# Free space indicator for S3, HD, HD XL?



## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

When will we get free space indicator for S3, HD, HD XL, like TiVo Premier?


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## AandFDakota2001 (Sep 6, 2008)

From everything that TiVo has said, S3, HD, and HDXl owners are out of luck when it comes to the free space indicator.


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## SJPstl (Mar 27, 2005)

It is kind of silly that we don't already have a free space meter. Obviously the info is there and easy to get. The information screen for each recording tells you how much space it uses. Add them up and subtract from the total. Not hard, just tedious. Exactly what computers do best.

For now, I just look at my Suggestions folder. If there is nothing there, I know I am about out of space. If there is a lot there, I have plenty of room. Really, that's all I use Suggestions for. Not sure I have ever actually watched something out of that folder.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I used to watch suggestions when I first used TiVo, but now that I have so much recorded I don't really need to. I just use it as a free space indicator now. With 1TB of storage or more, who really needs a free space indicator?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> I used to watch suggestions when I first used TiVo, but now that I have so much recorded I don't really need to. I just use it as a free space indicator now. With 1TB of storage or more, who really needs a free space indicator?


with 1 TB I do not even use suggestions or recently deleted - I have shows like American Idol I do not delete off and now also some Olympics - when i see them start to go then I know that room is needed


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

SJPstl said:


> For now, I just look at my Suggestions folder. If there is nothing there, I know I am about out of space. If there is a lot there, I have plenty of room. Really, that's all I use Suggestions for. Not sure I have ever actually watched something out of that folder.


Suggestions work great until your cable provider turns them off for you. My THD went to zero suggestions when I added cable cards and a tuning adapter. I had no idea that was the case and we were always stressing out about free space on the unit. I removed those and suddenly I'm getting suggestions again. Looked it up and apparently the cable co(TWC) can prevent the THD from doing an automated channel change when the show hasn't been specifically requested.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

TiVo commented that the older software architecture on the Tivo HD/Series3/Series2 made it very difficult to update the UI. Hence the reason changes are being made only with the new Flash UI.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

free space is irrelevant unless you have such little drive space in total that you could miss shows because they'll get deleted. The drive is always full. That's why you can get to previously deleted stuff.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

b_scott said:


> free space is irrelevant unless you have such little drive space in total that you could miss shows because they'll get deleted. The drive is always full. That's why you can get to previously deleted stuff.


That is true, but TiVo could always ignore Suggestions and Recently Deleted in the capacity calculation. We don't know exactly what they are doing with the Premiere's FSI, but that would be my guess. If they aren't doing that, then the FSI would be completely useless as it would always report 95-100% full.

There may be some users confused why all their Suggestions and Recently Deleted folders are cleared when the DVR reports 20+% or more free space, but that's the tradeoff.


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## Thom (Jun 5, 2000)

All TiVo has to do is move the Deleted folder to the top (instead of the bottom) of Now Playing, and put Suggestion recordings into a Suggestions folder at the top of Now Playing, and everyone would have a free space indicator.

Right now, I have Suggestions turned off, so my Deleted folder count shows me how low my free space is getting.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

b_scott said:


> free space is irrelevant unless you have such little drive space in total that you could miss shows because they'll get deleted. The drive is always full. That's why you can get to previously deleted stuff.


Yes, even with a 1 TB drive, my Tivo is almost always close to full.. But because of the 'nag screens', I don't keep EVERYTHING keep until I delete..

so I want a free space indicator.

You don't want it, then don't use it. It's reasonable for those of us who want it to use the info..


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

I don't need a free space indicator. I can tell you how full it is - it's full. When TiVo wants to record a program, it deletes the oldest program, which is I think about a month or so old.

The only time I delete anything is when it's a repeat or something and I just don't care for it.

If I need an estimate how much space I have, I just go back to see what's the oldest program in there.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

I use TivoPlayList to check my space when I think I'm getting low on space.


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## oViTynoT (May 18, 2007)

Yeah, I don't get it...

What do you DO with that information you get from an indicator? 

To me, it's just eye candy. There's nothing practical about it.

For those that were vocal for that enhancement, how do you plan to change your viewing/recording behavior based on what you'll see there?


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

They'll be able to stress over how full their TiVo is instead of not having to worry about it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

oViTynoT said:


> ....To me, it's just eye candy. There's nothing practical about it....


And THAT is exactly how I feel about the HD GUI that everyone seems to be orgasmic about....just keep it easy to use and very functional. I could care less how it looks.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Well what do you know, another FSI debate.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I just thought this bore repeating. On the THD there is no guarantee that suggestions will record due to restrictions put into place by the cable company. So, you can't rely on those as an indication of free space. This is a major difference from the series 2 units which will always record suggestions if the TiVo is configured to do so.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> They'll be able to stress over how full their TiVo is instead of not having to worry about it.


With no FSI if I don't see suggestions there is no easy way to gauge remaining space if I want to grab that syfy marathon. Because suggestions record at the same quality its easy to use them as a meter as long as they are there.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> I just thought this bore repeating. *On the THD there is no guarantee that suggestions will record due to restrictions put into place by the cable company.* So, you can't rely on those as an indication of free space. This is a major difference from the series 2 units which will always record suggestions if the TiVo is configured to do so.


what?


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

b_scott said:


> what?


Correct. With the Tuning Adapters (TA) used for SDV, cable companies have the ability to turn off Suggestions on SDV channels.

In most cases, they use this setting from ignorance rather than maliciousness (it gets turned back on with complaints), but it is under their control.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Correct. With the Tuning Adapters (TA) used for SDV, cable companies have the ability to turn off Suggestions on SDV channels.
> 
> In most cases, they use this setting from ignorance rather than maliciousness (it gets turned back on with complaints), but it is under their control.


I don't get it...... suggestions just means Tivo scans all the program info to come up with ideas to record things for you, right? How does that have anything to do with the cable company? And if it does, why would they not want you watching more TV?


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

b_scott said:


> I don't get it...... suggestions just means Tivo scans all the program info to come up with ideas to record things for you, right? How does that have anything to do with the cable company? And if it does, why would they not want you watching more TV?


This ONLY applies if you use a tuning adapter. If the show that the TiVo DVR picks to record as a suggestion is on an SDV channel it will send a request to change to that channel to the Tuning adapter and if the cable company has "speculative recording" of SDV channels turned off the request will be denied and the DVR will not record that show. On systems like Time Warner where all HD channels are on SDV, that pretty much shuts suggestions down completely.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

chrishicks said:


> I use TivoPlayList to check my space when I think I'm getting low on space.


+1


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

CuriousMark said:


> This ONLY applies if you use a tuning adapter. If the show that the TiVo DVR picks to record as a suggestion is on an SDV channel it will send a request to change to that channel to the Tuning adapter and if the cable company has "speculative recording" of SDV channels turned off the request will be denied and the DVR will not record that show. On systems like Time Warner where all HD channels are on SDV, that pretty much shuts suggestions down completely.


weird, that sucks.


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

Thom said:


> All TiVo has to do is move the Deleted folder to the top (instead of the bottom) of Now Playing, and put Suggestion recordings into a Suggestions folder at the top of Now Playing, and everyone would have a free space indicator.
> .


Wouldn't it be even easier to create a mini-pie chart showing %Green, %yellow, %suggestions, and %free/deleted?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

oViTynoT said:


> Yeah, I don't get it...
> 
> What do you DO with that information you get from an indicator?


I either delete something from the To Do list, or delete something *specific* (e.g. a documentary or some show I care less about) from Now Playing.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

Worf said:


> I don't need a free space indicator. I can tell you how full it is - it's full. When TiVo wants to record a program, it deletes the oldest program, which is I think about a month or so old.
> 
> The only time I delete anything is when it's a repeat or something and I just don't care for it.
> 
> If I need an estimate how much space I have, I just go back to see what's the oldest program in there.


THis argument has been had many times but I don't want old stuff to get deleted. Everything I record is something I eventually want to watch. I just don't have time for it. That's why I got a Tivo with a 1TB drive. But when my kid starts to record a bunch of stuff on it or I record some long sporting events it gets a little dicey. Personally I use deleted items and Tivoplaylist to check free space but the concept and need for some form of FSI is the same. It's very important.

