# Good Bye TiVo



## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, after being a TiVo subscriber for 13 years, I am fed up with their shoddy product and shoddy customer service and dumping my remaining 3 DVRs (I had 6 and have recently dumped 3) and going with either Roku or Apple TV and Time Warner Cable DVRs. The final straw was when I had recently set a hockey game (a Stanley Cup semi-finals game) to record while I was at work and when I got home, ready to watch a game I had been anticipating all day, I was greeted with a black screen and an error message. Ironically, the channel (NBCSN) worked just fine on a different TV that didn't have a TiVo DVR connected. This isn't the first problem I've had with a TiVo DVR. I spent literally several months (more than 4, all told) helping TiVo TS troubleshoot a problem and what did I get in response? Two subscription-free months for the defective DVR and two TiVo supervisors giving me conflicting information as to whether or not my defective DVR would be replaced. One said sure, no problem while the other said I would have to jump through a few more troubleshooting hoops before a decision would be made on how to proceed. Apparently 4 months of hoop jumping wasn't enough for her. 
So, I'm done. I'm done with having to deal with the CableCard issues and the tuning adapter issues and I am done having to pay $20 a month/DVR for a product that has become more of a headache than anything. Ironically, when it's all said and done, I will be paying more for Apple TV or Roku and the TWC DVR than if I were to stay with TiVo but I don't care. If it means paying a couple bucks more a month to have the peace of mind knowing that when I set a channel to record while I am at work, my program will be ready for viewing when I get home, then so be it. 
One word of advice TiVo: Study the customer service practices of Verizon Wireless and mirror those. They actually care about their customers - something you might want to consider if you want to stay in business. 

Buh Bye


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> Well, after being a TiVo subscriber for 13 years, I am fed up with their shoddy product and shoddy customer service and dumping my remaining 3 DVRs (I had 6 and have recently dumped 3) and going with either Roku or Apple TV and Time Warner Cable DVRs. The final straw was when I had recently set a hockey game (a Stanley Cup semi-finals game) to record while I was at work and when I got home, ready to watch a game I had been anticipating all day, I was greeted with a black screen and an error message. Ironically, the channel (NBCSN) worked just fine on a different TV that didn't have a TiVo DVR connected. This isn't the first problem I've had with a TiVo DVR. I spent literally several months (more than 4, all told) helping TiVo TS troubleshoot a problem and what did I get in response? Two subscription-free months for the defective DVR and two TiVo supervisors giving me conflicting information as to whether or not my defective DVR would be replaced. One said sure, no problem while the other said I would have to jump through a few more troubleshooting hoops before a decision would be made on how to proceed. Apparently 4 months of hoop jumping wasn't enough for her.
> So, I'm done. I'm done with having to deal with the CableCard issues and the tuning adapter issues and I am done having to pay $20 a month/DVR for a product that has become more of a headache than anything. Ironically, when it's all said and done, I will be paying more for Apple TV or Roku and the TWC DVR than if I were to stay with TiVo but I don't care. If it means paying a couple bucks more a month to have the peace of mind knowing that when I set a channel to record while I am at work, my program will be ready for viewing when I get home, then so be it.
> One word of advice TiVo: Study the customer service practices of Verizon Wireless and mirror those. They actually care about their customers - something you might want to consider if you want to stay in business.
> 
> Buh Bye


And your telling us this because.....


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## Joey Bagadonuts (Mar 13, 2006)

lessd said:


> And your telling us this because.....


Well, as a 13+ year subscriber to TiVo and owner of, at times 6+ TiVo DVRs, I felt somewhat of a responsibility to share my frustrations with other TiVo subscribers and provide some insight into what they (you) are getting yourselves in to. TiVo has turned a blind eye to the likes of Time Warner constantly feigning ignorance in dealing with CableCards. Hell, even when I filed a formal complaint with the FCC about the cable company refusing to allow me to self install a couple of CableCards, they blew me off. When even the Feds don't take a company like TiVo seriously, that tells me it's time to move on.

I'm pretty sure you weren't forced to read the thread but, you've asked a fair question and I have provided what I feel is an equally fair response.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I guess you never, for a moment considered it was TWC that was the source of your problems and suggested that TWC make their system work correctly and credit you for services you did not receive? 

Seems to me TWC is the one you should be venting at, not giving more money to.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Seems like your problem is with Time Warner and their handling of third party merchandise. You did exactly what they wanted. They made it difficult to use a Tivo with poor cablecard support and faulty tuning adapters, so you dump the Tivo and put more money in Time Warners pockets. Bravo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes I would say Time Warner as well. I've been with TiVo for almost twelve years and have used over twenty TiVos between DirecTV, Comcast, and FiOS. And have not run into the problems the OP has. My TiVo DVRs have been more reliable during those twelve years than the Comcast and FioS DVRs are during a several month period. My neighbors Comcast and FiOS DVRs miss more recordings over several months than all my TiVos combined have ever missed during those twelve years.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

I feel your pain. After laying out over $1100 for a premiere and an XL I had nothing but lookups, reboots and missed recordings. TiVo blamed FIOS until they couldn't deny the fact any longer that they rushed out the Premire half baked.

Their answer? They'll replace my 3 month old boxes. With REFURBS!!!

F-you TiVo, how's about taking some of those lawsuit winnings and hiring some competent engineers?

Like you I went with a "generic" DVR from my MSO (that was free) and have not had a single problem at all.

Trust me, you'll never look back.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> Well, as a 13+ year subscriber to TiVo and owner of, at times 6+ TiVo DVRs, I felt somewhat of a responsibility to share my frustrations with other TiVo subscribers and provide some insight into what they (you) are getting yourselves in to. TiVo has turned a blind eye to the likes of Time Warner constantly feigning ignorance in dealing with CableCards. Hell, even when I filed a formal complaint with the FCC about the cable company refusing to allow me to self install a couple of CableCards, they blew me off. When even the Feds don't take a company like TiVo seriously, that tells me it's time to move on.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you weren't forced to read the thread but, you've asked a fair question and I have provided what I feel is an equally fair response.


TiVo is a flyspeck compared to Times Warner so I have a problem with you saying TiVo turned a blind eye to the likes of Time Warner, if TiVo was the size of Microsoft, I would be more likely to agree with you, but you bring up one valid point, cable cos, left on their own, could put TiVo out of business, I am with Comcast and started using cable cards in 2006, never had any problem, don't have any cable card problems now, Comcast has a simple special tel number to pair your cable cards so moving a cable card to another TiVo is a few minute job, I can't speak for other cable cos. but my system is great and gives me no frustration as your experiencing.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Never had a lick of trouble with Verizon FIOS and my S3's. Verizon tech support has always been exemplary whenever I had problems and they always resolved them quickly. I'm not a huge fan of Tivo's customer support, but it sounds like your issues were with Time Warner and not Tivo.


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

I hate to pile it on but i also feel your cable card issues were with time warner cable .Cable companies like to hassle customers and blame tivo because they WANT YOU TO DROP THE TIVO AND GET THERE DVR!!!!!! And i've noticed cable companies that use tuning adapters seem to have more problems with tivos than those that dont have the TAs! In 13 years of using tivo i have never had a problem with either directv or verizon fios,2 companies that DONT USE tuning adapters!


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## WO312 (Jan 24, 2003)

Guys, guys, guys. Sure, his problem is probably with TWC. What the F is he supposed to do??? Sue them?? All he wants is a reliable device. i don't blame him.

Having said that, I have both Tivo and the TWC DVR. I never use the TWC because it is so lame compared to the Tivo. But it is totally reliable (I use it to record critical shows as back-up). And it gets On-demand content, which I use occasionally (like when the Tivo misses a recording, or I see something good that I never recorded), and PPV, which I never use.

My Tivo service with TWC has been pretty good. My main headache is with my Tivo HD and the TA having the program data run out, so I have to put my TA on a timer. THAT I blame Tivo on. I have no such problem with my Tivo P4 and TA.


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

Could the problem be the new TWC lineup change ? I read in another thread here on the tivo community about TWC doing a lineup change.Sorry if some of us seemed to jump on you but speaking for my self I have been pretty much happy with tivo and hate to see someone dump tivo for a cable dvr. And to be fair i am being a little bit of a hypocrite here as i am debating switching and going back to directv,mainly beacuse i want the 5 tuner genie and hoping to get nba league pass and NFL sunday ticket for free this fall. I just cant afford to buy new tivos anymore,unless the new rumored tivo really has 6 tuners and a price less than $300.00 Even then i i probably wont get it because the lifetime service would bring the price up over$700.00 .


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Every time I've had a snafu with reception on any of my TiVos using CableCARDS (beginning the original S3, an HD and now an XL4), it's ALWAYS been the cableco's fault. I'm not saying it's never TiVo's fault, but my guess (uneducated though it may be) is that this is another in a loooong list of cable companies who don't give a $hi! about the customers.

The latest problem was with some Starz channels that now require Mediacom to pair the cards to the machine. Their field techs had absolutely NO CLUE what to do and, even though they were instructed to bring extra CableCARDS (from their social media liaison with whom I was dialogging), did not get the instructions to do so. The guy I was chatting with (who is in Florida) ended up solving the problem from there after a week of frustration.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> Well, as a 13+ year subscriber to TiVo and owner of, at times 6+ TiVo DVRs, I felt somewhat of a responsibility to share my frustrations with other TiVo subscribers and provide some insight into what they (you) are getting yourselves in to.


Sharing your misplaced blame is not being responsible.



> TiVo has turned a blind eye to the likes of Time Warner constantly feigning ignorance in dealing with CableCards. Hell, even when I filed a formal complaint with the FCC about the cable company refusing to allow me to self install a couple of CableCards, they blew me off. When even the Feds don't take a company like TiVo seriously, that tells me it's time to move on.


 What does an FCC complaint about TWC not allowing you to self install cablecards have to do with Tivo? It's just more misplaced blame.


> I'm pretty sure you weren't forced to read the thread but, you've asked a fair question and I have provided what I feel is an equally fair response.


Not really. It seems you have a problem figuring out who to blame for your problems.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

WO312 said:


> Guys, guys, guys. Sure, his problem is probably with TWC. What the F is he supposed to do??? Sue them?? All he wants is a reliable device. i don't blame him.
> 
> Having said that, I have both Tivo and the TWC DVR. I never use the TWC because it is so lame compared to the Tivo. But it is totally reliable (I use it to record critical shows as back-up). And it gets On-demand content, which I use occasionally (like when the Tivo misses a recording, or I see something good that I never recorded), and PPV, which I never use.
> 
> My Tivo service with TWC has been pretty good. My main headache is with my Tivo HD and the TA having the program data run out, so I have to put my TA on a timer. THAT I blame Tivo on. I have no such problem with my Tivo P4 and TA.


The above is the best answer I have seen to the OP, but the OP should not project his problems on all TiVo users, like using the words* that what TiVo users are in for * has no basis of truth because of the OP problem, his problem and other like it do cause many people just to take the cable cos DVR in the first place, and not have the possibility of this type of problem, for them, the DVR stops working, cable guy comes out and installs another, no unforeseen expense on your part. As for me, I have had TiVo for 12 years and I can sell on E-Bay, so I can keep my TiVo upgrade cost in check, and I can repair most TiVo problems myself, with little cost, I am sure many of this forum can do the same, but the wider world can't or don't want the bother.


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

I can appreciate your frustration and I've had problems with my Tivo units, as well. 

That said, I got a special offer for a free cable DVR (Motorola). Say what you want about Tivo - the cable boxes are so much worse. Hold on to your Tivos until you've actually lived with the cable company box for a month or so. 

Those of you who have had a problem free experience with Tivo: I'm happy for you. Not all of us are so lucky. Those of you who think any problems with Tivo must be the users' fault: Maybe you should be working in tech support. In the meantime, enjoy listening to Rush.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Emacee said:


> Those of you who think any problems with Tivo must be the users' fault: Maybe you should be working in tech support. In the meantime, enjoy listening to Rush.


No one said it was the users fault. The blame lies with TW. I have no idea what that last sentence means.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I'll have to speak up and state that my 13 years of experience with TiVo's has been positive (2 S1's originally and now 2 S3's) when used with Comcast. We've had CableCards for 6 years now and any issues with them have always been on Comcast's side. Luckily those have been relatively few. 

Calling TiVo a shoddy product is taking it to the extreme even given the frustration with your issue which as others have mentioned is more than likely on TW's side. My brother has a TiVo HD and a Comcast DVR and he's had to replace the Comcast DVR 3 times in the past 2 years and one of those was a brand new unit so his experience with the cable DVD has not been very good so far. I hope your experience with the TW DVR is better.

Scott


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

WO312 said:


> Guys, guys, guys. Sure, his problem is probably with TWC. What the F is he supposed to do??? Sue them?? All he wants is a reliable device. i don't blame him.
> .


Its very simple. One should call TWC and advise them that you do not intend to pay for services until such time that they are delivered. Force TWC to fix their problem or leave.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

celtic pride said:


> I hate to pile it on but i also feel your cable card issues were with time warner cable .Cable companies like to hassle customers and blame tivo because they WANT YOU TO DROP THE TIVO AND GET THERE DVR!!!!!! And i've noticed cable companies that use tuning adapters seem to have more problems with tivos than those that dont have the TAs! In 13 years of using tivo i have never had a problem with either directv or verizon fios,2 companies that DONT USE tuning adapters!


Why do the cable companies care if you use their DVRs? Several people say that they are free when compared to Tivo. So, again.... Why would the cable company care if you're using a Tivo then?


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

jcthorne said:


> Its very simple. One should call TWC and advise them that you do not intend to pay for services until such time that they are delivered. Force TWC to fix their problem or leave.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=476691

5 different MSO's mentioned including OTA. Guess what the common denominator is?


