# Lost - 03/02/10 - Sundown *Spoilers*



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

What? No LOST thread and it's after 10pm?

Wow....crazy episode

In the alternate timeline, Sayid's love married to his brother...before he even got on the plane to Austrailia. Jin being in trouble with the mob (and not speaking english of course since he learned that on the island)

Then on the island...Smokey is getting his recruits. Sayid and Claire being two more of the Oceanic survivors....we think he already has Sawyer.

Where does Kate fall in...she wasn't a follower, yet smokey let her live.

It's gonna be an interesting 12 hours coming up!


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I thought Sundown was going to be about Sun.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> I thought Sundown was going to be about Sun.


Yeah. They threw us a curveball there. This is the first break from the season 1 formula.


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

We now know what the baseball is about.

So we got that going for us.

Still trying to absorb the rest.


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

I really enjoyed this episode and am continuing to love this season. I've always liked Sayid's episodes but oddly enough I haven't always liked Sayid as a character. In this episode he seems to turn to the dark side, so to speak and honestly I think this is true to what we have seen of his character over the years. He's tried to be good but I think he always falls to his darker side. It's hard to really know if the "darkness" took over or just brought out the dark that is always part of him to the surface.

The sideways story brought an interesting perspective to the Sayid character. While the story was pretty simple and a little surprising (Jin?? Nice!), there was one scene that really painted this Sayid as one who has been redeemed. It was when he tells Nadia that he doesn't deserve her. This was very touching and it adds fuel to the fire that we are seeing the redemption storyline play out in this sideways world.

On Island, I loved the story behind Dogan's arrival to the Island. I wasn't too surprised to see him and Lennon die, though. I figured the Temple storyline would sort of wrap up within the first 6 hours, since this show has been pretty consistent with the 6 episode arc structure. 

Creepy Claire. Catch a Falling Star sung at the end ... very creepy and effective.

Loved the Smocke attack on the Temple and glad to see Illana, Frank, Sun, Ben and Miles all hook up. I'm hoping they'll meet up with Jack and Hurley next.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. I can't wait until next week all over again!!


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I loved in the very beginning when Dugan was explaining to Sayid "there is a balance of good and evil" and they show his hands doing the scale action with one hand plain and one with a glove thing on it. A black glove thing. Good and Evil.

I think Locke let Kate come along because he thought he could turn her along the way. He gave her that smile. 

I also loved Kate hanging by the ladder as Smokey went zooming over her. Very cool!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> So we got that going for us.


Which is nice.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Last week Claire said that if Kate took Aaron that Claire would kill Kate. 

She might just yet.

I don't know if Kate's going with them because she believes in the cause, or because she just doesn't want to get killed. I think the second. For now.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Which is nice.


:up:


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Last week Claire said that if Kate took Aaron that Claire would kill Kate.
> 
> She might just yet.
> 
> I don't know if Kate's going with them because she believes in the cause, or because she just doesn't want to get killed. I think the second. For now.


Definitely the second. And because that's where Claire is. Cause we all know Kate hasn't stopped looking for Claire for a second since she got back to the island. Wait...


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

So Dogan was somehow keeping smokey out? What does Dogan have to do with the ashes?


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jking said:


> :up:


This.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Nice fight scene.

:up:


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> Last week Claire said that if Kate took Aaron that Claire would kill Kate.
> 
> She might just yet.
> 
> I don't know if Kate's going with them because she believes in the cause, or because she just doesn't want to get killed. I think the second. For now.


Judging by the big WTF look on her face, I'm guessing she's just following them for now, mainly to keep on eye on Claire. They glossed over the Aaron situation waaaay too quickly. It kind of blew my mind that Dogen was a banker, lol. I thought he was a samurai born on the island. I also thought he was extremely old but if he had little league in his real life, I guess not.

It was an Other's massacre. I know a lot of epople think it was in Sayid's character but I don't. I think he was a good person who did bad things out of necessity. I don't think Sayid would have let that many people get wasted. i think it was whatever "dark power" is in him since his resurrection.

I'm not really following why Claire is still following Flocke. Kate told her that she had Aaron off the island this whole time, while Flocke was telling her the Others had him. I hope she brings that up soon. I wouldn't be surprised if not, since characters on this show are physically unable to ask each other normal questions. When Sayid was like "why did you try to kill me" I almost feel off my couch.

I love how so little time has actually passed for the characters. When Miles asked Sun where Jin was and she was all "JINS ALIVE?!?" it threw me for a second because it's been a season and a half almost, how the **** do you not know he's alive, haha. But in her time it's only been what, a week since Ben told her Jin was alive.

Also, did anyone else notice that the guy who grabbed Kate from the pit totally wrapped his hands around her chest, hahaha. Lennon came in and said "time's up" and the random Other was like "I'll get her!" and full-on felt her up.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Great episode.

I am very sad that we only have 12 hours left. );

Excellent effect flying through the halls.

Dogan's job was to be alive and keep smokey out of the temple? So smokey can cross the ash after Dogan's dead? Does that mean he's not been crossing the ash because of a rule, and that rule only applies when he's alive?

Good and evil. Had they actually used those words before?

When the baseball falling reminded Dogan not to kill Sayid, I figured it was because baseball is all about rules (a game), but his kid story works too.

I too thought it was a Sun episode.

Did not expect Keamy. Glad to see him get his. Man he acts like Walken.

KICK ASS FIGHT SCENE BETWEEN SAYID AND DOGAN at the beginning of the episode!!!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Great quote:

"Apparently, I'm evil."


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Dogen says of Not-Locke:
"This man will not stop until he has destroyed *every living thing* on this Island."

There it is again (exactly what was said about Widmore and the freighter folk). Why does "*every living thing*" on the Island have to die?


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

So they teased us last week with "can't show you previews cause we are going to answer questions!" Then this week gives us NO ANSWERS whatsoever. And if you go with "what the baseball is all about" it doesn't count cause WHO CARES ABOUT THE BASEBALL and some character that was just shown 4 episodes ago...

Wow. Worst episode maybe ever. Gave us NOTHING.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cool that Miles confirmed that Sayid was actually dead, and told him that it wasn't them that did it.

Again talk of destroying "Every living thing" on this island.

Everyone see Jack?

Miles is playing not only another game, but SOLITAIRE (symbolic of there only being one player now, since Jacob is dead?)

Great intro to Sayid by Locke... (sound, wind, etc)


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Any guesses on the reason why Sayid can't kill Flocke?
1) Sayid has not yet turn to Flocke's side, so no loophole?
2) Both Flocke and Jacob can't be dead at any one time?
3) Flocke/Smoke monster is not the Man-in-Black/Jacob's nemesis?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

dtle said:


> Any guesses on the reason why Sayid can't kill Flocke?
> 1) Sayid has not yet turn to Flocke's side, so no loophole?
> 2) Both Flocke and Jacob can't be dead at any one time?
> 3) Flocke/Smoke monster is not the Man-in-Black/Jacob's nemesis?


Dogen told him to plunge the knife into his chest before he spoke. Flocke did speak before Sayid stabbed him. I don't know if that has any significance, or if Dogen was indeed intending to send Sayid to his death. That doesn't make a lot of sense though. You'd think Dogen would be a lot more worried about getting rid of Flocke than about using Flocke to get rid of Sayid.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Oh, and with all due respect to the unsatisfied, I will say that after this episode was over (and I realized that we didn't really have many/any new questions this week, and that it's winding down), I said out loud "Well I hope you're happy, 'we need answers' people.. Now there aren't any new questions. We're nearing the end.". It didn't feel like a building mystery this week, but more like a train that was going to start slowing down soon to reach the station.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

dtle said:


> Any guesses on the reason why Sayid can't kill Flocke?
> 1) Sayid has not yet turn to Flocke's side, so no loophole?
> 2) Both Flocke and Jacob can't be dead at any one time?
> 3) Flocke/Smoke monster is not the Man-in-Black/Jacob's nemesis?


Flocke can't be killed, and neither can Jacob, who's not really dead, but only waiting for a new body to inhabit.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Obviously faux Locke can't "go home" until every living thing is either off the island or dead. 

This is why he was allways pissed at Jacob for bringing more people there.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> Dogen says of Not-Locke:
> "This man will not stop until he has destroyed *every living thing* on this Island."
> 
> There it is again (exactly what was said about Widmore and the freighter folk). Why does "*every living thing*" on the Island have to die?


Because if there is one living thing, then it can be incorporated by evil and thus live on.

That is what popped into my head. Sort of a deep cleansing is needed.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Everyone see Jack?


Yep. As soon as they walked into the hospital I started looking.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

By the way, this was the second episode where we saw someone in the "LA X" timeline that Locke had approached in the other, and they both got what he promised them (assuming that the "LA X" timeline was the result of the other.

Claire was promised Aaron. Sayid was promised Nadia. In 2004 in the "LA X" timeline, they both have what they were promised. Maybe one of the recruits will be promised that 815 will never crash...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Obviously faux Locke can't "go home" until every living thing is either off the island or dead.
> 
> This is why he was allways pissed at Jacob for bringing more people there.


:up:


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Flocke can't be killed, and neither can Jacob, who's not really dead, but only waiting for a new body to inhabit.


I'm with TB on this one.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, this was the second episode where we saw someone in the "LA X" timeline that Locke had approached in the other, and they both got what he promised them (assuming that the "LA X" timeline was the result of the other.
> 
> Claire was promised Aaron. Sayid was promised Nadia. In 2004 in the "LA X" timeline, they both have what they were promised. Maybe one of the recruits will be promised that 815 will never crash...


Well, technically Sayid doesn't have Nadia.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> Obviously faux Locke can't "go home" until every living thing is either off the island or dead.
> 
> This is why he was allways pissed at Jacob for bringing more people there.


I dunno, he seems to kill people pretty quickly.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

T-Wolves said:


> Dogen says of Not-Locke:
> "This man will not stop until he has destroyed *every living thing* on this Island."
> 
> There it is again (exactly what was said about Widmore and the freighter folk). Why does "*every living thing*" on the Island have to die?


Does that include plants?

Smokey's got a lot of work yet to do.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> Well, technically Sayid doesn't have Nadia.


Fair enough. He does say "and I'll never see [Nadia] again" and Locke said "what if you could?", so maybe Sayid made a poorly phrased wish to a weasling genie?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hey, is Keamy's restaurant the same restaurant that Miles was shown a dead body in?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Toronto - Hurley's influence/connections are numerous in X!


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> By the way, this was the second episode where we saw someone in the "LA X" timeline that Locke had approached in the other, and they both got what he promised them (assuming that the "LA X" timeline was the result of the other.
> 
> Claire was promised Aaron. Sayid was promised Nadia. In 2004 in the "LA X" timeline, they both have what they were promised. Maybe one of the recruits will be promised that 815 will never crash...


I think you may have hit the crux of the entire ending, right here.

Since this season's "flash sideways", I have thought that we are actually being shown the extended ending of the story, parallel with the on-island story. My theory is, at the end of the show, it will turn out that we've actually been watching the final disposition of the characters all along this season. Something will happen during the on-island story that will set the "non-crash" storyline into motion and make it end up being the actual timeline/reality/ending.

Also, I think we're being too obviously led to believe that Jacob is good, and MIB/Flocke is evil. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a swerve, and Flocke ends up being "good". Locke was essentially a good guy, a man of faith - and who knows, maybe Flocke will end up being more like real Locke than we think.

I also really believe that Sayid failed to kill Flocke for the obvious simple reason we were given by Dogen. He said you have to kill him before he speaks to you, otherwise it's too late. As soon as Flocke spoke to Sayid first, I knew Sayid would fail.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> This.


:down:


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Dogan's job was to be alive and keep smokey out of the temple? So smokey can cross the ash after Dogan's dead? Does that mean he's not been crossing the ash because of a rule, and that rule only applies when he's alive?


Remember Jin told Claire (and Voldemort) that he knew a secret tunnel to get into the Temple. So Jin must've unwittingly gotten Smokey in past the ashes.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

We're moving right along! 

I'm totally satisfied with the way this season is going in terms of pace and answers. 

I do think Dogen was trying to get Sayid killed. I think he figured most likely Flocke would kill Sayid; maybe with a slim chance that Sayid killed Flocke. Sayid coming back with the message was the worst possible outcome.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

So where's Sawyer? With Jin?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

NatasNJ said:


> So they teased us last week with "can't show you previews cause we are going to answer questions!" Then this week gives us NO ANSWERS whatsoever. And if you go with "what the baseball is all about" it doesn't count cause WHO CARES ABOUT THE BASEBALL and some character that was just shown 4 episodes ago...
> 
> Wow. Worst episode maybe ever. Gave us NOTHING.




And how many times must it be explained that the creators have nothing to do with the previews.

I thought that this was a fantastic episode.
Great action and some debate between good and evil.

And the last scene with Sayid was chilling.

And I don't think that Jacob is clear cut good and Fake Locke clear cut evil.
Fake Locke just killed a bunch of people and Jacob essentially stood by and let it happen.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> Remember Jin told Claire (and Voldemort) that he knew a secret tunnel to get into the Temple. So Jin must've unwittingly gotten Smokey in past the ashes.


No, Jin's secret hole was the hole in the wall, which led to the outside of the ring of ash they laid down as soon as they saw the fireworks.

If he only needed the ash moved he could have said to Claire "hey, disrupt that ash with your foot", and Geddy Lee there wouldn't have insisted "it's a bluff! We're safe in the temple! He can't come in here!" if Claire could have just disrupted the ash. Plus, he wouldn't have said what he said when Dogen died (something like "Do you realize what you've done? He was the only thing keeping it out! Now nothing is stopping it!!".


