# TiVo Edge (Series 7 DVR for Cable)



## NashGuy

Well, I may on the verge of eating my words that the Series 6 Bolt would be the last-ever iteration of the TiVo DVR to support CableCARD. Looks like TiVo and Arris are cookin' up something new.

Tivo Preps Series 7 'Tivo Edge' DVR Made by Arris


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## JoeKustra

Three MAC addresses could mean built-in MoCA? Or a bad label. Also, 30W is pretty juicy.


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## krkaufman

I can’t imagine they’d drop MoCA from a model designed for cable use. (But then I didn’t see the sense in their dropping it from the OTA-only model, either.)


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## CloudAtlas

JoeKustra said:


> Three MAC addresses could mean built-in MoCA? Or a bad label.


WiFi, Ethernet, and MOCA. Or WiFi, Ethernet and Bluetooth.

It's the Arris MG3 Cable Media Gateway with Cable Card. Now will there be a matching Mini Qi4?


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## humbb

Parallelepiped shaped, and peach colored?


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## ajwees41

could be using downloadable security, not cable card


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## krkaufman

humbb said:


> Parallelepiped shaped, and peach colored?


Shape sounds OK; color not so much.


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## krkaufman

ajwees41 said:


> could be using downloadable security, not cable card


Perhaps in addition to...


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## JoeKustra

Correction. It's 12V at 30W, so no big deal. I don't think they would show a CableCARD trademark if it wasn't used.


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## krkaufman

JoeKustra said:


> Also, 30W is pretty juicy.


2.5A would be less than the BOLT's 3A.



Harold Thomson said:


> The power adapter for the Bolt OTA is larger and the output is 12.0V and 3.0A.


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## lucidrenegade

Hopefully they'll switch back to 3.5" drives.


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## KevTech

Hopefully not too long before they have the photos: FCC ID ACQ-MG3R Set Top Box by ARRIS


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## jfalkingham

A newer version of this?

MG2 Cable Media Gateway | ARRIS

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Diana Collins

lucidrenegade said:


> Hopefully they'll switch back to 3.5" drives.


Unfortunately, the Arris MG3 uses 2.5" drives.


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## Diana Collins

jfalkingham said:


> A newer version of this?
> 
> MG2 Cable Media Gateway | ARRIS
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


Yup, that's the Bolt version.


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## krkaufman

Roamio ... built-in transcoding for mobile streaming (roaming)
BOLT ... upgraded hardware for 4K and better overall performance

EDGE ... ??? ... (standing at the edge of CableCARD support, peering into the abyss?)

p.s. As a bland interpretation, the “-R” in MG3-R likely just means “Retail.”


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## jfalkingham

I just bought another bolt vox on sale for $250, might be returning that

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## NashGuy

What's our speculation in terms of how the TiVo Edge would differ from the TiVo Bolt? Other than having a chipset that's a bit faster (and better at transcoding), I can't really think of anything else it might have. Dolby Vision? I kinda doubt it. An updated Vox remote with no thumbs? Seems likely but hardly anything to get excited about.

The only thing I can think of that would make a significant difference is if this box runs TiVo's customized ("Operator Tier") version of Google's Android TV, the way that the STBs in the TiVo Next-Gen IPTV Platform do. Having that platform would allow for much more robust app support. But a key question is whether (or how easily) CableCARD can be supported within Android TV. I'm not aware of any devices that run both (although some may exist).


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## CloudAtlas

Diana Collins said:


> Unfortunately, the Arris MG3 uses 2.5" drives.


Where did see the HDD specs on the Arris MG3?


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## CloudAtlas

NashGuy said:


> What's our speculation in terms of how the TiVo Edge would differ from the TiVo Bolt? Other than having a chipset that's a bit faster (and better at transcoding), I can't really think of anything else it might have. Dolby Vision? I kinda doubt it. An updated Vox remote with no thumbs? Seems likely but hardly anything to get excited about.


*DOCSIS 3.1 and **WiFi 5?*


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## TostitoBandito

CloudAtlas said:


> *DOCSIS 3.1 and **WiFi 5*


Why? It's not like you need any of that bandwidth on your Tivo. 4K streams are only 15-16Mb/sec, and you can easily have 100+Mb/sec over wifi existing standards.

As was stated above, I think the only things that make sense for this would be a new Android-based OS so they can actually provide app support, and possibly support for future IP-based non-cablecard authentication methods. If it can't do at least both those things, I honestly don't see the point at all.


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## CloudAtlas

TostitoBandito said:


> Why? It's not like you need any of that bandwidth on your Tivo. 4K streams are only 15-16Mb/sec, and you can easily have 100+Mb/sec over wifi existing standards.


Bufferbloat? How DOCSIS 3.1 Reduces Latency with Active Queue Management
Remember this is aimed at Cable operators.



> As was stated above, I think the only things that make sense for this would be a new Android-based OS so they can actually provide app support, and possibly support for future IP-based non-cablecard authentication methods. If it can't do at least both those things, I honestly don't see the point at all.


Nothing special about Android OS that it won't run on a Bolt. It's just a Linux variant. Broadcom SoC is ARM Cortex based.


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## Joe3

CloudAtlas said:


> Bufferbloat? How DOCSIS 3.1 Reduces Latency with Active Queue Management
> Remember this is aimed at Cable operators.


Really, this is aimed at Cable operators!!?


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## BigJimOutlaw

NashGuy said:


> The only thing I can think of that would make a significant difference is if this box runs TiVo's customized ("Operator Tier") version of Google's Android TV, the way that the STBs in the TiVo Next-Gen IPTV Platform do. Having that platform would allow for much more robust app support. But a key question is whether (or how easily) CableCARD can be supported within Android TV. I'm not aware of any devices that run both (although some may exist).


I was wondering about this too. So many things, like Android cablecard APIs, don't exist. There would be a lot of porting and fresh code work. It would be great, though. Sucks if cablecard DVRs are stuck on linux.

But if there is Android software, it probably could be back-ported to Bolts at some point too.

As for the hardware, this one could maybe use one of the beefier Broadcom SOCs with 4 transcode streams and enough RAM to handle better quality streaming for the OTT apps (limited to 720p/30).... but other than that I'm guessing the interesting stuff will be in software.

And hopefully the back button on the remote is larger since they can 86 the Thumbs now.


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## jaselzer

Interesting to say the least. Perhaps significantly more app support? A roku and tivo like experience wrapped in one box? That would be good. If so, I suppose it would use Android TV streaming? I do not know much about these things, but I like the idea.


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## BigJimOutlaw

CloudAtlas said:


> Where did see the HDD specs on the Arris MG3?


In one of the FCC forms the HDD is indicated: Seagate ST2000VT000.

2TB, 2.5", AV-rated, SMR tech.

This lines up with something Ted said before about 3TB Bolt drives not being made anymore, and 2.5" SMR drives being limited to 2 TB. So we may be capped at 2 TB this time around.


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## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> So we may be capped at 2 TB this time around.


Insane.


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## NashGuy

TostitoBandito said:


> Why? It's not like you need any of that bandwidth on your Tivo. 4K streams are only 15-16Mb/sec, and you can easily have 100+Mb/sec over wifi existing standards.
> 
> As was stated above, I think the only things that make sense for this would be a new Android-based OS so they can actually provide app support, and possibly support for future IP-based non-cablecard authentication methods. If it can't do at least both those things, I honestly don't see the point at all.


Well, I'm not aware of any cable operator that would really contemplate cooperating with TiVo on a software-based (i.e. non-CableCARD) authentication method for retail TiVo devices. If they want a post-CableCARD TiVo solution, they'll just partner with TiVo and license their systemwide IPTV solutions for their own STBs.

But I agree with you on the point about using an Android-based OS with immediate access to an existing app store. The only two options there would be Fire TV with access to the Amazon App Store and Google Android TV with access to the Google Play Store. Amazon has indicated that they want to get into the business of licensing their Fire TV OS out to pay TV operators but Google Android TV is way ahead of them on that front and TiVo has already adopted it for their Next-Gen IPTV Platform. So if the forthcoming TiVo Edge were to use either, place your bets on Google Android TV.

But if I had to place a bet on the most likely outcome, I'd say that the TiVo Edge (which will simply be a retail knock-off of whatever TiVo/Arris are developing for cable operator partners who are sticking with QAM+CableCARD) will simply be a slightly more capable version of the Series 6 hardware (Bolt on the retail side, MG2 on the operator side). It would be great if I'm proved wrong and it offered some kind of breakthrough software-wise but I'm doubtful.


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## TonyD79

NashGuy said:


> Well, I'm not aware of any cable operator that would really contemplate cooperating with TiVo on a software-based (i.e. non-CableCARD) authentication method for retail TiVo devices. If they want a post-CableCARD TiVo solution, they'll just partner with TiVo and license their systemwide IPTV solutions for their own STBs.


Aren't all the Roku or Apple TV apps that provide programming software-based authentication? Cable companies have already gone down that path. Or are you saying they wouldn't trust TiVo with that scenario?


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## OrangeCrush

CloudAtlas said:


> Nothing special about Android OS that it won't run on a Bolt. It's just a Linux variant. Broadcom SoC is ARM Cortex based.


I believe the Bolt's SoC is MIPS not ARM. Android isn't really supported on MIPS anymore.


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## BigJimOutlaw

OrangeCrush said:


> I believe the Bolt's SoC is MIPS not ARM. Android isn't really supported on MIPS anymore.


Bolt BCM7449 is ARM. Not sure what is in the Mini Vox but most likely the same family.


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## eman926

So I'm assuming this won't work with an over-the-air antenna?


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## mattack

BigJimOutlaw said:


> So we may be capped at 2 TB this time around.


Yuck. I know, having a huge drive means you lose tons when it eventually dies.. but still...

(Though really, even a non-frame-accurate delete from beginning to pause point or delete from pause point to end would be HUUUGE benefits and get me to skim through more of the old talk shows and stuff and 'clear off' tons of stuff without actually "having" (heh) to watch/download the actual guts I care about 'now'.)


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## krkaufman

eman926 said:


> So I'm assuming this won't work with an over-the-air antenna?


Safe assumption given the "for cable" qualifier, similar to the 6 tuner BOLTs.




  




​


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## snerd

NashGuy said:


> Dolby Vision? I kinda doubt it.


Well, Dolby Vision is specifically mentioned on the label...


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## NashGuy

TonyD79 said:


> Aren't all the Roku or Apple TV apps that provide programming software-based authentication? Cable companies have already gone down that path. Or are you saying they wouldn't trust TiVo with that scenario?


Yes, software-based authentication is used for cable operators' (and cable networks') own apps, with their own UIs, on popular retail devices such as Roku and Apple TV.

But what I'm saying is that I don't foresee any cable operator opting to allow for their own raw live linear channel (or on-demand) streams to flow into TiVo's UI using anything other than the already-mandated CableCARD standard. It's not so much about not _trusting_ TiVo, it's about cable operators not wanting to turn over control of the UI to TiVo (and its local recording capabilities), plus not wanting to expend the cost/effort that would be required to develop their own (non-industry-wide-standard) software-based version of CableCARD that they could use with TiVo.


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## NashGuy

snerd said:


> Well, Dolby Vision is specifically mentioned on the label...


Ha! Right you are! (I guess I didn't pore over that label too closely.) Well, I think we've found at least one significant feature upgrade of the TiVo Edge vs. the TiVo Bolt. Netflix and VUDU both support Dolby Vision. Don't think any other apps currently on the TiVo platform do. But that'll be a nice bonus for some folks.


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## CybrFyre

Picture in picture? Please?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Joe3

I am thinking that the new hardware specs are going to be too weak for them to succeed. They need to make a big break out product to attract customers and theses specs don't look like it can carry a new innovative break out product. But instead, it looks like with these specs they are starting to create the same damn rabbit hole to fall down in again. But this time, there will no next time. If they go down this road with weak specs to start, they would have missed their last chance to build an innovative product that people will want to buy. Moreover, their existing customers will not upgrade to a weak featured product. You only can get away with putting lipstick on a pig once and they have already gone there. Also, if they don't produce the full featured boat that their existing customers have been waiting for, with the short time they have left, the other products in this market would have gain time to innovate around them and will fly past them and more than likely taking the TiVo customers with them.

The time has come for TiVo to put everything in or bust.


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## CloudAtlas

Joe3 said:


> I am thinking that the new hardware specs are going to be too weak for them to succeed. They need to make a big break out product to attract customers and theses specs don't look like it can carry a new innovative break out product. But instead, it looks like with these specs they are starting to create the same damn rabbit hole to fall down in again. But this time, there will no next time. If they go down this road with weak specs to start, they would have missed their last chance to build an innovative product that people will want to buy. Moreover, their existing customers will not upgrade to a weak featured product. You only can get away with putting lipstick on a pig once and they have already gone there. Also, if they don't produce the full featured boat that their existing customers have been waiting for, with the short time they have left, the other products in this market would have gain time to innovate around them and will fly past them and more than likely taking the TiVo customers with them.
> 
> The time has come for TiVo to put everything in or bust.


Other than the HDD what parts of the hardware specs are too weak? I think we all agree a 3TB HDD would have been better but 2.5" AV HDD's can't be stuck at 2TB forever, right? Maybe they'll support external HDD via USB 3.x.

Hey give them credit for coming out with a new DVR that most said would never happen.

PEace


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## ej42137

I wish that I lived in that parallel universe where there are other products competing and innovating against TiVo.


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## Mikeguy

ej42137 said:


> I wish that I lived in that parallel universe where there are other products competing and innovating against TiVo.


Well, there is competition, right? E.g. Amazon's Recast. Innovation, now, that's a different thing.


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## Mikeguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> In one of the FCC forms the HDD is indicated: Seagate ST2000VT000.
> 
> 2TB, 2.5", AV-rated, SMR tech.
> 
> This lines up with something Ted said before about 3TB Bolt drives not being made anymore, and 2.5" SMR drives being limited to 2 TB. So we may be capped at 2 TB this time around.


He also noted that the 1TB Bolt boxes were outselling the 3TB Bolt boxes. A major price sensitivity for lots of people?


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## Series3Sub

krkaufman said:


> I can't imagine they'd drop MoCA from a model designed for cable use. (But then I didn't see the sense in their dropping it from the OTA-only model, either.)


Nixing MoCA was probably about reducing costs to meet a particular price point for the OTA market.


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## OrangeCrush

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Bolt BCM7449 is ARM. Not sure what is in the Mini Vox but most likely the same family.


Have you found anything definitive about that? The BCM7445 has ARM Cortex A15 cores, but the teardowns have shown a BCM7449 in the Bolts and I haven't been able to find any specs on it beyond "12,000 Dhyrstone MIPS."


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## Anotherpyr

Mikeguy said:


> He also noted that the 1TB Bolt boxes were outselling the 3TB Bolt boxes. A major price sensitivity for lots of people?


Could also be that buying a 1TB and upgrading to 3TB was cheaper than buying a 3TB


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## HerronScott

OrangeCrush said:


> Have you found anything definitive about that? The BCM7445 has ARM Cortex A15 cores, but the teardowns have shown a BCM7449 in the Bolts and I haven't been able to find any specs on it beyond "12,000 Dhyrstone MIPS."


You would expect anything in the BCM74xx family to have a similar design and I believe the BCM7448 and BCM7449 (released in 2015) are just newer versions of the BCM7445 (released in 2013) with either better specs or features (I can't find anything either though on what those would be. )

Scott


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## dave13077

Maybe finally a special promotion for those of us with a Roamio that want to upgrade. Maybe something similar to the Premier -> Bolt deal a few months back?


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## Mikeguy

Anotherpyr said:


> Could also be that buying a 1TB and upgrading to 3TB was cheaper than buying a 3TB


That's what I just did (going from a 500GB), and part of the reason (the other being, I thought that 500GB could be enough).  Although I suspect that this is an explanation for only a relatively few units.


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## DVR_Dave

Anotherpyr said:


> Could also be that buying a 1TB and upgrading to 3TB was cheaper than buying a 3TB


If you're going to upgrade, you would by a 500GB, not a 1TB.


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## krkaufman

Series3Sub said:


> Nixing MoCA was probably about reducing costs to meet a particular price point for the OTA market.


Understood, but $5 savings? (Minus the additional support hassles.)


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## krkaufman

DVR_Dave said:


> If you're going to upgrade, you would by a 500GB, not a 1TB.


Never an option for the DVRs in question, 6-tuner CableCARD-only models. Right?


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## CloudAtlas

DVR_Dave said:


> If you're going to upgrade, you would by a 500GB, not a 1TB.


The two models are not equal.

500GB Bolt - 4 tuners, Cable+Antenna $199
1TB Bolt - 6 Tuners, Cable only. $299


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## Diana Collins

CloudAtlas said:


> Where did see the HDD specs on the Arris MG3?


In several of the initial test reports they list the equipment tested, and for HDD they specify:

Brand: SEAGATE
Model: ST2000VT000
Product: Video 2.5 HDD


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## ashipkowski

OrangeCrush said:


> Have you found anything definitive about that? The BCM7445 has ARM Cortex A15 cores, but the teardowns have shown a BCM7449 in the Bolts and I haven't been able to find any specs on it beyond "12,000 Dhyrstone MIPS."


If you phrase your search query just so, you can find out that the TiVo actually uses a BCM7449S, which does turn up results unlike searching on BCM7449. Then this doc, for a Cisco box: https://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/2257808~b1b7c0b1b5b6763aee19d8389c27024c/Cisco_CAV10242.pdf partway through says "The BCM7449S SoC provides dual-core ARM B15 CPUs, [...]"


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## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Well, there is competition, right? E.g. Amazon's Recast. Innovation, now, that's a different thing.


Don't forget Tablo, and HD HomeRun available at the end of this month. OTA, but with their features, and with TiVo offering, so far, a "spiffy" name change and a possible down grade in HD, how along will it take before the competition catches them asleep and drops in a cable card to go after TiVo in a big way?

Just saying~


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## DVR_Dave

krkaufman said:


> Never an option for the DVRs in question, 6-tuner CableCARD-only models. Right?





CloudAtlas said:


> The two models are not equal.
> 
> 500GB Bolt - 4 tuners, Cable+Antenna $199
> 1TB Bolt - 6 Tuners, Cable only. $299


I forgot they now offer a 1TB 6-tuner Bolt. Originally all 6-tuner Bolt+ were 3TB, right?


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## lucidrenegade

Zatz doesn't think the Edge will be based on their new Android platform. Sucks, but not unexpected.


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## Diana Collins

Joe3 said:


> Don't forget Tablo, and HD HomeRun available at the end of this month. OTA, but with their features, and with TiVo offering, so far, a "spiffy" name change and a possible down grade in HD, how along will it take before the competition catches them asleep and drops in a cable card to go after TiVo in a big way?


There have already been cablecard based network tuners from folks like Silicon Dust and Hauppauge. SD discontinued the Prime 3 and the Prime 6 has been "Coming soon" for a couple of years. Hauppauge still offers a 2 tuner cablecard solution, but they only sell a handful. NOBODY cares about retail cablecard DVRs...folks like Plex have it right: don't worry about cablecards, just merge Live OTA TV (with DVR functionality) into an app you can already load on your Roku, FireTV or AppleTV.


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## tarheelblue32

Diana Collins said:


> SD discontinued the Prime 3 and the Prime 6 has been "Coming soon" for a couple of years.


Their website now say "Coming 2019".


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## krkaufman

Hmmm... Given that the BOLT OTA can only run TE4/Hydra, I have to wonder if the new EDGE box will be similarly limited to TE4/Hydra, with no rollback possibility.


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## OrangeCrush

lucidrenegade said:


> Zatz doesn't think the Edge will be based on their new Android platform. Sucks, but not unexpected.


It's hard for me to see what the point of this is, beyond just a fairly incremental specs refresh from the Bolt and more normal case to make it easier/cheaper to manufacture. I wonder if we'll see an Edge OTA at some point too and whether that'll be ATSC 1 or 3.


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## mattyro7878

I am happy they are offering a box with HDR10 and Dolbyvision . As stated before,this was a device that was not expected to ever exist.


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## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> Hmmm... Given that the BOLT OTA can only run TE4/Hydra, I have to wonder if the new EDGE box will be similarly limited to TE4/Hydra, with no rollback possibility.


Almost certainly. Hydra is the standard TiVo UI now. The old Encore UI has been officially deprecated. Would be very unusual for any tech company to roll out brand new products with the option to roll back to last-gen deprecated software.

Speaking of the UI that will be on the TiVo Edge, Zatz finishes his post on it thusly:

_"Also we know a substantial new interface is being evaluated, one that even more closely merges linear and OTA content&#8230; alongside new advertising initiatives."_

I assume that's a typo and he meant "OTT" (i.e. streaming), not "OTA". So his sources tell him that TiVo is apparently considering either scrapping Hydra or giving it a major update!


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## davezatz

NashGuy said:


> I assume that's a typo and he meant "OTT" (i.e. streaming), not "OTA". So his sources tell him that TiVo is apparently considering either scrapping Hydra or giving it a major update!


Thanks, fixed it.

Most of my intel on this topic is from the last few quarterly calls, although I have heard whispers of what's at work and David Shoop's public LinkedIn profile provides color as well:



> I also invented, built the strategy and currently serve as product lead for TiVo's next gen TV platform, a free, ad-supported streaming service that combines hundreds of linear TV channels and thousands of VOD titles to TiVo's core offering. (currently in stealth mode)


EDIT: Hopefully they weren't relying on the same provider that Silicon Dust was using for HDHomeRun Premium...


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## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> EDIT: Hopefully they weren't relying on the same provider that Silicon Dust was using for HDHomeRun Premium...


Or David Shoop.


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## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> Most of my intel on this topic is from the last few quarterly calls


If you do have any informants inside, insight on the software front would be valuable:


krkaufman said:


> Given that the BOLT OTA can only run TE4/Hydra, I have to wonder if the new EDGE box will be similarly limited to TE4/Hydra, with no rollback possibility.


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## stile99

krkaufman said:


> Hmmm... Given that the BOLT OTA can only run TE4/Hydra, I have to wonder if the new EDGE box will be similarly limited to TE4/Hydra, with no rollback possibility.


SHHHHH! My Bolt OTA running TE3 might hear you!


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## DVR_Dave

stile99 said:


> SHHHHH! My Bolt OTA running TE3 might hear you!


Is it a true Bolt OTA box or is it a CableCARD/Antenna box using Antenna?


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## NashGuy

davezatz said:


> Thanks, fixed it.
> 
> Most of my intel on this topic is from the last few quarterly calls, although I have heard whispers of what's at work and David Shoop's public LinkedIn profile provides color as well:
> 
> _I also invented, built the strategy and currently serve as product lead for TiVo's next gen TV platform, a free, ad-supported streaming service that combines hundreds of linear TV channels and thousands of VOD titles to TiVo's core offering. (currently in stealth mode)_​


Hmm, OK. Interesting. This to me sounds less like a UI change and more like a new Pluto TV-like app/service. I guess they're not mutually exclusive, though. The new free ad-supported linear streaming channels might simply appear alongside the CableCARD-authenticated cable channels in the TiVo Hydra UI (e.g. grid guide, etc.). And the free streaming VOD content would likewise just appear alongside whatever other VOD sources that TiVo presents. I imagine the user could go into TiVo's settings to turn off the free TiVo streaming source completely if they wanted.

Everyone is getting in on free ad-supported streaming TV these days, so it makes sense that TiVo might try too, I guess. Or maybe they're just taking someone else's service (e.g. Pluto TV, Xumo TV) and baking it into the TiVo UI? I know that LG smart TVs have done this with Xumo TV for years, integrating their free linear OTT channels alongside the TV tuner's free OTA channels via a feature LG calls "Channel Plus".


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## davezatz

Had another question on the blog - how do I know it's retail. Well... the most visible evidence is this Cable Labs self certification reports which says "Retail". Maybe you guys can take a look at the model number*s* and see if there's more to learn here. 

https://www-res.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/17210750/OC_PNP_Public_April_2019.pdf


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## krkaufman

davezatz said:


> Had another question on the blog - how do I know it's retail. Well... the most visible evidence is this Cable Labs self certification reports which says "Retail". Maybe you guys can take a look at the model number*s* and see if there's more to learn here.
> 
> https://www-res.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/17210750/OC_PNP_Public_April_2019.pdf


My assumption is retail based on the Arris model number ... MG3R, MG3-R. (The "R" meaning "Retail" ... Media Gateway 3 Retail)

edit: Oh, right, exactly as in the PDF you linked:








​


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## krkaufman

stile99 said:


> SHHHHH! My Bolt OTA running TE3 might hear you!





DVR_Dave said:


> Is it a true Bolt OTA box or is it a CableCARD/Antenna box using Antenna?


Right.

Like this?: Buy TiVo's New BOLT OTA, the Best Antenna DVR | Over the Air DVR

edit: p.s. This is the statement on which my post was based:


TiVo_Ted said:


> BOLT OTA only supports TE4, and was only manufactured and tested with TE4. There is no way to downgrade to TE3.


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## krkaufman

NashGuy said:


> Hmm, OK. Interesting. This to me sounds less like a UI change and more like a new Pluto TV-like app/service. I guess they're not mutually exclusive, though. The new free ad-supported linear streaming channels might simply appear alongside the CableCARD-authenticated cable channels in the TiVo Hydra UI (e.g. grid guide, etc.). And the free streaming VOD content would likewise just appear alongside whatever other VOD sources that TiVo presents. I imagine the user could go into TiVo's settings to turn off the free TiVo streaming source completely if they wanted.
> 
> Everyone is getting in on free ad-supported streaming TV these days, so it makes sense that TiVo might try too, I guess. Or maybe they're just taking someone else's service (e.g. Pluto TV, Xumo TV) and baking it into the TiVo UI? I know that LG smart TVs have done this with Xumo TV for years, integrating their free linear OTT channels alongside the TV tuner's free OTA channels via a feature LG calls "Channel Plus".


Again, I wouldn't take David Shoop's LinkedIn profile info too far given that David Shoop no longer works at TiVo.


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## NashGuy

krkaufman said:


> Again, I wouldn't take David Shoop's LinkedIn profile info too far given that David Shoop no longer works at TiVo.


Fair enough, although as you may know, I simply enjoy hypothetical speculation based on whatever the latest rumor happens to be.


----------



## alarson83

OrangeCrush said:


> It's hard for me to see what the point of this is, beyond just a fairly incremental specs refresh from the Bolt and more normal case to make it easier/cheaper to manufacture. I wonder if we'll see an Edge OTA at some point too and whether that'll be ATSC 1 or 3.


It may be incremental, but not necessarily everyone updates for every version. The upgrade from Roamio to Bolt wasnt that huge either. The target for this among existing users may be those on roamios and premieres that may see a more marked change.


----------



## Joe3

alarson83 said:


> It may be incremental, but not necessarily everyone updates for every version. The upgrade from Roamio to Bolt wasnt that huge either. The target for this among existing users may be those on roamios and premieres that may see a more marked change.


What market change? So far they have nothing to write about. This might be the kind of rollout you repeat only if your last rollout worked. It did not. They lost money. Only an imbecile would repeat it. TiVo needs to come up with a game changer, to attract more attention and get the general press talking, even if the game changer is more expensive to make happen, and goes over the economic sensitivity of some for awhile.


----------



## tommiet

I just cannot see me spending any money on any new TiVo products..... Spending my money in Las Vegas would be a better bet.


----------



## Mikeguy

tommiet said:


> I just cannot see me spending any money on any new TiVo products..... Spending my money in Las Vegas would be a better bet.


I'm on the fence now: what they do next will be very telling for me.


----------



## Mikeguy

NashGuy said:


> Almost certainly. Hydra is the standard TiVo UI now. The old Encore UI has been officially deprecated. Would be very unusual for any tech company to roll out brand new products with the option to roll back to last-gen deprecated software.
> 
> Speaking of the UI that will be on the TiVo Edge, Zatz finishes his post on it thusly:
> 
> _*"Also we know a substantial new interface is being evaluated, one that even more closely merges linear and OTA content&#8230; alongside *new advertising initiatives*."*_
> 
> I assume that's a typo and he meant "OTT" (i.e. streaming), not "OTA". So his sources tell him that TiVo is apparently considering either scrapping Hydra or giving it a major update!


I've long felt that TiVo has wasted much opportunity (and a certain revenue) from TiVo box advertising opportunities, which consumers might even like (as opposed to, for example, ads on the show pause bar).


----------



## thyname

So no MoCA bridging on the new Edge? That’s lame. Definitely a no go for me


----------



## krkaufman

thyname said:


> So no MoCA bridging on the new Edge? That's lame. Definitely a no go for me


Where'd ya hear/see that?


----------



## foghorn2

Should take Tubi's content and stick it in TiVOs Guide interface and give Pluto a run for the money!!


----------



## thyname

krkaufman said:


> Where'd ya hear/see that?


I think I read it somewhere. Don't remember where, and cannot find it now. Is that not the case?


----------



## krkaufman

thyname said:


> I think I read it somewhere. Don't remember where, and cannot find it now. Is that not the case?


From speculation early in this thread?


JoeKustra said:


> Three MAC addresses could mean built-in MoCA?





krkaufman said:


> I can't imagine they'd drop MoCA from a model designed for cable use. (But then I didn't see the sense in their dropping it from the OTA-only model, either.)





CloudAtlas said:


> WiFi, Ethernet, and MOCA. Or WiFi, Ethernet and Bluetooth.



They didn't include MoCA in the BOLT OTA, but I honestly don't believe that they'd pull MoCA from a "for cable" DVR.


----------



## CloudAtlas

TiVO Edge For Cable (Series 7) known specs:

2TB 2.5" HDD (SEAGATE ST2000VT000 SATA 6Gb/s, 5400 RPM)
Ethernet/MoCA Bridge, Ethernet, WiFi (3 MAC ID's as Roamio Pro/Bolt+)
CableCARD

Dolby Vision support
"It was originally widely assumed that Dolby Vision hardware needed to carry a dedicated chip. However, it is now possible to add Dolby Vision support via a firmware update to devices with sufficiently powerful processors."


----------



## stile99

DVR_Dave said:


> Is it a true Bolt OTA box or is it a CableCARD/Antenna box using Antenna?


D'OH! I keep forgetting it is a combo box being used as OTA. Basically wiped cable from my memory after installing an antenna and telling them where to go.

Still, please don't put thoughts into its head.


----------



## JLV03

JoeKustra said:


> Three MAC addresses could mean built-in MoCA? Or a bad label.


Doesn't the streaming function use a separate MAC address?


----------



## tapokata

I thought MAC address assignment was based on hardware interface: ie, you'll typically find two MAC addresses for a device that handles both wireless and wired ethernet (one MAC for each interface), for example- not for how the port is being used. My guess is the third MAC address would be needed for IP over cable, or MoCA.


----------



## foghorn2

2.5 SeaGate? You are asking for an early death!! These will be disposable boxes, much like a Garrity flashlight. Dead Sea full of TiVos.


----------



## krkaufman

CloudAtlas said:


> Ethernet/MoCA Bridge, Ethernet, WiFi (3 MAC ID's as Roamio Pro/Bolt+)


The mystery is that one of the 3 MAC addresses in the Roamio Pro/Plus is for the built-in Stream module ... which makes me wonder if TiVo isn't shifting back to a separate transcoding chip in order to bump-up the mobile streaming specs, relative to the BOLT, as the streaming box app nears.

edit:


JLV03 said:


> Doesn't the streaming function use a separate MAC address?


Yes, exactly ... at least on the Roamio Pro/Plus with the built-in Stream module.


----------



## tommiet

Mikeguy said:


> I'm on the fence now: what they do next will be very telling for me.


*HELP...... Someone has "Mikeguy's" Forum account id and password!!!!!

lol.....*


----------



## CloudAtlas

krkaufman said:


> The mystery is that one of the 3 MAC addresses in the Roamio Pro/Plus is for the built-in Stream module ... which makes me wonder if TiVo isn't shifting back to a separate transcoding chip in order to bump-up the mobile streaming specs, relative to the BOLT, as the streaming box app nears.
> 
> edit: Yes, exactly ... at least on the Roamio Pro/Plus with the built-in Stream module.


Oh, I was going by the below post. 


sfhub said:


> This is for [Bolt] May 2017 build TiVo 500GB. I don't know what MAC2 (printed on the unit) is on the Bolt, but it isn't the WiFi MAC. The WiFi MAC isn't printed on the unit at all. The paper box the unit came in only has the *Ethernet MAC listed (which matches MAC1 printed on the unit). I think I've only seen MAC2 show up on the DHCP logs once when I started playing with the MoCA bridge.*
> 
> *My Bolt basically has 3 MAC IDs*
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> MAC1 00:11:D9:xx:xx:x[Y]
> MAC2 00:11:D9:xx:xx:x[Y+1]
> WiFi 00:11:D9:zz:zz:zz
> 
> where xx and zz are completely different number sets.
> 
> The first 6 digits indicate the vendor which in this case is
> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/oui.txt
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 00-11-D9   (hex)     TiVo
> 0011D9     (base 16) TiVo
> 2160 Gold Ave
> Alviso  CA  95002-2160
> US


----------



## krkaufman

CloudAtlas said:


> Oh, I was going by the below post.


Thanks for posting that. I'd taken my BOLT through all 4 networking options and couldn't get it to list MAC2; and I found the Wi-Fi MAC to be entirely different, as your quoted post relates.


----------



## CloudAtlas

krkaufman said:


> Thanks for posting that. I'd taken my BOLT through all 4 networking options and couldn't get it to list MAC2; and I found the Wi-Fi MAC to be entirely different, as your quoted post relates.


You might be right about the streaming. My 3TB Bolt VOX lists two MAC addresses while a Roamio Plus lists three MAC addresses. Both Bolt and Roamio have MoCA, Ethernet, and WiFi!


Spoiler: Bolt and Roamio pics showing MAC addresses












Roamio Plus


----------



## TostitoBandito

If this thing gets Dolby Vision support they damn well better go back and update the Bolt's OS to support it as well. There's absolutely zero reason why this shouldn't be possible. That's one of my biggest annoyances with the Bolt at the moment, and why I hardly use it for any streaming.


----------



## Joe3

TostitoBandito said:


> If this thing gets Dolby Vision support they damn well better go back and update the Bolt's OS to support it as well. There's absolutely zero reason why this shouldn't be possible. That's one of my biggest annoyances with the Bolt at the moment, and why I hardly use it for any streaming.


This problem if it occurs and others like it, our baked into the TiVo specs, hardly noticed at the early stage of a new TiVo, is weak specs, but becomes problematic for upgrading. Either weak specs are foolishly used to keep cost down or done purposely. Instead of paying a little extra for good specs that could handle upgrades and future unforeseen buggy software fixes, you end paying more for another "new" TiVo, plus fee/lifetime.

This insane cycle with this company coming out with weak specs hardware at the start has to stop. Maybe it's this company's way of "*Hoisting them on their own petard," *the price point sensitively challenged. This cycle of weak specs in the long run's bottom line is unnecessarily frustrating to company, it's customers, and expensive to both.


----------



## tommiet

Joe3 said:


> This problem if it occurs and others like it, our baked into the TiVo specs, hardly noticed at the early stage of a new TiVo, is weak specs, but becomes problematic for upgrading. Either weak specs are foolishly used to keep cost down or done purposely. Instead of paying a little extra for good specs that could handle upgrades and future unforeseen buggy software fixes, you end paying more for another "new" TiVo, plus fee/lifetime.
> 
> This insane cycle with this company coming out with weak specs hardware at the start has to stop. Maybe it's this company's way of "*Hoisting them on their own petard," *the price point sensitively challenged. This cycle of weak specs in the long run's bottom line is unnecessarily frustrating to company, it's customers, and expensive to both.


*Can we get an AMEN for Joe3's comments!!!!!!!!*


----------



## mschnebly

Joe3 said:


> This problem if it occurs and others like it, our baked into the TiVo specs, hardly noticed at the early stage of a new TiVo, is weak specs, but becomes problematic for upgrading. Either weak specs are foolishly used to keep cost down or done purposely. Instead of paying a little extra for good specs that could handle upgrades and future unforeseen buggy software fixes, you end paying more for another "new" TiVo, plus fee/lifetime.
> 
> This insane cycle with this company coming out with weak specs hardware at the start has to stop. Maybe it's this company's way of "*Hoisting them on their own petard," *the price point sensitively challenged. This cycle of weak specs in the long run's bottom line is unnecessarily frustrating to company, it's customers, and expensive to both.


This is the same as with cell phones and other tech gear. Every couple of years they come out with a new model with better specs.


----------



## Joe3

mschnebly said:


> This is the same as with cell phones and other tech gear. Every couple of years they come out with a new model with better specs.


No, TiVo has been doing the opposite with their specs. Other tech gear gives you better core processing and a choice. They push the envelope, or dare I say it, here it comes, they push the "edge," but not the farthest point away from the center of the technology.


----------



## Dan203

JLV03 said:


> Doesn't the streaming function use a separate MAC address?


On the Roamio it did, but on the Bolt they switched to using the transcoding of the chipset itself so it didn't


----------



## alexofindy

Well, I need to do a bit more homework on this, before I can make an informed post.... But here goes. This is what I'd like to see....

My current, almost 10 year old Tivo Premiere XL may only have 2 tuners, but both can record both Cablecard encrypted QAM and OTA. Since this product was available, Tivo has not, AFAIK, offered a device that does both Cable AND OTA concurrently. For me, that's a deal breaker in terms of updating. I've had to replace the hard drive on my aging hardware, but the box still runs.

Hopefully, a new Tivo product will have genuine expandable capacity, unlike my box which, AFAIK can only expand to a no-longer-made WD drive

It would be great if Tivo would provide a path to affordably migrate my PLS to a new device. Face it, the cost of the Tivo service, which provides the EPG but no content, is way above market. SiliconDust charges for their DVR guide - but it's only $35/year.

A stackable device would be a big improvement over the Bolt's idiotic (a judgement) form factor.

And, dream of dreams, a device that will receive and record IPTV subscription channels, or whatever replaces QAM.

I don't mind (much) paying for cable channels; streaming, for me at least, is not quite there yet. If Silicondust ever releases the Prime 6, that's what will replace my Tivo, unless Tivo has something new as described above.


----------



## DVR_Dave

alexofindy said:


> It would be great if Tivo would provide a path to affordably migrate my PLS to a new device. Face it, the cost of the Tivo service, which provides the EPG but no content, is way above market. SiliconDust charges for their DVR guide - but it's only $35/year.


TiVo has offered $99 PLS transfer (to a new box) on several occasions.


----------



## celtic pride

I hope they offer the tivo edge with $99.00 lifetime for my tivo premire


----------



## TostitoBandito

Joe3 said:


> This problem if it occurs and others like it, our baked into the TiVo specs, hardly noticed at the early stage of a new TiVo, is weak specs, but becomes problematic for upgrading. Either weak specs are foolishly used to keep cost down or done purposely. Instead of paying a little extra for good specs that could handle upgrades and future unforeseen buggy software fixes, you end paying more for another "new" TiVo, plus fee/lifetime.
> 
> This insane cycle with this company coming out with weak specs hardware at the start has to stop. Maybe it's this company's way of "*Hoisting them on their own petard," *the price point sensitively challenged. This cycle of weak specs in the long run's bottom line is unnecessarily frustrating to company, it's customers, and expensive to both.


In the case of Dolby Vision at least it has nothing at all to do with the hardware for an HDR-capable device like the Bolt. It's a matter of software support and whatever certification process they need to pay for. Dolby Vision is more or less just a modified version of the HDR10 spec which adds dynamic metadata supported by some additional proprietary code. The hardware in the Bolt is more than adequate.

That said, yes in general terms I agree with your points. Tivo has never been one to be on the cutting edge of hardware/specs, and furthermore has been atrocious at keeping pace with their competitors in things they can update like apps and OS features. I still don't understand who in their right mind would buy a new Tivo device right now with IPTV on the horizon and no signs that Tivo can be remotely competitive with Amazon/Google/Apple/Roku as a streaming device. Tivo needs to get out of the hardware business entirely like I thought they were planning on doing. Their only viable future aside from a small and shrinking niche market of people who might buy their DVR's, is to try and license their OS to cable companies or other big players in the streaming market. Nothing else really makes sense since all the cable companies will soon give you an IP-based set top box and a cloud DVR with full 4K/HDR/DV support.


----------



## Furmaniac

NashGuy said:


> What's our speculation in terms of how the TiVo Edge would differ from the TiVo Bolt? Other than having a chipset that's a bit faster (and better at transcoding), I can't really think of anything else it might have. Dolby Vision? I kinda doubt it. An updated Vox remote with no thumbs? Seems likely but hardly anything to get excited about.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that would make a significant difference is if this box runs TiVo's customized ("Operator Tier") version of Google's Android TV, the way that the STBs in the TiVo Next-Gen IPTV Platform do. Having that platform would allow for much more robust app support. But a key question is whether (or how easily) CableCARD can be supported within Android TV. I'm not aware of any devices that run both (although some may exist).


Thumbs are still used for WishLists.


----------



## krkaufman

Furmaniac said:


> Thumbs are still used for WishLists.


How so?

edit: Nevermind. Keyword prioritization.


















​


----------



## Lurker1

Furmaniac said:


> Thumbs are still used for WishLists.


Then WishLists will be the next to go. Too much text, not enough pretty tiles.


----------



## Joe3

TostitoBandito said:


> ... Tivo has never been one to be on the cutting edge of hardware/specs, and furthermore has been atrocious at keeping pace with their competitors in things they can update like apps and OS features. I still don't understand who in their right mind would buy a new Tivo device right now with IPTV on the horizon and no signs that Tivo can be remotely competitive with Amazon/Google/Apple/Roku as a streaming device. Tivo needs to get out of the hardware business entirely like I thought they were planning on doing. Their only viable future aside from a small and shrinking niche market of people who might buy their DVR's, is to try and license their OS to cable companies or other big players in the streaming market. Nothing else really makes sense since all the cable companies will soon give you an IP-based set top box and a cloud DVR with full 4K/HDR/DV support.


This is* TiVo's 20th anniversary *and I think they're passing out lollipops or something to the first 200 TiVo customers in celebration. I disagree that TiVo never was technically competent, at one time in the beginning, TiVo was on top of its game, I am not ready to throw a shovel of dirt on TiVo's grave until I see if they have learned anything from Bolt/Hydra, their Vista Widows like turd. This is their shot, one more shot, an opportunity to stop and turn things around.

I believe the ship has sail with licensing. It's been 20 years. Technology moves fast for companies like Apple, but for TiVo, 20 years is very old technology like the sundials. I could see how an imbecile could mistake technology time with the speed lawyers and the Courts move, which only now just got out of the time before the biblical Flood.

Therefore, I totally agree with your statement, who in there right mind would buy a TiVo from these chuckle heads right now. Like I said, they have one shot left and it's the development of the Series 7. If they don't start at the beginning with a fully loaded machine they will not have the room in the box to do any innovation in modern technical execution that they need before Amazon and others eat them into a sad memory. At this moment in their history their legacy is theirs and need not be a sad memory of what they could have done. They have a small widow before next year where they could finally just DO IT. Just build it!


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> I am not ready to throw a shovel of dirt on TiVo's grave until I see if they have learned anything from Bolt/Hydra, their Vista Widows like turd.


Just one view but most of these posts have been shovels of dirt on TiVo's grave, if short of stomping to compact the dirt and dance, thereupon.

Also hilariously delusional to think the rate of innovation/development at TiVo would markedly change within the next few months.


----------



## Joe3

krkaufman said:


> Also hilariously delusional to think the rate of innovation/development at TiVo would markedly change within the next few months.


 It would be more crazy if I did not want them to succeed. The new Series 7 is the last call for them to do it better. But if they continue to screw it up like they have, with another weak product, it's closing time.


----------



## TonyD79

Joe3 said:


> This is* TiVo's 20th anniversary *and I think they're passing out lollipops or something to the first 200 TiVo customers in celebration. I disagree that TiVo never was technically competent, at one time in the beginning, TiVo was on top of its game, I am not ready to throw a shovel of dirt on TiVo's grave until I see if they have learned anything from Bolt/Hydra, their Vista Widows like turd. This is their shot, one more shot, an opportunity to stop and turn things around.
> 
> I believe the ship has sail with licensing. It's been 20 years. Technology moves fast for companies like Apple, but for TiVo, 20 years is very old technology like the sundials. I could see how an imbecile could mistake technology time with the speed lawyers and the Courts move, which only now just got out of the time before the biblical Flood.
> 
> Therefore, I totally agree with your statement, who in there right mind would buy a TiVo from these chuckle heads right now. Like I said, they have one shot left and it's the development of the Series 7. If they don't start at the beginning with a fully loaded machine they will not have the room in the box to do any innovation in modern technical execution that they need before Amazon and others eat them into a sad memory. At this moment in their history their legacy is theirs and need not be a sad memory of what they could have done. They have a small widow before next year where they could finally just DO IT. Just build it!


I would buy one if I needed it. Still a very solid dvr and much better than the crap fios would stick me with.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

OTA versions just hit the FCC.

Two models. *2-tuner 500 GB,* and 4 tuner 2 TB.


----------



## mattyro7878

Two tuner?? Any young,hip TiVo fans or any of us looking for two tuners?


----------



## Charles R

BigJimOutlaw said:


> OTA versions just hit the FCC.


My take (guess) is all the "new" models are simply replacements forced via EOL and outdated components which ends up making them cheaper to build.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Charles R said:


> My take (guess) is all the "new" models are simply replacements forced via EOL and outdated components which ends up making them cheaper to build.


I was thinking something similar. Bolts are still uniquely for retail. By doing this they can bring manufacturing under one umbrella.

Assuming they stick with a Broadcom CPU, they're about to hit a performance wall. Broadcom has cpu options with 15,000 dmips of performance (a modest boost from Bolt's 12k) and I think only one SOC with 21,000 dmips but that chip is 6 years old at this point and probably not available. There's not a lot of headroom to improve performance anymore.

I fear it's going to be extremely incremental... small CPU bump (25%). Dolby Vision, but the same crippled, outdated app platform and same other old problems.

Whatever software features they have will probably also be available for Bolt, so...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

So they tested a third bluetooth option... EDR (enhanced data rate, 2 mbps, 3 mbps).

It's a close-range protocol, so not ideal for streaming, but who wants to take a stab at that?


----------



## BobCamp1

mattyro7878 said:


> Two tuner?? Any young,hip TiVo fans or any of us looking for two tuners?


Two tuners works just fine for OTA, where there are only five real channels (six if you count PBS). I rarely use more than two tuners in my FIOS Bolt.

Besides, Tivo has the data to tell them whether or not a two tuner OTA product is viable.

Finally, there are no young, hip Tivo fans. They're a bunch of old geezers who are still clinging to cable TV. Anybody who's young doesn't watch TV that way -- they just stream it to their smartphones.


----------



## BobCamp1

BigJimOutlaw said:


> So they tested a third bluetooth option... EDR (enhanced data rate, 2 mbps, 3 mbps).
> 
> It's a close-range protocol, so not ideal for streaming, but who wants to take a stab at that?


Soundbars came to mind.


----------



## tarheelblue32

mattyro7878 said:


> Two tuner?? Any young,hip TiVo fans or any of us looking for two tuners?


Amazon, Tablo, and SiliconDust all offer 2 and 4-tuner OTA DVR systems. It makes sense for TiVo to offer both as well to try to compete head to head with them with a cheaper 2-tuner model.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

BigJimOutlaw said:


> OTA versions just hit the FCC.
> 
> Two models. *2-tuner 500 GB,* and 4 tuner 2 TB.
> 
> View attachment 41679


Just noticed there's only two MAC addresses on these.


----------



## tapokata

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Just noticed there's only two MAC addresses on these.


Likely no MoCA onboard.


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Just noticed there's only two MAC addresses on these.


What @tapokata said. If they're OTA-only, then "no MoCA" is following what they did with the 'BOLT OTA.'


----------



## OrangeCrush

mattyro7878 said:


> Two tuner?? Any young,hip TiVo fans or any of us looking for two tuners?


Eww, gross. No.



BobCamp1 said:


> Two tuners works just fine for OTA, where there are only five real channels (six if you count PBS). I rarely use more than two tuners in my FIOS Bolt.
> 
> Besides, Tivo has the data to tell them whether or not a two tuner OTA product is viable.
> 
> Finally, there are no young, hip Tivo fans. They're a bunch of old geezers who are still clinging to cable TV. Anybody who's young doesn't watch TV that way -- they just stream it to their smartphones.


I have five primaries--ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW; and multiple PBSes with their sub-channels in range that have worthwhile stuff on them. Plus a couple dozen subchannel/syndication-stations. And then there's the slightly brain-dead tuner locking when mini's join the party. Unless something's changed I'm not aware of, the main box always reserves a tuner and the minis all want a tuner of their very own when watching LiveTV. Multiple boxes/recording tasks won't intelligently share a single tuner. I easily occupy all 4 tuners on my Roamio OTA.

Smarter software and tuner allocation could alleviate that, but it's too limiting for me. Although I understand they're trying to hit a price point and the competition all offers 2-tuner options.

And I consider myself very young and hip _thankyouverymuch_! Why, I had avocado toast just the other day!


----------



## tapokata

Pure speculation on my part, but if Tivo future model is moving apps on OTT devices, perhaps the thinking here is dedicated tuners for associated devices will not be required. For example, Tablo offers a 2 tuner model, but still allows up to six clients to stream recordings concurrently. I don't see these "edge" devices utilized in the current Mini-device environment.


----------



## Mikeguy

BobCamp1 said:


> Two tuners works just fine for OTA, where there are only five real channels (six if you count PBS). I rarely use more than two tuners in my FIOS Bolt.
> 
> Besides, Tivo has the data to tell them whether or not a two tuner OTA product is viable.
> 
> Finally, there are no young, hip Tivo fans. They're a bunch of old geezers who are still clinging to cable TV. Anybody who's young doesn't watch TV that way -- they just stream it to their smartphones.


I think that it's fine to offer a 2-tuner version, presumably for those who are especially price-point sensitive.

For me, no way would I want to go back to 2-tuner days (actually, I never was in them to begin with: I went straight from a 1-tuner Series 2 TiVo box to a 4-tuner Roamio box--such bliss!). Even with 4 tuners, I recently have been finding, occasionally, my TiVo box telling me that a show I am trying to schedule for recording exceeds my number of available tuners. (Fortunately, the shows I've scheduled for recording often include a PBS show, which often are repeated overnight or at another time.)


----------



## Dan203

tapokata said:


> Pure speculation on my part, but if Tivo future model is moving apps on OTT devices, perhaps the thinking here is dedicated tuners for associated devices will not be required. For example, Tablo offers a 2 tuner model, but still allows up to six clients to stream recordings concurrently. I don't see these "edge" devices utilized in the current Mini-device environment.


The Tablo does a transcode of the source to a streamable format as it records, rather than recording in the native format and doing the transcode on the fly as it's streamed like TiVo does. This allows them to stream to more devices then they have transcoder cores for. I'm not sure if TiVo is planning on emulating this approach in the Edge or not but they probably should.

In fact I'm kind of hoping the whole design of the Edge is headless like the Tablo/HDHomeRun. Have the box do the recording and then use an app on a 3rd party streaming device (Apple TV, FireTV, etc...) as the main


----------



## Dan203

We don't actually have any specs on the Edge yet do we? Is it possible this could be a headless device, ala Tablo, that uses their new apps as the main UI?


----------



## tapokata

Interesting, as a lament heard from a small segment of Tablo users is the desire for an HDMI port on the Tablo...

It will be interesting to see if TiVo wants to continue to control the entire user experience, as they've tried to do with the "Unified Entertainment System" with the Bolt. That's a concept that works well, if the app selection available through TiVo suits your needs. App development and support, however, is an issue of market share- and this becomes a limitation when "live TV" apps such as Hulu Live, SlingTV, etc. are not offered.

We have both a Bolt and a Tablo Dual deployed at my house. My wife likes the all-in-one approach with the Bolt, that she uses on a Vizio set the she accesses more. I've found the apps offered on our other LG to have better features, and Tablo still develops apps for streaming boxes, as well as webOS, android, and Tizen based TV's. My only complaint with Tablo is in the transcoding. While it's typically fine for HD sources, it's not so great on SD source material, typically found on most sub-channels- you end up with lots of edge combing / mouse-toothing. TiVo's as-broadcast MPEG capture provides for better image quality.


----------



## Dan203

tapokata said:


> Interesting, as a lament heard from a small segment of Tablo users is the desire for an HDMI port on the Tablo...
> 
> It will be interesting to see if TiVo wants to continue to control the entire user experience, as they've tried to do with the "Unified Entertainment System" with the Bolt. That's a concept that works well, if the app selection available through TiVo suits your needs. App development and support, however, is an issue of market share- and this becomes a limitation when "live TV" apps such as Hulu Live, SlingTV, etc. are not offered.
> 
> We have both a Bolt and a Tablo Dual deployed at my house. My wife likes the all-in-one approach with the Bolt, that she uses on a Vizio set the she accesses more. I've found the apps offered on our other LG to have better features, and Tablo still develops apps for streaming boxes, as well as webOS, android, and Tizen based TV's. My only complaint with Tablo is in the transcoding. While it's typically fine for HD sources, it's not so great on SD source material, typically found on most sub-channels- you end up with lots of edge combing / mouse-toothing. TiVo's as-broadcast MPEG capture provides for better image quality.


TiVo has a video showing off their Android TV product, which is using some sort of Cloud DVR, and it shows the icons for the apps, including the Play Store, in the TiVo UI. So they appear to be using some sort of deep linking to the various apps to at least simulate the "Unified Entertainment System". Although that video specifically says something about "managed Android TV devices" so it's obviously designed to work with devices where the operator has some control over the default app that the Android TV returns to when the external app is done. Not sure how easy that's going to be to simulate on retail devices where the user will have to select the TiVo app to get back to the TiVo UI. Probably depends on how robust the API for a given platform is. If they offer a feature to launch an app from within another app and then return to the previous app when you close the launched app then they should be able to simulate it pretty well. If not then it could be more cumbersome for the user to navigate.


----------



## Dan203

Actually I'm wondering.... with regular Android devices it's possible to load an app that takes over the main "launcher" changing the whole UI of the device itself. I haven't ever used an Android TV device, but I wonder if the same thing is possible? Maybe TiVo's app could be used as a "launcher" so that it takes over the whole UI of the Android TV device itself and becomes the main UI? I don't think that's possible on other devices, but could at least create an integrated experience if you use an Android TV device as your starting point. Maybe they can even release their own Android TV devices with this sort of thing pre-installed as a replacement for the Mini?


----------



## Joe3

Ok


Dan203 said:


> TiVo has a video showing off their Android TV product, which is using some sort of Cloud DVR, and it shows the icons for the apps, including the Play Store, in the TiVo UI. ...


Pretty sure I've seen the same video and it was not the TiVo UI, but the TiVo app on a streaming device like Ruko, Apple TV, etc...


----------



## Dan203

Joe3 said:


> Ok
> 
> Pretty sure I've seen the same video and it was not the TiVo UI, but the TiVo app on a streaming device like Ruko, Apple TV, etc...


TiVo for Android TV | TiVo


----------



## Joe3

Dan203 said:


> TiVo for Android TV | TiVo


Thanks for posting. Clearly, not video I saw.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Actually I'm wondering.... with regular Android devices it's possible to load an app that takes over the main "launcher" changing the whole UI of the device itself. I haven't ever used an Android TV device, but I wonder if the same thing is possible? Maybe TiVo's app could be used as a "launcher" so that it takes over the whole UI of the Android TV device itself and becomes the main UI? I don't think that's possible on other devices, but could at least create an integrated experience if you use an Android TV device as your starting point. Maybe they can even release their own Android TV devices with this sort of thing pre-installed as a replacement for the Mini?


What you're describing here is essentially what Google calls "Android TV Operator Tier". When a pay TV operator licenses Android TV Operator Tier, they can use their own app as the default launcher, including certain UI elements of the regular Android TV launcher that appears on retail devices like the Mi Box and Nvidia Shield TV (e.g. menu choices for Apps, Settings, etc.). AT&T is doing this on their upcoming streaming TV box currently being beta tested. Sling TV did this with their Air TV Player device, which they sell for use with Sling TV. And this is what TiVo has done with the Android TV boxes that are part of their Next Gen IPTV Platform.

Whether or not Google would allow TiVo to use Operator Tier on a retail TiVo device intended for use with OTA TV, as opposed for deployment by a pay TV operator for use with their own service, I don't know. I'm not aware of such a use-case of Operator Tier in the past.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> TiVo for Android TV | TiVo





Dan203 said:


> TiVo has a video showing off their Android TV product, which is using some sort of Cloud DVR, and it shows the icons for the apps, including the Play Store, in the TiVo UI.









​Mildly irritating that they haven't pushed for this as their primary retail architecture, given the app gap that seems insurmountable.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> The Tablo does a transcode of the source to a streamable format as it records, rather than recording in the native format and doing the transcode on the fly as it's streamed like TiVo does. This allows them to stream to more devices then they have transcoder cores for. I'm not sure if TiVo is planning on emulating this approach in the Edge or not but they probably should.
> 
> In fact I'm kind of hoping the whole design of the Edge is headless like the Tablo/HDHomeRun. Have the box do the recording and then use an app on a 3rd party streaming device (Apple TV, FireTV, etc...) as the main


I think you might be onto something by thinking that the TiVo Edge might have the processing power to transcode all cable/OTA streams on-the-fly to MPEG4/h.264, making the box better equipped to push out live and recorded content to a range of third-party devices on the "edge" of the home network.

Given that the Edge architecture is built around what TiVo's cable partners need, I doubt it will be a headless box. I still expect it to have HDMI output for standalone single-TV use-cases. But it may also be possible to simply use it as a headless network server box by simply not plugging it into a TV. Perhaps the initial set-up and full functionality will be accessible through TiVo's apps for Roku, Apple TV, Fire TV, Android TV, etc.



krkaufman said:


> View attachment 41682
> ​Mildly irritating that they haven't pushed for this as their primary retail architecture, given the app gap that seems insurmountable.


I question whether Google allows manufacturers to license Android TV Operator Tier to create a retail device that isn't sold directly by a pay TV operator with customizations made specifically for that operator's own service. A TiVo with CableCARD and/or OTA antenna support sold by TiVo/Arris at retail probably would not qualify for Android TV Operator Tier (although if Arris wanted to create their own retail Android TV streamer using Google's standard UI, as seen on the Nvidia Shield TV and the Mi Box, that would be OK.)


----------



## tarheelblue32

krkaufman said:


> Mildly irritating that they haven't pushed for this as their primary retail architecture, given the app gap that seems insurmountable.


The "app gap" is currently TiVo's biggest shortcoming, and it has been for years now. If they can't or won't solve that by doing something like allowing this new box to use android TV apps, then they're probably dead in the water.


----------



## Dan203

I was just reading a few stories on the subject and it sounds like TiVo specifically said at CES this year that they were working on their next gen platform and that it would run on Android TV. I also did some research on the Android TV "operator tier" and it appears that TiVo has in fact been approved as an "operator" and that Android TV Operator Tier can be customized enough to allow them to take over the launcher. It also has a built in DVR API that includes recording, time shifting a live buffer and PIP, so TiVo wouldn't even need their old Linux backend. They could theoretically just use the built in API for all the DVR parts and focus on the UI and data parts. The only real question is if Google would allow them to release a retail device running the "operator tier". I couldn't find anything that explicitly prohibited that. From what I read it sounds like the "operator tier" is just a way for Google to limit customization to partners they deem worthy of being called "operators". Since TiVo is already approved it's completely possible that Google would allow them to sell a device at retail as well.

After reading all this I'm starting to think the Edge might actually be an Android TV device. This could be a major technological shift for TiVo. If they do in fact use the internal Android DVR API rather than their own it could explain why they're splitting the company up. They no longer need the patents and back end bits if they're using the built in API for the DVR parts and just writing an "app" that serves as the UI. This could also explain why they've removed the ability to transfer shows from TE4 and only allow streaming. If they're using the DVR API of the OS then it would likely use a different encryption/protection scheme then existing units and probably won't be compatible.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

An HDMI cable was indicated in the testing of the units, so I think they'll function as regular DVRs.

As for Android, there is a lot of code Tivo would have to port or create from scratch. As far as I'm aware all of Android's DVR functionality is IP based. Tivo would have to code cablecard APIs and other core logic unique to them. Since Tivo is Tivo, I tend to doubt they'd do that legwork, but I am hopeful, because I'm really tired of the missing/outdated apps.


----------



## NashGuy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> An HDMI cable was indicated in the testing of the units, so I think they'll function as regular DVRs.
> 
> As for Android, there is a lot of code Tivo would have to port or create from scratch. As far as I'm aware all of Android's DVR functionality is IP based. Tivo would have to code cablecard APIs and other core logic unique to them. Since Tivo is Tivo, I tend to doubt they'd do that legwork, but I am hopeful, because I'm really tired of the missing/outdated apps.


I'm pretty sure that there has never been a CableCARD device that runs Google Android TV. There's a first time for everything but, as you allude, it wouldn't be a trivial matter. And wouldn't such a device, with its new software/firmware architecture, need to pass certification muster with CableLabs?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

NashGuy said:


> I'm pretty sure that there has never been a CableCARD device that runs Google Android TV. There's a first time for everything but, as you allude, it wouldn't be a trivial matter. And wouldn't such a device, with its new software/firmware architecture, need to pass certification muster with CableLabs?


Yep. This box showed up in the April list. We dropped the ball and could have learned about it sooner. 

https://www-res.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/17210750/OC_PNP_Public_April_2019.pdf


----------



## leiff

Do we think this new box will serve anyone better who already has a bolt and fire stick?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

leiff said:


> Do we think this new box will serve anyone better who already has a bolt and fire stick?


There's a chance it'll do a better job at streaming to Roku/Fire/Apple devices once those apps are released, but really we don't know squat yet.


----------



## randian

BigJimOutlaw said:


> And hopefully the back button on the remote is larger since they can 86 the Thumbs now.


How will some of the shortcuts work then? I use left-thumb/right-thumb/up/up a lot to reset the UI because my Roamio with Hydra loses WiFi connectivity (or at least thinks it did) on an almost daily basis.


----------



## randian

TostitoBandito said:


> I still don't understand who in their right mind would buy a new Tivo device right now with IPTV on the horizon and no signs that Tivo can be remotely competitive with Amazon/Google/Apple/Roku as a streaming device.


The Apple TV is a superior streaming device, but all of the "DVR" services I've tried on it either have unskippable commercials (Google) or deliberately crippled quality compared to their live streams (DirecTV Now). DTVN is also bizarrely unreliable. I often got DVR "recordings" of one hour shows what were, for example, 27 minutes long. You would think that impossible when broadcast interference and cable outages are inapplicable events.


----------



## CloudAtlas

Dan203 said:


> After reading all this I'm starting to think the Edge might actually be an Android TV device.


In the short term there is zero chance of TiVO Edge shipping in September running Android TV based software. First, there's been no user testing. Second, TiVO would now have three software platforms with TE3 (20.x), TE4 (21.x) and TE4+ (22.x*)!!

A TE4 migration rollout to Android TV would happen just like the TE3 migration from Adobe Flash to Haxe in the summer of 2013. That release did the impossible: make a TiVO Premiere feel quick.


Dan203 said:


> This could be a major technological shift for TiVo. If they do in fact use the internal Android DVR API rather than their own it could explain why they're splitting the company up. They no longer need the patents ...


The decision to split was almost certainly due to how Wall St currently values TiVO . I'm sure the hope is that the parts are worth more than the whole. And makes it less costly to buy a part of the company. Maybe Apple (with its 250B! cash pile) will snap up the patent IP company.


----------



## Joe3

Dan203 said:


> I was just reading a few stories on the subject and it sounds like TiVo specifically said at CES this year that they were working on their next gen platform and that it would run on Android TV. I also did some research on the Android TV "operator tier" and it appears that TiVo has in fact been approved as an "operator" and that Android TV Operator Tier can be customized enough to allow them to take over the launcher. It also has a built in DVR API that includes recording, time shifting a live buffer and PIP, so TiVo wouldn't even need their old Linux backend. They could theoretically just use the built in API for all the DVR parts and focus on the UI and data parts. The only real question is if Google would allow them to release a retail device running the "operator tier". I couldn't find anything that explicitly prohibited that. From what I read it sounds like the "operator tier" is just a way for Google to limit customization to partners they deem worthy of being called "operators". Since TiVo is already approved it's completely possible that Google would allow them to sell a device at retail as well.
> 
> After reading all this I'm starting to think the Edge might actually be an Android TV device. This could be a major technological shift for TiVo. If they do in fact use the internal Android DVR API rather than their own it could explain why they're splitting the company up. They no longer need the patents and back end bits if they're using the built in API for the DVR parts and just writing an "app" that serves as the UI. This could also explain why they've removed the ability to transfer shows from TE4 and only allow streaming. If they're using the DVR API of the OS then it would likely use a different encryption/protection scheme then existing units and probably won't be compatible.


Like the thinking, and the speculation goes with the thought they need to do something quickly, surprisingly innovative, and that works. However, all we know as of yesterday:

Tivo Has a New Cord Cutting DVR in The Works Called The Tivo Edge


----------



## Dan203

Joe3 said:


> Like the thinking, and the speculation goes with the thought they need to do something quickly, surprisingly innovative, and that works. However, all we know as of yesterday:
> 
> Tivo Has a New Cord Cutting DVR in The Works Called The Tivo Edge


What does that say that discounts them using Android TV? I don't see anything there that we didn't already know.

That being said this is TiVo so I know that coming up with something cutting edge and innovative is unlikely. But I can still dream.


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> I don't see anything there that we didn't already know.


Most of the article was about the pledged app for streaming boxes. (not a huge fan of cordcutternews; usually seems like rough, often inaccurate plagiarism)

One more thing I'm wondering about on seeing the recent EDGE revelations ... They appear to have FCC filings for an EDGE for Cable and two different EDGE for Antenna models (see Zatz article) ... so where does that leave the hybrid *Cable or OTA model for the Series 7?*


----------



## Lurker1

krkaufman said:


> (not a huge fan of cordcutternews; usually seems like rough, often inaccurate plagiarism)


Agree 100%. Inaccurate plagiarism, and paid advertisements masquerading as news. Spelling and grammar errors worse than most spam. I do not understand that site's popularity.


