# Beware of PTVUpgrade.com



## susanandmark (Apr 16, 2001)

We own way too many TiVos and, over the years, have upgraded all of them through PTVupgrade.com. I've always been happy with them and their easy-to-follow, self-install instructions. 

Unfortunately, my last transaction didn't go as smoothly and I found the company extremely difficult to deal with.

Recently, one of our tiro's started acting wink (it would reboot itself about halfway through any recording you tried to watch). I assumed the hard drive had gone bad and ordered one (for $169) from PTVupgrade.com to replace it. After I'd placed the ordered, my was saying that he didn't think it'd been that long since we bought the upgrade for that unit to begin with. I went back and checked and he was right, we'd made the purchase last March and the hard drive died in April.

Since the replacement order had already been made (it was the exact same drive that had failed), I wrote asking if anything could be done--like a credit towards a future order (we were thinking of purchasing another HDTV, the most expensive item on their site). I was stunned when I got a very annoyed response saying they'd give me a $50 credit (the item cost $169), but only toward the most expensive unit and went on to say why I didn't deserve it anyway, while at the same time saying the hard drive should have a three-five year manufacture's warranty. Huh?

Baffled by this I tried to explain the situation again, but kept getting increasingly hostile responses from PTVupgrade. Finally, I was told they didn't want my business anyway and that they had issued an RMA number for the replacement drive (which I'd yet to receive at that point).

OK, not wanting to deal with them either at this point (I was shocked about why there were so upset--They didn't have to issue any credit, but they have to be mean either), I returned the unit. Only after that I was told they were planning to charge me a "restocking fee" on the item THEY insisted I return because they didn't want my business (don't mind keeping my money though, I guess).

I tried to explain this was totally unacceptable. They would get their unit back (at my return shipping expense) but I wanted a full refund. Period.

Since then it's just been back and forth from what sounds more like a playground bully than a legit business. Unfortunately, it looks as if I'll have no choice but to contest the charge and hope my credit card company will back me up. (I have proof of return and the correspondence log.)

I just wanted to warn others. I know they have lots of fans on this forum (and I have no doubt some, probably ptvupgrade.com themselves, will slam me for this post, just based on their behavior so far) and, if everything goes smoothly, their products seem fine (like I said, I have three hard drives from them and only this most recent one has had problems). The service though is lacking, to say the least.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

susanandmark said:


> We own way too many *tiros* and, over the years, have upgraded all of them through PTVupgrade.com. I've always been happy with them and their easy-to-follow, self-install instructions.
> 
> Unfortunately, my last transaction didn't go as smoothly and I found the company extremely difficult to deal with.
> 
> Recently, one of our *tiro's* started acting *wink* (it would reboot itself about halfway through any recording you tried to watch).


Tiro --> TiVo.

You may want to edit your post, or you'll get some lame-a$$ chiming in that it's no wonder PTVupgrade was giving you a hard time, because they don't sell parts for *Tiros*!

Sorry you're having the problems, but if everything you described happened in the same day, I'd say wait another day so that everyone has had a chance to cool off and then call back. Start over and state your situation calmly and rationally, and let them know you've been a long time customer and want to know how to resolve this unfortunate situation. You never know... different day, different customer service rep, maybe a better outcome for you.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Although I am inclined to cut and paste the entire dialogue to the message board, in our defense, I am not going to do so. 

To put it shortly, the situation has been misrepresented. What happened is that the OP purchased a kit to replace one that had been purchased over a year ago, and subsequently contacted us and asked if the defective product could be traded-in towards the purchase of another product on the basis that it had been lightly-used (only 8 season passes on it).

In response we indicated that regardless of the number of season passes on the drive, that the drive had been in use for over a year, and was not covered by our warranty; that there was nothing we could do with a "traded-in" drive and that in spite of that, we would give her a $50 credit towards the purchase of the kit she described.

The next response was essentially, "if that's the best you can do, then I want a refund on the kit I purchased and I will take my business elsewhere." We issued an RMA, and that is that. Or so I thought.

Today's exchange was essentially a disagreement realted to our return policy, and given the threats of disputing charges, claims to have filed complaints with the BBB, and insults related to the quality of our customer service, we are not inclined to offer any more favors at this point. And by the way, we haven't even gotten the product back.

It is unfortunate that we cannot keep everybody happy all the time, however in this situation, we actually offered a discount in a situation where none was entitled. In exchange, it was thrown back in our faces in a very rude way, and our involvement in this argument has taken away from things that are more important. 

I would suggest to anyone purchasing anything from us: Read the return policy prior to completing your purchase. If you do not understand the details, or have a question about any of our supported products or services, please just ask. For those of you who know us, we are relatively fast to respond to inquries, even in the off-hours. 

Thanks and have a great weekend,

Lou


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

If the drive is only a bit over a year old, isn't it possibly covered by warranty? I know a lot of drives are only 1 year nowadays, but some are still 5 year.. (I mean by the drive manufacturer)


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## Deacon West (Apr 16, 2006)

Lou, I've had great dealings with your company and have recommended you to members of my family who also were more than satisfied. That being said, sometimes it might be worth your while to turn the other cheek. 

I used to argue with customers when I thought my position was just and our clearly stated and posted policy backed me up. Whenever the customer would threaten BBB, small claims, or the "telling all their friends" tactic, it would only cement my position further to do the very least I could for them.

Now the business I manage still does not have a Wal-Mart type we'll take anything back and give you twice your money back policy. However, I have noticed that since the policy on customer returns/satisfaction has been liberalized, I have less problems and the business has seen substantial growth. I'm not saying it is directly related, but in my field, it has worked for me.

It is hard being flamed by someone who threatens and insults and then having to go ahead and offer to do more for them than the 99.9% of good customers that don't cause problems and are a plesure to deal with. That being said, often, at least in my profession, it is the right call. Good luck from someone who understands, at least in part, what you are going through.

And publically, for the record, Lou is a great guy and easy to deal with. I highly recommend him.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

susanandmark said:


> I just wanted to warn others.


Certainly a noble impulse. But I doubt anybody around here needs warning at this point. This is a company of considerable competence and service. A bit pricey, but they do what they say they do and there is general satisfaction and agreement about that.

But this is a hobbiest supplier, and not a retail consumer-oriented company. They are essentially adding value to retail (or in some cases free) products and selling them to hobbiests willing to pay for the added value. I've also heard that they are pretty good at providing pre-sale advice, or post-sale advice that does not involve any refunds, credit on future purchases, or any other such heresies.

Despite the margins, I doubt anybody there is getting rich, and a hundred dollars credit is probably a pretty big dent in a day's profit.

They are not a company from which to expect anything (involving $) beyond what is specifically spelled out. They don't work that way. And they have a history of severely resenting anybody who presumes to ask for more than that.

You were mistaken in expecting that. Move on.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

All I can say is that *susanandmark* expected far too much from PTVUpgrade.com and the CSR at PTVUpgrade.com should have closed the case when they offered the $50 credit and not said anything else. 

Most hard drives from Western Digital and Maxtor only have one year warranties with Seagate being an exception. But then again the hard drives that Weaknees.com and PTVUpgrade.com are OEM hard drives and almost all OEM hard drives usually have shorter warranties than retail hard drives.

I know that it is pain when a hard drive fails, but then again, some of causes of hard drive failures are beyond the control of the manufacturer, the reseller, and the consumer. But I know that if just one of my hard drives failed it would be a pain, because I currently have 25 hard drives running in my household, 24 hours a day, with 18 in computers and 7 in TiVos. I have lost about four hard drives since 1998, but all of those failures except one were caused by the IBM pixie dust problem (2 IBM and 2 Quantum/Maxtor) and all were under warranty. And I know that I am bucking a trend with the small number of failures that I have had; my Sony SVR-2000 has its original OEM hard drive and an additional Maxtor retail 60GB hard drive that I added to it in June of 2000, and both drives are still running, knock on wood.

Additional Edit:

I side with Redux on this one; *Move on*.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

wj777 said:


> Lou, I've had great dealings with your company and have recommended you to members of my family who also were more than satisfied. That being said, sometimes it might be worth your while to turn the other cheek.


I agree completely. We HAVE turned the other cheek. However, I did feel a response was necessary here... thx for the insights.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

tbeckner said:


> Most hard drives from Western Digital and Maxtor only have one year warranties with Seagate being an exception. But then again the hard drives that Weaknees.com and PTVUpgrade.com are OEM hard drives and almost all OEM hard drives usually have shorter warranties than retail hard drives.


Thx for the good words. One correction, however: We do not sell OEM hard drives, other than the ones that come with some units (like the HR10-250), so the manufacturer warranties offered direct to the end user are still available to the end-user, regardless of whether we supply the hard drives, or not.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

susanandmark said:


> _{a lot of ignorant whining removed - whoops! nothing left to quote.} _


If ordering an upgrade drive from Ptvupgrade was a mistake, it was your mistake and you are the one who should pay for it. Ptvupgrade is not in business to pay for your stupidity.

I only have more respect for ptvupgrade now because they wouldn't kiss your ignorant butt.


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## MMG (Dec 11, 1999)

I always read these complaint posts with an open mind. One of the things I'll do to verify the validity of the complainer is to look at their post history. This particular poster likes to complain about a lot of stuff. Very high signal/noise ratio here.... move on...


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

The only way this complaint could even be considered legitimate is if maybe there were a mis-communication between the two parties. Is it possible that the OP was saying one thing and the Co. was hearing something else?

In other words, if the OP was going to immediately return the un-opened package (new drive) and was asking for a full refund towards the purchase of something else because they thought they might be able to get the old drive replaced thru the manufacture, well then that would be a fair, legitimate request given the fact they had purchased from the Co. before. I could also see the Co. requesting that the OP pay for the shipping of the drive both ways which also would be fair.

But if the OP wanted to keep the drive and still get some kind of store credit what is that all about? What a wonderful concept, if that is indeed the case. I'll order something over the internet, make a hugh stink about it by complaining on the Forum that is the most important place for the Company's reputation and trash them with derogatory comments. That way they'll be forced to agree to my evil plans.

Did you really think this through before you posted this complaint? You've got the E-mails from the company, prove that they sent you a "very annoyed response". Maybe it was only annoying because you weren't getting what you wanted, a free ride.

