# TiVo = shoddy service, ripoff product



## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

Yeah, I fell for it. I purchased TiVo at Best Buy. Nowhere on the box does it say it's a paid service. I get home to plug in my new DVR and find out I have to pay $12.95 a month or $299 for a 2 year contract.

All I want to do is record shows, it's not like they are providing a service... Unless someone comes to my house to press the record button for me. Ok, so I found out it downloads the user guide from them. That's worth $13 a month.

Tried to get hold of support to get clarification. No email support on the website. You have to phone. The phone wait time on a Sunday, was even worse than the Saturday. 25 minutes +. I gave up!!

Obviously it is a cool product just a pity the company feels they have to decieve their clients in such a way and if their wait times are 25 minutes to call in on a Sunday... I can only imagine if there is a problem.

I took the TiVo back to Best Buy, guess I will just get a DVDR.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Trolling through the park on day.....


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Actually, someone _does_ press the record button for you -

but I guess it's too late now...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

riprod,

Ever bought a cellular phone? And then they make you pay $40 to $100+/mo just to use it!

Ever bought a car for $20,000? Wondered why it wouldn't work? Turns out you have to put $3/gallon of gas in it before it will go anywhere. Not only that, it requires all sorts of maintenance. For $20,000, it should work on its own without costing 15 cents per mile to drive.

Tivo provides a service. There's the hardware -- which they sell at a loss, to make it cheap. Tivo is in business to make a profit, so they recoup this initial loss through the monthly fee. The $12.95/mo pays for all the guide data and all the other information to make the box work, and the infrastructure to store and deliver this information to customers. Information like the program description, the names of the actors and actresses in every program, the genre of the program, whether it is a first-run or repeat episode, what dates and times it is shown in the next two weeks, etc. Tivo also updates their software periodically to add new features.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

He has a point. I justed look at my 540's box. There is one line (only visible on the top) that says: "You'll also need the easy-to-use Tivo service plus your existing phone line or broadband conneciton." That's it.  

I suppose if you didn't know ahead of time how it worked the packaging wouldn't help much. Where were the best buy drones when you needed them.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Try to find a cable company that offers a DVR for free.  They charge you $10 to $20/mo for DVR service and the don't make much effort to improve the operation of the box or the reliability of the data it relies on to record.

DVR service for $12.95/mo is nothing, imo, if you *value your time*. With a Tivo, you "set it and forget it" and the box handles recording of all your programs, regardless of the day and time they are shown, without any ongoing maintenance or effort on your part. It allows you to save 20 minutes of every hour by skipping commercials. If you watch 20 hours of TV per week, that's over 6.5 hours of your time saved.

How much do you make per hour at work? Unless you are an illegal immigrant making less than two bucks an hour, using a Tivo is simply good sense.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

Hmmm, I bought a car once. Nowhere on it does it say I have to PAY for gas. I got ripped off too. 

All I want to do is drive somewhere, it's not like the car manufaturer is providing a service... Unless someone comes to my house and drives the car and pays for the gas for me. Ok, so I found out it rolls down the road without gas, but it keeps stopping. That's worth something, I guess, maybe $13 a month. But it was a Sunday. I had to call for a tow truck to get me to the gas station. It took them an hour to get to me, then I had to wait for them to pull the car to the gas station. And then I had to pay for gas.

What is happening to this world?


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

Yeah, sorry for the rant but I stand by it.

It should have a big sign on the box that says (paid service required). I know you make calls on a cell phone, so you expect to pay for a service. I can't figure out what service TiVo provides. You are not accessing TV through them. They give you a guide and that is about it, otherwise it is just a VCR with a hard disk.

Am I wrong ?

And you cannot tell me they lose money on TiVo boxes. Those are made in China for about $10 a pop. DVDs and VCRs sell for $50, there is no difference. Besides I would rather they charge double the price up front, instead of trying to hide costs in a contract.

OH and now that I think about it... when I got the Honda it should have had a sign saying "gas sold seperatly". I'm going to their forum next


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

riprod said:


> And you cannot tell me they lose money on TiVo boxes.


They lose money on TiVo boxes.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

riprod said:


> And you cannot tell me they lose money on TiVo boxes. Those are made in China for about $10 a pop.


Anybody know where the S3 is going to be manufactured? He has gotten my hopes up now.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> They lose money on TiVo boxes.


Uh-oh, better duck, you told him.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

riprod said:


> Yeah, I fell for it. I purchased TiVo at Best Buy. Nowhere on the box does it say it's a paid service. I get home to plug in my new DVR and find out I have to pay $12.95 a month or $299 for a 2 year contract.


And with about 20 seconds worth of due diligence, you could have discovered this in advance. Your problem, not ours.


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## stantonl (Jun 22, 2004)

Why do people buy things without doing any research on them. It's funny to me that you are upset because you didn't research the product and now are upset that they didn't tell you that there was a sub..


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

stantonl said:


> Why do people buy things without doing any research on them. It's funny to me that you are upset because you didn't research the product and now are upset that they didn't tell you that there was a sub..


Goodness, you think there's much personal responsibility left here?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> He has a point. I justed look at my 540's box. There is one line (only visible on the top) that says: "You'll also need the easy-to-use Tivo service plus your existing phone line or broadband conneciton." That's it.
> 
> I suppose if you didn't know ahead of time how it worked the packaging wouldn't help much. Where were the best buy drones when you needed them.


Because you wouldn't see the notice when you picked up the box?

And every Besy Buy ad I've seen for TiVo does state that the service is seperate and requires a phone line (or now) broadband connection.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

Yes it was my fault for not researching it. 

BUT I'm not complaining about having to pay for a service... if there is a service being performed. Which as far as I can tell, there is not. Anyone know what service they perform for the $13?? It's not the season passes etc. That's in the software. 

I'm complaining that they don't tell you that you are required to pay for service, when you buy the box, you only find out when you get home and open the box and get 1/2 way through installation.

Hey, I'm all for personal responsibility but it sounds to me that a lot of people are being duped by deceptive branding and charged monthly a service fee for buying a product (which I guarentee you they do not make a loss on!). What about corporate responsibility?

And for 13 bucks a month you would, at the very least, expect that they answer the phones in less than 30 minutes.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

riprod said:


> Yes it was my fault for not researching it.
> 
> BUT I'm not complaining about having to pay for a service... if there is a service being performed. Which as far as I can tell, there is not. Anyone know what service they perform for the $13?? It's not the season passes etc. That's in the software.
> 
> ...


my friend, if you can't figure out these rather obvious answers, you are an idiot.


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## deezel629 (May 30, 2006)

riprod said:


> Hey, I'm all for personal responsibility but it sounds to me that a lot of people are being duped by deceptive branding and charged monthly a service fee for buying a product (which I guarentee you they do not make a loss on!). What about corporate responsibility?


Actually, you are the first person I know of that bought a TiVo and didn't know there's a monthly fee.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

riprod said:


> ...And for 13 bucks a month you would, at the very least, expect that they answer the phones in less than 30 minutes.


I supposed I'd LIKE them to answer the phones sooner, but I certainly don't expect that to happen. Goodness, for $75 a month, my cable company should answer before I even dial the phone.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Because you wouldn't see the notice when you picked up the box?


"You'll also need the easy-to-use Tivo service plus your existing phone line or broadband conneciton." Knowing anything at all about Tivo, this statement is probably enough. But if you were like the OP and didn't, then I think it is lacking. Shouldn't there be an asterisk or something that says the "easy-to-use Tivo service" includes a monthly fee?

