# Getting ready for series 3 - cablecard woes



## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

This was talked about in another thread, but I wanted to start a new one because I have specific concerns about Switched Broadcasting and Series 3 and I'd like someone from TiVo to give some additional insite if possible...

...
Series 3 will support cablecards - great! It'll be able to record HD and digital cable - even better!

But Time Warner, and other cable companies are launching Switched Broadcasting which means that not every signal will be routed to your home. Instead your cable box would communicate with the head unit or node in your neighborhood and have the desire channel switched to your vicinity. This requires 2-way communication which means that 

1) the cablecard needs to support 2-way, which is not out yet
2) the device needs to support 2-way

So, how will series 3 work? I'm extremely concerned about this potentially hidden flaw in my plan to ditch my SARA POS and get a Series 3 for HD. 

I'm trying to figure out which channels in my area are switched. So far it appears that the only switched channels have analog equivilants, and HD is not switched. But how will TiVo know which channels are switched? Or will it be trial and error? This seems like its gonna be one big pain in the butt.

So, can anyone from TiVo dish out the dirt on this?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

"On Demand" and PPV work this way on all cable systems which is one big negative for the Series 3 with the one way cable cards, There may be other cable problems with S3 we don't know about yet thats why I will use the crappy Moto box for HD until I see how the S3 works from posts on the BB. Remember the cable co box has unlimited warranty on sight.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

zync said:


> 1) the cablecard needs to support 2-way, which is not out yet
> 2) the device needs to support 2-way


All of this is coming with the multi-stream CableCard 2 and the Series 3, I know nothing about switched broadcasts, but the 2-way support will be there.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

tbeckner said:


> All of this is coming with the multi-stream CableCard 2 and the Series 3, I know nothing about switched broadcasts, but the 2-way support will be there.


 No, 2-way support is not there in the S3 and that is why Switched Broadcasting is such a big issue, to me included since there will be deployment of a few channels in my area sometime this year. It's not only an issue with S3 but any current CableCard or unencrypted QAM tuner devices you may have.

One thing I wonder though. If someone on your node (node sizes vary a lot but I think are around 300 in my neighborhood) has already requested a channel and it's already routed on the switch will you be able to tune that channel without 2-way communications? Or does the 2-way communications still have to happen to identify the RF channel & sub-channel to tune to?


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

moyekj said:


> No, 2-way support is not there in the S3 and that is why Switched Broadcasting is such a big issue, to me included since there will be deployment of a few channels in my area sometime this year. It's not only an issue with S3 but any current CableCard or unencrypted QAM tuner devices you may have.


Are we sure 2-way support is missing with S3? I've read it both ways now.

As far as other equipment, I wonder why cable companies think this a valid thing to be rolling out without a solution, unless its a "screw the customer who doesn't have our box" mentality.



moyekj said:


> One thing I wonder though. If someone on your node (node sizes vary a lot but I think are around 300 in my neighborhood) has already requested a channel and it's already routed on the switch will you be able to tune that channel without 2-way communications? Or does the 2-way communications still have to happen to identify the RF channel & sub-channel to tune to?


Not sure, but I'll ask the tech when he comes out tomorrow


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> One thing I wonder though. If someone on your node (node sizes vary a lot but I think are around 300 in my neighborhood) has already requested a channel and it's already routed on the switch will you be able to tune that channel without 2-way communications?


Short answer:
Depends on the implementation

Long answer:
Yes, you may be able to get the channel with early / current implementations. However, it's not something I'd want to depend on.

See:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3923403&&#post3923403


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Haven't we been told that the LAW now requires cable companies to cooperate with third party devices using cable cards? In other words, they have to let the customer have their own equipment that'll work with most channels (except maybe for HBO types or PPV)? Sort of a digital world version of having a cable-ready tuner in your TV or VCR?

Seems to me that setting things up so that only one or a few channels are being sent to your house at a time will mess with that. Can the cable companies even do it?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

zync said:


> Are we sure 2-way support is missing with S3? I've read it both ways now.


What I remember hearing from TiVo people (in person) is that the Series 3 will work with whatever cable card the cable company gives you.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> What I remember hearing from TiVo people (in person) is that the Series 3 will work with whatever cable card the cable company gives you.


But the 2-way support, at least as currently defined in the (non-final) spec require additional hardware in the set top box, beyond the cable card.

Also apparently it requires using the cable companies preferred software so that they can override the on screen display for 2-way features. Which is why the box providers think that the current proposed spec is a bad deal for them.

The S3 that was show at CES doesn't appear to have this extra hardware that would be necessary. (Assuming that the currently proposed spec is even the version that is finally accepted).


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> What I remember hearing from TiVo people (in person) is that the Series 3 will work with whatever cable card the cable company gives you.


Two-way functionality depends on hardware being present in the host (STB, TV, DVR, whatever).

A one-way host will work with whatever card the cable company sends you. That's the way CableLabs designed things ... so the cards are backwards compatible ... so the cable company doesn't have to ask you "oh, what kind of card do you need?" ... they just send you the latest / greatest card.

However, a one-way host is only going to give you one-way functionality. Doesn't matter what version card gets used. You're not going to be able to upgrade a one-way host to two-way functionality by using a new card from the cable company.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

zync said:


> As far as other equipment, I wonder why cable companies think this a valid thing to be rolling out without a solution, unless its a "screw the customer who doesn't have our box" mentality.


Switched broadcast is a way to conserve bandwidth and offer more channels, more HD channels, more VOD content, higher broadband speeds, etc., etc., and everything else customers want which all requires ... more bandwidth.

So ... keep offering (basically) the same stuff you're offering now or ... find ways to save bandwidth to start offering more.

Most other ways cable has to conserve bandwidth is also incompatible with existing CableCard devices ... 1024QAM, 1+GHz, AVCs, IPTV, moving linear content to VOD, etc. etc. etc. Just like when cable started moving channels over to digital to save space and offer more channels ... well, the digital channels couldn't be recieved by old analog-only recievers.

Now, one way cable has to save bandwidth and NOT disenfranchise current CableCard products is to start (more aggressively) moving analog channels over to digital and dropping the analog channel(s). Of course, every time cable does that ... you hear howls of protest from people using analog cable-ready products who can't get the digital channel so ... pick your poison.

Guess which move gets more complaints ... moving an analog channel over to digital ... or moving an existing digital channel over to switched ...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> Two-way functionality depends on hardware being present in the host (STB, TV, DVR, whatever).
> 
> A one-way host will work with whatever card the cable company sends you. That's the way CableLabs designed things ... so the cards are backwards compatible ... so the cable company doesn't have to ask you "oh, what kind of card do you need?" ... they just send you the latest / greatest card.
> 
> However, a one-way host is only going to give you one-way functionality. Doesn't matter what version card gets used. You're not going to be able to upgrade a one-way host to two-way functionality by using a new card from the cable company.


This is the big problem I see with the Series 3, TiVo is not going to change it out when two way comes but the cable Co. will always give you the newest and greatest cable box without cost (unless you order new pay features IE like a Cable box with HD-DVR about $10/month more in my area) The cable co. could not compete with the Series 2 if you did not want Digital or HD channels, you could just set a S2 up to any TV without contacting the Cable co, Series 3 is another matter because Digital and HD are still in flux with the Cable Co and will keep changing for a few years. If you can live with just over the air HD, Series 3 will work great and be a lot cheaper than having cable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's *highly unlikely* that the most watched channels, such as the broadcast channels, ESPN, Comedy Central, MTV, HBO, etc... will ever go switched. Because if the channel is always being watched then it offers no bandwidth savings to the cable company. Switched broadcasts are more likely to be used on the more obscure, speciality, channels that have a much smaller audience.

Dan


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> It's *highly unlikely* that the most watched channels, such as the broadcast channels, ESPN, Comedy Central, MTV, HBO, etc... will ever go switched. Because if the channel is always being watched then it offers no bandwidth savings to the cable company. Switched broadcasts are more likely to be used on the more obscure, speciality, channels that have a much smaller audience.


Like the HD versions of ESPN, Comedy Central, MTV, HBO, etc. 

BTW, no, I don't know if it will be common (or not) for the HD channels to be switched. It is a strategy that is _talked_ about ... but what actually happens in wide-spread deployment(s) will depend on results / experience from early trials and implementations.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Sounds just like how Digital Cable was introduced. This switched thing will suck if a separate component is needed yet again with the S3.


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm always reminded of a humorous tidbit I came across on the Web some time ago. Hasn't really been updated, but still rings pretty true. Especially the last few lines.

