# Series 3 does not allow transfers!!!



## aliweb1 (Jun 22, 2006)

My husband and I made the leap & purchased a Series 3 for each other for Christmas. We are migrating from Direct TV to Comcast Digital Cable just for the Series 3. It is all hooked up & activated. JUST FOUND OUT IT DOES NOT ALLOW MULT1 ROOM VIEWING!!! What is that about?  

We bought this fancy & expensive Tivo to get the latest & best technology, the ability to record in HD, AND TO BE ABLE TO TRANSFER SHOWS FROM ONE UNIT TO THE OTHER (we put the old series 2 in the bedroom). NOW I FIND OUT SERIES 3 DOES NOT ALLOW TRANSFERS. I CANNOT BELIEVE IT! :down: 

Had I known this, I would have purchased another series 2 until they got their act together...what a Tivo disappointment! My trust & estimation of this company has plummeted.


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## mr_pink (Dec 15, 2006)

Or you could have spent 5 minutes researching your new fancy expensive purchase and knew this beforehand ..

from the FAQ on this site:

*Does the S3 have all of the features found on the S2/S2DT?*

Not quite. 8.0.1a is similar to the feature set found in 7.2. Features introduced in later S2 software updates, such as Recently Deleted, One-Touch Delete, KidZone, TiVoCast, etc, are scheduled to be added in a late 2006 release. *Also, at this time, networking features such as Multi-Room Viewing, TiVoToGo, and TiVoToComeBack are not supported.*


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

It still amazes me that people will go and drop huge amounts of money on anything without doing the least bit research on what they are buying.

aliweb1, just to save you a further rant, it doesn't do DirecTV either.


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

If you really want to rant, at least rant effectively. Rant against DRM. (Digital Rights Management) That's the crap that's holding back innovation and availability. If it wasn't for DRM, we could have the eSATA ports enabled. We'd be free to move content anywhere we want and display it on any device we want. Our equipment would be able to interact consistently and reliably. (Ever have to unplug/replug your HDMI or DVI cable because something went wrong with the authorization procedure?)

Those features you love so much on your S2 unit weren't available when the product line launched.

Any why are you mad at Tivo when _YOU_ failed to do basic research before making a major purchase? Tivo never said the S3 could do the things you wanted. You assumed. The S3 is for HD. That's why people buy it. They don't buy it for the fancy display or the dual tuners. They'd buy it if it was a single-tuner box because it does HD. They'd complain but they'd buy it.

The S3 has the potential to offer the features you want and it can be upgraded via software to provide those features in the future but they're not available now and they're not advertised as being available.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

even if it DID allow transfers, you couldn't transfer a HD show to a SD box, regardless if they had the feature turned on or not


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## Horrortaxi (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm sorry you got an unpleasant surprise, but it's not exactly a secret that S3 doesn't have those features. It took me about 15 seconds to navigate to the FAQ on Tivo's site and find where it says that Series 3 doesn't support multi-room viewing, TivoToGo, Satellite, cable boxes, or on demand/pay per view. I definitely made sure I was as informed as possible before I dropped a thousand bucks on the thing. Who wouldn't?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MrPink said:


> Or you could have spent 5 minutes researching your new fancy expensive purchase and knew this beforehand ..
> 
> from the FAQ on this site:
> 
> ...


Just Shut up! This is the problem with the advertising of the Series 3. It's deceptive in that it doesn't state an incompatiblility with Series 2 TiVo's on the box in large enough type to get the point across. It was a bad marketing decision to not make this a point in the store and on the box. Everything you need to know about a product short of user reviews should be on the box.

I'm certain you research everything you buy before you get it and are never surprised when a product doesn't perform as expected.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Just Shut up! This is the problem with the advertising of the Series 3. It's deceptive in that it doesn't state an incompatiblility with Series 2 TiVo's on the box in large enough type to get the point across. It was a bad marketing decision to not make this a point in the store and on the box. Everything you need to know about a product short of user reviews should be on the box.


It isn't listed on the box. So you'd require them to list everything the S3 doesn't do?



Stormspace said:


> I'm certain you research everything you buy before you get it and are never surprised when a product doesn't perform as expected.


Before I drop $800, I'd check out the features it has, especially if I were buying it because of its ability to transfer shows (the OP said she bought it for 3 things, probably should have checked to make sure it did those 3 things).


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## supasta (May 6, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I'm certain you research everything you buy before you get it and are never surprised when a product doesn't perform as expected.


I would hope so. I know I do, especially if it sets me back $800+

I would also clarify that the S3 should not be "expected" to have these features, and that it is clearly stated in the information about the product that these features are not included.

One cannot assume that these features are included. Although it seems reasonable to assume that they are, it is the root cause of the problem here.


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Just Shut up! This is the problem with the advertising of the Series 3. It's deceptive in that it doesn't state an incompatiblility with Series 2 TiVo's on the box in large enough type to get the point across. It was a bad marketing decision to not make this a point in the store and on the box. Everything you need to know about a product short of user reviews should be on the box.
> 
> I'm certain you research everything you buy before you get it and are never surprised when a product doesn't perform as expected.


They made it pretty plain on their website. They don't put much of anything on their box, but a nice Tivo logo.

Actually I have to agree on the research thing. While I don't research small purchases I make, I do research any large purchase I make. So anything over $100 for sure gets researched. Anything under it depends on what it is. If it is software I always research that. But before I bought the S3 I did extensive research on it so I knew what I was getting into. Researched my TV the same way. Now I will admit when we bought our home theatre we did not research the receiver because we already knew what Yamaha could do and knew that was the way wanted to go. Same with the DVD burner, we entrusted the BB guy for that decision...and before you say BB guys are bad, we found the one guy in DE BB that actually knew what the heck he was talking about (he was a college student going for computers and researched all the latest technology). We always asked for him and he would help us...man I miss that...now I have to do some of this research


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Everybody looks at the website before making a purchase.  Riiight. 

The point is that it should have been made clear that TiVo 3 and TiVo 2 are incompatible, the same way VHS and Betamax were. It's not unheard of for manufacturers to disclose this information. In this case however it was planned to be compatible but for whatever reason turned out not to be. I think a simple adhesive label advertising this large incompatibility would have been warranted.

My advice. Return it. And then let TiVo know why you returned it.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

In her defense, there are not many technological products that REMOVE features in a newer model. Can you imagine getting a new ipod that all the sudden won't let you view photos anymore? 

She should have done the research, but this is not good business practice...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> In her defense, there are not many technological products that REMOVE features in a newer model. Can you imagine getting a new ipod that all the sudden won't let you view photos anymore?
> 
> She should have done the research, but this is not good business practice...


A better example is an iPod that doesn't play aac files purchased before a certain date.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> The point is that it should have been made clear that TiVo 3 and TiVo 2 are incompatible, the same way VHS and Betamax were. It's not unheard of for manufacturers to disclose this information.


Incompatible? VHS and Betamax were incompatible because they used different standards. The S3 can't talk to the S2 because that feature is currently disabled. Flip the switch and enable MRV, and they can communicate. They are not incompatible.



Stormspace said:


> In this case however it was planned to be compatible but for whatever reason turned out not to be. I think a simple adhesive label advertising this large incompatibility would have been warranted.
> 
> My advice. Return it. And then let TiVo know why you returned it.


It's been said numerous times here that Tivo needs CableLabs approval for TTG and MRV (at least for digital cable). You can recommend returning it and yelling at Tivo. It won't do anything to speed up CableLabs approval.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

My point here is that it is clear that TiVo knew the S3 would be incompatible with S2 models, yet instead of making the B&M purchasers aware of this with a short description on the box, they decided to rely on people keeping it once they found out about the incompatiblity. That my friends is bad business. You don't rely on peoples ignorance to sell your product unless you are selling a cell phone plan, insurance, or long distance plans. No one likes getting the shaft from the fine print, especially when it's not on the box to begin with.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Incompatible? VHS and Betamax were incompatible because they used different standards. The S3 can't talk to the S2 because that feature is currently disabled. Flip the switch and enable MRV, and they can communicate. They are not incompatible.
> 
> It's been said numerous times here that Tivo needs CableLabs approval for TTG and MRV (at least for digital cable). You can recommend returning it and yelling at Tivo. It won't do anything to speed up CableLabs approval.