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Notice that when Sayid stabbed "Locke" and pulled the knife out, there was no blood at all.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

What if Jacob and Smokey are the same people? Smokey is the darkness that Jacob expelled from him.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Sayid has been my least favorite character since season one. I've hated the character, the actor playing him, and any Sayid-centric episodes. Until now. I loved this one!

Worst episode ever? Are you infected or just plain crazy? One of the best episodes ever!

That ending!
-"He was the only thing keeping it out!"
-Old school tree-shaking monster noises
-Sayid turning to the dark side
-Smoke monster wreaking havoc
-Hot dirty Kate amazed and fearful of Hot dirty crazy Claire
-Spooky children's song playing over slomo carnage scene

Ilana and friends sorta came out of nowhere. I'm guessing they ran out of time and cut a scene.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Where is Richard in all this? He's gotta have some sort of advice for the good guys.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I almost did the Happy Dance when Sayid killed Dogon and Specs. Glad to see them go. I'm so tired of Others who threaten, kidnap and kill without giving an adequate explanation. If they knew Sayid was so evil, why didn't they kill him themselves earlier. Why bs around with a poison pill?

Kind of dumb of Sayid to keep a picture of Nadia in his bag and then tell her kids to go exploring in it.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm still digging this season but this episode felt pretty "meh" to me...not horrible..just not a "wow" kind of ep.


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Notice that when Sayid stabbed "Locke" and pulled the knife out, there was no blood at all.


Well he IS made of smoke...


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?


Maybe some here just like the skeevy white trash types?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm wondering if the alternate universe is just something to show what MIGHT have happened had they not crashed, not something that really IS happening in an alternate universe. Maybe it's just to show something about what these people might ultimately become on the Island. Just a thought.

I agree, to me, this episode was a story mover, not a WOW episode like the rest of the season. 

When Sayid walked into the hospital, didn't Jack walk by him? I also knew that the loan shark was going to be someone we knew. Keamy was a good choice for that. And yeah, he's a Walken clone.

I too was wondering what happened to Richard. He always seemed like the guy with all the answers, and he's become this subserviant guy with NO answers. I'm still having a hard time linking Ben to ANYTHING good happening on the Island. It kind of leads me to believe that the Jacob side might not be the good one.

Also I'm getting a real Star Wars vibe. Sayid joining "The Dark Side" with Un-Locke being the Emperor...etc.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I thought it was interesting that when Dogen was describing one side as good, one side as evil, he didn't clarify which side was which. We're still being left to assume that Jacob is good and Flocke is evil. Although, after the events of this episode, it certainly seems as though Flocke = evil.

And this was (as asked above) the first time the two sides have been referred to as "good" and "evil" rather than "light" and "dark," I believe. (I vaguely recall some dialog from a prior episode that might have referenced "good guys" vs. "bad guys" - someone (Hurley?) commenting on how good guys never say they are good, but bad guys always claim they are the good guys. However, I don't recall the scene or its context very well. For all I know, maybe it wasn't even from LOST...).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I didn't like wimpy glasses dude, but did Sayid have to kill him? Seemed gratuitous.

I guess if it's showing he's now infected, but it would have been more torturous to wimpy specs guy to leave him alive with his dead hero, waiting for smokey.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?


Don't make her angry. She has friends in low places.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm actually getting more of a "neither one is good or evil" vibe after this ep, especially after the exchange between Sayid and Dogen regarding the similar bargains both had to make with Jacob and Flocke.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Had we seen the gangster before in another role?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Keamy? He was the head of Widmore's mercenaries that came on the boat.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Had we seen the gangster before in another role?


He was the one Whidmore sent to kill off the Islanders. He came with Lepidous, Miles and that group.

Speaking of Whidmore...is there any doubt that Whidmore was Smokey at one point? He's basically got all the same motives as Smokey, to kill everyone on the Island. Maybe this was discussed in another thread, but if I don't jump on the threads early, I don't have the time to read through 300+ messages


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Had we seen the gangster before in another role?


Wasn't the gangster that picked up Sayid the "economist" he killed on the golf course?

Also, Ben killed Keamy in the island timeline, so that is another departure. I do believe they interacted on the ship.

Sayid just can't stop being a d-bag, no matter what timeline he is in..

ETA - I was wrong, the other gangster (who was shot in the stomach) was actually on the boat as well with Keamy..


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> He was the one Whidmore sent to kill off the Islanders. He came with Lepidous, Miles and that group.
> 
> Speaking of Whidmore...is there any doubt that Whidmore was Smokey at one point? He's basically got all the same motives as Smokey, to kill everyone on the Island. Maybe this was discussed in another thread, but if I don't jump on the threads early, I don't have the time to read through 300+ messages


I think at some point, we'll see a deal that was made between smokey and Widmore. Perhaps that's why he was banished (not really for having a child with an outsider)...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Keamy? He was the head of Widmore's mercenaries that came on the boat.


Yup, still a bully slimeball, but in a different profession. I thought he did a great acting job last night.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> He was the one Whidmore sent to kill off the Islanders. He came with Lepidous, Miles and that group.
> 
> Speaking of Whidmore...is there any doubt that Whidmore was Smokey at one point? He's basically got all the same motives as Smokey, to kill everyone on the Island. Maybe this was discussed in another thread, but if I don't jump on the threads early, I don't have the time to read through 300+ messages


I don't think he was smokey or smokey was him. That's impossible.

But it's an interesting question. What side is Whidmore on. Who does he work for?

He was an "other" with Richard but was always sort of a d-bag. Then, he told Locke that Locke had to get back to the Island because there was a war coming, and if Locke wasn't there, the wrong side would win.

Did Whidmore want real Locke on the Island and was wrong? Or did he want Locke to go back to the Island so smokey could take over?

And Jacob keeps saying that someone is coming. Who's coming to the Island? Whidmore?


----------



## jhowell (Sep 19, 2006)

jking said:


> You'd think Dogen would be a lot more worried about getting rid of Flocke than about using Flocke to get rid of Sayid.


Dogen was told by Jacob that he wouldn't see his son again. Maybe Dogen knew that his role in the 'game' was to be a sacrifice and that eventually Sayid was to kill him. Maybe he was trying to find his own loophole by having Sayid killed first. I am thinking that the game is like chess and Jacob is thinking far ahead of Flocke, sacrificing men (including himself) in order to manipulate things into a winning situation.

Edit: Another thought: Sacrifice plays also happen in baseball.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> I don't think he was smokey or smokey was him. That's impossible.
> 
> But it's an interesting question. What side is Whidmore on. Who does he work for?
> 
> ...


I forgot about Widmore's speech to locke about the wrong side winning, etc. 
At this point, Widmore is up in the air. He could be on MiB's side because of teh fact that he was banished, and maybe wants revenge now, but he could also still be "good" (i.e., on Jacob's side, if that's "good"), and his war is specifically with BEN, not the others. Hopefully we'll see soon.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Apparently, it's WHidmore, like WHipped cream


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I still have the feeling that Locke (the real Locke in the original island timeline, not unLocke) is still going to play a huge part despite his death. They are setting up Hurley and Jack vs. everyone else so the scales seem a little bit tipped right now.

Perhaps if Locke comes back to life somehow (or the Locke from the alternate timeline comes to the island), it will screw with Smokey somehow since he is now trapped in that body. I think "what Jack needs to do" involves saving Locke, not necessarily doing it himself.


----------



## jasrub (May 9, 2008)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Apparently, it's WHidmore, like WHipped cream


or WHil Wheaton?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mmilton80 said:


> What if Jacob and Smokey are the same people? Smokey is the darkness that Jacob expelled from him.


Jacob had gas?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Apparently, it's WHidmore, like WHipped cream


Let's change it back.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The "war" is like the layers of an onion.

First we had Jack vs. Locke (Man of Science vs. Man of Faith)
Then the Castaways vs. the Others
Then the Others vs. Dharma
Then Ben vs. Widmore
Now Jacob vs. the Smokey


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jking said:


> Dogen told him to plunge the knife into his chest before he spoke. Flocke did speak before Sayid stabbed him. I don't know if that has any significance, or if Dogen was indeed intending to send Sayid to his death. That doesn't make a lot of sense though. You'd think Dogen would be a lot more worried about getting rid of Flocke than about using Flocke to get rid of Sayid.





TiVotion said:


> I also really believe that Sayid failed to kill Flocke for the obvious simple reason we were given by Dogen. He said you have to kill him before he speaks to you, otherwise it's too late. As soon as Flocke spoke to Sayid first, I knew Sayid would fail.


I'm not convinced that he meant that literally. I think he was just trying to scare Sayid into thinking that Locke would kill him if he hesitated. Even though things did happen in that sequence, I just doubt that Locke would have died if Sayid had stabbed him before he said anything. Locke even said to Sayid something to the effect that Dogen had led Sayid to believe that Locke would kill Sayid if Sayid didn't kill him first.

I didn't think this was the worst episode, but I was disappointed given the last week's previews about questions being answered. It definitely didn't live up to the "we can't show you anything" hype.

I'm really anxious to find out the events surrounding Claire abandoning Aaron in the jungle and ending up in the cabin with Christian talking about how everything is going to be alright. For that matter, I'm anxious to find out the whole story behind Christian. I'm convinced that he's not really Christian in sort of the way that the current fake Locke isn't really Locke, but probably not quite the same way since Christian's body wasn't in the coffin, as Locke's was.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Do we really know that Whidmore wanted to kill everything? Isn't that what Ben said? What does he really want with the island?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I'm not convinced that he meant that literally. I think he was just trying to scare Sayid into thinking that Locke would kill him if he hesitated.


I think his point was just that if he let not-Locke talk to him, then not-Locke would work his way into his head and he'd be doomed. Which, of course, happened, which makes me wonder what Dogen _really _thought would happen. Because if he was being straight-forward, then his death is really pretty pathetic...


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> And Jacob keeps saying that someone is coming. Who's coming to the Island?





GDG76 said:


> They are setting up Hurley and Jack vs. everyone else so the scales seem a little bit tipped right now.


My WAG this week is that it's Desmond is who's coming. I think Desmond is a "wild-card" in the game somehow and will be on the White team. I also think Illana, Lapidus, Sun, Miles, Richard and even Ben will join up with Hurley and Jack. My alternate WAG is that Walt's coming...

Speaking of Richard; where was he this week? He's had ample time to get to the Temple since we last saw him talking to Sawyer.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

jhowell said:


> Dogen was told by Jacob that he wouldn't see his son again. Maybe Dogen knew that his role in the 'game' was to be a sacrifice and that eventually Sayid was to kill him. Maybe he was trying to find his own loophole by having Sayid killed first. I am thinking that the game is like chess and Jacob is thinking far ahead of Flocke, sacrificing men (including himself) in order to manipulate things into a winning situation.
> 
> Edit: Another thought: Sacrifice plays also happen in baseball.


...and of course we see/saw Dogen with his kid in Bizarro World, at the music recital/try out.

Try outs, just like in baseball.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

latrobe7 said:


> Speaking of Richard; where was he this week? He's had ample time to get to the Temple since we last saw him talking to Sawyer.


That's what I'd like to know. I was looking forward to him interacting with Dogen. I'm sure we'll get a quick, and possibly lame, one liner about where he's been once we see him again.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

One liner about him being away, applying his eyeliner?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

People whose whereabouts aren't clear although they should be at the temple: Richard, Sawyer, and Jin.

Sawyer was with SmokeyLocke and Jin was with Claire. What happened to them?

Next time we see Sawyer is he going to be possessed like Sayid and Claire or has he been claimed in a different way?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think his point was just that if he let not-Locke talk to him, then not-Locke would work his way into his head and he'd be doomed. Which, of course, happened, which makes me wonder what Dogen _really _thought would happen. Because if he was being straight-forward, then his death is really pretty pathetic...


If so, then he must not have known that not-Locke was un-killable, right? Otherwise, why bother telling Sayid to even try killing him in the first place, unless he did know that not-Locke was un-killable, but assumed incorrectly that he would kill Sayid for trying.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I'm not convinced that he meant that literally. I think he was just trying to scare Sayid into thinking that Locke would kill him if he hesitated. Even though things did happen in that sequence, I just doubt that Locke would have died if Sayid had stabbed him before he said anything. Locke even said to Sayid something to the effect that Dogen had led Sayid to believe that Locke would kill Sayid if Sayid didn't kill him first.


I'm not convinced he meant it literally either, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to send out the one person in the temple who has a tendency to go dark side into a situation that you know he has no chance of winning. Best case scenario he's going to kill Sayid for him... which is not likely since he's recruiting and needs bodies. Worst case he's going turn Sayid. And we saw how that turned out. It was either really bad management by Dogen, or he actually thought Sayid had a chance of killing Flocke.


----------



## Freshman JS (Nov 8, 2002)

TiVotion said:


> I think you may have hit the crux of the entire ending, right here.
> 
> Since this season's "flash sideways", I have thought that we are actually being shown the extended ending of the story, parallel with the on-island story. My theory is, at the end of the show, it will turn out that we've actually been watching the final disposition of the characters all along this season. Something will happen during the on-island story that will set the "non-crash" storyline into motion and make it end up being the actual timeline/reality/ending.
> 
> ...


I was thinking along these lines too, but then how does Dogen end up in the alternate timeline if he's dead?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Freshman JS said:


> I was thinking along these lines too, but then how does Dogen end up in the alternate timeline if he's dead?


Same way Locke and Boone and Charlie and Keamy do.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jking said:


> Well, technically Sayid doesn't have Nadia.





jkeegan said:


> Fair enough. He does say "and I'll never see [Nadia] again" and Locke said "what if you could?", so maybe Sayid made a poorly phrased wish to a weasling genie?


