# Scaler Question



## beastman (May 26, 2002)

Further to my recent question about SD pcitures on a LCD I looked a liitle into the idea of getting a scaler.
I then realised it would cost a fortune but then I stumbled across this and hoped anyone would know if this would be a good option:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GEFEN-DVI-VID...ryZ61395QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

also see here:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174#buy

I wonder if this would make a significant difference to displaying SD material on a HD screen. Maybe this one that costs a fortune would be perform much better:

http://www.onevideo.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=398

Anyone got any experience of these scalers and would the cheaper one do the trick?


----------



## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

I have no experience of these products as such but to up-scale video properly is tricky - 3D filtering and all that malarkey. The only real way to decide if you want to spend the money is to see one in action in a set-up as close to your own as is possible - if the end result looks good to you then thats all that matters. 

Having said that I'd be wary of spending close to £2K


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't have any experience of that box, but certainly a good scaler makes quite a difference with a fixed pixel display. I use a PC to do it, and the improvement in SD pictures is marked. You hardly notice any pixellation or artefacts, just a "softness" of the image compared to HD.

remember your TV includes a built-in scaler, so just the fact of scaling doesn't improve things automatically, only of what you buy is better than your TV's on board kit.


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

I use a Lumagen HDP Pro in my system (for DVD and TiVo) and the picture quality is superb on a 50" plasma. I took it a stage further by having an SDI mod on the TiVo - picture quality from TiVo is DVD quality and DVD quality is way beyond what you would expect. To do it properly you will need something like the Lumagen or Crystallio scalers and add £300 to get your screen calibrated by a professional.

Alternative is to put a progressive scan convertor between the TiVo and screen. These are cheaper and will give better results than an interlaced output. I use a Zinwell one between a second TiVo and 42" plasma. http://www.keeneelectronics.co.uk/electronics/info/dnl_files/pdfs/PSC200i.pdf


----------



## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

I have often looked at these things but have been put off with the cost.

I use a 50" Pioneer 505 XDE, it has the media box. I don't know if the media box has any clever electronics, but the picture is very good, best analogue picture I have seen on any plasma or LCD is on the pioneer 505 XDE. However this set was 5K when it came out. I have said it before and I will say it again, you get what you pay for.


I actually brought it for half price £2.5 when the 506 model came out, right place right time.


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

A Lumagen scaler will cost about £2,000 and it uses some very high performance processing chips and clever software to do its job. There have been about 30 releases of software in two years as they constantly tweak it - all free to download from the Lumagen support site. Specialist item that needs proper setup (usually included in the price) as they are very complex.

Nothing will compare to the pictures it is capable of putting up though! Amazing device. http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

One day I'll justify that! Meanwhile, using a PC with ffshow achieves a lot of the same thing for a tiny fraction of the price.


----------



## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

For the TV I actually watch now days (not much), I can not justify the spend. I often look on ebay for a cheap unit, (still remember the tivo I got for £40 BIN about 3 years ago when they were selling for £250).

One day I will come across one, is the SLI mod the one with about 30 wires having to be soldered on the tivo system board?? I have been tempted by this mod.


p.s. Isn't this thread nice and peaceful?


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

6022tivo said:


> F often look on ebay for a cheap unit


You, me and everyone else, which is why they never go cheap!


----------



## Restorer (Jan 6, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I use a PC to do it, and the improvement in SD pictures is marked.


Can you explain what you need for this please?


----------



## Lysander (Sep 18, 2003)

Best to look at www.avforums.com for that. There is a whole forum dedicated to HTPC building.

From memory dScaler is a great way to power a fixed pixel display, but only works with certain graphics cards.

HTH


----------



## surrey lad (Sep 15, 2005)

I've been using for the past couple of years a crystalio 1 scaler with my dear TiVo plugged into it via scart-RGBs. Having just ordered (10 mins ago) a crystalio 2 I'm now wondering should I get my TiVo modded to SDI. BTW i'm running in mode 0 or similar.

Did you see a BIG difference after modding yours 



Heuer said:


> I use a Lumagen HDP Pro in my system (for DVD and TiVo) and the picture quality is superb on a 50" plasma. I took it a stage further by having an SDI mod on the TiVo - picture quality from TiVo is DVD quality and DVD quality is way beyond what you would expect. To do it properly you will need something like the Lumagen or Crystallio scalers and add £300 to get your screen calibrated by a professional.
> 
> Alternative is to put a progressive scan convertor between the TiVo and screen. These are cheaper and will give better results than an interlaced output. I use a Zinwell one between a second TiVo and 42" plasma. http://www.keeneelectronics.co.uk/electronics/info/dnl_files/pdfs/PSC200i.pdf


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

The SDI mod was done by PJ Hi-Fi and if your scaler accepts SDI then the improvement in picture quality is very impressive - almost HD. My TiVo is running in mode 0 as well. Cost of the mod will be about £200 - I paid to have the chip software modified to work with TiVo and made it free to other TiVo users.