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## scole250 (Nov 8, 2005)

Joey Bagadonuts, have you used a TWC DVR before? They stink. I had their "Signature Home Service" with whole house DVR. Supposed to be high support. It was the same support, except I had special number I could call, a person would answer right away, but they knew nothing, did not really do support. They just answered the phone and put me on the same hold queue as the other folks. Their hardware is flaky too. I had to reboot their DVR at least once a week. The UI stinks. The remotes had to be pointed directly at the DVR to work. Try the TWC DVRs before you get rid of your Tivos.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

magnus said:


> Why do the cable companies care if you use their DVRs? Several people say that they are free when compared to Tivo. So, again.... Why would the cable company care if you're using a Tivo then?


TWC DVRs are not free they cost $22.50 each per month in my area, more if you rent their "whole Home" versions which are only dual tuners.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Time Warners business plan is working perfectly. Ignore all support for third party products and people will be forced to use yours. They win. Game over.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> TWC DVRs are not free they cost $22.50 each per month in my area, more if you rent their "whole Home" versions which are only dual tuners.


LOL! So naive!


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

It's comical how defensive you guys get when someone points out that a Ferrari, while an awesome car, is not a good daily driver. Way more than most people need and ya'll are quick to blame the dealer when you get a bill for a $1400 tune up cause they run like **** most of the time.

Hint: It's not the dealers fault....


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> LOL! So naive!


I guess I have no idea what you are talking about. I stated what TWC charges for DVRs in my area, what is funny or naive about that?


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> It's comical how defensive you guys get when someone points out that a Ferrari, while an awesome car, is not a good daily driver. Way more than most people need and ya'll are quick to blame the dealer when you get a bill for a $1400 tune up cause they run like **** most of the time.
> 
> Hint: It's not the dealers fault....


Yea, there's no way it's Time Warner's fault. 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316313&highlight=time+warner+tuning+adapter


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Never had a lick of trouble with Verizon FIOS and my S3's. Verizon tech support has always been exemplary whenever I had problems and they always resolved them quickly.


I had little trouble w/my TiVo HD w/FiOS (Verizon then Frontier) for ~1.5 years.

The stock hard drive either went bad or got corrupted so I don't use it anymore.

I did have a big problem (what looked like a massive channel outage) that I and a few others here and TC dealt w/when we found out (after the fact) that our "outage" was due to VZ turning on copy protection on most channels w/o telling us. They hadn't paired our cards since it wasn't necessary, hence the outage.

This was before my VZ FiOS area was sold/spun off to Frontier.

Now have been using my TiVo HD w/CableCARD and Comcast for almost 2 years, w/o issue.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Absolutely the DVRs are NOT free....anywhere that I know of and certainly not in our service area (Mediacom). You don't pay for the hardware (if that's what you mean), but you certainly pay for the service. The only time it might be free is if it's a promotion which usually expires after a year or two...


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> Calling TiVo a shoddy product is taking it to the extreme even given the frustration with your issue which as others have mentioned is more than likely on TW's side. My brother has a TiVo HD and a Comcast DVR and he's had to replace the Comcast DVR 3 times in the past 2 years and one of those was a brand new unit so his experience with the cable DVD has not been very good so far. I hope your experience with the TW DVR is better.
> 
> Scott


I have to say that the I agree with the original poster that the *Tivo Premiere* is a shoddy product. It's still really slow, the menus remain unfinished more than 2 years after it's release, it is subject random reboots and loss channels and recordings - and this has been reported by numerous people using different cable providers with or without tuning adapters. Also, the OTA tuners are substandard in comparison to it's predecessor. Add to that Tivo's poor customer relations and inadequate tech support, I can definitely see why anyone would make fast break to better solution for themselves.

Given all this though I still do like Tivo though.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Actually it's been more than 3 years since its release. If you add in the time it took to get it to be "release ready" and it's been over 5 YEARS.

So, after 5 years it still loses channels, locks up, reboots, misses recordings, loses audio and still has unfinished menus. 

Yea, no way a generic box can compare to that!


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mrsean said:


> I have to say that the I agree with the original poster that the *Tivo Premiere* is a shoddy product. It's still really slow, the menus remain unfinished more than 2 years after it's release, it is subject random reboots and loss channels and recordings - and this has been reported by numerous people using different cable providers with or without tuning adapters. Also, the OTA tuners are substandard in comparison to it's predecessor. Add to that Tivo's poor customer relations and inadequate tech support, I can definitely see why anyone would make fast break to better solution for themselves.
> 
> Given all this though I still do like Tivo though.


My Personal opinion is the Premiere is long past needing a hardware update however the original poster's alternative was a TWC DVR the only reason that will be an improvement is because TWC will stop intentionally causing problems but there DVR is nothing to be happy you have to use.

It is true that the OTA tuners in the Premiere do not deal with multi-path issues as well as the ones in my Series 3 units. However I have the same issues with my newer Silicon Dust HDHomeRun OTA tuners as I do with the Premiere and I read the same complaints about the tuners in CM 7400 OTA DVR versus the tuners in the older CM/Dish OTA DVR seems like newer should be better but it is not ending up that way.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mrsean said:


> I have to say that the I agree with the original poster that the *Tivo Premiere* is a shoddy product. It's still really slow, the menus remain unfinished more than 2 years after it's release, it is subject random reboots and loss channels and recordings - and this has been reported by numerous people using different cable providers with or without tuning adapters. Also, the OTA tuners are substandard in comparison to it's predecessor. Add to that Tivo's poor customer relations and inadequate tech support, I can definitely see why anyone would make fast break to better solution for themselves.
> 
> Given all this though I still do like Tivo though.


If by sub-standard tuners you mean it picks up all of the same channels that my S3 boxes did at my house and picks up the same channels at my GFs house that her S3 boxes currently do. Then I guess that is sub-standard.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> the only reason that will be an improvement is because TWC will stop intentionally causing problems


LOL!! Oh, come on...


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> If by sub-standard tuners you mean it picks up all of the same channels that my S3 boxes did at my house and picks up the same channels at my GFs house that her S3 boxes currently do. Then I guess that is sub-standard.


"It's still really slow, the menus remain unfinished more than 2 years after it's release, it is subject random reboots and loss channels and recordings"

You forgot to mention these reasons....


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> "It's still really slow, the menus remain unfinished more than 2 years after it's release, it is subject random reboots and loss channels and recordings"
> 
> You forgot to mention these reasons....


Not all of us have these problems. The only reboot I had was 1 time over a year ago. I haven't lost channels or recordings.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

I just have to say that I like some of the user names on this thread. Especially E. Norma.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> Actually it's been more than 3 years since its release. If you add in the time it took to get it to be "release ready" and it's been over 5 YEARS.
> 
> So, after 5 years it still loses channels, locks up, reboots, misses recordings, loses audio and still has unfinished menus.
> 
> Yea, no way a generic box can compare to that!


If you're unhappy with TiVo then you should definitely go to another solution. I don't generally experience any of the problems you mention and the "unfinished menus" don't bother me so I'm very happy with my Elite.

So long.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nrc said:


> If you're unhappy with TiVo then you should definitely go to another solution. I don't generally experience any of the problems you mention and the "unfinished menus" don't bother me so I'm very happy with my Elite.
> 
> So long.


Most people should not be going to the so called "unfinished menus" many times a year, for most never after initial setup and cable card pairing. I know people on this forum like to see what is going on with SNR etc. but most users don't.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

Who cares if not all the menus are in HD! They do the job, right?! I didn't buy TiVo to look at HD menus, I bought it for its functionality. I have a Premiere 45 hour, XL4, Mini, and Stream. Mine work fine, just as they were intended to, a good Whole Home set up. And guess what, I have TWC! Which BTW, I am not thrilled about, but I am stuck with them, unless I want to go with satellite, which I don't. With the bundling of TV, internet, & phone, it much cheaper than having a dish on the roof.

Remember that the ones with problems are the ones who are complaining and moaning. If it works fine, rarely are you going to hear from them. Look at Yelp, UrbanSpoon, and other ratings and review places. More often than not, people go there to air their complaints, less often to praise.

If TiVoCommunity was an accurate sample of TiVo users, I doubt they would still be in business. And we have the regular TiVo bashers, who love to say anything negative they can about TiVo. Why some of them are still here on TC, I don't understand!


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Davisadm said:


> If TiVoCommunity was an accurate sample of TiVo users, I doubt they would still be in business. And we have the regular TiVo bashers, who love to say anything negative they can about TiVo. Why some of them are still here on TC, I don't understand!


They just like to share.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Davisadm said:


> I have TWC! Which BTW, I am not thrilled about, but I am stuck with them


TiVo should sue them.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

nrc said:


> If you're unhappy with TiVo then you should definitely go to another solution.


I did, and so did the original poster. You guys are the ones that are getting all defensive about it....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> I did, and so did the original poster. You guys are the ones that are getting all defensive about it....


We use this forum to learn, not be defensive, if you had found another co that just came out with a TiVo equivalent (never mentioned before) that would be informative, just leaving TiVo not so much, as I am sure many people leave TiVo, just look at their churn rate, if everybody that left TiVo posted on this forum.....


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Davisadm said:


> Remember that the ones with problems are the ones who are complaining and moaning. If it works fine, rarely are you going to hear from them.


TiVo lost over 72,000 stand alone subs last year, 22,000 last quarter alone.

That's over 200 people a day that are cancelling because they are having NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!!! 

Think about it, that's one person every 8 minutes, 9 people EVERY HOUR, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year that are running for the exits. 

Oops!! There goes another sub in the time it took to type this post...

Yea, there's no problem with the hardware. It's all Time Warner's fault!!! LOL!!!l


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

lessd said:


> We use this forum to learn, not be defensive


The OP was told flat out that it was his MSO's fault after stating VERY CLEARLY that between Him, TW and TiVo that it is CLEARLY the TiVo that was at fault.

Exactly how many times does your MSO have to pay for a truck roll to try to fix something they ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY FROM?

AFAIC TW goes above and beyond trying to pound a square peg into a round hole to please its customers.

How is that "learning" anything? And don't bother trying to deny the fact that 90% of the people that responded went into MSO attack mode.

That's about as "defensive" as it gets.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Can we please stop feeding the trolls?


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

innocentfreak said:


> Can we please stop feeding the trolls?


LOL!!! We're playing the "troll" card now!!!


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> LOL!!! We're playing the "troll" card now!!!


You are very bitter. If you left TiVo, why are you here?


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Davisadm said:


> You are very bitter. If you left TiVo, why are you here?


Bitter? How does pointing out facts make me "bitter"?

I'm not the one that's emotionally attached to an inaminate object and feels the need to defend it at all costs. This site is FULL of posts pointing out the warts of this product.

Just because I don't use my TiVo's doesn't mean I "left"

I payed my $1400, I have an opinion. An extremely unpopular one, but I've yet to have anyone prove me wrong.

Just saying...


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> TiVo lost over 72,000 stand alone subs last year, 22,000 last quarter alone.
> 
> That's over 200 people a day that are cancelling because they are having NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!!!
> 
> ...





E. Norma Stitz said:


> Bitter? How does pointing out facts make me "bitter"?
> 
> I'm not the one that's emotionally attached to an inaminate object and feels the need to defend it at all costs. This site is FULL of posts pointing out the warts of this product.
> 
> ...


What makes you bitter is the fact that you spent $1400 and regret your purchase so you go from thread to thread here spouting off about the same thing over and over with a snarky attitude. You make things up and pass them off as fact (no where in the OP was it CLEARLY determined to be a defective Tivo, the OP actually pointed out dealing with CC and TA issues - those would be TW problems as many have pointed out...oh and TW going above and beyond? Yea, go check out the link I posted earlier with almost 200 pages of TW customer complaints), generalize what's posted here as being true for all Tivo users (not everyone is having problems with their Tivos as has also been stated or there would be millions of posters complaining), and pick and choose which facts you present meanwhile ignoring anything that doesn't support your argument (yes Tivo lost 22k stand alone subs but they also gained 277k MSO subs in that same time, those MSO subs which use the same hardware/software as the Premiere). Frankly, no one wants to deal with you, it's really that simple. And yes, as much as you hate to admit it, you are a troll. You've contributed nothing of value in anything you've posted this year and have only taken every opportunity to take digs at Tivos whether it's faulty hardware, the features, or just the size of the hard drive. You take shots at other posters here trying to get a rise out of them to make yourself look superior. That is the definition of a troll.

Oh, and you can go ahead and make some smart ass reply and that's fine. I'm done, I've put way more time into addressing you than you deserve.

/Ignore


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> TiVo lost over 72,000 stand alone subs last year, 22,000 last quarter alone.
> 
> That's over 200 people a day that are cancelling because they are having NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!!!
> 
> ...


It doesn't mean they are all cancellations. A lifetime sub will fall off at some point too. Which will also show up in that same number of lost subscriptions.

My GF has two of my old S3 lifetime boxes that I got in 2006. She uses them every day. But I don't think she is counted as a subscriber any more.


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## scole250 (Nov 8, 2005)

If Norma wants to pay TWC to use their DVR, that's his option. Though if he's happy with a TWC DVR, I'm not sure why he rags on Tivo instead of explaining why he likes the TWC DVR. I've used them. They stink.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> I am done having to pay $20 a month/DVR for a product that has become more of a headache than anything.


You definitely should have gone lifetime.