Jast saying...


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> BUT I'm not complaining about having to pay for a service... if there is a service being performed. Which as far as I can tell, there is not. Anyone know what service they perform for the $13?? It's not the season passes etc. That's in the software.


Once again, the guide data is a service. You think all that guide data just materializes out of nowhere? You think the bandwidth to deliver that guide data to millions of customers is free? Where do you think the box gets guide data if you don't have a broadband connection? It connects to the Internet through a local Internet server provider whom Tivo pays.

Your comparison to DVD players is ludicrous. Do DVD players have hard drives? No. Do DVD players have cable tuners? No. Do DVD players have dual analog->digital MPEG-2 encoders? No. Do DVD players have functional USB ports? Do DVD players support networking? Do DVD players have built-in 56k modems? Do DVD players have 32-64Mb memory? No. Do DVD players have or need 200-300MHz CPUs? No. Do DVD players need to support encrypting of content? No.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

hey Mikeyis4dcats, you sound like you work for TiVo... so what service do they provide for $13 ??

I would rather you think me an idiot than a sheep. Seems a lot of people are forking over monthly fee and nobody seams to know what it's for.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

Rantrod, Riprod, Dumbrod (oh wait that's mine). If you're going to keep trolling, at least have some originality when coming up with a new name. 

wait for it.....




NailedRod


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

bkdtv said:


> Once again, the guide data is a service. You think all that guide data just materializes out of nowhere? You think the bandwidth to deliver that guide data to millions of customers is free? Where do you think the box gets guide data if you don't have a broadband connection? It connects to the Internet through a local Internet server provider whom Tivo pays.


He may have been under the (mistaken) assumption that the $ he laid down at best buy was paying for this service. Seems like an honest mistake. One that could have been easily avoided though.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

riprod said:


> (which I guarentee you they do not make a loss on!)


What form does this "guarentee" (sic) take? What do we get when we prove you wrong? Will you apologize to everyone on the board and to TiVo Inc. for being a troll and go away and never come back?


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

The guide data comes from the cable / sat companies. TiVo don't have 1000 people retyping from TV Guide Magazine.

But yes, I think the bandwidth to send that out is relevant, But $13 a month. Seams like a lot. I would expect to pay $2 or $3 a month for that.

I have just found out elsewhere that you can use the TiVo without the service contract. It works like a VCR and you still get the guide but you can't do season passes or connect it to your PC. Had I known that earlier, I would have kept it. But that said, you are not paying for a service, you are paying for functionality. Big Difference.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

riprod said:


> BUT I'm not complaining about having to pay for a service... if there is a service being performed. Which as far as I can tell, there is not. Anyone know what service they perform for the $13?? It's not the season passes etc. That's in the software.


I'm suprised you managed to find these forums, but somehow couldn't find TiVo's web site since it lists on there what features you get. A number of features like online scheduling and online services are housed on TiVo's servers. This in addition to the daily connections to retrieve guide data for your TiVo is what your service gets you. The guide data comes from Tribune (which TiVo pays a fee to).

Also as for the box costing $10 to make. The TiVo is basically a computer. If you can find a computer that costs less than the cost of a TiVo then you should get that. For $100 you could either get a hand cracked powered computer (if you are a 3rd world child) or you could get a 80 hour dual tuner TiVo at Best Buy (after rebate). Or you could get a free 40 hour single tuner TiVo box TiVos web site. So yes, TiVo loses money for each TiVo they sell; without the service fee TiVo would be bankrupt.


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## etemple (Oct 26, 2003)

but they do provide services--lots of them.
they're called:

season passes
wish lists
suggestions
tivo to go
multi-room viewing
remote programming
home media 
. . .


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

OK, try this with your VCR:

I want to record every episode of this series, even after it moves from Sundays to Tuesdays and I'm not paying any attention.

Got any Hitchcock movies? Record any of those that come on.

I like CSI and Law & Order. Find similar programs and record them for me. Wait, don't record them -- just point them out to me and let me decide whether to record them.

Podcast streaming?


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

greg_burns said:


> "You'll also need the easy-to-use Tivo service plus your existing phone line or broadband conneciton." Knowing anything at all about Tivo, this statement is probably enough. But if you were like the OP and didn't, then I think it is lacking. Shouldn't there be an asterisk or something that says the "easy-to-use Tivo service" includes a monthly fee?
> 
> Jast saying...


Now admittedly I got my Series 2 last year but below that line in black letters it says "The TiVo service is easy to activate and is available for a low monthly fee or a one-time product lifetime subscription."


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

:up:


Mikeyis4dcats said:


> my friend, if you can't figure out these rather obvious answers, you are an idiot.


<applause>


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

greg_burns said:


> He may have been under the (mistaken) assumption that the $ he laid down at best buy was paying for this service. Seems like an honest mistake. One that could have been easily avoided though.


And when he discovered the mistake, he took the box back and got a refund. End of story. But wait! Then he felt compelled to come onto a TiVo forum and tell a bunch of TiVo users that it's a shoddy service and a ripoff product. Maybe he really is as dumb as some of the other posts suggest. Or maybe he has another motive. Gee, I can't for the life of me imagine what that might be. But let's wait and see if it has anything to do with Bullwinkle, shall we?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Now admittedly I got my Series 2 last year but below that line in black letters it says "The TiVo service is easy to activate and is available for a low monthly fee or a one-time product lifetime subscription."












Dang, I need a better camera.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> And when he discovered the mistake, he took the box back and got a refund. End of story. But wait! Then he felt compelled to come onto a TiVo forum and tell a bunch of TiVo users that it's a shoddy service and a ripoff product. Maybe he really is as dumb as some of the other posts suggest. Or maybe he has another motive. Gee, I can't for the life of me imagine what that might be. But let's wait and see if it has anything to do with Bullwinkle, shall we?


I make no apologies for his posts. Just saying, his original complaint has merit.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> he guide data comes from the cable / sat companies. TiVo don't have 1000 people retyping from TV Guide Magazine.


No, the data doesn't come from cable / satellite providers. It comes from a pay data service -- cable and satellite companies also pay for it, it's part of the cost of digital cable / satellite service. And yes, Tivo has employees adding to the guide data.

If you've ever spent any time actually using the Tivo, you would know that the information they provide -- which the box's recording features depend on -- far exceeds that provided by most cable and satellite companies. One of the reasons why Tivo is so much more reliable than competing DVRs, in terms of recording the right programs at the right time, is because Tivo puts so much effort into getting their guide data correct.

When program information from the data service is wrong or incomplete, as it often is, Tivo works to fix it (manually) on their end when they can. When they can't, because there is some error or change discovered at the last minute, they send customers who watch those programs a "mail" to their box which notifies them of the issue.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

riprod said:


> The guide data comes from the cable / sat companies. TiVo don't have 1000 people retyping from TV Guide Magazine.


DirecTV AFAIK gets their data from Tribune Media Services, competitor to TV Guide. TMS is the provider of data to Replay, TiVo, and many "tv guides" that come in newspapers. Somone has to pay for that.

Given the prices that TiVos sell for after rebates, do you think TiVo could stay in business charging $0-3/month? Here was their last earnings release http://a423.g.akamai.net/7/423/1788...vo.com/cms_files/pdfs/press/Q1Earnings_94.pdf. If I remember correctly, they've only turned a profit a single quarter since they've been around.