It is interesting though, isn't it? Dogen wanted his son to live, his son did live, but he couldn't be with him. Sayid wants Nadia to live, and in the alternate timeline, she does, but he doesn't have her. This sort of thing goes way back: Juliet wanted her sister to live. She did, but Juliet couldn't be with her. That makes me wonder about what Juliet was actually seeing at the time, could that have been a flash-sideways, seen in the monitor?



Fool Me Twice said:


> Ilana and friends sorta came out of nowhere. I'm guessing they ran out of time and cut a scene.


Call me strange, but I actually kind of liked that. Just as you're thinking, "What about Ilana's gang?" BAM, they show up, although Jin & Sawyer are still unaccounted for.



stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?





Alfer said:


> Maybe some here just like the skeevy white trash types?


Mmm, Miles seemed to think she was hot. 



uncdrew said:


> I didn't like wimpy glasses dude, but did Sayid have to kill him? Seemed gratuitous.


Evil. EVIIIIIIIIL!

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Freshman JS said:


> I was thinking along these lines too, but then how does Dogen end up in the alternate timeline if he's dead?


Not to mention the federal marshall.

Greg


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

gchance said:


> It is interesting though, isn't it? Dogen wanted his son to live, his son did live, but he couldn't be with him. Sayid wants Nadia to live, and in the alternate timeline, she does, but he doesn't have her. This sort of thing goes way back: Juliet wanted her sister to live. She did, but Juliet couldn't be with her. That makes me wonder about what Juliet was actually seeing at the time, could that have been a flash-sideways, seen in the monitor?


Possible. I actually never thought Juliet's sister's cancer came back in the first place. I always figured it was a story cooked up by Ben to keep Juliet on the island.


----------



## golfnut-n-nh (Nov 30, 2004)

Adding kindle to the fire that FLocke might be "good", is a Biblical incident that Jesus cleaned out the temple where moneychangers were present. FLocke/Smokey cleaned out the temple where evil was present? Dogen did sell his soul.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Apparently, it's WHidmore, like WHipped cream





jasrub said:


> or WHil Wheaton?


You want some Kool WHip?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jking said:


> Possible. I actually never thought Juliet's sister's cancer came back in the first place. I always figured it was a story cooked up by Ben to keep Juliet on the island.


Yes, we did, and I love how these episodes are all making us rethink what we've seen previously. This show is amazing.



golfnut-n-nh said:


> Adding kindle to the fire that FLocke might be "good", is a Biblical incident that Jesus cleaned out the temple where moneychangers were present. FLocke/Smokey cleaned out the temple where evil was present? Dogen did sell his soul.


Except Jesus didn't kill anyone. 

Greg


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

gchance said:


> Yes, we did, and I love how these episodes are all making us rethink what we've seen previously. This show is amazing.
> 
> Except Jesus didn't kill anyone.
> 
> Greg


Jesus=God, closing the Red Sea on the Egyptians, and all the other nonsense.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TiVotion said:


> I also really believe that Sayid failed to kill Flocke for the obvious simple reason we were given by Dogen. He said you have to kill him before he speaks to you, otherwise it's too late. As soon as Flocke spoke to Sayid first, I knew Sayid would fail.


No, UnLocke can't be killed because he's not mortal. But Dogen thought that the second an attack was made on him, Unlocke woudl go all Smokey on him, just like he did when he was shot by the guys in the Foot Statue. Unfortunately for Dogen, Unlocke has bigger plans for Sayid.


JYoung said:


> And I don't think that Jacob is clear cut good and Fake Locke clear cut evil.
> Fake Locke just killed a bunch of people and Jacob essentially stood by and let it happen.


How did Jacob let it happen? Jacob is dead.


Fool Me Twice said:


> Keamy? He was the head of Widmore's mercenaries that came on the boat.


And don't forget that it was Keamy who "broke the rules" by killing Alex right in front of Ben.


Freshman JS said:


> I was thinking along these lines too, but then how does Dogen end up in the alternate timeline if he's dead?


Don't forget that Dogen just died in 2007, but the flash sideways is 2004, so it's going to reset people's lives back to a point before they were ever on the Island to begin with. And given that we've now seen that Jack has a teenage son and had his appendix out when he was seven, that reset is going to go back much earlier than just 2004.


----------



## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

gchance said:


> although Jin & Sawyer are still unaccounted for.
> 
> Greg


Considering the condition of his leg, Jin is probably still back at Claire's camp.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Honora said:


> Considering the condition of his leg, Jin is probably still back at Claire's camp.


Quite possibly, with an ax in his chest.

Speaking of killing off major characters. I was REALLY hoping Kate would be the next one in last night's episode. I've never liked her character. Oh well. Maybe next week.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This quote from Alan Sepinwall's blog perfectly encapsulates my feelings about Dogen, Ben and every other Other who chose to not use plain old common sense when dealing with the Oceanic castaways:



> I'm not exactly sure where Dogen ranked on the Others' corporate hierarchy relative to Ben, but the two guys clearly attended the same leadership seminar, one that involves lying and torturing when the truth upfront would be much more useful - and that then puts you in a very bad spot when you suddenly need your torture victim to trust you. The Others need a better HR rep next time out, I think


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> No, UnLocke can't be killed because he's not mortal.


 Well, neither is Jacob (apparently), but he could be "killed".



> How did Jacob let it happen? Jacob is dead.


Jacob could have had Hurley warn Dogen and the Temple-folk; instead he just got Hurley and Jack out of there.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> They are setting up Hurley and Jack vs. everyone else so the scales seem a little bit tipped right now.





latrobe7 said:


> My WAG this week is that it's Desmond is who's coming. I think Desmond is a "wild-card" in the game somehow and will be on the White team. I also think Illana, Lapidus, Sun, Miles, Richard and even Ben will join up with Hurley and Jack. My alternate WAG is that Walt's coming...
> 
> Speaking of Richard; where was he this week? He's had ample time to get to the Temple since we last saw him talking to Sawyer.





aindik said:


> People whose whereabouts aren't clear although they should be at the temple: Richard, Sawyer, and Jin.
> 
> Sawyer was with SmokeyLocke and Jin was with Claire. What happened to them?
> 
> Next time we see Sawyer is he going to be possessed like Sayid and Claire or has he been claimed in a different way?


Although I don't know what "WAG" is, I suspect that Sawyer wasn't actually sold on unLocke's offer to "go home". Remember, Sawyer/Ford is a rebel and a con artist, and doesn't really have any "home" to go back to. I kinda' think he might've conned unLocke and isn't waiting in the grotto for unLocke and his minions to return. And Kate doesn't really belong with unLocke's minions, but is following more out of curiosity. I still say that Kate will play a major role in the outcome, even though she is not listed as a "candidate".

I also like the theory of Desmond returning with Widmore. <--- no "h".


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

getreal said:


> Although I don't know what "WAG" is


Wild-ass guess.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, neither is Jacob (apparently), but he could be "killed".


But we've never seen Jacob take any form other than a human form. Unlocke, on the other hand, is very clearly just a human manifestation of the Smoke Monster.


----------



## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Freshman JS said:


> I was thinking along these lines too, but then how does Dogen end up in the alternate timeline if he's dead?


The alternate time line takes place before he died. Oops beaten to the punch.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

At Jacob's cabin there was a circle of ash around it. But I'm not sure why. I don't think it was to keep smokey out. Smokey couldn't kill Jacob directly. Otherwise he would have done it much sooner and not set up this big plan that's going on now. Jacob was living in the statue without ash around it and Lock walked right in it. 

The people that need the ash circle are the regular humans. So I'm wondering who was living in the cabin that was referred to as "Jacob's cabin".

Maybe what Locke heard when he was in the cabin with Ben was something other than Jacob or smokey.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Apparently, it's WHidmore, like *Cool WHip*


FYP


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

getreal said:


> Although I don't know what "WAG" is, I suspect that Sawyer wasn't actually sold on unLocke's offer to "go home". Remember, Sawyer/Ford is a rebel and a con artist, and doesn't really have any "home" to go back to. I kinda' think he might've conned unLocke and isn't waiting in the grotto for unLocke and his minions to return. And Kate doesn't really belong with unLocke's minions, but is following more out of curiosity. I still say that Kate will play a major role in the outcome, even though she is not listed as a "candidate".
> 
> I also like the theory of Desmond returning with Widmore. <--- no "h".


WAG = Wild Ass Guess

I totally believe Sawyer is going to run a long-con on Flocke - whether he has decided to do so yet or not. I believe that at the last minute, when things look darkest for Jack and the "good-guys", Sawyer's gonna flip and catch Flocke off guard, like Han Solo coming out of nowhere to knock Darth Vader's Tie fighter out into space (I can even hear Sawyer saying "You're all clear Doc, now let's blow this thing and go home!" ); or like Darth Vader throwing the Emperor over the side into the heart of the Death Star...


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

brermike said:


> The sideways story brought an interesting perspective to the Sayid character. While the story was pretty simple and a little surprising (Jin?? Nice!), there was one scene that really painted this Sayid as one who has been redeemed. It was when he tells Nadia that he doesn't deserve her. This was very touching and it adds fuel to the fire that we are seeing the redemption storyline play out in this sideways world.


sayid is far from redeemed... he ends up killing in the end...again.


mrdazzo7 said:


> Also, did anyone else notice that the guy who grabbed Kate from the pit totally wrapped his hands around her chest, hahaha. Lennon came in and said "time's up" and the random Other was like "I'll get her!" and full-on felt her up.


hasn't that happened to kate before? ... yeah, when the others first got a hold of the list people, and they were on the dock... and one of the others copped a feel on kate.



jking said:


> Dogen told him to plunge the knife into his chest before he spoke. Flocke did speak before Sayid stabbed him. I don't know if that has any significance, or if Dogen was indeed intending to send Sayid to his death. That doesn't make a lot of sense though. You'd think Dogen would be a lot more worried about getting rid of Flocke than about using Flocke to get rid of Sayid.


but dogen ended being right to worry about sayid... flocke convinced him to kill dogen.



stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?


my favorite miles line of the week... she's still hot... 
and the context is great, with kate frantic, asking serious questions.. and that's what he comes up with...



danterner said:


> I thought it was interesting that when Dogen was describing one side as good, one side as evil, he didn't clarify which side was which. We're still being left to assume that Jacob is good and Flocke is evil. Although, after the events of this episode, it certainly seems as though Flocke = evil.


i thought he told sayid that flocke was "evil incarnate"

good ep, but my head was spinning after... i'm confused.


----------



## sshedlock (May 14, 2004)

Below is something I found interesting (Keep in mind this is spoilerish, and my own WAG - look at your own risk.):



Spoiler



Lost Last Supper Promo Picture

I have had this on my desktop for as long as the season started. As the episodes have gone on, I think it has become more and more interesting to look at. Flocke in the middle of the table (or the scale?) with certain people on both sides....and Jack and Sawyer the closest to the middle. Picture link below:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20337090,00.html


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> But we've never seen Jacob take any form other than a human form. Unlocke, on the other hand, is very clearly just a human manifestation of the Smoke Monster.


Well, yeah he was in 'human' form - as human as someone can be who has lived in a foot statue for at least 160 years and not aged...

I tend to agree that Sayid could not have killed Flocke; but then again, we don't know what we don't know - maybe that dagger is like a silver-bullet to Flocke.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?


Claire *is* hot. The makeup people will have to work *much harder* to ever make Emilie De Ravin not hot.



Turtleboy said:


> ...And Jacob keeps saying that someone is coming. Who's coming to the Island? Whidmore?


In last season's finale, Jacob said "*They're* coming." Plural. IMO, it's the beings that originally sent Jacob/MIB to Earth.



hefe said:


> Let's change it _(Widmore)_ back.


:up:



Magister said:


> Do we really know that Whidmore wanted to kill everything? Isn't that what Ben said? What does he really want with the island?


Good point -- we don't really know what Widmore's intentions were. In fact, Faraday and Charlotte explicitly "turned off" the mechanism that would've allowed somebody to gas everybody on the Island. But I still find it interesting that that phrase "every living thing" keeps showing up in the dialog.

IMO, it is obvious now that Jacob represents good and Not-Locke represents evil. The writers have indicated that Stephen King's "The Stand" is one of their influences, and in that book, you as the reader pretty much always knew which side was good and which side was evil (even if some of the characters didn't). If Hurley and Jack are on your side, then you are pretty much on the "light team," IMO. All you need to fill out your roster is Rose, Bernard, and Vincent. 

So Locke now has some of his team assembled -- Claire, Sawyer, and Sayid. It would seem now that Jack will have to step up to lead the "light team," or else let Ilana/Richard run the show. I imagine the next episode or 2 will have some of that.

Speaking of Ilana -- what about her as a candidate for Jack's wife? She and Jack will probably have to work pretty closely on the "light team" the rest of the season.


----------



## Freshman JS (Nov 8, 2002)

aindik said:


> Same way Locke and Boone and Charlie and Keamy do.


right, sure. but doesnt this kind of contradict the theory that the ending is flocke sending everybody home to the alternate timeline to fulfill promises he's made to them?

it everybody gets the prize, even those who are dead or didn't do what he wanted them to, then i'm not sure that theory holds up.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

In my opinion, Claire is pretty, not hot. A big difference.


----------



## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

The thing that I haven't figured out yet is how did Jin go from being in custody by Customs at LAX for a currency violation to being Keamy's prisoner?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

sshedlock said:


> Below is something I found interesting (Keep in mind this is spoilerish, and my own WAG - look at your own risk.):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It will be interesting to see if your theory turns out to be correct, since Ben and Lapidus are on the Jack/Hurley side, while Richard and Ilana are on the Sawyer/Sayid/Claire side. If there's going to be a split in that group, I'll definitely want to see how that plays out.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Claire is definitely hot, normally anyway. Not so much right now with the squirrel hair.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Freshman JS said:


> right, sure. but doesnt this kind of contradict the theory that the ending is flocke sending everybody home to the alternate timeline to fulfill promises he's made to them?
> 
> it everybody gets the prize, even those who are dead or didn't do what he wanted them to, then i'm not sure that theory holds up.