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## Davisadm (Jan 19, 2008)

WhiskeyTango said:


> What makes you bitter is the fact that you spent $1400 and regret your purchase so you go from thread to thread here spouting off about the same thing over and over with a snarky attitude. You make things up and pass them off as fact (no where in the OP was it CLEARLY determined to be a defective Tivo, the OP actually pointed out dealing with CC and TA issues - those would be TW problems as many have pointed out...oh and TW going above and beyond? Yea, go check out the link I posted earlier with almost 200 pages of TW customer complaints), generalize what's posted here as being true for all Tivo users (not everyone is having problems with their Tivos as has also been stated or there would be millions of posters complaining), and pick and choose which facts you present meanwhile ignoring anything that doesn't support your argument (yes Tivo lost 22k stand alone subs but they also gained 277k MSO subs in that same time, those MSO subs which use the same hardware/software as the Premiere). Frankly, no one wants to deal with you, it's really that simple. And yes, as much as you hate to admit it, you are a troll. You've contributed nothing of value in anything you've posted this year and have only taken every opportunity to take digs at Tivos whether it's faulty hardware, the features, or just the size of the hard drive. You take shots at other posters here trying to get a rise out of them to make yourself look superior. That is the definition of a troll.
> 
> Oh, and you can go ahead and make some smart ass reply and that's fine. I'm done, I've put way more time into addressing you than you deserve.
> 
> /Ignore


Thank you WhiskeyTango. I'm getting sick of her posts popping up everywhere moaning and complaining. TC is supposed to be a place that helps fellow TiVo owners.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Davisadm said:


> You are very bitter. If you left TiVo, why are you here?


Trying to figure out that one myself, but haters gonna be haters.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

MPSAN said:


> I just have to say that I like some of the user names on this thread. Especially E. Norma.


I liked some of his other names on other boards too, but this one is definitely the best. But I do miss the Little DB one.

When he had his issues with his Premieres and (I think) Time Warner, it helped me decide to stay with DirecTV and keep my S2s over switching to Time Warner. If TWC sold our area to another cable provider I would probably dump DTV in a heartbeat.


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## rlcarr (Jan 18, 2003)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> One word of advice TiVo: Study the customer service practices of Verizon Wireless and mirror those. They actually care about their customers - something you might want to consider if you want to stay in business.


Why are you trying to make us collapse in unending hysterical laughter?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

lessd said:


> Most people should not be going to the so called "unfinished menus" many times a year, for most never after initial setup and cable card pairing. I know people on this forum like to see what is going on with SNR etc. but most users don't.


There are still a couple of main areas that need to be updated. i.e. Wish Lists and Browse By Channel. Also the Amazon and Web Video apps are in serious need of an upgrade. The settings menus probably don't matter to most people, but it is a bit strange when some of them flop back and forth. Like the Video Providers menu. You have to navigate through a couple of SD menus to ultimately land on an HD menu. Can be a little jarring.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

CuriousMark said:


> I liked some of his other names on other boards too, but this one is definitely the best. But I do miss the Little DB one.
> 
> When he had his issues with his Premieres and (I think) Time Warner, it helped me decide to stay with DirecTV and keep my S2s over switching to Time Warner. If TWC sold our area to another cable provider I would probably dump DTV in a heartbeat.


Sup, Mark!!!

I never had TW, I was a long time DTV/TiVo sub, loved it, but went HD with Cablevision/Premire and finally FIOS/Premiere.

Nothing but problems... Wife finally called DTV herself and had us "reinstated" and had them send a couple of HR24's she managed to negotiate for free. We just want something that recorded a show when we asked it to without all the lookups, reboots, etc.

I just made a killer deal for 2 Genies by "committing" for 2 years and couldn't be happier.

I don't remember "Little DB" but I went through so many of them...

Personally, "Richard Cranium" was my all time favorite.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> Exactly how many times does your MSO have to pay for a truck roll to try to fix something they ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY FROM?


So you don't think the $100+ a month he pays them for the privilege of watching their channels is enough?



E. Norma Stitz said:


> AFAIC TW goes above and beyond trying to pound a square peg into a round hole to please its customers.


TWC has show plenty of disdain for CableCARDs in the past. They were even fined $20,000 by the FCC in 1997 for purposefully trying to hinder access of CableCARDs to their programming. The ONLY reason they even offer tuning adapters is because they are required to by law, and they still make installation and setup as difficult as possible to push people towards their own DVR instead.

In many other regions, with different MSOs, CableCARDs and tuning adapters work exactly as they are suppose to with few, if any, problems.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> So you don't think the $100+ a month he pays them for the privilege of watching their channels is enough?


By that reasoning I should call DirecTV and demand a truck roll the next time my Hulu or Roku acts up. I mean , what am I paying $100+ a month for, right? 



Dan203 said:


> TWC has show plenty of disdain for CableCARDs in the past. They were even fined $20,000 by the FCC in 1997 for purposefully trying to hinder access of CableCARDs to their programming. The ONLY reason they even offer tuning adapters is because they are required to by law, and they still make installation and setup as difficult as possible to push people towards their own DVR instead.
> 
> In many other regions, with different MSOs, CableCARDs and tuning adapters work exactly as they are suppose to with few, if any, problems.


Once again, if you choose to buy a Ferrarri from a KIA dealer, and use it as a daily driver, it's kind of silly to get mad at the dealer for charging you $1400 for a tune up and giving you a KIA for a "courtesy" car.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> By that reasoning I should call DirecTV and demand a truck roll the next time my Hulu or Roku acts up. I mean , what am I paying $100+ a month for, right?


Not even close to the same thing. TWC is required by law to support 3rd party devices via CableCARDs. These devices are certified by an industry group called CableLabs, which includes members from TWC. If there was a problem with the TiVo hardware it should have been caught during the certification process. Once a device is certified then it should work with ALL MSO's CableCARDs and Tuning Adapters. To further help support this system the FCC also requires that all cable company leased equipment uses CableCARDs too. They're pre-setup and usually locked behind a little door, but all of their own DVRs have the exact same CableCARD you'd install in a TiVo. They do not use Tuning Adapters, as they're allowed to use internal hardware for 2-way communication, but the TA should be using the same basic equipment as their own boxes.

Not to mention CableCARDs have been available since 2007 and TAs since 2009, so they've had plenty of time to figure this stuff out. If they still can't get it working then it's either intentional or incompetence, either way it's their own damn fault if they have to keep rolling trucks.

One more point of data proving it's TWC and not TiVo... People in TWC areas with Media Center PCs using CableCARD tuners have just as many problems getting them setup and with intermittent issues with the TA. So like I said TWC is either doing it on purpose to push people to their equipment or they're incompetent, either way it's their fault not TiVo's.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

mattack said:


> You definitely should have gone lifetime.


Yep. I've gone lifetime on all my TiVos (except the DTiVo that used in the past, where I couldn't get lifetime). I passed the breakeven point for lifetime on all of them, some of them ages ago.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Verizon Wireless caring about customers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

Joey Bagadonuts said:


> Well, after being a TiVo subscriber for 13 years, I am fed up with their shoddy product and shoddy customer service


Well on the positive side it only took 13 years for you to deal with the problem and take decisive action so as to avoid prolonged annoyance. At this rate you might be poised to dump your cable provider for someone better in is as little time as a decade from now. Maybe get a better trash company in 20 years' time and fix all the other problems with dodgy service providers by the time NASA puts a human on Mars.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Not even close to the same thing. TWC is required by law to support 3rd party devices via CableCARDs. These devices are certified by an industry group called CableLabs, which includes members from TWC. If there was a problem with the TiVo hardware it should have been caught during the certification process.


Wow, I laughed so hard reading this milk squirted out of my nose!

Considering all the problems third-party devices are having, I'd say the certification process is a joke. Or the law is a joke. It's clearly missing something important if there are all these issues. Why else would an installer being 5 CableCards with the hope that one of them will work? Why do people have to play CSR roulette just to find someone who knows what they are doing? (sarcasm alert!)

And I'm sure the tuning adapter has gone through the same rigorous certification process as the CableCards have. Oh wait....

If all the cable companies boxes have to use the same CableCard and SDV, how come they can do so flawlessly yet Tivo continues to have problems? (sarcasm alert!)

The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.

It's sad, and a catch-22. Very few people care, so the issues never get fixed, so people don't buy Tivos, which mean even fewer people will care, etc.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> And I'm sure the tuning adapter has gone through the same rigorous certification process as the CableCards have. Oh wait....


They don't.



BobCamp1 said:


> If all the cable companies boxes have to use the same CableCard


Partly because the FCC either refuses to enforce their regulations or believes the song and dance show when the Cable cos. claim they are in compliance.



BobCamp1 said:


> ... and SDV, how come they can do so flawlessly yet Tivo continues to have problems? (sarcasm alert!)


Beyond some minimal requirements, there are no standards for SDV access.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> Wow, I laughed so hard reading this milk squirted out of my nose!
> 
> Considering all the problems third-party devices are having, I'd say the certification process is a joke. Or the law is a joke. It's clearly missing something important if there are all these issues. Why else would an installer being 5 CableCards with the hope that one of them will work? Why do people have to play CSR roulette just to find someone who knows what they are doing? (sarcasm alert!)
> 
> ...


So how come many of us have ZERO problems? the issue isn't CableCARDs or the certification process, the problem is the CableCo's that have fought CC all the way and still don't have a decent process in place to activate them. Even Verizon which has done very well, has issues, calling a CSR to activate a CableCARD is hit or miss as to if it happens properly, but if we call in and do the automated process entering the numbers ourselves it works fine. Clearly CableCARDS work fine since the new cable boxes all have them, the reason they work is they take the CSR process out of the picture since they're treated as closed systems with no need to pair and activate manually, they just press a button and it's done for them.

The issue here has never been Tivo or the Cable Labs certification process, it's ALWAYS been the MSO's


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

BobCamp1 said:


> The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.


DING!! DING!!!

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!:up:


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

I'll say it again....

There are thousands of threads on this site alone that complain about the same issues (lookups, reboots, etc) they are not all from the same MSO. As a matter of fact there's probably a poblem with TiVo and EVERY MSO IN THE COUNTRY!

Anybody want to guess what the constant denominator is?

If your product has issues with EVERY MSO it might be time stop looking for black helicopters and to start blaming your product.

Seriously, the MSO's are not out to get ya, they have plenty of people that use their products without a problem, they don't need to sabotage the last couple of die hards and geeks. 

Just saying....


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

In my experience with cable cards with Comcast and FiOS it was always a matter of getting a tech that knew the correct person to get in contact with. And then the correct info had to also be relayed and also had to be input correctly. If you didn't have the proper person, or the number was read wrong, or it was input wrong, there were always issues. 

With the FiOS automated process you take out all the middle people and get the info and input it yourself. Which in my use lead to no issues when I paired my cable cards last year. Which seemed like a breath of fresh air compared to the old way of pairing the cable cards.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

aaronwt said:


> In my experience with cable cards with Comcast and FiOS it was always a matter of getting a tech that knew the correct person to get in contact with. And then the correct info had to also be relayed and also had to be input correctly. If you didn't have the proper person, or the number was read wrong, or it was input wrong, there were always issues.
> 
> With the FiOS automated process you take out all the middle people and get the info and input it yourself. Which in my use lead to no issues when I paired my cable cards last year. Which seemed like a breath of fresh air compared to the old way of pairing the cable cards.


I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> .........
> The main reason people don't like Tivo anymore is they don't want to be in the middle of all the finger pointing. They just want something that works, and one phone number to call when it doesn't work. Just getting a Tivo to work at all has proven to be difficult for some people. Then there are all kinds of tricks people do, like power cycling the tuning adapter so the guide can get updated and suggestions can (kind of) work. When you throw in the spontaneous reboots, lack of a complete HD GUI, no VOD, sluggishness, no cheap whole-house solution, etc., it ends up being not much better that the cable company's DVR. Add the fact that when it breaks you have to BUY a new one ($$$) and go through the whole thing all over again, and people just don't want to bother with it.
> 
> It's sad, and a catch-22. Very few people care, so the issues never get fixed, so people don't buy Tivos, which mean even fewer people will care, etc.


I agree. However, using the cable co's DVR isn't always trouble free. They also have to be rebooted occasionally and have problems that require more than one truck roll to fix.

Given the complexities involved in devising a third-party generic DVR system (e.g., TiVo) to work with digital cable, and SDV, it could be viewed as somewhat fortunate that TiVo is still available at all. It required the government forcing a (non free market) solution for which it doesn't have the horsepower to enforce trouble-free operation. (And I'm glad it doesn't -- we can't afford even more government).


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...


The reality is, it is very very hard for the average person to have any idea where the problem is when he/she has one. Just too many pieces that can have issues and with multiple players providing those different pieces it becomes a support nightmare for everyone when something goes wrong and the problem isn't clearly identifiable.

I long ago stopped recommend TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people as I have no desire to provide free support. That is why in my opinion Stand Alone TiVos are and will remain a niche product and TiVo's best hope is partnering with MSOs.

What I find funny is we really don't hear much from people who rent TiVo DVRs from MSOs. After all they are the same TiVo DVRS that some people have so many issues when they buy them.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> DING!! DING!!!
> WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!:up:


no, we don't, we just have someone that agrees with your opinion so you get to jump up and down in "victory"


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## bantar (Apr 27, 2004)

atmuscarella said:


> The reality is, it is very very hard for the average person to have any idea where the problem is when he/she has one. Just too many pieces that can have issues and with multiple players providing those different pieces it becomes a support nightmare for everyone when something goes wrong and the problem isn't clearly identifiable.
> QUOTE]
> 
> On every TiVo survey, I always add a note mentioning the need for USER Accessible diagnostics and not the obscure kickstart commands. Doesn't seem to matter much, but I do it anyway. The main advantage of MSO units is that they are easily repaired by novices - return them (lose your shows, but you can always start over). Us TiVo fanatics don't really need this, but at the same time, why does it HAVE to be hard??? I've recommended many a folk to use MSO boxes for this very reason alone, knowing that I'm doing them no favors in the daily user experience department.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...


Those sorts of things are TiVo issues, at least most of the time. The one exception is the Tuning Adapter. TiVo has to stay in constant communication with the TA via USB. If it locks up or becomes sluggish then it can, by proxy, lock up the TiVo or make the TiVo sluggish. Most of the time the companies that manufacture these TAs know about the issues and create firmware patches to fix them, but a lot of the MSOs choose not to upgrade the firmware of the boxes they have in the field. Either because they want to hinder the experience or they simply don't care. And this particular problem is not specific to TiVo. There are a ton of HTPC users with Ceton cards that have the exact same issues when connected to a TA.