A Brief History of HDTV


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> It's *highly unlikely* that the most watched channels, such as the broadcast channels, ESPN, Comedy Central, MTV, HBO, etc... will ever go switched. Because if the channel is always being watched then it offers no bandwidth savings to the cable company. Switched broadcasts are more likely to be used on the more obscure, speciality, channels that have a much smaller audience.
> 
> Dan


 That's what I figured too... but then I heard that digital simulcast channels (the digital versions of the analog channels) will be among the first to go switched. I guess the thinking by the Cable company on those is that a large portion of their subscribers still only subscribe to analog cable and therefore there may be some savings to be had by making the digital versions switched, at least in the early going.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

moyekj said:


> No, 2-way support is not there in the S3 and that is why Switched Broadcasting is such a big issue, to me included since there will be deployment of a few channels in my area sometime this year. It's not only an issue with S3 but any current CableCard or unencrypted QAM tuner devices you may have.
> 
> One thing I wonder though. If someone on your node (node sizes vary a lot but I think are around 300 in my neighborhood) has already requested a channel and it's already routed on the switch will you be able to tune that channel without 2-way communications? Or does the 2-way communications still have to happen to identify the RF channel & sub-channel to tune to?


Not as per Dan Collins, the S3 has two-way capability. And it appears based upon my reading of the technology, the HEAD-IN will handle the Switched Digital Broadcast requests.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> the HEAD-IN will handle the Switched Digital Broadcast requests.


Yes, the head-end handles switched broadcast requests ... however, the STB / client has to be able to send a request to the head-end.

Same with VOD and iPPV and everything else. That's what makes a two-way host two-way ... the ability to send stuff to the head-end. One-way hosts can just recieve stuff from the head-end ...


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

tbeckner said:


> Not as per Dan Collins, the S3 has two-way capability. And it appears based upon my reading of the technology, the HEAD-IN will handle the Switched Digital Broadcast requests.


 OK, so maybe there is some hope here. From other threads I've been reading and from dt_dc posts I got the strong impression that indeed SDV would be a problem with the S3 since it wouldn't have the necessary hardware for OCAP or whatever is used for 2-way communications. I hope I'm wrong and wish someone from Tivo could chime in with their understanding of this.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Sounds just like how Digital Cable was introduced. This switched thing will suck if a separate component is needed yet again with the S3.


What would be worse is if it took another generation of product to meet that functionality. I would certainly like to know the reality on this.

If it is not present initially is it something that can be done via a software upgrade or will it require a hardware upgrade on the receiver side?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tbeckner said:


> Not as per Dan Collins, the S3 has two-way capability.


I'm not sure who Dan Collins is, but he's wrong! The S3 will NOT be two-way capable. It will have the ability to use a multi-stream card for dual tuner capability, but that's it! In fact the specification for two-way CableCARD devices (CableCARD 2.0) hasn't even been finalized yet, so it's impossible for a piece of hardware slated for release this year to be two-way complaint.

Now it's _possible_ that TiVo could include all the hardware required for two-way communication in the S3 and enable it some day down the road when the CableCARD 2.0 spec is finalized and put into use. However it's unlikely since it would add significant costs to the box for hardware which may not even be compatible with what's decided on in the final specification.

Dan


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> From other threads I've been reading and from dt_dc posts I got the strong impression that indeed SDV would be a problem with the S3 since it wouldn't have the necessary hardware for OCAP or whatever is used for 2-way communications.


Regarding the S3 (specifically), two-way functionality, and switched broadcast ...


dt_dc said:


> As noted above ... I don't think there's been anything definitive from Tivo about whether (or not) they will support two-way functionality. I (personally) am highly doubtful they will ... others seem to think it a possibility.
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3920507&&#post3920507


As to why I think two-way on the S3 is unlikely ... I agree with Dan's reasons in the post above. In addition ...


dt_dc said:


> But even with a two-way implementation, switched broadcast is going to be problematic for Tivo. Because of the way two-way functionality and OCAP are specced ...
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3922872&&#post3922872


Accessing switched broadcasts in a recordable way right now for Tivo under the current specs (even the two-way specs) would be ... FUBAR (to put it nicely).


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Another thought on this matter. My cable company Motorola DCT6412 DVR uses OOB tuner for communicating back to headend. Is that hardware sufficient for SDV channels or will there need to be new hardware from the cable company? I get the impression that cable company digital set tops (including DVRs) would also need to be replaced for customers to be able to tune SDV channels.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Nope. The cable company has complete control over their hardware, so they can make it work with their own STBs and DVRs. However 3rd parties like TiVo are forced to deal with the CableCARD standard, which at this point doesn't even have a way to deal with switched broadcasts. And even when CableCARD 2.0 is finished it's looking like it will be very restrictive as to how they handle switched broadcasts, which may disuade companies like TiVo from supporting it.

Dan


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

moyekj said:


> OK, so maybe there is some hope here. From other threads I've been reading and from dt_dc posts I got the strong impression that indeed SDV would be a problem with the S3 since it wouldn't have the necessary hardware for OCAP or whatever is used for 2-way communications. I hope I'm wrong and wish someone from Tivo could chime in with their understanding of this.





marksman said:


> What would be worse is if it took another generation of product to meet that functionality.


I'm afraid that this may be why TiVo reps are not participating in this thread ...

The S3 box isn't out yet, so to confirm that the box could not handle SDV or two-way communication would make a lot of us hold off on buying the S3. I would think that if the box could indeed handle this, TiVo would be chiming in right away to say, "Yes, we've taken that into consideration, so be first in line to buy the S3!"


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I'm not sure who Dan Collins is, but he's wrong!


Dan Collins is the administrator of DBSForums


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Another thought on this matter. My cable company Motorola DCT6412 DVR uses OOB tuner for communicating back to headend. Is that hardware sufficient for SDV channels or will there need to be new hardware from the cable company? I get the impression that cable company digital set tops (including DVRs) would also need to be replaced for customers to be able to tune SDV channels.


The OOB QPSK data channel should be sufficient for SDV in the near-term. Longer term ... you might need a box that supports the CableLabs DOCSIS Set-top Gateway (DSG) specs ... ie, an STB with an embedded DOCSIS modem. Cable is deploying some of those ... but untill they are more widespread OOB QPSK will be most commonly used.

BTW, my impression of some of the filings by the CEA with the FCC is that they are trying to get CableLabs to allow for a "simple messaging" solution via OOB QPSK for SDV ... so they could start making products now that support SDV without the full OCAP / DOCSIS two-way implementation ... by including a QPSK modulator in the hardware:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3923464&&#post3923464
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3923847&&#post3923847

No clue if they'll be successful ... or if I've guessed right about the ""technical solution, not yet reduced to a technical standard".


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's promising. So if the tuners in the S3 are OBB QPSK compatible then they should be able to support SDV some time in the future when/if this simple communication protocol is ratified as a standard.

In fact they should try to get something similar worked out for PPV and VOD as well. It seems rediculos to require full OCAP support for something so simple.

Dan


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> So if the tuners in the S3 are OBB QPSK compatible then they should be able to support SDV some time in the future when/if this simple communication protocol is ratified as a standard.


The keyword there is *if*. Under the current licensing agreement, any attempt to use OOB QPSK to communicate to the head-end by a one-way host is forbidden ... and two-way hosts basically have to give complete control of the OOB QPSK return channel to OCAP cable software.

BTW, the S3 would have to have a OOB QPSK tuner / demodulator. That's needed to get certain stuff from the head-end (even for a one-way product). CA info ... channel tuning data ... etc.

The key is the OOB QPSK modulator (to send messages back to the head-end) ... and of course a standard way of doing so for SDV. That's the part that has no use in a (current) one-way product.

Personally ... I'd still prefer Firewire (yes, it's expensive and a PITA to implement and many current implementations don't work so well, and you'd still need that seperate box) ... but it's a 'known' solution and this is exactly what it was meant for.

But yes ... hopefully the CEA gets their solution in too. It'd be good to see (for many reasons).


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> In fact they should try to get something similar worked out for PPV and VOD as well. It seems rediculos to require full OCAP support for something so simple.


The original specs actually were based on this. OCAP / DOCSIS was only needed for advanced / future / undefined functionality. A simple way of messaging for iPPV and VOD was to be developed ... OOB QPSK would be sufficient for the "common" uses.

Problems from cable's perspective ...
- You're locking yourself into a 'standard' now that becomes very hard to change / add to later. With OCAP it's alot easier for cable to evolve / change two-way functionality as needed.
- Every manufacturer is going to have their own interface onto your system ... hard to support.
- And then there's the whole "who gets the initial eyeballs" thing ... cable or the CE companies. It's alot like Netscape / Microsoft seeing control of the browser as key to profit from the web.

Problems from CE's perspective ...
- Alot of companies don't want to have to write their own VOD client, iPPV client, etc. They just want to provide hardware and let cable software do the rest.
- There's always the possibility that cable will come up with some "killer app" that you can't support via the "simple messaging" solution. Alot of CE companies seem to want both ... the ability to run cable apps AND put their own interface on top if they want. All well and good, but ... more flexibility = harder to implement.

It all got dropped for the mandatory OCAP / DOCSIS full-blown implementation ...

Anyway, there's strong arguments for both. Somewhere I made a guess about the possibility of "OCAP+" coming sometime down the line. The "+" part I was getting at was this more "API-like" way for CE companies to get at VOD, PPV, SDV, etc.

Watch and see ... watch and see ...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

drew2k said:


> I'm afraid that this may be why TiVo reps are not participating in this thread ...