I use those shows I recorded and haven't watched in December and the summer when there isn't much on. So while many of you are complaining about nothing on I'm watching all my old stuff from Tivo. I've yet to run out of stuff I want to watch due to there being "nothing on". Isn't that the point of a Tivo.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> When will we get free space indicator for S3, HD, HD XL, like TiVo Premier?


It's called the suggestions folder, and it works just fine for many folks.

[rant] I just have never seen why people are so fixated on this, especially with current units with 1TB in them, darn it, I just don't care that much! [/rant]

You don't have to say it's perfect, but it works, and I'd rather have them spend their resources on things like Pandora and solving the TA NPL disappearing issue with S2/S3 combos.

Diane


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> When will we get free space indicator for S3, HD, HD XL, like TiVo Premier?


I've noticed you are a gloom & doom thread poster. Why?

In the Coffee House forum, you created two different threads, on the same day, noting how TiVo is on a death spiral. Now you're here posting this BS.

It's one thing to start threads that actually inspire conversation. It's another to constantly harp on the negative with scare tactics like "TiVo posts $10.2m loss, remains on deathwatch". What deathwatch? When were they on it?

The FSI has been a hot topic for years. Search some of the old threads and you will see me constantly posting, saying what a gimme it would be to create one, and they should do it if only to quiet the critics. So I support your suggestion. But to post it the way you do, with such absolute negativity dripping off your words, achieves nothing.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> It's called the suggestions folder, and it works just fine for many folks.
> 
> [rant] I just have never seen why people are so fixated on this, especially with current units with 1TB in them, darn it, I just don't care that much! [/rant]
> 
> ...


Please see above post on suggestions being turned off. Suggestions cannot be used as a reliable way to track space any longer.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Please see above post on suggestions being turned off. Suggestions cannot be used as a reliable way to track space any longer.


Wrong, your current technical issues with suggestions are NOT all users, your situation is for lack of a better term "special" Notice I said "it works fine for many folks" not *all* I gave the users that either do not like that option, or those with a technical issue the exception on that.

Please stop making it sound like every single user has the same issues that you do, because they don't.

Diane


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

I've never really cared about having a FSI and I have suggestions turned off. I pretty much know what I want to watch and do not need to rely on suggestions. I upgraded my internal drive to a 1TB and figure if I fill that up I really need to start watching less TV anyway.


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## waynomo (Nov 9, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I've noticed you are a gloom & doom thread poster. Why?
> 
> In the Coffee House forum, you created two different threads, on the same day, noting how TiVo is on a death spiral. Now you're here posting this BS.
> 
> ...


+1 :up: (Is the thumb redundant?)

Yes, a free space indicator would be nice. I can tell how much free space I have by checking my "Deleted Items" folder. I think I will check out "TivoPlayList" to see what this adds to the party.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

CuriousMark said:


> This ONLY applies if you use a tuning adapter. If the show that the TiVo DVR picks to record as a suggestion is on an SDV channel it will send a request to change to that channel to the Tuning adapter and if the cable company has "speculative recording" of SDV channels turned off the request will be denied and the DVR will not record that show. On systems like Time Warner where all HD channels are on SDV, that pretty much shuts suggestions down completely.


So an SDV tuning request has some kind of flag for "requested" vs "speculative" tuning? And Time Warner's ignoring all requests that are flagged "speculative"?

What an odd design. I'd be interested in seeing the specs on that.

I guess I can see why it _might_ have been speced that way. If a node ran out of SDV slots it would be useful to drop "speculative" requests before "normal" ones. But universally rejecting the flag, rather than only rejecting requests when you're out of resources, is just begging for devices to lie about their SDV reason.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> Wrong, your current technical issues with suggestions are NOT all users, your situation is for lack of a better term "special" Notice I said "it works fine for many folks" not *all* I gave the users that either do not like that option, or those with a technical issue the exception on that.
> 
> Please stop making it sound like every single user has the same issues that you do, because they don't.
> 
> Diane


Not wrong, it is unreliable. Not just for me, but for everyone using TWC where they've moved to SDV.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> So an SDV tuning request has some kind of flag for "requested" vs "speculative" tuning? And Time Warner's ignoring all requests that are flagged "speculative"?
> 
> What an odd design. I'd be interested in seeing the specs on that.
> 
> I guess I can see why it _might_ have been speced that way. If a node ran out of SDV slots it would be useful to drop "speculative" requests before "normal" ones. But universally rejecting the flag, rather than only rejecting requests when you're out of resources, is just begging for devices to lie about their SDV reason.


I'd put money on it that the Cable Card cert holds them to identifying the source of the request.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Please see above post on suggestions being turned off. Suggestions cannot be used as a reliable way to track space any longer.


Deleted Folder!!! Why do people not understand this can be used as a poor man's FSI? There's not an FSI thread created that doesn't have this mentioned multiple times, yet you always hear people say, "I don't use Suggestions, so I can't track it that way."



brettatk said:


> I've never really cared about having a FSI and I have suggestions turned off. I pretty much know what I want to watch and do not need to rely on suggestions. I upgraded my internal drive to a 1TB and *figure if I fill that up I really need to start watching less TV anyway.*


Ain't that the truth! You and me both. 


waynomo said:


> Yes, a free space indicator would be nice. * I can tell how much free space I have by checking my "Deleted Items" folder.*


Yeah, but no one else will remember this trick . . .


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

NYHeel said:


> THis argument has been had many times but I don't want old stuff to get deleted.


old stuff won't get deleted until it has to. You can't stop it from needing deletion, there is a finite amount of space. You set your priorities and that's all you can do. It'll be the same way with the FSI. It doesn't magically give you infinite space.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

b_scott said:


> old stuff won't get deleted until it has to. You can't stop it from needing deletion, there is a finite amount of space. You set your priorities and that's all you can do. It'll be the same way with the FSI. It doesn't magically give you infinite space.


True, you can't stop old things from being deleted. (Well in a single TiVo situation). But, playing devil's advocate you might be able to prevent them from being deleted unwatched.

Hypothetically, if you had 4 shows you'd watched 75% of each and you had an hour free to watch TV, knowing that the TiVo was extremely low on space* you could chose to watch the last 15 minutues of each show (allowing you to free up 4 hours) rather than watch half a movie (freeing up 0 hours)
*using whatever definition of 'low' you prefer

Or you could determine that not all unwatched shows are of equal interest and manually intervine, either by deleting shows of least interest or by adjusting the keep until date for shows of greater interest.

And that doesn't even consider the possiblities of balancing disk space between two or more TiVos**, backing files up to a computer**, or archiving them to other media (standlone dvd burner, vcr, etc)
**CCI byte permitting

Sure, I don't often feel the need to intervine, but let's not assume that there are no possible actions a person could take if they knew scheduled shows were about to be deleted.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

you could also look at your deleted items folder, go to the very last one, and realize that will be deleted when the same amount of time is recorded new. The drive is 100&#37; full all the time.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> And THAT is exactly how I feel about the HD GUI that everyone seems to be orgasmic about....just keep it easy to use and very functional. I could care less how it looks.


