORK AT ALL on my DSL, spinning circles or black screens, ad never loads at all (and recording never plays.) And she added it to my case number, I mentioned they really need to test with DSL and/or low internet speeds. So again we shall see. Since Tivo Ted says as far as he knows they will not be blocking "side grades" to TE3 I may keep TE4 awhile longer if the ads do go away. But in long run I will probably go back to TE3, for my purposes it's better, other than auto skip. And I'm not SURE the opt out will last forever...............


Are you able to stream using any of the Tivo apps like Youtube and if you can't, does that lock up your Tivo in the same manner?


----------



## manhole

Are we going to be able to opt out of the in-guide ads too? Those are going to be just as annoying (if not more annoying) than the pre-roll ads.


----------



## tommage1

shwru980r said:


> Are you able to stream using any of the Tivo apps like Youtube and if you can't, does that lock up your Tivo in the same manner?


I rarely use the apps but You Tube is working fine. Occasionally over the years I've used Netflix, Hulu and Amazon also. Never had any problems. My DSL is as fast as is offered by me, 6Mbps (tests around 5Mbs). I used to have around 700Kbs (so some people might still have), if the pre-rolls don't work with 6/5Mbps imagine 700Kbps.

Whew, I was testing the pre-rolls and forgot to check back to see how it was going (had the blue circle). I was on a different input actually watching something, then went out. HOURS later I went back to the Bolt, the spinning circle was still there. I will have to check my DSL usage, I only get 150GB a month, the blue circle was probably spinning half a day, hope it was not using internet the whole time.


----------



## Rapt0r

I’ve been receiving these ads for several days now. It’s random which recordings it plays on, but frequent. The same ad every time. An obnoxious car sales ad, and not in English!

So, TiVo gives us AutoSkip to skip commercials, and then runs commercials prior to our recordings!?! What are they thinking? I didn’t spend $1,000 to watch ads. Yes, you can (currently) skip the ad with a FFWD but why should we have to? Not at all happy with TiVo.


----------



## Mikeguy

Rapt0r said:


> I've been receiving these ads for several days now. It's random which recordings it plays on, but frequent. The *same ad every time. *An *obnoxious car sales ad*, and *not in English*!


That's 3 strikes. And just painful.


----------



## tommage1

Hey guess what, as of today the pre-rolls are working on my DSL. Circle spins a second or so then the ad plays (and can skip with button push). Not sure what was going on past couple days, maybe when I called they looked into it. I don't like the ads of course but only a few seconds to get past.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommage1 said:


> Hey guess what, as of today the pre-rolls are working on my DSL. Circle spins a second or so then the ad plays (and can skip with button push). Not sure what was going on past couple days, maybe when I called they looked into it. I don't like the ads of course but only a few seconds to get past.


And so, such a quandry: are we happy about this?


----------



## Bigg

shwru980r said:


> Seems like Tivo should ping the customers's Tivo before enabling the pre-roll ad feature to ensure the ping time does not exceed the latency threshold to stream the ad.


It's not latency though. This would work fine on satellite internet, since the modern satellite systems have 25mbps, even though they have crazy high pings. Not that you'd want to burn up your bandwidth on TiVo ads, but it would work if you really, really want an OTA DVR. It might not work on a very slow DSL connection, even though pings are relatively low, since the bandwidth is so small.

This is an edge case either way, since it would only happen to rural users with OTA reception but no cable available and an OTA TiVo, but it's still an edge case that someone will run into.


----------



## chiguy50

Rapt0r said:


> I've been receiving these ads for several days now. It's random which recordings it plays on, but frequent. The same ad every time. An obnoxious car sales ad, and not in English!
> 
> So, TiVo gives us AutoSkip to skip commercials, and then runs commercials prior to our recordings!?! What are they thinking? I didn't spend $1,000 to watch ads. Yes, you can (currently) skip the ad with a FFWD but *why should we have to*? Not at all happy with TiVo.


You do *not* necessarily have to put up with the pre-roll ads. In case you have not been following this thread, you have the option of calling in to TiVo customer support and they will remove the feature from your account settings (on a case-by-case basis and subject to certain undefined preconditions).

So far to to best of my recollection no one here who has seen the ads has reported calling in and being turned down for their removal. It does reportedly take up to 72 hours to take effect, so you have to wait a bit to confirm the process.


----------



## chiguy50

krkaufman said:


> This is why people keep asking/digging. TiVo keeps saying "eligible boxes" but that's an undefined term to date.
> 
> If they were pushing ads to all TE4 boxes, I'd think they could just say "TE4" rather than "eligible." Bottom line, I haven't seen anyone report the ads as present, yet, on a TE4 Roamio or Mini - but that might just be because they're only pushing 'em to the more powerful BOLT platform for the first wave. As a cruel trick, maybe they'll only be pushed to the fastest, newest boxes ... BOLTs and the Edge, running TE4.


My interpretation has always been that they (including Ted) mean any TiVo device that is capable of running TE4, whether it is currently or has ever been on TE4.

I agree that the stipulation could have been more precise, but that's not necessarily something the legal department would strive for.


----------



## krkaufman

chiguy50 said:


> My interpretation has always been ...


Right, eliminate interpretations.


----------



## krkaufman

chiguy50 said:


> any TiVo device that is capable of running TE4, whether it is currently or has ever been on TE4.


Though I'll pointlessly argue that this interpretation seems over-broad, as it would seem to include boxes currently running TE3, having been rolled-back.


----------



## chiguy50

krkaufman said:


> Though I'll pointlessly argue that this interpretation seems over-broad, as it would seem to include boxes currently running TE3, having been rolled-back.


Yes, precisely. The operative term in question here is "eligible." Any box capable of running TE4 would be eligible to receive the pre-roll ads; those boxes (e.g., Premieres) that lack the capability of hosting TE4 can not get this ad feature. That is not to imply that any eligible box that is currently running TE3 would receive it as long as it remains on TE3. That is a separate question, which Ted has answered "for the present."

(N.B.: His exact words were "At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3.")


----------



## krkaufman

chiguy50 said:


> That is not to imply that any eligible box that is currently running TE3 would receive it as long as it remains on TE3.


Whether implied it's what I inferred from your original statement:


chiguy50 said:


> My interpretation has always been that they (including Ted) mean any TiVo device that is capable of running TE4, whether it is currently or has ever been on TE4.


----------



## chiguy50

krkaufman said:


> Whether implied it's what I inferred from your original statement


Your inference is specious due to the fact that you are misreading my post or have failed to place it in the proper context.

To recap: I was responding to your statement "TiVo keeps saying "eligible boxes" but that's an undefined term to date."

And I declared my understanding of the term "eligible boxes" to be "any TiVo device that is capable of running TE4, whether it is currently or has ever been on TE4."


----------



## Kaphka

I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines because I'm still on TE3, and I don't expect to switch to TE4 any time soon (especially now.) Have any of you called TiVo Support and tried to opt out of ads even though you're on TE3? Do you think it's worth it, just in case they stop allowing people to opt out in the future?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Kaphka said:


> I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines because I'm still on TE3, and I don't expect to switch to TE4 any time soon (especially now.) Have any of you called TiVo Support and tried to opt out of ads even though you're on TE3? Do you think it's worth it, just in case they stop allowing people to opt out in the future?


Some have been told they can't opt-out until they're receiving the ads.


----------



## Pbarkey

I have not received any ads yet, but I'm wondering if Tivo is just waiting. My yearly subscription is finished at the end of October. I guess I'll go monthly until the ads kick in. If Tivo won't opt me out when I do get the ads, I will have to think things over.


----------



## Amnesia

I'm not sure why you'd want to go monthly. As far as I can tell, everyone who's asked for the ads to be removed has had their request honored.


----------



## schatham

Is their anyone who had the ads removed not on lifetime? Please report.


----------



## Noelmel

^ I feel most people I have seen report they successfully got them removed so far have been monthly. I’m on lifetime myself so hope that’s not the case. But I feel they have better leverage to threaten to cancel. Whereas they already got my money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

If lifetime subscribers aren’t eligible for opting out of the pre-roll ads, but monthly subscribers on the same software version and hardware model are, heads will roll.


----------



## krkaufman

chiguy50 said:


> Your inference is specious due to the fact that you are misreading my post or have failed to place it in the proper context.
> 
> To recap: I was responding to your statement "TiVo keeps saying "eligible boxes" but that's an undefined term to date."
> 
> And I declared my understanding of the term "eligible boxes" to be "any TiVo device that is capable of running TE4, whether it is currently or has ever been on TE4."


Whatever. My impression is that you may be scoping "eligible box" as a hardware construct, which differs from my interpretation of the term. I'm satisfied that this most pleasurable experience has demonstrated the value of TiVo being more specific.


----------



## ufo4sale

Is this thread ever going to die.


----------



## minimeh

I think the thread's okay, it's the micro-parsing of phrases and words, the unbased pseudo-legal analysis, the insistence on having the last word that grows tedious. Just saying...


----------



## MrDell

Kaphka said:


> I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines because I'm still on TE3, and I don't expect to switch to TE4 any time soon (especially now.) Have any of you called TiVo Support and tried to opt out of ads even though you're on TE3? Do you think it's worth it, just in case they stop allowing people to opt out in the future?


 From what I understand you cannot call until the adds show up on your TiVo. When they finally show up you can then make a call and have them removed.


----------



## krkaufman

MrDell said:


> From what I understand you cannot call until the adds show up on your TiVo. When they finally show up you can then make a call and have them removed.


Right. And which shouldn't ever be needed for those running TE3 (per current TiVo plans).


----------



## tenthplanet

minimeh said:


> I think the thread's okay, it's the micro-parsing of phrases and words, the unbased pseudo-legal analysis, the insistence on having the last word that grows tedious. Just saying...


What we need is a thread to just dealing with the problem, what to do, who to call vs a complaint thread. Just a thought.


----------



## Bigg

tenthplanet said:


> What we need is a thread to just dealing with the problem, what to do, who to call vs a complaint thread. Just a thought.


But then it wouldn't be TCF if we had threads that actually had a single topic and stuck to it!!


----------



## Donbadabon

Noelmel said:


> ^ I feel most people I have seen report they successfully got them removed so far have been monthly. I'm on lifetime myself so hope that's not the case. But I feel they have better leverage to threaten to cancel. Whereas they already got my money.


I'm Lifetime and successfully got them removed from by OTA Bolt. I e-mailed them, they replied with the 72 hour window, and they are now gone.


----------



## shwru980r

The only customers that have any recourse are the retail customers and retail customers are such a small percentage of their business. The revenue potential must be significant for Tivo to push something like this that they know most customers would instinctively decline.


----------



## Bigg

shwru980r said:


> The only customers that have any recourse are the retail customers and retail customers are such a small percentage of their business. The revenue potential must be significant for Tivo to push something like this that they know most customers would instinctively decline.


I'm sure they're making some money off of it, but I'd have to think there's a grander plan to partner with MSOs and/or integrate ads into their future streaming service.


----------



## shwru980r

Bigg said:


> I'm sure they're making some money off of it, but I'd have to think there's a grander plan to partner with MSOs and/or integrate ads into their future streaming service.


Exactly and I doubt it will be so easy for an MSO customer to opt out.


----------



## krkaufman

Bigg said:


> I'm sure they're making some money off of it, but I'd have to think there's a grander plan to partner with MSOs and/or integrate ads into their future streaming service.


Right, and retail is just, as many have suggested previously, their beta sandbox.


----------



## slice1900

krkaufman said:


> Right, and retail is just, as many have suggested previously, their beta sandbox.


I assume MSO customers have no choice but to run TE4? Maybe that's why there have been no updates to TE3 for over a year, and they indicated no plans to add preroll ads to TE3. They don't need us TE3 people to beta test for MSO customers, so we get left out of things like this, and any other nasty plans they and the MSOs have cooked up for those captive customers.


----------



## Diana Collins

RCN, at least, is still using TE3 on their boxes.


----------



## krkaufman

slice1900 said:


> I assume MSO customers have no choice but to run TE4?


I think MSO customers simply have no choice; they get whatever their provider decides, whether TE3 or 4, and whatever streaming apps the provider allows, if any.


----------



## DeltaOne

krkaufman said:


> I think MSO customers simply have no choice; they get whatever their provider decides, whether TE3 or 4, and whatever streaming apps the provider allows, if any.


I know someone with a TiVo from Mediacom (Delaware). They were pushed on to TE4 about three or four months ago.

I know someone with their own TiVo on Antietam (western Maryland). They have the option to upgrade to TE4 but haven't yet done so.


----------



## krkaufman

DeltaOne said:


> I know someone with a TiVo from Mediacom (Delaware). They were pushed on to TE4 about three or four months ago.
> 
> I know someone with their own TiVo on Antietam (western Maryland). They have the option to upgrade to TE4 but haven't yet done so.


Right, retail owners have the freedom to choose, where the only downside is usually lack of access to the provider's on-demand library via the TiVo (with a few exceptions).


----------



## tenthplanet

Bigg said:


> But then it wouldn't be TCF if we had threads that actually had a single topic and stuck to it!!


True while we're at it...There is no coffee in the Tivo coffeehouse . Maybe we should rename the it "The Tivo Complaint Forum".


----------



## snerd

tenthplanet said:


> True while we're at it...There is no coffee in the Tivo coffeehouse . Maybe we should rename the it "The Tivo Complaint Forum".


No coffee, but a lot of Whine and Cheese.


----------



## tenthplanet

snerd said:


> No coffee, but a lot of Whine and Cheese.


We need a better Whine list


----------



## jlb

tenthplanet said:


> We need a better Whine list


There are apparently plenty of sommelier herein.... 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark814

foghorn2 said:


> Ironically the Windows store wants 99 cents to watch your MOV file, itunes plays just the audio, I have to load it onto Kodi which played it fine. Insulting.


That's why I run Linux, to do anything free.


----------



## dameatball

andyf said:


> Here's a video of what happens with Young Sheldon on CBS
> 
> www.andyf.com/IMG_0950.MOV


Wow that is really unfortunate for multiple reasons. They clearly are no longer focused on the users experience and more in short term revenue grabs. Before you know they'll be selling our personal info with viewing habits to advertisers. Wait they already do that.


----------



## dameatball

Charles R said:


> My take... since virtually the rest of the world is doing such I can't logically get upset. And in reality I'm saving more time with AutoSkip - as in if I had to pick both or neither I'd pick both. Although I don't think it will be implemented in all devices. As an example with Amazon's Kindle you can purchase the same tablet with ads


I'm not familiar with any other dvr/hardware that you run locally where ads are inserted. I might be wrong but I thought that was sorta the idea when you make the upfront purchase for hardware, you get to decide what goes on it.


----------



## bradolson

Heard from a friend in the beta program that they are looking for people to test a “patch” for TE3 this month. No further details were given.


----------



## jlb

bradolson said:


> Heard from a friend in the beta program that they are looking for people to test a "patch" for TE3 this month. No further details were given.


That could be worrisome.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## krkaufman

bradolson said:


> Heard from a friend in the beta program that they are looking for people to test a "patch" for TE3 this month. No further details were given.


That they're calling it a "patch" rather than "update" may provide some solace in the interim.


----------



## Lurker1

krkaufman said:


> That they're calling it a "patch" rather than "update" may provide some solace in the interim.


I'm hoping they add pre-roll ads and remove thumbs. Bonus points if they disable transfers.


----------



## waynomo

I'm sorry if this has been discussed I'm a bit late to this thread. I've tried to read the whole thing, but I'm only about halfway through.

How much do you think TiVo is making by monetizing its user base? How much are they making off each user? 

I'm one of those, "I'll give you my TiVo remote when you pry it from my cold dead hands" people. I want TiVo to be a viable business. I'd gladly pay a little extra each month/year to keep TiVo going and to not have to deal with pre-roll ads. Still they don't seem like they are all that intrusive and a small price to pay to keep TiVo profitable. (I haven't seen one yet)


----------



## tenthplanet

Lurker1 said:


> I'm hoping they add pre-roll ads and remove thumbs. Bonus points if they disable transfers.


----------



## RoamioJeff

Lurker1 said:


> I'm hoping they add pre-roll ads and remove thumbs. Bonus points if they disable transfers.


What?

Sarcasm?


----------



## Fofer

Yes


----------



## snerd

A better plan to monitize pre-roll ads:

1) Make it "opt-in" so that it isn't crammed down anyone's throat. Allow users to enable/disable it at their own discretion (especially if they have Lifetime/All-in).
2) Offer some incentive to watch the ads. For every ad not skipped, give a rebate/discount on the monthly/yearly cost. In other words, pass some of the revenue back to those who are willing to suffer through the ads by their own choice. Not sure what incentives would get those with Lifetime/All-in to choke down the ads, so let them opt out.
3) Mix in a healthy supply of prior Super Bowl ads (you know, the ones people *want* to see).
4) Occasionally throw in the famous Janet Jackson Wardrobe Malfunction 

In other words, give control back to the customers. The thing that made TiVo great, in my view, was that it provided a mechanism to avoid wasting time watching the same stupid commercials over and over again. It gave us the power to watch TV on our own terms, which truly changed how we watch TV. Then it added multiple tuners and OTA capability. Then skip, quickplay and autoskip.

Now if only we could stream on our own terms, with a TiVo interface rather than a zillion other interfaces that are all about forcing us to stream on the terms dictated by the providers (often more forced ads), then TiVo would be even better. Hey, I can pipedream, can't I?


----------



## TostitoBandito

I successfully got them to flag my account for no ads on the second attempt via emailing support. The first one just gave me a bunch of info about why they're doing pre-roll ads and how to skip them, and then I opened a second ticket and said "No, please just remove me" and I mentioned Tivo_Ted and his statements here.

That said, they seem to have improved their ad serving performance at least. My box no longer freezes up for an extended period when I try to skip an ad. It actually goes to the recording within a couple seconds.


----------



## short circuit1

TostitoBandito said:


> I successfully got them to flag my account for no ads on the second attempt via emailing support. The first one just gave me a bunch of info about why they're doing pre-roll ads and how to skip them, and then I opened a second ticket and said "No, please just remove me" and I mentioned Tivo_Ted and his statements here.
> 
> Thanks, had success following your method.


----------



## Rapt0r

chiguy50 said:


> You do *not* necessarily have to put up with the pre-roll ads. In case you have not been following this thread, you have the option of calling in to TiVo customer support and they will remove the feature from your account settings (on a case-by-case basis and subject to certain undefined preconditions).
> 
> So far to to best of my recollection no one here who has seen the ads has reported calling in and being turned down for their removal. It does reportedly take up to 72 hours to take effect, so you have to wait a bit to confirm the process.


I was aware (from having read through this thread) and had planned to do so. Though, FWIW, since posting I've noticed only a brief spinning blue symbol and no ads, with pretty much every recent recording. I do not think my post had any impact, but I wonder if they have backed off given all the contacts. I still intend to follow up with them, though I suspect all our efforts will come to nothing on this, and they are simply getting their ducks in a row. Others still receiving pre-roll ads?


----------



## chiguy50

Rapt0r said:


> I was aware (from having read through this thread) and had planned to do so. Though, FWIW, since posting I've noticed only a brief spinning blue symbol and no ads, with pretty much every recent recording. I do not think my post had any impact, but I wonder if they have backed off given all the contacts. I still intend to follow up with them, though I suspect all our efforts will come to nothing on this, and they are simply getting their ducks in a row. Others still receiving pre-roll ads?


Good to hear that you were fully up to date on this. If I were in your shoes I would not delay asking for removal while TiVo seems to be responsive. You never know when the tide may turn and, unless you enjoy having these ads, you might as well have them eliminated.


----------



## Rapt0r

chiguy50 said:


> Good to hear that you were fully up to date on this. If I were in your shoes I would not delay asking for removal while TiVo seems to be responsive. You never know when the tide may turn and, unless you enjoy having these ads, you might as well have them eliminated.


Actually, after posting my prior reply I submitted an email on TiVo's site, and have already received a pleasant response that they will make the change to my account within 72 hours.


----------



## waynomo

Rapt0r said:


> Actually, after posting my prior reply I submitted an email on TiVo's site, and have already received a pleasant response that they will make the change to my account within 72 hours.


Do you have a link to the page where you submitted and got a positive response?


----------



## JKR123

This new change to add commercials to the beginning of recordings seems to have caused an issue for me. I tried to watch a show tonight, Jimmy Kimmel, recorded on my Bolt, from my Premier box while it was still recording. Nothing would play. It appeared to be recording when looking at the listing through the online app, as it showed 15 minutes of recording had elapsed and was still going. I went to my Bolt box and tried to play the show from recordings and I got a spinning circle then some commercial, then nothing. I could see the show playing on that channel so it wasn’t a signal issue. I went back to my recordings list and tried to play the show again and I got the spinning circle again and then an Amazon commercial and then the recording stopped as before. No recorded minutes show any longer on the listing. Has anyone else had an issue with a show appearing to be recording but all you get is the additional inserted commercial? I will be reporting this to TIVO support.


----------



## Mikeguy

JKR123 said:


> This new change to add commercials to the beginning of recordings seems to have caused an issue for me. I tried to watch a show tonight, Jimmy Kimmel, recorded on my Bolt, from my Premier box while it was still recording. Nothing would play. It appeared to be recording when looking at the listing through the online app, as it showed 15 minutes of recording had elapsed and was still going. I went to my Bolt box and tried to play the show from recordings and I got a spinning circle then some commercial, then nothing. I could see the show playing on that channel so it wasn't a signal issue. I went back to my recordings list and tried to play the show again and I got the spinning circle again and then an Amazon commercial and then the recording stopped as before. No recorded minutes show any longer on the listing. Has anyone else had an issue with a show appearing to be recording but all you get is the additional inserted commercial? I will be reporting this to TIVO support.


And when you speak with TiVo, ask the rep. to turn off the pre-roll ads "feature" entirely for your account; if you are asked for a justification, mention the malfunctioning. Hopefully, that will clear away any future issue for you (can take 48-72 hours).


----------



## NorthAlabama

oh, great, another service where the ads work, but the content doesn't, just what the world needed...


----------



## JKR123

Mikeguy said:


> And when you speak with TiVo, ask the rep. to turn off the pre-roll ads "feature" entirely for your account; if you are asked for a justification, mention the malfunctioning. Hopefully, that will clear away any future issue for you (can take 48-72 hours).


Thanks so much for the info. (If I can get this fixed and then my tuning adapter issue fixed I will be back in business!)


----------



## tarheelblue32

JKR123 said:


> Thanks so much for the info. (If I can get this fixed and then my tuning adapter issue fixed I will be back in business!)


Tuning adapter issues are never truly fixed, but merely sent into remission.


----------



## Rapt0r

waynomo said:


> Do you have a link to the page where you submitted and got a positive response?


I logged into my TiVo account and used their Email Us section in My Support tab for their customercare 'email' (as opposed to info). It brings up a form that gathers your details and gives you drop downs to select your specific equipment. You then have a comment box to enter your question. Not sure there's a direct link, you'll have to log in.

Also, upon logging in and looking at my account details I noticed the following interesting account status items. If they've been there before I have not noticed them.

Privacy status
Beta
Limit Ad Tracking
No
Reset Ad ID
(blank)


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

waynomo said:


> I'm sorry if this has been discussed I'm a bit late to this thread. I've tried to read the whole thing, but I'm only about halfway through.
> 
> How much do you think TiVo is making by monetizing its user base? How much are they making off each user?
> 
> I'm one of those, "I'll give you my TiVo remote when you pry it from my cold dead hands" people. I want TiVo to be a viable business. I'd gladly pay a little extra each month/year to keep TiVo going and to not have to deal with pre-roll ads. Still they don't seem like they are all that intrusive and a small price to pay to keep TiVo profitable. (I haven't seen one yet)


If I had to guess TiVo is probably making pennies or a fraction of that from each ad so that would make revenue per customer in single dollars over the course of a year depending on how many shows you watch and record. Just my guess though, could be dead wrong.


----------



## schatham

Rapt0r said:


> Also, upon logging in and looking at my account details I noticed the following interesting account status items. If they've been there before I have not noticed them.
> 
> Privacy status
> Beta
> Limit Ad Tracking
> No
> Reset Ad ID
> (blank)


All I see is Privacy/ beta, non of that other stuff.


----------



## Rapt0r

schatham said:


> All I see is Privacy/ beta, non of that other stuff.


 Interestingly, my account details now also say the same thing as yours. Hmm. Though I see the Case opened from my email request is still open. I suspect things are in flux right now and will eventually be sorted out.


----------



## Soccerman99

TiVo_Ted said:


> ...For instance, the upcoming TiVo EDGE will only support TE4 and beyond. It will never be able to be downgraded to TE3.


Interesting that you said the Tivo Edge does not support TE3. TE3/4 are just like operating systems. It's not like newer faster hardware can't support an older OS, so this restriction must be built into the interface. The point here is to *FORCE* users into the new paradigm of pre-ads, which is revenue for Tivo.

I personally have 4 active Tivos, only one of which is on TE3/4. The remaining 3 are on the original version of the Tivo interface. Autoskip is great, but let's face it, if you use cable, 90+% of shows don't have skip, so there is little reason to switch to TE4. Admittedly, I hate the New Experience interfaces anyway.


----------



## Fofer

I use my Roamio Plus (upgraded to 3TB) on TE4 with cable and a lot more than 10% of my recordings have auto-skip, and I love it. I also love CEC, which made my remote control setup more elegant. Both of these came with TE4. I also vastly prefer the TE4 interface as the TE3 one was ugly and old-fashioned, kind of embarrassing, some settings screens were still in SD. TE4 feels streamlined and snappier too. I regret being influenced by those who were trashing it here, and now I wish I taken the plunge sooner.

Since we can opt-out of these pre-roll ads I don’t regret upgrading to TE4, it kind of seems like a non-issue. 

However. If / once TiVo actually forces video ads on me that I can’t opt-out of, they lose me as a customer, who has been a continuous customer for almost 20 years now. Hopefully they handle this properly.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Soccerman99 said:


> It's not like newer faster hardware can't support an older OS


You appear to have never worked in the embedded space, where the hardware enablements may be only available with newer versions of the OS. And while it may be possible to backport all sorts of device support, that is a lot of work for little benefit to the company. If you are willing to write the (very big) check for backporting TE3 and pay for continued support, you are, of course, free to contact TiVo and see how many zeros will need to be added before the decimal point (six, seven, eight?) for your custom solution.


----------



## Amnesia

Soccerman99 said:


> Interesting that you said the Tivo Edge does not support TE3. (...) It's not like newer faster hardware can't support an older OS, so this restriction must be built into the interface.


No, it can also be a QA issue. It's much simpler to test/debug if the Edge hardware is only running one version of the software.



Soccerman99 said:


> The point here is to *FORCE* users into the new paradigm of pre-ads, which is revenue for Tivo.


Well, seeing as how this thread is filled with people opting-out of the ads, then it's difficult for me to assume that requiring TE4 on the Edge is to support the ads...


----------



## Soccerman99

Amnesia said:


> No, it can also be a QA issue. It's much simpler to test/debug if the Edge hardware is only running one version of the software.
> 
> Well, seeing as how this thread is filled with people opting-out of the ads, then it's difficult for me to assume that requiring TE4 on the Edge is to support the ads...


"It's much simpler to test/debug if the Edge hardware is only running one version of the software" = lazy / cheap
I did work in the software development industry, but in the web space. We had to test our web app with 10 different browers using 10 different versions for each release. I'm well aware of the QA impacts.

"Well, seeing as how this thread is filled with people opting-out of the ads..." You guys seem a little naive. How long is that going to last? 3 months? 6 months? Yeah, I'll stick with the old version the interface. Before TE3/4. No ads and no need for back button. And yes, I have to press a button for skip - big deal.


----------



## Soccerman99

gary.buhrmaster said:


> You appear to have never worked in the embedded space, where the hardware enablements may be only available with newer versions of the OS.


A Tivo is literally a Linux (variant) device with an embedded program on it. Its basically a PC with a hard drive and the same output ports the Bolt has. Please explain what drastic changes in hardware happened with the Edge that an older version of the program couldn't be run on it. 6 digits?? SMH.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Soccerman99 said:


> Please explain what drastic changes in hardware happened with the Edge that an older version of the program couldn't be run on it.


You don't understand embedded, where you actually do low level hardware enablements (for SoCs, you literally define what pins do what as part of the device initializations and support and have to create device support to deal with the uniqueness that is that particular hardware and you often have to even embeed specific chip timing into the initialization (which varies on each device)).


----------



## Soccerman99

gary.buhrmaster said:


> You don't understand embedded, where you actually do low level hardware enablements...


You are the expert compared to me for sure. And I actually don't care about downgrade ability, since I prefer the non-New Experience interface, which I understand isn't an option anyway.

My overall point here is that these are choices Tivo is making. Some choices I compare to Tivo making it impossible to connect a new e-sata drive to the e-sata port, because they wanted to limit people from easily upgrading their Tivos. (yes I know its not difficult for a hardware geek to open and upgrade the drive, but that does void the warranty.) and yet my Bolt has an e-sata port which will only work with specific drive serial numbers for drives that haven't been sold for close to 8 years.


----------



## NorthAlabama

i would have been shocked if tivo _had _allowed the edge to downgrade to te3, it's not like microsoft offers windows 10 pc owners the option to downgrade to windows 7 if they'd like.


----------



## dswallow

NorthAlabama said:


> i would have been shocked if tivo _had _allowed the edge to downgrade to te3, it's not like microsoft offers windows 10 pc owners the option to downgrade to windows 7 if they'd like.


Actually Microsoft does. For example...

An understanding of both your Microsoft Windows downgrade rights and downgrading from Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 | Dell UK


----------



## NorthAlabama

dswallow said:


> Actually Microsoft does. For example...
> 
> An understanding of both your Microsoft Windows downgrade rights and downgrading from Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 | Dell UK


i stand (sit) corrected. still, i would have been shocked if tivo allowed downgrading on the edge (and i would never personally opt for a downgraded os on a new pc, either).

have fun with windows vista on your new pc...


----------



## schatham

dswallow said:


> Actually Microsoft does. For example...
> 
> An understanding of both your Microsoft Windows downgrade rights and downgrading from Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 | Dell UK


Not really, only specific ones.
*Note*: Other OEM Windows 7 versions (for example, Windows 7 Home Basic and Windows 7 Home Premium) do not include downgrade rights.


----------



## HerronScott

NorthAlabama said:


> would have been shocked if tivo _had _allowed the edge to downgrade to te3, it's not like microsoft offers windows 10 pc owners the option to downgrade to windows 7 if they'd like.





dswallow said:


> Actually Microsoft does. For example...
> 
> An understanding of both your Microsoft Windows downgrade rights and downgrading from Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 | Dell UK


And with new PC hardware, it doesn't matter if Microsoft allows downgrades if you run into driver issues. We had to move to Windows 10 2 years or so ago at work as the new PC's from Dell/Lenovo did not have Windows 7 drivers (we were on the path anyway but had not completed all application testing).

Scott


----------



## DrMac5

Soccerman99 said:


> Autoskip is great, but let's face it, if you use cable, 90+% of shows don't have skip, so there is little reason to switch to TE4.


Interesting, as we have found 90+% of our cable channel recordings DO have skip.

The only cable channel (outside of the sports channels) that doesn't include SKIP for us is MTV.


----------



## krkaufman

DrMac5 said:


> Interesting, as we have found 90+% of our cable channel recordings DO have skip.


Right, likely because TiVo is allocating their skip-tagging resources to the channels and shows their data indicate are most watched. The absolute skip coverage isn't as important as getting the most popular content tagged.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

Seems to me that Tivo could save their support staff time and work by creating an SPS code for turning off the pre-roll ads. In fact I wonder if such a code already (secretly) exists...


----------



## Joe3

NorthAlabama said:


> i stand (sit) corrected. still, i would have been shocked if tivo allowed downgrading on the edge (and i would never personally opt for a downgraded os on a new pc, either).
> 
> have fun with windows vista on your new pc...


About not going the a previous version, but in the days, you would have been absolutely right. You would assume and correctly that you were getting the latest and greatest. Everything would be an upgrade as increased processing speeds were chased every few years with an ever expanding slate of more functionality and
Speed.

I don't know what happened, but I know it's not that way today. I strongly suspect companies are lining their pockets with cheap labor, and outcome is garbage in and garbage out. Therefore, the wise stays with what works. The version of what has been proven to work for them and the borderline scams be damned.


----------



## CloudAtlas

dswallow said:


> Actually Microsoft does. For example...
> 
> An understanding of both your Microsoft Windows downgrade rights and downgrading from Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 | Dell UK


Technically a downgrade but it's so limited. All it's doing is blowing away your current OS setup and installing a brand new OS. Now go and find old OS device drivers.

*1) Did You Upgrade to Windows 10 from Windows 8.1 and want to go back to Windows 8.1?*
*Note: *This is* only available for the first month after upgrading *and is only compatible with Windows 8.1.

*2) Did you purchase a system with Windows 10 and want to use Windows 8.1 instead?*
You will have to replace Windows 10 with a fresh installation of Windows 8.1 using original installation media.

"*At* _*this point you need to configure your system by installing your backups and software and ensuring the correct drivers are installed."*_


----------



## CloudAtlas

Soccerman99 said:


> "It's much simpler to test/debug if the Edge hardware is only running one version of the software" = lazy /


Do you honestly believe TE3 would just run on EDGE hardware As-Is?

TE3 is NOT a standalone executable like a Windows/Linux/iOS/Android app. It's many executables running on a custom stripped down Linux OS including kernel mods (loadable device drivers).

Just for starters the underlying custom Linux OS would need to be upgraded from the current TE3 version so that newer hardware (SoC) had working device drivers. What company would be stupid enough to even entertain this idea?

We haven't even gotten to all the staff needed for this endeavor. Who needs these people working on new upcoming TE4 code when we can have them working on a previous deprecated TE3 release?

Then there's cost. Each developers make $100k+ Not including benefits. A family insurance plan now costs companies on average $20k.


----------



## Diana Collins

Soccerman99 said:


> A Tivo is literally a Linux (variant) device with an embedded program on it. Its basically a PC with a hard drive and the same output ports the Bolt has. Please explain what drastic changes in hardware happened with the Edge that an older version of the program couldn't be run on it. 6 digits?? SMH.


TiVos are most definitely NOT "basically a PC". They are what are called "embedded" systems. About 90% of the system is on ONE integrated circuit. Unlike a PC there is no standard BIOS, no UEFI interface. Every version of SoC is not just a CPU, but includes the memory controller (and sometimes RAM), disk controller, etc. The nearest PC analogy would be to combine the CPU and the north and south bridge chips (and just look at all the different north bridge chips that have been used by PC manufacturers, and they are TRYING to be compatible with each other). Then you have to add drivers for all the peripherals (cable card, HDMI subsystem, etc). As has been said, it is quite probable that they have only ported TE4 to the new hardware, which could mean a later version of Linux, newer drivers for the SOC, new code for the peripherals, etc. If I were running TiVo I wouldn't spend the time and money to port TE3 (deprecated technology) to the new hardware.


----------



## trip1eX

I still haven't seen an ad on my Roamio Plus.


----------



## johnfasc

trip1eX said:


> I still haven't seen an ad on my Roamio Plus.


No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


----------



## Narkul

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


I hate the ads that show up on Prime, but then I realize I'm paying for a 2 day shipping service with a video service thrown in.


----------



## RoamioJeff

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


----------



## Fofer

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


Yes, because that's Amazon's content and when we subscribed to Amazon Prime and got access to that content, we understood the deal and the value proposition involved.

TiVo is inserting their own new advertising into recordings, while allowing us to skip (and auto-skip) the original ones. It's just slimy and not customer-friendly, in the slightest.


----------



## Amnesia

johnfasc said:


> People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows.


"Mostly"? Are you saying that they sometimes run an ad for something else?


----------



## aaronwt

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


I've always hated that. Just like when HBo, Showtime etc. does it too. It's still an advertisement.


----------



## Rhampton11

Have the latest Bolt OTA and 3 mini units. Pre roll ads have been running on the mini units for 3 weeks or so. None on Bolt OTA.


----------



## krkaufman

Rhampton11 said:


> Have the latest Bolt OTA and 3 mini units. Pre roll ads have been running on the mini units for 3 weeks or so. None on Bolt OTA.


Mini VOX or older models?


----------



## Rhampton11

Mini VOX TCDA95000


----------



## HerronScott

Soccerman99 said:


> Autoskip is great, but let's face it, if you use cable, 90+% of shows don't have skip, so there is little reason to switch to TE4. Admittedly, I hate the New Experience interfaces anyway.





DrMac5 said:


> Interesting, as we have found 90+% of our cable channel recordings DO have skip.


Our experience is like DrMac5. Most of the shows that we record have skip available.

Scott


----------



## V7Goose

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


The difference seems rather obvious to me:

*First, Amazon* is their own entity, and they just serve up their "own" content however they want. 
*Vs. TiVo* that is simply a glorified VCR that from the very beginning was intended to do little more than play and record EXACTLY what your house was receiving and showing on your TV WITHOUT CHANGING IT IN ANY WAY. None of us liked the ever increasing commercials in the TV shows, but they had always been there and we were conditioned to accept that we could do nothing about them except watch PBS or maybe pay the bloodsuckers for premium movie channels. Neither TiVo nor our old VCRs did anything at all to make it WORSE.

The extra-cost value in TiVo has ALWAYS been nothing more than easier ways to find, record, and watch existing TV content. They have added more stuff like apps that I neither care about nor have to use in the course of normal TV watching. Their new inserted commercials need to be THERE - in a part of the system I am not forced to use!

*Second, Amazon* is an extra pay service to watch something different than everybody gets from normal TV service. You don't have to use Amazon (or any other extra-cost service) to watch anything if you object to the way they serve it to you. And refusing to pay for their new and objectionable content does NOT affect your normal TV viewing options.
*Vs. TiVo* - where refusing to accept their new force-fed inserted commercials would require me to STOP using something I had already paid for! (ignoring for the moment that they are letting some of us opt-out).

How happy would you have been if your old VCR had gotten a software update that suddenly caused it to start recording its OWN UNWANTED COMMERCIALS at the beginning of every show your recorded???

*Third, Amazon* didn't sell you their new service with the implied contract that they would not MODIFY what you wanted to watch by inserting their own UNWANTED added commercials. Amazon commercials are the equivalent of the irritating previews on a DVD - you know they are going to be there when you buy it - you have the choice to not buy it or accept it.  It is not the same thing as if your DVDs never had the previews on them, but after an online update to your DVD player you were now forced to wade through all this new crap just to get to the movie that y ou used to be able to watch WITHOUT it. But that IS EXACTLY what TiVo has done to existing customers.

*Fourth, Amazon* did not sucker you into giving them THOUSANDS of dollars to lock in their service BEFORE they started shoving their commercials at you.

The fact that TiVo has given some of us a way to beg them to remove this garbage only makes what they have done marginally acceptable. I should NOT have had to beg/demand that they stop doing this with the equipment that I ALREADY paid for, but the fact that I did get this crap removed is the only reason I am still using my TiVo.


----------



## ufo4sale

Any way to get TiVo off life support I’m all for. So I say, bring on the ads.


----------



## bbrown9

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


One difference is that I didn't pay premium prices for hardware plus service to watch amazon video. I paid for prime shipping and got video thrown in as a bonus. 
Another difference is that the ads Amazon shows are trailers for their other content. They are not ads for other products or even other Amazon services.

That said, I don't like pre-roll ads, but it's situational. Because of the high price I paid for TiVo equipment and service, their pre-roll ads are not just annoyoing. They are infuriating. If the ads were offered as a way to bring-down initial investment costs for new customers or were offered as a way to bring down subscription fees with the option to pay higher to go ad-free, that would be one thing. And maybe that is their overall intent further down the road once this "beta-test" of the "feature" is finished. I don't know. But for me, it's just one more reason to stay on TE3 and not purchase an Edge. I could call and opt-out (Assuming they don't stop doing that) but that makes me have to deal with contacting CS and enduring at least 3 days of pre-roll ads. No thanks.

If Amazon separated out their video from prime membership and I had to pay a high fee for video in addition to watching their ads (especially if their ads were for other products and not just trailers for content), I would drop the video subscription.


----------



## Joe3

ufo4sale said:


> Any way to get TiVo off life support I'm all for. So I say, bring on the ads.


Whatever happened to the tried and true way of it, let them earn it by selling a product that the public can use to its fullest. Worked like since forever


----------



## bobfrank

I wonder how many of those here who are complaining loudabout the pre-roll ads have paid to have ads remove from TCF here.


Joe3 said:


> Whatever happened to the tried and true way of it, let them earn it by selling a product that the public can use to its fullest. Worked like since forever


What happened, or is happening, is that good enough is the mortal enemy of great. VHS was good enough and killed betamax. Unfortunately for Tivo, it looks like cable DVRs are good enough and are in the process of killing Tivo.


----------



## mishafp

I'm planning on getting the TIVO Edge, and was going back and forth between the lifetime (which I have always gotten before), and the annual or monthly option. I was pretty much on the fence about this choice before, going back and forth- so my question is does anyone have a sense as to whether getting lifetime will make it more likely that I will get these ads removed, once they finally hit my account? If it is more likely that I can get these ads removed with lifetime, that would make my choice easier.


----------



## dougtv

johnfasc said:


> No ads on my 1tb Roamio either,, yet. But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


The analogy to me is like turning on my VCR in 1996 getting ready to watch last night's recorded ER and right after I put the VHS tape in, some guy knocks at my front door and I walk over and answer it and he goes "can I have a minute of you're time" and I'm like no dude, I'm about to watch ER" and responds "but it won't take long"..."i just want to know who your home insurance program..." and I'm finally like "dude I am happy with my long distance provider, but thank you" Then I try to politely close the door and sit back down on my couch and he opens my door and stands in front of my TV and is like "no seriously only 30 more seconds of your time then you can have your remote control back play your VHS tape to watch your recorded program."

This is EXACTLY how people feel in 2019/2020 trying to have their own bought TiVo to play their own scheduled recordings from their own physical hard drives.


----------



## krkaufman

dougtv said:


> The analogy to me is like turning on my VCR in 1996 getting ready to watch last night's recorded ER and right after I put the VHS tape in, some guy knocks at my front door and I walk over and answer it and he goes "can I have a minute of you're time" and I'm like no dude, I'm about to watch ER" and responds "but it won't take long"..."i just want to know who your home insurance program..." and I'm finally like "dude I am happy with my long distance provider, but thank you" Then I try to politely close the door and sit back down on my couch and he opens my door and stands in front of my TV and is like "no seriously only 30 more seconds of your time then you can have your remote control back play your VHS tape to watch your recorded program."
> 
> This is EXACTLY how people feel in 2019/2020 trying to have their own bought TiVo to play their own scheduled recordings from their own physical hard drives.


The analogy breaks down at the point where you didn't close the door (hang up the phone, etc) after "I'm like no dude," since you can skip the pre-roll ads.


----------



## longrider

I must be one of the very few who dont think its that big of a deal. I am not about to cancel my service over this, I FF at the beginning of almost every recording so what is an extra 2 seconds of FF?? I dont like the idea but it is so easy to work around I am not going to blow my top over it


----------



## tenthplanet

longrider said:


> I must be one of the very few who dont think its that big of a deal. I am not about to cancel my service over this, I FF at the beginning of almost every recording so what is an extra 2 seconds of FF?? I dont like the idea but it is so easy to work around I am not going to blow my top over it


Sanity prevails


----------



## Fofer

Everyone “blows their top” in different ways, over different things.

But to deny that this is a slippery slope seems intellectually disingenuous to me.


----------



## Amnesia

mishafp said:


> (...) so my question is does anyone have a sense as to whether getting lifetime will make it more likely that I will get these ads removed, once they finally hit my account? If it is more likely that I can get these ads removed with lifetime, that would make my choice easier.


As far as I can tell, everyone who has requested for the ads to be removed --- whether they're on lifetime or month-to-month --- have had their requests honored.

If they were going to treat people with lifetime differently in the future, it seems to be the consensus of this thread that having lifetime would make it *less* likely that they would remove ads (since they already have your money and therefore don't need to listen to you)


----------



## johnfasc

Wow! I opened up a can of whatever for sure. I know the Amazon pre ads are not ads but in a way they still are for their own product. No biggie. I know we spend a lot of cash, some more than others on the Tivo product. We also spend a lot on the total Amazon products. If you think the cash you give Amazon is only for shipping that is a sad misconception. Just about every store is giving free or almost free shipping to compete without a membership fee. But still its tough to beat one or two day shipping. Although my last order took 6 days! What? yep. 
And no one should have to beg to have ads removed. I won't go that course if my OTA roamio gets the ads. I will treat it like the Amazon ads. Besides,I havent seen a commercial since I started using Tivo so nothing will change in this household. Even before the skip button, I would just ff through them. And the strangest thing is....I still buy Coke or Pepsi without seeing any ads.


----------



## John9871

Still getting pre-roll ads (minus the blue circle) It has been way past the 3 days they said, it would take last time I called on September 30th.

Will have to call back up on monday and complain yet again!


----------



## mntvjunkie

johnfasc said:


> Wow! I opened up a can of whatever for sure. I know the Amazon pre ads are not ads but in a way they still are for their own product. No biggie. I know we spend a lot of cash, some more than others on the Tivo product. We also spend a lot on the total Amazon products. If you think the cash you give Amazon is only for shipping that is a sad misconception. Just about every store is giving free or almost free shipping to compete without a membership fee. But still its tough to beat one or two day shipping. Although my last order took 6 days! What? yep.
> And no one should have to beg to have ads removed. I won't go that course if my OTA roamio gets the ads. I will treat it like the Amazon ads. Besides,I havent seen a commercial since I started using Tivo so nothing will change in this household. Even before the skip button, I would just ff through them. And the strangest thing is....I still buy Coke or Pepsi without seeing any ads.


I think trying to compare the Amazon Pre-Roll ads with the Tivo ones is really not an apples-to-apples comparison. I view the ads on Amazon no different than seeing a preview for another show (HBO does something similar). They are doing it on a service that costs $10 a month or less, and includes free shipping, as well as programming through Prime Video.

A better comparison is BUYING a show on Prime Video (yes, you can do this). When I BUY a show on Amazon, I don't get pre-roll ads. I BOUGHT a Tivo, I paid for service, yet still get pre-roll ads. I don't even think I would have a problem with this on NEW boxes, as long as I know what I am getting myself into, but they don't really even spell this out on their website. Furthermore, I am concerned as a FAN of Tivo because this is getting a LOT of bad press. Listening to Leo Laporte today, he was talking about replacing his Tivo because he doesn't trust the new owners of Tivo to handle the brand properly. And he's not the only one, I was listening to a podcast called "Cordkillers" where they basically said this felt very much like a "milk the brand for what you can before it dies, because it's going to die". I understand the business model needs to evolve, but this isn't the way to do that.

And as a fan, this has gotten me to take a serious look at what is available to me. Know what I found? X1 is actually REALLY good. I wouldn't even have done that if not for this change.


----------



## slice1900

longrider said:


> I must be one of the very few who dont think its that big of a deal. I am not about to cancel my service over this, I FF at the beginning of almost every recording so what is an extra 2 seconds of FF?? I dont like the idea but it is so easy to work around I am not going to blow my top over it


If that's all it ever is, sure a single pre-roll ad isn't a big deal.

But it won't be all it ever is, guaranteed. If people take this lying down they won't be just the first time you play something but every time you play it. And eventually more than one. They'll also insert ads in the guide. Before long it will frustrating to look through the guide because there will be so many ads in the way. Next they'll put in ads for "related programming" anytime you hit select on a program to set up a recording. Recording a college football game? Maybe it'll pop up an ad for another game, or an Amazon link for jerseys and mugs for one of the teams featured in that game. And so forth.

I'm sure people back in the 50s when there weren't really "ads" as we know them today but instead shows were sponsored by some cigarette company or whatever and the messages included in the programming weren't too bothered by the first true 30 second commercial break. If they saw some of the cable TV channels today where 10 minute ad breaks aren't completely unheard of (yes, I've had to do as many as twenty 30 second skips before on a movie recorded on Spike or BET!) they'd be horrified they took that first 30 second ad break lying down!


----------



## TKnight206

slice1900 said:


> If that's all it ever is, sure a single pre-roll ad isn't a big deal.
> 
> But it won't be all it ever is, guaranteed. If people take this lying down they won't be just the first time you play something but every time you play it. And eventually more than one. They'll also insert ads in the guide. Before long it will frustrating to look through the guide because there will be so many ads in the way. Next they'll put in ads for "related programming" anytime you hit select on a program to set up a recording. Recording a college football game? Maybe it'll pop up an ad for another game, or an Amazon link for jerseys and mugs for one of the teams featured in that game. And so forth.
> 
> I'm sure people back in the 50s when there weren't really "ads" as we know them today but instead shows were sponsored by some cigarette company or whatever and the messages included in the programming weren't too bothered by the first true 30 second commercial break. If they saw some of the cable TV channels today where 10 minute ad breaks aren't completely unheard of (yes, I've had to do as many as twenty 30 second skips before on a movie recorded on Spike or BET!) they'd be horrified they took that first 30 second ad break lying down!


We've had ads in the Discovery Bar (e.g. for McDonald's if I recall), along with TiVo Central menu ads, episode folder ads, pause ads, and ads when deleting an episode. These ads ruin the experience. I'd rather see them up the subscription rates (and future lifetime rates) rather than inundate the interface with ads.

Too frequent commercial breaks is what gets me. What Adult Swim does with a single mid-show commercial break is nice. Once I skip over that, I'm good.

Instead of focusing on adding ads to the interface, I'd rather see them fix the many guide problems they've been having. It's getting much worse. It feels like I'm spending minutes per day on occasion canceling shows that aren't new or just plain wrong. What's annoying is when an episode title differs a little, and they consider it new, even if it's a decade old rerun.

My Comcast legacy DVR had the ability to skip five minutes. This is something I really miss, and would be useful in long commercial break situations that you've mentioned.


----------



## slice1900

TKnight206 said:


> My Comcast legacy DVR had the ability to skip five minutes. This is something I really miss, and would be useful in long commercial break situations that you've mentioned.


Why? I can literally hit the 30 skip button 10 times in a second no problem. The trick isn't hitting it 10 times quickly, it is knowing WHEN you can hit it 10 times quickly without skipping too far. When I record something on COMET I'll often see six or seven minute breaks requiring 12 or 14 skips - but they'll throw in a random short break of two minutes to **** with you, usually at the top of the hour though so I kind of know when to expect it.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a big deal. I can skip most any commercial break of random length in no more than 3-4 seconds and usually more like 1-2, including hitting the 30 skip, seeing the frame for a split second and hitting it again as necessary, then hitting the 8 second back button a few times when I've gone a bit too far. Once in a while I'll mess up and think I've hit the program and it is a commercial, or vice versa, and it takes 15 seconds to find my place, but that's rare. This is why I never really cared all that much about skip mode, it was fixing a problem I don't have. I'll use it if it is there, but I don't care if it isn't.


----------



## TKnight206

slice1900 said:


> Why? I can literally hit the 30 skip button 10 times in a second no problem. The trick isn't hitting it 10 times quickly, it is knowing WHEN you can hit it 10 times quickly without skipping too far. When I record something on COMET I'll often see six or seven minute breaks requiring 12 or 14 skips - but they'll throw in a random short break of two minutes to **** with you, usually at the top of the hour though so I kind of know when to expect it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, this isn't a big deal. I can skip most any commercial break of random length in no more than 3-4 seconds and usually more like 1-2, including hitting the 30 skip, seeing the frame for a split second and hitting it again as necessary, then hitting the 8 second back button a few times when I've gone a bit too far. Once in a while I'll mess up and think I've hit the program and it is a commercial, or vice versa, and it takes 15 seconds to find my place, but that's rare. This is why I never really cared all that much about skip mode, it was fixing a problem I don't have. I'll use it if it is there, but I don't care if it isn't.


A five minute skip would require nine less button pushes. It'd be less wear on the buttons. If only we could use the Channel Up and Down buttons when SkipMode isn't available to do five forward and back.


----------



## krkaufman

TKnight206 said:


> A five minute skip would require nine less button pushes. It'd be less wear on the buttons. If only we could use the Channel Up and Down buttons when SkipMode isn't available to do five forward and back.


Get a VOX Remote and TE4.


----------



## barnabas1969

tarheelblue32 said:


> Oh stop being so dramatic. I don't like the pre-roll ads anymore than you do, but you're not being forced to watch them. You can skip them with a single button push or you can call TiVo and get them removed.


Sorry for the late reply. Life happens.

What button skips this commercial? I've tried the 30-second skip button, but it didn't do anything.

EDIT: After spending a lot of time reading every post after my last post, which was more than 10 days ago, I learned that FFWD will skip the TiVo-imposed commercial.


----------



## barnabas1969

dianebrat said:


> So what are you going to do with your $7.35?
> I swear we need the equivalent to the Godwin rule that closes a thread for stupidity the minute the phrase "Class Action Suit" is uttered as a possible solution.
> 
> The one thing that has been very apparent is the behavior of TCF members, there are folks I've always respected as reasonable and level headed, and they're the same in this volatile thread, and the folks that do not have those traits have also behaved exactly as I'd expected.


Ummm... when I wrote "campaign", I was talking about calling and writing TiVo to protest this. If enough of their customers complain, they might stop doing it. I never mentioned a class action lawsuit. I agree with you completely that the only people who benefit from a class action suit are the lawyers.


----------



## Adam C.

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but looks like Roku TV's are getting into the ad game. Sounds like they can be turned off, and they only pop up on live OTA TV during regular commercials that are already there.

Roku Adds Interactive Pop-Up Ads to OTA TV on Roku TVs - Cord Cutters News


----------



## barnabas1969

Update:

Since my most recent post on this topic, way back on page 46, I haven't had time to login here. Life happens.

So... tonight I had some time to login here and read.

As I read posts on pages 46 thru 61, I learned that I can call TiVo support to "opt-out" from these commercials.

I am currently in the middle east, and it is approx 9pm here... but it is only 10am Pacific Time (PDT), so... since the TiVo support site says that they are open 8am-5pm on weekends (PDT), I decided to give them a call.

After about a 6 minute wait on hold, I was connected to a young man who (obviously) was not an American. To my ear, he sounded like a Filipino, but I was not 100% certain. His English accent was a blend of British-English and Filipino-English.

I told him that I have been seeing these "forced" commercials before I am allowed to watch my previously-recorded TV shows, and that I had read that if I call TiVo support, that they can stop this from happening.

At first, he did not seem to understand what I was talking about... until I told him that I want to "opt-out" of these commercials. At that point, he immediately understood why I was calling.

He put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back with the standard line about the fact that it will take "72 hours" until I will see a change.

I made some small talk with him, and told him that I am away from my home in America... and then I asked him where he is located. He told me that he is in the Philippines.

So, even though I have only been a TiVo customer for a month or two, he told me that I will no longer see these commercials after "72 hours".

I will post back here when I am back home.


----------



## barnabas1969

whoareyou_1999 said:


> If this keeps TIVO alive for many more years, ok. It is what it is.
> 
> Here's my main problem with all of this. I pay for service which supposedly includes support.
> I have 5 TIVO minis, not one of them have EVER worked properly for streaming.
> 
> So where is the support / development to fix these issues? What prevents fixing these issues?
> 
> And now, more revenue for TIVO. Will any of that be devoted to improved support?
> 
> Now, I've moved on and simply purchased other streaming devices, but that shouldn't have been necessary.
> 
> So, if TIVO is not going to properly support their streaming services, then shut them down. Take them off the boxes and save some money that way, before sticking on those darn commercials.


This is entirely off-topic, so mods are free to move this to a new thread.
@whoareyou_1999, please tell me what problems you are experiencing with streaming on your Mini's.

I have recently joined this club of TiVo users, and I bought two TiVo minis. I have only set-up one of them so-far, and it works perfectly with live TV, previously-recorded shows (from Cable TV), and Netflix/Amazon.

What problems have you experienced with streaming on the Mini?


----------



## barnabas1969

JKR123 said:


> Thanks so much for the info. (If I can get this fixed and then my tuning adapter issue fixed I will be back in business!)





tarheelblue32 said:


> Tuning adapter issues are never truly fixed, but merely sent into remission.


Back when I lived in Florida, I used Windows Media Center with a variety of tuners.

Regarding Tuning Adapers...

The most important thing for the Tuning Adapter is the upstream transmit power. If it is between 35-50dBA, this is perfect. If the upstream transmit power is higher than 50dbA, your tuning adapter won't work reliably, and you need to convince your cable provider to fix the problem.

Also, the downstream signal strength should be between -7dB and +7dB (0dB is perfect)

I had to scream bloody hell until my cable company sent someone to fix the problems in my neighborhood. It was an older neighborhood. When they finally corrected all of the wiring problems in my neighborhood... my tuning adapters worked very well.

With one caveat...

The Tuning Adapter software was not perfect, and it required a reboot once very 2 or 3 months.

I found a way to send a HTTP request to the Tuning Adapters which caused them to reboot.

I don't remember how to to this. I have not had Tuning Adapers since 2015. I will search for the method to cause the TA to reboot.


----------



## JoeKustra

barnabas1969 said:


> This is entirely off-topic, so mods are free to move this to a new thread.
> What problems have you experienced with streaming on the Mini?


Please move to the Mini forum. Please.


----------



## Wayoverpar1

longrider said:


> I must be one of the very few who dont think its that big of a deal. I am not about to cancel my service over this, I FF at the beginning of almost every recording so what is an extra 2 seconds of FF?? I dont like the idea but it is so easy to work around I am not going to blow my top over it


I'm totally agree with you. The only objection I have is the increased volume in some of the pre-roll ads. I'ts only a second until I FF, but it's still an assault on my eardrums.


----------



## JoeKustra

Wayoverpar1 said:


> I'm totally agree with you. The only objection I have is the increased volume in some of the pre-roll ads. I'ts only a second until I FF, but it's still an assault on my eardrums.


That's weird. Can you tell if the ads have a different audio track than your recording? I'm thinking that it may be switching you to DD from PCM, which may cause a change in volume.


----------



## Wayoverpar1

I'm set to PCM, but I think the inserted ads are streamed.


----------



## JoeKustra

Wayoverpar1 said:


> I'm set to PCM, but I think the inserted ads are streamed.


If by streamed you mean via internet, there's high probability they are PCM 2.0 also.
Funny. I'm house sitting right now and my sister has DTV. When the ads come on they are normal volume until the local ads clobber them. Then the volume is very low. I have ads on my home feed that get clobbered too, but there is no volume change since they are DD 2.0 and normal audio is DD 5.1.


----------



## schatham

I will post my message after everyone watches this commercial.


----------



## JoeKustra

schatham said:


> I will post my message after everyone watches this commercial.


Everyone?


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> Everyone?


That's the new TiVo business model--so, get you friends and family to watch their pre-rolls.


----------



## CloudAtlas

barnabas1969 said:


> Ummm... when I wrote "campaign", I was talking about calling and writing TiVo to protest this. If enough of their customers complain, they might stop doing it. I never mentioned a class action lawsuit. I agree with you completely that the only people who benefit from a class action suit are the lawyers.


Taking Ted at his word if these ads are needed to keep TiVO retail viable then what's the alternative? You'd have to raise prices a decent amount on low volume hardware like a TiVo DVR to offset costs and that more than likely would hurt sales.

I'm not thrilled about a pre-roll ad but the idea that this is a cash grab and Tivos greedy is dispelled by reading their quarterly financial statements showing hardware revenue of only $1.7M (R&D was $38M!) in the Qtr ending June 30th. That's not even 7 thousand $250 DVRs.


----------



## slowbiscuit

johnfasc said:


> But just thinking about this while watching Amazon Prime. People realize before every Prime show, Amazon runs an ad mostly about one of their own shows. That has been ongoing. I never seen anyone complain about that on any blog. Is there a difference what TiVo is doing?


Uh, yeah. Everyone else owns/streams content, and nobody pays for 'lifetime' service.


----------



## slowbiscuit

ufo4sale said:


> Any way to get TiVo off life support I'm all for. So I say, bring on the ads.


Wow another apologist. This is how stuff goes to ****e.


----------



## aaronwt

Adam C. said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but looks like Roku TV's are getting into the ad game. Sounds like they can be turned off, and they only pop up on live OTA TV during regular commercials that are already there.
> 
> Roku Adds Interactive Pop-Up Ads to OTA TV on Roku TVs - Cord Cutters News


But that is live tv anyway. Anyone watching live tv is going to see commercials. Personally I hate live TV. Especially with sports.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## Mikeguy

slowbiscuit said:


> ufo4sale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any way to get TiVo off life support I'm all for. So I say, bring on the ads.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow another apologist. This is how stuff goes to ****e.
Click to expand...

But, as was explained, it's not being an apologist. It's being a survivalist.


----------



## ej42137

If TiVo doesn't stop doing this, it's time to move on to streaming and bid recording video farewell.


----------



## ShoutingMan

I have a TiVo Roamio. Is there a way to turn off software updates to try and avoid getting this new "feature"? I've not seen it on my system yet. Thanks  (I admit I haven't read all 60+ pages of the thread yet.)


----------



## Fofer

ShoutingMan said:


> I have a TiVo Roamio. Is there a way to turn off software updates to try and avoid getting this new "feature"? I've not seen it on my system yet. Thanks  (I admit I haven't read all 60+ pages of the thread yet.)


Are you on TE3 or TE4/Hydra?


----------



## Rapt0r

Rapt0r said:


> I was aware (from having read through this thread) and had planned to do so. Though, FWIW, since posting I've noticed only a brief spinning blue symbol and no ads, with pretty much every recent recording. I do not think my post had any impact, but I wonder if they have backed off given all the contacts. I still intend to follow up with them, though I suspect all our efforts will come to nothing on this, and they are simply getting their ducks in a row. Others still receiving pre-roll ads?


An update. Since my original post on this issue I've not received any subsequent ads, though I am now receiving a brief nonspecific graphic prior to my recorded content. I did request that they remove the pre-roll ads, which was agreed to and taking effect within 72 hours. My assumption regarding the brief graphic is that it's a placeholder for future ads, which I suspect is unfortunately inevitable.


----------



## tenthplanet

schatham said:


> I will post my message after everyone watches this commercial.


Sorry fast forwarded past it.


----------



## Mikeguy

ShoutingMan said:


> I have a TiVo Roamio. Is there a way to turn off software updates to try and avoid getting this new "feature"? I've not seen it on my system yet. Thanks  (I admit I haven't read all 60+ pages of the thread yet.)


Currently, there are no plans on its coming to the TE3 user interface. If you're on TE4 (the most modern user interface) and the ads hit your box (you need to wait until that point), you can telephone TiVo customer support and ask to be opted out of the ads.


----------



## Amnesia

Mikeguy said:


> Currently, there are no plans on its coming to the TE3 user interface.


No announced plans.


----------



## eileenak

I don't understand how the folks at Tivo can think users won't leave if they start adding commercials on top of selling the most expensive DVRs on the market with the most expensive fees already. 

All I would have to do is turn off the service and get a dvr from my cable provider. Save money in the process.

I've been on a slow burn ever since I heard it was coming. Soon as it shows up they get a call to turn off service from my house.


----------



## Anotherpyr

The bigger question is how will it impact edge sales. The timing couldn’t be worse. At $950 for an all in cable box with pre roll ads I’d pass.


----------



## dianebrat

eileenak said:


> I don't understand how the folks at Tivo can think users won't leave if they start adding commercials on top of selling the most expensive DVRs on the market with the most expensive fees already.
> All I would have to do is turn off the service and get a dvr from my cable provider. Save money in the process.
> I've been on a slow burn ever since I heard it was coming. Soon as it shows up they get a call to turn off service from my house.


Because we don't matter, we're their test kitchen, even if 50% of us leave it's a minuscule hit to the balance sheet.


----------



## aaronwt

eileenak said:


> I don't understand how the folks at Tivo can think users won't leave if they start adding commercials on top of selling the most expensive DVRs on the market with the most expensive fees already.
> 
> All I would have to do is turn off the service and get a dvr from my cable provider. Save money in the process.
> 
> I've been on a slow burn ever since I heard it was coming. Soon as it shows up they get a call to turn off service from my house.


I don't know about saving money. By using TiVos with cable over the last thirteen years, instead of renting boxes from Comcast and FiOS, I've saved thousands.
The cable boxes are very expensive to rent. And you keep paying that every month. It easily would have been more expensive than my TiVos and cable cards.


----------



## Phil T

I have been reading here about the pre-roll ads. I have 2 Bolts and 2 minis and have yet to see it and we watched a lot of newly recorded content this weekend.


----------



## CloudAtlas

aaronwt said:


> I don't know about saving money. By using TiVos with cable over the last thirteen years, instead of renting boxes from Comcast and FiOS, I've saved thousands.
> The cable boxes are very expensive to rent. And you keep paying that every month. It easily would have been more expensive than my TiVos and cable cards.


Exactly, but it's more than just saving money. With TiVO you get a better experience with DVR enhancements you soon take for granted. You get quarterly software updates and the occasional new app. I still remember how cool it was when we got HBOGo. No the apps aren't as good as on Roku/Apple TV but for some, like myself, it works on *every* TV w/o switching inputs to another box.

Every cable provider I've ever had in the Tri-state area wanted $8-10 per TV box. From TWC/Spectrum and CableVision to FIOS and TiVO provider RCN. Some also wanted $19.99 for "DVR service." And if you managed to get a discount on those fees you lost discounts elsewhere in the package including FREE HBO, Showtime, etc.

This is my experience with using Cable boxes from the 90's until 2012. And TiVO for the past 8 years (also TiVO for 3 months in 2004.)


----------



## Mikeguy

dianebrat said:


> Because we don't matter, we're their test kitchen, even if 50% of us leave it's a minuscule hit to the balance sheet.


But I would guess that TiVo still is sensitive to these matters. This is, after all, the company that replaced a standard composite jack output on its Roamio box with a uni-jack output, seemingly to save the cost of the jacks.


----------



## CloudAtlas

Mikeguy said:


> But I would guess that TiVo still is sensitive to these matters. This is, after all, the company that replaced a standard composite jack output on its Roamio box with a uni-jack output, seemingly to save the cost of the jacks.


Almost certainly this was the motherboard makers decision.


----------



## Fofer

CloudAtlas said:


> No the apps aren't as good as on Roku/Apple TV but for some, like myself, it works on *every* TV w/o switching inputs to another box.l.)


Switching inputs isn't that bad. Especially with CEC (Thanks to TE4/Hydra!)

A universal remote control programmed properly makes this a non-issue too, and putting up with the slow, crappy apps is far big of a price to pay, simply to avoid the the small "issue" of "switching inputs to another box." Especially when that other box runs the apps soooooo much better, and has an App Store for many more!


----------



## JackMcC

Fofer said:


> Switching inputs isn't that bad. Especially with CEC (Thanks to TE4/Hydra!)


Iv had HDMI CEC control via a Bose 535 lifestyle system on TE3 using a Roamio Basic for the last year and half now. Is this only being advertised for TE4?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

JackMcC said:


> Iv had HDMI CEC control via a Bose 535 lifestyle system on TE3 using a Roamio Basic for the last year and half now. Is this only being advertised for TE4?


Yes, and I'm skeptical that what you're experiencing is actually CEC. It could be that your Bose 535 is bridging the gap.

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Knowledge/CEC-and-Wake-with-TiVo-button

Do you have a "wake with TiVo" setting under remote control setup on your Roamio?


----------



## jwort93

Is there any video available of what this pre-roll ad looks like, experience wise? I'm considering coming back to TiVo, and I want to see what this looks like before making a decision.


----------



## krkaufman

eileenak said:


> I've been on a slow burn ever since I heard it was coming. Soon as it shows up they get a call to turn off service from my house.


A call to cancel service will likely take about the same amount of time as a call to opt-out of the pre-roll ads.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

eileenak said:


> I don't understand how the folks at Tivo can think users won't leave if they start adding commercials on top of selling the most expensive DVRs on the market with the most expensive fees already.


<SARCASM>
Once my local movie theatre started offering (around) an additional 30 minutes of pre-roll ads, adding on to the 20 minutes of (pre-roll) trailers, I never again went to the movie theatre.
</SARCASM>

Do I like the idea (I have not yet seen them) of pre-roll ads? No. Would I cancel service over it, as long as I can ignore them, just like I ignore the (pre-roll) ads in the movie theatre? No.


----------



## schatham

Phil T said:


> I have been reading here about the pre-roll ads. I have 2 Bolts and 2 minis and have yet to see it and we watched a lot of newly recorded content this weekend.


90 day roll out, you will see them if your using Hydra.


----------



## TKnight206

krkaufman said:


> Get a VOX Remote and TE4.


I won't touch Hydra.


----------



## mntvjunkie

eileenak said:


> I don't understand how the folks at Tivo can think users won't leave if they start adding commercials on top of selling the most expensive DVRs on the market with the most expensive fees already.
> 
> All I would have to do is turn off the service and get a dvr from my cable provider. Save money in the process.
> 
> I've been on a slow burn ever since I heard it was coming. Soon as it shows up they get a call to turn off service from my house.


The theory I have heard making the rounds in the tech community is that Tivo already KNOWS they are going to lose retail subs, they are now just trying to milk us for every last penny on our way out.


gary.buhrmaster said:


> <SARCASM>
> Once my local movie theatre started offering (around) an additional 30 minutes of pre-roll ads, adding on to the 20 minutes of (pre-roll) trailers, I never again went to the movie theatre.
> </SARCASM>
> 
> Do I like the idea (I have not yet seen them) of pre-roll ads? No. Would I cancel service over it, as long as I can ignore them, just like I ignore the (pre-roll) ads in the movie theatre? No.


Better comparison - theater across the street has slightly less comfortable seats and a smaller screen but shows no ads before the movie. Which theater do you choose?


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

mntvjunkie said:


> Better comparison - theater across the street has slightly less comfortable seats and a smaller screen but shows no ads before the movie. Which theater do you choose?


Please provide the name and address of that movie theatre across the street from your local megaplex showing the same films that do not show pre-roll trailers.


----------



## CloudAtlas

mntvjunkie said:


> The theory I have heard making the rounds in the tech community is that Tivo already KNOWS they are going to lose retail subs, *they are now just trying to milk us for every last penny on our way out.*


I'll take Ted's explanation of TiVO needing ads to make the low-volume retail channel viable over the above TCF conspiracy theory. With TiVO splitting into two companies in 2020 the hardware side needs to start making money since the patent/litigation side won't be around to subsidize it anymore.


----------



## oryan_dunn

gary.buhrmaster said:


> <SARCASM>
> Once my local movie theatre started offering (around) an additional 30 minutes of pre-roll ads, adding on to the 20 minutes of (pre-roll) trailers, I never again went to the movie theatre.
> </SARCASM>
> 
> Do I like the idea (I have not yet seen them) of pre-roll ads? No. Would I cancel service over it, as long as I can ignore them, just like I ignore the (pre-roll) ads in the movie theatre? No.


No sarcasm tag needed for me. Besides the last Star Wars, I can't remember the last movie I went to see at a theater. Way to expensive (even without snacks) and way too many ads. Our Apple TV has increasingly taken more and more of our TV viewing time pie.

For me, it's really frustrating how the industry just jumps between buzzwords instead of getting the last tech right. The only app that does live streaming right is YouTube. ALL other live streaming sports apps, ESPN, NBC Sports, etc have low frame rate (30p vs 60p), can't rewind, can't start at beginning when coming in in the middle, doesn't remember your place if you have to stop watching, spoiler free way to navigate to watch an event, etc. None of that is rocket science and is easily implementable. Fix that, then go for 4K or 8k.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## opfreak

krkaufman said:


> The analogy breaks down at the point where you didn't close the door (hang up the phone, etc) after "I'm like no dude," since you can skip the pre-roll ads.


You kind of can skip the ad's. You still have to wait for the spinning circle to stop spinning and the ad to stop playing. Its like letting the guy in the door and then kicking them out. Its annoying.

Why do you choose to defend the annoyance? What benefit did you get from this ad?


----------



## opfreak

ufo4sale said:


> Any way to get TiVo off life support I'm all for. So I say, bring on the ads.


YES!, what they should really do is allow you to skip all those TV ads, but insert their own ads after every skip.

Or maybe they skip the TV ads, play their own ads, and then skip the TV ads again. Then all we see are Tivo ads. Brilliant. They can even enable auto tv ad skip on by default, so all you see is TiVo ads

As long as that helps them get off life support its all good.


----------



## mschnebly

opfreak said:


> YES!, what they should really do is allow you to skip all those TV ads, but insert their own ads after every skip.
> 
> Or maybe they skip the TV ads, play their own ads, and then skip the TV ads again. Then all we see are Tivo ads. Brilliant. They can even enable auto tv ad skip on by default, so all you see is TiVo ads
> 
> As long as that helps them get off life support its all good.


LOL Yep and maybe they should just run ads every 5 minutes! They will get off life support and be able to give out a nice bonus to management. Get them off life support and get them a gold plated wheelchair!


----------



## trip1eX

instead of that overlay in the top left corner that says press OK to skip to the next show they should show an ad. lol. I mean it's basically an ad as it is. AT least show some kind of google search text ad there. The first 10 times you see the message show no ad so the customer can be trained to see what it means. But after that someone like myself knows what it means and you can just show an ad there because it wouldn't be any more annoying. Just show like a logo. Like Coca Cola lolol.


----------



## ufo4sale

As a majority share holder I think these are all fantastic ideas. Keep up the good work.


----------



## JackMcC

gary.buhrmaster said:


> Please provide the name and address of that movie theatre across the street from your local megaplex showing the same films that do not show pre-roll trailers.


For me personally, that would be Chunky's but I haven't been there in the last 10 years though.

Nashua - Chunkys Cinema Pub

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## slowbiscuit

ufo4sale said:


> As a majority share holder I think these are all fantastic ideas. Keep up the good work.


Now we understand.


----------



## Bigg

CloudAtlas said:


> I'll take Ted's explanation of TiVO needing ads to make the low-volume retail channel viable over the above TCF conspiracy theory. With TiVO splitting into two companies in 2020 the hardware side needs to start making money since the patent/litigation side won't be around to subsidize it anymore.


So I'm wondering how many TiVos are actually sold truly at retail? I believe the retail number also includes CI's who install them for clients. I'm wondering if they figure that the retail market is even smaller than it appears. Otherwise, the whole EDGE and the ads kind of make no sense. The Series 1 and several series after that were truly targeted at enthusiasts who wanted a TiVo for themselves, but now that MSOs are the largest clients, I'm thinking that CIs might be the target market even for the "retail" product.

My sense is that the enthusiasts have cut the cord in large numbers, and the ones who haven't are largely on DirecTV, while many of the ones remaining on cable have gone to MSO-supplied DVRs like X1 that are definitely not as good as TiVo, but aren't nearly as bad as previous generations of non-networked 2-tuner DVRs with 80-160GB hard drives. Further, some of the techies who used to use or have TiVos and have nice HT setups today only have pay TV for the SAF/WAF, or as part of a bundle, and don't use it themselves. What's left of TiVo's market is really, really small, and OTA alone can't support them, since OTA users are too cost conscious, and they are now competing with Amazon, which doesn't need to make money off of their far less capable, but also far cheaper DVR, as well as Tablo that does need to make money, but is focused only on OTA retail and working with streaming devices.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> So I'm wondering how many TiVos are actually sold truly at retail? I believe the retail number also includes CI's who install them for clients. I'm wondering if they figure that the retail market is even smaller than it appears. Otherwise, the whole EDGE and the ads kind of make no sense. The Series 1 and several series after that were truly targeted at enthusiasts who wanted a TiVo for themselves, but now that MSOs are the largest clients, I'm thinking that CIs might be the target market even for the "retail" product.
> 
> My sense is that the enthusiasts have cut the cord in large numbers, and the ones who haven't are largely on DirecTV, while many of the ones remaining on cable have gone to MSO-supplied DVRs like X1 that are definitely not as good as TiVo, but aren't nearly as bad as previous generations of non-networked 2-tuner DVRs with 80-160GB hard drives. Further, some of the techies who used to use or have TiVos and have nice HT setups today only have pay TV for the SAF/WAF, or as part of a bundle, and don't use it themselves. What's left of TiVo's market is really, really small, and OTA alone can't support them, since OTA users are too cost conscious, and they are now competing with Amazon, which doesn't need to make money off of their far less capable, but also far cheaper DVR, as well as Tablo that does need to make money, but is focused only on OTA retail and working with streaming devices.


Yeah. I think TiVo's retail base must be pretty inconsequential _except_ as a testing grounds for technology that they deploy elsewhere. Zatz reported that they dropped below 1 million retail subscribers way back in Aug. 2013. What's the number down to now, six years later?!

Despite all the _sturm und drang_ on this thread about the pre-roll streaming ads from TiVo, I have to think that those ads aren't *really* about their retail DVR users at all. I just don't think that there are enough of them for TiVo to make any meaningful ad revenue off of -- especially when they're only serving up one single pre-roll ad, which can be skipped, and when they're even letting customers opt out of the whole thing permanently!

Don't get me wrong, I still think what TiVo is doing to their retail DVR subscribers -- at least those who already paid for lifetime service -- is slimy. I'm just saying that I think what's happening here is that TiVo is using their retail subs as they have been doing for years now -- as guinea pigs to test out new technology before it gets deployed more widely. TiVo knows that a few long-time retail subs will walk away in disgust over these ads but, in the grand scheme, they don't matter. Because TiVo's retail DVR user base doesn't matter, except with regard to their usefulness to help the company develop products and services that can be monetized on a larger scale.

In the past, that meant that retail subs were essentially beta testing new hardware and software/UI/feature designs before they got deployed to the larger, more important MSO-partner user base. But in this case, I think these streaming ads are about developing a whole new ad-based business that TiVo wants to bring to a (hopefully) much bigger retail market when they introduce the free TiVo+ service to retail users on Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV and their own TiVo-branded Android TV stick.


----------



## Troy J

Its been a couple decent decades TiVo, but... this isn't what I signed up and paid for, I'm out.


----------



## b_scott

I sold my Tivos when I moved and went streaming only two years ago. I loved Tivo for so long. But they just kept getting less and less consumer friendly. This is ridiculous. I just dropped back by to see what kind of outrage there was. Good luck friends.


----------



## Fofer

When it comes to force-fed ads though, even a cordcutter with streaming services (as a replacement for TiVo) is going to see lots of them. There’s no way to remove or skip them all. 

At least with TiVo and these new ones, we can opt out.


----------



## b_scott

Fofer said:


> When it comes to force-fed ads though, even a cordcutter with streaming services (as a replacement for TiVo) is going to see lots of them. There's no way to remove or skip them all.
> 
> At least with TiVo and these new ones, we can opt out.


No, I can skip past all ads on PS Vue recordings. And I never had a Tivo that had auto-skip.


----------



## Troy J

Fofer said:


> When it comes to force-fed ads though, even a cordcutter with streaming services (as a replacement for TiVo) is going to see lots of them. There's no way to remove or skip them all.
> 
> At least with TiVo and these new ones, we can opt out.


While somewhat correct, with ads, I'm having a really hard time figuring out the value I'm getting out of TiVo at this point. Basically, the reasons for paying what we do, are very much diminished by this. As I'm not OTA, there isn't much difference from using the cable providers box at this point.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> No, I can skip past all ads on PS Vue recordings. And I never had a Tivo that had auto-skip.


Even on shows from the CW?
If so I might need to revisit PS Vue. Since all the other services don't let you skip over commercials on CW programs.


----------



## Ruth

I'm running PE3 on a Premiere so I'm not getting these, and I've just discovered this thread and learned about this. UGH!! Like so many others, I got into the TiVo game (nearly 20 years ago, with a Series 1) largely so I could avoid watching commercials. And I've been a TiVo advocate ever since. How profoundly disappointing to see TiVo abandon all that and turn around and force-feed us with them. 

