# Lost -- 10/4 *spoilers*



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Ok, what an amazingly cool beginning.

I loved it, hoped for something like it, and was psyched to get it.



Now back to the show...


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Ok, what an amazingly cool beginning.
> 
> I loved it, hoped for something like it, and was psyched to get it.
> 
> Now back to the show...


oh damn!


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Are we supposed to know that Juliette lady?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

She's looking familiar to me, but I can't place her.

Heck, I'm having a hard time remembering where last season left off. Obviously the 3 Muskateers were captured but I'm blanking on how/when/why?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Remember Michael led them there to trade for Walt. Michael and Walt were given a boat and Kate Jack and Sawyer were "transfered" to the other's "home".


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## bqmeister (May 13, 2006)

Did julie bowen play jacks wife last season? I know Julie Bowen, but don't remember seeing her on the show before.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Yes - she has always played Jack's wife.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Sure would be nice to see what's going on with the other people on the plane......

It seems like a wacky plot device between Jack and his dad

Also, there's no way they'd be able to shut that door with the water pressure rushing in from the other side.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Wait, so Juliette is not whatsisname's girlfriend from the very end of last season? Who gave him the boat or whatever?

(agreed that I wish we see other people in this episode - Locke? Jun?)

PS Was Jack talking to someone "we know" when he was calling his wife's cell phone contacts?


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Hmmm - could be!


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

If I was her, I'd be a little pissy that Henry slammed the door in my face as the water was rising.....


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Except we now know his name is Ben not Henry.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> If I was her, I'd be a little pissy that Henry slammed the door in my face as the water was rising.....


You mean Ben.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Yeah, I typed that and hit enter as she called him Ben....sorry


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## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

WOW! 
I had to replay the open again just to make sure I was seeing it correctly. 

We know they have their own little community. 
They have access to boats. 
They have internet access. ( all the info about Jack ) 

Juliette doesn't like Henry Gale / Ben 

Great start to the season.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Yeah, I typed that and hit enter as she called him Ben....sorry




We're just being silly.

So I'm thoroughly confused, which is to be expected. Liked the contraption Sawyer was in, and the comment about the bears only needing 2 hours.

I'm scared about what Benry told Kate -- the next 2 weeks are going to be rough...


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> Wait, so Juliette is not whatsisname's girlfriend from the very end of last season? Who gave him the boat or whatever?
> 
> (agreed that I wish we see other people in this episode - Locke? Jun?)
> 
> PS Was Jack talking to someone "we know" when he was calling his wife's cell phone contacts?


Desmond. No wait. That was Libby that gave him the boat. But it _could_ be his x wife. The one his father in-law paid him to leave.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Why would Jack believe anything the jailor says? The others have been nothing but deceptive the whole time they have been visible to the survivors.

Before Jack made his escape attempt I was saying (aloud) that the first time that door opens he should take advantage of that. Too bad he didn't listen to Henry.

We still don't know the why.

The plane crashes. Henry starts barking orders to Ethan et. al. but we don't know the why. The why is always the key. It is sometimes much more important than the how.

They kept the island bears in the cages that Sawyer and Kate are in now?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I'm scared about what Henry told Kate -- the next 2 weeks are going to be rough...


I would assume that meant that they were going to try to break / brainwash her. Perhaps Sawyer as well. Obviously they'll just messing with all of their brains.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> Wait, so Juliette is not whatsisname's girlfriend from the very end of last season? Who gave him the boat or whatever?
> 
> (agreed that I wish we see other people in this episode - Locke? Jun?)
> 
> PS Was Jack talking to someone "we know" when he was calling his wife's cell phone contacts?


Penelope was Desmond's girl, Libby gave him the boat. This dame appears to be a new quantity.


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## packerfan (Jan 8, 2002)

I hate this show. Why do I keep watching? I don't think the writers have any idea where they are going with this show.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Also, there's no way they'd be able to shut that door with the water pressure rushing in from the other side.


Why not? Shut the door the water was coming through? Of course not? However, a single door is only going to allow so much water through at a given pressure. The flow of that water, and thus it's pressure, then gets disbursed throughout the entire cavity of the area it's flowing into (the hallways, at least one room, and who knows what else). The water pressure at the inner door would be significantly lower than the outer door....close to negligible.

Now, once the inner door is closed, and the water level inside and outside start to become inequal, then pressure will begin building up. They'd only have a short period of time to lock the door before the pressure differential became to great. How short of time would depend on the rate of flow as well as the volume of the corridor.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> The plane crashes. Henry starts barking orders to Ethan et. al.


At it looked like Ethan & Goodwin ran off on foot. That would be way too far for them to make it in any reasonable time, and their village didn't really look to be anywhere near the water. Didn't Anna say Goodwin came running out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash? Or am I getting him mixed up with the guy Anna thought was the spy?


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## Martha (Oct 6, 2002)

packerfan said:


> I hate this show. Why do I keep watching? I don't think the writers have any idea where they are going with this show.


+1

Yet, like a train wreck, I can't look away.


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## thudtrain (Sep 29, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> At it looked like Ethan & Goodwin ran off on foot. That would be way too far for them to make it in any reasonable time, and their village didn't really look to be anywhere near the water. Didn't Anna say Goodwin came running out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash? Or am I getting him mixed up with the guy Anna thought was the spy?


Well Benry (thanks UNCDrew!) did specifically tell Goodwin that he can make it to that shore in an hour if he runs


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Benry


Awesome! Now I will actually be able to keep it straight.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

It was a nice beginning. Unfortunately after that it became tiring very quickly; all that's happened is we've exchanged one mystery for another. And for no apparent reason other than they were getting close to discovering too much about the prior mystery. Meh. I paused the thing about 25 minutes into it and moved on to better programs. I'm not all that sure I care enough to endure this pathetic attempt at maintaing viewer interest through setting up one mystery after another.

I have to agree with packerfan; I seriously doubt there's any sort of detail path the writers know about; they're driving by the seat of their pants and it's just becoming one ridiculous story after another now.


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## mojomom (Oct 6, 2005)

Cool epsiode. I saw 2 separate articles, Jeff Jensen on EW.com

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,1541620_3||1045714|0_0_,00.html

and Michael Ausellio of TV Guide

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx?columndate=04-Oct-2006

that both said that Julie Bowen/Sarah had to deliver one of the best/saddest Lost lines ever.

Call me extremely exhausted, but which line were they referring to?

I am really psyched for the new season. Thank goodness for TiVO with this show!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danieljanderson said:


> They have internet access. (all the info about Jack)


No way did they get a copy of Dad's autopsy report over the internet...


packerfan said:


> I hate this show. Why do I keep watching? I don't think the writers have any idea where they are going with this show.


That does not seem to be the case. Not only have Abrams and Lindelof said that they have a five-year plan (and have had it since the initial pitchmeeting), but a lot of the people on the show are comic book people, and comic book writer Mark Millar says that he has heard the entire plan from them. So while they are obviously filling in details along the way (the way they handled the revelation of the hatch was reportedly improvised), they do seem to be headed towards a specific ending, one that they've planned all along.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No way did they get a copy of Dad's autopsy report over the internet...


But if they had the right contacts, it could have been sent to them through the Internet...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

danieljanderson said:


> Juliette doesn't like Henry Gale / Ben


Yes, that would seem to be true. Also, we didn't really pick it up at the beginning, because we didn't know his name was Ben yet, but rewatching their book club meeting they were talking about how Julie selected a book that Ben wouldn't like, and she made that comment about "and here I am thinking that freewill still actually exists on..." (this island?).

Also, about that meeting...did anyone with HD catch what book they were actually reading?

Finally, when they all ran outside, it seemed as if everyone was looking up at the sky before the plane even came into sight. And how quick Benry reacted, sending out Ethan and Goodwin, it would seem they've been through this exercise a few times before.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Todd said:


> But if they had the right contacts, it could have been sent to them through the Internet...


But such contacts are far more extensive (and impressive) than simply having an internet connection.


LordKronos said:


> Also, about that meeting...did anyone with HD catch what book they were actually reading?


Steven King's Carrie.


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## mojomom (Oct 6, 2005)

By the way, which Stephen King book were they reading? The Stand?

I couldn't see the cover but based on the story being about post-disaster survival/religious cult, etc. that would seem appropriate. It's the only Stephen King book I know that is anyone's "favorite book."


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

mojomom said:


> Call me extremely exhausted, but which line were they referring to?


I'd venture a guess it was the "It doesn't matter" (or whatever the exact dialogue was) reply when Jack asked  at the lawyers' office  about "Who _he_ is."

Or the "You have something to fix now" line...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

It was a Stephen King book, right?


Made me think of the Langoliers, but only because it had an airplane in it and it's one of only a few of his books that I've read.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But such contacts are far more extensive (and impressive) than simply having an internet connection.


Yeah, when she said they had the report I paused to say "whoa".

Huh, do I think I'm Joey Lawrence now?


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

I love this show. The closer you seem to be getting to the truth, the further away it seems to recede. Kind of like one of those surreal dreams where you're running down a corridor and can't seem to get anywhere. I like the idea that resolving each mystery doesn't bring the show any closer to ending, but in fact reveals a new, fresh mystery.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

The book may have been Carrie, I think
http://www.stephenkingshop.com/covers/carrie.htm

You can see a book with a red and white cover in the black woman's hands, then the white on blue author name on the hard cover in Julie's hands.

/edit Unintentional smeek, was looking for cover images while Rob was posting


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## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

I think the sad line must have been the one about how it didn't matter who he (the other guy) was, but that it mattered who Jack wasn't.

Something like that.

"It doesn't matter who he is. It matters who you're not."

Maybe.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Its a good thing I have Tivo the commercial breaks were every 8 minutes.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I enjoyed the season opener and found lots about it to be intrigued about. 

So the cages they put Sawyer in was where they kept the polar bears? and how did the polar bears escape? Was Sawyer munching on a biscuit that had been sitting there for years? No wonder he threw it at Freckles! : )

I am wondering who the actress that played Juliette is? I feel like I have seen her in something lately...but can't figure out what.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gonzotek said:


> The book may have been Carrie, I think
> http://www.stephenkingshop.com/covers/carrie.htm
> 
> You can see a book with a red and white cover in the black woman's hands, then the white on blue author name on the hard cover in Julie's hands.


Well, it was a one-word title ending in "rrie," so I will go out on a limb and say that you (and I, earlier) are correct!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

It was definitely Carrie:

http://www.pbase.com/ldkronos/image/68035432
http://www.pbase.com/ldkronos/image/68035431


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Did anyone else get the impression that they guy working under Julie's house was her boyfriend/husband or something? I notice now that, after the earthquake, you can see it was Ethan that climbed out from under there.

EDIT: Nevermind...I initially got the wrong impression for some odd reason, and on rewatching it theres nothing to suggest that. Not sure why I thought that.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I think I need to watch this episode again to catch all that was going on. Thats what I really like about this show! I can watch it over and over and still see new things.


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## TheDewAddict (Aug 21, 2002)

betts4 said:


> I am wondering who the actress that played Juliette is? I feel like I have seen her in something lately...but can't figure out what.


Her name is Juliet evidently, and she's played by Elizabeth Mitchell


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Juliet was on ER. She was the lesbian social worker. Also she was Mrs. Claus/The Principal on The Santa Clause 2. 

I think there is a bit more history between Juliet and Ben. More than just she doesn't like him. At the beginning she was crying, like maybe she just broke up with someone(?), plus, when the book club member mentioned that Ben wasn't there, she became angry, and then, when Ben saw the book in her hand, he said something like"So I guess I'm not in your book club anymore?" To me that meant he wasn't invited, and not that he chose not to go because of the choice of book. 

When Jack threatened to kill Juliet, and Ben said "okay," she seemed hurt that he would let her be killed. Her reaction seemed pretty normal, but if she was his ex-lover, it makes even more sense.

...Of course I could be totally off base.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Another awesome season opener! :up:

Couple of observations.

It has been stated, but I'll repeat it: Juliet is not Desmond's girlfriend (who, we find in last season's finale, is looking for him, and is wealthy as heck). She's a new character. She does resemble her, somewhat.

However, IMHO, Juliet bears a VERY strong resemblance to Jack's ex wife. I wonder if that's why she was picked to interface with him.

So, the "others" have a very modern village that's a one hour's "run" from the lostaway's camp? And they haven't stumbled upon if with all the exploring they have done? This cannot simply be a plot hole. We're going to find that the losties have been "misdirected" somehow so as to never stumble upon the others who are so close.

Internet access? Heck, looks like they have _full_ access to the outside world. Modern technology, new clothing, information, etc.

Looking forward to next week!


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## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

Was Mr. Friendly the patient Jack was attending when the nurse asked if the patient was ready to take his own meds?


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## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

SNJpage1 said:


> Its a good thing I have Tivo the commercial breaks were every 8 minutes.


I too thought they seem to milk the commercials a lil too often.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

thudtrain said:


> Well Benry (thanks UNCDrew!) did specifically tell Goodwin that he can make it to that shore in an hour if he runs


1) After reviewing the beginning of this episode, that's a LONG run to make in an hour

2) After reviewing "The Other 48 Days", I was correct....Anna DID say "You ran out of the jungle 10 minutes after the crash".


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> So, the "others" have a very modern village that's a one hour's "run" from the lostaway's camp?


No, they were an hours run (or 10 minutes  ) away from the tail section. The nose seemed to crash much further across the island, and Ben didn't specifically say how soon Ethan could make it.

http://www.pbase.com/ldkronos/image/68036660


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## Frank_M (Sep 9, 2001)

They had all the modern conveniences, yes... but still.... I think... no children, right? When they all came running out of the houses, I don't think I saw any children. I did see a gazebo, which was the only non-house structure that I noticed. Have to watch again to see if those things are true. Hopefullly someone can confirm/deny those facts.

I wonder... did this group EVER have children? Or were some of the characters we've met raised on the island from children... but now something on the island (the electromagnetic fields?) made them barren? When they were dressing Kate up, and had Sawyer in a cage... I almost felt like they were preparing to breed them in captivity.

And for those who didn't like it... from what I understand, these first six episodes are meant to be seen as one story. So you're 1/6th of the way through it, hang in there!

I did comment to my wife that this was a tough season premiere for someone who'd not watched the first two seasons and tried to watch tonight to see what all the fuss is about.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

And where are the children they kidnapped?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

A thought:

Juliet told Jack that if he didn't eat and drink, the drugs they gave him would cause severe dehydration accompanied by hallucinations.

Could it be that the others have been periodically slipping mickeys to the losties all along?

That would explain:


Jack's seeing his father.
The "whispers", which always seem to be "echos from the past" for whatever character hears them.
Some or all of the "monster" sightings. Especially when Eko saw flashes from his past in the "smoke".
The Walt sightings.

The crackling voice that Jack (thought he) heard on the (non functioning?) intercom was very much like the "whispers in the jungle" in that they contained "echos from his past" in what they said.

Was Juliet being straight with him that the intercom was totally non-functional? Or, were the others, who clearly know lots of details about his past, messing with his head? Are the "whispers" hallucinations or the others messing with the losties?


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Perhaps _the line_ was Sarah telling Jack that his father was so drunk she could barely understand him. The unspoken line being "nice job pushing your father off the wagon."


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> No, they were an hours run (or 10 minutes  ) away from the tail section. The nose seemed to crash much further across the island, and Ben didn't specifically say how soon Ethan could make it.
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/ldkronos/image/68036660


Hmm. You are correct. I just re-watched that part.

Still, it surely took Ethan no more than a day to reach the fuselage section camp. So, they are somehow still doing one heck of a job keeping their "village" hidden! (From the "fusies" as well as the "tailies" for the first 40 days after the crash!)

Another somewhat related point:

I think we now have evidence that the others were somehow "behind" the crash.

While the crash seemed to surprise them somewhat, they were clearly *absolutely certain that there would be survivors!* Their "spies" were instructed to blend in with the survivers.

Any normal person seeing such a crash would tend to assume it was not survivable, and that there would be *no survivors!* Yet, the others seemed to be positive there would be survivors. Strong evidence that they, at least, understood the _mechanism_ of the crash (that is, they knew something about the cause) and knew it would be survivable.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

MacThor said:


> Perhaps _the line_ was Sarah telling Jack that his father was so drunk she could barely understand him. The unspoken line being "nice job pushing your father off the wagon."


That's what I was thinking. Especially knowing now that his falling off the wagon eventually killed him.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

So the underwater station is called the Hydra, and has something like an octopus or squid in the center of the logo (someone with HD will correct me). And the station that Sawyer and Kate are at also had a logo, but I couldn't make it out.

And Jack! Lights punched out by Juliet! KO in the 1st Round!

And the saddest line to me was Sarah telling Jack that when his father called her she could barely understand him because he was so drunk. You knew right then and there that his father lost his battle with alcohol right at that moment - after 50 days of sobriety - and wound up losing his life. And Jack went to Australia to get him, and wound up on a plane.

Nah - it was probably the "Guess I'm not in the book club anymore" line ... 

The low-blow line was "Now you have something else to fix." Ouch. And so true.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Perhaps _the line_ was Sarah telling Jack that his father was so drunk she could barely understand him. The unspoken line being "nice job pushing your father off the wagon."


That fact definately did seem to upset Jack. Knowing that his father had been sober for 50 days.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

So, they show that crossword puzzle in Jack's car at the beginning, and I say to my husband, "The Tivocommunity will be all over this."

Wrong.

Where's the screen cap?

Some words/phrases I noticed (okay, we paused a few seconds):

atom
vital statistics
necessary evil
O'Toole
raft
must
goth

(okay, j/k on that last one)

Noticed several others, but can't recall off hand.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

I don't think the Others had anything to do with the crash ... that's on Desmond. But you're right, they definitely assumed there would be survivors (and as Sayid said "We shouldn't have survived"), and acted like they'd seen it all before. A "normal" reaction to a plane crash would be to send rescue parties toward the crash site(s) to *help* possible survivors.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rob is right, they have a five-year plan. JJ has also emphatically said they have Season 3 all planned out including the cliffhangers in episode 6 and the season finale. So they're not making it up as they go along.

I noticed that Harold Perrineau is no longer in the credits.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Not sure how I felt about this episode. It was good, but I was left irritated. I was I had the strength to let the episodes stack up and then watch them all at once. I think I'd like that more.

tk


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## skanter (May 28, 2003)

The episode was OK until one of the closing lines: Jack is asked if he wants to know anything in the "book". I thought to myself, "I hope he doesn't ask "is she happy"?

He did.  Trite! :down:


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

rufus_x_s said:


> I think the sad line must have been the one about how it didn't matter who he (the other guy) was, but that it mattered who Jack wasn't.
> 
> Something like that.
> 
> ...


I thought her remark was a bit more pointed. Something like...

"It doesn't matter who he _is_ - what matters is who you _are_."

I may not be quoting it correctly but it's the general idea of what I recall. Same type of remark but more biting. It spoke to Jack's obsessive need to control - who he was at his essence.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

dswallow said:


> It was a nice beginning. Unfortunately after that it became tiring very quickly; all that's happened is we've exchanged one mystery for another.


I agree 100%.

It started out great in my opinion, then they were just drawing things out for the sake of drawing them out.


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## mohler7154 (Mar 7, 2005)

I read all the posts and didnt see anything about this, but did anyone else take notice the similarities between this episode and the season 2 opener. Both started with a closeup of an eye and loud music playing.


It was similar enough to make me think it was the same song, but on second listen realized it was not.

"Make Your Own Kind of Music" - Mama Cass in the second season
"Downtown" - B-52s this season


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## Chandler Mike (Mar 29, 2002)

MacThor said:


> I don't think the Others had anything to do with the crash ... that's on Desmond. But you're right, they definitely assumed there would be survivors (and as Sayid said "We shouldn't have survived"), and acted like they'd seen it all before. A "normal" reaction to a plane crash would be to send rescue parties toward the crash site(s) to *help* possible survivors.


I thought the same thing...if anything, the Others had NO idea about the crash, they just knew what to do with any survivors...

