# Tivo has just Screwed EVERY S3 owner!



## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

Coming out with the Premier GUI while at the same time enhancing NOTHING for current S3 owners is a major slap in the face to each and every S3 owner. S2 owners are treated better than us!

Lack of GUI updates for S3 models is really poor customer service IMO. This announcement is really saying that the Tivo company is no longer going to support GUI upgrades or significant enhancements to its S3 platforms. It might as well be "phasing them out" as it says it is doing with the S2s.

That's pretty much BS IMO. Both my Tivo HDs were purchased within the last 18 months. Tivo obviously stopped (behind the scenes) supporting enhancements to the GUI well before I made my purchases as they have instead focused on the new product. Had I known that the Tivo company had chosen to *abandon* the platform GUI well before I made my purchase I would have waited.

This move actually makes the S3s, even with lifetime, much less valuable in the resale market (ebay) than they would have been otherwise. In the past scenario, people knew the S2s being sold with lifetime were outdated, but if they just wanted a machine to scoop up analog the lifetime S2s still had significant value. That is still the case.

However, because the S4 will have future support and development, and the S3 will have limited to no support and no future enhancements, Tivo has devalued the S3. Why would you purchase a used S3 except at a significant discount?

The S3s I have work as specified. I have received the product described and that I paid for.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that if Tivo had spent the last few years working on an enhanced GUI for the S3 we would have a much better, faster, sleeker GUI today! Instead they suckered every S3 owner who purchased the platform over the last few years to buy a product they knew they were abandoning as they sold it out the door (for you old timers, if you have knowledge of the old Apple computer product line, think Apple IIGS, the ultimate upgrade to the IIc and IIe, that was abandoned by apple as it moved exclusively to the Mac. The IIgs became useless within years, it's owners stuck with a recently purchased dinosaur).

I don't find the enhancements of the new platform worth the cost of the upgrade. But technology marches on, and in a few more years when MS, Google, etc have some new gadget that will compete with the functionality of this new S4 Tivo, you can bet I will remember that Tivo chose to abandon enhancements and upgrades to a platform is was pushing out the door as it's top of the line models months before it released the S4. If Tivo knew the S3s were being phased out, they should have stated as much and sold them for a discount, not waited until they sold every last one of the old models at full price with the hidden knowledge that they were selling a product to the customer that was outdated and would not be enhanced/upgraded/significantly updated in the future.

Tivo has made a public choice to abandon each and every S3 owner. We are told to upgrade, in many many cases brand new units, or live with the sluggish outdated GUIs that Tivo chose to abandon years ago while they continued to sell them to us. That is a slap in the face to me, a loyal 7+ year customer.

I will not forget that the Tivo company chose to abandon technology it sold to me as top of the line. I will not forget that Tivo lied by omission to me and every other S3 customer, especially the ones they sold to as they pushed the soon to be unsupported (except for limited service updates) platform out the door at full price to rid themselves of inventory.

I won't forget in a few years when I will be choosing between the Tivo product and a competing product fro a company with much deeper pockets.

Tivo should not have abandoned it's loyal user base. It's been shedding customers for years, and just screwed people that have been their biggest supporters.

Not a good move Tivo.


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## csm10495 (Nov 15, 2008)

Agreed


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Rick,

I see where you are coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. I own four Series 3 boxes, and I don't feel like TiVo has screwed me over at all. It's unreasonable to expect a company to not only support, but to continue to develop and advance every product they have ever made.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

YEAH!

imagine not keeping these devices updated forever?!!?!

They should kill the premiere and instead focus on getting us 3d holographic video on the S3!!!

oh wait- they said they were adding features to the S3 like the new streaming radio the premiere will have....

How dare they only update the S3 with the features it can handle!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

gweempose said:


> I see where you are coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. I own four Series 3 boxes, and I don't feel like TiVo has screwed me over at all. It's unreasonable to expect a company to not only support, but to continue to develop and advance every product they have ever made.


Agreed, my Series 3 and TivoHD will both continue to do what they were intended to with no problem whatsoever even after the release of the Premier, if I want the new gadgets and features I can feel free to buy a new unit, but the old unit will still be one of the best DVRs out there.

Diane


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## exegesis48 (Jan 14, 2007)

Here here.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

I'm very pleased with both of my S3's and don't miss what I don't have. And feeling "screwed" over a user interface? Please.


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## bigpatky (Apr 23, 2008)

i'm just disappointed that we beta tested the "new" tivo search that became the template for the new UI and we don't get to use the final product. 

that and the difference btw series 3 and series 4 isn't worth a $300-500 upgrade fee. if it had more tuners, a way to sling or stream to a box in another room, satellite computability or any number of other features i would drop my still fine tivohd and pay for a new box. instead, i'll just use this until it dies or some other company comes out with a better alternative. i just don't see any reason to upgrade.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

I see both sides. If a revolutionary car comes on the market, why would the manufacturer leak advance information to the public - even to owners of the same manufacturer's previous line of vehicles? TiVo didn't owe anyone a pre-production announcement. In addition, TiVo needed to sell off the existing product line through retail establishments and online. Why would anyone - given a choice between antiquated technology and something new on the horizon - buy the former as opposed to the latter - unless it was sold dirt cheap - below any level of profitability? 

People complain that TiVo won't allow one with a lifetime plan to port it to new technology hardware. Why should we be able to do that? As long as there is the strong probability of selling or giving older equipment to another, which means more subscribers (and more profit from the new hardware being sold with new activation fees), isn't that what keeps TiVo afloat? It certainly isn't the selling of hardware alone.

Apple customers know that improvements and cheaper prices are always 'round the corner. Yet diehard customers are going to be buying their stuff just as it hits the marketplace. They are known as "early adopters". I am an early adopter of TiVo, dating back to 1999. I paid $800 for my series 1 Philips model (the only one available originally). I'm proud to be a TiVo user today, having gone through Series 2 units and now into Series 3 units (the HD models).

If I just purchased my first HD unit and TiVo announced the 4th generation models as coming out within the next 3-4 months, who should I be miffed at? Myself for not waiting a bit longer. Then, life's a gamble. An announcement might be forthcoming soon - later - or not at all. I choose to enjoy what I seek to buy and be content with what I presently own. Sure, I can dream and hope that some day I will be in the position to change over to something newer, and something better. If I'm lucky, I can sell off what I don't plan to use at that time. If not, I'm not a bit worried. If it still works I can always keep it as a backup to what replaces it down the line. We should all live within our means and enjoy the blessings with what we have and not be so nitpicking and critical of companies, let alone people. 

I don't see TiVo as abandoning anyone. It is still trying to reinvent the wheel. It has done an incredible job thus far. I simply hope TiVo continues to stay on a roll for generations to come.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

bigpatky said:


> I just don't see any reason to upgrade ...


I think a lot of people are with you on that one.


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## TheDingy (Apr 11, 2007)

My original HD got buggy and I swapped the HD out for a series 3 that was on a sling box. 

I was just going over to best buy to order another one for the sling box. I am thrilled that Tivo is releasing this new box. The new box looks nice and should have a bunch more features than the S3. The S3 hardware is old and you should replace it after a while! Tivo shouldn't be required to update the hardware for ever! There is a point where you are running out of processing power for that hardware and I think that the time is here on that system.

GO TIVO!!! Send me my Premier!


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## GimmeMP3 (Nov 9, 2002)

The Series 3 processor is too slow to run the new interface. That's just a fact. Not sure what you expect them to do about it.


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## billyjoebob99 (Jan 13, 2007)

rick123 said:


> This announcement is really saying that the Tivo company is no longer going to support GUI upgrades or significant enhancements to its S3 platforms.


Did I miss something. Has anything at all been said about future updates to the S3. When the S3 was annouced did the world end for the owners of the S2.


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## obsidian (Mar 24, 2008)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The Series 3 processor is too slow to run the new interface. That's just a fact. Not sure what you expect them to do about it.


Exactly. I thought this would have been pretty evident from the beta testing.


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## bigpatky (Apr 23, 2008)

obsidian said:


> Exactly. I thought this would have been pretty evident from the beta testing.


i thought most assumed it was slow because it wasn't installed on the box itself, it was just a web app. that was mentioned numerous times on here. obviously knowing it's built on flash it's pretty obvious that the s3/hd won't get it.


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## nigebj (Sep 8, 2004)

rick123 said:


> Coming out with the Premier GUI while at the same time enhancing NOTHING for current S3 owners is a major slap in the face to each and every S3 owner.


Come on Rick. You buy a cellphone, it's out of date before you pay your first monthly bill. You buy a car, it was manufactured 1-2 years ago (if from a US manufacturer) on 4-5 year old designs. You buy a current piece of consumer electronics - it is out of date in 3 months.

Tivo have and do upgrade interfaces - sometimes for 5-8 year old product (S2's for example). The fact that they have improved the hardware, to give them more UI choices is a good things - they'll attract more customers, and keep market-share in an ever more competitive space.

Tivo have set unrealistic expectations with customers - who expect their 'lifetime' purchases to last their lifetime, not the lifetime of the device!

The upgrade program looks very fair to me - if you want to go 'bleeding edge' with Tivo. $500 for a device with lifetime is $100 more than list for Lifetime service. Of course if you have a perfectly working S3 - you may not want to spend $500 on a (notionally) better interface.

As it is, I was considering dropping $300 (discounted rate) on lifetime for an Tivo HD I have, but have never activate. So - for $200 bucks more, my 'new' machine could be the Premiere - not the S3. I might recover quite a bit of that $200 with the sale of the now definitely less valuable Tivo HD. Who knows.

Tivo - you need to innovate, you need to keep market-share and stay relevant - it's great that you have an HD interface to go with your HD devices. And thanks for my totally reliable Tivo HD - I love it. And do please keep passing on the UI enhancements which ARE VIABLE for the hardware I have - NONE of my other family room video entertainment devices have changed since I bought them - so thanks for the many improvements I have enjoyed with the S3, and S2's before them!


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> If I just purchased my first HD unit and TiVo announced the 4th generation models as coming out within the next 3-4 months, who should I be miffed at?


I purchased my second S3 just over a month before the THD was announced. As it turns out, the THD didn't really bring anything new to the table, but even if it did, that's the way the cookie crumbles. When you are dealing with technology, there is always something new around the corner. You can sit on the sidelines and wait, but eventually you have to dive in, or you'll never buy anything. Would I want TiVo to continue to develop the Series 3 platform? Of course, but I can certainly understand if they choose not to. If the Series 3s were still buggy, it would be a different story, but the fact of the matter is that they are pretty rock solid at this point.


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

We bought a brand new one 3 weeks ago!

Thank goodness it sits unopened and we don't even have a Tivo account yet - we were waiting until we move apt next week!

IMO Best Buy should not have even have them on sale at full price... sure sell them but have them discounted and say "This is why..." Anyway we will be taking our one back to best buy tonight - I'll let you know what happens. Not impressed. I didn't think the new one would have been such a big difference. Pfft.


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## Capmeister (Jan 20, 2005)

ADG said:


> I'm very pleased with both of my S3's and don't miss what I don't have. And feeling "screwed" over a user interface? Please.


I don't feel screwed. My TiVo HD and HDXL are working. If a new GUI would slow them down, count me out. What I WOULD like is them to give an SD version of their new interface so I can have video in menus. Other than that, I don't care.


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

I understand you being upset but Tivo IS still supporting your current software. When they went from Series 1-2 and 2-3 We did not expect the old units to support all the new features.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

New products come out all the time with new features. Can my old XP machine run Vista or 7- of course not.

This may be the most ridiculous initial thread on the matter of the Premier that I have seen so far. But it is early in the day...


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## melissa12345 (Sep 9, 2007)

Lorelei said:


> We bought a brand new one 3 weeks ago!
> 
> Thank goodness it sits unopened and we don't even have a Tivo account yet - we were waiting until we move apt next week!
> 
> IMO Best Buy should not have even have them on sale at full price... sure sell them but have them discounted and say "This is why..." Anyway we will be taking our one back to best buy tonight - I'll let you know what happens. Not impressed. I didn't think the new one would have been such a big difference. Pfft.


i found out that Best Buys has a restocking FEE now on all returns!!!!


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## KennyP (Jul 11, 2006)

I agree. Tivo is really abandoning its S3 customers. I've been waiting for a revamped interface -- that isn't designed to be displayed on a 27" TV - for months. 

Tivo should be continuing to support and upgrade the S3. If not, WHY DO I PAY THEM A MONTHLY FEE???


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## tetzel1517 (Dec 29, 2003)

Lorelei said:


> We bought a brand new one 3 weeks ago!
> 
> Thank goodness it sits unopened and we don't even have a Tivo account yet - we were waiting until we move apt next week!
> 
> IMO Best Buy should not have even have them on sale at full price... sure sell them but have them discounted and say "This is why..." Anyway we will be taking our one back to best buy tonight - I'll let you know what happens. Not impressed. I didn't think the new one would have been such a big difference. Pfft.


Not that it should be expected of everyone, but this is why I always check tech blogs and rumor sites before I buy anything big. I think the March 2 event had been announced by then. If I were buying a TiVo but knew about that, I would have held off until today!

I'm not at all upset the software isn't coming to the S3 (well, I'd prefer that it were, but that's how it is with tech -- especially tech I've owned for nearly three years).

We're moving and are about to become RCN subscribers, so I'm hoping that there'll be some way to "migrate" over to one of the RCN-branded Premiere boxes coming out soon. If not, I'll just wait until the agreement on our S3 ends in June and then switch from paying TiVo to paying RCN.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

rick123 said:


> This move actually makes the S3s, even with lifetime, much less valuable in the resale market (ebay) than they would have been otherwise.


This must be a new concept. I thought that consumer electronics were generally a rapidly depreciating asset.

Anyway mine is up for sale. In about a week I'll see how high it goes. Right now it's a bit over $400 with barely 1 day in.

I'm going to ebay the S2 next. Probably take out the 300GB hard drive and put in an 80GB drive first though.


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

melissa12345 said:


> i found out that Best Buys has a restocking FEE now on all returns!!!!


No way??! SHEESH!


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Lorelei said:


> IMO Best Buy should not have even have them on sale at full price... sure sell them but have them discounted and say "This is why..." Anyway we will be taking our one back to best buy tonight - I'll let you know what happens. Not impressed. I didn't think the new one would have been such a big difference. Pfft.


Why would they discount them if they could still get people to buy them at full price? They would only do that if they had a leftover inventory of S3's AFTER the S4 came out that they could not move. As it was, what Tivo did is what any smart company would do.

I don't think you really understand what the differences between the two units are. The main difference is the new look, functionally they are pretty much the same. Really not a big difference.


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

tetzel1517 said:


> Not that it should be expected of everyone, but this is why I always check tech blogs and rumor sites before I buy anything big. I think the March 2 event had been announced by then. If I were buying a TiVo but knew about that, I would have held off until today!
> 
> I'm not at all upset the software isn't coming to the S3 (well, I'd prefer that it were, but that's how it is with tech -- especially tech I've owned for nearly three years).
> 
> We're moving and are about to become RCN subscribers, so I'm hoping that there'll be some way to "migrate" over to one of the RCN-branded Premiere boxes coming out soon. If not, I'll just wait until the agreement on our S3 ends in June and then switch from paying TiVo to paying RCN.


I agree and I normally do exactly that- we were so fed up with our awful TWC DVR that we bit the bullet the night we were in Best buy just to 'check them out'. I honestly thought that if they were going to be new ones they would be closer to the $500 which was too expensive for us anyway.


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Why would they discount them if they could still get people to buy them at full price? They would only do that if they had a leftover inventory of S3's AFTER the S4 came out that they could not move. As it was, what Tivo did is what any smart company would do.
> 
> I don't think you really understand what the differences between the two units are. The main difference is the new look, functionally they are pretty much the same. Really not a big difference.


And 25 hours more recording time...?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The Series 3 processor is too slow to run the new interface. That's just a fact. Not sure what you expect them to do about it.


Well... maybe write it in something less of a complete resource pig then flash! An HD interface for the series 3 could have easily been created to run under that hardware's resources, and it could've been done in a standardized platform.

What we have now with the new box is an HD interface created with a proprietary third-party high-level authoring tool that has seen better days. I'm guessing this decision was made for two reasons:

Significantly less development time screw the S3 users.

The ability to more easily place flash animated ads into the interface screw all users.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

Screwed may be the wrong word. But no one can really argue that the HDs are a little slow and the interface is really dated looking. They couldn't have at least announced and HD refresh for the GUI on the Series 3? It doesn't have to do what the Series 4 does, but really they couldn't through us a bone?

And the other problem is the feature set that the premeire gives is very MEH. Why not have some streaming option (like the Moxi) where you can watch shows on computers even if the CCI flag doesn't allow you to transfer them? That would have been a feature worth upgrading too.

But given what the series 4 has, and basically the death of the HD Tivo (I mean come on, they have completely abandoned the underlying code, so only updates I expect would involve bug fixes), it means that for those of us looking for a new DVR solution, TIVO is no longer the undeniable BEST choice, which makes me a little sad.


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## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

Lorelei said:


> No way??! SHEESH!


That must be new. I returned an unopened camcorder in january with no fee.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

KennyP said:


> I agree. Tivo is really abandoning its S3 customers. I've been waiting for a revamped interface -- that isn't designed to be displayed on a 27" TV - for months.
> 
> Tivo should be continuing to support and upgrade the S3. If not, WHY DO I PAY THEM A MONTHLY FEE???


Read the articles, they are continuing support. The S3's will receive some of the same upgrades at the S4, just not the UI because the S3 hardware isn't powerful enough to handle it.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

asarathy said:


> they have completely abandoned the underlying code


I doubt that very much. They have simply slapped a flash authored interface on top of it. It was a completely new code base we'd see new features that we aren't seeing.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Everyone should be looking at the "no new GUI" as a possible good thing. They can't bombard us with ads as easy with our old, sluggish and outdated GUI like it's possible with the new one.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Lorelei said:


> And 25 hours more recording time...?


You could easily fix that by upgrading the drive yourself. You could actually get a 1TB drive which is in the XL model and have 150 hours for pretty cheap. How much did you pay for your Tivo HD if you don't mind my asking?


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

solutionsetc said:


> I doubt that very much. They have simply slapped a flash authored interface on top of it. It was a completely new code base we'd see new features that we aren't seeing.


Yeah, completely may have been the wrong word. But the have gone a different way, and I doubt they will spend a lot of time and resources on updating things on the Series 3. Unless of course they can find more ways to put ads on it.


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## jtrain (Jan 17, 2006)

As an S3 and THD owner i was hoping for an HD refresh of the UI, in addition to the announcement of the premiere box. i'm disappointed, but not devastated by any means...my boxes have functioned tremendously for as long as i've had them (original S3 w/ 500GB e-sata/antec additional storage since June '07 with FiOS/cablecards and now OTA HD only). 

As long as both boxes continue to function as I need them to, i'll be happy as a clam. the premiere boxes look great and 'wanting' the new shiny model definitely runs thru my mind, but it's definitely not a need, esp. for basically the HD UI. 

