# Do all Roamio and Mini have defective 1080i HDMI output?



## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

*Issue is now fixed. See my 7-30-15 update at the bottom of this post.*

Please see this post if you would like to submit this bug to Tivo support.

When I upgraded from a Tivo S3 to a Roamio Pro and Mini, I noticed a visible reduction in image quality. Many of my 1080i channels looked soft and blurry compared to the crisp output from the old S3. Doing some investigation with an HDMI video capture card, I figure out what was happening.

The Roamio and Mini are incorrectly inverting the top/bottom fields of an interlaced 1080i signal or doing some kind of additional image processing. Here are some examples of what I'm seeing. 1080i output captured from Penny Dreadful credits on SHO.

*All Images below were captured from running video. Tivos were NOT paused or slowed down. Based on feedback in this thread, the Tivo Premiere does not have this bug. It is Series 5 only.*

Zoomed Tivo Mini on top. Zoomed Tivo S3 on bottom:









Original Mini frame:









Original Tivo S3 frame:









When you look at thin horizontal edges at the top/bottom of the letters, you see that they are flipped vertically. If you were to swap them, you would end up with the same clean image as the S3.

I've seen this problem from many of my FIOS 1080i channels. Example is from 870 SHO2PHD. Also seen on 600 CNNHD and others.

If anyone would like to reproduce this problem or has any engineering contacts at Tivo, I have uploaded a sample recording that you can transfer back to your DVR using Tivo Desktop software:

http://www.filedropper.com/sho2phdcredits2 (Click "Download This File")
Mirror:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ny3jgy ("Click here to start download from sendspace")

Be sure to set your Tivo output to 1080i. The issue is harder to see in 1080p or 720p.

Update 7-11-15:

I captured some CBS from my rooftop antenna to make sure this was not some issue with my cable TV provider. Same problem. Old Tivo S3 and PC display image correctly. Tivo Roamio Pro and Mini flip the fields:










Clip from the recording that you can transfer to your Tivo using Tivo Desktop software or play on your PC:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/kub1fs ("Click here to start download from sendspace")

Update 7-11-15:

I tested Roamio set to 1080p output. This ends up flickering between 2 images, neither of which looks correct. This flipping between the 2 images happens 60 times per second so you may not notice it. In any case, it's clear that both 1080p images look inferior to the sharp output of the S3.



















Update 7-12-15:

Tested H.264 1080i channels on FIOS and saw the same inverted field problem. The bug is not specific to MPEG2 and seems to affect all 1080i channels. Content encoded in 1080/24p or 720p does not show the bug.

Update 7-15-15:

Recorded NBC from Los Angeles station KNBC using over-the-air antenna on S3 Tivo and transferred to Roamio for comparison. Small sample from the disclaimer text at the end of a car commercial:










Clip from the recording that you can transfer to your Tivo using Tivo Desktop software or play on your PC:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/0cfrv2 ("Click here to start download from sendspace")

Update 7-15-15:

Sample of commercial from CNN Channel 600 on FIOS. This commercial was filmed with progressive camera @29.97 fps so both fields of each frame are from the same instant in time. As a result, when you step through the original file you will see that none of the frames are interlaced and show no combing. There are no repeat-first-field flags present so nothing should be re-interlacing these frames. When I step through the frames captured from Tivo S3 HDMI, they look exactly the same as the source file - no combing. When I step through the frames captured on the Roamio or Mini, they are all interlaced. This is clearly incorrect decoding of the source file. Note: These screen shots show what is being sent out of each Tivo. Since your TV will automatically de-interlace the video, you won't see the combing like I've shown here. The point is that this sample should not be interlaced to begin with. Both Tivos should output exactly the same image before it enters your TV.










http://www.filedropper.com/cnnfios (Click "Download This File")
Mirror:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/gy2bsk ("Click here to start download from sendspace")

Update 7-20-15:

Updated download links for some of the missing sample files. Please send PM if you find any dead links.

Update 7-30-15:

My Roamio Pro received an automatic software update to 20.5.2-USA-6-840 last night. Upon reboot I quickly tested all my samples. Bug is definitely fixed!!!

Also tested my Mini with update to 20.5.2-01-6-A92 and it's also fixed. Results are indistinguishable from the old Tivo S3 when playing 1080i channels over HDMI.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

How do you have the resolution options set on both units?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Fios has had this interlacing issue show up on a number of channels before, even on their own equipment. It may be that they are borking their picture again, and maybe the S3 is just better at fixing it?

http://forums.verizon.com/t5/FiOS-T...nels-Jagged-and-stairsteped-edges/td-p/706314


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fios has had this interlacing issue show up on a number of channels before, even on their own equipment. It may be that they are borking their picture again, and maybe the S3 is just better at fixing it?
> 
> http://forums.verizon.com/t5/FiOS-T...nels-Jagged-and-stairsteped-edges/td-p/706314


Not in this case. To make sure, I recorded CBS from my rooftop antenna using the S3 and then transferred it to my Roamio. It shows the same inverted fields as the FIOS recording of CBS. It basically affects every single 1080i channel, regardless of source.

I setup all my devices for pass-through/native mode (only 1080i and 720p are enabled) so that my TV can do the scaling and de-interlacing. If I let the Tivo do the video processing by enabling 1080p output, the letters look better because the double-edges get blurred together. It still does not look as good as my S3.