There is no guarantee that anything you've said will happen. Not even TiVo is promising anything. At this time it's incompatible and because TiVo can't make those guarantees it should have disclosed the incompaibility up front and on the freaking box.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> There is no guarantee that anything you've said will happen. Not even TiVo is promising anything. At this time it's incompatible and because TiVo can't make those guarantees it should have disclosed the incompaibility up front and on the freaking box.


Where did TiVo disclosed that a program transfered to a Humax DVD TiVo could not be burned to a DVD, as a program that was recorded on the Humax DVD TiVo can be??

Some of these limitations are trickey but I do agree that one should not expect LESS than former and older model TiVos delivered, without a big black box warning.

Most people (not the people posting on this BB of course) buy on impulse or an ad they saw, my wife is mad because a new 42 Sony CC HDTV does not have PIP, never thought about it before I purchased it as most (I thought all, stupid me) high end TVs had that feature.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

What is the saying?

A fool is soon parted with his money?

Sorry OP - your fault for not checking.

End of discussion.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> What is the saying?
> 
> A fool is soon parted with his money?
> 
> ...


Holy smokes, we agree 

Sorry Stormspace, we all know what happens when people make assumptions. Now maybe we're the anal type, since we spend time not only researching our toys, but posting about them after we've bought them (please lets not start the "the Tivo isn't a toy" debate from last week again!), but before I drop a bunch of money on anything, I'm going to at least do a little reading...


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> there are not many technological products that REMOVE features in a newer model


Therefore many consumers will be shocked and dismayed when they find out that one of the most important features was removed. Yada yada yada.

While all that may be true, we get very little opportunity here to heap abuse on posters, and I think you're being a killjoy to introduce reason into the insult-fest.


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## ctakim (May 7, 2006)

What a friendly bunch! I'm sure the OP feels much better after multiple people strive to make the point of how stupid she is. 

To the OP, I'm sorry you were abused in this forum. I think that it is a minority of forum members, but there are folks who are merciless towards any post that has a hint of negativity or disappointment with the S3 (and you all know who you are!).


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## Granzella (Sep 13, 2006)

Does Tivo offer a 30 day money back if you dont like it?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Holy smokes, we agree
> 
> Sorry Stormspace, we all know what happens when people make assumptions. Now maybe we're the anal type, since we spend time not only researching our toys, but posting about them after we've bought them (please lets not start the "the Tivo isn't a toy" debate from last week again!), but before I drop a bunch of money on anything, I'm going to at least do a little reading...


I agree, but deriding someone for exhibiting standard consumer practice is like blaming the weather for a bad day. 

edit: I mixed my metaphors.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> edit: I mixed my metaphors.


Well, we'd get on you about that, but we have bigger fish to fry.

For now.


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## mr_pink (Dec 15, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I agree, but deriding someone for exhibiting standard consumer practice is like blaming the weather for a bad day.
> 
> edit: I mixed my metaphors.


If standard consumer practice is paying $800 for something without knowing what it does - then I need to quit my Fing job and start marketing an $800 clock radio or something, pronto. People will assume because I'm charging them $800 it will grow legs, hop off the nightstand, crawl into my bed and shake me awake in the morning.

Ill even make sure I don't write "THIS PRODUCT DOES NOT GROW LEGS AND CRAWL INTO YOUR BED" on the outside of the box, just to be really extra scummy to my consumers.

I'm obviously making an enormously out of proportion comparison .. but really ..

Why would you even expect an HD DVR to be compatible with an SD one? Even if it was a feature it would really only be useful in one direction.

Why would anyone expect a device that encodes digital content bit for bit identical to the source to have the same do-whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-with-it feature flexibility as one that just reencodes an analog signal?

Why should Tivo be responsible for looking into a crystal ball and imagining what every consumer on the planet is going to assume their device does just so they can write it all out on the outside of the box? Would it even fit? maybe they could superglue a dictionary sized disclamer to the top ..?

What product manufacturer would do this for any product? "Hi, I'm the new VP of Marketing and I've got a great idea .. LETS WRITE ALL OVER THE BOX EVERYTHING OUR PRODUCT DOESNT DO! WE CAN EVEN WRITE ON THE BOX WHICH PRODUCTS DO WHAT WE DO BETTER! ITS ALL ABOUT HELPING THE CONSUMER!"


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## IzzyB68 (Dec 8, 2006)

Redux said:


> Therefore many consumers will be shocked and dismayed when they find out that one of the most important features was removed. Yada yada yada.
> 
> While all that may be true, we get very little opportunity here to heap abuse on posters, and I think you're being a killjoy to introduce reason into the insult-fest.


See this is funny that you say one of the most important features. I could care less when these features are activated. I very rarely used either and now with 2 Tuners I have not had a reason to use the MRV feature. Do I think they should activate it, yes...when they get approval. Do I think it is the consumers fault for assuming, yes. When you are making that large of a purchase, you should look at ALL the specs. New technology comes out everyday, but it does not mean every piece of equipment has that technology. That is why you have to read the specs to know what you are getting.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

aliweb1 said:


> My husband and I made the leap & purchased a Series 3 for each other for Christmas. We are migrating from Direct TV to Comcast Digital Cable just for the Series 3. It is all hooked up & activated. JUST FOUND OUT IT DOES NOT ALLOW MULT1 ROOM VIEWING!!! What is that about?
> 
> We bought this fancy & expensive Tivo to get the latest & best technology, the ability to record in HD, AND TO BE ABLE TO TRANSFER SHOWS FROM ONE UNIT TO THE OTHER (we put the old series 2 in the bedroom). NOW I FIND OUT SERIES 3 DOES NOT ALLOW TRANSFERS. I CANNOT BELIEVE IT! :down:
> 
> Had I known this, I would have purchased another series 2 until they got their act together...what a Tivo disappointment! *My trust & estimation of this company has plummeted.*


I'm sorry you feel that way.
Can you see about returning it and perhaps switching to another Series 2 (maybe the one w/ Dual Tuners S2.5)?


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## mr_pink (Dec 15, 2006)

IzzyB68 said:


> See this is funny that you say one of the most important features. I could care less when these features are activated.


 :up: :up:

I would think the most important features in a DVR would be things like recording tv shows, stopping/ff/rw live tv, season passes, easy to use ui, .... oh wait .. the S3 has all of those ...


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Wow, the kool aid drinkers are out!

I love my s3. But Tivo is not a well run company. They make announcements about things that either aren't ready (the s3 was announced when?) or plain just don't happen (netfilx anyone? mac tivo2go support anyone? aac support? ). 

A great company wouldn't put out a stripped down product. They claim MRV , external drive, etc. are coming, but is anyone holding their breath? I got an s3 b/c the interface is superior. Unfortunately, the interface has been around for a looong time. Their innovation since then is less than impressive. A company that rests on it's laurels THIS much is rare. 

A common consumer is right to expect that a good company would not remove features in newer models. We are obviously nerds here, and do the research. But I don't expect my dad to do this kind of research, and I would not blame him for getting angry that features he had are gone. It's not like this is an entirely new product. It's a series 3. As in after series 2 and 1. 

It is NOT unreasonable in the slightest for someone to expect the same feature set as a s2 + more.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

dig_duggler said:


> Wow, the kool aid drinkers are out!


  Saying good things about Tivo does not make a kool aid drinker.



> I love my s3. But Tivo is not a well run company.


In your opinion



> They make announcements about things that either aren't ready (the s3 was announced when?) or plain just don't happen (netfilx anyone?).


The only ship date announced for the S3 was "second half of 2006" Looks like they nailed it.



> We are obviously nerds here, and do the research. But I don't expect my dad to do this kind of research, and I would not blame him for getting angry that features he had are gone. It's not like this is an entirely new product. It's a series 3. As in after series 2 and 1.


