# New box comment in Tivo quarterly report



## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

> "During the quarter, we also continued our progress with our domestic mass distribution efforts. The new DIRECTV TiVo HD DVR is on track for launch next year, and we believe this will provide DIRECTV's 18 million plus subscribers with the best way to experience television."


 I be ready.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I guess we could look at this as an official statement that the DTivo is actually going to happen. They've at least painted themselves into _that _corner by saying this (I still predict a launch date of December 23, 2012). The only question remaining is will it live up to what people expect, or will it not really be anything special or revolutionary. My guess would lean more towards evolutionary instead, but not significantly so.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Gee, "next year" is a rather wide window. I was hoping for a more specific date.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

litzdog911 said:


> Gee, "next year" is a rather wide window. I was hoping for a more specific date.


Plan on late December and be surprised when it comes out on Halloween.


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## SpiritualPoet (Jan 14, 2007)

But 2012 is not next year (nor is it the year after).


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

SpiritualPoet said:


> But 2012 is not next year (nor is it the year after).


True but based on the Comcast TiVo it's not a bad prediction.


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## sdchrgrboy (Mar 9, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> I guess we could look at this as an official statement that the DTivo is actually going to happen. They've at least painted themselves into _that _corner by saying this (I still predict a launch date of December 23, 2012). The only question remaining is will it live up to what people expect, or will it not really be anything special or revolutionary. My guess would lean more towards evolutionary instead, but not significantly so.


I highly doubt that it will be released on a Sunday.


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## cam330 (Sep 28, 2004)

Yeah, I think TyroneShoes' prediction was tongue-in-cheek. That date is two days after the supposed "Mayan End Of The World" scenario.


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## wdave (Jul 16, 2000)

Or they mean their fiscal year, which ends Jan 31, 2011.


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## Cutty (Sep 8, 2007)

As someone who does this as a career, I can tell you that the quarterly conference calls are usually incredibly accurate in terms of information. When dealing with the analysts, this is not the place for rhetoric and speculation and companies are very careful not to mislead (even unintentionally) those who rate and follow their stock. I strongly suspect TIVO will deliver; it's just a matter of when. 

Additionally, if the plan were to deliver in the first half of the year, or anytime soon, they'd be promoting it heavily in their analysts discussions. After all, people buy stock based on the future and anything exciting in the short term is typically promoted for the obvious reasons. Simply put, if were a near term deal, they'd say so....Something like "first half of 10" and etc. Since they don't say, I would speculate that it's late 2010. However, they don't want to come right out and say so, and instead want to dangle the carrot.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

Cutty, I suspect you're correct. If it were still on track for early 2010, they would have been more bullish in their analyst call. I fear it's still slipping, so that's why they just said "2010" without anything more specific. Too bad.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Cutty said:


> As someone who does this as a career, I can tell you that the quarterly conference calls are usually incredibly accurate in terms of information. When dealing with the analysts, this is not the place for rhetoric and speculation and companies are very careful not to mislead (even unintentionally) those who rate and follow their stock...


That would certainly explain why the HD DVR+ appeared on the scene a year before the software was actually viable--they set a date (an unmeetable impractical one at that) and then had to deliver. Too bad the software delivered about 3 or 4 quarters later (water the bridge--the HR2x is OK now, and all is well).

But that leads into the question of whether the Tivo will deliver on the promise, or will it be the same old box, and will it even be viable for the first 6 months.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

<Crosses Fingers>


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## Cutty (Sep 8, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> But that leads into the question of whether the Tivo will deliver on the promise, or will it be the same old box, and will it even be viable for the first 6 months.


I'm not sure if it will be some knock your socks off new technology that blows techies away, but I feel quite sure it will be a solid TIVO device that restores many of the lost options with DTV models. And potentially most importantly, it will work as designed and be very stable...A huge upside to those early HR units.

I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if it were the first half of 2010....or TIVO would have said so. Clearly, if this was the plan, they'd try to generate some excitement via their financial update(s) (to the analysts).

It wouldn't surprise me if it's less of a TIVO technology issue and more of a DTV financial issue....i.e. DTV is stalling. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think the re-emergence of the TIVO / DTV relationship has more to do with the DISH lawsuit than DTV wishing to promote the value of a TIVO partnership. Could DTV possibly be waiting out an appeal (by Dish) while throwing TIVO a bone?

Something to think about.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Cutty said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if it's less of a TIVO technology issue and more of a DTV financial issue....i.e. DTV is stalling. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think the re-emergence of the TIVO / DTV relationship has more to do with the DISH lawsuit than DTV wishing to promote the value of a TIVO partnership. Could DTV possibly be waiting out an appeal (by Dish) while throwing TIVO a bone?
> 
> Something to think about.


Honestly this whole new Tivo/DirecTV receiver was just a side deal in the greater contract renewal which includes a "no sue" clause. DirecTV finally said "fine, if you think your box is so great and everyone will switch then prove it. Build one, we'll pass all the costs along to the customer instead of subsidizing it as in the past".

No lose situation for DirecTV. If it fails or never comes to market DirecTV doesn't lose a thing other then some up front development money to Tivo and DirecTV still gets what they really want, support extension and can't be sued by Tivo. If it does come to market and is a great success then DirecTV wins as well, more money for them. So why not let Tivo make an attempt? They can't lose. Tivo however has a *lot* to lose if they never bring it to market or it's not a huge success.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> Honestly this whole new Tivo/DirecTV receiver was just a side deal in the greater contract renewal which includes a "no sue" clause. DirecTV finally said "fine, if you think your box is so great and everyone will switch then prove it. Build one, we'll pass all the costs along to the customer instead of subsidizing it as in the past".


Directv had to renew the contract or shutdown a million active Directivo's. I don't believe Tivo is "building a box." I think it will run on the new HR24 that Directv is building. Tivo is just writing software to work with it. Until Directv has the box ready and their own software ready, the box will not be released.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

Cutty said:


> As someone who does this as a career, I can tell you that the quarterly conference calls are usually incredibly accurate in terms of information. When dealing with the analysts, this is not the place for rhetoric and speculation and companies are very careful not to mislead (even unintentionally) those who rate and follow their stock. I strongly suspect TIVO will deliver; it's just a matter of when.
> 
> Additionally, if the plan were to deliver in the first half of the year, or anytime soon, they'd be promoting it heavily in their analysts discussions. After all, people buy stock based on the future and anything exciting in the short term is typically promoted for the obvious reasons. Simply put, if were a near term deal, they'd say so....Something like "first half of 10" and etc. Since they don't say, I would speculate that it's late 2010. However, they don't want to come right out and say so, and instead want to dangle the carrot.


TiVo dangled the carrot in the 10-31-08 3Q09 conference call:

"We also recently announced a new agreement with DirecTV, a partner with which we have had a very successful history. Expected in the second half of next year, DirecTV will market a version of TiVo built on DirecTVs broadband enabled HD DVR platform, allowing DirecTV customers to use a TiVo DVR with all of DirecTVs high definition programming."


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> ...I think it will run on the new HR24 that Directv is building. Tivo is just writing software to work with it...


Sort of a moot point, since what is important is how it performs, rather than whose platform it is. Customers don't watch their DVRs, they watch what comes out of the back of them. I don't care if it endorses Adolf Hitler or is badged as a "Jeffrey Dahmer" model Tivo, as long as it delivers.

One thing I think they should do, simply to take the focus off of how similar it will probably be feature-wise or performance-wise to what is already available, is _*overbuild *_enough HP into it to allow 3 simultaneous recordings, and to also keep it snappy and not bogged down, performance-wise. 3 recording paths is the kind of sizzle they need to set it apart from garden-variety DVRs, all of which can do dual recording by now. If they dazzle us with a whiz-bang feature like that, it will go a long way towards forgiving whatever faults the new box has, and will elevate it into the premium category and give it an image of being revolutionary, even if it really isn't.

So if they have that sort of idea, maybe the point isn't moot after all, because to do that they need the hardware to have that capability, and if its just a Tivo port to existing hardware, more HP is probably not on the menu.

The other "killer app" feature I would like to see is a common playlist. IOW, If I have more than one DVR networked at GB speed, they should share a common single playlist, and allow viewing of any program on either DVR to stream to the other at playback, as if it were actually on that DVR. My problem with 4 DVRs is "where is that program recorded?" and "what room do I have to be in to watch it" (not really-all in one room, but otherwise a common problem for many).

