# Battlestar Galactica "Pegasus" 9/23/2005 *SPOILERS*



## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

The Admiral has GOT to either be a Spylon or just a plain psychopath.

Rob


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robpickles said:


> The Admiral has GOT to either be a Spylon or just a plain psychopath.
> 
> Rob


Seems like a psychopath to me.

And I'm no expert on Colonial law, but in our universe raping a prisoner is a capital offense, so a strong legal argument could be made that Helo and the Chief were totally justified in their actions to prevent a crime that was being committed.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

WOW! I had no idea how much time was left in the ep so I was SO shocked (and pissed!) when it abruptly ended! Why can't the President do anything? Isn't she in command of even the Admiral?

What a great episode and season. I can't wait until January!!!


PS Do we know if Sharon's still pregnant or not? Wasn't the last time we saw her was when she was in the operating room and Xena the reporter saw her?


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Seems like a psychopath to me.
> 
> And I'm no expert on Colonial law, but in our universe raping a prisoner is a capital offense, so a strong legal argument could be made that Helo and the Chief were totally justified in their actions to prevent a crime that was being committed.


Yea, but in their universe the Cylon's aren't people... they're robots without feelings or rights, etc.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

I also think the "Cylon Interrogater" was a bit much with the rapings. Pegasus' Admiral and crew need some serious therapy.

Rob


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Wow. That scene with the Cylon Interrogator is quite possibly the most vivid and shocking bit of television I've seen outside of The Shield. That really just set me on edge and had me saying "Holy frak" once it was all done.

I'm wondering if PegasusSix is the one that Gaius is supposed to impregnate. 

I'm also wondering about the significance of the Cylons staying on the trail of Galactica. 

Some interesting (if dizzying) camera work at the end during the conversation between Adama and Admiral Ro. I liked it.

The only real complaint, and it's fairly major, is the HORRIBLE music in some of the scenes. The two worst compositions were in the scene where Admiral Ro lands on Galactica in the Raptor, and when Gaius is in the cell with PegasusSix and is bringing her food. It was so horribly bad that it just ruined each of those two scenes for me.

It's gonna be a long three months.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

The music was definitely different than past episodes. I didn't mind it but I did feel it was odd from them to change music like that out of nowhere for this episode.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

That was a lot of alert fighters! I wouldn't be surprised if Pegasus has more alert fighters that Galactica has total fighters. 

If they don't agree to live and let live and transfer everyone back it is going to play havoc with the back half of the season. Apollo is out on a Pegasus missions, Baltar in in the Pegasus brig, there are a bunch of Pegasus crew on Galactica, we don't know who else was transferred from Galactica to Pegasus... Thats more than can be straightened out even with a successful snatch and grab of the prisoners. 

I did like the fact that Pegasus looked different than Galactica. It should since Galactica is an older battlestar. And they were careful to keep all of Pegasus's Vipers the new mark VIIs, as they should be. 

I was surprised the Admiral didn't make any mention of what Pegasus did to overcome the Cylon attack on the networked battlestar computers. Sure, they might not have had a chance in that first encounter at the shipyard, but unless Pegasus knew to take countermeasures they should have gotten disabled by it the first time they jumped the Cylons, and by they own admission they've been doing hit and run raids on them since they escaped. 

A heck of a change from the original show's episode with Pegasus.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Wow. That was intense.

I thought it was awfully cool bringing back the traditional Battlestar look for the Pegasus.

Sure is going to be a long wait...


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## Rojma (May 18, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> I was surprised the Admiral didn't make any mention of what Pegasus did to overcome the Cylon attack on the networked battlestar computers.


I'm betting that they use just that to disable the Peagus and get back the Galactica crew members. They could use the Cylon aboard Galactica (Sharon) to spread the Cylon virus to the Peagus, disabling it and all of its fighters giving Galactica the edge. I'm sure Sharon would be more than willing after her attempted rape.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think the Pegasus is one of the modern ships, so that would explain the differences... 

I also make the parallel to cylons and slaves...it was perfectly normal to rape a slave since they were not considered "human"  

finally, I'm a little disappointed...the solution to this stand-off is pretty easy and obvious: the president will relieve the Admiral and promote Adama to take over the entire fleet...a little tense moments as the Admiral orders her people around but then they stand their ground and not obey her...I hope the writers are not this predictable!


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## stantonl (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow! I was thrown off the couch by this ep. I must say the rape as a interrogation tactic is a bit over board. I don't see how demoting apollo will help the situation. That would be nothing but a mutiny waiting to happen in my opinion. I was glad to see adama stand up for his men. Can't wait until Jan. 
Stantonl


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Holy crap! I can't believe this series outdoes itself week after week after week. 

It will be a long wait till january, but hey-at least it's not a year, like 24, nip/tuck or The sopranos.


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## oski87 (Dec 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Seems like a psychopath to me.
> 
> And I'm no expert on Colonial law, but in our universe raping a prisoner is a capital offense, so a strong legal argument could be made that Helo and the Chief were totally justified in their actions to prevent a crime that was being committed.


Yeeeah... that's sort of... the whole point....

Adama aint just exerting blind loyalty. He is consistently moral first, military second.

OK- On to more important points:

JANUARY????? FRAKFRAKFRAKFRAKFRAKMOTHERFRAKFRAKFRAKFRAK!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the music was incredible tonite, start to finish.


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## oski87 (Dec 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> finally, I'm a little disappointed...the solution to this stand-off is pretty easy and obvious: the president will relieve the Admiral and promote Adama to take over the entire fleet...a little tense moments as the Admiral orders her people around but then they stand their ground and not obey her...I hope the writers are not this predictable!


I will toss $50 down now that says that is NOT going to be how this shakes out.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

I really liked this one. I really need to get season one on DVD.


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## Johnsan (Sep 24, 2005)

Yeah no way will the admiral let herself be removed, she does not respect civilian authority as suggested by fact she drafted the civilian avionics dude as the bay chief (probably after icing the old one hahah great management style). She is likely to remove the Pres if she gets the chance.

I think maybe her hard-drinking XO (Russell Crowe's buddy from LA Confidential) might just take out his sidearm and ice *her* to end the upcoming sh1tstorm, making Adama the new military boss. Actually I don't think that, but it would be cool.

Didn't the original BSG have a Pegasus battlestar captained by Lloyd Bridges?


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Any of you notice the hesitation on Pegasus when Admiral Cain ordered military action while there wasn't any on Galactica. My money is on Pegasus crew removing Cain from command. And since name of the show is Galactica, Pegasus won't make it past this season.


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## Omega Supreme (Jul 20, 2005)

Holy crap, that has got to be the best season/half-season finale (?) I've ever seen. I just knew something like this would happen, but wow, it still gave me goosebumps.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Rojma said:


> I'm betting that they use just that to disable the Peagus and get back the Galactica crew members. They could use the Cylon aboard Galactica (Sharon) to spread the Cylon virus to the Peagus, disabling it and all of its fighters giving Galactica the edge. I'm sure Sharon would be more than willing after her attempted rape.


Hmm, this had never even crossed my mind. Interesting hypotheses....

I too wondered the whole time as to how they survived w/their more advanced networked computers and wished they addressed it.

Yes, in TOS Pegasus was commanded by Lloyd Bridges.

The music was definitely different in this ep but I didn't mind it at all. If you wanna hear bad sci-fi music, try watching the B5 spinoff: Crusade. Man, the music was annoying.

I was afraid that this ep would be a major disappointment since they picked a female to be the commander of Pegasus and just a ho hum character from Star Trek TNG (Ensign Ro) at that. I was hoping for Claudia Christian or Kate Mulgrew or maybe Linda Hamilton if they were going to use a woman. But, in the end.... WOW! This was an incredible ep!

BSG now has 3 thumbs up on my Tivo instead of 2.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

oski87 said:


> I will toss $50 down now that says that is NOT going to be how this shakes out.


For one thing, Pegasus can't survive--otherwise, it would become/remain the flagship of the fleet (being bigger, badder, and newer) and they'd have to change the title to "Battlestar Pegasus," and I don't see them doing it.

I'm not convinced that Pegasus HAS been fighting the Cylons, since as has been noted Admiral Ro has given no indication of how they could possibly have survived first contact with the enemy. And I'm more than a little surprised nobody on the show has raised the question, since it's a huge and obvious flaw in Ro's story.


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## VinceA (May 13, 2002)

Not to be a spoiler but doesn't anyone remember what happened to the Pegasus in the original show? I fully expect the same (or similar) to happen this time. I knew Cain was going to be a pain in the ass since it fit the original mold cast by Lloyd Bridges. Also, notice how she said "Welcome back to the Colonial Fleet" when she boarded Galactic the first time. She's considering her ship and whatever support ships (which I didn't see any of) the 'fleet' whereas Galactica and it's band of ships are joining her as opposed to vice versa. She's a nutjob and it's going to be a hell of a ride while she's around


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## Ian (Mar 7, 2000)

Damn awesome ep...

Here's my guess for part 2:

Just as the two sets of alert fighters are about to start firing, the Cylon fleet that's been tracking Galactica will jump in.

Cain and Adama will (reluctantly) agree to postpone blasting each other out of space to face the common threat, and both battlestars and their ships will begin to defend themselves against the Cylons.

The Pegasus will be the more aggressive and offensive battlestar, but will be very heavily damaged... during this fight, Baltar/Six v2, and Helo/Tyrol will escape back to the Galactica (TPTB will forget about the other, minor players who may have been transferred over).

The combined battlestars will destroy the Cylon fleet, but at the last moment, Pegasus will take a whopping hit that looks like it'll destroy them... and then Cain will order another random jump.

All of Pegasus' vipers will return to the Galactica... (except that nasty CAG, who will be killed) and we'll also get to keep their engineering mastermind former deck chief.

This guess addresses the following:

- homage to the original series "Pegasus" eps, i.e. they fight a Cylon fleet together, we don't actually know what happens to the Pegasus, and the Galactica gets news ships/personnel

- we get Tyrol/Helo/Baltar back


Whaddaya think?

-Ian

P.S. I loved the music last night... interesting take.


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## cpemberton (Nov 16, 2003)

Anyone know if season 2 will be rerun in HD on HDNet or was it UHD last season?


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## Richard R1 (Sep 20, 2002)

My comments and ideas:

- Regarding Admiral Cain's opinion toward Madame President, there is no way Cain would respect anything she ordered -- "She's the Secretary of Education?!?".

- The truth about how Pegasus "escaped" Caprica is going to be a mind-blower, I think. Considering the command mentality of Admiral Cain, she may have committed treasonous acts in order to escape, such as shooting down friendly ships to draw attention away from the Pegasus while they plotted their jump.

- I agree that there is no way that the Pegasus can stay in the show, at least with Cain in command. As Alvis suggested in message #18, I like the idea of her own officers taking her out, and submitting themselves to Galactica, with Adama in overall command.

- Nobody has mentioned Starbuck, and the Blackbird. After introducing a stealth ship to the show, you just know that Adama is going to use it somehow, perhaps in the role of retrieving his condemned men.

- And, as Rob suggested in message #21, I agree that the Pegasus has not been fighting Cylons. They don't have the attitude of a group of Colonials who's been all on their own, and constantly battling the Cylons. More likely, they have been running scared and hyper-jumping at the sight of ANY Cylons. They WERE very interested in the mysterious Cylon ship, but they still just don't look like a battle hardened crew.

- Only three months will tell.


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## the_scotsman (Jul 28, 2005)

cwerdna said:


> Hmm, this had never even crossed my mind. Interesting hypotheses....
> 
> I too wondered the whole time as to how they survived w/their more advanced networked computers and wished they addressed it.
> 
> .


I think it was explained. The Pegasus had just docked to start an overhaul when the cylons attacked. This suggested to me that the ship had not yet recieved the latest equipment updates and therefore did not have Baltar's latest software with Cylon disable codes.

Paul M.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Wow, this show just gets better and better. I can not wait 3 months!

Before I aw this episode I thought the President would step in to promote Adama. But now with them being on the edge of fighting I don't think Cain would respect any orders the President gives.

I am curious how everyone will get back to the Galactica. Unless it works something like the original series regarding Pegasus like someone mentioned above.

J


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

My guess is that Starbuck and the Raptor recon mission will find out something Caprica-shattering about the mystery ship and return just in time to avert the conflict between the fleets. Also, something will happen during that mission to get the Pegasus CAG to respect Apollo and perhaps help lead to the downfall of Ro...er Cain.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

What an episode! However, I do believe that the series can go on with the Pegasus in tow....as long as Adama is the "true" leader. After all, there are lots of ships in the fleet now that we never see or even hear about, and it does nothing to hurt the show.

Perhaps Baltar, acting as the VP, will contact Roslyn and tell her about the abuse/rape of Pegasus 6....and Roslyn will make Cane step down, or take a demotion. 

I would just hate to lose such a great military asset in the Pegasus if it really were destroyed.

Oh, and me and my wife both really hated the music toward the beginning of the ep. Yuck!

EDIT: Did anyone notice that they didn't tell Cane anything about finding Kobol, the tomb of Athena, and the star map?


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## ToddAtl (Jul 27, 2003)

An incredible episode! I hope the writers do come up with an unexpected solution to the standoff. Having the president come in and flex her authority seems to easy like others have said. Having the Pegasus crew in essence mutiny against the admiral also seems quite unlikely, they all seem pretty nuts and loyal to her. 

I wish they weren't taking so much time off, its not like there is anything of quality on the networks friday nights to be scared of!


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## DRobbins (Dec 23, 2001)

Can someone refresh me on the plot of the original Galactica series episode with the Pegasus? 

Thanks.


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## ToddAtl (Jul 27, 2003)

DRobbins said:


> Can someone refresh me on the plot of the original Galactica series episode with the Pegasus?
> 
> Thanks.


If I could use spoiler tags correctly I would say but I agree with what others have said- however the standoff ends, what happens ultimately to Pegasus will track the original series and should probably be put in tags for folks who would like to be surprised.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

I don't know. I don't think this Admiral Cain has much in common with the original except for the name and rank.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

ronsch said:


> I don't know. I don't think this Admiral Cain has much in common with the original except for the name and rank.


In the original series Adama was also Capricas representive on the council of twelve and was the only survivor of the original council (well except for Baltar). Adama was head of the council and used that authority to take command of the pegaus from Commander kane (who was not an admiral in the original).


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

7thton said:


> EDIT: Did anyone notice that they didn't tell Cane anything about finding Kobol, the tomb of Athena, and the star map?


Or did they? Adama gave his ship's logs to the Pegasus. The psycho Admiral made a big deal out of critiqing them.


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

OK, a bunch of random answers from the podcast...

First, Moore said that this episode ran very long... over 15 minutes long. They initially tried to expand it out to a 90 minute episode but eventually gave up and wound up _really_ cutting it. He did say that the (eventual) DVD Season 2 release _will_ contain the entire uncut episode. He said, however, that his comments would include some things about scenes that were cut. So, a few things did get clarified.

For example, the Pegasus was in for refit at the time of the attack, which means their computer network was down at the time. That was how they survived the inital virus attack. Through luck they avoided the original physical attack. Admiral Caine had the Pegasus make a random jump to just get away. They later somehow figured out about the virus. (He admitted that they didn't know how they made that discovered but just assumed that they somehow did.)

He also goes into a long discussion on why they made the changes from the original BSG episode "The Living Legend" to "Pegasus" and admits that pretty much all that is left is that the Galactica encounters another battlestar commanded by someone named Caine.

We know Six's name! It's Gina! (Yeah, I know. That never bothered anyone but me.) Moore says that a lot of fans of the original show call this one GINO, meaning "Galactica In Name Only". He says they named her Gina as a joke on that name.

Excellent, excellent episode. Man, can this show get any darker?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...in our universe raping a prisoner is a capital offense, so a strong legal argument could be made that Helo and the Chief were totally justified in their actions to prevent a crime that was being committed.


I am in no way defending what they attempted to do, but remember, when Adama asked Cain how they could have gotten a fair trial, she said she took in to account several things including statements from the guards who were with the Cylon interrogator. And you KNOW they lied, so basically, it was "he said...she said" and we know how that goes with the Admiral.



robpickles said:


> I also think the "Cylon Interrogater" was a bit much with the rapings. Pegasus' Admiral and crew need some serious therapy.


 Yes, it is...but to deny this really happens is not reality. You can bet this happens in this present day.



skittles said:


> The only real complaint, and it's fairly major, is the HORRIBLE music in some of the scenes. The two worst compositions were in the scene where Admiral Ro lands on Galactica in the Raptor, and when Gaius is in the cell with PegasusSix and is bringing her food. It was so horribly bad that it just ruined each of those two scenes for me.


 I completely disagree. I thought the music nicely added to the atmosphere of those scenes, and, yes it was different. What's wrong with different?



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not convinced that Pegasus HAS been fighting the Cylons, since as has been noted Admiral Ro has given no indication of how they could possibly have survived first contact with the enemy. And I'm more than a little surprised nobody on the show has raised the question, since it's a huge and obvious flaw in Ro's story.


 I agree...they didn't look, act, or react like they'd been in battle with the Cylons.



Richard R1 said:


> - Nobody has mentioned Starbuck, and the Blackbird. After introducing a stealth ship to the show, you just know that Adama is going to use it somehow, perhaps in the role of retrieving his condemned men.


 Those were EXACTLY my thoughts when the ep ended. You can bet Starbuck will play a major role in Season 3, Ep 1!


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## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I completely disagree. I thought the music nicely added to the atmosphere of those scenes, and, yes it was different. What's wrong with different?


I don't mind different, as long as it adds to the atmosphere of the scene.

Take the scene where Baltar goes into the interrogation room, for example. The music makes it sound like he's Cowboy Gaius. It's so out of place that it takes me out of the scene, and really detracts from what I'm supposed to be engrossed in.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

In my little mind I think it would have been cool if the tension was between the President and the Admiral and the Admiral was going to stage another coup thinking she would have the backing of Adama since he has stopped recognizing her authority before. But then Adama back the President instead.

Well it would have been a lot of stuff already seen in S1. But it would have been cool to see the standoff over the President!

When Cain said they have a Cylon prisoner I was hoping to see a new Cylon, then I started hoping it would be another Boomer! Then she could get on Galactica somehow and Chief and Helo could have one!

J


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

What were Adama's final words before the opening credits????

Maybe that large Cylon ship has something to do with it.

The same technology that allows Baltar to think he sees 6(Gina), spread across the entire fleet?