I can't believe I'm the only person who sees this problem. Please try downloading the file I posted to your Tivo or carefully look at some fine single pixel thick text. Things like disclaimers at the bottom of commercials are good tests for this. If you tune to a 1080i channel and your Tivo is outputting 1080i, you should see it. I see it easily on both my front projector screen and F8500 Samsung plasma.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Checked it out. I'm not able to repeat it myself. When I channel surf or play your video the aliasing on the letters in 1080i is apparent and softer than 1080p, but I'm not seeing that annoying interlacing problem.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizziwig said:


> I can't believe I'm the only person who sees this problem. Please try downloading the file I posted to your Tivo or carefully look at some fine single pixel thick text. Things like disclaimers at the bottom of commercials are good tests for this. If you tune to a 1080i channel and your Tivo is outputting 1080i, you should see it. I see it easily on both my front projector screen and F8500 Samsung plasma.


My TV is only 40" but I can see the difference. It is most pronounced on the crossing of the lower case t. However, at my viewing distance the difference is not enough to affect my perception of a good picture. I have my TiVo base Roamio set to 1080i, 1080/p24 pass through, and HDMI that runs through an AVR that doesn't alter the video. My AVR indicates a 1080i/p60 picture, same as regular recordings. The picture is "good" when I use my Blu-ray player. So that may be one item in your corner.

Checking the WMP on my 8.1 PC it also looks good. I once had my Roamio set to just 1080p/60 but ran into too many audio dropouts. I let my TV (Sony 40W600B) to the picture stuff now.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I seem to recall another post here where someone was complaining about the same thing comparing an older TiVo (S3?) output to the Roamio output although I don't believe they pointed this specific issue out (I recall some screenshots of the CNN logo).

Scott


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

HerronScott said:


> I seem to recall another post here where someone was complaining about the same thing comparing an older TiVo (S3?) output to the Roamio output although I don't believe they pointed this specific issue out (I recall some screenshots of the CNN logo).
> 
> Scott


Same thing with the big "D" in Discovery's logo. My information indicated it was something at the source however. The curves looked like steps.

Seems threads like this start every few months, get a few pages of opinions, and die a quiet death. New people equal new problems. Not just with TiVo.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

Added a sample of CBS recorded from my antenna to the first post. This proves it is not an issue with my cable provider (FIOS).

This is a pretty fundamental decoding error and Tivo needs to get this fixed ASAP. I've worked with countless STBs from many manufacturers and nobody has ever gotten something this basic wrong. As things stand, you're not getting the full resolution of what a 1080i signal should deliver.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

Can someone test this on a Premiere unit? I'm curious when this bug started.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizziwig said:


> Can someone test this on a Premiere unit? I'm curious when this bug started.


Premiere looks ok. Didn't see any difference with the CBS file.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

wizziwig said:


> Added a sample of CBS recorded from my antenna to the first post. This proves it is not an issue with my cable provider (FIOS).
> 
> This is a pretty fundamental decoding error and Tivo needs to get this fixed ASAP. I've worked with countless STBs from many manufacturers and nobody has ever gotten something this basic wrong. As things stand, you're not getting the full resolution of what a 1080i signal should deliver.


 So is setting Roamio to always output 1080p only a viable workaround for now?


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## Mneitzel (Jul 5, 2015)

I thought it looked soft as well


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

moyekj said:


> So is setting Roamio to always output 1080p only a viable workaround for now?


It's probably the best work-around but it still looks a bit soft compared to 1080i from the S3 and letting my TV de-interlace to 1080p. I will try to get some screen captures from the Roamio set to 1080o output.

The bug is most noticeable on larger, higher quality sets because they tend to have better de-interlacers that try to preserve full 1080i detail. Some lower end sets just blend together the odd/even fields.

The images I'm posting are direct captures of the HDMI output of each Tivo so it shows you what your TV has to work with when it received the signal from the Tivo. Garbage in / Garbage out, so there is not much a TV can do to fix it.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

The SHO2PHD_credits2.mpg is glaringly bad with 1080i output on my Roamio, especially the top edges of the credits. With 1080p output it looked MUCH better. I think that sample video is an excellent example for TiVo to take a look at if it ever makes it to an employee who cares enough to look into it.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

Updated first post with results of 1080p output from the Roamio Pro.

This setting forces the Roamio to de-interlace the signal as it converts the original 1080i recording to 1080p. It appears the bug is still there and really confuses the de-interlacer. The image ends up flickering every other frame between 2 images, both looking pretty bad. Depending on your TV, this may look better than the buggy 1080i.

Any ideas for how to report this to Tivo? I've had pretty bad experience dealing with their phone and email tech support. The people answering pretty much follow a script and if you find a problem they've never heard before, they are hopeless for help. Can you imagine me trying to explain this issue to them? I need another engineer that I can explain this to.

PS: Those credits were from Penny Dreadful on SHO. They repeat the episodes frequently in case you want to see for yourself and can't transfer my video sample to your Tivo.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

wizziwig said:


> Can someone test this on a Premiere unit? I'm curious when this bug started.


I do see the text stepping/interlacing issue
But, I do not see any significant difference between my RoamioPro and Premiere XL4. Although I have always thought my Premiere XL4 has a slightly better overall PQ than the RoamioPro

Playing the videos on my PC they are crystal clear, w/ no interlacing issue.


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## BruinGuy (Apr 16, 2015)

wizziwig said:


> Any ideas for how to report this to Tivo?


I guess the question is whether or not this is a hardware or software bug. If it's hardware it's unlikely they can do any kind of retro fix on existing units and you'd probably get no response from them. In fact, they might already know of the problem and will do nothing.

If it's software then there's hope that it can be fixed and sent out in a later release. Thus it would be worth pursuing.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

BruinGuy said:


> I guess the question is whether or not this is a hardware or software bug. If it's hardware it's unlikely they can do any kind of retro fix on existing units and you'd probably get no response from them. In fact, they might already know of the problem and will do nothing.
> 
> If it's software then there's hope that it can be fixed and sent out in a later release. Thus it would be worth pursuing.