If you want to fall in line and pay the cable company $20/mo for their ****ty DVR that you can't upgrade, then go ahead. But the FCC has mandated that they support 3rd party solutions via CableCARDs and some of them, not all, are purposely trying to hinder that experience. TWC was even fined once for making their hindrance of CableCARDs so blatantly obvious. So acting like they're innocent and it's all the technology's fault is just ignorant.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

dianebrat said:


> no, we don't, we just have someone that agrees with your opinion so you get to jump up and down in "victory"


I don't look at it as a "victory" at all. I havent posted my "opinon", Ive posted my EXPEIRENCE with TiVo and 3 different MSO's. The FACT is that I happened to share the same problems the OP and THOUSANDS of others here.

My "OPINION" is the Premeire is a bug ridden POS that was rushed out the door half baked and 5 years later is not much better than Beta ready.

Look at me as someone that posts facts without getting emotional about their "investment" cause we both know I'm not the only one that had/has issues with the Premiere.

72,000 subs (and counting) in a years time didn't walk away from their TiVo's because they were working "flawlessly" 

And that's a FACT not OPINION.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> 72,000 subs (and counting) in a years time didn't walk away from their TiVo's because they were working "flawlessly"
> 
> And that's a FACT not OPINION.


There is a lot of assumption there. There are two other reasons TiVo is losing subscribers...

1) A LOT of those subscribers are DirecTV users. TiVo never disclosed specifics but based on their financials people were able to calculate that at one point something like 2/3 of their reported subscribers were DirecTV users. Those people have been jumping ship in droves since the DirecTiVo was discontinued and DirecTV started moving all their channels to MPEG-4 encoding. There is a new DirecTiVo out now, but it's still hard to get and provides no real benefit over DirecTVs own option.

2) Consolidation. With the release of the 4 tuner unit, multi-room streaming and the Mini, TiVo users don't need as many boxes as they once did. So a lot of TiVo users who use to have 3-4 units now only have 1-2. That's reflected in those numbers as well.

As for your comment about thousands of complaints on these forums... You have to remember that most people seek out forums for help or to complain about an issue. Very few seek out a forum to praise a product and say "everything is working great". So negative comments always outweigh positive on forums like this.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> Those sorts of things are TiVo issues, at least most of the time. The one exception is the Tuning Adapter. TiVo has to stay in constant communication with the TA via USB. If it locks up or becomes sluggish then it can, by proxy, lock up the TiVo or make the TiVo sluggish. Most of the time the companies that manufacture these TAs know about the issues and create firmware patches to fix them, but a lot of the MSOs choose not to upgrade the firmware of the boxes they have in the field. Either because they want to hinder the experience or they simply don't care. And this particular problem is not specific to TiVo. There are a ton of HTPC users with Ceton cards that have the exact same issues when connected to a TA.
> 
> If you want to fall in line and pay the cable company $20/mo for their ****ty DVR that you can't upgrade, then go ahead. But the FCC has mandated that they support 3rd party solutions via CableCARDs and some of them, not all, are purposely trying to hinder that experience. TWC was even fined once for making their hindrance of CableCARDs so blatantly obvious. So acting like they're innocent and it's all the technology's fault is just ignorant.


I didn't have a TA with Cablevision, FIOS and still had lookups, reboots, sluggishness, audio drop outs, missing channels, missed recordings etc.

I give you the fact that TA seem to add to the problems but I don't see it as the common denominator.

Besides, TiVo should be able to tweak their software to accomodate TA's if thats the problem. They've had 5 years to fix it. IMO like another poster mentioned, neither TiVo nor the MSO's care about the stand alone subs any more. They'll just keep pointing fingers at each other until the last of the die hards and geeks throw in the white towel with the other 72,000 subs that walked away this year.

As far as "falling in love with my ****ty DVR" all I'll say is I got 2 Genies that haven't had ONE hiccup, are lightning fast, cost me NOTHING but a promise to stay with DTV'S for another 2 years and oh yea, cost me $12 a month ($6 each).

Oh, and did I mention they were delivered and installed for free with a simple phone call? How about the fact that if one of them breaks or becomes obsolete in two years I get to hand them back with nothing but by monthly service fee lost?

Just curious, how much would TiVos 10 tuner' 4 TB, whole home setup run me after 2 years?


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> There is a lot of assumption there. There are two other reasons TiVo is losing subscribers...
> 
> 1) A LOT of those subscribers are DirecTV users. TiVo never disclosed specifics but based on their financials people were able to calculate that at one point something like 2/3 of their reported subscribers were DirecTV users. Those people have been jumping ship in droves since the DirecTiVo was discontinued and DirecTV started moving all their channels to MPEG-4 encoding. There is a new DirecTiVo out now, but it's still hard to get and provides no real benefit over DirecTVs own option.
> 
> ...


I really don't want to get into a peeing match with you. I agree with you 1000% that most people won't go out of their way to praise a product as fast as they'll go to trash it, but as far as the Premeire goes I personally know 4 people I recommended it to that never complained here, only to ME!

I understand you guys love your TiVos, but I just don't understand the bunker "us against them" mentality.

You guys are loyal to a fault! 

As far as subs go, -72,000 a year is -72,000 a year. Bottom line is their are less standalone subs than last year and I don't see that trend reversing.

Not with the products they have now and not when 90% of the people that DVRs only want a glorified VCR they can get delivered and installed for free with a simple phone call.

And that in a nutshell is why TiVos business plan will never work.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> My "OPINION" is the Premeire is a bug ridden POS that was rushed out the door half baked and 5 years later is not much better than Beta ready.


yeah, but you're not bitter at all..nor do you come biased. 

You've been called out on this in other threads, I see nothing different here, you vote for failure and are more than happy to jump on the bandwagon when someone else shares your opinion.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> I didn't have a TA with Cablevision, FIOS and still had lookups, reboots, sluggishness, audio drop outs, missing channels, missed recordings etc.


And I've never really had any of those problems other then the slugishness, which I'll give you is because the Premiere hardware is just too damn slow. The only time I ever missed recordings or had audio dropouts is because the stupid TA locked up or because the cable signal dropped out.



E. Norma Stitz said:


> Besides, TiVo should be able to tweak their software to accomodate TA's if thats the problem. They've had 5 years to fix it. IMO like another poster mentioned, neither TiVo nor the MSO's care about the stand alone subs any more. They'll just keep pointing fingers at each other until the last of the die hards and geeks throw in the white towel with the other 72,000 subs that walked away this year.


While they were in the process of suing Dish TiVo did basically nothing. So for 3 years we saw almost no progress made on the Premiere. Even I was thinking about jumping ship at that point. But in the last year and a half they have really started to innovating again and I'm hopeful about their future offerings.



E. Norma Stitz said:


> Just curious, how much would TiVos 10 tuner' 4 TB, whole home setup run me after 2 years?


TiVo will be releasing a 6 tuner unit this fall. We'll have to see what it costs, but I doubt that you'd be able to get two for a net of $12/mo. DirecTV seems to be giving you a hell of a deal there. But most cable companies charge $15-$20/mo for a 2 tuner DVR, so TiVo's cost is easier to swallow when compared to that.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

dianebrat said:


> yeah, but you're not bitter at all..nor do you come biased.
> 
> You've been called out on this in other threads, I see nothing different here, you vote for failure and are more than happy to jump on the bandwagon when someone else shares your opinion.


If you'd like to argue/discuss the points I bring here about TiVo, with ON-topic posts, I'm more than happy to oblige.

If you want to attack me personally because you don't like what I have to say, you can do us both a favor and put me on ignore.

Your choice....


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> I long ago stopped recommend TiVo to anyone other than OTA only people as I have no desire to provide free support. That is why in my opinion Stand Alone TiVos are and will remain a niche product and TiVo's best hope is partnering with MSOs.
> 
> What I find funny is we really don't hear much from people who rent TiVo DVRs from MSOs. After all they are the same TiVo DVRS that some people have so many issues when they buy them.


The "free support" to friends is a problem so I don't recommend TiVo anymore, Nobody I know (with TiVos) even knows this forum exists, and you have a good point about the MSO supplied TiVo not being a problem, at least to the users. 
Comcast has made cable card activation very easy for 90% of instillations with their special cable card phone number, but about 10% require a service call, as the tech can call another Comcast person that can clear your cable card so that the TiVo itself thinks you have removed the card from your TiVo, then re-program the card and all works.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> And I've never really had any of those problems other then the slugishness, which I'll give you is because the Premiere hardware is just too damn slow. The only time I ever missed recordings or had audio dropouts is because the stupid TA locked up or because the cable signal dropped out.
> 
> While they were in the process of suing Dish TiVo did basically nothing. So for 3 years we saw almost no progress made on the Premiere. Even I was thinking about jumping ship at that point. But in the last year and a half they have really started to innovating again and I'm hopeful about their future offerings.
> 
> TiVo will be releasing a 6 tuner unit this fall. We'll have to see what it costs, but I doubt that you'd be able to get two for a net of $12/mo. DirecTV seems to be giving you a hell of a deal there. But most cable companies charge $15-$20/mo for a 2 tuner DVR, so TiVo's cost is easier to swallow when compared to that.


I was tempted to bring up the fact that TiVo seems to spend more money on lawsuits than improving their products, but that subject is better suited to a financial site although Id like your opinion....

If Dish, Verizon, AT&T and everyone else TiVo has successfully sued pay TiVo for their "technology"' why would they sabotage you?

As far as my deal with DTV, yes, I got a sweet deal. I admit that not everyone will get that deal, but my point is you can call and TRY! They have other revenue streams to draw from, they don't need rely on their DVR fee and have plenty of wiggle room.

TiVo? Not so much.

Bottom line is MSO's are going all out for subs and if you don't ask you won't get. They can see the writing on the wall. Eventually the DVR will go the way of the VCR with cloud based recording, video on demand, streaming, Hulu, Roku, Netflix, etc....

So, if Nothing ventured, nothing gained...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

There are other things to consider here as well... The money is relatively insignificant to me. $12/mo vs $50/mo, wont make a dent in my finances one way or the other. I spend more then that on a trip to the movies, and I do that 3-5 times a month. 

I like TiVo! I'm familiar with it, I like the extra features it offers, and I have very few issues with it. To me that's worth paying for. If I was financially strapped or had consistent problems with it then I might consider changing. But as it is now I enjoy being a TiVo customer and I'm willing to pay for it.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> There are other things to consider here as well... The money is relatively insignificant to me. $12/mo vs $50/mo, wont make a dent in my finances one way or the other. I spend more then that on a trip to the movies, and I do that 3-5 times a month.
> 
> I like TiVo! I'm familiar with it, I like the extra features it offers, and I have very few issues with it. To me that's worth paying for. If I was financially strapped or had consistent problems with it then I might consider changing. But as it is now I enjoy being a TiVo customer and I'm willing to pay for it.


Rock on Bro! Ive got no right to tell you how to spend your money.

My wife complains that I spend too much money on golf equipment. To each his own, right! Whatever makes you happy.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Dan203 said:


> To further help support this system the FCC also requires that all cable company leased equipment uses CableCARDs too.


Cox is now claiming that the ruling ONLY applies to equipment manufactured after the ruling.

So, guess what they're doing in my area: They're taking their old boxes, "refurbishing" them, and using those instead. If you have a box with a cablecard in it, and they come out on a service call, they take it back, and give you one with the old integrated way of doing things.

They then "refurbish" the cablecards that were in their cablecarded boxes, and give those cards to customers that don't use their equipment.

If it your TiVo doesn't work with the cablecard provided, they blame anything BUT the cablecard, and say "We don't support TiVo or other 3rd party equipment".

They used to give Cisco/SA PKM800 cards ONLY to their TiVo & 3rd-party cablecard customers. The only place you'd EVER see a PKM802 cablecard was if you peeked inside their own equipment.

Now, if you request six cablecards, you'll get handed a mix of both PKM800 and PKM802 cards.

If you specifically ask for a cablecarded box that is one of theirs, they'll say "those are very hard to come by, sorry".


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> If you want to attack me personally because you don't like what I have to say, you can do us both a favor and put me on ignore


best thing I've seen you post in a while, thanks


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

WO312 said:


> Guys, guys, guys. Sure, his problem is probably with TWC. What the F is he supposed to do??? Sue them?? All he wants is a reliable device. i don't blame him.


I had a lot of the same issues with Cablevision and their cable cards and TA. The TA would reboot or go offline several times a week. I tried to self install it failed. As did the next tech. It took at least one more visit and ANOTHER tech with a clue and 30 mins or so of hold time.

The cable companies have a inferior system and don't want to support Tivo, CC or TA. They don't remotely care.

I figured out what channels I would lose (at the time). It was premium movie channels and some foreign lang stuff. So I disconnected the TA. Canceled my movie package (saving myself some money) and returned the TA to their local office. 10 months later FIOS lit up my apartment complex. I switched ASAP and canceled my Cablevision account. I dumped all their stuff off at their local office the same day I got FIOS installed.

Later I decided to reactivate my Tivo. Went to the local FIOS store got a CC. Looked new instead of the beatup crap Cablevision was using. Installed it and call a toll free number to activate. Only issue I had was HBO didn't work (and I think Showtime). I had to call in and have them pair the CC to the Tivo. I wish they would have told me that or put that down on the paper I got with the CC.

But the whole process was maybe 1.5 hours including drive time to and from the store vs dozens of hours wasted with Cablevision.

I am probably moving soon (or may stay one more year). I hope my next place can get FIOS.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> In many other regions, with different MSOs, CableCARDs and tuning adapters work exactly as they are suppose to with few, if any, problems.


I have had 2 or 3 truck rolls with Cablevision for a self install CC.