I've been very happy with my TiVo experience, and TiVo hasn't given me any reason to leave to this point...esp. from a functionality/ease of use standpoint in that my 9 yr old uses it effectively to set season passes, toggle between tuners, etc.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

jtrain said:


> As an S3 and THD owner i was hoping for an HD refresh of the UI, in addition to the announcement of the premiere box. i'm disappointed, but not devastated by any means...my boxes have functioned tremendously for as long as i've had them (original S3 w/ 500GB e-sata/antec additional storage since June '07 with FiOS/cablecards and now OTA HD only).
> 
> As long as both boxes continue to function as I need them to, i'll be happy as a clam. the premiere boxes look great and 'wanting' the new shiny model definitely runs thru my mind, but it's definitely not a need, esp. for basically the HD UI.
> 
> I've been very happy with my TiVo experience, and TiVo hasn't given me any reason to leave to this point...esp. from a functionality/ease of use standpoint in that my 9 yr old uses it effectively to set season passes, toggle between tuners, etc.


I fully agree with this. Tivo 'owes' me nothing. The boxes work as designed. There was an update a year or so (I think) back which increased the GUI speed by some noticeable percentage. That was nice. Amazon, Netflix, and Blockbuster VOD services were added. That's nice. Both of these represent an improvement upon some I'd already had. My S3 functions and continues to function, and I'm happy.

Of course, I also do not 'owe' Tivo my automatically purchasing a Tivo Premiere without a significant feature upgrade (in my eyes) from my S3.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

If TiVo stops developing new functionality for the S3, they need to drop the monthly subscription fees. Keep them higher for the S4 owners but reduce them for the EOL'd boxes. All we need is subscription data and that should not cost $12.95 per month.


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## convergent (Jan 4, 2007)

Rick, I think you completely wrong. You are obviously quite upset about this, and I think you have no reason to be. Unless you are living under a rock, it can't be news to you that with technology products, there is eventually something new that comes out. You said you've had them for 18 months. I can understand being annoyed if you bought it a month ago, but a year and a half??? No one said they aren't going to continue updating the Series 3s. They've added all kinds of stuff to it since you bought it... Netflix, Blockbuster, and the whole search capability that's in the new box. You aren't going to get the totally new user interface, but my guess is it would be painfully slow on the older processor... which is about 3 years old technology. I'm sure if new capabilities (similar to Netflix) that are compatible with the Series 3 are possible to add, they will add them. By your logic, the Series 2 owners should have been up in arms that they didn't get Netflix.

You mentioned the value of your existing Series 3 Tivos has dropped. Again, please tell me this wasn't a surprise to you... next generation box comes out and the hold ones drop in value. I bought a brand new MacBook Pro about a month after the unibody models came out for about $1400, and it was close to $3000 the month prior. Its life in the technology world.

The flip side of your argument is that there is so little new in this announcement that I'm not sure its even worth upgrading. I returned a Tivo XL at Christmas time because they couldn't produce one that didn't have the reboot error, and now I'm sitting here having lived without it for a few months wondering if I really need it.

You want something to complain about, try dealing with Time Warner Cable which blocks me from pretty much ALL MRV and randomly drops out dozens of channels when the Tuning Adapter is acting up (which is all of the time now). I was hoping Tivo would produce a box that could stream so I could do MRV, but I guess I'll wait until 2013 for the Series 5 to see that.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

ewilts said:


> If TiVo stops developing new functionality for the S3, they need to drop the monthly subscription fees. Keep them higher for the S4 owners but reduce them for the EOL'd boxes. All we need is subscription data and that should not cost $12.95 per month.


Never happen. Read the TOS.



> 3. The TiVo Service. The TiVo service consists of program guide information and the following features: (a) Season Pass® recording automatically finds and records every episode of a series all season long; (b) WishList® search - finds and records programs that feature your favorite actor, director, team or even topic; (c) Smart Recording - automatically detects program line-up changes for your cable/satellite provider and adjusts recording times so you don't have to worry about the details; (d) TiVo Suggestions  TiVo can be programmed to suggest and auto-record programs that may match your interests; and (e) Parental Controls  lock channels or set ratings limits based on content. Each of these features is part of the "TiVo service." The "TiVo service" means these features and any additional features and functionality of the TiVo DVR that TiVo may, at its discretion and from time to time, offer.


That is what you are paying for. Essentially a monthly rental fee of their software.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Never happen. Read the TOS.
> 
> - snip -
> 
> That is what you are paying for. Essentially a monthly rental fee of their software.


I know it will never happen. Just because I want it and I think it's the right thing to do doesn't mean anything.

I also bought Lifetime (on the original Series 1, transferred to a Series 2, and then uplifted to my Series 3).


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

asarathy said:


> I doubt they will spend a lot of time and resources on updating things on the Series 3.


Agreed but to be frank, that has been the case since I have been a TiVo owner.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

I'm fairly new to the S3, but can someone tell me why it's so important to some people that the UI be in HD?

Call me crazy, but I use my tivo to watch _programming_, not menus. As long as the programming is in HD, who cares if the Now Playing List isn't?

Put another way - if you're showing off your fabulous HD display to someone, are you really going to use a tivo menu to do it?


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

WhiskeyTango said:


> You could easily fix that by upgrading the drive yourself. You could actually get a 1TB drive which is in the XL model and have 150 hours for pretty cheap. How much did you pay for your Tivo HD if you don't mind my asking?


We paid $250


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## doopstr (Nov 13, 2004)

I suspect that much of the free space gained by an HD gui will be taken up by ads. 

At this point, there is nothing in the S4 that makes me want to toss my HD out the window.


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## NJ_HB (Mar 21, 2007)

There are pros and cons to the OPs argument. However TiVo already has an marketable audience for its new S4 with us prior owners/subscribers. Somebody somewhere should realize that we are an easier sell, we already took the plunge. Make us a deal we cant refuse and move a lot of units right away. 
The other method is to spend money advertising and trying to convert other DVR owners to give up their Cable Co DVRs for TiVo. Other DVR owners never have to worry about technology(S1,S2,S3,S4), they simply trade their rented box whenever they want to get caught up with no extra cash outlay in their eyes.


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

Lorelei said:


> We paid $250


Just speaking to my BF - we are going to go to best buy and ask for a price adjustment. if we can keep this one for $180 I think it is worth it don't you think?

Thanks to you all for all of your advice!


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

My series 3 always performed flawlessly... My face doesn't feel slapped.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

scooterboy said:


> I'm fairly new to the S3, but can someone tell me why it's so important to some people that the UI be in HD?


Simply to get rid of the 6 inch tall letters that can not even show the complete title of a short-named movie in list such as the wishlist search, thus requiring endless stepping back and forth from lists to detail screens.

For me it is just a usability issue. There was no requirement for a lot of processor eating eye-candy, just let me see more detailed information about the shows I am browsing in a list.

And form the looks of the screen shots I have seen so far, the new UI is heavily weighted on eye-candy part of this (I am sure the "suits" loved that aspect of it).


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## theoryzero (Jan 7, 2010)

melissa12345 said:


> i found out that Best Buys has a restocking FEE now on all returns!!!!


Maybe you have it confused. I just returned a camera two days ago and was charged no restocking fee. I even asked when I originally purchased it two weeks ago, if they had a restocking fee. She said, "No we don't do that anymore."


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

solutionsetc said:


> Simply to get rid of the 6 inch tall letters that can not even show the complete title of a short-named movie in list such as the wishlist search, thus requiring endless stepping back and forth from lists to detail screens.
> 
> For me it is just a usability issue. There was no requirement for a lot of processor eating eye-candy, just let me see more detailed information about the shows I am browsing in a list.
> 
> And form the looks of the screen shots I have seen so far, the new UI is heavily weighted on eye-candy part of this (I am sure the "suits" loved that aspect of it).


Ding Ding Ding.... there it is.


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## profxyz (Aug 3, 2008)

Every time I think about how much advertising and et all
Tivo isn't dumping out on me because of the old GUI, and
how much the new boxes owners will howl about the ads,

I wonder about just how long will my Tivo S3 will last.

"The new box will be fully compatabile with every ad on the
internet."

:up:

Prof.


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## JeffKusnitz (Apr 9, 2008)

scooterboy said:


> I'm fairly new to the S3, but can someone tell me why it's so important to some people that the UI be in HD?
> 
> Call me crazy, but I use my tivo to watch _programming_, not menus. As long as the programming is in HD, who cares if the Now Playing List isn't?
> 
> Put another way - if you're showing off your fabulous HD display to someone, are you really going to use a tivo menu to do it?


I've wondered the same thing. The only reason I could think of was so that my TV wouldn't pause awkwardly when switching from whatever HD mode it is in while watching something to the mode that menus are displayed in - sometimes it's several seconds of black screen. But I get that sometimes when switching channels, so presumably I could just buy a new tv that switches faster


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

JeffKusnitz said:


> I've wondered the same thing. The only reason I could think of was so that my TV wouldn't pause awkwardly when switching from whatever HD mode it is in while watching something to the mode that menus are displayed in - sometimes it's several seconds of black screen. But I get that sometimes when switching channels, so presumably I could just buy a new tv that switches faster


Force the output resolution to either 720p or 1080i. Letting it automatically the resolution based on the input channel causes those pauses.

Unless, of course, you're using those pauses as justification to the significant other that you need a new TV


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Rick, I see where you are coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. I own four Series 3 boxes, and I don't feel like TiVo has screwed me over at all. It's unreasonable to expect a company to not only support, but to continue to develop and advance every product they have ever made.


Absolutely on-target. It is unreasonable to expect a UI made to work with the components of a new device to magically work for an old device with old components in it.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> Simply to get rid of the 6 inch tall letters that can not even show the complete title of a short-named movie in list such as the wishlist search, thus requiring endless stepping back and forth from lists to detail screens.


Fair point. I haven't been using my TivoHD long enough to have noticed that I guess. And I don't use Wishlists that frequently.


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## profxyz (Aug 3, 2008)

ewilts said:


> Force the output resolution to either 720p or 1080i. Letting it automatically the resolution based on the input channel causes those pauses.
> 
> Unless, of course, you're using those pauses as justification to the significant other that you need a new TV




I set my S3 to native, I let my new $1000.00 Onkyo upscale Comcast's
ratty signal to 1080p. The chips in the Onkyo must be at least a 1000%
better.

The pauses teach me patience. (grasshopper)

Prof.


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## drjlb (Feb 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> Absolutely on-target. It is unreasonable to expect a UI made to work with the components of a new device to magically work for an old device with old components in it.


So how is it that the beta Search works on S3 hardware? Maybe all of the flash based "upgrades" won't, but the contextual menus sure seem like they could.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

asarathy said:


> Screwed may be the wrong word. But no one can really argue that the HDs are a little slow and the interface is really dated looking. They couldn't have at least announced and HD refresh for the GUI on the Series 3?


Could you have "at least" planned to replace your Series 3 with a Premiere? 



asarathy said:


> It doesn't have to do what the Series 4 does, but really they couldn't through us a bone?


At the expense of what? They spent what the spent to produce what they've produced, so go through the list of advancements in the TiVo Premiere and list those that you would have them not have implemented, to make room in the budget from what you would have had them do instead.

Then, we'll talk about how you're going to prove that doing as you would have had them do instead actually better for them than what they actually did.

The point is that we're probably not in a good position to judge whether pleasing us pays off. We're always going to overestimate our own value, and underestimate the cost we incur (and the value others afford TiVo).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

drjlb said:


> So how is it that the beta Search works on S3 hardware?


I wouldn't say it "worked". If the whole UI worked that poorly, I'd sell my S3 and get a Moxi.


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> I wouldn't say it "worked". If the whole UI worked that poorly, I'd sell my S3 and get a Moxi.


That's what I use as a model for the new UI on the S3's. (for good or ill)

If the new UI works that slowly on that hardware platform I'd hate it and my wife would kill me.


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## turbobozz (Sep 21, 2006)

drjlb said:


> So how is it that the beta Search works on S3 hardware? Maybe all of the flash based "upgrades" won't, but the contextual menus sure seem like they could.


Beta Search doesn't run on the S3 hardware.
It is running on a remote server as a super HME app, which is why it extremely slow.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

bicker said:


> Could you have "at least" planned to replace your Series 3 with a Premiere?
> 
> At the expense of what? They spent what the spent to produce what they've produced, so go through the list of advancements in the TiVo Premiere and list those that you would have them not have implemented, to make room in the budget from what you would have had them do instead.
> 
> ...


Actually, I would have considered getting the Premiere if it weren't so meh....

But honestly that's the point. I am in no position to tell Tivo how to operate. But since I didn't pay for lifetime, they need my money too. So I am under no obligation to continue shelling out money for a product that isn't meeting the expectations (lofty as they may be) I have for it. And the fact is Tivo has a lot of competitors now who are doing a lot of neat things that Tivo is not.

Tivo Business Model relies on 3 things. People buying hardware, people paying for service, and people using the box so they can push ads and sell data. For those of us who don't have lifetime, not keeping us Happy hurts two of the three revenue streams. The box is a sunk cost.

Look, i don't think it's realistic for them to push a GUI that the hardware can't handle. But the current TIVO menu is just text. Could they really not turn that into an HD mode, where you can see more text, read more in the info, see the full title, etc? I mean, am I using a tech product that's interface looks exactly like it did 10 years ago. Designed for 27 Inch screens. It's like look at a website that was designed 640x480 monitors. It makes it look dated, and it's less functional because you can't get as much info (which is the important thing).

Yes we all love the Tivo interface, that's why we choose it, but that doesn't meant it can't be cleaned up in places....


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## drjlb (Feb 2, 2004)

turbobozz said:


> Beta Search doesn't run on the S3 hardware.
> It is running on a remote server as a super HME app, which is why it extremely slow.


Of course it does. I grant you that the slowness is due to the TiVo servers, but all of the HD graphics are on the S3 box. Maybe more of the search results are cached on the S4, but TiVo servers will still be involved. But, removing the TiVo server part of the equation, there is no hardware reason why the HD graphics involved in the beta Search can't be used on every S3 menu, maximizing real estate.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I'd like the new HD UI, but not at the expense of slower UI "feel". I'm frankly not that unhappy with the current situation. But I COULD be unhappy if Tivo stops fixing the existing software bugs in the Series 3 and Tivo HD. Of course, I suspect many bugs persist because all available resources went into the Series 4 R&D.

For me, I want the little things fixed, like

*when you delete something from a folder and it suddenly shows no items in the folder, until you leave the folder and return, or
*when the highlighted program changes when you go into its description and then back out.

I want other things improved, like the channel selection process. Why can't I SEE the channel in the background when deciding if I want to remove it or add it?

I want to see major flaws that only impact a few people fixed. Like the issue with the gray screen some people experience with Tivo HD whose current workaround is scheduling 1 minute manual recordings.

I'd love to see manual QAM mapping, but I know it's been a low priority previously and probably now a zero priority.

So let's wait to see just how abandoned we are by Tivo before we get so upset....

Oh, and while I'm at it, let me make a suggestion:
Tivo should offer a $5/month subscription for Series 1 and Series 2 boxes that offers NO SUPPORT nor SOFTWARE UPGRADES. Why do I say this when Tivo might lose new sales to people sticking with old boxes? Frankly, I think Tivo desperately needs MORE SUBSCRIPTIONS. People keep talking about Tivo dying or withering away. I know many people with old Tivo units sitting in closets now. If these units still work, Tivo could inflate its numbers for little cost, or so it seems to me. By doing this without any support or upgrades, what is Tivo out? What could they gain? Well, they might hook some new customers who WOULD consider upgrading once that box died. Just trying to think outside the (Tivo) box....


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## Lorelei (Mar 3, 2010)

It seems like Best Buy no longer have series 3 in stock.

Do you think the best thing (because it is unopened etc) is to take it back and get a refund or just keep it?

PFFT!


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

rick123 said:


> That's pretty much BS IMO. Both my Tivo HDs were purchased within the last 18 months. Tivo obviously stopped (behind the scenes) supporting enhancements to the GUI well before I made my purchases as they have instead focused on the new product. Had I known that the Tivo company had chosen to *abandon* the platform GUI well before I made my purchase I would have waited.


So, you purchased an S3 not for what features and GUI it actually had, but for features and GUI that you imagined it would one day have? How odd.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Lorelei said:


> It seems like Best Buy no longer have series 3 in stock.
> 
> Do you think the best thing (because it is unopened etc) is to take it back and get a refund or just keep it?
> 
> PFFT!


Get the refund and by a new TiVo or Moxi. TiVo HD has issues and appears to be a dead platform. I would return mine in an instant if that were an option.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

Keen said:


> So, you purchased an S3 not for what features and GUI it actually had, but for features and GUI that you imagined it would one day have? How odd.


Right, Because Tivo didn't sell and market the fact that they update the software with new features? But because something was good enough at the time of purchase doesn't mean it continues to be. And there is a difference asking for a feature that is not possible on the hardware and not getting improvements that could be done by software.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

solutionsetc said:


> Get the refund and by a new TiVo or Moxi. TiVo HD has issues and appears to be a dead platform. I would return mine in an instant if that were an option.


Really? they've stopped supporting its operation?
Just like the Series 1 units that are still out there chugging away just fine, or the Series 2 units that also work just fine. I count neither one of those as "dead platforms"


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Lorelei said:


> Just speaking to my BF - we are going to go to best buy and ask for a price adjustment. if we can keep this one for $180 I think it is worth it don't you think?
> 
> Thanks to you all for all of your advice!


If you can get the adjustment, I think you should consider keeping it. Like I mentioned before you can get a 1TB drive on ebay, preloaded with the Tivo software for $116. That would put your total price at $296, about the same price as the Premiere with 3 times as much storage space.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TiVo-1TB-Hard-D...ltDomain_0?hash=item4a9efda69b#ht_1066wt_1165


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

asarathy said:


> Actually, I would have considered getting the Premiere if it weren't so meh....





> Look, i don't think it's realistic for them to push a GUI that the hardware can't handle. But the current TIVO menu is just text. Could they really not turn that into an HD mode, where you can see more text, read more in the info, see the full title, etc?


This right here is my biggest complaint with the Premiere. The new product has orphaned my relatively recently acquired HD in order to introduce a new model that _doesn't really do many things better_ aside from look shiny. The core UI was, in my opinion, the one part of the system that needed the least improvement -- just a resolution upgrade. But naturally, new features are likely to be introduced only for the new UI, just as new features for the S2 didn't make it back to the S1.

Many people are countering criticism by saying that the S3 does just what it did yesterday, which is obviously true. But one of the reasons I have invested in the S3 platform is that my S2 does significantly _more_ than it did when I first purchased it. I expected that TiVo would put the same effort into the S3 platform, and I am disappointed that they have not.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Nobody said they were not going to add new features to the HD, just not the ones you want. 

As has been said a bunch of times here, just because you think it would be easy/cheap/appropriate/free to have the menus in HD does not make it so.

If you feel shorted- buy the new unit and sell your old one. There.

Time to ignore the rest of this thread.


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## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

^ I totally agree with jrtroo. It's like people don't understand that new hardware will come out with new shiny. If you want the new shiny, then you wait until it's released, don't whine that you bought before it was available.


asarathy said:


> Right, Because Tivo didn't sell and market the fact that they update the software with new features?


Unless they're saying you'll get specific new features, I don't see the problem.


> But because something was good enough at the time of purchase doesn't mean it continues to be.


Can you expand on this? Tivo isn't remotely crippling all existing S3s, so I don't get how it's no longer "good enough".


> And there is a difference asking for a feature that is not possible on the hardware and not getting improvements that could be done by software.


Got a link to show the improvements can be done in software?