We all know that is the future of DVRs, at least until local storage is replaced with VOD. It's time for Tivo to take the lead and take us there, and this would be the perfect opportunity.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Cutty said:


> I'm not sure if it will be some knock your socks off new technology that blows techies away, but I feel quite sure it will be a solid TIVO device that restores many of the lost options with DTV models. And potentially most importantly, it will work as designed and be very stable...A huge upside to those early HR units...


I think your posts have been astute and mostly right-on. But this sounds like wishful thinking more than something I feel sure about.

I lost faith in Tivo (but never really fell out of love ) when they bungled the DTivo software up rev from v3.1.5 to v6.0, which broke more than it fixed. Up until that point they were gods who could do no wrong in a universe of otherwise bumbling DVR programmers. But that fiasco revealed that they were just as capable of screwing the pooch as is anyone else.

And they never completely fixed it. There are folks today who still have nag screens saying "its been 1473 days since an update..." who will not allow v6.x, and for very good reason. I am one of them. I allowed one HR10 to up rev in good faith that Tivo could do no wrong, but FFX1 and slo-mo are still broken for CBS and NBC on that one, while the one at 3.1.5 handles it just fine. The one at v6.4 also spontaneously reboots more often.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> One thing I think they should do, simply to take the focus off of how similar it will probably be feature-wise or performance-wise to what is already available, is _*overbuild *_enough HP into it to allow 3 simultaneous recordings, and to also keep it snappy and not bogged down, performance-wise. 3 recording paths is the kind of sizzle they need to set it apart from garden-variety DVRs, all of which can do dual recording by now. If they dazzle us with a whiz-bang feature like that, it will go a long way towards forgiving whatever faults the new box has, and will elevate it into the premium category and give it an image of being revolutionary, even if it really isn't.
> 
> The other "killer app" feature I would like to see is a common playlist. IOW, If I have more than one DVR networked at GB speed, they should share a common single playlist, and allow viewing of any program on either DVR to stream to the other at playback, as if it were actually on that DVR. My problem with 4 DVRs is "where is that program recorded?" and "what room do I have to be in to watch it" (not really-all in one room, but otherwise a common problem for many).


If the hardware did support 3 simultaneous recordings then the Directv version would also support 3 simultaneous recordings so where is the Tivo advantage? But since it would require 3 SAT tuners that seems unlikely.

I have the same problem with mutliple DVR's. With a wife and 2 kids my problem is always which DVR will I get to watch tonight and what shows do I have recorded on IT.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

shibby191 said:


> No lose situation for DirecTV. If it fails or never comes to market DirecTV doesn't lose a thing other then some up front development money to Tivo and DirecTV still gets what they really want, support extension and can't be sued by Tivo.


Not true. DirecTV has committed to pay development fees, minimum subscription fees, and promotional expenses once the box is delivered. They don't recover those expenses unless they move the boxes to meet the numbers.

The only scenario where DTV isn't impacted by failure of a new DTV TiVo is if TiVo simply fails to deliver a product through no fault of DTV. If TiVo is unable to deliver a product because of DTV delays they have the option to collect fees through February 2012 and terminate the entire agreement.



HiDefGator said:


> Directv had to renew the contract or shutdown a million active Directivo's. I don't believe Tivo is "building a box." I think it will run on the new HR24 that Directv is building. Tivo is just writing software to work with it. Until Directv has the box ready and their own software ready, the box will not be released.


It has been clear all along that the hardware would be a DirecTV box. It will probably have a TiVo specific front bezel and TiVo remote but it will be pretty much the same internally as one of DirecTV's DVR Plus models.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> It has been clear all along that the hardware would be a DirecTV box. It will probably have a TiVo specific front bezel and TiVo remote but it will be pretty much the same internally as one of DirecTV's DVR Plus models.


I tend to agree with that. It makes no sence to spend a lot of money to develop another combo box when all the basic hardware is already in place. Don't forget how long it takes for TiVo to develop new hardware - it is not an easy task. Integrating S3 with DirecTV is not an easy task either. TiVo ported software to Comcast boxes and most likely they will port software to DirecTV boxes. That would allow TiVo to download software to the millions of boxes already in place. It is much easier to convince somebody to try new interface for few dollars a month extra instead of asking people to buy or lease a "premium" box.
I for one have all the DVRs I need, I will not pay for another DVR unless one of my DVRs breaks. But if software download is available, I may give it a try. I can always revert back if I don't like it.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> *Directv had to renew the contract or shutdown a million active Directivo's. * I don't believe Tivo is "building a box." I think it will run on the new HR24 that Directv is building. Tivo is just writing software to work with it. Until Directv has the box ready and their own software ready, the box will not be released.


never saw that posted anywhere - got a link for it?


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

nrc said:


> Not true. DirecTV has committed to pay development fees, minimum subscription fees, and promotional expenses once the box is delivered. They don't recover those expenses unless they move the boxes to meet the numbers.
> 
> The only scenario where DTV isn't impacted by failure of a new DTV TiVo is if TiVo simply fails to deliver a product through no fault of DTV. If TiVo is unable to deliver a product because of DTV delays they have the option to collect fees through February 2012 and terminate the entire agreement.
> 
> It has been clear all along that the hardware would be a DirecTV box. It will probably have a TiVo specific front bezel and TiVo remote but it will be pretty much the same internally as one of DirecTV's DVR Plus models.


Don;t think it will have any identifying external features like a bezel or a special remote, suspect that it will be stock Directv across the board, poor ROI to have to maintain seperate inventory and parts suppliers for something that is supposedly alike in every respect except for the code.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

nrc said:


> Not true. DirecTV has committed to pay development fees, minimum subscription fees, and promotional expenses once the box is delivered. They don't recover those expenses unless they move the boxes to meet the numbers.


True but it's just a few million dollars at most in a loss. With the amount of profit they are making it would be just a small bump and since DirecTV hasn't promoted or talked up the Tivo box at all to investors I'd think Wall Street wouldn't really care either. So while losing money on a failed project is never good, it really wouldn't hurt them that much. Nice tax write off.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> The other "killer app" feature I would like to see is a common playlist. IOW, If I have more than one DVR networked at GB speed, they should share a common single playlist, and allow viewing of any program on either DVR to stream to the other at playback, as if it were actually on that DVR. My problem with 4 DVRs is "where is that program recorded?" and "what room do I have to be in to watch it" (not really-all in one room, but otherwise a common problem for many).


Already exists on the HR2x platform......cough...cough....CE testing....cough.....cough.....


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## KSbugeater (Jan 26, 2006)

Dish 722's can record 3 programs, as long as there is at least one SAT program and one OTA program. So much for the glitz of 3 simul. recordings...

BTW, I am a 5-year D* customer... but I was at my parents' over the weekend and the 3 recording feature saved us...

I am in the camp of nearly complete contentment with my HR2x's (I have 4 now, and 1 HR10) but would be curious about a new HD DirecTiVo.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

sjberra said:


> never saw that posted anywhere - got a link for it?


I don't but it has been discussed in the past. If the contract with Tivo expired how could Directv keep the old boxes that only run Tivo software active? Who would do maintenance work on them? How big of a check should they send Tivo each month if there is no active contract?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> True but it's just a few million dollars at most in a loss. With the amount of profit they are making it would be just a small bump and since DirecTV hasn't promoted or talked up the Tivo box at all to investors I'd think Wall Street wouldn't really care either. So while losing money on a failed project is never good, it really wouldn't hurt them that much. Nice tax write off.


I suspect Directv viewed the Tivo related expenses as the maximum IP license fee they could have to pay. For every new DirecTivo they sell the IP license fee actually goes down for them.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I don't but it has been discussed in the past. If the contract with Tivo expired how could Directv keep the old boxes that only run Tivo software active? Who would do maintenance work on them? How big of a check should they send Tivo each month if there is no active contract?


From TiVo's 04-15-05 Annual Report:

"Our current development agreement with DIRECTV expires in February 2007. Afterwards, while *DIRECTV will have the option to continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us*, it will not be able to add new DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service unless DIRECTV elects either to purchase a royalty-bearing technology license from us or to renew or replace our current agreement."


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

"Our current development agreement with DIRECTV expires in February 2007. Afterwards, while DIRECTV will have the option to continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us, it will not be able to add new DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service unless DIRECTV elects either to purchase a royalty-bearing technology license from us or to renew or replace our current agreement."