I have had 0 truck rolls with Fios for a self install CC.

There really should be no reason for a truck roll if the system works properly. Big IF with some of the cable companies.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> I had no problems pairing my CC with neither Cablevision or FIOS and that's exactly why I don't understand how it's the MSO's fault your 3rd party equipment locks up and reboots, misses recordings, sluggish performance...


The crappy TA that Cablevision provides isn't my equipment. This is the POS that reboots. Why didn't myself install work? Why couldn't the clueless Cablevision tech get the card I picked up or the one he brought to work? Were the cards bad? Maybe they were beatup used POS.

Why did the CC I picked up at the Verizon FIOS store just work (save for HBO which I had to call in and have them pair my Tivo to the card)?

Cablevision has finally upgraded to digital and I don't think needs SDV anymore or will be switch off it finally. With Fios you never had to deal with a TA. Even before that I had issues with SDV. More then a few times with the wonderful SA8300HD I would put on a SDV channel only to be told a channel I pay for is not available at this time.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I agree. However, using the cable co's DVR isn't always trouble free. They also have to be rebooted occasionally and have problems that require more than one truck roll to fix.


I went through 4 or 5 SA8300HD cableboxes in 4 years. They don't really seem to do a good job at refurbishing or testing these things.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The Premiere has a LOT of work that needs to be done on it's software, however, it's the best thing out there right now. I've heard good things about the Genie, but I have no interest in paying another $30-$40/mo or more when you include the additional cost of DirecTV, and the unbundling fee Comcast charges on the cable internet, plus the loss of bundle discount on double play.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

I see someone left the toolbox open again.

Has a class action lawsuit been suggested yet? 

Any time I've had missed recordings it's never been Tivo's "fault", last minute scheduling changes. Once Comcrap (previously TWC in Houston) toasted my entire line-up for over a week because they jumped the gun on a line-up change, by the time the corrected it, it was time for the change to kick in.

It took me no less then 5 appointments from techs to get a cable card working. I heard every lie from "I wasn't told to bring a card" to "I came by and no body was home" (good trick for pretty much housebound me.)

I finally got a manager who really wanted it to work. He stayed there for 2.5 hours until we were sure all the channels and permissions were correct.

EVERY time I've gotten the unauthorized channel screen. CC/Comcast issue, not Tivo.

I honestly thinkthat often times, average users blame Tivo because they don't know better.

I also know that just like there are "thousands" of complaints here on a Tivo forum, there are complaints on the provider's forums about their products too.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Bigg said:


> The Premiere has a LOT of work that needs to be done on it's software, however, it's the best thing out there right now.


I also agree with this. There are some issues with the Premiere for sure. Some of which should have been fixed years ago.

I like it better then the SA8300HD Cablevision uses (they now have a Samsung box I have not used I think).

I do like the Verizon MDVR enough though were if it weren't for the fees I could live with that box if my Tivo were to die. But the Tivo I think is better overall.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

E. Norma Stitz said:


> Not with the products they have now and not when 90% of the people that DVRs only want a glorified VCR they can get delivered and installed for free with a simple phone call.
> 
> And that in a nutshell is why TiVos business plan will never work.


Except that they are doing deals with a lot of small cable operators. That's where they are getting a lot of subs from now.



Dan203 said:


> DirecTV seems to be giving you a hell of a deal there.


There's no deal on DirecTV. They charge monthly fees up the wazoo, have long contracts where cable doesn't, and their service is just more expensive in the first place. They offer a premium service compared to cable, and they charge accordingly.



jcondon said:


> I have had 2 or 3 truck rolls with Cablevision for a self install CC.
> 
> I have had 0 truck rolls with Fios for a self install CC.
> 
> There really should be no reason for a truck roll if the system works properly. Big IF with some of the cable companies.


Comcast seems to support CC very well.



jcondon said:


> I also agree with this. There are some issues with the Premiere for sure. Some of which should have been fixed years ago.
> 
> I like it better then the SA8300HD Cablevision uses (they now have a Samsung box I have not used I think).
> 
> I do like the Verizon MDVR enough though were if it weren't for the fees I could live with that box if my Tivo were to die. But the Tivo I think is better overall.


The problem I have is that it's like a half-finished product. There's slow menus, SD menus all over the place, it hasn't kept pace with handling duplicate SD/HD channels, and the list goes on. They have the best product out there, but it still seems like a beta, after what 14 years?

TiVo has kept cable palatable for me, and saved me a lot of money in the process. DirecTV is big bucks compared to Comcast, so even with some money sunk into the TiVo hardware, I'm saving a lot.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

Bigg said:


> The problem I have is that it's like a half-finished product. There's slow menus, SD menus all over the place, it hasn't kept pace with handling duplicate SD/HD channels, and the list goes on. They have the best product out there, but it still seems like a beta, after what 14 years?


I agree everything you said above.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> it hasn't kept pace with handling duplicate SD/HD channels


I have no idea what you're talking about here. Remove the dupe SD channels from the guide and you'll have no issues with wish lists because there are no dupes.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

If I select a channel that is the channel I want to be viewing. I don't need a box overriding the decision I made.

Sent from my HTC ReZound using Forum Runner


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## Sevenfeet (Jun 24, 2000)

The irony to all this cablecard business is that modern cableboxes from the Cablecos all have them. They aren't supposed to be user serviceable, but they are in there. So you'd think that the cablecos would be better about programming them these days, but every time I've needed to fool with the cablecards for a programming change, I've needed a truck pull since Comcast always gets it wrong.

I'm in a position I was hoping to head off. I have two Series 3 HD Tivos circa 2007. Only recently have I been having hard drive problems, specifically with the one in my home theater. The external hard drive failed a month ago and I replaced it with another 1 TB WD drive that I happened to have around. But last night, the Tivo froze and won't get past the "Powering Up" screen which means the internal drive has probably had it.

I've been at Tivo since July 1999...nearly 14 years now. I began with the Series 1, did Series 1 DirecTV for a while and finally jumped on the Series 3 in 2007. I skipped over the Series 2 and was looking to do the same with Series 4 but I'm debating about whether to just bite the bullet and get a XL4 or repair the current one and wait for the next series (assuming Tivo makes it that far). I also know that Comcast will be launching their "cloud based" DVR system in July in my market (Nashville) which I've been told will be great, but we've heard those promises before.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Sevenfeet said:


> I'm in a position I was hoping to head off. I have two Series 3 HD Tivos circa 2007. Only recently have I been having hard drive problems, specifically with the one in my home theater. The external hard drive failed a month ago and I replaced it with another 1 TB WD drive that I happened to have around. But last night, the Tivo froze and won't get past the "Powering Up" screen which means the internal drive has probably had it.


Check the power supply capacitors. Both of my S3 OLED from Jan/Feb 2007 had bad capacitors in the last year. I replaced the capacitors in the one that totally died and just waiting for downtime to replace the bad ones in the other TiVo

Scott


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

nooneuknow said:


> Cox is now claiming that the ruling ONLY applies to equipment manufactured after the ruling.
> 
> So, guess what they're doing in my area: They're taking their old boxes, "refurbishing" them, and using those instead. If you have a box with a cablecard in it, and they come out on a service call, they take it back, and give you one with the old integrated way of doing things.
> 
> ...


This does not sound right, Cox is slowly transitioning to all new STB/DVRs that will support the Trio IPG and MPEG-4 (H.264) video. Cox is headed toward an all Cisco platform for thier STBs, DVRs and Cisco G8 Gateway, Cox is all Tru2Way compatible, so they will be using all Cisco equipment in the home and Motorola markets will be using Motorola CableCARD in the Cisco equipment.

At least that is the current plan, Cox has a habit of starting and abandoning plans though.

Cisco has already announced End-of-Life and End-of-Sale Notices for the PKM800 and PKM802 CableCARDS
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps8672/prod_eol_notices_list.html


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

CoxInPHX said:


> This does not sound right, Cox is slowly transitioning to all new STB/DVRs that will support the Trio IPG and MPEG-4 (H.264) video. Cox is headed toward an all Cisco platform for thier STBs, DVRs and Cisco G8 Gateway, Cox is all Tru2Way compatible, so they will be using all Cisco equipment in the home and Motorola markets will be using Motorola CableCARD in the Cisco equipment.
> 
> At least that is the current plan, Cox has a habit of starting and abandoning plans though.
> 
> ...


It makes sense, if you factor in all the extra revenue they can generate by offering a better solution, that includes a contract, and THEIR newest equipment.

They advertise on TV that the competitors all require contracts for their best services, and they don't. Then, they send out mailings that promote their better solutions, IF you sign up with a contract. THEN, you get THEIR newest equipment, and they have a chance to rid another household from using TiVo, since it's cost-prohibitive for the customer to rent cablecards (plus all the "Advanced TV" fees) for all the TiVos, and then stack another box (theirs) on top of each TiVo, along with all the extra costs and the contract, which has penalties for breaking it. The "Advanced TV Plus" package is only available for THEIR equipment, as well.

While the renegade "Cos Las Vegas" franchise may be back in the main fold, this market doesn't offer Tuning Adapters, and if you want the services that require SDV, it's either their equipment with a contract, or live without it.

Apparently, they still are doing things their own way, and feel they've found enough loopholes in the regs to get away with it. I doubt that they have many TiVo and other 3rd-party equipment users left (too may bailed before the FCC took action, which they still chose to mostly ignore, and just paid the meager fines), and are betting on eliminating them to the point of there being too few left to complain that any regulatory agency will take notice or action.

They have kick-ass internet service, and speed, above and beyond many other Cox markets, which their is no true "competing" provider for. It's that very reason that it's hard to just leave Cox. There's nobody here that can provide anything better than DSL, which is through the phone company, which nobody here is happy with either (CenturyLink).


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

CoxInPHX said:


> Cisco has already announced End-of-Life and End-of-Sale Notices for the PKM800 and PKM802 CableCARDS
> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps8672/prod_eol_notices_list.html


I suppose I should following the link and burn-out my retinas looking for the answer to this question, but maybe you can save me the eye-strain...

What's next then, once the PKM800/802 cards are discontinued? Are we stuck with eternally "refurbished" discontinued cards, or is there something better, or newer, that will fit in a cablecard slot, in the future?

I've heard of people *allegedly* buying their own cablecards, but I'm very certain Cox, in my market, would NEVER authorize them.

Can I demand something other than a PKM800/802 from Cox on any legal grounds, or ruling? I don't like the ominously negative feeling I get for the future of current TiVo owners, in markets like mine. I also feel that 98% of my TiVo ownership woes are really due to Cox, not TiVo, and that at least 75% of that could be due to something about the Cisco/SA cablecards.

I also agree with the part I didn't quote, regarding Cox announcing things, only to un-announce them, or come to agreements, only to never adhere to them. The one about Cox and TiVo partnering to provide on-demand services, which TiVo still has in their press-release archive, is a sore spot. I was on the short-list to test that here (by Cox), then was told TiVo backed-out, then was told by TiVo that Cox backed-out.

There has never been any *official* press-release stating what happened with that, which I am aware of...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> I suppose I should following the link and burn-out my retinas looking for the answer to this question, but maybe you can save me the eye-strain...
> 
> What's next then, once the PKM800/802 cards are discontinued? Are we stuck with eternally "refurbished" discontinued cards, or is there something better, or newer, that will fit in a cablecard slot, in the future?


It appears Cisco's latest/current cable card is the PKM 908 which can support 8 tuners/streams: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps8672/products_data_sheets_list.html

My guess is there is nothing wrong with the existing ones until they fail so I would bet they will be around for a long time.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about here. Remove the dupe SD channels from the guide and you'll have no issues with wish lists because there are no dupes.


It's the one and only thing MCE does better. It's intelligent about SD/HD and duplicate channels (I get PBS from Hartford and Boston that often have the same programming but sometimes its different).


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## LowThudd (May 29, 2013)

As a TWC customer for many years, all of the HD DVRs I have had from them were either very buggy, or failed in less than a year or two. Which is annoying when you have several favorite movies on the drive and they have no way to transfer them. I did have trouble getting my new TiVo Premiere up and running. The first tech listed it as a Cisco card, when it was in fact a Motorola. Finally I got a direct number for TWC that specifically deals with ONLY CableCard issues. She got me fixed up and working in under a half hour. Very proficient. 866 532 2598 is the number. Although the tivo has it's own set of issues, they are so far far less frustrating than the issues I get with a TWC HD DVR.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

That TWC national cable card support number has been around for a long time. Just out of curiosity I searched the forum on "2598" and came up with hundreds of hits -- the oldest one was *August 2008 !* Unfortunately there is no easy way for someone that needs it to know about it, so people keep "discovering" it over and over. Of course TWC support reps should know about that number but in my experience they generally don't, or at least they don't bother to use it or mention it to TiVo customers.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It's the one and only thing MCE does better. It's intelligent about SD/HD and duplicate channels (I get PBS from Hartford and Boston that often have the same programming but sometimes its different).


It's really not a big deal to setup separate SPs for both PBS stations. I have the same thing here in the ATL and have dupe SPs for a variety of shows on both stations, but they're both HD. I have all the SD dupe stations removed from the guide so I could actually just make ARWLs instead of separate SPs if I wanted.

You can do the same, so even though WMC has the 'HD preferred' option for its series there is no point to it in my setup because there are no SD dupes. Everything I record is in HD. And if you really wanted some offbeat shows on an SD PBS sub-station (we have a couple here), just create SPs for those separately.

I know what you're saying but it's such a minor difference and is easily worked around.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's really not a big deal to setup separate SPs for both PBS stations. I have the same thing here in the ATL and have dupe SPs for a variety of shows on both stations, but they're both HD. I have all the SD dupe stations removed from the guide so I could actually just make ARWLs instead of separate SPs if I wanted.
> 
> You can do the same, so even though WMC has the 'HD preferred' option for its series there is no point to it in my setup because there are no SD dupes. Everything I record is in HD. And if you really wanted some offbeat shows on an SD PBS sub-station (we have a couple here), just create SPs for those separately.
> 
> I know what you're saying but it's such a minor difference and is easily worked around.