Common, prove that you "found the company extremely difficult to deal with". There's two sides to every story and unless either you or Co. post what was really communicated between the two of you it's all BS faceless charges.

And I certainly would take offense if you came here trashing my company's reputation without any proof what so ever.

Y-ASK


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Quite a bit of speculation as to what may have been said, implied, or inferred. I might have been better to have completely ignored the thread, or reported it, but I'd rather ensure that my name is cleared than use my sponsorship weight as a way to stifle the community, no matter how miffed or curious some of its members may be.

If there is going to be a mass analysis, I might as well get the facts out there. I'm not 100% happy with my responses, but I believe they were made with the right intentions and I believe we made the right decision to walk away from a customer like this.

Before you read this, please understand that I *am* aware of the fact that some of my customers and my competitors are reading this. I am a relatively open person and I run my business in an open manner. I know that my competitors may relish in seeing things like this, however I know for a fact that EVERY vendor has situations like this, so I do this on behalf of everyone who has had to make a decision to not compromise the quality of a business by trying to keep everyone happy all the time.

As an aside, some of the valuable lessons I've learned in the past 20 years include a few interesting observations.

1) the customer _isn't_ always right (that *doesn't* mean the customer is always wrong)

2) not all customers are equal

3) take people as seriously as they take you (or vice versa)

4) respect is earned, not mandated

I'd like to think I've learned a little more than that, but I'm already drifting off-topic...

OK, at this point I'm assuming that if you really aren't interested in this, you wouldn't be reading it... brace yourself.

 
Initial email:

Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:04:51 -0500

We've made several purchases from PTV Upgrade and have always been very happy with the service. Most recently we were forced to replace a malfunctioning hard drive (we're waiting for the replacement to arrive now--order #PTV-20X-00-5404) on one of the units (hard drive) that we purchased from you on 2/15/2005 (order #PTV-20X-00-2774). I know it's been just over a year but is there any sort of replacement available for this drive? We'd be more than happy to return the non-functioning drive. Even if you could give us a credit on a future order (we're considering adding another upgraded HD DirecTiVo) that would be great. It just seems like this lightly-used (it's in the den and only has eight season pass/wish lists) unit should have lasted more than 15 months.

First response:

Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:23:39 -0500

Thanks for your email; we do appreciate your business. The drive you are referring to has been in service for well over a year, so that is more than 'lightly used" - remember, your TiVo is running non-stop (unless you actually turn it off).

What I'd recommend you do is this -- send us the drive so we can diagnose it and verify that it is under manufacturer's warranty. If it is, we can give you a $50 trade-in credit towards the purchase of an upgraded HR10-250 unit. Please understand that at best, we will be exchanging your defective drive with the manufacturer for a refurbished one - one that we cannot resell to anyone directly, only to be used internally or in the case of a repair. So our offer to discount you is out of good faith more than anything else.

Hopefully that is acceptable to you.

Thanks and regards, 
Lou Jacob 
PTVupgrade

Subsequent response:

Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:44:41 -0500

The item hasn't really been in use for "well over" a year at barely 14 months old. We've spent well over $500 with your company already and were talking about spending another $1,500. I guess I thought my request was fairly realistic.

The TiVo in question had a grand total of eight season passes/wishlists and, though I understand it is on all the time, all my other TiVos (we have four others), and their hard drives, have been running LONGER than the drive in question. We replaced the drive with the exact same size from the same vendor (you). That was kind of my point. We didn't gain anything and expecting something to run for say, two years, is hardly asking for the moon.

 
Another response:

Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:05:15 -0500

You sound upset. Not sure what the problem is though. I am almost certain that I offered you a trade in for your kit, but also explained wny 'light' use with respect to your use really has no bearing on the matter; in short, the drive has been in use for over a year, its been spinning and recording for as long as its been installed; its worth nothing to us however we are willing to give you a discount on your next purchase.

Lastly, the drive is warranted by the manufacturer for three years, possibly five, depending upon the type of drive. Some drives break, as yours may have done - we never had the opportunity to diagnose the problem - and most run for many years without issue; that is the nature of electronic devices.

I'm sorry if this has been a negative experience for you, you did ask for a discount and it is uncommon for us to offer them, yet we did offer you one, so again I'm unsure of the tone of upset in your previous email....

Lou

A request for a refund on the recently purchased product:

Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:18:20 -0500

If the drive is under warranty for three to five years it's been nowhere near that. A $50 credit for a $170 product, pending a $1,500 sale seems pretty skimpy. I asked for a credit because I didn't think a refund was in order. Now, I'd just like a refund on the product and I'll take my business elsewhere.

A final, and less than ideal, response granting it; in hindsight, I should have just issued the RMA with a bureaucratic response like most other companies do...

Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:32:58 -0500

OK -

So lets recap... A product you purchased from us, over a year ago, broke. We offer a six month warranty and a $75 recertification process to replace the drive under the manufacturer's warranty. Instead, you choose to purchase another kit, and you then ask us for a discount towards your next purchase, on the basis that you barely used the product and that it shouldn't have broken. And in spite of the fact that there is no difference between a disk drive running for 14 months in a TiVo with zero season passes, and one with 100 season passes, we still offer you a discount.

And these are the responses we get?

Your RMA is on the way.

-----

Now at this point, we sent an RMA, which documented a 15% restocking charge. We heard nothing for about a week and then another flood of emails challenging our return policy, threatening credit card disputes, BBB complaints and a lecture on how to offer better customer service.

I'd really prefer to not cut and paste the escalation of threats, defensive responses, etc - they don't make anyone look particularly good. Suffice it to say that in my opinion, this was an unhappy customer that was particularly upset that she did not get what she wanted. We made a concession early in the dialogue; there were then a series of hostile responses, and an indication that she really had no interest in doing further business with us (or more realistically, her business simply wasn't worth it to "earn" at that point). I made a business decision to move onto more productive matters.

Of course, now I've lapsed into this, however in the spirit of keeping our good name intact, I think a defense is required.

Lou


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

A one year warranty is offered, it's beyond one year. I don't see how you can find any fault at all with PTVUpgrade over this. It's out of their warranty period.

The physical drive itself probably isn't out of warranty though... so you could contact the manufacturer directly for a warranty replacement, of course that means you'd have to run their diagnostic program and fill out an online form with the info it gives plus the serial number of the drive. You almost always can get a cross shipment, too, just by providing a credit card. Now you have a bare drive. You could just install it yourself, or you could use it for a computer and buy a pre-configured drive for your TiVo from someone, or you probably can even send it to PTVUpgrade to have software loaded on it for a fee.

You're out of line complaining about PTVUpgrade, though, in this circumstance. As it is, they went out of their way trying to be helpful to you. And in return, how did you treat them?


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

This just demonstrates that there are always people out there that want something for nothing.

This kind of reminds me of a case we might see on the "Peoples Court", where the plaintiff is so out of line, its ridiculous. If she does sue PTV, I would totally let it settle in court because PTV has all the legal cards here. The drive is 14 months old, and if anything, is worth only the depreciated value of a 14 month old hard drive.

I agree with PTV to cease conversing with this customer. Save all the emails, print them out, and go to court if sued. PTV will win in small claims, hands down--PTV has absolutely no liability over a product they sold more than a year ago that is out of vendor (not manufacturer) warranty. The customer has absolutely no case--even the restocking fee is clearly laid out on the website. The customer should have contacted PTV *before* she made the purchase if there was any question about extending any warranty--its her own fault.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I've been ignoring this thread because I need not beware of PTVUpgrade. I know this company is good. I finally looked into it and sure enough, as we've seen before, the complaining is over the top.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

In reading the original email my thought was, certainly PTVUpgrades doesn't offer more than a 1 year warranty.

I'm not sure why people get mad that something breaks after the warranty is over. Certainly we EXPECT things we buy to last longer than the warranty, I expect to get more than 3 years out of my car, 1 year out of an appliance, 1 year out of my house, etc. But that is what the warranty is FOR. To tell you how long the company will stand behind the product you are buying. If a one year warranty is unacceptable, you should'nt ahve bought it in the first place.

Bottom line- OUT OF WARRANTY, and the STILL offered you fifty bucks off! Pretty good deal. They are under NO OBLIGATION to offer you ANYTHING.

I agree that it SHOULD'VE lasted more than a year, but it didn't. Could've been bad power, bumped around, or it could've just BROKE prematurely. Not their fault, they didn't manufacture it, and even if they had, stuff sometimes breaks! That's why theres a warranty.


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## JacksTiVo (Jan 7, 2006)

I have never had an opportunity to do business with PTVupgrade. Based on the OP's description of the events leading up to their initiating this thread and my reading of the actual email correspondence posted by owner Lou, my opinion is that the OP is just another one of those consumers who try to play the system.

You know the ones to which I am referring. They purchase a tool at Home Depot for a project, complete the project then return the tool for a refund. This results in the merchant and manufacturer losing money, which eventually gets passed on to us honest consumers.

Or how about the one who orders a 80 hour TiVo, replaces the hard drive with a 40 hour one from his TiVo and then returns it within the trial useage period. There was a recent thread on the TC Help Center threads about this type of issue. The person who eventually got the returned & then refurbished TiVo (that is, the 80 hour unit with a 40 hour hard drive) had a hell of a time getting it replaced. The TiVoOpsmgr finally resolve the problem that was caused by a dishonest customer.

Or this OP who thinks the PTVupgrade customer service folks are "stupid" and wouldn't know that 5 Season Passes is no different than no season passes or 100 season passes on the wear & tear on a hard drive installed on a TiVo that is operating 8760 hours per year.
Turns out that PTVupgrade customer service is the owner who is very knowledgeable about TiVo.

Lou took the appropriate course of action with this customer. Perhaps some day I will have the opportunity to do business with them. I am impressed how other TiVo community members are always recommending them for replacement parts and repairs.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

The OP's history of complaining (and not understanding much about how TiVos actually work) prior to starting this thread speaks for itself. 

I work in retail. Some people insist on causing everyone three times as much work as needs to be done for any transaction, many times by insisting things be done their way, rather than following the procedures and policies set out by the vendor. 

I have lost count of the number of times a customer has asked a question expecting a particular answer, and flat out refuses to hear any answer that isn't the desired one. 