{Bondage 6!}


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## GTO40 (Jul 25, 2005)

First time poster 

DRobbins - As I remember in the OS, Caine was relieved of his command after disagreeing with Adama over sharing Pegasus fuelstores which the fleet desperately needed. As Apollo and company boarded the Pegasus to disperse the fuel, the cylons attacked. Caine was reinstated for his "tactical wizardry ". Adama and Caine later jointly attacked a Cylon city, gassed up the fleet. Pegasus headed to attack the 3 Cylon baseships head on, as Pegasus approached Baltar withdrew his basestar. As the Pegasus neared both basestars, Apollo & Starbuck eliminated their pulsars, clearing the way. Pegasus fired her " missiles " at both basestars. As the basestars exploded, Apollo and Starbuck lost sight of the Pegasus. 

Later, Adama implies Caine survived, he just headed somewhere back out into deep space

Current BG - awesome - best show period -


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> You can bet Starbuck will play a major role in Season 3, Ep 1!


You mean season 2 episode 11.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> I am in no way defending what they attempted to do, but remember, when Adama asked Cain how they could have gotten a fair trial, she said she took in to account several things including statements from the guards who were with the Cylon interrogator. And you KNOW they lied, so basically, it was "he said...she said" and we know how that goes with the Admiral.


Right, I'm just saying that the criminal acts of Admiral Ro's men, and her subsequent white-washing of them, give Adama a pretty strong legal excuse for taking action against her.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Skittles said:


> Admiral Ro


LOL


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

Skittles said:


> The only real complaint, and it's fairly major, is the HORRIBLE music in some of the scenes. The two worst compositions were in the scene where Admiral Ro lands on Galactica in the Raptor, and when Gaius is in the cell with PegasusSix and is bringing her food. It was so horribly bad that it just ruined each of those two scenes for me.


Same here. I mostly noticed it in the scene with Ro and posse landing on Galactica. Some funky guitar new-agey mess. Ugh.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Great episode. Even though I knew it was coming, I can't believe we have to wait until January to continue this.

As for all the assumptions that Pres. Roslyn would simply demote Caine or promote Adama over her, I've gotten the vibe from this series that their government doesn't really work like ours where the President is also the Commander in Chief. I think the civilians and the military are completely autonomous and neither has the authority to command the other. This is why there have been so many clashes between Adama and Roslyn, as they have tried to figure out how to co-exist in a relatively tight-knit community.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

7thton said:


> Did anyone notice that they didn't tell Cane anything about finding Kobol, the tomb of Athena, and the star map?


I think she knows. She read Adama's logs and by the look of them, there was a *ton* of content. She also made some comments, I forget specifics, implying she knew about Helo, the chief, etc. She probaby can't care any less about Kobol, finding Earth, arrows, and gods. She's a military gal and killing Cylons is the only thing that interests her.


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

Adama's reaction of Caine seems to me that he know's a lot about her and it isn't good and he doesn't care for her. That Capt. Taylor dude is odd....... he repeated his name twice to Starbuck. When they first met up, it seemed they were both cold to one another. 

The music is great and fitting! I guess people hate change! Remember all the bellyaching about Starbuck being a girl before the mini-series??


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

I don't mind 'change' at all. The music of this show is one of it's great things: very unique and distinctive score they usually use. But the new-agey guitar they used this week was just generically bland. Sounded like some leftover music from Joan of Arcadia.


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## mrdbdigital (Feb 3, 2004)

So, is there a Sheba on the Battlestar Pegasus?

db


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

On the whole I didn't mind the music. The only bit that felt off to me was when Baltar gave food to Gina (Six). That sounded like something from Firefly.

J


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

mrdbdigital said:


> So, is there a Sheba on the Battlestar Pegasus?
> 
> db


Might be a guy!!


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

So this seems to be the first time Gaius talks about six/shelly out loud. Do you think what he was saying that she is just a figment is true because he did love her? They havent really explained what happened in the beginning when she protected him during the original attack.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Who else noticed that the sandwich Gaius gave to 6(Gina) in the cell didn't have the corners cut off!!

I hate when the simplest things get missed in the continuity dept..


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Did or did not Starbuck take the Blackbird to do some recon? Just after the recon briefing, Apollo gave Starbuck a pack with recon equipment to do just that. And, there was mention in the launch bay about the Blackbird going out for a test. Or did I just dream all of that?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

DLL66 said:


> That Capt. Taylor dude is odd....... he repeated his name twice to Starbuck.


That might have been a subtle snubbing. He introduced himself as Captain Taylor, Starbuck replied "Kyra Thrace", and Cpt Taylor restated "_Captain_ Taylor". By repeating his military rank he is pointing out that Starbuck omitted hers, i.e. wasn't following military formalities.



JimSpence said:


> Did or did not Starbuck take the Blackbird to do some recon? Just after the recon briefing, Apollo gave Starbuck a pack with recon equipment to do just that. And, there was mention in the launch bay about the Blackbird going out for a test. Or did I just dream all of that?


I remember all that. I assume that the "test flight" is just a cover story Starbuck gave the Chief as an excuse to borrow the Blackbird. After all how likely is it that just as Starbuck was going to borrow it Admiral Cane decided she needed to know just what it can do?


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> Did or did not Starbuck take the Blackbird to do some recon? Just after the recon briefing, Apollo gave Starbuck a pack with recon equipment to do just that. And, there was mention in the launch bay about the Blackbird going out for a test. Or did I just dream all of that?


No, you didn't dream it. She is supposed to be tagging along with Apollo's raptor on the recon mission, very stealthily of course!


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

DRobbins said:


> Can someone refresh me on the plot of the original Galactica series episode with the Pegasus?
> 
> Thanks.


GTO40's summary was pretty good. http://www.kobol.com/archives/guide.html under "The Living Legend" has a brief summary too.

I think they'll leave the ending ambiguous just like in TOS.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> You mean season 2 episode 11.


Whatever...I'm so confused...


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

The survivor number in the credits bumped up this week  to include the Pegasus crew, I suppose.

It seems to me one of the first thing they should have done was compare notes on identified Cylon models. Maybe Pegasus only knows about the 6-model but Galactica could has shown them a photo line-up and said if you have anyone who looks like this

I dont think the Pegasus pilots are lying about their scorecards. I believe they have really been fighting Cylons.

I cant decide whether the story the Pegasus XO told to Tigh, about Cain shooting the previous XO, is true or not. I didnt know what to believe; what made Tigh so certain it was true when he told Adama about it? I hope they review the Pegasus logs on the show, Cains criticisms of Galactica are all on point (unfortunately); but I would like to hear what in her logbooks!

Assuming what Cain says about the Cylon force following Galactica around is true, I think that lends weight to the idea that the Cylons are toying with Galactica, staying a step behind them to keep them on edge. 

I didnt notice the music the first time around but after reading the criticism of it I paid more attention the second time I watched the show. I thought some of it was kind of cheesy, but I thought it really worked in the final confrontation scene between Adama and Cain; it built intensity well.

I dont think it matters too much what Cains opinion of Roslins legitimacy is. What she thinks about her demotion or Adamas promotion is not what counts; its her crew that matters. When presented with a legitimate alternative to her leadership, IMO, they will choose to join the BSG fleet (sorry, Cain, one ship does not a fleet make). Thats why the other XO, Fisk, contacted Tigh  I got the impression that was a person-to-person conversation, not an official announcement of the verdict, like to say See. Here she goes again. And the looks from her crew on the bridge and the warning from the XO make me think her crew is ready to turn on Cain. Whether shes killed in battle or by mutiny or another way, my bet is Cain doesnt make it out of the next episode. 

However, I think the Pegasus will be around for a while. But who will be in command after they off Cain? Tigh? No, hes proven the notion that some good first officers make terrible captains. Same excuse for why it wont be the XO on Pegasus. I bet either Lee, because of something D said to him earlier in the season about how the Galactica crew would rather follow him than Tigh; Or my personal guess, Capt Taylor, the CAG on Pegasus.


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## Talon (Dec 5, 2001)

Tigh thinks that what the Pegasus XO told him while drinking was true. I'm betting he's right.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

The big difference to me between this version of Cain/Pegasus and the original is that Lloyd Bridges was a charasmatic leader, whose crew followed him out of loyalty, whereas Admiral Ro Cain seems to be commanding through fear ... the story of her shooting the XO, rape and torture of prisoners (the way her crewman laugh about it is chilling, as well as telling), pressing civilians into service ... granted the situation is pretty dire, but that's not someone I would want to serve under, regardless of circumstances.

I noticed that one of the Pegasus viper jockey's was Sebastian Spence, who used to star in First Wave. He got billing at the beginning too, so maybe he's the new Sheba.


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## mrpantstm (Jan 25, 2005)

when I saw the 'To Be Continued' I nearly crapped my pants. I can't remember the last "season finale" that I was this much on my seat from.

As far as the episode goes I'm sure everything on my mind has been said. The thing I can't believe that wasn't mentioned was:

Okay you're (the pegasus) following the cyclons. The cyclons are following us because we have the last of humanity. show some damn respect!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

funny how everyone is forgetting that season 1 finale was pretty intense as well  

The president is the Commander in Chief...that was established in the Mini...please let's not rehash this argument again... 

I'm still sticking to my hunch that the president will step in and relieve Caine...I'll also add my prediction that the Pegasus will go out in a blaze of glory taking out this big cylon ship that they are now "hunting"... 

there was no "rape"...there will not be any moral outrage...cylons are just toasters...you cannot be charged with raping a toaster...


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## Dweller (Aug 29, 2001)

Skittles said:


> It's gonna be a long three months.


3 MONTHS??!!

NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo *breathes* ooooooooooo...........

that is WAY to long to have to see how this ends up


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Anubys said:


> there was no "rape"...there will not be any moral outrage...cylons are just toasters...you cannot be charged with raping a toaster...


Did you learn as a child? DON'Y STICK A FORK IN THE TOASTER!!!


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## spot1x (Jun 8, 2004)

the 6 in the dr's head seemed really upseat and when she said its me... like it IS HER that transfered when the nuke went off. I wonder if this is the real 6 balter knew back home? Would be a cool twist.


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## purple6816 (May 27, 2003)

The Cylons are following the fleet because they want the child. It is written about the child. 

Great episode. But, last episode they were complaining about being over worked and not enough fighters. They just got restocked with pilots and fighers. The admiral moving people back and forth was the only way to do this.

But, Adama rocks by sending in the marines.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Did you learn as a child? DON'Y STICK A FORK IN THE TOASTER!!!


Thoroughly twisted!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Interesting how 6 had no idea who the spylon was...she was just as shocked as Baltar...


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Best Show on TV PERIOD.
I've never looked forward to any show being on like I do this one.


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## purple6816 (May 27, 2003)

I put this one up there with Firefly.


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

What's really sad is that I did not KNOW this was the season finale....until reading this thread. Oh the disappointment!! 

Ok, I loved the idea of Cain coming back....but Ensign Ro is now an Admiral?! She just didn't fit the rank...sorry, but even without the TNG background, they should have had someone much more in that role. In the original the fact that Cain was a legend, and the fact that both he and Adama were the same rank, made for a lot of conflict. 

I had a hard enough time accepting Starbuck for crying out loud!!! Whether man or woman though, they should have made Cain older/wiser/bigger in stature... not just a maniac character. 

Ok, besides my Cain miscast rant, the rest of the show rocked. Very nice.


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## TiVoLance (Aug 29, 2002)

Skittles said:


> I don't mind different, as long as it adds to the atmosphere of the scene.
> 
> Take the scene where Baltar goes into the interrogation room, for example. The music makes it sound like he's Cowboy Gaius. It's so out of place that it takes me out of the scene, and really detracts from what I'm supposed to be engrossed in.


I agree that the music they were using in that scene was distracting to me. It was way too loud for one and took away from the drama of the moment. Otherwise I loved this episode. :up: :up: :up:


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

net114 said:


> What's really sad is that I did not KNOW this was the season finale....until reading this thread. Oh the disappointment!!


It's not, really.

SciFi is splitting the season into two parts. The first half just finished airing; the second half will air beginning in January.

So this was, if anything, a "mid-season finale," which really is getting ridiculous. It'd be like calling each episode a finale of the week.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Interesting how 6 had no idea who the spylon was...she was just as shocked as Baltar...


Or she ACTED like she had no idea.


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

I'm really surprised that this episode was written by a women. I knew that Gina had to have been tortured really bad but had no idea how bad it was. I was surprised that they only had the warning before the segment and not at the begining of the episode like other shows have done in the past. 

I do think that Sharron is still preg. The chief made refence to the baby and I believe reporter women did as well. 

Emily (am I the only women in this thread?)


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## EchoBravo (Apr 20, 2002)

> *I knew that Gina had to have been tortured really bad but had no idea how bad it was.*


I always wrote off the actress who plays Six as a pretty face, dime a dozen former model-turned-actress, but she was great in this episode. The pain and torture she had been through was so well conveyed by her movements, or lack thereof... It was just brilliantly done. Makeup had a role in that, too, of course.

The level of tension in this episode was palpable. It almost made me nervous... Like a good horror movie. The Pegasus crew just creeped me out. Then the pre-rape scene warning had my head spinning wondering what we were in for. Uptight people wrote Paramount and complained about the "orgy of torture" that was the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Chain of Command, Part II. What will they say about this!?

I'm torn on the music. I liked it, but it did pull me out of the moment a couple of times. It was so different, it was just startling at times... Like it didn't quite fit the mood of the show.

The camera work on the final scene between Adama and Ensign Ro was incredible. LOVED it and I must've watched that scene about 3 times just to take in more. That 360 degree, continual movement thing they had going on was just incredible.

Seems I think this every week, but that may have been one of the best 44 minutes of TV ever.

Final Note: Is Michelle Forbes pregnant? She looked puffy on BSG. On ST: TNG she was, in Capt. Picard's words, "looking fit." Not saying she looked bad or anything, just definitely different. Even in 24, she looked really thin.


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## jhausmann (Aug 21, 2002)

oski87 said:


> I will toss $50 down now that says that is NOT going to be how this shakes out.


What, am I the only one who remembers Llloyd Bridges as the Admiral in the first series? I expect this series will do the same, with Pegasus leaving to strike at will against the cylons...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

EchoBravo said:


> Final Note: Is Michelle Forbes pregnant? She looked puffy on BSG. On ST: TNG she was, in Capt. Picard's words, "looking fit." Not saying she looked bad or anything, just definitely different.


Well, that WAS more than a decade ago...


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## autotelic (Jan 18, 2005)

Did anyone else think that Larry, Pegasus Deck Chief, bore a striking resemblance to a known Cylon, the one they left behind in the arms locker in season 1? And he was sooooo wanting to see the Blackbird. And did Pegasus pick up any other civilians when/where they got him? 
For the first half-hour I was convinced they were all cylons; we really didn't see anyone besides the landing party (6 or 7 people) and Cain was evasive (she didn't actually say they had been attacking cylons when Adama asked her; she said "you know what they say about the best defense...") and too interested in breaking up the team (by removing the key players) and getting the logs. But then we actually saw more of the crew on Pegasus and that theory was shot to hell. So then I decided that she's been bluffing her way through since the first jump "to no-where or anywhere" and has taken her crew on a ride down a slippery slope. No way was she unaware of the interrogation techniques Strom was using. She's too "Type A" for that. Now the only thing I'm sure of is that I don't know what's going to happen next but I will absolutely be here to find out in January!


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## mrpantstm (Jan 25, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Interesting how 6 had no idea who the spylon was...she was just as shocked as Baltar...


I found this interesting too. Either the cyclon link isn't powerful enough to communicate from the Pegasus or maybe she's more linked to Baltar than we think.


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

The attempted rape scene was intense. I knew something was going to happen when they played that disclaimer right after the break.


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## DVC California (Jun 4, 2004)

jhausmann said:


> What, am I the only one who remembers Llloyd Bridges as the Admiral in the first series?


Yes, you are. 

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/classicguide.htm

"The Living Legend, Part I" The legendary *Commander Cain* of the battlestar Pegasus meets up with the Colonial survivors and ignites a new campaign against the Cylons at Gamoray. But Adama finds Cain's warmonging ways to threaten the fleet's very existence, despite to renewed morale among the Colonials. Sheba, Cain's daughter and love interest for Apollo (Anne Lockhart) and Bojay (Jack Stauffer) are introduced.

"The Living Legend, Part II" Facing overwhelming odds, *Commander Cain*, teamed with the Galactica's warriors, continues his campaign to destroy the Cylons at Gamoray regardless of the cost. The Pegasus is lost at the end of the episode, after destroying two Cylon basestars. It is theorized that the battlestar escaped into deep space and that Cain will eventually meet up with the fleet again.


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

I personally hated the episode after the halfway point. The predictable raping and evil crew vs the rule breaking rebel crew was pretty damn lame. After getting away from the stupid sex crap they go right back to it. I thought the cliff hanger was pretty damn weak after last seasons. Anyone who did not see it coming 500 miles away was a sleep. Just a shame the season had to end on such a low note. Anyone who thought the almost rape was intense does not watch enough of the FX shows Nip and tuck,the shield and rescue me.


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Interesting that there are people that didn't like the music in this episode. The scored scene I didn't like was the opening sequence though. The music to me just didn't fit what was going on at all. It sounded more like porn music to me. 

When I first saw Gina in the cell, I thought her arms were cut off (this may have been said by others earlier in the thread but my eyes are too tired to read every word..sorry!).

Ensign Ro's hair looked like a wig to me in this episode. 

Still LOVING this show...another awesome episode. I am still in shock that I feel sorry for a few Cylons.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

atrac said:


> When I first saw Gina in the cell, I thought her arms were cut off (this may have been said by others earlier in the thread but my eyes are too tired to read every word..sorry!).


YES! so did I...I didn't want to be the first to mention it...I was worried that I was just a sick person...until they showed her from the back, I was POSITIVE they had cut her arms off...it really made me sick...

the actress is also very skinny which added to the "holocaust" look...I'm not usually affected by these things (I can easily remind myself that it's not real)...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrpantstm said:


> I found this interesting too. Either the cylon link isn't powerful enough to communicate from the Pegasus or maybe she's more linked to Baltar than we think.


...except Balthar's Six isn't a physical Cylon; she's in his head. She probably doesn't have the link.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

EchoBravo said:


> Final Note: Is Michelle Forbes pregnant? She looked puffy on BSG. On ST: TNG she was, in Capt. Picard's words, "looking fit." Not saying she looked bad or anything, just definitely different. *Even in 24, she looked really thin.*


Thank you! I couldn't figure out where I knew her from. She was some sort of aide to Pres. Palmer in the second season of 24.