Doing a basic amount of research is part of buying things. I wouldn't let my Dad make a mistake like that... Just like an unsubbed S1 can do things that an unsubbed S2 can't, there are different feature sets for the different hardware baselines.



> It is NOT unreasonable in the slightest for someone to expect the same feature set as a s2 + more.


Again, in your opinion, which seems to be in the minority around here.


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## mr_pink (Dec 15, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> It is NOT unreasonable in the slightest for someone to expect the same feature set as a s2 + more.


I MIGHT agree - if the S3 was just a newer version of the S2. However - how the S3 recieves, stores, and processes video is completely different than a S1 or S2. (its actually closer to how a DirecTivo works, for the most part). In addition, it is handling a totally new format of video (HD). Why anyone would think it should have the exact same set of features I just don't understand.

And it does have more features. It supports cablecards so you can record digital content straight from the source instead of decoding it, feeding it into your tivo, rencoding it, decoding it again and sending it to your tv - increasing PQ and saving disk space for digital SD content. It supports HD .. HELLO! ... these are the kind of meaningful features I would think most consumers would care about....

What percentage of series 2 owners do you think are putting tv shows on portable devices? Or sharing shows over a network --- Compared to the number who would notice things like .. I don't know .... increased picture quality? Not having to worry about fumbling around with good/better/best for digital cable channels? .. or the ability to record in HD .... ?

Is it a step backwards in the nerdy gizmo department? Maybe. But overall features? I suppose how one defines a feature is subjective - but I just can't agree that a S3 is somehow inferior to a S2 featurewise.


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## rdtex (Mar 10, 2002)

I purchased my series 3 in Oct and transferred my s2 lifetime to it. After reading the post that Tivo is allowing lifetime DirecTivo custs. to transfer to a series 3 I called Tivo and spoke with 3 different individuals and told them I was considering buying another series 3 and transfer my DirecTV lifetime to it and asked if MRV was ever going to be implemented on the series 3 and was told that it was along with other features like the series 2 has as well. One guy mentioned maybe within 6 months for MRV.

I hope I was not misinformed but am still glad I ordered it. UPS is delivering it tomorrow and I will do the lifetime transfer so I will have 2 series 3 with lifetime, yeah!

BTW, I suspended my DTV account after almost 12 years of continuous service when I got my 1st series 3 in Oct and am using OTA only and an as happy as can be. In Houston I get almost 18 digital channels, not counting the spanish channels and all of them have a very strong signal using a med size antenna in the attic. The tuners in the series 3 are MUCH better than the ones in the HR10-250 that it replaced.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> Holy smokes, we agree


Dude........

We agree on a lot. Such as the S3 is a kick ass product.

Where we differ is how people should complain/vent/discuss their frustation over it.

Despite what many of you may or may not think of me (and allow me to clearly state I could give two F's what you do or do not think about me) sans some of the most strident TiVo apologists, I think there is a tremendous common ground among all of us.

Craig


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> Dude........
> 
> We agree on a lot. Such as the S3 is a kick ass product.
> 
> ...


I was saying that partly in jest. That other thread about that other thing that I forgot about _(oh yeah, the guy wanting new instead of refurbed)_ was pretty heated, but you're absolutely right on that last part.

I don't think that there is anyone here that doesn't like some part of the whole Tivo picture, which is why it's so great that Tivo's got something that works for just about everyone (at least everyone that posts here ).

_That and the part where the OP is being foolish and unreasonable._


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

MRV is extremely important to me. I bought because I think that eventually the "underground" will figure it out just like they did with DirecTiVo. Or I will have to wait for some agency to approve something which I do not use (cable) so I can do MRV. 

The reason I bought anyway is that there is a limited time to do lifetime transfers. Now I am working on a plug and play method to move boxes, as well as an external bay for hard drives to archive recordings. There is always a way if there is a will.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> I was saying that partly in jest. That other thread about that other thing that I forgot about _(oh yeah, the guy wanting new instead of refurbed)_ was pretty heated, but you're absolutely right on that last part.
> 
> I don't think that there is anyone here that doesn't like some part of the whole Tivo picture, which is why it's so great that Tivo's got something that works for just about everyone (at least everyone that posts here ).
> 
> _That and the part where the OP is being foolish and unreasonable._


And maybe that is the difference. I find this stuff amusing. I don't find it heated. We are talking about an $800 machine (all in mine cost me $1300) to record TV.

Am I the only one who has not lost perspective as to how when people throw a S fit over the ability to watch shows off of that machine in a different room that while it may not what be what people want it is just so trivial as to be laughable?

There are people dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur and Somalia and this is what people throw tantrums over?

I find it laughable!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> And maybe that is the difference. I find this stuff amusing. I don't find it heated. We are talking about an $800 machine (all in mine cost me $1300) to record TV.
> 
> Am I the only one who has not lost perspective as to how when people throw a S fit over the ability to watch shows off of that machine in a different room that while it may not what be what people want it is just so trivial as to be laughable?
> 
> ...


People dying!!! what that to do with this Thread which is not about any world (bad or good) situations. You are saying "how can people be mad about anything in their life with people dying", my new car broke down and stranded me but I should not be upset when people are dying. I don't want Americans dying in foreign lands not directly defending the USA but does that mean nothing else matters in our lives if we or our family are not facing death. You may not agree with what people get upset with, but don't compare it to our brave solders (and others) dying. That a topic for another Board.
For our family MRV is very important, xfering to the computer is not, few people use all features of any product.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

aliweb1 said:


> My husband and I made the leap & purchased a Series 3 for each other for Christmas. We are migrating from Direct TV to Comcast Digital Cable just for the Series 3. It is all hooked up & activated. JUST FOUND OUT IT DOES NOT ALLOW MULT1 ROOM VIEWING!!! What is that about?
> 
> We bought this fancy & expensive Tivo to get the latest & best technology, the ability to record in HD, AND TO BE ABLE TO TRANSFER SHOWS FROM ONE UNIT TO THE OTHER (we put the old series 2 in the bedroom). NOW I FIND OUT SERIES 3 DOES NOT ALLOW TRANSFERS. I CANNOT BELIEVE IT! :down:
> 
> Had I known this, I would have purchased another series 2 until they got their act together...what a Tivo disappointment! My trust & estimation of this company has plummeted.


I hope you purchased from a retailer that has a money back guarantee. I always do unless I am 100% sure that the product will do exactly what I want it to do. I never purchase from a place that will not swap out a defective product for a new one either. I do hope you can return it. With that said...

I find it a little strange that you found this forum, registered, and posted the exact same post in two threads, but you didn't research your high dollar purchase before you bought it 

Not sarcastically, I ask: Why didn't you research the S3, here on the forum, before you paid for it?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

CTLesq said:


> And maybe that is the difference. I find this stuff amusing. I don't find it heated. We are talking about an $800 machine (all in mine cost me $1300) to record TV.
> 
> Am I the only one who has not lost perspective as to how when people throw a S fit over the ability to watch shows off of that machine in a different room that while it may not what be what people want it is just so trivial as to be laughable?
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with your logic, but this is the wrong place to air it. In fact it's _laughable_.

This is a TiVo forum. It isn't a _"there are people dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur and Somalia"_ forum. It's not a _people are dying of starvation and can't get the healthcare they need in one of the richest countries in the world_ forum. Human life is paramount, and I don't think many people who post here would disagree with that fact, but you are in a *TiVo* forum. People come here to complain about, discuss or praise TiVo.

Do you know, first hand, that the people you find _laughable_ aren't donating their time or money to help their neighbors here and abroad? They may even be posting about it in the appropriate forum...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> ...That other thread about that other thing that I forgot about (oh yeah, the guy wanting new instead of refurbed) was pretty heated...[/SIZE][/I]


That's a thread I'd be interested in if you have a link (or the title of the thread)!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

It started as this:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=329849

I thought that the Class Action in the title was a good start - we hadn't had one of those in a good month or so...