This sure sounds like there would be no software fixes or upgrades without a license deal. How long could they keep a million plus users happy without both? That's a lot of hardware expense to replace them all. I still say Directv needed to sign a new license because without one they would have ended up with a lot of boxes to replace in a short timeframe.


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## Curtis (Dec 2, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> This sure sounds like there would be no software fixes or upgrades without a license deal.


I can't find that anywhere in the quote. If that were true, it would have been in TiVo's interest to mention it.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Curtis said:


> I can't find that anywhere in the quote. If that were true, it would have been in TiVo's interest to mention it.


It says they could keep running the current boxes and pay Tivo nothing. Do you imagine Tivo would make and test updates for free?


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Curtis said:


> From TiVo's 04-15-05 Annual Report:
> 
> "Our current development agreement with DIRECTV expires in February 2007. Afterwards, while *DIRECTV will have the option to continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us*, it will not be able to add new DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service unless DIRECTV elects either to purchase a royalty-bearing technology license from us or to renew or replace our current agreement."


based on this post - a check for 0.00


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

HiDefGator said:


> It says they could keep running the current boxes and pay Tivo nothing. Do you imagine Tivo would make and test updates for free?


But how many updates have there recently been? Pretty much none the past 2 yrs or so. If something major had come up DirecTV could have certainly contracted to Tivo to provide a fix.

But it really doesn't matter does it, they signed a new deal with continued support for the rapidly dwindling DirecTivo's, more importantly continued the no sue clause until 2018 (which is when most Tivo patents run out by the way, funny how that works out) and as a bonus Tivo gets to spend some money on developing a new box.


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

sjberra said:


> Don;t think it will have any identifying external features like a bezel or a special remote, suspect that it will be stock Directv across the board, ..............


I respectfully disagree with your prediction. To me that would be the most ridiculous marketing screwup I could ever witness. Nothing on the front bezel or even on the <box> package it is shipped in? I would think that's marketing 101. But I guess we will have to wait if and when it comes out.

Is there a TiVo logo on the Comcast box? Is there a TiVo Comcast remote?


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Since the firmware in the box will be different I could see it having a different remote and logo's on the front. To prevent confusion at Best Buy the package it comes in will probably also be different.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

sjberra said:


> Don;t think it will have any identifying external features like a bezel or a special remote, suspect that it will be stock Directv across the board, poor ROI to have to maintain seperate inventory and parts suppliers for something that is supposedly alike in every respect except for the code.


No way TiVo would allow it to not have a TiVo peanut remote. There will definitely be branding involved.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

rainwater said:


> No way TiVo would allow it to not have a TiVo peanut remote. There will definitely be branding involved.


We can hope they go back to the Sony remote.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Kablemodem said:


> We can hope they go back to the Sony remote.


I hope that they will use DirecTV RF remote with color buttons for the shortcuts. IR and peanut are so archaic.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> I hope that they will use DirecTV RF remote with color buttons for the shortcuts. IR and peanut are so archaic.


The peanut design is one of the best remote designs of all time and every decent remote that has arrived since has copied some or all of its design features with varying degrees of fail.

I was searching for the original agreement which was vague on the topic but implied that a TiVo specific remote and front panel were part of the deal. I came across this more recent filing:


> 4. Hardware . All DIRECTV TE Receivers must include a TiVo logo on the front bezel of the hardware.
> 
> 5. Remote Control . The remote control shall be based on the TiVo "peanut" design and have a TiVo branded key which navigates to the TiVo Central screen and the Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down logos along with TiVo-specific button colors. The remote control will have DIRECTV branding in the distribution partner branding location. If TiVo is not managing development of the remote with TiVo's preferred remote control vendor [*] , then TiVo will provide specifications and additional requirements for the remote control.


http://sec.edgar-online.com/tivo-inc/10-q-quarterly-report/2009/06/09/section21.aspx

It's a pleasure to disappoint you on this. You may now bluster about how you don't need no steenking TiVo anyhow.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

codespy said:


> Is there a TiVo logo on the Comcast box? Is there a TiVo Comcast remote?


Comcast provides a Comcast specific TiVo peanut remote. The TiVo software is downloaded to the subscriber's box so there is no identifier on the box.










The Comcast remote is adds some Comcast specific buttons so it's possible there will be similar add-ons like the color buttons for the DirecTV version.

If DTV customers are lucky they'll get a version of the S3 remote which is the ne plus ultra of remotes for television.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> It's a pleasure to disappoint you on this. You may now bluster about how you don't need no steenking TiVo anyhow.


I can live with peanut as long as it has RF and color buttons for shortcuts.
I'm not sure about latest S3 remote but after 10 years of use I still hate original design - I can never tell which side is up.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rainwater said:


> No way TiVo would allow it to not have a TiVo peanut remote. There will definitely be branding involved.


That remote was the first thing I trashed when I recieved the first HR10 box. Could not stand it.

It would be a bad business decision to add any "custom hardware" to a standard configuration, raises the cost of development, inventory, shipping and support, that is unless they make the remote and addition purchase option like the NFL remotes, then it would be a decent addition to the profit margin. Suspect "branding" will consist of the statup logo screen only

Kind of suspect from the post earlier this year that TIVO will have very little input on the hardware platform other the suggestions for technical requirements of their code, given the current status of TIVO, Directv does not need Tivo, but TIVO needs Directv badly


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

samo said:


> I can live with peanut as long as it has RF and color buttons for shortcuts.
> I'm not sure about latest S3 remote but after 10 years of use I still hate original design - I can never tell which side is up.


The S3 glow remote addresses that issue by changing the balance of the remote slightly and adding texture to the bottom half of the remote.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

sjberra said:


> That remote was the first thing I trashed when I recieved the first HR10 box. Could not stand it.


That may be your opinion, but providing a box and software without TiVo's branding would be foolish for marketing purposes. I'm not even sure why this is a discussion. TiVo isn't going to go into this new deal without the ability to brand their product.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

nrc said:


> The peanut design is one of the best remote designs of all time and every decent remote that has arrived since has copied some or all of its design features with varying degrees of fail.


LOL. When I got my first stand alone Tivo in the year 2000 I got a Sony specifically because it *wasn't* the peanut remote.  I always hated that peanut remote and still do. From my friends that had Tivo back in the day (none of them do anymore) it was about split 50-50 on those that like the peanut and those that hated it.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

rainwater said:


> That may be your opinion, but providing a box and software without TiVo's branding would be foolish for marketing purposes. I'm not even sure why this is a discussion. TiVo isn't going to go into this new deal without the ability to brand their product.


to provide a "box with branding" would indicate that there will be a special unit that you can call and pay a lease acquistion fee on and a additional monthly re-occurikng fee, all indications form the numerous discussion over the last year indciate that it will be loaded onto a generic HRXX box, be it existing or under development for both the HR series software and the TIVO software.

Tivo can brand their software in the menues and on all the GUI displays, there is 0 need to add it to a box, but then again maybe TIVO will mail out a decal that a end user and adhere to the generic hardware to show they have paid extra for the software. I doubt that TIVO has any input on the hardware outside of true compatiblity concerns and not for the eye candy on the box


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

sjberra said:


> to provide a "box with branding" would indicate that there will be a special unit that you can call and pay a lease acquistion fee on and a additional monthly re-occurikng fee, all indications form the numerous discussion over the last year indciate that it will be loaded onto a generic HRXX box, be it existing or under development for both the HR series software and the TIVO software.


They may use the same hardware platform, but there is no confirmation it will be available to existing boxes. Either way, they will atleast include a peanut remote in the package.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

sjberra said:


> It would be a bad business decision to add any "custom hardware" to a standard configuration, raises the cost of development, inventory, shipping and support, that is unless they make the remote and addition purchase option like the NFL remotes, then it would be a decent addition to the profit margin. Suspect "branding" will consist of the statup logo screen only


See the text of my link above. There will be a TiVo remote and the TiVo logo will appear "as it does on the currently shipping retail TiVo release" in all screens that normally have a TiVo logo.



> Kind of suspect from the post earlier this year that TIVO will have very little input on the hardware platform other the suggestions for technical requirements of their code, given the current status of TIVO, Directv does not need Tivo, but TIVO needs Directv badly


It has been clear from the start that the hardware platform would be a DirecTV provided platform. I don't think TiVo cares about that as long as it's a capable platform. They don't make money from the hardware.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

sjberra said:


> Tivo can brand their software in the menues and on all the GUI displays, there is 0 need to add it to a box, but then again maybe TIVO will mail out a decal that a end user and adhere to the generic hardware to show they have paid extra for the software. I doubt that TIVO has any input on the hardware outside of true compatiblity concerns and not for the eye candy on the box


You're not paying attention. "All DIRECTV TE Receivers must include a TiVo logo on the front bezel of the hardware."