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Keen said:


> So, you purchased an S3 not for what features and GUI it actually had, but for features and GUI that you imagined it would one day have? How odd.


Actually my complaints aren't about the GUI but about loss of functionality in an indirect way.

More and more the cable companies are setting the coptyrestrict flags.
We have 3 Tivos and I can't tell you how many times now versus never a few years ago that I have been prevented from watching a show in the other room.

I was hoping for streaming features that would circumvent this new restriction and restore the perceived functionality I had when I first got my S3.

When you look at the competition it really seems to be catching up but not leaping ahead.

Granted there may be a lot more software potential on the new platform.

3 Tivos gives us 6 tuners across 4 TVs. Having to run around the house setting recordings when there is a conflict is not new but it is becoming an increasing problem. Especially during periods like the olympics. A server/streaming solution is more economical in my opinion.

BTW,
Does anybody know if the MOXis can stream to each other or can a single moximate see multiple servers?


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

Keen said:


> ^ I totally agree with jrtroo. It's like people don't understand that new hardware will come out with new shiny. If you want the new shiny, then you wait until it's released, don't whine that you bought before it was available.
> Unless they're saying you'll get specific new features, I don't see the problem.
> Can you expand on this? Tivo isn't remotely crippling all existing S3s, so I don't get how it's no longer "good enough".
> 
> Got a link to show the improvements can be done in software?


Well since the Tivo is capable of outputting at 1080i, it's a matter of giving it a scalable font that is designed for 1080i and a base resolution for the screen. That is doable in software.

As for being good enough, when you see other products coming out that have better features that are not enabled solely due to hardware, looking at what you have in comparison is no longer good enough. IE, the Droid and Nexus one came out sans multitouch, but with hardware capable of it. The htc Hero came out with multitouch. Not having multitouch was no longer good enough especially since they could implement it. That's how i feel about an Non native HD GUI.

And I spend my 13 bucks a month to pay for them implement new and improved features. Not just give me freely available guide data. And if they don't give me the features I want, they'll loss my business, which all I have ever said. Tivo owes me nothing, and I owe them nothing as well. But you turnoff your fans at your own peril.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

Pretty silly comment by the OP. I bought a Series 3. I does what was promised. I got what I paid for. Why should I feel screwed??? I don't.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

JohnBrowning said:


> Pretty silly comment by the OP. I bought a Series 3. I does what was promised. I got what I paid for. Why should I feel screwed??? I don't.


Well said. I bought a S3 on day 1, and it's terrific. Bought a 2nd one a couple years later, too.

I don't get the "I want hardware that doesn't get obsolete or I'm screwed" rants.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

asarathy said:


> Actually, I would have considered getting the Premiere if it weren't so meh....


Except it is better than the S3/HD, and you bought that, so it couldn't be too "meh". Of course it is your personal, individual decision whether the added cost is worth it, but that was my point.



asarathy said:


> But honestly that's the point. I am in no position to tell Tivo how to operate. But since I didn't pay for lifetime, they need my money too. So I am under no obligation to continue shelling out money for a product that isn't meeting the expectations (lofty as they may be) I have for it.


Yes, but most of us probably will, because the existing product is pretty good and the new product costs more money. They know this, and factor it into their strategy.



asarathy said:


> And the fact is Tivo has a lot of competitors now who are doing a lot of neat things that Tivo is not.


Poppycock. TiVo's got one real competitor, for what most TiVo owners bought their TiVo for, and in most ways, related to that core function, TiVo is still better.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Agreed, my Series 3 and TivoHD will both continue to do what they were intended to with no problem whatsoever even after the release of the Premier, if I want the new gadgets and features I can feel free to buy a new unit, but the old unit will still be one of the best DVRs out there.


Nice to see reasonable people here.

Of course we weren't screwed only because there's a new model coming out. The entire premise is ridiculous.


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## djjuice (Mar 29, 2008)

The series 3 (not tivoHD) is IMO the best tivo available. the OLED screen is reason enough as I know whats being recorded, as for 1080p? big deal, NOTHING on cable is in 1080p, its either 720p or 1080i. I don't even think netflix is streamed in 1080p in the HD level. so the only thing we lose is a new UI, not a big deal if you think about it. if you must have things in 1080p you can get an A/V Tuner


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## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

My issue (beyond being sold my 2nd HD tivo 3 months ago for full price when Tivo should have told me that a new improved model was right around the corner) is that to this date Tivo still has not perfected the GUI of the HD tivo and they appear to be ok with just moving on and leaving it behind. 

Make the HD tivo everything it can be (not just make it function acceptably) and I will be happy with my purchase.

Abandoning the HD units to focus solely on their new "precious" is not something I will interpret as proper customer care.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

rick123 said:


> My issue (beyond being sold my 2nd HD tivo 3 months ago for full price when Tivo should have told me that a new improved model was right around the corner) is that to this date Tivo still has not perfected the GUI of the HD tivo and they appear to be ok with just moving on and leaving it behind.
> 
> Make the HD tivo everything it can be (not just make it function acceptably) and I will be happy with my purchase.
> 
> Abandoning the HD units to focus solely on their new "precious" is not something I will interpret as proper customer care.


How many times does it have to be said that Tivo is NOT ABANDONING THE S3. They'll still work just like they do right now. There will be updates, although admittedly most of the attention will be on the S4 now. Jeez. People are acting like they were just sold a Beta Max player.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

bicker said:


> Except it is better than the S3/HD, and you bought that, so it couldn't be too "meh".


Really? Just because something is better than something that was the best offering 3 or 4 years ago it can't be, Meh?



bicker said:


> Poppycock. TiVo's got one real competitor, for what most TiVo owners bought their TiVo for, and in most ways, related to that core function, TiVo is still better.


Better is subjective. But again there a host of HTPCs, Moxi, all the carriers offering which are making strides and adding features. Tivo is competing with them all.

Again, I don't feel betrayed or screwed or shocked. I just think they have made a mistake in this. Their new offering isn't really compelling. I guess my case is a little different I was getting annoyed with my Tivo for a while, and was looking for some new options, and I thought Tivo might keep me with what was offered (I also thought, that like the series 3 and series 2 some of the features would be included/pushed down). I am just amazed that people are acting like there is nothing to see here, and that complaints are just *****ing and invalid. Tivo is a company that spread via the evangelism of its adopters... that should matter a little.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

billyjoebob99 said:


> Did I miss something. Has anything at all been said about future updates to the S3. When the S3 was annouced did the world end for the owners of the S2.


You would have thought so from the posts on this forum.
Similar to what's going on now. 


chrishicks said:


> Everyone should be looking at the "no new GUI" as a possible good thing. They can't bombard us with ads as easy with our old, sluggish and outdated GUI like it's possible with the new one.


+1 I can just see it now. Six months in the future, the Premier forum will be bombarded with "OMG, look at all the ads!!1!!11!" 
Think about it. There may be a reason there are no pictures of the guide in action. 


Lorelei said:


> Just speaking to my BF - we are going to go to best buy and ask for a price adjustment. if we can keep this one for $180 I think it is worth it don't you think?
> 
> Thanks to you all for all of your advice!


I would say if you can get it for that price, keep it.
The only improvement I see in the Premier is the new HDUI. Some of that "search" functionality is available in the TivoHD, it just doesn't present it with colorful pictures.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

WhiskeyTango said:


> How many times does it have to be said that Tivo is NOT ABANDONING THE S3. They'll still work just like they do right now. There will be updates, although admittedly most of the attention will be on the S4 now. Jeez. People are acting like they were just sold a Beta Max player.


Yeah, because all those software updates they pushed out last year. Supporting!= not bricking. It's so nice of them to continue to provide the guide data that is out there for free for 12 bucks a months.

It's amazing how many people are unhappy with the criticism levied towards Tivo. I mean it's like someone bad mouthed the iPhone or something.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

djjuice said:


> I don't even think netflix is streamed in 1080p in the HD level.


Correct. Netflix only does 720p. However I believe Amazon has 1080p. Others may have 1080p as time rolls on.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

KennyP said:


> Tivo should be continuing to support and upgrade the S3. If not, WHY DO I PAY THEM A MONTHLY FEE???


because you agreed to and there was no promise by TiVo fo any newUI on the S3 or anything else like that. TiVo is still supporting the S3 units and will send out updates for them - just not a UI that the hardware can not support.

this is the stupidest thread ever. People seem to expect that they get everything they want despite reality and they are not personally accountable for purchasing decisions they made. ridiculous


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Lorelei said:


> We bought a brand new one 3 weeks ago!
> 
> Thank goodness it sits unopened and we don't even have a Tivo account yet - we were waiting until we move apt next week!
> 
> IMO Best Buy should not have even have them on sale at full price... sure sell them but have them discounted and say "This is why..." Anyway we will be taking our one back to best buy tonight - I'll let you know what happens. Not impressed. I didn't think the new one would have been such a big difference. Pfft.


If they work as advertized you should have no complaints.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

rick123 said:


> Tivo should have told me that a new improved model was right around the corner


If anything in this whole discussion deserves a  it's this.

How far in advance are they required to say a new model will be out? They're giving about 1 month notice right now, that's not enough?

Hey, maybe they should just have a banner on their website constantly stating "We will release a new model some time in the future. Don't buy now!"


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Read the articles, they are continuing support. The S3's will receive some of the same upgrades at the S4, just not the UI because the S3 hardware isn't powerful enough to handle it.


Well, I not too excited, but they should have known 4 years ago that they would need a faster processor to do HD graphics. I can only assume that the owners were put perhaps a little too much pressure on them.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

scooterboy said:


> I'm fairly new to the S3, but can someone tell me why it's so important to some people that the UI be in HD?
> 
> Call me crazy, but I use my tivo to watch _programming_, not menus. As long as the programming is in HD, who cares if the Now Playing List isn't?
> 
> Put another way - if you're showing off your fabulous HD display to someone, are you really going to use a tivo menu to do it?


I think you're right on with this comment. I spend 95%+ time watching content which isn't going to change significantly on the S4, at least for some time. And who knows how good the new UI is really going to be? Will it be buggy, slow, illogical at times, confusing to new or older users? I've got a S3 and two HDs and this announcement hasn't changed my appreciation of the S3. I'll almost certainly go to the S4 eventually, but think it's also almost certain I'll be a happy S3 user in the interim.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't feel particularly screwed by TiVo at this time, but I do feel the direction they've chosen to go is not one I particularly align with.

I will say I felt a little screwed when I bought my TiVo's last year. (now I know the TiVo fans won't see my point here - but here goes anyway) You see I bought two "TiVo HD" units. Not series three&#8230; the unit that was officially branded TiVo "HD". It is the only so-called HD device I have ever purchased that is only partially HD. That is to say that the interface (a major part of using TiVo) was not "HD", nor were the MRV transfer speeds really up to the task for HD content.

I clearly felt that that TiVo took quite a bit of liberty calling this an "HD" appliance when clearly it was not designed as such&#8230; just some new packaging slapped around a cheapened up series 3 with the HD moniker slapped on it.

TiVo is still better than the cableCo offerings so I kept them, but my relationship with TiVo did not start out with me being thrilled with their marketing/branding speak.

Given the hype around this announcement, and the little substance actually making the light of day, I feel even more so that TiVo has no problem with not quite living up to what they say their product is about.

I regret that TiVo is in trouble. I believe they have lost touch with what makes a tech product successful. The "CEO", get the stock price up, leverage what we have, put a flashy face on it, partner with others to continue to leverage even more, et cetera "mentality" that is put into place when profitability is non-existent rarely ever works in the tech sector. Egghead tried it, H/P tried it, even Apple tried it back in the 90's and it almost put them out of business. It did put Egghead out of business as they lost touch with what made them great, cutting all that back so they could compete with CompUSA solely on price (ever shop in a CompUSA?). It didn't work for H/P either and it seems they are trying to get back to their roots.

What does work are good ideas. New ideas - not trying to emulate your competition, but out-thinking them by addressing what is wrong their product, and adding things their product and/or the product category itself have never done before, and convincing the market it is important.

Unfortunately TiVo doesn't seem interested in addressing what is wrong with/lacking in their own product let alone others. What we got after their grandiose statement was a pitiful little upgrade that is not even compelling enough to motivate established TiVo fans to upgrade. Now, more than ever, it will be difficult for me to take them seriously about whatever they plan to announce. This is dreadful marketing. Add to that a product which seems stale, even after the face lift, and you have&#8230; well, uhm, eh&#8230; well I don't really know what you have, but I don't think it is going to right the ship.

I still like my TiVo, but it is getting tougher and tougher for me to recommend as I just don't see a future for it anymore.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

asarathy said:


> Yeah, because all those software updates they pushed out last year. Supporting!= not bricking. It's so nice of them to continue to provide the guide data that is out there for free for 12 bucks a months.
> 
> It's amazing how many people are unhappy with the criticism levied towards Tivo. I mean it's like someone bad mouthed the iPhone or something.


1. No one was complaining over the past year with no updates. All of a sudden it's a HUGE problem. BTW, Tivo already announced at least one more update to the S3 that would include 2 apps that are being launched on the Premiere, Pandora and FrameChannel. Whose to say there will or won't be anything further.

2. Likewise, Not Supporting != Bricking, which is the way a lot of people here are acting.

3. Read the TOS. You are paying for a lot more than guide data. You're paying for the right to use the Tivo software. Stop paying and see what functions your box keeps.

4. I think most of us are unhappy with the level of stupidity of the criticism. Criticizing the Premier I get, but the "I was screwed, Tivo should have told me there would be a new unit, we've been abandoned" crap is ridiculous. I have 2 S2's that still work just fine alongside my HD. There are people here who still have active S1's. Just because they don't get any new updates doesn't render the units useless. Our Tivos will work just as they did on Monday when everyone was seemingly happy or at least content.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

vstone said:


> Well, I not too excited, but they should have known 4 years ago that they would need a faster processor to do HD graphics. I can only assume that the owners were put perhaps a little too much pressure on them.


Tivo admitted at the time that they didn't expect HD to become so prevalent so fast and they were caught off guard. Presumably they had to get an HD unit to market and didn't have the time to do it properly, so we ended up with the Tivo HD-a unit capable of recording HD but not fully HD capable, if that makes sense.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

WhiskeyTango said:


> 1. No one was complaining over the past year with no updates. All of a sudden it's a HUGE problem. BTW, Tivo already announced at least one more update to the S3 that would include 2 apps that are being launched on the Premiere, Pandora and FrameChannel. Whose to say there will or won't be anything further.
> 
> 2. Likewise, Not Supporting != Bricking, which is the way a lot of people here are acting.
> 
> ...


Yeah well I can't argue with some of those points. For what it's worth i have been grumbling about my Tivo, though not on this forum, and was going to buy a Moxi a month ago. I just saw the announcement coming, and I wanted to see what they had planned, wanting to see what they were going to offer and see if that would keep me around.

But if you paid for lifetime, yes your Tivo will still work. And if they don't do anything new to the HDs, the best way to show your dissatisfaction is to keep using it until it bricks and not giving them any extra revenue (besides the ad revenue of course). But like I said, I don't feel screwed, I just don't think this announcement makes me want to hang on to my HD tivo or upgrade to the premiere.

I will say that even from S2 to S3, Tivo does make decisions that are designed to push people to the new box. I know that you are paying for the right to use the service, but they need the money just as much as I need the service. I think it's valid to say that a service oriented business model should take that into account when they make decisions on upgrades, especially since the argument is always that Tivo barely makes money on the hardware. If there past upgrades are any indication, support for improvements will be less and less as the lions share goes to the S4.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

The original post is just entirely absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the business of a modern technology company. At an increasingly fast past any techno company that wants to stay in business has to update their product, and they will gradually decrease the support/updates for the old product. You tivohd will CONTINUE to funciton just as it did on day 1- the new product offers new features that will never be seen on the old product- and tivo won't warn you 1 year ahead that a new product is coming or else their sales would plummet. EVER technology company operates the same way. Get over it.


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## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

_"if anything in this whole discussion deserves a it's this.

How far in advance are they required to say a new model will be out? They're giving about 1 month notice right now, that's not enough?"_

Excuse me, but The Tivo company went out of their way to sell every last one of the HD tivos they had in stock, and to make sure they were all gone before they anounced the S4. Amazing, not a single one left and all sold at full or close to full price.

But they never actually said it was an S4 that was coming. Maybe some people actually frantically searched the web (Amazon) to track down an S3 because for some reason Tivo was out of stock.

Many speculated it was a GUI update that was going to make the S3 amazing that was the big, or part of the big, announcement.

My S3s work as advertised. The interface could definitely use some improvements. And although I am not a programmer, I have absolutely no doubt that Tivo could have vastly improved the S3 interface if they had bothered to put anyone on THAT job over the last 18 months. Tivo pushed all these S3 HD models out the door as quick as they could so they could get the most cash out of unsuspecting customers. Over the last 6 months they sold what in effect was an outdated platform while saying that same platform was the flagship model. Fail.

Imagine, a potential S3 HD customer (myself) back in December:

Tivo rep: _You can have this S3 HD model today for $250 ($50 discount) AND we will give you $100 off lifetime service, OR you can wait 5 months and you can spend $299 and we will give you half off lifetime service for a total cost of $500 for a new full featured S4 with bigger HD. Which deal would you like. _
ME (or anyone with a brain): _I'll wait thank you._

Tivo should be offering to swap folks they sold to over at least the last 6 months 1 for 1. Take my S3 HD lifetime back and and give me a replacement S4 lifetime. Most like myself paid MORE for our S3 HD over the last 6 months than we will pay for an "upgrade" deal. The closer to yesterday a customer bought an S3 HD, the worse they were duped IMO.

Go look at the shop section of the Tivo site. There is nothing for sale now except pre-order of the S4. Yesterday you could buy the upscale S3 models, there were plenty in stock. Now they have pulled them off the shelf because they are unsellable at the original (or maybe any reasonable) asking price. For the same reason these upscale S3s are now unsellable, any remaining S3 HD models also would not sell except at deep discount.

IMO anyone that Tivo sold an S3 HD to over the last 4-6 months was duped by a lie by omission. These people were used by Tivo to dispose of the remainng S3 HD Tivos. I personally was sent an offer for $100 off the lifetime sub to "entice" me to by my second unit. It worked. If they had included in that message that the S4 would be out in 5 months I would have waited and got the same "upgrade" offer I have now. And as I explained I would have paid LESS.

Of course I expect nothing from Tivo and no acknowledgment from the company that they duped people into buying outdated equipment being touted as cutting edge company product. That's just they way the cards fall sometimes.

Lie by omission, still a lie (ask your wife!). Sale by deception, wrong.

Failure to update the S3 HD interface in well over a year, Tivo FAIL.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

asarathy said:


> Yeah well I can't argue with some of those points. For what it's worth i have been grumbling about my Tivo, though not on this forum, and was going to buy a Moxi a month ago. I just saw the announcement coming, and I wanted to see what they had planned, wanting to see what they were going to offer and see if that would keep me around.
> 
> But if you paid for lifetime, yes your Tivo will still work. And if they don't do anything new to the HDs, the best way to show your dissatisfaction is to keep using it until it bricks and not giving them any extra revenue (besides the ad revenue of course). But like I said, I don't feel screwed, I just don't think this announcement makes me want to hang on to my HD tivo or upgrade to the premiere.
> 
> I will say that even from S2 to S3, Tivo does make decisions that are designed to push people to the new box. I know that you are paying for the right to use the service, but they need the money just as much as I need the service. I think it's valid to say that a service oriented business model should take that into account when they make decisions on upgrades, especially since the argument is always that Tivo barely makes money on the hardware. If there past upgrades are any indication, support for improvements will be less and less as the lions share goes to the S4.