I wouldn't expect the Tivo reps to comment at all until more detailed specs are made (publically) available by Tivo.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Hopefully the mere existence of these various S3 & SDV threads has alerted someone at Tivo to the problem if it was not already an acknowledged problem to them.


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> It's *highly unlikely* that the most watched channels, such as the broadcast channels, ESPN, Comedy Central, MTV, HBO, etc... will ever go switched. Because if the channel is always being watched then it offers no bandwidth savings to the cable company. Switched broadcasts are more likely to be used on the more obscure, speciality, channels that have a much smaller audience.
> 
> Dan


These are the channels that I won't be able to get because of switched video.
-Premium West coast channels (HBO west, SHO west, etc..)
-Any Sports package
-The Hispanic Tier
-The HD Tier. Includes: Univeral HD, IN HD1, IN HD2, HD Net, HD Net Movies and ESPN-HD.

This info is from Feb of this year. I'm sure they are not going to stop at these channels.
I've been waiting for a Tivo for years that could handle digital cable. Specifically for the HD content. I might have already purchased my last Tivo if it can't handle switched video. I'm not going to wait around another 2 years for a series 4 to come out, that finally handles switched video. By then the cable companies will have moved on to a different technology.
Can't Tivo make the S3 modular? When the new cable card specs get approved, if they can't upgrade the box via software, give me the option to upgrade its hardware so it is.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Wow, those channels are more "main stream" then I thought. Unfortunately there is no way for TiVo to support switched video in a S3 even if they wanted to. The CableCARD spec for it has not been finalized yet. They might be able to include the hardware for future support, but until cable companies ratify the spec and are forced to start using it there is nothing TiVo can do.

It's unfortunate for you, but luckily for TiVo switched video is still in the trial phase and only accounts for a very small percentage of the market.

Dan


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> It's unfortunate for you, but luckily for TiVo switched video is still in the trial phase and only accounts for a very small percentage of the market.


 Yes but pending the success it could quickly turn into a much bigger percentage of the market if someone like Comcast adopts it. When the S3 first comes out it likely will still be a small market, but a year or two later there may be plenty of pissed of Tivo customers that find the S3 doesn't work anymore for certain channels - not Tivo's fault of course but ultimately they may take a lot of the heat for it.

Worst case though the S3 will still work for a large number of channels not implemented on SDV and of course OTA input is not affected by this so there is still a value proposal for S3 even for markets where SDV is being deployed. For me though it means I will likely have to keep my cable company HD DVR in addition to the S3 which sends the monthly costs up quite considerably.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

Moebius said:


> I'm always reminded of a humorous tidbit I came across on the Web some time ago. Hasn't really been updated, but still rings pretty true. Especially the last few lines.
> 
> A Brief History of HDTV


http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F14

Charlie: Why stop there, Homer? My militia has a secret plan to beat up all sorts of government officials! That'll teach them to drag their feet on high definition TV!


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

So the short story is all my hopes and dreams for ditching SARA for S3 have all gone out the window because TWC is using SDV in my area. Once again consumers are SOL.

I'm so depressed that everywhere I look there are massive barriers for getting real user-friendly HD that just don't have to be there, but alas they are...

SDV and problems with S3 *sigh*
Blueray vs HD-DVD *sigh*
HDMI requirement and downresizing component video *sigh*

I'll go cry now.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Gene S said:


> These are the channels that I won't be able to get because of switched video.
> -Premium West coast channels (HBO west, SHO west, etc..)
> -Any Sports package
> -The Hispanic Tier
> ...


How can one determine if a channel is switched?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

moyekj said:


> .... Worst case though the S3 will still work for a large number of channels not implemented on SDV and of course OTA input is not affected by this so there is still a value proposal for S3 even for markets where SDV is being deployed. For me though it means I will likely have to keep my cable company HD DVR in addition to the S3 which sends the monthly costs up quite considerably.


IMO, this would defeat the purpose of buying an S3. I want it to *replace* my current STB for the enhanced experience the S3 is sure to provide. Having more than one STB in the chain will only detract from my experience


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

It seems like a switched channel will have a delay before it appears on-screen when you tune it in (at least the first time you request the channel). Would this be accurate?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

This switched channel stuff was talk about in the 80s was too hard to do then, its one of its main purpose is to keep people from cheating and allow the cable Co. to charge for each Cable outlet you have in your home by having a cable box at each outlet, this would make recording a real pain and with multiple recorders (VHS-DVD-DVR) the pain gets bad. One big advantage of cable now is that you can put a cheep TVs or recorders anywhere you want with no increase in cost (kitchen Guest Bedroom ETC after running a cable which for a new home is easy) as least for the non digital channels of which I have 70 of. This keeps people from running a cable to their next door neighbor and things like that. I guess I will enjoy what I have now and deal with the future when it comes to my area (in 30 years I hope as I will be dead by then)


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

DCIFRTHS said:


> How can one determine if a channel is switched?


I got the info from my local HD thread over at AVS. 
I don't notice an increased delay when I change to one of these channels vs other channels. Of course I'm using Tme Warners DVR also, so there is a delay no matter what channel I turn to.


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## jdmatl (Apr 27, 2003)

I take it you guys have seen this?

While switched digital video is picking up steam this year with cable operators such as Cox and Time Warner Cable, it's not reaching critical mass like digital simulcast deployments did last year.

Some of cable's top chief technical officers chatted about industry matters during a panel earlier this week at the NCTA National Show in Atlanta and switched digital video (SDV), also known as switched digital broadcast, was one of the topics.

http://www.ct-magazine.com/news/041706.html


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

jdmatl said:


> I take it you guys have seen this?
> 
> http://www.ct-magazine.com/news/041706.html


Yes. Some more:


> During the panel discussion, TWC CTO Mike LaJoie said his company has SDV deployed in Austin; Columbia, SC; and a third unannounced system. He said it will be in four to six systems next year and that the bandwidth savings thus far have exceeded 50 percent.
> 
> "We'll be more aggressive next year. It's not that hard to do," he said.
> (...)
> ...


So SDV deployments by my count:
Time Warner - 3 markets now, plans for 4 to 6 markets next year
CableVision - Limited deployment in NY area (not sure where, but sounds like same places they are planning on testing their RS-DVR)
Cox - plans for trials in 2 markets, probably this year
Comcast - "very important" but no firm plans, watching Time Warner and Cox
Rogers - plans for trials this year

Lots of "plans" ... hopefully they won't go so well.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

dt_dc said:


> Yes. Some more:
> So SDV deployments by my count:
> Time Warner - 3 markets now, plans for 4 to 6 markets next year


Yeah, Austin - MY market


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

This does really suck for evreybody. I'd call and write your local congressman on the issue, Goverment officials won't be happy to hear the spirit of the law or regulations isn't being followed, Congress has worked very hard to keep the simple plug and play with the new TV's, It's the whole point of cable card.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

Alright, you guys are way over my head on the technical stuff. Can you break it down for me?

I was stoked about ditching my hideous SARA software based TWC DVR (I use my Series 2 Tivos for most all of my SD recording) and buying all new Series 3 boxes to record everything. 

Does this mean that upon release (or very soon thereafter) that I won't be able to use a Series 3 and get all of my channels?

If so, this is gonna suck. I may have to move to another market where I can get the PASSPORT software based DVR, that one is tolerable.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Wow, before this thread I had never heard of SDV. As far as I can tell SDV is the nail in the coffin for an S3 for me. Yes Comcast isn't deploying it yet but I have no desire to get locked into a contract and then have a device that can't record HD when Comcast does decide to deploy SDV.

I would be SHOCKED if SDV isn't used in the future to obsolete CC1 and CC2.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

jacksonian said:


> Alright, you guys are way over my head on the technical stuff. Can you break it down for me?
> (...)
> Does this mean that upon release (or very soon thereafter) that I won't be able to use a Series 3 and get all of my channels?


Without getting into the "technical stuff" ... there's no easy yes / no answer. The best answer one can give is ...

Maybe ... check back when more details are released about the S3 ... closer to it's release and before buying ...


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## AZrob (Mar 31, 2002)

Maybe a dumb question, but I'm not sure: will we at least be able to record HD on the S3 if we don't use the cablecard, but instead rent a HD converter from the cable company? 

Rob from AZ


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

No. The S3 will not allow any external input. So the only way you'll be able to record HD is via either ATSC (over the air) or via QAM (cable). Luckily cable companies are required by law to broadcast local HD channels free and clear, so those will never be blocked by this SDV. However cable based HD channels, such as HBO, ShowTime, ESP, etc... could.

Dan


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Luckily cable companies are required by law to broadcast local HD channels free and clear, so those will never be blocked by this SDV.


That would prevent _encrypting_ a channel ... however it would not prevent switched broadcast. Encryption and switching ... two different things

Also, the FCC has said they don't think that rule applies to cables companies subject to "effective competition" status ... which more and more cable companies are applying for (including mine).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> That would prevent _encrypting_ a channel ... however it would not prevent switched broadcast. Encryption and switching ... two different things


I thought the whole point of preventing them from being encrypted was to prevent them from requiring a leased cable box to tune them. SDV would require a leased box and would break at least the spirit of that law.