Did a couple more tests and confirmed that it also affects H.264 1080i channels. 24p and 60p content does not appear to be broken.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to figure out via google if this bug was present when these products launched in 2013 or was introduced by a software update.

I think the best way to determine if this is a hardware or software issue, is to compare similar hardware from other manufacturers.

The Dish Hopper with Sling runs the same BCM7425 as the 6 Tuner Roamio. Their Wireless Joey is powered by the BCM7418 - same as the Tivo mini. I would need to find someone with Dish Network who owns that equipment and can check for the bug. If they don't have it, then it's definitely not a hardware issue. If they do have the bug, then in could still be a software issue in the Broadcom SDK supplied for this SoC.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

All Roamios use BCM7241.

In any event, Margret says they will look into it. :up:


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Maybe it's the dreaded 29/59 bug in the Roamio's graphics card?

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/wiki/index.php?title=The_29_59_Frame_Rate_Issue


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

This sounds and looks like an issue I see from BBCA-HD on FiOS sometimes.


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## sangs (Jan 1, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> This sounds and looks like an issue I see from BBCA-HD on FiOS sometimes.


Me also. Happens on Starz too. However, I can confirm that it happened with my FiOS equipment as well. When I would watch the same channels using DirecTV, the anomaly was not present.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> This sounds and looks like an issue I see from BBCA-HD on FiOS sometimes.


I wish we could blame this one on FIOS. But in this case it shows up on all 1080i channels and also affects over-the-air channels here in LA. I doubt someone would screw up CBS, NBC, etc. broadcasts received over regular antenna in my area. Besides, the recordings look perfect played on computer or older Tivos.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizziwig said:


> I wish we could blame this one on FIOS. But in this case it shows up on all 1080i channels and also affects over-the-air channels here in LA. I doubt someone would screw up CBS, NBC, etc. broadcasts received over regular antenna in my area. Besides, the recordings look perfect played on computer or older Tivos.


I haven't noticed it on my local channels. If it actually is what I have seen on BBCA-HD then it is very noticeable, especially with text on the screen.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I haven't noticed it on my local channels. If it actually is what I have seen on BBCA-HD then it is very noticeable, especially with text on the screen.


I don't think this is exactly the same issue here. It looks more subtle most of the time and you may not notice unless you have a properly working Tivo to compare with on a large display. You might just assume it's supposed to look like that (as in the doubled edges of the CBS number '2' I posted above). If you can't test my samples, I suggest looking at the small text that you find at the bottom of many commercials. Some of that text will be totally illegible on the Roamio/Mini while looking perfectly fine on S3.

The issue doesn't appear to be simple field swapping. It looks like it's actually mixing in fields from a previous frame but I can't find a consistent pattern.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

wizziwig said:


> The issue doesn't appear to be simple field swapping. It looks like it's actually mixing in fields from a previous frame but I can't find a consistent pattern.


I archive Doctor Who recordings from BBC America HD and strip out the commercials. I often find all kinds of screwy video problems around commercials. I suspect all the video processing that happens when cable companies insert their own commercials in existing programs is done with the typical competence to be expected from cable companies .

Combine that with who knows what kind of code in the TiVo itself converts the mpeg-ts native stream to the mpeg-ps file I can actually download and decode, and it often becomes a challenge to get a clean copy.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizziwig said:


> The issue doesn't appear to be simple field swapping. It looks like it's actually mixing in fields from a previous frame but I can't find a consistent pattern.


May I make a suggestion? We all have different sources for content and various size televisions of various quality. I propose you look at something we all have in common that removes the source and is free. One of the Opera apps is a Screen and Network Test. It's pretty crude and you can ignore the network part that doesn't work anyhow. But it does provide a common point of reference for all Roamio and Premiere owners.

What do you detect on that test? I find there is minor stepping on diagonal lines but no problems with the smallest text. My output is 1080i fixed to a Sony 40W600B through a Yamaha AVR.

Since my normal content comes from a cable feed that maxes out at 16Mbps to 18Mbps, I don't expect a movie theater experience or even Blu-ray. But I do see your differences. It's just that they meet my expectations. And I'm not expecting anything to be done to change this.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizziwig said:


> I don't think this is exactly the same issue here. It looks more subtle most of the time and you may not notice unless you have a properly working Tivo to compare with on a large display. You might just assume it's supposed to look like that (as in the doubled edges of the CBS number '2' I posted above). If you can't test my samples, I suggest looking at the small text that you find at the bottom of many commercials. Some of that text will be totally illegible on the Roamio/Mini while looking perfectly fine on S3.
> 
> The issue doesn't appear to be simple field swapping. It looks like it's actually mixing in fields from a previous frame but I can't find a consistent pattern.


If the text is illegible then I have not seen it except on something like BBCA-HD. The issue I see there makes small text illegible. But with other channels from my Mini, Roamio Pro and Roamio Basic they are readable on a 47" LCD, 65" DLP, and 82" DLP.

Of course I'm also not looking at a lot of commericals either.

The only previous generation TiVo I have at home is a Premiere. But the content seems to look the same from the Premiere as current gen in my setups.(But I also can't say that I've looked hard at it either) The next time I take my Roamio Basic to my GFs house, I'll need to take a hard look at something and compare it to what her Series 3(OLED) TiVos show.

I guess I should look for my old HDNet Test patterns that I recorded a long time ago. I think I still have them somewhere. Any issue from 1080i should definitely show up with them.

I'm also using a Darbee Darblet in my two main setups. So if I do have the issue maybe that is helping to mask it some?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The sample file is using Bottom Field First encoding. I'm guessing that the TiVo deinterlacer assumes TFF and that's why it's swapping the fields. Try recoding the file as TFF and then transferring that to your TiVo I bet it "fixes" the issue.