If you are a 'solve this my way or else' kind of customer, if you have no understanding of industry practice or how business is done, if you are too proud to be polite and say "I'm sorry if this causes you extra work, I really appreciate that you are trying to help", then you are always going to be dissatisfied.

Treat vendors with courtesy. Ask them: "I have this problem, what can you do for me?" Let them offer you the possible solutions, and THEN choose the one which is best for you. And if they offer you something that is outside their standard policy, acknowledge that they offered to do you a favor, even when it doesn't satisfy you and you choose not to accept it. Remember that the vendor at the other end is a human being just like you and you'll have better results.

Jan


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

It's also interesting how things like this can escalate out of control via email. I try to practice the following---never say anything in an email that I wouldn't say to the face of the recepient. A decent practice, I think.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

susanandmark said:


> Unfortunately, my last transaction didn't go as smoothly and I found the company extremely difficult to deal with.


Sorry your last transaction didn't do smoothly, but it seems like you are the one that's difficult to deal with, given the emails posted by ptvupgrade.

At minimum, you are unreasonable.

I'd have to side with Lou on this one. Perhaps one of his emails went a little far, but he was probably a little stunned at how unreasonable your expectations were.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Add another vote to Lou's side in this debate. 

You purchased a product over a year ago with full knowledge that it has a one-year warranty. Product develops a problem after being in use for fourteen months. You purchase new product to replace old product, knowing seller's return policies. You then decide that you want some kind of credit for the out-of-warranty product. Lou offers a $50 discount on a product you've already said you were considering purchasing, purely as a sign of good will. Because this was not the answer you were looking for, you decide to return the product, then expect a break on restocking charges, though you knew the return policies when you purchased the product.

Sounds like Lou gave good customer service to me. I wouldn't hesitate to use him if I ever need his services. :up:


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

[Sexist Pig]

I think Mark should take away Susan's email and posting privlages.

[/Sexist Pig]


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I liked the one where her sister in law had to return the Tivo because it was too complicated to use and the instructions were to hard to read.

http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=215696


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I have never purchased hardware from PTV, but when I have needed software for various upgrades and repairs, I have never had a problem with them. 

People need to read a company's return/shipping/warranty policies before doing business with that company, not after. As someone said earlier, this is a hobbyist supplier, not a retail store. You need to know what you are doing. Research goes a long way in endeavors such as this.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> [Sexist Pig]
> 
> I think Mark should take away Susan's email and posting privlages.
> 
> [/Sexist Pig]


I made the same post and then deleted it before posting. Thanks for having the stones that I did not TB.


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## MMG (Dec 11, 1999)

Turtleboy said:


> [Sexist Pig]
> 
> I think Mark should take away Susan's email and posting privlages.
> 
> [/Sexist Pig]


Bwahahahaha!

Is this a dual accout like debtoine's? Does Mark ever post? I'd like to hear what he has to say.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> [Sexist Pig]
> 
> I think Mark should take away Susan's email and posting privlages.
> 
> [/Sexist Pig]


I'd have to agree with TB on this one. Two words come to mind "High Maintenance"! 

Y-ASK


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

You have to wonder about someone who starts a post with the phrase "we own way too many TiVos".

There is no such thing as "owning too many TiVos".



Jan


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

tivoupgrade said:


> Thx for the good words. One correction, however: We do not sell OEM hard drives, other than the ones that come with some units (like the HR10-250), so the manufacturer warranties offered direct to the end user are still available to the end-user, regardless of whether we supply the hard drives, or not.


Actually, the definition that many people in the computer field use for describing an OEM hard drive is any NON-RETAIL (packaged) hard drive NOT bought from a retailer (Best Buy, Staples, Costco, etc). In other words, if I go to ZipZoomFly.com, NewEgg.com, or Ingram Micro and purchase a BARE drive, then that is an OEM drive and that is the classification that most hard drive manufacturers use when describing an OEM drive (in fact many BARE Drives can have different model numbers), when compared to a retail hard drive. And most hard drive manufacturers do make an adjustment to the warranty period of OEM hard drives.

It really doesn't make big difference in the quality of the hard drives, because currently I have retail and OEM (mostly OEM) hard drives in my machines and those hard drive vary in age from less than one year to over seven years in age and almost all of them run 24/7, and my only large number of failures, three drives out of four, were caused by the IBM pixie dust problem, the fourth was a Maxtor 160GB that failed in about 9 months of use (an it was not powered on 24/7) about two years ago.

I am quite sure that you (PTVUpgrade.com) do not buy your drives off the shelf from Best Buy, Staples, Costco, or some other major retailer, but purchase them from a distributor like Ingram Micro and you likely buy BARE drives. And there is NOTING wrong with purchasing BARE drives from a distributor, there is no real difference in quality based upon my experience (34 years in IT and 23 years working on Personal Computers). The biggest difference is in how the hard drives are handled by the distributor and the shippers. But in the case where the drive is handled by a NON-TECHNICAL person (retail customer), then all bets are off. If a customer handled a hard drive and causes a static discharge to the IC area on the bottom of the hard drive, then failure of the hard drive could come at any time.

Most companies like PTVUpgrade.com know how to handle the hard drives and use grounding straps and know that they shouldn't touch the IC area, but some consumers have no idea that they shouldn't touch the IC area and don't own grounding straps and handle hard drives like floppy disks.

Actually, I would hate to be in the business that PTVUpgrade.com is in, selling BARE hard drives to NON-TECHNICIAL capable consumers, what a nightmare.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

tbeckner said:


> I am quite sure that you (PTVUpgrade.com) do not buy your drives off the shelf from Best Buy, Staples, Costco, or some other major retailer, but purchase them from a distributor like Ingram Micro and you likely buy BARE drives. And there is NOTING wrong with purchasing BARE drives from a distributor, there is no real difference in quality based upon my experience (34 years in IT and 23 years working on Personal Computers). The biggest difference is in how the hard drives are handled by the distributor and the shippers. But in the case where the drive is handled by a NON-TECHNICAL person (retail customer), then all bets are off. If a customer handled a hard drive and causes a static discharge to the IC area on the bottom of the hard drive, then failure of the hard drive could come at any time.


I understand where you are coming from. Yes, we do buy "bare" drives - they are provided by an authorized distributor and they come in sealed boxes of 20 prepared by the manufacturer.

I have a different definition of OEM in that OEM drives are those that are provided to OEM's -- like Dell, Compaq, or in the case of the example I used, the manufactuer of say, the HR10-250, or any TiVo for that matter. In cases like that, the drives often do have slightly different model numbers (although not always) and often in cases like that, there is no warranty of the component to the consumer. Example: If a brand new HR10-250 fails because of a faulty Western Digital drive, I cannot get it replaced under warranty from Western Digital because it is an OEM drive.

In any case, the distinction I wanted to make is that the drives we use are sold and warranted with a full manufacturer's warranty that is transferable to the end-user; not PTVupgrade as an OEM, in the traditional sense.

As for your years in IT, I cannot compare - you must have been a minicomputer/mainframe guy at some point -- I built my first PC 23 years ago (1983), too and I was still in high-school. I am sure we can compare some good war stories as I went on to do 'big iron' stuff after college.

In any case, thanks all for your support, it is much appreciated.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> 1) the customer isn't always right (that doesn't mean the customer is always wrong)


That is the only thing I disagree with you. You were right, she was wrong and you proved your point. But look at the bottom line:
1. You lost the sale and the customer.
2. You spent more time on arguing your point with the customer and posting here than it would take you to prep 10 hard drives.
3. At the end of of the day you made $25.35 (if she doesn't protest charges with credit card company)
If I was in your shoes, I would tell her that she is right and although drive is out of warranty, I would take it back, exchange it with manufacturer and format it for TiVo for nominal fee plus shipping. This way I would keep the customer and the profit made on sale of $169 hard drive. Since software cost you nothing and drive is under warranty that would be most profitable to you as well as most trouble free. I had a client like that ones. She got ticked off that appraiser didn't appraise her house for as much as she was sure it was worth and wanted her appraisal fee back. I could prove to her that she was wrong, it didn't make any difference for her refinance terms and she signed the disclosure that appraisal fees are not refundable. Instead I told her that she was right, appraiser made a mistake but to keep closing on time I will use it anyhow and will refund her $350. So I made $350 less, but in the next 2 years I did 3 mortgages for her and she referred at least half a dozen co-workers to me. I made over $30,000 extra profit by keeping client from hell happy. I am a believer that client is always right and is my most precious asset and that it always cost more to procure new client than to keep old client happy.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

samo said:


> That is the only thing I disagree with you. You were right, she was wrong and you proved your point. But look at the bottom line:
> 1. You lost the sale and the customer.
> 2. You spent more time on arguing your point with the customer and posting here than it would take you to prep 10 hard drives.
> 3. At the end of of the day you made $25.35 (if she doesn't protest charges with credit card company)
> If I was in your shoes, I would tell her that she is right and although drive is out of warranty, I would take it back, exchange it with manufacturer and format it for TiVo for nominal fee plus shipping. This way I would keep the customer and the profit made on sale of $169 hard drive. Since software cost you nothing and drive is under warranty that would be most profitable to you as well as most trouble free. I had a client like that ones. She got ticked off that appraiser didn't appraise her house for as much as she was sure it was worth and wanted her appraisal fee back. I could prove to her that she was wrong, it didn't make any difference for her refinance terms and she signed the disclosure that appraisal fees are not refundable. Instead I told her that she was right, appraiser made a mistake but to keep closing on time I will use it anyhow and will refund her $350. So I made $350 less, but in the next 2 years I did 3 mortgages for her and she referred at least half a dozen co-workers to me. I made over $30,000 extra profit by keeping client from hell happy. I am a believer that client is always right and is my most precious asset and that it always cost more to procure new client than to keep old client happy.


I don't think you've disagreeed with my initial statement (in fact, you've agreed with it). The disagreement lies in what to do in that situation. I can assure you that every situation is different, and its not about proving anything.

It is debatable as to whether she would have purchased anything again, or whether the opportunity cost of catering to her special needs would compromise our ability to focus on other customers.

I do understand what you are saying, but there is no definite right answer here; sometimes the 'client from hell' ends up being just that, and its your judgement that matters most.

I do have to disagree with you on two points:

Point #2 is incorrect.