The work was done about 2 years ago and the TiVo has not misseed a beat since. It does involve soldering about 10 fine wires to the motherboard and a board/socket mounted through the TiVo back plate- all very tidy.


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Heuer said:


> The SDI mod was done by PJ Hi-Fi and if your scaler accepts SDI then the improvement in picture quality is very impressive - almost HD. My TiVo is running in mode 0 as well. Cost of the mod will be about £200 - I paid to have the chip software modified to work with TiVo and made it free to other TiVo users.
> 
> The work was done about 2 years ago and the TiVo has not misseed a beat since. It does involve soldering about 10 fine wires to the motherboard and a board/socket mounted through the TiVo back plate- all very tidy.


Do they supply the mod as a DIY install option? cost?


----------



## surrey lad (Sep 15, 2005)

Heuer said:


> The SDI mod was done by PJ Hi-Fi and if your scaler accepts SDI then the improvement in picture quality is very impressive - almost HD. My TiVo is running in mode 0 as well. Cost of the mod will be about £200 - I paid to have the chip software modified to work with TiVo and made it free to other TiVo users.
> 
> The work was done about 2 years ago and the TiVo has not misseed a beat since. It does involve soldering about 10 fine wires to the motherboard and a board/socket mounted through the TiVo back plate- all very tidy.


I just looked back on an old tread that i'd posted on (post 44) on avforums asking Elliott from PJ how much..........£325. Take a look £325 for an SD SDI is about the going rate really  SDI made a big difference on my DVD player, couldn't get below black level without it.


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

healeydave said:


> Do they supply the mod as a DIY install option? cost?


You need to talk to PJ Hi-Fi about DIY. If you are good with a minature soldering iron you should be able to do it though as the SDI board is stand alone and held in place to the chassis by the connector. Wires then go to various parts of the TiVo motherboard. There are pictures on the original thread of my install.

The SDI board will be quite cheap - it is the installation that takes the time!


----------



## -MC- (Dec 9, 2005)

Heuer said:


> The SDI mod was done by PJ Hi-Fi and if your scaler accepts SDI then the improvement in picture quality is very impressive - almost HD. My TiVo is running in mode 0 as well. *Cost of the mod will be about £200 -* I paid to have the chip software modified to work with TiVo and made it free to other TiVo users.
> 
> The work was done about 2 years ago and the TiVo has not misseed a beat since. It does involve soldering about 10 fine wires to the motherboard and a board/socket mounted through the TiVo back plate- all very tidy.


Prices have gone up quite a bit since then, I had my Tivo SDI modded a year ago by PJ Hi-Fi and it was £375.

.


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

-MC- said:


> Prices have gone up quite a bit since then, I had my Tivo SDI modded a year ago by PJ Hi-Fi and it was £375.
> 
> .


Probably about what I paid actually - the cost of rewriting the SDI software + the board was £480! It did take them two weeks to get it all working but given they had never even seen a TiVo before .........

They SDI modded my Arcam DV27 DVD player and offered to do my Sky box, but I decided to do the TiVo instead.


----------



## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Crazy prices for these mods! For that money you could buy a SkyHD box and get SD scaling to HD apparently plus get HD channels.

Okay it's not TiVo, but if it's picture quality you want on HD TVs, TiVo is a poor choice as I've discovered.

Not sure about scalers as the built in scaler on my TV seems to do a cracking job with DVDs and even Sky via aux. TiVo sucks though, but I haven't gone for mode 0 yet (slightly concerned about the white flickering issue in mode 0).

As for HTPCs, there's a lot of control over the picture with a PC and various bits of software. Only thing I'm not sure about is scaling analogue external sources as you need to get it into a PC capture card in decent enough quality and live with it being digitised, and how would you get an RGB SCART signal into a PC?

I've played around a bit with HTPC stuff playing back downloaded videos and DVDs though and can get some excellent results scaling, but it's not so much the scaling than the way you can manipulate the dark levels (vital for LCDs).


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

DeadKenny said:


> Crazy prices for these mods! For that money you could buy a SkyHD box and get SD scaling to HD apparently plus get HD channels.


HD Channels ?what those being the same ones already on HD



DeadKenny said:


> Okay it's not TiVo, but if it's picture quality you want on HD TVs, TiVo is a poor choice as I've discovered.


You not making much sense here, the whole point of the SDI mod was to improve quality, as you haven't got the mod then your quoting something that wasn't being claimed in the first place. Also, this mod was originally pre-HD but as the users have claimed, the improvement with Scaler is apparently superb!



DeadKenny said:


> Not sure about scalers as the built in scaler on my TV seems to do a cracking job with DVDs and even Sky via aux. TiVo sucks though, but I haven't gone for mode 0 yet (slightly concerned about the white flickering issue in mode 0).


