# I made a terrible mistake... Is there any salvation?



## sc00by (Oct 29, 2001)

Ok, I am not one to hide from their mistakes, but this one is a doozy and I'm "praying" that there's a solution in the future...

(Note: I've been trying to keep up with all the conversations here about the S3 and HD Tivo's but frankly you guys talk too much to keep up )

To put it in the support group vernacular, "Hello, my name is Wayne. I've been a Tivoholic since 2001".  I've also got a nasty movie addiction...

Anyway. In May for my birthday, I broke down and bought myself a 50" Sony XBR1 HDTV set. With my one-year commitment to d* ending on June 3rd, I started looking at alternatives for getting HDTV. No sense in having a $3k set if you can't use it, right?

Weighing heavily in my equation was the need for local HD channels, since mostly what I do is watch network shows. I was already predisposed against OTA antennas, due to the experiences of my Brother-in-law, and d* says that HD Locals weren't available in my area. Toss in the fact that d* moronically walked away from Tivo and that pretty much kills any idea in my mind of staying with direcTV right there....

Enter my local group of friends, all of whom use Comcast's service here locally and their Motorola 6412 "DVR" (which I now refer to as "Dumbed-down VCR for ********"). After several weeks, I let them talk me into going this way and getting rid of my d* Tivos.

After two weeks of having this in my house, I really, really feel as though I'm dying here. No exaggeration... I can't find and record any of the shows I want unless they're already coming on, I can't do wishlists, or anything more than perform rudimentary "Tapeless VCR functions" and I'm sorry, but I can't see how in the world Comcast (or anyone else) can sell this tripe with a clear conscience...

Put succinctly, I am desperate. I'm beginning to feel like Smeagel in that I *neeeed my precious* (lol)..... At the same time, I don't see any logical reason to move back to direcTV save for the short (and expensive) term solution.

Does anyone know anything about the release of a non-d* HD SA Tivo? When? How much? (though right now, I'm desperate so cost is less of a factor emotionally speaking). Is there anyone I can beg to be a beta tester for one? 

Ok, great, now I'm feeling a bit Veruca Salt... "I want HD Tivo! I want it now!" 

Wayne


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

Short answer. No.

The ONLY HD PVR powered by TiVo software is the HR10-250 D* Receiver with TiVo. There are NO firm dates as to when anything else will be on the market so anything you read anywhere as of this time is pure speculation. And no, you won't get to be a beta tester as the list is long and many are not getting anything to test.

Anything else?


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

The only thing you can do at the moment is wait patiently. No matter how tough that may be it is your only current option.

Good luck man, I'm right there with you, ever since I got my HDTV I look at the guide to see what I want to watch live so I can expericence HD. My Tivo still provides a valuable service but the shows that are on it went from my favorites to my secondaries.


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## sc00by (Oct 29, 2001)

@guindalf,

Wow, I appreciate the answer though I must say that you sound a bit less than perky. 

@SeanC

I can imagine a lot of people are in the trenches with me, even moreso as HDTV begins taking longer and faster strides towards dominance. I just hope that Tivo can catch up quickly.

In fairness to Comcast, their service is "just fine" (though not as ground-breaking as direcTV in either picture OR sound). It's only their retarded tapeless recorder that is causing me massive mental anguish..

Wayne


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## fatcat220 (Mar 29, 2006)

Sc00by, why are you against OTAs?


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## sc00by (Oct 29, 2001)

@fatcat220,

My brother-in-law has an OTA which has been professionally installed and optimized (Sorry, I don't know the make/model) and the picture/sound quality is about 1/3 what even Comcast's digital cable (which I consider 1/2 as good as d*) provides.

Granted, it may be unique to his situation, and it may be a combo of his TV and his antenna, but I'm just not impressed. Combine that with the fact that to bring in HD, I'd still have to do the expensive d* upgrade for leased equipment and d* is about to abandon Tivo anyway, so that's why I feel so abandoned and helpless here.

Wayne


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## Eben (Jul 19, 2001)

sc00by said:


> @fatcat220,
> 
> My brother-in-law has an OTA which has been professionally installed and optimized (Sorry, I don't know the make/model) and the picture/sound quality is about 1/3 what even Comcast's digital cable (which I consider 1/2 as good as d*) provides.
> 
> ...


It must be standard def OTA your b-i-l's getting, because if it's digital TV, either you get the signal or you don't. Have you checked antennaweb to see what digital TV is available OTA in your area?