This is the direct link to Craig's post that got a burr under people's saddles.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4637739&&#post4637739

Then you have to read the followup thread here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331239

Here I think that Craig has a valid point. Sometimes some of us (myself included) may tend to get a little too emotionally attached to some of the debates that go on around here (the thread over in the Coffee House about the new ads on the "delete now" screen is another good example). I think that the suggestion to take a minute and remember how important this is in the grand scheme of things is a good one. I've commented before that the fact that out TiVo's are what we are able to spend all this time discussing reflects on just how lucky each of that posts here is.

Overall, I don't think that's such a bad message, right?


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> I don't disagree with your logic, but this is the wrong place to air it. In fact it's _laughable_.
> 
> This is a TiVo forum. It isn't a _"there are people dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur and Somalia"_ forum. It's not a _people are dying of starvation and can't get the healthcare they need in one of the richest countries in the world_ forum. Human life is paramount, and I don't think many people who post here would disagree with that fact, but you are in a *TiVo* forum. People come here to complain about, discuss or praise TiVo.
> 
> Do you know, first hand, that the people you find _laughable_ aren't donating their time or money to help their neighbors here and abroad? They may even be posting about it in the appropriate forum...


Yes it is a TiVo forum. And my point is that ultimately we are talking about a very expensive device to record TV. The lunacy to which some people go - look at the first comment in this thread about their anger, annoyance or lauding of praise over TiVo is what is laughable.

Its context to the world we live in. Read some of the tantrums people have thrown over TiVo both for and againt it. Their reactions are what is a joke - not that you mistakenly view my comments as posted in the wrong forum.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

mr_pink said:


> I MIGHT agree - if the S3 was just a newer version of the S2. However - how the S3 recieves, stores, and processes video is completely different than a S1 or S2. (its actually closer to how a DirecTivo works, for the most part). In addition, it is handling a totally new format of video (HD). Why anyone would think it should have the exact same set of features I just don't understand.


B/c that's the product. The end user doesn't care that it handles it differently. It doesn't matter to them and it shouldn't matter to them. The end user just wants it to work. And part of the user experience is to build on pre-existing functionality, not to strip it down and add some other functionality. That's what a superior product should be. Value added. Not some value added and some value lost.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

It's pretty obvious the OP may never come back again, but no sympathy here. I researched the S3 and I found that these features "may" become available in the future. I knew what I was buying. I think I spent my money well.

And Ctakim, who the heck are you that you feel you have the right to "apologize" for any of us in this forum. Speak for yourself, don't speak for me.


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## rczig (Mar 25, 2006)

prior to purchasing, but still am disappointed. At the VERY LEAST, couldn't Tivo allow transfers FROM S2 Tivos? I mean, if they didn't need cablecard approval for the S2 programs to be transferred, why can't the S3 be allowed to WATCH these programs?!?!?
I understand that HD can't ever be transferred to S2, and I would even allow that S3 premium content may not ever be allowed to be transferred (because of it's digital broadcast quality), but WHY can't we watch the old, LOSSY, DEGRADED by A-D D-A conversion S2 programs on the S3 boxes?

For that matter, WHY include an ethernet port and external SATA port AT ALL if these features may never be allowed? What's the good in having a USB 2, 802.11g Wifi, fast ethernet connection? For the time being, I'm using my old and SLOW 802.11b Wifi adapter on my S3 box, which is MORE THAN ENOUGH for music and photos (the only networking currently allowed on the box). . . I don't NEED a faster connection without MRV!

Please, Tivo, at least allow S2 programs to be transferred TO the S3 boxes- you shouldn't need cablelab approval for that!


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

mr_pink said:


> ...
> 
> Why would you even expect an HD DVR to be compatible with an SD one?
> 
> ...


Because it's also an SD box. More specifically it added digital OTA and digital cable capabilities to the SD model (although you lose the SD input capability). There are even a few folks who aew currently using it as an SD only box.

That said, they should have had a sticker to put on boxes disclosing the lack of full compatibility with Tivo S2's.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

rczig said:


> For that matter, WHY include an ethernet port and external SATA port AT ALL if these features may never be allowed? What's the good in having a USB 2, 802.11g Wifi, fast ethernet connection?


Maybe because they might be allowed? I bet you'd be pretty hacked if you bought an S3 on day 1 and a couple months later they enabled those features, but your box lacked the hardware to support those features.


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## rczig (Mar 25, 2006)

TexasAg said:


> Maybe because they might be allowed? I bet you'd be pretty hacked if you bought an S3 on day 1 and a couple months later they enabled those features, but your box lacked the hardware to support those features.


No doubt, but there STILL doesn't seem to be a valid reason to prevent transfers TO the S3 box! What about content from my computer that I've recorded myself? I've got family videos on the computer hard drive that I routinely transferred TO my S2 box, but can't now with the S3 box. . .

Again, I KNEW this prior to purchasing, but still see NO REASON to prevent this functionality. . .


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Early indications were that Tivo just locked the whole thing down because they seemed to be expecting quick approval and didn't want to waste the time coding up a solution for a problem that was going to go away when CL made their decision (or be changed, if CL had changes that they required, or offered some sort of a partial approval.

Haven't heard much about that recently, but it seemed logical back in September.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

rczig said:


> No doubt, but there STILL doesn't seem to be a valid reason to prevent transfers TO the S3 box! What about content from my computer that I've recorded myself? I've got family videos on the computer hard drive that I routinely transferred TO my S2 box, but can't now with the S3 box. . .
> 
> Again, I KNEW this prior to purchasing, but still see NO REASON to prevent this functionality. . .


Likely the sending and receiving video coding are intertwined. Programmers don't like writing temporary code and employers don't like paying for it. They'd rather pay to debug 8.1!


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## rczig (Mar 25, 2006)

vstone said:


> Likely the sending and receiving video coding are intertwined. Programmers don't like writing temporary code and employers don't like paying for it. They'd rather pay to debug 8.1!


Hopefully it IS only temporary! And hopefully the eSATA port will soon be enabled, as well. Again, that's probably tied to MRV and tivo-to-go, as it would probably make it way easier to hook a eSATA drive up to a computer and download the programs from there. . .


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## jtown (Sep 26, 2002)

You think the Tivo's non-functional eSATA port is silly? You should see the HD DVR Cox gives their customers. Loaded with useless ports. Three USB2 ports (1 front, 2 back), 2 firewire ports, and 1 eSATA. Of those, only the firewire ports are active, though they won't tell you that or explain how to use them. And they can't be used for adding storage. Just output to a firewire display or DVHS recorder (both extremely rare) or a computer masquerading as a DVHS recorder. Oh, and there are unusable audio/video inputs as well. And the "smartcard" slot.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

When we first got the SA 8000 there was nothing active on that. It had a DVI that was inactive and if it had a SATA it wasn't active. Then they came out with the 8300 which had an active HDMI, although the cable companies would not admit it was active. After a few upgrades of their firmware the eSATA became active.

The point is on these other machines they came with things that wern't active and in some cases never became active. One of the "features" that I actually thought was better then TiVo was I could record to DVD while watching something else because it used the PIP function. Now that would have been great but it turned out that if you did watch something else while you were recording to DVD (or VCR) all of a sudden your sound track would change and whatever you had on "live" would come on. Another reason these things sucked.

It took about a year and a half for the SA 8300 to get an active ESATA in my area. People, be patient. Good things will come.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

mr_pink said:


> Or you could have spent 5 minutes researching your new fancy expensive purchase and knew this beforehand ..
> 
> from the FAQ on this site:
> 
> ...


The DEMO VIDEO LOOP that is installed and running on the **S3** unit's in the floor displays in Fry's and elsewhere shows MRV and other non-S3 features.

So it is not correct to say people who are surprised by the S3's lack of MRV are always the ones at fault. Anyone with a long standing relationship with Tivo's S2 system would be unlikely to exhaustively research a $500 S3 purchase if TIVO's OWN DEMO VIDEO running on an S3 shows the features (like MRV) which the S3 lacks.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> And Ctakim, who the heck are you that you feel you have the right to "apologize" for any of us in this forum. Speak for yourself, don't speak for me.