They obviously have had others come to the Island, and have done experiments on them...so when they saw the plane crash, Benry knew how to act quickly.


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> At it looked like Ethan & Goodwin ran off on foot. That would be way too far for them to make it in any reasonable time, and their village didn't really look to be anywhere near the water.


This just made me realize something else... think back to the pilot...

1) In the pilot episode, Jack woke up SOMEWHERE AWAY from the crash site on the beach. He ran for an indeterminate time to get to the crash site.

2) We didn't see Kate at the crash site during the initial scenes. She only surfaced shortly afterwards (assisting Jack with the stitches).

3) Sawyer wasn't at the crash site initially. He surfaced shortly after to start rummaging for materials.

Sure, we know they were on the plane, but we don't know how long the plane had been crashed by the time we joined them - nor what happened in that time. Remember, we're (we as the viewer) still a little foggy on what happened from the time the plane started breaking up - to the time that Jack (or Ana Lucia) regained consciousness.

I'm still thinking there's something to Henry Gale's (Ben's) line "We're the good guys."


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## mhalver (Nov 3, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No way did they get a copy of Dad's autopsy report over the internet...
> 
> That does not seem to be the case. Not only have Abrams and Lindelof said that they have a five-year plan (and have had it since the initial pitchmeeting), but a lot of the people on the show are comic book people, and comic book writer Mark Millar says that he has heard the entire plan from them. So while they are obviously filling in details along the way (the way they handled the revelation of the hatch was reportedly improvised), they do seem to be headed towards a specific ending, one that they've planned all along.


They've said that they know where they are ultimately going to end up, but don't know exactly how they are going to get there. They are expanding and contracting storylines based on fan reaction. The numbers were not supposed to be that big, but fans liked them and the others were supposed to be minor characters, but again fans responded to them.


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## DaveyG (Oct 16, 2003)

I'll just add 2 discussion points:

1) What's up with the kid in the other cage? (I forget what his name was)

2) Benry requested Stephen King books last season when he was captured by the Losties


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## speaker city (Sep 28, 2005)

The first thing I noticed was the old song that Jack was listening to when he was sitting in his car at the beginning. It was the same song that Sayid and Hurley listened to on the beach through Sayid's radio. 

I missed the crossowrd puzzle. 

I know I noticed other connections to previous episodes, I guess I need to watch the episode again.

And what was up with the kid in the cage??


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## xuxa (Oct 8, 2001)

the kid's name was Carl


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> However, IMHO, Juliet bears a VERY strong resemblance to Jack's ex wife.  I wonder if that's why she was picked to interface with him.
> 
> So, the "others" have a very modern village that's a one hour's "run" from the lostaway's camp? And they haven't stumbled upon if with all the exploring they have done? This cannot simply be a plot hole. We're going to find that the losties have been "misdirected" somehow so as to never stumble upon the others who are so close.


I am now refering to the group's village as "The Village". All we need to do is pin the number 6 on Jack and we'll be set.
(And is the black smoke Rover?)

I do believe that Juliet was picked to question Jack because of her resemblence to Sarah.

And the fact that they have a communications link to the outside world is very interesting.



mohler7154 said:


> "Make Your Own Kind of Music" - Mama Cass in the second season
> "Downtown" - B-52s this season


I didn't know that Downtown was on the Talking Heads "Speaking in Tongues" CD.


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

If you all are looking for an important line from the episode, I think we have to consider when Juliet said, "It doesn't matter who we were, what matters is who we are."

And keep in mind how similar that is to Sarah's parting words to Jack, "It doesn't matter who he is, what matters is who you're not."


----------



## DaveyG (Oct 16, 2003)

Oh yeah, and...

3) The abrasions on Kate's wrists suggest quite a bit of struggle


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Another somewhat related point:
> 
> I think we now have evidence that the others were somehow "behind" the crash.
> 
> While the crash seemed to surprise them somewhat, they were clearly *absolutely certain that there would be survivors!*


Benry: "Ethan, get up there to that fuselage. There may actually be survivors."


----------



## curiousgeorge (Nov 28, 2002)

speaker city said:


> The first thing I noticed was the old song that Jack was listening to when he was sitting in his car at the beginning. It was the same song that Sayid and Hurley listened to on the beach through Sayid's radio.
> 
> I missed the crossowrd puzzle.
> 
> ...


My son and I both got the vibe that the kid was one of the Others and there as a misdirection by them. He was pretending to be caught, pretending to escape and help Sawyer so Sawyer could see that escape was "impossible" and that if he tried, he would be punished/killed. The kid's roughing up could have been makeup - they've done it before.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Delta13 said:


> So the underwater station is called the Hydra, and has something like an octopus or squid in the center of the logo (someone with HD will correct me). And the station that Sawyer and Kate are at also had a logo, but I couldn't make it out.


I think they're the same

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=689

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=174


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> So, they show that crossword puzzle in Jack's car at the beginning, and I say to my husband, "The Tivocommunity will be all over this."
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> ...


http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=90


----------



## chris0 (Jul 13, 2006)

mohler7154 said:


> I read all the posts and didnt see anything about this, but did anyone else take notice the similarities between this episode and the season 2 opener. Both started with a closeup of an eye and loud music playing.
> 
> It was similar enough to make me think it was the same song, but on second listen realized it was not.
> 
> ...


"downtown" was sung by Petula Clark. (thank you "Seinfeld.")

and yes, the beginnings were quite similar. I liked that.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> It has been stated, but I'll repeat it: Juliet is not Desmond's girlfriend (who, we find in last season's finale, is looking for him, and is wealthy as heck). She's a new character. She does resemble her, somewhat.
> 
> However, IMHO, Juliet bears a VERY strong resemblance to Jack's ex wife. I wonder if that's why she was picked to interface with him.


Sorry to pick on you twice, Fish Man. 

I thought Juliet looked much more like Penny. (Pictured here in the finale last season.)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Phew! A summer of waiting is over. Great episode.

Was very glad we started out with an eye closeup.  I always worry about writers dropping something like that that they've done in earlier seasons and just letting it go. For the record, if someone's searching someday, it was her left eye (her left.. it was on the right side of her face from our point of view looking at her).

Ok, some random notes (not supposed to be relevant):

1) on the CD rack, the only readable CD was titled "self-sufficient", which I imagine this group of people must be, there on an island..

2) When she grabs a CD, the case is Speaking in Tongues by the Talking Heads (the cover art for the case matches up too), but that's not the music played. The cd is blank except for the inner ring label reading "JN 94743 A".. The song that plays though is Downtown by Petula Clark.

Side note: When looking for the mp3 online I found a version of her singing Downtown in German, which for some reason I found funny to listen to:
http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/KG/06_Petula_Clark.mp3

When they did the book club, they actually had at least 3 different prints/covers of Carrie that looked different - I thought that was a nice touch, rather than just having the props guy buy 6+ copies of the same thing from Amazon.

For a good portion of the episode I thought Juliette was Desmond's Penny.. I too thought (as was said above) that she was picked to do Jack's breakdown because she looked like Sara(h?). At the end, when she got Jack to eat, the "Thank you" clearly confirmed (to me anyway) that that's what she was supposed to be in there to do - break him - and that she'd just succeeded.

Found it very funny watching Sawyer trying to solve that puzzle.. Even funnier hearing Mr. Friendly say "Hey.. you got a fish biscuit!"

(Watching again as I type some of this)..

Now I wonder if the reason she's reacting to hearing Downtown playing is because A) it's her and someone else's "song" and she's broken up with them now (Ben?), or B) she misses the city, and the song reminded her that she's stuck there, away from the busy city life.

I love that for TWO SEASONS IN A ROW they've tricked us into thinking we were starting on a flashback outside the island, just to find that we're actually there.

There's an old woman (wearing a neckerchief?) in their little town? (at the book club) What's the deal w/that? How'd she get there? Why is she still there?

Oh wow, hadn't noticed this.. during the book club scene, is the black woman to the right of "Adam" Miss Clue(sp?) from Season 2, who had asked all the questions of Michael about Walt? That should have given that scene away..

His attack on Carrie.. that it was "popcorn.. by the numbers religious hokum pokum.. science fiction".. I wonder if that's supposed to be a play on what some people think Lost was after viewing a few episodes from the first season (scifi being the creature and black smoke, and the religious comments about the whole man-of-science/faith storyline)..

Interesting seeing that Desmond's lateness in pressing the button actually caused an earthquake on the island.. (pretty far away too). It wasn't quite as bad in the hatch..

Ok.. after the earthquake, everyone comes outside, and they're _all looking up_.. (well, at least Benry is). There's a strange sound as they watch the plane, and a thick black smoke behind the plane as it comes in (before crashing). I wonder if that's "black smoke" (nanotech/whatever that Eko/Locke? saw) slowly lowering the pieces of the plane down to some "safe" height off the water so people could live..

Jack shouldn't have been suspecting his father.. he'd been stalking her outside of the school and saw the guy she was with.. (that is, if we're to believe these flashbacks are in order, and that that was a flashback and not just purely a dream).

I was glad it was glass and not a force field that Jack was behind.

Mr. Friendly's forehead actually still looks fake.. Maybe it's just the actor's head.. his eyebrows are too dark.

Jack's history with his wife would make it really really suck for him if he hooked up w/Kate and then she went for Sawyer......

Jack has now asked "Do you think I'm stupid?!!?" at least a few times.. Someday someone's going to say yes.

The dress reminded me of every preview for Alias that showed Syndey kicking high.. gotta get them ratings! Now, mind you, I'm not complaining.....

The handcuffs at the table were a nice touch.. Custom made for her, really.. Did we see what caused the damage to her wrists? Was it just supposed to be them dragging her off the beach and her struggling in handcuffs, or was it implied she'd had some other "activity" that we didn't see? Friendly said "They scratched you up pretty good, didn't they?"

When Juliette told him the rules for getting food, and he eventually agreed and went up against the wall, I thought back to the Star Trek Next Generation episode where Data was kidnapped, and Fajo has a door locked so Data can't get out.. One time when he hears the door open, he looks like he's about to sprint into a sprint to run across the room to get out, but gives up the idea a second or so later.. Jack did what I wanted Data to do in that episode. Very cool.

"I'm a people person, so I really love it!"

Question: When she originally starts questioning Jack, does she already know that he's a doctor and that his dad is dead, and then says "I'm sorry" and looks surprised as part of a lie? Or does she get from that conversation that his dad is dead, then later goes to look up any incidents with coffins on the plane, backtracking to who Jack is, then digging up info on him later? Originally I thought they knew everything beforehand, but it doesn't make as much sense why she'd pretend not to know his dad was dead (except maybe to win his trust - which she then later crushes by saying she knows all about him.. so I don't get it).

So, right after being w/Jack in the underwater station, in the next scene she's on land to tazer Sawyer. Is that just some timelapse between scenes, or is there something fishy going on? (I refuse to believe she's got a twin, let alone one wearing the same red & white shirt..  )

For reference, Carl was the name of the kid in the cell across from Sawyer.

Yeah, I was originally thinking the same as was initially said - no way in hell they're closing that door.. Now that I see it's a later internal door, maaaybe the two of them could close it.. eh..

The more that I think about it, the more that I now like that we only saw these three of the main cast.. If other stories were stuck in, this'd be watered down.. I don't mind a Charlie/Claire scene now and then, but not in the middle of this stuff.

When Jack asked if they're all that's left over from Dharma and Juliette said "It doesn't matter who we were.. it only matters who we are", I wonder if it was her talking to Jack, or the writers talking to us. If it's just the writers telling us to forget about Dharma etc, then eh.. at least they addressed the fact that they'll steer away from those details, instead of just not mentioning the stuff and letting it drift off into nowhere like Rhambaldi for a season or so on Alias. But hopefully it was just her telling that to Jack, and there's still far more around that ties into the story.. Either stuff she's hiding, or doesn't know about, etc.

The cop that let Jack out of jail looks slightly familiar, but I'm not really sure about that.

And lastly, her having a printout of "his life" once again would make a great scene for a series of "we gave you hints!" clips if it ever turns out they WERE going for the purgatory route despite all the denials.. 

Looking forward to more!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Oh yeah.. and I expected there to be like 8 pages by now....


----------



## PhantomDilbert (Nov 6, 2005)

Very good episode. I wish I had the will power to wait a few weeks and watch em all at once.

This show may make me invest in a series 3...watched it live in hdtv. Watching replay in analog...boooo.

9/10....

best episode of the season

=)


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Almost forgot..

Downtown was sung by Petula Clark, but was _written_ by Tony *Hatch*.


----------



## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Mr. Friendly to Kate: "You're not my type."

Gay?


----------



## krymaney (Sep 19, 2002)

/full conjecture mode on.

The Others are minding their own business, going about their lives after Dharma project ended. They are now living in the abandoned projects 'little community' that was once occupied by the original scientists. *referred to as a long time ago by Jack's interrorgator*.

They kidnap children, because children are typically easier to influence and *intergrate* into an already existing community/society. They need children to keep the gene pool fresh and young as they are no longer able to bear children as a side effect of the strong electro-magnetism *thus the reason everyone has had their blood drawn, to check for DNA similarities, ie: rule out cross-breeding problems*

They have been studying and watching the Losties through The Hatch's video/audio feeds, keeping notes all the while. Benry instructed them they needed lists within three days. IE: find the strong leaders/opposing personalities. Those people that will not be willing or able to integrate into our existing society that we have developed over the years. Find those that are also violent. Seperate them from each other.

That is why the Tailies were abducted first, they were closer to The OtherCommune, and whisked away to be brainwashed/broken/integrated.

Now they have all but eliminated the Tailies, integrating those they could, moved onto the Losties.

They very carefully chose who they wanted for Michael to follow back to their SecondVillage. Jack, shown to be a leader and willing to do ANYTHING. Kate, strong willed woman whom Jack and Sawyer are in Lust with. Sawyer, entrepeneur, thinks on his feet, able to sustain a bullet wound with little medical help, tough cookie. Hurley, mister nice guy, likeable enough for the Losties to listen to, not a threat.

Abduct the three, break them each, one by one in their own little way. Sawyer is shown a Otherite Kid, and shown escape is impossible, give up and give in. Oh, and get a reward for doing what we want, broken down slowly, with his weakness inches away in the end. Kate, given back her girliness, so as not to completely alienate her, because she needs a softer touch to break. When she feels backed into a corner, she goes into defensive mode. Remind her she's a girl, before you break her down. Jack, intelligent, doctor, leader, fighter. Patience and his weakness *women* to break him down by getting him to do what you want first. 

I think every bit of it is a setup to break them down first before attempting to integrate them into the existing society. Take out the leaders, the rest of the Losties will fall. I even think that Michael was sent to kill Ana Lucia because of revenge. Justice here is fast and swift, to not break the delicate balance of a self-sustaining, limited resource society that is also stuck.

Even the huge packet of information on Jack was not from some outside source. It was from the hours of conversation that Jack had in The Hatch and around camp. Maybe the ObservationHatch was used for that. 

They've been down this road before, those that are able to be brought into the fold are kept around, those that are not are 'gotten rid of'

The escapes, the information, the capture of Benry Bale, all calculated, precise, carefully laid out plan from the practice of years spent isolated *and maybe info passed down from generation to generation*

---discuss---


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

PhantomDilbert said:


> Very good episode. I wish I had the will power to wait a few weeks and watch em all at once.
> 
> This show may make me invest in a series 3...watched it live in hdtv. Watching replay in analog...boooo.
> 
> ...


Yeah, dive in, the Series 3 is pretty damned sweet.. Pausing HD Lost and rewinding to individual frames.. soooo nice.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I loved this episode because it was a great start of something new and continuation of the old at the same time, but there wasn't much to discuss, IMO.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ok, this was totally unrelated, but I felt the need to post it..

When looking up Downtown and seeing other songs by Petula Clark, I saw the title "Don't Sleep in the Subway". I knew I'd heard the title.. I could even imagine the notes that would go along with those words in the song, and when I downloaded it, sure enough they were close.. (but this time sung by a woman with a nice voice, as opposed to some buried memory I had where it was sung in jest by a man).

Couldn't remember it for the life of me.. thought it was from some SNL sketch that they'd referenced it, but no. Then I found it, and was very satisfied once I saw what it was (because I did indeed know the title, I wasn't just dreaming it).

Anyone care to guess, or jump in if they actually know the reference I'm talking about?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> 2) When she grabs a CD, the case is Speaking in Tongues by the Talking Heads (the cover art for the case matches up too), but that's not the music played. The cd is blank except for the inner ring label reading "JN 94743 A".. The song that plays though is Downtown by Petula Clark.


This CD http://www.rwin.nl/sonvolt/details/74410.html has catalog number JN 94743 .


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, this was totally unrelated, but I felt the need to post it..
> 
> When looking up Downtown and seeing other songs by Petula Clark, I saw the title "Don't Sleep in the Subway". I knew I'd heard the title.. I could even imagine the notes that would go along with those words in the song, and when I downloaded it, sure enough they were close.. (but this time sung by a woman with a nice voice, as opposed to some buried memory I had where it was sung in jest by a man).
> 
> ...


[threadjack]There was a bizarre sketch on SNL that was Maya Rudolph and Tracy Morgan on a subway car dressed all 70s and I seem to remember that there was no dialogue just the two of them singing... More like a performance than a sketch.[/threadjack]

EDIT: After listening to it on iTunes, I don't think that was it.


----------



## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

This island is getting bigger and bigger each season. By season five the island will be as big as Hawaii and yet somehow still uncharted.  

Jack sure can't take a punch. He was unconcious so long that his clothes had time to dry. 


Overall I am just happy the season has started and I can feed my need again.


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

MacThor said:


> ... I noticed that Harold Perrineau is no longer in the credits.


That's the best news I've heard all day!


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

pendragn said:


> Not sure how I felt about this episode. It was good, but I was left irritated. I was I had the strength to let the episodes stack up and then watch them all at once. I think I'd like that more.
> 
> tk


... and with the unreasonable amount of commercials that ABC runs, I also wish I had the strength to wait for the DVDs


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

curiousgeorge said:


> My son and I both got the vibe that the kid was one of the Others and there as a misdirection by them. He was pretending to be caught, pretending to escape and help Sawyer so Sawyer could see that escape was "impossible" and that if he tried, he would be punished/killed. The kid's roughing up could have been makeup - they've done it before.


I thought the same thing.


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

atrac said:


> Mr. Friendly to Kate: "You're not my type."
> 
> Gay?


That's the only reason I could think of


----------



## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> ...
> For a good portion of the episode I thought Juliette was Desmond's Penny.. I too thought (as was said above) that she was picked to do Jack's breakdown because she looked like Sara(h?). At the end, when she got Jack to eat, the "Thank you" clearly confirmed (to me anyway) that that's what she was supposed to be in there to do - break him - and that she'd just succeeded.


I also thought Juliette was Penny. I'm bad with faces though...



> Found it very funny watching Sawyer trying to solve that puzzle.. Even funnier hearing Mr. Friendly say "Hey.. you got a fish biscuit!"


I think the insult is in line with what another poster mentioned about "breaking" Kate, Sawyer and what's-his-name 



> Oh wow, hadn't noticed this.. during the book club scene, is the black woman to the right of "Adam" Miss Clue(sp?) from Season 2, who had asked all the questions of Michael about Walt? That should have given that scene away..


It does appear to be her. I also didn't notice it until I saw a freeze frame on the net.



> His attack on Carrie.. that it was "popcorn.. by the numbers religious hokum pokum.. science fiction".. I wonder if that's supposed to be a play on what some people think Lost was after viewing a few episodes from the first season (scifi being the creature and black smoke, and the religious comments about the whole man-of-science/faith storyline)..


I think I remember hearing Cuse and Lendelof stating that they were Stephen King fans (on one of their official podcasts). The animated LOST logo, floating in space, in my opinion, is an homage to _The Twilight Zone_ . The reference to Stephen King books might be in the same vein. I'm a fan of both Stephen King books and _The Twilight Zone_, so I may be a bit biased...