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

sc00by said:


> Does anyone know anything about the release of a non-d* HD SA Tivo? When? How much? (though right now, I'm desperate so cost is less of a factor emotionally speaking). Is there anyone I can beg to be a beta tester for one?
> 
> Ok, great, now I'm feeling a bit Veruca Salt... "I want HD Tivo! I want it now!"
> 
> Wayne


Just heard DISH network launched 4 new HD channels today (national geographic, Starz, HGTV and NFL HD). They also offer HD locals and from what I am reading their VIP622 seems real good. (check out reviews on cnet.com)

Here is a link to a special promo for new customers:

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=24365

Good luck and please report back on PQ if you try Dish. Thanks.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

sc00by said:


> @fatcat220,
> 
> My brother-in-law has an OTA which has been professionally installed and optimized (Sorry, I don't know the make/model) and the picture/sound quality is about 1/3 what even Comcast's digital cable (which I consider 1/2 as good as d*) provides.
> 
> ...


OTA is of the best quality (but more prone to blips and other interference) over Comcast/DirecTV/Dish HD offerings period. Sounds like your B-I-L got hosed on his antenna situation.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

sc00by said:


> After two weeks of having this in my house, I really, really feel as though I'm dying here. No exaggeration... I can't find and record any of the shows I want unless they're already coming on, I can't do wishlists, or anything more than perform rudimentary "Tapeless VCR functions" and I'm sorry, but I can't see how in the world Comcast (or anyone else) can sell this tripe with a clear conscience...


If You decide to stay with Comcast, make sure you get the 6412 series III (should say 'DCT6412 III' in lower right corner of box). Also check and make sure the firmware is 12.18 or above. I switched to Comcast and love the 6412's speed at setting up recordings.

True there is no wishlist but I never really used those with HDTivo. The search function and program guides are complete and fast (not sure why you are having a problem). I do believe the moto's 120gb hdd is TOO SMALL. Luckily I was able to pick up 2 Sony HD Dvrs when they were $250 but that deal is gone.

If I didn't have the sony for capacity and Dish HD PQ was as good as Comcast, I think I would go with the DISH VIP622.

If the moto 6412 III is not available or you do not receive HBO, Cinemax , SHO, Starz, locals, TNT, UHD, PBS, Discovery, INHD1 and 2, and ESPN in HD then I would definitely switch to DISH.

It is probably a very wise decision to have left D*. They are behind EVERYONE when it comes to HD programming and PQ. No one (including Guindalf) can dispute that.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

rifleman69 said:


> OTA is of the best quality (but more prone to blips and other interference) over Comcast/DirecTV/Dish HD offerings period. Sounds like your B-I-L got hosed on his antenna situation.


OTA is better when comparing to DTV HD national feed. I have HD OTA with cable (sonyDHG HDD500) and the local HD feed from cable is actually a little better then the OTA. Either way Comcast blows D*'s PQ away.

I, like the OP never liked the idea of OTA and I am very pleased that I discovered another option. I still have my ugly Channel master on the roof though (now connected to my sony).


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## KSbugeater (Jan 26, 2006)

Scooby, you act like OTA is to be feared like Old Man Krebs in a vampire suit! (Sorry, couldn't resist the reference to the cartoon!) I'm here to debunk your fear like a "meddling kid."

Looking at a map of Huntsville's stations, they appear to be closely spaced on the east side. Depending on local terrain and your distance, I would say OTA should be fairly easy. Heck, I pull in stations from over 60 miles away with a setup that I did myself (albeit not beautiful). 

If you like TiVo that much, go back to D* and get the HD TiVo, but you might want to test reception with an OTA receiver first. If you can get reception, you won't be sorry with an HR10-250. (Unless you MUST have folders and a lightning-fast guide like some people in this thread.)


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## bjam69 (Dec 20, 2004)

With the SXRD set, you should be able to hook up an OTA antenna and see what you get w/o the HR10-250. Use antennaweb.org to find the exact degrees to point your antenna at and you should be able to pick up your locals. Give it a try. If that works, go get the HD Tivo..you won't regret it....it's still a great unit!!!!


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

I had a similar experience to you, tried the cable DVR POS and after a few weeks even my wife was ready to spend the money on HD Tivo. We have no problem with over the air locals, they are 100% reliable and picture perfect from our attic mounted TV antenna. Best of all, no rain fade when you get your locals over the air. No matter how hard it rains or snows, we never lose our local digital HD channels. 

As far as I'm conserned, HD Tivo with a TV antenna and Sat dish is still the best by far. 

Here's what I'd recommend, check antennaweb.org and see if the digital channels in your area are all broadcast in the UHF band. If so, get a Terk HDTVi antenna. Don't buy any other Terks, the HDTVi is the only one that works. They are sold at Circuit City and some other stores. 