:up::up::up: +1000


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

What I don't understand is why people don't understand that an FSI tells the user virtually nothing whatsoever. A TiVo is surely based upon a computing platform, but it is not a computer. On a desktop PC or a file server, free space is essential, and if the device is nearly out of free space, something must be done, and quickly. The files on a PC or server are semi-permanent in nature, and an older file cannot be arbitrarily deleted to make room for a new, unrelated file. The storage on a TiVo is completely different. Discounting KUID content, the older a program on a Tivo is, statistically speaking the lower its likely value, which is why the Tivo automatically replaces older programs with newer ones. *AUTOMATICALLY.* 'No user intervention required. Any unused space on a TiVo is simply a waste of the TiVo's resources, and unlike a PC owner or file server admin, the TiVo owner ideally wants his TiVo to be full. Of course, maintaining the quality of the product on the TiVo drive is up to the owner, but the tools provided by the TiVo help the owner maintain the quality apriori, so that nothing is ordinarily needed in the way of user intervention after the programs are recorded, except perhaps to delete any programs the user does not want any longer. An automatic FIFO buffer is not like linear storage. Beyond a certain size the buffer capacity is essentially infinite, despite the fact its extent is finite. What this means when applied to the TiVo is that unless the user indiscriminately sets almost everything to KUID, then provided the drive is large enough (about 500G - 750G for an average family of four), the TiVo has the ability to hold every program the family ever wants until they are done watching them. Certainly one can never have too large a hard drive, but the FSI does NOT tell the owner what they need to know in terms of either whether the drive is too small or what programs are about to be lost. That can be done only - but quickly and easily - by sorting by date and turning groups off (if I recall, it's been along time since I bothered). Jump down to the oldest non-KUID program, and one can see what program is in greatest potential jeopardy of being deleted. If this is less time than one would generally need or like to have to ensure every interesting program can be watched, then the owner needs a larger hard drive. All mine are over a year old, and I record dozens of programs a week on each of my three TiVos. In almost eleven years, I have never once had to take any action due to a full drive on any Tivo. Note that no program to be recorded will ever fail to be recorded unless far toot many of the programs are set to be KUID. Instead, any recently deleted programs evaporate first in the order they were recorded (oldest first). After all the recently deleted are gone, Suggestions are trashed, also oldest first. Finally, the oldest scheduled recordings are removed one at a time until there is room for the new material. Suggestions will overwrite recently deleted items and older Suggestions, but will never overwrite a scheduled recording, no matter how old.

The bottom line is a TiVo with a full hard drive is not something that requires any action or even any concern on the part of the TiVo owner. At the very least it is a matter of no interest at all, and at the most it is a matter for which to rejoice. One might say it should be cause for the owner to hurry up and record more programs, but the Tivo will do that well enough.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Please see above post on suggestions being turned off. Suggestions cannot be used as a reliable way to track space any longer.


The important point is there is no reason to track space. It doesn't tell the user anything whatsoever that they need to know. No upoming progrmam is ever not going to be recorded, so there is no reason to worry on that score. It is also not important that something may be deleted, because (again ignoring KUID) sooner or later just about everything is going to get deleted, whether manually or automaticaly as the case may be. The important question for the user is WHEN it will be deleted. One can easily ascertain this using the method I mentioned above, and an FSI indicator says nothing whatsoever about it. If the oldest non-KUID program on the system is habitually only a week old, then the drive system is way too small, especially if it is a scheduled recording. If it is usually about a month old, then one can rest assured they have close to a month to watch their chosen programs before they start being at risk for being gobbled up. Usually I watch most programs (or decide I don't want to watch them and delete them) within six weeks or so of their being recorded, but typically I have at least six months before they start being in jeopardy of being deleted automatically. The drive system is 100% full most of the time on all my TiVos.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Jonathan_S said:


> True, you can't stop old things from being deleted. (Well in a single TiVo situation). But, playing devil's advocate you might be able to prevent them from being deleted unwatched.
> 
> Hypothetically, if you had 4 shows you'd watched 75% of each and you had an hour free to watch TV, knowing that the TiVo was extremely low on space* you could chose to watch the last 15 minutues of each show (allowing you to free up 4 hours) rather than watch half a movie (freeing up 0 hours)
> *using whatever definition of 'low' you prefer
> ...




I don't need a FSI. When my "deleted" folder gets below "10", I know I need to intervene to avoid losing something I want to watch.
How would a FSI make that any easier?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> It's called the suggestions folder, and it works just fine for many folks.
> 
> [rant] I just have never seen why people are so fixated on this, especially with current units with 1TB in them, darn it, I just don't care that much! [/rant]
> 
> You don't have to say it's perfect, but it works, and I'd rather have them spend their resources on things like Pandora and solving the TA NPL disappearing issue with S2/S3 combos.


Nothing is perfect, but the point is an FSI not only is not reliable at all, it doesn't even do what some people think it does (or should do). If one has at least two months worth of time to watch any program after the TiVo records it, then I would say the system is highly reliable in the respect of considering how much space is available. The amount of sapce left unused - by whatever definition - at any given moment is not relevant to the issue. If they don't watch the program, don't set it KUID, and don't copy it off onto an archive of some sort (assuming it isn't blocked by copy protection), then really, how important was the program to them in the first place? If they really don't watch programs they consider important for more than 2 months, then they should get a larger drive. So called "free space" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> I don't need a FSI. When my "deleted" folder gets below "10", I know I need to intervene to avoid losing something I want to watch.
> How would a FSI make that any easier?


Well, first of all, that begs the question, "Why would you have something on your TiVo you don't want to watch?" Now of course, the question is a little overly simplistic in intent. Truly, there may be things the Tivo records that are of less interest to you than other things, and some (reruns you've seen many times, some Suggestions, off the beam Wishlist recordings etc.) may be of no interest to you, at all. The important point, however, is if these are left on the TiVo at all (I ordinarily delete them on a casual basis, but by no means obsessively), then perforce they are also going to be in very large measure the oldest programs on the Tivo. Please, everyone, think about that for a minute. _If it has been sitting there untouched for longer than anything else on the TiVo, then it almost always will also be the thing you least want to watch._ Can there be exceptions? Surely, but KUID can easily take care of that for the occasional case when it is true. I'll say it again: if you want to make sure something does not get deleted until you get a chance to watch it, then set it KUID, and you can do that when it is brand new. 'No need to wait until it is in danger of being deleted. Otherwise, just let the TiVo delete it. 'No need to worry about it.

Another extremely important point is that a free space indicator does not make more time for one to watch programs. It only allows one to believe (wrongly) that one must delete some programs, or (less wrongly) to archive them. But doesn't it allow one to "hurry up" and watch the important programs before the TiVo gobbles them up? Not really, no. Again, if it was important, then why wasn't it watched sooner, set KUID, or archived?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

For me, I keep all the shows I "want" to watch (eventually) on the Tivo.
If space becomes an issue, then I decide whether I want to move them to the PC or just delete them.
The way you have to manage recordings won't change with the addition of a FSI. That's why I think it's not needed.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> True, you can't stop old things from being deleted. (Well in a single TiVo situation). But, playing devil's advocate you might be able to prevent them from being deleted unwatched.


If they are the oldest scheduled recordings on the Tivo, then why is it a concern, assuming the TiVo has a large enough drive system so that a reasonably large amount of time will pass before this becomes the case, of course?



Jonathan_S said:


> Hypothetically, if you had 4 shows you'd watched 75% of each


Yeah, but who does that? More to the point, who watches all but 15 minutes of a bunch of shows and then lets them sit unwatched for two months or more?



Jonathan_S said:


> Or you could determine that not all unwatched shows are of equal interest and manually intervine, either by deleting shows of least interest or by adjusting the keep until date for shows of greater interest.


If there were only 10 or 20 programs on a full drive, and the oldest programs were never more than a few days old (can you say, "Scientific Atlanta 8300HD"?), then this would be of significant concern, but on a systemw ith at least 100 - 200 programs of capacity, statistically the oldest non-KUID programs should always be the least precious.



Jonathan_S said:


> And that doesn't even consider the possiblities of balancing disk space between two or more TiVos**, backing files up to a computer**, or archiving them to other media (standlone dvd burner, vcr, etc)
> **CCI byte permitting


That's true, but the same still applies. If the drive is large enough, then there should be plenty of time to archive the program before the system gobbles it up. I've built up more than 10TB of video on my servers entirely copied from my TiVos. Sometimes it is a week or even more before I can get around to copying them, although since it only takes a few minutes to mark a whole bunch of programs to be copied, and the copy can occur while I am at work or asleep, there never need be a mad dash to get it done.



Jonathan_S said:


> Sure, I don't often feel the need to intervine, but let's not assume that there are no possible actions a person could take if they knew scheduled shows were about to be deleted.


The question is not what they COULD do, but what they NEED to do. Provided their hard drive system is of sufficient size, the answer is, "Nothing, other than watch what they want, when they want." The rest can be left up to the TiVo. A typical Series III class TiVo holds between 25 and 300 hours of HD programming, or up to 2000 hours of SD programming. Twenty-five hours is without question way, way too small. Once one exceeds a minimum of around 100 hours of programming, however, one comes into the realm where any given program is going to sit on the TiVo considerrably longer than is reasonably required to alllow for it to be reliably addressed in whatever fashion the owner deems fit. If the Tivo, like a VCR, only held two or three days' worth of programming, then one would be compelled to keep a very sharp eye on the contents and how much room is left for recording. Since it is quite inexpensive to purchase or upgrade to a TiVo which can easily hold six months worth of programming (after taking ordinary deletions into account), it just doesn't need to be an issue.


