# Thinking about going OTA only



## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!

The S3 and Cable:

Cablecard installation, cablecard failures, cable signal strength issues, poor customer service at the cable companies, expensive -- yet needless -- truck rolls, pixelization problems, lost audio, lost channels, having to lie to cable companies about having an S3 just so they'll come to put cablecards in it, non-mapping tuners, and on and on and on.


Satellite:

Incompatibility with the S3 and Sony DVR's, the abandoned 10-250, tall trees. rain fade, snow fade, thunderstorm fade, poor DVR's, compressed picture in HD, too few HD channels, new 5-LNB dish required for HD locals and the expanded HD lineup, 1 LNB, 2-LNB, 3-LNB, 5-LNB...will it ever end?? Multi-switch required for extra sets, Dish has more HD than DTV ha ha but DTV people say the Dish HD is lousy anyway so there and on and on....


The Sony HD Recorders and Cable:

Everything under the "S3 and Cable" above, PLUS...Trouble with the TVGOS lineup, disappearing guides, shows that don't record, guides that load way too slowly, lost audio, freeze-ups, who's fault is the guide trouble: the local PBS people, the cable people, TVGOS people, Gemstar people, and on and on and on.

Wow!

I know that may, many people here enjoy the cerebral challenge all this presents. And fortunately, the people here are very, very helpful in trying to solve problems for their fellow viewers. That's the best thing of all.

But...am I the only one who feels the slow, steady pull of OTA HD? I could have it, and record it for free on my two Sony HD DVR's, and I've already paid three years for the Tivo S3 subscription...and I love the S3...

Right now I have an OTA UHF antenna, and it brings in a sparking HD picture, vibrant 5.1 sound, and, whether via S3, the Sony's or just through my 40" Sony Bravia w/dolby digital out to the amp...the experience is thrilling!

Oh yeah...programming. That's the one flaw in my plan. But what are your thoughts? Would the HUGE reduction in programming be worth it, for the HUGE reduction in hassles?


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

I dumped everything for OTA HD nearly 2 years ago.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

snathanb said:


> I dumped everything for OTA HD nearly 2 years ago.


Yeah...I'm really leaning that way.

It's funny, but when HBO is really hot...like, _The Sopranos _ followed by _Rome_ followed by _Extras_ or _Entourage _ followed by _Curb Your Enthusiasm, _ I would never think about dumping it.

But now? Seems to me all they show are movies from mid-1990's day in and day out.

And hey, I can watch _"The Daily Show_" online!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

That's all I'm recording in HD is OTA. That and analog cable with my S3. It works flawlessly.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

If I had a decent OTA lineup avaliable, I'd probably consider cancelling pay TV services and go OTA, maybe even with a Series 3 (If I had enough scratch to buy one).


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

HD_Dude said:


> It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!
> 
> The S3 and Cable:
> 
> ...


 And when you consider that some "cable" content could become ala carte download at some point in the future, paying your cable company for anything more than broadband Internet becomes truly a debate.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I have satellite and use OTA for my local networks. The only channel I would really miss from satellite is SciFi, I watch other channels but wouldn't really miss them. I know many people who only watch OTA - most of them aren't even watching digital/HD yet. 

I haven't decided what I am going to do when I go HD - I have toyed with the idea of OTA only and signing up for NetFlix. Have to decide sometime this month if it is worth getting a Series 3 and transferring lifetime form my Series 2 before getting an HD TV or not. 

Good Luck,


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

20TIL6 said:


> And when you consider that some "cable" content could become ala carte download at some point in the future, paying your cable company for anything more than broadband Internet becomes truly a debate.


Very true! Lots of first-run shows on Comedy Central are available online...the 'nets advertise it too...like Desperate Housewives, as soon as its been on the air, they run the episode online. There seems to be a trend in that direction.


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

If my HR10-250 would continue to work without having to pay for DirecTV, I would probably go just OTA as well.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

While INHD and the like are nice - I'm not sure it justifies the $50 or so I spend for the luxury of cable.

If I could download content (even pay per episode) from fx / USA / SciFi I'd probably go that way vs cable. The Bundle for phone / Internet / Cable is pretty much the only reason I've got digital cable.

Even now 90% or more of what I record I could get from off-air.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> That's all I'm recording in HD is OTA. That and analog cable with my S3. It works flawlessly.


I'm thinking about that myself. Digital cable is mostly crap, and if HBO or someone decides to do a good show, it'll be on DVD in a couple of months. The S3 works great with both OTA and analog cable. And I use Netflix for my movies.

I hate paying Charter to treat me like crap. I could drop digital, go to AT&T for DSL instead of the cable modem, and I'd save at least $60 per month. That's not a lot of money, but I'd be getting 95% of what I watch now, and I'd have the satisfaction of giving a big "FU" to Charter.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

Yep. I agree one thousand percent.

And here's a bonus: if something goes wrong with my OTA...The tech would be me!

I may not be a rocket scientist, but I can sure handle an antenna.

Of course, I'd have to figure out how to put myself on hold for 45 minutes....lol


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

HD_Dude said:


> Yeah...I'm really leaning that way.
> 
> It's funny, but when HBO is really hot...like, _The Sopranos _ followed by _Rome_ followed by _Extras_ or _Entourage _ followed by _Curb Your Enthusiasm, _ I would never think about dumping it.


For me, it was like ripping off a band-aid. Hurt for a second, but fine after that.


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## Wilburd (Nov 13, 2006)

I've never had cable or satellite and when I go over to friends that do, they sit there and constantly switch channels to see what's on. While I have to admit that I see things on pay TV that I'd like to see, they have increasingly become available on DVD. A Netflix subscription and OTA allow me to see almost anything I care to see--movies, HBO shows (Deadwood, Sopranos, etc) , and other cable network movies and series. And watching a series on DVD is great. Why wait months to see the whole thing when you can watch episodes one after the other. It makes it definitely more enjoyable. 

Over the past few years I've discovered a lot of great foreign movies that will never be shown on cable or satellite. And even the foreign movies that are crap are more interesting than anything Hollywood puts out.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

HD_Dude said:


> Of course, I'd have to figure out how to put myself on hold for 45 minutes....lol


Cell phone in one hand, landline in the other

Call your landline
"Hello?"
"Hi, I need help with my antenna"
"One moment, I'll transfer you"
put landline phone down on top of clock radio set to easy listening

go have a beer. You'll both be back in time to help.

On the topic of OTA, that's my plan. I just got my Series3 -- about an hour and a half ago when I got home from work! *yay* My next investment will be a good antenna, and I should be able to pick up all the local stations.

Can't give up analog cable tho; I'd be lost without Comedy Central and SciFi Channel.


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## jrinck (Nov 24, 2004)

CHANNELS I WATCH THE MOST:

ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX
ESPN
A&E
SPIKE

So why am I paying $90 per month to DirecTV for the premiere package? Why should I even pay for the most basic package? That's a lot of money to pay for stations I can get over the air for free, and my life isn't going to end if I don't have ESPN, A&E, or Spike.

I think I'd be better served by getting an HDTV, OTA antenna, and some sort of DVR software/interface for my PC.

Maybe I'll come back in five years once the content providers and cable/sat folks figure out why I left. But I won't be holding my breath.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> I'm thinking about that myself. Digital cable is mostly crap, and if HBO or someone decides to do a good show, it'll be on DVD in a couple of months. The S3 works great with both OTA and analog cable. And I use Netflix for my movies.
> 
> I hate paying Charter to treat me like crap. I could drop digital, go to AT&T for DSL instead of the cable modem, and I'd save at least $60 per month. That's not a lot of money, but I'd be getting 95% of what I watch now, and I'd have the satisfaction of giving a big "FU" to Charter.


Charles - I'm with you there. I love NOT paying our local cableco (Mediacom) the $$. They already get about $60/month for our analog cable/high speed Internet service. The only cable non-premium HD I would EVER watch is ESPN, and I pretty much have my fill right now of HD sports (especially with nearly all NFL games in HD on the major networks).



TydalForce said:


> ...Can't give up analog cable tho; I'd be lost without Comedy Central and SciFi Channel.


+me


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

One more inquiry for my ultra-knowledgeable friends....

I've heard that DTV HD is compressed.

And that cable HD is 'less compressed.'

So...is OTA HD completely UNcompressed?

So theoretically, is OTA HD the best possible picture?

And if so, would it be best w/o the Tivo in the loop? As in, straight from the antenna into a HDTV set?

I LOVE my S3, but if I'm sitting there, at the start time of a show, would I see a better picture by going directly through the HDTV tuner in the set and by-passing the S3?

As I said, I LOVE the S3...but if live HD is better than buffered HD, why use the S3 to watch live HDTV?

Thanx


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I was just reading a thread about OTA vs. Cable HD quality

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325316

There's a few factors...

OTA should be a little better than Cable
Partly depends on the tuner - S3 TiVo appears to have a really good tuner compared to some equipment

So why use the S3? Pause, rewind, fast-forward, and record for later - all the TiVo'y goodness!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Shawn95GT said:


> If I could download content (even pay per episode) from fx / USA / SciFi I'd probably go that way vs cable.


Can you say iTunes Store? I thought you could.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

I'd got OTA only if I could reasonably, but most people in Northern Colorado don't have that option.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

HD_Dude said:


> So theoretically, is OTA HD the best possible picture?
> 
> And if so, would it be best w/o the Tivo in the loop? As in, straight from the antenna into a HDTV set?
> 
> ...


There is absolutely no difference in quality from watching HD live or recorded with a S3 TiVo-- the TiVo doesn't encode or compress anything further; it just records the digital bits coming over the air. It's indistinguishable from live HD.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

David Platt said:


> There is absolutely no difference in quality from watching HD live or recorded with a S3 TiVo-- the TiVo doesn't encode or compress anything further; it just records the digital bits coming over the air. It's indistinguishable from live HD.


Really? I thought to buffer the signal, so it can be rewound, paused, fast-forwarded and recorded, it required some sort of compression...like MPEG.

I'd always heard that if it wasn't compressed, the data would be so huge you'd need a zillion gig HDD.

No?


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## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

HD_Dude said:


> Really? I thought to buffer the signal, so it can be rewound, paused, fast-forwarded and recorded, it required some sort of compression...like MPEG.
> 
> I'd always heard that if it wasn't compressed, the data would be so huge you'd need a zillion gig HDD.
> 
> No?


FYI: HD is already in MPEG-2 or better compression no need to change it.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV for more info

Tim S


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Antenna, S3, HD-DVD, I am almost ready to dump DirecTV. 

Cannot do it until the S3 has MRV or my lovely wife would KILL me.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

if I could just figure out what antenna to get.... 
(has to be internal. one I want is kinda large. oh, decisions decisions)


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## dolcevita (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks to the OP, I've been going through the same quandary. Interestingly, the pricing of the S3 becomes a lot more palatable when you realize you can potentially recoup the investment by dumping cable.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TydalForce said:


> if I could just figure out what antenna to get....
> (has to be internal. one I want is kinda large. oh, decisions decisions)


Tydal - Depending on how much room you have, and if your stations are all UHF, I would wholeheartedly recommend the Channel Master 4221. This baby pulls 'em in very nicely. But, remember, if your antenna is inside, you'll lose up to 50% of your gain.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

That's one ugly antenna... haha...

Its going to be inside. I know inside sucks, but I don't really have the opportunity to run cable through walls, mount things on the roof, etc. I *might* be able to get something in the attic, but I'm not counting on it.

Not only is it inside, but it'll be in an already cramped bedroom. At the moment, all my stations are UHF, but rumour has it one of them will switch to VHF after the Great Analogue Cutoff of 2008.

The one that's tops on my list, based on my research and people's reviews is Winegard's SharpShooter: http://www.winegard.com/offair/sharpshooter.htm (or the same thing under Turk's name).

My second place is a crappy little Zenith: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2457881 because its cheap, and got decent reviews for its class.

The SharpShooter's biggest downfall is its size - its just over 2 feet wide! I don't know where to put the bloody thing!


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Finally we've found the target market.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

jrinck said:


> So why am I paying $90 per month to DirecTV for the premiere package?


So D* will waive the DVR fee?


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Awesome thread. Now that I think about, why *am* I paying 60 some dollars a month to these providers. However, like another poster said, I'd be hard pressed to live without all the network channels like Comedy Central, Sci-Fi, Discovery, TLC, etc. I think the educational channels would be hardest to part with. They have some really interesting non-fiction programming. Where else you gonna get that stuff?


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

TydalForce said:


> if I could just figure out what antenna to get....
> (has to be internal. one I want is kinda large. oh, decisions decisions)


I recommend the Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna (aka the Silver Sensor), although it was $20 from Amazon when I got it. It's great.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Yeah, that one's roughly half the price of the other one... I guess it'd be worth trying. I'm near enough to the towers I can pick up our local CBS station with just a paperclip... add a few more paperclips and I'm picking up the rest

Hmmm Xmas is coming, and people keep asking me for gift ideas...


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Wilburd said:


> I've never had cable or satellite and when I go over to friends that do, they sit there and constantly switch channels to see what's on. While I have to admit that I see things on pay TV that I'd like to see, they have increasingly become available on DVD. A Netflix subscription and OTA allow me to see almost anything I care to see--movies, HBO shows (Deadwood, Sopranos, etc) , and other cable network movies and series. And watching a series on DVD is great. Why wait months to see the whole thing when you can watch episodes one after the other. It makes it definitely more enjoyable.


I wouldn't be able to stand OTA. We used to have OTA only ~20 years ago where I live now and the reception was horrible on all channels except 1. We had go to cable. I've confirmed via a Sony Watchman (OTA only) that OTA reception still sucks. I'm the only one living there now and I have DirecTV.

As for Netflix, it sounds like you're not a TiVo owner. There's SO much good non-movie stuff on TV, I can barely even watch 1 movie a month on DVD via rental let alone the amount needed to justify a Netflix subscription. I'm dead serious. There's SO much good stuff that's on while you're not in front of the TV and/or not home.

I also have to watch things that it'd make no sense to put out on DVD like Nightly Business Report and Mad Money (on every weekday) since I'm active in the stock market. The latter is on CNBC so OTA is out of the question there.

In the case of the DVDs above, you have to wait MONTHS for the DVDs to come out AFTER the season is ver.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

HD_Dude said:


> It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!
> 
> The S3 and Cable:
> 
> ...


Are these problems you have experienced personally or just a compilation of anecdotes?

Do you have tall trees near you? I have no problems w/trees being in the way. In my two years of DirecTV I've encountered 0 instances of rain/thunderstom fade causing no signal/dropped frames that I'm aware of. I have no high def, but my 3 LNB dish has 4 outputs (built in multi-switch) on it so it'll drive up to 4 single tuner receivers or 2 dual tuner units.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

cwerdna said:


> I have no problems w/trees being in the way. In my two years of DirecTV I've encountered 0 instances of rain/thunderstom fade causing no signal/dropped frames that I'm aware of.


Maybe CA has better weather than DC?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

CraigHB said:


> Awesome thread. Now that I think about, why *am* I paying 60 some dollars a month to these providers. However, like another poster said, I'd be hard pressed to live without all the network channels like Comedy Central, Sci-Fi, Discovery, TLC, etc. I think the educational channels would be hardest to part with. They have some really interesting non-fiction programming. Where else you gonna get that stuff?


In my system, most of the stuff I watch Sci-Fi, Comedy Central, Discovery, TLC, Speed, Animal Planet (those damn Meerkats just cannot stay out of trouble) and, of course, Toon are all on the analog cable channels. If I get my locals from the antenna, I can get the "expanded basic" cable for $32 per month, saving me at least $50 over what I pay now. And it appears I can save $15 to $20 going with DSL.

After my experiences with Charter and their cablecard "support," I'm pretty tempted to do it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> In my system, most of the stuff I watch Sci-Fi, Comedy Central, Discovery, TLC, Speed, Animal Planet (those damn Meerkats just cannot stay out of trouble) and, of course, Toon are all on the analog cable channels. If I get my locals from the antenna, I can get the "expanded basic" cable for $32 per month, saving me at least $50 over what I pay now. And it appears I can save $15 to $20 going with DSL.
> 
> After my experiences with Charter and their cablecard "support," I'm pretty tempted to do it.


DO IT....C'MON, MAN, DO IT!!!! YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!!


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

mattack said:


> Can you say iTunes Store? I thought you could.


Ugh - I installed the POS iTunes software on my laptop to check it out.

Some of the Sci-Fi stuff is there but none of the FX / USA content i'm interested in . I'm sure it'll keep getting better and better.

How DRM'd is the content?


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Video and music from the iTunes store will play on up to 5(? maybe 7) computers authorized under your account, and to as many iPods as you may have. QuickTime player can also play these.

Presumably, you'll be able to stream them to the TV via Apple's "iTV" due out early 2007
http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/

I've seen utilities that can strip the DRM, but haven't used them myself.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

cwerdna said:


> Are these problems you have experienced personally or just a compilation of anecdotes?
> 
> Do you have tall trees near you? I have no problems w/trees being in the way. In my two years of DirecTV I've encountered 0 instances of rain/thunderstom fade causing no signal/dropped frames that I'm aware of. I have no high def, but my 3 LNB dish has 4 outputs (built in multi-switch) on it so it'll drive up to 4 single tuner receivers or 2 dual tuner units.


Actually, every individual thing I referenced is something I personally experienced.

When I moved into my place 6 years ago (Suburban DC) I popped up my old 2-LNB Dish and had a 90 signal on most transponders.

However, a bad thunderstorm would wipe out the signal to '0.' Again and again. Oh well, that's sateliite, I thought.

Over the years, the massive trees up the street just plain grew. I maintained the 90 in winter...but in full--leaf summer? It started dropping, eventually to the 50's. When that happens, if you're not familiar, you start to see pixelization on some of the channels...then more, and more until it becomes unwatchable.

Higher, I thought! So I went to the peak on my roof, requiring a 40 foot ladder, and upgraded to a 3-LNB dish, capable of HD. Worked fine. 
So well, I upgraded to an 8-output multiswitch, allowing me to use two 10-250's with both tuners active, and a bunch of ReplayTV/Sat STB combos around the house. Upgraded at the same time to a UHF rooftop antenna, for my local HD stations. HD, and even SD Heaven.

But once again, the trees grew. and satellite eventually became a 'winter only' concept.

So I went with cable...but during the wait for installation, I used OTA HD. Perfect. Hmm, I thought...could this be all I'd ever need?

Well, I couldn't very well take NickToons away from my daughter, so I went ahead and did cable.

But then all the other problems I referenced happened...again and again.

I'm delighted to hear you've had a good DirecTV experience. I would have never left, except for the loss of signal.

Now, though, I'm getting close to just shutting down everything. But, HD-OTA.


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## footmasta (Dec 1, 2005)

I have been thinking about the same thing, but I need to find a way to retain SPEED and DISCOVERY channel at the least.


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## Wilburd (Nov 13, 2006)

cwerdna said:


> I wouldn't be able to stand OTA. We used to have OTA only ~20 years ago where I live now and the reception was horrible on all channels except 1. We had go to cable. I've confirmed via a Sony Watchman (OTA only) that OTA reception still sucks. I'm the only one living there now and I have DirecTV.
> 
> As for Netflix, it sounds like you're not a TiVo owner. There's SO much good non-movie stuff on TV, I can barely even watch 1 movie a month on DVD via rental let alone the amount needed to justify a Netflix subscription. I'm dead serious. There's SO much good stuff that's on while you're not in front of the TV and/or not home.
> 
> ...


IF OTA "sucks" where you live, that's too bad, but digital OTA reception offers a perfect picture--for free.

I subscribe to Netflix and own two Tivos and you don't believe it? Big whoop. I think my problem is that, "There's SO much good stuff that's on while you're not in front of the TV and/or not home." That's probably why whenever I sit in front of my TV, there's nothing good on! I never knew that the good stuff is only on when I'm not at home or not if front of my TV. Thanks for pointing that out.

Watching a TV series on DVD is infinitely better when I can watch the whole year in a couple weeks rather than watching a few episodes, waiting for the reruns to end, then watching a few more new episodes and the "fall finale", and waiting many more months for a few more new episodes.

The TV season is over when I start watching the show and it ends when I finish watching it. Hollywood and network TV have their seasons, I have mine. That's why I have Netflix and Tivo.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Wilburd said:


> IF OTA "sucks" where you live, that's too bad, but digital OTA reception offers a perfect picture--for free.
> 
> I subscribe to Netflix and own two Tivos and you don't believe it? Big whoop. I think my problem is that, "There's SO much good stuff that's on while you're not in front of the TV and/or not home." That's probably why whenever I sit in front of my TV, there's nothing good on! I never knew that the good stuff is only on when I'm not at home or not if front of my TV. Thanks for pointing that out.


Rooftop antennas are prohibited by the HOA rules here. Given that my OTA VHF and UHF NSTC reception is terrible and it's not terribly likely that I'll get good digital TV reception (no signal or massive dropped frames yielding unwatchable TV).

Most of the major TV stations here are in SF which is about 60 miles from me and I believe many of them are transmitted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutro_Tower.

I didn't realize you had a TiVo. How many season passes do you have? I have 62, although a few of them are for various "flavors" of the news (e.g. weekend national news requires a different SP than the weekday version). There seriously is so much good stuff on TV that there's isn't enough time to watch. Examples for me include: Battlestar Galactica, Modern Marvels, How It's Made, Mail Call, Mythbusters, Biography, Inside the Actors Studio, The Simpsons, E! The True Hollywood Story, Nova, Frontline, Charlie Rose, etc. CNBC recently had some great specials like Big Brother, Big Business, Inside American Airlines: A Week in the Life, and Game On! The Unauthorized History of Video Games. Much of this stuff isn't available via antenna.

I don't watch every ep esp. of the the talk shows or documentaries.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

cwerdna said:


> Rooftop antennas are prohibited by the HOA rules here. Given that my OTA VHF and UHF NSTC reception is terrible and it's not terribly likely that I'll get good digital TV reception (no signal or massive dropped frames yielding unwatchable TV).


You may do well to borrow an antenna and give OTA HD a shot. My analog TV reception is abysmal (lots of interference, basically an unwatchable picture), but I was blown away by the trouble free reception on the digital channels.

Your mileage may vary considerably, but you may be surprised!