> Jack shouldn't have been suspecting his father.. he'd been stalking her outside of the school and saw the guy she was with.. (that is, if we're to believe these flashbacks are in order, and that that was a flashback and not just purely a dream).


I agree. He shouldn't have thought this, but it goes to his child-like character.



> I was glad it was glass and not a force field that Jack was behind.


LOL 



> And lastly, her having a printout of "his life" once again would make a great scene for a series of "we gave you hints!" clips if it ever turns out they WERE going for the purgatory route despite all the denials..


Very interesting...my mother loves this theory 



> Looking forward to more!


Me too. It's a fun show!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Could it be that the others have been periodically slipping mickeys to the losties all along?
> 
> That would explain:
> 
> ...


Except that Walt was simultaneously seen by Sayid and Shannon, and the monster was simultaneously seen by a couple groups of people (Echo/Charlie, Jack/Locke/Kate/Charlie)


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Eash season has opened up with an "eyeball shot" of a NEW character. Jack in Season 1, Desmond in Season 2, and now Juliette in Season 3. She definitely is NOT Penelope. As well as ER, she also was in the short lived "The Lyon's Den".

Great opening scene. 

If they go back to the Beach next episode and gloss over the "explosion", I'll be really upset.


----------



## danieljanderson (Nov 19, 2002)

I hope we get a "The First 48 Days" for the Others.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

chris0 said:


> "downtown" was sung by Petula Clark. (thank you "Seinfeld.")
> 
> and yes, the beginnings were quite similar. I liked that.


I was gonna say: "B-52's??!!"

They did a cover, but that wasn't it!

Petula Clark. The "original".

I also noticed the similarity between this and the season 2 opener. The theme of a new character "starting their day" was similar. And the two songs definitely sound similar.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

hefe said:


> Sorry to pick on you twice, Fish Man.
> 
> I thought Juliet looked much more like Penny. (Pictured here in the finale last season.)


I did, in fact, mention that all three of them resemble each other.

Remember when we first saw the photo of Penny in the hatch there was a lot of speculation that it was Jack's ex.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

krymaney said:


> Even the huge packet of information on Jack was not from some outside source. It was from the hours of conversation that Jack had in The Hatch and around camp. Maybe the ObservationHatch was used for that.


Just a comment on this one (for now):

Not buying that.

The packet looked like a folder full of copies of different documents from different sources, different appearances, different fonts.

We know they had Jack's father's autopsy report. It looked like they had things like his marriage licence, divorce settlement. They probably had his college degrees, even birth certificate. At least, I think, we were supposed to get that impression.

In any case, that didn't look like a report someone in the other's group typed up, it was a collection of many different documents pertinent to Jack. There's no way he'd have had that many documents with him on the flight.

So...

They came from outside. Could have been sent electronically and printed out, but they came from outside. The "others" clearly not only have outside access, but have the ability to get confidential personal documents on people, apparently.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Maybe Kate was reunited with Sawyer AFTER the rough "two weeks" that Ben mentioned. Maybe she's already been "conditioned"--or they think she has been. Juliet's sudden appearance at Sawyer's escape showed that they were playing somewhat with the timeline. One thought I had was that the three Losties were kept unconscious until they were each needed in turn. This would explain the marks on their arms--that's where the IV was that administered the drugs that kept them comatose.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Post 108!


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Like many of you, I was somewhat underwhelmed by the episode - after the intro to the Others' community, that is. It dragged on a bit too long.

The best - and most telling - scenes were with Benry (heh love the monicker!) I'm very glad they added him as a regular to the cast. His breakfast on the beach with Kate was obviously to figure out who she liked best, presumably to use Kate to get whatever they wanted out of that person. So if Kate is the lever to get to Sawyer, presumably Juliet will be the lever to get to Jack. Although what they really want from Jack and Sawyer is anyone's guess....

The scenes with Benry in the aquarium and Juliet were also telling. Sure, he complemented her on "good work" at the end. But when Jack opened the hatch, he slammed the inner door shut very quickly, locking Juliet out. Taking this scene with the introduction scene of Juliet's comments in the book club, it looks like they're setting her up as the anti-Benry who may help our Losties.

BTW, they made a point of showing Kate and Jack peeling off the bandaids from where they'd had blood drawn. Did they show Sawyer's? If not, I wonder if they cut it or if they just didn't draw his blood.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

CROSSWORD PUZZLE

ACROSS
boff
oval
requiredco
esnemble
poe
boon (or boom)
essentialfal
otoole
clef
ar_
raft
sit
area
apt
uele
heroes
necessaryevils
must
ere
amebae
prenatal
vitalstatistics
_narl
ella
omea
_clky
teem
mest

DOWN
bore
oven
faqs

<Crap, didn't notice what time it was, have to go work!>


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Big_Daddy said:


> BTW, they made a point of showing Kate and Jack peeling off the bandaids from where they'd had blood drawn.


I guess I missed when they said that they drew blood... My Lost watching skills are a little rusty.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

They didn't say it. People have inferred it.


----------



## mojomom (Oct 6, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dswallow
It was a nice beginning. Unfortunately after that it became tiring very quickly; all that's happened is we've exchanged one mystery for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorlude

I agree 100%.

It started out great in my opinion, then they were just drawing things out for the sake of drawing them out.


*****

Hey critics, isn't that called.....storytelling? I thought the new perspective on The Others was great. Also, there has to be a connection between Juliet and Penelope somehow. With the early scene in the mirror, Juliet looked almost exactly like Pen.

And Penelope and Odysseus (Desmond, our "man of the world") are one great romantic couple from literature, so perhaps Juliet is Penelope's sister/mirror image, and surely there must be a Romeo somewhere.

Loved the chemistry with her and Jack in the extremely uneasy and untrustworthy situation.

*****

One more crazy idea, does anyone think the dolphins swimming outside the underwater hatch are communicating with Jack via the speaker or telepathically? You have dolphins and people experimenting with ESP. Now we have a man captured in an aquarium. Sooner or later those dots have to connect somehow.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Excellent episode!!!

Who will turn out to be Juliet's Romeo?

Anyone catch any possible Numbers? The only vague one I saw was the 4 pieces of sandwich with the tooth picks. Nothing obvious though.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

On Jack's pager in the Crossword puzzle shot. The time says 7:15:23. Two out of three ain't bad.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Great episode! Loved the opening scene....kind of surreal to see it all.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Rob is right, they have a five-year plan. JJ has also emphatically said they have Season 3 all planned out including the cliffhangers in episode 6 and the season finale. So they're not making it up as they go along.
> 
> I noticed that Harold Perrineau is no longer in the credits.


Yes, because like politicians, hollywood types never lie. 

I enjoy the show but I agree with "the others" that they are totally pulling it out of their ass as they go along.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

There's no way the kid in the other cage was not a plant. He got out way too easy and told Sawyer exactly where to go to get caught. 

So Mr. Friendly must be gay- what straight guy wouldn't have Kate as their "type"?

For some reason, the guy who was arguing about the book choice looked familiar, though at this point I don't know if it's from this show or another one...

Why would she be giving Jack a bottle of Dharma water if they are not important anymore?


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Someone else pointed it out, but I'm going to also say that every bit of information that Juliet said to Jack out of his "file" is information that they could have easily gotten from Ethan and the recordings of the hatch. I don't think they have all that. The "She is" answer about whether or not Julie Bowen is happy is delivered in a manner that is designed to be psychologically damaging, and I didn't believe Juliet actually knows that.

The other thing I wanted to comment on, that I was surprised no one said ... when Jack opened the door and allowed the rushing water to come in, did anyone else think that it first sounded like the smoke monster? "Open that and we're all dead." surely infers that the monster is behind the door ...


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

The kid in the other cage....

I was sure he was a plant until Mr. Friendly made him come back and apologize to Sawyer - at which time he looked pretty beaten up.

I've started wondering if the Others have a pretty high tolerance for severe corporal punishment in their youth, essentially beating people into submission. So the kid is one of them (or a survivor from the crash) who is misbehaving.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah, dive in, the Series 3 is pretty damned sweet.. Pausing HD Lost and rewinding to individual frames.. soooo nice.


:up: This was the best show to watch on an S3 so far ... I had to watch the plane break up frame by frame, that was cool. One interesting thing, it seemed a cargo or passenger door came off before anything else happened to the plane.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Wow, I thought it was a great. I like that we are seeing things from all angles, because each time they show us more, it makes us question everythign we have thought all along. At the first commercial break, my wife just said "Holy S---!"

As far as making it look like they were going to breed Sawyer and Kate in captivity, as soon as my wife saw the cages and after hearing the music (which was very Lost-y yet a little different) she though of the original Planet of the Apes. Even more so when they brought Kate out to the cage too.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> I did, in fact, mention that all three of them resemble each other.
> 
> Remember when we first saw the photo of Penny in the hatch there was a lot of speculation that it was Jack's ex.


Oh, I know. You said "somewhat resemble" for Penny, and "VERY strong resemblance" for Sarah. I'm just reversing that.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

atrac said:


> Mr. Friendly to Kate: "You're not my type."
> 
> Gay?


"A" positive?


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

If the purpose is to breed, why didn't they take two females and one male, instead of one female and two males? Did they get Sawyer for breeding purposes and Jack for doctoring purposes?

tk


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Yes, because like politicians, hollywood types never lie.
> 
> I enjoy the show but I agree with "the others" that they are totally pulling it out of their ass as they go along.


I don't see how you can say this. The keep back tracking and showing how things happened and where the other people were when it happened. This shows forethought in most of what has happened so far.

Also things said in previous episodes still popping up in current episodes shows there is some consistency as well. I doubt they have 3 seasons written out but I am sure they have an overall concept of what the whole story is and where it is going and how it will get there for the most part. Which characters that are there for it and all that is another story but you can't keep just making stuff up and keeping the story as tight as they have.


----------



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> We know they had Jack's father's autopsy report. It looked like they had things like his marriage licence, divorce settlement. They probably had his college degrees, even birth certificate.
> 
> They came from outside. Could have been sent electronically and printed out, but they came from outside. The "others" clearly not only have outside access, but have the ability to get confidential personal documents on people, apparently.


Or the Others just grabbed a bunch of papers, stuck them in a folder, and regurgitated what they knew about Jack via their surveillance.

Thought the episode was decent... obviously the beginning was particularly interesting. I may just wait the next six weeks and let the S3 grab the episodes and watch them over two night period without commercial interruption. My attention span is too short to wait week to week as they draw things out by introducing new mysteries.

Anyone got a HD closeup of his wife's boyfriend - is that guy connected in any way?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

NatasNJ said:


> I doubt they have 3 seasons written out but I am sure they have an overall concept of what the whole story is and where it is going and how it will get there for the most part. Which characters that are there for it and all that is another story but you can't keep just making stuff up and keeping the story as tight as they have.


The producers have said as much in the past. They likened it to driving from LA to Boston. (Or whatever cities they used.) They know where the destination is, but they can't accurately predict how long it will take to get there (or how long they will be given), or where they might stop along the way.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

NatasNJ said:


> I don't see how you can say this. The keep back tracking and showing how things happened and where the other people were when it happened. This shows forethought in most of what has happened so far.
> 
> Also things said in previous episodes still popping up in current episodes shows there is some consistency as well. I doubt they have 3 seasons written out but I am sure they have an overall concept of what the whole story is and where it is going and how it will get there for the most part. Which characters that are there for it and all that is another story but you can't keep just making stuff up and keeping the story as tight as they have.


Because in reality the story hasn't been that tight. They have kept it in a manner that they can pretty much veer off in any diriction that they want to at anytime. Yes they may have the final goal in mind, but I believe they are filling everything inbetween as they go along. I also believe there is a lot of pot involved in that process too.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

This episode made me realize that Lost is in a precarious position among my favorite shows. It along with battlestar galactica is going to have to work very hard to earn my interest again. I'm feeling very jerked around right now. Not just with the plot, but with the character development of Jack.

I started forming ideas in my mind about sterility and vaccinations against sterility, and then just decided not to speculate on the mystery anymore halfway through the show. That doesn't seem like a good thing.


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

MitchO said:


> Someone else pointed it out, but I'm going to also say that every bit of information that Juliet said to Jack out of his "file" is information that they could have easily gotten from Ethan and the recordings of the hatch.


Or from a drugged Jack...


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

BTW, I don't recall jack speaking much, if at all, about his wife. Am I wrong? Or are we assuming he did speak of those things, just not "on camera"?


----------



## spelcheker (Nov 5, 2002)

Hearing the German 'Downtown' in the earlier post reminded me of a story about that song that I read once, where they tried it in some other languages, and it was a big hit in all of them, but flopped in one. French.

I think the crossword puzzle was just a crossword puzzle from a local paper, thrown in because they knew crazies like us would try to derive meaning from it...

Or maybe the numbers on the pager refer to certain words on the puzzle???

Dangit, back to looking at the puzzle.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

PhantomDilbert said:


> This show may make me invest in a series 3...watched it live in hdtv. Watching replay in analog...boooo.


I'm having the exact same thoughts this morning! Plus I hate not being able to pause/rew.

Damn Lost may make me spent $1000!


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> I'm having the exact same thoughts this morning! Plus I hate not being able to pause/rew.
> 
> Damn Lost may make me spent $1000!


I had to take the plunge to the Cable company HD-DVR. It sure isn't Tivo, but I've been watching LOST recorded on HD for a year. And it costs $0 as opposed to $1000.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

The "others" in their village appear to have new clothes, well maintained houses, relatively contemporary technology (compared to the Darhma stations we have seen so far), etc.

This is all evidence that they have regular contact with the outside world. Therefore, it's my opinion that the file on Jack was real documents about him obtained from the outside world, and not a trick.

Last season, one of the names on Michael's "list" of who he was supposed to bring back was "James Ford". Michael had to ask, "Who's James Ford?", and was told, "You know him as 'Sawyer'".

I don't think Sawyer mentioned to _any_ of the lostaways what his real name was. We, the viewers, had learned it from the flashbacks but it seems to me that Sawyer would have been very unlikely to reveal his real name to anyone on the island.

I'd bet he was even traveling under his alias, meaning he would have been on the flight manifest as: " <some first name> Sawyer".

Yet the others knew his real name. So, they have a file on him too.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> The "others" in their village appear to have new clothes, well maintained houses, relatively contemporary technology (compared to the Darhma stations we have seen so far), etc.
> 
> This is all evidence that they have regular contact with the outside world. Therefore, it's my opinion that the file on Jack was real documents about him obtained from the outside world, and not a trick.
> 
> ...


He was on the manifest as James Ford. Remember that is how Locke knew his name. The Syndey police bought his plane ticket and they knew his name.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Figaro said:


> Yes they may have the final goal in mind, but I believe they are filling everything inbetween as they go along.


Of course they are. That's how *all *shows do it. Nobody writes 6 seasons of plot, episode and characters before they shoot the pilot. I'm not sure why there are people who want to criticize the show for not being written in its entirety already.

Plus, the implication of "as they go along" seems to be that week to week they don't know what is happening in the extreme short term. That isn't true. The producers have said that they never introduce a new element (like the hatch, for instance) unless they know how it will resolve.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Good line: "Are you a doctor?" "I'm a repowoman." Telling him the same lie he told her.

Maybe Ethan's real last name was Romeo?

Pretty sure Ana Lucia was payback for Goodwin. Perhaps the others don't yet know that Charlie killed Ethan.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> Of course they are. That's how *all *shows do it. Nobody writes 6 seasons of plot, episode and characters before they shoot the pilot. I'm not sure why there are people who want to criticize the show for not being written in its entirety already.
> 
> Plus, the implication of "as they go along" seems to be that week to week they don't know what is happening in the extreme short term. That isn't true. The producers have said that they never introduce a new element (like the hatch, for instance) unless they know how it will resolve.


Ummm on the DVD's they said that they brought up the hatch without really knowing what was going on with it.

I am not criticizing the show for it's seat of the pant's style. I just think it is silly to thing that the writers actually have this grand complex plan already to go.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Pretty sure Ana Lucia was payback for Goodwin. Perhaps the others don't yet know that Charlie killed Ethan.


So the others somehow knew that Michael would be alone in the hatch with her and told him to kill her?


----------



## MegaHertz67 (Apr 18, 2005)

atrac said:


> Mr. Friendly to Kate: "You're not my type."
> 
> Gay?





DCIFRTHS said:


> That's the only reason I could think of


He might like the black chick. Different strokes and all.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Figaro said:


> Ummm on the DVD's they said that they brought up the hatch without really knowing what was going on with it.


Well, they said quite the opposite on the podcast, but perhaps they were referring at that time to the revealing of what exactly was inside and Desmond and the button...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Figaro said:


> I just think it is silly to thing that the writers actually have this grand complex plan already to go.


I agree with that. I mean, I believe they have the outline, and major plot elements defined, but they have to make the story last for a yet undetermined number of seasons in a way that preserves mystery, while still revealing bits, but not too much along the way. You have to keep people interested, and yet confused. That's how this show works. It seems like a tremendously difficult balance, and I am totally fine with how it is going.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Figaro said:


> Ummm on the DVD's they said that they brought up the hatch without really knowing what was going on with it.
> 
> I am not criticizing the show for it's seat of the pant's style. I just think it is silly to thing that the writers actually have this grand complex plan already to go.


Well, according to Mark Millar (that comic book writer I mentioned earlier, who knows some of the show's producers), the show is a lot more tightly-plotted than you would suspect from seeing it so far.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Figaro said:


> He was on the manifest as James Ford. Remember that is how Locke knew his name. The Syndey police bought his plane ticket and they knew his name.


Oh yeah....

I'd forgotten about that exchange with Locke.

I guess I should have reviewed last season late in the summer. 

(I still think the others have outside connections, though.)


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Oh yeah....
> 
> I'd forgotten about that exchange with Locke.
> 
> ...


I only remember because I just plowed through both seasons on DVD. Not sure how I am going to make it watching this show in "real-time." It works really well on DVD. Don't feel you got enough story in the episode you just watched? No problem, just pop onto the next one. Now it's a waiting game.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Figaro said:


> So the others somehow knew that Michael would be alone in the hatch with her and told him to kill her?


They didn't need to know he'd be alone in the hatch with her nor would they care WHERE she was killed. He was probably just told to "make it happen". As it turns out, he had an opportunity and he took it.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Figaro said:


> I only remember because I just plowed through both seasons on DVD. Not sure how I am going to make it watching this show in "real-time." It works really well on DVD. Don't feel you got enough story in the episode you just watched? No problem, just pop onto the next one. Now it's a waiting game.


Just a "by the way" reminder...the new season structure is supposed to be 6 weeks in a row...a looong break... and then the remainder of the season all in a row until the end. So while the new eps are coming, at least it isn't too long of a wait.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> Just a "by the way" reminder...the new season structure is supposed to be 6 weeks in a row...a looong break... and then the remainder of the season all in a row until the end. So while the new eps are coming, at least it isn't too long of a wait.


Yeah I knew that. This show and BSG ( another recent DVD plow through) are going to kill me.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> They didn't need to know he'd be alone in the hatch with her nor would they care WHERE she was killed. He was probably just told to "make it happen". As it turns out, he had an opportunity and he took it.


Then why not kill Eko too? He killed two of them. What about Charlie? I don't buy it. Michael did it because he saw it as the only way to get Henry out of the clink.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MacThor said:


> Good line: "Are you a doctor?" "I'm a repowoman." Telling him the same lie he told her.


And, is that confirmation that she is, in fact, a doctor?

She obviously already knew that Jack was a doctor when she asked him what he did. So, thanks to Jack's sarcastic response, has she made "repoman/woman" her inside joke code between her and Jack for "doctor"?

Just a thought I had when I heard this response.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Figaro said:


> So the others somehow knew that Michael would be alone in the hatch with her and told him to kill her?


No, I'm sure they also didn't know that AL would sleep with Sawyer, and steal his gun so there would be a firearm in the hatch.