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## JonAult (Jan 19, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> Another extremely important point is that a free space indicator does not make more time for one to watch programs. It only allows one to believe (wrongly) that one must delete some programs, or (less wrongly) to archive them. But doesn't it allow one to "hurry up" and watch the important programs before the TiVo gobbles them up? Not really, no. Again, if it was important, then why wasn't it watched sooner, set KUID, or archived?


You sure do have a lot invested in telling other folks how to watch TV. If you personally don't need a FSI, I'm happy for you, but some of us do benefit from knowing when our disks are getting full. I have most of my Season Passes set to KUID, and it's not uncommon for me to get busy with work or other activities & not watch very much TV for weeks at a time. Doesn't mean I won't get back to it eventually, and I do want to know when the disk is getting full so I can take steps to keep the Tivo recording the programs I want to watch, whenever it happens to be convenient for me to do so. (In some cases, that can be months later - I usually save up a bunch of episodes of one or two programs to watch over the summer when there normally isn't a lot getting recorded.)

Yes, I could use the Deleted or Suggestions folders to do that, but why should I have to fool around like that? The TiVo should be making things easy for me, not asking me to fool around with such indirect methods.

I don't know if it's worth it for TiVo to go back & add this to S3 or not, but I am looking forward to having it on my Premier when it shows up.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> For me, I keep all the shows I "want" to watch (eventually) on the Tivo.
> If space becomes an issue, then I decide whether I want to move them to the PC or just delete them.


Well, OK. I generally decide immediately whether it is something I want ot keep (mostly movies), but how laconic one might be about making the decision isn't relevant unless one procrastinates really badly. I'm a pretty big procrastinator, but not *THAT* big of one. Certainly I have never waited more than 6 months to a year before copying. Many progrsams I have copied and never bothered to delete from a TiVo have stayed there over a year and counting, however. Of course, I do have large drive systems on my TiVos, but that's the whole point.



steve614 said:


> The way you have to manage recordings won't change with the addition of a FSI. That's why I think it's not needed.


Absolutely.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I've always been amazed when certain people who don't see a need for a free space indicator are so vehemently opposed to the idea that they insist that everyone else has no clue how to properly use their TiVos. Frankly, I find this attitude to be a bit pompous.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

JonAult said:


> You sure do have a lot invested in telling other folks how to watch TV.


Why do people think that is what I am telling them? It has absolutely nothing to do with how anyone watches TV, which is the point. If I tell you you that by putting a V-8 in your pickup truck, you will no longer have to worry about the time it takes to pass other vehicles in the road, it says nothing whatsoever about how fast you drive.

An even better example is tailgating. I have heard countless people moronically say that stayng well behind the person ahead of them will cause them to arrive later. Leaving aside for the moment the fact none of them have ever been heart surgeons whose presence at their destination a few minutes late would cause someone's death, the simple fact is the arrival time is determined solely by the distance traveled, the speed of the vehicle, and the number and duration of the traffic lights encountered. The following distance has no effect whatsoever on the arrival time, unless of course one has an accident because they were tailgating...



JonAult said:


> If you personally don't need a FSI, I'm happy for you, but some of us do benefit from knowing when our disks are getting full.


No, unless your drive is too small, you don't benefit from it. You may think you do, but like the driver who thinks he is saving on gas by rolling down his wndows at 50mph rather than using the air conditioner, you don't. It has nothing to do with personal preferences and everything to do with hard, cold mathematics.



JonAult said:


> I have most of my Season Passes set to KUID


I can't stop you from engaging in practices which are contrary to your own intended result, but setting a Season Pass to KUID will result in much more jepopardy to your programs, not less. I'm truly sorry if you have some sort of emotional attachment to the notion of setting KUID, but all that setting KUID does is prevent a program from being deleted irrespective of its age or importance. It does not manage the space on the drive. If anyhting at all, it can make it more difficult to manage, especially since with only judicious use of KUID, one needn't manage the drive space at all.



JonAult said:


> and it's not uncommon for me to get busy with work or other activities & not watch very much TV for weeks at a time.


That goes for me, too. With KUID set, all that means, however, is that instead of deleting old programs, the TiVo fails to record new ones. Now, yes, it is very true that if a particular season pass is more important to you than anything else, then setting it KUID will insure that it will peferentially fill the drive until even it is no longer being recorded, and if that is truly your intent, then go for it. The point, however, is it will not prevent the Tivo from deleting or failing to record (or both) programs. It has nothing even remotely to do with making an FSI effective.



JonAult said:


> Doesn't mean I won't get back to it eventually


In the larger sense, it does. That is to say, if one does not have enough time on average to watch all the shows being recorded, then some of them are going to have to go. Again, this has nothing to do with personal preferences. It is simply an unavoidable fact. Now yes, KUID does an admirable job of seeing to it that one's most precious programs suffer the least danger of beng missed, but it does not insure the fact. You are missing the most important fact, however. The fact is you *DO* watch programs sooner or later. Unless you wish to watch them again (or another member of your family watches them separately), they then are no longer of interest. The exceptions to this are the place where KUID really shines. The point at hand, though, is over time the programs do get watched and then deleted either manually or automatically. Mathematically, if more programs are being recorded than are being watched, then some of them are going to be lost. Period. The TiVo offers one excellent tools (like KUID) to allow one to try to insure the "best" are the least likely to be lost, but none of that has anything to do with an FSI.

Assume for the moment every program is watched one and then deleted. If fewer recordings are being recorded than are being watched, then of course the TiVo will eventually and repeatedly get completely empty. I would think the latter is pretty unusual, but noneteless, if it is the case, then the user has an effectively infinite amount of time to watch any specific program, since no program will ever be deleted that has not already been watched. As the rate of recording increases, then eventutally the hypothetical equilibrium point would be reached where exactly as many programs are recorded as are watched. Beyond that, some programs are going to get deleted without watching them. It's inescapable. The situation is not gloom and doom, however, specifically because the programs are not all of the same value to the viewer. Some are of less importance and can be preferntially discarded. The important point, however is not that there will come a time when the loss will happen, but rather that the drive size will determine when that time comes. The larger the drive, the longer any non-KUID program will sit on the TiVo before it gets deleted. Again, this has nothing to do with personal preferences. It is simply a mathematical fact.

Now comes the personal part, if not necessarily an emotional one. The number of people in the TiVo's family and the amount of time they spend watching the recorded programs will vary greatly from one family to another. The viewing schedule also can have a significant impact, although over the long run it is the viewing rate, not the length of an average viewing hiatus which matters most. If the drive system is of a small enough size so that programs regularly "age out" of the drive before they have a chance to view them, then precious programs are going to be lost, no matter what. An FSI will not change this fact. Being overly arbitrary about setting KUID will cause it to happen much more frequently, however. Again, this is an inexorable fact, not a matter of personal preference. The bright side is getting a larger drive will increase the amount of time every non-KUID program stays on the system and increase the amount of time before KUID programs fill the drive so that no more programs will be recorded at all. More importantly, the larger drive need not have much affect on how long the viewing cycle - hiatus included - may be. At some point the drive size will become large enough so that one never, *NEVER* has to worry about worry about missing an important program due to age, no mater how much space isn't left. One may have to miss it because there simply is not enough time to watch all the important programs, but an FSI won't help, there. The salient point, however, is that a large enough drive will prevent programs from being inadvertantly missed no matter what the viewing habbits or the size of the family. The actual size of drive required to meet this need will inded vary considerably from family to family, but at some point the drive sytem will be big enough for any family.



JonAult said:


> I do want to know when the disk is getting full so I can take steps to keep the Tivo recording the programs I want to watch, whenever it happens to be convenient for me to do so.


Which means you have to remove the KUID from the programs you on which you originally had it set. Again, I can't stop you from doing whatever you want, but you would be better served to achieve your stated intent to not set KUID in the first place. You're free to choose to do things in a way that works against what you wish to achieve, but it doesn't mean your chosen means to the end is a well considered or optimally effective one.