Now the OP has me thinking again - I can't live w/o ESPN during the college football season, but I'll bet I can save a lot of money only keeping cable from August - January!


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

cwerdna said:


> Rooftop antennas are prohibited by the HOA rules here.


I have no idea whether you live in a stand-alone home or a condo, but an HOA can't prohibit a rooftop antenna on a house.


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## dolcevita (Jan 1, 2004)

Temptation grows. 

I had pretty much decided not to buy the S3 yet, even if it meant losing the chance to transfer one of my lifetime subscriptions. Just don't have time to hassle with Cablecard installation because my work/travel schedule does not appear to be slowing down this month and too many other things I want/need to spoend money on this month.

But -- being able to use OTA and avoid that hassle. Hmmm. And the ante was just upped because in addition to one of those 12% Best Buy coupons, I just managed to snag an American Express Wish List certificate that'll get me $150 off a $600 or more purchase...all of which brings the price of the S3 down to $550, which is a lot more in impulse purchase range. Darn it - now I have to seriously think about this!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dolcevita said:


> Temptation grows.
> 
> I had pretty much decided not to buy the S3 yet, even if it meant losing the chance to transfer one of my lifetime subscriptions. Just don't have time to hassle with Cablecard installation because my work/travel schedule does not appear to be slowing down this month and too many other things I want/need to spoend money on this month.
> 
> But -- being able to use OTA and avoid that hassle. Hmmm. And the ante was just upped because in addition to one of those 12% Best Buy coupons, I just managed to snag an American Express Wish List certificate that'll get me $150 off a $600 or more purchase...all of which brings the price of the S3 down to $550, which is a lot more in impulse purchase range. Darn it - now I have to seriously think about this!


You won't regret it. I've only got five OTA HD stations that I can receive (ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS and Fox), but most of what I watch is network anyhow (with some SciFi and Comedy Central sprinkled in for good measure). And I have *plenty* HD to watch. And it looks awesome!


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

So envious of you guys. I get great HD OTA, but can't get analog cable (digital only). It always seemed like a great way to go to use Tivo for HD OTA and then a supplemental non-HD source like cable or sat. Still dreaming of the day that Tivo offers video in again.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I would use my S3 if all I had was OTA HD -- that's how much I love it.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Wilburd said:


> I subscribe to Netflix and own two Tivos and you don't believe it? Big whoop. I think my problem is that, "There's SO much good stuff that's on while you're not in front of the TV and/or not home." That's probably why whenever I sit in front of my TV, there's nothing good on! I never knew that the good stuff is only on when I'm not at home or not if front of my TV. Thanks for pointing that out.


I subscribe to Netflix as well and I tell you, it's possible I would part with the TiVo before the Netflix. Watching serial shows via DVD is brilliant, much better than waiting for them to record every week. And, you don't even have to FF comercials.

I have a decent channel lineup with my DirecTV package and my TiVo does run dry sometimes. If I don't spend an hour or so every couple weeks looking for stuff to record, I run out of shows. I think part of the problem is that there aren't a whole lot of serial shows I'm interested in. A lot of shows I like to watch are non-season types like movies and educational so I need to keep my "to do" list populated. I don't always do that. Netflix comes to the rescue for those instances. So, I'm glad I have both TiVo and Netflix. Don't want to part with either.


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## dolcevita (Jan 1, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> You won't regret it. I've only got five OTA HD stations that I can receive (ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS and Fox), but most of what I watch is network anyhow (with some SciFi and Comedy Central sprinkled in for good measure). And I have *plenty* HD to watch. And it looks awesome!


I think everything I watch is network, except for Veronica Mars on CW.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dolcevita said:


> I think everything I watch is network, except for Veronica Mars on CW.


Yeah, I wish we got the CW in HD OTA here....they're saying maybe in late 2007.


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## dbong1021 (Dec 10, 2004)

First awesome discussion here .. I'm very tempted to drop my Digital Cable now and just go down to basic and OTA for HD recordings.

But ..

Can the S3 still do dual tuner recordings when using the OTA antenna? If so, damn, I'm just going to make the switch now!


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

dbong1021 said:


> Can the S3 still do dual tuner recordings when using the OTA antenna? If so, damn, I'm just going to make the switch now!


Definately!


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## dbong1021 (Dec 10, 2004)

Shawn95GT said:


> Definately!


Oh la laaaaa!

Hmm, but now I'm worried about my reception. Outdoor antenna is not an option with me right now.

Am I right in thinking that unless an omni directional antenna can grab all the OTA i want, I'll have to move the antenna around for the weaker channels? And so, if the Tivo tries to record those channels and Im not home, it might record static? argh!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

You can install a second antenna, then join it with the other one. Channel Master has something called a jointenna that supposedly works very well.

Check also this TCF thread.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> You can install a second antenna, then join it with the other one. Channel Master has something called a jointenna that supposedly works very well.


It does. You have to think it out, and it usually takes a couple of weeks to get the special version you order, but it does what it's supposed to.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dbtom said:


> So envious of you guys. I get great HD OTA, but can't get analog cable (digital only).


Highly doubtful. They may call it "lifeline cable" or "basic" (not extended basic) cable. I bet that you can get analog only.

Heck, even if you DO get digital cable, if you just plug the coax to an analog tuner (TV, VCR, Tivo), you'll likely have all of the channels under 100 be in analog anyhow.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Shawn95GT said:


> Ugh - I installed the POS iTunes software on my laptop to check it out.


I don't work on iTunes, but you're probably the first person I've heard call it a POS.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Sorry if I offended - any software that fails to launch 6/10 attempts sucks in my book. Only two of those times did the store actually come up. It was a pain in the rear to use.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Shawn95GT said:


> any software that fails to launch 6/10 attempts sucks in my book. Only two of those times did the store actually come up.


This is the dirty little underbelly secret of Apple software: it simply doesn't work. Millions of people are sitting in front of their computers pretending, afraid to admit they've made a horrible mistake and hoping no one will notice that the screen is blank. 75% of the people walking around with iPods stuck in their ears are shucking & jiving; there is NOTHING coming out of those earphones!


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Shawn95GT said:


> Sorry if I offended - any software that fails to launch 6/10 attempts sucks in my book. Only two of those times did the store actually come up. It was a pain in the rear to use.


I don't work for Apple but it works fine for me on my PCs (I'm a PC guy) and Macs. I can't think of any times its failed to launch and the only times the store hasn't worked is when I've had net connectivity probs.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

LoL Redux

Well like I said - no Macs here as much I would like to pick one up.

I installed iTunes, it launched and the store wouldn't come up. I exit the program and launch agian to see if store will come up... nothing happens. the process is running, it just won't bring up the app. I guess it's my fault for not owning a Mac.

Eventually I got it to come up and the store came up - cool. I'd still have to trans-code the downloaded file into something Tivo friendly.

Probably about the time Tivo get Tivo Desktop for Mac fully functional they'll tie in the iTunes library to Tivo Desktop directly....


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

Another plus for OTA is the fact that for some of us, after the analog shut-off, there may be digital stations from distant markets that we are then able to get. For me in Sacramento, I can get several San Francisco channels, but some of the digital channels have a conflict with a local analog Sacramento channel.

For those of you in the mode of "I would dump my content provider and go with just OTA if only I could get xyz channel." I am wondering if this is the niche that the digital carrier USDTV (a dirty word around here, I know) is trying to fill. Their cost appears to be $20/month, but I do not see mention of a DVR on their site. Also, the service is only available in 4 cities. I wonder if the S3 could be made to work with that service.


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## dbong1021 (Dec 10, 2004)

dbong1021 said:


> Can the S3 still do dual tuner recordings when using the OTA antenna? If so, damn, I'm just going to make the switch now!


Going back to the DT ability of S3 using OTA signals. One antenna plugged into the S3 can do DT recording? or will I need a second antenna ?

I'm used to the cable world where you do in fact need to split the cable signal into two in order to record 2 channels.

Thanks for any info in advance!


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Shawn95GT said:


> I installed iTunes, it launched and the store wouldn't come up. I exit the program and launch agian to see if store will come up... nothing happens. the process is running, it just won't bring up the app. I guess it's my fault for not owning a Mac.


I don't know how diligent you are about keeping the thing clean, especially keeping the registry repaired. I rarely have any problems on Windows boxes unless I let things slide. Of course, some of the security & repair programs cause their own interference and damage, so you have to continually watch out for that and clean up after them (and stop using specific ones once you've pinned it down that they are problematic).

I keep one of our Windows machines completely insulated, never any internet contact, and copy only known clean stuff over. This is our test case for trouble-shooting. Plus we can image that machine and copy it over to a fully-connected machine at any point and know we are, for the moment, totally clean. For the most part that machine runs perfectly, all the time, with very little maintenance other than a periodic registry repair.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

dbong1021 said:


> Going back to the DT ability of S3 using OTA signals. One antenna plugged into the S3 can do DT recording? or will I need a second antenna ?
> 
> I'm used to the cable world where you do in fact need to split the cable signal into two in order to record 2 channels.
> 
> Thanks for any info in advance!


The S3 splits the signal internally; you just need to get the signal TO the unit, and it takes care of the rest


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

chris_h said:


> I am wondering if this is the niche that the digital carrier USDTV (a dirty word around here, I know) is trying to fill.


Just don't call it Pay OTA. OMG- OTA is so- you know like- "been there done that".

Call it wireless broadband video.

For an S3, the decrypt would have to be integrated. It's really hard to guess what form of encryption they are using on their signal. I would guess Tivo's hardware could handle it, but it would be a major project and I doubt that USDTV has the cash to pay for the development for a niche market of a niche market.

But for an S2, it would be no sweat to control the USDTV box. It's just another STB. It would be best that the USDTV box outputs unencrypted ATSC so you can do an ATSC dual tuner, but I'll bet they don't have a box like that.

So just wondering since I have been out of touch so long- is the deadline still March 1, 2007 for the cutoff on NTSC S2s?


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

iTunes does have some issues. For example, unless you have puny hard drives, your video collection on an iPod is much smaller than what you have on your disk. So naturally you have to manually sync otherwise iTunes will very unhelpfully delete your archived video. Unhappy Mac face.

So ok no problem, you just select all and drag drop to the iPod. 

Just try it on Windows. You have a cannot drop icon for about 2 minutes while you are hovering over the iPod. This is on a dual core fast processor too. Doing a computationally intensive task during a UI operation is just plain sloppy thinking.

Plus it really doesn't care about stuff that doesn't leverage Apple products- Eg- you can't manipulate the internal ID3 tags stored within MP3s, nor do you have features based on sophisticated database operations like you could on MusicMatch.

It really is an everyman's library- much better than most but not all others. There are areas for improvement in the design and implementation (at least on the windows side).


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## Gypsy (Dec 9, 2006)

snathanb said:


> I dumped everything for OTA HD nearly 2 years ago.


What is OTA?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gypsy said:


> What is OTA?


Over The Air -- in contrast to getting your TV from cable or satellite. It's the old-fashioned way


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Gypsy said:


> What is OTA?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_television


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## Gypsy (Dec 9, 2006)

Muchas gracias, both of you. 

I've been reading threads for simply hours now, trying to find a reference to whether a jump drive can be plugged into a Tivo usb port, whether movies or shows can be transported to the computer for burning that way. No success as yet, but at least now I know what the heck OTA means when I see it! heh


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

OTA was first and could be considered "old fashioned", but think about all the popular new technology that relies on OTA connectivity, cell phones, wireless internet, etc. OTA is alive and well and with the digital upgrade, OTA TV will be right up there with the rest of them.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> OTA was first and could be considered "old fashioned", but think about all the popular new technology that relies on OTA connectivity, cell phones, wireless internet, etc. OTA is alive and well and with the digital upgrade, OTA TV will be right up there with the rest of them.


Supplemented by iTunes, Netflix, etc. for non-OTA material, this is a very good and inexpensive way to go.


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## Richly917 (Dec 9, 2006)

HD_Dude said:


> It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!
> 
> The S3 and Cable:
> 
> ...


I thought I was the only one that was about to throw in the towel with HD satellite.
Mr. Murdock really screwed up an emerging technology with the HR20. I think he used some of his window washers and parking lot attendants to write the software for it.
I love my R10 Tivo and have an HR10 ordered knowing it will not get HD for much longer. I want the use of the HDMI port and the possible use of the OTA inputs. I'm satisfied with SD until (or if) DTV returns to Tivo. This will probably not happen so my new Sony 60" LCD will be showing me SD for a long time.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> DO IT....C'MON, MAN, DO IT!!!! YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!!


I seem to be going in that direction. I bought a better antenna and set it up this weekend -- am getting all the network and local stations with strong signals now with no antenna adjustments. Now to find some DSL...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

So i'm curious how the ota only series 3 peeps are doing.

Everything working ok, i'm about to go for it.

-smak-


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm not OTA-only, but I am using an antenna for local stations. 

I got an antenna, and it was doing "okay" last night.. I moved it, and it's hanging in the window now, and with a little luck I won't have to move it again


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

I setup my mother's S3 this weekend OTA only. She lives in a single level home about 26 miles from the towers. I used the antenna from an ATI HDTV Wonder card:









pic from Tom's Hardware review of the ATI HDTV Wonder card

She gets signal strengths in the 80s to mid 90's with this antenna sitting on top of her entertainment center.

It's a nice step up from the S2 / ATSC tuner I had setup for her earlier. 2 tuners, can see/tune/record all the avaialble channels (not just the ones Dish carries), and real HD picture. She's happy.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

smak said:


> So i'm curious how the ota only series 3 peeps are doing.
> 
> Everything working ok, i'm about to go for it.
> 
> -smak-


OTA is great on the S3!!


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## Wilburd (Nov 13, 2006)

smak said:


> So i'm curious how the ota only series 3 peeps are doing.
> 
> Everything working ok, i'm about to go for it.
> 
> -smak-


The biggest impediments to receiving decent OTA signals are distance and terrain. In my area, I can receive signals from three distinct TV markets with the farthest transmitting antennas about 60 miles away. The transmitting antennas that are closest to me (about 40 miles) are also situated on the first mountain in a chain of mountains that block everything. While I easily get those signals, people on the opposite side of those transmiting antennas, even though they may live closer, have a heck of time getting reception because of the terrain.

With my 15 year old outside antenna and rotor, I can easily get over 60 channels on OTA and for most, I don't even have to rotate the antenna. Inside, on my PC and an old TV (both have Silver Sensor antennas on a second floor), I can only get five digital channels on my PC tuner and eight analog channels on the TV.

The analog picture quality varies from really good to terrible, but for the most part, the digital channels have a great picture. The few that are on the fringe do break up and go "chunky" as the signal strength varies up and down.

The S3 dual tuners are much more sensitive than the digital tuner in my three year old HD TV and I frequently record on both while watching a third show at the same time. No problems at all.

I was using a home theatre PC as my OTA DVR and compared to the S3 for ease of use, reception, quality, reliability, and overall usability, it was nothing more than a PC with Windows Media Center Edition that didn't work very well at all. When I added a digital tuner to my own PC, I didn't even consider Media Center and went with Beyond TV, which works extremely well with WinXP Pro.

OTA with an S3 should be problem free and reliable. Get a Netflix subcription to watch movies and TV shows, and a DSL line to watch/read the news, magazines, and everything else.


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## HD_Dude (Sep 11, 2006)

Shawn95GT said:


> I setup my mother's S3 this weekend...She's happy.


Dude, you are excellent.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

smak said:


> So i'm curious how the ota only series 3 peeps are doing.
> 
> Everything working ok, i'm about to go for it.
> 
> -smak-


I have to agree with everyone here...OTA HD with the S3 is very good. I went from a Sammy SIR-T151 HD terrestrial tuner to a Sony DHG (for a few months) then to the S3. The S3 puts them both to shame -- both in tuner sensitivity and PQ. With the Sammy and the Sony, the way my digital towers are located forced me to use a rotor with my outside UHF antenna (even though all the stations were within 20 miles -- they were just in different locations). But, since I've been using the S3 (actually it's my S3's three month birthday today!!! :up: :up: :up: ), I've NEVER had to re-orient the antenna; the tuner is THAT good.


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## kenez (Jan 17, 2004)

Hi. I just received a Series 3 as a gift. Currently I have a Series 2 connected to my HDTV for the basic cable non-HD channels and I have a ATSC antenna connected to the TV for digital OTA channels including HD broadcasts. I have to switch back and forth between the two programing sources.

Before I make the leap to digital cable and cable cards I was wondering how the Series 3 would work if I hooked it up basically the same way as my current set-up. Would I select cable or antenna as my programing source? According to the Series 3 FAQ page the two should work together seamlessly but other posts lead me to believe that the OTA digital channels will not be recognized in the program guide.

From the FAQ:

Are the antenna and cable channels fully integrated in the guide?
Yes. The channels from both sources are fully integrated in the guide. Using the S3 with both sources is a seamless experience.

I haven't opened the Series 3 box yet or activated service. I wanted to get a better handle on set-up issues first. Has any one else tried the above mentioned set-up? What was your experience? Thanks!


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Kenez - I have one of mine setup just like that - works PERFECT. The channels show up just like they would on your TV with guide data etc.

The problem others have described is when you are getting your HD locals from the cable company without cable cards. You can watch them, but you won't get guide data for the 'in the clear' QAM channels. Since you have an antenna, this won't be a problem.


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## kenez (Jan 17, 2004)

Shawn-Thanks. I think I will try that first before going the cable card route. Did the S3 recognize the dual programing sources automatically or, if not, what did you specify when it asked for the input source? Thanks. Ken


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

It asks in guided setup (cable + Antenna).


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

That sounds like a really good way to go, that is basic cable + antenna (no cable cards). It eliminates the potential cable card issues and provides a medium for HD programming. It's definitely something to consider. It's cheaper, more reliable, and aside from setting up the antenna, it's hassle free. Although, without cable cards, I may not be able to receive some of the channels I want. Have to think about that.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> That sounds like a really good way to go, that is basic cable + antenna (no cable cards). It eliminates the potential cable card issues and provides a medium for HD programming. It's definitely something to consider. It's cheaper, more reliable, and aside from setting up the antenna, it's hassle free. Although, without cable cards, I may not be able to receive some of the channels I want. Have to think about that.


That's exactly my setup, and I couldn't be happier. Most of the HD I watch is OTA networks anyhow...I don't have the time to watch everything else I might record off cable HD (ESPN, Discovery, etc.).


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

The really cool thing about the way the TiVo handles it is, once you've set up your channel lineup for both cable and antenna, they all show up in one mega channel list. You don't have to switch inputs or try to remember what channel is where.

Except you have to type the decimal-like numbers for digital channels on the antenna. Oh well ;-) I got my antenna going last week, and so far it's working well (though I am thinking about upgrading antennas...)


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## seatype (Nov 2, 2008)

If I buy an S3 and go OTA only, do I still have to pay the $12/mth TIVO subscribtion?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

seatype said:


> If I buy an S3 and go OTA only, do I still have to pay the $12/mth TIVO subscribtion?


yes


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## seatype (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanks


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## klyde (Feb 3, 2002)

I have 2 HD Tivos that I use only for OTA recording, I also subscribed to The Dish HD package when they offered it some months ago. I get all the HD stations for $35 per month all included taxes. WITH FREE GUIDE. Scifi, HGTV, TLC, Science, Discovery, etc. Now the locals are starting to broadcast old TV on their 2nd channels. Now I'm looking to hook my laptop up to my new 67" TV so I can watch web broadcasts on the TV. That's all we need.

My gripe is I'm paying. $18 per month just to get the Tivo guide on both Tivos after $300 each to buy them. I really dont own anything except a monthly guide bill. I need to find a way to record OTA with a guide without Tivo and I would dump them.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

klyde said:


> My gripe is I'm paying. $18 per month just to get the Tivo guide on both Tivos after $300 each to buy them.
> I really dont own anything except a monthly guide bill. I need to find a way to record OTA with a guide without Tivo and I would dump them.


You could get a DTV PAL DVR. OTA only with no fee.
You could get a tuner card for your computer, and use DVR package or MCE for that


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

classicsat said:


> You could get a DTV PAL DVR. OTA only with no fee.
> You could get a tuner card for your computer, and use DVR package or MCE for that


Or buy lifetime subs for the TiVos, which brings the cost in line with no-sub offerings.


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## skipw (Feb 9, 2006)

I ordered my DTVPAL DVR last week. No monthly fee. And so far I've been hearing a lot of good reviews. I'll be dumping DirectTV once I get everything up and running. I'll miss some of the programing (DIY channels, GOLF Channel, SciFi, ....) but a lot of this can be found on the internet for free. So my next investment will be in finding something to download those shows and be able to watch them on my TV. With the DVR, a few digital converter boxes and a good antenna, it will pay for itself in 6 months.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

HD_Dude said:


> It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!


One's mileage certainly varies. Of course it is also a matter of perspective, as you very properly pointed out. That said:



HD_Dude said:


> Cablecard installation


While definitely sometimes a hassle, it's only required once per device. OF course, in my case, I've had to go through it 5 times. Looking back, the installation has definitely gotten easier over time. The installers better know what they are doing, and there is much less of a "fear" factor at coming across something unfamilar that may not work instantly as expected. I certainly would not want to go through it every day.



HD_Dude said:


> cablecard failures


Mileage definitely varies. Anything can fail, of course, including your TV. I did go through quite a few DOA CableCards during two of the five installation ordeals, but once in and functional, none of the five CableCards here in my house have failed. The oldest is 4 years old, the youngest 1 - 1/2.



HD_Dude said:


> cable signal strength issues


Variable, or static? Once again, a static signal strength issue, caused by topology issues, only needs to be addressed once, alleviating whatever anomalies exist that prevent the delivery of optimal signals. Variable signal quality issues are of course the result of failures in the CATV system. These also happen, but the situation is far, far better than that faced by the CATV subscriber in the 1970s and 1980s. Cable cascades sometimes exceeded 30 amplifiers, 20 miles of aluminum coax plant, and up to a dozen or more power realms. Not only were there dozens of single points of failure, but the 500+ dB stretch of plant was highly susceptible to ingress from sheath or connector failure, wind, rain, temperature variations, and component aging. Today the cascades are shortened to less than 5 amplifiers and maybe 80 dB of plant - usually much less. The customer now is usually serviced by only 1 power realm. Noise and distortion are greatly reduced, and the use of digital carriers has all but eliminated signal artifacts. Of course it's not perfect, but it's been well over 2 years since I have suffered any signal impairments.