Sure it does. So long as Sayid gets what he wants, why would it matter, to him or even to SmokeyLocke, if other characters who don't do what Sayid did also get what they want?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

bruinfan said:


> sayid is far from redeemed... he ends up killing in the end...again.


I doubt that Sayid, in the alternate universe, would consider himself redeemed. But at the same time, there's a big difference between going out and seeking vengeance on your own and being kidnapped and had the lives of your niece and nephew threatened (much less the girl you love). In the latter situation, I wouldn't consider his efforts at redemption to be erased, as in that case he made the conscious decision to not go after the thugs, but they went after him anyway. At that point he did what he had to do to protect himself and his family.


----------



## Freshman JS (Nov 8, 2002)

aindik said:


> Sure it does. So long as Sayid gets what he wants, why would it matter, to him or even to SmokeyLocke, if other characters who don't do what Sayid did also get what they want?


agree that is possible, but it would make the current island storyline pretty uninteresting if everybody gets what they want regardless of what side they chose.


----------



## rbraddes (Aug 27, 2005)

T-Wolves said:


> ... But I still find it interesting that that phrase "every living thing" keeps showing up in the dialog. ...


Wouldn't sinking the island kill every living thing? Plants, bugs, people, animals, everything but the Dharma shark.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Freshman JS said:


> agree that is possible, but it would make the current island storyline pretty uninteresting if everybody gets what they want regardless of what side they chose.


They get what they want only if Locke wins. But once Locke wins, everyone gets what they want regardless of what side they chose.

(The way I write this, it sounds like Locke is "the good guy," which probably isn't the case).


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

After 5.5 seasons, I still can't get over the fact that they have an Indian playing an Iraqi.


----------



## SugarBowl (Jan 5, 2007)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, neither is Jacob (apparently), but he could be "killed".
> 
> Jacob could have had Hurley warn Dogen and the Temple-folk; instead he just got Hurley and Jack out of there.


They must feel pretty special. Until they get back, and see that everyone in the temple was wiped out, except for everyone that they actually know.


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

jasrub said:


> or WHil Wheaton?


What this Sandwich needs is a little Miracle WHip


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> After 5.5 seasons, I still can't get over the fact that they have an Indian playing an Iraqi.


Actually, he's English.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Actually, he's English.


I know. That doesn't help, either


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

By the way, Naveen Andrews, IMHO, outcreeped Michael Emerson last night in the creepy evil smile department


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Claire is definitely hot, normally anyway. Not so much right now with the squirrel hair.


Yeah, for sure. The line was pretty funny the way Miles said it, but then when I thought about how she looks now, I'm thinking wtf is he talking about?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

T-Wolves said:


> Claire *is* hot. The makeup people will have to work *much harder* to ever make Emilie De Ravin not hot.


Amen, Bruthah!










She's definitely hot. IMO, the way they're making her look disheveled and crazy on the show doesn't make her any less hot. It's like when they put glasses on a hot chick and she's suddenly supposed to be plain. We all know that doesn't really work.


----------



## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

ronsch said:


> The thing that I haven't figured out yet is how did Jin go from being in custody by Customs at LAX for a currency violation to being Keamy's prisoner?


The money was meant for Gangster Keamy. Customs took the money. Keamy grabbed Jin and is trying to interrogate him to find out where his money went.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

rondotcom said:


> By the way, Naveen Andrews, IMHO, outcreeped Michael Emerson last night in the creepy evil smile department


Yeah, when Ben saw Sayid, he immediately knew Sayid had been infected. If this were Ben's wife's show, True Blood,


Spoiler



we'd have seen Sayid with his eyes completely black.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...

So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.

So how did Sayid know that Kate wasn't Smokey, but Flocke was?

Also, is Kate still a candidate? I was thinking that the reason Flocke didn't kill her was that she was touched by Jacob.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Jesus=God, closing the Red Sea on the Egyptians, and all the other nonsense.


I was talking about the money changers in the temple.



DevdogAZ said:


> Amen, Bruthah!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very, but no amount of hotness is going to make me see that movie they advertised that she's in with "Look at my hair, I'm the new James Dean" Patteson. GEEEEEZ.

Greg


----------



## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Shakhari said:


> OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...
> 
> So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.
> 
> ...


He said it would be someone who was dead that he would appear as. Im thinking they all knew Locke was dead.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...
> 
> So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.
> 
> So how did Sayid know that Kate wasn't Smokey, but Flocke was?


Because Dogen also said that Smokey would be posing as someone who had died. Hmm, did Sayid know that Locke died?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...
> 
> So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.
> 
> So how did Sayid know that Kate wasn't Smokey, but Flocke was?


Dogen told Sayid that the someone Sayid knows is someone who was dead.

And yeah, Sayid knew that Locke was dead. He was the one who told Hurley that Locke ("Bentham") was dead.



Shakhari said:


> Also, is Kate still a candidate? I was thinking that the reason Flocke didn't kill her was that she was touched by Jacob.


Could be. Though, if Smokey can't do anything to candidates touched by Jacob, why did Jacob think it was so important that Jack and Hurley not be there.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shakhari said:


> OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...
> 
> So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.
> 
> So how did Sayid know that Kate wasn't Smokey, but Flocke was?


Kate's not dead.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Shakhari said:


> OK, so Dogen tells Sayid that Smokey will look like someone Sayid knows, and Sayid should stab Smokey in the chest before Smokey says anything ...
> 
> So the first person Sayid runs into outside the temple is Kate. Not only does he not attack her, the two exchange pleasantries. But the instant Sayid sees Flocke, he takes his shot.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing. Right when I saw Kate I was like "sayid is gonna waster her a**!" but it didn't even occur to him. The only thing I can think of is because Dogen specified that the person had died, so I guess even though he hasn't seen her in a day or two, he assumed that she hadn't died. Kind of stupid on his part because she could have easily been Flocke.

Was anyone else a little surprised when Sayid actually DID stab Flocke though? I didn't think he would have listened to Dogen, but he did. And I didn't think about it but you're probably right as to why Flocke didn't kill Kate--he can't. Is the running theory still that MiB can't kill anyone that Jacob has touched?


----------



## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Kate's not dead.


But he wouldn't have known that...she could have been killed just prior to when he ventured out.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I doubt that Sayid, in the alternate universe, would consider himself redeemed. But at the same time, there's a big difference between going out and seeking vengeance on your own and being kidnapped and had the lives of your niece and nephew threatened (much less the girl you love). In the latter situation, I wouldn't consider his efforts at redemption to be erased, as in that case he made the conscious decision to not go after the thugs, but they went after him anyway. At that point he did what he had to do to protect himself and his family.


Well up until the point he shot Keamy.

Although I suppose it could be argued that he knew Keamy was full of it and he knew that Keamy would come after him and the family later.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Alfer said:


> But he wouldn't have known that...she could have been killed just prior to when he ventured out.


 He would have no reason to ASSume that. He knew Locke had died.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> He would have no reason to ASSume that. He knew Locke had died.


This is one instance where there is convoluted dialogue that serves no purpose. "He will appear to you as someone you know. Someone who has died" is vague for no reason. How about "he will appear to you as John Locke." Is that too hard to say?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

aindik said:


> This is one instance where there is convoluted dialogue that serves no purpose. "He will appear to you as someone you now. Someone who has died" is vague for no reason. How about "he will appear to you as John Locke." Is that too hard to say?


Dogen didn't know it's Locke.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Well up until the point he shot Keamy.
> 
> Although I suppose it could be argued that he knew Keamy was full of it and he knew that Keamy would come after him and the family later.


Did anyone watch that scene and think, sure, the mobster guy is going to keep his word and forgive the debt and Sayid's family? C'mon. As soon as Sayid left, Keamy would have rounded up more lackeys and gone after him. We knew he was full of it, and so did Sayid. He really had no choice but to shoot him.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Dogen didn't know it's Locke.


How does he know it's someone Sayid knows, but not know who?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> is Kate still a candidate? I was thinking that the reason Flocke didn't kill her was that she was touched by Jacob.


At this point, Kate has been touched by a number of people. 

But she was NEVER A CANDIDATE. Candidates had their names listed on the grotto walls and on the lighthouse gear.

Yes, Jacob touched her when she was a child, which pre-determined her eventual fate in coming to the island. Her purpose is different from the rest of them.



latrobe7 said:


> He would have no reason to ASSume that. He knew Locke had died.


:up:



aindik said:


> This is one instance where there is convoluted dialogue that serves no purpose. "He will appear to you as someone you *k*now. Someone who has died" is vague for no reason. How about "he will appear to you as John Locke." Is that too hard to say?


It allows for some room for error and risk element for Sayid. Nobody is that straightforward in "LOST".


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> How does he know it's someone Sayid knows, but not know who?


Probably an old prophecy a la Oedipus Rex.

If nothing else, "Lost" makes many classic and not-so-classic literary references.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

aindik said:


> How does he know it's someone Sayid knows, but not know who?


Because He Who Has Never Been Named (Unlocke? Flocke? Voldemort?) always shows as a dead person the showee knew?


----------



## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Looking at the Last Supper pics again I noticed (maybe its been mentioned already) that at each end of the "table" are airline seats. And the table appears to be a wing I think...


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

aindik said:


> How does he know it's someone Sayid knows, but not know who?


cuz maybe that's smokey's MO


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Because He Who Has Never Been Named (Unlocke? Flocke? Voldemort?) always shows as a dead person the showee knew?


That depends. If the Christian Shepard who appeared on the island is actually Smokey, he has shown up in that form to people who have no reason to know who Christian Shepard is, including Locke and Sun.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?





DUDE_NJX said:


> In my opinion, Claire is pretty, not hot. A big difference.


She is hot! And even if she was just pretty, the accent would make her hot!

Everything else I had marked to quote and discussed has already been answered.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

getreal said:


> At this point, Kate has been touched by a number of people.
> 
> But she was NEVER A CANDIDATE. Candidates had their names listed on the grotto walls and on the lighthouse gear.


Well, "Austen" does show up in the lighthouse next to number 51 (click to enlarge):



[perv]and I wouldn't mind "touching" Kate. I've never been much of a fan; but she's been wearing those so-tight-they-look-sprayed-on jeans and t-shirt since The Incident and I have become quite fond of that outfit![/perv]


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, "Austen" does show up in the lighthouse next to number 51 (click to enlarge):
> 
> 
> 
> [perv]and I wouldn't mind "touching" Kate. I've never been much of a fan; but she's been wearing those so-tight-they-look-sprayed-on jeans and t-shirt since The Incident and I have become quite fond of that outfit![/perv]


If anything, she'd fall into my "p&d" category. Long term = Juliet.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

gchance said:


> Yes, we did, and I love how these episodes are all making us rethink what we've seen previously. This show is amazing.


Yes we did what?



DUDE_NJX said:


> Speaking of killing off major characters. I was REALLY hoping Kate would be the next one in last night's episode. I've never liked her character. Oh well. Maybe next week.


Agreed. Unfortunately, not likely.



getreal said:


> Although I don't know what "WAG" is, I suspect that Sawyer wasn't actually sold on unLocke's offer to "go home". Remember, Sawyer/Ford is a rebel and a con artist, and doesn't really have any "home" to go back to. I kinda' think he might've conned unLocke and isn't waiting in the grotto for unLocke and his minions to return. And Kate doesn't really belong with unLocke's minions, but is following more out of curiosity. I still say that Kate will play a major role in the outcome, even though she is not listed as a "candidate".


Also agree that Sawyer is playing Flocke. Perhaps not necessarily a con at this point, but waiting to see how it plays out. He's too smart to go all in just based on the line Flocke gave him in the cave. And yes, I think Kate counts as a candidate. She was listed on the lighthouse at number 51, and her name wasn't crossed out. So she's still active.



ronsch said:


> The thing that I haven't figured out yet is how did Jin go from being in custody by Customs at LAX for a currency violation to being Keamy's prisoner?


I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

I'm wondering if we don't know Smokey's name (ala Jacob) for a reason. What if we find out his name is Aaron?

Remember, Claire was told that she *must* raise the child, and it seems as though she didn't. Maybe that's why she was the first "recruit".

Only throwing this out there, as it seems as though the forces on the island have a special interest in the well being of children (and they have problems with women giving birth on the island). I don't think they've really addressed this logic yet, if they are going to. 

Which leads me to consider Charlie (Desmond's son) or Sun/Jin's kid as a possible factor...

It's also possible that Aaron being raised in two realities has a factor.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sonnik said:


> Only throwing this out there, as it seems as though the forces on the island have a special interest in the well being of children (and they have problems with women giving birth on the island). I don't think they've really addressed this logic yet, if they are going to.


I'm not sure they need to. Women stopped surviving pregnancy after the Incident. The Others started looking out for children after they stopped being able to have their own. It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that...


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Did anyone in the temple know that Jacob was dead before Sayid told them?

If so, wouldn't they know who killed him? 

Ilana seems to know that Smokey is fixed in his current John Locke form (I guess, apart from when he turns into smoke). Is there a reason why Dogen and the other guy wouldn't know that, if she does?

Even if Dogen didn't know that Smokey was in the form of John Locke, why wouldn't Sayid ask? 
"He will appear to you as someone you know who has died."
"Who?"
"I don't know."