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## emandbri (Jul 5, 2004)

atrac said:


> Ensign Ro's hair looked like a wig to me in this episode.


I don't think so, too many split ends.

I don't think she is preg, maybe she was just tired of dieting and working out 2- hours a day. The uniform also isn't the most flattering.

Emily


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

One interesting plot twist on Cain (if she were to remain on the show) could be her hooking up with Tom Zarek after losing her command. Some officers on Pegasus will stay loyal to Cain, plus Zarek will appoint Cain to command if he were to ever become the president.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Alvis said:


> One interesting plot twist on Cain (if she were to remain on the show) could be her hooking up with Tom Zarek after losing her command. Some officers on Pegasus will stay loyal to Cain, plus Zarek will appoint Cain to command if he were to ever become the president.


I can't see her remaining on the show, or at least in the fleet. She's a full-bore psychopath, who routinely abuses her authority to condone or commit murder, rape, and who knows what else. She's also obviously power-mad. I can't imagine anybody seeing her as anything but a threat to human survival, considering the other threat to human survival that requires a certain level of human unity...


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

net114 said:


> Ok, I loved the idea of Cain coming back....but Ensign Ro is now an Admiral?! She just didn't fit the rank...sorry, but even without the TNG background, they should have had someone much more in that role. In the original the fact that Cain was a legend, and the fact that both he and Adama were the same rank, made for a lot of conflict.


I think the opposite is true. She makes a convincing psychopath and if she were the same rank as Adama, he wouldn't be obligated put up with any of her crap. No crew transfers, no interrogation of Boomer, etc. In TOS Adama was always one leg up on Cain by virtue of being a member of the Council of 12.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ronsch said:


> I think the opposite is true. She makes a convincing psychopath and if she were the same rank as Adama, he wouldn't be obligated put up with any of her crap. No crew transfers, no interrogation of Boomer, etc. In TOS Adama was always one leg up on Cain by virtue of being a member of the Council of 12.


All true. On the other hand, Michelle Forbes is extremely young to be playing an admiral, which I think was the point of the poster you were responding to. She certainly handle the dramatic requirements of the role well, but her appeareance kind of yanks me out of the moment from time to time.

I mean hell, she's younger than I am! By close to a decade. I doubt if I had joined the Navy at 16 and been the best sailor ever I would be an admiral by now...


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## DLL66 (Oct 21, 2002)

vikingguy said:


> I personally hated the episode after the halfway point. The predictable raping and evil crew vs the rule breaking rebel crew was pretty damn lame. After getting away from the stupid sex crap they go right back to it. I thought the cliff hanger was pretty damn weak after last seasons. Anyone who did not see it coming 500 miles away was a sleep. Just a shame the season had to end on such a low note. Anyone who thought the almost rape was intense does not watch enough of the FX shows Nip and tuck,the shield and rescue me.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I can't see her remaining on the show, or at least in the fleet. She's a full-bore psychopath, who routinely abuses her authority to condone or commit murder, rape, and who knows what else. She's also obviously power-mad. I can't imagine anybody seeing her as anything but a threat to human survival, considering the other threat to human survival that requires a certain level of human unity...


where did you get all that?

all we have is one unsubstantiated story about her executing an officer who did not obey a direct order (field of battle and all that), and her condoning torture of a spylon (something even Adama has done)...where is the power-mad and psychopath stuff coming from?

as I've said before, someone looking on the outside of Adama's ship would see a crew that is undisciplined and in need of a major shakeup...

I'm not defending her, but I just don't see where she's all wrong (and mad), either...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I'm not defending her, but I just don't see where she's all wrong (and mad), either...


Well, for one thing she's trying to murder two of Adama's men to cover up a crime her people have committed...

For another, she thinks her little ship is The Fleet, not the group of ships led by the President...

The sheer glee her people take in the crimes they commit tells me that her ship has a much worse discipline problem than Galactica (obviously, their highly illegal and immoral actions are habitual and approved at the highest levels)...

And I have a very strong hunch that the story her XO told about the murder she committed (it's not an execution without a trial) was the sanitized version.


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## Rognish (May 17, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Did you learn as a child? DON'Y STICK A FORK IN THE TOASTER!!!


roflol

great ep Best show on sci-fi :up:


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## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

Great episode. There's no reason why the Pegasus can't be kept around for awhile, although the power-struggle between Cain and Adama will have to be resolved asap.

Watching the Boomer torture scene, made me cringe for ever having typed "bondage Boomer" on these boards. I like a show that can make me feel uncomfortable about myself...

I wonder what that giant Cylon ship is for?


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

questfortruth said:


> I wonder what that giant Cylon ship is for?


Don't know, but I have a feeling the Pegasus is going to go "boom" trying to take it down.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

The only way I see this episode being tied up is an attack from the Cylons. The ships heading to Galatica are told to change heading, as a Cylon attack is underway.
Opening scene starts with a "contact" being sited on their screens. Immediately everyone goes into DEFEND THE FLEET mode. Everyone forgets about the marines coming to board the Peagsus. 
No way can the writers let the Peg Vipers fire on the Galatica. It would be just to much for the morale of the fleet. 
Best thing now is to pull the fleet together with a giant cylon battle.


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## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this before: The implication that the Blackbird does indeed have an FTL drive. There's no other possible way it would get to where the Cylon mystery ship is to do the recon run. I'm betting that it's already out there making its observations and that it'll return very near the beginning of the continuation. It'll return before Apollo and the CAG leave because their plan of using the Raptor to make observations was flawed as so bluntly pointed out by Starbuck in the briefing. (Have you ever heard anyone say that they'll make their FTL jump in 10 minutes before? They usually just go. I don't think that's a coincidence.) Either that or the Raptor will leave before the Blackbird returns with no intel because they couldn't get close enough to the Cylons...

I think the Pegasus _has_ been fighting Cylons, but only very small groups of them at a time. For all her bluster I don't think Caine has the stones to attack a basestar or anything else that could effectively fight back. Remember, bullies only pick on weaker targets. I'll bet all those kills marked on the Vipers were racked up 3 or 4 at a time. Remember how they said they were expecting to find a small communications outpost instead of the Galactica?

The way I see this shaking out is that the already reluctant crew of the Pegasus under the lead of the XO will mutiny against Caine when she leaves or is planning to leave the Galactica at a critical moment in a battle with the Cylons. As an act of contrition for putting them in that situation (Caine will order some foolhardy attack) they'll directly attack the mystery ship to allow the Galactica to escape/survive. A chunk of Pegasus' crew will end up on the Galactica this way.


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## Thaed (Nov 25, 2003)

Ian said:


> Damn awesome ep...
> Here's my guess for part 2:
> Just as the two sets of alert fighters are about to start firing, the Cylon fleet that's been tracking Galactica will jump in.
> Cain and Adama will (reluctantly) agree to postpone blasting each other out of space to face the common threat, and both battlestars and their ships will begin to defend themselves against the Cylons.
> ...


This is almost certainly how the next season will begin. Good work! :up:


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Thaed said:


> This is almost certainly how the next season will begin. Good work! :up:


Well, that's a little premature--we still have 11 or so episodes to go this season!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Add me to the list of people who found the music in the opening scene distracting. It did not fit the show at all.

I thought it was a great episode. It's always good to see Sci-Fi alums like Forbes and Spence showing up on new shows. I hope that Spence stays on. I loved the twist of making Cain an admiral, completely changing the balance of power that Rosslyn and Adama had established.

I missed where we learned that Six's name was Gina... was that actually in the episode or was it only in the podcast? I was hoping the prisoner would be a new model Cylon we hadn't seen before, but since we just had a revelation a couple episodes ago, it's too soon to meet a new one.

... and to those who are complaining that this season finale did not live up to the last season finale where Adama was shot, repeat after me... *"It is not the season finale."*


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## theharleyman (Dec 26, 2001)

Jeeters said:


> LOL


She should have worn her ear ring! 

EDIT - Referring to Ensign Ro


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> I missed where we learned that Six's name was Gina... was that actually in the episode or was it only in the podcast? I was hoping the prisoner would be a new model Cylon we hadn't seen before, but since we just had a revelation a couple episodes ago, it's too soon to meet a new one.


It was just the podcast, I believe. It was not said in the episode. I was also hoping that it was a new spylon but also thought it was too soon. Primarily because of something else I heard about how the spylons will be revealed:



Spoiler



the producers plan to only reveal two spylons per season. Since we already learned about Simon and D'anna Biers I don't think there will be a new one for a while. It also wasn't clear to me whether seasons 2a and 2b are considered separate or not - if they where only going to reveal 2 spylons over the twenty episodes of 2a-2b, why do them both in the first half? I think we will see 2 more spylons in the next 10 episodes


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

i wonder if they can re-run the mini and the 1st season before the start of season 2 part 2


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

On the podcast, Moore called it Season 2A and 2B.


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## Stainless Steele (Feb 2, 2004)

HOLY COW!!!!! How awesome was this episode!??!?! WOW This is awesome SciFi!! I HATE having to wait till January!


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I'm still sticking to my hunch that the president will step in and relieve Caine...I'll also add my prediction that the Pegasus will go out in a blaze of glory taking out this big cylon ship that they are now "hunting".....


I have to agree here.

It will probably be just like Ian said on the first page but instead of jumping away Admiral Cain will regain her honor by defending the fleet and taking out the new Cylon ship and be destroyed.

We all know Pegasus can't possibly stay around for very much longer. We will probably get some new crew and additional Vipers in the end as well.

Rob


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Wow! What a great episode! Almost as good a cliffhanger as last "season." Too much to talk about. I gotta go back and read this thread tomorrow. For now, I don't think the admiral is a spylon, and I bet Adama ahs a trick up his sleeve. Something tells me he gave a nuke to another ship a while ago.


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## robpickles (May 19, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And I have a very strong hunch that the story her XO told about the murder she committed (it's not an execution without a trial) was the sanitized version.


I also have to agree that the story is true. The Pegasus' XO only said he was kidding after Tigh reacted weirdly. He saw he wasn't happy with the story and then said it was a joke to cover it up.

Rob


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## cynthia (Apr 21, 2002)

I had no idea it was a cliffhanger until January until I read this thread! I was wondering why there weren't any "scenes from the next..." for the continuation.

It was very cool to watch the start of season 2 until now immediately after watching season 1 (they had repeated them). I hadn't watched the mini-series, unfortunately, until recently. That certainly answered a lot of questions...

I always find it odd that people don't react too freaked out by Baltar talking to himself. They do say he's "odd" but he gets very animated to "himself" in public! It would make me nervous if that were the VP...


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## Kamakzie (Jan 8, 2004)

These seasons are WAY to short IMHO..


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

After watching this episode, and thinking about it a bit, I think that the 6 in Baltar's head might really be a psychological concoction. Here's my reason why:

Through their attack, the real cylons have committed (essentionally) genocide. On Caprica, they're holding women against their will as living, but imprisoned, incubators. The emotional reaction that 6 had seems inconsistent with commision of those acts.
Baltar tells head 6 that it would be better if she left: I wonder if head 6 is a representation of his emotions, and her reaction was really Baltar's reaction.
She told him that she was only a figment of his imagination. While it was hinted that it wasn't true, as I recall it was left unresolved.
Of course, there's one big problem with this: 6 predicted a shared pregnancy between humans and cylons and one showed up.

Other thoughts:
If Adama ever gets to see prisoner 6, he'll be able to verify the claims made by Balter last season, that anyone who looks like that is a cylon, including the woman who accused Baltar of collusion with the cylons, and subsequently disappeared.
Baltar should be very paranoid. It's possible that prisoner 6 will wake up and know him, which would strengthen the claims that disappearing 6 made.
Is it possible that disappearing 6 and prisoner 6 are the exact same character? E.g. that after she disappeared, she found the pegasus and they eventually figured out she was a cylon?
_Edit: added the last bullet point
Edit: fixed last bullet point s/head 6/prisoner6_


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Okay, great episode! Here are my $50 predictions...

1. The Pegasus will not stay with the fleet. It'll either a) be destroyed, which I personally doubt will happen given the effect it would have on fleet morale, or b) decide that they don't want to play under Adama/Rosalyn's rules, and so leave. I don't see it staying in the fleet for any length of time - it would diminish the desperate feeling of the fleet running for its life as well as the ongoing storyline of the characters coping with the chronic stress of always being on the job.

2. Before it goes away, there will have to be a major transfer of characters - at least the Galactica characters. But how about others on the Pegasus? Like the civilian engineer who I think is on Galactica? Or Six? Now that would be a hot time in the brig having Six arguing with Sharon.

3. Cain - will she die or not? I tend to vote no, and also vote no to the idea that her crew will mutiny. Although I'd like to see it, it appears a bit too obvious. I think more likely, Adama checkmates her in another fashion (perhaps following a Cylon attack) and rather than submit, she leaves.

Yep, Cain is a major nutjob, clearly responding to pressure of the war in the SAME way as Tigh did, but in an even more exaggerated fashion - exert control over everything, and lock up (or shoot) those who disagree.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

It might be easier to call the person in Baltar's head Six and the blonde prisoner on Pegasus Shelley.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> It might be easier to call the person in Baltar's head Six and the blonde prisoner on Pegasus Shelley.


...although that downplays the fact that they are effectively the same person...

Hence, Caprica Boomer, Bondage Boomer, Deathstar Of Naked Boomers, etc.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...although that downplays the fact that they are effectively the same person...
> 
> Hence, Caprica Boomer, Bondage Boomer, Deathstar Of Naked Boomers, etc.


But they are all Boomers. Six told Baltar she was the sixth model. However, the physical manifestation of her introduced herself as Shelley Godfrey.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

IndyJones1023 said:


> It might be easier to call the person in Baltar's head Six and the blonde prisoner on Pegasus Shelley.


Why Shelley?? Why not, then, Bob?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> Why Shelley?? Why not, then, Bob?


Because...



IndyJones1023 said:


> ...the physical manifestation of her introduced herself as Shelley Godfrey.


In the episode "Six Degrees of Separation."


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Big_Daddy said:


> Yep, Cain is a major nutjob, clearly responding to pressure of the war in the SAME way as Tigh did, but in an even more exaggerated fashion - exert control over everything, and lock up (or shoot) those who disagree.


Cain is nothing like indecisive Tigh. The moment Tigh didn't give the order to shoot down the raptor carrying the president and Apollo was when he lost complete command. Up until then officers like Gaeta were loyal to the chain of command. Tigh ended up alienating both the president's supporters and his main supporters: the hardcore military personnel.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Alvis said:


> Cain is nothing like indecisive Tigh. The moment Tigh didn't give the order to shoot down the raptor carrying the president and Apollo was when he lost complete command. Up until then officers like Gaeta were loyal to the chain of command. Tigh ended up alienating both the president's supporters and his main supporters: the hardcore military personnel.


Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough. I didn't mean to imply that Tigh = Cain. It was more the idea that when put under the stress they've experienced, both had a tendency to "clamp down" and control those around them. Tigh clearly had a better idea of what the limits were (he didn't shoot down the shuttle, and actually get upset with the accidental killing of civilians) while Cain took this to an extreme and allegedly steamrolls over anyone challenging her authority.

I think this is important given Tigh's storyline earlier this season, and Adama's softer glove approach (at least this season) - give people some leeway UNLESS they're impacting fleet safety. Hence he allowed the Chief's project to go forward (as long as it didn't impact the Chief's job). One could argue he took a harder approach with Rosalyn last season, but her actions impacted fleet safety AND he appears to have mellowed since getting shot, as we saw when he went to Kobol to make amends.

EDIT: And I'm not sure that the failure to shoot down the shuttle caused Tigh to lose the support of the hardcore military personnel. I think they disagreed where Tigh was heading, and so opposed him, but were conflicted by their feelings vs. their military duty. This was the difference between the Galactica personnel, who had been guarding the civilian fleet, and the Pegasus crew who were essentially all military personnel. Oh, and that the Galactica fleet didn't worry about getting shot by their superior officers, too.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Big_Daddy said:


> Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough. I didn't mean to imply that Tigh = Cain. It was more the idea that when put under the stress they've experienced, both had a tendency to "clamp down" and control those around them. Tigh clearly had a better idea of what the limits were (he didn't shoot down the shuttle, and actually get upset with the accidental killing of civilians) while Cain took this to an extreme and allegedly steamrolls over anyone challenging her authority.


I think they're different in that Tigh's attempts to clamp down were born out of desperation, whereas Cain was probably always that way (but reined in by peace-time military standards). Cain strikes me as an egotistical power-freak, who believes in military discipline above all else (especially when she's giving the orders). As gruff as Tigh is, I don't think he's as much of a hardliners philosohpically; he just cracks down as a means of (over)compensating for his inherent indecisiveness and lack of self-discipline.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, for one thing she's trying to murder two of Adama's men to cover up a crime her people have committed...
> 
> For another, she thinks her little ship is The Fleet, not the group of ships led by the President...
> 
> ...


gee...let me surprise you by disagreeing! 

She is NOT trying to murder two of Adama's people. Two of Adama's people murdered an officer (or enlisted man, whatever). She is perfectly within her power (and not an unreasonable conclusion) to find them guilty.

Her people do not commit crimes, they kill cylons (Adama does that) and they torture cylons (Adama does that).

I'm not denying the XO's story...I'm still saying that sort of thing happens on the battlefield. There is no time for trial in a battle. This is not an abnormal thing (by itself). And I'm also saying that -- as of right now -- it's an unsubstantiated story that even the one that told it recanted it...

I'm not disagreeing that she's power mad or crazy...I'm just saying there is not enough evidence to make that statement without any qualifications...


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

BTW, I had no problem with them "pressing civilians into service". Unlike the BSG fleet, the military ship Pegasus was the _only_ surviving ship in their area; if they had a few civilians on board, what _else_ were they going to do with them? Let them lounge around while others on the same ship fought and died?


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> It might be easier to call the person in Baltar's head Six and the blonde prisoner on Pegasus Shelley.


Is it known that Shelley Godfrey is in fact the cylon on the pegasus? I had assumed that Shelley and prisoner 6 were seperate copies. I'm speculating that they're not. Is my speculation confirmed in the last episode and I just missed it?


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

mjh said:


> Is it known that Shelley Godfrey is in fact the cylon on the pegasus? I had assumed that Shelley and prisoner 6 were seperate copies. I'm speculating that they're not. Is my speculation confirmed in the last episode and I just missed it?