HD_Dude said:


> poor customer service at the cable companies


Yeah. What can I say? It sucks. Poor customer service has become the norm in American industry.



HD_Dude said:


> expensive -- yet needless -- truck rolls


Well, I've never had to pay. There's something to be said for getting irate with the CSR when they want to charge you for a truck roll. The trick is, let yourself get angry and aggressive, but never abusive. Let them know just how steamed you are (or want them to believe you are), but don't attack them personally.



HD_Dude said:


> pixelization problems, lost audio


I've never had those to any significant extent, and there's nothing to prevent similar problems OTA. Indeed, such artifacts most frequently originate at the source, so OTA is only somewhat better than CATV in that respect.



HD_Dude said:


> lost channels


Interestingly enough, TNTHD has been out here for the last couple of weeks. Other than that, I haven't had very many such problems, at all.



HD_Dude said:


> having to lie to cable companies about having an S3 just so they'll come to put cablecards in it, non-mapping tuners, and on and on and on.


I've never had any of that.



HD_Dude said:


> I know that may, many people here enjoy the cerebral challenge all this presents.


Well, I don't like failures. I do certainly enjoy an engineering challenge, but I'm very glad that my Tivos for the most part have only required ordinary maintenance. Mostly, they just sit and do their thing, 24 / 7.



HD_Dude said:


> And fortunately, the people here are very, very helpful in trying to solve problems for their fellow viewers. That's the best thing of all.


Yeah, it's pretty neat. I've enjoyed greatly being on both sides of the fence.



HD_Dude said:


> But...am I the only one who feels the slow, steady pull of OTA HD?


I'm sure you are not the only one. If there were anything in the least worth watching OTA (other than PBS), and if it were commercial free, I might consider setting up an antenna. Since I avoid network television like the plague, and since HDNet, HDNet Movies, HD Theater, HBO, Starz, A&E, Animal Planet, National Geographic, Turner Classic Movies, and several others are not available OTA, the answer is, "No, I don't feel any urge to drop Cable." I'm not thrilled with the cost, of course, but it's a tiny fraction of what I am forced to pay for the garbage which passes for programming on network television, whether I watch it or not.



HD_Dude said:


> Right now I have an OTA UHF antenna, and it brings in a sparking HD picture, vibrant 5.1 sound, and, whether via S3, the Sony's or just through my 40" Sony Bravia w/dolby digital out to the amp...the experience is thrilling!


There's no question the HD experience is amazing, and I all but purr like a kitten every time I sit to watch something like Planet Earth or a high quality remastering of a classic movie, but while the presentation is something, content is King.



HD_Dude said:


> Oh yeah...programming. That's the one flaw in my plan. But what are your thoughts? Would the HUGE reduction in programming be worth it, for the HUGE reduction in hassles?


Well, like I said, I really have very few hassles. Not none, of course, but few. Recently I certainly have had far more problems with workstations and servers in my house than I have ever had with the Tivos. Really, the main gripe I have, and it's comparatively minor, is the cost.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Redux said:


> This is the dirty little underbelly secret of Apple software: it simply doesn't work. Millions of people are sitting in front of their computers pretending, afraid to admit they've made a horrible mistake and hoping no one will notice that the screen is blank. 75% of the people walking around with iPods stuck in their ears are shucking & jiving; there is NOTHING coming out of those earphones!


I can absolutely verify that my IPod has never worked, not even once. I suppose I should be really angry, but I think it may have something to do with the fact I don't have an IPod.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

I had this discussion with my wife a couple months back. We concluded that losing Discovery and History channels were a bummer, but most of what we watch is available OTA. I was including Sci-Fi, but with Atlantis ending, there's not really anything I'm all that interested in. Sanctuary is OK, but I haven't been that into it. 

We decided that we would save money by buying the seasons of shows we couldn't get OTA on DVD later, or renting. Even adding in a few iTunes purchases, it still works out in our favor. We still have enough TV that it's hard to keep up with it all, so we don't really think we're losing anything important. 

Besides, if we get really desperate, the neighbors are family and they have cable and a DVD burner.  So far, we haven't needed it. 

If you're reasonably close, within about 30 miles IIRC, I'm using a DB4 antenna and it works great. I did a rooftop install and it's getting 100% on most of the channels. The Silver Sensor worked reasonably well, but had a few dropouts. It was just annoying enough to replace. This antenna will mount to a satellite dish mount, and we had a spare one, so up it went. I even had coax up there to connect it to.


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## jim _h (Nov 25, 2006)

I just noticed this interesting thread. We've never had cable, and I'm now convinced we never will. Cable has had its day and while there are good shows on cable, there's plenty of good stuff available through other channels. 

For about 30 years now, cable has just tried to charge too much, and refused to un-bundle. So be it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Yep, when cable cos start offering channels ala carte, then we'll talk.


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## Knave (Aug 15, 2006)

kb7sei said:


> I had this discussion with my wife a couple months back. We concluded that losing Discovery and History channels were a bummer, but most of what we watch is available OTA. I was including Sci-Fi, but with Atlantis ending, there's not really anything I'm all that interested in. Sanctuary is OK, but I haven't been that into it.
> 
> We decided that we would save money by buying the seasons of shows we couldn't get OTA on DVD later, or renting. Even adding in a few iTunes purchases, it still works out in our favor. We still have enough TV that it's hard to keep up with it all, so we don't really think we're losing anything important.
> 
> ...


I *completely* agree with you about dropping cable. SciFi is one channel that I'll miss too (despite their horribly crappy made-for-SciFi movies!), but don't forget about Netflix. For $9 per month you can get all those shows you're missing + any movies you want to watch.


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## chris401 (Dec 15, 2008)

Totally agree on OTA only; been that way for me since purchasing a Series 2 in 2003. However, more curious to me is . . . did this thread really start in Dec 2006 and die then only to be restarted this week? Talk about legs


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

kb7sei said:


> I had this discussion with my wife a couple months back. We concluded that losing Discovery and History channels were a bummer, but most of what we watch is available OTA. I was including Sci-Fi, but with Atlantis ending, there's not really anything I'm all that interested in. Sanctuary is OK, but I haven't been that into it.


I've recorded 30 HD movies and 20 series episodes (Wings, Star Trek, Frasier, and Night Court) in the last 3 days. All the movies except 1 Bogart film are HD. All the series except Night Court are HD.



kb7sei said:


> We decided that we would save money by buying the seasons of shows we couldn't get OTA on DVD later, or renting.


Renting would cost a fortune, and it's a major pain. DVDs are not HD.



kb7sei said:


> Even adding in a few iTunes purchases, it still works out in our favor. We still have enough TV that it's hard to keep up with it all, so we don't really think we're losing anything important.


"Keeping up" is not the issue. The programs are stored on the server so we can retreive them whenever we want, as often as we want. I do have a couple of hundred DVDs, but we hardly ever watch them any longer. Of course, many of them I now have in HD on the server.



kb7sei said:


> Besides, if we get really desperate, the neighbors are family and they have cable and a DVD burner.  So far, we haven't needed it.


Again, not HD. I am the one who said content is King, and it is true, but given a choice between HD and SD, I'll definitely take HD.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

steve614 said:


> Yep, when cable cos start offering channels ala carte, then we'll talk.


A lot of people think that way, and I am all for having the choice, but I think most people will find they won't save any money with a la carte. That said, if I could save money by cutting out all the network channels, the sports channels, most of the commercial bearing channels, and all but 2 or 3 news channels, I certainly would.


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I went OTA also. I just recorded about 100hours of kids shows before dropping cable so the tots are set. I only really miss espn, the discoveries and sci-fi, but I just upload to the tivo anything I need to see. The middle third of nascar season is gonna be tough though!


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

> I've recorded 30 HD movies and 20 series episodes (Wings, Star Trek, Frasier, and Night Court) in the last 3 days. All the movies except 1 Bogart film are HD. All the series except Night Court are HD.
> 
> Renting would cost a fortune, and it's a major pain. DVDs are not HD.


Netflix, $9/mo. Not a big deal. Blu-Ray is available and I own a PS3 to play them should I want HD. I've seen all those shows and am not interested in watching them again. HD or not. All the current stuff I watch on the big networks is available in OTA HD. There is very little else I'm interested in.



> "Keeping up" is not the issue. The programs are stored on the server so we can retreive them whenever we want, as often as we want. I do have a couple of hundred DVDs, but we hardly ever watch them any longer. Of course, many of them I now have in HD on the server.


Oh, I keep a fileserver going with all the stuff I want to watch on it. 2TB currently. I need to upgrade.  OTA Recordings, HD rips from Blu-Ray discs, etc..



> Again, not HD. I am the one who said content is King, and it is true, but given a choice between HD and SD, I'll definitely take HD.


I choose HD over SD when it's available. But I have to evaluate if the few shows I can't get in HD are worth the $80/mo+ cost. In my case, the answer is no, it's not. I don't claim my way is the best way, or right for everyone. Just that it works for me.

If I get really hard up, there's always bittorrent I suppose.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's one slant I have't seen anyone discuss in this thread (unless I totally missed it) - What about a Home Theater PC? I've got one set up with six USB ATSC tuners for receiving OTA HD locals. Aside from the initial hardware costs, I pay absolutely nothing for guide data and zero monthly fees. I have two UHF antennas on my roof pointed in opposite directions and they're joined with a plain old UHF/VHF splitter/combiner. Since the antennas are directional and are about 180 degrees apart there is no interference between any of the channels. As such, I don't need some fancy or expensive device for combining the signals. I get about 14 OTA HD locals in my area. DirecTV only offers 4 mpeg4 locals, which is one of the reasons I dumped them and went with an HTPC. The HD picture quality sold me on FIOS and now they have just about as many HD channels as DirecTV.

I have the capability of recording up to six different channels simultaneously while playing back a 7th pre-recorded program. I have actually seen six programs in the BeyondTV program list with the record indicator on at the same time so I know it works. The picture quality is fantastic and every bit as good as what I can get via FIOS, if not better. I also have two S3 Tivos for recording some of the programs available on the cable channels (like Damages, Saving Grace, The Closer, Rescue Me, Leverage, In Plain Sight, Burn Notice, etc.). The BeyondTV DVR software gives me full DVR functionality with season pass capability and a very intuitive UI. Since nothing is encrypted I can easily transfer shows to my main PC and create DVDs or anything else I choose.

I also belong to NetFlix so I can rent Blu-Ray versions of popular movies and TV shows I may have missed. I can rip the BD movies to my server and play them back through my HTPC while streaming them over my home network. The audio and video of Blu-Ray is absolutely stunning and should definitely be seen to be appreciated.

There are other capabilities of an HTPC that I have not yet explored. SageTV (another DVR app with media center features) can be used with media extenders for streaming videos to other rooms. You can also set up media libraries with cover art for DVDs and CDs and use the media center functions to play them back.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's one slant I have't seen anyone discuss in this thread (unless I totally missed it) - What about a Home Theater PC?


I hadn't mentioned it directly, but that's what I'm doing. I'm using MythTV here and it works great for us. The extra features above what we had before have been fun to explore.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Ditto. If I just wanted to record OTA there's no way I'd pay Tivo for the privilege because a Myth box is all I would need. 
But I like all the sports on cable, so I don't do OTA. I have a Myth box for clear QAM cable channels and a lot of other video stuff (and a Tivo HD for all the encrypted channels in my sub).


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's one slant I have't seen anyone discuss in this thread (unless I totally missed it) - What about a Home Theater PC? I've got one set up with six USB ATSC tuners for receiving OTA HD locals.


That is my plan, if I can adequately and reliably receive the nearest digital stations, which are ~125-150 miles away from me over the lake and elsewhere.


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## forum junkie (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm wanting to go OTA only but being on the signal fringe I need a 6th gen ATSC tuner. There doesn't seem to be any tech support from TIVO unless your already a customer. Before spending my money I need to know what gen. tuner is used in th HD TIVO. Can anyone here enlighten my on this ? Thank You


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

classicsat said:


> That is my plan, if I can adequately and reliably receive the nearest digital stations, which are ~125-150 miles away from me over the lake and elsewhere.


That's a pretty long shot, you're going to need a good antenna.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

forum junkie said:


> I'm wanting to go OTA only but being on the signal fringe I need a 6th gen ATSC tuner. There doesn't seem to be any tech support from TIVO unless your already a customer. Before spending my money I need to know what gen. tuner is used in th HD TIVO. Can anyone here enlighten my on this ? Thank You


I don't know if anyone actually publishes that. I doubt many people ask about it. The only thing I can think of is to send some email and ask. I'd be willing to bet you'll get better results from the right antenna than a particular tuner though.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

kb7sei said:


> That's a pretty long shot, you're going to need a good antenna.


I got some stations last fall when the weather was warm and conditions were ideal for inversion, which a basic bowtie antenna.


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## Wegg (Mar 5, 2007)

OTA HD is all I have ever had with my Series 3. Shows like Battlestar Galactica, Burn Notice, Closer etc. can all be purchased on Amazon. Even with subscribing to all those shows I still save over $400 a year vs. Cable. So many great shows on the main networks and access to the cable shows through Video on Demand make it an easy choice.


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## Rodwalls (Jan 12, 2009)

I went totally OTA as of Saturday. I put up an antenna and receive all local stations, now I just got to learn a whole new batch of shows. I am glad I did this but plan to get anther antenna so I can pull in some channels that are about 70 miles away, I am going to also check into a preamp.Let us know what you decide? The Series 3 HD works great and the HD looks alot better than Dish, well at least to me it does. Good Luck!


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

Rodwalls said:


> I went totally OTA as of Saturday. I put up an antenna and receive all local stations, now I just got to learn a whole new batch of shows. I am glad I did this but plan to get anther antenna so I can pull in some channels that are about 70 miles away, I am going to also check into a preamp.Let us know what you decide? The Series 3 HD works great and the HD looks alot better than Dish, well at least to me it does. Good Luck!


If you get a preamp, spend some money and get a good one. Cheap ones cause more problems than they solve. IMO, you're better off spending the money on a good antenna, but preamps have their place.


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## garymey (Jan 20, 2009)

I have used a TIVO series 2 with an OTA for the Oscar show parties for the past two years. We stop during commercials for costume contests, music, etc and then can start without missing any of the show. We use a video projectors.

When the switch happens in Feb, what problems will we face. Is there a certain converter box we should get?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

TiVo has a compatible list. 

The most favorite convertor around here is the Insigina/Zenith models from BestBuy.


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## MeStinkBAD (Jul 16, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's one slant I have't seen anyone discuss in this thread (unless I totally missed it) - What about a Home Theater PC? I've got one set up with six USB ATSC tuners for receiving OTA HD locals. Aside from the initial hardware costs, I pay absolutely nothing for guide data and zero monthly fees. I have two UHF antennas on my roof pointed in opposite directions and they're joined with a plain old UHF/VHF splitter/combiner. Since the antennas are directional and are about 180 degrees apart there is no interference between any of the channels. As such, I don't need some fancy or expensive device for combining the signals. I get about 14 OTA HD locals in my area. DirecTV only offers 4 mpeg4 locals, which is one of the reasons I dumped them and went with an HTPC. The HD picture quality sold me on FIOS and now they have just about as many HD channels as DirecTV.
> 
> I have the capability of recording up to six different channels simultaneously while playing back a 7th pre-recorded program. I have actually seen six programs in the BeyondTV program list with the record indicator on at the same time so I know it works. The picture quality is fantastic and every bit as good as what I can get via FIOS, if not better. I also have two S3 Tivos for recording some of the programs available on the cable channels (like Damages, Saving Grace, The Closer, Rescue Me, Leverage, In Plain Sight, Burn Notice, etc.). The BeyondTV DVR software gives me full DVR functionality with season pass capability and a very intuitive UI. Since nothing is encrypted I can easily transfer shows to my main PC and create DVDs or anything else I choose.
> 
> ...


May I devert your attention to the AppleTV! And iTunes. While yes maybe 6 tuners is impressive. But since you can't use it with anything but OTA digital or analog cable... do you really think you are going to need all six tuners?

I am just curious... are you going to set this HTPC up, connecting it to your home theater and use it like you would the TiVo? Or is it going to set at a desk like a typical desktop PC?


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## Intravino (Nov 28, 2008)

kb7sei said:


> If you get a preamp, spend some money and get a good one. Cheap ones cause more problems than they solve. IMO, you're better off spending the money on a good antenna, but preamps have their place.


Check out this: hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html antenna at HDTV Primer. This is probably the best UHF antenna out there but production has moved to China and the new model is not as good.

The Channel Master 4221 is pretty good also ( it is a 4228 cut in half ). Other manufacturers that are good are Delhi and Winegard.

For preamp, the Channel master CM7777 is very good for deep fringe areas maybe too powerful for city.

A good place to start also is:digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=81


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Intravino said:


> Check out this: hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html antenna at HDTV Primer. This is probably the best UHF antenna out there but production has moved to China and the new model is not as good.
> 
> The Channel Master 4221 is pretty good also ( it is a 4228 cut in half ). Other manufacturers that are good are Delhi and Winegard.
> 
> ...


I just started using Antennas Direct ClearStream 2. It does a better job then the db2 antenna i was using


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

MeStinkBAD said:


> May I devert your attention to the AppleTV! And iTunes. While yes maybe 6 tuners is impressive. But since you can't use it with anything but OTA digital or analog cable... do you really think you are going to need all six tuners?
> 
> I am just curious... are you going to set this HTPC up, connecting it to your home theater and use it like you would the TiVo? Or is it going to set at a desk like a typical desktop PC?


Digital cable works, encrypted cable doesn't. Many cable providers are providing "clear QAM" signals that devices like the HDHomeRun can decode. And new devices allow recording of component video from cable and satellite boxes. But that's not what we're talking about in the OTA only thread I suppose. 

Most people with an HTPC have an IR receiver connected so you can navigate just like a TiVo or other set top box. It's not hard to do. I have two of them connected like this. One using a USB IR receiver that I built, one using the HDHomeRun IR receiver. Works great.


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## cl8855 (Jan 2, 2009)

Yep, I do the same thing now that I moved to a new house, just use my TIVO HD and OTA + netflix subscription.
Get all the movies and shows I want to watch for a price that works for me.


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## satrad (Mar 27, 2006)

I just converted from DirectTV to OTA. I checked what channels were being recorded and found that most if not all the channels recorded were offered OTA. 

S1 Tivo, Lifetime subscription, Clearstream4 Antenna, Digital Stream Dxt9950. Set the Tivo feed to satellite box, Hughes, 00137 fast and it all works GREAT!!! 

Channels are all in Denver about 65 mi away. 

I had the Apex Dt250 converter box and the video was very poor. I will try the Channel Master 7700 tomorrow and compair to the DS 9950.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

MeStinkBAD said:


> May I devert your attention to the AppleTV! And iTunes. While yes maybe 6 tuners is impressive. But since you can't use it with anything but OTA digital or analog cable... do you really think you are going to need all six tuners?
> 
> I am just curious... are you going to set this HTPC up, connecting it to your home theater and use it like you would the TiVo? Or is it going to set at a desk like a typical desktop PC?


I have zero interest in AppleTV or iTunes. And yes, I actually use all six tuners. I set up all of my recordings so that they are padded at the beginning and end of each program to make sure I don't miss anything due to errors in the program guide. I have six local OTA network affiliates in HD (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, PBS, and The CW) so six tuners allows me to record from all six networks simultaneously if the need ever arises. FWIW, I have actually witnessed all six tuners being used at the same time so the need has been verified. The majority of my TV viewing is from OTA HD locals so I tend to use the HTPC more than my Tivos.

I have had this HTPC up and running for about two years now. It integrates perfectly into my home theater system just like my two S3 Tivos. In fact, the HTPC and Tivos are the only components I have in the system at the moment. The ability to stream videos from my unRAID server negates the need for a standalone DVD or Blu-Ray player. I have other PCs for surfing the web and other chores, but I have a wireless keyboard and mouse that would allow me to use the HTPC just like any other desktop. My universal remote controls the HTPC and a number of applications as well as the two Tivos so I rarely require the use of the mouse or keyboard.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

HD_Dude said:


> It's occurring to me more and more that all this stuff is so much work!
> 
> The S3 and Cable:
> 
> ...


FWIW, I am transitioning to OTA and Internet via TiVo, supplemented by Netflix *DVD* subscription, ditching cable altogether. Right now I'm renting a condo, so I'm using Radio Shack model 15-2186 for an antenna - works SPECTACULARLY for an indoor. But it's primarily a UHF design - unfortunately my local CBS affiliate broadcasts its HD on VHF, so I still have to put up with Comcast - until I buy a house (soon), at which point I'll have proper outdoor antennas for both UHF and VHF. But in the meantime, I must say that ALL of my OTHER local digital and HD broadcast stations come in CRYSTAL CLEAR - and I *swear* the picture is BETTER than it is on cable!


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> DVDs are not HD.


- They ARE if they're Blu-Ray, which Netflix is now carrying. And, in the not-too-distant future, mass-market Blu-Ray dvd recorders will be available.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

kb7sei said:


> I don't know if anyone actually publishes that. I doubt many people ask about it. The only thing I can think of is to send some email and ask. I'd be willing to bet you'll get better results from the right antenna than a particular tuner though.


- I have been very curious about this very same issue; so far have not found a source that rates the quality of ATSC tuners, whether in sets, dvrs, or stand-alones. Anyone out there found a source for such info?


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

kb7sei said:


> I hadn't mentioned it directly, but that's what I'm doing. I'm using MythTV here and it works great for us. The extra features above what we had before have been fun to explore.


- When the time comes and my TiVo 3-yr subscription expires, unless TiVo offers some pretty major improvements to their PRIMARY function, I may very well go with a Myth-based system.


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## gonefishin (Dec 29, 2007)

I got rid of cable a little more than a year ago. I couldn't be happier! When I had cable I started to pay a bit of attention to our DVR habits. During the day we really wouldn't watch much (if any) Tv because we were chasing around three young children. But when it came to watch a couple of shows at night it was always one of the major networks or one of the PBS channels. I got to thinking that I could save a good deal of money and still watch most of the shows that I did with cable.

