# The Tivo Mini lives....



## dave13077

Tivo Mini name confirmed.

http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/tivo-to-deliver-advanced-television-for-gci-nasdaq-tivo-0921558


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## compnurd

dave13077 said:


> Tivo Mini name confirmed.
> 
> http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/tivo-to-deliver-advanced-television-for-gci-nasdaq-tivo-0921558


Cool. Now we just need a price and a release date!


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## dave13077

compnurd said:


> Cool. Now we just need a price and a release date!


and a cool contest so I am allowed to buy one...


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## compnurd

dave13077 said:


> and a cool contest so I am allowed to buy one...


LOL yup!


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## Tony Chick

Hopefully it will be a similar price to Roku or Apple TV and not have a monthly subscription cost


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## moyekj

Monthly subscription = deal breaker for me
Still need to know exactly how the tuner stealing for live TV is going to work. We heard before it was at least initially only going to work with Elite/XL4 units as hosts, at least for live TV functionality. Hopefully there will be option for no live TV so can be used for streaming and Netflix, etc. without live TV option stealing a tuner, and thus can work in conjunction with any series 4 hardware.


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## sbiller

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-08/upcoming-tivo-ip-stb-christened-mini/


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## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> Monthly subscription = deal breaker for me
> Still need to know exactly how the tuner stealing for live TV is going to work. We heard before it was at least initially only going to work with Elite/XL4 units as hosts, at least for live TV functionality. Hopefully there will be option for no live TV so can be used for streaming and Netflix, etc. without live TV option stealing a tuner, and thus can work in conjunction with any series 4 hardware.


For me, I think greater than a $5 monthly subscription might be a deal breaker for me.(Although I say that, realistically I will probably get one no matter what they price it)

Just switching out my one, two tuner, Premiere will save me $4 a month in cable card fees. That Premiere will then be used for OTA only. And I'll also use it to transfer content to watch when I carry the box to my GFs house when I visit.


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## daveak

I live in the GCI area and use them for internet and phone. I am OTA, but this looks interesting - compelling enough to attach myself to the cable cord once again? Not so sure.


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## shwru980r

I think if Tivo sells the IP-STB separately, then most of the sales will be to replace a second premiere and there won&#8217;t be any gain in revenue unless they charge a high price for the IP-STB.

I could see them offering a discount on the IP-STB bundled with the purchase of a new XL4.

I also think they are going to have to register the IP-STB on the customer&#8217;s account to restrict the streaming to only the Tivos on the customer&#8217;s account. I think Tivo is going to want to get paid some kind of additional fee for another device on the customer&#8217;s account.


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## BigJimOutlaw

At least initially, the Mini is effectively only an XL4 accessory anyway, so bundling won't really be necessary. But I could see them doing bundle deals too, sure.

There will be some cannibalization of 2-tuner DVRs, but I think it's a net gain for them because I believe many more installations will go towards extending Tivo's reach in the house where Tivo was not able to access before. Many or most people aren't willing to invest another $500 or more in DVRs for each of those secondary and tertiary TVs. It's also a net gain since the MSOs will take a rental fee for it. It won't totally blow the lid off their financials either way, but this makes their story attractive to their MSO partners, which is a benefit to them, as the above GCI story shows.

The retail service fee, however, is completely up in the air. My anally-pulled hunch is that there won't be additional fees for the retail box, but we'll have to keep waiting to find out. (Sucks, I hate waiting. )


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## h2oskierc

The more important questions are, when does it hit mass market, and will it work with my plain old regular Tivo premiere? You know, the two tuner one...


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## lillevig

h2oskierc said:


> The more important questions are, when does it hit mass market, and will it work with my plain old regular Tivo premiere? You know, the two tuner one...


That's so last decade....


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## h2oskierc

lillevig said:


> That's so last decade....


  LOL


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## BigJimOutlaw

h2oskierc said:


> The more important questions are, when does it hit mass market, and will it work with my plain old regular Tivo premiere? You know, the two tuner one...


The early indication is that it won't entirely work with 2-tuner Premieres on day 1. The early software design (as of 3 months ago) had the Mini hijack a DVR tuner for live TV streaming, but it would not release it. So a 4-tuner DVR effectively becomes a 3-tuner DVR. And so they are apparently blocking it from working with 2-tuner DVRs until this is resolved with a software update, because they believe having a 1-tuner DVR in this day and age is a sucky experience.

It will stream recordings from 2-tuner Tivos on the network. But an Elite/4/XL4 is still mandatory for setup.

It's POSSIBLE they've changed this setup since then, but I wouldn't count on it until we hear otherwise.


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## lillevig

BigJimOutlaw said:


> But an Elite/XL4 is still mandatory for setup.


How about the new P4 (XL-Lite)?


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## BigJimOutlaw

Oops, yes the P4 should work too. Updated my post.


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## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> At least initially, the Mini is effectively only an XL4 accessory anyway, so bundling won't really be necessary.


Why would it be an accessory only for the XL4? It shouldn't matter how many tuners or what the size of the hard drive.



> There will be some cannibalization of 2-tuner DVRs,


In my case, no, because I would not buy another TiVo just for my occasional bedroom use. But a reasonably priced, subscription-free mini? I might do that



> but I think it's a net gain for them because I believe many more installations will go towards extending Tivo's reach in the house where Tivo was not able to access before.


Exactly. It makes the TiVo solution more competitive and more compelling.



> The retail service fee, however, is completely up in the air. My anally-pulled hunch is that there won't be additional fees for the retail box, but we'll have to keep waiting to find out. (Sucks, I hate waiting. )


If there is ANY fee, I am 100% not interested.


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## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The early indication is that it won't entirely work with 2-tuner Premieres on day 1. The early software design (as of 3 months ago) had the Mini hijack a DVR tuner for live TV streaming, but it would not release it. So a 4-tuner DVR effectively becomes a 3-tuner DVR. And so they are apparently blocking it from working with 2-tuner DVRs until this is resolved with a software update, because they believe having a 1-tuner DVR in this day and age is a sucky experience.
> 
> It will stream recordings from 2-tuner Tivos on the network. But an Elite/4/XL4 is still mandatory for setup.
> 
> It's POSSIBLE they've changed this setup since then, but I wouldn't count on it until we hear otherwise.


I think that is just incredibly stupid. I *never* watch live TV. And I live alone. So why should it matter how many tuners the DVR has?


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## Test

I don't think there will be a monthly fee. How could there be? The fee is for guide data, if you're using this to stream/watch live/record from another TiVo why wouldn't it use that guide data?

That's just my opinion, I just don't think they could justify it. Right now we can setup recordings from the mobile apps and pretty soon we'll be able to stream to it. Same idea.


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## BigJimOutlaw

crxssi said:


> I think that is just incredibly stupid. I *never* watch live TV. And I live alone. So why should it matter how many tuners the DVR has?


Not sure if you're asking rhetorically or not, but if not, I tried to explain their logic in the previous post. I understand what you're saying completely though. I kind of wish they'd say "Live TV streaming coming soon" and release it to everybody instead of cramming in a half-baked solution before it's ready, but that was the state of things the last time we've gotten any info.


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## magnus

Tivo Mini ... sounds like they will soon be Apple. Just a matter of time.


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## don129

Looks interesting


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## LifeIsABeach

I have the RCN version of the TiVo Q as well as what they call a Preview box. Not sure if this is what they are now calling the Mini, but if it is:

1. The Q has 4 tuners. The Preview has its own tuner. However, you cannot pause, rewind, etc live tv on it. There is no buffer on the Preview. You also cannot see the 4 tuners on the Q (unless they are recording since they will then be in your My Shows list).

2. For some reason you cannot set something to record on the Preview and have it record on the Q. It can only be done on the Q. I downloaded the TiVo app on my Kindle Fire so that if I am watching the Preview and see something I want to record I can do it there.

At the beginning of the summer someone on here said these issues would be fixed by an end-of-summer update. Well, I got the update and they have not been fixed. They also added an error message if you try to hit pause on the Preview saying this is not availble in live tv which makes me think it may never work. The only things in the "update" were changes to the hd menus which I don't use because they are so slow and for some reason they took the seconds off the back-door onscreen clock and added an am/pm indicator.

Hopefully the Mini will be an improved version of the Preview and not have these problems.


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## tivoknucklehead

is this device more like a slingcatcher or a slingbox?
can I stream my Tivo shows to my ipad outside my home like I can with my slingbox, or only inside my home like my slingcatcher?


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## aaronwt

LifeIsABeach said:


> I have the RCN version of the TiVo Q as well as what they call a Preview box. Not sure if this is what they are now calling the Mini, but if it is:
> 
> 1. The Q has 4 tuners. The Preview has its own tuner. However, you cannot pause, rewind, etc live tv on it. There is no buffer on the Preview. You also cannot see the 4 tuners on the Q (unless they are recording since they will then be in your My Shows list).
> 
> 2. For some reason you cannot set something to record on the Preview and have it record on the Q. It can only be done on the Q. I downloaded the TiVo app on my Kindle Fire so that if I am watching the Preview and see something I want to record I can do it there.
> 
> At the beginning of the summer someone on here said these issues would be fixed by an end-of-summer update. Well, I got the update and they have not been fixed. They also added an error message if you try to hit pause on the Preview saying this is not availble in live tv which makes me think it may never work. The only things in the "update" were changes to the hd menus which I don't use because they are so slow and for some reason they took the seconds off the back-door onscreen clock and added an am/pm indicator.
> 
> Hopefully the Mini will be an improved version of the Preview and not have these problems.


The Preview is a different box than the Mini. The Mini should replace the Preview since the Mini will be a lower cost box. There is no cable card or tuner on the mini.


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## BigJimOutlaw

tivoknucklehead said:


> is this device more like a slingcatcher or a slingbox?
> can I stream my Tivo shows to my ipad outside my home like I can with my slingbox, or only inside my home like my slingcatcher?


The Tivo Mini will stream content to televisions.

The Tivo Stream (a different product) will stream content to portable devices, but not outside the house.


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## BigJimOutlaw

LifeIsABeach said:


> I have the RCN version of the TiVo Q as well as what they call a Preview box. Not sure if this is what they are now calling the Mini, but if it is:
> 
> -snip-
> 
> 2. For some reason you cannot set something to record on the Preview and have it record on the Q. It can only be done on the Q. I downloaded the TiVo app on my Kindle Fire so that if I am watching the Preview and see something I want to record I can do it there.
> 
> At the beginning of the summer someone on here said these issues would be fixed by an end-of-summer update. Well, I got the update and they have not been fixed.


The Preview is different, as aaron explained. The Mini is strictly a streaming device, while the Preview is a full-blown non-recording STB.

The software update RCN customers just received was actually the spring update we got in May, so you were a little behind us. The summer/fall update yet to come will let the Preview (and the upcoming Mini) interact more with the Q/Elite/P4/XL4. You'll most likely get that update much more quickly than you got the spring update.


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## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Tivo Mini will stream content to televisions.
> 
> The Tivo Stream (a different product) will stream content to portable devices, but not outside the house.


But I believe you must have a TiVo Stream to use the TiVo mini, no? At least, that would make sense to me. They they would incorporate the TiVo Stream functionality in the next TiVo (Series 5?)

To me, the Preview is a ridiculous device that was doomed to fail. It is far too complex and most TiVo owners have no interest in watching "live TV", so why would they want to pay a lot of extra up-front AND monthly costs for a local, non-recording tuner?


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## sbiller

crxssi said:


> But I believe you must have a TiVo Stream to use the TiVo mini, no? At least, that would make sense to me. They they would incorporate the TiVo Stream functionality in the next TiVo (Series 5?)
> 
> To me, the Preview is a ridiculous device that was doomed to fail. It is far too complex and most TiVo owners have no interest in watching "live TV", so why would they want to pay a lot of extra up-front AND monthly costs for a local, non-recording tuner?


The TiVo Stream is not required for the Mini. The Mini essentially provides nearly the same functionality as the Preview at a much lower price point without the hassle of CableCARD. The Mini can decode MPEG-2 and H.264 so the Stream is not required for its transcoding capabilities.


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## nrc

aaronwt said:


> The Preview is a different box than the Mini. The Mini should replace the Preview since the Mini will be a lower cost box. There is no cable card or tuner on the mini.


Whether the Mini replaces the Preview remains to be seen. It will depend on what the MSOs want. Not all MSOs may want to have the Mini claiming a tuner.


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## nrc

crxssi said:


> To me, the Preview is a ridiculous device that was doomed to fail. It is far too complex and most TiVo owners have no interest in watching "live TV", so why would they want to pay a lot of extra up-front AND monthly costs for a local, non-recording tuner?


The Preview wasn't created for TiVo owners. It was created for cable companies that wanted such a device. Having a tuner in the device eliminates the need to dedicate a tuner from the Q. I suspect some MSOs will stick with the Preview until that limitation is removed from the Mini.


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## tomhorsley

dave13077 said:


> Tivo Mini name confirmed.
> 
> http://pr.tivo.com/press-releases/tivo-to-deliver-advanced-television-for-gci-nasdaq-tivo-0921558


But the problem is you die the death of 1000 marketing jargon phrases before you get far enough into that press release to find any actualy information .


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## crxssi

nrc said:


> Whether the Mini replaces the Preview remains to be seen. It will depend on what the MSOs want. Not all MSOs may want to have the Mini claiming a tuner.


But the Mini doesn't HAVE to "claim a tuner".... (at least not in theory) only if you want to watch live TV, which I am guessing most people don't care about.



nrc said:


> The Preview wasn't created for TiVo owners. It was created for cable companies that wanted such a device.


True


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## nrc

crxssi said:


> But the Mini doesn't HAVE to "claim a tuner".... (at least not in theory) only if you want to watch live TV, which I am guessing most people don't care about.


In a perfect world where products work ideally at release maybe. But all sources I've read indicate that on the first release the Mini will require a tuner from the Q/4 to be dedicated to it whether you're watching live or not.


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## moyekj

crxssi said:


> But the Mini doesn't HAVE to "claim a tuner".... (at least not in theory) only if you want to watch live TV, which I am guessing most people don't care about.


 In theory, yes. In practice I think it was mentioned in an earlier thread on the Mini that initial release will *REQUIRE* Elite/XL4/P4 to be available on your network to get past initial guided setup. Given that in initial implementation at least they are requiring Mini to be able to grab a tuner for live TV that's also why it's being restricted to 4 tuner units as hosts. Hopefully that won't be the case by release time but TiVo's track record for releasing something right from the start is in question the last few years.


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## aadam101

One of Tivo's biggest problems for years was that people didn't know what the heck a Tivo was for. After 12 years of being a Tivo, I can finally say I haven't heard the phrase "what's a Tivo?" in quite a long time. 

So naturally Tivo's solution to this is to come out with a bunch of new products that people won't understand. As happy as I am to have these things, I am having trouble keeping it all straight. There is the Preview, the Q, the Mini, Premiere, XL, XL4, the Stream, and an unnamed IP box. I suddenly feel like all of the people who have said "What's a Tivo" to me over the years.


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## rainwater

aadam101 said:


> So naturally Tivo's solution to this is to come out with a bunch of new products that people won't understand. As happy as I am to have these things, I am having trouble keeping it all straight. There is the Preview, the Q, the Mini, Premiere, XL, XL4, the Stream, and an unnamed IP box. I suddenly feel like all of the people who have said "What's a Tivo" to me over the years.


Only 2 of those products are available at retail so I don't see what is confusing. The others are available from cable MSOs and are sold as a whole home solution.


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## djwilso

aadam101 said:


> There is the Preview, the Q, the Mini, Premiere, XL, XL4, the Stream, and an unnamed IP box.


Isn't the Mini the name for the "unnamed IP box"?


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## aadam101

djwilso said:


> Isn't the Mini the name for the "unnamed IP box"?


I don't know. Maybe. I'm confused.


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## compnurd

aadam101 said:


> I don't know. Maybe. I'm confused.


Yes it is


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## crxssi

moyekj said:


> TiVo's track record for releasing something right from the start is in question the last few years.


+1


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## aaronwt

aadam101 said:


> One of Tivo's biggest problems for years was that people didn't know what the heck a Tivo was for. After 12 years of being a Tivo, I can finally say I haven't heard the phrase "what's a Tivo?" in quite a long time.
> 
> So naturally Tivo's solution to this is to come out with a bunch of new products that people won't understand. As happy as I am to have these things, I am having trouble keeping it all straight. There is the Preview, the Q, the Mini, Premiere, XL, XL4, the Stream, and an unnamed IP box. I suddenly feel like all of the people who have said "What's a Tivo" to me over the years.


All of those products have TiVo in front of them. Including the IP STB, the TiVo Mini. So while people might not know the specific model, they will know that it is a TiVo.


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## aadam101

aaronwt said:


> All of those products have TiVo in front of them. Including the IP STB, the TiVo Mini. So while people might not know the specific model, they will know that it is a TiVo.


But most of these products are not Tivo's. They are accessories that are useless on their own.


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## jcthorne

I really want a couple of the Tivo Minis but they will have to support a Tivo that has OTA tuners first. Without OTA to connect to, the mini is useless. So Tivo needs to either get the mini connected to the Premiere, or relase a new 4 tuner box that has OTA tuners.


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## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> I really want a couple of the Tivo Minis but they will have to support a Tivo that has OTA tuners first. Without OTA to connect to, the mini is useless. So Tivo needs to either get the mini connected to the Premiere, or relase a new 4 tuner box that has OTA tuners.


They already said at launch it would only be able to be used with an XL4/Elite. With plans to use it with the two tuner Premieres later. Once they are able to update the software. Unless things have changed and they have that feature working at launch.(unlikely but you never know)


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## alex_h

If it had an integrated OTA tuner and enough RAM/Flash RAM to rewind/pause a few minutes, that's be a great thing to differentiate it from Roku/AppleTV. I have a TV by the bar that is only really used for Sports watching, currently live. If you give me a cheap device to stream from my other Tivos, I'd add it. If you let me watch my OTA without switching inputs/UIs, I'd do that as well. But if adding a tuner means adding CableCard and whatever other nonsense, forget it, just let me stream from my Tivos, Hulu, Netflix, etc., and make the price reasonable, and I'll buy one.

Live TV is for sports in my house, and I guess news before we ditched DTV/cable. Streaming pre-recorded stuff there and streaming stuff is great. It'd be nice to use the OTA without switching interfaces, but not really a big deal.


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## aaronwt

It doesn't matter what it is for me. Sports or news. I'm still going to time shift it. Otherwise you waste so much time because of the commercials if you watch live.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## jrtroo

+1. 

I cannot stand to watch NFL live. Better to go for a run/bike ride (or anything without radio/tv/internet) and then watch all 6 minutes of action in around 30-40 minutes. I could watch 3 games or more in the same span as one live, without missing a play while getting a beer or snack.


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## alex_h

jrtroo said:


> +1.
> 
> I cannot stand to watch NFL live. Better to go for a run/bike ride (or anything without radio/tv/internet) and then watch all 6 minutes of action in around 30-40 minutes. I could watch 3 games or more in the same span as one live, without missing a play while getting a beer or snack.


Depends, when I used to watch the NFL with Sunday Ticket, I loved the Monday night recaps where you could watch a game in 30 minutes. We DVR'd 15 hours of Olympic coverage a day and watched in 2-4 hours/night, depending on events we wanted. I get how fast it is to watch that way.

That said, I have a huge Super Bowl Party every year. When there is a big game on, I'll have friends over to watch. If I want to catch the game because I was out with my kids during it, sure, I can "watch" the game in 30 minutes. But that's a completely different experience than watching a game unfold in real time.


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## mr_smits

rainwater said:


> Only 2 of those products are available at retail so I don't see what is confusing.


Here's some confusion:

Tivos can stream to other Tivos that are networked.
Tivo Stream will stream to mobile devices and tablets but not to other Tivos.
Tivo Mini will stream from other Tivos to the Mini but not to or from the Stream (I think).
Tivo Mini will be able to stream *only* with an XL4.

That alone is a huge mess of confusion. Tivo is supposed to keep it simple and make tv easy again. They need to keep trying!


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## compnurd

mr_smits said:


> Here's some confusion:
> 
> Tivos can stream to other Tivos that are networked.
> Tivo Stream will stream to mobile devices and tablets but not to other Tivos.
> Tivo Mini will stream from other Tivos to the Mini but not to or from the Stream (I think).
> Tivo Mini will be able to stream *only* with an XL4.
> 
> That alone is a huge mess of confusion. Tivo is supposed to keep it simple and make tv easy again. They need to keep trying!


Item 4 there is not entirely true... It was confirmed that the Mini will be able to stream from a regular premiere, just not at release


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## sbiller

mr_smits said:


> Here's some confusion:
> 
> Tivos can stream to other Tivos that are networked.
> Tivo Stream will stream to mobile devices and tablets but not to other Tivos.
> Tivo Mini will stream from other Tivos to the Mini but not to or from the Stream (I think).
> Tivo Mini will be able to stream *only* with an XL4.
> 
> That alone is a huge mess of confusion. Tivo is supposed to keep it simple and make tv easy again. They need to keep trying!


I think you are making this way to complicated.

The TiVo Mini is a TiVo extender for additional TVs in the home.

The TiVo Stream allows a local iOS device to receive live or recorded video from any TiVo on the home network.


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## crxssi

mr_smits said:


> Here's some confusion:
> 
> Tivos can stream to other Tivos that are networked.
> Tivo Stream will stream to mobile devices and tablets but not to other Tivos.
> Tivo Mini will stream from other Tivos to the Mini but not to or from the Stream (I think).
> Tivo Mini will be able to stream *only* with an XL4.
> 
> That alone is a huge mess of confusion. Tivo is supposed to keep it simple and make tv easy again. They need to keep trying!


Change item 2 to be "only APPLE mobile devices, except not laptops/notebooks", at least for now.


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## moyekj

compnurd said:


> Item 4 there is not entirely true... It was confirmed that the Mini will be able to stream from a regular premiere, just not at release


 I think that's not entirely accurate either. It WILL be able to stream shows from all series 4 TiVos in your house, but for 1st go around you need a 4 tuner unit as an available host on your network to get past guided setup.


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## crxssi

moyekj said:


> I think that's not entirely accurate either. It WILL be able to stream shows from all series 4 TiVos in your house, but for 1st go around you need a 4 tuner unit as an available host on your network to get past guided setup.


All I can say/warn is:

Buy it for what it claims to do now, not for claims of what it MIGHT do later

Which is good advice when it comes to TiVo stuff. They have a hard enough time making products fill the "now" claims.


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## compnurd

moyekj said:


> I think that's not entirely accurate either. It WILL be able to stream shows from all series 4 TiVos in your house, but for 1st go around you need a 4 tuner unit as an available host on your network to get past guided setup.


Correct but it WAS confirmed it will be able to lock a tuner for a regular premiere after updated software


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## L David Matheny

alex_h said:


> That said, I have a huge Super Bowl Party every year. When there is a big game on, I'll have friends over to watch. If I want to catch the game because I was out with my kids during it, sure, I can "watch" the game in 30 minutes. But that's a completely different experience than watching a game unfold in real time.


Also the Super Bowl is one of the few times when I make it a point to actually watch commercials.


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## jrtroo

crxssi said:


> Buy it for what it claims to do now, not for claims of what it MIGHT do later


This is good advice for anything.


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## Dan203

mr_smits said:


> Tivo Mini will stream from other Tivos to the Mini but not to or from the Stream (I think).


This is unnecessary. The TiVo Stream is simply an accessory that recodes video from the native MPEG-2 format to the H.264. The only reason it even exists is because mobile devices don't come with chips capable of decoding MPEG-2 natively so they have to recode to H.264 for it to be possible to watch video on an iPad/iPhone/etc...

The TiVo Mini doesn't need to stream from the TiVo Stream because it will be capable of decoding the MPEG-2 stream directly, thus no need for the middle man. Same applies to PCs. PCs have enough horsepower that they could stream directly from a TiVo without the TiVo Stream recoding. (although this would require an upgrade to TiVo Desktop as it currently only allows transfers not streaming)

Dan


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## moyekj

crxssi said:


> All I can say/warn is:
> 
> Buy it for what it claims to do now, not for claims of what it MIGHT do later
> 
> Which is good advice when it comes to TiVo stuff. They have a hard enough time making products fill the "now" claims.


 Perhaps I wasn't clear. From my understanding the Mini will be able to stream from 2-tuner units with launch software (using MRS mechanism which is standard between any 2 Premiere units). The problem is you also need a 4-tuner unit to be able to set it up so initially only useful for those with at least 1 4-tuner unit in the household.
Of course until it actually launches we won't know any of this for sure...


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## slowbiscuit

jcthorne said:


> I really want a couple of the Tivo Minis but they will have to support a Tivo that has OTA tuners first. *Without OTA to connect to, the mini is useless.* So Tivo needs to either get the mini connected to the Premiere, or relase a new 4 tuner box that has OTA tuners.


I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.

So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.


----------



## L David Matheny

moyekj said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear. From my understanding the Mini will be able to stream from 2-tuner units with launch software (using MRS mechanism which is standard between any 2 Premiere units). The problem is you also need a 4-tuner unit to be able to set it up so initially only useful for those with at least 1 4-tuner unit in the household.
> Of course until it actually launches we won't know any of this for sure...


If it's just a setup problem, that sounds pretty lame. Since (as others have commented) streaming from a 2-tuner Premiere would provide most of the Mini's usefulness, they should just allow the option of setting it up without linking it to a live tuner. How hard could that be? When it's not streaming, the attached TV could just display a logo screen. Streaming live TV, presumably because the TV doesn't have a cable card, would just not be an option for those without a 4-tuner unit, at least until they work out the (possibly tricky?) problem of dynamically allocating and deallocating a tuner as needed.


----------



## Dan203

slowbiscuit said:


> I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.
> 
> So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.


He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.

I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.

Dan


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway


+1


----------



## danjw1

The only reason I watch live TV is when there is a breaking news story that interests me. I can't see any other situation when I want to watch live TV.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.
> 
> I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.
> 
> Dan


and if you need to watch something live you can just hit record and then start streaming it right away instead of dedicating a tuner to the mini.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> and if you need to watch something live you can just hit record and then start streaming it right away instead of dedicating a tuner to the mini.


 Except you have to go to another Premiere to do so or use iPad/Android/kmttg or equivalent to start a recording.
I also don't care for Live TV but know there are others that do (including some in my family) and having Live TV capability does add value for some prospective buyers. If Live TV was an OPTION instead of a REQUIREMENT then that would satisfy both camps, so I think that's where TiVo should be headed with it.

Perhaps one clever way to give close to Live TV capability without requiring a dedicated tuner is to allow the Mini to connect to any Premiere (4 tuner or 2 tuner) and start a recording on it, then one could use MRS to view it on the Mini. Not the same as Live TV and quick channel changing capabilities but gives you ability to watch something close to Live.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> Perhaps one clever way to give close to Live TV capability without requiring a dedicated tuner is to allow the Mini to connect to any Premiere (4 tuner or 2 tuner) and start a recording on it, then one could use MRS to view it on the Mini. Not the same as Live TV and quick channel changing capabilities but gives you ability to watch something close to Live.


Good idea. I'm guessing that's the way the iOS apps are going to handle live TV. It's certainly not the seamless experience most will want for an extender but it's probably the direction TiVo will head with the Mini experience. Dedicating a tuner means they can truly make the Mini experience nearly identical to the host Premiere.


----------



## jcthorne

aaronwt said:


> They already said at launch it would only be able to be used with an XL4/Elite. With plans to use it with the two tuner Premieres later. Once they are able to update the software. Unless things have changed and they have that feature working at launch.(unlikely but you never know)


Just like the Premiere would have a full HD interface with a software update just after launch.


----------



## jcthorne

slowbiscuit said:


> I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.
> 
> So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.


No, the mini will be useless as it cannot connect to an OTA capable Tivo AT ALL. OTA households are out in the cold. Its a cable TV device only.


----------



## moyekj

jcthorne said:


> No, the mini will be useless as it cannot connect to an OTA capable Tivo AT ALL. OTA households are out in the cold. Its a cable TV device only.


 Premiere & Premiere XL have OTA tuners and you will be able to stream from them.


----------



## L David Matheny

moyekj said:


> Premiere & Premiere XL have OTA tuners and you will be able to stream from them.


Are you suggesting that you could set the Mini up using a friend's 4-tuner unit and then take it home to use with your Premiere or Premiere XL? Or are you just saying that it's supposed to work with all Premieres eventually?


----------



## moyekj

L David Matheny said:


> Are you suggesting that you could set the Mini up using a friend's 4-tuner unit and then take it home to use with your Premiere or Premiere XL? Or are you just saying that it's supposed to work with all Premieres eventually?


 Simply put I'm saying the Mini will be able to MRS from any Series 4 TiVo. The supposed problem at launch is you will need a 4-tuner unit available to initialize the Mini with which is the main complaint of this thread so far. So supposedly at launch if you have a 4-tuner model and 1 or more 2-tuner models you will be able to stream shows from all units, not just the 4-tuner model.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> Simply put I'm saying the Mini will be able to MRS from any Series 4 TiVo. The supposed problem at launch is you will need a 4-tuner unit available to initialize the Mini with which is the main complaint of this thread so far. So supposedly at launch if you have a 4-tuner model and 1 or more 2-tuner models you will be able to stream shows from all units, not just the 4-tuner model.


It seems like it would be a very minor change to allow an MRS-only Mini at launch. Of course it's another path through the software that would require extensive additional testing and error checking.


----------



## dianebrat

Dan203 said:


> He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.
> 
> I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.
> 
> Dan


I see the mini as the PERFECT solution to the bedroom TV problem in a FiOS house where I'm currently using a small HTPC to stream live TV from an HDHomerun Prime. It means the HTPC can go away and I can have a simple solution AND get access to items on my XL4 to allow them to stream.

So not only do I care about Live TV, the mini is targeted 100% right at my needs.


----------



## dave13077

Any guesses if the "Mini" will have built in wireless? Seems to me that they should include it but they also might be interested in selling some sort of "doggle" to increase revenue.


----------



## sbiller

dave13077 said:


> Any guesses if the "Mini" will have built in wireless? Seems to me that they should include it but they also might be interested in selling some sort of "doggle" to increase revenue.


No guess required. The Mini is MoCA and Wired Ethernet only. Wireless is too unreliable to stream Mpeg2.


----------



## crxssi

sbiller said:


> No guess required. The Mini is MoCA and Wired Ethernet only. Wireless is too unreliable to stream Mpeg2.


Wireless *CAN* be too unreliable but that doesn't mean it *IS*. It depends on lots and lots of factors. Given that the bandwidth requirements for MPEG2 HD are high, and consumers are generally totally clueless about how WiFi works, interference, channels, signal propagation, protocols, etc, I can see why TiVo would not want include wireless, it is just a support nightmare.

Of course all you have to do is connect a so-called "WiFi gaming adapter" to the Mini and you are wireless (and at your own "risk").


----------



## sbiller

crxssi said:


> Wireless *CAN* be too unreliable but that doesn't mean it *IS*. It depends on lots and lots of factors. Given that the bandwidth requirements for MPEG2 HD are high, and consumers are generally totally clueless about how WiFi works, interference, channels, signal propagation, protocols, etc, I can see why TiVo would not want include wireless, it is just a support nightmare.
> 
> Of course all you have to do is connect a so-called "WiFi gaming adapter" to the Mini and you are wireless (and at your own "risk").


I agree completely with your clarification. Its all about support and reliability. A few MSOs like AT&T are deploying WiFi set top boxes but I haven't dug into the video quality and reliability questions. My guess is they aren't trying to stream high-quality MPEG-2 over WiFi.


----------



## crxssi

sbiller said:


> I agree completely with your clarification. Its all about support and reliability. A few MSOs like AT&T are deploying WiFi set top boxes but I haven't dug into the video quality and reliability questions. My guess is they aren't trying to stream high-quality MPEG-2 over WiFi.


Agreed, in their case it is far more likely the video is H.264, which would be less than half the bandwidth.


----------



## aaronwt

Even MPEG2 is going to be no more than 19Mb/s. Any properly setup wireless N network will have zero issues streaming such a low bit rate. Of course the caveat is that it needs to be properly setup, and most are not.


----------



## Dan203

dianebrat said:


> I see the mini as the PERFECT solution to the bedroom TV problem in a FiOS house where I'm currently using a small HTPC to stream live TV from an HDHomerun Prime. It means the HTPC can go away and I can have a simple solution AND get access to items on my XL4 to allow them to stream.
> 
> So not only do I care about Live TV, the mini is targeted 100% right at my needs.


At launch it's going to require you to dedicate a tuner from your XL4 to it, essentially turning your XL4 into a 3 tuner TiVo. Is that OK with you?

Personally I don't think many buyers are going to wan to sacrifice a recording tuner just so they have the option to watch Live TV in the other room. And this is why TiVo is limiting it to 4 tuner units, because with a 2 tuner unit it would have to become a 1 tuner unit and no one would go for that.

I'm not really interested in this until they get dynamic tuner allocation working. For now I'll keep my Premiere in the other room for streaming.

Dan


----------



## dianebrat

Dan203 said:


> At launch it's going to require you to dedicate a tuner from your XL4 to it, essentially turning your XL4 into a 3 tuner TiVo. Is that OK with you?


abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.


----------



## Dan203

dianebrat said:


> abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.


I think you're the exception.

Dan


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> I think you're the exception.
> 
> Dan


I am not. I have no issues giving up a tuner to put one of these in a kids room.

If there is no monthly fee with this and no cable card, it is perfect


----------



## sbiller

I just went back and re-read these very informative posts from MegaZone on the Mini.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/

It is worthwhile reading the Comments as well.

You will have the option of giving up *zero*, one, or two tuners on your Elite/XL4/Premiere 4 during setup. Those tuners will form a "pool" of live tuners for the Mini IP STB's on the network.


----------



## crxssi

aaronwt said:


> Even MPEG2 is going to be no more than 19Mb/s. Any properly setup wireless N network will have zero issues streaming such a low bit rate.


Exactly. With the operative words going "properly setup". But even the best of intentions can be foiled by bad interference or poorly designed equipment.



> Of course the caveat is that it needs to be properly setup, and most are not.


And not all wireless networks are "N" (none of mine at home or work are). "G" is about 22Mb/s under ideal conditions, which is pushing it for the highest of MPEG2 streams (usually OTA, since cable/satellite streams are often MUCH lower quality). "B" network? Forget it!


----------



## moyekj

sbiller said:


> I just went back and re-read these very informative posts from MegaZone on the Mini.
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/
> 
> It is worthwhile reading the Comments as well.
> 
> You will have the option of giving up *zero*, one, or two tuners on your Elite/XL4/Premiere 4 during setup. Those tuners will form a "pool" of live tuners for the Mini IP STB's on the network.


 So given that allocating *zero* tuners under "Allow Live TV on Other Devices" is an option it's even sillier to require 4-tuner unit as host during Mini setup.
I think Mini should default to not having Live TV unless you configure to allow it - and the Mini can show a screen explaining how to do it when no tuners are allocated for that function. Under that setup then even if TiVo still requires 4-tuner units only for Live TV functionality that will still satisfy a lot more people.


----------



## dianebrat

dianebrat said:


> abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.





Dan203 said:


> I think you're the exception.


dude.. story of my life! 
But I'm rarely the exception in a way that makes a device manufacture target me with a product.

I do think if you take the TCF folks out of the equation, the majority of more pedestrian XL4 users will rarely if ever need 4 tuners running at the same time.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I think you're the exception.
> 
> Dan


I have no problem with it. The TiVo mini will allow me to move the Premiere I have in the bedroom back into the living. It will then become an OTA only TiVo and I will use it to bring content with me to my GFs house. The Mini will go into my bedroom and I will save $3.99 in cable card fees. I have no issue giving up one of the tuners from my Elites. Now if I only had one Elite that might be a different story.

As long as the mini has a low monthly charge of say under $5 and a low price of say under $99 or an initial price of under $200 with no monthly price. I think I will be pleased with it.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> So given that allocating *zero* tuners under "Allow Live TV on Other Devices" is an option it's even sillier to require 4-tuner unit as host during Mini setup.
> I think Mini should default to not having Live TV unless you configure to allow it - and the Mini can show a screen explaining how to do it when no tuners are allocated for that function. Under that setup then even if TiVo still requires 4-tuner units only for Live TV functionality that will still satisfy a lot more people.


That is a great suggestion. It makes me wonder if this decision is an attempt to drive early adopters to upgrade to the XL4/4. The Mini is optimized for MSOs delivering 4 or 6 tuner gateway devices like the Q or Pace XG1 (6 tuner).


----------



## jcthorne

moyekj said:


> Premiere & Premiere XL have OTA tuners and you will be able to stream from them.


Tivo has stated otherwise. At least until some 'future' update is available.


----------



## slowbiscuit

It makes no sense that the Mini will not be able to stream from any available Tivo S4, but I guess we will have to wait and see what they ship, software-wise. The only restriction should be on live tuner allocation (zero or one, as linked above), at least until they catch up to every other whole-home DVR solution. 

So if they can stream from any Tivo S4, they are not 'useless' for OTA.


----------



## moyekj

jcthorne said:


> Tivo has stated otherwise. At least until some 'future' update is available.


 Read megazone's article:

Specifically:


> I did confirm that the will not pair with the Premiere or Premiere XL at launch, only the Premiere XL4 (aka the Premiere Q for MSOs). So no Live TV on your IP STB if thats all you have. And this isnt a soft thing where it isnt officially supported but you can make it work, the software is just not there to support it on those units. *However, the IP STB is a standard Multi-Room Streaming (MRS) client. It can stream content of of any Premiere unit in the home. So it does work with the Premiere and Premiere XL in as far as youll be able to stream your recordings via MRS.* My understanding is that you will not be able to set recordings on the Premiere or Premiere XL, etc., as that requires the pairing that can only be done with the XL4. Basically whatever you can do with MRS between Premieres today you can do from the IP STB, but thats all  for now at least. (Im going to double check to make sure thats accurate.)


----------



## mr_smits

compnurd said:


> Item 4 there is not entirely true... It was confirmed that the Mini will be able to stream from a regular premiere, just not at release


More support for my point: it is confusing. Tivo needs to get back to making things easier and less confusing.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> I think you are making this way to complicated.


People on this board are dedicated Tivo users that spend time to understand the differences and capabilities of Tivo products. Do you really think the average customer will take the time to decipher what streams to what and the limitations of the products? I do not. Tivo needs to simplify.


----------



## jrtroo

I disagree. Its confusing to US because people are speculating on what it may or may not do, how much it will cost, how it may be upgradable, and how it compares to the cableco units.

Upon release, we will have a TIVO (of different flavors), an extender to possibly avoid a second Tivo, and a streamer to send to a remote device.

It will be much easier to market the reality of these three products than to wrangle in the imagination of those who like to speculate as to functionality, cost, ect.


----------



## markp99

Dan203 said:


> I think you're the exception.
> 
> Dan


This will work for us in our bedroom scenario. I think the instances where that 4th tuner is actually actually capturing programming I asked for (non-suggestions) is quite low.

Waiting to see pricing/subscription(?) info. I also have an idle S3 that could act in this role. The tiny/wall mountable mini unit is appealing vs having to find location for the S3 unit in our bedroom.


----------



## mr_smits

jrtroo said:


> I disagree. Its confusing to US because people are speculating on what it may or may not do, how much it will cost, how it may be upgradable, and how it compares to the cableco units.
> 
> Upon release, we will have a TIVO (of different flavors), an extender to possibly avoid a second Tivo, and a streamer to send to a remote device.
> 
> It will be much easier to market the reality of these three products than to wrangle in the imagination of those who like to speculate as to functionality, cost, ect.


I disagree.


----------



## GatorBlues

So WHEN will Tivo finally announce the release date and pricing (including whether it will have a monthly fee)? It seems like forever since this thing was first announced as coming this fall, and we still don't know those critical pieces of information. 

Personally, I have no interest if the mini has a monthly fee. My wife is never giving up her Charter DVR in the main room, so I'm looking at whether to drop my extra Charter DVRs in other rooms, which are rolled into the same Charter DVR Fee and thus cost me only extra outlet fees ($7 each) by buying a Tivo and a couple minis. I'm not shelling out for a TIVO 4 or whatever it's called now, plus lifetime, plus the Minis, plus a cable card fee, PLUS fees on each mini too. The Tivo solution would wind up costing nearly as much on a monthly basis on top of the big up front expense to buy the main box (with lifetime) and minis. In fact, without lifetime on the main box (which drives up the up front cost), the monthly Tivo costs would actually be higher than 3 extra Charter DVRs, especially if the minis have a monthly fee too.


----------



## jrtroo

GatorBlues said:


> My wife is never giving up her Charter DVR in the main room


Sorry to hear that. An unclimbable mountain called the WAF.

@mr_smits - of course you disagree. That is why I posted here in the first place!  We will just have to see what happens.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

GatorBlues said:


> So WHEN will Tivo finally announce the release date and pricing (including whether it will have a monthly fee)? It seems like forever since this thing was first announced as coming this fall, and we still don't know those critical pieces of information.


Tivo's quarterly earnings conference call is on Wednesday, so we may get some more info about the Mini then. Whether that includes price and date, I don't know. But anything is better than nothing.

It looks like the Stream is coming first; their marketing is ramping up for that presently. It's likely we'll get specific details about that this week too.


----------



## Dan203

I'm betting the Mini requires a software update to the TiVo itself*, which means it probably wont be released until after the fall software update.

* The reason I say this is because based on what's been said it sounds like the Mini is more then just a streamer, it also has the ability to manage the remote TiVo. AFAIK that ability isn't in the current software which is why I think it's going to require an update.


----------



## jcthorne

slowbiscuit said:


> It makes no sense that the Mini will not be able to stream from any available Tivo S4, but I guess we will have to wait and see what they ship, software-wise. The only restriction should be on live tuner allocation (zero or one, as linked above), at least until they catch up to every other whole-home DVR solution.
> 
> So if they can stream from any Tivo S4, they are not 'useless' for OTA.


Tivo has stated that the mini will REQUIRE a 4 tuner series 4 tivo. This precludes OTA. Simple as that. 4 tuner series 4 Tivos do not support OTA so therefore the mini will not either.


----------



## buscuitboy

I have two (2 tuner) Premieres connected to HDTVs on our main floor. I then have a finished basement with 2 bedrooms and a large rec area. These basically have just Comcast digital adapters that don't get the full digital lineup compared to upstairs. 

For one of these basement rooms, I was looking into possibly getting an older Series 3 and then trying to lifetime it after a few months for $99 (that I have seen others here do). However, depending on the cost, this "mini" box might be a much better solution.

I figured out that buying & lifetiming an older S3 box after 6 months will still cost me close to $300. Not to mention that there will STILL be an ongoing Comcast cable card charge for me of $8/month. And there will be some additional nice features missing from the S3 box that my Premieres have. 

Having a mini would be great for my needs as the basement TVs are not frequently used. Mainly for occasional guests for weekends and holidays. Therefore, allowing it to borrow a tuner from one of the main floor Premieres would work sufficiently. Ideally, it would be great to see a mini automatically be able to sense whether the TV is on or not & then get the tuner as needed based on this, but I'm not holding my breathe on that feature being available. If anything & until the software allows this, I could simply plug & unplug the mini in the basement as needed. This way in theory, the tuner would then be released back to the main TiVo Premiere. 

Also, I would avoid the $8/month cable card fee that Comcast would charge me. I would maybe even be willing to pay the same monthly price for a mini that Comcast charges if I put another DTA down there ($2/month). I would not only get more digital channels via the mini, but the ability to have HD quality if desired, Netflix, Hulu, & recorded content. Seems like a win-win for my situation. 

Hell, I might even be willing to upgrade one of my monthly Premieres to one of the newer Premiere 4s ($250) I see in order to also get this "whole home" solution. I guess now all is needed is for the damn thing to come out & how much will it be?


----------



## GatorBlues

jrtroo said:


> Sorry to hear that. An unclimbable mountain called the WAF.
> 
> @mr_smits - of course you disagree. That is why I posted here in the first place!  We will just have to see what happens.


Unclimbable is an understatement, and DVR choices are just the tip of the iceburg! She does love having On Demand through Charter, which is why she insists on having its DVR.


----------



## slowbiscuit

jcthorne said:


> Tivo has stated that the mini will REQUIRE a 4 tuner series 4 tivo. This precludes OTA. Simple as that. 4 tuner series 4 Tivos do not support OTA so therefore the mini will not either.


And Kevin posted megazone's info from Tivo which says that it can stream from any S4.

As I said, we will have to wait and see what it actually does. Knowing Tivo, you're probably right and it will only work with a 4-tuner box.


----------



## Jonathan_S

sbiller said:


> I just went back and re-read these very informative posts from MegaZone on the Mini.
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/
> 
> It is worthwhile reading the Comments as well.
> 
> You will have the option of giving up *zero*, one, or two tuners on your Elite/XL4/Premiere 4 during setup. Those tuners will form a "pool" of live tuners for the Mini IP STB's on the network.


Exactly, and since I don't care about LiveTV I'm provisionally interested (depending on cost) in getting a Mini and configuring it for 0 tuners (MRS only) so I can view recorded shows from my Elite on my other TV.


----------



## jcthorne

slowbiscuit said:


> And Kevin posted megazone's info from Tivo which says that it can stream from any S4.
> 
> As I said, we will have to wait and see what it actually does. Knowing Tivo, you're probably right and it will only work with a 4-tuner box.


Megazone and Tivo have both stated that the mini will require a 4 tuner tivo for setup. Even if you dedicate ZERO tuners. An OTA household will not have a 4 tuner tivo for setup, regardless of what it could stream after being setup.

Hopefully tivo will eventually fix the situation and allow the mini to support OTA households.


----------



## buscuitboy

I would LOVE to be able to dump ALL my Comcrap cable equipment. I'm hoping these "minis" will make it one step closer. Due to cable card shenanigans that Comcast has pulled with me, I also dumped my one and only Comcast digital box so I don't get any true OnDemand material from them (but actually don't terribly miss it either). 

I know getting Comcast OnDemand material on Premieres is in the works for all Comcast customers (Boston and San Fran right now), but when it becomes available in my area (Atlanta), I am hoping maybe these minis might allow access to it as well. I know, wishful thinking, but one can dream can't they?


----------



## yukit

I know this will not likely to happen, but I wish Tivo would just license the Mini feature to Roku/Apple/Google/etc (even Boxee) so I can avoid having another dedicated box.

Maybe Stream would do almost everything I want (except for Airplay) though I don't need another tuner.

If Mini does work as expected, I would get rid of my TivoHDs one at a time. I wonder if their price would take that into account, but many of us on this forum are non-typical Tivo users with multiple boxes...


----------



## sbiller

yukit said:


> I know this will not likely to happen, but I wish Tivo would just license the Mini feature to Roku/Apple/Google/etc (even Boxee) so I can avoid having another dedicated box.
> 
> Maybe Stream would do almost everything I want (except for Airplay) though I don't need another tuner.
> 
> If Mini does work as expected, I would get rid of my TivoHDs one at a time. I wonder if their price would take that into account, but many of us on this forum are non-typical Tivo users with multiple boxes...


I will go out on a limb and say that I fully expect this to happen. TiVo wants to control the user experience. They don't care about the hardware. The question in my mind is whether or not this will come to retail? I think it will but it still is unknown at this point. I will point you to TiVo's August 29th conference call to substantiate my prediction.



> *James C. Goss* - Barrington Research Associates, Inc., Research Division
> Okay. And then lastly, the -- could you talk about the configuration involving TiVo without a set-top box? Exactly how would that be implemented? Would it be built into the TV somehow? And I know it's your software rather than hardware solution, but how exactly would it transpire?
> 
> *Naveen Chopra* - Senior Vice President of Corporate Development & Strategy
> Yes, at the end of the day, what is the consistent part of that is there's a cloud component of it that -- where all of the intelligence and the information about users and their preferences and all the metadata is stored. Our intent is to make that available to a growing number of devices over time. So it will start with things like, obviously, iOS devices, Android devices, the browser. As you get into things like connected TVs, game consoles, et cetera, those tend to be more proprietary platforms. But we do intend over time to address as many of those as possible.
> 
> *Thomas S. Rogers* - Chief Executive Officer, President and Director
> Just to note on that last point that the Scandinavian operator mentioned earlier, Com Hem, has put in place an arrangement with us for us to deliver a full IPTV cloud-based solution that is not dependent on the set-top as part of that arrangement. So this is something we are actively engaged in for operators today who choose to go to that level of IPTV delivery.
> 
> *Naveen Chopra* - Senior Vice President of Corporate Development & Strategy
> Yes, and I guess just to crystallize it, I mean, the reason someone like Com Hem is so enthusiastic about that is they believe there is a growing number of subscribers who want access to pay television content on a mobile device, on a PC, potentially on a connected TV that has some sort of browser. And this is a very efficient way for them to deliver the full complement of that service with a great user interface without having to deal with the operational complexity of getting a set-top box into the home.


I can also direct you to the Jason Wong interview where he gives some good insight as well --> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=482103


----------



## gopheritall

If this is what it sounds like I am very interested. I would be in the market for a 4-tuner+lifetime+3 (or 4) minis. Of course, so far TiVo's repeated delivery below expectations has me doubting. If I can move everything in my house off of Comcast boxes for under 2 grand this Christmas, I probably will.


----------



## sbiller

This is the first confirmation that I know of the Mini in the hands of a 3rd party.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27474100-TiVo-Stream-Chicago-Il

Based on this timing I think we are looking at November at the earliest for a launch.


----------



## aaronwt

I hope it's much sooner.
RCN software versions have been behind the retail software, so maybe the mini will be as well. And will show up in the retail channel before RCN offers it.


----------



## zubinh

I cant understand why Tivo wont at the very least warn consumers that the 2 tuner Tivo's wont support the upcoming Tivo Mini. Doing so would increase sales of 4 Tuner Tivos and prevent consumer backlash for those just purchasing 2 tuner Tivos now and buying mini later


----------



## compnurd

zubinh said:


> I cant understand why Tivo wont at the very least warn consumers that the 2 tuner Tivo's wont support the upcoming Tivo Mini. Doing so would increase sales of 4 Tuner Tivos and prevent consumer backlash for those just purchasing 2 tuner Tivos now and buying mini later


Because the 2 Tuner will support the Mini. Both as a Streaming device and it will allow it to Lock a tuner... Just not at launch


----------



## atmuscarella

zubinh said:


> I cant understand why Tivo wont at the very least warn consumers that the 2 tuner Tivo's wont support the upcoming Tivo Mini.


The only reason we know anything is because TiVo told us.



zubinh said:


> Doing so would increase sales of 4 Tuner Tivos and prevent consumer backlash for those just purchasing 2 tuner Tivos now and buying mini later


New Stuff doesn't always support old stuff - just the way the tech world works, also it may support the Premiere at some point, I seem to remember something about that being said at some point - but my memory is a little fuzzy.


----------



## compnurd

atmuscarella said:


> The only reason we know anything is because TiVo told us.
> 
> New Stuff doesn't always support old stuff - just the way the tech world works, also it may support the Premiere at some point, I seem to remember something about that being said at some point - but my memory is a little fuzzy.


It was discussed and confirmed with the Mini was first announced several months back in a thread in the Coffee House Forum. I cant find that thread now. it was confirmed that the Mini would support the Regular Premiere from a Streaming perspective. It would also support the tuner locking just not at original release. a software update would be released to support that


----------



## Dan203

It's my understanding that it will be able to stream from any TiVo but the initial software release will require the user to have a 4 tuner TiVo on their network and be willing to dedicate a tuner from that TiVo to the Mini for live TV even if they don't watch live TV. The future update you mentioned is suppose to make the live tuner allocation dynamic so that it can be setup with any TiVo and not have to pre-allocate the tuner.

Although personally I think TiVo should reconsider the 4 tuner requirement. Even if it means the Mini has to lose the ability to watch live TV when setup without one, or has to do like the Stream and start recording the live buffer for it to work. Requiring dedication of a tuner seems silly and unnecessary.

Dan


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> It's my understanding that it will be able to stream from any TiVo but the initial software release will require the user to have a 4 tuner TiVo on their network and be willing to dedicate a tuner from that TiVo to the Mini for live TV even if they don't watch live TV. The future update you mentioned is suppose to make the live tuner allocation dynamic so that it can be setup with any TiVo and not have to pre-allocate the tuner.
> 
> Although personally I think TiVo should reconsider the 4 tuner requirement. Even if it means the Mini has to lose the ability to watch live TV when setup without one, or has to do like the Stream and start recording the live buffer for it to work. Requiring dedication of a tuner seems silly and unnecessary.
> 
> Dan


That wasnt the way i understood it. It would be a requirement that a 4 Tuner Tivo on the Network would be required to pass the initial Tuner Lock set up... But the Stream would work as a remote streaming device even if you never set up a tuner


----------



## Dan203

If that's the case then why would they require a 4 tuner box to be on the network? If there is a way for the Mini to not steal a tuner from the 4 tuner box then why wouldn't you just be able to set it up with 2 tuner box and just skip that step completely?

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> If that's the case then why would they require a 4 tuner box to be on the network? If there is a way for the Mini to not steal a tuner from the 4 tuner box then why wouldn't you just be able to set it up with 2 tuner box and just skip that step completely?
> 
> Dan


Part of the guided setup for the mini is probably to pair a tuner since it will be at a TV. They probably don't have a way in the software to release the tuner yet.

I would guess the Stream doesn't go through the same setup since you never use it on a TV. It is probably some type of setup via the app.


----------



## zubinh

I really would like to order a Premier XL4, a Tivo Stream and two Tivo Minis all at the same time. I wish they would give some color as to what the ETA for the mini is. Frustrating for something that was announced in May.


----------



## mahohmei

I currently have a two-tuner Premier in the living room with lifetime service. My bedroom TV is currently being driven by a Comcast DTA, and needless to say, I'd be more than happy to have a TiVo mini on that TV. What I'm interested in here are the technical details. I won't say I want to know when there will be a TiVo mini compatible with a two-tuner Premier, since that's something we'd all like to know. *smile*

Due to physical space constraints and a desire to have the TV mounted flat on the wall without any exposed wiring, I'm going to have to put the TiVo mini in the structured wiring box in the next bedroom.

Doing this isn't the problem: room-to-room IR kits and 25' HDMI cables abound on the Internet.

I'd like to know if the TiVo mini is equipped with built-in "remote use" capabilities--namely, an IR input so an IR receiver can be connected directly to the device without having to use an IR active repeater and emitter. This functionality is built into Comcast's DTAs, as those devices are commonly hidden behind TVs.

Thanks!


----------



## chrislemasters

mahohmei said:


> I'd like to know if the TiVo mini is equipped with built-in "remote use" capabilities--namely, an IR input so an IR receiver can be connected directly to the device without having to use an IR active repeater and emitter. This functionality is built into Comcast's DTAs, as those devices are commonly hidden behind TVs.


Of course, you will likely be able to control it via your network (ala the iOS apps, etc). Then, there is a good chance that it will have a bluetooth option similar to the slider remote (I believe that there was a USB port on the Mini for a dongle). Beyond that, though, I would not expect them to add a new "RF" type technology, or a built-in repeater.

I wonder if there are any dedicated remotes that could take advantage of the "network" control, while still providing IR control for the TV power and volume, etc? Android-based remotes?


----------



## mahohmei

chrislemasters said:


> Of course, you will likely be able to control it via your network (ala the iOS apps, etc). Then, there is a good chance that it will have a bluetooth option similar to the slider remote (I believe that there was a USB port on the Mini for a dongle). Beyond that, though, I would not expect them to add a new "RF" type technology, or a built-in repeater.
> 
> I wonder if there are any dedicated remotes that could take advantage of the "network" control, while still providing IR control for the TV power and volume, etc? Android-based remotes?


- Does the slider remote require _both_ IR and Bluetooth, or can the whole thing work only with Bluetooth?

- To use a Bluetooth remote with the TiVo mini, I'd first have to see if the Bluetooth can make it from the master bedroom all the way to the structured wiring box. Worst case, it's 30' in a straight line, and I've gotten my Bluetooth phone headset to work that distance. Worst case, I could hide the Bluetooth dongle behind the TV and extend it to the TiVo mini with a USB active extender.

- I can use (and have used) my Android smartphone (and tablet) as TiVo remotes, but I prefer the hardware remote. The perfect solution would be a wi-fi remote, which, IIRC, Samsung has done on some of their high-end TVs.

Slightly off-topic, dumb question wrt the TiVo Stream: what functionality does that piece of hardware have that the Premier does not? Could a theoretical software update to a Premier allow it to stream off to Android/iOS devices? Is this just a CPU power issue?


----------



## jrtroo

I suggest you go into the Stream threads for this last question on functionality of that device. There are quite a few posters that mix up these two boxes already. The two separate active threads on each have been great to keep on topic.

To date, Tivo has provided software compatibility with iOS devices prior to Android devices. Premiere boxes cannot do what these add-on boxes do - no support in the box for these functions.


----------



## innocentfreak

mahohmei said:


> - Does the slider remote require _both_ IR and Bluetooth, or can the whole thing work only with Bluetooth?
> 
> - To use a Bluetooth remote with the TiVo mini, I'd first have to see if the Bluetooth can make it from the master bedroom all the way to the structured wiring box. Worst case, it's 30' in a straight line, and I've gotten my Bluetooth phone headset to work that distance. Worst case, I could hide the Bluetooth dongle behind the TV and extend it to the TiVo mini with a USB active extender.
> 
> - I can use (and have used) my Android smartphone (and tablet) as TiVo remotes, but I prefer the hardware remote. The perfect solution would be a wi-fi remote, which, IIRC, Samsung has done on some of their high-end TVs.
> 
> Slightly off-topic, dumb question wrt the TiVo Stream: what functionality does that piece of hardware have that the Premier does not? Could a theoretical software update to a Premier allow it to stream off to Android/iOS devices? Is this just a CPU power issue?


The Slide does both, but I think the Qwerty keypad might only work over BT.

The Premiere doesn't have the CPU power to transcode the streams. It might in a future model, but no a software update wouldn't enable it.


----------



## compnurd

Just saw Direct TV is coming out with the C31 which is designed to work with it's HR34 RVU system. It is exactly like the mini, requiring a tuner from the HR34, so on and so forth


----------



## aaronwt

compnurd said:


> Just saw Direct TV is coming out with the C31 which is designed to work with it's HR34 RVU system. It is exactly like the mini, requiring a tuner from the HR34, so on and so forth


And only $50?


----------



## compnurd

I didnt see the cost. Problem with Direct TV is, it may be 50 bucks, but it just locked you into a new 2 year contract


----------



## farmermac

So what's the expected release date on the mini? Might me upgrade to a premiere...


----------



## sbiller

farmermac said:


> So what's the expected release date on the mini? Might me upgrade to a premiere...


Fall, 2012. No other details have been posted other than the fact that RCN has a few in their lab so we know the hardware is probably ready.


----------



## mahohmei

sbiller said:


> Fall, 2012. No other details have been posted other than the fact that RCN has a few in their lab so we know the hardware is probably ready.


I'm wanting to know if/when the TiVo mini will work with a Premiere two-tuner.


----------



## DavidTigerFan

mahohmei said:


> I'm wanting to know if/when the TiVo mini will work with a Premiere two-tuner.


I believe I read that yes it will after an update, but it locks one of the tuners so you can't record 2 things at once while using it.


----------



## mahohmei

DavidTigerFan said:


> I believe I read that yes it will after an update, but it locks one of the tuners so you can't record 2 things at once while using it.


I can understand needing one of the tuners to make it available for watching live TV. If the person using the TiVo mini is watching an already-recorded show, will both tuners be available for recording or watching on the TiVo itself?


----------



## compnurd

mahohmei said:


> I can understand needing one of the tuners to make it available for watching live TV. If the person using the TiVo mini is watching an already-recorded show, will both tuners be available for recording or watching on the TiVo itself?


That remains to be seen if tuner locking is only used when watching Live TV.

I suspect we wont know until someone has one to review


----------



## lessd

compnurd said:


> That remains to be seen if tuner locking is only used when watching Live TV.
> 
> I suspect we wont know until someone has one to review


How would the device know if your watching live TV, or it would have to work like the TiVo does now, giving you a warning when it was going to change the channel because of an upcoming recordings that take both channels.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mahohmei said:


> I'm wanting to know if/when the TiVo mini will work with a Premiere two-tuner.


Yes and no. A 4-tuner Tivo is required for the initial setup until a later software update. But in the meantime, it can stream recorded shows from ANY Premiere on the network. At least, this is the information we had as of May.



mahohmei said:


> I can understand needing one of the tuners to make it available for watching live TV. If the person using the TiVo mini is watching an already-recorded show, will both tuners be available for recording or watching on the TiVo itself?


The point of the future software update (we don't know when it'll happen) is to make it work fully with 2-tuner Tivos and allow dynamic tuner controlling. With that update, if Live TV is not being watched on the Mini, the tuner will be free to use by the DVR.



lessd said:


> How would the device know if your watching live TV, or it would have to work like the TiVo does now, giving you a warning when it was going to change the channel because of an upcoming recordings that take both channels.


Additionally, the Mini reportedly will have some sort of standby mode and/or video output detection.


----------



## jcthorne

compnurd said:


> Because the 2 Tuner will support the Mini. Both as a Streaming device and it will allow it to Lock a tuner... Just not at launch


Yes, and the Primere will support a full HD user interface...just not a launch....

DO NOT buy Tivo hardware for features not yet supported. They have a long history of never finishing features promised and sold.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Exactly. The hardware might be ready to ship, but Tivo's weak point has been the software for a few years now. You can't count on anything to work like it should or like it was promised.


----------



## compnurd

jcthorne said:


> Yes, and the Primere will support a full HD user interface...just not a launch....
> 
> DO NOT buy Tivo hardware for features not yet supported. They have a long history of never finishing features promised and sold.


I will buy whatever I want, for whatever reasons I want


----------



## mattack

compnurd said:


> I will buy whatever I want, for whatever reasons I want


and you may end up disappointed when the features you expect never show up.


----------



## jfh3

Based on a conversation I had with a TiVo sales rep a few days ago, I don't expect to see the Mini until sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving.


----------



## sbiller

jfh3 said:


> Based on a conversation I had with a TiVo sales rep a few days ago, I don't expect to see the Mini until sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving.


That is the first time I've heard of any date applied to the Mini from a CSR but its consistent with the "Fall Update" that @tivodesign has indicated on twitter.


----------



## Dan203

I think that because of the way the Mini controls a remote TiVo (allows scheduling of shows, etc...) it's probably going to require a software update on the TiVo itself to work. (unless they had a lot of foresight in the last release) If that's the case then the Mini probably wont come out until the Fall Update has been released and most boxes have been updated to it. They don't want a bunch of customers buying it and it not working because their Premiere units aren't running the right software.

Dan


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I think that because of the way the Mini controls a remote TiVo (allows scheduling of shows, etc...) it's probably going to require a software update on the TiVo itself to work. (unless they had a lot of foresight in the last release) If that's the case then the Mini probably wont come out until the Fall Update has been released and most boxes have been updated to it. They don't want a bunch of customers buying it and it not working because their Premiere units aren't running the right software.
> 
> Dan


Agreed. I'm almost certain the Mini requires new software on the Premiere.


----------



## compnurd

sbiller said:


> Agreed. I'm almost certain the Mini requires new software on the Premiere.


+2


----------



## ronaldheft

The software update makes sense. I could see new software landing on Premiere early October for testers with a general release late October. Then, the Mini coming out in November.


----------



## steve614

Let's just hope it doesn't turn out like the promise to get M-cards working on a Series 3.

/TiVo : I know we said we were going to get the TiVo Mini working with Premiere DVRs, but unforseen circumstances are preventing us from doing so.


----------



## Dan203

That's not going to happen. The M-card on S3 issue was a last minute change to the spec which rendered the hardware incapable of supporting them.

They've been developing the Mini for at least 6 months and knew the whole time they were targeting the Premiere platform. Plus something almost like the Mini already exists in the wild called the Preview. Only difference is the Mini wont have the built in tuner and CableCARD slot for live TV. Other then that they do the same thing so implementing it shouldn't be that hard. In fact now that I'm saying that maybe the Mini will work with the current software. I'm pretty sure the Preview and the Q combination use the same software we're using now.

Dan


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> That's not going to happen. The M-card on S3 issue was a last minute change to the spec which rendered the hardware incapable of supporting them.
> 
> They've been developing the Mini for at least 6 months and knew the whole time they were targeting the Premiere platform. Plus something almost like the Mini already exists in the wild called the Preview. Only difference is the Mini wont have the built in tuner and CableCARD slot for live TV. Other then that they do the same thing so implementing it shouldn't be that hard. In fact now that I'm saying that maybe the Mini will work with the current software. I'm pretty sure the Preview and the Q combination use the same software we're using now.
> 
> Dan


We know from RCN chatter that quite a few updates to the Preview have been requested to improve the usability of the device. Its my understanding that the Preview can't manage the recordings on the Q so I think we are looking at a pretty significant "multi-room" upgrade for the series 4 platform. I know there was some discussion about letting the Preview pause live TV by allowing it to use the associated Q. I'm not sure whether or not this will be included in this release since it has a number of "mini-esque" ramifications (e.g., locking a tuner, etc.).


----------



## jfh3

sbiller said:


> That is the first time I've heard of any date applied to the Mini from a CSR but its consistent with the "Fall Update" that @tivodesign has indicated on twitter.


We were talking about the Stream and how far in advance they usually got trained on new products. Since they hadn't been trained on the Mini yet (other than knowing what it was in concept), I just extrapolated.

Realistically, it can't be much later than that and be available for the holiday season.


----------



## sbiller

jfh3 said:


> We were talking about the Stream and how far in advance they usually got trained on new products. Since they hadn't been trained on the Mini yet (other than knowing what it was in concept), I just extrapolated.
> 
> Realistically, it can't be much later than that and be available for the holiday season.


I really need a couple of Mini's in my setup so it can't come soon enough!


----------



## jfh3

sbiller said:


> I really need a couple of Mini's in my setup so it can't come soon enough!


My wife reminds me that I don't NEED anything any more, I just WANT it.

(I failed miserably this afternoon trying to explain why I "needed" to hook up my new TiVo Stream. At least I had the good sense to do the dishes before we had the conversation.)

Not exactly sure what I will do with a Mini, but I will be one of the first in line to buy one - I have to do my part as a shareholder.


----------



## sbiller

jfh3 said:


> My wife reminds me that I don't NEED anything any more, I just WANT it.
> 
> (I failed miserably this afternoon trying to explain why I "needed" to hook up my new TiVo Stream. At least I had the good sense to do the dishes before we had the conversation.)
> 
> Not exactly sure what I will do with a Mini, but I will be one of the first in line to buy one - I have to do my part as a shareholder.


LOL. I'm not married so I don't have that problem. I'm moving into my girlfriends FiOS household where she has 4 TVs so my two Premieres aren't going to cut it. I will probably shift to my one Elite/XL4 with 3 Minis and sell my lifetime Premiere to offset the cost of the Minis. It's also my duty as a shareholder!


----------



## swarto112

sbiller said:


> LOL. I'm not married so I don't have that problem. I'm moving into my girlfriends FiOS household where she has 4 TVs so my two Premieres aren't going to cut it. I will probably shift to my one Elite/XL4 with 3 Minis and sell my lifetime Premiere to offset the cost of the Minis. It's also my duty as a shareholder!


u'll love the moca setup, fios speed is crazy fast for these boxes. its just night and day


----------



## mikebaratta

Has anyone seen any information on what features (in addition to Tivo functionality) will be available on the Tivo Mini? Specifically Amazon, Netflix, Pandora, etc. I've only seen generic claims, but nothing specific.

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## aaronwt

I thought they had mentioned that it would be the same streaming content providers that are available on the premiere?

And since Amazon streaming isn't on the premiere, I would guess it wouldn't work on the mini, unless they have a new amazon app to go with the Mini release.


----------



## Test

aaronwt said:


> I thought they had mentioned that it would be the same streaming content providers that are available on the premiere?
> 
> And since Amazon streaming isn't on the premiere, I would guess it wouldn't work on the mini, *unless they have a new amazon app to go with the Mini release.*


:up::up::up:


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> I thought they had mentioned that it would be the same streaming content providers that are available on the premiere?
> 
> And since Amazon streaming isn't on the premiere, I would guess it wouldn't work on the mini, unless they have a new amazon app to go with the Mini release.


They could still allow you to pick something from Amazon, have it start downloading to the host TiVo and then start streaming that. I'm not sure if they're allowed to stream Amazon shows though. There might be some issue there.

Dan


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> They could still allow you to pick something from Amazon, have it start downloading to the host TiVo and then start streaming that. I'm not sure if they're allowed to stream Amazon shows though. There might be some issue there.
> 
> Dan


The Premieres currently can't stream Amazon content between boxes. You get a red circle with a line through it next to the Amazon title. So I wouldn't expect the Mini to be able to either. But you never know. Maybe the Mini will be the catalyst to get Amazon streaming add to the Series 4 boxes. If that does happen I just hope there will still be an option to download a title.


----------



## Jets

Why would you need this is Amazon now Prime on the Tivo? The amazon application is so weak I never use it, but then again I have an xbox360 on the same tv.


----------



## aaronwt

I have 360s as well. But I can't say that I use my 360 for Amazon content. My first choice is always the TiVo since it has native resolution output. But that is only for content I purchase/rent from Amazon. For Amazon streaming content my Roku2 is my first choice.


----------



## swerver

Question - and maybe no one knows yet - does the mini require moca, or can it use ethernet too? I ask because I read in another thread that the standard 2 tuner premier doesn't have built in moca, but I get the impression that these will work with 2 tuner premiers at some point (not initially, 4 tuner only at first). 

I plan to buy a mini when it comes out and wanna know if I need to either 
1. do nothing, the mini and my premier will work as is over moca
2. run ethernet, if the mini can use it, or
3. get 3rd party moca adapters.

thanks


----------



## compnurd

swerver said:


> Question - and maybe no one knows yet - does the mini require moca, or can it use ethernet too? I ask because I read in another thread that the standard 2 tuner premier doesn't have built in moca, but I get the impression that these will work with 2 tuner premiers at some point (not initially, 4 tuner only at first).
> 
> I plan to buy a mini when it comes out and wanna know if I need to either
> 1. do nothing, the mini and my premier will work as is over moca
> 2. run ethernet, if the mini can use it, or
> 3. get 3rd party moca adapters.
> 
> thanks


Thats a good question... If i had to guess... MOCA will be required for Tuner Stealing and ethernet only for streaming.. But i dont think we know for certain yet


----------



## wmcbrine

I'm certain all functionality will be available via Ethernet. But I don't actually _know_. It's just crazy to think otherwise.


----------



## Dan203

compnurd said:


> Thats a good question... If i had to guess... MOCA will be required for Tuner Stealing and ethernet only for streaming.. But i dont think we know for certain yet


MOCA is just a network technology. The TiVo shouldn't care if it's connected via MOCA or Ethernet, they should work exactly the same. In fact if you had a wifi bridge or powerline bridge, or any other sort of bridge, they will all probably work provided they have enough bandwidth to sustain a watchable stream.

That's the cool thing about networking, IP is IP, no matter how it's transmitted.

Dan


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

swerver said:


> Question - and maybe no one knows yet - does the mini require moca, or can it use ethernet too? I ask because I read in another thread that the standard 2 tuner premier doesn't have built in moca, but I get the impression that these will work with 2 tuner premiers at some point (not initially, 4 tuner only at first).
> 
> I plan to buy a mini when it comes out and wanna know if I need to either
> 1. do nothing, the mini and my premier will work as is over moca
> 2. run ethernet, if the mini can use it, or
> 3. get 3rd party moca adapters.
> 
> thanks


It has an ethernet port for sure. I'd say no, moca is not mandatory. Ethernet will work if you prefer.

But I'm unsure... Which Tivos do you have?

If you want to setup a moca network:

If you have a 4-tuner box, then all you'll need is 1 moca adapter to connect between your modem and router to light up your house. The 4-tuner box and the Mini have it built-in, so they don't need individual adapters.

If all you have is a 2-tuner box, it is believed you technically won't able to setup the Mini at this point.

If you have both a 4-tuner AND 2-tuner box, then you can get a second moca adapter for the 2-tuner box if you WANT, but it's not necessary. But some kind of wired connection is ideal for any kind of box-to-box streaming.


----------



## slowbiscuit

compnurd said:


> Thats a good question... If i had to guess... MOCA will be required for Tuner Stealing and ethernet only for streaming.. But i dont think we know for certain yet


As Dan said, MoCA and Ethernet have nothing to do with how the software talks to a Tivo across the network via IP. Either would work.


----------



## compnurd

Dan203 said:


> MOCA is just a network technology. The TiVo shouldn't care if it's connected via MOCA or Ethernet, they should work exactly the same. In fact if you had a wifi bridge or powerline bridge, or any other sort of bridge, they will all probably work provided they have enough bandwidth to sustain a watchable stream.
> 
> That's the cool thing about networking, IP is IP, no matter how it's transmitted.
> 
> Dan


I am well aware of how ethernet and MOCA work.... The reason for my statement could be that Tivo may want to get out of the home consumer network issue game... Direct TV did the same thing. When they first started whole home DVR, it worked on DECA(there version of MOCA) and ethernet... when it launched to the public, you had to have DECA installed to use it... If they are going to require a P4 or XL4 at launch to set up a Mini.. There is no reason to think they may require that piece be MOCA


----------



## wmcbrine

The DirecTV situation is not comparable. They never supported Ethernet to begin with. TiVo has been networking with Ethernet for years. There is no reason for them to stop now.


----------



## compnurd

wmcbrine said:


> The DirecTV situation is not comparable. They never supported Ethernet to begin with. TiVo has been networking with Ethernet for years. There is no reason for them to stop now.


.... Direct TV situation was not different.. Ethernet was used for well over 6 months for whole home before they did a full national roll out.


----------



## Jonathan_S

swerver said:


> Question - and maybe no one knows yet - does the mini require moca, or can it use ethernet too? I ask because I read in another thread that the standard 2 tuner premier doesn't have built in moca, but I get the impression that these will work with 2 tuner premiers at some point (not initially, 4 tuner only at first).
> 
> I plan to buy a mini when it comes out and wanna know if I need to either
> 1. do nothing, the mini and my premier will work as is over moca
> 2. run ethernet, if the mini can use it, or
> 3. get 3rd party moca adapters.
> 
> thanks


From what I remember reading all functionality will avalible with either interface (moca or ethernet); but unlike a 4/XL4/Elite the Mini cannot act as an ethernet to moca bridge if both are connected.


----------



## slowbiscuit

compnurd said:


> There is no reason to think they may require that piece be MOCA


Exactly, so why are you speculating that they will? Tivo is not going to care what physical link layer you use to route IP packets from the Mini to the boxes, regardless of initial setup, tuner stealing etc. If it has both MoCA and Ethernet connections, either will work to support full functionality. Speculating otherwise is IMO silly, because nothing they've done this far has been that dumb.


----------



## compnurd

slowbiscuit said:


> Exactly, so why are you speculating that they will? Tivo is not going to care what physical link layer you use to route IP packets from the Mini to the boxes, regardless of initial setup, tuner stealing etc. If it has both MoCA and Ethernet connections, either will work to support full functionality. Speculating otherwise is IMO silly, because nothing they've done this far has been that dumb.


----------



## Dan203

Jonathan_S said:


> From what I remember reading all functionality will avalible with either interface (moca or ethernet); but unlike a 4/XL4/Elite the Mini cannot act as an ethernet to moca bridge if both are connected.


That's exactly what I remember as well.

Plus TiVo already supports streaming via Ethernet TiVo to TiVo, and the Mini is basically just a diskless, tunerless, TiVo so why would it be limited to Moca only?

It sounds like DirecTV did it to further lock customers into their ecosystem. TiVo doesn't have the same incentives. They want to sell products. I could see them maybe locking it to Moca only for one of their cable partners if they requested it, but there is no reason to do that on a consumer product.

Dan


----------



## wmcbrine

compnurd said:


> .... Direct TV situation was not different.. Ethernet was used for well over 6 months for whole home before they did a full national roll out.


What happened in a beta doesn't count.



Dan203 said:


> It sounds like DirecTV did it to further lock customers into their ecosystem.


Other possible reasons:

1. Avoiding network-related support calls. (This could be the major reason, if they dropped it after the beta.)

2. Making it harder to intercept the content.

I remember, back in the HR10-250 days, hearing that the reason DirecTV never enabled network capabilities for DirecTiVos was that they wanted to do networking over coax, only, for these reasons.


----------



## jjd_87

Any more news on this? I'm about to move into a new place and would love to have one for my bedroom tv.


----------



## Dan203

Suppose to be released this "fall". That could mean any time between now and Christmas. And that's just an estimate so they could push it further if it's not ready. (TiVo has been known to miss target dates in the past)

Dan


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Suppose to be released this "fall". That could mean any time between now and Christmas. And that's just an estimate so they could push it further if it's not ready. (TiVo has been known to miss target dates in the past)
> 
> Dan


It's probably very much like the Stream. The hardware is ready for release. The quality of the software is the big unknown when they decide to launch. I expect we will see it well before Black Friday.


----------



## compnurd

sbiller said:


> It's probably very much like the Stream. The hardware is ready for release. The quality of the software is the big unknown when they decide to launch. I expect we will see it well before Black Friday.


I agree with that. I think we will see a update with the software here which is the reason we havent seen it yet


----------



## innocentfreak

It might also be an issue where it needs the next update for it to work as advertised so they might be waiting for the software update to rollout. 

It would make some sense since we know the next update adds the HD screen for remote My Shows which the Stream would use primarily.


----------



## compnurd

innocentfreak said:


> It might also be an issue where it needs the next update for it to work as advertised so they might be waiting for the software update to rollout.
> 
> It would make some sense since we know the next update adds the HD screen for remote My Shows which the Stream would use primarily.


I am just praying for a Unified playlist between the boxes


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> I am just praying for a Unified playlist between the boxes


My magic 8 ball says no.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon if ever. While there are potential issues like how you handle duplicates, I also get the impression it would take some major changes to how TiVo works.

As far as duplicates there are multiple ways that could be addressed such as assigning a number or letter to each TiVo and having that alphanumeric character show up in the status circle. The issue is it needs to be clear and consistent. Of course some of this could also be handled by user profiles.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it also, but I don't think this was ever planned so it seems like it would be tough to implement after the fact.


----------



## compnurd

innocentfreak said:


> My magic 8 ball says no.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon if ever. While there are potential issues like how you handle duplicates, I also get the impression it would take some major changes to how TiVo works.
> 
> As far as duplicates there are multiple ways that could be addressed such as assigning a number or letter to each TiVo and having that alphanumeric character show up in the status circle. The issue is it needs to be clear and consistent. Of course some of this could also be handled by user profiles.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it also, but I don't think this was ever planned so it seems like it would be tough to implement after the fact.


I would not think it would be that hard... Direct TV has had it for almost 4 years now on there ****ty software. Duplicates were just listed twice. Would just be so much easier... even more so with the mini, to just hit my shows and see your shows folders across all DVR's.. Instead of having to go into each box to find a show I have tweeted Margret several times about it with no response. Normally she responds with a she will pass it along so i am hoping the silence means it may be coming


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> I would not think it would be that hard... Direct TV has had it for almost 4 years now on there ****ty software. Duplicates were just listed twice. Would just be so much easier... even more so with the mini, to just hit my shows and see your shows folders across all DVR's.. Instead of having to go into each box to find a show I have tweeted Margret several times about it with no response. Normally she responds with a she will pass it along so i am hoping the silence means it may be coming


DirecTV may have planned it in advance so it was slowly built into the product. Also DirecTV had streaming a lot earlier long before they had anything with more than two tuners. As a result it was a goal for them to incorporate it this way. Also for all we know it was a ReplayTV patent and as a result TiVo would have to find a way around it or license it.


----------



## jrtroo

Easy to say, hard to do.

I think we should not expect an integrated list as Tivo seems to be moving towards a primary unit with more tuners and interconnected clients. That reduces the need for that kind of complex programming, becoming throw-away code.


----------



## compnurd

jrtroo said:


> Easy to say, hard to do.
> 
> I think we should not expect an integrated list as Tivo seems to be moving towards a primary unit with more tuners and interconnected clients. That reduces the need for that kind of complex programming, becoming throw-away code.


True... But unless the software changes that would still suck. That would mean if you have a Mini, and you open My Shows it will only show you the name of the DVR, which you then have to open to stream a show. That or the Mini has different software and your shows populate on the mini.. Which would still mean a unified playlist could work


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> True... But unless the software changes that would still suck. That would mean if you have a Mini, and you open My Shows it will only show you the name of the DVR, which you then have to open to stream a show. That or the Mini has different software and your shows populate on the mini.. Which would still mean a unified playlist could work


This might be why they require a XL4/Elite to be paired right now. As a result you by default see the My Shows from the XL4/Elite and live TV. Then you browse down to the other TiVos.


----------



## compnurd

innocentfreak said:


> This might be why they require a XL4/Elite to be paired right now. As a result you by default see the My Shows from the XL4/Elite and live TV. Then you browse down to the other TiVos.


good call


----------



## tivogurl

wmcbrine said:


> 2. Making it harder to intercept the content.


SSL has been available a Real Long Time Now. What's the point of MOCA?

I find this paranoia about content copying abysmally stupid. I can already copy everything that's on the disk. Even if _that_ wasn't already encrypted, what sort of pinhead thinks you have to transfer video in cleartext over the wire?

The same goes for, say, the no-copy flag. Why the heck do you care _which_ TiVo has the copy, so long as it's the only copy? The original TiVo that recorded it is in no way special, so why prevent transfers of no-copy flagged shows? It massively screws up provisioning new TiVos, and along with the bizarre refusal of TiVo to write software that autoconfigures a new TiVo from an old one makes the decision to upgrade (and send TiVo much needed revenue) much harder.


----------



## lessd

tivogurl said:


> SSL has been available a Real Long Time Now. What's the point of MOCA?
> 
> I find this paranoia about content copying abysmally stupid. I can already copy everything that's on the disk. Even if _that_ wasn't already encrypted, what sort of pinhead thinks you have to transfer video in cleartext over the wire?
> 
> The same goes for, say, the no-copy flag. Why the heck do you care _which_ TiVo has the copy, so long as it's the only copy? The original TiVo that recorded it is in no way special, so why prevent transfers of no-copy flagged shows? It massively screws up provisioning new TiVos, and along with the bizarre refusal of TiVo to write software that autoconfigures a new TiVo from an old one makes the decision to upgrade (and send TiVo much needed revenue) much harder.


I think this copy stuff is about letting TiVo use cable cards (and not getting the MSO angry ), I don't think TiVo would care about coping if the decision was only up to TiVo.


----------



## Xab

compnurd said:


> I am just praying for a Unified playlist between the boxes


What do you mean by a unified playlist? As in, see the same shows on both boxes? I don't see why it would work any other way.


----------



## tivogurl

lessd said:


> I think this copy stuff is about letting TiVo use cable cards (and not getting the MSO angry ), I don't think TiVo would care about coping if the decision was only up to TiVo.


Yeah, but the cablecos aren't rational about it. You can _stream_ a no-copy show, but not do a _copy to B/delete from A_ for it. They worry about wire interception when sending video over the wire exposes nothing that isn't exposed in a fraction of the effort by pulling the drive. I could go on.


----------



## vurbano

Xab said:


> What do you mean by a unified playlist? As in, see the same shows on both boxes? I don't see why it would work any other way.


The whole things sounds very simple to me. The only recording would be done on the xl4 or whatever they call it today, the minis would be able to view live Tv or recordings streamed from the main box. The mini would be able to schedule recordings on the main box and view the main play list. Seems one playlist would be a given. But IMO the main box should have six tuners.


----------



## slowbiscuit

jrtroo said:


> Easy to say, hard to do.
> 
> I think we should not expect an integrated list as Tivo seems to be moving towards a primary unit with more tuners and interconnected clients. That reduces the need for that kind of complex programming, becoming throw-away code.


ReplayTV did it 10 years ago, but Tivo is incapable of simply making a complete HDUI that performs as expected. Therefore I agree - for Tivo, this would be hard to do.


----------



## compnurd

Xab said:


> What do you mean by a unified playlist? As in, see the same shows on both boxes? I don't see why it would work any other way.


Basically the way it should work(like it does with Direct TV) When you open my shows instead of just seeing the recordings on that box, plus seeing the other DVR which you then have to select to browse the shows, it would automatically show all shows from all DVR's it sees on the first screen. If there are duplicates, it justs groups them together in a folder and shows both shows. it is useful for people like me who have season passes spread over multiple Tivo's


----------



## aaronwt

compnurd said:


> Basically the way it should work(like it does with Direct TV) When you open my shows instead of just seeing the recordings on that box, plus seeing the other DVR which you then have to select to browse the shows, it would automatically show all shows from all DVR's it sees on the first screen. If there are duplicates, it justs groups them together in a folder and shows both shows. it is useful for people like me who have season passes spread over multiple Tivo's


Does that actually work well? Currently looking on one Elite, the number of shows in the list is pretty big. If I add my other Elite to the list plus my two tuner Premiere, the list of my shows would be gigantic.


----------



## compnurd

aaronwt said:


> Does that actually work well? Currently looking on one Elite, the number of shows in the list is pretty big. If I add my other Elite to the list plus my two tuner Premiere, the list of my shows would be gigantic.


It worked Great actually. I dont know if the software constantly polled the other boxes but pressing List on the remote would bring everything up seamless. While there software overall was slow as ****, this really did act like everything was on the one unit, not spread over several DVR's


----------



## innocentfreak

slowbiscuit said:


> ReplayTV did it 10 years ago, but Tivo is incapable of simply making a complete HDUI that performs as expected. Therefore I agree - for Tivo, this would be hard to do.


Again this is probably patented by ReplayTV which is why DirecTV is now able to do it.

Does any other company offer this? I can't think of one.


----------



## compnurd

There is no way that patent is still valid


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> There is no way that patent is still valid


Why? The TiVo patents are still valid from the same time frame.

Again I don't know of another company that has even tried to do it so assuming there is even a patent it probably hasn't been challenged.


----------



## MichaelK

tivogurl said:


> ...
> 
> The same goes for, say, the no-copy flag. Why the heck do you care _which_ TiVo has the copy, so long as it's the only copy? The original TiVo that recorded it is in no way special, so why prevent transfers of no-copy flagged shows? It massively screws up provisioning new TiVos, and along with the bizarre refusal of TiVo to write software that autoconfigures a new TiVo from an old one makes the decision to upgrade (and send TiVo much needed revenue) much harder.





tivogurl said:


> Yeah, but the cablecos aren't rational about it. You can _stream_ a no-copy show, but not do a _copy to B/delete from A_ for it. They worry about wire interception when sending video over the wire exposes nothing that isn't exposed in a fraction of the effort by pulling the drive. I could go on.


This is yet another shortcoming of tivo's programmers (well really the management that tells the programmers what to do)

the cable rules explicitly ALLOW tivo (or anyone) to MOVE the file from one place to another. The software just has to make the original unusable before it allows the copy to be usable. It's been that way since the day the S3 came out. Tivo just choose to put it's head in the sand and ignore implementing that feature since they see streaming as the be all end all of the copy protection issue.

PS- not to agree with the stupid copy protection nonsense at all- just point out some of the grief from the stupid rules is because of choices tivo made.


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> Again this is probably patented by ReplayTV which is why DirecTV is now able to do it.
> 
> Does any other company offer this? I can't think of one.


does anyone know if tivo and replays' cross licensing agreement (wasn't there one that ended their lawsuits against each other?)- covered ALL patents or just some?

if it was all then TiVo cold do it too.


----------



## crxssi

innocentfreak said:


> Why? The TiVo patents are still valid from the same time frame.


Are they? That seems like a long time too... the big two being "thumbs up/down" and "automatic recording of suggestions". They have been doing this since the start, and aren't patents just 7 years?


----------



## nrc

MichaelK said:


> does anyone know if tivo and replays' cross licensing agreement (wasn't there one that ended their lawsuits against each other?)- covered ALL patents or just some?
> 
> if it was all then TiVo cold do it too.


No, there was never a cross licensing agreement. The companies just mutually agreed to drop their suits.

There's also no reason to think that ReplayTV had a patent on a consolidated Now Playing list. They have only three patents that show up on a search and none of them have anything to do with that.


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> Basically the way it should work(like it does with Direct TV) When you open my shows instead of just seeing the recordings on that box, plus seeing the other DVR which you then have to select to browse the shows, it would automatically show all shows from all DVR's it sees on the first screen. If there are duplicates, it justs groups them together in a folder and shows both shows. it is useful for people like me who have season passes spread over multiple Tivo's


TiVo updated their Suggestion survey so it might be worth it to fill out the form again assuming you have before.

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/


----------



## nrc

crxssi said:


> Are they? That seems like a long time too... the big two being "thumbs up/down" and "automatic recording of suggestions". They have been doing this since the start, and aren't patents just 7 years?


20 years from application.

TiVo's big patent has been 6233389 - Multimedia time warping system, filed July 30th, 1998.


----------



## compnurd

nrc said:


> 20 years from application.
> 
> TiVo's big patent has been 6233389 - Multimedia time warping system, filed July 30th, 1998.


While on the topic of patents.. Direct TV is coming out with something Called Genie recommends.. Very Similar to Suggestions


----------



## Austin Bike

tivogurl said:


> I find this paranoia about content copying abysmally stupid. I can already copy everything that's on the disk. Even if _that_ wasn't already encrypted, what sort of pinhead thinks you have to transfer video in cleartext over the wire?


They aren't worried about smart people being able to do it, they are worried about dumb people being able to do it.

It is like worrying about people driving over 150MPH on the highway. While everyone might want to do it, only a few people have the cars to let them do that.


----------



## Arcady

Austin Bike said:


> It is like worrying about people driving over 150MPH on the highway. While everyone might want to do it, only a few people have the cars to let them do that.


But this is like closing the whole road to keep those few people from speeding.


----------



## tivogurl

Arcady said:


> But this is like closing the whole road to keep those few people from speeding.


Like I said, irrational.


----------



## wco81

Found this thread through Google search.

Has there been any sign of when the extender box will come out?

Looks like nobody has an updated article since they were announced back in May for availability in the fall.

We're well into the fall ...


----------



## jkudlacz

GatorBlues said:


> So WHEN will Tivo finally announce the release date and pricing (including whether it will have a monthly fee)? It seems like forever since this thing was first announced as coming this fall, and we still don't know those critical pieces of information.
> 
> Personally, I have no interest if the mini has a monthly fee. My wife is never giving up her Charter DVR in the main room, so I'm looking at whether to drop my extra Charter DVRs in other rooms, which are rolled into the same Charter DVR Fee and thus cost me only extra outlet fees ($7 each) by buying a Tivo and a couple minis. I'm not shelling out for a TIVO 4 or whatever it's called now, plus lifetime, plus the Minis, plus a cable card fee, PLUS fees on each mini too. The Tivo solution would wind up costing nearly as much on a monthly basis on top of the big up front expense to buy the main box (with lifetime) and minis. In fact, without lifetime on the main box (which drives up the up front cost), the monthly Tivo costs would actually be higher than 3 extra Charter DVRs, especially if the minis have a monthly fee too.


Well I am not sure if you are doing your math correctly. With TIVO you own the BOX which means you can always sell it few years later. With Charter you are paying monthly fee, which you will never get back, so with time you do recoup your costs and start to save significant amount of money every year.


----------



## mahohmei

wco81 said:


> Found this thread through Google search.
> 
> Has there been any sign of when the extender box will come out?
> 
> Looks like nobody has an updated article since they were announced back in May for availability in the fall.
> 
> We're well into the fall ...


I'm wondering too. Assuming the monthly fee will be reasonable, or better yet, nonexistent, I'd like to get Mrs. Mahohmei and myself one for Christmas.


----------



## innocentfreak

wco81 said:


> Found this thread through Google search.
> 
> Has there been any sign of when the extender box will come out?
> 
> Looks like nobody has an updated article since they were announced back in May for availability in the fall.
> 
> We're well into the fall ...


Not yet.

Friday September 21st was the last day of summer. Fall runs Sept 22-December 20th.


----------



## Test

Every time I see this in my CP I get excited that there is real news...then there is none.


----------



## wco81

innocentfreak said:


> Not yet.
> 
> Friday September 21st was the last day of summer. Fall runs Sept 22-December 20th.


Yeah I guess Tivo and Ceton both jumped the gun, announcing extender products early in the year and now those announcements are starting to vaporize.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

We're not likely going to get a big buildup with a lot of advance notice, unfortunately. There was only about 2.5 weeks between the sudden "Join the Stream Team" promotion and general availability.

The goal was/is fall. It only just started. I am giddy about it too, but I've accepted, err, more like tolerated the fact that I have to be patient. Heh. It'll happen.


----------



## jrtroo

Many many companies announce products 6-8 months ahead of release dates. Nothing unusual there. We are only at the start of the three month "fall", so asking "when" only a few days into things seems a recipe for disappointment. We are less than 30 days from a big product launch, which was announced earlier this year as well.

Nothing has vaporized. In the *recent* past Tivo has actually been pretty good on meeting announce dates (no flames- the dtivo was not on them). Stream, 4 tuners, additional capacity, updated software (though not all the way updated), have been timely.

Its clear to me, they want to get this out before Christmas but with enough space after their recent stream launch that they get more press. Launching them together (if they could have) would not have gotten as much coverage as two separate events.


----------



## wco81

Some companies like Apple doesn't announce until they're ready to ship right after the announcement or shortly thereafter.

I guess Tivo announcing early kept people from tying themselves to other platforms. I've waited, instead of pursuing getting the Whole Home DVR setup from DirectTV.

I might move to Comcast and buy a Tivo to get this but not sure it's worth waiting out.


----------



## jkudlacz

crxssi said:


> Are they? That seems like a long time too... the big two being "thumbs up/down" and "automatic recording of suggestions". They have been doing this since the start, and aren't patents just 7 years?


For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995,[1] the patent term is 20 years from the filing date of the earliest U.S. application to which priority is claimed (excluding provisional applications).[2]
For applications that were pending on and for patents that were still in force on June 8, 1995, the patent term is either 17 years from the issue date or 20 years from the filing date of the earliest U.S. or international (PCT) application to which priority is claimed (excluding provisional applications), the longer term applying.[3][4]


----------



## jkudlacz

wco81 said:


> Some companies like Apple doesn't announce until they're ready to ship right after the announcement or shortly thereafter.
> 
> I guess Tivo announcing early kept people from tying themselves to other platforms. I've waited, instead of pursuing getting the Whole Home DVR setup from DirectTV.
> 
> I might move to Comcast and buy a Tivo to get this but not sure it's worth waiting out.


You do realize that APPLE is probably the ONLY company in the world that announces a product only few days before it is available to ship.

No other company can afford to do it that way. Mini is coming, we have at least 2.5 more months before we should start getting worried. I bet we will see it before December, to be honest I am hoping before November.

I just ordered Tivo 4 with 4 tuners and Ethernet MOCA bridge to setup my whole house for Mini. Now I am counting days, to bad I don't know exactly how many more days are left.


----------



## innocentfreak

wco81 said:


> Yeah I guess Tivo and Ceton both jumped the gun, announcing extender products early in the year and now those announcements are starting to vaporize.


Well Ceton extenders are supposed to go to beta testers the beginning of October. I don't think they will make this year with the Q, but it all depends on how much beta testing it needs.

As it has been mentioned the TiVo Mini requires the next update so once that roll-out completes I would expect to hear more details.


----------



## compnurd

jkudlacz said:


> You do realize that APPLE is probably the ONLY company in the world that announces a product only few days before it is available to ship.
> 
> No other company can afford to do it that way. Mini is coming, we have at least 2.5 more months before we should start getting worried. I bet we will see it before December, to be honest I am hoping before November.
> 
> I just ordered Tivo 4 with 4 tuners and Ethernet MOCA bridge to setup my whole house for Mini. Now I am counting days, to bad I don't know exactly how many more days are left.


The P4 supports MOCA already and so will the Mini's... Dont think you needed the bridge unless for something else now


----------



## steve614

Test said:


> Every time I see this in my CP I get excited that there is real news...then there is none.


Wrong thread.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=468777


----------



## mr_smits

innocentfreak said:


> Well Ceton extenders are supposed to go to beta testers the beginning of October. I don't think they will make this year with the Q, but it all depends on how much beta testing it needs.
> 
> As it has been mentioned the TiVo Mini requires the next update so once that roll-out completes I would expect to hear more details.


Thanks for the update. I was hoping the extenders would roll out soon, but it doesn't sound like it will be before December.


----------



## buscuitboy

innocentfreak said:


> Well Ceton extenders are supposed to go to beta testers the beginning of October. I don't think they will make this year with the Q, but it all depends on how much beta testing it needs.
> 
> As it has been mentioned the TiVo Mini requires the next update so once that roll-out completes I would expect to hear more details.


Bad news as it looks like the Ceton Q DVR has essentially been cancelled.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/02/ceton-echo-delay-q-dvr-on-hold/

also, it says this:

*Echo Media Center extender is delayed slightly and the beta units have not yet gone out, Ceton still anticipates a release in time for the holiday season.*

Not good news either and I tend to wonder if any of this stuff will get released (including the Mini). Although, I guess with these potentially off the market, maybe it gives the Tivo mini a much better chance of getting released & actually seeing the light of day.


----------



## MichaelK

buscuitboy said:


> Bad news as it looks like the Ceton Q DVR has essentially been cancelled.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/02/ceton-echo-delay-q-dvr-on-hold/
> 
> also, it says this:
> 
> *Echo Media Center extender is delayed slightly and the beta units have not yet gone out, Ceton still anticipates a release in time for the holiday season.*
> 
> Not good news either and I tend to wonder if any of this stuff will get released (including the Mini). Although, I guess with these potentially off the market, maybe it gives the Tivo mini a much better chance of getting released & actually seeing the light of day.


not following.
what does any of that have to do with if TiVo launches the mini or not?