Dan


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I thought the whole point of preventing them from being encrypted was to prevent them from requiring a leased cable box to tune them. SDV would require a leased box and would break at least the spirit of that law.


Technically, the intent of that particular set of regulations was to allow for a basic set of functionality for analog cable-ready equipment ... specifically that analog must-carry OTA stations would always be available (when combined with other regulations about how analog must-carry stations must be carried). And while some of the regulations are open-ended and would seem to also apply to digital channels ... the end results aren't always quite the same.

Now, the "spirit" of the regulation would certainly be looked at if the issue was ever challanged / revisited / addressed / whatever at the FCC ...

But as of now (my interpretation of course) encryption is forbidden but not switching for digital locals.

Part of this also goes back to the fact that the FCC was not as (technically) specific with how digital "must carry" stations must be carried as they were with analog "must carry" stations. The analog rules got pretty specific ... the digital rules however, are alot more fuzzy.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

Gene S said:


> These are the channels that I won't be able to get because of switched video.
> -Premium West coast channels (HBO west, SHO west, etc..)
> -Any Sports package
> -The Hispanic Tier
> ...


It is interesting to see some of the channels that they are doing this with. It makes sense at this point that they would be seeing a very good bandwidth savings with those channels. I however think long term they will see less and less savings. At the moment I am sure they have a low percentage of HD customers so Univeral HD, IN HD1, IN HD2, HD Net, HD Net Movies and ESPN-HD are not watched much. As HD TVs become more and more widespread those channels will be much more frequently tuned and the savings from those channels will drop dramatically.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

One tidbit from Cox on the subject of SDV not working with current CableCard and 1-way tuners. The thinking seems to be it's best to do the switch over to SDV sooner than later since the CableCard useage is still fairly low right now (as a percentage of their customers). If you wait another few years then you run the risk of pissing off a much larger percentage of your customer base as more customers buy TVs with built-in CableCard support.

I still don't see the FCC sitting idly by on this one if it does pick up steam...


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

moyekj said:


> One tidbit from Cox on the subject of SDV not working with current CableCard and 1-way tuners. The thinking seems to be it's best to do the switch over to SDV sooner than later since the CableCard useage is still fairly low right now (as a percentage of their customers). If you wait another few years then you run the risk of pissing off a much larger percentage of your customer base as more customers buy TVs with built-in CableCard support.


I wonder how much good that will really do them when people buy there new cable card TVS bring them home and find out they still can not get all of the channels they are paying for without a box. They may be a little less upset then having a channel go away, but I bet they are still upset about it.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

segaily said:


> I wonder how much good that will really do them when people buy there new cable card TVS bring them home and find out they still can not get all of the channels they are paying for without a box. They may be a little less upset then having a channel go away, but I bet they are still upset about it.


 Yeah the Cox logic really doesn't make much sense anyway since people will only find out it doesn't work AFTER they have already made the TV purchase. If they really plan on deploying this they would do better to be upfront about it and send notices to all digital cable subscribers warning them about this. From what I've seen though, big headend changes go largely unnanounced. For example the recent digital simulcast deployment was not announced and causes problems with TVGOS (TV Guide listings) as well as other problems and only then did customers find out the causes of the problem.


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## AZrob (Mar 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> No. The S3 will not allow any external input. So the only way you'll be able to record HD is via either ATSC (over the air) or via QAM (cable). Luckily cable companies are required by law to broadcast local HD channels free and clear, so those will never be blocked by this SDV. However cable based HD channels, such as HBO, ShowTime, ESP, etc... could.
> 
> Dan


I understand what ATSC means...but am not exactly sure what you mean when you say "QAM". Does that option imply that a converter box would not work, that only a cablecard could be used to get HD into the S3?

Rob


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

QAM is a modulation standard used by cable for digital channels. The reason I used it, rather then just saying CableCARD, is because the CableCARD is only required if the QAM signal is encrypted. Some stations, like the HD locals, are not encrypted and will not require a CableCARD to be recorded.

Dan


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

First let me state that the everything i know about SDV is from reading threads like this. 

Isn't it the case the at the receiver requesting a channel is not the only one getting that channel - everone in the cableco node gets it, right? So long as the channel is being sent to your house the Tivo could record it? If this is the case couldn't another device send the cableco the request for a switched channel. This could be something that the TiVo talks to (via a usb port) and that in turn talks to the cableco. It wouldn't need to be a tuner itself, just something that told the cable co to send the channel. just a thought based on my very limited knowledge of the subject.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hmmm... interesting idea. However without some sort of standard for SDV communication there isn't really anyway for TiVo to design such an add-on device. And if there were a standard I'm sure they would just build it into the TiVo itself and skip the hassles of an external box.

Dan


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> First let me state that the everything i know about SDV is from reading threads like this.
> 
> Isn't it the case the at the receiver requesting a channel is not the only one getting that channel - everone in the cableco node gets it, right? So long as the channel is being sent to your house the Tivo could record it? If this is the case couldn't another device send the cableco the request for a switched channel. This could be something that the TiVo talks to (via a usb port) and that in turn talks to the cableco. It wouldn't need to be a tuner itself, just something that told the cable co to send the channel. just a thought based on my very limited knowledge of the subject.


 As was mentioned before it depends on the implementation. For example for VOD right now if you have an unencrypted QAM tuner you can actually find and tune to VOD orders from your neighbors (most VOD implementations right now use unencrypted streams). The VOD headend system is dynamic however, so you may be watching RF channel 99, sub-channel 1. Then someone else in the neighborhood orders another VOD program and all of a sudden another sub-channel of 99 is created and the VOD program you were watching is promoted to sub-channel 2.

Anyway point of the above example assuming SDV is implemented in a similar way is that part of the 2-way communications most likely needs to also constantly negotiate the specific RF channel and sub-channel to use, so just having the feed to your node is not necessarily sufficient to be able to tune to a SDV channel. Also keep in mind that unless the headend "knows" you are watching a SDV channel there is nothing preventing it from being switched out at any time once it deems nobody else in the neighborhood needs it. So there needs to be continuous communications to keep the stream active on the switch. Of course a lot of this is just my speculation without knowing specifics of the implementation but certainly a lot of good questions are raised the more one thinks about it.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> As was mentioned before it depends on the implementation.
> (...)
> Anyway point of the above example assuming SDV is implemented in a similar way is that part of the 2-way communications most likely needs to also constantly negotiate the specific RF channel and sub-channel to use, so just having the feed to your node is not necessarily sufficient to be able to tune to a SDV channel.


Bingo.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

moyekj said:


> ....For example the recent digital simulcast deployment....


What is digital simulcast? Piggy-backing channels?


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

What a mess switched channels is.

It's amazing how the government enforces / encourages the cable companies to set standards so that CE manufacturers can make devices that will work *without being crippled*, and then the cable _operators_ go ahead and develop a plan to kill the interoperability..... 

I have been waiting a long time for an S3, and I cringe every time I read this thread


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## PhantomDilbert (Nov 6, 2005)

Okay...I officially hate CableCard. No ComCast...no..CableCard. No...Comcast and CableCard!

To throw another monkey in the wrench...I have a Samsung dcr tv. I got a cable card. I connected a firewire dvr. ALL digital channels are 'copy-never' flagged. The idiots (excuse my french) at Comcast say they can't change it, it's in the hardware...replacing the card won't help.

Independent of one way or two way...there maybe another challenge in the CableCards released by the various providers.

So I pulled out the CableCard and just went direct cable to TV...and voila...sd/hd w/ all 'copy-free' flags. It's too bad this POS dvr won't work w/ the TV Guide On Screen...

Oh series 3 where r u....


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm not a rocket scientist (or a cable engineer... ).. and this may be a rather simplistic view..

But..

The S3 has two things going for it. 

1. USB Ports
2. Cablecard Slots

For all the fancy titling.. a cablecard slot is a LOT like a PCMCIA slot. In fact, cablecard is loosely based on PCMCIA architecture if I remember my reading correctly.. So two things are possible in my view..

The first would be an external USB device of some kind that may function as a necessary two-way DOCSIS enabled communication device. It would require another connection to cable to work.. 

The second would be a cablecard slot device that connected externally to a DOCSIS enabled communications device.

I'm sure there's lots of technical reasons why what I suggest might not work.. but .. it might?

J


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

I'm still really looking forward to a reply from someone at TiVo to confirm how they plan to address the interoperability issue. 

There's a lot of anxiety with some folks here, and this issue seems large enough to potentially kill Series 3 before it launches.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lajohn27 said:


> I'm not a rocket scientist (or a cable engineer... ).. and this may be a rather simplistic view..


That has the same issue as Sirshagg's idea. While technically possible, unless there is some standard for controlling switched channels there will be no way for TiVo to develope such a device.

This is NOT just about the S3 not having the hardware to do switched channels. It's about there not being a standard in place for them to even be capable of doing switched channels. As of right now CableCARD is one way, SDV requires two way communication.

Dan


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Dan:

I was presuming that said 'standard' would be put in place.. but yes.. 

Standards would have to be put in place..
and then the hardware would have to be capable somehow.