Today, I couldn't be happier with OTA HD/D. I wish the FCC would move all of the Chicago area major networks to UHF, but they just aren't going to. *it really burns me up that all these politicians are talking about the horrible DTV transition because of the $40.00 convertor box debacle. If they wanted to save people money they would make sure that the FCC put ALL the major networks on the UHF band throughout the nation* 

I also wonder if the FCC could start adapting the major public broadcasting networks to conform to the technology of today (or tomorrow). I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to specify that public broadcast channels make available, for some type of streaming/download, any program that they offer to broadband computer users to television users as well. 

With the direction of not only Tivo units, but also Blu-Ray players, gaming consoles and Tv's have taken the lines between computers and Tv's are (finally) converging. What would the difference really be if NBC makes an episode that aired last week available to computer users on the web or Tv viewers that are also hooked to the web?

Back on topic....I do like the switch I made. Although....


dan


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> Here's one slant I have't seen anyone discuss in this thread (unless I totally missed it) - What about a Home Theater PC? I've got one set up with six USB ATSC tuners for receiving OTA HD locals... There are other capabilities of an HTPC that I have not yet explored... SageTV (another DVR app with media center features) can be used with media extenders...


- That's some beautiful setup you've got there! It'd be my dream system but for the fact that Snapstream's BeyondTV (I assume that's what you've got) is (as far as I know) PC/Windows-based ONLY... I stick with Macs, so unless something better comes along for them I'll probably go with MythTV (open-sourced).

Now that NBC affiliates are broadcasting a local NBC WeatherPlus channel, for most people the Weather Channel is now superfluous. The Sci-Fi channel has become at least for me a BIG disappointment (aside from Battlestar Gallactica - who knew that show would EVER have been resurrected into something successful and worth watching?!). The History, Discovery Channel and PBS shows are now often available on DVD, and I'll bet they'll soon be archived online somewhere if they aren't already (does anybody out there know if they are already somewhere?) And when Amazon starts (eventually) offering HD downloads...

The more I think about it, with SO many retirees and others on fixed or limited incomes becoming SUCH a large segment demographically, and as people become more and more used to the idea of downloading video programming and THEN watching it (I don't think streaming will EVER become good enough or reliable enough for adoption by a very large portion of the public), traditional cable sure will have a LOT of competition!!!


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> If there were anything in the least worth watching OTA (other than PBS), and if it were commercial free, I might consider setting up an antenna. Since I avoid network television like the plague, and since HDNet, HDNet Movies, HD Theater, HBO, Starz, A&E, Animal Planet, National Geographic, Turner Classic Movies, and several others are not available OTA, the answer is, "No, I don't feel any urge to drop Cable." I'm not thrilled with the cost, of course, but it's a tiny fraction of what I am forced to pay for the garbage which passes for programming on network television, whether I watch it or not... There's no question the HD experience is amazing, and I all but purr like a kitten every time I sit to watch something like Planet Earth or a high quality remastering of a classic movie, but while the presentation is something, content is King.


Interestingly, and MUCH to my surprise, I - like many other people using TiVo, have discovered that the *overwhelming* amount of television programming that I currently view is *now* broadcast network-based! That didn't *used* to be the case. The change began when the networks began to realize that shelling out really big bucks for scripted programming DID result in a slowing down of loss of eyeballs. So they started paying big-name movie actors, etc. for television show work, even in sitcoms. The result so far seems to be that although the BULK of TV programming is still garbage (including the newer game and "reality" shows), the NETWORKS - between the now 5 of them - are doing EXTREMELY well all things considered.

I've always been a fan of OTA broadcasting, sentimentally as well as because of it being the most affordable means of transmission and because of its greater reliability in times of national and local emergency.

Cable's *original* purpose was to provide improved picture quality over analog broadcasting. But with the advent of digital OTA broadcasting, I really do believe that cable-provided television programming will largely become superfluous for a large portion of the population. As more and more people come to realize that they can connect an antenna to their tv and receive crystal clear digital and HD reception (yes, it's true - a large segment of the population STILL DOES NOT REALIZE THIS YET!!!), more and more will drop cable - especially if this recession carries on for as long as it apparently will, and if the cable companies continue to refuse to lower their prices while at the same time try to force as many subscribers as they can to switch to more expensive "digital" tiers. And this does not even take into account the issue of diminished picture quality due to COMPRESSION - as more digital and especially HD programming comes on line, cable companies will increasingly need to COMPRESS their signals to fit it all into their bandwith limitations - even switched digital eventually will not be enough, in and of itself. But OTA-broadcasted transmission will ALWAYS provide the least-compressed signal, at least as far as I can figure.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

gonefishin said:


> If they wanted to save people money they would make sure that the FCC put ALL the major networks on the UHF band throughout the nation ... I also wonder if the FCC could start adapting the major public broadcasting networks to conform to the technology of today (or tomorrow). I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to specify that public broadcast channels make available, for some type of streaming/download, any program that they offer to broadband computer users to television users as well... What would the difference really be if NBC makes an episode that aired last week available to computer users on the web or Tv viewers that are also hooked to the web?


I couldn't agree with you MORE about the idea of putting all of the major OTA broadcasters on one band. I'm not 100% sure, but I would think that VHF digital would be in most instances stronger and be able to cover a larger geographical area than UHF digital, just as it has been under analog. So I don't know why so many stations that previously broadcasted on VHF have switched to UHF for digital, maybe it had to do with the FCC requirement of continuing to broadcast their old analog signals simultaneously with their newer digital signals, and the coming reallotment of bandwith for public safety, etc. But yes, having them all on one band or the other - even if it were UHF - would be so much better than what now exists. For awhile I couldn't figure out why I couldn't pull in my local CBS affiliate's digital signal even though they were broadcasting from the same tower that all other local stations were. I eventually communicated with the station's chief engineer, who told me they were staying on VHF. Oh, well.

As far as your comments about having the same programming offered both online and OTA, well, that's already beginning to happen, even without FCC involvement. It's quite a bit tougher for PBS to pull off than the other networks, because of the MONEY issue - the other networks get their funds from advertising, so it makes sense to get our eyeballs focused on their product whether it's delivered to us via the airwaves, the Internet, or a cable tv provider. If Internet viewership increases ad revenue, the increased costs to the networks for Internet delivery will be worth it to them. But such is not the case for PBS. But I would think that for PBS, download-for-a-fee WOULD make a LOT of sense, whether it was per-show or some sort of subscription arrangement.

P.S. I don't think that any of this is really "off-topic." The main theme of this thread is cable alternatives - which TiVo facilitates. All of this stuff enters into that. When the thread was first started, digital OTA broadcasting was just getting off the ground. Now that it's a reality, and more and more people are beginning to see the BENEFITS of it, the topic will become more and more relevant to larger numbers of people.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

Thankfully, all my local OTA channels are going to stay UHF. One of them was initially going to stay on VHF13, but they changed their mind and the FCC gave them permission to stay UHF. I much prefer it as I can use a significantly smaller antenna. Of course, I'm also only about 15 miles from the transmitter and have LOS, so I could almost get away with a wire coat hanger.  

I installed a DB4 antenna on the roof using an existing commdeck and wiring I had up there for a satellite dish I never mounted up there. It's working great and giving me an amazingly strong signal, even with a couple splitters inside. The reduced size of UHF antennas makes it possible for people in fringe areas to put up a very high gain antenna to help bring the signals in. That should help those that live a little further out.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

SteveHC1 said:


> I couldn't agree with you MORE about the idea of putting all of the major OTA broadcasters on one band. I'm not 100% sure, but I would think that VHF digital would be in most instances stronger and be able to cover a larger geographical area than UHF digital, just as it has been under analog. So I don't know why so many stations that previously broadcasted on VHF have switched to UHF for digital, maybe it had to do with the FCC requirement of continuing to broadcast their old analog signals simultaneously with their newer digital signals, and the coming reallotment of bandwith for public safety, etc. But yes, having them all on one band or the other - even if it were UHF - would be so much better than what now exists. For awhile I couldn't figure out why I couldn't pull in my local CBS affiliate's digital signal even though they were broadcasting from the same tower that all other local stations were. I eventually communicated with the station's chief engineer, who told me they were staying on VHF. Oh, well.


I'm pretty sure that's exactly the rationale for having both VHF and UHF channels for analog and digital broadcasts. Four of my local network affiliates (channels 7, 9, 11, and 13) that broadcast analog between channels 7 and 13 and UHF for HD digital are switching back to their original VHF frequencies as of February 17th. The rest of the VHF locals (channels 2, 4, and 5) were orignally below channel 7 so they're stuck with their current UHF frequencies. It sucks because I now have to replace my UHF-only antennas with VHF/UHF models to continue receiving OTA digital HD transmissions once the changeover takes place. With my luck I'll get a snow storm and the temps will stay below freezing so I can't get back on the roof to make the switch.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm pretty sure that's exactly the rationale for having both VHF and UHF channels for analog and digital broadcasts. Four of my local network affiliates (channels 7, 9, 11, and 13) that broadcast analog between channels 7 and 13 and UHF for HD digital are switching back to their original VHF frequencies as of February 17th. The rest of the VHF locals (channels 2, 4, and 5) were orignally below channel 7 so they're stuck with their current UHF frequencies. It sucks because I now have to replace my UHF-only antennas with VHF/UHF models to continue receiving OTA digital HD transmissions once the changeover takes place. With my luck I'll get a snow storm and the temps will stay below freezing so I can't get back on the roof to make the switch.


I have actually READ WARNINGS that once the analog-to-digital switch is complete and the dust begins to settle, that we may VERY WELL see a LOT of stations switching from their currently assigned or adopted band and frequencies to others. Can you imagine the CRAZINESS that will ensue?! Oh, well - the price we pay for "progress," I suppose...


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *kb7sei*
> The reduced size of UHF antennas makes it possible for people in fringe areas to put up a very high gain antenna to help bring the signals in. That should help those that live a little further out.


I find this statement amusing - you can buy VHF antennas rated for 100 miles about the best I have seen for UHF is 60-70miles. So how exactly does broadcasting on UHF help people in fringe areas?



> Originally Posted by *mr.unnatural*
> It sucks because I now have to replace my UHF-only antennas with VHF/UHF models to continue receiving OTA digital HD transmissions once the changeover takes place.


I will agree that it sucks, but the fact that for many markets digital broadcasts would end up being on both VHF and UHF (as analog is now) has been know/assumed since the beginning of digital broadcasts. There are plenty of good combo VHF/UHF antennas out there. Who people should really be mad at are all the people/stores who sold UHF only antennas (claiming they were "digital" or "HD" antennas no less) knowing full well that they would need to be replaced come 2009.

Thanks,


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## Pixel (Jan 10, 2003)

jrinck said:


> Maybe I'll come back once the content providers and cable/sat folks figure out why I left.


And make adjustments to their business model you/everyone finds acceptable.

As if that's ever going to happen. They'll choose to go out of business before they'll ever give a thought to exactly why their customers abandoned them.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> I find this statement amusing - you can buy VHF antennas rated for 100 miles about the best I have seen for UHF is 60-70miles. So how exactly does broadcasting on UHF help people in fringe areas?


Just because they aren't selling them now, that doesn't mean you can't build them. For the same gain, higher frequencies mean smaller antennas. That's why those little 18" dishes can receive a low power signal from geosync orbit. You could build a dish style antenna for UHF and get huge gain figures. Your beamwidth would be tiny, but that's the price you pay. I expect antenna manufacturers are waiting to see how the dust settles. It's entirely possible that there just isn't a market for bigger UHF antennas. And those "mile" ratings are just estimates. There are a LOT of factors that effect reception. All of this is without getting into the subject of amplifiers. 

VHF propagation helps you in some long distance settings, and that's why you see longer distances quoted for VHF. At least the VHF band we're keeping is VHF-hi, so the VHF antennas don't need to be quite so big as the old ones were.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *kb7sei*
> Just because they aren't selling them now, that doesn't mean you can't build them. For the same gain, higher frequencies mean smaller antennas. That's why those little 18" dishes can receive a low power signal from geosync orbit. You could build a dish style antenna for UHF and get huge gain figures. Your beamwidth would be tiny, but that's the price you pay. I expect antenna manufacturers are waiting to see how the dust settles. It's entirely possible that there just isn't a market for bigger UHF antennas.


Well I have been watching TV broadcasts via VHF and/or UHF for over 50 years and TV has been broadcast via VHF and/or UHF in the US for over 70 years. I am fairly certain someone learned how to build antennas during that time period.

I remember when the first commercial UHF channels started in my area - it was one of the reason's my parents got a roof top antenna. You could pickup the VHF channels with rabbit ears (well most of the time) but to get the new UHF channel you needed a roof top antenna (or at least something better than rabbit ears).

How big an antenna is only matters upfront (costs and instillation) after that who cares? I happen to have a comb Channel Master CM 3671 right now (173"L x 110"W) which is rated at 100miles VHF and 60 miles UHF and it wasn't that hard to install.

The problem antenna manufactures have is a good antenna will last decades and as cable became more available many people gave up using antenna's completely. OTA Digital TV has caused more people to be interested in OTA again so perhaps antenna sales will creep up again.

Thanks,


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

> I remember when the first commercial UHF channels started in my area - it was one of the reason's my parents got a roof top antenna. You could pickup the VHF channels with rabbit ears (well most of the time) but to get the new UHF channel you needed a roof top antenna (or at least something better than rabbit ears).


That's partly due to the propagation effects I mentioned earlier. VHF uses longer wavelengths that penetrate walls and such better. UHF will get more attenuated by the same materials. Much like how some cell phone providers seem to get better indoor reception. They have a lower frequency that penetrates better. That's why people recommend outdoor rooftop antennas, there is less "in the way" of the signal. These effects can be mitigated by higher gain, more directional antennas.

There is also the fact that UHF has traditionally been harder to run very high power levels from, and more expensive for gear and electricity to do it. So many UHF channels were low to medium power while older VHF stations were running 2-10 times the power levels.



> How big an antenna is only matters upfront (costs and instillation) after that who cares? I happen to have a comb Channel Master CM 3671 right now (173"L x 110"W) which is rated at 100miles VHF and 60 miles UHF and it wasn't that hard to install.


Most of us have less understanding wives than you apparently do. If I wanted to put up a "huge" VHF beam, my wife would blow a gasket. This is also part of the reason I don't do any directional work on the HF bands, I can hide a wire antenna, a beam is next to impossible for, say, 80 Meters. Yes, I could put such a thing in the attic, and it would probably work fine for TV. But I can put a UHF antenna with more gain on the roof and it doesn't "look ugly". I could also put such a thing INSIDE the house and not have it be too bad. That's a big plus for people that aren't allowed to place rooftop antennas.

I suppose it's partly a matter of perspective here, as some may have received a watchable NTSC VHF signal with rabbit ears. But I'm also considering that many people are going to need stronger signal levels due to digital transmission. You don't get a little picture static anymore, you get blocking or blank frames. People aren't going to find that nearly so acceptable as a little static on the picture.



> The problem antenna manufactures have is a good antenna will last decades and as cable became more available many people gave up using antenna's completely. OTA Digital TV has caused more people to be interested in OTA again so perhaps antenna sales will creep up again.


Agreed. I think that as we move forward with the digital broadcasts interest in OTA will pick up again. Particularly since many cable and satellite operators seem to like to over compress things. So people will be interested in the better quality as they get large screens to view the artifacts on. I imagine this has helped antenna makers get some new designs rolling and such.

There is also the issue right now where many digital OTA stations are broadcasting from temporary towers and/or with lower power levels for various reasons. Reception will likely improve significantly for most digital TV users after the change takes place. Unfortunately for many, they got duped by big box store salesmen and are going to need a different antenna or another one added to the system after the change as stations in many areas are moving around afterward, some to VHF. I expect a number of people are going to be very annoyed by that. Most people here likely know to check places like tvfool.com for post-transition information and are at least aware of the possibility.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> OTA Digital TV has caused more people to be interested in OTA again so perhaps antenna sales will creep up again.
> 
> Thanks,


- I see a VERY big potential for resurgence in antenna products here. Lets hope the manufacturers see the same and invest in some quality R & D; even the best ones that have been out there on the market could stand some improvement.

But TUNER quality is just as important. I still have as of yet to see ANY reviews on ATSC tuners, whether in tv's or stand-alones.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

SteveHC1 said:


> - I see a VERY big potential for resurgence in antenna products here. Lets hope the manufacturers see the same and invest in some quality R & D; even the best ones that have been out there on the market could stand some improvement.
> 
> But TUNER quality is just as important. I still have as of yet to see ANY reviews on ATSC tuners, whether in tv's or stand-alones.


I'm surprised that ATSC tuner comparisons aren't more common. I have found that the tuner does make a difference. The HDHomeRun has improved significantly over the past couple years with just firmware updates. With the most recent firmware, I think it works at least as well as the two TVs I have with integrated digital tuners. It's kind of hard to say with the built in ones, they don't give nearly as much info as the HDHR does.

I wonder how much that lack of information factors in? You could do a basic works/doesn't work with the same antenna system, but comparing signal strength/quality isn't as easy. With the digital signal, you don't get issues until you get big issues, and many of them don't report very well what they think the signal is like. If they all reported a bit error rate or something like that, it would be a lot more reasonable to compare them. Assuming they don't lie about it to make you feel better or lower support call volume.

While the HDHR is an excellent tuner, it doesn't help much for those that don't want to build an HTPC system.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

In regards to ATSC tuner ratings. I remember when one of factors Consumer Reports used to evaluate in their TV reviews was OTA reception (back in the 80s). I just got the March 2009 issue with ratings on over 100 Plasma and LCD TVs and they didn't even mention the OTA tuners at all in the TV reviews. Which is funny because they also had an "All-digital TV is here" article in the same issue where they talked about digital converter boxes. They did talk about the boxes ability to pull in signals but they said


> it would be very difficult for any set of lab tests to accurately predict what you'll experience at home.


So it sounds like they haven't found a reliable way to rate an ATSC Tuner's ability to pull in channels like they could back in the analog days.

Thanks,


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

I just did. Ordered my tivohd and dvr expander yesterday, going to give Directv all their stuff back. The whole conversion will save me $65/mo, and the shows like Nip Tuck that I will miss can be had over Amazon VOD.

Got a 14' x 9' Channelmaster in the attic that does just fine.


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## Rodwalls (Jan 12, 2009)

I been OTA only since the first of the month. My Tivo really does a good job with the channels that I receive, going to check into a preamp and maybe another antenna soon. Saves me about 89.00 a month. Hurt a little a first but now real glad I made the change. I get plenty of HD programs and they look great! So welcome aboard!


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

Dropped cable for various reasons a few weeks ago. Have not missed and saving $100 a month is sweet! We receive all the major networks and PBS.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

Often the picture quality of OTA-received programs will be BETTER than that provided by cable or satellite companies. Cable and satellite service providers have the option of compressing the signal on top of the original transmission's, generally resulting in some degree of image data loss. Providers will increasingly need to resort to such measures to manage their bandwidth consumption as more of their content providers go HD, but this is generally not an issue with broadcast stations' OTA transmissions.


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## Whittaker (Oct 11, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Four of my local network affiliates (channels 7, 9, 11, and 13) that broadcast analog between channels 7 and 13 and UHF for HD digital are switching back to their original VHF frequencies as of February 17th. The rest of the VHF locals (channels 2, 4, and 5) were orignally below channel 7 so they're stuck with their current UHF frequencies. It sucks because I now have to replace my UHF-only antennas with VHF/UHF models to continue receiving OTA digital HD transmissions once the changeover takes place.


I'd hold off on those purchases.

I have two channels in my area that are VHF analog, have temporarily switched to UHF digital, but will be returning to VHF digital after the switch.

One of the channels is one of two PBS stations I receive, and I happened to be talking to the chief engineer about another issue, and I was mentioning that only their station and one other in the entire region were going back to VHF, and that I had thought I would have been able to ditch my VHF antenna.

He told me their VHF digital signal will be so strong I would have no trouble getting it on a UHF antenna. They are currently transmitting at 316kW analog, but after the switch, they will be transmitting at only 25kW digital, but he told me that their signal strength will be FAR stronger than the current analog signal. And that's three digital channels (XX.1, XX.2, XX.3).


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

SteveHC1 said:


> Often the picture quality of OTA-received programs will be BETTER than that provided by cable or satellite companies. Cable and satellite service providers have the option of compressing the signal on top of the original transmission's, generally resulting in some degree of image data loss. Providers will increasingly need to resort to such measures to manage their bandwidth consumption as more of their content providers go HD, but this is generally not an issue with broadcast stations' OTA transmissions.


Ive not seen any local provider yet with hd locals that matched OTA hd locals.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

elwaylite said:


> Ive not seen any local provider yet with hd locals that matched OTA hd locals.


My cable company passes through digital streams that it receives from the local stations, so there is no degradation.


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

vman41 said:


> My cable company passes through digital streams that it receives from the local stations, so there is no degradation.


I think you are one of the lucky few left. Most have quit doing that.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

vman41 said:


> My cable company passes through digital streams that it receives from the local stations, so there is no degradation.


If that is indeed true I wouldn't expect it to last forever; they are under no obligation - legal or otherwise - to do so and when push comes to shove, if they need the bandwidth for other channels they'll use whatever compression scheme they need to unless they decide to go with a switched digital video (SDV) system.


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

Hi All,

I'll join in on this, I went OTA about 3 weeks ago and am lovin it. My new Tivo HD XL has great tuners, better than my Pioneer 5020. Like everyone else, I agree the OTA are equal to or often better than cable (TWC in my case). I A/B'd for 2 weeks across all kinds of programs....made me realize just how bad cable was.

I'm using the Wineguard 3000 in bottom floor apartment..pulling in Dayton networks perfectly and most of the Cincy networks too. If I point the antenna just right, I could practically pull in all the Cincy channels if I wanted...but its too confusing having so many networks show in the program guide.

I'm getting all my "cable shows" via Hulu (Daily Show, Colbert, BSG)...and their quality from Hulu is way better than what TWC was providing via analog. I'm hoping that Tivo puts a flash compatible browser in these things some day...that would be perfect. Until then, I may break down and get a new Mac Mini when they're released.