That said (and yes, I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), am I correct about these things at the present time: 
1. As long as my Lifetimed Premiere holds out, I will continue to be on TE3 and will not see the pre-roll ads. (Having typed this, I expect I've jinxed myself and the Premiere will promptly die, so I have additional questions.)
2. If I did need to replace my Premiere, TiVo would probably let me opt out of the pre-rolls. 
3. For people who do see the pre-rolls, they can be immediately skipped with FF or channel up (as opposed to, say, Hulu ads that cannot be skipped). 
4. Assuming I'm correct on #3, if you press channel up immediately after pressing play, does it effectively skip the ads or is there an annoying lag of some kind? And do we think this is only short-term and TiVo is planning eventually to make them un-skippable?


----------



## Fofer

b_scott said:


> No, I can skip past all ads on PS Vue recordings. And I never had a Tivo that had auto-skip.


Sure, "recordings." But what about time-shifted live TV? Can you trick play? Pause, instant replay, rewind in LIVE tv?

And no auto-skip? That doesn't sound very consumer friendly, at least compared to TiVo.


----------



## NorthAlabama

Troy J said:


> As I'm not OTA, there isn't much difference from using the cable providers box at this point.


for me, using the cable providers box would be less expensive, and the guide more accurate.

while i dislike the performance and user interface of the cable provider box, it wouldn't take much to push me to switch, especially when there are advantages to be gained, along with disadvantages to lose.


----------



## Mikeguy

Ruth said:


> That said (and yes, I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), am I correct about these things at the present time:
> 1. As long as my Lifetimed Premiere holds out, I will continue to be on TE3 and will not see the pre-roll ads. (Having typed this, I expect I've jinxed myself and the Premiere will promptly die, so I have additional questions.)


Yep, at least as matters currently stand.


> 2. If I did need to replace my Premiere, TiVo would probably let me opt out of the pre-rolls.


If it was tomorrow and based on what has been occurring, likely so. But who knows what will happen in the future.


----------



## NashGuy

Ruth said:


> I'm running PE3 on a Premiere so I'm not getting these, and I've just discovered this thread and learned about this. UGH!! Like so many others, I got into the TiVo game (nearly 20 years ago, with a Series 1) largely so I could avoid watching commercials. And I've been a TiVo advocate ever since. How profoundly disappointing to see TiVo abandon all that and turn around and force-feed us with them.
> 
> That said (and yes, I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), am I correct about these things at the present time:
> 1. As long as my Lifetimed Premiere holds out, I will continue to be on TE3 and will not see the pre-roll ads. (Having typed this, I expect I've jinxed myself and the Premiere will promptly die, so I have additional questions.)
> 2. If I did need to replace my Premiere, TiVo would probably let me opt out of the pre-rolls.
> 3. For people who do see the pre-rolls, they can be immediately skipped with FF or channel up (as opposed to, say, Hulu ads that cannot be skipped).
> 4. Assuming I'm correct on #3, if you press channel up immediately after pressing play, does it effectively skip the ads or is there an annoying lag of some kind? And do we think this is only short-term and TiVo is planning eventually to make them un-skippable?


Fair warning: I've not read this *entire* thread either but I've read a lot of it (as well as trusted reporting from other sources). I believe the answers to your Qs are:

1. True
2. True (although TiVo's policy on pre-roll ad opt-outs could change at any point in the future, who knows)
3. True (although see #4)
4. Yes, at least some folks have reported a frustrating lag, which makes skipping these streaming pre-rolls ads different than skipping regular broadcast ads in your recording using TiVo's SkipMode feature.


----------



## Joe3

Troy J said:


> While somewhat correct, with ads, I'm having a really hard time figuring out the value I'm getting out of TiVo at this point. Basically, the reasons for paying what we do, are very much diminished by this. As I'm not OTA, there isn't much difference from using the cable providers box at this point.


Maybe, just one big difference. If your cable provider box doesn't have theses commercials and TiVo/Rovi does. I say that's one big difference.


----------



## Troy J

NorthAlabama said:


> for me, using the cable providers box would be less expensive, and the guide more accurate.
> 
> while i dislike the performance and user interface of the cable provider box, it wouldn't take much to push me to switch, especially when there are advantages to be gained, along with disadvantages to lose.


I 100% agree, I'm not a fan of my cable providers UI, but... I can start to get over it the more these things happen.



Joe3 said:


> Maybe, just one big difference. If your cable provider box doesn't have theses commercials and TiVo/Rovi does. I say that's one big difference.


heh fair point! And yet one less reason to keep my TiVo going...


----------



## kdmorse

It's been fascinating to watch what a serious blow this has been to the WAF in many households. 

I'm not happy. My friends are not happy. But we like our Tivo's. We'll live. (Although we may be researching alternatives, and may try some as experiments before we jump to the Edge).

My friend's wives are not happy, and the subject of "Why do we even use Tivo's instead of normal DVRs?" has become a common weekend discussion.


----------



## Mikeguy

kdmorse said:


> My friend's wives are not happy, and the subject of "Why do we even use Tivo's instead of normal DVRs?" has become a common weekend discussion.


_That's _not good news for TiVo to hear.


----------



## Troy J

kdmorse said:


> My friend's wives are not happy, and the subject of "Why do we even use Tivo's instead of normal DVRs?" has become a common weekend discussion.


What's worse, you no longer have a decent response.


----------



## chrishicks

I just can't wrap my head around the "bring on the ads, we welcome our new Tivo ad generating god!!" logic that some people have. If it was Comcast who did this stupid idea everyone would be grabbing their pitchforks but because it's Tivo it's fine and dandy. It makes no sense at all unless they're just trolling for amusement.


----------



## Fofer

Troy J said:


> What's worse, you no longer have a decent response.


Having used quite a few "normal DVRs" I can easily respond, there remains significant differences when it comes to overall UX.

The TiVo platform still enjoys important differences that relate to overall usability, reliability, expandability and control.


----------



## krkaufman

chrishicks said:


> If it was Comcast who did this


... I'd use Advance or Skip to jump over the commercials.


----------



## kdmorse

chrishicks said:


> I just can't wrap my head around the "bring on the ads, we welcome our new Tivo ad generating god!!" logic that some people have. If it was Comcast who did this stupid idea everyone would be grabbing their pitchforks but because it's Tivo it's fine and dandy. It makes no sense at all unless they're just trolling for amusement.


This thread is now 1287 posts long. Everyone who is going to rant, has ranted. Everyone who is going to grab pitchfork has grabbed a pitchfork, waved it around, and their arms are tired. Everyone who is going to consider alternatives, are now in other threads considering alternatives.

I mean, we could keep ranting in a circle. Every time someone says they don't dislike pre-roll ads - we could try to stab them with a pichfork through the internet, but at some point, why?


----------



## krkaufman

kdmorse said:


> This thread is now 1287 posts long. Everyone who is going to rant, has ranted. Everyone who is going to grab pitchfork has grabbed a pitchfork, waved it around, and their arms are tired. Everyone who is going to consider alternatives, are now in other threads considering alternatives.
> 
> I mean, we could keep ranting in a circle. Every time someone says they don't dislike pre-roll ads - we could try to stab them with a pichfork through the internet, but at some point, why?


Because better here than in some other thread?


----------



## kdmorse

Fofer said:


> Having used quite a few "normal DVRs" I can easily respond, there remains significant differences when it comes to overall UX. The TiVo still enjoys important differences that relate to overall usability, reliability, and control.


Yah, it was fun watching that exact argument go south on them.

Since TE4 (and they've all switched to TE4 for various reasons) - the UX difference between the current X1 and the Tivo has shrunk more than a bit. Those who appreciated the UX of TE3, especially over a regular DVR - now kinda isn't thrilled with TE4, and figures screw it, they're all the same.

Reliability, well, they've all suffered a rash of Bolt hard disk failures. Now, they've never experienced a rash of Comcast DVR hard disk failures so they don't actually know that Comcast DVR's are usually worse, but they all have Bolt HD failures (which are no different than Unit Failures) fresh in their minds.

And further, the mention of reliability also unleashed a string of complaints of missed recordings (All guide data related), which spiked dramatically post Rovi conversion - complete with recent (and valid) complaints. All cases where their friends "Regular DVR"s had no problems recording their shows, but the fancy expensive Tivo blew it.

It's really, really has become a harder argument than it used to be.


----------



## omelet1978

Honestly, the combination of no Live Guide and now these pre-ads is a bitter pill to swallow for me and TE4. 

I’m sticking with TE3 and honestly it’s still a clean and simple interface that I don’t mind using for a few more years. Also rumor has it the pre-ads aren’t going to be on this software version.


----------



## krkaufman

omelet1978 said:


> Also rumor has it the pre-ads aren't going to be on this software version.


More an official statement, if qualified, by a TiVo representative than rumor.


----------



## Bigg

I'm glad I kept TE3. It works fine, and I see no reason to give up the same basic interface I've used since I've had an S2.


----------



## ufo4sale

If this doesn't kill TiVo then NOTHING will!!!


----------



## pldoolittle

NorthAlabama said:


> for me, using the cable providers box would be less expensive, and the guide more accurate.
> 
> while i dislike the performance and user interface of the cable provider box, it wouldn't take much to push me to switch, especially when there are advantages to be gained, along with disadvantages to lose.


This. The balance is tipping away from TiVo feature by feature.

Video apps like Netflix and hulu? Roku, firestick, et.al. have them.

Video on demand? Roku, et.al.

Capital expense? Other devices are cheaper, even when added together.

Recurring expense? A wash.

UI? TE 3 is superior, TE4 is a wash.

Global search? Tivo, by a hair. Very buggy.

At this point our only stickies are 1) we own it already and 2) familiarity.


----------



## Lurker1

pldoolittle said:


> At this point our only stickies are 1) we own it already and 2) familiarity.


This. All TiVo had to do was not motivate me to switch. And yet here we are.


----------



## Fofer

omelet1978 said:


> Honestly, the combination of no Live Guide and now these pre-ads is a bitter pill to swallow for me and TE4.


But TE4 users can opt out of these pre-ads, so really, it's just about no Live Guide.
Which is a fine reason if that's a priority to you. But it seems weird to list pre-ads as a deal-breaker when those pre-ads can be disabled.

The loss of integrated auto comskip along with CEC remote control would be too bitter of a pill to swallow, for me to downgrade back to TE3. I *vastly* prefer the TE4 interface. TE3 feels antiquated and embarrassing by comparison. And so it goes...


----------



## aristoBrat

kdmorse said:


> It's been fascinating to watch what a serious blow this has been to the WAF in many households.


I think it would be far more fascinating to actually switch those households to another brand DVR for at least a month and then have them report back about "acceptability factor" impacts.


----------



## HerronScott

kdmorse said:


> It's been fascinating to watch what a serious blow this has been to the WAF in many households.
> 
> I'm not happy. My friends are not happy. But we like our Tivo's. We'll live. (Although we may be researching alternatives, and may try some as experiments before we jump to the Edge).
> 
> My friend's wives are not happy, and the subject of "Why do we even use Tivo's instead of normal DVRs?" has become a common weekend discussion.


Have you called to opt out yet (same for your friend's)?

Scott


----------



## Joe3

Fofer said:


> But TE4 users can opt out of these pre-ads, so really, it's just about no Live Guide.
> Which is a fine reason if that's a priority to you. But it seems weird to list pre-ads as a deal-breaker when those pre-ads can be disabled.
> 
> The loss of integrated auto comskip along with CEC remote control would be too bitter of a pill to swallow, for me to downgrade back to TE3. I *vastly* prefer the TE4 interface. TE3 feels antiquated and embarrassing by comparison. And so it goes...


Embarrassing?
Com'on~

And your forgetting transfers enabled TE3. Not so embarrassing when it allows you to off load to create more space on a perfectly good TiVo drive for the fall's new shows. It's also not embarrassing not to lose your recording when you have the freedom to off load all of your recordings to transfer them back when you upgrade to TE3 from TE4.

As it is often said, different strokes for different folks.


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> It's also not embarrassing not to lose your recording when you have the freedom to off load all of your recordings to transfer them back when you upgrade to TE3 from TE4.


TE4 is vastly superior in that respect, since it doesn't require offloading the shows when upgrading from TE3 to TE4; all settings and shows are retained.


----------



## Fofer

Joe3 said:


> Embarrassing?
> Com'on~
> 
> And your forgetting transfers enabled TE3. Not so embarrassing when it allows you to off load to create more space on a perfectly good TiVo drive for the fall's new shows. It's also not embarrassing not to lose your recording when you have the freedom to off load all of your recordings to transfer them back when you upgrade to TE3 from TE4.
> 
> As it is often said, different strokes for different folks.


Yes, embarrassing. Some elements of TE3 are still in SD! The whole interface looks like it's from the late 1990's. On a 75" 4K TV? Yes, it's a bit cringe-worthy.

I didn't forget about transfers because I don't care about them and never used them. Not only do they take too long, I can't transfer everything (Spectrum sets the CC flag on everything but locals.) I've never needed to "create more space" because I upgraded my internal drive to 3TB which has always been more than enough. So the notion of transfers is a complete non-issue to me.


----------



## Mikeguy

The fact that a feature is not used by a particular consumer doesn't make the TE3 UI antiquated and embarrassing, or somehow negate its utility for others. (But, yes, TiVo should have completed converting the few remaining TE3 SD screens into HD--having said that, I can't recall the last time I hit such a screen.)

Want to talk about embarrassing? How about a TE4 Suggestions "feature" that is anything but and instead simply runs amuck--really? Or a show inter-box transfer feature that can't actually be performed on the boxes themselves, but instead must be done separately at the TiVo Online website.


----------



## Fofer

"Antiquated and embrassing" referred to how it looks and feels. The overall interface, the design of the screens and the layout.

It has nothing to do with functionalities I personally find useless. I *also* never used Suggestions.


----------



## Mikeguy

I agree that the TE4 UI looks nice and sleek (and especially since TiVo dialed back on the wasteful overuse of show images). Unfortunately, in getting there, TiVo eliminated/failed to bring with it features that many people find helpful and beneficial. For me, the sleekness of TE4 just doesn't compensate for the loss of those features.


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> (But, yes, TiVo should have completed converting the few remaining TE3 SD screens into HD--having said that, I can't recall the last time I hit such a screen.)


I believe only the cable card stuff and system logs are still SD.

Sometimes if you access (via network) a TE3 Roamio in Standby the display is the old SD NPL and not My Shows.


----------



## Fofer

Mikeguy said:


> I agree that the TE4 UI looks nice and sleek (and especially since TiVo dialed back on the wasteful overuse of show images). Unfortunately, in getting there, TiVo eliminated/failed to bring with it features that many people find helpful and beneficial. For me, the sleekness of TE4 just doesn't compensate for the loss of those features.


I'm sure Tivo knows which features the majority of their user base actually uses, and which get a disproportionate amount of complaints when they're removed. TE4 also adds features, notably auto comskip, and CEC, that I use every day and love and wouldn't want to live without.



JoeKustra said:


> Sometimes if you access (via network) a TE3 Roamio in Standby the display is the old SD NPL and not My Shows.


Which is, on a big screen 4K TV in 2019, absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> I believe only the cable card stuff and system logs are still SD.
> 
> Sometimes if you access (via network) a TE3 Roamio in Standby the display is the old SD NPL and not My Shows.


I sometimes also will get an SD screen if I'm accessing a target TiVo box from a local box and there seems to be a lesser WiFi network robustness--but a second later and I can be back to an HD screen.

I apologize for suggesting that the earlier comment as to TE3 seeming antiquated and embarrassing was referring to other than the look of the UI, which I can understand (although I don't fully agree with--we're not talking about the look and feel of DOS here, lol). But, as I said, for me, I'd prefer to have the features that TiVo dropped in TE4 than TE4's sleeker appearance or even TE4's AutoSkip (which I can get close enough to, albeit not all the way there, with SkipMode). I wish that some TiVo engineers had managed to fit those earlier TiVo benefits into TE4 and that management had agreed (or still would, lol).


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> I sometimes also will get an SD screen if I'm accessing a target TiVo box from a local box and there seems to be a lesser WiFi network robustness--but a second later and I can be back to an HD screen.


I have both. Some funny observations. If I power off my TE4 Mini VOX, after a minute it will display on my TE3 Roamio. When I do access My Shows from a TE3 to a TE4 box, there are two Deleted Recordings folders. Only one just has dates. I was moving programs from TE3 to TE4 to get auto-skip. But I find it quicker to use manual SM since I tend to watch stuff where I know when I'm approaching a break.

My feeling about TE4: it makes maximum use of the display.


----------



## JoeKustra

Fofer said:


> Which is, on a big screen 4K TV in 2019, absolutely ridiculous.


It's a bug that will probably never be fixed. So don't use Standby.


----------



## shwru980r

Do you have to opt out of ads on a per Tivo or per account basis? If the Tivo is still running TE3 can you still opt out of ads and have it take effect if and when the Tivo is upgraded to TE4?


----------



## Fofer

shwru980r said:


> Do you have to opt out of ads on a per Tivo or per account basis? If the Tivo is still running TE3 can you still opt out of ads and have it take effect if and when the Tivo is upgraded to TE4?


Since you can only opt out once you get them and you will only get them when you're on TE4, your question doesn't apply.


----------



## schatham

shwru980r said:


> Do you have to opt out of ads on a per Tivo or per account basis? If the Tivo is still running TE3 can you still opt out of ads and have it take effect if and when the Tivo is upgraded to TE4?


You need to wait until the ads appear to cancel them.


----------



## krkaufman

JoeKustra said:


> Sometimes if you access (via network) a TE3 Roamio in Standby the display is the old SD NPL and not My Shows.


A thread within the last couple days also indicates this SD fallback can occur due to network issues.


----------



## mntvjunkie

kdmorse said:


> Reliability, well, they've all suffered a rash of Bolt hard disk failures. Now, they've never experienced a rash of Comcast DVR hard disk failures so they don't actually know that Comcast DVR's are usually worse, but they all have Bolt HD failures (which are no different than Unit Failures) fresh in their minds.
> 
> And further, the mention of reliability also unleashed a string of complaints of missed recordings (All guide data related), which spiked dramatically post Rovi conversion - complete with recent (and valid) complaints. All cases where their friends "Regular DVR"s had no problems recording their shows, but the fancy expensive Tivo blew it.
> 
> It's really, really has become a harder argument than it used to be.


And the hard drive failure issue really isn't a problem on X1 anymore, because they already "back up" the most recent 20 hours of programming to their managed cloud (of which you would have a really hard time differentiating from a local recording, as it is on their managed network). So now, if the hard drive fails, for most people, they won't lose anything. For people that would lose older recordings, on demand is usually "good enough" in a failure like this (and the bonus is that you get the new box at no additional cost, since you are leasing everything vs owning it).

The reliable guide thing really is an issue. It hasn't affected me much, but when it has, it stings (happened with South Park last week, and the worst part was, I checked in the morning and it was set to record, it only updated to bad data at the last minute!).

Only thing keeping me on my 6 year old Roamio at this point, post-ad era, is the fact that I can opt out, and the fact that it's "free" now so I might as well just ride it out. Once it dies, I'm gone (because I have no guarantee that a $1000 Edge will be able to opt out, and X1 now gives me a slightly superior experience with a few exceptions).


----------



## JoeKustra

krkaufman said:


> A thread within the last couple days also indicates this SD fallback can occur due to network issues.


That's logical. The NPL is preceded by a BSC. I also find it funny that with Online my Mini VOX is always on my device list but grayed out. My A93 Mini never displays since the last update. But it shows my Premiere when it's powered off. Wonderful networking.


----------



## NashGuy

mntvjunkie said:


> And the hard drive failure issue really isn't a problem on X1 anymore, because they already "back up" the most recent 20 hours of programming to their managed cloud (of which you would have a really hard time differentiating from a local recording, as it is on their managed network). So now, if the hard drive fails, for most people, they won't lose anything.


Yes, although small correction: Comcast's cloud DVR backs up/mirrors the most recent *60* hours of recordings from your local X1 DVR(s).


----------



## shwru980r

schatham said:


> You need to wait until the adds appear to cancel them.


If I set up a Tivo with TE4, can I call to request ads and then cancel the ads?


----------



## Fofer

No, you have to wait for them to first appear. The rollout is happening over the course of three months.


----------



## mntvjunkie

NashGuy said:


> Yes, although small correction: Comcast's cloud DVR backs up/mirrors the most recent *60* hours of recordings from your local X1 DVR(s).


Oh, nice! They have upgraded it since the last time I looked! So they can provide the hardware, 60 hours of cloud storage, accurate guide data, AND on-demand access for $5 less per month than Tivo AND have no pre-roll ads. I realize that Comcast doesn't need to make as much money on their DVR service, but still, tell me again how Tivo provides me less for more and still needs to get a few dollars more per year out of ads that make the Tivo experience worse?


----------



## Fofer

Have you used one of them recently? The UI and overall UX is terrible. I wouldn’t use one of those for my living room TV setup if you paid me a monthly fee to do so. 

I do like the cloud backup feature, though. I’ll give them props for that.


----------



## ufo4sale

shwru980r said:


> If I set up a Tivo with TE4, can I call to request ads and then cancel the ads?


So let me get this straight you want the ads just so you can call and complain to have them removed. No offense but that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.


----------



## Amnesia

Perhaps he wants to get in on the opt-out train in case they stop allowing opt-outs in the future...


----------



## KevTech

ufo4sale said:


> So let me get this straight you want the ads just so you can call and complain to have them removed. No offense but that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.





Amnesia said:


> Perhaps he wants to get in on the opt-out train in case they stop allowing opt-outs in the future...


Yes if you call in before seeing ads the rep will just tell you call back when you are receiving the ads as they can not put in an opt out request until you are seeing the ads.


----------



## ej42137

ufo4sale said:


> So let me get this straight you want the ads just so you can call and complain to have them removed. No offense but that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.





Amnesia said:


> Perhaps he wants to get in on the opt-out train in case they stop allowing opt-outs in the future...


I imagine he wants to express his displeasure with the idea of pre-roll advertisements. I'm going to vote with my wallet and just not buy any more TiVos.


----------



## NashGuy

mntvjunkie said:


> Oh, nice! They have upgraded it since the last time I looked! So they can provide the hardware, 60 hours of cloud storage, accurate guide data, AND on-demand access for $5 less per month than Tivo AND have no pre-roll ads. I realize that Comcast doesn't need to make as much money on their DVR service, but still, tell me again how Tivo provides me less for more and still needs to get a few dollars more per year out of ads that make the Tivo experience worse?


Just FYI, the new pricing scheme that Comcast has rolled out in parts of their footprint (and will almost certainly spread everywhere) is this: DVR service (whether 60 hrs cloud-only or local+cloud) costs $10/mo for the account. And then whatever model X1 boxes you rent are $5/mo each. You can go 100% IPTV and just get simple wireless X1 boxes with no tuners or hard drive and exclusively rely on cloud DVR. (Or, if you go 100% IPTV, you're not forced to rent any boxes at all; you can just use the Stream app on your Roku or smart TV at no additional charge, at least for now while it's still officially in beta.) Or you can (for now, at least) still get physical X1 DVRs, which use a hybrid QAM/IPTV system. Either way, you pay $5 for the box and $10 for the DVR service itself.

Also, they now have three core channel packages: Basic, Extra and Preferred. Extra and Preferred come with 20 hours of free cloud DVR at no extra cost. You only pay the $10 DVR service fee if you upgrade to 60 hours of cloud DVR (or take a physical DVR box, which necessarily also includes 60 hours of cloud storage).

TiVo lovers like to hate on X1 and I'm sure they have valid points in terms of its day-to-day use. But in the bit of time that I played around with it, after setting up a friend's box, I thought that the UI looked really slick and integrated on-demand very nicely. And the voice input worked really fast and accurately. Still though, you're not going to be able to store nearly as much as with a TiVo, or have the kind of power-user features that many TiVo users enjoy. Trade-offs...


----------



## HerronScott

Fofer said:


> Yes, embarrassing. Some elements of TE3 are still in SD! The whole interface looks like it's from the late 1990's. On a 75" 4K TV? Yes, it's a bit cringe-worthy.





JoeKustra said:


> I believe only the cable card stuff and system logs are still SD.


Right and the CableCARD menu's are passthrough from the CableCARD. The rest of the SD menu's were upgraded 2 years ago and UI/menu's brought up to the Bolt TE3 standard (which everyone complained about with color changes, etc)

I don't see any issues with the TE3 interface myself but I tend to like simple (sorry only a 65" plasma here without 4K). 

Scott


----------



## mntvjunkie

Fofer said:


> Have you used one of them recently? The UI and overall UX is terrible. I wouldn't use one of those for my living room TV setup if you paid me a monthly fee to do so.
> 
> I do like the cloud backup feature, though. I'll give them props for that.


I have. It's different, to be sure, but in many ways I actually like it better than TE 4. Tradeoffs to be sure, but the way it integrates On-Demand is good, the online experience is better, and remote play just "works". Lately, I can't say the same of Tivo. My Mini works for a few days, then the box needs to be rebooted. Then streaming works for a few weeks, then the box needs to be rebooted. Much may have been solved here with Edge, but with pre-roll ads, it's just not a gamble I want to take, especially with Comcast moving to IPTV.


----------



## mntvjunkie

NashGuy said:


> Just FYI, the new pricing scheme that Comcast has rolled out in parts of their footprint (and will almost certainly spread everywhere) is this: DVR service (whether 60 hrs cloud-only or local+cloud) costs $10/mo for the account. And then whatever model X1 boxes you rent are $5/mo each. You can go 100% IPTV and just get simple wireless X1 boxes with no tuners or hard drive and exclusively rely on cloud DVR. (Or, if you go 100% IPTV, you're not forced to rent any boxes at all; you can just use the Stream app on your Roku or smart TV at no additional charge, at least for now while it's still officially in beta.) Or you can (for now, at least) still get physical X1 DVRs, which use a hybrid QAM/IPTV system. Either way, you pay $5 for the box and $10 for the DVR service itself.
> 
> Also, they now have three core channel packages: Basic, Extra and Preferred. Extra and Preferred come with 20 hours of free cloud DVR at no extra cost. You only pay the $10 DVR service fee if you upgrade to 60 hours of cloud DVR (or take a physical DVR box, which necessarily also includes 60 hours of cloud storage).
> 
> TiVo lovers like to hate on X1 and I'm sure they have valid points in terms of its day-to-day use. But in the bit of time that I played around with it, after setting up a friend's box, I thought that the UI looked really slick and integrated on-demand very nicely. And the voice input worked really fast and accurately. Still though, you're not going to be able to store nearly as much as with a TiVo, or have the kind of power-user features that many TiVo users enjoy. Trade-offs...


I live in an association that provides cable + internet for a bulk rate (it's super cheap). With that, I get 3 free boxes, and a free cable modem. So at least for me, the DVR service won't change. That said, even if the DVR service is identical in price to Tivo, I don't have the up-front cost of buying the box, and when the equipment gets older, I can just swap it out (since it's a lease).

I have had both the "old" motorola boxes in the past, as well as the X1 box (no DVR). IMO, each solution has trade-offs. The power user features are really nice with Tivo, the ability to move shows to PC is really awesome, and the ability to upgrade Hard Drives is great too (have done this twice, even when it was harder). Overall, I did PREFER the Tivo, but it was only slightly, over the X1 boxes. For me, ads tip the scales just enough. I will keep my Tivo, I will opt out of ads, but I will NOT give Tivo another dime until the practice stops. If they reverse course, great. If not, when this Tivo dies, I'll get an X1 box and see if I can tolerate it. If not, I may try Channels. At this point, both are slightly cheaper overall (and Channels would give me an excuse to get a NAS, just have to see if TV Everywhere works enough for me during the trial first).

To me personally, TE4 and X1 are pretty similar UI's. I have a harder time seeing, so the X1 wins out slightly (although I get around this by using the app when I need to see the guide) in that regard. As I stated above, remote play, watching on PC's, tablets, etc. and playing on secondary boxes is more stable on X1, but the Tivo UI is slightly faster (until the ads start, I don't need yet another chance to see a BSC). Voice on X1 is a killer feature (but I am sure it's great with VOX too).


----------



## Bigg

mntvjunkie said:


> Oh, nice! They have upgraded it since the last time I looked! So they can provide the hardware, 60 hours of cloud storage, accurate guide data, AND on-demand access for $5 less per month than Tivo AND have no pre-roll ads. I realize that Comcast doesn't need to make as much money on their DVR service, but still, tell me again how Tivo provides me less for more and still needs to get a few dollars more per year out of ads that make the Tivo experience worse?


Different company, different business model. Comcast has scale, and their primary profit driver is broadband, not the TV portion of things. They probably make some money on the VOD, premiums, box rentals, etc, but they are at best scraping out a thin margin on their TV packages.



NashGuy said:


> TiVo lovers like to hate on X1 and I'm sure they have valid points in terms of its day-to-day use. But in the bit of time that I played around with it, after setting up a friend's box, I thought that the UI looked really slick and integrated on-demand very nicely. And the voice input worked really fast and accurately. Still though, you're not going to be able to store nearly as much as with a TiVo, or have the kind of power-user features that many TiVo users enjoy. Trade-offs...


X1 is "good enough" for the masses, but it's certainly no TiVo. Most of the X1 boxes (excluding the XG1v4 on Comcast, Cox does't have it yet AFAIK) are slow and clunky in comparison to TiVo, and all X1 boxes have a clunkier UI than TiVo, with more menus to click through, and fewer features. They also don't have 2-3TB hard drives like TiVos. The X1 boxes also throw a fit when the network goes down, and they either can't play anything back or are very limited on functionality. Also, with a TiVo you can switch QAM-based providers and keep your recordings if you're lucky enough to have multiple QAM providers, or if you have certain TiVo models, switch from cable to OTA.

The two advantages X1 has are the T9-esque remote, which is pretty cool for typing without needing an app or a flip-out keyboard like TiVo, and VOD, which I believe is completely gone from TiVo on Comcast.


----------



## shwru980r

ufo4sale said:


> So let me get this straight you want the ads just so you can call and complain to have them removed. No offense but that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.


I'm on TE3 now on all my Tivos. I have an unsubscribed Roamio OTA. I want to activate it month to month with TE4, but not use it. Then contact Tivo to acquire the ads so I can then cancel the ads. Then cancel the subscription. Then if I ever move to TE4 in the future, I won't be interrupted with the ads.


----------



## Fofer

Lol. Sounds legit. Thanks for this nonsense, TiVo. What a sad joke.


----------



## snerd

shwru980r said:


> I'm on TE3 now on all my Tivos. I have an unsubscribed Roamio OTA. I want to activate it month to month with TE4, but not use it. Then contact Tivo to acquire the ads so I can then cancel the ads. Then cancel the subscription. Then if I ever move to TE4 in the future, I won't be interrupted with the ads.


That will only work if "cancel pre-roll ads" is applied to the account rather than each individual TiVo. I don't think we've been given enough information to know just how that works.


----------



## mschnebly

mntvjunkie said:


> I live in an association that provides cable + internet for a bulk rate (it's super cheap). With that, I get 3 free boxes, and a free cable modem. So at least for me, the DVR service won't change. That said, even if the DVR service is identical in price to Tivo, I don't have the up-front cost of buying the box, and when the equipment gets older, I can just swap it out (since it's a lease).
> 
> I have had both the "old" motorola boxes in the past, as well as the X1 box (no DVR). IMO, each solution has trade-offs. The power user features are really nice with Tivo, the ability to move shows to PC is really awesome, and the ability to upgrade Hard Drives is great too (have done this twice, even when it was harder). Overall, I did PREFER the Tivo, but it was only slightly, over the X1 boxes. For me, ads tip the scales just enough. I will keep my Tivo, I will opt out of ads, but I will NOT give Tivo another dime until the practice stops. If they reverse course, great. If not, when this Tivo dies, I'll get an X1 box and see if I can tolerate it. If not, I may try Channels. At this point, both are slightly cheaper overall (and Channels would give me an excuse to get a NAS, just have to see if TV Everywhere works enough for me during the trial first).
> 
> To me personally, TE4 and X1 are pretty similar UI's. I have a harder time seeing, so the X1 wins out slightly (although I get around this by using the app when I need to see the guide) in that regard. As I stated above, remote play, watching on PC's, tablets, etc. and playing on secondary boxes is more stable on X1, but the Tivo UI is slightly faster (until the ads start, I don't need yet another chance to see a BSC). Voice on X1 is a killer feature (but I am sure it's great with VOX too).


Speaking of a NAS with Channels... I have a Synology that I use but I've also used one of those little WD My Cloud Home drives and it works perfectly with Channels. A cheap solution.


----------



## mschnebly

Bigg said:


> Different company, different business model. Comcast has scale, and their primary profit driver is broadband, not the TV portion of things. They probably make some money on the VOD, premiums, box rentals, etc, but they are at best scraping out a thin margin on their TV packages.
> 
> X1 is "good enough" for the masses, but it's certainly no TiVo. Most of the X1 boxes (excluding the XG1v4 on Comcast, Cox does't have it yet AFAIK) are slow and clunky in comparison to TiVo, and all X1 boxes have a clunkier UI than TiVo, with more menus to click through, and fewer features. They also don't have 2-3TB hard drives like TiVos. The X1 boxes also throw a fit when the network goes down, and they either can't play anything back or are very limited on functionality. Also, with a TiVo you can switch QAM-based providers and keep your recordings if you're lucky enough to have multiple QAM providers, or if you have certain TiVo models, switch from cable to OTA.
> 
> The two advantages X1 has are the T9-esque remote, which is pretty cool for typing without needing an app or a flip-out keyboard like TiVo, and VOD, which I believe is completely gone from TiVo on Comcast.


You don't really have to flip through the menus, just use the voice feature. It's almost flawless taking you to settings and features.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> Even on shows from the CW?
> If so I might need to revisit PS Vue. Since all the other services don't let you skip over commercials on CW programs.


CW doesn't allow PS or other streaming package services access, I think. At least PS Vue doesn't carry it. But CW does have the free app (with commercials sadly).


----------



## b_scott

Fofer said:


> Sure, "recordings." But what about time-shifted live TV? Can you trick play? Pause, instant replay, rewind in LIVE tv?
> 
> And no auto-skip? That doesn't sound very consumer friendly, at least compared to TiVo.


time shifted live tv is recording....... ?? For Vue you can skip back and pause, I believe it only buffers for 5 minutes if you haven't set up the show as a recording. If you have it's the same as Tivo. The skip back is 10 second increments for every press. Auto skip is when Tivo manually goes through and puts markers, with its own staff - that's a Tivo thing, which you pay them for indirectly through your purchase.

The negative for those that care, is you can only keep DVR recordings for 28 days. I don't care since I don't stockpile recordings, I just watch them and move on.


----------



## b_scott

Fofer said:


> "Antiquated and embrassing" referred to how it looks and feels. The overall interface, the design of the screens and the layout.
> 
> It has nothing to do with functionalities I personally find useless. I *also* never used Suggestions.


I also never used suggestions. But you might benefit from taking a look at yourself from the outside view and realize you're very fanboy about defensive about old Tivo stuff due to the fact that you've been around since 2000. New isn't always bad, and nostalgia isn't always good.


----------



## Fofer

b_scott said:


> I also never used suggestions. But you might benefit from taking a look at yourself from the outside view and realize you're very fanboy about defensive about old Tivo stuff due to the fact that you've been around since 2000.


Hahahaaaaaa, you couldn't be further from the truth, I have harshly criticized TiVo for this, and very many other things over the years.



b_scott said:


> New isn't always bad, and nostalgia isn't always good.


Um... yeah, and I've been saying I vastly appreciate TE4 over TE3 and regret waiting as long as I did to upgrade. What are you going on about?


----------



## b_scott

Fofer said:


> Hahahaaaaaa, you couldn't be further from the truth, I have harshly criticized TiVo for this, and very many other things over the years.
> 
> Um... yeah, and I've been saying I vastly appreciate TE4 over TE3 and regret waiting as long as I did to upgrade. What are you going on about?


maybe I misunderstood. You were saying that you like the simplicity of the older interface, no?


----------



## Fofer

b_scott said:


> maybe I misunderstood. You were saying that you like the simplicity of the older interface, no?


No, you're confusing me with someone else.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> CW doesn't allow PS or other streaming package services access, I think. At least PS Vue doesn't carry it. But CW does have the free app (with commercials sadly).


OK. So it's the same. The CW shows I watch I purchase from Amazon, Vudu, or Fandango Now. Since that is the only way for me to avoid any commercials with them. And also get decent video quality. Since DC OTA, Comcast, and FiOS video quality is so bad.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> OK. So it's the same. The CW shows I watch I purchase from Amazon, Vudu, or Fandango Now. Since that is the only way for me to avoid any commercials with them. And also get decent video quality. Since DC OTA, Comcast, and FiOS video quality is so bad.


I guess that's up to you, but I rather ignore commercials on the one show i watch on CW and get it for entirely free (Supernatural)


----------



## slice1900

snerd said:


> That will only work if "cancel pre-roll ads" is applied to the account rather than each individual TiVo. I don't think we've been given enough information to know just how that works.


Given that doing the cancel causes a software update to be pushed to your Tivo, it seems unlikely the simple swap shwru980r proposed would work. Definitely not something you can count on, especially if they remove the "opt out" option down the road.


----------



## Adam C.

aaronwt said:


> OK. So it's the same. The CW shows I watch I purchase from Amazon, Vudu, or Fandango Now. Since that is the only way for me to avoid any commercials with them. And also get decent video quality. Since DC OTA, Comcast, and FiOS video quality is so bad.


What kind of picture quality are you looking for that you would rather pay for it than receive it for free OTA? In my area the NYC OTA channels look awesome and in most cases are better than the cable companies.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> I guess that's up to you, but I rather ignore commercials on the one show i watch on CW and get it for entirely free (Supernatural)


I can't do that. The last time I tried, I got to the second commercial break and couldn't stand it. And ended up purchasing the rest of the season. So now I do it with all the shows on the CW. Since I really hate commercials.

And it still isn't very expensive. I end up paying between 75 cents and $2 per HD episode when I buy the entire season. The most I've paid was $2 an episode. And that was for the Magicians, which is on SyFy. All the CW shows have cost me $1.50 or less per HD episode.


----------



## aaronwt

Adam C. said:


> What kind of picture quality are you looking for that you would rather pay for it than receive it for free OTA? In my area the NYC OTA channels look awesome and in most cases are better than the cable companies.


In my area they are frequency sharing in preparation for ATSC 3.0. But even before that the quality was poor with all the sub-channels that have been added. Watching the shows on Amazon, Vudu, or Fandango Now is a night and day difference from the quality of OTA, FiOS, or Comcast here. Most of the detail is missing since everything is bitstarved now.


----------



## chiguy50

NashGuy said:


> Just FYI, the new pricing scheme that Comcast has rolled out in parts of their footprint (and will almost certainly spread everywhere) is this: DVR service (whether 60 hrs cloud-only or local+cloud) costs $10/mo for the account. And then whatever model X1 boxes you rent are $5/mo each. *You can go 100% IPTV and just get simple wireless X1 boxes with no tuners or hard drive and exclusively rely on cloud DVR.*


One small caveat regarding the "wireless" Xi5/6 client boxes is that they can only operate wirelessly in conjunction with the Comcast rental (XB3/6) gateway. If you are using a third-party modem or set the Comcast modem to bridge mode you must use the Xi5/6's ethernet port.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> X1 is "good enough" for the masses, but it's certainly no TiVo. Most of the X1 boxes (excluding the XG1v4 on Comcast, Cox does't have it yet AFAIK) are slow and clunky in comparison to TiVo, and all X1 boxes have a clunkier UI than TiVo, with more menus to click through, and fewer features. They also don't have 2-3TB hard drives like TiVos. The X1 boxes also throw a fit when the network goes down, and they either can't play anything back or are very limited on functionality. Also, with a TiVo you can switch QAM-based providers and keep your recordings if you're lucky enough to have multiple QAM providers, or if you have certain TiVo models, switch from cable to OTA.
> 
> The two advantages X1 has are the T9-esque remote, which is pretty cool for typing without needing an app or a flip-out keyboard like TiVo, and VOD, which I believe is completely gone from TiVo on Comcast.


Don't recall which model X1 my friend has (it has a hard drive but I kinda doubt it's the top-end XG1v4). At any rate, the UI felt faster and more fluid than the Roamio OTA I had at the time. And the X1 UI design looked, well, like something that was designed in the past few years while the old TE3 UI looked like something from a decade ago.

Of the advantages you cite for TiVo over X1, about the only thing that would have much appeal or make any difference to the vast majority of cable TV subscribers is the larger hard drive. Everyone likes having the option of recording tons of stuff and not worrying about space, if even they don't really need the space.

And while there are TiVo-lovers who would see the X1 as just "good enough," my guess is that if you let all X1 users spend a few days using a TiVo with the Hydra UI, a whole lot of them, maybe even the majority, would choose to stick with X1 even if it didn't cost them any more to use the TiVo. While TiVo definitely has more options for power users, I always found its UI back on TE3 to have off-putting oddities relative to every other DVR I'd ever used. (The worst was pressing the Zoom button on the remote to exit from TiVo Central back to live TV. Completely unintuitive.)


----------



## NashGuy

chiguy50 said:


> One small caveat regarding the "wireless" Xi5/6 client boxes is that they can only operate wirelessly in conjunction with the Comcast rental (XB3/6) gateway. If you are using a third-party modem or set the Comcast modem to bridge mode you must use the Xi5/6's ethernet port.


I wondered about that. It makes sense that a standalone Xi5/6 would require also using the multicast-capable XB3/6 gateway.

That said, when I tried a few months back, Comcast's online ordering system would let me get all the way to the final step with an order that included IPTV with no Comcast boxes (i.e. relying on the Xfinity Stream app for Roku, etc.) plus broadband service, but using my own retail modem and router.


----------



## humbb

slice1900 said:


> Given that doing the cancel causes a software update to be pushed to your Tivo ...


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of this. Where did you see that?


----------



## Fofer

NashGuy said:


> (The worst was pressing the Zoom button on the remote to exit from TiVo Central back to live TV. Completely unintuitive.)


At least the way I used it, since the live TV video was in the small PIP window in the upper right while I was in TiVo Central, pressing Zoom to make it go full screen seemed completely intuitive to me


----------



## humbb

Fofer said:


> At least the way I used it, since the live TV video was in the small PIP window in the upper right while I was in TiVo Central, pressing Zoom to make it go full screen seemed completely intuitive to me


It was intuitive to me too!


----------



## KevTech

NashGuy said:


> Don't recall which model X1 my friend has (it has a hard drive but I kinda doubt it's the top-end XG1v4).


Maybe a picture will help identify which one it was.

X1 TV Box Comparison - DVR vs. Non-DVR - Xfinity


----------



## bradleys

Is it possible to setup an IFTTT rule to effector auto skip the advert?


----------



## Fofer

bradleys said:


> Is it possible to setup an IFTTT rule to effector auto skip the advert?


No, these ads are exempt from that. Which is why it's sleazy


----------



## Bigg

mschnebly said:


> You don't really have to flip through the menus, just use the voice feature. It's almost flawless taking you to settings and features.


A lot of people don't want to be talking to their remote, they want to use it like a normal remote.



NashGuy said:


> Don't recall which model X1 my friend has (it has a hard drive but I kinda doubt it's the top-end XG1v4). At any rate, the UI felt faster and more fluid than the Roamio OTA I had at the time. And the X1 UI design looked, well, like something that was designed in the past few years while the old TE3 UI looked like something from a decade ago.


The v4 is pretty obvious since it's got the angular design versus the more "traditional" XG1 design with the curves. I've used an XG1v1 alongside a Roamio OTA and the Roamio OTA (on TE3) is a far better device.



> Of the advantages you cite for TiVo over X1, about the only thing that would have much appeal or make any difference to the vast majority of cable TV subscribers is the larger hard drive. Everyone likes having the option of recording tons of stuff and not worrying about space, if even they don't really need the space.


Yeah, X1 is "good enough" for the majority of people, even though they would clearly see the difference if they had a TiVo for a while. It's unfortunate that the large MSOs are too pig-headed and stubborn to use the best device out there like smaller MSOs have and instead re-invented the wheel. Even 500GB is probably enough for most people, especially now that many locals are channels sharing, and some markets have been converted to MPEG-4 for locals, which brings them down to a blurry, 720p mess that only requires about 2GB/hour.



> And while there are TiVo-lovers who would see the X1 as just "good enough," my guess is that if you let all X1 users spend a few days using a TiVo with the Hydra UI, a whole lot of them, maybe even the majority, would choose to stick with X1 even if it didn't cost them any more to use the TiVo. While TiVo definitely has more options for power users, I always found its UI back on TE3 to have off-putting oddities relative to every other DVR I'd ever used. (The worst was pressing the Zoom button on the remote to exit from TiVo Central back to live TV. Completely unintuitive.)


TE3 is about as perfect as you can make a DVR interface. It's really an incredible piece of software, and is very mature. It just works. It just makes sense. It's 100% user intuitive, which cannot be said for almost any other piece of consumer electronics (iOS was at some point, but IMO, no longer is). I haven't used the Zoom button since I had a TiVo on cable, I don't find a need for it. I just use Live TV.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> TE3 is about as perfect as you can make a DVR interface. It's really an incredible piece of software, and is very mature. It just works. It just makes sense. It's 100% user intuitive, which cannot be said for almost any other piece of consumer electronics (iOS was at some point, but IMO, no longer is). I haven't used the Zoom button since I had a TiVo on cable, I don't find a need for it. I just use Live TV.


I think it's kind of one of those "Mac vs. Windows" things, where people who start with one platform find at least some of the user conventions on the other platform to be non-intuitive. In this instance, we're talking about "TiVo vs. all other DVRs in the world." I had used 4 or 5 different DVR systems before coming to TiVo and found that there was very little learning curve in moving between any of those. And then I got a TiVo Roamio OTA and, frankly, found a lot of its UI/UX choices to be strange and frustrating. Some of that probably has to do with TiVo offering more options/features for power-users; it's always a challenge to offer such features without making the UI needlessly complex for the majority of users who will never want to use them. Still, though, some of the choices were just inexplicable to me, like not having an Exit button on the remote (which, I would note, TiVo has added to their peanut remote for the Next Gen IPTV platform because, frankly, everyone expects to have an Exit button except folks who have been using TiVos since 1999). I kept getting the angry gong sound all the time when I began using a TiVo.

So I have to strongly disagree with you about TiVo being "100% user intuitive". There are nice things about the UI/OS, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it's one of those things with cult appeal -- and pretty overrated by members of the cult.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I think it's kind of one of those "Mac vs. Windows" things, where people who start with one platform find at least some of the user conventions on the other platform to be non-intuitive. In this instance, we're talking about "TiVo vs. all other DVRs in the world." I had used 4 or 5 different DVR systems before coming to TiVo and found that there was very little learning curve in moving between any of those. And then I got a TiVo Roamio OTA and, frankly, found a lot of its UI/UX choices to be strange and frustrating. Some of that probably has to do with TiVo offering more options/features for power-users; it's always a challenge to offer such features without making the UI needlessly complex for the majority of users who will never want to use them. Still, though, some of the choices were just inexplicable to me, like not having an Exit button on the remote (which, I would note, TiVo has added to their peanut remote for the Next Gen IPTV platform because, frankly, everyone expects to have an Exit button except folks who have been using TiVos since 1999). I kept getting the angry gong sound all the time when I began using a TiVo.
> 
> So I have to strongly disagree with you about TiVo being "100% user intuitive". There are nice things about the UI/OS, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it's one of those things with cult appeal -- and pretty overrated by members of the cult.


I use both Mac and Windows. Each have their ups and downs. But TiVo and X1 is nothing of the sort. TiVo just far superior to X1. X1 is built by Comcast, for Comcast (and others MSOs with similar business models), to promote their content and interests, not to serve the consumer. It's good enough that most tolerate it.

I have all the TiVo sounds turned off, and why would you need an "Exit" button? Live TV is the sort of default that the thing is spitting out 24/7. What are you even exiting TO? It doesn't even make any sense in the paradigm of a DVR. I've only been using TiVo since 2004, and I can't figure out why the hell you would have an "Exit" button on a DVR? There's Back, TiVo, Live TV, but why Exit?

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't improvements they could make, like, oh, user profiles, or better HD/SD recording options on OnePass, or a plethora of other things, but what I AM saying is that no other DVR has come close to the UI/UX of a TiVo, and very, very few consumer electronics devices are 100% user intuitive like a TiVo. TE3 is fundamentally the same UI that they've been using since 1999, but they fixed many of the weird or illogical quirks that it's had over the years, and today's TE3 is a very mature, refined interface for a DVR.


----------



## Fofer

Bigg said:


> and today's TE3 is a very mature, refined interface for a DVR.


But it's still very ugly and antiquated looking, it's use of big screen real estate is cringeworthy, and its lack of new features (like CEC and auto comskip) make it a non-starter for me.


----------



## Mikeguy

Personally, I don't find the TE3 UI ugly at all, and only antiquated in looks, perhaps, as Windows 7 is. I also have heard people say before that it doesn't use big screen real estate well, but it seems to use the full real estate for me, and well. I do like the sleekness of the TE4, but I'm just not willing to lose the Live Guide, show transferability, and Suggestions for the sleekness* (fortunately, SkipMode is close enough to AutoSkip for me, and my a/v components have their own CEC capability).

* Change that, TiVo, and I'm in.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Fofer said:


> But it's still very ugly and antiquated looking, it's use of big screen real estate is cringeworthy, and it's lack of new features (like CEC and auto comskip) make it a non-starter for me.


The majority of recordings are not processed for skip and some that should be get missed.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

mschnebly said:


> You don't really have to flip through the menus, just use the voice feature. It's almost flawless taking you to settings and features.


Sounds horrid. I'd hate to sit there saying words into the remote while watching tv with others. A silent button push or two is far less intrusive than constantly talking to a remote.


----------



## Bigg

Fofer said:


> But it's still very ugly and antiquated looking.


I suppose aesthetics is subjective, but that's an extremely harsh assessment of TE3, and I would vehemently disagree. I don't find it to waste space on my 65" Samsung UHDTV, I find it offers just what I need and doesn't clutter the screen up with useless crap.


----------



## Fofer

spiderpumpkin said:


> The majority of recordings are not processed for skip and some that should be get missed.


The majority of YOUR recordings, maybe. Not mine.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Fofer said:


> The majority of YOUR recordings, maybe. Not mine.


 BOOM


----------



## Joe3

Fofer said:


> But it's still very ugly and antiquated looking, it's use of big screen real estate is cringeworthy, and its lack of new features (like CEC and auto comskip) make it a non-starter for me.


Some of us don't want to date it.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I have all the TiVo sounds turned off, and why would you need an "Exit" button? Live TV is the sort of default that the thing is spitting out 24/7. What are you even exiting TO? It doesn't even make any sense in the paradigm of a DVR. I've only been using TiVo since 2004, and I can't figure out why the hell you would have an "Exit" button on a DVR? There's Back, TiVo, Live TV, but why Exit?


Because sometimes when you're playing a recording, or you're watching live TV but you're behind the timeline, you go into the TiVo menu system for some reason. And then you want to exit out of that back to what you were watching. Pressing Live TV will dump you out of a recording into, uh, live TV. And if you were already watching live TV but were behind the timeline, doesn't it jump you up to present time?

Again, TiVo has finally relented and followed suit with virtually every other DVR in existence by putting an Exit button on their Android TV/IPTV remotes. "Live TV" and "Exit" are not the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that lots of DVR remotes have both buttons.



Bigg said:


> Now, I'm not saying that there aren't improvements they could make, like, oh, user profiles, or better HD/SD recording options on OnePass, or a plethora of other things, but what I AM saying is that no other DVR has come close to the UI/UX of a TiVo, and very, very few consumer electronics devices are 100% user intuitive like a TiVo. TE3 is fundamentally the same UI that they've been using since 1999, but they fixed many of the weird or illogical quirks that it's had over the years, and today's TE3 is a very mature, refined interface for a DVR.


Which is why TiVo, after a lot of market research, decided to dump TE3 and go with a heavily revamped TE4. Got it.


----------



## Fofer

Joe3 said:


> Some of us don't want to date it.


Yes, but all of us look at it, and spend money on TVs (often with big screens with higher and higher resolutions) in order to navigate, find and start content from it.


----------



## snerd

Joe3 said:


> Some of us don't want to date it.


So just a one-night stand?


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> I suppose aesthetics is subjective, but that's an extremely harsh assessment of TE3, and I would vehemently disagree. I don't find it to waste space on my 65" Samsung UHDTV, I find it offers just what I need and doesn't clutter the screen up with useless crap.


I spent over an hour this week messing with TE3, on my last lifetime Premiere that I dusted off. Ooof!! I could not stand messing with that UI. It is just terrible in functionality and aesthetics when compared to TE4. Just about everything I messed with is better or much easier to do in TE4.


----------



## Mikeguy

aaronwt said:


> I spent over an hour this week messing with TE3, on my last lifetime Premiere that I dusted off. Ooof!! I could not stand messing with that UI. It is just terrible in functionality and aesthetics when compared to TE4. Just about everything I messed with is better or much easier to do in TE4.


Like Suggestions, the Live Guide, and transfers.  *

* I apologize, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Fofer

I happily sacrifice those features which I don’t use or care about, for a UI and UX that doesn’t look like it’s stuck in 1999.


----------



## Mikeguy

As I use those functions, it's function over form (which I indeed find fine enough--far from 199, lol). But certainly, if there's no use for the functions, no need to stay with them and the UI.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, I use CEC and auto-comskip every day, every time I watch anything, so I know what you mean


----------



## krkaufman

So is there something happening with ads on TiVos?


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, pre-rolls on TE4 for now, that you can opt-out of by calling when they appear on your box.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Because sometimes when you're playing a recording, or you're watching live TV but you're behind the timeline, you go into the TiVo menu system for some reason. And then you want to exit out of that back to what you were watching. Pressing Live TV will dump you out of a recording into, uh, live TV. And if you were already watching live TV but were behind the timeline, doesn't it jump you up to present time?


Yeah, Live TV sends you back to live. If I want to go back to something that's on live, I record it, so that I can go back to the recording. I have the live window on TiVo Central turned off, I just find it annoying on OTA, so I don't have something to Zoom in and out of. It was OK on cable, as I'd put CNN or MSNBC or something up there that was just sort of background.



> Again, TiVo has finally relented and followed suit with virtually every other DVR in existence by putting an Exit button on their Android TV/IPTV remotes. "Live TV" and "Exit" are not the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that lots of DVR remotes have both buttons.


I don't see the point. I love TiVo, but let's be real, since they rolled out the Haxe re-write with DTA back in late 2013, nothing significant has changed or improved in TiVo's software, and that's a good thing (other than not having user profiles GRRRR). There's really nothing that can or should be changed in the current TE3 software, which hasn't really changed since 2013. The hardware, while much faster on paper, hasn't really gained functionality since the Premiere, other than various HDD and tuner configurations, and a few lucky ducks on FiOS who can get 4k with the Bolt.



> Which is why TiVo, after a lot of market research, decided to dump TE3 and go with a heavily revamped TE4. Got it.


They probably wanted something fancy to show off to investors and MSOs, even though for users, TE3 is excellent, and there is no need to change much of anything, other than adding new features (I'm looking at you, user profiles).



aaronwt said:


> I spent over an hour this week messing with TE3, on my last lifetime Premiere that I dusted off. Ooof!! I could not stand messing with that UI. It is just terrible in functionality and aesthetics when compared to TE4. Just about everything I messed with is better or much easier to do in TE4.


I've never had a TE4 box, I see no need for it, but how can TE3 possibly be bad? It does exactly what a DVR should, with no fuss, with a very easy to use interface. Everything just makes sense. It's like the iPhone 8+, a refined and finely tuned version of the last of it's type.


----------



## mschnebly

spiderpumpkin said:


> Sounds horrid. I'd hate to sit there saying words into the remote while watching tv with others. A silent button push or two is far less intrusive than constantly talking to a remote.


Well, how often do you sit and flip through the menus while watching tv with others?


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Yeah, Live TV sends you back to live. If I want to go back to something that's on live, I record it, so that I can go back to the recording. I have the live window on TiVo Central turned off, I just find it annoying on OTA, so I don't have something to Zoom in and out of. It was OK on cable, as I'd put CNN or MSNBC or something up there that was just sort of background.
> 
> I don't see the point. I love TiVo, but let's be real, since they rolled out the Haxe re-write with DTA back in late 2013, nothing significant has changed or improved in TiVo's software, and that's a good thing (other than not having user profiles GRRRR). There's really nothing that can or should be changed in the current TE3 software, which hasn't really changed since 2013. The hardware, while much faster on paper, hasn't really gained functionality since the Premiere, other than various HDD and tuner configurations, and a few lucky ducks on FiOS who can get 4k with the Bolt.
> 
> They probably wanted something fancy to show off to investors and MSOs, even though for users, TE3 is excellent, and there is no need to change much of anything, other than adding new features (I'm looking at you, user profiles).
> 
> I've never had a TE4 box, I see no need for it, but how can TE3 possibly be bad? It does exactly what a DVR should, with no fuss, with a very easy to use interface. Everything just makes sense. It's like the iPhone 8+, a refined and finely tuned version of the last of it's type.


Well compared to the SDUI TE3 is better. But TE4 does most things better. And also presents things on screen better.

Of course it's all subjective. But personally I really hated using the TE3 UI after I started using the TE4 UI.

Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


----------



## aaronwt

Mikeguy said:


> Like Suggestions, the Live Guide, and transfers.  *
> 
> * I apologize, I couldn't resist.


I never use suggestions. Only when I used to beta test their software. I have no need for the Live guide. I don't watch live TV. And I have no need for transfers, since I can stream my content to other TiVos. And it works the same way as if I was playing the show locally.

And I can still transfer a show to PC if I want(which I do for most of my One Passes). And with plex I can view it from a multitude of devices anywhere around the world.
I have a PC running Plex dedicated to HD content. And another PC running Plex dedicated to UHD content.

Although these days I'm more likely to watch a show from a streaming service than from my TiVo recordings. Since the OTA quality in the DC area is so bad now. And The quality from FiOS and Comcast is also terrible now too.
Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


----------



## samccfl99

Why was this crazy thread created that has 70 pages in less than a month? Yes, I notice it sometimes, but really, to complain about some little picayune thing when they could not put in some of the BASICS from TE3 into TE4. Plenty to complain about besides this sh*t. This is why I don't come here much...I totally agree with @Mikeguy on TE3...As We All Know!!!


----------



## Fofer

samccfl99 said:


> Why was this crazy thread created that has 70 pages in less than a month?


Because inserting pre-roll video ads in our recordings is a sleazy move by TiVo that feels born out of desperation.


----------



## krkaufman

samccfl99 said:


> Why was this crazy thread created that has 70 pages in less than a month? Yes, I notice it sometimes, but really, to complain about some little picayune thing when they could not put in some of the BASICS from TE3 into TE4.


This made this whole thread worth it.


----------



## samccfl99

krkaufman said:


> This made this whole thread worth it.


I'll take that as a compliment...You too, Joe...


----------



## johnfasc

samccfl99 said:


> Why was this crazy thread created that has 70 pages in less than a month? Yes, I notice it sometimes, but really, to complain about some little picayune thing when they could not put in some of the BASICS from TE3 into TE4. Plenty to complain about besides this sh*t. This is why I don't come here much...I totally agree with @Mikeguy on TE3...As We All Know!!!


Thats what I have been trying to say, but yours just put it out there as it should be. They change the software, te3 to te4 I will get used to it, they change the thumbs up, no problem, they change the whatever, I'm good. As long as its not life changing. They put in an ad that takes a button push to kill so they can keep up, no problem here.....


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> Well compared to the SDUI TE3 is better. But TE4 does most things better. And also presents things on screen better.
> 
> Of course it's all subjective. But personally I really hated using the TE3 UI after I started using the TE4 UI.


I just don't fine TE3 lacking anything. It's everything a DVR should be. It's basically a refined HD version of the SDUI, which has been great for two decades.


----------



## HerronScott

aaronwt said:


> I spent over an hour this week messing with TE3, on my last lifetime Premiere that I dusted off. Ooof!! I could not stand messing with that UI. It is just terrible in functionality and aesthetics when compared to TE4. Just about everything I messed with is better or much easier to do in TE4.


Can't see how TE3 could be described as "terrible in functionality".

Scott


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

TE3 Users Unite!


----------



## HerronScott

Fofer said:


> I happily sacrifice those features which I don't use or care about, for a UI and UX that doesn't look like it's stuck in 1999.


Stop exaggerating as this was 1999 (and I remember it fondly as it changed how we watched TV when we got our first TiVo in 2000). 










And I have no issues with how this has evolved over the past 20 years and works for us on our 65" plasma.










Scott


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

OMG has _The Bachelor_ been on that long?!? 

We're loving TE3 on our 79" screen too. No problems at all.


----------



## slowbiscuit

HerronScott said:


> And I have no issues with how this has evolved over the past 20 years and works for us on our 65" plasma.
> 
> View attachment 43820


Except for the massive waste of space that is the Discovery Bar, of course. But that's yet another lost cause.


----------



## JoeKustra

I really wish all programs included the year.


----------



## Tony_T

HerronScott said:


> Stop exaggerating as this was 1999 (and I remember it fondly as it changed how we watched TV when we got our first TiVo in 2000).
> 
> View attachment 43818
> 
> 
> And I have no issues with how this has evolved over the past 20 years and works for us on our 65" plasma.
> 
> View attachment 43820
> 
> 
> Scott


Hmmm... Could be that the folks who hate Hydra still use Cathode Ray Tube TVs.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tony_T said:


> Hmmm... Could be that the folks who hate Hydra still use Cathode Ray Tube TVs.


No, we hate Hydra because we love SHIELD. Oh, wait...


----------



## Megamind

And yet another thread devolves into a discussion of TE3 vs Hydra ...


----------



## Mikeguy

slowbiscuit said:


> Except for the massive waste of space that is the Discovery Bar, of course. But that's yet another lost cause.


Not quite "massive," but I understand your point. I just think of it as graphic design and eye candy.


----------



## samccfl99

JoeKustra said:


> I really wish all programs included the year.


Too much trouble for them to include it in ANY displays. Luckily, _*Sometimes*_ a recording has the correct date in the Info.

I get the year from the grid in KMTTG if I need to know...AND I LIKE TO SOMETIMES!!!

*Wow, we Agree, Joe!!!*


----------



## Hichhiker

Mikeguy said:


> Not quite "massive," but I understand your point. I just think of it as graphic design and eye sore.


There, Fixed it for you ;-)


----------



## aristoBrat

Bigg said:


> I just don't fine TE3 lacking anything. It's everything a DVR should be. It's basically a refined HD version of the SDUI, which has been great for two decades.


It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.

As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


----------



## JoeKustra

samccfl99 said:


> *Wow, we Agree, Joe!!!*


It's those little things that make a nice day. 

I've been in Ocala for the last two weeks dog-sitting. I won't drink the water.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

In the same league. You mean the Little League?


----------



## Bigg

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.
> 
> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


Disagree. TE3 is excellent.


----------



## exdishguy

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.
> 
> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


Are you comparing DVR UIs or the Tivo DVR UI to streamer box UIs? TE3 is still miles ahead of any other DVR UI IMO. Comparing TE3 to a streamer box UI is apples-to-oranges and where I think Tivo has gone wrong. TE4 is an attempt to catch up to streamer boxes with a streamer UX at the expense of taking several steps backward with their DVR UI.


----------



## exdishguy

Megamind said:


> And yet another thread devolves into a discussion of TE3 vs Hydra ...


Well TE4 introduced pre-roll ads and TE3 doesn't have them so it would seem logical both interfaces would be included in the discussion in this thread. But yea...it gets old. So goes it on a discussion forum.


----------



## Hichhiker

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.
> 
> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


I agree that current trend in UI is toward flashy, busy, and hard to use in disguise of "smart" (i.e. "we tell you what you want instead of you tell us what you want"). TE3 is certainly none of those things, it is simple, useful, and predictable - but its graphics are dated, and it sure could have used a good refresh (and no - the half-ass transition to HD did not count). To be fair, TE4 gotten much better since its introduction, it mostly works now, and they cut down on stupid useless stuff - though there is still a ton of unnecessary busy UI, multiple confusing presentation of (nearly) same data, while the most basic features present in the old UI (like, for example, being able to flip from one episode of a TV show to the next without going through 10 menus) are still missing and more are being removed by the day (Remember when a movie description included its year? That was too useful of a feature, off with its head!). But I guess it is flashier and more HD ready... (Though I still wondering what is up with the broken, jagged arrows backdrop it shows all over the place during transitions - it always looks like it just crashed and is displaying a corrupted image)


----------



## JoeKustra

Nooooooooooooooooo! Please get back on topic. There's no shortage of TE3 v TE4 or I hate TE4 threads.


----------



## Hichhiker

JoeKustra said:


> Nooooooooooooooooo! Please get back on topic. There's no shortage of TE3 v TE4 or I hate TE4 threads.


But it is so easy... fair enough though ;-)


----------



## Charles R

aristoBrat said:


> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


I think virtually any new user would instantly dismiss TiVo if it booted up with TE3... much like dismissing a company when their Internet presence hasn't been updated for decades...


----------



## longrider

Back on topic, i wonder if TiVo has halted the rollout due to all the negative feedback. Nobody new has reported ads for several days now


----------



## JoeKustra

longrider said:


> Back on topic, i wonder if TiVo has halted the rollout due to all the negative feedback. Nobody new has reported ads for several days now


Maybe the ads are on the same schedule as guide updates - random.


----------



## Hichhiker

longrider said:


> Back on topic, i wonder if TiVo has halted the rollout due to all the negative feedback. Nobody new has reported ads for several days now


Not sure. I think they bet hard on it and painted themselves into a corner. If they give up now - they definitely lose, and if they stay the course there is a small chance of winning. Personally, I have not gotten them yet, but I got some other weird behavior I suspect is related - anything played from Minis suddenly added a long pause(7-10 secs) before it starts, but no ads, and it does not happen on the main unit. I kinda want to get the ads so that I can call to remove them - while they still allow that, but the writing is on the wall. I was planning to get a newer model to switch to OTA, but now that is on hold while I am exploring alternatives. I am pleasantly surprised with Channels, They have all the key features I want - smart season passes, commercial marking and autoskip, and some features are even smarter, like allowing you to automatically keep all unwatched plus the last x watched episodes, etc, But their UI needs a bit more work , as it is of the "modern" useless variety that TE4 is aspiring to...the entire UI feels as annoying as the Discovery Bar.


----------



## krkaufman

exdishguy said:


> Well TE4 introduced pre-roll ads...


Interesting; so there's something happening with ads on TiVos?


----------



## Fofer

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.


Or that has any SDUI whatsoever. Which TE3 _still_ has. Ridiculous. *SD!!!*


----------



## exdishguy

Fofer said:


> Or that has any SDUI whatsoever. Which TE3 _still_ has. Ridiculous. *SD!!!*


Sorry but which menu/sub-menus? Or do you just mean the menus are scaled up? Just curious.


----------



## Fofer

exdishguy said:


> Sorry but which menu/sub-menus? Or do you just mean the menus are scaled up? Just curious.


Last I checked, all of the ones mentioned here: Will Bolt still have SD setups screens?


----------



## ufo4sale

The way this thread as gone it would be company suicide if TiVo goes through with this. I'll talk to the "higher ups" to see what I can do to appease TiVo's fans, who ever is left that is.


----------



## Mikeguy

ufo4sale said:


> The way this thread as gone it would be company suicide if TiVo goes through with this. I'll talk to the "higher ups" to see what I can do to appease TiVo's fans, who ever is left that is.


(While you're doing that, would you please also: get the Live Guide onto TE4; get workable Suggestions on it; bring on-box, inter-box transfers to it; and bring back PC -> TE4 transfers?  )


----------



## dianebrat

Fofer said:


> Or that has any SDUI whatsoever. Which TE3 _still_ has. Ridiculous. *SD!!!*


Some of us really don't care that random screens that we never see in normal operation are in SD.
They can have my TE3 when they pry the Live Guide out of my cold dead hands... 
I keep a TE4 machine in the stack so I can see how they're doing, but there's so much about it I have no interest in that I have no intention to give up Live Guide and lack of preroll ads for IMNSHO a glorified cableco DVR interface.


----------



## HerronScott

Fofer said:


> Or that has any SDUI whatsoever. Which TE3 _still_ has. Ridiculous. *SD!!!*





ilovedvrs said:


> One part of the Tivo Interface that has not been upgrade are the setups screens, channel select and other configuration pages.
> 
> I always laughed when entering these pages as it sent me back to 1999.
> 
> Will the new 2015 Bolt, still have settings pages from 1999?
> 
> SD instead of 4k?





atmuscarella said:


> Non of the screens will be native 4K. However my understanding is everything will be HD (and have the preview window) except the Network Settings screens.


What are you specifically referring to in that thread which is a really old post (Channel select and Network Settings are in HD). You seem to have ignored the other post where it was mentioned to you that the TE3 experience on Roamio was brought up to the UI level to match the Bolt with all HD menu's (excluding the CableCARD menu which is pass-through and I'm assuming still the initial setup screens where they don't want to assume TV resolution).

Scott


----------



## Charles R

dianebrat said:


> I keep a TE4 machine in the stack so I can see how they're doing, but there's so much about it I have no interest in that I have no intention to give up Live Guide and lack of preroll ads for IMNSHO a glorified cableco DVR interface.


In some (rare) cases I can see someone preferring TE3 however since pre-roll ads can be dismissed with one call it's rather difficult to believe one's (entire) justification when they are blindly overlooking that fact. Not to mention the new (improved) Live Guide...


----------



## dianebrat

Charles R said:


> In some (rare) cases I can see someone preferring TE3 however since pre-roll ads can be dismissed with one call it's rather difficult to believe one's (entire) justification when they are blindly overlooking that fact. Not to mention the new (improved) Live Guide...


Not seeing anything "new or improved" about the hydra guide, so they can keep on walking.


----------



## exdishguy

Charles R said:


> In some (rare) cases I can see someone preferring TE3 however since pre-roll ads can be dismissed with one call it's rather difficult to believe one's (entire) justification when they are blindly overlooking that fact. Not to mention the new (improved) Live Guide...


Blindly?

Why is it necessary to get personal just because some of us prefer TE3? It's one thing to point out things you like/dislike about either interface - its entirely another to constantly resort outright (or passive aggressive) insults. For instance, here is what I don't like about TE4:

1. Visibly slower than TE3. Even on a Bolt, TE4 lags on many menus. In part because of the animations and mostly because they download so many more images.
2. More clicks are required to perform certain tasks in TE4. Clicks, not voice commands. I don't care to yell at my remote. But when I go to navigate a UX I would hope that I can accomplish a task with less clicks. TE4 requires more in many cases. e.g. want to see what is on the other 5 tuners in TE3? Press right-cursor or Info and click down one time. There you go. Everything is right there to see. Now try and do that in TE4. You'll see about 2.5 giant tile-pictures and if you want to see what is on the 6th tuner, I believe you'll need to click down two more times. Probably the most egregious is how many more clicks it takes to delete a show in My Shows. I no longer have TE4 installed, however, my recollection was that it required another 3-4 clicks just to delete a single show.
4. The grid guide is boring and requires - yet again - many many more right clicks to see what is on one channel 8+ hours later. You can mock Live Guide all you want but with it I can see 8 hours out on one screen much easier.
5. Then we have transfers. TE3 has it. TE4 does not.
6. Thumbs up/down and recommendations. TE3 has it, TE4 does not. Instead, TE4 recommends shows based on....well, I don't really know how it recommends shows. I know I've never seen a single damn show that was related to anything I had watched or wanted to watch on TE4.

I'll stop there. Now what you'll notice is that I in no way implied that you are a friggin' moron for enduring the clumsy attempt by Tivo to catch up with streamer boxes. Nor did I assail millennials for being too damn lazy to read vs. needing to see pictures of everything. There is no need to make this personal and yet, TE4 guys love to insult TE3 supporters as though they sat and wrote the code for TE4 themselves. If you like TE4, have at it. Personally, I really want to like TE4 and had hoped they'd eventually pull key Tivo features forward out of TE3 into TE4. But the pre-rolls tells a very different story. One in which a weatherman wants to monetize his install base with adverts and build a weather-channel like platform to finally sell off Tivo.


----------



## Charles R

exdishguy said:


> Visibly slower than TE3.


Been using TE4 since release date and haven't noticed such.


> More clicks are required to perform certain tasks in TE4.


Which means certain tasks require fewer (or the same).


> You can mock Live Guide all you want but with it I can see 8 hours out on one screen much easier.


In almost two decades of TiVo usage I have never wanted to see 8 hours out "easier" And I believe AutoSkip would trump however many seconds I might "save" with endless hours of seamless viewing via its auto advancing.



> Then we have transfers. TE3 has it. TE4 does not.


An absolute that's not (entirely) true.


> Thumbs up/down and recommendations. TE3 has it, TE4 does not.


Again an absolute that not entirely true.

Per my post I can see some preferring TE3 (not sure where the personal comes in) but also per my post most often the "reasons" given are not logical rather tunnel vision - such as TE4 has ads. I simply don't understand why those who prefer TE3 can't simply present their reasons without "warping" reality.

Such as I prefer to pass up on endless seamless viewing for something I might look at every so often.  I never said one shouldn't prefer TE3... rather if you do I'd like to understand the actual reason(s). I have zero recordings on my TiVo and have been looking for (enough) reasons to switch back to TE3 (for the heck of it) and have yet to come up with any...


----------



## Mikeguy

Charles R said:


> In some (rare) cases I can see someone preferring TE3 however since pre-roll ads can be dismissed with one call it's rather difficult to believe one's (entire) justification when they are blindly overlooking that fact. Not to mention the new (improved) Live Guide...





Charles R said:


> Been using TE4 since release date and haven't noticed such.
> 
> Which means certain tasks require fewer (or the same).
> 
> In almost two decades of TiVo usage I have never wanted to see 8 hours out "easier" And I believe AutoSkip would trump however many seconds I might "save" with endless hours of seamless viewing via its auto advancing.
> 
> An absolute that's not (entirely) true.
> 
> Again an absolute that not entirely true.
> 
> Per my post I can see some preferring TE3 (not sure where the personal comes in) but also per my post most often the "reasons" given are not logical rather tunnel vision - such as TE4 has ads. I simply don't understand why those who prefer TE3 can't simply present their reasons without "warping" reality.
> 
> Such as I prefer to pass up on endless seamless viewing for something I might look at every so often.  I never said one shouldn't prefer TE3... rather if you do I'd like to understand the actual reason(s). I have zero recordings on my TiVo and have been looking for (enough) reasons to switch back to TE3 (for the heck of it) and have yet to come up with any...


I know that you say that you want to understand why some of us prefer TE3 over TE4, but you then seem to deny the explanations. I'd _like _to try TE4: it looks way sleek, and it seems nice and new and who doesn't like that? But I'm staying on TE3 because (reiterating the above posts):

(1) I like the Live Guide and just find the Grid Guide _painful _to use--I even forced myself to use the Grid Guide for 2 weeks as an experiment, thinking that time might make me like it, and finally gave up early, as I was using the Guide less than before because it was so unpleasant to use for my normal scanning purposes to see what I might want to record for a longer portion of the day (it also just seemed unpleasant to look at graphically, for a reason I have a hard time putting my finger on--more crowded?);

(2) Suggestions_ just doesn't work _on TE4, and I use the feature avidly on TE3 where it truly catches shows that I would like to see and would have missed otherwise (perhaps I've trained the feature well using the thumbs buttons? the suggestions I get are at well north of 75% accuracy); and

(3) I like having the ability to transfer a show to my TiVo boxes from my PC, and to easily transfer shows between my TiVo boxes using the on-box (rather than separately online via a PC and the TiVo Online webpage) ability--and especially where TE4 transfers seem to be broken, stopping at ~10 minutes in on shows.

Fix those things and I'm all in.


----------



## shwru980r

Mikeguy said:


> Like Suggestions, the Live Guide, and transfers.  *
> 
> * I apologize, I couldn't resist.


And larger 3rd party hard drives.


----------



## shwru980r

I like experience of being able to browse the suggestions every so often to find something that I hadn't thought of watching. With my 8TB Roamio I have plenty of suggestions choose from. This experience is exclusive to TE3.


----------



## exdishguy

Charles R said:


> Been using TE4 since release date and haven't noticed such.


So have I. Several versions of it including the most recent gem of a release.



> Which means certain tasks require fewer (or the same).


Uh? Be specific. You haven't used TE3 in a very long time so maybe you've forgotten. But please do tell. What can be done in TE4 with fewer clicks of the remote than TE3? Specifics. I gave you two. Can you provide at least one?



> In almost two decades of TiVo usage I have never wanted to see 8 hours out "easier" And I believe AutoSkip would trump however many seconds I might "save" with endless hours of seamless viewing via its auto advancing.


What an absurd statement. Putting aside the obvious apples and oranges of your comparison, I'd love to have you add up all of the "time" you're saving with autoskip. Especially since most users are lucky to see 1/3rd of their recorded shows flagged for SKIP let alone autoskip. Please report back with all your savings. Meanwhile, wanna know what is in Live Guide 99.99% of the time I look? 8 hours of shows.



> An absolute that's not (entirely) true.


You're right. I have to LOG INTO A FRIGGIN WEB SITE to transfer a show from box to box instead of just letting me do it within the UX on the boxes themselves.



> Again an absolute that not entirely true.


Completely true. TE4 does not support thumbs up/down. Why are you trying to obfuscate this? They took thumbs up/down out of TE4.



> Per my post I can see some preferring TE3 (not sure where the personal comes in)


When you say things like we're "blindly" then it seems as though you think we're uninformed idiots.



> but also per my post most often the "reasons" given are not logical rather tunnel vision - such as TE4 has ads.


Are you really that daft? You literally just insulted us again. "Not logical" "Tunnel vision" Please do enlighten us with your gifted ways of reasoning. You're so woke and we're so blinded by our inferior way of thinking.

TE4 pre-roll ads were an abomination. And had it not been for the outrage on this forum coupled with very negative press I doubt we'd be able to opt out. So...you're welcome.



> I simply don't understand why those who prefer TE3 can't simply present their reasons without "warping" reality.


We present it over and over again. You can't even be bothered to roll back and see what you're missing (or attack us from a credible view point). Instead, you rely on questioning our ability to reason and lack of "wokedness." (yes, I made that word up. My teenage kids will be so proud)



> Such as I prefer to pass up on endless seamless viewing for something I might look at every so often.  I never said one shouldn't prefer TE3... rather if you do I'd like to understand the actual reason(s). I have zero recordings on my TiVo and have been looking for (enough) reasons to switch back to TE3 (for the heck of it) and have yet to come up with any...


For the heck of it, I encourage you to try it out. And by all means, once you do, please post how to do the same things in TE4 just as fast or intuitively and we'll all be all ears. Because believe me, I want to be on a supported code base - not a code base in "maintenance mode."


----------



## Charles R

exdishguy said:


> You literally just insulted us again.


Do yourself a favor and add me to your ignore list. I'll return the favor as I clearly don't understand your approach.


----------



## Charles R

Mikeguy said:


> I know that you say that you want to understand why some of us prefer TE3 over TE4, but you then seem to deny the explanations.


I don't deny them rather I find some of them disingenuousness - as covered in previous posts.



> I like the Live Guide and just find the Grid Guide _painful _to use


I covered this in my previous post. However I find it hard to "believe" it's painful. Based on losing a few seconds (perhaps a week).



> Suggestions_ just doesn't work _on TE4...


If they don't work for you fine. Suggestions haven't worked for me during the past two decades.



> I like having the ability to transfer a show to my TiVo boxes from my PC, and to easily transfer shows between my TiVo boxes using the on-box (rather than separately online via a PC and the TiVo Online webpage)


You prefer one transfer method over another... again fine for you. Again neither methods interests me.

As the original post stated I can understand some preferring TE3 and I would never question someone's preference rather I'm addressing if their reasoning is "valid" for the typical TiVo user. Especially going forward and would prefer to leave the "emotions" out of it. That's all I got so in lieu of repeating myself (endlessly) I'm out of the topic.