BFF encoding is really rare, especially in broadcasting, so I wonder why FIOS is using it?


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I noticed this on my new Sony XBR70X850B. At first I thought it was an upscaler issue going to the UHD resolution the TV uses natively, but now I see it on my 1080p set connected to my Mini in the bedroom too. I do not recall seeing this before on either device, so I am wondering if it was introduced by a software update at some point. Where I have seen it is on the Cisco 8742 I used to have with TWC. 1080i stuff was handled very poorly by that box.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

So was this supposed to affect the Premiere? I looked at some content from my Premiere at 1080i output and then looked at the same content from my Roamio Pro at 1080P out. Very tiny disclaimer text was easily readable from the 1080i recordings I looked at from NBC and CBS on both TiVos. And if anything the Roamio Pro looked easier to read the small text. From the Premiere it somtimes looked like the letters would run together while from the Roamio you could still see the tiny bit of space between them.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

aaronwt said:


> So was this supposed to affect the Premiere? I looked at some content from my Premiere at 1080i output and then looked at the same content from my Roamio Pro at 1080P out. Very tiny disclaimer text was easily readable from the 1080i recordings I looked at from NBC and CBS on both TiVos. And if anything the Roamio Pro looked easier to read the small text. From the Premiere it somtimes looked like the letters would run together while from the Roamio you could still see the tiny bit of space between them.


I'm OTA-only, and I haven't seen anything like what is being reported either, on a 2-tuner Premiere or a 4-tuner Roamio. Has anyone seen it in OTA broadcasts? Could it be a problem with the handling of MPEG-4, which would be cable-only in the USA?


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

L David Matheny said:


> I'm OTA-only, and I haven't seen anything like what is being reported either, on a 2-tuner Premiere or a 4-tuner Roamio. Has anyone seen it in OTA broadcasts? Could it be a problem with the handling of MPEG-4, which would be cable-only in the USA?


Yes, I see it on my Roamio OTA with OTA broadcasts.

Also, from the OP:

"Update 7-11-15:

I captured some CBS from my rooftop antenna to make sure this was not some issue with my cable TV provider. Same problem. Old Tivo S3 and PC display image correctly. Tivo Roamio Pro and Mini flip the fields:
"


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hmmm... the CBS file is TFF, so I wonder what it's doing with that one? 

OP are you capturing those images when the TiVo is paused? Or while it's playing?


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Hmmm... the CBS file is TFF, so I wonder what it's doing with that one?
> 
> OP are you capturing those images when the TiVo is paused? Or while it's playing?


While playing of course. I know pausing does all kinds of weird things to the image in order to de-interlace it.

I have not looked at the picture flags for that 'credits' file to check for BFF/TFF. Good catch. Since I saw the same problem on TFF content, I stopped checking those flags. BFF might be correct for that file as it's a SKY-UK/SHO co-production. Maybe UK still uses BFF for some stuff.

The CBS capture is straight from antenna recorded on S3 (OLED). From Los Angeles station. I have an example of illegible small text at the bottom of a car commercial that I recorded from OTA NBC. I will upload tonight. I'm sure that sample is TFF also.

Everyone please keep in mind these images are not taken of my TV screen. Therefore it doesn't matter what TV or other equipment you have in your home. These are direct captures of the HDMI output of each Tivo. They do correspond to what I see when plugged into 2 different TV's in my home so the HDMI captured frames are accurate.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

Added sample from NBC (OTA) and CNN (FIOS). Based on the CNN sample, it almost looks like Roamio/Mini are de-interlacing everything (poorly) and then re-interlacing it again (incorrectly). The older S3 Tivo just passes interlaced content through without any changes.

I've spent enough of my time on this issue and I think Tivo has enough information to fix the problem if they are willing and/or able. To make this valid science, I've included sample files so others can reproduce my results. If you do, I'm sure you will come to the same conclusions.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I just downloaded the sample files. What is seen there is not what I normally see in my recordings. For instance the showtime credits. That is not what credits typically look like from my recordings. It looks similar to what I've seen on BBCA-HD on FiOS. It even looked funky playing it back on the PC. Which is not typical for PC playback either.

And on the OTA commercial, that is not what it typically looks like either. AGain it reminds me of what I've seen on BBCA-HD.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wizziwig said:


> Added sample from NBC (OTA) and CNN (FIOS). Based on the CNN sample, it almost looks like Roamio/Mini are de-interlacing everything (poorly) and then re-interlacing it again (incorrectly). The older S3 Tivo just passes interlaced content through without any changes. ..........


Did no one read my post and link days ago?

Excerpt:

_"Each frame of video content contains embedded information (metadata) that tells playback devices how to play the content. Part of the metadata determines if a particular frame of video is interlaced or progressive, and the playback device is supposed to react accordingly. If a playback device is set to output a progressive scan signal, interlaced content must be de-interlaced to be viewed correctly, while progressive scan content can be passed untouched. If the playback device is set to output an interlaced signal, progressive scan content must be interlaced to be viewed correctly, while interlaced content can be passed untouched.
However, sometimes the metadata contained in the video signal is incorrect. Content may be interlaced while being marked as progressive scan, or the content may be progressive scan while being marked as interlaced. This will pose a problem for playback devices that properly look for and adhere to the information in the metadata, as it will cause the improperly marked frame to be handled the wrong way, which results in visible artifacts during playback. Below are two examples of improper handling of the frames (click the pictures for an enlarged view)......"_



HarperVision said:


> Maybe it's the dreaded 29/59 bug in the Roamio's graphics card? http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/wiki/index.php?title=The_29_59_Frame_Rate_Issue


Make sure you click the link to see images of examples. May not be exactly that issue, but it sounds to me like it could be related in some way. If you Google "29/59 bug" you'll get tons of additional info. It was a big deal a few years back. It seems like its provider specific.