Point #3 is also incorrect. She should feel free to dispute the charges if she feels she is right. That does not mean our return policy won't be upheld.

Lastly, its not just about money. Running a business that is not publicly held has a LOT to do with a certain quality of life. When working for Fortune 500 companies, I was compelled to work with the "customer from hell." Now I am not, and I sleep much better at night. And with all that said, I beleive in this situation, the right decision was made on all fronts. We can certainly disagree as we may have different styles there, its really just a matter of choice.


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## Netbudda (Mar 3, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> Lastly, its not just about money. Running a business that is not publicly held has a LOT to do with a certain quality of life. When working for Fortune 500 companies, I was compelled to work with the "customer from hell." Now I am not, and I sleep much better at night. And with all that said, I beleive in this situation, the right decision was made on all fronts. We can certainly disagree as we may have different styles there, its really just a matter of choice.


+ 1,000,000

I love when a business stands to a "bad customer" and says to him..."YOU ARE FIRED !!!!" Hats off to you. :up:


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

samo said:


> I made over $30,000 extra profit by keeping client from hell happy. I am a believer that client is always right and is my most precious asset and that it always cost more to procure new client than to keep old client happy.


I take your point but some of the clients from hell cannot be made happy, because they seize on a solution for their problem which is not possible, and won't accept any other.

Jan


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## audiocrawford (Oct 19, 2005)

mick66 said:


> I only have more respect for ptvupgrade now because they wouldn't kiss your ignorant butt.


Any respect I may have gained was totally lost when ptvupgrade posted all the emails from the customer above.

This was a minor incident, and I can't believe anyone would be so unprofessional as to go to such lengths and violate the customers privacy by posting emails to the Internet.

Forwarding, or, much worse, posting for the world to see, emails between two parties is about as classless as one can be on the Internet.

A customer complained, and this thread would have drifted away. Now they've just lost a potential customer in me, as I'm actually ready to make a purchase to upgrade the drive in my new DT (80-hour is pittiful with two tuners!). The OP wouldn't have stopped me from buying, but the replies sure have. I had narrowed it down to two vendors; my choice has been made for me.

While the OP may have been in the wrong, I don't need to repeat the "two wrongs" proverb for anyone, do I? I only deal with professional companies, and I'm terribly glad I've seen this thread so I know where not to shop.

But I guess that doesn't matter...all customers aren't created equal, right?

AC


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

audiocrawford said:


> Any respect I may have gained was totally lost when ptvupgrade posted all the emails from the customer above.
> 
> This was a minor incident, and I can't believe anyone would be so unprofessional as to go to such lengths and violate the customers privacy by posting emails to the Internet.


Well some of that might be my fault. I wanted proof from the OP what had really transpired but I don't think I was clear enough that it was the OP that needed to post proof. After all she's the one who came to the forum and started all the Hub-Bub.

And please AC get off your High Horse before someone mistakes you as the tail end of said horse. Your post disgusted me more than the OPs. In fact your post has totally changed my mind. I'm pretty good with a computer and was going to replace a couple of hard drives my self that I had already upgraded but are about to fail. Instead of paying $130 for two 120 GB HDA's and doing it myself I'm going to purchase a kit from PTV to make up for your BS.

Just remember susanandmark drew 1st blood in this affair by coming to a public forum and trashing a well respected company's reputation with their own agenda.

Y-ASK


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

audiocrawford said:


> This was a minor incident, and I can't believe anyone would be so unprofessional as to go to such lengths and violate the customers privacy by posting emails to the Internet.


Actually, we never violated anyone's privacy; the customer name and email were completely removed from what was posted.

Sorry, you disagree with my decision to do that, however I chose to do so because the OP misrepresented what happened in an attempt to interfere with my business. I think the details of the original conversation clarified the situation and prevented this thread from getting more 'out of hand' than it already was.

You should also know that in addition to 'vendor bashing' being against forum rules, the initial post could be considered illegal. If you are interested in that sort of thing, you can read more about that here.

In any case, I indicated earlier that I would rather clear up any misconceptions rather than 'cry foul' and thwart what could potentially result in a constructive conversation.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Let's not attack each other over this.

SusanandMark have a long history of complaining about customer service on this forum. Search and read her posts.

As for Lou, posting part of the email conversations wasn't very cool, but a small businessman tends to want to protect his reputation when it comes to a huge forum like this. Those emails didn't make him look like an angel either, so at least he was fair, and he didn't post them all, he stopped once he proved he offered to make his customer happy.

PTVupgrade has a good history of making customers happy. Search for comments about this company.

Once you search the history of both of these people on this forum, then you can make your own mind up. 



Then, make your own decision.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

tivoupgrade said:


> Actually, we never violated anyone's privacy; the customer name and email were completely removed from what was posted...


And it isn't like the customer was all that concerned about keeping private the matter being discussed.

If one party brings info up in public, seems to me they've just authorized the other side to do the same...especially if what's said at first gives a wrong impression about what really happened. The other party sure has the right to make facts known and speak in their own defense.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

justapixel said:


> SusanandMark have a long history of complaining about customer service on this forum. Search and read her posts.
> 
> As for Lou, posting part of the email conversations wasn't very cool, but a small businessman tends to want to protect his reputation when it comes to a huge forum like this. Those emails didn't make him look like an angel either, so at least he was fair


This was a very reasoned and balanced post. And a concise analysis of the thread. Good work.


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## audiocrawford (Oct 19, 2005)

tivoupgrade said:


> Actually, we never violated anyone's privacy; the customer name and email were completely removed from what was posted.
> 
> Sorry, you disagree with my decision to do that, however I chose to do so because the OP misrepresented what happened in an attempt to interfere with my business. I think the details of the original conversation clarified the situation and prevented this thread from getting more 'out of hand' than it already was.
> 
> ...


You can justify this any way you wish, paint yourself the victim, give useless wikipedia links, whatever. It doesn't change the fact that you posted private emails between a customer and your organization, which is unexcusably unproffesional.

That's not an attack - that's a simple fact.

If the person broke forum rules as you say, then like any forum member you should have reported them to the admins to take care of that. It is no excuse, and it's desperate to try to use that to excuse your behavior.

Also desperate is calling what they did "illegal"; again, if this was the case, contact your legal counsel. Using these things to justify your behavior is just...astounding. There is an appropriate response, then there is what you have done here. It's like a little kid saying, "but he called me a bad name first!" and it's not how a proffesional conducts themself.

You miss the entire point that it's simply unprofessional to act in such a manner. If you absolutely felt you must reply, then your initial posting should have been enough. The OP didn't return to challenge you, yet you have spent how long replying to every person in this thread and convince them you were correct? There was (and is) no need for you to continue, yet here you go.

This is the internet. Develop a thicker skin. Have confidence in your product and customer base. If I had just read the OP and then the replies that weren't from you, I would have easily realized the OP was just a complainer and seen that others have had good experiences; but since you so strenously objected and have made so many posts about it and made the ultimate act of unprofessionalism by posting private emails between a customer and yourself, you've lost another customer.

It is apparent that you, and a few other posters, don't understand the client-->business relationship. I have no doubt the OP was acting spoiled and didn't deserve any breaks, but again, two wrongs don't make a right. Posting emails and going on like that is so many levels of unprofessional that if one can't see it, it's beyond the scope of this message board to try to correct such a lack of understanding.

AC


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## TheRob (Nov 21, 2003)

cant we all just get along


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

TheRob said:


> cant we all just get along


Are you kidding?

As I said before, I wouldn't want to be in the business of having a NON-TECHNICAL customer installing a hard drive; just a small static discharge to the IC area on the bottom of the drive could at the very least weaken the drive electronics and cause the drive to fail prematurely.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Susan is probably laughing at all the massive noise to signal she stirred up here. Why keep on and just feed her original purpose


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

justapixel said:


> SusanandMark have a long history of complaining about customer service on this forum. Search and read her posts.


And that just proves my philosophy that "client is always right". Her complaints (at least most of them) have been addressed by TiVo employees participating on this forum and resolved to her satisfaction. Net result at the end of the day? She has 7 TiVos! Any business can deal with reasonable and happy clients, but if you can satisfy chronic complainers - they become clients for life. The best part is they refer others to you and since their friends know how picky they are, their friends feel very comfortable to do business with you.


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## JasonD (Mar 30, 2003)

Ihave to say I've been happy for the most part with PTV upgrade the instant cake is a very good product.

The owner has his way to run the company. 

jason


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

audiocrawford said:


> You miss the entire point that it's simply unprofessional to act in such a manner.


Nobody missed your entire point. It was plain for everyone to see. What point you missed is that it's unprofessional to continue to post your opinion over and over again in hopes to some how sway those who are following this thread into thinking that you had any point at all to begin with.

Sorry Justapixel but I really hate it when so called professional people try to tell everyone else how to behave or what to do. And before anyone buys into AC's bunch of crap, please remember that Lou is not running Dell Computers or IBM. It's a very small biz in which this forum plays a hugh part of. If you just turn a blind eye to the accusations made on this forum and act "professional" (as if AC knows what professional is) you'd risk the entire company and the lively hood of all it's employees.

Y-ASK


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

JasonD said:


> Ihave to say I've been happy for the most part with PTV upgrade the instant cake is a very good product.
> 
> The owner has his way to run the company.
> 
> jason


Yes, he does. And I also don't doubt the product is high-quality. But personally I agree with samo. The customer is always right. Even when they're wrong, you tell them they're right and keep their business.


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## audiocrawford (Oct 19, 2005)

Y-ASK said:


> Nobody missed your entire point. It was plain for everyone to see. What point you missed is that it's unprofessional to continue to post your opinion over and over again in hopes to some how sway those who are following this thread into thinking that you had any point at all to begin with.


#1. I made a single post, and then it was replied to with silliness ("the OP was violating forum rules" as an excuse), so I replied back. I guess I missed where I've posted "over and over again". I'm not hoping to sway anyone, I simply was replying to someone who replied to me (just as I am now).

#2. I am not running a business here. I am under no obligation to be "professional". This is a message board where I am a member and participating in a discussion. When someone who does run a business is posting, and in their capacity as owner of that business, they DO have a different obligation.

Any more questions?