J


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

DCIFRTHS said:


> What is digital simulcast? Piggy-backing channels?


 It's the term given to cable companies co-broadcasting in Standard Definition digital some or all channels in the analog lineup. The ultimate goal of this is to eliminate the analog broadcast channels in the cable lineup completely for most/all analog channels since each analog channel takes a full 6MHz channel to itself as opposed to being able to fit ~15 SD digital channels in the same slot. The downside of course is that customers need a set top box or CableCard device capable of decoding the digital channels for each TV in the house.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... interesting idea. However without some sort of standard for SDV communication there isn't really anyway for TiVo to design such an add-on device. And if there were a standard I'm sure they would just build it into the TiVo itself and skip the hassles of an external box.
> 
> Dan


Does there need to be a standard? Couldn't there be a device like my Harmony Remote that I connect to my Internet, tell it who my cable provider is, and it programs this dongle with the codes needed for my MSO.

...Dale


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

lajohn27 said:


> Dan:
> 
> I was presuming that said 'standard' would be put in place.. but yes..
> 
> ...


Hardwarewise, your concept will work. I imagine a plug in module for the CableCard (like the old PCMCIA network cards used), a USB based DOCSIS or other modem, or a device that connects to both, an whatever it is, it will connect to your cable outlet and the tuner's cable input.

As said, the big issue is any standards in the hardware interface, as well as the software.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Sirshagg said:


> First let me state that the everything i know about SDV is from reading threads like this.
> 
> Isn't it the case the at the receiver requesting a channel is not the only one getting that channel - everone in the cableco node gets it, right?


Practically, yes.


> So long as the channel is being sent to your house the Tivo could record it?


If the channel was unencrypted, or your CC is given permission to decrypt it, and the Tivo at least knew how to tune it.



> If this is the case couldn't another device send the cableco the request for a switched channel. This could be something that the TiVo talks to (via a usb port) and that in turn talks to the cableco. It wouldn't need to be a tuner itself, just something that told the cable co to send the channel. just a thought based on my very limited knowledge of the subject.


Discussed earlier, if the channel could stick to the same stream.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

jacksonian said:


> Alright, you guys are way over my head on the technical stuff. Can you break it down for me?


In a nutshell, conventional cable has a bunch of channels available at your cable tuner for it to directly tune.

SDV has all the channels available to a switch, which sends your selected channel to your cable tuner from the headend.

One way to think of it is conventional cable as a cafeteria or buffet, where you can select the food you want right there, without any intervention from restaurant employees. SDV is like a restaurant with wait staff, where you ask them for the food you want, and they bring it to you, the wait staff representing the two way channel required for SDV, VOD and whatever.



> Does this mean that upon release (or very soon thereafter) that I won't be able to use a Series 3 and get all of my channels?


There is that chance.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

I'm with the other people here who have stated that they want ot hear something from Tivo on this subject. Before learning about SDV I was ready to run out and buy at least one series 3 (probably 2) for myself and one for my folks the minute they came out. Now I'd have to seriously reconsider that plan. I suppose it depends on how agressively they are priced. There's no way I'll shell out $800 for something that could be crippled at any time by my cableco (COX) rolling out SDV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Dajad said:


> Does there need to be a standard? Couldn't there be a device like my Harmony Remote that I connect to my Internet, tell it who my cable provider is, and it programs this dongle with the codes needed for my MSO.


From my understanding it has to be in constant communication, so it would have to be a little more high tech then just having the right set of codes. In fact TiVo would probably have to get the proper communication protocols from 3rd parties such as Scientific Atlantic and Motorola, which would probably be damn near impossible since those companies sell their own DVRs and don't reall want to help the competition.

I think the only way we're going to see a fix for this is if the FCC steps in and forces the cable comanies to adopt a standard.

Dan


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> From my understanding it has to be in constant communication, so it would have to be a little more high tech then just having the right set of codes. In fact TiVo would probably have to get the proper communication protocols from 3rd parties such as Scientific Atlantic and Motorola, which would probably be damn near impossible since those companies sell their own DVRs and don't reall want to help the competition.
> 
> Dan


I suspect TiVo's patent win last week is going to make SFA and Motorola a whole lot more friendlier to TiVo. Their boxes are likely to be found as much infringing on TiVo's patents as Dish's box!

...Dale


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dajad said:


> I suspect TiVo's patent win last week is going to make SFA and Motorola a whole lot more friendlier to TiVo.


All well and good ...

Then there's Arroyo, BigBand, Tandberg, C-Cor, Sun, and all the other SDV vendors ... some of which are involded in DVRs and most of which aren't.

Scientific Atlanta and Motorola are embedded in cable because of CA (conditional access). Get outside CA ... you start finding a whole lot more vendors.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Dajad said:


> Does there need to be a standard? Couldn't there be a device like my Harmony Remote that I connect to my Internet, tell it who my cable provider is, and it programs this dongle with the codes needed for my MSO.
> 
> ...Dale


Yes, for the base hardware platform your "dongle", what LaJohn and I envision, to work, since the communicator in the dongle will have to work with your provider, and a certain level of hardware needs to be universal.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

moyekj said:


> It's the term given to cable companies co-broadcasting in Standard Definition digital some or all channels in the analog lineup. ....


Thanks!


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## cdp1276 (Mar 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> This is NOT just about the S3 not having the hardware to do switched channels. It's about there not being a standard in place for them to even be capable of doing switched channels. As of right now CableCARD is one way, SDV requires two way communication.


Has anyone heard the latest on when the CableCard 2.0 standard would be final? I remember hearing about this a few years back and was due this year?


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

cdp1276 said:


> Has anyone heard the latest on when the CableCard 2.0 standard would be final? I remember hearing about this a few years back and was due this year?


I don't know when. But Samsung had its first 2 way CableCard device approved 8/23/2005 including the OCAP middleware. In November they signed up for the Downloadable Conditional Access System (DCAS).

"By accomodating OCAP and DRM technology, DCAS will enable innovative applicaions and service offerings ..."

Panasonic signed up for DCAS by 4/10/2006.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

PhantomDilbert said:


> To throw another monkey in the wrench...I have a Samsung dcr tv. I got a cable card. I connected a firewire dvr. ALL digital channels are 'copy-never' flagged. The idiots (excuse my french) at Comcast say they can't change it, it's in the hardware...replacing the card won't help.


That is a bummer. Copy Never content can not stay on the unit for more than 90 minutes.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

PhantomDilbert said:


> Okay...I officially hate CableCard. No ComCast...no..CableCard. No...Comcast and CableCard!
> 
> To throw another monkey in the wrench...I have a Samsung dcr tv. I got a cable card. I connected a firewire dvr. ALL digital channels are 'copy-never' flagged. The idiots (excuse my french) at Comcast say they can't change it, it's in the hardware...replacing the card won't help.
> 
> ...


Check some of the cablecard threads over in avsforum - pretty sure that your local Comcast is full of it and they have something wrong with the card provisioning.


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## phoebus (Jan 28, 2005)

I would even put up with a STB connected to an S3, but the fact that even this won't work is really depressing! Regarding the potential of CableCard users complaining: Has anyone besides me noticed that most new HDTVs currently in stores do NOT have a CableCard slot anymore. Almost all newer models suddenly don't have that feature. The manufacturers obviously identified this problem a while ago and didn't want to be caught in the crossfire.

I'm afraid TiVo took too long to develop the S3 and will now run into the problem that the new system will stop playing right when it comes out. That won't help their numbers  

Hoping that the TiVo software will improve the Comcast box. Even my wife says she can't imagine TV without TiVo anymore.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes it is very unfortunate. I don't think there will be too many that are aware of this issue willing to fork out money for the S3 knowing that current CableCard technology is on it's way to being obsolete. Even without CableCard the S3 still has some value in that it can record OTA ATSC and analog cable, but becomes much less attractive for sure.

As for Tivo software on Comcast DVR (currently the Motorola DCT64xx & DCT34xx units in most of their markets) remember that there is still a fundamental problem that you cannot upgrade the hard drive on those units since you don't own them. So unless the SATA port is enabled via Tivo software there is no increased storage capacity possible so you are limited to the puny 120G or 160G internal drives currently in those units - for HD recordings that doesn't cut it.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

phoebus said:


> I would even put up with a STB connected to an S3, but the fact that even this won't work is really depressing! Regarding the potential of CableCard users complaining: Has anyone besides me noticed that most new HDTVs currently in stores do NOT have a CableCard slot anymore. ....


I haven't looked at the connections on new TVs. If this is true, then the situation is worse than I thought. I will have to check this out....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

moyekj said:


> Yes it is very unfortunate. I don't think there will be too many that are aware of this issue willing to fork out money for the S3 knowing that current CableCard technology is on it's way to being obsolete. Even without CableCard the S3 still has some value in that it can record OTA ATSC and analog cable, but becomes much less attractive for sure.
> 
> As for Tivo software on Comcast DVR (currently the Motorola DCT64xx & DCT34xx units in most of their markets) remember that there is still a fundamental problem that you cannot upgrade the hard drive on those units since you don't own them. So unless the SATA port is enabled via Tivo software there is no increased storage capacity possible so you are limited to the puny 120G or 160G internal drives currently in those units - for HD recordings that doesn't cut it.