Connect it to your TV, do a DIGITAL channel scan from the over the air antenna input and see what you pick up. Remember that most HD programs are broadcast in primetime in the evening. My Brother in Law has the same TV you have and it is fantastic.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I always had cable and tivo. Never had DirectTV or an HDTV.

Bought a 61 inch Samsung DLP last week, and Comcast just left.

Boy, that DVR sucks ass. How can anyone use it?


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

fastep said:


> If You decide to stay with Comcast, make sure you get the 6412 series III (should say 'DCT6412 III' in lower right corner of box). Also check and make sure the firmware is 12.18 or above. I switched to Comcast and love the 6412's speed at setting up recordings.
> 
> True there is no wishlist but I never really used those with HDTivo. The search function and program guides are complete and fast (not sure why you are having a problem). I do believe the moto's 120gb hdd is TOO SMALL. Luckily I was able to pick up 2 Sony HD Dvrs when they were $250 but that deal is gone.
> 
> ...


Why do you have to prove what a troll you are with digs at people? We KNOW you don't like D* and we KNOW that you will take shots at them at EVERY opportunity, so why do you feel the need to shoot at me?

There's far more involved in the decision as to which service to choose. To some, it's the availability of HD programming, to others, TiVo and yet others are concerned with cost, PQ and a million other reasons. However, I say make an informed choice - and DON'T listen to trolls.

You, my friend, have long become a troll and there's NOTHING you could tell me that would convince me, or most other informed people, otherwise. So, do the world a favor and give it up!


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Comcast and TiVo have reached an agreement that will allow Comcast to offer TiVo software in 2007. If you wait long enough you should have TiVo and Comcast together for the first time.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

I have the 60" version of the XBR - nice set - and had the same quandry as you.

I have three HD DVRs:

Motorola 6412 III
HR10-250 (DirecTV)
Sony DHG-250 (Comcast feed)

The Sony DVR has the best picture from cable, which I expect to be similar to that of the Series 3.

I would go nuts if I had to rely on the Motorola box with the iGuide software, but am keeping it around in hopes that the Tivo s/w load will be around soon. Search on that box? LOL!

If I had just gotten my set, I would get the Motorola box for a few months and wait for the Series 3.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

My choice is the same TV but I am holding off unil the S3 arrives. Figure there is nothing out there to provide programming for such a nice TV yet. 

I have cancelled DTV and changed to Comcast in anticipation and in the SD world DTV no longer has the advantage. Once the S3 arrives Comcast will be way ahead as a better choice than DTV. 

Just hold on, you are moving in the right direction.


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## pintnight (Oct 6, 2004)

I will never ever go back to cable after what I had to go through with Comcast over 10 years ago. Customer service and the cable service sucked really bad. Cable goes out nearly every day and nobody really cared about fixing it. :down:


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## ike (Feb 26, 2002)

Eben said:


> It must be standard def OTA your b-i-l's getting, because if it's digital TV, either you get the signal or you don't. Have you checked antennaweb to see what digital TV is available OTA in your area?


That's a common misconception.

With Digital TV you can:

Get a great signal and great picture
Get a good signal and great picture
Get a decent signal and great picture but blocky/pixelated from time to time
Get a poor signal and sometimes a great pic, sometimes blocky, sometimes gone
Get very poor signal and get no picture ever

The signal coming from the TV antenna to your house is analog - even though it has digitial information on it. A poor signal doesn't necessairly mean "Signal Strength". This signal suffers from the same propagation propblems than Analog TV signals suffer. Multipath can cause problems in DTV. Wind blowing nearby trees causes all sorts of problems for me.


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## kbcrowe (Dec 12, 2000)

Scooby, If you live in Huntsville you should be able to get good OTA reception without much trouble. The only folks I've heard of having real problems are those on the wrong side of Green Mountain. I live in Madison and I did have to use an amp but my brother lives in Decatur and gets everything fine with an indoor Silver Sensor antenna.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

sc00by said:


> @fatcat220,
> 
> My brother-in-law has an OTA which has been professionally installed and optimized (Sorry, I don't know the make/model) and the picture/sound quality is about 1/3 what even Comcast's digital cable (which I consider 1/2 as good as d*) provides.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I invested $59 at Best Buy and purchased an indoor antenna (Terk HDTVa) - many have scorned it... - just to see if I'd be able to get OTA *before* I made the plunge to the HR10-250. As it worked out, I was able to get them, clearly, all the majors. Then I purchased my own HR10-250. I have already committed to D* and we had the whole HD setup installed. IOW, I invested 30 minutes to drive to BB and almost broke a nail opening the package, and that was all it took to see if OTA would work for me. You might consider that before you give up.

