# Game of Thrones - "What Is Dead May Never Die" - 4/15/12 - S02E03



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

That was brilliant. Tyrion continues to be the smartest man on the screen. So does he actually plan to wed Myrcella to the Dorne now that he's found out the spy? Cersei was pissed. Loved it. She actually shoved him to the ground. Ha! Another episode with no Joffrey is good for me!! 

Was that letter to Robb from Theon telling him about the attack? And then he changed his mind? Now he's going to help the attack with his father? Ouch. Didn't think he'd turn on Robb since his dad, as he even said, gave him to them! And they raised him like their own family for 9 years. I don't see how he could turn his back on them. I can't wait to see how this turns out. 

What's the deal with making Shae house maiden to Sansa. She's clearly not cut out for that type of work. 

Poor Jon Snow's face. Of course Lord Mormont knew Castor was giving his boys to the white walkers. Ugh. Sam is going to end up losing a hand. 

Yoren is awesome. "I always hated cross bows, take too long to load!" I'm pissed they killed him off though. 

Oh and how about Margaery knowing Renly is gay and not caring. What a gal!

I don't care about Bran or his dreams. I hope that is going somewhere interesting. 

Another spectacular episode!!


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

So much good stuff in this episode. I think Tyron sent his lover to keep an eye on Sansa and keep her safe.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Gunnyman said:


> So much good stuff in this episode. I think Tyron sent his lover to keep an eye on Sansa and keep her safe.


I don't know why he would want to keep her safe she is the sister of the man holding his brother prisoner. I think he is just trying to keep eyes everywhere in the palace.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

He's trying to keep SHAE safe. He needs a reason for her to be there, so his father won't think he brought her to Kings Landing. She refused to be a scullery maid, so he thought this would be more to her liking.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

It feels like the only family not doing something creepy to their sibling is house stark.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Yeah I meant keeping Shae safe. Too much lortab tonight and I wasn't clear.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Tyrion kept saying "The queen must not know." _Cersei is not the queen._ As he pointed out, she is the queen regent and queen mother. There is no queen until Sansa becomes queen.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I don't know why he would want to keep her safe she is the sister of the man holding his brother prisoner.


Tyrion wants Sansa safe because if Sansa dies (or escapes, or whatever), then Jamie is as good as dead.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't care about Bran or his dreams. I hope that is going somewhere interesting.


Really? You STILL think it's "dreams". Even after being shown, again, in this very episode, more clearly than any previous time it's been alluded to, what is happening AND even after having it pretty much spelled out by Bran himself this time? mmmkay.

Hodor greets Bran's wolf
Wolf's POV and panting along the way to Bran's room with Hodor
Hodor and wolf enter Bran's room
Bran pops awake with his wolf panting on his chest...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Archangel00 said:


> Really? You STILL think it's "dreams". Even after being shown, again, in this very episode, more clearly than any previous time it's been alluded to, what is happening AND even after having it pretty much spelled out by Bran himself this time? mmmkay.
> 
> Hodor greets Bran's wolf
> Wolf's POV and panting along the way to Bran's room with Hodor
> ...


Of course I realize it's more than dreams, I'm not stupid. Obviously you can see I'm following along just dandy. I should have put that word in quotes I suppose. I still am not trilled by this SL and hope it leads to something more.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

madscientist said:


> Tyrion wants Sansa safe because if Sansa dies (or escapes, or whatever), then Jamie is as good as dead.


I suppose it's to keep them both safe, to a degree. I just think Shae is going to give herself away as she doesn't seem like the type that will put up with Sansa ordering her around for very long, that's all I'm saying.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> That was brilliant. Tyrion continues to be the smartest man on the screen. So does he actually plan to wed Myrcella to the Dorne now that he's found out the spy? Cersei was pissed. Loved it. She actually shoved him to the ground. Ha! Another episode with no Joffrey is good for me!!


I want to make a comment on everything, and since your post covers all topics...

I don't think he plans on marrying her off to anyone. His conversation with Littlefinger cleared that up. It was simply a test to find out who the mole was.



photoshopgrl said:


> Was that letter to Robb from Theon telling him about the attack? And then he changed his mind? Now he's going to help the attack with his father? Ouch. Didn't think he'd turn on Robb since his dad, as he even said, gave him to them! And they raised him like their own family for 9 years. I don't see how he could turn his back on them. I can't wait to see how this turns out.


Yes it was. I paused and read the letter. It told him what his father was planning and urged him to quickly get back up north to defend it.

I would have been shocked had he not burned the letter.



photoshopgrl said:


> Poor Jon Snow's face. Of course Lord Mormont knew Castor was giving his boys to the white walkers. Ugh. Sam is going to end up losing a hand.


I think it's really funny (and realistic) how quickly Sam "fell in love" with the girl. These guys are so desperate for any kindness or even a word! In the future, Sam will be very good with computers and will love comic books 



photoshopgrl said:


> Yoren is awesome. "I always hated cross bows, take too long to load!" I'm pissed they killed him off though.


That made zero sense to me. You don't live that long by picking a fight with 20 guys all by yourself. I wish they had done it differently.



photoshopgrl said:


> Oh and how about Margaery knowing Renly is gay and not caring. What a gal!


I was thinking the exact thing: there is a woman who will support you no matter what! even asking if she should bring her brother to help!

All she wants is power. She is going to be very interesting.

Great boobs as well 



photoshopgrl said:


> I don't care about Bran or his dreams. I hope that is going somewhere interesting.


I hope so. So far, he has been travelling as his wolf. Can he travel as any animal? how about a dragon? I think it can be very interesting indeed!



photoshopgrl said:


> Another spectacular episode!!


Date-wise, we're rounding second base and coach is waving us to Third!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> I don't think he plans on marrying her off to anyone. His conversation with Littlefinger cleared that up. It was simply a test to find out who the mole was.


Yes, it was just to find out who the spy was but once he found out he didn't go back on any of it to her. He even said "it's done". So he's just messing with her or he actually went ahead and made that deal?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Yes, it was just to find out who the spy was but once he found out he didn't go back on any of it to her. He even said "it's done". So he's just messing with her or he actually went ahead and made that deal?


The way I interpret it (and I could be wrong) is that all of it was a ruse. He told Littlefinger as much, I think. To go back and have a scene with Cersei just to hammer that point home is probably something they felt would be a waste of a minute and a half. She would know soon enough once she finds her mole rotting in a dungeon.

Besides, all 3 proposals make sense (well, maybe not to the 6 year old who still clings to his mommy's breasts). Maybe one of them will come to fruition anyway!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> The way I interpret it (and I could be wrong) is that all of it was a ruse. He told Littlefinger as much, I think. To go back and have a scene with Cersei just to hammer that point home is probably something they felt would be a waste of a minute and a half. She would know soon enough once she finds her mole rotting in a dungeon.
> 
> Besides, all 3 proposals make sense (well, maybe not to the 6 year old who still clings to his mommy's breasts). Maybe one of them will come to fruition anyway!


Maybe Cercei will hae Myrcella and Tommen get it on to keep the blood lines pure. <vomit>


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I loved the moment where Cersei askes Tommen if he would like it if Joffrey killed Robb and he says, "No, I don't think so."

Hey Cersei - Maybe you won't ruin this one like you ruined Joffrey!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Of course I realize it's more than dreams, I'm not stupid. Obviously you can see I'm following along just dandy. I should have put that word in quotes I suppose. I still am not trilled by this SL and hope it leads to something more.


I think it's safe to say that when they reduce thousands of pages of book into a few hours of TV, they don't leave something in unless it's going to be significant...


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> I don't care about Bran or his dreams. I hope that is going somewhere interesting.


I am halfway through book 3, and for me Bran's story is one of the most interesting so far. I obviously cannot say too much, but from where I am at right now I am excited to see where his story goes.

For me the three best SL to follow are Arya's (3), Jon's(2), and Bran's(1). My opinion will likely change as I read further, but those three have been my favorite throughout the books I have read.

I like Tyrion's and Dany's as well, but the Stark kids got all the good SL in my opinion.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

billypritchard said:


> Hey Cersei - Maybe you won't ruin this one like you ruined Joffrey!


I'll reserve my judgment until Tommen is old enough to have sex


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's safe to say that when they reduce thousands of pages of book into a few hours of TV, they don't leave something in unless it's going to be significant...


One negative with a series like this being made for tv though is that when they leave something out, then you're fairly certain it's NOT signifcant. So if I've had some wild hare-brained theory about something based off of an event in book 1, and then they didn't put it in the tv show, I have to assume my theory was bunk.


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

I have been reading the books to the point the show is at. One thing that I thought was interesting and couldn't find a quick answer for; in the books they say Sansa is like 13, what age is she in the show? Because the actress who plays her cannot be 13 she looks 17 or 18.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mwhip said:


> I have been reading the books to the point the show is at. One thing that I thought was interesting and couldn't find a quick answer for; in the books they say Sansa is like 13, what age is she in the show? Because the actress who plays her cannot be 13 she looks 17 or 18.