The irony is that what you accuse me of is exactly what I feel was done wrong in this thread by PTVUpgrade. He replied to every person, over and over, and the OP never even came back. Really, can you not see the irony in you statement?

AC


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

audiocrawford said:


> Any more questions?


Nope! I think your lectures have just about covered it. 

Y-ASK


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## MMG (Dec 11, 1999)

Re: email privacy and federal law:



> On the federal level, the Wiretap Act [18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2522 (1994], as amended by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 (ECPA) [Pub. L.No. 99-508,100 Stat. 1848 (1986)], prohibits the interception, recording and disclosure of "any wire, oral, or electronic communication" unless one of the parties to the communication, implicitly or explicitly, consents. The Stored Communications Act [10 U.S.C. § 2702(b)(3) (1994)] similarly requires consent of either the sender or the receiver of e-mail messages before a stored message may be accessed.


It seems that since tivoupgrade was defending his business practices and because he was one of the parties in the communication, he was within his full rights to publish these emails. If the sending party did not want them published, she should not have sent them. It would be foolish of any writers of email to believe that their email is eternally private.

I guess a greater question would be regardless of whether publishing email is legal, is it ethical? (i.e., as determined by society, is it subjectively right or wrong? )As a previous poster already stated,



> If one party brings info up in public, seems to me they've just authorized the other side to do the same...especially if what's said at first gives a wrong impression about what really happened. The other party sure has the right to make facts known and speak in their own defense.


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

OK, WITHOUT TAKING SIDES, here are some of my observations (for what they're worth). 

1. The OP feels that Lou has treated them wrong, but apart from the original post, has allowed the discussion to go to over 50 posts (almost all disagreeing with them!) without an additional response. 

2. Lou appears to have made a good move to resolve the situation, which the OP decided to take issue with instead of seeking a resolution. 

3. Whether Lou was right or wrong ethically is beside the point. There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a private email. IMHO, as long as nothing is quoted out of context and no personal info is given, I see nothing wrong in quoting an email to prove (or disprove) a point. 

4. It appears that the 15% restocking fee is acceptable as the OP was the one that requested the return of the new equipment, not the supplier. 

5. It is unreasonable to expect ANYONE to honor a refund/return after the stated warranty period. We may not agree that the period is long enough, but it IS stated when the order is placed. To expect or demand action after 14-15 months on a product that is only warranted for six is just wrong. As has been stated, we're dealing with electronics here and they can last for years or die very quickly. In my personal experience (as a computer journalist, systems operator and tech), drives usually either die within a few weeks or go on for years. It is rare, but not impossible for a drive to die after this period of time. 

6. This situation has been enhanced by the "non-communication" of email. By this I mean the inability to place emotions or emphasis on what is written. I see it all the time in the printed word. A seemingly innoccuous comment is blown out of all proportion because someone read it the wrong way! The whole thing could probably have been resolved with a deep breath (on both sides) and a phone call. 


In order to resolve this, I suggest Susanandmark call Lou and see what can be done or just accept they made a mistake and move on. Posting in a forum where so many people have had good experiences with a company is not going to garner too much sympathy. If this was a common occurrence, then in 50+ posts, more would have chimed in with "I had a similar experience" or "I know what you mean" type posts.

It seems the OP is either embarassed that everyone thinks they're wrong, mad that no-one agrees or, least likely, realize their error.

I have had no personal dealings with PTVUpgrade, so I am unable to take sides. These are intended as impartial observations. Just my $0.02.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

MMG said:


> I guess a greater question would be regardless of whether publishing email is legal, is it ethical?


Absolutely.

Lou protected the customer's privacy and almost certainly would not have posted the excerpts had the OP not brought up the issue.

And to the poster that said most of us don't understand the business/customer relationship - rubbish. Perhaps Lou should've "bit his lip", but "the customer is always right" is not a mantra. Sucessful business live by a modified version of that old saying "a REASONABLE customer is always right" and the OP was so far from reasonable it isn't funny.

(Not sure why people are bringing up the email question anyway - nothing illegal about it or unethical either.)


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

audiocrawford said:


> You can justify this any way you wish, paint yourself the victim, give useless wikipedia links, whatever. It doesn't change the fact that you posted private emails between a customer and your organization, which is unexcusably unproffesional.
> 
> That's not an attack - that's a simple fact.


AC,

Its clear to me that you have a very narrow view of things; that is my opinion and it is also my observation that what you claim to be "facts" are really just opinions, as well.

I've just added you to my ignore list; there is a difference between disagreeing with someone vs trivializing and insulting them because you disagree. As a member of this community, I am entitled to the same "rights" as everyone else, whether you think so, or not.


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## Lori (Feb 20, 2000)

Lou, just wanted to add my voice to the "you rock" chorus. I've bought 3 or 4 upgrades from you, including my precious 200-hour R-10. One drive failed in warranty, and it was replaced quicker and more courteously than I could have hoped. The others are all chugging along.

Never buying drives (or modded TiVos) from anyone else.


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## TiVore (Nov 24, 2004)

It blows my mind that the OP contended that her hard drive had been "lightly used" because it had "a grand total of 8 seasons passes" on it.

*Um, that's like saying your washing machine has been "lightly used" because you did all the loads on the "medium load" setting. * 

In view of the circumstances I think PTVUpgrade made more than a generous offer. The seller is under no obligation to warranty an item forever or extend an indefinite return period.

I don't care how much the OP blathers, PTVU did nothing wrong. And so what if Lou posted the email exchanges? He didn't identify this woman. She gave away more about himself than he ever did - she identified herself on the TiVo forums presumably as "Susan". It's not like he posted her name, address, and email address, or phone number. She came here wanting to degrade PTVU. Look at the title of the thread. She drew first blood. If you don't want a debate, don't start one.

Some people are just unreasonable agitators. I see one or two every single time I walk into any retail store. Most of the time, I just look at the clerk and shake my head, laugh, or roll my eyes.


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## Sepia (Jan 5, 2002)

I will now make it a point to buy stuff from Lou. This woman is a nightmare to deal with (from the rantings I've read in her previous posts as well as this one).

Good for you Lou, I am glad you did not give in to the likes of this customer. If you did give in, all it would have done is solidify her attitude as the right one.

To the OP. You seem to be rather technically challenged, so let me try and explain what Lou tried to explain to you as well.

The drive in your TiVo is *constantly* recording, whether you told it to or not. That's how you are able to "pause" live tv, rewind what you missed (up to 30 minutes) etc... It's because it is constantly recording whatever channel it is tuned to. That means that for 14 months, you hard drive in the TiVo has been writing constantly with not a single break. To call that "light use" is at best disingenuous. Besides, "light-use" has absolutely *no barring* on warranty, as a grown woman, you should know that by now!.

Seeing how you offered her a $50 credit, I will from now on take my business to you Lou. Most companies out there would simply have said I'm out of warranty, sorry. You actually offered to help out, and she threw it back in your face.

- Sepia


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## Snowman (Oct 27, 2004)

Y'all sure are some hogpilers. Geez. Okay, those pesky customers that expect good customer service are quite logically going to be the ones who complain. It's the drones out there that accept long lines and rude (if you can find one) floor associates who ruin the customer experience for the rest of us.

Anyway, Lou wins on POLICY. Great, congratulations on the win -- you can't spend it. As for the OP, I'm quite sure that any business owner who banks on "future sales" because the customer said so... well, will go out of business. You can't spend a future sale either. You've bought a few hard drive upgrades, but say you're looking at spending $1500 on a different system. Having no idea what the markup is, but knowing electronics aren't known for their high markup, it's not like you offering to give Lou $1500. I'd bet if he made $100 off that sale he'd be a happy man. 

IMHO, here's how it should happen. 
Customer should:
1. pay both sides of shipping for the replacement drive
2. pay the 15% restocking fee (it's their policy).
3. Ship back the failed drive at your expense, paying shipping both directions.

Company should:
1. Rethink that $75 charge.. sheesh! $25 sounds way more reasonable. 

Why even $25? Well Lou still has to pay shipping back to the mfg and possibly return shipping back to him as well. They still have to do some work to make the drive ready to "drop in". However, it's my assertion that the profit was made on the front end (hard drive upgrade) and that they choose the hard drive brand and should stand behind "getting it back to working condition". NOTE: If it were from a computer, the computer MFG/sales agent wouldn't reload the OS, but you'd have the disk to do it yourself. Since you aren't an "instantcake" cd purchaser, it's obvious that you choose to pay someone to do that work so you don't have to. Maybe even $50 is "reasonable", but trying to profit off a drive failure still under mfg warranty from an otherwise "good" customer is a bit much, IMHO. 

No matter what happens, the customer has screwed up pretty badly. First, there's 4 directions of shipping of the drive she has to pay, plus a 15% (of $169 I believe) restocking fee... she brought every bit of that on herself. As a business owner, given the circumstances, I'd probably waive the 15% restocking fee since it's not like the person bought a drive just to copy the image and send it back. The user is going to be without a hard drive (and thus a Tivo) for a couple of weeks or more ... isn't that punishment enough without everyone hogpiling on her?


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Snowman said:


> The user is going to be without a hard drive (and thus a Tivo) for a couple of weeks or more ... isn't that punishment enough without everyone hogpiling on her?


Ah, but this is the 'lightly used' TiVo that only has 8 Season Passes on it, in a household that has "too many TiVos". 

So I can't cry very hard over the fact that she'll be missing one for a couple of weeks. YMMV.

Jan


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## lordrichter (Jan 11, 2003)

Actually, I think that the PTVupgrade people (aka "tivoupgrade", aka "Lou") should have just posted the rebuttal and shut up about it. Having them actively engage posters in the forum here is probably losing them customers. While interesting reading, posting the original email notes was not necessary. The most recent post in this thread by tivoupgrade was particularly unprofessional. 

I think less of PTVupgrade after reading this thread, but I can't say that they would lose my business over this. I am already a customer of the competition, so I never had any intention of doing business with them.