It's pretty clear that this will be a specific piece of hardware sold...err...leased specifically as a TiVo unit. It may look identical to a DVR Plus under the cover but it will have a TiVo logo on the front panel and a peanut remote in the box.


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## Athenian (Jan 14, 2004)

samo said:


> I hope that they will use DirecTV RF remote with color buttons for the shortcuts. IR and peanut are so archaic.


I HATE the DirecTV remote. You have to look at it to do anything and the buttons are not logically arranged. I would be very happy with just a backlit peanut that supports PIP using any input the user wants.


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## Daniel (Feb 25, 2001)

I personally would love it if it came with an RF TiVo peanut remote. Since they are apparently using the same internals as the DirecTV box, which supports RF, having that same capability from a TiVo peanut, without having to add third party transmitters and blasters, etc., would be great.


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## GKevinK (Mar 10, 2003)

Athenian said:


> I HATE the DirecTV remote. You have to look at it to do anything and the buttons are not logically arranged. I would be very happy with just a backlit peanut that supports PIP using any input the user wants.


The DirecTV remote drives me crazy. These days I use the HR-21 almost exclusively for football, which means that I am constantly using the 30 second advance. Compared to my regular TiVos, this advance often overshoots (taking me a second or three into the next play instead of just before it) - so I have to use the backup. Sitting *right between* those buttons (therefore easily pressed accidentally) is one that completely stops playback and frequently seems to also lose my playback point, which causes a major disruption while watching a game.


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## KSbugeater (Jan 26, 2006)

GKevinK said:


> The DirecTV remote drives me crazy. Sitting *right between* those buttons (therefore easily pressed accidentally) is one that completely stops playback and frequently seems to also lose my playback point, which causes a major disruption while watching a game.


Not to sound combative, as I use both the D* remote and the peanut everyday, but twice in the last few days (and none in the years before that) I accidentally hit the TV power button on the peanut when meaning to hit the replay button, doing exactly what you describe above, trying to get to the beginning of a football play. To me, the TV power button is a bigger headache than the STOP button as it means I have to wait for the TV to come back on, pause the show/game, use my TV remote to reinstitute PIP, etc. I have not lost my playback point on a STOP since the very early days of the HR20.

Speaking of PIP, I currently use an HR20 and HR10 in tandem with my 5-year-old RPTV and have them hooked up redundantly so switching one from the big screen to PIP can be done with 2 remote clicks. Unfortunately, the TV may be on its last legs and the TV manufacturers have discarded multi-source PIP functionality like yesterday's bagel. Is there any chance the new DirecTiVo would have PIP built-in like the dish 722, etc?


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## codespy (Jan 7, 2006)

Thanks NRC for finding the info. It backs up what I have believed from the get-go. Unfortunately it does not appear to hold enough water for some other posters around here, which puzzles me why they are here in the first place since they hate TiVo so much......even their remotes.

I will also state that with TiVo remotes, I don't have to look to press buttons. With the DirecTV branded remotes, I virtually always have to look at it before I press. That's all I need to say about the remote topic.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Curtis said:


> From TiVo's 04-15-05 Annual Report:
> 
> "Our current development agreement with DIRECTV expires in February 2007. Afterwards, while *DIRECTV will have the option to continue to service the existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service without further payment to us*, it will not be able to add new DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service unless DIRECTV elects either to purchase a royalty-bearing technology license from us or to renew or replace our current agreement."


Hmmmm. Are not HR10's bought off eBay and activated on existing accounts considered "new DIRECTV receivers with Tivo service"? Or are they? They are technically "old" from the standpoint of model design, yet "new" from the standpoint of activation. Does this imply that since DTV activates old HR10's that they also have renewed the royalty-bearing license, at least for those newly-activated?


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

HiDefGator said:


> If the hardware did support 3 simultaneous recordings then the Directv version would also support 3 simultaneous recordings so where is the Tivo advantage? But since it would require 3 SAT tuners that seems unlikely...


The sat tuner module is a mass-produced item that probably costs the manufacturer about 8 bucks. The cost is to write that capability into the software and make it work; but since they are writing the software anyway, there would be virtually little added cost. The Tivo advantage would be only if the hardware were Tivo hardware, as I stated earlier.

As we know, the current Tivo and DTV DVRs (as do all other DVRs) seem to have about enough horsepower to handle an average task load, and bog down on a day when the seas get a bit choppy. I say OVERBUILD it, horsepower-wise, and use the HP to add features, speed, and reliability (not to mention the ability to burn through heavy task loads of multiple recording and playback while keeping user response snappy) which eventually buys them cache, sizzle, and reputation, which perpetuates the Tivo mythology (which is currently in serious danger of being unmasked as ordinary). It would be a tiny investment which could be central to producing a legendary DVR that would set the bar for the next decade.



KSbugeater said:


> Dish 722's can record 3 programs, as long as there is at least one SAT program and one OTA program. So much for the glitz of 3 simul. recordings...


Doesn't really matter if they don't know how to market it. They seem to have managed to have kept this a huge secret instead. Nice work.

The fact that few have OTA capability makes this very limited and very cumbersome (most subs don't even know that one recording is sat vs. OTA and their eyes rapidly glass over if you try to explain that limitation). Plus, its from DISH, who has no cache to begin with, and are perceived as DBS cheap.

Sell the sizzle, not the steak; done properly, Tivo could make this a marketing coup, just like Apple gives the impression that they invented MP3 players with the iPod (they didn't, they just made the first one that made sense and that people wanted, vertically integrated it with the first successful cash-cow music download service, and marketed it so that the "buzz" and the "desire" fed off of each other).


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> Hmmmm. Are not HR10's bought off eBay and activated on existing accounts considered "new DIRECTV receivers with Tivo service"? Or are they? They are technically "old" from the standpoint of model design, yet "new" from the standpoint of activation. Does this imply that since DTV activates old HR10's that they also have renewed the royalty-bearing license, at least for those newly-activated?


The text you quoted is old - the agreement was renewed since then, going to at least 2012.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

codespy said:


> Thanks NRC for finding the info. It backs up what I have believed from the get-go. Unfortunately it does not appear to hold enough water for some other posters around here, which puzzles me why they are here in the first place since they hate TiVo so much......even their remotes.
> 
> I will also state that with TiVo remotes, I don't have to look to press buttons. With the DirecTV branded remotes, I virtually always have to look at it before I press. That's all I need to say about the remote topic.


While I don't particularly like the DirecTV remote, I certainly don't have to look at the buttons to know what to do. Then again, that is true of *any* remote once you use it exclusively for a while. The only time I use it is for Sunday Ticket watching since the colored buttons get used a lot for the interactive features. Other then that there is this thing called a universal remote like the Harmony or MX series. Any stock remote gets tossed into my remote graveyard the second it enters my house, never to be used. No reason to have to use either Tivo or DirecTV remote.  Only exception is my NFL DirecTV remote for ST.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

codespy said:


> ... it does not appear to hold enough water for some other posters around here, which puzzles me why they are here in the first place since they hate TiVo so much


Careful you don't attach a name to that criticism. That would be a bannable offense; has happened.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> While I don't particularly like the DirecTV remote, I certainly don't have to look at the buttons to know what to do. Then again, that is true of *any* remote once you use it exclusively for a while...Other then that there is this thing called a universal remote like the Harmony or MX series...


I tried to embrace Unis and learning remotes, even paid $100 to get the first learning remote (GE) available, back over 30 years ago.

The best learning remote ever by a mile (if you look at its good points only) was the white T-shaped CL9 or Cloud Nine remote that Steve Wozniak produced for a short time around 1990. It had (an unheard of at the time) 200 storage locations, and a clever paging system that meant it only had 9 buttons but still was exceptionally ergonomic (that one was about $250, or $200 over anything else available at that time). Unfortunately, there was a lot of cocaine in silicon valley at the time, and CL9 folded. More unfortunately, if you dropped this remote from the height of 1 foot onto a carpet, you got to spend 3 hours reprogramming it, that is unless you owned a Mac (not many in 1990) and the proper software to store the codes offline. So it was like a gorgeous girlfriend that occasionally cheated on you.