I have not read the books but during the season 1 discussions, when people who read the books couldn't shut up about it , there were mentions that the Starks are much older in the show than in the books.

Sansa "has not bled yet". Given that she has eaten well all her life, I would assume she is supposed to be 15 or so on the show.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> In the future, Sam will be very good with computers and will love comic books


...and becomes and expert on Alcatraz...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mwhip said:


> I have been reading the books to the point the show is at. One thing that I thought was interesting and couldn't find a quick answer for; in the books they say Sansa is like 13, what age is she in the show? Because the actress who plays her cannot be 13 she looks 17 or 18.


The "teenagers" in half the shows I watch look like they're approaching 30.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mwhip said:


> I have been reading the books to the point the show is at. One thing that I thought was interesting and couldn't find a quick answer for; in the books they say Sansa is like 13, what age is she in the show? Because the actress who plays her cannot be 13 she looks 17 or 18.


They aged all the Stark kids by a few years. I think they were just uneasy about the kinds of thing these children would be going through...


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

madscientist said:


> Tyrion wants Sansa safe because if Sansa dies (or escapes, or whatever), then Jamie is as good as dead.


She isnt keeping anyone safe. She is there because it gives her reason to be in the castle and will appear less suspicious if seen walking the halls.......say outside Tyrion's door. There is the added benefit that she may report back the occasional rumor to Tyrion as Sansa will surely talk openly around her and may even confide in her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

By the way, Queen Margaery is certainly a good sport about her husband's proclivities.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I'd like to go back to Danny and something that bothered me: when her white horse fell down from exhaustion, I thought it was the perfect chance for all of them to eat (and maybe discover that Dragons like their meat fresh or something like that) and also hydrate (by drinking the blood). I don't get why they are dying in the desert with horses all around them.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I haven't read the books so this is pure speculation. 

But it appears that Bran is connected to the wolf somehow, and is actually seeing through his eyes. Maybe he can even control it once he develops this gift.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

A couple of points:
Just when I thought we ran out of "eeewwww" moments, along comes Queen Margaery!
I knew what Tyrion's plan was as soon as the told the eunuch "The Queen can't know".
So is Theon going to take the one ship and raid the fishing village? There is a part of me that says he can't go against the Starks like that and he has a plan to mitigate the Greyjoy raids
In season 1 Bran's dreams (the raven, the crypt) foreshadowed Ned Stark's death. I'm thinking that there will be a payoff in this season as well. 
"Baratheon family dinners" -- what fun!

And here's a change that I've noticed and want others t comment on:
It seems to me that the opening credits last year only "visited" places that were shown in the episode that followed. This week they went to Vias Dothrak and Dragonstone and AFAIK the episode had nothing to do with Danerys and Stannis.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'd like to go back to Danny and something that bothered me: when her white horse fell down from exhaustion, I thought it was the perfect chance for all of them to eat (and maybe discover that Dragons like their meat fresh or something like that) and also hydrate (by drinking the blood). I don't get why they are dying in the desert with horses all around them.


I thought they were going to have horse burgers for dinner too.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> By the way, Queen Margaery is certainly a good sport about her husband's proclivities.


Yeah, she doesn't care about the king. She only cares about the next king. I hope her kid doesn't turn into a turd like Joffrey.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

They keep having too much that pops up out nowhere. I know they said that Renly has 100,000 loyal followers, but WHY?. He just keeps saying, "I will make a better king." Why? Because he's a faaaaaabuulous decorator? Now he's king of what? Quick cut. Oh, he has a queen and a court and a tournament with Sir Flowery. "Bend a knee!" WTF, for?

That "not a lady" girl is HUGE. Did you see how big she is compared to Lady Stark? Short hair, too. I'm so turned on!

Arya has to get needle back.

It was kinda slow-moving. I got the scheme that Tyrion was conducting. There was no need to run over it repeatedly and have him recap how clever he was.

How does Tyrion get away with punishing the Maester for being loyal to Cersie and the Lannisters? She is gonna know. "Power is a curious thing."

No Joffrey, even when he should have been at the dinner. No Khalessi. HBO is saving actor paychecks if they get paid by the episode.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

netringer said:


> *They keep having too much that pops up out nowhere. I know they said that Renly has 100,000 loyal followers, but WHY?.* He just keeps saying, "I will make a better king." Why? Because he's a faaaaaabuulous decorator? Now he's king of what? Quick cut. Oh, he has a queen and a court and a tournament with Sir Flowery. "Bend a knee!" WTF, for?


This is a good point, because the show can throw out statements but for non-book readers they may not get the significance. Renly has 100k men, that has been mentioned before. In this episode he mentions "I've got the men of the Storm lands and the Reach behind me." Those are very large geographic areas southwest of Kings Landing. The people (well, Lords) there decided that they hated the Lannisters and wanted Renly for king instead. That's why he has all the men.

Heh, maybe I should say Renly has lots of men of the Reach around him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Why is this called "things popping out of nowhere"? characters don't go into suspended animation when they are not on-screen. 

We knew we he ran to. We knew who he ran to with. We knew he had 100,000 men. We knew he made himself king.

When we see him next, we find out how (by marrying the sister, we already knew about the brother). What is it that popped out of nowhere?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Why is this called "things popping out of nowhere"? characters don't go into suspended animation when they are not on-screen.
> 
> We knew we he ran to. We knew who he ran to with. We knew he had 100,000 men. We knew he made himself king.
> 
> When we see him next, we find out how (by marrying the sister, we already knew about the brother). What is it that popped out of nowhere?


I do think it's hard to grasp the geogrpahy unless you actually take a look.

Areas of Control

The HBO site has a good section now showing what area each King claims to control. Not only is Renly's area large, but it's heavily populated. Robb's area of the North is large, but sparsely populated due to the harsher conditions.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> Heh, maybe I should say Renly has lots of men of the Reach around him.


:facepalm:


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tiassa said:


> And here's a change that I've noticed and want others t comment on:
> It seems to me that the opening credits last year only "visited" places that were shown in the episode that followed. This week they went to Vias Dothrak and Dragonstone and AFAIK the episode had nothing to do with Danerys and Stannis.


I noticed this last night too. And yes, I believe that last season they only showed locations they planned to touch on during the episode.



billypritchard said:


> Heh, maybe I should say Renly has lots of men of the Reach around him.


Ha!


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh wow. This is the same person!










Taken from this article:
Gwendoline Christie Talks Digging Deep To Play Brienne 
http://www.accesshollywood.com/game...g-deep-to-play-brienne-of-tarth_article_63383


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I suspect she's having a Peter Dinklage moment, where what has often been a negative in her life will suddenly become a strong positive...


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

netringer said:


> ...That "not a lady" girl is HUGE. Did you see how big she is compared to Lady Stark? Short hair, too. I'm so turned on!





photoshopgrl said:


> Oh wow. This is the same person!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


6'3"!!! Holy **** !!!


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh wow. This is the same person!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They still didn't ugly her up enough.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Can she dunk?


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

netringer said:


> How does Tyrion get away with punishing the Maester for being loyal to Cersie and the Lannisters? She is gonna know. "Power is a curious thing."


Evidently, she doesn't have the ear of the king, anymore, so she's powerless. I guess. Not sure why the Joffrey would be be unconcerned about what Tyrion is up to, though. Also, don't forget that Tyrion is also a Lannister, so Maester was being loyal to one Lannister while betraying another.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Can she dunk?


Thog: Here stadium, where our women basketball teams play.
Kug: We no can dunk, but good fundamentals.
Ornik: That more fun to watch.
[Zapp, Fry and Bender laugh.]


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

markb said:


> Evidently, she doesn't have the ear of the king, anymore, so she's powerless. I guess. Not sure why the Joffrey would be be unconcerned about what Tyrion is up to, though. Also, don't forget that Tyrion is also a Lannister, so Maester was being loyal to one Lannister while betraying another.


Adding to your list: Tyrion also controls the Goldcloacks (or whatever the name of the palace guard and King's Landing police force is). Tyrion now controls everything.

I wonder what the spawn of the new "not a lady" (what is her name?) and Hodor would look like!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...I wonder what the spawn of the new "not a lady" (what is her name?) and Hodor would look like!


Remember how they said there are no more giants and dragons? WRONG!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Can she dunk?


She doesn't have to. She cuts the guy doing defense in half.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Adding to your list: Tyrion also controls the Goldcloacks (or whatever the name of the palace guard and King's Landing police force is). Tyrion now controls everything.


Of course, that could change at any moment if Joffrey said "Off with his head!"...

Is it better to be smart, or King?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, that could change at any moment if Joffrey said "Off with his head!"...
> 
> Is it better to be smart, or King?