----------



## mr_smits

Any updates on the Mini?


----------



## innocentfreak

No and some are guessing early 2013 at this point.


----------



## jrtroo

Other than this post, I have not seen any such guessing.


----------



## mr_smits

That is unfortunate but it's better the Mini appears well baked than half baked. I'm holding off on upgrading a S3 until the Mini appears.


----------



## innocentfreak

jrtroo said:


> Other than this post, I have not seen any such guessing.


There was discussion over on Dave Zatz's site on one of his posts.

The new Mini supposedly needs the next update to work. The updates usually soak for around 2-3 weeks before mass launch. If the update launches this month then we should see mass rollout by Thanksgiving. TiVo is still saying the update will be this fall and we know the update is in testing. TiVo tends not to release anything after Thanksgiving due to limited staff because of the holidays. This then puts us at January and CES. TiVo would probably then have the Mini on display with the Series 5 behind closed doors under NDA. After CES and all the press releases die down, they would announce the Mini with price and a release data about a month later or in mid to the end of February.


----------



## sofakng

I sure hope they announce the Mini soon and give a date, even if it's a ways off.

Right now I'm moving from Dish Network to Comcast (with a TiVo Premiere XL4) but I want to connect my kitchen TV to the TiVo. I could buy a used premiere with lifetime and then multi-room streaming but that's a waste if the mini comes out... (plus a TiVo is quite large so I'd love for a small mini at least for the kitchen)


----------



## spaldingclan

I just want a mini for my bedroom. We watch maybe 10% of our tv viewing in there so a full blown tivo would be a waste of upfront purchase and monthly cost too.


----------



## markp99

spaldingclan said:


> I just want a mini for my bedroom. We watch maybe 10% of our tv viewing in there so a full blown tivo would be a waste of upfront purchase and monthly cost too.


This is exactly my thought. I have an old S3 sitting idle, but would much prefer the form factor of the mini in my bedroom setting. Would be much less conspicuous.

We're still waiting to see cost/subscription info.


----------



## Dan203

I read somewhere that TiVo might hold off the consumer release of the Mini because of the whole live tuner XL4 requirement thing. Could have been blatant speculation, but it makes sense. The consumer confusion over it requiring an XL4 and having to actually steal the tuner for good, and not just when you're using the Mini, could get them a lot of bad press. They might be better served to just hold off until they work out dynamic tuner allocation and it works with all Premiere units.

Dan


----------



## markp99

Dynamic tuner allocation :up: - I hope this becomes a reality, though I cannot say I have seen all 4 of my Tuners actually simultaneously recording scheduled content (i.e., non-suggestions stuff).


----------



## sbiller

markp99 said:


> Dynamic tuner allocation :up: - I hope this becomes a reality, though I cannot say I have seen all 4 of my Tuners actually simultaneously recording scheduled content (i.e., non-suggestions stuff).


It will become a reality. There is no doubt in my mind. Their competitors do it so they need it.


----------



## markp99

sbiller said:


> It will become a reality. There is no doubt in my mind. Their competitors do it so they need it.


Right. They'd be limiting their potential user base to the subset of 4-tuner devices. Support for a 2-tuner TiVo with dynamic allocation would be a very good thing. Though, likelihood of conflict management could be a big deal.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I pretty much agree with innocentfreak's assessment.

Tivo hasn't said a peep publically about holding off until the dynamic tuner thing was resolved (I've been paying obsessive attention), so unless it came from an official channel or a beta source it's just speculation.

I have to think getting it out before the holiday is a priority if at all possible. With the fall software still targeting mid-to-late October (as of 3 weeks ago), this gives them a window before hitting the Thanksgiving wall. Unless the Mini's own software is just not where it needs to be yet, and/or they reacted to the early feedback on the whole live TV tuner thing.

6 weeks to Thanksgiving. Things will either start moving pretty soon, or potentially not at all until early 2013.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I pretty much agree with innocentfreak's assessment.
> 
> Tivo hasn't said a peep publically about holding off until the dynamic tuner thing was resolved (I've been paying obsessive attention), so unless it came from official channels or a beta it was just forum speculation.
> 
> I have to think getting it out before the holiday is a priority if at all possible. With the fall software still targeting mid-to-late October (as of 3 weeks ago), this gives them a window before hitting the Thanksgiving wall. Unless the Mini's own software is just not where it needs to be yet, and/or they reacted to the early feedback on the whole live TV tuner thing.
> 
> 6 weeks to Thanksgiving. Things will either start moving pretty soon, or likely not at all until early 2013.


You'll notice all the recent deal announcements (e.g. Mediacom) have an early 2013 timeframe. In my view its not a coincidence. I think we may see a launch of the Mini to one or two MSOs before the holidays but the general availability will be Q1-13.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> You'll notice all the recent deal announcements (e.g. Mediacom) have an early 2013 timeframe. In my view its not a coincidence. I think we may see a launch of the Mini to one or two MSOs before the holidays but the general availability will be Q1-13.


That is true too, yes. But retail also got the Stream first, if that means anything at all (possibly not). And how much does the 2013 timing have to do with the Pace box availability rather than the Mini?

History and circumstantial evidence points both ways making this tough to guess. But 2013 wouldn't be at all surprising... sadly, because BIGJIM WANT!


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> I read somewhere that TiVo might hold off the consumer release of the Mini because of the whole live tuner XL4 requirement thing.


Do you think the Premiere 4 (non XL) would also be able to handle the mini requirement if there is one? I know my next Tivo will be one of the 4 tuner variety, but which one I get depends on the Mini requirements now and in the future.


----------



## cherry ghost

mr_smits said:


> Do you think the Premiere 4 (non XL) would also be able to handle the mini requirement if there is one?


yes


----------



## jmpage2

I want this, like yesterday. Three of them in fact.

I'm okay with one tuner being "stolen" for the bedroom Mini, the other ones would primarily be used for nothing other then streaming recorded shows.

Here's to hoping this doesn't slip out past 2012.


----------



## aaronwt

I wanted this yesterday too. Just like I wanted the Stream. But since they are dragging their feet with Android support for the Stream, I'll be picking up a Slingbox 350 on Sunday. Since TiVo doesn't want my money I'm sure Slingbox will take it.

So I hope they don't drag their feet with the Mini as well. My only reason for getting the Mini is so I can dump one cable card and finally get down to only using two cable card. At one point I had eight of them.


----------



## mr_smits

It is odd that Android support is lagging. It's not 2009 anymore when the iPhone was still king of the hill. Support for the majority platform should be present _at launch_.

Market share in the U.S. is:

52% Android
33% Apple
10% Blackberry
4% Microsoft.


----------



## jmpage2

I'm sure they want to bring support for Android devices... however it is far easier to develop apps for iOS than for Android... at my company the Android apps are taking far longer to develop and are much more challenging because of fragmentation of the Android platform. Our developers say, by comparison, that developing apps for iOS is a "breeze".

So, Android will come it will just take a while. TiVo might also have market data that indicates that for THEIR customers, iOS is the majority platform.


----------



## Dan203

FYI a Slingbox isn't a good replacement for a Stream. A Slingbox is like a video cable that works over a network. It connects to the A/V ports on the TiVo and when you use it you hijack that TiVo completely. Also because of the way it buffers there is a huge lag on control that makes skipping commercials nearly impossible. The Stream is like having a Mini attached to an iPad. It streams the show digitally from the TiVo so it does not interrupt the original boxes operation and the controls are also all digital so skipping commercials works exactly as expected. (There is a slight lag due to the network, but it's minimal)

For streaming inside the home the Stream is a MUCH better option. The only advantage to the Slingbox is it's ability to stream over the internet. Also don't forget the Stream has the ability to download shows as well. Although the utility of that depends on how abusive your cable provider is with the copy protection flag. 

Dan


----------



## jmpage2

aaronwt said:


> I wanted this yesterday too. Just like I wanted the Stream. But since they are dragging their feet with Android support for the Stream, I'll be picking up a Slingbox 350 on Sunday. Since TiVo doesn't want my money I'm sure Slingbox will take it.
> 
> So I hope they don't drag their feet with the Mini as well. My only reason for getting the Mini is so I can dump one cable card and finally get down to only using one cable card. At one point I had eight of them.


Good luck with the Slingbox. I hardly ever use mine because the controls are very laggy and whenever I'm away from my home network the quality is extremely hit and miss.


----------



## mr_smits

jmpage2 said:


> I'm sure they want to bring support for Android devices... however it is far easier to develop apps for iOS than for Android...


I agree that Android support for Stream is coming, and I understand that developing for Android is more difficult than for iOS. However, there are Android developers that are experienced that can accomplish the development requirements of Tivo. It seems like it is more of a prioritization issue rather than finding skilled Android developers.



jmpage2 said:


> TiVo might also have market data that indicates that for THEIR customers, iOS is the majority platform.


You may be right. Targeting Apple products first may be a good strategy for keeping existing customers (that may have more Apple products), but if the goal is to expand their reach and gain new customers then it is a poor long-term strategy since the market share numbers indicate an important trend.


----------



## aaronwt

jmpage2 said:


> Good luck with the Slingbox. I hardly ever use mine because the controls are very laggy and whenever I'm away from my home network the quality is extremely hit and miss.


I've been using a HavaHD for several years with good results. With the Slingbox 350 that will get me HD. So I already know what to expect. I don't use it often but when I do it comes in handy. For home use I'll have the redskins game on my tablet while I'm playing some Xbox 360. So with the Slingbox it will be in HD which should be a nice improvement. It should look goodon the fire HD. I wanted the Stream but I can't use it now so the Slingbox 350 is coming out at just the right time for me.


----------



## buscuitboy

jmpage2 said:


> Good luck with the Slingbox. I hardly ever use mine because the controls are very laggy and whenever I'm away from my home network the quality is extremely hit and miss.


 I hope these new line of Slingboxes are better than the older ones. I had one and it was junk. I had similar lagging problems too. Sporadically worked within my home and had to always be reset to work. Initially, I couldn't get it to work outside my home either. I think it had to do with port forwarding within my home network's router, but I didn't have time to investigate it further so I just boxed it up & returned the whole unit for a refund.

I have briefly looked into the Vulkano devices as an alternative to Slingbox. I wonder how much better/worse they are.


----------



## thyname

aaronwt said:


> I wanted this yesterday too. Just like I wanted the Stream. But since they are dragging their feet with Android support for the Stream, I'll be picking up a Slingbox 350 on Sunday. Since TiVo doesn't want my money I'm sure Slingbox will take it.
> 
> So I hope they don't drag their feet with the Mini as well. My only reason for getting the Mini is so I can dump one cable card and finally get down to only using one cable card. At one point I had eight of them.


You are better off switching to iPhone or iPad and getting the Stream than keeping your Android and getting a slingbox!


----------



## thyname

Let us assume for a moment that Tivo Mini will NOT have wireless support. How do I know whether my coax cabling in the house supports MoCA? My home is built in 1987. Unfortunately I don't have an ethernet port in my bedroom.

Assuming that I can have MoCA, I have read that the new Premiere 4 has Moca support built in. Does it mean that I simply need a MoCA adapter for the bedroom tv?


----------



## Kingpcgeek

I can't use MoCA because my TV connections are behind an amplifier, and my cable modem connection is not. I use a couple of AV500 Ethernet over power adapters. The Stream and my TiVo think its a wired connection so the Stream works fine. I can stream a Blu-Ray rip over the connection so it is fast and stable enough for anything a TiVo would want to stream to a Mini.


----------



## tbielowicz

thyname said:


> Let us assume for a moment that Tivo Mini will NOT have wireless support. How do I know whether my coax cabling in the house supports MoCA? My home is built in 1987. Unfortunately I don't have an ethernet port in my bedroom.
> 
> Assuming that I can have MoCA, I have read that the new Premiere 4 has Moca support built in. Does it mean that I simply need a MoCA adapter for the bedroom tv?


It will more than likely not have Wireless support just as the Stream does not. I guess the possible bandwidth, lag and/or connection issues would be the reason.

MoCA will work on any Coax that can send a TV signal today, so they claim. Overall this is a great technology, but hasn't taken off since Ethernet powerline adapters seem to be more accepted. Not sure why.

If the device is MOCA capable then you can connect right from the COAX to the unit (Mini, Premeir, etc...) You will need one adapter connected to your cable line and router. If you have MOCA enabled devices, no other adapters are needed.

This link will explain.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1145636/actiontec-mi424wr-a-cheap-moca-bridge-for-all

If you can get the Netgear units, MCAB1001, they seemed to be the best available but are discountinued.

BTW - MOCA tends to be faster and more reliable than Ethernet over power lines. Plus you need an adapter at each device.


----------



## jmpage2

If MoCa does not pan out then Ethernet power adapters are probably the next best option. Worst case you can get an Ethernet to Wi-Fi gaming adapter and give it a try. Generally speaking wireless is not reliable enough for good streaming of HD video content.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

thyname said:


> Let us assume for a moment that Tivo Mini will NOT have wireless support. How do I know whether my coax cabling in the house supports MoCA? My home is built in 1987. Unfortunately I don't have an ethernet port in my bedroom.
> 
> Assuming that I can have MoCA, I have read that the new Premiere 4 has Moca support built in. Does it mean that I simply need a MoCA adapter for the bedroom tv?


The Mini won't work wirelessly unless it's connected to a wireless bridge of some sort. I'd strongly recommend a wireless-N bridge if you had to go this route.

Since the Mini and Premiere 4 both have built-in MoCA support, that is more ideal.

In general terms, MoCA will work as long as your home's coax cabling all meets together with splitters. Chances are it does. The signal will go up and down the splitters and the boxes will find each other. If there is a signal amp somewhere in between the boxes, that would have to be removed or replaced with a new one that passes through MoCA signals.

To light up your house with MoCA, you would install a MoCA adapter ($50 on Tivo's site) where your router and cable modem are located (there are instructions on how to connect the 3 together).

I also always recommend using a POE (point of entry) filter if you use MoCA. They're $9 on Tivo's website. Place it before the house's main splitter to keep the MoCA signal strong and in your own home. No biggie if you know where the cable enters the home.


----------



## thyname

tbielowicz said:


> It will more than likely not have Wireless support just as the Stream does not. I guess the possible bandwidth, lag and/or connection issues would be the reason.
> 
> MoCA will work on any Coax that can send a TV signal today, so they claim. Overall this is a great technology, but hasn't taken off since Ethernet powerline adapters seem to be more accepted. Not sure why.
> 
> If the device is MOCA capable then you can connect right from the COAX to the unit (Mini, Premeir, etc...) You will need one adapter connected to your cable line and router. If you have MOCA enabled devices, no other adapters are needed.
> 
> This link will explain.
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1145636/actiontec-mi424wr-a-cheap-moca-bridge-for-all
> 
> If you can get the Netgear units, MCAB1001, they seemed to be the best available but are discountinued.
> 
> BTW - MOCA tends to be faster and more reliable than Ethernet over power lines. Plus you need an adapter at each device.


Thank you for your reply. I found this on Tivo's website:

[media]http://www.tivo.com/assets/images/mytivo/howto/MoCA/2a.jpg[/media]

It looks like I would only need one adapter at the bedroom where Mini will be located.

All this assuming that my coax wiring is compatible with MoCA

EDIT: The image link above gave the wrong chart. Here is the full link: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/howto/moca.html?WT.z_links=moca_vanity

Also, the above is if I get a new Premier 4. Those come with built-in MoCA bridge support.

AND, if the Mini comes with built-in MoCA support, just like the Premiere 4, no MoCA adapter will be needed!


----------



## Jonathan_S

thyname said:


> Also, the above is if I get a new Premier 4. Those come with built-in MoCA bridge support.
> 
> AND, if the Mini comes with built-in MoCA support, just like the Premiere 4, no MoCA adapter will be needed!


I believe the info that was released is that the Mini does come with built-in MoCa support. However, unlike the Premier 4/4XL, it will not act like a MoCa _bridge_.

So you could use the Premiere 4 to bridge from ethernet to MoCa, then connect the Mini via MoCa. (The only thing you couldn't do it hook up other ethernet devices near the Mini to its ethernet port to get _them_ on your network)


----------



## thyname

Jonathan_S said:


> So you could use the Premiere 4 to bridge from ethernet to MoCa, then connect the Mini via MoCa.


So, would I need a MoCA adapter to hook my Mini in my bedroom or not?

I am assuming no adapter is needed where the Premiere 4 is located (close to the cable modem and router)


----------



## Dan203

thyname said:


> So, would I need a MoCA adapter to hook my Mini in my bedroom or not?
> 
> I am assuming no adapter is needed where the Premiere 4 is located (close to the cable modem and router)


Not for the mini itself. However if you have other IP based devices in the bedroom then they would require a MoCa adapter because the Mini does not function as a bridge. The Premiere 4 however does function as a bridge so you can connect it to a MoCa network and connect other devices to it's Ethernet connection and it will convert the data between the two.

Dan


----------



## Jonathan_S

thyname said:


> So, would I need a MoCA adapter to hook my Mini in my bedroom or not?
> 
> I am assuming no adapter is needed where the Premiere 4 is located (close to the cable modem and router)


No, from what we've been told, the Mini doesn't need a seperate MoCa adaptor.

You'd only need an adaptor in the bedroom if you had some _additional_ ethernet device there that you wanted to connect over MoCa.
Edit: Or what Dan said. (Didn't refresh and see his post before replying)


----------



## thyname

Thank you all for your knowledgeable replies and information!

It looks like the solution for me would be to get the Premiere 4 ( I currently have the two-tuner Premiere) and the Mini for my bedroom. Happy to learn that the purchase of a MoCA adapter is not required in this setup. I need the 4 tuners anyway.

Thanks again!


----------



## aaronwt

thyname said:


> You are better off switching to iPhone or iPad and getting the Stream than keeping your Android and getting a slingbox!


 That's not going to happen


----------



## aaronwt

buscuitboy said:


> I hope these new line of Slingboxes are better than the older ones. I had one and it was junk. I had similar lagging problems too. Sporadically worked within my home and had to always be reset to work. Initially, I couldn't get it to work outside my home either. I think it had to do with port forwarding within my home network, but I didn't have time to investigate it further so I just boxed it up & returned the whole unit for a refund.
> 
> I have briefly looked into the Vulkano devices as an alternative to Slingbox. I wonder how much better/worse they are.


I guess if i have any problems I'll still have a 60 day return period at Best Buy. I never had any issues with my Hava HD, so hopefully the SlingBox 350 will work well too. I certainly would hate to return it after having to buy the tablet and phone app.


----------



## Dan203

If you're main purpose is to stream inside the home then I'd hold out for the Android app and get a Stream. I don't think you'll be happy with the performance of the Slingbox for local streaming.

Dan


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> If you're main purpose is to stream inside the home then I'd hold out for the Android app and get a Stream. I don't think you'll be happy with the performance of the Slingbox for local streaming.
> 
> Dan


really? How bad is it? HAva HD worked great but it was only SD. But it streamed at up to 10Mb/s using MPEG2 over the local LAN to a PC. And to my phone and tablet it streamed at up to 1Mb/s using MPEG4 from the LAN as well as outside the home.

So will the Slingbox have issues with that? I figured since the box is being released in 2012 and has a newer chipset that it should be more efficient than my HavaHD I got 3.5 years ago. Which I think actually came out in 2007. So the hardware design is over five years old now.


----------



## Dan203

Quality is OK, but the lag is really annoying. There is a good 5 second delay between what is actually playing on the TiVo and what you're seeing in the app. That makes instant replay basically useless. Because when you hit the IR button it takes a second to send the IR command, then it takes 6 seconds for you to catch up to where the TiVo actually was when the button was pressed and then it just jumps back to basically the same place you were when you pushed the button originally. So you have to get into the habit of always pressing it twice, and even then you still have the 5 second delay between pressing the button and seeing the results on screen. FF and RW are completely impossible to use because by the time you see the point you want the TiVo has already gone past it for 5 seconds at 3x. 30 second skip works OK, but again the lag can make it hard to get back to the start of a program if you over shoot. Not to mention you're tying up the TiVo, so if you have anyone else in the house they can't watch it. 

The Stream is digital so it knows where you are in the program regardless of how much has been buffered. So when you tell it to IR it tells the TiVo to seek back (currentposition)-8 and the seek happens immediately. (there is a slight 1/2 second lag, but it's not where near as bad as the Slingbox) And because it uses the MRS protocol it doesn't tie up the TiVo so you can watch something on the tablet even if it's located on a TiVo someone else is currently using.

Dan


----------



## MichaelK

mr_smits said:


> That is unfortunate but it's better the Mini appears well baked than half baked. I'm holding off on upgrading a S3 until the Mini appears.


your join date doesn't indicate a newbie...

Not sure then why you think a delay from Tivo means it wont be half baked?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

MichaelK said:


> your join date doesn't indicate a newbie...
> 
> Not sure then why you think a delay from Tivo means it wont be half baked?


Heh. This is true. A delay wouldn't necessarily guarantee the dynamic tuner thing will be fixed by launch (until we hear otherwise).


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Quality is OK, but the lag is really annoying. There is a good 5 second delay between what is actually playing on the TiVo and what you're seeing in the app. That makes instant replay basically useless. Because when you hit the IR button it takes a second to send the IR command, then it takes 6 seconds for you to catch up to where the TiVo actually was when the button was pressed and then it just jumps back to basically the same place you were when you pushed the button originally. So you have to get into the habit of always pressing it twice, and even then you still have the 5 second delay between pressing the button and seeing the results on screen. FF and RW are completely impossible to use because by the time you see the point you want the TiVo has already gone past it for 5 seconds at 3x. 30 second skip works OK, but again the lag can make it hard to get back to the start of a program if you over shoot. Not to mention you're tying up the TiVo, so if you have anyone else in the house they can't watch it.
> 
> The Stream is digital so it knows where you are in the program regardless of how much has been buffered. So when you tell it to IR it tells the TiVo to seek back (currentposition)-8 and the seek happens immediately. (there is a slight 1/2 second lag, but it's not where near as bad as the Slingbox) And because it uses the MRS protocol it doesn't tie up the TiVo so you can watch something on the tablet even if it's located on a TiVo someone else is currently using.
> 
> Dan


That is the lag locally?? On the Hava HD that was the lag when remotely viewing but it was much less when viewing from the LAN.

Anyway for me this isn't an issue since I don't normally rewind since it's something like the news in the background or a redskins game in the background. With the HavaHD if I used a PC, it can record the content as streaming so you can always back up if you want. Does the Sling allow you to record the content as streaming when using a PC.

I really don't have the option of waiting since I want to use my current FireHD for more things. If TiVo would announce a date for Android support for the Stream, and it was by Thanksgiving, then I would wait. But if it ends up being 2013 then there is really no point for me to wait. Since I can get some use from the SLingBox now. Worst case I can return the SlingBOx 350 withing sixty days and I would have to eat the cost of the two apps I need for the tablets and the phone. Or I sell the SlingBox350 if it's that bad and continue using my HAva HD for outside the home and the Stream inside.

There is no question though, if the Stream would have already had Android support, I would not even be considering Slingbox 350.


----------



## Dan203

The app itself does have it's own buffer, so you could use that. However the controls for it aren't very intuitive so it's not convenient. If you can't wait then try it and see for yourself. At least they lowered the price of the app to $15 so it's not quite as bad to get it working on all your devices. (I paid $30 for the iPad version last year)

Dan


----------



## aaronwt

I got the SLingbox 350 yesterday. The app for my cell and Kindle FireHD work very well. Unfortunately Amazon hasn't updated their tablet app so it seems the same as the cell phone app.

The PC app sucks though. I tried it with both Chrome and Internet explorer on several PCs and it always had sync issues after a few minutes of playback. The HAvaHD never had those issues on the PC even though it's bitrates were still around 10mb/s.(but MPEG2 and SD)

Another thing I didn't like about the Sling was that you could only stream to one device at a time, whether a PC or tablet or phone. With the Hava HD it could stream to one app or remote device and also stream to several PCs on the LAN concurrently.

The Sling350 IR is nice since I don't need to use a blaster attached to a wire and I like how a guide comes up to change the channel. Which works well on the TiVo. As long as you don't have another TiVo in the room since it uses remote code zero. 

I would say overall the Slingbox 350 is nice. I just don't think it's really worth the $180 price. I only payed $65 for my HavaHD from Woot 3.5 years ago. That was a great deal.

I do wish the stream would have been available for Android devices. No doubt the Stream would work best for local Playback. The 350 does excel with remote playback though from a tablet or phone. And the HavaHD excells with playback on a PC remotely and locally since it uses it's own program instead of a web browser for playback like the Sling Box 350 does.

At least the 350 has a pass through for the inputs so I can still keep my HavaHD connected to the same TiVo with component and stereo cables.(Although mayby the HavaHD has this too? I haven't looked at the back of it it years)


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> The Sling350 IR is nice since I don't need to use a blaster attached to a wire and I like how a guide comes up to change the channel. Which works well on the TiVo. As long as you don't have another TiVo in the room since it uses remote code zero.


Assuming the 350 uses the same remotes as the Slingbox Pro-HD, you can select a TiVo with alternate remote codes so you don't have that issue.


----------



## mr_smits

MichaelK said:


> your join date doesn't indicate a newbie...
> 
> Not sure then why you think a delay from Tivo means it wont be half baked?


Very true. I'm hoping that this string of positive updates continues and whoever was responsible for the initial Premiere crappiness is not involved with planning now. The update this year has been excellent. Streaming from room to room between Premieres is a feature I use daily.


----------



## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> Assuming the 350 uses the same remotes as the Slingbox Pro-HD, you can select a TiVo with alternate remote codes so you don't have that issue.


thanks, I'll need to check into it. In the setup I selected a Premiere and that is what it came up with.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> thanks, I'll need to check into it. In the setup I selected a Premiere and that is what it came up with.


In the past, I've set it up as a TiVo Series3 which has listings for all the remote codes. The only difference is the missing 4 color buttons which I never need from my Slingbox anyways.


----------



## aaronwt

rainwater said:


> In the past, I've set it up as a TiVo Series3 which has listings for all the remote codes. The only difference is the missing 4 color buttons which I never need from my Slingbox anyways.


Did it still have the Zoom button?


----------



## herbman

aaronwt said:


> Did it still have the Zoom button?


I use my series 3-era glo remote with my premiere every day. Aspect works as zoom.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> Did it still have the Zoom button?


It has the "Aspect" button which I believe is the same.


----------



## wmcbrine

"Window" (Series 2, where it did nothing), "Aspect" (Series 3), and "Zoom" (Series 4) all send the same code.


----------



## brentil

I'm actually more interested in waiting for "media extender" type updates for other devices to use a Stream with over the Mini now. The last TiVo Survey focused on what other devices we want to see Stream support on and the 3 major consoles were all options. I already have Xboxs on all my other TVs where I had wanted to put a Mini.


----------



## Dan203

If they do a Windows 8 app then it should be relatively easy to port it to Xbox. They're trying to standardize everything on the Metro UI and the same basic API.

Also I heard a rumor somewhere that Apple is working on allowing iOS apps to run on the AppleTV so that might be an option as well.

Dan


----------



## mr_smits

Any more rumors about the Tivo Mini? I was hoping Margaret would have provided another nugget of information...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

mr_smits said:


> Any more rumors about the Tivo Mini? I was hoping Margaret would have provided another nugget of information...


The latest tiny tidbit is from a new interview with Margret Schmidt, which brings us back to where we started... in that some people thought Tivo would wait to release the Mini until the tuner hijacking worked fully with 2-tuner boxes, but she confirms it's still intended to be an accessory for 4-tuner models (at least at first).

"Next up is TiVo Mini  connect it to a TV in another room in your house, and it can stream live TV and recordings from your 4-tuner TiVo Premiere DVR."

So no, nothing really new yet.


----------



## jmpage2

If they don't have it out in the next week or two after the fall update rolls out it's unlikely they will release it this year.

Very tough to get excitement about a new product after the holiday season is in full swing.


----------



## jjd_87

There is a new screen in the options on the 4 tuner units that refers you to this link. Spoiler: It mentions the mini!

http://www.tivo.com/help/wholehome


----------



## macery

jjd_87 said:


> There is a new screen in the options on the 4 tuner units that refers you to this link. Spoiler: It mentions the mini!
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/help/wholehome


Nice catch! Except I hate the part:

NOTE: You can stream recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere series box, but you will be unable to set up your TiVo Mini without a 4-tuner TiVo DVR.

Time to buy a new TiVo lol


----------



## aaronwt

But it also says


> IMPORTANT! If you have any issues using your TiVo Mini or setting up a host DVR, please contact your Cable provider for support.


Which would imply that this is only for a cable company supplied TiVo Mini and Premiere.


----------



## macery

True the wording is confusing. I assumed that line was more to say setting up the "host DVR" to get the channels you subscribe to. Hopefully we'll find out soon enough with the release of the mini


----------



## moyekj

Notice also they mention Pandora, Live365, YouTube apps, but not Netflix. Glad to see Pandora there but I'd definitely want Netflix too. Again may be taking the wording (or lack of) too literally and will have to wait until release to know for sure.


----------



## moyekj

macery said:


> Nice catch! Except I hate the part:
> 
> NOTE: You can stream recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere series box, but you will be unable to set up your TiVo Mini without a 4-tuner TiVo DVR.
> 
> Time to buy a new TiVo lol


 That confirms the earlier postings about this. However we don't know for sure if this indeed will be the final web page upon release so could be subject to change. I still say they should at least give you the option of not taking any tuner for live TV when setting up the Mini, such that all other functionality minus live TV is available, which would be fine to a lot more prospective buyers than requiring a 4 tuner unit to be available. Seems silly, for example, that you could setup a Mini initially taking a tuner, and then go back to your 4 tuner unit and disable tuner sharing completely you effectively end up with what I just described anyway.


----------



## waterchange

How does the Slingbox 350's picture quality compare to the Hava HD on your Kindle Fire on your local network? If you're not aware, the Vulkano android app will stream from your Hava HD.



aaronwt said:


> I got the SLingbox 350 yesterday. The app for my cell and Kindle FireHD work very well. Unfortunately Amazon hasn't updated their tablet app so it seems the same as the cell phone app.
> 
> The PC app sucks though. I tried it with both Chrome and Internet explorer on several PCs and it always had sync issues after a few minutes of playback. The HAvaHD never had those issues on the PC even though it's bitrates were still around 10mb/s.(but MPEG2 and SD)
> 
> Another thing I didn't like about the Sling was that you could only stream to one device at a time, whether a PC or tablet or phone. With the Hava HD it could stream to one app or remote device and also stream to several PCs on the LAN concurrently.
> 
> The Sling350 IR is nice since I don't need to use a blaster attached to a wire and I like how a guide comes up to change the channel. Which works well on the TiVo. As long as you don't have another TiVo in the room since it uses remote code zero.
> 
> I would say overall the Slingbox 350 is nice. I just don't think it's really worth the $180 price. I only payed $65 for my HavaHD from Woot 3.5 years ago. That was a great deal.
> 
> I do wish the stream would have been available for Android devices. No doubt the Stream would work best for local Playback. The 350 does excel with remote playback though from a tablet or phone. And the HavaHD excells with playback on a PC remotely and locally since it uses it's own program instead of a web browser for playback like the Sling Box 350 does.
> 
> At least the 350 has a pass through for the inputs so I can still keep my HavaHD connected to the same TiVo with component and stereo cables.(Although mayby the HavaHD has this too? I haven't looked at the back of it it years)


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> But it also says
> 
> Which would imply that this is only for a cable company supplied TiVo Mini and Premiere.


Agreed. This statement confirms what I've been hearing from multiple sources that the Mini is being released to cable operators first.


----------



## aaronwt

waterchange said:


> How does the Slingbox 350's picture quality compare to the Hava HD on your Kindle Fire on your local network? If you're not aware, the Vulkano android app will stream from your Hava HD.


Yes I have the Vulkano app that you can use with the HavaHD. Using the app on my cell phone and FireHD there is no comparison. The SlingBox picture quality blows away the picture quality of the Vulkano app whether on the LAN or viewing remotely.


----------



## jcthorne

macery said:


> Nice catch! Except I hate the part:
> 
> NOTE: You can stream recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere series box, but you will be unable to set up your TiVo Mini without a 4-tuner TiVo DVR.
> 
> Time to buy a new TiVo lol


I'd have done that a long time ago if the 4 tuner versions were not all strapped to comcrap for service.

Until they get a 4 tuner OTA capable premiere or the mini working with 2 tuner boxes, the whole concept is for CATV only. They might as well have just sold it to the MSOs rather than retail.


----------



## dave13077

Here is Dave Zatz's opinion:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-11/tivo-mini-ip-stb-delayed-until-2013/


----------



## jcthorne

Yep, I had figured that was coming. 2012 was running out of time and there were just too many 'issues' with the mini for a retail launch for the holidays.

Someday.....


----------



## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> I'd have done that a long time ago if the 4 tuner versions were not all strapped to comcrap for service.
> 
> Until they get a 4 tuner OTA capable premiere or the mini working with 2 tuner boxes, the whole concept is for CATV only. They might as well have just sold it to the MSOs rather than retail.


That would have sucked. I certainly have no desire to have to rent the DVR boxes from my cable company indefinitely and never be able to own them.


----------



## aaronwt

dave13077 said:


> Here is Dave Zatz's opinion:
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-11/tivo-mini-ip-stb-delayed-until-2013/


So another device that TiVo has that I am ready to spend the money on, but I can't because it either doesn't support Android(TiVo Stream) or has a delayed release.


----------



## buscuitboy

aaronwt said:


> That would have sucked. I certainly have no desire to have to rent the DVR boxes from my cable company indefinitely and never be able to own them.


Yea, and the cable Company DVR boxes I have used ALL suck big time compared to TiVo.



aaronwt said:


> So another device that TiVo has that I am ready to spend the money on, but I can't because it either doesn't support Android(TiVo Stream) or has a delayed release.


Yea, this is REALLY discouraging that the mini has been pushed back to 2013. I was REALLY hoping it would be released this year sometime. I'm now starting to think the 2013 holiday season is a much more realistic target date at this point.


----------



## moyekj

I'd rather they delay the release and have a product that works well at launch for a change, contrary to recent history. This business of releasing something half baked and then trying to fix it gradually afterwards is getting old.


----------



## mr_smits

moyekj said:


> I'd rather they delay the release and have a product that works well at launch for a change, contrary to recent history. This business of releasing something half baked and then trying to fix it gradually afterwards is getting old.


I agree - I prefer a Mini that works well out of the gate. The original release of the Premiere is still in my mind even though I wasn't a bleeding edge adopter (I think I bought it several months after it was released) it didn't feel finished because it wasn't ready.

I'm a bit anxious for the Mini release so I can decide whether it is worth it to keep my existing setup (two 2-tuner premieres and an HD box) or sell them all, buy a 4 tuner box and 2 minis. Depending on pricing, I'm still considering a 3rd option: waiting until the next model of the Premiere is released that hopefully has 6 tuners, built-in Streaming built in (with Android support ), and then buy 2 Minis for the other outlets.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

I posted this over in The Stream forum, but it could apply here.

_Took a survey from TiVo today with regards to the Stream. Some of the questions asked were would I be interested in watching Stream shows on other devices such as Roku, Apple TV, PC's and game consoles._

If I could stream content from my TiVo to a Roku via The Stream that would eliminate in my case the need for a Mini. I don't care about live TV, only recorded TV.


----------



## mr_smits

Kingpcgeek said:


> If I could stream content from my TiVo to a Roku via The Stream that would eliminate in my case the need for a Mini. I don't care about live TV, only recorded TV.


Roku serves as an alternate endpoint to the Tivo Mini for output to a TV? That sounds ... confusing. I guess it would be an app. I'm not a fan of all these separate boxes, so buying a Roku (despite it's great Netflix app) to use to Stream is not something I would do. It is unlikely I will even buy a Stream unless it is integrated into a Tivo. I don't want another box to plug in and maintain. I want Tivo to make it simple for me.

It would be great to Stream to PCs though.


----------



## atmuscarella

Kingpcgeek said:


> I posted this over in The Stream forum, but it could apply here.
> 
> _Took a survey from TiVo today with regards to the Stream. Some of the questions asked were would I be interested in watching Stream shows on other devices such as Roku, Apple TV, PC's and game consoles._
> 
> If I could stream content from my TiVo to a Roku via The Stream that would eliminate in my case the need for a Mini. I don't care about live TV, only recorded TV.


The main purpose of the "Steam" was to re-code the video (in real time so steaming works) into a format that ios devices could play. The current Premiere does not have enough horse power to do that.

If a Roku can play the native format of the video on the Premiere (MPEG 2 or 4) then there should be no need for any device between your Premiere and the Roku as no recoding is needed.


----------



## gonzotek

atmuscarella said:


> The main purpose of the "Steam" was to re-code the video (in real time so steaming works) into a format that ios devices could play. The current Premiere does not have enough horse power to do that.
> 
> If a Roku can play the native format of the video on the Premiere (MPEG 2 or 4) then there should be no need for any device between your Premiere and the Roku as no recoding is needed.


No MPEG2 on Rokus  (we've been bugging them about it for years...the chips they use should be capable of mpeg2 decoding, but that feature isn't enabled in their software, probably to save on licensing fees).


----------



## MichaelK

moyekj said:


> I'd rather they delay the release and have a product that works well at launch for a change, contrary to recent history. This business of releasing something half baked and then trying to fix it gradually afterwards is getting old.


and why do you think a delay means they will do it right?


----------



## TZR916

MINI QUESTIONS:
Does anyone know what inputs/outputs the mini will have?
Does it have LAN (wired and/or wireless)?
Does it have coax for MOCA?
Does my Elite have MOCA?
Is picture quality on the mini end dependent on type of connection to Elite- MOCA vs Ethernet vs Wifi?


----------



## moyekj

TZR916 said:


> MINI QUESTIONS:
> Does anyone know what inputs/outputs the mini will have?
> Does it have LAN (wired and/or wireless)?
> Does it have coax for MOCA?
> Does my Elite have MOCA?
> Is picture quality on the mini end dependent on type of connection to Elite- MOCA vs Ethernet vs Wifi?


 See a picture of the back plus description here:
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/








* coax - for MoCA
* component + composite A/V breakout ports
* HDMI
* USB - presumably for Slide remote or I/R extender
* Ethernet

WiFi is not built in and is highly discouraged and won't be supported by TiVo.

Since the box is essentially using MRS for video you won't get any picture degradation since it streams the original recording as is (no transcoding video on the fly).


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

TZR916 said:


> MINI QUESTIONS:
> Does anyone know what inputs/outputs the mini will have?
> Does it have LAN (wired and/or wireless)?
> Does it have coax for MOCA?
> Does my Elite have MOCA?
> Is picture quality on the mini end dependent on type of connection to Elite- MOCA vs Ethernet vs Wifi?


1. Component and AV are supported through dongles (presumably included), and HDMI. There is also a USB port.
2. Ethernet and MoCA. Wireless will not be officially supported.
3. Mini MoCA support: yes, built-in.
4: Yes, all 4-tuner Tivos have MoCA.
5: Tivo's video streams are bit-for-bit transfers. So the quality is dependent only on the quality of the recording and the robustness of your network. Since they "require" a wired connection, any such transfer will be more than fast enough.


----------



## buscuitboy

BigJimOutlaw said:


> 2. Ethernet and MoCA. Wireless will not be officially supported.


I figured wireless would not be "officially" supported, but I have a wireless ethernet bridge adapter connected to my Series 3 (OLED) & it works rather good for transferring titles from my Premieres as well as streaming Netflix.

Its a 54G wireless bridge adapter and basically plugs into the Series 3's ethernet port. Its only about 20ft from a wireless access point so its a pretty solid connection. While probably not encouraged, I would assume this could be done with the minis too. Would it work OK to stream live HD from a Premier? How much bandwidth is usually required to stream HD content via wireless.


----------



## aaronwt

buscuitboy said:


> I figured wireless would not be "officially" supported, but I have a wireless ethernet bridge adapter connected to my Series 3 (OLED) & it works rather good for transferring titles from my Premieres as well as streaming Netflix.
> 
> Its a 54G wireless bridge adapter and basically plugs into the Series 3's ethernet port. Its only about 20ft from a wireless access point so its a pretty solid connection. While probably not encouraged, I would assume this could be done with the minis too. Would it work OK to stream live HD from a Premier? How much bandwidth is usually required to stream HD content via wireless.


 Get a wireless N bridge and you would probably be fine. With my wireless N bridges, I will get identical speeds between Premieres as when using the wired portion of my network.(75Mb/s to 85Mb/s transfer rates between Premieres)

Otherwise wireless G is extremely slow. It works with the Series 3 OK because those boxes have slow transfer rates.


----------



## moyekj

buscuitboy said:


> Would it work OK to stream live HD from a Premier? How much bandwidth is usually required to stream HD content via wireless.


 You need at most 19 Mbps for HD mpeg2 shows (typically a lot less). 802.11g & certainly 802.11n can easily provide that kind of bandwidth, but the issue with wireless is being able to provide *sustained bandwidth* over long periods. Wireless is very susceptible to interference, so maintaining sufficiently error free packet transmission for a prolonged period (streaming a whole show) in some environments is just not possible. If you look at your router statistics and compare wireless to wired transmission errors you will always see wireless errors >> wired errors.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

What moyekj said. The bandwidth of HD recordings is normally between 12-18 mbps. SD recordings will be much less.

A good, robust 802.11n wireless network and adapter may work fine, but folks should make sure they can get enough sustained bandwidth from the router/adapters to prevent choppy or buffering video. (A sustained 18mbps or better.)


----------



## jmpage2

The problem with wireless is that if you have anyone who lives within 100 yards of you then the ability to have trouble free wireless is effectively out of your control.

You can get very good performance for a week, month, or year, followed by hit or miss performance due to other devices that conflict with the wireless spectrum that get "added" by people who live nearby you and cause problems.

It's a bummer that the Mini is delayed, but honestly if it's not ready then they are doing the right thing in holding off.

At this point though might be too little too late for TiVo. Things like the Stream and Mini should have been introduced over a year ago with this years cycle being integrating some of those capabilities into a Series-5 TiVo.

This 2-3 year model refresh cycle for TiVo is going to bite them in the ass... and hard.


----------



## mrizzo80

buscuitboy said:


> I figured wireless would not be "officially" supported, but I have a wireless ethernet bridge adapter connected to my Series 3 (OLED) & it works rather good for transferring titles from my Premieres as well as streaming Netflix.
> 
> Its a 54G wireless bridge adapter and basically plugs into the Series 3's ethernet port. Its only about 20ft from a wireless access point so its a pretty solid connection. While probably not encouraged, I would assume this could be done with the minis too. Would it work OK to stream live HD from a Premier? How much bandwidth is usually required to stream HD content via wireless.


I had a living room TiVo connected to a Wireless N bridge talking to a TiVo in my bedroom that used the TiVo-branded Wireless G adapter.

Streaming would *almost* work in real-time, but not quite. Maybe 95% of the throughput it needed.

I bought another cheap Wireless N router (that I put in bridge-mode) for the bedroom TiVo and sold the G Adapter on eBay. No more streaming issues. I didn't get the huge throughput jump I was expecting going from G to N... probably went from 12.5mbps to maybe ~30mbps; but it's plenty to ensure an uninterrupted HD stream.

As with any wireless environment, your mileage may vary.

ETA: I would check your Network Settings to see the Transfer speed you are getting when you copy shows from TiVo1 to TiVo2; your Wireless G environment may be sufficient.


----------



## jano18

I am getting a little impatient waiting for the Mini to come out. I am debating just buying a 320GB Premiere w/lifetime during the current sale. It would be for my bedroom where it will get minimal use, since I primarily use my XL4 w/lifetime in my living room. I could be more patient if Tivo would just answer a few questions about this upcoming device. 

My questions would be in this order: 
1) Will there be any type of service charge to use the Mini?
2) How much will the box cost?
3) When will it be available for sale to the public?
4) Can it be controlled via the remote app &/or IP?

I am itching to ditch my Comcast box to get another Tivo, but I think I might regret it if I don't hold out for the Mini. Hopefully we will hear something soon!


----------



## jmpage2

jano18 said:


> I am getting a little impatient waiting for the Mini to come out. I am debating just buying a 320GB Premiere w/lifetime during the current sale. It would be for my bedroom where it will get minimal use, since I primarily use my XL4 w/lifetime in my living room. I could be more patient if Tivo would just answer a few questions about this upcoming device.
> 
> My questions would be in this order:
> 1) Will there be any type of service charge to use the Mini?
> 2) How much will the box cost?
> 3) When will it be available for sale to the public?
> 4) Can it be controlled via the remote app &/or IP?
> 
> I am itching to ditch my Comcast box to get another Tivo, but I think I might regret it if I don't hold out for the Mini. Hopefully we will hear something soon!


The only people who MIGHT have answers to your questions are under NDA. I have resigned myself that it will be March-May when the Mini is likely to come out.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jano18 said:


> 4) Can it be controlled via the remote app &/or IP?


App control is expected to come to the Preview in the spring update. The Mini may mirror this schedule if its out yet. (My guess.)


----------



## zubinh

One speculative question about the mini if anyone knows. I have an XL4. If I get two minis, does that mean that at all times 2 tuners will be "reserved" for the minis even if the minis are not in use? Or is it smart enough to realize that the minis are off and all 4 tuners can be used on the XL4. Thank you!


----------



## mr_smits

Great question. I think we are still waiting for all the details.


----------



## djwilso

I would really like to know the answer to that as well as it would determine whether I would purchase a Mini to replace my Series 3.

Dynamically releasing the tuner when no one is watching would be the smart way to design it.


----------



## aaronwt

And maybe that is the reason they decided to delay the release. To get dynamic tuner allocation incorporated into the software.


----------



## moyekj

zubinh said:


> One speculative question about the mini if anyone knows. I have an XL4. If I get two minis, does that mean that at all times 2 tuners will be "reserved" for the minis even if the minis are not in use? Or is it smart enough to realize that the minis are off and all 4 tuners can be used on the XL4. Thank you!


 Based on information we had on initial plans for Mini deployment you would have to manually specify on your XL4 how many tuners you wanted to dedicate to Minis, and you could choose 0,1 or 2 tuners. Whatever number you choose to dedicate to Minis are not useable anymore for XL4 recordings. Obviously the early reaction to this by this forum was very negative and perhaps that is one reason why the Mini release is delayed, so that TiVo can work on dynamic tuner allocation where tuners are still available to the host when not in use by Minis for live TV. I still hope even if there is dynamic tuner allocation in place at launch that one has the option to allocate 0 tuners to Minis still.


----------



## TivoQueensDad

djwilso said:


> Dynamically releasing the tuner when no one is watching would be the smart way to design it.


The problem with this is what happens if 4 shows are scheduled to record and you suck away a tuner. What I would think should happen is your "live" show on the mini should get an on screen warning 2-5 minutes before the scheduled recording with an option to cancel a recording or stop watching the "live" show.


----------



## jmpage2

aaronwt said:


> And maybe that is the reason they decided to delay the release. To get dynamic tuner allocation incorporated into the software.


I agree. TiVo probably had a combination of problems including software maturity as well as consumer confusion over this new box and which TiVo models it would work with.

It is much, much smarter to spend another six to twelve months getting it right... even if it is frustrating to those of us in the market for this.

I applaud TiVo's decision to avoid releasing another 1/2 baked product, but I'm very disappointed that their technical capabilities have not improved over the past year. Pretty much anything they develop right now is late, lacking and increasingly irrelevant.


----------



## slowbiscuit

TivoQueensDad said:


> The problem with this is what happens if 4 shows are scheduled to record and you suck away a tuner. What I would think should happen is your "live" show on the mini should get an on screen warning 2-5 minutes before the scheduled recording with an option to cancel a recording or stop watching the "live" show.


This is no different than the warnings you get today if you were watching live recently on all tuners, so you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to implement for the Mini. Obviously there's more to it than what we think or they would have done dynamic allocation from the beginning.


----------



## L David Matheny

TivoQueensDad said:


> The problem with this is what happens if 4 shows are scheduled to record and you suck away a tuner. What I would think should happen is your "live" show on the mini should get an on screen warning 2-5 minutes before the scheduled recording with an option to cancel a recording or stop watching the "live" show.


Yes. The Mini should have a top-level status/menu screen analogous to TiVo Central. If you leave the Mini sitting on that screen, it would (after a few minutes) deallocate any live tuner that it had been using. That screen could list each TiVo available on the network to allow browsing their My Shows listings and playing a recording, and it might also allow choosing live TV within each TiVo's submenu, which would request a tuner from that particular TiVo.

But it would be slicker to have just one live TV choice in the top menu, which would poll all available TiVos to find an unused tuner, requesting one from whichever unit has the most free tuners or whichever promises to have a free tuner longest. While the user is watching live TV, background polling of the TiVos on the network might even allow for live tuner duties to be handed off from one TiVo to another as necessary, although the programming required to do that transparently might be more trouble than it's worth.


----------



## moyekj

L David Matheny said:


> Yes. The Mini should have a top-level status/menu screen analogous to TiVo Central. If you leave the Mini sitting on that screen, it would (after a few minutes) deallocate any live tuner that it had been using. That screen could list each TiVo available on the network to allow browsing their My Shows listings and playing a recording, and it might also allow choosing live TV within each TiVo's submenu, which would request a tuner from that particular TiVo.
> 
> But it would be slicker to have just one live TV choice in the top menu, which would poll all available TiVos to find an unused tuner, requesting one from whichever unit has the most free tuners or whichever promises to have a free tuner longest. While the user is watching live TV, background polling of the TiVos on the network might even allow for live tuner duties to be handed off from one TiVo to another as necessary, although the programming required to do that transparently might be more trouble than it's worth.


 Dealing with 1 host/Mini combination is complicated enough. I highly doubt TiVo will even attempt to look at multiple hosts on your network for a free tuner. i.e. I think you will still have to dedicate a host to a Mini for live TV purposes and it may very well be it will have to be a 4-tuner unit, at least for initial release.


----------



## L David Matheny

moyekj said:


> Dealing with 1 host/Mini combination is complicated enough. I highly doubt TiVo will even attempt to look at multiple hosts on your network for a free tuner. i.e. I think you will still have to dedicate a host to a Mini for live TV purposes and it may very well be it will have to be a 4-tuner unit, at least for initial release.


But surely if TiVo is going to handle dynamic tuner allocation (which many people seem to think they will), the first option I mentioned shouldn't tax their programming staff unduly. A tuner would be requested from a specific TiVo when you select live TV within the submenu for that particular unit (instead of selecting a recording). Then when you later back out to the top-level menu (or maybe just back up and select a recording to play), the live tuner could be deallocated. Unless TiVo just gives up on dynamic allocation, how could it be done more simply?


----------



## mr_smits

I think Tivo will want to preserve their traditional tuner box revenue and only permit a Mini connected to one regular box. However, it would be great if the option would be:

2 tuner Premiere = no mini
4 tuner Premiere = 1 mini
6 tuner future box = 2 or 3 minis

Really I cannot see several mini's attaching to a 4 tuner Premiere, but maybe Tivo will surprise us all.


----------



## Dan203

I believe there was a review or something somewhere that showed a 4 tuner box with the option to dedicate 0, 1 or 2 tuners to remote streaming. Which seems to indicate that they will allow at least 2 Minis to be attached to a 4 tuner box.

As for tuner allocation from multiple TiVos I doubt it will work that way. The info we've seen indicates that the Mini will require a "host" and it will basically be a remote view of that host. It did say it could stream from other TiVos on the network, but that is likely done through the standard MRS interface. Most of the core functionality, i.e. scheduling recordings, managing season passes, etc..., will likely only apply to the host. I guess they could add some sort of host selection screen to the Mini, like the iOS app, but even so you would still only be controlling one TiVo at a time. It wouldn't dynamically choose the best one for the task. That would be very difficult and potentially very slow. 

My ideal setup would be a 6 tuner box, with a few Minis spread around the house AND the ability to setup users so that each member of the family could log in and only see the shows's they requested to record. There could be a user priority list, like the SP priority list now, and if there is a conflict between users it would always record the highest user's show first. 

Dan


----------



## overFEDEXed

Dan203 said:


> I believe there was a review or something somewhere that showed a 4 tuner box with the option to dedicate 0, 1 or 2 tuners to remote streaming. Which seems to indicate that they will allow at least 2 Minis to be attached to a 4 tuner box.
> 
> As for tuner allocation from multiple TiVos I doubt it will work that way. The info we've seen indicates that the Mini will require a "host" and it will basically be a remote view of that host. It did say it could stream from other TiVos on the network, but that is likely done through the standard MRS interface. Most of the core functionality, i.e. scheduling recordings, managing season passes, etc..., will likely only apply to the host. I guess they could add some sort of host selection screen to the Mini, like the iOS app, but even so you would still only be controlling one TiVo at a time. It wouldn't dynamically choose the best one for the task. That would be very difficult and potentially very slow.
> 
> My ideal setup would be a 6 tuner box, with a few Minis spread around the house AND the ability to setup users so that each member of the family could log in and only see the shows's they requested to record. There could be a user priority list, like the SP priority list now, and if there is a conflict between users it would always record the highest user's show first.
> 
> Dan


Dan or anybody else,
Why do you think that TiVo went ahead and put the Tuner Allocation option in with the last software update?

I'm just curious.

Thanks


----------



## button1066

If a TiVo Mini is streaming live TV from a TiVo over a network how will it know when to stop? Would you have to turn the TiVo Mini off? If so that is a significant departure from normal TiVo operation. I suppose an alternative is that it will play the live show till it is over then stop streaming, requiring you to select the next show to watch live.

The problem is that it will be slowing down all your network traffic until specifically told it no longer needs to do so.

The more I read about the Mini the more pointless it seems. It doesn't surprise me that TiVo is not making a big deal of it for the retail market.


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## uw69

I wonder what it would have cost to have one tuner in a mini for live tv?


----------



## moyekj

overFEDEXed said:


> Dan or anybody else,
> Why do you think that TiVo went ahead and put the Tuner Allocation option in with the last software update?
> 
> I'm just curious.
> 
> Thanks


 Because by their original plans they were going to release the Mini before Christmas which required the host machine to have that option.


----------



## button1066

uw69 said:


> I wonder what it would have cost to have one tuner in a mini for live tv?


And a slot for a cable card? Plus the subscription to the cable company for the extra card?

What you are describing is called a 'TiVo' and is what I would personally buy instead of a TiVo Mini based on what I've heard of it so far.


----------



## CoxInPHX

uw69 said:


> I wonder what it would have cost to have one tuner in a mini for live tv?


Not really relevant TiVo should just sell the Preview at retail. Regardless it would mean another CableCARD and a Tuning Adapter for SDV systems, not really elegant.

SiliconDust and Windows Media Center already have dynamic tuner allocation so I can't imagine it is that hard to do. I believe Ceton also has it.


----------



## moyekj

button1066 said:


> If a TiVo Mini is streaming live TV from a TiVo over a network how will it know when to stop?


 Similar to SDV it will probably time out after some period of time with no interaction with the Mini (1 hour, 2hours?) and ask you if you are still watching and if no response exit live tv to screen saver mode.


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## button1066

moyekj said:


> Similar to SDV it will probably time out after some period of time with no interaction with the Mini (1 hour, 2hours?) and ask you if you are still watching and if no response exit live tv to screen saver mode.


What is SDV?

I'm not liking this timing out business because I like to play videogames online and if someone else in the house starts watching live TV on the Mini even for just a couple of minutes then that would be at least 1 or more hours of unnecessary network traffic slowing things down. I don't really know if the streaming video over ethernet would significantly slow down my network but I know that any wifi traffic certainly does.


----------



## moyekj

button1066 said:


> What is SDV?
> 
> I'm not liking this timing out business because I like to play videogames online and if someone else in the house starts watching live TV on the Mini even for just a couple of minutes then that would be at least 1 or more hours of unnecessary network traffic slowing things down. I don't really know if the streaming video over ethernet would significantly slow down my network but I know that any wifi traffic certainly does.


 SDV = Switched Digital Video
These are channels the cable company only sends down the line to a neighborhood if someone in the neighborhood is actually watching it. It requires a Tuning Adapter with TiVos and there is messaging back and forth such that after a period of time of no interaction the TiVo will ask if you are still watching and if not it will time out the channel.

I don't see it as a big deal since:
1. You should always have option to disallow live TV on mins by not allocating any tuners from the host
2. If you do use Mini for live TV you can train yourself to hit TiVo button before you leave, or add it to a smart remote macro "off" sequence which turns off TV/amp etc.
3. The maximum possible data rate of HD channels is 19 Mbps and typically HD channels are much less than that, so assuming you have a decent LAN (1Gbps) that data rate is pretty insignificant.


----------



## tatergator1

button1066 said:


> What is SDV?
> 
> I'm not liking this timing out business because I like to play videogames online and if someone else in the house starts watching live TV on the Mini even for just a couple of minutes then that would be at least 1 or more hours of unnecessary network traffic slowing things down. I don't really know if the streaming video over ethernet would significantly slow down my network but I know that any wifi traffic certainly does.


SDV is Switched Digital Video. It's a means that some Cable Cos use to save bandwidth by allocating lesser viewed channels to be sent along the line only when particularly requested by a viewer. It's existence has been a headache-filled journey for many Tivo users since it requires additional hardware from the Cable Co to act as an intermediary between the Tivo and the Cable Co head end to request that a SDV channel be broadcast when a Tivo user wants to watch or record it.

As for your concerns about network traffic, it's possible it may impact your network somewhat, but since Live TV streaming would be entirely internal network traffic (LAN), it seems unlikely to greatly affect any online gaming like you experience with WiFi. Since the ultimate destination of most WiFi traffic would be external and would require some of your external internet bandwidth, this is why it would adversely affect any online gaming, which would be competing for the limited external bandwidth from your internet provider.


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## button1066

moyekj said:


> SDV = Switched Digital Video
> These are channels the cable company only sends down the line to a neighborhood if someone in the neighborhood is actually watching it. It requires a Tuning Adapter with TiVos and there is messaging back and forth such that after a period of time of no interaction the TiVo will ask if you are still watching and if not it will time out the channel.
> 
> I don't see it as a big deal since:
> 1. You should always have option to disallow live TV on mins by not allocating any tuners from the host
> 2. If you do use Mini for live TV you can train yourself to hit TiVo button before you leave, or add it to a smart remote macro "off" sequence which turns off TV/amp etc.


Your point 1 is pretty much what I would expect and want out of the Mini, i.e. it is an extender that can play shows recorded on another device but has no live capability. I am of the opinion that if a feature of any product isn't prefect then drop it to avoid creating frustration or expectations that are unrealistic.

Point 2 is what I was indicating earlier would be an irritating aspect of the Mini if it comes to pass. It is different to how normal TiVos work and won't be adhered to by people who like things to just work without messing around.

The TiVo mini sounds more and more like a network hog/killer and for people who don't care about that then fine but I'm not a big fan of what I've read so far.


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## Jonathan_S

overFEDEXed said:


> Dan or anybody else,
> Why do you think that TiVo went ahead and put the Tuner Allocation option in with the last software update?
> 
> I'm just curious.
> 
> Thanks


At a guess it might be one of a couple of things:
1) The software was too close to release and they didn't want to delay it to pull a feature, even if they ultimately plan not to use it.

2) Even with dynamic tuner allocation it might be nice to lock down a TiVo and restrict minis from stealing live-tv tuner(s); even dynamically. [Image a household where you have kids or guests that might not understand that they'd be screwing up recordings by channel surfing. Easier to block that ability and make them stick with pre-recorded content]

3) The delay of the mini has nothing to do with dynamic tuner allocation and (at least at initial release) it'll need perminant tuner allocation  So the software it still totally necessary.

I'd hope that it's 2 (or even 1), but we won't know until either TiVo says something or the mini is released and people can play with it and find out if/how that setting interacts with it.


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## Dan203

button1066 said:


> What is SDV?
> 
> I'm not liking this timing out business because I like to play videogames online and if someone else in the house starts watching live TV on the Mini even for just a couple of minutes then that would be at least 1 or more hours of unnecessary network traffic slowing things down. I don't really know if the streaming video over ethernet would significantly slow down my network but I know that any wifi traffic certainly does.


I'm betting that tuner allocation setting sticks around. SO that if you have no desire to watch live TV via a Mini you can just turn it off.

Also if you want to prevent live TV from using unnecessary network bandwidth when it's not actually being watched then train your family to always go to My Shows, select a program and pause it before turning off the TV. That will halt all network streaming immediately.

Dan


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## BigJimOutlaw

Couple of clarifications compiled from the mountains of MegaZone research and the like...

The last good information we had, you select the number of tuners you wanted allocated to other devices. You can select between 0 and 2. You can find this screen already in the fall software.

Those tuners are not then dedicated to a specific device. They become part of a "pool". If 1 tuner is allotted to multiple Mini's, they all have to share that 1 tuner. Or if you have 2 tuners allotted to other devices, the second Mini will grab the free one. If no tuners are available for the device to use, obviously some sort of screen would have to be presented if they try to watch live TV. There's no known limit to the number of Minis you can have, but you can only share up to 2 tuners per Elite/4/XL4 as the screen currently indicates.

Conflict resolution on the DVR would function the same it always has. The 4-tuner Tivo becomes a 3- or 2-tuner box (depending on how many tuners you give up). If there aren't enough tuners to record everything, it either won't record the lowest priority program(s) or it'll reschedule them for a later viewing if available. So while 4 tuner boxes are spoiling us a little bit, go back to your 2-tuner roots and make sure your SP list is prioritized correctly. 

Of course, ideally, the tuners would not have to be added to a semi-permanent "pool" and they'd just be borrowed and returned to the DVR once the Mini is off. And conflict resolution would be resolved the same way it is now as if you're watching live TV -- ask you if you want to cancel the recording or not. This would open the possibility of the Mini working with regular Premieres too.

That is intended to be fixed with a future update, but the very latest data we have still says it's a 4-tuner accessory, so folks shouldn't get their hopes up that just because it's delayed, it's to wait for that fix. It still may be released in the gimped state.



> If a TiVo Mini is streaming live TV from a TiVo over a network how will it know when to stop? Would you have to turn the TiVo Mini off?


Supposedly the Mini was going to detect whether or not the TV was on based on an active/inactive video output from the box. Or something like that. This seemed up in the air at the time and was one of those things they were still figuring out.

This data is accurate as of May when Tivo last talked about it, except for a Margret interview at the end of September which still indicated it was a 4-tuner accessory. What's changed, if anything, is anybody's guess. Unless testers are lurking.


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## CoxInPHX

All this 4-Tuner "needed" BS really stinks, I have purchased 2-Tuner Premieres for my extended family, and that is all they need. I would buy them all a TiVo Mini for Christmas if they were available and would work with a 2-Tuner Premiere, even if all it could do was playback recordings. A plus would be dynamic tuner allocation, Netflix and Hulu.

As it is now I am getting them Rokus instead.


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## Dan203

Yeah with the option to set the number of tuners available to Minis I wonder why they would limit the Mini to a 4 tuner host? Obviously the Mini can function if there are no tuners available for live TV, so why not just make it so if the host is a 2 tuner box live TV is simply disabled? Could even put some sort of warning in the initial setup process telling the user that if they select a 2 tuner host live TV will not be available. They might even get a few upsells that way.

Dan


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## crxssi

moyekj said:


> Based on information we had on initial plans for Mini deployment you would have to manually specify on your XL4 how many tuners you wanted to dedicate to Minis, and you could choose 0,1 or 2 tuners. Whatever number you choose to dedicate to Minis are not useable anymore for XL4 recordings. Obviously the early reaction to this by this forum was very negative and perhaps that is one reason why the Mini release is delayed, so that TiVo can work on dynamic tuner allocation where tuners are still available to the host when not in use by Minis for live TV. I still hope even if there is dynamic tuner allocation in place at launch that one has the option to allocate 0 tuners to Minis still.


That was just part of the major negative reaction. The other (perhaps even more important?) was the insanely stupid requirement that it be an XL4. There is absolutely no valid reason the Mini should be restricted to only a single model. None.


----------



## crxssi

mr_smits said:


> I think Tivo will want to preserve their traditional tuner box revenue and only permit a Mini connected to one regular box. However, it would be great if the option would be:
> 
> 2 tuner Premiere = no mini
> 4 tuner Premiere = 1 mini
> 6 tuner future box = 2 or 3 minis


That is just plain STUPID. There should be no requirement at all for how many tuners are in the hosting Premieres. Probably most users have ZERO interest in watching "live" TV, which is the ONLY reason it would need to "steal" tuners in the first place. Even with no tuner, you can select something playing right now and just tell it to record it and start watching it immediately.


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## Dan203

I agree. There is no reason to limit the host just because of a feature most people wont even use. (i.e. live TV) I'm hoping that the delay signifies they are rethinking their strategy on this.

Dan


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## aaronwt

button1066 said:


> Your point 1 is pretty much what I would expect and want out of the Mini, i.e. it is an extender that can play shows recorded on another device but has no live capability. I am of the opinion that if a feature of any product isn't prefect then drop it to avoid creating frustration or expectations that are unrealistic.
> 
> Point 2 is what I was indicating earlier would be an irritating aspect of the Mini if it comes to pass. It is different to how normal TiVos work and won't be adhered to by people who like things to just work without messing around.
> 
> The TiVo mini sounds more and more like a network hog/killer and for people who don't care about that then fine but I'm not a big fan of what I've read so far.


Yes it's certainly not going to affect any online gaming. I can be transferring a terabyte or more for data over my network at 800Mb/s and it will have no effect on me playing a game on my Xbox. Plus there is very little data transferred over the internet connection while playing a game. At least there was very little when I was playing MW3 over a cellular hot spot and I kept checking the data usage.

The only time the network transfer would affect my usage if if I initiated another large transfer and then I would run up against the speed limit of my gigabit connection which would slow both transfers down from what they could be. And the data streaming to a mini would be small. It would only be an HD stream which is a very small amount bandwidth.


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## jcthorne

Well, the failur of a wireless HDMI system here at our home has prompted me to give up on waiting for the mini.

Got our third Premiere with lifetime for $449 shipped yesterday for the kitchen/dining room tv. Will mount it up under a cabinet and use a couple moca adaptors to use the existing coax for both network and antenna. 

Looks like we are headed for a networked set of premieres as our whole home solution rather than sharing a single Tivo to all sets.

Like wireless on the tivo, wireless HDMI is as flakey as a pillsbury pie crust. Glad to be rid of that non-solution, even though it was money wasted.


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## atmuscarella

jcthorne said:


> Well, the failur of a wireless HDMI system here at our home has prompted me to give up on waiting for the mini.
> 
> Got our third Premiere with lifetime for $449 shipped yesterday for the kitchen/dining room tv. Will mount it up under a cabinet and use a couple moca adaptors to use the existing coax for both network and antenna.
> 
> Looks like we are headed for a networked set of premieres as our whole home solution rather than sharing a single Tivo to all sets.
> 
> Like wireless on the tivo, wireless HDMI is as flakey as a pillsbury pie crust. Glad to be rid of that non-solution, even though it was money wasted.


There are +s & -s to either using multiple DVRs or single/multiple DVR with extenders for a whole home solution.

My personal opinion is for OTA only homes even if extenders and 4-6 tuner DVRs were available, having multiple DVRs would still be superior solution.

Unfortunately TiVo isn't anywhere near providing a complete whole home solution using either method (multiple DVRs or single/multiple DVRs with extenders). And I am not sure they ever will.


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## MichaelK

overFEDEXed said:


> Dan or anybody else,
> Why do you think that TiVo went ahead and put the Tuner Allocation option in with the last software update?
> 
> I'm just curious.
> 
> Thanks


my vote = they are fearful that the next software update would be even more delayed than the mini already appears to be. So they figured better but it out there now even if it wont get used till whenever the mini finally comes along (if ever to retail)...


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> My personal opinion is for OTA only homes even if extenders and 4-6 tuner DVRs were available, having multiple DVRs would still be superior solution.


Even if there were a 6 tuner DVR and the Minis were available you'd still want multiple DVRs? Why? Having a single integrated To Do List has made my Elite worth every penny. Unfortunately my cable company prevents me from using it as my sole TiVo because they still broadcast analog stations, and the Elite doesn't do analog, so I had to keep a standard Premiere around to record the analog shows. As soon as they get rid of the analog stations, or simulcast them, and the Mini is released I'm replacing the Premiere with a Mini. 4 tuners is plenty for what I record and only managing a single To Do List for everything would be a dream.

Dan


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## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> Even if there were a 6 tuner DVR and the Minis were available you'd still want multiple DVRs? Why? Having a single integrated To Do List has made my Elite worth every penny. Unfortunately my cable company prevents me from using it as my sole TiVo because they still broadcast analog stations, and the Elite doesn't do analog, so I had to keep a standard Premiere around to record the analog shows. As soon as they get rid of the analog stations, or simulcast them, and the Mini is released I'm replacing the Premiere with a Mini. 4 tuners is plenty for what I record and only managing a single To Do List for everything would be a dream.
> 
> Dan


I would downgrade from 3 TiVos to 2, but I would still want more than one. I like having overlap. One TiVo would be the main while the other would be backup and conflicts along with my dedicated push destination. I also tend to use my secondary TiVo as a place to keep concerts and movies I occasionally record.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Even if there were a 6 tuner DVR and the Minis were available you'd still want multiple DVRs? Why? Having a single integrated To Do List has made my Elite worth every penny. Unfortunately my cable company prevents me from using it as my sole TiVo because they still broadcast analog stations, and the Elite doesn't do analog, so I had to keep a standard Premiere around to record the analog shows. As soon as they get rid of the analog stations, or simulcast them, and the Mini is released I'm replacing the Premiere with a Mini. 4 tuners is plenty for what I record and only managing a single To Do List for everything would be a dream.
> 
> Dan


Well remember I was talking about OTA as was the post I respond to so there is no cost of cable cards for multiple DVRs. Also I mention some key words like a *"complete"* whole home system.

The reality is TiVo is never going to provide OTA users with a complete whole home/family system. They are not going to provide a 4 or more tuner OTA system and they are not going to upgrade their software so that a multiple DVR system works like a complete whole home/family system should. So this topic is really academic and OTA users will have to cob together something that is close with what is and may be available.

But to answer you main question I would rather have redundancy with multiple DVRs than one main unit. I personally currently have 8 OTA tuners, 6 in 3 TiVo DVRs and 2 via HDHomerun on my network that are used by 2 computers. The TiVos have 5.25 TB of storage and the computers are basically limitless with about 8 TB of various internal/external/network storage available now. At this moment in time I am guessing I have about 8 TB of shows save in various places. So no having a single DVR with limited storage does not interest me.

Remember any functionality that a single DVR with extenders can provide can be replicated with software and multiple DVRs. So if a TiVo whole home/family system with one DVR and extenders ends up with more functionality than a multiple TiVo DVR whole home/family system it is only because TiVo decided to make it that way.

Just of kicks my basic requirements for a "*complete*" whole home/family system are pretty straight forward.


The system should be able to include as many tuners as the family wants and the ability to add as much storage as needed. 
The system should provide the ability to "play" recorded or live video on any and all screens including TVs, Monitors, Projectors, laptops, tablets, smart phones, and anything else that comes along. The same would be true for any other services that are provided like access to music, photos, or Internet streaming services. 
The software should provide a seamless experience from an location and tie all the hardware together.
But again, just for the record, I don't expect TiVo to ever actually provide the above.


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## L David Matheny

Dan203 said:


> Even if there were a 6 tuner DVR and the Minis were available you'd still want multiple DVRs? Why? Having a single integrated To Do List has made my Elite worth every penny.


A single integrated To Do List is a nice feature, and a single integrated My Shows list would be nice, too. But some OTA users receive stations from more than one direction, and it's usually easier to use multiple antennas each connected to a dedicated TiVo than to cobble up some complicated way to merge all the signals into one antenna feed.

I would like to see TiVo offer a four-tuner (or six-tuner) model with two inputs capable of tuning OTA frequencies and a third input for cable. Each tuner could be switched to use any of the three inputs by assigning each channel in the Channel List to Ant-1 or Ant-2 or cable. I don't think the software changes would be terribly difficult, but TiVo probably won't do anything like that unless the OTA market grows a lot more due to "cord cutting". Cable may be a 20th-Century technology, but OTA could still lose out to Internet delivery of everything or to legislative misadventure.


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## jcthorne

atmuscarella said:


> There are +s & -s to either using multiple DVRs or single/multiple DVR with extenders for a whole home solution.
> 
> My personal opinion is for OTA only homes even if extenders and 4-6 tuner DVRs were available, having multiple DVRs would still be superior solution.
> 
> Unfortunately TiVo isn't anywhere near providing a complete whole home solution using either method (multiple DVRs or single/multiple DVRs with extenders). And I am not sure they ever will.


Curious what you believe is missing from the current multi tivo networked solution? Improvements could be made sure, but I see nothing really missing from basic functionality through the home.


----------



## mr_smits

atmuscarella said:


> The TiVos have 5.25 TB of storage and the computers are basically limitless with about 8 TB of various internal/external/network storage available now. At this moment in time I am guessing I have about 8 TB of shows save in various places. So no having a single DVR with limited storage does not interest me.


Not to take the conversation off topic, but do you simply not delete shows or do you like to store entire seasons or DVDs or other all the time? My next question is: do you ever watch 8 TB of shows? Is it more about the system than the actual use?


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## atmuscarella

jcthorne said:


> Curious what you believe is missing from the current multi tivo networked solution? Improvements could be made sure, but I see nothing really missing from basic functionality through the home.


My idea of a "complete system" is one where the software ties all the hardware together seamlessly and perhaps where there is the option to setup user accounts. So say I have 3 Premieres, a complete system would show you 6 tuners from any of the DVRs, a combined to do list, season pass list, listing of recorded shows, and perhaps even deal with sharing Storage as needed between units in a seamless way.

Currently what we have with multiple TiVo DVRs are TiVo DVRs working as individual stand alone systems that can stream content to each other. Plus TiVo is just starting to address tablet screens and really needs to update access via computer.

In my mind there is a long way to go before TiVo will actually have a "whole home system".


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## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> Not to take the conversation off topic, but do you simply not delete shows or do you like to store entire seasons or DVDs or other all the time? My next question is: do you ever watch 8 TB of shows? Is it more about the system than the actual use?


I do record and save whole seasons of shows for future use. But mostly I just record everything (and anything) I might possible want to watch my guess is at some point I will have to admit I am never going to watch some stuff and delete it but I like knowing I always have something to watch regardless of what is actually being broadcast. I am sure I could live with and be happy with 4 tuners and 4TBs.


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## aaronwt

I don't know how you get by with such a small amount of storage...

I used to use my TiVo Desktop alot for the RAID5 storage I have connected to it, but since getting both of my Elites, I rarely turn on my TiVo Desktop PC. Since those two boxes have almost the same amount of storage my TiVo Desktop has(one day I'll repurpose those drives to my second unRAID setup). Plus I don't keep alot of my HD TV shows available on Network storage like I used to ten years ago when I was recording every HD movie they broadcast as well as other shows. I've deleted alot of that old content now.


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## DigitalDawn

When I spoke to a TiVo engineer at this past CEDIA I specifically asked him if you could have the Mini's use tuners from multiple Premiere's, and he said yes.


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## moedaman

Dan203 said:


> Even if there were a 6 tuner DVR and the Minis were available you'd still want multiple DVRs? Why? Having a single integrated To Do List has made my Elite worth every penny. Unfortunately my cable company prevents me from using it as my sole TiVo because they still broadcast analog stations, and the Elite doesn't do analog, so I had to keep a standard Premiere around to record the analog shows. As soon as they get rid of the analog stations, or simulcast them, and the Mini is released I'm replacing the Premiere with a Mini. 4 tuners is plenty for what I record and only managing a single To Do List for everything would be a dream.
> 
> Dan


But with only one dvr, you're dependent upon that box for all your viewing on all your tv's. This is why I felt DirectTV's original WHDVR system was/is superior to Dish's Hopper/Joey or DirectTV's new Geni. It allows another dvr or stb with it's own tuner(s) to be a client box. Kind of like a failsafe measure.


----------



## mr_smits

moedaman said:


> But with only one dvr, you're dependent upon that box for all your viewing on all your tv's. This is why I felt DirectTV's original WHDVR system was/is superior to Dish's Hopper/Joey or DirectTV's new Geni. It allows another dvr or stb with it's own tuner(s) to be a client box. Kind of like a failsafe measure.


If my Tivo dies suddenly and it is a 4 or possible 6 tuner unit powering a number of Minis, that is ok. I don't store anything important on these boxes. Just television shows that I'd like to watch but if I lose them - oh well. I don't feel the need a failsafe or backup. However, I do gain time from my life from having a single integrated list for recordings and season passes.


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## moedaman

mr_smits said:


> If my Tivo dies suddenly and it is a 4 or possible 6 tuner unit powering a number of Minis, that is ok. I don't store anything important on these boxes. Just television shows that I'd like to watch but if I lose them - oh well. I don't feel the need a failsafe or backup. However, I do gain time from my life from having a single integrated list for recordings and season passes.


I was talking about being able to watch tv at all. If you only have one box with tuners in it and it fails, then you don't get to watch anything. Although, extra boxes with tuners are a lot more important with a satellite system than it would be with ota or cable because plenty of tv's have ATSC and clear QAM tuners.


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## mr_smits

moedaman said:


> I was talking about being able to watch tv at all. If you only have one box with tuners in it and it fails, then you don't get to watch anything. Although, extra boxes with tuners are a lot more important with a satellite system than it would be with ota or cable because plenty of tv's have ATSC and clear QAM tuners.


I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take. I can stand to not watch tv for a few days.


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## Dan203

Me too. I hate managing multiple TiVos. If there was an easy way to have one TiVo that did everything and then have a couple extenders spread around the house I would do it for sure. And like you I feel like if it crashed I'd be fine. It's just TV, and anything I really wanted to watch could be downloaded from BitTorrent or watched via one of the various streaming services. It's not irreplaceable data.

Although if you were really paranoid there are programs that can turn a PC into a TiVo backup system. (at least for unencrypted data) I believe kmttg can be set to automatically download all shows and even back up your Season Passes. So the only thing you would lose are copy protected shows.

Dan


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## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> If my Tivo dies suddenly and it is a 4 or possible 6 tuner unit powering a number of Minis, that is ok. I don't store anything important on these boxes. Just television shows that I'd like to watch but if I lose them - oh well. I don't feel the need a failsafe or backup. However, I do gain time from my life from having a single integrated list for recordings and season passes.


Well that has been my complaint all along there is no reason a multi DVR Whole Home system shouldn't be able to provide a single integrated list for recordings and season pases. It is just programing/software. Given the additional conflict resolution that is going to be needed to make a system with minis in it function correctly TiVo should just bite the bullet and make it work correctly regardless how many DVRs or minis are in the system.


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## mr_smits

atmuscarella said:


> TiVo should just bite the bullet and make it work correctly regardless how many DVRs or minis are in the system.


I agree except with 2 tuner devices. Attaching 1 or 2 Minis to a 2 tuner Tivo will cripple it and be rather confusing to users.


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> Well that has been my complaint all along there is no reason a multi DVR Whole Home system shouldn't be able to provide a single integrated list for recordings and season pases. It is just programing/software. Given the additional conflict resolution that is going to be needed to make a system with minis in it function correctly TiVo should just bite the bullet and make it work correctly regardless how many DVRs or minis are in the system.


It's not as easy as you'd think. Which TiVo would host the unified list? If that tiVo was removed from the network how would the other TiVos react? If each TiVo simply aggregated the lists of all other TiVos on the network that could be really slow. Have you ever seen how long it takes to populate the list of shows in TiVo Desktop? A single box doing all the recording, with multiple extenders positioned around the house, is a LOT easier from a programming perspective then cooperative scheduling amongst multiple TiVos.

Doing a simple conflict dialog that offers to schedule a one time recording on an alternate TiVo would be possible, but a single list across multiple networked boxes is a lot more difficult then it sounds and ripe with potential problems.

Dan


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## crxssi

mr_smits said:


> I agree except with 2 tuner devices. Attaching 1 or 2 Minis to a 2 tuner Tivo will cripple it and be rather confusing to users.


Why would it? If one cares nothing about "Live" tv, like most people, a "Mini" should have no more impact on a 2 tuner device than a 200 tuner device. And the overall impact should be no worse than MRV or a network transfer.


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## mr_smits

crxssi said:


> Why would it? If one cares nothing about "Live" tv, like most people, a "Mini" should have no more impact on a 2 tuner device than a 200 tuner device. And the overall impact should be no worse than MRV or a network transfer.


I care about live tv. I watch mostly recorded shows, but I do flip channels from time to time.


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> It's not as easy as you'd think. Which TiVo would host the unified list? If that tiVo was removed from the network how would the other TiVos react? If each TiVo simply aggregated the lists of all other TiVos on the network that could be really slow. Have you ever seen how long it takes to populate the list of shows in TiVo Desktop? A single box doing all the recording, with multiple extenders positioned around the house, is a LOT easier from a programming perspective then cooperative scheduling amongst multiple TiVos.
> 
> Doing a simple conflict dialog that offers to schedule a one time recording on an alternate TiVo would be possible, but a single list across multiple networked boxes is a lot more difficult then it sounds and ripe with potential problems.
> 
> Dan


Well nothing is easy if you don't know how to do it.

But honestly TiVo is supposed to be a DVR software company, I can buy they don't want to spend the $$s given the current state of stand alone DVRs but I don't buy it would be difficult for them to do if they were willing to spend the development $$s.

I work at home sometimes and through a 5mps at best DSL line my work computer seamlessly provides me a connection to an exchange server several 1000 miles away and mirrors my email so I have instant access too it. Sending and receiving email even with larger attachments "appears" to be fast and is accomplished effortlessly because the system is designed well.

Sure seems like TiVo could cash and mirror data between multiple TiVos and be smart enough to know which TiVo data came from and gray it out if communication is lost locally just as easy. There should be no reason for a combined list of shows to take 1 second longer to come up than a list of show on that DVR only. Do you really expect your list of shows to come up slow with a mini like they do with the desktop software? If it does people will have a fit and TiVo will have a flop.


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> I work at home sometimes and through a 5mps at best DSL line my work computer seamlessly provides me a connection to an exchange server several 1000 miles away and mirrors my email so I have instant access too it. Sending and receiving email even with larger attachments "appears" to be fast and is accomplished effortlessly because the system is designed well.


In that scenario the server at your office is doing all the heavy lifting and storing all the data. If the server goes down you can't access your email. That's really no different then having a single 6 tuner DVR with extenders placed around the house. The DVR is the server and the extenders are your PC.

Really think about what multiple TiVo cooperative scheduling would entail. The only way for scheduling to work properly would be to have one TiVo act as the central host, with the other TiVos acting as dumb tuners. What happens if the host goes offline or loses communication with one of the dumb tuners? TiVo's scheduling system is not real time, it would not be able to compensate for the loss of a tuner if it happened close to a scheduled recording.

It's not that such a system is impossible it's that it's so unreliable with so many points of failure it would be a nightmare to support. Moving all the tuners into a single box with dumb extenders around the house is a much easier system to manage. If one of the extenders goes offline or loses connection with the host then it does not effect recordings. And if the host goes offline then you're really no worse off then you would be if the host went offline in a cooperative system.

Now basic cooperation, such as offering to schedule a program on another TiVo if there is a known conflict or even aggregating the My Shows lists from all TiVos, would be possible and wouldn't negatively effect the user experience. So that sort of thing I could see happening. But a complete system where multiple TiVos act as one I just don't see happening.

Dan


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## Dan203

crxssi said:


> Why would it? If one cares nothing about "Live" tv, like most people, a "Mini" should have no more impact on a 2 tuner device than a 200 tuner device. And the overall impact should be no worse than MRV or a network transfer.


In the current software tuner allocation is a setting, so if they do ever allow a 2 tuner box to act as a Mini host I expect that setting will be limited to 0 or 1. A TiVo is basically useless if both tuners are allocated to remote devices.

Now if they get dynamic tuner allocation working and live TV on a Mini essentially works the same as watching live TV on the TiVo itself (i.e. it prompts you when it needs to change for a recording) then it wont really matter. I guess the only scenario they might have to deal with is if there are multiple people watching live TV at the same time, who gets the prompt?

Dan


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## moyekj

For series 4 TiVos all the hooks are already available to build your own master scheduling system that pools multiple series 4 units together based on the RPC protocol (that iPad/Android systems use). In such a system you would not need any season passes or wishlists on the TiVos themselves, rather the master scheduler would have all the season pass and wishlist information and simply schedule 1 time recordings on available tuners to it. Not something I would be keen on working on but it is possible.


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## magnus

moyekj said:


> For series 4 TiVos all the hooks are already available to build your own master scheduling system that pools multiple series 4 units together based on the RPC protocol (that iPad/Android systems use). In such a system you would not need any season passes or wishlists on the TiVos themselves, rather the master scheduler would have all the season pass and wishlist information and simply schedule 1 time recordings on available tuners to it. Not something I would be keen on working on but it is possible.


I like the idea of that. Maybe a two tuner tivo can have another two tuner tivo's tuners allocated to it and then all season passes could flow through one box. This way multi room scheduling could be essentially accomplished.


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## moyekj

magnus said:


> I like the idea of that. Maybe a two tuner tivo can have another two tuner tivo's tuners allocated to it and then all season passes could flow through one box. This way multi room scheduling could be essentially accomplished.


 Under my scenario there would be a non-TiVo box (PC) running the software and controlling everything. That way all the season passes, wishlists, etc. are independent of a TiVo and easily backed up. The TiVos themselves essentially become dumb clients storing shows to be watched.


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## Dan203

magnus said:


> I like the idea of that. Maybe a two tuner tivo can have another two tuner tivo's tuners allocated to it and then all season passes could flow through one box. This way multi room scheduling could be essentially accomplished.


I mentioned that above. But what happens if the second unit goes offline suddenly? Or if someone uses that TiVo to directly schedule a recording that supersedes the automatically scheduled one? Unless they made the second TiVo a complete slave to the host there are still a ton of things that could go wrong with that system. The same applies to the PC based one moyekj suggested. It's soooo much easier to just consolidate all the tuners into a single box. Plus it's cheaper for the user because they only have to pay for one subscription and one CableCARD.

The only advantages of having multiple units are possible protection against failure, but I suspect that failure would be more common with such a system because there are so many variables involved.

Dan


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> In that scenario the server at your office is doing all the heavy lifting and storing all the data. If the server goes down you can't access your email. That's really no different then having a single 6 tuner DVR with extenders placed around the house. The DVR is the server and the extenders are your PC...


there's a crazy little checkbox in outlook when you set up exchange that handles getting disconnected from the server- it's called cached mode.

but apparently every software engineer Tivo employs (or outsourced to) was asleep in class the day they reviewed using a cache so i see why you assume they wouldn't do that.


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## MichaelK

moyekj said:


> For series 4 TiVos all the hooks are already available to build your own master scheduling system that pools multiple series 4 units together based on the RPC protocol (that iPad/Android systems use). In such a system you would not need any season passes or wishlists on the TiVos themselves, rather the master scheduler would have all the season pass and wishlist information and simply schedule 1 time recordings on available tuners to it. Not something I would be keen on working on but it is possible.


...



moyekj said:


> Under my scenario there would be a non-TiVo box (PC) running the software and controlling everything. That way all the season passes, wishlists, etc. are independent of a TiVo and easily backed up. The TiVos themselves essentially become dumb clients storing shows to be watched.


I've often wondered why Tivo didn't just use their servers and the cloud to accomplish something along those lines. The boxes clearly are built for always on connections and removing a bit of the heavy lifting from the boxes might give them more freeboard on the devices to optimize things to cache some stuff to improve menu speed and deal with data interruptions.

Looking at some of the 'blended' things google does with their mobile client software and their own servers could give some inspiration. Google nav, gmail, voice recognition, etc all do the heavy lifting in the cloud but do some basic stuff on the device so it's generally seamless even on a mobile device with spotty connections.


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## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> there's a crazy little checkbox in outlook when you set up exchange that handles getting disconnected from the server- it's called cached mode.
> 
> but apparently every software engineer Tivo employs (or outsourced to) was asleep in class the day they reviewed using a cache so i see why you assume they wouldn't do that.


TiVo could cache the names and data of shows on remote TiVos, and I'm sure that would help speed up the process of aggregating all My Shows into a single list. However that doesn't help with scheduling or recording. Scheduling and recording happen on that specific TiVo and if the link between that TiVo and the host is broken, for whatever reason, the schedules may fall out of sync and cause the wrong show to record or something to get missed. This is not a simple host/server relationship like the email scenario you're describing. That's more like the TiVo/Mini relationship. The TiVo is the server and the Mini is the computer with the cached data. Cooperative scheduling amongst multiple TiVos is much, much more complicated then that.

Dan


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## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> I've often wondered why Tivo didn't just use their servers and the cloud to accomplish something along those lines. The boxes clearly are built for always on connections and removing a bit of the heavy lifting from the boxes might give them more freeboard on the devices to optimize things to cache some stuff to improve menu speed and deal with data interruptions.


Because it's so much easier, and more reliable, to simply build a box with more tuners. Relying on a network connection of any type, especially an internet connection, for time sensitive scheduling is just asking for trouble. From a support perspective it's so much simpler to just build a box with more tuners. Then if it fails it's always on the users end and relatively easy to diagnose.

Dan


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> It's soooo much easier to just consolidate all the tuners into a single box. Plus it's cheaper for the user because they only have to pay for one subscription and one CableCARD.
> 
> The only advantages of having multiple units are possible protection against failure, but I suspect that failure would be more common with such a system because there are so many variables involved.
> 
> Dan


Maybe Tivo should make an OTA box with 4 tuners then.


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## Dan203

While being limited to a 2 tuner box because of OTA is a valid reason to "want" cooperative scheduling, it doesn't negate the difficulties in implementing it or make TiVo any more likely to do so. The market for OTA just isn't there to support a 4 tuner OTA only box. Maybe someday they'll release a box with 4-6 tuners that can support cable and OTA, like the current 2 tuner Premiere, but I just don't ever see them releasing a 4 tuner OTA only box and with the current hardware platform that would be the only way to do it.

Dan


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> TiVo could cache the names and data of shows on remote TiVos, and I'm sure that would help speed up the process of aggregating all My Shows into a single list. However that doesn't help with scheduling or recording. Scheduling and recording happen on that specific TiVo and if the link between that TiVo and the host is broken, for whatever reason, the schedules may fall out of sync and cause the wrong show to record or something to get missed. This is not a simple host/server relationship like the email scenario you're describing. That's more like the TiVo/Mini relationship. The TiVo is the server and the Mini is the computer with the cached data. Cooperative scheduling amongst multiple TiVos is much, much more complicated then that.
> 
> Dan


i'd agree- there's a big difference between host and server like exchange/outlook and something that's more peer to peerish like cooperative scheduling. But my point is hiccups in networking can be dealt with with caching or some other well thought out means.

I DO understand none of this is simple but just look at the work that volunteers in the community do and it's sad that tivo with paid resources can't get anything done in a timely manner. Tivo just doesn't seem to make a significant effort to "wow" anyone anymore (with DVR features at least)- And I realize it's just my perception but i'm certainly not alone in the feeling.


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> Because it's so much easier, and more reliable, to simply build a box with more tuners. Relying on a network connection of any type, especially an internet connection, for time sensitive scheduling is just asking for trouble. From a support perspective it's so much simpler to just build a box with more tuners. Then if it fails it's always on the users end and relatively easy to diagnose.
> 
> Dan


blah blah blah (is my childish way of saying- Yeah I understand what you are sayiung and wouldn't disagree but i want a pony!- lol).

It's a lot simplier to call my grandmother on a wired analog phone too (if I could find one)- but i have a digital smart phone to do it and it gives me a bajillion more options and features compared to the 1970's analog corded phone technology.

So to be serious- while it would take some significant planning - it would open them to many more things if they were hooked in to the cloud more. Slingbox like features off the web (maybe they are afraid of...) , the ability to use multiple boxes behave as a hive as above, the sorts of things the tablet apps make possible, online backups of data, seemless moving from an old box to a new or moving to new locations, maybe they could even do online storage of people's archived content in the future, who knows what else....

So sure tivo is the best year 2000 techology dvr available at retail, I'd love for it to do more.


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> While being limited to a 2 tuner box because of OTA is a valid reason to "want" cooperative scheduling, it doesn't negate the difficulties in implementing it or make TiVo any more likely to do so. The market for OTA just isn't there to support a 4 tuner OTA only box. Maybe someday they'll release a box with 4-6 tuners that can support cable and OTA, like the current 2 tuner Premiere, but I just don't ever see them releasing a 4 tuner OTA only box and with the current hardware platform that would be the only way to do it.
> 
> Dan


is it possible that they could add external usb OTA tuners to a 2 tuner box? Maybe that's a solution for the OTA folks?


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## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> In that scenario the server at your office is doing all the heavy lifting and storing all the data.


 Not exactly I have a full mirrored copy in my laptop that is why it works seamlessly even on slow network connections I am always opening local files. When new email comes in I don't see it until it has actually download to my laptop. If something happens to my laptop I can access the exchange server from any of our company computers and everything is there exactly as it is on my laptop and if I am going to use another computer regularly I can set it up to mirror my exchange data also.


Dan203 said:


> If the server goes down you can't access your email.


 mostly wrong the only thing I would not have access to is new email that I haven't received yet.



Dan203 said:


> That's really no different then having a single 6 tuner DVR with extenders placed around the house. The DVR is the server and the extenders are your PC.
> 
> Really think about what multiple TiVo cooperative scheduling would entail. The only way for scheduling to work properly would be to have one TiVo act as the central host, with the other TiVos acting as dumb tuners. What happens if the host goes offline or loses communication with one of the dumb tuners? TiVo's scheduling system is not real time, it would not be able to compensate for the loss of a tuner if it happened close to a scheduled recording.
> 
> It's not that such a system is impossible it's that it's so unreliable with so many points of failure it would be a nightmare to support. Moving all the tuners into a single box with dumb extenders around the house is a much easier system to manage. If one of the extenders goes offline or loses connection with the host then it does not effect recordings. And if the host goes offline then you're really no worse off then you would be if the host went offline in a cooperative system.
> 
> Now basic cooperation, such as offering to schedule a program on another TiVo if there is a known conflict or even aggregating the My Shows lists from all TiVos, would be possible and wouldn't negatively effect the user experience. So that sort of thing I could see happening. But a complete system where multiple TiVos act as one I just don't see happening.
> 
> Dan


Well there is allot to be said for simple and one box is simple but I would hope TiVo is thinking outside of the box . The area of a whole home DVR/Video delivery system needs some real innovation.

I actually think the best place for tuners is in a box of their own. Think about it with Wifi, Ethernet, USB, eSata, etc. what exactly is the "box" anyway?

If tuners were moved out of the DVR it would allow TiVo to support both cable and OTA equally, offer a flexible number of tuners, and maybe make it worth it to go to the FCC to force open the satellite systems one way or the other (a universal system or opening their own systems to third party devices).

I understand that component systems cost more than an all in one device but there is no reason TiVo couldn't provide a premium system along with more basic options.

P.S.: All also understand that what I wrote above is nothing more than a pipe dream. But sometimes dreaming is fun/good.


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## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> TiVo could cache the names and data of shows on remote TiVos, and I'm sure that would help speed up the process of aggregating all My Shows into a single list.


And if they would cache the program info and icons, then the Premiere would also not have to depend on the internet and their servers for most every move in the user interface, even just trying to watch programs YOU ALREADY RECORDED! This would GREATLY improve the user experience by improving speed, stopping hesitation, and improving reliability. But wishing won't make it happen


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## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> Not exactly I have a full mirrored copy in my laptop that is why it works seamlessly even on slow network connections I am always opening local files.


Creating a completely mirrored copy of every show recorded isn't possible. It would require huge amounts of storage and some show couldn't even be transferred because of copy restrictions.



atmuscarella said:


> mostly wrong the only thing I would not have access to is new email that I haven't received yet.


And in the case of email you'll still get that email later when the server comes back online. But in the case of a DVR you might miss a one time chance to record something because the TiVos couldn't communicate. The network between two TiVos would be much more critical then th connection between you and your email server because if the server goes down the email is still sitting out in the cloud somewhere and can be deleivered later.

External tuners might be a solution, but there still a possibility of them being removed at the last minute and the scheduling logic not being able to correct for the change.

The best solution is really to have one box that controls all the recording. I know it creates a single point of failure, but it's still safer then having multiple points of failure that could bring down the whole system. I still think that the one box + extenders is a better option thatnwill satisfy almst everyone and would be much easier to deelop and support.

Dan


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## Dan203

crxssi said:


> And if they would cache the program info and icons, then the Premiere would also not have to depend on the internet and their servers for most every move in the user interface, even just trying to watch programs YOU ALREADY RECORDED! This would GREATLY improve the user experience by improving speed, stopping hesitation, and improving reliability. But wishing won't make it happen


Well that's a different sort of caching, and something I completely agree with.

Dan


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## magnus

Dan203 said:


> Creating a completely mirrored copy of every show recorded isn't possible. It would require huge amounts of storage and some show couldn't even be transferred because of copy restrictions.
> 
> Dan


I think that Boxee is attempting to do just that. So, does Boxee just have more resources or something?


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## BigJimOutlaw

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2275

A number of Mini-related error code definitions were added to Tivo's support pages recently. In all the silence, I guess I find even the tiniest stuff amusing. Or I'm just impatiently searching for nuggets. Either/or.

---
V70 Error Code

Ineligible DVR Selected

You have selected a DVR that is not eligible to be a Host DVR for TiVo Mini for one of the following reasons:

It is not a Series 4 or newer model.
It does not have more than two tuners.
It has not made a recent connection to TiVo Service.
It is not on the same TiVo account as TiVo Mini.