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## treyj (May 13, 2002)

Perhaps people have had good experiences with Lou because they have not been in a confrontational situation with him. I too had an unpleasant conversation with him, and like the OP, was shocked at how quickly he became unprofessional and argumentative. To me, the measure of professionalism is how someone acts in that environment, not when things are "easy". In this thread's dialog, Lou is exemplifying how he puts his need to be "right" over the customer. I know he loses business with that attitude, but I'm sure he would say that he doesn't care about losing business with those kinds of customers. I prefer to do business with someone who, during a disagreement, makes an effort to understand and communicate rather than become defensive and dismiss me. It is not always easy to express your concerns with words, so if Lou could take the time to understand what customers are really saying and patiently explain things more thoroughly, he would not alienate as many customers, and debates like these would not even occur. Companies with small margins need repeat and referred business, which will only occur consistently with efforts like those.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

treyj said:


> Perhaps people have had good experiences with Lou because they have not been in a confrontational situation with him. I too had an unpleasant conversation with him, and like the OP, was shocked at how quickly he became unprofessional and argumentative. To me, the measure of professionalism is how someone acts in that environment, not when things are "easy". In this thread's dialog, Lou is exemplifying how he puts his need to be "right" over the customer. I know he loses business with that attitude, but I'm sure he would say that he doesn't care about losing business with those kinds of customers. I prefer to do business with someone who, during a disagreement, makes an effort to understand and communicate rather than become defensive and dismiss me. It is not always easy to express your concerns with words, so if Lou could take the time to understand what customers are really saying and patiently explain things more thoroughly, he would not alienate as many customers, and debates like these would not even occur. Companies with small margins need repeat and referred business, which will only occur consistently with efforts like those.


Trey -

I think you may have missed the point. It was NOT about being right. In fact, I pointed that out very early in the discussion. It was about choosing to deal with an unreasonable customer who was not happy with the discount we offered. And it was also about not allowing that customer to tarnish a good reputation with accusations which were not true.

In fact, if you take a look at the details of the initial dialog I had with the customer, even when she became unreasonable, I did make an attempt to get to the bottom of things, as you suggested I should. Not sure that I became unreasonable, shocking or otherwise, anywhere in what I posted - I simply told her something she didn't want to hear, and she went off.

With that said, I'd like to ask you how could any confrontational scenario result in being 'pleasant' for anyone. Unless of course, we just gave everyone what they wanted, no matter how unreasonable they became...

What was the nature of our discussion with you? Did you ask for something beyond what we normally offer? Did we become confrontational in our initial response, or did you become confrontational after we repeatedly did not tell you what you wanted to hear? I am not trying to slam you here, just trying to establish exaactly what you meant by that statement? I genuinely would like to know and I am happy to discuss it here in the coffee house. I genuinely do not look for fights.

Would you recommend that once we've told somebody what they don't want to hear (or after an autoresponse has been sent that outlines our policies) we simply ignore subsequent responses? Do think ignoring the confrontational emails results in a customer being any less frustrated or less interested in creating a post like this?

I am not attempting to be antagonistic in my response to you, but trying to frame my inquiries in a way that might highlight the fact that respect and behavior travel on a two way street. Vendors are not punching bags to be vented upon, or threatened, or held hostage to public scrutiny on a whim, and being firm or showing resolve when it comes to a simple business decision, does not constitute abuse.

If you consider a response like this to be "unprofessional" or any of the other responses in this thread to be that way, I'd ask you to back and re-read what we've written. I've not treated anyone with any less respect than they've treated me. Again, its a dialog and it really doesn't have anything to with being professional, it has to do with respect.


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

Ya know, reading this thread has really reminded me of how happy I am to be out of the retail/customer service world. There are just some customers that aren't worth dealing with, period. It was a pain trying to do so.

While I think Lou's responses may have gone 'cold' faster than I might approve of, I do not think he was wrong in drawing the line where he did, and I do think that the OP was one of those customers who only hears what they want and won't accept anything less. Back in my tech support days, I had customers call expecting us to ship a brand new pc to them because the HDD wasn't recognized, when 99% of the time, a 5 minute job of cracking the case and reseating the cable fixed the problem. They didn't want to hear that though. Computer was broken and their mind was made up, so we shouldn't bother trying to confuse them with facts.

For my end, my level of help and/or offers of replacements were usually driven by the customer's first 90 seconds on the phone. If they called screaming the second I answered, they were very likely to get nothing out of it. On the other hand, if they were nice, and just looking for help, and willing to listen to what I had to say, I'd go the extra mile for them every time. Ahh, trip down memory lane forthcoming.

Ok, for anyone who might need a chuckle, link follows. This was a call I recorded at work many moons ago (like about 7 years). I'm not the voice on the phone for this one, but was actually supervising the call and recording it for call coaching purposes. If you've ever been in tech support, odds are you've heard this already. There's a much longer version, but the trimmed down one is what floats around the net.

Basically, the guy called complaining his mouse wasn't working. After listening to the initial stuff, it was quite obvious that it was just a little dusty and needed a quick cleanout under the ball. A 30 second operation. The tech starts to tell him this and before he finished the sentence, the guy immediately starts screaming for us to just send him a new mouse. After a few minutes, the tech decided to escalate the call and my buddy volunteered to take it (I was still filling out the call coaching form). As soon as he picked up the guy started screaming demanding a new mouse, and refusing to troubleshoot or clean it. No matter what we tried, he wouldn't listen, and just kept getting worse. Enough blab, this is what you call an unreasonable customer.

http://www.techcomedy.com/calls/mouse.mp3

After many years in support and many more years of retail before that, I tend to stick up for the guy behind the counter these days. And if I have to complain about something, I'll do it as nicely as possible. First off, I realize that the person I'm talking to is a person too, and most likely is not directly responsible for my problem. Second, I subscribe to the "you catch more flies with honey" theory these days. It will take quite a bit before I become irate with a complaint.

And before whoever it was back there decides to reply that I'm a horrible, unprofessional person for posting a link to a recorded call, I'll point out that I did not release the recording to the net (still not sure how it got out actually) nor is any personal information provided. I'm merely posting a link to a sound file on a site and providing some background info on what's entailed in it. So save your cyber-breath.


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## MMG (Dec 11, 1999)

Moebius said:


> .... this is what you call an unreasonable customer.
> 
> http://www.techcomedy.com/calls/mouse.mp3....


Who raised this moron? He's an adult having a temper tantrum... "The customer is always right" at the end is priceless. This customer needs to be comitted.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tivoupgrade said:


> In fact, if you take a look at the details of the initial dialog I had with the customer, even when she became unreasonable, I did make an attempt to get to the bottom of things, as you suggested I should. Not sure that I became unreasonable, shocking or otherwise, anywhere in what I posted - I simply told her something she didn't want to hear, and she went off.


the thing is I for one agree with the remedy you offered, especially considering the fact she did not contact you about the broken drive to start with, and that what was asked of you to do next by her was unreasonable. The actual facts of your reponse to her were fine and slightly bent your policies as an accomodation.

but I also feel you know you go over the top when customer's confront you. You admitted to such in your post. I think that is what people are reacting to in your responses and in this thread. I can picture your hurry up day where time is money and you have shipping to get done etc.. So I further imagine you get 5 minutes to check some email and get an unreasonable resposne from a customer and dash off a reply then move on to the next pressing thing.

I would suggest that when you know an email has annoyed you, you dash off that reply, but then save it as a draft and wait a few hours and then reread and edit it back to *simply the facts*. You may feel it takes more time upfront, but it will save you much time in avoiding pissing contests and pissing off customers. If they reply again you can save time by pulling up the draft you saved of the facts, editing it a bit to be a further reply of just the facts adn send it off. it takes thick skin to keep from getting sucked in by people with nothing better to do then get a good rant going


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## VOLFAN (Nov 27, 2005)

Boy, I can't believe this thread is still going. Kill it why you still have customers.

Bottom line: 
A happy customer will tell a few people (if any), a mad customer will tell at least ten... And probably many more. IMHO this thread is doing a lot more harm than good for the sponsor.

No matter which party is right or wrong, in business the customer is right ... if and only if ... you want repeat and referral business. No matter what, make your customer happy (to their satisfaction not yours) and they will (at the least) not "bad mouth" you about their experience. And, more times than not, will continue to do business and send referral business.

Continuing to reply a second, third, etc. time was probably not in the business owner's best interest. Of course this is just MHO.

VolFan
<><


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

MMG said:


> Who raised this moron? He's an adult having a temper tantrum... "The customer is always right" at the end is priceless. This customer needs to be comitted.


I'm sure that Samo and VOLFAN could have satisfied him.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> but I also feel you know you go over the top when customer's confront you. You admitted to such in your post. I think that is what people are reacting to in your responses and in this thread. I can picture your hurry up day where time is money and you have shipping to get done etc.. So I further imagine you get 5 minutes to check some email and get an unreasonable resposne from a customer and dash off a reply then move on to the next pressing thing.


Well, I think that is the issue right there. Its what to do when a customer becomes confrontational or abusive. Actually, in most cases, if someone becomes confrontational, we simply ignore them.

What may have become lost in the mire here is that after we issued the RMA, all went silent. The next wave began a week later - all sorts of threats from the customer (do I really need to post those?) about chargebacks, the better business bureau, the quality of our products, etc. I think that is where the tough decision is - simply ignoring it, or defending ones actions by repeating the policy and standing firm (that often frustrates people more than direct abuse, btw; it can be perceived as passive aggression, by some...); if that is 'over the top' then so be it.

At the end of the day, an upset and unreasonable customer is never a good thing; having dealt with customers for a long long time, I think I know when a relationship is salvagable and when its worth it to continue to cater to a difficult customer vs just cutting them loose.

I have to say the mouse posting, although extreme, was representative of some of the types of situations we've seen. I've got some pretty scary emails sent to me by some pretty scary people.

This has been an interesting discussion, and although the last few posts have been somewhat negative, its clear what most people think; I do appreciate the constructive criticism.

To those who think that the existence of this thread in its current state hurts our business, I would have to disagree. It helps. I've certainly learned more about some of the different perspectives here.

Left alone and without my defense, I'm not certain which way the winds would have blown. It was important (to me at least) to have the truth be told, rather than let a self-serving accusation go unchecked. Considering the lack of response of the OP to anyone, my guess is that our side of the story will remain uncontested.

So for now, I'm done responding here as the points I wanted to make have been made.

Thx


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Your not just buying the product but your buying the customer service for that product.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ufo4sale said:


> Your not just buying the product but your buying the customer service for that product.