Says to whom? Like I said, the Goldcloaks are not in the "king's" control. About the only one Joffrey controls at this point is the Hound; who would fare about as well as Yoren did in a fight against 20 men (including Bronn).

Edit: did I use "whom" correctly here? it feels wrong...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, that could change at any moment if Joffrey said "Off with his head!"...
> 
> Is it better to be smart, or King?


Depends on the sellsword.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, the Kingsguard ARE under the King's direct control. And they are, theoretically, the best of the best. That's why the last time a king was taken down, it was one of the Kingsguard (Jaime) who did the deed...because if anybody else had tried, they would have had to go through Jaime and six other guys who were as good or better.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the Kingsguard ARE under the King's direct control. And they are, theoretically, the best of the best. That's why the last time a king was taken down, it was one of the Kingsguard (Jaime) who did the deed...because if anybody else had tried, they would have had to go through Jaime and six other guys who were as good or better.


Ok, let me do the math...bear with me since I'm not good at math...

so 7 king's guards you say...ok...minus the Kingslayer...that would be (don't tell me)....6 guys, right.

Ok...Goldcloaks...how many would that be? 100 or so? that's about 15 to 17 swords and spears per guard...and I think there are more goldcloaks than 100

I'll take tyrion over the king in that one!


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Ok, let me do the math...bear with me since I'm not good at math...
> 
> so 7 king's guards you say...ok...minus the Kingslayer...that would be (don't tell me)....6 guys, right.
> 
> ...


There is something like 2000 City Watch (goldcloaks). But Joffrey would also command the actual Lannister armies and kings armies. Ned thought having the City Watch on his side would be enough, but obviously he didn't even have them.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JFriday said:


> They still didn't ugly her up enough.


I thought it was fine. I always pictured Tilda Swinton as her in the books for some reason. But's she's not tall enough or manly enough (and my sister said she wasn't ugly enough). But it worked in my head.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I was thinking the exact thing: there is a woman who will support you no matter what! even asking if she should bring her brother to help!


Yes basically she wants to get pregnant by the King, and she'll do anything that needs doing to make sure that happens.



Legion said:


> madscientist said:
> 
> 
> > mwhip said:
> ...


I'm not sure how your comment relates to my comment. I'm talking about why Tyrion wants Sansa safe, which is the question mwhip asked. You seem to be talking about something completely different.



billypritchard said:


> There is something like 2000 City Watch (goldcloaks). But Joffrey would also command the actual Lannister armies and kings armies. Ned thought having the City Watch on his side would be enough, but obviously he didn't even have them.


There's something odd about the power structure here. Joffrey isn't king yet, as far as I remember. Isn't Cersie the Queen Regent because Joffrey is not yet king? But didn't Tywin send Tyrion there to take control of things, because Cersie was botching the job so badly? I think it's not really clear who _officially_ has the power in Kings Landing. But of course as The Spider suggests, who officially has the power is not necessarily the same as who actually has the power.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> I thought they were going to have horse burgers for dinner too.


Who says they're not having horse burgers? There are more horses than just her Silver there, who die.

Yum yum!

I just wanted to point out that I'm okay with them not touching on Daenerys' story and Stannis' story in this episode. There's a lot of story to be told!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm wondering why the guy leading the kids to the wall didn't just kill the two gold cloak guys last week instead of letting them go back and get reinforcements. Whatever his plan was, it didn't work too well.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm wondering why the guy leading the kids to the wall didn't just kill the two gold cloak guys last week instead of letting them go back and get reinforcements. Whatever his plan was, it didn't work too well.


Yeah, I didn't like that they left the stronghold they were in and just rushed headlong out there with a bunch of untrained greenboys. It seemed very foolish.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I thought it was fine. I always pictured Tilda Swinton as her in the books for some reason. But's she's not tall enough or manly enough (and my sister said she wasn't ugly enough). But it worked in my head.


I pictured Marla Hooch.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

madscientist said:


> Yes basically she wants to get pregnant by the King, and she'll do anything that needs doing to make sure that happens.
> 
> I'm not sure how your comment relates to my comment. I'm talking about why Tyrion wants Sansa safe, which is the question mwhip asked. You seem to be talking about something completely different.
> 
> There's something odd about the power structure here. Joffrey isn't king yet, as far as I remember. Isn't Cersie the Queen Regent because Joffrey is not yet king? But didn't Tywin send Tyrion there to take control of things, because Cersie was botching the job so badly? I think it's not really clear who _officially_ has the power in Kings Landing. But of course as The Spider suggests, who officially has the power is not necessarily the same as who actually has the power.


Joffrey is King. Cersei is the Queen Regent. Lord Tywin is the official Hand of the King. Tyrion is acting as Hand in his place.

I think the only sort of 'made up' one is Cersei.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

audioscience said:


> I thought it was fine. I always pictured Tilda Swinton as her in the books for some reason. But's she's not tall enough or manly enough (and my sister said she wasn't ugly enough). But it worked in my head.


Brienne is supposed to be very large, very manly, but with fairly beautiful eyes.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

audioscience said:


> Yeah, I didn't like that they left the stronghold they were in and just rushed headlong out there with a bunch of untrained greenboys. It seemed very foolish.


Hmm. Since it already happened on the show, can I just say how it happened in the book? Or do we consider that spoilery? Plus I think you read the books anyway...



Spoiler



In the book the Lannister men have to basically storm the keep with fire and ladders. Made a lot more sense.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> Hmm. Since it already happened on the show, can I just say how it happened in the book? Or do we consider that spoilery? Plus I think you read the books anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yeah. I agree (and I did read the books, well on #5 now). I just didn't post it since everyone got their panties in a wad over spoiler tags in the last thread.  It was a much more believable scenario. Arya, Lommy and Hot Pie didn't get caught until later either.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

and it begins.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

photoshopgrl said:


> and it begins.


Yeah, we're basically talking about something that I chose not to post originally and me saying that I was trying to avoid the spoiler tags since everyone gets their panties in a wad.

So anyway, the spoiler tags are there for a reason. Get used to it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

audioscience said:


> So anyway, the spoiler tags are there for a reason. Get used to it.


How _dare _you expect me to put up with this just because it's a forum feature!


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

The above sort of spoilers, I don't personally care if they're in spoiler tags. They don't spoil the show at all, because they pertain to things that already happened in the show. The would spoil the books, perhaps, but watching this show spoils to books, too.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Joffrey has been crowned King officially. I think Cierce created her title of Queen Reagent as a way to seem like she holds power, but officially, she has none. She is the mother of the King, and the former Queen, but once Robert Baratheon dies, Joffrey was crowned. 

Joffrey named his grandfather, Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King. That is the position that Eddard Stark help before he was murnered, and John Arryn before him, The Hand of the King is essentially vice-king. His orders are to be taken as if they were from teh King's own mouth when the King is unavailable. Tywin is fighting the war, so he has appointed Tyrion as his proxy, so for all intents and purposes, Tyrion is Hand of the King currently. He is the second most powerful man in the kingdom.

But, as The Spider suggests in the story he told Tyrion, power is a nebulous concept. The person who officially holds power is often not the person to whom those below him are loyal.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> Joffrey has been crowned King officially. I think Cierce created her title of Queen Reagent as a way to seem like she holds power, but officially, she has none. She is the mother of the King, and the former Queen, but once Robert Baratheon dies, Joffrey was crowned.


More specifically, IIRC, according to Robert's will Ned would be Regent until Joffrey came of age (although Ned changed the will to eliminate the specific reference to Joffrey). When Ned was captured, Cersei took the position of Regent. But then Joffrey was crowned almost immediately, which made the Regency irrelevant.

I think that for Cersei, whatever Daddy says goes, which is why she is (reluctantly) putting up with Tyrion. And for Joffrey, whatever Joffrey says goes, which is why everybody should be s#!&ing their pants.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Also, we are in the middle of "The War of the Five Kings" I started working on a brief non-book-spoiler post of who these kings are, what they all want, and why they're fighting, but I thought I'd ask if anyone is confused about it or if everyone's clear on all of their claims.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> More specifically, IIRC, according to Robert's will Ned would be Regent until Joffrey came of age (although Ned changed the will to eliminate the specific reference to Joffrey). When Ned was captured, Cersei took the position of Regent. But then Joffrey was crowned almost immediately, which made the Regency irrelevant.
> 
> I think that for Cersei, whatever Daddy says goes, which is why she is (reluctantly) putting up with Tyrion. And for Joffrey, whatever Joffrey says goes, which is why everybody should be s#!&ing their pants.


Very true, Cersei is claiming a position which is irrelevant since Joffrey was crowned King. By definition, a King who has taken His Throne has no need of a Regent.