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## jano18

Well my patience grew thin waiting for the Mini to be released, so I took advantage of the recent sale. I bought a new 320GB Premiere with lifetime & 3 year warranty for $503.57 for my bedroom. I will use it to stream from XL4 in my living room & to watch live TV for the news. I will decide once the Mini is released if it will be worth it to sell the 320GB & sacrifice a tuner on my XL4.


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## Dan203

magnus said:


> I think that Boxee is attempting to do just that. So, does Boxee just have more resources or something?


Is Boxee a DVR? i thought they were a streaming device. I don't really no anything about Boxee or what they are doing, so I can't comment directly. However i do know that if the CCI byte is set they are not allowed to copy programs between devices. It's a violation of the CableCARD rules and the device would never get approved by Cable Labs.

Dan


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## jano18

Dan203 said:


> Is Boxee a DVR? i thought they were a streaming device. I don't really no anything about Boxee or what they are doing, so I can't comment directly. However i do know that if the CCI byte is set they are not allowed to copy programs between devices. It's a violation of the CableCARD rules and the device would never get approved by Cable Labs.
> 
> Dan


From what I understand they are introducing an OTA networked DVR.


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> Creating a completely mirrored copy of every show recorded isn't possible. It would require huge amounts of storage and some show couldn't even be transferred because of copy restrictions.
> 
> And in the case of email you'll still get that email later when the server comes back online. But in the case of a DVR you might miss a one time chance to record something because the TiVos couldn't communicate. The network between two TiVos would be much more critical then th connection between you and your email server because if the server goes down the email is still sitting out in the cloud somewhere and can be deleivered later.
> 
> External tuners might be a solution, but there still a possibility of them being removed at the last minute and the scheduling logic not being able to correct for the change.
> 
> The best solution is really to have one box that controls all the recording. I know it creates a single point of failure, but it's still safer then having multiple points of failure that could bring down the whole system. I still think that the one box + extenders is a better option thatnwill satisfy almst everyone and would be much easier to deelop and support.
> 
> Dan


the boxes could cache their "marching orders" the tivo server doesn't need to speak to them every milli-second. (just like a master/slave dvr wouldn't need to be in non-stop communication with every box).

It's all hypothetical and tivo will never go there- but it's totally possible that tivo servers could run a job once a day to figure out what all the boxes in a particular houses should do for the next week or two. Each night when tivo recalculates the guide data they could put the boxes in line to recalculate each house and then send new marching orders.

If you went to go make a change locally then just like now the server would be contacted (to pick up pictures and info etc) but rather then think localy the box would prompt the server to re figure what to do on each client box.

sure one box can die or something, but if you spend hours figuring out how to spread things out yourself a box could die and mess up your plans too. If you saw it you could make a quick change and that would force a connection and new marching orders to be distributed- just like now if one box dies you scramble with your existing boxs to redo things.

As an example of a positive- such a server based system could let TiVo do things like know who has a particular live event scheduled and if there was a free tuner after- then if the game (or whatever) goes long the server could quickly just connect to the effected households and add minutes to the recording. To do that now- tivo has to send a notification to every single box for every single game and hope the box has free brain power at the moment to 'think about it' and try to add time if possible. Assuming that's anything like trying to reorder season passes in real time like in the old software- you might miss 5 minutes of one recording or another while a local box is trying to figure out what to do.

there's pluses and minuses to everything. Now it seems like tivo has figured out how to only leverage minuses (with local or server actions) and not leverage potential pluses (like local caching of one sort or another- or using a remote server to do some of the heavy lifting).


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## Dan203

jano18 said:


> From what I understand they are introducing an OTA networked DVR.


OTA can't be protected, cable can.

Dan


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## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> the boxes could cache their "marching orders" the tivo server doesn't need to speak to them every milli-second. (just like a master/slave dvr wouldn't need to be in non-stop communication with every box).


I never said it was impossible. I said it would be much more difficult then people realize and that doing such a thing would create way more points of failure for the system then consolidating all the tuners into a single box. One user suggested that by spreading out the recordings among multiple boxes you'd be mitigating the damage caused by catastrophic failure. I was pointing out that by doing so you're creating more potential for minor failures that would be more frustrating to every day use. Networks are flaky. Sure the chances of completely missing a show are small if you schedule recordings ahead of time, but if the number of tuners available at any given moment can change due to network outages it can effect the scheduling logic and the user experience when they look at the To Do List or Recording History. In a perfect world such a system would work fine and would be seamless to the user. But when it comes to networking it's never perfect. And it's just so much simpler and less error prone to put all the tuners in one box and then stream the shows around the house via the network and dumb terminals like the Mini.

I understand that cooperative scheduling is entirely possible, I just disagree that it is something TiVo should even consider doing. A simple dialog that pops up when there is a conflict and offers to schedule a recording on an alternative TiVo... sure. A full blown system with a unified scheduler... no.

Dan


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## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> Is Boxee a DVR? i thought they were a streaming device. I don't really no anything about Boxee or what they are doing, so I can't comment directly. However i do know that if the CCI byte is set they are not allowed to copy programs between devices. It's a violation of the CableCARD rules and the device would never get approved by Cable Labs.
> 
> Dan


I've had a BoxeeTV for several weeks. It's constantly uploading content from recordings to the cloud. It can get OTA and unencrypted QAM. Currently only OTA works with the DVR service. QAM can only be viewed live right now.(unless it changed recently.. I haven't checked it yet)

I have hundreds of episodes of shows, news, etc right now in the cloud. They don't make the organization of the recordings easy and in turn makes there no reason to delete anything since they supposedly offer you unlimited storage.

So far I have 454 recordings from my BoxeeTV in the cloud. Some 30 minutes long and some several hours long and everything in between.


----------



## Jonathan_S

MichaelK said:


> the boxes could cache their "marching orders" the tivo server doesn't need to speak to them every milli-second. (just like a master/slave dvr wouldn't need to be in non-stop communication with every box).


The problem with that is that the marching orders should change if a TiVo goes offline. Unfortunately, the 'best' solution depends on whether the TiVo simply dropped off the network or if it's actually unable to record; and there's no way for the other TiVo's to know which is true.

I'll give a simplified example; assume 2 TiVos, each with 2 tuners. At 8pm there are 3 shows scheduled to record, both TiVos know this and know the recording priority A, B, C. Assume TiVo 1 is scheduled to record the two highest priority shows (A & B) while TiVo 2 picked up the spare (C)

Now at 7:55 the connection to TiVo 1 drops; what does TiVo 2 do?
It's got two basic options - stick with the old plan and hope TiVo 1 picks up the higher priority recordings or dump C to be sure A & B get recorded.

If TiVo 1 lost power, then arguably choice 2 is better. You get the two shows you've said are more important, at the expense of show C.

But if the network went down, but both TiVos were running you're probably going to be annoyed you got two copies of A and of B, but no recording of C.

And the network just going down while both TiVos are up isn't that crazy an situation if wifi is in the mix. At least as my house someone making popcorn in the microwave will kill the wifi temporarily. Oops.

You've also got the issue (although less likely to be time critical) of over-scheduling recordings on the TiVo while off-network. Although you could prevent this by refusing to schedule more recording than you have local tuners unless you can actively talk to the other TiVo to pass the extra along. (Although that just brings up a different user interface annoyance)

None of this is insolvable, but it all make this more complicated (and potentially more confusing to users) than a simple 1 master + several extenders setup.


----------



## bluebsh

starting to see more and more tivo mini references...

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2494

look at the supported devices for the apps... tivo mini is listed for them


----------



## jjd_87

Common already! I'm tired of waiting on this thing! I had decided to hold off on a bedroom tv in our new place until this thing came out. I'm starting to rethink that decision.


----------



## Philmatic

It's clear that cooperative scheduling between multiple TiVo's in a peer to peer fashion or a unfied NPL are NOT in TiVo's plans. They are *very clearly* moving to a master/slave configuration with a single TiVo Premiere 4 as the master and the TiVo Minis as the slave.

All the season passes, scheduling and recording is to be handled normally by the master TiVo, and the Mini's can only modify/play/delete those recordings and manage the season passes and scheduling through RPC.

I would have rather liked to see something like a unified NPL and tuner pooling, I'm fine with this approach as long as the Mini's are subscription free, and they release a newer model with beefier hardware, 4-6 tuners and built in TiVo Stream functionality.


----------



## mr_smits

This model makes sense. I, too, would like to see a 6 tuner model with built in Stream capability and the ability to run 2-3 Minis.


----------



## compnurd

Philmatic said:


> It's clear that cooperative scheduling between multiple TiVo's in a peer to peer fashion or a unfied NPL are NOT in TiVo's plans. They are *very clearly* moving to a master/slave configuration with a single TiVo Premiere 4 as the master and the TiVo Minis as the slave.
> 
> All the season passes, scheduling and recording is to be handled normally by the master TiVo, and the Mini's can only modify/play/delete those recordings and manage the season passes and scheduling through RPC.
> 
> I would have rather liked to see something like a unified NPL and tuner pooling, I'm fine with this approach as long as the Mini's are subscription free, and they release a newer model with beefier hardware, 4-6 tuners and built in TiVo Stream functionality.


I dont think so.. Based on Comments from Magaret on Twitter they are planning on collaborative playlists and scheduling. But it wasnt coming until the next Sprint Update


----------



## Dan203

Jonathan_S said:


> The problem with that is that the marching orders should change if a TiVo goes offline. Unfortunately, the 'best' solution depends on whether the TiVo simply dropped off the network or if it's actually unable to record; and there's no way for the other TiVo's to know which is true.
> 
> I'll give a simplified example; assume 2 TiVos, each with 2 tuners. At 8pm there are 3 shows scheduled to record, both TiVos know this and know the recording priority A, B, C. Assume TiVo 1 is scheduled to record the two highest priority shows (A & B) while TiVo 2 picked up the spare (C)
> 
> Now at 7:55 the connection to TiVo 1 drops; what does TiVo 2 do?
> It's got two basic options - stick with the old plan and hope TiVo 1 picks up the higher priority recordings or dump C to be sure A & B get recorded.
> 
> If TiVo 1 lost power, then arguably choice 2 is better. You get the two shows you've said are more important, at the expense of show C.
> 
> But if the network went down, but both TiVos were running you're probably going to be annoyed you got two copies of A and of B, but no recording of C.
> 
> And the network just going down while both TiVos are up isn't that crazy an situation if wifi is in the mix. At least as my house someone making popcorn in the microwave will kill the wifi temporarily. Oops.
> 
> You've also got the issue (although less likely to be time critical) of over-scheduling recordings on the TiVo while off-network. Although you could prevent this by refusing to schedule more recording than you have local tuners unless you can actively talk to the other TiVo to pass the extra along. (Although that just brings up a different user interface annoyance)
> 
> None of this is insolvable, but it all make this more complicated (and potentially more confusing to users) than a simple 1 master + several extenders setup.


Good example and the exact type of problem I was trying to explain. (yours was much more clear)

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

compnurd said:


> I dont think so.. Based on Comments from Magaret on Twitter they are planning on collaborative playlists and scheduling. But it wasnt coming until the next Sprint Update


I got the impression more that they would like to do that, but technically it isn't something that could easily be added. It doesn't seem to fit their current design so it would require thinking the whole process.


----------



## compnurd

innocentfreak said:


> I got the impression more that they would like to do that, but technically it isn't something that could easily be added. It doesn't seem to fit their current design so it would require thinking the whole process.


Yeh not sure. I specifically asked her about it because Direct TV does it and she mentioned Spring


----------



## jcthorne

I see the combined NPL list as a significantly easier task to complete than the cooperative scheduling. 

I would be very happy just to get the combined NPL and notification of scheduling conflicts with tivo asking if I would like to send the task to another tivo on the network. IE no real time processing, just updates based on reciept of guide data and the current todo list.


----------



## Dan203

A combined My Shows (new name, get use to it ) would be nice. However I hope there is a way to turn it off. My wife and I each have our own TiVos with our own shows and if it showed me all the crap she records in my My Shows list it would be very annoying.

I also think schedule time conflict resolution is entirely possible. When scheduling a one time show that generated a conflict it would be very easy for them to prompt the user and ask if they would like to schedule it on another TiVo instead. However I would not want to be constantly bombarded by conflict messages from automatic recordings. Although perhaps they could add a simple dialog to the To Do List or Recording History that would allow you to manually schedule a conflict recording on an alternate TiVo.

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> A combined My Shows (new name, get use to it ) would be nice. However I hope there is a way to turn it off. My wife and I each have our own TiVos with our own shows and if it showed me all the crap she records in my My Shows list it would be very annoying.


This is also why we need User Profiles and permissions first.

Assign a primary profile to each box and set permissions on who can delete from another TiVo or app. This way say you delete something she wants to watch it only hides it from your view, but under her profile it would still show up until she deleted it.


----------



## jmpage2

TiVo better get their collective asses in gear, because the DirecTV solution that handles up to 8 rooms is available now, and it's FREE for new subscribers.

Engadget has a review up and it is mostly favorable.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/29/directv-genie-whole-home-dvr-review/#continued


----------



## atmuscarella

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo better get their collective asses in gear, because the DirecTV solution that handles up to 8 rooms is available now, and it's FREE for new subscribers.
> 
> Engadget has a review up and it is mostly favorable.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/29/directv-genie-whole-home-dvr-review/#continued


TiVo isn't going to offer a Satellite solution until the FCC forces the Satellite companies to open up their networks which may never happen. And my guess is that DirectTV isn't going to offer any new/updated TiVo solutions directly so I am not sure it matters much what DirectTV is doing (or Dishnetwork and AT&T for that matter).

What this is a good example of is why TiVo will never be able to compete on price (again unless the FCC is willing to do something about it).

DirectTV is bundling this DVR into new subscriber packages (it isn't free there just isn't a separate line item billing you for it). At least I don't consider signing a 2 year contract and having to pay a monthly fee "free" which is the only way you can get this DVR. So even if the FCC opened up Satellite they would also have to force DirectTV & Dishnetwork to give you a hardware credit if you brought in your own equipment.


----------



## jmpage2

You miss the point entirely. Most consumers could care less if their TV is piped in over a cable card or a satellite. Both Dish Network and DirecTV have multi room systems on the market being offered at attractive prices, contract or otherwise and TiVo continues to fumble. 

You are against contracts which is fine, but most Americans could care less.


----------



## jcthorne

I don't consider $120+ a month for service 'attractive prices'

No, indeed my whole home Tivo solution is far more cost effective in very short term. Direct TV is charging quite a lot for that DVR, essentially making you pay the purchase price over again annually every year.

If 'most Americans' feel a 2 year contract with a total cost of over $2000 a better deal than Tivo then it is doubtful any reasoned argument could persuade.


----------



## magnus

jcthorne said:


> I don't consider $120+ a month for service 'attractive prices'
> 
> No, indeed my whole home Tivo solution is far more cost effective in very short term. Direct TV is charging quite a lot for that DVR, essentially making you pay the purchase price over again annually every year.
> 
> If 'most Americans' feel a 2 year contract with a total cost of over $2000 a better deal than Tivo then it is doubtful any reasoned argument could persuade.


I agree 100%. Most people think its free but don't stop to think about the true cost. Directv has it all rolled up into their monthly service fees. It's funny that people somehow think they get anything for "free" from a big company like Directv.


----------



## atmuscarella

jmpage2 said:


> You miss the point entirely. Most consumers could care less if their TV is piped in over a cable card or a satellite. Both Dish Network and DirecTV have multi room systems on the market being offered at attractive prices, contract or otherwise and TiVo continues to fumble.
> 
> You are against contracts which is fine, but most Americans could care less.


If your point is TiVo should have this done by now then yes we agree.

However I don't agree that most consumers will switch pay TV providers based on a DVR. If a DVR were the consumers primary concern then no one would have a cable DVR and most people would have switch to DiretTV or Dishnetwork long ago.

My point was that you can not shop for DVRs based on price both cable and satellite companies bundle some or all of the cost of their DVRs into their package costs.

That said DirectTV charges existing customers $300 for this DVR as an up front rental fee (plus a monthly charge) and a $100 upfront rental fee for the extenders.


----------



## NYHeel

jcthorne said:


> I don't consider $120+ a month for service 'attractive prices'
> 
> No, indeed my whole home Tivo solution is far more cost effective in very short term. Direct TV is charging quite a lot for that DVR, essentially making you pay the purchase price over again annually every year.
> 
> If 'most Americans' feel a 2 year contract with a total cost of over $2000 a better deal than Tivo then it is doubtful any reasoned argument could persuade.


I had Directv for awhile and I never paid $120 a month for service. I was paying around 60-70 or so depending on how many boxes I had active. I had all the "regular channels" and got the premium stuff when it was free for awhile.


----------



## jmpage2

magnus said:


> I agree 100%. Most people think its free but don't stop to think about the true cost. Directv has it all rolled up into their monthly service fees. It's funny that people somehow think they get anything for "free" from a big company like Directv.


People also think they are getting a "FREE" cell phone when they sign a 2 year contract.

As far as monthly charges, no one can compete with Comcast... they are the highest. My wife and I get no premium channels and only get one tier up from basic cable.... our monthly bill for "TV" which includes the rental/outlet fees on a couple of TiVo units is over $90 a month.... and that only gets us viewing in two rooms of our huge home.

DirecTV or Dish Network are now far more affordable for getting similar programming as well as the ability to watch both live TV and HD recordings in multiple rooms of the house.

The only thing that's keeping me on TiVo at this point is the TiVo stream and the tissue thin promise of a whole-home solution that TiVo may or may not deliver in the next six months.

As of late TiVo seems more interested in patent litigation than in making great products. The fact that the full HD interface on their flagship DVR is still not done over 2 years after launch speaks volumes about their priorities these days.


----------



## crxssi

jmpage2 said:


> People also think they are getting a "FREE" cell phone when they sign a 2 year contract.


Indeed. It drives me crazy. I will even correct sales people when they say things like "the phone costs only $100" by telling them "no, the down-payment on that $500 phone is only $100."

It is a clever marketing trick that seems to have duped the vast majority of Americans, who end up paying more in the long run for all types of things.

The word "free" is so twisted and corrupted it is now meaningless. "Buy 2 get one free" is nonsense- if you have to do something or pay something, then there is nothing "free" about it. It is "Buy 2 get one at no additional charge".

Ug!


----------



## atmuscarella

crxssi said:


> ... It is "Buy 2 get one at no additional charge".
> 
> Ug!


Actually the "Buy 2 get one free" gimmick is nothing more than a marketing tool to sell 3 for X dollars.

Basically because chain stores have no one to negotiate price with people have forgotten that an items selling price is a negotiation between the buyer and the seller.

There still is a negotiation but now it is a one way conversation, sellers negotiate by making various offers (via "sales" and other various marketing gimmicks like what we are talking about) until buyers buy. For the most part there are fairly limited ways for buyers to make counter offers.

I remember when my grandmother refused to go to one of the first local chain type stores because they would/could not negotiate price with her and there was no way she was going to pay what they wanted just because they put it on a tag.


----------



## magnus

jmpage2 said:


> People also think they are getting a "FREE" cell phone when they sign a 2 year contract.
> 
> As far as monthly charges, no one can compete with Comcast... they are the highest. My wife and I get no premium channels and only get one tier up from basic cable.... our monthly bill for "TV" which includes the rental/outlet fees on a couple of TiVo units is over $90 a month.... and that only gets us viewing in two rooms of our huge home.
> 
> DirecTV or Dish Network are now far more affordable for getting similar programming as well as the ability to watch both live TV and HD recordings in multiple rooms of the house.
> 
> The only thing that's keeping me on TiVo at this point is the TiVo stream and the tissue thin promise of a whole-home solution that TiVo may or may not deliver in the next six months.
> 
> As of late TiVo seems more interested in patent litigation than in making great products. The fact that the full HD interface on their flagship DVR is still not done over 2 years after launch speaks volumes about their priorities these days.


Just imagine the laugh I had when the AT&T Uverse (Internet) folks told me they were going to give me free wifi. I could not help but laugh at the lady. She tried to tell me their POS router was a good deal at $100 because I would get free wifi.

After I laughed a good couple of seconds then I asked her what I was supposed to do with my $149 router that had wireless N (not just G like theirs).


----------



## jmpage2

magnus said:


> Just imagine the laugh I had when the AT&T Uverse (Internet) folks told me they were going to give me free wifi. I could not help but laugh at the lady. She tried to tell me their POS router was a good deal at $100 because I would get free wifi.
> 
> After I laughed a good couple of seconds then I asked her what I was supposed to do with my $149 router that had wireless N (not just G like theirs).


Not sure why you would get such a laugh out of one-upmanship over some call center minimum wage person who is in all likelihood reading from a script and has no idea what "g" or "n" are, other than both being letters of the alphabet.


----------



## Arcady

atmuscarella said:


> Basically because chain stores have no one to negotiate price with people have forgotten that an items selling price is a negotiation between the buyer and the seller.
> 
> There still is a negotiation but now it is a one way conversation, sellers negotiate by making various offers (via "sales" and other various marketing gimmicks like what we are talking about) until buyers buy. For the most part there are fairly limited ways for buyers to make counter offers.


I negotiate prices in stores all the time. Of course, they usually have to get a manager and most of the time I get really weird looks, but it can still be done. I've gotten 10-25% in places like Best Buy, Target, and even Wal-Mart just by asking and negotiating. Sometimes they even take my first offer.


----------



## slowbiscuit

jmpage2 said:


> People also think they are getting a "FREE" cell phone when they sign a 2 year contract.
> 
> As far as monthly charges, no one can compete with Comcast... they are the highest. My wife and I get no premium channels and only get one tier up from basic cable.... our monthly bill for "TV" which includes the rental/outlet fees on a couple of TiVo units is over $90 a month.... and that only gets us viewing in two rooms of our huge home.
> 
> DirecTV or Dish Network are now far more affordable for getting similar programming as well as the ability to watch both live TV and HD recordings in multiple rooms of the house.


This is another YMMV - I've been on the Comcast double play promo for two years now and recently extended for another year. It's $80 for all channels and 20mbps internet (Blast). That and Cablecard are what keep me using them. I am fortunate that I can play U-Verse and both satco's off against Comcast when my promo expires, so I'm willing to wait and see what Tivo delivers with the Mini. 
Right now I'm using a Media Center PC and a couple of Xboxes and Linksys DMA's for whole-home on secondary sets, but my Tivo Elite is my main DVR. If the Minis work well and get cheap enough, that could change.


----------



## Philmatic

magnus said:


> Just imagine the laugh I had when the AT&T Uverse (Internet) folks told me they were going to give me free wifi. I could not help but laugh at the lady. She tried to tell me their POS router was a good deal at $100 because I would get free wifi.
> 
> After I laughed a good couple of seconds then I asked her what I was supposed to do with my $149 router that had wireless N (not just G like theirs).


I don't have to imagine your laugh, I'm laughing right now at the thought of you paying $149 for an "N" router when they aren't worth more than $60, dual band and all.


----------



## HazelW

Comcast actually gives you a "free" N router. I do think you need to give it back if you leave Comcast, but there is no up front cost or monthly fee.


----------



## magnus

Philmatic said:


> I don't have to imagine your laugh, I'm laughing right now at the thought of you paying $149 for an "N" router when they aren't worth more than $60, dual band and all.


Yep, not saying that I actually paid that... it was MSRP.


----------



## magnus

jmpage2 said:


> Not sure why you would get such a laugh out of one-upmanship over some call center minimum wage person who is in all likelihood reading from a script and has no idea what "g" or "n" are, other than both being letters of the alphabet.


Um, cause it was funny.


----------



## Arcady

I got an N router off the clearance shelf at Target for $19. But I use it for things that actually need wireless, not for a TiVo.


----------



## davezatz

HazelW said:


> Comcast actually gives you a "free" N router. I do think you need to give it back if you leave Comcast, but there is no up front cost or monthly fee.


My Verizon modem/router, with MoCA, is 802.11n and also "free". Of course, none of that speeds the Mini to market or influences TiVo's pricing strategy.


----------



## magnus

davezatz said:


> My Verizon modem/router, with MoCA, is 802.11n and also "free". Of course, none of that speeds the Mini to market or influences TiVo's pricing strategy.


Yep, I think we're all too tired of waiting on tivo for this and are getting a little bored. So, we diverged into routers.


----------



## jamesjones_det

Saw that TiVo added TiVo Mini error codes today. At least it seems this thing might actually still be coming, someday...


----------



## Dan203

I'm betting we hear something about it at CES next week

Dan


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting we hear something about it at CES next week
> 
> Dan


Do you mean solid CES rumors or an official announcement? I've heard that Tivo doesn't like to announce at CES as they get lost in the shuffle.


----------



## Dan203

They don't typically announce things, but they do talk to the "press" a bit and we usually hear something from them.

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

mr_smits said:


> Do you mean solid CES rumors or an official announcement? I've heard that Tivo doesn't like to announce at CES as they get lost in the shuffle.


They don't but the Mini is a known product. They could announce details of price and availability. It all depends on if the Mini is ready for prime time.


----------



## davezatz

The Mini was on public display at the Cable Show last spring and has been beta tested all fall, so I think it's a lock to "see" it again. I sure hope info on retail availability will be provided. Also I would hope for some Android Stream demos. In the past, it's true TiVo didn't use CES as much of a launch pad. But they've had quite a bit of personnel change and a more public booth this year, so anything is possible.


----------



## innocentfreak

davezatz said:


> The Mini was on public display at the Cable Show last spring and has been beta tested all fall, so I think it's a lock to "see" it again. I sure hope info on retail availability will be provided. Also I would hope for some Android Stream demos. In the past, it's true TiVo didn't use CES as much of a launch pad. But they've had quite a bit of personnel change and a more public booth this year, so anything is possible.


Are they actually making appointments though?

I wonder also if we might see new remotes from that deal with the one company to make universal remotes.


----------



## wco81

jmpage2 said:


> You miss the point entirely. Most consumers could care less if their TV is piped in over a cable card or a satellite. Both Dish Network and DirecTV have multi room systems on the market being offered at attractive prices, contract or otherwise and TiVo continues to fumble.
> 
> You are against contracts which is fine, but most Americans could care less.


I thought some of the Tivo boxes had MoCA?

So you plug in coax to Tivos on both ends and you have networking between the two?

Presumably Tivo Mini will have MoCA or some kind of hard-wired networking port?


----------



## innocentfreak

I was wondering if you ever heard from them. It will be interesting then to see what if any news comes from TiVo this year.


----------



## tchapin

Wow! I haven't logged in since 2007! This is a super interesting topic.

I had a series 1 TiVo and then a series 2 for a while. When I moved to a home where we wanted multiple rooms, TiVo didn't really have a solid MVR feature set yet. So, I looked into other options and ended up building a SageTV DVR into my home server.

I've had the equivalent functionality to the expected TiVo Mini for years, and it's great. A small, efficient set top box at each TV that pulls its interface from my server. A tuner is only used by a particular box when live TV is being viewed. Otherwise the tuner pool is used for recordings as needed. One unified recording schedule and My Shows list.

The interface isn't as good as TiVo though and the Mini is making me re-interested in TiVo again.

Google bought Sage and killed it then turned it into the DVR portion of their fiber product in Kansas City. I don't have HD yet and am a bit wary of upgrading my server to accommodate.

I the past year, I also bought into Sonos for home audio, and its great. 

Based on my experience with both Sage and Sonos, I see no reason why TiVo couldn't take some of the best of both worlds.
- having a Mini lock up a tuner seems silly; they should be runic ally allocated, like they are on a single box today 
- each Mini interface should work like you're sitting in front of the main TiVo. If you're watching live TV and a scheduled recording pops up and needs that tuner, you should get the same kind of message
- I don't want a tuner built into the box
- I don't want to pay for a subscription
- if this this cold work with my Roku boxes, that'd be great

I find arguments that having cooperative scheduling and a unified My Shows list to be uncompelling. If you're not syncing the actual media files themselves, the meta data involved with sending recording schedules and recorded media lists is relatively small. Changes only need to be synced when they happen, not constantly. And given that most TiVos have at least 2 tuners how, over recording if a box drops off the network can be handled gracefully. Or all boxes come back online, given the metadata, TiVo can detect that two recordings are the same and show only one copy in the My Shows list. If there are conflicts and not enough tuners, they get resolved based on recording priority, just like today.

If someone's home network is unreliable, they have to take some responsibility for that. I know that given the current consumer knowledge of things, that may be difficult, but I see at TiVo only really supports MVR through some sort of wired connection to be the correct choice.

I've read many people's concerns about having a single point of failure if you have only 1 TiVo and it goes down. That's happened to me a few times over the years; I'm running a Windows 7 system and sometimes things happen. The most recent issue was that my IR blaster that controls my cable box malfunctioned while I was away and we didn't get a weeks worth of recordings. That's a pain in the butt. But, we caught up with what we missed with a combination of Apple, Amazon, and Netflix. 

In the past, I had more issues with my TiVos getting locked up for whatever reason than issues with my Sage server. I think I get one real outage a year with my current server.

I terms of losing recordings, I've been lucky enough to have high reliability of my hard drives. I have a 1 TB drive that I don't even bother to back up. I do have my music and photos and movies on a RAID which I back up to my NAS though.

How reliable have people found the hardware of the current TiVo generations? My concern with moving back to TiVo is having my content locked into the TiVo box that I can't extract if I want to upgrade to a new TiVo or the unit dies or whatever. 

I am lucky enough that my home was wired for phone with CAT 5, so I have a pretty robust home network and all of my boxes (with the exception of Sonos) are wired.

Also, I currently only have 1 tuner and we only miss a show or two occasionally. I guess we watch a lot less TV than a lot of people?  I'm not sure what I'd do with 4 tuners!

Come on TiVo, I can't wait for the Mini. There's no way I'm buying multiple full TiVo boxes with their expensive hardware and subscription fees. I can justify the hardware investment in my server (which was in the $2000 range) due to its multi-tasking ability but couldn't do that for multiple rooms of TiVo.

I any case, thanks for reading my ramble.


----------



## wkearney99

Haven't been here since '07 and not using HD... doesn't really say much for keeping up with progress, let alone criticizing a vendor actually delivering solutions people happily use everyday.


----------



## davezatz

innocentfreak said:


> Are they actually making appointments though?


Engadget Ben's got a meeting setup, so that's a good thing. I've repinged them to see if we can set something up - but I'm leaving the show early, have very few slots at this point, and am obviously low on the totem pole with the new regime.


----------



## Jonathan_S

wco81 said:


> I thought some of the Tivo boxes had MoCA?
> 
> So you plug in coax to Tivos on both ends and you have networking between the two?
> 
> Presumably Tivo Mini will have MoCA or some kind of hard-wired networking port?


Yes the 4 tuner Premiere models (4 XL, 4, Elite) all have Moca, though AFAIK none of the 2 tuner TiVos do.

And based on what TiVo's shown it's expected that the Mini will have both MoCA and ethernet (although unlike the 4 tuner Premieres it reportedly can't act as an Ethernet to MoCA bridge; it can use either but can't send traffic between them)


----------



## wco81

As long as they don't try to charge the ridiculous fees for using the Mini.

As it turns out, I saw a Tivo ad on another forum (having nothing to do with tech) and I clicked it to see what their whole home solution was:

Premier DVR to Premier
Premier to PC
Premier to mobile devices via Stream.

Of course I knew it would be an old ad. Hopefully they will have a good story this week.

Otherwise, I may have to re-up with DirecTV for their Genie or the rumored HR44, which may have wireless networking.


----------



## jmpage2

wco81 said:


> I thought some of the Tivo boxes had MoCA?
> 
> So you plug in coax to Tivos on both ends and you have networking between the two?
> 
> Presumably Tivo Mini will have MoCA or some kind of hard-wired networking port?


I think you're missing the point. I was pointing out that most customers could care less if they have a satellite dish or have a coaxial cable coming out of the wall when it comes to how their entertainment is delivered from a provider into their residence.

At the end of the day, the satellite providers all now have "whole home" solutions while TiVo struggles in this area.

And yes, some TiVos have MoCA, but that's not at all what was under discussion.


----------



## jcthorne

Tivo has a very good whole home solution, many just do not like the pricing. Our home currelty has 5 displays connected to 3 Tivos. I can watch any content in any room and schedule recordings from any room. Also can watch any video or listen to any music on our network from any tv in the house. Also every tv uses the same style remote and has the same user interface.

Sounds like a whole home solution to me.

The mini will just make more options for building a whole home solution cheaper but with less capability. Adding a premiere for a second screen currently costs about $450. Adding a mini will cost in the range of $200 (WAG) but will not have a local tuner or recording capablity. The mini will also not support households using OTA broadcast tv.


----------



## jadziedzic

jcthorne said:


> Adding a premiere for a second screen currently costs about $450. Adding a mini will cost in the range of $200 (WAG) but will not have a local tuner or recording capablity.


The cost comparison is not that simple in some markets. Many of us in Comcast land have to pony up an additional $8 or so per month for the "additional digital outlet" fee associated with each CableCARD device, so the combination of a 4-tuner "base unit" plus mini(s) is less expensive. I'd much rather pay $200 ONCE for the TV in the exercise room than $450 PLUS $8 per month ad infinitum.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

jadziedzic said:


> The cost comparison is not that simple in some markets. Many of us in Comcast land have to pony up an additional $8 or so per month for the "additional digital outlet" fee associated with each CableCARD device, so the combination of a 4-tuner "base unit" plus mini(s) is less expensive. I'd much rather pay $200 ONCE for the TV in the exercise room than $450 PLUS $8 per month ad infinitum.


Comcast just raised it to $10 a month in my area so I'm definitely in the market for a couple TiVo minis!


----------



## jmpage2

jcthorne said:


> Tivo has a very good whole home solution, many just do not like the pricing. Our home currelty has 5 displays connected to 3 Tivos. I can watch any content in any room and schedule recordings from any room. Also can watch any video or listen to any music on our network from any tv in the house. Also every tv uses the same style remote and has the same user interface.
> 
> Sounds like a whole home solution to me.
> 
> The mini will just make more options for building a whole home solution cheaper but with less capability. Adding a premiere for a second screen currently costs about $450. Adding a mini will cost in the range of $200 (WAG) but will not have a local tuner or recording capablity. The mini will also not support households using OTA broadcast tv.


You have a different definition of a whole home solution than I do. For what you have to be a "whole home" solution in my eyes, you would at a minimum need integrated schedule management between all of those different tuners.

I think TiVo clearly understands that users like yourself who will buy many TiVos and manually manage recordings among all of them are in the slim minority.... but they DO have many users who would like to access the content from a central TiVo in other rooms of the house... hence the TiVo Mini.


----------



## davezatz

No TiVo Mini on display last night at Digital Experience. I assume they'll talk it about on the CES Show Floor, but I'm guessing no major announcement at this point. Bummer.


----------



## moedaman

jadziedzic said:


> The cost comparison is not that simple in some markets. Many of us in Comcast land have to pony up an additional $8 or so per month for the "additional digital outlet" fee associated with each CableCARD device, so the combination of a 4-tuner "base unit" plus mini(s) is less expensive. I'd much rather pay $200 ONCE for the TV in the exercise room than $450 PLUS $8 per month ad infinitum.


You could always connect the 2-tuner Tivo to ota and stream between it and a 4-tuner cable only Tivo. Use Tivo Desktop (or your prefered 3rd party software) on an older dual-core cpu pc, connect to a third set and there's a whole home solution for you. Sure it's pricier, but at least you'll have 6-tuners to play with and still only pay for one outlet.


----------



## KevinG

I can honestly say that DirecTV has my full attention right now. I'm currently a Comcast subscriber with two lifetime Series 3s. I also have one comcast DVR. We pay over $150 month for triple play (phone/cable/internet) with no "pay" channels.

With cable-card fees going up, and our desire to have TVs in some more rooms (kids are old enough now to have their own), we're looking at a big expense to replace our Series 3s with a premier 4, and a bunch of (mythical?) tivo minis...

We could cover the entire house with a DirecTV subscription, and break about even (keeping phone and internet with comcast) monthly. Surely, we'd have to re-think things when the 2 year agreement is up, because the fees skyrocket...but technology changes fast enough that that isn't much of a concern.

So, we'd be leaving Tivo (very sadly, since I've been a customer since the series 1), and leaving Comcast (gladly) at least for TV services.


----------



## mr_smits

KevinG said:


> we're looking at a big expense to replace our Series 3s with a premier 4, and a bunch of (mythical?) tivo minis...


Many people are waiting for the Tivo Minis to arrive. Just today I read that Verizon FIOS is releasing a whole-house media server with 6 tuners that can use set tops or xboxes or tablets or other devices for viewing content.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it would be great if Tivo could find a distinguishing feature to draw new customers in and keep them as customers. Instead, they are playing catch-up to everyone else in the market.


----------



## innocentfreak

jadziedzic said:


> The cost comparison is not that simple in some markets. Many of us in Comcast land have to pony up an additional $8 or so per month for the "additional digital outlet" fee associated with each CableCARD device, so the combination of a 4-tuner "base unit" plus mini(s) is less expensive. I'd much rather pay $200 ONCE for the TV in the exercise room than $450 PLUS $8 per month ad infinitum.





TWinbrook46636 said:


> Comcast just raised it to $10 a month in my area so I'm definitely in the market for a couple TiVo minis!


Does Comcast charge the same additional fee per cable box? If not have you tried filing a comment to the FCC, especially since Comcast reports the CableCARD fee as just the fee for the CableCARD without the digital outlet fee.


----------



## slowbiscuit

You already know this, I think - Comcast charges their bogus $10 outlet fee per box or card, then we get a measly $2.50 credit or so for using a card (so $10 each box vs. $7.50 a card). They're trying to say that renting an STB only costs $2.50 a month in other words, and the rest is just made-up profit.

Yes, some of us here have filed complaints with the FCC about this. Yes, this is why some of us here want to use Minis, or an HTPC with extenders, or anything to reduce the card count.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

davezatz said:


> No TiVo Mini on display last night at Digital Experience. I assume they'll talk it about on the CES Show Floor, but I'm guessing no major announcement at this point. Bummer.


Please keep us updated in any event. All I could find was a press release from TiVo Research & Analytics breaking down how people fast-forward through commercials. That and everyone's favorite TiVo ambassador Tim Tebow is at CES hawking a line of headphones for some other company.


----------



## kpepling

Engadget has a hands on which really tells you nothing.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


----------



## mr_smits

kpepling said:


> Engadget has a hands on which really tells you nothing.
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


no kidding. we need some details.


----------



## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> Tivo has a very good whole home solution, many just do not like the pricing. Our home currelty has 5 displays connected to 3 Tivos. I can watch any content in any room and schedule recordings from any room. Also can watch any video or listen to any music on our network from any tv in the house. Also every tv uses the same style remote and has the same user interface.
> 
> Sounds like a whole home solution to me.
> 
> The mini will just make more options for building a whole home solution cheaper but with less capability. Adding a premiere for a second screen currently costs about $450. Adding a mini will cost in the range of $200 (WAG) but will not have a local tuner or recording capablity. The mini will also not support households using OTA broadcast tv.


Why won't it support households with OTA? If it can be used with a two tuner Premiere, then wouldn't it have access to anything it records.


----------



## aaronwt

kpepling said:


> Engadget has a hands on which really tells you nothing.
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


Yes, isn't it the same stuff we saw before?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

aaronwt said:


> Yes, isn't it the same stuff we saw before?


No, it had no name last time. *Now* it is officially branded as the Tivo Mini on the box.


----------



## Aero 1

did we know this as a fact already? is this support article new? or was this support article before they mentioned that they will look at dynamic tunning? http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395#instructions



> You can stream recordings from any 2-tuner Premiere series box, but you will be unable to set up your TiVo Mini without a 4-tuner TiVo DVR.


if this is new and they are confirming that a 4 tuner model is needed, im out.


----------



## hungarianhc

Someone in the Engadget comments linked to the following: http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395

This is a bummer. Turns out that you need a 4-tuner box to set it all up. That's pretty annoying. I bought my parents a TiVo Premiere w/ Lifetime service last xmas in hopes that they could add some minis to their house, once the minis were released.


----------



## Aero 1

engadget updated:



> The TiVo Mini is expected to ship this Spring, and the price is still yet to be determined. At launch, the Mini will take over one of the four tuners of the XL4, but dynamic tuner allocation is on the road map. The XL4 will support two Minis and can work with them both at the same time, and you can easily configure the Mini to switch to any TiVo in your house. The experience is almost identical to that of the Premiere, except its much faster. The only missing features are the Premiere's Live TV window in the menus and not all the streaming apps that the Premiere has will make it to the Mini -- have to wait for launch for a list.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Aero 1 said:


> did we know this as a fact already? is this support article new? or was this support article before they mentioned that they will look at dynamic tunning? http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395#instructions
> 
> if this is new and they are confirming that a 4 tuner model is needed, im out.


It's been known that it was a 4-tuner Tivo accessory. It was only the community's hope that it would support 2-tuner boxes equally from the start.

Edit: But as we now know, full 2-tuner support is still on the roadmap.



> Why won't it support households with OTA? If it can be used with a two tuner Premiere, then wouldn't it have access to anything it records.


As a 4-tuner Tivo accessory, by default it doesn't fully support OTA since 4-tuner boxes don't have OTA. However, if someone has a 4-tuner box AND a 2-tuner box, then the Mini can stream recorded content from the 2-tuner box too as a standard MRS client. But a 4-tuner host box is necessary for setup.

As Aero just pointed out, the Engadet article was updated. Full 2-tuner support is still on the roadmap (when dynamic tuner allocation is implemented.)

Spring release.


----------



## DaveDFW

kpepling said:


> Engadget has a hands on which really tells you nothing.
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


From the linked engadget article, I found this statement interesting:

"The experience is almost identical to that of the Premiere, except its [sic] much faster."

Are they saying the Mini has a faster UI experience than the Premiere?


----------



## jcthorne

jmpage2 said:


> You have a different definition of a whole home solution than I do. For what you have to be a "whole home" solution in my eyes, you would at a minimum need integrated schedule management between all of those different tuners.
> 
> I think TiVo clearly understands that users like yourself who will buy many TiVos and manually manage recordings among all of them are in the slim minority.... but they DO have many users who would like to access the content from a central TiVo in other rooms of the house... hence the TiVo Mini.


I left out kmttg, pytivo, vidmgr and jukebox running on the server. With those running, I have an integrated NPL and schedule management as well as whole home video, music and photo servers using the tivo interface.


----------



## Tropic

DaveDFW said:


> From the linked engadget article, I found this statement interesting:
> 
> "The experience is almost identical to that of the Premiere, except its [sic] much faster."
> 
> Are they saying the Mini has a faster UI experience than the Premiere?


Yes, I believe so.


----------



## jcthorne

aaronwt said:


> Why won't it support households with OTA? If it can be used with a two tuner Premiere, then wouldn't it have access to anything it records.


Very simple, 4 tuner tivo only = no OTA. 2 tuner tivos cannot allocate a tuner to the mini.

Even if one were a catv household and decided to own a 4 tuner AND a 2 tuner tivo, you still would not be able to watch live OTA broadcasts as the 2 tuner will not allocate a tuner to the mini.

Mini = catv only. At least a launch. Maybe someday there will be a 4 tuner with OTA or the mini/tivo software will be updated to support dynamic tuner allocation for mini support on 2 tuner tivos. This would likely be complete sometime just after the HD menus are complete on the 2 tuner premieres. IE don't purchase betting on future completions. Tivo has a long history of never completing planned paths forward.

For now, multi-tivo solutions provide a very complete if somewhat different whole home solution that integrates OTA and catv and network media in the home.


----------



## bluebsh

So the Tivo Mini is at Ces2013? http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/ interesting... spring release speculated though? ugh


----------



## djwilso

So if a tuner is allocated to the Mini, does that mean that you will no longer be able to record 4 programs at the same time?

And if this is the case, would that restriction be removed when the dynamic tuner allocation upgrade/enhancement is implemented?


----------



## zubinh

Well just the fact that someone at engadget spoke to a Tivo rep and was informed it will be out in the spring is at least some sort of confirmation we never had before.


----------



## djwilso

bluebsh said:


> So the Tivo Mini is at Ces2013? http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/ interesting... spring release speculated though? ugh


From the pictures in that article, it looks like it has the following connections:

Moca
Component output via dongle cable
Composite output via dongle cable
HDMI output
Ethernet
USB*
Power input

*Anyone know what the USB connector's purpose will be? If it's not USB, then what might it be?


----------



## jrtroo

djwilso said:


> *Anyone know what the USB connector's purpose will be? If it's not USB, then what might it be?


Remote control. The pics show a slide, which makes me think these pictures are the same as those used in prior articles.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

djwilso said:


> So if a tuner is allocated to the Mini, does that mean that you will no longer be able to record 4 programs at the same time?
> 
> And if this is the case, would that restriction be removed when the dynamic tuner allocation upgrade/enhancement is implemented?


Yes and yes. At the beginning, it'll permanently hijack the tuner. A 4-tuner DVR becomes a 3-tuner DVR. Once updated down the road, it'll borrow and release it as needed instead, mitigating that.


----------



## Philmatic

Spring? Ugh... come on TiVo!


----------



## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes and yes. At the beginning, it'll permanently hijack the tuner. A 4-tuner DVR becomes a 3-tuner DVR. Once updated down the road, it'll borrow and release it as needed instead, mitigating that.


Actually, based on the setting available in the most recent software release, it appears that you can turn that off if you're not interested in live TV viewing. So basically if you want to be able to watch live TV on a Mini then it will turn your 4 tuner box into a 3 tuner box, but if you don't care about live TV then your 4 tuners stay intact and the Mini can only stream recorded shows. (actually it says it works with two minis, and the option allows two tuners to be allocated to streaming, so you could actually make your 4 tuner box a 2 tuner box if you wanted two Minis both with live TV support)

Dan


----------



## dave13077

Philmatic said:


> Spring? Ugh... come on TiVo!


Yea I know what you mean. If this was released 6 months ago I would have bought one, maybe two. Since I was really only looking for live TV on a couple of extra TVs, and with the recent announcement that Time Warner is going to be available on a Roku for free, I am going that route since I already have a Roku. Day late and dollar short it seems once again.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yes and yes. At the beginning, it'll permanently hijack the tuner. A 4-tuner DVR becomes a 3-tuner DVR. Once updated down the road, it'll borrow and release it as needed instead, mitigating that.


That 4-tuner becomes a 2-tuner if you want to use a mini in more than one room which is why I was hoping for a 6-tuner model. I imagine dynamically allocated tuners will come alongside cooperative scheduling so probably quite a ways off, maybe next year.


----------



## Dan203

I'm betting dynamic tuner allocation happens this year. Perhaps even before the Mini is released to retail. It seems that TiVo would have to put a lot of extra marketing and support effort into explaining why the Mini only works if you have a 4 tuner box if they release it without dynamic tuner allocation. They might be better off just waiting until that's working before the release it to the public. Their MSO partners can use it as-is because they can control the users setup, but retail is much more dynamic and needs a more flexible solution.

Dan


----------



## djwilso

jrtroo said:


> Remote control. The pics show a slide, which makes me think these pictures are the same as those used in prior articles.


Ah, ok, thanks. I was hoping it wasn't going to somehow be a connection for a dreaded tuning adapter.


----------



## djwilso

TWinbrook46636 said:


> That 4-tuner becomes a 2-tuner if you want to use a mini in more than one room which is why I was hoping for a 6-tuner model. I imagine dynamically allocated tuners will come alongside cooperative scheduling so probably quite a ways off, maybe next year.


I'm really hoping the next TiVo will be 6 or 8 tuners as well.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

CableCARD supports a maximum of 6 streams so I think it will happen, just a question of when. Obviously it would make more sense to do it at the same time as the TiVo mini but I guess not.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> Actually, based on the setting available in the most recent software release, it appears that you can turn that off if you're not interested in live TV viewing. So basically if you want to be able to watch live TV on a Mini then it will turn your 4 tuner box into a 3 tuner box, but if you don't care about live TV then your 4 tuners stay intact and the Mini can only stream recorded shows. (actually it says it works with two minis, and the option allows two tuners to be allocated to streaming, so you could actually make your 4 tuner box a 2 tuner box if you wanted two Minis both with live TV support)


Yes, I know, that too.  I was keeping it simple for the purpose of the explanation.



Dan203 said:


> I'm betting dynamic tuner allocation happens this year. Perhaps even before the Mini is released to retail. It seems that TiVo would have to put a lot of extra marketing and support effort into explaining why the Mini only works if you have a 4 tuner box if they release it without dynamic tuner allocation. They might be better off just waiting until that's working before the release it to the public. Their MSO partners can use it as-is because they can control the users setup, but retail is much more dynamic and needs a more flexible solution.


At this point, I'm betting it won't happen before release. If they were confident this would be resolved before the now-spring release, they'd say so. Fixed later in the fall? Yeah could be, but that's just my WAG.


----------



## Dan203

TWinbrook46636 said:


> CableCARD supports a maximum of 6 streams so I think it will happen, just a question of when. Obviously it would make more sense to do it at the same time as the TiVo mini but I guess not.


I don't think we've even seen a prototype of the Pace 6 tuner unit announced last spring, so a consumer version is probably still a ways off. With the Elite/XL4 they released to MSOs first and then released to the public like 4 months later. The same will likely happen with the 6 tuner unit. I'm betting the soonest we see a 6 tuner unit is in the fall, and probably not until sometime next year.

Dan


----------



## NoVa

I'm going to be a pessimist here & speculate that because of various licensing & side deals with the content providers (cable systems/networks, etc.) the Mini was shown late last Spring (May?) & now only comes back for an 'appearance' now, it will Spring of 2013 before we see it in action.

And then the 5+ tuner boxes have never even appeared in the wild save for the Pace 6 tuner concept & so I don't expect a TiVo version to appear anytime this year.

& I'm moving into a new house in 3 months & would have like to command & control live streaming TV too without the bulky cable boxes or multi TiVo boxes. So it would have made me really happy these things come to reality.

Now I have to look at a dish system to somewhat have a hassle free replication of a multi room live/DVR viewing.


----------



## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> Very simple, 4 tuner tivo only = no OTA. 2 tuner tivos cannot allocate a tuner to the mini.
> 
> Even if one were a catv household and decided to own a 4 tuner AND a 2 tuner tivo, you still would not be able to watch live OTA broadcasts as the 2 tuner will not allocate a tuner to the mini.
> 
> Mini = catv only. At least a launch. Maybe someday there will be a 4 tuner with OTA or the mini/tivo software will be updated to support dynamic tuner allocation for mini support on 2 tuner tivos. This would likely be complete sometime just after the HD menus are complete on the 2 tuner premieres. IE don't purchase betting on future completions. Tivo has a long history of never completing planned paths forward.
> 
> For now, multi-tivo solutions provide a very complete if somewhat different whole home solution that integrates OTA and catv and network media in the home.


It should still be able to access any OTA recordings from a two tuner Premiere. So you should be able to watch something that is only a few seconds behind live if it is recording from a two tuner box.

The thing that bothers me is they say a Spring release. That means with TiVo it will probably be June, the last part of Spring, when it's released.

I thought they were farther along with the Mini. But release in the Springtime and it still won't have dynamic tuner allocation? I guess there was no way they would have been ready to release it in 4Q 2012?


----------



## crxssi

slowbiscuit said:


> You already know this, I think - Comcast charges their bogus $10 outlet fee per box or card, then we get a measly $2.50 credit or so for using a card (so $10 each box vs. $7.50 a card). They're trying to say that renting an STB only costs $2.50 a month in other words, and the rest is just made-up profit.
> 
> Yes, some of us here have filed complaints with the FCC about this. Yes, this is why some of us here want to use Minis, or an HTPC with extenders, or anything to reduce the card count.


Yes it is a total crock....

Guess what Cox charges for a cable card? $3/mo.


----------



## atmuscarella

bluebsh said:


> So the Tivo Mini is at Ces2013? http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/ interesting... spring release speculated though? ugh


Everyone watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me.


----------



## modnar

crxssi said:


> Yes it is a total crock....
> 
> Guess what Cox charges for a cable card? $3/mo.


My cable company makes you buy the card for $70 and also wants to come "install" it for $39.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The engadget story has a short video demonstration now.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/#continued


----------



## jrtroo

I would buy the card in a heartbeat! I just purchased my own modem to stop the madness of renting one for $7/mo.


----------



## crxssi

jcthorne said:


> Very simple, 4 tuner tivo only = no OTA. 2 tuner tivos cannot allocate a tuner to the mini.
> 
> Even if one were a catv household and decided to own a 4 tuner AND a 2 tuner tivo, you still would not be able to watch live OTA broadcasts as the 2 tuner will not allocate a tuner to the mini.
> 
> Mini = catv only. At least a launch. Maybe someday there will be a 4 tuner with OTA or the mini/tivo software will be updated to support dynamic tuner allocation for mini support on 2 tuner tivos. This would likely be complete sometime just after the HD menus are complete on the 2 tuner premieres. IE don't purchase betting on future completions. Tivo has a long history of never completing planned paths forward.
> 
> For now, multi-tivo solutions provide a very complete if somewhat different whole home solution that integrates OTA and catv and network media in the home.


We have been through all this before. Really has nothing to do with OTA or CATV. The limitation of a 4 tuner TiVo to connect to the Mini is nothing but a stupid, unnecessary software limitation imposed by TiVo Inc.

I suspect this artificial limitation was _*intentional*_ to get more revenue by trying to force interested customers to upgrade their 2 tuner TiVo's. There is absolutely no rational programming reason to need ANY tuners in a TiVo to use a Mini to stream already recorded content (just give an option for turning off "live" TV on the Mini).

I hazard to guess the majority of Mini owners would't care at all if it supports "live" TV or not, anyway. I know I certainly wouldn't care- I use DVR's *BECAUSE* I don't want "live" TV. And if I wanted to watch something happening "now", I can just schedule it NOW and watch it NOW!


----------



## crxssi

atmuscarella said:


> Everyone watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me.


Well, then a Mini is never in my future, ever. The end.


----------



## moyekj

atmuscarella said:


> Everyone watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me.


 If box with lifetime > $200 then I'm not interested. $150 with lifetime I would buy without hesitation. Certainly no interest at all in monthly charge however low it may be. 4 tuner host requirement is stupid (especially since you can tell host unit to not dedicate any tuners to the Mini) but since I already have a 4 tuner device that requirement would not stop me from getting one.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

crxssi said:


> Guess what Cox charges for a cable card? $3/mo.


Cox charges $2 in AZ


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Yes, the video confirms the monthly fee will be "less" and a lifetime option will be available too. Disappointing. Anything over $200 all told will be a deal breaker for me.


----------



## mrizzo80

So the Mini was announced almost a year ago, all they'll say is the retail release will be sometime in "Spring 2013", did not give hardware pricing, there will be a TBD monthly service fee that is less than a full DVR, works only with 4 tuner models, permanently hijacks one of those tuners, and over-the-top services compatibility is unknown? 

If Netflix is supported, I'm betting they would've made effort to note that. So I guess that means Netflix won't work on this thing. Would anybody be surprised if dynamic tuner allocation is still not possible until calendar year 2015? I wouldn't. We're 3 years into the Premiere release with a yet-to-be-finished HDUI.

I understand many of these things were previously rumored to be true. But I'm pretty surprised by the OTT content issue and them not providing a firm release date or any pricing (hardware or subscription) info.

Swwiiiiiiing and a miss...


----------



## Test

atmuscarella said:


> Everyone watch the video they demo it and clearly say there is going to be monthly fee or lifetime option seems like pretty big news to me.


That has to be wrong. Haven't watched yet, was it a TiVo rep giving the demo or just some guy? What service are you buying? It has no tuners, so no guide data. I'm already paying a monthly fee for the tuner it needs to steal on my XL4.

Why wouldn't the stream have a service fee? Makes no sense.


----------



## spaldingclan

it's a Tivo rep giving the demo.


----------



## DaveDFW

Test said:


> That has to be wrong. Haven't watched yet, was it a TiVo rep giving the demo or just some guy? What service are you buying? It has no tuners, so no guide data. I'm already paying a monthly fee for the tuner it needs to steal on my XL4.
> 
> Why wouldn't the stream have a service fee? Makes no sense.


Why would there be a fee for the Mini and no fee for the Stream? It sounds like either an uninformed comment from the demonstrator or another tone-deaf decision from Tivo which will doom the Mini.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Foremost, we don't know the nature of Tivo's contract with Tribune. They may have to pay Tribune for the guide data (but not the data on the iApp). This payment is relatively tiny, though. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but the retail price of the box better be cheap if they're going to stick us with a fee or lifetime.


----------



## steve614

Test said:


> It has no tuners, so no guide data.


From the video, it looked like to me the guide data is supplied on the unit.
It seemed like it came up way faster than the time it would take to send all that data over the LAN.


----------



## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Foremost, we don't know the nature of Tivo's contract with Tribune. They may have to pay Tribune for the guide data (but not the data on the iApp). This payment is relatively tiny, though. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but the retail price of the box better be cheap if they're going to stick us with a fee or lifetime.


Why would it need to pay for guide data it can't use? The Mini has no local storage and cannot record anything. It is just a streaming device.

This whole "mini" thing is a total clusterf**k now, if you ask me. TiVo is trying to find ways to force yet another revenue stream rather than just selling a capable and compatible device to make their DVR's more competitive and attractive.

FAIL: Already way too late. 
FAIL: Restricted to only certain TiVos.
FAIL: Fees.


----------



## sbiller

steve614 said:


> From the video, it looked like to me the guide data is supplied on the unit.
> It seemed like it came up way faster than the time it would take to send all that data over the LAN.


I'm guessing that TiVo has to pay Tribune (TMS) fees per unit along with other monthly fees associated with other components of the Mini. The Stream probably doesn't have those fees. I suspect that the fees to TiVo are less than $2/mo (pure speculation). With Verizon FiOS charging $11.99 per set-top-box for their whole home solution I'm still thinking the Mini will be a very attractive solution for many retail users. One Cable Card fee streaming to a couple of Mini's in the home.


----------



## Philmatic

Here's the actual quote:



> "And that's the TiVo Mini. The great thing about it is it's gonna have a great cost savings compared to the DVR, so when you wanna expand your whole home setup, and you wanna set this up in different rooms, let's say the kids bedroom or the master bedroom, *you're gonna have a less-expensive hardware-initial hardware cost and then the monthly fee will also be less, you can also choose to do a lifetime service for the TiVo Mini.*"


Source: http://www.viddler.com/v/184e41d8


----------



## sfm

Agreed with other complainers 

This seems to be a total cluster f**k at least with respect to what has been reported as to how it will work out of the box. This is what I want:

- 4 tuner tivo connected to the living room tv (to replace my current dual 2 tuner tivo setup) so that I only have a single outlet fee associated (comcast sucker here)
- tivo mini in the home theater so that I can stream any recording from the 4 tuner tivo and, on occasion, watch live tv WITHOUT having to permanently remove that tuner from the pool of recordable tuners.
- ditto for our other TV in the office.
- one time cost for the mini itself.

As I understand it I would only have 2 tuners available to record on the 4 tuner box (if I want to watch live tv on the minis). I'm skeptical of the promised "dynamic tuner allocation"... been burned before by promises of "future features" with Tivo that never delivered. 

If the mini fees/lifetime are associated with guide data why couldn't the mini pull the guide data from the host tivo (or does the fact that it displays guide data at all incur the fees from the guide data provider)?


----------



## Philmatic

I keep this short and succinct: Anything more than $250 including hardware and "Lifetime Service" and they can GTFO.

Also the idea that some OTT video providers won't be available is a bit mind-boggling to me. License schmicense, if Roku can do it at a $50 price point and no monthly fees, then why can't you TiVo?


----------



## MichaelK

well I'm about done waiting. Going to try and figure out some other way to spend the money i had set aside for a mini. What a mess.

People would be foolish to buy these things at launch. unless the lifetime service or monthly fees are extremely cheap they will likely sell 6. (yes 6). At that point they will get rid of the subscription fee and anyone who paid it will get a worthless apology gift. Remember $99 HMO on the series 2?

They already know the problems of trying to sell DVR's with a monthly fee, why not just bundle the lifetime fee in the price? Unless they plan the MSRP + lifetime to be so high so they think it best to break it apart. If so see my prediction of 6 above- lol.


----------



## DaveDFW

Philmatic said:


> I keep this short and succinct: Anything more than $250 including hardware and "Lifetime Service" and they can GTFO.


Why should the Mini cost more than the Stream? If the Mini comes in at more than $129 then Tivo can take a hike.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

mrizzo80 said:


> So the Mini was announced almost a year ago, all they'll say is the retail release will be sometime in "Spring 2013", did not give hardware pricing, there will be a TBD monthly service fee that is less than a full DVR, works only with 4 tuner models, permanently hijacks one of those tuners, and over-the-top services compatibility is unknown?
> 
> If Netflix is supported, I'm betting they would've made effort to note that. So I guess that means Netflix won't work on this thing. Would anybody be surprised if dynamic tuner allocation is still not possible until calendar year 2015? I wouldn't. We're 3 years into the Premiere release with a yet-to-be-finished HDUI.
> 
> I understand many of these things were previously rumored to be true. But I'm pretty surprised by the OTT content issue and them not providing a firm release date or any pricing (hardware or subscription) info.
> 
> Swwiiiiiiing and a miss...


They mentioned hulu and Xfinity On Demand for OTT content so I'm sure it supports Netflix as well.


----------



## crxssi

DaveDFW said:


> Why should the Mini cost more than the Stream? If the Mini comes in at more than $129 then Tivo can take a hike.


The Stream does much less and has no remote. Even so, as has been said, Roku can put out a 1080P HD set-top streaming device with motion control remote, wifi, ethernet, micro SD slot, bluetooth, and usb for under $100 with no "fees", so why can't TiVo?

http://www.amazon.com/Roku-XS-1080p...3?ie=UTF8&qid=1357707462&sr=8-3&keywords=roku

*ATTENTION TiVo: if you can't figure out how to make something people want and without fees and stupid artificial limitations, then give up on selling additional hardware and just add streaming support for THIRD PARTY DEVICES LIKE THE ROKU.*


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

A theoretical Roku with a "real" full remote, native mpeg2 playback plus license, a licensed EPG, and MoCA would likely push closer to $150. Just sayin', a price equal to a Roku isn't likely for practical reasons.


----------



## aaronwt

crxssi said:


> Well, then a Mini is never in my future, ever. The end.


Just the opposite for me. One is most definitely in my future, and if/when a six tuner TiVo comes out I will get a second one. It will be nice to get rid of at least one cable card. That is a $4 a month savings for me.

I plan to get a Mini the first day they are available at BestBuy.

Of course it probably won't be out until June.


----------



## Arcady

Unless they can beat the $6.95/mo plus $2/mo cablecard fee I am paying for my third Premiere, I will have no reason to buy this thing.


----------



## SullyND

The only way I can see a subscription option making sense is if the cost of the unit is practically nothing. For instance, if it's $50 with a 1/year contract at $10/mo, or $100 lifetime. If the hardware cost is $100+ I don't see how a subscription could be viable.

If, however, TiVo opened up to other STBs, and charged a subscription fee I could see that work (i.e. $10/mo to turn your Roku into a Mini).


----------



## NotNowChief

aaronwt said:


> Just the opposite for me. One is most definitely in my future, and if/when a six tuner TiVo comes out I will get a second one. It will be nice to get rid of at least one cable card. That is a $4 a month savings for me.
> 
> I plan to get a Mini the first day they are available at BestBuy.
> 
> Of course it probably won't be out until June.


You think that soon? I was figuring, if we're lucky, by next Christmas at best, but only if the planets align, world hunger ends, alien life is discovered on Mars, and a partridge in a pear tree.


----------



## aristoBrat

crxssi said:


> Why would it need to pay for guide data it can't use? The Mini has no local storage and cannot record anything. It is just a streaming device.


If you're using the Mini to watch live TV, wouldn't it be handy to know what's actually on the different channels?


----------



## zubinh

mrizzo80 said:


> So the Mini was announced almost a year ago, all they'll say is the retail release will be sometime in "Spring 2013", did not give hardware pricing, there will be a TBD monthly service fee that is less than a full DVR, works only with 4 tuner models, permanently hijacks one of those tuners, and over-the-top services compatibility is unknown?
> 
> If Netflix is supported, I'm betting they would've made effort to note that. So I guess that means Netflix won't work on this thing. Would anybody be surprised if dynamic tuner allocation is still not possible until calendar year 2015? I wouldn't. We're 3 years into the Premiere release with a yet-to-be-finished HDUI.
> 
> I understand many of these things were previously rumored to be true. But I'm pretty surprised by the OTT content issue and them not providing a firm release date or any pricing (hardware or subscription) info.
> 
> Swwiiiiiiing and a miss...


The amount of time from announcement to launch and then the results of the final execution are in my opinion why Tivo fails to thrive. If it weren't for its successful patent litigation this company would be finished.


----------



## davezatz

jrtroo said:


> Remote control. The pics show a slide, which makes me think these pictures are the same as those used in prior articles.


No, I also saw/photographed that same Mini yesterday and it's paired with what I assume is the original Slide.


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## jmpage2

The fact that the TiVo marketing person clearly says in the engadget video that it will have a monthly fee with an option for lifetime but will be "less" than a full TiVo just shows that TiVo does not get it. We don't want monthly fees and subscriptions on every damn thing in the house. The Mini should be priced like the stream, where it's an appliance that you buy once and that's it.

At this point I suspect that they will price it higher than the 2 tuner premiere and then try to justify it by charging a lower monthly fee and/or lower lifetime.

TiVo, you don't [email protected] get it!

The other irritation is that they also said maximum of two Minis per Premiere. Why should there be a limitation like that if you only want to use the Mini to watch recordings?

Urgh. So flipping annoyed with TiVo marketing morons.


----------



## uw69

jmpage2 said:


> The fact that the TiVo marketing person clearly says in the engadget video that it will have a monthly fee with an option for lifetime but will be "less" than a full TiVo just shows that TiVo does not get it. We don't want monthly fees and subscriptions on every damn thing in the house. The Mini should be priced like the stream, where it's an appliance that you buy once and that's it.
> 
> At this point I suspect that they will price it higher than the 2 tuner premiere and then try to justify it by charging a lower monthly fee and/or lower lifetime.
> 
> TiVo, you don't [email protected] get it!
> 
> The other irritation is that they also said maximum of two Minis per Premiere. Why should there be a limitation like that if you only want to use the Mini to watch recordings?
> 
> Urgh. So flipping annoyed with TiVo marketing morons.


Very disappointing news. I was hoping the mini would be priced to enhance sales of the 4 tuner series 4 boxes. Looks like that may not be the case.


----------



## socrplyr

jmpage2 said:


> The fact that the TiVo marketing person clearly says in the engadget video that it will have a monthly fee with an option for lifetime but will be "less" than a full TiVo just shows that TiVo does not get it. We don't want monthly fees and subscriptions on every damn thing in the house. The Mini should be priced like the stream, where it's an appliance that you buy once and that's it.
> 
> At this point I suspect that they will price it higher than the 2 tuner premiere and then try to justify it by charging a lower monthly fee and/or lower lifetime.
> 
> TiVo, you don't [email protected] get it!
> 
> The other irritation is that they also said maximum of two Minis per Premiere. Why should there be a limitation like that if you only want to use the Mini to watch recordings?
> 
> Urgh. So flipping annoyed with TiVo marketing morons.


I have been seeing a lot of comments like these, and they make me laugh. You are right Tivo doesn't get it, but you are wrong on how they misunderstand their audience. They thought their audience could put two and two together. Apparently not. Lifetime service is exactly what you are saying they don't have. Last time I checked it wasn't monthly and is only paid once. At this point there is no information really about cost so you can't say to much about that at this point.

Other things to think about:
I agree with you that I have little interest in products that have monthly fees (especially such small ones, which probably make not sense compared to the full priced options). Others however don't necessarily work that way. I bet the full stats on number of lifetime vs monthly subs would probably surprise us.
Also, remember that Tivo hasn't really been that successful in the retail market. By splitting the cost out between the box price and the serve (even if you just say Box+Lifetime), probably means that they get to keep more of the money. If the Premiere was $650 with lifetime at the store, I bet the store would get to keep a much larger chunk of money than paying $150 to the store and $500 to Tivo.


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## jmpage2

TiVo clearly doesn't care about the retail market... they are building this solution for MSOs...retail is just a beta use case. which would explain their complete lack of demonstrating or showcasing this on the show floor at CES... and only doing a "nerd interview" with engadget behind closed doors.

I guess we should consider ourselves "lucky" that it's even going to be available at retail the way TiVo views the retail market does not appear to be favorable.

Say it all together now... TiVo wishes that the retail market would go away so they could just sell their boxes or software to MSOs.


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## jcole66

Totally bummed about the details coming out regarding the Mini. As a owner of 2 TiVo Premiers (2 Tuner models) I had hoped to add a Mini to the bedroom just to watch recorded shows from my other TiVo's. I have ZERO desire to watch Live TV, as I NEVER watch Live TV anymore, thanks to having TiVo for 10+ years. 

I do not see why the Mini cannot be setup as a streaming only device to work with 2 Tuner TiVo Premieres. Makes absolutely no sense to me. 

Add on top a monthly fee/Lifetime fee??? WTF are they thinking? Any other rumors regarding the TiVo Stream working with Roku or AppleTV devices? If so, I'll gladly give my $$ to those companies to have the ability to easily stream to another TV.

-Frustrated TiVo Fan...


----------



## NoVa

The appetite for no Mini fees is apparent here...but what about the comps & their Multi-Room viewing clients?

Direct TV /Dish/Comcast - do they charge fees for there streaming client boxes or RVU?



jmpage2 said:


> TiVo clearly doesn't care about the retail market... they are building this solution for MSOs...retail is just a beta use case. which would explain their complete lack of demonstrating or showcasing this on the show floor at CES... and only doing a "nerd interview" with engadget behind closed doors.
> 
> I guess we should consider ourselves "lucky" that it's even going to be available at retail the way TiVo views the retail market does not appear to be favorable.
> 
> Say it all together now... TiVo wishes that the retail market would go away so they could just sell their boxes or software to MSOs.


I'm beginning to believe it.


----------



## mr_smits

NoVa said:


> The appetite for no Mini fees is apparent here...but what about the comps & their Multi-Room viewing clients?
> 
> Direct TV /Dish/Comcast - do they charge fees for there streaming client boxes or RVU?


Since the Mini will replace a traditional Tivo box and cablecard, I expect it to either cost something or have a recurring fee. I also understand why a 4 tuner Premiere is required. There is no such thing as a free lunch. However, the total price has to make sense for consumers to bite. Meaning it has to be less than a traditional Tivo, comparable to competitors, and it should save money on cable card fees. Will Tivo deliver? We shall see.


----------



## L David Matheny

NoVa said:


> The appetite for no Mini fees is apparent here...but what about the comps & their Multi-Room viewing clients?


Unless TiVo's lawyers were duped by Tribune Media's lawyers, TiVo shouldn't be paying any monthly fees for Mini units, and therefore we shouldn't be paying any subscription fees to TiVo. And they should price the unit reasonably so that they can sell as many as possible as quickly as possible. The Mini should be only a transitional product anyway, since future TVs should have streaming capability built in. A box like the Mini is analogous to the digital converter boxes sold during the transition to digital TV.


----------



## mr_smits

L David Matheny said:


> And they should price the unit reasonably so that they can sell as many as possible as quickly as possible. The Mini should be only a transitional product anyway, since future TVs should have streaming capability built in. A box like the Mini is analogous to the digital converter boxes sold during the transition to digital TV.


Tivo is a business, and every business has to make enough money to survive and thrive. That means, the Mini must either be priced at a point where Tivo makes money from it despite the result that people will retire older Tivo boxes that may still be generating revenue (monthly fees). The Mini will cannibalize the monthly fees from occasional use Tivos *and* from purchased box fees. So they have to make their money elsewhere.


----------



## jrtroo

This seems right to me. So, the box should be priced at cost, and then the monthly fee would be the lost opportunity profit not gained from selling a normal premiere. It would be less than a premiere fee since it would not need to recover fixed costs of the box. (plus, of course, any operating costs for software updates and potential tribune costs)


----------



## rainwater

I don't see how this is a surprise to anyone. Clearly TiVo was going to offer these with a lifetime option and now they say they are adding a monthly option too. I don't see what the big deal is.


----------



## aristoBrat

jrtroo said:


> This seems right to me. So, the box should be priced at cost, and then the monthly fee would be the lost opportunity profit not gained from selling a normal premiere. It would be less than a premiere fee since it would not need to recover fixed costs of the box. (plus, of course, any operating costs for software updates and potential tribune costs)


Agreed.

I'm very curious to see what the cost of a mini + lifetime is, in relation to the costs of buying a Premiere + lifetime.

Going forward, I don't see many houses new to TiVo buying multiple Premieres + service, like they do today.


----------



## Test

rainwater said:


> I don't see how this is a surprise to anyone. Clearly TiVo was going to offer these with a lifetime option and now they say they are adding a monthly option too. I don't see what the big deal is.


Clearly? It was clear that they were going to charge a service fee to "borrow" a tuner from a TiVo that already has a service fee?

Unless you mean "lifetime option" like they did on the stream or Roku does on their boxes. 

What I don't get is how they justify the fee anymore. Maybe when they announce the prices it will be more clear. What would I be getting for my $x a month? The stream makes the iPad/iPhone into a TiVo mini with guide data, but there is no fee.


----------



## atmuscarella

aristoBrat said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I'm very curious to see what the cost of a mini + lifetime is, in relation to the costs of buying a Premiere + lifetime.


That is what actually matters and until we have the actually numbers all this bit**ing is premature and fairly foolish.



aristoBrat said:


> Going forward, I don't see many houses new to TiVo buying multiple Premieres + service, like they do today.


Exactly, plus many people want to replace existing TiVos with minis. Anyone who thought TiVo was going to provide a $100 device to replace a $600 DVR was always dreaming.

Right now a new customer could buy 2 Premiers with lifetime for $1200. A Premiere 4 with lifetime will cost them $750 if the mini with lifetime was $250 the total would be $1000 compared to $1200 not allot of savings but something with the same basic reduced cost if someone went monthly instead of lifetime. Then of course they would run "specials" from there.


----------



## atmuscarella

Test said:


> Clearly? It was clear that they were going to charge a service fee to "borrow" a tuner from a TiVo that already has a service fee?


It was always clear they would charge enough one way or the other to have the mini be profitable.



Test said:


> Unless you mean "lifetime option" like they did on the stream or Roku does on their boxes.
> 
> What I don't get is how they justify the fee anymore. Maybe when they announce the prices it will be more clear. What would I be getting for my $x a month? The stream makes the iPad/iPhone into a TiVo mini with guide data, but there is no fee.


As far as I am concerned as long as there is a lifetime option the cost is the total of hardware & lifetime service. If someone thinks that cost is too much that is fine but getting all bent out of shape because TiVo also offers a lower upfront cost with a monthly charge for those that don't want to pay the total cost up front just seems foolish to me.


----------



## Test

atmuscarella said:


> It was always clear they would charge enough one way or the other to have the mini be profitable.
> 
> As far as I am concerned as long as there is a lifetime option the cost is the total of hardware & lifetime service. If someone thinks that cost is too much that is fine but getting all bent out of shape because TiVo also offers a lower upfront cost with a monthly charge for those that don't want to pay the total cost up front just seems foolish to me.


You're missing the point...of course TiVo was going to charge SOMETHING for the mini and of course it would be priced so it was profitable. My question is really what service am I paying for? Like I said earlier hopefully that would be made clear when the prices are announced.


----------



## jmpage2

This happens every time TiVo does something idiotic, like take a small streaming appliance box that should have a flat cost (a la Roku or ATV) and bundle it in with BS service fees..... The TiVo apologists come out in droves to defend their boneheaded decision....

"How do you expect TiVo to survive if they don't charge fees"

"This box will cannibalize other sales"

Etc.

All of this is delivered from the point of view that people will buy TiVo regardless of cost (look at some here that own five or six units), that it's in a vacuum and that there are no other viable alternatives.... unfortunately for TiVo that is no longer the case.

The Mini should not need to pay for any guide data, since the only time it needs guide data is when it's hijacking the tuner from a Premier that already pays for that guide data.

Basically TiVo is trying to prove just how badly they can fail in this market. If they do a service fee on this thing I doubt they will be selling very many of them.

You would think that TiVo would try to aggressively price the Mini to stem the hemorrhaging of existing subscribers to other solutions... as well as attract NEW customers who would buy an XL4 and some Minis vs going with another provider's DVR... instead they are trying to shoot themselves in the foot by viewing the Mini as something that is going to cannibalize their Premieres.

If Apple followed TiVo logic they never would have released an iPad Mini for fear it would kill the goose that laid the golden egg, the original iPad.


----------



## atmuscarella

Test said:


> ... My question is really what service am I paying for? ...


My point is that your question is the wrong one. It is irrelevant what TiVo calls what they charge us all that matters is what we have to pay.

The cost is either hardware + lifetime service or hardware + monthly payment for ever. Hardware + lifetime service is a know fixed amount and everyone gets to decide if it is either acceptable or not. The hardware + monthly payment makes knowing the total cost pretty hard but again each individual gets to decide if it is either acceptable or not.

Getting all rapped up into what TiVo calls the above costs seems like foolishness to me. In the end either the total cost is acceptable or it isn't.


----------



## jrtroo

No (in response to jmpage2), those are real world scenarios they need to consider when ensuring they are profitable. Even if they just made this a fixed cost box, they would be baked into the retail price.

I'm not sure why everyone's panties are so bunged up on there being two price options available at retail. Choice is good. If it is too rich for your blood, don't buy it or go ahead and buy another premiere instead.


----------



## NYHeel

atmuscarella said:


> That is what actually matters and until we have the actually numbers all this bit**ing is premature and fairly foolish.
> 
> Exactly, plus many people want to replace existing TiVos with minis. Anyone who thought TiVo was going to provide a $100 device to replace a $600 DVR was always dreaming.
> 
> Right now a new customer could buy 2 Premiers with lifetime for $1200. A Premiere 4 with lifetime will cost them $750 if the mini with lifetime was $250 the total would be $1000 compared to $1200 not allot of savings but something with the same basic reduced cost if someone went monthly instead of lifetime. Then of course they would run "specials" from there.


I don't think it matters how they price it. The only thing that matters is total cost. I think they aren't going to sell very many of these is the total cost is much higher than $150. Maybe they can get away with $200. I mean upfront cost plus lifetime.

It really doesn't matter that Tivo is replacing a $600 DVR with a $100-$200 device. What matters is what you need to do to stay competitive and what the market will pay.

Did Apple worry about cannabalizing sales of their Macboooks when they made and promoted the iPad at half the price? No. They knew that the next big thing would be tablets and they wanted to get on board even if it ate into their Macbook profits. The market is going to go where it goes. Tivo needs to get on board. It would be like Kodak resisting digital cameras because they make film. It's a losing battle. Just figure out a way to make money off of digital photography (even if it's less money than before) or go out of business.


----------



## Test

atmuscarella said:


> My point is that your question is the wrong one. It is irrelevant what TiVo calls what they charge us all that matters is what we have to pay.
> 
> *The cost is either hardware + lifetime service or hardware + monthly payment for ever.* Hardware + lifetime service is a know fixed amount and everyone gets to decide if it is either acceptable or not. The hardware + monthly payment makes knowing the total cost pretty hard but again each individual gets to decide if it is either acceptable or not.
> 
> Getting all rapped up into what TiVo calls the above costs seems like foolishness to me. In the end either the total cost is acceptable or it isn't.


Why isn't the cost just hardware? What kind of service fees are you paying for on your tv? None? Because it doesn't provide any service? Now, what kind of service fees are you paying for your cell phone? PLENTY? Because it provides an on going service. Just like the TiVo s1-s4, there needs to be a service to go along with service fees.

You can roll their service fees into your lump sum to buy a TiVo outright all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you are paying for hardware+service.


----------



## jmpage2

NYHeel said:


> I don't think it matters how they price it. The only thing that matters is total cost. I think they aren't going to sell very many of these is the total cost is much higher than $150. Maybe they can get away with $200. I mean upfront cost plus lifetime.
> 
> It really doesn't matter that Tivo is replacing a $600 DVR with a $100-$200 device. What matters is what you need to do to stay competitive and what the market will pay.
> 
> Did Apple worry about cannabalizing sales of their Macboooks when they made and promoted the iPad at half the price? No. They knew that the next big thing would be tablets and they wanted to get on board even if it ate into their Macbook profits. The market is going to go where it goes. Tivo needs to get on board. It would be like Kodak resisting digital cameras because they make film. It's a losing battle. Just figure out a way to make money off of digital photography (even if it's less money than before) or go out of business.


You've hit it on the head... their strategy is terrible for the retail market. It seems as though the product was made for the MSO market where they can sell a large volume of units to MSOs who will then recoup costs by charging their subscribers a monthly fee.

TiVo can't get out of the box they have put themselves in on how to approach the retail market... so now they are making products for MSO market and then selling them at retail even if the sales are weak and they are losing market share.

If I could wave a wand I could fix all of this....

1. Build a six tuner Premiere with a more powerful CPU and *integrated stream functionality*.

2. Bill this as the entertainment hub for the family room and ONLY offer it with a monthly service fee (no lifetime). Get a cut of revenues on other services that are provided through the solution (Amazon VOD, Netflix, Pandora, etc)

3. Provide the ability to access this content from as many other devices as possible (Roku, ATV, directly from smart TVs, etc) over ethernet, MoCA and 802.11ac high speed wi-fi.

4. Offer your own "premium" box that extends the hub to other rooms with the full experience, including live TV. Charge a flat price for this box that will *drive uptake of your profitable hub that has a monthly fee*.

See, I just fixed TiVo, now why can't the CEO?


----------



## L David Matheny

jmpage2 said:


> If Apple followed TiVo logic they never would have released an iPad Mini for fear it would kill the goose that laid the golden egg, the original iPad.


Right. Apple knows that even if they didn't release something like the iPad Mini, somebody else would have. As you say, they don't operate in a vacuum. Smart companies would rather eat into the sales of their own existing products than watch while other companies eat their lunch.


----------



## compnurd

jmpage2 said:


> You've hit it on the head... their strategy is terrible for the retail market. It seems as though the product was made for the MSO market where they can sell a large volume of units to MSOs who will then recoup costs by charging their subscribers a monthly fee.
> 
> TiVo can't get out of the box they have put themselves in on how to approach the retail market... so now they are making products for MSO market and then selling them at retail even if the sales are weak and they are losing market share.
> 
> If I could wave a wand I could fix all of this....
> 
> 1. Build a six tuner Premiere with a more powerful CPU and *integrated stream functionality*.
> 
> 2. Bill this as the entertainment hub for the family room and ONLY offer it with a monthly service fee (no lifetime). Get a cut of revenues on other services that are provided through the solution (Amazon VOD, Netflix, Pandora, etc)
> 
> 3. Provide the ability to access this content from as many other devices as possible (Roku, ATV, directly from smart TVs, etc) over ethernet, MoCA and 802.11ac high speed wi-fi.
> 
> 4. Offer your own "premium" box that extends the hub to other rooms with the full experience, including live TV. Charge a flat price for this box that will *drive uptake of your profitable hub that has a monthly fee*.
> 
> See, I just fixed TiVo, now why can't the CEO?


LOL +1


----------



## atmuscarella

Test said:


> Why isn't the cost just hardware? What kind of service fees are you paying for on your tv? None? Because it doesn't provide any service? Now, what kind of service fees are you paying for your cell phone? PLENTY? Because it provides an on going service. Just like the TiVo s1-s4, there needs to be a service to go along with service fees.
> 
> You can roll their service fees into your lump sum to buy a TiVo outright all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you are paying for hardware+service.


If you want to get hung up on terminology that is your business but paying $250 for hardware or $150 for hardware & $100 for lifetime service is the same thing. We are paying $250 either way and that price is either an acceptable price or it isn't.

In the end TiVo will price the mini at $X. If it is hardware & service or hardware only it still will be $X.


----------



## atmuscarella

NYHeel said:


> I don't think it matters how they price it. The only thing that matters is total cost..


I believe that is what I said.



NYHeel said:


> I think they aren't going to sell very many of these is the total cost is much higher than $150. Maybe they can get away with $200. I mean upfront cost plus lifetime.


I don't think they will care how many of these they sell alone (without a new DVR). I would expect them to package them with new 4 tuner DVRs, which is also where I expect them to be discounted.



NYHeel said:


> It really doesn't matter that Tivo is replacing a $600 DVR with a $100-$200 device. What matters is what you need to do to stay competitive and what the market will pay.


That is true and one of the reasons that TiVo sells so few stand alone DVRs the market doesn't know what they pay other vendors for DVRs as some or all of the price is hidden in cost of actual pay TV service.



NYHeel said:


> Did Apple worry about cannabalizing sales of their Macboooks when they made and promoted the iPad at half the price?


 But they sold iPad at a very high profit margin, what people want TiVo to do is sell the mini at a loss not exactly the same thing.


----------



## Test

atmuscarella said:


> If you want to get hung up on terminology that is your business but paying $250 for hardware or $150 for hardware & $100 for lifetime service is the same thing. We are paying $250 either way and that price is either an acceptable price or it isn't.
> 
> In the end TiVo will price the mini at $X. If it is hardware & service or hardware only it still will be $X.


I'm sorry words mean things.


----------



## atmuscarella

Test said:


> I'm sorry words mean things.


Yes and charging someone $250 or $150 & $100 means the same thing.


----------



## jmpage2

atmuscarella said:


> But they sold iPad at a very high profit margin, what people want TiVo to do is sell the mini at a loss not exactly the same thing.


No one is asking them to sell the unit at a loss. You seem to assume that the unit has an extremely high cost.

If TiVo knows anything whatsoever about manufacturing then a box like that should not cost them more than $40-$60 to build. Even if you account for marketing costs, engineering costs, packaging and shipping costs, and retailer overhead it does not need to cost more than $150 at retail.

If the box on the other hand has really high manufacturing and design costs, then that's just a further indicator that TiVo does not know how to make products for the consumer electronics market.


----------



## DaveDFW

atmuscarella said:


> Exactly, plus many people want to replace existing TiVos with minis. Anyone who thought TiVo was going to provide a $100 device to replace a $600 DVR was always dreaming.


But that's where the larger DVR market is headed. No longer is it necessary to have a full DVR sitting at every TV--the new solution is one box that records working in concert with remote nonrecording satellites.

That the new solution provides less revenue for the company is irrelevant--Tivo cannot simply charge a high price for the Mini because it wants to retain revenue. Tivo needs to provide a product which fits the current paradigm at a competitive price or they will not survive.


----------



## davezatz

jmpage2 said:


> See, I just fixed TiVo, now why can't the CEO?


He just cashed about $6 million in stock options and has plenty more available to him. So he may not think there's much fixing needed at this point.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

jmpage2 said:


> No one is asking them to sell the unit at a loss. You seem to assume that the unit has an extremely high cost.
> 
> If TiVo knows anything whatsoever about manufacturing then a box like that should not cost them more than $40-$60 to build. Even if you account for marketing costs, engineering costs, packaging and shipping costs, and retailer overhead it does not need to cost more than $150 at retail.


We are assuming it based on the Stream already being ridiculously priced at $130.


----------



## jmpage2

davezatz said:


> He just cashed about $6 million in stock options and has plenty more available to him. So he may not think there's much fixing needed at this point.


Touche`


----------



## jmpage2

TWinbrook46636 said:


> We are assuming it based on the Stream already being ridiculously priced at $130.


I agree that Stream is over-priced for what it is. Call it a "TiVo Tax"... which I am willing to pay.

You will note however that TiVo was not foolish enough to try to attach a monthly service charge or "lifetime" fee for the Stream.


----------



## atmuscarella

jmpage2 said:


> No one is asking them to sell the unit at a loss. You seem to assume that the unit has an extremely high cost.
> 
> If TiVo knows anything whatsoever about manufacturing then a box like that should not cost them more than $40-$60 to build. Even if you account for marketing costs, engineering costs, packaging and shipping costs, and retailer overhead it does not need to cost more than $150 at retail.
> 
> If the box on the other hand has really high manufacturing and design costs, then that's just a further indicator that TiVo does not know how to make products for the consumer electronics market.


Well given that TiVo's stand alone DVR business has never been profitable and that no other company has ever been able to build and sell stand alone DVRs successfully I tend to think things are a little harder and more costly than you assume.

I have no idea what it has cost Tivo to develop the mini or what it will cost them to manufacture it or cost to support it. I will never buy one (only have one TV) but I want it to be a success in that it enhances Tivo's bottom line. What ever price does that is good by me and offering to reduce the upfront costs with a service fee seems to be what TiVo believes will help sell them so I am good with that.

In any event until we see what the total cost are there isn't much use in getting excited about what it might cost.


----------



## Dan203

jmpage2 said:


> I agree that Stream is over-priced for what it is. Call it a "TiVo Tax"... which I am willing to pay.
> 
> You will note however that TiVo was not foolish enough to try to attach a monthly service charge or "lifetime" fee for the Stream.


The Stream is sort of a niche product so they may have priced it high to recoup the R&D costs from early adopters. Plus it uses a very high end chip which likely makes up the bulk of it's cost. (no other chip I know of can transcode 4 streams to H.264 at faster then real time, not even a $1000 8 core Intel CPU)

The mini is like an alternative to having a second TiVo. The internal hardware is likely similar to a regular TiVo just without the HDD and tuners, so it's likely cheap to build. However it's also going to cut into their users a bit so they could be charging a service fee to help offset that.

Dan


----------



## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> A theoretical Roku with a "real" full remote, native mpeg2 playback plus license, a licensed EPG, and MoCA would likely push closer to $150. Just sayin', a price equal to a Roku isn't likely for practical reasons.


Fine. I would easily pay a TOTAL of $150 for such a device that works with the TiVo... Maybe even $175.


----------



## crxssi

aristoBrat said:


> If you're using the Mini to watch live TV, wouldn't it be handy to know what's actually on the different channels?


When you watch recorded video from the Mini, you are watching something not on the Mini. When you look through the menus at what is recorded you are looking at something that is not on the Mini....

I guess it is semantics, but the guide data certainly does not have to reside on the Mini to see it, any more that anything else needs to reside on it.


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> But that's where the larger DVR market is headed. No longer is it necessary to have a full DVR sitting at every TV--the new solution is one box that records working in concert with remote nonrecording satellites.
> 
> That the new solution provides less revenue for the company is irrelevant--Tivo cannot simply charge a high price for the Mini because it wants to retain revenue. Tivo needs to provide a product which fits the current paradigm at a competitive price or they will not survive.


Well in my area Time Warners whole home system costs $37/mo for a dual tuner DVR and 1 STB for one more TV or $57/mo to get 4 tuners via 2 whole home DVRs (normal DVRs are $22.50 each). Not sure how to directly compare that with Tivo because of the up front costs but even if a Premiere 4 & mini cost $1000 you are a head in less than 2 years.


----------



## crxssi

mr_smits said:


> Since the Mini will replace a traditional Tivo box and cablecard, I expect it to either cost something or have a recurring fee.


And this is the main rift.

Many of us (myself included) do not want a Mini to replace a Premiere. We want one to augment a Premiere. We are not paying for a cable card fee nor outlet fee nor Premiere fees nor Premiere box. We just want to view stuff in a less used room.

We have and had no intention of spending many hundreds of dollars for another Premiere and the Mini is some bonus to avert that. We were OK doing without. And for us, if the Mini box is expensive, it is a no-go and will likely continue to do without. If it were cheap and without fees, sure- I will slap one in several places just for the hell of it. But that sounds like it is not going to happen. Not only is it too expensive, you can only have two of the devices. And they only work with 4 tuner units. And the 4 tuner units have no OTA either.

There are two totally different markets available. And this model they are pushing sounds like it is totally ignoring one of those markets. It is too bad. Perhaps they should have make a "Micro" or "Mini-Lite", instead of "Mini", for the rest of us...


----------



## sbiller

crxssi said:


> And this is the main rift.
> 
> Many of us (myself included) do not want a Mini to replace a Premiere. We want one to augment a Premiere. We are not paying for a cable card fee nor outlet fee nor Premiere fees nor Premiere box. We just want to view stuff in a less used room.
> 
> We have and had no intention of spending many hundreds of dollars for another Premiere and the Mini is some bonus to avert that. We were OK doing without. And for us, if the Mini box is expensive, it is a no-go and will likely continue to do without. If it were cheap and without fees, sure- I will slap one in several places just for the hell of it. But that sounds like it is not going to happen. Not only is it too expensive, you can only have two of the devices. And they only work with 4 tuner units. And the 4 tuner units have no OTA either.
> 
> There are two totally different markets available. And this model they are pushing sounds like it is totally ignoring one of those markets. It is too bad. Perhaps they should have make a "Micro" or "Mini-Lite", instead of "Mini", for the rest of us...


The main point of the TiVo Whole Home experience is to pair a gateway device (Premiere 4 or Premiere XL4) with one or two Mini boxes to provide a seamless whole home experience on up to three televisions at a price point that competes effectively with premium whole home experiences being deployed by their competitors (e.g, DIRECTV, Verizon, AT&T, TWC, etc). Their primary target, IMHO, is new customers to TiVo. *Getting current users to upgrade and/or swap out multiple Premiere boxes with one Premiere and a few Mini's is not a business goal*. Their pricing strategy will likely offer bundles that include a gateway box with one or two Mini's and possibly a Stream at a total price point (hardware + service) that is aligned with a premium experience but competes effectively at retail when all costs are considered.


----------



## moyekj

Yes, if Mini with lifetime is more than 50% of cost of 2 tuner unit with lifetime then I would just rather buy the 2 tuner unit. CableCard is only $2/month here, TA is free, and no "additional outlet" fees, and if you buy it purely for MRS purposes then you don't even need to stick a CableCard in it so you can avoid monthly fees completely. 1 interesting comment which may change that dynamic a little is if the Mini running HDUI is indeed much more responsive than tuner units as has been reported.


----------



## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> The Stream is sort of a niche product so they may have priced it high to recoup the R&D costs from early adopters. Plus it uses a very high end chip which likely makes up the bulk of it's cost. (no other chip I know of can transcode 4 streams to H.264 at faster then real time, not even a $1000 8 core Intel CPU)
> 
> The mini is like an alternative to having a second TiVo. The internal hardware is likely similar to a regular TiVo just without the HDD and tuners, so it's likely cheap to build. However it's also going to cut into their users a bit so they could be charging a service fee to help offset that.
> 
> Dan


I really doubt that there are hordes of people who are either going to buy a Mini instead of another full TiVo, or who are going to dump 2nd, 3rd TiVos with a Mini.

For one thing the # of users with multiple TiVos is I'm sure very small.

The Mini is positioned perfectly as a viable option for NEW subscribers who would never consider getting multiple TiVos but who want a whole home solution... however, if TiVo charges a high price for them, then even those customers are highly likely to go with something else. It's not helping TiVo that their "whole home" solution requires the purchase of a more expensive 4-tuner DVR as well as the Mini hijacking full time a tuner... or, that the "solution" is capped at two Minis. That's a joke.

I know that I have done two surveys on the Mini and both of them asked the question about pricing as well as the attractiveness of a set price for the unit which was just north or just south of $200. I don't recall that either survey discussed service fees, so I imagine TiVo had their mind already made up about that aspect of pricing.


----------



## dianebrat

crxssi said:


> Fine. I would easily pay a TOTAL of $150 for such a device that works with the TiVo... Maybe even $175.


I'd be up to $200 for a mini as long as there were no reoccurring fees, if hardware and lifetime for it were $200, I'd grouse, but buy.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

crxssi said:


> Fine. I would easily pay a TOTAL of $150 for such a device that works with the TiVo... Maybe even $175.


I'm with you on that. At $150 I buy it with a smile. At $200 I MIGHT buy it... with a scowl. Anything over that, forget it.


----------



## MichaelK

crxssi said:


> The Stream does much less and has no remote. Even so, as has been said, Roku can put out a 1080P HD set-top streaming device with motion control remote, wifi, ethernet, micro SD slot, bluetooth, and usb for under $100 with no "fees", so why can't TiVo?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Roku-XS-1080p...3?ie=UTF8&qid=1357707462&sr=8-3&keywords=roku
> 
> *ATTENTION TiVo: if you can't figure out how to make something people want and without fees and stupid artificial limitations, then give up on selling additional hardware and just add streaming support for THIRD PARTY DEVICES LIKE THE ROKU.*


Roku, xbox, wii u, googletv, bluray players, smart tv's -- put it on them all and watch the 4 tuner DVR's sell like hot cakes. Even charge me for the app on the wii U, googletv, and xbox (not sure if Roku or smart tv's have app stores but if they do feel free to charge a reasonable one time fee there too..)


----------



## MichaelK

aaronwt said:


> ...
> I plan to get a Mini the first day they are available at BestBuy.
> 
> Of course it probably won't be out until June.


of what year? J/K


----------



## Dan203

I'm betting it's closer to $300 with lifetime. Pure speculation on my part but my guess is it will be $99 for the box and $4.99/mo or $199 for lifetime. You'll probably be able to get the box at Amazon for $80 after a few months, but other then that I wouldn't expect it to go much lower until they have refurbs to offer.

You have to compare it to the alternative. $300 for a Mini, with no CableCARD or outlet fee, or $550 for a full blown TiVo. ($150 + $400 lifetime)

I agree that requiring a 4 tuner TiVo and having it permanently hijack the tuner for live TV is a crappy requirement, but as others have pointed out these will most likely be marketed to new users looking for a whole house solution.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> Roku, xbox, wii u, googletv, bluray players, smart tv's -- put it on them all and watch the 4 tuner DVR's sell like hot cakes. Even charge me for the app on the wii U, googletv, and xbox (not sure if Roku or smart tv's have app stores but if they do feel free to charge a reasonable one time fee there too..)