Who knew PBS had all these sub channels? I'm getting 6 where I'm at...only 1 fulltime HD though.

This is working so well, I can imagine cable execs sweating in their suits in this current economy....if they weren't so clueless. I calculated I've spent over 12K with TWC in my lifetime, had cable since 21. I've never been so glad to get rid of a product. I'd have never looked around if their 8300HDC boxes weren't such an unappealing product...now they lost not only the box rental...but the service fees too!!!

I was all geared up for a long speech when I dropped the box...but she just took the box and processed it, got me out of there. I guess they must be trained to not let us get the word out to the other poor shmucks standing in line like I'd been doing.

Everything is going wireless...why wouldn't TV too?


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

I just realized Hulu hasn't been mentioned until my post. Someone in earlier post said streaming video will never work...and that's just dead wrong.

You guys are missing out if you haven't tried it. Its advertising supported streaming video, free. Think online DVR. Streaming from Hulu looked way better than my TWC analog (Comedy Central, SciFi) ...and HD content from Hulu (720P) is virtually indistinguishable from normal 720P. 480P streaming looks same as 480P from TWC. Also tons of free movies.

Best part is, the ads are 30 seconds or less and few/far between. Sometimes you can opt to watch a movie trailer at beginning and get whole show ad-free.

All the best "cable" shows are online, free.

No, I don't work for them..

TWC has great broadband which is making this streaming video possible -thanks TWC


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

Id love for Hulu to be worked into the Tivo.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

We currently have TWC. We live out a bit from the city and can't get OTA channeling.  we have tried a HD antena and still couldn't pick up more than a fuzzy reception. I assume we could try something on the roof but DH is worried that he will pay $200, spend time trying to put it up, and still have it not work.

I asked this on another thread, but we really only need the network channels. I have been told that if we go to basic service with TWC ($11 or so a month) that we will not get HD. Is this true?

I am SO tired of paying so much a month for TV! What I WANT is network channels and Tivo.

Thanks.

Dawn


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Dawn, others are probably more expert but you should not get FUZZY channels. With digital (separate from High Definition, by the way), you generally either get great reception or none or you get breakups where you see colored BOXES on the screen or the picture might freeze or sound go out. Fuzzy may mean you only tuned in the older standard versions of your channels and not their digital counterparts - usually shown with a DECIMAL point.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

Dawn, instead of Channel 2, try 2.1 for example. That should be the digital equivalent. Note that you need to tell your TV or converter box to do a channel scan first. You do have a TV with a built in digital tuner or a converter box, right? Do make sure before you spend too much time on it. If you post the model number of your TV (it's on the back somewhere usually) we can probably tell you for sure. Note that for Tivo, unless you have a 10-250 (DirecTV HD), S3 or TivoHD, it does NOT have a digital tuner in there. You will need a converter box to use the older Tivos with digital signals, and I'm not sure what support for those is like right now. 

As for antennas, go to tvfool.com and put in your address. They can give you a rough idea what kind of antenna you need. If you're worried about it, go up one size from what they predict. You can also contact the guys at solidsignal.com, they will help you pick an antenna as well. Post the tvfool image here, there is a link to download them, both now and post-transition (whenever that ends up being) it will help us determine what you need and where to point it.

Define "HD antenna" as well. That could be anything from rabbit ears to a full high gain monster.  

If you get HD locals or not with basic cable is up to the cable company. I would think you would have to pay extra for HD, cable companies I have had the displeasure to work with usually hit you for everything they can.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you.

We have 2 HD Sony TVs. We have a WEGA something or other, 3 years old and DH just bought a Sony Bravia 52" S series TV right after Christmas.

So, both of those TVs are compatable for Digital OTA TV. Our other TVs are not, but I am not worried about those.

Last night we did what you are suggesting and found 2.5 and 3.5 to be the HD channels with plugging the cable cord directly into the TV, BUT, we currently subscribe to the $50 package, which includes HD. I am told you either get the $50 package or basic cable (no High Def at all) for $11. There is NO in-between. I wish there were.

I will look for the antennas you are mentioning and will see if I can buy one while I am out and try it. I just want to be able to return it if it doesn't work, which is hard when you buy online.

Thank you.

I am heading out today to return ALL of my DVR boxes to TWC and ask for basic TV only. As far as I can tell, this won't hurt me at all....I can always add more service later. I am also ordering a Tivo and USB today.

Dawn



kb7sei said:


> Dawn, instead of Channel 2, try 2.1 for example. That should be the digital equivalent. Note that you need to tell your TV or converter box to do a channel scan first. You do have a TV with a built in digital tuner or a converter box, right? Do make sure before you spend too much time on it. If you post the model number of your TV (it's on the back somewhere usually) we can probably tell you for sure. Note that for Tivo, unless you have a 10-250 (DirecTV HD), S3 or TivoHD, it does NOT have a digital tuner in there. You will need a converter box to use the older Tivos with digital signals, and I'm not sure what support for those is like right now.
> 
> As for antennas, go to tvfool.com and put in your address. They can give you a rough idea what kind of antenna you need. If you're worried about it, go up one size from what they predict. You can also contact the guys at solidsignal.com, they will help you pick an antenna as well. Post the tvfool image here, there is a link to download them, both now and post-transition (whenever that ends up being) it will help us determine what you need and where to point it.
> 
> ...


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## fred2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Dawn, one more thing - at least with many of my OTA channels, I use OLD RABBIT EAR antennas and they work fine from my upstairs and were not even bad downstairs. There really is NO such thing as a HD antenna from what I have read. Yes, you may need something more than rabbit ears but again, rabbit ears can allow you to test - disconnect the cable, screw in the rabbit ears and RESCAN for digital channels and see what happens.

Obviously you could be in an area with too many hills or high buildings or even trees and ota might not work. I'm lucky, just on a nice rise in hilly Seattle and get great ota whereas a friend a few blocks from me is down in a lower spot and suffers. I get most with no problems but one with an broadcast antenna 90 degrees to most of the others does go boxy on my occasionally.
Good luck.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Whittaker said:


> I'd hold off on those purchases.
> 
> I have two channels in my area that are VHF analog, have temporarily switched to UHF digital, but will be returning to VHF digital after the switch.
> 
> ...


Too late. I just swapped out the UHF antenna aimed at Baltimore with an Antennas Direct Clearstream C2 VHF/UHF antenna. The ChannelMaster UHF antenna it replaced was highly directional and prevented me from getting all of my Baltimore OTA locals whereas the C2 is more omni-directional and picks up the local PBS station that was outside of the UHF antenna's view. I'll probably swap out the ChannelMaster 4228 UHF antenna aimed at Washington, DC, with either another C2 or the slightly larger C4 model, both of which are considerably smaller than the 4228. I've got at least one DC local channel that sits at the outside edge of the antenna beam and the reception is marginal at best. The AD antenna should widen the reception path and allow me to pick up the fringe stations.

FYI - The C2 antenna was recommended by the folks at Solid Signal when I filled out the HDTV antenna inquiry on their website and provided my address and zip code. So far it looks like a winner. I've got the output split eight ways so I needed an antenna with sufficient gain to overcome the signal loss from splitting it so many times.

I finally connected the OTA input to one of my S3 Tivos and used the signal strength meter to help align the antenna. I was up on the roof with my cell phone and called my son on the house phone where he would call out the signal level displayed on the TV from the Tivo and let me know if it rose of fell after adjusting the aim. Once I got it peaked I locked it down and all is good.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

SteveHC1 said:


> Often the picture quality of OTA-received programs will be BETTER than that provided by cable or satellite companies. Cable and satellite service providers have the option of compressing the signal on top of the original transmission's, generally resulting in some degree of image data loss. Providers will increasingly need to resort to such measures to manage their bandwidth consumption as more of their content providers go HD, but this is generally not an issue with broadcast stations' OTA transmissions.


I can tell a slightly better picture quality, but the big difference to me is the audio quality.

My wife still insists upon having cable so she can watch a multitude of movies and other programs, but I am now TiVo-ing all our network programs OTA just for the superior sound.


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

Dawn,

I'm using the Winegard SS-3000 indoor HDTV antenna, I'm pulling in stations 50+ miles away, perfectly.

winegard.com/offair/zone1.php

I bought it off Amazon.com which is very easy return process..however they're out, so you can buy it direct from Winegard. I'm not sure how far away your stations are but you might want to give it a try as a baseline before spending on roof antennas.


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## sonicworld (Nov 3, 2002)

dmcdayton said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'll join in on this, I went OTA about 3 weeks ago and am lovin it. My new Tivo HD XL has great tuners, better than my Pioneer 5020.


Curious as I have the same TV and just ordered my 1st HD Tivo. How did you make the determination that the Tivo HD has a better tuner than the 5020?


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

Tivo tuner pulled in more stations on same hookup. Pioneer tuner locks up occasionally and resets itself, Tivo is rock solid. Pioneer is slow changing, locking onto channels, where Tivo is very fast in this regard.


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

TivoHd actually has better SS than my 2008 Panny plasma.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

dmcdayton said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'll join in on this, I went OTA about 3 weeks ago and am lovin it. My new Tivo HD XL has great tuners, better than my Pioneer 5020. Like everyone else, I agree the OTA are equal to or often better than cable (TWC in my case). I A/B'd for 2 weeks across all kinds of programs....made me realize just how bad cable was.
> 
> ...


- Re: PBS - I _know!!!_ PBS seems to have so many different OTA digital and even HD "channels" - far more than my local cable company (Comcast) carries - that even the program guide companies can't seem to cover them all! But I think it's a bit too much - I hope our tax dollars aren't going to help fund so many "sub-channels"!

I can't imagine that in this economy large numbers of cable subscribers would NOT start to drop their cable subscriptions, at least in areas where OTA reception is at least reasonably good. Heck, even in hilly Connecticut I got in WAY more OTA digital stations than I *ever* did in analog!!!

But funny that you said "Everything is going wireless...why wouldn't TV too?" - after all, TV originally was ONLY OTA and always _has_ been OTA - goes to show you that not only has cable really entrenched itself over the years, but also the truthfulness of the saying that if you stick around ong enough you'll see history repeating itself...


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

dmcdayton said:


> I just realized Hulu hasn't been mentioned until my post. Someone in earlier post said streaming video will never work...and that's just dead wrong.
> 
> You guys are missing out if you haven't tried it. Its advertising supported streaming video, free. Think online DVR. Streaming from Hulu looked way better than my TWC analog (Comedy Central, SciFi) ...and HD content from Hulu (720P) is virtually indistinguishable from normal 720P. 480P streaming looks same as 480P from TWC. Also tons of free movies.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that Hulu's been working out so well for you! That was probably me decrying the efficacy of streaming as opposed to "download-to-storage" as a truly viable alternative to OTA or cable/satellite-provided programming sources. The "problems" with streaming, as I'm sure you know, are that a) there are multiple "file" formats - thus you must have multiple "players" or at least codec decoders to be able to view them all, and b) unless the source provides REALLY ample "buffering" you're at the "whim" of your Internet service provider's local network speed... and if you're going to have THAT much of a buffer, heck you might as well be allowed to just download the whole program file and be done with it - which most PC and Internet systems seem to be able to handle better anyway. After all, Hulu was created by broadcasters ANYWAY as an alternative means of their program distribution, so DRM-related issues SHOULD be moot and even in instances where it might be an issue (say, with HBO or other "pay-to-view" content providers), copy-protection is rather easily incorporated into the file now-a-days. And certainly the cost of hard drive storage is no longer the issue it once was (which was the original impetus behind "streaming" - it takes up much less space on your local hard drive) - I'd rather use more disk space and have "guaranteed" playback quality than have to rely on my Internet service provider's local network speed ANY day... the more people in my area that are on the network the same time that I am the slower it gets.

But I must say that with the "big boys" getting into "Internet TV" in a big way, the quality of the product has been improving *tremendously* and now rather rapidly at that. But don't expect the situation of fewer commercials there to last for much longer - the whole reason that the networks are getting INTO this business in the first place is to grab your eyeballs FOR commercials, so expect to see MANY more of them as time goes on.


----------



## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

DawnW said:


> We currently have TWC. We live out a bit from the city and can't get OTA channeling. we have tried a HD antena and still couldn't pick up more than a fuzzy reception. I assume we could try something on the roof but DH is worried that he will pay $200, spend time trying to put it up, and still have it not work.
> 
> I asked this on another thread, but we really only need the network channels. I have been told that if we go to basic service with TWC ($11 or so a month) that we will not get HD. Is this true?
> 
> ...


- Believe it or not, there is really NO SUCH THING as an "HD antenna"! That's just manufacturers' and distributors' marketing crap. Most if not all "HD antennas" are simply indoor UHF antennas, sometimes with a built-in signal amplifier. MANY HD and digital OTA broadcasts are on the VHF band, and many more that are currently UHF will go to VHF when analog broadcasting completely stops. So if you go with the proper OUTDOOR VHF *and* UHF antennas, with amplification if you need it, and if you point them in the right direction (or put them on a rotor), AND if you don't have skyscrapers or a mountain etc. blocking the signals, you should be able to recieve your local digital and HD broadcasts just fine! But do NOT do this just yet - wait for the broadcasters to stop broadcasting in analog and settle down into their permanent broadcasting bands FIRST before putting up the antennas... keep in mind that the length of the delay may in part be determined by the extent to which Congress decides to delay the mandatory shut-off of analog broadcasting.


----------



## jjamezz (Jul 19, 2005)

Anyone know of a good supplier for an OTA antenna?


----------



## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

elwaylite said:


> TivoHd actually has better SS than my 2008 Panny plasma.


Both my TiVo HD and my Hitachi seem to have pretty darned good tuners.


----------



## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

jjamezz said:


> Anyone know of a good supplier for an OTA antenna?


www.antennasdirect.com has a pretty good selection and pretty good links to advice.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

jjamezz said:


> Anyone know of a good supplier for an OTA antenna?


www.antennaweb.org is a GREAT site for gaining better understanding of exactly which types of stations you have at x distance from you and therefore which type(s) of antenna(s) you'd need to get them in.


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you!

Last night we cancelled TWC and set up rabbit ears. Unfortunately, the only OTA HD channels we got were PBS stations and NBC. The rest are still fuzzy.

DH was home last night early so he did a bit of research and found that we most likely would need a roof antenna to get all of the major networks on HD. Although we haven't tried a higher powered indoor one either.

We were amazed that the PBS and NBC High Defs were even clearer than TWC HD.

Man, we hate cable! If I had a decent option for internet, I would get rid of them completely! I hate them receiving ANY money from us.

Dawn



fred2 said:


> Dawn, one more thing - at least with many of my OTA channels, I use OLD RABBIT EAR antennas and they work fine from my upstairs and were not even bad downstairs. There really is NO such thing as a HD antenna from what I have read. Yes, you may need something more than rabbit ears but again, rabbit ears can allow you to test - disconnect the cable, screw in the rabbit ears and RESCAN for digital channels and see what happens.
> 
> Obviously you could be in an area with too many hills or high buildings or even trees and ota might not work. I'm lucky, just on a nice rise in hilly Seattle and get great ota whereas a friend a few blocks from me is down in a lower spot and suffers. I get most with no problems but one with an broadcast antenna 90 degrees to most of the others does go boxy on my occasionally.
> Good luck.


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you. I will look into this.

Last night we tried a cheap set of rabbit ears and got a couple of channels. We looked it up last night and typed in our address and it says we will need something stronger to pull in the rest of the network channels.

We have 2 HD TVs and I would like to be able to use them both.

Dawn



dmcdayton said:


> Dawn,
> 
> I'm using the Winegard SS-3000 indoor HDTV antenna, I'm pulling in stations 50+ miles away, perfectly.
> 
> ...


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

This is fine for some things....but sitting at my computer to watch a show isn't really all that comfortable and the computer screen is much smaller than our TVs. We also have a family with young kids and they need their own shows.

Sigh.

Dawn



dmcdayton said:


> I just realized Hulu hasn't been mentioned until my post. Someone in earlier post said streaming video will never work...and that's just dead wrong.
> 
> You guys are missing out if you haven't tried it. Its advertising supported streaming video, free. Think online DVR. Streaming from Hulu looked way better than my TWC analog (Comedy Central, SciFi) ...and HD content from Hulu (720P) is virtually indistinguishable from normal 720P. 480P streaming looks same as 480P from TWC. Also tons of free movies.
> 
> ...


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jjamezz said:


> Anyone know of a good supplier for an OTA antenna?


Check out www.solidsignal.com. Tell them where you're located and where you'd like to install the antenna and they'll suggest models that will fit the bill. They carry a complete line of antennas and should have one that's just right for you.


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

I used solid signal for me cm 3020, great price.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

DawnW said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Last night we cancelled TWC and set up rabbit ears. Unfortunately, the only OTA HD channels we got were PBS stations and NBC. The rest are still fuzzy.
> 
> ...


- Now you sound like ME LOL!!!


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Oh, good. I am not alone.

Now, after dealing with no TV last night and today (other than basic cable via horrible analog pictures and our 2 HD channels), DH and I are in a bit of a debate.

Now that I know Directv *may* indeed be able to give us High Def because of new satellites put up last year, I would like to just go back to Directv. DH thinks he would like to just do OTA and get Tivo.

Decisions, decisions.

Dawn



SteveHC1 said:


> - Now you sound like ME LOL!!!


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Check out www.solidsignal.com. Tell them where you're located and where you'd like to install the antenna and they'll suggest models that will fit the bill. They carry a complete line of antennas and should have one that's just right for you.


that site has you go to www.antennaweb.org where you can put in your address in and it will show you whee towers are and what general kind of antenna works. Just giving the direct link here


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

DawnW said:


> Oh, good. I am not alone.
> 
> Now, after dealing with no TV last night and today (other than basic cable via horrible analog pictures and our 2 HD channels), DH and I are in a bit of a debate.
> 
> ...


Oh, certainly not alone.  Just look at the size of this thread. DTV is an option, but they aren't any cheaper than cable. So if saving money is the goal, give the antenna a try. What size did the website say you need? We need more info to give good advice. If you're confused about all this, just fill out the form on SolidSignal.com. They will look up the information and give you some suggestions. I bought my antenna from them and was very happy with the service and pricing. I seem to remember their return policy being reasonable as well. If you would rather go local, try radioshack. They used to have a good selection of antennas, though I haven't been in there in a while. I've seen a few in Home Depot and Lowes as well. They won't be able to tell you what size to get though, so go in prepared with what you want. It will be something like "Medium Directional" or a color like "Yellow" or "Green".

If you don't want to go rooftop, and you have one, tell them you want to install in the attic. You need a bigger antenna that way, but it's hidden and such. You don't have to mount on the roof to get a good idea if it will work or not. Just put it together and aim it in the general direction, even inside the house. See what you get. Count on signal getting quite a bit better on the roof.

Of course, building inside then mounting outside can be a challenge with the really big ones. My DB4 is tiny compared to some of the monsters people are sporting in this thread.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Well, saving money is always good, but as I plopped down $60 for my our dinner for a family of 5 last night, I realized that I would prefer good TV to a meal out just once!

DH and I went to the site last night and it says we need a roof top multi-directional $160 antenna (not including the cables and mounting and such.) I hope this is accurate.....we seem to have problems that our neighbors don't. We live on a hill and our house is down the hill 1/2 way (over 2 acres), but the upper 1/2 of our hill is full of very tall trees. This was why Directv wasn't able to give us High Def a year ago and why we have more problems with getting OTA channels.

Dawn



kb7sei said:


> Oh, certainly not alone.  Just look at the size of this thread. DTV is an option, but they aren't any cheaper than cable. So if saving money is the goal, give the antenna a try. What size did the website say you need? We need more info to give good advice. If you're confused about all this, just fill out the form on SolidSignal.com. They will look up the information and give you some suggestions. I bought my antenna from them and was very happy with the service and pricing. I seem to remember their return policy being reasonable as well. If you would rather go local, try radioshack. They used to have a good selection of antennas, though I haven't been in there in a while. I've seen a few in Home Depot and Lowes as well. They won't be able to tell you what size to get though, so go in prepared with what you want. It will be something like "Medium Directional" or a color like "Yellow" or "Green".
> 
> If you don't want to go rooftop, and you have one, tell them you want to install in the attic. You need a bigger antenna that way, but it's hidden and such. You don't have to mount on the roof to get a good idea if it will work or not. Just put it together and aim it in the general direction, even inside the house. See what you get. Count on signal getting quite a bit better on the roof.
> 
> Of course, building inside then mounting outside can be a challenge with the really big ones. My DB4 is tiny compared to some of the monsters people are sporting in this thread.


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## fauxfive55 (Feb 5, 2009)

Howdy folks. 

I'm new to everything TiVo, actually I just put up an OTA antenna on my roof and am thinking of picking up a TiVo HD from Amazon. The one question I have is with the feed from my antenna, will I still be able to utilize the two tuners in the TiVO? I'd really like to be able to watch one program and record another or record two at once.

Thanks in advance!


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

Just split one feed to the tivo and one to your tv. Then you can record two on the tivo and watch a third live on the tv.


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

Dawn,

HDTV antennas are somewhat directional. Websites referenced earlier (and also from Winegard's site) will tell you what direction to point your antenna to pick up the most channels.

TivoHD has a signal strength meter function and I tweaked my Fox channel from 75% to 100% by rotating the SS-3000 about 2 inches. I was very pleased with my indoor antenna, I would recommend you try it and you can always return it if its not sufficient.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

I wouldn't be too quick to go back to satellite - I'm sure you know how easily their signal is lost! But given that you live halfway down a (presumably rather large) hill, whether or not even a properly selected, amplified antenna would do the trick would depend upon which direction (relative to your house and the hill) your local stations' broadcast tower(s) are located in (as well as how far away it/they are and whether they broadcast on VHF or UHF) - not difficult to determine if you go to www.antennaweb.org


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

fauxfive55 said:


> Howdy folks.
> 
> I'm new to everything TiVo, actually I just put up an OTA antenna on my roof and am thinking of picking up a TiVo HD from Amazon. The one question I have is with the feed from my antenna, will I still be able to utilize the two tuners in the TiVO? I'd really like to be able to watch one program and record another or record two at once.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


- Yes, works BEAUTIFULLY at that! Will ALSO download from the web (if you have broadband Internet at home) at the same time - AND if you do, can connect to your home wireless or wired network setup such that it can take photos or music that you have stored on your pc/mac and (dis)play it on your tv! It's a pretty cool device all-in-all; then agaijn it'd BETTER be given they charge you a monthly subscription fee just to USE it for ANY purpose!