And yes, Joffrey nis nuttier than squirell s#!=.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> More specifically, IIRC, according to Robert's will Ned would be Regent until Joffrey came of age (although Ned changed the will to eliminate the specific reference to Joffrey). When Ned was captured, Cersei took the position of Regent. But then Joffrey was crowned almost immediately, which made the Regency irrelevant...


Funny. When I looked up the definition of Queen Regent...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queen+regent
I read it as Queen Regent meant the widow of the king. Doh. It defines Regent and Queen separately.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

netringer said:


> Funny. When I looked up the definition of Queen Regent...
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queen+regent
> I read it as Queen Regent meant the widow of the king. Doh. It defines Regent and Queen separately.


That definition is essentially what would happen when a King dies and leaves behind a son who is too young to rule yet, and had not specified a Regent. The king's wife, presumably the son's mother, would rule in his stead until the king was of age to take the throne himself.

In our world, a King or Queen can appoint a Regent to act in their place when they are away or incapacitated, but in the world of Game of Thrones, the Hand of the King has that role.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Renley does have a lot of men, but as Cat pointed out, why is he sitting there playing at war instead of attacking someone. Rob could use some help. And if he has any true soldiers in his group, they are going to be getting impatient. Cat seemed to think they were all young inexperienced men. Jousting and fighting a war probably 2 different things.....

I'm liking the iron born. No negotiating--pay the iron price for everything. Liked seeing Theon finally tell his father off. The sister is really weird, tho. I can't picture her commanding men.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Fleegle said:


> Also, we are in the middle of "The War of the Five Kings" I started working on a brief non-book-spoiler post of who these kings are, what they all want, and why they're fighting, but I thought I'd ask if anyone is confused about it or if everyone's clear on all of their claims.


I can't speak for everyone but I think I see why they all think they have claim. Except that Robb doesn't want to be _king _king, just kind of the north, right? 
Obviously Stannis and Renly both feel they should be next in line after Robert due to Joffrey not being a Baratheon. 
Danny seems to think she should be queen since the throne was overtaken from the Targaryens by the Baratheons, right?
And as far as the last, I assume that's referring to Joffrey himself who obviously thinks he deserves it being Robert's heir.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I can't speak for everyone but I think I see why they all think they have claim. Except that Robb doesn't want to be _king _king, just kind of the north, right?
> Obviously Stannis and Renly both feel they should be next in line after Robert due to Joffrey not being a Baratheon.
> Danny seems to think she should be queen since the throne was overtaken from the Targaryens by the Baratheons, right?
> And as far as the last, I assume that's referring to Joffrey himself who obviously thinks he deserves it being Robert's heir.


Danny is not part of the War of Five Kings, as she is on a different continent. Here's what I've written up so far. I'm pretty sure everything in this write-up is part of the show at this point. IOW, I don't think I've included any book-based spoilers.

The Kings of the War of Five Kings:

Joffrey Baratheon - He was claimed by the former King, Robert Baratheon as his son, so Joffrey is the direct successor to The Iron Throne after Robert died. However, he is the product of incest and Robert is not his father, so his claim to the throne is invalid. If Joffrey were to die and his claim to the throne not be invalidated, his younger brother Tommen would be next in the line of succession.

Stannis Baratheon - As Robert had no legitimate sons of his own blood, his closest surviving male heir is next in the line of succession. That would be his next younger brother, Stannis, Baratheon. However Stannis is thought by some to be a good soldier, but a poor leader who would be harmful to the kingdom. He does, however, appear to have the clearest legal right to the throne.

Renly Baratheon - Renly holds the allegiance of several significant Houses and their men, totaling over 100,000 soldiers. He is charismatic and believes he should take Robert's crown instead of his brother Stannis because he would be a better ruler. He has no legal claim to the throne other than "I can do the job better, and all these men with swords agree".

Robb Stark - Rob doesn't want The Iron Throne, he simply wants The Kingdom of the North to break away from The 7 Kingdoms and be elft to their own devices. The people in the North have crowned him King of the North. Robb has sent his mother Catelyn Stark to negotiate with Renly Baratheon about an aleigance between the two. Robb will help Renly take The Iron Throne if he agrees to then grant The Kingdom of the North to their own devices.

Balon Greyjoy - He is Lord of the Iron Isles and, Like Robb Stark, wants his Kingdom's independence again. He is planning to attack The Kingdom of the North while Robb's forces are away fighting the Lannisters


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

All these places used to be kingdoms, right? until the Targarians came with their dragons and defeated all the kings (made them just Lords) and made the Iron throne with their swords.

This is the history as I understand it. Do I have it right?

so now everyone is going back to being a king of their land with a weak central government ruled by a sadistic idiot with a disputed claim and who beheaded the wrong guy.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay yeah I forgot about Balon. But what the hell does Danny keep going on about "I will take back what is mine" if not the throne??


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Anubys said:


> All these places used to be kingdoms, right? until the Targarians came with their dragons and defeated all the kings (made them just Lords) and made the Iron throne with their swords.
> 
> This is the history as I understand it. Do I have it right?
> 
> so now everyone is going back to being a king of their land with a weak central government ruled by a sadistic idiot with a disputed claim and who beheaded the wrong guy.


There were 7 kingdoms: The Kingdom of the North, Kingdom of the Vale, Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, Kingdom of the Rock, Kingdom of the Reach, Kingdom of the Stormlands and Kingdom of Dorne.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Seven_Kingdoms



photoshopgrl said:


> Okay yeah I forgot about Balon. But what the hell does Danny keep going on about "I will take back what is mine" if not the throne??


Danny wants to take the throne back, but she is not currently fighting in that war. She is trying to raise an army to sail across teh sea and re-take teh throne.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay that makes sense.


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## Kylep (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the poor kid who was going to be in the nights watch before he took an arrow to the knee.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Kylep said:


> I'm surprised nobody mentioned the poor kid who was going to be in the nights watch before he took an arrow to the knee.


You mean Gendry?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> You mean Gendry?


Heh.

If you're gonna be a rat, you'd better be quick about it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Heh.
> 
> If you're gonna be a rat, you'd better be quick about it.


Yeah none of them wanted to rat him out but they were essentially doing just that because until she said something, everyone was looking right at the real Gendry. This way it just appears as if they were all looking over in that direction at the dead "Gendry".

I'm still pissed about Yoren though.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I was referring to fake Gendry, who planned to rat Gendry out but got himself killed before he could manage it.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was referring to fake Gendry, who planned to rat Gendry out but got himself killed before he could manage it.


Oh gotcha.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Yes it was. I paused and read the letter. It told him what his father was planning and urged him to quickly get back up north to defend it.
> 
> I would have been shocked had he not burned the letter.


I think George R R Martin gives every character a moment, a moment where they make a decision upon which the rest of their lives hangs.

That moment right there, was Theon choosing his path, for good or for ill. He put his hand on the rudder and changed course, and now he has to wait and see how that new course plays out.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Is Baelon Greyjoy really the "5th king"? I thought it was whats his name, the Ex -Night's watchman who is the "King Beyond the Wall".


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

tiassa said:


> Is Baelon Greyjoy really the "5th king"? I thought it was whats his name, the Ex -Night's watchman who is the "King Beyond the Wall".


No, its the 5 kings who are all fighting each other. The King Beyond the Wall is in the lands North of The Wall and has not interacted with anyone except The Night Watch. Baloney Greyhound is preparing to attack Robbie Stark's lands, and calls himself The Iron Kong. He's one of the five.

That's the kind of confusion I hoped to clear up with my post.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> ...calls himself The Iron Kong...


Because he's a hard-headed big ape..?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> I think George R R Martin gives every character a moment, a moment where they make a decision upon which the rest of their lives hangs.
> 
> That moment right there, was Theon choosing his path, for good or for ill. He put his hand on the rudder and changed course, and now he has to wait and see how that new course plays out.


I agree and with that knowledge I'm saddened. I can't imagine the betrayal Robb will feel over this. He doesn't deserve it. He's treated Theon as a brother. Theon's father, however, has never given two ****s about his son and continues to give barely that. I just can't see why he would do it. Blood may be thicker than water but there's a point when you have to look at how blood has treated you compared to others.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I agree and with that knowledge I'm saddened. I can't imagine the betrayal Robb will feel over this. He doesn't deserve it. He's treated Theon as a brother. Theon's father, however, has never given two ****s about his son and continues to give barely that. I just can't see why he would do it. Blood may be thicker than water but there's a point when you have to look at how blood has treated you compared to others.


It's the only decision he can make. He is a Greyjoy. He never forgot that (and the Starks never let him forget it). If he betrays his father and sister for Robb, who is he? what does he become? He can never be Lord or King. He would become nothing. Given his vanity and sense of entitlement (and even without that), he really had no choice.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> It's the only decision he can make. He is a Greyjoy. He never forgot that (and the Starks never let him forget it). If he betrays his father and sister for Robb, who is he? what does he become? He can never be Lord or King. He would become nothing. Given his vanity and sense of entitlement (and even without that), he really had no choice.


Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.


Well, they both assumed Daddy Greyjoy would be a reasonable man. Cat knew better and tried to tell Robb as much.

btw, 2 nights in a row with GOT dreams/nightmares for me. All center on Arya and what is going happen to her now. The suspense is driving me insane!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.


oh, and I would say Theon is Robb's enemy for as long as Balon is alive.

Well, and maybe Yara as well. She has commanded the men and they would probably follow her (until Theon has proven himself). One thing Theon has going for him is how chauvinistic that world is (it's good to be a man!).


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> oh, and I would say Theon is Robb's enemy for as long as Balon is alive.
> 
> Well, and maybe Yara as well. She has commanded the men and they would probably follow her (until Theon has proven himself). One thing Theon has going for him is how chauvinistic that world is (it's good to be a man!).


Well then I will hope for Balon to die shortly.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Let us not forget that Theon has always felt a bit of an outsider. Remember when he saved Bran by shooting the brigand with an arrow? What was Robb's response? "Thank you?". No, he immediately started yelling at Theon about how dangerous it was.

Much like Jon Snow, he was constantly reminded that he's not a Stark. It's interesting to compare the two and see how differently they handle that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Let us not forget that Theon has always felt a bit of an outsider. Remember when he saved Bran by shooting the brigand with an arrow? What was Robb's response? "Thank you?". No, he immediately started yelling at Theon about how dangerous it was.
> 
> Much like Jon Snow, he was constantly reminded that he's not a Stark. It's interesting to compare the two and see how differently they handle that.


YES! Almost the entire first season, they were as mean to him as they were to Jon Snow. Then it became clear that they were just brothers teasing, hurting, each other as brothers will often do. Without the meanness and venom of the Lannisters, though. Those scars are deep and we can see how hurt Jon has always been. Now we are seeing that Theon has the same demons.

I don't question the love that Robb and Theon have for each other. But I saw no other choice possible for Theon and I leave the door open for him to make peace (unless he crosses a threshold later that cannot be uncrossed).

It's all so COMPLICATED!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> ...btw, 2 nights in a row with GOT dreams/nightmares for me. All center on Arya and what is going happen to her now. The suspense is driving me insane!


Not a spoiler because I dunno a thing: Arya's direwolf is still out there. Look for Arya and Gendry to have a rescuer.

Can we see that the Starks can use their direwolves like the Targarians use their dragons?

I just remembered that Ned Stark sorta started it with the Lannisters when he issued the summon for Tywin Lannister from the throne.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

netringer said:


> Not a spoiler because I dunno a thing: Arya's direwolf is still out there. Look for Arya and Gendry to have a rescuer.


I was assuming her wolf would have to show up sooner or later. I wish she spoke of him though to not only remind viewers but to show how deeply connected they are and how much she misses her wolfie.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I was assuming her wolf would have to show up sooner or later. I wish she spoke of him though to not only remind viewers but to show how deeply connected they are and how much she misses her wolfie.


FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

netringer said:


> I just remembered that Ned Stark sorta started it with the Lannisters when he issued the summon for Tywin Lannister from the throne.


Not sure I'd agree with that. Ned did that because The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clagain, was it?) had gone on ransacking towns in Cat's homelands. That was in retaliation for Cat seizing Tyrion, which was in turn for pushing Bran out the window (she had the wrong guy, but the right family).

Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?

About this week's episode, do we have any idea where Arya and the other were at in their journey? Where were they located, and what was that building that they were staying in?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. *The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.*


Ah, that I did not know. :up:


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that. Ned did that because The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clagain, was it?) had gone on ransacking towns in Cat's homelands. That was in retaliation for Cat seizing Tyrion, which was in turn for pushing Bran out the window (she had the wrong guy, but the right family).


Right. It's Jamie who started it.

Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

netringer said:


> Right. It's Jamie who started it.
> 
> Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?


Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.


The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.


Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.


And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.


Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story. 
Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run). 
Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.


Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet _against_ his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."

So Tyrion claims never to have owned the dagger. Littlefinger says it was his at first and that Tyrion won it from him. Take from that what you will, but I don't see a path in there where it was Tyrion's dagger and Jamie took it from him. It was either (A) Tyrion's and he is lying, and was somehow involved in Bran's attack in his bedroom, or (B) Littlefinger is lying for reasons unknown, and someone else, possibly Littlefinger himself, was involved in the second attack on Bran.

Disclaimer: Although I am reading the books, I do not know for certain who was involved in that incident, but I know that either Littlefinger or Tyrion is lying about who owned the dagger.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.


My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion. I was just saying that there is nothing to point to that.

And if we are going to go down that road, Bran should not have been peeping on people doing the naughty bang bang. He could have saved a whole lot of people trouble if he just passed that window on by.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?


At least one step farther--Jon Arryn died because _he _ found out about Jamie and Cersei.

Jamie is in a lot of ways the root cause of the war, but he's the Gavrilo Princip (the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand which led to WWI) of this story.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion.


That wasn't me.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

netringer said:


> Right. It's Jamie who started it.
> 
> Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?





Shaunnick said:


> Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.





Shaunnick said:


> My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion. I was just saying that there is nothing to point to that.
> 
> And if we are going to go down that road, Bran should not have been peeping on people doing the naughty bang bang. He could have saved a whole lot of people trouble if he just passed that window on by.





LordKronos said:


> That wasn't me.


Sorry, Netringer is who I meant!


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?


If my memory serves, and most of this is explained better in the book and is hard to ascertain from the show, Cat is trying to lay low and remain hidden so no one knows her whereabouts as she returns to Winterfell. Her head could be worth a lot, especially to the Lannisters. So her first instinct is to hide and hope Tyrion will not see her or recognize her. In the book, and this isn't really a spoiler, just more of an explanation, she runs through her head all of the people at the inn and recognizes that many are either vassals to her father in Riverrun or somehow vassals or bound to Winterfell. So when she recognizes that Tyrion is going to see her, she realizes that her best bet is to rally out all the men who rightfully should stand behind her and arrest Tyrion based on the claims that he tried to murder her son. That's her best escape route to get the numbers on her side quickly. Bronn, the sellsword also happens to be there and says he will help because he knows there's coin in it.

Remember that she was in King's Landing secretly and no one save the Starks and Littlefinger knew she was there, or why.



> About this week's episode, do we have any idea where Arya and the other were at in their journey? Where were they located, and what was that building that they were staying in?


If you look at the map they were not far from Harrenhall, in an abandoned keep in a town on the edge of God's Eye. It's not explained at all where they are in the show.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

billypritchard said:


> And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?


Or if they'd have just been able to keep their crap together. I still find it a bit hard to believe these two have been secretly having sex for years and they are still sooooo hot for each other they have to sneak away having sex in someone else's house. Ugh. That just bugs.



tiassa said:


> Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
> *Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another*, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
> Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).


But that's not true.



Shaunnick said:


> Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet _against_ his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."
> 
> So Tyrion claims never to have owned the dagger. Littlefinger says it was his at first and that Tyrion won it from him. Take from that what you will, but I don't see a path in there where it was Tyrion's dagger and Jamie took it from him. It was either (A) Tyrion's and he is lying, and was somehow involved in Bran's attack in his bedroom, or (B) Littlefinger is lying for reasons unknown, and someone else, possibly Littlefinger himself, was involved in the second attack on Bran.
> 
> Disclaimer: Although I am reading the books, I do not know for certain who was involved in that incident, but I know that either Littlefinger or Tyrion is lying about who owned the dagger.


Wow I think you just cleared that up for me. I hadn't realized that Tyrion said he never bet against his brother (or I did and forgot) so you're right....and I don't think Tyrion is lying.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

tiassa said:


> Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
> Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
> Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).


That's actually a very good assertion and I can honestly say that although I'm reading the books, I've never looked at it exactly that way. Well done!



photoshopgrl said:


> But that's not true.


But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

tiassa said:


> Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
> Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
> Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).


DING! DING! DING!
At least one other person is paying attention around here.......


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Archangel00 said:


> DING! DING! DING!
> At least one other person is paying attention around here.......


So I guess the rest of us aren't.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

photoshopgrl said:


> Or if they'd have just been able to keep their crap together. I still find it a bit hard to believe these two have been secretly having sex for years and they are still sooooo hot for each other they have to sneak away having sex in someone else's house. Ugh. That just bugs.


I think the sheer geographical and chronological scale of this story might be escaping you. Traveling from King's Landing to Winterfell takes weeks, months (c. 1500 miles). There are a lot of pretty substantial time-jumps that get glossed over in the show (and in the books, for that matter; there's no seventy pages of "and the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next..."). I doubt you could expect two lovers who are traveling together for the better part of a year to keep it in their pants until they get home...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

About the dagger:

The impression I got was that Jaime lost that battle on purpose (to someone who would benefit from winning, get promoted, and be placed in a spot where he can help the Lannisters). Tyrion, knowing of the plot, bet against Jaime and won the dagger; much to Littlefinger's dismay.