Benry tried to kill Ana Lucia too. The Others sent Michael to free him. In their minds, they had motive and given opportunity Benry or another "other" would have gone after her.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Figaro said:


> Then why not kill Eko too? He killed two of them. What about Charlie? I don't buy it. Michael did it because he saw it as the only way to get Henry out of the clink.


And, he needed that there be *no witnesses* to the fact that it was he who deliberately released Henry.

He could have sprung him by simply holding Ana Lucia at gunpoint, but it would have been difficult to prevent her from telling other people that he had done it, which would have blown the plan for him to help the others capture Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

mojomom said:


> Quote:
> 
> Hey critics, isn't that called.....storytelling? I thought the new perspective on The Others was great. Also, there has to be a connection between Juliet and Penelope somehow. With the early scene in the mirror, Juliet looked almost exactly like Pen.


People don't always like the same stories.

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Z


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Good episode. Enough said. 

Oh man, Stephen King is going to get a kick out of being included in Lost. He is a fan and talks about it from time to time in his column in Entertainment Weekly. 

"Hey, you got a fish biscuit!" LOL


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> And, he needed that there be *no witnesses* to the fact that it was he who deliberately released Henry.


I don't think Michael was instructed to kill AL. I think he decided to do it spontaneously as it was the only way to release Henry with no witnesses, but still retain trust among the Losties so he could lure the critical four people into the jungle.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Big_Daddy said:


> I don't think Michael was instructed to kill AL. I think he decided to do it spontaneously as it was the only way to release Henry with no witnesses, but still retain trust among the Losties so he could lure the critical four people into the jungle.


Agreed.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Figaro said:


> Agreed.


Motion carried.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

scottykempf said:


> "Hey, you got a fish biscuit!" LOL


I don't suppose there was any way to come right out and call it a Babel Fish...


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

hefe said:


> Motion carried.


Next item on the agenda.

Where the hell is Vincent?


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Has it ever been established whether Henry Gale was murdered or died in the crash?

If Kate ate the breakfast, that was awfully selfish of her to take Sawyer's fish biscuit...


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Big_Daddy said:


> I don't think Michael was instructed to kill AL. I think he decided to do it spontaneously as it was the only way to release Henry with no witnesses, but still retain trust among the Losties so he could lure the critical four people into the jungle.


Like I said.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

hefe said:


> Of course they are. That's how *all *shows do it. Nobody writes 6 seasons of plot, episode and characters before they shoot the pilot. I'm not sure why there are people who want to criticize the show for not being written in its entirety already.


Hell, even most movies are done the same way - the scripts get rewritten all the time along the way. I don't understand that complaint either. Now, if they end up with a really crappy resolution, then there's cause for complaints...


----------



## ogden2k (Jun 5, 2004)

Fish Man said:


> A thought:
> 
> Juliet told Jack that if he didn't eat and drink, the drugs they gave him would cause severe dehydration accompanied by hallucinations.
> 
> ...


You make an excellent point, when Kate saw the horse in S2 she hadn't eaten or slept for 24 hours.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MacThor said:


> If Kate ate the breakfast, that was awfully selfish of her to take Sawyer's fish biscuit...


I had the same thought, but I'll bet she didn't eat the breakfast, she wouldn't have given Benry the satisfaction, and Sawyer's cage probably has a big stock of fish biscuits. He can just make it dispense another one.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> I had the same thought, but I'll bet she didn't eat the breakfast, she wouldn't have given Benry the satisfaction, and Sawyer's cage probably has a big stock of fish biscuits. He can just make it dispense another one.


And it dumped a butt-load of pellets out too, which I'm sure rival the fish biscuit for tastiness.


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

after talking with the wife about it this morning.. I'm going to agree with her.

That group that currently have Jack, Sawyer, and Kate prisoners aren't the "Others."

Also... Anyone else notice that there are NO CHILDREN on their compound.

So perhaps that group of Ben, Zeke, Julliette, are "the good guys" and there is still another group out there that aren't good...

That there IS a problem on the island with some type of disease... They drew all their blood, remember they took Walt first... NOT the newborn baby.. That newborn baby was immunitized when they (Ethan - I think it was) ubducted Claire....


----------



## spelcheker (Nov 5, 2002)

How in the Heck did I not get the Babel fish reference??? I'm so stupid


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

MacThor said:


> Has it ever been established whether Henry Gale was murdered or died in the crash?


He didn't die in the crash. Remember when Sayid dug up his body, took his wallet, and found a dollar bill in it with a goodbye message written on it? As I recall, the message said something about how they survived on the island (staying in a cave, or something like that).


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ogden2k said:


> You make an excellent point, when Kate saw the horse in S2 she hadn't eaten or slept for 24 hours.


Don't you mean when Kate _and _Sawyer saw the horse?


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ducker said:


> That group that currently have Jack, Sawyer, and Kate prisoners aren't the "Others."


Sure they are.

First of all, they had Walt. At the end of season 2, Ben gave Walt to Michael in exchange for Jack, Kate and Sawyer.

Also, when Jack, Sawyer, etc came looking for Michael back the first time he left in search for Walt, "Zeke" had captured Kate and gave her back. We know "Zeke" captured Walt. Ben gave Walt back. Ben sent Ethan and Goodwin to the camps.

All these people are the Others. What other Others are there?


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> All these people are the Others. What other Others are there?


I think people still want to know who the feet were in the jungle that Sawyer and AL and them hid from when walking from the tail end to the fuselage camp in S2.


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Also anyone else get the vibe that since Juliette does not like Benry she may end up helping Jack, Sawyer and Kate and then defecting herself? I may be smeeking on that one but I am not reading all the back for that guess.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

mwhip said:
 

> I think people still want to know who the feet were in the jungle that Sawyer and AL and them hid from when walking from the tail end to the fuselage camp in S2.


Well, we can assume that they are the people who took the children because we saw the teddy bear. (Incidentally, my son was watching Peter Pan the other day and the Lost Boys were captured by the Indians and they drug a teddy bear similar to LOST...don't know if that was mentioned last year) We know that Goodwin was sent to provide a "list" to Benry. We can probably assume that the people who snatched the tailees (i.e. the children) were associated with Goodwin...thus they are a part of the group we have dubbed the others.

What I want to know is...well, alot of stuff...but, who is doing all the whispering in the jungle?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

hefe said:


> Don't you mean when Kate _and _Sawyer saw the horse?


You mean that big ass black horse over there?


----------



## AstroDad (Jan 21, 2003)

I believe we saw another example of possible abnormal strength when Juliett knocked out Jack. Not so much becasue she knocked him out (no small feet even if he was dehydrated, etc.), but because she was unharmed in doing so. 

Hitting someone hard enough to knock them out bare handed without messing up your own hand is a tough thing to do. Juliett seemed to be just fine afterward.


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

AstroDad said:


> Hitting someone hard enough to knock them out bare handed without messing up your own hand is a tough thing to do. Juliett seemed to be just fine afterward.


Is this your first time watching TV?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

So many survivors of a plane crash never bothered me until they actually showed the plane breaking up in the air. There's no way so many people could have survived a plunge from that high. I don't think anybody could have.

Another season of nobody explaining anything to anybody. I'm getting tired of this. Why couldn't the Others simply have met with the survivors, explained the situtation and given them the option to join them or not? Right after the crash and all the other times their paths have crossed.

And how could the French lady not know about a modern freakin' suburban village in the middle of the freakin' island? the only thing missing was a 7-Eleven.

Oh, yeah. Forgot something: Jack's a jerk.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't suppose there was any way to come right out and call it a Babel Fish...


Did I miss a towel in that scene?


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> You mean that big ass black horse over there?


No, the one over by that unicorn.


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm just thinking... "The Other's" has been very vague so far... Who knows if it's the Zeke/Ben troupe, or if there is another seperate group out there... We don't know the reason why Ben told Goodwin/Ethan to find out their names/etc... We have no idea if they know about Desmond (I think they do)

Perhaps they were getting the names/information in order to HELP them. If there is something bad roaming the island or a disease that does cause people to go crazy (ie. the French woman's theory) perhaps they are picking people to Rescue before someone else goes in and take them.

Maybe the french lady has never found the camp, because of "the alarm system"

Lots, lots, lots of ideas,theories, and more questions needing answering 

I don't care what negative people write... I think the show is exellent and keeps people guessing and thinking about future episodes.


----------



## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Who else wished this show was on HBO when Kate was in the shower???? LOL


----------



## dadx2 (Oct 14, 2002)

Has everyone forgotten:

1) That the inside of the hatch had the word "Quarantine" written on it?
2) Desmond gave himself a vaccination
3) Claire was taken and given a fascination (for the baby)
3) The baby was given a fascination by Charlie
4) Jack & Kate had bandaids on and Jack was told that he needed to drink water to not dehydrate after the medicine


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

dadx2 said:


> 3) Claire was taken and given a fascination (for the baby)
> 3) The baby was given a fascination by Charlie


Does that word have a definition I'm not aware of...?


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

I think the ol' spell checker bit dadx2.

vaccination -> fascination.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

toddvj said:


> Juliet was on ER. She was the lesbian social worker. Also she was Mrs. Claus/The Principal on The Santa Clause 2.


She also had a nude love scene with Angelina Jolie in "Gia." 

The season two opener was so jarring that I wasn't sure if I liked it or not. I felt the same way this season. In some ways it just seemed like too much of a leap, but I have faith that as we get some more episodes I'll start to feel comfortable again, just as I quickly got used to "the hatch" and Dharma last season.

I loved the stuff with Sawyer in the cage. That was such a video game moment.


----------



## dadx2 (Oct 14, 2002)

hefe said:


> Does that word have a definition I'm not aware of...?


Darn that spell checker!! 

vaccination!!!!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Did I miss a towel in that scene?


Don't panic, I'm sure it was there.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Do people think Jack is really in the underwater station? While we are clearly led to believe that, I think the water door ("don't open it or we'll all die!") was just a setup, to help break Jack (by making him thinh Juliet was more in his corner than Benry) and to help convince him not to try and escape (like with Sawyer). This would explain why she was nearby when Sawyer made his move. One question about this theory is that it was definitely salt water leaking from the ceiling (Jack spit it out when he tasted it) but that could be easily planned in advance.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MickeS said:


> This CD http://www.rwin.nl/sonvolt/details/74410.html has catalog number JN 94743 .


I actually saw that last night but since I saw the 94743 inside the full UPC 827969474327 I thought it wasn't necessarily it.. I should have looked at the line above it, "Cat. Number JN 94743".

Track 3 is titled Jet Pilot..


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> When Juliette told him the rules for getting food, and he eventually agreed and went up against the wall, I thought back to the Star Trek Next Generation episode where Data was kidnapped, and Fajo has a door locked so Data can't get out.. One time when he hears the door open, he looks like he's about to sprint into a sprint to run across the room to get out, but gives up the idea a second or so later.. Jack did what I wanted Data to do in that episode. Very cool.


I was thinking of another ST:TNG episode, the one where Picard was captured and tortured by the Cardassians. I kept waiting for Juliet to ask Jack how many lights there were.


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Another season of nobody explaining anything to anybody. I'm getting tired of this.


It was a constant irritant in this episode for me. It's not just the big things: The other prisoner could've just told Sawyer, "I wouldn't do that _because it will shock you_." Juliette could've told Jack, "We'll both die _because the place will flood._" (Not that he would've believed her, but at least there'd be a reason behind her statement.) Jack's dad, instead of just saying "Let it go," could've said "I'm not sleeping with her!". And Jack's ex could've told him the damn guy's name -- like she said, it makes no difference to anything, but it would've stopped him asking. Seriously, what is up with these people and their lack of communication?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

wmcbrine said:


> It was a constant irritant in this episode for me. It's not just the big things: The other prisoner could've just told Sawyer, "I wouldn't do that _because it will shock you_." Juliette could've told Jack, "We'll both die _because the place will flood._" (Not that he would've believed her, but at least there'd be a reason behind her statement.) Jack's dad, instead of just saying "Let it go," could've said "I'm not sleeping with her!". And Jack's ex could've told him the damn guy's name -- like she said, it makes no difference to anything, but it would've stopped him asking. Seriously, what is up with these people and their lack of communication?


I would explain it but I don't want to talk about it.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> Jack's dad, instead of just saying "Let it go," could've said "I'm not sleeping with her!".


This one bugged me too. While it fits for the Others to make ambiguous and mysterious statements, his father was just adding fuel to Jack's paranoia by making that statement.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> I was thinking of another ST:TNG episode, the one where Picard was captured and tortured by the Cardassians. I kept waiting for Juliet to ask Jack how many lights there were.


You must have been reading my mind or maybe I know you because I said that exact same thing to a co-worker of mine this morning.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> And it dumped a butt-load of pellets out too


Um... gross!

Is this your way of opining that the cage food tastes like ass?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dadx2 said:


> 1) That the inside of the hatch had the word "Quarantine" written on it?
> 2) Desmond gave himself a vaccination


I don't know if anyone ever mentioned this (I'm sure someone did), but I figured that the Quarantine was written on the door by Desmond's predecessor...the one that repaired his boat. Remember, the guy put on his biosuit in front of desmond before leaving, and then took it off outside. It seemed he was trying to keep Desmond from wanting to leave the hatch so that he could go out by himself. The only thing I don't know is why Desmond would continue to vaccinate himself even after he discovered there was no danger out there.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> You must have been reading my mind or maybe I know you because I said that exact same thing to a co-worker of mine this morning.


That's it exactly. I'm the cop on "Heroes"


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> The only thing I don't know is why Desmond would continue to vaccinate himself even after he discovered there was no danger out there.


The Force can have a strong impact on the weak-minded.


----------



## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I'm still enjoying the show, but I did like it better when it was just about the island and it's mysteries. I'm not really liking the direction they are taking so far.


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

DaveyG said:


> Oh yeah, and...
> 
> 3) The abrasions on Kate's wrists suggest quite a bit of struggle


And she seemed very upset and afraid after being put in the cage, like she had been assualted or something. i think we will see more of this.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> That's it exactly. I'm the cop on "Heroes"


You mean the pilot who crashed Oceanic Flight 815?


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

pmyers said:


> I'm still enjoying the show, but I did like it better when it was just about the island and it's mysteries. I'm not really liking the direction they are taking so far.


it still is... they are just taking a breather for more backstory and character development.

Much like they did with the talies in season 2


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> Seriously, what is up with these people and their lack of communication?


Just let it go.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

teknikel said:


> Just let it go.


As I was watching Jack get more and more paranoid and seeing Jack's father act more and more guilty and at the same time watching Jack's "wife" treat Jack with complete and utter contempt (for whatever reason), I started to feel more and more sorry for Jack.

If both of them had been honest with Jack from the start (and in the case of Jack's "wife", I'm talking about the moment she left the hospital from having Jack save her life), it would have likely avoided Jack's "helping" his Dad fall off the wagon and in turn, he never would have been on the plance.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> The only thing I don't know is why Desmond would continue to vaccinate himself even after he discovered there was no danger out there.


Doubt.

Desmond was unsure what to believe about the need to vaccinate.

It's exactly like Locke's struggle about whether it was really necessary to push the button.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Ok.. after the earthquake, everyone comes outside, and they're _all looking up_.. (well, at least Benry is). There's a strange sound as they watch the plane, and a thick black smoke behind the plane as it comes in (before crashing). I wonder if that's "black smoke" (nanotech/whatever that Eko/Locke? saw) slowly lowering the pieces of the plane down to some "safe" height off the water so people could live..


We missed you, Keegs.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> As I was watching Jack get more and more paranoid and seeing Jack's father act more and more guilty and at the same time watching Jack's "wife" treat Jack with complete and utter contempt (for whatever reason), I started to feel more and more sorry for Jack.
> 
> If both of them had been honest with Jack from the start (and in the case of Jack's "wife", I'm talking about the moment she left the hospital from having Jack save her life), it would have likely avoided Jack's "helping" his Dad fall off the wagon and in turn, he never would have been on the plance.


Everyone who is saying "Just tell him the name" has never dealt with someone who is obsessed with someone or something. The guy's name didn't matter- they had to draw a line in the sand and get Jack to let it go. If they told him the name or his dad and wife weren't an item, he would have moved onto some other question or theory.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Everyone who is saying "Just tell him the name" has never dealt with someone who is obsessed with someone or something. The guy's name didn't matter- they had to draw a line in the sand and get Jack to let it go. If they told him the name or his dad and wife weren't an item, he would have moved onto some other question or theory.


Yeah. Their way seems to work much better.


----------



## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

She played a CD at the beginning anyone got a screenshot of the CD player? Any way to tell about what year it was made?


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

teknikel said:


> Yeah. Their way seems to work much better.


Well, it may have worked fine if Jack's dad hadn't started drinking. You can tell Jack was still obsessed with her, even in his prison. The whole "is she happy" thing is the hackneyed way he finally let go.

He should have let her go earlier. She didn't have to tell him the name and shouldn't have. It was a whole power thing. He still ended up contesting the divorce and probably would have no matter what she had done.

You don't give an alcoholic a drink just cause they ask you for one....


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

The screenshots weren't coming up for me. Did Locke's map from the capsule show Hydra station being underwater?

I thought the marking near Sawyer's cage looked like a Scorpion. Someone pointed out that Sawyer's and Jack's logos appeared to be the same.


----------



## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

pmyers said:


> I'm not really liking the direction they are taking so far.


Are you saying "it's by the numbers religious hocum-pocum, science fiction?"


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> I don't think Sawyer mentioned to _any_ of the lostaways what his real name was. We, the viewers, had learned it from the flashbacks but it seems to me that Sawyer would have been very unlikely to reveal his real name to anyone on the island.
> 
> I'd bet he was even traveling under his alias, meaning he would have been on the flight manifest as: " <some first name> Sawyer".
> 
> Yet the others knew his real name. So, they have a file on him too.


Nope, in the flight manifest, he was apparently listed as his real name, James Ford.. When Sawyer and Locke were hiking one day, Locke asked him why he picked that name.. Sawyer thought Locke meant the "Mr. Clean" nickname he'd just called him, and said he was one mop and a tee shirt away from being the logo or something, and Locke said "No, I mean Sawyer.." and explained that he saw the manifest..

He later called him James in front of Kate too on the beach, I think (maybe in front of others, too).


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Nope, in the flight manifest, he was apparently listed as his real name, James Ford.. When Sawyer and Locke were hiking one day, Locke asked him why he picked that name.. Sawyer thought Locke meant the "Mr. Clean" nickname he'd just called him, and said he was one mop and a tee shirt away from being the logo or something, and Locke said "No, I mean Sawyer.." and explained that he saw the manifest..
> 
> He later called him James in front of Kate too on the beach, I think (maybe in front of others, too).


Is this a Smeekgan?


----------



## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

Lee L said:


> As far as making it look like they were going to breed Sawyer and Kate in captivity, as soon as my wife saw the cages and after hearing the music (which was very Lost-y yet a little different) she though of the original Planet of the Apes. Even more so when they brought Kate out to the cage too.


I thought the same thing as soon as I heard the music.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Nope, in the flight manifest, he was apparently listed as his real name, James Ford..


He was listed as "James Ford". We have no way of knowing whether or not that's his real name...


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

This show really reminds me of Heroes......  


Didn't see Alex.


No more Henry Perrineau??? so no more "WAAALLTTT!!!" ???? Gonna miss that. not.

You know what would be funny? Someone mentioned earlier that the island gets bigger and bigger each season... What if they were really on Oahu? that island does bear a strong resemblance. I can't remember what show/movie it was when they were stranded on a resort island.. Gilligan's Island???


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

GadgetFreak said:


> The screenshots weren't coming up for me. Did Locke's map from the capsule show Hydra station being underwater?
> 
> I thought the marking near Sawyer's cage looked like a Scorpion. Someone pointed out that Sawyer's and Jack's logos appeared to be the same.