The Moto will have a DCT34xxx with 300 G drive (about 35 hours of HD), see the Moto web sight. Comcast told me their are testing the SATA external port now and plan to offer an external HD for the DCT34xxx by the end of the year, I don't what the price will be if any.
It will hurt if the cable box comes out as the only practical HD DVR in the future with their unlimited warranty, free hardware upgrades, and on sight service. The average HD DVR customer may not want to take a chance of non cable hardware (read TiVo series 3 ) with no guarantee how long it will remain compatible with the cable signal.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

phoebus said:


> Almost all newer models suddenly don't have that feature. The manufacturers obviously identified this problem a while ago and didn't want to be caught in the crossfire.


You are missing the obvious - most people don't hook cable directly up to a TV anymore - they want a DVR.

Why would the TV manufacturers bother putting a cable card slot in the TV when most people are going to use a cable box or DVR anyway?

I've got a cable card slot in my new HD set I'll never use.

But I'll use at least one of them in my new Series 3 ... sometime later this year.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

Wow! Interesting thread. I still don't quite understand the tech being discussed, but I think I understand that as a current NY all digital Cablevision customer (prolly soon to be SDV), the S3 will not be a viable option for me? And there are no known workarounds, since the S3 does not allow for cablebox attachment...
Also am wondering if a channel, such as HBO, is being watched by another TV set (via cablebox) in same household would this overide the sdv? I can live w/o vod, but prefer to keep all others.
If HD is not of concern, what would be the best tivo machine option for someone like me?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

If you don't care about HD then a Series 2 DT should fit in quite nicely.

Dan


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Dan203 said:


> Luckily cable companies are required by law to broadcast local HD channels free and clear, so those will never be blocked by this SDV. However cable based HD channels, such as HBO, ShowTime, ESP, etc... could.
> 
> Dan


Apaprently someone needs to tell COX Cable that because they recently started scrambling the 2 local HD channels that they carry here...


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

phoebus said:


> Has anyone besides me noticed that most new HDTVs currently in stores do NOT have a CableCard slot anymore. Almost all newer models suddenly don't have that feature. The manufacturers obviously identified this problem a while ago and didn't want to be caught in the crossfire.


Where did you get that from?? The vast majority of HDTV's out there right now have CableCard slots, except for some of the smaller sets that don't have digital tuners...


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

It seems to me that if TiVo is unable to build something into their box that allows them to download the codes (like they do program data) that make it so that the TiVo can work with any MSO plant that uses switched broadcasting, then TiVo has a viable legal challenge against all the MSOs that use it because there would seem to be a very strong prima-facie case that the MSOs are thawarting their obligations under law to use the cable-card standard. The mandate was for cablecos to build a system that would allow the consumer to buy the external devices of their choice. The specifics of the cable-card standard was an implementation of the legal requirement but that does NOT change the fact that MSOs were to build a universal standard. If switched broadcasting screws up the universal standard than they are probably in violation of the underlying law and, if they are, TiVo should be able to get an injunction from the courts to stop MSOs from using this new switched broadcasting technology unless the MSOs can provide a dongle or something that will make that interoperable with the cable card.

But, that still sucks because the last thing I want is to see TiVo have to spend MORE years in court to force the MSOs to comply with the law!

...Dale


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> If you don't care about HD then a Series 2 DT should fit in quite nicely.
> Dan


Since I'm fully digital (only receive 8 watched analog channels) my _main_ interest in the S3 (and prior non interest in S2DT) was for the ability to record 2 digital channels at the same time. With the Cable card concerns, will this be a possibilty with the S3?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Todd said:


> Apaprently someone needs to tell COX Cable that because they recently started scrambling the 2 local HD channels that they carry here...


So, call them up and complain and see what they say.

If they don't say "Gee, we're sorry; we'll fix that right away", file a complaint with the FCC (and mention to the Cox CSR that they should open up a trouble ticket)


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Todd said:


> Apaprently someone needs to tell COX Cable that because they recently started scrambling the 2 local HD channels that they carry here...


 I'm with Cox in Orange County, CA and they have been very careful to make sure local broadcast channels (HD and SD digital simulcast) are unencrypted over cable. In fact I have seen some lapses for channels that should be encrypted sometimes are not - we had 2-3 months of unencrypted TNT-HD.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

Stylin said:


> Wow! Interesting thread. I still don't quite understand the tech being discussed, but I think I understand that as a current NY all digital Cablevision customer (prolly soon to be SDV), the S3 will not be a viable option for me? And there are no known workarounds, since the S3 does not allow for cablebox attachment...
> Also am wondering if a channel, such as HBO, is being watched by another TV set (via cablebox) in same household would this overide the sdv? I can live w/o vod, but prefer to keep all others.
> If HD is not of concern, what would be the best tivo machine option for someone like me?


Well, I'm less worried about SDV now. I spoke with a pretty knowledgeable Cablevision Tech and he explained that the plan for SDV channels is for the foreign language channels. Currently there are over 35 on my package - but I've already deleted them from my TiVo channel lineup. He said that they would/could not put popular cable channels like COM, HBO, SHO etc on SDV, as it would defeat the purpose of saving bandwith, but the foreign channels including the Espanol package, tho included with Basic Digital, are only watched by a handful of subscribers who are must subscribe to Basic Digital to get the programming. Basically, SDV will affect TiVo subscribers that watch foreign language channels.  According to CV Tech, the S3 will not work for them. The S2DT will be the highest upgrade, tho limited b/c anyone who is subject to SDV, may soon be subject to an "all digital/limited analog" channel lineup.

S3 here I come!!


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

While I'm sure this has already been answered, I can't find it, so I'll ask again. Will you need to have two cable cards in the S3 for dual tuner capability? And, even though the cable cards today don't support Pay per view/on demand, will the S3 support a cable card that does have that feature once they do become available. 

I was pretty excited about the S3 - HD is awesome - but I'm getting the feeling that it will be obsolete before its even released. MRV and the ability to upgrade the hard drive are what sold me on Tivo, and I hate the idea of going to the Cable DVR.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

I would like to know the answer to your first question as well. It would seem to me that TiVo would know that it needs to use a Cable Card for certain programming like needing to use the cable box on the S2DT, so I would think one Cable Card would work in a dual tuner setup.

As far as Cable Card 2.0 support, since the spec isn't finalized it has been said the S3 will not support Cable Card 2.0 functions. Now it has been said the cable card 2.0 will be backwards compatible which, I believe, means you could use the card in the S3 which would lead me to believe TiVo could update their software to support Cable Card 2.0.

As far as I know Cable Card 2.0 support is up in the air since the Cable Card 2.0 spec isn't finalized, so any answer you get will be purely speculation.


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## HIHZia (Nov 3, 2004)

Todd said:


> Apaprently someone needs to tell COX Cable that because they recently started scrambling the 2 local HD channels that they carry here...


Cox in our market doesn't carry the Fox HD because Sinclair wants Cox to PAY THEM to do it. So I don't think it's as clear cut as "must carry by law".


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

lajohn27 said:


> The S3 has two things going for it.
> 
> 1. USB Ports
> 2. Cablecard Slots
> ...


The major problem with this is that there are no "standards" for this two-way communication as it pertains to switching at the node. Assuming that the cable companies will not standardize this (and they won't, unless they are forced by the FCC), Tivo would have to make an external two-way communication device that can handle it, and will probably need to make one for every cable provider. There is no reason that Tivo would do this except to put their company further into debt.

Remember, there is no reason to assume that the two-way communcation complies with DOCSIS standards. Cable companies hate standards. Standards mean that you can get their cable and use an S3, or some other box that you DON'T PAY THEM FOR. They want to make things hard for everyone who doesn't use THEIR STB and services.

Why the heck would they force you to pay an installation charge for CABLE CARDS? Is it that cable cards are difficult to install? NUH UH. It's because they want your money, and they want you to think that everything you ask for requires an installation by one of their grubby-handed techs*.

I hate the fact that I am moving away from Cablevision to a Comcast area. Right now I live 0.4 (!!!) miles from a cablevision store, and I can just go there whenever I feel like it, and say "I WANT AN HD DVR." They give it to me, I walk out. End of transaction, no "home visit."

When they begin implementing switching at the head-end or node, they will go to great lengths to make SURE it doesn't work with your cablecard-compatible box / TV. Why? So they can rent to you their STBs. Heck, maybe they will sell "two way communication" adapters.

You can count on one thing - they won't make it easy for you until it's law or it's affecting their bottom line. And good luck getting everyone in your neighborhood to give up their cable packages in protest.

X

* - not all techs from the cable company have grubby hands. some of them are quite competent, but they are the rarity. It's a crapshoot whether you'll get a good one when you get your install. Good luck.