Again your moaning about tivo's quality and you haven't even attempted the modest hacks. There is an old thread on here where-by I have stated my picture quality using a Tivo with mode0 hacks and certain equipment is so good, HD is not a tempter for me at the moment and I am honest and sincere in that still today!!!!

I do think now HD is here all the tivo tweaks (mode 0, contrast hacks etc) are necessary and even then, the results are very dependent on the other kit, not necessarily from a "having to buy the most expensive brand" point of view, but simply finding a set whose picture and colour balancing engines etc work well with the tivo. If you hit on the right combination, I think the HD incentives have to be far better than the upgraded picture but a downgraded operating system that skyHD offers!


----------



## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

DeadKenny said:


> Not sure about scalers as the built in scaler on my TV seems to do a cracking job with DVDs and even Sky via aux.


No it doesn't I can guarantee that.

Why on earth do you think there is still a growing market for £800 a pop Lumagen/Pixel Magic etc scalers. I know people who have got a HD panel (Pioneer) and as soon as they saw a proper scaler working from an SD source couldn't run fast enough to the bank to get the cash out......


----------



## Heuer (Mar 15, 2004)

This article may help understand what a proper scaler does: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=learn1

Inbuilt TV or device scalers can't get anywhere close to the deicated device performance. A good scaler has more processing power than a good PC.

As to the TiVo SDI mod it takes away the desire for HD - SD material is transformed into near HD quality so there is a lot more choice.

Then again I thought calibrating my plasma screen was going to be a scam at £350 - how wrong I was!


----------



## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

Heuer said:


> Then again I thought calibrating my plasma screen was going to be a scam at £350 - how wrong I was!


Lucky you bought one that could be calibrated (Pioneer, Panasonic ?) as quite a lot of panels you get nowadays can't be calibrated either because there is no calibration menu (its factory set) or are impossible to calivrate (as they are crap).

Interesting article here on calibration.
http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/calibration.html

I wonder if nowadays you could calibrate your own display panel as there are colour calibrators starting at £100. My mate got one (Belkin ?) for his expensive Samsung computer LCD monitor as he does a lot of photo (and video) work and certainly looks better when viewing photos after calibration (though when using Windows looks very "lack of contrasty", but I suppose you can't have both).


----------



## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Oh I'm certain a 'proper' scaler does an excellent job and is worth the money if you can afford it. However that doesn't change the fact my TV still does a perfectly satisfactory job for my needs. DVDs in fact look better than they did on my old Sony WEGA CRT!

As for SDI, yes I haven't got the mod and I'm not likely to. Way too expensive. Rather get SkyHD for the price (even if I know TiVo is superior as a PVR). Ignoring the HD part of SkyHD, it (like Sky+) records off the digital stream which is instantly a lot more picture detail than TiVo can ever manage with all the hacks and upscalers in the world. Can't just invent detail that isn't there, you can only make what you've got look as best as possible. More than that, SkyHD will upscale SD to HD. Okay maybe not as good as a 'proper' scaler, but I'm not about to spend nearly the same amount of money as my TV on a 'proper' scaler!


----------



## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

In terms of improving PQ, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and SkyHD obviously gives you a good or best bang per buck (unless you have not had an eyetest recently) 

Once you ALREADY have Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and SkyHD then getting a better display with better processing (e.g Fujitsu Aviamo or xha58 series), ISF calibration and/or a high-end scaler and SDI mods are next on the shopping list.

I decided to go for the superb built-in processing of the Fujitsus, and might get a scaler later, followed by an SDI mod if we don't get another TiVo released in the UK.


----------



## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

DeadKenny said:


> Oh I'm certain a 'proper' scaler does an excellent job and is worth the money if you can afford it. However that doesn't change the fact my TV still does a perfectly satisfactory job for my needs. DVDs in fact look better than they did on my old Sony WEGA CRT!


The scalers inside many TVs are optimized for DVD resolutions, which mode 0 is.
Standard best quality (mode4) is not a standard DVD resolution.

That's why mode0 can make much more of a marked difference to PQ on LCDs & plasmas than just the few extra pixels would suggest.


----------



## TheBear (Feb 21, 2001)

Ian_m said:


> Why on earth do you think there is still a growing market for £800 a pop Lumagen/Pixel Magic etc scalers......


Why on earth do you think the market is actually diminishing..?


----------



## Pugwash (May 23, 2003)

I made sure I bought a 1080p TV that reviews said upscales SD broadcasts quite well. I then plug the PS3 in through the HDMI socket and get GREAT upscaled DVD output.
There's a list of US Blu-Ray discs that work fine on UK players too, so you can buy them for around £12 delivered quite often.
My TiVo will be relegated to the cupboard unless it performs magic tricks.


----------