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## fauxfive55 (Feb 5, 2009)

SteveHC1 said:


> - Yes, works BEAUTIFULLY at that! Will ALSO download from the web (if you have broadband Internet at home) at the same time - AND if you do, can connect to your home wireless or wired network setup such that it can take photos or music that you have stored on your pc/mac and (dis)play it on your tv! It's a pretty cool device all-in-all; then agaijn it'd BETTER be given they charge you a monthly subscription fee just to USE it for ANY purpose!


Thank you. I just ordered my first TiVo, the TiVo HD!


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

fauxfive55 said:


> Thank you. I just ordered my first TiVo, the TiVo HD!


- Congratulations! Honestly, TiVo's tuner(s) really IS a great one for OTA reception and recording - wait until you see the picture and sound quality! And the 30 sec. skip is great - even if you want to watch something "live," just start the recording of the program but wait 15 or 20 mins. or so to start watching it (the recording) - it'll keep on recording it while you're watching, and you can just skip right through all of the commercials.

Some stuff you may not know:

Through its broadband connection TiVo also allows you to connect with the Live365 Internet Radio service (it's GREAT!); the Rhapsody music service; Yahoo! Weather and Traffic; YouTube (it's actually WATCHABLE on the larger screen); the Netflix streaming video service; the Amazon, Disney/Cinema Now, and Jaman download video services (and Jaman offers a weekly FREE "indie" movie to TiVo subscribers); a BUNCH of free Internet TV download sources (including from the Weather Channel, New York Times, and independent producers); local movie theater browsing with ticket purchasing through Fandango; and it can even connect with your favorite audio "podcast" sources (but it can't really "subscribe" to any of them, at least not as far as I can tell).

With halfway-decent OTA reception, a broadband connection, and online accounts with the other vendors, you pretty much won't have any need or desire for cable tv. For example - if you set up an Amazon.com account online, when you initiate an Amazon.com movie "rental" through your TiVo, after entering your Amazon.com password TiVo will automatically connect with that account so that Amazon will automatically charge the small "rental" fee (generally $0.99, $1.99, $2.99, $3.99, or in some cases free) to your charge card linked with your Amazon.com account... the movie will then automatically start downloading to your TiVo for viewing on your tv when the download's completed. The movie will then stay on your TiVo until you watch it (you'll then generally have 24 hrs from the time you start viewing it until the time you finish - Jaman gives you up to 7 days), and generally up until 30 days from the time of original download - at which time the movie will be automatically deleted unless you do so yourself beforehand.

The biggest "joke" right now is that if you set up a Dominos.com account online you can actually order pizza via your TiVo and have it delivered automatically, so you don't have to reach for your phone (not that Domino's is ever worth ordering, but TiVo obviously thinks so)... personally, I think their programmers' time would've been better spent figuring out how to get the TiVo to put the popcorn in the microwave...

You'll also see some other obvious advertisements "pushed" to your TiVo, but you don't have to view them.

In my opinion, one of the greatest advantages to TiVo, its broadband connection and its network of linked vendors is that even if you're not at home you can go online wherever you are and instruct the system to download pretty much whatever you want AND/OR to record a tv show so you don't miss it if you didn't already do so at home. You can even order it to schedule a tv show recording from your CELL PHONE - now _that's_ a pretty neat trick!!!

And if you have kids, as I do, TiVo's "KidZone" feature is FANTASTIC. I'm a single parent and don't have the time to view everything that my son watches on tv; KidZone is so feature-rich that I don't HAVE to.

You should know that TiVo does collect data from all subscribers' units regarding the owner's demographic data, what they watch, when they watch it, and HOW they watch it; they then aggregate your data with other subscribers' and sell the final info products to other companies... they're trying to become a "higher-tech" alternative to the Nielsen ratings outfit. But they claim they do not include your own personal info.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that site has you go to www.antennaweb.org where you can put in your address in and it will show you whee towers are and what general kind of antenna works. Just giving the direct link here


That's true but if you check this link you'll be taken to a form that you fill out to request help in selecting an antenna. They basically check your location based on the antennweb.org data and select the best antenna that's right for you.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Antennaweb always suggests a roof top antenna for us.

We played with the indoor antenna last night and we had ABC and NBC come in and out. My husband was determined to watch LOST in HD! ARGH! We had to keep switching back and forth.

Neither of us has had too much sleep in the last few nights, just one of those weeks. We both said, "Man, if we had Tivo we would have just taped it and gone to bed!"

Now, about the satellite and losing signal. We did have Directv at this house when we moved here. We had no problems with it....the reason we got rid of it is because we did not have HD at at that time. When the tech came out to give us HD and reposition our sattelite is when we realized we could not get HD because of our location.

DH still would like to get Tivo and OTA.....but I am hesitant to get Tivo and pay the price for it only to really want expanded TV later. My kids are freaking out a bit about losing kids shows 24/7. No, they don't watch TV 24/7, but they want it available! 

I do watch a lot of things on A&E, HGTV, CNN, and TNT. DH likes to watch the Military Channel, DIT, and the History Channel. The kids like the kids' channels.

I don't mind trying it for a while with only OTA, but I hate to have to turn off my Tivos and lose the money if we change our minds. I wish you could use Tivo with Satellite, that would make it easy to choose for me.

Dawn



SteveHC1 said:


> I wouldn't be too quick to go back to satellite - I'm sure you know how easily their signal is lost! But given that you live halfway down a (presumably rather large) hill, whether or not even a properly selected, amplified antenna would do the trick would depend upon which direction (relative to your house and the hill) your local stations' broadcast tower(s) are located in (as well as how far away it/they are and whether they broadcast on VHF or UHF) - not difficult to determine if you go to www.antennaweb.org


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

DawnW said:


> My kids are freaking out a bit about losing kids shows 24/7.


There are PBS subchannels with 24/7 kids' programming, though they may or may not be carried in your area. In general, digital OTA provides a much greater amount of PBS programming vs. analog, and a TiVo helps make good use of it.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

DawnW said:


> Well, saving money is always good, but as I plopped down $60 for my our dinner for a family of 5 last night, I realized that I would prefer good TV to a meal out just once!
> 
> DH and I went to the site last night and it says we need a roof top multi-directional $160 antenna (not including the cables and mounting and such.) I hope this is accurate.....we seem to have problems that our neighbors don't. We live on a hill and our house is down the hill 1/2 way (over 2 acres), but the upper 1/2 of our hill is full of very tall trees. This was why Directv wasn't able to give us High Def a year ago and why we have more problems with getting OTA channels.
> 
> Dawn


Multi-directional? So you have stations that aren't close to each other? I'm curious to see what's up. Would you be willing to go to tvfool.com and post the images they produce? They will show us where your TV transmitters are located and how far away they are and such. There is a link on the results page to download them. Then just attach them to the post here with the "Manage Attachments" button.

It's entirely possible you're in a bad spot for OTA or satellite reception. But with OTA you can usually get something worked out.

$160 buys a lot of antenna. If nothing else, we might be able to direct you to a cheaper vendor.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

SteveHC1 said:


> - [...]
> Through its broadband connection TiVo also allows you to connect with the Live365 Internet Radio service (it's GREAT!); the Rhapsody music service; [...]


I was looking forward to Live365 but it turns out the bitrates are fairly slow at least on the 3 or 4 stations I checked. The speeds are in the 56kbs range. The quality is fairly tinney-sounding. You have to pay to get decent bitrates. Rhapsody is also a pay service.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

I can't seem to upload it. It says it is an invalid file.

Will this work?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=c853845496

Dawn



kb7sei said:


> Multi-directional? So you have stations that aren't close to each other? I'm curious to see what's up. Would you be willing to go to tvfool.com and post the images they produce? They will show us where your TV transmitters are located and how far away they are and such. There is a link on the results page to download them. Then just attach them to the post here with the "Manage Attachments" button.
> 
> It's entirely possible you're in a bad spot for OTA or satellite reception. But with OTA you can usually get something worked out.
> 
> $160 buys a lot of antenna. If nothing else, we might be able to direct you to a cheaper vendor.


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## dmcdayton (Jan 28, 2009)

Dawn,
What height did you specify for your antenna?

Here's my plot:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dde1c91c436

I put in my antenna distance above ground as 6'. Everything in green I get very strong signal via indoor OTA but they're all 8-9 miles away. However, I can easily pull in channels 5.x and 12.x (and other channels up to 40miles) if I aim the antenna in their direction. However, I don't need them since its duplicate network, too confusing to program. An attic antenna would probably fix you up nicely.

If you're only trying rabbit ears, you might benefit from a dedicated indoor antenna to pull in a few more if you want to just try it out to see if you can live with OTA.

Make sure you're looking at DIGITAL channels, if there are no decimal points showing on screen, its only ANALOG, which will look bad at your distance.

Good luck.


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## gonefishin (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Dawn,

Tivo HD and OTA really is nice, add the Netflix or Amazon (etc.) possibility and it gets even nicer. I receive all my channels, though it did take a little work thanks to Chicago area broadcst. But I did get really good reception on everything.

Solidsignal is a great place to start! I would also go through AVS HD reception forum as well. Just look for your town and state. People in your area should be able to give you some good advice. If you have a Television with a digital tuner I think I would check the ability to receive every channel that you want before you bought the Tivo unit.

Also, when you describing your location to anyone trying to help you with reception give your location (city/state) and describe the "lay of the land" as well. Does anyone in your area use an antenna with good results?

good luck!

dan


----------



## daydias (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi All,

OTA, why did I wait so long?
I do have one problem I know you TiVoheads can help me with.
I have searched and can't quite come up with the solution.


My Setup---
TiVo Series2 Dual Tuner
Software Version 9.3.2a-01-2-649
Lifetime
Program Source
Satellite Box, IR
Satellite Provider
Directv
IR Database Version
398

Insignia-Digital to analog converter
model #NS-DXA-1-APT

Over the Air inside Antenna

My irritating problem is Channel changing.
Single Digits OK
Double Digits all wrong.
Example-
Tivo tells the insignia to change to channel 11
Insignia receives the command as 01 and then to a final 01-1,
so the channel stays where it is because there, of course, is no 01-1.
Right now I can only choose single digit channels for automatic recording.
Also, is there a way to tune subchannles for automatic recording? In the Channels I receive list I have two choices
Example-
2 KTVU
2 KTVUDT

Would the Apex be a better choice? or would it just be more of the same?
I tried 3 times through guided setup changing set top box from LG, Zenith, Hughs
Also tried Dish for provider.
Please Help!

I Love My TiVo!


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you! I need to see with Hulu and such as well.

I did describe the lay of the land earlier in the thread. Our neighbors don't even have the same lay of land that we do. We have over 2 acres, but our property in quite hilly and at the top of the hill is a bit of a forest of very tall trees. Our front property also has tall trees. It is very private and great, but not great for reception. Our front roof top and ground still have snow that barely fell in our area 2 days ago and was gone by noon 2 days ago in most areas.

Unfortunately, that front is where our Charlotte/local stations come from.

My kids are just like, , you mean we won't get our stations anymore???

We don't get them right now but they are sure I am not seriously thinking of not ever getting them back!

Dawn



gonefishin said:


> Hi Daw\
> 
> Tivo HD and OTA really is nice, add the Netflix or Amazon (etc.) possibility and it gets even nicer. I receive all my channels, though it did take a little work thanks to Chicago area broadcst. But I did get really good reception on everything.
> 
> ...


----------



## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

DawnW said:


> Antennaweb always suggests a roof top antenna for us.
> 
> We played with the indoor antenna last night and we had ABC and NBC come in and out. My husband was determined to watch LOST in HD! ARGH! We had to keep switching back and forth.
> 
> ...


Dawn - If you guys really enjoy watching the non-OTA channels then by all means go back to DirecTV!! And if you go to the following link I think you'll be VERY pleasantly surprised! -

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html?WT.ac=mytivohome_directv_directvdet_lnk


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

wireless200 said:


> I was looking forward to Live365 but it turns out the bitrates are fairly slow at least on the 3 or 4 stations I checked. The speeds are in the 56kbs range. The quality is fairly tinney-sounding. You have to pay to get decent bitrates. Rhapsody is also a pay service.


I've found the bitrate to not be an entirely reliable indicator of sound quality - if you really check out the full list of free stations you'll find quite a few that sound decent. But you're right - the highest quality stations - and there are a TON of them - do require a paid subscription. This is because the feds require that Internet stations pay royalty fees to ASCAP etc. and Live365 handles this for their member stations, at least as far as I recall. At any rate, I've found the annual fee to be worth it. But I was lucky enough to get in on it as a "charter" member so I've got a somewhat cheaper subscription rate than what's now offered. It's WAY better than "Music Choice" so I find the fee worth it. I tried out Rhapsody but found that I generally preferred Live365.


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

daydias said:


> Hi All,
> 
> OTA, why did I wait so long?
> I do have one problem I know you TiVoheads can help me with.
> ...


I don't see how you're using DirecTV and a digital converter box.

The Series 2 Dual Tuner TiVos can only control one box at a time, and were never made for OTA, thus not upgraded by TiVo to work with digital converter boxes.

Are you saying you've used the work-around for Series 1 and Series 2DTs, "lying" to the TiVo about having satellite service, and using the converter box in place of the satellite tuner?

If so, and you're thinking about changing converter boxes, get either the Zinwell Zat 970A or 950A, or a TR-40 or DTVPal from Echostar.

Both the Zat and the 40/Pal have onboard event timers, like an old VCR would have. If you set the converter box's timer to turn itself on (and set itself to the right channel) at the same time the TiVo is set to record, you're all set. The TiVo doesn't even have to use its IR blaster with the box. _(Tho' you will end up needing to use the converter box's own remote for Live TV.)_


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

Really? Wow.

Ok, that seals the deal for my choices in getting my DVR boxes then if I go with Directv.

We have a scheduled appt on the 17th. I was still trying to decide on what to do and since they couldn't come for almost 2 weeks, I had some time to decide.

I told them I would pay the $199 for a 2nd HD DVR box, but if this will come even by the end of 2009, I will just hook up one of my old DVR non-HD boxes to my HD TV (or do OTA with that one for HD for a while) and then purchase a Tivo for Directv when it comes out and add it.

Dawn



SteveHC1 said:


> Dawn - If you guys really enjoy watching the non-OTA channels then by all means go back to DirecTV!! And if you go to the following link I think you'll be VERY pleasantly surprised! -
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html?WT.ac=mytivohome_directv_directvdet_lnk


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

DawnW said:


> I can't seem to upload it. It says it is an invalid file.
> 
> Will this work?
> 
> ...


Odd. I've sent those files to forums before. The link worked for me though. Lots of stations nearby. What's the ground look like to the north of you? It that toward the peak of the hill you live on?

Concentrate on the green and yellow ones. It looks like you should be able to get ABC,CBS,NBC and FOX without too much trouble with a smallish antenna. CW and PBS might work as well, though I would recommend a bigger antenna for those.

Are you willing to roof mount the antenna? It would help a lot. If not, Attic would be the next best. Here are a couple that would pick up the signal that are highly recommended by reviewers.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&PROD=AD-DB8
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=4228-HD&mybuyscid=2821841114
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD-8800&mybuyscid=2821841114

The last one is a little tight on the beamwidth. I use a DB4, the smaller version of the first link. It works very well for me. Start out pointing north, and drift a little east as required to pick up the other stations. You have 2 main transmitter locations, so you will probably want to aim the antenna in the middle of them. The DB8 has a 100 degree beamwidth, more than enough for this. You should be able to get at least the stronger stations this way. With what you have said about your location and the map, you will not get them with rabbit ears. You need a good quality antenna. Higher and outside is better.

I'm using a rooftop mount like this one: 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM3009

It's basically the same sort of thing that the satellite dishes use, just taller.

If you have any questions, just ask. And don't be afraid to say you're going back to DTV.  I'm focusing on the OTA stuff because this is the OTA thread. Whatever you decide, enjoy it.


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## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

To the North of us there are very tall trees, you cannot see our house from the street because of the tree line. If we could face anything (antenna or satellite) to the SE of us, we would be all set as there are no trees on that side of the house.

We actually (with our little rabbit ears) get PBS chrystal clear. We also get NBC without any issues.

DH finally got ABC to come in and out last night and CBS is spotty (comes in and out also.) Fox we can't seem to get.

So, it would make sense that we may only need a bit of a stronger antenna to reach the additional stations.

Dawn



kb7sei said:


> Odd. I've sent those files to forums before. The link worked for me though. Lots of stations nearby. What's the ground look like to the north of you? It that toward the peak of the hill you live on?
> 
> Concentrate on the green and yellow ones. It looks like you should be able to get ABC,CBS,NBC and FOX without too much trouble with a smallish antenna. CW and PBS might work as well, though I would recommend a bigger antenna for those.
> 
> ...


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

DawnW said:


> To the North of us there are very tall trees, you cannot see our house from the street because of the tree line. If we could face anything (antenna or satellite) to the SE of us, we would be all set as there are no trees on that side of the house.
> 
> We actually (with our little rabbit ears) get PBS chrystal clear. We also get NBC without any issues.
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like you're close. I would get a quality antenna with some gain and directionality. Those I mentioned would likely get an excellent signal on the stations you can receive now and bring in the ones you can't.

The smaller DB4 I'm using might also work, but I would err toward a bigger antenna than a smaller. It's a fair bit of effort to install one and you don't want to have to do it twice. Also, keep in mind that reception on digital stations should be better after the changeover, as stations will be able to position their antennas better and increase transmitter power. So it might be a good idea to wait and see as well, it all depends on your preferences.

Here's another thought. To keep costs down for testing this, if you or your husband is "handy"... http://www.tvantennaplans.com/

Complete plans for a DB4 type antenna using cheap parts.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

Looks like my original predictions regarding the fate of cable tv in the current economy are coming true, maybe a little more so than the cable companies were expecting. Couple the observations in yesterday's Associated Press wire article on the subject with Consumer Reports' publicizing that more and more consumers are reportedly getting better digital and HD pictures from OTA reception than their local cable companies, and it's beginning to look like the cable companies may FINALLY have a reason to either lower their prices and improve their service or face the possibility of seeing very large drops in their revenue if not actual numbers of subscribers. I think TiVo's products are *uniquely* positioned to take full advantage of this trend... if only TiVo would market itself properly. From yesterday's AP wires:

*Pay TV providers fret over penny-pinching viewers
*
By DEBORAH YAO - 1 day ago

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Porter McConnell gave up on pay TV last summer after noticing that monthly rates kept creeping up.

Now with no satellite or cable TV, she watches her trusty old TV set with an antenna or she goes online to catch her favorite programs. Once in a while, she buys shows from Apple Inc.'s iTunes service. McConnell also upped her subscription to Netflix Inc.'s movies-by-mail service so she gets two DVDs at a time instead of one, for $15 a month.

"Part of it is, I've got to economize," said the 30-year-old Washington, D.C., resident who works at a nonprofit.

McConnell is the kind of consumer who makes cable and satellite TV operators lose sleep. While a weak economy invariably makes people pinch pennies, this is the first time that viewing shows online has become a viable competitor to pay TV, making cutting the cord easier.

Cable operators are starting to notice. Glenn Britt, chief executive of Time Warner Cable Inc., voiced his concern Wednesday in a quarterly earnings discussion with analysts.

"We are starting to see the beginning of cord cutting," he said. "People will choose not to buy subscription video if they can get the same stuff for free."
It's tough to pin down how many people actually have given up cable - most of the evidence remains anecdotal - and which customers moved to a competitor.

Still, Time Warner Cable, the nation's second-largest cable operator, lost 119,000 basic video customers in the fourth quarter, even after excluding subscribers it gave up from the sale of some cable systems. The company also posted slower growth in new digital cable TV, Internet and phone subscribers.

More details will emerge as other cable and satellite TV operators report earnings in the coming weeks.

This is not to say that the cable business is in trouble. It's a mixed picture in this economy. While there will be some people who will completely give up their pay TV service, many folks will keep the subscription but cut back instead on going out to the movies. They also might give up a movie channel or two and buy fewer pay-per-view shows.

But pay TV providers are right to be alarmed. Not only has a flood of TV shows and movies become available online, but the video quality has gotten better. Netflix is expanding its service that lets subscribers stream movies and shows from the Internet at no additional cost. And more and more people have home broadband - 57 percent of American adults, according to the Pew Internet and American Life Project.

Throw in the worst economic slowdown in nearly a century and people question whether they still want to pay for cable or satellite. As of January 2008, the average monthly home cable bill was $84.59, up 21 percent from two years earlier, according to the Federal Communications Commission.
"You've got these factors aligning at the right time," said Bobby Tulsiani, senior analyst at Forrester Research. "This time there is a real, viable alternative" to cable.

To be sure, there can be drawbacks to canceling pay TV. Watching shows on a PC still isn't as comfortable as watching TV while relaxing on a couch. The quality of Internet video, while improving, still isn't as good, especially for live events, in which video and audio might not be in sync. While some game consoles, Blu-ray players and other devices enable video to be seamlessly delivered over the Internet to a TV, hooking up a computer to the TV to watch the full gamut of online shows on a big screen can take some technical savvy.

These downsides mattered to 36-year-old Peter Tierney, who lost his job two weeks ago as a Web producer for a New York advertising agency. With a wife and son to support, he called Time Warner Cable to cut his premium Japanese channel and whittle down his $180 monthly cable bill.

Tierney ended up saving nearly $70 a month, after Time Warner Cable gave him discounts good for two years and he canceled the premium channel.
"It's hard for two people to watch shows on the computer at the same time," Tierney said. "I can't sit on the comfy couch. I have to go to my desk and sit on my chair."

Indeed, a Forrester survey to be released in about a month found out that most people aren't planning to ditch their cable subscriptions soon. But the Internet is coming on strong as a new way to watch video, especially for the younger set.

Tulsiani noted that the success of Hulu.com, a joint venture NBC and Fox that officially launched last year and offers free TV shows and movies, has attracted other entrants. Perhaps to hedge its bets, Philadelphia-based Comcast Corp. - the nation's largest cable company - runs a similar site called Fancast.com, while full TV episodes now are available through the networks' Web sites. YouTube made deals last November to carry full shows in an alliance with CBS and MGM.