Stop worrying about copies; the fact is that every Six out there probably has some degree of shared memory with the others, as evidenced by the situation with Caprica Boomer. BTW, I think Shelley Godfrey was just the alias she was using in the fleet; there's no reason to assume that that was her "true" name, or even the same one that she used on Caprica before the attack.


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Am I the only one who feel Cain isn't mad with power? She's classic type A personality and people like her rise through ranks by taking huge risks. You don't become an admiral by being a good paper pusher. I can easily picture Starbuck acting just like Cain.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Stop worrying about copies; the fact is that every Six out there probably has some degree of shared memory with the others, as evidenced by the situation with Caprica Boomer. BTW, I think Shelley Godfrey was just the alias she was using in the fleet; there's no reason to assume that that was her "true" name, or even the same one that she used on Caprica before the attack.


All true, I'm just pitching it out there for clarity. In Baltar's head version: Six. Real physical versions: Shelley.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> I think they're different in that Tigh's attempts to clamp down were born out of desperation, whereas Cain was probably always that way (but reined in by peace-time military standards). Cain strikes me as an egotistical power-freak, who believes in military discipline above all else (especially when she's giving the orders). As gruff as Tigh is, I don't think he's as much of a hardliners philosohpically; he just cracks down as a means of (over)compensating for his inherent indecisiveness and lack of self-discipline.


I would tend to agree with this....with the exception that Cain's strict adherence to miilitary discipline was strengthened to the point of being unreasonable given her own feelings of desperation.

If we assume her story of escaping the Colonial station was generally accurate, you can bet she was feeling pretty desperate. And still feels desperate. And angry. And sad. And all the other things that goes along with genocide of your people...or so I would assume.

Maybe if she was shot and survived, she'd develop a more reasonable outlook.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Alvis said:


> Am I the only one who feel Cain isn't mad with power? She's classic type A personality and people like her rise through ranks by taking huge risks. You don't become an admiral by being a good paper pusher.


True, and it could be just those hard-hitting qualities that got her her rank (though I still don't believe her as an Admiral at her apparent age...). I also think that a lot of the harsh actions they have taken are realistic and understandable (though not excusable) for a purely military group that's been fighting on its own for a long time. Unlike Galactica/Adama, they haven't been responsible for a group of civilians (and a president) who are watching and expecting more "civilized" responses.

The only thing that really seems beyond the pale is the (apparent) summary execution of the XO. Even if she had had him arrested and executed him later it might have been okay, but just gunning down an officer on the bridge is going too far. If nothing else, it's a breach of the very military order & discipline that she's trying to enforce.



> I can easily picture Starbuck acting just like Cain.


Well I can't, at least not that last part above. She'd make the hard decisions, but she wouldn't murder a subordinate in cold blood...


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

mjh said:


> After watching this episode, and thinking about it a bit, I think that the 6 in Baltar's head might really be a psychological concoction. Here's my reason why:
> 
> Through their attack, the real cylons have committed (essentionally) genocide. On Caprica, they're holding women against their will as living, but imprisoned, incubators. The emotional reaction that 6 had seems inconsistent with commision of those acts.
> Baltar tells head 6 that it would be better if she left: I wonder if head 6 is a representation of his emotions, and her reaction was really Baltar's reaction.
> ...


And 6 told him who the Cylon was during the Mini. There was no way Baltar could have known that subconsciously.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

7thton said:


> And 6 told him who the Cylon was during the Mini. There was no way Baltar could have known that subconsciously.


Unless he just made a lucky guess, which is the way I interpretted it. At the same time, she claimed she didn't know what the device was, even though the real Six carried one around in her briefcase...


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

dcheesi said:


> Unless he just made a lucky guess, which is the way I interpretted it. At the same time, she claimed she didn't know what the device was, even though the real Six carried one around in her briefcase...


Lucky guess? I think that's too much of a long shot for me to buy. But clearly, there are still some clarifications to make regarding Baltar and Six...hopefully those will be made sooner than later.

Can you remind me about "the device"?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

dcheesi said:


> Stop worrying about copies; the fact is that every Six out there probably has some degree of shared memory with the others, as evidenced by the situation with Caprica Boomer.


I don't believe that there's any evidence that memory is shared prior to the Cylon's death. In fact, during the miniseries, wasn't there a Cylon who wanted to die just so his copies could get his memory?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

7thton said:


> Lucky guess? I think that's too much of a long shot for me to buy. But clearly, there are still some clarifications to make regarding Baltar and Six...hopefully those will be made sooner than later.
> 
> Can you remind me about "the device"?


it was a round object that Baltar found attached to the bridge of Galactica...Six Alerted Baltar to it and he remembered her carrying one just like it when she was in his house before the invasion...at least one of them was found to be a comm device...Boomer used it to infiltrate the base star (since the base star would think it's friendly) and blow it up...


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> I don't believe that there's any evidence that memory is shared prior to the Cylon's death. In fact, during the miniseries, wasn't there a Cylon who wanted to die just so his copies could get his memory?


It's been established that Caprica Boomer remembers Galactica Boomer's life, not only up to the point of her appearance to Helo on Caprica, but even after that. So it's clear that they _do_ share memories on a regular basis. (OTOH, it appears that Caprica Boomer has stopped linking with the others now that she's gone "renegade".)

The whole death thing is related to the fact that the cylons themselves believe in individual "souls" and hence it's important to them to transfer their full consciousness at that point so that their particular soul will continue on. However that doesn't mean that there's any object reality to that. In any case, the Six in Gaius' head couldn't logically identify with the prisoner to that extent, since two copies can't share the same soul even if they have the same memories (or else they wouldn't be worried about the "death" thing in the first place). All IMHO, of course.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

7thton said:


> Lucky guess? I think that's too much of a long shot for me to buy. But clearly, there are still some clarifications to make regarding Baltar and Six...hopefully those will be made sooner than later.
> 
> Can you remind me about "the device"?


The device in CIC; it was the whole reason Baltar had to guess (ie. make up) a cylon agent to implicate. He just picked the guy who looked out of place in the CIC at that moment (which BTW narrows down the choices and actually makes it a good guess).


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## BenJr06 (Aug 2, 2005)

Whew.

Finally read all the posts.

Yes, I think Admiral Cain shot her XO. 

Starbuck did go off on the recon mission but she wasn't tailing Apollo. She stated that the best way to get pics was to use the blackbird, so I think she'll go directly into view (stealthed of course) to get her pics while Apollo and that other Captain will go behind the moon like they stated in the briefing.

I do agree that I think the Cylons will attack right before this civil war starts which will give the marines time to continue to the ship to get baltar, our new avionics guy, chief, and helo. I don't think the tortured Six is going to make it to Galactica. I think she will help get gaius and the other crew off pegasus however.

(hypothesis) Looks like Galactica will be getting some new crew members(capt taylor and avionics guy) once this thing pans out with pegasus either jumping again or being blown up in a huge battle to kill that big unknown ship.

Am I the only one that noticed that Starbuck looked that guy up and down twice before he even hit the deck? She's a sex-freak. 

I think Xena-style Lucy Lawless would have made a better Admiral than the current one.

Can't wait until January!


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

Anubys said:


> it was a round object that Baltar found attached to the bridge of Galactica...Six Alerted Baltar to it and he remembered her carrying one just like it when she was in his house before the invasion...at least one of them was found to be a comm device...Boomer used it to infiltrate the base star (since the base star would think it's friendly) and blow it up...


Thanks...I had forgot the part about her having one prior to invasion.


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

One thing that has been nagging me is why did Pegasus 6 allow herself to be abused? I thought all human model cylons possessed superhuman strength and speed.

edit: Or she could have terminated herself. Do they even fear death?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> All true, I'm just pitching it out there for clarity. In Baltar's head version: Six. Real physical versions: Shelley.


What about Gina? Apparently that's her name according to the podcast.


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> It might be easier to call the person in Baltar's head Six and the blonde prisoner on Pegasus Shelley.


Per the latest podcast, the prisoner Six's name is "Gina".

--------------
And *PJO1966*'s post wasn't there when I started reading this... :smack:


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Odd. I'm not a podcaster, so I didn't know that.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

But in the podcast, they call her Gina.

yeah...just being a wisenheimer...


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Odd. I'm not a podcaster, so I didn't know that.


But didja read this thread? It's been mentioned a few times.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> But didja read this thread? It's been mentioned a few times.


Nope, too much to read.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Nope, too much to read.


At last...an honest poster!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Nope, too much to read.


Unacceptable!! You march right up to your room, young man and read that thread!


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## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

zalusky said:


> So this seems to be the first time Gaius talks about six/shelly out loud. Do you think what he was saying that she is just a figment is true because he did love her? They havent really explained what happened in the beginning when she protected him during the original attack.


You mean when she and he were both vaporized in that blast and had their conciousness uploaded into their replacements?

Baltar is a Cylon and does not know it.  There's a reason only he can see her - since Cylon V.D. does not sound all that plausible. What I was wondering is whether the Gina in the episode where Baltar was "set up" was a real Gina or if she was a projection into the crew's minds in the same way as a non-Cylon Baltar.

My bets are that the Pegasus does a run against the "unknown" large Cylon ship and ends up saving the day. The Pegasus suddenly "disappears" during the big explosion.


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## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

Tangent said:


> The way I see this shaking out is that the already reluctant crew of the Pegasus under the lead of the XO will mutiny against Caine


in Pegasus, Part 2: aka "The Caine Mutiny".


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## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

mjh said:


> Other thoughts:
> If Adama ever gets to see prisoner 6, he'll be able to verify the claims made by Balter last season, that anyone who looks like that is a cylon, including the woman who accused Baltar of collusion with the cylons, and subsequently disappeared.
> Baltar should be very paranoid. It's possible that prisoner 6 will wake up and know him, which would strengthen the claims that disappearing 6 made.
> Is it possible that disappearing 6 and prisoner 6 are the exact same character? E.g. that after she disappeared, she found the pegasus and they eventually figured out she was a cylon?


Dunno. I have my own theories, but the part that shocked me the most and made me rethink them was when 6 and Baltar were going to see the new prisoner, 6 told Baltar something like: "I wonder who we will see? A familiar face, or someone new?"

Then her reaction when she saw who it really was. From what I can tell 6 had no idea who it was, and certainly didn't expect (or want) it to be her. What is also odd is that if they are essentially immortal by uploading their experiences, why is she so attached with her "other self"? Boomer already showed that one version of her is pretty much like the others.

You know, right about now would be a great time for a political struggle at Sci-Fi and have the show canned with these things unresolved. It would get me royally P.O.'d like when Fox killed "Space Above and Beyond" and burned the sets. Then they left the cliffhanger, well, a cliffhanger.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

If spylons can upload their knowledge/experiences into other models, wouldn't the psychological damage that was inflicted upon "Gina" be the only way to render that information useless. 

At this point, wouldn't the recipient of Gina's experiences be just as messed up as Gina is?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

why are you assuming that Gina is mentally stressed? she may suffer from physical abuse, but we have no way of knowing that they can't simply erase memories that they find problematic...you're projecting human emotions into her...


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## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

rworne said:


> You know, right about now would be a great time for a political struggle at Sci-Fi and have the show canned with these things unresolved. It would get me royally P.O.'d like when Fox killed "Space Above and Beyond" and burned the sets. Then they left the cliffhanger, well, a cliffhanger.


{sharp intake of breath} BITE YOUR TONGUE!!! Don't say that. Don't even THINK that.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I don't think Admiral Ro is just somebody who loves military discipline. I thnk she's a Lt. William Calley-type latent psychopath, whose psychopathic tendancies were given free reign by being placed in a perceived lawless state.

And I think Helo and Chief's defense of the rape victim were utterly justified; the death was clearly accidental; and the trial was clearly rigged in order to cover up the attempted rape. Ro doesn't give a s$#! about justice; she's covering up her own misdeeds. She realizes (on some level) that she is no longer the law, and she is desperately afraid of being held accountable for her actions. The judicial murder of Helo and the Chief will at least cover up the crimes her people committed on Galactica, where she is most likely to be held accountable.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm going to hold with the 'a dream' explanation since Adama said it was! The large Cylon ship is a mind-eff projector that does on a large scale what they've been doing all along with VP Dr. Baltar. 

The large Cylon ship and the Pegasus will disappear at the same time.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think Admiral Ro is just somebody who loves military discipline. I thnk she's a Lt. William Calley-type latent psychopath, whose psychopathic tendancies were given free reign by being placed in a perceived lawless state.
> 
> And I think Helo and Chief's defense of the rape victim were utterly justified; the death was clearly accidental; and the trial was clearly rigged in order to cover up the attempted rape. Ro doesn't give a s$#! about justice; she's covering up her own misdeeds. She realizes (on some level) that she is no longer the law, and she is desperately afraid of being held accountable for her actions. The judicial murder of Helo and the Chief will at least cover up the crimes her people committed on Galactica, where she is most likely to be held accountable.


I'm not so sure about your first paragraph, but completely agree with the second. Ro doesn't care about justice - just being obeyed. Helo and Chief went against her wishes, and THAT is why she wants them dead. She will not tolerate disobedience. The fact the interrogator died is purely secondary - I suspect the results would have been the same even if the interrogator had not died.

Sigh...it's going to be a long 3 months. At least I have Lost.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think Admiral Ro is just somebody who loves military discipline. I thnk she's a Lt. William Calley-type latent psychopath, whose psychopathic tendancies were given free reign by being placed in a perceived lawless state.
> 
> And I think Helo and Chief's defense of the rape victim were utterly justified; the death was clearly accidental; and the trial was clearly rigged in order to cover up the attempted rape. Ro doesn't give a s$#! about justice; she's covering up her own misdeeds. She realizes (on some level) that she is no longer the law, and she is desperately afraid of being held accountable for her actions. The judicial murder of Helo and the Chief will at least cover up the crimes her people committed on Galactica, where she is most likely to be held accountable.


Agree that Adm Ro is a sociopathic personality and like your Calley analogy, a good one. Where I question your position is that the defense of the rape victim is justified. In BSG world Caprica Boomah is just a toaster. Kill a human (however dispicable) to stop abuse of a machine?

And yah, I know that some segment of the BSG world, a growing segment, do not regard Spylons as toasters. This whole quandry makes the series interesting.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

philw1776 said:


> Agree that Adm Ro is a sociopathic personality and like your Calley analogy, a good one. Where I question your position is that the defense of the rape victim is justified. In BSG world Caprica Boomah is just a toaster. Kill a human (however dispicable) to stop abuse of a machine?
> 
> And yah, I know that some segment of the BSG world, a growing segment, do not regard Spylons as toasters. This whole quandry makes the series interesting.


Even if the spylon was considered merely a machine, Helo & Chief, having no direct knowledge of the interegators orders, could simply argue that they were attempting to preserve what had turned out to be a valuable asset to the fleet.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

And the indisputable fact is that the Cylons are medically indistiguishable from humans. Calling them machines is pure bigotry. And I'm pretty sure that's the producers' intent--there's been a growing awareness among some characters in the show (especially Helo and the Chief, but also Adama and others) that despite their origins and enemy status, these are indeed human beings. It's pretty clear to me that the Spylons are a metaphor for the human tendancy to dehumanize enemies (hence my earlier My Lai allusion). And I suspect that beginning to see the Spylons as human--both by some humans and by the Spylons themselves--is going to play a very large role in the long-term development of the show. I wonder if Admiral Ro's horrific abuse of her prisoners (and her attempt to do the same to Galactica's prisoner) will help push this development into high gear..?


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Rob is a toaster lover! Out the airlock with him!


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Rob is a toaster lover! Out the airlock with him!


That's your solution for everything.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Martin, too!


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Doh!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

(Not really a spoiler, just an editing choice, but I'll spoiler it anyway.)

BTW, from the podcast, the scene with Boomer in the brig...


Spoiler



They filmed it 2 ways. The way it was shown, and a version where Helo and Tyrol get there a bit later, interrupting rather than preventing the act.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

hefe said:


> (Not really a spoiler, just an editing choice, but I'll spoiler it anyway.)
> 
> BTW, from the podcast, the scene with Boomer in the brig...
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I wonder why they chose the one they did.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Hmmm, I wonder why they chose the one they did.


I'm not sure, but my wife almost stopped watching the series for that scene as it was - much less if it had been allowed to progress a bit farther.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Big_Daddy said:


> I'm not sure, but my wife almost stopped watching the series for that scene as it was - much less if it had been allowed to progress a bit farther.


I think that's pretty much it. They knew they were pushing it, and didn't need to make it even more shocking lest they turn people off completely.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the indisputable fact is that the Cylons are medically indistiguishable from humans. Calling them machines is pure bigotry. And I'm pretty sure that's the producers' intent--there's been a growing awareness among some characters in the show (especially Helo and the Chief, but also Adama and others) that despite their origins and enemy status, these are indeed human beings. It's pretty clear to me that the Spylons are a metaphor for the human tendancy to dehumanize enemies (hence my earlier My Lai allusion). And I suspect that beginning to see the Spylons as human--both by some humans and by the Spylons themselves--is going to play a very large role in the long-term development of the show. I wonder if Admiral Ro's horrific abuse of her prisoners (and her attempt to do the same to Galactica's prisoner) will help push this development into high gear..?


but that is exactly the point...let's just look at recent history for a minute...two white boys are in love with a black slave 200 years ago...they kill her "owner" before he gets to rape her...would it be categorized as "justifiable" homicide?

this is exactly the analogy the producer is going for...99% of the population of the BSG world would not understand killing a human to save a cylon...even from rape...the death sentence would be handed down by ANY judge on that world...there would be RIOTS if any other verdict were handed down...


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the indisputable fact is that the Cylons are medically indistiguishable from humans.


I don't see how that's possible, especially considering that Sharon had to stick that wire into her hand/arm. That suggests that there's some kind of connection there or transceiver or something. I just don't see how that could be invisible to X-rays or whatever.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But Spylons are not legally slaves. They have not had their basic human rights taken away from them (as American slaves did), so there is no legal foundation for allowing the rape of prisoners, and probably intense legal foundation for barring it.