----------



## Mikeguy

Charles R said:


> I don't deny them rather I find some of them disingenuousness - as covered in previous posts.
> 
> I covered this in my previous post. However I find it hard to "believe" it's painful. Based on losing a few seconds (perhaps a week).
> 
> If they don't work for you fine. Suggestions haven't worked for me during the past two decades.
> 
> You prefer one transfer method over another... again fine for you. Again neither methods interests me.
> 
> As the original post stated I can understand some preferring TE3 and I would never question someone's preference rather I'm addressing if their reasoning is "valid" for the typical TiVo user. Especially going forward and would prefer leave the "emotions" out of it.


Absolutely, if the features that make TE3 beneficial are of no import, it makes no sense to be on it--I'd jump and play with my shiny new TE4 toy in a moment!  (In fact, I may experiment with TE4 on a TiVo box that I have to wipe and re-set-up anyway--I always can roll back to TE3.)

As to Suggestions, I've read other people say that the "old" Suggestions hasn't worked for them as well, and I've never understood why. As I said, it works well for me, and the only thing that I can think of (apart from my sparkling personality) is that early on, a significant part of time when I was deleting a show, I would thumb it down or up prior to doing so (and using the different thumb levels); I still try to remember to do that. I like to think that this has made Suggestions more accurate for me.

And as to the guide, in my Grid Guide experiment (I think I lasted 1-1/2 weeks before I finally gave up--it truly was feeling like I was punishing myself, and I finally thought that it was just crazy to continue on doing that), it's significantly more than just a few seconds (for me) of extra time in using the Grid Guide over the Live Guide--it could be half-a-minute or more of extra time per use, but all depending on the use. It also was just irritating, knowing that I was wasting time. But more than that, there was this psychological distaste from the Grid Guide--something about its organization doesn't fit how my mind works, resulting in its use just being somewhat unpleasant, for me (although others seem to find this as well). It no longer was the pleasant "TiVo Experience"--it was kind of the equivalent of sponging down the sink after use.*

I'm just happy that TiVo has allowed TE3 to remain, for others of a like mind. But I suspect that there will come a day.

* I get something of the same feeling from using the record button to record a show, when, instead of just doing it, TiVo gives me a second screen asking me if I want to record the show, or, worse, when that second screen comes up and the highlighted entry is whether I want to get the show live, and so I then further need to cursor down to get to the "record" option.


----------



## aaronwt

With the guide it really depends on how you watch TV. For me, I don't watch live TV. So switching to the grid guide was no issue. I am not going through the guide looking for things to record. If I am looking for something, I will do a voice search to bring it up. Then I can set it to record.

But again this is my use of the TiVos. Of course other people might do things differently. Where the use of the Live Guide makes more sense.( i did use the live guide for many years before the Bolt)


----------



## bobfrank

Charles R said:


> *In some (rare) cases* I can see someone preferring TE3 however since pre-roll ads can be dismissed with one call it's rather difficult to believe one's (entire) justification when they are blindly overlooking that fact. Not to mention the new (improved) Live Guide...


If you read through the various threads you can see that it's not a rare case for someone here to prefer TE3. You'd also see that pre-roll ads are not at the top of the list of reasons many of us prefer TE3.

I won't add to the least of reasons TE3 if preferable for a lot of us. There are plenty of posts in this thread and in the several TE3 vs TE4 threads that list the reasons.


----------



## exdishguy

bobfrank said:


> If you read through the various threads you can see that it's not a rare case for someone here to prefer TE3. You'd also see that pre-roll ads are not at the top of the list of reasons many of us prefer TE3.
> 
> I won't add to the least of reasons TE3 if preferable for a lot of us. There are plenty of posts in this thread and in the several TE3 vs TE4 threads that list the reasons.


Just ignore him. It's the only recommendation or commentary he's made that made sense to me. Moving right along...


----------



## Charles R

bobfrank said:


> If you read through the various threads you can see that it's not a rare case for someone here to prefer TE3.


I'm addressing features not users (per se). In the number of hours spent using TiVo I'm guessing it's very rare. What percentage of time (using TiVo monthly) is wasted not having Live Guide? I'd estimate I look at the guide well less than .003 of my TiVo usage. As such it makes up 0% of my user experience.



> You'd also see that pre-roll ads are not at the top of the list of reasons many of us prefer TE3.


I'd hope not as there is no reason to avoid TE4 because of them - one call and they are gone.

Now in the scheme of things if one doesn't want to embrace another form of transfers and they are important to them I can understand them wanting to stand still. Makes sense for them even though it doesn't to me.


----------



## Joe3

Charles R said:


> I'm addressing feature not users (per se). In the number of hours spent using TiVo I'm guessing it's very rare. What percentage of time (using TiVo monthly) is wasted not having Live Guide? I'd estimate I look at the guide well less than .003 of my TiVo usage. As such it makes up 0% of my user experience.
> 
> I'd hope not as there is no reason to avoid TE4 because of them.
> 
> Now in the scheme of things if one doesn't want to embrace another form of transfers and they are important to them I can understand them wanting to stand still. Makes sense for them even though it doesn't to me.


Again...Charlie?
Come on, man~


----------



## bobfrank

Charles R said:


> I'm addressing features not users (per se). In the number of hours spent using TiVo I'm guessing it's very rare. What percentage of time (using TiVo monthly) is wasted not having Live Guide? I'd estimate I look at the guide well less than .003 of my TiVo usage. As such it makes up 0% of my user experience.
> 
> I'd hope not as there is no reason to avoid TE4 because of them - one call and they are gone.
> 
> Now in the scheme of things if one doesn't want to embrace another form of transfers and they are important to them I can understand them wanting to stand still. Makes sense for them even though it doesn't to me.


The guide is of minor importance to me personally, however my wife uses it extensively to find movies to record. Transfers, both Tivo to Tivo and PC to Tivo are important to me. I use them frequently.

It only takes me a fraction of a second to click one button to skip commercials on shows that have that availability. So while autoskip might be convenient on occasion, I wouldn't change just because of it.

What I really like about TE3 is the simplicity and ease of navigating to shows and other features I use. I find it much easier to use than TE4. Apparently a lot of us here agree.


----------



## pldoolittle

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.
> 
> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


Fashion over function. You would do well in The Capitol"


----------



## exdishguy

aristoBrat said:


> It's 2019. Relevant technology doesn't have a UI that looks like TE3.
> 
> As refined as TE3 may be, I think TiVo would have an even bigger problem selling new units if they didn't have a UI that was in the same league as most of the other modern DVRs.


Such as? What DVR (not a streamer box...a cable or OTA DVR) box has a modern UI better than TE3? Seriously - I might buy it.


----------



## bobfrank

exdishguy said:


> Such as? What DVR (not a streamer box...a cable or OTA DVR) box has a modern UI better than TE3? Seriously - I might buy it.


The gearshift lever, either on the steering column on on the floor, is old, dated technology. Very dated for sure. Back in the 1950's Chrysler moved to a sleek, modern user interface with a push button transmission on several of its automobiles. It turned out that old dated technology was better.


----------



## CloudAtlas

exdishguy said:


> Such as? What DVR (not a streamer box...a cable or OTA DVR) box has a modern UI better than TE3? Seriously - I might buy it.


Honestly most parents don't talk about their kids as fondly as you talk about TE3. It's just a DVR UI. You can't tell me your DVR is that important a thing in your life that it's worth spending hours a day defending it? And you get so emotional about it since everything is personal to you (it isn't since no one on TCF uses their real name!) I had no problem understanding what Charles wrote, regardless if I agree, I too don't understand this fanaticism towards TE3 since TE4's release.


----------



## NorthAlabama

if given a choice between pretty pictures and animation or ease of operation, i'll choose ease of operation, hands down, every time.

that said, some tivo owners must spend a heck of a lot more time looking at their user interface than i do for it to matter this much.


----------



## slice1900

Why in the world are people shilling for TE4 here? Some people just don't get it, and don't understand that not everyone watches TV the same way they do. Preferring TE3 because of the features it has that TE4 lacks or because it is more stable (since they have pretty much quit making changes to it now as far as I can tell) doesn't make someone wrong, just different.

I wonder if the people trying to sell us on TE4 are the same people who will tell us why a SUV is the only vehicle you should consider or why we should all eat a gluten free diet? I don't tell you why you should prefer TE3 just because it is the best choice for me, so don't try to tell me I'm wrong for not wanting to have anything to do with TE4. And I'll drive a coupe and eat all the gluten I want, too!


----------



## Mikeguy

CloudAtlas said:


> Honestly most parents don't talk about their kids as fondly as you talk about TE3.


Well, for some people, TE3 gives more trouble-free enjoyment.*

* Yes, I'm single and without children.


----------



## Mikeguy

Dare I raise and ask in this thread:

Has anyone with a Roamio box received pre-roll ads yet?


----------



## exdishguy

CloudAtlas said:


> Honestly most parents don't talk about their kids as fondly as you talk about TE3. It's just a DVR UI. You can't tell me your DVR is that important a thing in your life that it's worth spending hours a day defending it? And you get so emotional about it since everything is personal to you (it isn't since no one on TCF uses their real name!) I had no problem understanding what Charles wrote, regardless if I agree, I too don't understand this fanaticism towards TE3 since TE4's release.


Thanks for sharing your (conspiracy) feelings with the group. Have a nice day.


----------



## jlb

This thread has left the notion of rational conversation behind. Time to finally unsubscribe from this post.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## exdishguy

slice1900 said:


> Why in the world are people shilling for TE4 here? Some people just don't get it, and don't understand that not everyone watches TV the same way they do. Preferring TE3 because of the features it has that TE4 lacks or because it is more stable (since they have pretty much quit making changes to it now as far as I can tell) doesn't make someone wrong, just different.
> 
> I wonder if the people trying to sell us on TE4 are the same people who will tell us why a SUV is the only vehicle you should consider or why we should all eat a gluten free diet? I don't tell you why you should prefer TE3 just because it is the best choice for me, so don't try to tell me I'm wrong for not wanting to have anything to do with TE4. And I'll drive a coupe and eat all the gluten I want, too!


So what you're really trying to tell us is that you are a serial child abuser? 

Good lord. If TCF is intended to be all TE4, all the time, then just rename it TCF4 and tell us TE3 users to go away.

Back to pre-rolls ads. As Mike asked above - has anyone seen them on Roamios? I can't wait for the next earnings call to hear them pitch this disaster and I hope some analyst actually asks a tough question or two vs. softballs.


----------



## Charles R

Mikeguy said:


> Has anyone with a Roamio box received pre-roll ads yet?


I keep trying.  I'm curious if I can block them via Pi-hole and if so how gracefully it's handled. It appears TiVo hasn't learned their lesson and remained rather cryptic versus being upfront which I'm sure many customers would appreciate. If for no other reason than they were being respected (to some degree).


----------



## Am_I_Evil

Charles R said:


> I keep trying.  I'm curious if I can block them via Pi-hole and if so how gracefully it's handled. It appears TiVo hasn't learned their lesson and remained rather cryptic versus being upfront which I'm sure many customers would appreciate. If for no other reason than they were being respected (to some degree).


mine seem to be blocked with pihole and i didn't do anything special to block them..it attempts to load and then skips right into the show...


----------



## andyf

Not to stoke the fire but when I go to play a recording it checks for a pre-roll ad and displays this. I assume its talking about the pre-roll ad but selecting OK takes me back to Now Playing. Sometimes you have to retry multiple times to get the recording to play.

Doesn't happen all the time but enough to be annoying.


----------



## DerekSF

Has anyone noticed even with the pre-roll ads disabled, there is now a multi-second delay where you see the background screen, that did not previously exist?


----------



## slice1900

andyf said:


> Not to stoke the fire but when I go to play a recording it checks for a pre-roll ad and displays this. I assume its talking about the pre-roll ad but selecting OK takes me back to Now Playing. Sometimes you have to retry multiple times to get the recording to play.
> 
> Doesn't happen all the time but enough to be annoying.


That would really piss me off if it happened even once! I've never been able to not 'play' a recording, getting some stupid error message because they broke the functionality would not make me happy. Glad I (apparently/hopefully) will never have to deal with that!


----------



## V7Goose

andyf said:


> Not to stoke the fire but when I go to play a recording it checks for a pre-roll ad and displays this. I assume its talking about the pre-roll ad but selecting OK takes me back to Now Playing. Sometimes you have to retry multiple times to get the recording to play.
> View attachment 43855


You are very lucky if your box is not re-booting after you get that V117 message. When I was getting it, it caused a semi-lockup situation that resulted in a reboot 100% of the time! For me, that error seemed to be a timing issue that happened when I repeatedly tried to hit the skip button during the BSC to prevent the nasty commercial from ever starting.


DerekSF said:


> Has anyone noticed even with the pre-roll ads disabled, there is now a multi-second delay where you see the background screen, that did not previously exist?


No. There was a very significant and irritating delay with the BSC before the hated commercials, but after I had them disabled, my programs seem to launch as quickly as they ever have.


----------



## mschnebly

me: I don't like the color blue
you: Why?
me: It huts my eyes
you: BS, if green doesn't hurt your eye then blue doesn't ether
me: yes it does you one eyed moron
you: I want a poll to show you how dumb you are
me: All it will show is how many one eyed morons there are
you: Or how many of you are a dummy


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

me: That has me seeing red.


----------



## barnabas1969

barnabas1969 said:


> Update:
> 
> Since my most recent post on this topic, way back on page 46, I haven't had time to login here. Life happens.
> 
> So... tonight I had some time to login here and read.
> 
> As I read posts on pages 46 thru 61, I learned that I can call TiVo support to "opt-out" from these commercials.
> 
> I am currently in the middle east, and it is approx 9pm here... but it is only 10am Pacific Time (PDT), so... since the TiVo support site says that they are open 8am-5pm on weekends (PDT), I decided to give them a call.
> 
> After about a 6 minute wait on hold, I was connected to a young man who (obviously) was not an American. To my ear, he sounded like a Filipino, but I was not 100% certain. His English accent was a blend of British-English and Filipino-English.
> 
> I told him that I have been seeing these "forced" commercials before I am allowed to watch my previously-recorded TV shows, and that I had read that if I call TiVo support, cthat they can stop this from happening.
> 
> At first, he did not seem to understand what I was talking about... until I told him that I want to "opt-out" of these commercials. At that point, he immediately understood why I was calling.
> 
> He put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back with the standard line about the fact that it will take "72 hours" until I will see a change.
> 
> I made some small talk with him, and told him that I am away from my home in America... and then I asked him where he is located. He told me that he is in the Philippines.
> 
> So, even though I have only been a TiVo customer for a month or two, he told me that I will no longer see these commercials after "72 hours".
> 
> I will post back here when I am back home.


I'm back home in the USA. I just watched two recordings (recorded Oct 10 and Oct 15). Both had Tulsi Gabbard commercials at the beginning, even though the Tivo representative told me that these commercials would be removed.


----------



## kdmorse

barnabas1969 said:


> I'm back home in the USA. I just watched two recordings (recorded Oct 10 and Oct 15). Both had Tulsi Gabbard commercials at the beginning, even though the Tivo representative told me that these commercials would be removed.


Wait, I must have missed something. Are you saying that the pre-roll adds can be paid political spots?

If so, excuse me, while I re-sharpen my pitch fork...


----------



## ShoutingMan

Fofer said:


> Are you on TE3 or TE4/Hydra?


I don't know. I've got a Roamio. Is this noted somewhere in its settings? I couldn't find any toggle to turn on/off auto updates.


----------



## ShoutingMan

Fofer said:


> Are you on TE3 or TE4/Hydra?


Software Version: 20.7.4.RC42-xxx-x-xxx
Does that mean I'm on v4.2 aka TE4?

I haven't seen any pre-roll ads.


----------



## JoeKustra

ShoutingMan said:


> Software Version: 20.7.4.RC42-xxx-x-xxx
> Does that mean I'm on v4.2 aka TE4?
> 
> I haven't seen any pre-roll ads.


20.anything is TE3. Rest easy.


----------



## Mikeguy

ShoutingMan said:


> Software Version: 20.7.4.RC42-xxx-x-xxx
> Does that mean I'm on v4.2 aka TE4?
> 
> I haven't seen any pre-roll ads.


Nope--you're on TE3, for which there don't seem to be current plans to bring pre-roll ads.  Your box will not update to TE4 of its own accord--you would have to take positive steps to move to TE4.


----------



## ShoutingMan

Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## ggieseke

ShoutingMan said:


> Software Version: 20.7.4.RC42-xxx-x-xxx
> Does that mean I'm on v4.2 aka TE4?
> 
> I haven't seen any pre-roll ads.


That's TE3. TE4 versions start with 21.


----------



## muzzymate

andyf said:


> Not to stoke the fire but when I go to play a recording it checks for a pre-roll ad and displays this. I assume its talking about the pre-roll ad but selecting OK takes me back to Now Playing. Sometimes you have to retry multiple times to get the recording to play.
> 
> Doesn't happen all the time but enough to be annoying.
> 
> View attachment 43855


I'm getting this error occasionally when trying to tune to a different channel, even on the Bolt itself. It's annoying. I hope it goes away. 
I have not seen preroll ads or TiVo+ yet.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Mikeguy said:


> Nope--you're on TE3, for which there don't seem to be current plans to bring pre-roll ads.


Nor the new obnoxious Tivo+ lines in the guide. Stay on TE3, they're turning TE4 into ****e.


----------



## Mikeguy

slowbiscuit said:


> Nor the new obnoxious Tivo+ lines in the guide. Stay on TE3, they're turning TE4 into ****e.


Perhaps I shouldn't say this out loud, but I'd actually_ like to _try TiVo+ out, and I might even like some of the offerings (e.g. news and cooking shows). But just don't shove it in my face, TiVo: simply list it as one of my available apps, don't put it in the Guide taking up valuable space.


----------



## muzzymate

slowbiscuit said:


> Nor the new obnoxious Tivo+ lines in the guide. Stay on TE3, they're turning TE4 into ****e.


I'm heavily considering downgrading to TE3 on my Bolt and Mini Voxs. I've at the point, I've kinda had enough.


----------



## tenthplanet

Mikeguy said:


> Perhaps I shouldn't say this out loud, but I'd actually_ like to _try TiVo+ out, and I might even like some of the offerings (e.g. news and cooking shows). But just don't shove it in my face, TiVo: simply list it as one of my available apps, don't put it in the Guide taking up valuable space.


That's a good, rational suggestion, give us the option to see it in the guide/or not. Don't kill it completely.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

muzzymate said:


> I'm heavily considering downgrading to TE3 on my Bolt and Mini Voxs. I've at the point, I've kinda had enough.


Do it! More stable, less advertising, and as a bonus you get Live Guide and other oldies-but-goodies. And if you ever really want the content offered by Tivo+, apparently it's just a white label Xumo app which you can get on Fire TV and a number of other platforms. (I learned about the Xumo rebranding relationship in another thread here on TCF yesterday. Given that TiVo was once an innovator and leader, I find this very sad.)


----------



## Charles R

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Do it! More stable, less advertising, and as a bonus you get Live Guide and other oldies-but-goodies.


I just downgraded for a few days... found it no more stable, no less advertising and as no bonus found it outdated, clunky and no faster. When the upgrade app finally showed up (after a few days - and a few support calls) I quickly moved on.


----------



## Mikeguy

Charles R said:


> I just downgraded for a few days... found it no more stable, no less advertising and as no bonus found it outdated, clunky and no faster. When the upgrade app finally showed up (after a few days - and a few support calls) I quickly moved on.


No less advertising? None in the Live Guide, and no pre-roll ads. The most I sometimes see is a bottom line listing in TiVo Central.


----------



## Charles R

Mikeguy said:


> No less advertising? None in the Live Guide, and no pre-roll ads.


Yep. Haven't see an ad in the guide nor any pre-roll ads. Yes the old TiVo Central ad brought back memories... never was fond of it. 

Regarding Live Guide I think the downgrade make it the default and it only took a moment to correct that... not a fan (in anyway).


----------



## Wigohwt

ShoutingMan said:


> Thanks for the explanation!


Stay far away from the "Get New Experience" App!


----------



## TostitoBandito

I've got ads in the channel guide now. The bottom row in the guide is always an ad for Tivo+ or some random Tivo+ channel. I've been opted out of pre-roll ads, but I'm still seeing these. Less annoying I guess, but still dumb. Tivo+ is full of worthless content nobody cares about, and I don't care to be spammed about it. I can use channel list to control which channels I see in the guide so I don't appreciate Tivo cramming other crap I don't need in there.


----------



## lhvetinari

I am loathe to comment here and re-subscribe myself to the updates, but I wonder if I have a related issue: on all of my units (a Bolt, a Bolt Vox, two A93 minis) when starting to play back a recording they display the right-arrows background image for .5-2 seconds before starting the playback. No ads, no BSC, just the background image. 
Is this related to the ads? Will calling an opting out fix it? Or is it just the box running a bit slow?
I’m not entirely sold on TE4 but the family loves the voice search, and we all know what comes of upsetting the apple cart. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## lhvetinari

lhvetinari said:


> I am loathe to comment here and re-subscribe myself to the updates, but I wonder if I have a related issue: on all of my units (a Bolt, a Bolt Vox, two A93 minis) when starting to play back a recording they display the right-arrows background image for .5-2 seconds before starting the playback. No ads, no BSC, just the background image.
> Is this related to the ads? Will calling an opting out fix it? Or is it just the box running a bit slow?
> I'm not entirely sold on TE4 but the family loves the voice search, and we all know what comes of upsetting the apple cart.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Update: posting this doomed me, I get ads now. I'll have to call in tomorrow morning.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## southerndoc

I'm not getting any (yet). Sure they'll start soon.

Is it like a 30 second commercial at the beginning of a show? If so -- and as long as there aren't any commercials within the show -- I'm ok with it. I don't mind watching one commercial before a show. I'm all for TiVo being profitable so they stick around for a while.


----------



## shwru980r

This process of Tivo enabling pre roll ads and then the customer calling in to opt out is like setting up a printer and sending the output directly to a shredder.


----------



## TKnight206

TiVo_Ted said:


> At this point, TiVo have no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3. I'm sorry my earlier statement was not clear on this.


Okay, so there are no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3, I understand. However, I hear there are ads in Hydra's guide. Namely, for TiVo+ right now.

Is the TE3 guide going to be modified to show ads like the TE4 guide? I would find that so irritating. I just want confirmation as to whether or not guide ads are coming to TE3.


----------



## exdishguy

TKnight206 said:


> Okay, so there are no plans to implement pre-roll ads on TE3, I understand. However, I hear there are ads in Hydra's guide. Namely, for TiVo+ right now.
> 
> Is the TE3 guide going to be modified to show ads like the TE4 guide? I would find that so irritating. I just want confirmation as to whether or not guide ads are coming to TE3.


No plans to introduce ads in any way to TE3 since the platform is frozen in "maintenance mode."


----------



## exdishguy

lhvetinari said:


> I am loathe to comment here and re-subscribe myself to the updates, but I wonder if I have a related issue: on all of my units (a Bolt, a Bolt Vox, two A93 minis) when starting to play back a recording they display the right-arrows background image for .5-2 seconds before starting the playback. No ads, no BSC, just the background image.
> Is this related to the ads? Will calling an opting out fix it? Or is it just the box running a bit slow?
> I'm not entirely sold on TE4 but the family loves the voice search, and we all know what comes of upsetting the apple cart.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yea, the right-arrow background is the tell-tale sign that pre-rolls are coming to a Tivo box near you.  Once you opt out, that should go away along with the pre-roll ads. The guide ads and Tivo+ nonsense is another story.


----------



## Amnesia

exdishguy said:


> No plans to introduce ads in any way to TE3 since the platform is frozen in "maintenance mode."


Well, there are no announced plans. We don't really know if there are unannounced plans...


----------



## Rapt0r

Rapt0r said:


> An update. Since my original post on this issue I've not received any subsequent ads, though I am now receiving a brief nonspecific graphic prior to my recorded content. I did request that they remove the pre-roll ads, which was agreed to and taking effect within 72 hours. My assumption regarding the brief graphic is that it's a placeholder for future ads, which I suspect is unfortunately inevitable.


A further update. I've not received any additional pre-roll ads, and I don't believe I've received any more 'placeholder' graphics. Perhaps they've backed off on this, for the moment.

However I now notice what I consider to be ads every few lines in the guide. Frankly, just as annoying to me. If they are doing this stuff thinking that we want it, that it enhances are viewing pleasure they're wrong. I've spent a lot of money on their equipment as well as their extremely overpriced subscription but I'm ready to move on. Having a unified guide has been the only thing keeping me from cutting the cord. But the direction TiVo is going looking for ways to insert ads everywhere has me at the end of my patience with them. What's next, persistent PiP ads?


----------



## schatham

exdishguy said:


> No plans to introduce ads in any way to TE3 since the platform is frozen in "maintenance mode."


Bolt Vox TE3: Last night changing the channel on live TV their was a very brief ad, a ping noise then live TV show was playing. It was odd enough that I backed up to see what that was and their was no ad. I tried this 3 times, no ad showing, just the start of the show.

So maybe they are doing something to bring ads to TE3.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I think they are doing something to TE3 Encore. My 3TB 6-tuner Bolt Vox had all kinds of strange blue circles and connecting to Tivo errors that I've never had before.


----------



## exdishguy

schatham said:


> Bolt Vox TE3: Last night changing the channel on live TV their was a very brief ad, a ping noise then live TV show was playing. It was odd enough that I backed up to see what that was and their was no ad. I tried this 3 times, no ad showing, just the start of the show.
> 
> So maybe they are doing something to bring ads to TE3.


Good lord. I hope you're wrong (no offense). What TE3 version of firmware does your Bolt show?


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> I can't do that. The last time I tried, I got to the second commercial break and couldn't stand it. And ended up purchasing the rest of the season. So now I do it with all the shows on the CW. Since I really hate commercials


ok. seems a bit persnickety to me but if you don't care about money I guess that's your prerogative.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> ok. seems a bit persnickety to me but if you don't care about money I guess that's your prerogative.


If you care about money, then getting shows from cable would not be a priority. Since they will typically cost more.

But sure, I care about money. I pay less now, paying for these shows separately, paying for Philo, and paying for Hulu commercial free. Than I did when I was on the FIOS Ultimate HD tier.
I was paying around $155 a month for Ultimate HD, gigabit internet, and digital phone service.

I dropped down to Custom Tv, Gigabit internet, and digital phone service. And now I pay around $90 each month to FiOS. That $65 a month savings way more than covers what I pay for individual shows, Philo, and Hulu ad-free each month. Only now the video quality is much better than what FiOS or Comcast has. Or OTA in the DC area has.

The individual shows only cost between 75 cents and $2 an episode for the highest quality version, HD. When I buy the entire new season at once. Which is typically pre-ordered, prior to the new season being aired on broadcast.

The most I've ever paid per episode was $2. And that was for the most recent season of The Magicians.(I also buy the SyFy shows outright, in addition to the CW shows)

But I also didn't switch to save money. I switched to get better video quality, and still be able to avoid commercials. Since FiOS video quality has been crap for several years now. Although not as bad as Comcast yet.

But saving money was just icing on the cake.


----------



## TKnight206

aaronwt said:


> I can't do that. The last time I tried, I got to the second commercial break and couldn't stand it. And ended up purchasing the rest of the season. So now I do it with all the shows on the CW. Since I really hate commercials.
> 
> And it still isn't very expensive. I end up paying between 75 cents and $2 per HD episode when I buy the entire season. The most I've paid was $2 an episode. And that was for the Magicians, which is on SyFy. All the CW shows have cost me $1.50 or less per HD episode.


Would it be cheaper to watch the CW shows on Netflix a year later?

The CW is ending its Netflix deal, but that doesn't mean Riverdale is disappearing might be worth a read first.


----------



## aristoBrat

b_scott said:


> ok. seems a bit persnickety to me but if you don't care about money I guess that's your prerogative.


IMO, people hate ads. This thread alone has about 1,500 replies from folks who hate the idea of short pre-roll ads that can be skipped with the press of a button (or removed with a call/email to customer service).

The idea that someone would buy an episode because it's the only way to skip multiple 90+ second ads doesn't seem persnickety to me, IMO. Some have limited time to watch shows, and time itself can be more valuable commodity than the cost of bypassing ads.


----------



## aaronwt

TKnight206 said:


> Would it be cheaper to watch the CW shows on Netflix a year later?
> 
> The CW is ending its Netflix deal, but that doesn't mean Riverdale is disappearing might be worth a read first.


Yes it would be cheaper. But I don't like waiting nine months to watch these broadcast shows. Especially when they are usually over twenty episodes each season.


----------



## b_scott

aristoBrat said:


> IMO, people hate ads. This thread alone has about 1,500 replies from folks who hate the idea of short pre-roll ads that can be skipped with the press of a button (or removed with a call/email to customer service).
> 
> The idea that someone would buy an episode because it's the only way to skip multiple 90+ second ads doesn't seem persnickety to me, IMO. Some have limited time to watch shows, and time itself can be more valuable commodity than the cost of bypassing ads.


Sure, and if it were all shows then I would understand. For one show, once a week, not worth the extra money. Personal choice I guess.


----------



## TKnight206

What would be the downsides to digital purchases?

If purchasing, you're paying a lot for something you may only watch once. Renting would be a nice option, provided it's a practical price.

If purchasing, you're also subject to losing your digital purchase. (E.g., The Simpsons season 3, episode 1, or Roseanne season 10)
Renting would alleviate the bitterness of having paid for something to only have it taken away, even if offered a refund.


----------



## aaronwt

TKnight206 said:


> What would be the downsides to digital purchases?
> 
> If purchasing, you're paying a lot for something you may only watch once. Renting would be a nice option, provided it's a practical price.
> 
> If purchasing, you're also subject to losing your digital purchase. (E.g., The Simpsons season 3, episode 1, or Roseanne season 10)
> Renting would alleviate the bitterness of having paid for something to only have it taken away, even if offered a refund.


Have they started taking away any digital purchases yet? The last time I checked, I still had access to all the digital purchases I made on Xbox, back around 2006 or 2007 or so. And I still have all my Vudu digital purchases I made since 2007.


----------



## TKnight206

aaronwt said:


> Have they started taking away any digital purchases yet? The last time I checked, I still had access to all the digital purchases I made on Xbox, back around 2006 or 2007 or so. And I still have all my Vudu digital purchases I made since 2007.


From the CW? Not to my knowledge.


----------



## mbernste

NashGuy said:


> frankly, everyone expects to have an Exit button


Why would you need an exit button on a TiVo? Just press the TiVo button to get out of an app. It seems pretty intuitive and no one had to tell me to use it, it just made sense when I picked up the remote for the first time.


----------



## NashGuy

mbernste said:


> Why would you need an exit button on a TiVo? Just press the TiVo button to get out of an app. It seems pretty intuitive and no one had to tell me to use it, it just made sense when I picked up the remote for the first time.


Pressing the TiVo button won't get you out of TiVo Central (or whatever they call the main TiVo home screen UI) -- in fact, that button takes you there!

Every other DVR has a button, usually named Exit, that takes you out of whatever on-screen menu system or app that you're in, back out to whatever was playing before you entered that menu system or app -- either live TV or a DVR recording. There's no equivalent button on a TiVo.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Pressing the TiVo button won't get you out of TiVo Central (or whatever they call the main TiVo home screen UI) -- in fact, that button takes you there!
> 
> Every other DVR has a button, usually named Exit, that takes you out of whatever on-screen menu system or app that you're in, back out to whatever was playing before you entered that menu system or app -- either live TV or a DVR recording. There's no equivalent button on a TiVo.


Left will take you out of whatever you're in. I'm still not sure why TiVo would need an "Exit" button, as it has a "Live TV" button, and the TiVo button.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Left will take you out of whatever you're in. I'm still not sure why TiVo would need an "Exit" button, as it has a "Live TV" button, and the TiVo button.


If you're watching live TV, but you're behind the timeline due to pausing/trick play, or if you're watching a recording -- and then you go into the TiVo menu system -- you don't want to press the Live TV button, because that will dump you out some place you don't want to be.

And, no, at least when I had a TiVo, pressing the left D-button did not take me back out of TiVo Central into what I had been watching in the scenarios above. The only way to do that was by pressing the "Zoom" button. Completely unintuitive.

Look, you know you're on the wrong side of a UI/UX debate when *literally* no other system has implemented the conventions that you're arguing for. If TiVo's approach made sense, it would have been copied by other DVRs, *especially* given the fact that TiVo was the original DVR system. Heck, even the Mac eventually gave up on insisting on a one-button mouse after Windows had been around for a decade...


----------



## mbernste

NashGuy said:


> Look, you know you're on the wrong side of a UI/UX debate when *literally* no other system has implemented the conventions that you're arguing for.


I think you're on the wrong side of the debate when no one here seems to agree with you. The TiVo button exits out of whatever you are in and brings you to TiVo Central as you said, that's the main screen of the TiVo. You may be under the misconception that "live TV" is or should be the main screen/view, but that would be incorrect.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Look, you know you're on the wrong side of a UI/UX debate when *literally* no other system has implemented the conventions that you're arguing for. If TiVo's approach made sense, it would have been copied by other DVRs, *especially* given the fact that TiVo was the original DVR system. Heck, even the Mac eventually gave up on insisting on a one-button mouse after Windows had been around for a decade...


I disagree.The point you are missing here is that TiVo is a DVR first, a cable box second, and everything else (streaming, VOD) third. Everything is DVR-centric. Older Motorola and Scientific Atlanta DVRs were cable boxes first and DVRs second, since they were leased out by MSOs. Comcast's X1 tries to equally be everything, cable box, DVR, VOD, streaming, etc. Therefore, it makes sense for TiVo, and for any true DVR-centric device, to have a DVR-centric interface, hence TiVo Central as the centerpiece of the box, with Live TV as a secondary part of the UX.


----------



## Rapt0r

Rapt0r said:


> A further update. I've not received any additional pre-roll ads, and I don't believe I've received any more 'placeholder' graphics. Perhaps they've backed off on this, for the moment.
> 
> However I now notice what I consider to be ads every few lines in the guide. Frankly, just as annoying to me. If they are doing this stuff thinking that we want it, that it enhances are viewing pleasure they're wrong. I've spent a lot of money on their equipment as well as their extremely overpriced subscription but I'm ready to move on. Having a unified guide has been the only thing keeping me from cutting the cord. But the direction TiVo is going looking for ways to insert ads everywhere has me at the end of my patience with them. What's next, persistent PiP ads?


Latest update:
So what I was previously trying to describe I've learned is 'TiVo+'. Since it showed up I've been noticing a strange bug with my Guide (TE4). Paging up several times looking to see what's on/coming up, then paging back down after a couple of pages or so my Guide jumps back to the page showing my current channel. If I happen to want to see what's on my Guide this way it won't work anymore. Anyone else having these problems?

Meanwhile, I'm looking at a couple of streaming services to supplement my existing two big name Streamers, plus adding some premium channels. This will alleviate me of these problems plus an ever increasing cable bill, which has more than doubled over the past year plus, and they removed channels too. Original promotion price for TV & Internet about 2 years ago started at $85, increased to $140 after the year was up, subsequently increased to $185 (and lost some channels), edged up earlier this year to $200, and just got a new bill for $210. Note, I use a CableCard and provide my own modem. Enough is enough!


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I disagree.The point you are missing here is that TiVo is a DVR first, a cable box second, and everything else (streaming, VOD) third. Everything is DVR-centric. Older Motorola and Scientific Atlanta DVRs were cable boxes first and DVRs second, since they were leased out by MSOs. Comcast's X1 tries to equally be everything, cable box, DVR, VOD, streaming, etc. Therefore, it makes sense for TiVo, and for any true DVR-centric device, to have a DVR-centric interface, hence TiVo Central as the centerpiece of the box, with Live TV as a secondary part of the UX.


Nice dodge but you failed to address the specific scenarios I brought up. And while you can choose to think of TiVo Central as "the centerpiece of the box," no one uses a TiVo or any other DVR so that they can while away the hours hanging out in the menu system. The actual content they want to watch -- live and recorded TV -- is the reason a DVR exists and that's the main place that users spend their time.


----------



## pfiagra

NashGuy said:


> Nice dodge but you failed to address the specific scenarios I brought up. And while you can choose to think of TiVo Central as "the centerpiece of the box," no one uses a TiVo or any other DVR so that they can while away the hours hanging out in the menu system. The actual content they want to watch -- live and recorded TV -- is the reason a DVR exists and that's the main place that users spend their time.


Ahhhhhh! Children, avert your eyes! Its a menu! A MENU!


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Nice dodge but you failed to address the specific scenarios I brought up. And while you can choose to think of TiVo Central as "the centerpiece of the box," no one uses a TiVo or any other DVR so that they can while away the hours hanging out in the menu system. The actual content they want to watch -- live and recorded TV -- is the reason a DVR exists and that's the main place that users spend their time.


That's not a dodge at all. It's about what TiVo fundamentally IS. TiVo fundamentally IS a DVR, hence it makes perfect sense to have the TiVo button bring you back to TiVo Central. It can pause Live TV, but that's not what it's meant to do. It's meant to have recordings scheduled in advance, and then play them back. If you're planning on watching a live event, you schedule it to record as well, both for the menu functionality, as well as having a full game/event length buffer as well as blocking a tuner out in a busy tuner environment (at least back in the day when tuners were busy). TiVo Central is the launch point for recordings and scheduling recordings, and therefore it's the logical center point of the TiVo Experience.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> That's not a dodge at all. It's about what TiVo fundamentally IS. TiVo fundamentally IS a DVR, hence it makes perfect sense to have the TiVo button bring you back to TiVo Central. It can pause Live TV, but that's not what it's meant to do. It's meant to have recordings scheduled in advance, and then play them back. If you're planning on watching a live event, you schedule it to record as well, both for the menu functionality, as well as having a full game/event length buffer as well as blocking a tuner out in a busy tuner environment (at least back in the day when tuners were busy). TiVo Central is the launch point for recordings and scheduling recordings, and therefore it's the logical center point of the TiVo Experience.


I'm just saying that there should be a consistent way to exit out of menus and apps and back to whatever TV you were watching before you went into TiVo Central. Because many times viewers will go into it, or some subset of it, like the channel grid guide, after starting to watch something else. Which is why virtually every other DVR on the planet has an Exit button (and/or a Back button that takes you back one step at a time).

TiVo eventually agreed with me, BTW. That's why their peanut remote for their Android TV-powered IPTV boxes features an Exit button but no Zoom button. See here on their product page or here for a closer view.


----------



## John7777

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Well, I finally got the ads yesterday. I checked the fast forward and it brought me to my show right away with no trouble. Not a big deal,but certainly not what I would choose, but I figure I could live with it. Later, I went to check my signal strength, and when I went to the next channel, the TiVo bolt shut down and restarted. I tried again a couple of times with the same results. I had read that maybe I could opt out of the pre rolled ads if there was some trouble it was causing and I figured this was too much of a coincidence to think it was anything else, so I called. Sadly, the TiVo dude said they could not remove the ads. He had me jump through a few hoops (change from a power strip to a wall outlet, restart the TIVO) and when these didn't work, he said they could replace the box. I thought that was a little drastic and I didn't want to go through the hassle and take a chance by switching when I was pretty sure there must be a better way. I hope to find some answers here after doing a search for this problem, and hope that it isn't related to the pre-rolled ads that can't be removed.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

John7777 said:


> Sadly, the TiVo dude said they could not remove the ads.


Uh-oh. Did he say why? How long have you had the Bolt? How long have you been a TiVo customer? It's worth trying again to opt out. Maybe it was just that rep. Don't even mention the technical problem. Even if the two issues are connected, Tier 1 support will never understand so I say don't mention it, just try try and try again until they let you opt out! Or "sidegrade" to TE3; that's where we live here.


----------



## osu1991

Drastic, but a roll back to TE3 will fix it.

I got the ads last night, I emailed TiVo support twice this morning and kept getting the run around of how great this was and it was free, blah, blah, blah. 

I finally called in and am sure I was getting a little loud, as I was losing my temper after telling them for the third time during the call, I wanted to Opt Out of the ads on all 5 of my dvrs. They finally said ok, they could process the opt out and it would take 48-72hrs.


----------



## foghorn2

Still no ads here, but I seeing pending restart and waiting for The Five to finish recording and Bret Baier to start so I can reboot


----------



## schatham

John7777 said:


> Well, I finally got the ads yesterday. I checked the fast forward and it brought me to my show right away with no trouble. Not a big deal,but certainly not what I would choose, but I figure I could live with it. Later, I went to check my signal strength, and when I went to the next channel, the TiVo bolt shut down and restarted. I tried again a couple of times with the same results. I had read that maybe I could opt out of the pre rolled ads if there was some trouble it was causing and I figured this was too much of a coincidence to think it was anything else, so I called. Sadly, the TiVo dude said they could not remove the ads. He had me jump through a few hoops (change from a power strip to a wall outlet, restart the TIVO) and when these didn't work, he said they could replace the box. I thought that was a little drastic and I didn't want to go through the hassle and take a chance by switching when I was pretty sure there must be a better way. I hope to find some answers here after doing a search for this problem, and hope that it isn't related to the pre-rolled ads that can't be removed.


Others have posted about the restart problem after getting the ads. It's related.


----------



## Mikeguy

John7777 said:


> Well, I finally got the ads yesterday. I checked the fast forward and it brought me to my show right away with no trouble. Not a big deal,but certainly not what I would choose, but I figure I could live with it. Later, I went to check my signal strength, and when I went to the next channel, the TiVo bolt shut down and restarted. I tried again a couple of times with the same results. I had read that maybe I could opt out of the pre rolled ads if there was some trouble it was causing and I figured this was too much of a coincidence to think it was anything else, so I called. Sadly, the TiVo dude said they could not remove the ads. He had me jump through a few hoops (change from a power strip to a wall outlet, restart the TIVO) and when these didn't work, he said they could replace the box. I thought that was a little drastic and I didn't want to go through the hassle and take a chance by switching when I was pretty sure there must be a better way. I hope to find some answers here after doing a search for this problem, and hope that it isn't related to the pre-rolled ads that can't be removed.


Time to call again, or a few times (I'd space them a day apart, so that I could legitimately state that I gave the system a chance) and play that game we all love so well, CSR roulette.


----------



## snerd

Bigg said:


> It can pause Live TV, but that's not what it's meant to do.


Seriously? Any and every feature that was meticulously designed into the system is *by definition* what it was "meant" to do. Claiming otherwise is just silly.


----------



## lhvetinari

osu1991 said:


> Drastic, but a roll back to TE3 will fix it.
> 
> I got the ads last night, I emailed TiVo support twice this morning and kept getting the run around of how great this was and it was free, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I finally called in and am sure I was getting a little loud, as I was losing my temper after telling them for the third time during the call, I wanted to Opt Out of the ads on all 5 of my dvrs. They finally said ok, they could process the opt out and it would take 48-72hrs.


As drastic as it is, I'm rolling back tonight. Opted out of pre-rolls (and it seemed to work), but I got the 21.something.6 update today with the T+ ads injected into the guide. This, combined with weird performance issues (slow scrolling of the guide, inability to use clear to delete more than 3 things in a go without causing a UI crash) has me going back.


----------



## TiVotion

I was one of those people who resisted TE4 because I personally liked the old UI and didn’t like the sterility and navigation of TE4. I finally gave in and went to TE4, which I had for a long time, but with the discussions about the pre roll ads and Plus being inserted in the guide, I went back to TE3 on my Roamio and 4 Minis. Gave up my recordings in the process but whatever. That said, I’m certain it’s only a matter of time before everyone is forced to go to TE4 for one reason or another. The cynical side of me thinks the lure of automatic commercial skip only on 4 was designed to get the most people possible off of 3 and onto 4. But it’s not worth it to me. When TE3 is no longer an option or when/if these annoying “features” hit 3, I guess I’ll just go back to the cable co DVR.


----------



## ElJay

osu1991 said:


> I got the ads last night, I emailed TiVo support twice this morning and kept getting the run around of how great this was and it was free, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I finally called in and am sure I was getting a little loud, as I was losing my temper after telling them for the third time during the call, I wanted to Opt Out of the ads on all 5 of my dvrs. They finally said ok, they could process the opt out and it would take 48-72hrs.


I've also done the email thing twice and gotten the same response. I gave a very explicit explanation of where I wanted to have the ads removed, and twice a totally useless response of, "I think you're talking about Tivo+ and there's nothing we can do." The customer service email reps can't read the English language apparently. When my subscription renewal comes up next year, a cable company DVR may be in my future. I just don't like how TiVo has done this at all.


----------



## John7777

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Uh-oh. Did he say why? How long have you had the Bolt? How long have you been a TiVo customer? It's worth trying again to opt out. Maybe it was just that rep. Don't even mention the technical problem. Even if the two issues are connected, Tier 1 support will never understand so I say don't mention it, just try try and try again until they let you opt out! Or "sidegrade" to TE3; that's where we live here.


We got the bolt 3 or 4 months ago. Been a TIVO customer for close to five years now I think. There was a bit of a communication problem with the guy and when he asked when I installed the pre-rolled ads, I told him, I didn't install them, you guys did. He threw me for a loop when he seemed so quick to want to replace the bolt with another one. The signal strength check can always be done with my other TiVo, so I didn't think it would be worth all the trouble. I may just try again and see if I do better with another rep., but the funny thing is after I talked to this guy (who said the ads couldn't be taken out) the ads have dropped down considerably. Out of the 10 shows we recorded in the last couple of days, only two of them started with an ad. Could just be a coincidence but when it kicked in the first day, every show had an ad. (the same one-a keurig)


----------



## schatham

John7777 said:


> We got the bolt 3 or 4 months ago. Been a TIVO customer for close to five years now I think. There was a bit of a communication problem with the guy and when he asked when I installed the pre-rolled ads, I told him, I didn't install them, you guys did. He threw me for a loop when he seemed so quick to want to replace the bolt with another one. The signal strength check can always be done with my other TiVo, so I didn't think it would be worth all the trouble. I may just try again and see if I do better with another rep., but the funny thing is after I talked to this guy (who said the ads couldn't be taken out) the ads have dropped down considerably. Out of the 10 shows we recorded in the last couple of days, only two of them started with an ad. Could just be a coincidence but when it kicked in the first day, every show had an ad. (the same one-a keurig)


More likely they have an ad limit with their advertiser.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

John7777 said:


> We got the bolt 3 or 4 months ago. Been a TIVO customer for close to five years now I think. There was a bit of a communication problem with the guy and when he asked when I installed the pre-rolled ads, I told him, I didn't install them, you guys did. He threw me for a loop when he seemed so quick to want to replace the bolt with another one. The signal strength check can always be done with my other TiVo, so I didn't think it would be worth all the trouble. I may just try again and see if I do better with another rep., but the funny thing is after I talked to this guy (who said the ads couldn't be taken out) the ads have dropped down considerably. Out of the 10 shows we recorded in the last couple of days, only two of them started with an ad. Could just be a coincidence but when it kicked in the first day, every show had an ad. (the same one-a keurig)


Time for CSR Roulette! Good luck with the next one. More and more of them should know what you're talking about at this point. As for ad frequency, that may be a weekly or monthly thing and will increase again at some point.


----------



## TKnight206

TiVotion said:


> I was one of those people who resisted TE4 because I personally liked the old UI and didn't like the sterility and navigation of TE4. I finally gave in and went to TE4, which I had for a long time, but with the discussions about the pre roll ads and Plus being inserted in the guide, I went back to TE3 on my Roamio and 4 Minis. Gave up my recordings in the process but whatever. That said, I'm certain it's only a matter of time before everyone is forced to go to TE4 for one reason or another. The cynical side of me thinks the lure of automatic commercial skip only on 4 was designed to get the most people possible off of 3 and onto 4. But it's not worth it to me. When TE3 is no longer an option or when/if these annoying "features" hit 3, I guess I'll just go back to the cable co DVR.





TiVo_Ted said:


> We still have no plans to require customers to upgrade to TE4. However, I can tell you that more than 50% of our eligible installed base are now running TE4, with fewer than 1,000 downgrades. And before you say it, yes I understand that downgrading is very painful so these 2 stats don't exactly compare. However, we continue to monitor feedback on TE4 and have plans to continually address user concerns. Updates to the mini guide, My Shows, etc. are all examples of this.


It's been almost a year since @TiVo_Ted said that. I still hope that's the case. Just him confirming that would alleviate some of our fears, for those of us who use TE3.

While the option of AutoSkip would be nice, I'm fine with pressing a button. Although, I'd be happy if SkipMode was a bit more accurate. It's annoying how a little bit of the show gets cut off, or the last segment doesn't get marked.



ElJay said:


> I've also done the email thing twice and gotten the same response. I gave a very explicit explanation of where I wanted to have the ads removed, and twice a totally useless response of, "I think you're talking about Tivo+ and there's nothing we can do." The customer service email reps can't read the English language apparently. When my subscription renewal comes up next year, a cable company DVR may be in my future. I just don't like how TiVo has done this at all.


Have you tried calling and escalating to a supervisor?


----------



## parzec

I received my first inserted ad two days ago on my Roamio. This seems to defeat one of the primary reasons for purchasing Tivo (ad skipping) in the first place. Having been a Tivo user since the Philips Series 1 was introduced, this is a level to which I never imagined they would stoop, especially for paid subscriptions. Glad I never "upgraded" my trusty Lifetime Tivo HDs to the latest models.


----------



## SVO

Well, a 22-year Tivo customer here. I will be out as of 12/1. My Bolt is getting glitchy and the apps are wonky. It only works inverted with a laptop cooling fan underneath- Great ventilation design that! 

Where I live cable is the only reasonable broadband service so the incremental cost is cheaper with a Comcast X1. Only have 60 hours of recording which isn't really enough but what ya gonna do. Stacking up the cost of a new Tivo box, the new ads B.S., risk that Tivo just goes under in the next couple of years = time to walk. My wife will sorely miss the interface. 

Good luck folks!


----------



## aristoBrat

parzec said:


> Having been a Tivo user since the Philips Series 1 was introduced, this is a level to which I never imagined they would stoop


It's almost like the company doing the stooping today isn't the same company from back in the Series 1 day or something... ::dunno::


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

SVO said:


> Well, a 22-year Tivo customer here. I will be out as of 12/1. My Bolt is getting glitchy and the apps are wonky. It only works inverted with a laptop cooling fan underneath- Great ventilation design that!
> 
> Where I live cable is the only reasonable broadband service so the incremental cost is cheaper with a Comcast X1. Only have 60 hours of recording which isn't really enough but what ya gonna do. Stacking up the cost of a new Tivo box, the new ads B.S., risk that Tivo just goes under in the next couple of years = time to walk. My wife will sorely miss the interface.
> 
> Good luck folks!


Warning Warning Warning: WAF issues ahead. 

How about getting a Roamio off eBay, opting out of the TE4 pre-rolls or keeping it on TE3, and adding something better than any TiVo for streaming like a Fire TV Stick 4K?

IMHO the Roamio series was the last great TiVo ever made.


----------



## Noelmel

parzec said:


> I received my first inserted ad two days ago on my Roamio. This seems to defeat one of the primary reasons for purchasing Tivo (ad skipping) in the first place. Having been a Tivo user since the Philips Series 1 was introduced, this is a level to which I never imagined they would stoop, especially for paid subscriptions. Glad I never "upgraded" my trusty Lifetime Tivo HDs to the latest models.


I've read this whole thread and I believe you're the first person to get the ads on a Roamio (unless I missed something somewhere). I also have Roamio and thought we weren't getting them. Maybe I'm getting confused with the TiVo plus (I know that was series 6 and up)

What software version are you on? I got v5 last night but haven't had any ads yet

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## parzec

I am currently on version 5. Not sure exactly when it upgraded. And I should clarify that I was actually watching a show recorded on my Roamio via my Tivo Mini Vox. So, it is possible that the insert ad was specific to the Mini Vox and not necessarily the Roamio.


----------



## ufo4sale

I’m the biggest TiVo supporter in the world and I have not gotten adds or TiVo Plus channels. I must be doing something wrong or incredibly right.

What’s a TiVo guy suppose to do. The thousands of dollars I’ve spent on TiVo’s over the decades and this is how they treat me. I just don’t get it. Im full of emotions that I can not express.


----------



## no-mo

I've had Tivo since the beginning after my ReplayTV quit working. I've had most of the models and would upgrade as new boxes arrived. I used the models with a cable card slot once that became an option and deployed the mini to other tv's. 

Over the years TiVo has done little to innovate (wasted opportunity) but over the past few years it seemed like somehow they got their collective butts in gear. At the same time, I quit subscribing to cable tv and my Bolt now uses my antenna. 

But now, they appear to have gone all in on stupid. The ability to auto-skip commercials is great; what idiot thought, "well now we'll INSERT commercials that no one will want". Like I said; from lazy to stupid.

My annual subscription is up in January and I'm not going to renew. I'm selling my Tivo boxes and mini's. There are other great options out there that have commercial skip as well. I'm not calling to opt out because I can't opt out of the other crazy crap they may though my way in the future. Best option is to dump and move on.

This situation reminds me of my Keurig experience. Had their coffee makers for years. I would upgrade as new versions arrived but then some idiot decided to DRM coffee pods. LOL Dumped them and moved on too. Don't hold onto what doesn't work for you. Don't be afraid to walk away. When companies go stupid, dump them.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

no-mo said:


> There are other great options out there that have commercial skip as well.


@no-mo you probably already know this, but options include Tablo, HD HomeRun with Channels DVR, HD HomeRun with Plex, and others, plus for streaming there are many little boxes, sticks and such. Join us here for more info: *TiVo Alternatives? *


----------



## dianebrat

no-mo said:


> This situation reminds me of my Keurig experience. Had their coffee makers for years. I would upgrade as new versions arrived but then some idiot decided to DRM coffee pods. LOL Dumped them and moved on too.


and that was incredibly easy to bypass, snip one wire and DRM was gone.


----------



## no-mo

Pokemon_Dad said:


> @no-mo you probably already know this, but options include Tablo, HD HomeRun with Channels DVR, HD HomeRun with Plex, and others, plus for streaming there are many little boxes, sticks and such. Join us here for more info: *TiVo Alternatives? *


I have been testing Emby with HD Homerun tuners and comskip/MCEBuddy for a few months. I ordered the Tablo a few days ago. I will start testing it once it arrives. I'll see you on the alternatives link.


----------



## no-mo

dianebrat said:


> and that was incredibly easy to bypass, snip one wire and DRM was gone.


There were many hacks to render the DRM useless on the pods, but that's not my point. I vote with my dollars and feet. ;-)


----------



## TKnight206

SVO said:


> Well, a 22-year Tivo customer here. I will be out as of 12/1. My Bolt is getting glitchy and the apps are wonky. It only works inverted with a laptop cooling fan underneath- Great ventilation design that!
> 
> Where I live cable is the only reasonable broadband service so the incremental cost is cheaper with a Comcast X1. Only have 60 hours of recording which isn't really enough but what ya gonna do. Stacking up the cost of a new Tivo box, the new ads B.S., risk that Tivo just goes under in the next couple of years = time to walk. My wife will sorely miss the interface.
> 
> Good luck folks!


I'm on TE3. I have no intention to touch TE4. I have a Roamio.

Call the Comcast Loyalty Dept. and see if you can get the X1 for free. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Apps aside, how is the Bolt getting glitchy? We're not talking about spinning blue circles when using the menu, are we? (I use a Roku if I need streaming.)

I can't see any justification for the pre-roll ads when it comes to recorded shows.

As for TiVo+ in the guide, it takes up space (one channel) and the pestering (can't be removed despite letting us know it exists) isn't helping TiVo's image. As annoying as it can be with ads in the Discovery Bar, it's the most appropriate place. Just put it there! (For those on TE4, of course.)



no-mo said:


> But now, they appear to have gone all in on stupid. The ability to auto-skip commercials is great; what idiot thought, "well now we'll INSERT commercials that no one will want". Like I said; from lazy to stupid.


Yes, this, especially the first sentence you used.



no-mo said:


> There were many hacks to render the DRM useless on the pods, but that's not my point. I vote with my dollars and feet. ;-)


Some of us invested in lifetime. I can't necessarily vote with my wallet when it comes to TiVo. I'm just thankful that TE3 is untouched regarding this madness.

If TiVo is desperate for money, wouldn't it make more sense to charge for new features (software version updates) rather than shoving ads down our throats?



ufo4sale said:


> What's a TiVo guy suppose to do. The thousands of dollars I've spent on TiVo's over the decades and this is how they treat me. I just don't get it. Im full of emotions that I can not express.


TiVo Inc. and
TiVo Corporation are different if that makes you feel better.


----------



## jcarlin

The pre-roll ads started showing up on my Bolt a few days ago. The experience is pretty bad and looks like an engineering hack. Every recording I play for the first time throws up the gray arrows screen, like when you launch an app. Then a poor quality irrelevant commercial plays. Other than the unexpected screen change they are fairly easy to dismiss. I pressed select to start the recording and the right arrow quickly dismisses the add. Annoying. 

Mostly I feel betrayed by a friend I have known for 21 years. I think we all kind of feel this way. TiVo liberated us from network programming and irrelevant commercials and now here they are trying to put that back into our lives. I never bought a lifetime for any of my boxes. Always thought the next tech was just around the corner so I played (or PAID) it safe. So feeling pretty justified after throwing so much money their way I called to opt-out. 

Opting-out wasn't hard to do, but left an unexpected scar. The agent I connected with didn't understand my problem until I used the keyword "Pre-Roll". After that he understood and told me they would be gone in a few days. Today the ads are gone, but the annoying gray arrow screen still pops up before each new recording plays. This is still an annoying and disrupting reminder how my longtime friend betrayed me, but I suppose I will eventually get over it.


----------



## Mikeguy

jcarlin said:


> Opting-out wasn't hard to do, but left an unexpected scar. The agent I connected with didn't understand my problem until I used the keyword "Pre-Roll". After that he understood and told me they would be gone in a few days. Today the ads are gone, but the annoying gray arrow screen still pops up before each new recording plays. This is still an annoying and disrupting reminder how my longtime friend betrayed me, but I suppose I will eventually get over it.


I know that it's minor (just like unattractive graffiti), but it just isn't the "TiVo Experience."


----------



## TKnight206

jcarlin said:


> Opting-out wasn't hard to do, but left an unexpected scar. The agent I connected with didn't understand my problem until I used the keyword "Pre-Roll". After that he understood and told me they would be gone in a few days. Today the ads are gone, but the annoying gray arrow screen still pops up before each new recording plays. This is still an annoying and disrupting reminder how my longtime friend betrayed me, but I suppose I will eventually get over it.


I'm on TE3, but if I were you, I'd complain over the phone about the "annoying gray arrow screen" still popping up before playing recordings. It almost sounds like a bug.


----------



## Balzer

jcarlin said:


> Opting-out wasn't hard to do, but left an unexpected scar. The agent I connected with didn't understand my problem until I used the keyword "Pre-Roll". After that he understood and told me they would be gone in a few days. Today the ads are gone, but the annoying gray arrow screen still pops up before each new recording plays. This is still an annoying and disrupting reminder how my longtime friend betrayed me, but I suppose I will eventually get over it.


Ugh....

I had my first pre-roll ad experience last night. So I immediately called Support to complain, and without any push-back whatsoever, the agent said the ads would stop in 2-3 days. But reading this, I see I will still get that annoying "gray arrow screen" before playing each new recording?

I guess I will have to make another call to complain in a few days. 

And yes, a long time TiVo customer here too, currently using 4 TiVo devices, and have owned a total of 10 since 2001, so it's disappointing. No plans yet to dump TiVo, but it's becoming harder to be a "fanboy" these days.

Jeff


----------



## Donbadabon

Balzer said:


> But reading this, I see I will still get that annoying "gray arrow screen" before playing each new recording?


Once they stopped the ads for me, I've never seen a gray arrow screen. I don't see anything different than before the ads starting showing up. Seamless start to shows for me.

Edit below 
|
V


----------



## Donbadabon

Well, now TiVo has made a liar out of me.

When I started watching recordings tonight they contained that 'gray arrow screen'. They weren't there before now. It takes about a second or two before it goes away. It is very annoying.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Noelmel said:


> I've read this whole thread and I believe you're the first person to get the ads on a Roamio (unless I missed something somewhere). I also have Roamio and thought we weren't getting them.


AFAIK, the only suggestion that TE4 roamios would not get the pre-roll ads were that they were not yet seen even after the bolts got them, and some were wishful, but (TTBOMK) there was no commitment by TiVo itself they would not happen. Apparently the roamios (on TE4) have joined their brethren. I can't claim I am surprised.


----------



## Saturn

I just had a mini start bootlooping and I'm having trouble receiving one of our local stations OTA but only on the Bolt. Even if TiVo GAVE me a mini I'm not sure I'd bother installing it. If Plex had one of their lifetime deals going, I'd switch today...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> I just had a mini start bootlooping and I'm having trouble receiving one of our local stations OTA but only on the Bolt. Even if TiVo GAVE me a mini I'm not sure I'd bother installing it. If Plex had one of their lifetime deals going, I'd switch today...


You didn't switch to Tablo yet?


----------



## Saturn

Pokemon_Dad said:


> You didn't switch to Tablo yet?


I'm really close to pulling the trigger on Plex Pass + HDHomeRun. Either that or Tablo. I thought Tablo had issues with video quality but an article I found shows it can be setup to store the video without recompressing it.


----------



## randian

Saturn said:


> I thought Tablo had issues with video quality but an article I found shows it can be setup to store the video without recompressing it.


Do you have a pointer to that article? Google is not forthcoming.

Mandatory (or so I thought) transcoding, rather than pass-through like TiVo does, was a disqualifier for me as far as possible TiVo alternatives.


----------



## Saturn

randian said:


> Do you have a pointer to that article? Google is not forthcoming.
> 
> Mandatory (or so I thought) transcoding, rather than pass-through like TiVo does, was a disqualifier for me as far as possible TiVo alternatives.


More research, apparently Tablo doesn't do 1080i well: Sports at 1080i looks terrible - FireTV and Roku and Browser

That's a deal breaker for me.

The setting here indicate it will do "HD 1080 10Mbps" but apparently that's still transcoded on the fly, and not very well.

Choosing the Right Live TV & Recording Quality Settings for your Tablo OTA DVR | Over The Air (OTA) DVR | Tablo


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Saturn said:


> That's a deal breaker for me.


Sounds like there's a Plex Pass in your future then! It only transcodes if necessary for the device/app that's accessing it. Also as you know you can expand beyond OTA into other media. I've played with Plex for managing music among other things.


----------



## nrnoble

EDIT: After further investigation, what appears to have happened is that for reasons unknown, the TIVO came out of pause and started playing the food52 Tivo+ channel. Until this had happened, I did not know there was a food52 Tivo+ channel.

A couple of minutes ago I put my Tivo on pause while watching a recorded program. What was strange was that it came out of pause to play a "Food52" commercial which was just a recipe on how to make stir-fry, then another commercial started to play after it. I was puzzled so I selected "Guide" on my Tivo remote and on screen appeared: "Channel not available".

Very odd, never happened before. And it was clear that the two commercials I saw were not traditional commercials that are normally shown on broadcast TV.


----------



## nshahzad

Noelmel said:


> I've read this whole thread and I believe you're the first person to get the ads on a Roamio (unless I missed something somewhere). I also have Roamio and thought we weren't getting them. Maybe I'm getting confused with the TiVo plus (I know that was series 6 and up)
> 
> What software version are you on? I got v5 last night but haven't had any ads yet
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm on a Roamio and I'm getting ads for Tivo+ in the guide. Super annoying, they're on every page. It's the last straw for me. The ads for TMZ are particularly dumb. I was contemplating YouTubeTV with my Shield, I think this has just pushed me over the edge that in totality I'm paying way too much. TiVo basically kept me in the game with the Minis and all too. RIP.

Version 21.9.6.v5-848-6-848


----------



## TKnight206

nrnoble said:


> EDIT: After further investigation, what appears to have happened is that for reasons unknown, the TIVO came out of pause and started playing the food52 Tivo+ channel. Until this had happened, I did not know there was a food52 Tivo+ channel.
> 
> A couple of minutes ago I put my Tivo on pause while watching a recorded program. What was strange was that it came out of pause to play a "Food52" commercial which was just a recipe on how to make stir-fry, then another commercial started to play after it. I was puzzled so I selected "Guide" on my Tivo remote and on screen appeared: "Channel not available".
> 
> Very odd, never happened before. And it was clear that the two commercials I saw were not traditional commercials that are normally shown on broadcast TV.


How long did you have it paused? 30+ minutes? Could this be a new type of screensaver? Not that TiVo has screensavers to my knowledge.



nshahzad said:


> I'm on a Roamio and I'm getting ads for Tivo+ in the guide. Super annoying, they're on every page. It's the last straw for me. The ads for TMZ are particularly dumb. I was contemplating YouTubeTV with my Shield, I think this has just pushed me over the edge that in totality I'm paying way too much. TiVo basically kept me in the game with the Minis and all too. RIP.
> 
> Version 21.9.6.v5-848-6-848


Have you complained over the phone? The only appropriate place for ads is in the Discovery Bar.


----------



## John7777

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Well, I opened up a text dialogue with them and went back and forth about the problem, and they said they are looking into it, and they would send me an email when they have a fix. I told them again and again that until that time, please just remove the pre-rolled ads to remove the conflict, but they would not. Finally they said that when they find a fix and try it and if that does not work, then and only then would they remove the pre-rolled ads. That was 3 or 4 days ago and no word yet. As I said, the ads are not a big deal since when we start a show, we have the remote in our hand anyway, so it's just one more button to advance past the ad which is has been working okay, but it sucks that when I want to check the channel signal strength, I now have to use my other TiVo or do one channel at a time on the bolt, but this has not been enough for us to find another alternative. Too much invested already in a bolt, a roameo, and a mini.


----------



## nrnoble

My recent observation is that they keep playing the same 24 hour tape loop, at least on FilmRise Movies. Same movies at the same time of day over and over. Surely they are in test mode of some kind that is limited to beta testers, otherwise this is the worst roll out Tivo has ever done.

On my Roku it appears I can get all the FilmRise programming VOD, not steam it like it is 1970s TV with no guide that is the current state of Tivo+.

BTW, don't leave your Tivo on Tivo+ when not watching, otherwise it will eat up all your allotted data for the month pretty quickly. Not good!


----------



## Adam C.

John7777 said:


> but it sucks that when I want to check the channel signal strength, I now have to use my other TiVo or do one channel at a time on the bolt, but this has not been enough for us to find another alternative. Too much invested already in a bolt, a roameo, and a mini.


Just curious, why do you have a frequent need to check signal strengths? If you don't want to go to the actual signal meter screen, you can also view signal strengths by going to the Diagnostics screen. This will show you the strength for any channels that are currently tuned.


----------



## nshahzad

TKnight206 said:


> Have you complained over the phone? The only appropriate place for ads is in the Discovery Bar.


No, but I will make it clear when I call to cancel. It looks like they're headed in the direction of ads everywhere. Ads on preroll are particularly egregious.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

nrnoble said:


> My recent observation is that they keep playing the same 24 hour tape loop, at least on FilmRise Movies. Same movies at the same time of day over and over. Surely they are in test mode of some kind that is limited to beta testers, otherwise this is the worst roll out Tivo has ever done.
> 
> On my Roku it appears I can get all the FilmRise programming VOD, not steam it like it is 1970s TV with no guide that is the current state of Tivo+.
> 
> BTW, don't leave your Tivo on Tivo+ when not watching, otherwise it will eat up all your allotted data for the month pretty quickly. Not good!


Didn't you mean to post that in another thread? → Tivo Plus(?)


----------



## mschnebly

Could TiVo possibly just be trying out things and seeing what will work and what wont? You know, throwing things against the wall and see what sticks? Test for backlash?


----------



## BobCamp1

nshahzad said:


> No, but I will make it clear when I call to cancel. It looks like they're headed in the direction of ads everywhere. Ads on preroll are particularly egregious.


They've always been headed in that direction since day 1, you've just chosen to ignore it until now. Technology allows them to put ads where they couldn't before.


----------



## BobCamp1

Bigg said:


> I disagree.The point you are missing here is that TiVo is a DVR first, a cable box second, and everything else (streaming, VOD) third.


The Tivo is a money-making machine first, second, and third. If it's supposed to do those other tasks as well then somebody should tell Rovi.

I should say Tivo is SUPPOSED to be a money-making machine. I don't think DVRs have ever been a money-making machine by themselves. Adding a few crappy streaming apps didn't help. I don't think adding a crappy streaming service will help either.


----------



## Donbadabon

After successfully opting out of the pre-show ads, a few weeks went by and then I started getting the gray arrow screen. And now the ads are back. TiVo is really starting to get to me.


----------



## nshahzad

BobCamp1 said:


> They've always been headed in that direction since day 1, you've just chosen to ignore it until now. Technology allows them to put ads where they couldn't before.


Of course, they've probably been planning it for a while and the new interface was required to be able to implement it. I've been using TiVo since the Series 3 and my parents from Series 1, so it's been loong run. It's unfortunate.

I have RCN, and they provide TiVos as their DVRs. I wonder if/how the in-guide ads, etc, will be implemented for those.


----------



## John7777

Adam C. said:


> Just curious, why do you have a frequent need to check signal strengths? If you don't want to go to the actual signal meter screen, you can also view signal strengths by going to the Diagnostics screen. This will show you the strength for any channels that are currently tuned.


Thanks for the tip on the diagnostic tool. I found it's a good idea to keep tabs on the signal strength since we just have an indoor antennae and weather conditions can mess things up for one channel from time to time. So, if we are recording one or two shows on that network, we can make adjustments for that evening. Not ideal, but until I can get a roof antennae with a remote, I'll make do. It's not all the time, but it does happen.


----------



## Rapt0r

Rapt0r said:


> Latest update:
> So what I was previously trying to describe I've learned is 'TiVo+'. Since it showed up I've been noticing a strange bug with my Guide (TE4). Paging up several times looking to see what's on/coming up, then paging back down after a couple of pages or so my Guide jumps back to the page showing my current channel. If I happen to want to see what's on my Guide this way it won't work anymore. Anyone else having these problems?
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm looking at a couple of streaming services to supplement my existing two big name Streamers, plus adding some premium channels. This will alleviate me of these problems plus an ever increasing cable bill, which has more than doubled over the past year plus, and they removed channels too. Original promotion price for TV & Internet about 2 years ago started at $85, increased to $140 after the year was up, subsequently increased to $185 (and lost some channels), edged up earlier this year to $200, and just got a new bill for $210. Note, I use a CableCard and provide my own modem. Enough is enough!


Final update:
Well, these changes made my mind up. My Bolt now sits in the corner disconnected and missing its CableCard. I called to cancel my Cable TV service though intending to keep Internet service if they would deal. I was ready to select a couple of streaming services and add premiums on my primary streaming device, after doing some research on streaming channel options. What would my Cable company say?

The result of my call to the Cable company yielded keeping Internet and switching to a skinny package of about 60 streaming channels viewable via their app (which I'd previously used on my streaming device). I was offered a decent locked in price good for three years, my already sufficient Internet speed was doubled for free, and combined with the other streaming app and premium adds I chose, I saved $40 a month, and the skinny bundle covered the channels of one of the other pre-selected bundles (cost and offerings). My viewing habits will need to change slightly and yes, I'll have to deal with some ads (still looking at potential options to mitigate this) but, all in all, I'm happier that my out of control Cable bill has been dealt with, for a few years, and I won't have to watch TiVo continue down the road of 'how can we get even more money out of our customers'. Plus, I've saved money and have faster Internet.

Will I ever come back to TiVo? Perhaps, it depends on what happens with Cable. Will they die out or simply change their ways to compete with Streaming. And of course, where TiVo is at the time regarding how they are treating their customers. Now looking into cheaper solutions for OTA DVRs to further mitigate one of my streaming app options ... Good luck, all!


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I highly recommend you try the Channels DVR OTA and TV Everywhere functionality with that skinny bundle. They've also added Locast, ABC, Fox and NBC but those are more dependent on where you live but Locast can be set up once with VPN and then just works afterward without VPN. Channels - Live TV, everywhere



Rapt0r said:


> Final update:
> Well, these changes made my mind up. My Bolt now sits in the corner disconnected and missing its CableCard. I called to cancel my Cable TV service though intending to keep Internet service if they would deal. I was ready to select a couple of streaming services and add premiums on my primary streaming device, after doing some research on streaming channel options. What would my Cable company say?
> 
> The result of my call to the Cable company yielded keeping Internet and switching to a skinny package of about 60 streaming channels viewable via their app (which I'd previously used on my streaming device). I was offered a decent locked in price good for three years, my already sufficient Internet speed was doubled for free, and combined with the other streaming app and premium adds I chose, I saved $40 a month, and the skinny bundle covered the channels of one of the other pre-selected bundles (cost and offerings). My viewing habits will need to change slightly and yes, I'll have to deal with some ads (still looking at potential options to mitigate this) but, all in all, I'm happier that my out of control Cable bill has been dealt with, for a few years, and I won't have to watch TiVo continue down the road of 'how can we get even more money out of our customers'. Plus, I've saved money and have faster Internet.
> 
> Will I ever come back to TiVo? Perhaps, it depends on what happens with Cable. Will they die out or simply change their ways to compete with Streaming. And of course, where TiVo is at the time regarding how they are treating their customers. Now looking into cheaper solutions for OTA DVRs to further mitigate one of my streaming app options ... Good luck, all!


----------



## hectichouse

I was able to opt out using chat support , had to reply three times about the workaround to fast forward the ad but eventually they got the message and gave 72 hours to remove

Sad day for Tivo, I'm an ex-employee, if they needed an extra dollar they could always ask me than repeat the same ad over and over again


----------



## Donbadabon

hectichouse said:


> I was able to opt out using chat support , had to reply three times about the workaround to fast forward the ad but eventually they got the message and gave 72 hours to remove


Good luck. For me the pre-rolled ads were like herpes. Contacting support made them go away for a few weeks and now they are back.


----------



## lessd

One call to TiVo, one mad voice at TiVo, 1 week later my TiVo upgraded and no more preroll Ads, my TiVo is just like before. Software now on my Bolt 21.9.6.v5-USC-11-849. If it stays that way I will be happy.


----------



## Phil T

Still have not seen a preroll ad on my re-manufactured Bolt purchased this spring. I did get Tivo + about a week ago.


----------



## Rapt0r

spiderpumpkin said:


> I highly recommend you try the Channels DVR OTA and TV Everywhere functionality with that skinny bundle. They've also added Locast, ABC, Fox and NBC but those are more dependent on where you live but Locast can be set up once with VPN and then just works afterward without VPN. Channels - Live TV, everywhere


Thanks for the recommendation! Reasonably priced and actually supports my NAS for local DVR storage. I'll be taking a closer look at this service for my needs!

And then an update two hours later: I've now signed up for Channels Plus (which includes TV Everywhere) for their annual subscription (with a free trial month), setup my NAS to host recordings, added my two streaming service sources, installed their apps on my ATV4K and mobile devices, setup my initial recordings and am looking at their recommended OTA hardware for potential purchase. TYVM!


----------



## tenthplanet

Phil T said:


> Still have not seen a preroll ad on my re-manufactured Bolt purchased this spring. I did get Tivo + about a week ago.


Same here, Tivo Plus but no preroll ads on my Bolt.


----------



## TKnight206

hectichouse said:


> I was able to opt out using chat support , had to reply three times about the workaround to fast forward the ad but eventually they got the message and gave 72 hours to remove
> 
> Sad day for Tivo, I'm an ex-employee, if they needed an extra dollar they could always ask me than repeat the same ad over and over again


If they need money, just raise the rates for monthly and annual. Also, isn't the Discovery Bar good enough for ads anyway?



Donbadabon said:


> After successfully opting out of the pre-show ads, a few weeks went by and then I started getting the gray arrow screen. And now the ads are back. TiVo is really starting to get to me.


Keep us in the loop about the ads coming back. @TiVo_Ted did say Yes, our customer support organization does have the ability to opt a customer out of this functionality. I believe there are a number of criteria that go into determining whether a customer is eligible for this (tenure, service plan, etc.). I don't think it's as easy as just calling us up and asking to be opted out.


----------



## JKR123

What are they doing to us? I called about five weeks ago to have the opt-out option turned on for my account. The ads quickly went away. This weekend they are back. I called again today and TiVo support said they would submit a new request. I shouldn’t have to make repeated calls every few weeks to have this turned off.


----------



## mrick

I got my bolt OTA back in August but just set it up today. Was procrastinating as the old TIVO was still working. Surprised to see this pre roll nonsense. I see some say they have not seen them on their Bolt.

I hope that's how it is with my OTA. Seems like class action lawsuit stuff to me.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I'm just saying that there should be a consistent way to exit out of menus and apps and back to whatever TV you were watching before you went into TiVo Central.


I disagree. I think TiVo's design is just fine.



snerd said:


> Seriously? Any and every feature that was meticulously designed into the system is *by definition* what it was "meant" to do. Claiming otherwise is just silly.


That's not true. Some features are necessary, but aren't the main function of a device. Like live TV controls on a TiVo. TiVo is a DVR first, and a cable box second.


----------



## Charles R

TKnight206 said:


> Keep us in the loop about the ads coming back.


I wonder if they have to flag the DVR each time the software gets updated... as in there isn't a "global" static settings (somewhere).


----------



## JKR123

Charles R said:


> I wonder if they have to flag the DVR each time the software gets updated... as in there isn't a "global" static settings (somewhere).


I think that may be the case because I first spoke to someone in billing thinking it was an account setting. I was then transferred to tech support and they kept asking me which box I was calling about. I told them I wanted all of my Bolt boxes to be set the same way.

Edit - What is odd is that my Bolt still showed the same version as it did last week before the ads came back, unless I am looking at the wrong screen.


----------



## snerd

Bigg said:


> Some features are necessary, but aren't the main function of a device. Like live TV controls on a TiVo. TiVo is a DVR first, and a cable box second.


That isn't an absolute, it is in the eye of the user. Someone who mostly uses the TiVo to watch live TV would probably view the live TV controls as the "main function", while those who mostly use the TiVo as a DVR would consider that the "main function".

It's a dessert topping *and* a floor wax.


----------



## Bigg

snerd said:


> That isn't an absolute, it is in the eye of the user. Someone who mostly uses the TiVo to watch live TV would probably view the live TV controls as the "main function", while those who mostly use the TiVo as a DVR would consider that the "main function".
> 
> It's a dessert topping *and* a floor wax.


People also commute to work in F-350 trucks. That doesn't mean they are made for commuting to a 9-5 job, and doesn't mean they'll do a good job at that.


----------



## BobCamp1

Bigg said:


> TiVo is a DVR first, and a cable box second.


You keep saying that even though it isn't true. Note that saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. Reminds me of somebody in D.C.

Some people mainly watch live TV but need a DVR for occasional use. Some people are the opposite. Is Rovi going to tell people that only the latter group should buy a Tivo? Is Rovi going to tell people they're holding the remote wrong?

Trying to get back on topic: as I've said, with the pre-roll ads, the in-guide ads, the home screen ads, etc., Tivo is clearly a Rovi ad machine first. People are upset with this because they bought a Tivo to skip commercials, even though that's not what it was initially designed to do. But since a lot of people were buying the box primarily for that purpose, marketing told the engineers to make it a feature of the box. So they added a feature to skip commercials with one then with zero button presses to attract these people. Then Rovi started putting their own ads everywhere in the box, which went against why a lot of people (wrongly or not) bought the box in the first place.

This upset a lot of people, as this 79-page thread shows. The problem with upset people is that they start pointing out the other flaws in the product, hoping somebody will do something. So suddenly the fact the remote isn't as intuitive as it could be becomes an issue. The Bolts are too hot, they're not reliable, bad customer support, can't transfer from PC to Tivo, etc. And you can't tell upset people they're using the product wrong, because they won't listen. And because they usually have a point.

