# Watchmen - S01E02 "Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship" 10/27/2019 *spoilers*



## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Another episode with more buildup but no real payoff yet.

Random thoughts and questions...

The reveal about Judd wasn't totally unexpected since it was hinted that he had a dark past (so to speak). Did the world's smartest man go slightly bonkers? Or why is Veidt staging bad plays about Dr. Manhattan with his clone army? And who picked up Will Reeves with the giant electro-magnet?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I'll give it one more. Because it's not just TV, it's...

As someone who knows -zero- about Watchmen--no comics, no movie, no background awareness, nada--I'm finding this less than interesting. It moves at a glacial pace, and to the unlettered viewer, just seems like a random collection of very weird scenes. There are some really good actors, and an occasional scene that draws you in, but for the most part it's just outlandish and slow. I can handle both a deliberate pace and a story that seems both odd and disconnected (eg, Westworld), but there needs to be some meat, some reason to keep with it. You need there to be compelling characters, or a story that draws you in, or something. And I'm not feeling it yet.

I realize I'm clearly the outlier here, maybe because I'm not familiar with the core material, or maybe it's just not my cup o' tea. And because it's HBO, I'll stick with it for now. Curious what the ratings will be, as I tend to believe there will be many more like me (the great unwashed masses).


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I'm at the opposite end. I thought episode 2 was outstanding and am absolutely loving it. The energy of the episode and the flow was just great. I love what they are doing with Hooded Justice and it seems more and more likely to me that it's going to turn out it's Will and they whitewashed his character. It's not _exactly _the meta-comic that the Black Frigate was but it's still pretty clever. I saw a few fun references to the comic and movie and I'm sure I missed more.

So far, two episodes in a row now, I've learned something pretty interesting about history. First the Tulsa Massacre and now the WW1 propaganda.

Interesting that there's a backstory about technological regression and technophobia but they still have DNA testing, voice recognition, etc.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

logic88 said:


> Did the world's smartest man go slightly bonkers?


He was always bonkers. He thinks genocide and a creating an "_extraterrestrial" squid was a good idea.

I enjoyed the second episode. The slow build up and character development is intriguing. I'll definitely watch the rest the season._


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

cbrrider said:


> He was always bonkers. He thinks genocide and a creating an "_extraterrestrial" squid was a good idea.
> 
> I enjoyed the second episode. The slow build up and character development is intriguing. I'll definitely watch to rest the season._


Those sound bad, but hardly as bonkers as unnecessarily creating a tomato tree.


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## OhFiddle (Dec 11, 2006)

As someone who didn't read the comics, I feel like I must be missing something as well. I did watch the movie not long after it came out but all I remember at this point is: I definitely saw it, it was based on a comic, it was long, something about nuclear energy, and there was a giant naked blue guy in it. So far the HBO show is holding my attention, but it does seem like a bunch of disjointed little stories that will hopefully all come together at some point. I'm fine with that as I don't mind shows that are unconventional and slightly confusing at first. I was beginning to fear though that this might be like *Legion, *which I really wanted to like and gave it two seasons. That show I felt like you either had to be already familiar with the source material or be really high to fully enjoy it. I alternated between being confused and falling asleep, so I ended up just giving up on it. I was kind of relieved to see *Watchmen *was going to be a one and done, so that it doesn't turn into another Legion situation for me.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> Those sound bad, but hardly as bonkers as unnecessarily creating a tomato tree.


Hey, if you like tomatoes, been living as a recluse for the last 30 years, and have the genetic engineering resources to make a tree, why not?


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

logic88 said:


> Another episode with more buildup but no real payoff yet.
> 
> Random thoughts and questions...
> 
> The reveal about Judd wasn't totally unexpected since it was hinted that he had a dark past (so to speak). Did the world's smartest man go slightly bonkers? Or why is Veidt staging bad plays about Dr. Manhattan with his clone army? *And who picked up Will Reeves with the giant electro-magnet?*


"I have friends in high places."

Hahah, well played, old guy.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I'm at the opposite end. I thought episode 2 was outstanding and am absolutely loving it. The energy of the episode and the flow was just great. I love what they are doing with Hooded Justice and it seems more and more likely to me that it's going to turn out it's Will and they whitewashed his character. It's not _exactly _the meta-comic that the Black Frigate was but it's still pretty clever. I saw a few fun references to the comic and movie and I'm sure I missed more.
> 
> So far, two episodes in a row now, I've learned something pretty interesting about history. First the Tulsa Massacre and now the WW1 propaganda.
> 
> Interesting that there's a backstory about technological regression and technophobia but they still have DNA testing, voice recognition, etc.