You'll get no argument here from me on those points.


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## T1V0 (Jun 14, 2006)

(image displayed at 100x its actual size)


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

asarathy said:


> I am just amazed that people are acting like there is nothing to see here, and that complaints are just *****ing and invalid. Tivo is a company that spread via the evangelism of its adopters... that should matter a little.


What's happened is that the forum has become a place where fanboys are trying to justify the decisions they have made. Anyone that criticizes their decision is seen as a slight to them, so they must jump to defend TiVo.

TiVo did upgrade the Series 2 quite a bit and it's seen regular software updates over the years. It's always recorded what it was told to record. The S3 is a bug ridden piece of hardware that is hampered by third parties from operating with the same quality and number of features as earlier products. The S3 and HD are not good products compared to earlier models and the S4 from what I have read doesn't address any of the outstanding issues with current models.

 Grey Screens
 Cable Card issues
 SDV issues - MRV S3 to S2
 TA and reboots
 Copy Protection Issues - Stream v Move

Also in the past year we've seen no updates to the software at all. Either to correct these issues or to increase TiVo's bottom line. I'm sure more will come out about the S4 once it's in peoples hands, but the product as announced is a big Meh.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

WhiskeyTango said:


> 1. No one was complaining over the past year with no updates. All of a sudden it's a HUGE problem.


Really? What are you smoking? There are lot of complaints about bugs that need to be fixed (Netflix lockups, grey screen with analog channels, etc.) and features that wanted to be added (clear QAM anybody?).

I have no idea where TiVo's R&D bucks really went. The new hardware and software don't look all that exciting and us S3/HD users are stuck with features that have serious enough bugs that system lockups are not uncommon.


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## roddy815 (Aug 10, 2006)

I was in my local Best Buy tonight and they had the Series 3 on clearance. Tivo HD was $175 and XL was $350.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

rick123 said:


> _"if anything in this whole discussion deserves a it's this.
> 
> How far in advance are they required to say a new model will be out? They're giving about 1 month notice right now, that's not enough?"_
> 
> ...


So you want them to announce that they are going to make an announcement about starting to sell a new model? Boy, are those guys who bought right before the announcement of the announcement gonna be pissed! TiVo should probably make an announcement about the announcement of the announcement of the forthcoming model. Just to be safe...



rick123 said:


> Tivo rep: You can have this S3 HD model today for $250 ($50 discount) AND we will give you $100 off lifetime service, OR you can wait 5 months and you can spend $299 and we will give you half off lifetime service for a total cost of $500 for a new full featured S4 with bigger HD. Which deal would you like.
> ME (or anyone with a brain): I'll wait thank you.


Brilliant. It WAS meant as satire, right?


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## arson (May 6, 2006)

Just being a devil's advocate here and talking ONLY about the HD Interface: What if the new Flash based interface comes out, and it sucked? Would anyone here complain about now getting the GUI upgrade? I don't hear anything about hulu.com being available which would really be the only feature I'd upgrade my S3 for.


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## rdodolak (Dec 18, 2008)

Anyone notice Tivo's new blog? I found this part interesting:



Margret Schmidt said:


> My team, has been creating this new look for TiVo for the *past two years*. The design came from *over ten years of listening* to and understanding our DVR customers, evaluating the capabilities of our newest platform, and a tireless cycle of design, test, iterate.


http://blog.tivo.com/category/tivo/

You can always voice your option by commenting on the blog or tweeting your opinions at her twitter account.

http://twitter.com/tivodesign


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Meh. I really don't care for the series 4. It does less than my series 3 right now.

Our cable provider doesn't support CableCARDs (Canada), so I'm stuck with analog cable (no unencrypted QAM laws), and the S3 is nice with its OLED display. TiVoHD added nothing to the mix, and neither does the S4, other than a pretty interface.

The pretty interface is nice, but I realized that it made the interface and menu smaller. If you have a right-sized HDTV, that's fine. If you have one that's too small, then the text can easily become too small and unreadable.

I don't know if it was feasible or not to put in an analog capture option and be a high-def capable series 2 type unit. Would eliminate all the SDV crap and other issues that happen until the FCC gets its act together and allow third party DVRs to exist in the marketplace.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rick123 said:


> Abandoning the HD units to focus solely on their new "precious" is not something I will interpret as proper customer care.


Then you should be prepared for a lifetime of disappointment and dissatisfaction, because that's the way the world -- not just TiVo -- is.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

rick123 said:


> Excuse me, but The Tivo company went out of their way to sell every last one of the HD tivos they had in stock, and to make sure they were all gone before they anounced the S4.


That's what they're supposed to do. Leftover inventory is bad, not *good*.

Whatever gave you an idea that that wasn't the case? 



rick123 said:


> And although I am not a programmer, I have absolutely no doubt that Tivo could have vastly improved the S3 interface if they had bothered to put anyone on THAT job over the last 18 months.


This statement belies a distinct lack of understanding of software engineering.

Your expectations are utterly unreasonable. However, I understand where they're coming from. The consumer economy has fostered such a strong sense of entitlement in consumers that it pervades the way practically every consumer looks at every situation.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

melissa12345 said:


> i found out that Best Buys has a restocking FEE now on all returns!!!!


If they didn't have one when you purchased it then you wouldn't be liable for it. But if they did then, well, caveat emptor. Besides that's what you get for buying from WorstBuy.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo's new UI won't run on old hardware. I must be missing something. I don't see how tivo screwed over S3 owners.

An interesting question would occur if tivo removed the tivo search (beta) option from our menus. Tell us the beta program is over and we need to purchase new units if we want to continue to use that feature. I could understand some posters thinking they were screwed *if *tivo removed a feature we currently enjoy.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I couldn't. Nothing was ever promised to me regarding TiVo Search on my S3.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I didn't get screwed.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

My two S3's are working just fine so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the Premiere. I also don't feel slighted that Tivo has upgraded the UI just for the Premiere and not ported it back to the S3. You got what you paid for so quit whining. You don't see any other manufacturers offering free retrofits for older models just because they came out with something new so get over it already. If you like the Premiere UI and other features, then go out an buy one and let the rest of us get on with our lives.


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## leeherman (Nov 5, 2007)

Rick123's complaint makes about as much sense as complaining when Chevrolet comes out with a new Corvette engine but they won't upgrade your '99 Cavalier.

For the record, I own an S3 and two HDs. I have no reasonable expectation that my older models will be upgraded to the standards of newer ones.

LH


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Tivo admitted at the time that they didn't expect HD to become so prevalent so fast and they were caught off guard. Presumably they had to get an HD unit to market and didn't have the time to do it properly, so we ended up with the Tivo HD-a unit capable of recording HD but not fully HD capable, if that makes sense.


plus they thought people would buy into the S3 at 800$ and they would finally make money of the hardware. TiVo really does not seem to get how to market the stand alone box and it may simply be there is just no market for a standalone DVR to speak of.

Still their "Just a warmup" press event was unbelievably off the mark. I watched a video of the begining. They have a wonderful new HD UI on the premiere and instead they have great big music and then...
a picture of yet another black box with a peanut remote on top. Dramatic pause for applause, applause...
hey why is the room silent? What are they waiting for? Oh yah, check out this new UI with a really well thought out integrated search, new apps to run netflix, etc...
but by then the room had been lost as they realized content Nirvanna was not to be on this day.

so the interface Nirvanna went right by
the reason they needed new hardware to run interface Nirvanna went right by

so the real message was lost and S3 owners do not get what is up - but here is one thing else that TiVo did not say
WE, current owners, are not the target audience of this new box. TiVo wants new subscribers, they want people who do not even know orange boxes have been on a best buy shelf back behind the TVs to be hammered by best buy on the shiny interface and look - downloaded stuff like Netflix, UNbox and music from the internet etc.., at some point the clever little widgets like sport stats and stocks and tweets and facebook status updates will be there as well.

So sorry S3 owners, myself included, but TiVo has gone off in a new direction.
and as a for profit business they sold all the S3 they could before doing so.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bicker said:


> This statement belies a distinct lack of understanding of software engineering.
> 
> Your expectations are utterly unreasonable. However, I understand where they're coming from. The consumer economy has fostered such a strong sense of entitlement in consumers that it pervades the way practically every consumer looks at every situation.


What most people mean when they say HD interface is really just 16:9. TiVo could have made a 16:9 interface without too much trouble unless the output is limited to 4:3 in hardware, which I don't believe is the case. A 16:9 interface for the S3/HD would be a good improvement, but it's secondary to my other concerns. The UI works and that's all I want. Consolidated search is nice, but I know how to search and where to look to do the searching. The S4 doesn't offer any services not available on the S3, so again...Meh.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

leeherman said:


> Rick123's complaint makes about as much sense as complaining when Chevrolet comes out with a new Corvette engine but they won't upgrade your '99 Cavalier.


Nope - it's more along the lines of Microsoft releasing Windows 7 and then not ensuring that Office 2010 will run on Vista or XP. Would that make you happy? Just throw out the perfectly functioning earlier releases of the OS? Or not providing any bug fixes at all to XP or Vista?

We're not seeing even critical bugs being fixed on the Series 3. That's wrong and LOUSY customer service.


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## walueg (Sep 9, 2002)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The Series 3 processor is too slow to run the new interface. That's just a fact. Not sure what you expect them to do about it.


The Series 3 is not to slow to run some kind of HD interface where the fonts are smaller and the circles are round. This is a problem that I've been suffering from day 1 and should have been fixed. We TivoHD users NEVER GOT what we paid for to begin with and now we're being abandoned in favor of this piece of crud.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ewilts said:


> Nope - it's more along the lines of Microsoft releasing Windows 7 and then not ensuring that Office 2010 will run on Vista or XP. Would that make you happy? Just throw out the perfectly functioning earlier releases of the OS? Or not providing any bug fixes at all to XP or Vista?
> 
> We're not seeing even critical bugs being fixed on the Series 3. That's wrong and LOUSY customer service.


:up:


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Such a stupid thread...


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## walueg (Sep 9, 2002)

Revolutionary said:


> Such a stupid thread...


Normally, I would agree with you, but in this case we need our bugs fixed. That's not asking too much. I just want to see full descriptions of the programs I'm trying to record. I'd be happy if Tivo stopped there.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

I thought one of the options with the S4 was that you could continue to use the "classic" UI? If that's true, then maybe we might still see an update.

I know my Series 2 (which is still functioning) still got minor UI enhancements through at least a year ago.

I'd consider a font change a "minor" UI enhancement, and I'm not ready to give up on my Tivo HD. It still does EXACTLY what it did a year ago when I bought it. Those hoping for the HD to have better resolution from day 1 are at a loss, but again why buy a product for what you think it might do? I knew the UI wasn't updated when I bought the box, yet I bought it so I could continue to use HD with the Tivo interface I loved so much, rather than the Cable co DVR (which ALSO has an SD interface, at least when I had it).


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## techmonkey (Jan 13, 2009)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Jeez. People are acting like they were just sold a Beta Max player.


LOL, could not have said it better myself :up:


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

mntvjunkie said:


> , but again why buy a product for what you think it might do?


Because it's a computer with hardware and software.

Take your desktop, turn off automatic updates and never apply a security patch or a software update again, don't install new software, and come back in a year and tell us how happy you are. After all, it will doing exactly what it is doing today.

When we pay our monthly fee, and implied portion of that is to maintain and update the current software - it's not to pay for the R&D of new products.

Let's compare this to the Roku platform - many new channels have been added and the owners don't pay a monthly fee at all. Now that's GOOD customer service. I have considerable more functionality than what I had when bought the box last year.


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## mulscully (May 31, 2003)

Do we know that the series 3 won't get a new UI?

Maybe I am missing something, but unless the new box has specific hardware, why couldn't the series 3 do most of what they announced? I do alot of it (well besides the searches) today through other methods like pyTivo, HME/VLC, etc


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

zalusky said:


> BTW,
> Does anybody know if the MOXis can stream to each other or can a single moximate see multiple servers?


Yes, they are aggregated into a single list available on all the Moxi and Moxi Mates. One Moxi Mate can stream for a number of main moxis.

For more info come join us on the AVS Forums

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1095015


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

mulscully said:


> Do we know that the series 3 won't get a new UI?


No not exactly. But here is what we do know

1.) We will not get the interface the new box has.
2.) All units prior to the Premiere have been "end of lifed".
3.) We haven't had any real new features implemented since TiVo search.

I may be going out on a limb here but I think we are not going to see anything added to series 3 unless it can access your wallet.


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

mntvjunkie said:


> I thought one of the options with the S4 was that you could continue to use the "classic" UI? If that's true, then maybe we might still see an update.


The FAQ item on that specifically notes that new features will not be available in the classic UI -- which I suspect means it's not being developed further.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

The real slap in the face is the upgrade discount.


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## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

_The real slap in the face is the upgrade discount._

I would feel treated fairly if they offered to transfer my lifetimes to the premiere that I purchase at full price. That is the real issue for me.

I understand hardware evolves. But I just bought a piece of hardware 4 months ago the company told me was their cutting edge product. It was not AND they knew it.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> My two S3's are working just fine so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the Premiere. I also don't feel slighted that Tivo has upgraded the UI just for the Premiere and not ported it back to the S3. You got what you paid for so quit whining. You don't see any other manufacturers offering free retrofits for older models just because they came out with something new so get over it already. If you like the Premiere UI and other features, then go out an buy one and let the rest of us get on with our lives.


Really, Apple doesn't? How about android OS updates? What Operating systems? It's a pretty common practice. But It's a business decision. Some companies value their early adopters and make efforts to do what they can keep them from feeling left behind, because it fosters good will, and makes those customers willing to take the plunge on the next offering. Again, most people understand if there is feature that cannot be enabled because of the hardware, but when it feels like they aren't doing it cause they don't want, you are going to a little cautious the next time. And for a company struggling like Tivo is for profitability, that's a problem.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

rick123 said:


> _The real slap in the face is the upgrade discount._
> 
> I would feel treated fairly if they offered to transfer my lifetimes to the premiere that I purchase at full price. That is the real issue for me.


Why is this possibly fair to TiVo? They lose money on all the hardware they sell and make it up on service. You're asking them to lose money twice, at what benefit to them?


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## [NG]Owner (Dec 19, 2006)

solutionsetc said:


> No not exactly. But here is what we do know
> 
> 1.) We will not get the interface the new box has.
> 2.) All units prior to the Premiere have been "end of lifed".
> ...


1) Don't care much for the, or any, new interface. As others have said, I spend 95+% of my Tivo time watching content, not finding it. I can live without an interface facelift. Getting some of the interface ported back to the Series 3 line would be nice, but the absence of that backport doesn't rile me near as much as it riles others here. I'm just going to wait until I hear from those who buy and use the Premiere and its software. I'd like to play with it myself, but if it's like the beta on my HDs, I won't be that thrilled. Didn't like it much (and its speed wasn't an issue to me).

2) From a hardware standpoint, agreed. And that's the way it should be. I'm surprised that the Series 2 units lasted as long at retail as they have. The Series 2 should have been retired when the TivoHD arrived. However, should this end of life statement be true from a software standpoint, this is killer. And way too abrupt, in my opinion. There are things still broken within the Series 3 software branch. Those ought to be fixed. The real question is will they?

3) Don't care much for new features, not sure I need them. Mostly the "features" drag the Tivo away from what I bought the Tivo for in the first place: time shifting. And nothing I've seen from the Premiere announcement even begins to compel me to upgrade my two existing THDs. The Premiere won't do what I bought a Tivo for any better than the HD does.

[NG]Owner


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

rick123 said:


> _"if anything in this whole discussion deserves a it's this.
> 
> How far in advance are they required to say a new model will be out? They're giving about 1 month notice right now, that's not enough?"_
> 
> Excuse me, but The Tivo company went out of their way to sell every last one of the HD tivos they had in stock, and to make sure they were all gone before they anounced the S4. Amazing, not a single one left and all sold at full or close to full price.


Excuse me, but that's a very common business practice. Offload your current stock on hand, as fast as you can, for as much as you can. Because after you rollout the upgrade, the value of the old units and their sale-ability drops off signifigantly.

When Apple was getting ready to launch the 3G, the kept selling the 1G up to release day. For full price.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

arson said:


> Just being a devil's advocate here and talking ONLY about the HD Interface: What if the new Flash based interface comes out, and it sucked? Would anyone here complain about now getting the GUI upgrade?


I can't imagine anyone here would ever complain. LOL. 

This is why I DON'T want it on my Series 3.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

[NG]Owner;7808645 said:


> 1) Don't care much for the, or any, new interface.


From what I have seen of it, nor do I. Lots of graphics. Lots of wasted space. Still no important show details offered a list use like original air dates and episode numbers.



> 2) However, should this end of life statement be true from a software standpoint, this is killer. And way too abrupt, in my opinion. There are things still broken within the Series 3 software branch. Those ought to be fixed. The real question is will they?


I doubt it. I seriously doubt it, unless there are real showstoppers that crop up. I think we are stuck with the existing bugs.



> 3) Don't care much for new features, not sure I need them. Mostly the "features" drag the Tivo away from what I bought the Tivo for in the first place: time shifting.


Yes, I have no interest in ordering pizza or watching crappy YouTube videos on my TV. I don't really consider these features. I would have liked to have seen cooperative scheduling between units, and the ability to manage shows (such as setting keep until dates and deleting shows) from one box to the other. I am sure we will never see that now. Hell, the new box didn't even get those.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

rick123 said:


> _The real slap in the face is the upgrade discount._
> 
> I would feel treated fairly if they offered to transfer my lifetimes to the premiere that I purchase at full price. That is the real issue for me.


Why do you feel you aren't being treated fairly? When you buy PLS (product lifetime service) the TOS clearly state that it is for the SINGLE unit. Lifetime service doesn't apply to the PERSON but to the device.

Why is it people don't understand this and that they agreed to it when they bought that PLS?

They are offering you 20% of a new Premier and $100 off PLS for that new unit also. That seems pretty good to me.

Perhaps TiVo should come out with a ULS (user lifetime service) and say charge you $1000 which means you can apply it to any one machine for your whole life.

BOb


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## Corran Horn (Feb 12, 2002)

walueg said:


> The Series 3 is not to slow to run some kind of HD interface where the fonts are smaller and the circles are round. This is a problem that I've been suffering from day 1 and should have been fixed. We TivoHD users NEVER GOT what we paid for to begin with and now we're being abandoned in favor of this piece of crud.


I somewhat agree with this, only in that while the s3 might be too old to run this new 'flashy' (pun intended) GUI that maybe work could've been done on a middle ground.

But, of course, that's entirely up to Tivo. The current one is definitely usable.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> Perhaps TiVo should come out with a ULS (user lifetime service) and say charge you $1000 which means you can apply it to any one machine for your whole life.


Of course then the money-grubbing offspring of these whiners would no doubt try to make inheritance claims for it. Especially if their "dear departed" croaked just prior to buying it.