So my advice is for others to post the other suddenly horrible things about their Tivo in a different thread, and to stop telling people they're using it wrong. Neither is really helping.


----------



## BobCamp1

JKR123 said:


> What are they doing to us? I called about five weeks ago to have the opt-out option turned on for my account. The ads quickly went away. This weekend they are back. I called again today and TiVo support said they would submit a new request. I shouldn't have to make repeated calls every few weeks to have this turned off.


No, you shouldn't. If this becomes a pattern, then I'd suggest going to TE3. There's no in-guide ads and no pre-roll ads. Yet.


----------



## slice1900

I wonder if the reason the ads came back was because Tivo did a software update. From what people say when you ask to have the ads removed they push a software update to your Tivo. If Tivo pushes a 'regular' software update that doesn't contain the "no ads" thing then you'd have to ask to have the ads removed every time there's a software update.

Though I have no idea why they need new software to not show ads. Seems like it could be a simple setting (though maybe one you can't access from the GUI, and they have to set from home base) but they don't have any reason to make it easy. Or to support dropping ads in TE4 at all.

Once again glad I've wanted to stick with TE3 for other reasons, these ads are just the cherry on top for why to stay on TE3!


----------



## Bigg

BobCamp1 said:


> You keep saying that even though it isn't true. Note that saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. Reminds me of somebody in D.C.


I'm definitely not like Trump lol.



> Some people mainly watch live TV but need a DVR for occasional use. Some people are the opposite. Is Rovi going to tell people that only the latter group should buy a Tivo? Is Rovi going to tell people they're holding the remote wrong?


TiVo was never marketed to people who only occasionally used a DVR. And that use case doesn't even make sense. Once you go through the paradigm shift of not watching things when they are live, and sitting down to watch what you want when you want, you're not going to watch much Live TV, you are going to primarily use a DVR as a DVR. People who are stuck in the past and didn't realize this paradigm shift never went out to buy a TiVo and never will.


----------



## snerd

Bigg said:


> People also commute to work in F-350 trucks. That doesn't mean they are made for commuting to a 9-5 job, and doesn't mean they'll do a good job at that.


I suspect there are many construction workers who would disagree. All a matter of perspective. I guess you're just stuck to thinking within your own box.


----------



## mrick

Looks like I bought a new TIVO at the wrong time. Seems like TIVO is at the end of its life cycle. If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to let TIVO be used to stream private collections from a network or external source. Would that be hard? Seems like that would give marketing another card to play. If it is difficult, fine but it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult.


----------



## no-mo

mrick said:


> Looks like I bought a new TIVO at the wrong time. Seems like TIVO is at the end of its life cycle. If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to let TIVO be used to stream private collections from a network or external source. Would that be hard? Seems like that would give marketing another card to play. If it is difficult, fine but it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult.


Years ago you could stream your own content to the TiVo. Another DAS decision to remove that capability.


----------



## Slumpert

Mark my words.. the next “feature” will be post-roll ads, everytime you exit a show you will be forced to watch a ad..


----------



## no-mo

Slumpert said:


> Mark my words.. the next "feature" will be post-roll ads, everytime you exit a show you will be forced to watch a ad..


That's a horrible idea, so you are probably right.


----------



## xanthome

My wife just came in: "The TiVO is acting weird. Every time I go to play a show I see these white arrows".

I just started laughing and told her the story of a company that makes a product to skip ads.... one day began inserting it's own ads... at the top of the screen, in the guide... before your shows...


----------



## dianebrat

mrick said:


> If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to let TIVO be used to stream private collections from a network or external source. Would that be hard? Seems like that would give marketing another card to play.





no-mo said:


> Years ago you could stream your own content to the TiVo. Another DAS decision to remove that capability.


It was replaced with Plex, I'd have to assume they decided why roll their own when there's a decent product someone else maintains that does it for them.


----------



## slowbiscuit

BobCamp1 said:


> You keep saying that even though it isn't true. Note that saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.


LOL, I think a poll of users here would clearly show that Tivo is indeed a DVR first.


----------



## Bigg

snerd said:


> I suspect there are many construction workers who would disagree. All a matter of perspective. I guess you're just stuck to thinking within your own box.


I was referring to a 9-5 (office) type of job. If you're actually a contractor who is hauling stuff around, then an F-350 might be a great vehicle. That being said, most of the guys doing the grunt work drive older beater cars because that's all they can afford.


----------



## jlb

Slumpert said:


> Mark my words.. the next "feature" will be post-roll ads, everytime you exit a show you will be forced to watch a ad..


Well, you could just walk away and go to the bathroom or something I guess.


----------



## Cainebj

I am very late to this thread since I just started seeing the ads in the past week.
I join everyone who feels paying a monthly fee and then having ads forced upon us is fundamentally against why I have a TiVo in the first place. I have been watching more and more content on my Roku and this might be the final straw to dropping TiVo altogether. So - if anyone from TiVo is reading... This was a bad idea.


----------



## rasandefur

I'm livid! I've been with TiVo since the first one came out. Not only was I not aware of this nefarious plot, but I've been thinking there is something wrong with my TiVo for the past couple weeks. They send you a message when you have a new, irrelevant channel added but sneakily try to force commercials on you without any type of notification? It's really a sad statement about how loyal customers are treated today.


----------



## lart2150

I just started getting the ads on my bolt. I changed my router so prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com resolve to 127.0.0.1 and it looks like I'm not getting ads and the video starts playing right away instead of a ad or about a 1-2 second delay.

edit: looks like this is it
https://d2w343a14iggwx.cloudfront.net/

that page tries to load a video from prod.adgwy.tivo.com and if that fails it goes ahead and plays the intended content! I'm using a edgerouter to block the hostname but you could use something like a pi-hole.


----------



## Mikeguy

lart2150 said:


> I just started getting the ads on my bolt. I changed my router so prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com resolve to 127.0.0.1 and it looks like I'm not getting ads and the video starts playing right away instead of a ad or about a 1-2 second delay.


I have no idea of what you did, but like the result. :clapping:


----------



## randian

lart2150 said:


> I just started getting the ads on my bolt. I changed my router so prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com resolve to 127.0.0.1 and it looks like I'm not getting ads and the video starts playing right away instead of a ad or about a 1-2 second delay.


I didn't think any consumer router could block or redirect outgoing connections. What router are you using?


----------



## Halfwatt

Hello - sometime in the last 24-48 hours my series 4 Premier updated it's software to 20.7.4b.RC3-748-2-748....
I believe it was previously 20.7.4.RC42-748-2-748
No pre-roll commercials......yet?
Wasn't experience 3 supposed to be in maintenence mode ?


----------



## lart2150

randian said:


> I didn't think any consumer router could block or redirect outgoing connections. What router are you using?


You are most likely right for the stock firmware. I bet you could do it with dd-wrt or openwrt like firmwares. The other route is to run something like a pi-hole and point your router to that as the dns server.


----------



## JoeKustra

randian said:


> I didn't think any consumer router could block or redirect outgoing connections. What router are you using?


Every Netgear router I have owned for the last 10 years has domain blocking. It also can block by keyword. It's in the Security section. They can block and map ports also.

Sorry, It controls inbound only.


----------



## HeatherA

Wait! Is this really a thing? I haven't seen it yet on my Roamio on T4 but it's about to die (keep getting crazy flashing front lights) and I need to decide if I'm going to get a new TiVo or just say F it and walk away after 20 years.


----------



## V7Goose

HeatherA said:


> Wait! Is this really a thing? I haven't seen it yet on my Roamio on T4 but it's about to die (keep getting crazy flashing front lights) and I need to decide if I'm going to get a new TiVo or just say F it and walk away after 20 years.


Yes, it is really a thing. It is HORRIBLE to many of us, and it has been discussed and complained about ad nauseam in many threads. But you do have the ability to call TiVo and get them stopped after you begin seeing them.

But more importantly, in regards to your Roamio problem, you absolutely do NOT need to buy a new TiVo if you want to keep using it. Totally simple for you to buy a new drive for about $60 and just swap it for the existing one - plug and play, nothing else to do except plug it in (assuming you do not want to try and save your recordings).


----------



## HeatherA

V7Goose said:


> Yes, it is really a thing. It is HORRIBLE to many of us, and it has been discussed and complained about ad nauseam in many threads. But you do have the ability to call TiVo and get them stopped after you begin seeing them.
> 
> But more importantly, in regards to your Roamio problem, you absolutely do NOT need to buy a new TiVo if you want to keep using it. Totally simple for you to buy a new drive for about $60 and just swap it for the existing one - plug and play, nothing else to do except plug it in (assuming you do not want to try and save your recordings).


You think the flashing lights are just the drive? I was reading it could be way worse. Ugh on the ads, I haven't seen them yet but I'll be on the lookout. WTF is TiVo thinking???


----------



## V7Goose

HeatherA said:


> You think the flashing lights are just the drive? I was reading it could be way worse. Ugh on the ads, I haven't seen them yet but I'll be on the lookout. WTF is TiVo thinking???


Yes, 98% chance it is nothing other than the drive. 2% chance that it is your power cord/brick, and that is even easier to replace than the drive (assuming your model Roamio uses an external power supply).


----------



## HeatherA

V7Goose said:


> Yes, 98% chance it is nothing other than the drive. 2% chance that it is your power cord/brick, and that is even easier to replace than the drive (assuming your model Roamio uses an external power supply).


Hmmmm, good to know. I'm trying to get my shows transferred off before trying to figure out what's going on, but I'll start with a new drive.


----------



## V7Goose

The good thing with a Roamio (different than a Bolt), is that you can pull the existing drive, try a different one, and then later put the original drive back in without losing the recordings on the first drive.

If your drive is failing, then you MAY still be able to use MFStools to copy it to a new drive and save all the recordings, but no way of knowing if that will work without trying it.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

HeatherA said:


> Wait! Is this really a thing? I haven't seen it yet on my Roamio on T4 but it's about to die (keep getting crazy flashing front lights) and I need to decide if I'm going to get a new TiVo or just say F it and walk away after 20 years.


It's a thing. A bad thing. But you can try opting out and see what happens.

The new TiVo designs can be a bad thing too. Based on personal experience, I'd recommend getting another Roamio (from eBay, or fully warrantied from Weaknees) or joining us on the TiVo Alternatives thread.


----------



## Podchain

Hi everyone. So I’m relatively new to TiVo. Got my first TiVo last June and use a 3tb Bolt Vox as my main device. Just got my first pre-roll this morning when playing back Young Sheldon. I just wanted to chime in that the process to skip the ad was smooth. The white arrow came up for a split second, a Donut Shop Keurig ad came up, I hit skip, and my show started. My Bolt Vox is hard wired into the router and I’m using gigabit fiber. For what it’s worth, and forgetting the principal of the thing, it really wasn’t a bad experience for me. I haven’t tried opting out yet and I plan to play around with this a bit more before I do anything. I just thought I’d share my experience.


----------



## schatham

Podchain said:


> Hi everyone. So I'm relatively new to TiVo. Got my first TiVo last June and use a 3tb Bolt Vox as my main device. Just got my first pre-roll this morning when playing back Young Sheldon. I just wanted to chime in that the process to skip the ad was smooth. The white arrow came up for a split second, a Donut Shop Keurig ad came up, I hit skip, and my show started. My Bolt Vox is hard wired into the router and I'm using gigabit fiber. For what it's worth, and forgetting the principal of the thing, it really wasn't a bad experience for me. I haven't tried opting out yet and I plan to play around with this a bit more before I do anything. I just thought I'd share my experience.


Glad it was smooth, but they got you. You even remember what the ad was about.


----------



## Podchain

schatham said:


> Glad it was smooth, but they got you. You even remember what the ad was about.


Oh, you never forget your first...pre-roll.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aaronwt

So are these preroll ads supposed to be rolled out to everyone yet? Because I have yet to see one from my Minis, Roamios, or Bolts.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## JKR123

Back on Oct. 1st, my first experience with the pre-roll ads on my Bolt were for Amazon Prime. I called and got them removed but they came back this past weekend. Now they are pushing the Donut Shop Keurig ads, as another poster mentioned. After waiting 72 hours I had to call again yesterday because the ads were still there. I was told my request from a few days ago had previously gone to the back office but had been sent to the wrong area. They told me to give them another 24 hours. TiVo support also stated that the ads had begun showing up on my recordings again because of a software update. I haven’t gotten a chance to check today to see if they have been removed yet again.

(I had the luxury of having my viewing of the live hearings today interrupted by a Spectrum commercial right in the middle of someone testifying. It wasn't during a break. Who do I have to thank for that? I assume TiVo could not have possibly been the culprit, right?)


----------



## mattyro7878

mbernste said:


> Why would you need an exit button on a TiVo? Just press the TiVo button to get out of an app. It seems pretty intuitive and no one had to tell me to use it, it just made sense when I picked up the remote for the first time.


How about "Live TV" ?


----------



## lart2150

mattyro7878 said:


> How about "Live TV" ?


The pre-roll ads are only on recordings. There is also the tivo+ junk in the tv guide (one line/channel per screen).


----------



## MLM1

Sorry if this was already discussed, I couldn't find anything. We got pre-roll ads on one of our Minis last week, and on our Bolt today. On the Bolt, the screen freezes on the background arrow graphics but no ad plays. Sometimes, pressing "D" will start the recording, sometimes not. The only way out is to push the TiVo or Live TV buttons. Not happy. Very unhappy. Ready to throw the thing into the street.


----------



## muzzymate

lart2150 said:


> I just started getting the ads on my bolt. I changed my router so prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com resolve to 127.0.0.1 and it looks like I'm not getting ads and the video starts playing right away instead of a ad or about a 1-2 second delay.
> 
> edit: looks like this is it
> https://d2w343a14iggwx.cloudfront.net/
> 
> that page tries to load a video from prod.adgwy.tivo.com and if that fails it goes ahead and plays the intended content! I'm using a edgerouter to block the hostname but you could use something like a pi-hole.


You are onto something here - https://d2w343a14iggwx.cloudfront.net/ is the ad-viewer URL for sure it. I place that domain in my Pi-hole blacklist, but the results don't end well. Pi-hole seems to resolve blacklist IPs as 127.0.0.1. So you end up with the old old Tivo webpage "Congratulations, you've connected your TiVo box to your broadband connected home" on screen. You'll get stuck on that page with no way for the recording to start. Pressing the TiVo button is the only way to break out of it.

From the Pi-hole logs, I see it blocking the domain search.spotxchange.com coinciding with the start of a recording. I'm not seeing any ads. Just a momentary flash of th e background image you can see accessing that cloudfront.net URL.

I do see the prod.adgwy.tivo.com being accessed from the Pi-hole logs, though it's not on my blocklist. Pi-hole is also blocking cdn.segment.com and api.segment.com as well.

So for me, the URLs to block are search.spotxchange.com, cdn.segment.com, and api.segment.com to not play the ad. (and prod.adgwy.tivo.com & adgwy.tivo.com)

Does anyone here have the ability to replicate?










Edit: I added prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com to my blacklist for good measure. Those URLs are clearly related to the pre-roll ad system, judging by their name.

Final Edit: This Javascript file has references to the cdn.segment.com domain and the various adgwy.tivo.com domains. It seems there are several: dev.adgwy.tivo.com, stage.adgwy.tivo.com, test.adgwy.tivo.com, and the known prod.adgwy.tivo.com. I also see various pixel.tivo.com domains mentioned. Anyone see anything else?


----------



## Mikeguy

HeatherA said:


> Hmmmm, good to know. I'm trying to get my shows transferred off before trying to figure out what's going on, but I'll start with a new drive.


One other thing: if you use the TE3 user interface, it gets no show pre-roll ads nor Guide ad listings (for TiVo+)--no need to contact TiVo to have the pre-roll ads removed. Pre-roll and Guide ads strictly are for TE4 (at least, as TiVo recently saw the situation). 


JKR123 said:


> TiVo support also stated that the ads had begun showing up on my recordings again because of a software update.


Well, now, isn't_ that_ special. I wonder how often (if again) there will be a software update that requires users to call in again to have the pre-roll removed. Put TiVo on speed-dial?


----------



## egeek84

I am pissed!!! Finally hit my account. Sat down to watch the purge and saw the damn ad. I am calling first thing Monday. It’s not even about the ad to me, it’s about principal. Why the heck am I paying 14.99 each month? They really have some nerve.....


----------



## tenthplanet

I have the Tivo Plus and I see arrows but no ads yet. Back to solving the worlds real problems, TV isn't life. Hail Hydra.


----------



## El Maestro

I’m getting these now. Kind of annoying. The weirdly and seemingly randomly placed ads in the guide are actually more bothersome to me.


----------



## JLGomez2667

El Maestro said:


> I'm getting these now. Kind of annoying. The weirdly and seemingly randomly placed ads in the guide are actually more bothersome to me.


Actually not random at all.. Its actually taking up one of yours and mines places for one station.. So if your like me that only really watches lets say 6 or 7 stations and can keep it all in one page now that 6 or 7 station gets kicked to a second page so it messes up your plans to only have to go up and down to see your favorites..


----------



## El Maestro

My issue is that as I scroll through the guide (which I do regularly) the ads ad are in a different spot on the grid every page. It just ruins the experience of looking through thE guide. It would be better if it just occupied the bottom line. When it’s in the middle and in a different spot it is worse.


----------



## ilovedvrs

I just started getting adds on the bottom row of my GUIDE & before playing any show. If these ADS are not removed I will abandon Tivo after 21 years of use and start using my FireTV recast as my primary DVR.


----------



## Mikeguy

The annoyance factor has me further reconsidering moving one of my TE3 TiVo boxes to TE4 as an experiment, just to see what it's like.


----------



## JoeKustra

My nice opinion is "distracting". I have one box on TE4. I was planning on using it for storage, but programs transferred to a TE4 from a TE3 may not play all the way through.


----------



## Chuck_IV

muzzymate said:


> You are onto something here - https://d2w343a14iggwx.cloudfront.net/ is the ad-viewer URL for sure it. I place that domain in my Pi-hole blacklist, but the results don't end well. Pi-hole seems to resolve blacklist IPs as 127.0.0.1. So you end up with the old old Tivo webpage "Congratulations, you've connected your TiVo box to your broadband connected home" on screen. You'll get stuck on that page with no way for the recording to start. Pressing the TiVo button is the only way to break out of it.
> 
> From the Pi-hole logs, I see it blocking the domain search.spotxchange.com coinciding with the start of a recording. I'm not seeing any ads. Just a momentary flash of th e background image you can see accessing that cloudfront.net URL.
> 
> I do see the prod.adgwy.tivo.com being accessed from the Pi-hole logs, though it's not on my blocklist. Pi-hole is also blocking cdn.segment.com and api.segment.com as well.
> 
> So for me, the URLs to block are search.spotxchange.com, cdn.segment.com, and api.segment.com to not play the ad. (and prod.adgwy.tivo.com & adgwy.tivo.com)
> 
> Does anyone here have the ability to replicate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I added prod.adgwy.tivo.com and adgwy.tivo.com to my blacklist for good measure. Those URLs are clearly related to the pre-roll ad system, judging by their name.
> 
> Final Edit: This Javascript file has references to the cdn.segment.com domain and the various adgwy.tivo.com domains. It seems there are several: dev.adgwy.tivo.com, stage.adgwy.tivo.com, test.adgwy.tivo.com, and the known prod.adgwy.tivo.com. I also see various pixel.tivo.com domains mentioned. Anyone see anything else?


I tried using OpenDNS on my Netgear router and blocking these specific domains along with the original one on OpenDNS but it doesn't seem to stop these ads.

My guess is the TiVo is now using a custom DNS and this circumventing the one in the router. I'm thinking the only way to block these is to have something in the router that can specifically block outbound requests to these sites.

***EDIT***
Got it to work by adding all these domains(including the first one listed in the prior message) to the Block Sites of the Security section on my Netgear router. Even if it is inbound, it still stops the videos from playing.

I will monitor to see if they start up again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> I can't do that. The last time I tried, I got to the second commercial break and couldn't stand it. And ended up purchasing the rest of the season. So now I do it with all the shows on the CW. Since I really hate commercials.
> 
> And it still isn't very expensive. I end up paying between 75 cents and $2 per HD episode when I buy the entire season. The most I've paid was $2 an episode. And that was for the Magicians, which is on SyFy. All the CW shows have cost me $1.50 or less per HD episode.


so since PS Vue is now ending, I've switched to Youtube TV. Which has basically the same channels for $5 less per month, and also DOES let you record CW. Just FYI. So, even better setup. HOWEVER it only allows 3 streams at a time, if that matters to you. 6 users though.


----------



## Adam C.

Chuck_IV said:


> ***EDIT***
> Got it to work by adding all these domains(including the first one listed in the prior message) to the Block Sites of the Security section on my Netgear router. Even if it is inbound, it still stops the videos from playing.
> 
> I will monitor to see if they start up again.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there any type of lag when you start the recording or is it seamless?


----------



## Chuck_IV

Adam C. said:


> Is there any type of lag when you start the recording or is it seamless?


Just a little. I see the arrows for a quick second or so, then a quick black screen(which I normally see with the one TiVo that doesn't have the ads yet) and then the recording starts.

When I had the ads, I would see the arrows for a couple seconds, then see a quick swirling circle then the ad would start.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Skye

I started to get the ads this weekend but they are playing havoc on my Bolt. Over 90% of the time when the ad tries to play it crashes my box. The whole thing locks up, nothing works. After a few minutes it reboots on its own. This is really annoying. I added the domains to my routers blacklist this morning so we will see later if that helps.


----------



## Fofer

Skye said:


> I started to get the ads this weekend but they are playing havoc on my Bolt. Over 90% of the time when the ad tries to play it crashes my box. The whole thing locks up, nothing works. After a few minutes it reboots on its own. This is really annoying. I added the domains to my routers blacklist this morning so we will see later if that helps.


Why not just call TiVo and tell them to disable the ads on your account? That's been working for many people. Blacklisting domains hasn't.

And what a poor showing from TiVo, the way they've rolled out these pre-roll ads is just pathetic.


----------



## Skye

I have called twice and asked them to remove them. First time was a month ago, and then again today. They keep trying to tell me its an added value to my account. I said to please opt me out and they said they will refer it to another dept.


----------



## Fofer

Oh, wow. Pathetic indeed. So they went away for a month, and then THEY CAME BACK?

And to be calling this a value-add? Pre-roll ads which crash the TiVo? I would be raising holy hell.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Fofer said:


> Why not just call TiVo and tell them to disable the ads on your account? That's been working for many people. Blacklisting domains hasn't.
> 
> And what a poor showing from TiVo, the way they've rolled out these pre-roll ads is just pathetic.


Even after doing so with TiVo, the issue seems to be after every software update, they start showing up again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andydumi

El Maestro said:


> My issue is that as I scroll through the guide (which I do regularly) the ads ad are in a different spot on the grid every page. It just ruins the experience of looking through thE guide. It would be better if it just occupied the bottom line. When it's in the middle and in a different spot it is worse.


This is may main complaint too. They are incredibly distracting. My wife has strongly told me to look at Tivo alternatives over it, which is huge as she mostly does not care about these things.


----------



## Mikeguy

Chuck_IV said:


> Even after doing so with TiVo, the issue seems to be after every software update, they start showing up again.


Someone else posted that TiVo confirmed that as the reason his pre-roll ads came back, after having been banned: a recent software update.

Lordy, people are going to have to call TiVo after each software update? Perhaps one of the updates can get the no-pre-roll setting to stick.


----------



## MrDell

Mikeguy said:


> Someone else posted that TiVo confirmed that as the reason his pre-roll ads came back, after having been banned: a recent software update.
> 
> Lordy, people are going to have to call TiVo after each software update? Perhaps one of the updates can get the no-pre-roll setting to stick.


 For what its worth... I just called to remove the pre-roll ads and was told that after 72 hours they will be gone and a software update will not bring them back. Time will tell!!! Maybe they tweaked their upgrade process to keep our ad-blocks in place... We can only hope!!!


----------



## Chuck_IV

andydumi said:


> This is may main complaint too. They are incredibly distracting. My wife has strongly told me to look at Tivo alternatives over it, which is huge as she mostly does not care about these things.


I agree. While the pre-roll ads are annoying, they don't compare to the ones in the guide that are very distracting.

My wife all but said the same thing. She was wondering what all the junk was in the guide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Skye

Blocking the URLs works! Just played back a recording and it went to the arrows for a second, then black for a second and then started playback.


----------



## El Maestro

Skye said:


> Blocking the URLs works! Just played back a recording and it went to the arrows for a second, then black for a second and then started playback.


Can you list all that you blocked? Upthread it seemed like there was some uncertainty.


----------



## Skye




----------



## JuanRamos

Ah, that explains why I've never seen ads. My router blocks "all ads" via a Layer3 rule


----------



## realityboy

I just started getting the ads this weekend and opened a support ticket on their website which hopefully will work in letting me opt out. If not, I’ll give customer service a call.


----------



## JolDC

Skye said:


> View attachment 44505


Adding another confirmation that blocking these (I used Xfinity's XFi parental controls) works. Get the gray arrow screen for a second, then a black screen for a second, then my show starts.


----------



## osu1991

Thanks, just blocked those and my Bolt now just goes straight to the video, no arrows or black screen.

Now to go do that on my parents, as the ads came back on theirs.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> so since PS Vue is now ending, I've switched to Youtube TV. Which has basically the same channels for $5 less per month, and also DOES let you record CW. Just FYI. So, even better setup. HOWEVER it only allows 3 streams at a time, if that matters to you. 6 users though.


Wait?! SO you can record CW shows and play them back with the ability to skip/scan past the commercials? Because when I tried out a bunch of streaming services last year, the one thing they had in common was no way to bypass the commercials with the CW shows. If they can be bypassed now I might consider looking at Youtube TV again.

Although I thought I read about another price increase for Youtube TV today?


----------



## tim_m

Now that we've figured out what domains to block to block the ads,I wonder how long before TiVo does something to try and circumvent our blocking. You know they're gonna happen.


----------



## Fofer

I’ve read reports that blocking those domains made other parts of the TiVo software not work. As I haven’t gotten the pre-roll ads yet, I can’t experiment.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Fofer said:


> I've read reports that blocking those domains made other parts of the TiVo software not work. As I haven't gotten the pre-roll ads yet, I can't experiment.


Like what? I haven't seen any detrimental effects yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## osu1991

I've not seen any detrimental effects yet. My Bolt seems to be running much better now. It was getting the flaky the last 3-4 days.


----------



## dhoward

JolDC said:


> Adding another confirmation that blocking these (I used Xfinity's XFi parental controls) works. Get the gray arrow screen for a second, then a black screen for a second, then my show starts.


Can you describe what sites you blocked. I have Xfinity and would like to be prepared when the ads show up.


----------



## JolDC

dhoward said:


> Can you describe what sites you blocked. I have Xfinity and would like to be prepared when the ads show up.


The image I quoted in my reply listed the sites to block.


----------



## dhoward

JolDC said:


> The image I quoted in my reply listed the sites to block.


Thank you.


----------



## jcthorne

My Bolt started getting the preroll ads a couple weeks ago. I have just been hitting the skip button before it even plays the ad until last night.

I let the Bolt play one just to see what they were sending me. It was some ad for health insurance in spanish. Tivo cannot even get its own targeted ads right. Our household does not speak spanish, all the spanish channels are turned off and obviously the language selections on the Bolt are set for English. Yet they send spanish language ads. Funny to think some insurance company is being scammed into paying for advertising targeted at me that literally lands on deaf ears.

Tivo really is headed for the great dumpster fire in the sky. They have lost all capability to execute much of anything.


----------



## mike246

Last night the Tivo pre pre-ad screen hung on every recording and was not able to play anything - not even the ads. System had to be rebooted. I sent a support request to Tivo with the caveat that I would no longer be recommending Tivo unless they remove these ads. I have been a Tivo user since series 2. This goes against the whole reason for Tivo.


----------



## muzzymate

Fofer said:


> I've read reports that blocking those domains made other parts of the TiVo software not work. As I haven't gotten the pre-roll ads yet, I can't experiment.


I have not had any, nor has my wife and kids notified me of any ill effects since blocking the 5 domains search.spotxchange.com, cdn.segment.com, api.segment.com, prod.adgwy.tivo.com, and adgwy.tivo.com with Pi-hole. If you have an example, I can try and replicate but since implementing Friday, I have not noticed any issues with either TiVo services or streaming apps (Netflix, Plex, etc).


----------



## realityboy

realityboy said:


> I just started getting the ads this weekend and opened a support ticket on their website which hopefully will work in letting me opt out. If not, I'll give customer service a call.


E-mail support was useless. Phone support says it'll be 2-3 days which seems to be in line with what others were told.


----------



## Kurs0010

I messaged customer support and had to ask three times in order for them to admit I can opt out of the pre-roll ads. They made it sound like at first that it was not an option, until I mentioned the Tivo Community Forum said otherwise.


----------



## Fofer

muzzymate said:


> I have not had any, nor has my wife and kids notified me of any ill effects since blocking the 5 domains search.spotxchange.com, cdn.segment.com, api.segment.com, prod.adgwy.tivo.com, and adgwy.tivo.com with Pi-hole. If you have an example, I can try and replicate but since implementing Friday, I have not noticed any issues with either TiVo services or streaming apps (Netflix, Plex, etc).


I'm trying to find the posts (perhaps it was a tweet?) but I distinctly remember the conversation a few weeks back. It's possible they were blocking other domains, or TiVo changed something since then, or maybe there was something else wrong with their TiVo. Sorry I'm not able to shed more light, but if it's working for you now, that's all that matters, and hopefully it stays that way.


----------



## kdc914

realityboy said:


> E-mail support was useless. Phone support says it'll be 2-3 days which seems to be in line with what others were told.


Please elaborate on HOW you asked for the pre-roll ads to be removed and what you had to go through to accomplish that. I tried yesterday and was told "not possible"


----------



## Fofer

“That is not true, there are numerous reports on TiVoCommunity and Twitter confirming it is possible. Please escalate my call to your supervisor.”


----------



## Skye

I got an email from Tivo last night telling me that they removed the preroll ads from my account. The email instructed me to go to Settings>network settings>TiVo Service connection and re run that. I did, then tried to play a recording and still saw the background go to the arrows before playback started. I have not taken the rules out of my firewall that block the ads, but just seeing those arrows pop up tells me that they did NOT remove the ads despite what their email said.


----------



## realityboy

kdc914 said:


> Please elaborate on HOW you asked for the pre-roll ads to be removed and what you had to go through to accomplish that. I tried yesterday and was told "not possible"


The phone support went along with it pretty easily. After he gave me the line about being able to skip it, I did mention that sometimes it doesn't even play, it just goes to the frozen screen so skipping wasn't a good solution.


----------



## ej42137

kdc914 said:


> Please elaborate on HOW you asked for the pre-roll ads to be removed and what you had to go through to accomplish that. I tried yesterday and was told "not possible"





Fofer said:


> "That is not true, there are numerous reports on TiVoCommunity and Twitter confirming it is possible. Please escalate my call to your supervisor."


There are also several reports of TiVo support telling people it is not possible.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah well I wouldn’t mention that part, and I would refuse to get off the phone or drop the issue until I spoke to a CSR or supervisor who handled the issue properly for me.


----------



## Skye

Tivo sent me another email asking me to try again. Pre roll ads are now gone. Yes!!!


----------



## aaronwt

I finally saw my first pre-roll ad today.

Sent from my Tab S 10.5


----------



## Narkul

Got my first pre-roll today too. I knew it was coming when I started to see the arrows screen before recordings start. Didn't get the usual "new mail" notification when new features are added, lol. Keurig Donut Shoppe coffee was the pitch for me. The second time I encountered it I just hit the skip and it was done. Not nearly as intrusive as the TiVo plus plastered in the guide and menu bar. I miss the ToDo menu item that TiVo plus booted out.


----------



## Noelmel

Narkul said:


> I miss the ToDo menu item that TiVo plus booted out.


Yah that annoyed me too I'm so used to hitting the shortcut TiVo 3. Changed it to TiVo 8 so just gotta get used to it now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JKR123

Today marks the 5th time I have had to call requesting the pre-roll ads to be removed from my Bolt boxes. This was due to various reasons. 

(1) My first request was on Oct. 1st and I was not able to view a recording that had a pre-roll ad. They said to give them 72 hours and they would remove them. They were successfully removed until Nov. 10th. 

(2) My 2nd request was on Nov. 10th, and they told me they had not completely removed all of the ads from my 1st request which is why I was seeing them again. At this time I also asked that the ads be removed from all of my boxes if they were not doing this at an account level. They said to give them up to 72 hrs.

(3) My 3rd request was on Nov. 14, and they told me they still had not completed my 2nd request because it had been routed to the wrong back office area. It was also at this time that they told me that the ads came back due to a software update from version 21.9.2 to version 21.9.6. This didn’t make sense to me though because my box in question had been updated on Oct. 30th with version 21.9.6 but I didn’t see the ads come back until Nov. 10th. They told me my request had been escalated and to give them 24 hours to make the change. They also told me after they make the change the additional gray arrow screens would be removed. 

(4) My 4th request was on Nov. 15th and they told me they were still working on my previous request and to give them another 72 hours. 

(5) My 5th request was today, Nov. 20th, when I saw the ads and also the gray arrow screens on a different Bolt box. They told me that my previous request had only been made to one of my boxes even though I had requested it to cover all of my boxes. Again, they are telling me to give them up to 72 hours to get this corrected.


----------



## chiguy50

aaronwt said:


> I finally saw my first pre-roll ad today.





Narkul said:


> Got my first pre-roll today too. I knew it was coming when I started to see the arrows screen before recordings start. Didn't get the usual "new mail" notification when new features are added, lol. Keurig Donut Shoppe coffee was the pitch for me. The second time I encountered it I just hit the skip and it was done. Not nearly as intrusive as the TiVo plus plastered in the guide and menu bar. I miss the ToDo menu item that TiVo plus booted out.


Although we must assume that you are both on TE4 (Hydra), it would be appreciated if everyone would please specify your TiVo model(s) and/or UI when posting about pre-roll ad appearance.

If you are on TE3, this would be news of primary and unsettling significance on the issue of this loathsome "feature."


----------



## Fofer

JKR123 said:


> Today marks the 5th time I have had to call requesting the pre-roll ads to be removed from my Bolt boxes. This was due to various reasons.
> 
> (1) My first request was on Oct. 1st and I was not able to view a recording that had a pre-roll ad. They said to give them 72 hours and they would remove them. They were successfully removed until Nov. 10th.
> 
> (2) My 2nd request was on Nov. 10th, and they told me they had not completely removed all of the ads from my 1st request which is why I was seeing them again. At this time I also asked that the ads be removed from all of my boxes if they were not doing this at an account level. They said to give them up to 72 hrs.
> 
> (3) My 3rd request was on Nov. 14, and they told me they still had not completed my 2nd request because it had been routed to the wrong back office area. It was also at this time that they told me that the ads came back due to a software update from version 21.9.2 to version 21.9.6. This didn't make sense to me though because my box in question had been updated on Oct. 30th with version 21.9.6 but I didn't see the ads come back until Nov. 10th. They told me my request had been escalated and to give them 24 hours to make the change. They also told me after they make the change the additional gray arrow screens would be removed.
> 
> (4) My 4th request was on Nov. 15th and they told me they were still working on my previous request and to give them another 72 hours.
> 
> (5) My 5th request was today, Nov. 20th, when I saw the ads and also the gray arrow screens on a different Bolt box. They told me that my previous request had only been made to one of my boxes even though I had requested it to cover all of my boxes. Again, they are telling me to give them up to 72 hours to get this corrected.


I'm not sure what disgusts me more: the very introduction of these pre-roll ads, or TiVo's inconsistent and unreliable customer service related to the issue. It all sounds awful.

Many of us have waited decades for TiVo to finally catch up to the old ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs, and offer completely automatic comskip. It finally happened, and for tagged shows, it works beautifully, it just requires we pay $$$ for new hardware and to upgrade to Hydra to get the feature. For TiVo to then introduce their own pre-roll at the beginning of our (local!) playback just seems so slimy to me. That they're using a software mechanism that is crashing some people's TiVos is pathetic. And that they haven't figured out how to make it simple for any customer to opt out and stay opted out and not have to worry about it anymore, is the straw that (finally) breaks this camel's back. I mean, really. The saga you've shared above is ridiculous.


----------



## BobCamp1

JKR123 said:


> Today marks the 5th time I have had to call requesting the pre-roll ads to be removed from my Bolt boxes. This was due to various reasons.


Either get rid of the box or roll back to TE3. If Tivo is that incompetent with your account, then you've got to take other action.


----------



## Charles R

JKR123 said:


> Again, they are telling me to give them up to 72 hours to get this corrected.


At this point it's well documented as to which domains to block (without any negative impact) so there is no real reason to deal with TiVo especially if each new release brings them back (at some point)... block them and by done.


----------



## foghorn2

chiguy50 said:


> Although we must assume that you are both on TE4 (Hydra), it would be appreciated if everyone would please specify your TiVo model(s) and/or UI when posting about pre-roll ad appearance.
> 
> If you are on TE3, this would be news of primary and unsettling significance on the issue of this loathsome "feature."


Yes, if you are going to report you are getting pre rolls, post the TiVO model and UI.


----------



## Adam C.

Charles R said:


> At this point it's well documented as to which domains to block (without any negative impact) so there is no real reason to deal with TiVo especially if each new release brings them back (at some point)... block them and by done.


I agree. Dealing with Tivo seems like such a waste of time on this. Even if they block the ads temporarily, people have reported that they reappear in the future. Blocking the domains is one solution, although I fully expect those to change over time as well, so it will be a wild goose chase keeping up


----------



## JKR123

foghorn2 said:


> Yes, if you are going to report you are getting pre rolls, post the TiVO model and UI.


My Bolts are the VOX models both 500 GB and 1TB and they all seem to be at software version 21.9.6.v.5. I didn't know about the capability of rolling them back to TE3 until just recently so they are running with what came installed on them which I understand is called Hydra.

I saw some posts about blocking domains. Is there any documentation that someone could point me to in order to guide me through that process? I don't know a lot about that stuff but I can certainly follow directions. Thanks


----------



## Charles R

Adam C. said:


> Blocking the domains is one solution, although I fully expect those to change over time as well, so it will be a wild goose chase keeping up


I doubt TiVo will put that much effort into it. Based on my (daily) usage pi-hole blocks from 15-30% of my DNS requests with the majority of them being "big boys" Now most of them are via Blocklists which I'm sure get updated on a regular basis however I get the impression they are fairly static. If they don't try I can't imagine TiVo giving much of an attempt.


----------



## aaronwt

foghorn2 said:


> Yes, if you are going to report you are getting pre rolls, post the TiVO model and UI.


I noticed the ad on my Mini Vox. I'll need to check my Bolts, ROamio, and Mini v1 this weekend. I run Hydra(or whatever it's called now) on all my TiVos.


----------



## ej42137

Charles R said:


> At this point it's well documented as to which domains to block (without any negative impact) so there is no real reason to deal with TiVo especially if each new release brings them back (at some point)... block them and by done.


Requesting to opt-out gives TiVo the message that you are very unhappy with the pre-roll ads. If you just block the domains they're going to think you are all right with them.


----------



## Adam C.

ej42137 said:


> Requesting to opt-out gives TiVo the message that you are very unhappy with the pre-roll ads. If you just block the domains they're going to think you are all right with them.


Good point. But highly unlikely that they will care or do anything differently.


----------



## JKR123

Does anyone understand exactly how the process works of when and how the ads get attached to our recordings? For example, are they being physically written to our hard drive or is some call being made to get the ad at the moment that we push play? 

Also does anyone understand what they are having to do with the cleanup process to remove the ads once they opt-out someone? For example, do they have to manually go into each recording that has an ad attached to it and delete it? Or is it just some type of setting that no longer performs the operation of getting and displaying the ad?

Answers to the above might help explain why we still see ads when we thought they had been turned off for us.


----------



## Amnesia

I think the only practical way for them to do it is for the individual TiVo know that it's supposed to show an ad. Then when you try to play a recording, it right then goes out to the Internet and plays it. The "cleanup process" is to push an update to your TiVo to tell it to stop going out to the Internet for the ads.


----------



## Charles R

ej42137 said:


> Requesting to opt-out gives TiVo the message that you are very unhappy with the pre-roll ads.


What makes you think they don't already know...


----------



## ej42137

Charles R said:


> What makes you think they don't already know...


That they are still running pre-roll ads. If they knew we were unhappy enough to cause them revenue loss one imagines they would stop.


----------



## ej42137

Adam C. said:


> Good point. But highly unlikely that they will care or do anything differently.


All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


----------



## Charles R

ej42137 said:


> If they knew we were unhappy enough to cause them revenue loss one imagines they would stop.


Give them a _little_ credit... they well knew there would be (some) pushback. From the feedback (here) it's been less than I would have thought... probably them as well. Hard to guess the numbers aren't in their favor. Loss of subscriber fees vs streaming revenue... I'd love to see the numbers. Hard to lose revenue on us lifetimers who have already decided we are on our last TiVo... which appears to be the vocal majority.


----------



## TonyD79

ej42137 said:


> That they are still running pre-roll ads. If they knew we were unhappy enough to cause them revenue loss one imagines they would stop.


Asking to opt out doesn't say you won't pay them anymore. Not paying them anymore says you won't pay them anymore. But by then you are gone. You can threaten but they won't really care if you still stay after a concession. In other words, there is little you can do that will be affective. They KNOW no one likes the ads. That's why they invented skip. They just don't care.


----------



## Narkul

I was furious about pre-roll, but after recieving my first ad, pressing the skip was effortless and I just can't be bothered to go through a CSR battle to get it turned off. The Tivo+ intrusion in the UI really bothers me though. If I thought it was a vehicle to get a Tivo based Android UI I'd feel a lot better about it, but I'm afraid it's more likely just an obtrusive revenue scheme.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Sometimes the ad plays ok.
Sometimes i get the static sreeen & have to shut off the tv & put it back on to play.


----------



## longrider

I just started receiving the ads a few days ago and really is not a big deal. Once the ad starts pressing skip takes me straight to the start of the show and if an ad does not load the arrow screen is only there for 2 or 3 seconds before the program starts. I am not going to lose any sleep over this


----------



## leiff

I haven't contacted tivo about these pre roll ads I recently get. Most of the time the program just starts with the Gray screen with the arrows for a couple seconds. Seems to happen after I start every show now. Very annoying. For those who called Tivo to get pre ads removed, does the Gray screen with the arrow delay go away also? I don't wanna bother With a solution unless it also removes the two Gray screen arrow delay screen. I may go into my router firewall settings to block these sites as was listing to see if that will work. I read reports here say for some that the Gray screen still persists after this


----------



## MrDell

leiff said:


> I haven't contacted tivo about these pre roll ads I recently get. Most of the time the program just starts with the Gray screen with the arrows for a couple seconds. Seems to happen after I start every show now. Very annoying. For those who called Tivo to get pre ads removed, does the Gray screen with the arrow delay go away also? I don't wanna bother With a solution unless it also removes the two Gray screen arrow delay screen. I may go into my router firewall settings to block these sites as was listing to see if that will work. I read reports here say for some that the Gray screen still persists after this


I called customer service on Monday and they were removed yesterday after forcing a network connection... after removal there was no more grey screen arrow display and my recording loads right up with no delay. I hope this is a permanent fix because it's a pain arguing with the reps over something that should not be there in the first place


----------



## Flashmasta

I got my first ad a few days ago and then used the URLs posted earlier in my OpenDNS blacklist. I haven't seen an ad since and my OpenDNS stats show the URLs being blocked so I know that part is working at least. I assume URL blocking will always work to a certain extent. As long as we can figure out which URLs they are using we should be able to always block it because the Tivo would need to assume "oh well the ad service is down, we need to keep the viewing process moving" and move to the DVR'ed content.


----------



## TonyD79

Flashmasta said:


> I got my first ad a few days ago and then used the URLs posted earlier in my OpenDNS blacklist. I haven't seen an ad since and my OpenDNS stats show the URLs being blocked so I know that part is working at least. I assume URL blocking will always work to a certain extent. As long as we can figure out which URLs they are using we should be able to always block it because the Tivo would need to assume "oh well the ad service is down, we need to keep the viewing process moving" and move to the DVR'ed content.


Do you get the gray arrows?


----------



## jjberger2134

leiff said:


> I haven't contacted tivo about these pre roll ads I recently get. Most of the time the program just starts with the Gray screen with the arrows for a couple seconds. Seems to happen after I start every show now. Very annoying. For those who called Tivo to get pre ads removed, does the Gray screen with the arrow delay go away also? I don't wanna bother With a solution unless it also removes the two Gray screen arrow delay screen. I may go into my router firewall settings to block these sites as was listing to see if that will work. I read reports here say for some that the Gray screen still persists after this


I contacted support last week about this after my TiVo really acted weird - freezing on that grey screen. TiVo removed the pre-roll ads, and I forced a couple of connections to the server, then rebooted the machine. TiVo works fine now with no grey arrow screen. Goes right to the recording when pushing play. I think the screen persists for those that haven't forced a connection and possibly rebooted.


----------



## aaronwt

Charles R said:


> Give them a _little_ credit... they well knew there would be (some) pushback. From the feedback (here) it's been less than I would have thought... probably them as well. Hard to guess the numbers aren't in their favor. Loss of subscriber fees vs streaming revenue... I'd love to see the numbers. Hard to lose revenue on us lifetimers who have already decided we are on our last TiVo... which appears to be the vocal majority.


Yes. I plan on removing a $6.95 monthly roamio. That was first on a Series 3 in 2007. Then got transferred to a Premiere and then to a Roamio. Tweleve years of that $6.95 fee. I will tell them I am cancelling because of the preroll ads. Although I guess I need to make sure that roamio actually has them.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## aaronwt

leiff said:


> I haven't contacted tivo about these pre roll ads I recently get. Most of the time the program just starts with the Gray screen with the arrows for a couple seconds. Seems to happen after I start every show now. Very annoying. For those who called Tivo to get pre ads removed, does the Gray screen with the arrow delay go away also? I don't wanna bother With a solution unless it also removes the two Gray screen arrow delay screen. I may go into my router firewall settings to block these sites as was listing to see if that will work. I read reports here say for some that the Gray screen still persists after this


I've never seen a gray screen with preroll. The ad starts right away. And when finished, for a second I see a black screen with the pause symbol in the upper right corner.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## Charles R

Flashmasta said:


> As long as we can figure out which URLs they are using we should be able to always block it because the Tivo would need to assume "oh well the ad service is down, we need to keep the viewing process moving" and move to the DVR'ed content.


I know if you DNS blacklist the guide ad server it endlessly tries to connect every 10 seconds. The guide works as normal but internally TiVo never gives up trying. Funny thing is if you whitelist the domain after booting the ads never appear in the guide (even though it hits the domain the moment it's whitelisted).


----------



## lman

I called TIVO 11/18 and it was my understanding that the ads would be removed. I received the following email, so I'm not confident that they will remove the ads.

This message is to inform you the issue you reported ----- is still under investigation. We appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue.
If you have any questions please feel free to contact TiVo
Technical Support at 877-367-8486.

The Case Number for this inquiry is 0000000. Please refer to this number
if you choose to contact us again regarding this request. You may email us to
with your inquiry using this link, or you can login to My Support at www.tivo.com/mysupport and
submit your case. Replies directly to this email will not be received.


----------



## Flashmasta

TonyD79 said:


> Do you get the gray arrows?


I get the arrows and then it goes into the recording.


----------



## TonyD79

Flashmasta said:


> I get the arrows and then it goes into the recording.


Thanks.


----------



## pldoolittle

Ads started tonight. Calling TiVo in the AM.

TiVo is working hard to get me to cut the cord and dump cable and TiVo.


----------



## mattyro7878

My Bolt gets the arrow but I have never seen an ad. I wonder why some folks have had this for a month and others nada de particular.


----------



## tenthplanet

mattyro7878 said:


> My Bolt gets the arrow but I have never seen an ad. I wonder why some folks have had this for a month and others nada de particular.


Same here, I guess it's just another "Tivo Unsolved Mysteries" chapter IV..


----------



## Flashmasta

mattyro7878 said:


> My Bolt gets the arrow but I have never seen an ad. I wonder why some folks have had this for a month and others nada de particular.


My guess is that they don't have the ad inventory. They probably only have a small number of advertisers that have decided to pay for the ads and where they have made buys it is likely for a limited number. They are not showing ads because they haven't sold them yet.


----------



## Gary R Howard

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


Is Tivo crazy! this is why I have a Tivo, to not watch commercials


----------



## Mikeguy

Flashmasta said:


> My guess is that they don't have the ad inventory. They probably only have a small number of advertisers that have decided to pay for the ads and where they have made buys it is likely for a limited number. They are not showing ads because they haven't sold them yet.


I just wish, then, that the arrow screen didn't appear and that the TiVo box would go directly to the show. I'm on TE3 and so don't have this, but I think that having the delay and an arrow graphic screen before my shows, where I watch most of my television, even that in near-real time, via TiVo recordings, would irritate me to no end (but maybe people get used to it--like mosquito bites?  ).


----------



## NorthAlabama

Mikeguy said:


> ... I think that having the delay and an arrow graphic screen before my shows, where I watch most of my television, even that in near-real time, via TiVo recordings, would irritate me to no end (but maybe people get used to it--like mosquito bites?  ).


people get used to mosquito bites?!? there's a section of my medicine cabinet dedicated to defense against, and recovery from, those little buggers.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Charles R said:


> I know if you DNS blacklist the guide ad server it endlessly tries to connect every 10 seconds. The guide works as normal but internally TiVo never gives up trying. Funny thing is if you whitelist the domain after booting the ads never appear in the guide (even though it hits the domain the moment it's whitelisted).


Which one is the guide ad server?

Are you not seeing the extra lines in the guide or are they just blank?

After adding all the domains to the block list, while I do t see pre roll ads anymore, I still see guide ads.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> Which one is the guide ad server?


Tivo Plus(?)


----------



## Chuck_IV

Charles R said:


> Tivo Plus(?)


Interesting. Doesn't seem to do anything for my ads. I added it to the same list that I created for the pre roll ads and rebooted the tivo, but they still appear.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> Doesn't seem to do anything for my ads.


I just...

Restarted TiVo and the guide ads are there - it hit mm1.tivoservice.com

Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted

Once restarted no ads in the guide - keeps trying to hit mm1.tivoservice.com

Deleted the blacklist - it hit mm1.tivoservice.com and still no ads.
I'm using a Roamio on TE4...


----------



## TKnight206

lman said:


> I called TIVO 11/18 and it was my understanding that the ads would be removed. I received the following email, so I'm not confident that they will remove the ads.
> 
> This message is to inform you the issue you reported ----- is still under investigation. We appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue.
> If you have any questions please feel free to contact TiVo
> Technical Support at 877-367-8486.
> 
> The Case Number for this inquiry is 0000000. Please refer to this number
> if you choose to contact us again regarding this request. You may email us to
> with your inquiry using this link, or you can login to My Support at www.tivo.com/mysupport and
> submit your case. Replies directly to this email will not be received.


Have you tried speaking with a supervisor over the phone?



Gary R Howard said:


> Is Tivo crazy! this is why I have a Tivo, to not watch commercials


(I'm on TE3.)

The pre-roll ads make absolutely no sense. I say keep the (static) ads in the Discovery Bar.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Charles R said:


> I just...
> 
> Restarted TiVo and the guide ads are there - it hit mm1.tivoservice.com
> 
> Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted
> 
> Once restarted no ads in the guide - keeps trying to hit mm1.tivoservice.com
> 
> Deleted the blacklist - it hit mm1.tivoservice.com and still no ads.
> I'm using a Roamio on TE4...


How are you blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com? I put in my blocked list in my netgear router(like Indid with the sites for the pre-roll ads and they for for that) and when try to access that site from a web browser, it says it is blocked but I am still seeing the ads in the guide, even after rebooting all my TiVo's.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> How are you blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com?


I'm using pi-hole. Now I'm on a Roamio/TE4 (without pre-roll ads) so perhaps the process is different... I have done the above three times with the same results.


----------



## muzzymate

I just added mm1.tivoservice.com to my Pi-hole block list and will report back on the results. Hoping that will duplicate your results Charles R, getting rid of the in-guide TiVo+ channel listings. I'm running a Bolt and three Mini Voxes.

The blocking of the other domains continue to successfully block pre-roll ads with no apparent ill effects for the past week.


----------



## Yodlei

Haven't been on lately but just reporting that my Roamio OTA on TE4 hasn't gotten them yet.


----------



## JoeKustra

muzzymate said:


> I just added mm1.tivoservice.com to my Pi-hole block list and will report back on the results. Hoping that will duplicate your results Charles R, getting rid of the in-guide TiVo+ channel listings. I'm running a Bolt and three Mini Voxes.


I'm using a Roamio OTA and blocking that domain hasn't blocked the in guide ads.


----------



## ufo4sale

I don't get it. I get the arrows but no ads and it only last a second. Where are my ads???


----------



## Amnesia

How's your Internet speed? Presumably when the Tivo goes out to get the ad, it only waits a short time before either playing it or giving up...


----------



## ufo4sale

Amnesia said:


> How's your Internet speed? Presumably when the Tivo goes out to get the ad, it only waits a short time before either playing it or giving up...


The best that's out there today.


----------



## Charles R

JoeKustra said:


> I'm using a Roamio OTA and blocking that domain hasn't blocked the in guide ads.


That's interesting... I presume you are on the 846 release? I'm trying the process once again...


No ads - restarted TiVo
Ads - after restart
Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted
No ads - after restart

Now I can delete the blacklist and the ads won't appear (although mm1... gets hit) until you reboot. Note once the ads are "loaded" they won't go away until you blacklist and restart.

*Per the images...* first one shows mm1 getting hit and ads follow. Second shows mm1 blocked and no ads. Third is the guide after restarting with mm1 getting hit (ads). Fourth is the guide after restarting with mm1 blocked (no ads).


----------



## JoeKustra

Charles R said:


> That's interesting... I presume you are on the 846 release? I'm trying the process once again...


I checked my router's log and it's not showing the blocked site. I need to play with this. It might be a Netgear bug.


----------



## Fofer

ufo4sale said:


> The best that's out there today.


...which is....?


----------



## ufo4sale

Fofer said:


> ...which is....?


FIOS top tier.


----------



## texasPI

Charles R said:


> That's interesting... I presume you are on the 846 release? I'm trying the process once again...
> 
> 
> No ads - restarted TiVo
> Ads - after restart
> Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted
> No ads - after restart
> 
> Now I can delete the blacklist and the ads won't appear (although mm1... gets hit) until you reboot. Note once the ads are "loaded" they won't go away until you blacklist and restart.
> 
> *Per the images...* first one shows mm1 getting hit and ads follow. Second shows mm1 blocked and no ads. Third is the guide after restarting with mm1 getting hit (ads). Fourth is the guide after restarting with mm1 blocked (no ads).


I've treid this before on my Pi-hole but it did not block the TiVo+ ads. I'll have to try again. Also, are you using your Pi-hole for DHCP as well?


----------



## Charles R

texasPI said:


> Also, are you using your Pi-hole for DHCP as well?


No, although it shouldn't make any difference. I have done the above a dozen times or so and each time it has worked. Only once after removing mm1 from the blacklist (after restarting) did the ads came back after a day or so). All of others have been several days and between restarts (to test again...) no guide ads in site. Once restarted I remove the blacklist so TiVo doesn't endlessly (every 10 seconds) try to connect to mm1.


----------



## texasPI

Charles R said:


> No, although it shouldn't make any difference. I have done the above a dozen times or so and each time it has worked. Only once after removing mm1 from the blacklist (after restarting) did the ads came back after a day or so). All of others have been several days and between restarts (to test again...) no guide ads in site. Once restarted I remove the blacklist so TiVo doesn't endlessly (every 10 seconds) try to connect to mm1.


Thanks, I'll try again tonight.


----------



## no-mo

Called Tivo customer support and canceled my service at the next renewal. They offered to turn off the ads and reduce my yearly subscription. I said no. My biggest issue is "what's next?" and I can't pre-opt-out of the next "thing" they want to force on me. I'm just done. I moved to Channels DVR a month ago and I'm more than happy. Tried Emby, Plex and Tablo but Channels DVR is by far the best option for me. Plus, their devs are quite amazing.


----------



## Flashmasta

Charles R said:


> No, although it shouldn't make any difference. I have done the above a dozen times or so and each time it has worked. Only once after removing mm1 from the blacklist (after restarting) did the ads came back after a day or so). All of others have been several days and between restarts (to test again...) no guide ads in site. Once restarted I remove the blacklist so TiVo doesn't endlessly (every 10 seconds) try to connect to mm1.


I just got around to trying the guide ad blocking and that domain does seem to do the trick. I think it is worth the trade-off of losing channel icons.


----------



## Fofer

This is the first I’ve heard about this ad-blocking step removing the icons for channels in the guide. I wouldn’t like that. What other ill effects are introduced by blocking that domain?


----------



## Charles R

Flashmasta said:


> I just got around to trying the guide ad blocking and that domain does seem to do the trick. I think it is worth the trade-off of losing channel icons.


Just checked and the channel icons are now there... still no guide ads. I'm glad someone duplicated the results as I was beginning to doubt myself. 

Note we are discussing ads in the guide not pre-roll ads (the topic of the thread).


----------



## Flashmasta

Charles R said:


> Just checked and the channel icons are now there... still no guide ads.


Awesome, maybe they just take a while to load and I've never noticed before. I saw they were also missing in your screenshot so I assumed we were both seeing a permanent change. All I really tested after was the guide real quick, of course, and made sure a service connection completed without error.


----------



## Flashmasta

Charles R said:


> Just checked and the channel icons are now there... still no guide ads. I'm glad someone duplicated the results as I was beginning to doubt myself.
> 
> Note we are discussing ads in the guide not pre-roll ads (the topic of the thread).


When you have mm1 blocked are you able to get online.tivo.com to work (see your recorded shows for example) or the mobile app?


----------



## Charles R

Flashmasta said:


> When you have mm1 blocked are you able to get online.tivo.com to work (see your recorded shows for example) or the mobile app?


Blacklisted it and online appears to be available via my browser (My Shows - Guide). Note I remove the blacklist as soon as it restarts... since it seems silly for TiVo to keeping to access it every 10 seconds - and again once hit the guide ads still don't appear.


----------



## Phil T

mattyro7878 said:


> My Bolt gets the arrow but I have never seen an ad. I wonder why some folks have had this for a month and others nada de particular.


Same here. I just started getting the black arrow but no ads. I have Comcast 175/5 Performance Pro internet.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Charles R said:


> That's interesting... I presume you are on the 846 release? I'm trying the process once again...
> 
> 
> No ads - restarted TiVo
> Ads - after restart
> Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted
> No ads - after restart
> 
> Now I can delete the blacklist and the ads won't appear (although mm1... gets hit) until you reboot. Note once the ads are "loaded" they won't go away until you blacklist and restart.
> 
> *Per the images...* first one shows mm1 getting hit and ads follow. Second shows mm1 blocked and no ads. Third is the guide after restarting with mm1 getting hit (ads). Fourth is the guide after restarting with mm1 blocked (no ads).


So I installed Pi-Hole in a container on my QNAP server and started using that as my primary DNS and adding the mm1.tivoservice.com to the block list DOES remove the ads from the guide. I also added the original 4 sites to the block list and I'm not even seeing the arrows now, just straight into the recording. This is good cause I was starting to have issues with just having them in my privacy block site list on my Netgear Router(One of the sites would ultimately block me from playing recordings on my Bolt).

Only issue I see is no channel logos on my bolt, HOWEVER, on my Roamio, the ads are gone but the channel logos remained. Hoping they come back after a while on the Bolt. I am seeing mm1.tivoservice.com being hit every 10 seconds like mentioned so I now removed it from the block list to see what happens.

So for those of you who have a QNAP server and want to run Pi-Hole in a container that seems to work just as well as on a Raspberry Pi, see this thread on the QNAP forums and follow posts 1 AND 2(since you will hit an issue with what post 2 references and shows how to fix... SOLUTION: Pi-Hole running in a container on QNAP Container Station - QNAP NAS Community Forum

Thanks Charles R for the detailed screens.

**EDIT**
Channel logos came back, so things are back to normal(before the ad intrusion).


----------



## Flashmasta

Chuck_IV said:


> I also added the original 4 sites to the block list and I'm not even seeing the arrows now, just straight into the recording.


On videos viewed for the first time? If you stop watching a recording and come back to it later you don't get the arrows, at least in my experience. My Tivo only tries to shows ads when I am watching a recording for the first time.


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> Channel logos came back, so things are back to normal(before the ad intrusion).


Victory.  There might be one (or more) already however I think someone should start a thread with the domains to block and the various methods. All within the first post - now it's rather willy-nilly.


----------



## Adam C.

Charles R said:


> Blacklisted mm1.tivoservice.com and restarted
> No ads - after restart


Did that server not exist at all before the guide ads? Just wondering if there is any chance it could be used for anything else that nobody has noticed yet.


----------



## Adam C.

I just tried blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com using the parental controls in my router settings. After a restart the guide ads are still there. Roamio OTA (TE4)


----------



## Charles R

Adam C. said:


> Did that server not exist at all before the guide ads? Just wondering if there is any chance it could be used for anything else that nobody has noticed yet.


Don't know and anything is possible. A (quick) Google search doesn't find any references beyond our current obsession. Recordings, guide data and AutoSkip work which is pretty much all I care about at this point.

Also remember once restarted you can remove the blacklist and it gets hit right away. So based on how the code is written some things (dependent on it) might still work or not work. Like the guide ads don't start appearing once it's successful if it initially failed. Something else might begin to work ...


----------



## Charles R

Adam C. said:


> I just tried blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com using the parental controls in my router settings. After a restart the guide ads are still there. Roamio OTA (TE4)


Since multiple people have had success I'd verify it was actually blocked. And since the topic is off topic for this thread I'm out.


----------



## osu1991

It removed the guide ads from mine after restart but guide icons were also removed. I removed the block and the ads and icons immediately returned.


----------



## Fofer

osu1991 said:


> It removed the guide ads from mine after restart but guide icons were also removed. I removed the block and the ads and icons immediately returned.


Apparently if you wait a bit the channel icons eventually return, even while the ads are gone.


----------



## aaronwt

Flashmasta said:


> On videos viewed for the first time? If you stop watching a recording and come back to it later you don't get the arrows, at least in my experience. My Tivo only tries to shows ads when I am watching a recording for the first time.


What are the arrows? I have never seen them. I get an ad that starts instantly. Then if you hit the channel up for skip, I get a black screen for one second with the pause symbol in the upper right corner.


----------



## Narkul

aaronwt said:


> What are the arrows? I have never seen them. I get an ad that starts instantly. Then if you hit the channel up for skip, I get a black screen for one second with the pause symbol in the upper right corner.


I think maybe the arrows are a placeholder while the ad buffers before loading. Maybe your internet speed is high enough that the placeholder doesn't show.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Flashmasta said:


> On videos viewed for the first time? If you stop watching a recording and come back to it later you don't get the arrows, at least in my experience. My Tivo only tries to shows ads when I am watching a recording for the first time.


I think you are right. didn't realize they only show when you view a recording for the first time.



Adam C. said:


> I just tried blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com using the parental controls in my router settings. After a restart the guide ads are still there. Roamio OTA (TE4)


Parental controls or site blocking via the router didn't work for me with the guide ads. Plus doing this for the pre-roll ads was blocking playback on one of my tivos too. So that is why I eventually went with Pi-Hole. It seems to block things differently than your router/parental controls



aaronwt said:


> What are the arrows? I have never seen them. I get an ad that starts instantly. Then if you hit the channel up for skip, I get a black screen for one second with the pause symbol in the upper right corner.


It is basically a background image that is visible before the ad starts. Since it is blocking the ads, you see the background image for a second or so before it goes into the recording(first time only it seems).


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> Parental controls or site blocking via the router didn't work for me with the guide ads. Plus doing this for the pre-roll ads was blocking playback on one of my tivos too. So that is why I eventually went with Pi-Hole. It seems to block things differently than your router/parental controls


Just as a point of reference (for anyone reading along) pi-hole doesn't block data per se. Rather it doesn't return (via DNS) the domain's address so the domain is never reached/contacted. Unlike a typical firewall where the data would be dropped once received if it meets certain criteria...


----------



## Fofer

I wasn’t seeing the TiVo+ ad in the channel guide in my TiVo Mini. Then, for the first time on this device, I actually selected TiVo+ from the main menu, just to check out its performance. That was a mistake. It went to a black screen for about 15 seconds. Just a black screen. I thought the TiVo Mini had crashed. :-/

Then, finally, the TiVo+ welcome screen appeared, and it’s asking me to “Exit” or “Accept” the Privacy Policy and Terms of Use. But the remote control doesn’t work at all, I can’t move the selection or click to Accept. I have tried every button on my remote, which is the TiVo keyboard remote, connected by RF, which otherwise has worked fine for me years. All I can do is hit the TiVo button to go back to the main screen. What a joke. Did TiVo even test this?

To add insult to injury, *NOW* I see the annoying AF ad for TiVo+ in my guide, for channels I can’t even access, because the TiVo Mini won’t allow me to click to “Accept.”

I’ve been on a rollercoaster with TiVo since their very first model. I’ve had very many TiVos and have been one of their most loyal cheerleaders since the beginning. But now, I have completely lost all faith in their ability to deliver a customer-friendly experience. All things considered, YouTube TV is looking better and better. I doubt I’ll ever buy another piece TiVo hardware again. What a sad end for a once-innovative company.

Now to find the appropriate TiVo+ thread to troubleshoot this in.... (sigh)


----------



## Adam C.

Charles R said:


> Just as a point of reference (for anyone reading along) pi-hole doesn't block data per se. Rather it doesn't return (via DNS) the domain's address so the domain is never reached/contacted. Unlike a typical firewall where the data would be dropped once received if it meets certain criteria...


Is there any way to get Pi-hole working on a Windows machine? That's all I have available. From what I see on their site it looks like you need to have a Unix-based system.


----------



## Charles R

Adam C. said:


> Is there any way to get Pi-hole working on a Windows machine? That's all I have available. From what I see on their site it looks like you need to have a Unix-based system.


Not without installing VirtualBox on the Windows machine and running Ubuntu inside of it.  I'd probably recommend picking up a Raspberry Pi (since the latest model is much more powerful). I use an ODROID XU4 (more powerful than the Pi and still well under $100) running Ubuntu 18.04 with Pi-hole, Plex Media Server, MySQL Server (for Kodi), file server, print server and backups. Both will run headless (without issue) and only take an hour or so to install/configure. The new Pi (kit - power supply, SD card, case, etc) will hit you around $80.

If nothing else they are great little boxes to throw on your network and you'll probably find quite a few uses for it. They draw next to zero power and run endlessly...


----------



## Beryl

Thanks to TMC, the pre-roll ads should disappear. I invested in 3 lifetime TiVo boxes and don't plan to sell them right now. Pity we can't opt-out of all ads but I'm happy to see TiVo will comply on these. 


> Jayrrah Praise (11/26/2019, 12:43:41 PM): Thank you for contacting TiVo Support Chat, my name is Jayrrah Praise and I am happy to assist you.
> Jayrrah Praise (11/26/2019, 12:44:21 PM): i can see that you would like to remove the pre-roll add. Right?
> Me (11/26/2019, 12:44:41 PM): Yes
> Jayrrah Praise (11/26/2019, 12:45:06 PM): You may see an advertisement before your recording begins. TiVo lets you easily skip these advertisements using the 'Skip', 'OK' or 'Fast Forward' buttons on your remote control.
> Me (11/26/2019, 12:45:43 PM): Please remove them. I understand that they will be removed if requested.
> Jayrrah Praise (11/26/2019, 12:46:04 PM): I apologize for the inconvenience. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.
> Me (11/26/2019, 12:46:21 PM): Thank you.





Charles R said:


> Note we are discussing ads in the guide not pre-roll ads (the topic of the thread).


Is there a specific thread for this? I'd prefer the magic words that work for TiVo to remove the ads but I'm willing to make minor modifications on my devices.


----------



## aaronwt

Narkul said:


> I think maybe the arrows are a placeholder while the ad buffers before loading. Maybe your internet speed is high enough that the placeholder doesn't show.


I do have the Gigabit INternet tier on FiOS.


----------



## 241705

Fofer said:


> Apparently if you wait a bit the channel icons eventually return, even while the ads are gone.


Do the channel icons return even with the block still in place? Any idea how long that takes?


----------



## CurtisG

Adam C. said:


> I just tried blacklisting mm1.tivoservice.com using the parental controls in my router settings. After a restart the guide ads are still there. Roamio OTA (TE4)


I just added a block for mm1.tivoservice.com and the pre-roll ads are gone and everything else seems to be working fine!


----------



## Dmbsw61380

I don't know why I feel compelled to post this here. Maybe it is because I figure the person who receives the email, will only read the first sentence and then send me a former, re-created response.

However this is the complaint that I just sent Tivo:

I find the sluggish (and not even in HD) ad placed before each one of DVR programs to be completely unacceptable. I was already frustrated with a few smaller issues with the service, but this is much different. 

I was always interested in Tivo because I was convinced that Tivo set itself apart by providing a better service. However, it wasn't until the introduction of "skip" that it made enough since for me to pay a high premium for the service.

It is a HORRIBLE idea to take one of your main selling points (that customers hate watching commercials) and actually insert more of what they hate, into the product. While, yes, I can skip the ad, the skipping of the initial ad is not seamless like the "skip" during a normal commercial in a DVR'd program.

This change ensures that every program I watch starts sluggishly.

It ensures that everytime I start a DVR'd program, I am reminded of how much this decision to insert these ads infuriates me.

I had hoped that when Tivo was bought out, it wouldn't cause things like this. But it has been downhill ever since. It is beyond hypocritical and outright theivery to take the tag line you have been selling TiVo's with: "you can skip commercials" and now actually be the one who is inserting EXTRA commercials into your product.

This is a joke.

It has been common sense in tech for many years now, that companies make money by EITHER:

- Inserting ads into their product (games, videos, etc)

OR

- Charging a premium to customers who would rather pay, than see their experience flooded with ads.

It has always been the poorly run, greedy, bound to fail entities who try and collect from their customers on both of those ends.

I am sure you were planning on receiving backlash and were willing to accept the criticism that this decision was bound to generate.

I would bet you have calculated that you'll lose a few customers, but that it will be fine in the long run. Screw em.

Well, you may be surprised how many people may say "screw Tivo".

I for one am not willing to pay $400 for a product, with a $150 reoccurring yearly fee, just to have ads shoved down my throat, when most other tech, will allow me to avoid this kind of thing for a minimal fee.

Tivo will let me skip commercials with the push of a button. While a traditional DVR will make me take 10 seconds to fast forward through that same commercial. If you are banking on people continuing to be willing for fork over $300-400 for that small difference, when this is the amount of respect you are going to show them, you might be surprised.

It may shock you, how a tiny little change like this will motivate people to leave Tivo. Its a matter of disrespect. You are ruining a platform that we felt had a certain amount of loyalty to the customer. We trusted the company to innovate, not roll us back.

You are losing a Tivo customer here, FOR SURE.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Bravo, @Dmbsw61380. My family is enjoying automatic commercial skip with Channels DVR, as we transition smoothly away from our aging Roamio (the last great TiVo series ever made).

To avoid the pre-roll and Guide ads I suggest you switch your TiVo to TE3 if you can, and then join us on the TiVo Alternatives thread before your next annual renewal comes around.


----------



## Tony_T

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Bravo, @Dmbsw61380. My family is enjoying automatic commercial skip with Channels DVR, as we transition smoothly away from our aging Roamio (the last great TiVo series ever made).
> 
> *To avoid the pre-roll and Guide ads I suggest you switch your TiVo to TE3 *if you can, and then join us on the TiVo Alternatives thread before your next annual renewal comes around.


Does TiVo no longer allow an opt-out of the pre-roll ads?


----------



## Fofer

Tony_T said:


> Does TiVo no longer allow an opt-out of the pre-roll ads?


They do.

Switching back to TE3 for this alone seems foolhardy to me, but then again I'm one of the folks who appreciates quite a few things about TE4, and wouldn't want to submit myself again to the ancient UI of TE3 and that outdated experience, let alone losing all of my current recordings. I'd opt out first and if that's eventually not possible, I'd block the ads, and if that's eventually not possible, I will ditch TiVo completely.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tony_T said:


> Does TiVo no longer allow an opt-out of the pre-roll ads?


Until the next software update, anyway. And there's at least some transition time when you don't get the ads but you do get the arrows hanging there in space for a while before each show.

Also in TE3 there are no in-guide ads, I've tweaked the Discovery Bar to the point it doesn't seem like advertising, and we're using Fire TV for streaming.

When our TE3 TiVo goes, we will switch entirely over to Channels DVR for OTA, TVE, and/or cable. That system is already set up and working well here.


----------



## Tony_T

Pokemon_Dad said:


> *Until the next software update, anyway*. And there's at least some transition time when you don't get the ads but you do get the arrows hanging there in space for a while before each show.
> 
> *Also in TE3 there are no in-guide ads, I've tweaked the Discovery Bar to the point it doesn't seem like advertising, and we're using Fire TV for streaming.*
> 
> When our TE3 TiVo goes, we will switch entirely over to Channels DVR for OTA, TVE, and/or cable. That system is already set up and working well here.


Until TiVo gets around to putting the pre-roll ads on TE3 
Have you heard that TiVo is pulling everyone out of the opt-out in the next software update? Link please.
(..and that arrow 'hangs there' for about a tenth of a sec for me)


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tony_T said:


> Until TiVo gets around to putting the pre-roll ads on TE3
> Have you heard that TiVo is pulling everyone out of the opt-out in the next software update? Link please.
> (..and that arrow 'hangs there' for about a tenth of a sec for me)


People opted out, then found themselves opted back in when their units updated. Maybe TiVo has fixed that for the next update, maybe they haven't.

Pre-roll ads on TE3? We're ready to move on here. Automatic commercial skip works nicely in Channels DVR, even in shows that TiVo does not index, and the Gracenote EPG is more accurate.


----------



## Beryl

These ads are unbearable. I’m looking into alternatives as well.


----------



## ufo4sale

With people like "you" it's just a matter of time before TiVo comes crumbling down. How is TiVo staying afloat any way?


----------



## V7Goose

ufo4sale said:


> With people like "you" it's just a matter of time before TiVo comes crumbling down. How is TiVo staying afloat any way?


Well, I do not know who specifically you were trying to insult, but I will gladly accept your label.

Rovi does not "deserve" to stay afloat, in my opinion. As an individual, my one buying decision will not make much difference, but the marketplace will eventually make that decision (either way). Rovi is incompetent, and they have repeatedly shown a disgusting disregard for any customer-centric approach to business. There certainly is no shortage of examples of companies that have taken that approach and gone out of business because intelligent people decided they did not deserve to get money thrown at them just because they once had a good product.

Do I want TiVo to go away? No, and I will miss them. But if the decision was mine alone, I would absolutely prefer that they went out of business tomorrow than be allowed to continue on their current path. The only thing they deserve at this time is to have the market reject them. If they learn in time and can change, then my opinion will change too.

As long as the sheep continue to throw money at them and stay quiet, you can be TOTALLY assured that they will continue to feel justified that every decision they have made is wonderful, so NOTHING will change for the better. When one stupid company goes out of business, there is always somebody else with a better idea and more intelligence to step in and fill the vacuum.


----------



## dswallow

ufo4sale said:


> With people like "you" it's just a matter of time before TiVo comes crumbling down. How is TiVo staying afloat any way?


Pretty sure nothing is stopping you from sending money to TiVo every month to help them "stay afloat."


----------



## V7Goose

dswallow said:


> Pretty sure nothing is stopping you from sending money to TiVo every month to help them "stay afloat."


I'll bet he could even send them more money every WEEK if it is that important to him!


----------



## ufo4sale

dswallow said:


> Pretty sure nothing is stopping you from sending money to TiVo every month to help them "stay afloat."


I paid "all in" so that's not an option unless you amortize the cost which I think they do anyway. I'm a shareholder for this company so I have a vested interest in their success. But I do agree that the choices TiVo continue to make is not the TiVo that I grew up with. Time will reveal all.


----------



## Tony_T

Beryl said:


> These ads are unbearable. I'm looking into alternatives as well.


Agreed. 
Have you tried calling/chatting with TiVo support and requesting an opt-out?


----------



## schatham

Maybe these ads have nothing to do with Tivo making extra money. Maybe it's just a trial run to perfect them for a selling point to cable operators who may choose Tivo. Then the cable operators will input their ads.


----------



## dswallow

ufo4sale said:


> I paid "all in" so that's not an option unless you amortize the cost which I think they do anyway. I'm a shareholder for this company so I have a vested interest in their success. But I do agree that the choices TiVo continue to make is not the TiVo that I grew up with. Time will reveal all.


I was just being sarcastic... if you are so worried about TiVo you can send them money. No subscription required.  TiVo has pretty much fully alienated me through their actions now, so highly unlikely they'll get anything more from me after 19 years, unless they repent from these terrible decisions.


----------



## V7Goose

Me too. 

I will continue using the products and services for which I already paid (costing TiVo money every month, but not me), and I absolutely will not give them another cent. If I should want or need another box, I will ONLY consider a used Lifetime box on the secondary market so that I avoid rewarding this greedy and incompetent company any further.

They won't put any money or effort in getting their terrible Guide data correct, but they happily spent huge sums of both in implementing ways to shove more commercials down our throats. This clearly shows that they have zero intent of ever trying to EARN our business again. And this behavior does not engender any loyalty in me.


----------



## Chuck_IV

V7Goose said:


> They won't put any money or effort in getting their terrible Guide data correct, but they happily spent huge sums of both in implementing ways to shove more commercials down our throats. This clearly shows that they have zero intent of ever trying to EARN our business again. And this behavior does not engender any loyalty in me.


This the my absolute #1 sore spot. Their guide data is flat out putrid, for lack of a better word. From generic episode descriptions to "to be announced" to completely WRONG guide data, it PO to no end. And it continues to get WORSE. IMO, it is just pure laziness on the company's part for allowing this to happen. But if you look at their history, even before buying TiVo, they don't seem to care because somehow they have managed to still make money in spite of their laziness.

I've gotten rid of the guide and pre-roll ads via PiHole but I can't do anything to improve the guide data. So I have been seriously considering the Spectrum World box. I know it is inferior to TiVo but they have better guide data and better integration with their original programming and on-demand.

I am at the point now that I really don't want to be giving TiVo any more money to promote their laziness/arrogance(I am a monthly sub).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Chuck_IV said:


> This the my absolute #1 sore spot. Their guide data is flat out putrid, for lack of a better word. From generic episode descriptions to "to be announced" to completely WRONG guide data, it PO to no end. And it continues to get WORSE. IMO, it is just pure laziness on the company's part for allowing this to happen. But if you look at their history, even before buying TiVo, they don't seem to care because somehow they have managed to still make money in spite of their laziness.
> 
> I've gotten rid of the guide and pre-roll ads via PiHole but I can't do anything to improve the guide data. So I have been seriously considering the Spectrum World box. I know it is inferior to TiVo but they have better guide data and better integration with their original programming and on-demand.
> 
> I am at the point now that I really don't want to be giving TiVo any more money to promote their laziness/arrogance(I am a monthly sub).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Rovi has always been about patents, not quality. To get back to the Gracenote guide, since you've got patience for PiHole, I suggest you give Channels DVR a look.

The 6-tuner HD HomeRun Prime (for CableCard) has been delayed, but there are still new 3-tuner Primes on eBay (check DRM compatibility with your cable provider). Or go entirely OTT using your Spectrum credentials and TVE. I'm testing a mix of OTA and TVE right now. (Wow, that's a lot of initials. But TiVo motivated me to get used to them fast.)

Discussions of these topics are woven throughout the TiVo Alternatives thread, among others.


----------



## Amnesia

I took a look at the (future) HD HomeRun Prime, but I didn't see anything about 4K in there....or did I just miss it?