Yes, you can work around it. However, TiVo is a premium product, and you shouldn't have to work around things.


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## Sevenfeet (Jun 24, 2000)

HerronScott said:


> Check the power supply capacitors. Both of my S3 OLED from Jan/Feb 2007 had bad capacitors in the last year. I replaced the capacitors in the one that totally died and just waiting for downtime to replace the bad ones in the other TiVo
> 
> Scott


That's a good point...I'd read something about capacitors failing. I'll have to check that when I come back from my business trip this week. Thanks.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Yes, you can work around it. However, TiVo is a premium product, and *you shouldn't have to work around things*.


LOL dream on pal, no DVR is perfect no matter how 'premium' you think it is.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> LOL dream on pal, no DVR is perfect no matter how 'premium' you think it is.


It's what TiVo and all the others should be striving for. We see it in smartphones, yet we don't see it on DVRs.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bigg said:


> It's what TiVo and all the others should be striving for. We see it in smartphones, yet we don't see it on DVRs.


TiVos are not defective in design, you're just not holding them properly.

Just kidding, couldn't help myself.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It's what TiVo and all the others should be striving for. We see it in smartphones, yet we don't see it on DVRs.


No Smartphone is anywhere close to perfect either.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> TiVos are not defective in design, you're just not holding them properly.
> 
> Just kidding, couldn't help myself.


Except that was an issue you could only reproduce in the lab when you took the case off. In the real world, the case would be on, so the issue would be impossible to re-create.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> The problem I have is that it's like a half-finished product. There's slow menus, SD menus all over the place, it hasn't kept pace with handling duplicate SD/HD channels, and the list goes on. They have the best product out there, but it still seems like a beta, after what 14 years?


Again with the menus. So now you're bashing the Tivos you raved about in the Ceton InfiniTV thread? Apparently there is no DVR on the market that will satisfy you. You just can't make up your mind what to hate. 



Bigg said:


> Yes, you can work around it. However, TiVo is a premium product, and you shouldn't have to work around things.


Then you should go back and get your HTPC working because there are absolutely no workarounds required (at least for those of us that know how to install Windows and tuners).


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Bigg said:


> Except that was an issue you could only reproduce in the lab when you took the case off. In the real world, the case would be on, so the issue would be impossible to re-create.


As I recall it, the original design released to the public DIDN'T HAVE A PROTECTIVE CASE, or any form of edge/side guard/bumper, so the antenna was exposed. Then, companies started selling them, while the iPeople whined that they should be provided to them for free. I stopped reading any further developments past that point. I only own dumb-phones, anyway.

It's hilarious that you felt compelled to jump in. You must be an iPerson.

Now, cuss, swear, or correct me all you like, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. I really only care about TiVos & technology that I actually own or use.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

My main complaint with Tivo is that it needs to use two tuners for back to back programs on the same channel when the first program is set to record longer and overlaps the second program.


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## weaver (Feb 27, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> My main complaint with Tivo is that it needs to use two tuners for back to back programs on the same channel when the first program is set to record longer and overlaps the second program.


That's the first thing I noticed when I came back to TiVo from the DirecTV DVRs. The DirecTV DVRs don't have that problem.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

weaver said:


> That's the first thing I noticed when I came back to TiVo from the DirecTV DVRs. The DirecTV DVRs don't have that problem.


Neither do my tuners with Windows Media Center.  Every recording gets its own tuner. I've set up the tuner priorities for each channel I record so that it polls the ones I specify first and then checks them in order of availability. If the 1st tuner is in use then it skips to the next one in the list until it finds one that's available.

I can't recall if I was able to work around this on my Tivos by padding both recordings. IIRC, I had two S3 Tivos and I would generally schedule back-to-back recordings on the same channel on separate Tivos to avoid the overlap problem. I'm surprised that Tivo hasn't fixed such an obvious problem.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> I guess you never, for a moment considered it was TWC that was the source of your problems and suggested that TWC make their system work correctly and credit you for services you did not receive?
> 
> Seems to me TWC is the one you should be venting at, not giving more money to.


There are known issues with the Premier 4 and the tuners that Tivo put in them giving "black" channels. There's two threads ongoing in the Premiere forums currently.

I myself, have this happening ONLY on my Premiere XL4s for months, and have to call Tivo every 2 months to get a credit (although that doesn't outweigh the amount I have to spend on Amazon to download because Tivo STILL doesn't have an Amazon Prime app support yet).

So it's quite possible this is a Tivo issue.

Also possible it's an SDV issue with the stupid tuning adapter and Tivo's partially to blame for that with their last comments to the FCC about how all was fine and ******-dory and no issues with the Tuning Adapters at all, yet you see here in the Tivo forums that there are constant issues with them.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Again with the menus. So now you're bashing the Tivos you raved about in the Ceton InfiniTV thread? Apparently there is no DVR on the market that will satisfy you. You just can't make up your mind what to hate.
> 
> Then you should go back and get your HTPC working because there are absolutely no workarounds required (at least for those of us that know how to install Windows and tuners).


There is no perfect system out there. TiVo has a lot of issues, but it's the best on the market, and the only one that's really workable.



nooneuknow said:


> As I recall it, the original design released to the public DIDN'T HAVE A PROTECTIVE CASE, or any form of edge/side guard/bumper, so the antenna was exposed. Then, companies started selling them, while the iPeople whined that they should be provided to them for free. I stopped reading any further developments past that point. I only own dumb-phones, anyway.


The only way you could reproduce it was to take it's case off and do it in a test type of environment. Anyone who is actually using an iPhone without a case in the real world is a blathering idiot, and the spiderweb-cracked screen will probably be a lot worse than the reception problems.

EDIT: Combine posts.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> There is no perfect system out there. TiVo has a lot of issues, but it's the best on the market, and the only one that's really workable.


Perfection is perception. What's perfect for some may be a POS for others. It all boils down to personal preference and what you expect out of your DVR. If I still felt Tivo was the best on the market I'd still be using it. It's a great DVR, and possibly the best commercial DVR available. There are other options available for the DIY sector that do much more than a Tivo ever could.

How is Tivo the only "workable" system? It may be the only workable solution for you since it's clear you can't get a HTPC to work properly, but it's certainly not the only solution for many of us. HTPCs are far more flexible than any model Tivo out there, past or present. You've just got to know what to do with them.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Bigg said:


> The only way you could reproduce it was to take it's case off and do it in a test type of environment. Anyone who is actually using an iPhone without a case in the real world is a blathering idiot, and the spiderweb-cracked screen will probably be a lot worse than the reception problems.
> 
> EDIT: Combine posts.


Wow! The original iPhone4 did NOT come with any case whatsoever! It was only AFTER everybody complained that Apple started to (reluctantly) ship the phones with a free case. That only lasted three months -- then you had to REQUEST the free case. Then there were class-action lawsuits, now Apple is giving everybody $15 or a free case if they didn't originally request a case.

It's tough to argue with people who can't remember what happened three years ago.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> Wow! The original iPhone4 did NOT come with any case whatsoever! It was only AFTER everybody complained that Apple started to (reluctantly) ship the phones with a free case. That only lasted three months -- then you had to REQUEST the free case. Then there were class-action lawsuits, now Apple is giving everybody $15 or a free case if they didn't originally request a case.
> 
> It's tough to argue with people who can't remember what happened three years ago.


It's also funny because if it ONLY happened in a "test environment" then how did it even become a thing in the first place? Oh, I know, it was because it happened to people and they complained about it.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Perfection is perception. What's perfect for some may be a POS for others. It all boils down to personal preference and what you expect out of your DVR. If I still felt Tivo was the best on the market I'd still be using it. It's a great DVR, and possibly the best commercial DVR available. There are other options available for the DIY sector that do much more than a Tivo ever could.
> 
> How is Tivo the only "workable" system? It may be the only workable solution for you since it's clear you can't get a HTPC to work properly, but it's certainly not the only solution for many of us. HTPCs are far more flexible than any model Tivo out there, past or present. You've just got to know what to do with them.


Switching between HD and SD menus, for example, is not a perfect product. Lack of DTA, lack of HD/SD channel management, etc, is not a perfect product.

It's the only system out there for cable that works, work reliably, and is easy to use. DirecTV has their system, which, from what I hear, is also very good.



BobCamp1 said:


> Wow! The original iPhone4 did NOT come with any case whatsoever! It was only AFTER everybody complained that Apple started to (reluctantly) ship the phones with a free case. That only lasted three months -- then you had to REQUEST the free case. Then there were class-action lawsuits, now Apple is giving everybody $15 or a free case if they didn't originally request a case.
> 
> It's tough to argue with people who can't remember what happened three years ago.


Anyone who didn't have a case on their iPhone 4 was an idiot, and no, Apple doesn't provide the requisite case for an iPhone. The spiderweb cracking that you will get on the phone if you don't have it in a case is a whole lot worse than the antenna issue.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It's the only system out there for cable that works, work reliably, and is easy to use.


You sure do like your absolutes, just as much as you like being wrong I guess.


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> You sure do like your absolutes, just as much as you like being wrong I guess.


Yeah, with his every post, he's completely discredited his comparison to perfection existing in smartphones, as he feels it should also exist in DVRs.

Or, maybe I'm just supposed to buy a protective case for my TiVo, and all my problems will be solved.  My post about that "I must be holding my TiVo wrong" that started this whole mess was a joke, for crying out loud. It was good old satire, and wasn't even aimed at anybody, directly.

I do find it pathetic, that by the time the Premiere hit the market, there were smartphones with much more processing power, than the Premiere itself.

Can't we all just get along? Never mind, stupid question, considering the state of these forums, and people with over 10,000 posts, who never, once, have posted anything productive, or helpful. There's a few left that don't fit that mold, but they're a dying breed on here...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It's the only system out there for cable that works, work reliably, and is easy to use.


Umm, no it's not, at least not for most of us. That's just your opinion and couldn't be further from actual fact.

Case in point: my brother-in-law is fairly tech savvy, yet he chose to go with a Verizon DVR vs. a Tivo or a HTPC and he's perfectly content with it. AFAIK, he's never had any issues with it or missed any recordings. It certainly wouldn't be my choice of DVR, but it's convenient for him and one less thing he has to worry about. If it dies he only has to swap it out for another one.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> Umm, no it's not, at least not for most of us. That's just your opinion and couldn't be further from actual fact.
> 
> Case in point: my brother-in-law is fairly tech savvy, yet he chose to go with a Verizon DVR vs. a Tivo or a HTPC and he's perfectly content with it. AFAIK, he's never had any issues with it or missed any recordings. It certainly wouldn't be my choice of DVR, but it's convenient for him and one less thing he has to worry about. If it dies he only has to swap it out for another one.


I'm very tech-savvy, and I have a Verizon DVR myself. Works great, all the menus are in HD, no sluggishness, cheap multiroom feature, can add any eSATA drive you want. If it dies, I transfer my DVR settings to the cloud, get a new one for free, then transfer them back. The only thing I miss from Tivo is the Wishlist/keyword recording feature.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Umm, no it's not, at least not for most of us. That's just your opinion and couldn't be further from actual fact.
> 
> Case in point: my brother-in-law is fairly tech savvy, yet he chose to go with a Verizon DVR vs. a Tivo or a HTPC and he's perfectly content with it. AFAIK, he's never had any issues with it or missed any recordings. It certainly wouldn't be my choice of DVR, but it's convenient for him and one less thing he has to worry about. If it dies he only has to swap it out for another one.


None of the cable-provided DVRs are too hot. Serviceable, maybe, but not great.



BobCamp1 said:


> I'm very tech-savvy, and I have a Verizon DVR myself. Works great, all the menus are in HD, no sluggishness, cheap multiroom feature, can add any eSATA drive you want. If it dies, I transfer my DVR settings to the cloud, get a new one for free, then transfer them back. The only thing I miss from Tivo is the Wishlist/keyword recording feature.


Cheap? Free? I don't think so. They charge an arm and a leg, and over 48 months, it's likely more expensive than TiVo.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> None of the cable-provided DVRs are too hot. Serviceable, maybe, but not great.


I'm not trying to promote cableco DVRs. I'm just pointing out that they're more than adequate for some people. I'm still trying to figure out why you own one since they all seem to annoy you in some way or another. 



> Cheap? Free? I don't think so. They charge an arm and a leg, and over 48 months, it's likely more expensive than TiVo.


I think your math is more than just a bit off. Verizon charges $16.99 per month for their HD DVR. A Tivo Premiere costs $14.99 per month plus the initial cost of the DVR ($99, IIRC) with a one-year commitment. At $2 difference in cost it will take you 50 months just to break even, and that's assuming the Tivo doesn't die somewhere along the way, which will probably set you back another $150 for a refurbished replacement.

With no Tivo commitment, you pay full retail price for the DVR plus $19.99 per month. Lifetime service now costs $499. Tivo just keeps jacking up the prices for their service, which is the main reason I switched to HTPCs. The fact that mine are as reliable as a Tivo just makes it all that much sweeter. 

I think I paid $99 for my lifetime service and probably would buy it at $199, but $499 is just insane. I'm amazed they can still stay in business at these prices. Tivo's not only charging an arm and a leg, but they want you to throw in your first-born along with it. 

Here's the excerpt from the Tivo website for your edification:



> For TiVo Premiere DVRs:
> 
> (a) When purchasing a TiVo Premiere DVR and subscription at the same time directly from TiVo, you may select one of the following options:
> 
> ...


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I'll give you adequate, not good by any stretch of the imagination. I have to have something. TiVo is the best/least bad option out there. It fundamentally is a good device, it just has a lot of unfinished bits and pieces to it that need to be dealt with.