They ought to just tank the lifetime subs entirely.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ewilts said:


> Nope - it's more along the lines of Microsoft releasing Windows 7 and then not ensuring that Office 2010 will run on Vista or XP. Would that make you happy? Just throw out the perfectly functioning earlier releases of the OS? Or not providing any bug fixes at all to XP or Vista?
> 
> We're not seeing even critical bugs being fixed on the Series 3. That's wrong and LOUSY customer service.


Maybe I'm missing your point, but isn't that exactly what Microsoft did with Windows .../95/98/ME? Or is that your point?


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## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

_Why do you feel you aren't being treated fairly? When you buy PLS (product lifetime service) the TOS clearly state that it is for the SINGLE unit._

Of course it is for a single unit, I've had lifetime subs since 2004 and understand the concept. I would never ever expect tivo to transfer or give me any type of credit on another unit.

My gripe is that I just bought a lifetime sub in December that the tivo company told me was being bought on their top of the line product (they "told" me by omitting to tell me if I waited 4 months my lifetime product investment would be on a product that would actually be supported well into the future as well as being a much better product).

Back in December I was making an investment in technology that in December Tivo was committed to supporting and improving. They knew otherwise but still suckered people like myself into spending money on a product (and lifetime service) THEY knew was outdated and past it's shelf life as they sold it to me.

If I was just paying a monthly fee for the unit I bought in December I would just unplug it and that would be that, I would not mind eating the hardware cost.

Whatever. All the hardcore Tivo company worshipers (sometimes I wonder if 1 person actually has more than one alias here with the similar adoration, praise and defense of the company that gets posted) can continue to defend the abandonment of the S3s and embrace Tivo and their new S4s. I love the Tivos I currently own. They do what they were advertised to do.

I do believe that recent (maybe back 6 months to a year) lifetime purchases on a S3 should maybe get a better credit on an upgrade, but that's just me.
I will probably write to tivo and state as much and make a polite request to no avail and I guess that's just business.

Someone will always get burned by bad timing, it's me this time. Water under the bridge, but Tivo the company should know that I am not happy with my bad timing and I believe Tivo could do more in cases such as mine ( a very recent lifetime purchase on an S3) to make their customers feel valued and taken care of.

The End.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

its sad considering how dreadfully slow the MRV feature works. slow file transfer even over gigabit networks with the series 3 and no real streaming capabilities for shows in progress. You can't even start the transfer or viewing on another tivo unit until the recording is completely recorded. In that regard they have been behind D* and E* for a while now. Does anyone know just exactly what this new whiz bang processor is?


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Revolutionary said:


> Such a stupid thread...


In that there are too many shills in it yes.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

Wow, talk about a bunch of grumpy old men (and women) in here.
This isn't being *screwed* by any means. If you think so, then you need to re-evaluate your definition of being 'screwed'.

The series 3 was released 2006/2007 , and based on then current technology. You can't expect them to be able to just magically predict what's going to happen 3, 4 years down the road, can you?

That said:
I've been with Tivo for a good few years now (since Nov '06), have a dual SD tuner and a series 3. Both are great. Upon logging in this morning to pay bills (been through some pretty major card changes in the past month), I noticed that the 'premiere' is out. of course, I've been thinking about upgrading the DT DVR for a while now (what to do with the old box, i ask myself), and the upgrade price just looks freaking awesome! The premiere is almost cheaper than my HD was, and it just looks cooler.

Better UI? You bet, but you can't expect Tivo to cover your years old Tivo in major software upgrades like this, get over it!!! This is standard, it is hardly being 'screwed'. This is standard operating procedure for electronics.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

ewilts said:


> Because it's a computer with hardware and software.
> 
> Take your desktop, turn off automatic updates and never apply a security patch or a software update again, don't install new software, and come back in a year and tell us how happy you are. After all, it will doing exactly what it is doing today.
> 
> ...


But this logic is flawed. Yes, on my computer I get software and hardware updates, but at some point in time, those stop. I have a Windows 98 machine at home, should I expect to get Windows 7 running on it? NOPE. Should I expect IE 8 to run on it? NOPE! It's End Of Life, and has been for quite some time.

Same is true for a Windows 2000 box. I MIGHT be able to upgrade that to Windows XP, but I'm not going to get any new features unless I buy a new software OS. Of course, with Tivo I am renting the OS, and do not own it. But the hardware that runs my Windows 2000 machine might not be compatible with Windows XP. And the hardware that runs my XP machine might not be compatible with Vista, and my Vista machine might not be compatible with Windows 7.

What Tivo did is they essentially made a BIG update, ALA Windows XP to Windows Vista. The new Tivo software would PROBABLY run on the current hardware, but it would be VERY sluggish at best. So, rather than piss off the 90% of people who are satisfied with the current box that works well with a new, even more sluggish UI, they are electing to keep the existing UI. That is NOT to say that some of the coming updates won't come to Tivo HD, but rather that updates which will work on the old platform will be coming.

This would be the same as a game manufacturer not being able to write a game to work on a 4 year old computer, or Microsoft/HP saying "sorry, you need a new computer to run Windows 7, as your current one doesn't support it". Eventually, we will get to a point where all new software is only compatible with Windows Vista or newer, and technology will march on.

Nothing is upgraded forever in software, eventually you have to buy new hardware.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> Maybe I'm missing your point, but isn't that exactly what Microsoft did with Windows .../95/98/ME? Or is that your point?


Win ME was released in 2000. XP is still supported for security patches and new releases of 3rd party products and it was released in 2002. Office 2010 will be supported on Windows XP. So EIGHT years after XP started shipping and 3 years after its successor, Vista, start shipping, Microsoft is still supporting MAJOR enhancements to the platform.

The Series 3 was still being sold last month but patch development seemed to have stopped last year.

We don't expect continuous updates for the Series 1 or 2, but darn it all, the Series 3 and HD should be supported for at least another couple of years for updates beyond bringing us more advertising. TiVo doesn't even appear committed to fixing bugs while the product is still being sold.

We get guide data and new ads and that's about it for changes.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

vurbano said:


> In that there are too many shills in it yes.


I love this, the people that don't see things the same way you do are shills or fanboys..


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

ewilts said:


> Win ME was released in 2000. XP is still supported for security patches and new releases of 3rd party products and it was released in 2002. Office 2010 will be supported on Windows XP. So EIGHT years after XP started shipping and 3 years after its successor, Vista, start shipping, Microsoft is still supporting MAJOR enhancements to the platform.
> 
> The Series 3 was still being sold last month but patch development seemed to have stopped last year.
> 
> ...


What bugs?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Langree said:


> What bugs?


 Grey Screens

 MRV from S3 to S2

 Tuning Adapter Issues

Those are the big three.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> ...
>  SDV issues - MRV S3 to S2
> ...


SD from my S3 to my S2 works fine. What are those all hot and bothered about an HD UI care downscaling HD to SD for display on the S2?

'Taint logicle.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2007)

rick123 said:


> Although I am not a programmer, I have absolutely no doubt that Tivo could have vastly improved the S3 interface if . . .


After all, how hard can it be?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

vstone said:


> SD from my S3 to my S2 works fine. What are those all hot and bothered about an HD UI care downscaling HD to SD for display on the S2?
> 
> 'Taint logicle.


The issue is in transferring SD content from the HD TiVo. No one is complaining about transferring HD to an S2 TiVo. That particular issue gives you a blank screen when you try to view the shows on the HD using the S2 TiVo.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> After all, how hard can it be?


Unless the aspect ratio is built into the hardware, changing that ratio should be easy. Getting more pixels on the screen might be problematic and a function of the limitations on video memory.

I think most everyone believes TiVo when they say that the Flash interface won't work on the S3, but a 16:9 interface is a different matter.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

walueg said:


> Normally, I would agree with you, but in this case we need our bugs fixed. That's not asking too much. I just want to see full descriptions of the programs I'm trying to record. I'd be happy if Tivo stopped there.


Tivo doesn't create the program descriptions. They get it from Tribune Media or whomever and just pass it along to you. You're complaining about something that isn't Tivo's fault.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tivo doesn't create the program descriptions. They get it from Tribune Media or whomever and just pass it along to you. You're complaining about something that isn't Tivo's fault.


Technically, his argument is valid. I'm fairly certain the TiVo does not display all of the data that is available.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Tivo admitted at the time that they didn't expect HD to become so prevalent so fast and they were caught off guard. Presumably they had to get an HD unit to market and didn't have the time to do it properly, so we ended up with the Tivo HD-a unit capable of recording HD but not fully HD capable, if that makes sense.


Go back and check your timeline. The Series 3 Tivo was the first HD unit introduced by Tivo that would work with digital cable and FIOS. The Tivo HD was introduced over a year later as a lower cost alternative to the S3. The S3 was hardly rushed to market and is a solid DVR. I'm not sure what you mean by saying it's not fully HD capable. It will display every HD format that is currently being broadcast via cable, FIOS, or OTA. The same goes for the Tivo HD and XL. Since nothing is broadcast in 1080p via any of the aforementioned methods, not having the capability to record or view it is entirely moot. Since I consider myself an A/V enthusiast that won't settle for mediocre source material, I don't even consider NetFlix, YouTube, Hulu, or Amazon as viable viewing formats.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Technically, his argument is valid. I'm fairly certain the TiVo does not display all of the data that is available.


What makes you think that?


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

bicker said:


> What makes you think that?


I could be wrong, but I thought I've done searches for actors, directors, etc. that yielded accurate results even though those particular people weren't listed in the description. This indicates that the data is there but it's truncated. As a long time ReplayTV user, it's possible that I'm confusing this with how it used to work on my Replays.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

Stormspace said:


>  Grey Screens
> 
>  MRV from S3 to S2
> 
> ...


Add the Netflix-triggered total system lockup to the list. I'm too lazy to search for the thread link but it's well known.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

vstone said:


> SD from my S3 to my S2 works fine. What are those all hot and bothered about an HD UI care downscaling HD to SD for display on the S2?
> 
> 'Taint logicle.


My understanding is that S3 units with a tuning adapter attached (required on cable systems that use SVD) have issues with MRV to S2 units.
The S3's now playing list is blank or incomplete when seen from the S2, which is unrealted to whether the content is SD or HD.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

The original poster and many who follow are just a bunch of whiners. I guess I should be pissed because my Series 1 (purchased in 1999) hasn't been upgraded to do HD, after all I bought lifetime for it back then. The analog picture is noisy and has humbars running through it at times, I want those fixed. My S3 actually works perfectly, barring an occasional comcast screwup causing me to lose an HD channel on occasion. But I want all the new features for free. NOW. Wahhh Wahhh Wahhh.
Grow up. This is technology, everytime you turn around things are updated.You get what you pay for WHEN you buy it, nobody promised you today's technology when you purchased your box 2 weeks ago, but had you done any research, you could have found out or at least concluded that something new was coming down the pipe, and based on that, you could have waited. But you didn't, and now you cry. GROW UP.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

MScottC said:


> The original poster and many who follow are just a bunch of whiners. I guess I should be pissed because my Series 1 (purchased in 1999) hasn't been upgraded to do HD, after all I bought lifetime for it back then. The analog picture is noisy and has humbars running through it at times, I want those fixed. My S3 actually works perfectly, barring an occasional comcast screwup causing me to lose an HD channel on occasion. But I want all the new features for free. NOW. Wahhh Wahhh Wahhh.
> Grow up. This is technology, everytime you turn around things are updated.You get what you pay for WHEN you buy it, nobody promised you today's technology when you purchased your box 2 weeks ago, but had you done any research, you could have found out or at least concluded that something new was coming down the pipe, and based on that, you could have waited. But you didn't, and now you cry. GROW UP.


I don't want them all for free. I want some improvements (bug fixes and a 16:9 UI) for my MONTHLY FEE. And since I am not getting them, someone else will get my money.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

Hmmmm I don't really suffer from any bugs and as others said, I bought the TiVo to watch TV, not the interface. I'm quite satisfied with the interface. My hunch is no matter what TiVo or any other company does, you won't be satisfied. You are that part of life that we refer to as "diminishing returns," the expense to satisfy people like you will never be worth it.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

gweempose said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought I've done searches for actors, directors, etc. that yielded accurate results even though those particular people weren't listed in the description.


There is another page of data in the TiVo program guide data that perhaps you're not aware of, where Actors, Directors, etc. are listed. (The are not "in" the description -- the description is for, well, the description!) The additional data is accessed using the INFO button.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

MScottC said:


> Hmmmm I don't really suffer from any bugs and as others said, I bought the TiVo to watch TV, not the interface. I'm quite satisfied with the interface.


I concur.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I do think there are valid complaints here. The interface is Tivo's value add. It is why people bought Tivo over the competition.

We pay a monthly service fee which pays for more than just guide data. It is also supposed to pay for software update support.

People do use it for vehicles like NetFlix. I do it all the time and they should be provided with reliable experience.

If they are no longer providing enhancements or fixing nuisance issues then they should discount there monthly service fee by an amount that correlates to just selling guide data.

I understand that individuals who buy products are always at risk that their product could be superseded the next day and that they shouldn't expect feature sets from newer products on their model but they usually don't pay for maintenance on a product that is out of support.

I suppose Tivo could reword it and call it a license fee but that it is not the understanding people have when they bought the product.

My particular bugs are:
1) Netflix crashes now and then.
2) periodic performance lags with the remote
3) Strange transfer confusion when scheduling multiple MRV transfers. IE it thinks its transferring when I go to the next item to transfer and I have to go in and out. 

The copy protect issue is slowly destroying the MRV value that I had I first bought his unit and as a result it does less for me now.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

MScottC said:


> Hmmmm I don't really suffer from any bugs and as others said, I bought the TiVo to watch TV, not the interface. I'm quite satisfied with the interface. My hunch is no matter what TiVo or any other company does, you won't be satisfied. You are that part of life that we refer to as "diminishing returns," the expense to satisfy people like you will never be worth it.


Yeah you're totally right. I've only bought 6 tivos for myself and my family, talked about a dozen others into getting one , shelled out 1000 for a Moxi Bundle yesterday , own 3 HD TVs, Multiple HD gaming consoles, 2 Blu Ray players, and HD DVD Player. Spend lots on Media every month. So I could see how I am not the kind of customer that be worth it for TiVo. Cause you know, not much money that they could get from me.

Like I said, fixing bugs and making the resolution native for 16:9 is not a lot to ask for/expect, especially since I am still a source of monthly revenue for them. But I think it speaks more about you guys then me that any reasonable criticism (I am not saying I've been screwed or lied to or duped, just disappointed and expected better out the premiere) elicits a response like I have made fun of your kid or something.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

bicker said:


> There is another page of data in the TiVo program guide data that perhaps you're not aware of, where Actors, Directors, etc. are listed. (The are not "in" the description -- the description is for, well, the description!) The additional data is accessed using the INFO button.


And people who've done some reverse enginering of the guide data say that there are additional fields, some of which TiVo uses internally, beyond those displayed in the additional info page.

Like the boolean flag it uses to figure out whether a program is a series or a special. It uses that to know whether to offer a season pass option. And there are some others that seem to be used in determining if the fail-safe rules for first run should be applied (comes up when there's bad or incomplete guide data; see 'The Daily Show problem')


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

asarathy said:


> Yeah you're totally right. I've only bought 6 tivos for myself and my family, talked about a dozen others into getting one , shelled out 1000 for a Moxi Bundle yesterday , own 3 HD TVs, Multiple HD gaming consoles, 2 Blu Ray players, and HD DVD Player. Spend lots on Media every month. So I could see how I am not the kind of customer that be worth it for TiVo. Cause you know, not much money that they could get from me.
> 
> Like I said, fixing bugs and making the resolution native for 16:9 is not a lot to ask for/expect, especially since I am still a source of monthly revenue for them. But I think it speaks more about you guys then me that any reasonable criticism (I am not saying I've been screwed or lied to or duped, just disappointed and expected better out the premiere) elicits a response like I have made fun of your kid or something.


What you have said is completely reasonable and whether or not it's TiVo's fault, it's certainly their problem since it goes to customer satisfaction.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

zalusky said:


> I do think there are valid complaints here. The interface is Tivo's value add. It is why people bought Tivo over the competition.


While you're right, to a degree, you're also incorrect. The interface is hardly a "value add". All Tivo is required to do is keep your interface working, which it does.



zalusky said:


> We pay a monthly service fee which pays for more than just guide data. It is also supposed to pay for software update support.


Since when? Point me to exact terms that say this.
The monthly subscription fee you pay is used for the guide data, and the ability to record and transfer programs. No guarantees were ever made that you'd always be able to upgrade to the latest version of the software. That's like iphone users complaining because their carrier fee doesn't cover upgrades to the latest iphone OS. No, you bought the product at X rate, with X UI/OS. If you want Y UI/OS (and if it is available), you get to pay more.



zalusky said:


> People do use it for vehicles like NetFlix. I do it all the time and they should be provided with reliable experience.


I've yet to have a problem with Netflix, but that's not something Tivo is 100% responsible for either. There are a number of factors in this respect, such as 

Network connection
Tivo service
Netflix service



zalusky said:


> If they are no longer providing enhancements or fixing nuisance issues then they should discount there monthly service fee by an amount that correlates to just selling guide data.


Again, the UI is not, and has never been covered in the monthly subscription fee. I understand you want it to be, but the monthly subscription fee ONLY covers the 'services' presented by Tivo, which is pretty limited.

If the subscription covered the UI, then an unsubscribed Tivo would be pretty worthless



zalusky said:


> they usually don't pay for maintenance on a product that is out of support.


Again, you're not paying maintenance on a 'product that it out of support'. You're paying monthly fees for the Tivo *service* (updates, VOD, access to youtube, network transfers, recording, etc). You're NOT paying a monthly fee for the UI.


zalusky said:


> I suppose Tivo could reword it and call it a license fee but that it is not the understanding people have when they bought the product.


No, no, that's not the understanding you have (or some people have). The rest of us used a bit of common sense and understood that we're paying for service here. I don't expect my S2 to automatically be able to do everything the S3 (or HD) does. No, I expect it to do what it does when I bought it, and to do that very well. It does.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

asarathy said:


> I don't want them all for free. I want some improvements (bug fixes and a 16:9 UI) for my MONTHLY FEE. And since I am not getting them, someone else will get my money.





zalusky said:


> We pay a monthly service fee which pays for more than just guide data. It is also supposed to pay for software update support.


The following is what you are entitled to for your monthly fee, as defined by the TiVo Service Agreement _that you accepted_ at the time of Service activation:



> 3. The TiVo Service. The TiVo service consists of program guide information and the following features:
> 
> (a) Season Pass-® recording automatically finds and records every episode of a series all season long;
> (b) WishList® search - finds and records programs that feature your favorite actor, director, team or even topic;
> ...


Additionally:



> 6. Changes to Your TiVo Service. TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice. If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 15 ("Termination of Service"). TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. *This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR. Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.*


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> The following is what you are entitled to for your monthly fee, as defined by the TiVo Service Agreement _that you accepted_ at the time of Service activation:


You might want to add MRV, TTG, TTCB, Music, Photos, and HME to that list because I'm fairly certain they stop working when you don't pay them.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> You might want to add MRV, TTG, TTCB, Music, Photos, and HME to that list because I'm fairly certain they stop working when you don't pay them.


Yes, those are bulleted out in topics 3.3.1 - 3.3.4, too much to quote! 
A link to the Service Agreement that was accepted at the time of Service activation has been provided as a reminder of what was accepted at the time of Service activation.