Just because they think they're right doesn't mean they are. And I think William Calley, who committed war crimes even though he thought he was right because he didn't see his enemies as human, is a much closer analogy than ante-bellum slavery.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I think the Pegasus is one of the modern ships, so that would explain the differences...
> 
> I also make the parallel to cylons and slaves...it was perfectly normal to rape a slave since they were not considered "human"
> 
> finally, I'm a little disappointed...the solution to this stand-off is pretty easy and obvious: the president will relieve the Admiral and promote Adama to take over the entire fleet...a little tense moments as the Admiral orders her people around but then they stand their ground and not obey her...I hope the writers are not this predictable!


OH, I bet this does happen, but the Admiral will unhinge and try to have things her way and likely commit suicide. How she does this will be revealed later.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They have not had their basic human rights taken away from them (as American slaves did), so there is no legal foundation for allowing the rape of prisoners, and probably intense legal foundation for barring it.


What are you talking about?

Slaves didn't have human rights "taken away". They weren't granted those rights to begin with. Neither were Cylons.

Imagine for a moment that instead of a human-looking Cylon, it was a toaster (metalic Cylon) in the cell. Would anyone think that the toaster should have "human" rights? No, of course not.

If someone wanted to bend the toaster over the back of the cell and...well...would anyone object in terms of "human rights"? Or even call it "rape"?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> Slaves didn't have human rights "taken away". They weren't granted those rights to begin with. Neither were Cylons.


There was an extensive body of law defining exactly what slaves were (i.e., not legally human, except when counting population for political apportionment, in which case they counted as a fraction of a human). I am willing to bet that there is no law whatsoever that addresses the legal status of Spylons.

There are people today who think that black people are not real humans. Their opinions hold no legal weight. The Nazis did not believe the Jews were fully human. Their opinions did not prevent them from being war criminals. The opinions of the bigots who think that Spylons are not human also hold no legal weight.


----------



## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> There was an extensive body of law defining exactly what slaves were (i.e., not legally human, except when counting population for political apportionment, in which case they counted as a fraction of a human). I am willing to bet that there is no law whatsoever that addresses the legal status of Spylons.


This would have to be true. No one was aware of the Spylons until after the attack. That's the reason behind all the skullduggery keeping the info from the fleet.

Their "status" was never addressed. The solution was to simply shoot them or put them out the airlock whenever they were uncovered.


----------



## betamax (Mar 5, 2002)

Alvis said:


> One thing that has been nagging me is why did Pegasus 6 allow herself to be abused?


They did tell Gaius that she killed 7 men.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

To me the issue is really with the two individuals who got involved. While other members of the Galactica crew may have been disgusted by the behavior of the Pegasus crew, only two where inspired to immediate action. Their motives are suspect.

The treatment Boomer was getting was not worthy of any human or animal (or fruit and veggie for that matter  ), but vigilante justice is never justified, and definitely not in this case. Two wrongs do not make a right. They should be punished; but to punish two skilled individuals that are needed with the death penalty serves no one. 

This could all have been avoided if they had BLOWN THAT TOASTER OUT THE AIRLOCK WEEKS AGO!!! (and yes, that is more humane than rape)

Gee, what a coincidence that Pegasus has a Cylon prisoner that they are getting intel from. I like how both crews think that they are "getting intel" - they are being manipulated. That's what Spylons do; whether they know it or not. They are working off a Cylon agenda and should be identified and eliminated as soon as possible. Only when humanity can be certain that there are no Cylons among them can they consider heading for Earth or a counter-attack. Anyone who's gotten attached (Helo and Chief) should be regulated to the least classified jobs available and should be watched.

I know it sounds harsh (Draconian even), but they need to sever all contact with the Cylons; if only to know that any plan they come up with is really their own.


----------



## lord-dogbert (Jan 31, 2005)

DLL66 said:


> Might be a guy!!


The way they swap sexes on this show, I agree.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> The treatment Boomer was getting was not worthy of any human or animal (or fruit and veggie for that matter  ), but vigilante justice is never justified, and definitely not in this case. Two wrongs do not make a right. They should be punished; but to punish two skilled individuals that are needed with the death penalty serves no one.


It's not vigilante justice, it's their legal and moral obligation to stop a crime that is being committed. In our world, I'm pretty sure that if they had NOT intervened, they would be as culpable in the crime as the actual perpetrators.

And I say again, Admiral Ro's death sentence has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with covering up the crime. That is not an execution; that is judicial murder.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not vigilante justice, it's their legal and moral obligation to stop a crime that is being committed.


What crime?

If Boomer were human, it would be rape. If she were an animal it would be animal cruelty or something like that.

There is no law dealing with what is and is not legal treatment for human-looking Cylons.

No law means that it was not a crime.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The opinions of the bigots who think that Spylons are not human also hold no legal weight.


What about the metallic Cylons? Are they human, too?

Or is it only appearance that matters?


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> BSG now has 3 thumbs up on my Tivo instead of 2.


<british accent on>
My Tivo is hacked. It goes up to 11.
<british accent off>


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not vigilante justice, it's their legal and moral obligation to stop a crime that is being committed. In our world, I'm pretty sure that if they had NOT intervened, they would be as culpable in the crime as the actual perpetrators.
> 
> And I say again, Admiral Ro's death sentence has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with covering up the crime. That is not an execution; that is judicial murder.


First of all, it's not our world. And even in our world if you happened on a rape, and you killed the perpetrators, you would be in plenty trouble too. But, if you want to parallel our world, OK. Let's take the Vietnam example. If some whacked out Lt was raping a suspected Vietcong, and another Lt came upon the scene; he would not have been justified in killing the perpetrator. He would be obligated to object, perhaps try to intervene, and definitely to report it. He would not be culpable if he saw it, said, "hey, stop" then when ignored went to alert others.

And, whatever reasons Cain has for wanting them dead, Helo and Chief still have a crime to answer for.


----------



## lord-dogbert (Jan 31, 2005)

questfortruth said:


> I wonder what that giant Cylon ship is for?


It's gotta be a cloning ship for the Spylon models.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> What crime?
> 
> If Boomer were human, it would be rape. If she were an animal it would be animal cruelty or something like that.
> 
> ...


But there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that they are not human. They should be (and I suspect under any rational system of law would be) treated as human until there has been some factual determination that they are not. The fact that the rapist and Admiral Ro (and just about everybody else) insist upon ignoring the overwhelming evidence that they are human does not excuse their crimes. (And yes, I'm pretty sure rape is a crime, even when interogating enemy prisoners.)

Which, since they pretty obviously are, will probably not be forthcoming.


latrobe7 said:


> If some whacked out Lt was raping a suspected Vietcong, and another Lt came upon the scene; he would not have been justified in killing the perpetrator. He would be obligated to object, perhaps try to intervene, and definitely to report it. He would not be culpable if he saw it, said, "hey, stop" then when ignored went to alert others.


I suspect he would be.

And bear in mind, there was obviously no intent to kill the rapist. The Chief threw the rapist off his victim; the rapist fell against a bolt on the bulkhead; and that's what killed him.

But I believe that he would in fact have been morally and legally justified in using lethal force to defend somebody from rape.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that they are not human.


Sure there is.

Are you forgetting how Boomer stopped the Cylon raider fleet? She hooked herself up to the communications system and the virus went out.

A human couldn't do that. She is not human, she just looks like one.

And you still haven't answered the question about whether or not you would still insist it was "rape" if it were a metallic-looking Cylon who was bent over that cot...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> Sure there is.
> 
> Are you forgetting how Boomer stopped the Cylon raider fleet? She hooked herself up to the communications system and the virus went out.
> 
> ...


Something that is medically indistinguishable from a human couldn't do that, which is why I still think she faked it. It's not just that she looks human, it's that there is no way to tell whether she is human or Cylon (aside from Balthar's test, which doesn't seem to prove much of anything; you can do DNA tests that distinguish people of Asian origin from people of European origin), at least until multiple copies show up. She seems to have been grown from human DNA. I think what distinguishes her from the Colonials is her training, not her biology, and her biology seems to be trumping her training.

And a metallic Cylon is not medically indistinguishable from a human. It really IS a machine, indisputably, and thus, not being human, is not subject to human rights. Plus I suspect there is a pretty substantial body of Colonial law dealing with the place of Cylon robots in the legal system.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Don't forget that the human-looking Cylons can also upload their memories upon death (or rather, cessation of function). Humans can't do that either.

Yes, I'm sure that there is a body of law regarding Cylons in the Colonial legal system. And presumably it doesn't make any distinction between metallic and non-metallic Cylons. Therefore, all Cylons---no matter what their superficial appearance---would be addressed by said laws.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But they're not Cylons, they're humans working for the Cylons. And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level. Just grown and trained by Cylons (which, of course, creates an entirely different set of legal issues).

At this point, I don't think there's any point in arguing about it. You're obviously taking the position of most of the Colonials; I'm taking what I interpret as being the position of the writers. Until we get more information (in three months, sob), I don't see that there's much more to be said than what has already been said.


----------



## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> Don't forget that the human-looking Cylons can also upload their memories upon death (or rather, cessation of function). Humans can't do that either.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure that there is a body of law regarding Cylons in the Colonial legal system. And presumably it doesn't make any distinction between metallic and non-metallic Cylons. Therefore, all Cylons---no matter what their superficial appearance---would be addressed by said laws.


But would those laws still apply in time of war? Even after cylons have committed genocide against the human race?


----------



## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And the indisputable fact is that the Cylons are medically indistiguishable from humans. Calling them machines is pure bigotry. And I'm pretty sure that's the producers' intent[...]that despite their origins and enemy status, these are indeed human beings. It's pretty clear to me that the Spylons are* a metaphor for the human tendancy to dehumanize enemies*[...]


Agreed. Interesting how "Art imitates life". Sigh...


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level.


If that were true, why do they need humans to reproduce?

The human-looking Cylons clearly have super-human abilities. Just because a handful of doctors on _Galactica_ couldn't tell then apart from humans doesn't make them really human.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect he would be.
> 
> And bear in mind, there was obviously no intent to kill the rapist. The Chief threw the rapist off his victim; the rapist fell against a bolt on the bulkhead; and that's what killed him.
> 
> But I believe that he would in fact have been morally and legally justified in using lethal force to defend somebody from rape.


I don't believe he would; so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Second; whether they intended to or not, they killed the other officer. Chief attacked him, slammed his head into a metal wall (though he did not see the protruding bolt), then beat the guy while he was on the floor. While it's probably not called "manslaughter", I'm sure there is a like crime in military justice, even in the BSG world.

Finally, I don't believe you will find precedent anywhere that says you can prevent a rape with lethal force, unless it's happening to a member of your immediate family, or maybe, if you're a police officer. Definitely not in the context of a military interrogation gone out of control.

What they should have done is go down there with some Marines from Galactica and Tigh or Adama. But no, those guys where on a mission like they where out to defend someone like a wife or sister. Misplaced loyalty.


----------



## Tyrannosullyrex (Oct 6, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But they're not Cylons, they're humans working for the Cylons. And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level.


Except for the glowing spine during sex thing.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But they're not Cylons, they're humans working for the Cylons. And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level. Just grown and trained by Cylons (which, of course, creates an entirely different set of legal issues).
> 
> At this point, I don't think there's any point in arguing about it. You're obviously taking the position of most of the Colonials; I'm taking what I interpret as being the position of the writers. Until we get more information (in three months, sob), I don't see that there's much more to be said than what has already been said.


they are not human, they are synthetic...and we're not arguing how this would play over here...we know it's murky in OUR world...

in the BSG universe, there is no argument from anyone -- including Adama -- that spylons are not human. That they are, indeed, toasters...and thus a crime cannot be committed against them...

in THEIR world, that interrogator was killed trying to defend, for all intents and purposes, an inanimate object...

if you present the facts to the people in the BSG universe, they would ALL agree that Helo and Chief were nuts and should punished (as well as traitors and cylon sympathizers)...it doesn't make it right...but that means that Adama is making a stand standing on the wrong side of the issue...


----------



## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

Tyrannosullyrex said:


> Except for the glowing spine during sex thing.


Presumably only during consensual sex.

glowing spine = OK
no glowing spine = rape

OK -- time for a different topic.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

that's actually a good question...does the spine glow only during orgasm? 

I don't know WHY I think it's a good question...but eh...interesting anyway...


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

I haven't read most of the recent posts to this thread, but apparently the rape scene along w/other diffs broke the camel's back at one board. I just got an email from colonialfleets.com saying that they've closed the forum for discussion of TNS and removed its contents from their site.

They've also written an open letter to RDM. Bizarro. If anyone cares, here's the contents of the email and letter:
http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11884
http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11888


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

cwerdna said:


> They've also written an open letter to RDM. Bizarro. If anyone cares, here's the contents of the email and letter:
> http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11884
> http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11888


Wow. I think that's one of the silliest things I've ever read. It reads to me like an original-series zealot just looking for a reason to blame the new series for the downfall of society.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

cwerdna said:


> I haven't read most of the recent posts to this thread, but apparently the rape scene along w/other diffs broke the camel's back at one board. I just got an email from colonialfleets.com saying that they've closed the forum for discussion of TNS and removed its contents from their site.
> 
> They've also written an open letter to RDM. Bizarro. If anyone cares, here's the contents of the email and letter:
> http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11884
> http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11888


That is the most absurd thing I have ever read.

I've never heard of the site before, and certainly will never care now.

It's just sour grapes; the people running the site are just irrelevant and want attention, like a crying baby.


----------



## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dswallow said:


> That is the most absurd thing I have ever read.
> 
> I've never heard of the site before, and certainly will never care now.
> 
> It's just sour grapes; the people running the site are just irrelevant and want attention, like a crying baby.


I agree w/you on your points.

That site was one of the main places I went to for BSG TNS discussion. I guess I'm going to have to find others now.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

it's actually pretty funny when you think about it...

my favorite part was how they had to suffer while fans praised the show...I think that tells it all right there, don't you think?



> We have tolerated fans of your show giving lavish praise to your show, and quite at our own sufferance


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

lord-dogbert said:


> It's gotta be a cloning ship for the Spylon models.


Nope. They've got farms for that.

Quite simply, that ship is they cornerstone of my theory. Aboard that ship we wil find..... the imperious leader/God/Baltar.

Yep. God is watching.


----------



## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But they're not Cylons, they're humans working for the Cylons. And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level. Just grown and trained by Cylons (which, of course, creates an entirely different set of legal issues).
> 
> At this point, I don't think there's any point in arguing about it. You're obviously taking the position of most of the Colonials; I'm taking what I interpret as being the position of the writers. Until we get more information (in three months, sob), I don't see that there's much more to be said than what has already been said.


If they were actual humans then they wouldn't have the problems with radiation that Adama observed in Loeben at the armory. I know they look human. I know that the BSG doc's can't distinguish them from human, but they are not human. Like others have pointed out, there's the reproduction problem, and the fact that evidence suggests Baltar's test might not be as worthless as you make it out to be.

You may or may not be representing the position of the writers, but even if you are, you're still wrong to equate the Spylons with humans  Unless, of course, you can argue your way out of the radiation/reproduction differences!


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But they're not Cylons, they're humans working for the Cylons. And there's nothing superficial about their appearance; they are humans down to the cellular level. Just grown and trained by Cylons (which, of course, creates an entirely different set of legal issues).


Do we know that they are grown? And remember the PR guy mentioning to his cylon friends that maybe the radiation interferes with our silica pathways after he was left in the ammo dump. I think they probably share many human physical attributes even down to cellular level, but a very thorough or perhaps even post-mortum examination would reveal some cylon engineering. I doubt it was the cylons intention to create a mere human clone.

I do however believe that they exhibit enough genuine humanlike qualities that once captured demand some level of compassion. Chief and Helos actions were justifiable under the circumstances. Even Adama sees this. The death was an accidental by-product.


----------



## questfortruth (Feb 18, 2005)

I was very uncomfortable watching the almost-rape of Boomer.

Obviously, the fact that she looks human, is morally salient.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Anubys said:


> that's actually a good question...does the spine glow only during orgasm?
> 
> I don't know WHY I think it's a good question...but eh...interesting anyway...


We don't know that at all...she could have been faking...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

dswallow said:


> That is the most absurd thing I have ever read.


Sure is.
This takes the cake. 


> We have allowed the entertainment industry to tell us that
> 
> * it was "ok" to have a baby's neck snapped (the script originally called for Number Six to drive her finger through the baby's skull);
> 
> ...


We were being told it was OK??? That was the message???

These people are off their rockers.


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

Those people at colonialfleets.com make me embarrassed to admit I was a fan of the original show.

   :down:


----------



## Marnok (Nov 11, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> Those people at colonialfleets.com make me embarrassed to admit I was a fan of the original show.
> 
> :down:


Jeez... I think anyone should be embarrased to admit they were a fan of the original show.

It was a piece of late-70's/early '80s POS TV


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hefe said:


> We don't know that at all...she could have been faking...


clearly, you have more experience with this than me


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I like how the tag line on the bottom of that web page is:



> "When life feeds you a load of bull, raise the steaks."


I think that explains a lot.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

emandbri said:


> Emily (am I the only women in this thread?)


Nope! I'm just real behind in catching up on this thread. Was out of town til Sunday and just watched the episode last night.

Fantastic episode! I'd just watched the original "Living Legend" with Lloyd Bridges a while back, but had no idea this was coming when I saw the previews last week. Guess switching up and making Cain a woman threw me. As to the name "Cain," I always thought that was clever and probably meant Cain as in "Cain and Abel." Like Adama and Galactica are the "good twin" and Pegasus and Cain represent the bad twin. But maybe I'm thinking too much.

I thought Michelle Forbes was excellent in the roll. Very attractive, but hard without being dykish. Even though the character is a woman this time, she seems to have the same inflated ego that Lloyd Bridges' character had.

Saw the warning blink by on Tivo when they came back from that one commercial, but was totally unprepared for the almost rape scene with Boomer. Man! That was intense. So much so, I didn't even notice any music. I love that the Chief and Helo came in to save the day.

I agree with others here that the Pegasus will probably disappear just as it did in the original series to come back and haunt them another day. Though I hope this Cain is shot in the head by her XO.

Her points about Adama being too close to his crew are probably true, but that's what makes him adored by his crew. As opposed to just feared as Cain is by her crew.

I'm glad that we only have to wait till January for the next episodes. Plenty of other new season stuff to watch until then. Then BG can be the replacement when all the network shows start feeding us repeats around that time of year.

Cheryl


----------



## BenJr06 (Aug 2, 2005)

Wow those guys on the other forums are pretty scary...

The show was controversial. I liked it. I don't like or condone rape, but I liked the episode. I felt sad for boomer even though she's a cylon. Even though we know that Six was raped, I didn't feel the same sadness that I felt when I saw it happening to Boomer. I think I was more astonished at the fact that the tall blonde could give such a great performance more than sorrow for her condition. Both actresses did an outstanding job this week.