JonAult said:


> (In some cases, that can be months later - I usually save up a bunch of episodes of one or two programs to watch over the summer when there normally isn't a lot getting recorded.)


That's my point. Your stated intent here - watchng batches of programs six months later - is not well served by indiscrimately setting KUID, nor is it engendered by an FSI. It doesn't have the effect you think it does. As it happens, I don't watch series in batches, but it's a moot point. I only have a literal handful of KUID programs on any of my three TiVos, but I have literally dozens of programs on them that are more than 6 months old. I don't have any Suggestins that are six months old, but scheduled programs, yes. This means the TiVos have not deleted any scheduled programs in more than 6 months, and on two of them more than a year. Please assimilate that. I record many hundreds of programs, but *it has been more than a year since two of my TiVos have deleted any scheduled programs*.

Edit: Oops! I do not mean to say that, at all. It's nonsense. What I meant to say is that it took both TiVos more than a year to decide the oldest shows on them were too old to keep.

They have never, ever deleted one before I wanted to watch it, in almost 11 years of TiVo ownership. I don't watch the Now Playing list like hawk, either. All I do is delete programs I don't want to watch, either because I finished watching them, have archived them, or just am not interested. Even that isn't strictly necessary, but it is tidier and more efficient, and pretty much guarantees I won't accidentally miss one program in a sea of already audited programs. None of my TiVos have less than 150 programs on them. I truly don't mean to offend in any way, but you are holding on very tightly to a complete misaprehension.



JonAult said:


> Yes, I could use the Deleted or Suggestions folders to do that, but why should I have to fool around like that? The TiVo should be making things easy for me, not asking me to fool around with such indirect methods.


You aren't listening. You don't have to do *ANYTHING*. You don't have to fool with *ANYTHING*. An FSI doesn't alow you to do what you think it does, and acting upon it doesn't offer you any advantage, irrespective of what your personal viewing habits are, unless your drive is too small to meet your personal needs. You can ignore how many programs are on the TiVo, how many are Suggestions, how may are deleted, and how much space can be used before the TiVo needs to delete a program. If you are obesssive about it, you can look to see which ones are oldest and how old they are to get a much better notion than any FSI meter ever will, but the fact is if you have a large enough drive, you don't need to worry about it at all. How much easier can it be than doing nothing whatsoever, not even thinking about it?



JonAult said:


> I don't know if it's worth it for TiVo to go back & add this to S3 or not, but I am looking forward to having it on my Premier when it shows up.


Feel free, but you are wasting your time and worrying yourself unnecesarily. That is not an assessment of how you shuold be watchihng TV. It is an assessment of the mathematics of storage management, specifically of a FIFO storage system like the TiVo.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

This is what I find amusing about the FSI debate. All those who say "we don't need it" because it is not useful then tell how they go about figuring out how much fee space they have. Hmm. Wonder why they use deleted folders or suggestions if free space is not an issue.

Just like if the bank didn't tell you your balance but told you only your transactions. You don't need to know the balance, just do the math!

Secondly, what the heck do most of you care? If you think it is useless, so what? It is useful for some of us. I think Bollywood movies are useless but they are there for those who use them. Netflix on my Tivo is useless cause my Roku is more responsive and easier to use, but I don't say that Netflix should be gone as some users us it on Tivo.

Every damned DVR has a free space indicator EXCEPT Tivo. Every computer has a free space indicator. Just because Tivo didn't put one in, it became a religious thing that it means nothing or it is not needed. Guess what, nothing stays static. Not your free space, not your bank account. Information is information. If you are so foolish to think that 14 hours of free space means you will always have 14 hours of free space no matter what you delete or record, then you are a moron and you probalby can't even work a Tivo.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

gweempose said:


> I've always been amazed when certain people who don't see a need for a free space indicator are so vehemently opposed to the idea that they insist that everyone else has no clue how to properly use their TiVos. Frankly, I find this attitude to be a bit pompous.


I am opposed to artifacts which encourage people to act against their own best interest out of ignorance. Whether the artifact is an unwisely lenient mottgage loan policy, ridiculously agressive and unrealistic investment advice, "X-ray" glasses in the back of a comic, or an FSI meter. More compassionately, I find it disheartening to see people squandering their own resources to achieve a goal they could reach much more effectively through less expensive means. Finally, it's the golden rule. If anyone sees me attemting to do something in a way that could be achienved more easily though a different approach, I would be much obliged if they would point it out to me. And, yes, that even means if someone thinks I could be more effective by posting differently in this forum, to anticipate the come-back.

More to the point, it isn't so much how to use one's TiVo, as it is understanding what the Tivo does. There is nothing any user, no matter who or what their viewing habits, can do with an FSI meter that cannot be done much more easily and much more effctively without the FSI meter, and in fact without the user ever even turning on the TV. Why encourage people to waste their time?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

lrhorer said:


> If anyone sees me attemting to do something in a way that could be achienved more easily though a different approach, I would be much obliged if they would point it out to me.


Instead of wasting time writing lengthy dissertations that nobody has the patience to read to the end, you could just simply state that you think that everybody else is stupid. Will have a same effect as the nonsense you write.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> This is what I find amusing about the FSI debate. All those who say "we don't need it" because it is not useful then tell how they go about figuring out how much fee space they have. Hmm. Wonder why they use deleted folders or suggestions if free space is not an issue.


I don't. It's an irrelevant fact.



TonyD79 said:


> Just like if the bank didn't tell you your balance but told you only your transactions. You don't need to know the balance, just do the math!


If I had an unlimited supply of money, that would be exactly correct. The drive on the TiVo is an unlimited resource, unlike the drive on a PC or a File Server. Even more aptly, the drive in my Tivo is very much like my bank account: The more there is in it, the better it is. An empty TiVo is just as useless as an empty bank account.



TonyD79 said:


> Secondly, what the heck do most of you care? If you think it is useless, so what? It is useful for some of us.


Except that it isn't. You could take a paint brush and paint a box with a red line in it on your TV and the information you obtained from it would be every bit as useful to you in managing the space on the TiVo. I don't know how else to express it. Deleting programs when the drive is full on a Tivo is precisely like replacing the gas tank on one's car because the fact it takes less gas to fill the tank means one is getting better gas mileage. One is deluding onesself if they think it is a means to the stated end.



TonyD79 said:


> I think Bollywood movies are useless but they are there for those who use them. Netflix on my Tivo is useless cause my Roku is more responsive and easier to use, but I don't say that Netflix should be gone as some users us it on Tivo.


Yes, but the existence of Netflix on TiVo doesn't encourage people to pay more for a Movie from Netflix than from Amazon because they think it makes a difference to the plot of the movie. Netflix on the TiVo is useless to *me* because *I* don't have Netflix, and am not particularly intereested in getting it (at least not at this time), but it is presumably useful to others. An FSI is not useful to anyone unless their drive system is undersized, the fact some people mistakenly think it offers them an advantage notwithstanding.



TonyD79 said:


> Every damned DVR has a free space indicator EXCEPT Tivo.


Every damned DVR needs a free space indicator except TiVo, or at least every one I have tried does. I love my TiVo for the things it doesn't need as well as for the things it has.



TonyD79 said:


> Every computer has a free space indicator.


'Not a good enough one. There are some 3rd party management utilites out there that are pretty good, though. The one I use is called DiskSizeManager. It does a pretty good job of allowing me to manage free space on my machines without too much input from me. The free space mangement utility on the Tivo completely blows DiskSizeManager away, however. I don't even have to be awake to take full advantage of it.



TonyD79 said:


> Just because Tivo didn't put one in, it became a religious thing that it means nothing or it is not needed. Guess what, nothing stays static. Not your free space, not your bank account. Information is information. If you are so foolish to think that 14 hours of free space means you will always have 14 hours of free space no matter what you delete or record, then you are a moron and you probalby can't even work a Tivo.


Buy a clue, will you? Zero hours of free space on the TiVo means you can record tens of thousands of hours of programs without ever missing an important one, and without ever worrying about how much space there is. You can even do it without ever deleting a single, solitary program yourself, although I don't recommend this tactic. If you have 14 hours of free space on your TiVo, then you have 14 hours of wasted space on your Tivo. Do yourself a favor and find 14 hours of programming to fill it up and let the TiVo keep it that way. Forget about having to make room on the TiVo, because extra room on the TiVo doesn't do anything useful.