----------



## tarheelblue32

krkaufman said:


> One more thing I'm wondering about on seeing the recent EDGE revelations ... They appear to have FCC filings for an EDGE for Cable and two different EDGE for Antenna models (see Zatz article) ... so where does that leave the hybrid *Cable or OTA model for the Series 7?*


I'm guessing there probably won't be one. Honestly, it's kind of confusing to explain to customers that there are ota-only models, cable-only models, and hybrid models that can be used for both, but not at the same time. TiVo has never done a very good job on their website of explaining it, probably because it's a little complicated for the average consumer to understand. Having only ota models and cable models simplifies things dramatically from a marketing standpoint.


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## Dan203

One more bonus of Android TV that comes built in.... user profiles. TiVo might be able to get user profiles for "free" if they used the Android TV platform entirely.

Heck reading the API docs I think I might be able to design a DVR with this thing.


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## bbrown9

Should I assume that the cable TiVo Edge will have 6 tuners?


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## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> One more bonus of Android TV that comes built in.... user profiles. TiVo might be able to get user profiles for "free" if they used the Android TV platform entirely.


Now you're just being cruel.


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## NashGuy

Lurker1 said:


> Agree 100%. Inaccurate plagiarism, and paid advertisements masquerading as news. Spelling and grammar errors worse than most spam. I do not understand that site's popularity.


Yup. I often think "Why didn't I come up with the idea to launch a site like CCN? I could have done it better and it would have paid me a lot more than what I get to post stuff on TCF all the time, which is $0.00!"


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> One more bonus of Android TV that comes built in.... user profiles. TiVo might be able to get user profiles for "free" if they used the Android TV platform entirely.
> 
> Heck reading the API docs I think I might be able to design a DVR with this thing.


Yep, you probably could design an OTA DVR using Android TV. It actually has built-in system-level support for OTA tuners and at least rudimentary DVR controls. And it has native support for USB and SD-based external storage for DVR recordings. All of that stuff can be accessed through Google's own Live Channels app for Android TV but those features can also be passed through to more ambitious third-party live TV+DVR apps designed for Android TV.

The real trick, from both a technical and business perspective, would be getting CableCARD to play nice as part of an Android TV-based DVR. Which is why I highly doubt that the TiVo Edge will run any variant of Android TV. Remember, the TiVo Edge for Cable will simply be a retail version of an Arris CableCARD DVR designed for QAM TV cable operators. And the TiVo Edge for Antenna will just be the TiVo Edge for Cable with the CableCARD removed and the QAM tuners replaced with ATSC 1.0 tuners. (Unless it instead sports ATSC 3.0 tuners but, nah, we don't really believe that, do we?)


----------



## ITGrouch

Charles R said:


> My take (guess) is all the "new" models are simply replacements forced via EOL and outdated components which ends up making them cheaper to build.


Charles, you hit the nail straight on the head. Since I worked in the network technology field for over 30 years before I retired, I will relate on Cisco. Cisco has built models of network equipment that were for sale for years and years. It comes to a point where this equipment becomes technologically obsolete, also on a parts level, and the equipment goes to EOL and new equipment is brought to market to replace it. And yes, it is cheaper to manufacture, but don't expect the price to be commensurate to the manufacturing cost...it's still expensive.


----------



## NashGuy

ITGrouch said:


> Charles, you hit the nail straight on the head. Since I worked in the network technology field for over 30 years before I retired, I will relate on Cisco. Cisco has built models of network equipment that were for sale for years and years. It comes to a point where this equipment becomes technologically obsolete, also on a parts level, and the equipment goes to EOL and new equipment is brought to market to replace it. And yes, it is cheaper to manufacture, but don't expect the price to be commensurate to the manufacturing cost...it's still expensive.


Yup. And as a bonus beyond the reduced manufacturing costs, the marketing team gets to generate some excitement and media attention by assigning a new brand name, logo, and advertising campaign around the "new" product.

To be fair, I do believe that the TiVo Edge will introduce at least some modest improvements over the TiVo Bolt. Mainly support for Dolby Vision HDR and a little faster processor. I also think we'll see a slightly updated/more compact peanut remote control. Perhaps we'll also see on-the-fly transcoding of live streams to high-quality MPEG-4/h.264 before recording to the hard drive to save hard drive space and improve the UX when accessing live and recorded TV via the TiVo app on third-party devices. And lastly, maybe the physical styling of the TiVo Edge will be more conventional and appealing to a broader audience than the Bolt.

Beyond that, I'm skeptical that the TiVo Edge will offer any improvements over the current Bolt models.


----------



## OrangeTurtle

A few months back I sold my Roamio basic and ugpraded to a Bolt (500gb cable/ota model) during the great sale they had on refurb units back in the spring. Notice it to be a bit snappier, but I have been wondering if tivo would ever release a new box as the bolt is now about 4 year old tech - VERY happy they are doing this. Hoping for something that has better reliability (like the Roamio was) and better heat disbursement than the bolt, with of course updated internal components.

I expect Tivo to do another summer sale in July, with the new product announced in August.

I actually hope they continue to offer the hybrid models- I switch between OTA and cable from time to time (sports dependent here), so the hybrid is nice.


----------



## randian

NashGuy said:


> Perhaps we'll also see on-the-fly transcoding of live streams to high-quality MPEG-4/h.264 before recording to the hard drive to save hard drive space and improve the UX when accessing live and recorded TV via the TiVo app on third-party devices.


If they do I hope it can be disabled, for those of us unwilling to take the video quality hit.


----------



## Dan203

randian said:


> If they do I hope it can be disabled, for those of us unwilling to take the video quality hit.


The main reason they'd do this is to provide a better streaming experience, so it's unlikely they'd offer an option to disable it.

But that doesn't mean you'd notice a big quality change. Most modern streaming devices can do 1080p now, so really it would come down to the quality of their deinterlacer. Right now if you have your TiVo set to anything other than "native" mode you're using it's deinterlacer anyway, so a recode to a high bitrate 1080p wouldn't really look any different then what you're already getting. If they do recode they'll likely have quality choices like the old S2 units. (or the mobile apps) So you'll get to choose between space saving and quality. At the highest quality setting you'd be unlikely to be able to even see the difference.

Edit: One additional upside to doing this... you could potentially move a protected recording to a mobile device and then move it back to your TiVo if you didn't watch it.


----------



## tapokata

I'll believe it when it actually happens. TiVo has said that even providing transcoded H.264 at a more than 720p @ 30fps is currently a development/resource challenge.

De-interlacing and transcoding is very hard to do. Tablo, at best, can do 720p60 and 1080p.... something... in a 10 Mbps encoded stream, and for that to occur on a their 4 tuner Quad units, one of the tuners has to be taken off-line. Despite that "best resolution", the de-interlacing on standard definition material (the 480i that lives on nearly every sub-channel being broadcast in this country) is not great- lots of mouse-toothed edges, jagged angular lines, and smeared colors. Amazon is putting all content from their recast at a transcoded 720p60 H.264 stream, but at a variable bit rate from 2 to 16 Mbps- the results can be under-whelming. Silicon Dust, for the most part, like TiVo, is content to move MPEG-2 files around, so no transcoding is necessary.


----------



## dianebrat

krkaufman said:


> Most of the article was about the pledged app for streaming boxes. (not a huge fan of cordcutternews; usually seems like rough, often inaccurate plagiarism)


They pop up on the newsfeed with Google's pages in the assorted Google apps and I think that's where they get the visits.


----------



## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> I'll believe it when it actually happens. TiVo has said that even providing transcoded H.264 at a more than 720p @ 30fps is currently a development/resource challenge.
> 
> De-interlacing and transcoding is very hard to do. Tablo, at best, can do 720p60 and 1080p.... something... in a 10 Mbps encoded stream, and for that to occur on a their 4 tuner Quad units, one of the tuners has to be taken off-line. Despite that "best resolution", the de-interlacing on standard definition material (the 480i that lives on nearly every sub-channel being broadcast in this country) is not great- lots of mouse-toothed edges, jagged angular lines, and smeared colors. Amazon is putting all content from their recast at a transcoded 720p60 H.264 stream, but at a variable bit rate from 2 to 16 Mbps- the results can be under-whelming. Silicon Dust, for the most part, like TiVo, is content to move MPEG-2 files around, so no transcoding is necessary.


Good info here. I can only add that I had a Tablo for awhile and kept it set on the highest quality setting, transcoding 1080i MPEG-2 to 1080p MPEG-4 and 720p MPEG-2 to 720p MPEG-4. I scrutinized a bit the HD PQ of recordings but honestly noticed no flaws or deficiencies vs. what I had been used to seeing previously on my TiVo Roamio OTA. They looked great. (Oddly, I do notice that PQ is a bit worse, whether live or recorded, for OTA TV coming through my Silicon Dust network tuner vs. any other tuner I've used, and the Silicon Dust doesn't transcode!)

That said, I don't think I ever watched much of anything in 480i SD on the Tablo, so I didn't notice the de-interlacing problems you see there. But given that processing SD content involves so many fewer pixels, I would think it wouldn't be all that challenging to de-interlace and transcode well, relative to 1080i. It's certainly possible that the TiVo Edge might do a better job on SD than Tablo, and just as well (or even better) on HD.


----------



## Dan203

tapokata said:


> I'll believe it when it actually happens. TiVo has said that even providing transcoded H.264 at a more than 720p @ 30fps is currently a development/resource challenge.
> 
> De-interlacing and transcoding is very hard to do. Tablo, at best, can do 720p60 and 1080p.... something... in a 10 Mbps encoded stream, and for that to occur on a their 4 tuner Quad units, one of the tuners has to be taken off-line. Despite that "best resolution", the de-interlacing on standard definition material (the 480i that lives on nearly every sub-channel being broadcast in this country) is not great- lots of mouse-toothed edges, jagged angular lines, and smeared colors. Amazon is putting all content from their recast at a transcoded 720p60 H.264 stream, but at a variable bit rate from 2 to 16 Mbps- the results can be under-whelming. Silicon Dust, for the most part, like TiVo, is content to move MPEG-2 files around, so no transcoding is necessary.


Resources aren't as precious as they use to be. The chip in the original Stream and Roamio Pro could do 4 streams simultaneously and it was something developed 7 years ago. It's all about cost.

The real question is... how important is the user experience on these 3rd party streamers? If it's top priority and a planned replacement for the Mini then they have to transcode to provide a seamless experience. If it's secondary and they plan to keep selling their own Mini then they can continue to do stream time transcoding like they do now. But as anyone who's ever used the mobile apps knows, the experience is far from seamless. It works "ok", but it's not a good Mini replacement for daily use.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> To be fair, I do believe that the TiVo Edge will introduce at least some modest improvements over the TiVo Bolt. Mainly support for Dolby Vision HDR and a little faster processor. I also think we'll see a slightly updated/more compact peanut remote control. Perhaps we'll also see on-the-fly transcoding of live streams to high-quality MPEG-4/h.264 before recording to the hard drive to save hard drive space and improve the UX when accessing live and recorded TV via the TiVo app on third-party devices. And lastly, maybe the physical styling of the TiVo Edge will be more conventional and appealing to a broader audience than the Bolt.
> 
> Beyond that, I'm skeptical that the TiVo Edge will offer any improvements over the current Bolt models.


 At this point, so far, with information that we have that's still very little, but showing no signs of quality product spec improvements to indicate that they are serious about improving the TiVo experience, why would anyone need be fair or want to forgive TiVo for its continued planed obsolescence in mediocrity?

With all respect, haven't you had enough of their bull ****. I follow what you've been posting for a long time. And I keep wondering if you are an apologist for TiVo. This box, the way it's speced out, its a piece of junk. There is no need to do any of these go rounds if the box had the proper specs to achieve the quality. The box is not supporting 3 TB of storage. The processor is just a little bit better, maybe. How stupid dose TiVo think the people are? People are not going to buy a box that's junk. This is still an active niche market that knows it's way around the technology. This is TiVos last call to really do something better before the competition catches up to them. if TiVo produces a weak box this go round, it's all but a assured that the competition isn't stupid enough to make that mistake next go round. Amazon doesn't probably care about this DVR field that much. But if TiVo is going to hand it to them then they're going to crush TiVo to put them out of business permanently. This is what competitors do. The day of apologizing for TiVos bad decisions, it's weak boxes, its flawed boxes whose software it struggles with because it's a week box are over. If TiVo blows this opportunity, then they're going to be threads here speculating on the year they going to be bankrupt and out of business.


----------



## tapokata

Dan203 said:


> Resources aren't as precious as they use to be. The chip in the original Stream and Roamio Pro could do 4 streams simultaneously and it was something developed 7 years ago. It's all about cost.





https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/23/tivo-says-its-upcoming-apple-tv-streaming-app-will-be-limited-to-720p-at-30-fps/ said:


> Speaking to _TechHive_, Ted Malone, TiVo's vice president of consumer products and services, offered additional details on the upcoming streaming apps.
> 
> Namely, Malone revealed that the video streams available through the TiVo streaming app will be limited to 720p resolution with 30 frames-per-second. This is a noticeable limitation, especially in 2019, but *Malone says it's due to allocating resources*:
> 
> In a demo, the streaming apps looked similar to the menu system on TiVo's own hardware, but they do have one notable limitation: Video streams will be limited to 720p resolution at 30 frames per second. That means you won't get the smooth motion of 60-fps video for sports, news, and talk programming, nor will you be able to watch broadcasts in their native MPEG-2 format.
> 
> "I want 720p 60 [fps]," Malone said. "I've done some internal demos proving that 720p 60 [fps] is actually noticeably better than 720p 30. *It's really a battle for resources and just getting it done*."


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> If TiVo blows this opportunity, then they're going to be threads here speculating on the year they going to be bankrupt and out of business.


Hasn't that been a topic for like 20 years, lol?  And bless it, TiVo is still here.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Joe3 said:


> At this point, so far, with information that we have that's still very little, but showing no signs of quality product spec improvements to indicate that they are serious about improving the TiVo experience, why would anyone need be fair or want to forgive TiVo for its continued planed obsolescence in mediocrity?
> 
> With all respect, haven't you had enough of their bull ****. I follow what you've been posting for a long time. And I keep wondering if you are an apologist for TiVo. This box, the way it's speced out, its a piece of junk. There is no need to do any of these go rounds if the box had the proper specs to achieve the quality. The box is not supporting 3 TB of storage. The processor is just a little bit better, maybe. How stupid dose TiVo think the people are? People are not going to buy a box that's junk. This is still an active niche market that knows it's way around the technology. This is TiVos last call to really do something better before the competition catches up to them. if TiVo produces a weak box this go round, it's all but a assured that the competition isn't stupid enough to make that mistake next go round. Amazon doesn't probably care about this DVR field that much. But if TiVo is going to hand it to them then they're going to crush TiVo to put them out of business permanently. This is what competitors do. The day of apologizing for TiVos bad decisions, it's weak boxes, its flawed boxes whose software it struggles with because it's a week box are over. If TiVo blows this opportunity, then they're going to be threads here speculating on the year they going to be bankrupt and out of business.


But how fast of a processor does a DVR really need to have? The Bolt seems plenty fast to me. And are you willing to spend $700+monthly service fees on a DVR with really great specs? Because I doubt there are very many people that would.


----------



## pfiagra

Does anyone remember the duration of time from when TiVo filed the Bolt specs with the FCC to when the initial Bolt model was actually released?


----------



## Dan203

tapokata said:


> https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/23/tivo-says-its-upcoming-apple-tv-streaming-app-will-be-limited-to-720p-at-30-fps/ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking to _TechHive_, Ted Malone, TiVo's vice president of consumer products and services, offered additional details on the upcoming streaming apps.
> 
> Namely, Malone revealed that the video streams available through the TiVo streaming app will be limited to 720p resolution with 30 frames-per-second. This is a noticeable limitation, especially in 2019, but *Malone says it's due to allocating resources*:
> 
> In a demo, the streaming apps looked similar to the menu system on TiVo's own hardware, but they do have one notable limitation: Video streams will be limited to 720p resolution at 30 frames per second. That means you won't get the smooth motion of 60-fps video for sports, news, and talk programming, nor will you be able to watch broadcasts in their native MPEG-2 format.
> 
> "I want 720p 60 [fps]," Malone said. "I've done some internal demos proving that 720p 60 [fps] is actually noticeably better than 720p 30. *It's really a battle for resources and just getting it done*."
Click to expand...

Well that doesn't sound good. I can't imagine that they'd actually recode all recordings to such a sh*tty format. So they must be doing a stream time transcode like they're doing now.


----------



## Dan203

pfiagra said:


> Does anyone remember the duration of time from when TiVo filed the Bolt specs with the FCC to when the initial Bolt model was actually released?


Typically TiVo tries to release new units before the new TV season starts, so late August. Unless there is some issue I'd assume that's what they're aiming for here. I wonder if there are already people beta testing this and we just didn't know it because they're bound by NDA? I beta tested the original S3 and had it for almost a year before it was released to the public.


----------



## NashGuy

Joe3 said:


> At this point, so far, with information that we have that's still very little, but showing no signs of quality product spec improvements to indicate that they are serious about improving the TiVo experience, why would anyone need be fair or want to forgive TiVo for its continued planed obsolescence in mediocrity?
> 
> With all respect, haven't you had enough of their bull ****. I follow what you've been posting for a long time. And I keep wondering if you are an apologist for TiVo. This box, the way it's speced out, its a piece of junk. There is no need to do any of these go rounds if the box had the proper specs to achieve the quality. The box is not supporting 3 TB of storage. The processor is just a little bit better, maybe. How stupid dose TiVo think the people are? People are not going to buy a box that's junk. This is still an active niche market that knows it's way around the technology. This is TiVos last call to really do something better before the competition catches up to them. if TiVo produces a weak box this go round, it's all but a assured that the competition isn't stupid enough to make that mistake next go round. Amazon doesn't probably care about this DVR field that much. But if TiVo is going to hand it to them then they're going to crush TiVo to put them out of business permanently. This is what competitors do. The day of apologizing for TiVos bad decisions, it's weak boxes, its flawed boxes whose software it struggles with because it's a week box are over. If TiVo blows this opportunity, then they're going to be threads here speculating on the year they going to be bankrupt and out of business.


<shrug> Well, I guess I try to be fair and honest in giving my opinions and assessments. That means pointing out both the good and bad (inasmuch as either exists in a particular situation).

I certainly wouldn't say I'm apologist for TiVo. I think they're a once-great groundbreaking company who made one of the, if not the, finest series of DVRs in the world. (That said, I don't agree with many TiVo fans who find it to be _far and away_ better than anything else available; check out the DISH Hopper and Xfinity's X1.)

But I've been pretty clear in voicing my opinion that TiVo is past their prime, that linear channel cable TV and the physical DVR are both fading away, and that TiVo as a company really has no great options left to pursue in the long-term given that they didn't get out in front of the streaming revolution early on like Roku. I didn't think they'd ever produce another retail CableCARD DVR after the series 6 Bolt but they're proving me wrong with the series 7 Edge. But then, I'd bet that the decision to create the Edge is driven more by Arris, rather than TiVo, because Arris wants to reduce costs in their manufacturing and, as I said, I doubt that the TiVo Edge will offer all that much in the way of improvements over the Bolt. But OTOH, how much is left to improve in terms of TiVo hardware? The biggest problems that the TiVo Bolt has are its app platform and, to a lesser extent, the quality of the guide and maybe the Hydra UI. That's all about the software and the service, not the hardware. I don't think any of those things will change on the Edge.

Beyond that, I don't own TiVo stock nor do I even own an actual TiVo any more! I began frequenting this forum a few years ago when I decided to buy a TiVo Roamio OTA. It was a very good DVR but an inferior streamer and never lived up to my hopes that it could be my "all-in-one" cord-cutting entertainment box. (My Apple TV 4K, along with an external OTA tuner and hard drive, fulfills that desire far better.) I sold my TiVo over a year ago but I've stuck around here at TCF because I enjoy the back-and-forth and I like following where TV and technology are going. The TiVo enthusiast community on here reminds me a bit of the smallish world of Apple Mac fans back in the late 90s and early 00s (before everyone started buying iPods and other Apple products, completely transforming the company). Like Apple, TiVo has long commanded a sort of cult-like following. But things are turning out very differently for TiVo than for Apple.


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> Hasn't that been a topic for like 20 years, lol?  And bless it, TiVo is still here.


Time doesn't stand still. And reasons for concern today about this company's future have changed to something substantial and measurable in the last few years.



tarheelblue32 said:


> But how fast of a processor does a DVR really need to have? The Bolt seems plenty fast to me. And are you willing to spend $700+monthly service fees on a DVR with really great specs? Because I doubt there are very many people that would.


Yes!

Because I will wind up paying much more when I have to purchase another TiVo much sooner than a laptop, a smartphone, or sound system or any other technology.

With weak specs you are paying more and not realizing it. With weak specs, changing TiVos becomes like changing ridiculously expensive light bulbs with a quick burn out rate. TiVo customers are not saving. TiVo customers are spending when TiVo becomes prematurely obsolete and you must purchase another one. Limiting the specs may keep the cost down upfront, sure, but the joke is you wind paying more money on a newer TiVo than you would if you paid more for better specs that made your TiVo last longer at the purchase in first place. You pay more one way or the other, but having a TiVo that is better made and last longer is the cheaper way to do it.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> <shrug> Well, I guess I try to be fair and honest in giving my opinions and assessments. That means pointing out both the good and bad (inasmuch as either exists in a particular situation).
> 
> I certainly wouldn't say I'm apologist for TiVo. I think they're a once-great groundbreaking company who made one of the, if not the, finest series of DVRs in the world. (That said, I don't agree with many TiVo fans who find it to be _far and away_ better than anything else available; check out the DISH Hopper and Xfinity's X1.)
> 
> But I've been pretty clear in voicing my opinion that TiVo is past their prime, that linear channel cable TV and the physical DVR are both fading away, and that TiVo as a company really has no great options left to pursue in the long-term given that they didn't get out in front of the streaming revolution early on like Roku. I didn't think they'd ever produce another retail CableCARD DVR after the series 6 Bolt but they're proving me wrong with the series 7 Edge. But then, I'd bet that the decision to create the Edge is driven more by Arris, rather than TiVo, because Arris wants to reduce costs in their manufacturing and, as I said, I doubt that the TiVo Edge will offer all that much in the way of improvements over the Bolt. But OTOH, how much is left to improve in terms of TiVo hardware? The biggest problems that the TiVo Bolt has are its app platform and, to a lesser extent, the quality of the guide and maybe the Hydra UI. That's all about the software and the service, not the hardware. I don't think any of those things will change on the Edge.
> 
> Beyond that, I don't own TiVo stock nor do I even own an actual TiVo any more! I began frequenting this forum a few years ago when I decided to buy a TiVo Roamio OTA. It was a very good DVR but an inferior streamer and never lived up to my hopes that it could be my "all-in-one" cord-cutting entertainment box. (My Apple TV 4K, along with an external OTA tuner and hard drive, fulfills that desire far better.) I sold my TiVo over a year ago but I've stuck around here at TCF because I enjoy the back-and-forth and I like following where TV and technology are going. The TiVo enthusiast community on here reminds me a bit of the smallish world of Apple Mac fans back in the late 90s and early 00s (before everyone started buying iPods and other Apple products, completely transforming the company). Like Apple, TiVo has long commanded a sort of cult-like following. But things are turning out very differently for TiVo than for Apple.


Mentioning the fact you don't own a TiVo at the beginning of your posts would be nice for clarification.

I will probably be joining you.


----------



## NashGuy

Joe3 said:


> Mentioning the fact you don't own a TiVo at the beginning of your posts would be nice for clarification.
> 
> I will probably be joining you.


But I did own one for a long while and I know a fair amount about them (although not as much as many others on this forum). I see no reason to disclose that info each and every time I post something here.

At any rate, if you're deciding to move on from TiVo, I hope you find a new solution that works for you.


----------



## d_anders

tarheelblue32 said:


> But how fast of a processor does a DVR really need to have? The Bolt seems plenty fast to me. And are you willing to spend $700+monthly service fees on a DVR with really great specs? Because I doubt there are very many people that would.


I'd be willing to opt out (via settings) of 1-2 tuners to have 720 60fps streaming.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HerronScott

Joe3 said:


> Because I will wind up paying much more when I have to purchase another TiVo much sooner than a laptop, a smartphone, or sound system or any other technology.


What's forcing you to buy a newer TiVo? We have no problem with the Roamio Pro that we bought in 2015 and don't really see any reason for us to upgrade any time soon. Performance is fine even for the streaming apps and it's not as fast as the Bolt (yes it takes a while to launch Amazon or Hulu or Netflix but not enough to drive me to either purchase a new TiVo or even switch to the Amazon FireTV that we have). Before the Roamio, we were using 2 S3 OLED's that we bought Dec 2006/Jan 2007 so we were still using those 8 1/2 years later (and the primary drivers to upgrade was Comcast moving to MPEG4 and the increasing cost of TiVo lifetime at the time).

TiVo (really Arris for the hardware) is limited by the DVR chipsets that are being produced if they want to make a product that can be sold at a "reasonable" price.

Scott


----------



## Joe3

HerronScott said:


> What's forcing you to buy a newer TiVo?
> TiVo (really Arris for the hardware) is limited by the DVR chipsets that are being produced if they want to make a product that can be sold at a "reasonable" price. Scott


Limited chipsets.

The limited specs shorten the longevity of the product, makes it more difficult to fix bugs and do updates. The product sold at a "reasonable" price is relative to the quality and longevity of that product. Appeasing those sitting in cheap seats continues to artificially shorten the life of TiVo by constantly having to use weak components.

P.S. You and I can only wish that TiVo will return to the production quality that once gave us the longevity of the S3 OLEDs.


----------



## eman926

Is the new TiVo Edge for antenna ATSC 3.0 compliant?


----------



## foghorn2

Lots of great discussion, I agree with Joe that the Tivo's have selling substandard spec'd boxes. 
And the TiVo Edge better have ATSC 3.0 internally. If they can make a dongle, they can integrate that internally, or at least a closeable slot on the bottom for a removable, upgradable usb tuner.


----------



## tapokata

eman926 said:


> Is the new TiVo Edge for antenna ATSC 3.0 compliant?


There's been no confirmation that it is, or will be. Given that first generation 3.0 tuners have only just appeared in the market (at the development level, not retail) back in April, I think it's a doubtful proposition. Even in markets where 3.0 is first deployed, those stations making the change are still required to simulcast a 1.0 signal for five years after the deployment is completed- well past the typical product life cycle of a consumer DVR.

And given that there's no FCC mandate to make the conversion, it's still not settled hash that ATSC will be widely adopted... if it is at all. We've seen how that's played out in terrestrial radio broadcasting, with the consumer acceptance/use of HD Radio. ATSC 3.0 is a hammer looking for a nail.


----------



## randian

tapokata said:


> And given that there's no FCC mandate to make the conversion, it's still not settled hash that ATSC will be widely adopted... if it is at all. We've seen how that's played out in terrestrial radio broadcasting, with the consumer acceptance/use of HD Radio.


HD Radio would have had far better acceptance if broadcasters weren't allowed to use such low power that HD radio is all but useless. My experience of HD radio in a car was that I would encounter frequent no-radio zones that would lose signal lock for 5-10 seconds, then reacquire signal lock, then lose it again 30 seconds later, ad infinitum. No high-rise buildings in sight. I liked the clarity, when it worked, but it was so bad I stopped bothering.


----------



## tapokata

Larger issue was the ibiquiti patent wall, which required both the broadcaster AND the radio manufacturer to license the technology. That quickly stifled the widespread adoption. It's quite possible that will happen once again, as a Sinclair subsidiary owns all of the patents for the bootstrap technology required by the FCC to use ATSC 3.0 (no small wonder that Sinclair has been beating the 3.0 drum the loudest).

As for improved sound quality, HD radio offered that, but it was typically found in automobile radios, where the listener has been conditioned to enjoy the acoustic profile of a rolling beer can. It's a really hard sell, especially if the signal continually lost lock, as you experienced, and dropped back to analog.


----------



## d_anders

eman926 said:


> Is the new TiVo Edge for antenna ATSC 3.0 compliant?


It's not noted in the FCC specs, but it's kinda a no brainer for them to add it. We will see

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## leiff

I wonder if they'll offer an upgrade path on launch? I'd like to see if this newer TiVo has better success on my long HDMI runs where my bolt introduces Sparkles at the end of an extended run at 1080p 60 fps. It currently works sporadically, occasionally showing a few white sparkles mostly only visible on dark backgrounds. I had a more expensive redmere hdmi cable I bought bought from Monoprice but it fails entirely waste of money


----------



## Davelnlr_

leiff said:


> I wonder if they'll offer an upgrade path on launch? I'd like to see if this newer TiVo has better success on my long HDMI runs where my bolt introduces Sparkles at the end of an extended run at 1080p 60 fps. It currently works sporadically, occasionally showing a few white sparkles mostly only visible on dark backgrounds. I had a more expensive redmere hdmi cable I bought bought from Monoprice but it fails entirely waste of money


Have you tried an HDMI switch in the middle?


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> Time doesn't stand still. And reasons for concern today about this company's future have changed to something substantial and measurable in the last few years.


I agree with you--there are real issues for concern, on numerous fronts (Rovi, er, management; changing tech.; older patents ending; etc.). And I hope that TiVo (or whom/whatever) can manage them. But there also were real substantial and measurable reasons for concern 20 years ago, including a small upstart's very survival--I was one of those people concerned about buying Lifetime for my Series 2 (and, indeed, in buying a TiVo box to begin with), wondering if a small company like TiVo, in a new tech. field, would be around after.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> The product sold at a "reasonable" price is relative to the quality and longevity of that product. Appeasing those sitting in cheap seats continues to artificially shorten the life of TiVo by constantly having to use weak components.
> 
> P.S. You and I can only wish that TiVo will return to the production quality that once gave us the longevity of the S3 OLEDs.


I understand your point, and sometimes yes, but sometimes no--the marvel of tech. is how the price so often comes down, and often so quickly, without this signifying a lessening of quality.


tarheelblue32 said:


> But how fast of a processor does a DVR really need to have? The Bolt seems plenty fast to me. *And are you willing to spend $700+monthly service fees on a DVR with really great specs? *Because I doubt there are very many people that would.


I would, for a quality product that I use a lot and get a great deal of enjoyment from (there is a reason why Breville $250 toaster ovens are successful--it's "just" a toaster oven, for heaven's sake)--but I recognize that I'm likely the exception and likely not representative of the majority of the buying public here.


----------



## mschnebly

Joe3 said:


> Limited chipsets.
> 
> The limited specs shorten the longevity of the product, makes it more difficult to fix bugs and do updates. The product sold at a "reasonable" price is relative to the quality and longevity of that product. Appeasing those sitting in cheap seats continues to artificially shorten the life of TiVo by constantly having to use weak components.
> 
> P.S. You and I can only wish that TiVo will return to the production quality that once gave us the longevity of the S3 OLEDs.


You know, you might be the perfect candidate to buy TiVo's hardware part and come out with a high quality high end product. You could go as high quality as you want and leave the "cheap seaters" behind. Market to high end Audio - Video folks.


----------



## HerronScott

Joe3 said:


> Limited chipsets.
> 
> The limited specs shorten the longevity of the product, makes it more difficult to fix bugs and do updates. The product sold at a "reasonable" price is relative to the quality and longevity of that product. Appeasing those sitting in cheap seats continues to artificially shorten the life of TiVo by constantly having to use weak components.
> 
> P.S. You and I can only wish that TiVo will return to the production quality that once gave us the longevity of the S3 OLEDs.


As I indicated, I'm not seeing any issues with our Roamio Pro and certainly expect it to function for us as long as our S3 OLED's did so neither of your reasons for an end user having to upgrade their TiVo would seem to apply (and the Roamio Pro was released in 2013 so we're coming up on 6 years for people that purchased them when first released like we did with the S3 OLED).

So what do you expect TiVo to do if you feel the available DVR chipsets are limited?

Scott


----------



## fyodor

Beyond the question of the affiliates setting up 4K equipment, have any of the networks that are available OTA announced plans for 4K programming. I know that there have been random events, but I mean regular TV programming. I'm legitimately curious-I haven't seen any references to it.



foghorn2 said:


> Lots of great discussion, I agree with Joe that the Tivo's have selling substandard spec'd boxes.
> And the TiVo Edge better have ATSC 3.0 internally. If they can make a dongle, they can integrate that internally, or at least a closeable slot on the bottom for a removable, upgradable usb tuner.


----------



## JoeKustra

fyodor said:


> Beyond the question of the affiliates setting up 4K equipment, have any of the networks that are available OTA announced plans for 4K programming. I know that there have been random events, but I mean regular TV programming. I'm legitimately curious-I haven't seen any references to it.


Speaking of curiosity. My broadcast stations of CBS and NBC had some really high quality picture quality when they went digital in 2009. Neither had any subchannels and over a 17Mbps bit rate. Now they both have four sub-channels and have a rate about 10Mbps. Will this still be an issue with 4k or ATSC 3.0? I still have 1080p since my TV works well and I don't know why I should get a 4k HDR set (and new AVR) when the picture quality is so poor.


----------



## slowbiscuit

HerronScott said:


> What's forcing you to buy a newer TiVo? We have no problem with the Roamio Pro that we bought in 2015 and don't really see any reason for us to upgrade any time soon. Performance is fine even for the streaming apps and it's not as fast as the Bolt (yes it takes a while to launch Amazon or Hulu or Netflix but not enough to drive me to either purchase a new TiVo or even switch to the Amazon FireTV that we have). Before the Roamio, we were using 2 S3 OLED's that we bought Dec 2006/Jan 2007 so we were still using those 8 1/2 years later (and the primary drivers to upgrade was Comcast moving to MPEG4 and the increasing cost of TiVo lifetime at the time).


Exactly. I will keep my Roamio + Minis until cards go away because I value them for DVR features only, and they are great for that. Apps are run on my LG OLED and Rokus because they run much better there, and it's no big deal to switch inputs (my wife doesn't mind either).

Tivo has given DVR-only users like me no particular reason to upgrade from the Roamio, it's plenty fast enough for that.


----------



## NashGuy

fyodor said:


> Beyond the question of the affiliates setting up 4K equipment, have any of the networks that are available OTA announced plans for 4K programming. I know that there have been random events, but I mean regular TV programming. I'm legitimately curious-I haven't seen any references to it.


For the past few years, I've been following the development of ATSC 3.0, the new OTA standard that would allow stations to broadcast in 4K and HDR. But unless we just want to watch the local news in 4K HDR, we'll need the major networks -- ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS, The CW -- to get on board and produce content in 4K HDR for their local affiliates to broadcast. There hasn't been very much to leak out but all of the info I've gleaned indicates that the plan by the networks and their affiliates will be to use 1080p HDR as their high-end format for ATSC 3.0. They believe that high-quality HD, when upscaled by 4K TVs, will be good enough; they simply don't think there's enough difference between 1080p HDR and true 4K HDR to justify using about 3 times as much bandwidth on the latter vs. the former.

When ATSC 3.0 launches late this year or early next, nearly all of the stations will be sharing towers. When two stations share a single tower, they're sharing the total bandwidth of its broadcast frequency. There simply won't be enough bandwidth available for both stations to do 4K at the same time on that same tower. If ATSC 3.0 is successful and the entire OTA broadcast system eventually switches to it (killing ATSC 1.0) by the mid/late 2020s, then stations might no longer be sharing towers. So at that point, 4K HDR on OTA TV could be the norm for the major networks.

But that doesn't mean that we won't see 4K HDR from ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox soon. In fact, I watched a bit of the Women's World Cup from Fox in 4K this past weekend. But it wasn't via an OTA signal from my local Fox affiliate. It was via streaming through Fox's own app. That's really the way forward for 4K and 4K HDR. We'll see ABC put their shows in 4K HDR on Hulu. Maybe NBC will too. (They'll definitely do so on Comcast cable plus through the forthcoming NBCU streaming service.) CBS will put their shows on CBS All Access in 4K HDR. And they'll all likely make those 4K HDR versions of their primetime content available through cable providers' VOD platforms too, for those cable subscribers with cable boxes that can support it.


----------



## chicagobrownblue

Joe3 said:


> Limited chipsets.
> 
> The limited specs shorten the longevity of the product, makes it more difficult to fix bugs and do updates.


Actually it's the opposite with Tivo software. The HD UI was problematic when the Premiere initially came out. So much so I switched back to the SD UI. The HD UI now works well on my friend's Premiere. No update to the chipsets on the Premiere, just better software.

When I got my Roamio I desperately searched to switch back to the SD UI. No option. But, lo and behold the HD UI worked well on the Roamio. So, better chipset on the Roamio, yes, better software, yes. Which is more important? Better software.

My Roamio works so well for me that it is on a battery backup and a coax surge suppressor. Sort of like _Voyager 6_, on Star Trek: The Motion Picture.


----------



## leiff

JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of curiosity. My broadcast stations of CBS and NBC had some really high quality picture quality when they went digital in 2009. Neither had any subchannels and over a 17Mbps bit rate. Now they both have four sub-channels and have a rate about 10Mbps. Will this still be an issue with 4k or ATSC 3.0? I still have 1080p since my TV works well and I don't know why I should get a 4k HDR set (and new AVR) when the picture quality is so poor.


Fine if that's your only Source material. Netflix Dolby Vision looks good though if you have good internet. Which also brings a problem if you watch alot if your internet provider has data cap limits


----------



## leiff

slowbiscuit said:


> Exactly. I will keep my Roamio + Minis until cards go away because I value them for DVR features only, and they are great for that. Apps are run on my LG OLED and Rokus because they run much better there, and it's no big deal to switch inputs (my wife doesn't mind either).
> 
> Tivo has given DVR-only users like me no particular reason to upgrade from the Roamio, it's plenty fast enough for that.


I agree LG OLED apps that work great. I use my C9 LG OLED internal apps for Netflix and Amazon. Unfortunately since I have last year's LG OLED, it doesnt support EArc, so I had to buy an Nvidia Shield to be able to play back my 4K movie collection with lossless audio. But I suspect with the newer earc feature LG OLEDs so you can just use the TV's internal Plex app and not have to buy additional devices .


----------



## fyodor

Well, heavily compressed 4K HDR is still better than heavily compressed 1080p. The 4K/HDR Netflix/Amazon streams are still much better quality than their 1080p streams, even as the 1080p streams are nowhere near the upper limits of the format.



JoeKustra said:


> Speaking of curiosity. My broadcast stations of CBS and NBC had some really high quality picture quality when they went digital in 2009. Neither had any subchannels and over a 17Mbps bit rate. Now they both have four sub-channels and have a rate about 10Mbps. Will this still be an issue with 4k or ATSC 3.0? I still have 1080p since my TV works well and I don't know why I should get a 4k HDR set (and new AVR) when the picture quality is so poor.


----------



## fyodor

Yeah, I agree that we'll probably see it in streaming content first, especially since the delivery mechanism is already there.



NashGuy said:


> For the past few years, I've been following the development of ATSC 3.0, the new OTA standard that would allow stations to broadcast in 4K and HDR. But unless we just want to watch the local news in 4K HDR, we'll need the major networks -- ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS, The CW -- to get on board and produce content in 4K HDR for their local affiliates to broadcast. There hasn't been very much to leak out but all of the info I've gleaned indicates that the plan by the networks and their affiliates will be to use 1080p HDR as their high-end format for ATSC 3.0. They believe that high-quality HD, when upscaled by 4K TVs, will be good enough; they simply don't think there's enough difference between 1080p HDR and true 4K HDR to justify using about 3 times as much bandwidth on the latter vs. the former.
> 
> When ATSC 3.0 launches late this year or early next, nearly all of the stations will be sharing towers. When two stations share a single tower, they're sharing the total bandwidth of its broadcast frequency. There simply won't be enough bandwidth available for both stations to do 4K at the same time on that same tower. If ATSC 3.0 is successful and the entire OTA broadcast system eventually switches to it (killing ATSC 1.0) by the mid/late 2020s, then stations might no longer be sharing towers. So at that point, 4K HDR on OTA TV could be the norm for the major networks.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that we won't see 4K HDR from ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox soon. In fact, I watched a bit of the Women's World Cup from Fox in 4K this past weekend. But it wasn't via an OTA signal from my local Fox affiliate. It was via streaming through Fox's own app. That's really the way forward for 4K and 4K HDR. We'll see ABC put their shows in 4K HDR on Hulu. Maybe NBC will too. (They'll definitely do so on Comcast cable plus through the forthcoming NBCU streaming service.) CBS will put their shows on CBS All Access in 4K HDR. And they'll all likely make those 4K HDR versions of their primetime content available through cable providers' VOD platforms too, for those cable subscribers with cable boxes that can support it.


----------



## Dan203

ATSC 3.0 is only 36Mbps theoretical max. HEVC is efficient, but 4K has 8x as many pixels as 1080i. So even if it's 4x efficient as MPEG-2 it'll still require 2x as much bandwidth to transmit. So if you figure the average MPEG-2 1080i broadcast is 12-15Mbps that means a 4K broadcast would need to be 24-30Mbps. That's essentially the entire bandwidth of a single ATSC 3.0 frequency. You might be able to get one 4K channel and a SD simulcast, but that's about it. 

So for these initial tests, where several stations are sharing a single frequency, they'll likely be limited to HD resolution. With HEVC encoding they'll still be 3-4x as efficient as MPEG-2 so maybe they'll use [email protected] instead of 1080i. Even then you'd only need maybe 7-8Mbps so you could easily get 4 channels on a single ATSC 3.0 frequency.


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## longrider

Joe3 said:


> Limited chipsets.
> 
> The limited specs shorten the longevity of the product, makes it more difficult to fix bugs and do updates. The product sold at a "reasonable" price is relative to the quality and longevity of that product. Appeasing those sitting in cheap seats continues to artificially shorten the life of TiVo by constantly having to use weak components.
> 
> P.S. You and I can only wish that TiVo will return to the production quality that once gave us the longevity of the S3 OLEDs.





mschnebly said:


> You know, you might be the perfect candidate to buy TiVo's hardware part and come out with a high quality high end product. You could go as high quality as you want and leave the "cheap seaters" behind. Market to high end Audio - Video folks.


I wouldn't go too far there, just look at Oppo Digital for a case study. Arguably the finest DVD/BluRay/4K players made but when 98% are happy with a $49 player and another 1.5% upgrade to a $99 player that doesn't leave too may customers for the high end company. I am still using my BDP-83 today but I realize I was a very small minority 12 - 15 years ago


----------



## Joe3

HerronScott said:


> So what do you expect TiVo to do if you feel the available DVR chipsets are limited?
> 
> Scott


I expect TiVo to go the way of the dodo bird.


----------



## Joe3

chicagobrownblue said:


> Actually it's the opposite with Tivo software. The HD UI was problematic when the Premiere initially came out. So much so I switched back to the SD UI. The HD UI now works well on my friend's Premiere. No update to the chipsets on the Premiere, just better software.
> 
> When I got my Roamio I desperately searched to switch back to the SD UI. No option. But, lo and behold the HD UI worked well on the Roamio. So, better chipset on the Roamio, yes, better software, yes. Which is more important? Better software.
> 
> My Roamio works so well for me that it is on a battery backup and a coax surge suppressor. Sort of like _Voyager 6_, on Star Trek: The Motion Picture.[/QUO


I would not say one is more important, but both are important for the carbon base units to communicate with TiVo base units without the carbon base units dying of old age waiting for TiVo base units to upgrade.


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## Joe3

longrider said:


> I wouldn't go too far there, just look at Oppo Digital for a case study. Arguably the finest DVD/BluRay/4K players made but when 98% are happy with a $49 player and another 1.5% upgrade to a $99 player that doesn't leave too may customers for the high end company. I am still using my BDP-83 today but I realize I was a very small minority 12 - 15 years ago


I am not talking about the rarified air of high end. Just a few bucks more for better specs to give the software folks much more room to work in to improve the TiVo along the way.


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## d_anders

Davelnlr_ said:


> Have you tried an HDMI switch in the middle?


How long are your runs? I switched to fiber/hdmi cables and can easily handle 50ft now at 4K 60fps HDR

Keep in mind however, the cables are seriously expensive. $150 each

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dadrepus

Diana Collins said:


> Plex have it right: don't worry about cablecards, just merge Live OTA TV (with DVR functionality) into an app you can already load on your Roku, FireTV or AppleTV.


You betcha! Just sold my Premeire so only 2 Bolts in a 3 TV house. Using Silicondust Extend and Plex to watch live TV and recorded TV with automatic commercial removal on a Roku in the basement. Getting a 4th tv (used-donated) for the Gazebo and will be using a Roku stick to send everything i need to it.


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> ATSC 3.0 is only 36Mbps theoretical max. HEVC is efficient, but 4K has 8x as many pixels as 1080i. So even if it's 4x efficient as MPEG-2 it'll still require 2x as much bandwidth to transmit. So if you figure the average MPEG-2 1080i broadcast is 12-15Mbps that means a 4K broadcast would need to be 24-30Mbps. That's essentially the entire bandwidth of a single ATSC 3.0 frequency. You might be able to get one 4K channel and a SD simulcast, but that's about it.
> 
> So for these initial tests, where several stations are sharing a single frequency, they'll likely be limited to HD resolution. With HEVC encoding they'll still be 3-4x as efficient as MPEG-2 so maybe they'll use [email protected] instead of 1080i. Even then you'd only need maybe 7-8Mbps so you could easily get 4 channels on a single ATSC 3.0 frequency.


Figures I've seen suggest live 1080p60 HDR broadcasts in ATSC 3.0 in HEVC at about 6 Mbps. Meanwhile, Comcast just did their first live 4K broadcast (Women's World Cup) in HEVC at 18 Mbps. Add in HDR and maybe it goes to 19 Mbps. Those figures are the lowest I've seen for live 4K bitrates, though. More normal is mid 20s to low 30s.


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## Diana Collins

That 2TB drive will fill up pretty quickly if you record 4K. The Verizon 4K broadcast a few weeks ago was around the same bit rate. So no matter how you get 4K content, current DVRs (and the Edge) aren’t equipped to store it.


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## randian

NashGuy said:


> Figures I've seen suggest live 1080p60 HDR broadcasts in ATSC 3.0 in HEVC at about 6 Mbps. Meanwhile, Comcast just did their first live 4K broadcast (Women's World Cup) in HEVC at 18 Mbps. Add in HDR and maybe it goes to 19 Mbps. Those figures are the lowest I've seen for live 4K bitrates, though. More normal is mid 20s to low 30s.


Of course it's bit-starved, it's Comcast. It's so bad their regular WWC broadcasts look like SD to me.


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## NashGuy

randian said:


> Of course it's bit-starved, it's Comcast. It's so bad their regular WWC broadcasts look like SD to me.


I honestly wonder what percentage of Comcast subscribers with HD service would notice if Comcast replaced all their 720p channels with a widescreen 480i version?


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## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Figures I've seen suggest live 1080p60 HDR broadcasts in ATSC 3.0 in HEVC at about 6 Mbps. Meanwhile, Comcast just did their first live 4K broadcast (Women's World Cup) in HEVC at 18 Mbps. Add in HDR and maybe it goes to 19 Mbps. Those figures are the lowest I've seen for live 4K bitrates, though. More normal is mid 20s to low 30s.


That seems excessively low. Was it 30fps?


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## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> That seems excessively low. Was it 30fps?


The source article I read didn't say but I seriously doubt it. 30fps for sports is bad and very noticeable because movements do not look smooth. All of Comcast's HD feeds are 720p60. I'd definitely bet this was 2160p60.

Comcast Takes First Shot at Live 4K TV | Light Reading

BTW, reports on this forum say that Verizon FiOS's recent 4K sports broadcasts have used bitrates in the low 20s, IIRC. See here.


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## Dan203

Low 20s seem like they might work. 18 seems excessively low though


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## leiff

If the antenna tuner is superior on the edge I might need it because I have fringge reception at best North of San Francisco aiming at Sutro Tower


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## Davelnlr_

NashGuy said:


> I honestly wonder what percentage of Comcast subscribers with HD service would notice if Comcast replaced all their 720p channels with a widescreen 480i version?


I would. I really notice the 720p. Im almost tempted to put the 55" 4K from the bedroom in place of the 65" 4K in the Living room, because at 720p the 65" looks fuzzy. I tried their Roku app, and they CLAIM its 1080i streaming, but it doesnt look any better than cable. It is really a shame everyone is coming out with 4K and now 8K and the delivery is going from 1080i to 720p instead of at least 1080p.


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## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> They believe that high-quality HD, when upscaled by 4K TVs, will be good enough; they simply don't think there's enough difference between 1080p HDR and true 4K HDR to justify using about 3 times as much bandwidth on the latter vs. the former.


If you read between the lines, I think that they are saying that they or their affiliates can make more money by putting up a whole ton of diginets than they can offering their main feed in 4k. This is why I don't think we'll ever see widespread 4k from the networks via OTA. Maybe via cable, but not via OTA.



Dan203 said:


> That's essentially the entire bandwidth of a single ATSC 3.0 frequency. You might be able to get one 4K channel and a SD simulcast, but that's about it.


You're comparing apples to oranges. When MPEG-2 HD first came out, you had to have 19.3mbps to get a really nice looking picture. Today's encoders are doing it with 12mbps, and most channels are broadcasting 8-10mbps with some loss of sharpness and wow factor, but a picture that doesn't look that terrible overall. I think the initial learning curve will go a LOT faster with HEVC. I'd expect live broadcasts of 4k content to drop well below 20mbps, closer to 15mbps within a few years, less than that if they are on a QAM or OTA where there is stat muxing involved.



> So for these initial tests, where several stations are sharing a single frequency, they'll likely be limited to HD resolution. With HEVC encoding they'll still be 3-4x as efficient as MPEG-2 so maybe they'll use [email protected] instead of 1080i. Even then you'd only need maybe 7-8Mbps so you could easily get 4 channels on a single ATSC 3.0 frequency.


Going from 1080i60 to 1080p60 isn't doubling the bandwidth because the deltas between the frames are half as big, so it's a relatively small bump in bandwidth. If it takes someone 7-8mbps to do 1080p60 HEVC, then they're not going to be in their job very long, considering that maybe stations are at 8-9mbps with MPEG-2 1080i60 today. The numbers I've heard put 1080p60 HEVC around 3mbps as part of a stat mux.

Remember that HEVC will degrade quality much more slowly than MPEG-2 and even MPEG-4, and the pool of bandwidth for stat muxing is MUCH larger than with MPEG-2, so the efficiency gains there will be much higher as well. Add that all up, and if there is 35mbps of bandwidth on a transmitter, I'd expect to see a dozen or more HD channels, with a couple at 1080p60 and the rest of 720p60.



NashGuy said:


> I honestly wonder what percentage of Comcast subscribers with HD service would notice if Comcast replaced all their 720p channels with a widescreen 480i version?


 If they had a really good quality 480i feed, probably not too many. That would use almost as much bandwidth as their disaster of an MPEG-4 feed though.



Diana Collins said:


> That 2TB drive will fill up pretty quickly if you record 4K. The Verizon 4K broadcast a few weeks ago was around the same bit rate. So no matter how you get 4K content, current DVRs (and the Edge) aren't equipped to store it.


TiVo Series 3 and Premiere units were recording mostly 15-19mbps MPEG-2 HD when they first came out, so I wouldn't be too concerned about filling up now larger drives on what little 4k content we might have even at 20-25mbps.


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Remember that HEVC will degrade quality much more slowly than MPEG-2 and even MPEG-4, and the pool of bandwidth for stat muxing is MUCH larger than with MPEG-2, so the efficiency gains there will be much higher as well. Add that all up, and if there is 35mbps of bandwidth on a transmitter, I'd expect to see a dozen or more HD channels, with a couple at 1080p60 and the rest of 720p60.


I may be recalling incorrectly (and I'm too lazy on a Saturday night to look it up) but I think that for an ATSC 3.0 station to have a signal strength that covers as much territory as their 1.0 station, the 3.0 signal would be configured so as to have a total bandwidth of only about 26 Mbps, not 35. I definitely know that, as I've always looked at the math, it wouldn't be sufficient to support two concurrent 4K streams unless the broadcaster was willing to trade-off geographic coverage (i.e. signal strength) in lieu of greater bandwidth.

But, yes, I definitely agree that broadcasters believe that they have better ways to monetize their bandwidth than by devoting it all to a 4K stream. Better to run multiple free lower-res streams that can support more ads, or multiple subscription pay TV streams, or just sell that bandwidth for non-TV uses (e.g. IoT bitpooling, nationwide in-car audio+data network to replace Sirius XM, etc.).


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## leiff

Davelnlr_ said:


> I would. I really notice the 720p. Im almost tempted to put the 55" 4K from the bedroom in place of the 65" 4K in the Living room, because at 720p the 65" looks fuzzy. I tried their Roku app, and they CLAIM its 1080i streaming, but it doesnt look any better than cable. It is really a shame everyone is coming out with 4K and now 8K and the delivery is going from 1080i to 720p instead of at least 1080p.


It's the reason I'll be canceling all my cable channels very soon. I'm sure there are more like me I wonder how many? I still have a spare TiVo I take to my parents house and transfer their shows from their TiVo onto my TiVo. I'm able to do this because all our tivo's are on the same account But if Comcast still had high-quality cable I would happily pay for my own subscription.


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## Joe3

Hey, the future does look pretty far away for 4K broadcasting and broadcasters are not likely to fully adopt it and streaming 4K is slow and may never be more than selective. However, it is possible for TiVo to see ahead, if they still can see an opportunity right under there noses.

They could offer a plug n play backwards compatible 4K Blue Ray DVD device that would ask if you would want play the disc or move it to My Shows for later viewing. Now, another word for moving it (brace for the chill) copying it. However, things have changed enough that copying one time, a 4K DVD that you paid almost $30 for to a TiVo that keeps it copy protected should be possible. 

Also, TiVo would have to make storage capacity extension easier for the TiVo itself.

But if you're TiVo caught on the back end of fixing problems that should never have been because you cheated the specs in the box to begin with, well..., not much for doing anything ahead if your fixing behind is there?


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I may be recalling incorrectly (and I'm too lazy on a Saturday night to look it up) but I think that for an ATSC 3.0 station to have a signal strength that covers as much territory as their 1.0 station, the 3.0 signal would be configured so as to have a total bandwidth of only about 26 Mbps, not 35. I definitely know that, as I've always looked at the math, it wouldn't be sufficient to support two concurrent 4K streams unless the broadcaster was willing to trade-off geographic coverage (i.e. signal strength) in lieu of greater bandwidth.


That's quite possible. 26mbps would be a bit too tight for two 4k channels, and that would leave zero room for subchannels anyway.



> But, yes, I definitely agree that broadcasters believe that they have better ways to monetize their bandwidth than by devoting it all to a 4K stream. Better to run multiple free lower-res streams that can support more ads, or multiple subscription pay TV streams, or just sell that bandwidth for non-TV uses (e.g. IoT bitpooling, nationwide in-car audio+data network to replace Sirius XM, etc.).


I think it's going to go to subchannels or the car radio idea is interesting, but that's a drop in the bucket. The problem with radio is that TV stations don't reach the entire CONUS, and you'll find lakes, rivers, and highways with no coverage. The subscription TV idea has been half-baked all long. It doesn't mean that we won't see someone try it, but with streaming, I don't see the point, and the support for it would be a nightmare. If someone does try it, I think it will be a flop. I think OTA will remain free, but will turn into a bunch of channels of mostly junk, with subchannels galore, and variations on the lowest common denominator that the networks are today.


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges. When MPEG-2 HD first came out, you had to have 19.3mbps to get a really nice looking picture. Today's encoders are doing it with 12mbps, and most channels are broadcasting 8-10mbps with some loss of sharpness and wow factor, but a picture that doesn't look that terrible overall. I think the initial learning curve will go a LOT faster with HEVC. I'd expect live broadcasts of 4k content to drop well below 20mbps, closer to 15mbps within a few years, less than that if they are on a QAM or OTA where there is stat muxing involved.


I don't think so. 4k @ 60fps has 8x as many pixels per second as 1080i and 9x 720p. If they mainly use it for sports then there is going to be a lot of motion so they can't drop the bitrate as low as the channels you're comparing too. From what I can find it appears that Comcast is using ~4.5mbs for 720p H.264 ESPN. If you multiply that by 9 and then divide by 2 for HEVC you still end up in the low 20mbs range. I think that's probably a floor for 4k. I just don't think it's possible to get two 4k channels on a single 28-36mbps ATSC 3.0 frequency.

Now there is some theoretical stuff in ATSC 3.0 that claims they could go as high as 57mbps. If they can get to that point then they could easily get two on a single frequency, but the tech isn't there yet. In fact it sounds to me like the current tech might be limited to 28mbs so that means it's even less likely to have multiple 4k channels on a single frequency.


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## wmcbrine

Joe3 said:


> Now, another word for moving it (brace for the chill) copying it. However, things have changed enough that copying one time, a 4K DVD that you paid almost $30 for to a TiVo that keeps it copy protected should be possible.


They can keep you from copying it back off the TiVo, but they couldn't keep you from copying it, and then re-selling the original disc. Unless they asked you to insert the original disc for verification each time (or every tenth time, or once a month, or...) before playing it from the TiVo... which would pretty much defeat the purpose of copying it to the TiVo.


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## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I think it's going to go to subchannels or the car radio idea is interesting, but that's a drop in the bucket. The problem with radio is that TV stations don't reach the entire CONUS, and you'll find lakes, rivers, and highways with no coverage.


Eh, I'm just repeating an idea that someone from (IIRC) Sinclair mentioned in an interview once. Idea would be for lots of station groups to cooperate on this as a joint business venture, cut out a bit of the signal from all those towers across the country (which is possible with ATSC 3.0) and set the parameters of the signal to max out coverage distance but minimize bandwidth. The bandwidth would still be great enough to easily support high-quality audio, plus maybe on-screen stationary text and graphics, etc. Each station frequency across the nation (e.g. VHF 8, 9, 10...UHF 13, 14...27) would uniformly carry a different music format, hopefully with the signal footprint from one tower bleeding over into the footprint of the next, for seamless coverage as you drive down the interstate from one metro area to another. (Low-power repeater towers could be used as well.) Remember that signals bleeding into each other from different directions is a good thing with ATSC 3.0; there's no such thing as multipath interference as with 1.0. Would such a system reach everywhere across the CONUS? No. But then it wouldn't have to in order to be successful. That's not the #1 selling point of satellite radio. As long as it covered where 80% of the population is 99% of the time, it would probably have a big enough target audience to be potentially successful.

All that said, XM and Sirius could not both survive competing against one another, FM radio is slowly dying, and nearly everyone is using Spotify, Apple Music and/or Pandora if they have an internet connection. So the big problem with such a business venture probably isn't the technical feasibility but rather the market feasibility.



Bigg said:


> The subscription TV idea has been half-baked all long. It doesn't mean that we won't see someone try it, but with streaming, I don't see the point, and the support for it would be a nightmare. If someone does try it, I think it will be a flop. I think OTA will remain free, but will turn into a bunch of channels of mostly junk, with subchannels galore, and variations on the lowest common denominator that the networks are today.


Yeah, I agree. Sinclair has hinted that they have some kind of non-TV idea(s) up their sleeve as to how to monetize their 3.0 bandwidth. I'm not sure what it is but I definitely expect that they'll try it. I also expect such a move (particularly given the animosity that already exists on the left toward Sinclair) to raise political questions around how, exactly, the FCC should be allowing broadcasters to use the public spectrum that they're being licensed with 3.0.


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## tapokata

I could care less about Sinclair's politics.

That said, Sinclair's subsidiary One Media, convinced the FCC to adopt a technical patent owned by Sinclair as part of the ATSC 3.0 Standard, and described in part A/321. This is the System Discovery and Signaling standard, or the "bootstrap" that is required for any ATSC receiver to recognize and decode an ATSC 3.0 signal. Not only did the FCC make he use of this technology MANDATORY, they made no provision that any licensing of this technology should be done in a Reasonable and Non-discriminatory manner- which was the case when FM radios was brought about, or with the licensing of MPEG-2 (before those patents expired in 2018) in ATSC 1.0 signals.

Essentially, any consumer receiver manufacturer will be required to pay Sinclair a licensing fee to produce an ATSC 3.0 tuner. Those costs won't be absorbed by the set manufacturer- they're going to be marked up and passed along to the consumer. Cable systems and OTT providers such as Sling, Hulu, etc will have to license this technology from Sinclair in order to carry ATSC 3.0 programming (which is another reason why the non-sinclair networks are reluctant to shift to 4K/ATSC 3.0, as it raises the costs for their affiliates). If local broadcasters decline to adopt the voluntary ATSC 3.0 standard, Sinclair can simply demand the adoption and conversion as part of their carriage rights agreement for their content.

This is a similar model that Ibiquity (an intellectual property company now owned by DTS) utilizes for HD Radio. IBOC's technology is the only one approved for use by the FCC for digital radio broadcasts in the US.

Sinclair's going to monetize ATSC 3.0 all right, and it's not going to be subtle.


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## Joe3

wmcbrine said:


> They can keep you from copying it back off the TiVo, but they couldn't keep you from copying it, and then re-selling the original disc. Unless they asked you to insert the original disc for verification each time (or every tenth time, or once a month, or...) before playing it from the TiVo... which would pretty much defeat the purpose of copying it to the TiVo.


Thought about that too. Make the verification go the other way. The 4K disc gets a stamp/cypher rotating keys that nails it to that particular device once played/transferred to TiVo My Shows.


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## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> I could care less about Sinclair's politics.
> 
> That said, Sinclair's subsidiary One Media, convinced the FCC to adopt a technical patent owned by Sinclair as part of the ATSC 3.0 Standard, and described in part A/321. This is the System Discovery and Signaling standard, or the "bootstrap" that is required for any ATSC receiver to recognize and decode an ATSC 3.0 signal. Not only did the FCC make he use of this technology MANDATORY, they made no provision that any licensing of this technology should be done in a Reasonable and Non-discriminatory manner- which was the case when FM radios was brought about, or with the licensing of MPEG-2 (before those patents expired in 2018) in ATSC 1.0 signals.
> 
> Essentially, any consumer receiver manufacturer will be required to pay Sinclair a licensing fee to produce an ATSC 3.0 tuner. Those costs won't be absorbed by the set manufacturer- they're going to be marked up and passed along to the consumer. Cable systems and OTT providers such as Sling, Hulu, etc will have to license this technology from Sinclair in order to carry ATSC 3.0 programming (which is another reason why the non-sinclair networks are reluctant to shift to 4K/ATSC 3.0, as it raises the costs for their affiliates). If local broadcasters decline to adopt the voluntary ATSC 3.0 standard, Sinclair can simply demand the adoption and conversion as part of their carriage rights agreement for their content.
> 
> This is a similar model that Ibiquity (an intellectual property company now owned by DTS) utilizes for HD Radio. IBOC's technology is the only one approved for use by the FCC for digital radio broadcasts in the US.
> 
> Sinclair's going to monetize ATSC 3.0 all right, and it's not going to be subtle.


I was following you until you got to this line:

_If local broadcasters decline to adopt the voluntary ATSC 3.0 standard, Sinclair can simply demand the adoption and conversion as part of their carriage rights agreement for their content._

Um, what do you mean here? Sinclair OWNS a big group of local broadcast stations across the country. So as far as those stations go, they'll convert to ATSC 3.0 if and when Sinclair directs them to. No choice in the matter, they're just part of Sinclair.

But beyond that, where does Sinclair have leverage over broadcast stations that they DON'T OWN to try and force them to adopt ATSC 3.0? Sinclair does not own a network like ABC or Fox and Sinclair doesn't really have any worthwhile content that they license to other stations either. So what are these content carriage rights agreements that you're talking about? (Yes, I know that Sinclair is in the process of potentially acquiring a slew of regional sports networks but those are distributed as cable channels, not as national broadcast networks with local affiliates.)


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## tapokata

Comet!, Charge!, TBD, and Stadium are owned by Sinclair. For local broadcasters without access to the Weigel umbrella (MeTV!, H&I, etc), it’s a content source for the sub-channels.


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## NashGuy

tapokata said:


> Comet!, Charge!, TBD, and Stadium are owned by Sinclair. For local broadcasters without access to the Weigel umbrella (MeTV!, H&I, etc), it's a content source for the sub-channels.


Oh, trust me, no one much cares about those diginets. In fact, Sinclair streams them for free online. (Check out their STIRR app.) Sinclair's diginets are basically just fodder for their own broadcast stations. There are lots of other (more popular) diginets out there for non-Sinclair broadcasters to stick on their subchannels: COZI, Antenna TV, Escape, Grit, This!, Laff, etc. Sinclair has no content leverage to use against other broadcasters to try and get them to adopt ATSC 3.0.

Other than that, though, interesting info in your post above. Sinclair is definitely the biggest industry backer of ATSC 3.0 and, as you point out, they're very interested in seeing the industry adopt it because they stand to make money on the patents they hold.

The more I've learned about ATSC 3.0 and the broadcast industry generally over the past few years, the less I tend to think that's it's going to end up supplanting ATSC 1.0 and being broadly adopted. Everything is just moving to streaming. The big content/network owners -- Disney/ABC, Comcast/NBC, CBS -- are positioned to profit from the shift to streaming. Why do they want to help enrich Sinclair (and other local broadcasters) rather than themselves?


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## tapokata

I am with you that I don’t think the adoption of this will be widespread outside of sinclair owned stations. The shared frequency lighthouse cooperative concept for maintaining 1.0 feeds is also lunacy. 

I live in a major market area where none of the major local broadcasters are owned by Sinclair (Hearst, Tegna, CBS O-a-O, Tribune O-a-O, Ion O-a-O, UniMas O-a-O). It will be very interesting to see if there’s a rush to adoption in the coming years.


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## randian

Sinclair is making a classic mistake, they should have learned from Sun Microsystems. Back in the day they developed NeWS, an advanced windowing system. The problem was, they wanted royalties. Nobody adopted it. They learned from that, and their next two big things, Java and NFS, were royalty free and earned widespread adoption.

Sinclair’s stance guarantees not only will other broadcasters not use ATSC 3.0, display manufacturers won’t either, which renders their own use of it moot.