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Am I the only one who thought that when Jack first saw Juliet walk up to the glass on the other side of his cell he was going to say "Well, Clarice - have the lambs stopped screaming"

and I was sure that Sawyer was going to press his face between the bars of his cage and scream "Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

Do I need to find a copy of this episode to understand whats going on the rest of the season? I forgot to program it in last night, so many other things to d/l I missed Lost.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MacThor said:


> I noticed that Harold Perrineau is no longer in the credits.


I think that just means that he isn't a regular. He will probably still appear a few times in a "guest" capacity. Pretty much like Walt really was in Season 2.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Do I need to find a copy of this episode to understand whats going on the rest of the season? I forgot to program it in last night, so many other things to d/l I missed Lost.


It's available to watch for free at ABC.com

http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landing


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Everyone who is saying "Just tell him the name" has never dealt with someone who is obsessed with someone or something. The guy's name didn't matter- they had to draw a line in the sand and get Jack to let it go. If they told him the name or his dad and wife weren't an item, he would have moved onto some other question or theory.


I agree. While I do have a problem with the losties not telling eachother stuff about what's going on, for no other reason than to keep plots going, this was not a problem for me at all. Jack DID need to let it go - who's he to start demanding things from them, when those things were none of his business at that point


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

hefe said:


> It's available to watch for free at ABC.com
> 
> http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landing


I've tryed that about 10 times and it keeps taking me to the Shockwave site to d/l it even tho I have it installed, I don't know what the problem is. Thanks Tho


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fl_Gulfer said:


> I've tryed that about 10 times and it keeps taking me to the Shockwave site to d/l it even tho I have it installed, I don't know what the problem is. Thanks Tho


Hmm. Maybe you don't have the latest version?

It's working OK for me using Firefox as my browser.


----------



## Fl_Gulfer (May 27, 2005)

I been using IE 7 for a few months but I deleted the shockwave and reinstalled it also.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> Everyone who is saying "Just tell him the name" has never dealt with someone who is obsessed with someone or something. The guy's name didn't matter- they had to draw a line in the sand and get Jack to let it go. If they told him the name or his dad and wife weren't an item, he would have moved onto some other question or theory.


Anyway, I REALLY wanted her to answer: "His name is..... Hurley...."


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

vman said:


> Do people think Jack is really in the underwater station? While we are clearly led to believe that, I think the water door ("don't open it or we'll all die!") was just a setup, to help break Jack (by making him thinh Juliet was more in his corner than Benry) and to help convince him not to try and escape (like with Sawyer). This would explain why she was nearby when Sawyer made his move. One question about this theory is that it was definitely salt water leaking from the ceiling (Jack spit it out when he tasted it) but that could be easily planned in advance.


The station is a small zoo where Dharma did their animal research. The aquarium was really underwater. Hell of a way to fill it up, though. What intern got THAT job.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Another season of nobody explaining anything to anybody. I'm getting tired of this. Why couldn't the Others simply have met with the survivors, explained the situtation and given them the option to join them or not? Right after the crash and all the other times their paths have crossed.


Because they believe (correctly or not) that there's some disease/virus out there. and they have a limited supply of vaccine. They're deciding who is worth keeping and who isn't.

(At least if you believe what Ethan told Claire in the medical hatch)


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

I hope no one mentioned this already. The galleries up at ABC.com seem to have a shot of a scene that was cut. Notice the little girl in picture #33

http://homepage.mac.com/cwoody222/lost.jpg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> I was thinking of another ST:TNG episode, the one where Picard was captured and tortured by the Cardassians. I kept waiting for Juliet to ask Jack how many lights there were.


  Yeah, me too.. I kept picturing Jack screaming "THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!" and it sounding 100 times whimpier/whinier than it would have if it was said by Patrick Stewart.


----------



## mgarthe (Mar 3, 2006)

Anyone want to discuss the video podcast -

http://abc.go.com/fsp/index.html?channel=Lost&clip=114441

some good info on there.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> Notice the little girl in picture #33


You mean you weren't paying attention during her scene?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mgarthe said:


> Anyone want to discuss the video podcast -
> 
> http://abc.go.com/fsp/index.html?channel=Lost&clip=114441
> 
> some good info on there.


Wait a minute...are they discontinuing the audio feed of the podcast? And how can you call it a podcast unless you can subscribe and automatically download it...?


----------



## fsck_101 (Apr 9, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Ok, this was totally unrelated, but I felt the need to post it..
> 
> When looking up Downtown and seeing other songs by Petula Clark, I saw the title "Don't Sleep in the Subway". I knew I'd heard the title.. I could even imagine the notes that would go along with those words in the song, and when I downloaded it, sure enough they were close.. (but this time sung by a woman with a nice voice, as opposed to some buried memory I had where it was sung in jest by a man).
> 
> ...


Monty Python's Election Night Special?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Because they believe (correctly or not) that there's some disease/virus out there. and they have a limited supply of vaccine. They're deciding who is worth keeping and who isn't.


They have a connection to the outside world. The have modern luxuries & nice clothing. They were able to tell Michael exactly which way to go to find rescue and get off the island (unless they lied to him and he finds himself back at the beach like desmond did).

I'd suspect their supply is anything but limited


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> He was listed as "James Ford". We have no way of knowing whether or not that's his real name...


I thought in his flashback of being a kid under the bed, his mother called him James.. (though that was a while ago, so I dunno).


----------



## mgarthe (Mar 3, 2006)

I have been checking TiVo for recent Lost podcasts and haven't gotten any since July. I found this video today. I miss listening while I drift off. Although, on the site you can pause it. 
They mention something on there about the animals and symbols. There is apparently something on Damon's hat that is the reason for the video. Although, I cannot see it clearly enough for it to be of any use!

Loved the part when they are pretending to be sleeping!


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

mgarthe said:


> Anyone want to discuss the video podcast -
> 
> http://abc.go.com/fsp/index.html?channel=Lost&clip=114441
> 
> some good info on there.


That was the most annoying thing I have ever seen. What a couple of pompus dorks.


----------



## mohler7154 (Mar 7, 2005)

I just wanted to post my thoughts about the information that Juliet had about Jack. I think there is a different explanation than that the others have access to the outside world. We already know that paranormal things are happening on the island. So i think that the most likely explanation for the info they have on Jack is that someone pulled it from his mind. I don't remember exactly all the information that Juliet had, I will have to watch again, but I think some of the things were too personal to be pulled from a file.

The only thing that they had that couldn't simply be read from Jack's mind is the autopsy report, and she only SAID she had that. It doesn't mean she really has it.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mgarthe said:


> I have been checking TiVo for recent Lost podcasts and haven't gotten any since July. I found this video today. I miss listening while I drift off. Although, on the site you can pause it.


You can pause it, but you can't rewind or go forward. And it is not subscribable.

It is a horrible, horrible change. And it is NOT a podcast if it's not in an RSS feed.

I think I may sign on there just to complain about that.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> We missed you, Keegs.





Figaro said:


> Is this a Smeekgan?


I feel, and appreciate, the love.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mgarthe said:


> Anyone want to discuss the video podcast -


I'd love to, but its been "your video is loading..." for 15 minutes now


----------



## mgarthe (Mar 3, 2006)

The logo on the hat was just the Hydra Symbol. Was definately not worth the aggrevation of waiting for it to buffer. I would have much rather just listened to it!


----------



## kcarl75 (Oct 23, 2002)

hefe said:


> It is a horrible, horrible change. And it is NOT a podcast if it's not in an RSS feed.


http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=200433679


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

So, were the bears from Sawyer's cage THE bears that were running around on the other side of the island? 

Cuz that din't look like no Polo Bear enclosure.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

kcarl75 said:


> http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=200433679


I don't use iTunes. Do you have a feed address?


----------



## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> So many survivors of a plane crash never bothered me until they actually showed the plane breaking up in the air. There's no way so many people could have survived a plunge from that high. I don't think anybody could have.
> 
> Another season of nobody explaining anything to anybody. I'm getting tired of this. Why couldn't the Others simply have met with the survivors, explained the situtation and given them the option to join them or not? Right after the crash and all the other times their paths have crossed.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly! (especially about Jack. What an unlikable character!)

I like the show. It's fun. It's interesting. However, it would be nice if they solve a mystery or two before moving onto the next one.

What is the black smoke thing?

What's with all the hallucinations?

What about the big monster?

How did the losties and tailies survive the crash in the first place?

How can the French woman live there for so long and still don't know about Otherstown?

on and on and on and on...

It'd be nice to finish an ep of Lost and saying "so that's why yada yada yada" instead of constantly thinking "huh?"


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

5thcrewman said:


> So, were the bears from Sawyer's cage THE bears that were running around on the other side of the island?


There's no reason to believe that there actually _were_ bears in that cage. The captor guy could easily have just been giving Sawyer a hard time...


----------



## loubol (Apr 16, 2003)

Sawyer is his type!


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I thought in his flashback of being a kid under the bed, his mother called him James.


Nope. You're talking about the beginning of "Outlaws" (S01E16). She doesn't call him by name.


----------



## loubol (Apr 16, 2003)

How do they know they are on an island and not a peninsula? they haven't walked the entire coast. They could be in Mexico and the vaccine could be for the water!


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'd suspect their supply is anything but limited[/QUOTE]

She seemed to suggest that Dharma ended a long time ago, but yet their supplies all have the logo on them. Like the water bottle.

I read an article that said Benry's statement "We're the good guys" is true and going to be explained. How can locking fellow human beings in a cage be "good" behavior no matter what the situation. I can't imagine what could justify that. If they're afraid of them, they have more humane ways to restrain them.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

loubol said:


> How do they know they are on an island and not a peninsula? they haven't walked the entire coast. They could be in Mexico and the vaccine could be for the water!


They weren't that close to North America when the plane went down...the only thing between Australia and North America is a bunch of islands...


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

I loved it the hour just flew by way to fast can't wait till next week.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> You mean you weren't paying attention during her scene?


So WAS this scene in yesterday's episode? http://homepage.mac.com/cwoody222/lost.jpg

I don't remember it either.


----------



## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

vman said:


> Do people think Jack is really in the underwater station? While we are clearly led to believe that, I think the water door ("don't open it or we'll all die!") was just a setup, to help break Jack (by making him thinh Juliet was more in his corner than Benry) and to help convince him not to try and escape (like with Sawyer). This would explain why she was nearby when Sawyer made his move. One question about this theory is that it was definitely salt water leaking from the ceiling (Jack spit it out when he tasted it) but that could be easily planned in advance.


Are you serious? So your saying they intentionally dripped water from the ceiling because they knew Jack would taste it. And they filled some room with salt water because they knew Jack would try to escape by opening that particular door.



Not EVERYTHING in this show is a big mystery.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Supfreak26 said:


> Are you serious? So your saying they intentionally dripped water from the ceiling because they knew Jack would taste it. And they filled some room with salt water because they knew Jack would try to escape by opening that particular door.
> 
> 
> 
> Not EVERYTHING in this show is a big mystery.


Yeah, but I love how people try to find conspiracies behind even the most mundane and obvious elements.

Maybe that fish cracker was really laced with hallucinogens, and Sawyer was simply imagining that Kate is in the other cage, while in reality she's still down on the beach!


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Supfreak26 said:


> It'd be nice to finish an ep of Lost and saying "so that's why yada yada yada" instead of constantly thinking "huh?"


While you have a good point, they do reveal stuff every once in a while. For example, we now have pretty definitive proof as to where the polar bears came from. First we see them in the DHARMA video, now we see a cage with a Tomb Raider for bears puzzle. They could have just dropped the whole bears thing, but instead they explained it.


----------



## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

loubol said:


> How do they know they are on an island and not a peninsula? they haven't walked the entire coast. They could be in Mexico and the vaccine could be for the water!


Or maybe the plane just missed LAX and they are in the jungles of Palos Verdes.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I read an article that said Benry's statement "We're the good guys" is true and going to be explained. How can locking fellow human beings in a cage be "good" behavior no matter what the situation. I can't imagine what could justify that. If they're afraid of them, they have more humane ways to restrain them.


Even though both Sawyer and Kate have committed premeditated murder?


----------



## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

DLiquid said:


> While you have a good point, they do reveal stuff every once in a while. For example, we now have pretty definitive proof as to where the polar bears came from. First we see them in the DHARMA video, now we see a cage with a Tomb Raider for bears puzzle. They could have just dropped the whole bears thing, but instead they explained it.


Ok. Score one for the show. 

How about the super-long extension cord coming out of the ocean? That was found in the first few eps of the series and still no explanation.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Supfreak26 said:


> Ok. Score one for the show.
> 
> How about the super-long extension cord coming out of the ocean? That was found in the first few eps of the series and still no explanation.


And that doesn't tie into how Juliet has that dossier on Jack?

It sure looked like a communications cable to me.


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Figaro said:


> I would explain it but I don't want to talk about it.


It doesn't matter what you talk about ... it's what talks about you!


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Figaro said:


> You mean the pilot who crashed Oceanic Flight 815?


No, he means Weiss from Alias


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

JYoung said:


> And that doesn't tie into how Juliet has that dossier on Jack?
> 
> It sure looked like a communications cable to me.


And before someone says "how can you run a communication cable to an island in the middle of the ocean":

TransAtlantic Cable


----------



## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

MickeS said:


> So WAS this scene in yesterday's episode? http://homepage.mac.com/cwoody222/lost.jpg
> 
> I don't remember it either.


It was a great scene. Her long monologue explaining everything about the Island, the Others and the castaways really made sense.


----------



## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> And before someone says "how can you run a communication cable to an island in the middle of the ocean":
> 
> TransAtlantic Cable


Wow, I know I heard of it before but this is the first time I'm wrapping my mind around the concept of a cable that runs from France to the US.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Heres a map of some of the cables in place today.
http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/alcatel_large.gif


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I read an article that said Benry's statement "We're the good guys" is true and going to be explained.


They're not the good guys. They're a bunch of psychopaths. I don't care what their cause is; the ends never justify the means.

He may have been _sincere,_ but that's another matter. Most people think of themselves as good, after all... even the average Nazi did, at the time.

If the show is seriously going to say, yes, this behavior was justified, that may be the point at which I leave the show. But we'll see.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I just noticed something....Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond) was in the credits for this episode. I didn't notice him anywhere in the episode...not in the previous episode recap, or even in the previews. Did I miss him somewhere? Are they just carrying his name along because he'll be in a future episode? If so, I was really under the impression that he died in the hatch, so that would be surprising to me. Unless they just plan to have him in flashbacks.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I just noticed something....Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond) was in the credits for this episode. I didn't notice him anywhere in the episode...not in the previous episode recap, or even in the previews. Did I miss him somewhere? Are they just carrying his name along because he'll be in a future episode? If so, I was really under the impression that he died in the hatch, so that would be surprising to me. Unless they just plan to have him in flashbacks.


Named actors are the "regular" characters. He'll be back, like all the other Losties that weren't in the episode.


----------



## mohler7154 (Mar 7, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> They're not the good guys. They're a bunch of psychopaths. I don't care what their cause is; the ends never justify the means.
> 
> He may have been _sincere,_ but that's another matter. Most people think of themselves as good, after all... even the average Nazi did, at the time.
> 
> If the show is seriously going to say, yes, this behavior was justified, that may be the point at which I leave the show. But we'll see.


Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:

All of the death's so far on the island have had nothing to do with the others.

Rousaeu's team killed by Rosaeu
One of the others in the jungle was killed by Ecko
Nathan was killed by Ana Lucia
Goodwin killed by Ana Lucia
Shannon Killed by Ana Lucia
Ethan killed by Charlie
Boone killed in a quest led by Locke
Shannon killed by Ana Lucia
Libby Killed by Michael
Ana Lucia Killed by Michael

It seems to me that the real psychopath's on this island mostly arrived there on flight 815.

Now as far as the other's being bad themselves, I can certainly get on that train too. They abducted rouseau's daughter alex, they abducted many of the people from the tail section, they abducted claire in an attempt to get to her child, they brainwashed her into thinking that she had to leave the child with them and used lies and deception (including costumes) to convince her, they abducted Walt. All of these things show that something is seriously wrong with these people, but I don't think it qualifies them as psychopaths.

*Secondly:*
Reading many of the earlier posts in this thread it seems like people have come to the conclusion that all of the abductees from the tail section are dead or gone somewhere, but the only time we saw the other's village was the day of the crash. The rest of the time we saw the different hatches of the dharma initiative. We have seen the others go to some very extensive lengths to deceive people, and i seriously doubt that these hatches represent anything about the other's real lives.

What i am trying to get at is that it is entirely possible that all of the abductees are in the village with the rest of the other's. The others have not shown us anything that would make me think that they intended any physical harm to them, and they have shown, however slightly, that they intend to integrate these people into their group (with the simple fact that Alex, who they abducted from Rouseau, still lives among them after sixteen years.

*Finally:*
Everyone seems to have come to the conclusion that Rouseau is EXACTLY what she says she is. A troubled woman who has lived alone on this island for sixteen years. While this is certainly a possiblity, and really a probability, it is not definite. There has been no definitive proof that Rouseau is not playing with the surivors minds. She seems to only show up when something big is about to happen. The most likely reasoning for this is that she knows what is going to happen before it does.

Consider this: is it not possible that she is working with other people on the island. Maybe "the others", maybe people that we have not been introduced to yet. She could be a spy that is sent in to intermingle with the survivors just like Goodwyn was. There is no better way to observe people than from on the fringe. She has almost gotten to the point that people don't even fear her. Certainly their guard is up, especially claire's and with good reason, but she seems to serve the role more of providing much needed information at critical plot points. This could just be sloppy writing on the part of the writers, using a cheap trick to give the survivors information that they wouldn't be able to have otherwise, or it could be that she gives this information out to manipulate them into acting the way she chooses. Given the level of writing so far in this show I am going to place my money on the second horse.

 But hey maybe my twelve hour shift here at work is just getting to me and so my theories are getting a little too strange. All i know for sure is that i can't wait to see what happens next.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

One thing I thought interesting that hasn't really been discussed...

Juliet at the start of the episode, as she put the music on, was quite upset. She almost started to cry, and then steadied herself and regained her composure. It's as if something about her situation is really causing her conflict or maybe she is doing something against her will. In any case, it sets her up to be sympathetic to our Losties.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I bet she is upset with Benry. He is referred to as her "ex" and he is a slimy s.o.b. so I wouldn't be surprised if he is causing her grief.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Yeah, kinda overlooked was the beginning. I thought maybe ABC accidentally looped up some "Desperate Housewives" or something! But she's clearly upset about something, and the plane hasn't crashed yet so that can't be it. She was very distracted, since she when she burned her hand she only took 1 oven mitt but used 2 hands to pick up the muffins. Ouch.

No one has commented on the irony of Sawyer being locked in the bear cage, he being the one who shot the polar bear and all.


----------



## spelcheker (Nov 5, 2002)

A long time ago I predicted 'him' was Henry. (I doubt I was the first)

But I'm going to be the first to predict this.

The old woman, at the door in the first scene, is Benry's mother.

He is the son of one of the Dharma big shots or the founder dude.

Bet the ranch.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

mohler7154 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:
> 
> All of the death's so far on the island have had nothing to do with the others.
> 
> ...


Except that The Others tried to kill Jin, Sawyer, and Michael and Ethan killed Charlie (had not Jack revived him).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

fsck_101 said:


> Monty Python's Election Night Special?


Ding ding ding ding ding!!!

Correct! Give the man a fish biscuit!


----------



## loubol (Apr 16, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I just noticed something....Henry Ian Cusick (Desmond) was in the credits for this episode. I didn't notice him anywhere in the episode...not in the previous episode recap, or even in the previews. Did I miss him somewhere? Are they just carrying his name along because he'll be in a future episode? If so, I was really under the impression that he died in the hatch, so that would be surprising to me. Unless they just plan to have him in flashbacks.


He was in the first scene when Benry sent him to the tail crash site, he told him it would only take thirty minutes to get there. But I think he was late.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

loubol said:


> He was in the first scene when Benry sent him to the tail crash site


Ben sent *Goodwin* to the tail section, not Desmond...


----------



## loubol (Apr 16, 2003)

Your all over me today!