I also suggest you quit trying to insult other people by disparaging their intelligence in one breath and proving yourself to be ignorant of the subject matter in the next.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

samo said:


> Instead of wasting time writing lengthy dissertations that nobody has the patience to read to the end, you could just simply state that you think that everybody else is stupid. Will have a same effect as the nonsense you write.


So insults are a better way of getting making one's point than a well reasoned argument? I'll have to remember that one. Yes, indeed.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> When will we get free space indicator for S3, HD, HD XL, like TiVo Premier?


Just get the Premiere model. I just hope they allow us to turn off that crap so it doesn't take up real estate on the screen. I have no need to know how much space is left on the TiVo. If the TiVo is doing it's job which they all do well. Plus what is the point of knowing the free space if I don't know how many recordings can fit there? It's impossible to know which is another reason it's worthless.

One hour of HD could be 3GB, 8.5GB or anywhere in between. A free space indicator is worthless unless I know the amount of space every recording will use. And that is not possible.

Now I can understand why some of the Cable company DVRs need a free space indicator. When you have a DVR that will stop recording that can be an issue since it will not put new content in the box. But that is also another reason in a long list why the CC DVRs are crap.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Just get the Premiere model. I just hope they allow us to turn off that crap so it doesn't take up real estate on the screen.


:up::up::up:



aaronwt said:


> Now I can understand why some of the Cable company DVRs need a free space indicator. When you have a DVR that will stop recording that can be an issue since it will not put new content in the box. But that is also another reason in a long list why the CC DVRs are crap.


Oh, yeah, no kidding! The SA 8300 running SARA software is just offal - and awful. The fact it only holds about 16 hours of HD content makes it triply worse.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Intelligent people can accept the fact that different people have different opinions. You don't need/want a FSI. We get it.

It's a shame you don't get the fact that other people have valid reasons for wanting such a feature. People have workarounds. Some people use third party programs like tivoplaylist. Others use the size of the recently deleted folder as a work around.

A lot of posters on TCF have upgraded their hard drives. I suspect the percentage of overall tivo customers who've upgraded their drives is relatively small. Those are the people who could use a FSI. A stock tivo can't record much more then 20 hours HD. After tivo deletes suggestions it will delete the oldest programs first. Makes sense for those of us with a 1T drive. Probably deleting a show that's been on our tivo for 6 months. Only a 20 hour tivo and shows a few weeks old may get deleted. Manually deleting shows makes more sense. Delete a HBO show that you can re-record multiple times in the coming months. Delete a show you've also recorded on another DVR in your house. Delete a show you want to watch, but is available on Hulu.

I don't need a FSI. My concern is our software may be frozen. I understand the new UI won't run (acceptably) on old hardware. I doubt there is such an issue with a FSI. It sounds like tivo may not be adding new features, even if our hardware can support it.



lrhorer said:


> More to the point, it isn't so much how to use one's TiVo, as it is understanding what the Tivo does. There is nothing any user, no matter who or what their viewing habits, can do with an FSI meter that cannot be done much more easily and much more effctively without the FSI meter, and in fact without the user ever even turning on the TV. Why encourage people to waste their time?





lrhorer said:


> Except that it isn't. You could take a paint brush and paint a box with a red line in it on your TV and the information you obtained from it would be every bit as useful to you in managing the space on the TiVo. I don't know how else to express it. Deleting programs when the drive is full on a Tivo is precisely like replacing the gas tank on one's car because the fact it takes less gas to fill the tank means one is getting better gas mileage. One is deluding onesself if they think it is a means to the stated end.
> 
> An FSI is not useful to anyone *unless their drive system is undersized*, the fact some people mistakenly think it offers them an advantage notwithstanding.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> It's called the suggestions folder, and it works just fine for many folks.


It doesn't for me - what a wonderful thing that not all of us have the same needs or wants. Makes life interesting 



> [rant] I just have never seen why people are so fixated on this, especially with current units with 1TB in them, darn it, I just don't care that much! [/rant]


I never understood why people feel so strongly about something they feel compelled to rant about it. Even with a 1TB drive, my S3 has fewer HD hours than my S1 had for SD hours. With HD 1TB isn't nearly as impressive.



> You don't have to say it's perfect, but it works, and I'd rather have them spend their resources


And here is the stupidest argument of all - waisting what resources? Obviously it wasn't that big of a deal since they finally added it to the ^&@!#$ interface!

Woot! Case closed. Those that don't want it can take their own previous advice and ignore it, and those of us who wanted it can now finally thank Tivo for adding the darn thing and life goes on.

Everyone wins!

Everyone is happy! OK, I know that will never happen - but everyone _can_ be happy now.

So be happy, darn it!


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Deleted Folder!!! Why do people not understand this can be used as a poor man's FSI?


But what is so hard to understand that I should not have to look at a folder and perform computations to at best estimate something?

I mean, that's what we have computers for! Tivo finally agreed and added the silly thing, so obviously it wasn't that big of a deal. The Tivo universe didn't suddenly implode! Tivo listened to their customers - woot! How nice of them!

I fail to see how this is a negative? What, the anti FSI people are sore it's now there? This is getting absurd....


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> What I don't understand is why people don't understand that an FSI tells the user virtually nothing whatsoever.


Stop assuming everyone uses Tivo the way you do. For me an FSI is very useful. It's not for you - so just ignore it.

Everyone wins!


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

gweempose said:


> I've always been amazed when certain people who don't see a need for a free space indicator are so vehemently opposed to the idea that they insist that everyone else has no clue how to properly use their TiVos. Frankly, I find this attitude to be a bit pompous.


Amen. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into another one of these threads - that's it, my final post in this one. Thanks for the perspective!


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Let's say Tivo added a FSI.
And this FSI shows 66% full (or 34% free space).

Explain to me how one would calculate how many more programs could be recorded before the disk gets "full".

The way I see it, you'd have to look at your NPL and count the number of shows you have on there. Let's say you have 100 programs. Now you have to do some math to figure out the ratio of used space to # of programs to determine how many _more_ programs you can record.

--OR--

You can just look at the recently deleted folder and get a quick estimate.

 I just don't get it, I suppose.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

It doesn't have to be presented as a percentage, even though I guess that's how the TP is doing it.

The software can already decipher the total number of recording hours available based on the size of the HDD. It wouldn't be rocket science to script code that takes total gigabytes minus "Now Playing" gigabytes and convert it back to hours remaining. That'd be my preference anyway.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

A percentage would be the better choice unless they added it as "you have up to ____ hours left". If you record 1 program in HD and 1 in SD that would throw off your recording hours in the Tivo.

Look at it like this:

1 HD hour = 7GB(rounded)
1 SD hour = 1.5GB (rounded)

So if you record 4 SD shows you still wouldn't use as much space as recording 1 HD show. The Tivo would almost have to have 2 indicators running to give you both HD and SD hours remaining(pretty much like it gives you your total number of hours in HD/SD in Sys. Info). Now I could see everyone complaining about that even more than not having one in the first place.



Random Tivo User said:


> Why does Tivo waste so much space with this stupid dual FSI? There is no reason to show both...


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The software already converts for both HD and SD consumption as well. So either way. Or show both. It's still easy.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> It doesn't have to be presented as a percentage.
> 
> The software can already decipher the total number of recording hours available based on the size of the HDD. It's not rocket science to script code that takes total gigabytes minus "Now Playing" gigabytes and convert it back to hours remaining.


I doubt presenting hours will ever happen. From TiVo's perspective, the argument against FSI has never been implementation costs - they've implemented it at least twice before from reports that have escaped. It's the support costs. It's the dealing with the complaints that "it told me I had 4 hours left and I only recorded 2 and it's deleting my shows already. I'm very upset!". That can easily happen with people who don't understand TiVo's disk allocation strategy fully, and since nobody outside of TiVo understands the strategy fully, it's going to happen.

So I'm somewhat surprised they are giving us FSI at all, but I don't expect they'll ever give us hours remaining. Fuzzy percentages are the most we should expect.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Yep, that's all well and good. Both methods give fuzzy results, so there's no exact science no matter what you do.