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

puckettcg said:


> While I'm sure this has already been answered, I can't find it, so I'll ask again. Will you need to have two cable cards in the S3 for dual tuner capability? And, even though the cable cards today don't support Pay per view/on demand, will the S3 support a cable card that does have that feature once they do become available.
> 
> I was pretty excited about the S3 - HD is awesome - but I'm getting the feeling that it will be obsolete before its even released. MRV and the ability to upgrade the hard drive are what sold me on Tivo, and I hate the idea of going to the Cable DVR.


The S3 will need two single stream cablecards (Version 1.0) or one multistream cablecard in order to record two shows at once. With regards to PPV/OnDemand, these services will not be available to S3 owners. These services require two way communication between the STB and MSO. This functionality is being designed by CableLabs (CableCard 2.0), but has not been finalized. Becuase of this, the S3 will not be CC2.0 compatible upon release. Only time will tell if the first gerenation S3 will be upgradeable to CC2.0 specifications.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

JohnTivo said:


> The S3 will need two single stream cablecards (Version 1.0) or one multistream cablecard in order to record two shows at once.


What keeps the TiVo from recording one OTA broadcast and one digital cable channel if you only have one cable card (or one analog cable channel and one digital cable channel OR one non-encrypted digital cable channel and one encrypted digital cable channel)?

I completely understand why you would need two cable cards or one multistream card if you want to record two encrypted digital cable channels, but what keeps the S3 from operating like an S2 (having the ability to record one analog channel and one digital channel)?


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

terryfoster said:


> What keeps the TiVo from recording one OTA broadcast and one digital cable channel if you only have one cable card (or one analog cable channel and one digital cable channel OR one non-encrypted digital cable channel and one encrypted digital cable channel)?


If the S3 works like the HR10-250, then the number of active OTA tuner's is determined by the Type/# of cablecards installed. 1 CableCard 1.0 + OTA feed = 1 Virtual Tuner. 2 CableCard 1.0 + OTA feed = 2 virtual tuners. 1 Multistream CableCard + OTA feed = 2 virtual tuners.


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## terryfoster (Jul 21, 2003)

JohnTivo said:


> If the S3 works like the HR10-250, then the number of active OTA tuner's is determined by the Type/# of cablecards installed. 1 CableCard 1.0 + OTA feed = 1 Virtual Tuner. 2 CableCard 1.0 + OTA feed = 2 virtual tuners. 1 Multistream CableCard + OTA feed = 2 virtual tuners.


To me, this assumption seems unlikely with the S2DT functionality now on the playing field.

Since the S2DT can record two analog cable channels at the same time I would assume the S3 could do the same. Also since the S2DT can record one analog cable channel and one digital cable channel (provided you have a cable box) I would assume the S3 could do something along those lines. In other words, the S2DT seems to be able to record from two video sources independently. I would highly assume the S3 can record two OTA stations independently.

So, it would seem, unless somebody with intimate knowledge of the S3 can speak on the subject, it would appear that either assumption (S3 will work like a HR10-250 or S3 will work like a S2DT) are both as likely to be correct.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It has already been said that with one single stream CableCARD installed you will get asymetrical tuners just like the S2DT. Meaning you'll be able to record any two "in the clear" channels, but only one encrypted channel.

Dan


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

classicX said:


> ... Why the heck would they force you to pay an installation charge for CABLE CARDS? Is it that cable cards are difficult to install? NUH UH. It's because they want your money, and they want you to think that everything you ask for requires an installation by one of their grubby-handed techs*.


Cablevision requires a truck roll, and charges for the installation of Cable Cards.



classicX said:


> ... I hate the fact that I am moving away from Cablevision to a Comcast area. Right now I live 0.4 (!!!) miles from a cablevision store, and I can just go there whenever I feel like it, and say "I WANT AN HD DVR." They give it to me, I walk out. End of transaction, no "home visit." ...


When the HD STBs and HD DVR STBs were first introduced, the also required a truck roll / installation charge.

I am very happy with my Cablevision service (including internet access), but I don't like the fact that I have to pay for services that I can perform myself.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Meaning you'll be able to record any two "in the clear" channels, but only one encrypted channel.
> Dan


Will the Cablecard deencrpt all the channels? Or are the "in the clear" channels only the ones that are currently analog in the channel lineup?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The unit will be able to tune any analog, ATSC or QAM channel without the need for a CableCARD provided the channel is not encrypted. This means that your local HD channels, which are required to be broadcast over cable unencrypted, will be able to be tuned without a CableCARD. If your lucky you might get a few other unencrypted channels as well.

Dan


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks Dan. I think it may suck to be me  . My outlook isn't looking too good. I have no interest in HDTV. Don't think I'll be purchasing a set for at least another yr or 2. My intense interest in S3 is for dual digital channel recording. 
I'll call CV tomorrow and find out what if any channels will be unencrypted, while using cablecard. Ughhhhh.....


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The unit will be able to tune any analog, ATSC or QAM channel without the need for a CableCARD provided the channel is not encrypted. This means that your local HD channels, which are required to be broadcast over cable unencrypted, will be able to be tuned without a CableCARD. If your lucky you might get a few other unencrypted channels as well.
> 
> Dan


 The big un-answered question is without the use of CableCard for all those unencrypted QAM digital channels without PSIP information I hope there will be an option to edit channel names similar to how the Sony DVR allows to make them conform to a channel guide lineup. I know it's been mentioned before that one can get Tivo to offer up a custom lineup but from what I've seen these channels tend to sometimes move around in RF frequency and especially in sub-channel. I have an unencrypted QAM tuner now and as new channels are added and new services rolled out things can change quite often (on a weekly basis).


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Stylin said:


> Thanks Dan. I think it may suck to be me  . My outlook isn't looking too good. I have no interest in HDTV. Don't think I'll be purchasing a set for at least another yr or 2. My intense interest in S3 is for dual digital channel recording.
> I'll call CV tomorrow and find out what if any channels will be unencrypted, while using cablecard. Ughhhhh.....


After reading your posts, I couldn't ascertain if you are you planning on using one, two or no cable card(s). Would you please clarify for me?


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> After reading your posts, I couldn't ascertain if you are you planning on using one, two or no cable card(s). Would you please clarify for me?


Guys, pls excuse my n00biness - I'm learning a lot of new tech and terms in a short space of time.
Using more than 1 cablecard is an option? I guess if the tv was equipped to take the other one? 
My tv has no cablecard input it is a standard regular tv. Currently it is hooked up to a cable box from CV. My channel lineup is 97% digital. 
I was planning on getting an S3, and using CV's cablecard with it to be able to record 2 digital channels at the same time. That's all I really want to be able to do for the moment. HDTV is not at all a priority for me, and I have no plans on upgrading my tv set soon...


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

Stylin said:


> Guys, pls excuse my n00biness - I'm learning a lot of new tech and terms in a short space of time.
> Using more than 1 cablecard is an option? I guess if the tv was equipped to take the other one?
> My tv has no cablecard input it is a standard regular tv. Currently it is hooked up to a cable box from CV. My channel lineup is 97% digital.
> I was planning on getting an S3, and using CV's cablecard with it to be able to record 2 digital channels at the same time. That's all I really want to be able to do for the moment. HDTV is not at all a priority for me, and I have no plans on upgrading my tv set soon...


Glad you are learning  The information you just posted is what I wanted to know. I asked because it seemed that you were counting out the S3 when it will do exactly what you want it to with the exception of tuning in switched video broadcasts. I believe you already stated that's not a problem for you.

The S3 has the capability of using two Cable Cards, at the same time, because it has two cable card slots built in. This will allow you to record two channels at once. The channels can be either digital, analog or encrypted (as long as you subscribe to the encrypted channel) if you use two cable cards.

Currently, Cablevision is charging $1.25 per cable card, but they require you to schedule a service call to have them installed. In my area, I think they charge around $40.00 for the service call.

I hope this information helps.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Stylin said:


> Guys, pls excuse my n00biness - I'm learning a lot of new tech and terms in a short space of time.
> Using more than 1 cablecard is an option? I guess if the tv was equipped to take the other one?


That's where you're confused. The CableCARD(s) go in the TiVo itself, not your TV.

THe difference between these units, and the DirecTV HD unit people are comparing them to, is that on the DirecTV units if you only had one DirecTV tuner active the unit would act like a single tuner box for all inputs even ATSC. The S3 units actually have asymetrical abilities, so if you install only one CableCARD you will only be able to record one encrypted channel, but you still be able to record two unencrypted channels.

Dan


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## slocko (Mar 5, 2004)

I was looking forward to an S3, but now I see that I should wait and see how people are faring with my particular cable provider before jumping in.

Even so, it's worrisome that in the future it might stop working because some new switching technology is implemented.



Dan203 said:


> That's where you're confused. The CableCARD(s) go in the TiVo itself, not your TV.
> 
> THe difference between these units, and the DirecTV HD unit people are comparing them to, is that on the DirecTV units if you only had one DirecTV tuner active the unit would act like a single tuner box for all inputs even ATSC. The S3 units actually have asymetrical abilities, so if you install only one CableCARD you will only be able to record one encrypted channel, but you still be able to record two unencrypted channels.
> 
> Dan


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Like someone posted above, if switched digital does ever catch on it will be used for the less popular channels, so it probably wont effect you anyway. And if for some reason it does you can just sell the S3 and convert to your cable companies DVR, which is your only option right now anyway.