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

lpamelaa said:


> If you all are looking for an important line from the episode, I think we have to consider when Juliet said, "It doesn't matter who we were, what matters is who we are."
> 
> And keep in mind how similar that is to Sarah's parting words to Jack, "It doesn't matter who he is, what matters is who you're not."


That's a great point. I didn't catch that.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

mohler7154 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:
> 
> All of the death's so far on the island have had nothing to do with the others.
> 
> ...


Goodwin killed Nathan. Snapped his neck.


----------



## stalemate (Aug 21, 2005)

hefe said:


> I don't use iTunes. Do you have a feed address?


This might work for you: http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcastRSS?feedPublishKey=2484&type=itunes


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

betts4 said:


> I bet she is upset with Benry. He is referred to as her "ex" and he is a slimy s.o.b. so I wouldn't be surprised if he is causing her grief.


See now, I'm a little confused about that. When was he ever referred to in those terms? I suppose it's easy to assume, and I did too, but after viewing their scenes again, I'm not at all convinced that they are a couple. At least, nothing explicitly indicates that. There does appear to be tension between them, and they are the prominent characters, but we have no idea what their relationship is or was.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

stalemate said:


> This might work for you: http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcastRSS?feedPublishKey=2484&type=itunes


Thanks, I can use that in my aggregator...

I don't know why they don't have that link right on their page.

Unfortunately, I still hate that they've gone video. I used to listen on my mp3 player while commuting or doing other things, and now I can't do that anymore. Just because you _can _do video, it doesn't mean you _should_.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Just a general reply to some of the "I wish they wrapped things up quicker" comments..

..for MY money, I HOPE they don't explain all of the early mysteries too soon, and I certainly hope they hold some of the earliest out to be solved at the very end (in some satisfying way). If every problem got solved within 3-4 episodes of it being aired, all we'd be doing is rolling forward to the next thing, never going back to something that we're like "oh yeah! I forgot about that!" about.

I think it's really cool when they wrap up something waaaaay down the line.. especially if it's clear that it was intentionally left unknown until now, rather than that they're picking a week to write some solution to an unknown problem.. It's cooler to think that since the first season, that cable has been going to an underwater hatch. They didn't resolve that until now (assuming that's where it's going). I'd love for them to have things planted in the very first episodes that tied in perfectly with the latest ones.

But that's just me.. Some people don't want to follow the story line for too long I guess.. I just can't see that being anywhere near as much fun (since you remember all of the problems that are being solved, since they're only a few weeks old at best..)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I also got the impression that Benry and Juliet were an item, at least at some point. I'm on vacation so I had to watch live and wasn't able to rewind to confirm what I thought I heard, but during the book club scene, I got the impression that the people were at Juliet and Ben's house by the way they were talking to Juliet and referring to Ben. She then got offended and told them she had picked the book, because they assumed Ben had picked it, because (I thought) they were in Ben's (and Juliet's) house. Of course, it wasn't until the end of the episode that we found out who Ben was, but that's when it hit me that Ben and Juliet are (were?) married.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Any chance the room Jack's in is/was used to operate on sharks and dolphins? That table is huge and has grates for some reason.

Also, has Jack always had these tattoos?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=222


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## S. Stiffler (Oct 7, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> He was listed as "James Ford". We have no way of knowing whether or not that's his real name...


Back up a season or two...what was that letter that Sawyer had with him? Kate read it when they were on the beach. It has to do with his back story...I think Sawyer is the man James had become, or something like that.

I forget, but I always thought that Sawyer was not his real name, just someone he turned into.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

devdogaz said:


> I also got the impression that Benry and Juliet were an item, at least at some point. I'm on vacation so I had to watch live and wasn't able to rewind to confirm what I thought I heard, but during the book club scene, I got the impression that the people were at Juliet and Ben's house by the way they were talking to Juliet and referring to Ben. She then got offended and told them she had picked the book, because they assumed Ben had picked it, because (I thought) they were in Ben's (and Juliet's) house. Of course, it wasn't until the end of the episode that we found out who Ben was, but that's when it hit me that Ben and Juliet are (were?) married.


I went back and rewatched the scene, and it is still a jump to that conclusion. Maybe it turns out to be true, but I got a different impression watching the second time.

At the book club meeting, while complaining about the book choice,



> Adam: "Now I know why Ben isn't here."
> 
> Juliet: "Excuse me?"
> 
> ...


Then they are interrupted by the "event."

When they all walk outside, Ben comes out of a different house. After barking out orders, he sees Juliet and says, "So I guess I'm out of the book club."

All that seems conclusive there is that Ben _was _part of the book club before, and that people are afraid of disappointing or crossing or offending him.

Juliet clearly states that _she _is the host. I don't know what her relatinship is with him...could go many different ways.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> Any chance the room Jack's in is/was used to operate on sharks and dolphins? That table is huge and has grates for some reason.
> 
> Also, has Jack always had these tattoos?


Yes. From the very first episode.









They are Matthew Fox's real tattoos.

But in the episode (Do No Harm) where Jack is getting dressed or fitted for his wedding tux in a flashback, they covered them with make up.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=48


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

rondotcom said:


> No, he means Weiss from Alias


or "Kevin" from Mission Impossible 3, perhaps. I see a pattern brewing.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway.


I almost posted back saying "what car?". LOL...didn't notice the picture scrolled off the screen just a tiny bit.

It wouldn't be far fetched to think they might have a car. After all, they have a boat, modern appliances, etc. I'd assume their supplies are brought in by boat. After all, they have that nice LARGE dock. Why would you have such a large dock unless you have some decent size ships coming in?

Anway, they are a bit of a distance from water. It would seem reasonable that they might have a vehicle to transport supplies from the dock to their village.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Goodwin killed Nathan. Snapped his neck.


Don't forget Scott/Steve killed by Ethan. Ethan was such a Dick, and by Dick I mean he looked a lot more like a Richard. And by Richard I mean dick.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

hefe said:


> One thing I thought interesting that hasn't really been discussed...
> 
> Juliet at the start of the episode, as she put the music on, was quite upset. She almost started to cry, and then steadied herself and regained her composure. It's as if something about her situation is really causing her conflict or maybe she is doing something against her will. In any case, it sets her up to be sympathetic to our Losties.


That was definitely discussed by a couple people, both that she was upset (speculation was a breakup, possibly with Ben) and that shes sympathetic and might possibly help them.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> That was definitely discussed by a couple people, both that she was upset (speculation was a breakup, possibly with Ben) and that shes sympathetic and might possibly help them.


Maybe she is just upset because her CD collection is in such disarray?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> It's cooler to think that since the first season, that cable has been going to an underwater hatch. They didn't resolve that until now (assuming that's where it's going).


No, I don't think thats the same place at all. The cable was probably in an entirely different place from where this episode took place. It wouldn't make sense to have a hatch isolated out in the water, because you'd have to take a boat out to get to it. It would make more sense to have the entrance be on land near the shore, go down underground, and then follow a long tunnel that would emerge underwater.

Well, we know that kate was near the water, kate is in the same place as sawyer, and juliet quickly made it from jack (who is in the underwater hatch) to sawyer (when he escaped) and back to jack. It would make sense to me that there is a land entrance with a tunnel to the underwater area. And if thats the case, why would you need to run a cable down the beach into the water when you could just run it through the tunnels?

No I'd suspect that the cable is either a submarine communication cable (as we discussed yesterday) or it was a cable run to underwater turbines which were setup either by Reusso's team (which we discussed in season 1) or by the Dharma group LONG ago.


----------



## pallen4215 (Mar 4, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I almost posted back saying "what car?". LOL...didn't notice the picture scrolled off the screen just a tiny bit.
> 
> It wouldn't be far fetched to think they might have a car. After all, they have a boat, modern appliances, etc. I'd assume their supplies are brought in by boat. After all, they have that nice LARGE dock. Why would you have such a large dock unless you have some decent size ships coming in?
> 
> Anway, they are a bit of a distance from water. It would seem reasonable that they might have a vehicle to transport supplies from the dock to their village.


And if the Dharma project is over, why would they be dropping supplies. Maybe the others decided to drop the losties some food with a plane that they have? Planes can use docks also. They could have dropped food to keep them happy (well as much as possible) and hopefully keep them from hunting for food over the island.

what else was going on about the time they dropped the food?


----------



## pallen4215 (Mar 4, 2005)

just watched the podcast and the guys confirmed there are more than one group of others.

what bird did we see last season? The guy was asking about the bears, sharks and a "bird?".


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

pallen4215 said:


> just watched the podcast and the guys confirmed there are more than one group of others.
> 
> what bird did we see last season? The guy was asking about the bears, sharks and a "bird?".


We saw the "Hurley" bird when they were walking through the jungle...that seemed to call Hurley's name.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pallen4215 said:


> what bird did we see last season? The guy was asking about the bears, sharks and a "bird?".


The bird that said Hurley's name...the one that divebombed the group when michael discovered Jack had given him an empty clip.


----------



## pallen4215 (Mar 4, 2005)

season two - http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=133

season one - 




ok, there's no way to tie that bird to Dharma, I didn't see a logo, but it's not in HD, so who knows.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

laststarfighter said:


> Wow, I know I heard of it before but this is the first time I'm wrapping my mind around the concept of a cable that runs from France to the US.


Even crazier to me is that it was done around the time of the Civil War.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> Any chance the room Jack's in is/was used to operate on sharks and dolphins? That table is huge and has grates for some reason.


IIRC, she specifically said that it was used for that purpose.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pallen4215 said:


> And if the Dharma project is over


We don't really know that the Dharma project is over. It's possible the others are still involved in it. Assuming that folder was full of real documents about Jack, they would have had to get it from somewhere.

If they aren't still actively part of the Dharma group, they might now be the subjects of the experiment. The group in the Perl hatch seemed to be told that they were monitoring an experiment, and it was implied that the subjects in the other hatches weren't really doing any useful work. However, it now seem that what was going on in the hatches (or at least the swan) WAS important. It seemed that perhaps the observers...the people who thought they were monitoring the experiment...were actually subjects of the experiment themselves.

So now why have Bens group. We can infer (though it may be incorrect) that they were in charge of the Dharma project on the island. Well, perhaps it turns out that they too are part of the experiment. They may not have realized it initially, but they now find themselves stuck there.

The only thing that doesn't fit with that is that Ben told Michael how to escape from the island, so it would seem he knows the way off. However, we don't yet know if he was telling the truth.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Maybe Juliet was homesick? The lyrics about going downtown when you have problems... not really a downtown place to go to there. 

Maybe she'll help the losties get off the island and take her with them.


----------



## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

spelcheker said:


> He is the son of one of the Dharma big shots or the founder dude.


So he's Rachel Blake's brother?


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

S. Stiffler said:


> Back up a season or two...what was that letter that Sawyer had with him? _(...)_ I think Sawyer is the man James had become, or something like that _(...)_ I always thought that Sawyer was not his real name, just someone he turned into.


The letter was from the person who we know as "Sawyer" to the con man Sawyer who conned his mother.

It's definitely true that "Sawyer" isn't his real name, but the letter didn't mention James Ford at all. That name came from the manifest and there's been no confirmation that he was using his real name for the flight. (Seeing as how he's a con man and was travelling for the express purpose of committing murder, it's easy to see how he might choose to travel under an alias.)


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Supfreak26 said:


> What is the black smoke thing?
> 
> What about the big monster?
> 
> How did the losties and tailies survive the crash in the first place?


The black smoke thing _IS_ the monster. It's the thing that ate the pilot, confronted Locke, ripped trees out of the ground, dragged Locke into the hole, etc.

The show telegraphs answers and people refuse to believe them.

They _showed_ us that Ben, Tom, etc. are the "savage others" with the makeup kits, but people still insist there's another group of people. There may be, but we haven't seen one of them or any evidence of them.

Don't reference the others seen in the jungle by Eko and Jin, either. They're the same too. Goodwin infiltration the tail section people, made a list of the "good ones", and then the "savage others" came to take the good ones, including the kid with that teddy bear. The barefoot others shown in that jungle had the teddy bear. Are you telling me the civilized others, who dress up like savage others, are working together with these so-called savage otheres? Ridiculous. It's one group. They SHOWED us that.

And why are people having such a hard time believing they could survive the crash? If the island can cure Rose's cancer and fix Locke's legs, I'd say the normal rules don't apply.


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

NoThru22 said:


> They _showed_ us that Ben, Tom, etc. are the "savage others" with the makeup kits, but people still insist there's another group of people. There may be, but we haven't seen one of them or any evidence of them.


I don't agree with this. In the "Other 48 Days", we are shown feet walking by (some of which are the size and shape of children, IIRC, (one is carrying a stuffed animal). Who ever that was, I don't think they are the same group as the folks who have captured Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.

We don't even know if the group that has our survivor friends are associated with Darma or Hanso at all.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

So when will we find out what happened to Locke, Eko, Desmond, and the rest of the beach Losties? When last we saw them, there was a massive "explosion" or something that seemed to destroy the hatch and turn the sky purple.

And what about Jin, Sun, and Sayid on Desmond's boat, trying to rescue Jack, et al? What was their status when we last saw them? Do they know that Jack's group has been captured?


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

I agree there may be potentially other groups of others on the Island. I don't see why Ben's group would be willing to trek through the jungle barefoot, as was seen by Jin and Eko; that part of the costume isn't necessary.

When coupled with the contamination warning, the (presumed) blood draws, and the vaccinations, and even Rousseau's craziness, it suggests that there could be an illness/virus/ something going on that could make people a bit batty...

What I do NOT recall (I need to go rewatch the Other 48 days) is did Goodwin specifically say the people taken from AL's group were on the list? If so, that would imply the barefoot people were from Ben's group, as Ben mentioned making a list to Goodwin and Ethan, or at least working with Ben's group.


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

devdogaz said:


> So when will we find out what happened to Locke, Eko, Desmond, and the rest of the beach Losties? When last we saw them, there was a massive "explosion" or something that seemed to destroy the hatch and turn the sky purple.
> 
> And what about Jin, Sun, and Sayid on Desmond's boat, trying to rescue Jack, et al? What was their status when we last saw them? Do they know that Jack's group has been captured?


really good points... I wonder the time line of what we just watched vs. what happened back in "the hatch" because when that explosion hit, you'd think that it would effect the area where the other's camp is.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> The letter was from the person who we know as "Sawyer" to the con man Sawyer who conned his mother.
> 
> It's definitely true that "Sawyer" isn't his real name, but the letter didn't mention James Ford at all. That name came from the manifest and there's been no confirmation that he was using his real name for the flight. (Seeing as how he's a con man and was travelling for the express purpose of committing murder, it's easy to see how he might choose to travel under an alias.)


The Sidney Police knew his name was James Ford, they had his arrest record from the U.S. To get that they obviously had to run his prints. I highly doubt that Sawyer had the rescources to fake and identity, prints and all, back in the U.S. His name is Ford, James Ford.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

ducker said:


> really good points... I wonder the time line of what we just watched vs. what happened back in "the hatch" because when that explosion hit, you'd think that it would effect the area where the other's camp is.


What explosion? It doesn't mean there was an explsion just because the broken hatch door flew over to the beach. That could have just been part of the magnetic discharge.


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> I don't agree with this. In the "Other 48 Days", we are shown feet walking by (some of which are the size and shape of children, IIRC, (one is carrying a stuffed animal). Who ever that was, I don't think they are the same group as the folks who have captured Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.
> 
> We don't even know if the group that has our survivor friends are associated with Darma or Hanso at all.


As I said in my post, it's been PROVEN that is the group of people that Goodwin sent to kidnap the kids and good ones.

Quick edit: To Big Daddy, there is no way that Goodwin came and made a list and then a seperate, unrelated group of people came to pick up those castaways.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

hefe said:


> Yes. From the very first episode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not the tattoos I'm asking about. He now has tattoos on his left forearm and bicep.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> The group in the Perl hatch seemed to be told that they were monitoring an experiment, and it was implied that the subjects in the other hatches weren't really doing any useful work.


Is that next to the Fortran Hatch?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> Not the tattoos I'm asking about. He now has tattoos on his left forearm and bicep.


They're there. I just didn't take the time to find several pictures with all the angles.

Here's another from the pilot...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

hefe said:


> Is that next to the Fortran Hatch?


LOL....OK, now I'll give you one guess to name my profession


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> LOL....OK, now I'll give you one guess to name my profession


Proofreader?

Oh, wait...


----------



## scsiguy72 (Nov 25, 2003)

jlb said:


> Excellent episode!!!
> 
> Who will turn out to be Juliet's Romeo?
> 
> Anyone catch any possible Numbers? The only vague one I saw was the 4 pieces of sandwich with the tooth picks. Nothing obvious though.


Jacks Pager laying on the crossword puzzle was: 7:15:23 AM (2 of the numbers)


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

mohler7154 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:
> 
> All of the death's so far on the island have had nothing to do with the others.
> 
> ...


Don't forget:

Arntz was killed by dynamite
Pilot killed by smoke monster/security system/whatever grabbed him from cockpit (something to do with the others)


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> And why are people having such a hard time believing they could survive the crash? If the island can cure Rose's cancer and fix Locke's legs, I'd say the normal rules don't apply.


Maybe they didn't survive the crash. Maybe Dharma technology brought them back to life. Someone already pointed out that Jack woke up away from the crash site. Goodwin appeared right after the crash but we heard them say it might take an hour to get there. Perhaps they have a brief time window in which to revive them.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Juliet's "free will" comment in her exchange with Adam makes me think that she just doesn't like Ben, not that they had a relationship. Perhaps at some point the Others' "community" was an egalitarian group of scientists. Now Ben has turned it into his own authoritarian regime and he alone decides the allocation of their resources, directs them to abduct and experiment on the inevitable humans who crash on the island, etc. Juliet wants them to go back to the days of "free will" or she wants off the island, and she knows she can't leave.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

MacThor said:


> Juliet's "free will" comment in her exchange with Adam makes me think that she just doesn't like Ben, not that they had a relationship. Perhaps at some point the Others' "community" was an egalitarian group of scientists. Now Ben has turned it into his own authoritarian regime and he alone decides the allocation of their resources, directs them to abduct and experiment on the inevitable humans who crash on the island, etc. Juliet wants them to go back to the days of "free will" or she wants off the island, and she knows she can't leave.


This is kind of what I'm thinking. Or at any rate, if they had a romantic relationship, they don't now. It doesn't matter what they were. It only matters what they are. What they are now is unfriendly rivals. (And I don't think this is a situation where she opposes him because a relationship didn't work out; if anything that relationship, if there was one, didn't work out because she opposes him.)

What I expect and hope to see at some point this season is an episode telling what happened back at the Village once Benry was captured. How was the decision made to send Michael to get him back? I'd bet Juliette would have preferred he stay rotting in that cell in the Losties' hatch, and perhaps tried to persuade the group that they were better off without him.

Maybe Benry shut the door on her and left her to drown in the Hydra as retribution for her wanting not to rescue him? (Benry would find out. That weasel Adam would sell her out in a heartbeat.)


----------



## cmaasfamily (Jan 26, 2006)

pallen4215 said:


> just watched the podcast and the guys confirmed there are more than one group of others.
> 
> what bird did we see last season? The guy was asking about the bears, sharks and a "bird?".


We saw the white bird from Charle's religious 'vision' on the beach last season (the one where the smuggler's plane flys in and crashes) fly over in a long shot of the island after the others see the plane break-up.

I don't think this is the Hurley bird as others have mentioned, is it?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

> What I expect and hope to see at some point this season is an episode telling what happened back at the Village once Benry was captured. How was the decision made to send Michael to get him back? I'd bet Juliette would have preferred he stay rotting in that cell in the Losties' hatch, and perhaps tried to persuade the group that they were better off without him.