Those devices are all limited to H.264 playback, which means for them to work with a TiVo you'd need a Stream. So that's $129 right there, in addition to the cost of the Roku, Wii U, etc...

Dan


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting it's closer to $300 with lifetime. Pure speculation on my part but my guess is it will be $99 for the box and $4.99/mo or $199 for lifetime. You'll probably be able to get the box at Amazon for $80 after a few months, but other then that I wouldn't expect it to go much lower until they have refurbs to offer.
> 
> You have to compare it to the alternative. $300 for a Mini, with no CableCARD or outlet fee, or $550 for a full blown TiVo. ($150 + $400 lifetime)
> 
> I agree that requiring a 4 tuner TiVo and having it permanently hijack the tuner for live TV is a crappy requirement, but as others have pointed out these will most likely be marketed to new users looking for a whole house solution.
> 
> Dan


 You can often find $50 2 tuner units these days, so it's more like $450 with lifetime, so if Mini + lifetime is >= $300 the savings is not so compelling and you get a streaming client without the 4 tuner host BS requirement and additional tuners without stealing any.

If we could just reverse engineer MRS we could roll our own clients for PCs and forget about the Mini completely.


----------



## Dan203

That's still a $150 difference. Honestly if the Mini is less then $250 with lifetime I'll be shocked. I'll be happy to see it, but I'll be shocked none the less.

Dan


----------



## MichaelK

mr_smits said:


> Tivo is a business, and every business has to make enough money to survive and thrive. That means, the Mini must either be priced at a point where Tivo makes money from it despite the result that people will retire older Tivo boxes that may still be generating revenue (monthly fees). The Mini will cannibalize the monthly fees from occasional use Tivos *and* from purchased box fees. So they have to make their money elsewhere.


you dont have to make money on any one product so long as you make money as a whole. Tivo might "make money" on their current boxes (including upfront plus service) if you just are adding the cost of the hardware up (and MAYBE a little R&D) but they loss money as a company. Ask walmart if they "make money" on every item in their ads or ask exxon if their convenience stores make money on all the items they stock- yet walmart and exxon make piles of money.

Tivo's current business plan doesn't make them money, why continue? Why not try to do something different that might actually change things to make it so you can make money? Currently they only thing keeping them close to break even is patents- their patents expire in a few short years- they're trying to make themselves ubiquitous in the mean time. Using the mini to make the devices more ubiquitous and better than everyone else isn't necessarily a dumb business plan - even if they lose a few bucks on each device.

Anyway- the bottom line is generally what many have said- what is that total cost going to be? For many it doesn't matter what they call the 2 different fees as long as the total is "OK". BUT I think Tivo has learned over the years that there is a certain amount of confusion from the general public with the buy a box and then pay a fee model they use.

My own groan from the pricing thing is that I personally feel the total price is bound to be higher if they are going to have 2 different part of their fees and risk alienating people with a "confusing" pricing model. If the total box was going to be $49 why would you spend the time to charge $25 and $25. (not that I ever expected the box to be $49 but exaggerating to explain my point.).

I think Dave Zatz's perception that much of the pricing issue is related to makign it "high enough" to appease MSO's makes a lot of sense.


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> That's still a $150 difference. Honestly if the Mini is less then $250 with lifetime I'll be shocked. I'll be happy to see it, but I'll be shocked none the less.
> 
> Dan


 Yes but you get a fully functional extra TiVo + 2 tuners for $150 more. I would go for that instead of a Mini for that price difference.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> You have to compare it to the alternative. $300 for a Mini, with no CableCARD or outlet fee, or $550 for a full blown TiVo. ($150 + $400 lifetime)


I could also buy neither and just keep using the $6/mo STB that's already in use, thus not wait 4 years for it to start paying for itself.

Being that these are targetted at secondary and tertiary TVs, it's a fine line they're walking. I get that $300 is just a guess, but man that'd be DOA.


----------



## MichaelK

jmpage2 said:


> T...
> 
> The other irritation is that they also said maximum of two Minis per Premiere. Why should there be a limitation like that if you only want to use the Mini to watch recordings?
> ....


is it possible that they are concerned about trying to run too many streams through the drive (or some IO bottleneck)? Jus a WAG- that's why i ask.

A 4 tuner is already recording 4 and playing back 1, perhaps receiving another so it could be at 6 streams. Toss in 2 mini's and you are at 8. Maybe they had a concern that 9 would be pushing I/O? Perhaps the particular architecture of the years old series 4 has bottlenecks that newer whole home dvr's dont?


----------



## Dan203

moyekj said:


> Yes but you get a fully functional extra TiVo + 2 tuners for $150 more. I would go for that instead of a Mini for that price difference.


Plus a minimum $2.50/mo fee for CableCARD and possibly more if your cable co charges an "outlet fee".

Dan


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> Plus a minimum $2.50/mo fee for CableCARD and possibly more if your cable co charges an "outlet fee".
> 
> Dan


 $2/month for me and no other charges (TA is free and no "additional outlet" charges here).


----------



## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> is it possible that they are concerned about trying to run too many streams through the drive (or some IO bottleneck)? Jus a WAG- that's why i ask.
> 
> A 4 tuner is already recording 4 and playing back 1, perhaps receiving another so it could be at 6 streams. Toss in 2 mini's and you are at 8. Maybe they had a concern that 9 would be pushing I/O? Perhaps the particular architecture of the years old series 4 has bottlenecks that newer whole home dvr's dont?


A single TiVo is capable of streaming up to 3 shows at a time. (if you have multiple TiVos and/or a TiVo Stream that is the hard limit)

I think their main concern with the Minis is limiting the host TiVo to less then 2 tuners for recording. I think their scheduling logic has evolved over the years to assume a minimum of 2 tuners. If they allowed 3 Minis to be connected to a single host TiVo, and they were all setup for live TV viewing, then that would limit the host TiVo to just one tuner for recording which might cause problem. I bet that once the dynamic tuner allocation gets figured out that restriction will go away.

Dan


----------



## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> The Stream is sort of a niche product so they may have priced it high to recoup the R&D costs from early adopters. Plus it uses a very high end chip which likely makes up the bulk of it's cost. (no other chip I know of can transcode 4 streams to H.264 at faster then real time, not even a $1000 8 core Intel CPU)
> Dan


A 8 core Intel CPU will happily transcode 4 streams to H.264 at faster than realtime, at least if you limit it to the same quality as what an embedded solution can do. You just need to limit the motion search, turn off B-frames and maybe use CAVLC instead of CABAC. Hell, it is completely legal to have an H.264 stream with with only uncompressed I-frames, which you can encode on any modern processor as fast as you can stream the source out of memory, the implementation is actually only ~50 lines long.

More to the point, the IP blocks necessary to do h.264 encoding are relatively small and cheap, nothing on the order of modern high end ARM core or mobile GPU.


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> Those devices are all limited to H.264 playback, which means for them to work with a TiVo you'd need a Stream. So that's $129 right there, in addition to the cost of the Roku, Wii U, etc...


Good point


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> That's still a $150 difference. Honestly if the Mini is less then $250 with lifetime I'll be shocked. I'll be happy to see it, but I'll be shocked none the less.


Yeah, but for that $150, you are getting another whole "real" TiVo that can record, can be used stand-alone, can replace your main one if it fails, etc.


----------



## crxssi

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I could also buy neither and just keep using the $6/mo STB that's already in use, thus not wait 4 years for it to start paying for itself.


And watch only "live" TV? I would rather never watch anything again..... really.


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> Plus a minimum $2.50/mo fee for CableCARD and possibly more if your cable co charges an "outlet fee".


No, because you are assuming there is already a cable box/connection there. Some people use that other TV with OTA only. Or with a Roku. Or just a Wii or gaming box. Or, like me, with an analog connection to my main TiVo and an IR extender (which sucks, but does work).


----------



## moedaman

Dan203 said:


> Plus a minimum $2.50/mo fee for CableCARD and possibly more if your cable co charges an "outlet fee".
> 
> Dan


Like I've mentioned before. There is no need to install a cable card in that 2nd unit, especially if you already have a 4-tuner model. Connect an antenna to it and stream between the two Tivo's. Then connect a PC with Tivo Desktop installed to a third set and there's your WHDVR using 6 tuners instead of 4. The pc doesn't even have to a permanently attached to the set, just connect a laptop when you get the urge. And down the road, I'm sure it will be a lot easier to sell 2-tuner Tivo w/lifetime than it would be a Mini w/lifetime.

See there are two ways to look at this. The glass half-full approach or the glass half-empty approach. If Tivo is worried about losing income from dvr's due to people dumping them because they're buying Mini's, than they're looking at this as "half-empty". As far as I know it's pretty tough to grow if you approach your business and new products in a negative manner.


----------



## innocentfreak

lgerbarg said:


> A 8 core Intel CPU will happily transcode 4 streams to H.264 at faster than realtime, at least if you limit it to the same quality as what an embedded solution can do. You just need to limit the motion search, turn off B-frames and maybe use CAVLC instead of CABAC. Hell, it is completely legal to have an H.264 stream with with only uncompressed I-frames, which you can encode on any modern processor as fast as you can stream the source out of memory, the implementation is actually only ~50 lines long.
> 
> More to the point, the IP blocks necessary to do h.264 encoding are relatively small and cheap, nothing on the order of modern high end ARM core or mobile GPU.


IIRC the stream can do four one hour shows much faster than real time. I want to say it was around 20 minutes for all four.

I thought someone had done a time trial and posted the results, but I can't find it now.

What 8 core Intel processor can you get for $129.99?


----------



## Dan203

moedaman said:


> Like I've mentioned before. There is no need to install a cable card in that 2nd unit, especially if you already have a 4-tuner model. Connect an antenna to it and stream between the two Tivo's. Then connect a PC with Tivo Desktop installed to a third set and there's your WHDVR using 6 tuners instead of 4. The pc doesn't even have to a permanently attached to the set, just connect a laptop when you get the urge. And down the road, I'm sure it will be a lot easier to sell 2-tuner Tivo w/lifetime than it would be a Mini w/lifetime.
> 
> See there are two ways to look at this. The glass half-full approach or the glass half-empty approach. If Tivo is worried about losing income from dvr's due to people dumping them because they're buying Mini's, than they're looking at this as "half-empty". As far as I know it's pretty tough to grow if you approach your business and new products in a negative manner.


To get the same functionality as a Mini, which includes the abilityntonwatch live TV, then you do need to install a CableCARD. And if you want to get the benifit of having a "real TiVo" then you most certainly do.

I know there are a few users that are OTA only, but the vast majority of users who would buy a Mini will be cable users. In fact the vast majority of TiVo users in general are cable users.

To eac their own though. If you think spending an extra $150-200 on a "real TiVo" is a better deal then go for it. But I seriously doubt TiVo is taking that into account when deciding on the price.

Like I said if it's under $250 with lifetime I'll be shocked. I'll be pleasntly shocked, but shocked none the less.

Dan


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> To get the same functionality as a Mini, which includes the abilityntonwatch live TV, then you do need to install a CableCARD. And if you want to get the benifit of having a "real TiVo" then you most certainly do.


That brings up an interesting point, if as many believe the mini is basically a premiere without tuners and a hard drive, is there any reason that a basic dual tuner Premiere couldn't function like a mini and use a tuner from a Premiere 4? If it could then you could have a whole home system with more tuners but only need one cable card (assuming OTA worked for the dual tuner unit). Actually is there any reason one cable card couldn't provide data for tuners in 2 DVRs?



Dan203 said:


> I know there are a few users that are OTA only, but the vast majority of users who would buy a Mini will be cable users. In fact the vast majority of TiVo users in general are cable users.
> 
> To eac their own though. If you think spending an extra $150-200 on a "real TiVo" is a better deal then go for it. But I seriously doubt TiVo is taking that into account when deciding on the price.
> 
> Like I said if it's under $250 with lifetime I'll be shocked. I'll be pleasntly shocked, but shocked none the less.
> 
> Dan


My guess has been $250 with lifetime. But I expect there will be packages deals offered from there.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Just for comparison,
The Moxi Mate was priced at $299 standalone, and $199 when purchased with a Moxi DVR.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110203112646/http://www.moxi.com/us/


----------



## NotNowChief

I'd be comfortable at about 200 for the product and PLS, that's my limit. Anything over that, NO THANK YOU. 

I love my TiVo, but I just feel like the only thing they can do REALLY well is screw up new products.


----------



## slowbiscuit

That's a good point about the Moxi Mate, and given the stranglehold Tivo has on the third-party market now there is little incentive for them to price it less than $200 all-in. They know that most of the loyal users here will not buy one at a price of $200 or more, but I think they'll bundle it in with the XL4s and be satisfied with whatever sales they get with that.

Face it folks, retail is the bottom end of their focus. What they care about now is keeping the MSOs and the content industry happy, and if that means pricing the Mini so that it doesn't compete too hard against cable, that's all good.

I think a lot of us would like to see a Tivo 'extender' app on Roku, PS3, Xbox or whatever, there's really no need for a Mini at all (if the other devices can handle mpeg2, like PS3, Xbox etc.). But Tivo doesn't see it that way, and doing apps that can handle the protected content stream on all these other devices could be too costly or problematic for them. Plus we know it would take them forever to deliver apps on multiple platforms anyway.


----------



## mulscully

I would buy a stream in a heartbeat if it could also stream to an xbox, Roku, GoogleTV or Apple TV. But just to be able to stream to my ipad or iphone? I don't watch enough on those devices to justify it...


----------



## lgerbarg

innocentfreak said:


> IIRC the stream can do four one hour shows much faster than real time. I want to say it was around 20 minutes for all four.
> 
> I thought someone had done a time trial and posted the results, but I can't find it now.
> 
> What 8 core Intel processor can you get for $129.99?


Maybe I wasn't clear about the intent of my post, it was not to claim you could get an 8 core x86 CPU cheaply, it was that the previous post was comparing Apples to Oranges twice.

1) The assertion that h.264 encoding of 1 device is equivalent to h.264 encoding of another device. Very few consumer h.264 encoders for x86 will run as fast a s a TiVo stream, because most of them do not expose the options necessary to do so, instead they simply do higher quality encodes. For example, there is a technique where you do deep analysis of macroblock motion across successive b-frames that results in an incredible amount of high quality compression on things with large swathes of constant colors and smooth motion (animation), but takes a lot of CPU and gigabytes of ram. Not only does the stream exclude that sort of optimization, it would make no sense for it to do since except when it is sideloading since everything it generates is ephemeral; it simply doesn't matter if the h.264 it sends over with is 20% larger than it could be so long as it is small enough to fit comfortable over wifi. There are tons of those sorts of optimizations, and consumer grade decoders do not let people control them. Play with something like x264 and choose every option to optimize for speed over quality and you will easily be able to encode 4 streams in real time on modern consumer CPUs once the compression efficiency drops down to what the TiVo stream is using.

2) That assertion that 4 hardware encoders is a high end piece of silicon. It simply is not. It might be somewhat specialized (in that very few people need it), but it doesn't require a lot of die space (which is what determines cost of a chip, at least in commoditized fields like video). 4 h.264 encoders takes less die space than a single mobile GPU or CPU core. Something like a Tegra 3 ships with 5 CPUs, 12 GPUs, a ton of video encode and decode hardware, and sells for less than ~$25 in bulk (a LOT less depending on how big your contract is). A chip with 1 CPU, no GPUs, and slightly more encode hardware is much smaller, and thus cheaper. For reference, a single chip h.264 encoder chip cost ~$5 4 years ago, which is the last time I had to price something like that.


----------



## txporter

lgerbarg said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear about the intent of my post, it was not to claim you could get an 8 core x86 CPU cheaply, it was that the previous post was comparing Apples to Oranges twice.
> 
> 1) The assertion that h.264 encoding of 1 device is equivalent to h.264 encoding of another device. Very few consumer h.264 encoders for x86 will run as fast a s a TiVo stream, because most of them do not expose the options necessary to do so, instead they simply do higher quality encodes. For example, there is a technique where you do deep analysis of macroblock motion across successive b-frames that results in an incredible amount of high quality compression on things with large swathes of constant colors and smooth motion (animation), but takes a lot of CPU and gigabytes of ram. Not only does the stream exclude that sort of optimization, it would make no sense for it to do since except when it is sideloading since everything it generates is ephemeral; it simply doesn't matter if the h.264 it sends over with is 20% larger than it could be so long as it is small enough to fit comfortable over wifi. There are tons of those sorts of optimizations, and consumer grade decoders do not let people control them. Play with something like x264 and choose every option to optimize for speed over quality and you will easily be able to encode 4 streams in real time on modern consumer CPUs once the compression efficiency drops down to what the TiVo stream is using.
> 
> 2) That assertion that 4 hardware encoders is a high end piece of silicon. It simply is not. It might be somewhat specialized (in that very few people need it), but it doesn't require a lot of die space (which is what determines cost of a chip, at least in commoditized fields like video). 4 h.264 encoders takes less die space than a single mobile GPU or CPU core. Something like a Tegra 3 ships with 5 CPUs, 12 GPUs, a ton of video encode and decode hardware, and sells for less than ~$25 in bulk (a LOT less depending on how big your contract is). A chip with 1 CPU, no GPUs, and slightly more encode hardware is much smaller, and thus cheaper. For reference, a single chip h.264 encoder chip cost ~$5 4 years ago, which is the last time I had to price something like that.


I agree that comparing a PC transcode to a detected hardware encoder is apples-to-oranges. But also saying that it is because of encoding options is also not true. There is just so much more parallelism built into the detected hardware encoders than what you see in a standard microprocessor that is built to do basically whatever folks can dream up. I have used x264 for a few years now for my transcodes (albeit in conjection with avisynth), but I doubt I could detune it enough to get greater than realtime transcodes on 4 streams simultaneously. I run on a i7-2600K, which isn't the fastest thing out there but is plenty fast.

For what it's worth, the Tivo Stream uses a Zenverge ZN200 for transcoding.

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-releases/electro-mechanical/4395520/Zenverge-Content-Networking-IC-Enables-TiVo-Stream-to-Revolutionize-Multiroom-DVRs
http://www.zenverge.com/pro-media-processors_zn200.html

I wasn't able to quickly find out the cost of the chip, but I would also be surprised if it was much more than ~$25/unit.


----------



## moedaman

CoxInPHX said:


> Just for comparison,
> The Moxi Mate was priced at $299 standalone, and $199 when purchased with a Moxi DVR.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20110203112646/http://www.moxi.com/us/


Well Shaw of Canada is selling the 6-tuner successor of the Moxi DVR for C$399 and the client boxes for C$99 each. 
https://shaw.ca/Secure/gateway/form.aspx

Too bad Arris has decided not to sell these at retail in the US. Even at unsubsidized pricing (assuming Shaw is subsidizing them), it would offer some serious competition to Tivo.


----------



## Dan203

I realize that comparing an x86 pricessor to the SOC in the Stream was not the best analogy, but it's the easiest for most people to understand. 

The Stream uses the Zenverge ZN200 SOC. It's a brand new chip that is very powerful (it doesn't just cripple the H.264 encoding specs to increase speed). And while it may not be very big in wafer size, that does not necessarily dictate it's cost. Because it's brand new, highly specialized and from a small company it likely has a lot of R&D costs built into the price. Not to mention the R&D on TiVos end for a product that's probably only going to have sales totalling in the low 5 figures (units not dollars). 

Now the reason I mention that is because by contrast the Mini will likely use the same, or similar, internal hardware as the Premiere but without the tuners or HDD. The chips used in the Premiere are basically comodities and are likely a lot cheaper then the SOC used in the Stream. So the cost of the Mini hardware is likely lower. So the price of the Mini will likely be based much more on business decisions then actual production costs. The Stream and the Mini, while similar in functionality, are very different products from a business perspective so comparing their prices is apples and oranges as well. 

Dan


----------



## lgerbarg

txporter said:


> I agree that comparing a PC transcode to a detected hardware encoder is apples-to-oranges. But also saying that it is because of encoding options is also not true. There is just so much more parallelism built into the detected hardware encoders than what you see in a standard microprocessor that is built to do basically whatever folks can dream up. I have used x264 for a few years now for my transcodes (albeit in conjection with avisynth), but I doubt I could detune it enough to get greater than realtime transcodes on 4 streams simultaneously. I run on a i7-2600K, which isn't the fastest thing out there but is plenty fast.
> 
> For what it's worth, the Tivo Stream uses a Zenverge ZN200 for transcoding.
> 
> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-releases/electro-mechanical/4395520/Zenverge-Content-Networking-IC-Enables-TiVo-Stream-to-Revolutionize-Multiroom-DVRs
> http://www.zenverge.com/pro-media-processors_zn200.html
> 
> I wasn't able to quickly find out the cost of the chip, but I would also be surprised if it was much more than ~$25/unit.


Hardware can be more parallel than software, but that doesn't mean moving something to hardware magically makes it possible. h.264 encoding has a number of serial data dependency bottlenecks (entropy coding in particular), and the places where it is easily parallelizable don't necessarily buy you much once they are masked by those bottlenecks. That is a large part of the reason why GPU based encoders have not taken off.



Dan203 said:


> I realize that comparing an x86 pricessor to the SOC in the Stream was not the best analogy, but it's the easiest for most people to understand.
> 
> The Stream uses the Zenverge ZN200 SOC. It's a brand new chip that is very powerful (it doesn't just cripple the H.264 encoding specs to increase speed). And while it may not be very big in wafer size, that does not necessarily dictate it's cost. Because it's brand new, highly specialized and from a small company it likely has a lot of R&D costs built into the price. Not to mention the R&D on TiVos end for a product that's probably only going to have sales totalling in the low 5 figures (units not dollars).
> 
> Now the reason I mention that is because by contrast the Mini will likely use the same, or similar, internal hardware as the Premiere but without the tuners or HDD. The chips used in the Premiere are basically comodities and are likely a lot cheaper then the SOC used in the Stream. So the cost of the Mini hardware is likely lower. So the price of the Mini will likely be based much more on business decisions then actual production costs. The Stream and the Mini, while similar in functionality, are very different products from a business perspective so comparing their prices is apples and oranges as well.
> 
> Dan


I would also be astounded if the Zenverge cost anywhere close to $25. I can buy a 4 channel h.264 encoder from Intersil right now for $28 with a MOQ of 40 units from AVNet. Given how part costs scale it is probably less than half that in production quantities (if I remember to ask the next time I talk with my sales guy I'll see if I can get a volume quote). Maybe the Zenverge chip bas better compression efficiency, but from TiVos perspective that actually wouldn't be worth spending more money on. Like I said, most of the use of the of the TiVo stream is ephemeral video where increasing the compression efficiency doesn't matter, so buying a more expensive chip to do that would be silly. Oddly enough quality simply isn't that big a deal (everything is "close enough" for most consumers), whereas price is almost everything in consumer electronics.

You are correct that the chips in the TiVo mini are probably higher production volume parts, but all of these things are pretty cheap. The cost of the stream is almost certainly due to NREs such tooling being amortized over a product that is anticipated to be lower volume, not due to the actual BOM cost.


----------



## rainwater

slowbiscuit said:


> They know that most of the loyal users here will not buy one at a price of $200 or more, but I think they'll bundle it in with the XL4s and be satisfied with whatever sales they get with that.


Exactly. This is what most people complaining about the price do not understand. TiVo isn't trying to sell these to existing customers. They are trying to create a whole home bundle they can sell to MSOs. The standalone market for these is probably relatively small so there's no way they are going to sell these dirt cheap as stand alone devices. There is zero incentive for them to do so.


----------



## mr_smits

rainwater said:


> The standalone market for these is probably relatively small so there's no way they are going to sell these dirt cheap as stand alone devices. There is zero incentive for them to do so.


The standalone market is all of their existing (retail) customers. That's an incentive.


----------



## jmpage2

rainwater said:


> Exactly. This is what most people complaining about the price do not understand. TiVo isn't trying to sell these to existing customers. They are trying to create a whole home bundle they can sell to MSOs. The standalone market for these is probably relatively small so there's no way they are going to sell these dirt cheap as stand alone devices. There is zero incentive for them to do so.


Well of course there is an incentive, the incentive is to maintain their customer base, which is shrinking. I don't think TiVo has had a quarter with a net add in subscribers in over 3-4 years now.

You would think that this is an easy wedge item to keep people in the fold who might be looking to bail to lower cost whole-home DVR solutions, but apparently they don't see things that way.


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> the Mini will likely use the same, or similar, internal hardware as the Premiere but without the tuners or HDD.


Not to nit pick, but I thought I read the Mini has a hard drive (or flash drive, RAM, some type of memory) to store the menu/os?


----------



## jmpage2

mr_smits said:


> Not to nit pick, but I thought I read the Mini has a hard drive (or flash drive, RAM, some type of memory) to store the menu/os?


Engadget reported that it has a 2GB Flash buffer that is used for the OS and for cache.

2GB of flash in large quantities is about $2-$3 at most.

If I were to hazard a guess I would say that the most expensive component in the Mini is probably the MoCA hardware... but even with that it's hard to see this thing costing TiVo more than $50 to manufacture.


----------



## Dan203

I bought a 2GB SSD for my nieces kid camera at xmas and it was $4, so I'm betting surface mount chips are <$1

Dan


----------



## crxssi

mulscully said:


> I would buy a stream in a heartbeat if it could also stream to an xbox, Roku, GoogleTV or Apple TV. .


+1000 (just add XBMC to your list, which I think is at least as important, if not more so, than GoogleTV and Apple TV.)


----------



## davezatz

jmpage2 said:


> Engadget reported that it has a 2GB Flash buffer that is used for the OS and for cache.


No, Zatz reported that.  And the dude assured me we were talking storage versus memory. But it looks like Ben and I were both briefed by the B team (hence the pricing slip with no handler present?). Verge and Megazone may have gotten A. Not sure who CNET spoke with. Hopefully mz writes something up.


----------



## jmpage2

davezatz said:


> No, Zatz reported that.  And the dude assured me we were talking storage versus memory. But it looks like Ben and I were both briefed by the B team (hence the pricing slip with no handler present?). Verge and Megazone may have gotten A. Not sure who CNET spoke with. Hopefully mz writes something up.


Credit where credit is due Dave.

I was not aware of a pricing slip up or Megazone or Verge articles from CES, do you have any more info?


----------



## davezatz

jmpage2 said:


> I was not aware of a pricing slip up or Megazone or Verge articles from CES, do you have any more info?


The official PR line seemed to be they're still working on pricing and that it would represent a cost savings over a full fledged DVR. Ben may not have even processed what was said on the video, because he didn't point out the subscription fee or Lifetime option and reinforced the PR spiel which I was also planning to convey... until I saw his video. I assume they didn't intend to discuss it publicly in this level of detail several months out.

I don't think Megazone or Verge have posted yet, but I ran into Nilay and Chris Ziegler in the booth (along with some others) and MZ told me he had an appointment set up.


----------



## jmpage2

Thanks for the added info. It seems like this is going to be a "late" spring release at best, and it's a huge disappointment that even after these delays it will not have dynamic tuner allocation at launch. Hopefully TiVo realizes this and prices accordingly.


----------



## rainwater

mr_smits said:


> The standalone market is all of their existing (retail) customers. That's an incentive.


Very few of those have XL4 models already which is a requirement. TiVo has made it clear the last few years that the MSO market is their main focus not the SA market. Again, they obviously are going to try to sell these as a bundle so new users even in the SA market will be the focus.


----------



## socrplyr

jmpage2 said:


> 2GB Flash buffer


Should be drive, not buffer. Buffer typically refers not currently used information in a stream of data. Any buffers for this type of device type will be DRAM (and the Mini will probably have 256MB-1GB of it in addition to the flash).



Dan203 said:


> I bought a 2GB SSD for my nieces kid camera at xmas and it was $4, so I'm betting surface mount chips are <$1


That wasn't an SSD for the camera, it was basically just flash chips on a stick (flash card, probably an SD card). SSD would be a drive. There are other electronics needed to read a flash chip. Now they may be build into the SoC used by Tivo, but the flash cards that you purchase for a camera are some of the cheapest and lowest quality available. That said the chips/electronics used by Tivo are probably in the $1 range like you said, but could be up to $2/$3.

For all adding up the prices of parts, remember that cost for this type of product would probably have to be 4 or more times the sum total of the parts. There are engineering costs, licensing costs, packaging costs, marketing costs, retail cuts, etc. Then whatever is left is "profit." Tivo isn't particularly high volume, so to actually make a decent return on investment the per unit profit needs to be high.


----------



## jmpage2

You are over thinking this. My company builds lots of boxes that use a simple CF card as a "hard drive" for the purposes of running Linux and using the storage space for SWAP, etc.... this is for running embedded telecomm appliances that have to work 24/7 365 days a year. Some of these have been in operation now for five years and they are still working fine, even with a cheap off-the-shelf CF card and card reader built into the motherboard.

It's highly likely that all TiVo is doing is using cheap surface mounted chips for this purpose.


----------



## mr_smits

rainwater said:


> Very few of those have XL4 models already which is a requirement. TiVo has made it clear the last few years that the MSO market is their main focus not the SA market. Again, they obviously are going to try to sell these as a bundle so new users even in the SA market will be the focus.


I understand the MSO market is their main focus. However, unless they plan to shut down retail market they need to make money on it now and in the future.

As an existing customer with 3 Tivos (2 Premieres and 1 HD; all 2 tuners), I will upgrade if it makes financial sense to do so (save on cablecards, electrical power) and it simplifies my daily life (not managing multiple box season passes, transferring/streaming shows between boxes, remembering which reecording is on which box, etc). I'll bite if it makes sense.


----------



## L David Matheny

mr_smits said:


> I understand the MSO market is their main focus. However, unless they plan to shut down retail market they need to make money on it now and in the future.


If TiVo abandons the OTA retail market they are fools, because (1) that market is growing and (2) that would make them only a captive supplier of component boxes at pretty much whatever price the cable companies dictate.


----------



## rainwater

L David Matheny said:


> If TiVo abandons the OTA retail market they are fools, because (1) that market is growing


There's very little evidence to say the OTA market is growing very much. The fact that OTA is not a viable alternative to most Americans doesn't make it a huge potential market.


----------



## rainwater

mr_smits said:


> I understand the MSO market is their main focus. However, unless they plan to shut down retail market they need to make money on it now and in the future.


Not necessarily. It seems lately the SA market is sort of TiVo's test bed and the MSO market is where their main focus for revenue is.


----------



## jamesjones_det

jmpage2 said:


> Engadget reported that it has a 2GB Flash buffer that is used for the OS and for cache.
> 
> 2GB of flash in large quantities is about $2-$3 at most.
> 
> If I were to hazard a guess I would say that the most expensive component in the Mini is probably the MoCA hardware... but even with that it's hard to see this thing costing TiVo more than $50 to manufacture.


This highly depends on the quality of flash required, if you are doing several writes and clears of all cache your going to want something higher grade then a jump drive flash module.

Either way your talking less then $5 for 2GB of flash, unless they are doing something crazy like SLC then it's in the $8 range. Not matter what this is a minor cost of the product.


----------



## jamesjones_det

rainwater said:


> Very few of those have XL4 models already which is a requirement. TiVo has made it clear the last few years that the MSO market is their main focus not the SA market. Again, they obviously are going to try to sell these as a bundle so new users even in the SA market will be the focus.


Premiere 4 was/is also listed.


----------



## wco81

Well, I was looking to see what they were going to do with this but if as speculated, the Mini has some ridiculous price, I guess I'd have to stay with D* and try to get them to give me a Genie and Whole Home DVR install.

First the XL4 is like $900 with lifetime? And if they charge another $300 for basically a terminal, they're not going to get many takers.


----------



## jamesjones_det

wco81 said:


> Well, I was looking to see what they were going to do with this but if as speculated, the Mini has some ridiculous price, I guess I'd have to stay with D* and try to get them to give me a Genie and Whole Home DVR install.
> 
> First the XL4 is like $900 with lifetime? And if they charge another $300 for basically a terminal, they're not going to get many takers.


Careful with the Genie, I just left DTV for WOW. DTV still charges you $6 per TV even if you have a RVU capable TV. If you have 4 rooms like me the Genie basically costs you $38 a month ($20 for Genie + 3 rooms at $6 each).

I was actually paying less with 2 HR-21s and 2 HD receivers and the old $3 fee for "whole home support" - $31 ($10 "advanced receivers" aka 2 dvrs + 3 rooms at $6 + $3 for whole home).


----------



## wco81

What is WOW?

Yeah if I can get a good promo deal from Comcast, it may offset the up-front Tivo price.


----------



## CoxInPHX

rainwater said:


> Very few of those have XL4 models already which is a requirement. TiVo has made it clear the last few years that the MSO market is their main focus not the SA market. Again, they obviously are going to try to sell these as a bundle so new users even in the *SA market* will be the focus.





rainwater said:


> Not necessarily. It seems lately the *SA market* is sort of TiVo's test bed and the MSO market is where their main focus for revenue is.


What is an SA market? What does SA stand for? I typically think of Scientific Atlanta.


----------



## CoxInPHX

wco81 said:


> What is WOW?


A Cable Co: http://www.wowway.com/ (formerly WideOpenWest)


----------



## SullyND

CoxInPHX said:


> What is an SA market? What does SA stand for? I typically think of Scientific Atlanta.


Stand-Alone.


----------



## atmuscarella

CoxInPHX said:


> What is an SA market? What does SA stand for? I typically think of Scientific Atlanta.


I believe SA = stand alone but what is being talk about are DVRs purchased by individuals from 3rd parties versus DVRs provided by their pay tv provider


----------



## slowbiscuit

Scientific Atlanta (now Cisco) STB market is the correct usage, not standalone. Way too confusing to use SA otherwise.


----------



## atmuscarella

slowbiscuit said:


> Scientific Atlanta (now Cisco) STB market is the correct usage, not standalone. Way too confusing to use SA otherwise.


Ya I find many typing shortcuts confusing as there are no correct usage rules. You and CoxInPHX thought SA was short for Scientific Atlanta but rainwater, SullyND, and myself understood it to mean Stand Alone in the context that rainwater used it in. I have seen plenty of posts using it both ways.


----------



## True Colors

Can we purchase a Tivo Mini yet? 

If not, then is there an official release date yet?

TC


----------



## innocentfreak

True Colors said:


> Can we purchase a Tivo Mini yet?
> 
> If not, then is there an official release date yet?
> 
> TC


No one knows. It hasn't really been officially announced.


----------



## mr_smits

We're about due for some information...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Spring is the latest "date" we have. No price yet.


----------



## True Colors

Still nothing? Unbelievable.

It has been five months since Tivo issued a formal press release that this product was forthcoming -- FIVE FREAKING MONTHS!!!

At the very least Tivo could give us an update on this.

I mean seriously, what technology issues a formal product statement but then goes completely silent for this long?

My love/hate feelings for Tivo continue on.......

TC


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

8 months if you count its appearance at The Cable Show last May where it was first shown. 

Tivo showed the Mini at the Consumer Electronics Show two weeks ago. Most of the discussion is in this thread, so read back a couple pages. But here is a link to Engadget's coverage:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/

We learned (and can see from the video) that it basically has the same Premiere interface. There will be a reduced monthly fee or lifetime option. We don't know what those are officially.

The RUMOR (and strictly rumor) is that it might be $8/mo and be released in the late March/early April period. No rumors about the lifetime option though. (and yes, some of us are pitching a fit over the fee.)


----------



## RichB

moyekj said:


> If box with lifetime > $200 then I'm not interested. $150 with lifetime I would buy without hesitation. Certainly no interest at all in monthly charge however low it may be. 4 tuner host requirement is stupid (especially since you can tell host unit to not dedicate any tuners to the Mini) but since I already have a 4 tuner device that requirement would not stop me from getting one.


Many folks would go to TiVo if they could outfit our houses without all these montly fees. I do not see the value proposition.

The TiVo folks need to get out of the building. 
They think the only choice for those in the TiVo universe is this or our big box. Too bad the do not concentrate on big central hubs and support DLNA.

That way they stream directly to your bedroom TV without a box.

Oh yeah, that would be solving your problem, not theirs.

- Rich


----------



## Dan203

TiVo has changes focus in recent years. These days they're focusing more on what they can sell to cable operators. The retail market is secondary. MSOs want a whole house solution with a single box to record and streaming boxes to place around the house. Something they can easily bundle and charge a monthly fee for. That's the primary focus of the Mini and the 4 tuner TiVo boxes. This is evidenced more by the recent TiVo survey which was almost entirely focused on how they might implement multiple users into the TiVo box. 

Dan


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## RichB

That is fine.
I wonder who is interested in the customers desires.

They asked me to participate in a survey.
I know I told them no monthly fee.
Do you think anyone did? 

Why bother asking... 

- Rich


----------



## Dan203

Sometimes outside forces make business decisions rather then customer desire. TiVo is now in the unique position where they have to try to not compete with their MSO partners. They have to consider that when pricing things now. 

Dan


----------



## atmuscarella

RichB said:


> That is fine.
> I wonder who is interested in the customers desires.
> 
> They asked me to participate in a survey.
> I know I told them no monthly fee.
> Do you think anyone did?
> 
> Why bother asking...
> 
> - Rich


Well apparently some people must like monthly fees/payments as not everyone buys lifetime and in the world outside of Tivo people buy lots of things on a monthly payment. Tivo gives people a choice pay once or pay monthly. Complaining about having that choice seems pretty foolish.

The main issue I see with the mini & pricing is people want it to be cheaper than it is likely going to be. Same is true for Tivo's DVRs in general. In the end everyone gets to decide how to spend their money if they don't think a Tivo DVR or the up coming mini is worth the cost then the answer is simple don't buy one.


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Sometimes outside forces make business decisions rather then customer desire. TiVo is now in the unique position where they have to try to not compete with their MSO partners. They have to consider that when pricing things now.
> 
> Dan


I also think they have decided that stand alone DVRs are a niche product not a potential high volume mass market product and are pricing according. If the market is really only a few hundred thousand a year the price has to be substantially different than if the market were a few million a year or 10s of millions per year.


----------



## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> I also think they have decided that stand alone DVRs are a niche product not a potential high volume mass market product and are pricing according. If the market is really only a few hundred thousand a year the price has to be substantially different than if the market were a few million a year or 10s of millions per year.


That's very true. They are also being more conservative with pricing these days and not subsidizing hardware as much, or at all, compare to the old days.

Dan


----------



## wmcbrine

atmuscarella said:


> Well apparently some people must like monthly fees/payments as not everyone buys lifetime


Nobody likes monthly fees, but lifetime service is fairly expensive. There's also a risk of some of it going to waste if the box fails.


----------



## lessd

wmcbrine said:


> Nobody likes monthly fees, but lifetime service is fairly expensive. There's also a risk of some of it going to waste if the box fails.


The risk of a new TiVo going bad within the time that monthly would pay off the lifetime cost is very small, and for $39 you bring the risk to 0. To purchase a old TiVo, say a series 2 or even a series 3 without Lifetime with the intension of putting Lifetime on that box, you point is well taken. Having said that I will guess that 99.8% of TiVos going bad are the hard drive, that easy and not to costly to replace, to keep your Lifetime going.


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## tchapin

The TiVo mini is equivalent to an AppleTV or Roku. A monthly fee is really silly since it's pulling all of the content, guide, and tuners from your main TiVo. That really turns me off the product. Hopefully they'll really nail the product and pricing, but a monthly fee for it, even if reduced, makes me uncertain.


----------



## morac

Dan203 said:


> That's very true. They are also being more conservative with pricing these days and not subsidizing hardware as much, or at all, compare to the old days.
> 
> Dan


Yet they have no qualms hiring Tim Teebo or airing TV commercials. Something that wouldn't be necessary if marketing solely to cable companies.


----------



## RichB

tchapin said:


> The TiVo mini is equivalent to an AppleTV or Roku. A monthly fee is really silly since it's pulling all of the content, guide, and tuners from your main TiVo. That really turns me off the product. Hopefully they'll really nail the product and pricing, but a monthly fee for it, even if reduced, makes me uncertain.


In the TiVo world, they have a value proposition and basically they are saying, if don't like it don't buy it.

In the marketplace, there are other choices as you point out.
Failure to understand this, leads to declining market share.

What makes this disturbing, is that many TiVo fans like me want to see TiVo get relevant in the market place. But, it looks like that is not happening.

I tried to get my brother to switch to TiVo but he did the math.

- Rich


----------



## Dan203

morac said:


> Yet they have no qualms hiring Tim Teebo or airing TV commercials. Something that wouldn't be necessary if marketing solely to cable companies.


Even with cable companies they are selling (renting) TiVo as a premim option. And they need name recognition to make that happen. That's why they air TV commercials and have Tim Tebo as their spokeman.

Dan


----------



## slowbiscuit

tchapin said:


> The TiVo mini is equivalent to an AppleTV or Roku. A monthly fee is really silly since it's pulling all of the content, guide, and tuners from your main TiVo. That really turns me off the product. Hopefully they'll really nail the product and pricing, but a monthly fee for it, even if reduced, makes me uncertain.


This is what a lot of people here have heartburn with - Tivo will not price the Mini according to what we perceive it is worth hardware and software-wise, but according to what they can justify to their cable partners.

And there's no technical reason why it couldn't just be an app that runs on any device that can handle an mpeg2 stream out there today (Xbox, PS3 etc.). I'm not sure if the Roku could handle that.


----------



## wkearney99

RichB said:


> I tried to get my brother to switch to TiVo but he did the math.


Yeah, well, 'doing the math' would have a lot of very successful products 'fail' in the market. Why bother buying a Mercedes when a Chevy can do the same job? Oh wait, because it's more about the experience than just the math.

Yes, there's definitely an argument to be made for how Tivo has absolutely squandered their advantage in the market, especially with regard to 3rd party development.

And before you dismiss the notion of catering to cable companies you have to do the math. It's far less expensive to sell to just a cable company instead of to each and every individual customer.

So it's not so simple. But Tivo is certainly missing a lot of what many people would consider great opportunities. Like they've done pretty much all along.


----------



## atmuscarella

Well there are no technical reasons for TiVo not doing lots of things that some of us would like. I personally have a very long list and expect none of them to happen. 

The reality is TiVo (or any company) makes most of their decisions based on financial realities as they see them. None of us are likely to every know with 100% certainty how TiVo decides on the mini's pricing and I find it irrelevant. All that will matter is what it ends up being. What ever the price is it will be acceptable to some and not acceptable to others. 

But again unit we actually see what the mini costs and how it works I think it is foolish to get all excited about what the price might be.


----------



## atmuscarella

RichB said:


> In the TiVo world, they have a value proposition and basically they are saying, if don't like it don't buy it.


Last time I looked that is pretty much what all companies say.



RichB said:


> In the marketplace, there are other choices as you point out.
> Failure to understand this, leads to declining market share.


Given that no other company produces stand alone DVR appliances (for cable) I would say that everyone but TiVo has decided there isn't enough of a market to even bother with.



RichB said:


> What makes this disturbing, is that many TiVo fans like me want to see TiVo get relevant in the market place. But, it looks like that is not happening.
> 
> I tried to get my brother to switch to TiVo but he did the math.
> 
> - Rich


Yes most of us really would like to see TiVo succeed and be able to offer us better more exciting DVR products. If TiVo can compete on price or not really just depends on if the pay TV provider is using their DVR as a loss leader or not. If the pay TV provider is actually making money on their DVR, then TiVo can and does compete on price - just check out TWC's pricing if you want a good example.

In any event my opinion has been and still is that the price is only a minor part of why TiVo doesn't sell more DVRs. The general public is not interested in dealing with cable cards and/or tuning adapters. Until TiVo can offer a solution that doesn't require renting anything from the pay TV provider or any more work than just plugging in the coax cable then they will not have a product that is acceptable to the general public regardless of price.


----------



## crxssi

slowbiscuit said:


> This is what a lot of people here have heartburn with - Tivo will not price the Mini according to what we perceive it is worth hardware and software-wise, but according to what they can justify to their cable partners.


That is EXACTLY the point. To me, it is only worth maybe double what a Roku costs and not much more. If I wanted to spend $400+, I would buy a used TiVo with Lifetime and go that route for my one other TV. But my need is not high enough to justify the expense.



> And there's no technical reason why it couldn't just be an app that runs on any device that can handle an mpeg2 stream out there today (Xbox, PS3 etc.). I'm not sure if the Roku could handle that.


Or they just go that route with the TiVo Stream and open it to Roku or whatever. It is very IRRITATING to current TiVo owners to see MS-Windows Media center allowing cheap remote boxes. But we pay a premium for what is supposedly the best and most sophisticated DVR on the planet and it can't do that. And it lags behind a $75 device when it comes to all other functions- Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, HBO Go, Hulu, Crackle, etc.

At CES a week ago Roku said this:

"First, we announced that we have now surpassed 700 channels on the Roku platform in our quest to bring customers the best range and quality in streaming entertainment. In fact, we ended 2012 having streamed one billion hours! Weve just announced a partnership with Time Warner Cable, which will bring TWC TV (featuring up to 300 live television channels) to Roku streaming devices in the U.S. Weve also inked deals with more than a dozen new partners including Blockbuster On Demand, FOX NOW, PBS, PBS KIDS, iHeartRadio and Big Fish Unlimited to name a few. These new video, music and casual games channels are launching in the Roku Channel Store this quarter."

Meanwhile, we still can't even use DLNA. We can't stream our content to desktops or laptops. We can't use the Stream with Android. We can't fully control the TiVo with a desktop. We have almost no UI customization options (can't even turn off the Discovery Bar, get rid of the stupid "HD Programs" folder, create custom folders, adjust the font sizes, or change the background).

There is a lot of pent-up frustration, especially from long-term TiVo users.... I am one of them.


----------



## RichB

wkearney99 said:


> Yeah, well, 'doing the math' would have a lot of very successful products 'fail' in the market. Why bother buying a Mercedes when a Chevy can do the same job? Oh wait, because it's more about the experience than just the math.
> 
> Yes, there's definitely an argument to be made for how Tivo has absolutely squandered their advantage in the market, especially with regard to 3rd party development.
> 
> And before you dismiss the notion of catering to cable companies you have to do the math. It's far less expensive to sell to just a cable company instead of to each and every individual customer.
> 
> So it's not so simple. But Tivo is certainly missing a lot of what many people would consider great opportunities. Like they've done pretty much all along.


Mercedes makes money, see the difference.

The mini presents an opportunity to privede a centralized DVR with satellites. IMO TiVo should make 6 tuner cable only DVR and sell it as a package with mini's. One for renters and one buyers.

Say you have 5 TV's and a typical cable system.
At $8 per hd box and $15 for the DVR, your monthly bill is $47.

A cable card is $4. TiVo can represent a savings a $43 per month and $516 per year. So with a 3 year payback, this bundle with lifetime has to cost about $1550.

I was actually talking about math 

- Rich


----------



## RichB

crxssi said:


> That is EXACTLY the point. To me, it is only worth maybe double what a Roku costs and not much more. If I wanted to spend $400+, I would buy a used TiVo with Lifetime and go that route for my one other TV. But my need is not high enough to justify the expense.
> 
> Or they just go that route with the TiVo Stream and open it to Roku or whatever. It is very IRRITATING to current TiVo owners to see MS-Windows Media center allowing cheap remote boxes. But we pay a premium for what is supposedly the best and most sophisticated DVR on the planet and it can't do that. And it lags behind a $75 device when it comes to all other functions- Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, HBO Go, Hulu, Crackle, etc.
> 
> At CES a week ago Roku said this:
> 
> "First, we announced that we have now surpassed 700 channels on the Roku platform in our quest to bring customers the best range and quality in streaming entertainment. In fact, we ended 2012 having streamed one billion hours! Weve just announced a partnership with Time Warner Cable, which will bring TWC TV (featuring up to 300 live television channels) to Roku streaming devices in the U.S. Weve also inked deals with more than a dozen new partners including Blockbuster On Demand, FOX NOW, PBS, PBS KIDS, iHeartRadio and Big Fish Unlimited to name a few. These new video, music and casual games channels are launching in the Roku Channel Store this quarter."
> 
> Meanwhile, we still can't even use DLNA. We can't stream our content to desktops or laptops. We can't use the Stream with Android. We can't fully control the TiVo with a desktop. We have almost no UI customization options (can't even turn off the Discovery Bar, get rid of the stupid "HD Programs" folder, create custom folders, adjust the font sizes, or change the background).
> 
> There is a lot of pent-up frustration, especially from long-term TiVo users.... I am one of them.


I am right there with you.
TiVo wants control of the customer, but the marketplace will destroy them is they insist on ignoring it.

With DLNA, you have streaming to the TV without a box.
Very handy in the Kitchen.

Imagine is TiVo could stream to a Roku....
With a little joint marketing, they could sell a lot of 4 tuner or even 6 tuner "media server".

What TiVo end user wouldn't want that.
Oh, yeah the cable companies...

Someone will build this and then TiVo will be relegated to the MSO's who in turn are getting squeezed by IP TV.

- Rich


----------



## Dan203

Roku can't do MPEG-2, so the only way a TiVo could stream to a Roku is if you had a TiVo Stream. ($129) And while the Stream is great for watching a few shows on an iPad the navigation is slow and nothing like the experience you get when streaming between two TiVos. While doing a Roku app is possible I'm not sure the experience would be equivalent to what you'll get with a Mini. 

Now an app for an MPEG-2 enabled device like an XBox or PS3 is a different story. However maintaing apps for multiple devices like that costs a lot of money and I'm not sure there is enough profit motivation for TiVo to do it. At least with the Roku app you have to buy a Stream. If they had an XBox or PS3 app it would be all work for no money. The Mini is a better proposition for them in that area because then they control the hardware and the costs to use it. 

Dan


----------



## atmuscarella

Dan203 said:


> Roku can't do MPEG-2, so the only way a TiVo could stream to a Roku is if you had a TiVo Stream. ($129) And while the Stream is great for watching a few shows on an iPad the navigation is slow and nothing like the experience you get when streaming between two TiVos. While doing a Roku app is possible I'm not sure the experience would be equivalent to what you'll get with a Mini.
> 
> Now an app for an MPEG-2 enabled device like an XBox or PS3 is a different story. However maintaing apps for multiple devices like that costs a lot of money and I'm not sure there is enough profit motivation for TiVo to do it. At least with the Roku app you have to buy a Stream. If they had an XBox or PS3 app it would be all work for no money. The Mini is a better proposition for them in that area because then they control the hardware and the costs to use it.
> 
> Dan


One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.


----------



## mr_smits

The frustration is that Tivo represents one of the only real alternatives to cable company and satellite DVRs. There is no real, easy alternatives for the average consumer. We want Tivo to succeed and we want our personal needs met, but the reality is that consumers can take it or leave it: there are no alternatives.


----------



## RichB

Dan203 said:


> Roku can't do MPEG-2, so the only way a TiVo could stream to a Roku is if you had a TiVo Stream. ($129) And while the Stream is great for watching a few shows on an iPad the navigation is slow and nothing like the experience you get when streaming between two TiVos. While doing a Roku app is possible I'm not sure the experience would be equivalent to what you'll get with a Mini.
> 
> Now an app for an MPEG-2 enabled device like an XBox or PS3 is a different story. However maintaing apps for multiple devices like that costs a lot of money and I'm not sure there is enough profit motivation for TiVo to do it. At least with the Roku app you have to buy a Stream. If they had an XBox or PS3 app it would be all work for no money. The Mini is a better proposition for them in that area because then they control the hardware and the costs to use it.
> 
> Dan


Obviously, H.264 has been imporatant for a while.
The IPad was a big deal when the Premiere was designed.
Water under the bridge.

Moving forward, will TiVo learn to spell DLNA or H.264?
Only, if they decide to try to lead again.

- Rich


----------



## Dan203

atmuscarella said:


> One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.


There are some security problems with that. They have some strict requirements when it comes to streaming and PCs are hot beds for cracking. I'm not sure they want to risk having their protocol exposed and open themselves up to a potential issue with Cable Labs.

Dan


----------



## rainwater

atmuscarella said:


> One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.


I'm pretty sure TiVo Desktop is a dead product at this point. At some point, I think they will do PC based streaming from the TiVo Stream but I wouldn't be surprised if it was done as a separate product as TiVo Desktop.


----------



## Dan203

rainwater said:


> I'm pretty sure TiVo Desktop is a dead product at this point. At some point, I think they will do PC based streaming from the TiVo Stream but I wouldn't be surprised if it was done as a separate product as TiVo Desktop.


I betting the only streaming we get on a PC is via a Windows 8 app someday.

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

crxssi said:


> It is very IRRITATING to current TiVo owners to see MS-Windows Media center allowing cheap remote boxes.


Well unless of course you have Windows 8.

Microsoft confirms only Xbox will work as extender on Windows 8


----------



## slowbiscuit

Dan203 said:


> Roku can't do MPEG-2, so the only way a TiVo could stream to a Roku is if you had a TiVo Stream. ($129) And while the Stream is great for watching a few shows on an iPad the navigation is slow and nothing like the experience you get when streaming between two TiVos. While doing a Roku app is possible I'm not sure the experience would be equivalent to what you'll get with a Mini.
> 
> Now an app for an MPEG-2 enabled device like an XBox or PS3 is a different story. However maintaing apps for multiple devices like that costs a lot of money and I'm not sure there is enough profit motivation for TiVo to do it. At least with the Roku app you have to buy a Stream. If they had an XBox or PS3 app it would be all work for no money. The Mini is a better proposition for them in that area because then they control the hardware and the costs to use it.
> 
> Dan


All good points, but if a small company like Silicondust can deliver a DTCP-IP enabled DLNA server in their cable tuner products, there's no reason why Tivo can't do the same. Today. On the Premieres. For all content, protected or not.

And then we don't even need Minis if all you want is live or recorded TV with simple streaming/playback (and are on a cableCo with a lot of unprotected channels like Comcast), because a lot of devices can do this today. I just added a DLNA client and video player to my wife's 2nd-gen Kindle Fire, frex, and it works well for live SD channel streaming from the Prime tuner - no extra hardware needed, not even a PC.

Even if you are stuck on TWC or some other company that protects a lot of stuff, the PS3 can do DTCP-IP right now and more clients will be coming (I've heard a lot of the 2012 model HDTVs can do it).


----------



## aaronwt

RichB said:


> That is fine.
> I wonder who is interested in the customers desires.
> 
> They asked me to participate in a survey.
> I know I told them no monthly fee.
> Do you think anyone did?
> 
> Why bother asking...
> 
> - Rich


I have no problem with a monthly fee. It just depends on the price. At $5 a month I might go monthly. but it also depends on the lifetime price. At $8 I would not go monthly since I'm only paying $6.95 a month for my two tuner Premiere. And I see no point in paying a higher monthly price for Mini than I am paying for a two tuner Premiere. But you never know. If lifetime is outrageously priced then I won't have a choice but to go monthly.


----------



## Dan203

slowbiscuit said:


> All good points, but if a small company like Silicondust can deliver a DTCP-IP enabled DLNA server in their cable tuner products, there's no reason why Tivo can't do the same. Today. On the Premieres. For all content, protected or not.
> 
> And then we don't even need Minis if all you want is live or recorded TV with simple streaming/playback (and are on a cableCo with a lot of unprotected channels like Comcast), because a lot of devices can do this today. I just added a DLNA client and video player to my wife's 2nd-gen Kindle Fire, frex, and it works well for live SD channel streaming from the Prime tuner - no extra hardware needed, not even a PC.
> 
> Even if you are stuck on TWC or some other company that protects a lot of stuff, the PS3 can do DTCP-IP right now and more clients will be coming (I've heard a lot of the 2012 model HDTVs can do it).


Like I said right now they are more focused on cable partners and their needs, then the retail market. As cool as DLNA is cable companies want something they can rent and make money off. We may see DLNA streaming from TiVo someday, but I doubt it's a priority.

Dan


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## DaveDFW

Slightly off-topic, but I just saw a banner ad from Tivo pushing a "whole-home" solution. Tivo's definition of "whole-home" is a solution which consists of a Premiere plus three iPads.


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## Dan203

The video in the 3rd panel isn't lined up with the iPad screen. It's floating in the air.

Dan


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## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> The video in the 3rd panel isn't lined up with the iPad screen. It's floating in the air.


I didn't even notice that the first time. The levitating screen image has a cutout for a thumb--so close yet so far!


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## tatergator1

Just another reason for companies to always included the "Screen images simulated" disclaimer!!


----------



## RichB

DaveDFW said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I just saw a banner ad from Tivo pushing a "whole-home" solution. Tivo's definition of "whole-home" is a solution which consists of a Premiere plus three iPads.


Well, someone told them whole home was a big thing.
To which, an executive asks: what have we got for that?

The rest is history 

- Rich


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## rcompton

Hi- new to these fora, got here looking for a way to extend my current 'main' 4-tuner Tivo into a couple of temporary locations. (Would like to occasionally place a TV out on the patio, etc..). Found the Tivo Mini, and have tried to read up on what I can, but I can't seem to come across any real advantage to what it appears to offer over a 1-into-2 (or 3 or 4) HDMI splitter and a run of CAT6 cable with an HDMI outlet at a couple locations. Based on my luck with Wifi in my home, I would run ethernet to any connected device anyway. I really feel like I am missing something (beyond the obvious chance to fork over more money to Tivo), but am I wrong? 

Thanks in advance!


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## Dan203

The advantage to a Mini over a simple HDMI splitter is that someone can be watching something on the main TV and something else on the Mini at the same time. With an HDMI splitter you're seeing the same output so you can only watch one show at a time. The other is that the Mini is networked so there is no need to worry about wire length or using some sort of blaun if you need to go more then 25'. (max for HDMI run)

Dan


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## Jonathan_S

rcompton said:


> Hi- new to these fora, got here looking for a way to extend my current 'main' 4-tuner Tivo into a couple of temporary locations. (Would like to occasionally place a TV out on the patio, etc..). Found the Tivo Mini, and have tried to read up on what I can, but I can't seem to come across any real advantage to what it appears to offer over a 1-into-2 (or 3 or 4) HDMI splitter and a run of CAT6 cable with an HDMI outlet at a couple locations. Based on my luck with Wifi in my home, I would run ethernet to any connected device anyway. I really feel like I am missing something (beyond the obvious chance to fork over more money to Tivo), but am I wrong?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


There are a couple potential advantages to the Mini; depending on your usage pattern.

First, a HDMI splitter doesn't get remote control from the alternate TV location back to the TiVo. Now if you're watching live sports while grilling on the patio that's probably irrelivant; tune the TiVo to the game and you don't need the remote for the next couple hours. But for other things it's more of an issue.

Second the Mini can play something other than a clone of what the TiVo is displaying on the main screen. Not a big deal in a single viewer household where you're just moving around the display location of the single show. But if you've got two or more people watching the ability to watch one thing on the primary TV and a seperate thing on the Mini's TV could be very nice. (Or even the same show in both places, but at different point so if one person paused it to use the bathroom the other could keep watching without affecting them)

But it is likely to be more expensive that HMDI. (Although if you already have cable coax running to all the locations you can use the Premiere 4 and Mini's MOCA ability rather than wifi or having to pull ethernet. That would be an advantage over having to pull HDMI.

But ultimately whether the Mini makes sense for you depends on your watching habits and what TiVo ends up charging for it.


----------



## rcompton

Thanks - should have mentioned this would just be a clone of the main TV (for times when we want to watch something in another location, not different programming in each location = and the Ipad/Iphone TIVO remote works anywhere on my network, so IR remote carry is not an issue for me anyway...... I have run up to +/- 70' of HDMI (using good class 1 cable - curious why there is a limitation of 25' off the TIVO(?)) Either way, I would go HDMI->CAT6->HDMI, so the long run(s) would be CAT6 cable, which I already have miles of.....good luck to all on the Mini!


----------



## jano18

rcompton said:


> Thanks - should have mentioned this would just be a clone of the main TV (for times when we want to watch something in another location, not different programming in each location = and the Ipad/Iphone TIVO remote works anywhere on my network, so IR remote carry is not an issue for me anyway...... I have run up to +/- 70' of HDMI (using good class 1 cable - curious why there is a limitation of 25' off the TIVO(?)) Either way, I would go HDMI->CAT6->HDMI, so the long run(s) would be CAT6 cable, which I already have miles of.....good luck to all on the Mini!


From personal experience as well, I have attempted to use Cat6 over HDMI for a 60' run before unsuccessfully. I am currently running a standard speed 20 meter HDMI from Binary in my Living Room through an AVR. I debated between this & using Cat6 balums. If you plan to use Cat6 I strongly suggest using a balum, but these can be pricy for good ones & also problematic. If I were to do it again I would purchase Red Mere cables from Monoprice, they weren't available a year ago. I've also had mixed results with HDMI splitters. HDMI handshake issues can be fun to diagnose, in my opinion the more simple you keep it the better the results will be.


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## h2oskierc

Jonathan_S said:


> Now if you're watching live sports while grilling on the patio that's probably irrelivant; tune the TiVo to the game and you don't need the remote for the next couple hours.


People still watch TV live? The nice thing about TiVo is if you have wifi coverage you don't need a remote. Put the app on your phone and you are set. I actually prefer the TiVo app to any of my remotes now.


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## crxssi

h2oskierc said:


> People still watch TV live?


Certainly not me.



> The nice thing about TiVo is if you have wifi coverage you don't need a remote. Put the app on your phone and you are set. I actually prefer the TiVo app to any of my remotes now.


I find using the phone as a remote extremely irritating and frustrating. There are no physical keys, which means you have to look at it every time. The launch time is slow. Every time you want to use it, you have to turn the phone back on and unlock it. It is far from anything more than a very occasional-use type thing to me.


----------



## morac

h2oskierc said:


> People still watch TV live? The nice thing about TiVo is if you have wifi coverage you don't need a remote. Put the app on your phone and you are set. I actually prefer the TiVo app to any of my remotes now.


The app is nice to use if you have to do complex things like set up a recording or the link, but not using it as a primary remote. Not only do you need to unlock the device as mentioned above, but when you are using the TiVo app, you can't do anything else. I like to use 2nd screen apps or Twitter with TV programs and switching back and forth between those apps and the TiVo app would get annoying really quickly.


----------



## wkearney99

morac said:


> ...and switching back and forth between those apps and the TiVo app would get annoying really quickly.


What's so hard about switching apps? Either hold the Home button or swipe four fingers to bring up the list.


----------



## morac

wkearney99 said:


> What's so hard about switching apps? Either hold the Home button or swipe four fingers to bring up the list.


I prefer not having to look at the "remote" to use it. That's why I like the Slide remote.


----------



## steve614

atmuscarella said:


> Until TiVo can offer a solution that doesn't require renting anything from the pay TV provider or any more work than just plugging in the coax cable then they will not have a product that is acceptable to the general public regardless of price.


I don't see that happening anytime soon. The pay TV providers will fight tooth and nail against having to allow 3rd party devices unfettered access to their cable system.
The only reason cable companies tolerate TiVo now is because the FCC makes them. 



Dan203 said:


> cable companies want something they can rent and make money off.
> 
> Dan


This is the bottom line.
[Metallica]Nothing Else Matters[/Metallica]


----------



## RichB

It is getting interesting.
Verizon, for example, has a limited base since they have to run fiber.
They are already expanding into IPTV since they have the technology to deliver programming.

Change is coming...

- Rich


----------



## slowbiscuit

Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.


----------



## atmuscarella

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.


For that to happen cable companies will have to believe they will be able to make more money from IP delivery system than they are now. Near term I find that fairly unlikely the vast majority of homes only have one cable going to them and the cable company owns it. So no reason to change.


----------



## jjd_87

atmuscarella said:


> For that to happen cable companies will have to believe they will be able to make more money from IP delivery system than they are now. Near term I find that fairly unlikely the vast majority of homes only have one cable going to them and the cable company owns it. So no reason to change.


Exactly, most people depend on cable for internet. Even people that don't have cable tv. That's why cable companies are putting caps on their internet.


----------



## philhu

atmuscarella said:


> One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.


They tried that. Look at LiquidPTV:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45

It was a full tivo on a PC, including guide data. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't make it


----------



## Dan203

philhu said:


> They tried that. Look at LiquidPTV:
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45
> 
> It was a full tivo on a PC, including guide data. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't make it


That was put down by MediaCenter and the emergence of CableCARDs. MediaCenter was free, LiquidTV cost up front and per month IIRRC. Plus still to this day MCE is the only software allowed to record from CableCARDs. There were a few other MCE alternatives back in the day that were basically put out of business by CableCARDs.

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

Also liquidTV was done by Ahead who all but disappeared around that time. It was around the time Nero started sucking.


----------



## mr_smits

slowbiscuit said:


> Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.


IP clients would be great, but like was mentioned by another poster, I don't see this money making machine being voluntarily abandoned by cable companies. It is a cash cow.

Also, I admit I'm not an Apple devotee, but I feel like I can objectively state that Apple will not crack the TV market as many people hope they will do. The content providers and service providers like money and don't want to share it with Apple. Allowing Apple access to this market would be like gifting them billions of dollars with little benefit to them. They have zero incentive to offer Apple access to their very lucrative market.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> That was put down by MediaCenter and the emergence of CableCARDs. MediaCenter was free, LiquidTV cost up front and per month IIRRC.


It wasn't just that it came with cost, but it sucked in general and was inferior to (the free) Media Center. Also, I think some of the intent had been a way to expand internationally, but obviously the uptake was abysmal enough that they let it die. TiVo probably didn't care too much as they still got paid by Nero in some form and their brand wasn't really hurt. Kinda like the Comcast Motorola TiVo - they got paid for the R&D despite it sucking and being ****canned. Although they lost out on whatever subscriber deal they may have had in place.


----------



## slowbiscuit

mr_smits said:


> IP clients would be great, but like was mentioned by another poster, I don't see this money making machine being voluntarily abandoned by cable companies. It is a cash cow.


TWC has claimed that STBs are on their way out and that they don't make any money on them. If that's true, why aren't others on the bandwagon to give us a way forward without them? And if they're going to go all-IP as they claim, why do we need their gateways other than for non-IP enabled TVs? Why can't we just stream what we want from their servers?

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/set-top-box-dead-long-live-home-gateway/2011-05-02
http://stopthecap.com/2012/08/02/ti...p-network-channel-realignment-dvrbox-changes/


----------



## mr_smits

slowbiscuit said:


> TWC has claimed that STBs are on their way out and that they don't make any money on them. If that's true, why aren't they on the bandwagon to give us a way forward without them?
> 
> http://www.fiercecable.com/story/set-top-box-dead-long-live-home-gateway/2011-05-02
> http://stopthecap.com/2012/08/02/ti...p-network-channel-realignment-dvrbox-changes/


STB will go away but not the home gateway. You can bet they will charge and charge for that device.

They want to maximize their profits so they will do whatever is in their best interests. If they can find a way to keep or expand their profits while giving alternatives an opening then they will.


----------



## lessd

RichB said:


> Mercedes makes money, see the difference.
> 
> - Rich


If the Mercedes makes money it is not because the car can drive you 100 miles as many other less expensive cars can also do that, its the experience of the Mercedes that sells this car, as a side note I have one (2003 S430) and I love it, my friend got the new 2013 high end Cadillac MLP $60,000, and today I would not pay $50,000 more for the equivalent new Mercedes I now have, as the Cadillac would be good enough (I not purchasing a new car in the near future so there may be other options for me when I do start looking).


----------



## pixelpusher220

aaronwt said:


> I have no problem with a monthly fee. It just depends on the price. At $5 a month I might go monthly. but it also depends on the lifetime price. At $8 I would not go monthly since I'm only paying $6.95 a month for my two tuner Premiere. And I see no point in paying a higher monthly price for Mini than I am paying for a two tuner Premiere. But you never know. If lifetime is outrageously priced then I won't have a choice but to go monthly.


This is the entire problem. The Tivo Mini does NOT HAVE A TUNER. It is using a tuner from the main Tivo box, on which I have ALREADY paid my fee.

Why on earth would a 'dumb' client like the Mini require a monthly fee? It's not like Mini has a tuner and is recording onto the Tivo is it?

If it is, they're doing it wrong. Those situations would justify a 2nd Tivo, but clients to consume media don't need tuners, their source is the tuner.


----------



## mr_smits

pixelpusher220 said:


> This is the entire problem. The Tivo Mini does NOT HAVE A TUNER. It is using a tuner from the main Tivo box, on which I have ALREADY paid my fee.
> 
> Why on earth would a 'dumb' client like the Mini require a monthly fee? It's not like Mini has a tuner and is recording onto the Tivo is it?
> 
> If it is, they're doing it wrong. Those situations would justify a 2nd Tivo, but clients to consume media don't need tuners, their source is the tuner.


Your reasoning really doesn't matter. The Mini will obviate the need for multiple Tivos in a household. Tivo will charge SOMETHING to make up for this loss.


----------



## pixelpusher220

mr_smits said:


> Your reasoning really doesn't matter. The Mini will obviate the need for multiple Tivos in a household. Tivo will charge SOMETHING to make up for this loss.


If they were intelligent they would sell the Mini's as a loss leader to sell more big expensive Premiere boxes.

The loss is Media Center's cheap client solution and then they sell zero Tivos...


----------



## jmpage2

pixelpusher220 said:


> If they were intelligent they would sell the Mini's as a loss leader to sell more big expensive Premiere boxes.
> 
> The loss is Media Center's cheap client solution and then they sell zero Tivos...


Exactly!!


----------



## Dan203

I don't think there is enough profit in a Premiere box for that to work. In fact I'm pretty sure the Premiere hardware is already subsidized so that they don't even break even until after a year of service payments.

I don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about the prospect of a service fee. For all we know a Mini with lifetime could cost $100. Probably not, but the point is we don't know so there is no reason to get upset about it now.

Dan


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> I don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about the prospect of a service fee.


Because it sends a clear signal that this is not positioned as the accessory for a Premiere that makes a Premiere more desirable and competitive. It is just another product that has to provide enough profit on its own because they think they will be losing out on an additional Premiere sale.



> For all we know a Mini with lifetime could cost $100. Probably not, but the point is we don't know so there is no reason to get upset about it now.


We don't have to know the price to know the "attitude" or "flavor" of the offering. Combined with the ridiculous 4 tuner requirement, it is obvious that people like me are being shut out. It also doesn't help that TiVo is dragging this out forever.


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## jano18

I want a mini so I don't have to pay Comcast $89.40 a year for the discounted additional outlet fee to use the TiVo in my bedroom. If they charge $100 for lifetime it would be almost a wash for me after a year if it is $200 then 2 years, etc. To not have a subscription fee would be great, but we all should have known that would never happen. Once the dynamic tuner allocation is released it will make more sense to prospective buyers. Having to sacrifice a tuner on my XL4 will suck until this is a reality or a six tuner is released. I just hope they release it within the next couple months.


----------



## jano18

My guess is they will charge half the subscription price for the Mini, $7.50 a month or $250 for lifetime. If you are a current subscriber they will give you a 20% discount on the lifetime fee or $200. My guess on the hardware cost would be similar to the Stream $130-$150. So I think their marketing pitch will be the cost savings of the Mini with their discounted subscription & the cost savings of not having to pay your provider for additional outlets, cable cards &/or tuning adapters. If I wasn't being charged monthly by Comcast for an outlet fee, I'd just keep my 2 tuner Premiere w/PLS & not sacrifice anything. I just hate paying Comcast anymore money that I will never see again. At least with a TiVo with PLS you can recoup most of your expenses if you decide to part ways.


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## jmpage2

$350-$400 for a box with no tuner, no hard drive, that does nothing but play back TiVo recordings in another room and allow for the theft of a tuner from the main TiVo? A box that won't have as many online premium services as a $50 Roku?

If they do that they are idiots.


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## Dan203

jmpage2 said:


> $350-$400 for a box with no tuner, no hard drive, that does nothing but play back TiVo recordings in another room and allow for the theft of a tuner from the main TiVo? A box that won't have as many online premium services as a $50 Roku?
> 
> If they do that they are idiots.


I'm betting it's gonna be more like $250-$300 with lifetime. He may be right on the prices for the service fees but I'm betting the initial hardware price is lower. For the Stream there is no fee so they have to make money on the hardware. If they treat the Mini like a regular TiVo then they will subsidize the hardware and make up the money on the subscription. You can get a full blown Premiere for $100 from Amazon. If they charge more then that for a Mini then it will be DOA.

Dan


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## jmpage2

We will see (at this rate in July).


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## jano18

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting it's gonna be more like $250-$300 with lifetime. He may be right on the prices for the service fees but I'm betting the initial hardware price is lower. For the Stream there is no fee so they have to make money on the hardware. If they treat the Mini like a regular TiVo then they will subsidize the hardware and make up the money on the subscription. You can get a full blown Premiere for $100 from Amazon. If they charge more then that for a Mini then it will be DOA.
> 
> Dan


I hope that they will charge somewhere between $50-$100 for the hardware, that will definitely make it more worth it to ditch my 2 tuner. Especially since I only paid $60 for a brand new 320GB Premiere during their last sale. I am looking at the long terms savings of the Mini plus PLS & being able to recoup most of what I spent on my Premiere. I originally thought like most how can they charge a subscription fee for a device that is borrowing from a device I already paid a subscription for? But I get it, all of the other providers don't give you companion boxes for free. You may get a promo deal but you will be paying for them one way or another or sooner than later.


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## CoxInPHX

I'm betting $250-$300 w/ Lifetime, $150-$200 when purchased with a new Premiere 4 or XL4 Bundle


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## moyekj

For anything over $200 w/ Lifetime I won't be jumping on it anytime soon (and I'm guessing initial price will be >= $250 w/Lifetime). Let others debug all the issues and wait for about 6 months or so for the price to drop to ~ $150 range. I've got a lifetime S3 OLED I could sell and apply money towards Lifetime for an unsubbed Premiere unit I have lying around that seems like a better option if Mini is priced that high. Even without cablecard a real Premiere unit could still do everything and more than a Mini with no monthly fees to cable company.


----------



## jano18

moyekj said:


> For anything over $200 w/ Lifetime I won't be jumping on it anytime soon (and I'm guessing initial price will be >= $250 w/Lifetime). Let others debug all the issues and wait for about 6 months or so for the price to drop to ~ $150 range. I've got a lifetime S3 OLED I could sell and apply money towards Lifetime for an unsubbed Premiere unit I have lying around that seems like a better option if Mini is priced that high. Even without cablecard a real Premiere unit could still do everything and more than a Mini with no monthly fees to cable company.


Comcast charges me $9.95 for an additional outlet for my second TiVo & gives me a $2.50 credit for customer owned equipment. Over time this will add up to hundreds of $ I'd rather not give them & never get back. That is the only reason I would even consider the Mini. Otherwise I only have $500 invested in my Premiere with PLS & a 3 year warranty. Not a big price difference between what we are projecting the Mini to cost with PLS.


----------



## crxssi

jano18 said:


> Comcast charges me $9.95 for an additional outlet for my second TiVo & gives me a $2.50 credit for customer owned equipment. Over time this will add up to hundreds of $ I'd rather not give them & never get back. That is the only reason I would even consider the Mini.


You don't HAVE to have your other Premiere connected to cable at all. You can stream anything you recorded from your main Premiere and pay $0 to Comcast right now and without a Mini.


----------



## DaveDFW

CoxInPHX said:


> I'm betting $250-$300 w/ Lifetime, $150-$200 when purchased with a new Premiere 4 or XL4 Bundle


That's way too much for a device that has fewer functions than a Roku which is priced under $100. If your prediction ends up being the price the Mini will be a spectacular flop.

It is irrelevant that Tivo believes they need to price this mythical streaming device sufficiently high to mitigate the potential loss of revenue from potential additional Tivo DVRs. What they will be truly accomplishing will be to encourage consumers who actually comparison shop to purchase other solutions and abandon Tivo at a faster rate.

"But the cable company DVRs aren't very good! You don't have another option!" That's what we constantly hear from the Tivo apologists. But you know what? Video delivered via cable is a dying industry and Tivo will continue to chase fewer and fewer customers. So what if the other DVRs are bad? If you don't like any of them, you can build an entertainment system that doesn't even require a traditional DVR.

Tivo continues to price its products in a vacuum oblivious of other entertainment devices' capabilities and costs. I've owned Tivos since 2000 and through years of buying their mediocre, half-finished products they've completely sapped my enthusiasm for anything they sell.


----------



## Dan203

crxssi said:


> You don't HAVE to have your other Premiere connected to cable at all. You can stream anything you recorded from your main Premiere and pay $0 to Comcast right now and without a Mini.


But he wouldn't be able to watch live TV, and that sounds like something that is important to him.

Dan


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## Dan203

DaveDFW said:


> That's way too much for a device that has fewer functions than a Roku which is priced under $100.


Apples and oranges. They are designed for two different purposes and have different hardware to reflect that. The Roku can not decode MPEG-2, the Mini will have to. It will also need a chip capable of running Adobe AIR so they don't have to redo the whole UI again. It's also suppose to have MoCa built in and maybe even act as a MoCa bridge (not sure if that has been confirmed yet or not) Not to mention the Roku is subsidized by the services that run on it.

That being said I bet the hardware costs are comparable. The difference will be the service. With a Roku you pay the service fees to the services you're using, like Hulu, Netflix, etc... With the Mini you'll be paying a similar service fee to TiVo to be able to stream from your other TiVos and access their guide data for searching, etc...

Dan


----------



## moyekj

Dan203 said:


> With the Mini you'll be paying a similar service fee to TiVo to be able to stream from your other TiVos and access their guide data for searching, etc...


 That argument I don't buy at all. The Mini is completely dependent on the host DVR for all content. We don't pay a "service" fee for the iPad & Android apps which also access guide listings after all. If TiVo uses that as justification for a service fee it's totally bogus. At the end of the day though as you have stated what really matters is the final price however TiVo decides to break it down. If the main justification for the Mini is to keep up with competitor Whole Home solutions then charging too much for the Mini won't help their cause though. They should at least have a great deal for XL4 + Mini bundle though even though that won't appease most in this forum.


----------



## Dan203

I guess that's true. The iPad app does access the same guide data for free. Hadn't thought about that. Honestly no one, other then the TiVo employees, really knows why they are charging a fee or how much that fee will be. Everything we're discussing here is pure speculation. The only reason we even "know" there is going to be a fee is because someone slipped up in an interview. That could end up being wrong for all we know. 

Dan


----------



## Philmatic

I'm just posting my guesstimate so I can come back and say I told you so:



> $129 for the hardware and either $6.95/month for service or $199 for lifetime.


----------



## Dan203

I agree with your service prices. However I'm going to guess the hardware is going to be $79

Dan


----------



## atmuscarella

moyekj said:


> That argument I don't buy at all. The Mini is completely dependent on the host DVR for all content. We don't pay a "service" fee for the iPad & Android apps which also access guide listings after all. If TiVo uses that as justification for a service fee it's totally bogus. At the end of the day though as you have stated what really matters is the final price however TiVo decides to break it down. If the main justification for the Mini is to keep up with competitor Whole Home solutions then charging too much for the Mini won't help their cause though. They should at least have a great deal for XL4 + Mini bundle though even though that won't appease most in this forum.


I agree on pricing all that matters is what the total ends up being. My guess is $250.

Regarding the mini it self, in another thread I posed the question:

It would be interesting to know what TiVo actually wants to happen with the mini.​
Well unless the people running TiVo are morons they are not spending money developing anything unless they believe it will make TiVo more profitable than not developing whatever it is they are developing.

So when it comes to the mini what is TiVo's vision for it enhancing their profits? I think you have hit on it exactly packaging it with DVRs to enhance or at least retain DVR sales.

If anyone really believes they developed the mini to sell it at a loss to existing customers - well I have some swamp land that will make a great investment for ya. Stand alone sales of the mini only make sense if those sales are profitable on their own. The deals will be packages with new DVRs like the recent Stream deals.


----------



## slowbiscuit

And then they will continue to piss off their existing customer base. This is what they are struggling with, price-wise (I think) - a good bundle deal for new DVR sales is a no-brainer but appeasing all the folks that already are into them for $7-800 or more (XL4/Elite with lifetime), it gets harder to price.


----------



## NotNowChief

Dan203 said:


> I'm betting it's gonna be more like $250-$300 with lifetime. He may be right on the prices for the service fees but I'm betting the initial hardware price is lower. For the Stream there is no fee so they have to make money on the hardware. If they treat the Mini like a regular TiVo then they will subsidize the hardware and make up the money on the subscription. You can get a full blown Premiere for $100 from Amazon. If they charge more then that for a Mini then it will be DOA.
> 
> Dan


I ABSOLUTELY *CANNOT WAIT* TO SEE HOW BAD TIVO IS GOING TO SHOOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT *IF* THEY EVER LAUNCH THIS THING WITH THOSE RIDICULOUS PRICES! Especially after the anticipation with which so many people are waiting.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE, A PREMIERE FROM AMAZON WITH FREE SHIPPING IS $99.99!

I am going to be hysterical after all the development and anticipation if this thing flops because of a silly pricing scheme.


----------



## k2ue

If there is *any* service fee fore the Mini it will be DOA.


----------



## atmuscarella

NotNowChief said:


> I ABSOLUTELY *CANNOT WAIT* TO SEE HOW BAD TIVO IS GOING TO SHOOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT *IF* THEY EVER LAUNCH THIS THING WITH THOSE RIDICULOUS PRICES! Especially after the anticipation with which so many people are waiting.
> 
> I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE, A PREMIERE FROM AMAZON WITH FREE SHIPPING IS $99.99!
> 
> I am going to be hysterical after all the development and anticipation if this thing flops because of a silly pricing scheme.


As others have said all that matters is total costs. Your $100 Premiere actually costs $500 with service, if stand alone minis come in at $250 with service that is a large enough savings form many people especially if they don't want to rent additional cable cards and 4 tuners is enough for them.

Also you are rating success as how many stand alone units they sell to existing customers. I don't think that is what TiVo is going for with the mini. I think it is all about packaging it with new DVRs.


----------



## aaronwt

I still hope they do a monthly option as low as $5 for the mini. I'm only paying $6.95 for my premiere right now so I would need the monthly price to be lower, then I would just do monthly and keep it on monthly indefinitely over paying something like $200 for lifetime. Since the Mini will be in a location that isn't used very often. 

My monthly Premiere from 2010 is still not at the break even point compared to if I had purchased lifetime. The breakeven point was 37.4 months(so I'll hit that in May or June this year) since lifetime cost $260 more at the time.(lifetime on my launch Premieres was $200 and the Premiere box with monthly was also $60 less than than the other Premiere boxes I purchased with Lifetime at launch)(I ended up selling all my other lifetime launch Premieres since my GF did not want to swap out her S3 boxes for Premieres and I sold four to cover the cost of my Lifetime Elites)


----------



## steve614

If there's going to be a subcription fee for this thing, There's no way it should cost more than $100. It should be more like $75. That falls under the current price for a new Premiere which is $150 if bought from TiVo. 
It should also incur a lower monthly fee, no more than half of what a DVR costs. The $6.95 rate would fall in line with that provided that the Mini includes on board guide data.
$250 w/ lifetime.
With the Mini, you basically have half a Premiere - it should be half the cost.


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## jrtroo

Careful- you should be claiming it should be half of the retail price. We don't know if it will be half the cost to tivo, as Tivo may price in a bit of lost revenue from the failure to sell a premiere instead.

I'm mostly eager to get rid of the expensive Comcast cablecard. For me, a high retail price may still behoove a purchase.


----------



## mr_smits

My next Tivo purchase will be the rumored 6 tuner model that may have Stream capabilities built in and hopefully has Android support by that time. When that Tivo is released to retail customers, I will also buy 2 or 3 Minis if it is $250 or less with lifetime. I want a whole house system, and this would meet my needs.


----------



## L David Matheny

k2ue said:


> If there is *any* service fee fore the Mini it will be DOA.


I agree with you in principle. But if TiVo wants to offer some kind of bogus monthly fee for people who expect that for some reason, I guess there's no harm in that. It's the bottom line that counts. I think a reasonable price would be $80 fully paid (including lifetime "service") or $30 subsidized plus $5/month "service" fee with a minimum commitment of a year.

There's really no rationale for a monthly fee because TiVo has no ongoing costs associated with use of a Mini. All the ongoing costs are for providing service to the Premiere unit(s) which the Mini accesses. Eventually a Mini shouldn't even be required, since newer TVs should have streaming capability built in. If TiVo refuses to allow streaming to such TVs, they will eventually be forced out of business by competitors who can keep up with the times.


----------



## mr_smits

L David Matheny said:


> There's really no rationale for a monthly fee because TiVo has no ongoing costs associated with use of a Mini.


That's like saying text messages should be free since it costs almost nothing to provide them. Do cell phone companies give free text messages? Of course not. They make something like 7000% profit on individual text messages.

Companies charge what the market can take.


----------



## atmuscarella

jrtroo said:


> Careful- you should be claiming it should be half of the retail price. We don't know if it will be half the cost to tivo, as Tivo may price in a bit of lost revenue from the failure to sell a premiere instead.
> 
> I'm mostly eager to get rid of the expensive Comcast cablecard. For me, a high retail price may still behoove a purchase.


I think TiVo has a play to be made with the 2 tuner Premieres. Once the mini is functional it should be relatively easy to have a 2 tuner Premiere have all the same functionality. Primarily the ability to use a tuner from the 4 tuner Premieres. This would allow people to use Premieres in the same way they would be using a mini and save the cable card and/or outlet fees, with the additional option of using the Premiere with OTA thus adding tuners without the those same cable card and/or outlet fees. It will be interesting to see what TiVo does.


----------



## L David Matheny

mr_smits said:


> That's like saying text messages should be free since it costs almost nothing to provide them. Do cell phone companies give free text messages? Of course not. They make something like 7000% profit on individual text messages.
> 
> Companies charge what the market can take.


You're right about that; text message charges are essentially financial rape. A one-minute call probably costs the phone company 1000 times more than a text message. But phone companies have more monopoly market power to screw their customers than TiVo has. Then again, maybe that's why TiVo is getting into bed with the cable companies, who make the phone companies seem almost reasonable and benevolent by comparison. Once the cable companies get TiVo where they want them, they'll happily screw TiVo just like they screw their customers, of course.


----------



## atmuscarella

L David Matheny said:


> I agree with you in principle. But if TiVo wants to offer some kind of bogus monthly fee for people who expect that for some reason, I guess there's no harm in that. It's the bottom line that counts. I think a reasonable price would be $80 fully paid (including lifetime "service") or $30 subsidized plus $5/month "service" fee with a minimum commitment of a year.
> 
> There's really no rationale for a monthly fee because TiVo has no ongoing costs associated with use of a Mini. All the ongoing costs are for providing service to the Premiere unit(s) which the Mini accesses. Eventually a Mini shouldn't even be required, since newer TVs should have streaming capability built in. If TiVo refuses to allow streaming to such TVs, they will eventually be forced out of business by competitors who can keep up with the times.


I think I have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery than a mini with lifetime service being $80 (and I don't buy lottery tickets).

Regarding the "competition" well lets take a look at all the companies making Stand Alone Cable DVR appliances - Oh wait that didn't take long - there is only ONE company and it is TiVo.


----------



## L David Matheny

atmuscarella said:


> I think I have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery than a mini with lifetime service being $80 (and I don't buy lottery tickets).


You're probably right about that.



atmuscarella said:


> Regarding the "competition" well lets take a look at all the companies making Stand Alone Cable DVR appliances - Oh wait that didn't take long - there is only ONE company and it is TiVo.


TiVo currently has no real competition in the OTA market, but some people think they may abandon that to concentrate on the cable market, where there is (currently lame) competition. In any case, companies who think they have a lock on some market are often blindsided by something new. Smart companies are always looking over their shoulders and trying to improve.


----------



## atmuscarella

L David Matheny said:


> ...
> In any case, companies who think they have a lock on some market are often blindsided by something new. Smart companies are always looking over their shoulders and trying to improve.


I agree 100% - we know from the recent CNN Money article that TiVo spent 41% of revenue from the last 9 months on research and development, which seems pretty good. So hopefully they are spending it in away that keeps them moving forward.


----------



## slowbiscuit

That's the big question, and the jury is way out on that one. $88mil in R&D has gotten us what? A half-baked Stream, fixes to the Premiere that should have been done 2 years ago (and it will never be as fast as it should be because of Flash), and products that don't yet exist in the market. We'll have to see if the Mini and 6-tuner box ever deliver at retail, because right now it looks like a lot of money was spent but possibly more on the cable end than retail.


----------



## DaveDFW

slowbiscuit said:


> That's the big question, and the jury is way out on that one. $88mil in R&D has gotten us what? A half-baked Stream, fixes to the Premiere that should have been done 2 years ago (and it will never be as fast as it should be because of Flash), and products that don't yet exist in the market. We'll have to see if the Mini and 6-tuner box ever deliver at retail, because right now it looks like a lot of money was spent but possibly more on the cable end than retail.


What else has been bought with their R&D expenditures? Certainly no productive funds have been spent on the Elite/XL4 platform, which frequently loses all tuners rendering the devices useless as DVRs.


----------



## Digital Man

I would love for the Mini to be almost-free as much as the next guy, but for me the Mini will provide a valuable service that I would be willing to pay for as long as it's not too outrageous.

I bought my Premier XL4 in November to replace one of my two Comcast DVRs because Comcast doesn't offer a big enough hard drive in any of their DVRs for HDTV. Plus I have always wanted a Tivo but in the past it didn't do everything I needed (such as On Demand). I was aware of the Mini at the time and that factored into my buying decision. My plan is take a look at the Mini when it comes out and if it looks good I'll get one and replace my second Comcast DVR. This will reduce the money I give to Comcast and provide a huge benefit to me. That benefit is the ability to watch my Tivo recordings on either TV. We don't watch too much TV on that secondary TV, so it's a waste to pay for a full Comcast DVR on that TV.

I have always wanted a whole home DVR solution and am pleased with the XL4 plus Mini solution from what I know about it. It's exactly what I've been looking for and I don't have a problem paying for something like that.

DM


----------



## Jonathan_S

L David Matheny said:


> There's really no rationale for a monthly fee because TiVo has no ongoing costs associated with use of a Mini. All the ongoing costs are for providing service to the Premiere unit(s) which the Mini accesses. Eventually a Mini shouldn't even be required, since newer TVs should have streaming capability built in. If TiVo refuses to allow streaming to such TVs, they will eventually be forced out of business by competitors who can keep up with the times.


The one rational I saw someone here suggest, (unfortunatly I can't recall who), was that the monthly fee on the mini was because TiVo was trying to hit an out the door price point on a new 'whole home' bundle with a Premiere 4 + a couple TiVo Minis. To do that they might discount the Mini below cost (and recover the loss through an increaded monthly fee for the bundle).

For example:
Their current 3 TV whole home 'strategy' is to buy 3 Premieres: 3 x $149 out the door + service @ 3 x $14.99 -(2 x $2.00 MSD) -> $447 + $40.97/month

And right now a Premiere 4 is $249 and $14.99/month. So if they can get the Mini's down to even $75, they can cut fifty bucks off that out the door price and presumably still lower the total monthly payment significantly. (Even before you consider any potential savings from outlet or cablecard fees)

So as annoying as a service fee on them sounds I'm going to wait and see what the actual prices are before I get _too_ up in arms about it


----------



## button1066

NotNowChief said:


> I ABSOLUTELY *CANNOT WAIT* TO SEE HOW BAD TIVO IS GOING TO SHOOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT *IF* THEY EVER LAUNCH THIS THING WITH THOSE RIDICULOUS PRICES! Especially after the anticipation with which so many people are waiting.
> 
> I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE, A PREMIERE FROM AMAZON WITH FREE SHIPPING IS $99.99!
> 
> I am going to be hysterical after all the development and anticipation if this thing flops because of a silly pricing scheme.


It sounds like you are already getting hysterical.

A Premiere with lifetime for existing customers is around $500 ($100 for box + $399 for service). And that's with the cheap boxes that are normally $150.

Even if the Mini plus lifetime comes in at $250 it would be half what a Premiere costs. I sincerely doubt the price will be less than that and am expecting it to be more with total cost of $300.

Note: I can't even use a Mini since I don't have a four tuner TiVO so it is all moot to me. I don't get why people are so excited about it.


----------



## Dan203

NotNowChief said:


> I ABSOLUTELY *CANNOT WAIT* TO SEE HOW BAD TIVO IS GOING TO SHOOT ITSELF IN THE FOOT *IF* THEY EVER LAUNCH THIS THING WITH THOSE RIDICULOUS PRICES! Especially after the anticipation with which so many people are waiting.
> 
> I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE, A PREMIERE FROM AMAZON WITH FREE SHIPPING IS $99.99!
> 
> I am going to be hysterical after all the development and anticipation if this thing flops because of a silly pricing scheme.


I don't think the anticipation is as high as you think. I bet the vast majority of TiVo owners don't even know the Mini is in the works, let alone have an opinion on how much it should cost. This forum is a microcosm of opinionated enthusiast. While you may be right that it flops due to price I don't think there is going to be as big of a sigh of disappointment as you may think.

Dan


----------



## mr_smits

Dan203 said:


> I bet the vast majority of TiVo owners don't even know the Mini is in the works, let alone have an opinion on how much it should cost.


True and good luck explaining the difference between Tivo to Tivo streaming, streaming video from Netflix, streaming content from a Tivo Stream to an Apple device, and streaming (sharing?) with a Mini with a 4 tuner Tivo box.

I think Tivo has painted themselves into a corner with all the streaming talk with arbitrary limitations every extension of the standard Tivo box. It's no longer just easy--it's a confusing nightmare that I could not imagine explaining to parent/grandparent/non-technology person. Hopefully, Tivo will head back to making tv EASY to use.


----------



## Dan203

I think these are all small, proof of concept, steps toward an ultimate goal. The ultimate goal being a unit with 6 tuners that has the Stream's abilities built in, support for multiple Mini's spread around the house, and a user profile system where multiple people can use the same TiVo with custom SPs, My Shows, etc...

Dan


----------



## crxssi

Dan203 said:


> But he wouldn't be able to watch live TV, and that sounds like something that is important to him.


I didn't get that flavor/impression from his posting, but that is true... one would lose live TV. I don't remember what live TV is, or why someone would want it, though.


----------



## Dan203

I haven't watched live TV in over 10 years, but for some people it's still important.

Dan


----------



## crxssi

atmuscarella said:


> Regarding the "competition" well lets take a look at all the companies making Stand Alone Cable DVR appliances - Oh wait that didn't take long - there is only ONE company and it is TiVo.


But TiVo's competition isn't only from "Stand Alone Cable DVR appliances". They are also competing with MS-Windows home media center and the Home Run devices on the DVR+cable and streaming side, and countless cheap devices on the streaming-only side.

And their biggest competition are cable company provided boxes, which continue to get better and better and cheaper and more functional all the time.

Plus if they are not careful, someone could come in and blow them away with something radically better in the stand-alone market. There are still incentives for TiVo to continue to innovate, add features, improve the platform, and keep prices reasonable.


----------



## atmuscarella

crxssi said:


> But TiVo's competition isn't only from "Stand Alone Cable DVR appliances". They are also competing with MS-Windows home media center and the Home Run devices on the DVR+cable and streaming side, and countless cheap devices on the streaming-only side.


Tivo competes with what you mention like a motorcycle compete with a car. The streaming features while useful in marketing are really becoming irrelevant everything does it and no one is going to pay for a DVR unless they want a DVR getting streaming other places is too easy and to cheap. While HTPCs and HD Home Run tuners are great (and I have one) it is an even smaller niche market than the one for a stand alone DVR appliance. While I like my HTPC just fine it has all the same issues as Tivo, plus all the issues of a PC, and no support. not what very many people are looking.


crxssi said:


> And their biggest competition are cable company provided boxes, which continue to get better and better and cheaper and more functional all the time.


They may cost less in some place but here with TWC their DVR costs $20/mo more than a cable card so it takes less than 3 years for a Premiere with lifetime to be cheaper. In any event I do agree that cable DVRs are the number one alternative to a Tivo and I don't know how Tivo really competes with them.


crxssi said:


> Plus if they are not careful, someone could come in and blow them away with something radically better in the stand-alone market. There are still incentives for TiVo to continue to innovate, add features, improve the platform, and keep prices reasonable.


I hope so but I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## Arcady

Dan203 said:


> I haven't watched live TV in over 10 years, but for some people it's still important.
> 
> Dan


People who live in places with things like WEATHER need to know what is going on, LIVE. Don't blame us because you moved to the first place where all life will die when the power goes out.


----------



## innocentfreak

Arcady said:


> People who live in places with things like WEATHER need to know what is going on, LIVE. Don't blame us because you moved to the first place where all life will die when the power goes out.


Amazingly enough my tablet and cell phone get weather alerts.


----------



## Arcady

innocentfreak said:


> Amazingly enough my tablet and cell phone get weather alerts.


Really? Wow, that's amazing. I never heard of that.

Sorry, but the internet dies before live TV when the weather is bad. The cellphone signal dies before live TV. The TiVo on a UPS keeps working.


----------



## innocentfreak

Arcady said:


> Really? Wow, that's amazing. I never heard of that.
> 
> Sorry, but the internet dies before live TV when the weather is bad. The cellphone signal dies before live TV. The TiVo on a UPS keeps working.


Must be your crappy ISP.


----------



## jcthorne

innocentfreak said:


> Must be your crappy ISP.


No, obviously you have never lived through the aftermath of a hurricane or other large natural disaster. Cell phone and internet service die about 48 hrs after the power goes out because the standby generators at the cell towers and switching stations run out of fuel. Live tv and radio almost never go dead as they are considered lifeline services. Even POTS service goes out after extended power outages. We were somewhat luckey after Ike that water and gas services never did go down in our area. But they did in some. Power was out for 13 days. Cell and internet services were down for about 4 to 6 in there.