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

aindik said:


> Did anyone in the temple know that Jacob was dead before Sayid told them?
> 
> If so, wouldn't they know who killed him?
> 
> ...


Hurley told Dogen that Jacob was dead. They then shut down the Temple.

Ilana has seen Smoky in John's "flesh." Dogen has not. Also, Claire does not see Smokey as John...but her "friend." Sure she is crazy, but are we sure that everyone see's him as John Locke?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mmilton80 said:


> Hurley told Dogen that Jacob was dead. They then shut down the Temple.


Ah, so they knew, but not from someone who was there. When Hurley told him that, a) did he already know, and b) did he believe what he heard?



mmilton80 said:


> Ilana has seen Smoky in John's "flesh." Dogen has not. Also, Claire does not see Smokey as John...but her "friend." Sure she is crazy, but are we sure that everyone see's him as John Locke?


I think Claire sees him as John but knows he's not John. Like Sawyer and Sayid immediately did.

If she sees him in some form other than the John Locke form, she's the only one so far who has. Everyone else, from Sawyer to Richard to Ben, sees him as John Locke.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, "Austen" does show up in the lighthouse next to number 51 (click to enlarge):





jking said:


> ... I think Kate counts as a candidate. She was listed on the lighthouse at number 51, and her name wasn't crossed out. So she's still active.


I stand corrected about Kate as her name was indeed on the lighthouse gear. Forgot that detail. But since 51 isn't part of the magic 6 numbers, I still doubt her candidacy.

And thinking about Jacob's light-house and Smokey's dark-house (grotto), the phrase "smoke and mirrors" comes to mind ...


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

SmokeyLocke presented the cave to Sawyer as a place Jacob hung out. Are we assuming now that SmokeyLocke is lying about that? If so, what do we think as to the veracity of the stuff he told Sawyer in there. How much of that stuff is true?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

aindik said:


> Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?


.... for Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple...?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

aindik said:


> SmokeyLocke presented the cave to Sawyer as a place Jacob hung out. Are we assuming now that SmokeyLocke is lying about that? If so, what do we think as to the veracity of the stuff he told Sawyer in there. How much of that stuff is true?


I think that the cave was his hangout, not Jacob's. I'm basing this on the symbolism I read into the two locations. I think Jacob is supposed to represent white, light, order and good; while Flocke is supposed to represent black, dark, chaos and evil. I think it makes sense that Jacob's copy of the list would be kept in nice, neat order in a lighthouse; while Flocke's copy is a jumble of scrawling on the wall of a dark cave.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

mmilton80 said:


> What if Jacob and Smokey are the same people? Smokey is the darkness that Jacob expelled from him.


I like this. :up:



aindik said:


> Ah, so they knew, but not from someone who was there. When Hurley told him that, a) did he already know, and b) did he believe what he heard?
> 
> .


Besides Hurley telling him Jacob was dead they also set off some kind of a flare from the beach that meant Jacob was dead. Still he knew no details.

I don't get this infection thing in Sayid and Claire. The other candidates seem to have a choice to make, but they have lost their ability to choose because of their "infection." Sayid may have gone with Smokey anyway, but Claire always was a good person. So dead candidates can be stolen?

The more I see of Smokey, the more it seems that the monster is just his natural form. Before I thought it was just a form he took for killing, but now he travels that way, and seems to be hanging out like that until he needs to talk to a human.

I wonder if there's any significance to Sayid killing Dogen and Lennon in the "magic" water?

I don't know why Dogen would think that Locke would kill Sayid when he's such a prime candidate for recruitment.

If Locke can only be killed by one of his own, which seemed to be the rule with Jacob, I'd guess it would be Sawyer.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> II wonder if there's any significance to Sayid killing Dogen and Lennon in the "magic" water?


Maybe a hint that we'll see 'dead' Dogen in later episodes.

Actors gotta luv LOST. Great gig when your character gets killed and you still get more paydays.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> SmokeyLocke presented the cave to Sawyer as a place Jacob hung out. Are we assuming now that SmokeyLocke is lying about that? If so, what do we think as to the veracity of the stuff he told Sawyer in there. How much of that stuff is true?


I think that the grotto probably leads to a network of tunnels underneath the island, and this would explain how, in Season 1, Locke was grabbed by Smokey and dragged toward a hole in the jungle, and Locke was prepared to let it take him, but Jack and Kate and Sawyer pulled him back until Smokey gave up for another time.

It would also explain why Smokey can blow a tree straight up in the air from the roots. Just like Bugs Bunny can tunnel underneath a garden and pull carrots down. 



aindik said:


> Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?


You're misremembering things. Jacob only told Hurley to bring Jack to the lighthouse. And he stopped Hurley from trying to warn the others about the big baddie heading to the Temple, as it was already too late.


----------



## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

You know, someone mentioned that maybe Claire doesn't see Flocke as Locke. She was just referring to him as "my friend", and in fact said to Jin when Jin said (at Claire's camp) "John?", something like "No, not John. This is my friend". If she's not seeing Flocke as Locke and she sees him as someone else, it would make perfect sense that she sees him as Christian Shepard. After all, Christian was hanging with her before she disappeared. But where does this Christian Ghost fit into all of this?

As the series draws to a close, I can't help but think of all the mysterious things that probably never will be answered. Perhaps we should start making a list. Especially all those "apparitions" like the horse Kate saw...Ben seeing his mother...Hurley's mysterious "visions" like Libby...etc. Or who knows. Maybe Smokey was all of those forms. I dunno. It's exhausting.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

danterner said:


> I thought it was interesting that when Dogen was describing one side as good, one side as evil, he didn't clarify which side was which. We're still being left to assume that Jacob is good and Flocke is evil. Although, after the events of this episode, it certainly seems as though Flocke = evil.





bruinfan said:


> i thought he told sayid that flocke was "evil incarnate"


Dogen said, to Sayid, "Inside every man is a scale. On one side good, one the other side evil. Your scale tipped the wrong way." The point I was making above is that Dogen didn't say whether Sayid's scale had tipped toward good or toward evil. The dialog seemed purposefully vague. Later he did describe flocke as "evil incarnate," though - you're right.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> You know, someone mentioned that maybe Claire doesn't see Flocke as Locke. She was just referring to him as "my friend", and in fact said to Jin when Jin said (at Claire's camp) "John?", something like "No, not John. This is my friend". If she's not seeing Flocke as Locke and she sees him as someone else, it would make perfect sense that she sees him as Christian Shepard. After all, Christian was hanging with her before she disappeared. But where does this Christian Ghost fit into all of this?


I think she sees him as he is, either figuratively or literally. But probably figuratively. She sees him as her friend, because although she knows he's not Locke, she believes the creature is her friend.

(And if she's been hanging out with it in the jungle for three years, that would go a way towards explaining her mental state...)


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

this was a great episode.

the alternate reality would make a good primetime drama spinoff 

You guys should settle on a name for the bad guy...everyone seems to have their own clever iteration going. How about Locke?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

MIB seems to be the most popular name for the bad guy in LOST fandom.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

aindik said:


> Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?





getreal said:


> You're misremembering things. Jacob only told Hurley to bring Jack to the lighthouse. And he stopped Hurley from trying to warn the others about the big baddie heading to the Temple, as it was already too late.


He did both. What he expected from the first? I really don't know. You'd think he'd know the waters had been fouled and wouldn't heal Sayid. Though I still think Jacob is a good guy it's hard not to imagine that, no matter what happens, Jacob is a step ahead the whole time. And though we've seen him let Nadia die when he could have saved her (no doubt her death was part of his plan), allowing Sayid to lose his soul would be on another level of cold-heartedness altogether. Then again, it was Sayid who made the final choice.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

aindik said:


> Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?


Sayid was brought to Temple and then dunked in a Mikvah. Is he Jewish now?


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

rondotcom said:


> By the way, Naveen Andrews, IMHO, outcreeped Michael Emerson last night in the creepy evil smile department


OMG! Totally-I was watching in my bed, and pulled up the covers tight-I was SCARED!!!!  Naveen Andrews is a GREAT ACTOR!!

Ok-and someone said they want to P & D Kate-what does that mean? I could guess, but???

LOL Turtleboy-that mikvah is GROSS-needs some bleach!


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Regina said:


> Ok-and someone said they want to P & D Kate-what does that mean?)


vulgar expression for a one night stand


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> vulgar expression for a one night stand


I figured as much-but wanted to know what the letters stood for-Pump & Dump? Am I right?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MonsterJoe said:


> vulgar expression for a one night stand


Also a kind of fraudulent stock transaction, if that helps...


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Regina said:


> I figured as much-but wanted to know what the letters stood for-Pump & Dump? Am I right?


Ya, wasn't trying to be cryptic...just not my style to write like that.


----------



## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> He did both. What he expected from the first? I really don't know. You'd think he'd know the waters had been fouled and wouldn't heal Sayid. Though I still think Jacob is a good guy it's hard not to imagine that, no matter what happens, Jacob is a step ahead the whole time. And though we've seen him let Nadia die when he could have saved her (no doubt her death was part of his plan), allowing Sayid to lose his soul would be on another level of cold-heartedness altogether. Then again, it was Sayid who made the final choice.


I thought about this today. Jacob obviously has the ability to see not only what has happened, but what will happen. He was waiting for Locke to fall, and grabbed Sayid just as Nadia stepped out (how skilled was that assassin though? how do you PLAN a hit like that? LOL). If his plan was to bring Sayid to the island to serve a purpose, it seems like it backfired, but that doesn't seem likely. Everything Sayid is right now is because of Jacob's direct involvement--from him being back on the island to Hurley bringing him to the temple to his resurrection.

I'm definitely gonna have to watch this season again marathon-style when they release it because there are so many layers and so much stuff that requires a tight memory, which I seem to be losing daily. I have so many distractions right now it's hard to pick up EVERYTHINg that goes on, while remembering everything that's already happened. That's why I love message boards the following day because I realize how much of the deeper stuff I missed.

I'm gonna be sad when this show ends--I truly don't think anything else will ever be as deep, layered, twisty, confusing, frustrating, and incredible as this show. As bad as some storylines were (Hydra Island, Nikki and Paulo, Sayid and Shannon, the entire time-traveling fiasco), they made up for it with infinitely better stories, well-realized characters ( mostly) and what I think is one of the best ensemble casts ever on TV.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I wonder if there's any significance to Sayid killing Dogen and Lennon in the "magic" water?


Yeah, if you've gotta get killed in the Lost universe, you couldn't pick a much better place than in the Temple's jacuzzi. I imagine those 2 guys will be back. Maybe Not-Locke even told Sayid to kill Dogen in the water.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

But, the water isn't magic anymore. It failed to restore Sayid, at least according to Miles, who knows about dead people. Those boys are dead, unless they come back as zombies.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

sonnik said:


> I'm wondering if we don't know Smokey's name (ala Jacob) for a reason. What if we find out his name is Aaron?


Or maybe his name is Cain.


----------



## Numb And Number2 (Jan 13, 2009)

brermike said:


> Catch a Falling Star-


Falling Star = Sundown.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> But, the water isn't magic anymore....


Do we know that for sure? Will it never be magic again? The writers could've killed those two off anywhere and any way. Yet they chose to do it in the Temple hot tub. One has to think there is a reason for that...


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

aindik said:


> Another question. When Jacob told Hurley to bring Sayid to the temple, what did Jacob want to happen?





getreal said:


> You're misremembering things. Jacob only told Hurley to bring Jack to the lighthouse. And he stopped Hurley from trying to warn the others about the big baddie heading to the Temple, as it was already too late.





Fool Me Twice said:


> He did both. What he expected from the first? I really don't know. You'd think he'd know the waters had been fouled and wouldn't heal Sayid. Though I still think Jacob is a good guy it's hard not to imagine that, no matter what happens, Jacob is a step ahead the whole time. And though we've seen him let Nadia die when he could have saved her (no doubt her death was part of his plan), allowing Sayid to lose his soul would be on another level of cold-heartedness altogether. Then again, it was Sayid who made the final choice.





Turtleboy said:


> Sayid was brought to Temple and then dunked in a Mikvah. Is he Jewish now?


Yeah -- I forgot that when Jack was tending to Sayid and his bullet wound to the gut, that it was Hurley who insisted on taking him to the Temple because Jacob said that he still needed Sayid. It seems that if the Temple Jacuzzi wasn't directly responsible for resurrecting Sayid, it at least repaired the bullet hole in his shirt. Actually, maybe it's the island that repairs bullet holes in clothing, as many cast members have recovered from gunshots without having a wardrobe of bullet-riddled outfits. I know, they can always change their shirt, but I don't think they do. 



danterner said:


> Dogen said, to Sayid, "Inside every man is a scale. On one side good, one the other side evil. Your scale tipped the wrong way." The point I was making above is that Dogen didn't say whether Sayid's scale had tipped toward good or toward evil. The dialog seemed purposefully vague. Later he did describe flocke as "evil incarnate," though - you're right.


When a guy says that one side of a scale is good and the other is evil, and that your scale tipped the WRONG way, how is that "purposefully vague"?! Doesn't that imply to you that the EVIL way is the WRONG way?


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

The scene when smokey came into the temple and starting wreaking havoc was very reminiscent of the Passover night scene from The Ten Commandments....when the Angel of Death (which appeared as smoke or a mist) came through the streets to kill the firstborn. Evil Incarnate indeed.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

getreal said:


> Yeah -- I forgot that when Jack was tending to Sayid and his bullet wound to the gut, that it was Hurley who insisted on taking him to the Temple because Jacob said that he still needed Sayid. It seems that if the Temple Jacuzzi wasn't directly responsible for resurrecting Sayid, it at least repaired the bullet hole in his shirt. Actually, maybe it's the island that repairs bullet holes in clothing, as many cast members have recovered from gunshots without having a wardrobe of bullet-riddled outfits. I know, they can always change their shirt, but I don't think they do.