I always thought that he let himself get captured, in which case there wouldn't have been much reaction back at the village. My guess is that as soon as they caught Michael, it opened the door for the others to let one of their own get captured, knowing they'd eventually get Michael to help him to escape. Thinking on it further, this makes me wonder if Rousseau (sp?) is part of the others. It seems as if everything the 815 "survivors" have had thrown their way is an elaborate setup by Ben's group or Dharma or whomever to see how they'd react. It stands to reason that all of Rousseau's interactions with the group are also part of this master plan. Nothing on this Island is as it seems.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

cmaasfamily said:


> We saw the white bird from Charle's religious 'vision' on the beach last season (the one where the smuggler's plane flys in and crashes) fly over in a long shot of the island after the others see the plane break-up.
> 
> I don't think this is the Hurley bird as others have mentioned, is it?


No, that was a different bird.

BTW, a white bird was seen flying early in the episode when the camera view was panning back to reveal the village on the island.


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

what's this cable people keep talking about??? is it the cable from season 1 that Sayed finds and follows to Roussea? Or was there another cable that was visible this past episode and I just missed it?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

ducker said:


> what's this cable people keep talking about??? is it the cable from season 1 that Sayed finds and follows to Roussea? Or was there another cable that was visible this past episode and I just missed it?


Yes. No.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> BTW, a white bird was seen flying early in the episode when the camera view was panning back to reveal the village on the island.


 Yes, I was surprised that hadn't been mentioned before.

I'm wondering if Lost fans are starting to have some detail-fatigue (white bird, crossword puzzle, etc.) and want to focus more on the big picture.

On the subject of details (I must not be too fatigued), there's a guy with dark hair and a mustache (Latino?) in the hospital hallway scene where Christian is talking on the cell phone and laughing. It looks like the same guy wearing the same clothes is in the AA group scene.


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

oh.. I haven't seen this pointed out... but in one of the earlier hospital scenes.. I believe Rose is sitting down in a chair...


----------



## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

Figaro said:


> Yes. No.


Ah ok... so people are just assuming it's a data cable of some sort going to their camp. As of right now, we really don't know where it's going at all, since Sayed hit a Roussea trap before being able to find the cable's destination.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Yes, I was surprised that hadn't been mentioned before.


It was, in the post he quoted


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ducker said:


> what's this cable people keep talking about??? is it the cable from season 1 that Sayed finds and follows to Roussea? Or was there another cable that was visible this past episode and I just missed it?


In the episode "Solitary."

Sayid follows the cable into the jungle. He is caught in a trap, and awakens to Danielle's interrogation. He didn't follow the cable to her, exactly. IOW, we don't know where the end of it went.

Edit: Need to be quicker on the trigger...


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> It was, in the post he quoted


Okay, I meant before we're 300+ posts into this thread.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

mqpickles said:


> Okay, I meant before we're 300+ posts into this thread.


I forgot the smilie


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> I forgot the smilie


ah.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

The transcript of the episode is already up:
http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/A_Tale_Two_Cities.htm

There's a comment the old lady (who is at the door when Julie burns her hand/muffins) makes to Julie. She's talking about some guy working under the house and says "Still hasn't fixed your plumbing yet?"

Later, when Ben's name is mentioned it's not at all implied that they are an item.

ADAM: It's science-fiction -- now I know why Ben isn't here.

JULIE: Excuse me?

ADAM: I know the host picks the book; but seriously, Julie, he wouldn't read this in the damn bathroom.

JULIE: Well, Adam, I am the host and I do pick the book. And this is my favorite book. So I am absolutely thrilled that you can't stand it. Silly me for sinking so low as to select something that Ben wouldn't like. Here I am thinking that free will still actually exists on...​
She definitely has a bone to pick with him, but I think it has to do with Ben's control over this group, or with his decisions as the leader. It certainly underscores others' suggestions that Julie will end up helping Jack/Kate/Sawyer.



devdogaz said:


> I also got the impression that Benry and Juliet were an item, at least at some point. I'm on vacation so I had to watch live and wasn't able to rewind to confirm what I thought I heard, but during the book club scene, I got the impression that the people were at Juliet and Ben's house by the way they were talking to Juliet and referring to Ben. She then got offended and told them she had picked the book, because they assumed Ben had picked it, because (I thought) they were in Ben's (and Juliet's) house. Of course, it wasn't until the end of the episode that we found out who Ben was, but that's when it hit me that Ben and Juliet are (were?) married.


Edit: sorry for the smeek of the transcript quote.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=48
> 
> I'm not an expert, but that looks like a fake to me, and not a very good one.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> Fool Me Twice said:
> 
> 
> > Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=48
> ...


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

speaking of loose ends/mysteries that have yet to be resolved...

what about cindy... the flight attendant who disappeared. i think that's her name

i hope we find out what happened to walt when he was gone sometime in the next 3 seasons.

still don't know how locke became paralyzed


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> speaking of loose ends/mysteries that have yet to be resolved...
> 
> what about cindy... the flight attendant who disappeared. i think that's her name
> 
> ...


It will really be cool to see how they explain Walt aging 3 years in 70 something days.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wprager said:


> She's talking about some guy working under the house and says "Still hasn't fixed your plumbing yet?"


Not that its relevant to what you are saying, but FYI...the guy under the house is Ethan. After the earthquake, you can see him climbing out from under the house.


----------



## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

Supfreak26 said:


> Are you serious? So your saying they intentionally dripped water from the ceiling because they knew Jack would taste it. And they filled some room with salt water because they knew Jack would try to escape by opening that particular door.
> 
> 
> 
> Not EVERYTHING in this show is a big mystery.


Actually, that is what I am suggesting. He is dehydrated. They are trying to break him. The only water available is salty. He is "figuring out" (or being led to believe) they are in an aquarium. They know Jack, and know he will make an escape attempt (seriously, having him sit 8 feet away from the door is supposed to keep him away from her?). Despite Benry's claims we'll all die, he managed to get out to safety pretty easily, as did Jack and Juliet. This seems like a VERY similar setup as what they did with Sawyer to try to convince him escape is futile. We don't know the exact timeline, but it appears Juliet leaves Jack and very soon thereafter is outside tazing Sawyer. I smell setup.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

pallen4215 said:


> just watched the podcast and the guys confirmed there are more than one group of others.
> 
> what bird did we see last season? The guy was asking about the bears, sharks and a "bird?".


What is this podcast and who are these guys? Like writers and producer guys?

I agree with devdogaz--I thought for some reason Ben and Juliet lived together from the beginning of the book group scene. I see I must have been wrong, but it sounded that way for some reason.

So Benry is saving the world; time is of the essence, and the end justifies the means--sounding more like 24 all the time.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> What is this podcast and who are these guys? Like writers and producer guys?


Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are Executive Producers and writers on the show. Last season they did a podcast, an audio episode to go with every show that you download. This year, it looks like they are doing video instead, which is too bad. Bigger downloads, not portable for most of us, and unnecessary.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So the debate is over? There are 2 groups of others?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hefe said:


> Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are Executive Producers and writers on the show. Last season they did a podcast, an audio episode to go with every show that you download. This year, it looks like they are doing video instead, which is too bad. Bigger downloads, not portable for most of us, and unnecessary.


Not to mention you can't stream them through the Tivo.

Greg


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

hefe said:


> Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are Executive Producers and writers on the show. Last season they did a podcast, an audio episode to go with every show that you download. This year, it looks like they are doing video instead, which is too bad. Bigger downloads, not portable for most of us, and unnecessary.


Not to mention they are both dorky and awkward on camera, and should only be allowed to do audio.


----------



## fredo (Jan 26, 2006)

OK, I've been through the whole thread and didn't see this mentioned at all. In the flashback when Jack is meeting his ex-wife, she asks him where his lawyer is. Then he says, she can have everything, but he just wants to know the other guys name, etc. When she is sitting down, she looks sad, but then she gets up to walk away, toward the camera. It looked like she had a smirk on her face. I don't know if there is any significance there at all and it was just a mistake by the actress or what. But it is something I noticed, and you can kinda see here in this screenshot.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> So the debate is over? There are 2 groups of others?


The quote from the podcast is, "There is more than one faction in The Others." I think people will interpret that differently.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

fredo said:


> OK, I've been through the whole thread and didn't see this mentioned at all. In the flashback when Jack is meeting his ex-wife, she asks him where his lawyer is. Then he says, she can have everything, but he just wants to know the other guys name, etc. When she is sitting down, she looks sad, but then she gets up to walk away, toward the camera. It looked like she had a smirk on her face. I don't know if there is any significance there at all and it was just a mistake by the actress or what. But it is something I noticed, and you can kinda see here in this screenshot.


I noticed that too, and it seemed out of place. My interpretation is that she was proud of herself for getting up and leaving rather than falling into Jack's "we can work it out" trap.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

wprager said:


> Fool Me Twice said:
> 
> 
> > Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=48
> ...


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

mohler7154 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:
> 
> All of the death's so far on the island have had nothing to do with the others.


EDIT: a bit of a smeek.

Ethan killed either Scott or Steve.
Goodwin killed the Tailie that AL thought was an Other.
Ben (or another other) may have killed Henry Gale.
Goodwin was going to kill AL.
The Others attempted to kill Michael, Sawyer and Jin.

etc.


----------



## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> The quote from the podcast is, "There is more than one faction in The Others." I think people will interpret that differently.


Although I was thinking that there were two groups of "Others" very early, I'm not so sure anymore. This statement could be as simple as Juliet not agreeing with Ben.

The ages of people in the Other camp are so varied (yes, no children), it seems to me that they didn't all arrive at the same time. We know they incorporated Alex. It seems that they can't have children and need to recruit to keep their numbers up. They are at least using Dharma's ongoing supply drops (which the web game movie said were set up to come in perpetuity). These people have to be either part of Dharma or subjects of Dharma's experiments.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

fredo said:


> When she is sitting down, she looks sad, but then she gets up to walk away, toward the camera. It looked like she had a smirk on her face. I don't know if there is any significance there at all and it was just a mistake by the actress or what. But it is something I noticed, and you can kinda see here in this screenshot.


(You can watch it at the 12:35 mark here.)

I'm guessing that it was just bad acting. That may have been the only take they had of that shot if it was shot as "coverage" at the end of shooting, but decided it was the one they wanted to use anyway.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

GadgetFreak said:


> Maybe they didn't survive the crash. Maybe Dharma technology brought them back to life. Someone already pointed out that Jack woke up away from the crash site. Goodwin appeared right after the crash but we heard them say it might take an hour to get there. Perhaps they have a brief time window in which to revive them.


The problem with the tail section timeline is that Ana Lucia almost certainly could not be correct when she said Goodwin appeared 10 minutes after the crash. The tail section landed in the water, a fair good distance, and the survivors had to make for shore. With the exception of Our Man Up In The Tree, all other survivors seem to come from the water.

It had to have taken longer than 10 minutes to get to shore, straggle up, help others, etc. Perhaps even an hour or more, depending on currents. So I can see Goodwin getting there at about the right time. Besides, if they knocked everyone out and then revived them then Goodwin would have "woke up" with the Losties. Be rather stupid not too.

As for the fuselage, we don't really know how much time expired between the crash, when Jack woke up, and his run to the crash site. So I'm not ready to say it's not possible for Ethan to have got there without magic medical things like stasis fields, or knockout potions, or whatever else technology.

Hey, maybe Ethan and Goodwin were the most recent winners of the Island Olympics, Marathon Division, Dharma Class.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

When is ABC going to start showing this to us poor SD viewers in 16:9? All of the shots are obviously composed for 16:9 and its painful to see them in 4:3 (especially face close-ups.)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ElJay said:


> When is ABC going to start showing this to us poor SD viewers in 16:9? All of the shots are obviously composed for 16:9 and its painful to see them in 4:3 (especially face close-ups.)


I guess you could watch online after it airs.


----------



## ebf (Mar 21, 2005)

ElJay said:


> When is ABC going to start showing this to us poor SD viewers in 16:9? All of the shots are obviously composed for 16:9 and its painful to see them in 4:3 (especially face close-ups.)


I've been wondering that as well. Combine that with all the commercial breaks, it almost makes me want to not bother watching on TV and just download the high quality posts via BitTorrennt a few hours later!


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Maybe it's early and I'm not thinking clearly, but do we know if benry and the others know about Desmond? And if not, did they not know about "pushing the button?" And if they did not know this, are they as clueless as the survivors as to why the plane crashed? Or should I be assuming that the others KNEW someone was manning the Swan station to prevent the whole EMP-type thing released by the giant magnet?


----------



## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> So the debate is over? There are 2 groups of others?


No, the debate is far from over. In fact, I think it was settled last year when they telegraphed us the answers.

Did everyone forget that Ethan displayed Superman like strength when he beat up Jack and dragged Charlie and Claire through the woods with one hand each?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jradford said:


> but do we know if benry and the others know about Desmond? And if not, did they not know about "pushing the button?"


Well, I don't think we know an answer to either of those, except up until Ben was captured. In Lockdown he definitely learned about pressing the button.

Furthermore, he entered the numbers and then lied about it to Locke. That indicates that either:
1) he knew something would happen if the button wasn't pressed, and he wanted that something to happen, but he DIDN'T want to be around in the hatch when that something happened,
OR
2) hes just curious what will happen, but doesn't want to be the one to figure it out.
OR
3) he doesn't know or care either way, he just wanted to screw with Lockes head


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Did everyone forget that Ethan displayed Superman like strength when he beat up Jack and dragged Charlie and Claire through the woods with one hand each?


Possibly the dragging part (we don't know if he had any help or not), but I don't think the fight with Jack showed much. Jack had taken a nasty tumble down the hill, and possibly hit his head when he landed, and then (as I recall) Ethan gave him a pretty good kick before he could even get up. That's gonna put Ethan at a pretty nice advantage in any fight.

When he tried to get Claire again (when Charlie killed Ethan), as I recall, that was another 1 on 1 fight, and Jack more or less whooped Ethan.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I get:

Only viewers within the United States can watch these full-length episodes.​
How the heck do they know?

Anyhow, I rewatched the scene last night and didn't see anything, but it also looked like I wasn't seeing the full frame. Is it filmed in 16x9 (1.78:1), or is it wider, then cropped left/right for broadcast? Also, I recorded the CTV (Canadian broadcaster) feed, which is 1080i, while ABC's is 720p -- so there is some processing involved.



Fool Me Twice said:


> wprager said:
> 
> 
> > You can see it on the official broadcast. Watch here and seek to the 3:00 mark.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

wprager said:


> I get:
> 
> Only viewers within the United States can watch these full-length episodes.​
> How the heck do they know?
> Probably by your IP address.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

audioscience said:


> wprager said:
> 
> 
> > I get:
> ...


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

wprager said:


> audioscience said:
> 
> 
> > An IP address does not (necessarily) denote location.
> ...


----------



## skinnyjm (Feb 10, 2005)

The "others", apparently led by Benry, are some kind of cult that preys on the mysteries of the island.
We don't know, yet, if Benry is "Him", but he's at least at the top.
But THEY are definately doing some kind of Human behaviour experimentation.

I agree, after seeing the ep, I don't think anyone should have survived a break up at that altitude.
But then again, this island and the area around it are "special".

I will continue to watch this show only because I have to know what in the HELL is going on!!! 

P.S.- Yes, Jack is a Jerk, at least as far as we KNOW.

(all above comments are just my opinion and not necessarily Fact)


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TheMerk said:


> True, it does not denote a specific region, state or city, but IPs are assigned to specific countries. Thus, if ABC wants to lock out everyone but the US, they can with relative 100% certainty.


Hmm, are you sure? IP address blocks are allocated to organizations, which are free to assign individual address from that range to their servers as they see fit. Most organizations will have offices/equipment/personnel in different countries, so determining the country from the IP address may not be possible.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

Sure there are massive companies like FedEx that may have address space that they use all over the globe. However, it's generally pretty easy to determine what country most residential users are from either by reverse DNS or IP address lookup. There are also companies that provide geolocation information on IP addresses based on user input (e.g. "Enter your ZIP code/country to read NYTimes.com")


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

wprager said:


> I get:
> 
> Only viewers within the United States can watch these full-length episodes.​
> How the heck do they know?
> ...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ElJay said:


> Sure there are massive companies like FedEx that may have address space that they use all over the globe. However, it's generally pretty easy to determine what country most residential users are from either by reverse DNS or IP address lookup. There are also companies that provide geolocation information on IP addresses based on user input (e.g. "Enter your ZIP code/country to read NYTimes.com")


Based on user input? Come on! I've selected Vatican City from a drop-down menu once. Companies don't have to be massive to be all over the globe. And a simple lookup won't tell you much either. For example, here's one for www.alcatel.com (using http://cqcounter.com/whois/):
Domain : WWW.ALCATEL.COM

IP address : 164.109.33.86
ISP : Digex, Incorporated.
Organization : Digex, Incorporated.
Location : US US, United States
City : Beltsville, MD 20705
Latitude : 39°05'04" North
Longitude : 76°90'55" West​
Alcatel is a French company (although it has offices in 130+ countries). The information above, though, shows the location of their ISP.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

I am probably totally smeeking here, but I don't have time to read the whole thread (sorry!).

My question is this - was the book they were reading during the book club "The Stand"? It was definately a Stephen King book, but I couldn't catch the title...thanks!


----------



## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

nyny523 said:


> I am probably totally smeeking here, but I don't have time to read the whole thread (sorry!).
> 
> My question is this - was the book they were reading during the book club "The Stand"? It was definately a Stephen King book, but I couldn't catch the title...thanks!


That seems to be the consensus here.


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

It was Carrie.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

drew2k said:


> That seems to be the consensus here.


Apparently, you don't have time to read the whole thread either.  As Figaro said, it was Carrie. Sometime on Wednesday night, I even posted links to a few images showing it.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

wprager said:


> Alcatel is a French company (although it has offices in 130+ countries). The information above, though, shows the location of their ISP.


Probably because Digex is hosting their ".com" website and owns that IP address? www.alcatel.com is hosted in Washington, DC, so why would they want to block that? (Though I doubt many people are going to be browsing the internet from a webserver to watch a Lost episode.)

Alcatel has a bunch of different address space, for example:

inetnum: 193.57.6.0 - 193.57.6.255
netname: ALCATEL-FR
descr: Alcanet International
descr: 1 r Ampère 91300 MASSY, France
country: FR

OrgName: ALCATEL NETWORK SERVICES
OrgID: ANS-2
Address: 3 LUDLOW DRIVE
City: POUGHKEEPSIE
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 12603
Country: US
NetRange: 192.160.6.0 - 192.160.6.255

inetnum: 194.113.59.0 - 194.113.59.255
netname: ALCANET-DE3
descr: Alcanet International Deutschland GmbH
descr: Lorenzstr. 10
descr: D-70435 Stuttgart
country: DE

Like I said, I'm pretty sure that ABC is primarily trying to block foreign residential users, not a few people at work in an international corporation who might try to watch the episode on their lunchbreak.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

wprager said:


> Fool Me Twice said:
> 
> 
> > Someone at Sledgeweb's forum noticed a car in this picture from Lost Media. Almost certainly a mere production error, but a nice catch anyway. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1163&pos=48
> ...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Jericho Dog said:


> wprager said:
> 
> 
> > You can spot a fake tree also waaaaaayyyy over there by the car also.
> ...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> Jericho Dog said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just not getting the pop-culture references, so to quote Buzz Lightyear, "Are you mocking me?" I fnot, then I apologize for thinking that you were.
> ...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ElJay said:


> Like I said, I'm pretty sure that ABC is primarily trying to block foreign residential users, not a few people at work in an international corporation who might try to watch the episode on their lunchbreak.


I tried going through my ISP (Rogers Cable in Canada) as well as through the Alcatel server -- same difference. I'm going to ask a couple of buddies who know this stuff better than I do.


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## Supfreak26 (Dec 12, 2003)

vman said:


> Actually, that is what I am suggesting. He is dehydrated. They are trying to break him. The only water available is salty. He is "figuring out" (or being led to believe) they are in an aquarium. They know Jack, and know he will make an escape attempt (seriously, having him sit 8 feet away from the door is supposed to keep him away from her?). Despite Benry's claims we'll all die, he managed to get out to safety pretty easily, as did Jack and Juliet. This seems like a VERY similar setup as what they did with Sawyer to try to convince him escape is futile. We don't know the exact timeline, but it appears Juliet leaves Jack and very soon thereafter is outside tazing Sawyer. I smell setup.