----------



## NotNowChief

mr_smits said:


> My next Tivo purchase will be the rumored 6 tuner model that may have Stream capabilities built in and hopefully has Android support by that time. When that Tivo is released to retail customers, I will also buy 2 or 3 Minis if it is $250 or less with lifetime. I want a whole house system, and this would meet my needs.


Realistically, it will be YEARS before you see that. YEARS.


----------



## morac

jcthorne said:


> No, obviously you have never lived through the aftermath of a hurricane or other large natural disaster. Cell phone and internet service die about 48 hrs after the power goes out because the standby generators at the cell towers and switching stations run out of fuel. Live tv and radio almost never go dead as they are considered lifeline services. Even POTS service goes out after extended power outages. We were somewhat luckey after Ike that water and gas services never did go down in our area. But they did in some. Power was out for 13 days. Cell and internet services were down for about 4 to 6 in there.


During Superstorm Sandy, the major talk/news radio station in NJ lost their transmitter because of power outages. They were only available over the Internet, because it requires a lot less electricity to stream over the Internet (can be done with batteries) as oppose to the 20,000 watts or so to broadcast over the air. Broadcasting TV takes even more power. The main reason TV was still available is because power wasn't lost in areas where TV transmits from.

Also areas that had no power still had cell service because cell service is considered very important so fuel was provided to generators. There were also roaming charging station trucks so people could charge their cell phones. Voice calls had problems going through, but texting and data worked well.


----------



## ohporter

mr_smits said:


> True and good luck explaining the difference between Tivo to Tivo streaming, streaming video from Netflix, streaming content from a Tivo Stream to an Apple device, and streaming (sharing?) with a Mini with a 4 tuner Tivo box.
> 
> I think Tivo has painted themselves into a corner with all the streaming talk with arbitrary limitations every extension of the standard Tivo box. It's no longer just easy--it's a confusing nightmare that I could not imagine explaining to parent/grandparent/non-technology person. Hopefully, Tivo will head back to making tv EASY to use.


This reminds me of my major concern with the Mini (which we want for our secondary viewing bedroom location)...this model of dedicating a tuner for the Mini to get LiveTV. I find it hard to accept the notion of giving up one tuner permanently just so we can flip on the live broadcast of the local news occasionally. Having been a happy MythTV user with dynamic allocation of tuners for years, I'm not sure how TiVo can consider it acceptable in 2013 to release something that permanently allocates a tuner like that. I didn't believe it until I read their description on tivo.com on how to enable that option on the Premiere 4


----------



## P42

ohporter said:


> Having been a happy MythTV user with dynamic allocation of tuners for years, I'm not sure how TiVo can consider it acceptable in 2013 to release something that permanently allocates a tuner like that.


Just because Tivo are doing this, does mean they fine it acceptable, it just means in the juggling act of what features get done in in the time frame available this feature is getting implemented in a half assed fashion. It works, the user gets to watch live TV, but the implementation leave a lot of room for improvement 

Personally I won't be buying a Mini, but only because we are a one TV household. If we were a multi TV household with a cable subscription I'd be watching its progress closely.


----------



## mr_smits

NotNowChief said:


> Realistically, it will be YEARS before you see that. YEARS.


That's fine if true. In the meantime, I have 2 Premieres with lifetime and an HD with lifetime -- 6 tuners -- so I'm not out any additional funds besides cablecards.

Most likely, I'll upgrade to the new Tivo when it is released. The other scenario is that I sell Tivos and jump ship to Dish with their Hopper/Joey DVR with Slingbox external streaming. The least likely scenario is a I cut the cord and care less about paid TV content.


----------



## jmpage2

Thread title should be changed to "TiVo Mini - possibly on life support at TiVo HQ"


----------



## DaveDFW

jmpage2 said:


> Thread title should be changed to "TiVo Mini - possibly on life support at TiVo HQ"


They're just withholding release until it is 100% bug free.


----------



## RichB

mr_smits said:


> Your reasoning really doesn't matter. The Mini will obviate the need for multiple Tivos in a household. Tivo will charge SOMETHING to make up for this loss.


I was thinking about buying two more Tivo's but decided against it.
How much do I owe them 

- Rich


----------



## RichB

moyekj said:


> That argument I don't buy at all. The Mini is completely dependent on the host DVR for all content. We don't pay a "service" fee for the iPad & Android apps which also access guide listings after all. If TiVo uses that as justification for a service fee it's totally bogus. At the end of the day though as you have stated what really matters is the final price however TiVo decides to break it down. If the main justification for the Mini is to keep up with competitor Whole Home solutions then charging too much for the Mini won't help their cause though. They should at least have a great deal for XL4 + Mini bundle though even though that won't appease most in this forum.


Hmm. So in my kithcen, I can put an IPAD on a speaker dock and I have a free end point.

I can put an Apple TV in my bedroom and display my shows with my IPAD.
All interesting no cost solutions since I have a Stream 

This is ironic since the TiVo advertises IPad as their whole house solution.

- Rich


----------



## davezatz

DaveDFW said:


> They're just withholding release until it is 100% bug free.


Nah, until it's 85% bug free and they figure out how to price it.


----------



## Arcady

RichB said:


> I can put an Apple TV in my bedroom and display my shows with my IPAD.


You can't send video from the iPad to the Apple TV when running the TiVo app.


----------



## RichB

Arcady said:


> You can't send video from the iPad to the Apple TV when running the TiVo app.


I wonder why.

All stick no carrot.

- Rich


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## marktaylor22

wow! can't wait to get mine!


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## jmpage2

marktaylor22 said:


> wow! can't wait to get mine!


You'll be waiting a while.


----------



## MichaelK

mr_smits said:


> That's like saying text messages should be free since it costs almost nothing to provide them. Do cell phone companies give free text messages? Of course not. They make something like 7000% profit on individual text messages.
> 
> Companies charge what the market can take.


bingo!

But I'd clarify that really it's more like companies charge what they BELIEVE will maximize their profits and none of that is in a vacuum (unless they are stupid). So could be many things at play here.

Some spectulation that Tivo wants the product itself to make money, break even, or not cost additional premier add ons.

Myself, I think the hypothesis that much of it is related to trying not to piss off their cable company partners makes the most sense. When i read all the different theories and thoughts that one seems to make the most sense to me (again that and 2 bucks gets you a cup of coffee.)

They don't really value the stand alones (and sadly for us it makes sense since after all these years we haven't made them filthy rich). They currently think being in bed with pay tv providers is the way to go. So they'll sacrifice us in order to keep cable/pay tv happy.

I wish they would price it like an accessory to a premiere in the hopes of making the premiere more valuable in retail but that doesn't sound like it's in the cards at the moment- sadly...


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> I think these are all small, proof of concept, steps toward an ultimate goal. The ultimate goal being a unit with 6 tuners that has the Stream's abilities built in, support for multiple Mini's spread around the house, and a user profile system where multiple people can use the same TiVo with custom SPs, My Shows, etc...
> 
> Dan


Dan, i believe you are a very generous person. I too would agree about your end game. But I would not call it a "proof of concept"- that i think is really kind of you to give them such a huge benefit of the doubt.

I'd call the current steps just a really slow, almost too late, hacked together, confusing attempt to achieve a vision they have likely had for probably 15 years now.

If they were on the ball they would have been there already 3 years ago and would have dominated the world of TV and it would be Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, and TIVO in the epic battle for world domination (OK maybe I'm getting a little crazy with all that... lol)

I seem to remember discussion from tivo themselves around the series 1 about how all along they intended a whole home solution and that's why they had even spent time developing and wound up including the stuff for the series one to move files back ON to the tivo's, i think there was even an interview with one of the founders about how a big multituner box was always the intent but the components were just so not ready back then so they were forced to go single tuner at each tv. Then came along the series 2 and it was a magical and was a 'modular platform" to allow all sorts of things with the potential for many tuners. That never panned out never getting past 2 tuners in the Directivos and the S2DT models (which was another hilarious - we better catch up to everyone else moment- since it had a use for such a short time the digital transition basically made it worthless to most). The S3 seems was really just a stop gap holding pattern for a couple years to deal with HD since nothing came of that whole platform that- still just 2 tuners like they had 7 years prior way back in 1999/2000 on the S1 directivos. Then came along the S4 3 years ago they showed the screen shots with the user profile system around the time of the premiere launch. So all along they have been aiming this way but just never got here (still not even yet...)

So I dont think it's a proof of concept but more they realize that others are now very close to achieving their vision from the late 1990's while they themselves are (as always) late to the game. They still don't have their ducks in a row (hec they can't even finish off the SD screens on the premieres)- so they're going to used all this hacked together, half completed/baked stuff. (based on where i think they would admit they should be if you got them off the record).

If i were being less pessimistic, I might say they have a mythical series 5 right around the corner- maybe next year- that will complete the big picture with a true "one box" that does it all. But they're behind on that too so they have to bandaid things right now (even months and months late) and come up with all these add ons to duct tape to the existing hardware to hold people over till they finally can get the S5 out the door. But even that's hard to imagine since at this point the mini/s4/stream combo will only be alive and in the wild for a matter of months if the S5 were to be launched early next year- so why even bother it if the S5 (maybe based on the pace hardware?) is coming out just a few months more- and you could release the entire dream all at once. It's not like they haven't just delayed things previously for months and months or even several years- so why not just put it all on hold now till the end game is complete next year (if it's in fact that close?)

a whole lot of rhetorical questions and blah blah above- bottom line you are a good and generous man!


----------



## Philmatic

Anyone notice the homepage of tivo.com changed drastically recently? They are still touting "multiple premieres" for multi-room support, but they are displaying a laptop with the familiar TiVo seek interface. Windows/Desktop app refresh? Also could be a bad photoshop with no relation to reality.

http://www.tivo.com/


----------



## RichB

^^ The hompage shows a TiVo Mini.

- Rich


----------



## Philmatic

RichB said:


> ^^ The hompage shows a TiVo Mini.
> 
> - Rich


Good catch, even though the caption still talks of multiple TiVo Premieres:



> With multiple TiVo Premieres, you can start a show in your living room and finish it in your bedroom.
> 
> You can have one TiVo experience on all the TVs in your house.


----------



## teklock

I keep hearing this argument whether or not the mini will be subscription based. According to this video, it clearly indicates it will be a paid service and theyre even going to have a lifetime subscription for the Mini.

engadget.cXm/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


----------



## aaronwt

I just wish TiVo would just hurry up and release the Mini. And while they're at it, enable Android support for the Stream too. I've got some Best Buy gift cards set aside to purchase the Mini and Stream.


----------



## DaveDFW

teklock said:


> I keep hearing this argument whether or not the mini will be subscription based.


No one is arguing that the Tivo representative did not state that. But a person paid to demonstrate a product at a trade show making a statement does not necessarily make that statement authoritative.

However, most of the arguments here center around whether such a subscription fee is warranted, and assuming a fee will be required what would a reasonable price be.


----------



## Dan203

Philmatic said:


> they are displaying a laptop with the familiar TiVo seek interface. Windows/Desktop app refresh? Also could be a bad photoshop with no relation to reality.


That would be nice. TiVo Desktop is way old and sorely in need of an overhaul.


----------



## davezatz

Suddenlink tells me the TiVo Mini is now available to most of their customers. The month lease fees runs $6-$11 depending on region (and package/bundle?).


----------



## TivoQueensDad

davezatz said:


> Suddenlink tells me the TiVo Mini is now available to most of their customers. The month lease fees runs $6-$11 depending on region (and package/bundle?).


They are advertising it on their website -->
http://www.suddenlink.com/anyroom/

Cable companies have made a fortune off of "outlet" fees which is what this effectively is. Kind of like the phone companies charging for texting - no / little cost to them and a pure profit.

For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....

I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.


----------



## tatergator1

In the past, when I would run numbers on the break even points of the various Tivo's with lifetime compared to the monthly fee of a similar box from the cable co., the break even for a box plus discounted PLS was always in the range of 24-30 months. Taking the mid point of the Suddenlink pricing range, or $8.50 per month and the average break-even point, I would guess the One-Time fee price of the retail Mini will be $225 to $250. Maybe that translates to $75 box + $6.95 monthly.


----------



## TivoQueensDad

TivoQueensDad said:


> They are advertising it on their website -->
> http://www.suddenlink.com/anyroom/
> 
> Cable companies have made a fortune off of "outlet" fees which is what this effectively is. Kind of like the phone companies charging for texting - no / little cost to them and a pure profit.
> 
> For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....
> 
> I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.


Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Television/Documents/Mini_QuickGuide_r1.pdf

Sounds like they may have solved the_ borrowing a tuner issue_ -->

_Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
TVs  anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
picks a show or channel to display; and it tunes to it. Your
TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
borrows a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.​_


----------



## Philmatic

Interesting!


----------



## Loach

TivoQueensDad said:


> Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Television/Documents/Mini_QuickGuide_r1.pdf
> 
> Sounds like they may have solved the_ borrowing a tuner issue_ -->
> 
> _Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
> TVs  anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
> lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
> picks a show or channel to display; and it tunes to it. Your
> TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
> want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
> borrows a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
> the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.​_


It sort of sounds like dynamic "borrowing" - but I doubt that is what it really means.


----------



## TivoQueensDad

tatergator1 said:


> In the past, when I would run numbers on the break even points of the various Tivo's with lifetime compared to the monthly fee of a similar box from the cable co., the break even for a box plus discounted PLS was always in the range of 24-30 months. Taking the mid point of the Suddenlink pricing range, or $8.50 per month and the average break-even point, I would guess the One-Time fee price of the retail Mini will be $225 to $250. Maybe that translates to $75 box + $6.95 monthly.


I run a comparison every year between cable / satellite TV...Put it all in a spreadsheet with current price for cable (internet and phone) vs equivalent service with DirecTV or DISH....Then I call my cable company and make a deal. This year, they didn't give a great price, but I stayed hoping I'd be able to upgrade to Tivo....Given a high cost for a mini, I expect cable plus Tivo plus Tivo mini won't be cost competitive to satellite - and both DISH and DirecTV have pretty nice DVR offerings (both whole home, built in Slingbox for DISH, auto-record of all 4 networks prime-time on DISH, 6 tuner or DirecTV) with no initial outlay.


----------



## Tony Chick

Your installer will set up the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini."

That doesn't exactly sound dynamic, unless the installer is going to move in with you


----------



## sbiller

TivoQueensDad said:


> Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Television/Documents/Mini_QuickGuide_r1.pdf
> 
> Sounds like they may have solved the_ borrowing a tuner issue_ -->
> 
> _Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
> TVs  anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
> lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
> picks a show or channel to display; and it tunes to it. Your
> TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
> want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
> borrows a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
> the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.​_


I think this could be interpreted in multiple ways. I think the comment about the installer setting it up to "borrow" a tuner means that the tuner will be dedicated to one or more Mini's in the home.


----------



## DaveDFW

sbiller said:


> I think this could be interpreted in multiple ways. I think the comment about the installer setting it up to "borrow" a tuner means that the tuner will be dedicated to one or more Mini's in the home.


I agree. "Borrow" in this context is probably a euphemism for "permanently borrow" until Tivo gets around to implementing dynamic tuner allocation.


----------



## innocentfreak

TivoQueensDad said:


> For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....
> 
> I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.


I don't think a $6 fee is that insane especially coming from a cable company. DTAs usually lease for a couple dollars at least and they only let you see live TV.

I also don't think you can compare streaming to your phone or tablet since neither of those require hardware. If you could do it without the Mini, they would have a difficult time charging since as you said the rest is already given away for free.

Of course with the some of the Android devices out there with might see that ability added to the home, but you would still need to buy the hardware.


----------



## sbiller

innocentfreak said:


> I don't think a $6 fee is that insane especially coming from a cable company. DTAs usually lease for a couple dollars at least and they only let you see live TV.
> 
> I also don't think you can compare streaming to your phone or tablet since neither of those require hardware. If you could do it without the Mini, they would have a difficult time charging since as you said the rest is already given away for free.
> 
> Of course with the some of the Android devices out there with might see that ability added to the home, but you would still need to buy the hardware.


DTAs on Verizon FiOS are 6.99/mo.


----------



## DaveDFW

Doesn't Suddenlink lease Streams to its customers for around $10 per month? 

If both the Stream and Mini can be leased for the same amount, shouldn't that translate to similar pricing of the two products at retail?


----------



## Dan203

While the Stream is great for watching shows on my iPad it's not really the same experience as watching a show via MRS. The only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip and every press takes a couple seconds to register and start playing again, so skipping past commercials or backing up to hear what someone said is not quite as fluid as it is when streaming via MRS.

TiVo may decide to support the Stream on other devices some day (i.e. Roku, Google TV, etc...) but even if they do it wont be the same experience as having a real Mini. The Mini will be more like an extension of the primary TiVo. As close to sitting in front of the TiVo as you can get while streaming over a network. I think in most cases people will still prefer the Mini except perhaps those that are really hung up on saving a few bucks.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> While the Stream is great for watching shows on my iPad it's not really the same experience as watching a show via MRS. The only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip and every press takes a couple seconds to register and start playing again, so skipping past commercials or backing up to hear what someone said is not quite as fluid as it is when streaming via MRS.
> 
> TiVo may decide to support the Stream on other devices some day (i.e. Roku, Google TV, etc...) but even if they do it wont be the same experience as having a real Mini. The Mini will be more like an extension of the primary TiVo. As close to sitting in front of the TiVo as you can get while streaming over a network. I think in most cases people will still prefer the Mini except perhaps those that are really hung up on saving a few bucks.


Very true. I see the use case for a Roku or Smart TV app as a way to stream TiVo shows to a television in a room that isn't used that often. In my case, my daughters room. She's away at college so her TV goes used on weekend visits or during the summer. Presently, that Tv is Roku-only.


----------



## Philmatic

I don't think they will ever support the use of a TiVo Stream outside the Tablet/Phone/PC environment. In their mind, why would they sell you a product that cannibalizes the sale of a product that they are offering (Mini). If you have a TV to hook up to, buy a Mini, if you are using it on some other device that you take with you, buy a Stream.


----------



## sbiller

Philmatic said:


> I don't think they will ever support the use of a TiVo Stream outside the Tablet/Phone/PC environment. In their mind, why would they sell you a product that cannibalizes the sale of a product that they are offering (Mini). If you have a TV to hook up to, buy a Mini, if you are using it on some other device that you take with you, buy a Stream.


TiVo is deploying a soft-TiVo solution to Com Hem later this year that will work on Smart TVs. The purpose of the Mini is to reduce churn and gain new subscribers. A TiVo App on a Smart TV or Roku would support the same goal.


----------



## NotNowChief

sbiller said:


> TiVo is deploying a soft-TiVo solution to Com Hem later this year that will work on Smart TVs. The purpose of the Mini is to reduce churn and gain new subscribers. A TiVo App on a Smart TV or Roku would support the same goal.


This is just ridiculous and insulting. You'd think before implementing MORE new things, they would iron out all their pending stuff first, like Android support for the Stream, and the Mini.


----------



## Dan203

You seem to think that TiVo is only capable of working on one thing at a time. That's a bad assumption. I did some work for TiVo once. The only in house development they did was for the primary product. Everything else was farmed out to 3rd parties, like me, because there isn't enough work for them to employ a full time staff of specialized developers. The Mini is likely being worked on by the in house team, but Android support, Roku support, etc... would likely all be farmed out to 3rd party development firms.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> The only in house development they did was for the primary product. Everything else was farmed out to 3rd parties, like me, because there isn't enough work for them to employ a full time staff of specialized developers. The Mini is likely being worked on by the in house team, but Android support, Roku support, etc... would likely all be farmed out to 3rd party development firms.


Which is also why various TiVo products stagnate and die without a dedicated development team. The Rhapsody app and TiVo Desktop come to mind.


----------



## sbiller

I'm fairly optimistic regarding what we'll see from TiVo this year. The company has been investing over $100 million / year. Until recently, a significant portion of that was focused on plumbing/infrastructure.


----------



## Philmatic

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/suddenlink-launches-tivo-mini/



> Unfortunately, according to this support note, dynamic tuner allocation hasn't yet been enabled and each TiVo Mini permanently locks up one of the hub DVR's four tuners, with a maximum of two client Minis virtually hanging off a single 4-tuner Premiere. In fact, we have it on good authority that at least one TiVo partner will not move forward with a TiVo Mini deployment until a more flexible configuration is provided. Related, much of the industry is moving to a 6-tuner configuration - as we've seen from Cox and Verizon FiOS. So perhaps that 6-tuner Pace DVR displayed in TiVo's Cable Show booth will further provide a more robust whole-home solution in the near future.


----------



## davezatz

Philmatic said:


> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395


Yeah, it says "*dedicate*" a tuner and "One to two tuners are *allocated* for use by the TiVo Mini". The note was updated 2/1/13.


----------



## jjd_87

I have a Premiere 4 and have SL for my cable. I'd love to think that I could call up and rent just the Mini for a few months until it comes out for retail customers. But they had a hard enough time just putting my cable card in I'm not about to deal with that headache again.


----------



## sbiller

jjd_87 said:


> I have a Premiere 4 and have SL for my cable. I'd love to think that I could call up and rent just the Mini for a few months until it comes out for retail customers. But they had a hard enough time just putting my cable card in I'm not about to deal with that headache again.


I suspect they would install a Premiere-Q with a Mini and enable the communication between the two boxes via MoCA. I doubt SL would install a Mini without your purchase of a whole home package that includes the Q. It would be interesting to find out the requirements... The nice side-effect of it all is they would ensure that MoCA is working in your home, install the PoE filter, change splitters to higher band-pass filters, etc.


----------



## aaronwt

So are we possibly getting close to an announcement for release of the Mini at retail?

I really just want a Mini so I can put it in my bedroom where I rarely watch TV and move the monthly Premiere that is currently in the bedroom to a location that makes it easier for me to disconnect and connect everything. Since that is the box I take with me to my GFs house for us to watch shows from.


----------



## zubinh

These people have had sooooooo much time since we saw the first prototype of a Mini, they've received sooooooooo much money from patent litigation since then and they finally release it without dynamic tuner allocation??? Are u kidding me?! They release a stream without Android support, Premier menus are still not 100% HD and now this? Why o why does this company do everything half baked????


----------



## jrtroo

Seems fully baked to me. They are just not putting on all of the fancy icing with sprinkles right away.


----------



## Dan203

zubinh said:


> These people have had sooooooo much time since we saw the first prototype of a Mini, they've received sooooooooo much money from patent litigation since then and they finally release it without dynamic tuner allocation??? Are u kidding me?! They release a stream without Android support, Premier menus are still not 100% HD and now this? Why o why does this company do everything half baked????


We already knew it was coming without dynamic tuner allocation. Why are you acting so surprised? Perhaps the reason they delayed the retail release is because they want to get that done first.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> We already knew it was coming without dynamic tuner allocation. Why are you acting so surprised? Perhaps the reason they delayed the retail release is because they want to get that done first.


Exactly... the big question in my mind is will they soft launch it to retail *without * DTA.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.lightreading.com/tv/allegiance-to-close-kansas-systems/240148162


----------



## Dan203

sbiller said:


> Exactly... the big question in my mind is will they soft launch it to retail *without * DTA.


I'm going to guess no. Seems like it would cause confusion if they did. But who knows. Probably depends on the scheduling and how quickly they can get DTA done.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> I'm going to guess no. Seems like it would cause confusion if they did. But who knows. Probably depends on the scheduling and how quickly they can get DTA done.


I think they could soft-launch it versus a full retail push (i.e., available only through tivo.com, verify that the purchaser already has an XL4 or Premiere 4 on their account, ...).

I agree that the DTA schedule is probably key and TiVo hasn't telegraphed anything publicly as to a retail schedule for the Mini.


----------



## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> Since that is the box I take with me to my GFs house for us to watch shows from.


If you are lugging around Tivos, it sounds like you need Slingbox functionality.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Dan203 said:


> We already knew it was coming without dynamic tuner allocation. Why are you acting so surprised?


It's way more of the usual face palm than it is anything of a surprise coming from them.


----------



## aaronwt

mr_smits said:


> If you are lugging around Tivos, it sounds like you need Slingbox functionality.


I do have a Slingbox. If I could ever convince my GF to get FiOS(or even Comcast) I would be doing backflips. But she refuses to get rid of her 1.25Mb/s DSL connection. She had a chance to get FiOS with a slow 3/1 connection and pay less than she does now(with low pricing for life for phone and internet), but she didn't jump on it so now that excellent deal is over.

before the Premiere I used to copy the content to a hard drive and play the content back from a media player. Which worked fine but was more of a pain transferring the content each week. Since the Premiere is smaller than the S3 it made it easier to carry. So I have a remote, power cord, HDMi cable, and wireless adpater at her house so I just need to bring the box.

That ended up being the easiest solution in the end. And has worked well for me. But if she had a normal 15mb/s or higher connection, I would just keep a Boxee Box at her house and use the SlingBox app to watch content from home.


----------



## P42

sbiller said:


> http://www.lightreading.com/tv/allegiance-to-close-kansas-systems/240148162


Funny...they are just quoting Zatznotfunny


----------



## swerver

TivoQueensDad said:


> Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Television/Documents/Mini_QuickGuide_r1.pdf


A picture in that manual shows the Find Movies menu with just VOD and Youtube options. I hope this does not mean there won't be netflix or amazon? I thought they would all be there.


----------



## tatergator1

Suddenlink does not allow Netflix or Hulu Plus to begin with; there's some text on the website mentioning that offering those options would conflict with existing contracts with other content providers. Don't read too much into that picture.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> Exactly... the big question in my mind is will they soft launch it to retail *without * DTA.





Dan203 said:


> I'm going to guess no. Seems like it would cause confusion if they did. But who knows. Probably depends on the scheduling and how quickly they can get DTA done.


Depending on where they are in development, I may end up being correct unfortunately that they might wait and release it at the same time as new hardware.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=500759


----------



## davezatz

tatergator1 said:


> Suddenlink does not allow Netflix or Hulu Plus to begin with; there's some text on the website mentioning that offering those options would conflict with existing contracts with other content providers. Don't read too much into that picture.


At CES I and someone else (Engadget?) was told not all apps would make it to the Mini. Which ones and why was not disclosed. Hm.


----------



## SnakeVargas

Is there an update yet on when Tivo mini will be available? I thought it was expected to be out already.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

SnakeVargas said:


> Is there an update yet on when Tivo mini will be available? I thought it was expected to be out already.


"Spring" as of a month ago.


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> You seem to think that TiVo is only capable of working on one thing at a time. That's a bad assumption. I did some work for TiVo once. The only in house development they did was for the primary product. Everything else was farmed out to 3rd parties, like me, because there isn't enough work for them to employ a full time staff of specialized developers. The Mini is likely being worked on by the in house team, but Android support, Roku support, etc... would likely all be farmed out to 3rd party development firms.


Technically it sure should be possible to develop simultaneously with outside help but it seems they only BUDGET for one thing at a time. As an example, they clearly could pay apple and android developers at the same time to develop apps. they choose not to. The pattern is too consistent - and seems to be that they pay for apple development then wait six months to pay an android developer to duplicate the apple app/upgrade/improvement on android. It makes no sense since neither app is pay- if you are developing an app to sell it makes complete sense to make ios first then take some of those profits to develop android. But tivo isn't selling anything so there's no point to not doing them concurrently.

Could also be they paid for an updated netflix app but not an amazon app. They developed tivo desktop for PC and then ignored the mac. They pay for developing one streaming audio player but not another. And on and on.

Thing is- if one watches all the various 3rd party developers they seem to be able to wip things out amazingly fast and for all not that much money- many give their work away for free. I'll completely admit that i know nothing about programming in the real world, but I've seen it time and again with palm, windows mobile, android, tivo apps, 3rd party apps for my home automation system, etc, etc, etc. In the scheme of things Tivo should be able to spend some hundreds of thousands or cultivate "hobbyists" and have the best "one box" on the planet. Just look at the various community alternatives to the steaming pile that is tivo desktop for examples.


----------



## aaronwt

"steaming pile"?? I've been using TiVo desktop for many years with excellent results. Even though I've used other options, I still prefer to use TiVo Desktop.


----------



## morac

I use TiVo Desktop, but it's performance is extremely poor. It takes several minutes to load and I have to close it once I start transferring because it freezes while transferring. TiVo Desktop is a goods example of how not to code software.


----------



## Dan203

I was actually approached once to rewrite TiVo Desktop. But I had just started working for VideoReDo and didn't have time to do it. Kind of figured they would have gotten someone to do it by now. (this was like 6 years ago)


----------



## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> Technically it sure should be possible to develop simultaneously with outside help but it seems they only BUDGET for one thing at a time. As an example, they clearly could pay apple and android developers at the same time to develop apps. they choose not to. The pattern is too consistent - and seems to be that they pay for apple development then wait six months to pay an android developer to duplicate the apple app/upgrade/improvement on android. It makes no sense since neither app is pay- if you are developing an app to sell it makes complete sense to make ios first then take some of those profits to develop android. But tivo isn't selling anything so there's no point to not doing them concurrently.


This makes perfect sense. If they have a certain yearly budget for free apps then it seems perfect to offset development of the two apps by 6 months. iOS gets priority because it was first and because it's still the most popular for tablets. Plus for the technology used in the Stream the install base was a LOT bigger. The Stream uses encrypted HLS which is supported on all iPads but only supported in Android 4.0+ which has only recently been used widely on Android tablets.

TiVo Desktop has always been the bastard child. However the main reason for the lag on Mac was because Macs don't have a simple video playback API like Windows DirectShow that TiVo could tap into for simple decryption and playback. So instead they tapped Roxio to create the Mac app. It just turned out to be a bit more expensive and clunky then people expected.


----------



## wkearney99

aaronwt said:


> "steaming pile"?? I've been using TiVo desktop for many years with excellent results. Even though I've used other options, I still prefer to use TiVo Desktop.


It 'sucks less' than a lot of other options but it's still a steaming pile. Yeah, I make use of it for easy downloading of kids TV shows and transcoding them into low-res versions for the playback on a phone. Works wonders for having a bunch of shows on-hand for playback on the TV in the boat. But it's pig, slow as hell and a bit of a UI nightmare. I just leave it running on a whole other machine that doesn't really do anything else.


----------



## aaronwt

morac said:


> I use TiVo Desktop, but it's performance is extremely poor. It takes several minutes to load and I have to close it once I start transferring because it freezes while transferring. TiVo Desktop is a goods example of how not to code software.


Something might be wrong with your install. My TiVo Desktop starts in seconds, not minutes. And I can be transferring from my three Premieres concurrently and it never freezes. Each box will be transferring to TiVo Desktop at around 75mb/s. I've never had any issues with it freezing. Even when I had more TiVos and I would transfer from six to eight boxes concurrently, TiVo Desktop kept chugging along without any issues.


----------



## compnurd

aaronwt said:


> Something might be wrong with your install. My TiVo Desktop starts in seconds, not minutes. And I can be transferring from my three Premieres concurrently and it never freezes. Each box will be transferring to TiVo Desktop at around 75mb/s. I've never had any issues with it freezing. Even when I had more TiVos and I would transfer from six to eight boxes concurrently, TiVo Desktop kept chugging along without any issues.


+1


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> Something might be wrong with your install. My TiVo Desktop starts in seconds, not minutes. And I can be transferring from my three Premieres concurrently and it never freezes. Each box will be transferring to TiVo Desktop at around 75mb/s. I've never had any issues with it freezing. Even when I had more TiVos and I would transfer from six to eight boxes concurrently, TiVo Desktop kept chugging along without any issues.


It's TiVo Desktop, not my install. I can get rid of the few minute start time, by clearing TiVo Desktop's thousands of cache files (why does it need that many for a dozen shows?), but they just regenerate after a few uses. The freezes happen because for what ever reason TiVo Desktop has the need to constantly refresh itself while transferring. This causes the UI to frequently become unresponsive until the transfer completes so I usually just start the transfer and shut down TiVo Desktop.


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> This makes perfect sense. If they have a certain yearly budget for free apps then it seems perfect to offset development of the two apps by 6 months. iOS gets priority because it was first and because it's still the most popular for tablets. Plus for the technology used in the Stream the install base was a LOT bigger. The Stream uses encrypted HLS which is supported on all iPads but only supported in Android 4.0+ which has only recently been used widely on Android tablets.
> 
> TiVo Desktop has always been the bastard child. However the main reason for the lag on Mac was because Macs don't have a simple video playback API like Windows DirectShow that TiVo could tap into for simple decryption and playback. So instead they tapped Roxio to create the Mac app. It just turned out to be a bit more expensive and clunky then people expected.


I hear what you are saying if you have a certain yearly budget and i wouldn't disagree- but my point is their budget for add-ons (or however to describe non-core development) seems to be insufficient to make a legit attempt at being the "one box" or even to "keep up with the jones's". When you can buy low end disposable tv's with OTT app lineups akin to TiVo it makes it seem as if tivo isn't making a big effort to be a premium player

And if we all agree that they have hard budget then the OP who assumed they could only do one thing at a time was spot on and one shouldn't be chastising him/her for making that assumption. Probably the proper way to describe the situation is that Tivo is capable of working on whatever they are doing inhouse plus just one or two external things at at time as their limited budget permits.

Also- while it makes sense to prioritize apple over android when you can only do one thing a year- it really makes little sense when you pay the apple developer and the android developer in the same fiscal year. Just pay them both at the same time and then you minimize confusion, discontent, whatever (no matter how small it may be) that your product only covers part of the market. Stream support is just one example- the android apps are always months behind the apple releases- it's not just the stream parts that are behind (and in this case spread over 2 different years).

I suppose bottom line is they decided that they dont want to invest what is needed to become "THE one box" and they believe their 'just good enough' approach is about right. Another sad conclusion i guess we have to live with.


----------



## slowbiscuit

The problem, IMO, is that they've used their patent portfolio as a weapon to keep themselves as the only DVR in this space, and as a result no one is really pushing them to make a better 'one box' because no one can do the DVR part without fear of being sued. They don't have to invest the money to do what we think it should do because they have the market all to themselves.

Yeah I know, I'm going to hear from the apologists that say 'they'll lose money on more features, market's not big enough, people don't want it' yada yada yada. But if you don't invest enough to match your marketing, you'll never know.


----------



## atmuscarella

slowbiscuit said:


> The problem, IMO, is that they've used their patent portfolio as a weapon to keep themselves as the only DVR in this space, and as a result no one is really pushing them to make a better 'one box' because no one can do the DVR part without fear of being sued. They don't have to invest the money to do what we think it should do because they have the market all to themselves.
> 
> Yeah I know, I'm going to hear from the apologists that say 'they'll lose money on more features, market's not big enough, people don't want it' yada yada yada. But if you don't invest enough to match your marketing, you'll never know.


Well there was anther stand alone HD cable DVR and Tivo did not sue them out of business. The market put them out of business. There are also other OTA DVRs that Tivo is not suing but are not a threat to TiVo because they all suck compared to TiVo. Also any company that wants to could be building Windows based HTPC and market them as DVRs that actually are a one box solution with no concerns about being sued by TiVo, in fact there used to be some companies that did just that but as far as I can tell they all gave up.

So I am sorry. but I don't think your summation is based on what I see as reality which is simply that the Market is unwilling to support Stand Alone DVRs with the limitations inherent to cable cards and tuning adapters at the price point needed for manufactures to be interested in building them.


----------



## morac

TiVo can't count on their patent portfolio indefinitely. Their major patents expire in 2018, which is only 5 years from now. TiVo is well aware of that, so I doubt they'll sit around doing nothing for the next 5 years.

The main problem I see with TiVo is that they tend to charge full steam into things and then promptly abandon them shortly after release. What I like to call corporate attention deficit disorder. Almost as if they rotate idea men in and out on a yearly basis. Partners come and go on what seems like a whim (Yahoo!, Dominos, etc) and today's "must have features" (home movie sharing, http://developer.tivo.com/, etc) are tomorrow's rejects. Innovating widely without a long term goal and hoping something sticks isn't much better than not innovating at all.

Basically TiVo as a company are like the dogs in the movie "Up!", except instead of squirrels it's "the next big thing". I believe the only thing keeping TiVo focused at this point are it's cable partners.


----------



## crxssi

morac said:


> [...]Basically TiVo as a company are like the dogs in the movie "Up!", except instead of squirrels it's "the next big thing". I believe the only thing keeping TiVo focused at this point are it's cable partners.


If they would just bring up the topics on this Forum, we would tell them exactly what they need to be working on to keep customers happy and their products competitive. And it would be free. Phat chance, I guess.


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> TiVo can't count on their patent portfolio indefinitely. Their major patents expire in 2018, which is only 5 years from now. TiVo is well aware of that, so I doubt they'll sit around doing nothing for the next 5 years.
> 
> The main problem I see with TiVo is that they tend to charge full steam into things and then promptly abandon them shortly after release. What I like to call corporate attention deficit disorder. Almost as if they rotate idea men in and out on a yearly basis. Partners come and go on what seems like a whim (Yahoo!, Dominos, etc) and today's "must have features" (home movie sharing, http://developer.tivo.com/, etc) are tomorrow's rejects. Innovating widely without a long term goal and hoping something sticks isn't much better than not innovating at all.
> 
> Basically TiVo as a company are like the dogs in the movie "Up!", except instead of squirrels it's "the next big thing". I believe the only thing keeping TiVo focused at this point are it's cable partners.


As Dave Zatz points out in the comment thread of a recent post, they are hiring a new developers lead to replace the departing Jay Patel.

http://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jobs-Product-Manager-Developer-4629332?_mSplash=1&sessionid=tnIxyKnYO1KjU4fRGpDW


----------



## morac

sbiller said:


> As Dave Zatz points out in the comment thread of a recent post, they are hiring a new developers lead to replace the departing Jay Patel.
> 
> http://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jobs-Product-Manager-Developer-4629332?_mSplash=1&sessionid=tnIxyKnYO1KjU4fRGpDW


Even so, one man leaving a company shouldn't kill (or severely delay) a project. It makes it look the project is a pet project of the person who left.


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> Even so, one man leaving a company shouldn't kill (or severely delay) a project. It makes it look the project is a pet project of the person who left.


I think the app platform is severely CPU limited - not meeting Adobe Air minimums, etc. I suspect a more healthy app platform with the next gen boxes. Of course it may be too little too late. I'm hoping the Mini might be a better platform to build-on with possibly a faster Broadcom chip.


----------



## wkearney99

morac said:


> It makes it look the project is a pet project of the person who left.


Quite a few products are just that. Not saying it's a good thing...

It would certainly be interesting to hear an insiders perspective on the mess that has been Tivo 3rd party involvement. Note I didn't call it a developer relationship or anything as grandiose, as it wasn't.


----------



## davezatz

wkearney99 said:


> It would certainly be interesting to hear an insiders opinion on the mess that has been Tivo 3rd party involvement.


TiVo & [company] work a deal. Third party development shop hired to build app. App is launched. App is never updated.


----------



## lessd

crxssi said:


> If they would just bring up the topics on this Forum, we would tell them exactly what they need to be working on to keep customers happy and their products competitive. And it would be free. Phat chance, I guess.


Your point is good as far as it goes, but by customers you most likely are talking about a small subset of TiVo owners, I have about 20 TiVos with friends and except for MRV and some Netflix streaming none of these TiVo owners knows about this form or the other features TiVo offers, or cares, some are still using a Series 2 and are happy. TiVo has to get into the MSO business or they will not make it as that where the volume is, as a stand alone DVR TiVo is not going to make it big, except for active people on this form, now the average person gets their DVR from the cable co. as that is a no hassle way of getting a DVR, no cable cards, free on sight service, unlimited warranty, what more could Joe average ask for, his surround sound system cost $300 and that person is satisfied or does not know any better. TiVos are not like the I-phone that have big volume capabilities as a consumer product.


----------



## aaronwt

There are still cable cards used in the cable company DVRs. At least those put into sevice after some date a few years ago.


----------



## lessd

aaronwt said:


> There are still cable cards used in the cable company DVRs. At least those put into sevice after some date a few years ago.


True, but not visible to the cable customer, as they are to the TiVo customer.


----------



## Davisadm

I heard that the TiVo Mini is on track to be out the end of March!!!


----------



## morac

Davisadm said:


> I heard that the TiVo Mini is on track to be out the end of March!!!


Of which year?


----------



## aaronwt

What year? 

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

^^ Well that was fast and predictable.  Thanks davisadm.

I can tolerate the product's early flaws. Just hope the price doesn't bust the deal.


----------



## Einselen

March of what year?


----------



## slowbiscuit

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I can tolerate the product's early flaws. Just hope the price doesn't bust the deal.


I won't be surprised at all if it comes out at $299 with no fees, which would bust the deal for me.
I'm not going to call it 'lifetime' because there shouldn't be a sub in the first place, but I also won't be surprised to see a $149 price with a $6.95 monthly fee.


----------



## tvn

A little bird told me that the sales staff is going into training next week. Hopefully this signifies an imminent release.


----------



## mr_smits

Excellent. Let's hope the rumors of end of March are true.


----------



## Dan203

If that's the case I wonder what the chances of dynamic tuner allocation being implemented before it's released are?


----------



## mr_smits

I'd say 0% chance. It that had happened the leaks would have been plentiful.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> If that's the case I wonder what the chances of dynamic tuner allocation being implemented before it's released are?


It's not going to happen at launch. Thought I already covered that. But I do believe Mini release is nearing. Pricing remains the big question and I don't have any intel. Yet. My most ninja Best Buy mole moved on last summer which has hindered me in a number of projects.


----------



## DaveDFW

mr_smits said:


> I'd say 0% chance.


I agree. 0% at launch, and probably only a 50% chance to see this feature implemented in 2013.


----------



## davezatz

DaveDFW said:


> I agree. 0% at launch, and probably only a 50% chance to see this feature implemented in 2013.


I've heard it's been pushed back. As to how far, who knows. Hopefully it's a 2013 feature.


----------



## mr_smits

davezatz said:


> I've heard it's been pushed back. As to how far, who knows. Hopefully it's a 2013 feature.


Pushed back to the next hardware refresh?

It would make sense to clear up all the confusion (or potential confusion) customers may have with the Tivo offerings. If the next box is the rumored 6 tuner box with integrated Stream capabilities and dynamic tuner allocation when paired with 3-4 minis, then this would be great.

Edit: Android and possibly web browser support for streaming would go along with clearing up the confusion. Windows 8 app should also be considered if adoption rates make sense. Tivo needs to widen their appeal.


----------



## RichB

I have one 4 tuner premiere and two 2- tuner premiere.
I would like to get 2 minis and lock them to 1 tuner on the each of the 2 tuner units.

Not much room for confusion here 

- rich


----------



## Dan203

RichB said:


> I have one 4 tuner premiere and two 2- tuner premiere.
> I would like to get 2 minis and lock them to 1 tuner on the each of the 2 tuner units.
> 
> Not much room for confusion here
> 
> - rich


It's my understanding that in it's current incarnation you can only pair a Mini to a 4 tuner unit. Even if you don't allocate any tuners it still requires a 4 tuner host.


----------



## swerver

I really dislike the 4 tuner restriction. In my case, I only have 2 tvs. My main tv has a 2 tuner tivo, and then my bedroom tv currently just has qam and internet streaming as I couldn't stand paying for a cable box up there any more, since I don't use it much. If I want to use a mini with a 2 tuner tivo, why does tivo care? I'm certainly not upgrading to a 4 tuner just for this if that's what they are thinking. For me it would be perfectly fine, since most of the time the bedroom tv gets used, the main tv is off anyway. Maybe I should just run an hdmi splitter like I see others doing and use wifi remote. This is what tivo is pushing me toward with this rule. I will happily hand over my money for the mini but I'm not upgrading the main tivo, so they are shooting themselves in the foot IMO. I don't follow how this restriction brings any benefit for them. I'd buy another tivo but again, I just hate paying monthly for my bedroom tv and 2nd cable card costs here are high.

Is there any hope that they will do away with the 4 tuner restriction?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Aside from semi-permanently losing a tuner to record from, the use-case I haven't seen mentioned before is that DTA also involves being able to switch between multiple sources.

With a QAM-only XL4 box, without DTA, the Mini can take tuner #4 and be done with it. No additional logic needed.

Not as clean with a 2-tuner box which has QAM and OTA sources. Without DTA, we'd have to choose which tuner the Mini would take -- a QAM tuner or an OTA tuner. And when the Mini hijacks one, it can't access any video from the other. It has no ability to toggle between both sources.

Not a problem for those that only use one or the other in their house, but Tivo has to develop for it anyway.


----------



## slowbiscuit

I also think it's odd that they don't want to let you watch recordings from 2-tuner boxes if you don't have a 4-tuner, but it's probably due to keeping confused customers from calling about not being able to get live TV.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

swerver said:


> Is there any hope that they will do away with the 4 tuner restriction?


There is a chance once they have implemented what we're calling dynamic tuner allocation (DTA) in this discussion. It's on the roadmap but won't be a feature at launch.


----------



## Jonathan_S

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Aside from semi-permanently losing a tuner to record from, the use-case I haven't seen mentioned before is that DTA also involves being able to switch between multiple sources.
> 
> With a QAM-only XL4 box, without DTA, the Mini can take tuner #4 and be done with it. No additional logic needed.
> 
> Not as clean with a 2-tuner box which has QAM and OTA sources. Without DTA, we'd have to choose which tuner the Mini would take -- a QAM tuner or an OTA tuner. And when the Mini hijacks one, it can't access any video from the other. It has no ability to toggle between both sources.
> 
> Not a problem for those that only use one or the other in their house, but Tivo has to develop for it anyway.


 But none of the Premiere units act that way. (The S2DT had that split capability where a subset of channels could be received from the internal analog cable tuner and most had to come from the A/V input from the externally controlled cable box)

The 2-tuner Premieres can record two shows from QAM/analog cable, two from ATSC (OTA), or 1 from each. (because while it has two 'logical' tuners show in the user interface there are actually four phyiscal hardware tuners; two cable, two OTA). The mini wouldn't have to pre-decide which to take up; it'd take one 'logical' tuner and have access to cable or OTA depending on the channel selected (just like through the normal user interface).


----------



## Dan203

With the way it works now it makes sense that it doesn't work with the 2 tuner boxes. The current option allows you to dedicate 1 or 2 tuners to the Mini for live TV. And when that option is set those tuners are removed from the pool available to the local unit. If they offered the same option for 2 tuner units then it would be possible to make it so the TiVo itself had no tuners and couldn't record anything.

Rather then wasting time and effort into educating consumers as to why it works differently on the 4 tuner unit then it does the 2 tuner unit, it's probably easier for the sales and support staff to just say it only works with a 4 tuner unit. Once DTA is functional they might expand it to 2 tuner boxes, but there is no guarantee. There would still be the issue with Mini's possibly taking to many tuners and causing the main box not to be able to record anything. And who knows how that might effect the scheduler.

Perhaps the next gen TiVos will have 3 and 6 tuners, instead of 2 and 4. That would allow the 3 tuner unit to dedicate at least 1 tuner to a Mini without compromise and 2 with the ability to still function. Plus the naming conventions would allow them to differentiate between the current units. (i.e. Premiere XL3 and XL6)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Jonathan_S said:


> The mini wouldn't have to pre-decide which to take up; it'd take one 'logical' tuner and have access to cable or OTA depending on the channel selected (just like through the normal user interface).


Does that assume the Mini could actually do that, today? That's kinda my point.


----------



## moyekj

As mentioned many times now they should allow 2 tuner Premiere units as Mini hosts without live tv capability - better than not at all which seems to be the current plan...


----------



## RichB

moyekj said:


> As mentioned many times now they should allow 2 tuner Premiere units as Mini hosts without live tv capability - better than not at all which seems to be the current plan...


Yep. I have them lying around.
Especially, if you many rooms and few people

I have to follow that robot fight around the house. 

- Rich


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm thinking they have a problem with their pricing if they tried to sell it strictly as a recording streamer to those people. As it is, nobody's happy about the fees inflating the final cost to anywhere between $200-$300. Reduce functionality further and it gets silly.

I mean, I wouldn't pay $250, $300 just for that. I don't want to pay that even with TV tuning.


----------



## aaronwt

I think taking away any tuner would compromise the box. Anytime you have four concurrent recordings scheduled, you would be screwed.

Still though, I wish the Mini was out yesterday. I still want to get one so I can get rid of my third cable card.


----------



## RichB

aaronwt said:


> I think taking away any tuner would compromise the box. Anytime you have four concurrent recordings scheduled, you would be screwed.
> 
> Still though, I wish the Mini was out yesterday. I still want to get one so I can get rid of my third cable card.


If there are two recordings going, you have to cancel or watch one of those or something that is being records.

It is really no different than streaming.

It does not seem to screw the IPAD app. Just use that method for a 2 TiVo unit. This seems to more a business concern than a technical problem.

- Rich


----------



## moyekj

RichB said:


> It does not seem to screw the IPAD app. Just use that method for a 2 TiVo unit. This seems to more a business concern than a technical problem.


 The iPad app way of creating a bunch of recording clips and not cleaning up after itself is a very poor hack and I would be disgusted at TiVo if they released the Mini that way. I'd say better no live TV at all than that hack.


----------



## Bigg

Are there any reviews of this thing out yet? Like in the field? We know there are some out there on Suddenlink, although we don't know how many.


----------



## Jonathan_S

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Does that assume the Mini could actually do that, today? That's kinda my point.


Today I believe that the 2-tuner Premiere software won't allow a mini to take any tuners; so it's kind of a moot point.

But if they enabled it I can't imagine why it would need to lock to only 1 of the physical tuners; none of the rest of the user interface acts that way.


----------



## jcthorne

swerver said:


> I really dislike the 4 tuner restriction. In my case, I only have 2 tvs. My main tv has a 2 tuner tivo, and then my bedroom tv currently just has qam and internet streaming as I couldn't stand paying for a cable box up there any more, since I don't use it much. If I want to use a mini with a 2 tuner tivo, why does tivo care? I'm certainly not upgrading to a 4 tuner just for this if that's what they are thinking. For me it would be perfectly fine, since most of the time the bedroom tv gets used, the main tv is off anyway. Maybe I should just run an hdmi splitter like I see others doing and use wifi remote. This is what tivo is pushing me toward with this rule. I will happily hand over my money for the mini but I'm not upgrading the main tivo, so they are shooting themselves in the foot IMO. I don't follow how this restriction brings any benefit for them. I'd buy another tivo but again, I just hate paying monthly for my bedroom tv and 2nd cable card costs here are high.
> 
> Is there any hope that they will do away with the 4 tuner restriction?


Just install a small 2 tuner tivo at the bedroom tv. Problem solved. Yes its just a bit more expensive than a mini but not as much as most folks think. In the end only about $150 more for a full function tivo over the mini which has alot less features.


----------



## sbiller

jcthorne said:


> Just install a small 2 tuner tivo at the bedroom tv. Problem solved. Yes its just a bit more expensive than a mini but not as much as most folks think. In the end only about $150 more for a full function tivo over the mini which has alot less features.


If the Mini is a lot faster than the Premiere because of a faster internal processor, than it could be a better alternative for a bedroom TV... no need for a Roku, etc. That statement, of course, makes the assumption that Netflix, Amazon, and other services will be made available on the Mini. I wouldn't hesitate to pick the Mini over a 2-tuner Premiere if it rendered the HDUI at 2x the speed. This would result in a better user experience. Of course, there will be some compromises with the Mini that need to be accounted for including the loss of tuner on the gateway DVR.

For me, the simplicity of only needing to manage recordings on one DVR is another benefit. I will likely move to a 6-tuner box when its available especially if it comes with a faster user experience.


----------



## jadziedzic

jcthorne said:


> Yes its just a bit more expensive than a mini but not as much as most folks think. In the end only about $150 more for a full function tivo over the mini which has alot less features.


Unless you live in Comcast land where you have to pay about $8/month - forever - for an "additional digital outlet fee" for the TiVo with a CableCARD at that bedroom TV. A $200 mini would pay for itself in about two years, and saves $100 per year afterward compared to a TiVo unit with a CableCARD.

Not really "just a bit more expensive", especially if you have more than one secondary digital outlet.


----------



## crxssi

sbiller said:


> If the Mini is a lot faster than the Premiere because of a faster internal processor, than it could be a better alternative for a bedroom TV...


And it would have no hard drive to fail. And it would be physically a lot smaller. Might also be quieter with no fan. Plus it is cheaper.

Too bad it is unnecessarily incompatible with probably 95% of the installed TiVo userbase.


----------



## crxssi

jadziedzic said:


> Unless you live in Comcast land where you have to pay about $8/month - forever - for an "additional digital outlet fee" for the TiVo with a CableCARD at that bedroom TV. A $200 mini would pay for itself in about two years, and saves $100 per year afterward compared to a TiVo unit with a CableCARD.
> 
> Not really "just a bit more expensive", especially if you have more than one secondary digital outlet.


I have said this seemingly a dozen times. But I guess I have to say it again...

Unless you give a damn about "live" TV, which probably the vast majority of TiVo users don't, then there is no need for a cable card or connection to cable for a remote viewing/streaming device. Even if it is just a regular TiVo. So you can't necessarily make a cost comparison that way.


----------



## davezatz

crxssi said:


> Unless you give a damn about "live" TV, which probably the vast majority of TiVo users don't, then there is no need for a cable card or connection to cable for a remote viewing/streaming device.


I probably watch more "live" and OTT TV content, than DVR-ed video. Am I the exception or the rule? (And, of course, TiVo wants to sell the solution to more than just existing TiVo retail customers - which is a generally diminishing number.)


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> I probably watch more "live" and OTT TV content, than DVR-ed video. Am I the exception or the rule? (And, of course, TiVo wants to sell the solution to more than just existing TiVo retail customers - which is a generally diminishing number.)


I personally watch quite a bit of live TV -- mostly news and sports.

Regarding your diminishing numbers, IF TiVo reported Premiere users on a quarterly basis, I believe that number is growing. They continue to bleed series 2 and series 3 subscribers at a higher rate.

Here is a quote from Tom Rogers at the Nov 29, 2012 JP Morgan conference,



> Oh, churn was -- we had probably our best churn rate in many years. That churn rate is usually a function of older units, often standard definition older TiVo, still coming off the churn we find on our newer products that provide the full integration of existing television and broadband TV as -- is a very small churn rate, well below the published number [1.4%].


----------



## overFEDEXed

crxssi said:


> I have said this seemingly a dozen times. But I guess I have to say it again...
> 
> Unless you give a damn about "live" TV, which probably the vast majority of TiVo users don't, then there is no need for a cable card or connection to cable for a remote viewing/streaming device. Even if it is just a regular TiVo. So you can't necessarily make a cost comparison that way.


I just switched to a Cox Cable, Economy package. http://ww2.cox.com/residential/middlegeorgia/tv/tv-economy/channel-listings.cox With Spring just around the corner, we really don't need that many channels so...

I *was* paying $83 a month, including cards and Gateway fees, for three Tivos. *Now*, I'm paying $35 for around 60 channels.
This is the strange part, that $35 *includes* the three cable cards and Gateway fees. (If the rep gave me the correct info, which i doubt) Those fees were around $14. ($6 for three cards and $8 for two gateways)

I wanted the mini's, so that I could get rid of two cable cards and gateway fees. Now, if this will be my true cost, when I get my bill, I will have to rethink my Tivo mini strategy.

I am losing a few channels, that I kind of liked, but nothing critical.


----------



## RichB

crxssi said:


> And it would have no hard drive to fail. And it would be physically a lot smaller. Might also be quieter with no fan. Plus it is cheaper.
> 
> Too bad it is unnecessarily incompatible with probably 95% of the installed TiVo userbase.


That would be nice.
The TiVo Stream is small yet sounds like a toy helicopter 

- Rich


----------



## RichB

davezatz said:


> I probably watch more "live" and OTT TV content, than DVR-ed video. Am I the exception or the rule? (And, of course, TiVo wants to sell the solution to more than just existing TiVo retail customers - which is a generally diminishing number.)


I can't understand this.
After all, we raise the lifetime price provide less whole house features and they still fail to flock to our solution. 

My brother wanted to cut the cord but we could not come up with a cost effective solution using TiVo.

- Rich


----------



## crxssi

davezatz said:


> I probably watch more "live" and OTT TV content, than DVR-ed video. Am I the exception or the rule?


Wow. I would guess you are the exception. I watch absolutely nothing that is not recorded. Maybe we need a poll to figure it out. I will make one!


----------



## crxssi

crxssi said:


> Unless you give a damn about "live" TV, which probably the vast majority of TiVo users don't


OK, I guess I stand corrected on that part (by my own poll: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=952767 ). To my surprise, a lot more people use "live" TV on the TiVo than I would ever have guessed. So I am in a large minority instead of in a large majority.

Now, how important "live" TV might be to people on non-primary TV's (presumably the main use of a Mini), I can't say (since that wasn't asked). But it does point to it being an important feature for many users (one I really don't understand).


----------



## atmuscarella

RichB said:


> I can't understand this.
> After all, we raise the lifetime price provide less whole house features and they still fail to flock to our solution.


The Price of a Premiere (dual tuner) with lifetime has remained about the same since it was released, with various deals along the way it has been fairly easy to buy one for around $500 and is less than a what a Tivo HD with lifetime cost when they brought lifetime service back. The premieres provides more whole house features than any other Tivo has so I am not sure how you think they are providing less.



RichB said:


> My brother wanted to cut the cord but we could not come up with a cost effective solution using TiVo.
> 
> - Rich


Note sure how to define cost effective but I do feel my three HD TiVos with lifetime, which I only use for OTA, were a good value and worth what I paid for them. There are a few options out there for an OTA DVR but I only consider the various dual tuner HD TiVos and HTPCs viable options if your interested in recording OTA HD TV and want a DVR that has good guide data, is easy to use, & is reliable. There isn't going to be much price difference between Tivos or HTPCs. I have both and like having both, I use the TiVos for DVRs and the HTPC for streaming and surfing (posting this using my HTPC on my 50 in plasma).


----------



## jcthorne

jadziedzic said:


> Unless you live in Comcast land where you have to pay about $8/month - forever - for an "additional digital outlet fee" for the TiVo with a CableCARD at that bedroom TV. A $200 mini would pay for itself in about two years, and saves $100 per year afterward compared to a TiVo unit with a CableCARD.
> 
> Not really "just a bit more expensive", especially if you have more than one secondary digital outlet.


A tivo works fine as an extender without a cable card. Will do everything the mini will do. Only need the cable card if you ALSO want local tuning of CATV channels. It will tune OTA and clear QAM without the cable card which the mini will not. There would be no 'digital outlet fee with out the cable card.


----------



## mr_smits

crxssi said:


> Might also be quieter *with no fan*.


I hope you are right.


----------



## mr_smits

moyekj said:


> The iPad app way of creating a bunch of recording clips and not cleaning up after itself is a very poor hack and I would be disgusted at TiVo if they released the Mini that way. I'd say better no live TV at all than that hack.


Tell us how you really feel.


----------



## Time_Lord

As I see it the big win for the TiVo mini would be the ability to watch your pre-recorded shows on another TV. A second win would be to stream live TV from one of the tuners on the TiVo - any only have a single cable card.

I wonder how this will shake up the DVR industry come June 2014... http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm

I'm sure somebody can find a better link but it outlines the compatibility requirements of DVR's and their ability to stream data to any unit (akak competitors units). So I would think TiVo would want to flood the market with as many of these mini's as it could before they have to start competing with everybody... Unless they are still trying to figure out which standard to use. As the old saying goes "The great thing about standards is there are so many to choose from"

-TL


----------



## crxssi

Time_Lord said:


> I wonder how this will shake up the DVR industry come June 2014... http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+to+For...D+With+Open+Standard+by+2014/article29357.htm


I doubt it will do anything. The FCC has already proven MULTIPLE TIMES that no matter what rules they put in place, the cable companies are going to pretty much ruin them and prevent consumers from having real choice or control. The FCC has no teeth and the cable companies know it now.


----------



## overFEDEXed

I just saw a post, about Tivo Mini's, in the "Tivo Help Center" forum. Wish that was me that had two mini's.

Link http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=501168


----------



## spotterman26

Hey everybody, new poster here, been following this community waiting on the mini. I'm on Suddenlink cable in Eastern NC, and we have the mini here. I have 2 installed currently. Only had them a week. Have a premiere q in my living room, and the two minis (in a bonus room and a bedroom).
So far I'm very happy with them, minus an issue with audio not responding after automatic standby (the mini is supposed to relinquish the tuner back to the q after 1.5 hrs of inactivity, more on that later). I'm working on that.. thanks to a few helpful posts on another thread.
Setup was a pain, getting them all to communicate, took forever for them to go live on my account. Total setup time maybe 2 hours, most waiting on tivo to add them to my account. Seamless integration over moca, access to my premiere recordings and live tv. Easy to pause and resume across all 3. The dynamic sharing of the tuners hasn't been very dynamic, essentially I lost two tuners on my premiere. I'm assuming there must be an update to straighten that out at some point, at least I hope. I've got full guide access, some lag when changing channels but not bad. 
Hope this is helpful!


----------



## moyekj

spotterman26 said:


> I'm on Suddenlink cable in Eastern NC, and we have the mini here. I have 2 installed currently. Only had them a week. Have a premiere q in my living room, and the two minis (in a bonus room and a bedroom) <snip>


 So how responsive are the Minis compared to Premiere units running HDUI menus and Flash apps? From the demo and other sources I got the impression Mini was supposed to be much more responsive. Is that the case?


----------



## spotterman26

Hdui response is comparable to the premiere, wouldn't say any faster or slower. Apps are the same. Not much info there i guess, in a nutshell I can't really tell a noticeable drop in response on either from my premiere and the minis.


----------



## morac

spotterman26 said:


> (the mini is supposed to relinquish the tuner back to the q after 1.5 hrs of inactivity, more on that later).


That goes counter to everything we've heard about Minis, namely that it permanently takes a tuner.


----------



## moyekj

morac said:


> That goes counter to everything we've heard about Minis, namely that it permanently takes a tuner.


 Yes, more likely it goes into some kind of screensaver mode after certain about of time with no activity so needless network streaming of live TV doesn't continue indefinitely when nobody is watching.


----------



## Arcady

Why would anyone assume a TiVo device goes to a screensaver? No TiVo has ever done that.


----------



## Dan203

spotterman26 - what happens if you setup the Q to only allocate one tuner for network devices? Perhaps that's where the 1.5 hour time out comes into play? Maybe after 1.5 hours it relinquishes the tuner so the other one can use it? If that's the case I wonder if simply going into the menus by pressing TiVo would relinquish it immediately. (if it has the little preview window you might need to press Slow to turn it off, or turn it off permanently in settings)


----------



## moyekj

Arcady said:


> Why would anyone assume a TiVo device goes to a screensaver? No TiVo has ever done that.


 Because Mini is a special case of streaming "live TV" from a host unit. Would you want the Mini default "screensaver" to be live TV and therefore stream most of the time when not being used and therefore take up network bandwidth and burden the host TiVo all the time with that extra stream? I sure wouldn't.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> Because Mini is a special case of streaming "live TV" from a host unit. Would you want the Mini default "screensaver" to be live TV and therefore stream most of the time when not being used and therefore take up network bandwidth and burden the host TiVo all the time with that extra stream? I sure wouldn't.


No big deal about the bandwidth. A TV channel uses a small amount of bandwidth. At most 19Mb/s. The Premiere could do that all day it and wouldn't make a difference. But I wouldn't want a tuner being stolen indefinitely.


----------



## spotterman26

aaronwt said:


> But I wouldn't want a tuner being stolen indefinitely.


My assumption was that the tuner would be allocated to the mini whenever the mini needed it to stream live tv/watch recorded shows from the Premiere. I was aware of the "dynamic tuner sharing" talk and _hoped_ it would function that way. After talking to the tech when I ordered the service, he said specifically the mini would (paraphrasing him here) "go to sleep" after 1.5 hours of inactivity and give the tuner back to the Premiere. Works for me cause I've got 3 overlapping recordings scheduled several nights a week. First instance where there was a conflict, one program did not record/dynamic tuner sharing wasn't very dynamic. I hope that's a software issue they can work on. There is a standby option, I haven't tried that yet. I might schedule something random to record tonight and put one on standby.
Here's a shot of TiVo Central I took this morning. No preview window, and a "Watch Live TV" option. Besides that, the interface is the same. I'll take a shot of the back of the mini when I get home this afternoon.


----------



## overFEDEXed

spotterman26,

Does the Mini have a Bluetooth remote? (fingers crossed)
Sorry if I missed that info earlier.


----------



## spotterman26

overFEDEXed said:


> spotterman26,
> 
> Does the Mini have a Bluetooth remote? (fingers crossed)
> Sorry if I missed that info earlier.


Comes with the standard peanut TiVo remote, works with the TiVo app too.


----------



## overFEDEXed

spotterman26 said:


> Comes with the standard peanut TiVo remote, works with the TiVo app too.


Does it say anywhere, where you could use a Bluetooth?

I saw that it has a USB, or the pictures that I saw, showed that.
That's why I was asking.

Thanks


----------



## spotterman26

overFEDEXed said:


> Does it say anywhere, where you could use a Bluetooth?
> 
> I saw that it has a USB, or the pictures that I saw, showed that.
> That's why I was asking.
> 
> Thanks


Ah, gotcha. Yes it has a USB port, I haven't seen any Bluetooth support.


----------



## Jonathan_S

spotterman26 said:


> Ah, gotcha. Yes it has a USB port, I haven't seen any Bluetooth support.


I thought I remembered reading that minis should work with the (now discontinued) TiVo slide remote. Those use bluetooth (to a USB dongle)...


----------



## overFEDEXed

spotterman26 said:


> Ah, gotcha. Yes it has a USB port, I haven't seen any Bluetooth support.


Thank you for checking.

I have gotten used to the Slide remotes.
They are a little flakey sometimes, but they are worth it.


----------



## puffdaddy

spotterman26 said:


> I'll take a shot of the back of the mini when I get home this afternoon.


Are your mini's running the same software version as your Premiere (I'm assuming "20.2.2.1-01-2"), or are they running a different version?


----------



## atmuscarella

I would have thought there would be a good case for an off button on the mini. Why would it need to be powered up when not in use?


----------



## P42

spotterman26, post more pics please! And if you dare, some of the inside


----------



## spotterman26

puffdaddy said:


> Are your mini's running the same software version as your Premiere (I'm assuming "20.2.2.1-01-2"), or are they running a different version?


I'll check and get back to you on that. At work for a while longer at the moment.



atmuscarella said:


> I would have thought there would be a good case for an off button on the mini. Why would it need to be powered up when not in use?


No power button, the unit is always on. If it goes into standby on its own, the light on the front stays on. If you manually put it in standby, the light goes off. 



P42 said:


> spotterman26, post more pics please! And if you dare, some of the inside


I'm planning on taking some more pics when I get home. Anything specific? I'll get the back/connections, front, etc. No promises on the inside, but I'll give it a look.


----------



## Dan203

I'm 99% sure that dynamic tuner allocation is not functional yet. Which means that your TiVo Q has now been converted to a 2 tuner unit because the other two are allocated for live TV on the Minis.

You should really try my suggestion. If you go to Setting->Remote,CableCARD & Devices.. on the TiVo Q there is a setting for how many tuners you want to allocate to live TV on networked devices. Try setting it to 1 and see if both Minis still work with live TV. (one at a time) That will make your Q a 3 tuner unit and still give you access to live TV on the Minis when you need it. Or if you don't need live TV at all you can actually turn it off completely and get all 4 tuners back on the Q. The Minis will then only be able to stream recorded shows from the Q, not watch live TV.


----------



## sbiller

Spotterman, 

What apps are available on your Mini? 

Can you launch one or all of the apps and time how long it takes to start up compared to your Q?

As you can tell, there is a lot of interest here on your experience with the Mini!

Thanks,
Sam


----------



## sbiller

Spotterman,

If you could take a video of the Mini in action and upload it to YouTube, I'm sure there might be a few people very interested in that as well. 

Thanks again for the info!
~Sam


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Spotterman,
> 
> If you could take a video of the Mini in action and upload it to YouTube, I'm sure there might be a few people very interested in that as well.
> 
> Thanks again for the info!
> ~Sam


Yeah, or few photos of the screws on the bottom of the device, the software version screen, and anything that shows the tuner time out. Thanks!


----------



## Philmatic

Spotterman, you basically just became our *****. lol


----------



## davezatz

I'll make it worth his while.


----------



## puffdaddy

davezatz said:


> I'll make it worth his while.


I'm afraid to ask how!


----------



## crxssi

aaronwt said:


> No big deal about the bandwidth..


I think it is very poor form to use any bandwidth unnecessarily. All it would take is a few non-friendly devices to ruin a network, especially if it had any wireless components in it.


----------



## crxssi

Philmatic said:


> Spotterman, you basically just became our *****. lol


LOL! You said it before I could...


----------



## spotterman26

Sorry for the delay, had to get the kiddo to bed. I've got 11 photos, most of what was asked for. I'll take a video of apps and interface tomorrow. I've got them in a flickr set linked here:

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjE3AQr6


----------



## spotterman26

puffdaddy said:


> I'm afraid to ask how!


Me too..



crxssi said:


> LOL! You said it before I could...


Maybe, but I've got two TiVo Minis. 

On a serious note, glad to help, I've been lurking on this forum for a while, joined up in December so I could search, figured I'd contribute what I could.


----------



## moyekj

Thanks for the pics.
Looks like there is indeed a "screensaver" mode (from last picture) which you get after 90 minutes of inactivity:

__
https://flic.kr/p/8491022074
(My guess is there is also a "still watching?" kind of dialog in case you are actually still watching but have not interacted with the box for 90 minutes before the screensaver mode kicks in).

Netflix is not shown, but I guess with MSO provided TiVo hardware I wouldn't expect it. Hopefully the retail version will have Netflix.


----------



## spotterman26

moyekj said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> Looks like there is indeed a "screensaver" mode (from last picture) which you get after 90 minutes of inactivity:
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/8491022074
> (My guess is there is also a "still watching?" kind of dialog in case you are actually still watching but have not interacted with the box for 90 minutes before the screensaver mode kicks in).


Yep, been waiting to take a picture of that window.



moyekj said:


> Netflix is not shown, but I guess with MSO provided TiVo hardware I wouldn't expect it. Hopefully the retail version will have Netflix.


Correct, at least with Suddenlink, I have no Netflix or Hulu Plus anymore. I use Apple TV for those. I do have Pandora on the Mini (and Q).


----------



## sbiller

spotterman26 said:


> Yep, been waiting to take a picture of that window.
> 
> Correct, at least with Suddenlink, I have no Netflix or Hulu Plus anymore. I use Apple TV for those. I do have Pandora on the Mini (and Q).


Can you time the launch of YouTube and Pandora and compare it to the launch time on the Q?


----------



## P42

Interesting the circuit board is mounted upside down. Is the top of the box metal?

Thanks spotterman26!


----------



## spotterman26

sbiller said:


> Can you time the launch of YouTube and Pandora and compare it to the launch time on the Q?


Pandora:
Q - 5.2 sec
Mini - 4.2 sec

YouTube:
Q - 33.9 sec
Mini - 11.6 sec


----------



## spotterman26

P42 said:


> Is the top of the box metal?


It's all plastic. Not a fan of the pyramid shape personally, it looks like they missed a great opportunity to make a true mini tivo. Just my .02.


----------



## sbiller

spotterman26 said:


> Pandora:
> Q - 5.2 sec
> Mini - 4.2 sec
> 
> YouTube:
> Q - 33.9 sec
> Mini - 11.6 sec


Hmmmm.... seems a bit faster. Agreed? When you are scrolling through selections in YouTube does it seem a bit quicker than the Q? I'm trying to think of something that's a bit slow on the Q. How about going into TiVo Search and typing.

Anyway, thanks for running that test. Extremely interesting... It sure seems like it might have a faster processor.


----------



## steve614

Was that a reset button on the bottom? I couldn't make out the text next to that white dot.


----------



## spotterman26

Navigating YouTube seems faster on the Mini. On the Q I always have lag, specifically typing into the search bar, on the Mini it wasn't as bad.


----------



## spotterman26

steve614 said:


> Was that a reset button on the bottom? I couldn't make out the text next to that white dot.


Sorry, tough to get good light. It's the Resolution button.


----------



## sbiller

http://suddenlinkfyi.com/2013/02/19/many-suddenlink-communities-get-tivo-mini/

Today, in more than 100 Suddenlink-served communities, we announced an enhancement to our Any-Room DVR offering through TiVo® Mini devices. These devices, when linked to a Suddenlink TiVo HD/DVR, make it easier and more economical to bring the TiVo experience to other TV sets in the home. We are the first cable provider in the country to offer TiVo Mini.


----------



## sbiller

steve614 said:


> Was that a reset button on the bottom? I couldn't make out the text next to that white dot.


The photo caption says its a resolution button... doesn't TiVo call that "format" on the front of the Premiere?


----------



## moyekj

I'm pretty sure dynamic tuners are not yet released (else they should be in retail by now), but as a simple test to confirm you could make sure Mini is not on live TV and then try recording 4 things at once on the Q. Obviously if Mini is taking a tuner permanently that shouldn't be allowed.
If you do this then just for grins you could also try allocating 0 tuners to the Mini to confirm you can then record 4 things at once again. Thanks for your experimenting!


----------



## spotterman26

moyekj said:


> I'm pretty sure dynamic tuners are not yet released (else they should be in retail by now), but as a simple test to confirm you could make sure Mini is not on live TV and then try recording 4 things at once on the Q. Obviously if Mini is taking a tuner permanently that shouldn't be allowed.
> If you do this then just for grins you could also try allocating 0 tuners to the Mini to confirm you can then record 4 things at once again. Thanks for your experimenting!


I'll do a more thorough test tomorrow by changing the settings on my Q, but I put my 2nd Mini on standby, and confirmed the mini was shut down. The light is out, gotta assume it's shut down. I have set up 3 programs to record, and I'm getting the conflict screen. I took a picture of the "Allow Live TV on Other Devices" screen:

Gonna take some time running around the house doing all this, so this will have to be a project for tomorrow.


----------



## moyekj

OK thanks again. So it's confirmed the current software on the Mini (which matches the currently released Premiere software) doesn't have dynamic tuner allocation as expected.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> http://suddenlinkfyi.com/2013/02/19/many-suddenlink-communities-get-tivo-mini/
> 
> Today, in more than 100 Suddenlink-served communities, we announced an enhancement to our Any-Room DVR offering through TiVo® Mini devices. These devices, when linked to a Suddenlink TiVo HD/DVR, make it easier and more economical to bring the TiVo experience to other TV sets in the home. We are the first cable provider in the country to offer TiVo Mini.


Well that's F-ed up... I think. They ran my photo, my hand, and my wedding ring.

Edit: Maybe we're square since I had imported their TiVo Mini commercial into my YouTube account.


----------



## sbiller

Mayber Spotterman can lend them a photo that includes the Suddenlink logo?!? 

Their bloggers are on a very tight budget!


----------



## DigitalDawn

spotterman26 said:


> Ah, gotcha. Yes it has a USB port, I haven't seen any Bluetooth support.


Spotterman,

Can you confirm that the Mini is using Infrared rather than an RF remote. To test this you can put your hand over the front of the Mini remote to see if it still works.


----------



## davezatz

If there was RF and TiVo submitted under their name, we'd have seen the Mini pass thru the FCC.


----------



## aaronwt

crxssi said:


> I think it is very poor form to use any bandwidth unnecessarily. All it would take is a few non-friendly devices to ruin a network, especially if it had any wireless components in it.


I run around sixty devices on my network. A number of them are constantly streaming data(with a number of them wireless). I've never had any issues with devices constantly streaming data over my network. When I need to, I can still transfer between wired PCs at 900+Mb/s.(and between wireless PCs at up to 150Mb/s)
If the wireless and wired network is setup properly, there will not be issues.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> I run around sixty devices on my network. A number of them are constantly streaming data(with a number of them wireless). I've never had any issues with devices constantly streaming data over my network. When I need to, I can still transfer between wired PCs at 900+Mb/s.(and between wireless PCs at up to 150Mb/s)
> If the wireless and wired network is setup properly, there will not be issues.


 My 3 TiVos area already noisy enough on the network with their Bonjour and TiVo Beacon activity and I for one don't want additional needless streaming activity over MoCA part of my network when nobody is using the equipment. Perhaps more importantly it also adds unnecessary I/O and CPU overhead to the host unit - and those 4 tuner units running HDUI already tend to be sluggish (even though I know you think they are great speeds for you running HDUI).


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> My 3 TiVos area already noisy enough on the network with their Bonjour and TiVo Beacon activity and I for one don't want additional needless streaming activity over MoCA part of my network when nobody is using the equipment. It also adds unnecessary I/O and CPU overhead to the host unit - and those 4 tuner units running HDUI already tend to be sluggish (even though I know you think they are great speeds for you running HDUI).


I never said the UI speeds were great, but they have been acceptable to me. But of course, faster would be better.


----------



## P42

davezatz said:


> Well that's F-ed up... I think. They ran my photo, my hand, and my wedding ring.


Have you ever though about become a hand model?


----------



## mr_smits

spotterman26 said:


> . I took a picture of the "Allow Live TV on Other Devices" screen:


Thanks for posting this. Hopefully dynamic tuner issue is resolved sooner rather than later. Can you imagine explaining to customers why their 4 tuner Tivo can no longer record 4 shows at once? Not very "easy", Tivo.


----------



## Test

moyekj said:


> Because Mini is a special case of streaming "live TV" from a host unit. Would you want the Mini default "screensaver" to be live TV and therefore stream most of the time when not being used and therefore take up network bandwidth and burden the host TiVo all the time with that extra stream? I sure wouldn't.


I wouldn't either. Even if the "screensaver" is just the main menu it'll be better than needlessly streaming to a TV that someone might not even be using.


----------



## RichB

moyekj said:


> Because Mini is a special case of streaming "live TV" from a host unit. Would you want the Mini default "screensaver" to be live TV and therefore stream most of the time when not being used and therefore take up network bandwidth and burden the host TiVo all the time with that extra stream? I sure wouldn't.


Isn't it possible for the mini to recognize that the HDMI sink (TV) is off and relinquish the tuner?

- Rich


----------



## RichB

This is off Topic but wouldn't it be nice if TiVo would support RVU so we could have TV's without boxes in kitchens and bedrooms...

http://hdguru.com/what-is-rvu-youll-want-to-know/9963/#more-9963

- Rich


----------



## P42

Maybe the Best Buy TVs are or were meant to be that. What ever happened to them, and what was their purpose?


----------



## davezatz

P42 said:


> Maybe the Best Buy TVs are or were meant to be that. What ever happened to them, and what was their purpose?


Discontinued.


----------



## Time_Lord

moyekj said:


> My 3 TiVos area already noisy enough on the network with their Bonjour and TiVo Beacon activity and I for one don't want additional needless streaming activity over MoCA part of my network when nobody is using the equipment. Perhaps more importantly it also adds unnecessary I/O and CPU overhead to the host unit - and those 4 tuner units running HDUI already tend to be sluggish (even though I know you think they are great speeds for you running HDUI).


How noisy do you really think they are? Keep in mind 100 mb Ethernet has a maximum theoretical pps rate of roughly 140K for minimum sized packets and just over 8K pps for maximum sized frames, so a few small broadcast frames are insignificant.

Ok moca is half duplex but higher throughout so again the broadcast traffic is insignificant.

If you are so concerned about using up all your bandwidth use an Ethernet switch instead, now you are no longer sharing bandwidth with multiple devices except for broadcast (and multicast if your switch is unaware of multicast)

-TL


----------



## P42

Discontinued? Wow that was quick!


----------



## Bigg

The bandwidth used for 24/7 live TV wouldn't be an issue for cable users who are only using MoCA for TiVos. HOWEVER, for FIOS users, for cable users who have built a MoCA backbone, this could be a serious issue. Realistically, even in a well-wired home, MoCA has about 75mbps of bandwidth. FIOS TV channels, since they are not re-compressed like cable, use upwards of the full 19mbps of bandwidth.

So, you do a couple of TiVo Mini streams, and you're already eating way into the 75mbps bandwidth available on FIOS internet, especially if you're using MoCA to get the FIOS signal into the house. If you have a pair of Premieres each with three TiVo Minis, and a whole backbone built out of MoCA, you could be in for some serious bandwidth issues already. Yes, that's an extreme case, but my point is, unlike GigE, MoCA doesn't just have effectively unlimited bandwidth, and while it's reliable and fast, you can fairly easily run out.

More tech-saavy users would run CAT-5 from the ONT to the router, or they would throw a band-pass filter in between two segments of the MoCA network to isolate them and then cross them back over through Ethernet, but not everyone would know to do that, or have the right wiring configuration to be able to do that.


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> The bandwidth used for 24/7 live TV wouldn't be an issue for cable users who are only using MoCA for TiVos. HOWEVER, for FIOS users, for cable users who have built a MoCA backbone, this could be a serious issue. Realistically, even in a well-wired home, MoCA has about 75mbps of bandwidth. FIOS TV channels, since they are not re-compressed like cable, use upwards of the full 19mbps of bandwidth.
> 
> So, you do a couple of TiVo Mini streams, and you're already eating way into the 75mbps bandwidth available on FIOS internet, especially if you're using MoCA to get the FIOS signal into the house. If you have a pair of Premieres each with three TiVo Minis, and a whole backbone built out of MoCA, you could be in for some serious bandwidth issues already. Yes, that's an extreme case, but my point is, unlike GigE, MoCA doesn't just have effectively unlimited bandwidth, and while it's reliable and fast, you can fairly easily run out.
> 
> More tech-saavy users would run CAT-5 from the ONT to the router, or they would throw a band-pass filter in between two segments of the MoCA network to isolate them and then cross them back over through Ethernet, but not everyone would know to do that, or have the right wiring configuration to be able to do that.


My MOCA speeds are about 240Mbps up and down. I have 3 Tivos on Moca and 2 computers on Moca and have no speed issues with all of them pulling data... and also TV runs on a different frequency that Moca both with verizon and most companies.

My TV here runs at about 860mhz and my Moca Network Operates just above 1Gig.


----------



## spotterman26

DigitalDawn said:


> Spotterman,
> 
> Can you confirm that the Mini is using Infrared rather than an RF remote. To test this you can put your hand over the front of the Mini remote to see if it still works.


Hand over the front of the Mini, it still recognizes remote commands.


----------



## Austin Bike

P42 said:


> Maybe the Best Buy TVs are or were meant to be that. What ever happened to them, and what was their purpose?


When I was in japan last, they had tons of TVs with 1tb hard drives in them


----------



## morac

Austin Bike said:


> When I was in japan last, they had tons of TVs with 1tb hard drives in them


In Japan, toilets have hard drives in them.


----------



## spotterman26

Dan203 said:


> spotterman26 - what happens if you setup the Q to only allocate one tuner for network devices? Perhaps that's where the 1.5 hour time out comes into play? Maybe after 1.5 hours it relinquishes the tuner so the other one can use it? If that's the case I wonder if simply going into the menus by pressing TiVo would relinquish it immediately. (if it has the little preview window you might need to press Slow to turn it off, or turn it off permanently in settings)


Just got around to trying this. I set the Q to "Allow 1 tuner" and checked both Minis first. They were both connected. I put one in standby, and selected Live TV on the other. Live tv worked, just fine, so I went to the other mini and hit live tv and got this message:



The Mini that shows this message can access my Q, but not access Live TV. The other Mini gets Live TV and can access my Q also. And now my Q has it's 3rd tuner back.

Here is the standby option on the menu:

Here is the standby image, this goes away after a few seconds:

And the front of the Mini when in standby mode:


----------



## sbiller

spotterman26 said:


> Just got around to trying this. I set the Q to "Allow 1 tuner" and checked both Minis first. They were both connected. I put one in standby, and selected Live TV on the other. Live tv worked, just fine, so I went to the other mini and hit live tv and got this message:
> 
> 
> 
> The Mini that shows this message can access my Q, but not access Live TV. The other Mini gets Live TV and can access my Q also. And now my Q has it's 3rd tuner back.
> 
> Here is the standby option on the menu:
> 
> Here is the standby image, this goes away after a few seconds:
> 
> And the front of the Mini when in standby mode:


Not bad... I could easily live with this solution.


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> My MOCA speeds are about 240Mbps up and down. I have 3 Tivos on Moca and 2 computers on Moca and have no speed issues with all of them pulling data... and also TV runs on a different frequency that Moca both with verizon and most companies.
> 
> My TV here runs at about 860mhz and my Moca Network Operates just above 1Gig.


Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.

Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.


----------



## NotNowChief

OK, sooooooo now this is just getting absolutely ridiculous.

Why are they not selling this thing for retail yet?

What's the excuse now? Delayed again until summer 2013?


----------



## sbiller

NotNowChief said:


> OK, sooooooo now this is just getting absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> Why are they not selling this thing for retail yet?
> 
> What's the excuse now? Delayed again until summer 2013?


They probably want to gauge Suddenlink problems before opening the floodgates. We're hopefully weeks away...


----------



## DigitalDawn

Definitely in March. I recently received a notice for a TiVo retail training session. Mine is set for Tuesday.


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.
> 
> Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.


The newer Verizon routers for over the last year have a Gig Switch built in....

Even Still your bandwidth is point to point/router, not saturated by everything else.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.
> 
> Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.


Even with Verizon MoCA you can get speeds faster than 75Mb/s. When you have two or three or four MoCA devices in the Network, the maximum speeds are actually faster than with only one MoCA device. But most of the MoCA adapters only have 100BT connections so the backbone bandwidth will exceed 100Mb/s but the actual connection to the device will not exceed it. I had a couple of Dlink MoCA adapters along with the FiOS MoCA in use for a short while when I was messing around with MoCA on my Elites. The backbone bandwidth easily exceeded 100Mb/s. But it did not exceed it to the point that I would get speeds from all those devices on MoCA that I would match the speeds I got with a GigE Backbone(when the devices were transferring concurrently). So I took those devices off MoCA and went back to Ethernet connections for those devices.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> Not bad... I could easily live with this solution.


Hmmm.... agreed. This is a half-way point between truly dynamic tuner allocation and permanent tuner allocation.

Now lets release this puppy to the general public.


----------



## NotNowChief

mr_smits said:


> Hmmm.... agreed. This is a half-way point between truly dynamic tuner allocation and permanent tuner allocation.
> 
> Now lets release this puppy to the general public.


Nobody can half-bake something quite like TiVo!


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Megazone's original reporting mentioned that Minis would share from a pool of tuners, so it's not surprising. Knowing this, I had thought we wouldn't be limited to 2 Minis, but I guess we still will be anyway. At least for now (XL6).


----------



## h2oskierc

NotNowChief said:


> Nobody can half-bake something quite like TiVo!


Exactly, like not supporting us lowly two-tuner DVR owners...


----------



## lew2

davezatz said:


> Well that's F-ed up... I think. They ran my photo, my hand, and my wedding ring.


You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.

They wouldn't be happy if someone stole cable service from them, so it's hypocritical that they'll steal your intellectual property and likeness with no compunction.


----------



## jjd_87

lew2 said:


> You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.
> 
> They wouldn't be happy if someone stole cable service from them, so it's hypocritical that they'll steal your intellectual property and likeness with no compunction.


This is the same awful cable company that shuts your Internet off for torrenting tv programs. I hate them. But I love TiVo. Common mini!!!


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> The newer Verizon routers for over the last year have a Gig Switch built in....
> 
> Even Still your bandwidth is point to point/router, not saturated by everything else.


But where would you offload that? Or saturate two and a half endpoint adapters with a gig source hardwired to the router?



aaronwt said:


> Even with Verizon MoCA you can get speeds faster than 75Mb/s. When you have two or three or four MoCA devices in the Network, the maximum speeds are actually faster than with only one MoCA device. But most of the MoCA adapters only have 100BT connections so the backbone bandwidth will exceed 100Mb/s but the actual connection to the device will not exceed it. I had a couple of Dlink MoCA adapters along with the FiOS MoCA in use for a short while when I was messing around with MoCA on my Elites. The backbone bandwidth easily exceeded 100Mb/s. But it did not exceed it to the point that I would get speeds from all those devices on MoCA that I would match the speeds I got with a GigE Backbone(when the devices were transferring concurrently). So I took those devices off MoCA and went back to Ethernet connections for those devices.


Yeah, the backbone ends up serving a similar function to the backplane on an Ethernet switch in that case... 240mbps gives it a lot of breathing room even with a bunch of devices flinging HD video around plus internet...

We're coming a long way in getting networking for people who don't have CAT-5 run everywhere up to the level that hard wired CAT-5 would give. Of course 240mbps on a backbone is a long way off from 1gbps to any port, BUT for most residential users, it is more than enough.


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> But where would you offload that? Or saturate two and a half endpoint adapters with a gig source hardwired to the router?
> 
> Yeah, the backbone ends up serving a similar function to the backplane on an Ethernet switch in that case... 240mbps gives it a lot of breathing room even with a bunch of devices flinging HD video around plus internet...
> 
> We're coming a long way in getting networking for people who don't have CAT-5 run everywhere up to the level that hard wired CAT-5 would give. Of course 240mbps on a backbone is a long way off from 1gbps to any port, BUT for most residential users, it is more than enough.


Dont forget, with the exception of the 4 and the XL4, the rest of the line up only had a 100Mbit ethernet port.... so no matter what you are limited to that....


----------



## davezatz

lew2 said:


> You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.


I sent them (and CED Magazine) a polite note and they appropriately added a photo credit. You'd be surprised how often this happens. (Or maybe not.) Google's got a decent DMCA tool which you can use to request a de-indexing the offending page, which I've been forced to employ on several occasions (normally in relation to posts reproduced in their entirety) - but this is a better scenario and outcome, as it's win/win. They learn something about grabbing content without attribution and retain a decent, representative pic, and I get a little link love. Symbiotic is best.


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> Dont forget, with the exception of the 4 and the XL4, the rest of the line up only had a 100Mbit ethernet port.... so no matter what you are limited to that....


I was thinking more in general than just for TiVo. Some people are using MoCA as a backbone for their whole network...


----------



## jmpage2

Bigg said:


> I was thinking more in general than just for TiVo. Some people are using MoCA as a backbone for their whole network...


I suppose that for someone who did not want to spend the money to back-haul CAT5e that might be true.... CAT5e and gigabit switches are cheap though, and UTP cable is pretty easy to run to most locations.


----------



## Arcady

I'm using MoCA for a main link within my house, because running cat5 is impossible. I suppose ethernet would be faster, but this is an upgrade from the Wi-Fi repeaters we had in place beforehand. It also allowed me to remove at least 10 devices from Wi-Fi, which improved wireless for the laptops and phones that still rely on it.

I only run 100Mb ethernet anyway, so there's no loss there.


----------



## Ckought

jmpage2 said:


> I suppose that for someone who did not want to spend the money to back-haul CAT5e that might be true.... CAT5e and gigabit switches are cheap though, and UTP cable is pretty easy to run to most locations.


Not if you rent. You have to live with the wiring you have available.


----------



## compnurd

Ckought said:


> Not if you rent. You have to live with the wiring you have available.


exactly. i am renting a condo right now while my house is built so MOCA is my only option and has caused no slow downs


----------



## mr_smits

spotterman26 said:


> Just got around to trying this.


Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.


----------



## davezatz

mr_smits said:


> Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.


I may have a Kill-A-Watt somewhere if spotterman wants to try. Can't recall if I already gave it away though. Will check tonight if need be.


----------



## jamesjones_det

mr_smits said:


> Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.


I measured my Premier 4 with a Kill-A-Watt meter at about ~18 watts with the TV off and ~22 with the TV on (it bounced around a bit those were the averages).

I would image the mini would use less then that, but I was surprised to see the PS3 pulling ~10 watts when in standby too so...


----------



## spotterman26

mr_smits said:


> Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.





davezatz said:


> I may have a Kill-A-Watt somewhere if spotterman wants to try. Can't recall if I already gave it away though. Will check tonight if need be.


No, I don't have one. I'd be glad to check it out of somebody can get one to me.


----------



## tbielowicz

So now we just have to wait for this to come to retail. Seems like late March or early April (hopefully). 

Now the question is the pricing model. 

Tivo Mini cost - ??

Will there be an additional service charge or will it be baked into the Tivo Mini? If not:

Monthly Service - ??
Lifetime Service - ??

Tivo can really screw this one up if they price it incorrectly. I personally would rather pay $199 for the mini including lifetime service. This is a fair price IMO. 

Plus it would allow them to capture the greatest revenue. If they price it higher, their volume would be significantly lower and not lock in current Tivo owners. They would also see a nice bump in sales from those with previous gen models that have been on the fence. This could be a game changer for them...Especially if they make this compelling enough to keep others from going with Dish or At&t which already offer whole house DVR services.


----------



## Dan203

We don't yet know the exact prices but we do know that there will be a service charge. We assume they will offer both a monthly and lifetime option.

Based current pricing schemes I'm betting the Mini will be more like $250-$300 with lifetime service. Or $100-$150 + $6/mo for monthly. But that's just a wild guess. We wont know for sure until they say something, or someone leaks the info.


----------



## Time_Lord

Dan203 said:


> Based current pricing schemes I'm betting the Mini will be more like $250-$300 with lifetime service. Or $100-$150 + $6/mo for monthly. But that's just a wild guess. We wont know for sure until they say something, or someone leaks the info.


If you guess is right I think it may be a tough sell, why?

Right now its going to require a 4 tuner unit which costs more than the 2 tuner unit, plus its used availability is limited so you're at full cost of $200 to $250 (or more for the XL) based on promotions. Which is $100 more than the 2 tuner unit.

Next I can purchase a second unit (Premiere) which gives me all the capabilities of the mini *WITHOUT* giving up a tuner for $150, or $100 for a factory refurbished one. Next I need service on the second unit (first is a given so I'm not including its price) a second unit costs $400 for lifetime so total cost is between $500 and $550 if its refurbished or new.

Further used units with lifetime service are selling at roughly $450.

So if I went for 2 Premieres (not 4 tuner units) my cost would be (excluding lifetime service on the first unit which service is required regardless)

$300 - 2 new units
$400 - lifetime on the second unit
$700 - total (knock $100 off the total for 2 factory referbished units)

Mini -
$250 - Premiere 4
$250 - $300 Mini (est)
$500 - $550 total

so the savings at worst is $200 and at best $100 plus the loss of a tuner. Ok yes you save 1 cablecard rental, for me that's $4 per month ($48 per year)

So for the $100 I'd buy a second unit.

Then again we can all hope the FCC gets everybody motivated for steaming compatibility between different vendors and I'll just keep VZ's STB for $6 per month


----------



## crxssi

spotterman26 said:


> No, I don't have one. I'd be glad to check it out of somebody can get one to me.


http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...F8&qid=1361576160&sr=8-2&keywords=kill-o-watt

It is only $18 now! You should just buy one- everyone should have one... it is really handy


----------



## aaronwt

crxssi said:


> http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...F8&qid=1361576160&sr=8-2&keywords=kill-o-watt
> 
> It is only $18 now! You should just buy one- everyone should have one... it is really handy


Or ten 

I have several of the Kill-a-watt meters but then I started using the Belkin ones

Belkin - Conserve Insight Energy Use Monitor

(I got a bunch of them when BestBuy had a super low sale price)

which have the display attached to a several foot long cord. So it's not as much of a pain to read the display to see how much power is being used. It's amazing how much power some devices use while in standby.


----------



## Bigg

Ckought said:


> Not if you rent. You have to live with the wiring you have available.


Exactly.



jamesjones_det said:


> I measured my Premier 4 with a Kill-A-Watt meter at about ~18 watts with the TV off and ~22 with the TV on (it bounced around a bit those were the averages).
> 
> I would image the mini would use less then that, but I was surprised to see the PS3 pulling ~10 watts when in standby too so...


That's pretty good for a Premiere, considering it has (highly optimized) all the components of a PC.


----------



## spotterman26

aaronwt said:


> Belkin - Conserve Insight Energy Use Monitor
> 
> (I got a bunch of them when BestBuy had a super low sale price)
> 
> which have the display attached to a several foot long cord. So it's not as much of a pain to read the display to see how much power is being used. It's amazing how much power some devices use while in standby.


I'll check around, couldn't find the Kill a Watt local, might have better luck with the Belkin.


----------



## jmatero

Sorry but if the mini is more than $149 and/or has a subscription, I'll pass.


----------



## aaronwt

jmatero said:


> Sorry but if the mini is more than $149 and/or has a subscription, I'll pass.


They can't price it too low without alienating their cable company customers. Since the cable comapnies will probably be charging a hefty monthly rental fee for it.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> They can't price it too low without alienating their cable company customers. Since the cable comapnies will probably be charging a hefty monthly rental fee for it.


Suddenlink is charging $6 or $7 per month with zero up-front cost. I think TiVo could price this very low and not risk alienating their cable operators. I hope TiVo decides to be very aggressive on retail pricing since this could significantly boost retail subscriber numbers.


----------



## moyekj

sbiller said:


> Suddenlink is charging $6 or $7 per month with zero up-front cost. I think TiVo could price this very low and not risk alienating their cable operators. I hope TiVo decides to be very aggressive on retail pricing since this could significantly boost retail subscriber numbers.


 According to the article the TiVo Stream is available for a comparatively ripoff rental price of $10/month yet Stream can be bought retail for ~ $129. So trying to predict up front cost with lifetime based on extrapolation from a monthly rental price wouldn't work in this case since it would put Mini at under $100 which isn't at all realistic.


----------



## Dan203

Under $100 for the box plus a service fee is conceivable. They sell refurbished 2 tuner TiVos for $60. They're willing to subsidize hardware as long as they make it up in service fees. Plus this could also boost sales of 4 tuner units. I'm betting the box will be relatively cheap. However I expect the service to be $6/mo or $150-200 for lifetime.


----------



## atmuscarella

In my opinion the purpose of the mini is to help sell DVRs. They are not trying to compete with streaming media devices like the Roku or to sell minis for the sake of selling minis. 