On a lighter note, now that she's pregnant, shouldn't we refer to her as a crock-pot instead of a toaster?


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

dcheesi said:


> BTW, I had no problem with them "pressing civilians into service". Unlike the BSG fleet, the military ship Pegasus was the _only_ surviving ship in their area; if they had a few civilians on board, what _else_ were they going to do with them? Let them lounge around while others on the same ship fought and died?


Actually, the show made it sound like Pegasus stumbled across a civilian ship after fleeing from the Cylon attack.

That said, if Pegasus can take all the civilians from that ship aboard I have no problem with Admiral Cane decided to no haul along a civilian ship. The civilians are almost certainly safer on the Pegasus than they would be on an unescorted unarmed ships. And Admiral Cane wouldn't want to get tied down escorting a single vulnerable civilian ship, when she has the resources to take the whole crew.

And I've got no problem with pulling the rescued civilians into the military and making them work to assist the running of Pegasus. It only makes sense in that situation.

(Galactica by contract couldn't being to take all the people in the fleet aboard, and so need to protect the rest of the fleet)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BenJr06 said:


> Wow those guys on the other forums are pretty scary...
> 
> The show was controversial. I liked it. I don't like or condone rape, but I liked the episode.


let's just be clear on one thing: the show did not glorify rape or present it as something "fun for the entire family" 

(I'm not rolling my eyes at you, but at the people on that other site)...

but anyone who thinks that that sort of thing would not happen is extremely naive...let them watch the Andy Griffith show...


----------



## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

dswallow said:


> That is the most absurd thing I have ever read.
> 
> I've never heard of the site before, and certainly will never care now.


Agreed. Talk about missing the point of the scene (and the theme running through the season).....

IMHO, Galactica actually stands out in minimizing "pointless" violence (say, in contrast to another fan-fave, Buffy TVS where the kung-fu fight of the week was obligatory) - when there is a violent scene (someone getting shot, or the near-rape) it serves to make a strong point, galvanize the characters, and advance the plot.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> And you still haven't answered the question about whether or not you would still insist it was "rape" if it were a metallic-looking Cylon who was bent over that cot...


Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place? 

Cheryl


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

speedcouch said:


> Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place?
> 
> Cheryl


you would be surprised


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place?


Considering the a market for various sex devices and dolls, I'd say there'd be plenty of takers out there if given the opportunity.


----------



## digdug (Jan 13, 2004)

vikingguy said:


> I personally hated the episode after the halfway point. The predictable raping and evil crew vs the rule breaking rebel crew was pretty damn lame. After getting away from the stupid sex crap they go right back to it. I thought the cliff hanger was pretty damn weak after last seasons. Anyone who did not see it coming 500 miles away was a sleep. Just a shame the season had to end on such a low note. Anyone who thought the almost rape was intense does not watch enough of the FX shows Nip and tuck,the shield and rescue me.


 You've got your flame suit on I hope....


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

The only thing I'll say on the torture scene is that if they didn't have disclaimer in front of that segment (?), then they probably should have. Didn't bother me, of course, but it is basic cable... Otherwise I have no problem with it, and it made perfect sense in the context of the show.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> The only thing I'll say on the torture scene is that if they didn't have disclaimer in front of that segment (?), then they probably should have.


They did.


----------



## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Alvis said:


> One thing that has been nagging me is why did Pegasus 6 allow herself to be abused? I thought all human model cylons possessed superhuman strength and speed.
> 
> edit: Or she could have terminated herself. Do they even fear death?


They didn't seem to have a problem slapping the new bondage boomer around


----------



## mcdougll (Jan 27, 2003)

BenJr06 said:


> On a lighter note, now that she's pregnant, shouldn't we refer to her as a crock-pot instead of a toaster?


[Homer]
Mmmmm, crock-pot Boomer! [/Homer]


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

ok I have it on pretty good authority that:



Spoiler



1) Gina will kill Admiral Caine

2) the Pegasus will hang around for a few episodes and eventually be destroyed on the attack on the "big ship"

3) there is no Sheeba

4) Gina is a Cylon that has lost her faith in "God".

5) Sharon's baby is still there, and some of its stem cells will be used by Baltar in ep 12 or 13 to cure President Laura

6) The fighters/pilots from the Pegasus will be used to re-supply the Galactica which will make them a bit more formidable when dealing with basestars in the future.

7) Adama is promoted to Admiral

8) Episode 12: Epiphanies; January 2006
A member of the peace movement who is seeking to end the flight from the Cylons and come to peace with them arrives on Galactica and soon ends up in the brig. President Roslin has become very ill because of the progression of her cancer. Billy and Vice President Baltar prepare for Baltar to succeed her VERY SOON. They are interrupted by a phone call for Baltar. He immediately leaves for Cloud Nine. One of the peace movement's suicide bombers heavily damages the tylium refiner's FTL engines. Baltar meets an "old friend." on Cloud Nine. Baltar saves Roslin's life (or at least prolongs it) by using some procedure that involves Caprica Boomer's unborn child (often referred in rumors to as involving stem cells). She then visits the brig and comes to an agreement with the representative of the peace movement. Baltar's procedure apparently has bought Sharon and her unborn baby. Gina, the Number Six copy, is apparently a member of this peace movement (unless it's another Gina). Baltar covertly allies himself with this movement by providing them with a bomb

9) Episode 13: Black Market; January 2006
Lee investigates the murder of Fisk and get entangled with a criminal group who are specializing in providing supplies that are otherwise unavailable. He has been in a relationship with a woman, who is looking after a girl who may be Lee's daughter from a relationship on Caprica. The criminals grab the girl His attempts to rescue the girl and take the woman to safety on Galactica are thwarted when it turns out that she is working with the criminal syndicate as a tool for acquiring information for blackmail (and possibly as a prostitute) and actually set him up. The episode features flashbacks to Caprica to the breakdown of the relationship that may have produced a daughter, as well as flashbacks that build the current relationship he was having with the woman in the fleet. Tom Zarek (Richard Hatch) appears.

10) Episode 14: Sacrifice; Unknown
Lee, Ellen Tigh, Billy and Dualla are taken hostage while on shore leave to Cloud Nine. They are apparently taken hostage in a move by some civilians in the fleet to demand Sharon be turned over to them so they can take revenge on her for the Cylon attack on the colonies. Lee is wounded and Dee cares for him, which Billy notices The dead Sharon is used to try and fool the hostage-takers. Just as things look like they will be resolved, the hostage-takers realize that they have been had. A struggle ensues and Billy is shot. His fate is unknown, but the episode does seem to set the stage for Lee and Dualla to grow closer, as already hinted at in Flight of the Phoenix.

11) Episode 15: ???
It is rumored that a recurring character will die in this episode. Billy would be a good fit because:
- He is seriously wounded in the climax of Ep 214
- The character was nearly written out during Valley of Darkness because the actor (Paul Campbell) had filmed a pilot. The pilot was not picked up, but perhaps he has other work.
- Billy has not appeared much since early in the season.
- Starting in Ep #209, there are hints of a building interest between Dee and Lee.


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

> We have allowed the entertainment industry to tell us that
> 
> * it was "ok" to have a baby's neck snapped (the script originally called for Number Six to drive her finger through the baby's skull);
> 
> ...


I'd expect drivel like that from the parent's television council, but from a Sci-fi board? SHESH!

-Mike


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

LOL, what a moron. Who said any of that was "ok?"


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

blarg said:


> ok I have it on pretty good authority that:


Wow, good stuff. I would like to comment but I don't feel comfortable doing it out in the open (would give away the spoilers) and I don't want to create a string of spoiler posts - I can wait to say what I want to say...

Spoiler #5 I find particularly interesting...

EDIT: But if the rest of the episode briefs in there are correct; I am not pleased with the show direction  - Like sands through the hourglass; so is the list of shows that start out well, then become sappy soap-operas.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

the part of Admiral Caine was originally offered to Jane Seymour, but she turned it down. (probably because she'd have to play a woman older than 30)


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Considering the a market for various sex devices and dolls, I'd say there'd be plenty of takers out there if given the opportunity.


I think this is EXACTLY the point of the Pegasus's crew mentality towards rape. Remember, the Cylons are not some sentient alien race that the humans encountered. They were MADE by humans. They were toasters, vacuum cleaners, and most probably sex toys. They still think the Cylons are just tools that had their A.I. cross-wired.

Also, don't forget, the Pegasus crew did not have a personal-friend-turned-cylons like Sharon that they empathized with.


----------



## propman07 (Oct 15, 2001)

<Dummy>

So I must have missed it...when I was watching BSG on the West Coast, they mentioned that the season finale of BSG would be on at 10:00. I recorded that episode, but it ended with the "To Be Continued" at the bottom of the screen...did I see the season finale, and not realize it?

</Dummy>


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Yes.


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## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

ihatecable said:


> They didn't seem to have a problem slapping the new bondage boomer around


They would not. Any sign of super-human violence from "bondage boomer" would be counter-productive to her ever getting out of that cell and destroy any trust that may develop between the "new boomer" and the crew.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

propman07 said:


> <Dummy>
> 
> So I must have missed it...when I was watching BSG on the West Coast, they mentioned that the season finale of BSG would be on at 10:00. I recorded that episode, but it ended with the "To Be Continued" at the bottom of the screen...did I see the season finale, and not realize it?
> 
> </Dummy>


It was the finale of Season 2A as Ron Moore put it in the podcast.

For the purpose of the network and production, etc., Season 2 is 20 episodes. 
However, they are showing them in two 10 episode chunks...What we just saw from July-Sept. and the next 10 (2B) starting in January.

The thinking is that they are avoiding conflicts with the much higher rated networks in their first run and premeire time periods.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

...except it's not really a season finale; the remaining ten or so episodes will air beginning in January.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...except it's not really a season finale; the remaining ten or so episodes will air beginning in January.


For all intents and purposes, it is.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> For all intents and purposes, it is.


No, it's not.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

dswallow said:


> No, it's not.


A season is a period of time. In television terms, it is while a show is not airing re-runs consistently. They will be airing re-runs consistently for the next 3 months. Thus, the "season" is over for the first half of Sci-Fi Friday.

I know that when they release the "second season" of BSG, it will contain all 20 episodes from both segments. Which is why I said "for all intents and purposes." I thought you'd be able to understand that, Doug.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

dtle said:


> I think this is EXACTLY the point of the Pegasus's crew mentality towards rape. Remember, the Cylons are not some sentient alien race that the humans encountered. They were MADE by humans. They were toasters, vacuum cleaners, and most probably sex toys. They still think the Cylons are just tools that had their A.I. cross-wired.
> 
> Also, don't forget, the Pegasus crew did not have a personal-friend-turned-cylons like Sharon that they empathized with.





Spoiler



as it turns out Gina became a part of the crew (before the crew knew she was a Cylon and eventually caused a Cylon attack in which 800 crew members aboard the Pegasus were killed...so that goes a long way to explain her treatment.


----------



## propman07 (Oct 15, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Yes.


Thanks.

(and is it safe to say that there will be no new shows between now and January? I didn't mean to start something...)


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

propman07 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> (and is it safe to say that there will be no new shows between now and January? I didn't mean to start something...)


You're not starting anything. The new batch of episodes (note lack of word "season") begins in January.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

IndyJones1023 said:


> A season is a period of time. In television terms, it is while a show is not airing re-runs consistently. They will be airing re-runs consistently for the next 3 months. Thus, the "season" is over for the first half of Sci-Fi Friday.
> 
> I know that when they release the "second season" of BSG, it will contain all 20 episodes from both segments. Which is why I said "for all intents and purposes." I thought you'd be able to understand that, Doug.


When the production company behind the show identifies it other than "season 2" you might have a point. But it's season 2, no matter when the network may choose air the episodes.


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

dswallow said:


> When the production company behind the show identifies it other than "season 2" you might have a point. But it's season 2, no matter when the network may choose air the episodes.


exactly. Production doesn't stop...only airing of episodes. Season refers to the anual production run and budget, not air dates.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Once again, which is why I stated "for all intents and purposes." From the viewers perspective, it feels like 2 mini season.


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## propman07 (Oct 15, 2001)

IndyJones1023 said:


> You're not starting anything. The new batch of episodes (note lack of word "season") begins in January.


Okay. I don't really care if you call it a season, or call them episodes...all I know is that the new "ones" start in 01/2006.


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

WHO CARES?!?!?! call it what you want. 

so who thinks Gina is pregnant already?


----------



## Cue-Ball (Oct 8, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place?
> 
> Cheryl


"It's MY sex box. And her name is Sony".


----------



## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

dtle said:


> I think this is EXACTLY the point of the Pegasus's crew mentality towards rape. Remember, the Cylons are not some sentient alien race that the humans encountered. They were MADE by humans. They were toasters, vacuum cleaners, and most probably sex toys. They still think the Cylons are just tools that had their A.I. cross-wired.
> 
> Also, don't forget, the Pegasus crew did not have a personal-friend-turned-cylons like Sharon that they empathized with.


They are either malfunctioning machines or sentient beings, that happen to be responsible for genocide of billions of innocent civilians in a sneak attach. When you take hope away from people (like having most of your friends and family dead) morality goes out the window real fast. If some sicko wants to have sex with a walking blow up doll thats his call.

PS: I wouldnt care if they slapped mother Teresa face on a robot to make it warm and fuzzy, its still a robot.


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

BenJr06 said:


> On a lighter note, now that she's pregnant, shouldn't we refer to her as a crock-pot instead of a toaster?


Don't you mean a Toaster Oven?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ronsch said:


> Don't you mean a Toaster Oven?


Har-har-har-ar..... Good one.

A bun in the Toaster oven...


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

ihatecable said:


> They are either malfunctioning machines or sentient beings, that happen to be responsible for genocide of billions of innocent civilians in a sneak attach. When you take hope away from people (like having most of your friends and family dead) morality goes out the window real fast. If some sicko wants to have sex with a walking blow up doll thats his call.
> 
> PS: I wouldnt care if they slapped mother Teresa face on a robot to make it warm and fuzzy, its still a robot.


But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.

The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.

I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.
> 
> The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.
> 
> I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.


well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs. When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.

I guess they really DO have a plan.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

CTLesq said:


> But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.


Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I've been turning this over in my head for a while: Why is the "rape" so much worse than the way Starbuck interrogated Leoben? He was beaten pretty well. Holding someones head under water for a time, over and over, is a form of torture. If someone had busted into that room and attacked Starbuck, would anyone argue that is justified? 

Is it because Starbuck is a woman, interrogating what looked like a man; and Boomer looks like a woman who was being interrogated by a man? 

If they had decided to sexually abuse Leoben would that have been crossing the line ('cause that never happens in real life POW camps  )? 

And why would that be crossing the line? Because it too traumatizing for the victim?  Or because it would seem that rape is too sadistic? In other words torture is OK so long as the torturer doesn't get off on it too much?


----------



## Kevdog (Apr 18, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that they are not human.


Not to beat a very, very bruised horse, but there is. Humans are not at all affected by the fields surrounding Ragnar Station, while the same fields kill Cylons. And when humans have sex, their spines don't glow. So Spylons are very easily distinguishable from humans.

In any event, to your larger point, I think you're making some assumptions about the evolution of colonial law that may be a bit premature. It's quite possible that they haven't yet incorporated any concept of non-human "rights" into their legal system. And that could be where the show is heading. Consider this: despite the fact that the Colonials have had FTL capabilities for some time, there has never been a single reference to intelligent life that is not human. So in all of their travels across space they, apparently, never met another sentient species (that we know of). Why, then, would their legal code account for the possibility? And up til now, the Cylons were simply machines. The Spylons are, in relative terms, a very new development. I think it's a leap (especially under the circumstances) to suggest that the Colonials would automatically grant Spylons human status simply because they appear to be human, even at the molecular level.

This whole issue reminds me a bit of the ST:TNG and the evolution of Data's rights as a sentient being. He was initially treated as an object until his rights were established in court.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Kevdog said:


> Not to beat a very, very bruised horse, but there is. Humans are not at all affected by the fields surrounding Ragnar Station, while the same fields kill Cylons. And when humans have sex, thier spines don't glow.


Don't forget the greater speed and strength; particularly Leoben and 6, and heightened endurance; remember how Boomer never gets tired?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

hefe said:


> Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.


I could've said it better, but this answer will do... 

seriously...totally agree...glad I didn't smeek!


----------



## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

CTLesq said:


> But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.
> 
> The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.
> 
> I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.


I think the Cylons have no problems with it. See, I remember that episode where Starbuck was on Caprica and found these farms...

Can you think of something worse than rape? That would be, wouldn't you think? The Cylons apparently had no problems with that at all.

One of the reasons during wartime you do not commit atrocities on the enemy is so that such treatment does not get meted out on your own population in return. (This is in general, I am not suggesting that the Boomer scene had anything to do with Caprica)


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

blarg said:


> well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs. When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.
> 
> I guess they really DO have a plan.


Let's think about any "laws" created regarding cylons. When those laws were written, it most likely defined cylons as the metallic "toasters" that they knew existed (remember, it was the centurion model they were most familiar with). The Cylons comprised of flesh and blood (and who knows what) may not meet the definition of "cylon". If they are not a metallic cylon, then the law would have to regard them as human. I do not think that any new laws have been passed by the Quorum of Twelve yet.

The point behind the topic is that a society is judged by how it treats its prisoners. Something to think about.

And, since there have not been any executions in the aftermath of the killing of civilians by the military, then one has to question if their society has capital punishment.

I am seeing the show as more of a commentary on our society, similar to the original Star Trek and continued on Deep Space Nine. Seeing DS9 in repeats I am impressed on how the messages it contained still are spot on more than a decade later.

Well done Mr. Moore! Well Done...


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## ccooperev (Apr 24, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> What crime?
> 
> If Boomer were human, it would be rape. If she were an animal it would be animal cruelty or something like that.
> 
> ...


Would you agree that Cylons are sentient beings? If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?


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## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

ccooperev said:


> Would you agree that Cylons are sentient beings? If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?


Many of you are forgetting that cylons committed genocide. Human race are in verge of extinction and _humane_ treatment of *cylon* prisoners should be least of their worries.

edit: Even if Pegasus crew didn't rape 6, will cylons spare their lives because of it? NO!


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

ccooperev said:


> If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?


Whether or not they *should* deserve not to harmed is not really the issue.