He was speaking at you. His comment was a broadside in your general direction.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Scopeman said:


> The DEMO VIDEO LOOP that is installed and running on the **S3** unit's in the floor displays in Fry's and elsewhere shows MRV and other non-S3 features.
> 
> So it is not correct to say people who are surprised by the S3's lack of MRV are always the ones at fault. Anyone with a long standing relationship with Tivo's S2 system would be unlikely to exhaustively research a $500 S3 purchase if TIVO's OWN DEMO VIDEO running on an S3 shows the features (like MRV) which the S3 lacks.


Less than a minute of reading hardly qualifies as "exhaustive research".

Try again.



CTLesq said:


> He was speaking at you. His comment was a broadside in your general direction.


Probably aimed at me too. Like hookbill, I don't apologize either. Don't be surprised when you do something stupid, post about it on the internet and then get made fun of.  Also like hookbill, I think that Ctakim should pound sand and stop apologizing for us.


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## mr_pink (Dec 15, 2006)

GoHokies! said:


> Don't be surprised when you do something stupid, post about it on the internet and then get made fun of.


I'm all for cutting people slack and biting my lip when I think they did somethign silly .. but I think the fact that the OP chose this particular forum to lodge her complaint - the very forum that could have provided the appropriate pre-purchase info in the first place - is what makes it so hard to stifle a response.

Hopefully she can just return it and move on.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

CTLesq said:


> He was speaking at you. His comment was a broadside in your general direction.


Huh? When he made his comment I hadn't posted yet. He's done this in the past where he "apologizes" for the behavoir of the folks in this forum so in fact I broadsided him. This dude has been around for about 1 month, I've been around for 5 years. He doesn't apologize for me, Go Hokies!, or anybody. Hell, I wouldn't apologize for someone elses behavior. I have no right.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

hookbill said:


> Huh? When he made his comment I hadn't posted yet. He's done this in the past where he "apologizes" for the behavoir of the folks in this forum so in fact I broadsided him. This dude has been around for about 1 month, I've been around for 5 years. He doesn't apologize for me, Go Hokies!, or anybody. Hell, I wouldn't apologize for someone elses behavior. I have no right.


I believe his comment was a more general, all encompassing TiVo apologist one. At least that is how I read it.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> I believe his comment was a more general, all encompassing


Yes. Essentially, he was apologizing on behalf of humanity.


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

Redux said:


> Yes. Essentially, he was apologizing on behalf of humanity.


Ha, I laughed at this. I think his comment was defined as to only include the TiVo apologist.

Although some of those TiVo apologists believe this board, this forum does represent the world.

So maybe you were more right than I thought.

But I did find your comment very amusing.


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## will792 (Jan 4, 2005)

Strange that nobody ever complained that VCRs do not have a note on a box that copyrighted video signal cannot be recorded due to the inclusion of a Macrovision chip. At one point VCRs did not have this restriction either.


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## danitaz (Oct 15, 2005)

I have to admit that even though I knew about the MRV issue, I didn't really pay any attention to the TTG issue. That said, I've never even USED TTG <g>. The biggest issue I will have with no TTG is that I've been saving programs to DVD on my Humax with DVD recorder, and this will no longer be possible (well at least not unless someone has found a hack <g>). I would have LIKED MRV since now I will have two TiVos, but it's not the end of the world for me. However, if those had been important features I would have checked before I bought.

That said, having some easy to find information on the product page for the T3 would have been nice!

Actually, I'm working on putting together a MythTV system for our house, but I've been waiting so long for a HD TiVo that I couldn't resist <g>. And it gives me time to get Myth working the way I want while I get to watch HD programs. Since we hardly EVER watch anything live, it didn't make any sense to us to get HD programming in our house until we had a way to record it.

Danita


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I really don't understand the point of the original post, or this whole thread.

She bought something because she thought it could do something that it can't.

Return it!

End of story.

-smak-


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

mr_pink said:


> If standard consumer practice is paying $800 for something without knowing what it does - then I need to quit my Fing job and start marketing an $800 clock radio or something, pronto. People will assume because I'm charging them $800 it will grow legs, hop off the nightstand, crawl into my bed and shake me awake in the morning.
> 
> Ill even make sure I don't write "THIS PRODUCT DOES NOT GROW LEGS AND CRAWL INTO YOUR BED" on the outside of the box, just to be really extra scummy to my consumers.
> 
> ...


Well, number one. Every ad currently in circulation about TiVo emphasizes things the series 3 doesn't do and they don't differentiate between S2's and S3's in those ads. Sure, some series 2 owners have gotten some targeted ads for the series 3, but again these gloss over the missing features. If features are being advertised most people would make the assumption that these apply to the product being highlighted, which in this case isn't specified.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

I purchased my motorcycle w/o doing any research other than remember a 10 year old article in Cycle World about it. Then did the research. It was pretty much impulse that worked out great.

When I purchased my S2, TTG and MRV weren't available and I didn't know anything about it until after it showed up in the messages and did the firmware update.

Almost got me to buy a second S2, not to record, just to transfer content to it, so I could take it with me and watch it @work.

I did use TTG instead and transferred shows to my laptop.

It would be nice if TTG/MRV could be activated to allow SD content to be transferred to an S2, but I can live w/o it.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Every ad currently in circulation about TiVo emphasizes things the series 3 doesn't do and they don't differentiate between S2's and S3's in those ads


Advertising should be ignored; or not, at your peril.


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## rickeame (Jan 3, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> It still amazes me that people will go and drop huge amounts of money on anything without doing the least bit research on what they are buying.
> 
> aliweb1, just to save you a further rant, it doesn't do DirecTV either.


Well, to be fair, it's a completely reasonable assumption to think that the most expensive tivo would have the feature set of the cheaper ones. Yes, people should research, but it's really retarded they don't have this.

MCE has this, with HD, with cablecard. So why doesn't Tivo?

I am with this guy -- your flagship unit should be the superset of features, not a subset.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

rickeame said:


> MCE has this, with HD, with cablecard. So why doesn't Tivo?


If you're referring to Windows XP MCE, then no, it doesn't..
In the case of Vista MCE, it's OEM only for CableCARD, and the limitations on transfer on those units are still not written in stone. Consumer level OCUR devices will most likely never happen.
(unless someone here has one and is not under an NDA)

Diane


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

rickeame said:


> Well, to be fair, it's a completely reasonable assumption to think that the most expensive tivo would have the feature set of the cheaper ones. Yes, people should research, but it's really retarded they don't have this.
> 
> MCE has this, with HD, with cablecard. So why doesn't Tivo?
> 
> I am with this guy -- your flagship unit should be the superset of features, not a subset.


You are forgetting one major thing here, TiVo didn't just up and say "OK, let's get rid of some features." Now that the S3 is a CableLabs device, CableLabs has a say-so in what does and does not get into the S3. If the S3 was just an over the air product, then you can bet all those missing things would be in there. The problem is, the S3 can also record hi-def of all the encrypted cable channels which the cable companies and more importantly the content creators don't want floating around the net 3 minutes after the first airing.

Most people's next point is: "Let us MRV and TTG shows which don't need protection", and the answer to that is
1: probably not that easy to separate from the main code
2: separating it out doesn't guarantee that CableLabs will believe it is not easily hacked back in

Of course this is all my opinion here.


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## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

About the 'inactive' ports on the motorola STB's... (probably SA too.) 

It's my understanding that while motorola manufactures the boxes with all that Hardware, (USB and FW controllers, ethernet jack - heck I understand there's even a DOCSIS Cable modem in there,) They charge the cable companies hefty license fee's to activate each feature. in th box.

So, since we all know that the costs always end up being passed to the consumer, would you really want to pay more to have those ports turned on?