Someone has to pay for maintaining the servers, updating the software, fixing bugs, adding new features, marketing and the actual cost of the box. This is mostly recouped thru subscription fees.

If you didn't want to pay a monthly fee, you should've either gotten a lifetime sub before they got rid of it or looked for lifetime gift cards for sale on Ebay or looked for a used TiVo w/lifetime already on it. You can also enter monthly to win a free one w/free lifetime sub at http://www.tivo.com/0.1.asp.

if you don't think TiVo provides any "service", go unplug your TiVo from the phone line/broadband connection for a two weeks and see the result.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

The features are fantastic but the one's that I would use are part of the hardware you buy. I don't expect to pay to enable them. I think that's deceptive.

Anyway, it sounds like I insulted someone's baby here, by questioning these fees. So I'll get out of here. Thanks anyway.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

riprod said:


> I have just found out elsewhere that you can use the TiVo without the service contract. It works like a VCR and you still get the guide but you can't do season passes or connect it to your PC. Had I known that earlier, I would have kept it.


I believe that is called Tivo Basic Service and is *only* available on the DVD units.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> The features are fantastic but the one's that I would use are part of the hardware you buy. I don't expect to pay to enable them. I think that's deceptive.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like I insulted someone's baby here, by questioning these fees. So I'll get out of here. Thanks anyway.


It's unfortunate you didn't even give the box a try for a month (or 29 days) before returning it. I think if you had, you would have seen value in the service. It's hard to see value in something you've never had / used.

I think just about every male on this board will attest that a DVR improves relations with the significant other.  For many women I've met, the second they hear you use a Tivo, or see one below your TV, your stock goes up a few points. If you have a DVR, it means you care about your time, and if you have a Tivo, it means -- more often than not -- that you manage your time wisely, and aren't a slave to the tube. Hence, more time to spend with them, or doing chores around the house. 

I'll suggest again that $12.99/mo is a very small price to pay to effectively manage your time in front of the tube, saving you both time and money.


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

riprod said:


> The features are fantastic but the one's that I would use are part of the hardware you buy. I don't expect to pay to enable them. I think that's deceptive.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like I insulted someone's baby here, by questioning these fees. So I'll get out of here. Thanks anyway.


Awww...man, what an idiot. Hope he doesn't go out an buy a cellphone now, or a satellite radio receiver, or... But he's gone.


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## ort (Jan 5, 2004)

I can't believe someone would buy something as big as a DVR without doing *any* research on it all. It just sounds completely crazy to me.

Oh, look honey, a Tee-Voh, throw it in the cart and we'll take it home. Grab some of those DVDs and a camera too.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

ort said:


> I can't believe someone would buy something as big as a DVR without doing *any* research on it all. It just sounds completely crazy to me.


That's because it's not true. This same guy came on as Rantrod before with a couple of threads with a whole list of complaints, then dodged questions when people pressed him on specifics or tried to help him. Reading this guy's posts, there's not a doubt in my mind that it is the same guy. 
He'll be back again under a different name. (although it probably won't include rod since I called him on that)


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

Rosincrans said:


> That's because it's not true. This same guy came on as Rantrod before with a couple of threads with a whole list of complaints, then dodged questions when people pressed him on specifics or tried to help him.


What a terrible waste of time.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

> That's because it's not true. This same guy came on as Rantrod before with a couple of threads with a whole list of complaints, then dodged questions when people pressed him on specifics or tried to help him. Reading this guy's posts, there's not a doubt in my mind that it is the same guy.


Sorry guys but I must respond. Whether you beleive me or not doesn't matter but NO, I have never been on this forum before. The name riprod, is the name I use on all forums. It is named after a character called "Dash Riprod" from a old 90's Mac game called "Terminal Velocity".

I wrote the initial message because I was pissed that I could not get anyone on the phone, could not email support... otherwise the message would have gone directly to TiVo and not on this forum.


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## Billyh1026 (May 21, 2006)

Can't you just use a Tivo box for manual recordings without activating the Tivo service? Just record by channel, time, and date. Or does the box actually have to d/l the channel listing first. I seem to remember that you didn't really need to register at all for manual recordings. Correct me if I'm wrong tho...


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Sigh. No offense but I'll never understand how someone misses the fact that TiVo requires a paid subscription. I simply don't know how you don't know that.

But if you come into a TiVo user forum guns a' blazing complaining about not knowing this and condemming TiVo all to hell for it, you should expect to get a lot of heat for it.

If not...I don't know what to tell you. 

Shoddy service? Ripoff product? 

User error.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

What exactly were you planning on telling customer service?


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

Billyh1026 said:


> Can't you just use a Tivo box for manual recordings without activating the Tivo service? Just record by channel, time, and date. Or does the box actually have to d/l the channel listing first. I seem to remember that you didn't really need to register at all for manual recordings. Correct me if I'm wrong tho...


This is TiVo "Basic" service. Far as I know it's only available on certain units, like DVD TiVos and the Series1. It's hard to say when you've never used a TiVo without service though. :up:


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

I have not thought the service provided for $13.00 a month is worth it. Has not been in some time. Guide data is simply not that expensive. You do get software upgrades for that, but even when they stop upgrading your unit, they will still happily charge you the $13.00 a month.

Frankly TiVo has never been good with their pricing model.

It is unfortunate that you bought the device without realizing there was an additional cost. You should return it for a refund if you are unhappy with it.

If it were for Directv receivers I have, and a couple of lifetimed older units, I would not pay $13.00 a month for the service offered, it is not worth it.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

Well, they do need ongoing funds to continue operations of the company. To just sell boxes is obviously not the solution. To make use of a superior DVR interface along with the guide data and updates, I think the pricing is reasonable.


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## ac3dd (Mar 2, 2002)

HomieG said:


> Hmmm, I bought a car once. Nowhere on it does it say I have to PAY for gas. I got ripped off too.
> 
> All I want to do is drive somewhere, it's not like the car manufaturer is providing a service... Unless someone comes to my house and drives the car and pays for the gas for me. Ok, so I found out it rolls down the road without gas, but it keeps stopping. That's worth something, I guess, maybe $13 a month. But it was a Sunday. I had to call for a tow truck to get me to the gas station. It took them an hour to get to me, then I had to wait for them to pull the car to the gas station. And then I had to pay for gas.
> 
> What is happening to this world?


Bad analogy. Anybody who buys an appliance expects to pay for the electricity to make it run. This is more akin to buying a car and finding out that the car won't move unless you pay for a data feed for its GPS.

After all, a VCR can record without any ongoing service (other than electricity), and a CD player can play music without an additional service, so it is not a logical expectation to even check the box for the requirement of such a service. Did you check the fine print of the box of the last MP3 player or toaster or printer or monitor or keyboard that you bought to find out if it needed you to pay for ongoing service?

TiVo needs to get out of the hardware business altogether, and partner with the cable and satellite companies to include TiVo functionality in their boxes. Such functionality can be added to those boxes at minimal cost compared to manufactuaring a whole box just for TiVo. That's the only way it will become cheap enough for the masses to accept it and cheap enough for TiVo so they can cut their expenses enough to make a profit.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

ac3dd said:


> TiVo needs to get out of the hardware business altogether, and partner with the cable and satellite companies to include TiVo functionality in their boxes.


Obviously some potentially key companies will not agree to such partnerships...


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

maki said:


> Obviously some potentially key companies will not agree to such partnerships...