----------



## ej42137

ufo4sale said:


> With people like "you" it's just a matter of time before TiVo comes crumbling down. How is TiVo staying afloat any way?


If TiVo continues on this course it does not deserve to live.


----------



## Jed1

Chuck_IV said:


> This the my absolute #1 sore spot. Their guide data is flat out putrid, for lack of a better word. From generic episode descriptions to "to be announced" to completely WRONG guide data, it PO to no end. And it continues to get WORSE. IMO, it is just pure laziness on the company's part for allowing this to happen. But if you look at their history, even before buying TiVo, they don't seem to care because somehow they have managed to still make money in spite of their laziness.
> 
> I've gotten rid of the guide and pre-roll ads via PiHole but I can't do anything to improve the guide data. So I have been seriously considering the *Spectrum World box*. I know it is inferior to TiVo but they have better guide data and better integration with their original programming and on-demand.
> 
> I am at the point now that I really don't want to be giving TiVo any more money to promote their laziness/arrogance(I am a monthly sub).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Spectrum gets its guide data from TiVo/Rovi/Gemstar TVGuide.
Our Customers | TiVo


----------



## Chuck_IV

Jed1 said:


> Spectrum gets its guide data from TiVo/Rovi/Gemstar TVGuide.
> Our Customers | TiVo


I'm not sure I believe this because when I see missing/wrong data in the TiVo guide(which is frequent these days.. even after doing a call home) I pull up the Spectrum app on my Roku and I can see that guide data and it is correct.

Why is it TiVo's completely wrong/missing when Spectrums isn't?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Adam C.

Is the pre-roll ad rollout still ongoing? I still have not seen them on my Roamio OTA.


----------



## JoeKustra

Chuck_IV said:


> Why is it TiVo's completely wrong/missing when Spectrums isn't?


Perhaps TiVo took good data, changed it, then published it? We'll never know. I used to compare data with tv.com, but it now uses CBS Interactive. It dropped TiVo for data last a few months back. Wonder why?


----------



## Chuck_IV

Adam C. said:


> Is the pre-roll ad rollout still ongoing? I still have not seen them on my Roamio OTA.


I "thought" I read at some point that Roamios wouldn't see the prerolls, only the guide ad intrusions. I have 2 roamios and a bolt and neither of the Roamios ever saw the preroll ads. Only the Bolt did.

(I'm using PiHole now. So no ads of any kind for me on any TiVo device)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Beryl

Tony_T said:


> Agreed.
> Have you tried calling/chatting with TiVo support and requesting an opt-out?


Yeah. Still waiting on the "72 hour delay" in getting it fixed. I'm guessing the delay is doubled due to the holidays so if it isn't fixed in a couple more days, I'll call.

I have lifetime boxes so I've already invested in and paid TiVo for their unwanted ads. There would be no issue if they had warned us about the ads. Instead, they touted a new "experience " with no mention of the ads. This isn't illegal but it is unethical, IMO. I will not invest further into TiVo.


----------



## Tony_T

Beryl said:


> Yeah. Still waiting on the "72 hour delay" in getting it fixed. I'm guessing the delay is doubled due to the holidays so if it isn't fixed in a couple more days, I'll call.
> 
> I have lifetime boxes so I've already invested in and paid TiVo for their unwanted ads. There would be no issue if they had warned us about the ads. Instead, they touted a new "experience " with no mention of the ads. This isn't illegal but it is unethical, IMO. I will not invest further into TiVo.


Agree 100% 
If they were smart, they would not put use ads in Lifetime subscribers TiVo, and offer reduced subscriptions to mo with ads. Works for Hulu.


----------



## Beryl

Tony_T said:


> Works for Hulu.


Good analogy. I wouldn't touch Hulu before they offered the ad-free tier. I loathe ads and willing to pay to not see them or insist on being compensated if required to watch them.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Amnesia said:


> I took a look at the (future) HD HomeRun Prime, but I didn't see anything about 4K in there....or did I just miss it?


Good question! I'll answer in the alternatives thread so we don't get too far OT here: https://www.tivocommunity.com/co...


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tony_T said:


> Works for Hulu.


----------



## Adam C.

Beryl said:


> Good analogy. I wouldn't touch Hulu before they offered the ad-free tier. I loathe ads and willing to pay to not see them or insist on being compensated if required to watch them.


Agreed. When I started out with Hulu I had the cheap plan with ads. I couldn't make it through the first week before I upgraded to the ad-free plan. Hulu ads are particularly obnoxious because they often occur at unnatural breaks (like in the middle of a scene), and often it's the same ads repeated over and over again with each break.


----------



## NorthAlabama

Adam C. said:


> Hulu ads are particularly obnoxious because they often occur at unnatural breaks (like in the middle of a scene), and often it's the same ads repeated over and over again with each break.


that's how they get you to upgrade your plan.


----------



## Adam C.

NorthAlabama said:


> that's how they get you to upgrade your plan.


Yeah but I believe they actually make more money from the subscribers watching the ads.


----------



## ufo4sale

dswallow said:


> I was just being sarcastic... if you are so worried about TiVo you can send them money. No subscription required.  TiVo has pretty much fully alienated me through their actions now, so highly unlikely they'll get anything more from me after 19 years, unless they repent from these terrible decisions.


TiVo has plenty of money but I will start a class action lawsuit for the poor suffering TiVoites who have to endure the transition from the "happy fun TiVo" aka happy tivo face to the one we know today "the turn your back" silhouette TiVo we see today. It really breaks my heart. Since money is no object to me I should take over the company and bring peace to TiVo land. Lets rejoice for a new TiVo leader.


----------



## Beryl

Adam C. said:


> Yeah but I believe they actually make more money from the subscribers watching the ads.


I think so too. Hulu on the web was free for some time and their revenue stream was by ads. When they added the first tier with slightly different content for a fee, that is when I bowed out. For many subsequent years customers like me offered to pay Hulu to avoid ads. They finally added that plan.

TiVo ads are big for them but they didn't calculate the cost of existing customers leaving the fold. They didn't consider that one of the main reasons we purchase DVR devices is the ability to skip ads.


----------



## Beryl

Moreover, I believe the popularity of Netflix was the catalyst for Hulu adding the no-ad plan. Many people were satisfied watching complete seasons on Netflix after they’ve been aired — ad free.


----------



## Beryl

Another call to TiVo, “Network connect”, and reset got rid of the nastiness. So much better now without the long delay and ugly arrow before each recording. 

I’m also enjoying autoskip but not enough to update my main Family Room TiVo. I don’t trust the “new experience” that much.


----------



## Sapphire

I remember when sling did this. I didn’t like it then and don’t like it now.


----------



## JammasterC

Hi new TiVo Bolt VOX guy here!
Waiting for FedEx to deliver.

I hope I didn’t make a mistake seeing these type of threads.
But would I really know the difference with these added commercials and advertisements as it’s all I’m going to know being new to me anyway?
I have 30 days to return product.

I recently finished my 2 year agreement with Comcast.
I gave back all their tv equipment.
No way I was gonna pay almost $10 ea for 3 boxes.
Saved $70 on my bill with adjustments.

Next is to port my Comcast voice number to Ooma. 
Then I’ll just stick with some basic tv and Internet service.
(Also bringing in my own modem and router to save $13 a month)

I absolutely hated using the Xfinity Stream bets app on the Roku.
Weak DVR, no commercial skips, poor searching, etc.
That’s what caused me to look towards TiVo.


----------



## V7Goose

JammasterC said:


> I hope I didn't make a mistake seeing these type of threads.
> But would I really know the difference with these added commercials and advertisements as it's all I'm going to know being new to me anyway?


Hmmmmm . . . New user that has never known anything of TiVo before the current ads? This from someone who joined here in 2005 and has 4,550 posts?

Methinks something doesn't smell quite right here...


----------



## JoeKustra

V7Goose said:


> Hmmmmm . . . New user that has never known anything of TiVo before the current ads? This from someone who joined here in 2005 and has 4,550 posts?
> Methinks something doesn't smell quite right here...


It's not that unusual. Some forums are very non-TiVo and can be a safer alternative to FB. Just click on someone's post count and you can view their post history. I'm not into gaming, but there are several threads for that. Should I even mention the political threads?


----------



## V7Goose

OK - just seemed strange to me. Not trying to judge. Sorry . . .

(Just to illustrate where I was coming from - I do not even know those other forums EXIST! This is a TiVo focused board, and i doubt I have ever made any post that was not in a TiVo forum.)


----------



## JammasterC

V7Goose said:


> Hmmmmm . . . New user that has never known anything of TiVo before the current ads? This from someone who joined here in 2005 and has 4,550 posts?
> 
> Methinks something doesn't smell quite right here...


2005 I had a DirecTV version of TiVo I guess, maybe for a few quick years.
That's when I joined TiVo Community.
I stayed for the Happy Hour fun!
I'm new to the "all" TiVo box and service.


----------



## Tony_T

Beryl said:


> Another call to TiVo, "Network connect", and reset got rid of the nastiness. So much better now without the long delay and ugly arrow before each recording.
> 
> I'm also enjoying autoskip but not enough to update my main Family Room TiVo. I don't trust the "new experience" that much.


I don't get ads, but do get the "Arrow" for less than a sec before each recording (If I blink I miss it )


----------



## MrDell

JammasterC said:


> Hi new TiVo Bolt VOX guy here!
> Waiting for FedEx to deliver.
> 
> I hope I didn't make a mistake seeing these type of threads.
> But would I really know the difference with these added commercials and advertisements as it's all I'm going to know being new to me anyway?
> I have 30 days to return product.
> 
> I recently finished my 2 year agreement with Comcast.
> I gave back all their tv equipment.
> No way I was gonna pay almost $10 ea for 3 boxes.
> Saved $70 on my bill with adjustments.


 TiVo is definitely the way to go to not only save some serious money by not having to rent inferior cable boxes for ridiculous monthly fees, but also have a platform that works fairly well. I will admit that TiVo is ruining everything with these adds but I made a call and complained and they took them away. Hopefully they won't return, but if they do I will be on the phone again! They really dropped the ball on trying to force these adds on their customers. I really like TiVo and I really don't think you made a mistake... I think that you will be happy... especially if you call to have the adds removed.. but if you don't at least you have your thirty day return window. Good luck.. hope everything works out.


----------



## JammasterC

I told my 15 & 22 year old kids that we’re getting TiVo!

They were like like, “what is that?”


----------



## JammasterC

Looking at my TiVo account online, there’s an option to ‘Change Privacy Status’.
You can “Opt Out” to turn off ‘Advertising in the TiVo experience’.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

JammasterC said:


> Looking at my TiVo account online, there's an option to 'Change Privacy Status'.
> You can "Opt Out" to turn off 'Advertising in the TiVo experience'.


"Advertising in the TiVo experience will be personalized for you" 
-- Doesnt have an opt out.
"Your anonymous viewing information will be partially used for analytics to help improve the TiVo experience" 
-- Does.
You mean that ??


----------



## JoeKustra

JammasterC said:


> Looking at my TiVo account online, there's an option to 'Change Privacy Status'.
> You can "Opt Out" to turn off 'Advertising in the TiVo experience'.


If you use that option, please post if it takes effect. It used to indicate a desire to stop collecting use data. My status is still "Beta".


----------



## JammasterC

Salacious Crumb said:


> "Advertising in the TiVo experience will be personalized for you"
> -- Doesnt have an opt out.
> "Your anonymous viewing information will be partially used for analytics to help improve the TiVo experience"
> -- Does.
> You mean that ??


Once I Opted Out of "Your anonymous viewing information will be partially used for analytics to help improve the TiVo experience"
the other, "Limit Ad Tracking" turned off or greyed out.

But I could "Limit Ad Tracking" if I didn't "Opt Out of anonymous viewing information..."


----------



## mntvjunkie

ufo4sale said:


> With people like "you" it's just a matter of time before TiVo comes crumbling down. How is TiVo staying afloat any way?


"People like me" aren't the reason Tivo isn't staying afloat. I'm a long time Tivo user, having bought my original Phillips S1 in 2001, and have owned several Tivo's and sold several Tivo's. Tivo is killing Tivo by suing instead of innovating, and introducing "features" to it's platform that go against what the company sold for the past 20 years. The Tivo of today isn't even the Tivo of 5 years ago, let alone 20. And while Tivo is becoming LESS consumer friendly and innovative, Comcast is becoming MORE innovative and consumer friendly, offering cloud DVR, seamless on-demand integration, the ability to watch TROUBLE FREE from iPad, iPhone, Android, PC, and Mac from ANYWHERE regardless of home internet speed, status, etc. all for LESS than what Tivo costs.

Tivo WAS the premium, seamless, smooth, and best option, but NONE of those have even been maintained in the past 5 years. My Tivo Mini has become so unreliable that I have simply unplugged it, Tivo online is a joke, and the last time I tried to watch Tivo in my iPhone or IOS device, it didn't work at all, despite having a premium home router and enough tech skills to be successful in IT. And before people blame me for the technical failure, realize that to the average consumer THAT ALONE is the problem. This crap should just work, and when Comcast provides that ecosystem already while Tivo removes features, THAT is what is killing Tivo.


----------



## Fofer

JoeKustra said:


> If you use that option, please post if it takes effect. It used to indicate a desire to stop collecting use data. My status is still "Beta".


Mine too. How'd I get marked as beta? And how do I get off that list?


----------



## NorthAlabama

JoeKustra said:


> If you use that option, please post if it takes effect. It used to indicate a desire to stop collecting use data. My status is still "Beta".


same here, but no idea when the status changed, it used to say "opt-in."


----------



## slowbiscuit

mntvjunkie said:


> My Tivo Mini has become so unreliable that I have simply unplugged it


Why? If you say 'apps', there's your problem.


----------



## lessd

MrDell said:


> For what its worth... I just called to remove the pre-roll ads and was told that after 72 hours they will be gone and a software update will not bring them back. Time will tell!!! Maybe they tweaked their upgrade process to keep our ad-blocks in place... We can only hope!!!


Worked for me for the last month, updates did not bring back the ADs


----------



## Tony_T

lessd said:


> Worked for me for the last month, updates did not bring back the ADs


Are you getting "The Arrow"? 
(only lasts less than a sec, just curious, as I get the arrow but no ads)


----------



## MrDell

lessd said:


> Worked for me for the last month, updates did not bring back the ADs


That's great news!! Hopefully we can put this all behind us now!


----------



## MrDell

Tony_T said:


> Are you getting "The Arrow"?
> (only lasts less than a sec, just curious, as I get the arrow but no ads)


No ... the arrows disappeared along with the adds... I had to force a network connection and also did a restart.


----------



## mschnebly

slowbiscuit said:


> Why? If you say 'apps', there's your problem.


Like buying a new car and the radio barely works? Don't complain because that car was meant to be a transportation device, not a music studio. Makes sense.


----------



## Adam C.

mschnebly said:


> Like buying a new car and the radio barely works? Don't complain because that car was meant to be a transportation device, not a music studio. Makes sense.


Exactly. If you're going to spend $150 or more on a Mini, and Tivo states that the Mini supports apps, then there is a rightful expectation that those apps should work properly. I don't know why so many people give Tivo a free pass on this.


----------



## Fofer

App performance has been pathetically abysmal on every TiVo I have ever owned.

TiVo can’t even get its own app, TiVo+, working on my Mini.


----------



## Tony_T

The reason I give TiVo a pass on the Apps is that it's the content providers (Hulu, HBOgo, etc) that are responsible for building and updating the Apps — and they are way behind updating for Tivo (but not the other players: Roku, TV, etc). Also my Roku was a one-time cost of $25. I use the Tivo 1pass to track the streaming shows, but use Roku to watch them.


----------



## Adam C.

Fofer said:


> App performance has been pathetically abysmal on every TiVo I have ever owned.
> 
> TiVo can't even get its own app, TiVo+, working on my Mini.


On my Roamio OTA I used to have pretty good luck with the Netflix, Hulu, and Prime video apps. Ironically, after Tivo+ went live now all these apps crash my Roamio and force it into a reboot. So I have moved over exclusively to my Firestick for all streaming.


----------



## mntvjunkie

Tony_T said:


> The reason I give TiVo a pass on the Apps is that it's the content providers (Hulu, HBOgo, etc) that are responsible for building and updating the Apps - and they are way behind updating for Tivo (but not the other players: Roku, TV, etc). Also my Roku was a one-time cost of $25. I use the Tivo 1pass to track the streaming shows, but use Roku to watch them.


The reason that Tivo isn't getting the updates is because Tivo can't handle them. Having an app on the Tivo platform is just as much the responsibility of Tivo as it is the developers. NO developer will put money into putting an app on a platform that doesn't make them more money than the cost of the app. So, most companies in Tivo's position will PAY the developer to put the app on their platform. Only companies that have significant marketshare can get apps for free. (Microsoft Phones are a GREAT example, no major support outside of Microsoft, so Microsoft either developed their own, or paid Google, Netflix, etc to make an app for their platform).

If Tivo wants an app, Tivo will need to pay for one, period. Even Comcast doesn't get their apps for free. Netflix developed their app for Comcast because Comcast agreed to resell their services, unlocking a segment of the market that doesn't have a computer or doesn't want to sign up on one Other apps likely have a revenue sharing agreement with Comcast, or Comcast sees a benefit to pay for them to be developed to keep people in the Comcast ecosystem (probably more the latter, as the last thing they want is to have a customer go buy a Roku and realize that they can get the same programming for much cheaper.)


----------



## jcliff

Fofer said:


> Mine too. How'd I get marked as beta? And how do I get off that list?


If you call them and ask to be removed from Beta it'll bring the regular options back under "Change Privacy Status" when you view your TiVo account info on the website.

There doesn't seem to be any way to do it on our end.


----------



## jcliff

Tony_T said:


> I don't get ads, but do get the "Arrow" for less than a sec before each recording (If I blink I miss it )


If you remember early days of Hulu, you'd either see no ad/an ad for Hulu, or the same ad over and over and over.

So if they don't have a "buyer" for your viewership/in your area/for your viewership on that specific show? it'll just be blank for now. But that can always change.

I was getting the blank arrow, and then it started showing the same ad for Acorn TV over and over.

Which is kind of funny since I don't think there's any way to actually subscribe to it on TiVo. And the ad specifically has a Roku logo on it (among others).

Maybe via Amazon Prime?


----------



## Fofer

jcliff said:


> If you remember early days of Hulu, you'd either see no ad/an ad for Hulu, or *the same ad over and over and over.*


That's still the case with ad-supported Hulu. It's crazy.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Adam C. said:


> Exactly. If you're going to spend $150 or more on a Mini, and Tivo states that the Mini supports apps, then there is a rightful expectation that those apps should work properly. I don't know why so many people give Tivo a free pass on this.


Nobody's giving them a free pass about apps crapping out Minis, we're simply saying that Minis work great as Tivo extenders without apps. You are free to bash Tivo for this but it does not mean that Minis are unusable.

Beating your head against the wall to make a bad feature try to work is dumb.


----------



## tenthplanet

Fofer said:


> That's still the case with ad-supported Hulu. It's crazy.


Strange I haven't seen that on Hulu with ads in a least a year. The ads have gotten more mainstream with less public service spots, psa's were always the big repeaters in the past.


----------



## Adam C.

slowbiscuit said:


> You are free to bash Tivo for this but it does not mean that Minis are unusable.
> 
> Beating your head against the wall to make a bad feature try to work is dumb.


Slow down there, biscuit. I never said the Mini was unusable, nor did I say I was "beating my head against the wall". Not sure what your deal is but you're just making stuff up at this point.


----------



## saeba

jcliff said:


> Which is kind of funny since I don't think there's any way to actually subscribe to it on TiVo. And the ad specifically has a Roku logo on it (among others).
> 
> Maybe via Amazon Prime?


Yep. Both Acorn TV and BritBox TV are available as Amazon Prime Channels.


----------



## Fofer

FWIW is still haven’t seen any pre-roll ads on my Roamio Pro or Minis, all running Hydra. 

I’m guessing my posting of this will change that. 
But just saying. I haven’t had to “opt out,” yet.


----------



## Adam C.

Fofer said:


> FWIW is still haven't seen any pre-roll ads on my Roamio Pro or Minis, all running Hydra.
> 
> I'm guessing my posting of this will change that.
> But just saying. I haven't had to "opt out," yet.


Same here. Nothing on my Roamio OTA or minis yet. They said 90 days for the rollout which should be ending soon.


----------



## MrDell

Fofer said:


> FWIW is still haven't seen any pre-roll ads on my Roamio Pro or Minis, all running Hydra.
> 
> I'm guessing my posting of this will change that.
> But just saying. I haven't had to "opt out," yet.


 Geese.. you got me wondering.. do you think that TiVo suspended the adds because of all the negative feedback!! I called in to complain about three weeks ago and so far so good... they have not returned yet!


----------



## Fofer

Maybe they only rolled it out to Bolts and not Roamios? I dunno.


----------



## Podchain

Okay, remember how I said the pre-roll ads were no big deal? I said that in error. These ads are persistent, like a bad mole. I opted out over the phone with no issue, but man, they’ve gone a bit too far. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_m

No ads here on my roamio plus or mini yet either.


----------



## Saturn

So what's the trick to getting these disabled? I haven't had any luck via an online support ticket yet. What's the key words to use? Gray arrows? Slow to load? F-you-and-your-dying-company?


----------



## Podchain

Saturn said:


> So what's the trick to getting these disabled? I haven't had any luck via an online support ticket yet. What's the key words to use? Gray arrows? Slow to load? F-you-and-your-dying-company?


At first I asked to be opted out. The rep told me that I could skip them. I said that's not good enough. Honestly, I very loudly stated that my service is set to expire and there are other DVR's waiting to take my money. I pay annually. I also told her this idea is a joke. I had no problem with these ads when they were one a night. But now they are on every stupid show I watch.

On a side note, I did try blocking the domain others have suggested but it made my apps stop working. I use the YouTube app quite a bit so I unblocked the domain.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrDell

Saturn said:


> So what's the trick to getting these disabled? I haven't had any luck via an online support ticket yet. What's the key words to use? Gray arrows? Slow to load? F-you-and-your-dying-company?


I would definitely do it over the phone and be very firm and don't take no for an answer. Mention that your TiVo becomes unresponsive and you want the adds removed...


----------



## Mikeguy

MrDell said:


> I would definitely do it over the phone and be very firm and don't take no for an answer. *Mention that your TiVo becomes unresponsive *and you want the adds removed...


This seems to be a key and very helpful observation to make.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Podchain said:


> On a side note, I did try blocking the domain others have suggested but it made my apps stop working. I use the YouTube app quite a bit so I unblocked the domain.


Yea, doing it via my router(Netgear) gave me unintended results as well. The only reliable way I found was running Pi-Hole, since it doesn't actually block things but just doesn't resolve the address.

Not to get too off topic but honestly, I'm glad I now run Pi-Hole because beyond TiVo, it's amazing how many other hidden requests were being done by various other apps/programs/systems, that are now blocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## saeba

Blocking out the pre-roll ads was simple for me. Signed up for a free OpenDNS Home account (opendns.com). Setup my home router to point to OpenDNS servers (IPv4 addresses 208.67.222.222 and 208.67.220.220). As the router obtains its WAN address via DHCP, download and install OpenDNS updater on my PC to automatically keep this in sync on the OpenDNS side.

In OpenDNS, set the following domains for Web Content Filtering:
*ALWAYS BLOCK:*

adgwy.tivo.com
api.segment.com
cdn.segment.com
prod.adgwy.tivo.com
search.spotxchange.com
Pre-roll ads disappear and I haven't seen side effects on the TiVo side (apps still work, guide icons still appear, etc.).


----------



## Fofer

Thanks for that writeuo, saeba! Seems simple enough. If my box ever gets these pre-roll ads, I'll call TiVo and demand to be opted out. If that's not a permanent fix, I'll certainly go the OpenDNS route. Beyond that, pi-hole sounds like a great solution too, with even more utility.


----------



## saeba

Fofer said:


> Beyond that, pi-hole sounds like a great solution too, with even more utility.


OpenDNS can do more, this is just the bare requirements for blocking TiVo pre-roll ads. It has daily stats on network activity, unique domains, unique IPs, blocked domains and request types. You can setup filtering based around 55+ categories (gambling, nudity. adware, etc.). There are also paid levels with additional capabilities. You can sign-up for the free level and try it out.


----------



## DeltaOne

Fofer said:


> Beyond that, pi-hole sounds like a great solution too, with even more utility.


We've been running Pi-hole for about two years. Solved the problem of finding a good ad-blocker for our Macintosh web browsers. An additional benefit is it solves the ad problem for any smart phones and tablets on your home network too.

Occasionally I need to bypass Pi-hole for full functionality on a web site. Easily done via the Macintosh "Location" feature.

I just checked the Pi-hole dashboard...it's blocking 25.9% of the traffic intended for our devices. It's just amazing how much ad traffic is on the web these days.

One tip that wasn't apparent to us at first: We pointed the Pi-hole at a DNS server on the Internet. At the time we were using Google or OpenDNS, but now we use Cloudflare. Then we pointed our devices at Pi-hole. Some posts on a forum we follow pointed out that it's better to leave your router pointed at the DNS of your choice, then point the Pi-hole at your router. Then point your devices at the Pi-hole. I don't remember the technical explanation...but it made sense. So our set up is like this:

Router uses Cloudflare for DNS / Pi-hole uses our router for DNS / Devices (computers/tablets/smartphones) use Pi-hole.

When necessary, by-passing Pi-hole is easy...point the device at the router (as it normally would be).


----------



## kdmorse

DeltaOne said:


> One tip that wasn't apparent to us at first: We pointed the Pi-hole at a DNS server on the Internet. At the time we were using Google or OpenDNS, but now we use Cloudflare. Then we pointed our devices at Pi-hole. Some posts on a forum we follow pointed out that it's better to leave your router pointed at the DNS of your choice, then point the Pi-hole at your router. Then point your devices at the Pi-hole. I don't remember the technical explanation...but it made sense.


The main benefit is that if your router does any local dynamic dns (many do, autoregistering the names of DHCP clients), then pointing the PiHole at it preserves that. This may allow the names of the devices on your network to resolve when pointing the Pi around the router wouldn't. Some routers also do magical things with certain fake names, or do intergated traffic monitoring, both of which work better if they're in the chain.

Otherwise, depending on how things are set up, there could be performance benefits to the next dns stratum being in your home, but only if it's a full dns server, or has a better cache than the pi (which is unlikely)


----------



## DeltaOne

kdmorse said:


> The main benefit is...


Thanks!


----------



## Saturn

MrDell said:


> I would definitely do it over the phone and be very firm and don't take no for an answer. Mention that your TiVo becomes unresponsive and you want the adds removed...


It seems to take two requests. I responded via the e-mail support ticket basically saying they're slow, I know I can skip them but I don't want to have to do that, and can't you disable them from your side, and that seemed to work.


----------



## Chuck_IV

DeltaOne said:


> We've been running Pi-hole for about two years. Solved the problem of finding a good ad-blocker for our Macintosh web browsers. An additional benefit is it solves the ad problem for any smart phones and tablets on your home network too.
> 
> Occasionally I need to bypass Pi-hole for full functionality on a web site. Easily done via the Macintosh "Location" feature.
> 
> I just checked the Pi-hole dashboard...it's blocking 25.9% of the traffic intended for our devices. It's just amazing how much ad traffic is on the web these days.
> 
> One tip that wasn't apparent to us at first: We pointed the Pi-hole at a DNS server on the Internet. At the time we were using Google or OpenDNS, but now we use Cloudflare. Then we pointed our devices at Pi-hole. Some posts on a forum we follow pointed out that it's better to leave your router pointed at the DNS of your choice, then point the Pi-hole at your router. Then point your devices at the Pi-hole. I don't remember the technical explanation...but it made sense. So our set up is like this:
> 
> Router uses Cloudflare for DNS / Pi-hole uses our router for DNS / Devices (computers/tablets/smartphones) use Pi-hole.
> 
> When necessary, by-passing Pi-hole is easy...point the device at the router (as it normally would be).


I thought about doing something like this but then I need to maintain two devices at all times for my network to run(router and Pi-hole device). Just one more thing to worry about.

I actually have Pi-hole running on two devices, an old raspberry pi 3 and in a container on my QNAP file server. I use the raspberry as my first dns and the QNAP as my second dns and cloudfare as my third in my router settings. This makes it so if anything isn't caught by the first Pi-hole dns, it will be caught by the second one(and I do see things hit the QNAP one).

This also works better for me after a power failure since the QNAP servers take a good 10-15 minutes to boot and start all the services while the raspberry takes barely a minute.

This whole setup works very well to prevent the ads on TiVo(and other things).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jcliff

Saturn said:


> It seems to take two requests. I responded via the e-mail support ticket basically saying they're slow, I know I can skip them but I don't want to have to do that, and can't you disable them from your side, and that seemed to work.


For what it's worth, I called in multiple times last week to try and get this resolved.

The second agent was helpful and put in the requests, I could even see them in my account.

They said to give it a few days, and I don't know what they did but now it's worse.

I get a pre-roll ad on every recording and now the TiVo sometimes hard crashes even without accidentally launching TiVo+.

Some of my recordings are starting to fail, too.They'll be so blocky and stutter-y they're unwatchable. This is on three different Bolts one of which I only just received via the deal last week. Two on lifetime, one annual. I was definitely surprised at how little time it took the new TiVo Vox to hard crash/reset. As in literally within a few minutes of finishing the setup. Before TiVo+ that was definitely a rare occurrence for the 2 years I had a white bolt.

So basically I have no idea what's going on. Waiting until Monday just to make sure I can say I waited more than a few days, but if everything is still a mess after another week gonna just start over and wipe both and downgrade to TE3.


----------



## jcliff

saeba said:


> In OpenDNS, set the following domains for Web Content Filtering:
> *ALWAYS BLOCK:*
> 
> adgwy.tivo.com
> api.segment.com
> cdn.segment.com
> prod.adgwy.tivo.com
> search.spotxchange.com
> Pre-roll ads disappear and I haven't seen side effects on the TiVo side (apps still work, guide icons still appear, etc.).


Giving this a try. The only tricky part is I don't use Windows or a Mac, so I'll need to keep an eye on when my IP changes. But I like how straightforward it is compared to setting up Pi-Hole.



Chuck_IV said:


> I actually have Pi-hole running on two devices, an old raspberry pi 3 and in a container on my QNAP file server. I use the raspberry as my first dns and the QNAP as my second dns and cloudfare as my third in my router settings. This makes it so if anything isn't caught by the first Pi-hole dns, it will be caught by the second one(and I do see things hit the QNAP one).


Are you using Container Station for the QNAP setup?


----------



## saeba

jcliff said:


> Giving this a try. The only tricky part is I don't use Windows or a Mac, so I'll need to keep an eye on when my IP changes. But I like how straightforward it is compared to setting up Pi-Hole.


Doing a google search on "OpenDNS updater", it appears there also a version for Linux. Are you running any desktop system?


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> Are you using Container Station for the QNAP setup?


Yes. Look further back in this thread for a post I made(post 1737). I linked the guide on the QNAP forums that I followed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jcliff

So far the OpenDNS thing is working great.

Setup the OpenDNS account. Blocked those domains. Entered the OpenDNS IPs via:

Settings->Network Settings->Change Network Settings->IP Address->Specify a static IP address (If you use this option you'll need to assign your device a static IP via your router).

The only oddity I've noticed is that the Apps page has a weird delay sometimes, where it will appear to be blank. Maybe before you access it the box tries to call home for some analytics reasons?

Similarly, I wasn't able to see my other TiVo device on the network initially.

The ribbons in the guide are gone too. You still lose a menu shortcut to TiVo+, but that seems negligible to have a more stable device.



saeba said:


> Doing a google search on "OpenDNS updater", it appears there also a version for Linux. Are you running any desktop system?


I've been using a Chromebook as my main device, but I bet I can fire that up via a Linux container. Thanks!



Chuck_IV said:


> Yes. Look further back in this thread for a post I made(post 1737). I linked the guide on the QNAP forums that I followed.


Much appreciated!


----------



## Podchain

saeba said:


> Blocking out the pre-roll ads was simple for me. Signed up for a free OpenDNS Home account (opendns.com). Setup my home router to point to OpenDNS servers (IPv4 addresses 208.67.222.222 and 208.67.220.220). As the router obtains its WAN address via DHCP, download and install OpenDNS updater on my PC to automatically keep this in sync on the OpenDNS side.
> 
> In OpenDNS, set the following domains for Web Content Filtering:
> *ALWAYS BLOCK:*
> 
> adgwy.tivo.com
> api.segment.com
> cdn.segment.com
> prod.adgwy.tivo.com
> search.spotxchange.com
> Pre-roll ads disappear and I haven't seen side effects on the TiVo side (apps still work, guide icons still appear, etc.).


Somebody make this person a saint because this worked amazingly. Even though I opted out, I set this up anyway. Switched over my DNS, blocked these domains, and BOOM...gone. I don't even see the Tivo+ guide garbage. Now to set this up at my parents.


----------



## jcliff

Podchain said:


> Somebody make this person a saint because this worked amazingly. Even though I opted out, I set this up anyway. Switched over my DNS, blocked these domains, and BOOM...gone. I don't even see the Tivo+ guide garbage. Now to set this up at my parents.


I spoke too soon. On my Bolt Vox the TiVo+ stuff is gone, but I rebooted my regular Bolt and the guide ribbons are back. But at least the prerolls seem to be blocked.

Maybe it gets cached somehow? Tempted to reset the device.

Is there a way to opt out if you accidentally opted in already?


----------



## Podchain

jcliff said:


> I spoke too soon. On my Bolt Vox the TiVo+ stuff is gone, but I rebooted my regular Bolt and the guide ribbons are back. But at least the prerolls seem to be blocked.
> 
> Maybe it gets cached somehow? Tempted to reset the device.
> 
> Is there a way to opt out if you accidentally opted in already?


Could your Bolt be connecting via IPV6? I noticed that this method only works on IPV4. Also, while my Bolt Vox just worked, my Mini Vox did require a reboot. After two reboots, the TiVo+ did disappear on the Mini.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tony_T

Tony_T said:


> I don't get ads, but do get the "Arrow" for less than a sec before each recording (If I blink I miss it )


I called (chatted) TiVo and requested the opt-out (even though I never got any pre-roll ads, just the "Arrow" ). 
Three days later, no more ➡


----------



## jcliff

Podchain said:


> Could your Bolt be connecting via IPV6? I noticed that this method only works on IPV4. Also, while my Bolt Vox just worked, my Mini Vox did require a reboot. After two reboots, the TiVo+ did disappear on the Mini.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disabled IPV6 via my router, but I double-checked it to be sure.

Interestingly, the ribbons are still there but the art is gone. The home menu "what to watch" ribbon and apps are also now missing their art.

Kind of interesting since the Bolt Vox isn't behaving the same way.


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> I spoke too soon. On my Bolt Vox the TiVo+ stuff is gone, but I rebooted my regular Bolt and the guide ribbons are back. But at least the prerolls seem to be blocked.
> 
> Maybe it gets cached somehow? Tempted to reset the device.
> 
> Is there a way to opt out if you accidentally opted in already?


You have to block mm1.tivoservice.com then reboot your TiVo's. Once they have rebooted, unblock that site to get your guide logos back.

Every time you reboot you TiVo's, if mm1.tivoservice.com isn't in the block list, it will put the ad intrusions back into the guide.

I just have it blocked all the time in PiHole. I know TiVo will keep trying to access that site every 10 seconds or so, but it's easier to leaving it blocked in case of an overnight reboot. If I don't see guide logos I just unblock the site for about a minute to get the logos back and reblock it. Otherwise, I'd have to reboot the box a second time to get everything straight.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jcliff

So, fun stuff.

Even blocking the mm1, the ribbons stayed in my guide.

However, I did discover that blocking this stuff can interfere with your TTG functionality, if you like to transfer/download/use a program like KMTTG to transfer non-DRMed shows.

I spent hours trying to figure out why suddenly KMTTG was claiming ALL my OTA stuff was DRMed. Turns out that if your boxes can't connect to TiVo, they disable that functionality. So you have to unblock everything and go back into your account and re-enable downloading/sharing:

Login Template Title

Which means you may also have to adjust your TiVo privacy settings:

Login Template Title

Because your preferences can't be updated if you've "opted out" of tracking/advertising.

I made the mistake of initially accepting the TiVo+ ToS, so maybe that has an effect of why it seems more persistent on one device compared to the other.

I'm going to call TiVo back and try and ask that the ads be removed again, since they never went away as stated. Humorously the last time I was trying to describe how TiVo+ crashes the device it happened while I was on the phone with the agent (they apparently can't see any logs though, since I was hoping that would prove the trouble I'm having).

If the next call doesn't resolve anything, I'll go back to TE3. It was fun for a brief moment to mess around with this stuff, but it's definitely entering more trouble than it's worth territory now.

One thing I did discover is that the TiVo+ content is provided by Xumo, so blocking the xumo.com domain at least keeps TiVo+ from launching, although it doesn't affect the ads or guide. But if you're like me and accidentally starting the TiVo+ channels from the guide leads to a hard reset, it may be worth avoiding that, at least.


----------



## exdishguy

"If the next call doesn't resolve anything, I'll go back to TE3."

Two words: Serenity. Now.


----------



## BillBB

I saw these ads showing up last week for me. Mentioned to my wife that something funny was going on. Finally did a Google search tonight and discovered my worst fear. Tivo is now screwing us.

I've bought TIVO recorders for myself for over 20 years. Even bought one for three daughters and two for another one. But NEVER AGAIN. I just purchased a new BOLT earlier this summer. If I had know that they were including these obnoxious ads with it, I would have not done so.

One of the earliest pillars of strengths of TIVO was that they offered a fantastic feature for users to SKIP advertising!!!! Such a cool idea and so far ahead of it's time. But now, it appears that they have gone back on their respect for their customers. (Remember another HiTech company saying "do no harm"?).... I will begin researching how to replace my TIVO box tonight. I will NOT stand for this blatant switch-and-bait tactic.


----------



## Mikeguy

BillBB said:


> I saw these ads showing up last week for me. Mentioned to my wife that something funny was going on. Finally did a Google search tonight and discovered my worst fear. Tivo is now screwing us.
> 
> I've bought TIVO recorders for myself for over 20 years. Even bought one for three daughters and two for another one. But NEVER AGAIN. I just purchased a new BOLT earlier this summer. If I had know that they were including these obnoxious ads with it, I would have not done so.
> 
> One of the earliest pillars of strengths of TIVO was that they offered a fantastic feature for users to SKIP advertising!!!! Such a cool idea and so far ahead of it's time. But now, it appears that they have gone back on their respect for their customers. (Remember another HiTech company saying "do no harm"?).... I will begin researching how to replace my TIVO box tonight. I will NOT stand for this blatant switch-and-bait tactic.


If of interest: sidegrading to the TE3 user interface (the one that you were used to for years) automatically deletes the advertising (both the pre-roll ads and the Guide listing). Also, as you may have seen, you can telephone TiVo customer support and request to have the pre-roll ads dropped from your boxes.


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> So, fun stuff.
> 
> Even blocking the mm1, the ribbons stayed in my guide.
> 
> However, I did discover that blocking this stuff can interfere with your TTG functionality, if you like to transfer/download/use a program like KMTTG to transfer non-DRMed shows.
> 
> I spent hours trying to figure out why suddenly KMTTG was claiming ALL my OTA stuff was DRMed. Turns out that if your boxes can't connect to TiVo, they disable that functionality. So you have to unblock everything and go back into your account and re-enable downloading/sharing.


I haven't had issues downloading as all recordings show as unprotected when they are supposed to. However, keeping mm1.tivoservice.com blocked prevents search from working. So I removed it from the block list after rebooting.

As for the ads showing up, I had issues blocking the sites via my router. The only way I was able to remove them was to run PiHole. Others have said they can do it with OpenDNS. I think it's because PiHole and OpenDNS don't actually block it but just don't resolve the DNS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jcliff

Chuck_IV said:


> I haven't had issues downloading as all recordings show as unprotected when they are supposed to. However, keeping mm1.tivoservice.com blocked prevents search from working. So I removed it from the block list after rebooting.
> 
> As for the ads showing up, I had issues blocking the sites via my router. The only way I was able to remove them was to run PiHole. Others have said they can do it with OpenDNS. I think it's because PiHole and OpenDNS don't actually block it but just don't resolve the DNS.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was using OpenDNS. Leaving the domains mentioned earlier in the thread blocked (even though I unblocked mm1 after rebooting) resulted in the TiVo settings for sharing/downloading on my account being toggled off.

To be clear, I'm referring to this:









Through no action (via my account settings) on my part, after setting up the domain blocking via OpenDNS every single checkbox on the device preferences page was unchecked. Which is why it took me so long to troubleshoot. It didn't occur to me that they would automatically change your account preferences under the right circumstances.

If those settings aren't enabled, it can result in kmttg thinking all your recordings are copy protected. So I had to disable blocking those domains to get that functionality back. That's what I mean when I said I think if it can't contact the mothership, TiVo seems to be able to disrupt other parts of the service like TTG.

For me, it's just not worth doing the dance of blocking/unblocking a domain at random times.

However, I also think there may be a lot of correlation not causation happening as we all try and find ways to block TiVo+.

Currently I have nothing blocked. After my last call to TiVo earlier today, the ribbons in the guide AND preroll ads are now gone. So for those of us who have made calls to TiVo support the pre-roll+guide ribbons disappearing may just be a coincidence and not related to whatever we did.

Blocking some combination of:

adgwy.tivo.com
segment.com
spotxchange.com
xumo.com
Does seem to disable the pre-roll ads and TiVo+ itself. BUT, for me, it never blocked the ribbons in the guide.

There's a random cloudfront address that displays the redirect "arrow" you see before a recording (don't block it, you'll end up in a weird situation where you don't see a commercial, but you also can't advance to your recording. You have to TiVo button out of the screen.)

The TiVo+ content itself seems to be provided via xumo.com.

mm1.tivoservice.com can block the ribbons in the guide, but if you're not careful it blocks other more useful services too.

Then there's adgwy.tivo.com, segment.com, and spotxchange.com, which together seem to provide the actual ads & analytics for the pre-roll.

Interestingly, if you're blocking the pre-roll ads but not xumo.com, TiVo+ can still be launched, and the ads within that content display fine. I guess they must be served via xumo.com itself.

If I were to give someone advice who hadn't tried any of the steps, it would be:

1. Call TiVo support and ask to have the pre-roll ads and TiVo+ ribbons disabled. TiVo+ is a mess. The ads are annoying, and it really does seem to make the entire device more unstable. I've had no random lockups/resets since the pre-roll and guide ribbons were disabled. Before, accidentally launching TiVo+ via the guide was frequently causing my device to hard reboot.

2. If TiVo customer support tells you they'll disable the pre-roll, they might say 2-3 days. But for me it took three calls and a week. So if you're the patient type, wait at least that long.

3. If you have the patience/knowledge for it, try blocking domains via pi-hole or OpenDNS. But pay attention to what Chuck said about unblocking mm1 after reboots. That didn't work for me, but it seems to be working for Chuck/other folks. Otherwise...

4. Downgrade to TE3. Who knows, maybe in six months TiVo+ will still be annoying, but at least not unstable, and you can try TE4 again.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

I get ads about 70% of the time -- dont get every time.


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> I was using OpenDNS. Leaving the domains mentioned earlier in the thread blocked (even though I unblocked mm1 after rebooting) resulted in the TiVo settings for sharing/downloading on my account being toggled off.


The only thing that has really worked for me is PiHole. I tried OpenDNS at one point but I couldn't get it to really work, but others have.

If you can, I would try PiHole and see how it goes. Besides TiVo, I am amazed at how much other junk queries are blocked from various other apps/sites.

It will be a permanent part of our network, even when TiVo is long gone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> If you can, I would try PiHole and see how it goes. Besides TiVo, I am amazed at how much other junk queries are blocked from various other apps/sites.
> 
> It will be a permanent part of our network, even when TiVo is long gone.


I agree. Worse case for $50 (or so) for a Raspberry Pi you get to stop 10-40% of your Internet traffic and speed up your devices accordingly. Based on my surfing I average around 25% and it runs on my ODROID file server as another app... along with a half dozen or so others.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

BillBB said:


> I saw these ads showing up last week for me. Mentioned to my wife that something funny was going on. Finally did a Google search tonight and discovered my worst fear. Tivo is now screwing us.
> 
> I've bought TIVO recorders for myself for over 20 years. Even bought one for three daughters and two for another one. But NEVER AGAIN. I just purchased a new BOLT earlier this summer. If I had know that they were including these obnoxious ads with it, I would have not done so.
> 
> One of the earliest pillars of strengths of TIVO was that they offered a fantastic feature for users to SKIP advertising!!!! Such a cool idea and so far ahead of it's time. But now, it appears that they have gone back on their respect for their customers. (Remember another HiTech company saying "do no harm"?).... I will begin researching how to replace my TIVO box tonight. I will NOT stand for this blatant switch-and-bait tactic.





Mikeguy said:


> If of interest: sidegrading to the TE3 user interface (the one that you were used to for years) automatically deletes the advertising (both the pre-roll ads and the Guide listing). Also, as you may have seen, you can telephone TiVo customer support and request to have the pre-roll ads dropped from your boxes.


I second the suggestion of TE3. Lucky you last bought a Bolt, and not an Edge which can't be down/sidegraded. The process unfortunately deletes saved shows, but is otherwise straightforward. The instructions in this thread work for your Bolt too, not just a Roamio: How to Rollback Hydra from Roamio and Mini's v1

But maybe it's time to move on, yes? You're not the only one seeking alternatives. We're still on TE3 here, but in parallel we're testing Channels DVR with OTA and TVE now, probably cable soon, and maybe YouTube TV or Hulu Live TV. You'll find discussion of all that and more here: TiVo Alternatives?

If you stay with TE4 you can roll the dice on opting out of the pre-rolls, though even if that works you'd still have the Guide ads. The more deeply techie options described here would probably be too difficult to deploy for your entire family. They'd find it far easier to switch to something like Channels DVR.


----------



## Charles R

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The more deeply techie options described here would probably be too difficult to deploy for your entire family.


In reality (blocking ads) the "family" would do/see nothing different. They wouldn't even know something had changed outside of not seeing x number of ads. Nothing to configure per user... simply update your router's DNS and you're done.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Charles R said:


> In reality (blocking ads) the "family" would do/see nothing different. They wouldn't even know something had changed outside of not seeing x number of ads. Nothing to configure per user... simply update your router's DNS and you're done.


I believe his daughters are living on their own now. If I misunderstood we should revisit. But even then, hey I do this stuff all the time, but most people's eyes glaze over if I even mention "router" or "DNS" in a sentence.


----------



## Charles R

Pokemon_Dad said:


> But even then, hey I do this stuff all the time, but most people's eyes glaze over if I even mention "router" or "DNS" in a sentence.


That's the point... you configure it and you never have to touch their devices or mention router, DNS or anything else to them. Sure an ad blocker isn't for everyone... but being "complex" in most cases isn't a reason to pass.


----------



## Huzordaddy

I called twice to Tivo support to get the pre-roll ads removed. The first time the CSR said I'm not even receiving them yet but she would note it in my account that I wanted them removed. Of course I was already receiving the ads and nothing stopped.
The second time they said they could see the note from the first call and would take care of it to remove the ads.
Weeks later I still have the pre-roll ads.

And Tivo+ is just awful too.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Charles R said:


> That's the point... you configure it and you never have to touch their devices or mention router, DNS or anything else to them. Sure an ad blocker isn't for everyone... but being "complex" in most cases isn't a reason to pass.


Until TiVo changes something and one of those needs to be unblocked at least temporarily, and/or another needs to be blocked, but he can't get over to their houses to do it and their TiVo doesn't work right that weekend... Personally I might still do it, but just saying.


----------



## Beryl

Huzordaddy said:


> I called twice to Tivo support to get the pre-roll ads removed. The first time the CSR said I'm not even receiving them yet but she would note it in my account that I wanted them removed. Of course I was already receiving the ads and nothing stopped.
> The second time they said they could see the note from the first call and would take care of it to remove the ads.
> Weeks later I still have the pre-roll ads.
> 
> And Tivo+ is just awful too.


Gotta ask - did you connect to their service and reboot? That is why my fix was delayed.


----------



## Charles R

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Until TiVo changes something and one of those needs to be unblocked at least temporarily, and/or another needs to be blocked, but he can't get over to their houses to do it and their TiVo doesn't work right that weekend...


Ever hear of remote access... worse case one click of the mouse locally/remotely and it's disabled. Again the point is it's not difficult for those following along. I never actually addressed one use case... I'm sure they know what's better suited for themselves than I ever would.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Charles R said:


> Ever hear of remote access... worse case one click of the mouse locally/remotely and it's disabled. Again the point is it's not difficult for those following along. I never actually addressed one use case... I'm sure they know what's better suited for themselves than I ever would.


Yup, I have heard of it and might do it, if we were on TE4. But you and I are not typical, and my impression is that needing to do anything of the sort will further infuriate the OP. A consumer ought to be able to just plug a box in and have it work. And when that box is sold based on a longstanding reputation for enabling easy control of home entertainment including commercial FF or skip, well then that ought to just work too.


----------



## ManeJon

Apparently DirecTV is now putting ads on when you pause a show that plays until you un-pause. So another vendor is adding ways to irritate their customers.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, DirecTV is the worst on this front, they also have ads on their home screen, their guide, and their screensaver!


----------



## jcliff

ManeJon said:


> Apparently DirecTV is now putting ads on when you pause a show that plays until you un-pause. So another vendor is adding ways to irritate their customers.


That sounds awful. I remember having to sell DirecTV in an area that rained a lot. The demo unit was static half the time. Long time ago though, so maybe the tech has improved.



Chuck_IV said:


> The only thing that has really worked for me is PiHole. I tried OpenDNS at one point but I couldn't get it to really work, but others have.
> 
> If you can, I would try PiHole and see how it goes. Besides TiVo, I am amazed at how much other junk queries are blocked from various other apps/sites.
> 
> It will be a permanent part of our network, even when TiVo is long gone.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Finally setup PiHole, we'll see how it goes! I'm definitely amazed at how much traffic ad servers and tracking servers take up.


----------



## Adam C.

I never got the pre-roll ads on my Roamio OTA. But I called support yesterday to complain about the Tivo+ banner ads in the guide. They told me it would be no problem removing the banner ads from the guide but also mentioned pre-roll ads which I don't even have. Has anyone had the banner ads removed by Tivo?


----------



## jcliff

Adam C. said:


> I never got the pre-roll ads on my Roamio OTA. But I called support yesterday to complain about the Tivo+ banner ads in the guide. They told me it would be no problem removing the banner ads from the guide but also mentioned pre-roll ads which I don't even have. Has anyone had the banner ads removed by Tivo?


I went through the whole song and dance. Initially it worked, banners were gone, ads didn't pre-roll.

But recently the guide ribbons/banners came back. I'd guess the customer service folks are doing the best without being provided the tools they need, so whatever they're doing doesn't seem to be permanent.

I also seem to have been unluckier than a lot of other folks here, so there's no real harm in trying.

So far pre-roll ads are still gone, but what a mess. The ribbons are slightly less annoying if you disable channel logos completely.

On one Bolt I gave up and downgraded to TE3. Bonus side effect: transfers work again, before nothing would ever happen when both devices were on TE4.


----------



## Chuck_IV

So not sure if the schmucks at TiVo have gotten wise of the pre roll blocking but on my Bolt(the only one that has pre rolls), now when I try to play a recording for the first time, I get a Netgear generates screen that says “Website Blocked By Netgear Firewall” and I get stuck and have to use the list button to get out. 

Now this is weird because my setup is a Netgear R9000 running DD-WRT and NOT Netgear’s firmware. My DHCP is being done by PiHole and basically my router forwards everything to it. The site I block in PiHole are the 4 listed way back when.

Even when I completely disable PiHole, I still get that message(even after rebooting) so I have no idea what is still causing the router to do a block and how to fix it. It seems like the router has some type of internal blocking going on. 

On a side note, if the video was started elsewhere, I can watch it on the Bolt. 

**EDIT**
I think the box is storing cookies somewhere and it just sees the cookie and assumes it is blocked(I did at one time block the website on my router but that was even before changing to DD-WRT). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Flashmasta

Chuck_IV said:


> So not sure if the schmucks at TiVo have gotten wise of the pre roll blocking but on my Bolt(the only one that has pre rolls), now when I try to play a recording for the first time, I get a Netgear generates screen that says "Website Blocked By Netgear Firewall" and I get stuck and have to use the list button to get out.
> 
> Now this is weird because my setup is a Netgear R9000 running DD-WRT and NOT Netgear's firmware. My DHCP is being done by PiHole and basically my router forwards everything to it. The site I block in PiHole are the 4 listed way back when.
> 
> Even when I completely disable PiHole, I still get that message(even after rebooting) so I have no idea what is still causing the router to do a block and how to fix it. It seems like the router has some type of internal blocking going on.
> 
> On a side note, if the video was started elsewhere, I can watch it on the Bolt.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the blocking needs to be done via DNS, it doesn't involve DHCP. DHCP is just a function of handing out IP addresses. You need to make sure you are using your pihole as the primary DNS server in your router, otherwise the pihole isn't doing anything.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Flashmasta said:


> the blocking needs to be done via DNS, it doesn't involve DHCP. DHCP is just a function of handing out IP addresses. You need to make sure you are using your pihole as the primary DNS server in your router, otherwise the pihole isn't doing anything.


I am. The TiVo box shows my PiHole as the only DNS in the network settings.

It saw a post from way back when about a person having the same issue and it turned out to be a cookie that was stored on, in his case, Chrome. Once he cleared the cookie he was good.

I think that the TiVo box may be storing cookies somehow too cause my firmware is DD-WRT now and it should not be showing that screen even if the router were blocking it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck_IV

Replying to myself, yes the bolt has some type of cookie stored on the box for my Ethernet hardwire connection. 

I unplugged and connected wirelessly and now the Bolt works normally, playing all recordings just fine. If I plug the Ethernet cable back in, it shows the blocked message again. (The wireless and wired connection are using the same ip address).

Wondering if anyone out there knows a way to clear the cookies off the Bolt without doing a full reset. 

**EDIT**
So now it is blocking the wireless too. I cannot figure out why I am getting this screen. Tow red bars one at top and bottom and then the message in the middle about the block


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> I unplugged and connected wirelessly and now the Bolt works normally, playing all recordings just fine. If I plug the Ethernet cable back in, it shows the blocked message again. (The wireless and wired connection are using the same ip address).
> 
> Wondering if anyone out there knows a way to clear the cookies off the Bolt without doing a full reset.


First blush I don't think it is Bolt related... I'd reboot the router for starters. Also try pinging the "blocked" domains from your PC and see if they are reachable (hopefully they haven't configured the server(s) to not answer so it's a valid test). You can go from there based on the results...


----------



## jcliff

Charles R said:


> First blush I don't think it is Bolt related... I'd reboot the router for starters. Also try pinging the "blocked" domains from your PC and see if they are reachable (hopefully they haven't configured the server(s) to not answer so it's a valid test). You can go from there based on the results...


Also, does it happen if you skip the router entirely and connect directly to the cable modem/ethernet/internet jack?

I was getting a similar message when I blocked the Cloudflare arrow page. Do you see the arrow, or does it go straight to the message about a firewall? Some blocklists may overactively block things as well.

If all else fails there's always the 30-30-30 DD-WRT reset, although it's a pain to setup your settings again (but you can always export them first).


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> Also, does it happen if you skip the router entirely and connect directly to the cable modem/ethernet/internet jack?
> 
> I was getting a similar message when I blocked the Cloudflare arrow page. Do you see the arrow, or does it go straight to the message about a firewall? Some blocklists may overactively block things as well.
> 
> If all else fails there's always the 30-30-30 DD-WRT reset, although it's a pain to setup your settings again (but you can always export them first).


I have an old Asus router that I may connect in place of the Netgear to see if I still get the issue. Either that or if I can find a long enough Ethernet cable to run from my modem to the Tivo(I may have a 50 ft one that I can use) I'll try that.

This issue started when I was on the Netgear firmware and that's when I changed to DD-WRT(was planning to anyway). Yet the same message persisted even after the change. That's what led me to think it's some type of cookie but then the wireless initially worked and but it started showing the same message, so I dunno now.

May have to wait till Tuesday though.

The work around we are using is to start the recording on another device and then go to the bolt and it will work fine(because it doesn't try to hit the ad site).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bw Squirrel

I went on Tivo and used the chat. I asked how do I opt out? Service rep said you can ff through it. I asked how do I opted out entirely. Said i would be removed, it would be resolved in 72hrs. I’ll let you know


----------



## jcliff

I have to admit, I think the sorting options for seasons/shows/movies are better on TE4. A lot more customizable.

Everything else on TE3 so far I can live with, even the "blip" when you switch from a show you're watching to the menu. And having the transfer feature back and working is going to make downgrading the other box a lot simpler.

I forgot how much I liked the old style "box set" and collections recommendations. Some pre-existing ones carried over to TE4, and weirdly they kept recording but I couldn't edit or delete them.

Bringing the guide banners back even after multiple phone calls to remove them was the dealbreaker, as I don't want to have to call them up repeatedly. Initially they were removed, but then a few days later they came back. On both boxes.

Another bonus is that my devices can see each other on the network a LOT more consistently now. With TE4 I found myself constantly restarting the boxes when I wanted to stream to my bedroom.

Kind of a shame, because overall I liked TE4. Or maybe I just got used to it, but I'll take functionality over form any day.


----------



## mlsnyc

I have the grey screen with the arrows, but the pre-roll ads don't start. Recordings would be stuck in that screen forever if I don't fast forward through it.

I called the support desk and requested to be opted out. The person I spoke to said there's an option to ff through it but acknowledged without me telling him that I wanted them removed altogether. Ticket has been submitted and I'm told in 3 days they'll fulfill the request and I'll receive an email with instructions on how to permanently remove the ads. I think I saw in one of the million threads about this that I'll need to run guided setup twice and reboot or something like that for the change to take effect.

This is very crappy Customer Experience. Once you get past the sleaziness of putting ads in recordings in the first place, the design, implementation, and rollout of this "feature" is just plain awful.


----------



## Chuck_IV

jcliff said:


> Also, does it happen if you skip the router entirely and connect directly to the cable modem/ethernet/internet jack?


So the answer to this is unfortunately YES. I ran a line directly from my cable modem to the Bolt, restarted both the cable modem and the Bolt. It showed as online with the ip of my cable company and all internet functions worked.

I hit the play on an I watched episode and up came the Netgear blocked site message. This tells me there is some kind of internal cookie that it is seeing when trying to go to the ad site.

If I completely disconnect the internet from the Bolt, the recording start without issue because it doesn't attempt to hit the ad site.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> I hit the play on an I watched episode and up came the Netgear blocked site message.


Have you gone into the TiVo and changed (updated) the DNS? It might force TiVo to resolve the IP address (again) and perhaps refresh the "cookie" I know you switched to wireless and it worked for a bit although DNS probably remained the same.


----------



## Chuck_IV

The DNS was that of my cable company when I connected the cable modem directly to it. It has been 192.168.1.1(router) and 192.168.1.200(PiHole). So it has been several different DNS servers. None change anything. 

I even did a guided setup again to see if that help but nope.

Gonna have to call them and try to get them to stop the ads via customer service cause as it stands, Incant watch anything that hasn’t been started already. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Chuck_IV said:


> Gonna have to call them and try to get them to stop the ads via customer service cause as it stands, Incant watch anything that hasn't been started already.


It's an odd issue. if I remember (right) you have multiple TiVos? I'd probably transfer any recordings (you care about) and do a clear & delete everything. I believe it uses a different partition so surely you would be good to go afterwards...


----------



## kdmorse

Chuck_IV said:


> I hit the play on an I watched episode and up came the Netgear blocked site message. This tells me there is some kind of internal cookie that it is seeing when trying to go to the ad site.


Can you post a picture of it? It might help us guess where it's coming from.


----------



## Chuck_IV

kdmorse said:


> Can you post a picture of it? It might help us guess where it's coming from.


Took this from another site but it's what I see on the TiVo...











Charles R said:


> It's an odd issue. if I remember (right) you have multiple TiVos? I'd probably transfer any recordings (you care about) and do a clear & delete everything. I believe it uses a different partition so surely you would be good to go afterwards...


What's the best way to move the recordings these days? I used to be able to do it right on the program options but not with TE4.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Chuck_IV said:


> What's the best way to move the recordings these days? I used to be able to do it right on the program options but not with TE4.


TiVo Online.


----------



## Mikeguy

(In fact, that's the _only_ way.)


----------



## jcliff

Pokemon_Dad said:


> TiVo Online.


FWIW, I wasn't able to transfer at all until I downgraded at least one device to TE3, using two Bolts on TE4.

I think you're right. TiVo must have a cookie or caches that specific page (the cloudflare page with the random numbers/letters).

When I was blocking that page, I got the equivalent of the error page you're seeing on my TiVo as well. If you find that address in Pi-Hole and try visiting it, it's literally just a page with an arrow on it (such a weird way to do that. Analytics? Hence why it tries to contact the live page?)

I seem to have been lucky though. I disabled Pi-Hole blocking Cloudflare at that address. Unplugged everything and let it sit. Plugged back in and I saw the arrow again as expected.

Fingers crossed for you that it'll clear up for you too.


----------



## Chuck_IV

The transfers seem to have worked as I can see the programs I transferred from my Bolt now on my other TiVo. 

However, it seems like it is doing a copy rather than an actual transfer(move) as the programs still also reside on the Bolt. 

Just need to verify with the family that I transferred everything we want to keep and I’ll do a clear and delete everything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

Chuck_IV said:


> The transfers seem to have worked as I can see the programs I transferred from my Bolt now on my other TiVo.
> 
> However, it seems like it is doing a copy rather than an actual transfer(move) as the programs still also reside on the Bolt.


That's the standard TiVo "transfer" process--it's really a copying over.


----------



## bobfrank

Chuck_IV said:


> Took this from another site but it's what I see on the TiVo...
> View attachment 45193
> 
> 
> *What's the best way to move the recordings these days?* I used to be able to do it right on the program options but not with TE4.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The best way is to upgrade to TE3 and forget TE4.


----------



## pldoolittle

mntvjunkie said:


> "People like me" aren't the reason Tivo isn't staying afloat. I'm a long time Tivo user, having bought my original Phillips S1 in 2001, and have owned several Tivo's and sold several Tivo's. Tivo is killing Tivo by suing instead of innovating, and introducing "features" to it's platform that go against what the company sold for the past 20 years. The Tivo of today isn't even the Tivo of 5 years ago, let alone 20. And while Tivo is becoming LESS consumer friendly and innovative, Comcast is becoming MORE innovative and consumer friendly, offering cloud DVR, seamless on-demand integration, the ability to watch TROUBLE FREE from iPad, iPhone, Android, PC, and Mac from ANYWHERE regardless of home internet speed, status, etc. all for LESS than what Tivo costs.
> 
> Tivo WAS the premium, seamless, smooth, and best option, but NONE of those have even been maintained in the past 5 years. My Tivo Mini has become so unreliable that I have simply unplugged it, Tivo online is a joke, and the last time I tried to watch Tivo in my iPhone or IOS device, it didn't work at all, despite having a premium home router and enough tech skills to be successful in IT. And before people blame me for the technical failure, realize that to the average consumer THAT ALONE is the problem. This crap should just work, and when Comcast provides that ecosystem already while Tivo removes features, THAT is what is killing Tivo.


Well said.

Too many people forget that in the "old days" TiVo supported it's customers to the point that we (the community) reciprocated by voluntarily refraining from hacking their device beyond what TiVo was comfortable with. And this included not obtaining free service.

Sadly, that symbiotic relationship doesn't exist anymore.


----------



## Beryl

I don’t have a problem with TiVo pre-roll ads. They just did it wrong. They can charge less to those willing to tolerate them (or more to those who cannot). They can even offer a cheaper lifetime service with ads. 

People who hate ads will pay more like they do with CBSAA and ad-free Hulu. That’s fair. 

What isn’t fair is putting these ads on devices with lifetime service. We shouldn’t have these ads added to recordings without compensation.


----------



## Fofer

And we shouldn’t have to call in and ask (and sometimes ask again) to opt out. There should be a menu setting for this. Anything less is user-hostile.


----------



## leiff

I was able to get the pre roll ads removed by calling Tivo. I also no longer get the screen delay screen with the forward arrow scree when starting my recordings. Thank goodness for that. Has anyone been able to get tivo to remove the tivo + banner on the channel guide screen?


----------



## Fofer

No, not officially via TiVo at least. There’s a thread or two discussing it and some folks have had success with configuring Pi-Hole or router settings on their own network in order to block them. There are posts earlier in this thread too that covers it.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Sometimes when i scroll thru the program guide ill be on say 570 but then it just scrolls back to say 502 all by itself.
Does anyone get this too ??


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Bueller ??


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Bueller 2 ??
Anyways i havent seen an ad in 2 wks - never called or did anything.


----------



## hairyblue

Tivo sent me a survey the other day. I told them how much I hated the ads they want to force on me. Anyone else get a survey?

It was heavy on apps questions and what other streaming devices I have.


----------



## tenthplanet

I got an ad last night before a recording of a program on KNBC channel 4. It was for a local business that usually runs ads on KTLA (Independent/CW). If it wasn't for not seeing the green recording time line I wouldn't have known it wasn't part of the broadcast. I checked recordings before 1-9-2020 no ads. Other recordings from last night had no ads. It could be they are targeted ads and they are experimenting. We'll see. Now on to the real problems of the world . This was with a Tivo Bolt running OTA on TE4.


----------



## tenthplanet

Salacious Crumb said:


> Bueller ??


'Deadpool' reference ?


----------



## Fofer

tenthplanet said:


> 'Deadpool' reference ?


Ferris Bueller's Day Off


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Fofer said:


> Ferris Bueller's Day Off


One of us is too young/old for one of these/those.


----------



## tenthplanet

Pokemon_Dad said:


> One of us is too young/old for one of these/those.


----------



## GTW2828

I have been doing research in order to dump Dish Network and possibly go with Spectrum for their Internet/TV package. I thought I had pretty much finished my research on the TIVO Edge for Cable and a Tivo Mini Vox. Then yesterday I ran into an article about this pre roll ads on DVR recordings! Well that set me back to pretty much ground zero as I have no plans to pay for commercials on a service that I am paying for already... But in this thread I have not seen anywhere as to how "long" these pre roll commercials are? I might be able to deal with 15 seconds or 30 at most but no longer than that.. How long are they?
Thanks, Gerry


----------



## Fofer

FWIW, you can click a button to skip them and you can also call TiVo and “opt out” of receiving them.


----------



## GTW2828

Fofer said:


> FWIW, you can click a button to skip them and you can also call TiVo and "opt out" of receiving them.


That is nice that you can skip it but doesn't answer the question of how long are they? Also I will NOT pay about $750 or so for a system that maybe they will take them off if you request it! That looks like touch and go and i'm sure someone just buying a system is not going to get them dropped... Thanks for the reply however..
Gerry


----------



## longrider

I have let the commercial play through a few times and they have been both 15 and 30 seconds but nothing longer. I only actually get a commercial on maybe 1 out of 5 or 10 recordings played.


----------



## Fofer

GTW2828 said:


> That is nice that you can skip it but doesn't answer the question of how long are they? Also I will NOT pay about $750 or so for a system that maybe they will take them off if you request it! That looks like touch and go and i'm sure someone just buying a system is not going to get them dropped... Thanks for the reply however..
> Gerry


I agree with you 100% and understand the concern. I haven't seen a pre roll ad (yet?) on my older hardware, so didn't know their length. But if I were in your shoes I would be feeling the same way.


----------



## foghorn2

Id like the pre rolls if they showed classic 70's and 80's Ads. I watch YouTube for those. Modem ads are all junk.


----------



## GTW2828

longrider said:


> I have let the commercial play through a few times and they have been both 15 and 30 seconds but nothing longer. I only actually get a commercial on maybe 1 out of 5 or 10 recordings played.


Thanks for the reply!! That might be doable and also I hope that I can program a button for "skip" on my Harmony remote (hub).. Really don't like Spectrum at all but first year savings would pay for Tivo Edge and Mini Vox plus one year subscription... I have to now go up and talk to them and find out real world pricing for promo and what is it after the first year is up..
Gerry


----------



## longrider

GTW2828 said:


> Thanks for the reply!! That might be doable and also I hope that I can program a button for "skip" on my Harmony remote (hub).. Really don't like Spectrum at all but first year savings would pay for Tivo Edge and Mini Vox plus one year subscription... I have to now go up and talk to them and find out real world pricing for promo and what is it after the first year is up..
> Gerry


You absolutely can program a Harmony button for skip. I use a harmony myself


----------



## aaronwt

I called a week ago to have the ads removed. Of course it didn't happen. I was also going to cancel my monthly Roamio. But they gave me a $6.95 credit for the month. So I will push that cancellation back another month.

Now I guess I need to call again about removing the ads. 

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## Fofer

aaronwt said:


> I called a week ago to have the ads removed. Of course it didn't happen. I was also going to cancel my monthly Roamio.


Are the ads on a Bolt? Or the Roamio too?


----------



## mlsnyc

aaronwt said:


> I called a week ago to have the ads removed. Of course it didn't happen. I was also going to cancel my monthly Roamio. But they gave me a $6.95 credit for the month. So I will push that cancellation back another month.
> 
> Now I guess I need to call again about removing the ads.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S10


Did you repeat guided setup and restart? I needed to do those to get rid of it on my Bolt. Not sure if you only needed to do one of those or both.


----------



## TKnight206

I'm on TE3. No plans to touch Hydra. Lifetime.



Beryl said:


> I don't have a problem with TiVo pre-roll ads. They just did it wrong. They can charge less to those willing to tolerate them (or more to those who cannot). They can even offer a cheaper lifetime service with ads.
> 
> People who hate ads will pay more like they do with CBSAA and ad-free Hulu. That's fair.
> 
> What isn't fair is putting these ads on devices with lifetime service. We shouldn't have these ads added to recordings without compensation.


There is no logical reason to be putting pre-roll ads on recordings whatsoever. We're talking about a device that not only time-shifts shows for us, but _allows us to skip commercials_. The only appropriate place for ads is in the Discovery Bar and no where else. Even the TiVo Central menu is questionable when it comes to those ads.

If TiVo needs more money, they can just raise monthly and annual rates. I see no reason to ruin the user experience when they can just charge a bit more.


----------



## dianebrat

TKnight206 said:


> I'm on TE3. No plans to touch Hydra.* Lifetime.*
> ...
> If TiVo needs more money,* they can just raise monthly and annual rates*. I see no reason to ruin the user experience when they can just charge a bit more.


Asked and answered, they have no revenue from anyone being Lifetime, giving eyes to the advertisers gets them income again if they have TE4.


----------



## ufo4sale

GTW2828 said:


> That is nice that you can skip it but doesn't answer the question of how long are they? Also I will NOT pay about $750 or so for a system that maybe they will take them off if you request it! That looks like touch and go and i'm sure someone just buying a system is not going to get them dropped... Thanks for the reply however..
> Gerry


As a TiVo poster child I have not received one single ad even though I called in and requested them. I just don't get TiVo sometimes.


----------



## Mikeguy

dianebrat said:


> Asked and answered, they have no revenue from anyone being Lifetime, giving eyes to the advertisers gets them income again if they have TE4.


Well, of course, kinda/sorta. TiVo gets no_ on-going_ revenue from someone on Lifetime, but it gets its revenue there upfront, as well as the time value of the upfront Lifetime payment. And, of course, TiVo also gets revenue from the sale of my personal use information.


----------



## no-mo

Mikeguy said:


> Well, of course, kinda/sorta. TiVo gets no_ on-going_ revenue from someone on Lifetime, but it gets its revenue there upfront, as well as the time value of the upfront Lifetime payment. And, of course, TiVo also gets revenue from the sale of my personal use information.


Dump TiVo and go with something else. It's only going to get worse. The do-nothing tivo folks have sat on the butts for years, now all that matters is more, more more revenue. I'm waiting to see how they mess up the their new dongle (not going to buy one) but it should be good for a few laughs.


----------



## tenthplanet

longrider said:


> I have let the commercial play through a few times and they have been both 15 and 30 seconds but nothing longer. I only actually get a commercial on maybe 1 out of 5 or 10 recordings played.


So far I've only seen them pop-up with some shows recorded from NBC. They may actually needs to sell ads by markets, sort like the way you get local ads on cable.


----------



## schatham

tenthplanet said:


> So far I've only seen them pop-up with some shows recorded from NBC. They may actually needs to sell ads by markets, sort like the way you get local ads on cable.


Advertisers have figured out that they get no return for their ads and have stopped buying them. This will wither on the vine as it was a dumb idea to begin with.


----------



## tenthplanet

schatham said:


> Advertisers have figured out that they get no return for their ads and have stopped buying them. This will wither on the vine as it was a dumb idea to begin with.


This is like when live streaming services launched with unsold ad space, eventually local ad space was sold. Technology is easy, marketing is hard.


----------



## schatham

tenthplanet said:


> This is like when live streaming services launched with unsold ad space, eventually local ad space was sold. Technology is easy, marketing is hard.


Completely different and small target market. Would you buy ad space to a market that will skip them.


----------



## Beryl

I still don’t understand why the television industry hasn’t figured out how to send targeted ads that the consumer probably won’t skip. 

Of course that would require sharing of more personal data.


----------



## Jed1

When Rovi was Gemstar/TVGuide they tried supporting TVGOS with ads and it did not work. So they pulled the plug on the consumer side and kept the cable side going.
I can see the same thing happening here since their efforts to prop up the consumer side “does not move the needle”.


----------



## slice1900

no-mo said:


> Dump TiVo and go with something else. It's only going to get worse. The do-nothing tivo folks have sat on the butts for years, now all that matters is more, more more revenue. I'm waiting to see how they mess up the their new dongle (not going to buy one) but it should be good for a few laughs.


Why dump Tivo now? I'm fine with my Bolt running TE3. No ads, and since it appears they've quit updating TE3 I not only don't have to worry about ads I don't have to worry about them taking away any functionality in the future or adding any new bugs that cause me problems.

What you feel is a good alternative for Tivo today may not be in a few years, or something that isn't today may become one. I prefer to wait until I'm forced to move than to move ahead of time and dispose of a product I'm perfectly happy with, just because of worry about what might happen to it in the future.


----------



## Mikeguy

Jed1 said:


> When Rovi was Gemstar/TVGuide they tried supporting TVGOS with ads and it did not work. So they pulled the plug on the consumer side and kept the cable side going.
> I can see the same thing happening here since their efforts to prop up the consumer side *"does not move the needle"*.


It just brings in consistent subscription fees month after month and year after year.


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> It just brings in consistent subscription fees month after month and year after year.


Are you stating that the advertisers pay fees? I ask because I had TVGOS and never paid anything, nor did my hardware manufacturer (Sony). But with TiVo, we can mostly skip the network ads and the TiVo ads. This is confusing.


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> Are you stating that the advertisers pay fees? I ask because I had TVGOS and never paid anything, nor did my hardware manufacturer (Sony). But with TiVo, we can mostly skip the network ads and the TiVo ads. This is confusing.


I meant the consumers, with our monthly/annual/Lifetime subscription fees.


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> I meant the consumers, with our monthly/annual/Lifetime subscription fees.


I think I get it. 15 years ago, when Sony came out with the DHG, it paid Gemstar for the guide. Sony dropped the product and it took a few years for Sony to stop paying the fees to TVGOS.


----------



## tenthplanet

schatham said:


> Completely different and small target market. Would you buy ad space to a market that will skip them.


Which has always been a challenge with local cable advertising, even cable company dvrs can skip ads.


----------



## aaronwt

mlsnyc said:


> Did you repeat guided setup and restart? I needed to do those to get rid of it on my Bolt. Not sure if you only needed to do one of those or both.


I did not repeat the guided setup. The technical support person never mentioned it.
I guess I should at least try restarting it to see if that does anything.

Sent from my Tab A 10.1


----------



## Jed1

Mikeguy said:


> It just brings in consistent subscription fees month after month and year after year.


It is not the subscription fees that they are talking about. There is about 200,000 households in the US that have retail TiVos in them. That number is not growing. Also most of these retail owners are old loyal owners that don't like any changes and cause TiVo to be stuck in the mud. Those that refuse to move to TE4 because some minor feature is missing is a good example.
Besides the majority of the US population is not going to pay hundreds of dollars for a DVR. Maybe if it was $50 at Walmart and didn't need a cablecard they would have a lot more customers.
I think the end of line is coming for retail TiVos. At some point they will announce they are shutting down the consumer side and just keep the cable side going as that is what Gemstar/Rovi did in the past with TVGOS.


----------



## tenthplanet

Jed1 said:


> It is not the subscription fees that they are talking about. There is about 200,000 households in the US that have retail TiVos in them. That number is not growing. Also most of these retail owners are old loyal owners that don't like any changes and cause TiVo to be stuck in the mud. Those that refuse to move to TE4 because some minor feature is missing is a good example.
> Besides the majority of the US population is not going to pay hundreds of dollars for a DVR. Maybe if it was $50 at Walmart and didn't need a cablecard they would have a lot more customers.
> I think the end of line is coming for retail TiVos. At some point they will announce they are shutting down the consumer side and just keep the cable side going as that is what Gemstar/Rovi did in the past with TVGOS.


The problem has always been most people will never by a DVR period, they see it as part of a cable box or satellite box. I remember when my father had a cable dvr, I didn't talk him into a Tivo because it's hard to deal with cable card issues over the phone 2000 miles away. He would have probably need a tuning adaptor too.


----------



## TKnight206

tenthplanet said:


> The problem has always been most people will never by a DVR period, they see it as part of a cable box or satellite box. I remember when my father had a cable dvr, I didn't talk him into a Tivo because it's hard to deal with cable card issues over the phone 2000 miles away. He would have probably need a tuning adaptor too.


My cable provider raising DVR rental fees pushed me toward TiVo.

Do you think more people would go for TiVo if a TiVo was an rental option from the cable company? Perhaps with options to buy.


----------



## tenthplanet

TKnight206 said:


> My cable provider raising DVR rental fees pushed me toward TiVo.
> 
> Do you think more people would go for TiVo if a TiVo was an rental option from the cable company? Perhaps with options to buy.


It could. If you don't have to deal with cable cards and tuning adaptors the actual operation of a Tivo is fairly simple, the remote fits nicely in your hand. The guide is nice and big. It's really a simple device.


----------



## Mikeguy

Jed1 said:


> It is not the subscription fees that they are talking about. There is about 200,000 households in the US that have retail TiVos in them. That number is not growing. Also most of these retail owners are old loyal owners that don't like any changes and cause TiVo to be stuck in the mud. Those that refuse to move to TE4 because some minor feature is missing is a good example.
> Besides the majority of the US population is not going to pay hundreds of dollars for a DVR. Maybe if it was $50 at Walmart and didn't need a cablecard they would have a lot more customers.
> I think the end of line is coming for retail TiVos. At some point they will announce they are shutting down the consumer side and just keep the cable side going as that is what Gemstar/Rovi did in the past with TVGOS.


I understand that TiVo has challenges with DVR retail sales. But TiVo's own actions don't help. So relatively little general active marketing--when was the last time that you saw a general consumer TiVo ad? And limited retail store availability. I came to the TiVo world through online tech. awareness and word-of-mouth--but I'm not sure that a big part of the consumer world is even aware of TiVo now.

I agree that there's a price barrier. Understandable: $200 for a TiVo box followed by monthly credit card dings or a whopping $550 up-front payment. (I still remember when people here would tell me that I was wrong and that Lifetime really wasn't all that costly, lol.) Especially coming from the OTA world, the payment of a monthly subscription "access" fee to use the DVR that I just had purchased (and for no content) was a hard concept to grasp.* I applauded, and still do, TiVo's modified pricing paradigm for the OTA world, with included or lower-priced subscription.