As for the S3, I'd much rather have the unit with the ports present now, and only the hope that I'll get to use them, than to buy one without the ports now, only to have a Series 3.5 come out later with them after they get permission from the 'authorities'. 

Also I'd rather have the S3 with inactive ports now, than have no HD tivo at all until permission is granted.

Which way would most of you rather have it?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Leo_N said:


> Most people's next point is: "Let us MRV and TTG shows which don't need protection", and the answer to that is
> 1: probably not that easy to separate from the main code
> 2: separating it out doesn't guarantee that CableLabs will believe it is not easily hacked back in
> 
> Of course this is all my opinion here.


1. Well, Tivo should have coded HD transfer as a separate feature. It's good coding practice, especially when there's a chance that the customer might not like that feature. I mean, how difficult could it be to code the HD part separately? It already doesn't exist today! Unless Cablelabs is also uneasy about the SD content transfer as well. In which case Tivo is screwed.

2. It's impossible to make this "no-hack" guarantee, especially with an OS using GPL (that's one of GPL's major weaknesses). Tivo is extremely hackable, and has non-Tivo software available to extract shows. Even when Tivo released its own software, the DRM was very easy to defeat.

It looks bad when your most expensive product doesn't have the same features as another product you are literally giving away. It doesn't matter WHY it's happening -- it just looks bad. Period.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> 1. Well, Tivo should have coded HD transfer as a separate feature. It's good coding practice, especially when there's a chance that the customer might not like that feature.


Why? The MRV and TTG functions should operate exactly the same whether you are dealing with HD or SD shows. You are simply sending a show to another Tivo/computer. It may take longer to transfer, but the transfer function should be similar/exactly the same.



BobCamp1 said:


> 2. It's impossible to make this "no-hack" guarantee, especially with an OS using GPL (that's one of GPL's major weaknesses). Tivo is extremely hackable, and has non-Tivo software available to extract shows. Even when Tivo released its own software, the DRM was very easy to defeat.


Unless I'm mistaken, the Tivo DRM was not "cracked" until recently. You could hack a Tivo to turn the encryption off, but you couldn't crack the encryption. I believe you still can't unless you have the MAK for the Tivo that encrypted a show.

Also, the later S2 Tivos actually required a hardware change (PROM change) to hack them. Tivos have become more difficult to hack over time.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Leo_N said:


> You are forgetting one major thing here, TiVo didn't just up and say "OK, let's get rid of some features." Now that the S3 is a CableLabs device, CableLabs has a say-so in what does and does not get into the S3. If the S3 was just an over the air product, then you can bet all those missing things would be in there. The problem is, the S3 can also record hi-def of all the encrypted cable channels which the cable companies and more importantly the content creators don't want floating around the net 3 minutes after the first airing.


Tivo made the business decision to go with CableLabs certification and use cable cards. It's a trade off (lose some features vs using cable cards and requiring the cable companies to get on board, etc.) but it was their decision. They are accountable, not CableLabs.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> Tivo made the business decision to go with CableLabs certification and use cable cards. It's a trade off (lose some features vs using cable cards and requiring the cable companies to get on board, etc.) but it was their decision. They are accountable, not CableLabs.


So Tivo is responsible even if CableLabs is slow in approving the feature? I guess you gotta blame Tivo for something.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

TexasAg said:


> So Tivo is responsible even if CableLabs is slow in approving the feature? I guess you gotta blame Tivo for something.


Yes you do. They are the company that is selling me my device and chose to go down this road. I do blame them. I'm am so sure that they had absolutely no idea this would take so long to get someone to certify allowing perfect digital copies of programs to circulate to computers and other Tivo's. It's shocking!

When aac support wasn't as easy as they though it would be, it got buried. When the movie studios were (shockingly!) resistant to the Netflix partnership, it got buried. I imagine these features will never appear on an S3. I would love to be proved wrong, but look at their track record. I'm still waiting on my fall update.

Bottom line - they chose this road, they are responsible. If you choose a business plan, you are responsible for the outcome. It's a trade off. I like the trade off. But it's not unreasonable to expect a product to maintain feature sets from version to version.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> I do blame them. I'm am so sure that they had absolutely no idea this would take so long to get someone to certify allowing perfect digital copies of programs to circulate to computers and other Tivo's. It's shocking!


Which is why Tivo never said you could use MRV or TTG.



dig_duggler said:


> Bottom line - they chose this road, they are responsible. If you choose a business plan, you are responsible for the outcome. It's a trade off. I like the trade off. But it's not unreasonable to expect a product to maintain feature sets from version to version.!


You say it's up to Tivo to choose the business plan, but you say you expect the S3 to have all of the features of the prior models. So basically, it's OK that Tivo chose the path it took, you just want the features and blame Tivo. OK. Just so I know where you're coming from (the "blame Tivo for everything" place).


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

smak,

I am guessing that the OP really wants TiVo functionality, and may not take back the only HD DVR worth using. 

Probably just venting here. 

Most of the rest is just another opportunity for TiVo enthusiasts (or not) to spend some time espousing various viewpoints. Not right, not wrong, just opinions.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

> Which is why Tivo never said you could use MRV or TTG.


So what exactly is CableLabs slow in approving again?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> So what exactly is CableLabs slow in approving again?


Stop playing (I assume) ignorant. Tivo never said you could use MRV and TTG on the S3. They have explicitly said they need CableLabs approval before they can enable those features, and they may never get to enable them if CableLabs rejects the features and it's upheld.



dig_duggler said:


> Yes and yes. You got it!


So you basically would have preferred a box that was unable to handle any encrypted digital cable? Because that's what it would take to give you MRV and TTG without CableLabs' involvement.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> Yes you do. They are the company that is selling me my device and chose to go down this road. I do blame them. I'm am so sure that they had absolutely no idea this would take so long to get someone to certify allowing perfect digital copies of programs to circulate to computers and other Tivo's. It's shocking!
> 
> When aac support wasn't as easy as they though it would be, it got buried. When the movie studios were (shockingly!) resistant to the Netflix partnership, it got buried. I imagine these features will never appear on an S3. I would love to be proved wrong, but look at their track record. I'm still waiting on my fall update.
> 
> Bottom line - they chose this road, they are responsible. If you choose a business plan, you are responsible for the outcome. It's a trade off. I like the trade off. But it's not unreasonable to expect a product to maintain feature sets from version to version.


Ok, so what should Tivo's Business Plan been? Easy to be critical, much harder to actually propose alternate solutions.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Man I just have to let this go...

It is possible to enjoy a product and find fault with it at the same time. It is good business practice to maintain features from version to version, especially if those features are popular. And it is possible to hold a company accountable if they abandon that for whatever reason. If a company voluntarily chooses another business plan and there are drawbacks to that plan, said company gets (or at the very least shares) blame for those drawbacks. 

And if you would like to play the what tivo promised versus what they delivered game over the years, I would be glad to discuss that. I love my tivo. Tivo has drawbacks. The two can co-exist.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> Man I just have to let this go...
> 
> It is possible to enjoy a product and find fault with it at the same time. It is good business practice to maintain features from version to version, especially if those features are popular. And it is possible to hold a company accountable if they abandon that for whatever reason. If a company voluntarily chooses another business plan and there are drawbacks to that plan, said company gets (or at the very least shares) blame for those drawbacks.
> 
> And if you would like to play the what tivo promised versus what they delivered game over the years, I would be glad to discuss that. I love my tivo. Tivo has drawbacks. The two can co-exist.


In other words, you can't answer RBlount's challenge to explain what Tivo's business plan should have been.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

@TexasAg

1). I apologize for being snippy 
2). I don't work for Tivo. The idea of accountability seems to be lost here. Sometimes there are no perfect avenues. If you can't parse what you quoted, I can't really comment any further.