Now, again, Littlefinger may have been lying about the story. But it's certainly plausible.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

audioscience said:


> But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.


Thank-you audioscience, that was exactly the analogy I was trying to draw.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

audioscience said:


> But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.


I think you're WAY overthinking it. A circumstantial chain of events doesn't mean A caused B.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> I think you're WAY overthinking it. A circumstantial chain of events doesn't mean A caused B.


I think the idea being brought forth is the mythical portent of the stag and the wolf.

But I don't understand your point at all, even if we're just talking about the facts. If GOT is anything, it's that each person's actions cause ripples and reactions by many people. The intertwining of all these actions and reactions (cause and effect) is exactly what the show is about. So I really don't understand your denial.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> About the dagger:
> 
> The impression I got was that Jaime lost that battle on purpose (to someone who would benefit from winning, get promoted, and be placed in a spot where he can help the Lannisters). Tyrion, knowing of the plot, bet against Jaime and won the dagger; much to Littlefinger's dismay.
> 
> Now, again, Littlefinger may have been lying about the story. But it's certainly plausible.


Do you know what gave you that impression? I'm not saying you are wrong, but just wondering. If that's what really happened, that would explain a lot. If the knife really were stolen from him and he had no idea where it went, then lying and saying "I'd never bet against my brother" would actually be more believable than the truth of "honestly, someone stole it, I swear".

And despite his knack for deception, I'm not sure I'm convinced why Littlefinger would have been involved in any way. Hell, I don't think he could be. Wasn't the attack on Bran done before everyone had arrived in Kings Landing? In order for Littlefinger to be involved, they would have had to get word all the way from Winterfell to Kings Landing, then get the knife all the way from King's Landing to Winterfell, all in a relatively short period of time. And that wouldn't even explain why Littlefinger would have been involved in the first place. And if he wasn't involved, that would be a hell of a convoluted plot to send someone all the way down there to steal his knife and frame him.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Do you know what gave you that impression? I'm not saying you are wrong, but just wondering. If that's what really happened, that would explain a lot. If the knife really were stolen from him and he had no idea where it went, then lying and saying "I'd never bet against my brother" would actually be more believable than the truth of "honestly, someone stole it, I swear".
> 
> And despite his knack for deception, I'm not sure I'm convinced why Littlefinger would have been involved in any way. Hell, I don't think he could be. Wasn't the attack on Bran done before everyone had arrived in Kings Landing? In order for Littlefinger to be involved, they would have had to get word all the way from Winterfell to Kings Landing, then get the knife all the way from King's Landing to Winterfell, all in a relatively short period of time. And that wouldn't even explain why Littlefinger would have been involved in the first place. And if he wasn't involved, that would be a hell of a convoluted plot to send someone all the way down there to steal his knife and frame him.


The way Littlefinger told the story (imagine that, the one time Jaime loses a battle, and it's to someone who was terrible, AND his brother just happened to bet against him!). Also, I think the guy who beat Jaime is the one who became a knight and was killed by the Mountain (Hound's brother). Payment (getting knighted and getting killed to be silenced!) for killing Jon Arryn.

Don't get me wrong, I could be so wrong here that it's not even funny.

This also doesn't mean that the dagger could not be legitimately stolen from Tyrion by someone and Tyrion not knowing anything about it. As he said (paraphrasing) "what kind of a fool would give the assassin his own dagger to use for a murder?".


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the sheer geographical and chronological scale of this story might be escaping you. Traveling from King's Landing to Winterfell takes weeks, months (c. 1500 miles). There are a lot of pretty substantial time-jumps that get glossed over in the show (and in the books, for that matter; there's no seventy pages of "and the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next..."). I doubt you could expect two lovers who are traveling together for the better part of a year to keep it in their pants until they get home...


Oh well yes, I suppose I haven't thought enough about the time it takes to travel in this world. That does put a bit of a different spin on my thoughts then.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion.


Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.


This post made my day.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

stellie93 said:


> Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.


Ha! :up:


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> Oh well yes, I suppose I haven't thought enough about the time it takes to travel in this world. That does put a bit of a different spin on my thoughts then.


I put all distances in perspective relative to king Robert's trip to Winterfell. IIRC, that took 1 month. I figure that's the slowest you can make the trip (given the large size of his caravan); which still makes it a formidable trip.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I put all distances in perspective relative to king Robert's trip to Winterfell. IIRC, that took 1 month. I figure that's the slowest you can make the trip (given the large size of his caravan); which still makes it a formidable trip.


That's 50 miles per day, which is a pretty spectacular sustained rate in pre-industrial times...


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's safe to say that when they reduce thousands of pages of book into a few hours of TV, they don't leave something in unless it's going to be significant...


Speaking of book:


Spoiler



Come on. It barely leads anywhere in 4 books. It's not until #5 that we really get any payoff.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Fleegle said:


> I'm pretty sure everything in this write-up is part of the show at this point. IOW, I don't think I've included any book-based spoilers.
> 
> The Kings of the War of Five Kings:
> 
> 8:45 at phoenix office.


I don't recall the phoenix office being part of the show. 



LordKronos said:


> The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.


Correction: The attack on Bran's life was done with a dagger that _Littlefinger says_ Tyrion won from Littlefinger.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Correction: The attack on Bran's life was done with a dagger that _Littlefinger says_ Tyrion won from Littlefinger.


giggle...your smeek is showing!


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> I don't recall the phoenix office being part of the show.


Haha! Some other notes got pasted in with that!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Bron the Sellsword used be a singing sword!

http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/...ed-to-be-a-huge-and-hugely-lame-pop-star-.php


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

*SNL Explains the Nudity in Game of Thrones*
HBO's Game of Thrones has a lot of nudity in it, sometimes that nudity seems completely gratuitous and unnecessary. Last night, Saturday Night Live proposed a theory as to why that is.

http://gawker.com/5902076/snl-explains-the-nudity-in-game-of-thrones


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Anubys said:


> The way Littlefinger told the story (imagine that, the one time Jaime loses a battle, and it's to someone who was terrible, AND his brother just happened to bet against him!).


I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."

You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.



Shaunnick said:


> Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet _against_ his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."


Likewise, I just skimmed the entire season and watched every Tyrion dialog. I couldn't find anywhere that he said he never bet against his brother. The phrase seems familiar but I didn't find it anywhere. Was it perhaps someone else saying they wouldn't bet again Jamie? Do you know when this supposed conversation with Tyrion took place ? I just can't find a trace of it. The only conversation with Cat was [paraphrased] "I'm not a murderer", "neither am I", "your knife was.....", "what kind of idiot arms an assassin with his own blade". Interesting that he cut her off, already knowing what she was going to say. Yet there was no previous discussion about this, at least not in the show.

Did either of you perhaps read the book, and this was something from there and not the show?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Did either of you perhaps read the book, and this was something from there and not the show?


I can't recall whether the line was spoken in the show but it does appear in the last lines in the fourth Tyrion chapter in the first book. This is right after they have survived the attack on the way to the Vale. I may go back and have a look on HBO On Demand.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."
> 
> You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.


But in order to have lost the bet, Tyrion would have had to have bet against Jamie. And he'd never do that. Heck, why would anybody? Jamie, at that point, is well renowned as the best fighter in the Kingdom.

The scene in question is after Catelyn has captured Tyrion and they are on their way to the Vale. They are attacked. After the fighting is over.

I can't cut/paste from the TV show, so the below, spoilered in case it offends, is the appropriate paragraph from the book:



Spoiler



As I was saying before we were so rudely interrupted, Tyrion began, there is a serious flaw in Littlefingers fable. Whatever you may believe of me, Lady Stark, I promise you thisI never bet against my family.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Ereth said:


> I can't cut/paste from the TV show, so the below, spoilered in case it offends, is the appropriate paragraph from the book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, if that's what the book says thats fine. It just wasn't said in the show. I've got the bluray in front of me. The summary of the scene is:

Cat says remove his hood
They talk about supposedly "riding to winterfell", and everyone looking for Tyrion in wrong place
Tyrion asks to be untied...where will he go with hill tribes & shadowcats
shadowcats are the least of his worries
Discuss eastern road to the vale
Talk about Cat's sister
The "kill me now", "I'm not murderer" words I mentioned earlier where Tyrion says he'd be stupid to give the assassin his own blade.
Other guy says gag him, Tyrion says "why am I starting to make sense"
The attack happens
Asks Cat to "untie me"
bashes guy to death with shield
Talk about need lady after Tyrions first kill..."I'm willing if she is"
end scene


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

The fun part is that I can't read any Tyrion lines from the book now without hearing them in Peter Dinklage's voice and delivery. Which makes me think I saw them in the show.