The "customer service" for that product isn't lifetime, but 1-year. And even then, "customer service" doesn't mean "do anything the customer wants and do it for free."


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## susanandmark (Apr 16, 2001)

Ill probably regret this but here goes ... First let me say, I didn't go back and re-read this whole thread. I only came back because Mr. Jacob sent me another email, via the Better Business Bureau, and included this link as his "proof." Based on my initial exchange with Mr. Jacob, what I see here is pretty much the response I expected.

Oh and, feel free to continue to say whatever you wish about me, as I won't be reading again after this post. (Life is way too short.) Its fine if you think Im the customer from hell, but it is kind of funny because I get along so well with 99% of the people I deal with. Im actually a really calm, rational and reasonable person. And when Im on the other end of the customer service situation, I do try and go out of my way to make people happy.

People should absolutely shop wherever they want. It's not about the customer is always right, just as a human being I don't need to be insulted and degraded--in one message he actually accused me of having "serious [mental] problems, and thats just the one of several personal, totally unnecessary attacks that left me literally staring at my email with my mouth open in shock. This is a business person? Until I actually had to deal with him on an issue, I had no problems with Mr. Jacob or his products. I, personally, don't enjoy being harangued and badgered (even if you think Im a b*tch and totally wrong, no one deserves that) and if I had seen this thread, or one like it, I would have avoided him from the get go. Not even so much based on my original post, but his responses.

I also think it's an issue that he only offers a six-month warranty, when everyone else does one year, but thats my fault for not reading the fine print.

Its not worth going into but, let me just say (and you can believe me or not, your choice), but our actual email correspondence log looks very different than what was posted. Having said that, there is no denying there are two sides to every story.

My main issues were, and remain ...

1) It's not about the credit. Yes, I did ask, but what I didn't understand is why he immediately started insulting me and insisting he shouldn't have offered anything in the first place. In retrospect, I should have simply said I'd take any future business elsewhere and left it at that. I just wasnt aware I was unleashing a tirade.

I dont think Im special or owed anything, I just thought it might work out well for both of us if I made another (large) purchase from him. If he had ever once politely said, Sorry, our margins dont allow that. That would absolutely, 100% have been the end of it.

2) Mr. Jacob is the person who insisted I take my business elsewhere and that PTV Upgrade didn't want to deal with me. That they then try to charge me a re-stocking fee for the item they requested returnedthat's the part I won't let stand and the only reason I went to the Better Business Bureau and this forum.

3) Oddly enough, I actually thought the $75 exchange program would have been a fine and reasonable ideanot that he told me about it until after he DEMANDED I return the item Id ordered. I would have been more than happy with that solution from moment one.

PS: The reason Mr. Jacob didnt hear from me for a week was, well, I have a life.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

susanandmark said:


> Ill probably regret this but here goes ... First let me say, I didn't go back and re-read this whole thread. I only came back because Mr. Jacob sent me another email, via the Better Business Bureau, and included this link as his "proof." Based on my initial exchange with Mr. Jacob, what I see here is pretty much the response I expected.
> 
> Oh and, feel free to continue to say whatever you wish about me, as I won't be reading again after this post. (Life is way too short.) Its fine if you think Im the customer from hell, but it is kind of funny because I get along so well with 99% of the people I deal with. Im actually a really calm, rational and reasonable person. And when Im on the other end of the customer service situation, I do try and go out of my way to make people happy.
> 
> ...


Your absence from this thread has possibly served to further intensify some readers' belief that you "cut-and-ran", so I'm glad you returned to post a follow-up. As you've already seen, there are many supporters of PTV Upgrade here, and as you've stated, this is now a "he-said, she-said" situation. If you indeed have emails where PTVupgrade questioned your mental ability, by all means, you should post them. But please post them *in context*, with your message, his reply, etc., so that everyone can make their own determination. Thanks.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

susanandmark said:


> Ill probably regret this but here goes ... First let me say, I didn't go back and re-read this whole thread.


You don't need to read the whole thread - not that it would take all that long - but just post #13.

Is there anything in that post that is inaccurate or mis-represented?


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## Popasmurf (Jun 10, 2002)

I think she read post 13, considering Susan says "Its not worth going into but, let me just say (and you can believe me or not, your choice), but our actual email correspondence log looks very different than what was posted." What specifically is wrong or left out according to Susan, I have no clue.



jfh3 said:


> You don't need to read the whole thread - not that it would take all that long - but just post #13.
> 
> Is there anything in that post that is inaccurate or mis-represented?


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## VOLFAN (Nov 27, 2005)

JYoung said:


> I'm sure that Samo and VOLFAN could have satisfied him.


Hey genius, 
As a 15 year business owner in one of the toughest customer service industries - Retail Home Improvement - my track record speaks for itself and more than qualifies me to offer an opinion - 8500+ satisfied customers at the local and national level with ZERO BBB / BBBonline complaints ever filed - 12 straight years!

This is a serious issue for the sponsor considering their reputation, future business and the possible long term negative impact this could have on them. (I'm not sure but aren't web pages cached by the search engines? So conceivably this thread could be available on the internet for years to come, correct?)

Maybe you should know if a person is qualified to offer their opinion before you make a silly and snide remark. I would expect a little more professionalism on such a serious matter, especially concerning a board sponsor, and considering all your prior posts. Maybe that's just it ... you're a blow hard with nothing but time on your hands? IMHO

My suggestion, either offer something constructive to the issue / debate or zip it.

PTVUpgrade - 
I wish you the best in resolving the issue. What has worked successfully for us (when a problem escalates past a misunderstanding) is to just ask the customer "what do they want us to do to make it right?" Works wonderfully. It puts the customer back in charge. Don't worry, in over 15 years of business, I've never had a customer request something that was totally out of reason.

More often than not, (and I'm mentally prepared to eat the whole job if necessary at this stage - as high as 9k in one instance) I've often been pleasantly surprised that the customer is more than willing to meet me half way. But... I'm prepared to give a full refund if need be.

Oh, and give the refund without some ridiculous "restocking fee". How much effort does it take to put a hdd back on the shelf or cover shipping one way? A restocking fee may be justified in rare circumstances but a problem that has escalated to this level just needs to be resolved. A "restocking fee" just adds fuel to the fire, creates even more bad will and is doing nothing to increase your business. The latter being the whole point of being in business ... to grow.

So in reality are they going to refer more business to you even though you went the extra step and gave them what they wanted? Probably not. Did you lose the store? No. But they also won't go out of their way to tell everyone about the bad experience they had either... i.e. this thread. Which I promise you will happen if this is not resolved very quickly. And like it or not, it will and IS costing you business.

Good luck,

VOLFAN


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## dtreese (May 6, 2005)

I'm still confused why the OP feels they should get something for an out-of-warranty product that went bad. One year is 12 months. After that, the business no longer guarantees the product will continue to function. I, too, am glad to be out of retail, so that I no longer have to deal with specious complaints like this one.


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## treyj (May 13, 2002)

Lou, we're simply on different wavelengths. You don't see your attitude as abrasive, but the OP and I do. I'm sure that if I posted our conversation in this forum, you (and many of your loyal customers) would immediately point out how unreasonable I was being and how you had every right to say what you did. Was I the most polite customer you've ever had throughout our conversation? Certainly not; I became defensive because I was concerned that I was being deceived (which I immediately want to say that I have since learned that I had misinterpreted something and was not being deceived at all). I felt that rather than helping me understand, you quickly dismissed me, telling me to take my business elsewhere, and saying "Folks like yourself will never be happy." You concluded that from the single confrontational statement I made. Simply put, I found that to be a shocking attitude from someone running a business.

To address your specific questions...



tivoupgrade said:


> I'd like to ask you how could any confrontational scenario result in being 'pleasant' for anyone. Unless of course, we just gave everyone what they wanted, no matter how unreasonable they became....


Not many people like confrontation, but there are degrees of 'unpleasantness'. Our conversation became more 'unpleasant' that I would've expected. That came, not from 'not getting what I wanted', but from your attitude.



tivoupgrade said:


> Did you ask for something beyond what we normally offer? Did we become confrontational in our initial response, or did you become confrontational after we repeatedly did not tell you what you wanted to hear?


You became confrontational immediately after I expressed that I felt I was being deceived.



tivoupgrade said:


> Would you recommend that once we've told somebody what they don't want to hear (or after an autoresponse has been sent that outlines our policies) we simply ignore subsequent responses? Do think ignoring the confrontational emails results in a customer being any less frustrated or less interested in creating a post like this?


I'm not sure why you think I would think that; I've said that I thought _more _ communication would be the way to go, not _less_.



tivoupgrade said:


> I've not treated anyone with any less respect than they've treated me. Again, its a dialog and it really doesn't have anything to with being professional, it has to do with respect.


You've hit the nail on the head here. This is a clear point where we disagree. I _do _ think you need to treat the customer with more respect than they treat you. I don't believe customers want to be treated as peers; in the customer's mind, _you _ are there for _them_. It's their dollars, and they can go anywhere they want. When you're paying for service, you expect to be served. Think of your customers as your boss. Would you talk to your boss the way you've talked to me and the OP?


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

I'm still amazed anyone needs to pay for that product considering self-serve upgrades are so easy to do.

But if you're convinced you can do no right inside a PC case, you're better off paying someone an extra $150 or so to do it right.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

dtreese said:


> I'm still confused why the OP feels they should get something for an out-of-warranty product that went bad. One year is 12 months. After that, the business no longer guarantees the product


I think if you read justapixel's post in the thread it pretty much nails it. Some customers want a little more, and they ask. Some vendors are gracious and effective communicators (whether they bend or not) and some are not.

There were some details here that worked against success. Maxtor gauarantees the drive for 12 months (in some very specific situations a little less and in many others a lot more) but PTVUpgrade chose to warrant that drive for only 6 months. So while the purchaser thought she was asking for a very small accomodation it was in fact a major variation from what PTVUpgrade practiced. The relationship between PTVUpgrade and Maxtor is not the normal manufacturer/retailer one, and this limits their options.

Finally, it was a total failure of communication, maybe a business school classic example. The buyer honestly believed she was asking for a minor accomodation and had a proposed solution she regarded as win/win. The vendor honestly saw himself being attacked by just one more idiot who didn't deserve to be his customer.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

treyj said:


> Not many people like confrontation, but there are degrees of 'unpleasantness'. Our conversation became more 'unpleasant' that I would've expected. That came, not from 'not getting what I wanted', but from your attitude.
> 
> You became confrontational immediately after I expressed that I felt I was being deceived.