They may have no choice.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

riprod said:


> I have just found out elsewhere that you can use the TiVo without the service contract. It works like a VCR and you still get the guide but you can't do season passes or connect it to your PC. Had I known that earlier, I would have kept it. But that said, you are not paying for a service, you are paying for functionality. Big Difference.


 This is for the DVD Recorder with TiVo. or the pre 2002? S1 TiVos.

The software is the service, you can have Podcasts and Radio Stations( Live365), play your own MP3 Music and view your pictures on your TiVo. Plus other things with the $12.95/$6.95...cost of the service


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

ac3dd said:


> Bad analogy. Anybody who buys an appliance expects to pay for the electricity to make it run. This is more akin to buying a car and finding out that the car won't move unless you pay for a data feed for its GPS.
> 
> After all, a VCR can record without any ongoing service (other than electricity), and a CD player can play music without an additional service, so it is not a logical expectation to even check the box for the requirement of such a service. Did you check the fine print of the box of the last MP3 player or toaster or printer or monitor or keyboard that you bought to find out if it needed you to pay for ongoing service?
> 
> TiVo needs to get out of the hardware business altogether, and partner with the cable and satellite companies to include TiVo functionality in their boxes. Such functionality can be added to those boxes at minimal cost compared to manufactuaring a whole box just for TiVo. That's the only way it will become cheap enough for the masses to accept it and cheap enough for TiVo so they can cut their expenses enough to make a profit.


It was an attempt at some parody my friend


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

greg_burns said:


> Dang, I need a better camera.


I dunno about that.

It says

_*You'll also need the easy-to-use TiVo service plus your existing phone line or broadband connection.

You'll need to activate and connect to the TiVo service through your existing phone line or via your existing wired/wireless home network and broadband connection. You'll get all of the exclusive TiVo features like WishList, searches, Season Pass recordings and Home Media features, including Digital Music, Digital Photos and TiVoToGo. Your TiVo box will never interfere with your phone service or internet connection. Only TiVo works with any TV source- cable, digital cable, satellite, antenna, even combinations.*_

Your point that the box in question does NOT say

_"The TiVo service is easy to activate and is available for a low monthly fee or a one-time product lifetime subscription."_

is a valid one.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Yeah, I'm amazed that nowhere in that text above is there any mention of a fee. Ridiculous. I can easily see people buying it thinking there is no sub fee.

To the OP: don't antagonize people in any "enthusiast forum". It will never pay off. And don't tell them they are "ripped off" just because you made a mistake.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Even my Wife knew That TiVo was a paid subscription. She still complains about that every now and then till I mention that getting a DVR from the cable company would mean getting the digital tier and then the set top box etc... Costs a lot more to do that if you do not want the digital channels.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Even my Wife knew That TiVo was a paid subscription. She still complains about that every now and then till I mention that getting a DVR from the cable company would mean getting the digital tier and then the set top box etc... Costs a lot more to do that if you do not want the digital channels.


To some extent your wife has a point, tho'.

Over the years we've had VCRs coming out of our ears that we set up the program for ourselves, and they worked without a subscription. A one time purchase, end of discussion.

Aside from TiVo, it's hard to FIND a hard drive recorder that you can actually purchase, let alone one that you can use without having to pay a subscription fee for.

Earlier in the thread, the valid point was made that you don't usually purchase a product and expect that you'll never be done paying for it. You expect things to work once you've bought them.

Another example....what if our TVs came with a purchase price, but also required a monthly fee or they wouldn't work? People just don't expect that, and as digital climbs up over the horizon and VCRs sink into memory, there really should be TiVo type devices made that you can buy once, and have work until they just plain die, even if they don't have the "bells and whistles" of the TiVo service.

Any companies that have made such machines don't seen to KEEP making them, tho'.

Hopefully that'll change.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> Another example....what if our TVs came with a purchase price, but also required a monthly fee or they wouldn't work?


Aside from broadcast tv, that is certainly the case. As others have mentioned in the thread, there are plenty of products that simply won't work without a monthly fee -- satellite radio, cell phone service, all sorts of Internet-dependant products, banking services, and various software subscriptions (one-year licenses requiring renewals). Most of our economy's growth is in services -- so expect this trend to continue.



> there really should be TiVo type devices made that you can buy once, and have work until they just plain die, even if they don't have the "bells and whistles" of the TiVo service.


Unfortunately, a Tivo-type functionality requires Tivo-type guide data, which you can't get for free from a commercial product. Moreover, software development is expensive -- companies don't like selling you one box without a monthly fee at a reasonable price.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

gastrof said:


> People just don't expect that, and as digital climbs up over the horizon and VCRs sink into memory, there really should be TiVo type devices made that you can buy once, and have work until they just plain die, even if they don't have the "bells and whistles" of the TiVo service.
> 
> Any companies that have made such machines don't seen to KEEP making them, tho'.
> 
> Hopefully that'll change.


I was going to reply saying there are such products but after looking into them I find that they are actually quite expensive and even include service fees.

Take the LG DVR: $600 MSRP plus Microsoft's $10/month guide data.

I thought Sony also had a similar product awhile ago but all I can seem to find is this "DVD HDD combo": $700 direct.

So I guess so far DVRs haven't taken the position of a VCR in retail but these competitors certainly make the TiVo seem a little bit more affordable, or at least worth the cost.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> I thought Sony also had a similar product awhile ago but all I can seem to find is this "DVD HDD combo": $700 direct.


Sony's product, now discontinued (wasn't profitable), didn't require a subscription. It relied on the limited TVGuide data broadcast by PBS stations, so recording functionality was limited, i.e. digital VCR-like operation.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

gastrof said:


> there really should be TiVo type devices made that you can buy once, and have work until they just plain die


Yeah, I wish there was some kind of "lifetime" subscription for TiVo, that let you have the service for as long as the product worked...


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, I wish there was some kind of "lifetime" subscription for TiVo, that let you have the service for as long as the product worked...


But you can't have that because some persons who purchase it then believe they are entitled to service for _their_ lifetime, and don't seem to attach the service to the unit.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

maki said:


> I was going to reply saying there are such products but after looking into them I find that they are actually quite expensive and even include service fees.
> 
> Take the LG DVR: $600 MSRP plus Microsoft's $10/month guide data.


When nobody bought the LG DVR product after it was launched, LG DROPPED the guide fee (reference LRM-519 Microsoft Program Guide), but of course the LG DVR still isn't selling.

I haven't checked on it in sometime; are they still selling the LG DVR (LRM-519)? 

The www.microsoftprogramguide.com URL no longer works as referenced on the LG LRM-519 site!

Another failed Microsoft product (reference UltimateTV).

I hate to say it, but IMHO it appears that Microsoft doesn't have the staying power to launch a new product if it doesn't make a profit immediately. Microsoft starts so many products and fails to follow through or stick with it long enough to generate a profit.

If TiVo had done that, none of us would have a DVR today.


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Thanks to the pictures Greg posted, it should be quite obvious that the OP had a legitimate gripe.
To those of you complaining that the OP didn't adequately research TiVo before buying one, I have to ask, wouldn't you all prefer it if TiVo were something so affordable and appealing that people might walk into an electronics store for the latest Britney Spears album, realize that season 18 of The Simple Life starts next week, and that they sure don't want to miss the crazy highjinks that girl Paris gets herself into, so they'd better get one of those TiVo thingies that will FINALLY make it possible to see every moment of that super-awesome show since whenever it's on your BFF always seems to need you on the phone because she's in the middle of some crisis with her boyfriend?