He just owns that part so much.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."
> 
> You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.
> 
> ...


It is in the show, in the episode where she takes him to the Eyrie. It is a discussion they have on the road.

And I misquoted, What he actually said was, "I never bet against my family."


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Ereth said:


> The fun part is that I can't read any Tyrion lines from the book now without hearing them in Peter Dinklage's voice and delivery. Which makes me think I saw them in the show.
> 
> He just owns that part so much.


:up: x 1000


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> It is in the show, in the episode where she takes him to the Eyrie. It is a discussion they have on the road.
> 
> And I misquoted, What he actually said was, "I never bet against my family."


Sorry, but it's not in the episode. End of episode 4, he's taken into custody. Episode 5, the first time we see Tyrion, it is for the discussion which I outlined above. And discussion about betting against Jamie or his family never happens. The next time we see Tyrion they are meeting the Knights of the Vale just outside the Eyrie. Only thing Tyrion says is about how the Eyrie is impregnable.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Sorry, but it's not in the episode. End of episode 4, he's taken into custody. Episode 5, the first time we see Tyrion, it is for the discussion which I outlined above. And discussion about betting against Jamie or his family never happens. The next time we see Tyrion they are meeting the Knights of the Vale just outside the Eyrie. Only thing Tyrion says is about how the Eyrie is impregnable.


Well, I have been searching with Google for the past hour and I cannot find a transcript or a quote from the TV series stating as much. It occured to me he may have said it to Bronn after his departure from the Eyrie but no luck there either. I have read through the first two books and am working on the third, I was certain that quote was from the TV series. If they left it out I think that is crazy as the quote lends some credit to Tyrion's innocence.

After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Well, I have been searching with Google for the past hour and I cannot find a transcript or a quote from the TV series stating as much. It occured to me he may have said it to Bronn after his departure from the Eyrie but no luck there either. I have read through the first two books and am working on the third, I was certain that quote was from the TV series. If they left it out I think that is crazy as the quote lends some credit to Tyrion's innocence.
> 
> After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.


Even if he said it, it would depend on the context and it may have no meaning regarding the dagger.

I think it's safe to say we have no clue.

When was the attempt on Bronn's life? had Ned made it to King's Landing by then? (which would give the dagger time to make it up there and would widen the net of potential murderers considerably).


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Even if he said it, it would depend on the context and it may have no meaning regarding the dagger.
> 
> I think it's safe to say we have no clue.
> 
> When was the attempt on Bronn's life? had Ned made it to King's Landing by then? (which would give the dagger time to make it up there and would widen the net of potential murderers considerably).


The attempt on Bran was made after the King's party left for King's landing, but before it got there.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> The attempt on Bran was made after the King's party left for King's landing, but before it got there.


So Jaime or Cersei ask someone to kill Bronn (Varys or Littlefinger could still be asked via r-mail). That someone is either told by Jaime or Cersei to use this specific dagger or the person who is ordering the hit decides to use it as a "get you" to follow the orders but implicate Littlefinger or Tyrion.

IOW: anyone could have done it for any reason. The dagger may have been stolen, or not. The dagger may have been used on purpose by the Lannisters or the Killer, for a multitude of reasons (including "how stupid would I be to use my own dagger for the murder" defense).

We know NOTHING


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Bran is the Stark boy who was pushed from the tower in Winterfell.

Bronn is the sellsword who works for Tyrion.

Brienne is the Maid of Tarth.

At this rate we'll run out of B names and we'll soon find ourselves with characters named Bing, Bang, and Bong.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

What we do know for sure:

The dagger was distinctive and unique. Easy to trace to it's owner. 
Littlefinger was clearly the owner at one point.
Littlefinger is one of the best at lying to your face.

Now, can anybody at all think of any reason to use a distinctive dagger in this attack? An attack planned so that nobody would be there and Bran would be defenseless becaus Winterfell was on fire, which required at least two people (one to set the fires, and yet get away so that they are never found, and the assassin who did not have time to set the fires AND get to Brans bedroom).

Anybody capable of setting up that plan would have used a plain nondescript weapon. The only reason to use a distinctive weapon is to cast suspicion on someone.

At this point we have had that suspicion cast on both Littlefinger and Tyrion. But the deeper question is why? Who would benefit from either of those having suspicion cast upon either of them?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I love reading the books now after seeing the first season. Stuff makes so much more sense to me. Also I love seeing all the characters in my head as I read.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.


Like I said, I skimmed the entire season 1 yesterday, watching all of Tyrion's parts, and I couldn't find it said anywhere. I was even deperate enough to try and find it episodes 9/10 when Tyrion is talking to Tywin. The only episode I did NOT watch was episode 1, which takes place before Bran is even hurt. So unless it was episode 1 and the context had nothing to do with the dagger, or unless I accidentally skipped a Tyrion scene when skimming (not likely, but possible), Tyrion never said those words.

Yet those words seemed so familiar. So now I'm wondering if it was in a Ned/Jamie scene, and it was Jamie saying his brother would never bet against him.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

So have we all decided that Lord Kronos is the 8th kingdom?


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> So Jaime or Cersei ask someone to kill Bronn (Varys or Littlefinger could still be asked via r-mail). That someone is either told by Jaime or Cersei to use this specific dagger or the person who is ordering the hit decides to use it as a "get you" to follow the orders but implicate Littlefinger or Tyrion.
> 
> IOW: anyone could have done it for any reason. The dagger may have been stolen, or not. The dagger may have been used on purpose by the Lannisters or the Killer, for a multitude of reasons (including "how stupid would I be to use my own dagger for the murder" defense).
> 
> We know NOTHING


Considering that the assassination plan was to quietly slice up the sleeping kid Stark while everyone was dealing with the fire, what difference did it make what dagger was used? He was supposed to leave it behind to implicate Tyrion/Littlefinger?

BTW, I like how Cersie/Jamie say, "So you say..." about the killing to Lady Stark. Not that she was cut up by that very dagger while defending herself, not to mention that the Starks have the assassin's de-throated body.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

netringer said:


> Considering that the assassination plan was to quietly slice up the sleeping kid Stark while everyone was dealing with the fire, what difference did it make what dagger was used? He was supposed to leave it behind to implicate Tyrion/Littlefinger?
> 
> BTW, I like how Cersie/Jamie say, "So you say..." about the killing to Lady Stark. Not that she was cut up by that very dagger while defending herself, not to mention that the Starks have the assassin's de-throated body.


I would assume the dagger was to be left behind. As you say, why else would it be used?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Ereth said:


> What we do know for sure:
> 
> The dagger was distinctive and unique. Easy to trace to it's owner.
> Littlefinger was clearly the owner at one point.
> Littlefinger is one of the best at lying to your face.


Correction: Littlefinger _ says _ he was the owner at one point.

As you say, he is the best at lying.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> So have we all decided that Lord Kronos is the 8th kingdom?


Oh, come on man. Spoiler tags


Spoiler



You aren't supposed to know about me yet. I don't show up until book 7


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

lol


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> Oh, come on man. Spoiler tags
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Hah. When someone up thread mentioned you (Lord Kronos), it took me a minute to figure out who he was talking about.

I was thinking,"who the hell is he calling Lord Kronos?!?"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

audioscience said:


> I was thinking,"who the hell is he calling Lord Kronos?!?"


Must be an actor on the show who's known for playing Lord Kronos in some other show I haven't seen...


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## Snappa77 (Feb 14, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?





audioscience said:


> If my memory serves, and most of this is explained better in the book and is hard to ascertain from the show, Cat is trying to lay low and remain hidden so no one knows her whereabouts as she returns to Winterfell. Her head could be worth a lot, especially to the Lannisters. So her first instinct is to hide and hope Tyrion will not see her or recognize her. In the book, and this isn't really a spoiler, just more of an explanation, she runs through her head all of the people at the inn and recognizes that many are either vassals to her father in Riverrun or somehow vassals or bound to Winterfell. So when she recognizes that Tyrion is going to see her, she realizes that her best bet is to rally out all the men who rightfully should stand behind her and arrest Tyrion based on the claims that he tried to murder her son. That's her best escape route to get the numbers on her side quickly. Bronn, the sellsword also happens to be there and says he will help because he knows there's coin in it.
> 
> Remember that she was in King's Landing secretly and no one save the Starks and Littlefinger knew she was there, or why.


I loved this scene. Because of *this* discussion I went and watched that scene again. My problem... it led me to re-watch about 4 eps of season one again.

My plan was today was to catch up on True Blood but G.o.T. got me sucked in.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I would assume the dagger was to be left behind. As you say, why else would it be used?


Because it was the dagger the guy found when he needed to steal one to use?

Nah, way to simple for this show.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Correction: Littlefinger _ says _ he was the owner at one point.
> 
> As you say, he is the best at lying.