In my opinion the deals will be bundles with new 4 (6?) tuner DVRs. Stand alone minis will have a higher price - my guess with lifetime service is $250+/-


----------



## slowbiscuit

jmatero said:


> Sorry but if the mini is more than $149 and/or has a subscription, I'll pass.


You'll be passing then, you forgot this is Tivo and there's no way it will be that low without a sub.


----------



## TimA

tbielowicz said:


> So now we just have to wait for this to come to retail. Seems like late March or early April (hopefully).
> 
> Now the question is the pricing model.
> 
> Tivo Mini cost - ??
> 
> Will there be an additional service charge or will it be baked into the Tivo Mini? If not:
> 
> Monthly Service - ??
> Lifetime Service - ??
> 
> Tivo can really screw this one up if they price it incorrectly. I personally would rather pay $199 for the mini including lifetime service. This is a fair price IMO.
> 
> Plus it would allow them to capture the greatest revenue. If they price it higher, their volume would be significantly lower and not lock in current Tivo owners. They would also see a nice bump in sales from those with previous gen models that have been on the fence. This could be a game changer for them...Especially if they make this compelling enough to keep others from going with Dish or At&t which already offer whole house DVR services.


I find it hard to justify a service fee for the Tivo Mini if it doesn't have a true dynamic tuner capability. I'm already paying for the tuner and guide service for the tuner the Mini uses. Why charge me again?

I guess the answer is "because they can".

Tim


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> They can't price it too low without alienating their cable company customers. Since the cable comapnies will probably be charging a hefty monthly rental fee for it.


But the question then is, will the retail stream pair with an MSO-provided Premiere? If it doesn't, then they are two separate universes. They can still allow Premiere-to-Premiere transfers.

The Stream should be about $200. That's where the MCE extenders have been, and it's a premium over things like Roku because of the integration with a local DVR.

The concept of service with the Mini is nuts. Even with the Premieres, it's stupid, as they are just hiding $500 of the cost of a new Premiere on another web page. It's sort of bait-and-switchy.


----------



## SullyND

TimA said:


> I'm already paying for the tuner and guide service for the tuner the Mini uses. Why charge me again?


Because you are not paying for the tuner and guide service for the tuner the mini uses?


----------



## sbiller

SullyND said:


> Because you are not paying for the tuner and guide service for the tuner the mini uses?


Because TiVo has to pay Tribune Media Services (TMS) for access to the guide data on another device?


----------



## sbiller

In reality, TiVo could easily sell the Mini at retail without a subscription fee. The problem with that model is the way TiVo is forced to account for Mini's from a Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) perspective. If TiVo sells the TiVo Mini without a subscription, they would only be able to count a Mini box as hardware revenue. On the other hand, if the Mini provides recurring monthly revenue or lifetime revenue amortized over 66 months, then TiVo can count each Mini box as a retail TiVo subscriber. In other words, TiVo maximizes the value of the company by charging some sort of nominal recurring fee for the TiVo Mini. IMHO, this is the primary reason TiVo is charging a recurring subscription fee for the Mini.


----------



## magnus

sbiller said:


> Because TiVo has to pay Tribune Media Services (TMS) for access to the guide data on another device?


How is that working from the iPhone and iPad that I have that is getting access to guide data for the my Premiere? I don't pay a monthly fee or service for each of them. If that is the argument then it just doesn't hold water.


----------



## sbiller

magnus said:


> How is that working from the iPhone and iPad that I have that is getting access to guide data for the my Premiere? If that is the argument then it just doesn't hold water.


I don't know the answer however when I asked one of my sources at TiVo the following question,



> Will TiVo pay a monthly fee to Tribune for every Mini deployed or does the agreement allow whole home access to guide data via the primary DVR license?


The answer I received was,



> Not something I can share.


IMHO, this non-answer was an answer.


----------



## magnus

Yep, my guess would be that because the Mini is hooked up to a TV that they will treat it more like a Tivo (with regard to a subscription). Not saying that it's right but that seems to be the deal.


----------



## atmuscarella

Bigg said:


> But the question then is, will the retail stream pair with an MSO-provided Premiere? If it doesn't, then they are two separate universes. They can still allow Premiere-to-Premiere transfers.
> 
> The Stream should be about $200. That's where the MCE extenders have been, and it's a premium over things like Roku because of the integration with a local DVR.
> 
> The concept of service with the Mini is nuts. Even with the Premieres, it's stupid, as they are just hiding $500 of the cost of a new Premiere on another web page. It's sort of bait-and-switchy.


You appear to have been around a long time - so you should be very familiar with how TiVo charges for their DVRs it has been the same since the beginning (having separate hardware and service charges). Having TiVo do the same thing with the Mini shouldn't really be all that surprising. Pay TV providers and cell phone companies do the same thing - move some or all of the hardware costs to on going monthly fees, at least with TiVo you can pay everything upfront and be done with it.


----------



## L David Matheny

sbiller said:


> Because TiVo has to pay Tribune Media Services (TMS) for access to the guide data on another device?


If that's true, it would indicate that the Tribune Media Services lawyers have made fools of the TiVo lawyers. There shouldn't be a fee just for remote viewing. As others have mentioned, the iPhone, iPad, etc, require no fees. I don't pay a fee when I use Zap2it.


----------



## puffdaddy

L David Matheny said:


> There shouldn't be a fee just for remote viewing. As others have mentioned


Do we know whether the mini (at this point) draws its guide data remotely from the host premiere, or whether it autonomously downloads its own guide data from tivo?

If it's the latter, then paying Tribune makes sense.

Spotterman26, when you went through the guided setup for your minis, did you see the "downloading guide data for 24 hours), or any messages like that?


----------



## sbiller

puffdaddy said:


> Do we know whether the mini (at this point) draws its guide data remotely from the host premiere, or whether it autonomously downloads its own guide data from tivo?
> 
> If it's the latter, then paying Tribune makes sense.
> 
> Spotterman26, when you went through the guided setup for your minis, did you see the "downloading guide data for 24 hours), or any messages like that?


I believe the Mini draws guide data from its host Premiere box. I don't think it stores any guide data locally. I understand why you'll think TiVo has crappy lawyers because they've signed a poor contract with TMS, etc. The fact of the matter remains that TiVo does have to pay some recurring monthly costs associated with supporting a Mini. Could they amortize those costs across the lifetime of the Mini - absolutely. From a business perspective, it makes sense for them to charge a nominal fee so they can recognize Mini revenue over the course of a Mini's lifetime.

As a wise TiVo blogger said to me via email earlier today,



> Ongoing subs makes business look healthy, helps also sell ads and viewing data. Non investors don't care about the why, [they] just want a good/fair deal.


----------



## moyekj

puffdaddy said:


> Do we know whether the mini (at this point) draws its guide data remotely from the host premiere, or whether it autonomously downloads its own guide data from tivo?
> 
> If it's the latter, then paying Tribune makes sense.
> 
> Spotterman26, when you went through the guided setup for your minis, did you see the "downloading guide data for 24 hours), or any messages like that?


 Highly unlikely the Mini downloads guide data and stores it locally since there is very little storage on the Mini for that kind of thing (remember no hard drive). Since Mini appears to be using same HDUI software as series 4 units it does communicate with tivo.com servers for some guide information. But the iOS and Android apps do as well.
I suppose a quick test for this is to take the "Q" host TiVo off the network and see if the Mini is at all functional as far as doing searches and bringing up the guide, etc. If it has local guide information or is using tivo.com to get the information the Mini should still work independent of the host. My guess is Mini won't have access to any guide information without the host which would indicate it's totally dependent on the host for that info.

Far more likely, as has been stated, TiVo chooses to charge a subscription "because they can" and they think it will help their business model. Time will tell if that is a wise decision. At the end of the day it's the final cost that matters - they can try to justify the cost any way they want but I don't buy the pay for listings argument.


----------



## aaronwt

L David Matheny said:


> If that's true, it would indicate that the Tribune Media Services lawyers have made fools of the TiVo lawyers. There shouldn't be a fee just for remote viewing. As others have mentioned, the iPhone, iPad, etc, require no fees. I don't pay a fee when I use Zap2it.


I thought the difference was that those devices aren't connected directly to the Tv to use? The Mini is designed to be directly connected to a TV. And that could be the difference and why they would be charged a fee.


----------



## crxssi

aaronwt said:


> I thought the difference was that those devices aren't connected directly to the Tv to use? The Mini is designed to be directly connected to a TV. And that could be the difference and why they would be charged a fee.


What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?

The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.


----------



## spotterman26

puffdaddy said:


> Spotterman26, when you went through the guided setup for your minis, did you see the "downloading guide data for 24 hours), or any messages like that?


Negative.


----------



## spotterman26

mr_smits said:


> Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.


5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.

EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.


----------



## lessd

crxssi said:


> What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?
> 
> The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.


The key is your ability to watch a program, the word TV means nothing by itself, it is your ability to watch on* any display device *will makes you a consumer of that program. The cost is for content not display size you may watch it on. A typical cable co may give you 500+ channels of programing to watch, if it is delivered to your home the cable co pays, nobody cares (except you) if you watch it on a 3 inch or 110 inch display.


----------



## atmuscarella

crxssi said:


> What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?
> 
> The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.


Actually in the US what a TV is, is legally defined. In the US for something to be legally be called a TV it has to have tuners built into it that can receive television broadcasts, so no your computer monitor is not a TV and neither is your tablet. That is why when some manufactures left tuners out of their early HD devices they couldn't call them a TV but had to refer to them has monitors.

However your point is well taken that in the context of a mini it can transmit a signal to any displace device with the correct input and it is really irrelevant if the device is a TV or not.


----------



## slowbiscuit

L David Matheny said:


> If that's true, it would indicate that the Tribune Media Services lawyers have made fools of the TiVo lawyers. There shouldn't be a fee just for remote viewing. As others have mentioned, the iPhone, iPad, etc, require no fees. I don't pay a fee when I use Zap2it.


+1000. Kevin hit the nail on the head - if Tivo charges a sub fee for the Mini it's because they can for business reasons, not because it is justified by any ongoing costs. Give it up, Sam.


----------



## SullyND

@davezatz on twitter:



> At least one retailer will receive TiVo Mini training next week and we're pretty sure the monthly fee will be $6. No word on hardware cost.


----------



## astrohip

sbiller said:


> The fact of the matter remains that TiVo does have to pay some recurring monthly costs associated with supporting a Mini.


What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?


----------



## sbiller

astrohip said:


> What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?


It take some extrapolation from TiVo's Service Revenue and Cost of Service Revenue numbers to conclude that the cost per box is less than $2/mo... probably closer to $1.5/mo.


----------



## compnurd

astrohip said:


> What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?


same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..

Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.

The 6 bucks is to make them money


----------



## jmpage2

compnurd said:


> same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..
> 
> Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.
> 
> The 6 bucks is to make them money


And more to the point, the recurring revenue stream is to get wall street excited. Too bad they won't sell many.


----------



## sbiller

compnurd said:


> same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..
> 
> Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.
> 
> The 6 bucks is to make them money


At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.


----------



## jmpage2

sbiller said:


> At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.


And over three years the "TCO" of that box is $320... which, for a box that is nothing but a parasite seems very high to this particular TiVo owner.


----------



## morac

jmpage2 said:


> And over three years the "TCO" of that box is $320... which, for a box that is nothing but a parasite seems very high to this particular TiVo owner.


At that rate it would likely put the lifetime service price at $200 which would give a purchase price of $299. That seems on par with what TiVo charges for other products, which is about 50% more than what people would expect the cost to be.


----------



## jmpage2

morac said:


> At that rate it would likely put the lifetime service price at $200 which would give a purchase price of $299. That seems on par with what TiVo charges for other products, which is about 50% more than what people would expect the cost to be.


If the lifetime cost is $200 then I will consider it..... when they are trying to get rid of refurb Minis for $25.


----------



## sbiller

At $6/mo, the Mini will save me significant money over a Verizon FiOS extender which is $11/mo or a TiVo Premiere box which is $12.99(box)+$3.95(CableCARD). Of course, the Mini will have an upfront cost that will need to be amortized over the life of the box. 

I think it will be a competitive offering at a $5.95/mo level. 

TiVo will likely amortize the $199 product lifetime cost over 66 months making their ARPU $3/mo for a lifetime subscriber.


----------



## sbiller

jmpage2 said:


> If the lifetime cost is $200 then I will consider it..... when they are trying to get rid of refurb Minis for $25.


Keep dreaming. I would be very surprised to see a $25/mini for a very long time. Refurbs will like be $69 to $79 if the regular box is $99.


----------



## jmpage2

sbiller said:


> At $6/mo, the Mini will save me significant money over a Verizon FiOS extender which is $11/mo or a TiVo Premiere box which is $12.99(box)+$3.95(CableCARD). Of course, the Mini will have an upfront cost that will need to be amortized over the life of the box.
> 
> I think it will be a competitive offering at a $5.95/mo level.
> 
> TiVo will likely amortize the $199 product lifetime cost over 66 months making their ARPU $3/mo for a lifetime subscriber.


I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;

1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.

While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. They would be adding the Mini to extend their TiVo out to other rooms in the house that might be served by "free" cable boxes or basic cable, etc.

For those users, a $299 TiVo Mini with lifetime service might be a hard pill to swallow.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.


I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).


----------



## sbiller

jmpage2 said:


> I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;
> 
> 1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
> 2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
> 3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.
> 
> While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. They would be adding the Mini to extend their TiVo out to other rooms in the house that might be served by "free" cable boxes or basic cable, etc.
> 
> For those users, a $299 TiVo Mini with lifetime service might be a hard pill to swallow.


#3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.

Keep in mind that the average home in the US has 2.5 set top boxes. My speculation is that the average TiVo home has 1 TiVo box and 1.5 cable operator supplied boxes.

Is there such a thing as a "free" cable box any more? FiOS charges $6.99 for a DTA...


----------



## jmpage2

davezatz said:


> I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).


I agree. In fact I'd say $149 is more likely, with a lifetime cost of $200-$250 putting the total cost of the box at $400 or so.

The frustrating thing for me is that, while I have no problem affording this box financially, I have a problem rewarding what I see as bad/moronic behavior on TiVos part.

I think my Slingbox and Slingcatcher are going to get use for quite a while longer. Amazingly my Slingcatcher does not have a monthly or lifetime service fee and lets me do almost everything the TiVo Mini does.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).


Excellent point and you're probably right but the Stream doesn't have a subscription fee associated with it. Perhaps will see them drop the price of the Stream to $99 upon launch of the Mini.


----------



## crxssi

jmpage2 said:


> I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;
> 
> 1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
> 2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
> 3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.
> 
> While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. .


Yep, I have said that several different ways in the thread already. Some people might be replacing a cable box or other machine. But many people (like myself) would just be adding new functionality. So 1-3 don't apply at all. I don't think I can justify $300 TCO for a device I would use occasionally to watch something in the bedroom or exercise room (especially since right now I use RF and IR extender back to the TiVo in the great room.


----------



## jmpage2

sbiller said:


> #3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.


How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.

That idea is dead on arrival.


----------



## magnus

jmpage2 said:


> I agree. In fact I'd say $149 is more likely, with a lifetime cost of $200-$250 putting the total cost of the box at $400 or so.
> 
> The frustrating thing for me is that, while I have no problem affording this box financially, I have a problem rewarding what I see as bad/moronic behavior on TiVos part.
> 
> I think my Slingbox and Slingcatcher are going to get use for quite a while longer. Amazingly my Slingcatcher does not have a monthly or lifetime service fee and lets me do almost everything the TiVo Mini does.


Yep, unless the Mini gets apps like Netflix or Amazon then I would say that your current setup is as good as the Mini.


----------



## sbiller

jmpage2 said:


> How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.
> 
> That idea is dead on arrival.


I hope you're right but I could see Comcast trying to figure out a way to prevent the Mini from receiving XFINITY On Demand without the AO fee. Since XFINITY is sent via QAM to the host DVR and routed to the Mini you are correct that it should be difficult for them to justify the fee. I still think Comcast and others view extenders connected to TVs differently from 2nd screen apps that support streaming of video.


----------



## Test

jmpage2 said:


> How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.
> 
> That idea is dead on arrival.


How can Comcast charge for something they shouldn't? Apparently with subscription/monthly fees there are no rules. TiVo will be doing a similar thing if they charge a monthly fee to let the TiVo mini run while all it does is suck data from a box you already paid a sub for.


----------



## lessd

sbiller said:


> #3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.
> 
> Keep in mind that the average home in the US has 2.5 set top boxes. My speculation is that the average TiVo home has 1 TiVo box and 1.5 cable operator supplied boxes.
> 
> Is there such a thing as a "free" cable box any more? FiOS charges $6.99 for a DTA...


My Triple play from Comcast comes with one HD cable box, it may not be free but if I turn it in I don't save any money, so to me it is free, with the package I have, for my cable cards, for some reason, Comcast does not charge me any AO fee, the bill at one time had a line for the A/O fee that was $0, now the bill does not even have a line for the A/O fee. I do have 4 CC and just pay for the cards ($1.15/month/per card)


----------



## jmpage2

magnus said:


> Yep, unless the Mini gets apps like Netflix or Amazon then I would say that your current setup is as good as the Mini.


Well, it's not as good because there are a lot of input delays with the SlingCatcher and the video is a little over-compressed. If the Mini was priced sensibly ($149-$199 with no subscription fee) I would buy 2-3 of them.

This is just bad behavior on TiVos part and I don't think I can be a part of it.


----------



## jrtroo

lessd said:


> My Triple play from Comcast comes with one HD cable box, it may not be free but if I turn it in I don't save any money, so to me it is free, with the package I have, for my cable cards, for some reason, Comcast does not charge me any AO fee, the bill at one time had a line for the A/O fee that was $0, now the bill does not even have a line for the A/O fee. I do have 4 CC and just pay for the cards ($1.15/month/per card)


You are one lucky user. At some point, my guess is that they will find this and restructure your pricing. Hopefully for you, that is no time soon.


----------



## aaronwt

SullyND said:


> @davezatz on twitter:





> At least one retailer will receive TiVo Mini training next week and we're pretty sure the monthly fee will be $6. No word on hardware cost.


Sounds good then. I will be getting at least one Mini with the monthly service.


----------



## innocentfreak

jmpage2 said:


> How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.
> 
> That idea is dead on arrival.


They could call it a service fee.

http://stopthecap.com/2013/02/21/comcast-calls-1-99-charge-for-digital-adapters-a-service-fee-to-avoid-fcc-complications/


----------



## davezatz

spotterman26 said:


> 5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.
> 
> EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.


Cool, what did you ultimately use to measure it? I assume live TV, recorded TV, and screen saver would be the common modes. Doubt standby will see much use.


----------



## overFEDEXed

jrtroo said:


> You are one lucky user. At some point, my guess is that they will find this and restructure your pricing. Hopefully for you, that is no time soon.


I recently downgraded my Cox Cable Sub, from an $80 a month plan, to the $35 Economy plan. That includes channels 2-99, thirty-two, four-digit, HD channels and Music channels.

They were charging me $2 for cable cards x 3, plus the Digital Gateway fee or Advanced Tv fee, one at $5, the other two at $4. That comes to $19 a month, just for the fees.

When I called up to switch plans, the csr said the the $35 INCLUDED all the Card fees.
Anyway, I got my bill yesterday, *for the month*. It was $27, for the Economy plan and $6 for the cable cards. No Advanced tv fees! That was it! Now I did lose some channels, as I explained earlier in this thread, but this has me rethinking the Mini.

I still would like to have a couple, but like most everyone else, I will wait and see what the pricing will be.


----------



## HazelW

I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?


----------



## atmuscarella

HazelW said:


> I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?


Unless you are just dying to remove a single cable card fee I would see no reason at all.

And that is the point, I do not believe TiVo will be trying to sell Minis for the sake of selling Minis. I also believe TiVo has no desire to have users replace existing TiVo DVRs with Minis either.

Again in my opinion the purpose of the Mini is 2 fold: 

To provide TiVo's cable company partners with a competitive whole home system to lease to their customers.
To help sell new 4 (6?) tuner stand alone TiVo DVRs most likely by providing package deals. 
But until we see how the Mini is actually priced and marketed everything is just speculation.


----------



## compnurd

Or people like me who are newer and would rather pay 6 bucks for a kids TV ALA mini, then 14 bucks a month for a full fledged premiere


----------



## atmuscarella

compnurd said:


> Or people like me who are newer and would rather pay 6 bucks for a kids TV ALA mini, then 14 bucks a month for a full fledged premiere


The situations like HazelW's where people might consider replacing an existing TiVo DVR on subscription with a Mini, yours where people would not buy another TiVo DVR anyways, or the worst one where someone would have bought another Premiere but instead buy's a Mini are exactly why I think the Mini will be priced fairly high.

In all of those cases TiVo gains nothing unless they make it on the Mini's sale and subscription and in two of them actually lose money on other transactions that has to be made from the Mini's sale.

The only situation where the Mini can be sold with little or no profit is when it causes the sale of a new DVRs that wouldn't have happened without the Mini being available.


----------



## innocentfreak

In my case the Mini will result in an upgrade. My mom has my two old TiVo HDs so she will get my Elite and a mini. I will end up buying whatever replaces the XL4 which from what we know is usually less of a subsidized model.

Until the Mini though she is content with the TiVo HDs, and I will upgrade when we have a XL4 replacement.


----------



## Loach

atmuscarella said:


> The only situation where the Mini can be sold with little or no profit is when it causes the sale of a new DVRs that wouldn't have happened without the Mini being available.


That's sort of the situation I'm in. I've just recently dipped my toe in the Tivo waters with my purchase of a Premiere 4. But my ideal whole-home solution is probably to add a 2nd Premiere and 1 or 2 Minis. I'm hoping to see some decent bundle deals.


----------



## SullyND

innocentfreak said:


> Until the Mini though she is content with the TiVo HDs, and I will upgrade when we have a XL4 replacement.


My TiVoHD been very very good to me. Why upgrade?

HDUI? meh.
More Efficient? Meh.
MRS? (To another TiVo) Meh.
More tuners? Maybe.
TiVo Stream? Maybe.

Mini (At a decent price, including lifetime) Yep!

On it's own the Mini doesn't push it over, but cumulatively with the benefits above could finally push me to upgrade.


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## mdbundy

I'm with you, Sully. I have a TivoHD and have no compelling reason to upgrade at this point. I'm happy with on two-tuner DVR in my family room. But if there were an affordable way for me to put an extender in my basement, master bedroom, and guest room? I'd upgrade to a premier and buy three minis. 

Though I'm not sure that I'd be willing to pay monthly subs for the privilege. I don't have lifetime on my TivoHD now but have been thinking about giving TiVo up bc the value really isn't there fore anymore.


----------



## sbiller

TiVo has disclosed that the churn (cancellation) rate on TiVo HD is much higher than the TiVo Premiere so I think you'll are the exception. TiVo Premiere, even with its sluggish UI & mediocre OTT apps, has higher customer satisfaction metrics and lower churn than the TiVo HD. I firmly believe that the Mini coupled with the Stream make an upgrade from a series 3 platform even more compelling for the vast majority of consumers. The bottom-line that's been also communicated from TiVo is that the Stream and Mini drive subscription fees buy attracting *new customers* and *lowering churn* of existing customers.


----------



## lessd

If the Mini comes out only workable with the TPXL4 or TP4 than the market at this point will not be that big unless TiVo puts together a package of the TP4+mini+Moca,+ a single service fee or package Lifetime. I am assuming the Mini has a built in Moca. Spending time speculation on the price is a waste of time IMHO.


----------



## sbiller

lessd said:


> If the Mini comes out only workable with the TPXL4 or TP4 than the market at this point will not be that big unless TiVo puts together a package of the TP4+mini+Moca,+ a single service fee or package Lifetime. I am assuming the Mini has a built in Moca. Spending time speculation on the price is a waste of time IMHO.


Correct. Mini has built-in MoCA.

TiVo sold 30,000 Premiere boxes at retail last quarter (10/31/2012). I can easily see TiVo sell 10,000 Retail Mini's per quarter after launch. I expect there will be an initial bump in Mini sales to fulfill demand associated with existing Premiere 4/XL4 owners. This also doesn't account for a possible increase in retail demand now that a viable whole home solution is available.


----------



## innocentfreak

SullyND said:


> My TiVoHD been very very good to me. Why upgrade?
> 
> HDUI? meh.
> More Efficient? Meh.
> MRS? (To another TiVo) Meh.
> More tuners? Maybe.
> TiVo Stream? Maybe.
> 
> Mini (At a decent price, including lifetime) Yep!
> 
> On it's own the Mini doesn't push it over, but cumulatively with the benefits above could finally push me to upgrade.


Remote management options and faster transferring is enough for me.

For my mom 4 tuners in one box and streaming will be enough. She doesn't want to manage two TiVos and she doesn't like transferring shows since it takes forever.


----------



## jamesjones_det

HazelW said:


> I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?


I don't think TiVo is out for people like you who have been with the service forever. If I was only paying $6.95 for TiVo I would buy 2 or 3 boxes and call it a day.

For me as a new member it's $15 a month for TiVo and $3.50 for a cable card. To add even a 2 tuner TiVo it would cost me another $16.50 a month (3.50 for cable card and 12.95 for another TiVo service). This would bring my receiver bill to $35 a month.

For me $6 a month to extend my recordings and occasionally live TV service is a bargain if it's really only going to be $99 and $6 a month.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> TiVo sold 30,000 Premiere boxes at retail last quarter (10/31/2012). I can easily see TiVo sell 10,000 Retail Mini's per quarter after launch. I expect there will be an initial bump in Mini sales to fulfill demand associated with existing Premiere 4/XL4 owners. This also doesn't account for a possible increase in retail demand now that a viable whole home solution is available.


How easily can you see it?  10K Minis per quarter might be on the aggressive side after the initial surge since the potential market really is kind of limited for now ("tens of thousands" of 4/XL4's sold according to the new waiver). A 33% upsell rate of all sales also sounds aggressive but once/if it's opened up to the other boxes, then maybe it's potentially possible. That service/lifetime fee is a real stinker in the deal, but a bundle discount of some kind could be attractive to some degree.


----------



## atmuscarella

sbiller said:


> TiVo has disclosed that the churn (cancellation) rate on TiVo HD is much higher than the TiVo Premiere so I think you'll are the exception. TiVo Premiere, even with its sluggish UI & mediocre OTT apps, has higher customer satisfaction metrics and lower churn than the TiVo HD. I firmly believe that the Mini coupled with the Stream make an upgrade from a series 3 platform even more compelling for the vast majority of consumers. The bottom-line that's been also communicated from TiVo is that the Stream and Mini drive subscription fees buy attracting *new customers* and *lowering churn* of existing customers.


I am sure that the reason TiVo developed both the Stream and Mini is because they thought they would cause greater new DVR sales either by attracting new customers or by retaining existing ones through upgrades. However I do not believe the Mini is going to lower the cancellation rate of any TiVo DVR any time soon.

First it requires a 4 tuner TiVo DVR and it is only going to work with Premiere DVRs. So there is no reason it should have any positive (it may have a negative) effect on the cancellation rate of Series 1, 2 or 3 TiVos. Second I don't really believe many (any?) people who have bought a 4 tuner TiVo DVR are going to be canceling it with or without the availability of a Mini any time soon. So that leaves the 2 tuner Premieres, which I am guessing it will have little net effect on.

I do believe that down the road it will help make it harder for people to leave TiVo - once someone has purchased a 4 (6?) tuner DVR and several Minis I do think they will be less likely to leave than someone who just purchases a low cost dual tuner one.

To me the Mini is somewhat of a game changer for retaining customers because it does not have a hard drive should have a very low failure rate and not need to be replaced for years and several DVR upgrades. People who are buying 4 tuner DVRs with Minis now will only need to replace the DVR when TiVo refreshes their DVR line up to have the latest greatest whole home system.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> How easily can you see it?  10K Minis per quarter might be on the aggressive side after the initial surge since the potential market really is kind of limited for now ("tens of thousands" of 4/XL4's sold according to the new waiver). A 33% upsell rate of all sales also sounds aggressive but once/if it's opened up to the other boxes, then maybe it's potentially possible. That service/lifetime fee is a real stinker in the deal, but a bundle discount of some kind could be attractive to some degree.


Thanks for pointing back to the "tens of thousands" comment from the recent waiver request. Since the Elite launched in January, 2012, TiVo has added approximately 120k gross adds (Premieres). I'm guessing that a 3rd of those are 4-tuner boxes so we have a base of only 40k boxes. I suspect 15 percent of those users would buy one Mini (6,000) and another 5 percent would by 2 Minis (4,000). So 10,000 Minis sold to existing users. For new TiVo purchasers, I suspect at least 50 percent will opt for a 4-tuner box (~15,000/qtr - 60,000/yr) and 30 percent (on average) would buy a Mini (4,500/qtr - 18,000/yr).

Bottom-line is a I agree that my 10k per quarter is aggressive and would require a significant uptick in retail sales volume.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> Thanks for pointing back to the "tens of thousands" comment from the recent waiver request. Since the Elite launched in January, 2012, TiVo has added approximately 120k gross adds (Premieres). I'm guessing that a 3rd of those are 4-tuner boxes so we have a base of only 40k boxes. I suspect 15 percent of those users would buy one Mini (6,000) and another 5 percent would by 2 Minis (4,000). So 10,000 Minis sold to existing users. For new TiVo purchasers, I suspect at least 50 percent will opt for a 4-tuner box (~15,000/qtr - 60,000/yr) and 30 percent (on average) would buy a Mini (4,500/qtr - 18,000/yr).
> 
> Bottom-line is a I agree that my 10k per quarter is aggressive and would require a significant uptick in retail sales volume.


The Elite launched in October 2011. I got my first Elite on October 9th, 2011.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> The Elite launched in October 2011. I got my first Elite on October 9th, 2011.


Thanks for that clarification. I bought my Elite around that time as well. How quickly I forget!


----------



## mr_smits

spotterman26 said:


> 5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.
> 
> EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.


Thanks for providing these numbers.

For comparison, I pulled together these numbers on other Tivo Products. Feel free to add or correct where needed. I couldn't find all the ranges. For energy use, I used 10 cents per kw hr, 24 hrs daily, using highest watt usage if there is a range for that device:

*Tivo Mini:* 4.4-5.9 watts; cost per month: 0.40; per year 5.15
*Tivo Stream:* 7-9 watts; cost per month: 0.60; per year 7.86
*Tivo Premiere Elite:* 20-22 watts; cost per month: 1.48; per year 19.22 
*Tivo Premiere:* 23-26 watts; cost per month 1.75; per year 22.71
*Tivo HD:* 35-38 watts; cost per month: 2.55; per year 33.20
*Tivo Series 3:* 41 watts; cost per month: 2.76; per yera 35.82
*Tivo Series 2:* 40 watts; cost per month: 2.69; per year 34.94
*Tivo Series 1:* 40-45 watts; cost per month: 3.02; per year 39.31


----------



## aaronwt

The Premiere Elite draws around 22 watts. 20 to 22 if I remember correctly.


----------



## davezatz

mr_smits said:


> For comparison, I pulled together these numbers on other Tivo Products.
> 
> *Tivo HD:* 35-38 watts; cost per month: 2.55; per year 33.20
> *Tivo Series 3:* 41 watts; cost per month


I measured my S3 at 42 and THD at 38 for whatever it's worth. I'm sure it varies by type of usage and such.


----------



## mr_smits

aaronwt said:


> The Premiere Elite draws around 22 watts. 20 to 22 if I remember correctly.


Added that info to the list. Interesting that Elite uses less than the regular Premiere.


----------



## jmpage2

mr_smits said:


> Added that info to the list. Interesting that Elite uses less than the regular Premiere.


I think the elite has a slightly newer chipset version, which would explain it.


----------



## compnurd

jmpage2 said:


> I think the elite has a slightly newer chipset version, which would explain it.


Newer Power supply.. Same chipset


----------



## P42

I don't think that is it surprising that the Elite uses less than the regular Premiere. While it does have twice the number of tuners the digital ones are using the same number of chips, and they are dropping the analog and OTA chips. Add in newer and more efficient versions of other chips, I'm taking a guess here, but for example the number of RAM chips needed could easily have been reduced with minimal hardware re-design, and zero software design. Enough little things like that will add up to 3 or 4 watts.


----------



## L David Matheny

compnurd said:


> Newer Power supply.. Same chipset


I think he meant the tuner chips. The Elite has four tuners, but they're newer and they lack circuitry for handling OTA (although that probably doesn't save much).

Oops. P42 beat me to it.


----------



## compnurd

L David Matheny said:


> I think he meant the tuner chips. The Elite has four tuners, but they're newer and they lack circuitry for handling OTA (although that probably doesn't save much).
> 
> Oops. P42 beat me to it.


yup


----------



## spotterman26

davezatz said:


> Cool, what did you ultimately use to measure it? I assume live TV, recorded TV, and screen saver would be the common modes. Doubt standby will see much use.


I found one of the Belkin meters.

Screensaver is definitely more likely to be used than standby. Until dynamic tuner sharing gets figured out, I'm leaving one mini in full standby to free up the 3rd tuner on the Q.


----------



## jmpage2

spotterman26 said:


> I found one of the Belkin meters.
> 
> Screensaver is definitely more likely to be used than standby. Until dynamic tuner sharing gets figured out, I'm leaving one mini in full standby to free up the 3rd tuner on the Q.


Is it not possible to have two Minis and only a single tuner dedicated from the Q for the two of them to share?

Can you fool the system into only setting up one tuner allocation with multiple Minis?


----------



## moyekj

spotterman26 said:


> Until dynamic tuner sharing gets figured out, I'm leaving one mini in full standby to free up the 3rd tuner on the Q.


 I don't understand this. Since tuner allocation is not dynamic and you control it on the Q it doesn't matter if Mini is active, in standby, unplugged, whatever right? i.e. Once you allocate 2 tuners from the Q for Minis those tuners are not available for recording no matter what you do with the Minis. That's my understanding of it.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> Thanks for pointing back to the "tens of thousands" comment from the recent waiver request. Since the Elite launched in January, 2012, TiVo has added approximately 120k gross adds (Premieres). I'm guessing that a 3rd of those are 4-tuner boxes so we have a base of only 40k boxes. I suspect 15 percent of those users would buy one Mini (6,000) and another 5 percent would by 2 Minis (4,000). So 10,000 Minis sold to existing users. For new TiVo purchasers, I suspect at least 50 percent will opt for a 4-tuner box (~15,000/qtr - 60,000/yr) and 30 percent (on average) would buy a Mini (4,500/qtr - 18,000/yr).
> 
> Bottom-line is a I agree that my 10k per quarter is aggressive and would require a significant uptick in retail sales volume.


Ah, interesting. It's definitely aggressive but thanks for showing the math. If there weren't fees tied to the Mini I'd be more optimistic. Not that it'll do poorly, in fact I think it'll be highly desirable once the early kinks are worked out. But I think they'd have to sell it aggressively by absorbing most or all of the service fee in a bundle deal to push that kind of potential. I hope they do.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> I don't understand this. Since tuner allocation is not dynamic and you control it on the Q it doesn't matter if Mini is active, in standby, unplugged, whatever right? i.e. Once you allocate 2 tuners from the Q for Minis those tuners are not available for recording no matter what you do with the Minis. That's my understanding of it.


I think he's saying that he's sharing that one dedicated tuner between his 2 Mini's.


----------



## moyekj

sbiller said:


> I think he's saying that he's sharing that one dedicated tuner between his 2 Mini's.


 OK, but still not necessary to put 1 Mini in Standy mode. Just leaving the Mini on anything else but live TV should suffice (and it will go into screensaver mode). Unless the issue is that if the Mini is in any mode other than standby it will insist on consuming a tuner no matter what. But I don't think so since allocating 0 tuners from the Q is a valid setting which means Mini doesn't require a tuner to operate.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> I think he's saying that he's sharing that one dedicated tuner between his 2 Mini's.


That is possible? So if someone is using Mini 1 for live tv, then Mini 2 cannot view live tv (but can view recorded content, streaming, etc)?


----------



## sbiller

mr_smits said:


> That is possible? So if someone is using Mini 1 for live tv, then Mini 2 cannot view live tv (but can view recorded content, streaming, etc)?


That is my understanding.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> That is my understanding.


Okay. So up to 2 Minis can be connected to a 4 tuner Premiere. They can share 1 live tuner between them or they can have zero live tuners (view recorded only) or they can have 2 live tuners dedicated.

Is a dedicated tuner really gone permanently from the 4 tuner box? Or is it in the pool that Minis can share?

Confused.


----------



## Loach

mr_smits said:


> Okay. So up to 2 Minis can be connected to a 4 tuner Premiere. They can share 1 live tuner between them or they can have zero live tuners (view recorded only) or they can have 2 live tuners dedicated.
> 
> Is a dedicated tuner really gone permanently from the 4 tuner box? Or is it in the pool that Minis can share?
> 
> Confused.


I believe the dedicated tuner is gone for purposes of recording (not permanently - you can change the setting). And it is in the pool that Minis can share for purposes of live TV.

Not sure that a 4 tuner Premiere is really limited to just up to 2 Minis. Haven't heard that before.


----------



## sfm

until this recent spat of confusing posts my assumption was this:

if 0 tuners allocated to the pool then no mini can access live tv... if 1 tuner allocated to the pool then only one mini can access live tv at any given time, if 2 tuners allocated then two minis can access live tv at any given time. Any tuners allocated to the pool are not available for recording regardless of what state any networked mini may be in. You can have any number of minis connected (but only 2 maximum can stream live tv).


----------



## Loach

sfm said:


> until this recent spat of confusing posts my assumption was this:
> 
> if 0 tuners allocated to the pool then no mini can access live tv... if 1 tuner allocated to the pool then only one mini can access live tv at any given time, if 2 tuners allocated then two minis can access live tv at any given time. Any tuners allocated to the pool are not available for recording regardless of what state any networked mini may be in. You can have any number of minis connected (but only 2 maximum can stream live tv).


I think you're correct on most if not all counts. However, I think what the recent chain of posts was addressing was the fact that if you allocate 1 tuner to Minis for live TV, multiple Minis can use that tuner (just not at the same time).

And I don't think that "any number" of Minis can be connected, but I think that the number is greater than 2.


----------



## Loach

I'm beginning to think my hope for a Mini/Premiere bundle discount is wishful thinking. Has anyone noticed the whole home "bundles" that Tivo is currently advertising?

http://www3.tivo.com/promo/wholehome-bundle/index.html

Notice that the "bundled" pricing is just a sum of the individual prices with no discount whatsoever? Do they periodically run bundles that are actually discounted?


----------



## tatergator1

I saw this pop-up on my Series 2DT last night, but I couldn't glean much info from what was shown there. I had a similar concern with Tivo, all of the sudden, packaging "Whole Home" bundles without the Mini did not bode well for a near-term Mini launch.


----------



## sbiller

Loach said:


> I think you're correct on most if not all counts. However, I think what the recent chain of posts was addressing was the fact that if you allocate 1 tuner to Minis for live TV, multiple Minis can use that tuner (just not at the same time).
> 
> And I don't think that "any number" of Minis can be connected, but I think the the number is greater than 2.


I think this post from Spotterman demonstrates the answer to your question(s) or at least some of the question.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9532942#post9532942


----------



## sfm

Loach said:


> I think you're correct on most if not all counts. However, I think what the recent chain of posts was addressing was the fact that if you allocate 1 tuner to Minis for live TV, multiple Minis can use that tuner (just not at the same time).
> 
> And I don't think that "any number" of Minis can be connected, but I think the the number is greater than 2.


I was probably a bit optimistic about the "any number"... it will be limited by the number of streams (live and pre-recorded) that the host tivo is willing/able to distribute (to minis and/or other premieres) at any given time.


----------



## lessd

sbiller said:


> Correct. Mini has built-in MoCA.
> 
> TiVo sold 30,000 Premiere boxes at retail last quarter (10/31/2012). I can easily see TiVo sell 10,000 Retail Mini's per quarter after launch. I expect there will be an initial bump in Mini sales to fulfill demand associated with existing Premiere 4/XL4 owners. This also doesn't account for a possible increase in retail demand now that a viable whole home solution is available.


How many of the 30,000 were 4 tuner jobs ??


----------



## sbiller

lessd said:


> How many of the 30,000 were 4 tuner jobs ??


TiVo doesn't disclose the mix of Premiere SKUs. TiVo did disclose that the mix of 4-tuners versus 2-tuners improved resulting in less hardware subsidy for the quarter. Going forward especially with a retail Mini, I expect that at least 50% of the boxes sold at retail with be 4-tuner boxes -- hence my 15,000 / qtr estimate.


----------



## Bigg

sbiller said:


> In reality, TiVo could easily sell the Mini at retail without a subscription fee. The problem with that model is the way TiVo is forced to account for Mini's from a Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) perspective. If TiVo sells the TiVo Mini without a subscription, they would only be able to count a Mini box as hardware revenue. On the other hand, if the Mini provides recurring monthly revenue or lifetime revenue amortized over 66 months, then TiVo can count each Mini box as a retail TiVo subscriber. In other words, TiVo maximizes the value of the company by charging some sort of nominal recurring fee for the TiVo Mini. IMHO, this is the primary reason TiVo is charging a recurring subscription fee for the Mini.


Fine, give me the box for free when I buy a $200 lifetime sub. Problem solved. Dumbest accounting ever, but that's what this sort of thing is worth, it doesn't really matter what the breakdown is. Just like TiVo Premieres are really $650-$900, even though they have this sort of fake cost breakdown that's irrelevant, as you have to buy both in order to use the thing.



atmuscarella said:


> You appear to have been around a long time - so you should be very familiar with how TiVo charges for their DVRs it has been the same since the beginning (having separate hardware and service charges). Having TiVo do the same thing with the Mini shouldn't really be all that surprising. Pay TV providers and cell phone companies do the same thing - move some or all of the hardware costs to on going monthly fees, at least with TiVo you can pay everything upfront and be done with it.


Yes, that's true, I have been around for a while. However, it makes no sense to have fees for individual minis, except maybe in the sense that the cable company does the same thing and TiVo is better (so they would have to equal or meet the $0 up-front, $10/mo fee structure that cable cos use). However, from a consumer electronics perspective, the fees are for the service. The Mini doesn't have service, as it's basically just a thin client for a Premiere 4 or XL4 that already has service.



atmuscarella said:


> Actually in the US what a TV is, is legally defined. In the US for something to be legally be called a TV it has to have tuners built into it that can receive television broadcasts, so no your computer monitor is not a TV and neither is your tablet. That is why when some manufactures left tuners out of their early HD devices they couldn't call them a TV but had to refer to them has monitors.
> 
> However your point is well taken that in the context of a mini it can transmit a signal to any displace device with the correct input and it is really irrelevant if the device is a TV or not.


A TV is irrelevant for pay TV, as all they can do is ATSC-8VSB or Clear QAM. Analog NTSC doesn't exist anymore (except in a few backwater small cable companies that are still living in the past), and U-Verse and Satellite don't use QAM at all, so it's all about boxes. Those boxes can attach to about anything. That, and TV LCD panels are the same ones they are using on monitors, they just throw slightly different ports and plastic cases on them.



sbiller said:


> At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.


Why would that be subsidized? It should be $99 at a profit. If they charge more, good for them for making money, and being in line with MCE extenders ($180-$200ish), but there is no reason they would be losing money on a box that is little more than a Roku or Apple TV with different software on it, and a slightly different port configuration.



sbiller said:


> #3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.
> 
> Keep in mind that the average home in the US has 2.5 set top boxes. My speculation is that the average TiVo home has 1 TiVo box and 1.5 cable operator supplied boxes.
> 
> Is there such a thing as a "free" cable box any more? FiOS charges $6.99 for a DTA...


How can they? What they would probably do is limit XoD to one tuner on the Premiere at a time, even if multiple tuners were available. Actually, I doubt the software on the Premiere is even set up to control more than one XoD stream anyways.

Although they were rare, some people had done setups with SageTV with cable boxes that were component re-captured, which would support running XoD as "live TV" or you could even extrapolate this out to whole-house HDMI matrix systems that can move XoD streams around from one box... the key is that you only get one XoD stream per box fee, so they will likely do the same for the Premieres and Minis... it will probably be FCFS.


----------



## DigitalDawn

I just finished the online dealer meeting For the TiVo Mini. I was told I could repeat all the info I learned, so here goes.

*TiVo Mini Launch:* March 6, 2013 (yes this year!)

*Pricing:* $99.99 Monthly: $5.99 or Lifetime: $149.99

*Dimensions:* 6.12" w 1.25" h

*Tuners & Streaming:*

Each Premiere 4-tuner model will currently support 2 Mini's. You can have more than one DVR on the system to increase your Mini allotment, and each Mini can access content from any DVR on the network -- even 2 tuner models. However, the Mini's are always paired to the same 4 tuner DVR for live tuner access.

*2nd Quarter 2013:* Dynamic Tuner Allocation. You'll be able to pair up to 9 Mini's to a single DVR. Each DVR will support up to 4 Mini streams simultaneously.

*Miscellaneous:*

There will be a Moca bridge available at launch. Looks pretty easy to hook up.

The Mini has mounting holes on the back for wall mounting. If the Mini is mounted behind a TV, there will be an IR extender available that connects to the Mini's USB port.

That's all I have right now. We'll find out more next week at launch.


----------



## jjd_87

DigitalDawn said:


> I just finished the online dealer meeting For the TiVo Mini. I was told I could repeat all the info I learned, so here goes.
> 
> *TiVo Mini Launch:* March 6, 2013 (yes this year!)
> 
> *Pricing:* $99.99 Monthly: $5.99 or Lifetime: $149.99
> 
> *Dimensions:* 6.12" w 1.25" h
> 
> *Tuners & Streaming:*
> 
> Each Premiere 4-tuner model will currently support 2 Mini's. You can have more than one DVR on the system to increase your Mini allotment, and each Mini can access content from any DVR on the network -- even 2 tuner models. However, the Mini's are always paired to the same 4 tuner DVR for live tuner access.
> 
> *2nd Quarter 2013:* Dynamic Tuner Allocation. You'll be able to pair up to 9 Mini's to a single DVR. Each DVR will support up to 4 Mini streams simultaneously.
> 
> *Miscellaneous:*
> 
> There will be a Moca bridge available at launch. Looks pretty easy to hook up.
> 
> The Mini has mounting holes on the back for wall mounting. If the Mini is mounted behind a TV, there will be an IR extender available that connects to the Mini's USB port.
> 
> That's all I have right now. We'll find out more next week at launch.


If this is true, this is awesome!!


----------



## compnurd

Now the question will become with the dynamic tuner allocation is will it still require a 4 tuner to set up or will it allocate and set up for someone with say 2-3 premieres


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## atmuscarella

DigitalDawn said:


> *Pricing:* $99.99 Monthly: $5.99 or Lifetime: $149.99


Thanks for the Info!! 

Guess my Guess of $250 with lifetime was pretty good just missed it by 2 cents.


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## jadziedzic

It will be interesting to see if there is a discount on the mini's lifetime service price for those eligible for multi-service discounts, as well as if TiVo plans to sell a bundle with an XL4 and a pair of minis.


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## innocentfreak

$249 with lifetime is a little high but better than the expected $299-$349. 

I wouldn't expect a lifetime discount since you have to have a TiVo to use the Mini so $149 is the MSD price.


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## Loach

jadziedzic said:


> It will be interesting to see if there is a discount on the mini's lifetime service price for those eligible for multi-service discounts, as well as if TiVo plans to sell a bundle with an XL4 and a pair of minis.


Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't every Mini owner by definition be eligible for multi-service discount? So, the price is the price.


----------



## mr_smits

compnurd said:


> Now the question will become with the dynamic tuner allocation is will it still require a 4 tuner to set up or will it allocate and set up for someone with say 2-3 premieres


The Mini news is fantastic.

Now: does the Mini still require a 4 tuner Premiere to set up and use or can I use a Mini for streaming of recorded content only from my 2 tuner Premieres?


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## moyekj

So looks like option to use with only a 2 tuner unit as the host (without live tv capability of course) is not going to be available any time soon if ever.
Pricing is actually better than I expected at $250, which means a few months after release can drop down to close to $200 range via online retailers which is my threshold. Depending on feedback even at $250 I may consider it since I already have an Elite anyway. What would really get my attention is if Mini is very speedy using HDUI and Flash apps - that means I could relegate sluggish Elite to a headless unit and use the Mini on that TV.


----------



## DigitalDawn

mr_smits said:


> The Mini news is fantastic.
> 
> Now: does the Mini still require a 4 tuner Premiere to set up and use or can I use a Mini for streaming of recorded content only from my 2 tuner Premieres?


Yes, you still need a 4-tuner TiVo to use the Mini.


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## moyekj

DigitalDawn, so I guess there was no mention if Netflix or other apps would be available via the Mini at retail launchi?


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## DigitalDawn

moyekj said:


> DigitalDawn, so I guess there was no mention if Netflix or other apps would be available via the Mini at retail launchi?


Yes, they will work on the Mini as well.


----------



## innocentfreak

moyekj said:


> So looks like option to use with only a 2 tuner unit as the host (without live tv capability of course) is not going to be available any time soon if ever.
> Pricing is actually better than I expected at $250, which means a few months after release can drop down to close to $200 range via online retailers which is my threshold. Depending on feedback even at $250 I may consider it since I already have an Elite anyway. What would really get my attention is if Mini is very speedy using HDUI and Flash apps - that means I could relegate sluggish Elite to a headless unit and use the Mini on that TV.


It makes you wonder if the next model will only be a 4 tuner which would then include OTA. This way every new TiVo supports the Mini.

Hopefully more retailers carry it than the Stream. Other than the Best Buy coupon the Stream has only been at MSRP.


----------



## DigitalDawn

I'm personally hoping for a 6-tuner model with Stream built-in. In my household that would be enough tuners for recording and Live TV.


----------



## innocentfreak

DigitalDawn said:


> I'm personally hoping for a 6-tuner model with Stream built-in. In my household that would be enough tuners for recording and Live TV.


Oh I definitely agree. I am ready for a 6 tuner.

I could just see them dropping the 2 tuner model completely if they can get the 4 tuner model cheap enough. Otherwise you risk people buying a 2 tuner and later going to add a Mini only to find out they can't.


----------



## mr_smits

DigitalDawn said:


> Yes, you still need a 4-tuner TiVo to use the Mini.


Okay. Well since I just decided this morning (before reading this) to cut the cord and try using Tivo for OTA service, Netflix streaming, maybe Hulu, etc. I will not be buying a 4 tuner Premiere and 2 Minis for the time being. I will keep an eye out for the rumored successor to the Elite/XL4/4 that could have OTA accessible via a dongle.


----------



## atmuscarella

innocentfreak said:


> It makes you wonder if the next model will only be a 4 tuner which would then include OTA. This way every new TiVo supports the Mini.
> ...


There were some rumors based on a TiVo FCC waiver request that there would be a 4 tuner combo OTA/Cable DVR coming but that it would be digital only (no analog OTA or Cable), which was what the waiver was for. So who knows.


----------



## dave13077

Looks like the MOCA bridge will not be part of the unit and will have to be purchased separately. Not a big deal as I am sure they wanted to try to keep the price down on the unit. It will be interesting to see if it is the same adapter that they already sell.


----------



## sbiller

dave13077 said:


> Looks like the MOCA bridge will not be part of the unit and will have to be purchased separately. Not a big deal as I am sure they wanted to try to keep the price down on the unit. It will be interesting to see if it is the same adapter that they already sell.


TiVo Mini is a MoCA end-point. It won't bridge a MoCA connection like the 4/XL4 to provide ethernet to other devices.


----------



## dave13077

sbiller said:


> TiVo Mini is a MoCA end-point. It won't bridge a MoCA connection like the 4/XL4 to provide ethernet to other devices.


OK thanks, Got it.... So I assume it should have a MOCA connection built into it and won't need anything else to connect to MOCA.


----------



## sbiller

dave13077 said:


> OK thanks, Got it.... So I assume it should have a MOCA connection built into it and won't need anything else to connect to MOCA.


Correct. Its a certified MoCA 1.1 design. Details here -> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/tivo-mini-tuner-allocation-details-revealed/


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## h2oskierc

DigitalDawn said:


> Yes, you still need a 4-tuner TiVo to use the Mini.


LAME.


----------



## NAMLOOT

Sorry if this has been answered, but could I hook a slingbox up to the mini?


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## dave13077

Will they have to roll out a software update for the Mini or is the current software ready to roll?


----------



## sbiller

dave13077 said:


> Will they have to roll out a software update for the Mini or is the current software ready to roll?


Suddenlink is pushing the Mini to its users with 20.2.1 so I assume that the current baseline Premiere software is sufficient for the Mini.


----------



## tbielowicz

lessd said:


> My Triple play from Comcast comes with one HD cable box, it may not be free but if I turn it in I don't save any money, so to me it is free, with the package I have, for my cable cards, for some reason, Comcast does not charge me any AO fee, the bill at one time had a line for the A/O fee that was $0, now the bill does not even have a line for the A/O fee. I do have 4 CC and just pay for the cards ($1.15/month/per card)


Then you are lucky. For years I never was charged for my Outlet fees but as of 6 months ago, they dinged me for an outlet fee for each Cable Card. I turned in my HD Box and had the HD fee and Outlet fee removed, only being charged for the cable card since I used this as my main outlet (which is included).

I had two TVs getting the adapters which now have a $2.99/mth charge. Every 6 months, comcast is looking for new ways to increase my bill.


----------



## tbielowicz

NAMLOOT said:


> Sorry if this has been answered, but could I hook a slingbox up to the mini?


I wouldn't see why not, but why wouldn't it just be hooked up to your main Tivo box?


----------



## NAMLOOT

tbielowicz said:


> I wouldn't see why not, but why wouldn't it just be hooked up to your main Tivo box?


Don't want to monopolize the primary TV in the house when I travel. Unless I am missing something, the sling only shows what is on the screen for the attached device. Thinking of using the mini as a sling client only. Thoughts?


----------



## tbielowicz

*So the real benefit of the mini will be the following:*
- HD Picture Quality (no loss in original PQ)
- Multiple users (on main Tivo box plus Mini's at the same time)
- One cable card & outlet fee

*Negatives:*
- Allocates the tuner so it will not be used for recording
- $250 lifetime cost

If I had a six tuner, I would be all over this one. Now I have to make sure that this works for my setup since on occasion, I have 4 channels recording.

I currently have a BOCs unit distributing DVD quality video from my main Tivo unit via Coax. It works well as long as there are not multiple users. Plus if the whole family watches a game, every TV in the house can watch it at the same time (slight lag from original TV).

Any word on a 6 tuner that may be in development?


----------



## tbielowicz

NAMLOOT said:


> Don't want to monopolize the primary TV in the house when I travel. Unless I am missing something, the sling only shows what is on the screen for the attached device. Thinking of using the mini as a sling client only. Thoughts?


Gotcha, I have the same issue with the Slingbox and you are correct, that may solve that limitation.

I would say yes, but until someone proves this, we can't be sure.


----------



## aaronwt

So I guess since lifetime is only going to be $149, I might as well get that instead of going monthly at $6. Since the break even point is only 25 months. Plus I'll be saving $4 a month anyway by having one less cable card.

I just need to go through both my Elites to see which one the Mini will be connected to. One of them regularly uses all four tuners.

Now I hope they get the stream working with Android and announce a six tuner box with built in stream capabilities soon.


----------



## wizardman13

Hello to all! I've been following all the post of the "Mini" since November. I'll be really happy if it does come out next week. As a new tivo user, I hope they put together a bundle package for new users.


----------



## sbiller

tbielowicz said:


> *Any word on a 6 tuner that may be in development?*


*

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/tivo-sets-the-stage-for-next-gen-digital-dvr/*


----------



## DaveDFW

DigitalDawn said:


> *Pricing:* $99.99 Monthly: $5.99 or Lifetime: $149.99


I guess it's nice to finally have some real pricing information, though I still think the Mini is overpriced for its capabilities.

A two-tuner base Premiere isn't that much more expensive and has the benefit of being a full-featured DVR that can operate independently. A Mini will be absolutely useless without a four-tuner box on your network.


----------



## sbiller




----------



## moyekj

DaveDFW said:


> I guess it's nice to finally have some real pricing information, though I still think the Mini is overpriced for its capabilities.
> 
> A two-tuner base Premiere isn't that much more expensive and has the benefit of being a full-featured DVR that can operate independently. A Mini will be absolutely useless without a four-tuner box on your network.


 Well, assuming you can find a 2 tuner Premiere for $50 that's still $450 with lifetime, so $200 more than a Mini, and you don't get the HDUI & Flash app speedups (newer SOC). Plus to make the Premiere more useful than the Mini you have to have a CableCard attached so may have to factor in the monthly cost of that in as well. The price difference is enough to make me consider a Mini largely for the potential speedup.


----------



## dave13077

sbiller said:


>


There is also the savings of not needing a CableCard for the Mini. That savings is monthly since you can't buy a CableCard and have to rent it from the cable co.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


>


Of course it's going to be cheaper to use a mini, but in your first scenario you have six tuners, while the second one only has four tuners. Four tuners wasn't enough for me when I used VCRs, and it wasn't enough for me when I started using TiVos in 2001. Which is why I went with a minimum of six tuners from the very beginning when I first got TiVos from DirecTV.


----------



## sbiller

Here is the Verizon FiOS Scenario... obviously there are trade-offs (pros/cons) with using Minis v actual Premiere boxes.... 70% monthly saving for 3 TVs.


----------



## P42

tbielowicz said:


> *Negatives:*
> - Allocates the tuner so it will not be used for recording
> - $250 lifetime cost


If you want/need the option of watching live TV on the Mini(s), then yes you do lose a tuner, but if you are just using the Mini to watch existing content, then no, you don't need to allocate and lose a tuner. It is expected that this will go away at some point...but I would be surprised if it gets pushed down the road a a bit.


----------



## L David Matheny

sbiller said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/tivo-sets-the-stage-for-next-gen-digital-dvr/


If TiVo does indeed introduce a 4-tuner or 6-tuner model that can receive digital OTA (ATSC) broadcasts, I might have to buy one, but I would want to be sure that reception issues are unlikely. OTA reception is inherently more problematic than cable reception because of RFI, multipath, etc. That's why 8VSB requires more robust error correction than QAM. IME, the 2-tuner Premiere's tuners and demodulators have been excellent, with the demodulators apparently handling static multipath (reflections from buildings, hills, etc) much better than those in my TiVo HD. Others have found that the Premiere seems to be worse at handling dynamic multipath (reflections from airplanes, trucks, etc) than Series 3 units, and possibly that their tuners overload more easily. And there seem to be plenty of reports that the newest 4-tuner Premieres may have more serious reception problems.

ATSC reception shouldn't be rocket science at this point, but apparently there is still plenty of room for error. So I hope that TiVo will thoroughly test whatever tuner and demodulator chips they plan to use in newer models, both in the laboratory and in the field, before committing the designs to production. Their future success may well depend on reception quality, and unlike user interface problems, reception issues probably can't be fixed by software changes. This stuff is important.


----------



## aaronwt

My FiOS cable cards are $3.99 each.


----------



## atmuscarella

sbiller said:


> Here is the Verizon FiOS Scenario... obviously there are trade-offs (pros/cons) with using Minis v actual Premiere boxes.... 70% monthly saving for 3 TVs.


Each individual will have to do the calculations for themselves and decide how much different things are worth to them, the things I would think about are:


What are the actual costs/savings for my situation
How much do I think more tuners are worth
How much do I think more storage is worth
How much do I think redundancy is worth (in the mini whole home solution if the DVR goes you are Sh** out of luck, with 3 DVRs if one goes you likely still have 2 more)
What equipment do I already have - how much would I get if I sell it?
How much is only having to replace 1 DVR to upgrade in the future worth (assumes minis will last through several DVR upgrades)?


----------



## mr_smits

dave13077 said:


> There is also the savings of not needing a CableCard for the Mini. That savings is monthly since you can't buy a CableCard and have to rent it from the cable co.


Plus reduced power requirements of about $1 per month per Mini (if replacing a Premiere).


----------



## HazelW

The TiVo support site says:
"You can also access applications such as Pandora, Live365, YouTube or your cable providers Video On Demand."

So does this mean the Mini will be able to access on demand from any cable provider I have?


----------



## atmuscarella

HazelW said:


> The TiVo support site says:
> "You can also access applications such as Pandora, Live365, YouTube or your cable providers Video On Demand."
> 
> So does this mean the Mini will be able to access on demand from any cable provider I have?


Where did you find anything about the Mini in TiVo support - it hasn't even been officially release yet? But my guess is the answer is no. Of course if you are renting one from Suddenlink cable or happen to be in the right comcast area the answer maybe yes.


----------



## davezatz

atmuscarella said:


> Where did you find anything about the Mini in TiVo support - it hasn't even been officially release yet?


It's was officially released to Suddenlink several weeks ago. Support note here:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395


----------



## atmuscarella

davezatz said:


> It's was officially released to Suddenlink several weeks ago. Support note here:
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395


Ok a combined support page for leased or purchased Minis makes sense.


----------



## compnurd

HazelW said:


> The TiVo support site says:
> "You can also access applications such as Pandora, Live365, YouTube or your cable providers Video On Demand."
> 
> So does this mean the Mini will be able to access on demand from any cable provider I have?


Only if you have access now from your Tivo, ala some comcast customers


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DigitalDawn said:


> *2nd Quarter 2013: Dynamic Tuner Allocation. You'll be able to pair up to 9 Mini's to a single DVR. Each DVR will support up to 4 Mini streams simultaneously.*


*

Thanks for the info! Was anything mentioned about relaxing the 4-tuner requirement once DTA is available? With 9 Mini's to a 4-tuner box, blocking the 2-tuner box would be REALLY artificial... likely for the sole purpose of encouraging an upgrade.

$250 isn't a great deal, but with some gift cards I can eat it. But dayum, we could be getting this guy next week.*


----------



## drebbe

From TiVo's Earnings call

"As a result of these investments, we are on track to launch a TV
Everywhere web portal powered by TiVo with our first MSO customer,
which will allow subscribers the opportunity to enjoy video content
on a variety of devices including tablets. In addition, we will be
releasing our thin-client IP set-top box, TiVo Mini, in retail in the
very near-future, which follows the successful launch of this product
in our operator channel. "


----------



## JohnnyO

atmuscarella said:


> [*]How much do I think redundancy is worth (in the mini whole home solution if the DVR goes you are Sh** out of luck, with 3 DVRs if one goes you likely still have 2 more)


Ooooh! Really good point. I have two TiVoHD units now, and one of the key benefits is I can swap the one from the hardly-used basement up for the primary TiVo in the Family Room if necessary. I've had to do that once with my TiVoHDs, and previously I had to do it once with an older generation of equipment.

It isn't so much that I can't be without TiVo for a day or so - more that I don't know how long I'd be out.

John


----------



## southerndoc

Anyone know if you can connect the Mini via 802.11n? We would like to place our TV/mini in a different area of the room (across from the cable outlet). I guess I could run coax or ethernet cable underneath the baseboard, but if it works with wireless all the better. (I understand the Premiere must be hardwired.)


----------



## sbiller

geekmedic said:


> Anyone know if you can connect the Mini via 802.11n? We would like to place our TV/mini in a different area of the room (across from the cable outlet). I guess I could run coax or ethernet cable underneath the baseboard, but if it works with wireless all the better. (I understand the Premiere must be hardwired.)


Hardwire only... MoCA or Ethernet.


----------



## Loach

atmuscarella said:


> Each individual will have to do the calculations for themselves and decide how much different things are worth to them, the things I would think about are:
> 
> 
> What are the actual costs/savings for my situation
> How much do I think more tuners are worth
> How much do I think more storage is worth
> How much do I think redundancy is worth (in the mini whole home solution if the DVR goes you are Sh** out of luck, with 3 DVRs if one goes you likely still have 2 more)
> What equipment do I already have - how much would I get if I sell it?
> How much is only having to replace 1 DVR to upgrade in the future worth (assumes minis will last through several DVR upgrades)?


These are exactly the factors I'm weighing. My whole home solution probably looks like a) adding another Premiere and 2 Minis, or b) just adding 3 Minis (once the Premiere can support more than 2 Minis). It's probably coming down to #1 vs. #4 for me. If I go with option b), I wouldn't even be able to tune most of my HD channels if my one Premiere went completely out, much less record anything.

More tuners are worth something to me, but probably more so in terms of redundancy. More storage I could get by upgrading my Premiere 4 rather than buying a 2nd Premiere.


----------



## aaronwt

geekmedic said:


> Anyone know if you can connect the Mini via 802.11n? We would like to place our TV/mini in a different area of the room (across from the cable outlet). I guess I could run coax or ethernet cable underneath the baseboard, but if it works with wireless all the better. (I understand the Premiere must be hardwired.)


Just use a wireless bridge. If setup properly there should not be any issues. I can use a wireless bridge with any of my Premieres, and the experience will be identical to connecting it to the wired portion of my network.


----------



## spotterman26

Sbiller asked for this picture. I figured I'd post it here in case others were interested too. Pretty self explanatory, but the bottom tuner is the one currently allocated to my Mini. As previously posted, I'm currently running my Q to allow 1 tuner for live tv, but both Minis can access all recorded shows on my Q, all on demand, youtube, pandora, etc.


----------



## moyekj

Thanks for that picture spotterman26. Quick way to check tuner allocation.

One thing I forgot to ask. From the Mini can you access Season Pass Manager & ToDo lists for the host unit and make changes?


----------



## lessd

tbielowicz said:


> Then you are lucky. For years I never was charged for my Outlet fees but as of 6 months ago, they dinged me for an outlet fee for each Cable Card. I turned in my HD Box and had the HD fee and Outlet fee removed, only being charged for the cable card since I used this as my main outlet (which is included).
> 
> I had two TVs getting the adapters which now have a $2.99/mth charge. Every 6 months, comcast is looking for new ways to increase my bill.


What does Comcast have against you, that they want to increase your bill !!


----------



## Bigg

Hmmm, so $250. Pricey, but not that atrocious, and definitely better than the $650 to add a dual-tuner box that it costs right now.

This is really t3h sux0rs for OTA-only folks though. No Mini for them. They should at least support it without the ability to do live TV. Especially since the OTA folks are usually the most budget-conscious, hence why they are OTA.



DigitalDawn said:


> I'm personally hoping for a 6-tuner model with Stream built-in. In my household that would be enough tuners for recording and Live TV.


Agreed. You need to max out the ability of CableCards, and really embrace the server/client whole-home DVR model, which is what that would do.



innocentfreak said:


> Oh I definitely agree. I am ready for a 6 tuner.
> 
> I could just see them dropping the 2 tuner model completely if they can get the 4 tuner model cheap enough. Otherwise you risk people buying a 2 tuner and later going to add a Mini only to find out they can't.


They would need to add ATSC-8VSB capability to it though. And as far as anyone knows, there's no single-chip solution to do that yet.



sbiller said:


> TiVo Mini is a MoCA end-point. It won't bridge a MoCA connection like the 4/XL4 to provide ethernet to other devices.


Yeah, that makes more sense. Otherwise the TiVo Mini would become rather much of a cabling mess on TVs that aren't installed in entertainment centers like the main TV usually is.

Would MoCA 1.1 bring the whole network down to the slower speeds, or would it still allow MoCA 2.0 devices to stay at the higher speeds?



dave13077 said:


> There is also the savings of not needing a CableCard for the Mini. That savings is monthly since you can't buy a CableCard and have to rent it from the cable co.


You could have a 4-tuner on cable and a couple of 2-tuners on OTA, but yes, the savings is significant. It's even more significant when you scale up to more TVs and you can go from, say, 6 TiVos, at a cost of upwards of $4k to two sets of Premiere 4/Minis.



aaronwt said:


> Just use a wireless bridge. If setup properly there should not be any issues. I can use a wireless bridge with any of my Premieres, and the experience will be identical to connecting it to the wired portion of my network.


Correct. I'd do Homeplug AV, which isn't as fast, but is much more stable, although not nearly as stable as MoCA or Ethernet.


----------



## crxssi

jjd_87 said:


> If this is true, this is awesome!!


Awesome that the price is $250, which is just barely reasonable. But not awesome that there is no mention at all about using it with 2 tuner Premieres.


----------



## crxssi

aaronwt said:


> Now I hope they get the stream working with Android and announce a six tuner box with built in stream capabilities soon.


And with OTA tuners and a MUCH faster processor. At that point, I would probably have to jump, even though it is just me and I really don't need more than 2 tuners.


----------



## crxssi

dave13077 said:


> There is also the savings of not needing a CableCard for the Mini. That savings is monthly since you can't buy a CableCard and have to rent it from the cable co.


No there isn't. There is no requirement that the Premieres the Minis would be replacing would have cable cards. It is a POSSIBILITY in SOME cases, but not in others.


----------



## crxssi

sbiller said:


> Hardwire only... MoCA or Ethernet.


No, you *can* connect it via WiFi with an external router or gaming adapter. TiVo won't support/recommend this, because of possible performance issues. But if it is done correctly and without interference in your area, it should work just fine.


----------



## dhoward

Does anyone know if there is a delay to a remote command between the tivo and mini. I used to use a slingcatcher/slingbox hookup with my HD and the 3-5 second delay drove me crazy. It was a real pain when fast forwarding. The delay was explainable since the command had to go from the catcher to the slingbox then to the tivo and then back again. The mini goes right to the tivo but what is the response time? Also, if one is using two mini's does that mean each mini, at the same time, can watch a different recorded show?


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> Hmmm, so $250. Pricey, but not that atrocious, and definitely better than the $650 to add a dual-tuner box that it costs right now.
> 
> This is really t3h sux0rs for OTA-only folks though. No Mini for them. They should at least support it without the ability to do live TV. Especially since the OTA folks are usually the most budget-conscious, hence why they are OTA.
> 
> Agreed. You need to max out the ability of CableCards, and really embrace the server/client whole-home DVR model, which is what that would do.
> 
> They would need to add ATSC-8VSB capability to it though. And as far as anyone knows, there's no single-chip solution to do that yet.
> 
> Yeah, that makes more sense. Otherwise the TiVo Mini would become rather much of a cabling mess on TVs that aren't installed in entertainment centers like the main TV usually is.
> 
> Would MoCA 1.1 bring the whole network down to the slower speeds, or would it still allow MoCA 2.0 devices to stay at the higher speeds?
> 
> You could have a 4-tuner on cable and a couple of 2-tuners on OTA, but yes, the savings is significant. It's even more significant when you scale up to more TVs and you can go from, say, 6 TiVos, at a cost of upwards of $4k to two sets of Premiere 4/Minis.
> 
> Correct. I'd do Homeplug AV, which isn't as fast, but is much more stable, although not nearly as stable as MoCA or Ethernet.


No Moca 1.1 would not bring everything down if there are 2 devices


----------



## sbiller

crxssi said:


> No, you *can* connect it via WiFi with an external router or gaming adapter. TiVo won't support/recommend this, because of possible performance issues. But if it is done correctly and without interference in your area, it should work just fine.


Since the BCM7418 based Mini is using some sort of "proprietary" Broadcom technology to extend the User Interface, I suspect that the networking demands are significant. We won't know until someone hooks up a network analyzer and looks at the traffic but I would guess that WiFi could be troublesome... not recommended IMHO.


----------



## sbiller

dhoward said:


> Does anyone know if there is a delay to a remote command between the tivo and mini. I used to use a slingcatcher/slingbox hookup with my HD and the 3-5 second delay drove me crazy. It was a real pain when fast forwarding. The delay was explainable since the command had to go from the catcher to the slingbox then to the tivo and then back again. The mini goes right to the tivo but what is the response time? Also, if one is using two mini's does that mean each mini, at the same time, can watch a different recorded show?


I suspect the user experience will be significantly better than the slingbox/slingcatcher. The Remote User Interface (RUI) technology of the Mini's Broadcom BCM7418 is designed for an optimal user experience. I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell that you are decoupled from the host DVR.


----------



## sbiller

crxssi said:


> No there isn't. There is no requirement that the Premieres the Minis would be replacing would have cable cards. It is a POSSIBILITY in SOME cases, but not in others.


If the Premiere that the Mini was replacing wanted to access live TV than it would need a CableCARD. Obviously its use-case dependent but in the majority of cases there would be a savings of one CableCARD when a Mini replaces a Premiere.


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> No Moca 1.1 would not bring everything down if there are 2 devices


Sucks for FIOS users. Hope they hardwire their internet coming in.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Bigg said:


> Sucks for FIOS users. Hope they hardwire their internet coming in.


How so? Do you think the 1.1 limit is a problem? There should be plenty of bandwidth.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> Since the BCM7418 based Mini is using some sort of "proprietary" Broadcom technology to extend the User Interface, I suspect that the networking demands are significant. We won't know until someone hooks up a network analyzer and looks at the traffic but I would guess that WiFi could be troublesome... not recommended IMHO.


It shouldn't be a problem if it's setup properly. In other words, no interference issues and an unsaturated AP.


----------



## spotterman26

moyekj said:


> Thanks for that picture spotterman26. Quick way to check tuner allocation.
> 
> One thing I forgot to ask. From the Mini can you access Season Pass Manager & ToDo lists for the host unit and make changes?


Yes, you can do both. I have noticed some shows I've deleted from the Mini have shown back up on the Q. Doesn't happen always, just every once in a while.

Dhoward, the delay is minuscule. Fast forwarding is not an issue. Very similar to viewing recorded shows transferred from one premiere to another. Live tv does have a split second lag when changing channels, but not bad.


----------



## Bigg

BigJimOutlaw said:


> How so? Do you think the 1.1 limit is a problem? There should be plenty of bandwidth.


1.1 does about 70mbps, and FIOS internet is 75mbps alone. Plus VOD on a FIOS box. Plus TiVo now too, if they're all going at once.

EDIT: You might be able to get more aggregate out of it with bi-directional usage to multiple devices, but it may still be close. 75mbps coming in, maybe a few being re-transmitted into the network from the internet, and a couple of TiVo streams at 19mbps each... What version does the XL4 use?

In other news, does this thing support native output?


----------



## compnurd

BigJimOutlaw said:


> How so? Do you think the 1.1 limit is a problem? There should be plenty of bandwidth.


Yeh I don't understand his statement at all or what it has to do with fios

With the exception of the very early version actiontec routers they are moca 1.1 
And there are not many of the older ones left.


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> 1.1 does about 70mbps, and FIOS internet is 75mbps alone. Plus VOD on a FIOS box. Plus TiVo now too, if they're all going at once.
> 
> In other news, does this thing support native output?


1.1 supports 140 Mbps. And we covered this like 6 times already

The Internet connection speed has nothing to do with the network infrastructure bandwidth

The 140mbps is the device limit. So unless that device is streaming a movie and downloading a huge file, it would not matter

And even then, only that device would slow down Not the entire network


----------



## ellinj

so just to clarify since this thread has gotten long, if I have a xl4 and one mini and assign a tuner for live tv, I can never record 4 things at once or does the tuner get released if the mini isn't using live tv?


----------



## Digital Man

This is very exciting. I plan to buy a Mini as soon as they are available.

Does anyone know if they will be available immediately on release at retailers or only direct through Tivo? I've got a Best Buy gift card that I'd love to use for the Mini.

Thanks,
DM


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> 1.1 supports 140 Mbps. And we covered this like 6 times already
> 
> The Internet connection speed has nothing to do with the network infrastructure bandwidth
> 
> The 140mbps is the device limit. So unless that device is streaming a movie and downloading a huge file, it would not matter
> 
> And even then, only that device would slow down Not the entire network


You're saying 2.0 supports 240, which I can't find any data to confirm or refute, so I'll give you that one. Real-world tests put 1.1 at around 70mbps. You may be able to get a bit more out of it with multiple streams, and lab testing has pushed it over 100mbps, but you're still running a bit tight on bandwidth when you have 75mbps coming in, you're using that MoCA again to push some of that out into the network, AND you're flinging 19mbps video around. If you hardwire the ONT to the router, you'd be all set.

So there's conflicting information here... does a slower element in the MoCA network slow the whole thing down... That is the kingpin of this issue.

The internet coming in has everything to do with it, as the default FIOS installation puts the router-to-ONT connection on the same coax system as the internal network. Somehow they separate the traffic out so that the internal network isn't exposed to the internets.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> You're saying 2.0 supports 240, which I can't find any data to confirm or refute, so I'll give you that one. Real-world tests put 1.1 at around 70mbps. You may be able to get a bit more out of it with multiple streams, and lab testing has pushed it over 100mbps, but you're still running a bit tight on bandwidth when you have 75mbps coming in, you're using that MoCA again to push some of that out into the network, AND you're flinging 19mbps video around. If you hardwire the ONT to the router, you'd be all set.
> 
> So there's conflicting information here... does a slower element in the MoCA network slow the whole thing down... That is the kingpin of this issue.
> 
> The internet coming in has everything to do with it, as the default FIOS installation puts the router-to-ONT connection on the same coax system as the internal network. Somehow they separate the traffic out so that the internal network isn't exposed to the internets.


I ran several devices with either MoCA 1.0 or 1.1 with the FiOS Actiontec MoCA router, a couple of Dlink MoCA adapters and the Elite. The backbone bandwidth easily exceeded 100Mb/s. But when I had multiple devices transferring concurrently I could not get the speeds I was used to when using my GigE backbone and ethernet. The speeds were perfectly fine and there were no issues transferring, streaming, etc, between the TiVos. It was just slower than I was used to over ethernet if I was doing multiple transfers concurrently. So I went back to all Ethernet and wireless Bridge connections since they were faster.

And here is the MoCA Alliance page on MoCA 2.0

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA_2/index.php


----------



## compnurd

Bigg said:


> You're saying 2.0 supports 240, which I can't find any data to confirm or refute, so I'll give you that one. Real-world tests put 1.1 at around 70mbps. You may be able to get a bit more out of it with multiple streams, and lab testing has pushed it over 100mbps, but you're still running a bit tight on bandwidth when you have 75mbps coming in, you're using that MoCA again to push some of that out into the network, AND you're flinging 19mbps video around. If you hardwire the ONT to the router, you'd be all set.
> 
> So there's conflicting information here... does a slower element in the MoCA network slow the whole thing down... That is the kingpin of this issue.
> 
> The internet coming in has everything to do with it, as the default FIOS installation puts the router-to-ONT connection on the same coax system as the internal network. Somehow they separate the traffic out so that the internal network isn't exposed to the internets.


I am just going to leave this alone because you are not getting it and I am going to pull my hair out trying to explain it

Bottom line it is device driven. You need to move past the whole whatever your Internet connection speed is The actual coax has a very high theoretical limit for speed. You are limited by the device speed.

Please do more research before posting about fios and the incoming connection speed and moca

It is just going to confuse people

And no one slower moca device does not slow down everything else

That is like saying plugging in a 10base T device would slow down an entire 1000mbit network Device driven


----------



## DigitalDawn

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Thanks for the info! Was anything mentioned about relaxing the 4-tuner requirement once DTA is available? With 9 Mini's to a 4-tuner box, blocking the 2-tuner box would be REALLY artificial... likely for the sole purpose of encouraging an upgrade.
> 
> $250 isn't a great deal, but with some gift cards I can eat it. But dayum, we could be getting this guy next week.


Nothing was mentioned regarding changing the 4-tuner requirement.


----------



## dkraft

sbiller said:


> Hardwire only... MoCA or Ethernet.


Could't you use the TiVo wireless N adapter?


----------



## jjd_87

dkraft said:


> Could't you use the TiVo wireless N adapter?


NO.

In theory you can use anything you want, but Tivo is only going to support MOCA and Ethernet.

This thread would be about 15 pages shorter if people would just read the points already made multiple times.


----------



## slowbiscuit

sbiller said:


> I suspect the user experience will be significantly better than the slingbox/slingcatcher. The Remote User Interface (RUI) technology of the Mini's Broadcom BCM7418 is designed for an optimal user experience. I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell that you are decoupled from the host DVR.


You will always be able to tell you're on an extender when watching a streamed show, because trick play will have a slight delay that you don't have on the host.


----------



## atmuscarella

jjd_87 said:


> This thread would be about 15 pages shorter if people would just read the points already made multiple times.


Very few people will go back this thread it is just to long.

Once the Mini is actually released maybe we can get a "fact Sheet" post in a new thread and have it made a sticky. Until then I wouldn't go to hard on questions that have been asked and answered.


----------



## mr_smits

atmuscarella said:


> Very few people will go back this thread it is just to long.
> 
> Once the Mini is actually released maybe we can get a "fact Sheet" post in a new thread and have it made a sticky. Until then I wouldn't go to hard on questions that have been asked and answered.


Plus there are many confusing aspects of the Mini that aren't present with other Tivo products, so it is even more confusing that a normal new product.

We will need a FAQ on the Mini because people will have questions.


----------



## jjd_87

mr_smits said:


> Plus there are many confusing aspects of the Mini that aren't present with other Tivo products, so it is even more confusing that a normal new product.
> 
> We will need a FAQ on the Mini because people will have questions.


I can agree with that, but streaming is not supported over wifi on any TiVo.


----------



## mr_smits

jjd_87 said:


> I can agree with that, but streaming is not supported over wifi on any TiVo.


Right but _transfer_ is supported over wifi and distinguishing the difference is more complicated than you might think. People that have Tivo on wifi now may think if transfer works over wifi now then it will likely work over wifi with the new version and product.

The good news is that Tivo seems to understand that they need to simplify their environment. Once the 2 tuner model is discontinued, all new Tivos will be able to support the Mini.

All new customers won't be coming with the transfer baggage that existing customers (before the Premiere to Premiere streaming option; not the Tivo Stream to Apple products) have in their head.


----------



## spotterman26

ellinj said:


> so just to clarify since this thread has gotten long, if I have a xl4 and one mini and assign a tuner for live tv, I can never record 4 things at once or does the tuner get released if the mini isn't using live tv?


As of right now, if you set up your XL4 as you mention above (Allowing 1 device to stream live tv), you cannot record 4 programs at once on the XL4, you can only record 3. The tuner you assign to the mini will be permanently assigned for networked device streaming of live tv. Regardless of whether you let the mini to go screen saver mode or put it in manual standby, the tuner remains assigned to the mini on the main box. If you go back a page or 2 you can see a screenshot I posted of what the tuner allocation looks like set up the way you are describing.
The assumption is that once TiVo releases dynamic tuner sharing, then that assigned tuner will possibly be released back to your XL4 under screen saver or standby. That's the best I can figure? Hope that helps.


----------



## tvn

spotterman26 said:


> As of right now, if you set up your XL4 as you mention above (Allowing 1 device to stream live tv), you cannot record 4 programs at once on the XL4, you can only record 3. The tuner you assign to the mini will be permanently assigned for networked device streaming of live tv. Regardless of whether you let the mini to go screen saver mode or put it in manual standby, the tuner remains assigned to the mini on the main box. If you go back a page or 2 you can see a screenshot I posted of what the tuner allocation looks like set up the way you are describing.
> The assumption is that once TiVo releases dynamic tuner sharing, then that assigned tuner will possibly be released back to your XL4 under screen saver or standby. That's the best I can figure? Hope that helps.


Good job. Thanks for explaining. We are all very excited to add this to the mix of Tivo Premieres, MOCA, and Tivo Stream. I think giving up a tuner in a multi-Premiere set up is not a big deal. Personally I have a 4 tuner and two two-tuners, so I'm ready to assign two to two different Minis off of the XL4. I'll let MOCA transfer from the other Tivos to give me a six-tuner recording set-up.


----------



## Dan203

ellinj said:


> so just to clarify since this thread has gotten long, if I have a xl4 and one mini and assign a tuner for live tv, I can never record 4 things at once or does the tuner get released if the mini isn't using live tv?


For now it's permanent, so your 4 tuner becomes a 3 tuner. But according to the info posted dynamic tuner allocation is coming in Q2. Once that happens then the tuner will only be used by the Mini when it's actively being used to watch live TV.


----------



## Aero 1

Dan203 said:


> For now it's permanent, so your 4 tuner becomes a 3 tuner. But according to the info posted dynamic tuner allocation is coming in Q2. Once that happens then the tuner will only be used by the Mini when it's actively being used to watch live TV.


with dynamic tuner allocation, a potential new problem arises. What happens on a day that all 4 tuners are scheduled to go off at the same time. will a mini provide a prompt that it cant watch live tv? will it stop a recording? will it give you the option?

or

what happens if you are watching live tv on one or two minis and the host tivo starts recording 4 things at once? will it kick the minis out of live tv, at the ire of the watcher? or give you options?


----------



## mr_smits

It should behave like current boxes do if a user wants to watch live TV but there are shows to be recorded: Tivo will prompt to either continue watching (cancel recording) or switch to recorded content/streaming.


----------



## bradleys

Aero 1 said:


> with dynamic tuner allocation, a potential new problem arises. What happens on a day that all 4 tuners are scheduled to go off at the same time. will a mini provide a prompt that it cant watch live tv? will it stop a recording? will it give you the option?
> 
> or
> 
> what happens if you are watching live tv on one or two minis and the host tivo starts recording 4 things at once? will it kick the minis out of live tv, at the ire of the watcher? or give you options?


I am sure it will handle it the same way it does today. If you are watching live TV on your tivo and a recording is scheduled to begin - you will get a notice to cancel the recording or allow the unit to change the channel.

The Mini is just an extension of your TiVo, so I would expect the experience to be identical. I do not see how this represents a new use case.


----------



## Capital J

Hello
I have been watching from the sidelines and waiting anxiously for more TiVo Mini information to be released. I am a current FiOS customer and I pay $39.99/month for the FiOS multi-room DVR package for 3 rooms. The DVR I have is the 2 tuner QIP7232 and it has a 500GB HDD with the ability to attach up to a 2TB external HDD. This setup has been adequate, but I have often wished the DVR could record more than 2 programs at the same time. I have also been hoping to ditch the monthly DVR tax that I pay so I began looking at TiVo and the now scrapped Ceton Q + Echo solutions.

I am sad to say that I do not believe TiVo has won me over as a new customer with their pricing. As I see it, the breakeven point for me to ditch the FiOS gear in favor of a similar TiVo setup would be 39 months. 39 months! Thats more than 3 years and I would lose FiOS video On Demand to boot. I just cannot justify buying in at this point with these prices when I can rent the FiOS product, get upgrades when available, and not worry about it failing for more than three years. I just thought I would share my story as I believe that TiVo was looking to get people in my EXACT situation to jump on board. If prices come down in the future or package deals are offered, if dynamic tuner allocation is introduced and/or if a 6 tuner STB is brought to market, I will have to reconsider. But, the monthly/lifetime service fee on each Mini really is the deal-breaker and right now the TiVo solution is just not compelling enough for me.

Cost	Lifetime	
TiVo Premiere XL4	399.99	499.99	
TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99	
TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99	
599.97	799.97 1,399.94 


Monthly	
FiOS CableCard 3.99	
FiOS MRDVR (3 Room) 39.99	

Breakeven (in months) 39


----------



## jcthorne

sbiller said:


> If the Premiere that the Mini was replacing wanted to access live TV than it would need a CableCARD. Obviously its use-case dependent but in the majority of cases there would be a savings of one CableCARD when a Mini replaces a Premiere.


Not true. A premiere can use the tuner of another premiere on the netowrk. Dynamic and all, right now.

Go to the bottom of the myshows list, select another premiere on the network and go to the my shows list. Now hit the live tv button. You are watching the tuner on the remote premiere.


----------



## atmuscarella

jcthorne said:


> Not true. A premiere can use the tuner of another premiere on the netowrk. Dynamic and all, right now.
> 
> Go to the bottom of the myshows list, select another premiere on the network and go to the my shows list. Now hit the live tv button. You are watching the tuner on the remote premiere.


Great!

I was hoping a subbed Premiere would eventually be able to function just like a Mini at some point (I can not test as I only have one Premiere) can you change the channel on the remote Premiere and do you have fully control of the remote tuner?


----------



## innocentfreak

Capital J said:


> Hello
> I have been watching from the sidelines and waiting anxiously for more TiVo Mini information to be released. I am a current FiOS customer and I pay $39.99/month for the FiOS multi-room DVR package for 3 rooms. The DVR I have is the 2 tuner QIP7232 and it has a 500GB HDD with the ability to attach up to a 2TB external HDD. This setup has been adequate, but I have often wished the DVR could record more than 2 programs at the same time. I have also been hoping to ditch the monthly DVR tax that I pay so I began looking at TiVo and the now scrapped Ceton Q + Echo solutions.
> 
> I am sad to say that I do not believe TiVo has won me over as a new customer with their pricing. As I see it, the breakeven point for me to ditch the FiOS gear in favor of a similar TiVo setup would be 39 months. 39 months! Thats more than 3 years and I would lose FiOS video On Demand to boot. I just cannot justify buying in at this point with these prices when I can rent the FiOS product, get upgrades when available, and not worry about it failing for more than three years. I just thought I would share my story as I believe that TiVo was looking to get people in my EXACT situation to jump on board. If prices come down in the future or package deals are offered, if dynamic tuner allocation is introduced and/or if a 6 tuner STB is brought to market, I will have to reconsider. But, the monthly/lifetime service fee on each Mini really is the deal-breaker and right now the TiVo solution is just not compelling enough for me.
> 
> Cost	Lifetime
> TiVo Premiere XL4	399.99	499.99
> TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99
> TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99
> 599.97	799.97 1,399.94
> 
> Monthly
> FiOS CableCard 3.99
> FiOS MRDVR (3 Room) 39.99
> 
> Breakeven (in months) 39


I believe FiOS MRDVR is only 2 tuners currently. Their FiOS home server is supposed to be 5 tuners and 1TB of space. At least per DSLreports.com forums it is also supposed to be more expensive than the current setup possibly around 59.99 for 3 rooms.

Also TiVo doesn't really position itself as a cheaper option anymore, but one big thing you are missing is the TiVo retains its value with lifetime. While the break even might be 40 months, at anytime during that 39 months you could recoup a large amount of the money you put out there by selling the boxes. Last time I checked people were still getting a couple hundred for the TiVo HD with lifetime which is 7 years old I believe at this point.


----------



## lessd

jjd_87 said:


> I can agree with that, but streaming is not supported over wifi on any TiVo.


Works great on TiVo N adapter at 5GHz


----------



## jcthorne

atmuscarella said:


> Great!
> 
> I was hoping a subbed Premiere would eventually be able to function just like a Mini at some point (I can not test as I only have one Premiere) can you change the channel on the remote Premiere and do you have fully control of the remote tuner?


You can call up the remote guide and schedule a recording, I'll have to try the ch up and ch dn buttons to see.


----------



## wizardman13

Capital J said:


> Hello
> I have been watching from the sidelines and waiting anxiously for more TiVo Mini information to be released. I am a current FiOS customer and I pay $39.99/month for the FiOS multi-room DVR package for 3 rooms. The DVR I have is the 2 tuner QIP7232 and it has a 500GB HDD with the ability to attach up to a 2TB external HDD. This setup has been adequate, but I have often wished the DVR could record more than 2 programs at the same time. I have also been hoping to ditch the monthly DVR tax that I pay so I began looking at TiVo and the now scrapped Ceton Q + Echo solutions.
> 
> I am sad to say that I do not believe TiVo has won me over as a new customer with their pricing. As I see it, the breakeven point for me to ditch the FiOS gear in favor of a similar TiVo setup would be 39 months. 39 months! Thats more than 3 years and I would lose FiOS video On Demand to boot. I just cannot justify buying in at this point with these prices when I can rent the FiOS product, get upgrades when available, and not worry about it failing for more than three years. I just thought I would share my story as I believe that TiVo was looking to get people in my EXACT situation to jump on board. If prices come down in the future or package deals are offered, if dynamic tuner allocation is introduced and/or if a 6 tuner STB is brought to market, I will have to reconsider. But, the monthly/lifetime service fee on each Mini really is the deal-breaker and right now the TiVo solution is just not compelling enough for me.
> 
> Cost	Lifetime
> TiVo Premiere XL4	399.99	499.99
> TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99
> TiVo Mini	99.99	149.99
> 599.97	799.97 1,399.94
> 
> Monthly
> FiOS CableCard 3.99
> FiOS MRDVR (3 Room) 39.99
> 
> Breakeven (in months) 39


Hello,

I'm in the same boat as you. I have been waiting for this option for a very long time. I was excited about the "Q" (I was even selected as a Beta for Echo) but that didn't pan out. I'm hoping that Tivo gives some kind of discount for new users.

Also I see your breakeven point in 35 months 1399.9/39.99=35? Correct??


----------



## tatergator1

wizardman13 said:


> Also I see your breakeven point in 35 months 1399.9/39.99=35? Correct??


You have to account for the fact that he'd have to pay $3.99 for the CC monthly, so the monthly difference is $36.00, not $39.99.

I would argue it should be 35 months for another reason though. For an apples to apples comparison, the Premiere 4 @ $249.99 is a better equivalent to his current FiOS DVR in terms of hard drive space, and it would essentially be a 2-tuner device at launch if you had two Mini's with allocated Live TV tuners. But I'm just nit-picking. Each person will have their own opinion about what is reasonable for the break-even point.


----------



## Capital J

wizardman13 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm in the same boat as you. I have been waiting for this option for a very long time. I was excited about the "Q" (I was even selected as a Beta for Echo) but that didn't pan out. I'm hoping that Tivo gives some kind of discount for new users.
> 
> Also I see your breakeven point in 35 months 1399.9/39.99=35? Correct??


If TiVo did not require a $3.99 CableCARD in perpetuity, then the B/E would be 35 months. Don't forget you need a CableCARD for TiVo.


----------



## Capital J

tatergator1 said:


> You have to account for the fact that he'd have to pay $3.99 for the CC monthly, so the monthly difference is $36.00, not $39.99.
> 
> I would argue it should be 35 months for another reason though. For an apples to apples comparison, the Premiere 4 @ $249.99 is a better equivalent to his current FiOS DVR in terms of hard drive space, and it would essentially be a 2-tuner device at launch if you had two Mini's with allocated Live TV tuners. But I'm just nit-picking. Each person will have their own opinion about what is reasonable for the break-even point.


This is a fair argument, but I would like a bigger HDD if I am going to upgrade. Also, TiVo does not allow for OnDemand with FiOS. That is worth something. Case in point, I had not seen Homeland until the beginning of February. I subscribed to Showtime for $6/month, watched the full 2 seasons and cancelled my Showtime subscription. Options like that are gone with TiVo. Good show BTW.


----------



## moyekj

jcthorne said:


> Not true. A premiere can use the tuner of another premiere on the netowrk. Dynamic and all, right now.
> 
> Go to the bottom of the myshows list, select another premiere on the network and go to the my shows list. Now hit the live tv button. You are watching the tuner on the remote premiere.


 Are you sure about that? When you bring up the guide for scheduling it's in context of remote host so you can schedule recordings and edit season passes of the remote host. But if you bring up guide or live TV from remote My Shows you get the foreground tuner of your local host, not the remote host. I just double checked before posting this to make sure. I set tuners on my remote host to different channels than my local host and then browsed to remote host My Shows and hit live TV and confirmed I was getting foreground tuner of my local host.


----------



## aaronwt

Capital J said:


> This is a fair argument, but I would like a bigger HDD if I am going to upgrade. Also, TiVo does not allow for OnDemand with FiOS. That is worth something. Case in point, I had not seen Homeland until the beginning of February. I subscribed to Showtime for $6/month, watched the full 2 seasons and cancelled my Showtime subscription. Options like that are gone with TiVo. Good show BTW.


Also what is worth something is the resale value of the TiVos. I've been using TiVos with FiOS since 2007 and I fully expect to sell at least one of my four tuner Premieres if/when a six tuner box is released. The sale of my lifetime four tuner Premiere will probably cover most of the cost of a six tuner Lifetime TiVo.

Since I've had FiOS I've upgraded Tivos multiple times and gone through at least sixteen TiVos(both S3 and S4 boxes). The sale of my lifetime S3 boxes covered around 80% of the cost of my lifetime, two tuner S4 boxes. And the sale of two of my lifetime two tuner S4 boxes, covered 100% of the cost of my lifetime four tuner S4 boxes.(for each lifetime, four tuner, Premiere I sold two Lifetime, two tuner premieres).

If I had been using FiOS DVRs since 2007 when I first got FIOS, my out of pocket expenses would have been much, much greater than what I've spent on TiVos during the same time period.

The Mini will reduce this cost even further. And with a lifetime option on the Mini, it will ensure a nice resale value as well.


----------



## jcthorne

moyekj said:


> Are you sure about that? When you bring up the guide for scheduling it's in context of remote host so you can schedule recordings and edit season passes of the remote host. But if you bring up guide or live TV from remote My Shows you get the foreground tuner of your local host, not the remote host. I just double checked before posting this to make sure. I set tuners on my remote host to different channels than my local host and then browsed to remote host My Shows and hit live TV and confirmed I was getting foreground tuner of my local host.


I need to try this again. Perhaps I seleced an item in the remote host guide and it tuned that channel.


----------



## crxssi

atmuscarella said:


> Very few people will go back this thread it is just to long.


In this case, I and others posted about it yesterday, just a dozen or so posts back. That is why he was complaining.


----------



## crxssi

lessd said:


> Works great on TiVo N adapter at 5GHz


If you have never have interference.
If you are in range.
If nothing else is sucking it dry.
If it is set up properly.

There are a lot of "ifs" which is why TiVo doesn't want to officially support it. I can't blame them a bit. But yeah, if you cover your ifs, it should work.


----------



## crxssi

Capital J said:


> If TiVo did not require a $3.99 CableCARD in perpetuity, then the B/E would be 35 months. Don't forget you need a CableCARD for TiVo.


OMG
For the 100th time. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUT A CABLE CARD IN A TIVO [Premiere].

Unless you want to connect it to Cable TV. It can be used as a streaming client to another TiVo without a cable card. It can be used OTA (if it has those tuners) without a cable card. It can use Netflix and YouTube and any other network video without a cable card. You can push shows to it with PyTiVo without a cable card.