Edit: On reflection, not calling it Series 3 would have been a good start.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

dig_duggler said:


> Yes you do. They are the company that is selling me my device and chose to go down this road. I do blame them. I'm am so sure that they had absolutely no idea this would take so long to get someone to certify allowing perfect digital copies of programs to circulate to computers and other Tivo's. It's shocking!
> 
> When aac support wasn't as easy as they though it would be, it got buried. When the movie studios were (shockingly!) resistant to the Netflix partnership, it got buried. I imagine these features will never appear on an S3. I would love to be proved wrong, but look at their track record. I'm still waiting on my fall update.
> 
> Bottom line - they chose this road, they are responsible. If you choose a business plan, you are responsible for the outcome. It's a trade off. I like the trade off. But it's not unreasonable to expect a product to maintain feature sets from version to version.


I still don't think you understand. If TiVo wants to offer an HD-TiVo that can, say, record HBO-HD off an arbitrary cable system, then they have to have CableLabs approval. It's not a choice of business plan per se, it's a choice of whether they can offer the product at all. There is no other path that will give an S3 like system that doesn't lead through CableLabs.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> I still don't think you understand. If TiVo wants to offer an HD-TiVo that can, say, record HBO-HD off an arbitrary cable system, then they have to have CableLabs approval. It's not a choice of business plan per se, it's a choice of whether they can offer the product at all. There is no other path that will give an S3 like system that doesn't lead through CableLabs.


Exactly right. The alternatives are - CableLabs or absolutely no encrypted digital cable.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dig_duggler said:


> @TexasAg
> 
> 1). I apologize for being snippy
> 2). I don't work for Tivo. The idea of accountability seems to be lost here. Sometimes there are no perfect avenues. If you can't parse what you quoted, I can't really comment any further.
> ...


The problem is that TiVo hasn't spent any marketing time distinguishing one product from another. To the adverage consumer a TiVo is a TiVo, whether it be a Series 1, 2 or 3. Maybe the Series 3 should have been marketed as and HDTiVo instead of a Series 3. I really don't know how they could have produced a product without the expectation that everything in the earlier versions would be included, especially when they were demoed with those features active.

I think it would have been better for them to disclose the missing features in a press release before the actual product hit the shelves to at least be able to spin the missing features in a positive manner without it surprising everyone at release. TiVo could have at the same time applied pressure to the appropriate people via the press release with headlines like, "Cablelabs stifles innovation!" and whatnot.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> The problem is that TiVo hasn't spent any marketing time distinguishing one product from another.


Not to be too glib, but aren't you forgetting that Tivo's marketing has never been particularly effective in any regard*? I mean aside from linking itself to Ronnie Lott's Jock Itch.... 

*At least in my opinion and the opinions of many other posters to this forum.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> Not to be too glib, but aren't you forgetting that Tivo's marketing has never been particularly effective in any regard*? I mean aside from linking itself to Ronnie Lott's Jock Itch....
> 
> *At least in my opinion and the opinions of many other posters to this forum.


I believe that was my point.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> I believe that was my point.


I thought you were suggesting that Tivo could use marketing to inform the masses of features and differences between Tivo products, when them seem unable to use marketing for anything except a way to get rid of cash.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if Tivo could have saved all that money from commercials and given out $20 rewards for referrals. Probably would have reached more people for less money....

And, yes, Tivo, I'll accept your offer to be on your board of directors if you ask me.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> I thought you were suggesting that Tivo could use marketing to inform the masses of features and differences between Tivo products, when them seem unable to use marketing for anything except a way to get rid of cash.
> 
> Now that I think of it, I wonder if Tivo could have saved all that money from commercials and given out $20 rewards for referrals. Probably would have reached more people for less money....
> 
> And, yes, Tivo, I'll accept your offer to be on your board of directors if you ask me.


One was an observation about them being ineffective to date, while the other was what I would have liked them to have done prior to the release of the Series 3. I've been seeing more TiVo ads on television now than ever before. Seems like they are timing it so that the TiVo guy is on screen at a multiple of 30 seconds in the commercial break. (Maybe just coincidence). In these ads there isn't an mention of the features they are tauting as only available on a series 2. If you look closely the unit in the commercial is a 540 series 2 though.


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## steve101 (Jan 4, 2005)

I did not buy a Series3 because MRV was disabled, I will
revisit this when it is enabled. I would never expect it
to transfer a show recorded in HD to a Series2 but it
seems to me that it should at least have at least allowed
transfers IN from Series2's. If that were the case I would
have one already.


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## rickeame (Jan 3, 2002)

All I know is this: MCE boxes in about 3 weeks will have the ability to record via cable card and stream to XBOX 360's. Maybe they got approved because it streams rather than transfer. If so, then Tivo engineers should perhaps ponder streaming.

Of course, none of this explains why things like TivoGoBack aren't implemented properly.

If I had to do it over again, I'd wait on the S3. I bought it because the comcast box blew, but as soon as I can have a media center PC with OCUR and streaming to my xboxes, I'm done. I woudl have bought 2 more S3's if they could stream to each other.


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## Scopeman (Oct 22, 2002)

GoHokies! said:


> Less than a minute of reading hardly qualifies as "exhaustive research".
> 
> Try again.


If the demo video running on the S3 shows MRV then there is no need for further research - anyone watching that demo video is mislead. There is no "try again" involved. The demo is outright false, can easily mislead a potential S3 buyer. Obviously, therefore, NOT ALL S3 buyers who are surprised buy the lack of MRV are morons who failed to research the issue.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Scopeman said:


> If the demo video running on the S3 shows MRV then there is no need for further research - anyone watching that demo video is mislead. There is no "try again" involved. The demo is outright false, can easily mislead a potential S3 buyer. Obviously, therefore, NOT ALL S3 buyers who are surprised buy the lack of MRV are morons who failed to research the issue.


+1


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Scopeman said:


> If the demo video running on the S3 shows MRV then there is no need for further research - anyone watching that demo video is mislead. There is no "try again" involved. The demo is outright false, can easily mislead a potential S3 buyer. Obviously, therefore, NOT ALL S3 buyers who are surprised buy the lack of MRV are morons who failed to research the issue.


I wouldn't know, never saw the video you're talking about. The lack of TTG/MRV is probably the most documented thing about the S3. I still find it impossible to believe that any competent person can spend more than 5 minutes reading about the S3 from anywhere and not read about MRV and TTG at least a half dozen times.

So yeah, unless you make all of your purchasing decisions based on a demo video made by the company trying to sell you the product, try again.

And if you do, then I gotta go invest some money in those late night infomercial companies, because people are dumber than I thought.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

GoHokies! said:


> IAnd if you do, then I gotta go invest some money in those late night infomercial companies, because people are dumber than I thought.


Hey, they really are pretty dumb and many of them show up in here. I've seen a guy purchase not one, but two S3's on ebay to use with.....Direct TV.

Actually he turned out to be pretty smart because he got out of his contract with D*, but still hey...a little research?

Then we have all these other people spending 800 bucks on the S3 and boo hooing to us about TTG, MRV, blah blah blah. Assuming this and that.

I knew exactly what I was getting when I got the S3 and I knew what I wasn't getting. And I did it in less then one day. That's why God (or was it Al Gore) created the internet.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

hookbill said:


> Hey, they really are pretty dumb and many of them show up in here. I've seen a guy purchase not one, but two S3's on ebay to use with.....Direct TV.


You mean that the S3 won't work with my DirecTV?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> I wouldn't know, never saw the video you're talking about. The lack of TTG/MRV is probably the most documented thing about the S3. I still find it impossible to believe that any competent person can spend more than 5 minutes reading about the S3 from anywhere and not read about MRV and TTG at least a half dozen times.
> 
> So yeah, unless you make all of your purchasing decisions based on a demo video made by the company trying to sell you the product, try again.
> 
> And if you do, then I gotta go invest some money in those late night infomercial companies, because people are dumber than I thought.


You clearly think anyone who believes TiVo's marketing is a blithering idiot, but what's your opinion on whether or not the video showing MRV is misleading?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

I think that anyone who blindly believes *ANY* company's marketing is a blithering idiot.

Like I said, I never saw the video, so I can't comment on it.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> I think that anyone who blindly believes *ANY* company's marketing is a blithering idiot.
> 
> Like I said, I never saw the video, so I can't comment on it.