I don't think I see this on my roamios, but good luck in your quest!


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm trying to test this out with my Roamio, but it's hard to tell. Small text looks like it has a drop shadow, but it also has compression artifacts because I have Comcast. 

Would this show up in the TiVo overlay text? Even though I would assume that's not interlaced, it's mixed with video that is.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

morac said:


> I'm trying to test this out with my Roamio, but it's hard to tell. Small text looks like it has a drop shadow, but it also has compression artifacts because I have Comcast.
> 
> Would this show up in the TiVo overlay text? Even though I would assume that's not interlaced, it's mixed with video that is.


It will not affect the Tivo generated graphics: EPG, Progress Bar, menus, etc. This is a bug in the video decoding only.

That drop shadow is most likely the bug. If you had access to another device, you probably would not see it. Agreed that compression artifacts make it difficult for many people to see the type of image problems I'm discussing here.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

HarperVision said:


> Did no one read my post and link days ago?
> Make sure you click the link to see images of examples. May not be exactly that issue, but it sounds to me like it could be related in some way. If you Google "29/59 bug" you'll get tons of additional info. It was a big deal a few years back. It seems like its provider specific.


It's unrelated. The OTA channels I tested don't use that MPEG2 feature. What you refer to as "29/59 bug" is a bug in poorly written playback software on PC's. The actual streams are perfectly valid MPEG data and contain the necessary picture flags for proper decoding. I'm not aware of any hardware decoders that were ever affected by that because they are designed by people who understand the MPEG2 specs. Well, at least until this latest generation of Tivos.

I might need to pick up a Premiere to see for myself if it also has the bug. Maybe the bug is related to the new HD Menus/UI. On the Premiere you could still use the old SD Menus like the S3 but the new Tivos don't have that option anymore. I would just stick with the S3 if it could stream protected content from the Roamio like the Minis do.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I just downloaded the sample files. What is seen there is not what I normally see in my recordings. For instance the showtime credits. That is not what credits typically look like from my recordings. It looks similar to what I've seen on BBCA-HD on FiOS. It even looked funky playing it back on the PC. Which is not typical for PC playback either.
> 
> And on the OTA commercial, that is not what it typically looks like either. AGain it reminds me of what I've seen on BBCA-HD.


And yet the ancient S3-OLED (and possibly Premiere) Tivo plays all these recordings correctly.

Stop trying to blame the content. If it was the content, it would show up broken regardless of player. The reason you have not noticed it in your own recordings is because you're not looking hard enough and have no frame of reference to make it easier to spot. Depending on the style and size of text, it may just appear slightly blurrier than intended. I picked out specific samples to make the issue easy to demonstrate in screenshots. I'm not saying that everything looks that bad.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizziwig said:


> And yet the ancient S3-OLED (and possibly Premiere) Tivo plays all these recordings correctly.
> 
> Stop trying to blame the content. If it was the content, it would show up broken regardless of player. The reason you have not noticed it in your own recordings is because you're not looking hard enough and have no frame of reference to make it easier to spot. Depending on the style and size of text, it may just appear slightly blurrier than intended. I picked out specific samples to make the issue easy to demonstrate in screenshots. I'm not saying that everything looks that bad.


That is quite an important post. You've hit on points I've been wanting to make. "looking hard enough" is so true. I can see the issue when I display text and get within 6 inches of my screen. But I rarely use my TV to read books, usually don't read the credits since they move so quickly, and normally watch from 8 feet away. I have a Premiere and Roamio, and don't see the issue with your samples on the Premiere. But I doubt I will sell my Roamio to buy an S3 or another Premiere. You have found a problem that I hope gets corrected, but for now the low quality of my cable feed has a much higher priority. Good luck with your quest.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizziwig said:


> And yet the ancient S3-OLED (and possibly Premiere) Tivo plays all these recordings correctly.
> 
> Stop trying to blame the content. If it was the content, it would show up broken regardless of player. The reason you have not noticed it in your own recordings is because you're not looking hard enough and have no frame of reference to make it easier to spot. Depending on the style and size of text, it may just appear slightly blurrier than intended. I picked out specific samples to make the issue easy to demonstrate in screenshots. I'm not saying that everything looks that bad.


I can only comment on what I actually see. And until I go over to my GFs house , with her OLED S3 units. I can only compare between my Roamios, Minis, Premiere and PC. And I can only compare the samples against my recordings.

Even on the PC the samples looked funky. Exhibiting behavior I have seen from some of my BBCA-HD recordings. But when looking at scrolling credits/commercials from some of my other recordings, I don't see the same behavior on the PC or from the Roamio or Premiere.

Again , I am only commenting on what I actually see. And as far as between the Roamio and Premiere, the Roamio looked better than the Premiere. At least based on what the tiny text looked like. I could see the small space between the letters from the Roamio, but on the Premiere that space would sometimes look like the adjoining letters were attached to each other.

My comparisons between the TiVos were mostly made on an 82" DLP set. At my GFs house she has a 40" LCD Vizio. And when I go over there, either this weekend or next, I will compare the output of her OLED S3 and my Roamio Basic that I bring with me when I go over to her house.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> My comparisons between the TiVos were mostly made on an 82" DLP set. At my GFs house she has a 40" LCD Vizio. And when I go over there, either this weekend or next, I will compare the output of her OLED S3 and my Roamio Basic that I bring with me when I go over to her house.


 You also have to make sure to take HDMI output directly to TV and use 1080i output on Roamio to really see the problem clearly.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

moyekj said:


> You also have to make sure to take HDMI output directly to TV and use 1080i output on Roamio to really see the problem clearly.