I was arguing a point of law. If there is no law against something, then it's not illegal.

If there's no law against having sex with Cylons against their will, then it's not illegal...perhaps _immoral_, but that's a whole other discussion.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

I think what many people are forgetting is that this is a TV show.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

blarg said:


> well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs.


So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jeeters said:


> So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?


in their world, yes...it's ok...

as for the sentient being argument...again, in their world, they are not -- as of yet -- considered that...

you can clearly see the start of change in some minds, but for 99.9% of the population, they are not only toasters, but toasters that burned (  ) their entire population to the ground...


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## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

blargwell said:


> , they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster


The type victim is irrelvant, it is the intent of the perpetrator to induce trama in the vicitm. That the victim was human or cylon or whatever, as I view it has nothing to do with why the act was being committed. It was done precisely because of the belief that it would have a catastrophic effect on the victim.



blargwell said:


> , ...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs.


Does anyone really have a working knowledge of colonial law? Do we want to get into a debate of New York vs. California vs. Texas rape laws?

I don't think you can do that. I think you can view this from a moral/immoral act perspective.



blargwell said:


> , When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.
> 
> I guess they really DO have a plan.


No. I view this as a science fiction show. I view the cylons as a metaphor for every problem/issue humanity has ever faced. Replace machine with race or sexual orientation or greed. That they are machines in this particular rendition of humanity grappling with its own shortcomings is meaningless to me.



hefe said:


> Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.


I agree, nor was I defending the practice.



rworne said:


> I think the Cylons have no problems with it. See, I remember that episode where Starbuck was on Caprica and found these farms...
> 
> Can you think of something worse than rape? That would be, wouldn't you think? The Cylons apparently had no problems with that at all.
> 
> One of the reasons during wartime you do not commit atrocities on the enemy is so that such treatment does not get meted out on your own population in return. (This is in general, I am not suggesting that the Boomer scene had anything to do with Caprica)


That the cylons had no problem with rape does not excuse humans from how they behave with regards to that kind of treatment.

Nor is there any evidence that the crew of the Pegasus had any knowledge of the events on Caprica.

***

The behavior of the Pegasus interrogator was incorrect and inexcusable.


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

Alvis said:


> Many of you are forgetting that cylons committed genocide. Human race are in verge of extinction and _humane_ treatment of *cylon* prisoners should be least of their worries.


Wow, that sounds like the worst kind of justification. Using the actions of a race to justify what we do to an individual is pretty weak. Ask the Japanese-American citizens we interned in WW2 if it was justified because the Japanese attacked up at Pearl Harbor. Germany under Hitler was on a mission of genocide, does that mean that since I'm of German decent _I_ should be able to be raped/beaten/tortured and nobody should feel bad about it?


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## GTO40 (Jul 25, 2005)

CTLesq - I agree. 

Condoning behavior on a " toaster " will only reinforce behavior which will seem justified later towards a human female prisoner. 

Possibly the Pegasus will survive to lead a rescue mission for Starbuck's lover & survivors on Caprica.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

CTLesq said:


> The behavior of the Pegasus interrogator was incorrect and inexcusable.


OK, let me ask this again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbucks motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?

The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "moral-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.

I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> OK, let me ask this again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.
> 
> Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbucks motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?


I have to apologize, I was out of the country during the airing of the first season and am now watching it on DVD to catch up. If this is part of the second season I don't recall it. So I am not really qualified to comment one way or another.



latrobe7 said:


> The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "morale-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.


I think to the extent that people wish to draw a corallary between rape laws in the US and cylons not being human and therefore not being protected by the laws it would be reasonable to draw a comparison to the Geneva Convention and point out that the actions being peretrated by the Pegasus interogrator would violate the GC and the parties who signed the GC have an obligation as to how they treat their prisoners/security detainees which was being violated by the Pegasus interrogator.

Again, there are so many jumps you have to make to apply these laws/treaties to the situation at hand I don't know that you really can but we are talking about a sci-fi show.



latrobe7 said:


> I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".


Possibly. I can see your point. I wish I had seen the other interrogation to be able to comment on it.


----------



## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Tangent said:


> Wow, that sounds like the worst kind of justification. Using the actions of a race to justify what we do to an individual is pretty weak. Ask the Japanese-American citizens we interned in WW2 if it was justified because the Japanese attacked up at Pearl Harbor. Germany under Hitler was on a mission of genocide, does that mean that since I'm of German decent _I_ should be able to be raped/beaten/tortured and nobody should feel bad about it?


OK, why are there human model cylons on Pegasus, Galactica, and colonial fleet? They aren't innocent cylons who just want to get along with humans. Their mission is to kill, sabotage, and spy on the humans. If they have no intent to harm, they can easily come forward and maybe even become productive member of the fleet.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbucks motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?.


I believe it was not.

Yes, they were both trying to get information, from that respect there is similarity. But it is my personal belief that you don't rape someone just because of the effect on the prisoner. Which doesn't mean I believe that other forms of torture are completely ok. It's hard to put yourself in such a hypothetical situation, but I can just tell you personally, that if I was in a position where I really believed that I had to cause harm for the greater good, I would take no joy in it. I certainly wouldn't choose a method that is as personal to me (the interrogator) as it is to the victim. Do they have any reason to believe that a Cylon will respond if inflicted with sexual violation? I think they just personally got off on it. Either from a sexual or power perspective, or both.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> OK, let me ask this again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.
> 
> Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbucks motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?
> 
> ...


It's a good thought - one I hadn't considered. My views have changed - but mainly because of how the series has progressed. I look at Cylons differently now.

On the other hand, there is arguably a difference between violently threatening/abusing someone who is a threat to you (wasn't there an issue about a bomb on the fleet?) and someone who is no immediate threat but quietly being maintained in prison (BoomerMark2).


----------



## oski87 (Dec 12, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> I think what many people are forgetting is that this is a TV show.


....said the man with 12,000 posts 

Sorry, totally uncalled for.


----------



## ahartman (Dec 28, 2001)

Why is everyone making the leap that they (he?) was going to rape Cylon Boomer to demoralize her so later he would be able to have a more productive interrogation?

I'm guessing this guy was just a power-tripping jackass - it was about power, not about information.

That this is entrenching so many, I think, provides exactly what the writers/producers want - us to be confused about the Cylons as individuals - are they thinking for themselves or is this all part of 'the plan'?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

ahartman said:


> That this is entrenching so many, I think, provides exactly what the writers/producers want - us to be confused about the Cylons as individuals -


I think you are correct about that. Creating these moral dilemmas is part of what makes the show so thought provoking. They know they are setting up a moral conflict. That's the whole point.


----------



## oski87 (Dec 12, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> OK, let me ask this again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.
> 
> Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbucks motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that Starbuck was questioning/torturing a cylon that had just claimed to have planted a nuke aboard the fleet. An imminent threat like that trumps any moral concerns. Just ask Jack Bauer :up:

I dont think that the "is a cylon a sentient being?" arguement is central to the story. IMO the writers were just trying to show that the crew of the Pegasus is amoral. The way that the deck hands were talking about Sharon ("Hear you've got a cylon prisoner. I heard she's a HOTTIE!!") tells me that they arent debating amongst themselves her status as a sentient being and whether or not rules of war apply to a toaster-- they are just acting on their most base instincts without benefit of any sort of moral compass at all. I'd place a big bet that their behavior will turn bad (worse) toward the Galactica crew in part 2, and THAT will be the important part of the story.


----------



## Royster (May 24, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place? l


By your command!


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

oski87 said:


> ....said the man with 12,000 posts
> 
> Sorry, totally uncalled for.


Hey, I don't mind a little ribbing (for my pleasure), but my post count has nothing to do with understanding it's all a show. Most of my post count is in Happy Hour.


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

ahartman said:


> Why is everyone making the leap that they (he?) was going to rape Cylon Boomer to demoralize her so later he would be able to have a more productive interrogation?


Perhaps because he was the _interogator_ from the Pegasus?

I don't see it as a leap so much as a logical conclusion that one reaches from moving from point A to point B.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Let's think about any "laws" created regarding cylons. When those laws were written, it most likely defined cylons as the metallic "toasters" that they knew existed (remember, it was the centurion model they were most familiar with). The Cylons comprised of flesh and blood (and who knows what) may not meet the definition of "cylon". If they are not a metallic cylon, then the law would have to regard them as human. I do not think that any new laws have been passed by the Quorum of Twelve yet.
> 
> The point behind the topic is that a society is judged by how it treats its prisoners. Something to think about.
> 
> ...


well I think we just see this differently. You're buying into the Cylon "plan" which is probably making humans thing that Cylons are just as human as they are, where the truth is they're just a bunch of errant machinary. They're not people...that's all there is to it. They're artificially-generated things made to look like humans so that humans will get confused and not know what to do with them. If you create a thing that responds to pain....are you then obligated to treat it like anything more than what it is...a machine? Cylons are not human. If they were they'd be called "humans" not "Cylons". Cylons are cloned....or somehow copied. They have eachother's memories. When humans die, they're dead. When Cylons die, their memories and everything they are just get transferred to another body. Killing them is just doing them a favor. It gets them out of captivity, it tranfers all the informantion THEY have to a safe place, and it gives the captors NOTHING. Keeping one alive and doing whatever horrible things you can do to it may be the best way to fight back.

as for judging a society by how it treats its prisoners...I agree. However when an army captures an aircraft, or a new vehicle, or a weapon, it doesn't get placed under house arrest and fed 3 times a day, and allowed to do as it pleases. It gets disected, analized, pushed to the breaking point, and reverse-engineered.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

he had found a moral loophole...he found a female (or two) that he could rape without any consequence...I make no bones about it...he is a rapist... 

except that in that universe, it is not rape because she's not human... 

I've made the analogy to a slave owner raping a slave girl...it wasn't a rape then, either (for the most part)... 

of course it's RAPE...in both cases...but if society agrees that the victim is not human, then it can happen...this is what makes this show so good!


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

Anubys said:


> he had found a moral loophole...he found a female (or two) that he could rape without any consequence...I make no bones about it...he is a rapist...
> 
> except that in that universe, it is not rape because she's not human...
> 
> ...


exactly, I'm not saying that he's a nice person and I'd want him as my college roommate, I'm just saying that in the BSG universe what he's doing is completely fine.

so....when Howard Stern nailed that sex doll on the radio....was that rape too? what if he slapped it? what if he cut it up and threw it in the dumpster afterwards? does LOOKING and FEELING human make you human?


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

Jeeters said:


> So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?


Don't ask, don't tell.  (thank you Mr. Clinton)


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

blarg said:


> If you create a thing that responds to pain....are you then obligated to treat it like anything more than what it is...a machine? Cylons are not human. If they were they'd be called "humans" not "Cylons". Cylons are cloned....or somehow copied. They have eachother's memories. When humans die, they're dead. When Cylons die, their memories and everything they are just get transferred to another body. Killing them is just doing them a favor. It gets them out of captivity, it tranfers all the informantion THEY have to a safe place, and it gives the captors NOTHING. Keeping one alive and doing whatever horrible things you can do to it may be the best way to fight back.


If the pain response is what is useful, then you can inflict pain in many ways. Rape is not as much about inflicting physical pain as it is emotional or psychological pain. (Or the rapist gets off on it) If you believe that they are fundamentally machines that just simply have a pain response, then rape should be ineffective. There would be no "mental state" to **** with. Therefore, we return to the conclusion that it is being done just because the rapists want to commit that act, not for any other benefit.


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

hefe said:


> If the pain response is what is useful, then you can inflict pain in many ways. Rape is not as much about inflicting physical pain as it is emotional or psychological pain. (Or the rapist gets off on it) If you believe that they are fundamentally machines that just simply have a pain response, then rape should be ineffective. There would be no "mental state" to **** with. Therefore, we return to the conclusion that it is being done just because the rapists want to commit that act, not for any other benefit.


you are, of course, assuming that Cylons HAVE emotions and psychology to incfict pain on...its just a program designed to emulate responses that play on YOUR psychology. They could just be using your weaknesses against you...as I said I'm not in any way suggestions that the interrogator was a nice guy...I just don't think he's doing anything that is wrong within the framework of BSG...

and yes, we should all remember that his is just a T.V. show.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

January seems like a very long way away right now...


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> January seems like a very long way away right now...


then go read the spoilers in my post a few pages back...plot lines for the next 5 episodes are in there.


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## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

*Sigh*

Come on people. As was mentioned earlier, this is just a show. Since all the atrocities on this program are ficticious, I view this as an academic exercise where I do not need to "care" about the subjects as I would have to in a real-life situation.

Yes, the images are disturbing at times - but when all is said and done the actors leave work for their homes happy, healthy and safe.


----------



## oski87 (Dec 12, 2003)

IndyJones1023 said:


> Hey, I don't mind a little ribbing (for my pleasure), but my post count has nothing to do with understanding it's all a show. Most of my post count is in Happy Hour.


Oh, sorry. I only rib people for my pleasure. I laugh at my own jokes a lot, too.

I totally agree with you, btw


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

What? Really? This is a TV show?! I thought it was a live-action documentary from the ancient past delivered via wormhole!  

Seriously, how many times can we chime in about the soundtrack or how hot Boomer or Lee is? God forbid we have a discussion with meat on its bones. I kind of think that's what the writers were going for, something thought/discussion provoking.

So all you folks who feel the need to remind us that it's "just a show"; thanks for the reality check, but don't bother. Just move along or post your critique of the props and sets right below my morality questions.


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

No thanks, I'll say what I want. The debates are just getting ridiculous over a fictional show, that's all.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

And your opinion is more valid?  

Whatever. I'll post whatever I want, too. So there.


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## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

Mine is no more valid. Just reminding people to chill out. [hint, hint]


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

how do we know that this is not a documentary diabolically beamed to us in order to condition us to respond favorably to Galactica when it shows up in orbit? 

We need to entertain that possibility!


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

They're "historical documents"


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

blarg said:


> exactly, I'm not saying that he's a nice person and I'd want him as my college roommate, I'm just saying that in the BSG universe what he's doing is completely fine.


Actually, assaulting somebody who has done nothing but give the Galactica crew helpful information is not fine, potential rape or not.

It's horrible tactics.

-smak-


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

Alvis said:


> OK, why are there human model cylons on Pegasus, Galactica, and colonial fleet? They aren't innocent cylons who just want to get along with humans. Their mission is to kill, sabotage, and spy on the humans. If they have no intent to harm, they can easily come forward and maybe even become productive member of the fleet.


The problem with the argument is assumption that because somebody is a member of any given race that they all have the exact same intentions. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. _Assuming_ they do as justification for torture is weak at best. Let's take my example of the Japanese interned in WW2. Were there Japanese spies in the US whose mission was to kill, sabotage, and to spy on the US? Certainly. Was that a valid reason for interning _all_ people of Japanese heritage? Nope. If you were an American citizen in WW2 with Japanese heritage but people for some reason thought you were Chinese and were leaving you alone would _you_ be eager to come forward and correct them?


----------



## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.

"What is this big ship?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)


----------



## rworne (Jul 8, 2004)

rich said:


> I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.
> 
> "What is this big ship?"
> "Well, um, I..."
> (violent methods begin)


That's because it's a domination game. He really wasn't interested in the answers - he either already had them, or didn't expect her to know based upon what was gleaned from the Cylon on the Pegasus. If she knew, he knew she would not give up the answer easily - or any easy (or coerced) answer may be another lie - so he just went on to "show her who's boss".

I'll save the "Who's your daddy?" comments for another time.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

blarg said:


> you are, of course, assuming that Cylons HAVE emotions and psychology to incfict pain on...its just a program designed to emulate responses that play on YOUR psychology. They could just be using your weaknesses against you...as I said I'm not in any way suggestions that the interrogator was a nice guy...I just don't think he's doing anything that is wrong within the framework of BSG...
> 
> and yes, we should all remember that his is just a T.V. show.


Well of course it's a TV show, but it raises issues that can be discussed in terms of real life. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're missing my point on the above, however. For the rape to be effective, and in any way remotely justifiable as an interrogation tool, (so to speak) you MUST assume that the emotional and psychological aspect is present. Otherwise, yes, you're just sticking a fork in a toaster, and there is no point to it other than playing with a sex doll programmed to act victimized when raped. And the glee with which the Pegasus crew acted out that fantasy is truly horrifying.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

rich said:


> I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.
> 
> "What is this big ship?"
> "Well, um, I..."
> (violent methods begin)


Yeah, I had that thought, too. That's what makes me think that he wanted to get off more than he wanted to get information. Assuming Baltar was right, and you can mess with Cylon psychology the same as human psychology; it would seem to me that it would be more effective to build up to that kind of violation rather than start with it.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I think that the bottom line is that cylons are not human and as such can be treated much differently than typical prisoners of war. This situation is one of survival and at this point in the humans existence desperate measures will be taken to extract information from the cylons that the humans have access to. 

However (and I think this is exactly why the cylons created human models) given that there are human models certain forms of interrogation or torture should not be condoned as it would in general desensitize the crew and possibly cause some behavior issues in the future. Using physical voilence should be expected (Starbuck used it against Leoben), afterall these guys were responsible for the practical extinction of the human race and they are a unified force. It's not as if a segment of the cylons have come forward and stated what was done was wrong. Every human version we've seen has had this opportunity and they failed to apologize or say that they are or were not part of that massacre.

For us as viewers and to a lesser extent the crew of Galactica we know that despite any misgivings that a cylon may vocalize, they can have their actions dictated by an outside force or programming, thus making them all untrustworthy. Any leader that didn't see this would be considered an idiot. Adama sees it which is why boomer is kept in lock-up. You can't have someone running free on a ship if that person is not completely responsible for their actions.

So, for me what was done against prisoner 6 and almost boomer was unfortunate and a poor reflection upon the Pegasus crew, but it was hardly unexpected given the feelings that the cylons have unearthed in the survivors. Chief and Helo were wrong to use force in stopping the interrogator. They have anthromorphosized boomer because she looks human and has been programmed to act human, but in reality she is not. Through her programming she has manipulated everyone she has come in contact with for any length of time. 

However what happened to kill the interrogator was an accident and neither of the two should have to pay with their lives. At this point human life is too precious to expend unless under the most dire of circumstances.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Stormspace said:


> So, for me what was done against prisoner 6 and almost boomer was unfortunate and a poor reflection upon the Pegasus crew, but it was hardly unexpected given the feelings that the cylons have unearthed in the survivors.


I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.