I know your pain. But in my case, I spent $400 for the HR10, folks here seem to think it will be viable for D* HD (other than locals) for a couple of years (yes, that's an unknown risk) and I can get my locals indefinitely using the HR10. What's the absolute worst that can happen? When D* puts HBO HD on MPEG4, I won't be able to watch HBO/Showtime in HD - but I'll always have my locals (which is what I watch primarily) in HD.


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## hoopsrgreat (Jan 2, 2005)

tO ALMSOT ECHO THE PREVIOS POST. gO TO HOME DEPOT, GET a rooftop antenna for like 60 bucks. Run a line from the antenna through a windo or something(as direct as possible) to your TV. Scan (digitally) for channels. Have the wife sit in the LR and you stay on the roof and move the antenna around to see if you can get them HD networks OTA. If it works, GREAT!! Mount the darn antenna and rerun the wires correctly. 
If it doesnt work, put the antenna back in the box, take it back to home depot and get a refund. The worst scenario is you are out the 2 hours for that entire process, including the trip to home depot.

Dont get a small antenna, just go straight to a rooftop antenna, this way you will know for sure wether or not you can receive the stations OTAS. A small terk indoor antenna wont work for me. Im 60 miles from the towers, but a rooftop gets ALL networks in perfectly.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

I think it is too bad that you wouldn't consider OTA with the HR10-250. My OTA setup works great. It took a lot of time and effort to get it to work right, but once I did get it working right I have never looked back. 

The person who said that cable looks better than OTA for HD is either A) fooling themselves, or B) in one of the very few markets where Comcast gets the HD OTA signal from the source prior to the compression that gets it ready for the 6Mhz of bandwidth allowed by ATSC.

If me and the cable company both get the source OTA, then it would be impossible for cable to look better than the same signal I get OTA. In some markets the cableco will get the signal from the source prior to its final pre-broadcast compression. I think these cases are the exception and not the rule. Even where a cableco may be getting the semi-compressed source signal as opposed to the fully compressed source signal that we get OTA, just because the cableco gets such a source for one broadcaster doesn't mean they get it for all broadcasters in a market (i.e. may get Fox & NBC, but might not get ABC and CBS).

Another problem with cablecos is that most do not carry subchannels. In most cases this is not important but there are situations where desireable content is on a subchannel. And while cablecos generally carry more local channels in HD than DirecTV is currently (DirecTV is just offering ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX for the MPEG4 markets), most cablecos still aren't offering full carriage.

Until cablecos and DirecTV offer full carriage of all local HD stations, all sub channels, and do all of them at full bandwidth, I consider it a great advantage to be able to use an OTA antenna.


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## pesos (Mar 23, 2003)

cable (or D) does not look as good as OTA. I guess I'm lucky to live where I do (albany/berkeley hills with a direct view of the ENORMOUS tower over in San Francisco) but I picked up a cheap terk internal antenna at radio shack, pointed it out my window, and I get all the channels. works great with the hr10-250. I will definitely be using this setup until the s3 appears and drops in price (assuming comcast has their act together at that point).

-Wes


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

hoopsrgreat said:


> tO ALMSOT ECHO THE PREVIOS POST. gO TO HOME DEPOT, GET a rooftop antenna for like 60 bucks. Run a line from the antenna through a windo or something(as direct as possible) to your TV. Scan (digitally) for channels. Have the wife sit in the LR and you stay on the roof and move the antenna around to see if you can get them HD networks OTA. If it works, GREAT!! Mount the darn antenna and rerun the wires correctly.
> If it doesnt work, put the antenna back in the box, take it back to home depot and get a refund. The worst scenario is you are out the 2 hours for that entire process, including the trip to home depot.
> 
> Dont get a small antenna, just go straight to a rooftop antenna, this way you will know for sure wether or not you can receive the stations OTAS. A small terk indoor antenna wont work for me. Im 60 miles from the towers, but a rooftop gets ALL networks in perfectly.


Agreed - I just did the indoor route b/c we don't "own" our roof and if my neighbor saw me putting up an antenna, he'd whine and then I'd have to *****slap him.

But point well taken - I was lucky, my terk worked right away.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

ike said:


> That's a common misconception.
> 
> With Digital TV you can:
> 
> ...


And that is also a misconception, but an easy conclusion to jump to.