I disagree with you that many of us are stuck-in-the-mud TiVo users who don't want change and development (yes, I am one of them). I relish it--but I want it _to work and to be done well_. A TE4 that has a dysfunctional Suggestions, that eliminates PC-to-TiVo box transfers, that bulloxes (in multiple ways) TiVo-to-TiVo box transfers, and that eliminates the superior (at least for me) Live Guide just doesn't cut it (for me), for those logical reasons. While you might see these as "minor" features, for others of us, they're not (I've tried at length, but I just find the Grid Guide as painful). I even might be more accepting of the pre-roll ads (as abhorrent as I find that concept in the TiVo world) if they actually worked smoothly (although they seem to have "improved" since the initial roll-out)--but spinning circle delays, placeholder arrow pages, and TiVo box freezes? Come on, TiVo, what were you thinking and doing?

* What finally got me in the door was a close-out sale on the Toshiba Series 2 TiVo box that I purchased, which further incorporated a DVD player that I didn't yet have, and which included a free "TiVo Basic" subscription (a stripped-down TiVo subscription that provided TiVo basic DVR operation including trickplay and a 2-day Guide, but without bells-and-whistles such as Season Passes--an interesting experiment to get people in the door and then to upsell them on a full TiVo subscription (which worked in my case, lol)).


----------



## wbrightfl

slice1900 said:


> Why dump Tivo now? I'm fine with my Bolt running TE3. No ads, and since it appears they've quit updating TE3 I not only don't have to worry about ads I don't have to worry about them taking away any functionality in the future or adding any new bugs that cause me problems.
> 
> What you feel is a good alternative for Tivo today may not be in a few years, or something that isn't today may become one. I prefer to wait until I'm forced to move than to move ahead of time and dispose of a product I'm perfectly happy with, just because of worry about what might happen to it in the future.


I agree, My Premiere and Roamios all still working well and all on TE3 and I am very happy with the service. No panic and complaining at my home. As long as they leave TE3 alone I will be happy. I use Roku for streaming.


----------



## dbpaddler

I genuinely like the look of the og menu system/guide. The new one looks bland and sterile. The lifeless gray does and uninspiring font do nothing for me. The og is just more fun to look at and use. 

And I think if tivo focused on the streaming aspect to give people the same experience they get with fire and roku, make chromecast seamless with it; It would be the perfect all in one solution for those that want live TV (cable or Ota) and streaming. Don't make boxes that force you to buy a new one if you cut the cord. One reason I'll never buy an Edge. I'm Ota now. If I bought an Edge for Ota and decide to go back to cable, I have to buy a new box? This goes right into my beef drawer of no card slots, no headphone jacks and so on. I don't like the whole industry trend to removing essentials, limiting choice and forced upgrade paths strictly to upsell for increased margins and/or add on sales.

Give me an Edge that can do both cable and Ota with a focus on supporting streaming apps. If they want to make an OTA one only for cheaper, fine. Just give me the ota/cable one. I'll gladly pay more if I can have the one box to rule them all. Then upgrade the 4k mini to support the same complement of streaming apps or at least allow it to stream the app from the Edge. Giving me the cohesive ecosystem I once remember tivo being. Then market it to be the one box to rule them all, no transcoding needed. No separate always on pc needed, and so on.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

dbpaddler said:


> I genuinely like the look of the og menu system/guide. The new one looks bland and sterile. The lifeless gray does and uninspiring font do nothing for me. The og is just more fun to look at and use.
> 
> And I think if tivo focused on the streaming aspect to give people the same experience they get with fire and roku, make chromecast seamless with it; It would be the perfect all in one solution for those that want live TV (cable or Ota) and streaming. Don't make boxes that force you to buy a new one if you cut the cord. One reason I'll never buy an Edge. I'm Ota now. If I bought an Edge for Ota and decide to go back to cable, I have to buy a new box? This goes right into my beef drawer of no card slots, no headphone jacks and so on. I don't like the whole industry trend to removing essentials, limiting choice and forced upgrade paths strictly to upsell for increased margins and/or add on sales.
> 
> Give me an Edge that can do both cable and Ota with a focus on supporting streaming apps. If they want to make an OTA one only for cheaper, fine. Just give me the ota/cable one. I'll gladly pay more if I can have the one box to rule them all. Then upgrade the 4k mini to support the same complement of streaming apps or at least allow it to stream the app from the Edge. Giving me the cohesive ecosystem I once remember tivo being. Then market it to be the one box to rule them all, no transcoding needed. No separate always on pc needed, and so on.


I find the all of the Tivo TE3 screens very easy to read and I also like the live guide. I'm not a big fan of any guides or lists that replace text with thumbnails like in TE4.

I find the Xfinity X1 screens very hard to navigate and text very hard to read, and if Tivo went away I'd probably have to use X1 more but my eyes start bothering me after browsing on there.

I also have Channels DVR set up and find their guide and interface easy to read except for a few screens where their purple colors cause a problem. I wish they had text lists of recordings but they use those thumbnails that I don't like but their implementation is fairly good.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

spiderpumpkin said:


> I also have Channels DVR set up and find their guide and interface easy to read except for a few screens where their purple colors cause a problem. I wish they had text lists of recordings but they use those thumbnails that I don't like but their implementation is fairly good.


The color and contrast issues have been raised a more than a few times in the Channels Community forum. I love the purple theme overall, but it could use some work here-and-there.

The "Recordings" section of the web UI comes close to useful text list. I'd love to see that added to the client apps, with folder and sorting options.

Channels gets closer to replacing my TiVo every day. And look Ma, no ads!


----------



## dougtv

TE 4 is cool because of autoskip and voice search. Voice search "Goto CNBC" is cool...

I am not a TE4 hater like many, I did get used to the interface after awhile but I still just don't think it's worth the upgrade for those who have been comfortable with TiVo interface that so many have grown to love over the past decade or more.

The font size is pretty silly given the demographic of legacy users (no offense)
The white on gray look is trying to be "minimalistic" or something when it's really just more difficult to see or navigate for others. But because these concerns don't bother me personally, I am ok with TE4 interface...it's just the lag that bothers me on Roamio models. Oh and the ads in the Live Guide are quite annoying but the TiVo+ doesn't bother me no more than TE3's occasional star recommendations on the main menu below Settings.

I have yet to see any prerolled ads on recorded shows but I still think that's limited to either only Viacom content somehow or maybe cable company provided TiVos?

Despite all the negatives I see...TE4 does grow on you after awhile and it's not the worst thing in the world. TE3 is just better to stick with for many people who love their TiVo already. Autoskip is a wonderful treat when it's available. And voice controls are cool features to make your TiVo not seem so old to others when people are used to google assistant, siri, and alexa everywhere they go  ---

*TLDR for deciding to upgrade:*
Do you really need voice search and autoskip? Or can you just press SKIP/or/D button and not risk the negatives of TE4 everyone echos?


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Pokemon_Dad said:


> The color and contrast issues have been raised a more than a few times in the Channels Community forum. I love the purple theme overall, but it could use some work here-and-there.
> 
> The "Recordings" section of the web UI comes close to useful text list. I'd love to see that added to the client apps, with folder and sorting options.
> 
> Channels gets closer to replacing my TiVo every day. And look Ma, no ads!


Yeah, I use the browser version quite a bit to schedule things, maintain schedule, delete recordings, etc. I do wish there was a way to bulk delete recordings. Like click edit and have boxes to check for recordings I want to delete. For instance, if I have 30 episodes of a show recorded and I want to delete 25 of them I have to do each individually with many clicks. I've heard they can be deleted easier on the actual server file system and then a command can purge them but I haven't tried that.


----------



## Fofer

dougtv said:


> Despite all the negatives I see...TE4 does grow on you after awhile and it's not the worst thing in the world. TE3 is just better to stick with for many people who love their TiVo already. Autoskip is a wonderful treat when it's available. And voice controls are cool features to make your TiVo not seem so old to others when people are used to google assistant, siri, and alexa everywhere they go  ---
> 
> *TLDR for deciding to upgrade:*
> Do you really need voice search and autoskip? Or can you just press SKIP/or/D button and not risk the negatives of TE4 everyone echos?


TE4's CEC remote control was also a game changer, and a deciding factor for me.


----------



## Beryl

dougtv said:


> TE 4 is cool because of autoskip and voice search. Voice search "Goto CNBC" is cool...


Yes, autoskip is quite nice but I hate ads more than I like those features.

We've had TE4 on the Master Bedroom Bolt long before the pre-roll ads. Now that TiVo removed the pre-roll ads, we enjoy those features again and tolerate the guide ads.

I prefer the TE3 guide interface so I insist on leaving the Family Room (main) Roamio alone. TE4 opens the door to even more mischief, IMO.

Besides, crappy Xfinity recorded 720p "HD" content looks better on the smaller bedroom set. We stream more in the Family Room. Win-win.


----------



## Tony_T

TiVo+ ads not in my guide this morning 21.9.6.v7-USC-11-849


----------



## Phil T

:clapping:


----------



## hairyblue

Tony_T said:


> TiVo+ ads not in my guide this morning 21.9.6.v7-USC-11-849


I have this same version and don't have ads on my guide either. But I'm not sure that means anything. Was there talk about them removing guide ads? The survey I filled out asked me about the ads on the guide too. I just assumed my Tivo with a lifetime sub would become an ad machine.


----------



## V7Goose

Tony_T said:


> TiVo+ ads not in my guide this morning 21.9.6.v7-USC-11-849


Wow - let's hope this is permanent! Just checked my one TE4 box, and the hated TiVo+ garbage is gone from my Guide also. But it is not on that worthless sideways strip in the middle of TiVo Home either, so I have to think that this is just a temporary reprieve; everything that TiVo has said recently seems to make it VERY unlikely that they have dumped that stupid product all together.

(And No, TE4 may grow on some people, but after a full year on this box, it has NOT grown on me at all - it is absolutely HORRIBLE.)


----------



## DeltaOne

My Roamio is running 21.9.6.v7 and the TiVo+ ads are still in the guide. I wish they would go away.


----------



## Fofer

V7Goose said:


> (And No, TE4 may grow on some people, but after a full year on this box, it has NOT grown on me at all - it is absolutely HORRIBLE.)


So downgrade back to TE3. Why suffer with something you hate?


----------



## schatham

They are probably gone because Tivo is changing directions again moving to the streaming device.. Maybe we were all just beta testers for the streaming device.


----------



## V7Goose

Fofer said:


> So downgrade back to TE3. Why suffer with something you hate?


My main box is on TE3. I suffer with one box on the horrible TE4 with pride so that I can keep an eye on what the company is doing with that software and speak about what the "experience" is like from personal observation, not just what other people say. I do not bad-mouth something just because other people do not like it; I tell my likes and dislikes because I have USED it and KNOW exactly how it affects me.

I know from personal experience that they HAVE been making that nasty software better, and it was actually getting close to an acceptable level (ignoring, for the moment, the missing features they will not put back) just before they introduced the travesty of forced advertising. The constant ongoing unfixed bugs in their newest software also provides an excellent insight into the internal cancer that has wracked this company.

I am certain that at some future point we will be forced to take the new software, and I want to know exactly what is coming before they shove it down our throats.


----------



## Fofer

I agree that forced advertising in this way is horrible and that TiVo appears to be on a death spiral. TiVo+ is an absolute pathetic joke.

But I actually quite like TE4, haven’t seen a single pre-roll ad on my Roamio Plus or Minis, and now that I’ve upgraded to and experienced TE4, I wouldn’t want a TiVo that didn’t support CEC as well as independent hands-free automatic comskip, both of which are TE4-exclusive features. 

I also think TE3 looks and feels antiquated by comparison.


----------



## t1voproof

I have yet to see pre-roll ads on my Roamio. The box did receive the update removing the Tivo+ ads from the guide recently too.


----------



## Fofer

t1voproof said:


> I have yet to see pre-roll ads on my Roamio. The box did receive the update removing the Tivo+ ads from the guide recently too.


...for now.

Reports right now are that those TiVo+ ad in the guide eventually return.


----------



## tenthplanet

Fofer said:


> ...for now.
> 
> Reports right now are that those TiVo+ ad in the guide eventually return.


Tivo + ads..are zombies. Zombies don't die well


----------



## Chuck_IV

Hmm, I should check to see if this update cleared the stored cookies on my one TiVo that prevents me from starting a new recording. 

I’ve been slowly moving all my videos from that machine over to another so Incan do a hard reset. When I do it Om debating going back to TE3 for good measure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Salacious Crumb

The ad channels in my program guide were gone even though i never called them.
But like every 10 days i need to reboot the tivo because it starts to slow down when i switch channels & that always fixes it.
But now after the reboot the ads are back.
Bummer.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I recently bought a second 3TB Bolt Vox and it came with Hydra installed. I tried Hydra 2 years ago and couldn't stand it, this time I tried it on this new box and those Tivo+ guide entries and preroll ads are awful. I couldn't roll it back fast enough.


----------



## Chuck_IV

So the software update didn’t fix my issue. So I copied all recordings that I wanted to keep, to another TiVo and instead of doing a reset and clear everything, I am DOWNGRADING. 

This way I shouldn’t have to screw around with this [email protected] anymore on the Bolt. Since my other two TiVo’s I have are Roamios, I never have had to worry about prerolls on them, only guide ad intrusions which I handle via PieHole. I may roll back one of them shortly as well but the 3rd has an upgraded drive and way too many recordings to dump off to other boxes. 

TBH I would never have considered rolling back before the prerolls and ad intrusions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

I’m glad I don’t have a Bolt. 

If you downgrade one of the Roamios to TE3 wouldn’t that mean it could no longer share shows with the other Roamios that are on TE4? Or does that just apply to Minis?


----------



## JoeKustra

Fofer said:


> I'm glad I don't have a Bolt.
> If you downgrade one of the Roamios to TE3 wouldn't that mean it could no longer share shows with the other Roamios that are on TE4? Or does that just apply to Minis?


A TE3 box can access and transfer from TE4 TiVo boxes. No Online needed. You lose auto-skip but gain a font that can be seen from a longer distance. A Mini must match its host and but can access programs on either experience.

I don't have a Bolt either.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> I'm glad I don't have a Bolt.
> 
> If you downgrade one of the Roamios to TE3 wouldn't that mean it could no longer share shows with the other Roamios that are on TE4? Or does that just apply to Minis?


Sadly, I didn't care for my roamio basic, and roamio pro's don't do Ota. But I haven't had any issues with my bolt, knock wood. I never let it go to TE4 and downgraded my mini vox's to TE3 at setup. My Pro sits in the basement as a server. I'd love to sell it as I have no plans to go back to cable/fios. But I have so much protected content to go through that I can't transfer, so I leave it connected.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

JoeKustra said:


> You lose auto-skip


...as well as CEC remote control, which I now consider essential in my setup.


----------



## LegoZ

Pre-roll are snuck in here as well


----------



## ufo4sale

How long are the ads, that EVERYBODY is seeing except for me?


----------



## LegoZ

Seems like 20-30 seconds


----------



## Fofer

ufo4sale said:


> How long are the ads, that EVERYBODY is seeing except for me?


I also haven't seen one yet. I have a Roamio Plus and two TiVo Minis, all running TE4/Hydra.


----------



## Chuck_IV

I do not believe the preroll ads are on the Roamios(at least I thought I read that somewhere), only Bolts and up. 

The guide ad intrusions are for all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

Fofer said:


> ...as well as CEC remote control, which I now consider essential in my setup.


Well, you finally got me with one nice thing (ok, among a number  ) on TE4: I just set up a Roku device and having its CEC capability is nice, so that I only need to press any button on the Roku remote to have the TV switch to the Roku device. Would be nice for TE3 on TiVo to have that capability as well, although I can live with using the TiVo remote's Input button.


----------



## Beryl

LegoZ said:


> Pre-roll are snuck in here as well


Thank goodness they are still gone on my Bolt! Guide ads have never left.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

Mikeguy said:


> Well, you finally got me with one nice thing (ok, among a number  ) on TE4: I just set up a Roku device and having its CEC capability is nice, so that I only need to press any button on the Roku remote to have the TV switch to the Roku device. Would be nice for TE3 on TiVo to have that capability as well, although I can live with using the TiVo remote's Input button.


Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. Accidentally bump Roku remote while watching Tivo and it switches to Roku.


----------



## dianebrat

Fofer said:


> ...as well as CEC remote control, which I now consider essential in my setup.


It'll be essential until it one day decides to act up and not work correctly, then you'll spend days troubleshooting with no results and give up and either turn it off or stop using it, then 6-8 months later it will start working for no obvious reason.
That's my and many other peoples experience with complex setups and multiple CEC devices.


----------



## dbpaddler

I use a harmony and have it integrated into Google. Don't use any other remotes so thankfully a non issue for me. I can prep some food in the kitchen and have my home theater fire up from the phone so it's going when I walk in. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

Beryl said:


> Thank goodness they are still gone on my Bolt! Guide ads have never left.


After a Guided Setup last week my Roamio guide is clean. I still have a big TiVo+ down left on the suggestion bar. I have never accepted the TOS for TiVo+.


----------



## Fofer

spiderpumpkin said:


> Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. Accidentally bump Roku remote while watching Tivo and it switches to Roku.


Except that doesn't happen. And I'd rather easily switch between devices with their original, full-featured remotes than have to cycle through inputs to get to the correct one.



dianebrat said:


> It'll be essential until it one day decides to act up and not work correctly, then you'll spend days troubleshooting with no results and give up and either turn it off or stop using it, then 6-8 months later it will start working for no obvious reason.
> That's my and many other peoples experience with complex setups and multiple CEC devices.


Thankfully none of that has happened to me. I've had CEC on nearly all of my devices and soundbar for many years now and it works very well. My setup isn't really all that complex, no AV receiver, and CEC *keeps* it simple. I've had CEC on the Roamio Plus for a long time now, and it too has performed admirably. Now I wait for it to reach the TiVo Minis as well...


----------



## Adam C.

JoeKustra said:


> After a Guided Setup last week my Roamio guide is clean. I still have a big TiVo+ down left on the suggestion bar. I have never accepted the TOS for TiVo+.


The guide ads just come and go at random on my Roamio. They had been gone all of last week, then came back on Sunday, and this morning they are gone again.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Did my 10 day reboot & now the ads are gone - wierd.


----------



## tenthplanet

Ads are 15 to 30 secs when you get them and are usually done in the time it takes you to pick the remote back up. Sometimes you get them some times you don't. A non-problem problem.


----------



## tenthplanet

ufo4sale said:


> How long are the ads, that EVERYBODY is seeing except for me?


Would you LIKE to see them :smilingimp:, perhaps it could be arranged


----------



## aaronwt

tenthplanet said:


> Ads are 15 to 30 secs when you get them and are usually done in the time it takes you to pick the remote back up. Sometimes you get them some times you don't. A non-problem problem.


My remote is still in my hand when the ads start. They start pretty much right away here. I need to call them again to get them removed. Since they are very annoying.


----------



## Fofer

tenthplanet said:


> Ads are 15 to 30 secs when you get them and are usually done in the time it takes you to pick the remote back up. Sometimes you get them some times you don't. A non-problem problem.


Regardless of their length its a problem because the TiVo setup I bought and paid for was sold with the promise of helping me to remove and skip ads, not insert new ones. The principle of TiVo's move here is just as disappointing as the execution. It cheapens the entire user experience.


----------



## ufo4sale

tenthplanet said:


> Would you LIKE to see them :smilingimp:, perhaps it could be arranged


Got to support team TiVo.


----------



## Chuck_IV

Fofer said:


> Regardless of their length its a problem because the TiVo setup I bought and paid for was sold with the promise of helping me to remove and skip ads, not insert new ones. The principle of TiVo's move here is just as disappointing as the execution. It cheapens the entire user experience.


That's the ironic and pathetic part. They develop an AUTOMATIC ad skip for ads within programs but then go and force their own ads into your recordings that are NOT automatically skippable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

Chuck_IV said:


> That's the ironic and pathetic part. They develop an AUTOMATIC ad skip for ads within programs but then go and force their own ads into your recordings that are NOT automatically skippable.


Pretty genius, if you ask me: "Hey, advertisers, as you know, we at TiVo created an AutoSkip feature that allows TiVo users to automatically skip, on recorded shows, the commercials that you paid the networks a lot of money to air. But if you pay us only a little bit more money, we'll put those same ads at the beginning of recorded shows and not give our TiVo users a way to automatically skip them."


----------



## Fofer

But since viewers are able to contact TiVo and opt out of the pre-roll ads, and others are leaving TiVo in droves in disgust, means that proposition is not quite that genius.


----------



## Mikeguy

Well, no one said that TiVo was a genius when it comes to being a genius. (Also, the TiVo consumer world as a whole doesn't know to contact TiVo to opt out, it's only the people here and others who learn of this option--I wonder what that total number is.)


----------



## tenthplanet

Sometimes I wonder outside this forum, if there are just people using a Tivo and just roll with it.


----------



## no-mo

I think Tivo falls into the "days gone by" category when it comes to their hardware. Cord cutting seems like it will continue. Licensing of Tivo IP seems to be their future. The dongle seems destined to fail (it's not needed due to a crowded market already). Fire TV (not a fan) and Apple TV seem to be the leaders. Roku has great market share, but support for the platform appears to have declined from developers; this isn't noticeable right now, but in the next few years, it could be a problem. So many TVs sold under the Roku banner are so grossly under powered, soon, they won't work will new services. ATSC 3.0 is going to be a bear. We're testing it now and I'm not sure how current devices (besides Apple TV and Nvidia Shield quality-level devices) are gong to make it post ATSC 3.0. HDHomeRun hasn't even addressed ATSC 3.0, yet. 

All-in-all there is a lot opportunity in this space but some fresh thinking is needed; and it isn't running ads before recorded content.


----------



## slice1900

no-mo said:


> ATSC 3.0 is going to be a bear. We're testing it now and I'm not sure how current devices (besides Apple TV and Nvidia Shield quality-level devices) are gong to make it post ATSC 3.0. HDHomeRun hasn't even addressed ATSC 3.0, yet.


Why does ATSC 3.0 matter for these devices? They don't have ATSC tuners now, and there's no reason to believe any of them will add ATSC 3.0 tuners. Even if they did, they aren't going to be trying to implement an ATSC 3.0 tuner in software so the CPU power doesn't matter. Any device dealing with ATSC 3.0 will have a hardware tuner that outputs an HEVC stream, and a hardware HEVC decoder for display which is already needed for a device that handles 4K. The CPU isn't doing a whole lot of heavy lifting in that scenario.


----------



## dswallow

I've been reviewing various streaming services in the last week and mapping out what I get get from each and what I care about getting, et. al. When I return from a trip in about 9 days I'm going to sort out rearranging my subscriptions. I think it's unlikely I'd drop the basic cable services completely, so that'll leave me with TiVo functionality still in use, but I'm about to get closer to just departing from the ecosystem... much closer than ever before, at least. Buying an OTA version of TiVo hardware is definitely not under consideration, no matter what other choices I make. So to that extent, TiVo's recent behavior has at least that consequence.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

dswallow said:


> Buying an OTA version of TiVo hardware is definitely not under consideration, no matter what other choices I make. So to that extent, TiVo's recent behavior has at least that consequence.


Channels DVR is among the possibilities discussed in TiVo Alternatives thread and various cord-cutting threads. The server runs on many NAS options or even an old PC/Mac, and the player apps run on platforms you'd likely use for streaming too.


----------



## Beryl

Fofer said:


> But since viewers are able to contact TiVo and opt out of the pre-roll ads, and others are leaving TiVo in droves in disgust, means that proposition is not quite that genius.


Yeah and the problem is that they come back. I sent an email but will be calling TiVo to follow up. When my xfinity contract is up, I plan to get rid of TiVo.

I find the circled text interesting. When you click on the article, the support guidance to the customer is not shown. The support team isn't supposed to offer the opt-out option, it appears.


----------



## jlb

tenthplanet said:


> Sometimes I wonder outside this forum, if there are just people using a Tivo and just roll with it.


LOL.


----------



## dswallow

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Channels DVR is among the possibilities discussed in TiVo Alternatives thread and various cord-cutting threads. The server runs on many NAS options or even an old PC/Mac, and the player apps run on platforms you'd likely use for streaming too.


I have 4 HDHomeRun tuners connected and configured with my Plex Server, and there's roughly 69-76 channels I can receive, though after eliminating the religious ones and the Spanish ones, and the Chinese, Korean and Japanese ones, and the shopping channels... , so I can always deal with OTA in one way or another. It's more a matter of convenience in possibly looking for other sources. One thing I really haven't done lately is made a list of the shows I even care about via OTA anymore; it's dwindled considerably if you look at the number of season passes I have that are just accumulating episodes and I never watch.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

jlb said:


> LOL.


Nice choice. Especially since you coulda just Rickrolled him.


----------



## Fofer

dswallow said:


> I One thing I really haven't done lately is made a list of the shows I even care about via OTA anymore; it's dwindled considerably if you look at the number of season passes I have that are just accumulating episodes and I never watch.


This is where I am at now. The manner I accumulate and watch recordings has changed in recent years. TiVo seems disinterested in evolving to match my current priorities and also seems hell-bent on ruining the user experience I was initially sold on.

It certainly feels like my days with TiVo will come to an end in the not too distant future. It works for now but I have lost faith in them. I have a feeling that when I do finally switch, it won't be to a new local DVR, and all the admin and maintenance that requires. It'll be to a live streamer with cloud DVR like YouTube TV, which I'd eventually get used to, and eventually come to appreciate more.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

dswallow said:


> I have 4 HDHomeRun tuners connected and configured with my Plex Server, and there's roughly 69-76 channels I can receive, though after eliminating the religious ones and the Spanish ones, and the Chinese, Korean and Japanese ones, and the shopping channels... , so I can always deal with OTA in one way or another. It's more a matter of convenience in possibly looking for other sources. One thing I really haven't done lately is made a list of the shows I even care about via OTA anymore; it's dwindled considerably if you look at the number of season passes I have that are just accumulating episodes and I never watch.


Oh well then if you're used to Plex and happy with it, stick with it. I did not know you had that all that running. On the other topic of OTA, finding television to care about does take some effort these days. About a year ago I realized we had gone almost all streaming here, but with the help and support of TCF I found at least a few more OnePass candidates. Still mostly streaming though.


----------



## V7Goose

I had the pre-roll commercials removed from my Bolt back in September, and this nasty dishonest company has RE-ENABLED that garbage on the same box again this week. So much for the big lie that you can just call and opt-out of this intrusive crap.


----------



## Mikeguy

As I recall the earlier statements, a TiVo box software update may break the earlier opt-out. The solution is to speak with TiVo customer service and ask that the opt-out be applied again--I have never read, here, of the re-request being declined.


----------



## V7Goose

It seems to me that Bad_Rovi is following the well-known pattern of the sleazy cable operators: when the customer calls with an angry complaint, just offer then something small to shut them up and get them off the phone, with the full intent of screwing them again later after they have gotten complacent again. You know, you can always get a cable company to give you a temporary break on your bill, but it always goes right back up after 6 months or a year. Seems telling that those unwanted intrusive forced commercials came right back on my box just about exactly 6 moths after I complained to them the first time!


----------



## Mikeguy

Yep it would be nicer if the opt-out would stick, but if one can opt-out again, it's the next-best thing.


----------



## Fofer

If anyone has to call in after every update to get the pre-roll ads removed, it’s just a temporary disabling, not an actual “opt out.” What a joke.

I’m thankful my Roamio Plus and Minis have never displayed this crap and the minute any of it does (if it ever does) I’ll be installing PiHole. And I won’t ever be buying, supporting, or recommending TiVo hardware again. What a pathetic end to a once-promising company.


----------



## Beryl

It is a joke. Putting ads back after customers opt-out is shady. I don’t trust TiVo enough to consider their new streaming box.

I used to wish I’d purchased OTA TiVo boxes instead of the ones I have. It is probably a good thing so I can cut ties with. My lifetime Premiere will be kept for a while but my 2 newer TiVos are history in 10 months.


----------



## tapokata

I noticed my first pre-roll ads a few days back. There are four different Tom Steyer political ads appearing, and the repetition caught my attention, not to mention that they don't appear to fit the space... typically abbreviated at the start (starting mid-sentence) and over-lapping broadcast commercials. Annoying.

_Le Sigh_. Back to the FireTv and Recast.


----------



## foghorn2

So now you pay tivo (mrc, yearly or all in) so you can watch Tom Steyer ads. 

Whats next, Bloomberg?

Pathetic!


----------



## tenthplanet

We got ads for 24hr Fitness, and a general get out and Vote ad.


----------



## jmccorm

I'd love to get a new TiVo. Especially this week. TE4 interface? No problem, I'll accept that. But pre-roll ads (and in-guide spam) are just a deal killer.

Someone asked, "Sometimes I wonder outside this forum, if there are just people using a Tivo and just roll with it." I suspect that among the reasons those people had to buy a TiVo, somehow, avoiding ads wasn't one of them. Those aside, I can see the remainder knowing that there is nothing they can do about the device working contrary to its purpose, and they've resigned to suffer in silence.

When it comes time for their next DVRs, TiVo will have lost even more customers. I take no joy in saying that. TE3 was enough to retain me as a customer, but they've cut off the escape route for those who wanted to purchase new hardware and stay within the TiVo family.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

jmccorm said:


> I'd love to get a new TiVo. Especially this week. TE4 interface? No problem, I'll accept that. But pre-roll ads (and in-guide spam) are just a deal killer.
> 
> Someone asked, "Sometimes I wonder outside this forum, if there are just people using a Tivo and just roll with it." I suspect that among the reasons those people had to buy a TiVo, somehow, avoiding ads wasn't one of them. Those aside, I can see the remainder knowing that there is nothing they can do about the device working contrary to its purpose, and they've resigned to suffer in silence.
> 
> When it comes time for their next DVRs, TiVo will have lost even more customers. I take no joy in saying that. TE3 was enough to retain me as a customer, but they've cut off the escape route for those who wanted to purchase new hardware and stay within the TiVo family.


You can roll back all new Tivos to TE3 except for Edge.


----------



## tapokata

spiderpumpkin said:


> You can roll back all new Tivos to TE3 except for Edge.


IIRC, the Bolt OTA can't be rolled back, either.


----------



## dbpaddler

tapokata said:


> IIRC, the Bolt OTA can't be rolled back, either.


My Bolt does OTA and was toed back. But I can do either or on mine (cable/Ota).

One reason why I will never buy an edge. I shouldnt have to choose a box based on cable or Ota. I've accepted I'll no longer have simultaneous in one box, but to not be able to do either/or in onbox is just dumb. Can't justify an all in when I might bounce back to cable because fios/Comcast decides to offer a tempting package. But when that package is gone its back to internet only and Ota.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## pfiagra

dbpaddler said:


> My Bolt does OTA and was toed back. But I can do either or on mine (cable/Ota).


So then you don't have a Bolt OTA model, which is what tapokata was referring to.

https://support.tivo.com/articles/FAQ/TiVo-Service-Number-and-Model-Number-Table#TiVo BOLT Series


----------



## tapokata

dbpaddler said:


> My Bolt does OTA and was toed back. But I can do either or on mine (cable/Ota).


Generic Bolts, and the Bolt Vox, can be configured for either cable or OTA reception, although not both, and both will run either interface. The "BOLT OTA" however, is a specific model- that in addition to missing a few things (like a MoCA interface) is pre-configured with TE4 and cannot be rolled back.


----------



## dbpaddler

tapokata said:


> Generic Bolts, and the Bolt Vox, can be configured for either cable or OTA reception, although not both, and both will run either interface. The "BOLT OTA" however, is a specific model- that in addition to missing a few things (like a MoCA interface) is pre-configured with TE4 and cannot be rolled back.


They dumbed down the bolt Ota like a roamio basic? Geez. As someone that's had a Tivo since the Toshiba DVD combo, it's just amazing how f'd up the decision making has been over the years. Software advancement, hardware design, app streaming. The potential to be the one ecosystem to rule them all. Just sad. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

dbpaddler said:


> They dumbed down the bolt Ota like a roamio basic? Geez.


The basic Roamio can do either OTA or cable. Even an OTA Roamio can do cable if you add the card bracket. That special OTA Bolt was sold at a big discount.


----------



## dbpaddler

JoeKustra said:


> The basic Roamio can do either OTA or cable. Even an OTA Roamio can do cable if you add the card bracket. That special OTA Bolt was sold at a big discount.


Dumbed down as in no built in moca like the roamio basic...

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

dbpaddler said:


> Dumbed down as in no built in moca like the roamio basic...


Basic Roamio has no built-in MoCA. A Plus or Pro would be needed.


----------



## dbpaddler

JoeKustra said:


> Basic Roamio has no built-in MoCA. A Plus or Pro would be needed.


No kidding. That was my point of the post.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

tapokata said:


> I noticed my first pre-roll ads a few days back. There are four different Tom Steyer political ads appearing, and the repetition caught my attention, not to mention that they don't appear to fit the space... typically abbreviated at the start (starting mid-sentence) and over-lapping broadcast commercials. Annoying.
> 
> _Le Sigh_. Back to the FireTv and Recast.


Or just wait until November 3.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

tapokata said:


> IIRC, the Bolt OTA can't be rolled back, either.


Is that TE4 only Bolt OTA something a lot of people have? Or do most people with an OTA Bolt have the TE3/TE4 Bolt cable/OTA model?


----------



## Fofer

It’s worth noting (per this thread title) that the preroll ads only appear on TE4 Bolts and newer.

For my money right now, the Roamio Plus and Pro have been better buys. They’re not weirdly shaped curved boxes, allow for larger HDD upgrades, and don’t have any pre-roll ads on TE4. At least not yet!


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> It's worth noting (per this thread title) that the preroll ads only appear on TE4 Bolts and newer.
> 
> For my money right now, the Roamio Plus and Pro have been better buys. They're not weirdly shaped curved boxes, allow for larger HDD upgrades, and don't have any pre-roll ads on TE4. At least not yet!


Except neither of those will do OTA, sadly. And the Edge doesn't have an option that can do both. Unless you go back to Premiere, the Bolt is the only option for those of us that bounce around.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

Yes that’s right. I held onto my old Premier for that reason, it’s still on my network and allows me to use OTA when I want to.

It sucks that TiVo has always forced us to make difficult choices. Looks like I won’t be buying any new TiVo and am happy my last investment in theirs was a Roamio Plus. Their about-face on the release of TiVo apps for appleTV and Roku, after a year of lies, was the straw that broke this camel’s back.


----------



## weaver

The Roamio Basic will do OTA or cable.


----------



## Fofer

Yes but it can’t stream natively and everyone says it sucks on TE4. 

My Roamio Plus runs fine on TE4, and has streaming built into it.


----------



## dbpaddler

weaver said:


> The Roamio Basic will do OTA or cable.


Yes, but build quality is inferior and no built in moca. And no 4k streaming options. Might not matter to some. Have had two go down. They also use cheap AC adapters for it compared to say the ones on the Bolt.

Edit, and the streaming. Being called Basic is an understatement. It's more like the Roamio Cheap.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## schatham

spiderpumpkin said:


> Is that TE4 only Bolt OTA something a lot of people have? Or do most people with an OTA Bolt have the TE3/TE4 Bolt cable/OTA model?


Yes, if people only use Antenna it saves a lot of money. Big cost savings.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> Yes that's right. I held onto my old Premier for that reason, it's still on my network and allows me to use OTA when I want to.
> 
> It sucks that TiVo has always forced us to make difficult choices. Looks like I won't be buying any new TiVo and am happy my last investment in theirs was a Roamio Plus. Their about-face on the release of TiVo apps for appleTV and Roku, after a year of lies, was the straw that broke this camel's back.


I do miss having OTA and Cable on one box. I'd use OTA for all of my broadcast recording and the difference was notable.

I keep contemplating getting an XL4 and picking up a Chromecast Ultra for 4k streaming. You can get them with lifetime for about $120-140.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## TivoJD

dbpaddler said:


> I do miss having OTA and Cable on one box. I'd use OTA for all of my broadcast recording and the difference was notable.
> 
> I keep contemplating getting an XL4 and picking up a Chromecast Ultra for 4k streaming. You can get them with lifetime for about $120-140.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


XL4 doesn't do OTA, you would want an XL or one of the first Premieres.


----------



## OrangeTurtle

I actually really liked my Roamio basic- loved that it could do either cable or OTA ( I've switched back and forth based on finances). Switched to a renewed bolt a year ago- have been happy with that too (has same options as the roamio basic, but don't need the Tivo Stream). Hard drive is small, but I make it work.

Nervous about the future of Tivo. I used to sing praises to people about it. Now, I'm not even willing to recommend it to others.

Agree the edge was a huge disappointment. I called Tivo about the pre roll ads to opt out- then I also went back from TE 4 to TE 3. I've used both for good lengths of time and must say I didn't "hate" TE 4, but don't want to worry about the ad issues (and am worried at some point they won't let you revert to old software (like other tech companies do).


----------



## dbpaddler

TivoJD said:


> XL4 doesn't do OTA, you would want an XL or one of the first Premieres.


Guess I meant to say the XL 4 tuner that has both coax inputs.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

dbpaddler said:


> weaver said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Roamio Basic will do OTA or cable.
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, but build quality is inferior *and no built in moca. And no 4k streaming options. Might not matter to some. Have had two go down. *They also use cheap AC adapters *for it compared to say the ones on the Bolt.
> 
> Edit, and the streaming. *Being called Basic is an understatement. It's more like the Roamio Cheap. *
Click to expand...

I haven't had that experience and can't recall posts here along those lines, from other box owners. I would assume that the bulk of the Roamio boxes is identical. Just anecdotally, but my Roamio Basic box has been pretty solid. 


weaver said:


> The Roamio Basic will do OTA or cable.





Fofer said:


> Yes but it can't stream natively and everyone says it sucks on TE4.
> My Roamio Plus runs fine on TE4, and has streaming built into it.


Why would TE4 run any differently on the Roamio Basic box than on the other Roamio boxes? I haven't heard of that before (perhaps I missed some posts).


----------



## Fofer

The Roamio Basic has lesser hardware specs than the Plus or Pro. Over the years I have read many complaints that say the cheapie Basic model doesn’t run TE4 as well as the more expensive models.


----------



## Mikeguy

I know that the Roamio Basic box doesn't have built-in MoCA or streaming, but I hadn't heard that there was any other difference in the base engineering (apart from where the power supply is located, and cable vs. OTA) such as that I would think that running TE4 would be any different. In fact, given that it's TiVo, I would have thought that things would be equal (it's typically cheaper that way). Interesting.

But I'm not looking to experiment and see with my TE3 Roamio Basic box, lol.


----------



## dbpaddler

The basic is very basic and cheap from the inside out. Funny enough, just from a feel point of view, the Bolt isn't any better. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

Interesting that you have those impressions--I just don't see a basis for it, myself.


----------



## Fofer

Because all you have is the Roamio Basic and nothing else to compare it to, and aren't even running TE4...?


----------



## Mikeguy

No, because of logic and what's already been determined about the engineering between the boxes (with nothing having been noted of a difference between the core technology), and because I haven't seen this having been claimed with technological support before.

I guess that you and others must have various different Roamio box models and have tested these matters out.


----------



## Fofer

There were many reasons it was the cheapest.


----------



## Chuck_IV

I have one of each, a Roamio Basic, Roamio Plus and a Bolt. 

The Roamio Basic and Plus ran TE4 equally. While TE4 didn’t run like a dog, it was not snappy and downright laggy at times. The Bolt ran TE4 fine but the prerolls(on the Bolt) and the guide ad intrusions(on all 3) made me roll back all of them to TE3. 

On TE3 both my Roamios are now back to being snappy and efficient again and the Bolt on TE3(it came with TE4 preinstalled) is blazing. 

I do not use any of the streaming apps as I have other streaming boxes that are MUCH better for that. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

To clarify, in case it wasn’t clear: no prerolls on Roamios.


----------



## JoeKustra

Fofer said:


> The Roamio Basic has lesser hardware specs than the Plus or Pro. Over the years I have read many complaints that say the cheapie Basic model doesn't run TE4 as well as the more expensive models.





Fofer said:


> Yes but it can't stream natively and everyone says it sucks on TE4.
> My Roamio Plus runs fine on TE4, and has streaming built into it.


My basic Roamio on TE4 doesn't suck, but it's not as quick as the Mini VOX slave using it. When problems are posted about a Roamio, seldom is it a Roamio basic. That could be because most members don't add three or four Mini slaves to it. I just read a post asking if it was worth upgrading, due to the sale, a 6-year old basic Roamio to a Bolt. Too many Bolts appear to have an 18 month lifespan. TiVo isn't offering free replacement Roamio hard drives. I don't own a Bolt. I make do with four basic Roamio units, a Premiere and three Mini. The TE4 Roamio is slower that the TE3 Roamio but not as slow as a TE3 Premiere. My cable company rents the Arris/TiVo box. I don't think they are flying off the shelf. I'm just glad to not have a guide with ads and pre-roll ads. I have a Roku, so that's one more thing I can't complain about.


----------



## Fofer

JoeKustra said:


> When problems are posted about a Roamio, seldom is it a Roamio basic.


Hard disagree. I have seen _very many_ complaints here and elsewhere about issues with Roamio Basics over the years, especially running TE4. I've used a Roamio Basic at a friend's place and experienced lagginess myself. These issues that have never dogged my Roamio Plus. I upgraded this box soon after purchase with a 3TB drive, and that is still working fine, now happily running TE4. No lagginess whatsoever, and it's powering two TiVo Minis, neither of which are laggy either.


----------



## Charles R

According to here... extra chip in the Plus/Pro for local streaming (not supported on the Roamio) I'm assuming. I have never noticed any real difference between TE3/TE4 with my Roamio. Performance has been fine with better response than I found with the Amazon Recast. Regarding "reported" problems I'm guessing the "Basic" model has the lion's share of sales so comparing it to another model isn't apples to apples.

_The TiVo Roamio was made available on August 20, 2013.[34]

Hardware:
_

_CPU: Broadcom BCM7241 3000 Dhrystone MIPS
_
_Transcoder: NXP (Freescale / Zenverge) ZN200 (Roamio Plus and Pro only)_


----------



## Mikeguy

Chuck_IV said:


> I have one of each, a Roamio Basic, Roamio Plus and a Bolt.
> 
> The Roamio Basic and Plus ran TE4 equally. While TE4 didn't run like a dog, it was not snappy and downright laggy at times. The Bolt ran TE4 fine but the prerolls(on the Bolt) and the guide ad intrusions(on all 3) made me roll back all of them to TE3.
> 
> On TE3 both my Roamios are now back to being snappy and efficient again and the Bolt on TE3(it came with TE4 preinstalled) is blazing.
> 
> I do not use any of the streaming apps as I have other streaming boxes that are MUCH better for that.


Thanks for the fact-based, personal user input.

I'd be interested in seeing earlier complaining posts from here about the Roamio Basic box as vs. the Roamio Plus/Pro as to the core TiVo functions (and not as to the missing MoCA or streaming capabilities), as I really don't recall them and the core engineering between the boxes seems to be the same--I don't recall differences (e.g. different chipsets) having been pointed out earlier.


----------



## Fofer

Sadly the search function here (in this context at least) is kind of useless — because there are many such posts. IIRC many around the time Hydra was released because that’s when much of the differences became apparent. This specific discussion belongs in another thread though please


----------



## dbpaddler

Besides... Do your own research if you don't believe what actual owners have experienced. Having owned all three boxes concurrently and experienced issues at the time and searching at the time about such issues, I'm not doing it all over again because someone doesn't believe just based on "it's the same chipset". When a cheaper overall casing is used and other physical gestures are omitted as well as a cheaper wall wart is used, if you think the same level of build quality was used amongst all boxes, then fine. As pointed out, this isnt the thread to continue the topic, and if you really care that much, let your fingers do the typing. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## NashGuy

dbpaddler said:


> I keep contemplating getting an XL4 and picking up a Chromecast Ultra for 4k streaming.


Why get a Chromecast Ultra for 4K streaming instead of the upcoming TiVo Stream 4K, which runs Google Android TV (and therefore should also be able to act as a Chromecast)? TiVo's streamer supports both 4K and Dolby Vision HDR, as does the Chromecast Ultra. Both carry a regular price of about $70, although the TiVo Stream 4K will initially launch at $50. But while the Chromecast Ultra can only act as a cast receptor -- with no on-screen UI or remote control -- TiVo's dongle does have those things.


----------



## Charles R

dbpaddler said:


> I'm not doing it all over again because someone doesn't believe just based on "it's the same chipset". When a cheaper overall casing is used and other physical gestures are omitted as well as a cheaper wall wart is used, if you think the same level of build quality was used amongst all boxes, then fine.


Somehow I think the chipset determines performance more so than "cheaper overall casing"... regarding performance. Regarding "problems" I don't see how the fact the "Basic" requires less power and it happens to have a "cheaper case" would lead to being less reliable.

If performance and reliability were based on "perceived" build quality every generation of new devices would perform worse than their predecessor. Rarely does it factor in performance or reliability. Now if you happen to believe a metal case is superior to plastic more power to you... I do to although not regarding its performance or reliability.


----------



## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Yes but it can't stream natively and everyone says it sucks on TE4.
> 
> My Roamio Plus runs fine on TE4, and has streaming built into it.


My Roamios are also fine on TE4. A Roamio OTA and a Roamio Basic. The Bolts are a little faster, but the Roamio is still quick with TE4.

If I could go back in time to 2015, I would have just kept my Roamio Pro and never messed with the Bolts. But I'm stuck with two lifetime Bolts and two Bolts that were on yearly. And two more Bolts that can never be added to an account.(from the Ebay scam in 2015)

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## dbpaddler

NashGuy said:


> Why get a Chromecast Ultra for 4K streaming instead of the upcoming TiVo Stream 4K, which runs Google Android TV (and therefore should also be able to act as a Chromecast)? TiVo's streamer supports both 4K and Dolby Vision HDR, as does the Chromecast Ultra. Both carry a regular price of about $70, although the TiVo Stream 4K will initially launch at $50. But while the Chromecast Ultra can only act as a cast receptor -- with no on-screen UI or remote control -- TiVo's dongle does have those things.


1. Why would I want to continue supporting a company that doesn't show the love back? That half asses everything and just continues to fail at making anything worthwhile? I'll add a qualifier to that. Worthwhile for its DVR customers. Because as a standalone device, sure, the Stream looks good. For their DVR customers who already own Mini's? It's a no go. Which leads to #2

2. If it's not replacing a Mini, why would I want a second tivo device with a 2nd tivo remote? Sorry, that's just dumb.

If I gave a Tivo DVR on the TV already, why would I buy another tivo product that doesn't interact with it?

Now if they would turn the Mini Vox into a Mini Stream Vox, I'd be on board and throw the DVR in the basement. But having zero interaction with the DVR, no thanks.

I much prefer to use my phone to find what I want to watch and cast it. I can also continue to watch what I'm watching while I'm looking which I can't do on the Stream 4k as I have to switch inputs to even access it.

So not really seeing the point of the Stream 4k for DVR owners hoping to augment their existing setup. In fact, it's a bit of an FU to their DVR customers because we're all wondering why our Mini Vox's can't also act as a Stream 4k. At least I'm wondering.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, the TiVo Stream 4K doesn't even stream TiVo. if was going to use Sling TV, why wouldn't I just use it on a (much better and more flexible) AppleTV, AndroidTV, Roku or FireTV? WTH would I use a new TiVo streaming box? They are terrible at streaming, have shown design incompetence and break their promises all the time. The TIVo Stream 4K, to me, is a sign of surrender for a company that has completely squandered customer loyalty. It's a desperate product that makes no sense.


----------



## dbpaddler

Charles R said:


> Somehow I think the chipset determines performance more so than "cheaper overall casing"... regarding performance. Regarding "problems" I don't see how the fact the "Basic" requires less power and it happens to have a "cheaper case" would lead to being less reliable.
> 
> If performance and reliability were based on "perceived" build quality every generation of new devices would perform worse than their predecessor. Rarely does it factor in performance or reliability. Now if you happen to believe a metal case is superior to plastic more power to you... I do to although not regarding its performance or reliability.


Again. I really don't care what you think. I care about the problems I had. I care about the problems my customers had. I searched and found multiple complaint threads when I went problem solving. None of my customers nor myself have Basics in the setups anymore. And tivo had no interest in replacing them with another Basic. They were also really quick to replace the wall wart which was the problem in one and could've led to the problems in the others. And they replaced the defective wall wart with a much nicer Bolt adapter. I wonder why... Maybe performance and quality starts at the first point of entry, the power supply.

And the casing does have something to do with dissipating heat. Not just in material but in overall design with the venting and fan. Last I checked, metal does a better job at dissipating heat than plastic. Unless I missed all those plastic heat sinks somewhere. So feel free to grab a thermometer and test the boxes side by side under similar loads for an extended period of time and give us your thermal readings. We're all anxious to hear your findings. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Fofer said:


> It's a desperate product that makes no sense.


It's a product targeted at the (largest) market... now whether they can compete in the big pond is another story. If they "satisfied" their existing market it would virtually make it less attractive to those they are targeting...


----------



## NashGuy

dbpaddler said:


> 1. Why would I want to continue supporting a company that doesn't show the love back? That half asses everything and just continues to fail at making anything worthwhile? I'll add a qualifier to that. Worthwhile for its DVR customers. Because as a standalone device, sure, the Stream looks good. For their DVR customers who already own Mini's? It's a no go. Which leads to #2
> 
> 2. If it's not replacing a Mini, why would I want a second tivo device with a 2nd tivo remote? Sorry, that's just dumb.
> 
> If I gave a Tivo DVR on the TV already, why would I buy another tivo product that doesn't interact with it?
> 
> Now if they would turn the Mini Vox into a Mini Stream Vox, I'd be on board and throw the DVR in the basement. But having zero interaction with the DVR, no thanks.
> 
> I much prefer to use my phone to find what I want to watch and cast it. I can also continue to watch what I'm watching while I'm looking which I can't do on the Stream 4k as I have to switch inputs to even access it.
> 
> So not really seeing the point of the Stream 4k for DVR owners hoping to augment their existing setup. In fact, it's a bit of an FU to their DVR customers because we're all wondering why our Mini Vox's can't also act as a Stream 4k. At least I'm wondering.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


You seem to be missing the point that the TiVo Stream 4K has all the capabilities of the Chromecast Ultra (you can cast to it from your phone, it can display 4K Dolby Vision) but it also has additional capabilities too. And it will initially sell for $19 less than the Chromecast Ultra.

But if you don't want to buy it out of spite against TiVo (even though it will be Google, not TiVo, who supplies the apps it runs), cool, whatever.


----------



## Charles R

dbpaddler said:


> And they replaced the defective wall wart with a much nicer Bolt adapter. I wonder why...


In most cases they no longer produce/stock older models - simply easier all around.



> And the casing does have something to do with dissipating heat.


The case material itself will typically have virtually no affect on cooling. And in this _case_ the cases weren't designed to dissipate heat via their material.



> So feel free to grab a thermometer and test the boxes side by side under similar loads for an extended period of time and give us your thermal readings.


Completely irrelevant unless it's outside the recommended operating temperatures.


----------



## dbpaddler

NashGuy said:


> You seem to be missing the point that the TiVo Stream 4K has all the capabilities of the Chromecast Ultra (you can cast to it from your phone, it can display 4K Dolby Vision) but it also has additional capabilities too. And it will initially sell for $19 less than the Chromecast Ultra.
> 
> But if you don't want to buy it out of spite against TiVo (even though it will be Google, not TiVo, who supplies the apps it runs), cool, whatever.


I just refuse to buy new tivo hardware anymore, period. Call it spite. More distrust than anything, especially when support can be so hit or miss.

And who pays retail? I've never paid close to retail for anything, ever. Especially electronics. Quite sure I'd find a deal on an Ultra cheaper than the Stream 4k. And for now it doesn't really matter as my bedroom TV where the premiere would go, if I pick one up, is still 1080.

And what's wrong with Spite? Don't know why any tivo DVR owner who is tired of the direction this company has gone, would buy a new product from them. Your only power as a consumer is to not financially support the company . If you want to continue to support a company who says FU to its longstanding base, go right ahead. I'm done buying new equipment from them.

Imagine if nobody bought the stream 4k from them out of spite? Would never happen, but would be an awesome statement against them and the direction they've taken. One can dream.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dbpaddler

Charles R said:


> In most cases they no longer produce/stock older models - simply easier all around.
> 
> The case material itself will typically have virtually no affect on cooling. And in this _case_ the cases weren't designed to dissipate heat via their material.
> 
> Completely irrelevant unless it's outside the recommended operating temperatures.


Oh well... Done with the back and forth. Your beliefs/opinions are irrelevant to my actual instances and the ones I've read from others. No reason to entertain the topic further.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dswallow

NashGuy said:


> You seem to be missing the point that the TiVo Stream 4K has all the capabilities of the Chromecast Ultra (you can cast to it from your phone, it can display 4K Dolby Vision) but it also has additional capabilities too. And it will initially sell for $19 less than the Chromecast Ultra.
> 
> But if you don't want to buy it out of spite against TiVo (even though it will be Google, not TiVo, who supplies the apps it runs), cool, whatever.


It's a matter of trust, too. I've lost trust in TiVo and hardware support, especially long-term, and most especially in their [in]ability to support multiple providers even beyond the first successful round of begging for app development. TiVo has proven, time and again, they do not offer long-term ecosystem support, and with the TiVo Stream can't even manage to come out of the gate providing ecosystem support of one of their own product lines. This is a dead company right now, devoid of any development talent or even the desire to have talent.

At this point, they should open source it all and let the community do what they can't or won't.


----------



## Mikeguy

dbpaddler said:


> Besides... Do your own research if you don't believe what actual owners have experienced. Having owned all three boxes concurrently and experienced issues at the time and searching at the time about such issues, I'm not doing it all over again because someone doesn't believe just based on "it's the same chipset". When a cheaper overall casing is used and other physical gestures are omitted as well as a cheaper wall wart is used, if you think the same level of build quality was used amongst all boxes, then fine. As pointed out, this isnt the thread to continue the topic, and if you really care that much, let your fingers do the typing.


Not to belabor this issue, but you are. I just dislike seeing unsupported claims, without a technological basis, which can lead to false impressions for others. And indeed, if there is a basis, I'd like to see that as well (apart from just an idiosyncratic experience, but which itself still _is _important to note--but it doesn't necessarily then generalize to an entire class). And in the world of technology, when one is claiming a failure of tech. performance, "it's the same chipset" and the same internal components is kind of important.


dbpaddler said:


> *Again. I really don't care what you think. *I care about the problems I had. I care about the problems my customers had. I searched and found multiple complaint threads when I went problem solving. None of my customers nor myself have Basics in the setups anymore. And tivo had no interest in replacing them with another Basic. They were also really quick to replace the wall wart which was the problem in one and could've led to the problems in the others. And they replaced the defective wall wart with a much nicer Bolt adapter. I wonder why... Maybe performance and quality starts at the first point of entry, the power supply.
> 
> And the casing does have something to do with dissipating heat. Not just in material but in overall design with the venting and fan. Last I checked, metal does a better job at dissipating heat than plastic. Unless I missed all those plastic heat sinks somewhere. So feel free to grab a thermometer and test the boxes side by side under similar loads for an extended period of time and give us your thermal readings. We're all anxious to hear your findings.


Yes, we get that.


dbpaddler said:


> Oh well... Done with the back and forth. Your beliefs/opinions are irrelevant to my actual instances and the ones I've read from others. No reason to entertain the topic further.


And yet you now have done so, in 3 more posts, when others indeed have moved on.  But thank you (genuinely spoken) for the additional details that you have noted, rather than simply generalized claims that something is cheap or trash-like (not your exact words).


----------



## Fofer

Anecdotal, sure, but I’ve compared them directly and the performance of the cheapie Roamio basic was laggy while the Roamio Plus was not. What this has to do with preroll ads I do not know, but any leftover quibbling here feels like it’s coming from people merely trying to justify their decision to have bought the cheapie Roamio.

If they’re not even running TE4 and they’re not even getting preRoll ads, then the continued perseveration over the topic in this thread is not only off-topic, it’s annoying and rude.


----------



## NashGuy

dswallow said:


> It's a matter of trust, too. I've lost trust in TiVo and hardware support, especially long-term, and most especially in their [in]ability to support multiple providers even beyond the first successful round of begging for app development. TiVo has proven, time and again, they do not offer long-term ecosystem support, and with the TiVo Stream can't even manage to come out of the gate providing ecosystem support of one of their own product lines. This is a dead company right now, devoid of any development talent or even the desire to have talent.
> 
> At this point, they should open source it all and let the community do what they can't or won't.


I'm not sure how to put this delicately but TiVo retail DVR users just don't matter any more. You're an irrelevant little shrinking niche of the market that will have zero meaningful impact on the fate of TiVo/Xperi. You're not who the TiVo Stream 4K is aimed at, which is why making it work with the existing TiVo ecosystem is beside the point.

As I see it, this product is just another option for folks interested in buying a standalone streaming device, specifically one that runs Google Android TV. The only other such device on the market that supports 4K and Dolby Vision is the Nvidia Shield TV, priced at $150. Meanwhile, TiVo's streamer will start out at $50 before (supposedly) going to its regular price of $70.

I doubt it'll be all that successful, given that so many folks already own similarly priced Amazon Fire TV and Roku devices, though. I might end up buying one though, as I'd like to try Android TV.


----------



## dbpaddler

Mikeguy said:


> Not to belabor this issue, but you are. I just dislike seeing unsupported claims, without a technological basis, which can lead to false impressions for others. And indeed, if there is a basis, I'd like to see that as well (apart from just an idiosyncratic experience, but which itself still _is _important to note--but it doesn't necessarily then generalize to an entire class). And in the world of technology, when one is claiming a failure of tech. performance, "it's the same chipset" and the same internal components is kind of important.
> 
> Yes, we get that.
> 
> And yet you now have done so, in 3 more posts, when others indeed have moved on.  But thank you (genuinely spoken) for the additional details that you have noted, rather than simply generalized claims that something is cheap or trash-like (not your exact words).


So I'll go against my grain one more time.

If they're so identical on the inside, please tell me where is the Basic's power supply? Tell me where to plug in my AC cord on the back of the Basic. Or tell me where the cheapest POS Chinese power supply they could find gets plugged in to the back of the Plus/Pro. Or why there are multiple threads about replacement wall warts for the Basic with many recommendations to use the Bolt one which happens to be what Tivo sent me to replace the defective ones for the Basics.

How's that for unsupported? 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

dbpaddler said:


> So I'll go against my grain one more time.
> 
> If they're so identical on the inside, please tell me where is the Basic's power supply? Tell me where to plug in my AC cord on the back of the Basic. Or tell me where the cheapest POS Chinese power supply they could find gets plugged in to the back of the Plus/Pro. Or why there are multiple threads about replacement wall warts for the Basic with many recommendations to use the Bolt one which happens to be what Tivo sent me to replace the defective ones for the Basics.
> 
> How's that for unsupported?


Oh, no, I'll concede the power supply, I'm certainly not going to defend it (although I've had no issue with mine--and my Netgear router power supply seems to die every couple of years). But as to the box as a whole being cheap/not working well with TE4, I just haven't seen or heard it and as something distinct from the Roamio Pro/Plus, apart from now (and again, I really am curious as to the TE4 issue and why it would be the case).


----------



## dbpaddler

NashGuy said:


> I'm not sure how to put this delicately but TiVo retail DVR users just don't matter any more. You're an irrelevant little shrinking niche of the market that will have zero meaningful impact on the fate of TiVo/Xperi. You're not who the TiVo Stream 4K is aimed at, which is why making it work with the existing TiVo ecosystem is beside the point.
> 
> As I see it, this product is just another option for folks interested in buying a standalone streaming device, specifically one that runs Google Android TV. The only other such device on the market that supports 4K and Dolby Vision is the Nvidia Shield TV, priced at $150. Meanwhile, TiVo's streamer will start out at $50 before (supposedly) going to its regular price of $70.
> 
> I doubt it'll be all that successful, given that so many folks already own similarly priced Amazon Fire TV and Roku devices, though. I might end up buying one though, as I'd like to try Android TV.


Think the people that truly care about DV are as much a niche as is tivo DVR people are a niche. I think the majority use the streaming device of whatever ecosystem they're mostly invested in or the one built into their TV. The Shield is niche. Roku is pretty much the only standalone streaming device that's not part of an ecosystem. I can't see Tivo making much of a dent in the streaming market.

If they tied it into the Mini Vox they'd have instant acceptance with our dying niche, but that's still a defined user base that would push others to it, give positive reviews of it and help sell the standalone S4k to others. And that could turn some of those users into potential DVR customers. They'd have a leg or two up on Recast and all the computer based options.

Think we're all just mad and sad because we see all this potential to return to the one box to rule them all. Yet we just see it all going to pot and spend more time looking for future alternatives than growing or continuing the tivo ecosystem. Sigh.

I then wonder, are we missing something? Do their execs see something we don't? Bringing android tv to their DVR system as well as the S4k won't aid in a prosperous return like we think it would? Are we that off as armchair marketers/executives or are they really just that obtuse or blind to what we think is the obvious path. They just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dbpaddler

Mikeguy said:


> Oh, no, I'll concede the power supply, I'm certainly not going to defend it (although I've had no issue with mine--and my Netgear router power supply seems to die every couple of years). But as to the box as a whole being cheap/not working well with TE4, I just haven't seen or heard it and as something distinct from the Roamio Pro/Plus, apart from now (and again, I really am curious as to the TE4 issue and why it would be the case).


I used to roam threads for the Basic all the time. Between supporting them and owning one, I saw more complaint threads then I did for the Pro which I also own. I won't touch the Bolt as that had plenty of complaints to it. I had a loud fan which got corrected. So I knock wood on that luck, and I probably just jinxed myseld. I haven't frequented Basic threads since the last one got replaced with a Bolt. I also haven't had to roam. Threads for the Bolt, but I won't jinx myself there either with my customers. So I can't attest to TE4 issues en masse. I will say my one customer did have TE4 issues. I didn't even know they updated to it until I had another trip to investigate an issue. And they had a bad power supply, a new bolt power supply didn't rectify the box issues, and they got upgraded to a Bolt. Thankfully close to five years of use paid for the basic and then some. Now they want to stream prime which is the worst on OG Mini's. Would be more seamless on a MV, but not sure they want to put out for them. Could buy a few on the current deal for $120 and see if they want to and return them or sell them if not. If they upgraded the MV with S4k, it'd be a no brainer. I just feel bad asking anyone I've helped to invest more into the ecosystem at this stage.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dswallow

NashGuy said:


> I'm not sure how to put this delicately but TiVo retail DVR users just don't matter any more. You're an irrelevant little shrinking niche of the market that will have zero meaningful impact on the fate of TiVo/Xperi. You're not who the TiVo Stream 4K is aimed at, which is why making it work with the existing TiVo ecosystem is beside the point.
> 
> As I see it, this product is just another option for folks interested in buying a standalone streaming device, specifically one that runs Google Android TV. The only other such device on the market that supports 4K and Dolby Vision is the Nvidia Shield TV, priced at $150. Meanwhile, TiVo's streamer will start out at $50 before (supposedly) going to its regular price of $70.
> 
> I doubt it'll be all that successful, given that so many folks already own similarly priced Amazon Fire TV and Roku devices, though. I might end up buying one though, as I'd like to try Android TV.


My point still stands; TiVo could've stuck that in there at little no cost, but they didn't, most likely because they've just got no talent left to do that. So if we can't even trust them to build upon the ecosystem they own, how can we trust them to build upon external ecosystems, especially when they've shown an inability to do just that over and over again in the past. They need to step up their game and demonstrate why they're trustworthy now. Because otherwise, they're not.


----------



## NashGuy

dswallow said:


> My point still stands; TiVo could've stuck that in there at little no cost, but they didn't, most likely because they've just got no talent left to do that. So if we can't even trust them to build upon the ecosystem they own, how can we trust them to build upon external ecosystems, especially when they've shown an inability to do just that over and over again in the past. They need to step up their game and demonstrate why they're trustworthy now. Because otherwise, they're not.


And my point still stands: they don't care about proving how trustworthy they are to the dwindling little group of people invested in their current ecosystem. Whether they'll succeed in their pivot toward the streaming world is a separate question. (I doubt it.) But whatever hurt feelings or disappointment that exists among longtime TiVo owners who post on this board will likely have nothing to do with the success of their streaming dongle one way or the other.


----------



## trip1eX

I don't think it's a case of Tivo not being trustworthy.

IT's a case of them losing out to competition and change.


----------



## dbpaddler

trip1eX said:


> I don't think it's a case of Tivo not being trustworthy.
> 
> IT's a case of them losing out to competition and change.


To lose means you actually had to try. They've clearly shown they haven't tried. When you create a whole new product to react to the market and don't integrate it into your current business, alienating your current user base? That's not trying. That's just failing to do what's necessary to properly compete in today's market.

To make decisions with the Edge, completely separating out cable and OTA into separate boxes is a poor decision.

If you failed as miserly as they have over the past so many years, you weren't even making an effort to be in the race. When your user base sees what the right moves should've been and you don't... It's just wrong.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

dbpaddler said:


> When your user base sees what the right moves should've been and you don't... It's just wrong.


Rather they are going for another market (a much larger one) versus a user's tunnel vision which only sees what's _right_ for them.

If you actually want to take a look at the OTA DVR market (pay TV clearly dying) Amazon (via its Recast) could/will wipe out TiVo regardless of anything they could do. It would be silly to invest in such. Now with streaming the market is growing large enough a few small fish will probably be able survive in the ocean. Clearly one has a (possible) future and the other doesn't...


----------



## dbpaddler

Charles R said:


> Rather they are going for another market (a much larger one) versus a user's tunnel vision which only sees what's _right_ for them.
> 
> If you actually want to take a look at the OTA DVR market (pay TV clearly dying) Amazon (via its Recast) could/will wipe out TiVo regardless of anything they could do. It would be silly to invest in such. Now with streaming the market is growing large enough a few small fish will probably be able survive in the ocean. Clearly one has a (possible) future and the other doesn't...


Sorry. Don't agree. And I said as such above. Nobody outside of the current user base gives a rats ass about tivo. The S4k isn't ry bringing anything noteworthy to the market. It's just another streaming dongle in a crowded market. A vast majority of users use whatever dongle works best in their main ecosystem. Anything tivo attempts to bring to differentiate themselves will be adopted by their competitors anyway.

I don't see how recast will crush tivo. It still has issues. It's still wireless. It still has transcoding limitations. It still can't do cable. It still just doesn't play live TV when you turn it on. I know I'm not alone in playing the cable deal game where I'll bounce to whatever deal is best on a yearly basis. When OTA wins, it wins. When cable has a deal that includes channels, I go back to cable. Can't do that with recast. Tivo is still king there. And cable cards will still be around for quite a few years because cable companies are just painfully slow to adapt.

S4k just alienates an entire user base that goes back decades. If anyone was going to buy into a new tivo product, it would be them. The average streaming user doesn't read tech blogs. They go with what's convenient, and that goes to the above of what is most convenient to their current ecosystem. So you have tivo banking on breaking into a new market for them with a non groundbreaking product that not even their current user base will use be it out of spite, distrust or so on.

So good luck there trying to be a major player. And with no future of the DVR ecosystem growing, current users will just keep dropping out as their equipment no longer fits their needs or dies. Or they'll just keep buying used and prolong their current setup for as little cash outlay as possible. None of which helps tivo.

I'd be happy to be wrong, and feel free to point out why. I just don't see them anywhere on the podium in the market anytime in the near future. Amazon, Apple, Google and Roku. Which one will they surpass with the S4k? Or will they be happy being fifth?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

dbpaddler said:


> It's just another streaming dongle in a crowded market.


Crowded because it's a (large) market... hence a chance.



> I don't see how recast will crush tivo. It still has issues.


Recast's performance is virtually irrelevant. Amazon is Amazon and if that isn't enough it's cheaper. You make the case why they will win below.



> S4k just alienates an entire user base that goes back decades. If anyone was going to buy into a new tivo product, it would be them.


That number is so low it's virtually irrelevant - certainly not worth tailoring your product to and risk aliening the actual market you are going for.



> The average streaming user doesn't read tech blogs. They go with what's convenient, and that goes to the above of what is most convenient to their current ecosystem.


Exactly why TiVo can't win in the OTA DVR market and it's not large enough to survive as a small fish.



> So good luck there trying to be a major player.


You don't have to be a major player in a large market to exist... that's the point.

My take is TiVo is going where the numbers are and attempting to carve out a large enough niche to survive. Going forward clearly whatever niche they could carve out of the OTA DVR market wouldn't be enough for them to stay alive.


----------



## trip1eX

dbpaddler said:


> To lose means you actually had to try. They've clearly shown they haven't tried. When you create a whole new product to react to the market and don't integrate it into your current business, alienating your current user base? That's not trying. That's just failing to do what's necessary to properly compete in today's market.
> 
> To make decisions with the Edge, completely separating out cable and OTA into separate boxes is a poor decision.
> 
> If you failed as miserly as they have over the past so many years, you weren't even making an effort to be in the race. When your user base sees what the right moves should've been and you don't... It's just wrong.


Just because they are not doing what you want them to do doesn't mean they are not trying.

The reality is the retail dvr has been a tiny market for many years. The cable dvr is going away. There is some market for an OTA dvr. And another reality is Tivo still ranks among the best choices in both.

They've played with their hands tied behind their backs in the cable market for a long time now. Cable has control over the customers and the ease of setup process and can hide the costs of a dvr in the cable bill etc. Tivo hasn't been able to fight a fair fight in that area since the SEries 2 days.

We see the right moves because our imaginations have unlimited resources and talent and our imaginations are selfish too.

Also poor decisions not the same as being untrustworthy and not trying.

Oh and they separated the cable from the OTA dvr many generations ago. Maybe it started in the Roamio era. And a big reason for that was the tuner tech from what I remember. Plus there is cost to consider. And their data would have told them how many customers moved back and forth between OTA and cable ie was it worth it overall to include both.

None of this means they aren't late to the game with streaming. They should made this box ~5 years ago. Hedged their bets then. But it's hard for companies with legacy businesses to think different. Look at the cable companies. Finally starting to see streaming as something that could take out their video business. Look at the big media companies who finally are putting together streaming services ~10 years after Netflix. Look at satellite and how even Dish's Charlie Ergen sees the linear satellite tv business going away.

A lot of people are slow to react and/or nothing they can do to stop the change.

like it or not the moves to create the ad UI and ad-supporting free tv streaming service are moves to adapt to new realities.


----------



## dbpaddler

trip1eX said:


> Just because they are not doing what you want them to do doesn't mean they are not trying.
> 
> The reality is the retail dvr has been a tiny market for many years. The cable dvr is going away. There is some market for an OTA dvr. And another reality is Tivo still ranks among the best choices in both.
> 
> They've played with their hands tied behind their backs in the cable market for a long time now. Cable has control over the customers and the ease of setup process and can hide the costs of a dvr in the cable bill etc. Tivo hasn't been able to fight a fair fight in that area since the SEries 2 days.
> 
> We see the right moves because our imaginations have unlimited resources and talent and our imaginations are selfish too.
> 
> Also poor decisions not the same as being untrustworthy and not trying.
> 
> Oh and they separated the cable from the OTA dvr many generations ago. Maybe it started in the Roamio era. And a big reason for that was the tuner tech from what I remember. Plus there is cost to consider. And their data would have told them how many customers moved back and forth between OTA and cable ie was it worth it overall to include both.
> 
> None of this means they aren't late to the game with streaming. They should made this box ~5 years ago. Hedged their bets then. But it's hard for companies with legacy businesses to think different. Look at the cable companies. Finally starting to see streaming as something that could take out their video business. Look at the big media companies who finally are putting together streaming services 5-10 years after Netflix. Look at satellite and how even Dish's Charlie Ergen sees the linear satellite tv business going away.
> 
> A lot of people are slow to react and/or nothing they can do to stop the change.


Sorry. But this isn't just about me. This is the opinion of many around here.

And no, they haven't separated cable and OTA ages ago. I'm not talking doing both simultaneously like the series 2 and premiere. The roamio basic could handle either/or. The Bolt can handle either/or. The Edge, nope. You have to choose one or the other. And I'm not alone in playing the deal game. Can't expect someone to pay over over $500 for a box and be tied to one or the other.

And don't think anyone cares about "dvr costs" from the cable company. It's the multiple boxes that really cost money. They roll dvr into their deals. They don't hide the multiple box fees. They're very up front about it. At least Comcast, FIOS and a few others I see in Jersey. Heck, Fios won't even give you one free cable card. Nobody is really focused on actual "dvr service costs" from the cable company.

And again, you have an existing user base that is pretty much your sales force. You have capable hardware in the mini vox, the Bolt and the new edge. You had a way to bridge the past/present with the future, and you blew it.

Big execsutives make millions a year to have their finger on the pulse of the industry to steer the company in the right direction. Not sure why you want to make excuse after excuse for them. Knee jerk reactions to future products. Subpar hardware for the past so many years. Subpar software. Now advertisements slipped in.

Yeah, those are just solely my opinions.  Do you roam around this forum at all? But I'm the only one with these opinions. And then you excuse every wrong turn they've made in the past decade because this business thing is hard...

And talking about supporting legacy devices and thinking about the future? We're not talking Palm and windows supporting their legacy OS's on resistive tech while Apple swooped in with a clean slate to steal the show on new capacitive tech. The Bolt and Mini Vox aren't obsolete resistive tech. Streaming apps aren't suddenly a thing that came to light in the past couple years. People have been clamoring for more streaming options and improved current options for years.

And not that I've used a cable box in a long while, but even Comcast's X1 box has more streaming options than we do. They even adopted the master/slave setup like tivo, and I believe fios has done the same. Outside of competitive issues, it seems some of these boxes have more streaming options than we do.

Bottom line is they've needed to do a better job for years. And they're hanging their hat on one device to break them into a very mature market. They're not bringing anything that's a real game changer. They're things that are just nice. Are they ginng to steal customers from Apple? Doubtful. Are people going to dump their Fire cubes and sticks on ebay for a S4k? Probably not. Roku owners? Nah. Chromecast users? Once you're accustomed to using your phone as your main interface, I doubt you'll go to a remote or a combination of remote and phone/tablet since it will cast. But that would probably be your most probable audience to steal because you can do both, cast and a have local interface.

Are they going to have a big advertising campaign extolling the sickness of the interface over the competition? Or will they rely on CNET and tech radar to review it and put out the word?

Regardless, they have an uphill battle ahead of them. They very well could be Palm. S4k could be webOS. It could be the better mousetrap and fail miserably, relegated to being used for its patents and ultimately a TV interface with LG.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## mschnebly

Maybe TiVo just doesnt want to sell the old style DVRs with a HDD anymore. Cloud DVRs are far cheaper and where everyone is headed.
If a tornado blows your house away your recordings just keep on recording and you can even watch them from that crowded school auditorium they have you crowded into.


----------



## trip1eX

dbpaddler said:


> Sorry. But this isn't just about me. This is the opinion of many around here.
> 
> And no, they haven't separated cable and OTA ages ago. I'm not talking doing both simultaneously like the series 2 and premiere. The roamio basic could handle either/or. The Bolt can handle either/or. The Edge, nope. You have to choose one or the other. And I'm not alone in playing the deal game. Can't expect someone to pay over over $500 for a box and be tied to one or the other.
> 
> And don't think anyone cares about "dvr costs" from the cable company. It's the multiple boxes that really cost money. They roll dvr into their deals. They don't hide the multiple box fees. They're very up front about it. At least Comcast, FIOS and a few others I see in Jersey. Heck, Fios won't even give you one free cable card. Nobody is really focused on actual "dvr service costs" from the cable company.
> 
> And again, you have an existing user base that is pretty much your sales force. You have capable hardware in the mini vox, the Bolt and the new edge. You had a way to bridge the past/present with the future, and you blew it.
> 
> Big execsutives make millions a year to have their finger on the pulse of the industry to steer the company in the right direction. Not sure why you want to make excuse after excuse for them. Knee jerk reactions to future products. Subpar hardware for the past so many years. Subpar software. Now advertisements slipped in.
> 
> Yeah, those are just solely my opinions.  Do you roam around this forum at all? But I'm the only one with these opinions. And then you excuse every wrong turn they've made in the past decade because this business thing is hard...
> 
> And talking about supporting legacy devices and thinking about the future? We're not talking Palm and windows supporting their legacy OS's on resistive tech while Apple swooped in with a clean slate to steal the show on new capacitive tech. The Bolt and Mini Vox aren't obsolete resistive tech. Streaming apps aren't suddenly a thing that came to light in the past couple years. People have been clamoring for more streaming options and improved current options for years.
> 
> And not that I've used a cable box in a long while, but even Comcast's X1 box has more streaming options than we do. They even adopted the master/slave setup like tivo, and I believe fios has done the same. Outside of competitive issues, it seems some of these boxes have more streaming options than we do.
> 
> Bottom line is they've needed to do a better job for years. And they're hanging their hat on one device to break them into a very mature market. They're not bringing anything that's a real game changer. They're things that are just nice. Are they ginng to steal customers from Apple? Doubtful. Are people going to dump their Fire cubes and sticks on ebay for a S4k? Probably not. Roku owners? Nah. Chromecast users? Once you're accustomed to using your phone as your main interface, I doubt you'll go to a remote or a combination of remote and phone/tablet since it will cast. But that would probably be your most probable audience to steal because you can do both, cast and a have local interface.
> 
> Are they going to have a big advertising campaign extolling the sickness of the interface over the competition? Or will they rely on CNET and tech radar to review it and put out the word?
> 
> Regardless, they have an uphill battle ahead of them. They very well could be Palm. S4k could be webOS. It could be the better mousetrap and fail miserably, relegated to being used for its patents and ultimately a TV interface with LG.


You sound like Rumplestiltskin.  Where have you been for the past 10+ years? Tivo has been Palm for a long time now. Bolt is obsolete tech. The good cable Roamio couldn't do OTA. Tivo has had a hard time competing against the cable dvr for over 10 years.

I feel like I'm repeating myself though. Just read my first post again for my reply.


----------



## Chuck_IV

dswallow said:


> It's a matter of trust, too. I've lost trust in TiVo and hardware support, especially long-term, and most especially in their [in]ability to support multiple providers even beyond the first successful round of begging for app development. TiVo has proven, time and again, they do not offer long-term ecosystem support, and with the TiVo Stream can't even manage to come out of the gate providing ecosystem support of one of their own product lines. This is a dead company right now, devoid of any development talent or even the desire to have talent.
> 
> At this point, they should open source it all and let the community do what they can't or won't.


This. Trust is a BIG issue for me with TiVo. They have promised a lot over the last years and not delivered. Never mind the fact that their new attitude towards their customers isn't very good.

When I look at TiVo's attempt at a 4K streamer to compete with Chromecast and others, my first thought is, how well and long will it be supported. Based on their track record, I don't have much confidence.

I have an Nvidia shield on my two main TV's as the Shield is second to none for streaming with Plex. I have an Apple TV 4K on one TV for the split screen viewing of the NHL and MLB paks. I also got a free year of Apple TV+ so it was a win win.

I cannot see the TiVo surpassing any of these in what it can do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

trip1eX said:


> The good cable Roamio couldn't do OTA.


I feel my basic Roamio is good. It can do either OTA or cable.


----------



## Tony_T

mschnebly said:


> Maybe TiVo just doesnt want to sell the old style DVRs with a HDD anymore. Cloud DVRs are far cheaper and where everyone is headed.
> If a tornado blows your house away your recordings just keep on recording and you can even watch them from that crowded school auditorium they have you crowded into.


Commercial SKIP is clunky with CloudDVR (and AutoSKIP is non-existent).


----------



## Mikeguy

trip1eX said:


> The Bolt is obsolete tech.


And yet still seems to be doing pretty well in my living room, every day.