Good point. So the possibilities are:

1 - Littlefinger DID own the blade
2 - Littlefinger did NOT own the blade.

Why would he claim ownership if he never owned it? The only thing he does with that claim is to throw suspicion on Tyrion.

Which leads us back to... why would he want to throw suspicion on Tyrion? If he didn't have it at all, or he lied about how he lost it, either way he's throwing suspicion on Tyrion. And, at that point, Tyrion is almost a non-entity. A little man who spends his time with hookers and booze (he'd fit in here!) and reads a lot but has shown no interest in politics (this clearly changes).

Perhaps he wanted to set the Starks against the Lannisters. Tywin, Jamie, Cersei, all too dangerous to call out. Tyrion, though... who would rise to his defense? His own sister and father despise him.

There's always the possibility he's telling the truth, but when it comes to Petyr, I find that possibility unlikely, no matter what he's saying.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Haven't you read the books, Ereth?


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Haven't you read the books, Ereth?


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Haven't you read the books, Ereth?


Yes, but on this particular topic I've completely forgotten the payoff. I don't remember where it leads. There's a LOT of book, after all. I re-read the whole thing when the last book came out, but that was a while ago. I no longer have the recall I once had.

But if you'd prefer, I'll stop participating. I don't mean to cause problems. I have been very careful to avoid conversations where I did know the answer from the books, but I admit I am not perfect and could have made a mistake without realizing it.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I've not noticed any issues. I just thought it odd that you were posing questions if you've read the books.

I'll be honest, I don't remember exactly either but I think I have an idea.

Carry on.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The answer to the dagger mystery in the books kind of slipped by quietly, and wasn't terribly satisfying. If they decide to go a different route on the show, that could be a positive thing...


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Not a problem, I was just confused. I couldn't tell if you were just trying to feign ignorance, or if it was genuine.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

JETarpon said:


> Not a problem, I was just confused. I couldn't tell if you were just trying to feign ignorance, or if it was genuine.


LOL...I know you didn't mean it that way, but I need to remember to use that when I want to insult someone.

I'm evaluating everything you've said and I can't decide if you're stupid or just pretending to be


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm sure he just can't appreciate what a GENIUS you are!


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> LOL...I know you didn't mean it that way, but I need to remember to use that when I want to insult someone.
> 
> I'm evaluating everything you've said and I can't decide if you're stupid or just pretending to be


A common mistake is to equate ignorance with stupidity. They are not the same. For instance, I'm ignorant of your real name. That doesn't make me stupid, it just means there is knowledge I do not have. There is a lot of knowledge I do not have. In fact, given how much there is to know in the world, I would suggest that the amount of things any one individual knows is dwarfed by the amount of things that individual does not know.

His point is well taken. Did I really not know, or was I pretending not to know so I could lead the discussion down a path where "we" worked it out together?

In this case, I'd legitimately forgotten. In fact, now that I've been reminded, I realize my thinking was leading me in the wrong direction. But, because I do now know, I can't comment on that direction any more.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ereth said:


> A common mistake is to equate ignorance with stupidity. They are not the same. For instance, I'm ignorant of your real name. That doesn't make me stupid, it just means there is knowledge I do not have. There is a lot of knowledge I do not have. In fact, given how much there is to know in the world, I would suggest that the amount of things any one individual knows is dwarfed by the amount of things that individual does not know.
> 
> His point is well taken. Did I really not know, or was I pretending not to know so I could lead the discussion down a path where "we" worked it out together?
> 
> In this case, I'd legitimately forgotten. In fact, now that I've been reminded, I realize my thinking was leading me in the wrong direction. But, because I do now know, I can't comment on that direction any more.


I was just taking a well-intentioned post and trying to make it funny...stupid just made it funnier, I thought...just kidding...I knew he wasn't insulting you and I wasn't trying to do that, either.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I was just taking a well-intentioned post and trying to make it funny...stupid just made it funnier, I thought...just kidding...I knew he wasn't insulting you and I wasn't trying to do that, either.


And your post was funny. That just turns out to be one of my hot buttons. I have people get upset all the time because they think I mean stupid when I simply mean "lack of knowledge".

Well, ok, not "all the time", but when it does happen it turns into major drama.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

To be fair, however, while technically it can be used in a neutral way, "ignorant" is generally considered a pretty insulting word.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

But I know Ereth well enough that I knew I could make that statement and there would be no offense.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But Ereth was confessing that he uses "ignorant" in a neutral manner and then goes into lecture mode when people take it the "wrong" way (which is in fact the way the word is almost always used).

It's a kind of fake outrage that presses MY buttons.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I get annoyed with the stupid people who don't know what ignorant means too. Ignorant people that don't know what stupid means, well that's an entirely different topic.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

One of my old teachers used to say you can fix ignorant. You can't fix stupid.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> To be fair, however, while technically it can be used in a neutral way, "ignorant" is generally considered a pretty insulting word.


By whom? And why?



> But Ereth was confessing that he uses "ignorant" in a neutral manner and then goes into lecture mode when people take it the "wrong" way (which is in fact the way the word is almost always used).
> 
> It's a kind of fake outrage that presses MY buttons.


I'm sorry, are you suggesting that because the common people misuse a word to mean something else, that means we have to stop using it correctly? We have abandoned all hope of educating them, and just have to live in a world where all the words are misused on a regular basis?

There's no fake outrage on my part. It truly pisses me off.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But Ereth was confessing that he uses "ignorant" in a neutral manner and then goes into lecture mode when people take it the "wrong" way (*which is in fact the way the word is almost always used*).


Only by those who are ignorant


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I get ignorant with the annoyed people who don't know what stupid means.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ereth said:


> There's no fake outrage on my part. It truly pisses me off.


Then you are genuinely ignorant of the way "ignorant" is almost universally used....which is to say, as an insult.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then you are genuinely ignorant of the way "ignorant" is almost universally used....which is to say, as an insult.


In my lifetime that is a recent event. In my formative years it was never used as an insult. I reject the colloquialism. It's a misuse of the word. No better than using "axe" to mean "ask".

Next you'll be telling me that I shouldn't be bothered by apostrophe misuse, or the mistaken use of "your" and "you're". Simply allowing people to think that their misuse of a word is correct continues the mistake.

But I'm open to education here, Rob. What word would you suggest I use to mean "You have no knowledge on this topic" or perhaps "your understanding is incomplete"?

Were I to try to debate you on the finer points of Medieval History, what word would you use to describe my total lack of knowledge on the topic?

It's not like I'm saying "You are so ignorant!". I use it in a precise context. "Your ignorance of advanced physics causes you to come to an incorrect conclusion".


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Here we go. Guys, please take it to PMs.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

To get this back on topic, would trusting Littlefinger be ignorant, or just stupid?

 *ducks and runs*


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

allan said:


> To get this back on topic, would trusting Littlefinger be ignorant, or just stupid?
> 
> *ducks and runs*


He did actually warn Ned Stark not to trust anybody, so that would eliminate ignorance, at least in that one case.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

allan said:


> To get this back on topic, would trusting Littlefinger be ignorant, or just stupid?





Ereth said:


> He did actually warn Ned Stark not to trust anybody, so that would eliminate ignorance, at least in that one case.


Was definitely stupid of our beheaded hero. Everyone else that he hasn't warned, I suppose they would be ignorant.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

To bring this back to one of the original lines of questioning in this thread: (and no I haven't read the books, nor do I plan to until wither the HBO series or books are finished)

Another reason for the assassin to have the dagger -- it was given to him as all or partial payment for doing the job. My understanding was that it was of high quality and made by a famous knife maker (Littlefinger "recognized the maker's mark") -- it also may have been better than any other knife the assassin had at his disposal (since he was away from home, assuming he was part of the King's travelling party).


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

It was made of Valyrian steel, which is the highest quality steel in the world of Westeros. It's forged in a manner that gave it unequaled strength and sharpness, but the art of creating it was lost with Valyria.

The steel can be reforged into new weapons but not created any longer. Therefore mostly lords and rich persons have Valyrian steel weapons.

Other Valyrian steel weapons we've seen:

Ice, Lord Eddard's greatsword that is now owned by Sir Ilyne Payne, the King's headsman.

Longclaw, Jon Snow's bastard sword given to him by Lord Mormont (which was originally intended for Jorah Mormont).


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

audioscience said:


> Longclaw, Jon Snow's bastard sword given to him by Lord Mormont (which was originally intended for Jorah Mormont).


I can't help chuckling at the terminology.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> I can't help chuckling at the terminology.


"Jorah may have been a traitor, but he just wasn't enough of a bastard for this sword. Here, Jon."


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

audioscience said:


> ...Ice, Lord Eddard's greatsword that is now owned by Sir Ilyne Payne, the King's headsman.


Robb Stark should have insisted he also gets Ned's greatsword back to Winterfell lest Ser feel some real Pain.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

you mean Payne.


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