Whoa, sorry, goofy analogy ran on a little too long, but you get my point. It would be good for TiVo if people picked them up like they do the $40 DVD player that they stick in the guestroom to take care of the 2 times a year that somebody might want to use it.

TiVo's hardware prices are so low now that they aren't far off from that. It isn't like the old days when most of us had to sit down and really think about whether a "$600 VCR" that could only hold about 20 hours of watchable programming was worth buying or not, and if so whether we wanted to sign on with Replay or TiVo.

Imagine if you picked up one of those shiny new Coby DVD players on Black Friday for $25 only to get home and find out it needs a proprietary power cable that the manufacturer sells for a "very affordable" $15?


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

Something radical would need to happen in order to have TiVos flying off shelves. Even if you eliminate the service fee and drop the price of the box, they're going to need to run some ads (another challenge...) or something to promote themselves. It's also probably a turn off to customers that there is only TiVos on the shelves - whereas there's dozens of DVD players and VCRs to choose from.


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## MatrixOutsider (Mar 7, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> They lose money on TiVo boxes.


Probably not on the boxes themselves if they make a gross profit on them. However, deduct expenses and it turns into a net loss.
Anyone have the Tivo financial statements in front of him/her?


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## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

Who's talking stuff about My Tivo!!!....Man was it cold in here the first couple of pages! I had to go get a jacket!


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

tubsone said:


> Who's talking stuff about My Tivo!!!....Man was it cold in here the first couple of pages! I had to go get a jacket!


I agree - quite a shock to see everyone turning on TiVo!


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## ac3dd (Mar 2, 2002)

In another thread I mentioned an old Series 1 standalone TiVo that I am going to revive. I actually tried to give it away and couldn't. Typical response: "we hardly record anything, so we don't need it." They think of it as a VCR, and since they hardly record anything to VCR, they think they'll hardly record anything to TiVo.

They don't realize the motivation for recording is different. When I had a VCR, I only recorded something that I wanted to keep for a long time. When I got TiVo, I recorded something Tuesday afternoon to watch it Wednesday night and then delete it.

TiVo needs more ways to quietly get into homes and gain "mind share". Get TiVo built in as an additional feature in cable boxes, satellite boxes, DVD recorders and players, HDTVs and HD tuner boxes, even computers. And once having gained that mindshare, they need to provide the service at less than $13/month. Even I, with my years of TiVo-using experience wouldn't pay $13/month for it (I got lifetime on my TiVos while I still could), with the other cheaper alternatives available.

The standalone TiVo box will continue to remain a niche product, and will not be sufficient to bring them to profitability.

It sounds like some of us are turning on TiVo, but it's not that we hate them, it's that we want them to stay in business and are concerned about their consumer-unfriendly and unprofitable business model.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

I'm back. Thank you for the very constuctive responses. It is a far cry from the name calling on the first page.

I appologise for saying it was a ripoff product but the customer service does suck.

On the $13. If the unit is basically a PC. Then the online scheuling, itunes intergration, season passes, and everything else is (or could be) housed within the hardware / software you buy, so is not a service. Therefor you are paying $13 a month for guide data. That is way overpriced.

Asking why I didn't research it. I went in to buy a DVDR. Saw the Tivo, which is in a yellow box and did not have one word about a service fee or contract required. I read the entire box before buying it and I had heard alot about it and it looked (and is) very cool... so I got it. 

Anyway, after researching the TiVo since yesterday. I think I'm going to go back and get it and I will pay the fee even though I think it is a lot for the actual service they provide.

I hear Apple is going to offer movie rental on iTunes in a month or two. Rumours are that Apple will have it's own TiVo type software or even hardware very soon and I'm willing to bet they don't charge a $13 monthly fee for it.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

I thought they sold DVDR's with hard drives built in. Sort of a (very) stupid TiVo interface.

The Humax DVD-R's you can still lifetime (only units you can).

Some of the other DVD units come with TiVo Basic, which is what you want. THree days of guide data, zero fee.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MatrixOutsider said:


> Probably not on the boxes themselves if they make a gross profit on them. However, deduct expenses and it turns into a net loss.
> Anyone have the Tivo financial statements in front of him/her?


Yes.


```
(in thousands)
For Q1:                                 2006                             2005
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware revenues                       9,453                           10,526 	 
Cost of hardware revenues              15,146                           15,642
```
You do the math. These figures do not include rebates, which increase the loss substantially (about $8 million this year and about $3 million last year). Not included above are things like marketing, R&D, or general corporate costs.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

riprod said:


> I hear Apple is going to offer movie rental on iTunes in a month or two. Rumours are that Apple will have it's own TiVo type software or even hardware very soon and I'm willing to bet they don't charge a $13 monthly fee for it.


If they stick to their iPod model, they'll probably charge per recording.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, I'm amazed that nowhere in that text above is there any mention of a fee. Ridiculous. I can easily see people buying it thinking there is no sub fee.


I have to agree with this. Especially since there are other products that require activation (Slingbox comes to mind) that do not have a monthly fee. You would think there would be text somewhere that said monthly service fee required unless TiVo doesn't want you to know that until you buy it and count on you getting hooked and paying the fee any way.

That said TiVo has been out how many years now? I would think this would be common knowledge now. Even if it is not, researching on the TiVo website will let you know there is a service fee (though they hide this info in the FAQ and not on the purchase page).


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

riprod said:


> Anyway, after researching the TiVo since yesterday. I think I'm going to go back and get it and I will pay the fee even though I think it is a lot for the actual service they provide.


That sounds good. Go back and get it, hook it up to the Internet and your computer, and utilize all of it's features. As long as you give it a chance, I guarantee you'll be back here in a month or two wondering how you ever managed to get along without this device. TiVo has evolved a lot since I bought my first one in 1999. It was good back then but not nearly as advanced as it is now. Enjoy!


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

morac said:


> That said TiVo has been out how many years now? I would think this would be common knowledge now. Even if it is not, researching on the TiVo website will let you know there is a service fee (though they hide this info in the FAQ and not on the purchase page).


Plenty of people I've met don't even know what a TiVo is let alone that it has a monthly fee.


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

riprod said:


> Yes it was my fault for not researching it.
> 
> BUT I'm not complaining about having to pay for a service... if there is a service being performed. Which as far as I can tell, there is not. Anyone know what service they perform for the $13?? It's not the season passes etc. That's in the software.
> 
> ...


Had you ever heard of TiVo before wandering into Best Buy?


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

maki said:


> Billyh1026 said:
> 
> 
> > Can't you just use a Tivo box for manual recordings without activating the Tivo service? Just record by channel, time, and date. Or does the box actually have to d/l the channel listing first. I seem to remember that you didn't really need to register at all for manual recordings. Correct me if I'm wrong tho...
> ...


TiVo basic is available on some Tivos w/DVD recorders, but not all. Most of the old S1 machines can be used w/o a subscription to record by time and channel depending on when they were manufactured, but that is not Tivo basic. Tivo basic includes some guide data, while the S1 tivos can operate w/o any.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Wasn't there a very similar thread by a "cluess" newbie to Tivo that about a month ago? I can't find it now (I can only see threads back about 2 weeks or so, and the newest archive only goes until the end of 2005).

This really smells like the same guy, I think the username was a similar "double R" kind of a name, ramrod, or something like that. He had trouble hooking it up, then had trouble getting it to work on a network.