I eventually realized that the entire idea of a unified remote was seriously flawed. There is a point of diminishing returns regarding the real estate available and the number of buttons needed (and how much real estate each takes up) and how important they are. About the time you get half the buttons you need you reach a point where it is a chore to get to any of them easily, and that problem grows exponentially with the addition of more components. If you have more than 4 or 5, it is much easier (easy for me to say with no "wife factor" to get in the way) to just keep a dozen original remotes at hand.

As for the peanut, I've always loved it, but it does have the issue of "am I holding it right-side up?" which on early Tivos sometimes resulted in me flushing the buffer by accident. I finally have gotten to the place where I can tell by feel if the remote is inverted or not. But it is still a great remote, and one that you can learn to use without looking at the buttons, fairly quickly, something not said often about any other remote (CL9 excluded).

But I also am to the point where I don't need to look at the DVR+ remote, which is also a good remote, even if it does suffer from the tired double-grouping of functions seen on most remotes. Maybe that's because it is similar to DISH remotes, which I used for 8 years. The features on the DVR+, especially those using the colored buttons, are what elevates this remote above most others.

But some like chocolate, some vanilla. Tivo would do well to keep the peanut, as most folks like it better than most other remotes, even if a few don't (there are a few who hate Tivo, too, and I can understand that, because back in the day of owning both Tivo and Replay, there were a lot of reasons to hate Tivo, which eventually evolved into the best platform available, at least until lately). The peanut remote is iconic enough just by itself to be a universal image advertisement campaign for Tivo, just for the recognizability factor alone. Tivo would also do well to have stayed with one iconic box style over the years rather than having 50-odd different versions, which means the iconicism of the peanut was probably an accident, rather than a well-thought-out design plan.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

bigpuma said:


> True but based on the Comcast TiVo it's not a bad prediction.


They have to port Tivo on top of those Motorola boxes, which aren't even close to the Tivo Hardware Reference Standard.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

plazman30 said:


> They have to port Tivo on top of those Motorola boxes, which aren't even close to the Tivo Hardware Reference Standard.


True, but the new DirecTiVo was originally scheduled to be released at the end of 2009 and now it looks like it has been pushed to the second half of 2010. So far it is following in the footsteps of the Comcast TiVo box. Let's see if they have anything to reveal at CES.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Until Directv has the box ready to go it isn't going to matter what software Tivo has ready. There still hasn't been a peep out of Directv about the new box.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Sorry, that statement makes no sense. The hardware and software are being developed together.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

stevel said:


> Sorry, that statement makes no sense. The hardware and software are being developed together.


Directv is making a box for themselves. They are also making their own software to go on that box. Until Directv has the box ready to ship it won't matter if Tivo's software that also runs on that box is ready or not. For all we know Tivo has their stuff done, tested, and is sitting on a shelf waiting for the box to be ready for production.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> Directv is making a box for themselves. They are also making their own software to go on that box. Until Directv has the box ready to ship it won't matter if Tivo's software that also runs on that box is ready or not. For all we know Tivo has their stuff done, tested, and is sitting on a shelf waiting for the box to be ready for production.


predict that the new hardware with the directv software ships a long time before the tivo unit. CES this year will be interesting to see if a functional unit is displayed, a cardboard knockup or nothing at all


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

sjberra said:


> predict that the new hardware with the directv software ships a long time before the tivo unit. CES this year will be interesting to see if a functional unit is displayed, a cardboard knockup or nothing at all


Some folks are suggesting that it might not be cardboard colored...

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17029/1/


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

fasTLane said:


> Some folks are suggesting that it might not be cardboard colored...
> 
> http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17029/1/


What's laughable about that article is that DirecTV isn't even going to be at CES. LOL Ooops.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> What's laughable about that article is that DirecTV isn't even going to be at CES. LOL Ooops.


why do you think the url is *FUD*zilla.com, to bad they don;t verify things /rofl.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> What's laughable about that article is that DirecTV isn't even going to be at CES. LOL Ooops.


They can still show the DevilTV box at TiVo's booth.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

netringer said:


> They can still show the DevilTV box at TiVo's booth.


the artical claims directv presence, not just a box being shown

"some shadow dwellers are telling of a *big showing by DirecTV* at CES"

no where does it state different.

Find it doubtful that Directv would allow TIVO to introduce a new device for Directv with out a large presence of their people onsite. Not the corporate way


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

sjberra said:


> why do you think the url is *FUD*zilla.com, to bad they don;t verify things /rofl.


HDGuru is the origin apparently.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

netringer said:


> They can still show the DevilTV box at TiVo's booth.


No way I see Tivo getting to show the new HR24 if Directv isn't showing it. As far as I know Directv hasn't even talked about it publicly yet.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

FWIW, Fudzilla was started by Fuad Abazovic, a former editor at the UK tech site The Inquirer. Fudzilla was his nickname at The Inq.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> No way I see Tivo getting to show the new HR24 if Directv isn't showing it. As far as I know Directv hasn't even talked about it publicly yet.


True, the new DTV TiVo is a a DirecTV contracted project and it will be for DTV to decide whether TiVo should show it at CES or not. But if TiVo doesn't show the unit at CES some will claim that it proves the unit has been delayed again (with the assumption that TiVo is the cause).


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

nrc said:


> True, the new DTV TiVo is a a DirecTV contracted project


And because of that the only information available is  this


> Will DIRECTV offer a new TiVo HD DVR?
> We are working with TiVo to develop a new HD DVR. The details are still being determined, but for now we can tell you that the new receiver will have:
> Access to over 130 HD channels
> DIRECTV on DEMAND capability
> ...


Anything else is a pure speculation.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

todays confernce call-

someone asked first half of second half of 2010.

response was 'latter half of the year'


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

"Let's forget about tomorrow, 'cause, tomorrow never comes."


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> today's conference call-
> someone asked first half or second half of 2010.
> response was 'latter half of the year'


Color me disappointed. I may have to get one of the HR DVRs after all. That is just too much longer to wait. Thanks for the update.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

I refuse to take their HR DVR. If the Tivo is a no show I will look at all other options.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

fasTLane said:


> I refuse to take their HR DVR. If the Tivo is a no show I will look at all other options.


I hear you. My only other option is Time Warner, 'nuff said.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Those of you who "refuse to take their HR DVR" - have you ever used one for more than a day or two?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

stevel said:


> Those of you who "refuse to take their HR DVR" - have you ever used one for more than a day or two?


Years, off and on. It's already been dictated to me that we'll never bring a second unit into the house and the one goes ASAP. If the new DirecTivo is NG we'll all be spending more time in sports bars, as has been suggested. Most of us don't drink; that'll be fun.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

stevel said:


> Those of you who "refuse to take their HR DVR" - have you ever used one for more than a day or two?


No, and I probably will be getting one since the TiVo will be no show for many months to come. If I decide to do a complete ecosystem jump, it would be marginally better than anything I would be able to do with a Time Warner technology and policy limited TiVo S3. I will loose some features I have become fond of, but it would not be the end of the world. On the other hand I would gain DLNA, which sounds pretty cool.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

stevel said:


> Those of you who "refuse to take their HR DVR" - have you ever used one for more than a day or two?


I refuse to ever get another HR2x DVR, and I had two of them for quite awhile. I had one for about 18 months and another for about 6 months. They flat out suck, and my family would never forgive me if I brought one back into the house.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

whitepelican said:


> my family would never forgive me if I brought one back into the house.


Yeah; I really don't understand it. Personally, I like the Tivo in terms of smoothness, capabilities, flexibility, but I don't love it and I don't hate the DirecTV knockoff. But nobody else wants anything to do with it, absolutely no tolerance at all. Half the time _I'm_ the one that winds up with the remote when we watch sports and everybody shouts orders to me. I'm the remote control for this pos.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

So I don't get what "sucks so bad" about it. They are basically the same thing, just a different UI menu system. 

When I got my first HR2x 3 and a half years ago my wife picked it up in about 10 minutes. She liked that live TV stayed on while in the menus, was happy it was much faster then the old DirecTivo and said the menu's made more sense to her (she was always confused with the Tivo menu's).

When we dumped DirecTV (all pay TV) last year she picked up Windows Media Center also pretty quick. Then again she isn't stubborn and could care less what the DVR is or looks like, so long as she can watch her CSI every week she's happy.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

shibby191 said:


> So I don't get what "sucks so bad" about it. They are basically the same thing, just a different UI menu system.