Comcast charges $17/mo for their DVR. TiVo costs $650, and has no monthly fees. 38 months, and the amortized monthly cost goes below $17. The math works out for the TP4 with Minis as well compared to Comcast's $17/mo DVR, $3/mo whole home fee, and $10/mo for each additional box.

The "service" charge is annoying, but when you step back and realize that TiVo is just shifting the cost around to places it doesn't really belong, it's not so bad. They really should just advertise the box as being $650, but the problem is too many stupid Americans would freak out, so they have to hide the costs, and make monthly subscriptions that anyone with basic math skills can figure out are a total rip-off in order to pad their investor reports for Wall Street's absurd accounting system.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I'll give you adequate, not good by any stretch of the imagination. I have to have something. TiVo is the best/least bad option out there. It fundamentally is a good device, it just has a lot of unfinished bits and pieces to it that need to be dealt with.
> 
> Comcast charges $17/mo for their DVR. TiVo costs $650, and has no monthly fees. 38 months, and the amortized monthly cost goes below $17. The math works out for the TP4 with Minis as well compared to Comcast's $17/mo DVR, $3/mo whole home fee, and $10/mo for each additional box.
> 
> The "service" charge is annoying, but when you step back and realize that TiVo is just shifting the cost around to places it doesn't really belong, it's not so bad. They really should just advertise the box as being $650, but the problem is too many stupid Americans would freak out, so they have to hide the costs, and make monthly subscriptions that anyone with basic math skills can figure out are a total rip-off in order to pad their investor reports for Wall Street's absurd accounting system.


I not going to take these other things into account but one must if your going to make a cost comparison

1) The resale value of a Lifetime TiVo
2) The ability to upgrade the hard drive
3) the free in-home service included with the cable co. DVR cost

There is no single answer to the DVR, that why TiVo is the only independent DVR maker in the market (I am not counting any PC DVR as a product).


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## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

lessd said:


> I not going to take these other things into account but one must if your going to make a cost comparison
> 
> 1) The resale value of a Lifetime TiVo
> 2) The ability to upgrade the hard drive
> ...


You may want to add:
4) The ability to possibly recover your recordings, or the whole shebang, under certain circumstances, as well as new backup tools being available(which you can't do with cableco DVRs).
5) Losing all of 1,2,&4 but getting a free replacement device, when using a cableco DVR, at no cost, if any part of it fails.

...and possibly edit #3, because it's a bit murky (But, I think you mean equipment replacement/service calls, like I spelled out in your #5).

I'm agreeing with you, just adding my 2 cents...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

nooneuknow said:


> You may want to add:
> 4) The ability to possibly recover your recordings, or the whole shebang, under certain circumstances, as well as new backup tools being available(which you can't do with cableco DVRs).
> 5) Losing all of 1,2,&4 but getting a free replacement device, when using a cableco DVR, at no cost, if any part of it fails.
> 
> ...


A good 2 cents at that, I could spend a lot more space putting together a lot more stuff, but I was just pointing out that any TiVo to cable co DVR comparisons is not simple or easy to do as different users/families all have different amount of expertise and needs.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lessd said:


> A good 2 cents at that, I could spend a lot more space putting together a lot more stuff, but I was just pointing out that any TiVo to cable co DVR comparisons is not simple or easy to do as different users/families all have different amount of expertise and needs.


Precisely. Not everyone needs or wants the extra features, expense, or maintenance required with owning your own DVR. Cableco DVRs fill a consumer niche the same way that Tivos and HTPCs do. Just about everyone here would not fall into that same category, but you have to realize it exists.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment, and partly because of the profit involved. In a perfect world, the cable company wouldn't be allowed to sell user equipment, so the market would be fully decoupled, and thus easy to compete in. Same for the cell phone manufacturers. But unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> ... partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment...


I'm laughing too hard at the moment to make any comments.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment,.


You think like some wall street person is an idiot because he makes over a Mill /year and does not want to use his time to troubleshoot and maintain his/her own equipment, *give me a break*


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## weaver (Feb 27, 2004)

lessd said:


> You think like some wall street person is an idiot because he makes over a Mill /year and does not want to use his time to troubleshoot and maintain his/her own equipment, *give me a break*


I don't assume that some Wall Street person making over a million dollars a year is an idiot, I assume he is a criminal.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

weaver said:


> I don't assume that some Wall Street person making over a million dollars a year is an idiot, I assume he is a criminal.


My cousin has one kid on wall St. making that kind of money, now I have to spoil his day telling him his kid is a criminal (and he was such a nice boy), I think I will wait until after father's day.

It better to be an idiot or criminal ??


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Substitute criminal for money-shuffler that contributes nothing useful other than liquidity then.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> My cousin has one kid on wall St. making that kind of money, now I have to spoil his day telling him his kid is a criminal (and he was such a nice boy), I think I will wait until after father's day.
> 
> It better to be an idiot or criminal ??


It is hard to say, but then so many are both. The idiot part may not in every case be true. The criminal part is, although our legal system is so massively screwed up it is in general not possible to try or convict criminals. There is no way any human being can earn a million dollars a year. It is simply not physically possible to work 50 times harder and longer than someone earning $20,000 a year. The remainder is blatantly stolen, taken by persons for no other reason than being who they are, which is among other things in control of the purse strings. What's more, being on Wall St. automatically makes him part of a criminal conspiracy, even if he were only to take a $1 salary.

As to being "nice", it seems unlikely he would ever get mixed up in that den of thieves if he actually were.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

nooneuknow said:


> I do find it pathetic, that by the time the Premiere hit the market, there were smartphones with much more processing power, than the Premiere itself.


First of all, I am not sure that is actually true. I'm not familiar with smart phone processors, so I cannot categorically state it to be false, but while the TiVo systems are not overburdened with resources, their CPUs are fairly powerful, given their cost. The CPUs in my S3 certainly out-performed any single core CPU I have ever had in any of my desktop PCs, and gave a pretty good run for the money a number of the dual core CPUs I have had. Of course, they don't compare to the 6 and 8 core monsters a number of my PCs have in them, but then neither does a smart phone.

The real point here, however, is DVRs do not need radical central processors, especially not when they can sport dedicated RISC processors that do the job far more effectively and efficiently, for less cost to the consumer.



nooneuknow said:


> considering the state of these forums, and people with over 10,000 posts, who never, once, have posted anything productive, or helpful. There's a few left that don't fit that mold, but they're a dying breed on here...


Well, I see your point. I'm certainly not impressed with post count alone, especially not when it comes from thousands of posts in the off-topic areas consisting of fewer than 100 words on average.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Neither do my tuners with Windows Media Center.  Every recording gets its own tuner.


Which means your WMC tuners *DO* have the problem. TiVo assigns every recording its own tuner, just like WMC does. You just don't care becasue you have spent a fairly large amount of money to purchase an ungodly number of tuners just to make sure you don't have to be bothered with conflicts.



mr.unnatural said:


> I can't recall if I was able to work around this on my Tivos by padding both recordings.


That makes it worse, not better.



mr.unnatural said:


> IIRC, I had two S3 Tivos and I would generally schedule back-to-back recordings on the same channel on separate Tivos to avoid the overlap problem. I'm surprised that Tivo hasn't fixed such an obvious problem.


I suspect it may be a patent issue. It's possible it was a performance issue. That, or like me, I suppose it is possible the engineers at TiVo just don't really care too very much about the issue.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Which means your WMC tuners *DO* have the problem. TiVo assigns every recording its own tuner, just like WMC does. You just don't care becasue you have spent a fairly large amount of money to purchase an ungodly number of tuners just to make sure you don't have to be bothered with conflicts.


WMC doesn't truncate recordings on back-to-back shows like a Tivo does. If I schedule a recording in WMC with no padding then the first recording ends at the specified time and the next one begins. I choose to pad recordings to compensate for any slight drift in the PC clock as well as scheduling glitches or overruns due to unexpected schedule changes from the broadcaster.

As far as spending an "ungodly amount of money" on tuners, my overall cost is less than a comparable number of Tivos with even fewer tuners. The beauty of owning a HTPC is that increasing the number of tuners is dirt cheap compared to buying additional Tivos. I've got two Ceton InfiniTV4's and a HDHomeRun Prime for a total of eleven available cablecard tuners.

The HDHR tuners are there simply due to the fact that they're connected to my home network and WMC sees them automatically when scanning for tuners during setup. They're actually used by other HTPCs on the network and I have them configured at the bottom of each channel's priority list in WMC on my primary HTPC so they likely never get used to record programs on that PC.

Of the remaining eight cablecard tuners, I have actually seen as many as six of them in use simultaneously so it's not as extravagant as you make it out to be. I paid $399 for my original InfiniTV4 and the 2nd one only cost about $150 on sale so it was hardly an ungodly amount. FWIW, the $399 I paid for my first InfiniTV4 was one of the best purchases I've ever made for my home theater setup. I'm rarely a first adopter of any new technology, but I couldn't wait to get my hands on one of these tuners. I have to say that I was not disappointed. Six cablecard tuners is my sweet spot, but I wanted to use internal tuners rather than networked tuners so my only option was to get two InfiniTV4's. I may have to swap out the two InfiniTV4's for a PCI-e version of the new InfiniTV6 when it gets released,


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## weaver (Feb 27, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC doesn't truncate recordings on back-to-back shows like a Tivo does. If I schedule a recording in WMC with no padding then the first recording ends at the specified time and the next one begins. I choose to pad recordings to compensate for any slight drift in the PC clock as well as scheduling glitches or overruns due to unexpected schedule changes from the broadcaster....


The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

weaver said:


> The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.


Much as I would like to see this implemented on TiVos, there's no way in H E double hockey-sticks that I would want the current crop of TiVo s/w developers doing it!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

weaver said:


> The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.


I had to go back and refresh my memory as to what you're talking about. I really don't understand the issue or see it as a problem. If I set up a recording for a program and extend the recording time so it overlaps the next time slot and I also schedule a recording on the same channel in that 2nd time slot it would seem logical that two separate tuners should be employed. The DVR should see this as two separate and distinct recordings and should assign separate tuners to each recording. This is exactly the way I'd want the two programs recorded, not as a single combined recording using only one tuner. If this isn't what you're referring to then kindly explain what it is you're going on about. It sounds like you're trying to create a problem where none exists.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I had to go back and refresh my memory as to what you're talking about. I really don't understand the issue or see it as a problem. If I set up a recording for a program and extend the recording time so it overlaps the next time slot and I also schedule a recording on the same channel in that 2nd time slot it would seem logical that two separate tuners should be employed. The DVR should see this as two separate and distinct recordings and should assign separate tuners to each recording. This is exactly the way I'd want the two programs recorded, not as a single combined recording using only one tuner. If this isn't what you're referring to then kindly explain what it is you're going on about. It sounds like you're trying to create a problem where none exists.


The recordings are still separate. The overlapping period is just in both recordings.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> The recordings are still separate. The overlapping period is just in both recordings.


That's what occurs with WMC and separate tuners. Are you saying that you get separate recordings with overlap using a single tuner? If so, that's a pretty slick feature. However, the vast majority of my consecutive recordings tend to occur on different channels so I'd still require separate tuners for each program being recorded. I might have a couple of shows that I record on any given night that occur on the same channel in back-to-back time slots, but they're generally few and far between. The feature you speak of would free up a tuner once in a while, but I'd still need a minimum of 5 or 6 cablecard tuners for all of the shows I record. I also have six ATSC tuners that I use for local channels, but the same premise applies.


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## weaver (Feb 27, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's what occurs with WMC and separate tuners. Are you saying that you get separate recordings with overlap using a single tuner? If so, that's a pretty slick feature. However, the vast majority of my consecutive recordings tend to occur on different channels so I'd still require separate tuners for each program being recorded. I might have a couple of shows that I record on any given night that occur on the same channel in back-to-back time slots, but they're generally few and far between. The feature you speak of would free up a tuner once in a while, but I'd still need a minimum of 5 or 6 cablecard tuners for all of the shows I record. I also have six ATSC tuners that I use for local channels, but the same premise applies.


Yes, it's done with a single tuner. It really is only an issue for me on NFL Sundays. (An issue with TiVo, that is).


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Bigg said:


> Anyone who didn't have a case on their iPhone 4 was an idiot, and no, Apple doesn't provide the requisite case for an iPhone. The spiderweb cracking that you will get on the phone if you don't have it in a case is a whole lot worse than the antenna issue.


The difference is, one is a fault be design, the other only happens by accident.

So your statement is silly.

A phone should not NEED a bumper or a case to function correctly. If you'll recall after the news broke Apple did offer bumpers to i4 owners, to correct the issues.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Bigg said:


> Anyone who is actually using an iPhone without a case in the real world is a blathering idiot, and the spiderweb-cracked screen will probably be a lot worse than the reception problems.


I resemble that remark. I initially had a case on my 4S but after about a year I got sick of the bulk it added so I took it off. I've been carrying it around caseless for about 7 months now. Saturday I dropped it for the first time ever. (even when I had a case) Luckily it just got a little ding on one corner and didn't crack the glass. However I'm still kicking myself for not having a case.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> You think like some wall street person is an idiot because he makes over a Mill /year and does not want to use his time to troubleshoot and maintain his/her own equipment, *give me a break*


Those folks are running the latest TiVo and owned modem and router equipment that has been installed by their HT/LV guy.



weaver said:


> Yes, it's done with a single tuner. It really is only an issue for me on NFL Sundays. (An issue with TiVo, that is).


Would be helpful for the Daily Show and Colbert Report or other 30-minute show combos to not suck up another tuner during that 1-minute overlap. It seems like a really obvious thing to do and stupid to use two tuners to do it.



Langree said:


> A phone should not NEED a bumper or a case to function correctly. If you'll recall after the news broke Apple did offer bumpers to i4 owners, to correct the issues.


But the issue doesn't happen in the first place, unless the phone is taken out of it's case.