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## NashGuy

randian said:


> Sinclair is making a classic mistake, they should have learned from Sun Microsystems. Back in the day they developed NeWS, an advanced windowing system. The problem was, they wanted royalties. Nobody adopted it. They learned from that, and their next two big things, Java and NFS, were royalty free and earned widespread adoption.
> 
> Sinclair's stance guarantees not only will other broadcasters not use ATSC 3.0, display manufacturers won't either, which renders their own use of it moot.


Well, before we totally write off ATSC 3.0, we should consider that Nexstar and several other big broadcast owner groups have formed a coalition called PEARL to work together to develop deployment plans for ATSC 3.0. I really don't think it's just going to be Sinclair that starts down the 3.0 path, although Sinclair will be the most aggressive. I think everyone else will take it a bit slower and try to see how the economics unfold.


----------



## Dan203

There is almost zero chance the Edge will have ATSC 3.0 so I'm not sure why discussion of ATSC 3.0 is dominating this thread.


----------



## JoeKustra

Dan203 said:


> There is almost zero chance the Edge will have ATSC 3.0 so I'm not sure why discussion of ATSC 3.0 is dominating this thread.


See: TiVo Edge (Series 7 DVR for Cable)

It's like: TiVo has all the patents on DVR use, so nobody will make a DVR without paying TiVo.


----------



## Dan203

ATSC 3.0 is too new. If the Edge is about to be released then that means TiVo has been working on it for at least a year. There is very little chance it will be ATSC 3.0 so I'm not sure why the conversation for the last 2+ pages has been about ATSC 3.0


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> I don't think so. 4k @ 60fps has 8x as many pixels per second as 1080i and 9x 720p. If they mainly use it for sports then there is going to be a lot of motion so they can't drop the bitrate as low as the channels you're comparing too. From what I can find it appears that Comcast is using ~4.5mbs for 720p H.264 ESPN. If you multiply that by 9 and then divide by 2 for HEVC you still end up in the low 20mbs range. I think that's probably a floor for 4k. I just don't think it's possible to get two 4k channels on a single 28-36mbps ATSC 3.0 frequency.


I don't think anyone is going to want to put two 4k channels on a single ATSC 3.0 transmitter, but I think it's possible. You're discounting the fact that with 60p the frame deltas are smaller than on 60i/30p. There is also some efficiency gain in the codec as you go to higher and higher resolutions since the deltas across the frame are smaller too. I'm not saying it would look absolutely stunning, but I think it would be perfectly watchable, unlike Comcast's mess of MPEG-4. There is some loss of stat mux efficiency in only having two channels, however, so that would be working against you, versus the numbers for HD channels on 3.0 where you've got 8 or 10 or more channels to stat mux, giving a huge efficiency gain.

Overall, I think the business case is going to be more of an impediment than the encoding technology.



wmcbrine said:


> They can keep you from copying it back off the TiVo, but they couldn't keep you from copying it, and then re-selling the original disc. Unless they asked you to insert the original disc for verification each time (or every tenth time, or once a month, or...) before playing it from the TiVo... which would pretty much defeat the purpose of copying it to the TiVo.


Or had a disc changer, and now you've re-created the old Kaleidescape system that they moved away from for a reason... it's a kludgy mess compared to digital downloads of the entire disc like they do with their new Strato lineup.



NashGuy said:


> Would such a system reach everywhere across the CONUS? No. But then it wouldn't have to in order to be successful. That's not the #1 selling point of satellite radio.


I'm skeptical. Satellite radio actually has insane adoption numbers for what it is, but where satellite shines and has an advantage over streaming is on cars, trucks, RVs, and boats that regularly go where there is poor or no cell service, and those places are unlikely to have much in the way of terrestrial TV reception.



tapokata said:


> I could care less about Sinclair's politics.


You should. They are pretty scary since they are very stealthy. Everyone knows Fox News is a bunch of right-wing nuts spewing garbage, but most people don't even know who owns their local stations, and end up watching right-wing propaganda without even knowing what it is or where it is coming from.



NashGuy said:


> The more I've learned about ATSC 3.0 and the broadcast industry generally over the past few years, the less I tend to think that's it's going to end up supplanting ATSC 1.0 and being broadly adopted.


The first problem is, what's the business case? Does consolidating smaller market transmitters and adding a bunch of diginets justify billions of dollars to replace transmitters and do this whole transition when it's going to give more people access to free OTA reception instead of paying the broadcasters exorbitant retrans fees like they do now. Seems like a loser to me.


----------



## Bigg

I'd add on the satellite radio thing that cell phone coverage is actually going to get worse over the next few years due to the shutdown of 3G networks. These aren't particularly useful for streaming audio at this point, but they certainly aren't getting better. The carriers are all focused on urban/suburban and not raw land area coverage with steel in the air. It's an opening for potential LEO voice/data services, as well as satellite radio.

EDIT: "not raw land area coverage" not "now raw land area coverage".


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> I'd add on the satellite radio thing that cell phone coverage is actually going to get worse over the next few years due to the shutdown of 3G networks. These aren't particularly useful for streaming audio at this point, but they certainly aren't getting better. The carriers are all focused on urban/suburban and now raw land area coverage with steel in the air. It's an opening for potential LEO voice/data services, as well as satellite radio.


I know I'm the one who brought up the whole "ATSC 3.0-competitor-to-satellite-radio" but, honestly, does anyone under 45 subscribe to Sirius XM? And isn't a big slice of the folks (at any age) who do subscribe doing it so that they can listen to Howard Stern or other exclusive personalities? I've listened to the free previews in my car and, frankly, the audio quality for music kinda sucks. It's thin and tinny. Free streaming Pandora via cellular on my phone to the car via Bluetooth sounds significantly better to me.


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## tarheelblue32

NashGuy said:


> I've listened to the free previews in my car and, frankly, the audio quality for music kinda sucks. It's thin and tinny.


It doesn't have to be that way. Satellite radio audio quality sucks for the same reason that Comcast video quality sucks...because they over-compress the stream to try to squeeze more channels into their limited bandwidth.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I know I'm the one who brought up the whole "ATSC 3.0-competitor-to-satellite-radio" but, honestly, does anyone under 45 subscribe to Sirius XM? And isn't a big slice of the folks (at any age) who do subscribe doing it so that they can listen to Howard Stern or other exclusive personalities? I've listened to the free previews in my car and, frankly, the audio quality for music kinda sucks. It's thin and tinny. Free streaming Pandora via cellular on my phone to the car via Bluetooth sounds significantly better to me.


That's a good question. Their demographic probably skews older, but I'm not sure how extreme it is. Yes, the audio quality does suck, it's way over-compressed and tinny. I actually think analog FM sounds better. I'd imagine some may also be subscribing for news channels or live sports as well, as they have a pretty good assortment of all of that.


----------



## Series3Sub

krkaufman said:


> Understood, but $5 savings? (Minus the additional support hassles.)


I get I get your point, and you're right, but we have to consider how these companies try to squeeze blood from a penny. Another thing to consider is that the cost scales up once you start multiplying it by how many thousands or ten thousands of boxes, then it starts to look like they are saving money.

However I suspect we are in agreement that for every feature TiVo decides to cut from the DVR makes that TiVo a diminished product however slightly or greatly, and with enough cuts of features it kind of stops being a TiVo, which is supposed to be a sophisticated, feature rich DVR. But this kind of penny-pinching probably indicates the state at which TiVo's retail DVR businesses in.

I'll finish by saying that if the reports are accurate that tivo's new Edge box will be offered in a two tuner form in addition to more tuners for sister model, that is not a proper TiVo the modern era. I guess we could have all saved our series 1 2 and 3 and not bother trading up all those years. Now, it's odd that TiVo may be making a DVR with such two tuna limitations as the old Channel Master and whatever else out there for OTA _in the past._ I think Four tiners should be the minimum, at least some chips support that natively. TiVo is probably trying to bring the price of the DVR down as low as they can and apparently going backwards to two tuners may help with that. But such cuts with limitations like a two tuner product begins to make Amazon's recast more appealing, and I fully expect a second version of the Recast to be much much better than the first, at least that's been the history at Amazon with its products, and no additional fees whatsoever.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> That's a good question. Their demographic probably skews older, but I'm not sure how extreme it is. Yes, the audio quality does suck, it's way over-compressed and tinny. I actually think analog FM sounds better. I'd imagine some may also be subscribing for news channels or live sports as well, as they have a pretty good assortment of all of that.


Right. That's basically what I was thinking -- SiriusXM is not mainly about music (which can be found, albeit with ads, on FM, and without them on Spotify) but rather about stuff that consumers are not going to get anywhere else while in the car: Howard Stern, live MSNBC, Fox News, the Today show, live sports and sports talk, stand-up comedy shows, etc. It's about content that's exclusive to their platform (or at least exclusive when it comes to an audio-only on-the-go format). Sure, folks with SiriusXM listen to music too but those stations aren't a content differentiator for them. Increasingly hard to see why anyone would pay JUST for their assortment of overly-compressed ad-free (and weather-free, traffic-free) music stations.


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## Dan203

Bigg said:


> That's a good question. Their demographic probably skews older, but I'm not sure how extreme it is. Yes, the audio quality does suck, it's way over-compressed and tinny. I actually think analog FM sounds better. I'd imagine some may also be subscribing for news channels or live sports as well, as they have a pretty good assortment of all of that.


I subscribe because it's commercial free. I'm not a big music guy, so I don't have a large collection of personal music. And the local stations always seem to be in a massive commercial block when I want to listen. The local station I like also does this thing where from Thanksgiving to New Years they play nothing but xmas music.

I don't notice a huge quality issue. Sounds fine to me in the car and on my shower radio.


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## TonyD79

Exactly. It isn’t really meant to be listened to on a big hi fi system. It is meant to be portable. It sounds fine in a car. And tons of people listen to music on it in the car. Or they wouldn’t have so many music channels.


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## NashGuy

If music is what you're after, Spotify, Apple Music, etc. are just way better solutions (which is why SiriusXM has a tiny fraction of the subs those services do). Better music selection (including individual tracks on-demand, playlists, offline downloads, etc.), way better sound quality, listen on the go or at home, on your phone, on your smart speakers, etc. Car makers are putting those music streaming apps into their infotainment systems too.


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## tim1724

NashGuy said:


> honestly, does anyone under 45 subscribe to Sirius XM?


No one I know does. (I'm 41.) My most recent car came with a six month preview of it. I tried it a few times but never found anything worth listening to. I quickly went back to Apple Music via CarPlay. The only radio I listen to is my local NPR station, KPCC, and when traveling outside of KPCC's broadcasting range I can just listen to it in either Apple Music or KPCC's iOS app.


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## dishrich

I have SXM in 2 cars:
When I bought my 2009 SantaFe, I wisely put lifetime on it; it was the best $460 I've spent, as I STILL have the car & I get *every* channel they offer. As long as I keep this car, I'll still have it, & every year that goes by, it already brings down the per-year cost well below $50.
I also have it on a 2011 Silverado, which I don't drive that much, but ONLY because they sent me a $60/year special offer...$5 a month, which I don't even miss.

So YEA, I'll pay -$60/year for it...but not any more than that! It's ALL depends on your individual priorities...some people spend *WAY* more than that on cigarettes that kill you!!!



NashGuy said:


> If music is what you're after, Spotify, Apple Music, etc. are just way better solutions (which is why SiriusXM has a tiny fraction of the subs those services do). Better music selection (including individual tracks on-demand, playlists, offline downloads, etc.), way better sound quality, listen on the go or at home, on your phone, on your smart speakers, etc. Car makers are putting those music streaming apps into their infotainment systems too.


Yes, & you HAVE to pay for costly cell data, most likely an unlimited pkg, to avoid overages! Show me where I can get unlimited cell data f/$5 a month & I'll get it!
BTW, I'm on Comcast per-gig option on my cell phone, & half the time don't even exceed the (FREE) 100meg data allotment in a month; the other months I never go over a gig...so I sure as hell ain't going to get it just for streaming music in the car, when I get a great selection for $5/month.


----------



## MScottC

dishrich said:


> Yes, & you HAVE to pay for costly cell data, most likely an unlimited pkg, to avoid overages! Show me where I can get unlimited cell data f/$5 a month & I'll get it!
> BTW, I'm on Comcast per-gig option on my cell phone, & half the time don't even exceed the (FREE) 100meg data allotment in a month; the other months I never go over a gig...so I sure as hell ain't going to get it just for streaming music in the car, when I get a great selection for $5/month.


T-Mobile, two lines, unlimited Voice, Texting, and Data; $70/month total with fees and taxes. Yes unlimited everything. Of course it pays to be over 55.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Right. That's basically what I was thinking -- SiriusXM is not mainly about music (which can be found, albeit with ads, on FM, and without them on Spotify) but rather about stuff that consumers are not going to get anywhere else while in the car: Howard Stern, live MSNBC, Fox News, the Today show, live sports and sports talk, stand-up comedy shows, etc.


I suspect there are really two markets here. One is for talk content, the other (with some overlap) is for rural/remote reception, i.e. truckers, boaters, RVers, etc.



TonyD79 said:


> Exactly. It isn't really meant to be listened to on a big hi fi system. It is meant to be portable. It sounds fine in a car. And tons of people listen to music on it in the car. Or they wouldn't have so many music channels.


Apparently they compress differently for the Sirius side versus the XM side, but the Sirius side has now been converted to geosynchronous just like XM always was. Weird stuff. So the quality may be different depending on which system you're on. I think I was on the Sirius side last time I had it, but I'm not totally sure. I can tell you one thing, it was pretty bad. It sounded tinny and it lacked depth or bass at all.



dishrich said:


> Yes, & you HAVE to pay for costly cell data, most likely an unlimited pkg, to avoid overages! Show me where I can get unlimited cell data f/$5 a month & I'll get it!


You can download playlists, but you have to think to do that beforehand. That's another issue with streaming, you have to have service. There are many parts of the US where there is LTE, but it's not consistent enough to stream off of, as it keeps stopping between towers or in dead spots. Even in parts of Connecticut a few miles off of the Acela Corridor, it doesn't work reliably, much less in areas of the country that are actually rural and not suburban/exurban.


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## dishrich

MScottC said:


> T-Mobile, two lines, unlimited Voice, Texting, and Data; $70/month total with fees and taxes. Yes unlimited everything. Of course it pays to be over 55.


And how the HELL does $70/month=$5/month??? Also, keep in mind I ONLY pay $3.30 A MONTH for my Comcast cell phone.
And FWIW, I could already get Comcast unlimited (data) for less than $50/month, 1 phone...but the point is, I have NO need whatsoever for that much data!


----------



## tommage1

dishrich said:


> And how the HELL does $70/month=$5/month??? Also, keep in mind I ONLY pay $3.30 A MONTH for my Comcast cell phone.
> And FWIW, I could already get Comcast unlimited (data) for less than $50/month, 1 phone...but the point is, I have NO need whatsoever for that much data!


Comcast hopes you will have your phone on all the time and be logged into various apps that are constantly running. So you will be using data in the background almost all the time. Obviously you are controlling it well but not everyone does. Even "regular" internet, when you go to a web page now there are ALL KINDS of videos running off to the side. In fact many "stories" you might read, the "stories" are not on one page. In fact many times these "stories" require you to hit "next page" 20,30,40+ times just to get the entire story. And EACH NEW PAGE has LOADS of videos/ads running in the background. Heck by the time I get into 20 or so "next page" clicks my browser sometimes freezes/crashes, VERY annoying. Probably won't affect cost for too many regular internet subscribers as they get 1TB a month or unlimited but my DSL only provides 150GB a month, anything over that gets extra charges. Reading those type of stories ON A PHONE with by the GB data charges could get VERY expensive...............

One tip, when on a phone (and computer but phone especially) make sure you logout of all apps/accounts when you are done. If not you will be being tracked all the time. And sometimes you login to an app with a google/yahoo/msn/facebook etc account. Even if you logout of the APP, you will STILL be logged into google/yahoo/facebook. It is good policy to check your phone and make sure you are logged out of EVERYTHING you are not using at the time........................ If you are logged into ANYTHING pretty much you will be tracked, that's why you can start getting emails from places you've never heard of and once you start getting almost impossible to get rid of, even if you try to unsubscribe they just sell your info to other spam sites.


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## NashGuy

dishrich said:


> And how the HELL does $70/month=$5/month??? Also, keep in mind I ONLY pay $3.30 A MONTH for my Comcast cell phone.
> And FWIW, I could already get Comcast unlimited (data) for less than $50/month, 1 phone...but the point is, I have NO need whatsoever for that much data!


You sound like an old person. Nothing wrong with that. I hope to be one eventually. Just sayin'.


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## aristoBrat

NashGuy said:


> If music is what you're after, Spotify, Apple Music, etc. are just way better solutions (which is why SiriusXM has a tiny fraction of the subs those services do). Better music selection (including individual tracks on-demand, playlists, offline downloads, etc.), way better sound quality, listen on the go or at home, on your phone, on your smart speakers, etc. Car makers are putting those music streaming apps into their infotainment systems too.


All good points. For me, not being able to skip to the next song when something I don't care for starts playing is what drives me the most batty about broadcast music.


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## foghorn2

Just to sound like DAN 203 here

The new Edge is not a music streaming service, so Im wondering what there are so many posts about music streaming services in this thread


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## NashGuy

foghorn2 said:


> Just to sound like DAN 203 here
> 
> The new Edge is not a music streaming service, so Im wondering what there are so many posts about music streaming services in this thread


Ugh. Well, we somehow got off onto ATSC 3.0 (wondering if the Edge would support the forthcoming new OTA standard), which led to how broadcasters might deploy 3.0 for non-TV uses such as a subscription music service that could compete with SiriusXM, and well, here we are. As per usual on page 13 of a thread here at TCF, totally off course!

Oops, I did it again.


----------



## dishrich

NashGuy said:


> You sound like an old person. Nothing wrong with that. I hope to be one eventually. Just sayin'.


Well if you consider a 56 year old - that also got to retire at 53 because he manages money very well - "old", then I take that with the highest compliment  Wait 'til you read this below:



tommage1 said:


> Comcast hopes you will have your phone on all the time and be logged into various apps that are constantly running. So you will be using data in the background almost all the time. Obviously you are controlling it well but not everyone does.


As an "old" person that retired from 30+ years in telecom, I do actually understand all that minutia you just explained. Now that you've done that, let me explain:
- I KEEP the data OFF on my phone probably 98% of the time - & (again) I have NO need for "unlimited data" because...
- We have lots of Comcast Wi-Fi hotspots all over Springfield, that are all FREE to use as a Comcast sub; you can use them ANYWHERE Comcast has them...like when I go to visit friends in Chicago. This is on top of all the non-Comcast hotspots all over the place; Springfield is NOT totally "back-woods".
- I don't do crap like Facebook, Twitter, etc. on my phone; I don't even have their apps loaded & I actually NEVER want to!
- About the only time I watch "videos", is when I download DVR'd shows INTO the phone, off either Tivo or DISH...then I watch them like if I'm traveling on the plane, train, etc. - which does not require ANY data (or Wi-Fi) connectivity.
- When I do need to do something like maps, pull up some info, etc...I pull it up, get what I need, then totally close it; doesn't take a genius to do that.
- I'm sorry to tell you this...but for me, there simply is just NOT that much important or critical stuff, that I have to IMMEDIATELY see/read/act-on, on my phone...it can wait until I can read it on a "computer-sized" screen. I'm simply NOT tethered 24/7 to my phone.



MScottC said:


> T-Mobile, two lines, unlimited Voice, Texting, and Data; $70/month total with fees and taxes. Yes unlimited everything. Of course it pays to be over 55.


Verizon has the same thing in IL (& couple other states) for $80. AND...considering how often I hear friends [email protected]$h & complain about NOT being able to get a TM signal around here, if I was going to do something like this, I'd pay the extra $10 so that I could have phones that actually work most of the time. But...I ONLY need 1 phone as it is...so EITHER of this is a total moot point for me.
55+ Senior Phone Plans
(BTW, you DO know that Comcast is on Verizon's network...  )

_Sorry for my part on the OT rant... _


----------



## Bigg

tommage1 said:


> Comcast hopes you will have your phone on all the time and be logged into various apps that are constantly running. So you will be using data in the background almost all the time. Obviously you are controlling it well but not everyone does. Even "regular" internet, when you go to a web page now there are ALL KINDS of videos running off to the side. In fact many "stories" you might read, the "stories" are not on one page. In fact many times these "stories" require you to hit "next page" 20,30,40+ times just to get the entire story.


Yeah, all that bloat and cruft is why Google Fi isn't very practical anymore, and why the carriers are pushing the UDPs so hard. You can block ads though, or use a browser that blocks ads, and that helps a LOT.

OTOH, apps are just as bad. I have a bunch of apps that I barely ever use that are pulling 50-100MB/mo EACH. It's totally out of hand.


----------



## MScottC

dishrich said:


> And how the HELL does $70/month=$5/month??? Also, keep in mind I ONLY pay $3.30 A MONTH for my Comcast cell phone.
> And FWIW, I could already get Comcast unlimited (data) for less than $50/month, 1 phone...but the point is, I have NO need whatsoever for that much data!


You sound like a "grumpy old man." Lighten up. Geeesh


----------



## dishrich

Then DON'T post sensless crap comparing *$70/month=$5/month* & grumpy old men won't have to call you out on it...GEEESH!!!


----------



## TonyD79

aristoBrat said:


> All good points. For me, not being able to skip to the next song when something I don't care for starts playing is what drives me the most batty about broadcast music.


That's what multiple stations are for. My Sirius XM radio buffers songs in my preset list so it always starts at the beginning of a song when I switch to a preset channel.

As for quality, it is good enough for the car. I can hear a difference from a CD (!) but not from streaming apps or my songs on my usb ripped from CDs. I worry about people listening so intently while they drive that they expect impeccable sound.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> If music is what you're after, Spotify, Apple Music, etc. are just way better solutions (which is why SiriusXM has a tiny fraction of the subs those services do). Better music selection (including individual tracks on-demand, playlists, offline downloads, etc.), way better sound quality, listen on the go or at home, on your phone, on your smart speakers, etc. Car makers are putting those music streaming apps into their infotainment systems too.


Spotify requires data. SiriusXM just needs a clear line of sight to the sky. The SiriusXM radio in my car works in a lot of places where my cell phone does not. Especially in the mountains, which there are a lot of around here.

Different strokes and all that. For me SiriusXM works well, so I subscribe. Just be glad we live in an era where we have so many choices.


----------



## TonyD79

Dan203 said:


> Spotify requires data. SiriusXM just needs a clear line of sight to the sky. The SiriusXM radio in my car works in a lot of places where my cell phone does not. Especially in the mountains, which there are a lot of around here.
> 
> Different strokes and all that. For me SiriusXM works well, so I subscribe. Just be glad we live in an era where we have so many choices.


Bingo.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Spotify requires data. SiriusXM just needs a clear line of sight to the sky. The SiriusXM radio in my car works in a lot of places where my cell phone does not. Especially in the mountains, which there are a lot of around here.
> 
> Different strokes and all that. For me SiriusXM works well, so I subscribe. Just be glad we live in an era where we have so many choices.


Sure, I get that. Just as satellite TV (DBS) will still be needed for some time to serve certain areas without good internet access, so will satellite radio. But both have nowhere to go but down, really. Eventually, 100% of our non-present communication, both mass and personal, will be subsumed by the internet. It's just unavoidable.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Sure, I get that. Just as satellite TV (DBS) will still be needed for some time to serve certain areas without good internet access, so will satellite radio. But both have nowhere to go but down, really. Eventually, 100% of our non-present communication, both mass and personal, will be subsumed by the internet. It's just unavoidable.


Eventually. But until mobile data is ubiquitous it's not going to work well in the car. If you look closely at those mobile coverage maps there are still a TON of little spots that are blank. Those are all dead zones where you can't get cell coverage at all. There are a lot of those around here. Especially when driving over the mountains. My SiriusXM still works fine when driving over the mountains.


----------



## Bigg

dishrich said:


> Then DON'T post sensless crap comparing *$70/month=$5/month* & grumpy old men won't have to call you out on it...GEEESH!!!


I usually don't like posts by grumpy old men, but this one is pretty funny.... and while 100MB is extreme and not feasible for most people, if you use 1-2GB, XFinity Mobile is still a really good deal, and you get Verizon coverage with it as well.



TonyD79 said:


> As for quality, it is good enough for the car. I can hear a difference from a CD (!) but not from streaming apps or my songs on my usb ripped from CDs. I worry about people listening so intently while they drive that they expect impeccable sound.


You may have been on the other system, but when I listed to it, it was AWFUL. Nowhere near the quality of streaming, and I'm pretty sure their bitrates are a tiny fraction of that of streaming, so the quality can't be anywhere close.



Dan203 said:


> Eventually. But until mobile data is ubiquitous it's not going to work well in the car. If you look closely at those mobile coverage maps there are still a TON of little spots that are blank. Those are all dead zones where you can't get cell coverage at all. There are a lot of those around here. Especially when driving over the mountains. My SiriusXM still works fine when driving over the mountains.


And the other issue is that the coverage maps are inaccurate, or misleading. I have found many spots where a phone can't pick up service or bounces between service and no service, but it shows solid service on the map. Meanwhile, a lot of areas that do have service are too weak/patchy to do much of anything. Our wireless networks suck, they all have big holes in them, as well as smaller dead and weak spots.

Satellite radio has a future, at least until streaming via LEO replaces it. Cell phones aren't going to do it, the coverage is just too inconsistent, and is actually going to get worse when 3G is shut down.


----------



## Adam C.

Since we're talking about satellite radio I'll add my 2 cents. When I bought my new car they gave me an entire year of free XM radio. I used it for about a week and then never touched it again. Why? Because it's radio. I have no control over what is airing. Sure I can pick a genre, but what I found is that those stations play the same songs over and over. So even with a price tag of "free" I did not find XM to be a good value. With that said, I subscribe to Google Music and absolutely love it. Especially since I use Android Auto which integrates perfectly in my car. I can simply say "Hey Google" while I'm driving and request virtually any song or album ever made, plus listen to my custom playlists. I can even have Google curate my own radio stations based on genre, artist, etc. This of course works at home too or while I'm out walking with headphones. I only pay for a 5GB cell phone plan and not once have I ever gone over my data limit, nor have I ever lost cell service in any location.


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## Dan203

Adam C. said:


> Since we're talking about satellite radio I'll add my 2 cents. When I bought my new car they gave me an entire year of free XM radio. I used it for about a week and then never touched it again. Why? Because it's radio. I have no control over what is airing. Sure I can pick a genre, but what I found is that those stations play the same songs over and over. So even with a price tag of "free" I did not find XM to be a good value. With that said, I subscribe to Google Music and absolutely love it. Especially since I use Android Auto which integrates perfectly in my car. I can simply say "Hey Google" while I'm driving and request virtually any song or album ever made, plus listen to my custom playlists. I can even have Google curate my own radio stations based on genre, artist, etc. This of course works at home too or while I'm out walking with headphones. I only pay for a 5GB cell phone plan and not once have I ever gone over my data limit, nor have I ever lost cell service in any location.


I guess it's all a matter of taste. I like "radio" specifically because I don't have to control what's airing. I tried Pandora for a while but I found that it kind of wandered from my actual taste and started to play weird stuff I'd never heard before and didn't really like. I'm not a big music guy, but I do have a "taste" and most/all of what they play on the stations I listen to are enjoyable. That's all I care about. (I mainly listen to PopRocks on SiriusXM these days)


----------



## DeltaOne

Dan203 said:


> Different strokes and all that. For me SiriusXM works well, so I subscribe. Just be glad we live in an era where we have so many choices.


We subscribe to a SiriusXM news package. We love having CNN and MSNBC available in the car.

Fun fact...FOX News is not included in the SiriusXM news package!

My old car only has AM and FM. But my smart phone will stream CNN and MSNBC.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Eventually. But until mobile data is ubiquitous it's not going to work well in the car. If you look closely at those mobile coverage maps there are still a TON of little spots that are blank. Those are all dead zones where you can't get cell coverage at all. There are a lot of those around here. Especially when driving over the mountains. My SiriusXM still works fine when driving over the mountains.


Considering where the vast majority of Americans live and commute on a regular basis, those dead zones don't really matter. The streaming music services cache ahead enough of each song so that if your car briefly passes through a dead spot in the city or suburbs, it doesn't typically matter.

I feel like this is heading toward one of those "rural dwellers' lives matter!" confrontations, which I'm not really interested in. Again, I understand that about 20% of Americans live in rural areas and, even as wireless 4G and 5G coverage will continue to expand in the years to come, there will still be a place and need for satellite-based radio. Sounds like you're one of those folks for whom it makes sense.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Considering where the vast majority of Americans live and commute on a regular basis, those dead zones don't really matter. The streaming music services cache ahead enough of each song so that if your car briefly passes through a dead spot in the city or suburbs, it doesn't typically matter.
> 
> I feel like this is heading toward one of those "rural dwellers' lives matter!" confrontations, which I'm not really interested in. Again, I understand that about 20% of Americans live in rural areas and, even as wireless 4G and 5G coverage will continue to expand in the years to come, there will still be a place and need for satellite-based radio. Sounds like you're one of those folks for whom it makes sense.


I wouldn't really consider where I live rural. It's more about the terrain. Out west we have a lot of mountains. It's not all flat like the midwest/east. It creates a lot of dead zones. Maybe 5G will fix that, not sure. I guess we'll find out.


----------



## aaronwt

foghorn2 said:


> 2.5 SeaGate? You are asking for an early death!! These will be disposable boxes, much like a Garrity flashlight. Dead Sea full of TiVos.


I've been running many dozens of Seagate drives for years. They have replaced almost all my WD drives. Now some of the WD drives I've used have had issues. But the dozens of Seagate drives I've used have been rock solid. Heck just last week I bought two dozen 4TB Seagate drives. To replace the 2TB drives in my three in unRAID setups.(I had to get the purchases in before Amazon and Newegg started charging tax in VA. Amazon didn't used to charge tax from 3rd party sellers in VA.)


----------



## Bigg

Adam C. said:


> ...and not once have I ever gone over my data limit, nor have I ever lost cell service in any location.


Um... WHAT?!? Have you never left your own neighborhood? There are dead spots all over the place on every carrier. There are places with no Verizon or AT&T service. There's no way that can be the case.



DeltaOne said:


> We subscribe to a SiriusXM news package. We love having CNN and MSNBC available in the car.
> 
> Fun fact...FOX News is not included in the SiriusXM news package!


As much as that sounds great, it's a bit odd given the geographic distribution and target market of people likely to want satellite radio. I wonder if FNC just played hardball with them, as they charge way more than the others for cable news as well?


----------



## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> Exactly. I will keep my Roamio + Minis until cards go away because I value them for DVR features only, and they are great for that. Apps are run on my LG OLED and Rokus because they run much better there, and it's no big deal to switch inputs (my wife doesn't mind either).
> 
> Tivo has given DVR-only users like me no particular reason to upgrade from the Roamio, it's plenty fast enough for that.


Looking back I still kick myself for buying a bunch of Bolts. I should have just kept my six tuner Roamio Pro with a 5TB hard drive. The one thing I really like about the Bolt is the fast transfer rates to a PC or another Bolt. Up to 500Mb/s transfer rates. My Roamio Basic is to slow with transfers with just a 100BT connection.

Although if TiVo had updated the apps, then maybe things would be different. In 2015 they were pretty much ahead of everyone. But then everyone surpassed them. Now my Bolts are almost the last device I want to use for streaming apps.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> ATSC 3.0 is only 36Mbps theoretical max. HEVC is efficient, but 4K has 8x as many pixels as 1080i. So even if it's 4x efficient as MPEG-2 it'll still require 2x as much bandwidth to transmit. So if you figure the average MPEG-2 1080i broadcast is 12-15Mbps that means a 4K broadcast would need to be 24-30Mbps. That's essentially the entire bandwidth of a single ATSC 3.0 frequency. You might be able to get one 4K channel and a SD simulcast, but that's about it.
> 
> So for these initial tests, where several stations are sharing a single frequency, they'll likely be limited to HD resolution. With HEVC encoding they'll still be 3-4x as efficient as MPEG-2 so maybe they'll use [email protected] instead of 1080i. Even then you'd only need maybe 7-8Mbps so you could easily get 4 channels on a single ATSC 3.0 frequency.


When FIOS broadcast the live NASCAR race in UHD and HLG HDR this past May, they were using around a 23Mb/s bitrate. Which looked to be about on par with a Netflix UHD/HDR title at 15Mb/s.
It makes sense that broadcasters would concentrate on 1080P and HDR. That makes much more sense with the limited bandwidth they have. I just hope with ATSC 3.0 that they dedicate enough bandwidth to make the 1080P broadcast look good. Because right now in my area, the DC area, all the local broadcasters content looks like ass. Since all the broadcasts are bitstarved.

Between OTA and FiOS looking so bad, it's the entire reason I rarely use my TiVos any more. I get much better video quality from the streaming services. And I would have never even considered switching to them if OTA in my area and FiOS still had good picture quality.


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> I know I'm the one who brought up the whole "ATSC 3.0-competitor-to-satellite-radio" but, honestly, does anyone under 45 subscribe to Sirius XM? And isn't a big slice of the folks (at any age) who do subscribe doing it so that they can listen to Howard Stern or other exclusive personalities? I've listened to the free previews in my car and, frankly, the audio quality for music kinda sucks. It's thin and tinny. Free streaming Pandora via cellular on my phone to the car via Bluetooth sounds significantly better to me.


I recently re-subscribed and switched to using the app with Android auto. It sounds much, much better than using any XM radio. When you set it to stream at the highest bitrate. I have been enjoying listening to SiriusXM radio for the past week with the app in my car. It has never sounded so good.(I only listen to music on SirusXM).
Otherwise I stream music from Pandora, Plex, Amazon, and Google in the car.(mostly Pandora and Plex though.)


----------



## aaronwt

NashGuy said:


> Right. That's basically what I was thinking -- SiriusXM is not mainly about music (which can be found, albeit with ads, on FM, and without them on Spotify) but rather about stuff that consumers are not going to get anywhere else while in the car: Howard Stern, live MSNBC, Fox News, the Today show, live sports and sports talk, stand-up comedy shows, etc. It's about content that's exclusive to their platform (or at least exclusive when it comes to an audio-only on-the-go format). Sure, folks with SiriusXM listen to music too but those stations aren't a content differentiator for them. Increasingly hard to see why anyone would pay JUST for their assortment of overly-compressed ad-free (and weather-free, traffic-free) music stations.





dishrich said:


> I have SXM in 2 cars:
> When I bought my 2009 SantaFe, I wisely put lifetime on it; it was the best $460 I've spent, as I STILL have the car & I get *every* channel they offer. As long as I keep this car, I'll still have it, & every year that goes by, it already brings down the per-year cost well below $50.
> I also have it on a 2011 Silverado, which I don't drive that much, but ONLY because they sent me a $60/year special offer...$5 a month, which I don't even miss.
> 
> So YEA, I'll pay -$60/year for it...but not any more than that! It's ALL depends on your individual priorities...some people spend *WAY* more than that on cigarettes that kill you!!!
> 
> Yes, & you HAVE to pay for costly cell data, most likely an unlimited pkg, to avoid overages! Show me where I can get unlimited cell data f/$5 a month & I'll get it!
> BTW, I'm on Comcast per-gig option on my cell phone, & half the time don't even exceed the (FREE) 100meg data allotment in a month; the other months I never go over a gig...so I sure as hell ain't going to get it just for streaming music in the car, when I get a great selection for $5/month.


I only use streaming music services in the car. All are set to the highest bitrate. I only have 15GB each month on Verizon Prepaid. And I listen to music in my car with Android Auto an average of at least one hour a day. I don't come anywhere close to hitting my 15GB limit.
But even if I did , I only pay $27 or less a month for the 15GB plan(with unlimited it would only cost me $39 or less). By getting the Verizon refill pins at 40% off or more(on eBAy). And my Verizon prepaid experience has been identical to my Verizon postpaid experience in the DC area.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Um... WHAT?!? Have you never left your own neighborhood? There are dead spots all over the place on every carrier. There are places with no Verizon or AT&T service. There's no way that can be the case.
> 
> ...


Depends on where you drive. Here in the DC area I don't lose service on Verizon wireless.
I've even been several levels below ground, in a building without a DAS, and still had Verizon service. And last week, when I went to a funeral. 40 or so miles outside of the DC area. I never lost service out there either. And I don't have roaming turned on. I always turn that off on my cell phones.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> I rarely use my TiVos any more.


I actually watch very little recorded content any more. There is just so much stuff to watch on all the services that when I do have time to watch TV there is usually something on one of them I'd rather watch. Honestly if it wasn't for my wife I'd probably cut the cord and just watch streaming stuff.


----------



## jay_man2

aaronwt said:


> Depends on where you drive. Here in the DC area I don't lose service on Verizon wireless.
> I've even been several levels below ground, in a building without a DAS, and still had Verizon service. And last week, when I went to a funeral. 40 or so miles outside of the DC area. I never lost service out there either. And I don't have roaming turned on. I always turn that off on my cell phones.


That hasn't been my experience in the DC area. I'm regularly in areas that get only one bar of LTE, and often revert to 3G service.


----------



## NashGuy

jay_man2 said:


> That hasn't been my experience in the DC area. I'm regularly in areas that get only one bar of LTE, and often revert to 3G service.


But 3G is still typically fast enough to stream music. Apple Music streams in AAC at just 256kbps. That's 1/4 of a Mb.

BTW, if this source is correct, each channel on SiriusXM's satellite feed has only about 48-64kbps of bandwidth in AAC. So 1/5 to 1/4 the bandwidth that Apple Music uses.


----------



## aaronwt

jay_man2 said:


> That hasn't been my experience in the DC area. I'm regularly in areas that get only one bar of LTE, and often revert to 3G service.


It's been a long time since I was anywhere that dropped to 3G service. The last time it happened may have been over two years ago for me.
I'm mostly in Northern VA, DC(near the white House), and in Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington Maryland in my travel around the DC area. The vast majority in Northern VA since I live in Woodbridge. My GF lives in Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington. And I work in Arlington and DC.


----------



## jay_man2

When my phone goes to 3G anything but voice is seemingly unusable.


----------



## NashGuy

jay_man2 said:


> When my phone goes to 3G anything but voice is seemingly unusable.


I don't seem to have that problem and I'm on Sprint! (Eh, it was free for a year and has worked perfectly fine. Couple times I've been out in the boonies, it's just kicked over to roaming on somebody else's network at no charge to me.)


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> I don't seem to have that problem and I'm on Sprint! (Eh, it was free for a year and has worked perfectly fine. Couple times I've been out in the boonies, it's just kicked over to roaming on somebody else's network at no charge to me.)


Sprint does have the "can you hear me now" guy now, so they must be good.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> But even if I did , I only pay $27 or less a month for the 15GB plan(with unlimited it would only cost me $39 or less). By getting the Verizon refill pins at 40% off or more(on eBAy). And my Verizon prepaid experience has been identical to my Verizon postpaid experience in the DC area.


How/where do you get them that cheap?



aaronwt said:


> Depends on where you drive. Here in the DC area I don't lose service on Verizon wireless.
> I've even been several levels below ground, in a building without a DAS, and still had Verizon service. And last week, when I went to a funeral. 40 or so miles outside of the DC area. I never lost service out there either. And I don't have roaming turned on. I always turn that off on my cell phones.


Yeah, but when you travel, you will hit deadspots. Hundreds or thousands of them. Our cellular networks just aren't that well engineered. A lot of them still seem to be spaced for 850mhz AMPS and so LTE and even 3G sometimes just drop out between towers, there are roads and towns with no service at all. Then there's West Virginia, part of which is a giant deadzone by law, and much of which just has lousy coverage due to terrain and economics. And Verizon doesn't have coverage in most of the state anyway.

I have an excellent device (Note 9) on AT&T, and I still run into dead spots all over the place. B14 with HPUE might help a bit, but it's not a magic bullet if there just aren't towers there. My Sprint phone, even when on USCC, and with the ability in certain areas to roam on T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, and others, hits them as well.



jay_man2 said:


> When my phone goes to 3G anything but voice is seemingly unusable.


Yeah, it's pretty much gotten to that point. It's sometimes usable, but often not due to it getting overloaded so easily these days.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> How/where do you get them that cheap?
> 
> ........


I get them from eBay. There are several sellers I use that have been selling them for years.
I also try to wait for an 8% or 10% eBay bucks sale. So I can save even more money when I purchase the refill pins..


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> I get them from eBay. There are several sellers I use that have been selling them for years.
> I also try to wait for an 8% or 10% eBay bucks sale. So I can save even more money when I purchase the refill pins..


Where are they getting them so cheap as to be able to resell them at a profit and still be that cheap?


----------



## Bigg

Verizon is selling the $40 ones directly on Amazon for $26.89, but that would only cover the 6GB plan.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Where are they getting them so cheap as to be able to resell them at a profit and still be that cheap?


No idea. But they have been selling them on eBay for years. I usually buy a bunch at a time when I can get the best price. So I typically keep a balance on my Verizon Prepaid account of $200 to $500 or more.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Verizon is selling the $40 ones directly on Amazon for $26.89, but that would only cover the 6GB plan.


You don't need a specific amount for a plan. They just pull the amount out of you balance. Then you also enable auto-pay to get a $5 discount each month. You give them a Credit Card number, but they always pull from your balance first. So I'm on the 15GB plan(8GB + 7GB for life) which costs $50 a month. Then I get $5 off which takes it to $45 a month. Then I get my refill pins for at least 40% off. Which takes my monthly price down to $27 a month.
Going forward, me buying the refill pins when they have special eBAy bucks sales will be even more important. Since Ebay just started applying tax for Virginia residents on July 1st.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> .
> Yeah, but when you travel, you will hit deadspots. Hundreds or thousands of them. Our cellular networks just aren't that well engineered. A lot of them still seem to be spaced for 850mhz AMPS and so LTE and even 3G sometimes just drop out between towers, there are roads and towns with no service at all. Then there's West Virginia, part of which is a giant deadzone by law, and much of which just has lousy coverage due to terrain and economics. And Verizon doesn't have coverage in most of the state anyway.
> 
> I have an excellent device (Note 9) on AT&T, and I still run into dead spots all over the place. B14 with HPUE might help a bit, but it's not a magic bullet if there just aren't towers there. My Sprint phone, even when on USCC, and with the ability in certain areas to roam on T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, and others, hits them as well.


If you are by main roads you might be fine. When my GF and I drive up to Niagara Falls, it's an eight hour drive from here. But I have great cell service the entire way. But we are also traveling on major roads.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> You don't need a specific amount for a plan. They just pull the amount out of you balance. Then you also enable auto-pay to get a $5 discount each month. You give them a Credit Card number, but they always pull from your balance first. So I'm on the 15GB plan(8GB + 7GB for life) which costs $50 a month. Then I get $5 off which takes it to $45 a month. Then I get my refill pins for at least 40% off. Which takes my monthly price down to $27 a month.


Quite interesting. You've really got it figured out so you can save on wireless and pump all that back into your over the top network setup. 



aaronwt said:


> If you are by main roads you might be fine. When my GF and I drive up to Niagara Falls, it's an eight hour drive from here. But I have great cell service the entire way. But we are also traveling on major roads.


Major highways are generally better, but even then there can be weak/dead spots. Once you're off the major highways and on secondary roads, it all goes out the window. It can be great one mile and drop out completely the next. I've probably drive through thousands of dead spots just in the past few years. Western Michigan was the worst I can remember recently, but I've hit them in many other states. I can't think of a state that I've visited yet where I didn't hit a dead spot unless I was only there for an hour or two.


----------



## Diana Collins

NashGuy said:


> Considering where the vast majority of Americans live and commute on a regular basis, those dead zones don't really matter. The streaming music services cache ahead enough of each song so that if your car briefly passes through a dead spot in the city or suburbs, it doesn't typically matter.
> 
> I feel like this is heading toward one of those "rural dwellers' lives matter!" confrontations, which I'm not really interested in. Again, I understand that about 20% of Americans live in rural areas and, even as wireless 4G and 5G coverage will continue to expand in the years to come, there will still be a place and need for satellite-based radio. Sounds like you're one of those folks for whom it makes sense.


I was driving in New York a few weeks ago on the Taconic Parkway and then east towards Catamount (a popular skiing area in winter) and had no cell service (not just LTE, no service at all) for many miles of the drive. This is not some isolated stretch of forest or mountains. The area is semi-rural, but generally well populated, with several decent sized towns, not to mention state parks and skiing areas. This is also why I always have an actual GPS device (either standalone or built into the vehicle) since few phone based apps store the maps locally. Of course, satellite radio cuts out too, despite any buffering...there are several places around here where the tree cover is so dense the radio cuts out for 10 or 20 seconds at a time.


----------



## Adam C.

Diana Collins said:


> I was driving in New York a few weeks ago on the Taconic Parkway and then east towards Catamount (a popular skiing area in winter) and had no cell service (not just LTE, no service at all) for many miles of the drive. This is not some isolated stretch of forest or mountains. The area is semi-rural, but generally well populated, with several decent sized towns, not to mention state parks and skiing areas. This is also why I always have an actual GPS device (either standalone or built into the vehicle) since few phone based apps store the maps locally. Of course, satellite radio cuts out too, despite any buffering...there are several places around here where the tree cover is so dense the radio cuts out for 10 or 20 seconds at a time.


What cell provider?


----------



## Diana Collins

There were 3 phones in the car, my iPhone Xr, an iPhone 7, both on Verizon, and a Galaxy S9 on AT&T. I was standing in front of an bank in one town, and couldn't get better 1 bar of 3G. When I tried to make a voice call from there it cut in and out and then dropped.


----------



## NashGuy

Diana Collins said:


> I was driving in New York a few weeks ago on the Taconic Parkway and then east towards Catamount (a popular skiing area in winter) and had no cell service (not just LTE, no service at all) for many miles of the drive. This is not some isolated stretch of forest or mountains. The area is semi-rural, but generally well populated, with several decent sized towns, not to mention state parks and skiing areas. This is also why I always have an actual GPS device (either standalone or built into the vehicle) since few phone based apps store the maps locally. Of course, satellite radio cuts out too, despite any buffering...there are several places around here where the tree cover is so dense the radio cuts out for 10 or 20 seconds at a time.


Chilling true stories from the American hinterlands! ;-)

But seriously, is that drive you described part of your regular commute or even a drive you take most weekends? I don't deny that there are sizable pockets where cellular coverage is poor once you get outside of metro areas (or even that there are small dead spots within them). The point I was making is that the superior coverage/connectivity of satellite radio isn't much of a selling point to the vast majority of Americans who enjoy music/audio entertainment. Let's be honest, if it was, that would be the lead marketing message that SiriusXM uses (and, for that matter, we'd see a lot more folks subscribing to SiriusXM and fewer to Spotify and Apple Music). Instead, SiriusXM seems to now be emphasizing the fact that they can be accessed via streaming too, not just via satellite!

I've made the drive along the interstates connecting Chattanooga, TN and Indianapolis, IN many times. I don't typically stream music all or even most of the ride but I will say that in all the many years of doing that drive, I've never noticed anything other than *very* brief stretches where I had no connectivity on my cell phone, regardless of which carrier I was using at the time. (I've switched carriers a fair amount over the years.)


----------



## GuysInCT

Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the Edge?


----------



## CajunRuss

GuysInCT said:


> Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the Edge?


I agree


----------



## foghorn2

GuysInCT said:


> Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the Edge?


That's why am radio is better than Sirius XM, sounds the same and no tunnel fades.

♒

and everything I have works perfect and never have any problems, even when streaming plex stuff to my cars tv underneath a bridge. ♎


----------



## TonyD79

NashGuy said:


> Instead, SiriusXM seems to now be emphasizing the fact that they can be accessed via streaming too, not just via satellite!


That would have nothing to do with the satellite requirement to buy a radio or that it is very difficult to get satellite radio inside a building without special equipment. None of it would have to do with growing a market and having both venues.

Go do your streaming and stop trying to prove one is better than another. I'm happy with XM in my car and always will be. I would rather not tie up my phone.


----------



## snerd

GuysInCT said:


> Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the Edge?


Rebel!


----------



## NashGuy

TonyD79 said:


> That would have nothing to do with the satellite requirement to buy a radio or that it is very difficult to get satellite radio inside a building without special equipment. None of it would have to do with growing a market and having both venues.
> 
> Go do your streaming and stop trying to prove one is better than another. I'm happy with XM in my car and always will be. I would rather not tie up my phone.


Yes, grandpa.


----------



## NashGuy

GuysInCT said:


> Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss the Edge?


Feel free to post your thoughts on the TiVo Edge here or respond to any of the voluminous posts that already exist on it over the first dozen or so pages of this thread.

I'm not sure how much more there is to say, speculate or debate about the TiVo Edge until some new actual information about it gets released or leaks out from TiVo/Arris.


----------



## Dan203

I'm still thinking this might be their Android TV device repackaged for the retail market. All the pieces are there already in MSO products so why not bring it to retail where it would be a LOT more useful as an actual streaming platform.


----------



## Bigg

Diana Collins said:


> There were 3 phones in the car, my iPhone Xr, an iPhone 7, both on Verizon, and a Galaxy S9 on AT&T. I was standing in front of an bank in one town, and couldn't get better 1 bar of 3G. When I tried to make a voice call from there it cut in and out and then dropped.


The NIMBYS:

"NO CELL PHONE TOWERS! CELL PHONE TOWERS BAD! Cell phone towers ruin the rural character of our town!"

Two minutes later:

"WHY DOESN'T MY PHONE WORK?!?!?"

Not that the cell phone tower industry has really helped itself by building ugly monstrosities and failing to co-locate in a lot of instances.



NashGuy said:


> The point I was making is that the superior coverage/connectivity of satellite radio isn't much of a selling point to the vast majority of Americans who enjoy music/audio entertainment.


I think you're right in terms of the average consumer, but there is also a large niche market for truckers, RVers, rural users, boaters, etc, who often have crap cell phone service.



> I've made the drive along the interstates connecting Chattanooga, TN and Indianapolis, IN many times. I don't typically stream music all or even most of the ride but I will say that in all the many years of doing that drive, I've never noticed anything other than *very* brief stretches where I had no connectivity on my cell phone, regardless of which carrier I was using at the time. (I've switched carriers a fair amount over the years.)


There's two issues. One is not having service at all. The other is patchy/unreliable service. I've been on many roads with no service at all, but also many where the phone will usually have service, but often cuts out between towers, or is generally too slow/unreliable to stream music.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> I'm still thinking this might be their Android TV device repackaged for the retail market. All the pieces are there already in MSO products so why not bring it to retail where it would be a LOT more useful as an actual streaming platform.


I hope you're right. If Arris could bring a CableCARD TiVo to the retail market running on Android TV with access to all those apps in the Google Play Store, it would immediately make TiVo a much more attractive option for many cable TV subscribers.

But as I've said before, I'm skeptical that that will happen. Using Android TV as the basis of a TiVo box designed for accessing a pay TV operator's own IPTV platform -- where CableCARD isn't needed -- is a different matter than getting Android TV to work with CableCARD. Nothing's impossible, of course, but I question whether TiVo/Arris are putting the time and money into making that happen for a new model CableCARD TiVo in 2019. (I also wonder about the process whereby CableLabs might have to approve an Android TV + CableCARD design and whether they might be incentivized not to do so simply because Comcast has SO much sway over CableLabs. Remember, Comcast sees X1 as a multi-app platform/OS and they want it to compete with Roku in that regard.)


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> I hope you're right. If Arris could bring a CableCARD TiVo to the retail market running on Android TV with access to all those apps in the Google Play Store, it would immediately make TiVo a much more attractive option for many cable TV subscribers.
> 
> But as I've said before, I'm skeptical that that will happen. Using Android TV as the basis of a TiVo box designed for accessing a pay TV operator's own IPTV platform -- where CableCARD isn't needed -- is a different matter than getting Android TV to work with CableCARD. Nothing's impossible, of course, but I question whether TiVo/Arris are putting the time and money into making that happen for a new model CableCARD TiVo in 2019. (I also wonder about the process whereby CableLabs might have to approve an Android TV + CableCARD design and whether they might be incentivized not to do so simply because Comcast has SO much sway over CableLabs. Remember, Comcast sees X1 as a multi-app platform/OS and they want it to compete with Roku in that regard.)


Do we really know how much work it is? I mean Android is just an offshoot of Linux so many the CableCARD part from the regular TiVo software is easy to port over. CableCARD is also just PCMCIA so maybe creating a drive for Android isn't that hard. I can't say for sure as I'm not a Linux or Android developer, but it's possible this isn't as big a deal as we think.

Also it could be like the Bolt where the OTA version comes first and the CableCARD version is delayed for a while while they figure this stuff out.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Do we really know how much work it is? I mean Android is just an offshoot of Linux so many the CableCARD part from the regular TiVo software is easy to port over. CableCARD is also just PCMCIA so maybe creating a drive for Android isn't that hard. I can't say for sure as I'm not a Linux or Android developer, but it's possible this isn't as big a deal as we think.
> 
> Also it could be like the Bolt where the OTA version comes first and the CableCARD version is delayed for a while while they figure this stuff out.


Yeah, good point. In terms of the development costs required, it may not be prohibitive. But getting it to pass muster with CableLabs could be an obstacle, I was thinking...

And then a bit of Google searching led me to this page:
'Operator Ready' Android TV | Amino Communications

Amino appears to be a British company doing the exact same stuff for pay TV operators that TiVo does. So a direct competitor (although maybe not active in the USA?). And look at how they advertise their "Operator Ready Android TV" Amino platform (bold emphasis mine):

_Operator Ready Android TV enhances the features of Operator Tier Android TV by adding the capabilities important to pay-TV providers.
_

_Support for: IGMP Multicast, Multicast ABR, MPEG2_
_Retransmission_
_DRM extensions_
_*CableCard support for legacy CAS*_
_Self-install wizard_
_EAS (where applicable)_
_Closed Captioning_
*So maybe I was wrong?!*


----------



## compuguy

BobCamp1 said:


> Two tuners works just fine for OTA, where there are only five real channels (six if you count PBS). I rarely use more than two tuners in my FIOS Bolt.
> 
> Besides, Tivo has the data to tell them whether or not a two tuner OTA product is viable.
> 
> Finally, there are no young, hip Tivo fans. They're a bunch of old geezers who are still clinging to cable TV. Anybody who's young doesn't watch TV that way -- they just stream it to their smartphones.


I guess I'm the exception then. I'm in my 30's and I own a 6 tuner Roamio and a older 4 tuner one.



HerronScott said:


> What's forcing you to buy a newer TiVo? We have no problem with the Roamio Pro that we bought in 2015 and don't really see any reason for us to upgrade any time soon. Performance is fine even for the streaming apps and it's not as fast as the Bolt (yes it takes a while to launch Amazon or Hulu or Netflix but not enough to drive me to either purchase a new TiVo or even switch to the Amazon FireTV that we have). Before the Roamio, we were using 2 S3 OLED's that we bought Dec 2006/Jan 2007 so we were still using those 8 1/2 years later (and the primary drivers to upgrade was Comcast moving to MPEG4 and the increasing cost of TiVo lifetime at the time).
> 
> TiVo (really Arris for the hardware) is limited by the DVR chipsets that are being produced if they want to make a product that can be sold at a "reasonable" price.
> 
> Scott


I honestly bought a used Roamio Pro during the last Ebay coupon/deal sometime late last year. The bolt may have better performance, but it's easier to upgrade the storage on the Roamio's because they use 3.5 inch drives.



Diana Collins said:


> That 2TB drive will fill up pretty quickly if you record 4K. The Verizon 4K broadcast a few weeks ago was around the same bit rate. So no matter how you get 4K content, current DVRs (and the Edge) aren't equipped to store it.


The irony is my Roamio pro with an 8tb hard drive is capable in the storage department. Not in the actual tuning department...



NashGuy said:


> I know I'm the one who brought up the whole "ATSC 3.0-competitor-to-satellite-radio" but, honestly, does anyone under 45 subscribe to Sirius XM? And isn't a big slice of the folks (at any age) who do subscribe doing it so that they can listen to Howard Stern or other exclusive personalities? I've listened to the free previews in my car and, frankly, the audio quality for music kinda sucks. It's thin and tinny. Free streaming Pandora via cellular on my phone to the car via Bluetooth sounds significantly better to me.


I'm in my 30s and subscribe to SiriusXM (with discounts). Yes, the audio quality on most of the channel is pretty sub par. There are a small number of channels in the 300 range that newer SiriusXM receivers can get that have audio quality that is close to a 128 kbps AAC file though.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> CableCARD is also just PCMCIA so maybe creating a drive for Android isn't that hard.


CableCard uses a physical PCMCIA slot, but does it actually use PCMCIA? I remember back in the day when laptops had Type II and Type III PCMCIA slots. PCMag got the original Type II PCMCIA EVDO card, and they were astounded that their test laptop got *over one megabit per second* across New York city on Verizon's EVDO network, with unlimited data, *for only $80/mo*.


----------



## compuguy

Bigg said:


> I suspect there are really two markets here. One is for talk content, the other (with some overlap) is for rural/remote reception, i.e. truckers, boaters, RVers, etc.
> 
> Apparently they compress differently for the Sirius side versus the XM side, but the Sirius side has now been converted to geosynchronous just like XM always was. Weird stuff. So the quality may be different depending on which system you're on. I think I was on the Sirius side last time I had it, but I'm not totally sure. I can tell you one thing, it was pretty bad. It sounded tinny and it lacked depth or bass at all.
> 
> You can download playlists, but you have to think to do that beforehand. That's another issue with streaming, you have to have service. There are many parts of the US where there is LTE, but it's not consistent enough to stream off of, as it keeps stopping between towers or in dead spots. Even in parts of Connecticut a few miles off of the Acela Corridor, it doesn't work reliably, much less in areas of the country that are actually rural and not suburban/exurban.


My receiver in my 16' Subaru Impreza is XM based with those "Xtra" channels. The quality of the regular XM channels is mediocre. The "Xtra" channels (300 range) have decent audio quality.



Bigg said:


> Yeah, all that bloat and cruft is why Google Fi isn't very practical anymore, and why the carriers are pushing the UDPs so hard. You can block ads though, or use a browser that blocks ads, and that helps a LOT.
> 
> OTOH, apps are just as bad. I have a bunch of apps that I barely ever use that are pulling 50-100MB/mo EACH. It's totally out of hand.


It has some niche advantages, especially if you travel.



Adam C. said:


> Since we're talking about satellite radio I'll add my 2 cents. When I bought my new car they gave me an entire year of free XM radio. I used it for about a week and then never touched it again. Why? Because it's radio. I have no control over what is airing. Sure I can pick a genre, but what I found is that those stations play the same songs over and over. So even with a price tag of "free" I did not find XM to be a good value. With that said, I subscribe to Google Music and absolutely love it. Especially since I use Android Auto which integrates perfectly in my car. I can simply say "Hey Google" while I'm driving and request virtually any song or album ever made, plus listen to my custom playlists. I can even have Google curate my own radio stations based on genre, artist, etc. This of course works at home too or while I'm out walking with headphones. I only pay for a 5GB cell phone plan and not once have I ever gone over my data limit, nor have I ever lost cell service in any location.





Dan203 said:


> I guess it's all a matter of taste. I like "radio" specifically because I don't have to control what's airing. I tried Pandora for a while but I found that it kind of wandered from my actual taste and started to play weird stuff I'd never heard before and didn't really like. I'm not a big music guy, but I do have a "taste" and most/all of what they play on the stations I listen to are enjoyable. That's all I care about. (I mainly listen to PopRocks on SiriusXM these days)





DeltaOne said:


> We subscribe to a SiriusXM news package. We love having CNN and MSNBC available in the car.
> 
> Fun fact...FOX News is not included in the SiriusXM news package!
> 
> My old car only has AM and FM. But my smart phone will stream CNN and MSNBC.





DeltaOne said:


> We subscribe to a SiriusXM news package. We love having CNN and MSNBC available in the car.
> 
> Fun fact...FOX News is not included in the SiriusXM news package!
> 
> My old car only has AM and FM. But my smart phone will stream CNN and MSNBC.


Thats partly why I have the subscription for (the cable news channels). That and the connivence in certain situations not having spend the time setting up my smartphone to play podcasts or say Spotify...



aaronwt said:


> Looking back I still kick myself for buying a bunch of Bolts. I should have just kept my six tuner Roamio Pro with a 5TB hard drive. The one thing I really like about the Bolt is the fast transfer rates to a PC or another Bolt. Up to 500Mb/s transfer rates. My Roamio Basic is to slow with transfers with just a 100BT connection.
> 
> Although if TiVo had updated the apps, then maybe things would be different. In 2015 they were pretty much ahead of everyone. But then everyone surpassed them. Now my Bolts are almost the last device I want to use for streaming apps.


This is why I bought a used Roamio Pro and stuck a 8TB hard drive in it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the Roamio Basic though (after watching the Copy-once shows that are on it). I might get this Series 7 DVR for its 4k QAM capabilities...maybe.



aaronwt said:


> When FIOS broadcast the live NASCAR race in UHD and HLG HDR this past May, they were using around a 23Mb/s bitrate. Which looked to be about on par with a Netflix UHD/HDR title at 15Mb/s.
> It makes sense that broadcasters would concentrate on 1080P and HDR. That makes much more sense with the limited bandwidth they have. I just hope with ATSC 3.0 that they dedicate enough bandwidth to make the 1080P broadcast look good. Because right now in my area, the DC area, all the local broadcasters content looks like ass. Since all the broadcasts are bitstarved.
> 
> Between OTA and FiOS looking so bad, it's the entire reason I rarely use my TiVos any more. I get much better video quality from the streaming services. And I would have never even considered switching to them if OTA in my area and FiOS still had good picture quality.


I agree that the DC area OTA channels are bitstarved. The transmitter consolidation/repacks that are happening aren't going to help. I've recently signed up for a streaming service as well. The quality is much better, but there are some reliability and mobile app issues that Sling really needs to work out though...



aaronwt said:


> Depends on where you drive. Here in the DC area I don't lose service on Verizon wireless.
> I've even been several levels below ground, in a building without a DAS, and still had Verizon service. And last week, when I went to a funeral. 40 or so miles outside of the DC area. I never lost service out there either. And I don't have roaming turned on. I always turn that off on my cell phones.


T-mobile has made some great strides in coverage in this area as well. Though coverage outside of NoVA is a different story, though.


----------



## compuguy

aaronwt said:


> It's been a long time since I was anywhere that dropped to 3G service. The last time it happened may have been over two years ago for me.
> I'm mostly in Northern VA, DC(near the white House), and in Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington Maryland in my travel around the DC area. The vast majority in Northern VA since I live in Woodbridge. My GF lives in Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington. And I work in Arlington and DC.





NashGuy said:


> I don't seem to have that problem and I'm on Sprint! (Eh, it was free for a year and has worked perfectly fine. Couple times I've been out in the boonies, it's just kicked over to roaming on somebody else's network at no charge to me.)





Dan203 said:


> Sprint does have the "can you hear me now" guy now, so they must be good.


I've actually had a phone drop to 3G service recently. Though it was Sprint (A second year of that free year deal), and it was on the DC Metro though. I can only think of one or two times its happened on T-mobile though (in the DC Metro area at least)...


----------



## d_anders

Diana Collins said:


> That 2TB drive will fill up pretty quickly if you record 4K. The Verizon 4K broadcast a few weeks ago was around the same bit rate. So no matter how you get 4K content, current DVRs (and the Edge) aren't equipped to store it.


.

True but Special sports events aside in the next 2-4 years, the vast majority of broadcasts will remain at 720 and 1080. I hope that I am wrong, but they are just doing tests

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeKustra

foghorn2 said:


> Just to sound like DAN 203 here
> The new Edge is not a music streaming service, so Im wondering what there are so many posts about music streaming services in this thread


Whenever a product (any) is not in member's hands, people speculate and tend to use their favorite (usually non-existent) thing to post something. Every thread eventually turns to ATSC 3.0, IPTV, or TiVo's collapse after a few pages of guessing. It's just noise.


----------



## Bigg

compuguy said:


> My receiver in my 16' Subaru Impreza is XM based with those "Xtra" channels. The quality of the regular XM channels is mediocre. The "Xtra" channels (300 range) have decent audio quality.


Maybe the XM side is better than the Sirius side.



> It has some niche advantages, especially if you travel.


Yes, for global travel it's great. Probably as a second line for many.


----------



## Joe3

JoeKustra said:


> Whenever a product (any) is not in member's hands, people speculate and tend to use their favorite (usually non-existent) thing to post something. Every thread eventually turns to ATSC 3.0, IPTV, or TiVo's collapse after a few pages of guessing. It's just noise.


Sorry, friend. I can't let the old canned response that it's noisemakers just float by. Not after years of missed opportunity on TiVo's part. Not after hearing years of the same old canned excuses of just noise just to reassure the unwitting TiVo customers that all is well like some Jedi mind **** that says ignore the facts over there that clearly reveals all is indeed not well. Poorly decided decisions constantly made over years, all is not well. The fact that TiVo is in competition with with other players explains a more plausible speculation about ATSC 3.0, IPTV, or TiVo's collapse than being just noise.

The fact that TiVo delivers so little information (I hope it's because of the competition) is the reason that people here go off on tangents. People can talk about another upcoming weak TiVo box based on released information just so much, until I hope, they get surprisingly happier news.


----------



## JoeKustra

Joe3 said:


> Sorry, friend. I can't let the old canned response that it's noisemakers just float by.


Not a problem. I suspect there's more of "you" than "me".


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, good point. In terms of the development costs required, it may not be prohibitive. But getting it to pass muster with CableLabs could be an obstacle, I was thinking...
> 
> And then a bit of Google searching led me to this page:
> 'Operator Ready' Android TV | Amino Communications
> 
> Amino appears to be a British company doing the exact same stuff for pay TV operators that TiVo does. So a direct competitor (although maybe not active in the USA?). And look at how they advertise their "Operator Ready Android TV" Amino platform (bold emphasis mine):
> 
> _Operator Ready Android TV enhances the features of Operator Tier Android TV by adding the capabilities important to pay-TV providers.
> _
> 
> _Support for: IGMP Multicast, Multicast ABR, MPEG2_
> _Retransmission_
> _DRM extensions_
> _*CableCard support for legacy CAS*_
> _Self-install wizard_
> _EAS (where applicable)_
> _Closed Captioning_
> *So maybe I was wrong?!*


I have no idea how hard it is. I've never really got in to that kind of programming. (i.e. device/driver development)

I don't think the certification part is that hard. The encryption scheme is the hardest thing to get approved and TiVo already has an approved encryption scheme. So as long as that ports over I think they'd be fine.