I was answering the question "For those who want an FSI..." So I was answering in the context of a consumer who wants it, not necessarily as one interested in Tivo's POV. We are demanding bastards, and that's ok too. That's how progress is made.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Yeah, but who does that? More to the point, who watches all but 15 minutes of a bunch of shows and then lets them sit unwatched for two months or more?


Well the order _could_ be the other way around. They let them sit for two months then watched the first 45 minutes or so.

But like I said I was playing Devil's Advocate, and basically I agree with you. I don't personally care if I have a free space meter, I doubt I'd ever use it. But, especially if you don't have a "sufficiently large drive" I can see where they'd be of use to some people.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

DocNo said:


> But what is so hard to understand that I should not have to look at a folder and perform computations to at best estimate something?
> 
> I mean, that's what we have computers for! Tivo finally agreed and added the silly thing, so obviously it wasn't that big of a deal. The Tivo universe didn't suddenly implode! Tivo listened to their customers - woot! How nice of them!
> 
> I fail to see how this is a negative? What, the anti FSI people are sore it's now there? This is getting absurd....


You misread my post. I'm not against an FSI. What I was saying is how many people say use the Suggestions Folder as a FSI, and then people say 'but I don't use suggestions'. So my post was why don't people use the RD Folder instead?

This would all be solved by an FSI. I know that, and I agree.

OTOH, I have a 750GB drive, so I basically solved my problem years ago.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> Well the order _could_ be the other way around. They let them sit for two months then watched the first 45 minutes or so.
> 
> But like I said I was playing Devil's Advocate, and basically I agree with you. I don't personally care if I have a free space meter, I doubt I'd ever use it. But, especially if you don't have a "sufficiently large drive" I can see where they'd be of use to some people.


on my old single tuner 240 model with a 40 gig drive - I had to manage free space constantly
on my TiVo S2 DT I put a 500 gig drive in and my Tivo HD I put a 1 TB drive in I am not worried about free space management much at all. It usually consists of deleting something I recorded for whatever reason but now know I will never watch for various reasons.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

astrohip said:


> So my post was why don't people use the RD Folder instead?
> 
> This would all be solved by an FSI. I know that, and I agree.
> 
> OTOH, I have a 750GB drive, so I basically solved my problem years ago.


I don't like a full RD folder. Periodically I purge progrms from my RDF. A full RDF means tivo will remove a program from RDF every time tivo records a new show. Tivo purges the oldest recorded show. Makes no sense. I'm far more likely to want to restore a program I deleted yesterday, no matter when I recorded it, then a a program I deleted a month ago.

A FSI makes sense for customers with stock drives.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

gweempose said:


> I've always been amazed when certain people who don't see a need for a free space indicator are so vehemently opposed to the idea that they insist that everyone else has no clue how to properly use their TiVos. Frankly, I find this attitude to be a bit pompous.


Yes, exactly. You get the same response if you say using suggestions is a waste of time, or that you like to watch live TV, or you want QAM mapping, etc.

Apparently there is only One True Way to use a Tivo, and anyone that doesn't is a complete and utter fool. Or something like that.


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## porges (Feb 28, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, exactly. You get the same response if you say using suggestions is a waste of time, or that you like to watch live TV, or you want QAM mapping, etc.
> 
> Apparently there is only One True Way to use a Tivo, and anyone that doesn't is a complete and utter fool. Or something like that.


It's in response to an earlier version of this thread -- by which I mean between 5 and 10 years ago -- that one forum member added to his sig: "Proud to use my TiVo wrong."


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

steve614 said:


> I don't need a FSI. When my "deleted" folder gets below "10", I know I need to intervene to avoid losing something I want to watch.
> How would a FSI make that any easier?


My Tivo Series 3 and TivoHD must work differently from yours. Things that go into my "deleted" folder usually disappear in a day, despite both Tivos having 1 TB HDs and *lots* of suggestions recorded. Are you turning off your suggestions to keep the deleted items around? I'm just curious.


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## dbenrosen (Sep 20, 2003)

bmgoodman said:


> My Tivo Series 3 and TivoHD must work differently from yours. Things that go into my "deleted" folder usually disappear in a day, despite both Tivos having 1 TB HDs and *lots* of suggestions recorded. Are you turning off your suggestions to keep the deleted items around? I'm just curious.


No, they work the same. TiVo deletes stuff in the Recently Deleted folder before deleting anything else. If you've had your TiVo with 1TB for a while and Suggestions on, the drive is full (your scheduled recordings plus suggestions). Once you delete a program, it goes in the RD folder until the next recording (either a scheduled or suggestion) at which time it is removed from the RD folder.

As an aside, this is one of my biggest annoyances with the Recently Deleted folder. Unless I turn off Suggestions, the RD folder is useless except to immediately recover something I accidentally deleted. If I realize in a couple of hours that someone else in the family hadn't watched it, it is usually too late to recover it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> My Tivo Series 3 and TivoHD must work differently from yours. Things that go into my "deleted" folder usually disappear in a day, despite both Tivos having 1 TB HDs and *lots* of suggestions recorded. Are you turning off your suggestions to keep the deleted items around? I'm just curious.


Yes, I have suggestions turned off, but if I didn't, I would be using the suggestions folder in combination with the RD folder to get my space estimates.
As it stands now, I have about 10 shows in my suggestions folder to act as a buffer just in case, but I really have nothing to worry about since I have a 1TB drive in my Tivo.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Tivo adding a FSI. I just don't see the point because it wouldn't change how I manage my recordings. And so far, the people who want it haven't explained how it would help them make things any easier. Like I said before, I guess I just don't "get it".
Right now, I'd much rather Tivo spend the resources to fix bugs, not add fluff.


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## pakostevens (Aug 25, 2003)

I mainly want an indicator of how much space my current "do not delete" programs are taking up.


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## Airhead315 (Jun 11, 2009)

Maybe the FSI should indicate when the Tivo will run out of free space based on the current recording schedule. 

The only time I really worry about free space is when I am going away on vacation. If the TiVo reports that it will run out of free space halfway through my vacation then I have a problem, if the date is sometime later then I dont have a problem.


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

And the beat goes on... Just think, in a couple of months we can do this again and again and again


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Just wait, someone else will post in the QAM mapping thread...


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

Less recording space dictates more attention to space available. Designed with a ridiculously small hard drive, the FSI should have been included in the Series 3 models. Appears to be a moot point now.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Airhead315 said:


> The only time I really worry about free space is when I am going away on vacation. If the TiVo reports that it will run out of free space halfway through my vacation then I have a problem, if the date is sometime later then I dont have a problem.


But it will only EVER tell you this if you keep everything keep until I delete..

I have a huge portion of my recordings this way, but if I kept *everything* this way I'd get nag screens up the wazoo.. so I 'risk' it (even with expanded drives).. Though now that I'm downloading things like music shows to computer, it's less of a problem.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but on some systems (TWC) suggestions have been disabled. There may be a work around for that using the recently deleted folder, but it's a pain and the only real way to get a value from that is to look at each recording to see what quality setting it was recorded with, or how much space it is using.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pakostevens said:


> I mainly want an indicator of how much space my current "do not delete" programs are taking up.





Airhead315 said:


> Maybe the FSI should indicate when the Tivo will run out of free space based on the current recording schedule.


And this is why they never bothered until now. Everybody has a different idea of what an FSI should be. My idea is simply how much space is not used by current recordings (not counting sugg & deleted).



Stormspace said:


> I've mentioned this elsewhere, but on some systems (TWC) suggestions have been disabled.* There may be a work around for that using the recently deleted folder, but it's a pain* and the only real way to get a value from that is to look at each recording to see what quality setting it was recorded with, or how much space it is using.


I'm confused. What's the difference between using Suggestions or using the Recently Deleted folder? Why is the RD folder a pain, but suggestions not?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

astrohip said:


> And this is why they never bothered until now. Everybody has a different idea of what an FSI should be. My idea is simply how much space is not used by current recordings (not counting sugg & deleted).
> 
> I'm confused. What's the difference between using Suggestions or using the Recently Deleted folder? Why is the RD folder a pain, but suggestions not?