Wow. I smell something but it doesn't smell like setup. 

Seriously though, while your idea is interesting, I find it so unbelievable that if this does become the case, I will delete my SP forever.


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## Jericho Dog (Feb 10, 2006)

wprager said:


> I'm just not getting the pop-culture references, so to quote Buzz Lightyear, "Are you mocking me?" If not, then I apologize for thinking that you were.


I pretty much mock everyone, so it's not you in particular.

If you think I'm mocking you, just wait till you smeek! They the 'others' will let you have it!!




wprager said:


> I just thought that the car in the picture was half behind a bush, and half in front -- but it was the same bush. It just looked fake to me. I tried re-watching it (in high-def) but it was either somehow reframed or it simply wasn't there -- I did not see anything resembling a white spot in the lower-right corner. I admit that I spent less time looking for it than it will take to post this, so perhaps I really should just go back to reading this newsgroup instead of trying to contribute.


Don't do that!

I love this Thread BECAUSE of the people that dig into this stuff and post all their observations and crazy theories. (there I go again!)
I could hurt my brain trying to figure all this out but it's much more fun to read.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wprager said:


> I just thought that the car in the picture was half behind a bush, and half in front -- but it was the same bush. It just looked fake to me. I tried re-watching it (in high-def) but it was either somehow reframed or it simply wasn't there -- I did not see anything resembling a white spot in the lower-right corner.


Nope, its in there. Granted, I don't have HD, so I don't have the original broadcast that I recorded firsthand. However, I downloaded an HD recording off of bittorrent, and the car is definitely in there. I seriously doubt someone photoshopped the car into the moving video, so I'm going to say this is authentic.

Unless what you were trying to say is that the producers edited the car into the episode before airing, and that it wasn't actually there when they filmed the shot, but I didn't get the impression that that was what you were saying.


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

So here's my question:

It's pretty much given that:
a) the button really did do something. I.e. not pushing it caused the plane to crash. It is unknown if the earthquake prior to the plane crash was the result of not pushing the button, or from the 'failsafe', though.
b) Benry & the rest reacted to the plane crash, yet didn't really react (that we saw) to the 'failsafe'/button earthquake. this would imply they at least knew about the Hatch. 

Why did the 'Others' allow the hatch to be manned by non-'Others'? If it is really important that the button is pushed, then why not have a rotating schedule of 'Others' pushing the button? Aren't you risking exactly what happened by allowing the button to be manned by people that have no idea what is going on?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

mcdougll said:


> It is unknown if the earthquake prior to the plane crash was the result of not pushing the button, or from the 'failsafe', though.


No, desmond did not use the failsafe when the plane crashed. We saw last episode of season 2 that desmond was out, he came in, the alarm was going off, then the hatch started shaking, the speaker was saying "system failure", the numbers turned all red hieroglyphics, and metal objects started flying. He typed in the numbers and hit execute and nothing happened. He repeated this several times, and eventually the countdown resumed and everything went back to normal. He never used the key.



> Benry & the rest reacted to the plane crash, yet didn't really react (that we saw) to the 'failsafe'/button earthquake. this would imply they at least knew about the Hatch.


I don't think anything was implied about their knowledge of the hatch. They did react to the earthquake...they took cover, then came out when it was over to see what was going on. Most of them looked confused to me...looking around at each other to see if everyone was all right, etc.

The one exception was Ben. He walked out glanced around, then started walking around looking at the sky BEFORE the sound of the plane. It seemed as if he was expecting to see something in the sky. However, I'm not sure so a plane was what he was expecting. Maybe he knew something about the flash, and THAT was what he expected to see. I tried looking at Bens reaction to the flash at end of season 2. He did react a little different than everyone else...they immediatly covered their ears ducked down a little. He initially just kept looking, and then it almost looked like he had an "uh oh" look. He eventually covered his ears, but his eyes never looked away.

It hard to say what he knew or thought, but from those 2 scenes, it seemed he knew SOMETHING that the rest of the "others" didn't.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Unless what you were trying to say is that the producers edited the car into the episode before airing, and that it wasn't actually there when they filmed the shot, but I didn't get the impression that that was what you were saying.


No, I'm not that like that. I've got friends who are like that, but it hasn't rubbed off on me. Yet.

OK, the car was there.

What model and year was it?


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

The next episode will deal with the backstory of the car. Apparently, Jack's father and the car were having a fling, and while out together they ran over Locke, who was on his way to work at Hurley's box factory, injuring Locke badly. Locke ended up in a wheelchair, Jack's father fell off the wagon (again) and the car decided that the only way to redeem itself was to enter a race around the world. However, somewhere over the Pacific, the car was pulled into the island by a strange and powerful magnetic force. The car was soon captured by the Others and forced to live in a cage, until recently when it escaped while Juliet was bringing it a grilled cheese sandwich...

Oops! Spoiler alert!


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## Vito the TiVo (Oct 27, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I don't think anything was implied about their knowledge of the hatch.


I still think that they didn't know about the hatches. I still think Goodwin was surprised as the rest of them when the Tailies found the Arrow hatch.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Figaro said:


> 75 posts is awful soon to be getting a chip on ones shoulder. Calm down and don't take things so seriously. It's only the intarweb.


OK, I'll calm down and not take things so seriously. Right after this:

What does the number of posts have to do with anything? Time is not measured in posts (but if anyone is interested, I've been reading these boards for almost two years). Or is the worth of an opinion proportional to how freely or frequently it is expressed? If E.F. Hutton couldn't keep his mouth closed, would people have been still listening?


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> OK, I'll calm down and not take things so seriously. Right after this:
> 
> What does the number of posts have to do with anything? Time is not measured in posts (but if anyone is interested, I've been reading these boards for almost two years). Or is the worth of an opinion proportional to how freely or frequently it is expressed? If E.F. Hutton couldn't keep his mouth closed, would people have been still listening?


Well with a reasonably recent join date and only a limited number of actual interactions in the forum I am pretty sure that it is rather early to be developing chip.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Figaro said:


> Well with a reasonably recent join date and only a limited number of actual interactions in the forum I am pretty sure that it is rather early to be developing chip.


Don't be too sure (or too snobby). I personally have read through several message boards for 2 years or more before deciding to create an account and participate. Not everyone signs up for everything the instant they discover it.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

After 75 posts he immediately started saying that he was going to stop posting and leave. Doesn't that seem a wee bit sudden?


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

...and some of us see no need to post things that have already addressed by every other poster. Many of us would rather just read and not actively participate than smeek.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Figaro said:


> After 75 posts he immediately started saying that he was going to stop posting and leave. Doesn't that seem a wee bit sudden?


I said I would take your advice to calm down and not take things too seriously. You really ought to slow down on the _posting_, and take a little more time with the _reading_.

Anyhow, enough with this; this is a Lost thread, is it not?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

wprager said:


> Anyhow, enough with this; this is a Lost thread, is it not?


Well, now it is...


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> I said I would take your advice to calm down and not take things too seriously. You really ought to slow down on the _posting_, and take a little more time with the _reading_.
> 
> Anyhow, enough with this; this is a Lost thread, is it not?


Hey if you don't want the train to go off the tracks then don't pull the lever.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'd have to watch again, but it seems to me that the view that the Others had from their village of the plane splitting apart was out of synch with the view we've seen of the tail section crashing into the water by the beach, the one we first saw in "The Other 48 Days." In that one, it seemed that the tail section came zooming in from over the ocean with no land in sight. From the village, it looked like it was flying over the island. Am I remembering these scenes correctly?

So why did Ben find it necessary to use a fake name in the first place? What use would the information have been to Jack, Locke, et. al. if he had revealed his real name? He obviously didn't count on them digging up the grave - unless that was part of his plan all along, which I don't think makes sense - because they didn't need to find the real Henry Gale's ID to determine that it wasn't his wife.

It all makes me wonder what the Others' definition of "good" is. They're the "good guys." They make a list of the "good ones" to capture.


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> No, desmond did not use the failsafe when the plane crashed. We saw last episode of season 2 that desmond was out, he came in, the alarm was going off, then the hatch started shaking, the speaker was saying "system failure", the numbers turned all red hieroglyphics, and metal objects started flying. He typed in the numbers and hit execute and nothing happened. He repeated this several times, and eventually the countdown resumed and everything went back to normal. He never used the key.
> 
> I don't think anything was implied about their knowledge of the hatch. They did react to the earthquake...they took cover, then came out when it was over to see what was going on. Most of them looked confused to me...looking around at each other to see if everyone was all right, etc.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I mis-remembered. 
Still, the implication is that these people are the remnants (descendants?) of the original Dharma Initiative. How/Why exactly did they abandon the hatch/pushing the button? Given that not pushing the button apparently caused the plane to crash, "The Button" is not just a psychological experiment that they've stopped monitoring. It served a vital function.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I'd have to watch again, but it seems to me that the view that the Others had from their village of the plane splitting apart was out of synch with the view we've seen of the tail section crashing into the water by the beach, the one we first saw in "The Other 48 Days." In that one, it seemed that the tail section came zooming in from over the ocean with no land in sight. From the village, it looked like it was flying over the island. Am I remembering these scenes correctly?


IIRC, we didn't necessarily see the tail section in the opening scenes of this episode. Remember from the pilot, the tail section broke off first, and in this episode we saw the plane streak in from the edge of the frame and it already appeared to be breaking up. It's possible that the tail section was already falling outside of what we saw in the frame.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I'd have to watch again, but it seems to me that the view that the Others had from their village of the plane splitting apart was out of synch with the view we've seen of the tail section crashing into the water by the beach, the one we first saw in "The Other 48 Days." In that one, it seemed that the tail section came zooming in from over the ocean with no land in sight. From the village, it looked like it was flying over the island. Am I remembering these scenes correctly?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cool, thanks. I guess if there's an inlet like it appears in the last picture, that could be why it looked from the village like the tail section was passing over land, but from the beach it looked like it was coming in from where there was no land.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

It seemed odd to me too, at first. But the angle is possible, if that part of the island jutted out into the ocean. And it seems from the bottom capture picture that it _could_ be.

_whoops - a little late on sending ..._

The other thing this sequence shows is that it completely blows apart the theory that the crash was staged (if you'll pardon the expression). The plane broke up, it crashed, and the survivors survived.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Delta13 said:


> The other thing this sequence shows is that it completely blows apart the theory that the crash was staged (if you'll pardon the expression). The plane broke up, it crashed, and the survivors survived.


Unless the Others have all had their memories tampered with.


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## peitsche (Nov 13, 2002)

hefe said:


> You can pause it, but you can't rewind or go forward. And it is not subscribable.
> 
> It is a horrible, horrible change. And it is NOT a podcast if it's not in an RSS feed.
> 
> I think I may sign on there just to complain about that.


hefe, I totally agree. the audio podcasts are much more handy when on the road (by that I mean out of the house, really). also, I don't have a video ipod (or any other Ipod, for that matter)...but oh well...

anyway, on a related note, I just listened to the May 8 podcast about the "?" episode and I found Damon's (or Carlton's) answer to a fan question very interesting. check it out (the question starts at 25min 26sec into it) and keep in mind that this was before the season 2 finale, let alone the season 3 opener. they made fun of the outrageous speculation about a possible underwater hatch and laughed it off...anyway, I found it noteworthy that they would read that question/speculation and dismiss it pretty much when it came awfully close to future unfolding events...

I just tried to find a link to the "old" audio podcasts on abc. com but couldn't find it...


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## johnperkins21 (Aug 29, 2005)

Vito the TiVo said:


> I still think that they didn't know about the hatches. I still think Goodwin was surprised as the rest of them when the Tailies found the Arrow hatch.


They did know about the hatches. They used the medical hatch to change clothes, that little fake village they took Micheal to had a hatch, and they know an awful lot about the one/s Jack, Kate, and Sawyer are at. Maybe they found them all within the span of a few days, but that doesn't seem likely.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

hefe said:


> Well, now it is...


LOL. I was thinking the same thing.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Unless the Others have all had their memories tampered with.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

johnperkins21 said:


> They did know about the hatches. They used the medical hatch to change clothes, that little fake village they took Micheal to had a hatch


No it didn't. It turned out to be fake. Everything in/about that village turned out to be faked.

But they do know about the hatches. Goodwin acting surprised isn't... surprising. He was an infiltrator! What is he supposed to do? When they got there, would he say, "Oh, this is the arrow hatch. I've been here before."?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> No it didn't. It turned out to be fake. Everything in/about that village turned out to be faked.
> 
> But they do know about the hatches. Goodwin acting surprised isn't... surprising. He was an infiltrator! What is he supposed to do? When they got there, would he say, "Oh, this is the arrow hatch. I've been here before."?


Eh.. he really did look surprised.. IMHO, not just for the sake of the other people.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mcdougll said:


> Yeah, I mis-remembered.
> Still, the implication is that these people are the remnants (descendants?) of the original Dharma Initiative.


We heard a confirmation from Juliette that they're remnants/descendants of Dharma - Jack asked her if they were all that was left of Dharma, and she said "It doesn't matter what we were - it matters who we are now" (or something close to that). The group (or at least part of it) used to be Dharma.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

That's not a confirmation. This is Lost, remember?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

While we know that the others knew about at least some of the hatches (and used to be Dharma), we don't know _for sure_ that they knew about the location of the Swan hatch (or the Arrow hatch). Maybe Locke was right, and Benry was trying to find the Swan hatch (but didn't know where it was)..

Two other thoughts crossed my mind:
1) If there's no strange time-travel thing going on, then we should be able to figure out how long it's been since anyone has been down in the ? hatch, since there was a plane on it.. Nope, I forgot that the plane was stuck in the tree.. Well, at the very least, we know no one was in the ? hatch between the time of the plane falling and when Locke and Eko moved it.. (Edited before posting)

2) Kelvin was part of Dharma (as was his predecessor - I forget his name.. Kazinski?), and they were drawing a map of the hatches from the island.. That map had stuff like "I am here" on it, which makes it feel like it wasn't common Dharma knowledge where all of the hatches were.. (i.e. it wasn't in some convenient 3-ring binder.. unless it was, and they were just trying to set up the map for someone to find, and were trying to make it look like it was all a mystery). So it's still possible that mayyyyybe Henry didn't know where the Swan hatch was.

Another thing worth thinking about again.. One of the following is true:
A) Henry knew that pressing the button really did something, and didn't want it to continue.
OR
B) Henry thought the button was actually fake (yet pushed it anyway, and then told Locke he didn't).

B seems rather strange, because why push the button if you think it's fake.. He'd have to have some reason, like thinking that _SOMETHING_ would happen, and wanting Locke to see it (like confetti dropping from the ceiling saying "yay, you stopped pressing the button!"). Doubt that. So that leaves A. Why did Henry want the button to stop being pressed?

(Did he even know about the failsafe downstairs?)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

hefe said:


> That's not a confirmation. This is Lost, remember?


 So true.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> While we know that the others knew about at least some of the hatches (and used to be Dharma), we don't know _for sure_ that they knew about the location of the Swan hatch (or the Arrow hatch). Maybe Locke was right, and Benry was trying to find the Swan hatch (but didn't know where it was)..
> 
> Two other thoughts crossed my mind:
> 1) If there's no strange time-travel thing going on, then we should be able to figure out how long it's been since anyone has been down in the ? hatch, since there was a plane on it.. Nope, I forgot that the plane was stuck in the tree.. Well, at the very least, we know no one was in the ? hatch between the time of the plane falling and when Locke and Eko moved it.. (Edited before posting)
> ...


Perhaps getting Locke not to press the button was his escape plan? He had saved Locke's life, so Locke would have helped him get outside when the hatch started to implode. Then he could make a run for it, knowing that Locke couldn't keep up due to his injured leg. I'd have to watch again to make sure that that's even a plausible theory.

I think it's extremely unlikely that Henry didn't know all about it. Among other things, he was way too calm and deliberate just moments after an "earthquake" and a plane being torn into pieces right over their heads. He seemed to understand exactly what was happening.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> I think it's extremely unlikely that Henry didn't know all about it. Among other things, he was way too calm and deliberate just moments after an "earthquake" and a plane being torn into pieces right over their heads. He seemed to understand exactly what was happening.


Remember, these people have been living on a creepy island and have probably seen too many wierd things that some of them are too jaded to not be calm when a plane breaks up during an earthquake.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> 2) Kelvin was part of Dharma (as was his predecessor - I forget his name.. Kazinski?)


It seemed to me that Kelvin was as much part of Dharma as Desmond was. It seems he was waylaid into service as well. That still doesn't explain the reasoning behind his deception, but I bet we'll see Kelvin Inman again.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

NoThru22 said:


> It seemed to me that Kelvin was as much part of Dharma as Desmond was. It seems he was waylaid into service as well. That still doesn't explain the reasoning behind his deception, but I bet we'll see Kelvin Inman again.


I wouldn't be surprised to see him again either.. As for how he joined, he _did_ say that he "joined", rather than "was dragged from the beach"..



> DESMOND: Why did you leave your army, Kelvin, huh?
> 
> INMAN: Because men followed my orders. Ah, but then thank God I joined the Dharma Initiative. Namaste, thank you, and good luck. {he laughs}


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> but I bet we'll see Kelvin Inman again.


You mean, in a flashback? I thought Desmond shot Kelvin.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

aindik said:


> You mean, in a flashback? I thought Desmond shot Kelvin.


No he just cracked his head on some rocks.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Figaro said:


> No he just cracked his head on some rocks.


I stand corrected. But, regardless, Kelvin is dead. Right?


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Kelvin is dead, I'm sure of it, but he also appeared in Sayid's flashbacks. I don't think we've seen the last of him... in the flashbacks.

Jeff, that dialogue does indicate that he was a member of Dharma, but he still didn't seem to be completely on the inside. He was obviously still part of the social experiment.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Hey, with Lost even a confirmation isn't always a confirmation!

I was a member of the Air Force - I even joined - but they didn't tell me very much. Nor was I included in policy. I was even stuck in a locked area while doing my job sometimes. You may be familiar with the phrase "Shut up and soldier." 

I imagine Kelvin's position was very similiar ...


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## Dreaday (Sep 21, 2006)

who was that kid in the cage with sawyer? I can not wait to see what the rest of the gang does and how they are going to rescue their crew


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see him again either.. As for how he joined, he _did_ say that he "joined", rather than "was dragged from the beach"..
> 
> DESMOND: Why did you leave your army, Kelvin, huh?
> 
> INMAN: Because men followed my orders. Ah, but then thank God I joined the Dharma Initiative. Namaste, thank you, and good luck. {he laughs}


His thankfulness seemed to be quite sarcastic (mockingly quoting the goodbye greeting from the orientation film), so perhaps his comment about joining was sarcastic as well. Kind of like: "I got stranded on this island and lucky me had the *cough* honor *cough* of joining the Dharma Initiative."


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

aindik said:


> You mean, in a flashback? I thought Desmond shot Kelvin.


As someone mentioned, Desmond knocked Kelvin down and he cracked his head on the rocks. The person that was shot was Kelvin's predecessor, who put a gun in his own mouth and left his brains on the ceiling of the hatch.


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## Dreaday (Sep 21, 2006)

Why is this show so GOOD!


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## Dreaday (Sep 21, 2006)

Okay actually lost is making me mad....why are they doing what they tell them? they don't even do what Jack tells them and now we just follow these people...whats the motivation?


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Dreaday said:


> ...whats the motivation?


The taser!


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> As someone mentioned, Desmond knocked Kelvin down and he cracked his head on the rocks. The person that was shot was Kelvin's predecessor, who put a gun in his own mouth and left his brains on the ceiling of the hatch.


At least, that's what Kelvin said he did....


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## Dreaday (Sep 21, 2006)

markz said:


> The taser!


lol I guess thats is good motiviation


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