The fact that TiVo is already "advertising" a product for MSOs that does everything but actually record from CableCARD and appears to have been completed last year is what gives me hope that the Edge might be an Android TV device. If all they've been working on for the last 7 months is adding CableCARD support it seems doable. If the whole project was from scratch I'd be a lot less optimistic.

I'm sure there are people in the Edge beta right now that know exactly how it works that are laughing at our stupid speculations. I've been that guy before. Unfortunately I'm not this time so I'm just guessing and hoping.


----------



## Bigg

Keep in mind that the separable security mandate is no longer, so TiVo has less incentive to do CableCard. Even without CableCard, they could sell it with built-in security to MSOs that use linear QAM. I'm not sure what the feasibility of doing the built-in security versus CableCard is, but it's now at least legally a possibility. They could still do retail OTA without CableCard, but it would likely kill off an retail cable device. Again, just more speculation, as I have no reason to believe that's what they're actually doing. They may well be going towards IPTV for MSOs, and continuing to ship Roamio or Bolts to MSOs that use QAM.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> Keep in mind that the separable security mandate is no longer, so TiVo has less incentive to do CableCard. Even without CableCard, they could sell it with built-in security to MSOs that use linear QAM. I'm not sure what the feasibility of doing the built-in security versus CableCard is, but it's now at least legally a possibility. They could still do retail OTA without CableCard, but it would likely kill off an retail cable device. Again, just more speculation, as I have no reason to believe that's what they're actually doing. They may well be going towards IPTV for MSOs, and continuing to ship Roamio or Bolts to MSOs that use QAM.


There are two TiVo platforms offered to MSOs: the TiVo Next-Gen Platform for those going IPTV and then the Arris MG2 (with CableCARD) for those still using QAM. The "MG" stands for "media gateway," by the way.

Dave Zatz indicates that the TiVo Edge is just the consumer retail version of an upcoming Arris MG3, which makes total sense, because why put out a new retail CableCARD DVR unless it's just riding on the coattails of a new MSO box? No point in sticking with the old Bolt for retail when they could achieve greater economy of scale by sticking the same internals from the MG3 in a possibly different-looking outer shell with a zippy name like Edge.

Now, IF the Edge has a bigger, better app platform (thanks to Android TV/Google Play), that would make it a real upgrade over the Bolt. But if it's just slightly faster, with support for Dolby Vision, that's not too exciting and my guess is that the decision to bring the Edge to market in that case would mainly be about manufacturing cost savings (economy of scale), not so much to drive higher retail sales. But whatever the underlying rationale(s), rest assured that we're not going to see TiVo+Arris bring any future TiVo devices to the retail market unless they're just repurposed MSO devices.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> Dave Zatz indicates that the TiVo Edge is just the consumer retail version of an upcoming Arris MG3, which makes total sense, because why put out a new retail CableCARD DVR unless it's just riding on the coattails of a new MSO box? No point in sticking with the old Bolt for retail when they could achieve greater economy of scale by sticking the same internals from the MG3 in a possibly different-looking outer shell with a zippy name like Edge.


So is the MG3 CableCard based? It does make sense to share the same platform, since the retail market is so small.


----------



## NashGuy

Bigg said:


> So is the MG3 CableCard based? It does make sense to share the same platform, since the retail market is so small.


I'm not sure if that's publicly available info yet. I think the only reference to the MG3 that I've seen is from the Zatz link that I included in my previous post. I mean, yeah, I guess it's *possible* that the MG3 will use some sort of software-based security rather than a physical CableCARD since the MG3 will be deployed by MSOs as their own STBs. But how would that work at all for a retail version of the same device, the TiVo Edge for Cable? That device MUST be able to work with the QAM channels operated by Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice, etc. There's no standard available OTHER than CableCARD to make that happen.


----------



## Bigg

NashGuy said:


> I'm not sure if that's publicly available info yet. I think the only reference to the MG3 that I've seen is from the Zatz link that I included in my previous post. I mean, yeah, I guess it's *possible* that the MG3 will use some sort of software-based security rather than a physical CableCARD since the MG3 will be deployed by MSOs as their own STBs. But how would that work at all for a retail version of the same device, the TiVo Edge for Cable? That device MUST be able to work with the QAM channels operated by Comcast, Charter, Verizon, Cox, Altice, etc. There's no standard available OTHER than CableCARD to make that happen.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking through. If it didn't have CableCard, it likely wouldn't work on any of the large MSOs, and wouldn't be a viable retail product for cable use at all. There could still be a viable OTA version though. The original article says it is "for cable" though, so it will likely be CableCard.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Being on the CableLabs certified list pretty much guarantees it's a cablecard product, since its function is to verify retail devices meet OpenCable standards.

https://www-res.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/17210750/OC_PNP_Public_April_2019.pdf

April. We could have learned about it 2 months earlier if we were more vigilant. 

The list is largely an ocean of old TVs from the mid 2000's, and a handful of devices from Tivo, Hauppauge, Ceton, and Digeo. (Who knew so many TVs had cablecard slots?)


----------



## JoeKustra

My cable company is indicating they will be using the Arris/TiVo product: Service Electric Cablevision | TiVo

In their description or price list is there any mention of a cable card requirement. It could be included in the box rental.

It will be available.... soon.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Bigg said:


> Maybe the XM side is better than the Sirius side.


The technology XM used for their satellite system was better than what Sirius used. Unfortunately, the two different systems are incompatible. It would have been nice if the FCC had mandated that the 2 U.S. satellite radio companies use the same compatible technology, but alas the government regulators decided to allow the "free market" to determine what was best. In retrospect, that was a mistake.

Regardless, I had hoped when Sirius and XM merged, that they would begin to shift over to only using XM radios moving forward and focus on one system of satellites. By doing that, they could have eventually repurposed the Sirius spectrum and effectively doubled the bandwidth capacity of XM radios by doing that. Unfortunately, it looks like that isn't going to happen. They seem to be determined to manitain two separate, incompatible satellite systems indefinitely and restricting each to half the bandwidth that they could be using to increase audio quality and programming selection.


----------



## NashGuy

JoeKustra said:


> My cable company is indicating they will be using the Arris/TiVo product: Service Electric Cablevision | TiVo
> 
> In their description or price list is there any mention of a cable card requirement. It could be included in the box rental.
> 
> It will be available.... soon.


Yes, there was an announcement put out awhile back that Service Electric would be using TiVo's new IPTV platform.

But it also appears that this company is already using CableCARD-based TiVos for QAM-based traditional cable TV. On the page you linked, I notice a picture of the TiVo/Arris MG2 in the "TiVo FAQs" panel at the bottom. And if you click through there, you can see under "Features" where they say "TiVo has 6 tuners" and can "store up to 150 hours of HD," both of which are descriptors that wouldn't really apply to the TiVo IPTV platform (which doesn't use QAM tuners and which relies on cloud DVR with arbitrary storage limits set by the MSO).

So it looks like Service Electric is a traditional cableco that is transitioning to managed IPTV. I wonder what their long-term migration plan is, including when they foresee shutting down QAM TV and converting that spectrum over for managed IPTV and/or general internet usage?


----------



## JoeKustra

NashGuy said:


> Yes, there was an announcement put out awhile back that Service Electric would be using TiVo's new IPTV platform.
> But it also appears that this company is already using CableCARD-based TiVos for QAM-based traditional cable TV. On the page you linked, I notice a picture of the TiVo/Arris MG2 in the "TiVo FAQs" panel at the bottom. And if you click through there, you can see under "Features" where they say "TiVo has 6 tuners" and can "store up to 150 hours of HD," both of which are descriptors that wouldn't really apply to the TiVo IPTV platform (which doesn't use QAM tuners and which relies on cloud DVR with arbitrary storage limits set by the MSO).
> So it looks like Service Electric is a traditional cableco that is transitioning to managed IPTV. I wonder what their long-term migration plan is, including when they foresee shutting down QAM TV and converting that spectrum over for managed IPTV and/or general internet usage?


There is a lot of confusion about Service Electric and TiVo. It's made more complicated because there are three SE:
secv.com
secable.com
sectv.com
Only the last is currently using the equipment you referenced. The first, secv, is my office and doesn't mention a cable card. The better web page is: Service Electric Cable TV and Communications - Equipment where cable card is at least mentioned. I (seriously) get daily guide channel changes, none of which apply to me. Today my channel 1009 is supposed to be "Ya-Hoo".  I'm giving them time to get organized. I am looking forward to the app, but it may not work for me. I have seen "IPTV" included in several on-line guide provider lineup choices, but only as part of the cable feed - never alone. My feed first said "coming in May", then "Coming in June". Now it says "coming soon".


----------



## NashGuy

JoeKustra said:


> There is a lot of confusion about Service Electric and TiVo. It's made more complicated because there are three SE:
> secv.com
> secable.com
> sectv.com
> Only the last is currently using the equipment you referenced. The first, secv, is my office and doesn't mention a cable card.


Eh, I don't know how these three entities are involved with one another but I can tell you that I was looking at the link you posted above, secv.com/tivo. Go there and you'll see exactly what I described: a "TiVo FAQs" photo of the TiVo/Arris MG2 at the bottom of the page. This is an MSO box that uses CableCARD. Click on that picture and a subsequent link and you'll arrive at this page:

help.secv.com/help/tivo-features

That page contains the following:

How much space is available on a TiVo DVR?
TiVo allows you to store up 150 hours of HD or 1,000 hours of SD content. 
How many tuners does TiVo DVR have?
TiVo has 6 tuners that allow you to record up to 6 shows at one time as well as watch in any room.​Look, I'm certainly not going to argue with you about what equipment which Service Electric entity deploys. I'm just saying that the Service Electric associated with the "sevc.com" domain has posted info that is specific to traditional CableCARD TiVos as opposed to next-gen IPTV TiVos.


----------



## JoeKustra

NashGuy said:


> Eh, I don't know how these three entities are involved with one another but I can tell you that I was looking at the link you posted above, secv.com/tivo. Go there and you'll see exactly what I described: a "TiVo FAQs" photo of the TiVo/Arris MG2 at the bottom of the page. This is an MSO box that uses CableCARD. Click on that picture and a subsequent link and you'll arrive at this page:
> Look, I'm certainly not going to argue with you about what equipment which Service Electric entity deploys. I'm just saying that the Service Electric associated with the "sevc.com" domain has posted info that is specific to traditional CableCARD TiVos as opposed to next-gen IPTV TiVos.


No problem. The Lehigh Valley company does talk about cable cards. The Hazleton company doesn't. But one Arris box is $3 more than the other, so it might be baked in. BTW, there were four. @Jed1 knows all the family details and they are posted somewhere. DLSReports has a large thread just for SE.

My issue is that nowhere on the secv site does it indicate a cable card is needed for the TiVo. We know it does, but they haven't sent any out, so it doesn't matter. I received my annual rate increase letter in April, and it mentions channel changes and TiVo. So far all that has happened is the rate increase.

Other info:RCN Will Be First to Deploy TiVo's IPTV-Based Next-Gen Platform


----------



## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> The technology XM used for their satellite system was better than what Sirius used. Unfortunately, the two different systems are incompatible. It would have been nice if the FCC had mandated that the 2 U.S. satellite radio companies use the same compatible technology, but alas the government regulators decided to allow the "free market" to determine what was best. In retrospect, that was a mistake.
> 
> Regardless, I had hoped when Sirius and XM merged, that they would begin to shift over to only using XM radios moving forward and focus on one system of satellites. By doing that, they could have eventually repurposed the Sirius spectrum and effectively doubled the bandwidth capacity of XM radios by doing that. Unfortunately, it looks like that isn't going to happen. They seem to be determined to manitain two separate, incompatible satellite systems indefinitely and restricting each to half the bandwidth that they could be using to increase audio quality and programming selection.


It looks like they are now both broadcast off of the same satellites, which is weird, because Sirius used to use orbiting satellites, whereas XM was always geosynchronous.

The problem is that these radios are, in many cases, impossible to replace, since they are built into boats and cars that have very long lifespans, so it's not like getting a new phone or even a new cable box.


----------



## Dan203

Now that most of their DVR patents are ending or ended they have no real incentive to use their own software for everything. AndroidTV has a lot of built in DVR functionality and if they can just use that out of the box functionality developing a DVR UI on top of it wouldn't be that hard. Especially since they are already working on an app for Android that emulates the Hydra UI anyway. It might just be a matter of swapping out the underlying mind/RPC calls for calls into the AndroidTV DVR API instead.

Logically it makes a lot of sense given what we know. But not everything TiVo does is logical, so who knows.


----------



## Davelnlr_

MScottC said:


> T-Mobile, two lines, unlimited Voice, Texting, and Data; $70/month total with fees and taxes. Yes unlimited everything. Of course it pays to be over 55.


Sprint Unlimited Kickstart. $19.37/mo taxes and fees included. Had to bring my own phone and phone number. Can't find any deals better. Still, I prefer XM on my portable XMP3i with its build in EQ, plugged into my AUX jack on the car stereo. Sounds decent enough, and in the house, I just stream it in max bandwidth mode. Got it with Lifetime Service when XM and Sirius first combined for like $250. Paid for itself many times over.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Bigg said:


> The problem is that these radios are, in many cases, impossible to replace, since they are built into boats and cars that have very long lifespans, so it's not like getting a new phone or even a new cable box.


I understand that, but they could have started only selling new boats and cars with XM radios in them. After 10 of 15 years most active satellite radios would then be XM radios. They merged way back in 2007. If they had just done that back then, most active radios would be XM radios by now and they could eventually reclaim the extra bandwidth they now waste by simulcasting on different frequencies.


----------



## osu1991

I thought most radios in cars now, were branded SiriusXM and used the XM tech.


----------



## foghorn2

Plex should buy Sirius XM. Imagine how great and perfect that would be, they will make Billions with that.

PleXM


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

osu1991 said:


> I thought most radios in cars now, were branded SiriusXM and used the XM tech.


I have a Sirius radio in my Jeep but I don't think its the same tech as XM as I cannot get the same channel packages I have on my XM branded units.


----------



## foghorn2

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I have a Sirius radio in my Jeep but I don't think its the same tech as XM as I cannot get the same channel packages I have on my XM branded units.


Try AM radio, its free and sounds just about the same. They should integrate AM radio in the new TiVo Edge.


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I have a Sirius radio in my Jeep but I don't think its the same tech as XM as I cannot get the same channel packages I have on my XM branded units.


According to the Sirius XM page, a 2019 Jeep gets the Sirius XM package which is the combined package. Same as I have on my Honda Accord.


----------



## DocNo

Bigg said:


> and end up watching right-wing propaganda without even knowing what it is or where it is coming from.


lol - oh my, that evil subversive "right wing propaganda" - unlike what's on every other mainstream news station? 

As for content in general - streaming sucks. Quadruple the cost to cover what I get with FIOS and many streaming's options force commercials you can't skip. Want to hop back a few seconds to catch some missed content? The majority of streaming apps are horrible - laggy or just plain broken. Navigating content in Tivo is buttery smooth - EVERY TIME.

If Tivo goes down the that path then I will just cancel cable and do without. I already have more than I can watch off of YouTube and Prime Video which is essentially free since it's bundled with Prime. I wouldn't pay for it separately. If I was going to pay for anything it would be to YouTube to kill the ads.


----------



## NashGuy

DocNo said:


> As for content in general - streaming sucks.


Hey, isn't that cartoon character in your avatar The Tick? He had a 2-season live action series (in 4K HDR!) on Amazon Prime Video. But you probably didn't see it since you think streaming sucks.


----------



## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> I understand that, but they could have started only selling new boats and cars with XM radios in them. After 10 of 15 years most active satellite radios would then be XM radios. They merged way back in 2007. If they had just done that back then, most active radios would be XM radios by now and they could eventually reclaim the extra bandwidth they now waste by simulcasting on different frequencies.


True. Eventually. 10-15 years down the road. I wonder if it's more expensive or difficult to build dual-band radios?



DocNo said:


> lol - oh my, that evil subversive "right wing propaganda" - unlike what's on every other mainstream news station?


Fox News is clearly right-wing propaganda, and is well known to be such. However, Sinclair is sliding in under the radar, since few people know who owns their local stations. Watch John Oliver's piece on Sinclair.



> As for content in general - streaming sucks. Quadruple the cost to cover what I get with FIOS and many streaming's options force commercials you can't skip.


Most aren't lucky enough to have FiOS.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TonyD79 said:


> According to the Sirius XM page, a 2019 Jeep gets the Sirius XM package which is the combined package. Same as I have on my Honda Accord.


I don't have a 2019 Jeep so according to me it's not the same package.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

foghorn2 said:


> Try AM radio, its free and sounds just about the same. They should integrate AM radio in the new TiVo Edge.


LOL I can't get what I want to listen to via AM but thanks.


----------



## BillyClyde

I think the new Beta Channels TV Everywhere (TVE) integration is the real game changer here lately.

NEW: TV Everywhere Support (BETA)

If TiVo goes to Android based and can run the Channels App then all you'd need is the DVR server (if it can't run on the TiVo) and then connect an OTA antenna for the locals, then subscribe to PS Vue, Philo or use a TVE login from cable/satellite for your cable type channels and you'd have a fully integrated lineup for way cheap ($8/month for Channels DVR plus whatever TVE host costs)

I just tried it yesterday and it's pretty dang sweet! The quality is surprisingly good (1080p, 720p). Some channels looked better than from my MSO's feed!

P.S. - It also has Auto-Skip for commercials!


----------



## TonyD79

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I don't have a 2019 Jeep so according to me it's not the same package.


Hmmm. Where did I say you were wrong. I was pointing out that Jeep has gotten on the bandwagon for Sirius XM rather than just Sirius.


----------



## mschnebly

BillyClyde said:


> I think the new Beta Channels TV Everywhere (TVE) integration is the real game changer here lately.
> 
> NEW: TV Everywhere Support (BETA)
> 
> If TiVo goes to Android based and can run the Channels App then all you'd need is the DVR server (if it can't run on the TiVo) and then connect an OTA antenna for the locals, then subscribe to PS Vue, Philo or use a TVE login from cable/satellite for your cable type channels and you'd have a fully integrated lineup for way cheap ($8/month for Channels DVR plus whatever TVE host costs)
> 
> I just tried it yesterday and it's pretty dang sweet! The quality is surprisingly good (1080p, 720p). Some channels looked better than from my MSO's feed!
> 
> P.S. - It also has Auto-Skip for commercials!


I've been using Channels DVR and love it. Too bad Youtube TV is not supported with the new Beta.


----------



## JLV03

BillyClyde said:


> I think the new Beta Channels TV Everywhere (TVE) integration is the real game changer here lately.
> 
> NEW: TV Everywhere Support (BETA)
> 
> If TiVo goes to Android based and can run the Channels App then all you'd need is the DVR server (if it can't run on the TiVo) and then connect an OTA antenna for the locals, then subscribe to PS Vue, Philo or use a TVE login from cable/satellite for your cable type channels and you'd have a fully integrated lineup for way cheap ($8/month for Channels DVR plus whatever TVE host costs)
> 
> I just tried it yesterday and it's pretty dang sweet! The quality is surprisingly good (1080p, 720p). Some channels looked better than from my MSO's feed!
> 
> P.S. - It also has Auto-Skip for commercials!


Wow, picks up where HDHomerun Premium left off.


----------



## NashGuy

BillyClyde said:


> I think the new Beta Channels TV Everywhere (TVE) integration is the real game changer here lately.
> 
> NEW: TV Everywhere Support (BETA)
> 
> If TiVo goes to Android based and can run the Channels App then all you'd need is the DVR server (if it can't run on the TiVo) and then connect an OTA antenna for the locals, then subscribe to PS Vue, Philo or use a TVE login from cable/satellite for your cable type channels and you'd have a fully integrated lineup for way cheap ($8/month for Channels DVR plus whatever TVE host costs)
> 
> I just tried it yesterday and it's pretty dang sweet! The quality is surprisingly good (1080p, 720p). Some channels looked better than from my MSO's feed!
> 
> P.S. - It also has Auto-Skip for commercials!


Wow! Very cool that Channels has integrated live streaming cable channels, including the ability to record them to DVR, by using web-based TV Everywhere logins. This is the first I've heard of this feature.

But as far as TiVo running the Channels app, what would be the point? No need to buy a TiVo for that. Just buy an Nvidia Shield Android TV box. (It's $179, including a smart home extender package, right now. But you'd need to add your own USB 3.0 hard drive for storage since it only has 16GB internally.) That one box can do it all if this is what you're after. It can run the Channels app plus the Channels DVR server and it's compatible with this new TV Everywhere feature. Granted, the Shield's remote control isn't ideal for channel surfing and DVR use but there's probably a third-party remote out there that's a little better.


----------



## BillyClyde

NashGuy said:


> Wow! Very cool that Channels has integrated live streaming cable channels, including the ability to record them to DVR, by using web-based TV Everywhere logins. This is the first I've heard of this feature.
> 
> But as far as TiVo running the Channels app, what would be the point? No need to buy a TiVo for that. Just buy an Nvidia Shield Android TV box. (It's $179, including a smart home extender package, right now. But you'd need to add your own USB 3.0 hard drive for storage since it only has 16GB internally.) That one box can do it all if this is what you're after. It can run the Channels app plus the Channels DVR server and it's compatible with this new TV Everywhere feature. Granted, the Shield's remote control isn't ideal for channel surfing and DVR use but there's probably a third-party remote out there that's a little better.


The point would be that the TiVo would be the OTA tuner providing the local channels that get integrated into the app, the same as what you'd get if you bought an HDHomerun separately which the Channels app requires. The Shield doesn't have tuners so you'd have to buy an HDHR if you want your locals. Also I guess if you like the TiVo UI, which I do, that would be a bonus. Plus you'd get the great peanut remote and not have to rely on that small Shield remote or a third party's.

The Shield is how I have mine setup as the server DVR. I use FTV Cubes running Channels at each TV.


----------



## NashGuy

BillyClyde said:


> The point would be that the TiVo would be the OTA tuner providing the local channels that get integrated into the app, the same as what you'd get if you bought an HDHomerun separately which the Channels app requires. The Shield doesn't have tuners so you'd have to buy an HDHR if you want your locals. Also I guess if you like the TiVo UI, which I do, that would be a bonus. Plus you'd get the great peanut remote and not have to rely on that small Shield remote or a third party's.
> 
> The Shield is how I have mine setup as the server DVR. I use FTV Cubes running Channels at each TV.


Yeah, but as you say, you can just get your own HDHomeRun OTA (or CableCARD) tuners to work with Channels, so you don't need the TiVo for that. As for using the TiVo UI, Channels wouldn't agree to pass the video streams and controls from inside their own app over to the TiVo UI. And even if they did, would you want to pay the monthly fee for both Channels DVR service AND TiVo DVR service? Nah, doesn't make sense.

But hey, maybe TiVo will figure out a way to integrate browser-based TV Everywhere streams into their own system, just as Channels has done. Not sure that would be possible without the use of a network-connected PC or Mac, which seems rather un-TiVo-like, but who knows...


----------



## aaronwt

tarheelblue32 said:


> The technology XM used for their satellite system was better than what Sirius used. Unfortunately, the two different systems are incompatible. It would have been nice if the FCC had mandated that the 2 U.S. satellite radio companies use the same compatible technology, but alas the government regulators decided to allow the "free market" to determine what was best. In retrospect, that was a mistake.
> 
> Regardless, I had hoped when Sirius and XM merged, that they would begin to shift over to only using XM radios moving forward and focus on one system of satellites. By doing that, they could have eventually repurposed the Sirius spectrum and effectively doubled the bandwidth capacity of XM radios by doing that. Unfortunately, it looks like that isn't going to happen. They seem to be determined to manitain two separate, incompatible satellite systems indefinitely and restricting each to half the bandwidth that they could be using to increase audio quality and programming selection.


I thought they didn't have a choice? that the two systems were completely different and not compatible with each other?


----------



## foghorn2

aaronwt said:


> I thought they didn't have a choice? that the two systems were completely different and not compatible with each other?


They were completely compatible, I used the Xm tuners with Sirius service and vice a versa. Even my AM car tuner picked up XM channels. Never had any issues whatsoever and worked perfectly.


----------



## aaronwt

DocNo said:


> lol - oh my, that evil subversive "right wing propaganda" - unlike what's on every other mainstream news station?
> 
> As for content in general - streaming sucks. Quadruple the cost to cover what I get with FIOS and many streaming's options force commercials you can't skip. Want to hop back a few seconds to catch some missed content? The majority of streaming apps are horrible - laggy or just plain broken. Navigating content in Tivo is buttery smooth - EVERY TIME.
> 
> If Tivo goes down the that path then I will just cancel cable and do without. I already have more than I can watch off of YouTube and Prime Video which is essentially free since it's bundled with Prime. I wouldn't pay for it separately. If I was going to pay for anything it would be to YouTube to kill the ads.


I switched to mostly streaming last year because of the terrible FiOS video quality now. Not quite as bad as Comcast yet, but they are racing to get down to their level. The current FiOS video quality is nothing like it was back in 2007 or even 2014. My FIOS recordings from back then put to shame anything FiOS broadcasts now.

All the streaming options I chose was to avoid commercials. And the video quality is much better than what FiOS has now. I mainly use Philo for $16 a month which allows me to avoid all commercials. And then Hulu commercial free which I get the gift cards when discounted. Then I subscribe to CBS AA, HBO, Showtime etc. as needed. So they also give me discounts when I come back to subscribe. Like Starz gave me six months for $1 a month or CBS AA gives me a few months at half price to come back.. And then some shows, like from the CW or syfy, I buy outright. Since no broadcast streaming service has the CW shows commercial free. I use FiOS now for mainly news programs. But even that is hard to watch with the poor quality.

So I get much better video quality than what I get with FiOS. And as icing on the cake, I pay less than I did when I had the Ultimate HD tier. I dropped down to Custom TV. And kept the Gigabit Internet and phone service. So now I pay around $90 a month after all taxes, cable card, and fees compared to the $155 a month I paid when I had the Ultimate HD tier.


----------



## dishrich

aaronwt said:


> I thought they didn't have a choice? that the two systems were completely different and not compatible with each other?


The ONLY satellite radios that ARE compatible with both systems, ARE the ones that are actually branded *"SiriusXM"*. Otherwise none of the single service branded radios either "Sirius" or "XM", will NOT work on each other's systems. Right here from the horses mouth:
What is the difference between Sirius, XM, and SiriusXM radios?


----------



## krkaufman

Ok, really, the satellite radio discussion couldn’t take place in another thread, let alone another sub-forum?


----------



## foghorn2

krkaufman said:


> Ok, really, the satellite radio discussion couldn't take place in another thread, let alone another sub-forum?


My 70's Pinto with the best AM radio of all time never exploded either, no matter how many times it was rear ended. 

(please keep liking and replying to this thread, it makes that red blob on the upper right and makes it more exciting here, how long will this go? nobody knows! )


----------



## JoeKustra

krkaufman said:


> Ok, really, the satellite radio discussion couldn't take place in another thread, let alone another sub-forum?


If the TCF people organized, may we could make a change. Like, any two off-topic posts sequentially lock the thread for ten days.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> I thought they didn't have a choice? that the two systems were completely different and not compatible with each other?


I think the idea was that if they had started putting both in every radio when they merged, 15 or 20 years after that point, they could de-duplicate the two systems and use them in parallel to have more bandwidth available. My counterpoint was that it would take a very, very long time since a lot of the receivers are built into cars, boats, RVs, etc.


----------



## Joe3

BillyClyde said:


> I think the new Beta Channels TV Everywhere (TVE) integration is the real game changer here lately.
> 
> NEW: TV Everywhere Support (BETA)
> 
> If TiVo goes to Android based and can run the Channels App then all you'd need is the DVR server (if it can't run on the TiVo) and then connect an OTA antenna for the locals, then subscribe to PS Vue, Philo or use a TVE login from cable/satellite for your cable type channels and you'd have a fully integrated lineup for way cheap ($8/month for Channels DVR plus whatever TVE host costs)
> 
> I just tried it yesterday and it's pretty dang sweet! The quality is surprisingly good (1080p, 720p). Some channels looked better than from my MSO's feed!
> 
> P.S. - It also has Auto-Skip for commercials!


Wait a gosh darn minute here.

This TV Everywhere should change TiVo's old game plan, (besides the fact the old plan never worked) but not with the weak specs they released for this new Series 7 TiVo Edge. TV Everywhere "kind-a" dulls the edge a bit, competition wise don't you think~


----------



## Dan203

Joe3 said:


> but not with the weak specs they released for this new Series 7 TiVo Edge.


What "weak specs" have been released for the Edge? AFAIK all we have is an FCC filing with minor information about the hardware like number of tuners and number of MAC addresses. We have no idea what the actual hardware is yet.


----------



## Joe3

Dan203 said:


> What "weak specs" have been released for the Edge? AFAIK all we have is an FCC filing with minor information about the hardware like number of tuners and number of MAC addresses. We have no idea what the actual hardware is yet.


I hate to go back and read too. But the hard drive is smaller and processor is just an iddy biddy tweak up to support Dolby Vision. The TiVo company is just breaking my heart that they have go down the cheapskate way.

Right off the bat, they point the gun to their foot waiting for the big guy to yell, fire, again.

Other than that, you are absolutely right, hopefully, so far, this is a small bit of information about the hardware, number of tuners, and number of MAC addresses. And yes, we have no idea what the actual hardware is yet. But TiVo has that funny competition, what competition going. As if some big guy says, we don't need worry about good specs at the foundation, we don't need to worry about any stinking competition. We're ****ing TiVo, god damn it!


----------



## Dan203

I'm still holding out hope that this is their Android TV device for retail. I think that would be a real game changer for TiVo if they could harness the power of all the Android apps out there.


----------



## Joe3

Dan203 said:


> I'm still holding out hope that this is their Android TV device for retail. I think that would be a real game changer for TiVo if they could harness the power of all the Android apps out there.


Yes, this is what TiVo said in Las Vegas earlier this year. Also, the TiVo apps for the streaming providers.


----------



## BillyClyde

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, but as you say, you can just get your own HDHomeRun OTA (or CableCARD) tuners to work with Channels, so you don't need the TiVo for that. As for using the TiVo UI, Channels wouldn't agree to pass the video streams and controls from inside their own app over to the TiVo UI. And even if they did, would you want to pay the monthly fee for both Channels DVR service AND TiVo DVR service? Nah, doesn't make sense.
> 
> But hey, maybe TiVo will figure out a way to integrate browser-based TV Everywhere streams into their own system, just as Channels has done. Not sure that would be possible without the use of a network-connected PC or Mac, which seems rather un-TiVo-like, but who knows...


That was kind of my point. That TiVo could do the same thing Channels is doing with TVE if they go Android. If they do go Android they wouldn't need an external PC to run the server. It could be hosted on the TiVo just like the Shield does.

Nothing says Channels and TiVo couldn't partner up either.



Dan203 said:


> I'm still holding out hope that this is their Android TV device for retail. I think that would be a real game changer for TiVo if they could harness the power of all the Android apps out there.


Including a Channels TV style integration with the TVE OTT content for their OTA TiVo.


----------



## foghorn2

Joe3 said:


> Yes, this is what TiVo said in* Los Vegas* earlier this year. Also, the TiVo apps for the streaming providers.


I did not know that Ridgefield fissured so much we melded with the 2nd largest city in the US. :smiley:

With YouTube back on the FireTv, and with Kodi for streaming from a NAS, Im pretty much done with any streaming device. TiVo and FireTv, thats all Ill ever need.


----------



## mschnebly

krkaufman said:


> Ok, really, the satellite radio discussion couldn't take place in another thread, let alone another sub-forum?


Just wondering... Do you like the Tuna in a can or the kind in those little pouches?


----------



## JLV03

Not to derail the thread anymore from the upcoming TiVo, but while doing some more research on the Channels integration with TV Everywhere I stumbled across another app to try on a FireTV Stick: FitzyTV

FitzyTV - Live TV & Cloud DVR

I'm going to give it a try one of these days.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> What "weak specs" have been released for the Edge? AFAIK all we have is an FCC filing with minor information about the hardware like number of tuners and number of MAC addresses. We have no idea what the actual hardware is yet.


My own speculation is that it's going to have a small CPU bump (~25%) rather than the 3x we usually get with each new generation. Broadcom doesn't really have anything that powerful. There is the old BCM7445 that is about 2x, but it's 6 years old at this point.

Specifically I am kind of looking at the BCM7271 since that chip runs Tivo's Android boxes from Arris, Technicolor and Evolution Digital.

^^ Complete and utter WAG, though.

My fingers are CROSSED about Android, but I can't help but be pessimistic. It's a lot of code to port, and Tivo is Tivo. If it's not Android (or they haven't partnered with some other app platform) then it's a useless update for me. I'm not going to give them an interest-free loan in those hopes of DV support coming to four apps in 4 years. They can suck that.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My own speculation is that it's going to have a small CPU bump (~25%) rather than the 3x we usually get with each new generation. Broadcom doesn't really have anything that powerful. There is the old BCM7445 that is about 2x, but it's 6 years old at this point.
> 
> Specifically I am kind of looking at the BCM7271 since that chip runs Tivo's Android boxes from Arris, Technicolor and Evolution Digital.
> 
> ^^ Complete and utter WAG, though.
> 
> My fingers are CROSSED about Android, but I can't help but be pessimistic. It's a lot of code to port, and Tivo is Tivo. If it's not Android (or they haven't partnered with some other app platform) then it's a useless update for me. I'm not going to give Tivo an interest-free loan in those hopes of DV support coming to four apps in 4 years. They can suck that.


If it's based on Android TV do they need to keep using Broadcom chips? Aren't there other suppliers that make ARM chips that'll run Android TV?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> If it's based on Android TV do they need to keep using Broadcom chips? Aren't there other suppliers that make ARM chips that'll run Android TV?


They probably don't need to, but Broadcom seems to be Arris's go-to as well.


----------



## Joe3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> My own speculation is that it's going to have a small CPU bump (~25%) rather than the 3x we usually get with each new generation. Broadcom doesn't really have anything that powerful. There is the old BCM7445 that is about 2x, but it's 6 years old at this point.
> 
> Specifically I am kind of looking at the BCM7271 since that chip runs Tivo's Android boxes from Arris, Technicolor and Evolution Digital.
> 
> ^^ Complete and utter WAG, though.
> 
> My fingers are CROSSED about Android, but I can't help but be pessimistic. It's a lot of code to port, and Tivo is Tivo. If it's not Android (or they haven't partnered with some other app platform) then it's a useless update for me. I'm not going to give them an interest-free loan in those hopes of DV support coming to four apps in 4 years. They can suck that.


Is TiVo still making deals with the Ukraine for knockoffs of the *Commodore 64* chip and defending it by saying, "Well, that's a chip too you know."

How old is the BCM7271?


----------



## tarheelblue32

Bigg said:


> I think the idea was that if they had started putting both in every radio when they merged, 15 or 20 years after that point, they could de-duplicate the two systems and use them in parallel to have more bandwidth available. My counterpoint was that it would take a very, very long time since a lot of the receivers are built into cars, boats, RVs, etc.


The average age of a car in the U.S. is 11 years, and I highly doubt that most people driving around an old beater that's >15 years old are activating the satellite radios in their car anyways. If SiriusXM had started the process of making all new satellite radios XM back when they merged, they would probably only be a few years away from being able to shut down the Sirius side by now.


----------



## randian

tarheelblue32 said:


> If SiriusXM had started the process of making all new satellite radios XM back when they merged, they would probably only be a few years away from being able to shut down the Sirius side by now.


I doubt the executives were listening to the engineers. Pretty standard at most companies.


----------



## Mikeguy

tarheelblue32 said:


> The average age of a car in the U.S. is 11 years, and I highly doubt that most people driving around an old beater that's >15 years old are activating the satellite radios in their car anyways. If SiriusXM had started the process of making all new satellite radios XM back when they merged, they would probably only be a few years away from being able to shut down the Sirius side by now.


I'm lucky that my 2002 VW Cabrio has both am and fm.


----------



## gemini929

Do we think the TiVo edge will drive a refresh of the mini as well?


----------



## OrangeCrush

Dan203 said:


> If it's based on Android TV do they need to keep using Broadcom chips? Aren't there other suppliers that make ARM chips that'll run Android TV?


Certainly, but there's a lot more variability in the ARM world between chip makers--bus implementations, interfaces and other peripheral components surrounding the ARM cores as well as quirks in the ARM cores themselves. An Android image built for a Broadcom SoC won't even boot on a Qualcomm SoC. It's gotten better w/ Project Treble, but there's still a not-insignificant amount of low-level work to be done to make it all work, which is a big part of the problem w/ timely Android updates.


----------



## SullyND

gemini929 said:


> Do we think the TiVo edge will drive a refresh of the mini as well?


The current mini is already a rebranded Arris is it not?


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> They probably don't need to, but Broadcom seems to be Arris's go-to as well.


The current product they're offering says it's compatible with 3 devices, all running the same Broadcom SOC. So there does seems to be a Broadcom link.

I wonder why though? If they're just writing Android software that runs on top of the Android TV platform it should run on any Android TV device shouldn't it? Unless stuff like encryption and transcoding runs at such a low level that they can only support the Broadcom SOC.


----------



## NashGuy

SullyND said:


> The current mini is already a rebranded Arris is it not?


I think that's right.



Dan203 said:


> The current product they're offering says it's compatible with 3 devices, all running the same Broadcom SOC. So there does seems to be a Broadcom link.
> 
> I wonder why though? If they're just writing Android software that runs on top of the Android TV platform it should run on any Android TV device shouldn't it? Unless stuff like encryption and transcoding runs at such a low level that they can only support the Broadcom SOC.


Simplest answer: because the TiVo Edge isn't going to run Android TV.


----------



## OrangeCrush

NashGuy said:


> Simplest answer: because the TiVo Edge isn't going to run Android TV.


Does the Android version of their stack even *do *local DVR stuff? Or is it really just a streaming cable app w/ a Tivo UI papered over it?


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> Simplest answer: because the TiVo Edge isn't going to run Android TV.


Maybe, but there is some circumstantial evidence that it's at least possible it could be Android TV. Including some comments by TiVo employees at this years CES. So I'm still holding out hope.



OrangeCrush said:


> Does the Android version of their stack even *do *local DVR stuff? Or is it really just a streaming cable app w/ a Tivo UI papered over it?


Android TV has a built in DVR API. I'm not sure how robust it is, or if TiVo would actually want to use it, but it's possible they could.

The current Android TV offering by TiVo uses an external DVR like a cloud DVR or IP VOD style. There is no internal DVR functionality. So we don't know yet how, or even if, it'll work.


----------



## Bigg

tarheelblue32 said:


> The average age of a car in the U.S. is 11 years, and I highly doubt that most people driving around an old beater that's >15 years old are activating the satellite radios in their car anyways. If SiriusXM had started the process of making all new satellite radios XM back when they merged, they would probably only be a few years away from being able to shut down the Sirius side by now.


There probably are some older cars still listening. Don't forget about boats and RVs and such.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Bigg said:


> There probably are some older cars still listening. Don't forget about boats and RVs and such.


I'm sure there are a few after 15 years, but not many. They would be relatively insignificant as a source of revenue. And if you absolutely just have to have your satellite radio in your 16-year-old boat, you can always pay to have the satellite radio replaced. It's not like it's impossible to do.


----------



## foghorn2

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm sure there are a few after 15 years, but not many. They would be relatively insignificant as a source of revenue. And if you absolutely just have to have your satellite radio in your 16-year-_old boat_, you can always pay to have the satellite radio replaced. It's not like it's impossible to do.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm sure there are a few after 15 years, but not many. They would be relatively insignificant as a source of revenue. And if you absolutely just have to have your satellite radio in your 16-year-old boat, you can always pay to have the satellite radio replaced. It's not like it's impossible to do.


They could give plenty of notice. Just send out letters and emails saying... "we're discontinuing support for XM only radios starting next year, if you have one of these radios you'll need to upgrade to continue service". (I'm not sure which one is actually better Sirius or XM, so not sure which one they would keep in a transition)


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> They could give plenty of notice. Just send out letters and emails saying... "we're discontinuing support for XM only radios starting next year, if you have one of these radios you'll need to upgrade to continue service". (I'm not sure which one is actually better Sirius or XM, so not sure which one they would keep in a transition)


From what I've read, XM is the better technology, but regardless they should have just picked one and gone with it after the merger.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm sure there are a few after 15 years, but not many. They would be relatively insignificant as a source of revenue. And if you absolutely just have to have your satellite radio in your 16-year-old boat, you can always pay to have the satellite radio replaced. It's not like it's impossible to do.


I have the stock Sirius radio in my 2010 Wrangler Unlimited JK but why should I replace it, it does everything I need? I'm sure many boat and RV owners have similar feelings.


----------



## ej42137

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I have the stock Sirius radio in my 2010 Wrangler Unlimited JK but why should I replace it, it does everything I need? I'm sure many boat and RV owners have similar feelings.


Perhaps you haven't been following; you would want to replace it to keep receiving broadcasts, if and when the service changes. Just like we TiVo users might want to buy a Roku when TiVo stops updating their guide.


----------



## tarheelblue32

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I have the stock Sirius radio in my 2010 Wrangler Unlimited JK but why should I replace it, it does everything I need? I'm sure many boat and RV owners have similar feelings.


The point was that if it no longer functioned because SiriusXM had shut down the Sirius satellite broadcasts at some point after the merger, then you might have been inclined to replace it.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

tarheelblue32 said:


> The point was that if it no longer functioned because SiriusXM had shut down the Sirius satellite broadcasts at some point after the merger, then you might have been inclined to replace it.


No I get that, I just don't think there is a demand for even more satellite programming or increase in quality to necessitate SiriusXM shutting down the old system.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> They could give plenty of notice. Just send out letters and emails saying... "we're discontinuing support for XM only radios starting next year, if you have one of these radios you'll need to upgrade to continue service". (I'm not sure which one is actually better Sirius or XM, so not sure which one they would keep in a transition)


The idea was that they would keep both, new radios would do both, but they could de-duplicated the programming and either add more programming or use higher bitrates or some combination of the two. Of course, they could also have gone that route, and then duplicated a "core" package of content, with some other content only available on one or the other, and de-duplicated over time so that people with old radios would lose some but not all content. There's various ways to slice and dice it.


----------



## tarheelblue32

PSU_Sudzi said:


> No I get that, I just don't think there is a demand for even more satellite programming or increase in quality to necessitate SiriusXM shutting down the old system.


Well I can give you one example that has directly impacted me before. There are lots of college football games that SiriusXM has the rights to broadcast the audio feed to, but because of lack of bandwidth they aren't able to broadcast all the ones they have the rights to. It has resulted in me not being able to listen to the games I want to hear on more than one occasion.

And in regards to audio quality, people complain all the time about the audio quality of satellite radio because of the over-compression. When satellite radio first came out, they advertised it as "CD-quality audio", and it certainly can be when they don't limit the bitrate. But they've crammed so many channels into their limited bandwidth that audio quality on many of their channels has suffered. Shutting down the Sirius side and re-purposing that bandwidth would solve those problems.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

TonyD79 said:


> According to the Sirius XM page, a 2019 Jeep gets the Sirius XM package which is the combined package. Same as I have on my Honda Accord.


For whatever its worth, I upgraded my Wrangler to the Sirius All Access Plan and it still does not have MLB radio (Channel 89 on my XM units) and all of my XM units with the max package do not have NFL radio, very odd.


----------



## pj1983

tarheelblue32 said:


> The average age of a car in the U.S. is 11 years, and I highly doubt that most people driving around an old beater that's >15 years old are activating the satellite radios in their car anyways. If SiriusXM had started the process of making all new satellite radios XM back when they merged, they would probably only be a few years away from being able to shut down the Sirius side by now.


Chicken and the egg, sort of. The factory Sirius radio in my 2005 Chrysler doesn't get all the channels (I mentioned this in the SiriusXM pricing thread) so I have no incentive to turn it on. If Chrysler or SiriusXM made a drop-in replacement for the satellite portion of the system, I'd consider buying it. Otherwise, I'm stuck with a forklift upgrade of the entire factory system to an aftermarket system using the generic satellite adapter SiriusXM sells, or I can use an external plug-in unit with the existing stock radio. The former is too much work and the latter looks awful, so Sirius ends up losing a subscription. Maybe that's the intent, as you point out, just as TiVo is trying to get everyone to move to Bolts through a variety of incentives.

To the OP's original point and topic, I'm not sure I'll be buying a series 7 when it's released. I already put too much work into the TiVo ecosystem, for something that's supposed to be "plug and play".


----------



## Davelnlr_

dishrich said:


> The ONLY satellite radios that ARE compatible with both systems, ARE the ones that are actually branded *"SiriusXM"*. Otherwise none of the single service branded radios either "Sirius" or "XM", will NOT work on each other's systems. Right here from the horses mouth:
> What is the difference between Sirius, XM, and SiriusXM radios?


I have a Sirius in dash, and an XM portable MP3i. I listen to the in dash during the free weeks, but I can honestly say, while driving around town, The Sirius radio blanks out and says Acquiring Satellite at least 3 times in my 15 minute drive home, whereas my XM portable NEVER blanks out except if I get stopped at a red light under a bridge. So, I never even considered subscribing to Sirius with that radio.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Tivo Edge name has been trademarked in the past week.

Also on record is a Tivo Bridge Plus -- Guessing that's a bonded 2.0 moca adapter.

(apptivo entry is not for tivo.)


----------



## krkaufman

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Also on record is a Tivo Bridge Plus -- Guessing that's a bonded 2.0 moca adapter?


Makes sense. Likely a rebranded Actiontec ECB6200; as Actiontec doesn't appear to be offering the ECB6000, anymore.


----------



## gemini929

krkaufman said:


> Makes sense. Likely a rebranded Actiontec ECB6200; as Actiontec doesn't appear to be offering the ECB6000, anymore.


TIVO ENHANCED?


----------



## jaselzer

Is this the mini wireless adapter perhaps?


----------



## gemini929

Is there a way to back into when the TiVo BOLT name was trademarked and when the product was actually released?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

gemini929 said:


> TIVO ENHANCED?


Branding logo used for licensing deals.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

gemini929 said:


> Is there a way to back into when the TiVo BOLT name was trademarked and when the product was actually released?


Registered June 14, 2016. Launched end of September.

The Vox line was registered a month before launch. And the Roamio name was registered after the launch. So there's nothing particularly consistent.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jaselzer said:


> Is this the mini wireless adapter perhaps?


Probably not? Did some more digging: "ethernet-over-coaxial adapters; digital electronic devices for networking digital video recorders"

Wifi or wireless doesn't seem to be a tag.

But yeah, that Mini wireless thing is due too.


----------



## jaselzer

Past due!


----------



## Dan203

Maybe it just doesn't have a fancy name they need to trademark?


----------



## Mikeguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo Edge name has been trademarked in the past week.
> 
> Also on record is a Tivo Bridge Plus -- Guessing that's a bonded 2.0 moca adapter.
> 
> (apptivo entry is not for tivo.)
> 
> View attachment 42198


Correction/clarification: applications for the registration of various TIVO EDGE trademarks have been filed. And note: none has been granted (trademark applications filed at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office go through a rigorous review process--it is not at all automatic).


----------



## Dan203

Since they have a trademark on "TiVo" would anyone else really be able to use the term "TiVo Edge" anyway?


----------



## gemini929

Looks like Tivo’s Are ~25% off. Could this be the sell off of inventory before a refresh?


----------



## gemini929

gemini929 said:


> Looks like Tivo's Are ~25% off. Could this be the sell off of inventory before a refresh?


May have spoke to soon. Mini's aren't on sale and the cable boxes are receiving the same discount


----------



## Mikeguy

gemini929 said:


> Looks like Tivo's Are ~25% off. Could this be the sell off of inventory before a refresh?


Where are you seeing that?


----------



## Mikeguy

Dan203 said:


> Since they have a trademark on "TiVo" would anyone else really be able to use the term "TiVo Edge" anyway?


Not TIVO EDGE, but certainly EDGE if they had rights to it before TiVo (and then being able to stop TiVo from using TIVO EDGE), in the same or a related product/services field.


----------



## gemini929

Mikeguy said:


> Where are you seeing that?


Bolt OTA, Amazon, Bestbuy etc


----------



## Dan203

Mikeguy said:


> Not TIVO EDGE, but certainly EDGE if they had rights to it before TiVo (and then being able to stop TiVo from using TIVO EDGE), in the same or a related product/services field.


That's such a basic word in the English language I can't see how someone could get a trademark on just "edge".


----------



## Mikeguy

Dan203 said:


> That's such a basic word in the English language I can't see how someone could get a trademark on just "edge".


In checking just now, there are 117 current, distinct federal registrations for the trademark EDGE. This doesn't include registrations that were granted previously but since have expired, or registrations that include the term "Edge" with other components. 

The earliest of the lot (with which I'm personally aware, as one of its consumers):


> *Word Mark * EDGE
> *Goods and Services* IC 003. US 051. G & S: SHAVE CREAM. FIRST USE: 19680821. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19680821
> *Mark Drawing Code* (1) TYPED DRAWING
> *Serial Number* 72313705
> *Filing Date* December 5, 1968
> *Current Basis* 1A
> *Original Filing Basis* 1A
> *Registration Number* 0897059
> *Registration Date* August 18, 1970
> *Owner* (REGISTRANT) S. C. JOHNSON & SON, INC. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 1525 HOWE STREET RACINE WISCONSIN 534032236


----------



## Dan203

Mikeguy said:


> In checking just now, there are 117 current, distinct federal registrations for the trademark EDGE. This doesn't include registrations that were granted previously but since have expired, or registrations that include the term "Edge" with other components.
> 
> The earliest of the lot (with which I'm personally aware, as one of its consumers):


I just meant the word "edge" all by itself.


----------



## Mikeguy

Dan203 said:


> I just meant the word "edge" all by itself.


Yep--my earlier info. was for the word "Edge" alone.


----------



## randyb359

Dan203 said:


> That's such a basic word in the English language I can't see how someone could get a trademark on just "edge".


Ford stole the letter e


----------



## JoeKustra

Dan203 said:


> I just meant the word "edge" all by itself.


I don't think you could get a copyright on "Edge" if it was for a DVR. If it was a lawnmower, then yes.


----------



## longrider

JoeKustra said:


> I don't think you could get a copyright on "Edge" if it was for a DVR. If it was a lawnmower, then yes.


That is how it works, just like how UPS has trademarked the color brown. That just means no other package delivery service can use brown, any other use of brown is fine


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> I don't think you could get a copyright on "Edge" if it was for a DVR. If it was a lawnmower, then yes.


Why not? Is there another, previous DVR (or another product or service in a nearby field) that has used and is using the word "edge"?


----------



## ej42137

Mikeguy said:


> Why not? Is there another, previous DVR (or another product or service in a nearby field) that has used and is using the word "edge"?


You do realize you are arguing legal technicalities with someone who doesn't know the difference between copyright and trademark?


----------



## Mikeguy

ej42137 said:


> You do realize you are arguing legalities with someone who doesn't know the difference between copyright and trademark?


Truly, am not trying to argue--was just thinking that he might know something about a competing trademark and use. But you did remind me (I had forgotten to add it):

@JoeKustra, you meant trademark, not copyright. Trademark: think a brand name, like POST-IT notes; copyright: think a work of some sort evincing creativity (even if very basic), like "Gone with the Wind."


----------



## DocNo

NashGuy said:


> Hey, isn't that cartoon character in your avatar The Tick? He had a 2-season live action series (in 4K HDR!) on Amazon Prime Video. But you probably didn't see it since you think streaming sucks.


Oh I watched it since I also have Prime. And am rather disappointed it was canceled. But the overall experience isn't as nice as content I record on my Tivo. Forced ads you can't skip at the start, and again if you want to just back up to catch something you missed sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't recover, sometimes it recovers after a long pause; usually it's way more trouble than it's worth. So much so it's easer to pretend the feature doesn't exist. Just soldier on and march forward.

However, with content recorded on my Tivo, when I push the button to jump back a few seconds _it works every time_. I don't have to think about it. If I think "what was that?" I just push the button and it works.

When I say streaming sucks, that's what I'm referring to. The overall _experience_ of streaming sucks. I'm spoiled by Tivo. When someone delivers a streaming client that's as reliable, robust and _*seamless*_ as Tivo - I'll be the first in line. There's no reason it couldn't be reliable. Most of the reasons it isn't are stupid and arbitrary rules born from people more concerned about maximizing shareholder value vs. delivering an awesome customer service (BTW - delivering awesome customer experiences happen to be the BEST way to deliver maximum shareholder value too - just look at Apple, Costco and a few other companies that have figured it out).

One clear advantage of streaming - 4K. 4K streaming looks way better than what my parents get through DirectTV's 4K. I don't have 4K through FIOS - not using any FIOS equipment and even if the Bolt can do 4K it's not on my only 4K TV, but reading through threads here FIOS still compresses the heck out of 4K :/

Pricing on Streaming isn't so hot either, and it's rapidly getting worse as everyone and their brother is trying to peal their content off onto their own services. Bah - a pox on all their houses.


----------



## randian

DocNo said:


> Pricing on Streaming isn't so hot either, and it's rapidly getting worse as everyone and their brother is trying to peal their content off onto their own services. Bah - a pox on all their houses.


Studios are not brands. Does anybody really care if the movie you're watching is Paramount vs Warner Bros? The studios used to have their own movie sales portals, like Paramount Movies and Sony Pictures Store. They're all dead, killed in my opinion by the one stop convenience of iTunes and Vudu. It's not clear to me why the studios think that studio-specific streaming portals will be the ticket to success when their sales portals were duds.

I'm not even convinced that CBS All Access is successful. Their foray into original programming is none too great, and if you're like me you aren't a CBS fan, you're a fan of particular shows, which can be on any network. At best I view CBSAA as a one month a year thing: binge watch what you need to and be done. You will notice that the other networks haven't imitated them.


----------



## JoeKustra

Mikeguy said:


> Truly, am not trying to argue--was just thinking that he might know something about a competing trademark and use. But you did remind me (I had forgotten to add it):
> 
> @JoeKustra, you meant trademark, not copyright. Trademark: think a brand name, like POST-IT notes; copyright: think a work of some sort evincing creativity (even if very basic), like "Gone with the Wind."


Sorry, I'm not smart enough to participate. I can use Goggle, so I learned the differences between trademark and copyright. Now to make a Xerox of the page and Scotch Tape it to my wall. 

Some commercials of UPS used "Brown". I like that example.


----------



## chiguy50

JoeKustra said:


> Sorry, I'm not smart enough to participate. *I can use Goggle*, so I learned the differences between trademark and copyright. Now to make a Xerox of the page and Scotch Tape it to my wall.


And please do make sure to wear your Google goggles to read it!


----------



## krkaufman

Mikeguy said:


> Trademark: think a brand name, like ...


SiriusXM.


----------



## tarheelblue32

randian said:


> Studios are not brands. Does anybody really care if the movie you're watching is Paramount vs Warner Bros?


Actually, when I watched Disney's first Star Wars movie in the theater and the 20th Century Fox logo and fanfare wasn't there at the beginning, I did miss it.


----------



## NashGuy

DocNo said:


> Oh I watched it since I also have Prime. And am rather disappointed it was canceled. But the overall experience isn't as nice as content I record on my Tivo. Forced ads you can't skip at the start, and again if you want to just back up to catch something you missed sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't recover, sometimes it recovers after a long pause; usually it's way more trouble than it's worth. So much so it's easer to pretend the feature doesn't exist. Just soldier on and march forward.
> 
> However, with content recorded on my Tivo, when I push the button to jump back a few seconds _it works every time_. I don't have to think about it. If I think "what was that?" I just push the button and it works.


Get an Apple TV 4K. Seriously. It's awesome. When I left-click to jump back 10 seconds, it resumes playing even faster than my old TiVo Roamio did, at least as long as I don't stack more than 3 jump-back presses together. Going back more than 30 seconds does cause a momentarily rebuffering pause but it's typically still 1 second or less. Also, I can press the Siri button and ask "What did she say?" and it'll jump back about 15 seconds and replay the scene with captions automatically turned on, then turn them off at the end of that bit.



DocNo said:


> One clear advantage of streaming - 4K. 4K streaming looks way better than what my parents get through DirectTV's 4K.


Yep. I've been enjoying Stranger Things 3 lately and the 4K HDR looks so beautiful. "Why doesn't all TV look this way in 2019?" I think.


----------



## bobfrank

randian said:


> Studios are not brands. Does anybody really care if the movie you're watching is Paramount vs Warner Bros? *The studios used to have their own movie sales portals, like Paramount Movies and Sony Pictures Store.* They're all dead, killed in my opinion by the one stop convenience of iTunes and Vudu. It's not clear to me why the studios think that studio-specific streaming portals will be the ticket to success when their sales portals were duds.
> 
> I'm not even convinced that CBS All Access is successful. Their foray into original programming is none too great, and if you're like me you aren't a CBS fan, you're a fan of particular shows, which can be on any network. At best I view CBSAA as a one month a year thing: binge watch what you need to and be done. You will notice that the other networks haven't imitated them.


Go back even further and movie studios owned, outright or in partnership, their own movie theaters. Independent theaters weren't allowed to show those studio's films. This was banned by the Supreme Court in 1948( United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. - Wikipedia. )

I wonder if this will happen to the streaming services. Disney content will soon be available only on the Disney streaming service, for example. Sounds a lot like the old movie theater monopoly.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually, when I watched Disney's first Star Wars movie in the theater and the 20th Century Fox logo and fanfare wasn't there at the beginning, I did miss it.


This! I wish Disney somehow bought the rights to use this intro music for Star Wars.


----------



## tarheelblue32

PSU_Sudzi said:


> This! I wish Disney somehow bought the rights to use this intro music for Star Wars.


I think I read that the first half of the fanfare is off copyright, but the second half was added later, so is still under copyright. However, Disney did buy 20th Century Fox earlier this year, so I assume they now own the rights to the copyrighted portion of the music, as well as the Fox logo.


----------



## Diana Collins

randian said:


> Studios are not brands. Does anybody really care if the movie you're watching is Paramount vs Warner Bros? The studios used to have their own movie sales portals, like Paramount Movies and Sony Pictures Store. They're all dead, killed in my opinion by the one stop convenience of iTunes and Vudu. It's not clear to me why the studios think that studio-specific streaming portals will be the ticket to success when their sales portals were duds.


What's different is that back then they didn't pull the content from other outlets. Now, if you want to watch Star Trek Discovery or Picard next year, you have NO CHOICE but to subscribe to CBS All Access. If you want to see The Mandalorian or the conclusion of Star Wars Rebels you will HAVE TO subscribe to Disney Plus. To see Stranger Things you MUST subscribe to Netflix.



bobfrank said:


> Go back even further and movie studios owned, outright or in partnership, their own movie theaters. Independent theaters weren't allowed to show those studio's films. This was banned by the Supreme Court in 1948( United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. - Wikipedia. )
> 
> I wonder if this will happen to the streaming services. Disney content will soon be available only on the Disney streaming service, for example. Sounds a lot like the old movie theater monopoly.


Exactly, and the ownership of the theaters by the studios was finally ended by federal regulation. Lacking similar action by the government (not very likely these days) this is exactly where we are headed. Rules on limits of TV station ownership are being rolled back and more and more vertical integration is happening.


----------



## SullyND

randian said:


> Studios are not brands. Does anybody really care if the movie you're watching is Paramount vs Warner Bros?


Pixar?


----------



## Dan203

I didn’t realize trademarks were product specific. I thought they were universal. So does that mean I could create a car company and call it TiVo since it isn’t directly competing with the TiVo DVR?


----------



## lessd

Dan203 said:


> I didn't realize trademarks were product specific. I thought they were universal. So does that mean I could create a car company and call it TiVo since it isn't directly competing with the TiVo DVR?


Look at the lexisnexis case, lexisnexis is about law, Lexis is a car, Lexis lost in court as the court did not think that somebody looking a new Lexis would go to a law directory (lexisnexis) for their car.


----------



## Dan203

lessd said:


> Look at the lexisnexis case, lexisnexis is about law, Lexis is a car, Lexis lost in court as the court did not think that somebody looking a new Lexis would go to a law directory (lexisnexis) for their car.


Interesting. I didn't realize that's how it worked.


----------



## trip1eX

the car is a Lexus though. not a Lexis.  The law solution website is lexisnexis.

The use of a similar name to the one you have trademarked is pretty well protected.

I think the cases where it isn't are when the names are common names or to be shown to be different enough in different businesses that the two don't interfere with each other. Also when the business was started I believe has some precedent. 

Roughly if someone starts up a compnay named Apple on the west coast and some small business is called Apple this or that on the east coast. And they went decades without realizing the other existed....and they are in unrelated businesses then doubt either has a claim on the other. That's my understanding of it at least. It's grey area. I think it's all about how good the argument behind the claim is.


----------



## trip1eX

OH and obviously Tivo will have to deal with U2 in order to secure the Edge trademark.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> the car is a Lexus though. not a Lexis.  The law solution website is lexisnexis.
> 
> The use of a similar name to the one you have trademarked is pretty well protected.


So does that mean I could call my new DVR a TeVo Edge?


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> the car is a Lexus though. not a Lexis.  The law solution website is lexisnexis.
> 
> The use of a similar name to the one you have trademarked is pretty well protected.


So does that mean I could call my new DVR a TeVo Edge?


----------



## krkaufman

trip1eX said:


> the car is a Lexus though. not a Lexis.


Right.

Lexus totally should have started a user forum community called Lexus Nexus.


----------



## longrider

If you want some good reading on trademarks, look up Monster Cable. While they have valid trademarks in the AV area they will sue anybody using the term "monster" Think monster.com, Monster Energy, etc.


----------



## Mikeguy

Dan203 said:


> I didn't realize trademarks were product specific. I thought they were universal. So does that mean I could create a car company and call it TiVo since it isn't directly competing with the TiVo DVR?





Dan203 said:


> So does that mean I could call my new DVR a TeVo Edge?


The bottom-line consideration for trademark rights is, is there a reasonable likelihood of confusion. Lots of factors have been identified as influencing that, including: the closeness or not of the competing marks (generally, in sight and sound, but depending on the mark, it could extend to other factors, such as smell (really--there is a solder company that has a trademark registration for the bubblegum smell of its solder)), the closeness or not of the goods or services with which the competing marks are used, geographic overlap or not, how careful consumers might or might not be, the breadth or not of the field of use of the marks, the extent or not of other similar marks, and on and on.

And so, if I'm coming out with a new computer, I certainly can't call it an Apple computer, or an Appel computer (people aren't going to "hear" the different spelling in conversation). And I probably can't call my new computer model a Gravenstein--people might reasonably assume that Apple has branched into another apple variety for a new computer. But yes, you might get away with calling your new car model "the Apple" (but I wouldn't try)--the only reason I say "might" is, the Apple trademark is so strong that it is given wider berth, and consumers seeing "the Apple" car might be confused into thinking that Apple has expanded into cars, as there have been rumors and just as it expanded from computers to audio players to phones to watches.

United Airlines and United Van Lines have been allowed to co-exist--the idea _at the time _was, someone using "United" on a moving service wouldn't confuse people into thinking that it was the same company as the airline, as the fields are so distinct. But that was in a different era of commerce, and the answer today might be different, as there's been more integration and expansion of businesses.

Please don't try calling your new DVR a TeVo Edge.


----------



## Mikeguy

longrider said:


> If you want some good reading on trademarks, look up Monster Cable. While they have valid trademarks in the AV area they will sue anybody using the term "monster" Think monster.com, Monster Energy, etc.


While Monster Cable may sue a lot, that doesn't mean it's going to win. I think that there's little reasonable likelihood of confusion between the use of "monster" for a/v cables and the use of "monster" for an energy drink--consumers aren't likely to consider that it's the same company. From some quick looking just now, I found an article saying that a challenge between the companies hasn't occurred.


----------



## Mikeguy

krkaufman said:


> Right.
> 
> Lexus totally should have started a user forum community called Lexus Nexus.


Good one.


----------



## trip1eX

Dan203 said:


> So does that mean I could call my new DVR a TeVo Edge?


You need to ask that question on the TevoCommunity Forums.

Wait actually I am doing it now. I was thinking the sandal company was Tevo. It's Teva.

But yeah it's too similar sounding and Tivo is well established. Never fly. When they go bankrupt though you can buy the rights to the name.


----------



## Lurker1

Tevo USA - Desktop 3D Printer Kits - Official US Distributor
Home
https://www.tevapharm.com/
http://tiva.org/
https://www.teva.com/
etc.


----------



## Dan203

oViT it is then!


----------



## Lurker1

I think Rovi is available now.


----------



## compnurd

The Vito Edge! Comes with a jar of marinara


----------



## ej42137

The other consideration with trademark protection is how deep your pockets are. Lots of companies will bring suit over non-infringing uses knowing that smaller entities will capitulate because they can't afford to defend themselves. See the above reference to Monster, for example.


----------



## Mikeguy

ej42137 said:


> The other consideration with trademark protection is how deep your pockets are. Lots of companies will bring suit over non-infringing uses knowing that smaller entities will capitulate because they can't afford to defend themselves. See the above reference to Monster, for example.


Likewise, and even more insidious (given the larger legal fees), patent infringement demands and claims.


----------



## Dan203

So the "Monster Vito Edge" it is!


----------



## OrangeTurtle

Late July is approaching, Tivo starting some sales on Current Equipment....

TiVo

Could mean we are just weeks away from the release of the Edge! Hoping there is a version like the Bolt that allows for Antenna or Cable- nice to have the option as we drop cable every summer.


----------



## Dan203

OrangeTurtle said:


> Late July is approaching, Tivo starting some sales on Current Equipment....
> 
> TiVo
> 
> Could mean we are just weeks away from the release of the Edge! Hoping there is a version like the Bolt that allows for Antenna or Cable- nice to have the option as we drop cable every summer.


A nicer option would be for these do be modular. Where you could have as many cable and OTA tuners as you wanted on your network and it would integrate them all into a single "system" you could manage as if it was one big DVR.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> A nicer option would be for these do be modular. Where you could have as many cable and OTA tuners as you wanted on your network and it would integrate them all into a single "system" you could manage as if it was one big DVR.