Yeah, seeing her answer a landline phone with a cord was a bit odd. I took it as they don't trust (certain) technology, butt who nose?


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Interesting that there's a backstory about technological regression and technophobia but they still have DNA testing, voice recognition, etc.


...in-car GPS systems (as seen in episode 1), flat-screen TVs, anti-gravity model-building kits... kind of seems like everyone's fine with everything except cell phones and personal computers.

The fact that it was the FCC that issued the viewer warning about "American Hero Story" was a good "authoritarian government" detail. (The fact that it was rated "TV-X" instead of "TV-MA" was a good "alternate timeline" detail.)


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Yeah, seeing her answer a landline phone with a cord was a bit odd. I took it as they don't trust (certain) technology, butt who nose?


There's more detail about the technophobia on the HBO supplemental site "Peteypedia" -- note that those contain spoilers under this site's definition since they are extra material not seen in the episode.


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> I love what they are doing with Hooded Justice and it seems more and more likely to me that it's going to turn out it's Will and they whitewashed his character. It's not _exactly _the meta-comic that the Black Frigate was but it's still pretty clever. I saw a few fun references to the comic and movie and I'm sure I missed more.


It sounds like they are pulling from _Before Watchmen_ as well. I haven't read that yet but I should probably get around to it.


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## Hoffer (Jun 1, 2001)

I find I like the episodes. I listen to this movie podcast, that has done a spoiler talk about the first two episodes. I find I then enjoy the episodes more after listening to the podcast. They talk about details I didn't notice, absorb or have a clue is related to anything.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

OhFiddle said:


> I was kind of relieved to see *Watchmen *was going to be a one and done, so that it doesn't turn into another Legion situation for me.


I didn't realize it was a one and done. Where did you see that?


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

3D said:


> I didn't realize it was a one and done. Where did you see that?


I believe Lindelof has said in interviews that season 1 is self-contained and won't end in a cliffhanger. But that doesn't mean HBO won't greenlight more seasons, with different storylines.

Edit:

'Watchmen': Damon Lindelof Suggests His HBO Drama May Last Only One Season



> As for the television series, Lindelof and his team have envisioned the first season - and beyond that? There may not be any more. At the least, Lindelof said he views the coming season as a complete story, not unlike the _Watchmen _graphic novel.
> 
> "One of the things that makes the original perfect is those 12 issues are designed with a beginning, middle and end in mind," he said. "They knew exactly what they were doing. We knew we had to do the same. We plotted these nine episodes with every mystery and question being resolved. I sometimes have a different sense of resolution than others, but we wanted it to feel immensely satisfying. We didn't want it to end with [a cliffhanger] for season two."


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

logic88 said:


> I believe Lindelof has said in interviews that season 1 is self-contained and won't end in a cliffhanger. But that doesn't mean HBO won't greenlight more seasons, with different storylines.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 'Watchmen': Damon Lindelof Suggests His HBO Drama May Last Only One Season


Thanks. I'll take it with a grain of salt. There was a show a few years back from Christopher McQuarie where they said the same thing (I believe it was called Persons Unknown). Turned out to only be partially true. Also, I'm a Lost defender, but Lindeloff doesn't have the best track record with those kinds of promises. My guess is the major storylines will be resolved but I would not be surprised if there are developments later in the season that leave us hanging.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

3D said:


> Thanks. I'll take it with a grain of salt. There was a show a few years back from Christopher McQuarie where they said the same thing (I believe it was called Persons Unknown). Turned out to only be partially true. Also, I'm a Lost defender, but Lindeloff doesn't have the best track record with those kinds of promises. My guess is the major storylines will be resolved but I would not be surprised if there are developments later in the season that leave us hanging.


He has done things since Lost. Notably: The Leftovers, which had fairly self-contained seasons that got better and better.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

True, and I loved the Leftovers (and like I said, I'm a Lost defender). Also one of the few who really enjoyed Prometheus, so I'm a fan of his work. That said, I don't know whether he ever made any statements about the self-containment of The Leftovers. I'm only saying he's been known to misdirect through public statements.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TAsunder said:


> Interesting that there's a backstory about technological regression and technophobia but they still have DNA testing, voice recognition, etc.





trainman said:


> ...in-car GPS systems (as seen in episode 1), flat-screen TVs, anti-gravity model-building kits... kind of seems like everyone's fine with everything except cell phones and personal computers.


And holograms, X-ray goggles, electromagnet hovercrafts, cloned humans, tomato trees, etc.


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

This show is one that does require a little extra from the viewer than the average tv show. 
It helps to watch YouTube reviews or listen to a podcast devoted to the show. 
You develop a more full interest in the show an can enjoy it once you do. 
I think show producers are making more shows like this that are very dense and do not dumb the story down to network standards. 
Here is a good podcast for this show.