If you consider digital "reception" by its typically understood meaning, which is the set of tasks performed by a tuner or demodulator and then the decoder, 8VSB reception actually only exists in one of two states _at any point in time_, which are:

1. Perfect reception
2. No reception

You either have enough bit to prevent buffer underflow, or you don't. When you have enough bits you have a perfect picture. When you don't, parts of the picture do not get refreshed in a timely manner, manifesting in macroblocking. If this goes on for more than a second or so, the decoder mutes to black. Without enough bits received in a timely manner, that is "no reception" by definition.

The confusion comes when you start to regard reception _over a period of time_ (such as a few seconds) rather than at any one point in time. Since during a 30-second sampling period you can move from state 1 to state 2 and back many times, resulting in the decoder not refreshing the image properly, this gives the illusion that there is some middle ground, but the truth is that you are still bound by either state, sometimes referred to as the "digital cliff", and called that for good reason. But that appearance of a degraded or "poor" reception is only an illusion, there is no middle ground. As far as the decoder is concerned, it is all or none at any point in time. Human perception regards the past, present, and future, so humans can regard this as something in between if basing their perception over a chunk of time. Physical devices such as 8VSB tuners can only regard the present, so they are either receiving a perfect signal, or they aren't.



ike said:


> ...The signal coming from the TV antenna to your house is analog - even though it has digitial information on it...This signal suffers from the same propagation propblems than Analog TV signals suffer...


Not exactly. The _carrier_ which the digital signal is modulated onto is analog, but that is just a vehicle that is eventually removed by the tuner. "Signal" implies information, and a carrier has no information without modulation. The signal itself is purely digital.

ATSC does not suffer at all from most of the propogation problems that NTSC suffers from, including thermal noise, impulse noise, group delay, differential gain and phase, etc., which is why digital modulation is used in the first place. The carriers themselves are indeed prone to the same environmental issues, but the ways that they affect NTSC vs. ATSC reception are entirely different, and manifest in entirely different ways, which is why the reception strategies typically used are markedly different.


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## jennifer (Dec 2, 2001)

Scoob, I live right out side of Decatur, AL, close to the interstate. I get fantastic reception with a Channel Master 4228. You could try the Silver Sensor as well. Didn't work for me, but you are most likely closer to the towers than I am.

It will be awhile before D* phases out the ability of the HDTivo to pick up their channels, so you will definitely get your money and pleasure worth out of your purchase


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## finaldiet (May 10, 2004)

I'm with Spanky. My OTA channels come in great! Went in attic to take a look for future antenna and saw a disconnecrted one laying on a box, all dirty. Ran a cable to HR10-250 and picture was great. Signal strenght was in low 90's on every channel. Lucked out!!


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## aclure (Dec 2, 2005)

I am probably going to get flack for this but I use the RCA Clip on antenna on my dish and receive all of the Dallas locals OTA just fine. I had to go this route as I live in an apartment. So if that is your only option give it a try. Make sure it is HDTV compatible though i bought the wrong one the first time.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Whatever works, dude. No flack here. DTV can be received perfectly on a paper clip under the right circumstances.

HDTV compatible? Are we speaking of the antenna itself? If it is cut for the proper frequencies (which are quite often the same as NTSC frequencies) that should not be an issue. The antenna doesn't know or care if the modulation is ATSC or NTSC, just that there is RF current induced into it. Antennae can be _engineered_ to take some slight advantages in the differences in reception strategies, but few are, any such engineering would have minimal effect, and basically, any antenna with the correct bandwidth will do. For difficult reception scenarios you generally want to look for high-directionality, high gain (10 dB plus for UHF), and a good front-to-back ratio (none of which a paper clip has, BTW).

"HDTV compatible" is more of an actually meaningless marketing/branding strategy to push you off the fence toward buying that particular product if that is the one you are holding in your hands while browsing at BB. It might make you feel better about not making the wrong decision, but it's all about buyer perception and doesn't really mean a whole lot, technically speaking. (no flack intended  )


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

I was in the same boat as you... I bought a 4228 and mounted it outside (due to my chicken wire and stucco taco bell looking adobe house). The I purchased a $500 media PC and a couple HD OTA tuners. I am recording HD with no monthly's. Guide is not bad at all. Also to help your current viewing experience I would suggest you sign up (for free) to Titan TV at least you can search and see if the show is in the two (or one) week window.

When it comes down to it, it's TV it's content. It's not all about pretty menu's. I still hang with d*tv for NFLST or I would be gone......

Good luck and get a OTA antenna it is the best source (and no monthy charge :up: )


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