Yeah. They could sell two types of network tuner modules: 2-tuner OTA and 6-tuner CableCARD. Each would have a chip embedded and run enough software to manage a recordings database and communicate/coordinate with other devices on the network. You could add as many of these tuner modules to your network as you like via either ethernet or AC wifi (with a strong enough signal). You would connect a USB external hard drive (certain models/brands recommended by TiVo) to at least one of the tuner modules for storage. All tuner modules on the network could save recordings to a hard drive plugged into any of the modules.

Connected to each TV via HDMI (and to the home network via ethernet or AC wifi) would be any of the following:

a TiVo Mini or
a device running the new TiVo app (Apple TV, Roku, Fire TV or Android TV) or
a new TiVo-branded Android TV streaming box with peanut remote and Hydra UI integrated into the home screen (like on the RCN box of which Dave Zatz just posted a video)
The TiVo Mini and the TiVo Android TV box would be hardware-equipped to decode native MPEG-2 and de-interlace 1080i and 480i video. The modules would be able to transcode live and recorded TV to 720p MPEG-4 for streaming to all other devices on the home network.


----------



## tarheelblue32

OrangeTurtle said:


> Late July is approaching, Tivo starting some sales on Current Equipment....
> 
> TiVo
> 
> Could mean we are just weeks away from the release of the Edge! Hoping there is a version like the Bolt that allows for Antenna or Cable- nice to have the option as we drop cable every summer.


Another "sale of a lifetime" eh? What is this, the 3rd sale of a lifetime in the past 2 years or the 4th? I've lost count. TiVo must be using the lifetime of a fruit fly to measure how often this sale comes around.


----------



## Mikeguy

tarheelblue32 said:


> Another "sale of a lifetime" eh? What is this, the 3rd sale of a lifetime in the past 2 years or the 4th? I've lost count. TiVo must be using the lifetime of a fruit fly to measure how often this sale comes around.


Sshhhhh . . . .


----------



## Lurker1

Mikeguy said:


> Sshhhhh . . . .


It's like the permanent "Going Out Of Business" banners at the mall.


----------



## snerd

tarheelblue32 said:


> Another "sale of a lifetime" eh? What is this, the 3rd sale of a lifetime in the past 2 years or the 4th?


Another typo, should be "sale of All-In"


----------



## Joe3

tarheelblue32 said:


> Another "sale





snerd said:


> Another typo, should be "sale of All-In"


Nope, sorry.


----------



## Dan203

I think it was intended to be a play on the name Lifetime they use to use for service. But now that they've switched to calling it All-In the word play doesn't really work.


----------



## jaselzer

Coming to retail at Cedia in September. That is the word I received.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

krkaufman said:


> I can't imagine they'd drop MoCA from a model designed for cable use. (But then I didn't see the sense in their dropping it from the OTA-only model, either.)


Connecting a MoCA transmitter to an OTA antenna (as it is sort of intended that one would do) would be in conflict with various FCC rules (you are no longer the closed system (as cable systems are) that allows one to transmit on those frequencies allocated to others).


----------



## DigitalDawn

jaselzer said:


> Coming to retail at Cedia in September. That is the word I received.


Looks like you are correct. Unlike the past couple of years, TiVo is listed in a booth of its own. Looking forward to seeing the Edge at CEDIA.


----------



## fcfc2

gary.buhrmaster said:


> Connecting a MoCA transmitter to an OTA antenna (as it is sort of intended that one would do) would be in conflict with various FCC rules (you are no longer the closed system (as cable systems are) that allows one to transmit on those frequencies allocated to others).


I really have to laugh out loud at this one. krkaufman is in my estimation and many others here, the premiere expert on MoCA use with Tivos and has schooled so many here on the use of it on various setups it is beyond silly.
BTW Tivo dropping MoCA from the 4 tuner Roamio line was an aggravation to many folks as it seems few Tivoers watch on only one TV and not many home are outfitted with Ethernet runs to every room.


----------



## krkaufman

gary.buhrmaster said:


> Connecting a MoCA transmitter to an OTA antenna (as it is sort of intended that one would do) would be in conflict with various FCC rules (you are no longer the closed system (as cable systems are) that allows one to transmit on those frequencies allocated to others).


MoCA is designed to coexist with OTA antenna signals, but, yeah, the FCC wouldn't be too thrilled with everybody hooking up a "MoCA transmitter" right to their antennas, allowing the MoCA signals to hit and emanate from the antennas ... which is why a MoCA filter is required between the antenna and the coax plant on which the MoCA network is active, and why TiVo emphasizes the MoCA filter requirement in a number of places:

TiVo Accessories| MoCa PoE filter |TiVo Roamio and Mini
IMPORTANT: If you are using a MoCA network with your TiVo and you are sharing the coax with an antenna (on your roof or set-top), a 70dB POE filter is required.​POE (Point Of Entry) Filter-popup | TiVo
A POE filter is used in a MoCA (Multimedia over coax) network to: ... Prevent your MoCA netowrk (sic) from broadcasting out of your antenna.​_(And some others I've seen; but beware this page as it contains some bad information.)_​
TiVo emphasizes a 70dB loss for a MoCA filter used with OTA antennas, perhaps because of an FCC requirement, but I haven't bothered tracking down exactly why the difference (as opposed to the more common 40dB filters).

A "PoE" MoCA filter is effectively a requirement for cable installs, as well, but not having one won't anger the FCC, just your neighbors, yourself and/or your cable provider.

p.s. The mystery around the 70dB requirement is furthered by the fact that most antenna/satellite diplexers I've come across only have ~40dB attenuation in the stop-band.


----------



## Joe3

DigitalDawn said:


> Looks like you are correct. Unlike the past couple of years, TiVo is listed in a booth of its own. Looking forward to seeing the Edge at CEDIA.


Yea, TiVo, rush right in there with Edge TiVo. After all, rushing to market, what the hell could possibly go wrong~

* See rush to release Bolt.
* See weak Bolt specs
* See still fixing Bolt Bugs
* See key missing Bolt features:
-------Live Guide.
-------Transfers to TiVo
* See TiVo playing Bolt pretend
* See TiVo "Ha, Ha, Ha," what competition?


----------



## compnurd

Joe3 said:


> Yea, TiVo, rush right in there with Edge TiVo. After all, rushing to market, what the hell could possibly go wrong~
> 
> * See rush to release Bolt.
> * See weak Bolt specs
> * See still fixing Bolt Bugs
> * See key missing Bolt features:
> -------Live Guide.
> -------Transfers to TiVo
> * See TiVo playing Bolt pretend
> * See TiVo "Ha, Ha, Ha," what competition?


Umm Live Guide and Transfers have nothing to do with the Bolt They are Hydra related.. and weak Specs? Yeh come over to Directv land and see weak hardware specs and crappy software


----------



## Joe3

compnurd said:


> Umm Live Guide and Transfers have nothing to do with the Bolt They are Hydra related.. and weak Specs? Yeh come over to Directv land and see weak hardware specs and crappy software


You're right, but it's my understanding the Bolt comes with Hydra T4 and you have to figure out how to down grade out of it to T3.

Direct TV Satellite is on a death watch. TiVo has one last shot with bringing the Series 7, TiVo Edge out with strong innovative features or its competitors will put TiVo out of its misery. As a customer who doesn't want to see this company fail, I have a deep concern about them repeating their history of rushing new products out the door before they're ready. I rather see a fully working TiVo and wait. Rather than waiting at home for them to fix the problem because they rushed the roll out.

Just as Direct TV is now being put out of their misery, now, by their new competitors.


----------



## compnurd

Joe3 said:


> You're right, but it's my understanding the Bolt comes with Hydra T4 and you have to figure out how to down grade out of it to T3.
> 
> Direct TV Satellite is on a death watch. TiVo has one last shot with bringing the Series 7, TiVo Edge out with strong innovative features or its competitors will put TiVo out of its misery like Direct TV is now being put out of theirs.


Tivo is never going to put Directv anywhere. They arent really related anymore. Tivo is at the mercy of OTA and cable. and until any of those providers offers the amount of HD Channels/Quality, 4K programming and Sports overall they will continue to have nothing to do with each other. Directv still has well over 19 million customers and could care less if they continue to lose customers. They are making money. They would rather have premium customers then the people calling every month looking for a discount.

With regards to the other part, the Bolt Originally came with TE3. Only started with TE4 when Vox was introduced. The whole point of the product is Bolt VOX(aka VOICE) which requires TE4 So naturally it is going to come with TE4 pre installed


----------



## krkaufman

Joe3 said:


> TiVo has one last shot ...


Ok, ok, I think we've got the point.


----------



## ufo4sale

What they need is original programming exclusive to TiVo. Maybe a reality show, I heard those do good now a days.


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> MoCA is designed to coexist with OTA antenna signals, but, yeah, the FCC wouldn't be too thrilled with everybody hooking up a "MoCA transmitter" right to their antennas, allowing the MoCA signals to hit and emanate from the antennas


I don't think it works that way. I'm not an expert but back in the day I remember posting something similar about broadcasting channel 3 from an old TiVo that had coax output by hooking an antenna to it. And someone posted a very lengthy response explaining why that wasn't possible. Something about how broadcasting a signal requires antennas with very unique coil patterns with very specific lengths to get the right frequency. So I don't think your standard OTA antenna could actually broadcast a Moca signal. I also don't think Moca signals are that strong even if they were to leak out into the air somehow. The main reason we use POE filters is because it's possible for the signal to reach your neighbors over the common cable run and allow them to see your network or interfere with their own Moca network.


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> ... I remember posting something similar about broadcasting channel 3 from an old TiVo that had coax output by hooking an antenna to it. And someone posted a very lengthy response explaining why that wasn't possible. Something about how broadcasting a signal requires antennas with very unique coil patterns with very specific lengths to get the right frequency.


I've actually done this, although it was with a VCR rather than a TiVo (this was in the 1980's), and I added an amp before the antenna. I won't claim that it was the world's most powerful pirate TV station, but yes, I was able to pick up the signal from other locations in the house, over the air. So no, in fact, it doesn't _require_ a special antenna, though I don't doubt it could benefit from one.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

krkaufman said:


> MoCA is designed to coexist with OTA antenna signals, but, yeah, the FCC wouldn't be too thrilled with everybody hooking up a "MoCA transmitter" right to their antennas, allowing the MoCA signals to hit and emanate from the antennas ... which is why a MoCA filter is required between the antenna and the coax plant on which the MoCA network is active, and why TiVo emphasizes the MoCA filter requirement in a number of places:


And you really think consumers would have carefully followed that advice regarding filters? Some consumers can't even manage to connect the yellow cable to the yellow port even when there is only one cable (yellow), and only one port (also yellow). I suppose TiVo *could* have required professional installation which would install and certify the filters (by restricting sales only to certified installers for the OTA devices if they included MoCA?), but, well, that would have pretty much killed their OTA product sales. Everything is a compromise, and while the FCC may be slow to anger, once poked they can bring a whole world of hurt down on you.


----------



## krkaufman

gary.buhrmaster said:


> And you really think consumers would have carefully followed that advice regarding filters?


Plenty of evidence that they do given posts to this site. For those that don't, the black helicopters of the FCC are comin' fer ye!


----------



## OrangeCrush

krkaufman said:


> Plenty of evidence that they do given posts to this site. For those that don't, the black helicopters of the FCC are comin' fer ye!


Out of morbid curiosity, if I connected the biggest OTA antenna I could find directly to a MoCA adapter with no PoE filter at all, what would happen? Forget any useful purpose, but would it cause any detectable interference (or any signal at all) over any appreciable distance?


----------



## snerd

OrangeCrush said:


> Out of morbid curiosity, if I connected the biggest OTA antenna I could find directly to a MoCA adapter with no PoE filter at all, what would happen? Forget any useful purpose, but would it cause any detectable interference (or any signal at all) over any appreciable distance?


Unlikely. It is also unlikely that the FCC will ever know that you are broadcasting MoCA signals out to the neighborhood. This is mostly because the frequencies used for MoCA don't overlap with frequencies used for TV and/or Radio.

If you and a neighbor both forego the MoCA filter, you might be able create a shared MoCA network.

The biggest impact of skipping the MoCA filter is that it will significantly reduce signal strength on your coax, possibly to the point where some devices could have problems communicating with each other.


----------



## Dan203

OrangeCrush said:


> Out of morbid curiosity, if I connected the biggest OTA antenna I could find directly to a MoCA adapter with no PoE filter at all, what would happen? Forget any useful purpose, but would it cause any detectable interference (or any signal at all) over any appreciable distance?


As I said above... I'm not personally an expert but someone once posted a pretty detailed explanation as to why broadcasting using a normal OTA antenna is not possible. (wish I could find the link) OTA antennas are designed to receive not transmit. They have a generic design that is specific to capturing signals in the UHF and VHF frequency bands. IIRC from the post roadcasting a single, specific, frequency requires an antenna designed specifically for that signal. Not a generic antenna designed to pick up everything in a specific range. So while it may be possible to introduce some interference in to the RF spectrum it's likely to be very weak and unusable. Plus as someone else pointed out the frequencies used by MoCa don't really match up with any other wireless technologies, so it would be unlikely to actually interfere with anything in the real world.


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> As I said above... I'm not personally an expert but someone once posted a pretty detailed explanation as to why broadcasting using a normal OTA antenna is not possible.


And as I said above, this is not true.


----------



## mrsean

This Arris DVR looks a lot like a Tivo design. Could the Edge be a variant of it?

VIP6162W UHD IP DVR | ARRIS


----------



## snerd

Dan203 said:


> As I said above... I'm not personally an expert but someone once posted a pretty detailed explanation as to why broadcasting using a normal OTA antenna is not possible. (wish I could find the link) OTA antennas are designed to receive not transmit.


If the article is truly as you describe, then the person writing the article simply didn't know what they were talking about. An antenna is a "reciprocal" device, which means that an antenna which acts as a good receiver at a given frequency, can also act as a good transmitter at that same frequency. The antenna in a cell phone is a good example of this principle, it can transmit and receive signals. On the other hand, the design goals for a TV antenna for your home are different than the design goals for a broadcast antenna, which needs to handle high power, but can be designed for the particular broadcast frequency of a single station. Designing for a narrow bandwidth allows the antenna to be more efficient so that it can handle the higher power needed to broadcast out to a large area. So, the transmitting antenna isn't *required* to be a narrow band antenna which is tuned specifically to the frequency, but it is easier and more cost effective (in terms of operating costs) to transmit signals if the antenna can be designed for a specific narrow band.



> So while it may be possible to introduce some interference in to the RF spectrum it's likely to be very weak and unusable. Plus as someone else pointed out the frequencies used by MoCa don't really match up with any other wireless technologies, so it would be unlikely to actually interfere with anything in the real world.


Ever own walkie-talkies as a kid? They might have a range of only a couple of blocks, but the underlying principles are similar. A decent OTA antenna is a lot more efficient than a walkie-talkie antenna, so sending MoCA signals out of your OTA antenna could result in signals that could be received by a neighbor, provided that both antennae were aligned well enough.


----------



## Worf

Granted, MoCA frequencies are much higher than TV frequencies, so your OTA antenna will likely be a bad antenna at transmitting MoCA signals - as in instead of radiating all the power into the air, it will cause reflections which travel back down the line.

This means two things. First, it will degrade the MoCA signal - because that reflected signal will interfere with the desired MoCA signal. Second, I said the signal reflects because the antenna isn't as resonant at MoCA frequencies, but still, the antenna will radiate some of the signal into the air. This will take some of the MoCA signal away (remember, conservation of energy) and radiate it. 

Depending on a whole host of factors (antenna gain, radiated power, how much the reflected signal lowers the signal power, etc), you might be able to network with your neighbor. It's not an efficient way to do wireless networking, but it would work in theory.

Of course, another thing is if anyone is actually using the band MoCA uses (remember, MoCA is designed for use inside a cable, not over the air, so someone can be using the same frequencies) your antenna could receive (badly) those signals and kill your network.


----------



## tommage1

I am very interested in the release of the Edge, just to see what it can do. From what I have read so far it is a cable only device that uses a cable card and a 2.5" drive. So want to see what is new and better than the Bolt Vox cable only box. From what I read it will be displayed at some show in September? So maybe we will find out soon.................. I wonder if Tivo will come out with an ATSC 3.0 box. Not sure how much of their business is OTA, enough to keep them in business if cable cards go away completely? Anything totally dependent on a cable card is something that may not last more than a few more years IMO.


----------



## longrider

There is an Edge OTA in the works, ATSC 3 is unknown but I doubt it


----------



## tommage1

longrider said:


> There is an Edge OTA in the works, ATSC 3 is unknown but I doubt it


Wow, if not not sure why they would do it. ATSC 3 is already released in some areas and a LOT more in 2020. They do have to continue to broadcast ATSC 1 for 5 years. The channels will be moved to different sub channels (probably why my OTA channels keep changing). We shall see, a ATSC 1 Edge would be good for probably 5-6 years for sure but why not have ATSC 3 in the Edge since it is already being implemented, if someone still wants an ATSC 1 box they can get a Vox or Roamio.


----------



## krkaufman

longrider said:


> There is an Edge OTA in the works, ATSC 3 is unknown but I doubt it


TiVo is working on ATSC 3.0; do a search. You should find info on a demo of a TiVo box tuning ATSC 3.0 via an external, add-on tuner.


----------



## krkaufman

Not sure it’s been mentioned, but one thing that I expect from the Edge Series 7 is that, like the BOLT OTA, it will be TE4-only; no rollbacks to TE3.


----------



## Dan203

One thing to keep in mind for cable users is that according to the specs sent to the FCC these will only have 2 or 4 tuners. There is no 6 tuner Edge in the specs people got from the FCC. 

Now when the Bolt was released it took them almost a year to release a 6 tuner version, so maybe that'll happen again. Or maybe 4 tuners will be a limit of the platform and the Bolt will be the last TiVo you can buy with 6 tuners.


----------



## krkaufman

Dan203 said:


> One thing to keep in mind for cable users is that according to the specs sent to the FCC these will only have 2 or 4 tuners. There is no 6 tuner Edge in the specs people got from the FCC.
> 
> Now when the Bolt was released it took them almost a year to release a 6 tuner version, so maybe that'll happen again. Or maybe 4 tuners will be a limit of the platform and the Bolt will be the last TiVo you can buy with 6 tuners.


We also haven't seen a "cable or OTA" spec for an Edge, either, right?


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> We also haven't seen a "cable or OTA" spec for an Edge, either, right?


Yeah I'm not sure if they're listed specifically. I think people are assuming they're cable because they list MoCa


----------



## NashGuy

tommage1 said:


> Wow, if not not sure why they would do it. ATSC 3 is already released in some areas and a LOT more in 2020. They do have to continue to broadcast ATSC 1 for 5 years. The channels will be moved to different sub channels (probably why my OTA channels keep changing). We shall see, a ATSC 1 Edge would be good for probably 5-6 years for sure but why not have ATSC 3 in the Edge since it is already being implemented, if someone still wants an ATSC 1 box they can get a Vox or Roamio.


There are still some decisions to be made about how ATSC 3.0 tuners and their accompanying firmware/software will behave in the US market. The broadcast industry "powers that be" are still figuring that out right now. I think the earliest we'll see 3.0 external tuners available for purchase would be the latter half of 2020 and we probably won't see TVs for sale in the US market with built-in 3.0 tuners unveiled until CES in Jan. 2021.

Beyond that, there's a lot of uncertainty among industry observers as to whether or not ATSC 3.0 will really take off and succeed. The more that I've read and learned about it over the last few years, the more I've come to believe that 3.0 is not in the interests of the companies that own the biggest broadcast networks (Disney/ABC, Comcast/NBC, and CBS). It's mainly a system that serves the interests of Sinclair, the largest broadcast station owner group, who also owns a lot of the 3.0 patents.

I do believe that both 4K and HDR video will become mainstream TV formats in the 2020s but that will happen via streaming, not via free OTA TV and not even very much by traditional cable or satellite pay TV.


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> One thing to keep in mind for cable users is that according to the specs sent to the FCC these will only have 2 or 4 tuners. There is no 6 tuner Edge in the specs people got from the FCC.
> 
> Now when the Bolt was released it took them almost a year to release a 6 tuner version, so maybe that'll happen again. Or maybe 4 tuners will be a limit of the platform and the Bolt will be the last TiVo you can buy with 6 tuners.


The specs don't list the tuners either way


----------



## Dan203

compnurd said:


> The specs don't list the tuners either way


Hmmm.... I assumed they did. I could have sworn someone said the cable unit only had 4 tuners. And this post specifically says there is a 2 tuner and 4 tuner version of the OTA one. But not sure how he's determining that....



BigJimOutlaw said:


> OTA versions just hit the FCC.
> 
> Two models. *2-tuner 500 GB,* and 4 tuner 2 TB.
> 
> View attachment 41679


----------



## Dan203

krkaufman said:


> We also haven't seen a "cable or OTA" spec for an Edge, either, right?


Actually looking back at early posts the initial FCC file specifically says "for cable" in it. I think people may have been basing the specs off of the assumed Arris hardware these are based on.


----------



## cwoody222

2 and 4 tuners for OTA edge are confirmed.

I think cable 4 tuner is being assumed due to that.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Edit: cwoody beat me to it.

The "for Cable" box has no tuner specification. I've been assuming 6-tuner since it's "for cable" and not a combo unit, but there's no confirmation either way.

Two "for Antenna" models were differentiated by tuner/HDD size. 2-tuner 500GB, and 4-tuner 2TB.


----------



## compnurd

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Edit: cwoody beat me to it.
> 
> The "for Cable" box has no tuner specification. I've been assuming 6-tuner since it's "for cable" and not a combo unit, but there's no confirmation either way.
> 
> Two "for Antenna" models were differentiated by tuner/HDD size. 2-tuner 500GB, and 4-tuner 2TB.


Cable companies that used the MG1 and MG2 are 6 Tuner Models. No way they drop to 4


----------



## Joe3

cwoody222 said:


> View attachment 42564
> 2 and 4 tuners for OTA edge are confirmed.
> 
> I think cable 4 tuner is being assumed due to that.


What is the following referencing?

"The above model has been covered for preset and found that model MG3-OTA-H was the worst one and selected for final test And only its data was recorded in the report."


----------



## ashipkowski

Joe3 said:


> What is the following referencing?
> 
> "The above model has been covered for preset and found that model MG3-OTA-H was the worst one and selected for final test And only its data was recorded in the report."


That's "pretest" -- when doing compliance scans of radiated emissions one will often do a pre-test scan that isn't official to check for any glaring issues. In this case the MG3-OTA-H had worse radiated emissions than the MG3-OTA-L on the pre-test scan, so for the FCC scanning the "worse" device for radiated emissions / susceptibility to other devices' emissions was sufficient.


----------



## Joe3

ashipkowski said:


> That's "pretest" -- when doing compliance scans of radiated emissions one will often do a pre-test scan that isn't official to check for any glaring issues. In this case the MG3-OTA-H had worse radiated emissions than the MG3-OTA-L on the pre-test scan, so for the FCC scanning the "worse" device for radiated emissions / susceptibility to other devices' emissions was sufficient.


Thanks.


----------



## Dan203

compnurd said:


> Cable companies that used the MG1 and MG2 are 6 Tuner Models. No way they drop to 4


Good point. I thought maybe there might be a limitation in the Android TV part that limited them to 4 tuners, but we're not even 100% sure that it's even going to use Android TV so that's a bad leap on my part.


----------



## cwoody222

I'm not that familiar with Android TV. Does it require a Google App Store account? Can manufacturers control which apps are/aren't allowed to be installed?

I can just see this being a huge customer service headache for TiVo. People calling TiVo when their SlingTV feeds aren't working, when they can't find their Hulu Live recordings under My Shows and just how to reset passwords.

I'm not convinced TiVo will (or should) go to Android TV for their retail offerings.


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> I'm not that familiar with Android TV. Does it require a Google App Store account? Can manufacturers control which apps are/aren't allowed to be installed?
> 
> I can just see this being a huge customer service headache for TiVo. People calling TiVo when their SlingTV feeds aren't working, when they can't find their Hulu Live recordings under My Shows and just how to reset passwords.
> 
> I'm not convinced TiVo will (or should) go to Android TV for their retail offerings.


It's a catch 22. If they don't do something like this the apps they have are going to die off. A lot of the current apps are stuck at old versions because the provider has abandoned the HTML5 app platform they use. (based on Samsung smart TVs) If they don't switch to something like Android TV they're going to continue to lose apps until they're no longer competitive at all. They've already lost MLB and WWE because of this, and TiVo is listed as basically deprecated by Hulu. It's only going to get worse if they continue down the existing path. Android TV is the only off the shelf solution that fits their product. The only other solution would be to create a headless DVR, ala Tablo, that allows people to use 3rd party streaming devices as the main interface. But that loses them control and would make things like OnePass harder to accomplish. (maybe even impossible)


----------



## cwoody222

I agree with all you said, Dan.

Can TiVo control which apps they allow to run? I just don’t see something like Hulu Live being in their best interest of offering, regardless of market pressure.


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> I agree with all you said, Dan.
> 
> Can TiVo control which apps they allow to run? I just don't see something like Hulu Live being in their best interest of offering, regardless of market pressure.


I'm not sure. I know the version of Android TV they're using allows them some level of control, but I'm not sure if they can pick and choose individual apps. Plus some things like Hulu Live are built into the Hulu app itself, so it's not like they could just exclude that one. Maybe SlingTV or DirecTV now, but why would they really care? The customer has already bought their DVR at that point. If they didn't need the DVR part they could have just bought a Roku or FireTV for 1/10th the price.


----------



## mattyro7878

Mikeguy said:


> Not TIVO EDGE, but certainly EDGE if they had rights to it before TiVo (and then being able to stop TiVo from using TIVO EDGE), in the same or a related product/services field.


Like the Motorola Edge from long ago?. A cellular telephone in case you are under 50 yrs old.


----------



## Mikeguy

mattyro7878 said:


> Like the Motorola Edge from long ago?. A cellular telephone in case you are under 50 yrs old.


More than likely, they'd be allowed to co-exist as trademarks--probably not a great likelihood of confusion between a cellphone and a DVR.


----------



## cwoody222

Dan203 said:


> I'm not sure. I know the version of Android TV they're using allows them some level of control, but I'm not sure if they can pick and choose individual apps. Plus some things like Hulu Live are built into the Hulu app itself, so it's not like they could just exclude that one. Maybe SlingTV or DirecTV now, but why would they really care? The customer has already bought their DVR at that point. If they didn't need the DVR part they could have just bought a Roku or FireTV for 1/10th the price.


Good point about Hulu Live being built in to the main Hulu app.

But on why would they care... I think TiVo customers becoming cord cutters is a bad thing. No one is going to buy a TiVo (Android TV version) and pay a monthly subscription (or pay their outrageous lifetime fee) just to stream; not when Roku or FireTV are SO much cheaper.

Having apps like Dish and Sling make it that much easier for TiVo customers to experience cord cutting and, eventually, leave TiVo.

These aren't easy questions, though, and I'm glad I'm not in TiVo's shoes!

And to be clear, I've priced the cord cutting options and for me, cable (Fios) makes more sense. Especially given the commercial skipping, hassle-free recording, no buffering, quality, and ease of use. For me, TiVo is the best choice. But for lots of others, I fear it's not.


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> No one is going to buy a TiVo (Android TV version) and pay a monthly subscription (or pay their outrageous lifetime fee) just to stream; not when Roku or FireTV are SO much cheaper.


Maybe not the cable version, but the OTA version could be popular with cord cutters. Getting the local channels via OTT apps is hard, or impossible, depending on where you live. Recording them OTA is a simple option for those people.

TiVos cable future is in jeopardy anyway. Once cable companies switch to IP then CableCARD is dead and TiVo is out of the retail cable device market.


----------



## shwru980r

Dan203 said:


> Maybe not the cable version, but the OTA version could be popular with cord cutters. Getting the local channels via OTT apps is hard, or impossible, depending on where you live. Recording them OTA is a simple option for those people.
> 
> TiVos cable future is in jeopardy anyway. Once cable companies switch to IP then CableCARD is dead and TiVo is out of the retail cable device market.


I agree. Much easier to record local channels on a Tivo and watch later than to try and find the shows online for free.


----------



## OrangeTurtle

I third that emotion. Maybe I am a bit old school, but I love the ability to record and have it stored on my own device, then watch as I choose- plus the ability to rewind. 

Streaming still seems a bit glitchy to me and maybe someday I will like cloud DVR idea, but not just yet. 

As I previously mentioned I hope they make one like the base roamio or the base bolt that have allowed you to choose Antenna or Cable (so I have the option to switch back and forth, which is something I do from time to time).

Waiting for the Edge to go public- hoping it's any week now.


----------



## randian

If Comcast hadn’t degraded their video quality so much I wouldn’t consider services like YouTube TV. I still need to price out Internet-only service, since that’s been going up at a very steep rate so Comcast can capture profits from streaming customers and keep existing customers from switching. Eventually Comcast is going to price Internet service so high streaming will be more expensive than a cable tv package.


----------



## jaselzer

cwoody222 said:


> Good point about Hulu Live being built in to the main Hulu app.
> 
> But on why would they care... I think TiVo customers becoming cord cutters is a bad thing. No one is going to buy a TiVo (Android TV version) and pay a monthly subscription (or pay their outrageous lifetime fee) just to stream; not when Roku or FireTV are SO much cheaper.
> 
> Having apps like Dish and Sling make it that much easier for TiVo customers to experience cord cutting and, eventually, leave TiVo.
> 
> These aren't easy questions, though, and I'm glad I'm not in TiVo's shoes!
> 
> And to be clear, I've priced the cord cutting options and for me, cable (Fios) makes more sense. Especially given the commercial skipping, hassle-free recording, no buffering, quality, and ease of use. For me, TiVo is the best choice. But for lots of others, I fear it's not.


I am a FiOS TV customer AND I tried out the live streaming platforms. My Fios price was at or better than any of the live options given the premium channels I use. And, I found the interfaces and quality of the Live platforms to be subpar compared to my Fios TV. So for me, IF Edge is in fact an Android box with cable access, I am all over it and a definite customer!!


----------



## NashGuy

cwoody222 said:


> I agree with all you said, Dan.
> 
> Can TiVo control which apps they allow to run? I just don't see something like Hulu Live being in their best interest of offering, regardless of market pressure.





cwoody222 said:


> I'm not that familiar with Android TV. Does it require a Google App Store account? Can manufacturers control which apps are/aren't allowed to be installed?
> 
> I can just see this being a huge customer service headache for TiVo. People calling TiVo when their SlingTV feeds aren't working, when they can't find their Hulu Live recordings under My Shows and just how to reset passwords.
> 
> I'm not convinced TiVo will (or should) go to Android TV for their retail offerings.


I was, to the best of my knowledge, the first person on this forum prattling on and on about the need for TiVo to embrace either open-source Android or, even easier, Google's Android TV as the solution to their streaming app woes. Seriously, I was posting about that as TiVo's way forward 2 or 3 years ago.

Here's the deal with Android TV: to use it, the hardware provider must agree to abide by certain rules that Google sets. One of those rules is the inclusion of the Google Play app store being pre-installed, probably along with YouTube and maybe a couple other Google apps. Another rule is that the hardware provider doesn't get a say in which apps can be downloaded and installed from Google Play. Which is a *very* good thing for consumers, IMO. And no, if you're using a device running Android TV Operator Tier (a version of Android TV that has been customized by a pay TV operator or a company like TiVo), then no, you aren't forced to create or enter a Google account in order to use the box. But if you wanted to download and install other apps, then yes, I think you would need a free Google account (e.g. Gmail address).

I suppose TiVo would get some of those kinds of support calls you're imagining, stuff that should be directed to other companies like Sling and Hulu. But some automated pre-screening on their phone and web support should help weed some of that out, with phone numbers provided for the appropriate companies' customer service departments. Increasingly, I think, consumers understand that if you have a problem with Netflix, you contact Netflix, not Roku or Apple or Amazon. Should be no different if the brand name on the box is TiVo.


----------



## Dan203

They probably get those same calls now. They don’t really have control over the HTML5 apps either. So if one doesn’t work right there isn’t much they can do.


----------



## Joe3

Dan203 said:


> They probably get those same calls now. They don't really have control over the HTML5 apps either. So if one doesn't work right there isn't much they can do.


If history is any guide to the amount of problem calls that TiVo could get, but has no control over, you might go back to the early cable card years.

TiVo would be smart for now to build full functional TiVo apps on streaming devices, and put their efforts in improving itself.


----------



## d_anders

Joe3 said:


> TiVo would be smart for now to build full functional TiVo apps on streaming devices, and put their efforts in improving itself.


Well, they are working on TiVo apps to run on streaming devices. Notably Roku, Fire TV, and Apple TV and they are due out to start trickling out soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pj1983

d_anders said:


> Well, they are working on TiVo apps to run on streaming devices. Notably Roku, Fire TV, and Apple TV and they are due out to start trickling out soon.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm a little slow on some of this stuff, so please bear with me -- does this mean that my stockpile of Minis is about to take a nosedive in value? I already have a Mini, Roku, and FireTV dongle hooked up to some of my TV's for "testing". I'd love to ditch at least one of those devices per set; if it has to be a Mini, that's life, I guess.


----------



## cwoody222

pj1983 said:


> I'm a little slow on some of this stuff, so please bear with me -- does this mean that my stockpile of Minis is about to take a nosedive in value? I already have a Mini, Roku, and FireTV dongle hooked up to some of my TV's for "testing". I'd love to ditch at least one of those devices per set; if it has to be a Mini, that's life, I guess.


Well, the new apps won't be quite as good as mimicking the full TiVo experience as the Minis are.

Quality is rumored to be topped off at 720P. And it's streaming so FF, REW and commercial skipping isn't going to work as well, I'm sure.

We won't know any other trade offs until it launches.

I don't think it'll be any replacement for the Mini. But it's a free option, with some limitations, so that's good.


----------



## Dan203

pj1983 said:


> I'm a little slow on some of this stuff, so please bear with me -- does this mean that my stockpile of Minis is about to take a nosedive in value? I already have a Mini, Roku, and FireTV dongle hooked up to some of my TV's for "testing". I'd love to ditch at least one of those devices per set; if it has to be a Mini, that's life, I guess.


Maybe. Depends on how well the apps work. In the past they had an app for FireTV. Because the TiVo had to transcode on the fly for it to work it wasn't really an ideal replacement for the Mini. Some people may find it acceptable, but most people will probably still prefer the Mini.

That being said Minis don't have a ton of resale value anyway. I've bought several over the years and never paid more than 30-50% their original value.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

An updated Vox remote passed through FCC. No useful information, other than it's black. 

The original was the TGN-CRB97. This one is CRB97C.

Something electronic about it is different enough for it to be considered Original Equipment, but that could just be a result of a new supplier or whatever. It has a confidentiality hold on pictures, though, so they don't want us seeing the face yet.

I guess the take-away is that the Vox remote may be carried over, with some button adjustments or new buttons they don't want us to see. But nothing substantial.


----------



## Dan203

Maybe the pictures have a confidentiality hold because it's got a button with one of these on it?


----------



## mrsean

I can't believe this close to CEDIA that have so little info about what Tivo is planning to reveal.


----------



## celtic pride

It would be nice if the remote was backlit, my house is dark and i always have to turn on the lamp because i keep pushing the input button instead of the back button!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Maybe the pictures have a confidentiality hold because it's got a button with one of these on it?
> 
> View attachment 42947


Anything less is a big waste of time, imo.


----------



## NashGuy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Anything less is a big waste of time, imo.


Yes, hopefully the big reveal on the other side of the remote is a Google Assistant button -- highly suggesting that the device runs Android TV (although it wouldn't *have* to in order to offer GA -- see the DISH Hopper 3).

OTOH, maybe the big reveal is simply that the thumb buttons have disappeared. ;-)


----------



## tiller

This might be beating a dead horse, but all this doesn't matter if they don't come up with a viable platform for consistently adding streaming apps. For instance, bringing back Comcast On Demand, or support for Disney + and ESPN streaming apps. One of the great features of TiVo is having all the major streaming apps available so we don't have to change inputs on the TV. But no support for on demand and not word one about Disney streaming products is not good. Without knowledge of how they plan to grow their product line to keep up with new technology, I am reluctant to entertain the idea of purchasing a new $400 box.


----------



## Dan203

tiller said:


> This might be beating a dead horse, but all this doesn't matter if they don't come up with a viable platform for consistently adding streaming apps. For instance, bringing back Comcast On Demand, or support for Disney + and ESPN streaming apps. One of the great features of TiVo is having all the major streaming apps available so we don't have to change inputs on the TV. But no support for on demand and not word one about Disney streaming products is not good. Without knowledge of how they plan to grow their product line to keep up with new technology, I am reluctant to entertain the idea of purchasing a new $400 box.


That's the whole point of switching to Android TV. It allows access to Google Play so streaming services don't have to create a special app just for TiVo. Plus they have the clout of Google pressuring them to support the platform. (like they're currently doing with Hulu) A switch to Android TV will mean that new apps, like Disney+, DC Universe, HBONow, etc... will be supported out of the box. The demo video TiVo has on their site for the MSO Android TV box clearly shows Google Play in the apps list so I assume that means you can install any app that's Android TV compliant that's in the Google Play store.


----------



## foghorn2

You guys are way on topic, way are you all talking about the Edge ?


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> The demo video TiVo has on their site for the MSO Android TV box clearly shows Google Play in the apps list so I assume that means you can install any app that's Android TV compliant that's in the Google Play store.


Correct.


----------



## HenryPolk87




----------



## HenryPolk87

We already seen the front of new Tivo remote for running a Android Tv with TiVo in past.

I heard it’s going to have a user interface so it looks just like the Tivo Hyrda guide and all.


----------



## HenryPolk87

My TiVo Premiere 2 tuner is running slow but it still working.


----------



## HenryPolk87

foghorn2 said:


> You guys are way on topic, way are you all talking about the Edge ?


Yes it seems like we're talking about Edge remote.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The above remote isn't likely the Edge remote. It passed FCC earlier in the year as a basic remote for their Android streaming box, which partners may or may not use. Yes, the UI is Hydra.


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The above remote isn't likely the Edge remote. It passed FCC earlier in the year as a basic remote for their Android streaming box, which partners may or may not use. Yes, the UI is Hydra.


Like you said in your post, the new FCC submission could just be the result of a supplier change. That could very well be the design of the Edge remote just with a minor change to the innards.

Although I'm looking at a Vox remote right now and there are some buttons on it that might need to be on a retail device. Like the Skip button, the A-D buttons, and the back button. The Hydra UI is pretty dependant on those.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Like you said in your post, the new FCC submission could just be the result of a supplier change. That could very well be the design of the Edge remote just with a minor change to the innards.
> 
> Although I'm looking at a Vox remote right now and there are some buttons on it that might need to be on a retail device. Like the Skip button, the A-D buttons, and the back button. The Hydra UI is pretty dependant on those.


Yeah, Skip would be a must-have button for the Edge or any other retail TiVo. A-D buttons might be too (although I guess the Android TV TiVo for MSOs just makes the user nav around the screen and click soft buttons there for A-D?). Looks like the MSO remote has replaced "Back" with "Exit"?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

That's why I dismiss it. It's missing some important buttons a partner streaming device might not need, but we would. Maybe it's the Edge remote, but I doubt it.


----------



## Dan203

Would be pretty easy to just replace the blue microphone button on the Vox remote with that Google assistant dot pattern button though.


----------



## wmcbrine

HenryPolk87 said:


>


This is a cruel mockery of a real TiVo peanut.


----------



## tenthplanet

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's why I dismiss it. It's missing some important buttons a partner streaming device might not need, but we would. Maybe it's the Edge remote, but I doubt it.


The VOD button would never be on a retail unit, only on cable system supplied unit.


----------



## mschnebly

wmcbrine said:


> This is a cruel mockery of a real TiVo peanut.


I really like what they've done with that cute little wire out the side. That alone makes it a "Must have".


----------



## shwru980r

I think Tivo should release an Android TV Mini first to test the waters.


----------



## Dan203

shwru980r said:


> I think Tivo should release an Android TV Mini first to test the waters.


Because the Mini is an extension of the TiVo I kind of expect they'll release both simultaneously


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Because the Mini is an extension of the TiVo I kind of expect they'll release both simultaneously


This hypothetical new Mini running Android TV could actually be the exact same hardware that TiVo offers as the main STB for MSO partners running TiVo's Next-Gen IPTV platform, right? Except with a slightly different peanut remote (no VOD button, add in Skip button, etc.). We're essentially talking about a basic streamer with no hard drive or QAM tuners.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> This hypothetical new Mini running Android TV could actually be the exact same hardware that TiVo offers as the main STB for MSO partners running TiVo's Next-Gen IPTV platform, right? Except with a slightly different peanut remote (no VOD button, add in Skip button, etc.). We're essentially talking about a basic streamer with no hard drive or QAM tuners.


Exactly


----------



## tenthplanet

NashGuy said:


> This hypothetical new Mini running Android TV could actually be the exact same hardware that TiVo offers as the main STB for MSO partners running TiVo's Next-Gen IPTV platform, right? Except with a slightly different peanut remote (no VOD button, add in Skip button, etc.). We're essentially talking about a basic streamer with no hard drive or QAM tuners.


That makes sense.


----------



## tenthplanet

mschnebly said:


> I really like what they've done with that cute little wire out the side. That alone makes it a "Must have".


BYOBP Bring Your Own Battery Pack  After all the past problems the internal battery compartment has been "REMOVED"


----------



## NashGuy

Sorry to break it to you, Dan203 and others, but it looks like the TiVo Edge will NOT be running Android TV, meaning just the same groups of apps TiVo already has: Netflix, Prime Video, Hulu, YouTube, Vudu, Pandora and HBO Go.

Dave Zatz breaks the news, with a marketing photo of the new device here:

This Is The TiVo Edge


----------



## cwoody222

That post doesn’t say anything either way on Android.

I would ASSUME the lack of mention doesn’t bode well, but I still think there’s plenty of room to speculate.

(I am still in the camp that doesn’t think TiVo’s going full Android for retail, I just don’t think this new info definitively rules anything out)


----------



## jaselzer

I might be dense, but the lack of information on the underlying platform only means one should not assume anything. Your definitive statement to the contrary is not warranted nor currently evidenced.


----------



## NashGuy

cwoody222 said:


> That post doesn't say anything either way on Android.
> 
> I would ASSUME the lack of mention doesn't bode well, but I still think there's plenty of room to speculate.
> 
> (I am still in the camp that doesn't think TiVo's going full Android for retail, I just don't think this new info definitively rules anything out)


I just find it *really* hard to believe that, if the Edge had access to the Google Play Store for apps and built-in Google Assistant, that neither of those VERY important features would have been detailed in the marketing copy. Instead, we see a reference to the Amazon Alexa assistant and a list of the very same apps that TiVo has had for years. Strains credulity, IMO, to hold out hope for the Edge running Android TV. Sorry.

(And I tend to think that Google won't even allow licensors of Android TV to implement another voice assistant on their device besides Google Assistant.)


----------



## jaselzer

NashGuy said:


> I just find it *really* hard to believe that, if the Edge had access to the Google Play Store for apps and built-in Google Assistant, that neither of those VERY important features would have been detailed in the marketing copy. Instead, we see a reference to the Amazon Alexa assistant and a list of the very same apps that TiVo has had for years. Strains credulity, IMO, to hold out hope for the Edge running Android TV. Sorry.
> 
> (And I tend to think that Google won't even allow licensors of Android TV to implement another voice assistant on their device besides Google Assistant.)


I think you are probably correct. But it is only a probably and one can only speculate but not draw a definitive conclusion. And.........it would be certainly unfortunate, and in my opinion, point to a real issue at Tivo headquarters.


----------



## ajwees41

NashGuy said:


> Sorry to break it to you, Dan203 and others, but it looks like the TiVo Edge will NOT be running Android TV, meaning just the same groups of apps TiVo already has: Netflix, Prime Video, Hulu, YouTube, Vudu, Pandora and HBO Go.
> 
> Dave Zatz breaks the news, with a marketing photo of the new device here:
> 
> This Is The TiVo Edge


Android will be on cable Edge boxes, but not retail Edge devices


----------



## shwru980r

ajwees41 said:


> Android will be on cable Edge boxes, but not retail Edge devices


I'm surprised the cable industry would allow an Android TV cable box, since customers could side load gray market apps that would allow them to circumvent paying for premium cable services.


----------



## shwru980r

Dan203 said:


> Because the Mini is an extension of the TiVo I kind of expect they'll release both simultaneously


Is it safe to assume that an Android TV mini would only run Hydra and not be compatible with a Tivo Premiere?


----------



## compnurd

shwru980r said:


> Is it safe to assume that an Android TV mini would only run Hydra and not be compatible with a Tivo Premiere?


If I had to guess. It will be like hydra. The host must have android tv also


----------



## shwru980r

compnurd said:


> If I had to guess. It will be like hydra. The host must have android tv also


So you mean an Android TV mini would not even work with a Roamio or a Bolt?


----------



## compnurd

shwru980r said:


> So you mean an Android TV mini would not even work with a Roamio or a Bolt?


Who knows right now. Until we even have a confirmed new mini or even a android mini no one knows


----------



## Dan203

What’s the point of the Edge then? Why release another DVR that's just a minor hardware bump from the VOX with the same old app platform. What use is HDR if only one or two apps support it?

Seems like a waste at this point


----------



## Dan203

shwru980r said:


> Is it safe to assume that an Android TV mini would only run Hydra and not be compatible with a Tivo Premiere?


I think it's safe to assume that all new TiVos going forward will be Hydra only


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> What's the point of the Edge then? Why release another DVR that's just a minor hardware bump from the VOX with the same old app platform. What use is HDR if only one or two apps support it?
> 
> Seems like a waste at this point


Yes. Disappointing. I assume that there's some kind of manufacturing cost savings in adopting the new design in the Edge vs. continuing on making the Bolt. Either that or it's just about grabbing attention with a new name and look to juice sales for a bit.


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> What's the point of the Edge then? Why release another DVR that's just a minor hardware bump from the VOX with the same old app platform. What use is HDR if only one or two apps support it?
> 
> Seems like a waste at this point


Maybe Arris wanted to do a hardware refresh for cable


----------



## Joe3

From Zatz.

Trying to read the bottom. Maybe, some new information is in the bottom fine print. Something, something recorded content directly to mobile devices cannot make it out that well. Maybe, some here can.


----------



## Dan203

Nothing about this seems to be worth upgrading for. I might have considered upgrading my Bolt if this were really a Android TV device, but not just for some minor hardware bump.


----------



## HenryPolk87

Well from a Tivo Premiere to Tivo Edge will be a huge update for some.


----------



## HenryPolk87

Joe3 said:


> From Zat.
> 
> Trying to read the bottom. Maybe, some new information is in the bottom fine print. Something, something recorded content directly to mobile devices cannot make it out that well. Maybe, some here can.
> 
> View attachment 43039


 *compatible tablet *and *mobile* devices consist mainly of iPad, iPhone, iPod devices running IOS version 7 or later and Android devices running Android 4.1 (Jelly Bean 2012) or later version with a non Intel or AMD chipset sold separately. Not all recorded content can be streamed or downloaded to a laptop, or mobile device due to copyright protection assigned by the content provider and/or other technical limitations. Some recorded content can only be streamed/downloaded to your laptop, tablet or mobile device while you are on the same network as your TiVo EDGE.

Out of home streaming will support streaming to only *one *of your devices at a time and may/not be available for recorded content. Features and functions of TiVo EDGE are not guaranteed and are subject to change.


----------



## jaselzer

I am sort of bummed out that retail does not seem to be getting an Android based box.


----------



## dadrepus

jaselzer said:


> I am sort of bummed out that retail does not seem to be getting an Android based box.


Maybe that will come later down the road.


----------



## dadrepus

While we are not priority at the moment, they need to solidify their hold on certain cable markets, I do believe we are still appreciated. Down the line we will be either offered new boxes with Android or an Android upgrade to at least the Bolt box. I don't believe they are stupid and would abandon us. We are still a revenue stream they need.


----------



## Joe3

dadrepus said:


> Maybe that will come later down the road.


Really, so far, all I see is TiVo customers back lights, bumper to bumper, packed up with the competition, down that same long, long road, going away.


----------



## shwru980r

Maybe they could add more concurrent mobile device streams and add back the moca bridge they removed from the Bolt OTA to the Edge


----------



## mrsean

Dan203 said:


> Nothing about this seems to be worth upgrading for. I might have considered upgrading my Bolt if this were really an Android TV device, but not just for some minor hardware bump.


Are we sure now that Edge is not going to run Android?

A 2TB hard drive is disappointing in 2019. Hopefully, there is a 4TB/6TB option too.


----------



## NashGuy

dadrepus said:


> While we are not priority at the moment, they need to solidify their hold on certain cable markets, I do believe we are still appreciated. Down the line we will be either offered new boxes with Android or an Android upgrade to at least the Bolt box. I don't believe they are stupid and would abandon us. We are still a revenue stream they need.


I don't know how feasible it would be, either from a technological or a business perspective, for TiVo to issue an update overhauling the entire operating system platform on TiVo DVRs that are already in use. I dunno, I'm not saying it would be _impossible_ but I think it would be challenging to do, and challenging means expensive. Then there's the question of whether Google would allow it. They have certain rules around how their OS can be licensed and deployed. Of all the tech giants, I'd say Google is the least prickly to deal with and the most flexible when it comes to working with partners, so maybe they wouldn't care. But there might be issues around using Android TV with old TiVo remote controls that weren't originally designed with that OS in mind.

All in all, I guess it just strikes me as unlikely. And frankly, if TiVo was even currently thinking about rolling out a retail OTA or CableCARD DVR running on Android TV, why would they release the Edge now? Why not just skip it, continue selling the Bolt for now, and roll out the new devices based on Android TV in 2020?

Remember that the TiVo Roamio debuted in 2013, followed by the Bolt in 2015, then the Bolt Vox in 2017. So in that regard, I guess the Edge is arriving right on time, two years later in 2019. But if this pattern holds, we shouldn't expect a new model retail DVR for either CableCARD or OTA until 2021.

Due to CableLabs licensing/security issues around CableCARD, I think it would be much easier for TiVo to produce an OTA DVR running Android TV than it would a CableCARD DVR running it. And frankly, by 2021, I don't think TiVo or Arris will even bother trying to sell a next-gen model CableCARD DVR because Comcast will have already eliminated a number of basic cable channels from QAM, making them unavailable via CableCARD. Perhaps other cable operators will have done so too by fall 2021. (Keep in mind that Comcast represents over one-third of the total market of TV subscribers who can use CableCARDs, so when Comcast begins deprecating QAM-based TV, it's going to be the beginning of the end for TiVo's retail cable DVRs.)

As far as OTA TV, we'll see what that looks like by 2021. Will ATSC 3.0 look like the wave of the future or will it look more like a stillborn baby? It's not hard to imagine TiVo releasing an OTA DVR, either with just ATSC 1.0 tuners or hybrid 1.0/3.0 tuners, running on Android TV in 2021. But in the meantime, competing OTA DVR solutions from Tablo, Amazon and HDHomeRun continue to gain ground among cord-cutters...


----------



## NashGuy

mrsean said:


> Are we sure now that Edge is not going to run Android?


Everything about the language and logos used in the marketing signage for the Edge, pictured in Zatz's article that broke the story, points toward this device NOT running Google Android TV.

I guess the strongest voice we have confirming that would be Dave Zatz himself, who posted the following in the comments to his article in response to a commenter's Q as to whether the Edge runs it:

_Android TV TiVo only for IPTV "cable" partners at this point._​


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

mrsean said:


> A 2TB hard drive is disappointing in 2019.


In the 2.5" rotating magnetic media form factor for always on drives 2TB is the largest device in new production, limiting the design options. There will likely be individuals willing to use SSDs, or drives not specified for always on service, or drives no longer in production, but such alternatives are not going to be sold directly to cable companies (or consumers) who want some assurance of future support by the manufacturer.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

NashGuy said:


> I don't know how feasible it would be, either from a technological or a business perspective, for TiVo to issue an update overhauling the entire operating system platform on TiVo DVRs that are already in use.


It *could* be done, but it would have to be done for a compelling (i.e. ROI) reason, not just because it can be, and right now I have not heard of any compelling reason (for TiVo) to do so.


> Then there's the question of whether Google would allow it. They have certain rules around how their OS can be licensed and deployed.


Google has something called the "operator tier" for cable providers using Android TV. It allows great flexibility in how things are presented (not surprisingly, the cable providers want *their* stuff front and center, so if a cable company chooses the TiVo experience as being front and center, they can do so). For direct to consumer devices the rules are different and far more proscriptive (to achieve a more consistent/common experience). TiVo could use the open source AOSP to bypass those requirements, but that would mean losing access to certain Google features.


----------



## compnurd

NashGuy said:


> I don't know how feasible it would be, either from a technological or a business perspective, for TiVo to issue an update overhauling the entire operating system platform on TiVo DVRs that are already in use. I dunno, I'm not saying it would be _impossible_ but I think it would be challenging to do, and challenging means expensive. Then there's the question of whether Google would allow it. They have certain rules around how their OS can be licensed and deployed. Of all the tech giants, I'd say Google is the least prickly to deal with and the most flexible when it comes to working with partners, so maybe they wouldn't care. But there might be issues around using Android TV with old TiVo remote controls that weren't originally designed with that OS in mind.
> 
> All in all, I guess it just strikes me as unlikely. And frankly, if TiVo was even currently thinking about rolling out a retail OTA or CableCARD DVR running on Android TV, why would they release the Edge now? Why not just skip it, continue selling the Bolt for now, and roll out the new devices based on Android TV in 2020?
> 
> Remember that the TiVo Roamio debuted in 2013, followed by the Bolt in 2015, then the Bolt Vox in 2017. So in that regard, I guess the Edge is arriving right on time, two years later in 2019. But if this pattern holds, we shouldn't expect a new model retail DVR for either CableCARD or OTA until 2021.
> 
> Due to CableLabs licensing/security issues around CableCARD, I think it would be much easier for TiVo to produce an OTA DVR running Android TV than it would a CableCARD DVR running it. And frankly, by 2021, I don't think TiVo or Arris will even bother trying to sell a next-gen model CableCARD DVR because Comcast will have already eliminated a number of basic cable channels from QAM, making them unavailable via CableCARD. Perhaps other cable operators will have done so too by fall 2021. (Keep in mind that Comcast represents over one-third of the total market of TV subscribers who can use CableCARDs, so when Comcast begins deprecating QAM-based TV, it's going to be the beginning of the end for TiVo's retail cable DVRs.)
> 
> As far as OTA TV, we'll see what that looks like by 2021. Will ATSC 3.0 look like the wave of the future or will it look more like a stillborn baby? It's not hard to imagine TiVo releasing an OTA DVR, either with just ATSC 1.0 tuners or hybrid 1.0/3.0 tuners, running on Android TV in 2021. But in the meantime, competing OTA DVR solutions from Tablo, Amazon and HDHomeRun continue to gain ground among cord-cutters...


You do realize that many more cable companies then Comcast use Arris hardware for Tivo My cable company has no plans to go IPTV for another 10 years. They are going to need Arris cable card hardware until then


----------



## WVZR1

compnurd said:


> You do realize that many more cable companies then Comcast use Arris hardware for Tivo My cable company has no plans to go IPTV for another 10 years. They are going to need Arris cable card hardware until then


You'd be 'disappointed' I'd think if *NG* ceased the 'Speculation and WAG'. It's become maybe just an 'Entertainment Adventure'


----------



## NashGuy

gary.buhrmaster said:


> It *could* be done, but it would have to be done for a compelling (i.e. ROI) reason, not just because it can be, and right now I have not heard of any compelling reason (for TiVo) to do so.


Yep, agreed.



gary.buhrmaster said:


> Google has something called the "operator tier" for cable providers using Android TV. It allows great flexibility in how things are presented (not surprisingly, the cable providers want *their* stuff front and center, so if a cable company chooses the TiVo experience as being front and center, they can do so). For direct to consumer devices the rules are different and far more proscriptive (to achieve a more consistent/common experience). TiVo could use the open source AOSP to bypass those requirements, but that would mean losing access to certain Google features.


Yeah, TiVo is clearly using Android TV Operator Tier for the new IPTV devices that they offer to pay TV operators; that's how TiVo is able to use such a highly customized UI (i.e. Hydra) on the devices rather than the standard Google Android TV UI (which is what devices like the Mi Box S and the Nvidia Shield TV use).

It's not even clear, really, whether Google would allow TiVo to sell retail devices running Android TV with their custom Hydra UI. I tend to doubt it but, just because something hasn't been done so far doesn't mean that it's impossible in the future. I imagine that Google's main interests in expanding Android TV (to the extent that they *are* interested, and frankly, they don't seem to be all that much) are to expand usage of Google Assistant and YouTube (both of which MUST come pre-installed), and, to lesser extents, other apps via the Google Play Store. All of that can be achieved regardless of whether or not an Android TV device uses Google's standard UI or its own heavily customized UI.

As for TiVo using AOSP to create their own fork of Android built for TV screens, yeah, that's a possibility. It's what Amazon did with Fire TV. But the problem, as you allude to, is that such a device would NOT have access to the Google Play Store or probably any other Google apps like YouTube. Sure, TiVo could tell developers, "Hey, just list the exact same install package on the TiVo App Store that you've got on the Google Play and/or Amazon App Store! It'll work on our device too, promise!" And some smaller apps would do that but all the big guys who want to test it out, make sure it meets their standards, etc., so you couldn't necessarily count on an AOSP TiVo gaining access to all the apps you'd really want, like Disney+, HBO Max, CBS All Access, Showtime, etc.


----------



## mrsean

NashGuy said:


> Everything about the language and logos used in the marketing signage for the Edge, pictured in Zatz's article that broke the story, points toward this device NOT running Google Android TV.
> 
> I guess the strongest voice we have confirming that would be Dave Zatz himself, who posted the following in the comments to his article in response to a commenter's Q as to whether the Edge runs it:
> 
> _Android TV TiVo only for IPTV "cable" partners at this point._​


Thanks. I didn't know there was an article. It's nice that Zatz finally came through on the intel.

I don't know why Arris could not commission WD to produce 4TB drives primarily for Arris' use. I can't remember if any 6/8TB 2.5 " drives have ever been made. They would probably be cost-prohibited to engineer from scratch.


----------



## mschnebly

compnurd said:


> You do realize that many more cable companies then Comcast use Arris hardware for Tivo My cable company has no plans to go IPTV for another 10 years. They are going to need Arris cable card hardware until then


I don't think it matters. Comcast is the bulk of it. When a company like TiVo loses half or more of folks that can use their DRVs using cablecards it's going to hit the bottom line on that particular type of box.


----------



## compnurd

mschnebly said:


> I don't think it matters. Comcast is the bulk of it. When a company like TiVo loses half or more of folks that can use their DRVs using cablecards it's going to hit the bottom line on that particular type of box.


You assume there is a large population of TiVo users on Comcast. I would counter and say the majority are either using X1 or a basic box

TiVo's bread and butter right now is MSO operations. the larger regional companies that have gone all in on TiVo hardware You need to separate the retail from the MSO group. MSO's drive the software now and will drive the hardware moving forward. A retail cable card dvr is just a bonus right now since arris is making anyway

Comcast could drop cablecard support tomorrow and TiVo wouldn't blink


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

compnurd said:


> You assume there is a large population of TiVo users on Comcast. I would counter and say the majority are either using X1 or a basic box


The numbers reported to the FCC regarding CableCARD customers is pretty consistent across all the major MSOs (which are in the equivalent single digit percentages (and the majority of the consumer CableCARD customers have a TiVo from other reports)), so while you are correct that most Comcast customers are using the X1, for Charter or Cox (or ?) most customers are using their boxen too. Only on boards such as this does everyone (well, almost everyone, or at least their clients?) have a TiVo. So the impact on consumer TiVo CableCARD customer revenue (which, as mentioned next, is no longer the bread/butter) for any MSO dropping CableCARD support entirely would be in rough proportion the current market percentages of the various MSOs. It would possibly hurt TiVo retail consumer sales of hardware (and perhaps subscription sales) at least a little bit, as the side effect would possibly be a number of ex-Comcast TiVo's appearing on the new-to-you market (and while everyone will want the newest edgier box, substantial discounts can convince one to purchase a bit of the old), but it would not be any sort of knock-out blow to TiVo.


> TiVo's bread and butter right now is MSO operations. ... A retail cable card dvr is just a bonus right now since arris is making anyway


Absolutely. And there is no reason not to ride that ride (consumer sales) as long as it still has a positive revenue stream (and letting Arris do the R&D and manufacturing means the added costs to TiVo over the MSO variant was essentially the cost of a design of a TiVo plastic front panel, and a bit of TiVo branding in the UI; which are likely very very small compared to some previous designs which involved more engineering done in house).


----------



## Joe3

Sorry, saying MSO are TiVo's bread and butter is like saying the Stagecoachs are the bread and butter to wagon wheels just as the first cars start driving off the lot and begin to be taken happily home. Following a limping dying technology leads both the followed and the one doing the following quickly into the same early grave.


----------



## Dan203

mrsean said:


> Are we sure now that Edge is not going to run Android?
> 
> A 2TB hard drive is disappointing in 2019. Hopefully, there is a 4TB/6TB option too.


I don't think we "know" but if the report is true it seems like a worthless upgrade.


----------



## fyodor

Dan203 said:


> I don't think we "know" but if the report is true it seems like a worthless upgrade.


I mean, if it were going to run Android, it would be odd for the materials talking about the streaming benefits to not mention it.

I agree that there is no advantage to upgrading from the Bolt, but presumably there are sales to new customers and/or upgrades from older systems and it's not unusual for companies to refresh and upgrade their hardware for those purposes.


----------



## mschnebly

compnurd said:


> You assume there is a large population of TiVo users on Comcast. I would counter and say the majority are either using X1 or a basic box
> 
> TiVo's bread and butter right now is MSO operations. the larger regional companies that have gone all in on TiVo hardware You need to separate the retail from the MSO group. MSO's drive the software now and will drive the hardware moving forward. A retail cable card dvr is just a bonus right now since arris is making anyway
> 
> Comcast could drop cablecard support tomorrow and TiVo wouldn't blink


If Comcast dropped cable card TiVo's *retail* sales would very much blink - and cry big tears. TiVo's *retail* business would feel a lot of pain if half of their business went away.


----------



## compnurd

mschnebly said:


> If Comcast dropped cable card TiVo's *retail* sales would very much blink - and cry big tears. TiVo's *retail* business would feel a lot of pain if half of their business went away.


I highly highly doubt Comcast customers are half of there retail business.

At last count also there MSO customers outnumbered there retail by 10-1


----------



## mschnebly

compnurd said:


> I highly highly doubt Comcast customers are half of there retail business.
> 
> At last count also there MSO customers outnumbered there retail by 10-1


I really tried bolding my point but I guess I'm not getting it out. I'm talking RETAIL TiVo customers not MSO branded TiVo DVRs. I still think Comcast is very large portion of TiVo's RETAIL business.


----------



## compnurd

mschnebly said:


> I really tried bolding my point but I guess I'm not getting it out. I'm talking RETAIL TiVo customers not MSO branded TiVo DVRs. I still think Comcast is very large portion of TiVo's RETAIL business.


And I am telling you as I did above I do not


----------



## tarheelblue32

compnurd said:


> I highly highly doubt Comcast customers are half of there retail business.
> 
> 
> mschnebly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really tried bolding my point but I guess I'm not getting it out. I'm talking RETAIL TiVo customers not MSO branded TiVo DVRs. I still think Comcast is very large portion of TiVo's RETAIL business.
Click to expand...

There are somewhere around 50 million traditional cable TV subscribers and Comcast has around 21.5 million of those, so assuming that retail TiVo customers are fairly proportionally distributed across traditional cable operators, Comcast customers would account for roughly 43% of TiVo's retail cable DVR business. Now, there's also the retail OTA market, but I have no idea what percentage of TiVo customers use OTA DVRs vs the CableCARD DVRs. But if, for example, it was roughly 50/50 cable and OTA, then Comcast customers would account for approximately 21.5% of TiVo's retail business.


----------



## Mikeguy

Dan203 said:


> What's the point of the Edge then? Why release another DVR that's just a minor hardware bump from the VOX with the same old app platform. What use is HDR if only one or two apps support it?
> 
> Seems like a waste at this point


I finally looked at the Edge specs and am not sure that I really get it.

Perhaps TiVo feels that a new model, even if "new" in only minimal ways, spurs sales?

And so, when does the "upgrade to the Edge box from your Roamio/Bolt box, and transfer your Lifetime for $X" promo. begin?


----------



## mschnebly

compnurd said:


> And I am telling you as I did above I do not


OK, so you do not. I'm telling you I do. Looks like we disagree.


----------



## compnurd

Mikeguy said:


> I finally looked at the Edge specs and am not sure that I really get it.
> 
> Perhaps TiVo feels that a new model, even if "new" in only minimal ways, spurs sales?
> 
> And so, when does the "upgrade to the Edge box from your Roamio/Bolt box, and transfer your Lifetime for $X" promo. begin?


You say Tivo. I say they had little to do with this. MSO's outnumber retail by 10-1. With the world of 4K/HDR and all Dolby pushing more and more into boxes I wouldn't be surprised if the MSO's are pressuring Arris to make a newer box supporting all of this. Retail is just a by product since Arris makes it all now anyway

An MSO box supporting DV for Netflix or whatever gives them one more reason to keep that customer instead of switching to a ATV or whatever


----------



## SullyND

Mikeguy said:


> I finally looked at the Edge specs and am not sure that I really get it.
> 
> Perhaps TiVo feels that a new model, even if "new" in only minimal ways, spurs sales?


Isn't it possible that it's just a matter of production? Let's say they contracted to have X Bolt VOX made, and are running out. If they decided they were contracting with Arris then maybe it made sense to have an "all new" model that's "not really different". Isn't that essentially what happened with the Mini?


----------



## Joe3

SullyND said:


> Isn't it possible that it's just a matter of production? Let's say they contracted to have X Bolt VOX made, and are running out. If they decided they were contracting with Arris then maybe it made sense to have an "all new" model that's "not really different". Isn't that essentially what happened with the Mini?