----------



## Mikeguy

mschnebly said:


> Maybe TiVo just doesnt want to sell the old style DVRs with a HDD anymore. *Cloud DVRs are far cheaper and where everyone is headed.*
> If a tornado blows your house away your recordings just keep on recording and you can even watch them from that crowded school auditorium they have you crowded into.


TiVo explored that and then abandoned it at the last minute a few years back (after some production and even packaging), with its Mavrik device.


----------



## trip1eX

Mikeguy said:


> And yet still seems to be doing pretty well in my living room, every day.


No way! You're lying.


----------



## dbpaddler

Mikeguy said:


> And yet still seems to be doing pretty well in my living room, every day.


Not sure what would make it obsolete. It's my daily driver too.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dbpaddler

trip1eX said:


> You sound like Rumplestiltskin.  Where have you been for the past 10+ years? Tivo has been Palm for a long time now. Bolt is obsolete tech. The good cable Roamio couldn't do OTA. Tivo has had a hard time competing against the cable dvr for over 10 years.
> 
> I feel like I'm repeating myself though. Just read my first post again for my reply.


Have they really tried to compete? When's the last time you saw any sort of commercial campaign for tivo? When has there been any push? I imagine many don't even know they still exist. Post a deal on SD and half the posts are people not knowing tivo is still a thing.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

Obsolete tech (as originally posted) is when most components are EOL (End of Life) and have been replaced with if a newer revision. Not you have to stop using it...


----------



## JoeKustra

dbpaddler said:


> Have they really tried to compete? When's the last time you saw any sort of commercial campaign for tivo? When has there been any push? I imagine many don't even know they still exist. Post a deal on SD and half the posts are people not knowing tivo is still a thing.


Today on two different billboards. Incessant commercials on my cable. I'd estimate there are a dozen different commercials.


----------



## Mikeguy

Perhaps because I do OTA, I can't recall the last TiVo ad I saw. Many, many years. And nothing in physical form: billboards, magazines, etc.


----------



## dbpaddler

JoeKustra said:


> Today on two different billboards. Incessant commercials on my cable. I'd estimate there are a dozen different commercials.


I haven't seen a Tivo commercial in ages. Print or TV.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

If you are _wondering_ about their ad budget compare it to similar sized corporations via their financial statements...


----------



## trip1eX

dbpaddler said:


> Have they really tried to compete? When's the last time you saw any sort of commercial campaign for tivo? When has there been any push? I imagine many don't even know they still exist. Post a deal on SD and half the posts are people not knowing tivo is still a thing.


Are you saying they are flush with money to throw at commercial campaigns? You gotta compete with what you have. PLus you do realize they have a product and IP business. The IP business is their money maker. The product business is 90%+ if not 95% small MSOs from mostly overseas.

And you really think all that's stopping an exec from padding his salary with many more millions is spending the company's money on an ad campaign and he doesn't do it?

The people on SD want a deal. They like it when Tivo puts old refurbs on sale with lifetime for $200. lol. They don't (want) to pay $1000 for an Edge with lifetime. Nevermind that a few people in an SD thread is nothing.

IT seems like you have been asleep for 10 years just like Tivo has.


----------



## ufo4sale

In my universe TiVo is the number one selling commodity on the market. With it's original content called The MR Brain Show. Just imagine for a second that TiVo is richer than Amazon.


----------



## dbpaddler

trip1eX said:


> Are you saying they are flush with money to throw at commercial campaigns? You gotta compete with what you have. PLus you do realize they have a product and IP business. The IP business is their money maker. The product business is 90%+ if not 95% small MSOs from mostly overseas.
> 
> And you really think all that's stopping an exec from padding his salary with many more millions is spending the company's money on an ad campaign and he doesn't do it?
> 
> The people on SD want a deal. They like it when Tivo puts old refurbs on sale with lifetime for $200. lol. They don't (want) to pay $1000 for an Edge with lifetime. Nevermind that a few people in an SD thread is nothing.
> 
> IT seems like you have been asleep for 10 years just like Tivo has.


Gee.. People on SD want deals? Who knew? 

The point was people don't know tivo is still a thing. The S4k is a tangible product. The Edge is a tangible product. People can't buy it if they don't know about it. They just don't walk into best buy and say I need a DVR system, what do you recommend?

I know exactly what they've done for ten years. Just haven't given a rat's ass about it to bother sticking my two cents in before. Now that that user base is being left further out in the cold than even before, it's starting to annoy. I'm probably one fo the few that doesn't really care about ads. But I care about a completely cohesive system and not changing inputs and devices when I change gears on what I'm watching unless it's disc based.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## trip1eX

dbpaddler said:


> The point was people don't know tivo is still a thing. The S4k is a tangible product. The Edge is a tangible product. People can't buy it if they don't know about it. They just don't walk into best buy and say I need a DVR system, what do you recommend?
> 
> I know exactly what they've done for ten years. Just haven't given a rat's ass about it to bother sticking my two cents in before. Now that that user base is being left further out in the cold than even before, it's starting to annoy. I'm probably one fo the few that doesn't really care about ads. But I care about a completely cohesive system and not changing inputs and devices when I change gears on what I'm watching unless it's disc based.


That's because people don't buy dvrs. They rent them from the cable and satellite company. Hence Tivo's position in the retail market for cable dvrs the past 10 years.

The $1000 dvr is a hard sell when the cable or satellite company gives you a free dvr up front and charges you $10/mo or whatever or hides the cost in the cable bill or doesn't charge you at all for a year etc. And then they come to your house and hook it up for you for free on top of that. Tivo never been able to compete with that.

YOu have a cohesive system. IF you want to remain on cable they have a system for you. If you want to record OTA they have a system for you. And now they have a product for the streaming video service market.


----------



## Charles R

dbpaddler said:


> The point was people don't know tivo is still a thing.


That's because it's no longer a _thing_. Legacy pay-TV is dying a fast death across all markets and OTA isn't going to be adopted by the younger market (unless it's via their phone ). Just might be why TiVo is trying to hit the streaming market... at least potential customers exist.


----------



## JonD1999

Just now seeing the ads showing up on my Roamio OTA. Not happy. Time to upgrade to Amazon FireTV recast or something else I guess. Well, we had a good run this past decade TiVo, best of luck in the future.


----------



## dbpaddler

Bye Felicia. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

JonD1999 said:


> Just now seeing the ads showing up on my Roamio OTA. Not happy. Time to upgrade to Amazon FireTV recast or something else I guess. Well, we had a good run this past decade TiVo, best of luck in the future.


You can call and opt out, too. At least for now. Just in case you didn't know.


----------



## dbpaddler

Or go back to the old interface. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JLGomez2667

JonD1999 said:


> Just now seeing the ads showing up on my Roamio OTA. Not happy. Time to upgrade to Amazon FireTV recast or something else I guess. Well, we had a good run this past decade TiVo, best of luck in the future.


U can call them and they will remove it probably temporarily because they said it might come back in a update.. but no matter what there is no way if removing the banner if there bullcrap channels on the guide.. my suggestion do exactly what u did wait until the recast is on special i got it last week at 189 the 1tb version and no it's at like 290 or so.. but if u dont have a firetv stick at all there r or where on special the 4k version and the regular also and the r very good stay away like a virus on the new cube fire and the firestick 4k stick is just as good as the pendant 4k is . Aldo if I can find and its hard to the old flat about 4x4x1 inches original firetv 4k that came also in bundles with a game controller that one is the best. Easily hackable and gas a usb and sd port on the back of ur stuff. Home this helped later


----------



## dbpaddler

Is recast really an "upgrade" when picture quality isn't as good, and you have to buy all new equipment, and you won't be able to sell your tivo stuff for anything near value with Covid going on. And you lose the ability to just turn on the TV and see live TV. To me that's one of the big tivo selling points. Live TV is just there. Not turn on TV, navigate to the app and select. I suppose you could script it with a harmony, but I don't even use harmony anymore except in the the theater room. So I wouldn't want to go back to a harmony for the other two setups just to be able to have live TV when I turn the TV on.

But that's just me. And I'm still on the old interface so it's a non issue. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## cwoody222

Started to show up on my Roamio Plus yesterday. No ads yet, just the arrow screen. I don’t see it as a big deal yet.

Still not on my A93 Mini.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

My problem isn't so much the arrow screen per se as the apparent change in resolution, which means it takes a lot longer to actually get to the show (first the arrow screen, then the black screen while the resolution adjusts).


----------



## aaronwt

Crap!! My ads were finally gone after three calls to TiVo. But last week I had to change the hard drive out in my TiVo on FiOS. And now the preroll ads are back. 

Sent from my Nexus 7(16GB)


----------



## tim_m

cwoody222 said:


> Started to show up on my Roamio Plus yesterday. No ads yet, just the arrow screen. I don't see it as a big deal yet.
> 
> Still not on my A93 Mini.


It is hit and miss. On average i am seeing 1 ad a night.


----------



## pfiagra

Has anyone successfully opted out of preroll ads via the chat function on TiVo’s website?


----------



## Donbadabon

Define 'successfully'. lol

When I opted out I used the chat function and it worked great! Until a few weeks later when the ads came back again.


----------



## RoamioJeff

The answer may be buried in the thread, but are these ads present on Roamios still on the old user interface?


----------



## kdmorse

RoamioJeff said:


> The answer may be buried in the thread, but are these ads present on Roamios still on the old user interface?


The old interface remains unmolested across all hardware platforms. It will never get new features, it will never get its bugs fixed, but on the other hand - it's not being used as an ad platform. At that point it's a personal decision, and there's no wrong answer.


----------



## RoamioJeff

kdmorse said:


> The old interface remains unmolested across all hardware platforms. It will never get new features, it will never get its bugs fixed, but on the other hand - it's not being used as an ad platform. At that point it's a personal decision, and there's no wrong answer.


Thank you!


----------



## Beryl

They keep coming back. My Bolt has them back (3rd time) but shorter — 2 seconds. No arrow. I guess I’m supposed to ignore those. TiVo will be history in my home this time next year.


----------



## TKnight206

Having pre-roll ads before a recording makes absolutely no sense. Call and complain. This sort of thing tarnishes the TiVo name.


----------



## Fofer

It’s one thing to make us call in to “opt out.” Having to “opt out” more than once though? That’s just beyond the pale. 

This is a company that has completely lost its way. For shame.


----------



## DeltaOne

cwoody222 said:


> Started to show up on my Roamio Plus yesterday. No ads yet, just the arrow screen. I don't see it as a big deal yet.


I started seeing pre-roll ads on my Roamio Plus today. Sorta. After starting a recording to play I get the gray screen with the large arrow for about two or three seconds, then what looks like a blank live window in the upper right corner, then the recording begins to play.

Worse yet, trying to play a recording that is still recording (say, 30 minutes in to a 60 minute show) gets the large arrow then an error message says something about "can't play now" "try again later" and an OK button. But the TiVo is locked up...you're stuck. Only way out I've seen is the trick to quit the GUI (three thumbs down and then press enter/last).

I'll be calling TiVo tomorrow (Monday?) to opt out of the pre-roll ads. Or I'll roll back to the older version...not sure yet.

I'll start a thread over on the Roamio board too.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Downgrade or keep putting up with this crap. Send a message.


----------



## Adam C.

I got the pre-roll ads on my Roamio OTA last week. I called customer service and requested to have the ads removed. I was on the phone for less than 2 minutes and the ads were gone within about 12 hours.


----------



## DeltaOne

Adam C. said:


> I got the pre-roll ads on my Roamio OTA last week. I called customer service and requested to have the ads removed. I was on the phone for less than 2 minutes and the ads were gone within about 12 hours.


Thanks. I called TiVo this morning. Got their standard "did you press skip?" question. In the end they said the ads would be gone within three days...I plan on rebooting and/or forcing a service connection tomorrow morning to see if they're gone.


----------



## Fofer

Adam C. said:


> I got the pre-roll ads on my Roamio OTA last week. I called customer service and requested to have the ads removed. I was on the phone for less than 2 minutes and the ads were gone within about 12 hours.


Yes, but what we've learned is that after the next software update or revision, they come back, and you have to call again to "opt out. " Which is kind of pathetic if you ask me.


----------



## Adam C.

Fofer said:


> Yes, but what we've learned is that after the next software update or revision, they come back, and you have to call again to "opt out. " Which is kind of pathetic if you ask me.


Yeah that's annoying, but a 2-minute call a few times a year is still better than dealing with the ads all day.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

The weird thing is, I've been seeing the annoying grey arrow screen (and resultant black screen for the resolution shift), but I haven't seen a single ad...


----------



## Adam C.

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The weird thing is, I've been seeing the annoying grey arrow screen (and resultant black screen for the resolution shift), but I haven't seen a single ad...


I experienced that when I was playing back shows that were recorded before the software update. Anything recorded after the update displayed the full ads. It may have just been coincidence.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Adam C. said:


> I experienced that when I was playing back shows that were recorded before the software update. Anything recorded after the update displayed the full ads. It may have just been coincidence.


Not for me. I generally watch things pretty soon after recording them (within a day or two), and I haven't seen any ads.


----------



## Mikeguy

JonD1999 said:


> Just now seeing the ads showing up on my Roamio OTA. Not happy. Time to upgrade to Amazon FireTV recast or something else I guess. Well, we had a good run this past decade TiVo, best of luck in the future.


Or call TiVo Customer Service and request that they discontinue the pre-roll ads (they will). Or sidegrade to the TE3 UI, where there are no ads (note: you will lose your shows in the process, and so copy any that you want to save to your PC first).


----------



## mattyro7878

cwoody222 said:


> Started to show up on my Roamio Plus yesterday. No ads yet, just the arrow screen. I don't see it as a big deal yet.
> 
> Still not on my A93 Mini.


neither did I until the ads started and seemed like things werent smooth. Sure enough my box restarted as the ad was trying to run. Happened twice. I emailed support. They said theyd remove.


----------



## mattyro7878

Also...I dont think the Roamio line is ready for this. The ads came on nice and smooth on my Bolt. My Roamio Plus however seems to be fighting it all the way to the point of restarting.


----------



## Fofer

The fact that they can’t even get the pre-roll to play stably on the platforms they infect it with, is probably the most pathetic part of all. Causing a reboot?

How singularly, utterly pathetic.


----------



## Noelmel

For everyone getting them now on Roamio did the end of your version change. I know most of us have 21.9.7.v3 but after that I have 840-6-840 I’ve seen earlier in the thread and in others reporting the end of the version having letters 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DeltaOne

Noelmel said:


> For everyone getting them now on Roamio did the end of your version change. I know most of us have 21.9.7.v3 but after that I have 840-6-840


I recently received the pre-roll ads on my Roamio, running 21.9.7.v3. The rest of the number "840-6-840" identifies your hardware, it has nothing to do with the software version number.


----------



## Noelmel

DeltaOne said:


> I recently received the pre-roll ads on my Roamio, running 21.9.7.v3. The rest of the number "840-6-840" identifies your hardware, it has nothing to do with the software version number.


Ok gotcha thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

The ads just started on my Roamio (I've had the grey arrow screen for several days)...


----------



## cwoody222

mattyro7878 said:


> Also...I dont think the Roamio line is ready for this. The ads came on nice and smooth on my Bolt. My Roamio Plus however seems to be fighting it all the way to the point of restarting.


Are you having problems with the actual ads or just the arrow screen?

I'm only seeing the arrows, no ads yet, but my Roamio handles it fine.


----------



## ElJay

My Bolt spontaneously reboots every few days as it tries to play these preroll ads.


----------



## Fofer

No one is minding the store. TiVo is rudderless.

What a sad end.


----------



## mattyro7878

cwoody222 said:


> Are you having problems with th3 actual ads or jus5 the arrow screen?
> 
> I'm only seeing the arrows, no ads yet, but my Roamio handles it fine.


I was just seeing the arrow. I have seen 5 pre rolls with 2 causing a restart. I just put on Better Call Saul and no arrow no nothing. I guess for a while at least I am done with pre rolls.


----------



## modnar

I just got preroll ads tonight on my Romario. I’ll definitely be calling TiVo to get these disabled. 19+ years as a customer, and it’s sad I have to do this.


----------



## DeltaOne

modnar said:


> I just got preroll ads tonight on my Romario. I'll definitely be calling TiVo to get these disabled. 19+ years as a customer, and it's sad I have to do this.


I called in Sunday morning to opt out of the pre-roll ads. I noticed they were gone on Monday afternoon.

I've seen reports of the pre-roll ads coming back after a TiVo OS update and/or replacing the hard disk. I kind of understand them coming back after a hard disk replacement. I'll be upset if they come back after a TiVo OS update.


----------



## cwoody222

Has anyone successfully blocked the ads using a firewall or blocking addresses some other way?

My BF has had the arrow screen on his Bolt for months but has never seen an an and he runs a fairly complex server/router/firewall setup.

He installed a similar setup at my house just before I started getting the arrow screen so I’m wondering if he somehow found the magic formula to avoid the ads?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

cwoody222 said:


> Has anyone successfully blocked the ads using a firewall or blocking addresses some other way?
> 
> My BF has had the arrow screen on his Bolt for months but has never seen an an and he runs a fairly complex server/router/firewall setup.
> 
> He installed a similar setup at my house just before I started getting the arrow screen so I'm wondering if he somehow found the magic formula to avoid the ads?


If you search on here I think some folks had luck with a raspberry pi blocker but I can't recall if that caused other issues too.


----------



## bellbm

just started getting the ads on my Roamio OTA, was getting the arrow last week, thought something was going bad with my unit, then the ads started yesterday. I don't mind the ad so much (can easily skip), but the minor delay in starting a recording is really annoying. Did a chat session to have them disabled, let's see if that happens.


----------



## zyzzx

For the past week, my Roamio has been showing the arrow without ads so far. The delay is extremely annoying, even without the ads.


----------



## zyzzx

I asked for the preroll ads to be disabled via chat. The chat took about 5 mins.


----------



## Charles R

I just got hit with the arrow/ads on my Roamio. I blocked (via Pi-hole) mm1.tivoservice.com and it appears to block both (along with the guide ads). The moment I unblocked mm1.tivoservice.com it was hit and the arrow/ads were back (the guide ads at times stay away for several days). If TiVo can't reach mm1.tivoservice.com it retries every 10 seconds... endlessly.

If I block just this domain prod.adgwy.tivo.com I get the arrow/no ads. Might want to block pixel.tivo.com as well... it get hits right after it attempts to retrieve the ad (prod.adgwy.tivo.com).


----------



## Jed1

My base Roamios are now getting the gray arrow and black screen before the recordings start. Noticed the gray arrow before the start of my NCIS recording. Recording of Love it or List it just had a black screen. Didn't see any ads.


----------



## hapster85

Seeing them on my Roamio OTA as of today. Definitely were not there yesterday.


----------



## tommiet

mattyro7878 said:


> I was just seeing the arrow. I have seen 5 pre rolls with 2 causing a restart. I just put on Better Call Saul and no arrow no nothing. I guess for a while at least I am done with pre rolls.


I also have had 2 cases in the last week where the ads failed to start when selecting a DVR event and it hung my BOLT. Unplug to reboot was the only fix.
POS....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I did a chat with customer support yesterday, and they said they'd be removing it.

I assume there will be another software update for that?


----------



## bearcat2000

Are these ads only when using Gen4 Hydra?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hapster85

tommiet said:


> I also have had 2 cases in the last week where the ads failed to start when selecting a DVR event and it hung my BOLT. Unplug to reboot was the only fix.
> POS....


The first time I saw the arrows, it caught me off guard. Took several seconds for the ad to begin, at which point I hit skip and my show started immediately. After that, I hit skip as soon as the arrows appeared. Seemed to be no need to wait for the ad to load.


----------



## pfiagra

bearcat2000 said:


> Are these ads only when using Gen4 Hydra?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes


----------



## bellbm

Once they are disabled, does the black arrow stop (and recordings start playing instantly)?


----------



## nrnoble

This pre-roll BS just started happening to me today. I give it three thumbs down. What are they thinking with this ad crap?

I question how legal it is for them to start inserting paid advertising into copyright content they don't own. It would be a bit like me starting a youTube channel and start making money from TV shows I record on my Tivo. Ok, maybe not exactly the same, but you get the idea.

IMHO, their Tivo+ project is very subpar quality when compared to other similar ad sponsored streaming networks, such a Pluto. If I could, I would remove Tivo+ from from my Tivo apps.

BTW, I pay for HBO, HULU Plus, Amazon Prime, CBS without Ads, because I don't want to be forced to sit through 2min-5min commercial breaks (20min-22min per hour), which is why I bought my first tivo in 1999.


----------



## nrnoble

Now I am curious if I record something from HBO, will Tivo insert commercials on premium channels?


----------



## HoTatII

nrnoble said:


> This pre-roll BS just started happening to me today. I give it three thumbs down. What are they thinking with this ad crap?
> 
> I question how legal it is for them to start inserting paid advertising into copyright content they don't own. It would be a bit like me starting a youTube channel and start making money from TV shows I record on my Tivo. Ok, maybe not exactly the same, but you get the idea. ...


They don't actually insert it into the content, but quickly steam it from a separate source (over the internet?) before the recorded content even begins playing.

This is why the boxes can lockup at times because the pre-roll ad system is very awkward of trying to rapidly switch from setting up and streaming a brief session for an ad to streaming or locally playing back a DVR recording.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I assume there will be another software update for that?


No, they just flip a switch.


----------



## tommiet

Tivo Response to my ticket...


Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support.

I apologize for the inconvenience. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.


----------



## pkeegan

I made the same request via Chat support, too. It started showing up a few days ago, and the update was causing my 2 minis to reboot and eventually being unable to find the Roamio server (which had to be rebooted to fix the minis' problem). Grrr!


----------



## Fofer

So now the pre-roll ads appear on TiVo Minis that are connected to Roamios too? I haven't seen that yet. Blech.


----------



## pkeegan

Yes. Why would the Minis not have the pre-roll ads? It's worse on them, too, because of the additional local network delay.


----------



## Fofer

I didn’t say I was surprised. Just saying that is the first time I’d seen anyone mention them. The pre-roll ads haven’t appeared on Roamios or connected Minis until this week. At least, no one has mentioned them until now. They’ve been on newer TiVo models for months now.


----------



## JonD1999

Isn't it ironic that the big feature that TiVo has promoted for years and has always been a huge selling point is the *ability to skip commercials.*.. and now they are pushing their own commercials on all of us who bought into that and paid good money for it!

Not to mention, it was not even done well. My TV sticks on the new arrow logo for several seconds whether it plays a commercial or not. This evening it froze there and I had to unplug it. This is making my TiVo less useful than a doorstop.


----------



## Adam C.

JonD1999 said:


> Isn't it ironic that the big feature that TiVo has promoted for years and has always been a huge selling point is the *ability to skip commercials.*.. and now they are pushing their own commercials on all of us who bought into that and paid good money for it!


There seems to be an increase in shows that are missing the Skip functionality entirely. Lately I have only been seeing Skip for about 50% of the primetime shows I watch on broadcast TV. This week's season finale of The Good Doctor is an example of one that was missing.


----------



## dadrepus

Adam C. said:


> There seems to be an increase in shows that are missing the Skip functionality entirely. Lately I have only been seeing Skip for about 50% of the primetime shows I watch on broadcast TV. This week's season finale of The Good Doctor is an example of one that was missing.


This is one of the reasons why I went back to Te3 and use KTTMG to grab the show and remove the commercials and dump it into Plex. If we don't watch live, and we rarely do, this is how I handle it now.


----------



## Reeltripp

Just got off of Chat about new commercials.
Jenelyn (11:12:49 AM):We apologize for the inconvenience this might have caused you. TiVo launched a new feature content called Pre-Roll. DVR pre-roll advertisements are short video ads that appear at the beginning of playback of most DVR recordings. These are short videos which may interest you. No worries, you can easily skip DVR Pre-Roll Ads by pressing the following buttons on your TiVo remote:

• SKIP

• OK

• Fast Forward


----------



## dadrepus

So, I'm curious, does anybody know the i.p. addresses that tivo uses to send the ads? If so, then one can set up a PiHole dns server and block them (until they switch I.P.'s)


----------



## dadrepus

Adam C. said:


> There seems to be an increase in shows that are missing the Skip functionality entirely. Lately I have only been seeing Skip for about 50% of the primetime shows I watch on broadcast TV. This week's season finale of The Good Doctor is an example of one that was missing.


it is maybe because they are working from home and do not have access to the program that does that. I don't think they are essential services. We have a stay at home mandate from the Governor of MD.


----------



## Fofer

Reeltripp said:


> Just got off of Chat about new commercials.
> Jenelyn (11:12:49 AM):We apologize for the inconvenience this might have caused you. TiVo launched a new feature content called Pre-Roll. DVR pre-roll advertisements are short video ads that appear at the beginning of playback of most DVR recordings. These are short videos which may interest you. No worries, you can easily skip DVR Pre-Roll Ads by pressing the following buttons on your TiVo remote:
> 
> • SKIP
> 
> • OK
> 
> • Fast Forward


Yes we already know this, but if I was on a chat with them I would tell them that doesn't solve the inconvenience, that just tells me how to work around it, and the better solution is that they remove the inconvenience entirely. Because for many people that poorly-implemented "inconvenience" is locking up their boxes, too.



dadrepus said:


> So, I'm curious, does anybody know the i.p. addresses that tivo uses to send the ads? If so, then one can set up a PiHole dns server and block them (until they switch I.P.'s)


Yes, this is covered quite a few times in this thread.


----------



## Mikeguy

Reeltripp said:


> Just got off of Chat about new commercials.
> Jenelyn (11:12:49 AM):We apologize for the inconvenience this might have caused you. TiVo launched a new feature content called Pre-Roll. DVR pre-roll advertisements are short video ads that appear at the beginning of playback of most DVR recordings. These are short videos which may interest you. No worries, you can easily skip DVR Pre-Roll Ads by pressing the following buttons on your TiVo remote:
> 
> • SKIP
> 
> • OK
> 
> • Fast Forward


And so now call them back, tell them that you tried, and that there are delays/malfunctions/etc., and that you now would like to be opted out of the pre-roll, as you understand you are allowed to request and have TiVo do. Be persistent.


----------



## nrnoble

My Bolt tried to do a pre-roll on a HBO movie I record from Tivo, but it returned an error saying to try again later. So let me understand, it now requires a network connection to playback content already recorded? 

Pretty bad design. I understand what they are doing, downloading\streaming the pre-roll when I first select the program I want to watch. It is extremely bad design to prevent people from watching their recorded shows when the network is down or slow. Actually, more like they released a alpha or beta quality updated; something that had known bugs.

I have been in software development for several decades and here is one example of a software team discussion that has occurred more than once.

Mangement: This problem is affecting a lot of our customers.
Dev Team: It will take us several more months to fix the problem, costing a huge amount a money.
Management: We can't afford that, is there any other options
Dev Team: Well can roll back to the previous version, but that will wipe out all the customers settings. They will be forced to start all over again.
Management: Hate to do, but lets roll back to the previous version and come up with story that makes it seem like the customer messed up things themselves.

The point is that sometimes the most cost effective solution is not to fix the problem, but to have the customer pay the price with somekind of hack or workaround.


----------



## Charles R

nrnoble said:


> So let me understand, it now requires a network connection to playback content already recorded?


I got the same/similar error and I re-selected the recording for playback and the second time it played... not yet dependent on the Internet.

Now I do have the ad server blocked so they never play... waiting on TiVo to turn them off.


----------



## Mikeguy

nrnoble said:


> My Bolt tried to do a pre-roll on a HBO movie I record from Tivo, but it returned an error saying to try again later. So let me understand, it now requires a network connection to playback content already recorded?
> 
> Pretty bad design. I understand what they are doing, downloading\streaming the pre-roll when I first select the program I want to watch. It is extremely bad design to prevent people from watching their recorded shows when the network is down or slow. Actually, more like they released a alpha or beta quality updated; something that had known bugs.
> 
> I have been in software development for several decades and here is one example of a software team discussion that has occurred more than once.
> 
> Mangement: This problem is affecting a lot of our customers.
> Dev Team: It will take us several more months to fix the problem, costing a huge amount a money.
> Management: We can't afford that, is there any other options
> Dev Team: Well can roll back to the previous version, but that will wipe out all the customers settings. They will be forced to start all over again.
> Management: Hate to do, but lets roll back to the previous version and come up with story that makes it seem like the customer messed up things themselves.
> 
> The point is that sometimes the most cost effective solution is not to fix the problem, but to have the customer pay the price with somekind of hack or workaround.


Just further evidence of TiVo's having rolled out (no pun intended) a poorly-developed "feature."

Of course, easily avoided: simply call TiVo customer support and ask that the pre-roll ads be turned off for one's TiVo boxes (there may be a slight, scripted pushback from the TiVo rep., but just persist in the request and it will be granted).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Yeah, mine finally turned off yesterday (three days after my request, through the website's chat feature).


----------



## slowbiscuit

Mikeguy said:


> Just further evidence of TiVo's having rolled out (no pun intended) a poorly-developed "feature."
> 
> Of course, easily avoided:


Downgrade, downgrade, downgrade. Do it now, send a message. Everything else (short of blocking domains with pi-hole etc.) is a waste of time, because Tivo's incompetence will mean the ads come back, over and over again.


----------



## Mikeguy

slowbiscuit said:


> Downgrade, downgrade, downgrade. Do it now, send a message. Everything else (short of blocking domains with pi-hole etc.) is a waste of time, because Tivo's incompetence will mean the ads come back, over and over again.


You're preaching to the choir, with me: am very happily using my TE3 Bolt box.


----------



## Adam C.

slowbiscuit said:


> Downgrade, downgrade, downgrade. Do it now, send a message. Everything else (short of blocking domains with pi-hole etc.) is a waste of time, because Tivo's incompetence will mean the ads come back, over and over again.


Yeah, the more people that send this "message" will mean a forced TE4 upgrade on everyone.


----------



## Tanic

Grrr. The newly activated pre-rolls cause my Roamio to repeatedly crash and restart. I emailed TiVo to opt out, but got the song and dance reply of how to bypass. The box still crashes. :rage:


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Tanic said:


> Grrr. The newly activated pre-rolls cause my Roamio to repeatedly crash and restart. I emailed TiVo to opt out, but got the song and dance reply of how to bypass. The box still crashes. :rage:


Reply and say you still want to opt out. That seems to be their current policy: reply first with the bypass instructions template, and if the customer still insists then reply with agreement to get that done within three days.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Reply and say you still want to opt out. That seems to be their current policy: reply first with the bypass instructions template, and if the customer still insists then reply with agreement to get that done within three days.


That's exactly what happened with me (on chat).


----------



## Jed1

All I am getting is the grey arrow with no ad so you can't skip it. Also I get the grey arrow with recordings from the premium channels like HBO.


----------



## Adam C.

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Reply and say you still want to opt out. That seems to be their current policy: reply first with the bypass instructions template, and if the customer still insists then reply with agreement to get that done within three days.


Don't bother with email or chat. I called and spent less than 2 minutes on the phone and the ads were gone within 12 hours.


----------



## boxster99t

Glad I found this thread-haven't been on here in years (going back to the Directv Tivo days)--pre-roll ads began this week on my TIVO ROAMIO OTA. Went through chat with support to turn off. Do I need to have it turned off also for my mini Vox or does the "fix" on the ROAMIO OTA take care of both boxes on my account (chat dropped before I could ask that question)?


----------



## pfiagra

Adam C. said:


> Don't bother with email or chat. I called and spent less than 2 minutes on the phone and the ads were gone within 12 hours.


IMHO, an online chat, which I can do in a separate window while doing other work on my laptop, is way easier than a phone call. My chat session this morning to disable the ads took about a couple of minutes also.

BTW, if you use chat, there's no need to wait for the agent's first chat. Just start writing that you want to opt out if preroll ads and send it. Then, after they give you the obligatory notice that "skipping" is available, just repeat that isn't good enough and that you want the preroll ads removed. They will reply "ok". End chat.


----------



## mattyro7878

Looking at the guide on my tivo app. No Tivo+ ads there!!


----------



## Tanic

Took me 7 minutes in Chat to request opt out then pushback. Now waiting 72 hours.


----------



## DeltaOne

Tanic said:


> Grrr. The newly activated pre-rolls cause my Roamio to repeatedly crash and restart. I emailed TiVo to opt out, but got the song and dance reply of how to bypass. The box still crashes. :rage:


When you call to opt-out they'll suggest you just use Skip to bypass the pre-roll ad. Tell 'em you tried that and it didn't work. They'll then offer to put in a ticket for the opt-out that will kick in after up to 72 hours. Mine took about 30 hours.

As for the crashing, here's what I would do when I was getting the gray arrows and long pause. Use the "kill the GUI" trick. Press thumbs down, thumbs up and then enter/last. After a short delay you'll get a full gray screen and then the GUI will come back. That's what worked for me.


----------



## enigma9o7

This started on my Roamio OTA this past week, not only the ads, but the odd behavior with grey screen with large arrows and live window in the corner etc when trying to start a pre-recorded show, and weird behavior trying to start a show from the beginning that's still recording. I also started getting the ads for Tivo+ streams in my guide. As suggested here, I contacted support and will have the pre-roll ads removed, but they said they can't do anything about the Tivo+ ads in the guide. 

If read more than ten pages of this thread and didn't find the info, but if there is a confirmed way to block addresses/etc using the router that eliminates either of these types of ads (as I've read the pre-roll ad removal may not last), I'd like to know how. Its seems when not connected to network at all it doesn't have these issues, but then I can't use Plex, and I imagine at some point my guide would get out of date.


----------



## ryanmcv

I’ve had the pre-roll ads on my Roamio Pro and Mini Vox for a while now. Up until now, it’s just been a minor annoyance. Just hit the skip or FF button after starting a recorded show; no big deal. Now, the pre-roll ads are causing both of my boxes to crash as described in above posts. Just started in the past week or so. The grey screen with the arrow appears, with an empty video box in the top right corner. After a few seconds, my entire screen goes black, the box becomes unresponsive, and it reboots itself after about a minute. I’d say it happens about once every 4 times I watch a recording.

Guess I’m going to have to call and complain and try to opt out of this “feature.” Really sad to see how far this company has fallen.


----------



## David B Gregory

andyf said:


> Just got a new Bolt and I thought I was going crazy. When I play a recording the screen goes black with the spinning blue circle for a couple of seconds, then an advertisement plays for about 15 secs, then the recording starts. If you go back and play from the beginning you'll see a different ad. The ones I remember seeing are for Toyota, Keurig and Amazon.
> 
> It seems you can skip the ad by pressing fast forward but it's not that seamless.
> 
> Anyone else?


----------



## tommiet

ryanmcv said:


> I've had the pre-roll ads on my Roamio Pro and Mini Vox for a while now. Up until now, it's just been a minor annoyance. Just hit the skip or FF button after starting a recorded show; no big deal. Now, the pre-roll ads are causing both of my boxes to crash as described in above posts. Just started in the past week or so. The grey screen with the arrow appears, with an empty video box in the top right corner. After a few seconds, my entire screen goes black, the box becomes unresponsive, and it reboots itself after about a minute. I'd say it happens about once every 4 times I watch a recording.
> 
> Guess I'm going to have to call and complain and try to opt out of this "feature." Really sad to see how far this company has fallen.


I know this thread is long.. but as I stated...
"I did an email ticket and Tivo told me they would remove the ads as I was having the same issue you are. Call or do an online service ticket."

2 days later.... the ads before my dvr events are gone!


----------



## cwoody222

Just got my first ad on my Roamio. It was for one of the stupid TiVo+ channels.

I didn’t find the volume loud like others complained about, I hit the skip button and my show started.

Not a huge deal, I thought.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Adam C. said:


> Yeah, the more people that send this "message" will mean a forced TE4 upgrade on everyone.


No, it won't for Roamios. Do it or keep putting up with this crap, your choice.


----------



## HoTatII

Just adding my voice to the crowd. ...

Pre-roll ads began here about a week ago on all my boxes (2 Roamio OTAs, 1 Bolt, and a TiVo Mini ver. 2).

And almost immediately they began wreaking havoc, especially on the older Roamios and Mini everytime you try to play a show with screen freezing on the arrow graphic and DVRs locking up as a whole ...

So just got off the phone with TiVo tech support and after he naturally suggested the "skip" workaround which I said doesn't work when the boxes freeze and crash like this. He said he needed to escalate my case and went away for about 15 min. Then finally came back and said the ads will be removed in 2-3 days.


Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jed1

So far all I get is the grey arrow and I can see the outline of the live TV box in the upper right corner. After about 3 to 5 seconds the recording starts to play. I never see any ads nor does my box freeze up and reboots.


----------



## Fofer

slowbiscuit said:


> No, it won't for Roamios. Do it or keep putting up with this crap, your choice.


I choose to keep the overall superior interface of TE4, with CEC remote control and hands-free auto comskip, and will contact TiVo as often as necessary to remove the pre-roll ads and probably install Pi-Hole to make it (and the TiVo+ ads in the guide) a non-issue, too.

This is the way I'd rather enjoy TiVo in it's final months of existence. Rather than miss out on features that I use and appreciate, out of some sort of misplaced "principle" that accomplishes nothing.


----------



## numbskull

cwoody222 said:


> Just got my first ad on my Roamio. It was for one of the stupid TiVo+ channels.


I just noticed this the other day on my Roamio as well... however, the problem I have is that we PAY for the TiVo service, so why the need for ads?? I don't want ads, ever! Unless the TiVo services becomes free... and even then, I would still rather pay than see ads.

EDIT: I just logged into my account and found an "opt-out" setting for my privacy status. Not sure if that's all I need to do or still need to contact them for a different "opt-out" status (see attached).


----------



## pfiagra

numbskull said:


> I just noticed this the other day on my Roamio as well... however, the problem I have is that we PAY for the TiVo service, so why the need for ads?? I don't want ads, ever! Unless the TiVo services becomes free... and even then, I would still rather pay than see ads.
> 
> EDIT: I just logged into my account and found an "opt-out" setting for my privacy status. Not sure if that's all I need to do or still need to contact them for a different "opt-out" status (see attached).


FIX: Removing Ads Before Watching a Recorded Event


----------



## cwoody222

numbskull said:


> I just noticed this the other day on my Roamio as well... however, the problem I have is that we PAY for the TiVo service, so why the need for ads?? I don't want ads, ever! Unless the TiVo services becomes free... and even then, I would still rather pay than see ads.
> 
> EDIT: I just logged into my account and found an "opt-out" setting for my privacy status. Not sure if that's all I need to do or still need to contact them for a different "opt-out" status (see attached).


That thing in your account does nothing for the preroll.


----------



## HoTatII

numbskull said:


> I just noticed this the other day on my Roamio as well... however, the problem I have is that we PAY for the TiVo service, so why the need for ads?? I don't want ads, ever! Unless the TiVo services becomes free... and even then, I would still rather pay than see ads. ...


Why the ads?

That should be quite obvious ...

For an additional source of revenue of course ....

Just because you pay subscription fees doesn't mean TiVo/Rovi won't want or need to find other avenues to make more money.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


----------



## numbskull

HoTatII said:


> Just because you pay subscription fees doesn't mean TiVo/Rovi won't want or need to find other avenues to make more money.


It is obvious, thanks...but it is also obvious that people don't like ads!

Otherwise this thread wouldn't be so long, we wouldn't be configuring ad blockers, oh, and this forum wouldn't offer an option to remove ads too with a PAID community club membership.

find another way to make money from your already paying customers.


----------



## Fofer

If your best strategy for making more money is to remove the very feature that propelled many of your customers to buy your product in the first place, then you no longer deserve to stay in business.


----------



## Phil T

I just requested removal of pre-roll ads via chat. I told them nicely that these ads defeated the purpose/reason I purchased their equipment in the first place. They said they would remove them within 72 hours. I suggest other do the same!


----------



## mattyro7878

Jed1 said:


> So far all I get is the grey arrow and I can see the outline of the live TV box in the upper right corner. After about 3 to 5 seconds the recording starts to play. I never see any ads nor does my box freeze up and reboots.


You will. That's the pattern...grey arrow with empty box...then eventually the ads come and eventually your box restarts. What fun!!


----------



## Jed1

mattyro7878 said:


> You will. That's the pattern...grey arrow with empty box...then eventually the ads come and eventually your box restarts. What fun!!


I am wondering why some owners boxes restart and some don't. I was thinking the cause was how robust the owners ISP is. I assume if the box can't get the ad in a set time it causes the box to reboot. So far I have not had my two base Roamios reboot. If they start doing that then I will have to call in and have the feature removed. Otherwise I am not going to waste my time with TiVo's CSRs as I rather have bamboo shutes driven under my finger nails.


----------



## mattyro7878

My Roamio plus is connected by Ethernet on an Xfinity 300mps gateway. It should be able to handle the pre roll hiccup.


----------



## HoTatII

numbskull said:


> It is obvious, thanks...but it is also obvious that people don't like ads!
> 
> Otherwise this thread wouldn't be so long, we wouldn't be configuring ad blockers, oh, and this forum wouldn't offer an option to remove ads too with a PAID community club membership.
> 
> find another way to make money from your already paying customers.


Much agreed ...

But that still doesn't mean they won't test the waters to see what they can get away with ...

Then if the response to it is negative by subs such as in this thread. Then they'll likely start by backing off, but for those who specifically call in and complain and request removal of the ads.

Beyond that I expect that if the negative response becomes overwhelming to where even the JSPs start calling in. I expect TiVo/Rovi to then scrap the whole idea altogether.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

Jed1 said:


> Otherwise I am not going to waste my time with TiVo's CSRs as I rather have bamboo shutes driven under my finger nails.


Even via text?


----------



## Jed1

Fofer said:


> Even via text?


Yea I guess chat wouldn't be to bad if it comes to that. I will see if I have any issues with the ads if and when they do appear.


mattyro7878 said:


> My Roamio plus is connected by Ethernet on an Xfinity 300mps gateway. It should be able to handle the pre roll hiccup.


I think it will be more affected by the lag time and not the speed. If the packet delay is to long then it probably times out and then reboots.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> This is the way I'd rather enjoy TiVo in it's final months of existence. Rather than miss out on features that I use and appreciate, out of some sort of misplaced "principle" that accomplishes nothing.


It's not a 'principle' it's a way to avoid this ad crap that crashes boxes. As I said, it's your choice.


----------



## Fofer

Contacting TiVo (however many times as necessary) removes it too. As does PiHole. 

So yes, it’s a choice, and representing your approach as “the real fix” is false and unnecessarily confrontational.


----------



## Jed1

Fofer said:


> I choose to keep the overall superior interface of TE4, with CEC remote control and hands-free auto comskip, and will contact TiVo as often as necessary to remove the pre-roll ads and probably install Pi-Hole to make it (and the TiVo+ ads in the guide) a non-issue, too.
> 
> This is the way I'd rather enjoy TiVo in it's final months of existence. Rather than miss out on features that I use and appreciate, out of some sort of misplaced "principle" that accomplishes nothing.


I have to agree consumer TiVos are approaching the end so enjoy it while is lasts. I have been contemplating not watching live or recorded TV anymore and just have internet and phone and then watch movies on BD and use some streaming services like Vudu and Amazon Prime which I already have. Although I may mess around with and antenna since I have some time on my hands right now.


----------



## JoeKustra

Jed1 said:


> I have to agree consumer TiVos are approaching the end so enjoy it while is lasts. I have been contemplating not watching live or recorded TV anymore and just have internet and phone and then watch movies on BD and use some streaming services like Vudu and Amazon Prime which I already have. Although I may mess around with and antenna since I have some time on my hands right now.


If you get it working, can you run a cable down the hill?  But seriously, I'm testing all my "Favorites" for streaming ability. So far, MSNBC looks the best for real time viewing.


----------



## Jed1

JoeKustra said:


> If you get it working, can you run a cable down the hill?  But seriously, I'm testing all my "Favorites" for streaming ability. So far, MSNBC looks the best for real time viewing.


That is how Service Electric got its start. Outside of the TV Everywhere that comes with our cable subscription what streaming services are you using to get channels like MSNBC as I will be willing to give it a try. I do have a Roku Ultra. Also I see there is a number of channels free this month and HDNET Movies is one of them. So is Showtime, which I have a subscription to so I wonder if they are going to give me a discount.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Give a date for end of tivo - soon means nothing.
I remember when circuit city closed in 2009 alot said best buy will close soon too.
Yea well that was 11 yrs ago & best buy is still open.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

TiVo's demise has been imminent for as long as I've been on these boards...


----------



## Jed1

TiVo is no longer the TiVo as you know it. That company was bought by another company and now it looks like there maybe another sale in the works so it may change hands again. The current company is moving away from hardware and is just doing the software side of the business. The model that is being used is some hardware manufacturer can license to use the UI and then sell their hardware to the public but there isn't any one getting into the DVR business.
I can not give an end date but considering what is going on with the current retail side of the business I can safely say we are much closer to the end than the beginning. Just this week it looks like the company, Espial, that ended up with the Moxi finally crippled the remaining consumer Moxis. They can not even view live TV with them.
Moxi HD DVR - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
This is our likely future.


----------



## JoeKustra

Jed1 said:


> That is how Service Electric got its start.


To go into details, it would be OT. But I remember my first experience with SE was in 1957 when I visited my grandparents in Girardville. Every time a car drove by the distribution box you could see the noise caused by the spark plugs. This was before resistor plugs. I'm old.


----------



## JACKASTOR

Hate the add! It’s wrong and worst of all very crappy quality


----------



## HoTatII

Just an up ....

Ads were removed from all my boxes sometime this morning after I did a forced connection around 8:30 PST.

Requested it Sunday morning by phone about the same time, thus removed in 48 hours 
...

Hallelujah ... there is a God ... 

My older Roamios are especially thankful ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## Teavo

Cursed myself by noting I didn't have ads. Sure as shyt I saw them last night. I did online chat with TiVo and lady said they will opt me out today.


----------



## Johnwashere

Phil T said:


> I just requested removal of pre-roll ads via chat. I told them nicely that these ads defeated the purpose/reason I purchased their equipment in the first place. They said they would remove them within 72 hours. I suggest other do the same!


I did this months ago, it actually took about a week or a little more but it DID work. I havent had any preroll ads since


----------



## Jed1

I actually got an ad last night with the recording of the Conners. It was pretty quick and it appeared to be for TiVo+ channels. Didn't have a chance to skip it as it went by to fast.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> So yes, it's a choice, and representing your approach as "the real fix" is false and unnecessarily confrontational.


Downgrading to TE3 to fix the problem for good is confrontational? ROFL.


----------



## Fofer

slowbiscuit said:


> Downgrading to TE3 to fix the problem for good is confrontational? ROFL.


No, but telling people that it's the "real fix" implies that folks happier with TE4 have the "fake fix" - which is trollish and dumb.


----------



## don998

Just completed my chat session. It followed the same script as others. Hope it helps.


----------



## scottd1968

I cannot believe this is happening. What a horrible business decision. One sure way to go out of business is let money be your motivation instead of customers. Shame on you TIVO. It was nice knowing you. I have been a since 2004 and purchased 14 tivo devices over that time and paid ridiculous amounts of money for subscriptions. I pay for these subscriptions just for this reason (on top of my cable bill I might ad).


----------



## gnaga

I just got the pre-roll ads removed on chat without even giving an explanation to the rep. He just did it!


----------



## mlsnyc

Fofer said:


> No, but telling people that it's the "real fix" implies that folks happier with TE4 have the "fake fix" - which is trollish and dumb.


To me it doesn't imply that TE4 is a fake fix, but that it's not a permanent fix. In my case I'm only talking about opting out, not the pi-hole/blacklisting solution.

My experience opting out involved a 30-minute phone call (hold time before getting hold of a rep, convincing the rep to opt me out vs. rep trying to convince me to press skip every time, the rep putting me on hold several times as he did whatever he did on his end to actually opt me out). After that, there was another 1-2 days of restarting the TiVo to check that the pre-roll ads went away.

That's more effort than I'd like, but I'm okay if I only have to do that once. But it's not okay with me if I have to do that more than once. Or worse, that I have to do that every time a new release rolls out, which is what some have reported.

Having said that, I'm okay sticking with TE4 for now because the pre-roll ads have not come back for me. _*knocking on wood*_


----------



## Noelmel

Jinxed myself by saying last week I still hadn’t gotten the ads. They showed up today on my Roamio Pro TE4. Started with the grey arrow screen. The first few times the ads never even loaded. Then next time it did but froze. Wasn’t responding to any remote buttons. Then crashed and rebooted. This brought the TiVo plus guide ads back as well which had mysteriously been gone on their own for over a month. So I did what others did on the chat. Explained I knew I could skip or ff but the unit was freezing and rebooting. All she asked was what model. I said roamio pro and she said ok they’ll be gone in 72 hours. Easy and quick! I didn’t ask about the guide ads because I know no one has successfully had those removed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

The only thing I’ve read that removes the guide ads is PiHole


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I actually like the Guide ads...the only time I use the Guide is when I'm scrolling through a couple week's worth of HBO to see what I want to record, and while the current Guide is HORRIBLE for that, at least if you put the cursor on the ad it will go through exactly one screen at a time...i.e., as quickly as is possible under this monstrosity of a Guide.


----------



## Noelmel

Fofer said:


> The only thing I've read that removes the guide ads is PiHole


About a month ago I was getting almost my whole guide saying Title Not Available even after many forced connections. And not far out... like on the current day. I was afraid to try the clear and delete so read an option to rerun guided setup with zip code and searching provider. Somehow after 10 years I had the wrong one selected. It fixed the TNA problem and the TiVo plus guide ads were gone since then. Maybe there's a way to get rid of them for awhile?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## supasta

My Roamio Pro starting getting the arrows two weeks ago. I thought, "This is odd." It would stall the box, but wasn't a big deal. Within 48 hours I was getting the ads, sort of. The box would attempt to load the ad, freeze, and just go right into a restart. Like clockwork. The box would restart every time I tried to play a new recording. I was getting 5-6 restarts per day. The MOCA connected Mini was struggling, freezing, and restarting, too.

After coming here to TCF for details, I found this thread. An hour later I was back home from MicroCenter with a RaspberryPi and had Pi-Hole running. I didn't want to see the ads again or have to repeatedly call CS as soon as the box restarted or updated.

Since the Pi-Hole install, I haven't seen a single ad. I occasionally see the arrows, but in 1-2 seconds the recording starts. More importantly, the box is snappy and I have not had a single restart. The connected Mini has been relieved of all issues as well. They are faster and more responsive.

A big thank you to all in this thread for the details and the help, especially @Chuck_IV and @saeba

My setup is a Raspberry Pi Zero W With Pi-Hole blocking at the router level. I blocked the domains in this post: TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording

I've been a huge TiVo proponent beginning with my first box in 2006. This is serious misstep by TiVo. Like others in this thread, I'll be looking at a contingency plan just in case TiVo decides to make another egregious error like this in the future. I understand business decisions are necessary, but the painful disconnect of adding ads to a TiVo box is laughable. Skipping ads is the primary reason I purchased a TiVo and why I kept upgrading year after year (and, unfortunately, the reason I upgraded to TE4).


----------



## Charles R

supasta said:


> Since the Pi-Hole install, I haven't seen a single ad. I occasionally see the arrows, but in 1-2 seconds the recording starts.


If you block mm1.tivoservice.com you shouldn't see the arrows (or guide ads). Based on your usage (with mine I have no issues) you might see this or that... such as not loading the stations logos in the guide. Actually if you can live with blocking mm1.tivoservice.com you don't have to block any other domains... it removes both ads (Pre-roll and guide) in my experience.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mlsnyc said:


> That's more effort than I'd like, but I'm okay if I only have to do that once. But it's not okay with me if I have to do that more than once. Or worse, that I have to do that every time a new release rolls out, which is what some have reported.


Therein lies the problem with TE4.


----------



## Reeltripp

Update - My Roamio keeps rebooting when I try to skip pre-roll ads. Contacted Chat and finally got a commitment to remove me from pre-roll ads. Will take 2 to 3 days.


----------



## Fofer

slowbiscuit said:


> Therein lies the problem with TE4.


Even with a 3 minute task after every update, I'd prefer that path over being hobbled and embarrassed by the outdated UI and feature set of TE3.

And also, therein lies the beauty of the PiHole solution, which is more permanent.


----------



## Charles R

slowbiscuit said:


> Therein lies the problem with TE4.


If that's the only problem there isn't any... doesn't take me much longer to chat online (to get it removed) than a post here of which many seem to have endless time for... 

Oh wait with Pi-hole I don't even need to chat them up outside of complaining about something that doesn't effect me which appears to be quite popular.


----------



## Noelmel

After doing the chat yesterday and getting the standard they’ll be gone in 72 hours message. I rebooted and forced a connection and they were gone (less than 12 hours — May have worked immediately I didn’t try) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tommiet

supasta said:


> Since the Pi-Hole install, I haven't seen a single ad. I occasionally see the arrows, but in 1-2 seconds the recording starts. More importantly, the box is snappy and I have not had a single restart. The connected Mini has been relieved of all issues as well. They are faster and more responsive.
> .


Seems like a lot of work when I just did an online ticket to have the ads removed. Ads were removed about 2 days later. No cost to me....

But I do love tech solutions... What ever works for you!


----------



## mtnagel

Have a Roamio OTA. Pre-roll ads started over a week ago. Noticed my unit restarting several times on it's own. I did a support chat on Thurs 4/2 and they were removed the next day. Well now they are back a week later. Ugh. Honestly won't care that much since I can skip them, but some are very loud so it's very jarring. The delay is super annoying. And the restarts are a show stopper. Guess I'll try chat again and see how long it sticks.


----------



## cwoody222

Just got my 2nd ad. (usually I just get the arrows)

It was for the Unsolved Mysteries channel on TiVo+. But it was basically just the intro to Unsolved Mysteries. It looked like TiVo was playing an episode, not playing a commercial.

It didn’t tell me how to watch it, when I could watch it or anything. Aside from a “FilmRise” logo in the upper right corner and “powered by Xumo” at the end.

It was pointless. A normal user would have absolutely no idea that they could navigate to TiVo+ and watch that show on demand if they so chose to.

If they’re gonna waste my time, I just wish the commercials were of a higher quality.


----------



## HoTatII

mtnagel said:


> Have a Roamio OTA. Pre-roll ads started over a week ago. Noticed my unit restarting several times on it's own. I did a support chat on Thurs 4/2 and they were removed the next day. Well now they are back a week later. Ugh. Honestly won't care that much since I can skip them, but some are very loud so it's very jarring. The delay is super annoying. And the restarts are a show stopper. Guess I'll try chat again and see how long it sticks.


Similar here ....

Originally called in on 4/4 to have ads removed from all my boxes (2 Roamio OTAs, a Bolt Cable/OTA, and TiVo Mini ver. 2)
Ads were removed on 4/6. Then noticed for some reason they returned on the Bolt yesterday 4/10. Called in again, TiVo apologized and now found ads removed from Bolt after a forced connection early this morning around 3:00 AM PST.

Sign ... keeping my eye on it ....

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnagel

HoTatII said:


> Similar here ....
> 
> Originally called in on 4/4 to have ads removed from all my boxes (2 Roamio OTAs, a Bolt Cable/OTA, and TiVo Mini ver. 2)
> Ads were removed on 4/6. Then noticed for some reason they returned on the Bolt yesterday 4/10. Called in again, TiVo apologized and now found ads removed from Bolt after a forced connection early this morning around 3:00 AM PST.
> 
> Sign ... keeping my eye on it ....
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


I just chatted and he said they should be removed from my account 

Can I do a forced connection or do I have to call?


----------



## Noelmel

mtnagel said:


> I just chatted and he said they should be removed from my account
> 
> Can I do a forced connection or do I have to call?


I did the chat you don't have to call. They told me 72 hours. About 12 hours later I rebooted and forced a connection and they were gone. Try that now and see idk how quick it really takes

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnagel

Noelmel said:


> I did the chat you don't have to call. They told me 72 hours. About 12 hours later I rebooted and forced a connection and they were gone. Try that now and see idk how quick it really takes
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What I mean is that the chat agent, who is the same chat agent from when I first chatted a week ago says that it's showing they are removed from my account, even though they are back. I know the chat agent can removed them. I'm trying a restart now. If I'm going to have to do this every week, bye bye tivo.

Edit: a restart and forced connection didn't remove the ads. I may just go ahead and call.


----------



## hairyblue

I blacklisted the tivo ad sites on my PiHole and it seems to be working. I made a connection to tivo for data guide and it worked ok. So it seems to be working fine with the ad sites blocked. I will have to play more with it later but this saves me from calling Tivo and complaining. Although maybe we all should call and complain to let our voices be heard.


----------



## Phil T

Monday April 6th I requested via chat that my pre-roll ads be removed. 
Was told they would be within 72 hours.

Still have them...


----------



## KevTech

hairyblue said:


> I blacklisted the tivo ad sites on my PiHole and it seems to be working.


Ya I found on my TE4 test Tivo that just blocking the *adgwy* keyword in my router works great.


----------



## omarfdez

Fofer said:


> Yes, but what we've learned is that after the next software update or revision, they come back, and you have to call again to "opt out. " Which is kind of pathetic if you ask me.


I have also noted that after the last software update my Roamio OTA takes 15-20 seconds from when I select the program I have recorded to the time it starts to display it.


----------



## mtnagel

mtnagel said:


> What I mean is that the chat agent, who is the same chat agent from when I first chatted a week ago says that it's showing they are removed from my account, even though they are back. I know the chat agent can removed them. I'm trying a restart now. If I'm going to have to do this every week, bye bye tivo.
> 
> Edit: a restart and forced connection didn't remove the ads. I may just go ahead and call.


Called Saturday or Sunday and they are gone again yesterday or today.


----------



## supasta

Well, my Pi-Hole has been blocking ads completely for the last two weeks. Today I am getting ads again (starting in the last hour). I went through a bunch of unplayed shows, and getting ads on each one. Damn.

I don't see anything new in the Pi-Hole console. Is anyone else using Pi-Hole seeing ads? Can anyone else using Pi-Hole take a look at your query logs?

EDIT: I was pointing my router to the Pi-Hole, and that was working. I went in and pointed the TiVo to the Pi-Hole in the TiVo DNS settings. The Pi-Hole appears to be back up and running. Odd behavior. I'm still working out why that might have occurred. IN the end, this is a better solution as now I can see each device individually in the Pi-Hole console.


----------



## Tony_T

Today pre-roll ads have returned (I requested it be removed in when they were first put in, and all was fine until today.)

Looks like I need to have a little "Chat" with TiVo again.


----------



## mulscully

I called last week to have the Pre Roll ads removed. She said it would take up to 3 day for it to take effect. I did not keep track on exactly how long, but they are gone


----------



## arglebargle2

supasta said:


> Well, my Pi-Hole has been blocking ads completely for the last two weeks. Today I am getting ads again (starting in the last hour). I went through a bunch of unplayed shows, and getting ads on each one. Damn.
> 
> I don't see anything new in the Pi-Hole console. Is anyone else using Pi-Hole seeing ads? Can anyone else using Pi-Hole take a look at your query logs?
> 
> EDIT: I was pointing my router to the Pi-Hole, and that was working. I went in and pointed the TiVo to the Pi-Hole in the TiVo DNS settings. The Pi-Hole appears to be back up and running. Odd behavior. I'm still working out why that might have occurred. IN the end, this is a better solution as now I can see each device individually in the Pi-Hole console.


Are you on moca? Where are the DNS settings?


----------



## supasta

TiVo Mini on MOCA. Primary box is a Roamio Pro. You have to go in and set a static IP. DNS settings are within that menu.


----------



## Tony_T

Tony_T said:


> Today pre-roll ads have returned (I requested it be removed in when they were first put in, and all was fine until today.)
> 
> Looks like I need to have a little "Chat" with TiVo again.


Already removed by TiVo! 

(Not sure why people are messing with pihole blocking, when all it takes to remove the pre-roll ads is a Call or Chat with TiVo)


----------



## Fofer

Because PiHole does a whole lot more, also removes the useless TiVo+ entries from the guide. And doesn't require follow-up calls.


----------



## Tony_T

Fofer said:


> Because PiHole does a whole lot more, also removes the useless TiVo+ entries from the guide. And doesn't require follow-up calls.


Yes, I use PiHole, but no reason to to remove pre-roll ads when just a call/chat gets rid of them. As far as the TiVo+ "ads" in the Guide, I don't use the Guide because of this, and use the Up Arrow Guide instead. I've yet to find a PiHole blacklist that will remove only the TiVo+ "Ads"


----------



## Fofer

One may also argue: why even call, when a properly configured PiHole gets rid of both? Especially when the results of that call aren’t immediate?

Either way it’s a silly thing to argue about. We have options and everyone has their own reasons for choosing what they do.


----------



## Tony_T

Not intending to argue.
What are the blacklists to remove the TiVo+ “Ads”?


----------



## supasta

I received the following message from @Chuck_IV This information is also posted in this thread somewhere, and might have more detail. I haven't tried this method yet.



> Hi there, the site to block is mm1.tivoservice.com
> 
> You add it to the PiHole block list, reboot your Tivo, then after it reboots, make sure to REMOVE mm1.tivoservice.com from the block list. This is because if you don't you will a) not get any network logos in the guide and b) the search will no longer work. Unfortunately, every time the Tivo reboots, say overnight, the ads will be back until you repeat the process.


----------



## Tony_T

supasta said:


> I received the following message from @Chuck_IV This information is also posted in this thread somewhere, and might have more detail. I haven't tried this method yet.


Worked......
..........for about 10 minutes, and the the TiVo+ "Ads" are back in the guide


----------



## tim_m

I got my pre roll ads removed via email. Emailed them 2 days ago and they're gone today. They were causing the TiVo to crash.


----------



## Fofer

A good and responsible company would turn these off for everybody - at the very least until they fix the crashes they are causing. 

No one is minding the store. TiVo is lost.


----------



## tim_m

Fofer said:


> A good and responsible company would turn these off for everybody - at the very least until they fix the crashes they are causing.
> 
> No one is minding the store. TiVo is lost.


Yep, the ads really didn't bother me so much. They were easily skippable, but it was crashing the TiVo fairly regularly once the ads were to the point they were before every recording. Monday they crashed it twice. That was when I got fed up and sent them an email to get rid of them. I shouldn't have to refrain from watching a recording during primetime for fear the TiVo will bork itself.


----------



## Tony_T

At least TiVo allows an opt-out of the pre-roll Ads.
Now if there were only a way to get rid of the TiVo+ Ads in The Guide
(until then, I’ll use the Up Arrow Guide)


----------



## Salacious Crumb

I hate the up arrow guide.


----------



## Tony_T

I hate the TiVo+ Ads


----------



## gbshuler

For the second time this week a pre-roll ad, while loading, crashes my TiVo Bolt+. 

What are the exact words you use to opt out when calling TiVo support?

thanks

Software 21.9.7.v3-USC-11-849
TiVo since 2001.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I don't think it matters. They'll take any excuse, as long as you press them (I think they're programmed to resist a little).

I told them the resolution shifts the ads trigger were slowing things down too much for me.


----------



## Phil T

It took two chats and a phone call to get the pre roll ads removed from my Bolt. April 6th, 16 and 20th. Finally they were removed Wednesday. Yay!!

Except I thought removing them from the Bolt would also remove them from my two minis. 

Wrong! I guess you have to request the minis also.

I guess next time I will request all three...


----------



## tim_m

I just simply told them I wanted this "feature" removed because it was crashing my Roamio.


----------



## Tony_T

I told them that I was aware that pressing “D” Skipped the pre.roll ad, but that I still wanted to opt.out.


----------



## bobfrank

[email protected] said:


> For the second time this week a pre-roll ad, while loading, crashes my TiVo Bolt+.
> 
> What are the exact words you use to opt out when calling TiVo support?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Software 21.9.7.v3-USC-11-849
> TiVo since 2001.


"How do I change to TE3?" That would be my solution, but YMMV.


----------



## Jed1

The ads I see are only for the TiVo plus feature. Most of those channels is Xumo which ironically is being bought by Comcast. So I guess this is going to be another bust for TiVo.


----------



## JonD1999

About 2 times a week now when I try to skip the Tivo-generated Ad I get an error pop-up that says "Can't play now" "please try again later" that CANNOT BE DISMISSED. None of the buttons on the remote dismiss the pop-up and nothing is playing on the TV at that point, just a black screen with the error message. The only thing I can do at that point is to unplug the power and plug it back in again!! This is absolutely unacceptable TiVo!!


----------



## Tony_T

bobfrank said:


> "How do I change to TE3?" That would be my solution, but YMMV.


Why would you downgrade to stop the pre-roll Ads when a quick chat with TiVo support asking to opt-out is quicker and easier to do?


----------



## Tony_T

JonD1999 said:


> About 2 times a week now when I try to skip the Tivo-generated Ad I get an error pop-up that says "Can't play now" "please try again later" that CANNOT BE DISMISSED. None of the buttons on the remote dismiss the pop-up and nothing is playing on the TV at that point, just a black screen with the error message. The only thing I can do at that point is to unplug the power and plug it back in again!! This is absolutely unacceptable TiVo!!


Have you contacted TiVo and requested to opt-out of the pre-roll Ads?
When are you pressing "D" (or Channel Up)? Try as soon as you select the recording to play.


----------



## humbb

[email protected] said:


> For the second time this week a pre-roll ad, while loading, crashes my TiVo Bolt+.
> 
> *What are the exact words you use to opt out when calling TiVo support?*
> 
> thanks
> 
> Software 21.9.7.v3-USC-11-849
> TiVo since 2001.





bobfrank said:


> "How do I change to TE3?" That would be my solution, but YMMV.





Tony_T said:


> Why would you downgrade to stop the pre-roll Ads when a quick chat with TiVo support asking to opt-out is quicker and easier to do?


If you read the Q&A again, you'll see that bobfrank is not recommending conversion to TE3 in his answer.


----------



## Tony_T

Read again, and he’s recommending asking TiVo support "How do I change to TE3?" to fix pre-roll Ads crashing a TiVo Bolt.
A joke (), sure, maybe.


----------



## bobfrank

Tony_T said:


> Why would you downgrade to stop the pre-roll Ads when a quick chat with TiVo support asking to opt-out is quicker and easier to do?


I don't consider it a downgrade. I prefer the UI of TE3. In addition I am not willing to give up the TE3 guide or the ability to upload videos to my Tivo from my PC in exchange for autoskip and a different look and feel. Not to mention I don't have to worry about pre-roll ads coming back.


----------



## bobfrank

humbb said:


> If you read the Q&A again, you'll see that bobfrank is not recommending conversion to TE3 in his answer.


I was saying that would be my solution if I was running TE4. It is a solution to the OP's question. The YMMV is because there may be other reasons for him to want to stay with TE4.


----------



## Tony_T

No AutoSKIP in TE3? That would be a dealbreaker for me.


----------



## bobfrank

Tony_T said:


> Read again, and he's recommending asking TiVo support "How do I change to TE3?" to fix pre-roll Ads crashing a TiVo Bolt.
> A joke (), sure, maybe.


Not a joke. I said that would be _MY _solution. I explained earlier why.


----------



## Tony_T

bobfrank said:


> Not a joke. I said that would be _MY _solution. I explained earlier why.


Well, you did put the smiley in your response, and TiVo support would not know how to advise a user how to downgrade, so not a solution to the OP's question and that's why I said maybe it was s joke.


----------



## Yagi

Email to customer support: 
Please turn OFF PRE-ROLL ADS. I watch recordings around 10 times a day and am tired of the delay even using the ADVANCE button to skip the ADD. 
MY enjoyment of TIVO has been diminished because of PRE-ROLL ads. Please find a better way to receive money.
Received reply:Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.
Around 48 hrs later the ADDs were gone. Now I'm happy again!!!


----------



## bobfrank

Tony_T said:


> No AutoSKIP in TE3? That would be a dealbreaker for me.


We just have different deal breakers. For me it's the lack of ability to upload videos to the Tivo. I don't mind one quick button press a few times per show to skip commercials.


----------



## bobfrank

Tony_T said:


> Well, you did put the smiley in your response, and TiVo support would not know how to advise a user how to downgrade, so not a solution to the OP's question and that's why I said maybe it was s joke.


The smiley was because I'm tired of being called a TE3 Nazi by a certain poster. I would hope that Tivo support would know how to revert to TE3 for those people who feel the need. However I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.


----------



## Tony_T

IIRC, won’t all recordings be wiped if a downgrade is performed to TE3?


----------



## Mikeguy

Sadly, yes: when one sidegrades from TE4/Hydra to TE3, the box's recordings are lost. 

And so, prior to doing so, install, e.g., easy-to-use pyTivo Desktop onto your PC and pull the recordings that you want to save to your PC first (and then back after).*

* Note: OTA recordings typically can be saved; cable recordings, depending on the service, may be copy-restricted.


----------



## Tony_T

So, to stop the pre-roll ads, easiest solution is to opt-out.


----------



## tim_m

JonD1999 said:


> About 2 times a week now when I try to skip the Tivo-generated Ad I get an error pop-up that says "Can't play now" "please try again later" that CANNOT BE DISMISSED. None of the buttons on the remote dismiss the pop-up and nothing is playing on the TV at that point, just a black screen with the error message. The only thing I can do at that point is to unplug the power and plug it back in again!! This is absolutely unacceptable TiVo!!


I had success with thumbs up thumbs down play play.


----------



## tim_m

Jed1 said:


> The ads I see are only for the TiVo plus feature. Most of those channels is Xumo which ironically is being bought by Comcast. So I guess this is going to be another bust for TiVo.


I've seen regular commercials and ads for my tv provider.


----------



## tim_m

Yagi said:


> Email to customer support:
> Please turn OFF PRE-ROLL ADS. I watch recordings around 10 times a day and am tired of the delay even using the ADVANCE button to skip the ADD.
> MY enjoyment of TIVO has been diminished because of PRE-ROLL ads. Please find a better way to receive money.
> Received reply:Thank you for contacting TiVo Email Support. I will request an update so your TiVo device no longer shows an advertisement before your recording begins. I will submit the request now but please note that it will take up to 72 hours to take effect.
> Around 48 hrs later the ADDs were gone. Now I'm happy again!!!


Yep mine were gone in a little over 48 hours.


----------



## DouglasPHill

I just noticed one of these. Thank goodness did not lock up my Bolt. As long as I can jump past it I'm ok with it. I want Tivo to stay in business so an ad is ok. Maybe they could enhance it to where you only see an ad once a day; less intrusive.


----------



## tim_m

DouglasPHill said:


> I just noticed one of these. Thank goodness did not lock up my Bolt. As long as I can jump past it I'm ok with it. I want Tivo to stay in business so an ad is ok. Maybe they could enhance it to where you only see an ad once a day; less intrusive.


It's ok until it starts crashing the TiVo and it will.


----------



## dobbie1

I have had multiple Tivo's all with lifetime subs since about 2001. I now have a Roamio with a couple of minis and it will be my last. I have also started seeing the Tivo ads start before my shows and have locked up and reboot my system. Also, once Tivo changed the software so I could not transfer from an older unit to the Roamio I started looking for a replacement and settled on the Amazon Fire Recast. I am pleased with it, no it's not a Tivo but that is not a bad thing.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Tony_T said:


> No AutoSKIP in TE3? That would be a dealbreaker for me.


You can do autoskip in TE3 with a program called kmttg, but it does take a little extra work and knowhow. I've been running it flawlessly for years now.

The problem with using chat, phone calls etc. to disable these is that the ads will be back. It's not a permanent solution to the problem because of Rivo's incompetence/insistence about these. There are other permanent (?) solutions using router or piHole filtering which also take some knowhow.


----------



## TKnight206

Fofer said:


> A good and responsible company would turn these off for everybody - at the very least until they fix the crashes they are causing.
> 
> No one is minding the store. TiVo is lost.


I'm on TE3.

At least until they fix the crashes? Pre-roll ads are inappropriate. Imagine if you bought a book, and at the beginning of each chapter, a sticker is affixed to the page advertising for a business. Not put there by the book publisher, but by the reseller of the book.

Call TiVo and tell them you don't want pre-roll ads. They make no logical sense.


----------



## cwoody222

tim_m said:


> It's ok until it starts crashing the TiVo and it will.


I had my 2nd crash last night with my Roamio.

Same behavior as before. Tried to play a show and got an error it wasn't available now.

Tried to play another and it rebooted. While I was recording.

I don't mind the ads but rebooting during recordings is unacceptable. I'll be asking to be opted out.


----------



## tim_m

cwoody222 said:


> I had my 2nd crash last night with my Roamio.
> 
> Same behavior as before. Tried to play a show and got an error it wasn't available now.
> 
> Tried to play another and it rebooted. While I was recording.
> 
> I don't mind the ads but rebooting during recordings is unacceptable. I'll be asking to be opted out.


Mine did that twice but never caused a reboot. What mine would is play several episodes without issue but after a certain amount, I would see the arrow screen then gobgo and stayed there way for several minutes before rebooting. Of it happened while recording I would lose a good 6 minutes of an episode. 3 minutes while it was locking up and another 3 for the reboot. You never know when it's gonna get to the episode where will bork it either which is frustrating, because of this I stopped watching any recoding until all shows were done. So that it it did happen I didn't lose anything. Still unacceptable behavior because I'm not the only one using the TiVo. My elderly mom has a mini. So if the Roamio crashes it interrupts her viewing. If they fix this fine, the ads weren't that bad and easy to skip but causing the crashes is wholly unacceptable.


----------



## mtnagel

I had random reboots after the ads showed up. I’d be watching something on my Roku and suddenly my tv would switch inputs to my Roamio as its rebooting. This never happened before the ads showed up and hasn’t happened after they removed them.


----------



## tim_m

mtnagel said:


> I had random reboots after the ads showed up. I'd be watching something on my Roku and suddenly my tv would switch inputs to my Roamio as its rebooting. This never happened before the ads showed up and hasn't happened after they removed them.


Interesting, for me it only ever happened when I started playing a recording.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Dont know if its just coincidence but....
i would get crashes too - like maybe 1 out of 8 times i played a recording - the battery was low on remote so i changed it.
Since then mustve watched 100+ recordings - 0 crashes.
Maybe a weak signal to the dvr was doing it ??
Just seems a rather huge coincidence.


----------



## tim_m

Salacious Crumb said:


> Dont know if its just coincidence but....
> i would get crashes too - like maybe 1 out of 8 times i played a recording - the battery was low on remote so i changed it.
> Since then mustve watched 100+ recordings - 0 crashes.
> Maybe a weak signal to the dvr was doing it ??
> Just seems a rather huge coincidence.


That seems unlikely but you never know.


----------



## Bandoul

tim_m said:


> Yep mine were gone in a little over 48 hours.


I too followed Yagi's suggestion by emailing support to remove pre-roll for each of my Roamio's. They just replied they will remove within 72 hours. Thank you guys/gals, I really appreciate all the help I get from this forum.


----------



## ManeJon

Mine were removed in about 12 hours - see how long it lasts


----------



## supasta

Has anyone running PiHole had TiVo remove the ads? It would be interesting to see the PiHole query logs before and after.

EDIT: Well, I hope I'll be able to find out, first-hand. I just sent an email to TiVo support. In the last two days the TiVo has been displaying an "Unable to Play" message that is not clearable. Fortunately, the TiVo clears the message after a few minutes, but the TiVo is frozen during that time. The last time it caused the TiVo to flash the screen for 5 minutes, constantly. 

This is ridiculous.


----------



## holysin

Despite setting my TiVo to only output in one resolution skipping prerolls is causing what seems to be handshaking issues between my bolt OTA and my older Denon x4000 receiver (or the projector) which requires me to hard boot (unplug) the receiver in order to get video back after skipping the ads annoyingly often. My TiVo may have also rebooted a time or two also but thankfully the pre-rolls are not causing it to routinely lock up. I have emailed TiVo customer service asking to be opted out of the pre-roll advertisements after hours on a monday and we will see what happens...


----------



## Thunderclap

supasta said:


> Has anyone running PiHole had TiVo remove the ads? It would be interesting to see the PiHole query logs before and after.


I've seen four links in the Pihole query log, not sure what accesses the adverts specifically. I've blacklisted the two I think are the culprits and will report back after some tests.


----------



## holysin

holysin said:


> I have emailed TiVo customer service asking to be opted out of the pre-roll advertisements after hours on a monday and we will see what happens...


 In case anyone is keeping track of the timing 7 hours after sending my email I heard back that my request was processed and it could take 72 hours to take effect. Maybe 8 hours later I have not received an advertisement in the last several shows I've watched however on system information my "opt status" is still listed as "opt neutral". Either way I am optimistically happy.


----------



## Thunderclap

So far, after blacklisting pixel.tivo.com and prod.adgwy.tivo.com, I haven’t seen any ads. Loading a show seems to be slightly faster too. If this changes I’ll report back.


----------



## supasta

holysin said:


> In case anyone is keeping track of the timing 7 hours after sending my email I heard back that my request was processed and it could take 72 hours to take effect. Maybe 8 hours later I have not received an advertisement in the last several shows I've watched however on system information my "opt status" is still listed as "opt neutral". Either way I am optimistically happy.


Emailed yesterday. No response as of this writing.


----------



## Fofer

holysin said:


> however on system information my "opt status" is still listed as "opt neutral".


AFAIK this has nothing to do with the pre-roll ads.


----------



## tim_m

holysin said:


> Despite setting my TiVo to only output in one resolution skipping prerolls is causing what seems to be handshaking issues between my bolt OTA and my older Denon x4000 receiver (or the projector) which requires me to hard boot (unplug) the receiver in order to get video back after skipping the ads annoyingly often. My TiVo may have also rebooted a time or two also but thankfully the pre-rolls are not causing it to routinely lock up. I have emailed TiVo customer service asking to be opted out of the pre-roll advertisements after hours on a monday and we will see what happens...


Give it time. I was having the ads for a week or so before it started routinely locking it up.


----------



## cwoody222

Had my 2nd reboot during a preroll Sunday night. Chatted online to opt-out Monday morning. By Tuesday morning, prerolls were removed from my Roamio.

To my surprise, I don't even get the "arrow screen" any more. Shows start playing immediately - very snappy.

Let's hope my opt-out status remains in place.

I only started receiving actual ads a few weeks ago, but had been seeing the arrow screen for months. Even when I started to get ads, I still got just the arrow screen more often than not. My A93 Mini has never seen an arrow screen nor ad.


----------



## tim_m

cwoody222 said:


> Had my 2nd reboot during a preroll Sunday night. Chatted online to opt-out Monday morning. By Tuesday morning, prerolls were removed from my Roamio.
> 
> To my surprise, I don't even get the "arrow screen" any more. Shows start playing immediately - very snappy.
> 
> Let's hope my opt-out status remains in place.
> 
> I only started receiving actual ads a few weeks ago, but had been seeing the arrow screen for months. Even when I started to get ads, I still got just the arrow screen more often than not. My A93 Mini has never seen an arrow screen nor ad.


Mine started out like that. At first it was just the arrow and the ads were hit went miss. In the last week or so they were on everything and that's when the reboots started.


----------



## David Platt

Sigh. I emailed to get my pre-roll ads removed a couple of days ago. They are-- but now my guide data is borked. One of my local networks is listed as no data available, and my ABC is showing up as my NBC channel. The timing sure is suspect.


----------



## DouglasPHill

I don't know that I've had any problems from these ads but I don't understand why Tivo doesn't remove this "feature" until it is much more bug free.
I guess the population of Tivo users is the beta test group.


----------



## Tony_T

Wow, TiVo now running Netflix Ads in the Guide.
Before we had TiVo+”Ads” (in quotes, as they were sudo Ads as they did have free content on these channels), but now they are plain Advertisements.


----------



## dwsutton

Just sad. Been a TiVo user since series 1. Now the technology that is designed to skip advertising as well as record shows is now ADDING ads that have to be skipped. Am I the only one pissed and shocked that this would be the direction TIVO corporate thinks we should accept ? I shouldn't have to "opt out" or contact customer service to prevent pre roll advertising. Here's how I will respond - when my series 5 craps out I will contact my old friends at TIVO and tell them they can stick their service where the sun don't shine. My Comcast X1 service is almost as good and with the availability of streaming having a dedicated storage box isn't that critical - someone should let TIVO know IMO.