I agree. It's just a DVR. How much does it have to do to make me happy?


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## Daniel (Feb 25, 2001)

You guys can sing the praises of the HR2x boxes all you want, but some of us just don't like them. I don't see how hard it is for you to realize that some people have different opinions and you don't have to respond to every single post regaling us about how great the HR2x is. We get it, you like them, good for you. However, WE DON'T and we want another option.

Regardless of the UI, the season pass limitation is a deal breaker for me. (And yes, I know all about the esoteric commands that you can enter to combine season passes. But why the hell should I have to do that!)

Currently my only option is to wait for the new DirecTiVo box or drop DirecTV all together and get new TiVo Premiere boxes. Grande Comm isn't that bad a cable company and they already provide my fiber broadband. But I really don't have the money to completely replace the three boxes I have all at once. 

I'm willing to look at the new whole house server thing that DirecTV is coming out with, it would solve some of the cabling issues that I have with migrating to HD but if it has the 50 season pass limit, it will still be a deal breaker.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, if it's based on personal experience. I take issue with those who automatically say "it sucks" but have never used one.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Daniel said:


> ...I don't see how hard it is for you to realize that some people have different opinions and you don't have to respond to every single post regaling us about how great the HR2x is. We get it, you like them, good for you. However, WE DON'T and we want another option...


Sorry, I didn't know you owned the internet. Ironically, though you can't see how it might be "hard" to see the validity of your opinion, apparently it is just as hard for you to accept that some people do like the HR2x platform, and some like it much more than Tivo. That's right, _much _more. A _lot _more.

Saying "It sucks" is only your opinion, rather than a sweeping pronouncement of fact. Our different opinions are just as valid as yours might be. It's just as insulting to hear how much you might think it sucks as it is for you to hear how much we like it, so how about you get over yourself and extend us the same courtesy, which is to allow others to post their opinions without them having to be excoriated simply for posting them.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

TyroneShoes said:


> extend us the same courtesy


I pretty much don't have a dog in this fight. But I have to say courtesy might suggest that, on a Tivo forum, you make your negative comparisons with the Tivos briefly, once, twice (in any case less than 27), then move along. Anti-Tivo talk is certainly appropriate, I have no problem with that, but enough is enough. We get it.

It would never occur to me to haunt a DirecTV forum and continually harp on how much I prefer Tivo over DirecTV, and in fact I don't see that happening there. Yet the descendants of Earl still play their silly game here. I really do not understand it, I don't see how you could ALL be DirecTV employees.

To speak of courtesy is astonishing.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Wil said:


> I pretty much don't have a dog in this fight. But I have to say courtesy might suggest that, on a Tivo forum, you make your negative comparisons with the Tivos briefly, once, twice (in any case less than 27), then move along. Anti-Tivo talk is certainly appropriate, I have no problem with that, but enough is enough. We get it.


Since when is stating your opinion that you like the HR2x DVRs an anti-TiVo comment.



> It would never occur to me to haunt a DirecTV forum and continually harp on how much I prefer Tivo over DirecTV, and in fact I don't see that happening there. Yet the descendants of Earl still play their silly game here. I really do not understand it, I don't see how you could ALL be DirecTV employees.
> 
> To speak of courtesy is astonishing.


 The only reason people make pro HR2x comments here is that so many people seem to want to bash other products. Why is it wrong to share our opinion more than once?


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Wil said:


> I pretty much don't have a dog in this fight. But I have to say courtesy might suggest that, on a Tivo forum, you make your negative comparisons with the Tivos briefly, once, twice (in any case less than 27), then move along ... I really do not understand it, I don't see how you could ALL be DirecTV employees.


Because you people seem to be slow learners, we may have to repeat it 28 times on a hope that you will comprehend.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Wil said:


> It would never occur to me to haunt a DirecTV forum and continually harp on how much I prefer Tivo over DirecTV, and in fact I don't see that happening there.


If by "over there" you mean DBSTalk, all the Tivo talk is in one thread that they rotate quarterly. Plenty of DirecTV bashing there. BUT, the bashing has certainly quieted in the past year or two because most people have simply moved on. Either they accept that Tivo isn't coming back (or that it keeps getting delayed in 6 month chunks every 6 months) or they have moved on to another provider that gives them what they want.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Daniel said:


> You guys can sing the praises of the HR2x boxes all you want, but some of us just don't like them.


Nothing wrong with not liking the HR2x boxes, nothing at all. But that doesn't mean they "suck" or are terrible. 10 million people might disagree with you.


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## sluciani (Apr 21, 2003)

shibby191 said:


> Nothing wrong with not liking the HR2x boxes, nothing at all. But that doesn't mean they "suck" or are terrible. 10 million people might disagree with you.


Was thinking the same thing. There may be more HR2x households currently than there ever were TiVo households all-time. I have no idea if this is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it's true.

There was no bigger TiVo fanatic than me, and even I've moved on.  I started with two 30 GB Series 1's back in '99, then moved to 4 Sat-T60's and eventually 5 HR10's. As an early adopter for each model, I spent a small fortune acquiring those boxes. Then the Yankee network on DirecTV went exclusively MPEG-4 and I had no choice but to switch to HR2x's, or miss seeing the games in HD.

I've got 6 HR's now and I'm very happy, especially with the way DirecTV has transparently implemented MRV.


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## appleye1 (Jan 26, 2002)

Everybody's entitled to their opinion. I have 2 HR10-250s, a HR-20, and a HR-21. I use all four heavily and I still much prefer the Tivo GUI. If and when the new DirecTivo comes out I'll be all over it.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

sluciani said:


> Was thinking the same thing. There may be more HR2x households currently than there ever were TiVo households all-time. I have no idea if this is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it's true.


Just FYI that it is fact. DirecTV gives these numbers out in their quarterly calls. 60% of their current subscribers have an "advanced product" HD or DVR (most are combined) one and 70% of all new subs get one. Pushing 19 million total now. So even if it's just 50% we are talking 9+ million.

At it's peak Tivo had about 4-4.5 million users, about 2.5 of which were DirecTV. Now it's 2.6 million total (1.5 are Tivo stand alone, the rest are a total of DirecTV, Comcast and other cable companies) and keeps dropping. Again, that doesn't mean that Tivo is bad, it's just that the general public doesn't care, they just want a DVR, they don't care what brand it is, they just get whatever they get from their provider, and they all think it's "Tivo" because Tivo=DVR to them.

In total there are 40+ million DVR households out there. Tivo has about 6-7% of the market. It's unfortunate that a market they helped create and dominated for years they are just a niche player now. Hopefully they can get this new DirecTV unit out and be a success so that they can continue to influence the market and competition.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

shibby191 said:


> Nothing wrong with not liking the HR2x boxes, nothing at all. But that doesn't mean they "suck" or are terrible. 10 million people might disagree with you.


I haven't used a DirecTV DVR, so I have no opinion about it one way or the other, but how many of those DirecTV subscribers chose the DirecTV DVR over other HD DVRs that are DirecTV compatible?


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## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

Note, they didn't show a S4 @ CES and yet it's coming "in April".


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Wil said:


> I pretty much don't have a dog in this fight. But I have to say courtesy might suggest that, on a Tivo forum, you make your negative comparisons with the Tivos briefly, once, twice (in any case less than 27), then move along. Anti-Tivo talk is certainly appropriate, I have no problem with that, but enough is enough. We get it.
> It would never occur to me to haunt a DirecTV forum and continually harp on how much I prefer Tivo over DirecTV, and in fact I don't see that happening there. Yet the descendants of Earl still play their silly game here. I really do not understand it, *I don't see how you could ALL be DirecTV employees*. To speak of courtesy is astonishing.


At some point it *does *begin to come across like some well orchestrated sales campaign.

You've seen the 2 minute pill ads on TV that pound you into submission. *LOL*


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

whitepelican said:


> I refuse to ever get another HR2x DVR, and I had two of them for quite awhile. I had one for about 18 months and another for about 6 months. They flat out suck, and my family would never forgive me if I brought one back into the house.


funny, I have the exact opposite reaction to the units from my family, if I tried to replace the currents with a TIVO based box my wife and kids would not forgive me - briefly looked into cable and when I told my wife we would go back to a TIVO she said "[explitive deleted] you still have one on the set in the garage and that is where it will stay"


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Kablemodem said:


> I haven't used a DirecTV DVR, so I have no opinion about it one way or the other, but how many of those DirecTV subscribers chose the DirecTV DVR over other HD DVRs that are DirecTV compatible?