No, it's not what happened to the Mini. If it was they would have kept the Bolt name like they did with the Mini.

If the information about the Edge is true, it more than likely that someone from a Spaghetti Western out of central casting is holding TiVo hostage and yelling, "Customers, we don't need no stinking customers!"


----------



## compnurd

SullyND said:


> Isn't it possible that it's just a matter of production? Let's say they contracted to have X Bolt VOX made, and are running out. If they decided they were contracting with Arris then maybe it made sense to have an "all new" model that's "not really different". Isn't that essentially what happened with the Mini?


It is also possible Broadcom is discontinuing the CPU they were using All sorts of reasons here


----------



## WVZR1

compnurd said:


> It is also possible Broadcom is discontinuing the CPU they were using All sorts of reasons here


There seems to be significant changes in both video and audio that should/could interest many. For many there's little interest, for some very likely substantial interest. For the 'APP & IPV GANG' not so much. $$$ will be a need to see. I don't have near the interest in AV as I once did but there's certainly many that do. It's an interesting piece!!


----------



## Dan203

When 90%+ of my viewing is now streaming and the worst part about TiVo is it's streaming support it kind of kills the product for me. I would have seriously considered an Edge if it were Android TV and supported more of the streaming apps, but as it stands they haven’t added a new streaming app of significance in years and some of the ones they did have have dropped off or stopped updating. (MLB, WWE, Hulu) Android TV would have made them a viable platform for my changing viewing habits, as it is I'm going to have to look at getting something else when Disney+ drops as I already signed up for 3 years of that service.


----------



## Joe3

mrsean said:


> A 2TB hard drive is disappointing in 2019. Hopefully, there is a 4TB/6TB option too.


This is too ridiculous to be true. Recording 4K content and cutting back on the hard drive capacity to store it?

If this an another ridiculous speculation are true, it would be time for the TiVo Board of Directors to step in and do their job or start looking at the Board of Directors for absenteeism, no quorum voting and lack of competence and business experience serving on the Board


----------



## cwoody222

Joe3 said:


> This is too ridiculous to be true. Recording 4K content and cutting back on the hard drive capacity to store it?
> 
> If this an another ridiculous speculation are true, it would be time for the TiVo Board of Directors to step in and do their job or start looking at the Board of Directors for absenteeism, no quorum voting and lack of business experience as a final governing body.


There is no recording of 4K content.

Well, except for the very very infrequent broadcasts on some cable outlets.

4K mostly refers to the streaming apps.


----------



## dlfl

Dan203 said:


> When 90%+ of my viewing is now streaming and the worst part about TiVo is it's streaming support it kind of kills the product for me. ..........


Same here and, even worse, the Edge apparently will still use CableCARD (and for me that means the POS tuning adapter with POS Spectrum support for same.)

I'm using my lifetime Roamio base model for as long as it lasts or until Spectrum raises their cable rates beyond total absurdity, or until keeping the TA going requires more than power-cycling once a month. I've already been using Fire TV for streaming and will never buy another device that requires CableCARD (and TA).


----------



## Joe3

cwoody222 said:


> There is no recording of 4K content.
> 
> Well, except for the very very infrequent broadcasts on some cable outlets.
> 
> 4K mostly refers to the streaming apps.


I don't know about where you are, but I am getting increasing amounts of 4k on Fios.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Joe3 said:


> This is too ridiculous to be true. Recording 4K content and cutting back on the hard drive capacity to store it?
> 
> If this an another ridiculous speculation are true, it would be time for the TiVo Board of Directors to step in and do their job or start looking at the Board of Directors for absenteeism, no quorum voting and lack of competence and business experience serving on the Board


TiVo should have just gone back to using the 3.5 inch hard drives if they were unable to get anything larger than 2TB in the 2.5 inch drives. When DVRs 2 generations ago had larger hard drives than your newest DVR, there is something very wrong.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

4K channels are starting to emerge on some cable systems, and surprisingly they aren't IP. I haven't done a lot of looking but some of Tivo's partners have a handful of channels. And watching 4K football the other day on Fios was nice.

But the fact that it took this long sort of underscores how marginally useful even the Bolt is as a product. 4 years later, only just now 4K channels are emerging and there's still only five 4K apps, and some have HDR and some don't.

They're marketing Dolby, so they must have at least one app lined up -- I'm guessing Netflix -- but big whoop. We're fixing to have the same problem with Dolby's features as only a handful of apps slow-drip their support in the next few years.

Edge is about to go into the "Why do I exist?" pile with the 2-tuner Premiere unless they replace their app platform with something credible for the VOD reality of 2020.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Dan203 said:


> What's the point of the Edge then? Why release another DVR that's just a minor hardware bump from the VOX with the same old app platform. What use is HDR if only one or two apps support it?


I'm guessing just a specs bump & cheaper/more available parts/easier manufacturing.



tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo should have just gone back to using the 3.5 inch hard drives if they were unable to get anything larger than 2TB in the 2.5 inch drives. When DVRs 2 generations ago had larger hard drives than your newest DVR, there is something very wrong.


It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Nobody cares about a box that lives in an entertainment center being an inch or two shallower/thinner/slimmer and 3.5" drives are cheaper, higher capacity and tend to last longer and fail less often. Maybe there's a glut of supply in 2.5" spinning disks now that laptop manufacturers have moved on to SSDs and they can get them on the cheap. I dunno. Seems short-sighted.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

OrangeCrush said:


> It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Nobody cares about a box that lives in an entertainment center being an inch or two shallower/thinner/slimmer


Not *everyone* puts their boxes in an entertainment center, so looks do matter to some. There is an entire field of industrial design to make things look good (and small) because, apparently, they sell better (at least according to Apple's design team).

I have little doubt that there will be those willing to 3D print some larger box with room for a larger drive for their own use (once the warrantee expires (or is voided), of course). I seem to recall such things being discussed on this forum in other areas.


> and 3.5" drives are cheaper, higher capacity and tend to last longer and fail less often.


They also have higher power requirement, which means heat, which means possibly needing a large(r) fan, and noise matters to some. And so does an Energy Star certification (lower power).

Lastly, remember the actual audience here is the MSOs which drove the design. This box (MG3-R) is simply an MSO design that TiVo is leveraging for a new retail device. *You*, as a consumer, never had any substantive input.


----------



## cwoody222

Joe3 said:


> I don't know about where you are, but I am getting increasing amounts of 4k on Fios.


I have Fios but don't have a Bolt.

How much is available now on a weekly basis? Is it all sports?


----------



## BobCamp1

cwoody222 said:


> I have Fios but don't have a Bolt.
> 
> How much is available now on a weekly basis? Is it all sports?


It is all sports, less than one game per week. Don't bother getting a Bolt just for that.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/34-h...k-live-sports-events-updated-8-27-2019-a.html


----------



## jaselzer

You know it is all a bit weird. I love the streaming boxes such as Roku and Nvidia Shield, etc. They work brilliantly, are small and have access to a ton of apps that not only make the boxes useful but also fun to have, such as adding an app here or there, etc. Then I have to tell the truth, the Tivo is probably the best cable box around. I think their user interface is pretty good. But to be honest, I have been using Tivos for a very very long time back when the cable company boxes where literally pieces of s...t. I am not sure how far along they have come in terms of UI and programming quality. Now the issue is that more and more I am using the streaming boxes to watch content. And, I use the Tivo to record live shows that I like and their Get Shows options are pretty useful. However, I NEVER(I mean NEVER) use my Tivo to watch Netflix, Vudu, Hulu, Amazon Prime, HBO GO(and those are the apps that I mostly watch, btw.). So, I was hoping that Tivo was going to surprise me with a box that would compel me to use my Tivo not only to watch cable but to seamlessly watch the streaming channel apps. If the Tivo Edge was an android box, I could have happily anticipated have the one box to handle all my desires when it comes to watching TV. And I see that such is not going to happen since I am on FIOS and as far as I know they are not planning on currently offering a Tivo Android based cable box. As a result of all this, I am inclined to see whether the FIOS cable box is good enough to compete with the Tivo box in terms of user friendliness since there is no issue of using the streaming apps on the Tivo. So, I also have to ask myself, WHY do I not use the apps on the Tivo rather than my Roku and Nvidia Shield. I do not really and completely understand it. The apps on the Tivo just seem like after thoughts rather than a real focus and priority and they just seem a bit less useful on the Tivo than a dedicated streaming box.


----------



## alexb

Dan203 said:


> I'm going to have to look at getting something else when Disney+ drops as I already signed up for 3 years of that service.


My naive hope is that rumoured apple TV app will allow my AppleTV to be the entry point to all my watching including TiVo's DRM recordings.


----------



## alexb

On the issue of why a new tivo box - its likely supply chain related. If their ODM contract for the bolt expired and the components in it were EOL or now more expensive than newer better items it makes sense to retool for the OEM cable companies and the retail device at the same time.


----------



## Joe3

alexb said:


> On the issue of why a new tivo box - its likely supply chain related. If their ODM contract for the bolt expired and the components in it were EOL or now more expensive than newer better items it makes sense to retool for the OEM cable companies and the retail device at the same time.


If it's just a supply chain, TiVo is deliberately cutting their nose off despite their face in the dumbest way possible. Why falsely advertise a new retail line product that is just like the old? And why arrogantly ignore that people will notice that little has changed, but the name?

If it were just an internal supply chain adjustment they would simply keep calling the product, the Bolt, rather than risking further damaging their reputation with falsely advertising a product as being new when there is nothing really new about it? It would be a deliberate wound to themselves.

I too am taking a long look at moving to Apple.


----------



## shwru980r

When the Premiere was first released, I remember complaints that the specs were not much better than the Series 3.


----------



## jaselzer

what false claims are you referring to?


----------



## cwoody222

What? A new consumer electronics product where the new version is only slightly better than the previous?!?!

It’s not like that doesn’t happen every single day.

If TiVo’s reputation is going to suffer here it’s not because of that.


----------



## cwoody222

BobCamp1 said:


> It is all sports, less than one game per week. Don't bother getting a Bolt just for that.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/34-h...k-live-sports-events-updated-8-27-2019-a.html


Thanks. That's what I assumed.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

alexb said:


> My naive hope is that rumoured apple TV app will allow my AppleTV to be the entry point to all my watching including TiVo's DRM recordings.


I have a couple of clients that are Apple centric households that have that same hope. It is conceivably that at the Apple Sept 10th event we will see something actually ship (the Android TV app was, as I recall from CES, targeted to ship Q2, and seems to have missed that boat, but the Apple app was targeted Q3 and September would be right on schedule). Nothing wrong with a little hope based on previous statements, although many have learned not to trust ship targets.


----------



## Joe3

shwru980r said:


> When the Premiere was first released, I remember complaints that the specs were not much better than the Series 3.


Way back then, they were without competition. The TiVo suits can't be so stupid to think they can pull that same thing with weak specs in today's competitive environment. They barely got away with it when they did years ago. Why would anyone keep making the same stupid mistakes and think, well, it will work this time and expect to say in business? If it's not the definition of insanity, it is a sign of a company going down for the last time. Again, until the Edge is officially released to the public, we can't for sure say we know what we're talking about. Until then, it's all speculations.


----------



## cwoody222

Weak specs?

6 tuners, 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, Automatic Commercial Skip, Alexa, Vox voice support, 300 hours of recording time, built in app streaming in and out of home.

Besides a bigger drive and more apps, what more do you want?

These specs are way more than most consumers would want and are much more than a standard STB would deliver.


----------



## tarheelblue32

cwoody222 said:


> Weak specs?
> 
> 6 tuners, 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, Automatic Commercial Skip, Alexa, Vox voice support, 300 hours of recording time, built in app streaming in and out of home.
> 
> Besides a bigger drive and more apps, what more do you want?
> 
> These specs are way more than most consumers would want and are much more than a standard STB would deliver.


If it can't run my entire home video network and make me a cappuccino, then it's clearly under-powered.


----------



## compnurd

tarheelblue32 said:


> If it can't run my entire home video network and make me a cappuccino, then it's clearly under-powered.


Agreed and I expect the little Tivo guy to be drawn in steamed milk every time


----------



## slowbiscuit

cwoody222 said:


> Besides a bigger drive and more apps, what more do you want?


An OS that can actually support more apps, like Android. Like pretty much everyone else has posted, it's a big WTF at this point. Tivo seems to want to be more irrelevant with every release.


----------



## tarheelblue32

slowbiscuit said:


> An OS that can actually support more apps, like Android. Like pretty much everyone else has posted, it's a big WTF at this point. Tivo seems to want to be more irrelevant with every release.


I personally don't care much about the streaming apps, but I do agree that if the Edge can't run Android TV apps, then it will be somewhat disappointing. That's the one thing that could really make retail TiVo devices relevant again and into the future. It may be impossible because of licensing reasons, but if it is at all possible to get Android apps up and running on TiVo devices, that is what TiVo should be primarily focused on doing right now.


----------



## Charles R

slowbiscuit said:


> An OS that can actually support more apps, like Android.


I'm all for a TiVo app running on (generic) Android TV. However TiVo having their own "dedicated" device has no appeal (to me). As history as shown it will never offer the number of apps and their features of a non dedicated device. Even "generic" devices like the Shield TV lacks support for endless Android apps and we really don't need another Channel Master Stream + that doesn't even support Netlfix.


----------



## wmcbrine

dlfl said:


> Same here and, even worse, the Edge apparently will still use CableCARD (and for me that means the POS tuning adapter with POS Spectrum support for same.)


You say that like there was an alternative. CableCard is the only "open" standard. And without an open standard, they'd (at best) have to make separate deals with each provider to allow TiVos on their systems (good luck with that).


----------



## dlfl

wmcbrine said:


> You say that like there was an alternative. CableCard is the only "open" standard. And without an open standard, they'd (at best) have to make separate deals with each provider to allow TiVos on their systems (good luck with that).


I take your point. What I'm saying is I can't get motivated to spend substantial bucks to upgrade to another device that will still have the PITA of the CableCARD/TA system as non-supported by Spectrum which has a monopoly on QAM cable TV delivery for the forseeable future where I live. The streaming alternatives will be preferable to that.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Charles R said:


> Even "generic" devices like the Shield TV lacks support for endless Android apps


Talk to the developers of those apps you want on Android TV. They must specify in the manifest they support the leanback interface (and not require a touchscreen), as TV's (well, at least my TV) do not provide a touch screen to interact with the app. While the core of Android TV is quite similar to Android for mobile devices (just like tvOS is quite similar to iOS in the Apple ecosystem), the devs do have to consider the differences before the apps will deploy to that platform. In some cases that is going to be easy, and in other cases, harder.


----------



## jaselzer

I do not fully understand the technology that you guys often discuss. I do know though as an enthusiastic consumer that I love my Tivos! But.........since so much of the new content is coming through on streaming platforms, paying "beaucoup" dollars for Tivo without a fully(to the extent possible) integrated platform such as Apple/Roku/Android, etc. just becomes more and more inappropriate. I have been a Tivo customer forever but now I more and more watch the streaming content and I find myself thinking "why pay for Tivo, just get a Fios box(I am a Fios cable subscriber.). There are some very nice functions available on the Tivo that keep me there: Skip, etc.


----------



## Charles R

gary.buhrmaster said:


> While the core of Android TV is quite similar to Android for mobile devices (just like tvOS is quite similar to iOS in the Apple ecosystem), the devs do have to consider the differences before the apps will deploy to that platform.


Obviously the app must support Android TV to run on Andtoid TV however a great deal of apps wiill run on some Android TV devices and not on other Android TV devices... bottom line just because the device runs Android TV doesn't mean it will support all Android TV apps. As such a TiVo device running Android TV might or might not support more apps than the current device.

So to my thinking TiVo needs to become a back-end server with an Android TV client. Not unlike the Recast... although it might introduce sacrifices many complain about like lower resolution. Personally, I'd rather stick to a dedicated box with its current feature set as I can never see TiVo supporting apps as well as "generic" Android TV devices and I'll happily use another for streaming. And I'd hate to see TiVo's features dumbed down to enable it run as an app.


----------



## lucidrenegade

Charles R said:


> So to my thinking TiVo needs to become a back-end server with an Android TV client. Not unlike the Recast... although it might introduce sacrifices many complain about like lower resolution. Personally, I'd rather stick to a dedicated box with its current feature set as I can never see TiVo supporting apps as well as "generic" Android TV devices and I'll happily use another for streaming. And I'd hate to see TiVo's featurs dumbed down to enable it run as an app.


I want a Tivo app that can do anything a Mini can do and will run on Android TV at the very minimum. No transcoding, downmixing, missing features. It can be done. I think they've just gotten lazy living off the patent revenue from past licensing agreements and failed to keep up with the times. Looks like the Edge is going to continue that trend.


----------



## smark

If it was built on Android TV, I'd consider replacing my Bolt to have the apps built in along side my TV recordings. But just the spec upgrade is not enough to do the replacement.


----------



## shwru980r

Joe3 said:


> Way back then, they were without competition. The TiVo suits can't be so stupid to think they can pull that same thing with weak specs in today's competitive environment. They barely got away with it when they did years ago. Why would anyone keep making the same stupid mistakes and think, well, it will work this time and expect to say in business? If it's not the definition of insanity, it is a sign of a company going down for the last time. Again, until the Edge is officially released to the public, we can't for sure say we know what we're talking about. Until then, it's all speculations.


But then they added the HD interface and more apps and even skip mode to the Premiere. The power supply is also more reliable than the Series 3.


----------



## shwru980r

smark said:


> If it was built on Android TV, I'd consider replacing my Bolt to have the apps built in along side my TV recordings. But just the spec upgrade is not enough to do the replacement.


The main improvement between the Bolt and the Roamio was faster app load times due to a faster CPU. Is it possible that the faster CPU in the edge could improve app load times even more?


----------



## smark

shwru980r said:


> The main improvement between the Bolt and the Roamio was faster app load times due to a faster CPU. Is it possible that the faster CPU in the edge could improve app load times even more?


It certainly could but I don't have too much of an issue with app loading today on the Bolt. What is an issue is the lack of apps available and staying on their platform will probably see more apps begin to die out.


----------



## HenryPolk87

shwru980r said:


> The main improvement between the Bolt and the Roamio was faster app load times due to a faster CPU. Is it possible that the faster CPU in the edge could improve app load times even more?


A user from TiVo Premiere to Edge will definitely notice a difference. From roamio to Edge is unknown because we don't know the CPU model that will be used. Just that it appears to be Broadcom line ... App life is important.


----------



## shwru980r

HenryPolk87 said:


> A user from TiVo Premiere to Edge will definitely notice a difference. From roamio to Edge is unknown because we don't know the CPU model that will be used. Just that it appears to be Broadcom line ...


I was thinking of an improvement in app load times between the Bolt and the Edge.


----------



## Headford

cwoody222 said:


> Weak specs?
> 
> 6 tuners, 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos, Automatic Commercial Skip, Alexa, Vox voice support, 300 hours of recording time, built in app streaming in and out of home.
> 
> Besides a bigger drive and more apps, what more do you want?
> 
> These specs are way more than most consumers would want and are much more than a standard STB would deliver.


IMO: Other than the hard drive size, I like what I see so far with respect to the new box. It's a TiVo box with some streaming apps which I'll never use (I have an Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV Cube, Roku and Chromecast for streaming services). For me the no-brainer reason to upgrade from a Roamio Pro 3TB to an Edge is when there is more 4K content (especially professional and college sports) broadcast by my cable provider. Right now my provider is charging an extra $9 month for bespoke 4K channels that I'll never watch and only sporadically broadcasts other 4K content.

This is also what happened when the transition from SD to HD took place. Channels and cable companies wanted more $ for HD content. If I remember right, this changed when Dish told the content providers that it would be broadcasting their HD content without paying a premium for it (in some cases without their express permission -- again if I remember right) and also didn't charge consumers extra for HD channels.

TiVo has met and exceeded the table stakes for a consumer 4K-ready DVR. The chicken-and-egg problem is when there finally will be enough content regularly available to make the investment in a new box with a new lifetime subscription worth the $1K+ investment.

When I make the jump, I hope there will be an Edge box available that has a larger than a 2TB drive (especially since recording 4K content takes more hard drive space even with the best compression algorithms in broadcast use today). I'm not looking forward to downgrading the number of hours of programming I can store before getting the yellow circle warning icons that programs are slated for automatic deletion in the next few days due to a lack of available space.


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## compnurd

shwru980r said:


> The main improvement between the Bolt and the Roamio was faster app load times due to a faster CPU. Is it possible that the faster CPU in the edge could improve app load times even more?


I am sure it will.. but they are pretty quick now....


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

This is getting a bit (well, a lot) off topic of the edge, but...


lucidrenegade said:


> I want a Tivo app that can do anything a Mini can do and will run on Android TV at the very minimum. No transcoding, downmixing, missing features. It can be done.


In some cases, for some things, sure, and in others, not so much. There are some platforms that do not advertise and support MPEG2 via mediacodec. And only some platforms support hardware based MCDI. And while there can be software workarounds in some cases (although software, especially for high quality deinterlacing, simply can't keep up on the low powered ATV SoC solutions) protected path required content, which must be decoded and rendered completely inside the trustzone to meet the requirements, substantially constrains what can be done on consumer ATV boxes (you can't post process back in user space). The Mini, on the other hand, has the advantage of being much more locked down than most ATV boxes are (or can be). There is a reason that the OTTs almost all transcode to MPEG4 progressive.


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## foghorn2

Peoples are just pissed off they cant use TiVo along with the HornPub android app


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## Dan203

HenryPolk87 said:


> A user from TiVo Premiere to Edge will definitely notice a difference. From roamio to Edge is unknown because we don't know the CPU model that will be used. Just that it appears to be Broadcom line ... App life is important.


People who went from a Premiere to a Roamio would notice a huge difference. The Premiere was a POS. But from the Roamio onward the apps loaded just fine. The difference between a Roamio and an Bolt when loading an app is a few seconds at best. The only exception is Netflix which the Bolt holds in memory so it loads instantly. And the app loading speed on the Bolt is just fine. If all you get with an Edge is apps that load a few seconds faster then the only people who'll be upgrading are Premiere users and Roamio/Bolt users who's TiVos physically broke. If they had actually used Android TV I think a LOT of us would have upgraded from all models just to get the new app platform. I know I would have.


----------



## NashGuy

mschnebly said:


> I really tried bolding my point but I guess I'm not getting it out. I'm talking RETAIL TiVo customers not MSO branded TiVo DVRs. I still think Comcast is very large portion of TiVo's RETAIL business.


It is. I don't know what % of *actual* retail TiVo CableCARD users are on Comcast but we can quickly figure out about what % of all CableCARD-compatible TV subscribers in the US get service from Comcast.

This table gives us current subscriber counts for the largest MVPDs. First, we'll tally up the number among those MVPDs that are CableCARD-compatible. (Missing entries, such as #2, belong to MVPDs that do not support CableCARD, such as DirecTV.)

1. Comcast Xfinity 21,641,000
3. Charter Spectrum 16,320,000
5. Verizon Fios TV 4,346,000
6. Cox Cable TV 3,940,000
8. Altice USA Optimum/Suddenlink 3,276,500
14. Mediacom 747,000
15. Frontier FiOS 738,000
16. Cable One Sparklight 308,493
17. Cogeco Atlantic Broadband 307,261

Let's also add another, say, 2 million to account for all those small MVPDs out there.

That comes to a total of about 53.6 million cable subs on a service with which they could possibly use a CableCARD-equipped TiVo.

*Comcast alone accounts for just over 40% of them. *Charter accounts for another 30%. If either of those systems ever drop QAM cable TV channels and switch to IPTV, it will have a major impact on the continued viability of TiVo as a retail cable DVR platform.


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

Dan203 said:


> The difference between a Roamio and an Bolt when loading an app is a few seconds at best.


Hey, I need my instant gratification, and I need it *NOW*.

I would never claim that a few seconds matters to all (it does not matter to me for things I do very infrequently), but for some, that first interaction with a new device can make the difference between a sale, and a pass.


----------



## Joe3

Headford said:


> IMO: Other than the hard drive size, I like what I see so far with respect to the new box.


What is the new chip they are using in the Edge?


----------



## Dan203

gary.buhrmaster said:


> Hey, I need my instant gratification, and I need it *NOW*.
> 
> I would never claim that a few seconds matters to all (it does not matter to me for things I do very infrequently), but for some, that first interaction with a new device can make the difference between a sale, and a pass.


As we've seen in the PC market over the last few years, there comes a point when most people feel like what they have is fast enough. And with no additional functionality pushing the hardware this is essentially speed or speeds sake and very few people will care.


----------



## ric hardt

The world is transitioning to streaming and Tivo is doubling down on a new model which does little to give the end user a wider option for viewing content? I'm sure the hardware is great and it will be the premiere DVR but not sure if that's compelling enough to attract new customers or for most existing customers to upgrade. One box to rule them all this does not appear to be.


----------



## Joe3

Here is an example of what a tech company that wants to stay in business does.

Apple may release a new Apple TV with an A12 chip

Apple leads with their hardware. Higher specs and it *introduces a cool new innovative feature *that helps use the higher specs with a little left over (Apple likes their software people.)This kind of introduction creates interest, good buzz, and this leads to a healthy place for satisfied consumers and company.

Now, TiVo on the other hand, so far, doesn't get this 101 MBA stuff. Rather, TiVo introduces a new feature after the hardware facts and hopes whatever cheap hardware specs are in the box can handle it. Half-ass backwards. So far. And Frankly, they're are out of time on the field.


----------



## alexb

Joe3 said:


> If it's just a supply chain, TiVo is deliberately cutting their nose off despite their face in the dumbest way possible. Why falsely advertise a new retail line product that is just like the old? And why arrogantly ignore that people will notice that little has changed, but the name?
> 
> If it were just an internal supply chain adjustment they would simply keep calling the product, the Bolt, rather than risking further damaging their reputation with falsely advertising a product as being new when there is nothing really new about it? It would be a deliberate wound to themselves.
> 
> I too am taking a long look at moving to Apple.


There is so much to unpack here, but at a high-level you are making a huge number of faulty assumptions about how businesses are motivated and drive sales (or rather the individuals within a business).

1. this may not be a choice if they are forced into new hardware for a large number of reasons
2. using this as a redesign opportunity can help them learn and reduce COGS and support costs by refining design
3. naming - no one can predict marketing depts - they are many good reasons to change the name and none of have anything to do with us folks on the forum - but rather net-new customers / AR/PR cycles - or just because someone new needs to make an impact in the company for the their career goals
4. there is no false advertising - stop with the emotional hyperbole, they say its called foo and it has bar - whether the name changes is irrelevant. This does have some net new features, one can argue whether they are material or not, but that has nothing do with names and the motivation for changing names. 
5. no it is no wound to them at all and even if i conceded it was then it isn't in any way material (that has a legal/financial meaning) whatsoever.

Bottom line if there is a change in the model (even id it is feature identical) it utterly makes sense to change the name if it buys a new media cycle / makes your key cablecos who do care happy. It also gives them an opportunity to reset the coversation with (r)etailers. Though i don't personally believe that will help them much - best buy don't give a poo.

I don't plan to move to apple other than use it instead of mini's. I doubt minis are very profitable or even have positive COGS for TivO. I expect they would love to see the back of them. But thats just poorly educated guess.


----------



## Dan203

ric hardt said:


> I'm sure the hardware is great and it will be the premiere DVR but not sure if that's compelling enough to attract new customers or for most existing customers to upgrade.


I don't think it is. TiVo basically has two choices if they want to continue to be relevant in the consumer space.....

1) Create a box that runs a popular app OS, like Android TV, so that apps can run on the box without special attention from the developers
2) Create a headless DVR like Tablo where the TiVo UI is an app that will run on any of the popular streaming devices

Creating a special box that runs special apps that no developers want to target is a losing proposition. I had high hopes that the Edge would be #1 above, but it appears that is not the case. If TiVo plans to wait another 2-3 years to release the next update I fear it'll be too late and their window will have passed. (it may have already passed even if the Edge was as we hoped)


----------



## foghorn2

Joe3 said:


> Here is an example of what a tech company that wants to stay in business does.
> 
> Apple may release a new Apple TV with an A12 chip
> 
> Apple leads with their hardware. Higher specs and it *introduces a cool new innovative feature *that helps use the higher specs with a little left over (Apple likes their software people.)This kind of introduction creates interest, good buzz, and this leads to a healthy place for satisfied consumers and company.
> 
> Now, TiVo on the other hand, so far, doesn't get this 101 MBA stuff. Rather, TiVo introduces a new feature after the hardware facts and hopes whatever cheap hardware specs are in the box can handle it. Half-ass backwards. So far. And Frankly, they're are out of time on the field.


By the time TiVo releases something new, its already too slow and obsolete. Yes the Bolt is faster than the Roamio, but a $25 FireStick blows them both away in speed.

But no big deal for me, I dont stream much, and if I do, the cheap firesticks are just fine. 
But theres a no real need to upgrade to a Edge or the Bono.


----------



## jaselzer

smark said:


> If it was built on Android TV, I'd consider replacing my Bolt to have the apps built in along side my TV recordings. But just the spec upgrade is not enough to do the replacement.


My sentiments exactly!


----------



## Joe3

alexb said:


> 4. there is no false advertising - stop with the emotional hyperbole, they say its called foo and it has bar - whether the name changes is irrelevant. This does have some net new features, one can argue whether they are material or not, but that has nothing do with names and the motivation for changing names.
> 5. no it is no wound to them at all and even if i conceded it was then it isn't in any way material (that has a legal/financial meaning) whatsoever.


Yes, you are correct it isn't material legally. However, there is very low bar when it comes to what an advertising statements can say and there is the First Amendment. However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't stink if they released a new Edge and didn't have anything substantially new from the Bolt. It may not meet the legal definition, but we come to expect more of progress than problems from a tech companies. Can this company honestly say it has met at least that standard, if it continues to advertise a product as new, if it's basically not new. I am hoping there is something new coming from the Edge and we just haven't heard it yet.

Under Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, a claim can be made against a defendant for false or misleading advertising. For a claim against a defendant for false advertising, five things must be met.

(1) defendant made false or misleading statements as to his own products (or another's);
(2) actual deception, or at least a tendency to deceive a substantial portion of the intended audience;
(3) deception is material in that it is likely to influence purchasing decisions;
(4) the advertised goods travel in interstate commerce; and
(5) a likelihood of injury to plaintiff. However, the plaintiff does not have to prove actual injury.


----------



## Headford

Joe3 said:


> Yes, you are correct it isn't material legally. However, there is very low bar when it comes to what an advertising statements can say and there is the First Amendment. However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't stink if they released a new Edge and didn't have anything substantially new from the Bolt. It may not meet the legal definition, but we come to expect more of progress than problems from a tech companies. Can this company honestly say it has met at least that standard, if it continues to advertise a product as new, if it's basically not new. I am hoping there is something new coming from the Edge and we just haven't heard it yet.
> 
> Under Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, a claim can be made against a defendant for false or misleading advertising. For a claim against a defendant for false advertising, five things must be met.
> 
> (1) defendant made false or misleading statements as to his own products (or another's);
> (2) actual deception, or at least a tendency to deceive a substantial portion of the intended audience;
> (3) deception is material in that it is likely to influence purchasing decisions;
> (4) the advertised goods travel in interstate commerce; and
> (5) a likelihood of injury to plaintiff. However, the plaintiff does not have to prove actual injury.


3 things:
- to date, the Edge has not been advertised
- from what appears to be the image of the outside of the box, I don't see a single statement that is false or misleading. I see new product features (e.g., Dolby Vision and Atmos) -- more than enough to pass muster should a "new and improved" assertion happen to be advertised in the future.
- under the statute you cite, consumers do not have standing to bring any claims, only competitors have standing. See Lexmark v. Static Control Components. Claims typically arise when a false or misleading statement about a competitor's product is made in a product comparison. Not found here.


----------



## HerronScott

foghorn2 said:


> By the time TiVo releases something new, its already too slow and obsolete. Yes the Bolt is faster than the Roamio, but a $25 FireStick blows them both away in speed.


And you can't compare a FireStick to a DVR? How many tuners is the FireStick buffering in realtime (which has priority over other activities)?

Scott


----------



## Joe3

Headford said:


> 3 things:
> - to date, the Edge has not been advertised
> - from what appears to be the image of the outside of the box, I don't see a single statement that is false or misleading. I see new product features (e.g., Dolby Vision and Atmos) -- more than enough to pass muster should a "new and improved" assertion happen to be advertised in the future.
> - under the statute you cite, consumers do not have standing to bring any claims, only competitors have standing. See Lexmark v. Static Control Components. Claims typically arise when a false or misleading statement about a competitor's product is made in a product comparison. Not found here.


Yes, very impressive that Google.

I never said consumer had standing or a chance in Court with a false advertisement claim. I mentioned the Lanham Act to see how people would respond, not to see if they can pass the law review. The criteria, no standing aside, is still a good ethical one that addresses the letter of law if not the law itself. There is the law and there is the letter of the law. The fact TiVo, if they so choose, can get away with just the insignificant amount of tweaking their product (e.g., Dolby Vision and Atmos not theirs) and advertise it as their brand new product is not debatable. However, TiVo is not a toothpaste. And the question is not can they, but should they? And should they, should they survive?

The jury will be out until the new product arrives, but the answer must be no.


----------



## cwoody222

The more I think about this, while there are a few more apps I’d like, what I REALLY want is OnePass to actually work with streaming services like it should.

I don’t mind at all switching inputs to watch Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO Go but what would keep me on the TiVo input is being able to select THIS WEEKS new episode/series from my Now Playing and watch it directly.

OnePass that worked like that never came to pass.


----------



## cwoody222

Dan203 said:


> People who went from a Premiere to a Roamio would notice a huge difference. The Premiere was a POS. But from the Roamio onward the apps loaded just fine. The difference between a Roamio and an Bolt when loading an app is a few seconds at best. The only exception is Netflix which the Bolt holds in memory so it loads instantly. And the app loading speed on the Bolt is just fine. If all you get with an Edge is apps that load a few seconds faster then the only people who'll be upgrading are Premiere users and Roamio/Bolt users who's TiVos physically broke. If they had actually used Android TV I think a LOT of us would have upgraded from all models just to get the new app platform. I know I would have.


I had an original 14 hour TiVo.
I upgraded to a DT unit because, "record two things at once!"
I upgraded to a OLED Series 3 to record HD (first off OTA, then cable) and because it was friggin sweet!
I upgraded to Premiere for the new UI and to ditch a cable card and increase tuners
I got a Stream to download shows to my phone
I upgraded to a Roamio because yes, the Premiere was a POS, and wanted an integrated Stream plus, MORE, tuners

I skipped the Bolt because I have other 4K streamers and didn't really need snappier app loads.

I'll likely skip the Edge for the same reasons.

That doesn't say the Bolt and Edge aren't good or new or attractive to some. Just my personal upgrade path isn't likely to be affected.


----------



## HerronScott

cwoody222 said:


> I had an original 14 hour TiVo.
> I upgraded to a DT unit because, "record two things at once!"
> I upgraded to a OLED Series 3 to record HD (first off OTA, then cable) and because it was friggin sweet!
> I upgraded to Premiere for the new UI and to ditch a cable card and increase tuners
> I got a Stream to download shows to my phone
> I upgraded to a Roamio because yes, the Premiere was a POS, and wanted an integrated Stream plus, MORE, tuners


We've gone 7-8 years between TiVo upgrades which means that we've skipped the even series. We still have another 4 years to hit that on the Roamio Pro and we're still very happy with it so we might end up skipping 2 series this time (Bolt and Edge).

2 x Series 1 TiVo in 2000 (Sony and Philips)
2 x S3 OLED in 2007 (to record HD and for $199 lifetime transfer)
1 x Roamio Pro in 2015 (to record MPEG4 and $99 lifetime offer)

Scott


----------



## BobCamp1

HerronScott said:


> And you can't compare a FireStick to a DVR? How many tuners is the FireStick buffering in realtime (which has priority over other activities)?
> 
> Scott


A Fire Stick doesn't have to buffer any tuners -- you just buffer what you're currently watching. There are drawbacks to having an all-in-one device. Jack of all trades, master of none.

And it's often only $15 for a Fire Stick. I use that instead of my Bolt because the apps actually work on it and there are many, many, many, many, many more apps to choose from. And unlike a Mini wireless networking is supported, because it's 2019.


----------



## Mikeguy

BobCamp1 said:


> And unlike a Mini wireless networking is supported, because it's 2019.


Yeah, but, the TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter is right around the corner . . . .


----------



## WVZR1

Mikeguy said:


> Yeah, but, the TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter is right around the corner . . . .


My L3TV/T-Vision 'LITE' box would run freestanding WiFi (from the MAIN), MoCA or 'wired'. That's what I'd expect the Mini to do when released. I used the 'LITE' wired and also WiFi. It performed well! They mentioned 30ft for effective WiFi. My use was much closer than that.


----------



## slowbiscuit

cwoody222 said:


> The more I think about this, while there are a few more apps I'd like, what I REALLY want is OnePass to actually work with streaming services like it should.
> 
> I don't mind at all switching inputs to watch Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO Go but what would keep me on the TiVo input is being able to select THIS WEEKS new episode/series from my Now Playing and watch it directly.
> 
> OnePass that worked like that never came to pass.


Another WTF fail for Tivo, unfortunately that ship sailed when Rovi took over. They could care less about accurate guide data and universal search.


----------



## NashGuy

cwoody222 said:


> The more I think about this, while there are a few more apps I'd like, what I REALLY want is OnePass to actually work with streaming services like it should.
> 
> I don't mind at all switching inputs to watch Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO Go but what would keep me on the TiVo input is being able to select THIS WEEKS new episode/series from my Now Playing and watch it directly.
> 
> OnePass that worked like that never came to pass.


I haven't used a TiVo since I sold my old Roamio OTA a couple years back but what you're pointing out was one of my biggest frustrations back then: spotty support for new streaming content in the OnePass system. From what I gather on this forum, it's only gotten worse since then (perhaps because of the switch to Rovi guide data).

Honestly, if TiVo could have nailed the execution on OnePass with streaming sources, it would be a much more competent "all-in-one" box for cable TV users. But that problem, combined with apps that are relatively slow or outdated, plus the lack of a few key ones that cable subs might want, like Showtime Anytime, Starz, maybe CBS All Access and the upcoming Disney+, just makes it easier to rely on the TiVo as a pure DVR and turn to something else for streaming.

And if that's what TiVo users are going to do, I think it makes a lot of sense for TiVo to put out a headless network DVR that relies on popular streaming devices as the front-end. That's what the TiVo Mavrik was going to be. I wonder why it got axed? (I'm sure I and others engaged in endless speculation at the time as to why but I can't remember what the consensus opinion was now.)

The kind of TiVo I'm envisioning would abandon all pretenses of support for streaming integration. Revert from OnePass back to Season Pass. Have a chipset that could handle high-quality transcoding, but only when necessary, for delivering high-quality live and recorded cable and OTA TV to a TiVo app for Apple TV, Fire TV, Android TV and Roku that would feature a simplified, streamlined iteration of the Hydra UI, focused only on live and recorded linear channel TV. Work to get that content plugged into the native home screen content aggregation UIs (e.g. the TV app on Apple TV, the channel rows on Android TV, etc.). Code your client apps to take maximum advantage of the streaming client hardware. For instance, the Apple TV can handle on-the-fly decoding and de-interlacing of 1080i MPEG-2, so there would be no need for the network TiVo to transcode anything sent to it. Work to get little things like trick play, slo-mo, etc. as close as possible to the UX on a traditional TiVo DVR. Maybe even include a universal TiVo peanut remote that could be programmed easily to work in "Apple TV mode" or "Roku mode" etc.

I know others are already kinda sorta doing this -- Tablo, Channels DVR, etc. -- but no one is doing it as simply and as well as it could be done, and none of those players have the brand recognition (and patents) that TiVo does.

But I just don't see TiVo doing something like that because they're so immersed in their vision of owning the entire UX on a device and aggregating all the different kind of content that you watch, including streaming, into their own UI. Doing what I envision above would, in a sense, be TiVo saying that they recognize that streaming platforms are now king and TiVo's domain is the fading world of traditional TV, which is now taking a backseat as just another app on a streaming platform.


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> The more I think about this, while there are a few more apps I'd like, what I REALLY want is OnePass to actually work with streaming services like it should.
> 
> I don't mind at all switching inputs to watch Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO Go but what would keep me on the TiVo input is being able to select THIS WEEKS new episode/series from my Now Playing and watch it directly.
> 
> OnePass that worked like that never came to pass.


That requires cooperation from the streaming service. They have to provide the data for the shows, or an API with which TiVo can retrieve the data, and they have to provide an endpoint into their app that allows TiVo to just play the video bypassing their UI. The only one that seems to comply with that requirement even somewhat is Netflix. The rest all require some interaction with their UI to start a show playing.

The other issue with this scheme is that the controls from app to app are not consistent. Hit Clear in the main UI and it removes the play bar. Do that in Netflix and it exits the app. Hit IR in YouTube and it does nothing. Hit it in Netflix and it actually, kindof, jumps back.

The 1P was a nice idea, but it would have required massive cooperation and UI parity to really work as intended.


----------



## Dan203

One thing I just thought of.... ChromeCast. The way that works is that the device itself just streams the video. All the controls and selection of content comes from the app. I wonder why TiVo couldn't just layer on top of that? Use a similar scheme to just stream the video and then use some sort of intermediate layer to convert remote buttons to relevant app controls for the streaming service. That would have created 99% of what they were going for. I've never looked into how Chromecast "apps" actually work. Do they use an open standard? Or is there some sort of proprietary communication between the app on your phone and the "app" on the Chromecast that allows it to send secret commands that no one else could copy?


----------



## HerronScott

BobCamp1 said:


> A Fire Stick doesn't have to buffer any tuners -- you just buffer what you're currently watching. There are drawbacks to having an all-in-one device. Jack of all trades, master of none.


Umm that was my point... 

Scott


----------



## TonyD79

Dan203 said:


> That requires cooperation from the streaming service. They have to provide the data for the shows, or an API with which TiVo can retrieve the data, and they have to provide an endpoint into their app that allows TiVo to just play the video bypassing their UI. The only one that seems to comply with that requirement even somewhat is Netflix. The rest all require some interaction with their UI to start a show playing.


The thing is that Roku does it better. Crappy interface but it finds things among many apps.


----------



## mschnebly

TiVo needs to speed up it's move into streaming. It looks like Amazon is hoping to take a big chunk of it in a bunch of different ways now. TVs, Soundbars, new Cube, etc.
Amazon Goes Big on Streaming Devices - Market Realist


----------



## mschnebly

"According to an IMARC Group report, the global streaming media devices market was worth about $113 billion in 2018. It's expected to grow at a compound annual growth rate of 16% between 2019 and 2024. The increasing choice for online streaming devices is driving the industry's growth. Plus, the increased availability of the Internet and a vast online library of viewable content are boosting its growth. IMARC expects the market to grow to $272 billion by 2024." Now that's a lot of $$$


----------



## BobCamp1

HerronScott said:


> Umm that was my point...
> 
> Scott


Sorry, didn't see the smiley at the end.


----------



## shwru980r

Dan203 said:


> People who went from a Premiere to a Roamio would notice a huge difference. The Premiere was a POS. But from the Roamio onward the apps loaded just fine. The difference between a Roamio and an Bolt when loading an app is a few seconds at best. The only exception is Netflix which the Bolt holds in memory so it loads instantly. And the app loading speed on the Bolt is just fine. If all you get with an Edge is apps that load a few seconds faster then the only people who'll be upgrading are Premiere users and Roamio/Bolt users who's TiVos physically broke. If they had actually used Android TV I think a LOT of us would have upgraded from all models just to get the new app platform. I know I would have.


I notice a difference in the load times of apps between the Roamio and the Bolt. I prefer to use the Bolt. It also seemed to me that the load times of apps on the Premiere degraded over the years to the point that I switched back to the SD interface and just use it as a DVR.


----------



## Dan203

shwru980r said:


> I notice a difference in the load times of apps between the Roamio and the Bolt. I prefer to use the Bolt. It also seemed to me that the load times of apps on the Premiere degraded over the years to the point that I switched back to the SD interface and just use it as a DVR.


I can tell too, but it's not drastic. But try launching one on a Premiere and you can go make a sandwich while it loads.


----------



## trip1eX

BobCamp1 said:


> A Fire Stick doesn't have to buffer any tuners -- you just buffer what you're currently watching. There are drawbacks to having an all-in-one device. Jack of all trades, master of none.
> 
> And it's often only $15 for a Fire Stick. I use that instead of my Bolt because the apps actually work on it and there are many, many, many, many, many more apps to choose from. And unlike a Mini wireless networking is supported, because it's 2019.


yeah my brother got a Firestick. It seemed pretty speedy. And he has it wireless although I guess that is maybe the only option for it? I was actually kind of impressed with it although I didn't use it much. MIght be tough for me to buy another ATV.

Funny thing is I had to hook it up for him. He was like I thought these were supposed to be easy to hook up. He couldn't do it. And a few days before my Mom called mebecause she was trying to install it for him. No go.

I look at his setup for a minute. I take the Firetv out of the projector and plug it into the AVR. Problem solved. lol

got a free dinner for the family out of it lol.


----------



## trip1eX

mschnebly said:


> TiVo needs to speed up it's move into streaming. It looks like Amazon is hoping to take a big chunk of it in a bunch of different ways now. TVs, Soundbars, new Cube, etc.
> Amazon Goes Big on Streaming Devices - Market Realist


Sad thing is streaming has the retail market for set top boxes that Tivo always wanted to see happen with cabletv.


----------



## tommage1

For me a Tivo is for recording TV shows, movies and sports. If I wanted to stream seems there are a lot cheaper solutions. I also like to backup recordings. With TE4 way too much work, I want to be able to copy/move to another Tivo or to computer and be able to transfer back to a Tivo with everything intact. Being a recording person the Edge has no appeal for me. Assuming I understand everything about it, first of all there will be no cable and OTA in one box, going to be either or? Second am not sure if TE4 will be mandatory on Edge, if so BIG negative for me. The 2.5" drive is another HUGE negative. I only do lifetime boxes, getting up in $700+ range for a Tivo with lifetime whose usability as a recording device is limited due to phasing out of cable cards and possibly ATSC 3 coming into play makes very little sense. I only have a Bolt to test TE4 and play with 3.5" external, maybe a bit for the 4K upconverting. Otherwise give me TE3 Roamios with 3.5" easy upgrade drives, cheaper, more reliable, larger capacities and easy transferring and backups. For streamers maybe Bolt and Edge ok, not for me as a recording person (99%).


----------



## ajwees41

*Amazon Ethernet Adapter for Amazon Fire TV Devices*
https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Ether...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


----------



## tarheelblue32

ajwees41 said:


> *Amazon Ethernet Adapter for Amazon Fire TV Devices*
> https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Ethernet-Adapter-Fire-Devices/dp/B074TC662N/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=349EUT3HNJHV8&keywords=fire+stick+ethernet+adapter+4k&qid=1567787798&s=gateway&sprefix=firestick+et,aps,160&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFCVkdOS1ZXNUVIM1MmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzODgwMDcxQVFCQzlOOE9XUTZKJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5NDMwMTMyMFExTFNPNjZEWEFCJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


10/100 Ethernet in 2019? Ridiculous!


----------



## compnurd

tarheelblue32 said:


> 10/100 Ethernet in 2019? Ridiculous!


Why? What could you possibly stream from a fire stick that needs Gig?


----------



## foghorn2

You dont need more than 100 to stream from a firestick, you get the eth adapter to eliminate wireless issues.


----------



## tarheelblue32

foghorn2 said:


> You dont need more than 100 to stream from a firestick, you get the eth adapter to eliminate wireless issues.


There are lots of devices that don't necessarily need more than 100 ethernet, but most of them still have 1,000 ethernet these days anyway.


----------



## Dan203

trip1eX said:


> he has it wireless although I guess that is maybe the only option for it?


I think there is a USB dongle for it that allows it to be connected to Ethernet. But IIRC it's kind of bulky because the stick only has one USB port so it has to split that for Ethernet and power.


----------



## Dan203

tommage1 said:


> For me a Tivo is for recording TV shows, movies and sports. If I wanted to stream seems there are a lot cheaper solutions. I also like to backup recordings.


I want a single device that can do all of those things. That's why I wanted the Edge to be Android TV based. To maybe finally have it live up to the "One Box" promise of the Premiere.


----------



## fyodor

foghorn2 said:


> You dont need more than 100 to stream from a firestick, you get the eth adapter to eliminate wireless issues.


If you're streaming local high-bitrate UHD content from Plex/Emby, it makes a difference. That content can go up to up to 90-100mbit/s and usually will not stream successfully over a 100mbit/s connection.


----------



## ajwees41

See post 683 I already linked it


----------



## Dan203

fyodor said:


> If you're streaming local high-bitrate UHD content from Plex/Emby, it makes a difference. That content can go up to up to 90-100mbit/s and usually will not stream successfully over a 100mbit/s connection.


Why are people using 90-100mbps for UHD? That's excessive! Even 10bit HDR shouldn't need that much.


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Why are people using 90-100mbps for UHD? That's excessive! Even 10bit HDR shouldn't need that much.


Uncompressed 4K actually uses around 12 Gbps. So from that perspective, 100 Mbps doesn't really seem that bad.


----------



## Dan203

tarheelblue32 said:


> Uncompressed 4K actually uses around 12 Gbps. So from that perspective, 100 Mbps doesn't really seem that bad.


Yeah but we're talking about temporal encoding using HEVC. Unless it's a video of a waterfall it's a waste of bits. Even in the broadcast industry with full I frame only encoding of HD they only use 50Mbps. Now UHD is is 4x the resolution, but HEVC is also 4x as efficient as MPEG-2 so that should be a wash.


----------



## ashipkowski

Dan203 said:


> I've never looked into how Chromecast "apps" actually work. Do they use an open standard? Or is there some sort of proprietary communication between the app on your phone and the "app" on the Chromecast that allows it to send secret commands that no one else could copy?


Proprietary, but part of Android TV: Google Cast - Wikipedia


----------



## Series3Sub

compnurd said:


> Why? What could you possibly stream from a fire stick that needs Gig?


Yeah, Gig is for the LAN, even if someone has Gigabit ISP, one is NOT going to get a dowload speed from any server at Gigabit speed anyway.


----------



## Series3Sub

tarheelblue32 said:


> There are lots of devices that don't necessarily need more than 100 ethernet, but most of them still have 1,000 ethernet these days anyway.


for your LAN; they were not thinking of WAN speeds.


----------



## Series3Sub

Dan203 said:


> I want a single device that can do all of those things. That's why I wanted the Edge to be Android TV based. To maybe finally have it live up to the "One Box" promise of the Premiere.


I agree. It was big let down when experiencing how poor TiVo's performance was with the straming apps. Had TiVo been able to get the apps to perform properly on its earlier (and even current) boxes, I do think TiVo would have been more popular than it was, and it might have been in a better place today. Right now, it looks like if Amazon introduces a Recast 2nd gen, like the much better Show 2nd Gen, then I can see myself investing in that device for OTA, but I would expect more than 2 simultaneous streams at any one time.


----------



## tenthplanet

The one box solution is a single point of failure system, your hard drive goes down and you lose your recording and your streaming. Streaming devices should have no hard drives. Tivo recognizes that apps are are a hamster wheel that makes no money for them. Android TV needs work too.


----------



## Dan203

tenthplanet said:


> The one box solution is a single point of failure system, your hard drive goes down and you lose your recording and your streaming. Streaming devices should have no hard drives. Tivo recognizes that apps are are a hamster wheel that makes no money for them. Android TV needs work too.


The alternative is the Tablo solution.... a headless DVR that uses an app on commonly available streaming devices as it's main UI. That avoids the single point of failure issue and the issue of multiple remotes/devices. However there are some technical issues. The main one being that a system like this requires that all content be transcoded at record time because most (all?) streaming devices can't handle playback of cable recordings in their native format. (MPEG-2 and interlaced are both issues for most streaming devices)


----------



## fyodor

Dan203 said:


> Why are people using 90-100mbps for UHD? That's excessive! Even 10bit HDR shouldn't need that much.


A few things

1. I think that this is consistent with the compression for Blu Ray discs, which go up to 40-50 mb/s, with a quarter the resolution but also a compression scheme that is 1/2 as effective.

2. In most cases, this is content that is designed for a disc that has been ripped to a hard drive by the owner. From the disc maker's perspective, there's no downside to using very high bitrates rather than trying reach some sort of optimal tradeoff.

3. Along the lines of 2, you are stuck with whatever the content maker uses.

4. I can't say if it would change for 50mbit/s content, but I definitely can notice a qualitative difference between streaming 25mbit/s 4k content and 80-100 mbit/s content.


----------



## fyodor

Dan203 said:


> Why are people using 90-100mbps for UHD? That's excessive! Even 10bit HDR shouldn't need that much.


I would add that one way to get around this terrible situation would be if there were software that allowed local network media to be copied to the Tivo and the kind and generous people who developed that software added 4k support.


----------



## Dan203

fyodor said:


> I would add that one way to get around this terrible situation would be if there were software that allowed local network media to be copied to the Tivo and the kind and generous people who developed that software added 4k support.


Lol. Sorry I've been pretty busy with other projects. PyTivo is open source. If someone figures out how to make it work with 4k I'll gladly compile that into Desktop. Just don't have time to figure that out myself right now.


----------



## aaronwt

Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Non-retail (MSO) version of the ACQ-MG3 entered the FCC.

Nothing to add. Only difference is the removal of RF4CE/Zigbee.


----------



## alarson83

A lot of talk about streaming so far in this thread. With how this tends to be a higher-end entertainment enthusiast device, where most already probably have this hooked up to a receiver with multiple inputs (so switching to a dedicated streaming box is easy), trying to be a better streaming device than a roku (which i can flip over to just as fast as i can get into the tivo app menu) may be a futile battle. What i'd like to see tivo focus on is further improving the normal tv viewing experience. 

The first thing that comes to my head along those lines, is leveraging the fact that the device has a bunch of tuners and adding some sort of mode that allows you to watch 2 or 4 tuners at once. This would be a big feature for sports fans like myself who would love to put on multiple games on a big screen (which more and more people have as time has gone on).


----------



## Dan203

alarson83 said:


> A lot of talk about streaming so far in this thread. With how this tends to be a higher-end entertainment enthusiast device, where most already probably have this hooked up to a receiver with multiple inputs (so switching to a dedicated streaming box is easy), trying to be a better streaming device than a roku (which i can flip over to just as fast as i can get into the tivo app menu) may be a futile battle. What i'd like to see tivo focus on is further improving the normal tv viewing experience.
> 
> The first thing that comes to my head along those lines, is leveraging the fact that the device has a bunch of tuners and adding some sort of mode that allows you to watch 2 or 4 tuners at once. This would be a big feature for sports fans like myself who would love to put on multiple games on a big screen (which more and more people have as time has gone on).


Switching devices is not a good option for everyone. Having to switch remotes, which have vastly different designs, is reason enough not to want to use a different streamer. Using a TiVo as a streamer also allows me to quickly switch between streaming and watching recorded content. Switching inputs on my receiver, and remotes, does not.

If TiVo is going to force me to use a 3rd party device for streaming then at the very least they can release an app for those 3rd party streamers so I can just use them exclusively to access both my TiVo and the streaming apps. Flopping back and forth is not something I want to do.


----------



## humbb

Dan203 said:


> If TiVo is going to force me to use a 3rd party device for streaming then at the very least they can release an app for those 3rd party streamers *so I can just use them exclusively to access both my TiVo and the streaming apps*. Flopping back and forth is not something I want to do.


Using a streaming app exclusively in place of direct access to my TiVo wouldn't make any sense for me because of my ISP's 1TB monthly usage cap.


----------



## Dan203

humbb said:


> Using a streaming app exclusively in place of direct access to my TiVo wouldn't make any sense for me because of my ISP's 1TB monthly usage cap.


It would be via your local network, so your ISP cap would not apply.


----------



## humbb

Dan203 said:


> It would be via your local network, so your ISP cap would not apply.


Great, obviously I didn't realize that. Thanks!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Let the hype begin.

CEDIA Expo starts tomorrow.

This is what your TV's been waiting for.


----------



## NashGuy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Let the hype begin.
> 
> CEDIA Expo starts tomorrow.
> 
> This is what your TV's been waiting for.


So TiVo and Apple will both be unveiling their new stuff tomorrow. Should be fun!


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> So TiVo and Apple will both be unveiling their new stuff tomorrow. Should be fun!


Well, the only positive spin is that TiVo would not be at the CEDIA if they did not have something new and exciting to show. I mean, it would really be impossibly dumb to go and show up and reveal the same old thing.


----------



## trip1eX

Joe3 said:


> Well, the only positive spin is that TiVo would not be at the CEDIA if they did not have something new and exciting to show. I mean, it would really be impossibly dumb to go and show up and reveal the same old thing.


Yep that purple ad and tag line would be pretty dumb as well if it's just a slightly better Bolt.


----------



## smark

trip1eX said:


> Yep that purple ad and tag line would be pretty dumb as well if it's just a slightly better Bolt.


That is what I'm expecting though.


----------



## cwoody222

It’s not “the same old thing” or a “slightly better Bolt”. It IS a brand new product with new features.

Maybe not the features you want, but new nonetheless. And for the majority of the public, they won’t know the difference between older models.

I don’t care about a new camera in my 2 year old iPhone either. Guess tomorrow’s new iPhones won’t be new either.


----------



## cwoody222

FYI: three years ago TiVo attended CEDIA just to announce the Bolt+

Press Release | TiVo


----------



## compnurd

cwoody222 said:


> FYI: three years ago TiVo attended CEDIA just to announce the Bolt+
> 
> Press Release | TiVo


Interesting the Bolt+ was released 3 days after CEDIA then.. Wonder then if we see the Edge by the End of the week released
I expect this nice newer Edge and probably the release date on the apps


----------



## trip1eX

smark said:


> That is what I'm expecting though.


yeah i forget. I mean the bolt was just the same thing as before only slightly faster and it probably had the same type of marketing. so some fancy tag line doesn't mean anything.


----------



## trip1eX

cwoody222 said:


> It's not "the same old thing" or a "slightly better Bolt". It IS a brand new product with new features.
> 
> Maybe not the features you want, but new nonetheless. And for the majority of the public, they won't know the difference between older models.
> 
> I don't care about a new camera in my 2 year old iPhone either. Guess tomorrow's new iPhones won't be new either.


IT probably is a "slightly better bolt." even the iphone coming out is only going to be a slightly better iphone.


----------



## Joe3

Before the same group of people with magical knowledge start telling everyone else what everyone else thinks, I always raise an eyebrow and and cold chill runs down my back whenever I hear some speaking for the masses and telling me what the masses do or think. Historically, they are always been a bunch of asses.


----------



## NashGuy

trip1eX said:


> IT probably is a "slightly better bolt." even the iphone coming out is only going to be a slightly better iphone.


Yeah. But that's kind of the nature of mature tech platforms, right? And both the iPhone and TiVo are mature platforms. Hard to do much more than make slight improvements with each new model that comes out. All the big stuff has already been accomplished.


----------



## trip1eX

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. But that's kind of the nature of mature tech platforms, right? And both the iPhone and TiVo are mature platforms. Hard to do much more than make slight improvements with each new model that comes out. All the big stuff has already been accomplished.


Ok, but I wasn't wondering why we are only getting slightly better versions.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

If it did anything particularly new, one would think they would have promoted it on that leaked retail packaging or whatever that was. DV and Atmos are cool but... that's not much. It's practically a basic cost of entry for new electronics.

We'll see what happens.


----------



## Mikeguy

Would be a good occasion to bring out (for retail sale) the Mini Wireless Adapter and the streaming device apps.


----------



## trip1eX

Mikeguy said:


> Would be a good occasion to bring out (for retail sale) the Mini Wireless Adapter and the streaming device apps.


There you go. Maybe wireless streaming to MInis and Roku and AppleTV from my DVR is the big new thing for my tv.


----------



## mschnebly

NashGuy said:


> Yeah. But that's kind of the nature of mature tech platforms, right? And both the iPhone and TiVo are mature platforms. Hard to do much more than make slight improvements with each new model that comes out. All the big stuff has already been accomplished.


Do you think it is possible the Edge could also do IPTV AND Cablecard? I guess not since it's service provider dependent. I honestly cant imagine what some big new thing might be with it. I guess the audio formats + ???


----------



## OrangeCrush

mschnebly said:


> Do you think it is possible the Edge could also do IPTV AND Cablecard? I guess not since it's service provider dependent. I honestly cant imagine what some big new thing might be with it. I guess the audio formats + ???


Anything's possible, but supporting any given cable company's IPTV implementation is going to require that company (or at least its technology provider) to play ball and open up about the details of the implementation and they haven't exactly been forthcoming with that information. They like the rental revenue from the boxes they provide.

For those companies that deploy TiVos themselves, they're going with the android-based cloud-dvr boxes.

There's no technical reason why it couldn't be supported, but the political and bureaucratic hurdles make me think it's unlikely.


----------



## slowbiscuit

But but but, Tivo_Ted said they're working with Comcast on IPTV!!! 

Someday. And it was first announced FOUR YEARS AGO.


----------



## cwoody222

Bloomberg TV is running an item on their ticker that said something like "TiVo CEO wants to make up ground from streaming" but I can't find details/interview yet.

But he must have spoken to someone today.

Edit: Found it:

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

"Later this month, TiVo plans to announce new international customers, and in October it will unveil a new product, TiVo Plus, that better integrates new streaming services with the company's core TV console. After that, Shull said he'd like to design a more unified interface for the company's 22 million customers and seek additional sources of revenue other than monthly subscriptions, such as advertising."


----------



## lucidrenegade

I'm surprised we haven't seen anything more on the Edge, since Cedia started today.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

It could happen at anytime, but the exhibit hall opens on Thursday.


----------



## cwoody222

They could be staying away from the Apple announcements today. To avoid being overshadowed.


----------



## aaronwt

cwoody222 said:


> Bloomberg TV is running an item on their ticker that said something like "TiVo CEO wants to make up ground from streaming" but I can't find details/interview yet.
> 
> But he must have spoken to someone today.
> 
> Edit: Found it:
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> "Later this month, TiVo plans to announce new international customers, and in October it will unveil a new product, TiVo Plus, that better integrates new streaming services with the company's core TV console. After that, Shull said he'd like to design a more unified interface for the company's 22 million customers and seek additional sources of revenue other than monthly subscriptions, such as advertising."


Unfortunately they are many years late. Fours years ago, when the Bolt Launched, they were ahead of the game. But within the next year or two they were quickly surpassed by everyone.

It sounds like it might be too late for them to makeup for their streaming offerings. I know it is with me. I had moved on years ago to other devices that ran circles around the TiVos with streaming UHD/HDR content.

Of course TiVo still runs circles around most other devices when you are talking about DVR recordings. Which is all I use my TiVos for now. And I barely use it for that much any more. Since I'm mostly using it to watch news broadcasts. And using streaming services to watch other content.

But that has to do with the lousy video quality from FiOS and from OTA in the DC area. If that video quality was still great, I would still be using my TiVos to watch most of my broadcast content.


----------



## jimpmc

It seems like they have the right idea with the Cable MSO boxes -- combining TiVo DVR and Android TV for streaming apps. Put that together with more universal searches across other content providers (HBO Go, Starz, Showtime, etc.) and it would be a great combination. Right now, it's still hard to find a program across many streaming services. Using Android TV allows the app developers to develop for many devices.


----------



## Joe3

aaronwt said:


> Unfortunately they are many years late. Fours years ago, when the Bolt Launched, they were ahead of the game. But within the next year or two they were quickly surpassed by everyone.


Maybe I was linked to a different article. I read the following:

"The shares reflect all those troubles. After soaring early in this decade, they have declined for years. The stock traded at $8.20 Tuesday in New York, down almost 13% for 2019."

These few written sentences suggest they were not ahead of the game when the Bolt launched. The TiVo troubles began earlier than the Bolt, a lack luster product, along with TE4 that didn't bring anything new except for a new look that did not help and has been rightly argued as hurting the brand further.


----------



## NashGuy

mschnebly said:


> Do you think it is possible the Edge could also do IPTV AND Cablecard? I guess not since it's service provider dependent. I honestly cant imagine what some big new thing might be with it. I guess the audio formats + ???


Yeah, as OrangeCrush said, it just seems unlikely that we're going to see any retail TiVos that support closed IPTV systems. I think the biggest improvements that the Edge will bring are Dolby Vision HDR and Dolby Atmos audio plus built-in Alexa. (Or does the Bolt Vox already have Alexa on board?)


----------



## NashGuy

cwoody222 said:


> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
> 
> "Later this month, TiVo plans to announce new international customers, and in October it will unveil a new product, TiVo Plus, that better integrates new streaming services with the company's core TV console. After that, Shull said he'd like to design a more unified interface for the company's 22 million customers and seek additional sources of revenue other than monthly subscriptions, such as advertising."


"TiVo Plus"? Is this an error in the article and should instead read "TiVo Edge"?

Or does TiVo Plus refer to the new TiVo apps that will (supposedly) soon debut for Apple TV, Fire TV, Android TV and Roku? Those apps would, in fact, help integrate streaming services (or, specifically, streaming devices) with the core TiVo DVR. But if they've come up with a special branding for that new app platform, does that imply that there could be an associated service (i.e. fee) required to use the apps? Might you have to pay a couple bucks per month for TiVo Plus to extend access to your DVR into your streaming devices? Or has it been confirmed to us that usage of these new apps will be free?


----------



## aaronwt

Joe3 said:


> Maybe I was linked to a different article. I read the following:
> 
> "The shares reflect all those troubles. After soaring early in this decade, they have declined for years. The stock traded at $8.20 Tuesday in New York, down almost 13% for 2019."
> 
> These few written sentences suggest they were not ahead of the game when the Bolt launched. The TiVo troubles began earlier than the Bolt, a lack luster product, along with TE4 that didn't bring anything new except for a new look that did not help and has been rightly argued as hurting the brand further.