I kept hoping for a good view of ex-Locke's shirt to see if it had a hole in it. I couldn't tell.


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> I kept hoping for a good view of ex-Locke's shirt to see if it had a hole in it. I couldn't tell.


There was definatly a hole in it after getting stabbed. I could see his skin through it.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I will be so sad (and probably confused) when this show is over.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

rondotcom said:


> By the way, Naveen Andrews, IMHO, outcreeped Michael Emerson last night in the creepy evil smile department


Yes! I actually had some hairs stand on end. I always though Emerson was a great bad guy and a great actor but he never really creeped me like he did some. That one smile and look at Ben from Sayid was chilling.



gchance said:


> Very, but no amount of hotness is going to make me see that movie they advertised that she's in with "Look at my hair, I'm the new James Dean" Patteson. GEEEEEZ.
> Greg


ITA! Hate that guy.



DreadPirateRob said:


> Did anyone watch that scene and think, sure, the mobster guy is going to keep his word and forgive the debt and Sayid's family? C'mon. As soon as Sayid left, Keamy would have rounded up more lackeys and gone after him. We knew he was full of it, and so did Sayid. He really had no choice but to shoot him.


Of course he wouldn't have. Sayid really didn't have a choice but to kill them all. There was no other way out of that situation with his family in tact.



getreal said:


> At this point, Kate has been touched by a number of people.


 I'm sorry but this made me spit. Indeed she has.



aindik said:


> SmokeyLocke presented the cave to Sawyer as a place Jacob hung out. Are we assuming now that SmokeyLocke is lying about that? If so, what do we think as to the veracity of the stuff he told Sawyer in there. How much of that stuff is true?


I think Flocke is lying about pretty much everything. I don't think he intends to keep his word to any of them. I think he intends to have them help and in the end he'll kill "every living thing" on the island as planned, including any who have helped him. Evil can never be trusted.



MonsterJoe said:


> You guys should settle on a name for the bad guy...everyone seems to have their own clever iteration going. How about Locke?





Fool Me Twice said:


> MIB seems to be the most popular name for the bad guy in LOST fandom.


MIB or Flocke works for me.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

T-Wolves said:


> Yeah, if you've gotta get killed in the Lost universe, you couldn't pick a much better place than in the Temple's jacuzzi. I imagine those 2 guys will be back. Maybe Not-Locke even told Sayid to kill Dogen in the water.


Or maybe MIB told Sayid to kill him, but Sayid purposely killed him in the water because he's pulling one over on MIB? Sayid's death grin and zombie walk exit would work against this theory, though. He seemed pretty resigned to the fact that he was killer and would never be anything else.


----------



## Cboath (Jun 22, 2004)

stevieleej said:


> Claire is hot?


Yes



Alfer said:


> Maybe some here just like the skeevy white trash types?


My favorite girl next door was Kendra.


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jradford said:


> Or maybe MIB told Sayid to kill him, but Sayid purposely killed him in the water because he's pulling one over on MIB? Sayid's death grin and zombie walk exit would work against this theory, though. He seemed pretty resigned to the fact that he was killer and would never be anything else.


I got that feeling. That he was trying to do the killing where the guy would have a chance. He didn't shoot or stab Dogan, but drowned him as they did to him.


----------



## thenightfly42 (Mar 5, 2002)

Not important, but I was surprised that Miles said that Sayid had been dead for two hours. It seemed like 5 minutes when I watched that episode. And they just left his body sitting there for two hours? I would have thought they would have at least covered him up...


T-Wolves said:


> Do we know that for sure? Will it never be magic again? The writers could've killed those two off anywhere and any way. Yet they chose to do it in the Temple hot tub. One has to think there is a reason for that...


I think it is just for the parallel. Dogen killed Sayid there, so Sayid returned the favor.


----------



## T-Wolves (Aug 22, 2000)

I suppose if the writers were to use the Temple jacuzzi as a device to keep Dogen and Lennon around, there'd have to be a good explanation as to why the water was "magic" again.

Maybe the way they'd explain it would be to tell us that Jacob somehow touched or messed with the water again? At the beginning of "Lighthouse," perhaps?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Sayid was brought to Temple and then dunked in a Mikvah. Is he Jewish now?


At least one step is missing....


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Was Lapidus' name on the wall in the cave? If so did he have one of The Numbers next to it?

Ilana mentioned that he was a candidate last season. I believe that was the first time we had heard anything about candidates.

Also Lapidus was suppose to be the original pilot for Oceanic 815 but was sick or something and the other pilot took his place. (I wonder if this is why the smoke monster killed the pilot in the first episode? Did he realize the wrong person came to the island? Or perhaps he killed him thinking he was Lapidus?)

Then when Lapidus saw the sunken plane on the news he knew it was being faked because his name was still on the flight manifest. Did they ever point out for Lapidus that the person who faked the plane crash is the same person that hired him to find the island?

I wonder if we'll get a flashback for Lapidus that shows Jacob touching him?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

TiVotion said:


> You know, someone mentioned that maybe Claire doesn't see Flocke as Locke. She was just referring to him as "my friend", and in fact said to Jin when Jin said (at Claire's camp) "John?", something like "No, not John. This is my friend". If she's not seeing Flocke as Locke and she sees him as someone else, it would make perfect sense that she sees him as Christian Shepard. After all, Christian was hanging with her before she disappeared. But where does this Christian Ghost fit into all of this?


I think the simplest explanation is that everyone sees him as Locke. We have seen several characters recognize him as Locke, so there's no real reason to think otherwise. Perhaps she can see behind the mask somehow, or perhaps there is a point in which smokey visited her as Locke and told her who he really is. At any rate, if she saw him as Christian, she would have said, "No, not John. This is my Dad."



Queue said:


> Was Lapidus' name on the wall in the cave? If so did he have one of The Numbers next to it?
> 
> Ilana mentioned that he was a candidate last season. I believe that was the first time we had heard anything about candidates.
> 
> ...


Ilana said Lapidus may be a candidate, not that he was one. I'm going to bet all of the important candidates that Jacob touched were shown in that one episode. I don't see us getting another episode like that.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Random crackpot theory on Sawyer's LA X occupation: I don't think he is still going to be a con man, or a criminal of any kind, and have been trying to figure out why he would have helped Kate escape in the airport. I think he recognized who she was and is a bounty hunter. Maybe even why he was in Australia. Might have been tracking her, or someone else.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jking said:


> Random crackpot theory on Sawyer's LA X occupation: I don't think he is still going to be a con man, or a criminal of any kind, and have been trying to figure out why he would have helped Kate escape in the airport. I think he recognized who she was and is a bounty hunter. Maybe even why he was in Australia. Might have been tracking her, or someone else.


I was thinking the same thing, that his line about people taking advantage of Hurley was just a guy telling another guy to be careful. When you think about it, he really SHOULDN'T be one. That was all predicated on Anthony Cooper, who apparently is a nice enough guy to still be invited to Locke's wedding.

Greg


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking of the candidates as being safe in that neither side can kill them. Like the boy (what ever happened to him?) told Locke he couldn't kill Sawyer. I don't know if that continues after they are recruited by one side or the other. Has Hurley officially joined Jacob's camp? So if that was true, who does that leave that isn't protected? Probably Lapidus since no one's seen his name anywhere. Also since Kwon is only there once, is one of them not a candidate? Is that why Sun didn't transport with the others when the plane crashed? It's anybody's guess what Ilana is. I would think these people will not live much longer.

Sun is also the only one who hasn't crossed paths with anyone else in the sideways timeline either. Although Sayid crossed Jack's path very briefly--he hasn't talked to any of the others, has he? 

I thought the Others at the temple were the true believers. They sure deserted quick enough when they were threatened.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Although Sayid crossed Jack's path very briefly--he hasn't talked to any of the others, has he?


He talked to Jin at the very end of his flash sideways. "Who are you?"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I thought the Others at the temple were the true believers. They sure deserted quick enough when they were threatened.


I think they were just in the Temple for safety from the smoke monster. If Sayid's message is to be believed, than there was no longer a safety reason for remaining in the Temple if they left before sundown.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> ...Also since Kwon is only there once, is one of them not a candidate? Is that why Sun didn't transport with the others when the plane crashed? It's anybody's guess what Ilana is. I would think these people will not live much longer.
> 
> Sun is also the only one who hasn't crossed paths with anyone else in the sideways timeline either. Although Sayid crossed Jack's path very briefly--he hasn't talked to any of the others, has he?


I've been rewatching the series and am in the middle of the season 4 finale. The freighter just blew up, right after Christian appeared and told Michael he was done... and also right after the helicopter had safely left carrying Hurley, Jack, Sun and others. If that version of Christian was Jacob (or speaking for Jacob) and if Michael's whole purpose for being there on the boat was to keep the bomb frozen long enough to allow the candidates to escape the boat safely, it could mean that Sun is the Kwon who is the candidate and not Jin.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think they were just in the Temple for safety from the smoke monster. If Sayid's message is to be believed, than there was no longer a safety reason for remaining in the Temple if they left before sundown.


But they also switched sides pretty quickly too. They left with Flocke at the end of the episode, as if they are now his followers.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jking said:


> Random crackpot theory on Sawyer's LA X occupation: I don't think he is still going to be a con man, or a criminal of any kind, and have been trying to figure out why he would have helped Kate escape in the airport. I think he recognized who she was and is a bounty hunter. Maybe even why he was in Australia. Might have been tracking her, or someone else.


Good observation.



gchance said:


> I was thinking the same thing, that his line about people taking advantage of Hurley was just a guy telling another guy to be careful. When you think about it, he really SHOULDN'T be one. That was all predicated on Anthony Cooper, who apparently is a nice enough guy to still be invited to Locke's wedding.
> 
> Greg


You beat me to the punch. I think this lends further credence to what I proposed last week by expanding on DTenners (hope I got that right) theory that what makes the island so special is that it has the ability to give the inhabitants what they most want; namely, that the sideways timeline is actually a flashforward of what the events unraveling on the island this season will lead to. Everyone we've seen so far has arguably gotten what they've wanted (I believe that Kate's story is open for interpretation as of now). If it turns out that Sawyer never suffered that tragedy as a child because Locke's dad was not a con man, this will only lend further support to that theory. Does anyone remember Ben's first flashback episode well enough to know if we've seen anything that suggests that he'd be happy to be a history teacher? Somebody else said it in another thread, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Hurley is married to Libby (and therefore could never give Desmond her dead husband's boat).


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I haven't read all the pages, but am tossing this out -

Dogan and Sayid and the torture that happened. 

I remember when Rousseu tortured Sayid in almost the same exact way in season one. She tested Sayid for the "sickness" the same way as Dogen did. How did Danielle learn how to test for that? Did she get tested and then escape as Claire did? For such a populated island it seems implausible that anyone hides or escapes, good or bad.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

A coworker here Ryan Smith made an interesting observation the other day. Even if we all assumed it before, we now have had it clearly stated that smokey will come to someone in the form of a dead person.

His observation was that the Man From Tallahassee just appeared out of the metaphorical magic box, and that he'd even said similar things to what fake Locke said on the beach after 316 (remembering how he died, and that then he was here). Was that smokey? How would that work to smokey's advantage?

(as I think about it now, I do remember Locke actually carrying that man (his father)'s corpse and delivering it to Ben. If that was smokey, was he staying in the form of a lifeless corpse that whole time?)


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

betts4 said:


> I haven't read all the pages, but am tossing this out -
> 
> Dogan and Sayid and the torture that happened.
> 
> I remember when Rousseu tortured Sayid in almost the same exact way in season one. She tested Sayid for the "sickness" the same way as Dogen did. How did Danielle learn how to test for that? Did she get tested and then escape as Claire did? For such a populated island it seems implausible that anyone hides or escapes, good or bad.


I asked this a few threads ago.

Postulated that Rousseau was caught and tested by the Temple others, and either escaped or since she was "claimed" they couldn't kill her so let her go.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

gchance said:


> I was thinking the same thing, that his line about people taking advantage of Hurley was just a guy telling another guy to be careful. When you think about it, he really SHOULDN'T be one. That was all predicated on Anthony Cooper, who apparently is a nice enough guy to still be invited to Locke's wedding.
> 
> Greg


That, and the fact that Jacob basically egged him on to finish writing the letter to Anthony Cooper, giving him the pen outside the church, and thus setting him on a path of obsession that his uncle (or whoever that was) seemed to have steered him away from momentarily. Of course, that's assuming that all of the Jacob encounters that we saw in the season 5 finale didn't happen in the alternate timeline. Which seems likely, but you never know.


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Queue said:


> Was Lapidus' name on the wall in the cave? If so did he have one of The Numbers next to it?
> 
> Ilana mentioned that he was a candidate last season. I believe that was the first time we had heard anything about candidates.


According to this page, his name was not on the wall or at the lighthouse.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jking said:


> I've been rewatching the series and am in the middle of the season 4 finale. The freighter just blew up, right after Christian appeared and told Michael he was done... and also right after the helicopter had safely left carrying Hurley, Jack, Sun and others. If that version of Christian was Jacob (or speaking for Jacob) and if Michael's whole purpose for being there on the boat was to keep the bomb frozen long enough to allow the candidates to escape the boat safely, it could mean that Sun is the Kwon who is the candidate and not Jin.


Or if Christian was Smokey, he could have been safeguarding the candidates so they could be the oceanic 6 and bring Locke's body back for him 3 years later. Sun was involved in that but didn't seem to be too vital to it.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> His observation was that the Man From Tallahassee just appeared out of the metaphorical magic box, and that he'd even said similar things to what fake Locke said on the beach after 316 (remembering how he died, and that then he was here). Was that smokey? How would that work to smokey's advantage?