I had no problem seeing the problem when using my AVR. It made comparisons between my Blu-ray, Premiere and Roamio very easy.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wizziwig said:


> It's unrelated. The OTA channels I tested don't use that MPEG2 feature. What you refer to as "29/59 bug" is a bug in poorly written playback software on PC's. *The actual streams are perfectly valid MPEG data and contain the necessary picture flags for proper decoding.*.......


What "MPEG2 Feature"? What actual MPEG data streams? The ones you're getting from cable, or are you saying the ones that exhibit this bug have "perfectly valid MPEG data streams"?

That's not how I read it and have experienced it. This is from the page I linked:



HarperVision said:


> ........ *However, sometimes the metadata contained in the video signal is incorrect. Content may be interlaced while being marked as progressive scan, or the content may be progressive scan while being marked as interlaced. This will pose a problem for playback devices that properly look for and adhere to the information in the metadata, as it will cause the improperly marked frame to be handled the wrong way, which results in visible artifacts during playback. ......*


That's why I said maybe it's "provider specific", meaning some cable headends may be using old hardware and/or improperly encoding/flagging their video signals, like maybe yours, while others like mine aren't, so we don't see the issue.

It's not like the cable cos have their ****e together, as we've all seen and experienced as TiVo users! 



wizziwig said:


> ....... I'm not aware of any hardware decoders that were ever affected by that because they are designed by people who understand the MPEG2 specs. Well, at least until this latest generation of Tivos. .......


From what I recall, my old Mac Mini's video graphics chipintel (HD3000?) had this issue and it was clearly seen. What I remember from reading about it was that certain chips displayed this anomaly and others didn't. The playback FW/SW could help mask this some, but it never could repair it. I remember Intel coming out with an updated FW for the chip which helped, but didn't cure.

What I'm trying to say is, maybe TiVo cheapened out some on their choice of graphics chips (ones similar to the intel HD3000?) in the Roamios to save costs, and these have the same "bug"?

Maybe, maybe not, but from what you describe and what I experienced with the Mac mini and researched, they sound similar.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

Interesting thread about Verizon and this bug:

https://forums.verizon.com/t5/FiOS-...9-error-flicker-on-white-HBO-only/td-p/484861



> The incompatibility in Windows Media Center is when it receives video which does not properly indicate its framerate. *We have seen some video encoders used by Cable Operators attempt to detect the framerate (they do this to attempt to minimize bandwidth) and get it wrong *- they end up re-detecting this every few seconds, hence the rapid change between 29.97 and 59.94.


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## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

For those of you experiencing this on a Series 5 box (Roamio or Mini) would you please email me ([email protected]) with the title: "1080i issue" and let me know:

1. Which software version your box is currently running.
2. If you see any evidence of this at regular playback speed.

Thanks,
--Margret


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

I have a 80" Sharp HDTV fed by a Roamio Plus (with v20.5.2) and I looked at CBS (1080I) and ABC (720p) and all letters were very clear. My Roamio sends the TV whatever resolution that was recorded and I let my HDTV do any scaling needed. On this Sharp I see no flicker when going from 720P to 1080I, or with Netflix 1080P/24. My Cable signal is from Comcast Hartford CT.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lessd said:


> I have a 80" Sharp HDTV fed by a Roamio Plus (with v20.5.2) and I looked at CBS (1080I) and ABC (720p) and all letters were very clear. My Roamio sends the TV whatever resolution that was recorded and I let my HDTV do any scaling needed. On this Sharp I see no flicker when going from 720P to 1080I, or with Netflix 1080P/24. My Cable signal is from Comcast Hartford CT.


That TV must have one fantastic scaler/processor. I'm impressed.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lessd said:


> I have a 80" Sharp HDTV fed by a Roamio Plus (with v20.5.2) and I looked at CBS (1080I) and ABC (720p) and all letters were very clear. My Roamio sends the TV whatever resolution that was recorded and I let my HDTV do any scaling needed. On this Sharp I see no flicker when going from 720P to 1080I, or with Netflix 1080P/24. My Cable signal is from Comcast Hartford CT.


 Did you look at the OP samples on the same TV?


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

I love that Margret posted in this thread asking for feedback/examples/confirmation. Just gotta love it, so rare to see a company exec take this kind of interest. And yeah, I'm aware she does it "all the time".


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## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

Just checked my own Penny Dreadful recording, and I do see the issue. I've never thought that credits/fine print looked crisp, but about the same btwn my roamio basic and dish network vip622. In general have found both to be subpar, but put up with it assuming it was compression from TWC and Dish. I'm emailing Margret like she asked.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> That TV must have one fantastic scaler/processor. I'm impressed.


This is the model of the HDTV *Sharp LC-80LE844U 80-Inch 1080p 240Hz LED-Lit 3D Internet TV
*


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

moyekj said:


> Did you look at the OP samples on the same TV?


No, as I am not sure what I would gain, as I don't see the problem on the HD stations I get from Comcast.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lessd said:


> No, as I am not sure what I would gain, as I don't see the problem on the HD stations I get from Comcast.


It might help to show TiVo that there are users who feel this should be addressed. This is not the first time I have felt that my Roamio doesn't have the same picture as my Premiere (or TV when I had clear QAM), but it is the first time I have had something I can use (and share) that proves it is possible. Tivo has asked for feedback. The least we can do is provide it. They don't usually ask. I still think it's awesome you can't see the switch when changing resolutions.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

wizziwig said:


> It will not affect the Tivo generated graphics: EPG, Progress Bar, menus, etc. This is a bug in the video decoding only.
> 
> That drop shadow is most likely the bug. If you had access to another device, you probably would not see it. Agreed that compression artifacts make it difficult for many people to see the type of image problems I'm discussing here.


I do have an old Series 3 OLED box in a closet somewhere. I could test that out. I'm assuming I can just transfer recordings made on the Roamio over to the Series 3?