I'm talking about streaming services and UHD/HDR capability. They were ahead of the competition. And the Bolt was HDR capable as well as UHD. But they didn't even enable HDR until years later. By then, everyone else had HDR plus more streaming services that offered UHD and HDR.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> "TiVo Plus"? Is this an error in the article and should instead read "TiVo Edge"?
> 
> Or does TiVo Plus refer to the new TiVo apps that will (supposedly) soon debut for Apple TV, Fire TV, Android TV and Roku? Those apps would, in fact, help integrate streaming services (or, specifically, streaming devices) with the core TiVo DVR. But if they've come up with a special branding for that new app platform, does that imply that there could be an associated service (i.e. fee) required to use the apps? Might you have to pay a couple bucks per month for TiVo Plus to extend access to your DVR into your streaming devices? Or has it been confirmed to us that usage of these new apps will be free?


Could be over thinking, but my mind went with TiVo app stand alone with some sort of bundling for paid subscriptions and TiVo app free connected to the home TiVo device for those already paying monthly or lifetime.


----------



## shwru980r

Why didn't Tivo break away from integrated tuners with the Edge, since they are already testing an ATSC 3.0 network tuner with the Bolt?


----------



## Dan203

shwru980r said:


> Why didn't Tivo break away from integrated tuners with the Edge, since they are already testing an ATSC 3.0 network tuner with the Bolt?


Maybe they are. Do we know for sure how this is going to work yet? Maybe that's how they make it work with Android TV, but making the tuners/DVR part an external box and the part you use to access it the same Android TV unit they sell to MSOs. A headless DVR like that could also be accessed via an app from a 3rd party device. Could be the best of all worlds.


----------



## longrider

You have realize that on this forum we are not their average customer. The average customer is probably closer to the "I cant set the clock on my VCR" user so settimg up network tuners would be so far over their head it is ridiculous. It has to be take out of the box and plug it in for most people


----------



## Dan203

longrider said:


> You have realize that on this forum we are not their average customer. The average customer is probably closer to the "I cant set the clock on my VCR" user so settimg up network tuners would be so far over their head it is ridiculous. It has to be take out of the box and plug it in for most people


My idea is more like a Tablo. The DVR itself is headless and all access to it is via an app on another device. The Android TV box would just be TiVo's proprietary streamer device that's running the TiVo "app" natively.

So imagine if your current TiVo had no direct controls and you had to use a Mini to use it. Like that, but instead of a Mini it would be an app that either runs on Roku, Apple TV, FireTV or Android TV or on their own little streaming box that's running a custom version of Android TV where their "app" is the main UI of the unit.


----------



## Joe3

longrider said:


> You have realize that on this forum we are not their average customer. The average customer is probably closer to the "I cant set the clock on my VCR" user so settimg up network tuners would be so far over their head it is ridiculous. It has to be take out of the box and plug it in for most people


Well, talk about being headless


----------



## trip1eX

I thought we were supposed to hear about the Tivo Edge yesterday?!?!

Now realizing it was someone hoping and guessing. I saw that promo and assumed it was a sure thing.


----------



## dsm363

My TiVo Roamio Pro just stopped working this morning. Might just be the power adapter but hope the Edge comes out soon.

Anyone know if TiVo will force their new interface to be used on newer models? The old folder structure of the previous interface is fine. I upgraded to the new one once and reformatted it to go back to the old version.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

dsm363 said:


> Anyone know if TiVo will force their new interface to be used on newer models? The old folder structure of the previous interface is fine. I upgraded to the new one once and reformatted it to go back to the old version.


Bolt OTA forces TE4, future boxes probably will too.


----------



## longrider

Dan203 said:


> My idea is more like a Tablo. The DVR itself is headless and all access to it is via an app on another device. The Android TV box would just be TiVo's proprietary streamer device that's running the TiVo "app" natively.
> 
> So imagine if your current TiVo had no direct controls and you had to use a Mini to use it. Like that, but instead of a Mini it would be an app that either runs on Roku, Apple TV, FireTV or Android TV or on their own little streaming box that's running a custom version of Android TV where their "app" is the main UI of the unit.


I agree with your point, i was replying to the post before yours about why didn't TiVo move away from integrated tuners. While it is not a technical hurdle i do see people objecting to the "extra box" of a headless server. DirecTV went that route with the HS17 and while most people were OK with it there were still complainers from both the extra box aspect and a client is never as responsive as an actual DVR


----------



## Joe3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Bolt OTA forces TE4, future boxes probably will too.


Then it's like your crazy auntie re-gifting last years Christmas sweater you never asked for and wrapping it in fancier paper and a new box and giving it to you again this Christmas.


----------



## Dan203

I'd be willing to live with TE4 if it meant it was an Android TV device with better/newer/more apps. If it's a rehash of a Bolt with slightly better hardware, no way.


----------



## NashGuy

longrider said:


> I agree with your point, i was replying to the post before yours about why didn't TiVo move away from integrated tuners. While it is not a technical hurdle i do see people objecting to the "extra box" of a headless server. DirecTV went that route with the HS17 and while most people were OK with it there were still complainers from both the extra box aspect and a client is never as responsive as an actual DVR


I think the biggest issue with the HS17 was that it was just glitchy/buggy. But I really don't think having a headless DVR server box is a big deal for most consumers in 2019. I tried out a Tablo for a little while and found it no more difficult to set up than a TiVo, to be honest. Super easy, with clear instructions that involved only a few steps. It did require using their app on a smartphone or tablet, so I guess that would be a no-go for some folks. But aren't the vast, vast majority of those folks just sticking with whatever hardware their pay TV provider gives them anyhow? Frankly, dealing with the hassles of CableCARD (and possibly tuning adapters to boot) seems to me to be WAY more off-putting than setting up a headless DVR.


----------



## compnurd

NashGuy said:


> I think the biggest issue with the HS17 was that it was just glitchy/buggy. But I really don't think having a headless DVR server box is a big deal for most consumers in 2019. I tried out a Tablo for a little while and found it no more difficult to set up than a TiVo, to be honest. Super easy, with clear instructions that involved only a few steps. It did require using their app on a smartphone or tablet, so I guess that would be a no-go for some folks. But aren't the vast, vast majority of those folks just sticking with whatever hardware their pay TV provider gives them anyhow? Frankly, dealing with the hassles of CableCARD (and possibly tuning adapters to boot) seems to me to be WAY more off-putting than setting up a headless DVR.


The HS17 is not glitchy or buggy and was not glitchy or buggy. Unless you had one refrain from giving a opinion on hardware from internet people who like to complain I have had one for 18 months with 6 clients with zero issues beyond Directv clients are about twice as slow as the original Tivo mini and Directv can't write software to save there life


----------



## NashGuy

compnurd said:


> The HS17 is not glitchy or buggy and was not glitchy or buggy. Unless you had one refrain from giving a opinion on hardware from internet people who like to complain I have had one for 18 months with 6 clients with zero issues beyond Directv clients are about twice as slow as the original Tivo mini and Directv can't write software to save there's life


There are LOT of posters on the satellite forms who disagree with your personal experience. Maybe DirecTV has ironed out the bugs on the HS17 by now but a lot of folks had problems with it, an usual amount versus the traditional line of Genie DVRs (HR-34, HR-44, HR-54).

Your experience = one data point. Sorry, you can't extrapolate any meaningful conclusions from that.


----------



## compnurd

NashGuy said:


> There are LOT of posters on the satellite forms who disagree with your personal experience. Maybe DirecTV has ironed out the bugs on the HS17 by now but a lot of folks had problems with it, an usual amount versus the traditional line of Genie DVRs (HR-34, HR-44, HR-54).
> 
> Your experience = one data point. Sorry, you can't extrapolate any meaningful conclusions from that.


Considering you are adding in the HR34 to your argument proves even more how little you know. The HR34 was a disaster. Admitted by Directv to be horribly underpowered. They even upgraded people for free to a HR44 is they called to complain about it And the "satellite" forums were littered with complaints about it. I have seen the few same people complain about the HS17. A lot of complaints by people who didn't even have one. The unit runs the same exact software as the HR44/54.


----------



## Phil T

compnurd said:


> The HS17 is not glitchy or buggy and was not glitchy or buggy. Unless you had one refrain from giving a opinion on hardware from internet people who like to complain I have had one for 18 months with 6 clients with zero issues beyond Directv clients are about twice as slow as the original Tivo mini and Directv can't write software to save there life


I was a tester for the HS17. The HS17 drove me to leave DirecTV. I had software downloads make two of my C41W clients inoperable and then DirecTV expected me to pay for replacements. The C61K took years to get stable, if it is. I tested the HS17 with 2 C61K's and 2 C41W's in November 2016, ran it for a year and then gave up.

How much new satellite equipment has DirecTV announced since then. Zero. AT&T destroyed what was once a great service. Good luck with their overseas CSR's!


----------



## compnurd

Phil T said:


> I was a tester for the HS17. The HS17 drove me to leave DirecTV. I had software downloads make two of my C41W clients inoperable and then DirecTV expected me to pay for replacements. The C61K took years to get stable, if it is. I tested the HS17 with 2 C61K's and 2 C41W's in November 2016, ran it for a year and then gave up.
> 
> How much new satellite equipment has DirecTV announced since then. Zero. AT&T destroyed what was once a great service. Good luck with their overseas CSR's!


Directv has never charged for defective hardware. Something is off here. You call. Tell them X device is dead. New X device is on your doorstep in 1-2 days


----------



## Phil T

compnurd said:


> Directv has never charged for defective hardware. Something is off here. You call. Tell them X device is dead. New X device is on your doorstep in 1-2 days


Nope, was told to go through regular channels to get replacements. CSR's wanted $99.00 each plus shipping. I did not have the protection plan. I had to fight like hxxx to get them replaced N/C. Then they extended my commitment. I gave up shortly after that because being on the phone for hours with inept overseas CSR's was not what I wanted to do any longer. I had to go through "office of the president" to get my commitment removed and cancel service. BTW, I was a 14 year customer at the time.


----------



## Phil T

Also realize you are not dealing with DirecTV any longer. Unless your account has not been merged yet, you are dealing with AT&T.


----------



## NashGuy

Phil T said:


> I was a tester for the HS17. The HS17 drove me to leave DirecTV. I had software downloads make two of my C41W clients inoperable and then DirecTV expected me to pay for replacements. The C61K took years to get stable, if it is. I tested the HS17 with 2 C61K's and 2 C41W's in November 2016, ran it for a year and then gave up.
> 
> How much new satellite equipment has DirecTV announced since then. Zero. AT&T destroyed what was once a great service. Good luck with their overseas CSR's!


The DBS Talk and SatelliteGuys forums contain LOTS of posts like yours. Some of the regular posters there who seem to know everything there is to know about DirecTV indicate that most folks are better off just avoiding the HS17. Although, as I say, AT&T may have worked out the worst of its bugs by now (after 2-3 years).


----------



## shwru980r

longrider said:


> I agree with your point, i was replying to the post before yours about why didn't TiVo move away from integrated tuners. While it is not a technical hurdle i do see people objecting to the "extra box" of a headless server. DirecTV went that route with the HS17 and while most people were OK with it there were still complainers from both the extra box aspect and a client is never as responsive as an actual DVR


I think headless means there are no video outputs on the DVR, i.e. HDMI,Component/Composite/RF. I think a network tuner might affect the responsiveness of changing channels, but not affect the navigation of the user interface.


----------



## NashGuy

shwru980r said:


> I think headless means there are no video outputs on the DVR, i.e. HDMI,Component/Composite/RF. I think a network tuner might affect the responsiveness of changing channels, but not affect the navigation of the user interface.


It would depend on the capabilities of the front-end device you're using. For instance, I use the Channels app on an Apple TV 4K box as my front-end device in conjunction with a headless network OTA tuner (HDHomeRun Connect). But because the Apple TV has hardware-enabled decoding for MPEG-2 and can easily de-interlace 1080i and 480i signals in software, there's zero need for transcoding. The Apple TV and the network tuner (as well as the Mac I use for OTA DVR recordings) are all connected to the router via ethernet. Everything is fast and responsive. Live channels change in under 1 second. I really see no difference in responsiveness versus just connecting an OTA antenna straight into my LG TV and changing channels there with the LG remote.

But that's a best-case scenario. If you're using a less powerful streaming device and/or wifi connections, channels might change more slowly. And many models of Roku cannot do MPEG-2 decoding (or de-interlacing), so the only way they can work with OTA tuners is if the signal is first transcoded to progressive-scan MPEG-4, which introduces lag in channel changes and can also soften the picture a bit.


----------



## lucidrenegade

Still no news yet....


----------



## jimpmc

Isn't CEDIA's exhibition hall open now?


----------



## WVZR1

NashGuy said:


> The DBS Talk and SatelliteGuys forums contain LOTS of posts like yours. Some of the regular posters there who seem to know everything there is to know about DirecTV indicate that most folks are better off just avoiding the HS17. Although, as I say, AT&T may have worked out the worst of its bugs by now (after 2-3 years).


And you certainly don't mind passing it on!!!! OVER THERE - OVER THERE !!!! seems to be a 'FIT' for you of much of your info!! Most of yours contains the 'I THINK' - seldom an 'I KNOW' from personal experience!

Tell us about your stuff - purchased and in everyday use!!!

***I hadn't yet seen #762 when I posted!!!

Seeing what you mention it seems it would be of little 'concern' for you regarding most of what you comment on!!

Yours is an interesting 'fit' for some but certainly ain't for me in 'rural WV'!!


----------



## compnurd

Phil T said:


> Nope, was told to go through regular channels to get replacements. CSR's wanted $99.00 each plus shipping. I did not have the protection plan. I had to fight like hxxx to get them replaced N/C. Then they extended my commitment. I gave up shortly after that because being on the phone for hours with inept overseas CSR's was not what I wanted to do any longer. I had to go through "office of the president" to get my commitment removed and cancel service. BTW, I was a 14 year customer at the time.


Regular channels for replacements is still free.. The Protection Plan only covers shipping


----------



## compnurd

NashGuy said:


> The DBS Talk and SatelliteGuys forums contain LOTS of posts like yours. Some of the regular posters there who seem to know everything there is to know about DirecTV indicate that most folks are better off just avoiding the HS17. Although, as I say, AT&T may have worked out the worst of its bugs by now (after 2-3 years).


They dont.. They contain alot of posts from people who dont have a HS17 but like to complain about it because they cant use other recievers with it And most of the more seasoned guys there have a HS17


----------



## sd2528

Why don't you argue about what they say on those boards on those boards. It's a little off topic here.


----------



## cwoody222

jimpmc said:


> Isn't CEDIA's exhibition hall open now?


Yes, since 9am Denver time.

This doesn't look good...


----------



## jaselzer

hmm


----------



## compnurd

cwoody222 said:


> Yes, since 9am Denver time.
> 
> This doesn't look good...


What doesnt look good? They are there.. Show is still going on.. Just because nothing has leaked doesnt mean anything


----------



## cwoody222

It’s open to the public today. There’s nothing to “leak”.

If they were showing something, they would be announcing it.

Typically Fridays are a poor day to do that type of thing.

We’ll see...


----------



## JoeKustra

cwoody222 said:


> Typically Fridays are a poor day to do that type of thing.
> We'll see...


Friday the 13th.


----------



## Dan203

Do they have a public booth? Or is it invite only like they usually do at CES?


----------



## trip1eX

Didn't someone say Tivo Plus is coming in October? That's probably when we'll hear about the Edge.


----------



## JackMcC

The new look is better than the Tivo Bolt at least...

This Is The TiVo Edge









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

JackMcC said:


> The new look is better than the Tivo Bolt at least...
> 
> This Is The TiVo Edge
> View attachment 43257
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Really? I thought it was the Edge perched on a display case or a laptop, etc. cooling pad--I didn't originally think that the lower section was part of the box, lol.


----------



## JackMcC

Mikeguy said:


> Really? I thought it was the Edge perched on a display case or a laptop, etc. cooling pad--I didn't originally think that the lower section was part of the box, lol.


You can see an LED or switch on the bottom front right if you look close up.

Truthfully I'm surprised the didn't rotate the top half 5-10 degrees to look unusual like the Bolt.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

JackMcC said:


> You can see an LED or switch on the bottom front right if you look close up.
> 
> Truthfully I'm surprised the didn't rotate the top half 5-10 degrees to look unusual like the Bolt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


It is the box. Who really cares?


----------



## aaronwt

Mikeguy said:


> Really? I thought it was the Edge perched on a display case or a laptop, etc. cooling pad--I didn't originally think that the lower section was part of the box, lol.


Dave mentioned that " ...the aesthetic is more Playstation....". And the playstation has a similar gap like.

Sent from my Tab S 10.5


----------



## Mikeguy

JackMcC said:


> You can see an LED or switch on the bottom front right if you look close up.
> 
> Truthfully I'm surprised the didn't rotate the top half 5-10 degrees to look unusual like the Bolt.


Yep--when I saw those lights, that's when I thought that it wasn't the Edge sitting on a display shelf, but rather the Edge on a fan-based cooling pad.


----------



## Joe3

lucidrenegade said:


> Still no news yet....


In TiVo's case, no news is good new news.

I rather they don't repeat their bad history of releasing a product that is full of bugs because they rushed to meet some deadline. In tech, deadlines must be fluid to accommodate unforeseen new adds and changes that may have not been part of the original build, but must be done because it is more economical to do it before a release. This also drags out testing that must be done more than once with each change. It is seldom that after all is done that the test themselves don't require going back to fix what was discovered during testing. TiVo may not have the best computer engineers, but they don't need them if they follow basic protocol that eliminates bugs. They are not in a race to the finish in the conventional sense. Project being delayed for many months must always be preferable to releasing a project on time that does not work.


----------



## trip1eX

I would think autoskip would be on the back of the box. Not 1 button press skipmode.


----------



## mrsean

cwoody222 said:


> It's open to the public today. There's nothing to "leak".
> 
> If they were showing something, they would be announcing it.
> 
> Typically Fridays are a poor day to do that type of thing.
> 
> We'll see...


I read something that led me to believe the announcement will be this Saturday the last day of CEDIA.


----------



## lucidrenegade

mrsean said:


> I read something that led me to believe the announcement will be this Saturday the last day of CEDIA.


Seems like a dumb idea to make a product announcement on a weekend, but this is Tivo we're talking about...


----------



## NashGuy

lucidrenegade said:


> Seems like a dumb idea to make a product announcement on a weekend, but this is Tivo we're talking about...


Yeah, that would be a super-odd choice. Typically you want to roll out your stuff on the first day of the show, or even the day before, and always on a weekday when it can get maximum media coverage and attention. But I guess anything is possible.

I figure that, in all likelihood, they weren't quite ready to reveal their new stuff at CEDIA and they'll just send out a press release (and website update) in October to announce the new TiVo Edge and TiVo Plus (whatever that is).


----------



## Joe3

Innovation and ideas continue to come together and be delivered to the home. But each step forward, in an around the television is a step back for TiVo if it remains standing still without anything to add that is forward thinking and new.

Even though you may not have any use for the following features that is being launched by Facebook, it creates buzz and buzz not only sells, it keeps new, and keeps a familiar product from obsolescence.

Facebook Is Launching a Portal TV Device: Here's What We Know
Facebook Is Launching a Portal TV Device: Here's What We Know


----------



## NashGuy

Joe3 said:


> Innovation and ideas continue to come together and be delivered to the home. But each step forward, in an around the television is a step back for TiVo if it remains standing still without anything to add that is forward thinking and new.
> 
> Even though you may not have any use for the following features that is being launched by Facebook, it creates buzz and buzz not only sells, it keeps new, and keeps a familiar product from obsolescence.
> 
> Facebook Is Launching a Portal TV Device: Here's What We Know
> Facebook Is Launching a Portal TV Device: Here's What We Know


Interesting. Last thing I personally trust Facebook with is a camera/speaker-equipped device in my home but then they lost me as an active user quite awhile back for various reasons.

At any rate, I remain skeptical of their ability to become a real force in the world of video entertainment. Too many powerful players with big head starts.


----------



## Joe3

NashGuy said:


> Interesting. Last thing I personally trust Facebook with is a camera/speaker-equipped device in my home but then they lost me as an active user quite awhile back for various reasons.
> 
> At any rate, I remain skeptical of their ability to become a real force in the world of video entertainment. Too many powerful players with big head starts.


Yet, if TiVo came out with this idea years ago, and weren't trying to be king of the schleps, who knows, paraphrasing Marlon Brando, On The Home Entertainment Waterfront 
*
*He says. _*"You shoulda looked out for me a little bit. You shoulda taken care of me, just a little bit, so I wouldn't have to take them dives for the short-end money...I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am."*_


----------



## steinbch

They definitely were talking about the Edge at some point today. Take a look at this photo from their Twitter feed:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172623321688469504


----------



## Mikeguy

steinbch said:


> They definitely were talking about the Edge at some point today. Take a look at this photo from their Twitter feed:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172623321688469504


Nice guys there, I'm sure, but what a representation of the demographics of Silicon Valley industry.


----------



## Dan203

Actually they're a bit on the older side. Most of the white/asian guys in the Valley are in their 20s/30s.


----------



## compnurd

steinbch said:


> They definitely were talking about the Edge at some point today. Take a look at this photo from their Twitter feed:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172623321688469504


There is either

A- No one there who gives a damn about the Edge to leak something
B-They are making people sign a waiver before they talk to them in the booth
C-Telling people nothing and revealing everything today


----------



## DigitalDawn

TiVo wasn't on the show floor, but rather, they were tucked away in a room on the 1st floor of the Convention Center.

I met with most of those guys yesterday -- even briefly met TiVo Ted. Still not a whole bunch of news. 

The Edge has a faster processor than the bolt and much better better thermal management. They were even more sketchy about the TiVo+ Service. I got the feeling that the channels they would be adding are not the normal Cable TV channels, but rather some other obscure stuff. 

Perhaps I can get some more info today.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo wasn't on the show floor, but rather, they were tucked away in a room on the 1st floor of the Convention Center.
> 
> I met with most of those guys yesterday -- even briefly met TiVo Ted. Still not a whole bunch of news.
> 
> The Edge has a faster processor than the bolt and much better better thermal management. They were even more sketchy about the TiVo+ Service. I got the feeling that the channels they would be adding are not the normal Cable TV channels, but rather some other obscure stuff.
> 
> Perhaps I can get some more info today.


That's disappointing but not surprising they are going to add obscure channels no one cares about. Aside from some improvements in speed and temperature it's really nothing new. Sad!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yay, double-down on that Opera license and behold the wondrous content of acorn and RedBull TV at lightening fast Edge speeds. 

Lucky for us we're probably all getting it in the fall/winter update.

I can appreciate better thermals, sounds like they listened there, but that's a $12 fan replacement for anyone who cares enough.


----------



## Joe3

steinbch said:


> They definitely were talking about the Edge at some point today. Take a look at this photo from their Twitter feed:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172623321688469504


Speculation is the reason that TiVo show floor people should keep their months shut and go back to giving out TiVo marketing objects needed for or connecting with the TiVo brand. It just a good way to change the subject while smiling at costumers giving them something positive and fun to post about.

But noooo. Hey, when is the next all expense TiVo paid tropical publicity junket boys lacking girls!


----------



## compnurd

Dolby Vision is the bigger deal here Especially if apps support it


----------



## tarheelblue32

Dan203 said:


> Actually they're a bit on the older side. Most of the white/asian guys in the Valley are in their 20s/30s.


"Cauc/asian" would have looked snazzier here.


----------



## tarheelblue32

DigitalDawn said:


> The Edge has a faster processor than the bolt and much better better thermal management.


So basically the Edge is what the Bolt should have been. Doesn't overheat, not a weird shape/color, and supports Dolby Vision/Atmos.


----------



## Mikeguy

tarheelblue32 said:


> So basically the Edge is what the Bolt should have been. Doesn't overheat, not a weird shape/color, and supports Dolby Vision/Atmos.


Except that, my Bolt doesn't overheat, and I like its shape and color and find the Edge's rectangle-on-a-rectangle a bit blah and odd (but it's fine enough).


----------



## NashGuy

DigitalDawn said:


> TiVo wasn't on the show floor, but rather, they were tucked away in a room on the 1st floor of the Convention Center.
> 
> I met with most of those guys yesterday -- even briefly met TiVo Ted. Still not a whole bunch of news.
> 
> The Edge has a faster processor than the bolt and much better better thermal management. They were even more sketchy about the TiVo+ Service. I got the feeling that the channels they would be adding are not the normal Cable TV channels, but rather some other obscure stuff.
> 
> Perhaps I can get some more info today.


Thanks for the scoop! As for TiVo Plus, based on what you're saying, perhaps it'll be the same kind of thing as LG's Channel Plus, which simply appends live-streaming channels supplied by Xumo TV to the OTA dial. In the case of TiVo Plus, it would add to either your OTA or your CableCARD-delivered channels. But unlike LG's implementation, I would expect TiVo to allow users to pause and do trick play with those streaming channels. Whether or not they could actually be recorded, though, I dunno. Frankly, I've never seen any of those live streaming channel platforms like Xumo or Pluto TV even post multi-hour schedules. They just tend to show you what's airing now and for maybe the next couple hours on their grid.


----------



## compnurd

tarheelblue32 said:


> So basically the Edge is what the Bolt should have been. Doesn't overheat, not a weird shape/color, and supports Dolby Vision/Atmos.


Dolby Vision wasn't expected to survive when they did the Bolt It hasn't really been adopted heavily till the last two years


----------



## JackMcC

What I'd like to see (which isn't going to happen) would be firmware based tuners that are reconfigurable on the fly using an FPGA to either the ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 standard. It would be much more practical to how things are changing. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## mrsean

tarheelblue32 said:


> So basically the Edge is what the Bolt should have been. Doesn't overheat, not a weird shape/color, and supports Dolby Vision/Atmos.


Too bad it doesn't support a 3.5" hard drive. That is Bolt/Edge's biggest Achilles heel IMO.


----------



## schatham

steinbch said:


> They definitely were talking about the Edge at some point today. Take a look at this photo from their Twitter feed:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172623321688469504


Can someone with twitter tweet them "bring back live guide".

TiVo (@TiVo) | Twitter


----------



## foghorn2

tarheelblue32 said:


> "Cauc/asian" would have looked snazzier here.


CockAsians, chickens from the Asian continent..


----------



## tarheelblue32

foghorn2 said:


> CockAsians, chickens from the Asian continent..


----------



## tenthplanet

mrsean said:


> Too bad it doesn't support a 3.5" hard drive. That is Bolt/Edge's biggest Achilles heel IMO.


Since computers have been moving away for towers towards laptops, I don't think you'll even see a 3.5 hard drive within 5 years.


----------



## tenthplanet

Mikeguy said:


> Except that, my Bolt doesn't overheat, and I like its shape and color and find the Edge's rectangle-on-a-rectangle a bit blah and odd (but it's fine enough).


If it looks like a cable box, I want back up buttons and a clock on the front. Otherwise the Bolt form factor is fine.


----------



## JackMcC

tenthplanet said:


> Since computers have been moving away for towers towards laptops, I don't think you'll even see a 3.5 hard drive within 5 years.


PC desktop computers will never go extinct since a laptop with a similar CPU or GPU will never run consistently as fast and be regularly throttled back in speed to conserve both power and minimize the need for heat dissapation. Therefore the need for 3.5" drives will never go away.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## snerd

JackMcC said:


> PC desktop computers will never go extinct since a laptop with a similar CPU or GPU will never run consistently as fast and be regularly throttled back in speed to conserve both power and minimize the need for heat dissapation. Therefore the need for 3.5" drives will never go away.


While I agree that 3.5" drives will still be around well beyond 5 years from now, nothing lasts forever. The time will come when a 3.5" form factor will seem, in hindsight, to be ridiculously bulky and cumbersome compared to whatever superceeds it. There is a reason that 8" floppy disks were replaced by 5" inch floppy disks, which gave way to 3" floppy disks, which are now pretty much obsolete.


----------



## tenthplanet

JackMcC said:


> PC desktop computers will never go extinct since a laptop with a similar CPU or GPU will never run consistently as fast and be regularly throttled back in speed to conserve both power and minimize the need for heat dissapation. Therefore the need for 3.5" drives will never go away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Outside of gaming there is no call for towers, and the low end ones are really laptops without screens. (have a look inside one). Entry level tower market is dying. As the companies go to remote work whole offices have dumped their towers for laptops.


----------



## DigitalDawn

They did say that a new update is coming when I asked about the Mini and issues with Amazon Prime and the A92/A93's. They would not confirm if TE3 users would get the update. I have a feeling those days might be over.


----------



## JackMcC

tenthplanet said:


> Outside of gaming there is no call for towers, and the low end ones are really laptops without screens. (have a look inside one). Entry level tower market is dying. As the companies go to remote work whole offices have dumped their towers for laptops.


Kind of a gross simplification since a laptop CPU is not exactly the same as a desktop CPU for reasons I stated earlier. There is also the video editing and 3d animation market which require large 4k screens and the appropriate GPU and CPU power to compress, decompress and render images. It's more cost effective to do this with a desktop than a laptop with a docking station.

I will agree the market for desktops is becoming smaller by the day but it never go obsolete.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikeguy

JackMcC said:


> Kind of a gross simplification since a laptop CPU is not exactly the same as a desktop CPU for reasons I stated earlier. There is also the video editing and 3d animation market which require large 4k screens and the appropriate GPU and CPU power to compress, decompress and render images. It's more cost effective to do this with a desktop than a laptop with a docking station.
> 
> I will agree the market for desktops is becoming smaller by the day but it never go obsolete.


Desktops are way big in the business world, where there may be no need for a laptop for desk work and where the savings can be way significant.


----------



## Dan203

tenthplanet said:


> Outside of gaming there is no call for towers, and the low end ones are really laptops without screens. (have a look inside one). Entry level tower market is dying. As the companies go to remote work whole offices have dumped their towers for laptops.


I use a tower, but I also have two 4TB RAIDs inside my PC because I get a LOT of large video files for my job.


----------



## SullyND

Mikeguy said:


> Desktops are way big in the business world, where there may be no need for a laptop for desk work and where the savings can be way significant.


I haven't had a physical PC at my desk for at least five years. There's a little terminal box that accesses my VDI.


----------



## trip1eX

yeah the current trend is everything moves to the cloud.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

SullyND said:


> I haven't had a physical PC at my desk for at least five years. There's a little terminal box that accesses my VDI.


It just depends on what kind of work you do. As mentioned some folks need a desktop for the speed and power and others like me only need a laptop. And some like you just need a terminal.


----------



## randian

trip1eX said:


> yeah the current trend is everything moves to the cloud.


Everything old is new again.


----------



## SullyND

PSU_Sudzi said:


> It just depends on what kind of work you do. As mentioned some folks need a desktop for the speed and power and others like me only need a laptop. And some like you just need a terminal.


Yeah, some, like me, do advanced 3D modeling and graphics. My "terminal" connects to a VDI with Xeon processors, 48GB of RAM, and Nvidia GRID graphics.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

SullyND said:


> Yeah, some, like me, do advanced 3D modeling and graphics. My "terminal" connects to a VDI with Xeon processors, 48GB of RAM, and Nvidia GRID graphics.


Right and that's insane horsepower for a laptop though would be awesome.


----------



## SullyND

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Right and that's insane horsepower for a laptop though would be awesome.


We have three levels of VDI, all connect to the same terminal. Mine is the "mid level", we have one with more horsepower, and one with less for people who mostly use MS Office.

The beauty of the setup is I have the same machine/horsepower available to me at my desk, my neighbors desk, the conference room, on my smartphone, iPad, laptop, Chromebook, etc.


----------



## HenryPolk87

Looks like the sign up page for Edge is up on website.

This is what your TV's been waiting for.


----------



## JackMcC

Doing your work on the server is great until the server goes down for maintenance which for me is quite often and I have no charge number to use because my employer doesnt want you to charge dept overhead. At least with a PC can contine to access my work.

Although, looking back it seems strange that I initially went from a Sun terminal in the early 90s to a PC workstation and now to a laptop with a docking station. Also, there's talk of going back to terminals but on a Windows server primarily for security and cost. The only difference is that I'll be able to log in from home now. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## tommage1

HenryPolk87 said:


> Looks like the sign up page for Edge is up on website.
> 
> This is what your TV's been waiting for.


I will be interested to see what pricing is going to be. More than a current 6 tuner Vox? I know they cleared out a lot of Bolt/Vox in the recent promos. If price the same I'd guess another sale on remaining Bolt/Vox. Am really waiting to see what pricing will be on the OTA model when it comes out..................... Wonder if they will ever do a cable/OTA in one model, probably not.


----------



## tenthplanet

Dan203 said:


> I use a tower, but I also have two 4TB RAIDs inside my PC because I get a LOT of large video files for my job.


For that type of work you'll need power and storage. That's more specialized and custom where towers actually make sense.


----------



## HenryPolk87

We should find information out on these products around this week. As the first day of Fall is Next Monday. (9/23/18)
Two OTA, and 1 cable units devices it seems...


----------



## randian

tommage1 said:


> Wonder if they will ever do a cable/OTA in one model, probably not.


That's a big reason I'm holding onto my Roamio Basic.


----------



## longrider

I signed up on that list as all it is is info. The key thing for me will be if they will transfer my lifetime from the Bolt to the Edge. If not I will be using the bolt for a long time


----------



## smark

Interesting. Don't think I've seen the below before.


> © 2019 TiVo Platform Technologies LLC. All rights reserved. TiVo, the TiVo logo and the TiVo silhouette logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Brands LLC or its subsidiaries worldwide.


----------



## NashGuy

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?


It would surprise me if it could be rolled back to TE3. In general, once companies deprecate a particular OS, they don't support it on new models that roll out thereafter. Like how you can't install an earlier version of MacOS than the one that ships on a new Mac.


----------



## trip1eX

randian said:


> Everything old is new again.


yep back to the mainframe/terminal era.


----------



## DigitalDawn

PSU_Sudzi said:


> I wonder if the Edge will be able to be rolled back to TE3?


I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

DigitalDawn said:


> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.


I guess the die has been cast, thanks for the update!


----------



## Mikeguy

DigitalDawn said:


> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.


I understand TiVo's motivation, but this also will dis-incentivize people who are on TE3 from trying TE4, including as the latter continues improving/adds further features over time.


----------



## NashGuy

OK, so it looks like the TiVo Edge won't offer access to all those Android TV apps on the Google Play store. But here's an interesting concept for cloud-based deployment of Android apps. This company ActiveVideo maintains all the Android apps on their cloud server and then just about any internet-connected STB can hook into that. The apps never actually install on the local box. If this takes off, maybe TiVo could strike a deal to integrate their service into TiVo retail devices (and drop the HTML5 app platform they use now).

ActiveVideo offers Android apps without the Android TV


----------



## Joe3

Mikeguy said:


> I understand TiVo's motivation, but this also will dis-incentivize people who are on TE3 from trying TE4, including as the latter continues improving/adds further features over time.


Unless, they do the logical thing. (Something the TE4 never was and never will be) Go to TE5.

TE4 is none starter, period. The person behind it should be fired or sued for the equivalent of software engineering malpractice. The guide elimination, not allowing simple back and forth network PC transfers, the future is better than this TE4. Retire the TE4, bury it in the past where it belongs. Put it on the dusty self with Microsoft Vista. Come out with a new TE5 that returns the best and adds the rest.


----------



## NashGuy

DigitalDawn said:


> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.


Did you by any chance see any trace of the new TiVo app for Apple TV, Fire TV, Roku or Android TV? Or get any kind of status update on when they'll release?


----------



## d_anders

tenthplanet said:


> If it looks like a cable box, I want back up buttons and a clock on the front. Otherwise the Bolt form factor is fine.


The original Series 3 had an lcd display up front.

The Bolt Form factor is horrible. Their return rate on Bolts due to poor heat management and failures partially drove the new design.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aaronwt

JackMcC said:


> PC desktop computers will never go extinct since a laptop with a similar CPU or GPU will never run consistently as fast and be regularly throttled back in speed to conserve both power and minimize the need for heat dissapation. Therefore the need for 3.5" drives will never go away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


They expect platter hard drive sales to drop 50% over the next year. Because more Solid State Drives are being installed, instead of platter drives.

Your average user has no need for a platter drive. Since they don't need a bunch of storage. So a 500GB or 1TB SSD is way more than enough storage for your average user.

Personally I use cheap NVMe drives in most of my PCs now for the OS. They get 2000MB/s read speeds and 1000MB/s write speeds. Then I have two SSDs installed(500+MB/s read/write). Between 240GB to 1TB in size. And then they have one internal platter drive. Between 1TB and 6TB in size.


----------



## Dan203

NashGuy said:


> OK, so it looks like the TiVo Edge won't offer access to all those Android TV apps on the Google Play store. But here's an interesting concept for cloud-based deployment of Android apps. This company ActiveVideo maintains all the Android apps on their cloud server and then just about any internet-connected STB can hook into that. The apps never actually install on the local box. If this takes off, maybe TiVo could strike a deal to integrate their service into TiVo retail devices (and drop the HTML5 app platform they use now).
> 
> ActiveVideo offers Android apps without the Android TV


Maybe this is what TiVo+ is.


----------



## cwoody222

Dan203 said:


> Maybe this is what TiVo+ is.


I thought it was this

TiVo Edge (Series 7 DVR for Cable)


----------



## TonyD79

Joe3 said:


> Unless, they do the logical thing. (Something the TE4 never was and never will be) Go to TE5.
> 
> TE4 is none starter, period. The person behind it should be fired or sued for the equivalent of software engineering malpractice. The guide elimination, not allowing simple back and forth network PC transfers, the future is better than this TE4. Retire the TE4, bury it in the past were it belongs. Put it on the dusty self with Microsoft Vista. Come out with a new TE5 that returns the best and adds the rest.


There are a lot of us who disagree with this assessment.


----------



## JoeKustra

TonyD79 said:


> There are a lot of us who disagree with this assessment.


Is none starter a thing? I think "where in the past" is correcter. If you're going to B..., at least get the English right.


----------



## randian

While they’re doing TE5, how about a proper local-network settings migration tool? On the other hand, they’ve put off such an obvious feature so long there might not be a next box to migrate to.


----------



## sd2528

TonyD79 said:


> There are a lot of us who disagree with this assessment.


How can you? Even if you don't like the old guide and even if you don't like to transfer things on and off your TiVo, why do you not want other users to be able to do it if they want?


----------



## Dan203

cwoody222 said:


> I thought it was this
> 
> TiVo Edge (Series 7 DVR for Cable)


Missed that


----------



## Joe3

TonyD79 said:


> There are a lot of us who disagree with this assessment.


And there are more of us with one foot out the door.


----------



## compnurd

Joe3 said:


> And there are more of us with one foot out the door.


So leave. You want me to push you? Everything you are asking for isn't coming back. Move on


----------



## Joe3

compnurd said:


> So leave. You want me to push you? Everything you are asking for isn't coming back. Move on


Everything you're settling for is so old it should come with tubes. You move, it's 2020 AD.


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Missed that


Yeah, based on the info from Zatz (which is pretty much always right when it comes to all thing TiVo), it looks like TiVo Plus is gonna be something like the streaming channels offered by Xumo TV or Pluto TV, but integrated into the regular OTA/cable channel guide rather than siloed away in a separate app. A lot like LG TVs do with their Channel Plus feature.


----------



## Dan203

Will they be able to record those channels? Or just watch them live?


----------



## NashGuy

Dan203 said:


> Will they be able to record those channels? Or just watch them live?


Good question. I've never seen any of those live streaming OTT channels allowing recording to a local hard drive. Or for that matter, I don't know if any of them even allow local trick play. But it's hard to imagine TiVo agreeing to incorporate them without at least the ability for trick play (e.g. pause at least up to 30 minutes, caching the streaming on the TiVo's hard drive). It would be really jarring for TiVo users to not have the feature for every channel that they can surf to by hitting the channel up/down button.

But I don't think either Xumo TV or Pluto TV's program guides showing anything beyond the next hour or two, so I'm less confident that such channels would allow TiVo users to set up recordings. We'll see...


----------



## tenthplanet

So the Edge looks like a Sony blu ray player without a display or drawer....UGLY BOX..Bolt haters your ugly box is here, enjoy hiding it in your TV cabinet.


----------



## TonyD79

sd2528 said:


> How can you? Even if you don't like the old guide and even if you don't like to transfer things on and off your TiVo, why do you not want other users to be able to do it if they want?


They can. They stay with TE3. Nobody is making anyone move unless they buy new equipment.


----------



## TonyD79

Joe3 said:


> Everything you're settling for is so old it should come with tubes. You move, it's 2020 AD.


Again. No one is forcing you to use TE4. Instead use something that came out when tubes were still around and claim you are ahead.

And it is 2019.

And you move on. Like understanding there are ways to share programs beyond copying them to your device. Try a plex server which supports watching your programs anywhere you are and on multiple devices. How quaint to need to put them on your TiVo.


----------



## sd2528

TonyD79 said:


> They can. They stay with TE3. Nobody is making anyone move unless they buy new equipment.


So if they put the option to have the old guide and the option to transfer you'd be against that? Even if you didn't use those options and you couldn't even tell they were there at all?

That makes no sense.


----------



## Diana Collins

SullyND said:


> We have three levels of VDI, all connect to the same terminal. Mine is the "mid level", we have one with more horsepower, and one with less for people who mostly use MS Office.
> 
> The beauty of the setup is I have the same machine/horsepower available to me at my desk, my neighbors desk, the conference room, on my smartphone, iPad, laptop, Chromebook, etc.


I have set up such systems. They are VERY complicated to build and configure. But, they save the company a lot of money, since VMs are generally used. As a result they buy big enterprise servers (HP specializes in these) that can support multiple workstations. This is a lot cheaper than buying equivalent hardware for each user (which for some percentage of time will be sitting idle). IOW, it is about efficiency and cost, not a "central server" environment. If the server hosting your session goes down, the VM just gets moved to a different server with only a few minutes down time. As noted, it also makes your "PC" follow you wherever you go.


----------



## MisterMidnight

I would love to upgrade my TE3 Bolt to the new Edge, as I've had issues here and there with my Bolt. But TE4 is a deal breaker. I checked out TE4 on my sons Bolt and absolutely hated it.


----------



## Joe3

sd2528 said:


> So if they put the option to have the old guide and the option to transfer you'd be against that? Even if you didn't use those options and you couldn't even tell they were there at all?
> 
> That makes no sense.


At some level it may make sense. If you think about what could be the motive here, what and who benefits the most from what to us seems like backward thinking. It may all start to make sense if you consider possible alternate motives and that people can freely misrepresent themselves for those personal motives. Then it may make sense since it's much harder for something not to make sense once all the facts are revealed.


----------



## JoeKustra

So, in other words, one person's "So Cool!" is another person's "Sucks S***!". Works for me.


----------



## foghorn2

JoeKustra said:


> So, in other words, one person's "So Cool!" is another person's "Sucks S***!". Works for me.


----------



## HenryPolk87

TiVo Plus and it launches in October for free to the 22 million households worldwide that still own TiVo products. TiVo will make recommendations to customers on what to watch across the services they subscribe to. It will look similar to the way that the Apple TV app surfaces shows you can watch.

Early next year, the company will release a dongle that costs about $50 - pricey for similar products but far cheaper than its set-top boxes, which can cost upwards of $300. For now, the device is built to run on Google's Android TV, according to Shull. The dongle can be plugged into the back of a TV and will load up TiVo's service for broadband customers and also use AI to make recommendations, similar to TiVo Plus, but as a hardware solution.

TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. That's a pretty slim offering to start with more to be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as Netflix (NFLX), Hulu, Amazon (AMZN) Prime, NBC, SlingTV, YouTube and TikTok.


----------



## PSU_Sudzi

Full link for reference (apologies if already posted somewherE else already).

TiVo, the digital video recorder from the 2000s, wants to make a comeback - CNN


----------



## Mikeguy

CNN via HenryPolk87 said:


> "*Early next year*, the company will release a dongle that costs about $50 - pricey for similar products but far cheaper than its set-top boxes, which can cost upwards of $300. For now, the device is built to run on Google's Android TV, according to Shull. The dongle can be plugged into the back of a TV and will load up TiVo's service for broadband customers and also use AI to make recommendations, similar to TiVo Plus, but as a hardware solution."


Part of the good news being: there are plans for TiVo for 2020, and it will be here.  Now if the danged TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter just would issue. 


> "TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. That's a pretty slim offering to start with more to be announced in October. *Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as Netflix (NFLX), Hulu, Amazon (AMZN) Prime, NBC, SlingTV, YouTube and TikTok.*"


Ah, the little guppies.


----------



## tarheelblue32

HenryPolk87 said:


> TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. That's a pretty slim offering to start with more to be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as Netflix (NFLX), Hulu, Amazon (AMZN) Prime, NBC, SlingTV, YouTube and TikTok.


Well if they don't get TikTok on board it's completely worthless.


----------



## pfiagra

Mikeguy said:


> Now if the danged TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter just would issue.


I'm more interested in seeing the apps for Roku, FireTV, and Apple TV get released.


----------



## Mikeguy

pfiagra said:


> I'm more interested in seeing the apps for Roku, FireTV, and Apple TV get released.


That, too.


----------



## Joe3

PSU_Sudzi said:


> Full link for reference (apologies if already posted somewherE else already).
> 
> TiVo, the digital video recorder from the 2000s, wants to make a comeback - CNN


What am I not getting here. According to this article, TiVo Plus is offering content that is less than what you see on TiVo app Vewd. I think this CEO from the Weather Channel gets excited easily. Perhaps, something he carried over from being so close to watching the weather at his old job.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Interesting. That's a lot of news. At least Shull recognizes their stagnation.

I want more apps but a separate device defeats half the purpose unless it's capable of keeping the DVR experience seamless (no noticeable compression, skipmode intact, etc). But that's not likely. I guess it's not for my use case. Still, nice to see them expanding retail.


----------



## Mikeguy

Joe3 said:


> What am I not getting here. According to this article, TiVo Plus is offering content that is less than what you see on TiVo app Vewd. I think this CEO from the Weather Channel gets excited easily. Perhaps, something he carried over from being so close to watching the weather at his old job.


Except that, "there are discussions" with Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Prime, NBC, etc. Now, whether they result in anything is yet to be seen.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Article was updated and now says it'll launch with those services.

"TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, YouTube, content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. More will be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as NBC, SlingTV and TikTok."

So... I guess Plus is also limited by the apps available for its given platform. Apps like NBC, SlingTV, Tiktok (barf) are more likely to be available on the dongle than the DVRs.

List of Xumo channels for smart TVs:

XUMO » Channel Lineup for XUMO on Smart TVs & Roku


----------



## Mikeguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> *Article was updated and now says it'll launch with those services.*
> 
> "TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, YouTube, content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. More will be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as NBC, SlingTV and TikTok."
> 
> So... I guess Plus is also limited by the apps available for its given platform. Apps like NBC, SlingTV, Tiktok (barf) are more likely to be available on the dongle than the DVRs.
> 
> List of Xumo channels for smart TVs:
> 
> XUMO » Channel Lineup for XUMO on Smart TVs & Roku


And so, either the article originally was incorrect, or TiVo had a good morning of negotiations.


----------



## Mikeguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> List of Xumo channels for smart TVs:
> 
> XUMO » Channel Lineup for XUMO on Smart TVs & Roku


There are some interesting channels there. Although the NBC "Today" channel listing probably should be updated to not show Matt Lauer.


----------



## janitor53

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Article was updated and now says it'll launch with those services.
> 
> "TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, YouTube, content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. More will be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as NBC, SlingTV and TikTok."
> 
> So... I guess Plus is also limited by the apps available for its given platform. Apps like NBC, SlingTV, Tiktok (barf) are more likely to be available on the dongle than the DVRs.
> 
> List of Xumo channels for smart TVs:
> 
> XUMO » Channel Lineup for XUMO on Smart TVs & Roku


hmmm...does that mean YoutubeTV or just the youtube website?


----------



## pfiagra

In case you missed it, this TiVo user has an Edge:

Great TiVo Customer Service


----------



## Mikeguy

DigitalDawn said:


> I asked that and they said no. As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.


Was it your impression that this was limited to the Bolt boxes, or would this change also apply to the Roamio boxes as well?


----------



## DigitalDawn

Good question. However, I don't know.


----------



## krkaufman

DigitalDawn said:


> As a matter of fact, they said that an upcoming build (don't know when) would stop Bolts from downgrading to TE3.





Mikeguy said:


> Was it your impression that this was limited to the Bolt boxes, or would this change also apply to the Roamio boxes as well?





DigitalDawn said:


> Good question. However, I don't know.


Per recent clarification from @TiVo_Ted, the answer is "neither Roamios or eligible BOLTs (i.e. excluding the BOLT OTA) will be blocked from rollback to TE3, per current TiVo planning." (link)


----------



## jaselzer

So,................when is this Tivo Edge suppose to release? Something so weird about Tivo and their complete dysfunction when it comes to their ability to rationalize their marketing and product releases. It is sort of weird.


----------



## Mikeguy

Presumably, soon--one forum member already received an Edge box, as a warranty replacement for a Bolt box. Great TiVo Customer Service


----------



## BillyClyde

NashGuy said:


> Good question. I've never seen any of those live streaming OTT channels allowing recording to a local hard drive. Or for that matter, I don't know if any of them even allow local trick play........


The Channels DVR app using TVE as your tuner does this.


----------



## wmcbrine

BillyClyde said:


> The Channels DVR app using TVE as your tuner does this.


Sort of -- it records from the TV Everywhere site for each channel, rather than from the OTT service, which is just used for authorization (cable and satellite can also be used for auth). Not every channel is available, and the quality varies.


----------



## BillyClyde

wmcbrine said:


> Sort of -- it records from the TV Everywhere site for each channel, rather than from the OTT service, which is just used for authorization (cable and satellite can also be used for auth). Not every channel is available, and the quality varies.


What's the difference? TVE is still OTT, and it's the same stream that's being accessed to aggregate them all together via those OTT services such as PS Vue, SlingTV, etc. if I'm not mistaken.

The quality has been great, even better than the QAM cable tuner equivalent on pretty much all occasions.


----------



## wmcbrine

BillyClyde said:


> What's the difference? TVE is still OTT, and it's the same stream that's being accessed to aggregate then all together via those OTT services such as PS Vue, SlingTV, etc. if I'm not mistaken.


You're mistaken. PQ on a service like YouTubeTV can be substantially better than the same channel via its TV Everywhere stream. (I'm not saying it's always that way; again, it's highly variable.) The reverse is also possible, although I haven't seen that with YTTV so far.



> _The quality has been great, even better than the QAM cable tuner equivalent on pretty much all occasions._


That's great, but definitely not my experience. I will say, it's not hard to beat the QAM PQ of a service like Comcast, which maxes out at 720p and offers many channels only in 480i. Nevertheless, some of the TVE channels actually failed to rise to that baseline, IME.


----------



## BillyClyde

wmcbrine said:


> You're mistaken. PQ on a service like YouTubeTV can be substantially better than the same channel via its TV Everywhere stream. (I'm not saying it's always that way; again, it's highly variable.) The reverse is also possible, although I haven't seen that with YTTV so far.
> 
> That's great, but definitely not my experience. I will say, it's not hard to beat the QAM PQ of a service like Comcast, which maxes out at 720p and offers many channels only in 480i. Nevertheless, some of the TVE channels actually failed to rise to that baseline, IME.


I'm not mistaken in my case. I have PSVue, Spectrum and just recently cancelled DirecTV, all of which I have been able to compare with Channels DVR with TVE on AppleTV. I stand by my assessment.

Of course I agree your experience could be different.


----------



## wmcbrine

BillyClyde said:


> I'm not mistaken in my case.


Not about PQ -- you're mistaken in saying "it's the same stream that's being accessed to aggregate then all together via those OTT services". It's not. The OTT services have different sources for the channels than what the TVE sites provide (typically, I think, much higher-quality sources), which they then reencode (possibly downscaling) to meet their own needs.

Of course, it's the same source at _some_ point -- way upstream -- but the TVE and OTT versions of the channel that we can access were encoded separately.


----------



## seaninde

Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. So does each DVR need a monthly fee? I already have a plan with my Bolt. When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners, even those rest of website says 6. Who knows which is right. Guess I will find out. for 399.00 it better have 6 tuners!


----------



## schatham

seaninde said:


> Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. So does each DVR need a monthly fee? I already have a plan with my Bolt. When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners, even those rest of website says 6. Who knows which is right. Guess I will find out. for 399.00 it better have 6 tuners!


It's possible they will sell both a 4 tuner and 6 tuner cable model, with the six tuner not for sale yet.

After you get the Edge up and running, transfer shows from the Bolt, then cancel the Bolt and replace it with a Mini.


----------



## HenryPolk87

It's possible they will sell both a 4 tuner and 6 tuner cable model, with the six tuner not for sale yet.

The 6 tuner model is for sale. There is no 4 tuner cable model. Only a 6 tuner.


----------



## HenryPolk87

OTA model for antenna only has 4 tuners. Needs a TiVo subscription. Does not work with cable Tv.


----------



## HenryPolk87

Once again they leave Frontier cable card hotline number out.


----------



## schatham

HenryPolk87 said:


> It's possible they will sell both a 4 tuner and 6 tuner cable model, with the six tuner not for sale yet.
> When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners,
> The 6 tuner model is for sale. There is no 4 tuner cable model. Only a 6 tuner.


I was going by this fact on the order page, as stated by seaninde, just guessing why they stated 4 tuner cable model.

"When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners,"


----------



## schatham

seaninde said:


> Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. So does each DVR need a monthly fee? I already have a plan with my Bolt. When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners, even those rest of website says 6. Who knows which is right. Guess I will find out. for 399.00 it better have 6 tuners!


Go to Tivo orders page and see what your order states.


----------



## compuguy

HenryPolk87 said:


> OTA model for antenna only has 4 tuners. Needs a TiVo subscription. Does not work with cable Tv.


Its is moderately disappointing that the 4 tuner version doesn't support cable as well....


----------



## ohboy710

Anybody been able to find a comparison between the Bolt and Edge to see if it's worth upgrading?


----------



## jwort93

Is this model fan-less? I don't see any vent openings on the back of it, shown on the CNET article.


----------



## krkaufman

ohboy710 said:


> Anybody been able to find a comparison between the Bolt and Edge to see if it's worth upgrading?


Haven't seen one, yet. Faster? Dolby Atmos(?)? No combo OTA/cable model. Seemingly zero change to the list of supported streaming apps. Similar to BOLTs, the OTA-only model lacks MoCA and has its own service pricing.


----------



## Mikeguy

For those who like the TiVo Live Guide/Suggestions/PC -> TiVo box transfers and the ability to do inter-box transfers from the TiVo box itself (rather than at TiVo Online), note that the Edge box does not allow for use of the TE3 user interface.


----------



## Joe3

seaninde said:


> Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. !


what did they do, threaten to put a gun to your head if you didn't take the monthly billing?


----------



## bobfrank

seaninde said:


> Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. So does each DVR need a monthly fee? I already have a plan with my Bolt. When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners, even those rest of website says 6. Who knows which is right. Guess I will find out. for 399.00 it better have 6 tuners!


Each separate Tivo unit needs its own service plan, either monthly, annual or lifetime (now known as All-In). The lifetime plan is for the life of the unit, not your lifetime.

Tivo has always been this way.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

jwort93 said:


> Is this model fan-less? I don't see any vent openings on the back of it, shown on the CNET article.


We switched over from a fan to a blower. The inlet is below the unit, and the exhaust vents are on the lower right side below the ledge. Air flow is dramatically improved vs. BOLT.


----------



## gcw07

@TiVo_Ted Can you tell us why the cable version of service is over double the cost of the OTA version. It is the same service, either way, what makes it cost so much more?


----------



## TiVo_Ted

ohboy710 said:


> Anybody been able to find a comparison between the Bolt and Edge to see if it's worth upgrading?


Main differences are faster CPU (BCM 7278), more RAM (4GB vs 3GB on BOLT), USB 3.0, Dolby Vision. Also, we will be able to support Dolby AC4 audio natively, where on BOLT we would have to do this decode on the CPU.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

gcw07 said:


> @TiVo_Ted Can you tell us why the cable version of service is over double the cost of the OTA version. It is the same service, either way, what makes it cost so much more?


Well, it's kind of the other way around. TiVo service has been 15/150/550 for years, and we wanted to lower the price for OTA to better align with our competitors. The economics of TiVo service on cable vs. renting a box from your cable company pencil out pretty quickly. That comparison doesn't hold in the OTA space. So, by limiting the service to OTA only, we were able to lower our monthly fees to 7/70/250.


----------



## jwort93

TiVo_Ted said:


> We switched over from a fan to a blower. The inlet is below the unit, and the exhaust vents are on the lower right side below the ledge. Air flow is dramatically improved vs. BOLT.


That's good to know. How does it compare noise wise? Is the blower quieter/louder?


----------



## TiVo_Ted

seaninde said:


> Ordered one today (399.00 for cable model), be here Friday so we will see how this new unit stacks up. They made me buy a monthly plan with it during ordering. So does each DVR need a monthly fee? I already have a plan with my Bolt. When you order it at top of page its says 4 tuners, even those rest of website says 6. Who knows which is right. Guess I will find out. for 399.00 it better have 6 tuners!


Yes, the EDGE for Cable model is 6 tuners with 2TB of storage. We are just starting to take orders today, but I don't believe units will ship out until Friday or possibly even Monday. We're still setting up the new ordering and supply chain and ran into a few problems with our new currency and tax system we installed to support direct sales into Canada in $CDN.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

jwort93 said:


> That's good to know. How does it compare noise wise? Is the blower quieter/louder?


I haven't seen the final numbers, but it should be much quieter than BOLT.


----------



## longrider

Will there be any options to transfer service from an All In Bolt to an Edge?


----------



## techrat

longrider said:


> Will there be any options to transfer service from an All In Bolt to an Edge?


seconded. i have a roamio with lifetime that forgot how to do hdmi or composite output, but still works great as a headless server for a mini. if i can get an edge and move my lifetime service over to it, i'd hit the "buy it now" button so hard the USGS would send out an alert...


----------



## wallstreet12345

4K?


----------



## spiderpumpkin

I see two USB ports on the back of the Edge. I hope the new Edge will allow any brand external drive expansion through one or both of those ports.


----------



## tarheelblue32

spiderpumpkin said:


> I see two USB ports on the back of the Edge. I hope the new Edge will allow any brand external drive expansion through one or both of those ports.


It won't. TiVo has never allowed external storage except for the one external drive they used to sell directly.


----------



## spiderpumpkin

tarheelblue32 said:


> It won't. TiVo has never allowed external storage except for the one external drive they used to sell directly.


That's really too bad. If they had allowed external drive expansion I would buy the Edge immediately.

It's really too bad they didn't make the new Edge a Tivo running Android TV. It would be so cool if it was like an NVIDIA Shield TV in that it would run all Android TV apps and allow an external drive.


----------



## ej42137

tarheelblue32 said:


> It won't. TiVo has never allowed external storage except for the one external drive they used to sell directly.


*Series 3*, where the support was introduced, did not have the restriction to particular models of external drives. Otherwise you are correct, the very next model, the *Series 3 HD* had a very short white list of accepted external drives.

On the other hand, what is the point of USB 3.0 on the Edge if an external disk is not going to be connected to it? The only things I know to attach to the TiVo's USB ports are Tuning Adapters, keyboards, USB cooling fans and USB powered digital clocks; none of these benefit from USB 3.0.


----------



## tarheelblue32

ej42137 said:


> *Series 3*, where the support was introduced, did not have the restriction to particular models of external drives. Otherwise you are correct, the very next model, the *Series 3 HD* had a very short white list of accepted external drives.
> 
> On the other hand, what is the point of USB 3.0 on the Edge if an external disk is not going to be connected to it? The only things I know to attach to the TiVo's USB ports are Tuning Adapters, keyboards, USB cooling fans and USB powered digital clocks; none of these benefit from USB 3.0.


I assume because USB 3.0 hardware is now pretty standard and probably as cheap to include as USB 2.0 hardware would have been, so why not?


----------



## snerd

ej42137 said:


> On the other hand, what is the point of USB 3.0 on the Edge if an external disk is not going to be connected to it? The only things I know to attach to the TiVo's USB ports are Tuning Adapters, keyboards, USB cooling fans and USB powered digital clocks; none of these benefit from USB 3.0.


I for one am glad they put USB 3.0 on the Edge, if only so that TCF doesn't have to suffer through the inevitable gripes about "only USB 2, that's the last straw!"


----------



## OrangeTurtle

@TiVo_Ted

Thank you for the info you have shared on the new edge!

Could you or anyone else that can shed some light, would love to know a couple of things.

Will TiVo add apps like "Watch TV" (The AT&T app, formerly Direct TV Now)? This is one I need my apple TV to use, would like to ditch that device and just use the TiVo!

Also, I loved my original roamio basic (both cable/OTA option) and the basic BOLT offered the same. Any chance the Edge will be offered in a similar model? I sometimes flip back and fourth between cable and antenna.


----------



## compnurd

OrangeTurtle said:


> TiVo_Ted
> 
> Thank you for the info you have shared on the new edge!
> 
> Could you or anyone else that can shed some light, would love to know a couple of things.
> 
> Will TiVo add apps like "Watch TV" (The AT&T app, formerly Direct TV Now)? This is one I need my apple TV to use, would like to ditch that device and just use the TiVo!
> 
> Also, I loved my original roamio basic (both cable/OTA option) and the basic BOLT offered the same. Any chance the Edge will be offered in a similar model? I sometimes flip back and fourth between cable and antenna.


Watch TV was not formerly Directv now. ATT TV Now is the former Directv Now. And it is up to the app companies to write the apps for the Tivo. Not the other way


----------



## OrangeTurtle

Sorry, I have both apps AT&T TV Now and Watch TV- not sure why AT&T makes so many variations- didn't intend to cause confusion with that. 

OK, app companies write the apps for TiVo, how does TiVo entice them to write them?


----------



## gary.buhrmaster

spiderpumpkin said:


> It's really too bad they didn't make the new Edge a Tivo running Android TV. It would be so cool if it was like an NVIDIA Shield TV in that it would run all Android TV apps and allow an external drive.


As mentioned elsewhere, Android TV devices cannot replace the consumer Android TV experience with a TiVo one except for "operator tier" MSO only devices. TiVo can still offer a Android TV app which is (more or less) a streaming mini as an app, which was previously suggested as going to be available RSN (along with apps for a set of other platforms), but it would leave Android TV itself as the center of the experience.


----------



## HenryPolk87

OrangeTurtle said:


> Sorry, I have both apps AT&T TV Now and Watch TV- not sure why AT&T makes so many variations- didn't intend to cause confusion with that.
> 
> OK, app companies write the apps for TiVo, how does TiVo entice them to write them?


Well they need market share. Lol. Android , Apple iOS, and windows App Store have more apps, ( not so much devices for this concern)then Tivo ancient app system.


----------



## Robert Simandl

And just as the Edge is about to be released... my Bolt dies with the four flashing lights.

I don't suppose TiVo will let me buy an Edge and transfer my Bolt's "All In" service to it, will they?


----------



## Robert Simandl

longrider said:


> Will there be any options to transfer service from an All In Bolt to an Edge?


I just asked the same question mere minutes ago (hadn't seen yours yet) because my Bolt died with the four flashing lights last week.


----------



## TostitoBandito

@TiVo_Ted - Any plans to support Dolby Vision on the Bolt? I'm not sure why you haven't been able to, but it's frustrating and prevents Netflix/Amazon on my Bolt from being viable for me in my 4K setup (I use my TV or xbox instead, frustratingly). I'm not planning on buying an Edge just for this feature, so I'm hoping maybe an OS update for the Bolt will provide Dolby Vision support for Netflix/Amazon/Vudu?


----------



## compnurd

TostitoBandito said:


> @TiVo_Ted - Any plans to support Dolby Vision on the Bolt? I'm not sure why you haven't been able to, but it's frustrating and prevents Netflix/Amazon on my Bolt from being viable for me in my 4K setup (I use my TV or xbox instead, frustratingly). I'm not planning on buying an Edge just for this feature, so I'm hoping maybe an OS update for the Bolt will provide Dolby Vision support for Netflix/Amazon/Vudu?


Hardware has to be licensed and certified for Dolby Vison. It isn't free
A lot of TV companies passed on this early on even though the hardware was good for it. Easier to push the new one


----------



## slowbiscuit

gcw07 said:


> @TiVo_Ted Can you tell us why the cable version of service is over double the cost of the OTA version. It is the same service, either way, what makes it cost so much more?


Competition on OTA (lots) vs. cable (none, basically).

Yeah, it's dumb for anyone looking at it from a service provided viewpoint.


----------



## krkaufman

ej42137 said:


> On the other hand, what is the point of USB 3.0 on the Edge if an external disk is not going to be connected to it?


ATSC 3.0 tuner connection?


----------



## ej42137

krkaufman said:


> ATSC 3.0 tuner connection?


That I would believe. TiVo management is probably grasping at straws, no matter how unlikely.


----------



## mattyro7878

Two things- someone mentioned a Bolt with antenna and cable? Was that the first generation and it was antenna OR cable I believe. Second- I admit to being a Tivo fanboy and I hate to admit that the Edge is not the box I was hoping for. I already own a Bolt and my Samsung 4k does not do DolbyVision. I would not have bought an Edge even if it did. I do understand they need a new product every 3 years and I'm glad to see it. I still prefer a Roamio pro/plus at least until 4k (1080p for that matter) is available everywhere.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

mattyro7878 said:


> Two things- someone mentioned a Bolt with antenna and cable? Was that the first generation and it was antenna OR cable I believe.


The first gen Bolt supported cable or antenna, but not both at the same time.

The second gen Bolt Plus supported only digital cable.

The third gen Bolt VOX came in three models. The four-tuner 500GB/1TB models supported digital cable or antenna, but not both; the six-tuner 3TB model supported digital cable only.



mattyro7878 said:


> I still prefer a Roamio pro/plus at least until 4k (1080p for that matter) is available everywhere.


The Roamio Pro is still king here too. Comcast offers us no 4K cable channels, and our streaming (4K and not) we do with a Fire TV Stick 4K.


----------



## ej42137

tarheelblue32 said:


> I assume because USB 3.0 hardware is now pretty standard and probably as cheap to include as USB 2.0 hardware would have been, so why not?


That might be true, I don't know for sure. But the most motherboards available today still have a majority of USB 2.0 ports over USB 3.x.