And that matters why? If they were so bad then many people would choose to leave DirecTV for another provider with a different DVR or bad word of mouth would have prevented people from getting them in the first place. Neither has taken place. 

Heck, we all know how bad most cable DVRs are compared to Tivo but the tens of millions of people with cable DVRs aren't knocking down Tivo's door wanting to get one or drop cable and move to Dish or something. Thus in the cable world you have what, 20 million people that choose the cable DVR over the Tivo DVR since there they actually do have a choice unlike DirecTV or Dish.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> So I don't get what "sucks so bad" about it. They are basically the same thing, just a different UI menu system.


The Tivo interface is basically the only piece of consumer electronics that I've never had to explain to my wife at all. They did do something right when they came up with that UI in the first place. I've never once even had to give my wife a hint about how to set up or delete season passes, or how to find a program she wants to play back.

What "sucks so bad" about the HR2x? Well, let me count the ways. The biggest problem that my wife had with it was that she wanted it to alphabetize the list like we always had done with Tivo. Well, not only did that take a super special code just to allow you to alphabetize it, but it made no sense once it was alphabetized. A program that started with an "A", "An" or "The" ends up under A or T instead of the correct place. So, "The Big Bang Theory" (along with about half of the other recorded shows) would fall under T instead of B. Then, once you could find the correct show, items inside the folder are also alphabetized, instead of chronological. Which means it is another hunt and find expedition to come up with the most recent program in that folder. A show that didn't have episode names, such as my wife's "Oprah" or "Dr. Phil" episodes ended up sorted in some mixed up way that was impossible to understand. My wife was constantly annoyed that she couldn't easily find out what the description was for the most recent episode of her shows.

Beyond that, my biggest problem with the HR2x boxes was the (lack of) speed. My HR10-250s were many times faster at every function except for re-arranging season passes (which is something I rarely did anyway). The HR20-100 box was nearly usable, but the HR21-100 was so slow that I couldn't ever even enter a channel number. The only way to tune to a channel was to hit "Guide", wait 5 seconds for the guide to come up, then page up/down repeatedly, waiting 5 seconds between each button press until finding the channel you wanted. It usually took between 30-60 seconds for me to switch to a different channel, unlike my DTivo units which I could punch in a channel number and instantly go to that channel. And I had many firmware updates on the units during the time that I had them, yet they were always too slow to be even the slightest bit user friendly.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> And that matters why? If they were so bad then many people would choose to leave DirecTV for another provider with a different DVR or bad word of mouth would have prevented people from getting them in the first place. Neither has taken place.
> 
> Heck, we all know how bad most cable DVRs are compared to Tivo but the tens of millions of people with cable DVRs aren't knocking down Tivo's door wanting to get one or drop cable and move to Dish or something. Thus in the cable world you have what, 20 million people that choose the cable DVR over the Tivo DVR since there they actually do have a choice unlike DirecTV or Dish.


The reason people aren't leaving DirecTV (or cable for that matter) over crappy DVRs is simply that the majority of those people have only ever experienced that one DVR. It's all they know and they don't realize that there are better alternatives. Heck, there are people all over the country right now paying more for their crappy cable company DVRs than they would have to pay for Tivo service, but it is just due to laziness/momentum. The cable company brings them a box and hooks it up and they don't have to do anything else. Those people are "happy" with their DVRs in the same way that the guy who eats hot dogs everyday is happy even though he's never tasted steak.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Most people can't appreciate that TiVo is better than cable company DVRs because they have never used one. When people come to my house and see me using TiVo they are amazed at all the things it can do.


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

I blame Rupert Murdoch for the whole TiVo/DTV mess.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

Kablemodem said:


> Most people can't appreciate that TiVo is better than cable company DVRs because they have never used one. When people come to my house and see me using TiVo they are amazed at all the things it can do.


matter of opinion only, I have used other DVR's - charter, TIVO, Directivo, Uverse, Directv, they ALL have their faults and limitations no matter what anyone says, claims or mistakenly believes.

Personally I and my family detest the TIVO models, be it ancient directv version or a pure recent tivo unit. Again, opinion based out of using them all. I have one last TIVO based unit that lives in the garage and is used to generate background noise when I restore a Norton 850 Commander, when that dies to the point that I cannot put it back together with duct tape and bubble gum then it will be replaced with something, probably a HD radio. Beside a drunk monkey with a video camera is better then the DVR's that a cable company provides.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> Most people can't appreciate that TiVo is better than cable company DVRs because they have never used one. When people come to my house and see me using TiVo they are amazed at all the things it can do.





sjberra said:


> matter of opinion only, I have used other DVR's - charter, TIVO, Directivo, Uverse, Directv, they ALL have their faults and limitations no matter what anyone says, claims or mistakenly believes.
> ...


the middle ground is Most people wouldn't know if tivo is better or not FOR THEM because they have never touched a tivo.

So just because there are ~38 million DVR users that dont have tivo's doesn't mean that any significant amount have made a choice.

Probably about 2-3 million (maybe 4?) of those 38 million have had tivo previously and now have another brand of DVR. Of those probably a good percentage had tivo on directv and had no choice in the matter when directv no longer offered a tivo product but they wanted to move to HD. Other smaller goups wanted HD but have U-verse, or they have cable didn't want to deal with cablecards, and SDV, and CCI bytes. So plenty didn't up and ditch tivo because they thought the tivo UI was inferior.

So the subset of the world who have used tivo and another box is a small percentage. And the subset of those that actively picked something over tivo is something less.

that's the facts- now lets all stop talking silly generalizations. Some like tivo better. Some like others better. Many dont give a crap. Different isn't WRONG. rational people can get to the same end point with 2 different perfectly valid methods. Some will pick one dvr some will pick another.

Since this is all off topic anyway I'll drag it further away- no wonder our country can't solve any of it's significant problems when people can't even act civilly to each other comparing 2 stupid boxes to record tv.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

whitepelican said:


> The Tivo interface is basically the only piece of consumer electronics that I've never had to explain to my wife at all. They did do something right when they came up with that UI in the first place. I've never once even had to give my wife a hint about how to set up or delete season passes, or how to find a program she wants to play back.


Same here with my wife on the HR2x and on Windows Media Center. My wife was actually confused with the Tivo interface. But, everyone is different.



> Well, let me count the ways. The biggest problem that my wife had with it was that she wanted it to alphabetize the list like we always had done with Tivo. Well, not only did that take a super special code just to allow you to alphabetize it, but it made no sense once it was alphabetized. A program that started with an "A", "An" or "The" ends up under A or T instead of the correct place. So, "The Big Bang Theory" (along with about half of the other recorded shows) would fall under T instead of B. Then, once you could find the correct show, items inside the folder are also alphabetized, instead of chronological. Which means it is another hunt and find expedition to come up with the most recent program in that folder. A show that didn't have episode names, such as my wife's "Oprah" or "Dr. Phil" episodes ended up sorted in some mixed up way that was impossible to understand. My wife was constantly annoyed that she couldn't easily find out what the description was for the most recent episode of her shows.


I'm not familiar with that type of sort since we used the same sort we did on the Tivo which was by record date. When opening a folder each episode was also in order of record date. We tried alpha on the Tivo long ago and didn't like it so stuck with recorded date. As for the "The" issue with sorting, they updated it a couple years ago where "The" is ignored in any list and thus The Big Bang Theory appears in the Bs. Perhaps your issue with the alpha sorting has also been addressed in the past year or so but I'm not sure.



> Beyond that, my biggest problem with the HR2x boxes was the (lack of) speed.


I still see speed complaints from time to time on DBSTalk, most are on the HR22/23 it seems. HR20's are universally seen as the fastest. It's certainly not normal to have slow delays with keypresses and doesn't effect everyone so it might have been a certain production run(s) with the issue. Doesn't help you in any case, but it certainly isn't normal. Reports on the new 24 series are that it's based on faster processor and memory chips and runs circles around anything in the 20-23 series.