Series Regular


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> There's more detail about the technophobia on the HBO supplemental site "Peteypedia" -- note that those contain spoilers under this site's definition since they are extra material not seen in the episode.


I'm enjoying it, but I think I would be absolutely lost (and not enjoying it), without the above. Knowing what happened between the Novel/Movie, and now, made a massive difference in my ability to comprehend what was going on. Otherwise I would agree with everyone who has said that it seems like a disjointed series of scenes about random people. Just the a quick summary of events between the Squiddening/BlueBallening and now helped a lot.


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## logic88 (Jun 7, 2001)

Ratings took a small dip. I wonder when it will hold steady (or even increase)?

TV Ratings: 'Watchmen' Episode 2 Dips, Still Draws 1.3 Million Viewers


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

EWiser said:


> This show is one that does require a little extra from the viewer than the average tv show.
> It helps to watch YouTube reviews or listen to a podcast devoted to the show.
> You develop a more full interest in the show an can enjoy it once you do.
> I think show producers are making more shows like this that are very dense and do not dumb the story down to network standards.





kdmorse said:


> I'm enjoying it, but I think I would be absolutely lost (and not enjoying it), without the above. Knowing what happened between the Novel/Movie, and now, made a massive difference in my ability to comprehend what was going on. Otherwise I would agree with everyone who has said that it seems like a disjointed series of scenes about random people. Just the a quick summary of events between the Squiddening/BlueBallening and now helped a lot.


I think there is a difference between a dense show, that's not dumbed down, and a show that almost forces one to use extracurricular material. Most viewers are *not* going to do anything but watch the show. If the show isn't comprehensible as-is, they'll drop it. A small percentage of those viewers are more active, reading online reviews, participating in forum, talking to others. While none of that is necessary to watch the show, it fleshes it out, gives it some color, with background info and maybe a little insight into things they didn't know, or weren't obvious to the oblivious. That's me. And an even smaller subset does it all--podcasts, supplemental sites, etc. There won't be enough of this type of viewer to sustain a show on a long-term basis.

If a series can't be fully enjoyed without belonging to group #3, it's doomed.



logic88 said:


> Ratings took a small dip. I wonder when it will hold steady (or even increase)?
> 
> TV Ratings: 'Watchmen' Episode 2 Dips, Still Draws 1.3 Million Viewers


See my rant above . Either the show starts to become more watchable to the average HBO viewer, or the ratings will slide until they hit the bedrock number for a show like this (core viewers regardless).


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I haven't read the comics for it but I do listen to a podcast about it and started to read a lot of stuff about it. Which is 1/2 the fun of it I think.

But to those that said this seems like a bunch of random stories going on at the same time and would lose people, it's only episode 2 so even the average viewer should/would just expect that these story lines to come together at some point.

Isn't that how most mystery type shows like this work?


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

OhFiddle said:


> ... I was beginning to fear though that this might be like *Legion, *which I really wanted to like and gave it two seasons. That show I felt like you either had to be already familiar with the source material or be really high to fully enjoy it. I alternated between being confused and falling asleep, so I ended up just giving up on it. I was kind of relieved to see *Watchmen *was going to be a one and done, so that it doesn't turn into another Legion situation for me.


I wasn't familiar with the source material for Legion but I really like that show and wish that it had gone on for a few more seasons. Enjoying Watchmen so far and I recently read the comic (haven't read a comic book in 30 years) and it does help having that background, and I'm enjoying the easter eggs


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> I wasn't familiar with the source material for Legion but I really like that show and wish that it had gone on for a few more seasons.


There really wasn't any source material for Legion. It was loosely (VERY loosely!) based on the comic book character of the same name, but most of the show's characters and situations were original.

Nothing like Watchmen, where the TV show is a direct sequel to the comic book series.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I haven’t been commenting because I don’t know what I think so far. The story moves extremely slowly. What we’ve seen in two weeks could’ve been done in one and felt better. 

I absolutely loathe needing to do research to watch a tv show. If you can’t tell the story in your show, you’ve failed. So far I don’t feel that I need extra material but I’ve read the original several times, watched the movie a few times and even watched the stop action version of the comic twice. And read Before Watchmen. (I’m waiting to read Doomsday Clock as a binge when all 12 issues are out.)

But it doesn’t really feel like Watchmen to me. Yes, there are references and continuity tie ins but the feel is off. Watchmen was about super heroes and costumed vigilantes. So far, this has been about a cop who just puts on a mask so the bad guys don’t come after her. 