----------



## moyekj

FYI, I heard that TiVo To Go (transfers from TiVo-->Computer) which have been working up to this point in TE4 are now broken permanently on Edge platform. Guess the last functional remains of TiVo Desktop are now completely broken. Yet another reason for some not to update.


----------



## seaninde

Joe3 said:


> what did they do, threaten to put a gun to your head if you didn't take the monthly billing?


The website forces it. Otherwise you can't purchase it. ( I mean a plan, you can choose which you like Monthly, Yearly lifetime) I figured I could purchase the plan after I got it.


----------



## seaninde

moyekj said:


> FYI, I heard that TiVo To Go (transfers from TiVo-->Computer) which have been working up to this point in TE4 are now broken permanently on Edge platform. Guess the last functional remains of TiVo Desktop are now completely broken. Yet another reason for some not to update.


I never understood why anyone would watch TV on a PC? I paid a fortune for a 75 inch high end TV, why would I even watch on a PC? This is one of those features that is so trivial to me. Plus if you are watching that much TV that when you are on your PC you have it running, maybe you need to get out more, lol Just kidding.


----------



## seaninde

Robert Simandl said:


> And just as the Edge is about to be released... my Bolt dies with the four flashing lights.
> 
> I don't suppose TiVo will let me buy an Edge and transfer my Bolt's "All In" service to it, will they?


Exactly why I would never buy lifetime. You are gambling on the device lasting forever.


----------



## dianebrat

seaninde said:


> Exactly why I would never buy lifetime. You are gambling on the device lasting forever.


Four lifetime Tivo's in my house, 2 more with family, all of them have made their payoff dates for Lifetime including the 4 retired ones in the extended family.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Yep, resale value also made lifetime well worth it. 

At least, it did until they jacked it up to $550. That price coupled with the uncertain future of Cablecard and hmmm.

Just wait for the inevitable bundle sale where lifetime is something like $299.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

seaninde said:


> I never understood why anyone would watch TV on a PC? I paid a fortune for a 75 inch high end TV, why would I even watch on a PC? This is one of those features that is so trivial to me. Plus if you are watching that much TV that when you are on your PC you have it running, maybe you need to get out more, lol Just kidding.


tl;dr answer:

Younger folks prefer the small screen streaming experience. It works well for certain older folks too. I transfer programs to my PC for editing and then either serve them to TiVo from a PC or transfer them back.

Full answer:

As our kids neared college age, they stopped wanting to sit in front of a TV to watch anything unless they had a bunch of friends over for a special event like sports or an interactive Netflix adventure. Most Gen Y'ers and many Millennials want to stream to their laptops, tablets, gaming PCs, etc. while they multi-task. Our kids mostly do Netflix and YouTube, but Tivo Online is their web/app access to what's on the TiVo boxes. The cable companies understand this, which is why most of them have partnered with TV Everywhere to provide live TV through branded services like Xfinity Stream.

My wife's viewing habits come down somewhere in-between the kids and my big screen-centric habits.

As for the (much) older generation, Netflix and Xfinity Stream on a tablet offer the easiest way for my 91 year-old mother to watch her shows from her bed or recliner. I may set up a TiVo with TiVo Online for her too. The biggest challenge is teaching the caregivers to launch those while I'm not there.

Also, I have always transferred shows from TiVo to edit them with VideoReDo and other tools, then transfer them to computers and back to the TiVo boxes for watching. For example, our kids were in a bunch of big parades that were carried on the local news channel. Each year, I edited out clips of them in the parade, added some titles, and served them from a PC or transferred that back to TiVo. Like that.

(Edit: "Most Gen Y'ers and _many _Millennials...")​


----------



## seaninde

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, resale value also made lifetime well worth it.
> 
> At least, it did until they jacked it up to $550. That price coupled with the uncertain future of Cablecard and hmmm.
> 
> Just wait for the inevitable bundle sale where lifetime is something like $299.


That's great! but tech is moving so fast anymore I change stuff out every 2 years or so , so for me that's a waste of money.


----------



## compuguy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> tl;dr answer:
> 
> Younger folks prefer the small screen streaming experience. It works well for certain older folks too. I transfer programs to my PC for editing and then either serve them to TiVo from a PC or transfer them back.
> 
> Full answer:
> 
> As our kids neared college age, they stopped wanting to sit in front of a TV to watch anything unless they had a bunch of friends over for a special event like sports or an interactive Netflix adventure. Most Gen Y'ers and Millennials want to stream to their laptops, tablets, gaming PCs, etc. while they multi-task. Our kids mostly do Netflix and YouTube, but Tivo Online is their web/app access to what's on the TiVo boxes. The cable companies understand this, which is why most of them have partnered with TV Everywhere to provide live TV through branded services like Xfinity Stream.
> 
> My wife's viewing habits come down somewhere in-between the kids and my big screen-centric habits.
> 
> As for the (much) older generation, Netflix and Xfinity Stream on a tablet offer the easiest way for my 91 year-old mother to watch her shows from her bed or recliner. I may set up a TiVo with TiVo Online for her too. The biggest challenge is teaching the caregivers to launch those while I'm not there.
> 
> Also, I have always transferred shows from TiVo to edit them with VideoReDo and other tools, then transfer them to computers and back to the TiVo boxes for watching. For example, our kids were in a bunch of big parades that were carried on the local news channel. Each year, I edited out clips of them in the parade, added some titles, and served them from a PC or transferred that back to TiVo. Like that.


I guess I'm a weird Millennial then. I watch Youtube regularly, but still watch a chunk of tv on regular tv (especially when multitasking). Having the ability to transfer or stream (most) shows to a tablet or mobile device is a big reason bought into TiVo back in 2013. FiOS at the time didn't have *any* of those features....



Pokemon_Dad said:


> The first gen Bolt supported cable or antenna, but not both at the same time.
> 
> The second gen Bolt Plus supported only digital cable.
> 
> The third gen Bolt VOX came in three models. The four-tuner 500GB/1TB models supported digital cable or antenna, but not both; the six-tuner 3TB model supported digital cable only.
> 
> The Roamio Pro is still king here too. Comcast offers us no 4K cable channels, and our streaming (4K and not) we do with a Fire TV Stick 4K.


Honestly, this and the fact the Roamio Pro accepts 3.5" hard drives is why I bought a used Roamio Pro/Plus a couple of years ago off Ebay. Replaced the drive with an 8TB disk, and it (minus the TE4 lagginess) is great. Though I also got in on the Bolt transfer deal, because of the improvements the Bolt has over the Roamio base model (minus reliability; I have a AC infinity cooling fan device under it just in case).


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

compuguy said:


> I guess I'm a weird Millennial then. I watch Youtube regularly, but still watch a chunk of tv on regular tv (especially when multitasking). Having the ability to transfer or stream (most) shows to a tablet or mobile device is a big reason bought into TiVo back in 2013. FiOS at the time didn't have *any* of those features....


Guess I should have written "most Gen Y'ers and _many _Millennials" as there is a spectrum, and streaming skews younger. In fact, I know one pair of older Millennials that have a dish TV setup and no broadband. When they need to get their laptops on the Internet, they use Wi-Fi hotspots from their cell phones. So reaching them is easier via text than email ...which is also a Millennial/Gen Y thing as far as I can tell.



compuguy said:


> Honestly, this and the fact the Roamio Pro accepts 3.5" hard drives is why I bought a used Roamio Pro/Plus a couple of years ago off Ebay. Replaced the drive with an 8TB disk, and it (minus the TE4 lagginess) is great. Though I also got in on the Bolt transfer deal, because of the improvements the Bolt has over the Roamio base model (minus reliability; I have a AC infinity cooling fan device under it just in case).


Roamio all the way. I hate to sound like an old Boomer curmudgeon (Joneser, actually), but the Roamio line was the best TiVo ever produced, and it's been all downhill from there. The Bolt here as a buzzing board component and noisy fan, and I can't wait to take it offline after the current round of annual service ends.

Our Roamio Pro has All-In, and it will take over along with a Fire TV Stick 4K and such. I doubt the Edge streaming experience will be fully up-to-snuff, and then there's TE4 and pre-roll. I'm planning to run a test HomeRun and Channels DVR system in parallel.


----------



## compuguy

Pokemon_Dad said:


> Guess I should have written "most Gen Y'ers and _many _Millennials" as there is a spectrum, and streaming skews younger. In fact, I know one pair of older Millennials that have a dish TV setup and no broadband. When they need to get their laptops on the Internet, they use Wi-Fi hotspots from their cell phones. So reaching them is easier via text than email ...which is also a Millennial/Gen Y thing as far as I can tell.
> 
> Roamio all the way. I hate to sound like an old Boomer curmudgeon (Joneser, actually), but the Roamio line was the best TiVo ever produced, and it's been all downhill from there. The Bolt here as a buzzing board component and noisy fan, and I can't wait to take it offline after the current round of annual service ends.
> 
> Our Roamio Pro has All-In, and it will take over along with a Fire TV Stick 4K and such. I doubt the Edge streaming experience will be fully up-to-snuff, and then there's TE4 and pre-roll. I'm planning to run a test HomeRun and Channels DVR system in parallel.


To be honest, I'm on the older end of the Millennial spectrum. I agree with you on the Roamio Pro/Plus. My bolt has (compared to the Roamio models) a noisier fan (in a quiet room, you can notice it).


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Went back and looked at Premiere, Roamio and Bolt launch threads. The moods are interesting.

A lot of anger at Premiere and the lack of any real, new features. (sounds familiar.)

Roamio had excitement and relief from the slow Premiere and the new 6 tuners and RF remote, wifi, etc. Happy days. Tivo even made a celebratory video patting themselves on the back.

Bolt was like, yeah, ok, cool I guess. Too soon and looks fugly but faster apps.

I think Edge is a yawn so far? The lack of new threads is what's most telling. No "just ordered! Arriving Friday!" type threads. I think it would be more like the Premiere, but nobody's got the fire to be angry anymore, just disappointed or disinterested altogether.


----------



## tapokata

I think the Edge is an incremental change when a more substantial improvement would have been well received and celebrated. While TiVo is between a rock and a harder place with the app library, the lack of inclusion of any of the popular OTT apps used by cord cutters is unfortunate. Even if only the OTA versions offered those apps, keeping their cable co agreements happy, that would have been a bit of progress to generate some excitement.

TiVo marketed the Bolt not as a DVR, but as the center of the viewing experience. But every time the viewer has to change inputs for different apps or better app enabled features, the Tivo device moves to the periphery. In the OTA world, this invites the customer to explore Tablo, Recast, Silicon Dust, or other solutions for DVR needs. In the same vein, as the cable company equipment improves, TiVo risks becoming a lesser consideration in a growing field of choices.


----------



## tarheelblue32

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Went back and looked at Premiere, Roamio and Bolt launch threads. The moods are interesting.
> 
> A lot of anger at Premiere and the lack of any real, new features. (sounds familiar.)
> 
> Roamio had excitement and relief from the slow Premiere and the new 6 tuners and RF remote, wifi, etc. Happy days. Tivo even made a celebratory video patting themselves on the back.
> 
> Bolt was like, yeah, ok, cool I guess. Too soon and looks fugly but faster apps.
> 
> I think Edge is a yawn so far? The lack of new threads is what's most telling. No "just ordered! Arriving Friday!" type threads. I think it would be more like the Premiere, but nobody's got the fire to be angry anymore, just disappointed or disinterested altogether.


I think the Roamio Pro was the last time TiVo really impressed me. 6 tuners and 3TB of hard drive space, along with a processor that was fast enough (unlike the Premiere), and built-in streaming chip that could handle 4 simultaneous streams. Fast forward two generations and the Edge has a smaller hard drive, the same number of tuners, and (I think) can only handle 2 simultaneous streams (may be wrong about that, but I know the Bolt could only handle 2). TiVo essentially maxed out the hardware with the Roamio Pro (with the exception of the processor speeds which obviously keep improving over time).


----------



## krkaufman

seaninde said:


> Exactly why I would never buy lifetime. You are gambling on the device lasting forever.





seaninde said:


> That's great! but tech is moving so fast anymore I change stuff out every 2 years or so , so for me that's a waste of money.


There's a bit of wiggle room between 2 years and forever, though I think our ROI might have been close to 2 years owing to the number of TV locations and Comcast's additonal outlet fee. (Though, honestly, we'd have had to simply settle for fewer screens, less functionality had we gone w/ the Comcast setup.)


----------



## compuguy

tarheelblue32 said:


> I think the Roamio Pro was the last time TiVo really impressed me. 6 tuners and 3TB of hard drive space, along with a processor that was fast enough (unlike the Premiere), and built in streaming chip that could handle 4 simultaneous streams. Fast forward two generations and the Edge has a smaller hard drive, the same number of tuners, and (I think) can only handle 2 simultaneous streams (may be wrong about that, but I know the Bolt could only handle 2). TiVo essentially maxed out the hardware with the Roamio (with the exception of the processor speeds which obviously keep improving).


I honestly didn't know the Bolt could only handle 2 streams....


----------



## bobfrank

seaninde said:


> Exactly why I would never buy lifetime. You are gambling on the device lasting forever.


I have owned at least one of every Tivo model (except the Premiere) from the Series 1 through the Bolt. Every one of them has lifetime. It has been cheaper for me to buy the lifetime than pay monthly or annually on every one of them. The Bolt is an exception because I haven't owned it long enough, but it won't be long before that it starts saving me money.


----------



## Joe3

Speaking of Rovi/TiVo's processor speeds, which obviously keep improving. However, not for the product's customer. No, not this time or maybe not any time going forward. If the stats on the Edge processor is as reported, it's just enough of an improvement to handle the pre-roll Ads.

You see, when Rovi took over Tivo they thought they were completely whole
and yet they will never fully be complete.


----------



## Mikeguy

seaninde said:


> I never understood why anyone would watch TV on a PC? I paid a fortune for a 75 inch high end TV, why would I even watch on a PC? This is one of those features that is so trivial to me. Plus if you are watching that much TV that when you are on your PC you have it running, maybe you need to get out more, lol Just kidding.


I'm into watching TV on a, well, TV as well, although even with this preferred use, I can see exceptions: on a tablet or PC/laptop in a home office or other room not set up with a television, or even outside on the porch/deck.


----------



## djones18

With 48 pages here and more threads on the Edge, we need a new Forum Section dedicated to the TiVo Edge.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Robert Simandl said:


> And just as the Edge is about to be released... my Bolt dies with the four flashing lights.
> 
> I don't suppose TiVo will let me buy an Edge and transfer my Bolt's "All In" service to it, will they?


If you call customer support, I think we have some good deals to replace your hard drive. We periodically offer All-In service transfers on promotion, but don't have anything coming up for that.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

moyekj said:


> FYI, I heard that TiVo To Go (transfers from TiVo-->Computer) which have been working up to this point in TE4 are now broken permanently on Edge platform. Guess the last functional remains of TiVo Desktop are now completely broken. Yet another reason for some not to update.


That's news to me. Let me look into it.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

TostitoBandito said:


> @TiVo_Ted - Any plans to support Dolby Vision on the Bolt? I'm not sure why you haven't been able to, but it's frustrating and prevents Netflix/Amazon on my Bolt from being viable for me in my 4K setup (I use my TV or xbox instead, frustratingly). I'm not planning on buying an Edge just for this feature, so I'm hoping maybe an OS update for the Bolt will provide Dolby Vision support for Netflix/Amazon/Vudu?


Unfortunately, the underlying Broadcom silicon in BOLT does not support Dolby Vision. BOLT can do 4K and HDR10, which is very close to Dolby Vision. If you really need DV on TiVo, you'll need EDGE.


----------



## TiVo_Ted

compuguy said:


> I honestly didn't know the Bolt could only handle 2 streams....


They are both limited to 2 transcoded streams. With MINI, you can support up to 4 streams because they aren't transcoded.


----------



## alarson83

The pricing just seems absurd to me.

Like.. a cheap $100 box with these kind of subscription rates (particularly the 1 year commitment) might make sense. A $400 box with minimal (or no) subscription rates might make sense as well. There's little in this box that does much better on the dvr side than a roamio, other than being a bit faster, and everything on the non-dvr side can be accomplished with a $50 roku.

Seeing as you can accomplish everything non-dvr on a $50 roku, lets credit that in to the $950 price even though lets be honest most of us probably own a roku or similar device already (and many likely own things like harmony remotes so switching between dvr and roku is trivial). So TiVo is basically contending that in the current market a dvr thats a little bit faster is worth spending $900. That makes no damn sense.

I'll stick with my roamio.


----------



## krkaufman

TiVo_Ted said:


> They are both limited to 2 transcoded streams. With MINI, you can support up to 4 streams because they aren't transcoded.


You'll want to check with engineering on this. The Roamio and later DVRs can surely support more than 4 simultaneous "whole home" streams to networked Minis.

As for mobile streaming, @Dan203's FAQ is a good reference. See: TiVo Stream FAQ


----------



## Mikeguy

alarson83 said:


> The pricing just seems absurd to me.
> 
> Like.. a cheap $100 box with these kind of subscription rates (particularly the 1 year commitment) might make sense. A $400 box with minimal (or no) subscription rates might make sense as well. There's little in this box that does much better on the dvr side than a roamio, other than being a bit faster, and everything on the non-dvr side can be accomplished with a $50 roku.
> 
> Seeing as you can accomplish everything non-dvr on a $50 roku, lets credit that in to the $950 price even though lets be honest most of us probably own a roku or similar device already (and many likely own things like harmony remotes so switching between dvr and roku is trivial). So TiVo is basically contending that in the current market a dvr thats a little bit faster is worth spending $900. That makes no damn sense.
> 
> I'll stick with my roamio.


I see it as a $200 difference, on the OTA side: original retail price of the Roamio OTA box (Lifetime included): $400; original retail price of the Edge OTA box (with Lifetime): $600.


----------



## exdishguy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Went back and looked at Premiere, Roamio and Bolt launch threads. The moods are interesting.
> 
> A lot of anger at Premiere and the lack of any real, new features. (sounds familiar.)
> 
> Roamio had excitement and relief from the slow Premiere and the new 6 tuners and RF remote, wifi, etc. Happy days. Tivo even made a celebratory video patting themselves on the back.
> 
> Bolt was like, yeah, ok, cool I guess. Too soon and looks fugly but faster apps.
> 
> I think Edge is a yawn so far? The lack of new threads is what's most telling. No "just ordered! Arriving Friday!" type threads. I think it would be more like the Premiere, but nobody's got the fire to be angry anymore, just disappointed or disinterested altogether.


I still think Roamio was their best box ever. Bolt is fine once I tossed a cap on the fan leads but it is just very cheap feeling and one of the worst industrial designs in CE history to me personally.

The whole prohibiting TE3 backrev on Edge is silly to me. Especially now that opting out of pre-roll ads is an option. They are still using Broadcom and the PHYs are likely the same/similar so I cannot believe Arris couldn't easily port drivers to this new platform. I get that TE3 would still be maintenance frozen but still...I'm betting they'd get a bunch of Tivo-lifers to sink $1k into the box for yet another LT subscription.


----------



## tenthplanet

The Bolt was an attempt to break away from an ugly black box, something that could sit on shelf among books maybe a vase. But men love ugly black box.


----------



## tenthplanet

exdishguy said:


> I still think Roamio was their best box ever. Bolt is fine once I tossed a cap on the fan leads but it is just very cheap feeling and one of the worst industrial designs in CE history to me personally.
> 
> The whole prohibiting TE3 backrev on Edge is silly to me. Especially now that opting out of pre-roll ads is an option. They are still using Broadcom and the PHYs are likely the same/similar so I cannot believe Arris couldn't easily port drivers to this new platform. I get that TE3 would still be maintenance frozen but still...I'm betting they'd get a bunch of Tivo-lifers to sink $1k into the box for yet another LT subscription.


Maybe in 2007. It's been a rough money decade for a lot of people, things cost a lot more then they used to. A lifetime subscription is a lot of up front money, that more and more people just can't swing anymore.


----------



## tenthplanet

djones18 said:


> With 48 pages here and more threads on the Edge, we need a new Forum Section dedicated to the TiVo Edge.


Lets do something radical..how about an Edge owners thread.


----------



## Mikeguy

tenthplanet said:


> Lets do something radical..how about an Edge owners thread.


You're there!


----------



## tenthplanet

Mikeguy said:


> You're there!


So so far we have one real owner after 49 pages


----------



## DigitalDawn

TiVo_Ted said:


> They are both limited to 2 transcoded streams. With MINI, you can support up to 4 streams because they aren't transcoded.


I always thought that TiVos could handle up to 7 or more simultaneous streams to Mini's, or was that just a Roamio capability?


----------



## krkaufman

DigitalDawn said:


> I always thought that TiVos could handle up to 7 or more simultaneous streams to Mini's, or was that just a Roamio capability?


Yeah, I'm wondering if Ted didn't just mix-up the Roamio Plus/Pro & Stream mobile streaming limit, which *is* 4.


----------



## compuguy

tenthplanet said:


> The Bolt was an attempt to break away from an ugly black box, something that could sit on shelf among books maybe a vase. But men love ugly black box.


Compared to a base/basic model Roamio, the Bolt is *tiny* in comparison. We need someone to do a size comparison between a Roamio, Bolt, and the new Edge box....


----------



## tarheelblue32

compuguy said:


> Compared to a base/basic model Roamio, the Bolt is *tiny* in comparison. We need someone to do a size comparison between a Roamio, Bolt, and the new Edge box....


Honestly, I kind of like that my Roamio Pro is large and in charge.


----------



## Ilovemyteevo

TiVo_Ted said:


> Main differences are faster CPU (BCM 7278), more RAM (4GB vs 3GB on BOLT), USB 3.0, Dolby Vision. Also, we will be able to support Dolby AC4 audio natively, where on BOLT we would have to do this decode on the CPU.


@TiVo_Ted My bolt does Dolby Atmos with Vudu for some time now. Are you not going to allow Amazon and Netflix to get Atmos on Bolt?


----------



## exdishguy

Ilovemyteevo said:


> @TiVo_Ted My bolt does Dolby Atmos with Vudu for some time now. Are you not going to allow Amazon and Netflix to get Atmos on Bolt?


It probably depends on how willing you are to remain opted-in for pre-roll ads.


----------



## ajwees41

Ilovemyteevo said:


> @TiVo_Ted My bolt does Dolby Atmos with Vudu for some time now. Are you not going to allow Amazon and Netflix to get Atmos on Bolt?


the apps are up to the app developers not tivo


----------



## kucharsk

seaninde said:


> Exactly why I would never buy lifetime. You are gambling on the device lasting forever.


Have many people actually had their TiVo die irreparably before Lifetime service paid for itself compared to monthly?


----------



## mickrussom

i wont be buying anything from tivo again if they force that new horrific "ui" / "experience"

product managers who take away the choice to keep superficial things like an old ui/theme around are despicable. 

vista, windows 10, office ribbon, you name it - when the choice is taken away the result is inferior - the removal of choice is an attempt by the product manager to take something better away to prevent any ability to compare.


----------



## seaninde

mickrussom said:


> i wont be buying anything from tivo again if they force that new horrific "ui" / "experience"
> 
> product managers who take away the choice to keep superficial things like an old ui/theme around are despicable.
> 
> vista, windows 10, office ribbon, you name it - when the choice is taken away the result is inferior - the removal of choice is an attempt by the product manager to take something better away to prevent any ability to compare.


I agree that in todays world, most times companies updates their GUI (whatever the software is), it is usually worse and never for a solid reason, but just because they think they need to keep sending out updates. But I started with a Tivo Bolt in March of this year, so I assume I am on TE4? And I have no problem with that GUI. If you wanted to see a horrible GUI, you should have seen AT&T's Direct TV Now, what a piece of garbage. So I don't think its so bad as to not upgrade and get some new features or prevent someone from getting a new Tivo if their old one dies.


----------



## HerronScott

seaninde said:


> That's great! but tech is moving so fast anymore I change stuff out every 2 years or so , so for me that's a waste of money.


You would swap out your DVR every 2 years? We're running around 7 1/2 years here over the last 19 year of owning TiVo's (2 S1's, 2 S3 OLED's and 1 Roamio Pro which is 4 years old and then a used HD for my son and a tradeup to a Bolt 2).

Scott


----------



## Wigohwt

Any speculations why Edge USB ports are 3.0?

These make the Edge more modern in appearance, but technically is 3.0 necessary?


----------



## ggieseke

My guess would be external ATSC 3 tuners, which would need the bandwidth.


----------



## SullyND

ggieseke said:


> My guess would be external ATSC 3 tuners, which would need the bandwidth.


Yes, but even for cable unit?

If the Edge shares design with non-TIVo hardware is it possible arris drove the decision on USB3?


----------



## snerd

Wigohwt said:


> Any speculations why Edge USB ports are 3.0?
> 
> These make the Edge more modern in appearance, but technically is 3.0 necessary?


Probably no real benefit from 3.0, but also probably no meaningful cost benefit by staying with 2.0, so why risk losing sales since 3.0 gives "better specs"?

My theory: they love TCF and did us a favor to eliminate whining about USB 2.0 ports....


----------



## JackMcC

tenthplanet said:


> The Bolt was an attempt to break away from an ugly black box, something that could sit on shelf among books maybe a vase. But men love ugly black box.


The next gen series 8 after the Tivo Edge will probably go for a surrealistic "Salvador Dali" look with a half melted front panel.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## TiVo_Ted

DigitalDawn said:


> I always thought that TiVos could handle up to 7 or more simultaneous streams to Mini's, or was that just a Roamio capability?


Okay, I should clarify. We test the units with up to 4 MRS sessions running in conjunction with 6 recordings and another local playback (6 in, 5 out). The system is technically capable of doing more, and the software does not limit it. However, YMMV.

I was actually stress testing my TiVo Edge for Cable box the other day. I connected it to my Google mesh network via WiFi and had 6 HD recordings going on all tuners, 1 4K movie playing back from Prime Video and then had 2 MINI VOX devices connected via wireless to the same mesh network. I had the MINI's playback 2 different football games (high bitrate) from the Edge and put them each in 1x FFWD which triples the bandwidth. Then, I fired up my phone and started a playback of another football game. The entire setup was wireless, and playback was completely smooth on all devices. I've got 2 other MINI's but don't have anymore wireless adapters. Maybe I'll try to connect them via MoCA and see what happens.


----------



## krkaufman

TiVo_Ted said:


> I've got 2 other MINI's but don't have anymore wireless adapters.


Prepare for questions re: your wireless adapters and choice of mesh solution.


----------



## JoeKustra

TiVo_Ted said:


> I've got 2 other MINI's but don't have anymore wireless adapters. Maybe I'll try to connect them via MoCA and see what happens.


He said it. Mini wireless adapters? My cable company, which just started using TiVo, selected eero for their wireless solution.


----------



## Mikeguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> . . . and then had 2 MINI VOX devices connected via wireless to the same mesh network.


Presumably using the new TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter that issues when?


----------



## TiVo_Ted

Mikeguy said:


> Presumably using the new TiVo Mini Wireless Adapter that issues when?


Our current plan shows general availability next month for the WiFi adapter. Initially it will only be supported on MINI VOX, but we're hoping to get it working with A93 prefix MINI's as well.

On the mesh side, I purchased a special Costco bundle - https://www.costco.com/Google-Wifi-Dual-Band-Mesh-Wi-Fi-System,-4-Pack.product.100406436.html which includes 4 nodes vs. the standard 3-node bundle that most retailers carry. My house isn't crazy big, but I wanted to cover the driveway and back yard. The 4th node gave me some extra flexibility.


----------



## Mikeguy

TiVo_Ted said:


> Our current plan shows general availability next month for the WiFi adapter. Initially it will only be supported on MINI VOX, but we're hoping to get it working with A93 prefix MINI's as well.


Thanks--it's nice when good things happen (and we even can make y'all some income!). 

Will it be compatible with both the TE4 and TE3 platforms (and any limitations TiVo box models-wise)?


----------



## wco81

So it seems mostly to be an incremental update. 4K streaming services supported on top of Cable and OTA DVR that I already have with my old Roamio now.

So why should I upgrade as opposed to keeping my Roamio and getting the Apple TV 4K for streaming?

I can even get two Apple TV 4ks, or it’s possible successors this year, and have money left over, not to mention not having to purchase a $549 lifetime subscription for the new Edge unit.

The Apple TV 4K SOC is probably faster than whatever Broadcom media processor that the Edge is using so better for the streaming apps.

No 4K cable or OTA content any time soon and if that content is available, TiVo will have to put out new product for that.

But I am glad they’re still iterating hardware, though who knows how much longer CableCard will be supported.

Now if TiVo could guarantee that the Edge will do a LOT better than my Roamio at in home and out of home streaming, it would be something.

Or if they find a way to capture streams, though more and more streaming services are offering downloads anyways.

It’s too bad, TiVo is dependent on linear TV to offer 4K content in order to get its installed base to upgrade.

Even if that happens, the MSOs might cut out third party DVR companies anyways.


----------



## BillyClyde

Does anyone know if the Edge for Antenna still has the cablecard slot which can be adapted with a bracket from an old TiVo so it can also work with cable TV, like you can with the Roamio OTA?


----------



## snerd

BillyClyde said:


> Does anyone know if the Edge for Antenna still has the cablecard slot which can be adapted with a bracket from an old TiVo so it can also work with cable TV, like you can with the Roamio OTA?


No, the OTA Edge is OTA only. No CableCard slot, since it lacks cable tuners. The OTA Edge also has no built-in MoCA.


----------



## buildersboy66

Anybody get theirs today via tivo.com or phone purchase from tivo? Activated and running?


----------



## BillyClyde

snerd said:


> No, the OTA Edge is OTA only. No CableCard slot, since it lacks cable tuners. The OTA Edge also has no built-in MoCA.


Has this been physically checked and confirmed? The same was thought about the Roamio OTA and that was false, it can and does do Cable with cablecard. I know because I'm doing it as we speak.


----------



## JLV03

BillyClyde said:


> Has this been physically checked and confirmed? The same was thought about the Roamio OTA and that was false, it can and does do Cable with cablecard. I know because I'm doing it as we speak.


If we use the Bolt OTA as an example, the hardware is physically not there; neither the cable card slot port nor the cable/MoCa tuner.


----------



## pfiagra

BillyClyde said:


> Has this been physically checked and confirmed? The same was thought about the Roamio OTA and that was false, it can and does do Cable with cablecard. I know because I'm doing it as we speak.


The Roamio OTA was modified from the basic Roamio, so it's design basically had already included the necessary components (minus the CableCard bracket).


----------



## KevTech

So with TE4 we can no longer transfer from PC > Tivo and now I see this in another thread about Edge bugs.
Makes me maybe not want Edge at all.



TiVo_Ted said:


> TiVo-to-Go transfers from Edge to a PC are not working. We are still investigating what may be happening here, but TTG is not technically a supported feature so I'm not sure when/if there will be a fix for this one.


----------



## CIR-Engineering

ej42137 said:


> *Series 3*, where the support was introduced, did not have the restriction to particular models of external drives. Otherwise you are correct, the very next model, the *Series 3 HD* had a very short white list of accepted external drives.
> 
> On the other hand, what is the point of USB 3.0 on the Edge if an external disk is not going to be connected to it? The only things I know to attach to the TiVo's USB ports are Tuning Adapters, keyboards, USB cooling fans and USB powered digital clocks; none of these benefit from USB 3.0.


ATSC 3.0 USB tuner.

craigr


----------



## ej42137

CIR-Engineering said:


> ATSC 3.0 USB tuner.
> 
> craigr



Someone else had the same thought.

I doubt ATSC 3.0 is going to go anywhere. Consumers don't really want what it offers, and providers don't want to risk the capital in a contracting market. So if that's the excuse, it's a non-starter.


----------



## BillyClyde

JLV03 said:


> If we use the Bolt OTA as an example, the hardware is physically not there; neither the cable card slot port nor the cable/MoCa tuner.


Perhaps you didn't read my posts thoroughly?.......



BillyClyde said:


> Does anyone know if the Edge for Antenna still has the cablecard slot *which can be adapted with a bracket from an old TiVo so it can also work with cable TV, like you can with the Roamio OTA?*





BillyClyde said:


> Has this been physically checked and confirmed? *The same was thought about the Roamio OTA and that was false, it can and does do Cable with cablecard. I know because I'm doing it as we speak.*


I've already explained in the posts above that the Roamio OTA does indeed have "the hardware" installed, with the exception of the bracket that holds the cablecard. This is easily remedied by using a bracket from another TiVo. Which as I also said, I did and I am using said Roamio OTA as we speak......with digital cable using a cablecard. It doesn't do MoCA (neither does the base Roamio if I'm not mistaken?), but yes it indeed does have the requisite QAM tuner needed for cable tuning.

Hence the very reason for my question about the Edge for Antenna. 



pfiagra said:


> The Roamio OTA was modified from the basic Roamio, so it's design basically had already included the necessary components (minus the CableCard bracket).


Exactly!


----------



## CIR-Engineering

ej42137 said:


> Someone else had the same thought.
> 
> I doubt ATSC 3.0 is going to go anywhere. Consumers don't really want what it offers, and providers don't want to risk the capital in a contracting market. So if that's the excuse, it's a non-starter.


TiVo has been working on a USB. ATSC 3.0 tuner.

TiVo Demos ATSC 3.0 Network Tuner To Retrofit Existing DVRs

While I agree ATSC 3.0 has probably shot its self in the foot on many levels and without a mandate...

I hope it does work out because better reception alone is enough for me to hope. No more multipath problems.

craigr


----------



## aaronwt

krkaufman said:


> You'll want to check with engineering on this. The Roamio and later DVRs can surely support more than 4 simultaneous "whole home" streams to networked Minis.
> 
> As for mobile streaming, @Dan203's FAQ is a good reference. See: TiVo Stream FAQ


They can support over 12 read/write streams. Including the internal tuners being written to the hard drive.

Sent from my Galaxy S10


----------



## krkaufman

BillyClyde said:


> Hence the very reason for my question about the Edge for Antenna.


The Roamio OTA is a poor starting point for expecting an EDGE for OTA to have hidden CableCARD capabilities, for the reasons you cited. They took a current box with both and just removed the CableCARD bracket to "create" the Roamio OTA. It would be exceedingly surprising for the EDGE for OTA to have hidden QAM functionality, both because of the additional costs for hardware superfluous to an OTA-only DVR and because they'd properly stripped-down the BOLT OTA before its release, similarly also snuffing MoCA along with the QAM tuners.


----------



## BillyClyde

krkaufman said:


> The Roamio OTA is a poor starting point for expecting an EDGE for OTA to have hidden CableCARD capabilities, for the reasons you cited. They took a current box with both and just removed the CableCARD bracket to "create" the Roamio OTA. It would be exceedingly surprising for the EDGE for OTA to have hidden QAM functionality, both because of the additional costs for hardware superfluous to an OTA-only DVR and because they'd properly stripped-down the BOLT OTA before its release, similarly also snuffing MoCA along with the QAM tuners.


It's still worth asking the question though. 

Most (if not all) tuners for ATSC also tune QAM, so it isn't a stretch.

Thanks, I didn't know that about Bolt OTA so that helps clarify the picture some, but it's still worth a two minute gander at the bottom of an Edge for Antenna from a new owner to see what's there and possible. That's all I'm asking. Until then it's all speculation.


----------



## krkaufman

BillyClyde said:


> Thanks, I didn't know that about Bolt OTA so that helps clarify the picture some, but it's still worth a two minute gander at the bottom of an Edge for Antenna from a new owner to see what's there and possible. That's all I'm asking. Until then it's all speculation.


Totally concur; I just wanted to reset your expectations and try to relate the relevance of the previous posts citing the BOLT OTA, which arguably shifts the neighborhood in which the speculation should reside.


----------



## snerd

BillyClyde said:


> Until then it's all speculation.


Well, there's also the fact that the feature list for the cable Edge includes MoCA while the feature list for OTA Edge excludes MoCA, tracking with the corresponding Bolt boxes. This isn't completely conclusive since early release documentation for TiVo products is traditionally full of typos.


----------



## BillyClyde

snerd said:


> Well, there's also the fact that the feature list for the cable Edge includes MoCA while the feature list for OTA Edge excludes MoCA, tracking with the corresponding Bolt boxes. This isn't completely conclusive since early release documentation for TiVo products is traditionally full of typos.


True but the Roamio OTA also didn't have MoCA.


----------



## krkaufman

BillyClyde said:


> True but the Roamio OTA also didn't have MoCA.


This misses the attempted point.

As you stated, the comparable 4-tuner Roamio also lacked MoCA, so the Roamio OTA lacking MoCA isn't an indicator of altered electronics. However, for both the BOLT and EDGE series, the OTA-only units are the only models lacking MoCA, an indication that more was done in producing the OTA-only version than simply removing a CableCARD bracket.

We'll see; just seemed like you still weren't understanding why people were offering the BOLT OTA as a more relevant starting point for speculation than the Roamio OTA.


----------



## CubsWin

This question has probably been answered before, but does the Edge for cable also simultaneously support OTA? Or is it cable only?


----------



## krkaufman

CubsWin said:


> This question has probably been answered before, but does the Edge for cable also simultaneously support OTA? Or is it cable only?


With the EDGE series "for XXX" means exclusively for use with that source type; there is currently no EDGE capable of switching between either.


----------



## krkaufman

Interesting nugget from TiVo_Ted...


TiVo_Ted said:


> One thing that has changed is that Edge does not have a blue light on the front to indicate transfers in progress. You should still see the transfers in your To Do List with a blue dot next to them when they are transferring.


----------



## buildersboy66

EDGE for cable at 47 ODT. 76 in house.


----------



## JoeKustra

buildersboy66 said:


> EDGE for cable at 47 ODT. 76 in house.


Well, they tried.  Of course, we don't know what it is measuring. Keep an eye on the air intake.


----------



## okay_see

I wonder if the new Edge will allow for ethernet connection via a switch and not necessitate a direct connection to the router?


----------



## Mikeguy

JoeKustra said:


> buildersboy66 said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDGE for cable at 47 ODT. 76 in house.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, they tried.  *Of course, we don't know what it is measuring. *Keep an eye on the air intake.
Click to expand...

 *

* If, by any chance, the measurement is similar to that on the Bolt platform, 47 ODT is pretty good, in the neighborhood of what Bolt box owners often report after taking further cooling measures. Of course, who knows what it means in the end practically, if anything.


----------



## longrider

okay_see said:


> I wonder if the new Edge will allow for ethernet connection via a switch and not necessitate a direct connection to the router?


I am not sure what you are referring to other than an occasional uninformed instruction from a CSR. My Bolt runs through 2 switches to get to the internet and even the 4 ports on the back of the router is a switch


----------



## cherry ghost

Anyone want to open theirs up to see what drive is being used?


----------



## buildersboy66

Brand: SEAGATE
Model: ST2000VT000
Product: Video 2.5 HDD

no need to open


----------



## okay_see

longrider said:


> I am not sure what you are referring to other than an occasional uninformed instruction from a CSR. My Bolt runs through 2 switches to get to the internet and even the 4 ports on the back of the router is a switch


Yes, the 4 ports on the router is technically a switch, but I've NEVER been able to successfully keep network connections up with Roamios or minis when connected to a stand-alone switch. Tivo support (back when they were quality) informed me that they needed to be directly connected to router for ethernet cable option. They were right. Not sure if this was resolved with Bolts. I switched units over to Moca to avoid the issue.


----------



## kdmorse

okay_see said:


> Yes, the 4 ports on the router is technically a switch, but I've NEVER been able to successfully keep network connections up with Roamios or minis when connected to a stand-alone switch. Tivo support (back when they were quality) informed me that they needed to be directly connected to router for ethernet cable option. They were right. Not sure if this was resolved with Bolts. I switched units over to Moca to avoid the issue.


Sswitch problems have historically fallen into one of two categories:
* "Green" switches which were over-aggressively green. (*cough* TP-Link *cough*)
* Switches with out-of-the-box broken IGMP settings. (*cough* Netgear *cough*)

(There's always the odd case of the lunatic that installs 5 switches in a loop, doesn't realize that's why is network 'seems slow' in general, or that that's why the mini's can't keep track of their parents.)

All of which are due to oddities of the specific switches or local network topology in question. There is no 'general' switch incompatibility with Tivos or Minis, of any generation.

(I'm not saying you didn't experience the problems you did. Only that there was a specific, local reason for said issues).


----------



## okay_see

kdmorse said:


> Sswitch problems have historically fallen into one of two categories:
> * "Green" switches which were over-aggressively green. (*cough* TP-Link *cough*)
> * Switches with out-of-the-box broken IGMP settings. (*cough* Netgear *cough*)
> 
> (There's always the odd case of the lunatic that installs 5 switches in a loop, doesn't realize that's why is network 'seems slow' in general, or that that's why the mini's can't keep track of their parents.)
> 
> All of which are due to oddities of the specific switches or local network topology in question. There is no 'general' switch incompatibility with Tivos or Minis, of any generation.
> 
> (I'm not saying you didn't experience the problems you did. Only that there was a specific, local reason for said issues).


I can appreciate your input. However, no other devices on the network run off of the standalone switch (pcs, printers, wireless access points, powerline adapter, moca adapter) have any issues and experience full throughput 100% of the time. Tech support told me back in 2015 that I needed to connect directly to router and it worked.

Tivo Mini through a network switch

It was a pretty widespread problem. Tivo support specifically instructed against the use of any switches and told me they didn't support those connections. Anyway, if it's resolved with newer VOXes and TE4 I may give it a whirl again. but Moca has been running flawlessly.


----------



## dianebrat

okay_see said:


> It was a pretty widespread problem. Tivo support specifically instructed against the use of any switches and told me they didn't support those connections. Anyway, if it's resolved with newer VOXes and TE4 I may give it a whirl again. but Moca has been running flawlessly.


It's actually not that widespread, never was.
When Tivo says they "won't support switches" that's all it means, their support group will not troubleshooting switches and consumer network issues, that's why it's stated that way, it is not, was not, and will never be that their products won't work with switches as many have tried to say in the past, it's just miscommunication.

I'd say a good 98% of folks on TCF that use a Tivo product have it connected to a switch with no issues.


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

okay_see said:


> Yes, the 4 ports on the router is technically a switch, but I've NEVER been able to successfully keep network connections up with Roamios or minis when connected to a stand-alone switch. Tivo support (back when they were quality) informed me that they needed to be directly connected to router for ethernet cable option. They were right. Not sure if this was resolved with Bolts. I switched units over to Moca to avoid the issue.


I've got a Roamio and three v2 Minis behind a large switch and then smaller five-port switches downstream behind that in every location. In the past I've also had a Bolt, a Premier, and two HD boxes in similar configurations. No problems at all. Lately I don't rent a modem/router from the cable company - I have my own Arris modem connected to a separate master router - but in the past I did rent a modem from them with no TiVo problems then either.


----------



## okay_see

Loooook, I understand that a lot of you had success with your switches. Great and no headache for you. But for a decent number of users (even if not a majority) there were problems. Why else would people write about it in this forum? Aren't there bigger fish to fry than to point to the guy with an issue to say "no sir, you were the only one because you (maybe implied) don't know how to plug in or configure a switch"? Let's move on, thanks? Happy weekend!


----------



## Pokemon_Dad

Sorry @okay_see, not trying to pile on, just hoping to point out it's probably the brand of switch and/or the cable company's modem/router. If you ever want your devices further away from the router, I'd recommend trying others.


----------



## aaronwt

Yes. I've been using switches with my TiVos ever since they had network connections. Whether on a switch or connected directly to the router, performance has always been identical. Like all the hundreds of network devices I've used over the last twenty four years at home. Currently I run through several switches with my TiVos.


----------



## Robert Wood

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Article was updated and now says it'll launch with those services.
> 
> "TiVo Plus will include video on demand services from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, YouTube, content provider Xumo, entertainment company Jukin Media and newspaper publisher Gannett. More will be announced in October. Shull said TiVo is still in talks to add other services, such as NBC, SlingTV and TikTok."
> 
> So... I guess Plus is also limited by the apps available for its given platform. Apps like NBC, SlingTV, Tiktok (barf) are more likely to be available on the dongle than the DVRs.
> 
> List of Xumo channels for smart TVs:
> 
> XUMO » Channel Lineup for XUMO on Smart TVs & Roku


----------



## Robert Wood

Robert Simandl said:


> I just asked the same question mere minutes ago (hadn't seen yours yet) because my Bolt died with the four flashing lights last week.


----------



## Robert Wood

As did my roamio. Coincidence? Btw i got the cable edge and so far wish roamio was back.


----------



## AMS

As an ex-Roamio user (and nearly every unit prior) and recent TiVo Edge owner, I will agree that there were some teething issues early on, but I am up and running and the speed upgrade has been phenomenal. I would be happy to help out if others would like more information/guidance. After all, we are here as a community to help one another. Thanks to all of those who have helped me thus far!


----------



## Robert Wood

Teething issues? Id say. Yesterday i was able to see prime- today after a power outage i cannot get the app back.

is there a way to eliminate tivo+ everywhere it shows? Or resize tiles on first screen?


----------



## AMS

Didn’t notice until you just mentioned, but I don’t see Amazon Prime on apps now... I’m sure there’s more to that story as well. As for TiVo+, I’m not seeing any reference to it at all now...on either the home screen or the channel guide.


----------



## gamo62

Has anyone opened the Edge and upgraded the hard drive? How hard is it?


----------



## Wigohwt

gamo62 said:


> Has anyone opened the Edge and upgraded the hard drive? How hard is it?


I don't believe it would be wise for anyone to try this now until TiVo gets all the bugs figured out.
It could be a while.


----------



## aaronwt

Wigohwt said:


> I don't believe it would be wise for anyone to try this now until TiVo gets all the bugs figured out.
> It could be a while.


I'm surprised no one has upgraded yet. The Bolt also had issues when it was introduced in 2015. But people started upgrading the drives within a few weeks of release. I know I upgraded soon after someone posted what was needed.


----------



## wco81

They should just let you connect cheap portable USB 3 drives to expand storage.

It's farging 2019 Tivo.


----------



## Wigohwt

aaronwt said:


> I'm surprised no one has upgraded yet. The Bolt also had issues when it was introduced in 2015. But people started upgrading the drives within a few weeks of release.


I'm curious too, but if I'm not mistaken, the first Bolts (the white ones) had 3.5" drives.
Maybe not much of a distinction, since we're accustomed to the external enclosure method now.

The first test might be to try an Edge with an external enclosure using a cloned 2TB drive, just to see if that will work. No guarantee of that just because the Bolt works, but there should be no problem.



aaronwt said:


> I know I upgraded soon after someone posted what was needed.


That's another thing, the Edge's HDD will need to be examined to see what, if any, changes are required to be made to mfsr and MFS Tools.


----------



## dianebrat

Wigohwt said:


> I'm curious too, but if I'm not mistaken, the first Bolts (the white ones) had 3.5" drives.


You're mistaken, the bolt has always been 2.5" drives in all models


----------



## Wigohwt

dianebrat said:


> You're mistaken, the bolt has always been 2.5" drives in all models


Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## flar

Weaknees is already offering 3TB pre-upgraded Edge units for sale, but they don't have the Edge listed in the hard drive upgrade section. Perhaps for now the process is too much for an end user to deal with? Or perhaps they need to work on their upgrade instructions first before they can ship upgrade drives by themselves? Either way, it looks like the upgraded unit would be $100 cheaper than buying a 2TB unit and the hard drive separately - if and when they offer it.


----------



## Wigohwt

flar said:


> Or perhaps they need to work on their upgrade instructions first before they can ship upgrade drives by themselves?


It is probably that. The Edge likely formats normally up to 3TB like the Roamio and Bolt.


flar said:


> ... it looks like the upgraded unit would be $100 cheaper than buying a 2TB unit and the hard drive separately.


Yes, the savings of not ending up with 2 HDDs. The real problem of course is the 2.5" 3TB reliability issue.


----------



## rtoledo

tarheelblue32 said:


> I think the Roamio Pro was the last time TiVo really impressed me. 6 tuners and 3TB of hard drive space, along with a processor that was fast enough (unlike the Premiere), and built-in streaming chip that could handle 4 simultaneous streams. Fast forward two generations and the Edge has a smaller hard drive, the same number of tuners, and (I think) can only handle 2 simultaneous streams (may be wrong about that, but I know the Bolt could only handle 2). TiVo essentially maxed out the hardware with the Roamio Pro (with the exception of the processor speeds which obviously keep improving over time).


Are we confusing a Cablecard's ability to handle 6 channels with what Tivo is doing with their hardware due to CPU speed / abilities ? 
Because it's my understanding of the Cablecards Specifications, that each cable card is capable and ABLE to decode 6 channels / streams. specifically the ones with 017 in the middle of the part number (they are version 3 ).

If the Roamio was able to do 6 channels then I have to ask the old experts here, what was the cpu on the Roamio? and how fast was it ? what kind of hardware encoders / capabilities did it have ?

does the Black Tivo + that does 6 channels, have the same CPU that my Bolt has in it ? I have the ones with a OTA or Cable setup.


----------



## rtoledo

TiVo_Ted said:


> They are both limited to 2 transcoded streams. With MINI, you can support up to 4 streams because they aren't transcoded.


do we have a link that explains your statement ? I'm confusing your "transcoded 2 streams " with what I think a Cablecard does ? and I thought ALL cable cards can decode 6 channels ?

If not Tivo Ted anyone else that has a link or a good explanantion. it sounds like I'm mixing 2 different things here

thank you in advance for the info.


----------



## rtoledo

Wigohwt said:


> It is probably that. The Edge likely formats normally up to 3TB like the Roamio and Bolt.
> 
> Yes, the savings of not ending up with 2 HDDs. The real problem of course is the 2.5" 3TB reliability issue.


Funny thing , I just ran across my posts with JMBACH a few years back when I wanted to pull the 500 and put in a 3TB. all I did was buy a 2.5" 3TB , BUT put it outside the Bolt in a enclosure, so far it was running and is still great after 3 ? years. It's obvious to me that the toy fan in the Bolt is the issue with that box. once you put the drive with it's own power supply and fan the issues go away.


----------



## rtoledo

exdishguy said:


> I still think Roamio was their best box ever. Bolt is fine once I tossed a cap on the fan leads but it is just very cheap feeling and one of the worst industrial designs in CE history to me personally.
> 
> The whole prohibiting TE3 backrev on Edge is silly to me. Especially now that opting out of pre-roll ads is an option. They are still using Broadcom and the PHYs are likely the same/similar so I cannot believe Arris couldn't easily port drivers to this new platform. I get that TE3 would still be maintenance frozen but still...I'm betting they'd get a bunch of Tivo-lifers to sink $1k into the box for yet another LT subscription.


I would in a second. ALSO and I'm probably wrong here, but how much longer are they going to have that 2 GIG limit per partition? are they using a 32 bit version of Linux ? I have been meaning to ask JMBACH if we can look at partitions and their properties with MFStools ? I want to learn more about the layout


----------



## rtoledo

wco81 said:


> So it seems mostly to be an incremental update. 4K streaming services supported on top of Cable and OTA DVR that I already have with my old Roamio now.
> 
> But I am glad they're still iterating hardware, though who knows how much longer CableCard will be supported.
> 
> .


are you aware that ALL Cable set tops and DVR's have a " cablecard" soldered in them ? and that the FCC mandated cablecard be supported is not going away ? I have read that some of the new ones are using other options.

I'd love to here if there's news contradicting what i wrote about


----------



## rtoledo

JoeKustra said:


> Well, they tried.  Of course, we don't know what it is measuring. Keep an eye on the air intake.


can you explain what 


buildersboy66 said:


> EDGE for cable at 47 ODT. 76 in house.


What is ODT ?


----------



## JoeKustra

rtoledo said:


> What is ODT ?


From TiVo: TiVo Holiday Trade-In, Trade-Up Sale: trade in your Roamio OTA/VOX (plus $299.98) for a Bolt OTA


----------



## wco81

rtoledo said:


> Are we confusing a Cablecard's ability to handle 6 channels with what Tivo is doing with their hardware due to CPU speed / abilities ?
> Because it's my understanding of the Cablecards Specifications, that each cable card is capable and ABLE to decode 6 channels / streams. specifically the ones with 017 in the middle of the part number (they are version 3 ).
> 
> If the Roamio was able to do 6 channels then I have to ask the old experts here, what was the cpu on the Roamio? and how fast was it ? what kind of hardware encoders / capabilities did it have ?
> 
> does the Black Tivo + that does 6 channels, have the same CPU that my Bolt has in it ? I have the ones with a OTA or Cable setup.


Yeah I can't imagine the Broadcom or whichever vendor they use in the Tivos would have gone backwards in 4-5 years.

Or maybe they chose a lower end model in the newer DVRs?

Problem is, the market for these processors isn't large so maybe they're not improving it that much.

Really, Tivo's only hope for a big upgrade cycle is that the networks start pumping out UHD HDR content, including NFL and NBA games and that will drive current owners to upgrade.

But networks aren't interested in doing that. Only the streaming services are pushing UHD HDR.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

rtoledo said:


> If the Roamio was able to do 6 channels then I have to ask the old experts here, what was the cpu on the Roamio? and how fast was it ? what kind of hardware encoders / capabilities did it have ?
> 
> does the Black Tivo + that does 6 channels, have the same CPU that my Bolt has in it ? I have the ones with a OTA or Cable setup.


Bolt CPU is 3x more powerful than the Roamio. Edge is 25% faster than Bolt.

The # of tuners isn't a feature of the CPU. The tuner hardware is separate.



rtoledo said:


> do we have a link that explains your statement ? I'm confusing your "transcoded 2 streams " with what I think a Cablecard does ? and I thought ALL cable cards can decode 6 channels ?
> 
> If not Tivo Ted anyone else that has a link or a good explanantion. it sounds like I'm mixing 2 different things here.


You're mixing 3 different things.  Cablecards can do 6 streams.

What Ted was talking about is the streaming from Tivo-to-Mini, which has nothing to do with cablecards or tuners. Most Tivos since the 4-tuner Premiere can handle 4 or more streams simultaneously.

He was also talking about Tivo-to-mobile streaming, which requires a special transcoding process by the Tivo so that it can be played on the mobile device. The Bolt and Edge can do 2 of those types of streams at once.


----------



## rtoledo

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Bolt CPU is 3x more powerful than the Roamio. Edge is 25% faster than Bolt.
> 
> The # of tuners isn't a feature of the CPU. The tuner hardware is separate.
> 
> You're mixing 3 different things.  Cablecards can do 6 streams.
> 
> What Ted was talking about is the streaming from Tivo-to-Mini, which has nothing to do with cablecards or tuners. Most Tivos since the 4-tuner Premiere can handle 4 or more streams simultaneously.
> 
> He was also talking about Tivo-to-mobile streaming, which requires a special transcoding process by the Tivo so that it can be played on the mobile device. The Bolt and Edge can do 2 of those types of streams at once.


Thank you for that clarification, I thought I was loosing my memory


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## ggieseke

rtoledo said:


> I would in a second. ALSO and I'm probably wrong here, but how much longer are they going to have that 2 GIG limit per partition? are they using a 32 bit version of Linux ? I have been meaning to ask JMBACH if we can look at partitions and their properties with MFStools ? I want to learn more about the layout


The 2TB limit is basically a long-standing bug in the TiVo software. They developed a 64-bit version of MFS a long time ago, and their own auto format code on Roamios and later models creates a perfect file system even on drives over 3TB. The bug comes into play during startup. As each of the MFS 'zones' (app, inode & media) are loaded they add the number of 512-byte sectors in each zone to a counter and compare that total to a 64-bit field in the overall MFS volume header. The problem is that they only add the lower 32 bits of each 64-bit zone header to the total. When the numbers don't match it reformats the drive again based on the lower number.

Technically it's a zone limit and not a partition limit, but since the media partitions and media zones are generally the same thing the result is the same. The Linux operating system used to choke on any drive over 2TB, but that was fixed in all versions later than 20.3.8 back in the Premiere days.


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## rtoledo

ggieseke said:


> The 2TB limit is basically a long-standing bug in the TiVo software. They developed a 64-bit version of MFS a long time ago, and their own auto format code on Roamios and later models creates a perfect file system even on drives over 3TB. The bug comes into play during startup. As each of the MFS 'zones' (app, inode & media) are loaded they add the number of 512-byte sectors in each zone to a counter and compare that total to a 64-bit field in the overall MFS volume header. The problem is that they only add the lower 32 bits of each 64-bit zone header to the total. When the numbers don't match it reformats the drive again based on the lower number.
> 
> Technically it's a zone limit and not a partition limit, but since the media partitions and media zones are generally the same thing the result is the same. The Linux operating system used to choke on any drive over 2TB, but that was fixed in all versions later than 20.3.8 back in the Premiere days.


 This seems like a " trivial " 64 bit programming issue (and no where near as hard as the bank switching in the old Atari 800's. I did a lot of cracking back in the 80's ).
I wonder why they do not fix it,(besides the fact they only sell models up to 2TB) it would make their product so much more valuable to consumers.

I'm *guessing* here from snipets I've read in here, but even if this community came up with a fix it would be hard to implement as I understand it the OS is not in the hard drive? but in NVRAM ?

and the routine to load it is not well understood?
it would require reverse engineering it to do a home update ?

so is there another bug introduced with the new "experience" that adds to the issues with large drives and t4. it's so much more easy to use

sorry if i seem cavalier about the bug, it's not my intention.

thank you so much for this.


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## randian

ggieseke said:


> The 2TB limit is basically a long-standing bug in the TiVo software. They developed a 64-bit version of MFS a long time ago, and their own auto format code on Roamios and later models creates a perfect file system even on drives over 3TB. The bug comes into play during startup. As each of the MFS 'zones' (app, inode & media) are loaded they add the number of 512-byte sectors in each zone to a counter and compare that total to a 64-bit field in the overall MFS volume header. The problem is that they only add the lower 32 bits of each 64-bit zone header to the total. When the numbers don't match it reformats the drive again based on the lower number.


I wouldn't classify this as a bug (though it's clearly erroneous code). The most junior C programmer wouldn't make the mistake of summing 64-bit values with a 32-bit counter and then comparing that counter to a 64-bit header field. This sort of thing only happens when it's deliberate, and only stays that way with malice aforethought. It is, after all, fixable in less than 10 minutes, including time spent writing the defect report and building a new kernel binary.


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## snerd

randian said:


> I wouldn't classify this as a bug (though it's clearly erroneous code). The most junior C programmer wouldn't make the mistake of summing 64-bit values with a 32-bit counter and then comparing that counter to a 64-bit header field. This sort of thing only happens when it's deliberate, and only stays that way with malice aforethought. It is, after all, fixable in less than 10 minutes, including time spent writing the defect report and building a new kernel binary.


Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity"


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## slowbiscuit

Yep, we all know Tivo has a long history of breaking about as much as they fix with every SW release. Can't assume all their devs are good.


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## mickrussom

NashGuy said:


> The old Encore UI has been officially deprecated. Would be very unusual for any tech company to roll out brand new products with the option to roll back to last-gen deprecated software


If the new fangled star spangled software cant handle simple UI skinning and UI/UX personalities then its garbage manufactured and written by know-nothings, freshers and slavers in the tird-world.

I'm done with Tivo - the Bolt was the end. Con-te-partiro. If encore is gone, so am I. Im using plex on Roku which for me covers 90% of what Tivo used to do for me.

My account has an active Series1 Sony 30 Hour PTV Recorder.

but dont listen to me, its not like i know anything or am a fan.


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## mickrussom

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, we all know Tivo has a long history of breaking about as much as they fix with every SW release. Can't assume all their devs are good.


at this point its become painfully clear none of them are. and the product managers are horrific.


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## pbug56

TiVo_Ted said:


> Yes, the EDGE for Cable model is 6 tuners with 2TB of storage. We are just starting to take orders today, but I don't believe units will ship out until Friday or possibly even Monday. We're still setting up the new ordering and supply chain and ran into a few problems with our new currency and tax system we installed to support direct sales into Canada in $CDN.


Do you happen to know why they built it so small that it can't take 3.5 HDD's so therefore is limited to 2TB? Huge drop from my Bolt - which just died a few days ago at just under 3 years. Warrantied, so *5 day* '*overnight*' shipping will get me an Edge early next week. Also, why can you no longer use an external HDD to improve capacity? I also discovered to my horror after the old box died with no warning that the TIVO web site doesn't save my OnePass settings? Finally, why can't buy an extended warranty for the replacement? Thanks!


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## Pokemon_Dad

pbug56 said:


> Do you happen to know why they built it so small that it can't take 3.5 HDD's so therefore is limited to 2TB? Huge drop from my Bolt - which just died a few days ago at just under 3 years. Warrantied, so *5 day* '*overnight*' shipping will get me an Edge early next week. Also, why can you no longer use an external HDD to improve capacity? I also discovered to my horror after the old box died with no warning that the TIVO web site doesn't save my OnePass settings? Finally, why can't buy an extended warranty for the replacement? Thanks!


Ted doesn't work for TiVo anymore. I doubt he'll reply, but I bet he's not happy about any of those things either. All I can speak to is the HDD situation.

As you appear to have noticed, the Edge doesn't have the eSATA port used to connect DVR Expander drives to previous models. But it is possible to completely replace the internal drive in the Edge with an external 3.5" drive. Weaknees sells drive kits or preconfigured units up to 14 TB. There must be a way to DIY completely, but I don't have an Edge so have never looked into it.

In fact I've had it with TiVo. So, while keeping our last remaining Tivo running - a Roamio Pro on TE3, and by the way the Edge does not support TE3 - we've been getting used to Channels DVR as a long-term replacement, and liking it.


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## Sixto

Yep, here's the video, it's very easy to swap to external: 




It works great, it does cost some $, but I just wanted the best possible robust setup, been running this way on two Edge's for a couple of weeks now.

I went with WD30PURZ drives, which are in the Weaknees 3TB enclosure, or can be had for $85 plus the other parts.


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## Sixto

I also added the AC Infinity MULTIFAN S4 fan underneath both Edge's, as an extra pre-caution, though probably totally unnecessary, especially with no internal hard drive.

The Edge's were running at 44°C ODT prior to the fan, now at 38°C ODT. The previous Bolt+'s were +30°C higher, very hot, these Edge's run so cool in comparison, but figured I'd play to see how low I could get the temperature with a nice fan.


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## Harry Hotter

What are the two USB ports on the back of Edge for?
To my shock and dismay, I found out today that unlike my 10-year old TiVo, the new TiVo Edge does *NOT* support a keyboard!
Using the on-screen keyboard with the remote (not even a mouse is supported) really feels like a throwback.
I have also read that the USB ports do not support external storage or storage expansion.
I should add that my Edge has built-in WiFi, so the ports cannot be for WiFi adapter.


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## ajwees41

Harry Hotter said:


> What are the two USB ports on the back of Edge for?
> To my shock and dismay, I found out today that unlike my 10-year old TiVo, the new TiVo Edge does *NOT* support a keyboard!
> Using the on-screen keyboard with the remote (not even a mouse is supported) really feels like a throwback.
> I have also read that the USB ports do not support external storage or storage expansion.
> I should add that my Edge has built-in WiFi, so the ports cannot be for WiFi adapter.


 for tuning adapters


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## Harry Hotter

ajwees41 said:


> for tuning adapters


Thank you for responding. From the TiVo website:

"*CableCARD*s are required for decrypting programming and for decoding copy protection on your channels. *CableCARD*(s) must be working properly before you can test the operation of a *tuning adapter*."

So why would a "*TiVo Edge for Antenna*", which does not accept *CableCARDs*, have USB ports?


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## kdmorse

I do not believe they have any official documented use.

*Maybe* if the unit still works with the old usb dongle for the slide remote - even that's a stretch. And like all random USB ports, people find them handy to power other things (fans, clocks, etc..))

The reasonable answers are "future use" (which we'll likely never see), "they were already on the motherboard, what do you want them to do, rip them off?", and "meh, who cares".

I'm surprised and disappointed to hear that they've broken USB keyboard support. It was never an official feature, but it was sure nice to have when entering a wifi password.


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## yesno

Harry Hotter said:


> Thank you for responding. From the TiVo website:
> 
> "*CableCARD*s are required for decrypting programming and for decoding copy protection on your channels. *CableCARD*(s) must be working properly before you can test the operation of a *tuning adapter*."
> 
> So why would a "*TiVo Edge for Antenna*", which does not accept *CableCARDs*, have USB ports?


TiVo WiFi 5 USB Adapter
Remote USB Bluetooth Adapter


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## BillyClyde

So has TiVo finally fixed the Dolby Vision issue for Sony TVs on the Edge DVRs?


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## dbattaglia001

BillyClyde said:


> So has TiVo finally fixed the Dolby Vision issue for Sony TVs on the Edge DVRs?


I'm curious about this too. Was thinking about ordering an Edge from the advertised promotion that ends tomorrow. I had an older LCD that just died and ordered a sony A8H OLED from prime day so this will be my first experience being able to experience Dolby Vision (and ATMOS). But in trying to understand what this means for EDGE, is it basically that at most I could view content in dolby vision via the EDGE Netflix or VUDU apps (assuming TiVo fixed the dolby vision issues)?


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## BillyClyde

dbattaglia001 said:


> I'm curious about this too. Was thinking about ordering an Edge from the advertised promotion that ends tomorrow. I had an older LCD that just died and ordered a sony A8H OLED from prime day so this will be my first experience being able to experience Dolby Vision (and ATMOS). But in trying to understand what this means for EDGE, is it basically that at most I could view content in dolby vision via the EDGE Netflix or VUDU apps (assuming TiVo fixed the dolby vision issues)?


Yes it is my understanding that it is the apps that would offer dolby vision on the edge. There isn't any broadcast dv that I am aware of, but I am not sure if when you activate dv on the edge with a tv that supports the full signal unlike older sonys, if it converts everything to dv or not?

I read that the newer sony hdtvs now support full dv so your a8h may work with dv even if the edge hasn't been fixed. You would have to check that model to be sure as I don't know.


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## BillyClyde

Is there no one with a sony tv and an edge that can test this?


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## ajwees41

Harry Hotter said:


> Thank you for responding. From the TiVo website:
> 
> "*CableCARD*s are required for decrypting programming and for decoding copy protection on your channels. *CableCARD*(s) must be working properly before you can test the operation of a *tuning adapter*."
> 
> So why would a "*TiVo Edge for Antenna*", which does not accept *CableCARDs*, have USB ports?


most likely easier to manufacture one board and add stuff then 2 different boards


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