This is what worries Time Warner Cable's Britt. He warned that if cable networks keep moving content online for free, it would hurt them and cable operators like Time Warner. Because with fewer subscribers, cable operators will pay less money to programmers for the right to air their content.

But the networks' hands largely are tied. People are illegally swapping files of shows and movies over the Internet already, so the networks might as well make money off it with advertising and take some control over their content.

While cable and satellite TV companies worry about any consumers cutting service, it would appear younger people pose the biggest threat, given the wide generation gap in online TV viewing. About 72 percent of people ages 18 to 29 have watched a video online, compared to 34 percent of people ages 50 to 64, according to Pew.

Consider Thomas Senger and his family. The 23-year-old security officer decided not to get cable recently after moving out of his parents' house and into his own apartment in Bayonne, N.J. He doesn't watch that much TV anyway and prefers playing video games or viewing DVDs with friends.
"It's pointless to pay for something that I watch over the Internet," he said.
But that's not an option for his grandparents, who don't know how to use a computer and watch a lot of TV. His parents are more savvy about the Internet, but not enough to change their viewing habits. Senger said his mother likes to watch the QVC shopping channel live. She and his stepfather also watch TV while eating dinner - a tough proposition over a PC screen.
"Both of them will still need TV," Senger said.


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## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

Hi, new here and just spent God only knows how many hours reading through these threads. Good stuff!

I currently have digital cable through Comcast. Lately I've come to the dawning realization that I really don't watch 90% of the channels I have (and, the bill just went up 5 bucks in one shot!).

I don't have an HDTV (yet) and so I'm thinking I'm going to drop down to basic cable and get a Tivo HD (so I'm ready when I get around to upgrading the TV) and a subscription to Netflix. I figure I can save about $50/month, which means in 6 months the Tivo has paid for itself. OTA here is hard to get, so even with an HDTV I'd have to have basic cable for the local channels (which, oddly enough, seem to be the ones I'm watching the most). 

I've heard you can't use the guide if you do this - is it still possible to record shows? (I'm addicted to House, kill me). I don't mind spending a bit of time setting up recordings and I have a pretty good general idea of what's on when (plus, you can always check on the 'net) so this isn't a deal breaker, but I want to know what I'm getting into.

Any help is appreciated!


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

Daghain said:


> Hi, new here and just spent God only knows how many hours reading through these threads. Good stuff!
> 
> I currently have digital cable through Comcast. Lately I've come to the dawning realization that I really don't watch 90% of the channels I have (and, the bill just went up 5 bucks in one shot!).
> 
> ...


With basic cable you should have absolutely NO problem getting the TiVo HD to get the proper program guide data that it'll need to properly record shows automatically, including via its "Season Pass" feature. But although you will not need a cable box, you will PROBABLY want to shell out a few bucks/month (assuming that's what it'd cost you from Comcast) for the rental of one or two "CableCards" (these substitute for the converter box; they're essentially cartridges that slide into slots that are built into the TiVo just for them (BTW - when you buy a new HDTV it may have such slots too but you'll want the card(s) in the TiVo not the tv itself) and are used to tell the TiVo exactly which "virtual cable channels" your *local* broadcasters' programming are on (you generally don't need the cards for any other basic channels, as long as they're unencrypted). WITHOUT using the cablecards you would still be able to get the TiVo to tune in to all of your channels and local stations, but the Guide program data for their programs may be aligned with the virtual channels that Comcast in your area has them assigned to rather than the frequency that your TiVo (and/or digital tv set) will actually *receive* them on; also, if you didn't use the card(s) and all of this turned out to be the case for you you'd be stuck having to program recordings from your local station broadcasters manually, rather than using the Season Pass feature.

But let me tell you something about OTA digital reception - many people (myself included) have found that with the proper amplified antenna (even an indoor one), digital reception seems to be MUCH better than it was under analog! And you may very find that you get MORE stations than you did under analog!

So here are my recommendations given your situation and the current state of the economy:

1) Ensure you have a trustworthy, high speed broadband Internet setup.

2) GET THAT HDTV!!! You'll want to become thoroughly familiar with your new tv's features, capabilities and idiosyncrasies BEFORE messing around with a new TiVo. Besides - what good is having a TiVo HD if you don't have an HD tv to watch it on? Do NOT get one of the cheaper 720p sets, get a 1080p. Trust me on this. Try to get a 1080p (it'll do all of the lower resolutions, as well as the broadcast-standard 1080i and 720p ones, and you'll be ready for a Blu-Ray dvd player when you're ready to get one). LCD is perfectly fine; plasmas tend to produce a picture with greater "depth" to it but are heavier, throw off more heat and tend to use more electricity than the LCDs given the same screen size. Try to buy a model that has at least one if not two cablecard slots, just in case you wind up needing them... like, say, if your financial situation suddenly takes an unexpected dive and you need to drop your TiVo subscription... cablecard rental is often cheaper than a set-top cable box). And try to buy a set that has a built-in TV Guide - brand program guide service (the service is free and in most locales works even with OTA reception), in case you DO ever go with OTA instead of cable.

3) Get the TiVo HD. Remember - in addition to the unit's purchase price there is a monthly (or annual) subscription fee... without the subscription the unit will essentially be non-functional! It'll come with a 30-day free (but feature-limited) trial. The subscription includes Tribune Media's program guide data service (required). If you're lucky, around the time that you buy the TiVo they'll offer a "lifetime" subscription deal - if they do, and you can spring for it, do so. The TiVo's set-up routine can be a bit of an ordeal and MUST be done 100% correctly in order to have the unit fully-functional and hassle-free, but shouldn't take more than a hr. if done correctly the first time.

4) Try out OTA reception, you may be pleasantly surprised. Some of the indoor amplified antennas are actually pretty good, small external ones even better, and (obviously) the larger rooftop/attic ones the best. Before buying one, check out www.antennaweb.org to determine if your local broadcasters are broadcasting their digital/hd signals on VHF or UHF frequencies, their location relative to your home, etc. BTW, if you DO get your locals in OTA, don't be surprised if you find their audio and video quality to be better than they were via cable! If OTA winds up working for you, don't think twice about dropping cable tv altogether! If you use Comcast for Internet service, their Internet-only service is cheaper than their cable tv/Internet packages... and even if you use Comcast for telephone service, if you have either a newer Windows OS or an "Intel" Mac you could drop the Comcast telephone and just get a "Magic Jack" for VOIP telephone that is just as good as Comcast's "digital telephone service" only cheaper - practically FREE!

5) With TiVo HD, you won't want to stick with JUST Netflix for "video on demand" stuff. You'll want to go online and also set up accounts with Amazon.com, Jaman.com, and possibly CinemaNow.com as well. None of them have subscription fees, they're pay per time-limited "rental" or per non-time-limited permanent download. Your selection for movies, tv shows, etc. will thus be MUCH greater, and the playback will be more reliable than Netflix's because while Netflix's broadband service is strictly "streaming" in nature, the others have you download the entire program to your TiVo. Also, although all of these services currently provide you with standard definition digital video quality, one or more of the others may soon be offering genuine high definition downloadable content for TiVo subscribers in the near future (Netflix's streaming service may offer HD, but HD streaming can be even less reliable than standard def. streaming due to the much higher bandwidth needs for the increased size of the data stream).

6) If you enjoy Internet radio and plan on having your TiVo and HDTV connected to a stereo system, check out www.live365.com and if you like what you see consider paying the small subscription fee for it rather than sticking with the much more limited free subscription version - you will NOT regret it. Your new TiVo HD will be able to link with your Live365.com account to play all of your higher sound quality "pre-sets" in addition to their free (but lower sound quality) free stations!


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Daghain said:


> I've heard you can't use the guide if you do this


Incorrect. The guide data comes from TiVo. Your cable status is irrelevant; only your TiVo subscription status matters. (Or did you leave out the part where you weren't planning to subscribe to the TiVo service? If so, bad idea; it'd be a boat anchor.) As long as you have a TiVo subscription, you can get guide data.

You only need CableCards if you want digital cable, which it sounds like you don't. On the other hand, it is kind of a waste to have a TiVo HD with only analog cable... I'd urge you to try for OTA (which you can integrate into the same lineup as your cable), when and if you get one.

But I don't agree that you need an HDTV first. I had a Series 3 hooked up to a standard-def set for a year (via s-video, yet), and it was worthwhile. A downconverted HD source is the best picture you'll ever see on that set, and the TiVo does a good job of it.


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## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow, lots of good advice guys!

I'd love to buy an HDTV right now, but it's kind of cost prohibitive. Eventually I'd like to get one and at least try to pick up OTA stations - if the new tower they're planning actually goes in, I should have good reception. I'm definitely going to subscribe to Tivo service - with the cost of that, a subscription to Nexflix, and basic cable, it's still >$50 less than I'm paying now for a bazillion channels I'm not watching. 

Being able to use the guide is the one thing I was concerned about. Of course I can program shows manually but it's always nice to be able to use the guide to do that. 

I have broadband through Comcast and I'll keep that - I'll have to hook up the Tivo wirelessly, however, because there's no ethernet connection in the living room. 

Thanks for the advice, guys! I appreciate it.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I might be going ota soon. over 100 people were laid off at the factory where i work Friday. They say my job is safe but i need to save more in case they cut more jobs.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

My girlfriend and I went OTA. Between the TiVo for OTA, Boxee, Hulu, Joost, and NetFlix we have the video sources we could need.


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## maggiefan (Feb 16, 2009)

I just got the TiVo last week and am loving it so far. Have dicided to go OTA only and drop the cable. It was just getting too expensive, $81 for a bunch of channels I never watch anyway, always hated that.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

Hey! Welcome to the "club," guys! :up:


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## wtherrell (Dec 23, 2004)

Daghain said:


> Wow, lots of good advice guys!
> 
> I'd love to buy an HDTV right now, but it's kind of cost prohibitive. Eventually I'd like to get one and at least try to pick up OTA stations - if the new tower they're planning actually goes in, I should have good reception. I'm definitely going to subscribe to Tivo service - with the cost of that, a subscription to Nexflix, and basic cable, it's still >$50 less than I'm paying now for a bazillion channels I'm not watching.
> 
> ...


I saw somewhere-maybe Best Buy-- a deal where if you buy a HDTV you can get a TIVO with it for a huge discount. If you need both sounds like a good idea. If not, perhaps you could sell the TIVO on e-bay and end up not too bad off.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

maggiefan said:


> I just got the TiVo last week and am loving it so far. Have dicided to go OTA only and drop the cable. It was just getting too expensive, $81 for a bunch of channels I never watch anyway, always hated that.


81? im paying 130 It was 84.00 2 months ago before the price increase


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## maggiefan (Feb 16, 2009)

The $81 was for digital starter package with the DVR through Comcast. That's the lowest package that you can have the DVR with.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

tootal2 said:


> 81? im paying 130 It was 84.00 2 months ago before the price increase


- WOW!

This is the kind of thing that will probably lead many people to rediscover the joys of "free" OTA broadcasting, now in high definition. On a related note, I see more newspaper articles popping up describing how more and more people seem to be discovering that with the switch to digital OTA broadcasting they're actually receiving MORE OTA stations now than they ever did in analog - and, of course, it's crystal clear reception at that.

Between such improved OTA reception and the ability to download from the Internet programs that are unavailable from local broadcasters as well as movies, the need for cable or satellite tv service does seem to be shrinking.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

June 2007 I went OTA

$606 S3 purchase price
-200 rebate
-----
$406
+300 3yrs service
----
$706 total out of pocket

I dropped Direct @$67/mo and now get all HD locals via OTA for free

$706/$67 = 10,5 months to break even, now I am money ahead

I later added a TivoHD for $259 with similar payback logic
and now pay only $6.95/mo MSD for Tivo service

dropping DTV essentially paid for my two Tivos + 3 yrs service on one + a 1TB ext. drive within about 18 months and I now only have a Tivo sub bill for $6.95/mo
(18 months @ $67/mo = $1206)

Oh, yeah, I did have to buy an antenna and preamp to get HD OTA, but I did that while on DTV with my HR10-250

I just don't understand how people can pay $85/mo cabel/sat bills, but then agian I am not addicted to sports.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rmassey said:


> I just don't understand how people can pay $85/mo cabel/sat bills, but then agian I am not addicted to sports.


I'm not addicted to sports either but I have FIOS in addition to my two S3 Tivos and six-tuner HTPC. I record and watch mostly network programming but there's an abundance of great shows that you can only get if you have a cable, FIOS, or sat provider. A lot of it is far better than the majority of programming you can get from the networks. Check out Burn Notice, The Closer, Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Saving Grace, Leverage, Mad Men, and many others that you won't see on the networks. HBO and Showtime also have quite a few good series. Note that all of the shows I mentioned are available in HD so having more HD content to choose from makes it a worthwhile expense, IMHO.


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## TheGreenHornet (Nov 1, 2007)

rmassey said:


> June 2007 I went OTA
> 
> $606 S3 purchase price
> -200 rebate
> ...


I did the same exact thing. I factored the costs of cable on annual basis compared to getting started with OTA. It was win for me and a loss for Comcast. I bought a Tivo 3 plus lifetime service within a few months to suppliment my S2 with the savings of not having cable. Your costs vs savings were very similar to mine.

Being in the Philly market which is the home for Comcast - they are always in the press. In today's paper they were lamenting about losing video viewers in 4th quarter to Fios and Direct TV. They do not even acknowledge a customer like myself for cutting off cable and going solo with OTA.

In fact, when I cut them off the sales rep insisted that I had to pay for some TV service to get TV after the transition. Comcast seems to have their head in the sand and mislead customers about OTA. It has been widely reported in the national press and on GMA on ABC that more and more people are cutting the cord for cost savings and free alternatives.

I think as time goes on - many more people will discover the secret of DTV (like us OTA/Tivo users) and not having the need to pay for television.


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## TheGreenHornet (Nov 1, 2007)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not addicted to sports either but I have FIOS in addition to my two S3 Tivos and six-tuner HTPC. I record and watch mostly network programming but there's an abundance of great shows that you can only get if you have a cable, FIOS, or sat provider. A lot of it is far better than the majority of programming you can get from the networks. Check out Burn Notice, The Closer, Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Saving Grace, Leverage, Mad Men, and many others that you won't see on the networks. HBO and Showtime also have quite a few good series. Note that all of the shows I mentioned are available in HD so having more HD content to choose from makes it a worthwhile expense, IMHO.


mr.unnatural: I agree with you 100% that the shows you mention that are on cable are excellent. All those shows are or will appear on DVD or in the case of The Closer will be syndicated in the fall on the weekends.

All the shows you mention will be eventually watched in my household on DVD via Netflix. I will tell you it does annoy me when my friends are raving about the new season of Nip/Tuck on FX and I just sent back the last disc from the last season. It really bugged me while Mad Men was running their second season. I get over it real fast when I remember I am not getting a cable bill.

When I cut the cable and my new S3 Tivo was picking up shows I discovered many quality network shows that I had never seen when I had cable such as the CSIs and the other CBS crime dramas. On Monday morning my Tivo is crammed with the weekend reruns of episodes that I had never seen when I had cable. With free OTA / Tivo and only paying for what I want to watch on Netflix - I spend a lot more time watching and enjoying televison more with less choice options.

Tivo is picking up Survivor - gotta go!


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## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

Well, I returned the Comcast DVR today, and tomorrow I'll be down to basic cable. My Tivo should also arrive tomorrow, so by Saturday I'll be down to 20 channels and whatever I stream on Netflix. I'm looking forward to it.

Comcast kind of ticked me off, though. I took the box back and of course they tried to sell me a new package and weren't really thrilled when I kept insisting I only needed basic. THEN they charged me $10.95 for the guy to basically drive up to the box on the corner and flip a switch. I REALLY hope we start getting a good OTA HD signal around here soon, because I will totally buy an HDTV and cut them off. Morons.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not addicted to sports either but I have FIOS in addition to my two S3 Tivos and six-tuner HTPC. I record and watch mostly network programming but there's an abundance of great shows that you can only get if you have a cable, FIOS, or sat provider. A lot of it is far better than the majority of programming you can get from the networks. Check out Burn Notice, The Closer, Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Saving Grace, Leverage, Mad Men, and many others that you won't see on the networks. HBO and Showtime also have quite a few good series. Note that all of the shows I mentioned are available in HD so having more HD content to choose from makes it a worthwhile expense, IMHO.


- Hey! Guess what? Many if not most or all of the shows you referred to are now available for downloading to our TiVo's from the 'net! Seriously! But it's also true that there's often a fee associated with the downloads (generally $0.99 - $1.99 per episode). And I just discovered that most of the Discovery, History, Military, etc. Channel shows are ALSO available for download to our TiVo's - at least via Amazon.com! Admittedly they're only standard def. at least for now, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Amazon goes HD too. Anyway, the trick to getting EVERYTHING you want off the 'net is to NOT rely on the selection of movies & shows that we're offered via TiVo's menus, but to actually go online to Amazon's/Jaman's/Netflix's, etc. sites and order the downloads from THERE. The selection is AMAZING! And now that the Starz VOD library is being added to Netflix's streaming-to-TiVo service, there is just about NOTHING that you can only get from cable anymore - but for SOME people paying for cable may be cheaper than paying per download.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

TheGreenHornet said:


> mr.unnatural: I agree with you 100% that the shows you mention that are on cable are excellent. All those shows are or will appear on DVD or in the case of The Closer will be syndicated in the fall on the weekends.


BTW, syndicated shows will almost certainly not be the original full-length shows -- they will have minutes of content cut out for more commercials.

(There have been instances of the 'syndicated versions' showing up on DVD too, but that often gets a lot of attention, at least online... e.g. Roseanne season 1 was the syndicated versions. Also, DVD versions can sometimes have music changed, but I suspect in most cases current syndicated versions would have the music changed too. (There was a period of time when some syndicated versions of WKRP did apparently have the original music [but of course did have the cuts for time], and the DVD versions are apparently bastardized.))


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

Daghain said:


> Well, I returned the Comcast DVR today, and tomorrow I'll be down to basic cable. My Tivo should also arrive tomorrow, so by Saturday I'll be down to 20 channels and whatever I stream on Netflix. I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> Comcast kind of ticked me off, though. I took the box back and of course they tried to sell me a new package and weren't really thrilled when I kept insisting I only needed basic. THEN they charged me $10.95 for the guy to basically drive up to the box on the corner and flip a switch. I REALLY hope we start getting a good OTA HD signal around here soon, because I will totally buy an HDTV and cut them off. Morons.


- And that's EXACTLY what they are when it comes to customer relations - MORONS. People are beginning to cut back on their cable subscriptions to save money (and aggravation) and they STILL haven't changed their behavior.

By the way - on TiVo I wouldn't limit myself to Netflix. Although Netflix's streaming-to-TiVo service is cheap (to say the least), it's often crappy quality. Netflix and TiVo don't allow the customer to adjust the size of the buffer, they just downgrade the resolution automatically as your network's congestion and speed gets worse - and even THEN it still stutters and throws fits. The other services you can access through TiVo - Amazon, Jaman, etc. - actually have you download the whole, entire movie or show and THEN watch it, so it plays back beautifully... BUT: it's only standard definition, and the picture is letterboxed (sort of) on top and on the sides... picture quality is standard dvd quality at that size, only fair when zoomed to fill the entire screen. When they start offering HD downloads I'm sure it'll take a long time to download entire programs, but the picture quality should be top-notch and full screen.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

TheGreenHornet said:


> ...All the shows you mention will be eventually watched in my household on DVD via Netflix.


- You don't have to wait for the dvd anymore; you can now either stream them to your TiVo (via Netflix) or download them to your TiVo (via Amazon). But dvd picture quality currently is better.



TheGreenHornet said:


> ...When I cut the cable and my new S3 Tivo was picking up shows I discovered many quality network shows that I had never seen when I had cable such as the CSIs and the other CBS crime dramas. On Monday morning my Tivo is crammed with the weekend reruns of episodes that I had never seen when I had cable. With free OTA / Tivo and only paying for what I want to watch on Netflix - I spend a lot more time watching and enjoying televison more with less choice options.


- Absolutely! I've found the exact same thing to be true for me, too. And now that I've discovered all of the stuff that's available for downloading to TiVo, I'm afraid I'm going to start wasting a lot of time and money downloading and watching a bunch of garbage. One good thing about Jaman, at least, is that they offer a FREE indie movie download every week. Some of the "TiVoCast" web video shorts are pretty good, though - like Mediabytes, some of the New York Times stuff, Rocketboom's weird but interesting, the Weather Channel's daily regional weather conditions and forecast video's (yep - between NBC's Weather Plus OTA digital broadcasts and the Weather Channel's TiVoCasts you don't even need cable's Weather Channel anymore!)...

We FINALLY have a viable alternative to cable and satellite tv. Of course, the cable companies rip us off on the "internet-only" service (I pay $40/month for the slowest speed) and the telephone companies won't even SELL it to you unless you get their telephone service too (I'm soon switching to Magic Jack - it's THAT good, and virtually FREE)...


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## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

SteveHC1 said:


> - And that's EXACTLY what they are when it comes to customer relations - MORONS. People are beginning to cut back on their cable subscriptions to save money (and aggravation) and they STILL haven't changed their behavior.
> 
> By the way - on TiVo I wouldn't limit myself to Netflix. Although Netflix's streaming-to-TiVo service is cheap (to say the least), it's often crappy quality. Netflix and TiVo don't allow the customer to adjust the size of the buffer, they just downgrade the resolution automatically as your network's congestion and speed gets worse - and even THEN it still stutters and throws fits. The other services you can access through TiVo - Amazon, Jaman, etc. - actually have you download the whole, entire movie or show and THEN watch it, so it plays back beautifully... BUT: it's only standard definition, and the picture is letterboxed (sort of) on top and on the sides... picture quality is standard dvd quality at that size, only fair when zoomed to fill the entire screen. When they start offering HD downloads I'm sure it'll take a long time to download entire programs, but the picture quality should be top-notch and full screen.


Awesome. This is something to consider. I do not have an HDTV at the moment, so this is something I will definitely look into.