Suggestions are recorded at the default quality. The RD folder can have differing quality recordings in it.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Suggestions are recorded at the default quality. The RD folder can have differing quality recordings in it.


Since analog will be disappearing in the near future, this is somewhat moot.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

The number of recordings in my recently deleted folder is my free space indicator. But frankly, since upgrading my drive, I haven't worried about it.


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

I have a TB drive and never delete anything, stuff ages off after, like, 4 weeks. Is there any way to get it to default to "keep this recording" so I don't have to click through that choice at the end of every program? THAT would be a great feature add....


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

gweempose said:


> Since analog will be disappearing in the near future, this is somewhat moot.


Which is why an FSI is needed.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

jeffw_00 said:


> I have a TB drive and never delete anything, stuff ages off after, like, 4 weeks. Is there any way to get it to default to "keep this recording" so I don't have to click through that choice at the end of every program? THAT would be a great feature add....


You set that in the Season Pass. KUID is an option, you just need to make certain you set the number of recordings to a level you can manage, otherwise the shows will stop recording when you reach that limit.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Which is why an FSI is needed.


I don't use the FSI on my PXL. I have like 250 shows in recently deleted and counting. I don't need a FSI.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

b_scott said:


> I don't use the FSI on my PXL. I have like 250 shows in recently deleted and counting. I don't need a FSI.


HD programming varies in size based on the quality of the transmission, right? That's the way I understood it, so not every 1 hour show uses the same amount of space. You may have 200 SD shows and 50 HD ones with the HD at varying levels of quality, so it's not an elegant solution.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Meh. I don't use the FSI on my Premiere, and never worried about it on my Series2 and Series3. I know for a fact that both of those are PACKED full at 100&#37;, since I let the DVRs manage themselves. I use the Premiere more often, so when I finish watching a show, I may hit delete, or I may not. I'm not an archiver, so once I'm done watching, I let the DVR clean up when it's ready to...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Meh. I don't use the FSI on my Premiere, and never worried about it on my Series2 and Series3. I know for a fact that both of those are PACKED full at 100%, since I let the DVRs manage themselves. I use the Premiere more often, so when I finish watching a show, I may hit delete, or I may not. I'm not an archiver, so once I'm done watching, I let the DVR clean up when it's ready to...


On My modded S2's I'm like this as well. Very seldom do I worry about space. However on the THD which is a stock TiVo DVR I did worry about it, epecially when TWC disabled suggestions. Now that I've sworn off of HD I'm worry free again, but that may not always be the case.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Suggestions are recorded at the default quality. The RD folder can have differing quality recordings in it.





Stormspace said:


> HD programming varies in size based on the quality of the transmission, right? That's the way I understood it, so not every 1 hour show uses the same amount of space. You may have 200 SD shows and 50 HD ones with the HD at varying levels of quality, so it's not an elegant solution.


I'm not sure how often this would be an issue. Perhaps it depends on the viewer.

99.9% of what I record/watch is HD (and obviously digital). The RD Folder works well as a poor man's FSI, although with a 750GB drive, it's not a big issue. I don't use Suggestions at all.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> HD programming varies in size based on the quality of the transmission, right? That's the way I understood it, so not every 1 hour show uses the same amount of space. You may have 200 SD shows and 50 HD ones with the HD at varying levels of quality, so it's not an elegant solution.


I don't use any SD channels. Yes, HD varies by up to about 50%, but even with that I can probably have around 200 in my recently deleted. I only ever have at most 20 shows in my now playing list. I just actually watch them.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Did we really have to waste space on TCF for this thread? And would anyone really want Tivo to waste their energy on this? I'm kinda surprised that they put it on the Premiere. We really did not need it. Finish the HD menus... that would be better time spent.

Maybe a space indicator to show how much wasted space this thread took. Now that would be something.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

magnus said:


> Did we really have to waste space on TCF for this thread? And would anyone really want Tivo to waste their energy on this? I'm kinda surprised that they put it on the Premiere. We really did not need it. Finish the HD menus... that would be better time spent.


It was a highly-requested feature dating back many years, possibly all the way back to the S1. So yes, people want it.

As far as wasting space for this thread, it seemed to have fallen into the bitbucket back in May until you (and now I) brought it back to life. Thread necromancy for the win.


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## Chuckster1953 (Sep 8, 2008)

When I had a room mate a few years ago, we had Dish Network and their dvr's which had FSI showing in hours how much space you had available.. It was one of the first things I looked for shortly after I starting to use my TiVo and was dissappointed it didn't have one as that seemed such a basic thing to have as do achive some shows of interest. 

Any way, I cannot remember how it was exactly formated, but here would be my suggestion: A simple hours table with:

"FREE" "DELETED" "USED" "WEEK 1" "WEEK 2" across the top and 
"BEST" "HIGH" "MEDIUM" "BASIC" on the left side

At a glance you would have an estimate of what is free, what was used, and what is coming up for each quality level.

CHUCK


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Chuckster1953 said:


> When I had a room mate a few years ago, we had Dish Network and their dvr's which had FSI showing in hours how much space you had available.. It was one of the first things I looked for shortly after I starting to use my TiVo and was dissappointed it didn't have one as that seemed such a basic thing to have as do achive some shows of interest.
> 
> Any way, I cannot remember how it was exactly formated, but here would be my suggestion: A simple hours table with:
> 
> ...


There is no Best, High, Medium, basic unless you are using analog. And the number of analog channels are decreasing every month as cable systems switch to mostly didgital channels. And since channels and providers have different bit rates for their porgrams, it would serve no purpose to put an estimate for the amount of hours. It would be very inaccurate. Having a percentage of the space available is the most accurate thing you can have.

On my cable system, all channels are digital, there are no analog channels. Comcast, the largest cable provider is in the process of eliminating 95% or more of their analog channels. And even then there is a digital version of those analog channels. So if you have a cable card, which you would with a TiVo, you will be watching the digital version.


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## V7Goose (May 28, 2005)

There is no doubt that lots of people want this feature, you can see that just by looking at this thread. And yes, they have been asking for it for many years. I think it is simply because they don't understand any other way to figure it out.

Frankly, I do care a lot about how much space I have left, but I do not want nor would I ever look at a special FSI. My S3 has 2TB of storage, and I keep it virtually full of things I want all the time. At any point in time I have about 600+ movies on my S3 waiting for me to copy them to DVD, and if I do not do a couple a day I run out of space pretty quick. I rarely set the Keep Until function 'cause it just is not worth the effort, but I NEVER want the TiVo to delete something just because it is old! 

I do not allow Tivo suggestions. The solution, as others have already said, is simply to occasionally glance at how many programs are in the Recently Deleted folder. Even though the individual programs range anywhere from a 30 min SD news broadcast to a 4 hour HD movie, I have found that is unimportant. If I see the RD count falling below 50, I know I am going to be at risk soon. In general, I try to manage the total recordings so that the RD count is around 150 or higher, and that is all I need to know. 

It is actually pretty darned easy to figure out an average file size for an hour of recording and then an average program length for the things they usually record. That makes it simple to come up with a starting point for the minimum number of deleted programs they should watch for. But I guess for some people it is just too much effort for them to actually figure out what number of deleted programs will give them a comfortable buffer zone for how they use their TiVo. Hence they clamor for TiVo to give them something else to look at.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

What V7Goose said. I have suggestions turned on, so I just look at how many of those I've got. If you don't have suggestions turned on, just look at how many things are in your deleted items folder.

I've got 209 things in my suggestions folder, plus 200+ shows I actually recorded (I'm too lazy to count). ie, lots of space left on my HD's 1TB drive. Now, on my 80gig S2DT, I have... 9 suggestions, so I tend to have to manage the space on that one more carefully. Transfer stuff to my HD or PC, or watch some shows.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I know... just having fun. 

But I still don't see why Tivo needed to waste development time on this. Get the damn menus completed first and then worry about the frilly free space indicator.



smbaker said:


> As far as wasting space for this thread, it seemed to have fallen into the bitbucket back in May until you (and now I) brought it back to life. Thread necromancy for the win.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

magnus said:


> But I still don't see why Tivo needed to waste development time on this. Get the damn menus completed first and then worry about the frilly free space indicator.


S3s don't have any new menus to complete.


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