"I died, and then I was here" sounds more like what happened to Sayid than anyone else.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> His observation was that the Man From Tallahassee just appeared out of the metaphorical magic box, and that he'd even said similar things to what fake Locke said on the beach after 316 (remembering how he died, and that then he was here).


That reminds me of Ben's exasperation when Locke couldn't grasp the concept that the Magic Box was just a metaphor...

I sometimes wonder if in that conversation Ben represented Lindelof & Cuse, and Locke represented, well, us?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Or if Christian was Smokey, he could have been safeguarding the candidates so they could be the oceanic 6 and bring Locke's body back for him 3 years later. Sun was involved in that but didn't seem to be too vital to it.


Yeah. Either way, if the point was to protect the candidates, it doesn't seem that anyone was too concerned with what might happen to Jin.


----------



## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> A coworker here Ryan Smith made an interesting observation the other day. Even if we all assumed it before, we now have had it clearly stated that smokey will come to someone in the form of a dead person.
> 
> His observation was that the Man From Tallahassee just appeared out of the metaphorical magic box, and that he'd even said similar things to what fake Locke said on the beach after 316 (remembering how he died, and that then he was here). Was that smokey? How would that work to smokey's advantage?
> 
> (as I think about it now, I do remember Locke actually carrying that man (his father)'s corpse and delivering it to Ben. If that was smokey, was he staying in the form of a lifeless corpse that whole time?)


But doesn't Smokey only take the form of dead people whose body is physically on the island? Or did I just make that up?


----------



## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Queue said:


> At Jacob's cabin there was a circle of ash around it. But I'm not sure why. I don't think it was to keep smokey out. Smokey couldn't kill Jacob directly. Otherwise he would have done it much sooner and not set up this big plan that's going on now. Jacob was living in the statue without ash around it and Lock walked right in it.
> 
> The people that need the ash circle are the regular humans. So I'm wondering who was living in the cabin that was referred to as "Jacob's cabin".
> 
> Maybe what Locke heard when he was in the cabin with Ben was something other than Jacob or smokey.


Or was the ash supposed to keep Smokey IN the cabin...


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

SocratesJohnson said:


> But doesn't Smokey only take the form of dead people whose body is physically on the island? Or did I just make that up?


Fact is, we don't know what his limits are.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jking said:


> Fact is, we don't know what his limits are.


I thought that the fact is that this friction will only be worn by persistence..


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> Ya, wasn't trying to be cryptic...just not my style to write like that.


Sorry, MJ-just morbidly curious! 

And as a straight woman, I have to say, Evangeline Lilly is a knockout, makeup or no makeup. Just gorgeous! :up:


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Regina said:


> Sorry, MJ-just morbidly curious!
> 
> And as a straight woman, I have to say, Evangeline Lilly is a knockout, makeup or no makeup. Just gorgeous! :up:


As a straight man, I agree with you. 

Chalk me up as another one that thought "Sundown" was going to be about Sun. 

This was such a great episode, probably one of my favorites. It was like a punch in the face, but I'm just along for the ride. I have no burning questions that I'm waiting for answers to.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> I thought that the fact is that this friction will only be worn by persistence..


Of course you're right. I guess my circuits got shorted by external interference for a second. That happens sometimes. Signals get crossed...


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

The more I ponder on where this is going, the more convoluted it seems to get. So I have a theory. Wherever this grand storyline arc is taking us, its somewhere we already know. The Island, the rules of the game Jacob and Flocke are playing, we've seen them somewhere before, be it in a religious legend, fairy tale, mythology. Maybe its Cain and Able, maybe Beowulf and Grendel, maybe Gandalf and the Balrog, but I think we're going to know it in the last episode.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> The more I ponder on where this is going, the more convoluted it seems to get. So I have a theory. Wherever this grand storyline arc is taking us, its somewhere we already know. The Island, the rules of the game Jacob and Flocke are playing, we've seen them somewhere before, be it in a religious legend, fairy tale, mythology. Maybe its Cain and Able, maybe Beowulf and Grendel, maybe Gandalf and the Balrog, but I think we're going to know it in the last episode.


Based on this last episdoe (and the ton of daddy issues throughout the series) I'm thinking Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

This pic is kind of funny and made me think of LOST, so I thought I'd post it here:


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I have a new theory. I think Jacob is trying to reset time (or orchestrate an elaborate course correction). Perhaps he knows somehow the universe is off track, or skipping like a record. It speaks to his comment last season about everything else being progress, meaning progress towards his ultimate goal. And it explains how he can still be the "good guy" and not be concerned when people like Nadia are sacrificed toward the reaching of that goal. He knows if he is successful, it won't matter, because she (and others) will survive when the universe is fixed.

Smokey on the other hand has given up, and doesn't believe it can be done.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

jking said:


> I have a new theory. I think Jacob is trying to reset time (or orchestrate an elaborate course correction). Perhaps he knows somehow the universe is off track, or skipping like a record. It speaks to his comment last season about everything else being progress, meaning progress towards his ultimate goal. And it explains how he can still be the "good guy" and not be concerned when people like Nadia are sacrificed toward the reaching of that goal. He knows if he is successful, it won't matter, because she (and others) will survive when the universe is fixed.
> 
> Smokey on the other hand has given up, and doesn't believe it can be done.


This is almost (or maybe not even almost) the exact theory I was discussing with a friend the other day. I will expound and repeat much of what you said just to see if we're actually thinking the same thing:

Basically, Jacob and MIB's timeline has been off-track for however long Jacob and MIB have been on the island, (many many years.) Jacob and MIB have the same motive: Getting THEIR timeline back on track. Jacob or MIB or Both likely have skipped through time at some point in their life (much like Desmond's conscience) and have seen that eventually things DO get back on track. Jacob is able to accept this, (maybe he's the only one that "saw" the future (much like Desmond.)) It is their fate. Everything that happens is "progress" because he knows and accepts that whatever happens, happens and will lead them to their fate. MIB has either lost faith or never believed. He is frustrated, is tired of waiting, and sees no progress and has decided (or decided a long time ago,) to take things into his own hands. Thus, they have become "enemies" of a sort.

It's just the beginning of a theory that hasn't been fully fleshed out, but I think it could end up making some sense. I've already put some holes in it: (MIB tells Jacob on the beach: "I wish I could kill you." Jacob knows he can't, though, because Jacob knows that in the future he has survived or something like that. But then Jacob dies because of some loophole. I haven't been able to figure out how to fit a loophole into the theory.)


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

But if Jacob knows that, then he understands that everything MiB does is also progress. So why would he care?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jradford said:


> I've already put some holes in it: (MIB tells Jacob on the beach: "I wish I could kill you." Jacob knows he can't, though, because Jacob knows that in the future he has survived or something like that. But then Jacob dies because of some loophole. I haven't been able to figure out how to fit a loophole into the theory.)


How's this? Because there is no loophole. Jacob is simply content letting MIB think that there was.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I still firmly believe that Jacob's death was part of his plan, and that MiB is in for a rude shock when that part of it comes to fruition (however that plays out). I think Jacob is several steps ahead of MiB, and that MiB is playing right into Jacob's hands.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I just hope evil wins at the end. That would be awesome.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Could MIB and Jacob be the same person from two different timelines, fighting it out to see who's timeline will win? Like if the Oceanic 6 from the Island timeline and the Oceanic 6 from the LA X timeline struggled to see who's reality wins out in the end.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I just hope evil wins at the end. That would be awesome.


Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> The more I ponder on where this is going, the more convoluted it seems to get. So I have a theory. *Wherever this grand storyline arc is taking us, its somewhere we already know. * The Island, the rules of the game Jacob and Flocke are playing, we've seen them somewhere before, be it in a religious legend, fairy tale, mythology. Maybe its Cain and Able, maybe Beowulf and Grendel, maybe Gandalf and the Balrog, but I think we're going to know it in the last episode.


I don't know if you (we) are right, but I too have been trying to see if this is a possibility. I've been mentally flicking thru every mythological story I can think of, trying to see which one this is. At one point I had MiB as Pandora's Box, but I couldn't make anything else fit. 

I think it would make for an interesting conclusion if we find out this *is* something we've "known" all along.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Philosofy said:


> The more I ponder on where this is going, the more convoluted it seems to get. So I have a theory. Wherever this grand storyline arc is taking us, its somewhere we already know. The Island, the rules of the game Jacob and Flocke are playing, we've seen them somewhere before, be it in a religious legend, fairy tale, mythology. Maybe its Cain and Able, maybe Beowulf and Grendel, maybe Gandalf and the Balrog, but I think we're going to know it in the last episode.


Carton Cuse and and Damon Lindelof tapped into our collective unconscious, man.

Carl Jung-style.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I love reading all of these corralerries (or however you spell it, can't install the spellchecker here at work) to other mythical or biblical events you all are spouting!! Perhaps it is NOTHING like any of them...and it's creating it's own mythology. Cuse and Lindelhof are just brainwashing us


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


This. :up:

Greg


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

gchance said:


> This. :up:
> 
> Greg


I clicked this thread, saw only this post, and couldn't remember if I clicked on the Lost thread or the Survivor: Heroes vs Villains thread.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I don't know if you (we) are right, but I too have been trying to see if this is a possibility. I've been mentally flicking thru every mythological story I can think of, trying to see which one this is. At one point I had MiB as Pandora's Box, but I couldn't make anything else fit. :rolleyes


I remember back during the first season a bunch of us were speculating about possible tie-ins to Pandora's box. At that point, the hatch hadn't been opened and speculation about what could be inside was rife. We drew the parallel between the hatch and Pandora's box. This seemed to gain some credence when, in the season finale (Exodus, Part 2), there was the following dialog exchange between Hurley and Locke:

*Hurley:* "So, dude. What do you think is inside of that hatch thing?"

(Locke at first says he hopes there are stacks of TV dinners from the 50s inside, as well as TVs, cable, cell phones, clean socks, soap, and Twinkies. Kind of ironic, in hindsight. Reasonably close to what they found).

*Hurley:* "Really? What do you think is inside?"

*Locke:* "Hope. I think hope is inside."

This seemed to be an obvious allusion to Pandora's Box (where, once the box was opened, all the troubles and problems of the world flew out. The only thing remaining in the box was hope).


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

SocratesJohnson said:


> But doesn't Smokey only take the form of dead people whose body is physically on the island? Or did I just make that up?


Do you think Walt's manifestations (seen by Shannon, Sayid & Locke) were due to Smokey or just Walt practicing astral projections? They really set up some interesting stuff with Walt's character, and then tossed it in the trash. Shame. 

What about Ben's mother? She had died off-island during childbirth. Ben's first victim. Yet she showed up when Ben was a child. It would be interesting if Richard turned out to be Ben's actual father. Richard has made off-island jaunts before. Maybe one of them was for pleasure and not just business ...


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

getreal said:


> Do you think Walt's manifestations (seen by Shannon, Sayid & Locke) were due to Smokey or just Walt practicing astral projections? They really set up some interesting stuff with Walt's character, and then tossed it in the trash. Shame.
> 
> What about Ben's mother? She had died off-island during childbirth. Ben's first victim. Yet she showed up when Ben was a child. It would be interesting if Richard turned out to be Ben's actual father. Richard has made off-island jaunts before. Maybe one of them was for pleasure and not just business ...


Here's a bit of non-relevant trivia I learned when Michael Emerson (Ben) was on Jimmy Kimmel's show. The actress who plays his mom is his real life wife.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

balboa dave said:


> Here's a bit of non-relevant trivia I learned when Michael Emerson (Ben) was on Jimmy Kimmel's show. The actress who plays his mom is his real life wife.


She also has a supporting role in True Blood.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

One of the Official LOST Podcasts have some funny stuff with Emerson.


> *The Official LOST Video Podcast: January 27th, 2010*
> 
> Intrepid reporter Bob Stencil interviews the cast & creators for the latest scoop on the final season of LOST.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I noticed that the picture Sayid had of Nadia looked like she was a schoolgirl. I thought in the other timeline he met her when he was supposed to torture her and let her go. Now she's a family friend at a young age? Maybe he was never in the Gulf War in this timeline. Maybe there never was a Gulf War.  He did say he did a lot of bad things, though.


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

The only reason I remember this is because I watched the first Sayid flashback episode last night...They were childhood friends in the original timeline, too.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

mrdazzo7 said:


> If his plan was to bring Sayid to the island to serve a purpose, it seems like it backfired, but that doesn't seem likely. Everything Sayid is right now is because of Jacob's direct involvement--from him being back on the island to Hurley bringing him to the temple to his resurrection.


Despite last episode's events, I'm still not entirely uncertain that Sayid isn't Jacob's Ben. Perhaps Sayid's dying was not what Jacob wanted, but it could also be that his living is exactly what he did.

As far as the "we can't show you any scenes" teasers were concerned, I can't really think of any scenes from the episode that wouldn't have been uninteresting, irrelevant, or too spoilerish to show. There were a lot of scenes where it was questionable which way things were going to go, and who was telling the truth about what. So even though no major arc information was revealed, I can see why they wouldn't want to spoil the episode itself by showing scenes that would have given an indication one way or another.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's another question: what brought Sayid back to life? Flocke couldn't penetrate the temple, so he had nothing to do with it. Even if Sayid was infected beforehand, that infection wouldn't bring him back to life, since Rousseau's people didn't come back from being shot. There must be a power higher than Flocke and Jacob doing things.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> There must be a power higher than Flocke and Jacob doing things.