----------



## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

hefe said:


> I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.


Ok, so lets say that one just offed your entire support structure. Family, friends, everyone you know and they are unpentant. Now, someone with some influence over you asks you to question them, not kill them, or make them pay for what they did. Just ask them questions and keep them alive or functioning as the case may be.

I think most people would be a little unhinged in that situation which sorta explains the reaction of the Pegasus crew. To do something to get back at them in a personal way. Their level of grief must be overpowering given the conditions they are enduring and I'm surprised they can use enough restraint to not kill everyone of them on sight.

As for the interrogator I think he was just a sadistic bastard using his control over a prisoner as an excuse to get off. But given the background of the show what he did was no different than doing to the same thing to an inanimate object. One that is programmed to kill you if you do anything wrong.

What does surprise me is that the Admiral didn't object as the act against a female looking cylon might spill over into actions of the crew against real female people even if they were suspected of being a cylon..


----------



## rich (Mar 18, 2002)

Come to think of it, Tigh has also been known to use violent interrogation tactics against the other Sharon.

"Why did you shoot Adama?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)


----------



## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

How many people were on board Pegasus or part of their support "fleet"? Until the Pegasus found Galactica they likely had to assume that they were the only humans left, right?


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

hefe said:


> I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.


Rape is a crime of power, not anything sexual. There's alot more hate involved in it than there is a desire to get off. The interrogator was doing to as a way to make clear his dominance over the victim.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Tangent said:


> Rape is a crime of power, not anything sexual. There's alot more hate involved in it than there is a desire to get off. The interrogator was doing to as a way to make clear his dominance over the victim.


I've heard people say that, but I don't believe it. Not completely. There are lots of ways to demonstrate power. Getting off on it is a major component. It is done to satisfy something in the person doing it. Power is certainly a component, maybe even the largest component, but there is something else at work.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that's a little premature--we still have 11 or so episodes to go this season!


I'm STILL so confused...


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

LlamaLarry said:


> How many people were on board Pegasus or part of their support "fleet"? Until the Pegasus found Galactica they likely had to assume that they were the only humans left, right?


I think if you consider just how massive the human population was and how spread out it was - 12 colonies - the amount of space travel, minor settlements it would have been impossible to completely annihilate it in one fell swoop. That is not to say that a huge chunk of it could not have been taken out in a huge attack but there would be too many "loose ends" still kicking around IMO for humanity to get whacked in one fell swoop.

I think you also brought uo an excellent point regarding support fleet. I think it would be reasonable that there would have to be a cast of supporting ships for a battlestar similar to what we have for our current naval carriers.

I would be interested to get other people's thoughts on that.


----------



## jfjellstad (May 6, 2002)

CTLesq said:


> I think you also brought uo an excellent point regarding support fleet. I think it would be reasonable that there would have to be a cast of supporting ships for a battlestar similar to what we have for our current naval carriers.
> 
> I would be interested to get other people's thoughts on that.


When the mini came out, Ron Moore mentioned on his blog that battlestars were the nucleus of a battlegroup similar to the US navy, so there would be support ships (destroyers and other support ships). Only reason Galactica didn't have its support ships were because it was being retired (also reason why the ship doesn't have a full crew).

I think the reason we don't see support ships with the Pegasus was because they did a blind jump. If the jump was random, the carrier group (if the other ships were able to jump) probably was dispersed. It also means that Galactica might run into other military ships that survived the attack.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> I'm STILL so confused...


Sci-Fi Channel divides its seasons into two parts. They air the first half during the summer, when the networks are in reruns, then go into reruns in the fall, when the networks are in first-run, then air the second half of the season starting around January.

They used to always call the last show of the summer half the "Summer Finale," and in fact that's what they called this year's batch on their web site. But some of their on-air ads called it a "season finale," which made an already confusing situation even more confusing.

But right now, they are halfway through the second season of Galactica, and the rest of the second season will air beginning in January.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

rworne said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Come on people. As was mentioned earlier, this is just a show. Since all the atrocities on this program are ficticious, I view this as an academic exercise where I do not need to "care" about the subjects as I would have to in a real-life situation.
> 
> Yes, the images are disturbing at times - but when all is said and done the actors leave work for their homes happy, healthy and safe.


there should be a disclaimer in the credits -

No actual Cylons were harmed in the filming of this episode.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

smak said:


> Actually, assaulting somebody who has done nothing but give the Galactica crew helpful information is not fine, potential rape or not.
> 
> It's horrible tactics.
> 
> -smak-


a Cylon is a machine...no different than a screwdriver. If you use it to drive screws...its helpful, and if one day you get bored and decide to take a blowtorch to it just to see how cool it would look glowing red....you wouldn't feel bad about "mistreating it" would you?


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

hefe said:


> Well of course it's a TV show, but it raises issues that can be discussed in terms of real life. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I think you're missing my point on the above, however. For the rape to be effective, and in any way remotely justifiable as an interrogation tool, (so to speak) you MUST assume that the emotional and psychological aspect is present. Otherwise, yes, you're just sticking a fork in a toaster, and there is no point to it other than playing with a sex doll programmed to act victimized when raped. And the glee with which the Pegasus crew acted out that fantasy is truly horrifying.


I don't think we really have anything approaching this in "real life". We don't have evil robots bent on exterminating our race, while at the same time trying to mate with us to make babies. We aren't likely to come across this kind of situation in the near future...the closest we get to this in real life is sex with programable toasters...and although I'm sure there are people out there that enjoy that sort of thing, I really doubt that said toaster would have any information worth extracting. Also, inanimate objects cannot be raped. It can be argued that sex with furniture, machinery, and tableware is deviant behavior...and I never said that what's going on is "normal"...but it does not carry moral implications...unless, of course you're having sex with someone else's furniture. 

I'm surprised more people aren't bothered by the fact that the Admiral shot her first officer for disobeying an order (apparently he wasn't joking), and this person now runs the fleet.

war is hell.


----------



## TheSlyBear (Dec 26, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> They're "historical documents"


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

blarg said:


> I don't think we really have anything approaching this in "real life".


Well then, I have nothing to discuss with you about it, as philosophical or hypothetical discussions apparently carry no value with you. I'll just end by saying you still don't seem to get my point. Oh well.


----------



## Narkul (Nov 7, 2004)

If Sharon is pregnant by Helo then it only makes sense that she is far more than just a robot. She's got to be something VERY close to human to be able to conceive a child with a human. This pregnancy and the danger to a POSSIBLE human child alone should have been enough to qualify this as a rape and not just a deviant act. 

It seems to me that the Sharon model is taking the next cylon evolutionary step by exhibiting free will and procreating. The show says "they evolved", you know!

Perhaps a true emotional bond is required for a spylon to conceive. Sorry if this has all been discussed before.


----------



## Alvis (Jan 4, 2005)

Narkul said:


> If Sharon is pregnant by Helo then it only makes sense that she is far more than just a robot. She's got to be something VERY close to human to be able to conceive a child with a human. This pregnancy and the danger to a POSSIBLE human child alone should have been enough to qualify this as a rape and not just a deviant act.


I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.


----------



## Tangent (Feb 25, 2005)

Alvis said:


> I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.


Remember the episode where she was bleeding and was taken to sickbay so they could save her baby? I'm pretty sure that the doc would have noticed at that time if she wasn't really preggers...


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Alvis said:


> I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.


The doc mentioned the baby during the reporter episode...

On Edit: Damn, my first Smeek...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> The doc mentioned the baby during the reporter episode...
> 
> On Edit: Damn, my first Smeek...


It's not a Smeek if it's a simultaneous posting...you have to actively not read it for it to count.


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

so.....January, huh?

*twiddles thumbs*

*looks at clock*

is it January yet?


----------



## CTLesq (Jan 19, 2003)

blarg said:


> so.....January, huh?
> 
> *twiddles thumbs*
> 
> ...


Don't we both wish it was!


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> how do we know that this is not a documentary diabolically beamed to us in order to condition us to respond favorably to Galactica when it shows up in orbit?
> 
> We need to entertain that possibility!


 What is? 
Have you been chip-checked lately? 
You keep writing these long threads for a show that doesn't exist! 
-I mean my TiVo doesn't see any new episodes of this 'alleged' show!


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

5thcrewman said:


> What is?
> Have you been chip-checked lately?
> You keep writing these long threads for a show that doesn't exist!
> -I mean my TiVo doesn't see any new episodes of this 'alleged' show!


you mean like in BSG: 1984?


----------



## IndyJones1023 (Apr 1, 2002)

You mean, Galactica 1980?


----------



## JPinAZ (Jun 26, 2003)

One question I haven't see raised (maybe someone already asked it, but this is a long thread) is how the Pegasus crew knew that Gina was a cylon? Wasn't the fact of human looking cylons a closely guarded secret that was initially discovered after the attack on Caprica?


----------



## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

JPinAZ said:


> One question I haven't see raised (maybe someone already asked it, but this is a long thread) is how the Pegasus crew knew that Gina was a cylon? Wasn't the fact of human looking cylons a closely guarded secret that was initially discovered after the attack on Caprica?


it was actually cut because the episode ran long.



Spoiler



she somehow infiltrated the crew right before the blind jump, and ended up causing a confrontation with the Cylons that lead to the death of 800 crew members on the Pegasus...which is one of the reason noone on the ship has a problem treating her the way they do.



it may have been pushed back to part 2


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## ihatecable (Apr 16, 2003)

Narkul said:


> It seems to me that the Sharon model is taking the next cylon evolutionary step by exhibiting free will and procreating. The show says "they evolved", you know!


Six: "That model was always prone to problems" or something to that effect


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## ronsch (Sep 7, 2001)

Can you imagine what the post count will be on this thread by January!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

blarg said:


> a Cylon is a machine...no different than a screwdriver. If you use it to drive screws...its helpful, and if one day you get bored and decide to take a blowtorch to it just to see how cool it would look glowing red....you wouldn't feel bad about "mistreating it" would you?


anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?


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## aaronw (Apr 13, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> That might have been a subtle snubbing. He introduced himself as Captain Taylor, Starbuck replied "Kyra Thrace", and Cpt Taylor restated "_Captain_ Taylor". By repeating his military rank he is pointing out that Starbuck omitted hers, i.e. wasn't following military formalities.


Hmmm.. I guess at first thought they just cut it strangely, and he had just finished introducing himself to someone else, but yours works better, obviously after we learned more about how that crew operates.


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## aemornion1 (Oct 6, 2005)

HI i am new 
I think that starbuck will jump in to the cylon fleet and while getting "pretty pictures" video tape the raptor with apollo getting attacked and how stupid the pegases piolet is. she will then get spotted by the cylons jump back to galactica. The cylons will go into the fleet where adama and caine are about to go at it. They will put aside there differences Ice the cylons. But there will be an explosion and caine will die. oh no what will we do with out her. oh and the six2 baltar and all those other people will escape back to galactica. 

Also my idea on what the big scary ship is that it is either a colony ship or a giant weapon that will be used to colonise or destroy earth.


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

aemornion1 said:


> HI i am new
> I think that starbuck will jump in to the cylon fleet and while getting "pretty pictures" video tape the raptor with apollo getting attacked and how stupid the pegases piolet is. she will then get spotted by the cylons jump back to galactica. The cylons will go into the fleet where adama and caine are about to go at it. They will put aside there differences Ice the cylons. But there will be an explosion and caine will die. oh no what will we do with out her. oh and the six2 baltar and all those other people will escape back to galactica.
> 
> Also my idea on what the big scary ship is that it is either a colony ship or a giant weapon that will be used to colonise or destroy earth.


good idea, but totally wrong. (see spoilers posted above)


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

Anubys said:


> anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?


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## kctipton (Oct 3, 2005)

What was the "Special Message" that the Sci Fi Channel ran after that Pegasus episode? My recording cut off before hearing it.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

kctipton said:


> What was the "Special Message" that the Sci Fi Channel ran after that Pegasus episode? My recording cut off before hearing it.


_Do Not Try This At Home..._


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

5thcrewman said:


> _Do Not Try This At Home..._


You are a sick man.

I wish you could post more!


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## kctipton (Oct 3, 2005)

That wasn't helpful. Really, what was the message?


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## BiscuitSlayer (Feb 15, 2004)

wow


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

kctipton said:


> That wasn't helpful. Really, what was the message?


You didn't miss anything. IIRC it was a promo for the Sci-Fi Friday "season" premeires three months away. I remember being upset that it seemed to cut into the time where they would show a tease for BSG.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

Anubys said:


> anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?


Would you prefer he used the term "Hammer" or how about a "Nail" or I can't think of more


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

thought i would bump this so people could re read this if the wanted before the next show


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I plan on rewatching the episode before the premiere.

I'm ready. Is it January yet?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> I plan on rewatching the episode before the premiere.
> 
> I'm ready. Is it January yet?


argh...I have friends staying for the holiday and beyond...sci-fi friday doesn't start for me until after January 9th


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm ready. Is it January yet?


Almost there! Sci-Fi rebroadcast the a bunch of episodes the other day and my TiVo recorded them, of course. It was a nice surprise to find on my now playing list. I had almost forgotten about it, but it's my favorite show on TV right now (er - in two weeks).


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> Almost there! Sci-Fi rebroadcast the a bunch of episodes the other day and my TiVo recorded them, of course. It was a nice surprise to find on my now playing list. I had almost forgotten about it, but it's my favorite show on TV right now (er - in two weeks).


I only re-recorded this episode. The rest of this season is starting up on UHD. I'll be rewatching season 2 there.


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## lord-dogbert (Jan 31, 2005)

My wife is glad that the season is starting up again, she says that I haven't been the same since the cliff hanger


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

I would like someone to post in this thread when it comes on UHD so I can set it to record. I am not lazy, I will just forget to keep checking.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I would like someone to post in this thread when it comes on UHD so I can set it to record. I am not lazy, I will just forget to keep checking.


Go ahead and set it. Season 2 Part 1 starts the first week of January on UHD.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...

Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?

-Bobino


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> Go ahead and set it. Season 2 Part 1 starts the first week of January on UHD.


I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks.


Ah... sorry.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

bobino said:


> I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...
> 
> Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?
> 
> -Bobino


Uuhh... Well. I guess the best answer is to go ahead and read 

This was discussed - AT LENGTH - but no consensus was reached. IIRC, it basically came down two camps:

Those whose "suspension of disbelief" was ruined by the fiber-optic interface mentioned above; and those willing to accept it as a story device and maybe we'll get an explanation later.

EDIT: But I believe that discussion actually took place in the "Flight of the Phoenix" episode thread - the episode before "Pegasus"

Happy reading!


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

bobino said:


> I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...
> 
> Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?
> 
> -Bobino


go play the communtary from scifi.com he talked about this.

if you still have the episode on your tivo here is the com.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/209/bsg_ep209_FULL.mp3

tart playing each episode's file when the words "The Cylons Were Created By Man" appear on your TV screen. Beeps will indicate when to pause for commercial breaks.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

PJO1966 said:


> Ah... sorry.


I know we should get the worlds smallest violin to play him a song.


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

I know this is a bit pre-mature but.......When dose season 3 start?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

warrenevans said:


> I know this is a bit pre-mature but.......When dose season 3 start?


Presumable sometime in August. 
But more importantly; the 2nd half of season 2 starts up on Friday (Jan 6th).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jonathan_S said:


> Presumable sometime in August.


More like June or July (which is when every season of Stargate and Atlantis has started)...


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

I would like to know why the podcasts of the last two episodes aren't on the DVD. Unless they are hidden as an Easter Egg.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Charon2 said:


> I would like to know why the podcasts of the last two episodes aren't on the DVD. Unless they are hidden as an Easter Egg.


I didn't realize that they were putting them on the DVD. That's cool.

I listened to them at the time via podcast, and I remember a few were skipped, and Moore had just mentioned that they were busy or on vacation or a shooting hiatus or some mundane explanation. So they basically did them as they were convenient and there were no other time conflicts. I suppose they never went back to do the ones they missed.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

hefe said:


> I didn't realize that they were putting them on the DVD. That's cool.
> 
> I listened to them at the time via podcast, and I remember a few were skipped, and Moore had just mentioned that they were busy or on vacation or a shooting hiatus or some mundane explanation. So they basically did them as they were convenient and there were no other time conflicts. I suppose they never went back to do the ones they missed.


Right. They missed the podcast for Fragged, S2E3, but the rest had podcasts, and the DVDs include all of them except the last two episodes which you can get from the website, but odd that they didn't include them on the DVD since they have been there since those two aired.


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## blarg (Feb 5, 2005)

> Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?


well...like someone said, this HAS been discussed to death, but the real answer is that there IS really no answer. Its never been explained in the show. All we know is that the Cylons "LOOK" human to testing equipment, but ther spines glow (sometimes) they are able to communicate with other cylons, and can stick fiber into their arm, and get a signal.

so....either they're somehow able to mask the parts that aren't "human", or you just have to get over yourself and remember this is just a TV show.

personally I don't see how anyone can say that the cylons are "undetectable" and 100% human. this may be based simply on the fact that cylons human HAVEN'T been detected, not that anyone has tried and failed. Remember that until well into season 1 most of the BSG world had no idea that there WERE human cylons, so the statement that they're indistinguishable from humans may be based on the fact that they have managed to hide the special bits well nough to have avoided detection thus far. The only person that's really TRIED to detect them was Baltar...and we never really get a clear indication of 1) whether he was actually able to do it 2) whether he was NOT able to do it, and merely worked that into his psychosis by thinking he's protecting cylons 3) whether this was an easy thing or a difficult thing (he does take a lot of time to develop it, but that could be just because he's crazy, stalling, or whatever)....

so at this point, we really don't know. it may be eventually explained. it may not leaving many dorky people like ourselves to spend many hours trying to explain plot holes in a TV show rather than just saying "hey, its a plot hole...we don't HAVE to justify it for the writers if they can't be bothered to do it themselves. They get paid to do this...we don't."


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## Crrink (Sep 3, 2002)

NoThru22 said:


> I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks.


My guide says SciFi is playing it on Jan 5th at 5pm, to be followed by the special that's available on iTunes.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Charon2 said:


> Right. They missed the podcast for Fragged, S2E3, but the rest had podcasts, and the DVDs include all of them except the last two episodes which you can get from the website, but odd that they didn't include them on the DVD since they have been there since those two aired.


Well, the DVD might well have been in production before those episodes aired, but were "in the can." So they might not have had time to get the commentary on those episodes on the set. I'm waiting for the complete season 2 set before I buy anything.


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