----------



## Arcady

crxssi said:


> OMG
> For the 100th time. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PUT A CABLE CARD IN A TIVO [Premiere].


This is a thread about the TiVo mini, which requires a 4-tuner TiVo as a host. A 4-tuner TiVo without a CableCard is a useless item for almost everyone, because you can't tune most HD programming without the CableCard. For someone comparing a FIOS DVR to a 4-tuner TiVo, the CableCard is a requirement to get the same channel lineup.

On my cable system, they only charge $2 for CableCards, so it doesn't really matter in my own comparisons. I still have a loose card that is leftover from a TiVo I sold when I went from two 2-tuners to an Elite. I guess one day I will get around to bringing it back to the cable company and save $2 a month.


----------



## Bigg

compnurd said:


> I am just going to leave this alone because you are not getting it and I am going to pull my hair out trying to explain it
> 
> Bottom line it is device driven. You need to move past the whole whatever your Internet connection speed is The actual coax has a very high theoretical limit for speed. You are limited by the device speed.
> 
> Please do more research before posting about fios and the incoming connection speed and moca
> 
> It is just going to confuse people
> 
> And no one slower moca device does not slow down everything else
> 
> That is like saying plugging in a 10base T device would slow down an entire 1000mbit network Device driven


Between two devices it's about 70mbps. Even if their Ethernet ports would be able to do 90 on their own.

If the devices in fact operate separately, then it's not an issue, as the router and ONT will stay on MoCA 2.0, but no, it's not obvious that would be the case, as MoCA is running over a shared channel on a split coax system, as opposed to home-run UTP.



Capital J said:


> Hello
> I have been watching from the sidelines and waiting anxiously for more TiVo Mini information to be released. I am a current FiOS customer and I pay $39.99/month for the FiOS multi-room DVR package for 3 rooms. The DVR I have is the 2 tuner QIP7232 and it has a 500GB HDD with the ability to attach up to a 2TB external HDD. This setup has been adequate, but I have often wished the DVR could record more than 2 programs at the same time. I have also been hoping to ditch the monthly DVR tax that I pay so I began looking at TiVo and the now scrapped Ceton Q + Echo solutions.
> 
> I am sad to say that I do not believe TiVo has won me over as a new customer with their pricing. As I see it, the breakeven point for me to ditch the FiOS gear in favor of a similar TiVo setup would be 39 months. 39 months! Thats more than 3 years and I would lose FiOS video On Demand to boot. I just cannot justify buying in at this point with these prices when I can rent the FiOS product, get upgrades when available, and not worry about it failing for more than three years. I just thought I would share my story as I believe that TiVo was looking to get people in my EXACT situation to jump on board. If prices come down in the future or package deals are offered, if dynamic tuner allocation is introduced and/or if a 6 tuner STB is brought to market, I will have to reconsider. But, the monthly/lifetime service fee on each Mini really is the deal-breaker and right now the TiVo solution is just not compelling enough for me.


I usually look at it over a 48 month life, although that's assuming you don't get bitten by the upgrade bug first!

TiVo is really a unique product, and I don't think they're trying to be price competitive, although at the rate the price hikes are going with the MSOs, they are actually becoming somewhat price competitive. I'm not sure where we're headed with all these box fees, adding $40 or more every month to the bill for boxes is just absurdity, and there's no cost-effective way around it (having a whole-home distributed A/V system is not at all cost-effective). MCE is really the only thing that is pretty cost-effective, but it's a half-baked DIY system. The days of analog cable with a bunch of splitters are gone, that's for sure.

For the CableCards, you actually get a credit back compared to the base price of the plan if you only have one CableCard for the whole house, and none of their boxes.


----------



## crxssi

Arcady said:


> This is a thread about the TiVo mini, which requires a 4-tuner TiVo as a host. A 4-tuner TiVo without a CableCard is a useless item for almost everyone


Yeah, because the 4 tuner model has no OTA.

I agree with what you are saying, but the thread has ALSO been about comparing using a TiVo for a client to using a Mini as a client. Both can be used as clients without needing cable cards in either...


----------



## Leon WIlkinson

I'm hoping for an upgrade offer from a Premiere or TiVoHD to a four tuner Premiere, I would really think about selling a lifetimed TiVo or 2 and going stream (android)and mini's instead.


----------



## bearcat2000

I apologize if this has been already asked, but does the mini then come with a new ir remote? And does it have Bluetooth built in so we could use a slider?


----------



## sbiller

bearcat2000 said:


> I apologize if this has been already asked, but does the mini then come with a new ir remote? And does it have Bluetooth built in so we could use a slider?


I believe it comes with a standard TiVo basic peanut remote. The Mini has a USB port so it will probably work with the Slide remote. Rumor has it that new remotes will be announced this year. I think an earlier post acknowledges that there will be a way to extend the IR for the Mini so it can be mounted behind a flat screen TV.


----------



## zubinh

Not having a built in Moca bridge is a disappointment. That's one more device to pay for and add clutter. But I'll pay Tivo the $250 cause it beats paying VZ $6/mo forever.


----------



## sbiller

zubinh said:


> Not having a built in Moca bridge is a disappointment. That's one more device to pay for and add clutter. But I'll pay Tivo the $250 cause it beats paying VZ $6/mo forever.


Just to clarify... The Mini thin client does support MoCA internally. It won't bridge a MoCA connection to feed ethernet to other devices that are co-located with the Mini.


----------



## zubinh

sbiller said:


> Just to clarify... The Mini thin client does support MoCA internally. It won't bridge a MoCA connection to feed ethernet to other devices that are co-located with the Mini.


I gotcha Sbiller. I have a PS3 in an upstairs bedroom away from the router that I was hoping to pair with the Mini. Now I gotta go buy another $75 device


----------



## aaronwt

Just use wireless for the PS3. The wireless connection on the PS3 is more than fast enough for any apps or games.


----------



## zubinh

aaronwt said:


> Just use wireless for the PS3. The wireless connection on the PS3 is more than fast enough for any apps or games.


Router in the Basement. A PS3 in an upstairs bedroom. = Signal degradation, not as fast as MoCA. Amazon instant video is watchable but does lag at times on wireless.


----------



## aaronwt

zubinh said:


> Router in the Basement. A PS3 in an upstairs bedroom. = Signal degradation, not as fast as MoCA. Amazon instant video is watchable but does lag at times on wireless.


Try a different router or AP. My currrent Asus router works great with multiple floors or over a wide horizontal plane. With it oriented one way the signal is best over a horizontal area. With the router oriented 90 degrees another way the signal is best in the vertical plane.

When I was in one of the neighbors above me. I was in their upper level, which is two floors up from my router, i still had a very strong wifi signal going through one floor of concrete and one floor of wood. And that was even with the router oriented for horizontal coverage.

My older DLink router, that the Asus replaced, never had coverage that good.


----------



## dave13077

aaronwt said:


> Try a different router or AP. My currrent Asus router works great with multiple floors or over a wide horizontal plane. With it oriented one way the signal is best over a horizontal area. With the router oriented 90 degrees another way the signal is best in the vertical plane.
> 
> When I was in one of the neighbors above me. I was in their upper level, which is two floors up from my router, i still had a very strong wifi signal going through one floor of concrete and one floor of wood. And that was even with the router oriented for horizontal coverage.
> 
> My older DLink router, that the Asus replaced, never had coverage that good.


What Asus router do you have?


----------



## sbiller

zubinh said:


> I gotcha Sbiller. I have a PS3 in an upstairs bedroom away from the router that I was hoping to pair with the Mini. Now I gotta go buy another $75 device


Actiontec MoCa adapter is $49.99 from TiVo. You could also put your host Premiere 4/XL4 DVR with the PS3 since it does provide the bridging functionality.


----------



## zubinh

sbiller said:


> Actiontec MoCa adapter is $49.99 from TiVo. You could also put your host Premiere 4/XL4 DVR with the PS3 since it does provide the bridging functionality.


Thanks Sbiller!! You saved me $25. The same adapter is $76 on Amazon. I have my XL4 paired with a PS3 in the Living Room. I wanted to pair the Mini with a PS3 in the bedroom (yes I love PS3's!) so I better buy this adapter now before they sell out.


----------



## sbiller

zubinh said:


> Thanks Sbiller!! You saved me $25. The same adapter is $76 on Amazon. I have my XL4 paired with a PS3 in the Living Room. I wanted to pair the Mini with a PS3 in the bedroom (yes I love PS3's!) so I better buy this adapter now before they sell out.


They've been selling the Actiontec for quite some time at $49.99 which I'm guessing covers their cost from Actiontec. I don't expect them to increase it anytime since it helps their whole home initiatives.


----------



## zubinh

Has anyone checked to see if Logitech Harmony has included the Mini in their database? If not I'm guessing the IR codes will be the same as a Premiere?


----------



## aaronwt

dave13077 said:


> What Asus router do you have?


I have the RT-N56U. I am using the padavan custom firmware.

http://code.google.com/p/rt-n56u/

So has there been any other confirmation about the TiVo Mini being released on the 6th? I see the Roku 3 is also supposedly being released the same day. So hopefully I can pick both up from Best Buy at the same time.


----------



## aaronwt

zubinh said:


> Has anyone checked to see if Logitech Harmony has included the Mini in their database? If not I'm guessing the IR codes will be the same as a Premiere?


Didn't someone mention that the Mini comes with the standard TiVo Peanut remote?


----------



## overFEDEXed

aaronwt said:


> Didn't someone mention that the Mini comes with the standard TiVo Peanut remote?


Spotterman26 did, when I asked him about the Slide working with the Mini.


----------



## davezatz

TiVo just posted a *retail* Mini support note. Includes an interesting chart which sheds some light on which content is sourced via the Internet versus the hub DVR.

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2560


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> TiVo just posted a *retail* Mini support note. Includes an interesting chart which sheds some light on which content is sourced via the Internet versus the hub DVR.
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2560


Wow... that's a hell of a table! 

Moral of the story... have the Mini *AND* the Premiere 4/XL4 connected to the Internet!

MoCA solves soooo many problems.

Do you believe the March 6th date yet?!?


----------



## gonzotek

sbiller said:


> Wow... that's a hell of a table!


You can say that again. Most of the truth tables I learned in Digital Circuits 101 were less complicated than that. Besides its intended purposes, I think it also sheds light on just why retail is so hard for TiVo: far too much to explain to people who (rightfully, imo) don't care about why or how something works; they just want everything to 'just work'.


----------



## sbiller

gonzotek said:


> You can say that again. Most of the truth tables I learned in Digital Circuits 101 were less complicated than that. Besides its intended purposes, I think it also sheds light on just why retail is so hard for TiVo: far too much to explain to people who (rightfully, imo) don't care about why or how something works; they just want everything to 'just work'.


Its probably there to help the techs and the tech savvy public (RE: readers of TCF) figure out and troubleshoot what could be wrong since there are two pieces of equipment and potentially two internet connections that are coupled and decoupled to worry about.


----------



## swerver

I'm trying to follow how you would get into some of those cases. If both devices are connected on the local network, wouldn't they either both have internet access, or neither? Maybe this has to do with moca which I don't use. I'm picturing most people having both devices networked to a router, which in turn gives both internet access, but maybe some people have more complex setups...


----------



## davezatz

swerver said:


> I'm trying to follow how you would get into some of those cases.


If your network goes out?


----------



## swerver

Yeah but then both are out, I get that case. I'm referring to the cases where you have one connected to the internet and one not connected? Since they both have to be networked together anyway to do anything. (well other than OTT) It must be something about the way moca works, bridged vs. not bridged or something.


----------



## atmuscarella

swerver said:


> Yeah but then both are out, I get that case. I'm referring to the cases where you have one connected to the internet and one not connected? Since they both have to be networked together anyway to do anything. (well other than OTT) It must be something about the way moca works, bridged vs. not bridged or something.


Once you start mixing Ethernet, Wireless, and MoCA you can start to get some interesting stuff happening. But I find the case where the Premiere is on the Internet, the Mini & Premiere are connected to each other but the Mini is off the Internet fairly hard to plot out.


----------



## DavidAsher

swerver said:


> Yeah but then both are out, I get that case. I'm referring to the cases where you have one connected to the internet and one not connected? Since they both have to be networked together anyway to do anything. (well other than OTT) It must be something about the way moca works, bridged vs. not bridged or something.


Well, its a troubleshooting document, so there could be cases where a broken/powered-off switch in the middle of a complex network is preventing complete connectivity, but not all connectivity.


----------



## NYHeel

Is there any chance the Mini gets allowed on 2 tuner premieres anytime soon? I have a perfect use case for a Mini with one big problem.

I currently have 2 TVs in my house both with 2 tuner Premieres (each also has an upgraded 2 TB drive). I'm just about to finish up a construction project that will likely (if I decide to get a TV for my kids to use) cause me to get another TV in the house. Of course the new TV needs a Tivo attached to it and the Mini would be perfect. There would be no real need for live TV as my kids usually just watch recordings. 

Problem is that I really don't want to have to buy a new 4 tuner Tivo just so I can get a mini. I'd rather just wait until the rumored 6 tuner model comes out and I can just have 1 Premiere with two minis. I figure I can use an external hard drive to archive some shows if I need to be under my current 4TB total that I have now.


----------



## morac

davezatz said:


> TiVo just posted a *retail* Mini support note. Includes an interesting chart which sheds some light on which content is sourced via the Internet versus the hub DVR.
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2560


That table confirms that the mini stores no guide data of it's own as it can't show any unless connected to the host DVR. Also apparently it doesn't connect at all to TiVo's mind servers since it can't do searching, browsing, DB without a connection to the host DVR.

The only thing the mini can do without a connection to a host DVR is use Internet apps, so basically the Mini is akin to a Roku with built TiVo streaming functionality.

A somewhat odd thing is that both the Mini and DVR need to be connected to the Internet to get poster art. The host DVR must provide the mini with a URL for the poster art and then the mini downloads it. That's likely the case as I'm pretty sure poster art is served from Akamai Technology's CDN, not from TiVo's servers (at least I remember that being the case last time I checked).


----------



## moyekj

morac said:


> That table confirms that the mini stores no guide data of it's own as it can't show any unless connected to the host DVR. Also apparently it doesn't connect at all to TiVo's mind servers since it can't do searching, browsing, DB without a connection to the host DVR.


 Exactly. Which means the "service" fee is not for guide data.


----------



## sbiller

moyekj said:


> Exactly. Which means the "service" fee is not for guide data.


I believe Poster Art is provided by TMS as well...


----------



## moyekj

morac said:


> That table confirms that the mini stores no guide data of it's own as it can't show any unless connected to the host DVR. Also apparently it doesn't connect at all to TiVo's mind servers since it can't do searching, browsing, DB without a connection to the host DVR.
> 
> The only thing the mini can do without a connection to a host DVR is use Internet apps, so basically the Mini is akin to a Roku with built TiVo streaming functionality.
> 
> A somewhat odd thing is that both the Mini and DVR need to be connected to the Internet to get poster art. The host DVR must provide the mini with a URL for the poster art and then the mini downloads it. That's likely the case as I'm pretty sure poster art is served from Akamai Technology's CDN, not from TiVo's servers (at least I remember that being the case last time I checked).


The base url for all those HDUI images is: i.tivo.com/images
For each image there's actually an array of different sizes/resolutions of the same image so it appears like instead of scaling same image, different parts of the HDUI just request image of a certain size.


----------



## MPSAN

I have seen the March 6th date posted and wonder where it came from. Is this just another guess and do we expect a package deal on it, with a Premiere 4?


----------



## lessd

MPSAN said:


> I have seen the March 6th date posted and wonder where it came from. Is this just another guess and do we expect a package deal on it, with a Premiere 4?


Oh there will be a package deal, and I know what it is, the list price of a TP4 + List price of the Mini, simple.


----------



## innocentfreak

MPSAN said:


> I have seen the March 6th date posted and wonder where it came from. Is this just another guess and do we expect a package deal on it, with a Premiere 4?


It is based off an earlier post in this thread by someone who says they received sales training on the device.


----------



## Philmatic

morac said:


> That's likely the case as I'm pretty sure poster art is served from Akamai Technology's CDN, not from TiVo's servers (at least I remember that being the case last time I checked).





moyekj said:


> The base url for all those HDUI images is: i.tivo.com/images


i.tivo.com is an alias for Akamai (a1975.g.akamai.net)


----------



## moyekj

Philmatic said:


> i.tivo.com is an alias for Akamai (a1975.g.akamai.net)


Indeed:



Code:


> nslookup i.tivo.com
Non-authoritative answer:
i.tivo.com      canonical name = i.tivo.com.edgesuite.net.
i.tivo.com.edgesuite.net        canonical name = a1975.g.akamai.net.
Name:   a1975.g.akamai.net
Address: 198.172.88.121
Name:   a1975.g.akamai.net
Address: 198.172.88.66


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> Didn't someone mention that the Mini comes with the standard TiVo Peanut remote?


There are a bunch of versions. Could be very similar but with different IR codes. Who knows.



atmuscarella said:


> Once you start mixing Ethernet, Wireless, and MoCA you can start to get some interesting stuff happening. But I find the case where the Premiere is on the Internet, the Mini & Premiere are connected to each other but the Mini is off the Internet fairly hard to plot out.


Also, that troubleshooting table isn't rocket science. I think the big takeaway is that the Mini gets its OTT content directly from the interwebs, not through the Premiere. The Mini is a little more intelligent than just a thin client for the Premiere.

The case you mention is basically impossible, as once you connect MoCA to the rest of the network, either through a bridge or through a TiVo, you have one IP network. It's neat how Ethernet is flexible enough to mix 100/1000BaseTX, MoCA, Powerline, and Wifi on one network.



innocentfreak said:


> It is based off an earlier post in this thread by someone who says they received sales training on the device.


Let's hope the package deal is better than their current packages, which are a joke, as they aren't a discount at all. Maybe they will drop their new DVR as well.

Theory: they have been holding the Mini for a launch with a new 6-tuner CableCard DVR with 3TB of storage.


----------



## MPSAN

lessd said:


> Oh there will be a package deal, and I know what it is, the list price of a TP4 + List price of the Mini, simple.


I sure hope you are wrong! The deal before the Super Bowl was $550 for a Premiere 4 with lifetime. They said it was $200 off, but it was $100 off as lifetime for current users is already $100 off and this deal was only for current users!


----------



## bdraw

Bigg said:


> You're saying 2.0 supports 240, which I can't find any data to confirm or refute, so I'll give you that one. Real-world tests put 1.1 at around 70mbps. You may be able to get a bit more out of it with multiple streams, and lab testing has pushed it over 100mbps, but you're still running a bit tight on bandwidth when you have 75mbps coming in, you're using that MoCA again to push some of that out into the network, AND you're flinging 19mbps video around. If you hardwire the ONT to the router, you'd be all set.


MoCA 1.1 is 70Mbps per channel, not total per coax. So in the case of FiOS, the ONT to router connection is on channel 1000Mhz, and the LAN is on 1150 Mhz.

















Now if you actually have 16 devices on the same channel, then they are all sharing the same. But if you are only using MoCA to feed your TiVo's internet, and everything else is connected via WiFi or ethernet, you should have plenty of throughput.


----------



## aaronwt

Why would anyone think there wouldn't be enough internet bandwidth on FiOS?
Whether connected to the ONT through MoCA or Ethernet, as long as you are on the lower speed tiers there would be no issue.

Just like Ethernet, the connection from the ONT to the router is separate from the home LAN.


----------



## Bigg

bdraw said:


> MoCA 1.1 is 70Mbps per channel, not total per coax. So in the case of FiOS, the ONT to router connection is on channel 1000Mhz, and the LAN is on 1150 Mhz.
> 
> View attachment 18334
> 
> 
> View attachment 18335
> 
> 
> Now if you actually have 16 devices on the same channel, then they are all sharing the same. But if you are only using MoCA to feed your TiVo's internet, and everything else is connected via WiFi or ethernet, you should have plenty of throughput.


That explains it. Effectively two separate connections. It also explains how they keep LAN devices from the internets. So the router would still be running MoCA 2.0 to the ONT, and then 1.1 out to the LAN with the TiVos?



aaronwt said:


> Why would anyone think there wouldn't be enough internet bandwidth on FiOS?
> Whether connected to the ONT through MoCA or Ethernet, as long as you are on the lower speed tiers there would be no issue.
> 
> Just like Ethernet, the connection from the ONT to the router is separate from the home LAN.


With MoCA 2.0, there is enough, as reasonably priced FIOS internet is 75mbps, although I have seen posts of people who have gotten the 150mbps package for a reasonable price.


----------



## Davisadm

DigitalDawn said:


> I'm personally hoping for a 6-tuner model with Stream built-in. In my household that would be enough tuners for recording and Live TV.


You won't have to wait that long! Just until 3rd or 4th qtr this year!!!!


----------



## slowbiscuit

And you know this how?


----------



## sbiller

slowbiscuit said:


> And you know this how?


He was probably told that during training on the Mini. Sounds reasonable since it aligned with the FCC waiver timing.


----------



## davezatz

slowbiscuit said:


> And you know this how?


I think he mentioned talking to some people at TiVo during CES. But we don't know who he is or who he talked to. But it seems likely TiVo would be building a new platform and the obvious chip is the partner to the one in the Mini and the one in the Pace XG1, which the DISH Hopper also users for transcoding and streaming. I'd say we're looking at new retail DVR hardware towards the end of this year or early next. I find Q3 2013 unlikely, but who knows maybe we'll be surprised.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> He was probably told that during training on the Mini. Sounds reasonable since it aligned with the FCC waiver timing.


Since I decided earlier this week to go OTA, I'm now pushing for the 6 tuner Tivo to have OTA capability in some manner, dongle or built-in.

This would be great because then I could buy 2 Minis.


----------



## dhoward

I am considering upgrading mt HD Tivo to a Premiere 4 and mini. Can someone explain why the mini, which is useless without a P4, requires a $6/month fee? Certainly not for guide data as the P4 has that.


----------



## Arcady

Because TiVo can list mini purchases as added "subscribers" and boost their stock.

Just think of the mini as a $250 device and forget the monthly fees.


----------



## compnurd

dhoward said:


> I am considering upgrading mt HD Tivo to a Premiere 4 and mini. Can someone explain why the mini, which is useless without a P4, requires a $6/month fee? Certainly not for guide data as the P4 has that.


We dont really know. Probably because they can charge it. The same way EVERY cable/SAT company has fees for there boxes and services


----------



## socrplyr

dhoward said:


> I am considering upgrading mt HD Tivo to a Premiere 4 and mini. Can someone explain why the mini, which is useless without a P4, requires a $6/month fee? Certainly not for guide data as the P4 has that.


It doesn't require a $6 a month fee if you pay full price. Full price is $250...


----------



## dhoward

I understand that. That is still no different then a normal Tivo plan. Monthly or lifetime. I know what a monthly fee is for on a Premiere. What is it for on the Mini? If for nothing then charge one fixed price for the unit. BTW $250 is still pricy for a box that is a parasite and can only work with a full blown Tivo.


----------



## moyekj

As stated many times in this thread, if $250 is too high then don't buy one, quite simple. Everyone's price threshold is going to be different. If it's priced too high and the unit doesn't sell the price will come down.


----------



## innocentfreak

mr_smits said:


> Since I decided earlier this week to go OTA, I'm now pushing for the 6 tuner Tivo to have OTA capability in some manner, dongle or built-in.
> 
> This would be great because then I could buy 2 Minis.


I would guess they will offer a 4 Tuner which includes OTA and a 6 tuner that is digital only.


----------



## jrtroo

Are you trying to justify it to be a cost based fee? That is really immaterial- they know their customers like the option to pay for their tivo monthly. Don't want that option, then don't take that option.

In this thread there are some monthly costs noted, guide data, cover art, and ???


----------



## aaronwt

dhoward said:


> I understand that. That is still no different then a normal Tivo plan. Monthly or lifetime. I know what a monthly fee is for on a Premiere. What is it for on the Mini? If for nothing then charge one fixed price for the unit. BTW $250 is still pricy for a box that is a parasite and can only work with a full blown Tivo.


It's certainly cheaper than paying twice the price or more for a regular Premiere to be added to a secondary or tertiary location.


----------



## mr_smits

innocentfreak said:


> I would guess they will offer a 4 Tuner which includes OTA and a 6 tuner that is digital only.


That would work. There really aren't 6 OTA channels I would record at the same time unless I want to have a DISH Hopper style device (recording primetime networks all the time). By the time these devices are released, dynamic tuner issue should be resolved, and if Stream is embedded in the device-- Android compatibility too.

This could be a dream come true.


----------



## dhoward

Goodness. I have been with Tivo since 2000. I was only asking what does a person get for $6.00/Month. I did not expect the answer to be if you don't like it then don't buy it. If the answer is to think of it as a revolving charge to save the upfront $150 then fine. If there are features that you get besides it being a parasite for a Premiere fine. What are they? That was my question. There was nothing more to it.


----------



## slowbiscuit

You get the dubious benefit of paying for your Mini by the month instead of upfront, not for anything that Tivo provides in return. Same as if you bought a car at 0% interest with money down and a monthly payment instead of paying with cash. Difference is you never pay off the Mini so at some point you're pure profit to them, which is why I said 'dubious' benefit. It's the American Way.


----------



## Davisadm

slowbiscuit said:


> And you know this how?


Reliable sources


----------



## jjd_87

davezatz said:


> TiVo just posted a *retail* Mini support note. Includes an interesting chart which sheds some light on which content is sourced via the Internet versus the hub DVR.
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2560


Ok so back to this table....

I have my Premiere 4 hooked directly to my router via ethernet cable. My mini will be in the bedroom hooked up to coax cable so these two Tivo things will be the only devices using MoCA (sharing video). Does this mean that the Premiere doesn't share the internet with the Mini and that I would need a separate way to provide internet access to the Mini to use the mini at full potential?


----------



## sbiller

jjd_87 said:


> Ok so back to this table....
> 
> I have my Premiere 4 hooked directly to my router via ethernet cable. My mini will be in the bedroom hooked up to coax cable so these two Tivo things will be the only devices using MoCA (sharing video). Does this mean that the Premiere doesn't share the internet with the Mini and that I would need a separate way to provide internet access to the Mini to use the mini at full potential?


No. MoCA should be a valid internet source to the Mini.


----------



## atmuscarella

dhoward said:


> Goodness. I have been with Tivo since 2000. I was only asking what does a person get for $6.00/Month. I did not expect the answer to be if you don't like it then don't buy it. If the answer is to think of it as a revolving charge to save the upfront $150 then fine. If there are features that you get besides it being a parasite for a Premiere fine. What are they? That was my question. There was nothing more to it.


The answer is simple, for the $6/mo fee what you get is a Mini that costs $100 up front instead of $250.

I really don't understand why people have such a problem understanding the above, it is how TiVo has operated for most of it's existence you get exactly the same product and service regardless of which payment plan you opt for.


----------



## atmuscarella

slowbiscuit said:


> You get the dubious benefit of paying for your Mini by the month instead of upfront, not for anything that Tivo provides in return. Same as if you bought a car at 0% interest with money down and a monthly payment instead of paying with cash. Difference is you never pay off the Mini so at some point you're pure profit to them, which is why I said 'dubious' benefit. It's the American Way.


Extremely dubious at best as I have a hard time believing someone who has bought a 4 tuner TiVo DVR and one or more Minis isn't going to keep the system for the 25 months it will take to be better off paying the lifetime fee than the monthly one on a Mini.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> The answer is simple, for the $6/mo fee what you get is a Mini that costs $100 instead of $250.
> 
> I really don't understand why people have such a problem understanding the above it is how TiVo has operated for most of it's existence you get exactly the same product and service regardless of which payment plan you opt for.


But if you go that route both people get a Mini for $100, while the person that gets lifetime pays only an additional $150. While the person that pays $6 a month pays $150 over 25 months and after those 25 months continues to pay $6 a month indefinitely. Each month past that inital 25 months increases the cost of use more and more to the owner. While the owner that purchased lifetime never has an increase in the cost of their Mini.

And there is nothing wrong with paying monthly if that is what someone wants. At least TiVo gives their users both options instead of forcing everyone to pay all the money upfront like some other DVR makers have in the past.


----------



## jjd_87

sbiller said:


> No. MoCA should be a valid internet source to the Mini.


So it gets video and internet from the Premiere (over MoCA)?


----------



## TivoQueensDad

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet (lots of comments in this thread), but Tivo is now advertising the mini online at http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html , as expected - $99.99 / $5.99 per month or $149.99 lifetime

It's also listed under "Products" and "Shop" at tivo.com, but those links appear broken at the moment.


----------



## atmuscarella

TivoQueensDad said:


> Not sure if anyone has posted this yet (lots of comments in this thread), but Tivo is now advertising the mini online at http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html , as expected - $99.99 / $5.99 per month or $149.99 lifetime
> 
> It's also listed under "Products" and "Shop" at tivo.com, but those links appear broken at the moment.


Interesting the video was blocked for me and they do not list Amazon. For those who have multiple Premieres can you rent an Amazon Video on one and stream it to the other? or is steaming of Amazon videos blocked?


----------



## jjd_87

TivoQueensDad said:


> Not sure if anyone has posted this yet (lots of comments in this thread), but Tivo is now advertising the mini online at http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html , as expected - $99.99 / $5.99 per month or $149.99 lifetime
> 
> It's also listed under "Products" and "Shop" at tivo.com, but those links appear broken at the moment.


Well the link to buy it doesn't work yet. But we are getting close and everything we've learned to this point seems to hold true. Very excited to get my hands on one!


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> Interesting the video was blocked for me and they do not list Amazon. For those who have multiple Premieres can you rent an Amazon Video on one and stream it to the other? or is steaming of Amazon videos blocked?


It's blocked from streaming from another device. You can only watch on the TiVo that it was downloaded to.

EDIT: I guess my experiece is with purchased content, which is what you have to do to watch the TV shows. For rental I would expect it to be the same, but maybe not.


----------



## dave13077

TivoQueensDad said:


> Not sure if anyone has posted this yet (lots of comments in this thread), but Tivo is now advertising the mini online at http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-mini/index.html , as expected - $99.99 / $5.99 per month or $149.99 lifetime
> 
> It's also listed under "Products" and "Shop" at tivo.com, but those links appear broken at the moment.


Does anyone find it odd that Netflix is not mentioned anywhere on the page? It also doesn't show Netflix as an option from the screenshot of the 'My Shows" list.


----------



## djwilso

Davisadm said:


> You won't have to wait that long! Just until 3rd or 4th qtr this year!!!!


Well, I have to say that that thoroughly rustled my jimmies. 

That would be awesome.


----------



## aaronwt

dave13077 said:


> Does anyone find it odd that Netflix is not mentioned anywhere on the page? It also doesn't show Netflix as an option from the screenshot of the 'My Shows" list.


If the Mini can't stream Netflix that would be a strike against it. For me though, fortunately the Roku 3 is coming out the same day as the Mini. So the room that I will be using a Mini will also be getting one of my old Roku 2 boxes. So if the Mini cannot stream Netflix, it won't be a detriment for me.


----------



## sbiller

dave13077 said:


> Does anyone find it odd that Netflix is not mentioned anywhere on the page? It also doesn't show Netflix as an option from the screenshot of the 'My Shows" list.


Appears that Netflix and Amazon are not supported...



> Provides access to movies and music from HuluPlus, Pandora,® Spotify, YouTube and other broadband content providers*


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> Appears that Netflix and Amazon are not supported...


Yikes! I understand the Amazon downloads aren't supported, but Netflix is all streaming. I wonder if it is a technical or license restriction.


----------



## sbiller

mr_smits said:


> Yikes! I understand the Amazon downloads aren't supported, but Netflix is all streaming. I wonder if it is a technical or license restriction.


Good question. If I had to guess I would say a license restriction would be much more likely considering the box support Hulu Plus.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> Good question. If I had to guess I would say a license restriction would be much more likely considering the box support Hulu Plus.


Hopefully Tivo will work on that. Netflix streaming is a big deal, and having it missing on Minis is concerning.


----------



## sbiller

mr_smits said:


> Hopefully Tivo will work on that. Netflix streaming is a big deal, and having it missing on Minis is concerning.


Agreed. I suspect that getting Netflix and Amazon Instant Video are probably a high priority for them although only retail subs are effected. *

* - Alaska's GCI cable operator will launch including Amazon on the Premiere. It doesn't look like they are launching with the Mini so the lack of Amazon could be the reason.


----------



## atmuscarella

Thought I would revisit the math just for the fun of it on some options that people will have available with the Mini. I using full retail price no discounts, lifetime service on all devices, and assumed the family didn't qualify for Multi Serivce Discount on the first TiVo DVR:

2 TV Setup:
$1000 = 1 Premiere 4 + 1 Mini
$1200 = 2 Premieres
$1300 = 1 Premiere + 1 Premiere 4
$1400 = 2 Premiere 4s
3 TV Setup:
$1250 = 1 Premiere 4 + 2 Minis
$1550 = 1 Premiere 4 + 1 Premiere + 1 Mini
$1650 = 2 Premiere 4 + 1 Min
$1750 = 3 Premieres
$1850 = 1 Premiere 4 + 2 Premieres
$1950 = 2 Premiere 4s + 1 Premiere
$2050 = 3 Premiere 4s
Seem like the mini does a good job of lowering the whole home costs for 3 or more TVs (min with Mini of $1250 vs min without Mini of $1750) plus for many people the Mini solutions will also reduce cable card and/or outlet fees.


----------



## mr_smits

sbiller said:


> Agreed. I suspect that getting Netflix and Amazon Instant Video are probably a high priority for them although only retail subs are effected. *
> 
> * - Alaska's GCI cable operator will launch including Amazon on the Premiere. It doesn't look like they are launching with the Mini so the lack of Amazon could be the reason.


Amazon Prime/Instant streaming will be on the Premiere? Interesting.


----------



## innocentfreak

mr_smits said:


> Amazon Prime/Instant streaming will be on the Premiere? Interesting.


Instant isn't their Prime service. It is the app they already have.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> Agreed. I suspect that getting Netflix and Amazon Instant Video are probably a high priority for them although only retail subs are effected. *
> 
> * - Alaska's GCI cable operator will launch including Amazon on the Premiere. It doesn't look like they are launching with the Mini so the lack of Amazon could be the reason.


Does the Stream work with Amazon content? I didn't think it did due to some protection of the content.


----------



## mr_smits

innocentfreak said:


> Instant isn't their Prime service. It is the app they already have.


Oh. So just the standard Amazon downloadable content options like have been available for many years.


----------



## Philmatic

Additional documents uploaded:

Specs: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/tivo_mini_specs.pdf
Start Here: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/Mini_Start_Here_Poster.pdf

They also updated the Whole Home diagram to include the Mini: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-wholehome/index.html


----------



## bradleys

Yeah - I called that price on the nose! Just as I suspected... I haven't purchased a 4 tuner TiVo yet, I am kind of hoping that they do a minor processor refresh soon.

When that happens I will get an XL6 and two Mini's... Should take care of me just fine!


----------



## Loach

Disappointing that it doesn't support Netflix. I may go see if my local Best Buy has any of those $35 clearance 320GB Premieres left. For $185 extra (lifetime) + $1.99 monthly cable card rental I'd get full functionality on my 2nd primary TV and extra storage. Of course, those units are probably gone....

Will probably pick up a couple Minis later but they'll be relegated to the office and bedroom TVs (and I'll be opportunistic on price deals).


----------



## P42

And where are you getting Lifetime for $185???


----------



## Loach

P42 said:


> And where are you getting Lifetime for $185???


No I mean the difference would be $185 under lifetime scenarios for either:

BB Clearance 320GB Premiere: $35 + $400 Lifetime = $435
Mini: $100 + $150 Lifetime = $250

Difference = $185


----------



## tatergator1

P42 said:


> And where are you getting Lifetime for $185???


He means ($35 + $400) - ($100 + $150) = $185 more; Where those are 320 GB Premiere and Mini, plus Lifetime service, respectively.

Edit...Too slow.


----------



## Arcady

Philmatic said:


> Additional documents uploaded:
> 
> Specs: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/tivo_mini_specs.pdf
> Start Here: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/Mini_Start_Here_Poster.pdf
> 
> They also updated the Whole Home diagram to include the Mini: http://www3-beta.tivo.com/products/tivo-wholehome/index.html


All of these URLs have "beta" in them, which indicates to me that they are not ready to be public. None of the links for more info or buying work yet.

In the setup page, I noticed this text:
"Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection. A wireless connection is not supported."

This looks like bad editing of a sentence that probably used to say "Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection or a wireless connection."


----------



## Loach

Arcady said:


> All of these URLs have "beta" in them, which indicates to me that they are not ready to be public.


But that's what makes it fun....


----------



## mazman

Once the Mini is connected to a 4 tuner TiVo, can it view shows recorded on 2 tuner TiVos on the network?

I ask because the second bullet on the product overview makes me think it might not 
http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/tivo_mini_specs.pdf


----------



## Arcady

Yes, it can view shows from 2-tuner and 4-tuner Premieres on the network.


----------



## Loach

mazman said:


> Once the Mini is connected to a 4 tuner TiVo, can it view shows recorded on 2 tuner TiVos on the network?
> 
> I ask because the second bullet on the product overview makes me think it might not
> http://www3-beta.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/tivo_mini_specs.pdf


Recorded shows, yes.

Live TV, no. That 2nd bullet mentions live TV, which probably why it specifies a 4-tuner box.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> If the Mini can't stream Netflix that would be a strike against it. For me though, fortunately the Roku 3 is coming out the same day as the Mini. So the room that I will be using a Mini will also be getting one of my old Roku 2 boxes. So if the Mini cannot stream Netflix, it won't be a detriment for me.


 To me it would be a big strike against it and possibly a deal breaker. I intended to use it as a replacement UI for my slow Elite (which can sluggishly run Netflix), so missing Netflix is a big deal to me.


----------



## moyekj

TiVo's own marketing is already wrong:


> The TiVo Mini conveniently allows you to enjoy all the entertainment from your TiVo Premiere 4 or Premiere XL4/Elite DVR in another room through your home network (Ethernet or MoCA setup only. Wireless setup not supported).


They don't mention that you can also stream programs from 2 tuner Premiere units. Perhaps they figured mentioning 2 tuner Premiere units would just confuse things more that it is worth.


----------



## lessd

Arcady said:


> All of these URLs have "beta" in them, which indicates to me that they are not ready to be public. None of the links for more info or buying work yet.
> 
> In the setup page, I noticed this text:
> "Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection. A wireless connection is not supported."
> 
> This looks like bad editing of a sentence that probably used to say "Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection or a wireless connection."


The Mini will not be able to use a Wireless connection, just direct or the built in MoCa.


----------



## Jonathan_S

sbiller said:


> jjd_87 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so back to this table....
> 
> I have my Premiere 4 hooked directly to my router via ethernet cable. My mini will be in the bedroom hooked up to coax cable so these two Tivo things will be the only devices using MoCA (sharing video). Does this mean that the Premiere doesn't share the internet with the Mini and that I would need a separate way to provide internet access to the Mini to use the mini at full potential?
> 
> 
> 
> No. MoCA should be a valid internet source to the Mini.
Click to expand...

I don't remember if the Premiere 4 defaults to bridging MoCA to Ethernet, JJd_87 might need to go into the network menus and enable that.

But with MoCA and bridging turned on the Mini will have no problem talking to the router (and through it to the internet). Signal path would be: 
Mini --[MoCA]--> Premiere 4 --[Ethernet]--> Router --[cable/fios/dls]--> Internet


----------



## lessd

Jonathan_S said:


> I don't remember if the Premiere 4 defaults to bridging MoCA to Ethernet, JJd_87 might need to go into the network menus and enable that.
> 
> But with MoCA and bridging turned on the Mini will have no problem talking to the router (and through it to the internet). Signal path would be:
> Mini --[MoCA]--> Premiere 4 --[Ethernet]--> Router --[cable/fios/dls]--> Internet


I just set up a MoCa and one TP4 was already directly connected to the router, so I just turned on the Moca and it was automatically bridged to the router, just connected 2 Moca adapters to my other two TPs and turned on the Moca on my other TP4 and all works great, I getting between 65Mb/s to 75 Mb/s on all TPs on xfer speed.


----------



## UCLABB

Mini video output.

I plan to get a mini and for a time have it connected to an old TV that only has component inputs, no HDMI.

Looking at the picture of the back of the mini, it seems to have only one jack called component rather than the normal 3. Is there some multi jack adapter that needs to be used?


----------



## sbiller

UCLABB said:


> Mini video output.
> 
> I plan to get a mini and for a time have it connected to an old TV that only has component inputs, no HDMI.
> 
> Looking at the picture of the back of the mini, it seems to have only one jack called component rather than the normal 3. Is there some multi jack adapter that needs to be used?


Based on the data sheet, it looks like the Mini ships with an HDMI cable. I expect there will be some sort of accessory cable you'll have to buy to use the component jack which breaks out the signal. I expect we would see TiVo post that device along with the IR extender mentioned earlier upon launch.


----------



## Aero 1

Arcady said:


> All of these URLs have "beta" in them, which indicates to me that they are not ready to be public. None of the links for more info or buying work yet.
> 
> In the setup page, I noticed this text:
> "Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection. A wireless connection is not supported."
> 
> This looks like bad editing of a sentence that probably used to say "Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection or a wireless connection."


yea, its not a typo. the typo doesnt extend to pictures hammering the point that wireless is not supported.


----------



## sbiller

Aero 1 said:


> yea, its not a typo. the typo doesnt extend to pictures hammering the point that wireless is not supported.


Not surprising considering the TiVo Stream requires that the Premiere is wired as well. Of course, support and what users on TCF will try are something different. As mentioned earlier, if a user has a robust enough WiFi set-up it might actually work... I'm curious to see what results people have trying to get this thing working wirelessly since hi quality MPEG2 + the TiVo Mini to Host DVR proprietary control might require a lot of bandwidth -- probably 20 Mbps.


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> Not surprising considering the TiVo Stream requires that the Premiere is wired as well. Of course, support and what users on TCF will try are something different. As mentioned earlier, if a user has a robust enough WiFi set-up it might actually work... I'm curious to see what results people have trying to get this thing working wirelessly since hi quality MPEG2 + the TiVo Mini to Host DVR proprietary control might require a lot of bandwidth -- probably 20 Mbps.


That's low bandwidth. Wireless N at 2.4 Ghz or 5Ghz has no problem with speeds several times that if you don't have any interference issues or saturated APs. On my Laptop I can get 150Mb/s throughput over 5Ghz WiFi with large transfers and with my wireless bridges I get over 100Mb/s throughput over 2.4 and 5Ghz. I can connect any of my Premieres to one of my wireless Bridges and the experience will be identical to when it's connected to the wired portion of the network when streaming from another TiVo. So I would expect that when I test the Mini with a wireless bridge that it would perform the same way as the Premiere does on the wireless Bridge.


----------



## crxssi

mr_smits said:


> That would work. There really aren't 6 OTA channels I would record at the same time unless I want to have a DISH Hopper style device (recording primetime networks all the time).


Some of us (like me) use both OTA *and* Cable. Why? Because OTA signals can be much, much better (much higher bitrate) than what is offered on cable. It is also a good backup for locals in case of CATV failure.

So although there might not be a great demand for a 6 tuner OTA ONLY unit, having a 6 tuner unit which just so happens to also work OTA is a true benefit.


----------



## crxssi

bradleys said:


> Yeah - I called that price on the nose! Just as I suspected... I haven't purchased a 4 tuner TiVo yet, I am kind of hoping that they do a --minor-- major processor refresh soon.
> 
> When that happens I will get an XL6 and two Mini's... Should take care of me just fine!


+1

I won't spend a dime on any more or additional TiVo devices at this point until there is at least a significant CPU update along with it.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

crxssi said:


> Some of us (like me) use both OTA *and* Cable. Why? Because OTA signals can be much, much better (much higher bitrate) than what is offered on cable.


What are your sources that cable companies are compressing locals? I know that Cox for example does not compress locals at all. They pass the bitrate they receive to the customer. The local TV stations are the ones screwing with the compression by adding more sub-channels.

In fact in a lot of cases the cable companies are not the ones compressing the cable channels, its the provider so they can get more channels on the satellite.


----------



## crxssi

Kingpcgeek said:


> What are your sources that cable companies are compressing locals? I know that Cox for example does not compress locals at all.


WRONG!!!



> They pass the bitrate they receive to the customer. The local TV stations are the ones screwing with the compression by adding more sub-channels.


W R O N G ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

How do I know this?

1) I have Cox Hampton Roads.
2) I could easily see the difference 
3) I have transferred the recorded video off the TiVo and examined the bitrate on my computer and it was much different (higher) on OTA compared to Cox recordings of the same local station/program.

Granted, this was a few years ago and I have not repeated the tests since. But if memory serves me correctly, it was true for most of the local channels. I was actually shocked.


----------



## moyekj

Since the retail release of Mini is imminent there should be a TCF Mini sub-forum at this point.


----------



## Bigg

At one point, they were required to pass locals through unadultered, but apparently that has since lapsed, as Comcast compresses the snot out of our locals. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get much of anything OTA to really do a good comparison.


----------



## innocentfreak

moyekj said:


> TiVo's own marketing is already wrong:
> 
> They don't mention that you can also stream programs from 2 tuner Premiere units. Perhaps they figured mentioning 2 tuner Premiere units would just confuse things more that it is worth.


Well it is the beta site so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are still working out the wording.


----------



## jmpage2

What's interesting to me is that if Mini was this close why didn't they show it at CES. I am relieved that TiVo has priced it somewhat reasonably.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jmpage2 said:


> What's interesting to me is that if Mini was this close why didn't they show it at CES. I am relieved that TiVo has priced it somewhat reasonably.


They did. 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


----------



## jmpage2

BigJimOutlaw said:


> They did.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/


What I mean is a real public announcement and the product available to demo by typical attendees not a few special sneak peaks for a select group of gadget bloggers.


----------



## HazelW

jmpage2 said:


> What's interesting to me is that if Mini was this close why didn't they show it at CES. I am relieved that TiVo has priced it somewhat reasonably.


How is $250 "somewhat reasonable" when you can buy an apple TV or Roku for under $100.


----------



## davezatz

jmpage2 said:


> What I mean is a real public announcement and the product available to demo by typical attendees not a few special sneak peaks for a select group of gadget bloggers.


It was in the public area of their booth. I had no formal briefing, nothing scheduled, but played with it a bit and shot a few pics.


----------



## sbiller

HazelW said:


> How is $250 "somewhat reasonable" when you can buy an apple TV or Roku for under $100.


How is the cost of an OTT streamer like the Apple TV or Roku a fair comparison? Those boxes don't include MoCA and don't support live and DVR'ed linear programming or On Demand (Xfinity-only).

A better comparison is the Ceton Echo WMC extender which retails for $179 or the retired MoxiMate which was $299 before Arris withdrew it from retail.


----------



## DaveDFW

HazelW said:


> How is $250 "somewhat reasonable" when you can buy an apple TV or Roku for under $100.


You are correct, of course, but the answer you'll read here is "but those aren't Tivos!"

Those other devices have more capabilities than a Mini and cost less.


----------



## jmpage2

HazelW said:


> How is $250 "somewhat reasonable" when you can buy an apple TV or Roku for under $100.


It's somewhat reasonable because many were anticipating a cost of $100-$150 more. It's overpriced for what it is but the TiVo ecosystem is very sticky.

If a roku or ATV could stream from a TiVo and do live tv from a master tivo, then it would be overpriced.


----------



## Bigg

sbiller said:


> How is the cost of an OTT streamer like the Apple TV or Roku a fair comparison? Those boxes don't include MoCA and don't support live and DVR'ed linear programming or On Demand (Xfinity-only).
> 
> A better comparison is the Ceton Echo WMC extender which retails for $179 or the retired MoxiMate which was $299 before Arris withdrew it from retail.


They're all marked up. I'll give TiVo the MoCA, which the Echo doesn't have, but why should the hardware on any of these things be any more complicated (other than MoCA) than what Roku or Apple is doing?


----------



## DaveDFW

sbiller said:


> How is the cost of an OTT streamer like the Apple TV or Roku a fair comparison? Those boxes don't include MoCA...


Sure, those devices don't include MoCA, but so what? Both offer wireless instead and still manage to be profitable (and popular!) at less than 1/2 the full price of a Mini.

Tivo's wireless adapter alone costs nearly as much as an Apple TV or Roku.


----------



## Test

crxssi said:


> WRONG!!!
> 
> W R O N G ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


----------



## neo_sapien

I have one primary TV in my home which is almost always being watched by someone, and 3 secondary TVs which are rarely watched. The chances that all 3 secondary TVs would be watched simultaneously are almost nil. Can I get a Premiere 4 and 3 Minis, set the Premiere 4 to share 2 of the tuners, and then will I be able to watch Live TV on any 2 of the 3 Minis?

My limited understanding of the situation is that if someone is watching TV on the Premiere 4, and another person is watching live TV on Mini 1, and yet another person is watching live TV on Mini 2, and then another person wishes to watch live TV on Mini 3, then Mini 3 will say sorry, no tuners available. But if someone stops watching Mini 2, then Mini 3 will have a tuner available and you'll be able to watch Live TV on it. Is this a correct assessment?


----------



## neo_sapien

Also, regarding TiVo Moca, I have FiOS in my home. My Verizon ONT connects to the router through coax, so I guess that means Moca is enabled already. Will I be able to just connect my Premiere 4 to the coaxial cable, and then connect all the Minis to the coaxial cable? Or will I have to connect an ethernet cable to the Premiere 4, before I can connect a coaxial cable to the Minis?


----------



## Arcady

Aero 1 said:


> yea, its not a typo.


"Connect your TiVo Mini to your home network using either a wired connection."

That's a typo. "using either a wired connection" or what? You don't put "either" in a sentence and then have one choice.

I never meant that wireless is supported, but TiVo obviously edited that sentence.


----------



## Arcady

neo_sapien said:


> I have one primary TV in my home which is almost always being watched by someone, and 3 secondary TVs which are rarely watched. The chances that all 3 secondary TVs would be watched simultaneously are almost nil. Can I get a Premiere 4 and 3 Minis, set the Premiere 4 to share 2 of the tuners, and then will I be able to watch Live TV on any 2 of the 3 Minis?
> 
> My limited understanding of the situation is that if someone is watching TV on the Premiere 4, and another person is watching live TV on Mini 1, and yet another person is watching live TV on Mini 2, and then another person wishes to watch live TV on Mini 3, then Mini 3 will say sorry, no tuners available. But if someone stops watching Mini 2, then Mini 3 will have a tuner available and you'll be able to watch Live TV on it. Is this a correct assessment?


Yes, someone with two cable-supplied Minis confirmed this. They set both Minis up and only allocated 1 tuner on the Q (Premiere 4) and it worked as you describe. The second Mini would say "no tuners available" when the other was using live TV. Stop watching live TV on the first Mini and the second could watch.


----------



## neo_sapien

Excellent, thank you Arcady.


----------



## lessd

HazelW said:


> How is $250 "somewhat reasonable" when you can buy an apple TV or Roku for under $100.


Apple TV or Roku does not have built in Moca and will not interface with a TiVo(s), OH!, and they can't do On-Demand.


----------



## DaveDFW

lessd said:


> Apple TV or Roku does not have built in Moca and will not interface with a TiVo(s), OH!, and they can't do On-Demand.


Again, who cares about MoCA? Those other devices manage to include wireless at less than half the price of a Mini. Are people convinced that MoCA on a chip costs significantly more than wireless on a chip?

Those other devices don't interface with a Tivo, but again, so what? They deliver video entertainment to a connected display device, which in essence is all that Tivo really does.


----------



## Davisadm

DaveDFW said:


> Again, who cares about MoCA? Those other devices manage to include wireless at less than half the price of a Mini. Are people convinced that MoCA on a chip costs significantly more than wireless on a chip?
> 
> Those other devices don't interface with a Tivo, but again, so what? They deliver video entertainment to a connected display device, which in essence is all that Tivo really does.


MoCA is MUCH more reliable and faster than wireless interfaces. With all the wireless out there, interference is bound to happen and slow things down, if not break the wireless connection completely.


----------



## DaveDFW

Davisadm said:


> MoCA is MUCH more reliable and faster than wireless interfaces. With all the wireless out there, interference is bound to happen and slow things down, if not break the wireless connection completely.


I agree MoCA is an improvement over wireless, I use standalone MoCA adapters all over my house. I'm just countering the argument that the Mini's high price is somehow justified by the inclusion of MoCA in the Mini, when the cost of doing so is no different than the networking solutions included in Mini competitors' devices.


----------



## Arcady

Davisadm said:


> MoCA is MUCH more reliable and faster than wireless interfaces. With all the wireless out there, interference is bound to happen and slow things down, if not break the wireless connection completely.


I completely agree with you on this. I regularly do a wireless scan in my home, and there are constantly new wireless access points showing up. People all around me are setting these things up and not bothering to see what already exists and on which channel. I have three APs in my residence, all on different channels. It can work great until someone else sets up their device on the same channel as one of mine. Then I have to change channels to fix it.

MoCA is completely internal, not interfered with by anything someone outside does, cheap to set up, and faster than N wireless. (And built-in to new TiVo hardware.)


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> You are correct, of course, but the answer you'll read here is "but those aren't Tivos!"
> 
> Those other devices have more capabilities than a Mini and cost less.


Really? Thous other devices can stream content from a Premiere, have MoCA, and can provide you with access to a live cable channel?? If you think $250 is too much that is fine but a Roku can not do what a Mini is designed to do and is in no way a "competing" device, heck the Roku can not even play the MPEG2 recordings on your Premiere at all.


----------



## Dan203

Let's not forget the Mini is only $100. It's the service that costs $6/mo or $150/lifetime. So the hadrware itself is competitive with devices like the Roku or Apple TV.

Now let's assume for a second TiVo released an app for Roku that allowed it to stream from a TiVo. Since the Roku is MPEG4 only you would also need a TiVo Stream which is another $130. So about $230 total.

The price really isn't that bad if TiVo can ever get it's "one box" inititve to actually pan out. But for that they need a much faster processor for running the apps. It sounds like the Mini might have that, and hopefully whatever future TiVo is released will as well.


----------



## bradleys

Price is based on economies of scale and manufacturing / distribution capabilities.

If you are going to compare all products to Apple, then only Apple will ever be able to compete. Hang back and wait until Apple decides to make a DVR for you...

TiVo isn't profitable in the retail market even at these prices, so your argument that "it should be cheaper" is not based on reality.

At this point none of the entrants into the connected DVR market have been able to compete "profitably" at any price.


----------



## DaveDFW

atmuscarella said:


> Really? Thous other devices can stream content from a Premiere, have MoCA, and can provide you with access to a live cable channel?? If you think $250 is too much that is fine but a Roku can not do what a Mini is designed to do and is in no way a "competing" device, heck the Roku can not even play the MPEG2 recordings on your Premiere at all.


I don't understand why everyone is so stuck on the included MoCA. Yes, it's a good technology, but it doesn't elevate a mediocre product to greatness when standalone MoCA bridges are cheap.

Those other devices are absolutely competitors if a consumer's goal is video entertainment on a connected display. They simply accomplish their delivery in different ways--the Mini requires an additional expensive Tivo solution on the local network, the others require internet streaming--but they basically deliver the same end product.

If your only goal is increased investment in Tivo hardware then buy a Mini. If your goal is simply video entertainment, you are not locked into Tivo's ecosystem.


----------



## morac

Dan203 said:


> Let's not forget the Mini is only $100. It's the service that costs $6/mo or $150/lifetime. So the hadrware itself is competitive with devices like the Roku or Apple TV.


The service fee has no basis on anything as it's already been shown by TiVo's own support documents that the Mini is 100% dependent on the host for all data. As such the service fee is an arbitrary amount that TiVo came up with to prevent lost revenue from purchases of Minis. It's like Comcast's $10 a month HD fee to "enable" HD functionality in cable boxes and TiVo's.


----------



## jmpage2

morac said:


> The service fee has no basis on anything as it's already been shown by TiVo's own support documents that the Mini is 100% dependent on the host for all data. As such the service fee is an arbitrary amount that TiVo came up with to prevent lost revenue from purchases of Minis. It's like Comcast's $10 a month HD fee to "enable" HD functionality in cable boxes and TiVo's.


Sure, but the flip side is that TiVo would have very likely increased the price of the unit substantially if it didn't have a service fee.

Personally I think the "all in" cost for one of these should be more like $149-$199 (and who knows, via bundling they might offer that kind of price for a whole home solution)... but I don't think the $249 cost is outrageous. Some people are paying $8-$12 for outlet fees, box rental fees or cable card fees. If you are paying $10 a month for a crappy cable box or outlet charge, you will break even on a Lifetime TiVo Mini which won't carry any such fees in pretty short order.

Many of us had been anticipating TiVo trying to go for a hardware charge of $149-$199 in addition to a $199 or so lifetime service fee... so for those people (myself included), $249 is pretty reasonable.

I can actually sell one older lifetime S3 and almost cover the cost of two of these boxes, which will also have the faster, HD UI.


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> Those other devices are absolutely competitors if a consumer's goal is video entertainment on a connected display. They simply accomplish their delivery in different ways--the Mini requires an additional expensive Tivo solution on the local network, the others require internet streaming--but they basically deliver the same end product.


What you are saying is the same as saying a car and airplane are competing devices because they both provide transportation. The transportation methods are what are competing not the devices.

The Roku is part of an Internet streaming media delivery system and the Mini is part of a cable TV delivery system. What is competing is the media delivery source not the devices used by each source to deliver the media.



DaveDFW said:


> If your only goal is increased investment in Tivo hardware then buy a Mini. If your goal is simply video entertainment, you are not locked into Tivo's ecosystem.


The purpose of the Mini is to part of a TiVo whole home DVR system providing a more affordable way to view the content being provided by your cable TV provider on more than one screen. If that isn't what you are looking for then don't buy a Mini. If you think you can find something else that is cheaper and/or better that will do that go ahead and buy/rent it. But I will assure you a Roku will not allow you to view the content from a DVR or allow you to view a live cable TV channel which is the main purpose of the Mini.


----------



## compnurd

DaveDFW said:


> I don't understand why everyone is so stuck on the included MoCA. Yes, it's a good technology, but it doesn't elevate a mediocre product to greatness when standalone MoCA bridges are cheap.
> 
> Those other devices are absolutely competitors if a consumer's goal is video entertainment on a connected display. They simply accomplish their delivery in different ways--the Mini requires an additional expensive Tivo solution on the local network, the others require internet streaming--but they basically deliver the same end product.
> 
> If your only goal is increased investment in Tivo hardware then buy a Mini. If your goal is simply video entertainment, you are not locked into Tivo's ecosystem.


The Moca inclusion is huge. It means for 99% of people out there they just need to hook there Host Premiere up to the internet and there minis just need the coax to connect.


----------



## L David Matheny

compnurd said:


> The Moca inclusion is huge. It means for 99% of people out there they just need to hook there Host Premiere up to the internet and there minis just need the coax to connect.


But isn't the Mini using MoCA _only_ for a LAN connection? The Mini has no other use for it, since it has no tuners, right? So unless the Mini is being located where there's already a TV with a coax connection, it should be just as easy to run CAT5 cable as to run coaxial cable. I haven't used my TV's tuners in years.


----------



## P42

bradleys said:


> Price is based on economies of scale and manufacturing / distribution capabilities.


I disagree. Price is based on what the market will bear, and on March 6th we'll see how well the market will bear that price. Increased profit is based on economies of scale and manufacturing / distribution capabilities.


----------



## atmuscarella

L David Matheny said:


> But isn't the Mini using MoCA _only_ for a LAN connection? The Mini has no other use for it, since it has no tuners, right? So unless the Mini is being located where there's already a TV with a coax connection, it should be just as easy to run CAT5 cable as to run coaxial cable. I haven't used my TV's tuners in years.


While I am sure there are people who have TVs setup without access to any cable tv most people will be putting Minis on a TV that had cable TV to it before so there will be a coax run to the TV after all what where they watch on the TV before getting the Mini?


----------



## moyekj

L David Matheny said:


> But isn't the Mini using MoCA _only_ for a LAN connection? The Mini has no other use for it, since it has no tuners, right? So unless the Mini is being located where there's already a TV with a coax connection, it should be just as easy to run CAT5 cable as to run coaxial cable. I haven't used my TV's tuners in years.


 Many residences have coax in every room that a TV would normally go. The same can't necessarily be said about cat 5 and that is what gives MoCA a market in the first place.

Ideally there would be a cheaper version of Mini hardware without MoCA and just ethernet, but I doubt we'll ever see that and it's doubtful it would be that much cheaper to justify a whole new model.


----------



## DaveDFW

atmuscarella said:


> What you are saying is the same as saying a car and airplane are competing devices because they both provide transportation. The transportation methods are what are competing not the devices.


Your analogy only works if one of the devices can get your video entertainment delivered 10 times faster than the other.

If the Mini and competing devices were analogized with transportation, each would be a different kind of car with different features. Each car can deliver its occupants to a destination with differing levels of comfort but the end result is the same.

Maybe only one of these cars can tune a specific radio station, but the other cars can tune different stations with the same playlist. You still have access to the same programming, but only one of the cars can access via the special radio station. The people who refuse to access the programming on this specific station in the alternate method must buy the first car.

From what I gather, the Mini would be a rental-quality car which happens to be priced like a Mercedes.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> What you are saying is the same as saying a car and airplane are competing devices because they both provide transportation. The transportation methods are what are competing not the devices.
> 
> The Roku is part of an Internet streaming media delivery system and the Mini is part of a cable TV delivery system. What is competing is the media delivery source not the devices used by each source to deliver the media.
> 
> The purpose of the Mini is to part of a TiVo whole home DVR system providing a more affordable way to view the content being provided by your cable TV provider on more than one screen. If that isn't what you are looking for then don't buy a Mini. If you think you can find something else that is cheaper and/or better that will do that go ahead and buy/rent it. But I will assure you a Roku will not allow you to view the content from a DVR or allow you to view a live cable TV channel which is the main purpose of the Mini.


Well actually Time Warner is supposed to have an app(err channel ) on the Roku that lets users stream 300 live channels. But to me that is like FiOS on the Xbox allowing you to stream live channels. It like going back in time, to before VCRs existed, and watching TV. Why would I want to watch all those channels in real time? Like I did back in the 70's and early 80's. To me that is crazy.


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> The service fee has no basis on anything as it's already been shown by TiVo's own support documents that the Mini is 100% dependent on the host for all data. As such the service fee is an arbitrary amount that TiVo came up with to prevent lost revenue from purchases of Minis. It's like Comcast's $10 a month HD fee to "enable" HD functionality in cable boxes and TiVo's.


We have no idea what recurring monthly costs TiVo has to service the Mini unless, for example, you have access to the TiVo confidential agreement with Tribune Media Services. I agree, however, that its significantly less than the $5.95/mo they are charging. I also agree that ultimately its a business decision for TiVo that will hopefully lead to increased retail subscribers, lower churn, and a better experience. If the retail sub count continues to degrade quarter-over-quarter, TiVo WILL eventually exit the retail business and all of us will be stuck with cable operator provided solutions (e.g., DIRECTV, DISH, AT&T U-Verse).


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> We have no idea what recurring monthly costs TiVo has to service the Mini unless, for example, you have access to the TiVo confidential agreement with Tribune Media Services.


First, let me say I don't have much of an issue with the fee or the lifetime option. Although I'd think it makes way more sense to go with Lifetime for those anticipate keeping this for any length of time given the break even point and potential of fee increases and whatnot. I also anticipate this will compare favorably in price to Verizon's upcoming clients/extenders. (I'm in a FiOS market.) Having said that, TiVo's expenses to run the business are their own. And my free iPad/iPhone TiVo app also is chock full of Tribune guide data. The Stream and Mini are quite similar in function - moving content from a host DVR to another screen. Obviously there's some technical distinctions in how it's accomplished, but the end result seems quite similar even if the pricing model isn't.


----------



## DaveDFW

sbiller said:


> If the retail sub count continues to degrade quarter-over-quarter, TiVo WILL eventually exit the retail business and all of us will be stuck with cable operator provided solutions (e.g., DIRECTV, DISH, AT&T U-Verse).


We don't know that for sure. Maybe the traditional DVR market will vanish and the future of video entertainment will be something different altogether. Maybe the future is where every program is delivered on-demand and nothing is recorded and stored on customer-owned equipment.

Just because Tivo has the only retail DVR solution doesn't mean people are obligated to buy into the system. If the public feels Tivo's devices are overpriced for the service delivered the devices won't sell. I'm not going to feel sorry for Tivo if they fail in the marketplace because they are unable to capitalize on their virtual monopoly.


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> We don't know that for sure. Maybe the traditional DVR market will vanish and the future of video entertainment will be something different altogether. Maybe the future is where every program is delivered on-demand and nothing is recorded and stored on customer-owned equipment.


Lots of companies are trying to break the cable TV delivery model. Apple, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, and other have all been trying various ways to change content delivery. I am sure that at some point the damn will break.



DaveDFW said:


> Just because Tivo has the only retail DVR solution doesn't mean people are obligated to buy into the system. If the public feels Tivo's devices are overpriced for the service delivered the devices won't sell. I'm not going to feel sorry for Tivo if they fail in the marketplace.


TiVo isn't priced much different than the other options out there so it really is more what a person feels a DVR is worth to them. In my mind a DVR provides 2 main functions 1. it allows for time shifting and 2. it allows for commercial skipping. For me I don't think I could stand watching TV without being able to skip the commercials and I have to time shift everything do to my sleep/work schedule so I put a pretty high value on a good DVR. I don't put much value on the streaming stuff as my Internet isn't good enough for most HD content.


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## steve614

morac said:


> The service fee has no basis on anything as it's already been shown by TiVo's own support documents that the Mini is 100% dependent on the host for all data. As such the service fee is an arbitrary amount that TiVo came up with to prevent lost revenue from purchases of Minis. It's like Comcast's $10 a month HD fee to "enable" HD functionality in cable boxes and TiVo's.


The service fee makes sense if the Mini is able to operate independently of the host regarding the online apps (i.e. streaming two different Hulu+ programs at the same time). 
Otherwise, I agree with you.


----------



## sbiller

steve614 said:


> The service fee makes sense if the Mini is able to operate independently of the host regarding the online apps (i.e. streaming two different Hulu+ programs at the same time).
> Otherwise, I agree with you.


By the same argument, only Xbox charges a service fee for access to OTT Apps like Hulu+.

The bottom-line is a decision by the purchaser whether or not $249 is an acceptable price to pay for access to linear live & recorded, on-demand, a limited set of OTT apps and a consistent experience across all televisions in the home.


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## Loach

neo_sapien said:


> Can I get a Premiere 4 and 3 Minis, set the Premiere 4 to share 2 of the tuners, and then will I be able to watch Live TV on any 2 of the 3 Minis?


Not at launch. At launch only 2 Minis per host are supported. From a previous post:



DigitalDawn said:


> Each Premiere 4-tuner model will currently support 2 Mini's. You can have more than one DVR on the system to increase your Mini allotment, and each Mini can access content from any DVR on the network -- even 2 tuner models. However, the Mini's are always paired to the same 4 tuner DVR for live tuner access.
> 
> *2nd Quarter 2013:* Dynamic Tuner Allocation. You'll be able to pair up to 9 Mini's to a single DVR. Each DVR will support up to 4 Mini streams simultaneously.


----------



## Bigg

sbiller said:


> We have no idea what recurring monthly costs TiVo has to service the Mini unless, for example, you have access to the TiVo confidential agreement with Tribune Media Services. I agree, however, that its significantly less than the $5.95/mo they are charging. I also agree that ultimately its a business decision for TiVo that will hopefully lead to increased retail subscribers, lower churn, and a better experience. If the retail sub count continues to degrade quarter-over-quarter, TiVo WILL eventually exit the retail business and all of us will be stuck with cable operator provided solutions (e.g., DIRECTV, DISH, AT&T U-Verse).


Nothing. It uses the Premiere's hardware. And why does it cost TiVo much of anything in the first place to provide TiVo service? Microsoft is doing it at near zero cost. They don't do as good of a job, but they are providing a basic DVR service for nothing.

If TiVo were to exit the market (what, go bankrupt?), there would be a vacuum, and someone would make a DVR. If MCE finally dies, there would also be a vacuum. Heck, I'd love to see TiVo make computer software, but I doubt that's ever going to happen (the one they did wasn't really TiVo, so I'm not counting that). TiVo can't just leave the consumer market and only do MSO deals, unless they get some really big deals, as their small cable operator systems are based off of their retail hardware, and their retail customers are their support base.

The Mini is priced where TiVo thinks people will pay for it, because of the integration with their ecosystem. Yes, they are making well over 150% profit margin on it, but in a capitalist system, good for them. Hopefully they haven't priced themselves out of the market, although considering that they are competing with boxes that are $120/year, every year, I think they're doing pretty well.

It would be nice if they released a Roku app to get remote access to a Premiere, but that's not in their best interest, as there's no way they'd be able to charge the ~$180 they're making in profit off of the Mini.


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## neo_sapien

Loach said:


> Not at launch. At launch only 2 Minis per host are supported. From a previous post:


Ah. Looks like I'll be waiting a few months to get my third Mini then.


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## compnurd

moyekj said:


> Many residences have coax in every room that a TV would normally go. The same can't necessarily be said about cat 5 and that is what gives MoCA a market in the first place.
> 
> Ideally there would be a cheaper version of Mini hardware without MoCA and just ethernet, but I doubt we'll ever see that and it's doubtful it would be that much cheaper to justify a whole new model.


Exactly. The condo i am renting right now only has coax to every room and no way to run ethernet... so moca is perfect. When my home is finished i will have CAT 5 and coax in every room but it is new. It some older houses it is not practical to run ethernet


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## BigJimOutlaw

neo_sapien said:


> Also, regarding TiVo Moca, I have FiOS in my home. My Verizon ONT connects to the router through coax, so I guess that means Moca is enabled already. Will I be able to just connect my Premiere 4 to the coaxial cable, and then connect all the Minis to the coaxial cable? Or will I have to connect an ethernet cable to the Premiere 4, before I can connect a coaxial cable to the Minis?


Yep, moca is most likely set up. Connect the coax to the boxes and it's done.

Running ethernet to the P4 would only be needed if the network is not already setup for moca (no adapter at the router/modem). With the FiOS router, it's already set up.


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## jmpage2

Bigg said:


> It would be nice if they released a Roku app to get remote access to a Premiere, but that's not in their best interest, as there's no way they'd be able to charge the ~$180 they're making in profit off of the Mini.


I doubt you have any proof of what their profit is on the Mini. TiVo has a history of selling the hardware at or below break even in order to sell service.

TiVo is in business to make money for TiVo, not Roku. I imagine that they have already run numbers on how many more tivos they would move if they gave apps away for ATV and Roku and on the whole the idea must be a loser or they would be doing it.


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## neo_sapien

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep, moca is most likely set up. Connect the coax to the boxes and it's done.
> 
> Running ethernet to the P4 would only be needed if the network is not already setup for moca (no adapter at the router/modem). With the FiOS router, it's already set up.


Excellent, thank you.


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## slowbiscuit

sbiller said:


> By the same argument, only Xbox charges a service fee for access to OTT Apps like Hulu+.
> 
> The bottom-line is a decision by the purchaser whether or not $249 is an acceptable price to pay for access to linear live & recorded, on-demand, a limited set of OTT apps and a consistent experience across all televisions in the home.


That service fee gets you all those new apps on Xbox, so it's not valid to compare it to the fee on the Mini which provides nothing new. Microsoft is providing new features and access to all the Live content and gaming, but on Tivo everything has already been paid for with the fee on the host DVR.

Look, we know what the deal is here - the fee is a financing tool to reduce the upfront cost of the Mini for those that want to go that route. Nothing more, nothing less. As you said, all that matters is whether the total cost is acceptable. At $249 it is not for me, but I expect to be able to buy refurb, used, or on sale Minis at $50 or so eventually - $200 is my max price point for these.


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## moedaman

sbiller said:


> By the same argument, only Xbox charges a service fee for access to OTT Apps like Hulu+.


I've seen arguments before saying since Company A screws it's customers over, it's ok for Company B to do so. If Tivo is using the XBLGold model, then the Mini won't be a success, at least at retail. MS has the money to see any resentments through and make it's user base happy. Tivo doesn't. But then again, cabelcos are looking more and more to be Tivo's main user base.


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## sbiller

slowbiscuit said:


> That service fee gets you all those new apps on Xbox, so it's not valid to compare it to the fee on the Mini which provides nothing new. Microsoft is providing new features and access to all the Live content and gaming, but on Tivo everything has already been paid for with the fee on the host DVR.
> 
> Look, we know what the deal is here - the fee is a financing tool to reduce the upfront cost of the Mini for those that want to go that route. Nothing more, nothing less. As you said, all that matters is whether the total cost is acceptable. At $249 it is not for me, but I expect to be able to buy refurb, used, or on sale Minis at $50 or so eventually - $200 is my max price point for these.


I'm guessing the hardware is not subsidized at a $99 retail price point.

As I've stated earlier, TiVo could sell the Mini without a subscription however they want the Mini to add subscribers to their total subscriber count. TiVo-Owned/Stand-Alone (retail) subs is a metric that is tracked quarter over quarter (QoQ). If they sold it without a subscription, there would be cannibalization of current Premiere and Series 2/3 subs that would result in a net loss of subscribers QoQ. By selling it with a subscription, they will start to add subscribers QoQ even with the cannibalization of existing subs. I also think the current product mix (Premiere 4/XL4 + Stream + Mini) is a fairly compelling premium offering that has the potential for a small uplift in retail sales especially in markets where TiVo supports XFINITY On Demand.


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## dhoward

I am a little confused regarding Moca. Presently I have a HD Tivo and am using wired Ethernet, from my router, for its internet connection and coax for the A/V. I have an order out with Amazon for a P4 and hopefully on Mar 6th I can order a Mini. If I want to use Moca wouldn't my hookup to the P4 be exactly the same as the HD. Wired Ethernet and coax for A/V and then another coax to the Mini with no ethernet? It seems like I should have something else but from reading everything here since both the P4 and Mini have built-in Moca that is all I need to do. Is there something else?

Secondly the HDMI port on the HD has been notoriously bad if you read a lot of posts here. I used to use that port until one day it stopped working. I switched to Component and have had no problems. The HDMI connector on the HD has been known to break very easily. I do not know about the Premiere/ I just hope the Mini is constructed better.


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## moedaman

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo is in business to make money for TiVo, not Roku. I imagine that they have already run numbers on how many more tivos they would move if they gave apps away for ATV and Roku and on the whole the idea must be a loser or they would be doing it.


If the guide service wasn't subsidizing hardware, Tivo could sell dvr software for pc's and Macs at reasonable prices and make money that way. More and more people are convinced that Media Center is a dead end since MS doesn't work on it anymore. Someone like Tivo could step in and charge a fee to people with HTPC set-ups and make extra cash that way. Tivo could even sell apps for Apple TV and Android boxes.

Tivo's monopoly on retail dvr's has made them complaisant. I imagine that there are a lot more pc's recording television programming than there are Tivos. But I bet they're not even thinking this way and will allow someone like Silicon Dust or Ceton to fill the gap when the time comes. My Haupagge tuner sticks allow me to program recordings directly from the Titan TV website through their WinTV application.


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## Bigg

jmpage2 said:


> I doubt you have any proof of what their profit is on the Mini. TiVo has a history of selling the hardware at or below break even in order to sell service.
> 
> TiVo is in business to make money for TiVo, not Roku. I imagine that they have already run numbers on how many more tivos they would move if they gave apps away for ATV and Roku and on the whole the idea must be a loser or they would be doing it.


It's basically the same hardware you have in an Apple TV or Roku or WDTV, or any of these other things, which Roku sells for $80 on sale. They swap wireless for MoCA.

If TiVo's not making at least $20 on the $99 price, then they are total morons and wasted a ton of money somewhere.



sbiller said:


> I'm guessing the hardware is not subsidized at a $99 retail price point.
> 
> As I've stated earlier, TiVo could sell the Mini without a subscription however they want the Mini to add subscribers to their total subscriber count. TiVo-Owned/Stand-Alone (retail) subs is a metric that is tracked quarter over quarter (QoQ). If they sold it without a subscription, there would be cannibalization of current Premiere and Series 2/3 subs that would result in a net loss of subscribers QoQ. By selling it with a subscription, they will start to add subscribers QoQ even with the cannibalization of existing subs. I also think the current product mix (Premiere 4/XL4 + Stream + Mini) is a fairly compelling premium offering that has the potential for a small uplift in retail sales especially in markets where TiVo supports XFINITY On Demand.


It's a HUGE potential uplift. TiVo is literally the last DVR solution out there to not have whole-home DVR, and now they are getting it. Cable, DirecTV, U-Verse, and recently DISH all have it. It's kind of sad that it took them this long, since TiVo invented the precursor to WHDVR, MRV.



dhoward said:


> I am a little confused regarding Moca. Presently I have a HD Tivo and am using wired Ethernet, from my router, for its internet connection and coax for the A/V. I have an order out with Amazon for a P4 and hopefully on Mar 6th I can order a Mini. If I want to use Moca wouldn't my hookup to the P4 be exactly the same as the HD. Wired Ethernet and coax for A/V and then another coax to the Mini with no ethernet? It seems like I should have something else but from reading everything here since both the P4 and Mini have built-in Moca that is all I need to do. Is there something else?
> 
> Secondly the HDMI port on the HD has been notoriously bad if you read a lot of posts here. I used to use that port until one day it stopped working. I switched to Component and have had no problems. The HDMI connector on the HD has been known to break very easily. I do not know about the Premiere/ I just hope the Mini is constructed better.


The P4 will bridge the MoCA and Ethernet networks, so the Minis can get online from the P4's Ethernet connection.


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## TZR916

Can the Mini do "pause in one room, pickup play in the other"? In other words start watching a show on the main Tv, press pause, go to the Tv with the mini, press play to continue watching that show. Or do I have to rummage through my shows, play it from the beginning, then FF to the point where I want to keep watching?


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## sbiller

TZR916 said:


> Can the Mini do "pause in one room, pickup play in the other"? In other words start watching a show on the main Tv, press pause, go to the Tv with the mini, press play to continue watching that show. Or do I have to rummage through my shows, play it from the beginning, then FF to the point where I want to keep watching?


The existing Premiere boxes support the use-case you are describing. The Mini should work the same way.

Watch a show on your Premiere 4, Pause it, go to your Mini-equipped TV, pick the program, resume from where you left off.


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## sbiller

Bigg said:


> It's a HUGE potential uplift. TiVo is literally the last DVR solution out there to not have whole-home DVR, and now they are getting it. Cable, DirecTV, U-Verse, and recently DISH all have it. It's kind of sad that it took them this long, since TiVo invented the precursor to WHDVR, MRV.


TiVo has had whole home for their cable operator partners for quite some time with the TiVo Preview (unfortunately not available to retail).

Like the majority of cable operator provided whole home solutions there are a number of compromises. The main one that comes to mind is the inability to pause and rewind live TV on the thin client. The Mini solves that problem although it sounds like there are a few other limitations.


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## dhoward

What cables does the mini come with with? Any HDMI?


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## sbiller

dhoward said:


> What cables does the mini come with with? Any HDMI?


Per the data sheet, one (1) 6' HDMI cable.


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## jmpage2

moedaman said:


> If the guide service wasn't subsidizing hardware, Tivo could sell dvr software for pc's and Macs at reasonable prices and make money that way. More and more people are convinced that Media Center is a dead end since MS doesn't work on it anymore. Someone like Tivo could step in and charge a fee to people with HTPC set-ups and make extra cash that way. Tivo could even sell apps for Apple TV and Android boxes.
> 
> Tivo's monopoly on retail dvr's has made them complaisant. I imagine that there are a lot more pc's recording television programming than there are Tivos. But I bet they're not even thinking this way and will allow someone like Silicon Dust or Ceton to fill the gap when the time comes. My Haupagge tuner sticks allow me to program recordings directly from the Titan TV website through their WinTV application.


I think you seriously overestimate the demand as well as the rewards for TiVo of trying to serve the hobbyist market with "roll your own" DVR software.

TiVo are not idiots, they surely know that they reign supreme in a market that won't exist in its present form in another decade when providers start offering on-demand, a-la carte delivery of their content.


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## dhoward

Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.


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## Arcady

dhoward said:


> Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.


I'm not seeing any XL4 in stock or even for sale on Amazon (from Amazon itself.)


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## dhoward

That is for 3rd party. Amazon direct has the delay.


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## innocentfreak

dhoward said:


> Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.


I doubt it. They only just put in the waiver request which I have yet to see any movement on from the FCC so it wont happen until then. Last time it took 90 days but they put a rush request on it. Without the request it will likely take longer.


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## DaveDFW

dhoward said:


> Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.


A new model announced on the 6th? Remember this is Tivo we're discussing--even if they announced a new model, it would be a miracle to actually ship this model by Christmas 2013.

And who can explain a low-stock situation on four-tuner Premieres when the Mini *requires* a four-tuner Premiere. Are they holding back the inventory to have DVRs available to package as bundles, or did someone really screw up the supply chain?


----------



## rainwater

morac said:


> The service fee has no basis on anything as it's already been shown by TiVo's own support documents that the Mini is 100% dependent on the host for all data.


While that may be true, you can bet TiVo is still paying a license fee to Tribune for the guide data for the Mini itself. And it still requires connecting to the mothership, so TiVo resources will still be used (and cost TiVo money).


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## sbiller

Arcady said:


> I'm not seeing any XL4 in stock or even for sale on Amazon (from Amazon itself.)


I don't recall Amazon ever selling the XL4.


----------



## sbiller

dhoward said:


> Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.


I don't think its possible for them to release a new model without the waiver being approved.


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## innocentfreak

DaveDFW said:


> A new model announced on the 6th? Remember this is Tivo we're discussing--even if they announced a new model, it would be a miracle to actually ship this model by Christmas 2013.
> 
> And who can explain a low-stock situation on four-tuner Premieres when the Mini *requires* a four-tuner Premiere. Are they holding back the inventory to have DVRs available to package as bundles, or did someone really screw up the supply chain?


Amazon has had a lot of supply issues lately. It took them months to get restock on the Synology NAS I was waiting on. Every other store had it in stock without problems though.

Best Buy has stock.


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## SullyND

What TiVo pays TMS is no more pertinent to the cost of service than what they pay their electrical provider. When you pay monthly for TiVo service on a Premiere, you are not paying for guide data. You are paying for the TiVo service, for which guide data is one of the benefits. Likewise, with the Mini, you are paying for the TiVo service. It doesn't matter if TiVo has to pay TMS for the guide data on the Mini, or if they just want to cover their CEO's new golf membership. In either case you have the option of lifetime service on the devices, and the lifetime service price for the Mini seems reasonable to me given it's low hardware cost.


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## crxssi

rainwater said:


> While that may be true, you can bet TiVo is still paying a license fee to Tribune for the guide data for the Mini itself.


We have already covered this. No, there is no sure bet they are paying any such thing. Do they pay it for the Android and iOS apps? Probably not...


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## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> It's basically the same hardware you have in an Apple TV or Roku or WDTV, or any of these other things, which Roku sells for $80 on sale. They swap wireless for MoCA.
> 
> ..................


But it isn't the same hardware. Just the fact the ROku 2 can't decode MPEG2 while the TiVo Mini can means it isn't the same hardware. Although I have no idea about the AppleTV and MPEG2.

But in the end it really doesn't matter. The price is what it is. People will either pay it or they won't. Initially I was thinking about going monthly until the actual pricing was released and the break even period ended up being a short 25 months. SO I will end up getting lifetime service on the Mini. And I'll still get a Roku3 box and I'll still have my Roku 2 boxes as well as other media players. No box out there excels at everything so I expect to always need multiple boxes to get the best experience from different applications.


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## Davisadm

dhoward said:


> Is there any chance that Tivo is also going to announce a new model on the 6th. Several sites are out of stock on the P4 including Amazon. They are showing a 1-3 week before shipping. Other sites are out of the XL4.





Arcady said:


> I'm not seeing any XL4 in stock or even for sale on Amazon (from Amazon itself.)


Huh??
There are plenty of Premiere 4s and Premiere XL4s available on Amazon.


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## moyekj

rainwater said:


> While that may be true, you can bet TiVo is still paying a license fee to Tribune for the guide data for the Mini itself. And it still requires connecting to the mothership, so TiVo resources will still be used (and cost TiVo money).


 While that is true, same can be said about iOS and Android apps which are given away for free - they too have to contact the mothership for many tasks. The best explanation I've heard for a service fee so far is what morac opined about being a way to make up lost subscription revenue from cannibalizing potential DVR sales as a result of having a Mini thin client. MSOs charge a monthly service fee for their thin clients and there is no way to pay a 1 time fixed fee for those solutions, so TiVo by offering a 1 time fee option makes it a more compelling solution IMO.


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## Arcady

Davisadm said:


> Huh??
> There are plenty of Premiere 4s and Premiere XL4s available on Amazon.


There is a 1-3 week delay for the P4 and they have no XL4. We're not including third-party sellers.


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## Dan203

TiVo is not competing with Roku or Apple TV. They are competing with MSO DVRs. And their pricing model has always been structured to compete with MSO DVR pricing. If you compare the costs of a TiVo to the DVR offered by your MSO, including outlet fees, CableCARD fees, etc..., TiVo is usually very similar. And if you go with lifetime service they're usually cheaper long term because lifetime retains a lot of it's original value.

If you were expecting the Mini to be priced similar to a Roku or Apple TV then you were naive. No matter how similar the hardware is they all have very different business models.

Like other's have said TiVo is charging what they feel they need to to make money. If you think it's too much then don't buy. You have other options. No one is twisting your arm.


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## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is not competing with Roku or Apple TV.


It's not relevant who Tivo thinks its competitors are. To a consumer, those other devices perform substantially the same functions as a Mini at a substantially lower cost.



Dan203 said:


> If you were expecting the Mini to be priced similar to a Roku or Apple TV then you were naive.


I expected Tivo to price the Mini uncompetitively and I was correct. However, no one has convinced me that the pricing is justified, other than stating that is the amount Tivo feels is needed to perpetuate their leisurely development cycles, poor customer support, famously unresolved issues, and tone-deaf approach to consumer electronics.



Dan203 said:


> Like other's have said TiVo is charging what they feel they need to to make money. If you think it's too much then don't buy. You have other options. No one is twisting your arm.


This kind of take-it-or-leave-it attitude is strange considering the hand-to-mouth existence that Tivo seems to display year after year.


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## tvn

Are we thinking we will be able to walk into Best Buy on Wednesday and walk out with two of these things? Still seems to be a mystery why all of this information is under wraps.


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## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> It's not relevant who Tivo thinks its competitors are. To a consumer, those other devices perform substantially the same functions as a Mini at a substantially lower cost.


So are you a Politician? They seem to believe if they say something is true enough it will be even if it isn't. You can say the Mini is competing with a Roku and that the Roku has the same function as a Mini until he** freezes over and it will still not be true.



DaveDFW said:


> I expected Tivo to price the Mini uncompetitively and I was correct. However, no one has convinced me that the pricing is justified, other than stating that is the amount Tivo feels is needed to perpetuate their leisurely development cycles, poor customer support, famously unresolved issues, and tone-deaf approach to consumer electronics.


Well I think Apple products are over priced and uncompetitive and guess what no one cares, including Apple and I don't waist my time going to Apple user forums complaining about it, I just don't buy apple products.



DaveDFW said:


> This kind of take-it-or-leave-it attitude is strange considering the hand-to-mouth existence that Tivo seems to display year after year.


Well most of us (all?) do not work for TiVo and are not here to sell TiVos. This is a user supported forum which means most of us have decided to own TiVos and are interested in new TiVo products -why do you think we want to continuously hear about why they are not worth buying because someone doesn't think they are cheap enough?


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## DaveDFW

atmuscarella said:


> So are you a Politician? They seem to believe if they say something is true enough it will be even if it isn't. You can say the Mini is competing with a Roku and that the Roku has the same function as a Mini until he** freezes over and it will still not be true.


I keep saying it because it is true. All of the above devices are capable of providing the function of "video delivered to a connected display device."

It seems the die-hard Tivo fans are insisting that because those other devices aren't operated with a peanut remote and don't require another $500 Tivo purchase to function that the competitors' devices can't compete.

So Tivo will sell a few Minis to fans who would have bought Tivo DVR after Tivo DVR anyway. I don't see anything compelling to lure in new customers.


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## sbiller

I expect TiVo to sell about 16,000 Mini's in their current Q1 (ending April 31, 2013). Like the Stream which they indicated outsold their internal projections, I expect the Mini to do very well. There is a lot of pent up demand.


----------



## sbiller

DaveDFW said:


> I keep saying it because it is true. All of the above devices are capable of providing the function of "video delivered to a connected display device."
> 
> It seems the die-hard Tivo fans are insisting that because those other devices aren't operated with a peanut remote and don't require another $500 Tivo purchase to function that the competitors' devices can't compete.
> 
> So Tivo will sell a few Minis to fans who would have bought Tivo DVR after Tivo DVR anyway. I don't see anything compelling to lure in new customers.


They are selling 10,000 DVRs per month. The Mini will attract additional new customers. TiVo is a premium product. Could they lower the price to $69 + a lower subscription cost to juice volume? Of course they could. Like anything else, they've priced it at launch to lure early adopters. They have some room (i.e., price slack) to offer bundling deals to attract new customers.


----------



## moedaman

jmpage2 said:


> I think you seriously overestimate the demand as well as the rewards for TiVo of trying to serve the hobbyist market with "roll your own" DVR software.


Selling hardware hasn't given many rewards for this company though. They haven't made a lot of money all these years selling subsidized equipment. A different tactic might have allowed them to be more profitable. As for calling htpc a "hobbyist market", what does that make Tivo? A niche of a niche?


> TiVo are not idiots, they surely know that they reign supreme in a market that won't exist in its present form in another decade when providers start offering on-demand, a-la carte delivery of their content.


Tivo has been very slow to adapt to changes. If Tivo decides to get into iptv, then they're doomed. Companies like MS, Roku, Apple, etc. are far ahead of them. The only branching out they've done is to become the equipment supplier they originally wanted to be the alternative to.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

DaveDFW said:


> I keep saying it because it is true. All of the above devices are capable of providing the function of "video delivered to a connected display device."


I think the Mini is a little overpriced too, but it's still not a direct comparison. Anything can be true if you're vague enough. The sky is indisputably "a color."

Of course the Roku "delivers video". That doesn't mean it delivers the video we want, when we want. It definitely doesn't deliver my recordings within a couple hours of it airing, which is how I generally use the Tivo. I have to wait days/weeks/months/seasonally/annually later, if it's even provided at all. With multiple additional subscription or a la carte fees to boot.


----------



## ShoutingMan

tvn said:


> Are we thinking we will be able to walk into Best Buy on Wednesday and walk out with two of these things? Still seems to be a mystery why all of this information is under wraps.


What's the rumor for retail release of the mini? I've got a pair of TivoHD on monthly service I'd like to update, but there's nothing I want to commit to. TiVo Premiere looks fine, but I don't want to make a big $$ upgrade and not have a whole house DVR. (I've been thinking about a HTPC for a year, but it has its own serious issues)

A 4 tuner Premiere and a mini, with adaptive tuner, is very tempting. A 6 tuner Premiere and a mini is probably day-of-release purchase.


----------



## Dan203

DaveDFW said:


> It's not relevant who Tivo thinks its competitors are. To a consumer, those other devices perform substantially the same functions as a Mini at a substantially lower cost.


They do not provide "substantially the same functions". The Mini is a specialty device specifically designed to extend TiVo viewing throughout your home via your local network. The Roku and Apple TV are both devices designed specifically to display internet video sources on a TV. The ONLY overlap is that they all have three Netflix. And we're not even 100% sure the Mini will even have Netflix.

Just because both display video on a TV does not mean they are the same thing. The Mini has the unique ability to stream programs from your DVR anywhere in your home. If you don't think that unique ability is worth $150 then that's fine, but buying a Roku or Apple TV isn't going to provide you with that functionality. In fact the only other devices on the market that offer similar functionality are rented by cable and DSS providers for a monthly fee with no option to buy your own equipment or a "lifetime" subscription.

I'm not saying I'm thrilled with how they priced it, but your logic of comparing it to cheaper devices that don't even have the same functionality is flawed. I mean if the only criteria for making them similar is the fact that they both display video on a TV then they should all be $30, because I can buy a cheap BluRay player at Wal-Mart for $30 that can display video on my TV too. In fact I might even be able to get one that supports Netflix.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Of course the Roku "delivers video". That doesn't mean it delivers the video we want, when we want. It certainly doesn't deliver anybody's specific _DVR recordings._ The services on those devices don't deliver any of the programming I watch within a few hours of it airing -- which is how I generally watch recorded TV. Much of it isn't delivered for days/weeks/months/seasonally later, if ever... With multiple additional subscription fees or a la carte fees to boot.


Even for the video we want, I find the TiVo interface a bit more intuitive for finding and discovering content than the Roku. If I search for 'House of Cards' on my Apple TV, it doesn't even show up. Granted Roku and Apple could possibly catch up for unifying stove-piped content stuck in apps, but TiVo is doing pretty well on this front.


























Hopefully the Mini will support Netflix sometime after launch or this comparison falls apart. Unifying a myriad of unique sources is the requirement for TiVo to offer a differentiated service.


----------



## Dan203

moedaman said:


> As for calling htpc a "hobbyist market", what does that make Tivo? A niche of a niche?


TiVo is the everyman's HTPC. No matter how you obtain it an HTPC requires effort to setup and maintain. TiVo provides essentially the same functionality in a simpler, set and forget, package. They compromise some functionality and flexibility for that ease of use, but a lot of people are willing to sacrifice features for simplicity.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> I expect TiVo to sell about 16,000 Mini's in their current Q1 (ending April 31, 2013).


But what percent of the first wave of purchasers will be folks retiring Premieres? As I did, which was generating TiVo $15/mo... I suspect the Mini's impact in the market and in regards to TiVo revenue may not be clear for many months.


----------



## Dan203

davezatz said:


> But what percent of the first wave of purchasers will be folks retiring Premieres? As I did, which was generating TiVo $15/mo... I suspect the Mini's impact in the market and in regards to TiVo revenue may not be clear for many months.


I agree. And I think one of the reasons they chose to charge a service fee is because they knew the Mini would be cannibalizing part of their primary DVR market.

In fact I think not supporting the 2 tuner units at launch might be more of a strategy to sell additional 4 tuner units, rather then a strict technical issue.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> But what percent of the first wave of purchasers will be folks retiring Premieres? As I did, which was generating TiVo $15/mo... I suspect the Mini's impact in the market and in regards to TiVo revenue may not be clear for many months.


Good question. I suspect those with lifetime Premieres will end up selling them on eBay so some percentage of those would not be cannibalized. My spreadsheet snapshot really assumed new users only since I made the assumption that cannibalization of existing Premiere users might be a wash. I do think there are users with a Premiere 4 + Premiere or Premiere 4 + TiVo HD that will end up purchasing a Mini for a 3rd TV while keeping their other units in service.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> In fact I think not supporting the 2 tuner units at launch might be more of a strategy to sell additional 4 tuner units, rather then a strict technical issue.


Agreed. Its possible that they will never support 2-tuner units. It probably depends on the wishes of their current MSO partners (Suddenlink, RCN, Grande, Mediacom, Midcontinent, GCI, Cable One, Evolutional Digital). These partners drive the technology roadmap more than retail.


----------



## morac

sbiller said:


> Good question. I suspect those with lifetime Premieres will end up selling them on eBay so some percentage of those would not be cannibalized. My spreadsheet snapshot really assumed new users only since I made the assumption that cannibalization of existing Premiere users might be a wash. I do think there are users with a Premiere 4 + Premiere or Premiere 4 + TiVo HD that will end up purchasing a Mini for a 3rd TV while keeping their other units in service.


If someone sells a lifetime Premiere on eBay how does that benefit TiVo?


----------



## jmpage2

morac said:


> If someone sells a lifetime Premiere on eBay how does that benefit TiVo?


They are buying into the TiVo ecosystem which is fairly sticky, this benefits TiVo to some degree.


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> If someone sells a lifetime Premiere on eBay how does that benefit TiVo?


They don't lose the sub from a subscriber count perspective (i.e., it doesn't impact the monthly churn rate).



> Included in our TiVo-Owned Churn Rate per month are those product lifetime subscriptions that have both reached the end of the revenue recognition period [66 months] and whose DVRs have not contacted the TiVo service within the prior six months. Conversely, we do not count as churn product lifetime subscriptions that have not reached the end of the revenue recognition period, regardless of whether such subscriptions continue to contact the TiVo service.


So if someone essentially stops paying a subscription fee on a monthly box, than they churn immediately the following month. For lifetime subs who are still within 66 months of purchase, they churn in month 72. For lifetime subs who continue to contact the service even after 66 months they essentially remain as counted subs with zero revenue that flows to the bottom-line.


----------



## morac

sbiller said:


> So if someone essentially stops paying a subscription fee on a monthly box, than they churn immediately the following month. For lifetime subs who are still within 66 months of purchase, they churn in month 72. For lifetime subs who continue to contact the service even after 66 months they essentially remain as counted subs with zero revenue that flows to the bottom-line.


After 66 months wouldn't lifetime units basically become a cost to TiVo since it generates no income? Unless TiVo is offsetting the costs with ads, in which case the service fee would be pure revenue. Otherwise counting a subscriber that costs TiVo money a "subscriber" would seem to be lying to investors.


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> After 66 months wouldn't lifetime units basically become a cost to TiVo since it generates no income? Unless TiVo is offsetting the costs with ads, in which case the service fee would be pure revenue. Otherwise counting a subscriber that costs TiVo money a "subscriber" would seem to be lying to investors.