I’m giving it time. Mostly out of loyalty to the original. It’s not a waste of time but I also haven’t been looking forward to watching it either.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I'll give it one more. Because it's not just TV, it's...
> 
> As someone who knows -zero- about Watchmen--no comics, no movie, no background awareness, nada--I'm finding this less than interesting. It moves at a glacial pace, and to the unlettered viewer, just seems like a random collection of very weird scenes. There are some really good actors, and an occasional scene that draws you in, but for the most part it's just outlandish and slow. I can handle both a deliberate pace and a story that seems both odd and disconnected (eg, Westworld), but there needs to be some meat, some reason to keep with it. You need there to be compelling characters, or a story that draws you in, or something. And I'm not feeling it yet.
> 
> I realize I'm clearly the outlier here, maybe because I'm not familiar with the core material, or maybe it's just not my cup o' tea. And because it's HBO, I'll stick with it for now. Curious what the ratings will be, as I tend to believe there will be many more like me (the great unwashed masses).


I'm with you. I find it hard to follow too. I'll give it one more. I like the first episode, and I felt it had some promise. After the second one, I'm just bored and confused.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

I like shows that don’t follow the typical drama (or comedy) formula. 
I like HBO’s Watchmen


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I heard a podcast by a TV critic where they mentioned Watchmen and one of the guys said something to the effect of "A lot of people who are watching Watchmen are confused about what's going on and think that they need to have read the graphic novel in order to understand everything. But that's not true. The show is just intended to be confusing and presumably it will all come together at some point, but these early episodes are designed to be disorienting."


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I heard a podcast by a TV critic where they mentioned Watchmen and one of the guys said something to the effect of "A lot of people who are watching Watchmen are confused about what's going on and think that they need to have read the graphic novel in order to understand everything. But that's not true. The show is just intended to be confusing and presumably it will all come together at some point, but these early episodes are designed to be disorienting."


That's one heck of a way to get an audience, confuse them, make them feel stupid. Yeah, that should work. Especially when you hide it behind the moniker of "quality TV". Sorry, there are literally thousands of choices for TV viewing and I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out what the heck I just watched. I'll just move on to something I understand and enjoyed more. Now, I'm not saying this won't get better at some point. The question for me is, how much time will I have to "invest" before that happens. And the case of a show based on a graphic novel, it's natural that people who didn't read the GN (which includes me) will get the feeling they are "missing" something by not reading it. FWIW I had the same feeling with Game of Thrones as well, but the storyline was easy enough to follow that even if you didn't understand every last detail of the what was in the books. I'm not finding this is the case here.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> That's one heck of a way to get an audience, confuse them, make them feel stupid. Yeah, that should work. Especially when you hide it behind the moniker of "quality TV". Sorry, there are literally thousands of choices for TV viewing and I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out what the heck I just watched. I'll just move on to something I understand and enjoyed more. Now, I'm not saying this won't get better at some point. The question for me is, how much time will I have to "invest" before that happens. And the case of a show based on a graphic novel, it's natural that people who didn't read the GN (which includes me) will get the feeling they are "missing" something by not reading it. FWIW I had the same feeling with Game of Thrones as well, but the storyline was easy enough to follow that even if you didn't understand every last detail of the what was in the books. I'm not finding this is the case here.


Wasn't that like every season in Lost?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> Wasn't that like every season in Lost?


Well after S3, definitely  Notice the pattern there? Same writer.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Well after S3, definitely  Notice the pattern there? Same writer.


Really good TV? sure


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MikeMar said:


> Really good TV? sure


Lost grabbed me from E1, this, not so much. I had the same problem with The Leftovers, another of his. Made it through about a season before I realized it wasn't for me. I probably won't last as long with this unless it grabs me.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Lost grabbed me from E1, this, not so much. I had the same problem with The Leftovers, another of his. Made it through about a season before I realized it wasn't for me. I probably won't last as long with this unless it grabs me.


Really interesting, being a person that hasn't read the graphic novel and kinda just knew very roughly what it was about (I saw the movie, but that's different enough and I haven't seen it in many years)
I LOVED the first ep a ton, I was sucked in right away, regardless of knowing what was really going on


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeMar said:


> Really interesting, being a person that hasn't read the graphic novel and kinda just knew very roughly what it was about (I saw the movie, but that's different enough and I haven't seen it in many years)
> I LOVED the first ep a ton, I was sucked in right away, regardless of knowing what was really going on


Yeah, I find the show very gripping and eventful, although I'm pretty steeped in the comics so my experience isn't going to be very typical.

Then again, I'm me, so my experience is pretty much never very typical...


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## EWiser (Oct 2, 2008)

This is not a show you can fold clothes too. There are more shows out there if you want a simpler show there are plenty more out there. No one is forcing you to like it. The comic wasn’t an easy read either.


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