My understanding that doing so actually transcodes or somehow manipulates the video stream though as the native recordings on the S4/S5 boxes aren't compatible with the S3 and below.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> It might help to show TiVo that there are users who feel this should be addressed. This is not the first time I have felt that my Roamio doesn't have the same picture as my Premiere (or TV when I had clear QAM), but it is the first time I have had something I can use (and share) that proves it is possible. Tivo has asked for feedback. The least we can do is provide it. They don't usually ask. I still think it's awesome you can't see the switch when changing resolutions.


Could the problem be the TiVo scaling as I feed my HDTV without the Roamio doing anything to the signal, it is all done in my HDTV. (A little over two years ago this set cost me a little under $4,000, not inexpensive at that time)

I just tried to get this file, could not find the *download* after clicking on the link.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lessd said:


> I just tried to get this file, could not find the *download* after clicking on the link.


Works for me. If you can accept 7.3MB attachment on a email I will gladly send it to you. Unzipped it will play with WMP. If you can't get it to your TiVo, at least you can see it run. Up to you.

The download is the one that needs you to enter the scrambled numbers, not the one that wants you to buy something.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> Works for me. If you can accept 7.3MB attachment on a email I will gladly send it to you. Unzipped it will play with WMP. If you can't get it to your TiVo, at least you can see it run. Up to you.
> 
> The download is the one that needs you to enter the scrambled numbers, not the one that wants you to buy something.


When I copy the URL http://www.filedropper.com/knbcdtota into the IE or Fox address bar I get blocked for some reason and the URL gets changed to http://www.filedropper.com/ so I can't get to your file, I don't know the size file that Hotmail will accept. PM me if you think Hotmail will accept a 7.3 MB download.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

lessd said:


> When I copy the URL http://www.filedropper.com/knbcdtota into the IE or Fox address bar I get blocked for some reason and the URL gets changed to http://www.filedropper.com/ so I can't get to your file, I don't know the size file that Hotmail will accept. PM me if you think Hotmail will accept a 7.3 MB download.


Same here, cannot download http://www.filedropper.com/knbcdtota

I did download the 3 other files, and pulled them to both my Roamio Pro and XL4. I see no difference between the Roamio Pro and XL4. My largest HDTV is a 37" LCD panel, so maybe that is why. The video clips are much sharper on my PC.

The playback of file "CNN_FIOS.mpg" seems to jerk during the panning, but I assume that is intended for this Ad.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm still not sure I'm seeing the problem. I watched the TNT logo at 1080p and didn't see any flickering. When I stepped through it looked constant. That said, the picture streaming on my iPad looks sharper than my TV does.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I don't know if I'm seeing the problem either.

Are we supposed to be able to see a difference between 1080i and 1080p, in general?

When I watch the sample video, I see a difference. 1080i shows up with gray-ish tops and bottoms to the text (sorta like anti-aliasing), but not nearly as bad as the still images suggest. In 1080p the text appears as solid, clean white.

Is that expected behavior?


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

I updated some of the download links. All the samples should be available for download again.

Glad to see that Tivo has taken interest in the issue. Please everyone try to email your results and feedback if you're seeing the issue I discovered. The more people respond, the more likely we'll get this fixed.

We've all spent a great deal of money on a premium DVR vs. rental, so let's do what we can to make sure it delivers the best image quality possible.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

wizziwig said:


> I updated some of the download links. All the samples should be available for download again.
> 
> Glad to see that Tivo has taken interest in the issue. Please everyone try to email your results and feedback if you're seeing the issue I discovered. The more people respond, the more likely we'll get this fixed.
> 
> We've all spent a great deal of money on a premium DVR vs. rental, so let's do what we can to make sure it delivers the best image quality possible.


Has it been confirmed that this is NOT an issue on the Premiere line?

I assume that since Margret only asked for Mini and Roamio reports that the Premiere line is not affected. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lessd said:


> When I copy the URL http://www.filedropper.com/knbcdtota into the IE or Fox address bar I get blocked for some reason and the URL gets changed to http://www.filedropper.com/ so I can't get to your file, I don't know the size file that Hotmail will accept. PM me if you think Hotmail will accept a 7.3 MB download.


I don't know why the second URL was added. Use http://www.filedropper.com/sho2phdcredits2 and click on the DOWNLOAD in the lower box. The upper Download is for some other software. That file is only the scrolling credits and the only one that I used to see the interlacing issue. It fits on a USB drive that you can plug into your TV. Without other software, like Desktop, kmttg, etc., I don't know how to get it on a TiVo.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

DCIFRTHS said:


> Has it been confirmed that this is NOT an issue on the Premiere line?
> 
> I assume that since Margret only asked for Mini and Roamio reports that the Premiere line is not affected. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


As I posted, I do not see the problem on my Premiere (or PC or Blu-ray or TV with a USB drive). Actually I've never checked my Mini. I'll need to test that today. Post 11.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> I had no problem seeing the problem when using my AVR. It made comparisons between my Blu-ray, Premiere and Roamio very easy.


Joe, thanks for confirming that this issue appears to be isolated to the Series 5 only.

Was your Premiere using the HD or SD Menus? If SD, can you try with HD Menus so that the interface set to 1080i matches what the Roamio looks like.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

wizziwig said:


> Joe, thanks for confirming that this issue appears to be isolated to the Series 5 only.
> 
> Was your Premiere using the HD or SD Menus? If SD, can you try with HD Menus so that the interface set to 1080i matches what the Roamio looks like.


Now, give me a break.  They still have SD menus? Everything is set identical when possible. I did notice that the HDMI cable on the Premiere has ferrite cores and the Roamio is using a Redmere cable. Yamaha RX-V867 does the switching. It's set to not mess with the video.