OK, so then going by what you are saying here, I became confrontational after you accused us of being deceived? My guess is that I did not become confrontational, but that I dismissed you - that is what I typically do when I am accused of deceiving someone. Again, I don't have the actual text to refer to here, but I am just guessing. In either case, you seem to suggest (especially from your subsequent comments) that the playing field, as far as how people treat each other, is not level. I can agree to disagree on that point. I think it should be. And I would guess that the only thing unpleasant about our conversation prior to it becoming confrontational is that I did not give you what you wanted before you accused me of deceiving you. Again, this is all speculation on my part, because I honestly don't know the details of the situation.



> I'm not sure why you think I would think that; I've said that I thought _more _ communication would be the way to go, not _less_.


I don't; I'm not sure why you think I would think that, either. I was simply asking you, since our approach was to ask several times, even after the customer got angry and abusive, what the problem was and why our offer of a discount that was not typical was met in response with threats and anger. I was curious as to whether just ignoring the situation might be a better alternative, in your opinion.



> You've hit the nail on the head here. This is a clear point where we disagree. I _do _ think you need to treat the customer with more respect than they treat you. I don't believe customers want to be treated as peers; in the customer's mind, _you _ are there for _them_. It's their dollars, and they can go anywhere they want. When you're paying for service, you expect to be served. Think of your customers as your boss. Would you talk to your boss the way you've talked to me and the OP?


Yes, we do disagree on that. And again, once the customer says to me, "give me this, or else I will take my business elsewhere..." Then I get to make a choice; in this case, "elsewhere" was fine with me. The RMA was generated, and subsequently more threats, demands to be exempt from our return policy, BBB filings, etc. Do I choose that every time? No. Every situation is different. In retrospect, would I have made the same choice? Absolutely.

Look, the bottom line is this: If a customer is angry, abusive and threatening because they can only get a $50 discount towards a yet-unspecified-purchase because a 14-month old product, 8 months out of warranty has failed, then red flags go off. If they continue to be aggressive and unreasonable after another round of diplomacy, then something is definitely wrong and its time to move on to other customers.

If you reread the dialog we posted (which was true, not fabricated or altered as the susanandmark suggested), you will see that we did attempt, several times, to explain with more details, and emphasized our discount was offered in good faith.

Could we have gone back and forth some more, made concessions, gone out of our way, given full refunds, bigger discounts, etc? Of course we could have. But we didn't, and that doesn't make us mean or evil, or deceitful or worthy of public harassment. It just means that we tend to stick to our policies, sometimes make some accommodations, and don't take a lot of crap from people who like to blame others for their own mistakes. I am not a Nordstrom and have no intention of being one.

Lots of different styles an opinions out there. Its not a 'one size fits all model' that will work, but as a small business, and as a consumer, I don't believe 'squeaky wheels' like susanandmark need to be greased; reinforcing behavior like that just leads to more headaches and support challenges down the road. She threatened to go somewhere else, I am happy to release her to the competition and uphold my return policies.

This method has worked for me, in this particular business of PTVupgrade for almost six years. If you look around at our competitors, many have come and gone; and none have been around as long. In short, it works, and I can sleep at night.

I do appreciate the conversation, your points, and a good discussion, though. I don't appreciate the harsh and disrespectful responses of folks who act as if they know better than everyone else.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

VOLFAN said:


> Hey genius,
> As a 15 year business owner in one of the toughest customer service industries - Retail Home Improvement - my track record speaks for itself and more than qualifies me to offer an opinion - 8500+ satisfied customers at the local and national level with ZERO BBB / BBBonline complaints ever filed - 12 straight years!
> 
> This is a serious issue for the sponsor considering their reputation, future business and the possible long term negative impact this could have on them. (I'm not sure but aren't web pages cached by the search engines? So conceivably this thread could be available on the internet for years to come, correct?)
> ...


Wow. 
Someone get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
Silly remark yes, Snide no.

I'm glad you have done so well in your business but I've been doing some sort of customer support for over 20 years, including a 5 year stint as the head of CS for a Medical laboratory servicing medical doctors (some of the toughest clients to handle).
And I had very few complaints while doing it.

And I do not believe that the customer is always right.
And I think that people should have the right to fire customers that believe the rules don't apply to them.

As for your name calling,


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> I am not a Nordstrom and have no intention of being one.


Nor do you have a chance to become one with your attitude toward customers. At first I thought that you just made a business mistake (happens to the best of us), but your follow up posts are clear indication that this is your business philosophy. I would never do business with somebody like you (not that I would do business with you anyhow - I think it is stupid to pay somebody $100 to format a drive) after reading your posts.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Wow! 

I am just amazed at the hostility in this thread all started by susanandmark. I guess I will never understand someone who wants to be a member of a community, starts a bunch of crap, and then doesn't stick around to defend their position.

How about some facts folks. TreyJ, prove your point. If you want to be taken seriously post your e-mail exchanges with PTV. The problem is that probably both treyj and susanandmark made some unpleasant remarks of their own in those messages and they really don't want the whole truth to come out so they avoid the deposition phase of the trial and go straight to the closing arguments.

Y-ASK


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## Barryrod (Mar 17, 2006)

My suggestion is this...OP ship back the kit you ordered from PTV and pay the 15% restocking fee. Then refer to drive manufacturer for replacement drive under their warranty if it has not expired. Either way, get a new drive and download the image for your Tivo from PTV. Do research and learn how to image your new drive. Do it and enjoy your Tivo again.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Chaulk this whole experience up to you not having a clue and educate yourself a little bit about how your Tivos work.


To Lou. If you are feeling generous, you could get her the image at no cost and help her with the reimage of her new drive (after you get back the kit and 15% restocking fee). If not, so be it. I personally think you already went out of your way to help her by offering her the $50 credit for her dead drive, but if it helps clear this mess up, it won't really cost you anything but time and a little pride.


I kinda feel a little sorry for her as she is stuck in her world of cluelessness and needs to break out. She proved it by thinking the drive was lightly used after 14 months of continuous running 24/7.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

I've never spoken with Lou on the phone, but I have exchanged e-mails with him. IMO his fuse is short and he will quickly invite you not to be a customer. Just my personal experience.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

VOLFAN said:


> Hey genius,
> <snip>
> Maybe you should know if a person is qualified to offer their opinion before you make a silly and snide remark. I would expect a little more professionalism on such a serious matter, especially concerning a board sponsor, and considering all your prior posts. Maybe that's just it ... you're a blow hard with nothing but time on your hands? IMHO
> 
> ...


anyone else enjoying the overwhelming irony of the reply? EDIT - I see that JYoung is 

Volfan - you state your case quite well, and of course this is not a thread directly related to your business, but how do you tell someone to stay professional and someone else to avoid cheap shots while posting several humdingers yourself.


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## Popasmurf (Jun 10, 2002)

I should probably just keep my nose out of this, and will probably regret this... 

I love this community, and know that even families fight every once in awhile, but guys... This needs to stop. This is really getting us no where I think. I really think this thread either needs to be locked, or we just all need to take a cool, calm, relaxing breath and move on.


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## Mamoth (Jun 21, 2004)

Maybe we need to take the advice of Penn.. and..


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Complaint Case #: XXXXXXX
Consumer: XXXXXXXX

Thank you
for your cooperation in responding to the above consumer's complaint. 
Following our usual procedure, we notified the consumer of your response and requested notification of whether or not it was satisfactorily resolved. The consumer has notified our office they are not satisfied. Your company has made a good faith and reasonable effort in an attempt to resolve this issue; therefore we are closing the case at this time.

The Better Business Bureau develops and maintains Reliability Reports on companies in our service area. This information is available to the public and is frequently used by potential customers. Your level of cooperation in resolving to this complaint becomes a part of your file with the Better Business Bureau.

Sincerely,

[name removed]
Assistant Manager Direct Retail
Services
[email address removed]


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## VOLFAN (Nov 27, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> anyone else enjoying the overwhelming irony of the reply?
> 
> Volfan - you state your case quite well, and of course this is not a thread directly related to your business, but how do you tell someone to stay professional and someone else to avoid cheap shots while posting several humdingers yourself.


Point taken and I sincerely apologize for the cheap shot(s) and unprofessional attitude. And yes, I did in fact get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and stepped on the dog in the process. Ouch! 

Why did I fire back? 
As a member of several tech / computer related forums, I read through quite a few discussions throughout the day. However, many of the comments are kids posting ridiculous and unhelpful comments (Digg, etc.). As a member of the online community for the past 15 years, I normally just reside myself to reading rather than posting. I guess that's what surprised me yesterday - to see such an unproductive comment from a senior member with a 6000+ post count. I guess I lost it for a moment.

From what I've witnessed in this community over the past year (and why I enjoy this place so much), is that community members normally don't put up with such nonsense. Again, I apologize for the first part of my post as it was unproductive as well.

I think very highly of this community and it's members and value all that I've learned, especially as a fairly new TiVo owner. I look forward to learning more and assisting where applicable.

As for the sponsor and customer situation... 
I am still simply amazed that they (sponsor) are continuing to banter back and forth. I guess I'm "old school" in that bad publicity is not always better than no publicity. When given the chance to prevent making a bad impression or create ill will in front of a future potential customer(s), even just one potential customer - I take it! Especially on a venue as public as this.

To me, keeping a steady flow of new business / customers coming through the door on a daily / monthly / yearly basis has enough obstacles, headaches and entails way too high of cost(s) to be adding more obstacles along the path. Especially when it could and should have been resolved at whatever the cost. I promise it would have cost the sponsor a whole lot less to resolve the issue than it is now. (Read future sales). Again, that's just my humble opinion and business philosophy.

Good luck!

Volfan


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

I've never purchased anything from PTVupgrade but will now just in spite of the few goofballs that have posted in this thread.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

montag said:


> I've never purchased anything from PTVupgrade but will now just in spite of the few goofballs that have posted in this thread.


  That's great! LOL! I havn't heard the term goofballs in a long time! Classic...

Y-ASK


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This thread has run it's course

Dan


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