----------



## Tony_T

At least we can opt-out of the pre-roll Ads. Can’t with the Guide Ads.


----------



## JoeKustra

I never accepted the TiVo+ ToS. Right now I have no in-guide ads but I have two TiVo+ "ads" on each page of the guide. This could change at any time.


----------



## Tony_T

I never accepted the TOS either, but I have the Guide Ads.
Even Netflix Ads now. What’s next? Progressive and Geico Ads?


----------



## DouglasPHill

Tony_T said:


> At least we can opt-out of the pre-roll Ads. Can't with the Guide Ads.


Interesting, over the weekend I sent them a support email mentioning that using 1/6th or more of my guide grid for ads was unacceptable.
Just got a response, said they were going to get rid of the pre roll ads (I did not mention pre roll ads I was writing about guide ads)
Now the help desk person's response makes a little bit of sense.


----------



## manhole

DouglasPHill said:


> Interesting, over the weekend I sent them a support email mentioning that using 1/6th or more of my guide grid for ads was unacceptable.
> Just got a response, said they were going to get rid of the pre roll ads (I did not mention pre roll ads I was writing about guide ads)
> Now the help desk person's response makes a little bit of sense.


Did it read like they are going to get rid of preroll ads in general, or just your account?


----------



## Fofer

JoeKustra said:


> I never accepted the TiVo+ ToS. Right now I have no in-guide ads but I have two TiVo+ "ads" on each page of the guide. This could change at any time.


The TiVo+ (and now, Netflix) ads in the guide are the same "in-guide ads" everyone is talking about.


----------



## DouglasPHill

Just my account, I apologise for not being more precise.


----------



## kludger

I had talked to chat support 2 weeks back and they agreed to remove the pre-roll ads from my Roamio and Vox-Mini, all was good for 2 weeks and then the ads came back yesterday... 
I'm going to try and pi-hole blacklist and see if that works, otherwise, I'm just going to downgrade and start planning how to get off the Tivo ecosystem, maybe time to cut the cord and embrace the new world.
Frustrating that they would treat loyal customers like this, extra frustrating that we have to contact support to opt-out and can't do it online or via menu, ridiculous and unacceptable that even after we contact support eventually the ads come back, this is a business case example on how to implode your loyal customer base and drive your company into the toilet.


----------



## Schmye Bubbula

I've been away from these forums for months, and came today to see posts about the new streaming box, but saw this thread stand out like a sore thumb. I've never seen an ad — pre-roll, are they? — on my Roamio, but I've had the AdGuard DNS IP addresses in my router all along. "AdGuard" doesn't show up in a search of this thread, but a lot of "Pi-hole" posts come up and seem to largely report success, although I've never gotten even a clue of ads from any delays or artifacts that some have reported with Pi-hole ad blocking. So I don't know whether AdGuard DNS is doing a real good job, or whether I've just never been placed into the ads program in the first place yet. If anyone wants to test this, the AdGuard DNS addresses to block ads, tracking, and phishing are:
176.103.130.130
176.103.130.131


----------



## Fofer

kludger said:


> I had talked to chat support 2 weeks back and they agreed to remove the pre-roll ads from my Roamio and Vox-Mini, all was good for 2 weeks and then the ads came back yesterday...
> I'm going to try and pi-hole blacklist and see if that works, otherwise, I'm just going to downgrade and start planning how to get off the Tivo ecosystem, maybe time to cut the cord and embrace the new world.
> Frustrating that they would treat loyal customers like this, extra frustrating that we have to contact support to opt-out and can't do it online or via menu, ridiculous and unacceptable that even after we contact support eventually the ads come back, this is a business case example on how to implode your loyal customer base and drive your company into the toilet.


Agreed. And any other workaround or downgrade misses the point. All of this just illustrates that TiVo is a rudderless company, a dead man walking.


----------



## ManeJon

I had them remove the ads which they did (and still have) a couple of weeks ago - except for 1 program. Jeopardy still has the ads but nothing else does. Very strange but now I've probably jinxed it


----------



## supasta

supasta said:


> Has anyone running PiHole had TiVo remove the ads? It would be interesting to see the PiHole query logs before and after.
> 
> EDIT: Well, I hope I'll be able to find out, first-hand. I just sent an email to TiVo support. In the last two days the TiVo has been displaying an "Unable to Play" message that is not clearable. Fortunately, the TiVo clears the message after a few minutes, but the TiVo is frozen during that time. The last time it caused the TiVo to flash the screen for 5 minutes, constantly.
> 
> This is ridiculous.


Update. As in my previous post, I called to have the pre-roll ads removed. I was still getting reboots on my Roamio Pro. This was with the PiHole enabled. The reboots have completely stopped. So, if you are getting reboots or other issues on your TiVo device, make sure you call and have them removed. I also received the 21.9.7.v7 update. This was almost concurrently, so it is difficult to confirm which happened first, and if the update retained the request.

Background aside, the TiVo is no longer making requests to the blocked add server addresses, according to the PiHole query log. This is some confirmation that the add server addresses listed in this thread are correct. The PiHole log no longer shows requests to any of the blocked add servers.

The PiHole did a great job of blocking the ads, but the delay in the show starting and the arrow screen displaying was present. After requesting to have the pre-roll ads removed, there is no delay and no arrow screen. Shows play instantly. And, most importantly, my Roamio isn't freezing and rebooting several times daily.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I had the ads removed a while back, and now have 21.9.7.v7 (for maybe a week?). I haven't experienced any new ads.


----------



## supasta

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I had the ads removed a while back, and now have 21.9.7.v7 (for maybe a week?). I haven't experienced any new ads.


That suggests that disabling the ads might survive a TiVo software update now.

EDIT: ..._disabling_ the ads...


----------



## Fofer

supasta said:


> That suggests that the ads might survive a TiVo software update now.


If by "ads" you mean "the opt out flag" then I agree with you


----------



## shwru980r

The revenue from the ads must outweigh the cost of the customer support calls they generate. I doubt anyone would call in to request additional ads.


----------



## gamo62

Noelmel said:


> For everyone getting them now on Roamio did the end of your version change. I know most of us have 21.9.7.v3 but after that I have 840-6-840 I've seen earlier in the thread and in others reporting the end of the version having letters
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you have the Roamio Pro? I have the Pro, called TiVo and they said that 21.9.6v5 was the latest.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

I have a Roamio Pro with 21.9.7.v7.

But only for a few days, so it's probably still rolling out?


----------



## Noelmel

gamo62 said:


> Do you have the Roamio Pro? I have the Pro, called TiVo and they said that 21.9.6v5 was the latest.


Yes a pro and it's 21.9.7v7 now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles R

supasta said:


> The PiHole did a great job of blocking the ads, but the delay in the show starting and the arrow screen displaying was present.


If you block mm1.tivoservice.com recordings will begin instantly. However there can be some consequences as has been posted numerous times... such no station logos.


----------



## Jed1

The only ad I seen since the update is one for a series season finale on Fox network. Other than that it is just the grey arrow and then the recording starts.


----------



## gamo62

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I have a Roamio Pro with 21.9.7.v7.
> 
> But only for a few days, so it's probably still rolling out?


I never got v3.


----------



## ManeJon

I still think it is weird that I still get ads on Jeopardy but nothing else - I can live with that rather than the risk that everything will get screwed up if I try and get something done


----------



## bilj65

My Bolt has 21.9.7.v7 and I am sick and tired of it rebooting once or twice a day due these ads. if something else was recording, I just lost a few minutes of it. I will call and ask to be blocked. My TiVo gets buggier and buggier all the time. About once every couple months I find ALL my recordings mysteriously deleted. They are in deleted folder and can be recovered one-by-one but that’s tedious.


----------



## Narkul

My Bolt updated to 21.9.7.v7 a week or so ago, the pre-rolls did not come back with the update. My bolt also suffered reboots before having the ads removed. I've got a Stream4k on the way, but I don't feel very optimistic about Tivo keeping it updated and bug free when they can't even keep their bread and butter properly running.


----------



## CinciDVR

Charles R said:


> If you block mm1.tivoservice.com recordings will begin instantly. However there can be some consequences as has been posted numerous times... such no station logos.


That hasn't worked for me. I installed pihole about two weeks ago, and it's impact on blocking the short advert has been inconsistent. Immediately after I reboot the Tivo, recordings start instantly and the Tivo+ ads are blocked in the guide. But the longer the Tivo runs, the more likely the arrows come back on playback and the Tivo+ ads appear in the guide.

My Tivo is on a power timer and it and the tuning adapter are shutoff at 4:50am Monday morning. The tuning adapter comes back on at 4:55am, and the Tivo at 5:00am. I do this because if I don't the tuning adapter eventually quits working right and has to be power cycled. Anyway, I see Tivo attempts to contact mm1.tivoservice.com every ten seconds starting at 5am. Then they stop at 7:33:43am. Here is the pihole log for about an hour after that:

2020-05-11 08:26:46 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:25:47 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:25:09 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:24:48 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:23:49 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:22:52 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:22:22 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:19:48 A h1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:17:21 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:16:22 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:15:23 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:14:24 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:13:26 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:12:36 A api-global.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:05:12 A nrdp.prod.ftl.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:04:46 A h1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 08:01:19 A nrdp.prod.ftl.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:54:13 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:53:15 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:52:15 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded) 
2020-05-11 07:51:16 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:50:17 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:49:45 A h1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:49:39 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:49:18 A push.prod.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:34:52 A nrdp.prod.ftl.netflix.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:34:42 A h1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 OK (forwarded)
2020-05-11 07:33:43 A mm1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 Blocked (blacklist)
2020-05-11 07:33:33 A mm1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 Blocked (blacklist)
2020-05-11 07:33:22 A mm1.tivoservice.com 192.168.2.90 Blocked (blacklist)

No attempts to access mm1.tivoservice.com appear in the log between 7:33:43 am and now. When I played recorded programs last night, the stupid arrows were there and a couple seconds of blank screen would go by before the program started to play. This has been my experience since installing pihole. So are you blocking more than just mm1.tivoservice.com?


----------



## supasta

@CinciDVR
Take a look at this post:
TiVo inserting short advert before playing a recording

That is what worked for me. I never blocked mm1.tivoservice.com due to the reports that one might lose channel logos, and some other potential issues. When blocking mm1.tivoservice.com, it is my understanding that you unblock it as soon as the TiVo completes startup. This might be an issue with your setup.

Note that with PiHole blocking you will still see the arrow screen and a small delay, just no ad.

I ended up calling TiVo to have the ads removed. That removed the arrows screen and the delay when starting a show. Recordings now play immediately. Ultimately, I think it's worth the call to TiVo.


----------



## CinciDVR

supasta said:


> Note that with PiHole blocking you will still see the arrow screen and a small delay, just no ad.


Interesting. Others have reported that blocking the appropriate domain(s) would eliminate the arrows and delay. And right after I reboot the Tivo when I play a recorded show it does start playing immediately.

Thanks for the link. Of the five domains listed, two don't ever appear in my two weeks of pihole data. Two are already being blocked by Gravity lists. And the fifth one I added right after I made my last post. We'll see if it helps. I suppose another possibility is that I haven't redirected my two minis to the pihole. I don't know if them getting through to any of the blocked domains would somehow allow the main Roamio to, but they've both been in sleep mode since I installed pihole. Just the same, I think I'll go redirect them to the pihole now.

I hate talking to customer service reps with a fiery hot passion. Chatting with them is only slightly more acceptable. I already had a Raspberry Pi setup so adding pihole was a simple thing. It's only a temporary solution anyway to tide me over until I've watched the remaining recorded shows on my Roamio so that I can sidegrade to the previous Tivo firmware. Besides not having the stupid preroll ads, it's snappier than Hyrda on my Roamio Basic.


----------



## Charles R

I called and had the ads removed so I can't do any further testing. However with my Roamio I found (tested numerous times)...

mm1.tivoservice.com - if blocked it will prevent guide ads. If you removed it after booting the ads will come back rather soon (on older releases it would take days).
mm1.tivoservice.com - if blocked by itself no arrows or ads (again tested multiple times).
prod.adgwy.tivo.com - if blocked by itself arrows however no ads (with a slight delay).
Regarding the pre-roll ads I only tested for a short while as basically as soon as they appeared I had them removed. This was prior to the v7 release and on a Roamio. Other versions and models I can't speak to...


----------



## pawzKeeper2

I called TiVo Support and they did not give me any grief in removing the pre-roll ads from both our devices. Said it w/b 2-3 business days, so we'll see by Wednesday! THANK YOU to everyone for the help!


----------



## PajamaFeet

pawzKeeper2 said:


> I called TiVo Support and they did not give me any grief in removing the pre-roll ads from both our devices. Said it w/b 2-3 business days, so we'll see by Wednesday! THANK YOU to everyone for the help!


I wish I would have called instead of trying to get this done via chat. The pre-roll ads have been crashing my Bolt Vox every day or two for a few weeks now. It took me a while to research online what was causing it and what the annoying ads were called. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the info. I should have picked up the phone, because chat only made me more frustrated. The rep wouldn't even give me a timeline to expect a fix and would not remove the pre-roll ads.

Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:15:48 AM): We apologize for the inconvenience this caused you. We received similar reports with this issue and we are are currently working on getting this fixed as quickly as possible. 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:04 AM): I'm going to include your case on our tracker to work on this Pre roll ssue rebooting your box. 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:14 AM): We will notify you once we have any update.
... 
Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:10 AM): How will I be contacted once someone has looked at it? 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:21 AM): You will be contacted via call or Email. 
Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:36 AM): How long should I expect to wait before I am contacted? 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:46 AM): We do not ahve any specific time for it as we are still working on the issue. 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:07 AM): Rest assured, you will be notified. 
Me (6/16/2020, 11:25:21 AM): And in the interim, I just have to live with the unit crashing all the time? 
Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:50 AM): Unfortunately. We will do our best to fixed it as soon as possible.


----------



## pfiagra

PajamaFeet said:


> I wish I would have called instead of trying to get this done via chat. The pre-roll ads have been crashing my Bolt Vox every day or two for a few weeks now. It took me a while to research online what was causing it and what the annoying ads were called. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the info. I should have picked up the phone, because chat only made me more frustrated. The rep wouldn't even give me a timeline to expect a fix and would not remove the pre-roll ads.
> 
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:15:48 AM): We apologize for the inconvenience this caused you. We received similar reports with this issue and we are are currently working on getting this fixed as quickly as possible.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:04 AM): I'm going to include your case on our tracker to work on this Pre roll ssue rebooting your box.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:14 AM): We will notify you once we have any update.
> ...
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:10 AM): How will I be contacted once someone has looked at it?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:21 AM): You will be contacted via call or Email.
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:36 AM): How long should I expect to wait before I am contacted?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:46 AM): We do not ahve any specific time for it as we are still working on the issue.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:07 AM): Rest assured, you will be notified.
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:25:21 AM): And in the interim, I just have to live with the unit crashing all the time?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:50 AM): Unfortunately. We will do our best to fixed it as soon as possible.


did you specifically ask to opt out of pre-roll ads?

from your chat transcript, it seems as if you just shared that your dvr was crashing due to the pre-roll ads.


----------



## PajamaFeet

pfiagra said:


> did you specifically ask to opt out of pre-roll ads?
> 
> from your chat transcript, it seems as if you just shared that your dvr was crashing due to the pre-roll ads.


I did specifically ask but did not include that part of the chat.


----------



## pawzKeeper2

PajamaFeet said:


> I wish I would have called instead of trying to get this done via chat. The pre-roll ads have been crashing my Bolt Vox every day or two for a few weeks now. It took me a while to research online what was causing it and what the annoying ads were called. Thanks to everyone in this thread for the info. I should have picked up the phone, because chat only made me more frustrated. The rep wouldn't even give me a timeline to expect a fix and would not remove the pre-roll ads.
> 
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:15:48 AM): We apologize for the inconvenience this caused you. We received similar reports with this issue and we are are currently working on getting this fixed as quickly as possible.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:04 AM): I'm going to include your case on our tracker to work on this Pre roll ssue rebooting your box.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:21:14 AM): We will notify you once we have any update.
> ...
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:10 AM): How will I be contacted once someone has looked at it?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:21 AM): You will be contacted via call or Email.
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:24:36 AM): How long should I expect to wait before I am contacted?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:24:46 AM): We do not ahve any specific time for it as we are still working on the issue.
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:07 AM): Rest assured, you will be notified.
> Me (6/16/2020, 11:25:21 AM): And in the interim, I just have to live with the unit crashing all the time?
> Jenelyn (6/16/2020, 11:25:50 AM): Unfortunately. We will do our best to fixed it as soon as possible.


Follow up - I had to call two additional times because they removed the ads from the bedroom device of which we were not having the issue (being we don't watch recorded shows much) vs the living room TiVo where the problem remained. I ended up having to shout at the CS Rep to give me a manager. When the manager got on the phone she tried to accomplish the removal while I waited on-line but could not reach someone. She promised to keep at it and that the living room TiVo w/b fixed w/in 24 hours. It was. We have not had a single restart issue since removing those stupid ads. For a company whose claim to fame is "skipping" over commercials what a load of crock that introducing additional ads would cause such a severe problem and KNOWING SO they continue to frustrate their customer base rather than apply the fix globally. Hot n cold about TiVo right now!


----------



## tim_m

I had success getting them removed via email. It only took one email, I specifically stated this feature was crashing the Roamio.


----------



## PajamaFeet

pawzKeeper2 said:


> Follow up - I had to call two additional times because ...
> I ended up having to shout at the CS Rep to give me a manager.


Thanks for sharing that. I really don't want to talk to someone on the phone and would end up getting pretty angry with that kind of runaround. Reading about adding a Raspberry Pi server with Pi-Hole to get rid of these pre-roll ads myself. I'm not keen on spending the time and effort buying and setting it up, but I also hate settling in with hubby on the sofa to watch a show together and the TiVo crashes, again. It spoils the little bit of us time we have. It's like "what else in our normal life doesn't work anymore?" and definitely first world problems. It shouldn't be so difficult to fix, when they know their served up ads are causing repeated crashes.


----------



## Fofer

PajamaFeet said:


> It shouldn't be so difficult to fix, when they know their served up ads are causing repeated crashes.


10000% this. And it's been going on for MONTHS.

This, more than anything in the 19.5 years I've been a customer, tells me all I needed to know about TiVo's current management. Their *handling* of the rollout bothers me even more than the notion of ad-insertion in the first place! Everything about this, is just wrong and pathetic.


----------



## weaver

tim_m said:


> I had success getting them removed via email. It only took one email, I specifically stated this feature was crashing the Roamio.


I did the same. Email is a relatively painless way to remove the preroll ads.


----------



## Brighton Line

weaver said:


> I did the same. Email is a relatively painless way to remove the preroll ads.


I tried chat and email to remove pre-roll adds from both Roamio but it took me opening two separate incidents to get both removed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

FWIW, I went through chat (a while back), and they were gone within a couple of days...


----------



## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> 10000% this. And it's been going on for MONTHS.
> 
> This, more than anything in the 19.5 years I've been a customer, tells me all I needed to know about TiVo's current management. Their *handling* of the rollout bothers me even more than the notion of ad-insertion in the first place! Everything about this, is just wrong and pathetic.


LOL, probly shouldn't mention that I said before that Tivo will never fix this permanently and you'll have to pester them every time they force it back on your Tivos. Nor that the easy answer is to downgrade to TE3.


----------



## Fofer

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL, probly shouldn't mention that I said before that Tivo will never fix this permanently and you'll have to pester them every time they force it back on your Tivos. Nor that the easy answer is to downgrade to TE3.


LOL. Honestly after experiencing modern interfaces, I *abhor* TE3 and would feel ashamed with that on my 78" living room television. It's embarrassingly bad. And fact that it doesn't support CEC while TE4 does, is a complete dealbreaker for me, because I am not going to change my remote control system and overall UX to accommodate an older, ugly interface. I appreciate how everything works well with working CEC.

As I have said multiple times, yet you seem obsessed to try and convince me otherwise, is that TE3 is an *unacceptable* solution for me, it's a downgrade. I would leave TiVo entirely, and switch my default TV viewing interface to YouTube TV and/or SiliconDust DVR with the Channels app on my 4K AppleTV before I would be willing to downgrade my TiVos to TE3. I've already been playing around with those solutions with great success.

And I haven't even seen a pre-roll ad on my Roamio for some reason. I'm just preparing ahead. So your gloating on this point is awkward and undeserved.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Fofer said:


> LOL. Honestly after experiencing modern interfaces, I *abhor* TE3 and would feel ashamed with that on my 78" living room television. It's embarrassingly bad. And fact that it doesn't support CEC while TE4 does, is a complete dealbreaker for me, because I am not going to change my remote control system and overall UX to accommodate an older, ugly interface. I appreciate how everything works well with working CEC.
> 
> As I have said multiple times, yet you seem obsessed to try and convince me otherwise, is that TE3 is an *unacceptable* solution for me, it's a downgrade. I would leave TiVo entirely, and switch my default TV viewing interface to YouTube TV and/or SiliconDust DVR with the Channels app on my 4K AppleTV before I would be willing to downgrade my TiVos to TE3. I've already been playing around with those solutions with great success.
> 
> And I haven't even seen a pre-roll ad on my Roamio for some reason. I'm just preparing ahead. So your gloating on this point is awkward and undeserved.


I still get the warm and fuzzies seeing that deep blue color of TE3 on my screen, it looks magnificent on my 55 inch Samsung. The black is so boring, it's like someone from Comcast designed as opposed to a true artisan.


----------



## DigitalDawn

I love TE3. No way I am going to upgrade. But I can appreciate a different point of view and it's great that TiVo is allowing us to keep TE3 on many of our devices.


----------



## tim_m

Brighton Line said:


> I tried chat and email to remove pre-roll adds from both Roamio but it took me opening two separate incidents to get both removed.


I guess i was one of the lucky ones to get it taken care of after one email. It didn't even take a full 72 hours in my case.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> LOL. Honestly after experiencing modern interfaces, I *abhor* TE3 and would feel ashamed with that on my 78" living room television. It's embarrassingly bad. And fact that it doesn't support CEC while TE4 does, is a complete dealbreaker for me, because I am not going to change my remote control system and overall UX to accommodate an older, ugly interface. I appreciate how everything works well with working CEC.
> 
> As I have said multiple times, yet you seem obsessed to try and convince me otherwise, is that TE3 is an *unacceptable* solution for me, it's a downgrade. I would leave TiVo entirely, and switch my default TV viewing interface to YouTube TV and/or SiliconDust DVR with the Channels app on my 4K AppleTV before I would be willing to downgrade my TiVos to TE3. I've already been playing around with those solutions with great success.
> 
> And I haven't even seen a pre-roll ad on my Roamio for some reason. I'm just preparing ahead. So your gloating on this point is awkward and undeserved.


It's embarrassing? Do guests and family members laugh asking why your TV is from the 80's? It's on my 135" screen in my theater room. Have zero issues with it. I don't need CEC though, and I never once had to complain to tivo about any commercials/ads.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

Yes, it’s embarrassing. Makes me cringe. I haven’t had to call yet either. I just know TE3 doesn’t belong in my AV setup anymore so gloating about it as any kind of “solution” to this TE4 concern... is daft.


----------



## dbpaddler

One man's embarrassment is another's nostalgia. Te4 is cold and bland looking. No style. No personality. No real differentiation. If you don't need whatever functionality it provides over te3, I just don't see the point of using it and having to whine every so often about calling in and complaining. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## mattyro7878

I happen to like both UI's. The look of TE3 imo, is lovely. On my Premiere it is a little wonky. When I hit the Tivo button I get a black screen with a corner of video for 3 seconds then the options appear. By no means a deal breaker. TE4 seems a little more sophisticated (because it is) and has no live guide which is so nice. One click and you see whats on for 4-8 hours. Nothing better. If Tivo is to survive going forward, TE4 is the compatible answer. Thats just the way it is.


----------



## dbpaddler

Well considering there is zero new equipment I have interest in, I don't care if it dies. If they want to make a Dvr that can do either cable or OTA and has android tv underneath, then I'll entertain it. I just don't see the point in buying new equipment, at a premium to boot, that limits me to one type of live TV watching and still requires me to have a separate streaming device.

So no love lost if tivo dies. I'll figure out a solution and move on. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnagel

Had to google what TE3 looked like as I just got my Roamio 2 years ago and it came with TE4. Wow, that pretty much looks like my DirecTV tivo, which I had easily 15 years ago I'm guessing. Not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely it's nostalgic looking for me and brings back memories.


----------



## dianebrat

Fofer said:


> Yes, it's embarrassing. Makes me cringe. I haven't had to call yet either. I just know TE3 doesn't belong in my AV setup anymore so gloating about it as any kind of "solution" to this TE4 concern... is daft.


The problem is that there are proponants on both sides, and the passion for folks on each side can be pretty strong, but when you go past "I'm a TE4 person because it offers me these features" and those of us on the other side say "and I'm a TE3 person for these reasons" both sides have valid points, it's when you start making what "I" view as irrelevant derogatory statements like "TE3 is embarrassing to look at" that you've now made it personal and that's why people on the other side take it personally.

Me? I'll never give up my Live Guide, so that eliminates TE4 and its pre-roll ads and Tivo+ from ever coming near my system, I view those as "embarrassing"


----------



## mtnagel

What’s live guide?


----------



## Fofer

dbpaddler said:


> One man's embarrassment is another's nostalgia. Te4 is cold and bland looking. No style. No personality. No real differentiation.


I disagree and would describe TE3 that way, maybe worse.

And "nostalgia" in interface and overall UX is NOT what I'm looking for in my home theater. I find that rationalization to be somewhat laughable. A VCR would be "nostalgic" too.


----------



## JoeKustra

mtnagel said:


> What's live guide?












Sorry about the quality. The manual itself isn't so good either.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> I disagree and would describe TE3 that way, maybe worse.
> 
> And "nostalgia" in interface is NOT what I'm looking for in my home theater. I find that rationalization to be somewhat laughable. A VCR would be "nostalgic" too.


As mentioned above, that's why it's a "personal" experience. Bright primary colors pop on my jvc. Dull gray, not so much.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

My distaste goes far beyond mere color scheme, though. 

And my TV and movie watching these days goes very far beyond DVR’ing broadcast and cable shows. As a streaming device, the TiVo (on TE3 and TE4, to be fair) is an absolute pathetic joke. Downgrading to TE3 just to avoid the possibility of persist pre-roll ads and removing CEC along with it (to me) is a losing game.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> My distaste goes far beyond mere color scheme.
> 
> And my TV and movie watching these days goes very far beyond DVR'ing broadcast and cable shows. As a streaming device, the TiVo (on TE3 and TE4, to be fair) is an absolute pathetic joke.


Was going to say, that's a general tivo issue regardless of firmware.

Also why I said I don't care if tivo dies at this point. I have no interest in their new dvrs since you're forced to buy separate boxes for cable and OTA. And they still don't integrate a complete streaming experience. I might even sell my Bolt and just get a roamio OTA since I have a roamio pro if I go back to cable. And the roamio has better tuners, and I'm all wired. So the Bolt doesn't really offer me anything.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnagel

Fofer said:


> I disagree and would describe TE3 that way, maybe worse.
> 
> And "nostalgia" in interface and overall UX is NOT what I'm looking for in my home theater. I find that rationalization to be somewhat laughable. A VCR would be "nostalgic" too.


I didn't say I was going to switch because it was nostalgic. I really don't care about my OTA DVRs UI that much as I don't use it that much. We stream a lot more now. I do find it interesting how passionately you do care about the UI. 


JoeKustra said:


> View attachment 50059
> 
> 
> Sorry about the quality. The manual itself isn't so good either.


Ah. I don't really care about that so I'm not missing anything. Maybe if I had cable I'd care a little more. But with OTA, I'm rarely looking at the guide.


----------



## wbrightfl

dianebrat said:


> The problem is that there are proponants on both sides, and the passion for folks on each side can be pretty strong, but when you go past "I'm a TE4 person because it offers me these features" and those of us on the other side say "and I'm a TE3 person for these reasons" both sides have valid points, it's when you start making what "I" view as irrelevant derogatory statements like "TE3 is embarrassing to look at" that you've now made it personal and that's why people on the other side take it personally.
> 
> Me? I'll never give up my Live Guide, so that eliminates TE4 and its pre-roll ads and Tivo+ from ever coming near my system, I view those as "embarrassing"


Diane, I could not agree with you more. Well said.


----------



## Fofer

Suggesting that *interface* is an irrelevant and non-differentiating feature is a non-starter with me. I’m not criticizing anyone else’s priorities, I’m obviously sharing my own opinion on the matter. 

User interface and overall user experience separates Windows from macOS, Android from iOS, Tesla from Honda, Google Assistant from Alexa. 

Each option gets you to roughly the same place, but they go about it quite differently. And the little things always end up adding up. 

UI and UX is why I chose a DVR over a new VCR in 2000. UI and UX are practically *everything.* For me, at least.


----------



## dbpaddler

OK. Thanks for sharing. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dianebrat

Fofer said:


> Suggesting that *interface* is an irrelevant and non-differentiating feature is a non-starter with me. I'm not criticizing anyone else's priorities, I'm obviously sharing my own opinion on the matter.
> User interface and overall user experience separates Windows from macOS, Android from iOS, Tesla from Honda, Google Assistant from Alexa.
> Each option gets you to roughly the same place, but they go about it quite differently. And the little things always end up adding up.
> UI and UX is why I chose a DVR over a new VCR in 2000. UI and UX are practically *everything.* For me, at least.


I view features I use and leverage on a regular basis vs extraneous advertising that I will never use as deciding factors on a DVR. As I said before and you blew right by, when you make it personal and toss insults for NO OBVIOUS REASON, people react personally, you've been around long enough to know that as have I.

If you'd drop the "TE4 is oh so awesome and TE3 is for bottom dwellers" approach and give some respect that others have different views then you would get respect back.


----------



## Fofer

I’m insulting the interface and overall usability of a product, not people. I haven’t called anyone “bottom-dwellers” or demeaned anybody, and the hyperbole isn’t helping this conversation. 

I haven’t even claimed TE4 is “oh so awesome,” either. Far from it. Seems you’re blowing past many points in my posts, too.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> LOL. Honestly after experiencing modern interfaces, I *abhor* TE3 and would feel ashamed with that on my 78" living room television. It's embarrassingly bad. And fact that it doesn't support CEC while TE4 does, is a complete dealbreaker for me, because I am not going to change my remote control system and overall UX to accommodate an older, ugly interface. I appreciate how everything works well with working CEC.


*shrug* you're the one *****ing 10,000% times this about it, new folks who don't read entire threads need to know there is an answer to the problem.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mtnagel said:


> Had to google what TE3 looked like as I just got my Roamio 2 years ago and it came with TE4. Wow, that pretty much looks like my DirecTV tivo, which I had easily 15 years ago I'm guessing. Not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely it's nostalgic looking for me and brings back memories.


This is exactly why TE3 needs to continually be mentioned as a solution to Tivo's awful forced ad decision and the never-ending botched rollout.


----------



## Fofer

Meh, anytime anyone recommends TE3 as the “solution” to this issue, invites the necessary feedback about what functionality that downgrade would remove and how it would affect the overall UX. 

This conversation also speaks to the overall direction that TiVo, as a company, is clearly headed. I could just as easily tout Channels DVR or YouTube TV as a “solution” to the problems and limitations of TE3, then.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> Meh, anytime anyone recommends TE3 as the "solution" to this issue, invites the necessary feedback about what functionality that downgrade would remove and how it would affect the overall UX.
> 
> This conversation also speaks to the overall direction that TiVo, as a company, is clearly headed. I could just as easily tout Channels DVR or YouTube TV as a "solution" to the problems and limitations of TE3, then.


It's only a functionality downgrade to you, or your needs. Not everyone has your needs or shares your taste.

And no, you can't just easily tout those because people are already invested in Tivo Hardware. The money has been paid. You're premise is to start paying for a streaming service or invest in new hardware. While Te4 is your preference, which is fine, the latter part, you're just wrong.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

It all comes down to personal priorities. Some solutions cost more money, that’s true. That shouldn’t mean they are disqualified as a solution. Do the pros outweigh the cons? That’s what it comes down to.

It’s up to each individual to decide what works best for them.


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> It all comes down to personal priorities. Some solutions cost more money, that's true. That shouldn't mean they are disqualified as a solution. Do the pros outweigh the cons? That's what it comes down to.
> 
> It's up to each individual to decide what works best for them.


Umm... This is a Tivo thread talking about preroll ads. People are looking for solutions for their tivo hardware. So yes, it's wrong. I'm all for differing opinions, but last I checked this isn't a Tivo alternatives thread. You suggesting to use other services and ditch the tivo hardware is just nonsensical. Seriously, you're letting your own personal distaste for TE3 overshadow pretty much the entire thread at this point, and it clearly shows.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

The ignore button remains a very valid option for you. I haven’t participated unkindly nor have I broken any forum rule.

After 20 years as a loyalist to this platform, I’m clearly disappointed by how badly TiVo has dropped the ball. 

That said, the good news for you is, I’ll probably be moving to greener and more forward-thinking pastures as a result, so won’t participate in these sad threads anymore.


----------



## Fofer

It’s one of how many dozen discussing the same thing?

On a TiVo forum! It’s not like this topic exists in a vacuum.


----------



## dianebrat

Fofer said:


> Meh, anytime anyone recommends TE3 as the "solution" to this issue, invites the necessary feedback about what functionality that downgrade would remove and how it would affect the overall UX.
> 
> This conversation also speaks to the overall direction that TiVo, as a company, is clearly headed. I could just as easily tout Channels DVR or YouTube TV as a "solution" to the problems and limitations of TE3, then.


Yes, in a fair and reasonable manner, and many of us are able to do that without trashing or making insulting comments about the opposite choice so that others can make informed decisions.
To you it's a downgrade, to me it's a stable OS that offers features the other doesn't and doesn't have aggressive ad-pushing on it, seriously, it's that easy to have a reasonable conversation.


----------



## DigitalDawn

Diane, you are 100% correct.


----------



## Fofer

Except that changing from TE4 to TE3 (which loses recordings, too) is *literally* a downgrade, by the very definition of the word "downgrade."


----------



## dbpaddler

Fofer said:


> Except that changing from TE4 to TE3 (which loses recordings, too) is *literally* a downgrade, by the very definition of the word "downgrade."


In number only. Let it go. You seem to be the only one who has such vehement hatred for it you need to endlessly shout it from the mountain tops. But apparently it's not sinking in.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fofer

dbpaddler said:


> In number only. Let it go. You seem to be the only one who has such vehement hatred for it you need to endlessly shout it from the mountain tops. But apparently it's not sinking in.


Nah, one can say the same about people obsessively insisting the downgrade to TE3 is the defacto "solution" here.

You can let it go by using the ignore button. It's not my job to cater to your misplaced sensitivities. That's not how large discussion groups on the internet work.


----------



## JoeFloyd

Tivo user for 18+ years and I'm starting to look for other options. 

On my 4 tuner Roamio with TE4 I've had two reboots during Pre-Roll today when trying to stream from my 6 tuner Roamio Pro with TE3. I use streaming between Tivos frequently and today is the first time I've had two reboots within such a short period of time. Pre-Roll screen starts and then after a few seconds with no Ad the device either starts the expected program or the Tivo Boot Screen. I've had intermittent reboots since Pre-Roll was added to TE4, but today has been a particularly bad day for reboots.

Since the Tivo which rebooted was recording when the reboot occurred, I now have interrupted recordings. 

The Pre-Roll crap is such a waste of time. It doesn't work 90% of the time (no ad played which I can't say I mind other than the delay starting recording playback) and this reboot issue is definitely tied to the Pre-Roll software. 

The Tivo of the early 2000's is no longer the Tivo of today. A company which used to concentrate on giving the Tivo user control over their TV is now in the business of trying to control and influence what appears on our TVs.


----------



## ufo4sale

TiVo needs a mascot that would bring their fans back. We can make it to a reality show. If we had a time machine we could have gone back in time To conception and watch him grow up in front of the world. They would of made more money then MR Brain. But we live in “today’s” world and now TiVo is just a drop of water in the entire ocean.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

JoeFloyd said:


> Tivo user for 18+ years and I'm starting to look for other options.
> 
> On my 4 tuner Roamio with TE4 I've had two reboots during Pre-Roll today when trying to stream from my 6 tuner Roamio Pro with TE3. I use streaming between Tivos frequently and today is the first time I've had two reboots within such a short period of time. Pre-Roll screen starts and then after a few seconds with no Ad the device either starts the expected program or the Tivo Boot Screen. I've had intermittent reboots since Pre-Roll was added to TE4, but today has been a particularly bad day for reboots.
> 
> Since the Tivo which rebooted was recording when the reboot occurred, I now have interrupted recordings.
> 
> The Pre-Roll crap is such a waste of time. It doesn't work 90% of the time (no ad played which I can't say I mind other than the delay starting recording playback) and this reboot issue is definitely tied to the Pre-Roll software.
> 
> The Tivo of the early 2000's is no longer the Tivo of today. A company which used to concentrate on giving the Tivo user control over their TV is now in the business of trying to control and influence what appears on our TVs.


Hope you can get TiVo to remove the preroll ads while you consider alternatives. Failing that, as you can see from the discussion above one option is to "sidegrade" the TE4 Roamio to TE3. It should be noted that with something like pytivo desktop you can back up most shows from any TiVo to a PC, but can only move them back to a TiVo that's on TE3.

But back to the alternatives. We're transitioning to Channels DVR here [photo] [details]. It was very simple to install on a Synology NAS, and I got an HD HomeRun Prime off eBay then inserted and easily paired a CableCARD that used to be in a TiVo. Channels has a high WAF here, lol, and offers a much more modern interface than TE3 or even TE4. No preroll ads, and yes it offers automatic commercial skip.

For the Channels client apps and for Netflix/Prime/etc. streaming, I again selected the solution with the highest WAF, that being a Fire TV 4K Stick and a couple of Fire TV Edition sets. Channels also offers clients for Apple TV, iOS, and Android. For more on that and other alternatives, see the TiVo Alternatives thread.


----------



## Fofer

Now we’re talking. Forward thinkers who see the bigger picture, and the writing on the wall, offering REAL solutions.


----------



## V7Goose

By the way, did anybody happen to mention that TE3 is a perfect solution to this problem? No ads, much easier to use, more stable, more functional, and looks better too!


----------



## Salacious Crumb

V7Goose said:


> By the way, did anybody happen to mention that TE3 is a perfect solution to this problem? No ads, much easier to use, more stable, more functional, and looks better too!


If i go back to te3 dont i lose all my recordings ??
So how is it perfect ??


----------



## dianebrat

Salacious Crumb said:


> If i go back to te3 dont i lose all my recordings ??
> So how is it perfect ??


Nothing is ever perfect, life is a series of compromises that we make in service to ourselves.


----------



## Fofer

Salacious Crumb said:


> If i go back to te3 dont i lose all my recordings ??
> So how is it perfect ??


It's certainly not. Far from it. You lose recordings, as well as TE4 exclusive features like handsfree commercial skip, and CEC remote control.

So long as you're facing compromises, it's a good time to look at the bigger picture and explore the even better "solutions" out there in the real world, in 2020 and beyond.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Salacious Crumb said:


> If i go back to te3 dont i lose all my recordings ??
> So how is it perfect ??


The following is from my last post; I hope it helps if you need to do that:


Pokemon_Dad said:


> It should be noted that with something like pytivo desktop you can back up most shows from any TiVo to a PC, but can only move them back to a TiVo that's on TE3.


That post goes on to explain how we're moving on from TiVo here, now that TiVo (Rovi, Xperi) has pretty much moved on from us.


----------



## Fofer

^ and that only works on recordings from channels that don’t have the copyright flag set. For many customers with many cablecos, that eliminates lots and lots of recordings from being allowed to transfer.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

Maybe v7goose works for tivo since his info is all wrong too.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Fofer said:


> ^ and that only works on recordings from channels that don't have the copyright flag set. For many customers with many cablecos, that eliminates lots and lots of recordings from being allowed to transfer.


^ true, which is why I wrote "most shows". Being on Comcast/Xfinity and with no premium channels, this has always worked smoothly for me.

Another reason we're moving to Channels DVR instead of TE4 is that we can upload our own videos. Our TE3 TiVos have always hosted clips of our kids in parades, and other family stuff like that. Easy to do with pytivo, until TE4. I will miss TiVo though.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Fofer said:


> Now we're talking. Forward thinkers who see the bigger picture, and the writing on the wall, offering REAL solutions.


 Downgrading to TE3 is a REAL solution, regardless of your personal opinion on it.

Everything else is a Tivo alternative, not a solution to Tivo ad problems.


----------



## Salacious Crumb

slowbiscuit said:


> Downgrading to TE3 is a REAL solution, regardless of your personal opinion on it.


How is it REAL if i LOSE all my recordings.


----------



## ManeJon

Mine were removed a while ago after 1 contact - except for 1 program - I record Jeopardy every weeknight and it sill has the arrows and ad before the show - very strange. I'm not going to contact about it because that might screw everything else up.


----------



## Fofer

slowbiscuit said:


> Downgrading to TE3 is a REAL solution, regardless of your personal opinion on it.
> 
> Everything else is a Tivo alternative, not a solution to Tivo ad problems.


Seems like you're the obsessed one, you keep replying to me to push your narrative.

It's a "solution" for you, clearly not for many. What it is, is a downgrade and a workaround. With significant caveats, that many of us find completely unacceptable.

Even longtime TiVo loyalist and notable blogger Dave Zatz left TiVo for greener pastures over this pathetic situation.

https://zatznotfunny.com/2020-05/quitting-tivo/


----------



## aaronwt

I swear these ads keep pissing me off. I have them removed and initially it's only the Bolts and Roamios they get removed from. Then I have to contact them again to get removed off the Minis. Then it's fine for awhile and then the Ads show up again. Rinse and repeat.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Fofer said:


> Even longtime TiVo loyalist and notable blogger Dave Zatz left TiVo for greener pastures over this pathetic situation.
> 
> https://zatznotfunny.com/2020-05/quitting-tivo/


And in those greener pastures he went with Channels DVR, as he explains in the comments and in this TCF post:

https://www.tivocommunity.com/community/index.php?threads/tivo-launches...


----------



## NotVeryWitty

aaronwt said:


> I swear these ads keep pissing me off. I have them removed and initially it's only the Bolts and Roamios they get removed from. Then I have to contact them again to get removed off the Minis. Then it's fine for awhile and then the Ads show up again. Rinse and repeat.


Yes, but you have CEC support. ;-/


----------



## Fofer

NotVeryWitty said:


> Yes, but you have CEC support. ;-/


And automatic, hands-free commercial skip. And a refreshed, modern UI. And no lost recordings from the downgrade. ;-/


----------



## Fofer

Yes, I know about pyTivo, and no, it’s not the same.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Salacious Crumb said:


> How is it REAL if i LOSE all my recordings.


You can keep recordings from any channel that's not CP'd, so that's keeping it REAL.


----------



## hapster85

aaronwt said:


> I swear these ads keep pissing me off. I have them removed and initially it's only the Bolts and Roamios they get removed from. Then I have to contact them again to get removed off the Minis. Then it's fine for awhile and then the Ads show up again. Rinse and repeat.


I blocked TiVo's ad server from my router a month or so ago. It's not perfect, but it mostly works. You still see the gray arrows for a few seconds before playback begins. Once in a while, playback aborts after a few seconds, dropping back to TiVo Central. Then you just have to try it again. Has so far always worked on the second try, so I can live with it.


----------



## PajamaFeet

JoeFloyd said:


> Since the Tivo which rebooted was recording when the reboot occurred, I now have interrupted recordings.
> 
> The Pre-Roll crap is such a waste of time. It doesn't work 90% of the time (no ad played which I can't say I mind other than the delay starting recording playback) and this reboot issue is definitely tied to the Pre-Roll software.


This was the scenario that brought me to this thread in the first place. We time shift a morning news program daily. The show was in progress when DH clicked My Shows and tried to play from the beginning. The pre-roll ad crashed our Bolt, deleted the part of the news program already recorded and started recording again after crash recovery. We have a OnePass set up to keep only one episode. I knew to go in the Deleted Items folder to recover that first part of the news program...but what a pain. I shouldn't have to solve a technical puzzle just to watch the news on TiVo before having my first cup of coffee.

The unit had crashed probably a dozen times before that over several weeks, but that interrupted recording spurred me to look for answers. Thanks for all the info on this forum.

I first contacted Support via Chat and was not happy with the response. Rather than removing pre-roll ads for me, they said they'd "look into it." So, I sent an email a day or so later. The pre-roll ads have stopped. If they start up again, I'll email or call support again. Not at all interested in downgrading to TE3. Actually very interested to read in this thread about creating a Pi-Hole to get rid of some other ad annoyances. I work from home and even through my employer's VPN I get some inappropriate ad content. Nothing like sharing my screen about some research topic with a colleague only to have an inappropriate ad on the side of the page.

Before I read what they were called, we called the pre-roll ads "those new garbage ads."


----------



## Salacious Crumb

slowbiscuit said:


> You can keep recordings from any channel that's not CP'd, so that's keeping it REAL.


But what if i have a bunch from cpd channels.


----------



## Fofer

The more I think about it, I'm just kind of hard-pressed to think of a more "user hostile" move a company could have made. To introduce these ads, in this way, and then force informed customers to opt out, and even then, only temporarily, when they also know that these ads are crashing people's boxes?

Even if it hasn't happened to me yet, the very notion of it and TiVo's poor handling is loathsome to me, feels like blatant writing on the wall, and in principle I don't feel comfortable supporting the company anymore as a result of it. Especially when there are greener pastures for me elsewhere.

I'm also annoyed that they dropped development of the promised streaming app for AppleTV, Roku, and other streaming boxes:
TiVo finally gives an update on its promised Apple TV app - 9to5Mac

Yet they add new apps to the TiVo Stream, like HBO Max:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tivo/comments/hghdp6
While that TiVo Stream doesn't stream from their own DVRs, they expect you to subscribe to Sling. And their DVRs don't get new apps, like HBO Max.

What a mess.


----------



## JKR123

Has anyone figured out the rhyme or reason as to why these ads keep coming back after we have successfully gotten TiVo support to remove them? How can they justify continuing to push these changes out to boxes that successfully had them removed, especially when these changes cause some boxes to crash? I am frustrated that not only did I have to call TiVo support yet again today to get these ads removed, but I missed the endings of each of the recordings that I had in process when my machine rebooted. I can live with either the TE3 or TE4 layout, but I shouldn’t have to downgrade to TE3 and lose all of my recordings just to address this issue. I also shouldn’t have to make changes to my router settings (which I know nothing about doing) to try and block these ads from reaching my machines. How did we get to the place where we have to put in work-arounds to address TiVo’s issues? Why don’t they just fix the problems these ads are causing or just totally remove them? I have lost count of the number of times I have had to contact TiVo support about this as it has been an on-going issue since last September. They have to be spending a lot more time dealing with these removal requests and then removing the ads piecemeal from the same boxes over and over than the time they would have spent to fix this problem. I guess the real problem is that TiVo support has never seemed to take ownership that this is a problem that they need to address.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Fofer said:


> The more I think about it, I'm just kind of hard-pressed to think of a more "user hostile" move a company could have made. To introduce these ads, in this way, and then force informed customers to opt out, and even then, only temporarily, when they also know that these ads are crashing people's boxes?
> 
> Even if it hasn't happened to me yet, the very notion of it and TiVo's poor handling is loathsome to me, feels like blatant writing on the wall, and in principle I don't feel comfortable supporting the company anymore as a result of it. Especially when there are greener pastures for me elsewhere.
> 
> I'm also annoyed that they dropped development of the promised streaming app for AppleTV, Roku, and other streaming boxes:
> TiVo finally gives an update on its promised Apple TV app - 9to5Mac
> 
> Yet they add new apps to the TiVo Stream, like HBO Max:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Tivo/comments/hghdp6
> While that TiVo Stream doesn't stream from their own DVRs, they expect you to subscribe to Sling. And their DVRs don't get new apps, like HBO Max.
> 
> What a mess.


The TiVo cable DVRs are most likely dead men walking.


----------



## Charles R

JKR123 said:


> Has anyone figured out the rhyme or reason as to why these ads keep coming back after we have successfully gotten TiVo support to remove them?


I opted out for the heck of it (was using Pi-hole) and they have never returned... been several months.


----------



## ManeJon

Haven't returned for me - OOPS probably shouldn't have said that


----------



## Noelmel

Haven’t returned for me either and I’ve had at least 2 software updates since (Roamio Pro)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JKR123

Glad to hear this isn’t as widespread as it used to be. I guess I am just one of the unlucky ones. Right now they can’t adhere to the 72 hour resolution on this so I continue to wait for this to be fixed.


----------



## mlsnyc

mlsnyc said:


> To me it doesn't imply that TE4 is a fake fix, but that it's not a permanent fix. In my case I'm only talking about opting out, not the pi-hole/blacklisting solution.
> 
> My experience opting out involved a 30-minute phone call (hold time before getting hold of a rep, convincing the rep to opt me out vs. rep trying to convince me to press skip every time, the rep putting me on hold several times as he did whatever he did on his end to actually opt me out). After that, there was another 1-2 days of restarting the TiVo to check that the pre-roll ads went away.
> 
> That's more effort than I'd like, but I'm okay if I only have to do that once. But it's not okay with me if I have to do that more than once. Or worse, that I have to do that every time a new release rolls out, which is what some have reported.
> 
> Having said that, I'm okay sticking with TE4 for now because the pre-roll ads have not come back for me. _*knocking on wood*_


Well the @!#*& pre-roll ads are back. After several months and updates, I've gotten bit by their return. What utter BS.

I'm on chat with support now. Let's see if it's as easy now as people say.


----------



## tim_m

mlsnyc said:


> Well the @!#*& pre-roll ads are back. After several months and updates, I've gotten bit by their return. What utter BS.
> 
> I'm on chat with support now. Let's see if it's as easy now as people say.


Knock on wood so far so good here without them coming back.


----------



## mlsnyc

tim_m said:


> Knock on wood so far so good here without them coming back.


Hopefully you luck out. I looked it up and I opted out in Dec 2019. So almost 8 months before they returned for me.

Luckily my main TiVo is still on TE3, and it looks like it'll stay that way until I'm done with TiVos. I've been using them for close to 20 years and overall the UX (TE3) fits well with my viewing preferences and habits; I like the money I'm saving by not renting FiOS's expensive DVRs; and I like that my recordings are local to my TiVo box. But between this pre-roll crap and their noticeably degrading ability to provide good guide data, my TiVo days are numbered.


----------



## tim_m

mlsnyc said:


> Hopefully you luck out. I looked it up and I opted out in Dec 2019. So almost 8 months before they returned for me.
> 
> Luckily my main TiVo is still on TE3, and it looks like it'll stay that way until I'm done with TiVos. I've been using them for close to 20 years and overall prefer the UX (TE3); I like the money I'm saving by not renting FiOS's expensive DVRs; and I like that my recordings are local to my TiVo box. But between this pre-roll crap and their noticeably degrading ability to provide good guide data, my TiVo days are numbered.


I only opted out in the spring. I don't even start getting them until February i think. I demanded to be opted out because is was crashing my TiVo multiple times a week in primetime.


----------



## mlsnyc

tim_m said:


> I only opted out in the spring. I don't even start getting them until February i think. I demanded to be opted out because is was crashing my TiVo multiple times a week in primetime.


Yeah these ads are a whole new level of craptitude. Hopefully you don't get them back. There seems to be quite a few on here reporting they haven't seen them come back after they're gone. But then again, I used to be one of them.


----------



## tim_m

mlsnyc said:


> Yeah these ads are a whole new level of craptitude. Hopefully you don't get them back. There seems to be quite a few on here reporting they haven't seen them come back after they're gone. But then again, I used to be one of them.


If they went crashing my TiVo i really want that bothered by then honestly. A quick button press got passed them. The crashing was infuriating.


----------



## Fofer

Even more so infuriating is the fact that TiVo has known that these ads are crashing systems, for almost a year now, and hasn't fixed the crashes, or stopped the ads.

Bye bye, TiVo.


----------



## NYHeel

I just opted out two days ago and the ads were gone yesterday. Was pretty easy to do via support chat. Honestly if the implementation of the ads wasn’t so terrible I wouldn’t even care. It was just the awful slowness, crashing/rebooting and error messages they caused that drove me crazy. The weird thing was that the whole box become glitchy and slow. Sometimes recordings would stop after 20-30 seconds even with the ads skipped. Also, sometimes the menu screen would be all weird and translucent. It was just really bad. I can’t believe that they’re not just removing them for everyone at this point. 

I got the ads very late on my Roamio so I’ve only had them for a few months. But incredibly glad to see them gone. Hope it stays that way.


----------



## Dr_Zoidberg

I called in to opt out on my three, and I waited two weeks. Called back and the said they’d take care of it. Took three days, but they’re finally gone


----------



## slowbiscuit

For now.


----------



## cg77018

Any idea how to get rid of these ads?
They are causing my TiVo mini to show error code V112.
I know this because we can watch the mini for hours with no issue. Then we decide to watch an recording and go to the DVR to select a show. As soon as it try to show the BS forced ad that TiVo forces upon your recording, the TiVo mini shows error V112 and cant communicate with main TiVo.
TiVo - Shame on you, you need to fix this


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

cg77018 said:


> Any idea how to get rid of these ads?
> They are causing my TiVo mini to show error code V112.
> I know this because we can watch the mini for hours with no issue. Then we decide to watch an recording and go to the DVR to select a show. As soon as it try to show the BS forced ad that TiVo forces upon your recording, the TiVo mini shows error V112 and cant communicate with main TiVo.
> TiVo - Shame on you, you need to fix this


Just ask.


----------



## pfiagra

cg77018 said:


> Any idea how to get rid of these ads?
> They are causing my TiVo mini to show error code V112.
> I know this because we can watch the mini for hours with no issue. Then we decide to watch an recording and go to the DVR to select a show. As soon as it try to show the BS forced ad that TiVo forces upon your recording, the TiVo mini shows error V112 and cant communicate with main TiVo.
> TiVo - Shame on you, you need to fix this


FIX: Removing Ads Before Watching a Recorded Event


----------



## rChaz

I've been using the OpenDNS method to filter adgwy.tivo.com which blocks the pre-roll ads. The drawback has been a slight delay while the Arrow-screen ad loader seems to realize it has no network access to an ad.

Sometime in the last couple weeks, I noticed there was no longer *any* Arrow-screen or pre-roll delay. I'm wondering if TiVo changed their method of pre-roll ad delivery, or if they gave up on it. I haven't tried removing the OpenDNS filter yet, but I no longer see any blocked pre-roll ad loader delay for either my Roamio or Bolt. Nice!


----------



## rChaz

OK, I see elsewhere that the new TE4 Software v21.10.1.v8 removed the pre-roll ad load delay - the ad plays without delay. So combined with the OpenDNS filtering to remove the ad, the pre-roll ad impact is completely removed and the recording starts playing without delay.


----------



## JKR123

Anyone else seeing pre-roll ads for TiVo+? I had called back in July to get the pre-roll ads turned off (yet again). Last week I noticed the pre-roll ads showing up again, but these were ads for TiVo+ which I hadn’t noticed before, as the other ads were for things like Amazon prime and Donut Shop Keurig k-cups, etc. I called again to ask that these ads be removed. Adding ads for other companies is one thing, but isn’t putting them out there to advertise for TiVo+ going a bit too far? They are already putting them in our guide entries which we don’t have the option of turning them off in the guide. (Although they do mysteriously disappear at times only to come back at a later date.)


----------



## tenthplanet

JKR123 said:


> Anyone else seeing pre-roll ads for TiVo+? I had called back in July to get the pre-roll ads turned off (yet again). Last week I noticed the pre-roll ads showing up again, but these were ads for TiVo+ which I hadn't noticed before, as the other ads were for things like Amazon prime and Donut Shop Keurig k-cups, etc. I called again to ask that these ads be removed. Adding ads for other companies is one thing, but isn't putting them out there to advertise for TiVo+ going a bit too far? They are already putting them in our guide entries which we don't have the option of turning them off in the guide. (Although they do mysteriously disappear at times only to come back at a later date.)


I used to get them, but now I get ads for Lincoln and Lexus.  Seems they are selling the ad space.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

tenthplanet said:


> I used to get them, but now I get ads for Lincoln and Lexus.  Seems they are selling the ad space.


Oh, sure, brag about how upscale your targeted ads are!


----------



## TKnight206

JKR123 said:


> Anyone else seeing pre-roll ads for TiVo+? I had called back in July to get the pre-roll ads turned off (yet again). Last week I noticed the pre-roll ads showing up again, but these were ads for TiVo+ which I hadn't noticed before, as the other ads were for things like Amazon prime and Donut Shop Keurig k-cups, etc. I called again to ask that these ads be removed. Adding ads for other companies is one thing, but isn't putting them out there to advertise for TiVo+ going a bit too far? They are already putting them in our guide entries which we don't have the option of turning them off in the guide. (Although they do mysteriously disappear at times only to come back at a later date.)


Both the pre-roll ads and the guide ads are inappropriate. The pre-roll ads more ridiculously so. It makes absolutely no sense to add commercials before a recording plays, while at the same time offering services such as SkipMode. Imagine if a company decided to buy up a bunch of magazines, remove all the ads in it, while adding their own ads.

You'd expect with either a monthly subscription or a one-time fee, you could simply pay the extra cost that the ads bring in and be done with it.

It was bad enough that my cable company had ads at the bottom of the guide. I would have liked the option to just pay a bit more to replace the revenue they were getting for the ad placement. How much could it really cost per month after all?


----------



## Fofer

TKnight206 said:


> Both the pre-roll ads and the guide ads are inappropriate. The pre-roll ads more ridiculously so. It makes absolutely no sense to add commercials before a recording plays, while at the same time offering services such as SkipMode. Imagine if a company decided to buy up a bunch of magazines, remove all the ads in it, while adding their own ads.


It's worse than that, because these inserted pre-roll ads are *CRASHING* people's boxes. And it's been happening for a year now! That they didn't immediately remove the pre-roll ads and FIX the issue, instead only allowing people to contact support to temporarily remove them, is absurd.

This whole move is user-hostile and it shows where TiVo's priorities are. The best thing I did for my home's A/V setup this year was leave TiVo for good. I'm now using Channels DVR with my AppleTV's and it's so much better, elegant and expandable than TiVo, in every way that matters to me most. It's developed by a small, dedicated team, that puts the user experience first. My only regret is that I didn't make this move many years ago.


----------



## solutionsetc

Yup... this was the last straw with me as well and I am now an X-TiVo user (after many years). I get the ads when the services are free (ala Google), but not when I pay for them.


----------



## bobfrank

Serious question for the people who have happily left Tivo for one reason or another. Why are you reading and posting in these Tivo forums still?


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

bobfrank said:


> Serious question for the people who have happily left Tivo for one reason or another. Why are you reading and posting in these Tivo forums still?


To learn about stuff like Channels DVR? 

Also because this is still one of the best places to discuss shows.


----------



## solutionsetc

bobfrank said:


> Serious question for the people who have happily left Tivo for one reason or another. Why are you reading and posting in these Tivo forums still?


As a TiVo user for 15+ years, when I cancelled my service I wasn't even asked why... which IMHO is beyond stupid, unless they just don't give a "F" about us.

So maybe in the hopes that their marketing folks listen in here and actually take away some info about what customers are unhappy with, and to what extent, our comments might inspire change.

But on second thought, we're probably all just wasting our time and should move on. I can't recall even the most frequented and heated discussions here making any kind of difference in TiVo's behavior.

So, I'm out.

Bye.


----------



## Fofer

bobfrank said:


> Serious question for the people who have happily left Tivo for one reason or another. Why are you reading and posting in these Tivo forums still?


Serious answer, speaking for myself only: I was one of TiVo's earliest customers. I have been a member of this forum for 20 years. A huge evangelist, I was even featured in a major newspaper's article celebrating my loyalty to this DVR platform. I stuck with it, despite the ups and downs, as my setup evolved over the years. I expanded my network of TiVos, upgraded hard drives, etc.

After awhile the DVR tech discussion grew stale, but this forum became a welcome discussion spot for me for all sorts of topics under the sun, too. (Look around, there's lots more than just this one sub-forum.)

Now granted, nearly all of my involvement after the first few years, has been in the "Happy Hour - General Chit Chat" section, but with almost 93,000 posts, I am currently the #2 most prolific poster in this entire forum. It's part of my daily flow. I enjoy the myriad of discussions I'm able to have, with like-minded, intelligent, early adopter-type folks, having learned a lot, and made friends along the way, too. Sometimes we share stories, ask questions, vent, laugh, grieve, share deals, tips and tricks, whatever. It's a discussion board. That's what it's for.

And this thread popped up, because I'm auto-subscribed to threads I've participated in.

Now in return, here's a serious question for you: Why do you ask?


----------



## bobfrank

Fofer said:


> Serious answer, speaking for myself only: I was one of TiVo's earliest customers. I have been a member of this forum for 20 years. A huge evangelist, I was even featured in a major newspaper's article celebrating my loyalty to this DVR platform. I stuck with it, despite the ups and downs, as my setup evolved over the years. I expanded my network of TiVos, upgraded hard drives, etc.
> 
> After awhile the DVR tech discussion grew stale, but this forum became a welcome discussion spot for me for all sorts of topics under the sun, too. (Look around, there's lots more than just this one sub-forum.)
> 
> Now granted, nearly all of my involvement after the first few years, has been in the "Happy Hour - General Chit Chat" section, but with almost 93,000 posts, I am currently the #2 most prolific poster in this entire forum. It's part of my daily flow. I enjoy the myriad of discussions I'm able to have, with like-minded, intelligent, early adopter-type folks, having learned a lot, and made friends along the way, too. Sometimes we share stories, ask questions, vent, laugh, grieve, share deals, tips and tricks, whatever. It's a discussion board. That's what it's for.
> 
> And this thread popped up, because I'm auto-subscribed to threads I've participated in.
> 
> Now in return, here's a serious question for you: Why do you ask?


You and the other posters who have answered so far have very good answers. I probably haven't owned Tivos as long as you. I've only been a member of this forum for 15 years and don't post much. I bought my first Tivo very shortly after the Series 1 60 hour units were available. I would have bought one earlier but I knew the 14 to 30 hour capacities weren't going to be enough. My wife wondered why on earth I thought we needed the DVR when we had perfectly good VHS recorders. It wasn't long before she was recording and watching more on Tivo than I was.

I asked just because I was curious. If I quit using a given product I generally don't spend times in their forums discussing it. So, I was wondering why others did.


----------



## JoeKustra

bobfrank said:


> I asked just because I was curious. If I quit using a given product I generally don't spend times in their forums discussing it. So, I was wondering why others did.


Here's a tip. Click on the post count under a person's name. It displays the forums they visit. There's a lot more to TCF than just TiVo users.


----------



## Fofer

LOL, lots more.










I didn't do the math but these don't appear to add up to 93k as my post count on the left says. I seem to remember there being a subforum where posts didn't add to our count, maybe that explains it...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs

JoeKustra said:


> Here's a tip. Click on the post count under a person's name. It displays the forums they visit. There's a lot more to TCF than just TiVo users.


Wait, what? When I click on it, it just gives a list of posts...


----------



## Fofer

I had to click on my avatar, then "Profile Page," then "Areas."


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

bobfrank said:


> You and the other posters who have answered so far have very good answers. I probably haven't owned Tivos as long as you. I've only been a member of this forum for 15 years and don't post much. I bought my first Tivo very shortly after the Series 1 60 hour units were available. I would have bought one earlier but I knew the 14 to 30 hour capacities weren't going to be enough. My wife wondered why on earth I thought we needed the DVR when we had perfectly good VHS recorders. It wasn't long before she was recording and watching more on Tivo than I was.
> 
> I asked just because I was curious. If I quit using a given product I generally don't spend times in their forums discussing it. So, I was wondering why others did.


Love the VHS story. Just to be clear though, as you probably know this is not "their forum" as it is not run by TiVo, and only a few TiVo employees have ever posted here.

If TiVo were to go out of business tomorrow, I imagine this site would continue for a very long time as a general forum for DVRs, streaming boxes, content, and also the many odd topics to which we strangely segue.

The name would probably change though. I vote for "TCF".


----------



## bobfrank

JoeKustra said:


> Here's a tip. Click on the post count under a person's name. It displays the forums they visit. There's a lot more to TCF than just TiVo users.


My comment was really directed at former Tivo users who were posting in Tivo forums and Tivo threads. After seeing the replies I understand better why.


----------



## bobfrank

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Love the VHS story. Just to be clear though, as you probably know this is not "their forum" as it is not run by TiVo, and only a few TiVo employees have ever posted here.
> 
> If TiVo were to go out of business tomorrow, I imagine this site would continue for a very long time as a general forum for DVRs, streaming boxes, content, and also the many odd topics to which we strangely segue.
> 
> The name would probably change though. I vote for "TCF".


Glad you liked the story, it's all true. Tivo isn't the first, or last, piece of tech I've gotten than my wife questioned and now wouldn't do without.

Yes, I do know that this is a Tivo Community Forum, and not run by, or frequented by, Tivo. I was wondering about former Tivo users posting in Tivo forums and threads. Now I understand.


----------



## JoeKustra

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Wait, what? When I click on it, it just gives a list of posts...


True, but the forum is in the fine print. Usually the thread title is more interesting anyhow.


----------



## TKnight206

Fofer said:


> It's worse than that, because these inserted pre-roll ads are *CRASHING* people's boxes. And it's been happening for a year now! That they didn't immediately remove the pre-roll ads and FIX the issue, instead only allowing people to contact support to temporarily remove them, is absurd.
> 
> This whole move is user-hostile and it shows where TiVo's priorities are. The best thing I did for my home's A/V setup this year was leave TiVo for good. I'm now using Channels DVR with my AppleTV's and it's so much better, elegant and expandable than TiVo, in every way that matters to me most. It's developed by a small, dedicated team, that puts the user experience first. My only regret is that I didn't make this move many years ago.


I miss TiVo Inc. I had TiVo for about a year when Rovi bought them and became TiVo Corporation. Their phone service was excellent. The guide data was acceptable. I miss them.


----------



## JoeKustra

TKnight206 said:


> I miss TiVo Inc. I had TiVo for about a year when Rovi bought them and became TiVo Corporation. Their phone service was excellent. The guide data was acceptable. I miss them.


Now they are part of Xperi. It hasn't helped.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

I updated to TE4 a couple of weeks ago and no ads before shows or TiVo Plus in the guide—does it take a while before this happens?


----------



## JoeKustra

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I updated to TE4 a couple of weeks ago and no ads before shows or TiVo Plus in the guide-does it take a while before this happens?


No, but they come and go. Recently there have been non-TiVo+ ads being place both in the guide and on the suggestion bar. I noticed that the gold star ads that at the bottom of TiVo Central with TE3 are the same as the ads on TE4. Both are missing at times. At least their marketing people keep busy.


----------



## mlsnyc

There's so many "TiVo is dying" threads I didn't know where to post this. One of those listicle thingies that are popular these days. It comes out and says TiVo is already dead and has been so for a while...

Top 10 Successful Inventions That Just Up And Died - Listverse


----------



## Fofer

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I updated to TE4 a couple of weeks ago and no ads before shows or TiVo Plus in the guide-does it take a while before this happens?


I didn't see pre-roll ads either, but the information about their deployment was a tremendous turnoff. It was the dread of waiting for "the inevitable" that irked me the most.

I did see the useless TiVo+ ads littering the guide. To add insult to injury, any attempt to launch the TiVo+ app on my TiVo Minis, just to see what the hoopla was about, would crash the TiVo Minis. This was never fixed. I did check out TiVo+ on my Roamio Plus only to discover it was a steaming pile of disinterest.

These are not feelings anyone should be paying good money for.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

JoeKustra said:


> No, but they come and go. Recently there have been non-TiVo+ ads being place both in the guide and on the suggestion bar. I noticed that the gold star ads that at the bottom of TiVo Central with TE3 are the same as the ads on TE4. Both are missing at times. At least their marketing people keep busy.


I see the gold star ads at the down arrow list of shows or whatever that is called now and can live with it since I pretty much don't use that list. But I will say that list does now have most of the shows I watch and I only ever see the occasional one that doesn't fit in.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Fofer said:


> I didn't see pre-roll ads either, but the information about their deployment was a tremendous turnoff. It was the dread of waiting for "the inevitable" that irked me the most.
> 
> I did see the useless TiVo+ ads littering the guide. To add insult to injury, any attempt to launch the TiVo+ app on my TiVo Minis, just to see what the hoopla was about, would crash the TiVo Minis. This was never fixed. I did check out TiVo+ on my Roamio Plus only to discover it was a steaming pile of disinterest.
> 
> These are not feelings anyone should be paying good money for.


Yeah TiVo Plus doesn't seem to have any content I would be interested in. I avoid the guide for the most part and use the up arrow to schedule recordings when I need them.


----------



## Tony_T

The Guide Ads are really annoying. 
Dying Networks advertising on a dying platform.


----------



## mattyro7878

Watched "The Comey Rule" on my Bolt . No hint of pre roll ads. Could that be because it was a Showtime show? Do they do pre rolls on premium channels? I dont usually subscribe so I dont know.


----------



## TKnight206

JoeKustra said:


> Now they are part of Xperi. It hasn't helped.


If you want to wreak havoc on your To Do List, add a show like Teen Titans Go! and watch it treat permutations of reruns as NEW. Then watch them switch up the deliminator symbol from semi-colon to slash to double space, creating even more of a mess.

It feels like they don't care about guide quality. I've already deleted a OnePass for a certain show (that has since ended years back) because I started getting tired of unsetting unlabeled reruns in the To Do List.

I like keeping old shows set to NEW in case they're ever revived. Although, that assumes the OnePass will work for the revival.


----------



## hapster85

Tony_T said:


> The Guide Ads are really annoying.
> Dying Networks advertising on a dying platform.


Those ads don't really bother me. Had to chuckle at the irony of a recent one promoting a TBS program, on my Roamio OTA, though.

I continue to block the pre-roll ads at the router, however that no longer seems to cause a lag in playback starting, or failing altogether.


----------



## Tony_T

You’re blocking the pre-roll ads? 
Did TiVo stop honoring requests to op-out of preroll ads?


----------



## hapster85

Tony_T said:


> You're blocking the pre-roll ads?
> Did TiVo stop honoring requests to op-out of preroll ads?


Yes, I block them. Never tried calling TiVo about opting out.


----------



## ManeJon

TIVO just honored my request to opt out - I had to replace my BOLT and they re-appeared. Messaged with agent and they were removed. On my service record on TIVO.COM the request is listed


----------



## TKnight206

ManeJon said:


> TIVO just honored my request to opt out - I had to replace my BOLT and they re-appeared. Messaged with agent and they were removed. On my service record on TIVO.COM the request is listed


It's ridiculous that you have to call to opt out. It wastes customer reps time having to deal with this, but maybe if more people did this, they'd get the hint to get rid of them.

It's even more ridiculous they do this in the first place. There is no logic in adding pre-rolls before RECORDINGS! The service has been paid for either by monthly, annual, or lifetime subscriptions. It'd be like going to a streaming service, paying for the ad-free experience, and still getting ads, sort of. (There is better example I could use, but I'm worried someone would try patenting it, if it isn't done already.)


----------



## Tony_T

Yeah, my “chat” to opt-out of the pre-roll ads took almost 2 minutes 
(Maybe even less time than it took for my response here)

Too bad TiVo doesn’t do opt-outs for the Guide Ads.


----------



## TKnight206

Tony_T said:


> Yeah, my "chat" to opt-out of the pre-roll ads took almost 2 minutes
> (Maybe even less time than it took for my response here)
> 
> Too bad TiVo doesn't do opt-outs for the Guide Ads.


Thankfully, those of us on TE3, like myself, don't have to worry about this. Just glad they're not doing ads in the Pause Screen, Delete Screen, or in the Episode Folders anymore on TE3. Hopefully, they won't come back.

Now, if only they'd get it through their heads that they could offer an option in addition to current plans, where we could pay a little extra per month, per year, or just a one-time fee, and be done with any and all sponsored content.


----------



## Fofer

TKnight206 said:


> Now, if only they'd get it through their heads that they could offer an option in addition to current plans, where we could pay a little extra per month, per year, or just a one-time fee, and be done with any and all sponsored content.


That's what the lifetime fee should have been for. Come to think of it, that's what the subscription fee should have been for, too.

This is a company that's lost its way.


----------



## shwru980r

TKnight206 said:


> It's ridiculous that you have to call to opt out. It wastes customer reps time having to deal with this, but maybe if more people did this, they'd get the hint to get rid of them.
> 
> It's even more ridiculous they do this in the first place. There is no logic in adding pre-rolls before RECORDINGS! The service has been paid for either by monthly, annual, or lifetime subscriptions. It'd be like going to a streaming service, paying for the ad-free experience, and still getting ads, sort of. (There is better example I could use, but I'm worried someone would try patenting it, if it isn't done already.)


It's like there are competing factions at TIVO who are at loggerheads with each other.


----------



## Fofer

shwru980r said:


> It's like there are competing factions at TIVO who are at loggerheads with each other.


Yeah, and I'll bet the customer service reps can't be happy fielding calls from all the customers whose TiVo boxes are crashing from these pre-roll ads. For over a year.


----------



## mrfixit454

Well this is annoying. My new bolt has been sitting idle for a few months, never really used it much and I just started transferring shows to it from my Roamio and Premiere and noticed today Political ads of all things before checking if shows transferred OK. Guess I need to do the opt out thing. Getting ready to upgrade the drive on the Roamio. Thanks to everyone for flushing this out.


----------



## jff6791

hapster85 said:


> Those ads don't really bother me. Had to chuckle at the irony of a recent one promoting a TBS program, on my Roamio OTA, though.
> 
> I continue to block the pre-roll ads at the router, however that no longer seems to cause a lag in playback starting, or failing altogether.


So which domain(s) need to be blocked at router to remove pre-roll and guide ads? Is it just one or multiple?


----------



## Schmye Bubbula

Is my old OTA Roamio supposed to get these adverts? Haven't been here in a while, and haven't read this thread, but what brought me here is that I just now got an email notification about *jff6791*'s immediately preceding post, and noticed the "TiVo inserting short advert," but I've never seen an ad. If Roamios are indeed afflicted, then it must be because of my AdGuard DNS IP addresses I put in my router. That would be an answer to the above question about what to block, too. (I noticed that it now causes this board to put up a nag screen every page load to please turn-off my ad blocker.)

AdGuard DNS - block ads, tracking, and phishing
94.140.14.14
94.140.15.15


----------



## hapster85

jff6791 said:


> So which domain(s) need to be blocked at router to remove pre-roll and guide ads? Is it just one or multiple?


prod.adgwy.tivo.com is what I have blocked. My Linksys router does this on a per device basis, so I added for both my Roamio and the Mini.

ETA: That blocks the pre-roll ads. I forget the address to block the guide ads. I stopped blocking those as it also blocks channel icons, and I like having those.


----------



## Tony_T

jff6791 said:


> So which domain(s) need to be blocked at router to remove pre-roll and guide ads? Is it just one or multiple?


Why block? Just call/chat TiVo and opt-out of the pre-roll ads


----------



## jff6791

Tony_T said:


> Why block? Just call/chat TiVo and opt-out of the pre-roll ads


Because some have reported the requests don't always stick for whatever reason and need to be repeated. The domain block should be one and done - unless they move it of course.


----------



## pfiagra

jff6791 said:


> Because some have reported the requests don't always stick for whatever reason and need to be repeated.


That seems to be only early on when the ads first were rolled out. Since that initial time, I've not seen any messages posted where the ads have returned when someone has opted out.

My own experience is that I've not had any ads since opting out back in March and all it took was a two minute chat session with a TiVo rep.


----------



## hapster85

pfiagra said:


> My own experience is that I've not had any ads since opting out back in March and all it took was a two minute chat session with a TiVo rep.


Didn't take any longer to add the block to my router. Hadn't thought about it in months until someone requested the address. [/shrug]


----------



## Tony_T

jff6791 said:


> Because some have reported the requests don't always stick for whatever reason and need to be repeated. The domain block should be one and done - *unless they move it of course*.


Better to opt-out then.


----------



## aaronwt

pfiagra said:


> That seems to be only early on when the ads first were rolled out. Since that initial time, I've not seen any messages posted where the ads have returned when someone has opted out.
> 
> My own experience is that I've not had any ads since opting out back in March and all it took was a two minute chat session with a TiVo rep.


I only just realized I have not see any ads in a long time. I remember having to contact them in the past, multiple times, to remove the ads. But I can't even remember the last time I contacted TiVo. Just like I can't remember the last time I saw a pre roll ad.

Sent from my Tab A 10.1


----------



## gerigman

aaronwt said:


> I only just realized I have not see any ads in a long time. I remember having to contact them in the past, multiple times, to remove the ads. But I can't even remember the last time I contacted TiVo. Just like I can't remember the last time I saw a pre roll ad.
> 
> Sent from my Tab A 10.1


My pre roll ads did come back recently after an update. I had to call Tivo on November 21 to get them to remove the pre roll ads again.


----------



## TKnight206

jff6791 said:


> Because some have reported the requests don't always stick for whatever reason and need to be repeated. The domain block should be one and done - unless they move it of course.


If everyone who is annoyed by these ads calls up and requests to be removed every single time they reappear, hopefully they'd get it through their heads that this was a very bad idea.


----------



## Tony_T

TKnight206 said:


> If everyone who is annoyed by these ads calls up and requests to be removed every single time they reappear, hopefully they'd get it through their heads that this was a very bad idea.


Appeared once a long time ago, 2 minute chat to opt-out, haven't appeared since.

&#8230;now if there were only a way to get rid of the Guide Ads (w/o also losing the channel icons)


----------



## mlsnyc

Tony_T said:


> Appeared once a long time ago, 2 minute chat to opt-out, haven't appeared since.


I keep seeing this. And yes, it's as easy as getting a support chat going and making the opt-out request to get it to stop.

However, just to make sure people's expectations are properly set, I should point out that after the request is made, it's another 2-3 business days before the ads actually go away. And in the 3 times I've had to do this (twice for my Bolt, once for my Roamio), it did take the full 3 business days for the ads to stop showing. In one of those cases, I made the request on a Thursday night, and I kept seeing the ads until Tuesday evening. Maybe others have seen it take effect more immediately, but I have not.


----------



## TKnight206

Tony_T said:


> Appeared once a long time ago, 2 minute chat to opt-out, haven't appeared since.
> 
> &#8230;now if there were only a way to get rid of the Guide Ads (w/o also losing the channel icons)


Don't stand for the guide ads. It wasn't there when you started paying for your subscription. Complain over the phone. Let them know you aren't okay with this.


----------



## tim_m

*knock on wood* Mine have never come back since i emailed them when i first got them very early this year.


----------



## njweb

hapster85 said:


> prod.adgwy.tivo.com is what I have blocked. My Linksys router does this on a per device basis, so I added for both my Roamio and the Mini.
> 
> ETA: That blocks the pre-roll ads. I forget the address to block the guide ads. I stopped blocking those as it also blocks channel icons, and I like having those.


Thanks!
So, just to confirm, if I upgrade my Roamio to TE4 and just block the above URL / domain at the router level (I have a Netgear Orbi - see attached photo of the setting I am changing to try to block ads), this will prevent 'pre-roll ads'?


----------



## Chuck_IV

Tony_T said:


> Appeared once a long time ago, 2 minute chat to opt-out, haven't appeared since.
> 
> &#8230;now if there were only a way to get rid of the Guide Ads (w/o also losing the channel icons)


Since I rolled back my TiVo's, I haven't paid attention to this, but wasn't there a way to block a site(mm1.TiVo.com or something like that) when rebooting the TiVo, which would block both the ads and icons, but as soon as you unblocked it, the icons would come back but not the ads?

Did they get wise to this?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