Does anyone else remember this, or am I crazy?

riprod, if that wasn't you, I'm sorry, and that's probably why you got some name calling at first. The guy I'm thinking of was a real a-hole and deserved it. If it was, people posting here under multiple accounts is frowned on by the management, and is likely to get you banned.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Does anyone else remember this, or am I crazy?


You're not the only one to see a similarity.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4292931&&#post4292931


Rosincrans said:


> This same guy came on as Rantrod...


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4292972&&#post4292972


riprod said:


> Sorry guys but I must respond. Whether you beleive me or not doesn't matter but NO, I have never been on this forum before.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

OK, so I'm not crazy, I just can't read...  

I skimmed the thread looking to see if anyone had already made the point, but obviously I skimmed too fast...


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## RavenFan (Oct 3, 2002)

MickeS said:


> To the OP: don't antagonize people in any "enthusiast forum". It will never pay off. And don't tell them they are "ripped off" just because you made a mistake.


I don't believe that is is even possible to get ripped-off by purchasing the hardware and subscribing to the TiVo service.

You can always return the hardware within the first month of the purchase. You also have a choice to make in subscribing to the service. Anyone who purchases the hardware and subscribes (paying $13 a month) has already made the decision that the service is worth at least $13 to them. You just have to love how the free market works.

(And _shhh_, don't tell anyone, but I would even be willing to pay more than $13 monthly because I value the service and my free time.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

riprod said:


> Anyway, after researching the TiVo since yesterday. I think I'm going to go back and get it and I will pay the fee even though I think it is a lot for the actual service they provide.
> 
> I hear Apple is going to offer movie rental on iTunes in a month or two. Rumours are that Apple will have it's own TiVo type software or even hardware very soon and I'm willing to bet they don't charge a $13 monthly fee for it.


welcome back to the TiVolution 

the really cool rumor is that TiVo is working with Apple on an HME app that will let you watch the iTunes video and movies rightg on the TiVo. You still have to give apple its money of course.

So this is really what the subscription fee is about to my way of thinking. TiVo inc. keeps adding features to the TiVo DVR. When I bought my Series 2, HMO was priced at 99$ a box, there was no TiVoToGo or HME , TiVoToComeBack No Yahoo integration, etc..

Now all of that is included in the subscription and has greatly increased the value of the TiVo box and as I noted, TiVo is not stopping but looking to keep on adding value to the above.

Find any box out there that does half of that. Find any box out there that does just the simple record and play shows part of the DVR for less than 600$. Frankly with how fast tech changes I would rather pay 50 or 99$ upfront and then 13 or 7 a month over time since it will take some time to get to 600$

or if you don't like that then get the DVR from your cable /sat provider but note the pace of advancing their feature set is FAR slower and still you pay a boatload of money to the cable /sat provider for the total package.

so complain away but point out who has made a better business model work


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

riprod said:


> I hear Apple is going to offer movie rental on iTunes in a month or two. Rumours are that Apple will have it's own TiVo type software or even hardware very soon and I'm willing to bet they don't charge a $13 monthly fee for it.


This has been discussed extensively elsewhere in the forum, and I don't think anyone has come up with any reason why Apple would offer a DVR - let alone one without any service fee. They are in the content delivery business to make money, which they currently do by selling shows and songs in iTMS.

This rumour is going on, what, two years now?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I don't think anyone has come up with any reason why Apple would offer a DVR - let alone one without any service fee. They are in the content delivery business to make money, which they currently do by selling shows and songs in iTMS.


I don't know about an actual DVR from Apple, but they could use additional sales/rental strategies to expand their content delivery business. A Vongo type player/subscription service through iTunes would be good for them. If they did offer a DVR, it might well be without subscription precisely because they are in the content delivery business; whether they'd subsidize the hardware or charge $600(?) for the DVR I dunno.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> I don't know about an actual DVR from Apple, but they could use additional sales/rental strategies to expand their content delivery business. A Vongo type player/subscription service through iTunes would be good for them. If they did offer a DVR, it might well be without subscription precisely because they are in the content delivery business; whether they'd subsidize the hardware or charge $600(?) for the DVR I dunno.


making a MAC mini easy to hook up to a TV (composite, Svideo, component, HDMI) and then you download content to it would make more sense. Commercial free really a-la-carte and who cares if the final 4 episodes do not air - or maybe the show just goes off the schedule and continues on pay per episode.

Apple has a real tiger by the tail with iTunes. Worrying about DVR hardware almost seems silly for them now. BUt letting the Mac do downloading and playing video in the background while you use the PC for web surfing and email etc.. could be a real killer product.

I am still not buying in at 1.99 an episode myself but a just released to DVD movie in the original DVD edit I would be fine to spring 1.99 a viewing for on my TiVo or some PC to TV hookup. Just give me longer than 24 hours to finish wathcing it.


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## mc rocka (Aug 21, 2006)

listen my tivo has made my reception on my tv very bad and it takes like an hour for it to change channels. im using regular basic cable with iut it , but im getting IO installed today. can some one please tell me if i should keep the box w/ io . or should i return it. but if i return it i would still be under the 30 day limit sept. 3rd is 30 days and i got a 1 year deal. also the site says i dont have to pay those services because i didnt register after sept 6th. heres the site: click here


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mc rocka said:


> listen my tivo has made my reception on my tv very bad and it takes like an hour for it to change channels. im using regular basic cable with iut it , but im getting IO installed today. can some one please tell me if i should keep the box w/ io . or should i return it. but if i return it i would still be under the 30 day limit sept. 3rd is 30 days and i got a 1 year deal. also the site says i dont have to pay those services because i didnt register after sept 6th. heres the site: click here


TiVo does have a 30 day money back policy but will balk on day 31. so if you are serious then do it soon. I assume IO is the digital tier for your cable??
If so then you will need a cable box to hook up to the TiVo and channel changing will get slower since a nother box will be involved.

I personally do not surf live TV with a TiVo. I watch recorded programs or else I am going to a specific channel like CNN or to watch a sports event. I bought TiVo to give up on surfing TV since my now playing list will have something in there to watch


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

riprod said:


> Yeah, I fell for it. I purchased TiVo at Best Buy. Nowhere on the box does it say it's a paid service. I get home to plug in my new DVR and find out I have to pay $12.95 a month or $299 for a 2 year contract.
> 
> All I want to do is record shows, it's not like they are providing a service... Unless someone comes to my house to press the record button for me. Ok, so I found out it downloads the user guide from them. That's worth $13 a month.
> 
> ...


TiVo has REQUIRED a subscription for over 5 years.

I guess you didn't bother to do ANY research on your product? Nor did you notice any fine print in any TiVo ad in the last 5 years?

It's very clear that TiVo requires a service... if you have at least a passing knowledge of the product at all.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

This problem is actually Best Buy's fault way more than Tivo. They should tell you at the checkout counter that a service fee is involved.

But anyway, how can anybody expect to pay $80 for a Tivo and that's it for life.

Free software updates, free guide service, free everything isn't really a real world possibility is it?

-smak-


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

smak said:


> But anyway, how can anybody expect to pay $80 for a Tivo and that's it for life.
> 
> Free software updates, free guide service, free everything isn't really a real world possibility is it?


RCA TVs come with free guide data (Guide Plus) as did my All-In-Wonder ATI capture card I bought (which also came with free software upgrades). The Slighbox has a one time fee of $200 for the device and you get firmware/software updates for free and free support (though no guide data). My S2 TiVo has lifetime service (free everything).

So yes, it is definately possible (though probably not for $80).