They fully disclose the number of TiVo-Owned subscriptions that have been fully amortized -- 194,000 out of 1,029,000 as of Jan 31, 2013. In addition, 53% of TiVo-Owned subscriptions are on a monthly subscription plan.

There is some up-sell on the lifetime subs that have reached the end of their revenue recognition period including advertisements, audience research & measurement, TiVo's portion of fees for VOD (Amazon Instant, Hulu Plus, Spotify), etc. There is probably a greater opportunity for one of these users to upgrade to a newer box as new services and devices are released.


----------



## timon0x31

Well to me it seems that TiVo engineers have screwed up yet again with the Mini. Who is guiding these guys?

Design flaw 1. Can't use it with a two tuner Premiere even though you can connect to a Premiere4 without using a tuner at all. It seems you can connect to other Premiere with two tuners once you have a P4 on the network so why not without a P4. Shame shame.

Design flaw 2. No IR sensor on the top or slots on the bottom so you could hang the Mini on the wall under your TV. The Mini begs to be used this way.

Design flaw 3. A really stupid shape.


----------



## crxssi

sbiller said:


> I expect TiVo to sell about 16,000 Mini's in their current Q1 (ending April 31, 2013). Like the Stream which they indicated outsold their internal projections, I expect the Mini to do very well. There is a lot of pent up demand.


To me...

Stream: No Android support. Fail
Mini: No 2 tuner Premiere support. Fail
Premiere 4: No OTA support & no cpu ugprade. Fail

They COULD have sold more and there is still an unaddressed pent-up demand. I have been continuously disappointed with their product offerings, yet still hoping...


----------



## timon0x31

+1 other than Android support which I don't care about.



crxssi said:


> To me...
> 
> Stream: No Android support. Fail
> Mini: No 2 tuner Premiere support. Fail
> Premiere 4: No OTA support & no cpu ugprade. Fail
> 
> They COULD have sold more and there is still an unaddressed pent-up demand. I have been continuously disappointed with their product offerings, yet still hoping...


----------



## SullyND

timon0x31 said:


> Design flaw 2. No IR sensor on the top or slots on the bottom so you could hang the Mini on the wall under your TV. The Mini begs to be used this way.


How is this a design flaw? The thing was designed with mounting holes on the back to be used in such a way, and they are providing (or making available as an accessory?) a wired IR receiver that you could mount remotely.


----------



## aaronwt

Didn't someone mention that an IR extender dongle would be available? That would cover putting the Mini behind a TV. Although I plan on using a TiVo Slide Remote with mine.


----------



## innocentfreak

timon0x31 said:


> Design flaw 2. No IR sensor on the top or slots on the bottom so you could hang the Mini on the wall under your TV. The Mini begs to be used this way.


I am guessing you didn't bother to read this?



DigitalDawn said:


> I just finished the online dealer meeting For the TiVo Mini. I was told I could repeat all the info I learned, so here goes.
> 
> *Miscellaneous:*
> The Mini has mounting holes on the back for wall mounting. If the Mini is mounted behind a TV, there will be an IR extender available that connects to the Mini's USB port.
> 
> That's all I have right now. We'll find out more next week at launch.





crxssi said:


> To me...
> 
> Stream: No Android support. Fail
> Mini: No 2 tuner Premiere support. Fail
> Premiere 4: No OTA support & no cpu ugprade. Fail
> 
> They COULD have sold more and there is still an unaddressed pent-up demand. I have been continuously disappointed with their product offerings, yet still hoping...


I believe it was stated that they had to wait for 4.2 to support the necessary DRM Cable Labs requires.

OTA in the Premiere 4 has already been beaten to death. The combination of the OTA tuner tech not being up to date and the assist from the MSOs not wanting OTA leads to a box that doesn't have OTA. Since the MSOs will probably switch to the 6 tuner model, they will probably include it in the 4 tuner replacement. It would also give whatever company they use time to potentially develop a cheaper multituner option for OTA.


----------



## jrtroo

Shape? Who cares? I would just hang this on the back of the TV, well out of sight, and use my slide.


----------



## aaronwt

jrtroo said:


> Shape? Who cares? I would just hang this on the back of the TV, well out of sight, and use my slide.


I will use my Slide too but my Mini will not be out of sight. But the Slide is not made anymore and they have not announced an RF replacement yet.


----------



## timon0x31

innocentfreak said:


> I am guessing you didn't bother to read this


Well I guess I missed that after reading through 48 pages.


----------



## aaronwt

Well it's not like it's sixty pages.


----------



## dianebrat

Dan203 said:


> TiVo is the everyman's HTPC. No matter how you obtain it an HTPC requires effort to setup and maintain. TiVo provides essentially the same functionality in a simpler, set and forget, package. They compromise some functionality and flexibility for that ease of use, but a lot of people are willing to sacrifice features for simplicity.


Agreed, Tivo has done very well making what at first glance appears to be an HTPC into a very reliable appliance, it's a tough job and they've done well in my mind with a very solid foundation. I see it all the time in the Enterprise market, we prefer appliances in remote sites to servers for their uptime and reliability.


----------



## innocentfreak

timon0x31 said:


> Well I guess I missed that after reading through 48 pages.


I guess it is just too much to expect someone to do some research before they ***** these days.


----------



## Dan203

crxssi said:


> To me...
> 
> Stream: No Android support. Fail
> Mini: No 2 tuner Premiere support. Fail
> Premiere 4: No OTA support & no cpu ugprade. Fail
> 
> They COULD have sold more and there is still an unaddressed pent-up demand. I have been continuously disappointed with their product offerings, yet still hoping...


#1 Is coming

#2 Probably possible, but explaining no live TV support to 2 tuner users could be difficult. Plus this allows them to boost sales for the 4 tuner units after the Mini launches.

#3 Not possible with the current platform. However TiVo did recently file a waiver request with the FFC for new units without analog support. They included a line that mentioned at least one of the units would have OTA support. My guess is that the next TiVo will be either 6 tuners for cable or a 3/3 configuration for cable and OTA. I also think they will upgrade the CPU to the matching chip being used in the Mini. However I don't expect this to hit until late this year.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> But it isn't the same hardware. Just the fact the ROku 2 can't decode MPEG2 while the TiVo Mini can means it isn't the same hardware. Although I have no idea about the AppleTV and MPEG2.


Of course Roku could do MPEG-2 if they enabled it in software. MPEG-4 is a more stringent set of hardware requirements than MPEG-2, so anything that can do MPEG-4 is backwards compatible with MPEG-2 and MPEG-1. It may not have MPEG-2 in the software at all because of licensing fees. Certainly if they paid the licensing fee, they could push a software update to do it.



sbiller said:


> Hopefully the Mini will support Netflix sometime after launch or this comparison falls apart. Unifying a myriad of unique sources is the requirement for TiVo to offer a differentiated service.


Even a minimal TV setup will have 2+ devices that support Netflix. I think I have 5 right now, and a TiVo will be #6. When I get Netflix, I'm not even sure what device I should use it on. XBOX is out, as it requires another subscription, Wii is out, as it's not HD, and the TV is out, as I don't have an audio backfeed set up for it, but that still leaves the Roku, ATV, and Blu-Ray player.



sbiller said:


> Agreed. Its possible that they will never support 2-tuner units. It probably depends on the wishes of their current MSO partners (Suddenlink, RCN, Grande, Mediacom, Midcontinent, GCI, Cable One, Evolutional Digital). These partners drive the technology roadmap more than retail.


How many subs are they getting off a bunch of tiny cable companies? If they were selling to Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, Verizon, Charter, or Cablevision, I'd believe cable was driving them, but those guys? I don't believe it.


----------



## innocentfreak

Bigg said:


> How many subs are they getting off a bunch of tiny cable companies? If they were selling to Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, Verizon, Charter, or Cablevision, I'd believe cable was driving them, but those guys? I don't believe it.


It isn't just subs though. In some cases which I believe is true for the Elite/Q and the Preview they are also funding development.


----------



## Bigg

innocentfreak said:


> It isn't just subs though. In some cases which I believe is true for the Elite/Q and the Preview they are also funding development.


It can't be that much for little tiny cable companies like that. Maybe RCN is, since they are an overbuilding who is going head-to-head with Comcast and wants a differentiator, but other than that, it can't be much.


----------



## sbiller

Bigg said:


> It can't be that much for little tiny cable companies like that. Maybe RCN is, since they are an overbuilding who is going head-to-head with Comcast and wants a differentiator, but other than that, it can't be much.


TiVo's current Tier 2 cable operator deals will account for approximately *1.2 million households* and *3 million subscribers* by January 2015. They will conservatively contribute *$50 million of high-margin revenue* with virtually zero subscriber acquisition costs. Each one of these deals can be fielded in approximately 4 to 6 months and costs TiVo less than $1 million to deploy. Sometimes an MSO will pay TiVo up-front development costs but normally these deals are funded by TiVo and TiVo recoups the investment through the recurring service revenue.


----------



## timon0x31

innocentfreak said:


> I guess it is just too much to expect someone to do some research before they ***** these days.


And then some like to be rude.


----------



## crxssi

innocentfreak said:


> I believe it was stated that they had to wait for 4.2 to support the necessary DRM Cable Labs requires.


Well, my Nexus 10 has been on 4.2 for several weeks 



> OTA in the Premiere 4 has already been beaten to death.


Yep, but still a valid concern. Good info, though


----------



## crxssi

aaronwt said:


> I will use my Slide too but my Mini will not be out of sight. But the Slide is not made anymore and they have not announced an RF replacement yet.


Yep, another "winner" strategy. Let's discontinue the great Slide product and yet have nothing to replace it yet. DUH.


----------



## crxssi

Bigg said:


> Of course Roku could do MPEG-2 if they enabled it in software.


Um. No. Absolutely not.

I guarantee the Roku's CPU is nowhere NEAR fast enough to decode HD MPEG2 in software. If the support is not in the GPU chipset for hardware decoding, it ain't gonna happen. And almost none of the chipsets support MPEG2, because it is considered obsolete (and has been for a long time).


----------



## jfh3

sbiller said:


> I expect TiVo to sell about 16,000 Mini's in their current Q1 (ending April 31, 2013). Like the Stream which they indicated outsold their internal projections, I expect the Mini to do very well. There is a lot of pent up demand.


Sam, what is your estimate of canibilization/churn as a result of the Mini? How many Premiere subs will be lost due to new Mini subs?

I plan to buy two Mini's with lifetime, but will sell one Base Premiere with Lifetime. I'm sure there are some that were going to buy an additional Premiere or Elite, but will now buy a Mini instead.

I'm not sure I see how the Mini helps drive more subs; it seems the vast majority of Mini sales will simply reduce the number of Premieres.


----------



## herbman

Here is my problem. I have a 2 tuner premiere. I'm about to setup a second TV in my kitchen. I'd like to put a Mini on it, however I think at this point in early 2013, buying a new s4/premiere-level device, lifetime or monthly, seems like a bad idea. I think the lack of 2-tuner support is incredibly short sighted, as it is explicitly causing a loss of sale in my case. I've even thought about just getting another 2-tuner premiere for this TV, but I don't want to have another cablecard and tuning adapter to deal with on twc.

Somewhat annoyed. I'll probably jump on the first series 5/mini deal that comes out.


----------



## sbiller

jfh3 said:


> I must have missed something - what is the waiver request for? To sell a box that supports only digital channels?


Details here -> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/tivo-sets-the-stage-for-next-gen-digital-dvr/



> This petition requests an extension of that waiver to several new all-digital cable only devices and a slight extension of that waiver to cover devices that permit reception of digital broadcast (DTV) signals. One model of TiVo s new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability; this model, therefore, requires waiver of both the DCR Rules and Section 15.117(b)s dual analog/digital tuner requirement.


----------



## jfh3

sbiller said:


> Details here -> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/tivo-sets-the-stage-for-next-gen-digital-dvr/


Thanks, especially for the link. (And for anyone looking, I had just deleted the post that Sam quotes because Dan203 had answered it in a previous post).


----------



## sbiller

jfh3 said:


> Sam, what is your estimate of canibilization/churn as a result of the Mini? How many Premiere subs will be lost due to new Mini subs?
> 
> I plan to buy two Mini's with lifetime, but will sell one Base Premiere with Lifetime. I'm sure there are some that were going to buy an additional Premiere or Elite, but will now buy a Mini instead.
> 
> I'm not sure I see how the Mini helps drive more subs; it seems the vast majority of Mini sales will simply reduce the number of Premieres.


TiVo doesn't publish metrics on multi-box households but based on cost factors and the lack of a whole home solution I expect that the majority of TiVo households have one TiVo box. I know a number of people that have one TiVo box with their other TVs being lit-up by cable operator provided set tops. I believe the Mini will drive newer subs to a 4-tuner or future 6-tuner DVR model which has higher margins for TiVo. The Mini is probably not subsidized at $99 so it will have a very good ROI as well. I expect TiVo will offer bundles that incentivize new customers to buy a Premiere 4 + TiVo Stream + 1 or 2 Mini's. Every customer that buys into the full bundle (Premiere-4/XL4 + 2 Minis) will add 3 subscribers to the TiVo-Owned count. I do expect that we will see churn fluctuate a little higher than the current 1.5% (Q4) but it will stay well under 2%.


----------



## jfh3

herbman said:


> Here is my problem. I have a 2 tuner premiere. I'm about to setup a second TV in my kitchen. I'd like to put a Mini on it, however I think at this point in early 2013, buying a new s4/premiere-level device, lifetime or monthly, seems like a bad idea. I think the lack of 2-tuner support is incredibly short sighted, as it is explicitly causing a loss of sale in my case. I've even thought about just getting another 2-tuner premiere for this TV, but I don't want to have another cablecard and tuning adapter to deal with on twc.
> 
> Somewhat annoyed. I'll probably jump on the first series 5/mini deal that comes out.


Unless someone is new to TiVo, I wouldn't suggest buying any Premiere or Premiere 4 now, when most signs point to a platform refresh or a "Series 5" later this year.

However, I suspect a Mini will eventually allow the use of an original Premiere as host, as well as any potential host released in the future.

For me, I'd love a 6 tuner host where I could use at least 2 tuners for OTA and two or three Minis. I'd keep one of my Elites and sell the other one and the two Elites.


----------



## JohnnyO

sbiller said:


> I know a number of people that have one TiVo box with their other TVs being lit-up by cable operator provided set tops.


This is an interesting data point. I must be an outlier in that I want a common user interface on all my DVRs. [Of course, maybe you are saying that the non-TiVo devices are "just" cable boxes and not DVRs - I'm drunk too much TiVo DVR KoolAid to even think about owning a TV without a DVR...] I've standardized on the Harmony One remote for the same reason.


----------



## lessd

Arcady said:


> There is a 1-3 week delay for the P4 and they have no XL4. We're not including third-party sellers.


*That is correct about Amazon*

_Estimated delivery: Mar. 20, 2013 - Mar. 27, 2013

TiVo TCD750500 Premiere 4 Digital Video Recorder (Black) 
TiVo TCD750500 Premiere 4 Digital Video Recorder (Black)

$221.99

Quantity: 1 Change

Usually ships within 1 to 3 weeks.

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC_


----------



## innocentfreak

crxssi said:


> Well, my Nexus 10 has been on 4.2 for several weeks
> 
> Yep, but still a valid concern. Good info, though


I believe TiVoDesign replied to someone that an Android update would be out in a few weeks to address an issue with Jelly Bean. I don't know if it will bring Stream support or not though. I would guess no, but it sounds like from that they might be firing up the Android development.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Of course Roku could do MPEG-2 if they enabled it in software. MPEG-4 is a more stringent set of hardware requirements than MPEG-2, so anything that can do MPEG-4 is backwards compatible with MPEG-2 and MPEG-1. It may not have MPEG-2 in the software at all because of licensing fees. Certainly if they paid the licensing fee, they could push a software update to do it.


That's not true. Even the iPad 4 can not decode 1080 MPEG-2 in software and it has one of the fastest ARM processors in existence. You're right that MPEG-4 is more complicated then MPEG-2, but they are completely different standard and are not backwards compatible. These devices have a special chip designed specifically to decode MPEG-4 video. They do not have chips for decoding MPG-2, nor the CPU power to do it in software. The only way a Roku could ever act like a Mini is if you also had a Stream to transcode to H.264 on the fly. If it were just a licensing thing then they would enable it because the MPEG-LA license for MPEG-2 decoding is less then a $1 per seat.


----------



## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> That's not true. Even the iPad 4 can not decode 1080 MPEG-2 in software and it has one of the fastest ARM processors in existence. You're right that MPEG-4 is more complicated then MPEG-2, but they are completely different standard and are not backwards compatible. These devices have a special chip designed specifically to decode MPEG-4 video. They do not have chips for decoding MPG-2, nor the CPU power to do it in software. The only way a Roku could ever act like a Mini is if you also had a Stream to transcode to H.264 on the fly. If it were just a licensing thing then they would enable it because the MPEG-LA license for MPEG-2 decoding is less then a $1 per seat.


The iPad 4 absolutely has enough horse power to decode MPEG2 at 1080P in software, it just would suck for battery consumption. Also, strictly speaking it probably does have hardware for MPEG2 decoding since they use an Imgtec VXD decoder block on the SoC, and removing the MPEG2 hardware from that is more effort than it is worth... Generally it is simply not exposed up through the kernel or the firmware for the VXD's core processor is omitted since they didn't pay the patent license fees for MPEG2. Something like a Roku does not have the power restrictions so software decoding would be viable, and almost any SoC video decoder block that can do MPEG4 can do MPEG2 as well.


----------



## crxssi

lgerbarg said:


> The iPad 4 absolutely has enough horse power to decode MPEG2 at 1080P in software, it just would suck for battery consumption. Also, strictly speaking it probably does have hardware for MPEG2 decoding since they use an Imgtec VXD decoder block on the SoC, and removing the MPEG2 hardware from that is more effort than it is worth... Generally it is simply not exposed up through the kernel or the firmware for the VXD's core processor is omitted since they didn't pay the patent license fees for MPEG2. Something like a Roku does not have the power restrictions so software decoding would be viable, and almost any SoC video decoder block that can do MPEG4 can do MPEG2 as well.


Entirely plausible (since the modern ARM's are so much faster than even a few years ago), but not sure I believe it (1080P in software with no hardware decoding), though. Even my 3.6Ghz AMD struggles with 1080P without assistance. It is true that some deblocking routines are generic enough to work on either H264 or MPEG2, but it would be only a few parts of many.


----------



## Mike-Wolf

jfh3 said:


> Unless someone is new to TiVo, I wouldn't suggest buying any Premiere or Premiere 4 now, when most signs point to a platform refresh or a "Series 5" later this year.
> 
> However, I suspect a Mini will eventually allow the use of an original Premiere as host, as well as any potential host released in the future.
> 
> For me, I'd love a 6 tuner host where I could use at least 2 tuners for OTA and two or three Minis. I'd keep one of my Elites and sell the other one and the two Elites.


I'm pretty sure the OTA feature is dead and TiVo has no plans on revisiting it since it hasn't been seen in the newer models probably due to the lack of internal space in favor of the added tuners. I've been concerned about TiVo abandoning the TiVo 4 users in favor of the TiVo 5 in not rolling out software updates anymore but was told by several executives that this wouldn't be the case, for whatever that's worth. I know that at least with Cisco they have two types of CableCARDs out, one that is more common supporting 6 programs at once and the newer one supporting 8 streams. The problem is not with how many tuners TiVo puts in their equipment but the service providers having the equipment, hardware, and knowledge to support it. I just hope that if the TiVo 5 does come out it's backwards compatible with streaming and transferring between TiVo's like the TiVo 4 does currently.


----------



## jamesjones_det

DaveDFW said:


> I keep saying it because it is true. All of the above devices are capable of providing the function of "video delivered to a connected display device."
> 
> It seems the die-hard Tivo fans are insisting that because those other devices aren't operated with a peanut remote and don't require another $500 Tivo purchase to function that the competitors' devices can't compete.
> 
> So Tivo will sell a few Minis to fans who would have bought Tivo DVR after Tivo DVR anyway. I don't see anything compelling to lure in new customers.


So you are telling me that an Apple TV and a Roku can decode Cable signals? That's news to me, last I checked I couldn't watch cable on my Apple TV.

A mini is not a direct competitor to an Apple TV or Roku. They have similarities but that's as far as it goes.


----------



## DaveDFW

jamesjones_det said:


> So you are telling me that an Apple TV and a Roku can decode Cable signals? That's news to me, last I checked I couldn't watch cable on my Apple TV.
> 
> A mini is not a direct competitor to an Apple TV or Roku. The have similarities but that's as far as it goes.


If you frame your requirements so rigidly that you specifically exclude those other devices, then, yes, a Mini is your only solution. But that's what I meant when I wrote that objections to the other devices seem to be that those devices don't provide a peanut remote.

I'm being somewhat facetious with that argument--I don't really believe that the peanut remote is driving consumer's buying decisions, I'm saying that these consumers are unnecessarily limiting their options by only taking a narrow view of their available entertainment options.

No, those other devices won't interface with cable broadcasts or communicate with your existing investment in Tivo infrastructure because they're not intended to do those functions.

If a consumer is only interested in viewing commercial video programming, those other devices are capable of receiving and displaying that programming, albeit using different methods. And those devices are significantly cheaper than the Mini.


----------



## socrplyr

Mike-Wolf said:


> I'm pretty sure the OTA feature is dead and TiVo has no plans on revisiting it since it hasn't been seen in the newer models probably due to the lack of internal space in favor of the added tuners. I've been concerned about TiVo abandoning the TiVo 4 users in favor of the TiVo 5 in not rolling out software updates anymore but was told by several executives that this wouldn't be the case, for whatever that's worth. I know that at least with Cisco they have two types of CableCARDs out, one that is more common supporting 6 programs at once and the newer one supporting 8 streams. The problem is not with how many tuners TiVo puts in their equipment but the service providers having the equipment, hardware, and knowledge to support it. I just hope that if the TiVo 5 does come out it's backwards compatible with streaming and transferring between TiVo's like the TiVo 4 does currently.


OTA is most likely not dead. Check Tivo's latest filings. They are requesting exemptions from Analog tuners for OTA. That suggests to me that they are probably staying in that game. At some point Tivo will stop updating the S4 platform. That is a given. It will most likely be when the S5 comes out or shortly thereafter.


----------



## jamesjones_det

DaveDFW said:


> If you frame your requirements so rigidly that you specifically exclude those other devices, then, yes, a Mini is your only solution. But that's what I meant when I wrote that objections to the other devices seem to be that those devices don't provide a peanut remote.
> 
> I'm being somewhat facetious with that argument--I don't really believe that the peanut remote is driving consumer's buying decisions, I'm saying that these consumers are unnecessarily limiting their options by only taking a narrow view of their available entertainment options.
> 
> No, those other devices won't interface with cable broadcasts or communicate with your existing investment in Tivo infrastructure because they're not intended to do those functions.
> 
> If a consumer is only interested in viewing commercial video programming, those other devices are capable of receiving and displaying that programming, albeit using different methods. And those devices are significantly cheaper than the Mini.


I don't disagree with any of that. TBH if it wasn't for live TV support and the ability to watch recoded shows I wouldn't touch a mini, but as it stands it's the only option if you want to roll your own hardware these days.

I'm honestly not a huge fan of TiVo in general, but when service providers are trying to charge $40 a month for hardware i'm willing to live with a few quarks here and there.


----------



## P42

Bigg said:


> Of course Roku could do MPEG-2 if they enabled it in software.





crxssi said:


> Um. No. Absolutely not.
> 
> I guarantee the Roku's CPU is nowhere NEAR fast enough to decode HD MPEG2 in software. If the support is not in the GPU chipset for hardware decoding, it ain't gonna happen. And almost none of the chipsets support MPEG2, because it is considered obsolete (and has been for a long time).


The Roku 2, ie the current hardware, uses the BCM*2835 running at 600 MHz which includes the Broadcom's VideoCore® IV. Finally: "Although MPEG2 is not aimed at the mobile market, it runs efficiently on the VideoCore platform.
This is the same SoC as in the Raspberry Pi, for which an MPEG-2 license can be purchased for $3.61.

In short the hardware can do it, based on the above specs, it just doesn't make sense or cents for it to do it for what the product is targeted at.


----------



## atmuscarella

DaveDFW said:


> If you frame your requirements so rigidly that you specifically exclude those other devices, then, yes, a Mini is your only solution. But that's what I meant when I wrote that objections to the other devices seem to be that those devices don't provide a peanut remote.
> 
> I'm being somewhat facetious with that argument--I don't really believe that the peanut remote is driving consumer's buying decisions, I'm saying that these consumers are unnecessarily limiting their options by only taking a narrow view of their available entertainment options and are really only considering Tivo.


I have no idea what most or maybe any other people are thinking. But I make the assumption that when someone is looking at adding a Mini they have already decided they are continuing with Cable TV and are looking for a whole home solution for Cable TV.



DaveDFW said:


> No, those other devices won't interface with cable broadcasts or communicate with your existing investment in Tivo infrastructure because they're not intended to do those functions.
> 
> If a consumer is only interested in viewing commercial video programming, those other devices are capable of receiving and displaying that programming, albeit using different methods. And those devices are significantly cheaper than the Mini.


I think many of us believe the Mini could cost less, I think there will be bundled specials but don't know if they will run sales on stand alone Minis or not.



DaveDFW said:


> Lots of consumers are cord-cutters and no longer receive cable service. It seems like Tivo is marketing the Mini to a group of consumers that is shrinking. I'm saying the Mini should have been priced competitively with other popular devices which accomplish the same goal of delivering video entertainment, because today's cable customers with investments in Tivo infrastructure might start to question the premium pricing needed to maintain a Tivo presence when other options exist.


Yes the number of cable TV household is down but it is still at about 60 million. Not a bad market to be shooting for. Plus the reality is many people using IP Steaming use it to supplement Pay TV not to replace it.

For those who are cutting the traditional cable/satellite cord they have basically three alternative sources of content (1) Over The Air (OTA) broadcast TV, (2) IP Streaming (3) Solid media. This is where TiVo has failed fairly badly. TiVo offers a OTA DVR but so far only dual tuners and they are not offering a lower cost whole home solution that includes Minis. Their IP streaming abilities are only fair and devices like Roku put them to same. And they have dumped solid media completely.

If TiVo where trying to capture the cord cutting households they would be offering a combo Blu-ray/4 tuner OTA DVR with IP Streaming as good as a Roku that supported Minis. They would also offer a combo Mini/blu-ray player. But I know we are not going to see any of it. So I just hope the next DVR hardware upgrade still covers OTA and continues to improve IP streaming.


----------



## jfh3

Mike-Wolf said:


> I'm pretty sure the OTA feature is dead and TiVo has no plans on revisiting it since it hasn't been seen in the newer models


I'm pretty sure you're wrong 

TiVo is not abandoning OTA users. The Q/Elite/Premiere4 exists because the cable partners wanted more tuners and no OTA support. The current hardware design provides for a total of 4 tuners, but to include OTA that would limit cable to 2, which is of no use to the MSOs.

I would be stunned if the next generation did not include a box that supports OTA in some configuration. I'm betting that there will be a multi tuner OTA/cable box in addition to any cable-only models.

And I'll bet the use of a Mini will be possible with any OTA host. It's very easy for TiVo to continue to effectively own the OTA DVR market - they aren't just going to abandon it.


----------



## mr_smits

atmuscarella said:


> If TiVo where trying to capture the cord cutting households they would be offering a combo Blu-ray/4 tuner OTA DVR with IP Streaming as good as a Roku that supported Minis.


You had me until Blu-ray. I have no use for a Blu-ray player as I don't buy or rent physical media. I support the streaming or downloading content. I don't want to deal with yet another physical media format that will only last a few years.


----------



## ssimps0n

They are capturing the under-served cable customers. From my limited research on the subject Verizon seems to have much better features, etc than most. I am stuck with Cox. Their DVR and whole home solution are terrible. I am looking to replace their boxes ($50/mth). I can do so with Tivo with around a two year break even. Tivo offers me many more features, much better interface, 4 tuners, larger storage, etc. I have been using the Cox DVR's for many many years so the 2 years seems like a bargain. Add to that the Stream and now Mini I feel like I am getting a huge leap in performance/features. Yes I have a larger upfront cost but am cutting $50/mth.

Purchased the XL4/Stream and hooked up over the weekend. Now awaiting the mini. (Night and day difference from my old setup). Also able to setup MOCA network for all of the other devices in my HT setup. Several birds killed here.


----------



## NYHeel

I hate to interrupt this extremely relevant topic of what a Roku could theoretically do but I have a quick question on the Mini. With all this talk about Moca, I just wanted to confirm that I can still run the Mini with just a Cat-6 line and no Coax connection is needed at all. I have some locations in my house with CAt-6 wiring but no Coax.


----------



## DaveDFW

NYHeel said:


> I hate to interrupt this extremely relevant topic of what a Roku could theoretically do but I have a quick question on the Mini. With all this talk about Moca, I just wanted to confirm that I can still run the Mini with just a Cat-6 line and no Coax connection is needed at all. I have some locations in my house with CAt-6 wiring but no Coax.


Yes, the Mini includes a traditional RJ45 connector for ethernet. Use of MoCA is optional.


----------



## moyekj

NYHeel said:


> With all this talk about Moca, I just wanted to confirm that I can still run the Mini with just a Cat-6 line and no Coax connection is needed at all. I have some locations in my house with CAt-6 wiring but no Coax.


 Correct. Mini has an ethernet port so you are all set. Coax is only needed for MoCA.


----------



## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> You had me until Blu-ray. I have no use for a Blu-ray player as I don't buy or rent physical media. I support the streaming or downloading content. I don't want to deal with yet another physical media format that will only last a few years.


If I could actually stream HD media I might be more inclined to give up blu-ray.

But even if I could stream HD content high quality brand name blu-ray players with very good IP streaming can be purchased for under a $100. The savings in renting the best quality move from Red Box versus streaming nearly as good HD from Vudu pays for the player in about 35 movies.


----------



## mr_smits

atmuscarella said:


> If I could actually stream HD media I might be more inclined to give up blu-ray.
> 
> But even if I could stream HD content high quality brand name blu-ray players with very good IP streaming can be purchased for under a $100. The savings in renting the best quality move from Red Box versus streaming nearly as good HD from Vudu pays for the player in about 35 movies.


You can download 1080p content from Amazon directly to your Tivo.

RedBox is great for what it is, but the downsides are obvious: poor selection (compared to local rental outlet or Netflix streaming), you are on the clock to watch and return or keep paying by the day, and you support the continued physical media structure. Don't forget when you show up at a Redbox to just return a disc and the person (or persons) in front of you take forever to decide which movie to rent. Redbox is inconvenient unless you already stop by a box on a daily basis -- who goes to Walgreens or the grocery story daily?

I'll take lower quality HD streaming or Amazon downloads over Redbox any day. Convenience is what I value.


----------



## jfh3

Does anyone know yet what outlets will have the Mini for sale on Wednesday?

I tried to find out from my local Best Buy if they will have it, but couldn't get much help from a CSR who insisted they already had it in stock and could buy it today (she was referring to the TiVo Stream, which I confirmed by the SKU).

So glad this marketing partnership with Best Buy is working so well ...


----------



## compnurd

jfh3 said:


> Does anyone know yet what outlets will have the Mini for sale on Wednesday?
> 
> I tried to find out from my local Best Buy if they will have it, but couldn't get much help from a CSR who insisted they already had it in stock and could buy it today (she was referring to the TiVo Stream, which I confirmed by the SKU).
> 
> So glad this marketing partnership with Best Buy is working so well ...


lol you expected good info from best buy


----------



## atmuscarella

mr_smits said:


> You can download 1080p content from Amazon directly to your Tivo.
> 
> RedBox is great for what it is, but the downsides are obvious: poor selection (compared to local rental outlet or Netflix streaming), you are on the clock to watch and return or keep paying by the day, and you support the continued physical media structure. Don't forget when you show up at a Redbox to just return a disc and the person (or persons) in front of you take forever to decide which movie to rent. Redbox is inconvenient unless you already stop by a box on a daily basis -- who goes to Walgreens or the grocery story daily?
> 
> I'll take lower quality HD streaming or Amazon downloads over Redbox any day. Convenience is what I value.


I pretty much agree completely. Everything you said about Redbox is certainly true, I only use Redbox when it makes sense for me (I have 3 Redboxes locally) and I normally reserve on line ahead of time to remove some of the hassle.

Amazon downloads are the only way I can reliably do HD unfortunately I have also had several failures with Amazon downloads that required more time messing around getting the movie again than what I would have liked. Oh well everything has +s and -s.


----------



## jmpage2

atmuscarella said:


> If I could actually stream HD media I might be more inclined to give up blu-ray.
> 
> But even if I could stream HD content high quality brand name blu-ray players with very good IP streaming can be purchased for under a $100. The savings in renting the best quality move from Red Box versus streaming nearly as good HD from Vudu pays for the player in about 35 movies.


Streaming is nowhere near the picture quality of Blu-ray, especially with larger size televisions were artifacts, edge enhancement and other symptoms of over-compression are more obvious.

And audio quality.... most streaming at best does low bitrate DD 5.1 or 640kbps DTS. HD audio, with a good surround sound system blows that crap out of the water.


----------



## jmpage2

jfh3 said:


> Does anyone know yet what outlets will have the Mini for sale on Wednesday?
> 
> I tried to find out from my local Best Buy if they will have it, but couldn't get much help from a CSR who insisted they already had it in stock and could buy it today (she was referring to the TiVo Stream, which I confirmed by the SKU).
> 
> So glad this marketing partnership with Best Buy is working so well ...


I don't think Wednesday is even confirmed for retail availability. For all we know it will only be available for pre-order on Wednesday.

If someone leaks a SKU number then you will be able to determine if your local BB will have it that day.


----------



## innocentfreak

jmpage2 said:


> I don't think Wednesday is even confirmed for retail availability. For all we know it will only be available for pre-order on Wednesday.
> 
> If someone leaks a SKU number then you will be able to determine if your local BB will have it that day.


I could also see it being initially only available from TiVo.

Best Buy usually has the page up for products just before launch with a crazy price, and we haven't seen one yet. There is also no Amazon or third party listing.

Didn't the Stream take a bit to show up at Best Buy?

Also with the Mini requiring the 4, XL4 or Elite, I could see it being only at Magnolia stores.


----------



## aaronwt

I see the option is there for the Mini in the drop down menu when you select "SHOP" on TiVo.com. But when you select the mini it says it can't find the page. So I guess it's ready to go, they just need to activate the page so you can see the option to purchase the mini.

I plan on waiting for BestBuy to get it since I will be using gift cards from there.

At least there is a TiVo Mini section now here at TiVo Community.

EDIT: And now TiVo.com changed things. I don't see a Mini listed on the drop down menu any more


----------



## jmpage2

innocentfreak said:


> I could also see it being initially only available from TiVo.
> 
> Best Buy usually has the page up for products just before launch with a crazy price, and we haven't seen one yet. There is also no Amazon or third party listing.
> 
> Didn't the Stream take a bit to show up at Best Buy?
> 
> Also with the Mini requiring the 4, XL4 or Elite, I could see it being only at Magnolia stores.


The Stream was up for pre-order a few days before the retail availability and like the Mini required the XL4/Elite.

It launched at retail with a "soft launch" which didn't really do much to advertise it, this in part might have been due to the fact that it needed the XL4/Elite, like the Mini.

I highly doubt the Mini will be retail available Wednesday, or even this week honestly. Perhaps TiVo will soft launch it on their website later this week with shipping in a week or two.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I don't recall seeing anything about the Stream requiring an XL4 at launch. People would have complained to high heaven.

Tivo had a pre-order contest for the Stream. They received their pre-orders on the day of general Tivo.com availability (Sept 6?). Retail availability (3rd parties on Amazon, BB) was around a few weeks to a month later.


----------



## jmpage2

Sorry, my mistake, I for some reason was under the impression that the stream required the XL4 or Elite, apparently it does not.

Even then, stream was pretty well "soft launched".


----------



## lgerbarg

crxssi said:


> Entirely plausible (since the modern ARM's are so much faster than even a few years ago), but not sure I believe it (1080P in software with no hardware decoding), though. Even my 3.6Ghz AMD struggles with 1080P without assistance. It is true that some deblocking routines are generic enough to work on either H264 or MPEG2, but it would be only a few parts of many.


My point about it having the hardware is not that you can share pieces of the h.264 and mpeg-2 pipelines (though in some cases you can since they are both iDCT based codecs). My point is that a lot of the video IP you can buy does both, and to rip out the MPEG2 parts involves substantial revisions to the decoder softcore that simply don't tend to make sense when you are laying out an SoC. Admittedly, ripping it out *might* make sense for Apple who has a bespoke SoC for their devices, but it would not make any sense for a merchant SoC (OMAP, Tegra, etc).

As for software, on ARM you need decently written NEON code, but you are greatly over estimating the computational complexity of MPEG-2. I don't know what is wrong with your 3.6Ghz AMD, but my 2.6Ghz quad core Intel decodes 1080p MPEG-2 reference streams at over 350FPS (or approximately ~90FPS per core, in other words, way faster than realtime).



Code:


ffmpeg  -i ~/Downloads/newmobcal1920_18mbps.ts  -f rawvideo - > /dev/null 
ffmpeg version 1.1 Copyright (c) 2000-2013 the FFmpeg developers
  built on Mar  4 2013 16:54:03 with Apple LLVM version 4.2 (clang-425.0.24) (based on LLVM 3.2svn)
  configuration: --prefix=/usr/local/Cellar/ffmpeg/1.1 --enable-shared --enable-pthreads --enable-gpl --enable-version3 --enable-nonfree --enable-hardcoded-tables --enable-avresample --cc=cc --host-cflags= --host-ldflags= --enable-libx264 --enable-libfaac --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libxvid
  libavutil      52. 13.100 / 52. 13.100
  libavcodec     54. 86.100 / 54. 86.100
  libavformat    54. 59.106 / 54. 59.106
  libavdevice    54.  3.102 / 54.  3.102
  libavfilter     3. 32.100 /  3. 32.100
  libswscale      2.  1.103 /  2.  1.103
  libswresample   0. 17.102 /  0. 17.102
  libpostproc    52.  2.100 / 52.  2.100
Input #0, mpegts, from '/Users/louis/Downloads/newmobcal1920_18mbps.ts':
  Duration: 00:01:00.70, start: 1.746644, bitrate: 19524 kb/s
  Program 1 
    Stream #0:0[0x31]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p, 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Stream #0:1[0x32]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s
Output #0, rawvideo, to 'pipe:':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : Lavf54.59.106
    Stream #0:0: Video: rawvideo (I420 / 0x30323449), yuv420p, 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 90k tbn, 29.97 tbc
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (mpeg2video -> rawvideo)
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
[mpeg2video @ 0x7fab8a03ac00] warning: first frame is no keyframe
ac-tex damaged at 74 66.0 size= 5309550kB time=00:00:58.32 bitrate=745750.3kbits/s    
[mpeg2video @ 0x7fab8a03ac00] Warning MVs not available
[mpeg2video @ 0x7fab8a03ac00] concealing 240 DC, 240 AC, 240 MV errors in B frame
frame= 1821 fps=348 q=0.0 Lsize= 5531288kB time=00:01:00.76 bitrate=745750.2kbits/s    
video:5531288kB audio:0kB subtitle:0 global headers:0kB muxing overhead 0.000000%

You don't need to take my word for it, there are several vendors that will happily sell you MPEG-2 decoding middleware for ARM.


----------



## innocentfreak

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I don't recall seeing anything about the Stream requiring an XL4 at launch. People would have complained to high heaven.
> 
> Tivo had a pre-order contest for the Stream. They received their pre-orders on the day of general Tivo.com availability (Sept 6?). Retail availability (3rd parties on Amazon, BB) was around a few weeks to a month later.





jmpage2 said:


> Sorry, my mistake, I for some reason was under the impression that the stream required the XL4 or Elite, apparently it does not.
> 
> Even then, stream was pretty well "soft launched".


I forgot about the preorder contest.

I could see them doing the soft launch for the Mini. This would make sense especially when you consider it is rumored for the 6th and there still has yet to be a press release.

By doing a soft launch they get a smaller pool of initial testers I mean users who might find things that didn't occur in the beta.


----------



## Mike-Wolf

socrplyr said:


> OTA is most likely not dead. Check Tivo's latest filings. They are requesting exemptions from Analog tuners for OTA. That suggests to me that they are probably staying in that game. At some point Tivo will stop updating the S4 platform. That is a given. It will most likely be when the S5 comes out or shortly thereafter.


Is the antenna OTA feature for analog signals or digital signals or both?


----------



## Mike-Wolf

jfh3 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're wrong
> 
> TiVo is not abandoning OTA users. The Q/Elite/Premiere4 exists because the cable partners wanted more tuners and no OTA support. The current hardware design provides for a total of 4 tuners, but to include OTA that would limit cable to 2, which is of no use to the MSOs.
> 
> I would be stunned if the next generation did not include a box that supports OTA in some configuration. I'm betting that there will be a multi tuner OTA/cable box in addition to any cable-only models.
> 
> And I'll bet the use of a Mini will be possible with any OTA host. It's very easy for TiVo to continue to effectively own the OTA DVR market - they aren't just going to abandon it.


Regarding the mini, doesn't that currently use one of the tuners? Would it at some point start using an IP streaming method instead?

Would love to start seeing MPEG4 or H264 encoding from the service providers but I'm sure that's a whole other beast in and of itself.


----------



## Dan203

There is a version of VLC for iOS. It struggles with 1080i/p MPEG-2 on all iOS devices. I think the A6 in the iPad4 can decode most stuff, but it severely cuts battery life and it gets really hot.

Now whether or not the hardware decoder is capable of decoding MPEG-2 or not, I don't know. But it's not exposed via the API so it's not an option for developers.

It seems odd that Roku wouldn't support MPEG-2 if the hardware supported it since licensing is so cheap and they support playback of local, user supplied, video files where MPEG-2 is still widely used. As someone above mentioned even the single seat license on the Raspberry Pi is <$4 and in volume they're <$1. 

In any case if the API doesn't support it then the only option is to do it in software. And the chip in the Roku isn't powerful enough to do it in software. So the only way TiVo could support streaming to a Roku would be to transcode to H.264, which requires a TiVo Stream that is currently $130. Roku + Stream = $230, might as well buy a Mini.


----------



## Dan203

Mike-Wolf said:


> Is the antenna OTA feature for analog signals or digital signals or both?


Digital only. The purpose of the waiver is to allow them to exclude analog encoding hardware. Adding enough chips to encode 4-6 analog channels at once is expensive, complicated and eats up quite a bit of power.


----------



## Dan203

Mike-Wolf said:


> Regarding the mini, doesn't that currently use one of the tuners? Would it at some point start using an IP streaming method instead?
> 
> Would love to start seeing MPEG4 or H264 encoding from the service providers but I'm sure that's a whole other beast in and of itself.


It is IP based. The limitation at launch will be that if you enable live TV support for the Mini it will permanently allocate that tuner for live TV and remove it from the pool of tuners available to the local TiVo for recording even if the Mini isn't actively being used. A future update will allow the Mini to dynamically requisition a tuner from the TiVo only when needed. And when the Mini is idle the TiVo will have access to all tuners for recording and local live TV viewing.

Some cable companies have started broadcasting channels in H.264. They're typically specialty HD channels right now because the cable company has to ensure that the equipment they have deployed can tune the channels as well. Pretty much all HD boxes support H.264, a lot of the older SD boxes do not. Until they replace all their deployed equipment with boxes capable of decoding H.264 they can not convert the majority of the channels. In either case the TiVo Premiere, and presumably the Mini, support H.264 already. So if your cable company makes the switch it will be seamless to you.


----------



## HazelW

Dan203 said:


> It is IP based. The limitation at launch will be that if you enable live TV support for the Mini it will permanently allocate that tuner for live TV and remove it from the pool of tuners available to the local TiVo for recording even if the Mini isn't actively being used. A future update will allow the Mini to dynamically requisition a tuner from the TiVo only when needed. And when the Mini is idle the TiVo will have access to all tuners for recording and local live TV viewing.


Can you manually disable the tuner? Say you only need it once or week or so, can you allocate it and easily de-allocate it after use?


----------



## jmpage2

HazelW said:


> Can you manually disable the tuner? Say you only need it once or week or so, can you allocate it and easily de-allocate it after use?


You might be able to do that but it will probably be a headache. When you do the setup of the Mini it apparently prompts you for tuner allocation from the host TiVo.

So, if you set it up and say "no tuners" and then want to watch live TV at some point you will very likely have to run the guided setup again, which sounds like a royal PITA.


----------



## Dan203

jmpage2 said:


> You might be able to do that but it will probably be a headache. When you do the setup of the Mini it apparently prompts you for tuner allocation from the host TiVo.
> 
> So, if you set it up and say "no tuners" and then want to watch live TV at some point you will very likely have to run the guided setup again, which sounds like a royal PITA.


It's not that bad. The option to allocate the tuner is on the host DVR and can easily be turned on/off. If the option has been turned off and you try to access live TV via the Mini it simply prompts you saying there are no tuners available on the host.

However I do think I read somewhere that when you turn the option on/off it stops all current recordings, so you'll only want to do it if the host TiVo isn't actually recording anything at that moment.


----------



## Kingpcgeek

Mike-Wolf said:


> Is the antenna OTA feature for analog signals or digital signals or both?


What analog signals? Except for a very few low power stations there are no more analog TV signals OTA. An analog tuner would only be for cable.


----------



## crxssi

lgerbarg said:


> I don't know what is wrong with your 3.6Ghz AMD, but my 2.6Ghz quad core Intel decodes 1080p MPEG-2 reference streams at over 350FPS (or approximately ~90FPS per core, in other words, way faster than realtime).


Yikes, I realized after what I said about my AMD I was thinking transcoding, not decoding. My bad.... getting older sucks


----------



## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> It's not that bad. The option to allocate the tuner is on the host DVR and can easily be turned on/off. If the option has been turned off and you try to access live TV via the Mini it simply prompts you saying there are no tuners available on the host.
> 
> However I do think I read somewhere that when you turn the option on/off it stops all current recordings, so you'll only want to do it if the host TiVo isn't actually recording anything at that moment.


I don't record enough things concurrently that the loss of 1 tuner is really a big deal.... especially when they will be doing dynamic tuner allocation in a few months time.


----------



## crxssi

I hate that this thread was moved into a sub-forum. I really didn't want to follow another forum and liked that there was still one thread in the Premiere forum.

Oh well.


----------



## jmpage2

crxssi said:


> I hate that this thread was moved into a sub-forum. I really didn't want to follow another forum and liked that there was still one thread in the Premiere forum.
> 
> Oh well.


Considering that there will be numerous Mini related threads springing up soon it seems like the perfect thing to do. Probably less than 5% of Premiere owners have an XL4 or Elite so it makes far more sense to move an adjunct that only works with a couple of TiVo models and has a unique setup, network requirements, etc, to its own thread.


----------



## lgerbarg

Dan203 said:


> It seems odd that Roku wouldn't support MPEG-2 if the hardware supported it since licensing is so cheap and they support playback of local, user supplied, video files where MPEG-2 is still widely used. As someone above mentioned even the single seat license on the Raspberry Pi is <$4 and in volume they're <$1.


It isn't really that surprising, retail sales channels are brutal. As a manufacturer you generally need to increase the cost of a product by $4 in order to offset a $1 increase in your BOM (in other words, your channel partners take 75% of the profit unless you are large enough to have some real pricing muscle). If you are selling a device for $49 you really need to be making it for $12.50 (25% of retail) to sell it to your distributer for $22.00 to sell it to the store for $25.00 (50% of retail). Adding $1 without offsetting it with an increase (which goes through all of those multipliers ends up cutting your margins by 10%. And since MPEG-2 licenses actually cost $2 at all quantities that would really be a 20% reduction in their profits, or a $8 increase in price to offset.

The lack of the an annual cap is also one of the reasons people don't include MPEG-2 in devices. On h.264 there is a maximum, so for all the big players like Apple, Google, MS, etc it is effectively free on an incremental basis, they just pay their ~$5,000,000 a year and move on. MPEG-2 would cost them for every device, which in Apple's case would by hundreds of millions of dollars a year.


----------



## Dan203

Hmmm.... It's been a while since I looked at our MPEG-LA license. I thought it was lower for the decoder then the encoder, but obviously I was misremembering because that link says they're $2/ea. 

That being said $2 still isn't much. I've seen $50 BluRay players at Wal-Mart and the BD specs require support for MPEG-2. I don't think the hardware in a $50 Roku is much different then that of a $50 BD player. And if the margins are really that thin then they could just charge the user a couple bucks for a special software upgrade to enable MPEG-2. Archos use to do that with some of their portable players. I think the reason they don't enable MPEG-2 has more to do with saving $2 for something they don't think they need, rather then margins being so thin that they can't afford to pay the $2 without increasing the retail price of the device.

In any case we've gone way off track here. Back to discussing the Mini.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> There is a version of VLC for iOS. It struggles with 1080i/p MPEG-2 on all iOS devices. I think the A6 in the iPad4 can decode most stuff, but it severely cuts battery life and it gets really hot.
> 
> Now whether or not the hardware decoder is capable of decoding MPEG-2 or not, I don't know. But it's not exposed via the API so it's not an option for developers.
> 
> It seems odd that Roku wouldn't support MPEG-2 if the hardware supported it since licensing is so cheap and they support playback of local, user supplied, video files where MPEG-2 is still widely used. As someone above mentioned even the single seat license on the Raspberry Pi is <$4 and in volume they're <$1.
> 
> In any case if the API doesn't support it then the only option is to do it in software. And the chip in the Roku isn't powerful enough to do it in software. So the only way TiVo could support streaming to a Roku would be to transcode to H.264, which requires a TiVo Stream that is currently $130. Roku + Stream = $230, might as well buy a Mini.


Doesn't the Roku2 hardware also support transcoding from DD+ to DD? But they don't pay for a license to enable that?

Oh... and on topic...I hope the Mini starts showing up on websites tomorrow so at least we can see that it will actually be available shortly.

I'm worried that if it is available at BestBuy initially, that each store will only have a small amount. So it will be sold out quickly. At least that is how it was when the Elite was released.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Doesn't the Roku2 hardware also support transcoding from DD+ to DD? But they don't pay for a license to enable that?


I don't know how DD+ works (yet), but I've been doing some work with DTS and it structured kind of cool. Basically every DTS frame, even DTS-MA lossless, contains a standard 5.1 DTS frame. Then at the end they tack on extra information for extra channels or the additional data they need to convert the standard DTS data back to lossless. So all you'd need to do to convert DTS-HD or DTS-MA to standard DTS is truncate the frames to only have the "core" data. If it's similar for DD+ then the "transcoding" would be nothing more then truncating a few buffers and no license would be required for that.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> I don't know how DD+ works (yet), but I've been doing some work with DTS and it structured kind of cool. Basically every DTS frame, even DTS-MA lossless, contains a standard 5.1 DTS frame. Then at the end they tack on extra information for extra channels or the additional data they need to convert the standard DTS data back to lossless. So all you'd need to do to convert DTS-HD or DTS-MA to standard DTS is truncate the frames to only have the "core" data. If it's similar for DD+ then the "transcoding" would be nothing more then truncating a few buffers and no license would be required for that.


I remember when it was introduced there was not a DD core. DtS made more sense in how it was done. Which I figured was why most titles ended up having DTS-MA on them instead of Dolby TrueHD. But since Dolby Atmos was launched it seems like more BD titles are coming with Dolby TrueHD now. But still nowhere near the amount that has DTS-MA.


----------



## Bigg

sbiller said:


> TiVo's current Tier 2 cable operator deals will account for approximately *1.2 million households* and *3 million subscribers* by January 2015. They will conservatively contribute *$50 million of high-margin revenue* with virtually zero subscriber acquisition costs. Each one of these deals can be fielded in approximately 4 to 6 months and costs TiVo less than $1 million to deploy. Sometimes an MSO will pay TiVo up-front development costs but normally these deals are funded by TiVo and TiVo recoups the investment through the recurring service revenue.


Wow, that's pretty surprising. Imagine what a deal with a tier 1 MSO would be like! Although they would have to heavily customize it for the MSO.

I can't make any sense of those numbers, except for the revenue numbers. That's pretty impressive. Are those MSOs using TiVo as their only DVR solution, or is TiVo competing against Motorola and Sci Atlanta?


----------



## lgerbarg

crxssi said:


> Yikes, I realized after what I said about my AMD I was thinking transcoding, not decoding. My bad.... getting older sucks


Yeah, that would explain it. When you transcode you are also performing an encode, and all the codecs we are are talking about tend to be asymmetric in practice (encoding takes more horsepower than decoding). Plus I am betting you are decoding mpeg2 and encoding h.264, which is also a substantial complexity increase.


----------



## steve614

I received an e-mail from TiVo today with this headline:

" Dont miss out! Save up to $230 on TiVo Bundle "

I open it to find it's a Stream bundle. WTF?


----------



## sbiller

Bigg said:


> Wow, that's pretty surprising. Imagine what a deal with a tier 1 MSO would be like! Although they would have to heavily customize it for the MSO.
> 
> I can't make any sense of those numbers, except for the revenue numbers. That's pretty impressive. Are those MSOs using TiVo as their only DVR solution, or is TiVo competing against Motorola and Sci Atlanta?


Yes. TiVo is the exclusive advanced television solution provider for all of them.

Agreed on Tier 1s. They tend to want a lot more customization. TiVo does have a deal with Charter Communications (4 million subscribers) but as you probably know they are heading down a different, more customized, "cloud-driven" path. What comes out of their TiVo agreement is anyone's guess - it likely will start with some sort of tablet/companion app that is a variant of the TiVo iOS app.


----------



## Bigg

jfh3 said:


> Sam, what is your estimate of canibilization/churn as a result of the Mini? How many Premiere subs will be lost due to new Mini subs?


It will expand the overall TiVo subscriber base, as there are a lot of people out there with 3-5 TV's who won't buy 3-5 Premieres, but will buy a Premiere or two and some Minis, especially when they get dynamic tuner allocation and support 9 Minis.



lgerbarg said:


> The iPad 4 absolutely has enough horse power to decode MPEG2 at 1080P in software, it just would suck for battery consumption.


That makes more sense... all about those license fees. So basically if you play an MPEG-2 file back on an iPad, you're just going to end up with a hot, dead iPad?



Dan203 said:


> Pretty much all HD boxes support H.264, a lot of the older SD boxes do not. Until they replace all their deployed equipment with boxes capable of decoding H.264 they can not convert the majority of the channels. In either case the TiVo Premiere, and presumably the Mini, support H.264 already. So if your cable company makes the switch it will be seamless to you.


Comcast has a fleet of MPEG-2 only boxes, like the DCT 64XX series. Yes, they are ancient tanks and some of them don't have HDMI, but they are still out there. It wouldn't be that hard to replace them, however, with a slow phase-out of MPEG-2 HD. If they pre-announced it, and then did a few channels at a time, people would trickle in to get new boxes, and they could free up bandwidth for better HD quality and more channels. But that's way too advanced for Comcast! They could do 9.5mbps MPEG-4 (4 per QAM), and it would be gorgeous, way better than the 12mbps triple-channeled MPEG-2 they do now.



sbiller said:


> Yes. TiVo is the exclusive advanced television solution provider for all of them.
> 
> Agreed on Tier 1s. They tend to want a lot more customization. TiVo does have a deal with Charter Communications (4 million subscribers) but as you probably know they are heading down a different, more customized, "cloud-driven" path. What comes out of their TiVo agreement is anyone's guess - it likely will start with some sort of tablet/companion app that is a variant of the TiVo iOS app.


That's how they're getting those numbers on the smaller providers. If they had a lower-cost option, TiVo wouldn't do nearly as well. It's ultimately good for the customers though, as people probably don't realize how much better TiVo is until they use it.


----------



## BlackBetty

Is virgin Media getting the Mini? That is until Liberty dumps TiVo ala directv for their in house DVR.


----------



## Bigg

BlackBetty said:


> Is virgin Media getting the Mini? That is until Liberty dumps TiVo ala directv for their in house DVR.


Pretty sure this is an NTSC, US-Centric device.


----------



## rainwater

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure this is an NTSC, US-Centric device.


The Mini doesn't contain a tuner afaik.


----------



## lgerbarg

Bigg said:


> Pretty sure this is an NTSC, US-Centric device.


As far as plugging a box into a TV goes, back in the analog days NTSC vs PAL vs SECAM mattered. All that is long gone with HD and digital, HDMI is HDMI. The broadcast encoding is different between the US and Europe (which is now ATSC in the US), but it does not actually leak in through the untuned video inputs any more.


----------



## takeagabu

So it's March 6th.....(holds out hand) Tivo Mini please


----------



## jmpage2

takeagabu said:


> So it's March 6th.....(holds out hand) Tivo Mini please


It's 9PM Pacific Time, March 5th, in Cali which is where TiVo is located. I think that "March 6th" for them probably would mean sometime in the next 10-18 hours.


----------



## innocentfreak

I could see a press release 9 AM PST. My gut says it will be direct from TiVo only initially so they will wait till morning.

I could also see them delaying it a day to screw with Zatz.


----------



## jfh3

Past midnight in California. No sign of the Mini


----------



## Loach

jfh3 said:


> Past midnight in California. No sign of the Mini


Product launch press releases are not generally issued in the middle of the night. That said, it's now 2 minutes before the stock market opens and......still nothing. I can see an announcement happening anytime during business hours today though.


----------



## davezatz

Loach said:


> Product launch press releases are not generally issued in the middle of the night. That said, it's now 2 minutes before the stock market opens and......still nothing. I can see an announcement happening anytime during business hours today though.


Actually, TiVo has a history of midnight embargos... And, for comparison, the Roku 3 was announced at 9PM EST yesterday.


----------



## Loach

davezatz said:


> Actually, TiVo has a history of midnight embargos... And, for comparison, the Roku 3 was announced at 9PM EST yesterday.


Did not know that. Getting a little worried now - but notice tivo.com is loading pages awfully slow this morning so maybe something's up.


----------



## NotNowChief

Loach said:


> Did not know that. Getting a little worried now - but notice tivo.com is loading pages awfully slow this morning so maybe something's up.


Yeah, everybody going to the page to see if its on sale yet is the reason why its running slow.


----------



## mahohmei

It appears that the TiVo mini will only work if there is a four-tuner TiVo in the home. All I currently have is a Premiere two-tuner for which I paid $500 (lifetime service).

Does TiVo have future plans to make the mini compatible with two-tuner TiVos? I really want a mini for my bedroom TV, but not badly enough to replace the TiVo. 

I had heard somewhere that TiVo is working on making the mini not even tie up one tuner on the master unit.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> Actually, TiVo has a history of midnight embargos... And, for comparison, the Roku 3 was announced at 9PM EST yesterday.


Yep. I'm guessing midnight tonight.


----------



## cmonroe

Looks like the mini does not live (today at least). It amazes me how long it's taken them to develop a thin client. It really isn't that much work, especially when the core software functionality already exists on a similar platform just with no local storage. This thing was announced for release what, a year ago?


----------



## Loach

NotNowChief said:


> Yeah, everybody going to the page to see if its on sale yet is the reason why its running slow.


Yeah, kind of wondered the same thing after I wrote it. It seems to be loading much faster now that everybody has probably given up for the day!


----------



## agdoc2001

I've got TWC and a home with 5 tvs. One is on an HD TiVo, one is on a cable box, the other 3 are plugged into the wall. I was waiting for the mini and thinking of adding an xl4 to the living room, putting the HD in the master bedroom, and eventually putting 3 minis on the other sets. But now the Roku 3 has a TWC channel and I'm thinking really hard about keeping the Hd TiVo and just adding Roku 3 to the other tvs. Would I really be missing anything with this setup? Obviously, I couldn't watch my recorded shows everywhere, but I tend to watch those in the living room only and only watch live tv on the other sets.


----------



## NotNowChief

Still nothing 13:20EST

http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-news&nyo=0


----------



## takeagabu

I think I know the problem. This is Tivo, so they must have meant March 6th 2014.


----------



## Dan203

Well we based all this hype on info provided by one person. Apparently (s)he was wrong or TiVo changed their plans. In any case the fact that it's listed on the beta site, and that it was briefly listed on the main site, indicates that it is very close. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next week, but if it's not at least released this month I'd be very surprised.


----------



## NotNowChief

I don't know what's more ridiculous right now, the fact that they haven't put this thing on sale yet, or the fact that I actually believed that they were going to put this thing on sale today.


----------



## Davisadm

Dan203 said:


> Well we based all this hype on info provided by one person. Apparently (s)he was wrong or TiVo changed their plans.


I also attended the online dealer meeting for the Mini. This is legitimate, coming from TiVo.

All TiVo dealers were notified about the Mini March 6 release date.


----------



## jmpage2

Davisadm said:


> I also attended the online dealer meeting for the Mini. This is legitimate, coming from TiVo.
> 
> All TiVo dealers were notified about the Mini March 6 release date.


Then I would imagine that at least a couple of you guys have contacts at TiVo who could be interrogated on what happened to the promised March 6th release.


----------



## lessd

NotNowChief said:


> I don't know what's more ridiculous right now, the fact that they haven't put this thing on sale yet, or the fact that I actually believed that they were going to put this thing on sale today.


This is what happens when you have rampant speculation, TiVo never said when the Mini was going to be released, so giving TiVo bad rap for not releasing something they never said they were going to release is not sensible. One poster said it would be released today and many of you think TiVo took a full page ad out in the New York Times saying that on March 6 they would release the Mini. 
People are also carping on the price (a guess also), the same thing happened when in Sept of 2006 the first Series 3 was announced at $800, don't like the price (of any product) don't purchase.
*BUT*
To keep posting about both of these things without any new confirmed information just clogged up this thread without providing anything useful, and if something useful was posted most people could not find it.


----------



## Davisadm

jmpage2 said:


> Then I would imagine that at least a couple of you guys have contacts at TiVo who could be interrogated on what happened to the promised March 6th release.


I'll contact my rep tomorrow.


----------



## bluebsh

odd that TiVo doesn't them on the site... our local best buy has them in stock and was going to put them out today apparently, but as of right now has not put them on the shelves yet


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Well we based all this hype on info provided by one person. Apparently (s)he was wrong or TiVo changed their plans.


I have multiple data points that indicate TiVo shifted the announcement/launch around. But pretty sure it's still coming this week. Who knows, maybe it was something as silly as the web store not being ready or something like lining up the announcement with a Walt Mossberg or NYTimes column and publication time - it's how these things work.


----------



## Dan203

Tomorrow is another day. I'm not that anxious to get my hands on one right now, so it's not a big deal to me. I just like to see new technology.

I can't really utilize a Mini until my cable company starts broadcasting everything in digital. With there still being a handful of Analog channels I have to keep a full blown 2 tuner Premiere around anyway.

I'm hoping that my cable company get's off their ass and starts at least simulcasting by the time the 6 tuner unit hits. Then I can get one of those and a couple of Minis and consolidate a whole lot of stuff.


----------



## L David Matheny

davezatz said:


> I have multiple data points that indicate TiVo shifted the announcement/launch around. But pretty sure it's still coming this week. Who knows, maybe it was something as silly as the web store not being ready or something like lining up the announcement with a Walt Mossberg or NYTimes column and publication time - it's how these things work.


You mean we shouldn't all be running around screaming about the end of civilization as we know it? Things happen that could delay the launch by a day or two? Wow, nobody seems to have thought of that! Thanks!


----------



## wkearney99

davezatz said:


> Actually, TiVo has a history of midnight embargos... And, for comparison, the Roku 3 was announced at 9PM EST yesterday.


Clever thing is it has a headphone jack in the remote. I've been wanting something like that for ages. Mainly to allow listening to the news in the morning before my wife wakes up, or in the middle of the night if I can't sleep.


----------



## DigitalDawn

As I said in the other thread, TiVo told us March 6 in the dealer meeting. I guess they decided to postpone it at the last minute.

I see that they have more dealer trainings set up, so maybe they just want to give it a bit more time. Should be this month though.

I got all the other stuff right.....


----------



## mr_smits

DigitalDawn said:


> As I said in the other thread, TiVo told us March 6 in the dealer meeting. I guess they decided to postpone it at the last minute.
> 
> I see that they have more dealer trainings set up, so maybe they just want to give it a bit more time. Should be this month though.
> 
> I got all the other stuff right.....


As someone else mentioned, probably want to avoid the Roku 3 discussion that is now happening.


----------



## SactoEJ

DigitalDawn said:


> I got all the other stuff right.....


Yes, you did - I know I appreciated it!!

Dates slip. It happens.


----------



## Davisadm

My rep had no info to tell today. :-(
Chat with TiVo CS today:


----------



## jmpage2

Davisadm said:


> My rep had no info to tell today. :-(
> Chat with TiVo CS today:


What's funny is that you think a CS rep is going to give you factually accurate information about a product launch. They are literally the most in-the-dark people at pretty much any company.


----------



## Davisadm

jmpage2 said:


> What's funny is that you think a CS rep is going to give you factually accurate information about a product launch. They are literally the most in-the-dark people at pretty much any company.


No, I didn't think the CS was going to give me any info. I was just curious what a CS would say.

But I was disappointed my TiVo rep had no info!


----------



## jfh3

It was initially going to be release in August of last year. It's 7 months later - you would think it works by now, especially since SuddenLink has released it.

The only reason I would find the delay reasonable is if the put the dynamic tuner support in before the launch and allow the use of a Premiere as a host.


----------



## DaveDFW

jfh3 said:


> It was initially going to be release in August of last year. It's 7 months later - you would think it works by now, especially since SuddenLink has released it.
> 
> The only reason I would find the delay reasonable is if the put the dynamic tuner support in before the launch and allow the use of a Premiere as a host.


But wouldn't they have to push out a software update to enable dynamic tuner allocation? We just received a major update at the end of last year, so I doubt there's another major update coming soon.

One of the speculated reasons for limiting the Mini to four-tuner boxes is that a two-tuner box would transform into a one-tuner box. But I was just thinking today that perhaps the limitation concerns the analog and OTA tuners in two-tuner Premieres. Is it possible there's some technical limitation that prevents Mini functionality on those tuners that were removed in the XL4/Elite?


----------



## Dan203

According to the guys/gals that went to the training meeting dynamic tuner allocation isn't coming until Q2. So it's unlikely it'll be available at launch.


----------



## dhoward

If this is not released soon it will be the 2nd quarter...


----------



## davezatz

dhoward said:


> If this is not released soon it will be the 2nd quarter...


Yeah, it's weird. I keep going through the possibilities in my mind what the delay could be. Are the waiting on the TiVo Desktop/TiVoToGo fix so they can properly/accurately market "whole home" including PCs when this launches? Production problems? Rethinking the pricing? Lining up with a Walt Mossberg review? Weird.


----------



## button1066

davezatz said:


> Yeah, it's weird. I keep going through the possibilities in my mind what the delay could be. Are the waiting on the TiVo Desktop/TiVoToGo fix so they can properly/accurately market "whole home" including PCs when this launches? Production problems? Rethinking the pricing? Lining up with a Walt Mossberg review? Weird.


If 'dynamic tuner allocation' is a big deal and it won't be finished for a few weeks or couple of months (Q2) then wouldn't that be the obvious reason they are delaying the Mini release?

Separate issue...I only have two tuner Premieres so it's a wash to me but I can't help but wonder how they are going to deal with all the other two tuner Premiere owners picking Mini's up at Best Buy and not understanding why they don't work. That seems the biggest headache for them and maybe (my wishful thinking) they are trying to find a way to make the Mini universally compatible with all Premieres. Note: I think that it is not a great situation when a company releases things that aren't even compatible with their own products.


----------



## Riverdome

Maybe I'm showing my lack of Tivo "under the hood" knowledge but what's the difference between the 2 and 4 Tivo premieres? I understand not making things compatible with older S3 models but I was under the impression that the 2 and 4 tuner premiers were the same architecture but there must be more than just 2 more tuners under there.


----------



## mr_smits

button1066 said:


> If 'dynamic tuner allocation' is a big deal and it won't be finished for a few weeks or couple of months (Q2) then wouldn't that be the obvious reason they are delaying the Mini release?


Here is my list in order of most likely to least likely:


Roku 3 was just announced; waiting for the discussion to die down
The Suddenlink rollout of the Mini has resulted in some interesting lessons (support, education, pricing, etc) that Tivo wants to incorporate for a better retail user experience.
The Tivo Desktop software is almost complete.
Android Stream compatibility is almost complete.
Dynamic tuner issue is almost complete.


----------



## button1066

Riverdome said:


> Maybe I'm showing my lack of Tivo "under the hood" knowledge but what's the difference between the 2 and 4 Tivo premieres? I understand not making things compatible with older S3 models but I was under the impression that the 2 and 4 tuner premiers were the same architecture but there must be more than just 2 more tuners under there.


The Mini has a restriction whereby it can only be paired with a four tuner TiVo. Sounds silly but apparently it's true. Marketing the device is going to be a nightmare.

I think the two and four tuner TiVos are pretty much the same in terms of architecture but I don't really know.


----------



## P42

Commenting on mr_smits 1 to 5


Doubtful they care abouth t eRoku3 release, and if this is the cause of the delay, then they are wusses.
Suddenlink: This is very possible, maybe it highlighted a significant software bug.
They would have know about this sooner, and planned around it.
They would have know about this sooner, and planned around it.
They would have know about this sooner, and planned around it.

@Riverdome: 
The Mini will work fine with a two tuner Premieres IMO. Tivo is choosing to tie it to 4 tuner, possible to enable live TV viewing without disrupting the Tivo it is viewing from - doing this without disruption from a two tuner box is less likely. In a house with just a two tuner box it is more likely that both tuners will be recording, particularly during prime time viewing, which is likely also when people would like to watch live TV. 
Yes, the Mini would server as a perfectly good streaming only box, and no live TV option, but then the Mini would not be fully part of the whole house TV viewing experience, as you'd not be able to watch live _cable_ co supplied TV from that location.

Like others, I'll not by buying a Mini any time soon, but then, I'd also need to buy a second TV to connect it to


----------



## DaveDFW

Riverdome said:


> Maybe I'm showing my lack of Tivo "under the hood" knowledge but what's the difference between the 2 and 4 Tivo premieres? I understand not making things compatible with older S3 models but I was under the impression that the 2 and 4 tuner premiers were the same architecture but there must be more than just 2 more tuners under there.


The only thing I can think that might be an issue is that the two-tuner Premieres include OTA and analog tuners and the four-tuner Premieres are digital only. Regardless of the input signal, the two-tuners Tivos can save programming to storage, so it seems like they should be able to stream to a Mini.

I suspect that it's more of an artificial limitation. Tivo either wants to avoid turning someone's two-tuner box into a one-tuner box, or they want to give consumers extra incentive to buy four-tuner boxes.


----------



## jamesjones_det

button1066 said:


> The Mini has a restriction whereby it can only be paired with a four tuner TiVo. Sounds silly but apparently it's true. Marketing the device is going to be a nightmare.
> 
> I think the two and four tuner TiVos are pretty much the same in terms of architecture but I don't really know.


I don't remember where exactly I saw the requirement list but I thought I saw that the 2 tuner cable and 2 tuner OTA TiVos were supported.

I don't think two tuner versions will be supported until dynamic tuner allocation is added (if ever). What we also don't know is can a mini stream recorded shows from a 2 tuner premier? I would bet you can, but probably won't be advertised because the mini is not fully functional at that point.

This is all just rampant speculation until we here more from TiVo.


----------



## button1066

mr_smits said:


> Here is my list in order of most likely to least likely:
> 
> 
> Roku 3 was just announced; waiting for the discussion to die down
> The Suddenlink rollout of the Mini has resulted in some interesting lessons (support, education, pricing, etc) that Tivo wants to incorporate for a better retail user experience.
> The Tivo Desktop software is almost complete.
> Android Stream compatibility is almost complete.
> Dynamic tuner issue is almost complete.


I doubt that another company's unrelated product has anything to do with it.

The retail user experience is undoubtedly a factor in the release - "What do you mean it won't work with my TiVo??!" ad nauseum.

I don't get why a company would release a product when a major update will be required for it just a few weeks later, i.e. dynamic tuner allocation. This is the obvious reason for the delay as far as I'm concerned.

Either way the Mini is shaping up to be a cluster and it hasn't even come out yet which is a record even for TiVo.


----------



## button1066

jamesjones_det said:


> I don't remember where exactly I saw the requirement list but I thought I saw that the 2 tuner cable and 2 tuner OTA TiVos were supported.
> 
> I don't think two tuner versions will be supported until dynamic tuner allocation is added (if ever). What we also don't know is can a mini stream recorded shows from a 2 tuner premier? I would bet you can, but probably won't be advertised because the mini is not fully functional at that point.
> 
> This is all just rampant speculation until we here more from TiVo.


I agree with you pretty much. I think the issue of current incompatibility with two tuner models which will be fixed with the dynamic tuner allocation update is the reason for the delay. Two tuner models on your network are supported currently apparently but the initial pairing has to be done with a four tuner model. Ridiculous really.

Anything else and the lack of logic to the whole thing just gets to be too much to take the product seriously.


----------



## takeagabu

I was speaking to a tech blog editor and this is what he said:

I believe the four tuner requirement is purely business related, not a technical limitation. So no, I don't expect the Mini to work with a two-tuner Tivo.


----------



## moyekj

takeagabu said:


> I was speaking to a tech blog editor and this is what he said:
> 
> I believe the four tuner requirement is purely business related, not a technical limitation. So no, I don't expect the Mini to work with a two-tuner Tivo.


 That's not the whole story though. It *does* stream from 2 tuner units, but also requires a 4 tuner host.

Perhaps when TiVo was preparing the support staff for retail release they finally realized the current restrictions are just too hard to explain easily and may have resulted in many returned units. So either they need more time to put together all the marketing and support infrastructure to deal with the complex requirements or they are actually re-thinking releasing to retail with those complications.


----------



## davezatz

CNET published than pulled a TiVo Mini review. Not sure what's going on... but an excerpt lives on in their RSS feed.


----------



## jjd_87

davezatz said:


> CNET published than pulled a TiVo Mini review. Not sure what's going on... but an excerpt lives on in their RSS feed.


Any way to link to this? I can't find it.


----------



## davezatz

jjd_87 said:


> Any way to link to this? I can't find it.


It's in their RSS feed, at least the services that cache it for any length. This is the destination page - I assume it had all the details but then they must have wiped it. I didn't actually get to read it - the alert came in too late.

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/tivo-mini/4505-6739_7-35627726.html


----------



## jjd_87

davezatz said:


> It's in their RSS feed, at least the services that cache it for any length. This is the destination page - I assume it had all the details but then they must have wiped it. I didn't actually get to read it - the alert came in too late.
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/tivo-mini/4505-6739_7-35627726.html


bummer


----------



## jmpage2

It's rather strange for them to pull this at the last minute. They might have discovered a very serious technical issue that they need a little more time to resolve prior to the launch. I doubt it's to add Netflix or any other window dressing.


----------



## mr_smits

Maybe Tivo is unveiling it on Saturday along with the gdgt event in Austin? From their twitter feed:

"gdgt ‏@gdgt
Get hands on with the new @TiVo Mini at #gdgtAustin and give our friends from @TiVo your feedback. http://bit.ly/gdgtAustin13 
Retweeted by TiVo"


----------



## southerndoc

Not sure if this is related or not, but if you read the fine print for the TiVo Premier 4 + Stream + MoCA Adapter, it states the sale ends March 11.

Could TiVo wait until March 12 to release it?

http://www3.tivo.com/promo/p4streambundle.html?WT.ac=homepage_shopnow


----------



## jfh3

I have heard Tuesday, March 12th as well. I don't recall TiVo announcing on days other than Tuesday, so I'd be surprised if we see one Sqturday at the Austin show. 

But if they are going to showcase it this weekend, it would be awfully stupid if the release wasn't sometime next week.


----------



## bearcat2000

I think we're all a little tired of guessing as we thought we would already have it set up and be using it by now.


----------



## mahohmei

My question still remains unanswered: are there any future plans for the mini to work with the two-tuner Premiere, for us two-tuner Premiere lifetime owners?


----------



## DaveDFW

mahohmei said:


> My question still remains unanswered: are there any future plans for the mini to work with the two-tuner Premiere, for us two-tuner Premiere lifetime owners?


I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question yet. As far as we know, a Mini will require a four-tuner Tivo for initial setup but after being set up, the Mini should stream from any other two-tuner Premieres on your network.

So the real question is whether Tivo will remove the four-tuner requirement for initial setup.


----------



## L David Matheny

DaveDFW said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question yet. As far as we know, a Mini will require a four-tuner Tivo for initial setup but after being set up, the Mini should stream from any other two-tuner Premieres on your network.
> 
> So the real question is whether Tivo will remove the four-tuner requirement for initial setup.


My guess would be that TiVo will remove the four-tuner requirement when they release new software with dynamic tuner allocation.


----------



## Dan203

L David Matheny said:


> My guess would be that TiVo will remove the four-tuner requirement when they release new software with dynamic tuner allocation.


That's my guess as well. But there are no guarantees. They could use the Mini as a carrot to get more people to upgrade to 4 tuner boxes.


----------



## davezatz

CNET's review has been indexed by Google and it pretty much confirms pricing and absence of Netflix while indicating a "fairly lag-free" experience in pulling content from the source DVR.


----------



## DaveDFW

davezatz said:


> CNET's review has been indexed by Google and it pretty much confirms pricing and absence of Netflix while indicating a "fairly lag-free" experience in pulling content from the source DVR.


Did Tivo's communications director object to the tenor of cnet's review? I think they already have their astroturfers posting in force at TCF.


----------



## Dan203

Does Google still keep a complete cache of sites like that? I know they use to, but I can't seem to find it any more.


----------



## DaveDFW

I'll bet Tivo hated this part.

"I'm not entirely sure why Tivo charges a subscription fee for a device..."


----------



## Dan203

The complete quote is...


> I'm not entirely sure why TiVo charges a subscription fee for a device that's basically sucking information from a host DVR that you're also paying a subscription fee for, but, that's the pricing.


----------



## DaveDFW

Dan203 said:


> The complete quote is...


The completed quote still fails to be good news for Tivo. Writing negatively about the Mini's pricing does not make the Mini more attractive.


----------



## Dan203

Found the complete review in the cache...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ews.cnet.com/TiVo_Mini/4505-5_7-35627726.html


----------



## moyekj

Confirmed lack of Netflix is very disappointing and puzzling.


----------



## magnus

DaveDFW said:


> The completed quote still fails to be good news for Tivo. Writing negatively about the Mini's pricing does not make the Mini more attractive.


Negative or not, it's truthful.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

magnus said:


> Negative or not, it's truthful.


Indeed, I'm glad to see journalists willing to mention it. And I hope other reviewers do too so it's not just the community festering on the issue, whom I think Tivo's a little too willing to ignore.


----------



## Bigg

DaveDFW said:


> But wouldn't they have to push out a software update to enable dynamic tuner allocation? We just received a major update at the end of last year, so I doubt there's another major update coming soon.
> 
> One of the speculated reasons for limiting the Mini to four-tuner boxes is that a two-tuner box would transform into a one-tuner box. But I was just thinking today that perhaps the limitation concerns the analog and OTA tuners in two-tuner Premieres. Is it possible there's some technical limitation that prevents Mini functionality on those tuners that were removed in the XL4/Elite?


They could just make it not work with analog, although it's already being encoded to get dumped on the hard drive, so there's no reason that couldn't be streamed. Furthering that train of thought, say your cable provider has local access or something still on analog, and you have an XL4 and a Premiere (2-tuner). You can pair the Mini with the XL4 and stream the encoded analog recordings off of the Premiere, so why not cut the XL4 out? Same logic argument would work for OTA in a household that has both. It's an entirely arbitrary requirement.

If anything, they should just allow it to have 0 tuners and stream only off a 2-tuner, which has an even more convincing use case for OTA, where people could just plug the cable into the back of each TV for live, and then use the Mini for recorded stuff. Yes, you'd lose trick play of live, but you'd end up with the same functionality as an MSO-supplied WHDVR system.



moyekj said:


> Confirmed lack of Netflix is very disappointing and puzzling.


Clearly we all need yet ANOTHER device that streams Netflix. As it is, when I get Netflix, I have to choose which of several devices to stream it on.

That CNET reviewer is 100% correct on the pricing thing, it makes no sense.


----------



## moyekj

Bigg said:


> Clearly we all need yet ANOTHER device that streams Netflix. As it is, when I get Netflix, I have to choose which of several devices to stream it on.


 Not the case for me. Aside from a laptop the only other choice for me would be a Wii and crappy resolution so really no option other than TiVos for streaming Netflix. Since the Mini has been confirmed as much faster running Flash apps it could actually be a reasonably fast experience running Netflix on the Mini. Hopefully Netflix will be coming to the Mini in time...


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> They could just make it not work with analog, although it's already being encoded to get dumped on the hard drive, so there's no reason that couldn't be streamed. Furthering that train of thought, say your cable provider has local access or something still on analog, and you have an XL4 and a Premiere (2-tuner). You can pair the Mini with the XL4 and stream the encoded analog recordings off of the Premiere, so why not cut the XL4 out?


It's unlikely that the analog signal itself is an issue, but it is possible that the way a 2 tuner unit shares a pare of physical tuners, one cable and one OTA, for each "tuner" could be a problem. Although I doubt it. The waiver TiVo filed with the FCC said that at least one of their next gen boxes would have OTA and i'd be shocked if any next gen unit didn't support the Mini.

I really think it's the number of tuners that's the problem. They don't want to disable live TV on the Mini and they don't want to permenantly hobble the Premiere by relegating it to a single tuner.

We'll know for sure if that was their reasoning when dynamic tuner allocation is done. If they allow 2 tuner boxes to be a host then, then we will know that was the problem. If not then it's either something technical we don't know about or a marketing ploy to sell more 4 tuner units.


----------



## wkearney99

Bigg said:


> Clearly we all need yet ANOTHER device that streams Netflix.


Each time you make the customer stop using your device is an opportunity for that other device maker to keep them. It's all about not changing inputs or remotes. Sure, some of us are programmed-remote fanatics, but most of the world isn't, and shouldn't have to be.

No Netflix on the Mini makes it an absolute non-starter. Dead in the water. Not getting purchased. Such a shame.


----------



## sbiller

wkearney99 said:


> Each time you make the customer stop using your device is an opportunity for that other device maker to keep them. It's all about not changing inputs or remotes. Sure, some of us are programmed-remote fanatics, but most of the world isn't, and shouldn't have to be.
> 
> No Netflix on the Mini makes it an absolute non-starter. Dead in the water. Not getting purchased. Such a shame.


I'm guessing that TiVo needs Netflix to make some sort of minor update to their software to reliably work on the Mini. We know Hulu Plus works and I suspect the Hulu Plus experience is much improved with the faster processor. Like TiVo, Netflix needs to prioritize its resources writing apps and TiVo is probably way down on the list. If TiVo's MSO partners were licensed to receive Netflix streaming content, I suspect that it would change the priority for Netflix.

Amazon, OTOH, seems like a good fit for the Mini since we know some of TiVo's MSO-partners are offering Amazon downloads. I know that others feel like Amazon competes directly with their premium VOD offerings so they don't offer it on their TiVo boxes. With that said, we would need a completely new Amazon app to support the Mini. I would imagine that it would not be that difficult for Amazon to write one since, IIRC, they already have an Adobe Air for TV Amazon Streaming app for Samsung Smart TVs.


----------



## magnus

wkearney99 said:


> Each time you make the customer stop using your device is an opportunity for that other device maker to keep them. It's all about not changing inputs or remotes. Sure, some of us are programmed-remote fanatics, but most of the world isn't, and shouldn't have to be.
> 
> No Netflix on the Mini makes it an absolute non-starter. Dead in the water. Not getting purchased. Such a shame.


If you were going to be missing something... it wouldn't be Netflix... that is for sure. And I really have to say that Amazon Instant is also a must have.


----------



## aaronwt

magnus said:


> If you were going to be missing something... it wouldn't be Netflix... that is for sure. And I really have to say that Amazon Instant is also a must have.


Well The TiVo boxes are some of the few that offer 1080P24 output from Netflix.


----------



## slowbiscuit

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Indeed, I'm glad to see journalists willing to mention it. And I hope other reviewers do too so it's not just the community festering on the issue, whom I think Tivo's a little too willing to ignore.


They're willing to ignore us because we're not their main sales focus now.


----------



## slowbiscuit

sbiller said:


> Amazon, OTOH, seems like a good fit for the Mini since we know some of TiVo's MSO-partners are offering Amazon downloads. I know that others feel like Amazon competes directly with their premium VOD offerings so they don't offer it on their TiVo boxes.


And Netflix doesn't? Seriously, is that what you've heard is the reason why Instant Video wasn't done for the Premieres? That makes no sense.


----------



## compnurd

aaronwt said:


> Well The TiVo boxes are some of the few that offer 1080P24 output from Netflix.


They may have left it out until Netflix speeds up there App.. Alot of people *****ed about the new Netflix App and Tivo may have told them to get there **** together before they put it on this box


----------



## sbiller

slowbiscuit said:


> And Netflix doesn't? Seriously, is that what you've heard is the reason why Instant Video wasn't done for the Premieres? That makes no sense.


I suspect that Netflix competes with mostly their non-Premium VOD but when it comes to a head-to-head comparison on renting a new release Premium movie like Argo, Netflix doesn't compete. My cable operator can charge $5.99 for Argo while its available in 1080p HD from Amazon for $4.98.


----------



## morac

sbiller said:


> I suspect that Netflix competes with mostly their non-Premium VOD but when it comes to a head-to-head comparison on renting a new release Premium movie like Argo, Netflix doesn't compete. My cable operator can charge $5.99 for Argo while its available in 1080p HD from Amazon for $4.98.


Technically Netflix competes with Comcast's Streampix service, though Netlfix's library is a lot larger and it has exclusives.


----------



## moyekj

compnurd said:


> They may have left it out until Netflix speeds up there App.. Alot of people *****ed about the new Netflix App and Tivo may have told them to get there **** together before they put it on this box


 That's just the thing though. The Mini with updated SOCs is reportedly much faster at running Flash Apps than the series 4 units with tuners, so I was expecting a much faster experience running Netflix on the Mini. All the more reason to be disappointed about it being missing.


----------



## Bigg

wkearney99 said:


> Each time you make the customer stop using your device is an opportunity for that other device maker to keep them. It's all about not changing inputs or remotes. Sure, some of us are programmed-remote fanatics, but most of the world isn't, and shouldn't have to be.
> 
> No Netflix on the Mini makes it an absolute non-starter. Dead in the water. Not getting purchased. Such a shame.


TiVo is the only cable device that also has Netflix (other than running it through software in MCE). The reality is that most people now use a different device for Netflix than for TV, so switching to another device isn't the end of the world.


----------



## jfh3

Bigg said:


> TiVo is the only cable device that also has Netflix (other than running it through software in MCE). The reality is that most people now use a different device for Netflix than for TV, so switching to another device isn't the end of the world.


Except that TiVo wants to be a one box solution so you don't have to change from Input 1.

Not having the Mini support anything a Premiere can is a significant problem in that regard. I don't care because I don't mind switching to whatever input is needed for a particular service (I have 7 devices connected), but it drives my wife and Joe Sixpack crazy.


----------



## Bigg

jfh3 said:


> Except that TiVo wants to be a one box solution so you don't have to change from Input 1.
> 
> Not having the Mini support anything a Premiere can is a significant problem in that regard. I don't care because I don't mind switching to whatever input is needed for a particular service (I have 7 devices connected), but it drives my wife and Joe Sixpack crazy.


I suppose they should have them all if they are wanting to become a one-box solution. However, it's also just a matter of time before every TV, even small ones, have Netflix and the like built in. And no matter what, no one can integrate AirPlay, which is one of the biggest game changers in this market, since it's Apple and they don't license much of anything to third parties. And the Apple TV streams Netflix as well.


----------



## Dan203

The concept behind AirPlay is great, but I think you're over estimating it's significance. MS has a similar technology for Windows 8 and XBox, and as I mentioned in another thread Samsung has something similar that works with certain apps with their smart TVs. When it comes to that sort of thing people are going to use what's available and works with their particular tablet/phone. No one is going to go out and buy an iPad and an Apple TV just for AirPlay.

TiVo has a chance to become the "one box" they wanted to be. But they need faster hardware and a better developer program. Sounds like they're moving toward better hardware, so they just need to improve the developer program to entice more developers.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> The concept behind AirPlay is great, but I think you're over estimating it's significance. MS has a similar technology for Windows 8 and XBox, and as I mentioned in another thread Samsung has something similar that works with certain apps with their smart TVs. When it comes to that sort of thing people are going to use what's available and works with their particular tablet/phone. No one is going to go out and buy an iPad and an Apple TV just for AirPlay.
> 
> TiVo has a chance to become the "one box" they wanted to be. But they need faster hardware and a better developer program. Sounds like they're moving toward better hardware, so they just need to improve the developer program to entice more developers.


The point is, there are already a ton of devices out there, and Apple owns the tablet market, with the exception of a lot of low-value customers on the Kindle Fire series, unlike the smartphone market where it's Apple and Google both as serious players.

AirPlay just works so well since you have the device to browse for content and then can just send it to the TV.

Yeah, if they do that, they could become big on the apps side.


----------



## neo_sapien

Why doesn't TiVo launch these things right? Advertise for them, put up whole-home bundles at TiVo.com and amazon.com for pre-order. An actual marketing campaign.


----------



## aaronwt

neo_sapien said:


> Why doesn't TiVo launch these things right? Advertise for them, put up whole-home bundles at TiVo.com and amazon.com for pre-order. An actual marketing campaign.


Because that would make too much sense.


----------



## jfh3

neo_sapien said:


> Why doesn't TiVo launch these things right? Advertise for them, put up whole-home bundles at TiVo.com and amazon.com for pre-order. An actual marketing campaign.


They have a perfect track record of ineffective marketing - why change course now? 

I never find anything first from being on any TiVo interested parties list - I usually get those emails a few weeks after I've already purchased the product in question and looks like it will be the same with the Mini since I've ordered three before TiVo even told me there were available for purchase.


----------



## jfh3

aaronwt said:


> Because that would make too much sense.


+1


----------



## akalion

Looks like they are on sale now on tivo.com. Just finished ordering mine.


----------



## compnurd

moyekj said:


> That's just the thing though. The Mini with updated SOCs is reportedly much faster at running Flash Apps than the series 4 units with tuners, so I was expecting a much faster experience running Netflix on the Mini. All the more reason to be disappointed about it being missing.


But then you are assuming the the Tivo is the slow part of the process....

For all we know it could be the app itself


----------



## moyekj

compnurd said:


> But then you are assuming the the Tivo is the slow part of the process....
> 
> For all we know it could be the app itself


 There are already reports of people who have used Mini themselves that the Flash HDUI and Flash apps run much faster, so it's no assumption.


----------



## compnurd

moyekj said:


> There are already reports of people who have used Mini themselves that the Flash HDUI and Flash apps run much faster, so it's no assumption.


What does that have to do with Netflix? Until it is on the Mini we cant compare. Comparison wise, when i launch Netflix from my PS3 then my Tivo the PS3 only starts about 3 seconds faster. The interface flows faster but I am pretty sure the PS3 lets the app cache data


----------



## moyekj

compnurd said:


> What does that have to do with Netflix? Until it is on the Mini we cant compare. Comparison wise, when i launch Netflix from my PS3 then my Tivo the PS3 only starts about 3 seconds faster. The interface flows faster but I am pretty sure the PS3 lets the app cache data


 The HDUI itself is Flash and there are Flash apps such as YouTube you can run on the Mini as well - it's not only Netflix. I'm not talking just launch time, but interaction with the app as well. From what I hear the whole interaction with apps is faster as well on the Mini. I'll be finding out myself first hand soon, though apparently not for Netflix which is the one TiVo app I really care about - don't use YouTube and the like myself. Still, just a faster HDUI would be a good reason to have a Mini for me.


----------



## compnurd

I wont complain about a faster UI but I have not has any issues with the HDUI on my 2 Tuner models. I have a 4 coming today and will compare after 24 hours. Thankfully i dont have to deal with a TA or anything


----------



## Ezberu2y

I had a problem with the Premiere where the Logitech Harmony Remote (which I love) was turning off the TIVO. The Roku doesn't have this problem because it is always on. Does anyone know whether any Logitech Harmony remote turns the power off on the Mini? This is a killer for me. Thanks in advance!


----------



## sangs

Ezberu2y said:


> I had a problem with the Premiere where the Logitech Harmony Remote (which I love) was turning off the TIVO. The Roku doesn't have this problem because it is always on. Does anyone know whether any Logitech Harmony remote turns the power off on the Mini? This is a killer for me. Thanks in advance!


Are you saying you want it to power off (go into Standby, technically) or not want it to power off? Either way, with my Harmony there is a setting in the software which allows you to change the power settings for any device. I have several of mine set to "leave this device powered on" status.


----------



## dianebrat

Ezberu2y said:


> I had a problem with the Premiere where the Logitech Harmony Remote (which I love) was turning off the TIVO. The Roku doesn't have this problem because it is always on. Does anyone know whether any Logitech Harmony remote turns the power off on the Mini? This is a killer for me. Thanks in advance!


There is no way to "turn a Tivo off" all the command can do is put it into standby which mutes the audio/video out.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah you need to fix your Harmony setup. Just go into the TiVo page and set the power option to "this device does not have an on/off button" or whatever it's called. That will prevent the Harmony from turning the TiVo "off". (really just putting it into standby)

Harmonys are nice, but the setup can be a real PITA.


----------



## CharlesH

Dan203 said:


> Yeah you need to fix your Harmony setup. Just go into the TiVo page and set the power option to "this device does not have an on/off button" or whatever it's called. That will prevent the Harmony from turning the TiVo "off". (really just putting it into standby)
> 
> Harmonys are nice, but the setup can be a real PITA.


AFAIK, there is no way to turn a TiVo "off". As mentioned, this usually is converted to "put TiVo into Standby mode", which is actually a reasonable thing to do, since it uses a miniscule less power (turning off outputs), but more importantly, tells the TiVo to ignore the Emergency Alert System forced channel changes. I just let my Harmony do this standby thing, which is the default behavior with TiVos.


----------



## JWhites

I still think that's silly to ignore the EAS alerts. I just wish people would stop putting themselves at risk.


----------



## morac

JWhites said:


> I still think that's silly to ignore the EAS alerts. I just wish people would stop putting themselves at risk.


You don't need to see an EAS alert in a recording from several weeks ago.


----------



## lessd

JWhites said:


> I still think that's silly to ignore the EAS alerts. I just wish people would stop putting themselves at risk.


The problem with the EAS alert is the number of tests, so you begin to not bother even reading that the EAS is a test and ignore all of them, if a real one comes I think many people would just think it another test and ignore the thing, I have never gotten any EAS on an TiVo recording, the test EAS just interrupts the recording I am watching, making me have to go back to the program manually to finish watching, a pain. Does anybody really get the EAS signal into a TiVo recorded program ? as that makes no sense as your are time shifting that program and when you do watch it the EAS, if real, would not mean much.


----------



## morac

lessd said:


> . Does anybody really get the EAS signal into a TiVo recorded program ? as that makes no sense as your are time shifting that program and when you do watch it the EAS, if real, would not mean much.


Yes I have.

There are two kinds of alerts. The older one where the device changes to a different channel to display the that channels video and the newer kind which used OOB data to display a scrolling banner on top of the channel. The former gets embedded in recordings, the later does not.

My cable company still uses the older alert type. Fortunately they run their tests once a month at around 2 am. Also they seem to have stopped running Amber alert EAS messages on TV, which to me never made sense since they really only apply to people out and about, not sitting in their living room. I actually haven't seen an EAS for awhile now. I think the last real one I saw was for a storm from the summer.


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## lessd

morac said:


> Yes I have.
> 
> There are two kinds of alerts. The older one where the device changes to a different channel to display the that channels video and the newer kind which used OOB data to display a scrolling banner on top of the channel. The former gets embedded in recordings, the later does not.
> 
> My cable company still uses the older alert type. Fortunately they run their tests once a month at around 2 am. Also they seem to have stopped running Amber alert EAS messages on TV, which to me never made sense since they really only apply to people out and about, not sitting in their living room. I actually haven't seen an EAS for awhile now. I think the last real one I saw was for a storm from the summer.


I guess Comcast CT has the newer EAS.


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## Bigg

lessd said:


> I guess Comcast CT has the newer EAS.


Older one in Groton. But then again, our system is a crappy also-ran, so it's not surprising that you have a different type than we do.


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## CharlesH

JWhites said:


> I still think that's silly to ignore the EAS alerts. I just wish people would stop putting themselves at risk.


If the TiVo is in standby, nobody is watching it (the outputs are off). Seeing an EAS for a storm happening when the program was recorded a week ago is rather pointless.


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## slowbiscuit

morac said:


> Yes I have.
> 
> There are two kinds of alerts. The older one where the device changes to a different channel to display the that channels video and the newer kind which used OOB data to display a scrolling banner on top of the channel. The former gets embedded in recordings, the later does not.
> 
> My cable company still uses the older alert type. Fortunately they run their tests once a month at around 2 am. Also they seem to have stopped running Amber alert EAS messages on TV, which to me never made sense since they really only apply to people out and about, not sitting in their living room. I actually haven't seen an EAS for awhile now. I think the last real one I saw was for a storm from the summer.


This is the problem I have with the EAS implementation on Tivo - on our Comcast system you get a forced tune every time they feel like doing a test (which often is in the middle/late part of the day here from some unknown reason) and which messes up recordings, and then there are the completely useless amber alerts which just mess things up even more.

EAS alerts are fine if implemented well, but these are terrible.


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