Dan


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## Rcam10 (Apr 13, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> Like someone posted above, if switched digital does ever catch on it will be used for the less popular channels, so it probably wont effect you anyway. And if for some reason it does you can just sell the S3 and convert to your cable companies DVR, which is your only option right now anyway.
> 
> Dan


Well that could very well be true, but again TWC in SC where its a statewide thing, there are at least 3 HD channels that are switched. I'm not sure exactly how many, but I know one reason they were able to add the last HD channel so fast, was because of that.

Also, listening to them talk, it sounds like any future HD channels will be also. All the analog channels they are running digital is switched. So thats a little too much for me to lose if I end up trying cable there.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Switched digital only works if the channels being switched are not always being watched. As HDTVs start to catch on more and more people will be watching the HD channels and the benifit of them being switched is going to be lost. Once that happens they'll probably move the HD channels away from being switched.

That being said if I were in your area I would be worried as well. The big draw of the S3 is the ability to record HD, and if not all of them are available to the S3 it would really limit it's apeal. Unfortunately there is nothing TiVo can do to remedy this issue as it's a simple lack of standards causing it in the first place. All I could suggest is you write a letter to the FCC and express your concern as to how switched digital is breaking CableCARDs original intent. Maybe if enough of us do that they'll put a stop to it before it becomes more wide spread. (or at the very least require them to develope a simple standard that 3rd parties could use to make their devices SDV compatible)

Dan


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

Edit Ok Dan beat me to saying this by 2 minutes, but I said almost the same thing back near the start of the thread.

It makes sense at this point that cable would be seeing a very good bandwidth savings with HD channels on switched digital. I however think long term they will see less and less savings. At the moment I am sure they have a low percentage of HD customers so HD channels are not watched much. As HD TVs become more and more widespread those channels will be much more frequently tuned and the savings from those channels will drop dramatically. At some point it will not make sense to have popular HD channels on switched digital.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just sent a letter to the chairman of the FCC complaining about switched digital. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Who knows maybe if they hear concern from enough citizens they'll take some action to remedy the problem. Even if it's somethign incompatible with the Series 3, like forcing them to speed up the CableCARD 2.0 process, it'll be benificial to us all in the long run.

Dan


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I just sent a letter to the chairman of the FCC complaining about switched digital. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Who knows maybe if they hear concern from enough citizens they'll take some action to remedy the problem. Even if it's somethign incompatible with the Series 3, like forcing them to speed up the CableCARD 2.0 process, it'll be benificial to us all in the long run.
> 
> Dan


Good idea, I just sent a message as well.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I just sent a letter to the chairman of the FCC complaining about switched digital. I encourage everyone else to do the same.


A better place to comment would be FCC Docket 97-80 (Commercial Availability of Navigation Devices). This is the main FCC preceeding regarding digital cable ready devices. You can submit a comment here:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/upload_v2.cgi

SDV is currently being examined as part of the preceeding.

For example, on May 11th Time Warner met with the FCC to discuss SDV and counter CEA arguments from earlier this year that SDV contravened MSO UDCP support (as part of Docket 97-80):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518335714

Anyway, if you want to be heard by the FCC on SDV and digital cable ready products ... FCC Docket 97-80 would be the (best) place to do it.

You can also catch up on what cable and the CEA are saying about SDV by going here and searching for preceeding 97-80 (along with a whole bunch of other CableCard related issues):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi


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## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

Thanks for the links. I fired off a comment to the FCC.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

I also want to say thank you for the links. I just posted this comment. 

I am concerned about the use of switched digital video (SDV) by some cable companies and its impact on unidirectional cable ready products (UDCPs). I am particularly troubled by Time Warners comments filed on May 11th. It is my understanding that Time Warner has been placing some High Definition channels on SDV. While their statement that nearly all the channels they are placing on SDV would still be available to UDCP users may be technically correct I believe it to be highly misleading. By placing a High Definition channels on SDV and leaving the standard Definition version of that channel available to UDCPs they are leaving the UDCPs at a significant disadvantage. I am especially troubled by this practice because I believe that the consumers most likely to be purchasing UDCPs are the same ones who are most likely to be interested in High Definition channels. I am very concerned that the placing of High Definition channels on SDV will have a chilling effect on the design and manufacture of high end UDCPs, because of the disadvantage these devices will face when compared to a cable box provided by the cable company.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

I also want to thank you for the links. I sent in my comments


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

I sent my comments in.

I found this while searching:


> TWC CTO Mike LaJoie said his company has SDV deployed in Austin; Columbia, SC; and a third unannounced system. He said it will be in four to six systems next year and that the bandwidth savings thus far have exceeded 50 percent.


Seems to me if you are going to save 50% of the bandwidth, much more than 50% of your channels need to be SDV.

Also from same article:


> A trail by Time Warner Cable in Austin, TX, found that only 45 out of 170 channels were being simultaneously viewed in a service group of 1,000 homes. The rest of the 125 channels occupied spectrum while being unused by subscribers.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

ADent said:


> Seems to me if you are going to save 50% of the bandwidth, much more than 50% of your channels need to be SDV.
> 
> :


The problem with that is that the HD channels take up a lot more bandwidth then a standard digital channel so you get a lot of savings at the moment by putting the HD channels on SDV.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Tell me something. Do we know for a fact that there is no way that a future Cable Card can be designed/engineered to accept SDV and feed it into the S3 (or any other CC device) in a usable form? 

Is this impossible for some reason?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't think it's impossible for them to develope some way to make SDV compatible with current CableCARD devices, but it would require special hardware. And cable companies aren't going to invest in the development and deployment of that hardware unless they're required to by the FCC.

Dan


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

It may be possible to make current cable cards tune and display channel info for a switched digital channel. The problem is there would be no way for a current gen cable card to request a channel or tell the cable company that a channel is being watched. 

This means that the best a current cable card could do would be to let you watch a switched digital channel as long as someone on your cable node with a cable box was watching the channel. As soon as they changed channels your channel might change as well.


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Glad you are learning  The information you just posted is what I wanted to know. I asked because it seemed that you were counting out the S3 when it will do exactly what you want it to with the exception of tuning in switched video broadcasts. I believe you already stated that's not a problem for you.
> 
> The S3 has the capability of using two Cable Cards, at the same time, because it has two cable card slots built in. This will allow you to record two channels at once. The channels can be either digital, analog or encrypted (as long as you subscribe to the encrypted channel) if you use two cable cards.
> 
> ...


Ty (also Dan). Yes, it helped VERY much - I get it now  . I did not know S3 could handle 2 one way 1.0 cablecards. I'm going to have to do the math and weigh the pros/cons once the S3 is released as it may be more economical for me just keep using the cablevision box and add a 2nd S2. Or maybe just use Cablevision dvr in addition to my current S2.
In my situation HD is not my biggest concern (yet), and hopefully SDV will truly only be the foreign channels. I suspect that HD will not be popular in my neighborhood for a while. There prolly will only be a handful utilizing HD (for the past year there have only been 4 wireless networks - mine being 1 of the 1st). But having said that I'm still going to send my comments regarding SDV and UDCP to FCC. I think the circumventing tactics the Cable Co's are using is deplorable.


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

Does anyone know what Time Warner's plans are to move additional channels to switched digital video (SDV)? I've already lost half my HBO channels to SDV and while I can easily live without on-Demand and PPV services losing too many digital & HD channels to SDV is an S3 deal-killer for me.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

I think it depends completely on your local affiliate. I've talked with the president of my local TWC and he said they had no plans to put any HD on SDV, but he couldn't guarantee that. He said specifically that they were targeting channels with "lower viewership" but said they did not have a specific roadmap or plan for which channels would go SDV.


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

Having experienced the difficulties/frustrations associated with OCAP 1.0, I'm surprised that any manufacturer who builds a DCR device today doesn't somehow integrate forward compatibility with OCAP 2.0. I'd like to upgrade to a 1080p display w/TiVo Series 3 but I'm afraid I'll get burned by Time Warner during the next year or two.

Too bad FiOS TV isnt available in my area yet. My impression is Verizon has no plans or need to implement SDV with their fiber based network.


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## jacksonian (Nov 3, 2003)

Yeah, I agree. But I just decided I'd take the leap and if SDV made my S3 non-functional, then I'd just sell it and wait for an S4.


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## optivity (Sep 18, 2006)

jacksonian said:


> Yeah, I agree. But I just decided I'd take the leap and if SDV made my S3 non-functional, then I'd just sell it and wait for an S4.


I've spent enough money on this hobby for the time being anyway. The "next" time I upgrade my home theater system I'll do it right and make sure the content/CATV providers can't "obsolete" my DVR because of their CP authorization protocol or network design.

At this point I feel it's better waiting until DCR devices support OCAP 2.0 before upgrading to wish-list items like: a 65" 1080p PDP or SED TV/monitor, a HD PVR/DVR, both HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players,  an external tuner/scaler or whatever else happens to tickle my fancy.


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