Dan203 said:


> I resemble that remark. I initially had a case on my 4S but after about a year I got sick of the bulk it added so I took it off. I've been carrying it around caseless for about 7 months now. Saturday I dropped it for the first time ever. (even when I had a case) Luckily it just got a little ding on one corner and didn't crack the glass. However I'm still kicking myself for not having a case.


I'm almost afraid to touch someone else's iPhone that doesn't have at least an Otterbox Commuter on it, if not a Defender or Lifeproof. They're just too darn fragile.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Would be helpful for the Daily Show and Colbert Report or other 30-minute show combos to not suck up another tuner during that 1-minute overlap. It seems like a really obvious thing to do and stupid to use two tuners to do it.


This is an area where HTPCs with WMC have a clearcut advantage. With Tivos you have to combine recordings for instances like this to preserve your tuners or end up getting additional Tivos so you have enough tuners available. With HTPCs you add as many tuners as you like for just a little extra in cost.

I don't like combining recordings simply because you lose the program title and episode information for the 2nd recording that's been tacked on at the end. You don't have this issue if you record each program individually using separate tuners.

The ability to record using a single tuner for consecutive programs on the same channel while padding both shows is a novel idea and one that was likely patented by DirecTV. If that's the case then Tivo got a taste of their own medicine and would probably get sued up the wazoo by DirecTV if they ever tried to incorporate the same feature. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this feature to show up in any subsequent generation of Tivos if DirecTV does indeed have a lock on it.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> This is an area where HTPCs with WMC have a clearcut advantage. With Tivos you have to combine recordings for instances like this to preserve your tuners or end up getting additional Tivos so you have enough tuners available. With HTPCs you add as many tuners as you like for just a little extra in cost.
> 
> I don't like combining recordings simply because you lose the program title and episode information for the 2nd recording that's been tacked on at the end. You don't have this issue if you record each program individually using separate tuners.
> 
> The ability to record using a single tuner for consecutive programs on the same channel while padding both shows is a novel idea and one that was likely patented by DirecTV. If that's the case then Tivo got a taste of their own medicine and would probably get sued up the wazoo by DirecTV if they ever tried to incorporate the same feature. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this feature to show up in any subsequent generation of Tivos if DirecTV does indeed have a lock on it.


TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.

If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

Bigg said:


> If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.


Even if they did, doesn't TiVo's "no sue" clause with DTV mean that TiVo could go ahead and use it?

I think the issue is probably technical and has more to do with the file system, how recordings are allocated and stored, than it has to do with business issues.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

I really think Bigg is just trolling for reaction, so I'm out.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.
> 
> If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.


It may seem obvious to you, but I'd be surprised if it ever occurred to anyone when Tivos were first developed. If it did, chances are they couldn't figure out a way to implement it. When I realized that my S3 Tivos were clipping shows that overlapped, it was one of the major factors that pushed me towards using a HTPC instead. It's pretty clear that I like to have a lot of tuners and the thought of having an equivalent number of Tivos to suit my needs simply wasn't feasible. Having the ability to upgrade the basic platform with an almost unlimited number of tuners and numerous other things far outweighed any minor annoyances that WMC may have presented. You've got to look at the big picture and not get bogged down with the little things that turn out to be pretty insignificant in the end.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

CuriousMark said:


> Even if they did, doesn't TiVo's "no sue" clause with DTV mean that TiVo could go ahead and use it?
> 
> I think the issue is probably technical and has more to do with the file system, how recordings are allocated and stored, than it has to do with business issues.


That's probably true.



Langree said:


> I really think Bigg is just trolling for reaction, so I'm out.


Sorry you erroneously think that. I just say it like it is.



mr.unnatural said:


> It may seem obvious to you, but I'd be surprised if it ever occurred to anyone when Tivos were first developed. If it did, chances are they couldn't figure out a way to implement it. When I realized that my S3 Tivos were clipping shows that overlapped, it was one of the major factors that pushed me towards using a HTPC instead. It's pretty clear that I like to have a lot of tuners and the thought of having an equivalent number of Tivos to suit my needs simply wasn't feasible. Having the ability to upgrade the basic platform with an almost unlimited number of tuners and numerous other things far outweighed any minor annoyances that WMC may have presented. You've got to look at the big picture and not get bogged down with the little things that turn out to be pretty insignificant in the end.


It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.


It's entirely possible that the original hardware simply wasn't capable of doing it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Sorry you erroneously think that. I just say it like it is.


No, you just say it like you think it is. Facts and opinions aren't the same thing.



> It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.


If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.





mr.unnatural said:


> If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.


It's far easier to implement this feature when everything is digital and you do not have to convert from analog.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.
> 
> If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.


If you have clipping On. Which is one thing I never use. I would rather get the show from somewhere else than have several minutes of the show missing.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> No, you just say it like you think it is. Facts and opinions aren't the same thing.
> 
> If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.


I'm not going to claim that I'm a genius. I'm not. And it was obvious to me.



lpwcomp said:


> It's far easier to implement this feature when everything is digital and you do not have to convert from analog.


It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.



aaronwt said:


> If you have clipping On. Which is one thing I never use. I would rather get the show from somewhere else than have several minutes of the show missing.


It's close enough that you don't lose much.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.


You're not thinking it through. It matters precisely because the TiVo had to convert it. Consider this - you have back to back recordings scheduled on the same channel. One you aren't concerned about quality so set it for "Basic". The other, you do care, so you have set it for "Best". At what quality is the overlap recorded? Was the h/w even capable of switching in mid stream w/o missing anything?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


> You're not thinking it through. It matters precisely because the TiVo had to convert it. Consider this - you have back to back recordings scheduled on the same channel. One you aren't concerned about quality so set it for "Basic". The other, you do care, so you have set it for "Best". At what quality is the overlap recorded?  Was the h/w even capable of switching in mid stream w/o missing anything?


They would have to be the same quality. It would require a little bit of software and some UI elements, moreso than on current all-digital platforms.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Bigg said:


> They would have to be the same quality.


And if they're not? I'm sorry, but IMHO, it would have created more problems than it was worth. And as I indicated, I'm not even sure it was doable with the original h/w.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.


It matters a great deal. The Tivo CPU is woefully underpowered in just about every model they've ever produced. The original analog Tivos had just about enough juice to handle a single stream for playback and recording. This is one area where Tivo has always been cheap in designing their DVRs. Another is the lack of sufficient memory.

It's much less critical these days now that everything has gone digital. Recording a digital stream requires very little CPU power. Recording two separate streams from the same tuner may require a bit of processing, but I have no idea how much is involved. The architecture of recording the same signal as two separate digital streams may sound simple, but it's probably more complex than we realize. If it were really that simple I suspect that Tivo would have implemented it by now.

I may have been obvious to Tivo as well, but probably not achievable with the technology available at the time. Perhaps Tivo will revisit this in the future, but for now, we're stuck with whatever technology they deem necessary.



> It's close enough that you don't lose much.


_ANY_ loss is unacceptable. I see little point in using a DVR in a manner that's going to cut off part of the recording. Padding a Tivo recording isn't something you do because you want to. You do it because you have to.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> It matters a great deal. The Tivo CPU is woefully underpowered in just about every model they've ever produced. The original analog Tivos had just about enough juice to handle a single stream for playback and recording. This is one area where Tivo has always been cheap in designing their DVRs. Another is the lack of sufficient memory.
> 
> It's much less critical these days now that everything has gone digital. Recording a digital stream requires very little CPU power. Recording two separate streams from the same tuner may require a bit of processing, but I have no idea how much is involved. The architecture of recording the same signal as two separate digital streams may sound simple, but it's probably more complex than we realize. If it were really that simple I suspect that Tivo would have implemented it by now.


I don't believe the CPU is responsible for encoding but rather it is done by a special purpose chip but it could only handle one stream per tuner. Also, there *would* be some extra CPU processing required.

It isn't actually necessary to record two separate streams. You could simply link the overlapping blocks to two recordings. The only problem with that method is that it makes the process for freeing up space more complicated, particularly when it comes to "Recently Deleted" recordings. Do DirecTV DVRs have a recently deleted folder? I know they didn't the last time I used one but that was 5 years ago.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

That's a valid point. I suspect most of the processing done on a Tivo is performed by ASICs (i.e., Application Specific Integrated Circuits) that are designed for that purpose. The CPU is mostly for functioning with the Linux OS and controlling other basic software functions.

I can't answer the question about DirecTV DVRs. I dropped DirecTV in favor of FIOS about 6 years ago. The main reason being that I had to decide whether or not to commit to another 2-year contract with DirecTV because my HR10-250 Tivos were about to become useless for DirecTV recording or switch to FIOS and get a S3 Tivo. The new DirecTV HD-DVRs were quite buggy at the time and I was more than a bit hesitant to get locked into a contract not knowing if they were going to pan out. I made the switch to FIOS and never regretted it for an instant.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Bigg said:


> Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment
> 
> 
> > LOL!!! Bet you wish you can take this one back!!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> _ANY_ loss is unacceptable. I see little point in using a DVR in a manner that's going to cut off part of the recording. Padding a Tivo recording isn't something you do because you want to. You do it because you have to.


It sucks on Mythbusters, but most other shows, that 10 seconds doesn't really matter, as it's just junk anyways. It's been a problem with DVRs and VCRs for a long time.



Richard Cranium said:


> Bigg said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> It sucks on Mythbusters, but most other shows, that 10 seconds doesn't really matter, as it's just junk anyways. It's been a problem with DVRs and VCRs for a long time.


The problem is with broadcasters and lack of up-to-date guide data. It's got nothing to do with the recording device as long as the clock is accurate. Part of the problem is the lag time inherent in digital vs. analog broadcasts. Set up two TVs side by side with the same station being shown, except have one tuned to the HD digital channel and the other tuned to the same channel in analog and there's a delay of at least several seconds between them.



Bigg said:


> Why???


The fact that you have to ask says it all.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Your provider also introduces several seconds of lag - which can vary depending on how you get your TV - OTA, satellite, cable, phone. Some easily add 10-30 seconds of delay to the signal. Best way is during a summer popular sporting event - when some goal is made, you'll often hear some houses cheering, followed by more cheering from other houses a few seconds later. Repeat a few seconds later...


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

mr.unnatural said:


> T Set up two TVs side by side with the same station being shown, except have one tuned to the HD digital channel and the other tuned to the same channel in analog and there's a delay of at least several seconds between them.


There is also a difference between different providers. My brother and I were on the phone last fall while we were watching the same football game. He lives in NY and has TWC while I live in Michigan and have Dish, He was watching the action several (maybe 10?) seconds before I was receiving it. After that I compared a game broadcast ota compared to Dish and Dish lagged with that too. I guess lagging is part of satellite service.

EDIT: Sorry Worf, I didn't fully read your post.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Worf said:


> Your provider also introduces several seconds of lag - which can vary depending on how you get your TV - OTA, satellite, cable, phone. Some easily add 10-30 seconds of delay to the signal. Best way is during a summer popular sporting event - when some goal is made, you'll often hear some houses cheering, followed by more cheering from other houses a few seconds later. Repeat a few seconds later...


Exactly. It has nothing to do with analog vs. digital. At school, their signal was 10+ seconds behind OTA, and the school was NTSC over cable, OTA was ATSC-8VSB.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Exactly. It has nothing to do with analog vs. digital. At school, their signal was 10+ seconds behind OTA, and the school was NTSC over cable, OTA was ATSC-8VSB.


There is a definite lag between analog vs. digital from the same provider. To clarify, one of the bars I play pool in has both flat screen digital TVs as well as older CRT displays. When watching a sporting event broadcast on DirecTV, the program on the analog display lags behind the same program on the digital display by more than a few seconds (it could be the other way around as it's been a while since I did the comparison). The lag may be due to the additional processing involved with converting the signal to analog, but I can't say for sure.


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## Richard Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

The lag is most likely due to the time it takes a Sat. Receiver to "de-compress" the signal it receives from the mothership.

Think, a "zip file"


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> There is a definite lag between analog vs. digital from the same provider. To clarify, one of the bars I play pool in has both flat screen digital TVs as well as older CRT displays. When watching a sporting event broadcast on DirecTV, the program on the analog display lags behind the same program on the digital display by more than a few seconds (it could be the other way around as it's been a while since I did the comparison). The lag may be due to the additional processing involved with converting the signal to analog, but I can't say for sure.


It's not necessarily that it's analog or digital, it depends on how the provider set up each system. Some TVs can also introduce input lag, although that's 100's of ms, not 1000's of ms like the broadcast delays. Two different digital providers are likely out of sync with each other as well.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I can only speculate as to why there's a lag, but it does exist. I assume it's due to the processing involved to go from digital to analog. The flat screens are fed the digital outputs from the sat receiver whereas the older analog sets get the analog output. AFAIK, the sat receivers are tuned to the same channels on both TVs and the lag is quite noticeable.

As to how this affects DVR recording and scheduling, I can only assume that the same lag is inherent between digital feeds and the corresponding analog channels. I don't know what's happening in the signal path from the original broadcast, but I assume that the original feed is in HD and then downconverted to standard def for transmitting on the corresponding SD channel. The lag would then be introduced during the conversion process prior to final transmission.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I can only speculate as to why there's a lag, but it does exist. I assume it's due to the processing involved to go from digital to analog. The flat screens are fed the digital outputs from the sat receiver whereas the older analog sets get the analog output. AFAIK, the sat receivers are tuned to the same channels on both TVs and the lag is quite noticeable.
> 
> As to how this affects DVR recording and scheduling, I can only assume that the same lag is inherent between digital feeds and the corresponding analog channels. I don't know what's happening in the signal path from the original broadcast, but I assume that the original feed is in HD and then downconverted to standard def for transmitting on the corresponding SD channel. The lag would then be introduced during the conversion process prior to final transmission.


You could get lag either way in processing.


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