Or at least _other _than them...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Here's another question: what brought Sayid back to life? Flocke couldn't penetrate the temple, so he had nothing to do with it. Even if Sayid was infected beforehand, that infection wouldn't bring him back to life, since Rousseau's people didn't come back from being shot. There must be a power higher than Flocke and Jacob doing things.


Maybe it's actually "the island"? We've listened to lots of Locke (and others I think) saying that the island wants this or that, and I think recently we've been thinking that Locke was misunderstanding what was really going on - and that it was actually some combination of Jacob and smokey.. But maybe Jacob and smokey are even able to play this game because of the 'board' - the island - which itself is a player (or dungeon master, or something)? Maybe like a referee? Or maybe the island is trapped too, being used by Jacob and smokey.

I look forward to tomorrow night.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

Perhaps Jacob did bring Sayid back to life and no one knows it yet. Maybe it's just part of his long con of Smokey.


----------



## kemajor (Jan 2, 2003)

hapdrastic said:


> Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


Not sure if "good" is dumb but "good" is constantly imposing artificial limitations on how it is willing play the game. Which is of course what make themselves and many others consider them the "good" side. I'd say all things being equal evil would almost always win.

- K


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

kemajor said:


> Not sure if "good" is dumb but "good" is constantly imposing artificial limitations on how it is willing play the game. Which is of course what make themselves and many others consider them the "good" side. I'd say all things being equal evil would almost always win.
> 
> - K


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Ohhhhhh!!!

I just had an awesome thought..

Speaking of long cons.. What if Jacob foresaw everything happening, and made his own moves as part of a longer con to take down smokey, and that long con involved coming to Ben at some point in his life and telling him "Someday.. someone you know who has died will ask you to kill me. When they do, I'll tell you you have a choice. Act all wounded and hurt, act as if you've never talked to me at all, and kill me (it'll be ok). Whatever happens, he MUST think he manipulated you - show regret, show remorse. Trust me, it's the best possible outcome."

It'd certainly put Ben back in the camp of "good guys".


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Ohhhhhh!!!It'd certainly put Ben back in the camp of "good guys".


Yeah, but he still killed Locke. Still a cool idea, but I'd need more to consider him a good guy at this point.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> It'd certainly put Ben back in the camp of "good guys".


When was Ben ever in the camp of the "Good Guys"?


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I think the island is a test case for the whole world. Whoever wins on the island, gets to impose his will on the earth. If smokey wins, he can rid the earth of every living thing. Remember in season two, the numbers were constants in some equation that predicted the end of the world. These constants are in fact people, in the epic struggle.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> When was Ben ever in the camp of the "Good Guys"?


Someone on the dock asked Ben "Who are you?", to which Ben replied "We're the good guys".


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Someone on the dock asked Ben "Who are you?", to which Ben replied "We're the good guys".


That's what he said.

His actions leave that very open to interpretation.

Not to mention the fact that Ben is a big, fat, liar.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Philosofy said:


> Here's another question: what brought Sayid back to life? Flocke couldn't penetrate the temple, so he had nothing to do with it.


Do we know that Flocke couldn't penetrate the temple or that he had nothing to do with it? We were told he couldn't cross the ash, but then he did. Then Sayid came back and said he was coming in and everyone believed him and left. Only after that he killed Dogen, and Lennon said that Dogen had been keeping him out, but we don't know if that was true. Also, they seemed surprised that the water turned cloudy after Jacob died, so maybe Flocke contaminated the water in some way they didn't expect.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I have LOST on the brain today as I anxiously await tonight's episode. Like everyone, I'm trying to extrapolate answers and an ending from what we know thus far. People have speculated that the flash-sideways may be an epilogue that we are watching play out slowly over the course of the season rather than seeing it bunched up at the end in less-dramatic fashion. In other words, something will yet happen on the island that will cause the events of the sideways world to occur. I've also heard people speculate the inverse - that the flash sideways is a prologue: that we are seeing a world where 815 didn't crash, but that events in that world will still conspire to bring about the events of the island world (I suppose this would take the characters all convening and traveling back in time [they've done it before] to make sure that alt Oceanic 815 _does_ crash).

I wonder if both are correct - if it could be both epilogue and prologue: each reality triggers the other, and the show's resolution will leave us guessing, chicken-and-egg style, which reality came first. Looking at the show from a distance, it would look like a big mobius strip. Island reality on one side, alt reality on the other, but how many surfaces are there? One or two?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think the flash-sideways are exactly what they appear to be...an alternate world caused by the explosion at the end of last season (Lost producers' not knowing what "alternate world" means notwithstanding). The trick is the relationship between the two alternate realities.

Last season, I suggested that when what happened doesn't happen, the universe breaks. At the time, I thought it was happening then (when Little Ben got shot), but clearly I was wrong. But I think it DID happen at the end of last season. Changing history (by setting off the bomb) broke the universe. This season will ultimately be about the consequences of that, and how to fix it.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Simple questions I've just been too tired to pick up on:

1) Why did Claire not say "Umm, Jin, you speak english??"? Or did she? Did he really know enough english when she last saw him that she'd be fine with him speaking fluently? (yeah, smokey could tell her about him being in Dharma times I guess.. but.. really?). Or, maybe she just figures it's been 3 years for her, 3 years for him, he learned english from people. Ok, that's not really a question I guess.

2) Waay back in the Jack flashbacks of earlier seasons, Jack was preoccupied with finding out who was the man that his wife was with now (and he thought it was his dad at one point). Did we ever find out who it was? I kind of remember seeing a vague man across the street and maybe thinking the point was that we didn't need to know - he was just someone else - but I can't quite remember.

6 hours 10 minutes left!


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

I think probably one of the biggest clues we have seen thus far that the flash sideways are not the result of the bomb is that Ben is off island in the other reality. If there was a split from that point forward, if the bomb sank the island or whatever, Ben was still on the island at that point. He had not escaped with everyone else on the sub. Perhaps the bomb blast could have caused a reset that went back to earlier than 1977 (wouldn't be unheard of on this show) ... but as of this moment I'm sticking with the theory that the bomb blast is what always happened, and what always caused the incident to take place.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Simple questions I've just been too tired to pick up on:
> 
> 2) Waay back in the Jack flashbacks of earlier seasons, Jack was preoccupied with finding out who was the man that his wife was with now (and he thought it was his dad at one point). Did we ever find out who it was? I kind of remember seeing a vague man across the street and maybe thinking the point was that we didn't need to know - he was just someone else - but I can't quite remember.
> 
> 6 hours 10 minutes left!


Yeah, we saw the guy after she came to bail Jack out when he went to jail for attacking his Dad at the AA meeting. But he was just some random guy. No one important.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Simple questions I've just been too tired to pick up on:
> 
> 1) Why did Claire not say "Umm, Jin, you speak english??"? Or did she? Did he really know enough english when she last saw him that she'd be fine with him speaking fluently? (yeah, smokey could tell her about him being in Dharma times I guess.. but.. really?). Or, maybe she just figures it's been 3 years for her, 3 years for him, he learned english from people. Ok, that's not really a question I guess.
> 
> 6 hours 10 minutes left!


Simple answer for a simple question: Claire is crazy.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

jking said:


> Yeah, we saw the guy after she came to bail Jack out when he went to jail for attacking his Dad at the AA meeting. But he was just some random guy. No one important.


Later on that episode, Juliet had Jack's file (with a section on his ex-wife) and told Jack that she would tell him anything that he wanted to know about her. All he asks is "is she happy?" She is. I imagine that this illustrates Jack eventually letting go. (note: I just finished rewatching season 3, so this episode is fresh on my mind)


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

mmilton80 said:


> Later on that episode, Juliet had Jack's file (with a section on his ex-wife) and told Jack that she would tell him anything that he wanted to know about her. All he asks is "is she happy?" She is. I imagine that this illustrates Jack eventually letting go. (note: I just finished rewatching season 3, so this episode is fresh on my mind)


Yeah, was fairly fresh in my mind as well. Have been rewatching and breezed through season 3 a couple of weeks ago. BTW, on a totally unrelated note, I love Juliet.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jking said:


> I think probably one of the biggest clues we have seen thus far that the flash sideways are not the result of the bomb is that Ben is off island in the other reality. If there was a split from that point forward, if the bomb sank the island or whatever, Ben was still on the island at that point. He had not escaped with everyone else on the sub. Perhaps the bomb blast could have caused a reset that went back to earlier than 1977 (wouldn't be unheard of on this show) ... but as of this moment I'm sticking with the theory that the bomb blast is what always happened, and what always caused the incident to take place.


But it was Jack who brought the bomb to the hatch area. If the plane never crashed, then Jack never travelled back in time.

My head hurts.


----------



## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> But it was Jack who brought the bomb to the hatch area. If the plane never crashed, then Jack never travelled back in time.
> 
> My head hurts.


Also, women and children were evacuated from the island! And we don't know of the bomb immediately made the island sink.

Time traveling gives me nosebleeds.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

hefe said:


>


 I don't what hefe said, but I agree!


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Someone on the dock asked Ben "Who are you?", to which Ben replied "We're the good guys".


Sounded like that, but maybe he actually said "We're the good guise!"


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

getreal said:


> Sounded like that, but maybe he actually said "We're the good guise!"


Solar! Goth!


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jking said:


> I think probably one of the biggest clues we have seen thus far that the flash sideways are not the result of the bomb is that Ben is off island in the other reality. If there was a split from that point forward, if the bomb sank the island or whatever, Ben was still on the island at that point. He had not escaped with everyone else on the sub. Perhaps the bomb blast could have caused a reset that went back to earlier than 1977 (wouldn't be unheard of on this show) ... but as of this moment I'm sticking with the theory that the bomb blast is what always happened, and what always caused the incident to take place.


I'm not sure what you mean. Ben was on the island the day the bomb went off, but so were Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Jin and Sayid, all of whom are also off the island in the sideways. Unless you're saying that people who time traveled back to 1977 don't count as being on the island in 1977.


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

aindik said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Ben was on the island the day the bomb went off, but so were Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Jin and Sayid, all of whom are also off the island in the sideways. Unless you're saying that people who time traveled back to 1977 don't count as being on the island in 1977.


They were on the island in 1977, as adults. But not their children selves. Ben as a child was on the island in 1977 when the bomb went off.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

They don't count because younger versions of themselves existed off the island, while the only Ben in existence (that we know of) was Young Ben on the island in 1977.

Oops, beaten to the punch.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Has there ever been a character on TV with more names/nicknames than the Smoke Monster? Off the top of my head, here are the ones I can remember hearing/reading since this season began:

Smoke Monster
Smokey
Man in Black
MiB
Esau (Jacob & Esau)
FLocke (Fake Locke)
UnLocke
Locke Dressed Monster
FrankenLocke
Smocke (Smoke/Locke)
The Sad Day Monster (This one comes from some hilarious episode recaps supposedly being written by someone who's never watched Lost before this season. The name is a reference to the black raincloud that hangs over characters in comics to depict sad days).

I'm sure there are several more, perhaps even in this thread. What other names have you read/heard?


----------



## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Has there ever been a character on TV with more names/nicknames than the Smoke Monster? Off the top of my head, here are the ones I can remember hearing/reading since this season began:
> 
> Smoke Monster
> Smokey
> ...


Yeah, it is pretty comical. And what's even better... no matter what name is used, we all know immediately to whom they are referring. We've basically all turned into Sawyer with the nicknames!


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

That's what happens when a character/SOMETHING doesn't really have a name inside the series. Even the CHARACTERS don't know what to call it. The Monster, "pillar of smoke that floats around going tikka tikka".

Greg


----------



## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jking said:


> They were on the island in 1977, as adults. But not their children selves. Ben as a child was on the island in 1977 when the bomb went off.


Interesting. So in theory, Ben's dad never made it to the island via Dharma and Ben was not raised on the island.

Maybe something changes things so the Island itself ceases to exist.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm sure there are several more, perhaps even in this thread. What other names have you read/heard?


Terry O'Quinn calls it "Puff"


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Interesting. So in theory, Ben's dad never made it to the island via Dharma and Ben was not raised on the island.
> 
> Maybe something changes things so the Island itself ceases to exist.


It exists in the sideways. But sometime between the arrival of the Dharma Initiative and September 22, 2004, it ended up under water.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

betts4 said:


> Maybe something changes things so the Island itself ceases to exist.


Except it does, it's at the bottom of the ocean, with New Otherton and the 4-toed foot intact.

Greg


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Has there ever been a character on TV with more names/nicknames than the Smoke Monster? Off the top of my head, here are the ones I can remember hearing/reading since this season began:
> 
> Smoke Monster
> Smokey
> ...


Also, "Claire's friend".


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

One last thing before tonight's episode..

Ben's Dad kills Sayid (shot him, then he died).
Sayid tried to kill Ben.
Ben kills Ben's Dad.

Almost a perfect triangle.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Has there ever been a character on TV with more names/nicknames than the Smoke Monster? Off the top of my head, here are the ones I can remember hearing/reading since this season began:
> 
> Smoke Monster
> Smokey
> ...


Actually, John (JD) Dorian from Scrubs has more. Each week Dr. Cox would call him a different Female first name. That's a lot of nicknames over a 7 year run!

EDIT: Found this list on the Lost Wiki. Holy Smokes!

http://scrubs.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_J.D.'s_girl_names


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stiffi said:


> Actually, John (JD) Dorian from Scrubs has more. Each week Dr. Cox would call him a different Female first name. That's a lot of nicknames over a 7 year run!
> 
> EDIT: Found this list on the Lost Wiki. Holy Smokes!
> 
> http://scrubs.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_J.D.'s_girl_names


But those aren't names that people who watch the show call JD. That's just a running joke on the show between JD and Cox. However, I've seen fans of LOST call the Smoke Monster all of these names, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of concensus as to what to actually call him.


----------