Sure you can. I've read many of your posts.  

I'm tempted to believe you just don't want to cast aspersions on TiVo for either being sloppy or for putting the cart ahead of the horse! 

Here's what I think happened: I'm sure TiVo's marketing department and programming departments at one time were on the same page, but MRV was held-up and marketing didn't get the message or had no time to re-cut the the video. I wouldn't rake TiVo over the coals for it, and I certainly wouldn't sue them for it. Chit like that happens!


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Sure you can. I've read many of your posts.
> 
> I'm tempted to believe you just don't want to cast aspersions on TiVo for either being sloppy or for putting the cart ahead of the horse!
> 
> Here's what I think happened: I'm sure TiVo's marketing department and programming departments at one time were on the same page, but MRV was held-up and marketing didn't get the message or had no time to re-cut the the video. I wouldn't rake TiVo over the coals for it, and I certainly wouldn't sue them for it. Chit like that happens!


Well played! 

I suspect that you are probably right... Is the video still being used? (was it in a showcase on the S2s, TV advertising or web?) If it's still being used, that's pretty boneheaded. If it was just a showcase on the S2s that has fallen by the wayside, then a message to everyone that got it saying that the video showed features that aren't currently implemented (soon after Tivo realized that they screwed up) certainly would have been appropriate.


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## montivette (Sep 7, 2006)

Why do some people assume that these features work? Because often TiVo, the packaging, and the retailers who market and promote them do not mention it.

Below is from a e-mail I received from TiVo entitled TiVo News #97:
When I read this I totally can understand how others would read this and think if they had an Apple and bought a Series 3 they could use TiVo to Go. In marketing their products they often fail to clarify that some TiVo models have some features while others do not. The below makes it sound like they all have TiVo to go. And not every consumer researches products on forums and spends hours reading posts prior to purchase. Some just go out and buy things after getting an e-mail such as this, or after seeing a TiVo add which touts Tivo To Go and Multi Room viewing.

_
Oh, Mac friends...
Yes, the day has finally arrived when we can share this much anticipated news with our most loyal, passionate, and oh-so-patient Mac friends: We've partnered with Roxio to enable TiVoToGo in Toast 8 Titanium, available TODAY!

Yes, you can now transfer your favorite TiVo recordings to your Mac, watch them in a player, burn them to DVD, and convert them for playback on iPod or PSP. Oh, yes. Learn more or buy now here.

And yes, Toast is the standard for disc burning software on the Mac. The new version 8 is truly awesome.

P.S. For even more fun at Macworld this week, visit booth #314 and ask our friends at Roxio to give you a demo of Mac TiVoToGo!_

This should have stated:

_
Oh, Mac friends...
Yes, the day has finally arrived when we can share this much anticipated news with our most loyal, passionate, and oh-so-patient Mac friends: We've partnered with Roxio to enable TiVoToGo in Toast 8 Titanium, available TODAY!

Yes, you can now transfer your favorite TiVo recordings to your Mac, watch them in a player, burn them to DVD, and convert them for playback on iPod or PSP. Oh, yes. Learn more or buy now here. ***Excludes Series 3*

And yes, Toast is the standard for disc burning software on the Mac. The new version 8 is truly awesome.

P.S. For even more fun at Macworld this week, visit booth #314 and ask our friends at Roxio to give you a demo of Mac TiVoToGo!_

Or should have specifically stated Series 1 and Series 2 models.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Well played!
> 
> I suspect that you are probably right... Is the video still being used? (was it in a showcase on the S2s, TV advertising or web?) If it's still being used, that's pretty boneheaded. If it was just a showcase on the S2s that has fallen by the wayside, then a message to everyone that got it saying that the video showed features that aren't currently implemented (soon after Tivo realized that they screwed up) certainly would have been appropriate.


I've recently seen television advertisements (The first in years) talking up TTG and while it's clearly a 540 series 2 in background there is no mention anywhere in the ad that it's only available on Series 2 devices. The ad talks about TiVo as if there was only one available, it doesn't go into recording times, HD v SD, or dual tuners. This blanket ad is misleading or it needs a disclaimer. Maybe they can publish one at the end of the ad that's too small to read on a 25" SD television to make it better.


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

dig_duggler said:


> Wow, the kool aid drinkers are out!
> 
> I love my s3. But Tivo is not a well run company. They make announcements about things that either aren't ready (the s3 was announced when?) or plain just don't happen (netfilx anyone? mac tivo2go support anyone? aac support? ).
> 
> ...


Amen and amen! The defensiveness and sheer nastiness of some of the TiVo fanboys who have posted to this thread has made my head spin. Welcome to the Forum, alweb1, or not. I hope she does not think those folks are representative of all posters here, or even most of them.

I have an S3 and love it, even without some of the S2s features. Nevertheless, the dirty little secret is that TiVos advertising IS misleading on that score. The company HAS gone out of its way to hide the S3s lack of those features. Still, I LOVE mine and to take it away from me you would have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

montivette said:


> Why do some people assume that these features work? Because often TiVo, the packaging, and the retailers who market and promote them do not mention it.
> 
> Below is from a e-mail I received from TiVo entitled TiVo News #97:
> When I read this I totally can understand how others would read this and think if they had an Apple and bought a Series 3 they could use TiVo to Go. In marketing their products they often fail to clarify that some TiVo models have some features while others do not. The below makes it sound like they all have TiVo to go. And not every consumer researches products on forums and spends hours reading posts prior to purchase. Some just go out and buy things after getting an e-mail such as this, or after seeing a TiVo add which touts Tivo To Go and Multi Room viewing.
> ...


Ummmm...could it be that the reason it's not in there is because the plan is for the S3 to be able to do that too?


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## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

gwsat said:


> Still, I LOVE mine and to take it away from me you would have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.


And this is from the non TiVo fanboy?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

hookbill said:


> Ummmm...could it be that the reason it's not in there is because the plan is for the S3 to be able to do that too?


Plans are just good intentions and are not set in stone. I can understand TiVo being optimistic about these features, but to not include some disclaimer in the ad's is misleading. However given the latest news it looks like my estimate may have been off a little. see sig below.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

hookbill said:


> Ummmm...could it be that the reason it's not in there is because the plan is for the S3 to be able to do that too?


Sure, if you modify it even _further_ you can roll with that.

_Yes, you can now transfer your favorite *analog* TiVo recordings to your Mac, watch them in a player, burn them to DVD, and convert them for playback on iPod or PSP. Oh, yes. Learn more or buy now here. **Excludes Series 3
_

But of course I would still take umbrage with the use of "now". You can plan for it but that doesn't make it "now".


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## gwsat (Sep 14, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Plans are just good intentions and are not set in stone. I can understand TiVo being optimistic about these features, but to not include some disclaimer in the ad's is misleading. However given the latest news it looks like my estimate may have been off a little. see sig below.


Thats the point, of course. But despite TiVos clearly misleading conduct, many posters abandoned all pretense at social accommodation and unloaded on the OP instead of acknowledging that she would be understandably angry at having been victimized by TiVos sleaziness.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> I've recently seen television advertisements (The first in years) talking up TTG and while it's clearly a 540 series 2 in background there is no mention anywhere in the ad that it's only available on Series 2 devices. The ad talks about TiVo as if there was only one available, it doesn't go into recording times, HD v SD, or dual tuners. This blanket ad is misleading or it needs a disclaimer. Maybe they can publish one at the end of the ad that's too small to read on a 25" SD television to make it better.


Gotcha, that certainly sounds like it's a bit misleading. (even more so than I consider pretty much all other advertising to be misleading)



> Thats the point, of course. But despite TiVos clearly misleading conduct, many posters abandoned all pretense at social accommodation and unloaded on the OP instead of acknowledging that she would be understandably angry at having been victimized by TiVos sleaziness.


For good reason. She wasn't victimized by Tivo's sleaziness, she was a fool for doing *no* research before spending hundreds of dollars on a piece of electronics.


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