Should I remind them about what was accepted at the time of Service activation again?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

One thing that you "accepted at the time of Service activation" was


> TiVo may at its discretion change the terms of this Agreement. Such changes are effective upon notification by TiVo.


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## vstone (May 11, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> My understanding is that S3 units with a tuning adapter attached (required on cable systems that use SVD) have issues with MRV to S2 units.
> The S3's now playing list is blank or incomplete when seen from the S2, which is unrealted to whether the content is SD or HD.


Doesn't affect me (no SDV, yet), but I agree that's a serious bug well within what Tivo lists as its capabilities. From a software standpoint, it's probably either an easy fix or some interaction with the SDV code. Not likely to be a cable provider problem, but could be. From our standpoint, it doesn't matter. Tivo, man up (or woman up, as the case may be) and fix it.

They can change service, but they can't just break it. I can't speak for the FCC, but Congress would look dim on discontinuing a service without notice (plus or minus lobbyist money).


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bicker said:


> One thing that you "accepted at the time of Service activation" was


While the statement is true, there has been talk about whether or not that type of language is legal or not. I don't think it's been challenged yet though.


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

I bought TivoHD from Tivo about 2 weeks ago, and I can't say that I'm particularly upset by the new box. It doesn't really do anything that the HD can't. A lot of complaining seems to be that in the future the premiere might get an update that the S3 or HD will not. It might. It might not. If it does, then it might be worth upgrading (and odds are the price might even be lower then). For now, are you really complaining that much because it has prettier menus? My S3 has a prettier front panel.

I did buy a Series 2 once about 2 weeks before the Dual Tuner came out. That bummed me out a little since I could've really used a 2nd tuner, but really the Series 2 worked fine and did what it was bought for up until a few weeks ago when it was replaced.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

asarathy said:


> Actually, I would have considered getting the Premiere if it weren't so meh....
> 
> But honestly that's the point. I am in no position to tell Tivo how to operate. But since I didn't pay for lifetime, they need my money too. So I am under no obligation to continue shelling out money for a product that isn't meeting the expectations (lofty as they may be) I have for it. And the fact is Tivo has a lot of competitors now who are doing a lot of neat things that Tivo is not.
> 
> ...


:up:

on another note, what's all this complaining about "ads"? All I'm seeing are pictures of TV shows that you might be watching already, at the top. I don't see that as a big deal.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> The following is what you are entitled to for your monthly fee, as defined by the TiVo Service Agreement _that you accepted_ at the time of Service activation:
> 
> Additionally:


so it says if you're dissatisfied with a change, you can cancel. I guess that's nice at least.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Go back and check your timeline. The Series 3 Tivo was the first HD unit introduced by Tivo that would work with digital cable and FIOS. The Tivo HD was introduced over a year later as a lower cost alternative to the S3. The S3 was hardly rushed to market and is a solid DVR. I'm not sure what you mean by saying it's not fully HD capable. It will display every HD format that is currently being broadcast via cable, FIOS, or OTA. The same goes for the Tivo HD and XL. Since nothing is broadcast in 1080p via any of the aforementioned methods, not having the capability to record or view it is entirely moot. Since I consider myself an A/V enthusiast that won't settle for mediocre source material, I don't even consider NetFlix, YouTube, Hulu, or Amazon as viable viewing formats.


I'm well aware of the timeline and the capabilities of the units. I think you misunderstood my point. I don't believe I said the S3 was rushed, I was referring to the HD. THe original S3, at that price point, was targeted to a limited audience. Once HDTV exploded, Tivo needed a product to address a larger section of the market, so in less than a year they had to come up with and produce the TivoHD, as you mentioned at a lower cost. That is the rush I was referring to. I'd bet if they had more time the HD would have ended up as the Premiere is now.

As for the 'not fully HD capable' comment, I was referring to a previous poster who mentioned that without an HD UI the TivoHD is not 'truely' an HD model. In no way was I talking about the recording features.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

ewilts said:


> Really? What are you smoking? There are lot of complaints about bugs that need to be fixed (Netflix lockups, grey screen with analog channels, etc.) and features that wanted to be added (clear QAM anybody?).
> 
> I have no idea where TiVo's R&D bucks really went. The new hardware and software don't look all that exciting and us S3/HD users are stuck with features that have serious enough bugs that system lockups are not uncommon.


I'm well aware of the bug related issues, I check these forums regularly. I was referring to updates of new features that people feel they'll be missing out on with the S4. As for clearQAM, as mentioned elsewhere, it doesn't really stand a chance because of increasing cable co encryption.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

asarathy said:


> Yeah you're totally right. I've only bought 6 tivos for myself and my family, talked about a dozen others into getting one , shelled out 1000 for a Moxi Bundle yesterday , own 3 HD TVs, Multiple HD gaming consoles, 2 Blu Ray players, and HD DVD Player. Spend lots on Media every month. So I could see how I am not the kind of customer that be worth it for TiVo. Cause you know, not much money that they could get from me.
> 
> Like I said, fixing bugs and making the resolution native for 16:9 is not a lot to ask for/expect, especially since I am still a source of monthly revenue for them. But I think it speaks more about you guys then me that any reasonable criticism (I am not saying I've been screwed or lied to or duped, just disappointed and expected better out the premiere) elicits a response like I have made fun of your kid or something.


Spread the gospel, brother. The 3 Room Moxi Bundle is a great thing!



b_scott said:


> on another note, what's all this complaining about "ads"? All I'm seeing are pictures of TV shows that you might be watching already, at the top. I don't see that as a big deal.


I certainly do not complain about ads on my Moxi... cuz there isn't any! I do not have to pretend I dont see them like how I use to do with ads on Tivo!


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

walueg said:


> The Series 3 is not to slow to run some kind of HD interface where the fonts are smaller and the circles are round. This is a problem that I've been suffering from day 1 and should have been fixed. We TivoHD users NEVER GOT what we paid for to begin with and now we're being abandoned in favor of this piece of crud.


I got exactly what I paid for in my Series 3. It records HD off of cable or OTA just fine. It's got season passes, wish lists, and a very usable UI. They've even given me extras in the form of Amazon and NetFlix (yes, I have rare problems, but nothing serious). I don't see the Series 4 as a big deal. Actually, it is kind of ho-hum.

Come on, are round dots all that important? If they are, you are leading a really lucky life.

-- Doug


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> While the statement is true, there has been talk about whether or not that type of language is legal or not. I don't think it's been challenged yet though.


In order to be able to assert that approach, you have to be willing to defend what you contend are your rights in the courts, and get a judge to strike the tenets you feel aren't valid. Regardless, I think that's exceedingly unlikely because the product is sold for a particular purpose, i.e., recording television shows, time-shifting, that any judge will give credence to claims that auxiliary aspects must be immutable, given that terms and conditions clearly say the opposite.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

fatlard said:


> Spread the gospel, brother. The 3 Room Moxi Bundle is a great thing!
> 
> I certainly do not complain about ads on my Moxi... cuz there isn't any! I do not have to pretend I dont see them like how I use to do with ads on Tivo!


Do you have some financial stake in Moxi? Or are you just an overzealous user? I think we all get that you love Moxi now.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

wkearney99 said:


> They ought to just tank the lifetime subs entirely.


They tried that once. I wonder why they brought it back? 



twhiting9275 said:


> No, no, that's not the understanding you have (or some people have). The rest of us used a bit of common sense and understood that we're paying for service here. I don't expect my S2 to automatically be able to do everything the S3 (or HD) does. No, I expect it to do what it does when I bought it, and to do that very well. It does.


I don't expect to get any *new* features for the S3/TivoHD software, but I do expect the features that exist work properly.
As noted above, there are a few bugs to iron out.
One not mentioned yet (AFAIK)...the Tivo not displaying YouTube subscriptions/favorites.
Windows XP is EOL, but it still gets updates and bug fixes.

Aside: I just bought Windows 7. If Microsoft comes out with Windows 8 next year, I'm gonna be PI$$ED!


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Do you have some financial stake in Moxi? Or are you just an overzealous user? I think we all get that you love Moxi now.


Just a common troll. Thanks for responding.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Do you have some financial stake in Moxi? Or are you just an overzealous user? I think we all get that you love Moxi now.


Competition keeps everybody on their toes.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Competition keeps everybody on their toes.


He is correct. Without Moxi as a litmus test, how will you know what you re missing out?

Without a Moxi 3 room bundle to compare against, how does a Tivo user realize that a mult-room subscription was an expensive solution with the need to add a subscription to each and every room you want Tivo to have attach to.

or that CC1 is flawed.

Without 3 tuners on the Moxi, Tivo might have gotten away with just 2 tuners on the Tivo Premiere.

Without ad-free Moxi, DVR users may accepts ads on Tivo as the norm.

Competition makes a better product.


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## DumpedSA (Mar 3, 2010)

I would never had bought my two Tivo HD had lifetime sub not been offered. Would have just stuck with the POS SA (see my user name ) boxes from cable. I will never buy a product that requires a monthly subscription if I can at all help it.

This has got to be one of the most sour sour-grape posts. I actually just registered to respond. What did the OP expect Tivo to do, stop all development of new products the moment he bought a Tivo?

I literally bought my two Tivo HDs 30 days ago, and yes I could have returned them, but I'm not going to bother. I've missed Tivo since my DirecTivo days (still have the receiver in my basement). The same old Tivo UI is just fine with me; it is still lightyears ahead of the SA boxes I dumped.



steve614 said:


> They tried that once. I wonder why they brought it back?
> 
> I don't expect to get any *new* features for the S3/TivoHD software, but I do expect the features that exist work properly.
> As noted above, there are a few bugs to iron out.
> ...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

fatlard said:


> Just a common troll. Thanks for responding.





zalusky said:


> Competition keeps everybody on their toes.


I have nothing against Moxi, but this is a TiVo forum.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

MickeS said:


> I have nothing against Moxi, but this is a TiVo forum.


This.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bicker said:


> In order to be able to assert that approach, you have to be willing to defend what you contend are your rights in the courts, and get a judge to strike the tenets you feel aren't valid. Regardless, I think that's exceedingly unlikely because the product is sold for a particular purpose, i.e., recording television shows, time-shifting, that any judge will give credence to claims that auxiliary aspects must be immutable, given that terms and conditions clearly say the opposite.


I thought about this last night and realized that the discussion was about terms that change without notice and the legality of those. I believe TiVo doesn't do that.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Well, I think some aspect of the discussion was about how service specifications change over time, and the (erroneous) impression by some folks that each element of the service specification that is in evidence at the time that they initially accept the offer of service must remain immutable.


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## tdel73 (Dec 26, 2007)

I'm happy with my series 3 and probably won't upgrade unless it craps out. I don't feel cheated by TiVo at all.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

tdel73 said:


> I'm happy with my series 3 and probably won't upgrade unless it craps out. I don't feel cheated by TiVo at all.


I wouldn't say happy. I have some serious issues with my THD that forced me to drop digital cable. I'd like to see those addressed before I invest in any more TiVo equipment.


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## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

When you buy something like TiVo you need to buy based on what it currently does and not what it MIGHT to in the future. In fact that was one reason I waited a while to buy a TiVo HD or series 3 because MRV was a show stopper to me and I was not going to buy and hope they added it. Once they did I bought. I am happy with what my TiVo HDs do today and do not feel screwed at all. If anything, I wish there was enough new cool stuff in the premier to make me want to upgrade my HDs but currently there isn't. If they add some cool features to the premier/s4 in the future then I may upgrade but again by looking at what it does today it is not enough for me to upgrade.


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## bciocco (Mar 28, 2009)

Krandor said:


> When you buy something like TiVo you need to buy based on what it currently does and not what it MIGHT to in the future. In fact that was one reason I waited a while to buy a TiVo HD or series 3 because MRV was a show stopper to me and I was not going to buy and hope they added it. Once they did I bought. I am happy with what my TiVo HDs do today and do not feel screwed at all. If anything, I wish there was enough new cool stuff in the premier to make me want to upgrade my HDs but currently there isn't. If they add some cool features to the premier/s4 in the future then I may upgrade but again by looking at what it does today it is not enough for me to upgrade.


What he said.

I love my TiVo HD and it still does everything that I expected it to do when I purchased it 11 months agao. I am glad for the upgrades that are coming - especially Pandora - and look at them as a bonus. I may purchase a lifetime subscription this year instead of month to month.
In today's fast paced electronics world, I have grown accustomed to having something become _obsolete _within months. I purchased my TiVo HD just under a year ago, when Sears was getting rid of them. I actually expected a new unit to come out within a couple of weeks. My Denon AVR was upgraded within a year. My expensive (when purchased) _HD Ready_ 30" Sony CRT TV was also obsolete within a year. Neither company has upgraded my components with new firmware or given me new features.

BTW, I don't really notice the ads on the TiVo. If they keep the price down, I am all for it.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

vurbano said:


> its sad considering how dreadfully slow the MRV feature works. slow file transfer even over gigabit networks with the series 3 and no real streaming capabilities for shows in progress. You can't even start the transfer or viewing on another tivo unit until the recording is completely recorded. In that regard they have been behind D* and E* for a while now.


Dish Network doesn't support any kind of network transfers. Network throughput on DirecTV's boxes is about the same, but their HD is recompressed into 6-12Mbps, which makes streaming more feasible on older hardware. If you want to view PC recordings on the DirecTV DVRs with DLNA, streaming throughput is limited to 6-8Mbps.



vurbano said:


> Does anyone know just exactly what this new whiz bang processor is?


TiVo Premiere Prerelease FAQ: Overview, What's New

One bit ripped from that page:


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

steve614 said:


> I don't expect to...


Do not misquote people. That second one wasn't from me.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

I couldn't disagree more. My S3 has slowed down over time with each software update and the current UI is just fine. I would much rather have a responsive box then a bunch of eye candy.

And I am NOT thrilled about the video in the menu. I bought my Tivo for timeshifting, not watching live TV so that's just a PITA that I have to remember to pause before going in the menu 

I was happy to see they finally added a free disk indicator


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

solutionsetc said:


> Well... maybe write it in something less of a complete resource pig then flash! An HD interface for the series 3 could have easily been created to run under that hardware's resources, and it could've been done in a standardized platform.


Yup, it's so easy to do that Tivo were just being mean by not putting HD on the S3





> screw the S3 users


Yup. It has nothing to do with the S3 being over four years old and that technology marches on. Your absolutely right


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

DocNo said:


> I couldn't disagree more. My S3 has slowed down over time with each software update and the current UI is just fine. I would much rather have a responsive box then a bunch of eye candy.


As a reminder, the Premiere also allows you to run the classic UI. You pick what you want through Messages & Settings -> Restart or Reset system -> Choose HD or Classic menus.



DocNo said:


> And I am NOT thrilled about the video in the menu. I bought my Tivo for timeshifting, not watching live TV so that's just a PITA that I have to remember to pause before going in the menu


You really think TiVo would make that mistake, knowing how well so many of its users despite live TV? 

You don't have to worry about the liveTV window. You can press SLO MO from any menu, and that will hide the video window. Pressing SLO MO a second time will show it.

You can permanently disable the video window under Messages & Settings -> Displays -> Video Window.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

How do you know that?



bkdtv said:


> You don't have to worry about the liveTV window. You can press SLO MO from any menu, and that will hide the video window. Pressing SLO MO a second time will show it.
> 
> You can permanently disable the video window under Messages & Settings -> Displays -> Video Window.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

magnus said:


> How do you know that?


I can guess, but then he might have to kill me.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

DocNo said:


> I would much rather have a responsive box then a bunch of eye candy.


Agreed but an HD interface doesn't have to have a lot of eye candy to be easier to use and to present more information on less screens. Unfortunately TiVo chose the eye candy route, and from the screen shots I have seen of the new GUI thus far, it appears little has been done to minimize the number of screens one must navigate to decide which show to watch or record.



> Yup, it's so easy to do that Tivo were just being mean by not putting HD on the S3


I think a better word might be lazy. So now the TiVo interface is married to Adobe Flash, and of course any bugs that may come along with it. Unfortunately TiVo won't be able to fix those, and Adobe's track record here has been less than stellar. Hopefully it will all work out for the best.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Yep, that's my guess too. 



Langree said:


> I can guess, but then he might have to kill me.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

I just want to put in my two cents here. I couldn't be happier with my TiVo (s). I do think I spent a lot for the S3, but all in all, I am VERY satisfied. The only issue I have is the cableCARD and the cableco. Other than that, with a couple 1 gig drives and two TiVos, I really don't have to worry about anyhting I want recorded being recorded, all in beautiful HD. I am a very satified customer. And I'm thankful that TiVo is still around. JMHO.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

GimmeMP3 said:


> The Series 3 processor is too slow to run the new interface. That's just a fact. Not sure what you expect them to do about it.


I think I'd rather have an old interface that works rather than a fancy new one that doesn't. I personally couldn't care less about the Premiere. Other than the GUI who cares? I've already got 1 TB drives. There will never be as nice a TiVo as the S3 again EVER. They simply won't spend the money. So I'm keeping mine for as long as it works. Or until they come out with a Premiere that has TRU 2-Way or possibly a 3 or 4 tuner setup. Then I'm in. For now? Wait and see...


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

wkearney99 said:


> Do not misquote people. That second one wasn't from me.


Sorry about that, I don't know what happened.
Fixed.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I too have to note that we're very happy with my 2 Series 3 units as is. We bought them in January 2007 as upgrades from our original Series 1 units that we had been using 7 and 5 years respectively and took advantage of the lifetime transfer. Prices had dropped to around $600 if I remember correctly by that time excluding the $199 lifetime transfer fee. Definitely a lot of money but our original TiVo was pretty expensive as well in 2000.

I think that the new Premiere units are great for new buyers or users that want to upgrade from Series 2 units but just as we skipped the Series 2 model, I'm hoping that we get at least 5-7 years out of our 2 Series 3 units and that we'll be looking at the Series 5 model when it's released. 

Scott


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

magnus said:


> Yep, that's my guess too.


No need to guess when TiVo posted a 122 page PDF. 



> PDFS
> TiVo Premiere Brochure
> TiVo Premiere Datasheet @ Engadget
> TiVo Premiere XL Datasheet @ Engadget
> ...


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## zagman76 (Mar 8, 2010)

Perhaps the new GUIOS/Version will be released for S3 at a later date. Much like they did for S2 users when the S3 came out.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

zagman76 said:


> Perhaps the new GUIOS/Version will be released for S3 at a later date. Much like they did for S2 users when the S3 came out.


it won't. it's already on there as Tivo Search Beta. But it's too slow to use as a primary GUI.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

b_scott said:


> it won't. it's already on there as Tivo Search Beta. But it's too slow to use as a primary GUI.


If they could offload the processing to a local server by perhaps using TiVo Desktop Plus, it might be doable.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> If they could offload the processing to a local server by perhaps using TiVo Desktop Plus, it might be doable.


you think an offload and then load would be faster? no way. it's already grabbing the GUI over the net.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

pilotbob said:


> They are offering you 20% of a new Premier and $100 off PLS for that new unit also. That seems pretty good to me.


Correction---you can get EITHER a $100 discount of Lifetime OR 20% off new hardware. I just went to Tivo.com and did not see the two offers combined. It is just a so-so deal.

In the past, any Lifetimer could get a similar deal with nothing more than a phone call to Tivo in the past, even if jumping from a Series 1 with lifetime.