All this is new to me right now. I am anxious to see how Netflix does on my crappy ten-year-old TV. Any way you look at it, it's still cheaper than the $88 a month I was paying for a bunch of channels I wasn't watching.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

SteveHC1 said:


> - Hey! Guess what? Many if not most or all of the shows you referred to are now available for downloading to our TiVo's from the 'net! Seriously! But it's also true that there's often a fee associated with the downloads (generally $0.99 - $1.99 per episode). And I just discovered that most of the Discovery, History, Military, etc. Channel shows are ALSO available for download to our TiVo's - at least via Amazon.com! Admittedly they're only standard def. at least for now, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Amazon goes HD too. Anyway, the trick to getting EVERYTHING you want off the 'net is to NOT rely on the selection of movies & shows that we're offered via TiVo's menus, but to actually go online to Amazon's/Jaman's/Netflix's, etc. sites and order the downloads from THERE. The selection is AMAZING! And now that the Starz VOD library is being added to Netflix's streaming-to-TiVo service, there is just about NOTHING that you can only get from cable anymore - but for SOME people paying for cable may be cheaper than paying per download.


Yes, but at noticeably lower quality and usually just stereo audio instead of Dolby Digital 5.1. If lower quality floats your boat or you enjoy watching your shows on a small PC monitor then go for it. I got into HDTV for the highest quality possible and I try not to compromise on quality if I can help it. I see no reason to take a giant step backwards just to save a couple of bucks. I've tried watching downloaded content and was extremely disappointed in the quality. Try watching some of your downloaded shows on a 60" HDTV with a quality surround system and then tell me how great it is compared to a standard HDTV signal. It's simply not worth my time to watch inferior content. The current internet infrastructure can't support HD downloads so until they do, I'll stick with my current program sources. Even then it's undoubtedly going to be highly compressed and will probably not include the latest HD audio like TrueHD.

I see online sources as more of a curiousity than a viable means of watching TV, at least until they find a way to improve the quality of both picture and sound. It's just a fad that attracts the younger crowd that's enticed by all the latest gadgets. Sure, it seems like a really cool idea and it's convenient, but is it really worth it? As it currently stands, the content is highly compressed, resulting in the loss of huge amounts of detail. Comparing downloaded TV shows and movies to actual HD content is like comparing a Hyundai to a Porsche. Sure, both will get you from point A to point B and the Hyundai will do it for much less, but which one would you rather drive? FWIW, I also subscribe to Netflix and get the vast majority of my movies on Blu-Ray, which currently blows away any broadcast content I've seen to date. I have rented some older TV shows that I missed when they were originally aired but I mostly rent movies.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

mr.unnatural said:


> The current internet infrastructure can't support HD downloads so until they do, I'll stick with my current program sources. Even then it's undoubtedly going to be highly compressed and will probably not include the latest HD audio like TrueHD


- Actually the "current Internet structure" can and will "support" HD downloads (forget reliable streaming though); you'll see it soon and the video quality will be genuine 1080 resolution. Don't know what we'll see re audio though.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> Originally Posted by mr.unnatural View Post
> I'm not addicted to sports either but I have FIOS in addition to my two S3 Tivos and six-tuner HTPC. I record and watch mostly network programming but there's an abundance of great shows that you can only get if you have a cable, FIOS, or sat provider. A lot of it is far better than the majority of programming you can get from the networks. Check out Burn Notice, The Closer, Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Saving Grace, Leverage, Mad Men, and many others that you won't see on the networks. HBO and Showtime also have quite a few good series. Note that all of the shows I mentioned are available in HD so having more HD content to choose from makes it a worthwhile expense, IMHO.


first off...


> A lot of it is far better than the majority of programming you can get from the networks.


This is an OPINION even though you state it as a fact.

next


> great shows that you can only get if you have a cable, FIOS, or sat provider


Not true.... DL and/or DVDs make this content available as well.

Rock on mr.unnatural - if you like the content and feel it's worth the money, go for it. I like some of the shows too like Rescue Me, Damages, Nip/Tuck - but I don't think they are worth an $85+ TV bill. Personally I think the difference of $6.95 vs $85 is more than a few bucks, but hey that's what freedom of choice is all about right. Heck I bought a $600 DVR about 20 months ago and some would consider that nuts.

..and as others have mentioned, there's this thing called the internet with HD content to view. :up: Currently I can get all those episodes in HD within days of the original air date, along with (if I choose) BluRay rips of HD movies in DD sound...just install pyTivo and the problem is solved. No need to watch episodes on a small laptop or PC. In fact I watch DL content on my 100" screen in 720p directly from my Tivo S3.

there's really no right or wrong answer here, just various options for different needs.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SteveHC1 said:


> - Actually the "current Internet structure" can and will "support" HD downloads (forget reliable streaming though); you'll see it soon and the video quality will be genuine 1080 resolution. Don't know what we'll see re audio though.


I don't agree with this, Netflix streaming in 720p HD has been very reliable for us on a 6mb DSL connection. Too bad the selection is so limited right now.

The problem with cutting cable or sat is sports. If you're a fan of most anything, you can't cut the cord because the current streaming quality sucks (if you can get it at all).


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> [...]
> 
> The problem with cutting cable or sat is sports. If you're a fan of most anything, you can't cut the cord because the current streaming quality sucks (if you can get it at all).


Since I cut the cord, I've haven't had much problem seeing sports. I'm not a nut about it, but was able to watch all the playoff games as well as plenty of basketball.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

That's why I said, 'if you're a fan'... ESPN MNF, NASCAR on TNT/ESPN, bigtime college football games on ESPN, etc. Too much missing on OTA for the serious fans. You can't say that about the episodic (non-live) shows, because you can always get them another way. Sports for the fans are (so far) highly resistant to cord-cutting.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> That's why I said, 'if you're a fan'... ESPN MNF, NASCAR on TNT/ESPN, [...]


Sittin' here right now watchin' NASCAR ... and it's free!


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## maggiefan (Feb 16, 2009)

Will a DSL speed of 3 Mb work good with the netflix streaming? I actually get about 2500 on average.


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## SteveHC1 (Dec 12, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> I don't agree with this, Netflix streaming in 720p HD has been very reliable for us on a 6mb DSL connection. Too bad the selection is so limited right now.
> 
> The problem with cutting cable or sat is sports. If you're a fan of most anything, you can't cut the cord because the current streaming quality sucks (if you can get it at all).


??? I'm confused. In the first paragraph you state that your experience with Netflix's streaming has been very reliable for you (and by the way so far you are the ONLY person I've heard say that), yet in the second paragraph you state that "the current streaming quality sucks."

???


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Uh, Netflix != live sports streaming. You said that HD streaming was unreliable, but Netflix is not (mostly on Xbox360, not Tivo btw). Live sports streaming is not HD and is crappy, but it has nothing to do with what you said.

And wireless200, good luck watching those Nascar races when ESPN and TNT take over, say around June or so... http://www.nascar.com/races/cup


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

maggiefan said:


> Will a DSL speed of 3 Mb work good with the netflix streaming? I actually get about 2500 on average.


It'll work fine as long as you're ok with DVD quality (or worse). You won't get HD streams with that speed.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

SteveHC1 said:


> - Actually the "current Internet structure" can and will "support" HD downloads (forget reliable streaming though); you'll see it soon and the video quality will be genuine 1080 resolution. Don't know what we'll see re audio though.


Not without extreme compression and sacrificing a lot of detail. You definitely won't be able to stream HD content to view it in real time. It would have to be downloaded in advance and then watched later.


rmassey said:


> first off...
> 
> This is an OPINION even though you state it as a fact.


True, but it's one that's shared by lots of other viewers. The quality of ANY programming is the opinion of the viewer. Lots of people think that reality shows and "Professional" wrestling are great programming but I don't necessarily hold it against them.



> next
> 
> Not true.... DL and/or DVDs make this content available as well.


I've already stated my rationale regarding downloaded content. If you like mediocre quality for viewing on your HDTV then knock yourself out. Some of us would rather pay a slightly higher premium for better quality. I only resort to renting shows on DVD if I get into a series later on and missed the earlier episodes. Even then, I'd prefer to get them on Blu-Ray instead of standard DVDs.



> Rock on mr.unnatural - if you like the content and feel it's worth the money, go for it. I like some of the shows too like Rescue Me, Damages, Nip/Tuck - but I don't think they are worth an $85+ TV bill. Personally I think the difference of $6.95 vs $85 is more than a few bucks, but hey that's what freedom of choice is all about right. Heck I bought a $600 DVR about 20 months ago and some would consider that nuts.


I don't think they're worth $85 either, but I do believe you can get the majority of them included in the basic package that most providers offer. I do feel the extra cost is worth it to keep my wife happy so she can watch her favorite shows on her own HDTV. She is technically challenged and wouldn't have a clue as to how to operate my home theater setup.



> ..and as others have mentioned, there's this thing called the internet with HD content to view. :up: Currently I can get all those episodes in HD within days of the original air date, along with (if I choose) BluRay rips of HD movies in DD sound...just install pyTivo and the problem is solved. No need to watch episodes on a small laptop or PC. In fact I watch DL content on my 100" screen in 720p directly from my Tivo S3.
> 
> there's really no right or wrong answer here, just various options for different needs.


No need to rehash my opinion on DL content since it obviously makes you happy. I've downloaded TV shows that were somehow missed by my PVRs and the content is surprisingly viewable (in mkv format only; avi's look absolutely horrid on a big screen) but still not quite as good as the original. I can usually find them online for download within hours after they've aired in most cases.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> [...]
> And wireless200, good luck watching those Nascar races when ESPN and TNT take over, say around June or so... http://www.nascar.com/races/cup


Looks like they farm out the middle of the summer races to ESPN/TNT then bring it back on to ABC when it starts to get interesting again. Is that how it works? There's more NASCAR on free-TV than I thought!

I'm paying myself $100 a month to miss a few races.


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## Daghain (Feb 12, 2009)

Well, I finally got the TiVo hooked up last night and got Netflix working - it's streaming really good so far - you can't even tell it's not live TV. I just tried a couple of half hour shows, I'm going to try a movie later this week and see how that goes.

I think I am really going to like this. Hopefully next year they put a tower up by me and I can get OTA HD - if that happens I'm totally getting a new TV.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

I found the comments on downloaded HD content amusing. I've played with a few files to check it out. I can tell the difference when compared to ATSC recordings, but it's small and my wife can't see it. The sound is the original AC3 broadcasted with the ATSC transmission. The video is compressed, but MPEG4 can display the same quality as MPEG2 at significantly lower bitrates. It's quite watchable, nearly as good as ATSC. For movies, full 1080p rips are available with no transcoding, about 45GB though. Transcoded down to about 12GB ([email protected] with AC3 or DTS audio) they are also very watchable. My system isn't the best, 720p 60" with a 5.1 surround system. But those files are very good on it. Far from the old crappy AVIs people used to post. 

TrueHD? I don't know anyone that actually has a decoder for it. Isn't it only available on Blu-Ray? In any case, I'd have to spend more on speakers than my entire system is worth to hear the difference. AC3 5.1 will do nicely for me, and most people I expect. I know very few people willing to drop that kind of cash on the sound system. 

As for streaming, I won't deal with it. Downloads are fast enough that streaming is not useful in my mind. I'll be happy to pay for online HD downloads when they are unencrypted h264 minimum 720p with AC3 or DTS (or better) audio. MKV would be the preferred container. Not that it will happen anytime soon. For now, I'll buy or rent blu-ray and record ATSC. It also leaves my internet connection available for normal stuff.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

kb7sei said:


> I found the comments on downloaded HD content amusing. I've played with a few files to check it out. I can tell the difference when compared to ATSC recordings, but it's small and my wife can't see it. The sound is the original AC3 broadcasted with the ATSC transmission. The video is compressed, but MPEG4 can display the same quality as MPEG2 at significantly lower bitrates. It's quite watchable, nearly as good as ATSC. For movies, full 1080p rips are available with no transcoding, about 45GB though. Transcoded down to about 12GB ([email protected] with AC3 or DTS audio) they are also very watchable. My system isn't the best, 720p 60" with a 5.1 surround system. But those files are very good on it. Far from the old crappy AVIs people used to post.


Mkv files are quite tolerable and do in fact contain the original AC3 soundtracks. Still, nothing beats the original ATSC broadcast signal for top quality. Unfortunately, downloaded content from NetFlix, Amazon UnBox, or other online sources don't use the mkv format last time I checked, which is a darn shame. I might actually be a convert if they went with a format that would yield decent quality. FWIW, avi's are still the format of choice for most people to upload or post on the BT sites. I won't watch them but there are still lots of people out there that don't give a hoot about picture quality and are simply content to watch shows on their video iPods and laptop PCs.



kb7sei said:


> TrueHD? I don't know anyone that actually has a decoder for it. Isn't it only available on Blu-Ray? In any case, I'd have to spend more on speakers than my entire system is worth to hear the difference. AC3 5.1 will do nicely for me, and most people I expect. I know very few people willing to drop that kind of cash on the sound system.


There are a number of current receivers and preamp/processors that can decode True HD audio. If your Blu-Ray player can decode it (many current models have this capability) you can send the analog outputs to any multi-channel preamp or receiver. My Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P preamp/processor can decode True HD and DTS-HD bitstreams sent over the HDMI input. You are correct in that it is only available on Blu-Ray discs. That's because the Blu-Ray format allows for enough storage capacity to accommodate the high quality lossless multi-channel audio formats. My system isn't set up to work with TrueHD yet, but I'm slowly getting there.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Movies that are aired on premium channels are generally available on DVD first. Original shows like John Adams are available on DVD shortly after airing. Cable original series shows like Dexter are available on DVD a few months after the season ends. Many people think Blu-Ray is higher quality then what's aired on HBO.

The deal breaker is sports. Many (most) major market baseball, hockey and basketball teams air many (most) of their games on regional cable. Many college basketball and football games are aired on cable stations. 

Football is the only sport where almost all games are still available OTA.

I agree with the pp. Internet based options for sports programming doesn't really provide the same quality and viewing experience as cable (satellite).

People who have no interest in sports are probably overpaying for cable.


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## magilladke (Nov 8, 2005)

Bummer ... I just "thought" Tivo would handle clear QAM mapping. Manual recording is for the VCRs  

I was going to get a TiVo and use it w/the QAM in an extra room. Any word on this becoming a feature sometime soon? Any recommendations for a HD antenna?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Check out www.antennaweb.org or tvfool.com for info on what kind of antenna you'd need for your location. Solidsignal.com offers a wide variety of HD antennas and will help you pick one out that's right for your situation.



lew said:


> People who have no interest in sports are probably overpaying for cable.


That would be true if everyone were interested in downloading content off the internet or waiting for shows to be released on DVD that may or may not arrive in playable condition after being on a long waiting list for weeks or even months after initial release. Every type of content provider has their pros and cons. Most people are content with cable or satellite TV simply because it's convenient. Some people like Video-on-demand vs. renting DVDs from NetFlix. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. It's all just a matter of personal preference as well as what your budget can afford. Just because I don't prefer downloaded content doesn;t mean everyone should avoid it. You choose the type of provider that works for you.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Some cities have multiple regional sports channels. New York has at least 4 local sports channels. ESPN is no longer almost free to the cable systems. I've read estimates that say sports channels, in those systems, can cost the cable system $10 (or more) per month.

My comment is those people are overpaying for cable.

Nothing in your post contradicts that. Some people may be willing to "overpay" for the reasons you give.



mr.unnatural said:


> Check out www.antennaweb.org or tvfool.com for info on what kind of antenna you'd need for your location. Solidsignal.com offers a wide variety of HD antennas and will help you pick one out that's right for your situation.
> 
> That would be true if everyone were interested in downloading content off the internet or waiting for shows to be released on DVD that may or may not arrive in playable condition after being on a long waiting list for weeks or even months after initial release. Every type of content provider has their pros and cons. Most people are content with cable or satellite TV simply because it's convenient. Some people like Video-on-demand vs. renting DVDs from NetFlix. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. It's all just a matter of personal preference as well as what your budget can afford. Just because I don't prefer downloaded content doesn;t mean everyone should avoid it. You choose the type of provider that works for you.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> Mkv files are quite tolerable and do in fact contain the original AC3 soundtracks. Still, nothing beats the original ATSC broadcast signal for top quality. Unfortunately, downloaded content from NetFlix, Amazon UnBox, or other online sources don't use the mkv format last time I checked, which is a darn shame. I might actually be a convert if they went with a format that would yield decent quality. FWIW, avi's are still the format of choice for most people to upload or post on the BT sites. I won't watch them but there are still lots of people out there that don't give a hoot about picture quality and are simply content to watch shows on their video iPods and laptop PCs.


Oh, I don't think we disagree there.  I'll watch my ATSC recordings over the downloaded stuff, but I have only ever bothered with the mkv/h264 HD files. AVI/XVid is crap. I don't do BT, so I have no idea what is or is not available there. The "official" sources have encryption so I have no idea what they are using. I won't use them until they have what I want to buy. Unencrypted h264 or VC1 at 720p minimum 10Mbit/sec bitrate are required, as is AC3 or DTS audio. I'd prefer 1080p even though my displays are all 720p. I will upgrade at some point. Oh, and no streaming. I want actual downloads so that a glitch in the internet doesn't cause dropouts. I'm fine with embedding a userID or something like it in the files like iTunes does with music, as I don't intend to share them, but I want them to be playable on anything. Encrypted formats simply can't do that.

In short, don't treat me like a criminal and sell something I want to buy. Until then, I'll watch my OTA ATSC and rent or buy DVD and Blu-Ray. More of the latter than the former these days. 

The tech is there for HD online distribution. Unfortunately, the various media companies are so scared of it they are crippling it and as a result, people are looking for "less official" ways to download. I have people ask me about it weekly at least. Some of whom I would never have expected to have the technical knowledge to even know it was out there.  For now, we're not ready for full BD quality for online downloads, but the networks are getting faster and the drives cheaper. We're close. Now they just need to quit hobbling it and give people what they want. I don't really expect a sudden outbreak of common sense anytime soon though.

Again, for those looking to try OTA. Antennaweb.com and tvfool.com will tell you what antenna type you need and where to point it if it's directional. If you don't understand what they are telling you, post here or email the guys at solidsignal.com. They can help you decide on an antenna and they have very good pricing on them should you need someone to buy from. Most of the local stores have poor selection and high prices. It's really worth talking to solidsignal. A little looking and I'm getting 100% signal quality on every channel in the area with about $70 invested for the antenna and a mounting arm, shipped. When they start increasing the power, I might need to add an attenuator as the signals might get too powerful.


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## windfarm (Feb 25, 2009)

maggiefan said:


> Will a DSL speed of 3 Mb work good with the netflix streaming? I actually get about 2500 on average.


My works with that speed just fine.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> People who have no interest in sports are probably overpaying for cable.


... or essentially subsidizing people that do like sports...
digital welfare


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

kb7sei said:


> In short, don't treat me like a criminal and sell something I want to buy. Until then, I'll watch my OTA ATSC and rent or buy DVD and Blu-Ray. More of the latter than the former these days.


Umm, DVD and Blu-Ray DO have encryption. Even though they've been broken, they still have encryption. So it seems like you're being a hypocrite.


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## wireless200 (Apr 15, 2004)

mattack said:


> Umm, DVD and Blu-Ray DO have encryption. Even though they've been broken, they still have encryption. So it seems like you're being a hypocrite.


 ??? He says he rents or buys them.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

maggiefan said:


> Will a DSL speed of 3 Mb work good with the netflix streaming? I actually get about 2500 on average.





windfarm said:


> My works with that speed just fine.


Netflix's HD content streams at 3800kbps (3.8Mb).

http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

wireless200 said:


> ??? He says he rents or buys them.


I know, but he claimed that he wouldn't buy anything encrypted.


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## Ronio (May 12, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> And wireless200, good luck watching those Nascar races when ESPN and TNT take over, say around June or so... http://www.nascar.com/races/cup


I gave up DirecTV last spring, and that was my main concern, missing Nascar in the summer (It returns to OTA in Sept). I've actually found it exciting listening to the races while I work in my mancave. So glad I went solely OTA.

Ron


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## asublette (Feb 3, 2008)

The only problem I have had with OTA is having the guide on one channel and the video on another after the TV provider decides to change digital channels. I've had several cases where they have changed from one digital channel to another and the guide doesn't follow. I have to call TiVo and get their help to fix it. On the last call they fixed the two channels I called about and somehow muffed a third channel. Now I have to call back and try to get that one fixed. Hopefully the changes will settle down and all will straighten out.


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## kb7sei (Oct 4, 2001)

mattack said:


> I know, but he claimed that he wouldn't buy anything encrypted.


I was talking about online services. They are a new market and I won't accept "same old" from them while receiving lesser quality. Unless they want to serve up 50GB BD rips, which I doubt.

I'm aware of the encryption on DVD and BD, and I crack them whenever I want to. So I'm not really put out much. A boycott won't do much for the more established industries as you would never get enough people to make a difference. I just choose to buy them after they are cracked so I can do what I want with them later. And at least I have the physical media, so I don't get screwed by the DRM server going offline should the providers choose they don't want to support it anymore.

Now, if someone could organize a big enough boycott to make a difference, I would happily join in. But right now the few hundred people willing to do it wouldn't matter in the least. I also try to buy mostly used from rental places and such, it keeps my cost down and the MPAA doesn't get any money from the sale to me.

I do what I can while keeping the WAF up. Going to OTA was a bit of a stretch for her, I can only push so much.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

asublette said:


> The only problem I have had with OTA is having the guide on one channel and the video on another after the TV provider decides to change digital channels.


To be fair, the TV station doesn't just decide this randomly. After June, you should not see any more digital frequency moves except for a few small cases. This is not something that will happen again for a long time.


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## rmassey (Sep 5, 2002)

> I don't think they're worth $85 either, but I do believe you can get the majority of them included in the basic package that most providers offer.


So how much do you pay for subscription TV now? 
I pay 0$ + $6.95 for MSD tivo service on a THD.

I know that if I signed up with CC to get FX-HD for Nip/Tuck/Damages, etc. I'd be up to $85 (or more) in no time with all their garbage fees.



> but I do believe you can get the majority of them included in the basic package


How/where ?


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