I fear Tivo is going to screw it up for themselves with this new flash based UI and the heavy reliance on a good and fast Internet connection and without that the UI is dog slow. Ouch. Perhaps it's a good thing that the new DirecTivo HD will keep the "classic" Tivo UI.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

shibby191 said:


> I'm not familiar with that type of sort since we used the same sort we did on the Tivo which was by record date. When opening a folder each episode was also in order of record date. We tried alpha on the Tivo long ago and didn't like it so stuck with recorded date. As for the "The" issue with sorting, they updated it a couple years ago where "The" is ignored in any list and thus The Big Bang Theory appears in the Bs. Perhaps your issue with the alpha sorting has also been addressed in the past year or so but I'm not sure.


A while back DirecTV had fixed the search feature to ignore the "A" or "The", but the list still had them sorted that way. It seems an incredibly simple thing to do, but as far as I know they still haven't fixed that issue.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

shibby191 said:


> I fear Tivo is going to screw it up for themselves with this new flash based UI


I was about to say "Amen, brother" to that, but as I think on it, flash is really not too bad if you can control all the variables, and in a controlled environment like this they might just get away with it. When you program in a flawed language, you can simply write appropriately flawed code if you're guaranteed the environment is encapsulated and locked down.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

Most people go with cable DVR's or sat DVR's because they are cheap or free upfront. 

Tell someone who's never had a DVR (and isn't sure how much they will like them) that they have to spend $300 up front ON TOP OF a subscription fee, and they will opt for the cable company DVR. I've been a Tivo fanatic since 2001 (and have a Tivo HD right now). When I moved into my current apartment, I took the cable DVR, and used it for about 6 months before I decided to go back to Tivo, but I KNEW better.

My boss, and a few friends of mine, have all recently hopped on the DVR bandwagon with the cable company, and they all cited that they liked the cable company option better because they could get it for simply a monthly fee with no upfront costs or commitment. If they both decide they aren't using it enough to justify the cost in two months, they simply return the box and are out NOTHING. If the box breaks, they bring it in for an exchange, and if new technology comes out, they just do a swap.

If the Motorola or SA boxes ever catch up UI or feature wise, Tivo is screwed. And they know this, hence the lawsuits.


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## Daniel (Feb 25, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> Saying "It sucks" is only your opinion, rather than a sweeping pronouncement of fact.





shibby191 said:


> Nothing wrong with not liking the HR2x boxes, nothing at all. But that doesn't mean they "suck" or are terrible.


Nowhere did I say that they 'suck'. I said that I just don't like them and that the 50 season pass limit was a deal breaker for me. Please stop making things up.

Like I said, I have no problem with you liking the HR2x, none at all. You have want you want, I'm truly happy for you.

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to bash people that _don't_ like them? What is in it for you? Either your just a fanboy and think that DirecTV can do no wrong, or you're shorting TiVo stock, in which case you just lost a LOT of money. Is there another reason?

Why does EVERY thread in a TiVo forum have to degrade into a pissing contest? If this was a thread that was about comparing the HR2x to the TiVo, then I'd understand. But this thread was a thread about the new DirecTiVo box that some of us are interested in. Quite frankly why are you here at all? You've stated time and time again that you aren't interested in the new TiVo box because you have your precious HR2x box.

Just for reference, I _have_ used a HR2x box (not sure which one) but I don't own one and I personally don't like them. I currently have three R15 that were supplied as replacements for my TiVo boxes that died. And for my needs and my family's, it just doesn't cut it and the 50 season pass limit is a PITA. Even my five year old son still misses the TiVos after more than a year with the R15s and that is a long time for a five year old.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

StanSimmons said:


> I blame Rupert Murdoch for the whole TiVo/DTV mess.


A real pool pisser if there ever was one. Glad to see that crock leave.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Daniel said:


> What I don't understand is why you feel the need to bash people that _don't_ like them? What is in it for you? Either your just a fanboy and think that DirecTV can do no wrong, or you're shorting TiVo stock, in which case you just lost a LOT of money. Is there another reason?


I'm not bashing anybody.



> Quite frankly why are you here at all? You've stated time and time again that you aren't interested in the new TiVo box because you have your precious HR2x box.


Ummm, I've got neither. I dropped DirecTV 6 months ago. I am OTA only thank you very much. 



> I currently have three R15 that were supplied as replacements for my TiVo boxes that died.


The R15's were and still are complete garbage. There is a reason why DirecTV stopped making them over 3 years ago.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

TyroneShoes said:


> I guess we could look at this as an official statement that the DTivo is actually going to happen. They've at least painted themselves into _that _corner by saying this (I still predict a launch date of December 23, 2012). The only question remaining is will it live up to what people expect, or will it not really be anything special or revolutionary. My guess would lean more towards evolutionary instead, but not significantly so.


I hope it's not revolutionary. The only thing that will make me buy one is if I can hack it. What DirecTV persists in not understanding is that they could do a couple of simple things to their HD DVRs that would make tivo irrelevant to me. Of all of the companies I have ever seen, D* is the champion of "we don't need no stinking customer input" -- when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you. They clearly have their idea of the way things should be, never mind what the customer would like to have.

Before people misunderstand, I know that D* is never going to allow their boxes to be hacked. I don't want to hack. I want the features that I currently hack my HR10-250's for. They're simple and could be accomodated easily, but D* thinks they have no value to most of their customers. (They're probably right, since the overwhelming majority of the customers aren't us -- they think what they've got is wonderful) Rant Off. Tyrone, I had to make this a reply to you 'cause I miss you. Don't look in here too often anymore. Hope you're having a good 2010 so far.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

tucsonbill said:


> I don't want to hack. I want the features that I currently hack my HR10-250's for


Hackers showed Tivo what they wanted, and what their Tivos (and DTivos including the HR10-250) could do, liberated. Tivo got it. The Tivo series 3 does it all, native. As long as the new DTivos have that same flexibility, life is good.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

Wil said:


> Hackers showed Tivo what they wanted, and what their Tivos (and DTivos including the HR10-250) could do, liberated. Tivo got it. The Tivo series 3 does it all, native. As long as the new DTivos have that same flexibility, life is good.


For the most part, all of the hacking done on DirecTivos was simply to gain the features that standalone Tivos already had. So I don't think hacking the DTivo units really "showed" Tivo anything. We'll see if it showed DirecTV anything when/if the new HD DirecTivo ever gets released.


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## CuriousMark (Jan 13, 2005)

whitepelican said:


> For the most part, all of the hacking done on DirecTivos was simply to gain the features that standalone Tivos already had. So I don't think hacking the DTivo units really "showed" Tivo anything. We'll see if it showed DirecTV anything when/if the new HD DirecTivo ever gets released.


It probably showed DirecTV what to include in the CE update for the HR2X DVRs. They seem to have added many really interesting features with that update. They have even gone TiVo one better with addition of some streaming features the standalone TiVo DVRs don't yet have.

The DirecTV and TiVo websites do NOT list any of those CE features as being included in the upcoming DirecTV DVR with TiVo service. That the feature list on the website is very old. It may simply be out of date, or maybe those features are not planned for the new DVR. I for one would like an update to that list so I would know what to expect. It certainly would make waiting another six months less unappealing if I have some better idea than I do now of what it is I am waiting for.

We all signed up for email updates, an update is way overdue. Come on DirecTV and TiVo, send that email give us something to which we can look forward.


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## Skyboss (Apr 11, 2003)

sluciani said:


> Was thinking the same thing. There may be more HR2x households currently than there ever were TiVo households all-time. I have no idea if this is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it's true.
> 
> There was no bigger TiVo fanatic than me, and even I've moved on.  I started with two 30 GB Series 1's back in '99, then moved to 4 Sat-T60's and eventually 5 HR10's. As an early adopter for each model, I spent a small fortune acquiring those boxes. Then the Yankee network on DirecTV went exclusively MPEG-4 and I had no choice but to switch to HR2x's, or miss seeing the games in HD.
> 
> I've got 6 HR's now and I'm very happy, especially with the way DirecTV has transparently implemented MRV.


We can always hope to wake up to the big blue light one morning, turn on the TV and find the little TiVo dude doing the happy dance, then going to the mail box and finding a new peanut has been delivered and that the DirecTV software has vanished forever and we're back to where only Tivo exists in the world of DirecTV DVR's. Those were good times.


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## Daniel (Feb 25, 2001)

Skyboss said:


> We can always hope to wake up to the big blue light one morning, turn on the TV and find the little TiVo dude doing the happy dance, then going to the mail box and finding a new peanut has been delivered and that the DirecTV software has vanished forever and we're back to where only Tivo exists in the world of DirecTV DVR's. Those were good times.


You got me choked up, dude!


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