Last year I got the $299 lifetimer discount for a new Lifetime activation, and $100 off of the hardware. All I had to do was call. A friend of mine did the same thing for a new lifetime Tivo HD (he also already had an older Lifetime box, a Series 1). So being a lifetimer got you a new Lifetime unit for $200 off full price for everyone else. That is exactly the same deal as what is being offered for the new S4, only the upgrade is, uh, not exactly compelling if you are coming from a S3/HD with Lifetime.

I would like to see a no cost transfer of lifetime combined with that 20% discount on hardware. I like the new hardware, though I had hoped for more. Not holding my breath.

If next month my Tivo HD with lifetime is close to worth what is it now on eBay, I may consider seeing how close I can get by selling it after getting a new Lifetime box with the discount. Not because I want the new UI --- Flash, what the hell? It is very busy. But because I have been afflicted by the SDV pixellation bug and it is making me miserable. Even if it is not fixed on the S4, I think I have a better chance of seeing it fixed in the future. It has been over a year with no fixes for this. Might be worth spending money to get bug fix support back.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

b_scott said:


> you think an offload and then load would be faster? no way. it's already grabbing the GUI over the net.


The net is inherently slower than your local network. If all the TiVo had to do was load a pre-formated screen locally Search Beta would run like any other HME app. It would be slower than the regular GUI, but likely faster than a direct load from the internet. That is if there aren't any other technical issues preventing it like a complete recode to build the HME app to run locally.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I don't care what the menu looks like as long as it's functional, easy to use and the machine does its job. This wailing and gnashing of teeth reminds me of....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jonja said:


> I would like to see a no cost transfer of lifetime combined with that 20% discount on hardware.


so I went into Burger King and told them I ate there every week so I wanted to get the combo meal for the price of the value menu sandwich. They would not do it, I was floored they treated a loyal customer like that. Why do I keep eating there? I just don't know.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so I went into Burger King and told them I ate there every week so I wanted to get the combo meal for the price of the value menu sandwich. They would not do it, I was floored they treated a loyal customer like that. Why do I keep eating there? I just don't know.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so I went into Burger King and told them I ate there every week so I wanted to get the combo meal for the price of the value menu sandwich. They would not do it, I was floored they treated a loyal customer like that. Why do I keep eating there? I just don't know.


I do get some free apple pies from Mcds every once in awhile, but only when I call to cancel my service. 

If TiVo becomes the popular DVR of choice, ie the masses all actually pay to get one... Do not look for so many special deals and treatment as they may not worry so much about 1 complaining person keeping their sub or using the TiVo anymore.

Those burgers are not getting any cheaper either...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so I went into Burger King and told them I ate there every week so I wanted to get the combo meal for the price of the value menu sandwich. They would not do it, I was floored they treated a loyal customer like that. Why do I keep eating there? I just don't know.


To be fair, that's not exactly a good analogy since the service portion TiVo offers isn't a tangible good. The thing that's holding TiVo back is the same thing it's been for the past 10 years, the price of the hardware. Most people baulk at the upfront cost of the TiVo. TiVo has been doing better, but the uninformed masses look at the hardware cost *and* the sub and go with the cable dvr.

An argument could be made that IP theft has also held them back. After all, if people had no where else to go they'd have to get TiVo.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> To be fair, that's not exactly a good analogy since the service portion TiVo offers isn't a tangible good. The thing that's holding TiVo back is the same thing it's been for the past 10 years, the price of the hardware. Most people baulk at the upfront cost of the TiVo. TiVo has been doing better, but the uninformed masses look at the hardware cost *and* the sub and go with the cable dvr.
> 
> An argument could be made that IP theft has also held them back. After all, if people had no where else to go they'd have to get TiVo.


More like others illegally using TiVo's patents and ideas to create their own box.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

I wish TiVo would get rid of all subscription options and bundle the cost of lifetime with the cost of the unit. That would stop all the whining about service fees and lifetime transfers.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

daveak said:


> More like others illegally using TiVo's patents and ideas to create their own box.


That's why he said IP Theft.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

fatlard said:


> He is correct. Without Moxi as a litmus test, how will you know what you re missing out?
> 
> Without a Moxi 3 room bundle to compare against, how does a Tivo user realize that a mult-room subscription was an expensive solution with the need to add a subscription to each and every room you want Tivo to have attach to.
> 
> ...


wow - how laughable a post
3 room moxi bundle - 3 digital tuners - no OTA and 1 analog if you get the USB tuner
3 TiVo DVRs - 6 digital, 6 analog, 6 OTA tuners - mix and match for any combo of 6 recordings at once.
I use extended basic cable in analog and OTA for HD so would actually have to pay the cable more money if I went Moxi since I need digital just to get to 3 tuners.

it is CCI and it is not flawed, the cable companies are simply using it to lock down their networks - likely all digital will be encrypted before long as well. Streaming on TiVo will fix that - it was the only thing missing from the announcement but that does not mean they can not introduce it later. Still with twice the tuners it is no problem to have recordings where you wnat them anyway - can you even schedule recordings on the extenders? I thought not.

and the ad thing - we all know well and good no advertiser is going to look at the small sales numbers for Moxi and think it is a good platform to spread their message on. Heck they barely look at TiVo. So if/when Moxi has a million or more subs out there then we will see how they stand on ads then.

so yes competition is a great thing, heck I wish Apple would make a DVR and get the press all abuzzing about DVRs. I did indeed see Moxi as the first real competitor to TiVo DVRs but so far Moxi is disappointing in that regard.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

Kablemodem said:


> I wish TiVo would get rid of all subscription options and bundle the cost of lifetime with the cost of the unit. That would stop all the whining about service fees and lifetime transfers.


That's how ReplayTV worked. I still get service on my unit for free. Although, Replay is out of business basically and haven't built a new device in many years.

BOb


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

jonja said:


> I would like to see a no cost transfer of lifetime combined with that 20% discount on hardware.


And how exactly does Tivo make money off of that offer? It's pretty well known that Tivo sells the hardware for a loss to begin with.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

jonja said:


> I would like to see a no cost transfer of lifetime combined with that 20% discount on hardware.


I would like to see a no cost transfer of lifetime combined with a 100% discount on hardware. That ain't gonna happen either.

To meet your price point, sell your box for $200 + 20% of the new hardware costs. I'm pretty sure you can get $300 on ebay/craigslist for an HD/S3 with lifetime and be ahead of the game.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

WhiskeyTango said:


> And how exactly does Tivo make money off of that offer? It's pretty well known that Tivo sells the hardware for a loss to begin with.


Frankly, I don't give a crap if they do. I just want a bug fix. Thanks for pulling that out of context.

The upgrade deal they offer Lifetimers is pathetic. I got a similar deal going from a Tivo S2 just by calling Tivo, and that was a huge upgrade. This is more like a Series 3+. If they want HD/S3 users to switch, they need to sweeten the deal. (Tivo is *not *giving both a Lifetime discount and a hardware discount as others have written. No one else even bothered to correct that misinformation.)

Also if you had read the whole post, you would have read my only motivation is to get support. The support I've received from Tivo to date is practically nonexistent. I doubt I will see any fixes to the SDV pixellation bug now that they have a new "platform".


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

jonja said:


> (Tivo is *not *giving both a Lifetime discount and a hardware discount as others have written. No one else even bothered to correct that misinformation.)


Funny, that is the offer I get.... 20% of a premier and they move the 3 year PP to the Premier then allow me to buy a LifeTime for the HD at $100 off.

People that say they already have a lifetime on the HD say they got both discounts.

Why do you say you don't get both?

BOb


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

pilotbob said:


> Funny, that is the offer I get.... 20% of a premier and they move the 3 year PP to the Premier then allow me to buy a LifeTime for the HD at $100 off.
> 
> People that say they already have a lifetime on the HD say they got both discounts.
> 
> ...


Not according to Tivo. When I sign in, I am offered "50% off lifetime" (note it is not 50% off what lifetimers normally pay, which is $299, it is 25% off the non-lifetimer price, or $399. Lame). The hardware is conspicuously full price at $299.

Also not according to the Tivo Community FAQ on the Premiere: 
<http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=444083>

"Customers with lifetime service can also add lifetime to the Premiere at a 50% discount ($199) without affecting service on their existing DVR. Only one discount is available per customer per box, so you can't combine a 20% discount on the box with the 50% discount on lifetime."


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

jonja said:


> Frankly, I don't give a crap if they do. I just want a bug fix. Thanks for pulling that out of context.
> 
> ...
> 
> Also if you had read the whole post, you would have read my only motivation is to get support. The support I've received from Tivo to date is practically nonexistent. I doubt I will see any fixes to the SDV pixellation bug now that they have a new "platform".


I did read your whole post smart guy. Only the last 3 sentences in that whole post referenced support. The rest dealt with the discount you were being offered so how is that 'out of context'? SDV isn't likely to be resolved on the S4 either BTW since it still doesn't incorporate some sort of two way communication system.

You want a better offer, and the suggestion you made is never going to happen. You can hope all you want for something better but you are wishing for the impossible and don't seem to realize that.

Also, current S3 owners aren't the target market for the Premiere given the limited upgrades from the current model. They are targeting those with older S2's and new customers. If S3 owners upgrade, great, but the limited discount shows Tivo isn't looking to move everyone over to the S4 at this time.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

WhiskeyTango said:


> I did read your whole post smart guy.


Your apology is accepted.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

jonja said:


> Your apology is accepted.




Way to skirt the issues.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

jonja said:


> Not according to Tivo. When I sign in, I am offered "50% off lifetime" (note it is not 50% off what lifetimers normally pay, which is $299, it is 25% off the non-lifetimer price, or $399. Lame).


Discounts are usually off of the full price not off of a discounted price. When I first heard they were offering 50% off lifetime I figured it would be $199. Of course I don't go into restaurants with a buy one get one free coupon and coupon for a free drink with a sandwich and expect 2 sand and one drink for the price of a sandwich.


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## jfalkingham (Jul 23, 2002)

I kind of feel screwed, but only because I bought 2 HD XL's in December. 

Love the boxes, wish the menu was in HD. Everything else works as "a TiVO works". I'll take the slow season pass manager reorganizing & limited online management options any day over slow channel changes, tuner switch, etc. 

I came over when I switched from Directv to Comcast. I was a big TiVO guy on DIRECTV, but never did like the HR series. Comcast gave me a great deal, so I have TiVO on one of their boxes and 2 HD's elsewhere. 

If TiVO truly 'abandons' the HD series, then I'll probably go to Moxi when the time comes to upgrade or at the very least spend time researching alternatives, not just jumping into the new TiVO box.

Give me a little sizzle now, and feed me a reason to upgrade.... well then I will pay the money and do it. But if you truly just leave the HD as is, you have basically walked away from the platform.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Weird. I just went to my two S3s Now Playing Lists and I have a countdown clock at the bottom of my screen. It's counting down and it currently at 22 days 16 hours and 38 minutes. I wonder what that's all about?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

chrishicks said:


> Weird. I just went to my two S3s Now Playing Lists and I have a countdown clock at the bottom of my screen. It's counting down and it currently at 22 days 16 hours and 38 minutes. I wonder what that's all about?


You've got 3 weeks to pack up your stuff and get out. Your house belongs to the tivos now.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

chrishicks said:


> Weird. I just went to my two S3s Now Playing Lists and I have a countdown clock at the bottom of my screen. It's counting down and it currently at 22 days 16 hours and 38 minutes. I wonder what that's all about?


lol


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

scooterboy said:


> You've got 3 weeks to pack up your stuff and get out. Your house belongs to the tivos now.


*All your TiVo's are belong to us!*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jonja said:


> If they want HD/S3 users to switch, they need to sweeten the deal.


TiVo wants *new* subs. 
end of Transmission


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

chrishicks said:


> Weird. I just went to my two S3s Now Playing Lists and I have a countdown clock at the bottom of my screen. It's counting down and it currently at 22 days 16 hours and 38 minutes. I wonder what that's all about?


is it ticking?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

chrishicks said:


> Weird. I just went to my two S3s Now Playing Lists and I have a countdown clock at the bottom of my screen. It's counting down and it currently at 22 days 16 hours and 38 minutes. I wonder what that's all about?


Nothing on my TivoHDs. I feel left out.


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## jonja (Feb 23, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo wants *new* subs.
> end of Transmission


So? I want my mortgage paid off and a million dollar travel budget. Not sure Tivo is doing a good job attracting new subs. So good luck with that. But they certainly aren't doing a good job keeping the "installed base" happy. Tivo enthusiasts sell more Tivos than Best Buy, so it will hit their bottom line with new sales.

Intangibles matter such as customer sat and enthusiastic evangelism, and often matter more than traditional considerations. Hard to believe Tivo doesn't understand this after all of this time. If the Tivo S4 was the product we all hoped it would be, this would be easy; given it far from meets their own hype but appears to be nothing more than lipstick, if Tivo wants to continue to reap the very tangible benefits of envangelism and customer sat, Tivo needs to try much harder. I think Tivo bought their own hype.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think there are still some people operating under an assumption that there actually is a profitable business case to be made for offering stand-alone HD DVRs to the American consumer marketplace. There is no proof that that is the case.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> I think there are still some people operating under an assumption that there actually is a profitable business case to be made for offering stand-alone HD DVRs to the American consumer marketplace. There is no proof that that is the case.


I think there can be if you can buy them without service fees. If they can move to an Open Source model to reduce software costs and subscribe to public guide services there are a lot of ways to reduce costs.

Cisco could design a model that would build into a modular router that could work with modular add on tuners. There in that market anyways its not a far stretch.

Personally I think the linear broadcast market is on a slow road downhill over the next 20 years and one has to consider that alternative distribution forms are going to blow the current models. We have effectively been doing that by going from the big 3 to cable/DTV. At some point it will break outside of the linear video wires and into IP streaming.

I would agree that the current model of trying to compete against an incumbent that can bury their expenses in service fees is not sustainable.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

zalusky said:


> I think there can be if you can buy them without service fees.


How do you figure that that would make it *more *likely for the business case to be profitable? It would make it *less* likely, AFAIC.



zalusky said:


> If they can move to an Open Source model to reduce software costs and subscribe to public guide services there are a lot of ways to reduce costs.


Wishful thinking, I suspect.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> How do you figure that that would make it *more *likely for the business case to be profitable? It would make it *less* likely, AFAIC.
> 
> Wishful thinking, I suspect.


As hardware prices have plummeted, Linux has become the standard in the server market. It's just not profitable to build and design your own OS. So companies have turned to that model to share the expense. Even in the Windows market it's getting harder to pay $200-$300 on software when the whole computer is $500. The pressure is on.

So that's the OS. In the product arena there is a lot of Open Source stuff out there as well. It may not be here today but as I suggested with commodity tuners like Haupage and friends you could easily slap it into a router and stream similar to Moxi.

Cisco is already in this market since they build and sell boxes to Cable companies. They could leverage that and sell commodity boxes via their Linksys brand and build it into a higher end router.

The only issue is the software and I am suggesting that could eventually come from the opensource community.

How many proprietary products eventually had opensource counterparts.
Tomcat versus WebLogic
MySQL versus Oracle

Maybe not Today but I see it coming. The one thing that would stop it is that direct IP streaming is becoming more and more popular and with that who needs the concept of a DVR.

How many shows get the big numbers anymore. Superbowl, maybe the oscars. There is so much choice now that streaming is a viable choice.

Linear programming was better in the old days when the nation watched three channels not when we watch media from a 100+ channels and HULU, and Netflix, and online gaming.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

zalusky said:


> I think there can be if you can buy them without service fees. If they can move to an Open Source model to reduce software costs and subscribe to public guide services there are a lot of ways to reduce costs.


You do realize the OS is open source right?


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

zalusky said:


> How many proprietary products eventually had opensource counterparts.
> MySQL versus Oracle


These are not "counterparts". MySQL is a low-end database that does not even attempt to compete in the high-end space. MySQL is a pretty decent low end database and I use it for my own web site but is absolutely not an Oracle counterpart.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

ewilts said:


> You do realize the OS is open source right?


Yes I have hacked my box in the past. That was an example.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

ewilts said:


> These are not "counterparts". MySQL is a low-end database that does not even attempt to compete in the high-end space. MySQL is a pretty decent low end database and I use it for my own web site but is absolutely not an Oracle counterpart.


The point is the proprietary solutions are high end and opensource solutions are the low end but the line between high end and low end keeps moving.

It used to be there was a simple java language and BEA built this fancy application server. Then the J2EE standard came out and BEA adapted and built value add on top of it. Then more and more stuff went into the standard.

BEA's value add is now up in the fancy integration tools and the industrial scaling of the app server.

However the home user doesn't need industrial solutions. I am saying that we could possibly see the same evolution in this application space. Right now the companies try to sell the DVR as a value add but at some point it will be a commodity provided with open source.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

zalusky said:


> > How do you figure that that would make it more likely for the business case to be profitable? It would make it less likely, AFAIC.
> 
> 
> ... <snip> ...


Is it just me, or did zalusky not say anything that indicated a source of actual profitability, as his replying to the quoted message would seem to imply?

Profitability means revenue. Where's the revenue? Or are you claiming that their software costs can be zero and that the hardware can magically be made for less than they're charging for it?


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> Is it just me, or did zalusky not say anything that indicated a source of actual profitability, as his replying to the quoted message would seem to imply?
> 
> Profitability means revenue. Where's the revenue? Or are you claiming that their software costs can be zero and that the hardware can magically be made for less than they're charging for it?


I am saying software will eventually be zero through opensource and the hardware can be value add into other platforms such as routers. Revenue means selling a value add proposition with new competitive cost models.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

"Can be".... I suspect not though. I suspect that pushing things in that direction will effectively commoditize the technology, scuttling its profit contribution.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo wants *new* subs.
> end of Transmission


true, but they also want retention. they have to know some people will walk if they're not happy.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ahhhhh...... bicker. that, we do. haha


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

bicker said:


> "Can be".... I suspect not though. I suspect that pushing things in that direction will effectively commoditize the technology, scuttling its profit contribution.


With the Haupage tuners coming that can be bolted into other devices that will happen anyways. Up till now its been a pretty closed platform once third party providers have a way of putting it in their platform comeptition will bring commodity.

As mentioned before tuners and guides may not matter if direct IP streaming eventually becomes mainstream and it is starting to build steam.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

zalusky said:


> With the Haupage tuners coming that can be bolted into other devices that will happen anyways.


Yes... one of the major reasons why I suspect that there is no profitable business plan for a stand-alone HD DVR such as a TiVo. The folks who can make money are the folks that TiVo pays money to... not folks like TiVo.


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## T1V0 (Jun 14, 2006)

ewilts said:


> You do realize the OS is open source right?


only very basic parts of the OS + linux kernel are open source (GPL)

hardware drivers, tivoapp, (the bulk of the *magic*) are definitely not open source


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

If the new 4 tuner ceton card works with FIOS I will be unloading this bologna.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow - how laughable a post
> 3 room moxi bundle - 3 digital tuners - no OTA and 1 analog if you get the USB tuner
> 3 TiVo DVRs - 6 digital, 6 analog, 6 OTA tuners - mix and match for any combo of 6 recordings at once.
> I use extended basic cable in analog and OTA for HD so would actually have to pay the cable more money if I went Moxi since I need digital just to get to 3 tuners.


your kind of missing the point. You use analog, that great, but most of ys don't get HD cable channel in analog in too many places any more, which is the purpose of having an HD Tivo. So let's use the digital cable card route for the comparsion. In that case, your 3 tivos would have 3 outlet fees plus 30 dollars a month for service for being able to record 3 extra shows, on top of the 1000 you had to spend on them. And then of course if you wanted to watch what was recorded on Tivo A on Tivo B, you'd have to wait a least an hour, so you'd be wasting your tuners on recording the same shows.....