It was suggested to use 1080p on the Roamio. I had it set that way for a while but my audio dropouts were excessive. Maybe it is my basic Roamio, which is why I changed HDMI cables. With HDMI and 1080i, the audio issue is virtually gone. My Roamio does have a quirk: it never counts RS Corrected errors. Like never. The Premier on the same feed gets a few weekly. But I take a USB drive with the SHO2 mpg file into my TV and it plays fine without the funny lower case "t" and with DD5.1 audio. Since 30 seconds uses 7.3MB, I'd say it a good capture of the content. I sent my information to Margret.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> I don't know why the second URL was added. Use http://www.filedropper.com/sho2phdcredits2 and click on the DOWNLOAD in the lower box. The upper Download is for some other software. That file is only the scrolling credits and the only one that I used to see the interlacing issue. It fits on a USB drive that you can plug into your TV. Without other software, like Desktop, kmttg, etc., I don't know how to get it on a TiVo.


Using the above link all I get is some ADs and an invitation to join their service, no download button.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

lessd said:


> Using the above link all I get is some ADs and an invitation to join their service, no download button.


Check the first post again. I added an additional download mirror on a different file sharing site.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lessd said:


> Using the above link all I get is some ADs and an invitation to join their service, no download button.


I see two prompts: "Download This File" and "Start Download Now". Use the SECOND. Enter the four characters, then click on "Download Now"..


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

At quick glance this morning, the bug appears to be fixed! I will do more definitive tests this weekend by taking some screenshots but I'm 99% certain it is resolved on the Roamio. I updated first post with more info.

Thank you Tivo team and everyone here who submitted a bug report.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wizziwig said:


> At quick glance this morning, the bug appears to be fixed! I will do more definitive tests this weekend by taking some screenshots but I'm 99% certain it is resolved on the Roamio. I updated first post with more info.
> 
> Thank you Tivo team and everyone here who submitted a bug report.


What fixed it?


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## kokishin (Sep 9, 2014)

wizziwig said:


> *Issue appears to be fixed. See my 7-30-15 update to this post below.*
> 
> Please see this post if you would like to submit this bug to Tivo support.
> 
> ...


I have 20.5.2-USA-6-840 on my Roamio Pro. I've had 20.5.2 for over a week but I didn't note the suffix: 20.5.2-USA-x-xxx.

Was there a prior version of 20.5.2?

The reason I ask is that my Pro rebooted the evening of 7-28-15. Perhaps it got a new version of 20.5.2?

Glad to hear that the issue you reported has been fixed.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

wizziwig said:


> At quick glance this morning, the bug appears to be fixed! I will do more definitive tests this weekend by taking some screenshots but I'm 99% certain it is resolved on the Roamio. I updated first post with more info. Thank you Tivo team and everyone here who submitted a bug report.


That's great to hear. Thanks for leading the charge!

It would be nice to know what was causing it, but I doubt we will hear that info from TiVo.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for the post. Something in the update did it, fur sure.

It look just like my Premiere.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

After seeing that my Mini had a pending update, I manually rebooted it. Once the update to 20.5.2-01-6-A92 was applied, it's now also fixed. Both the Mini and Roamio are now indistinguishable from the old Tivo S3 when playing 1080i channels over HDMI. Prior to today's updates, my units were all running 20.4.7a and showing the bug.

I heard nothing from Tivo so can't say what the actual bug was. Just glad they fixed it in such a short time.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Margret posted the 20.5.2 Release Notes on 07/15

Margret responded to this thread on 07/19

SW 20.5.2 was already in release so whatever fix was made, was most likely prior to this entire thread.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I guess this answers a previous question on whether it was a software or hardware issue too.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I guess at least now I don't need to bother with vieiwng those videos on my GFs S3 boxes. We met for a movie last week, this week me are meeting for another movie, and the following week she is coming to my place to celebrate my brothers 54th birthday. So it wouldn't be until 15th or 16th of August that I would be taking my Roamio Basic to her house.


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## wizziwig (Aug 29, 2014)

CoxInPHX said:


> Margret posted the 20.5.2 Release Notes on 07/15
> 
> Margret responded to this thread on 07/19
> 
> SW 20.5.2 was already in release so whatever fix was made, was most likely prior to this entire thread.


Maybe they also release "hotfix" type of patches without upping the main version number? They had the TSN numbers of my units so they could have sent a targeted patch including some small changes to the regular 20.5.2. No way to know unless someone who got 20.5.2 earlier than me had reported it fixed.

I had some extra time today to capture longer video sequences from the Mini and S3. I would now say that they are 90% equivalent. The S3 still has the edge overall. Even without the bug, the Roamio and Mini look slightly softer on fine details in some scenes. If anyone is interested, I can post some pics but you probably won't even notice it unless you're using a very large projection screen.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> I guess this answers a previous question on whether it was a software or hardware issue too.


Not really. You can mask some hardware issues with software. A good example being the 29/59 bug I mentioned earlier.

This could explain why the above poster says it's still not quite as good as his S3.


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## robin50 (Feb 15, 2007)

wizziwig said:


> Maybe they also release "hotfix" type of patches without upping the main version number? They had the TSN numbers of my units so they could have sent a targeted patch including some small changes to the regular 20.5.2. No way to know unless someone who got 20.5.2 earlier than me had reported it fixed.
> 
> I had some extra time today to capture longer video sequences from the Mini and S3. I would now say that they are 90% equivalent. The S3 still has the edge overall. Even without the bug, the Roamio and Mini look slightly softer on fine details in some scenes. If anyone is interested, I can post some pics but you probably won't even notice it unless you're using a very large projection screen.


Please post pics, I am VERY interested. Thanks for spearheading all of this wizziwig.


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