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

cwoody222 said:


> I guess you didn't bother to do ANY research on your product? Nor did you notice any fine print in any TiVo ad in the last 5 years?
> 
> It's very clear that TiVo requires a service... if you have at least a passing knowledge of the product at all.


There have been several posts about researching a product before buying it - newsflash, not everyone spends their time researching anything prior to buying. I think the term is called an impulse purchase.

I know I have bought some pretty pricey items on the whim - the first (1980) time I went to the mall to but a clock and ended up with a first gen Betamax that costs over $1,000 with a wired remote. (Zenith). The clock on it worked flawlessly . Research done prior to purchase - nada, nothing - I didn't even know I wanted it, untill I saw it. Then I had to have it.

Just because your have your ways don't assume that everyone has the same way of going about life.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Stolen from a review of the movie Material Girls:


> ... When the girls burn down the family house while giving each other spa treatments, all they think to grab is the TiVo, some fuzzy pink boots and a couple of gowns before speeding away in a convertible Mercedes. ...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

maki said:


> ... they're going to need to run some ads (another challenge...) or something to promote themselves.


I've been seeing a lot of TiVo ads recently on ESPN.com. Is this a new promotion, or has TiVo always advertised on the web like this?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I've been seeing a lot of TiVo ads recently on ESPN.com. Is this a new promotion, or has TiVo always advertised on the web like this?


I haven't seen the ESPN ones yet. But I have been seeing Tivo web ads quite a bit for a long time (months) now, on lots of different sites.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

They have been doing ads on cnn.com for years


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> They have been doing ads on cnn.com for years


Has it been that long? That was the first site I thought of as well. It strange some of the sites they advertise on. (can't think of any off the top of my head though  )

Wonder how that works.  Sites must just register with some company for ads or something, cause I'm sure Tivo isn't targeting some of these lesser known ones.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Jebberwocky! said:


> There have been several posts about researching a product before buying it - newsflash, not everyone spends their time researching anything prior to buying. I think the term is called an impulse purchase.


And that's always a bad idea. The amount of time and effort you need to put into researching a purchase is related to how expensive the purchase is. If you don't research your purchases, you deserve, literally, whatever you get.


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

bicker said:


> And that's always a bad idea. The amount of time and effort you need to put into researching a purchase is related to how expensive the purchase is. If you don't research your purchases, you deserve, literally, whatever you get.


In the last 25 years I have made exactly ONE impluse purchase; My first TiVo.

At the time I bought TiVo there was no info available, at least VERY little as I bought the first sellable unit to appear at Sears (The first retailer) in this area.

It had ver 1.1 of the software. No season pass manager, no wishlists, and was hard to get started as the set up phone call took 6 hours and the indexing afterwards took an aditional 5 hours. (During that time it could not be used at all and had to start all over if it failed.)

With all of that it was the best buy I have ever made and 6 TiVos later it is still opperational, although I currently am not using it as my 3 DTiVos are plenty for me at this time and I have no cable or standard DTV receivers.

The trick with an impluse buy is to be sure of the return and cancelation policy(s) involved and THAT was spelled out to me quite well by the promotional material sent to Sears with the two TiVos they received.

Impluse buying is OK as long as the risks are understood up front.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

bicker said:


> And that's always a bad idea. The amount of time and effort you need to put into researching a purchase is related to how expensive the purchase is. If you don't research your purchases, you deserve, literally, whatever you get.


"Always" not hardly. I have a few impulse purchases I'm quite happy with.

You also forgot to consider how much the $$$ spent are relative to your annual income.

On the flip side, there are several items I've researched, found the best deal, purchased and then realized after the fact that the IMF was a little overstated.

My wife thinks I'm a gadget collector.


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## rjdafoe (Feb 24, 2006)

greg_burns said:


> Anybody know where the S3 is going to be manufactured? He has gotten my hopes up now.


I find it hard to believe that they lose money on the boxes. With prices today, there is no way they are losing money on the price.

After all, they are not the latest technology by far.

There is nothing in there. a MB with a slow, cheap CPU and a HD.

I would venture a guess that for a little while, any of the newest series would lose money (when S3 comes out), but after 6 months or so, I wouldn't think so.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6654836&type=product&id=1082742833318
$219

Don't get me wrong, I love tivo, I have 2 DirecTivos and wouldn't give them up.

But I can't believe they are losing money on the boxes at this point.

You can buy a modern Dell, with monitor for $100 - 150 more and that is way more machine than that.

Not to mention, buying the parts to make your own. Via CPUS with MB can be had for around $55, cases for around $30, 80 Gb HDD for around $50, 128Mb RAM for about $30, and a capture card for under $50. That is $215 my cost.


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## RF_Guy (Aug 22, 2006)

a real advice would be, bring your TIVO back and get Toshiba TIVO S2 DVR/DVD instead. They have lifetime free basic TIVO service. It will provide you exactly what you need. 3 days guide, no season pass though as well as some other features are missing... you can look up details on TIVO website...
I have one, very happy... but i still keep another TIVO box with full service, it is really worth money...


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

rjdafoe said:


> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6654836&type=product&id=1082742833318
> $219


Which is $69 after rebate, though there are any number of places where you can get this box for free, after rebate.



> But I can't believe they are losing money on the boxes at this point.


Then you have trouble accepting reality and should seek professional help before you get run over by a car or something else you didn't "believe" would happen.

Scroll back in this thread and read my post on TiVo's financials. It pretty clearly demonstrates that TiVo does, indeed, lose money on the hardware.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

rjdafoe said:


> You can buy a modern Dell, with monitor for $100 - 150 more and that is way more machine than that.


And Dell is in serious trouble because of their aggressive pricing.

One thing after another, bad news buffets Dell

No. 1 PC maker says earnings will miss even pessimistic forecasts due to aggressive pricing, slowing sales


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## classicX (May 10, 2006)

Jebberwocky! said:


> On the flip side, there are several items I've researched, found the best deal, purchased and then realized after the fact that the IMF was a little overstated.


The International Monetary Fund??


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

rjdafoe said:


> There is nothing in there. a MB with a slow, cheap CPU and a HD.
> 
> I would venture a guess that for a little while, any of the newest series would lose money (when S3 comes out), but after 6 months or so, I wouldn't think so.
> 
> ...


You forgot the RAM and Flux Capacitor (necessary for the Time-Warp Patent implementation.)

I haven't looked at the numbers closely in several months, but I don't think TiVo loses money at $219 or whatever, but they lose money after rebate of $150. They get closer to $100 on average because not all the rebates are taken.

TiVo has expressed an intention not to lose the kind of money on S3 boxes in the early stages they do on the S2, which could also mean selling them at a profit.


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## rjdafoe (Feb 24, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> Which is $69 after rebate, though there are any number of places where you can get this box for free, after rebate.
> 
> Then you have trouble accepting reality and should seek professional help before you get run over by a car or something else you didn't "believe" would happen.
> 
> Scroll back in this thread and read my post on TiVo's financials. It pretty clearly demonstrates that TiVo does, indeed, lose money on the hardware.


BTW, do you always resort to name calling when someone questions something?

After rebate, I agree they may lose money. However, you still foat them the money for a long time, or forever, depending on who you ask. It is a shell game, nothing more. Some of the parts posted are more modern than what is in the series 2. I have seen discreet motherboards for as low as $20 - 30 new. The most expensive thing in that unit these days is the HDD.

However, I have to say, stated on that page in 2 places, if the OP looked on the BB web page it states there is a fee.