There are plenty of other places where Tivo is superior to Moxi, but streaming to moxi mates is certainly not one of them.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

asarathy said:


> your kind of missing the point. You use analog, that great, but most of ys don't get HD cable channel in analog in too many places any more, which is the purpose of having an HD Tivo. So let's use the digital cable card route for the comparsion. In that case, your 3 tivos would have 3 outlet fees plus 30 dollars a month for service for being able to record 3 extra shows, on top of the 1000 you had to spend on them. And then of course if you wanted to watch what was recorded on Tivo A on Tivo B, you'd have to wait a least an hour, so you'd be wasting your tuners on recording the same shows.....
> 
> There are plenty of other places where Tivo is superior to Moxi, but streaming to moxi mates is certainly not one of them.


I would actually say that you're missing the point: it depends on your situation whether the Moxi mate approach is better for you.

There are many folks for whom Moxi mate is better. But ZeoTiVo appears not to be one of them, and I'm another. I've got 3 HD TiVos with cablecards and zero monthly charges (all TiVo lifetimes, no monthly cablecard charges at all for either cable cards or additional outlets). I want each TV to have its own recorder, so each person in the family can be responsible for their own TV recordings - no fights! No waiting to watch shows recording on other TiVos since nobody watches live TV except for sports. I've got 6 tuners which means no HD problems (mild negotiations needed at Olympics time.)


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> I would actually say that you're missing the point: it depends on your situation whether the Moxi mate approach is better for you.
> 
> There are many folks for whom Moxi mate is better. But ZeoTiVo appears not to be one of them, and I'm another. I've got 3 HD TiVos with cablecards and zero monthly charges (all TiVo lifetimes, no monthly cablecard charges at all for either cable cards or additional outlets). I want each TV to have its own recorder, so each person in the family can be responsible for their own TV recordings - no fights! No waiting to watch shows recording on other TiVos since nobody watches live TV except for sports. I've got 6 tuners which means no HD problems (mild negotiations needed at Olympics time.)


No I get it. I am just saying the 3 Tivos and the 3 Room Bundle is an apples to oranges comparison. Obviously if you want to have 3 different DVRs with different content, that's another, but that's not what Moxi Mate does, or pretends to do. Obviously, everyone's case is there own, but ZeoTivo used his example to act as if there were nothing better about the Moxi Mate bundle. Tivo just doesn't do MRV very well (for a lot or reasons, some not Tivo's fault like CCI flag). And for the purpose of my discussion, having 3 tivos in 3 rooms isn't mrv. It's watching the same show in any room, instantly.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

T1V0 said:


> only very basic parts of the OS + linux kernel are open source (GPL)
> 
> hardware drivers, tivoapp, (the bulk of the *magic*) are definitely not open source


And likely never will be open source. In fact I think cablelabs specifically prevents "open" solutions to protect their masters content through DRM/CA. Keep dreaming. Cable DVR platforms like Tivo will become truly "open source" right after Microsoft becomes 100% open source!


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

asarathy said:


> No I get it. I am just saying the 3 Tivos and the 3 Room Bundle is an apples to oranges comparison. Obviously if you want to have 3 different DVRs with different content, that's another, but that's not what Moxi Mate does, or pretends to do. Obviously, everyone's case is there own, but ZeoTivo used his example to act as if there were nothing better about the Moxi Mate bundle. Tivo just doesn't do MRV very well (for a lot or reasons, some not Tivo's fault like CCI flag). And for the purpose of my discussion, having 3 tivos in 3 rooms isn't mrv. It's watching the same show in any room, instantly.


asarathy,

You will never convince these people. They are heavily invested in Tivo in terms of time and equipment. They will always think Tivo is the best. If you have 3 3-Tuner Moxi, you get 9 total tuners.. but 6 tuners is enough for them.

If you need HD/DVR capabilities in more than 1 room, Moxi is clearly the better choice.

I wonder if they did not have any dvr equipment... and was give a choice of 3 Tivos Premiere or a Moxi 3 Room bundle.. what they will choose...


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

fatlard said:


> If you need HD/DVR capabilities in more than 1 room, Moxi is clearly the better choice.
> 
> I wonder if they did not have any dvr equipment... and was give a choice of 3 Tivos Premiere or a Moxi 3 Room bundle.. what they will choose...


That's a ridiculous statement that even the person you're trying to support disagrees with!

Moxi is better for some folks and worse for others. We admit that, you don't, which is why everybody is so upset at you. It's worse for me in that it saves me no money (assuming lifetimes on all TiVos) and loses OTA, which I have on two of my three HD Tivos, and it loses the extra tuners. It gains me nothing of interest since I don't watch live shows except sports, and I don't suffer from CCI byte 0x02 overkill like some.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Shouldn't this thread be in a MoxiCommunity forum on another website? 

FatLard says nine tuners, but I though the original comparison was between the Moxi Mate setup and the 3 TiVo HDs? So 6 tuners vs 3 tuners?

Really, for the Moxi and TiVo Fanpersons, your individual situation should dictate what you get. And it is true your current hardware has a great influence on your purchases. I have all PC hardware and software, why would I suddenly decide to change everything and go Apple?

I think what we should really start comparing is the Premier to the Moxi, especially 6-7 months from now when we have a good idea of what the new hardware and improved OS can really do.

How is comparing the newer Moxi to the 4 year old TiVo architecture an even comparison. Compare the boxes that are closer in age. Premier vs Moxi.

TiVo's 4 yr old architecture looks pretty good compared to the newer Moxi... And the new TiVo will likely look even better once we all know what it can really do.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

daveak said:


> Shouldn't this thread be in a MoxiCommunity forum on another website?


You mean the 6 people that have Moxi started a forum?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> You mean the 6 people that have Moxi started a forum?


\

LOL.... 

I think that is why all six of them want to have forum space here - they are lonely. This is, after all, the *TiVo* Community. I do not go over to Moxi Forums (are there any that are active?) and blast the Moxi product and evangelize about TiVo.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

daveak said:


> \
> 
> LOL....
> 
> I think that is why all six of them want to have forum space here - they are lonely. This is, after all, the *TiVo* Community. I do not go over to Moxi Forums (are there any that are active?) and blast the Moxi product and evangelize about TiVo.


Funny.. I am sure all 6 might have left Tivo for some reason or another to get a Moxi... .and here is the best part... . those 6 probably left Tivo to go to Moxi because Tivo failed to do something for them.

I am sure they posted their displeasure here but you probably trashed talked them on the their way out...

Notice how this thread is "Tivo has just Screwed EVERY S3 owner!


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

fatlard said:


> Funny.. I am sure all 6 might have left Tivo for some reason or another to get a Moxi... .and here is the best part... . those 6 probably left Tivo to go to Moxi because Tivo failed to do something for them.
> 
> I am sure they posted their displeasure here but you probably trashed talked them on the their way out...
> 
> Notice how this thread is "Tivo has just Screwed EVERY S3 owner!


Didn't know the the OP meant this as a thread to endorse Moxi. And I certainly agree, the six who left TiVo for Moxi probably felt TiVo did not do what they needed. A good reason to change vendors or products.

I am not in the habit of trash talking (you can certainly scan my prior posts for confirmation) and was merely trying to infer that it would be more ideal to have discussions about Moxi in a Moxi forum, similar to the TiVo Community.


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## pilotbob (Nov 8, 2007)

asarathy said:


> In that case, your 3 tivos would have 3 outlet fees plus 30 dollars a month for service for being able to record 3 extra shows, on top of the 1000 you had to spend on them.


What is an "outlet fee"? I don't pay no steenkin' outlet fee.

Does your cable company really charge you per outlet? If so, man that sucks.

I pay to rent two cable cards only.

BOb

BTW: Isn't a Moxi about the same price as a TiVo with the lifetime service? so really.. I think the monthly fees will be the same.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

pilotbob said:


> BTW: Isn't a Moxi about the same price as a TiVo with the lifetime service? so really.. I think the monthly fees will be the same.


Yes, the cost of a Moxi and TiVo+lifetime is comparable.

The difference is that Moxi has extenders available, whereas TiVo does not.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Since this thread has developed into a Moxi vs. TiVo debate, I have a question. As someone who likes to hard pad every show I record, it is not uncommon for me to be utilizing six or seven tuners at the same time. Does Moxi offer a compelling solution for someone like myself? I see that you can purchase a Moxi DVR with three tuners, but what if you need more? I guess I'm wondering how the whole Moxi Mate thing works when you have more than one Moxi DVR. If you could just stick three or four Moxi DVRs in a closet somewhere with extenders strewn throughout the house, that would be pretty cool. Somehow, I don't think it's that simple, though.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> Yes, the cost of a Moxi and TiVo+lifetime is comparable.
> 
> The difference is that Moxi has extenders available, whereas TiVo does not.


Or I could just as easily say the difference is TiVo works with OTA and Moxi doesn't and I am sure there are other differences.

Bottom line is different manufactures offer different options and people should buy what suites them best. The chances of one company making a DVR that is "perfect" for everyone (or even anyone) is Zero. This is true with most everything out their. I travel allot for work and have never found what I consider to be a "perfect" motel. I could easily piece together one if I could pick features from the last 5-10 motels I stayed at and put all those features into one motel - but it isn't going to ever happen, so I just pick the "best" motel for me from those that are available. Same holds true for DVRs.

Just my 2 cents.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

gweempose said:


> Since this thread has developed into a Moxi vs. TiVo debate, I have a question. As someone who likes to hard pad every show I record, it is not uncommon for me to be utilizing six or seven tuners at the same time. Does Moxi offer a compelling solution for someone like myself? I see that you can purchase a Moxi DVR with three tuners, but what if you need more? I guess I'm wondering how the whole Moxi Mate thing works when you have more than one Moxi DVR. If you could just stick three or four Moxi DVRs in a closet somewhere with extenders strewn throughout the house, that would be pretty cool. Somehow, I don't think it's that simple, though.


Moxi offers you a way to hardpad every show with a certain specified amount of time. So Moxi will work for you in that regard.

You can mix and match any number of main Moxi and Moxi mates. The shows from each main Moxi will show up on a consolidated list. This same list will be available on the main Moxi and the Moxi Mates.

Each tuner is tied to a channel. So if you have 2 Main moxi, assuming you do not use SDV, then you have 6 tuners at your disposal. You can then scatter the Moxi Mates around your home. Keep in mind you will need a network connection to each Moxi and Moxi Mate.

Scheduling for now has to be done on the main moxi or online. Moxi indicates that schedule/deletion from the Moxi Mates is priority feature they are looking into since they just released live streaming.

ZeoTivo, please chime in with your comments. I keep looking around since you seem to be always on my tail.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

fatlard said:


> asarathy,
> 
> You will never convince these people. They are heavily invested in Tivo in terms of time and equipment. They will always think Tivo is the best. If you have 3 3-Tuner Moxi, you get 9 total tuners.. but 6 tuners is enough for them.
> 
> ...


Can I transfer all my HD recordings to my PC for burning to BD(or to a hard drive) like I can with all my FiOS recordings on TiVo?


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

daveak said:


> I think what we should really start comparing is the Premier to the Moxi, especially 6-7 months from now when we have a good idea of what the new hardware and improved OS can really do.


Most of the people in this forum have been lighting people up for complaining about features they didn't get when they bought the box, so that's not really fair now is it 

The Premier would be a lot more appealing if they offered streaming. As far as know, no mention of streaming to get around the CCI hell has been promised. So I'm going to learn my lesson and not assume Tivo will give me anything improvements like that unless I see it with my own eyes.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

pilotbob said:


> What is an "outlet fee"? I don't pay no steenkin' outlet fee.
> 
> Does your cable company really charge you per outlet? If so, man that sucks.
> 
> ...


yes, Cox in Nova. Switched video, outlet fees, CCI everywhere. All around suck. Waiting for Fios. They are surrounding me, yet not invading my City. Damn them.


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## asarathy (Sep 19, 2007)

gweempose said:


> Since this thread has developed into a Moxi vs. TiVo debate, I have a question. As someone who likes to hard pad every show I record, it is not uncommon for me to be utilizing six or seven tuners at the same time. Does Moxi offer a compelling solution for someone like myself? I see that you can purchase a Moxi DVR with three tuners, but what if you need more? I guess I'm wondering how the whole Moxi Mate thing works when you have more than one Moxi DVR. If you could just stick three or four Moxi DVRs in a closet somewhere with extenders strewn throughout the house, that would be pretty cool. Somehow, I don't think it's that simple, though.


From what I have read, you can. However, you have to pair the mate with whatever Moxi DVR you want, which apparently is more than a 1 button operation, at least now. Also, from what I read, you can pair the dvrs with other dvrs.

Anyway, I didn't really want to this be a Moxi vs TiVo thing. I only point these things out because I really loved Tivo, and I am sad about some of these things that it really should be doing ,that they don't. especially with the Premier. It just seems like they are not evolving fast enough to keep pace with what the possibilities that are out there are, as well as to adjust to the roadblocks thrown at them by the cable companies (Like the couldn't have put the modem in for Tru2way, whenever that comes or a built in Tuning Adapter to future proof it a little(


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> Can I transfer all my HD recordings to my PC for burning to BD(or to a hard drive) like I can with all my FiOS recordings on TiVo?


You won't like the answer.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> Can I transfer all my HD recordings to my PC for burning to BD(or to a hard drive) like I can with all my FiOS recordings on TiVo?


Frankly speaking if the MPAA gets it's way you'll loose that feature soon enough. It's only a matter of time before FiOS caves to content creators like the other MSO's have.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Frankly speaking if the MPAA gets it's way you'll loose that feature soon enough. It's only a matter of time before FiOS caves to content creators like the other MSO's have.


What does the MPAA have to do with ESPN and other channels? I can understand the Premium channels that show movies regularly.

But realistically, FIOS is too lenient and Comcast is too strict.


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## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

WOW! Great thread! (Been busy for the last few days, and just got caught up on all the drama.)



melissa12345 said:


> i found out that Best Buys has a restocking FEE now on all returns!!!!


1) Not true... Like others, I've returned items to Best Buy recently with no restocking fee.



rick123 said:


> Coming out with the Premier GUI while at the same time enhancing NOTHING for current S3 owners is a major slap in the face to each and every S3 owner. S2 owners are treated better than us!


2) So much has been said, but my POV: I'm one of the nuts who bought an HD TiVo a couple of months ago, even knowing that Premiere was coming soon. Why? One of the best things about TiVo is that you can easily sell your old one for most of what you pay for a new one. Has anyone noticed that TiVo HD w/Lifetime is still selling on eBay for $500-600. Hmmm... isn't that the cost of a Premiere with Lifetime?? Not feeling screwed... pretty sure other technology products don't work that way financially...



zalusky said:


> Personally I think the linear broadcast market is on a slow road downhill over the next 20 years and one has to consider that alternative distribution forms are going to blow the current models.


3) YES - Something like TiVo... maybe TiVo... will change the TV model. There will still be free TV, but you'll have to pay for more of the TV you actually want to watch. Apple is about to announce their pay-as-you-go subscription TV model... if successful, others will follow, and we'll start paying 99 cents an episode for "premium" shows... maybe on TiVo (and the whole discussion about Hulu will be moot, because that programming would certainly become part of that model).

All in all, one of the most entertaining threads in a while... thank you!


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

TivoCentral said:


> ...
> 2) So much has been said, but my POV: I'm one of the nuts who bought an HD TiVo a couple of months ago, even knowing that Premiere was coming soon. Why? One of the best things about TiVo is that you can easily sell your old one for most of what you pay for a new one. Has anyone noticed that TiVo HD w/Lifetime is still selling on eBay for $500-600. Hmmm... isn't that the cost of a Premiere with Lifetime?? Not feeling screwed... pretty sure other technology products don't work that way financially...


I see several *listed *for that but NONE have bids at those prices
...


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## TivoCentral (Jul 23, 2006)

TivoCentral said:


> 2) So much has been said, but my POV: I'm one of the nuts who bought an HD TiVo a couple of months ago, even knowing that Premiere was coming soon. Why? One of the best things about TiVo is that you can easily sell your old one for most of what you pay for a new one. Has anyone noticed that TiVo HD w/Lifetime is still selling on eBay for $500-600. Hmmm... isn't that the cost of a Premiere with Lifetime?? Not feeling screwed... pretty sure other technology products don't work that way financially...





RoyK said:


> I see several *listed *for that but NONE have bids at those prices
> ...


You might be looking at ones that are still in progress; to see what they actually end up selling for at the end of the auction, you have to be a registered user, and click on "Show only Completed Listings" on the left.

For HD with Lifetime, 3 sold for $660-$714, and another 17 sold for $500+ (and, by the way, all but a couple sold March 2 or later.)

Of course, over time this will change, but keep in mind that even old Series 2 with Lifetime can still go for $200-300! Bottom line, TiVo REALLY holds its value, enabling us devoted TiVo fans to upgrade economically!...


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

TivoCentral said:


> 3) YES - Something like TiVo... maybe TiVo... will change the TV model. *There will still be free TV, but you'll have to pay for more of the TV you actually want to watch.* Apple is about to announce their pay-as-you-go subscription TV model... if successful, others will follow, and we'll start paying 99 cents an episode for "premium" shows... maybe on TiVo (and the whole discussion about Hulu will be moot, because that programming would certainly become part of that model).
> 
> All in all, one of the most entertaining threads in a while... thank you!


Hope you are wrong. The only people this would benefit are the content providers. In that it would take more cash from our pockets to put in theirs. :down:


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It's fair though, given that so many of us aren't watching commercials, thereby setting the broadcasters, and therefore the content owners, up for a precipitous fall in revenue from advertising. We've chosen not to "pay" by watching commercials and letting commercials drive our purchasing decisions, so we have to live with the consequences of that. I'm prepared; it's a fair exchange to me.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

bicker said:


> It's fair though, given that so many of us aren't watching commercials, thereby setting the broadcasters, and therefore the content owners, up for a precipitous fall in revenue from advertising. We've chosen not to "pay" by watching commercials and letting commercials drive our purchasing decisions, so we have to live with the consequences of that. I'm prepared; it's a fair exchange to me.


My first preference would be "metered" model similar to cell phone. You pay per minute with more you use the less per minute charge. Perhaps even unlimited plans available for people who need it. For DVR users it could be done they way DirecTV does PPV. It is free to record and you pay when you start watching.


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

samo said:


> My first preference would be "metered" model similar to cell phone. You pay per minute with more you use the less per minute charge. *Perhaps even unlimited plans available for people who need it.* For DVR users it could be done they way DirecTV does PPV. It is free to record and you pay when you start watching.


That's the plan we'd have to buy. 
At least I can afford it, so it's not really going to hurt me _that_ much. It just scares me to give the content providers that much control. I will (unhappily) pay whatever they charge, and that's what scares me. I think a LOT of people would do the same. Kind of gives them free reign to rape us on the costs. Hopefully there is enough competition to keep the costs down. Which begs the question. Will this stimulate competition or kill it?


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