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## rjdafoe (Feb 24, 2006)

HDTiVo said:


> You forgot the RAM and Flux Capacitor (necessary for the Time-Warp Patent implementation.)
> 
> I haven't looked at the numbers closely in several months, but I don't think TiVo loses money at $219 or whatever, but they lose money after rebate of $150. They get closer to $100 on average because not all the rebates are taken.
> 
> TiVo has expressed an intention not to lose the kind of money on S3 boxes in the early stages they do on the S2, which could also mean selling them at a profit.


Which makes sense. After the rebate, that they keep the money for 3-6 months on. But, When I look inside and see what is actually being used, the stuff is very cheap these days. There is no getting around it. That is why they can give such deep rebates.


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## LordFett (May 6, 2005)

morac said:


> RCA TVs come with free guide data


Yes, but it is wrong more often then it is correct. Since I purchased my TiVos I've never used the guide on the TV. I wish I had skipped this TV (only bought it because of the guide and paid $50 more then the same TV by another brand) gotten the next size up and a TiVo at the same time.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

rjdafoe said:


> However, I have to say, stated on that page in 2 places, if the OP looked on the BB web page it states there is a fee.


But not on the box where it matters most.


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## riprod (Aug 19, 2006)

rjdafoe said:


> BTW, do you always resort to name calling when someone questions something?


yup, he pretty much does

The rebate is offered is to tie people in on the service contract. On full price I still don't beleive they lose money. Play Stations or XBoxes are the same price and they don't lose money and are way more powerfull.

My complaint was that it was not clear on the box or in the store that you need a paid service contract to use the equipment. I did go and get it back and signed up and have to say I love it! but I still think the $13 is a lot of money for guide data. I can't see anything else that they provide, everything else appears to be in the hardware that they sell to you.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

riprod said:


> The rebate is offered is to tie people in on the service contract. On full price I still don't beleive they lose money. Play Stations or XBoxes are the same price and they don't lose money and are way more powerfull.


MS looses money on every Xbox1 sold (and apparently even the 360's).

They make it back in licensing. (Or at least hope to.) Not sure Xbox1 was ever extremely profitable for them at all, IIRC.

 Microsoft's Red-Ink Game


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

riprod said:


> The rebate is offered is to tie people in on the service contract. On full price I still don't beleive they lose money. Play Stations or XBoxes are the same price and they don't lose money and are way more powerfull.


 the financial statements clearly show money lost on hardware. Both replay and TiVo tried to price the box at 500$ with no subscription back a few years and sales tanked. Your idea of cranking the total revenue in at time of purchase is not a great marketing idea. Aslo a DVR is not a PC - it needs a tuner and very fast mpeg encoder/decoder due to multiple real time streams. The "motherboard" is very custom with lots of chips not found in a PC. So a direct comaprison to a cheap PC is apple to oranges.


> My complaint was that it was not clear on the box or in the store that you need a paid service contract to use the equipment. I did go and get it back and signed up and have to say I love it! but I still think the $13 is a lot of money for guide data. I can't see anything else that they provide, everything else appears to be in the hardware that they sell to you.


since you elected to repeat that you get nothing for the 13$, I elected to repeat what I said about that.................

welcome back to the TiVolution 

the really cool rumor is that TiVo is working with Apple on an HME app that will let you watch the iTunes video and movies rightg on the TiVo. You still have to give apple its money of course.

So this is really what the subscription fee is about to my way of thinking. TiVo inc. keeps adding features to the TiVo DVR. When I bought my Series 2, HMO was priced at 99$ a box, there was no TiVoToGo or HME , TiVoToComeBack No Yahoo integration, etc..

Now all of that is included in the subscription and has greatly increased the value of the TiVo box and as I noted, TiVo is not stopping but looking to keep on adding value to the above.

Find any box out there that does half of that. Find any box out there that does just the simple record and play shows part of the DVR for less than 600$. Frankly with how fast tech changes I would rather pay 50 or 99$ upfront and then 13 or 7 a month over time since it will take some time to get to 600$

or if you don't like that then get the DVR from your cable /sat provider but note the pace of advancing their feature set is FAR slower and still you pay a boatload of money to the cable /sat provider for the total package.

so complain away but point out who has made a better business model work


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

rjdafoe said:


> BTW, do you always resort to name calling when someone questions something?


1. I didn't call you a name.
2. You didn't question something, you made a flat-out statement that you didn't believe TiVo lost money on hardware -- and you did it twice in the same post. And you did it despite the fact that the thread already contained a response to that issue that included financial information demonstrating that TiVo does, in fact, lose money on hardware sales.



> After rebate, I agree they may lose money.


Wrong again (still?). Look at the numbers, look at the financial statements. For many quarters, TiVo has lost money on the hardware sales. Period. The rebates are a seperate line in the statements, and only make the hardware loss bigger.


> However, you still foat them the money for a long time, or forever, depending on who you ask. It is a shell game, nothing more.


Ugh. Now I am getting close to calling you a name. Whatever. Go back to living in your bizarre paranoid little world where things you believe are true and audited financial statements filed with the SEC can't penetrate.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So this is really what the subscription fee is about to my way of thinking. TiVo inc. keeps adding features to the TiVo DVR. When I bought my Series 2, HMO was priced at 99$ a box, there was no TiVoToGo or HME , TiVoToComeBack No Yahoo integration, etc..
> 
> Now all of that is included in the subscription and has greatly increased the value of the TiVo box and as I noted, TiVo is not stopping but looking to keep on adding value to the above.
> 
> ...


Great points, Zeo. :up: I paid $500 for my first TiVo just 3 years ago (with lifetime) but I certainly don't mind paying $30 plus the monthly fee for another brand new one.  The lack of lifetime may not appeal to some of us but half a grand probably appeals to even fewer average consumers.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

greg_burns said:


> And Dell is in serious trouble because of their aggressive pricing.


Not to mention that Dell has what is arguably the most efficient manufacturing system ever created by man. And they realize economies of scale due to a volume of production that utterly dwarfs anything TiVo could ever hope to achieve.


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## grizel (Feb 19, 2005)

I have a DirectTV Tivo and there;s a fee, but I dont thinks it's half as much as $13 for the box...


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## cara (Aug 26, 2006)

riprod said:


> Yeah, I fell for it. I purchased TiVo at Best Buy. Nowhere on the box does it say it's a paid service. I get home to plug in my new DVR and find out I have to pay $12.95 a month or $299 for a 2 year contract.
> 
> All I want to do is record shows, it's not like they are providing a service... Unless someone comes to my house to press the record button for me. Ok, so I found out it downloads the user guide from them. That's worth $13 a month.
> 
> ...


 You failed to research to product obviously. I'm telling you for sure that the monthly charge is for the guild. Your TIVO is down loading a new program guild every two weeks. TIVO will not be able to tell what to record without it. There for you won't be able to record unless you see the program on then push record. We've just upgraded now the price for our TIVO service is included in our direct tv package. Sign up. Try not to feel cheated. Be open to the TIVO experience. You'll love it if you do!


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I thought it was worth repeating.



> Increasingly, products are sold that rely on other services to function. The cost of technology and R&D is so great that most consumers can't afford to pay for a product that includes everything it needs to run. So rather than paying $600 for a DVR that includes these services, you are able to buy a $200 DVR with a $12.95/mo fee.
> 
> Don't believe this? Just look at Tivo's 10Q filing :
> 
> ...


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